# is it a micky dojo?



## azmyth (Dec 31, 2007)

- martial art is the "creation" of the instructor. comprised of bits and pieces of styles he threw together. granted he performs all the moves like he knows what he's doing.
- "Master" status, with only a 2nd degree black belt in TKD but seminar degrees in tons of other arts.
- instructor curses in class.
- instructor tells his students with previous MA experience that we need to forget everything we have learned, and focus only on his art.
- weirdly enough, the kicks we perform are all directly pulled from the art the students with previous experience came from.
- curriculum is sporadic. There is no rhyme nor reason for anything. silly ideas that are passed off as training. ie.. hitting balloons with a stick to see if you can pop it.
- all sorts of charges and extra fees for gear. Usually gear that is only used once in a blue moon.
- students required to wear belts in non normal way, that has nothing to do with this particular art. 
- even though rules say otherwise, students are allowed to wear socks onto the floor.. dirty ones at that.
- school preaches that we should use fluid movements, and stay away from linear stiff movements.. yet one of our forms is a shotokan form.. one of the most stiff martial arts there is.
- testing is done in class, belts are ordered with personal embroidering before the test actually takes place.
- overexhorbatant number of belts
- instructor doesn't want students to do anything he cannot do. If he cannot kick above the knee, he doesn't want you to.
- stretching is an after thought.
- instructor gets too personal with students, showing favoritism to certain students. If a student who has previous experience joins.. he gives that person rank in his system. Even though he will preach later on to forget everything thing you learned in that art. 
- Students don't know half of the required material needed for testing when the time comes, instructor teaches it all in one day and expects student to know it.


there's more.. but I could be here all day.


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## MarkBarlow (Dec 31, 2007)

From what you describe, I'd say that particular dojo would have to put in a few years of effort to qualify even as a Mickey Dojo.  While most mcdojo don't stress realistic technique, at least the structure of the class provides some degree of progress.  
Of course, the idea of charging for everything but the air you breathe is definitely a mcdojo characteristic.


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## Kacey (Dec 31, 2007)

I agree with Mark - this place is iffy, at best - and I don't think it's good enough to be iffy.


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## ArmorOfGod (Dec 31, 2007)

We can tell from the tone of what you are writing that you already know if the place is good or shady.

AoG


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## Big Don (Dec 31, 2007)

What is a non-normal way to wear a belt?


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## terryl965 (Dec 31, 2007)

Do you ahve a name or link to this so called place or is it part of the magic kingdom as well.


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## clfsean (Dec 31, 2007)

I'm with the rest... this place doesn't qualify as a mickey.


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## fireman00 (Dec 31, 2007)

its sounds like you've already answered your question... time to bail and find someplace that has structure.  I would be interested in seeing how they tie their belts in non-traditional ways.  

As far as testing... low belts, up to brown belt.... are done during classes but in a separate room.  Red belt testing is done separately and the school closes for our three day black belt test.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 31, 2007)

My thought is that regardless of what we think about it (based solely on what you've written) you don't seem happy there. If you're not happy with things & it doesn't look as tho it will improve, it's probably time for you to leave.


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## HelloKitty (Dec 31, 2007)

azmyth said:


> (...)
> there's more.. but I could be here all day.


 
uff! If things are like you are telling us, I definitely would look for another dojo!


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2007)

Leave. Now.


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## jks9199 (Dec 31, 2007)

Big Don said:


> What is a non-normal way to wear a belt?



Around your ears?  I'm still trying to figure out "overexhorbatant"...  (Sorry... too many folks try to use big words and end up sounding silly, either because they invented the word, or used it so incorrectly that it's laughable.  It's a pet peeve of mine...  Just stick with words you know.)



fireman00 said:


> its sounds like you've already answered your question... time to bail and find someplace that has structure.  I would be interested in seeing how they tie their belts in non-traditional ways.
> 
> As far as testing... low belts, up to brown belt.... are done during classes but in a separate room.  Red belt testing is done separately and the school closes for our three day black belt test.



The testing process itself, as described, doesn't bother me.  First, just because you bought a belt for someone doesn't mean you have to award it.  I've bought belts, anticipating a student's promotion, and ended up carrying it for a while because they failed.  Second, I test during class.  Usually, if I'm testing a student, I expect them to be able to pass.  



