# Differences of Siu Lim Tao?



## aichis (Dec 25, 2010)

I watched few videos of sil lim tao in youtube. but it is slightly different from what i thought?

i give 2 examples:











slightly difference...from what my instructor taught me...
what i can say the basic is still there but still, difference is difference...

could someone explain to me?


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## Vajramusti (Dec 25, 2010)

aichis said:


> I watched few videos of sil lim tao in youtube. but it is slightly different from what i thought?
> 
> i give 2 examples:
> 
> ...


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Those two are not quite the basic Ip Man wing chun sil lim tao.The first one by Wong is non Ip Man wing chun for sure.

I do it this way: 




Except for the Fong signature opening and the the double punch in one section that is one version of a Ip man form.

There are other non Ip man varieties of wing chun.

joy chaudhuri


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## hunt1 (Dec 25, 2010)

Aichis, I would guess about 80% of all wing chun practiced today is tied to Yip Man,perhaps more. That still leaves 20% of wing chun not going back to Yip Man.

 The first link you put up is Pan Nam wing chun. The second is a person that first learned from a line going back to Leung Chun,a son of Leung Jan and then he became a student of Yip Ching. Hence is form has a few differences from Yip Man.

 Also many people add or change a bit of the forms to suit themselves by emphasizing things they deem important.  As long as the core teaching is there everything is good.


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## aichis (Dec 25, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Those two are not quite the basic Ip Man wing chun sil lim tao.The first one by Wong is non Ip Man wing chun for sure.
> 
> I do it this way:
> ...



owh i see,

does practicing non-ipman wing chun will gives me good or just spoil the wing chun effectiveness?

Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,

I seem many master Wong videos in youtube,
some of his techniques meets what i taught, but got some differences also..


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## Vajramusti (Dec 25, 2010)

aichis said:


> Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> In rumor mills anythinng can be said-irresponsibly.!!!!! IMO- you don't seem to know what you are talking about.  Either you heard wrong or your source was wrong.I am not trying to insult you-just dealing with some facts.
> ...


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## aichis (Dec 25, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> aichis said:
> 
> 
> > Fong signatures? do mean augustine fong? i heard he lied bout his lineage, i dunno much however,
> ...


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## mook jong man (Dec 25, 2010)

Whenever I ponder what is correct or incorrect in Wing Chun , my mind is always cast back to this ancient chinese proverb.

Two _Wongs_ dont make a right.


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## profesormental (Dec 25, 2010)

Greetings.

The emphasis in the forms and their execution depend on the lesson or exercise being transferred by the instructor.

Sometimes you emphasize structure proprioception and teaching your body how it must position itself for maximal stability. Others can use it as a dynamic tension exercise. Others still use the exercise to teach other things.

Thus it is dependent on the lesson being taught by the instructor.

Hope that helps.


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## geezer (Dec 25, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> Facts: Fong sifu learned from Ho Kam Ming in Hong Kong 1960 to 1968- then kept in touch after he came to Arizona- brought him here fo HKM's first US seminar- and brought him for seminars several times till HKM's last retirement seminar.
> HKM learned directly from Ip man both publicly and privately in Hong Kong  regularly for almost 8 years till around 1962 and then stayed in close touch with IM till his death in 1972.



_Aichis_ I study in another branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and can tell you that if you check out the SNT (or SLT) form as done by known Yip Man groups they are all similar to the Augustine Fong version Joy posted, although they will vary in details and flavor. As far as "lying about his lineage", well there are some well known and very knowledgeable sifus who have exaggerated their resumes to build their reps... including my own former sifu! On the other hand I know Joy, and have met Augustine Fong on a couple of occasions. For the record, both have impeccable reputations.




Vajramusti said:


> Fong is different from HKM in a couple of places- particularly in adding the double punch in the section dealing with both hands... including the two handed  han and ding.Both give their reasons for what they do.
> 
> Joy Chaudhuri
> www. tempewingchun.com



_Joy,_ I noticed the double punch additions, other than that it's pretty close to the LT version of SNT that I practice. Do you know when Sifu Fong added the double punches? I don't recall them in the Fong version I learned before I studied with LT, but that's been a long time (over 30 years to be precise) so I may not remember correctly.


