# Let's talk about Tan Sau



## Marnetmar (Dec 20, 2017)

When you hear the word "Tan Sau," what comes to mind? How do you like to use it? Does your tan sau form a straight line with your forearm, or is it parallel to the ground? Do you keep a bend in your elbow? Do you use it to cover your head?


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## KPM (Dec 20, 2017)

In my understanding....... "Tan" means "to spread."  So it engages and the deflects energy away.  It is not a hard block or a barrier.  So I wouldn't use it to cover my head.  I don't do it parallel to the ground because how are you going to deflect or "spread" something if it can just slide under your arm?  There has to be some angling off of the horizontal for it to work. This may only be 15 degrees, or it might be close to 80 degrees as Phil is showing in the pic above.  It depends on the circumstance.  It typically deflects or "spreads" outward.  But I think it can deflect inward as well.  Sometimes people give this its own name....an "upper Gan Sau" or "high Gan Sau"....I've seen some consider it a "Jum Sau" even though it doesn't always have a downward pressing aspect. 

The "Tan Sau shape" can also "swallow" or absorb as it deflects.   I know in Chu Sau Lei WCK they still call this a "Tan Sau".   In Pin Sun Wing Chun we call this a "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand" and it is featured in several of our San Sik.   It is just the "yin" to the typical Tan Sau's "yang."  It withdraws back rather than going forward.  Some Wing Chun lineages don't seem to have this at all.  Pin Sun uses it just as much as the typical Tan Sau.


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## Cephalopod (Dec 20, 2017)

KPM said:


> I don't do it parallel to the ground because how are you going to deflect or "spread" something if it can just slide under your arm?  There has to be some angling off of the horizontal for it to work.


I think Marnetmar was referring to the angle of the hand, not of the forearm.

Of the 4 pics, I would say that the 2nd is the optimal angle (imagine that...I heard dude had pretty good wing chun!). It covers good ground vertically, is resistant to collapsing and the angle between forearm and upper arm will remain unchanged as it is rolled into bong sau.



KPM said:


> But I think it can deflect inward as well.  Sometimes people give this its own name....an "upper Gan Sau" or "high Gan Sau"....I've seen some consider it a "Jum Sau" even though it doesn't always have a downward pressing aspect.



I'd say anything on the inside of the arm, such as gan sau, falls more within the fuk sau family of concepts, rather than the tan sau family. That being said, the position is very tan-like, the intention is subtly different.



KPM said:


> The "Tan Sau shape" can also "swallow" or absorb as it deflects.   I know in Chu Sau Lei WCK they still call this a "Tan Sau".   In Pin Sun Wing Chun we call this a "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand" and it is featured in several of our San Sik.   It is just the "yin" to the typical Tan Sau's "yang."  It withdraws back rather than going forward.  Some Wing Chun lineages don't seem to have this at all.  Pin Sun uses it just as much as the typical Tan Sau.



Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains.


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## KPM (Dec 20, 2017)

*I'd say anything on the inside of the arm, such as gan sau, falls more within the fuk sau family of concepts, rather than the tan sau family. That being said, the position is very tan-like, the intention is subtly different.*


---You can "spread" or deflect in any direction....outward or inward.  "Fook" means "subdue."  It covers or controls something, it doesn't "spread."  I've never quite held with the whole "3 families of hand techniques....Tan, Bong, & Fook"  approach, even when I was doing Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun WCK doesn't think of that way.


*Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains*

----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow."  That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and "sucks things in" at least as much as it "pushes things away."  Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."


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## wckf92 (Dec 21, 2017)

KPM said:


> ----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow."  That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and "sucks things in" at least as much as it "pushes things away."  Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."



I am YM WC trained and was taught it; but I think KPM is correct...it's not very prevalent. I didn't know it had a name until reading forums like these.


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## paitingman (Dec 21, 2017)

recently saw an interesting video from Jerry Yeung. thought this would be a good place to throw it up.
 In the first half of the video, he talks about basic tan concepts, training, and use.


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## DanT (Dec 21, 2017)

Tan = to spread as the punch is deflected using not only one point on your arm, but rather the force spreads down 2-3 inches along your arm as your arm moves forward. This means that the incoming blow does not impact your arm at a sole point, but rather its impact is spread over 2-3 inches via pushing the arm forward at the elbow and shoulder. This is what allows you to deflect powerful blows.


