# 45 Degree kick



## andyjeffries (May 24, 2011)

I've heard talk about students coming over to a new club and the new club has to untrain them from performing 45 degree kicks (Beet-chagi).  At the club I train at we do 45 degree kicks, but I'm soon starting my own club.  I also practice doing more round-kick* style as I know it's more modern and I understand the reasoning behind not doing 45 degree kicks (elbows, more power).  However, before I drop them from my newly created syllabus I wanted to ask the group:

Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?

When I do a 90 degree turning kick (round kick to the body) I tend not to turn my supporting foot all the way to face the rear (but do when kicking to the head).  Is this how people generally do it?

* I hate the term roundhouse kick - probably because that was always the term Karate used near where I live and it was always completely different to Taekwondo's turning kick.  It's probably a hang-up I can lose now, but I'm used to hating the term ;-)


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 24, 2011)

Roundhouse means you are kicking around something. What's to hate?
Sean


----------



## granfire (May 24, 2011)

45/90 degrees?


(90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)

I never paid much attention to the degrees of kicking:
Front leg, back leg, and spinning/turning, never past a full rotation.


But you should take care of that round kick pivot leg. I do believe - or so I have been taught - it's the proper mechanics that might help prevent injury down the road. Not to mention it telegraphs how high you are going to kick.


----------



## andyjeffries (May 24, 2011)

granfire said:


> 45/90 degrees?
> 
> (90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)



It refers to the angle from knee to shin from vertical when the knee is forward and chambered (just the split second before the extension in to the kick).



granfire said:


> I never paid much attention to the degrees of kicking:
> Front leg, back leg, and spinning/turning, never past a full rotation.
> 
> But you should take care of that round kick pivot leg. I do believe - or so I have been taught - it's the proper mechanics that might help prevent injury down the road. Not to mention it telegraphs how high you are going to kick.



We only turn the standing foot at the last split second of extension anyway - up until that moment it's in the same position as a body section kick.  I can't see anything wrong with having the foot pointed to the side when kicking to the body, it's no worse than standing with your feet apart, both feet facing forward so the angle between your legs is 90-110 degrees.  Quite comfortable


----------



## Earl Weiss (May 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> * I hate the term roundhouse kick - probably because that was always the term Karate used near where I live and it was always completely different to Taekwondo's turning kick. It's probably a hang-up I can lose now, but I'm used to hating the term ;-)


 
KArate may have used it but they got it from early boxing. When a boxer / fighter has their guard / hands up that was referred to as "The house" . A punch that hooked around the guard to the side of the head went "Around the House" =  " 'Round house".

The turning / roundhouse kick did the same.  Bill Wallace kicked me in the head several times. Took me a while to figure out his mastery in part was a foot position with the ankle bent 90 degrees instead of straight, allowing it to go around the guard and make contact with the toes of the boot.


----------



## ATC (May 24, 2011)

Not sure why anyone would unteach the 45 degree kick, it is just another kick to use when needed. Both kicks have their place and should be used in their own situations.

The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick.

Just my take on the half turn vs. full turn. They are just two different kicks to me.


----------



## Manny (May 24, 2011)

I staill teach and use the peet-chagui, this is a fast kick aimed to the abdomen or floating ribs, even the kidney area in self defense situation or even to the legs in self defense situacion as a low kick, the full roundhouse kick (dollyo-chagui) needs more tha 45º to be performed well to the head.

The peet-chagui and the dolyo-chagui are a little similar as they are roud/roundhouse kicks however the way to send them and the areas areas of impact are not the same.

One is faster the other is deeper.

Manny


----------



## puunui (May 24, 2011)

ATC said:


> Not sure why anyone would unteach the 45 degree kick, it is just another kick to use when needed. Both kicks have their place and should be used in their own situations.



If you learn the 45 first, then it is very difficult to do a proper roundhouse. It is not so much unlearning as the 45 creating a bad habit when trying to do a hip turn roundhouse. If you learn a proper roundhouse first, then the 45 is no problem. 




ATC said:


> The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick.



I disagree. I think doing the 45 on a double is probably the worst time to do it. On a double kick, the first kicks should actually be harder than the second kick. The point of double, at least originally, was to check your opponent and stun him momentarily so you can set up the second scoring kick. You want the first kick to be hard to prevent or impede a counter hook or back kick. So many times I see players do a light first kick and they get immediately countered with a quick back kick or jump back kick. Better to do the first kick hard on a double, or just kick hard to the back side and then follow with a roundhouse with the other leg if they move back. 

This is over and above the argument that 45 kick doesn't score on LaJust, allegedly because the foot sensors don't make good contact with the hogu sensors.