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## aichis (Dec 26, 2010)

geezer said:


> _Aichis_ I study in another branch of Yip Man Wing Chun and can tell you that if you check out the SNT (or SLT) form as done by known Yip Man groups they are all similar to the Augustine Fong version Joy posted, although they will vary in details and flavor. As far as "lying about his lineage", well there are some well known and very knowledgeable sifus who have exaggerated their resumes to build their reps... including my own former sifu! On the other hand I know Joy, and have met Augustine Fong on a couple of occasions. For the record, both have impeccable reputations.



Thanks, I will watch the Fong's SLT by joy then.
Hope I could improve myself.



profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> The emphasis in the forms and their execution depend on the lesson or exercise being transferred by the instructor.
> 
> ...



Thanks, this explain the differences for me,
but I wonder if the SLT(SNT) changing all the time due to emphasis( of structure or relax or other thing), could the SLT(SNT) becomes ineffective, or less effective to fight?



mook jong man said:


> Whenever I ponder what is correct or incorrect in Wing Chun , my mind is always cast back to this ancient chinese proverb.
> 
> Two _Wongs_ dont make a right.



There are maybe even three or four or many Wongs Wing Chun, but only one is Yipman's, maybe??Dont bother this anyway, not important.

If I practice more than one SLT(SNT), could it gives good to me?


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## Vajramusti (Dec 26, 2010)

geezer said:


> _Joy,_ I noticed the double punch additions, other than that it's pretty close to the LT version of SNT that I practice. Do you know when Sifu Fong added the double punches? I don't recall them in the Fong version I learned before I studied with LT, but that's been a long time (over 30 years to be precise) so I may not remember correctly.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Steve-Hope you had a good Christmas. I did. I started with Fong sifu in 1976- the double punch was there from my beginning. It was put in the section that has two handed motions including  the down and up - han/ding motions.
The double punch practice helps bringing out even energies - on both (right and left) sides.
When Fong sifu was HKM's student in Macao- HKM had him throw hundreds of double punches while in ygkym and also with footwork.
joy


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## cwk (Dec 26, 2010)

aichis said:


> Thanks, I will watch the Fong's SLT by joy then.
> Hope I could improve myself.
> 
> 
> ...



IMO, no form is effective for fighting. You must take the things that the form teaches you and then drill them with increasing intensity and aliveness and finally, spar a lot. Forms are good for teaching you things but they can't teach you to fight.

to answer your other question- I would just stick to practicing the SLT that your teacher is using as that is what he will be referring to. Practicing another lineages SLT could just confuse things for you.


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## profesormental (Dec 27, 2010)

Greetings.

As stated before, execution of just SLT 1,000,000 times won't make you a better fighter. It will teach you HOW to do stuff, depending on the instructor.

In my case, that is what it does; SLT is a vehicle to transmit the HOW things are done. WHAT is done in a fight or self defense situation is another thing that has to be drilled progressively, intensively and purposefully.

And that depends on the Teacher. Since the knowledge of how the mind-body learns is NOT part of the forms, but part of what has to be learned and transmitted by knowledgeable teachers, this is the key.

My advise is to do exactly as you instructor says and ask the HOW and WHY of each movement. Like language, movement has syntax and content and bot hare important for effective communication (beating someone up is a very clear message.  )

Hope this helps.


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## geezer (Dec 27, 2010)

aichis said:


> If I practice *more than one* SLT(SNT), could it gives good to me?



I would definitely recommend _against_ practicing different versions, especially as a beginner. In our lineage we use the name _Siu Nim Tau _ or "Little Idea Form". Part of the meaning of that name is that getting a "little idea" right is far more valuable than trying to learn a lot of things at once and doing them poorly! And, SNT is deep. There's a lot of stuff there without trying to learn variant versions whose rationale you may not understand.

Now, on the other hand, some very advanced practitioners do investigate different lineages and what their interpretations have to offer. But that's only after they have a full comprehension of their own system. As others have said, that will only confuse you as a beginner. There's no harm in looking at Youtube clips, but as for what you actually train, remember, keep a _"Little Idea"_ and good luck with your progress!