Tez3 said:


> Leave. Now.



Yep... Gotta agree.  Lots of red flags...  Almost anytime someone "created" their own martial art to justify opening a school, there's a problem.  (Note... this is different from a school splitting off to follow one instructor's practices over another, which is a better description of the splits of many "historic" styles.)


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## Gentle Fist (Dec 31, 2007)

Sounds like the guy needs to teach MA for an ego stroke.  I agree with the rest that this place is not run well enough to be a mcdojo.  A mcdojo actually makes a huge profit line and the buisness overtakes the actual learning of it's students.  This guy seems to want to create a cult type following.

Look for another school ASAP!!!


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 31, 2007)

I think that's own market research to see what he can get away with..



J/K!!


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 31, 2007)

azmyth said:


> - martial art is the "creation" of the instructor. comprised of bits and pieces of styles he threw together. granted he performs all the moves like he knows what he's doing.
> - "Master" status, with only a 2nd degree black belt in TKD but seminar degrees in tons of other arts.
> - instructor curses in class.
> - instructor tells his students with previous MA experience that we need to forget everything we have learned, and focus only on his art.
> ...


Sounds like sour grapes to me.
Sean


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## Gray Phoenix (Dec 31, 2007)

Mcdojo with Fries..


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## chinto (Dec 31, 2007)

Kacey said:


> I agree with Mark - this place is iffy, at best - and I don't think it's good enough to be iffy.




yep got to agree myself on the basis of the data given! I would suggest not even getting involved at all with such a dojo!


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## ArmorOfGod (Jan 1, 2008)

http://www.rivalfightgear.com/store/tshirts/mcdojo/mcdojo.html
Click there.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jan 1, 2008)

MarkBarlow said:


> Of course, the idea of charging for everything but the air you breathe is definitely a mcdojo characteristic.


Let it be known I'm trandemarking, copyrighting and patenting a ranking system based on the breathing of air in the Dojo.  There will be a belt system and a testing fee.  

Seriously, while one or two of the points aren't that bad the others are just plain stupid.  Master rank at 2nd and seminar _rank_?  I've attended pleanty of seminars, but I've only gotten rank at a couple, and that was after attending *years* (at 3-4 times a year) worth of them with the same instructors.  Time to do a web search for something new...


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## azmyth (Jan 1, 2008)

to answer a few of the questions..

Overexhorbatant belts (BIG number) - There are belts thrown in there just so it seems he can have every color in the rainbow. I actually don't even think there is a black belt.. not that this matters.. but the instructor has one in his own art. Yet the belt display has no such.

We tie our belts normally, but we have to wear the knot to the right of our hip if we are male and to the left if we are female. The only person who gets to wear it to the front is the instructor. I heard him say this was a take on an arnis thing, but the funny thing is.. he's not teaching us arnis in the class we wear the belts Its karate.

oh and he's sending a guy thats got maybe 6 months of martial arts experience, no wrestling experience, and no previous fighting experience into an MMA fight here soon. He's built the guy up to think he actually stands a chance. I feel sorry for the kid because he's paying a buttload of money for this training that he's not even really getting.


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## Gentle Fist (Jan 1, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> http://www.rivalfightgear.com/store/tshirts/mcdojo/mcdojo.html
> Click there.


 

I think I may just have to pick a couple of those.  Thanks for the link!!!


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## Tez3 (Jan 1, 2008)

azmyth said:


> to answer a few of the questions..
> 
> Overexhorbatant belts (BIG number) - There are belts thrown in there just so it seems he can have every color in the rainbow. I actually don't even think there is a black belt.. not that this matters.. but the instructor has one in his own art. Yet the belt display has no such.
> 
> ...


 

Oh great, like MMA doesn't get a bad enough press as it is!

Can I ask though why, considering your posts, you put your MA rank as your sig?

The knot/belt thing is weird! the only time we move our belts round so the knot isn't in the middle is in grappling/judo to avoid rubbing the knot in your partners face.... well that's if you want to be nice!