----------



## ATC (May 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> I disagree. I think doing the 45 on a double is probably the worst time to do it. On a double kick, the first kicks should actually be harder than the second kick.


Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.


----------



## puunui (May 24, 2011)

ATC said:


> Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.




Who taught that to your Sabums? You can do it that way, many people do, but it does increase the probability of a quick back kick or spin hook kick counter dramatically. As long as you are aware of that and accept that. The whole point of double kick being developed in the first place back in the early/mid 80's was to take that probability away, especially from a retreating opponent.


----------



## puunui (May 24, 2011)

Manny said:


> The peet-chagui and the dolyo-chagui are a little similar as they are roud/roundhouse kicks however the way to send them and the areas areas of impact are not the same. One is faster the other is deeper.



Peet Chagi is not faster than a full roundhouse, although it may seem that way. If anything, the roundhouse kick is faster.


----------



## puunui (May 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?



No. The only time it comes up is to the face, when doing drills on the inside, or if your opponent is bent over for some reason. But you don't need to practice the kick for those situations, because it will naturally come out, especially if you grew up on 45 kicks. 45 degree peet chagi is the absolute hardest bad habit to break. Once that's ingrained, you have to work real hard to overcome it.


----------



## Manny (May 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> Peet Chagi is not faster than a full roundhouse, although it may seem that way. If anything, the roundhouse kick is faster.



FOR ME peet chagui is a faster kick than the full roundhose kick to the head, FOR YOU not. You are faster with the full roundhouse to the head, good for you!!! For me and for some other martial arts budies who are competitors it's easier to score with a peetchagui than with a dolyo chagui to the head.

Thank you.

Manny


----------



## Manny (May 24, 2011)

ATC said:


> The 45 or half turn kick is a great setup kick. It is also use when doing a double as the first kick cannot be a full turn or your double will be slow and sloppy. The second kick in the double kick is the full turn of the kick as first kick is the setup for the second kick



We do use the 45º kick as a set up  for doing double kicks too.

Manny


----------



## puunui (May 24, 2011)

Manny said:


> FOR ME peet chagui is a faster kick than the full roundhose kick to the head, FOR YOU not. You are faster with the full roundhouse to the head, good for you!!! For me and for some other martial arts budies who are competitors it's easier to score with a peetchagui than with a dolyo chagui to the head.




To the head? That isn't what you said before. You said you aim the peet chagi at the abdomen or floating ribs or even the kidney area or even to the legs in self defense.



Manny said:


> I staill teach and use the peet-chagui, this is a fast kick aimed to the  abdomen or floating ribs, even the kidney area in self defense  situation or even to the legs in self defense situacion as a low kick,  the full roundhouse kick (dollyo-chagui) needs more tha 45º to be  performed well to the head.


----------



## armortkd (May 24, 2011)

ATC said:


> Not how I was taught or how we teach it. For us the first kick is a 60 to 70% power 45 (low to the butt or hip area) then a rebound and full turn into the second kick at 100% power. As we teach the first kick is nothing but a distration. Now there are time when you do put the first kick at the same level but the same 70/100 and trun techniques still apply. Just how it is taught at our dojang and by our Sabum's.


 I follow that same method as you Andrew! Double Kick has evolved from it's beginnings. 1985 Worlds saw a Han Jae-Koo kicking everyone with Double Kick. Going 100% on the 1st kick doesn't make sense since you have to roll your hips with the level of athletes these days. The "set up" with the 1st kick is to hit kidney side so the opponent doesn't likely be triggered to do a Back Kick or Spin Hook Kick. When players get lazy and a skip-up motion, that's when the opponent will read it and response with a Back Kick.


----------



## PooterMan (May 24, 2011)

I'm not sure about the whole 45 degree kick....I was always taught a roundhouse was hip rolled over, foot at 90 degree angle.  If I did a roundhouse at a 45 angle I'd get yelled at ;-)
On a double kick I can see the first kick being a distraction (say 40percent power) to get the person to drop their hand/elbow, then following with a full force true roundhouse to the head. 
I could see 45 degrees the other way (inside to out) as a bit cha ki. But even those are hard on my old knees.  Mine are more like 5 degrees, 6 if I'm stretched out. :deadhorse


----------



## puunui (May 25, 2011)

armortkd said:


> I follow that same method as you Andrew! Double Kick has evolved from it's beginnings. 1985 Worlds saw a Han Jae-Koo kicking everyone with Double Kick.



He actually started doing that at 1983 Worlds. 



armortkd said:


> Going 100% on the 1st kick doesn't make sense since you have to roll your hips with the level of athletes these days.



It doesn't make sense if you are used to kicking the 45 and not the full hip turn roundhouse. Kicking 45 to the backside is how most people injure their insteps on their opponent's elbow. 




armortkd said:


> The "set up" with the 1st kick is to hit kidney side so the opponent doesn't likely be triggered to do a Back Kick or Spin Hook Kick.



