# Dojang Discipline Problem and Safety Concerns



## outsider0506 (Aug 31, 2012)

My daughter (9 years old) has been at her dojang for over a year after transferring from another dojang that closed. She has been a consistent sparring team member and a state champion in her division in both poomse and sparring. She has really liked being at the new club, with the exception of an 8 year old boy that is consistently out of control.

Whenever this boy gets paired up with a girl, he goes completely ballistic; throwing kicks full force with the intent of causing physical injury. Since his overall skill level is pretty low, he usually ends up kicking the girls in the legs and making them hurt, but not causing any real injury. Over the last 4 weeks he has started adding punching ONLY while fighting the girls.

Last night, he went over the top and punched my daughter above the hogu and in the throat, knocking her to the floor gasping for breath and leaving a nasty bruise on the bones just below the trachea. An inch higher and my daughter would have gone to the hospital. I saw the shot and he did not pull it at all. Today she is still having pain swallowing.

I completely understand that this is a contact sport and have no problems with an occasional low kick, a hard head shot here or there, a body shot that went a little too hard for training, but this kid seems not to have any respect or regard for the safety of his training partners or he just hates girls. The rest of the kids in the class have a pretty healthy attitude for the training process and good control, except for this kid.

I spoke to the head instructor (who was not present at the time) to voice my concerns. I told him that I don't want to see that boy paired up with my daughter again. This morning, I'm thinking if I don't see some improvement I'll have to withdraw my daughter from this dojang and seek training somewhere else even though I know the training would be inferior. I do take my daughter's safety seriously. 

Am I overreacting to the situation?


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## Gnarlie (Aug 31, 2012)

Nope.   The instructor has a responsibility to deal with this if you let them know, and that kid needs talking to, even from an instructor's perspective. 

Gnarlie


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## Instructor (Aug 31, 2012)

You did the right thing.  The instructor should straiten the kid out and if that proves impossible he should be asked to leave.


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## jks9199 (Aug 31, 2012)

The only thing I might add is to ensure that the instructor teaching was aware and took some form of action. It's not clear from your post what they did or if they knew. 

Honestly, given the history you posted, I would question the assistant or junior instructor's competence in general.  They may need some better supervision themselves. 

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2


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## outsider0506 (Aug 31, 2012)

I agree. It is rare when the head instructor is not present for the competition sparring class and I believe he would taken a stronger stance on the incident if he had witnessed it himself. I think the junior instructors didn't want to get into it beyond making sure that my daughter could still breathe. The level of supervision that day was minimal at best (which was unusual).

About 2-3 months ago the head instructor warned the class about trying to kill each other in class, instead of training. I don't think this kid got the message and I don't think the training with your partner vs. killing your partner message is reinforced by the boy's parents either. 

It is really a sad situation. The training at this place is otherwise excellent and my daughter has progressed by leaps and bounds in the last year. She is strong, confident and technical when sparring. If I switched her out now, I think it will hurt her chances of doing well at the US Open next year. But, there's no question in my mind that her safety comes first. 

If she gets paired up with him again or if I see anything remotely close to this incident happen again, I will not hesitate to yank her out of the dojang on the spot.


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## miguksaram (Aug 31, 2012)

I agree you did the right thing about informing the instructor of the incident.  I would also recommend that if your daughter can take him then it is time that she gives him a taste of his own medicine.  Not saying to punch him in the throat but perhaps a couple hard kicks to humble him.  It sounds like the kid has bully tendency towards girls, from you describe.  He needs to shown the hard way that girls are not someone to bully just because they are a girl.


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## Master Dan (Aug 31, 2012)

First it is the complete responsibility of the head instructor to totally controll all activity from the time the kids enter to the time they leave and if he is not there or running it at the time maybe office what ever the person or instructor in charge also has complete control period no excuses. If there is a problem with a student it has to be dealt with and thier behavior controlled or changed or they have to be elimnated from the class. Sparring is not fighting but training with in the famly of TKD and we do not hurt our famly! it is the duty of the stronger to lift up and help weaker ones get stronger while possibly doing technque we cannot do or practice on a equal or better opponnet but pulling the technique letting them know they need to keep thier gaurd up but also letting them feel what it is like to get in and have successfull contact with out being constantly banged or bruized increasing confidence and skill.

It would be tempting if that happened to have your daughter told and taught to take his legs or groin out as a lesson to not do it again but liability issues and also if he has been abused causing him to act this way will not help him and only increase his acting out on others so he needs help in a positive way but not at the expense of your daughters safety and others. 

This was a serious assault in a non sportsmanlike manner and a short letter on your attorneys letterhead asking for the name of his liabilty insurance carrier will give this DoJang owner pause to never allow this kind of behavior again.


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## eliteguardian (Aug 31, 2012)

In my opinion there should be no junior instructor teaching a sparring course especially with children, in my Dojang you have to a fifth degree or above to be able to teach a sparring class as our head instructor doesn't allow anyone but those who he knows and trusts completely. I would be surprised if the child was not yanked off the mats then and there and made to sit down with perhaps a good telling off afterwards. However I do not think you overreacted at all, quite frankly the child should have been watched closer by the instructor to avoid incidents like this. I wish your daughter good luck in future endeavors and a speedy recovery!


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## Omar B (Aug 31, 2012)

I don't wanna sound alarmist but that type of sparring class the head instructor should be there.  Him not being there shows a disregard for safety and he pretty much leaves it open to the other instructors to choose what they want.  You think at a Seido or Kyokushin school the Sensei would not be right there on the floor for sparring or free fight?

Also the kid is a problem, I don't know how much at home discipline he has but Sensei needs to get him on that push up regimen of discipline.

Oh for the days of 80's-early 90's karate when sensei still carried a cane in class and used it with our parents glad consent when we got out of line.


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## ATC (Aug 31, 2012)

OK I will go in a different direction with this. Yes the person running the class needs to be aware of saftey and watch over the kids and handle the situations better. I personally would not have a Jr. instructor allow anyone to spar if the head or any of the actual instructors were not there. They would only work drills and such. However with all that said I think you are overreacting a bit. What I can infer from you post is that this boy is this way with all girls and even when the head instructor is around. To me your overreaction is not that you are concerned with your daughter and her safety, but rather the way you want to handle things. Yes you should talk to the head instructor (respectfully I should add), and yes your are in the right to make sure that the boy is under control. But you state that your daughter is better skillfully and technically so then why does she not show it. Instead of fighting your kids battles and teaching your kid to run from the situation (leaving the school over this simple matter), You should after doing all that you have already done and things still did not change, is to tell your kid that if he keeps it up to pop him good somewhere (be it the head or the kid jewels). You should be teaching your kid to resolve the issues as you are trying to, but when that fails they need to find a respectful way to nip it in the bud. Yes you need to exhaust all normal and proper channels first.

What I see is a kid that does what he does not because they are girls but because he does not respect them. I can almost bet dimes to dollars he would do the same with even other boys that he thinks he can dominate. This makes him a bully. Not that he wants to be a bully but in his mind he believes that this is normal. When he goes against others that are better than him and hit him a bit hard, he perceives what he is doing to others as the same. He cannot rationalize or understand any different. He just knows that he got hit and is afraid of the ones that he cannot dominate. Young kids don't get many concepts. All he knows is that he feels that there is someone he can beat or should beat just as he feels that he cannot beat or could beat the ones that dominate him.

To up and leave, teaches no one anything. Not your daughter, not the kid, and not even the instructor. You are teaching your daughter to be a victim. You are teaching her not to resolve the situation but to run when she finds herself in a tough spot. I am not saying tell her to straight up fight the kid, but she should let him know that she will not stand for his actions, without him even knowing that he is being told that.

My son is pretty good at TKD and takes it easy on just about everyone he spars with. Every now and then he will get a kid that gets a little too much confidence from his niceness and they try an hurt him or feel that they can go harder than normal to show that they can maybe beat him. He has no problem putting them back in place after that.

Also I can tell you that the worst people to spar or fight are the beginners. They kick low and are wild. They also tend to be a bit wilder vs. people they perceive to be inferior. They don't have better skills than anyone but they think they do. They block with elbows and knees, and better skilled people tend to get hurt because they are trying to control themselves. Again when this happens you as the partner can tell them to calm down, but some just have to be shown.

Don't run, but help show this kid that he needs to calm down. This kid will eventually learn. He is what we simply call hardheaded, and they always need to touch the fire to understand that it is hot.

This is just my .02, you have to do what you think is best for you in the end.


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## outsider0506 (Aug 31, 2012)

Trust me, my daughter beats him on points EVERY time, but not without taking a nasty bruising to the thighs every time. Mind you, this kid is supposed to be black belt level.  Earlier in the year I had told my daughter to kick him harder (but still in legal scoring zones) to make him stop and respect the training relationship. I think this only made the dynamic worse.

Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better? Last night I almost told her to purposely kick him in the groin, in the thighs and against the knees, but I stopped myself, being reminded that by going against these rules of sportsmanship I'm teaching my daughter an even worse life lesson. 

This discipline problem has been going on for a long time and has been unaddressed. 

Just as a note, this kid actually takes it easy on ANY boy he fights. 

It's very sad watching him kick girls in the thighs to make them hurt and then try to score points on their hogus. I think he has a particular thing out for my daughter because she doesn't let him push her around and always ends up getting the best of him.


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## Omar B (Aug 31, 2012)

If he takes it easy on the boys then he's a weak little bully who cannot measure up to the boys.  Or something else deeper is going on here, I don't know him so I cannot tell.  Psycho in training, nip it in the bud!