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## Bkouba (Dec 21, 2017)

Tan sau is king! Woks well against western boxing style hooks. Absorb the hook, spread their hand just enough to counter off the same hand, while your other hand is still blocking. My go to against someone unloading a series of hooks. If your saw the recent UFC with RDA vs Lawler. RDA was unloading on lawler up against the fence, Lawler was moving well, rolling with the shots. But, I was screaming at him to use tan sau to open RDA up and counter - easier said than done though against a beast like RDA!


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## geezer (Dec 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> *Our training uses this but I would replace the "withdraws back" by "is driven back". Forward intention always remains*
> 
> ----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow."  That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and *"sucks things in"* at least as much as it "pushes things away."  Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."



This is also true of the WT/VT I train. If you go back to the old kung-fu saying, _Fou, chum, tun, tou_ or _Float, sink, swallow, spit, --_rising and sinking of the body _is_ employed, but is minimized and hardly visible. Lower level students are not even aware of these movements. And in my branch, we try to maintain forward intent all the time, so we avoid withdrawing. inward-pulling or "swallowing" movements.

So KPM, am I OK in quoting you to say that, unlike what I train, your PS Wing Chun _sucks?_ !!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2017)

The WC Tan Shou is very similar to the XingYi Zuan Chuan. The difference is palm vs. fist.






This WC move is also very similar to the XingYi dragon.


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## Cephalopod (Dec 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> ----Yeah, like I said before, most Ip Man Wing Chun does not use the concept of "Tun" or "swallow."  That's one of the distinctive differences between Pin Sun and Ip Man WCK.  Pin Sun uses a deeper pivot and "sucks things in" at least as much as it "pushes things away."  Ip Man WCK mostly "pushes things away."





geezer said:


> This is also true of the WT/VT I train...
> ...And in my branch, we try to maintain forward intent all the time, so we avoid withdrawing. inward-pulling or "swallowing" movements.



Of course, every rule is made to be broken...sometimes.
(and I can't speak for YMWC, only the Jiu Wan step-sister style that I practice)

If my tan encounters an arm that is truly stiff, I can (sometimes) use the crook behind my thumb to draw the opponent onto his toes before launching a counter-offensive.
But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.

Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.


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## KPM (Dec 22, 2017)

geezer said:


> So KPM, am I OK in quoting you to say that, unlike what I train, your PS Wing Chun _sucks?_ !!!



Sucks and spits!!!   

 I'm working on an essay and will probably do a youtube clip about the "Sei Ging" or "4 energies" (Rise, Sink, Swallow, Spit) and how Wing Chun (at least Pin Sun Wing Chun) adds two more to make it "Luk Ging" or "6 energies."  The two additional ones being "rotate in" and "rotate out."


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## KPM (Dec 22, 2017)

*If my tan encounters an arm that is truly stiff, I can (sometimes) use the crook behind my thumb to draw the opponent onto his toes before launching a counter-offensive.
But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.

Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.*

----In contrast, here is an example of something we might do in Pin Sun Wing Chun.   Imagine standing facing an opponent both with left arms extended touching at the back of the wrist.  If the opponent suddenly shoots the hand forward as a punch, the typical Ip Man Wing Chun approach might be to pivot and send the left hand forward as a Tan Sau to deflect the punch as you do your own punch over his arm.  You would probably even step into the opponent's center while doing this.  This is using forward pressure to presses the opponent to off-balance him.  Pin Sun Wing Chun may do this at times as well.  But........in Pin Sun Wing Chun we may be just as likely to let the opponent's hand shoot forward and just guide it in and deflect it slightly outward with a withdrawing Tun Sau as we do a deeper pivot and slam him with a punch or palm strike below his punching arm.   There is much less "force to force" involved here.  We aren't "pushing" the punch away with a Tan Sau, we are "sucking" the punch in with a Tun Sau.  This can off-balance the opponent right into the strike.  So the attitude in Ip Man Wing Chun is somewhat....forward pressure....take their space...put them back on their heels.   While the attitude in Pin Sun Wing Chun is more....be evasive....get the angle...pull them in....put them up on their toes.


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## Cephalopod (Dec 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> *If my tan encounters an arm that is truly stiff, I can (sometimes) use the crook behind my thumb to draw the opponent onto his toes before launching a counter-offensive.
> But I would rarely try that with a more skilled (well-balanced) opponent who could get behind my movement and collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.
> 
> Generally, when the fists start flying, I'm safer if all my movements have some residual forward intention and if the contact point moves closer to my body it's because the opponent's force drove it there.*
> ...