Exactly, but if you hit the first kick soft, then all it does is trigger the back kick response. Back Kick or spin hook counter to double is a common hogu drill, something elite athletes train for. It is or should be as common a hogu drill as back kick counter to roundhouse to the front side.


----------



## d1jinx (May 25, 2011)

back when people started doing the 45 degree kick (or atleast when I was introduced to it 89-ish), we just called it a lazy-mans roundhouse.  a no-power half-*** attempt of a roundhouse.

now it seems pretty common.  not sure if its a lack of teaching proper technique, or an attempt to improve speed.

i tend to think the first, but hey, its great for slap kicking.....


----------



## Manny (May 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> To the head? That isn't what you said before. You said you aim the peet chagi at the abdomen or floating ribs or even the kidney area or even to the legs in self defense.



OK I didn't wrote to the HEAD, however FOR ME a peet-chagui to the mid area is faster than full roundhose (dollyo-chagui) to the mid area.... this is FOR ME and some other folks that I know... FOR YOU IS NOT and I am glad you can do it...

Peace.

Manny


----------



## ATC (May 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> It doesn't make sense if you are used to kicking the 45 and not the full hip turn roundhouse. Kicking 45 to the backside is how most people injure their insteps on their opponent's elbow.


That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.



> Exactly, but if you hit the first kick soft, then all it does is trigger the back kick response. Back Kick or spin hook counter to double is a common hogu drill, something elite athletes train for. It is or should be as common a hogu drill as back kick counter to roundhouse to the front side.


The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.

Trust me it works and works well the way the kick has evolved. Plus you can also take the second kick to the face.

Also if you do start the double kick to the front side and you see the back kick coming you simply use the second kick to the back side as a push to the back side hip and watch your opponent go flying backwards and spinning down to the ground.

Look at the clip of my son in my sig and at the *18 second mark* of the clip you will see my son do a single kick followup with a double. The double starts to the back side and finished up to the front side. He actually scored to the back side with the double, not the front, but he did the kick correctly (by our teachings). There is no way to back kick the double when started to the back side of your opponent. Well I should not say no way, as someone with great timing can score with any kick at any time to anywhere, but it does make it more difficult.


----------



## armortkd (May 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> He actually started doing that at 1983 Worlds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was nailing everyone in 1985 and in 1983 his doubles weren't as good. I said on my post that I agreed with Andrew. Kicking kidney-side on the opponent's hip/thigh shuts off the Back Kicks since most are trapping or countering off-the-line kicks. The mistake that players make with getting countered by the Back Kick is too long distance, not kicking the hip/thigh, and checking.


----------



## armortkd (May 25, 2011)

ATC said:


> That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.
> 
> The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.
> 
> ...


That's right on!!! Slipping the Double Kick after an inital kick is what most elite players do. Using a lead leg Ax Kick with a direct Ap Bal motion is a great counter for closed stance Double Kick.


----------



## puunui (May 25, 2011)

ATC said:


> That is why we aim for the hip or butt, not the back. They won't get the elbow down that low, and if they do they will be bending and the second kick will be to the face and will be a KO.



We try not to kick below the belt because of the kyong go factor. The IRs will call you on it at WTF International Events and they don't the opposing coach will protest and do video review. But you can get away with it maybe at national or local events. 




ATC said:


> The double is to fast and because your first kick is to the back side (the side the backkick would be coming from) almost everyone would try a hujin or slide back. This still won't work as the rebound makes the second kick to fast and you are up a bit and your leg is above theirs so they can't kick you.



Usually back kick comes out if you are known to throw double kick in certain situations and they practice to set you up for it. Or if you tag the guy with the double kick and he does a quick jump back kick counter. I'm sure you know the situation that I am talking about. 




ATC said:


> Trust me it works and works well the way the kick has evolved. Plus you can also take the second kick to the face.



I'm sure it works, especially in lower level competition. My only point is that it increases the chance of a back kick counter if you don't hit the first kick hard. If that isn't an issue for you or your player, or if you are accepting of that probability, then ok. That is the "art" of Taekwondo competition, everyone does it differently and there is no correct answer. 




ATC said:


> Also if you do start the double kick to the front side and you see the back kick coming you simply use the second kick to the back side as a push to the back side hip and watch your opponent go flying backwards and spinning down to the ground.



The only time I would double to the front side first is if the second kick were to the head, over their shoulder. But that is risky because of the padduh chagi counter issue. In that situation, it might be better to do a triple, so you end in closed stance. 




ATC said:


> There is no way to back kick the double when started to the back side of your opponent.