When I was a kid we had a bully in our class.  He was a big fat boy, bigger than all of us even though he was younger and lower belt level.  Just one of those thyroid cases who had pubes at like 8.  After a long time of us guys trying to be nice and even offering to be friends he just wouldn't respond to kindness.  So he got bashed around one Friday in class by somebody's little sister, came back the Monday one more time and never returned.


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## ATC (Aug 31, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> ...Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better?


Yes. Just enough that he gets the message. But the groin is a better target is he does not stop. And each time a little harder than the next. Then she can whisper in his ear, _"stop kicking me in the legs and I'll stop kicking you between yours"_. then have her smile at him.



> Just as a note, this kid actually takes it easy on ANY boy he fights.
> 
> It's very sad watching him kick girls in the thighs to make them hurt and then try to score points on their hogus. I think he has a particular thing out for my daughter because she doesn't let him push her around and always ends up getting the best of him.


Because he respect them. He also may be a bit intimidated by your daughter as well. That is OK, but still no excuse for his actions.

If the head instructor or any instructor is not going to fix the problem the she must fix it by helping them see that there is a problem.


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## eliteguardian (Aug 31, 2012)

If the master does nothing then I would have my daughter refuse to fight him any more, no need to stoop to his level. Call the parents maybe? If the master can not handle the problem that is.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> Trust me, my daughter beats him on points EVERY time, but not without taking a nasty bruising to the thighs every time. Mind you, this kid is supposed to be black belt level. Earlier in the year I had told my daughter to kick him harder (but still in legal scoring zones) to make him stop and respect the training relationship. I think this only made the dynamic worse.
> 
> Should I be telling my daughter to bash the kid in the face with her fist to make things better? Last night I almost told her to purposely kick him in the groin, in the thighs and against the knees, but I stopped myself, being reminded that by going against these rules of sportsmanship I'm teaching my daughter an even worse life lesson.
> 
> ...




If there's a long term discipline problem then the school isn't as good as you think it is. 
If your daughter is the one getting bruised and he's not she isn't getting the better of him. To my mind when defending yourself against an attacker and that's what he is, there are no rules of sportsmanship. I'd take ATC's very good advice and tell her to hurt him, I have done that and would/will again.


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## ATC (Aug 31, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> If there's a long term discipline problem then the school isn't as good as you think it is.
> If your daughter is the one getting bruised and he's not she isn't getting the better of him. To my mind *when defending yourself against an attacker* and that's what he is, *there are no rules of sportsmanship*...


True and Truer.


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## jks9199 (Aug 31, 2012)

Responding in kind (kicking him in the groin, punching him in the face, etc.) should be somewhere towards the end of responses, when other steps have failed.  I do agree that leaving shouldn't be an early choice, either -- but should stay on the table in case nothing else works.  

I'm not jumping to conclusions about the school or how it's based on one side of the story... but there are definite concerns.  Discuss it with the head instructor.


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## shesulsa (Aug 31, 2012)

I ride a fence between letting adults in charge handle the matter and letting HER handle the matter. The cold hard fact is that this kid doesn't respect females. Your daughter should not have to take that crap from anyone.  Even if all she does is approach him before they spar and say, "I'd appreciate it if you would show me the same respect you do the boys when we spar - but if you don't, I will fight you just as hard as you fight me." Then let her go.

Look, I've had grown men try to rock n roll with me while I was *pregnant* - they just had no respect for women - they were never taught, I guess. The last guy who did this ... well, I charged him and my buddy got between us. My teacher had the guy spar my buddy - 6'4" and 300 lbs.  Dude never came back.

Whatever happens, you still need to make the head instructor accountable. Whomever is in charge during the sparring class clearly hasn't the training to handle this kind of disciplinary problem - and they need it before being unleashed on the class without direct supervision. THAT is a head-of-school problem.


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## jks9199 (Aug 31, 2012)

The biggest problem I see with letting the girl handle it herself is her age; she's 9, he's about the same.  Add to that the structured environment of training, and I'm not quite willing to suggest that the problem be dealt with by themselves.  They're both "black belts" -- but that's a skill acknowledgement in this case, not maturity.  (Not trying to raise the whole child black belt thing; it's really a distraction here.)  If there is a good, skilled female adult instructor, there might be a chance to kind of put the boy in his place, but I really suspect that those issues go a lot deeper than will be easily addressed in class.  As in -- look to the home front; that's probably where he's learning it.

For the moment, blame goes to the instructional staff, ending at the head instructor. This is a mess that was allowed to develop, and will lead to the boy hurting a girl -- or getting hurt himself when someone stops putting up with it -- if it's not dealt with.


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## outsider0506 (Aug 31, 2012)

I remember a story a good friend and very famous TKD instructor told me about his competition team and having problems between a couple of the students. He regretted not kicking both of them to the curb immediately, no matter who started it or how skilled or important the players were. 

My daughter is already in the mindset that she will hurt this kid real bad if she gets in the ring with him again. If the head instructor does not address this issue, she will hurt this kid in ways that aren't legal in KKW TKD and then I am more than certain she'll get kicked to the curb after it is over. So I guess it doesn't matter what we/she does and it all falls on the head instructor to work this mess out.

For everyone's reference, my daughter does KKW/WTF TKD sparring. No SD focus whatsoever. Sparring is supposed to be controlled, technical and collaborative in training; but harder, and more brutal in competition. The head instructor said it before; your classmates are your family and you don't try to intentionally hurt your family. This kid just didn't get the message.


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## ATC (Sep 1, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> The biggest problem I see with letting the girl handle it herself is her age; she's 9, he's about the same.  Add to that the structured environment of training, and I'm not quite willing to suggest that the problem be dealt with by themselves.  They're both "black belts" -- but that's a skill acknowledgement in this case, not maturity.  (Not trying to raise the whole child black belt thing; it's really a distraction here.)  If there is a good, skilled female adult instructor, there might be a chance to kind of put the boy in his place, but I really suspect that those issues go a lot deeper than will be easily addressed in class.  As in -- look to the home front; that's probably where he's learning it.
> 
> For the moment, blame goes to the instructional staff, ending at the head instructor. This is a mess that was allowed to develop, and will lead to the boy hurting a girl -- or getting hurt himself when someone stops putting up with it -- if it's not dealt with.


Life lessons start early. She is learning hers, soon he will need to learn his. The longer you wait to learn the lessons the harsher the lesson.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 1, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> My daughter (9 years old) has been at her dojang for over a year after transferring from another dojang that closed. She has been a consistent sparring team member and a state champion in her division in both poomse and sparring. She has really liked being at the new club, with the exception of an 8 year old boy that is consistently out of control.



Ok.



> Whenever this boy gets paired up with a girl, he goes completely ballistic; throwing kicks full force with the intent of causing physical injury. Since his overall skill level is pretty low, he usually ends up kicking the girls in the legs and making them hurt, but not causing any real injury. Over the last 4 weeks he has started adding punching ONLY while fighting the girls.



Hes 8. I doubt Hes getting bloodlusty without provocation. Hes just going full force, not going for injury.
But I cant help but think that if His skill is lower, how is He able to hit Her? Has she not learnt to evade/dodge?

Punching is irrelevant. Hows it any different to kicking them?

Now, quesitons. 1: Is it against the rules to kick the legs? 2: Is he punching within the rules?
If the answer to 1 is yes, then consult the instructor.
If the answer to 2 is yes, thats irrelevant.
As for only when fighting girls, that may be incidental of it being easier, and their gender being coincidental. Some folks just spar hard when theyre with someone they can get away with it on.

Id suggest teaching her to counter kick though. A roundhouse kick to the legs normally leaves an opening for either a punch under the arm, or a roundhouse to the body. Is she actually fighting back? (Not to imply she isnt. Im just curious to know if hes feeding off of a lack of resistance)



> Last night, he went over the top and punched my daughter above the hogu and in the throat, knocking her to the floor gasping for breath and leaving a nasty bruise on the bones just below the trachea. An inch higher and my daughter would have gone to the hospital. I saw the shot and he did not pull it at all. Today she is still having pain swallowing.



Probably an accident. I dont see why he should pull the shot though - Is it non contact sparring? In any case, its poor accuracy. I know that it isnt unheard of to punch at the area just around the collar of a hogu, and that the risk that comes with that is going too high. This is incidental of the circumstances, which is him going hard on someone he can get away with it on, not incidental of escalation.



> I completely understand that this is a contact sport and have no problems with an occasional low kick, a hard head shot here or there, a body shot that went a little too hard for training, but this kid seems not to have any respect or regard for the safety of his training partners or he just hates girls. The rest of the kids in the class have a pretty healthy attitude for the training process and good control, except for this kid.



He doubt he hate girls. And if he does, the relevance is small. Id say he just likes going hard when he can get away with it, like a power trip.
As for control, what level of control is usually required, or isnt it so much required as expected by those who exercise it? These things can differ from place to place. But in any case, ill address this further in a second.



> I spoke to the head instructor (who was not present at the time) to voice my concerns. I told him that I don't want to see that boy paired up with my daughter again. This morning, I'm thinking if I don't see some improvement I'll have to withdraw my daughter from this dojang and seek training somewhere else even though I know the training would be inferior. I do take my daughter's safety seriously.



You made the right move - Trying to stop them getting partnered up.
You dont need to withdraw, just press the point. Hard. Dont get me wrong, your concerns are valid. And his reasons, whatever they might be, dont change the fact that your daughter obviously doesnt like to spar hard.