Actually, my response would be very close to what you describe as the Pin Sun way, but with a subtle distinction. The 'withdrawing' effect is powered by his movement, not my own. By wanting to go forward but not forcing the issue, my tan sau is driven backward. If you like, the withdrawing movement is passive not active. It is a subtle difference, but to us a very important one.
Coupling that 'withdrawl' with a very slight rotation, his power will bypass my center, as you describe. Thier own commitment of power will put them on thier toes.


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## geezer (Dec 22, 2017)

What we strive to do (coming out of "WT") is to maintain forward intent, but in a very light and yielding way so we can seem to give way and draw-in an aggressive attacker without actually pulling him into us. After all, pulling your opponent in has certain liabilities.

...Perhaps it's kind of a middle path between always sending force aggressively outward and pulling your opponent in?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2017)

KPM said:


> *collapse my tan sau if I draw it inward.*


When you pull your opponent into you, your opponent will have 3 options:

1. Resist against you,
2. Yield into you,
3. Yield into you but change into a 90 degree angle.

IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

When I pull my opponent, I like to move myself out of the way. My opponent will be pulled into the emptiness instead.


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## wckf92 (Dec 22, 2017)

pulling also enhances power generation for strikes. 
Yin and Yang energies work together to amplify ones reach and striking power/speed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 22, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> pulling also enhances power generation for strikes.
> Yin and Yang energies work together to amplify ones reach and striking power/speed.


Agree! 

A + B > A 

A punch should not be just a punch. A punch should be a punch followed by a pull.

Here is an example.


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## Martial D (Dec 22, 2017)

Marnetmar said:


> When you hear the word "Tan Sau," what comes to mind? How do you like to use it? Does your tan sau form a straight line with your forearm, or is it parallel to the ground? Do you keep a bend in your elbow? Do you use it to cover your head?



Already a lot of theorycrafting in this thread so I'll leave that out. I'll tell you how it works for me and an example of when I might use it.

Elbow and wrist aligned in tight to center, palm up like you are holding a plate. 

Standing grappling, at grabby punchy range. Say he gets his right free and tries a hockey punch, I just turn my left over into a tan to force it outside(which is very quick and instinctive to do anyway)  and either naturally catch the head that is moving toward me or throw some sort of strike with the tan hand.


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## paitingman (Dec 22, 2017)

In the video I posted earlier Jerry Yeung talked about between the shoulders.

Tan is used to spread energy and deflect attacks coming in. To me, this really does seem to be not limited, but most effective against attack where your opponents striking elbow is between your shoulders. I think there's better techniques for attacks coming from outside your center of mass. You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.


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## KPM (Dec 23, 2017)

paitingman said:


> In the video I posted earlier Jerry Yeung talked about between the shoulders.
> 
> Tan is used to spread energy and deflect attacks coming in. To me, this really does seem to be not limited, but most effective against attack where your opponents striking elbow is between your shoulders. I think there's better techniques for attacks coming from outside your center of mass. You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.



Yes, I agree.  From a anatomy/biomechanics standpoint a Tan is not a strong enough structure to try and use as a force on force block....like stopping a wide swinging punch or hook.  As you point out, there is no "spreading" involved when used that way.  I would use a Lan instead.  Lan means "obstruct."   So one of Lan's uses is as a block or obstruction.  And Lan does not have to always be parallel to the ground as people do it in their Chum Kiu form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 23, 2017)

paitingman said:


> You can use tan to stop a hook, but it's just that. There's no "spreading" a decent hook. But not everyone goes strictly by the "spread" definition.


You can use right Tan Shou to block a hook from your left if you add in body rotation to your left. But this is just a hard block which is too conservative of thinking. IMO, instead of thinking about to block a punch, it's better to think about to extend your left Tan Shou between your opponent's head and his right arm.

If a hook comes from the west direction, a northwest Tan Shou should be able to deflect that hook without body rotation. You other hand should be able to punch on your opponent's face at the same time. In other words, your opponent punches you with a right hook. You counter with a left Tan Shou and right punch.

Tan Shou is just a block for defense. A block is just to lift up the curtain. Your body then walk under that curtain. When your opponent punch you, whether you are thinking about only defense, or you are thinking about counter attack that will make your Tan Shou to be functioned in different ways.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 23, 2017)

KPM said:


> a Tan is not a strong enough structure to try and use as a force on force block....