The two times back kick comes up on double is in between the first and second kick, and after the second kick.


----------



## armortkd (May 25, 2011)

Really? IRs calling kyongos for the inital kick to the thigh/hip/butt on Double Kick! LMAO!!! My stepfather coached us this way, and he told us that at an IR refresher that they were taught the concept of "elevation of action". Using Doubles, Triples, and Cut (Bullet) into Back/Spin Hook Kicks.....IRs allowed players to hit the upper thigh/butt/hip if there was no intent to injure and the focus was the finishing kick.

Mark Lopez is a rare elite athlete who can hit Doubles, Fast (Lead Leg) Doubles, and Triples all on the body. Even he hits below the hogu. One cool instance is when he throw a Triple Kick and all three scored to the body on LaJust!!!


----------



## puunui (May 25, 2011)

armortkd said:


> Really? IRs calling kyongos for the inital kick to the thigh/hip/butt on Double Kick! LMAO!!! My stepfather coached us this way, and he told us that at an IR refresher that they were taught the concept of "elevation of action". Using Doubles, Triples, and Cut (Bullet) into Back/Spin Hook Kicks.....IRs allowed players to hit the upper thigh/butt/hip if there was no intent to injure and the focus was the finishing kick.



That might have been the way it was back in the 90's for a while. Back then people were kicking the leg hard on double kick to gain the edge on racing the counter back kick/padduh chagi, similar to pounding the backside hard. But that is what I was told by an IR, don't kick the leg, butt, hip or anywhere below the belt on double or you risk the kyong go. Just passing on what was told to me.


----------



## ATC (May 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> That might have been the way it was back in the 90's for a while. Back then people were kicking the leg hard on double kick to gain the edge on racing the counter back kick/padduh chagi, similar to pounding the backside hard. But that is what I was told by an IR, don't kick the leg, butt, hip or anywhere below the belt on double or you risk the kyong go. Just passing on what was told to me.


No that is even now at all events state side and international. Master Jung is a good friend of our Sabum and is and IR. Master Ann Koo the head IR in the US is a really good friend of our Sabum and they both will disagree with you on this. If you only kick below the hogu with the intent on only kicking below the hogu, yes you will get warned. Other than that no. What we are describing will not get call 100 times out of 100.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> No that is even now at all events state side and international. Master Jung is a good friend of our Sabum and is and IR. Master Ann Koo the head IR in the US is a really good friend of our Sabum and they both will disagree with you on this. If you only kick below the hogu with the intent on only kicking below the hogu, yes you will get warned. Other than that no. What we are describing will not get call 100 times out of 100.




I just confirmed it today with a leading IR. But if you say so, go ahead. Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung? Also Anne Ku isn't the head IR in the US.


----------



## ATC (May 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> I just confirmed it today with a leading IR. But if you say so, go ahead. Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung? Also Anne Ku isn't the head IR in the US.


Sorry for the spelling errors. And I may stand corrected about Ms. Ku's title but she is high ranking US ref and IR ref as well.

With that said my the issue of the double kick still stands. Regardless the latter of the rule, the refs will not call what we discribed as a kyungo, they just won't.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

Who is Master Jung? Merrill Jung?


----------



## ATC (May 26, 2011)

I do not know his first name. I only know him as Master Jung, if I am spelling his name correctly.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> I do not know his first name. I only know him as Master Jung, if I am spelling his name correctly.



Is it this Master Jung?

http://www.koreanmartialarts.com/AboutKMAC/Instructors.html


----------



## tinker1 (May 26, 2011)

Just my opinion, but what angle I use on that kick depends entirely on what I'm wanting to hit.

If I am looking to put some power into someone, then I will use an angle that it 90 degrees to the striking plane.  For example I will use an uprising kick (45 degree kick to you) to strike either the hamstring area (a sweep), or up under the ribs (driving the abdomen upward into the rib cage).

If I am in competition, I still want to strike with power, but will sometimes use one technique to open my opponent up to a more powerful strike. For example I will use a version of round kick (turning kick) where my hips roll all the way over such that the kick actually comes at a downward angle.  I use this to pull my opponents arms out of a guarding position, then will initially follow up with hook or straight punches to the head / chest, and will sometimes (opportunity depending) follow up with an axe kick.