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## aichis (Dec 28, 2010)

ok, thanks very much guys,
 ill be practicing only what my instructor taught me,

but,
I have another question from my friend,
He did the Sil Lim Tao forms perfectly,
but unfortunately, he didnt know why, how, what the movement for...
I mean he just do it w/o understanding the theory and concept of Sil Lim Tao.
Is he will be okay with his WC?


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## cwk (Dec 29, 2010)

aichis said:


> ok, thanks very much guys,
> ill be practicing only what my instructor taught me,
> 
> but,
> ...



 I think the lack of replies says it all.
The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.


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## aichis (Dec 29, 2010)

cwk said:


> I think the lack of replies says it all.
> The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.



Owh yeah, is it so?

IMO, just IMO, it would be okay if he doesnt understand theory but he must spar and practices a lot.

cause if we refer to way of Yip Man taught his student, does he really taught about the concept and theory? I dont think so, why ? I just dont think so...

by the way this is just my opinion, no references or taught by other people or else..
just by my brain. so dont take it seriously...


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## wtxs (Dec 29, 2010)

cwk said:


> I think the lack of replies says it all.
> The answer would be a firm NO. Wing chun is an art based on concepts and without a thorough understanding of said concepts there is no practical application.





aichis said:


> *Owh yeah, is it so?
> 
> IMO, just IMO, it would be okay if he doesnt understand theory but he must spar and practices a lot.
> 
> ...




PPLLLLEASE ... not again!  Hey Zepe ... I'm having an DeJavu man, what about you?

Aichis my boy (the beginner) ... it is not wise to question the collective knowledge and experience of established MA'ist on this forum.  Why don't you present what you had voiced here to your teacher and see how he/she would respond ... he/she would be you bud if he/she thinks the way you do, and has no qualification as an teacher.


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## zepedawingchun (Dec 29, 2010)

wtxs said:


> PPLLLLEASE ... not again! Hey Zepe ... I'm having an DeJavu man, what about you?


 
Could be Coffeerox in disguise, ya never know.



wtxs said:


> Aichis my boy (the beginner) ... it is not wise to question the collective knowledge and experience of established MA'ist on this forum. Why don't you present what you had voiced here to your teacher and see how he/she would respond ... he/she would be you bud if he/she thinks the way you do, and has no qualification as an teacher.


 
Ditto the sentiment. Without knowing and understanding the concepts of the form(s), everything is just a hand movement with no meaning to what the positions can/might/how/are used for.

Ever tried to look at a martial arts books and not read the words or captions, just look at the pictures (expecially a Wing Chun book). Especially with the forms, some pictures make sense, others, you wondered how to use it and how they got from this pose to that pose, wishing it was a video instead so you could get an idea of how the motion was performed (how it got from point a to point b). But it doesn't always tell you why, which is what the concepts help do. Without the concepts to help you with the forms, you may know how it got from point a to point b, but not know why. Without the which, why, when, where, and how of the concepts, you are just lost. And with the concepts, it allows you to use the hand positions several different ways depending on your creativity and the situation.

Example: the basic Wing Chun punch (yut yee kune or some say yut chi kune), everyone knows 1. you use it to strike or hit a target (person). But you can also use it to 2. destroy a block, from the outside going in, executed by your opponent (and move their hands out of the way), expecially when used as a battle punch combination. Or you can use it to 3. clear out space (coming across your centerline, left hand from the right side, right hand from the left side) into the center of your opponent and then use it to also strike. Three different ideas on how to use the basic Wing Chun punch, all three effective but using 1 hand position, the punch. You're not bound by the system to tell you how to use it, just use it.


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## wtxs (Dec 29, 2010)

zepedawingchun said:


> Could be Coffeerox in disguise, ya never know.