If you combine left Tan and right Tan into one, it will be more than strong enough. If your other hand is not punching, why not use both Tan Shou? Even if you use both Tan Shou, you only block with your arms, your fist can still punch at that moment.


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## Martial D (Dec 23, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you combine left Tan and right Tan into one, it will be more than strong enough.


If elbow and wrist are aligned on center with the angle of the elbow obtuse rather than acute(more extended) it is very hard to collapse with any amount of striking force, even with a single tan.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 23, 2017)

Martial D said:


> If elbow and wrist are aligned on center with the angle of the elbow obtuse rather than acute(more extended) it is very hard to collapse with any amount of striking force, even with a single tan.


The striking force can come from your forward movement by using your body mass instead of using your arm strength.

If you use double Tan, your elbow doesn't have to be at your center. Your left Tan elbow can be in front of your left chest. Your right Tan elbow can be in front of your right chest. You can always extend your arm during the contact and move back afterward if needed.

The single Tan is to use a line to protect your center (which is weaker). The double Tan is to use a wedge to protect your center (which is stronger).


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## Martial D (Dec 23, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The striking force can come from your forward movement by using your body mass instead of using your arm strength.
> 
> If you use double Tan, your elbow doesn't have to be at your center. Your left Tan elbow can be in front of your left chest. Your right Tan elbow can be in front of your right chest. You can always extend your arm during the contact and move back afterward if needed.
> 
> The single Tan is to use a line to protect your center (which is weaker). The double Tan is to use a wedge to protect your center (which is stronger).



A single tan sau aligned to center is stronger than two hands in similar positions off center. It's a matter of structure. If the elbow is out, it is very easy to collapse. Granted, it will cover more area if you use two hands, but if you are trying to cover it is better to have the elbows tucked into the body than extended, ala boxing.

Try it. bring your elbow to your center line and extend it so your arm is at a 60-80 degree angle at the elbow, with your wrist also aligned to center, palm up. No amount of force will collapse that, you will be uprooted at the feet before it collapses.


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## wckf92 (Dec 23, 2017)

I've kind of always thought of Tan as a wedge. Like a door wedge. 
A wedge can wedge something open; or it could wedge something closed. 
It could also be firmly emplaced with proper structure and when something runs into it (ie like a round attack) it would hold fast.
Just my pre-holiday .02


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

Martial D said:


> If the elbow is out, it is very easy to collapse.


The SC cucumber vine, WC Bong Shou, and Taiji Ji, the elbow are all out. Never heard about any structure issue.


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## Martial D (Dec 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The SC cucumber vine, WC Bong Shou, and Taiji Ji, the elbow are all out. Never heard about any structure issue.


Sure, but none of that has anything to do with the price of tea in China.


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## obi_juan_salami (Dec 24, 2017)

Tan sau is used to strike the opponents wrist and can be used against hook coming up to the jaw. 

Watch at 8:25


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## Danny T (Dec 24, 2017)

When looking at Tan Sao as a counter to when on the inside of a hook punch...can it work? Yes it can...depending upon the range and how tight the hook. Then again depending on range and how tight the hook is the answer is no...it can be a great way to get knocked out. So, the next question...is there another action or other actions that are better suited, more effective, and more efficient than tan sao? Yes there are, so I strongly suggest you work your tan san vs a good boxer, a nak muay, or even someone who is aggressively attempting to punch you in a live, heavy sparring situation when you don't know when or how the other person is going to throw punches. See how well tan works as well as how the immediate following actions work out.


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## KPM (Dec 24, 2017)

Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it?  The concept behind Tan is "to spread."  If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???

Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us.  But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand."  So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block?  Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?


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## wckf92 (Dec 24, 2017)

KPM said:


> Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it?  The concept behind Tan is "to spread."  If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???
> 
> Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us.  But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand."  So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block?  Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?



For me, it's more about the shape. But, interesting point about the native speaker.


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## Danny T (Dec 24, 2017)

Tan Sao is a structure or particular position. How that structure is to be applied is conceptual. There are also different ways one can move into the tan structure as well.


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## wckf92 (Dec 24, 2017)

to me, I can have a Tan shape, or a Bong shape, or whatever...yet use them with a yielding energy...or an explosive / ballistic energy.