> Am I overreacting to the situation?


No.

Something to keep in mind: He may not actually be going as hard as she can, and if your daughter tries to hurt him, and does, he might come right back and turn it into a fight. If he likes going full force, responding with full force with intent to harm could cause him to go even harder to defend his perceived strength and whatnot. Be careful with fighting fire with fire, because if she could just win, just like that, shed be able to just casually hit him with full control enough to stop him being able to kick her at all. I wouldnt advise thinking that hurting him would help anything, i cant help but think it could worsen things.
Especially if she decides to forgo the rules. Because then HE will forgo the rules, and you have no idea what hell do when it turns into Self Defense for Him.
Its a last resort, keep it that way.

Ill also note ive already read the answers to some of my questions in the thread. Im not asking you, im 'asking' just to get you (whoever is reading) to ask themself and follow my train of thought, which may well be wrong. But im just taking a guess here, and guessing he goes hard on people he can get away with it on.


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## chrispillertkd (Sep 1, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> The biggest problem I see with letting the girl handle it herself is her age; she's 9, he's about the same. Add to that the structured environment of training, and I'm not quite willing to suggest that the problem be dealt with by themselves. They're both "black belts" -- but that's a skill acknowledgement in this case, not maturity. (Not trying to raise the whole child black belt thing; it's really a distraction here.) If there is a good, skilled female adult instructor, there might be a chance to kind of put the boy in his place, but I really suspect that those issues go a lot deeper than will be easily addressed in class. As in -- look to the home front; that's probably where he's learning it.



I pretty much totally agree with this sentiment. There's no easy answer for a situation like this, really, but I would err on the side of caution when it comes to children "settling matters" themselves (and I come from the "Don't start it, but finish it" school of thought when it comes to kids fighting). The immaturity of the two parties coupled with the training setting would make me, as a parent, quite leery of suggesting this as an option. I've seen people get "taught a lesson" on the floor, and I've been told by my instructor to make sure someone got put in their place because they were hurting other students when sparring. It's just not something I'd want my kid doing at that age. (I'm not saying it should never be done, but the fact that we're dealing with kids and this is a school where adult supervision is supposed to be present might send the wrong message.)

The problem starting at home may well be true. And herein lies another problem. The parents are the primary educators of the children. They have the right and the responsibility of teaching them how to be the adults they will be when they grow up. Any other teacher works at their good pleasure; they don't supplant parental authority. Any sort of interceding by the instructor must not _intentionally_ cast the child's parent's in a bad light. 



> For the moment, blame goes to the instructional staff, ending at the head instructor. This is a mess that was allowed to develop, and will lead to the boy hurting a girl -- or getting hurt himself when someone stops putting up with it -- if it's not dealt with.



Indeed. The head instructor should lay down the law in no uncertain terms. If need be the offending child should not be allowed to spar again until he can convince the instructor that such behavior will not be repeated.

Pax,

Chris


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## Kinghercules (Sep 1, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> My daughter (9 years old) has been at her dojang for over a year after transferring from another dojang that closed. She has been a consistent sparring team member and a state champion in her division in both poomse and sparring. She has really liked being at the new club, with the exception of an 8 year old boy that is consistently out of control.
> 
> Whenever this boy gets paired up with a girl, he goes completely ballistic; throwing kicks full force with the intent of causing physical injury. Since his overall skill level is pretty low, he usually ends up kicking the girls in the legs and making them hurt, but not causing any real injury. Over the last 4 weeks he has started adding punching ONLY while fighting the girls.
> 
> ...




Questions:
1. Why did you sign your child up in the 1st place?
2. Is she there to learn ballet or self defense?
3. Is this a McDojo?


Im a realist.  I dont train or teach as a hobby.  I know for many ppl now a days that this is only a hobby and a sport for kids.  For me it was never that.  My mom signed me up when I was 6 cause I use to get picked on and beat up in the hood and at school, so she took me to the dojo to learn how to fight.  Today I teach kids how to fight plain and simple.  They learn how to control their temper, ignore teasing....etc but the main thing is that they learn how to fight.  If they get hit....block next time.


But as a parent I understand how you feel.  That child shouldve had his belt taken away.  He shouldve been reprimanded in front of the class. My daughter is 6yrs old and I had trained her.   Ive seen older kids and higher belts pop her kinda hard and it pissed me off so I told her when kids wanna be aggressive with you hit them with full power.  LOL!!  It works.  Because the kids see she cant be bullied.  _Yeah you should talk to the teacher and say they are being too aggressive but at the same time you want your child to learn how to block and move. _You said you can take your girl to another school but it wont be as good.  So I think you would have to believe that the instructor has to know what he or she is doing but it sounds like they have a problem with control.  And I believe that comes from wearing the sparring gear.  We never wore sparring gear and Ive never been hurt in class.  But many schools today dont train without gear so kids dont know how to control their kicks and punches.


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## Kinghercules (Sep 1, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> I remember a story a good friend and very famous TKD instructor told me about his competition team and having problems between a couple of the students. He regretted not kicking both of them to the curb immediately, no matter who started it or how skilled or important the players were.
> 
> My daughter is already in the mindset that she will hurt this kid real bad if she gets in the ring with him again. If the head instructor does not address this issue, she will hurt this kid in ways that aren't legal in KKW TKD and then I am more than certain she'll get kicked to the curb after it is over. So I guess it doesn't matter what we/she does and it all falls on the head instructor to work this mess out.
> 
> For everyone's reference, my daughter does KKW/WTF TKD sparring. No SD focus whatsoever. Sparring is supposed to be controlled, technical and collaborative in training; but harder, and more brutal in competition. The head instructor said it before; your classmates are your family and you don't try to intentionally hurt your family. This kid just didn't get the message.



Sorry but I agree.  LOL!!
Hell if the kid aint learning to control his kicks and punches then she needs to pop him. *If* she has the skills to do it.
If yall already sat down with the teacher with the boy then the next step is to handle it in the ring.  
Whats the next step?
Pull her outta the class and find another school?


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## Kinghercules (Sep 1, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> For everyone's reference, my daughter does KKW/WTF TKD sparring. No SD focus whatsoever.



LOL!
Funny that you said that.  Im a contract instructor with a couple of school that do KKW TKD and they hired me because their kids could fight their way outta paper bag to save their life.  And I dont understand how in the hell these schools come about.


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## outsider0506 (Sep 1, 2012)

I'm not sure why there's always the presumption that all KKW schools suck all students in those schools suck... The focus is just on something other than SD. I'm also not sure why every thread on this board always goes back to the Sport vs SD discussion...

If there were no more KKW/WTF there wouldn't be TKD in the Olympics. TKD in the Olympics is free publicity for both sport focused and SD focused TKD schools. USAT and KKW/WTF schools in the United States of America produced 2 bronze medalists this Olympics, so ALL WTF/KKW schools are useless?


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## chrispillertkd (Sep 1, 2012)

Don't feed the trolls.

Pax,

Chris


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## outsider0506 (Sep 1, 2012)

Thanks. Point taken!


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> I'm not sure why there's always the presumption that all KKW schools suck all students in those schools suck... The focus is just on something other than SD. *I'm also not sure why every thread on this board always goes back to the Sport vs SD discussion...*
> 
> If there were no more KKW/WTF there wouldn't be TKD in the Olympics. TKD in the Olympics is free publicity for both sport focused and SD focused TKD schools. USAT and KKW/WTF schools in the United States of America produced 2 bronze medalists this Olympics, so ALL WTF/KKW schools are useless?



I think it's because of things like this, that _someone who does martial arts is getting hurt when they shouldn't be_. I don't think it should be sport OR SD, a good balance of both would be good thougheven fot hose who do a martial art purely for sport.


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## jks9199 (Sep 1, 2012)

Y'know, I think the sport/self defense distinction is moot here.  First, the OP said that's not what it's about.  Second, we're talking 8 and 9 year olds.  Third, we're talking about a sparring exercise.  Fourth, *we're talking 8 and 9 year old kids*.  

Sparring is a controlled practice; the point isn't to cripple your partner, but to practice in an unrehearsed situation.  When you add the sports focus, it becomes an exercise to prepare the participants for competition.  Boxers don't spar full contact with each other regularly.  Football teams don't spend the week running full contact plays against each other to prep for the game.  And they practice within the rules for their sport...  It seems, from the OP, that this boy's got a problem.  It may be bullying.  It may be misogyny.  It may be simply that he's gotten away with it...  But if he does the same in a tournament, he'll be disqualified, right?  And he's going to hurt another student.  

The instructional staff needs to rein him in or get rid of him.  He's 8.  My vote goes for rein him in, unless it's going to be a fruitless enterprise.  And maybe review their practices and procedures to avoid the problem in the future...


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## granfire (Sep 2, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> I remember a story a good friend and very famous TKD instructor told me about his competition team and having problems between a couple of the students. He regretted not kicking both of them to the curb immediately, no matter who started it or how skilled or important the players were.
> 
> My daughter is already in the mindset that she will hurt this kid real bad if she gets in the ring with him again. If the head instructor does not address this issue, she will hurt this kid in ways that aren't legal in KKW TKD and then I am more than certain she'll get kicked to the curb after it is over. So I guess it doesn't matter what we/she does and it all falls on the head instructor to work this mess out.
> 
> For everyone's reference, my daughter does KKW/WTF TKD sparring. No SD focus whatsoever. Sparring is supposed to be controlled, technical and collaborative in training; but harder, and more brutal in competition. The head instructor said it before; your classmates are your family and you don't try to intentionally hurt your family. This kid just didn't get the message.