Master Choi also taught us to do what he called a *traditional* round kick - using the ball of the foot instead of the instep when we were competing in taekwondo style competition. Because of the way the TKD vest fits, your opponent sometimes has trouble keeping their elbows toward the center of their chest when blocking.  A *traditional* round kick strike with the ball of the foot falls neatly between their arms right to the center of their chest.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

Here is an opinion from another IR, another who is way more senior than Anne Ku:

***

You stated it perfectly: any kick below the waist RISKS a kyungo, including  multiple kicks that begin below the waist. The rule is clear. Even when multiple  kicks beginning below the waist were more tolerated, even encouraged, there was  the possibility of a kyungo. I'm sure you have noticed that sort of attack is  much less common these days. Perhaps because IR's have been directed to apply  the rule in a stricter fashion. Coaches and players may decide the risk  is worth it.  But they can't be truly surprised if a kyungo is called.  They  will lose any video replay request or protest.  

***

So you can risk it, and maybe it isn't being called, but I wouldn't want to be in a final match at the Olympics or World Championships and you lose because you get a kyong go for the first time for kicking below the waist.


----------



## ATC (May 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Is it this Master Jung?
> 
> http://www.koreanmartialarts.com/AboutKMAC/Instructors.html


No this is him as center ref in the photo belwo. Note the player in the photo also. He is starting a double kick, note where the first kick has landed.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> Note the player in the photo also. He is starting a double kick, note where the first kick has landed.



Hard to tell where the first kick landed, but if Blue was like that, leaning back, I would left hand cover punch him, and if he didn't fall to the ground, follow up with left leg ap bal to his face. Red is perfectly situated for that. Red  is looking at Blue's eyes, which are staring at Red's hogu, so the probability is that Red will kick to the hogu. Blue's weight is too high, which tends to happen when you 45 kick or even front kick on the double. It makes him vulnerable to cover punch. There is less of a tendency to do that (float upwards) when kicking properly and horizontally. 

It's ok, do what you want, but the higher you go, the more precise I think you have to be. Steven Lopez wins in part because of the precision of his movements. 

Some more from the senior IR:

***

Me: Why would you want to kick the butt or hip if electronic scoring has a  possibility of giving you two points for a double kick?

IR Answer: Well that is the real reason smart people don't do them as much anymore, no  points. Multiple kicks were encouraged and enforcement  of the low kick kalyeo declined  about, well you would know better, ten years ago(?) to encourage more action. It  had the desired effect but also created many problems. Now it's all  about the spin and the WTF is more comfortable decreeing stricter enforcement of  the low kick rule.  Finally video replay is affecting the enforcement of this  and a number of other rules. 

***

You might wish to clarify with Masters Ku and Jung about this. Or not.


----------



## ATC (May 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> Some more from the senior IR:
> 
> ***
> 
> ...


Again I don't doubt the rule, all I am saying is that it does not get called. Even if it does it is only a 1/2 point deduction. If you score consistantly with it then you are coming out ahead. Plus they don't call it.

As for trying to double full turn full turn, that is easy (albeit slower). it is triples and quads that will give you issues.

Ask Phillip Yun how he does it and how they teach it today. He has been traveling quite a bit recently.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> As for trying to double full turn full turn, that is easy (albeit slower). it is triples and quads that will give you issues.



I think it is easier to do triples and more if you turn your hip and shoulder over rather than the 45 or front kick thing. We have a drill where we go 10-100 alternating doubles on a bag. Or we do timed drills on a bag, how many you can do in a certain about of time. Once you can do that, multiples come naturally. Hip and shoulder turn too. 

As for Phillip Yun, I am sure he is good, but it doesn't look like he won anything major at any WTF International Events. 

http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun


----------



## ATC (May 26, 2011)

puunui said:


> I think it is easier to do triples and more if you turn your hip and shoulder over rather than the 45 or front kick thing. We have a drill where we go 10-100 alternating doubles on a bag. Or we do timed drills on a bag, how many you can do in a certain about of time. Once you can do that, multiples come naturally. Hip and shoulder turn too.
> 
> As for Phillip Yun, I am sure he is good, but it doesn't look like he won anything major at any WTF International Events.
> 
> http://usa-taekwondo.us/athletes/phillip-yun


 
See again we seem to be looking at the same thing not seeing or hearing one another. I never said anything about not turning the sholders or even the hips for that matter. Just the angle of the fist kick in a double. Even on triples you need to turn the hip and shoulders but the angle of the first kick is always a the lightest the lowest and most times at a 45 or even straight up and down (front kick). Think of it as a starter kick or primer kick. It is not your intended scoreing kick. Not every technique will land nor should you try to make every technique land. Now you can do that on someone that is not any good, yes.

As for why I asked you to ask Phillip, you stated once before that he was your student, not for reasons of him winning or losing anything.

Anyhow it doesn't matter. Quite a few of the top U.S. fighters have been by our studio to train with Master Suh and they all respect his skill and knowledge and he teaches what I have stated so, in the end we will both do what works for us as we have been trained. If it was all about one way only working then we would just build some robots, program them, and watch them go.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> As for why I asked you to ask Phillip, you stated once before that he was your student, not for reasons of him winning or losing anything.