:whip1::whip1::whip1:  You bad boy ... not polite to trash trolls by name. :feedtroll But you know what ... he did "rox" our cradle for awhile ... Zzzzzzz


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## aichis (Dec 30, 2010)

wtxs said:


> PPLLLLEASE ... not again!  Hey Zepe ... I'm having an DeJavu man, what about you?
> 
> Aichis my boy (the beginner) ... it is not wise to question the collective knowledge and experience of established MA'ist on this forum.  Why don't you present what you had voiced here to your teacher and see how he/she would respond ... he/she would be you bud if he/she thinks the way you do, and has no qualification as an teacher.





zepedawingchun said:


> Could be Coffeerox in disguise, ya never know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks for the explanation and clearing my misunderstanding.

btw, you have said to read books to improve my understanding of concepts ?
what is the good books for Sil Lim Tao?
what about the DVD? I can watch it too!!


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## Vajramusti (Dec 30, 2010)

aichis said:


> Thanks for the explanation and clearing my misunderstanding.
> 
> btw, you have said to read books to improve my understanding of concepts ?
> what is the good books for Sil Lim Tao?
> what about the DVD? I can watch it too!!


--------------------------------------------------------------

Suggest you ask your instructor, if you have one or get an instructor if you don't have one.

joy chaudhuri


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## zepedawingchun (Dec 30, 2010)

aichis said:


> Thanks for the explanation and clearing my misunderstanding.
> 
> btw, you have said to read books to improve my understanding of concepts ?
> what is the good books for Sil Lim Tao?
> what about the DVD? I can watch it too!!


 
As for books and DVDs, I can't think of any off the top of my head.  Since I'm not at home right now, give me a day and I'll see what I have in my library which I think are worth reading/watching.

One DVD/video I like was done by Wong Shun Leung back in the early 1980's called the Science of Wing Chun.  It's about 40 minutes and gives some good information, but very basic.  Not sure you can find a copy of it now, but worth trying.

Jason Lau also did a 3 piece video/DVD collection which you can find on the internet.  It's very basic but I think covers most of what you need to understand some of the concepts.  However, everything looks very military, from the way the students dress, to how regimented they train.  The chi sau demonstrations are cool, and in some places the students are very relaxed and flow well.  The 3 part collection can be had for about $50 I think.

Again, I suggest these videos/DVDs not to train Wing Chun in place of a Sifu but to help you better understand the system.  Pretty much everything in them are the central focus to any Wing Chun lineage.  However, in the end, watch them, hopefully they will help you understand the system better, but train with a competent Sifu and do it the way they suggest.


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## aichis (Dec 31, 2010)

Vajramusti said:


> --------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Suggest you ask your instructor, if you have one or get an instructor if you don't have one.
> 
> joy chaudhuri



I do have one, but I rarely meet him,
maybe once a month, because I setup my class with the instructor for part time class.
so its one a month.thats why i wanna add my info from this forum



zepedawingchun said:


> As for books and DVDs, I can't think of any off the top of my head.  Since I'm not at home right now, give me a day and I'll see what I have in my library which I think are worth reading/watching.
> 
> One DVD/video I like was done by Wong Shun Leung back in the early 1980's called the Science of Wing Chun.  It's about 40 minutes and gives some good information, but very basic.  Not sure you can find a copy of it now, but worth trying.
> 
> ...



what do you mean by "looks very military"?



wtxs said:


> The video you're referring to is called "The Science of in-fighting", and can be downloaded if you know where to look for it ... like looking for pirate's treasure ... hint, hint.%-}
> 
> I still have my copy in VHS bought back the early 80's.



You got the point...


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## geezer (Dec 31, 2010)

aichis said:


> I do have one, but I rarely meet him,
> maybe once a month, because I setup my class with the instructor for part time class.
> so its one a month.thats why i wanna add my info from this forum...



Honestly, _once a month isn't enough_. I know because I've been in your situation. What is the reason you can't train with your instructor more often? Does he live out of the area, or is he just very busy?

Anyway, at the very least you need to get together with some training partners on a more regular basis. Maybe you have a friend or two who can train with you... that is if your instructor is accepting more students. That way you can practice and polish your skills while waiting for your next session with your instructor. Seriously, you can't learn much from videos, youtube clips and forums alone. This stuff is more of a fun way to meet other people who share a passion for WC. You really need to get a solid base under your sifu's guidance with real training partners first. Good luck!