Well, not TKD but bully related.

My kid is big for his age, always was. 
And while he did earn his BB the hard way (flunked a couple of times) he is not a fighter.

There have been incidences in school that were borderline. The kid got bullied. He ALWAYS had standing permission to take care of business. 
That means we do not start trouble, but we mean to see it through.
He was/is always worried about the consequences, of being suspended or expelled to which I told him (and would tell again should the need arise)
'This would be a suspension we would celebrate!' 

You have done the right thing as parent, you pitched the ball into the instructor's court.
If I were in your shoes, I'd tell my kid to throw the rules out and make sure the point comes across: You hurt me I hurt you back. 
Sparring has rules, one breaks the rules there have to be consequences.
While there might not be SD training in the dojang, that does not mean the little girl has to abandon self preservation (BTW, a punch to the throat can do a lot more than just send your girl to the hospital! It can be potentially lethal! And from my mom who is a retired healthcare professional, it does not take a whole lot either!) 

There are individuals that have a problem with the opposite gender. But frankly, I am a bit concerned that the kid is only 9...the guys who have to kick the women in the boobs I have encountered are usually in puberty...or older...concerning, to be sure!


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## granfire (Sep 2, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Y'know, I think the sport/self defense distinction is moot here.  First, the OP said that's not what it's about.  Second, we're talking 8 and 9 year olds.  Third, we're talking about a sparring exercise.  Fourth, *we're talking 8 and 9 year old kids*.
> 
> Sparring is a controlled practice; the point isn't to cripple your partner, but to practice in an unrehearsed situation.  When you add the sports focus, it becomes an exercise to prepare the participants for competition.  Boxers don't spar full contact with each other regularly.  Football teams don't spend the week running full contact plays against each other to prep for the game.  And they practice within the rules for their sport...  It seems, from the OP, that this boy's got a problem.  It may be bullying.  It may be misogyny.  It may be simply that he's gotten away with it...  But if he does the same in a tournament, he'll be disqualified, right?  And he's going to hurt another student.
> 
> The instructional staff needs to rein him in or get rid of him.  He's 8.  My vote goes for rein him in, unless it's going to be a fruitless enterprise.  And maybe review their practices and procedures to avoid the problem in the future...



yes, little kids, that is worrysome to me...


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## Markku P (Sep 3, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> Am I overreacting to the situation?



No, You are not overreacting. You must talk with Chief instructor and the owner. If something like this happens in my school. I would talk with a kid and his parents, If he would continue act same way then he wouldn't be allowed to do any sparring. If nothing else helps then I just would refund the money and ask them to move another school. ( but nothing like this never happened to me )


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## Master Dan (Sep 4, 2012)

Wanted to get back on this topic one more time. While sparring needs to be completely controlled in a safe and proper manner as the students approach older physical and mental development they need to be able to cope with both pain and intimidation. I can't allow a student here to recieve a black belt if they cannot infact deal with both physical and mental conflict. This means learning to handle it on thier own verbally or physically if necessary. In 30 years of teaching full contact we have had far less injuries than any of the other sports but bruizes some even bleeding happens first the person in charge needs to have all medical first aid and bodly fluid training and second young students need to learn how to overcome injuries that are recoverable and continue on with out drama and gain experience, wisdom and survivability from that. Getting a black belt here means you have a target on your back and people will try you. An instructor can help the student to cope with an injury metally and physically or make it worse.

I have a grandfather and grand son who he is raising with out any help the grand father was severely abused as a child and has many issues related to stress and coping. Both of them have come along way and they are testing for 1 Dan next month hence we are doing alot of real 4 on one attacks and it stops when they are put to ground. We are trying to get them to 30 seconds in the process people get some minor damge. The grandson is getting pulled muscles jambed toes even bleeding tonails at times. The Grand father gets really worked up and over projects his emotions into the 14 year old which makes the injury worse. He did this again last week and I had to pull him out and explain that he was impeeding his growth and recovery by projecting his mental issues into him. His injuries are not life threatening and infact he needs to learn how to recover and continue to defend himself your over reacting is feeding his fear and pain. The grandson heard me talk and he went from crying to getting over it and begging to go in three more times with better progress and when asked and examined he had little or no pain at that time. Constructive pain can be a good teacher I see absolutely no point in giving black belts to people who cannot truly defend themselves mentally or physically. The grandfather like many in his culture loose the battle when it comes to basic life and coping skills. Now with much patiences on my part he has been able to deal with abusive managers at his job and been promoted to replacing them with a 40% raise in income and they are going to move from a small apartment with no kitchen for the last 3 years to a new beautifull 3 bedroom home being finished this month and both thier futures are very bright. I have had the grand son since he was 6 and he is now 14 just moved out of grade school to the big house grades 7-12 he is holding his own with guys alot bigger than him. His father Korean and mother Eskimo both abandoned him long ago and it weighs heavily on him at times his wanting to live with his mother in an extremely remote village far away with a boy friend who would abuse him and virtually no hope of better education and support like here. But in the last year he has matured alot and the mother after visiting agrees he is better off. 

Like any only child he has been our baby and we all tend to want to protect them from any harm but its truly awesome to see him and other children as well as adults benefit from tradition training that feeds the whole person not just McDoJo belts and medals that don't help a person feed themselves and thier family and have a good life


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## granfire (Sep 4, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Wanted to get back on this topic one more time. While sparring needs to be completely controlled in a safe and proper manner as the students approach older physical and mental development they need to be able to cope with both pain and intimidation. I can't allow a student here to recieve a black belt if they cannot infact deal with both physical and mental conflict. This means learning to handle it on thier own verbally or physically if necessary. In 30 years of teaching full contact we have had far less injuries than any of the other sports but bruizes some even bleeding happens first the person in charge needs to have all medical first aid and bodly fluid training and second young students need to learn how to overcome injuries that are recoverable and continue on with out drama and gain experience, wisdom and survivability from that. Getting a black belt here means you have a target on your back and people will try you. An instructor can help the student to cope with an injury metally and physically or make it worse.
> 
> I have a grandfather and grand son who he is raising with out any help the grand father was severely abused as a child and has many issues related to stress and coping. Both of them have come along way and they are testing for 1 Dan next month hence we are doing alot of real 4 on one attacks and it stops when they are put to ground. We are trying to get them to 30 seconds in the process people get some minor damge. The grandson is getting pulled muscles jambed toes even bleeding tonails at times. The Grand father gets really worked up and over projects his emotions into the 14 year old which makes the injury worse. He did this again last week and I had to pull him out and explain that he was impeeding his growth and recovery by projecting his mental issues into him. His injuries are not life threatening and infact he needs to learn how to recover and continue to defend himself your over reacting is feeding his fear and pain. The grandson heard me talk and he went from crying to getting over it and begging to go in three more times with better progress and when asked and examined he had little or no pain at that time. Constructive pain can be a good teacher I see absolutely no point in giving black belts to people who cannot truly defend themselves mentally or physically. The grandfather like many in his culture loose the battle when it comes to basic life and coping skills. Now with much patiences on my part he has been able to deal with abusive managers at his job and been promoted to replacing them with a 40% raise in income and they are going to move from a small apartment with no kitchen for the last 3 years to a new beautifull 3 bedroom home being finished this month and both thier futures are very bright. I have had the grand son since he was 6 and he is now 14 just moved out of grade school to the big house grades 7-12 he is holding his own with guys alot bigger than him. His father Korean and mother Eskimo both abandoned him long ago and it weighs heavily on him at times his wanting to live with his mother in an extremely remote village far away with a boy friend who would abuse him and virtually no hope of better education and support like here. But in the last year he has matured alot and the mother after visiting agrees he is better off.
> 
> Like any only child he has been our baby and we all tend to want to protect them from any harm but its truly awesome to see him and other children as well as adults benefit from tradition training that feeds the whole person not just McDoJo belts and medals that don't help a person feed themselves and thier family and have a good life




well, yes and no:
You have to take your lumps and bruises, that comes with the territory.
In your case nobody is deliberately out to beat your two students up or inflict harm.

In the question at hand is a young child with issues breaking the rules that make the game of sparing somewhat controlled (I am sure that in your Dojang deliberate punches to the throat are not welcome either...I know it is a legal target, but rather dangerous and unusual...) 
if we went all out all the time with the intend to hurt our training partners, we'd all be beat up and on disability. 
Yes, this is a martial art, but it is also a forum where you have to have respect for your opponent.
And I think in this case the young gentleman has not realized that the counterparts he likes to beat up on could stomp a mud hole in his behind and walk it dry. 
And the realization might not be pretty.
Best case scenario he realizes that somebody might just be badder than he is. 
Worst case scenario? He could plow a gasket.

I sure am eager to hear the update on the story.