I never said Phillip Yun was my student. As far as I know, I thought he was GM Young In Cheon's student. 




ATC said:


> Anyhow it doesn't matter. Quite a few of the top U.S. fighters have been by our studio to train with Master Suh and they all respect his skill and knowledge and he teaches what I have stated so, in the end we will both do what works for us as we have been trained. If it was all about one way only working then we would just build some robots, program them, and watch them go.



I can't tell you how many coaches have said that they wish their students were robots with remote controls attached. But that is what makes Taekwondo a self discovery tool. You find out who you are and what you can and cannot do. You choose to do what you do, thereby creating your own way. You are in control of your own life.


----------



## puunui (May 26, 2011)

ATC said:


> See again we seem to be looking at the same thing not seeing or hearing one another. I never said anything about not turning the sholders or even the hips for that matter. Just the angle of the fist kick in a double. Even on triples you need to turn the hip and shoulders but the angle of the first kick is always a the lightest the lowest and most times at a 45 or even straight up and down (front kick). Think of it as a starter kick or primer kick. It is not your intended scoreing kick. Not every technique will land nor should you try to make every technique land. Now you can do that on someone that is not any good, yes.




I know exactly what you are talking about. You are not the first to say go 45 on the first kick on double kick or that you should aim it below the waist. If you want to do it that way, go ahead.


----------



## vikings827 (May 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> 45/90 degrees?
> 
> 
> (90 degree being bringing your back leg around for a kick? What 45 degrees?)
> ...



I was out of TKD for 35 years. when I went back at age 56, I used this 45-90 degree pivot for 3 months, then I tore my medial meniscus on my left leg.   I won't be doing any 45-90 kicks, it will be 135 or 180 (my heel facing my target).  If you are young go for the shorter pivot, it is a little faster and speed wins.


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 28, 2011)

Just to get rid of some confusion some people seem to have, the "45" refers to the angle of the direction of the path of the foot to the vertical axis from the ground, or a standing person. If you kick vertically upwards, it will be 0 degrees, and if you kick perfectly horizontally, it would be a 90 degrees kick.

Having said that, I recently tranferred from a KKW TKD in South Korea to a ITF TKD in Massachusetts. I was taught both the 45 and the 90 in the KKW/WTF style, but I often find 45 faster, more powerful, and safer on a missed shot. But when I transferred to ITF, the master keeps telling me never to do 45 kicks. So I started doing a 45 with a higher angle (more horizontal) to make it about 75 so I can still keep the advantages, but the master insists on a more horizontal kick because "_ will hurt my foot on an opponent's elbow with a non-90 kick." I don't have much experience in ITF style sparring, so I want to ask you guys: is it really dangerous against the elbow guard? Is the risk big enough that I should consider a switch to a full 90 kick?_


----------



## ATC (Jul 28, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> Just to get rid of some confusion some people seem to have, the "45" refers to the angle of the direction of the path of the foot to the vertical axis from the ground, or a standing person. If you kick vertically upwards, it will be 0 degrees, and if you kick perfectly horizontally, it would be a 90 degrees kick.
> 
> Having said that, I recently tranferred from a KKW TKD in South Korea to a ITF TKD in Massachusetts. I was taught both the 45 and the 90 in the KKW/WTF style, but I often find 45 faster, more powerful, and safer on a missed shot. But when I transferred to ITF, the master keeps telling me never to do 45 kicks. So I started doing a 45 with a higher angle (more horizontal) to make it about 75 so I can still keep the advantages, but the master insists on a more horizontal kick because "_ will hurt my foot on an opponent's elbow with a non-90 kick." I don't have much experience in ITF style sparring, so I want to ask you guys: is it really dangerous against the elbow guard? Is the risk big enough that I should consider a switch to a full 90 kick?_


_Yes this is true. We teach both kicks and the 90 kick is used vs. elbows that brace for impact.

As I have already stated the two kicks have their place._


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 28, 2011)

since there is always a threat of elbow blocks, then is it not wise to only throw 90 kicks as my master asserts? On the other hand, I see Hwang Su Il, a very successful practitioner in ITF throwing these 45 kicks every time. What would you advise that I do in order to choose which kicks to use when? I'm trying to keep both kicks in the playbook, but it seems like people prefer to do either one of the kicks, and each kicks seem to have very reasonable advantages.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 28, 2011)

Personally, i like both of the kicks.

The 90 Degree version i find more powerful, but highly situational for effectiveness.
The 45 Degree version i find less powerful, not much faster, but able to go where a 90 Degree version perhaps cant.