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## MJS (Jan 1, 2008)

azmyth said:


> - martial art is the "creation" of the instructor. comprised of bits and pieces of styles he threw together. granted he performs all the moves like he knows what he's doing.
> - "Master" status, with only a 2nd degree black belt in TKD but seminar degrees in tons of other arts.
> - instructor curses in class.
> - instructor tells his students with previous MA experience that we need to forget everything we have learned, and focus only on his art.
> ...


 
The following are just my opinions.  No offense is intended.  Question for you:  Is this a place that you train at, thinking about training at, or just asking an opinion of?  

Speaking for myself, but this is a school that I'd stay away from.

Just my .02

Mike


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## azmyth (Jan 1, 2008)

crap, I didn't notice I still had that in my sig. Let me take that out.

this is a place I attended until recently. all the stuff I mentioned came to a  point where the price I was paying a month, just seemed like money down the drain.

the final straw was when we were scheduled to test, yet I had not even been shown half of the self defense techniques for my rank until the day before.. because there is no structure to the class or curriculum. Its just whatever the instructor felt like doing. He allowed people to spar with no protective gear, and allowed people to spar that had not learned control yet, and had only been in martial arts for a few weeks. I felt this was WAY too early. I was sparring with weapons, but yet had been taught no techniques. I was grappling, but I hadn't been shown any of the moves. It felt like, "make up whatever you want" central. I'm not paying someone money to freestyle everything. I can do that at home.

I really had respect for the instructor, because when he taught ITF TKD.. it was very enjoyable and I felt like I was learning. But he branched off and basically said "I don't like TKD anymore" and I want everyone I teach that has done it, to forget about it. I want to someday teach TKD, and maybe even another art as a supplement. If thats what he was doing, then I'd have been all for it. But, he's made up his own art and IMO a 2nd degree black belt in TKD doesn't have the credibility to create a style when the only other forms of training he's had has been from seminars.


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## azmyth (Jan 1, 2008)

If anyone is interested. Here are diary videos of the MMA fighter in training that I was talking about. All together I'd say he's had about 6 months of training in all.. martial arts/MMA combined. 

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ChannelID=224699400


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## Mark Lynn (Jan 2, 2008)

azmyth said:


> - martial art is the "creation" of the instructor. comprised of bits and pieces of styles he threw together. granted he performs all the moves like he knows what he's doing.
> - "Master" status, with only a 2nd degree black belt in TKD but *seminar degrees in tons of other arts.*
> - instructor curses in class.
> - instructor tells his students with previous MA experience that we need to forget everything we have learned, and focus only on his art.
> ...


 
Azmyth

Since you and Brandon opened up your gripes on the internet I was wondering what you mean by the statements you made that I high ligthed in bold.

1) ...*seminar degrees in tons of other arts. (?)*  what arts or is it one?

2) ...*weirdly enough, the kicks we perform are all directly pulled from the art the students with previous experience came from.  *
For myself coming from an American Karate/TKD background, studying at one time a Japanese form of Karate, briefly having experience in JKDC type training and training in two different systems of Arnis, I'd say the kicks are all very similar.

3) ...*students required to wear belts in non normal way, that has nothing to do with this particular art.* 
I'm real curious about what is non tradtional?  I know some posters made fun of the comment but I'm really curious what do you mean?  Can you describe the position?

4)...*instructor doesn't want students to do anything he cannot do. If he cannot kick above the knee, he doesn't want you to.*
From the sounds of it your instructor went to a non tradtional method of teaching with more emphasis on a self defense type curriculmn.  In that case he might want everyone to target the knees because it goes along with his way of thinking and the direction he wants the school to go.

From your post there are many other things about the instructor or his manner of teaching that I might disagree with.  I would just like some added information on these points if you don't mind.


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## azmyth (Jan 2, 2008)

> 1) ...*seminar degrees in tons of other arts. (?)*  what arts or is it one?



He has a legit rank in TKD. He has cert. after cert. on the wall for all sorts of other stuff.. arnis, escrima, karate, american kenpo, jiu jitsu. All of them are seminar cert. of participation with "rank" noted on them.



> 2) ...*weirdly enough, the kicks we perform are all directly pulled from the art the students with previous experience came from.  *
> For myself coming from an American Karate/TKD background, studying at one time a Japanese form of Karate, briefly having experience in JKDC type training and training in two different systems of Arnis, I'd say the kicks are all very similar.