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## Master Dan (Sep 5, 2012)

granfire said:


> well, yes and no:
> You have to take your lumps and bruises, that comes with the territory.
> In your case nobody is deliberately out to beat your two students up or inflict harm.
> 
> ...



there are no legal contact to the throat not sure where you came up with that infact while I prefer to teach controlled contact to the head in strick competition rules below certain rank and age they cannot even fain any atack to the head area with out warning or disqualification. And I am not talking about 8-9 year olds but 14 and up self defense its real and hard and they have to survive not being taken down for 30 seconds with some poeple outweighing them considerable. But even in sparring some minor injuries happen and I am only pointing out extreme is bad either way pushing people beyond what is necessary or being over protective retards development as well. I think the other kid holding back not wanting to hurt the boy is good character but what needs to happen is not allow unqualified people to supervise sparring weather the girl stays leaves or fights back will not resolve the issue of improper supervision of minors in a contact sport


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## jks9199 (Sep 5, 2012)

In all the talk about toughening up, we're losing sight of a big detail.  These kids are *under 10 years old*.  And this is a problem that's grown over several months, with the boy being allowed to get away with it.  I can easily see and understand a level of "well, it's a contact sport" -- but there was a supervision failure that allowed him to develop a habit or routine of fighting hard against girls, but not boys.  I'm not saying he's a bully.  I'm not saying the school is careless.  I am saying that they have an obligation to address the problem, and that it goes beyond "toughening the kids up."  The girl was injured, not simply hurt.  Her throat was still sore a day or more later.  That could have been a major injury.


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## Balrog (Sep 5, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> Trust me, my daughter beats him on points EVERY time, but not without taking a nasty bruising to the thighs every time. Mind you, this kid is supposed to be black belt level.  Earlier in the year I had told my daughter to kick him harder (but still in legal scoring zones) to make him stop and respect the training relationship. I think this only made the dynamic worse.


As others have said, this needs to be discussed with the instructor.

Having said that.....I would not stop your daughter from sparring him.  However, I would tell her - and tell the instructor this as well - the first time he whacks her in the leg, she should warn him to watch his control and strike to legal target areas.  If he does it again, she should knock him on his butt, hard, and continue from that point to knock him down every time he gets up until the instructor tells them to stop.

Some people just don't get the message.  It's like whacking a mule between the ears with a 2x4 - sometimes, you just gotta get their attention.


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## Gorilla (Sep 5, 2012)

I have always allowed my kids to handle these things themselves.  Being able to handle confrontation is lesson best learned early!

They have been able to talk about it in most cases but retaliation has been a solution on more than one occasion!


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## granfire (Sep 10, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I have always allowed my kids to handle these things themselves.  Being able to handle confrontation is lesson best learned early!
> 
> They have been able to talk about it in most cases but retaliation has been a solution on more than one occasion!



I am all for that, too.
However girls tend to be less assertive, and then our society shuns people who take care of their own business...you know, your kid gets attacked but still suspended because he fought back...

I think the parental input is still needed, especially at this early stage.

(I am waiting for an update tho...)


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## Master Dan (Sep 10, 2012)

I think it was covered and everyone agrees that this is for kids under 10 so the first issue was bad supervision and that should have been addressed. Also most parents now days watch classes to get an idea if thier kid fits in so why here? and I like many others would like an update did you talk to assistant in charge or the Dojang owner or both? and if so what result. If my kid was proficient I would have had her knock him on his butt with legal contact long time ago.


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## outsider0506 (Sep 10, 2012)

I spoke to the head instructor who in turn had a private conversation with the boy; not sure what he said to him. He also proceeded to have a long conversation with entire kids competition class about in-class etiquette. He told them that it should be an extremely rare circumstance that you make face or throat contact with your hand in Olympic TKD due to the rule set in place. If it does happen it is ALWAYS the fault of the puncher and will usually result in a gamjeung penalty in competition and disqualification if it happens twice or on-purpose. He also re-emphasized that the training relationship in class is meant to be collaborative learning; not combative nor creating an escalating self-defense situation between students.

The boy is now on probation and has been separated to only spar with other boys. Apparently this isn't the first time this boy has been called on his behavior.


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## jks9199 (Sep 10, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> I spoke to the head instructor who in turn had a private conversation with the boy; not sure what he said to him. He also proceeded to have a long conversation with entire kids competition class about in-class etiquette. He told them that it should be an extremely rare circumstance that you make face or throat contact with your hand in Olympic TKD due to the rule set in place. If it does happen it is ALWAYS the fault of the puncher and will usually result in a gamjeung penalty in competition and disqualification if it happens twice or on-purpose. He also re-emphasized that the training relationship in class is meant to be collaborative learning; not combative nor creating an escalating self-defense situation between students.
> 
> The boy is now on probation and has been separated to only spar with other boys. Apparently this isn't the first time this boy has been called on his behavior.


Thanks for the update; sounds like the problem is being addressed.  I do disagree slightly with the "it's always the puncher's fault" line. Clashes happen, and defenders sometimes move into an attack or simply fail to block when they should.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 11, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I have always allowed my kids to handle these things themselves. Being able to handle confrontation is lesson best learned early!
> 
> They have been able to talk about it in most cases but retaliation has been a solution on more than one occasion!



So now we're teaching children that retaliation is the solution?  What is the proper retaliation for a punch in the throat?  Blow out his knee?

No, I'm not suggesting that kids (or people in general) become door mats.  But knee-jerk responses are poor life-lessons.


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## granfire (Sep 11, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> So now we're teaching children that retaliation is the solution?  What is the proper retaliation for a punch in the throat?  Blow out his knee?
> 
> No, I'm not suggesting that kids (or people in general) become door mats.  But knee-jerk responses are poor life-lessons.



I don't see where anybody was suggesting retaliation...or going for underhanded  - and illegal - targets...

But not reacting to a threat is often seen as weakness and invitation to escalate the unwelcome behavior.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 11, 2012)

granfire said:


> I don't see where anybody was suggesting retaliation...or going for underhanded  - and illegal - targets...
> 
> But not reacting to a threat is often seen as weakness and invitation to escalate the unwelcome behavior.



Was this not the message in the post I quoted;



> Originally Posted by *Gorilla*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I understand from this post is;

A.  We let 10 year old kids handle things themselves.

B.  Retaliation is being taught as the solution to these types of situations in place of going to an instructor and/or parent.

C.  Proper supervision on the part of the instructor(s) and proper instruction on the part of the instructor(s) and instructor/parental interaction for the purposes of discipline take a back seat to getting even.

Teaching retaliation as a solution to children is putting them on the wrong path and setting them up for failure, particularly when they become older and these patterns have had the chance to become ingrained.  Now we have young adults who have been taught it is okay to retaliate to solve problems rather than seeking a better/higher path.  In the above OP example, this is apparently not the first time this child has been warned about this conduct.  And it has resulted in injury and could have easily been much more tragic.  Yet the warning(s) went unheeded and the situation was allowed to worsen.  This is a complete failure on the part of the instructor(s) of this school as well as the parent(s) of this boy.  The instructor(s) and the boys parents have failed the boy as well as failed the girl and her parents.


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## Master Dan (Sep 11, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Was this not the message in the post I quoted;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I understand points on both sides but!!! in the real world when it comes down to protect yourself from injury 10 or not need to do what is necessary to protect themselve now if they feel they can take a bruize rather than retaliate fine but if needed defend yourself and mom and dad back you up period. I think the parent looked at this as being a more than once problem and should have stepped in sooner I would have or pulled my child or had her put him down end of discussion there will be a time mom and dad or no other adult will be there what are you going to do? walk or defend yourself period if you cannot get an adult to step in. We have faith in your good judgment and will back you up.


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## granfire (Sep 11, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Was this not the message in the post I quoted;
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have read the same post and I did not come to the same conclusion.

As a matter of fact you pretty much make my point though of society discouraging taking actions in your own defense. 
After all, when you defend yourself you are more likely to be seen throwing a punch and thus be subject to punishment. 

And somewhere along the line it is unhealthy to lay down and contemplate who failed whom. You can answer a threat without hitting - literally - below the belt.


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## shesulsa (Sep 11, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Yet the warning(s) went unheeded and the situation was allowed to worsen.  This is a complete failure on the part of the instructor(s) of this school as well as the parent(s) of this boy.  The instructor(s) and the boys parents have failed the boy as well as failed the girl and her parents.



Harsh words for people unmet.

I try to be careful in judging people I've not met and after stories from which I've only heard one side. 

There are so many dynamics at play in this situation it really is not funny. I don't see this as a cut-and-dried tit-for-tat conflict.  The boy has some kind of issue with females and where that comes from may or may not come from the home. HE may have been a victim from some kind of female power-over figure in the past.  I will say I believe that *based on what we've been told here* it sounds as though the instructors at this school were lax in their supervisory duties of this boy.

I'm *hoping* some psychology will be engaged here in how to teach him to be a good partner, perhaps that it's a privilege to spar everyone in class which requires self-control.

As far as the girl, I think it's crucial to teach children - AND adults - *when* returning blows is appropriate. I too am not a fan of retaliatory action, but in a situation such as this, they are peers and to teach a child that ignoring a situation is the high road might be well-intentioned but very misguided.  She *will* face this again with someone else, if not in class then in life and she will need to know that you simply cannot ignore all physical challenges, especially from males.

It is a VERY, VERY fine line and it must be walked upon carefully.  I don't envy this mom nor her daughter.  I hope she knows, however, that this is the path of the warrior and it is a privileged path to trod. It takes MUCH responsibility.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 12, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> ...in the real world when it comes down to *protect* yourself from injury...





			
				granfire said:
			
		

> As a matter of fact you pretty much make my point though of society discouraging *taking actions in your own defense*.