For example - Yesterday, i used a 45 Degree version effectively to get into someones torso, whilst distracting them with a flurry of punches; And its a very easy kick to chain in.
A 90 Degree version would have been impractical at the time.



thelegendxp said:


> since there is always a threat of elbow  blocks, then is it not wise to only throw 90 kicks as my master asserts?  On the other hand, I see Hwang Su Il, a very successful practitioner in  ITF throwing these 45 kicks every time. What would you advise that I do  in order to choose which kicks to use when? I'm trying to keep both  kicks in the playbook, but it seems like people prefer to do either one  of the kicks, and each kicks seem to have very reasonable  advantages.



Try not to do Kicks for the sake of doing Kicks.
But in answer to your question, the 45 Degree Kick i find, is best used when your Opponent is covering his face, or upper torso, making it easy to slide one of them in.
And if you make it a double, just make sure to aim the second higher than the first.
Also, Elbow blocks only happen if you make a miscalculation. Optionally, aim higher, and deliberately hit the forearms.
It works.


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 28, 2011)

Yes, that's true. The real benefit of 45s is that it can be put in a combo easily because it doesn't involve a full body commitment, and it is a little bit more versatile in terms of distance& situations. What would be the advantage of a 90 degree kick?

Aren't high kicks better with 90 then 45? even 45 kicks end up being 65 when it's high. Someone did tell me that if a 45 is low enough, it will always be clear from the elbow.

Do you mind clarifying what you mean by the 'miscalcualtion?'

Thank you in advance!


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 28, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> Yes, that's true. The real benefit of 45s is that it can be put in a combo easily because it doesn't involve a full body commitment, and it is a little bit more versatile in terms of distance& situations. What would be the advantage of a 90 degree kick?
> 
> Aren't high kicks better with 90 then 45? even 45 kicks end up being 65 when it's high. Someone did tell me that if a 45 is low enough, it will always be clear from the elbow.
> 
> ...


Sure thing.
A miscalculation is more of a misjudgement.
For example, you dont try and punch someone in the solar plexus, if it means punching their bare elbow, whilst they hammer in to your exposed face.
Or trying to do a Back Kick at close range, and falling on your face when you get him in the back of the head.

The 90 Degree kick is alot more powerful, and can go where a 45 cant. You could also make it a 100-120 degree kick, and kick at a downward angle.

You can do a high 45, but you need flexible hips and strong quads.

The 45 can be clear of the elbow at chest height. Its all about angle. For example; In Boxing, if faced with an opponent in a perfect stance, you dont attack their body or head, because you cant. You attack their stance itself. Much in the same way, if im faced with a perfect defencive stance, a 90 degree kick to the hands (It hits the forearms nigh always, but i am for the hands) can throw someone back 1-3 steps, but more importantly, weakens their arms, and their guard.
If im faced with a close distance stance, a 45 degree kick can get from the ground to my targets ribs very quickly, but it isnt likely to break anything.

As for high kicks, it depends on your Target. The main thing is that the shoulders can get in the way. Therefore, the person needs to be in the opposite stance to you, creating an open stance situation. Optionally, use your front leg. That way, the shoulders will not get in the way, and its possible to literally uppercut someones jaw with your Instep.

On the flipside again, Round Kicks of any shape or form are the easiest kicks of all to block, in my opinion. Which is why i say theyre Opportunistic, unless your just trying to pound someones Stance.

Its slightly complicated, but if you find a pillar, support beam, corner of a wall, something like that.
Stand at different angles to it, and just on the spot, perform the movement of both kicks, and see how differently both connect.


----------



## Rumy73 (Jul 29, 2011)

Andy,

I think you have some confusion in your terminology. Peet-chagi is a reverse roundhouse kick. It is used in traditional Korean styles like Soo Bahk Do and others. 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/bkaeg/4945063224/

Traditional roundhouse kick calls for the hip to turnover so that the leg strikes at a 90 degree angle and the supporting foot turns 180 degrees. Kicking at 45 degrees is a recent phenomena, which is has application in sports. The former generates much more power and the latter is for quick striking.

Concerning the term "roundhouse," if you dislike it, then use the Korean term - Dollyo Chagi.

Best,

Rumy



andyjeffries said:


> I've heard talk about students coming over to a new club and the new club has to untrain them from performing 45 degree kicks (Beet-chagi). At the club I train at we do 45 degree kicks, but I'm soon starting my own club. I also practice doing more round-kick* style as I know it's more modern and I understand the reasoning behind not doing 45 degree kicks (elbows, more power). However, before I drop them from my newly created syllabus I wanted to ask the group:
> 
> Do you still practice/teach half-turning kicks?
> 
> ...


----------



## andyjeffries (Jul 29, 2011)

Rumy73 said:


> I think you have some confusion in your terminology. Peet-chagi is a reverse roundhouse kick.