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## aichis (Jan 1, 2011)

geezer said:


> Honestly, _once a month isn't enough_. I know because I've been in your situation. What is the reason you can't train with your instructor more often? Does he live out of the area, or is he just very busy?
> 
> Anyway, at the very least you need to get together with some training partners on a more regular basis. Maybe you have a friend or two who can train with you... that is if your instructor is accepting more students. That way you can practice and polish your skills while waiting for your next session with your instructor. Seriously, *you can't learn much from videos, youtube clips and forums alone*. This stuff is more of a fun way to meet other people who share a passion for WC. You really need to get a solid base under your sifu's guidance with real training partners first. Good luck!



Firstly, yes, he lives out of my area, I need about 50mins-1 hr to go there w/o traffic problems.
Just imagine if the roads having a traffic probs...maybe 30 additional mins  required.

I dont think he is busy though, because the only thing he does is only instructing peoples of chunners.

I cant learn much, its okay, how bout a little, at least something isnt it??
I do have partners and he goes with me to the training place.


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## geezer (Jan 1, 2011)

aichis said:


> Firstly, yes, he lives out of my area, I need about 50mins-1 hr to go there w/o traffic problems.
> Just imagine if the roads having a traffic probs...maybe 30 additional mins  required.
> 
> I dont think he is busy though, because the only thing he does is only instructing peoples of chunners.
> ...



Well that doesn't sound so bad. I commute 30 miles each way every Saturday to train Eskrima. And I don't even have a training partner to go with me... although I'm working on that. So I'd recommend making a New Year's resolution to get out to your instructor's a minimum of once a week, and train with your partner at least one other day a week, in addition to doing forms and drills on your own. You won't regret it!


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## aichis (Jan 1, 2011)

geezer said:


> Well that doesn't sound so bad. I commute 30 miles each way every Saturday to train Eskrima. And I don't even have a training partner to go with me... although I'm working on that. So I'd recommend making a New Year's resolution to get out to your instructor's a minimum of once a week, and train with your partner at least one other day a week, in addition to doing forms and drills on your own. You won't regret it!



30 miles is okay even for me but the training place is about 55 miles!!~huh~ Im tired just for driving all the way...
btw, riding a train never had been in my mind, but i dont think of riding it due to personal cause.

training with my partner?I can train everyday with him. He's my neighbor.


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## Vajramusti (Jan 1, 2011)

aichis said:


> 30 miles is okay even for me but the training place is about 55 miles!!~huh~ Im tired just for driving all the way...
> btw, riding a train never had been in my mind, but i dont think of riding it due to personal cause.
> 
> training with my partner?I can train everyday with him. He's my neighbor.


----------------------------------------------------
Just curious- where are you and who is your teacher and where is he? With that info- maybe someone can suggest a solution to your problem?


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## wtxs (Jan 1, 2011)

aichis said:


> Firstly, yes, he lives out of my area, I need about 50mins-1 hr to go there w/o traffic problems.
> Just imagine if the roads having a traffic probs...maybe 30 additional mins  required.  I dont think he is busy though, because the only thing he does is only instructing peoples of chunners.
> 
> I cant learn much, its okay, how bout a little, at least something isnt it??
> I do have partners and he goes with me to the training place.





aichis said:


> training with my partner?I can train everyday with him. He's my neighbor.


 

Hopefully your partner had more training under his belt than you do, other wise you both will end up with lots of bad habits (training without proper guidance) .. like the blind leading the blind.

It's OK to learn small bites at a time, but please do take the time to learn them correctly in order to properly build your knowledge foundation.


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## aichis (Jan 1, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Hopefully your partner had more training under his belt than you do, other wise you both will end up with lots of bad habits (training without proper guidance) .. like the blind leading the blind.
> 
> It's OK to learn small bites at a time, but please do take the time to learn them correctly in order to properly build your knowledge foundation.



Ok, thanx, I will try my best to do that.


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## zepedawingchun (Jan 2, 2011)

aichis said:


> . . . . what do you mean by "looks very military"?


 
All of Jason Lau's students dress in army fatigues with berets and boots, they stand in line or line up like they are starting PE in the morning.  Some drills look like they are beginning military drill.  You have to see it and you'll understand.