There is a difference between self-defense and retaliation.  This isn't a situation where the girl is being mugged and has to do whatever is necessary to protect herself.  It is a situation where she got zinged, fell down and the situation is over.  Retaliation implies either she gets back up and bloodies his nose/blows out his knee/kicks him in the groin etc or the situation is ongoing and she does the same.  Neither is correct.  Two wrongs NEVER make a right.  Once again, to be crystal clear, in a SD situation all bets are off and one needs to be able and willing to use the level of force needed to survive the situation.  SD situations occur outside the school in an uncontrolled, unsupervised setting with no rule set being observed.  This was not the case in the OP situation described.  She was unable to protect herself in a controlled and supposedly supervised setting.  She got hurt.  She fell down.  Situation is regrettable but it is now over.  Retaliation = revenge.  Civilized people don't seek revenge.  Adults should not be teaching children to seek revenge.  

Now take a situation where the boy puts her in a headlock and is currently choking her out...it is an ongoing situation.  She can then do what is needed to defend herself in this ongoing situation.  That isn't retaliation, that is self-defense.  But again, in the OP, the situation was over and done.  Suggesting that retaliation is a solution, particularly from adults to children is wrong.  I honestly can't believe it was suggested or that it is a point of discussion.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 12, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Harsh words for people unmet.



An honest appraisal based upon the provided information.



> There are so many dynamics at play in this situation it really is not  funny. I don't see this as a cut-and-dried tit-for-tat conflict.  The  boy has some kind of issue with females and where that comes from may or  may not come from the home. HE may have been a victim from some kind of  female power-over figure in the past.



While it is clear the boy has issues, and while healing these issues should be a priority, it isn't the job of the instructor and/or the girl's parent.  It is the job of the instructor to provide a safe training environment.  If he/she doesn't then they have opened themselves up tremendously.  Since this issue, according to the original OP had already been recognized but not rectified, it is a failure on the part of the instructor which resulted in injury to a 10yr old girl.  So, the instructor has failed his student in this situation.


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## shesulsa (Sep 12, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> There is a difference between self-defense and retaliation.  This isn't a situation where the girl is being mugged and has to do whatever is necessary to protect herself.  It is a situation where she got zinged, fell down and the situation is over.  Retaliation implies either she gets back up and bloodies his nose/blows out his knee/kicks him in the groin etc or the situation is ongoing and she does the same.  Neither is correct.  Two wrongs NEVER make a right.  Once again, to be crystal clear, in a SD situation all bets are off and one needs to be able and willing to use the level of force needed to survive the situation.  SD situations occur outside the school in an uncontrolled, unsupervised setting with no rule set being observed.  This was not the case in the OP situation described.  She was unable to protect herself in a controlled and supposedly supervised setting.  She got hurt.  She fell down.  Situation is regrettable but it is now over.  Retaliation = revenge.  Civilized people don't seek revenge.  Adults should not be teaching children to seek revenge.
> 
> Now take a situation where the boy puts her in a headlock and is currently choking her out...it is an ongoing situation.  She can then do what is needed to defend herself in this ongoing situation.  That isn't retaliation, that is self-defense.  But again, in the OP, the situation was over and done.  Suggesting that retaliation is a solution, particularly from adults to children is wrong.  I honestly can't believe it was suggested or that it is a point of discussion.



Hm. To me, it sounds like an ongoing problem.

It could be a drastic error to assume that this boy is in control just because the environment was a dojang. Indeed, if supervision was lacking, either in number or in talent, this was not controlled enough.  I've seen people of all ages have this problem before and it will go unchecked until this is a person who represents martial arts poorly - the kind who gets arrested and gives all of us a bad name.  He needs to be checked.

The very best thing would be if this boy were not allowed to spar PERIOD and took private lessons from the master so that he could understand, without classroom embarrassment, the error of his ways and perhaps the source could be discovered.  Without serious attention, this will be a serious problem and he will have some level of skill in fighting and a black belt out in the world.

Bullies exist on the mat, sir. Some, very unfortunately, only speak one language and sometimes one must speak to them IN IT.  

I also think you may be confusing retaliatory defense and revenge.  If this young man continues to hurt this girl and go overboard with force and this young lady returns blows such that he gets the idea she is not to be trifled with, this may be the only message he understands.  This is retaliatory defense.  Please don't mistake me here - this is a VERY regrettable and undesirable situation.  If this young lady were to seek this boy out to give back what she got, then THAT is revenge.

Striving for the ideal is great. Reality is not.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 12, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Hm. To me, it sounds like an ongoing problem.



Let me clarify to make sure we're on the same page.  The problem the boy is having with aggression towards girls is indeed an ongoing problem.  What I was referring to was that the strike that caused the initial injury to the girl was over.  He hit her, she fell down and she was injured.  Situation is over as far as this specific injury.  At this point, she is on the floor and no further threat (according to the description in the OP) is active.  A prior poster commented that he teaches retaliation as a solution.  This isn't a solution in this scenario.  The parent stepping in and addressing it with the instructor...or the instructor taking steps to address the situation is the solution as far as safety in the school.  The instructor failed the first time around and is lucky the girl wasn't seriously harmed.  But he/she was negligent in allowing the situation to repeat after knowing of the boys aggression.  The situation, according to the OP has finally been addressed where the boy is no longer allowed to spar with girls.  As far as school safety, the problem has been resolved (unless the boy starts going after girls in some other way).  As far as the boys issues with girls, no this hasn't been resolved, but this is outside of the instructors responsibilities.  

My main point is that the situation was resolved correctly as far as the OP is concerned.  They brought the matter to the attention of the instructor and expressed their concern.  The situation has been finally corrected as far a safety in the school.  Retaliation, as suggested by another poster, is not a solution and in fact could have amplified the existing problem with possible tragic results for someone i.e some child.  Had the girl sought revenge, as suggested by a member here, and jumped up and 'taught the boy a lesson'...would it have solved the problem?  If the boy has issues with girls, would receiving an injury at the hand of a girl solved the problem?  Or would it have amplified the problem?  Bottom line, revenge isn't a solution.  And it has nothing to do with active self-defense in a right-now situation.


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## ATC (Sep 12, 2012)

outsider0506 said:


> I spoke to the head instructor who in turn had a private conversation with the boy; not sure what he said to him. He also proceeded to have a long conversation with entire kids competition class about in-class etiquette. He told them that it should be an extremely rare circumstance that you make face or throat contact with your hand in Olympic TKD due to the rule set in place. If it does happen it is ALWAYS the fault of the puncher and will usually result in a gamjeung penalty in competition and disqualification if it happens twice or on-purpose. He also re-emphasized that the training relationship in class is meant to be collaborative learning; not combative nor creating an escalating self-defense situation between students.
> 
> The boy is now on probation and has been separated to only spar with other boys. Apparently this isn't the first time this boy has been called on his behavior.


Good news indeed. I am pleased that things worked out in a positive manner. It is good to see the instructor step in and set the expectations and draw clear lines of behaviour.


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## ATC (Sep 12, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> There is a difference between self-defense and retaliation.  This isn't a situation where the girl is being mugged and has to do whatever is necessary to protect herself.  It is a situation where she got zinged, fell down and the situation is over.  Retaliation implies either she gets back up and bloodies his nose/blows out his knee/kicks him in the groin etc or the situation is ongoing and she does the same.  Neither is correct.  Two wrongs NEVER make a right.  Once again, to be crystal clear, in a SD situation all bets are off and one needs to be able and willing to use the level of force needed to survive the situation.  SD situations occur outside the school in an uncontrolled, unsupervised setting with no rule set being observed.  This was not the case in the OP situation described.  She was unable to protect herself in a controlled and supposedly supervised setting.  She got hurt.  She fell down.  Situation is regrettable but it is now over.  Retaliation = revenge.  Civilized people don't seek revenge.  Adults should not be teaching children to seek revenge.
> 
> Now take a situation where the boy puts her in a headlock and is currently choking her out...it is an ongoing situation.  She can then do what is needed to defend herself in this ongoing situation.  That isn't retaliation, that is self-defense.  But again, in the OP, the situation was over and done.  Suggesting that retaliation is a solution, particularly from adults to children is wrong.  I honestly can't believe it was suggested or that it is a point of discussion.



I teach my kids to retaliate all the time. If someone smiles and says hello to them then they must do like wise and smile back and say hello to them. Retaliation is not simply a bad term. Adults simply choose to only see the bad.



> Word Origin & History
> 
> Retaliation
> 1580s, from L.L. retaliare "pay back in kind," from re- "back" + L. talio "exaction of payment in kind," from talis "suchlike." *Originally used both in good and evil Senses.*



I don't think he meant retaliation in your same sense. To retaliate could simply mean to confront the person. Example - My retaliation to him hitting me was to ask him to stop. If things keep going on with no change then you may need to escalate your retaliation. But teaching kids to stand up for themselves and when left no choice defend themselves, I see nothing wrong with that.

My Son got punched in the face at school by a kid he beat in basketball. He stood there took the punch then looked the kid right in the eyes and said very calmly "Dude, what's your problem". That was enough retaliation to back the kid down and then have him apologize for what he did. My son could have wipe the floor with the kid but did not. He was 10 at the time. He solved the problem on his own without my help. But was taught by me how to solve the problem before it got worse. I think this is what G meant with his post. Not what you have in mind.


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## shesulsa (Sep 12, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let me clarify to make sure we're on the same page.  The problem the boy is having with aggression towards girls is indeed an ongoing problem.  What I was referring to was that the strike that caused the initial injury to the girl was over.  He hit her, she fell down and she was injured.  Situation is over as far as this specific injury.  At this point, she is on the floor and no further threat (according to the description in the OP) is active.