Peet chagi is a common enough term for the 45 degree kick that others on here recognised it, but the Kukkiwon now seems to prefer "Bandal Chagi" (from the textbook).  However, you then go on to say this:



Rumy73 said:


> It is used in traditional Korean styles like Soo Bahk Do and others.
> 
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/bkaeg/4945063224/



Within Taekwondo this kick is called a "Bituro Chagi".  Where did you learn that this kick is called "peet chagi" from?  Also, have you not heard the term "peet chagi" in relation to Taekwondo?



Rumy73 said:


> Traditional roundhouse kick calls for the hip to turnover so that the leg strikes at a 90 degree angle and the supporting foot turns 180 degrees. Kicking at 45 degrees is a recent phenomena, which is has application in sports. The former generates much more power and the latter is for quick striking.



Thanks for that ;-) ;-) ;-)



Rumy73 said:


> Concerning the term "roundhouse," if you dislike it, then use the Korean term - Dollyo Chagi.



We do perform and use the term Dollyo chagi (but we use the English translation of "turning kick" which is actually a closer translation than "roundhouse kick") but we also do peet chagi ("half-turning kick").  Apparently we're in the minority still using peet-chagi as our bread and butter as most of the world is now using dollyo chagi to mid-section.


----------



## thelegendxp (Jul 30, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Sure thing.
> A miscalculation is more of a misjudgement.
> For example, you dont try and punch someone in the solar plexus, if it means punching their bare elbow, whilst they hammer in to your exposed face.
> Or trying to do a Back Kick at close range, and falling on your face when you get him in the back of the head.
> ...



I see. with a tight guard like kick boxing, muay thai, etc. it would not be too wise to throw 45s often, while 90 can be thrown sparingly like left jabs.

I feel like 45s are only clear on lower abdomen and above chest: because of its nature to strike slightly upwards, it tends to brush up and end up hitting the either of the elbows if the pivotting knee does not reach in far enough, or if the other person backs up even a slight bit. Do you have any first-hand experiences of using 45s in situations where the person is guarding upperbody fairly well?

Thank you for your very elaborate clarification!


----------



## Cyriacus (Jul 30, 2011)

thelegendxp said:


> I see. with a tight guard like kick boxing, muay thai, etc. it would not be too wise to throw 45s often, while 90 can be thrown sparingly like left jabs.
> 
> I feel like 45s are only clear on lower abdomen and above chest: because of its nature to strike slightly upwards, it tends to brush up and end up hitting the either of the elbows if the pivotting knee does not reach in far enough, or if the other person backs up even a slight bit. Do you have any first-hand experiences of using 45s in situations where the person is guarding upperbody fairly well?
> 
> Thank you for your very elaborate clarification!


Yep - I also have a Photo, somewere. (Emphasis on Somewere. I have no idea where i would have put it.)

I tend to use them as an Aggressive Counter Attack, or as a way to Close Distance.

But as an example;

Sparring, same Rank;
In a Closed Stance Situation. (Both in the same Stance. In this case, Right Foot Back)
Both of us are in a Strong Stance, about 30 Centimeters between the tips of our Toes.
He Performs a Right... Eh... I think it was a Hook. It may have been an Overhand. I didnt exactly wait and see.
I perform a quick Jab, then catch a Backfist with my other hand.
He performs a Front Hand Uppercut.
I perform another Jab, and shuffle up.
Then Raised my Right Hand as if to punch as a distraction, and used it to generate reverse power (I pulled it back to my hip) on a 45 Degree Instep Kick to the general area of his Floating Ribs.
Attacking his guard would have quickly resulted in him reversing it against me. 
In attacking his face, i forced him to guard up. I led him to believe i was performing a One>Two Combination.
It was unblockable, since if he lowered his arms to block it if he did see it coming, i could then punch his head.
If he kept his hands up, my Kick connects.
If he tries to Counterattack, its too late for that; Plus i have momentum.

Simplified;
Lean Back to Avoid Hook > Block Backfist from Hook > Jab and Shuffle Up > Feint Cross Punch > 45 Degree Kick.
Combination for Dummies;
Jab > Punch > Kick

In Kickboxing or Muay Thai, id recommend using it to attack the Hip/Thigh, as oppose to the Torso.


----------



## Jaeimseu (Aug 1, 2011)

I know a lot of people teach 45 degree kicks and 90 degree kicks and have reasons for doing so, but in my experience most of the people I see doing 45 degree round kicks aren't doing it intentionally. I know many people do it on purpose, but I think many others just have lazy technique and don't turn over the hip/pivot the base foot.


----------



## ATC (Aug 1, 2011)

Posted to the wrong thread. Sorry. Ignore this post please.


----------