I do realize kicks are similar. I would have no problems with this if I wasn't being told to forget everything I know about this art.. and then the next minute your telling me to do the same stiff movements you told me to forget about.



> 3) ...*students required to wear belts in non normal way, that has nothing to do with this particular art.*
> I'm real curious about what is non tradtional? I know some posters made fun of the comment but I'm really curious what do you mean? Can you describe the position?



every school I have ever been to. we wear our belt knot in the center. this particular school has the students wearing the knot on the right or left hip depending on what sex you are. instructor is the only one allowed to wear his in the center.



> 4)...*instructor doesn't want students to do anything he cannot do. If he cannot kick above the knee, he doesn't want you to.*
> From the sounds of it your instructor went to a non tradtional method of teaching with more emphasis on a self defense type curriculmn. In that case he might want everyone to target the knees because it goes along with his way of thinking and the direction he wants the school to go.
> 
> From your post there are many other things about the instructor or his manner of teaching that I might disagree with. I would just like some added information on these points if you don't mind.



I posted some things that doesn't really make the school a mcdojo. But more or less things that don't interest me. If not kicking high has a valid reason such as you stated.. then by all means let me know that. But, if your a bigger guy who just can't physically kick a certain way. I don't want to be told that punching or whatever is a better way to fight just because your not capable of kicking high, which is the case here. Not everyone makes good kickers... but that shouldn't stop those who can could well to do so.


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## JadeDragon3 (Jan 2, 2008)

If you want to see a McDojo here it is:

http://sinthe.com/

Check out the curriculum. They have a store in the school where you HAVE to buy your weapons and sparring pads. You also have to buy patches at certain belt ranks. It ridiculous all the B.S. they claim to know and teach. Plus they claim to teach kung fu but wear a gi with a belt instead of the sash and typical kung fu uniform.


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## Tez3 (Jan 2, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> If you want to see a McDojo here it is:
> 
> http://sinthe.com/
> 
> Check out the curriculum. They have a store in the school where you HAVE to buy your weapons and sparring pads. You also have to buy patches at certain belt ranks. It ridiculous all the B.S. they claim to know and teach. Plus they claim to teach kung fu but wear a gi with a belt instead of the sash and typical kung fu uniform.


 

I want to be Grand Mistress Sin!!!


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## jks9199 (Jan 2, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> If you want to see a McDojo here it is:
> 
> http://sinthe.com/
> 
> Check out the curriculum. They have a store in the school where you HAVE to buy your weapons and sparring pads. You also have to buy patches at certain belt ranks. It ridiculous all the B.S. they claim to know and teach. Plus they claim to teach kung fu but wear a gi with a belt instead of the sash and typical kung fu uniform.


The clothes aren't a measure of the instruction.

Lots of great Chinese martial arts were often taught and practiced in street clothes or ordinary athletic gear, instead of "traditional Chinese costumes."

The "traditional Japanese martial arts uniform" or dogi or gi was basically invented/adopted between Jigoro Kano in judo and Gichin Funakoshi in karate, around 100 years or so ago.

I've done plenty of great training in black BDUs and t-shirts, not formal uniforms.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 2, 2008)

azmyth said:


> If anyone is interested. Here are diary videos of the MMA fighter in training that I was talking about. All together I'd say he's had about 6 months of training in all.. martial arts/MMA combined.
> 
> http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.channel&ChannelID=224699400



He looked pretty stiff in the shadow boxing (first video)


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## Cirdan (Jan 3, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I want to be Grand Mistress Sin!!!


 
What is thy command oh Grand Mistress of Sin?


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## Grenadier (Jan 3, 2008)

*Moderator's note:*

This thread has been moved to the Horror Stores forum.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## Perpetual White Belt (Jan 3, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> If you want to see a McDojo here it is:
> 
> http://sinthe.com/
> 
> Check out the curriculum. They have a store in the school where you HAVE to buy your weapons and sparring pads. You also have to buy patches at certain belt ranks. It ridiculous all the B.S. they claim to know and teach. Plus they claim to teach kung fu but wear a gi with a belt instead of the sash and typical kung fu uniform.