The end of an incident ... is not necessarily the end of threat.



> A prior poster commented that he teaches retaliation as a solution.  This isn't a solution in this scenario.



Again, if the incident is over and she actively seeks to teach the boy a lesson in  response, this is clearly revenge and NOT what I purport to be a good solution.



> The parent stepping in and addressing it with the instructor...or the instructor taking steps to address the situation is the solution as far as safety in the school.



Agreed.  But should this happen again, I stand by my advice.



> The instructor failed the first time around and is lucky the girl wasn't seriously harmed.  But he/she was negligent in allowing the situation to repeat after knowing of the boys aggression.  The situation, according to the OP has finally been addressed where the boy is no longer allowed to spar with girls.  As far as school safety, the problem has been resolved (unless the boy starts going after girls in some other way).



I think this gender-specific aggression is a sign of a much, much bigger problem and I frankly don't think he should be sparring ANYBODY, thereby I disagree that the problem is solved. This could mean big trouble.



> As far as the boys issues with girls, no this hasn't been resolved, but this is outside of the instructors responsibilities.



I disagree to a point.  I take great issue with instructors who witness this kind of aggression in their schools and do nothing to stop furthering the child's education in the ability to fight and do harm to others.



> My main point is that the situation was resolved correctly as far as the OP is concerned.  They brought the matter to the attention of the instructor and expressed their concern.  The situation has been finally corrected as far a safety in the school.  Retaliation, as suggested by another poster, is not a solution and in fact could have amplified the existing problem with possible tragic results for someone i.e some child.  Had the girl sought revenge, as suggested by a member here, and jumped up and 'taught the boy a lesson'...would it have solved the problem?



I think I've made my opinion on the difference between situational retaliation and agression/revenge very clear.



> If the boy has issues with girls, would receiving an injury at the hand of a girl solved the problem?



Who knows?  I've seen this work more often than not. It is possible, also, to win a sparring match against this boy, defend oneself effectively and not cause injury to him. I'm not a fan of causing injury - in fact, I detest it as a learning tool. There are certainly perfectly legal and non-injurious ways to "teach him a lesson."



> Or would it have amplified the problem?  Bottom line, revenge isn't a solution.  And it has nothing to do with active self-defense in a right-now situation.



And I won't entertain the revenge portion here as, again, I've made myself clear on the difference.


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## granfire (Sep 12, 2012)

ATC said:


> I teach my kids to retaliate all the time. If someone smiles and says hello to them then they must do like wise and smile back and say hello to them. Retaliation is not simply a bad term. Adults simply choose to only see the bad.
> 
> 
> I don't think he meant retaliation in your same sense. To retaliate could simply mean to confront the person. Example - My retaliation to him hitting me was to ask him to stop. If things keep going on with no change then you may need to escalate your retaliation. But teaching kids to stand up for themselves and when left no choice defend themselves, I see nothing wrong with that.
> ...



I think the less weighed term is reciprocate...


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2012)

Stopping the boy sparring with girls may well be seen as a 'reward' to him, clearly he has a problem sparring with them so taking him away merely reinforces what he most likely thinks about females..that they are weak and to be bullied. If they weren't weak why would he have been pulled out of sparring with them is how he will see it. Being smacked around by a girl the next time he tried to pull stunts like the throat punch would teach him that he cannot simply do as he likes just because he's sparring with a girl. That's not retaliation, it's not revenge, it's simply good sparring and self defence.However he should be banned form sparring anyone until he learns how to behave.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Stopping the boy sparring with girls may well be seen as a 'reward' to him, clearly he has a problem sparring with them so taking him away merely reinforces what he most likely thinks about females..that they are weak and to be bullied. If they weren't weak why would he have been pulled out of sparring with them is how he will see it. Being smacked around by a girl the next time he tried to pull stunts like the throat punch would teach him that he cannot simply do as he likes just because he's sparring with a girl. That's not retaliation, it's not revenge, it's simply good sparring and self defence.However he should be banned form sparring anyone until he learns how to behave.



Okay, lets address it from this angle.  From the description of the OP, this wasn't the first time the problem was identified.  And in the first instance, it was not addressed with any type of discipline and/or sanctions.

Why?

It has now been addressed, but not to the satisfaction of some here looking at the situation.  So why did the instructor choose this type of sanction in favor of something else?

As far as the boy being 'smacked around'...we still realize we're talking about an 8yr old kid right?  Is returned violence what is being suggested here?   Well...yes, that is exactly what several of you are advocating in this situation.  I don't really see this as addressing the root of the issue.  

But then, if retaliation, revenge and violence-in-return for this type of situation is the solution...does that apply to the next guy that cuts you off in traffic or takes your parking spot?  Where is the fine line?  When is teaching a kid retaliation, revenge and violence-in-return acceptable and when is it not acceptable?


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Okay, lets address it from this angle. From the description of the OP, this wasn't the first time the problem was identified. And in the first instance, it was not addressed with any type of discipline and/or sanctions.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



I think you are over reacting to be honest and taking this out of context.

The root of the issue is that he should be stopped from sparring full stop not just stopping from sparring girls, that is reinforcing what he believes...that girls are weak, he needs to be shown they aren't and if that means a smack *while they are sparring* so be it. It's not revenge, it's not retaliation, it's defending yourself while sparring. It's not smacking someone because they cut you up or anything like that, it's smart sparring.

Children aren't just sweet little things, they can be killers, here we are still haunted by two ten year old boys who abducted a toddler then tortured him before killing him, it sits in our collective conciousness and makes us afraid still.

I'm not suggesting of course that there's anything like this with this boy but he needs more than just being banned from sparring with girls.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I think you are over reacting to be honest and taking this out of context.



Am I?  What this kid does as a kid, he will likely continue as an adult unless the issue is resolved.



> _The root of the issue is that he should be stopped from sparring full stop not just stopping from sparring girls, that is reinforcing what he believes...that girls are weak, he needs to be shown they aren't and if that means a smack _*while they are sparring so be it.*



But this is the crux of the point I've made, the sparring was over the moment she hit the ground sucking for air.  The threat, at this time was over.  Some have suggested, in effect, to juice the kid up next time they sparred.  That is retaliation/revenge.  This is different from the sparring being active and she realizes the kid is trying to hurt her and she takes whatever appropriate measures are necessary to protect herself.  This could be removing herself from the situation.  It may necessitate her dumping the kid on his butt.  This is different from retaliation.  Teach the girl that it is okay to juice the kid in the next sparring situation is the same as teaching her it is okay to key her ex-boyfriends car when they break up or smack around his new girlfriend or have some road rage next time some schmuck cuts her off in traffic etc.

No, kids aren't little angels all the time.  And with no offense intended, some have an artificial perspective on right vs. wrong based upon what happens in training in an artificial environment.  Again NO offense intended...BUT...violence begets violence.  That's just a fact of life.  Trust me, I know.  Today is Thursday.  My last violent altercation was Tuesday of this week.  22yr old kid tries to kill his mom in a violent rage.  I end up fighting the kid, sweeping his leg and taking him down.  Result...I'm covered in the idiots blood!  What lead up to this kid trying to kill his own mother?  Yeah, drugs were a factor (by the way, if anyone thinks smoking K2 is cool...your an idiot).  But there were very likely other factors as well.  There always are.  As I mentioned earlier, retaliation isn't a solution, it is only one more step down the wrong path.  And again, to be crystal clear, SD isn't retaliation.


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## Tez3 (Sep 13, 2012)

I don't think anyone has said going up and smacking him, it's been suggested that while sparring she is able to hold her own with him and can give back as hard as she gets, not necessarily a good thing but no one has suggested she walks up to him and plant him one in the nuts. 

One threat may have been over when she went to the floor but as he seems to go in hard every time he needs to be taught that he simply can't do this. One way is to stop him sparring totally and not just with girls and the other is to allow the girls to be equally hard back. The word here is 'back' not first but in return. When my daughter was young she had a lad who when he sparred with her did the same thing, next time she sparred with him when he turned it up a notch she turned it up two and he lost. It was in the context of sparring not revenge, it's on the basis as many are told spar to the level of the person sparring with you. She didn't kick him in the nuts, she beat him fair and square by the rules. She didn't start it but she finished it.

How does the girl in the OP feel now, that the boys been taken away from sparring with here? Does she feel safe or does she feel perhaps that no one thinks she's good enough at sparring so she is weak? If he's still sparring with boys it sends the wrong message, he needs to be stopped from sparring anyone.


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## Steve (Sep 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> I teach my kids to retaliate all the time. If someone smiles and says hello to them then they must do like wise and smile back and say hello to them. Retaliation is not simply a bad term. Adults simply choose to only see the bad.
> 
> 
> I don't think he meant retaliation in your same sense. To retaliate could simply mean to confront the person. Example - My retaliation to him hitting me was to ask him to stop. If things keep going on with no change then you may need to escalate your retaliation. But teaching kids to stand up for themselves and when left no choice defend themselves, I see nothing wrong with that.


The word "retaliation" might be the sticking point here.  While it means reacting in kind, it connotes a reaction that is negative or violent.  Retaliation is equivalent to saying that you teach kids to get even with people who do them harm.  Eye for an eye.

Frankly, I am with KSD in that I find the use of the term with regards to children troubling.   I'm not saying that this is what is actually being taught, but words have layers of meaning, and retaliation implies tit for tat.  Not something I'd want to teach my kids. 