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## aichis (Jan 3, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> All of Jason Lau's students dress in army fatigues with berets and boots, they stand in line or line up like they are starting PE in the morning.  Some drills look like they are beginning military drill.  You have to see it and you'll understand.



Looks like Im getting tougher after watching the vids..lol

btw ill try to find it.


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## zepedawingchun (Jan 4, 2011)

aichis said:


> Thanks for the explanation and clearing my misunderstanding.
> 
> btw, you have said to read books to improve my understanding of concepts ?
> what is the good books for Sil Lim Tao?
> what about the DVD? I can watch it too!!


 
I went back and looked at what I had for reading to help with the Wing Chun concepts.  One really good book is Mastering Kung Fu by Garrett Yee.  It gets pretty deep concerning principles, theories, and concepts.  You can order it online or through Barnes and Noble.

There are a couple of books written by K.T. Chao and J.E Weakland that to me are worth searching for.  Three of them to be exact.  They are titled 'Secret Techniques of Wing Chun Kung Fu'  Volumes One (Level 1, Sil Lim Tao), Volume Two (Level 2, Chum Kil), and Volume Three (Level 3, Bil Jee).  Volume one and three are easy to find, if you look around a bit.  However, volume 2, Chum Kil, is almost impossible.  I found one used copy for sale at $125 not too long ago.  Haven't been able to put my hands on a new one for a reasonable price.  The 2 books I have (Sil Lim Tao and Bil Jee) go into pretty good detail and to me are worth having.


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## aichis (Jan 4, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> I went back and looked at what I had for reading to help with the Wing Chun concepts.  One really good book is Mastering Kung Fu by Garrett Yee.  It gets pretty deep concerning principles, theories, and concepts.  You can order it online or through Barnes and Noble.
> 
> There are a couple of books written by K.T. Chao and J.E Weakland that to me are worth searching for.  Three of them to be exact.  They are titled 'Secret Techniques of Wing Chun Kung Fu'  Volumes One (Level 1, Sil Lim Tao), Volume Two (Level 2, Chum Kil), and Volume Three (Level 3, Bil Jee).  Volume one and three are easy to find, if you look around a bit.  However, volume 2, Chum Kil, is almost impossible.  I found one used copy for sale at $125 not too long ago.  Haven't been able to put my hands on a new one for a reasonable price.  The 2 books I have (Sil Lim Tao and Bil Jee) go into pretty good detail and to me are worth having.



thanx,

ill be searching for the books you said.
the mastering kung fu by Garrett is featuring shaolin wing chun. Its okay though, i have  watched shaolin siu lim tao performed by sifu todd shawn tei. Its kinda and likely to be same with my sifu SLT, few slightly differences only. I will try to take what best for me and leave what's not.

The secret techniques of WC, the styles is kinda old books. however, i will try to find it.

I am now watching the vids by Gary Lam titled siu lim tao and its application.
well..it gives some good.

owh, and one more things, of course i will confirm it with my sifu, dont worry.


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## procmail (Jan 12, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> I went back and looked at what I had for reading to help with the Wing Chun concepts.  One really good book is Mastering Kung Fu by Garrett Yee.  It gets pretty deep concerning principles, theories, and concepts.  You can order it online or through Barnes and Noble.
> 
> There are a couple of books written by K.T. Chao and J.E Weakland that to me are worth searching for.  Three of them to be exact.  They are titled 'Secret Techniques of Wing Chun Kung Fu'  Volumes One (Level 1, Sil Lim Tao), Volume Two (Level 2, Chum Kil), and Volume Three (Level 3, Bil Jee).  Volume one and three are easy to find, if you look around a bit.  However, volume 2, Chum Kil, is almost impossible.  I found one used copy for sale at $125 not too long ago.  Haven't been able to put my hands on a new one for a reasonable price.  The 2 books I have (Sil Lim Tao and Bil Jee) go into pretty good detail and to me are worth having.



Thanks for that. 

I just bought, based on your recommendation, Volume 1 of 'Secret Techniques of Wing Chun Kung Fu'. 

The other 2 books are too expensive for me at this point in time.


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