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## yak sao (Dec 24, 2017)

KPM said:


> Is the technique known by the shape, or the concept behind it?  The concept behind Tan is "to spread."  If you are using it as a block and not "spreading" anything, but the shape is still the typical palm up position, is it still a "Tan"???
> 
> Since we are not Cantonese speakers, labeling it a "Tan" seems somewhat abstract and doesn't really have much meaning for us.  But a native speaker of a generation ago would think of this technique as literally "spreading hand."  So would it occur to him to use a "spreading hand" as a block?  Wouldn't it be more likely his brain would see the need for a block and do an "obstructing hand" instead?



I've been beating this drum for a couple of decades.
While I acknowledge and respect WC's heritage,
 I continue to think we, as non Cantonese speakers, do ourselves a huge disservice by using and teaching terms we don't fully understand.
If we were a technique based art, then fine, slather on all the Cantonese terms you want.
But if we truly consider ourselves to be concept based,  it makes more sense to use terms from our own language so that we better comprehend.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

If you use fist instead of palm, The WC Tan Shou can be a boxing uppercut.


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## Danny T (Dec 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you use fist instead of palm, The WC Tan Shou can be a boxing uppercut.


Some of the movement may be quite similar but the structure of the wrist and hand in an uppercut punch is different from the Tan Sao. If the structure is different would it still be Tan Sao?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Some of the movement may be quite similar but the structure of the wrist and hand in an uppercut punch is different from the Tan Sao. If the structure is different would it still be Tan Sao?


The goal is important. The path can be modified. If you want the WC to have uppercut, that's where you should look.

For example

- MT flying knee can be jumping kick without the kick.
- TKD spin hook kick can be floor sweep but higher.
- Boxing uppercut can be WC Tan Shou by using fist.
- ...

Which is more important? To use Tan Shou as

- uppercut (an offense tool),
- spread (a defense tool)?


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## yak sao (Dec 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The goal is important. The path can be modified. If you want the WC to have uppercut, that's where you should look.
> 
> For example
> 
> ...



You always say that WC doesn't have an uppercut or hook punch, but it does. The uppercut, which we refer to as a lifting punch is found in Chum Kiu. The hook punch is in Biu Tze but also the mechanics of it can be found in both SNT and CK.


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## Danny T (Dec 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The goal is important. The path can be modified. If you want the WC to have uppercut, that's where you should look.
> 
> For example
> 
> ...


I understanding your premise however, you are of the opinion it doesn't matter if the structure is different it is still tan sao, yes?
A palm strike would be more in line of the tan structure than an upper cut (chou kuen is an uppercut)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

Danny T said:


> you are of the opinion it doesn't matter if the structure is different it is still tan sao, yes?


This guy may not know any WC. But he is doing one Bong Shou application - use your arm to raise your opponent's arm. He may take a different path to reach to the same goal that's different from the WC path. As long as you can solve your problem that all it matters.

People may have different attitude.

1. I don't do this way.
2. I didn't know I could do this way.

IMO, 2 > 1


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

yak sao said:


> You always say that WC doesn't have an uppercut or hook punch, but it does.


If you (general YOU) know how to do Tan Shou but you don't know how to do uppercut, you should find a bean curt, smash it on your head, and kill yourself.


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## Danny T (Dec 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This guy may not know any WC. But he is doing one Bong Shou application - use your arm to raise your opponent's arm. He may take a different path to reach to the same goal that's different from the WC path. As long as you can solve your problem that all it matters.
> 
> People may have different attitude.
> 
> ...


Some may refer to what you are referring to in the video as bong sao however in the wing chun I know that would not be considered such...yes the arm is bent and twisted with the wrist below the elbow but there are more aspects that are incorrect than that are correct for it to be bong sao in the wing chun I am familiar with.

Not arguing different paths. If it works for someone great...but that doesn't make it bong sao.


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## KPM (Dec 24, 2017)

Again, if we think like a native speaker of Cantonese doing Wing Chun a generation ago, "Bong Sau" is named for the shape, not the concept.  He would be thinking and saying "wing arm."  So anything that had that shape....like a wing...would be "Bong Sau" regardless of how you were using it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 24, 2017)

KPM said:


> So anything that had that shape....like a wing...would be "Bong Sau" regardless of how you were using it.


What kind of punch, kick, lock, throw do you think the WC system contain?

Some MA systems only teach offense skill during the 1st or even the 2nd year. This will force the students to develop the spirit of attack, attack, and still attack. I think that's a good approach.


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