> My Son got punched in the face at school by a kid he beat in basketball. He stood there took the punch then looked the kid right in the eyes and said very calmly "Dude, what's your problem". That was enough retaliation to back the kid down and then have him apologize for what he did. My son could have wipe the floor with the kid but did not. He was 10 at the time. He solved the problem on his own without my help. But was taught by me how to solve the problem before it got worse. I think this is what G meant with his post. Not what you have in mind.


This is not an example of retaliation.


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## Steve (Sep 13, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I don't think anyone has said going up and smacking him, it's been suggested that while sparring she is able to hold her own with him and can give back as hard as she gets, not necessarily a good thing but no one has suggested she walks up to him and plant him one in the nuts.
> 
> One threat may have been over when she went to the floor but as he seems to go in hard every time he needs to be taught that he simply can't do this. One way is to stop him sparring totally and not just with girls and the other is to allow the girls to be equally hard back. The word here is 'back' not first but in return. When my daughter was young she had a lad who when he sparred with her did the same thing, next time she sparred with him when he turned it up a notch she turned it up two and he lost. It was in the context of sparring not revenge, it's on the basis as many are told spar to the level of the person sparring with you. She didn't kick him in the nuts, she beat him fair and square by the rules. She didn't start it but she finished it.


I absolutely agree with this.   Sparring in BJJ is much the same.  New white belts often go too hard to learn anything, and they're dangerous to their training partners.  As upper belts, we tell them we will go just a little harder than them.  And sometimes, that's pretty hard.  Once again, I get the sense that the term "retaliation" is sticking things up, but we're mostly saying the same things.  


> How does the girl in the OP feel now, that the boys been taken away from sparring with here? Does she feel safe or does she feel perhaps that no one thinks she's good enough at sparring so she is weak? If he's still sparring with boys it sends the wrong message, he needs to be stopped from sparring anyone.


I'd be very interested in the answers here, as well.  Great questions that get to the root of the issue.  This is less about developing two young people.


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## shesulsa (Sep 13, 2012)

Granfire used the more correct term: reciprocate.

I still disagree that the end of an event means the end of a threat ... there is a larger, general threat going on here.

As far as growing up to think you retaliate when someone cuts you off in traffic, well ... the pattern you seem to be following, Kong Soo Do, is that once a moment is over, all is over.  Coaching, teaching, conflict, reciprocation, self-defense, character, responsibility ... these are not elements of existence that start and stop within seconds.  While I'm a fan of letting things go, if you (in general) teach this girl that all is fine once blows have stopped, you (again, in general) are teaching her errantly.  If it was a simple mistake, an errant blow not intended to do harm that's one thing.  This particular situation is different and has an underlying and consistent flow.

It is also a very good thing to remember that these children are extremely young.  This is one reason I'm such a fan of making this boy wait a while before he spars ANYONE again. Perhaps the "reset" button can be pushed with a handful of months of growth, development and careful coaching.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I still disagree that the end of an event means the end of a threat ... there is a larger, general threat going on here.
> 
> As far as growing up to think you retaliate when someone cuts you off in traffic, well ... the pattern you seem to be following, Kong Soo Do, is that once a moment is over, all is over.



You're not understanding what I'm saying. Neither of your above statements is what I've stated. What I have stated is that when she was hit and fell to the floor, according to the OP, that situation was over as far as him and her specifically. He didn't jump on top of her and continue hitting her. That situation had ended. I never said the overall situation had been solved and in fact had stated that the underlying problem had not been addressed. Once again, the issue I have is members suggesting that retaliation is the solution. It isn't, and never will be the solution as it does nothing to address the underlying problem. It is a knee-jerk reaction at best, and poor adult-to-child teaching methodology.


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## granfire (Sep 14, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're not understanding what I'm saying. Neither of your above statements is what I've stated. What I have stated is that when she was hit and fell to the floor, according to the OP, that situation was over as far as him and her specifically. He didn't jump on top of her and continue hitting her. That situation had ended. I never said the overall situation had been solved and in fact had stated that the underlying problem had not been addressed. Once again, the issue I have is members suggesting that retaliation is the solution. It isn't, and never will be the solution as it does nothing to address the underlying problem. It is a knee-jerk reaction at best, and poor adult-to-child teaching methodology.



get off the 'retaliation' kick, will you.

What is your point anyhow?

That it irks you when adults tell their kids that they may strike back should the situation require it?

Well, some people don't understand nice and need the sledge hammer method of being shown a point. 

The bigger concern in this situation is however not whether or not the little girl cleans his clock, but that a child of this young age as obvious problems with his social skills. 
Maybe he would learn if the girls were not nice all the time (as in having mom and dad complain instead of giving him the thrashing he deserves - within the rules he likes to break). Or - and I could see that happen, too - he pops a gasket when being paid back in like currency. The boy has issues.
However, I also see that it's not the Dojang's role to clear them. You really can't win by telling a parent 'hey, your kid has issues' 

(I much more prefer the attitude of this one kid...back when he was ten he was not bad at sparring, but constantly lost at tournaments against girls. His mom asked him why. 'I can't hit girls' he answered. and replying to the fact that he constantly sparred in class with girls with no problem 'But those are my _friends_!' :lol


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2012)

Hey, I'm with you guys on most of this, but I'm going to say that, based on what we've been told, it's likely that BOTH of these kids have some issues, and they're likely not serious ones.  They are young children and they're learning, and they both need to be taught some skills that will make them better people.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 14, 2012)

granfire said:


> What is your point anyhow?
> 
> That it irks you when adults tell their kids that they may strike back should the situation require it?



Why would it 'irk' me, I've never suggested anything of the sort.  I have, in fact, stated that if the situation was going on 'right-now' and the girl needed to act accordingly to protect herself from harm then it was fine.  However, that is not the situation as presented in the OP.  My comments are based on the specific situation as presented by the OP.  

Now when adults give children bad advice, such as has been presented by some in this thread then yes, that irks me.  I'm just funny that way :cheers:


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## shesulsa (Sep 14, 2012)

All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.

I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person.  I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.

I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.


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## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... *IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.
> *
> I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person. I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.
> 
> I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.



As far as I can see this is what we are all saying, there's nothing about going up to him after the event and dealing him a low blow, it's all about if she spars with him again she needs to be aware of his tactics and be prepared to meet them with equally strong ones of her own. She needs to be able, as said here, to be able to defend herself forcefully when needed, and, as said here - legally too.
Drawing boundaries is an important lesson to learn.


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## Steve (Sep 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.
> 
> I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person.  I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.
> 
> I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.


However, these are kids, and because they are kids, I believe that it's critical that the adults avoid characterizing one as victim and the other as villain, which I believe I've seen in this thread.  Should they spar again, which sounds likely, adults should be paying attention and be prepared to put whatever happens into context by coaching BOTH kids on how to better handle the situation next time.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her.



And to be just as clear...has anyone disagreed with this?  I have NOT, though some are reading quite a bit into my comments, despite being very clear on my postion.  The key word is....IF.  If she finds herself sparring this boy again, or indeed anyone and they try to hurt her, and it is happening right-then-and-there then she can do whatever is appropriate to defend herself.  That takes care of the 'if' part.  That isn't what happened however, and is not what was described in the OP.  I addressed the issue of the OP and stated that retaliation is not a solution.  And retaliation, in the situation described in the OP is not the solution.   So on the issue of 'if'...there seems to be a concensus of agreement.  On the issue of what actually happened, I stand by my statement(s).  In the case of the OP, in order for her to seek retaliation/revenge/vengence or whatever label we'd like to use, she would have to seek out an opportunity such as a sparring session with the premeditation of juicing up the kid.  That isn't a right-now situation that she just happens to find herself in , that is going in looking for a problem.  As martial artists, we aren't suppose to be looking for a problem.  We shouldn't be looking for retaliation/revenge/vengence or whatever.  If we find ourselves in a situation that we can't walk away from, then we do what is necessary.  Those are two totally separate issues.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 14, 2012)

Steve said:


> Should they spar again, which sounds likely, adults should be paying attention and be prepared to put whatever happens into context by coaching BOTH kids on how to better handle the situation next time.



This sounds like an excellent idea to me and may go a long way towards addressing any issues one or both parties may have.


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## jks9199 (Sep 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> All right ... let me be painstakingly clear ... IF the girl should spar this boy again and he wind up taking the same level of aggression to her, she should respond with at least as much force as is dealt her. I'm not saying she should use illegal blows or make a special trip or anything ... I'm saying she should reciprocate and do everything she can to win this match legally and put him on his butt.
> 
> I also don't think she should give any pretense to friendship with the boy. General respect and sportsmanship, sure ... and I do realize this is asking a lot of such a young person.  I don't think, however, it's too early for her to begin learning how to draw boundaries and enforce them appropriately with people around her.
> 
> I frankly don't see how anyone can misinterpret that as vengeful.



I don't have a problem with part of this, Shesulsa.  *Each and every* person this boy fights should be given permission to go at him as hard as he comes at them.  I suspect that'll ramp him down in fairly short order; it's amazing how some people go so hard when they're confident that the other person won't hit back.  But I think, given the info in the original post, the problem is deeper than this boy and this girl, and I think that, given their ages, the school supervision was lacking in permitting this to reach a chronic level.

But -- and maybe this is my own limited experience with 8 to 10 year olds -- I don't think this was a problem the two kids were equipped to solve on their own, and I don't know that they can recognize the difference between responding in kind and revenge.  That's why I put the burden on the person who was supposed to be supervising them, and ultimately, on the head instructor.


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