 
Okay, I find it funny that reading the title page of the site without accents: "Sin The Karate School"  Place is a Shaolin-Do school.  Nuf said there.  We've got one of those instructors teaching around here.  I'm not even gonna' get into his "skills"....


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## MantisStyle21 (Jan 12, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> If you want to see a McDojo here it is:
> 
> http://sinthe.com/
> 
> Check out the curriculum. They have a store in the school where you HAVE to buy your weapons and sparring pads. You also have to buy patches at certain belt ranks. *It ridiculous all the B.S. they claim to know and teach. Plus they claim to teach kung fu but wear a gi with a belt instead of the sash and typical kung fu uniform*.


 


jks9199 said:


> The clothes aren't a measure of the instruction.
> 
> Lots of great Chinese martial arts were often taught and practiced in street clothes or ordinary athletic gear, instead of "traditional Chinese costumes."
> 
> ...




I'd have to agree here, the primary art in our school is Northern Shaolin, but we wear the gis and belts. Mainy because we also grapple a lot and the gis are a bit more durable and easier to grapple in, so I don't think the clothes you wear have much to do with mcdojos.


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## grydth (Jan 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The clothes aren't a measure of the instruction.
> 
> Lots of great Chinese martial arts were often taught and practiced in street clothes or ordinary athletic gear, instead of "traditional Chinese costumes."
> 
> ...




Very true..... and today and in the USA.  In fact that's more the rule in the region I live in. It seems the less a Tai Chi teacher looks like a fighter, the farther they are able to throw you. I've worn the formal get up exactly once - at a dinner honoring a teacher.


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## zacthechef (Aug 19, 2008)

Every morning i wake up at 5am.
i hit balloons for 3 HOURS.


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## kenpofighter (Aug 19, 2008)

azmyth said:


> to answer a few of the questions..
> 
> We tie our belts normally, but we have to wear the knot to the right of our hip if we are male and to the left if we are female. The only person who gets to wear it to the front is the instructor. I heard him say this was a take on an arnis thing, but the funny thing is.. he's not teaching us arnis in the class we wear the belts Its karate.



I was in a kenpo school where the females wore their belt knot on the right side and the males wore theirs on the left. Only the (black belt) instructors wore their knot in the middle and it was very disrespectful it a lower belt's knot got shoved over to the middle. I was told that it was from a tradition. Its purpose was for the instructors to be able to tell the difference between male and female students during the hippy days. ( Since the guys and girls both had long hair. And I am not really being funny but sometimes gi tops can make a difference.) Just thought this info might be interesting!


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## astrobiologist (Aug 19, 2008)

Definitely a McDojo...

I wonder how this guy manages to get students.   That's very unfortunate for the students he has now or will be swindling somtime in the future.  It seems to be all-to-often of an occurence these days.

It's not my place, but I really think someone should talk to this guy.  He may benefit from hearing from someone else that what he is doing is truly wrong and that he has a lot to learn before he can become a good instructor.  Of course, as we all know, he probably wouldn't change anyway, but his students deserve to know that there is a lot more out there when it comes to the martial arts.


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## punisher73 (Aug 20, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> I was in a kenpo school where the females wore their belt knot on the right side and the males wore theirs on the left. Only the (black belt) instructors wore their knot in the middle and it was very disrespectful it a lower belt's knot got shoved over to the middle. I was told that it was from a tradition. Its purpose was for the instructors to be able to tell the difference between male and female students during the hippy days. ( Since the guys and girls both had long hair. And I am not really being funny but sometimes gi tops can make a difference.) Just thought this info might be interesting!


 
You beat me to posting that.  Kenpo used to turn the belt knot to different sides.

I would say that this place is NOT a McDojo.  McDojo comes from a slam on McDonalds way of doing business, which is assembly line, cheap price and ok quality.  You eat at McDonalds and while not the best quality you are still getting fed.

At a McDojo, it is still an assembly line where you have a legitimate style and the curriculum is layed out and you progress through the ranks at specific intervals and the quality is ok.  There main drive seems to be on making the most money and not on quality.

This place is just a sham plain and simple.


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