# Wing Tsun Vs Modern Arnis



## ArnisNewbie

Hello

this is my first post on this forum...and i don't know if this subject has been discussed before if so could you give me a link....

but my question is....i have a friend who trains Wing Chun and he show me how it worked...and i found that it seemed to be pretty hard to break their attacks...and they dominate the center line very good...
my questions is then...in a hand to hand combat...without an equalizer what techniques would be the best to counter an agressive attack from a Wing chun fighter...i know they have some weaknesses like they don't like clinch..but how do you get in clinch when you get chain punches in your face the whole time...

to finish...i know that no martial art is better than another and so on and it the person...but i am just curious...

"The difference between the living and the dead is timing"


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## ArnisNewbie

Hmmm is this question of no interest or is it too hard to answer...someone must know something...i mean there is a lot of experienced people in here


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## someguy

running is a good option


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## sercuerdasfigther

deal with their attack as if it is a diagnaol forehand , either block insde or parry to the outside. work zoning foot work to get off center then jam the arm and attack.


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## Tapps

Triangular footwork ...... and keep moving


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## ArnisNewbie

Cool Thanx for the reply guys

i hope i can use this in praksis now...I really like arnis...but i still have a lot to learn....


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Hit them with a stick!


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## someguy

Depends on the system of wing chun they use.
btw Renegade bring a big stick after me and ill get an even bigger on.  Then you must get a bigger stick to beat me and i'll then have to get a bigger stick to beat you.  In the end we will play bugs bunny and Yosimite Sam but with sticks.


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## Cruentus

You can very tricky with your trapping hands. 

You can do things like baiting him. This is basically where you get your opponent to try to execute a parry, grab, attack, or what have you, so you can effectively counter. An example of this is I have my hand up, but my left hand is centered and more forward then my right. I can move my left closer to him to cause him to try to slap my left hand down to execute an attack. I recognize his attempt, so BEFORE he makes contact on the parry of my left hand, then I move my left so his parry never makes contact while striking an opening (left or right, doesn't matter). Another example is I purposely leave an opening that I believe he'll take, so I can appropriately counter. 

Fainting is more fun. This is where you throw a strike which causes him to react (block). Before he is able to complete his action, you abort the technique to execute another. An example of this is you throw a right hand backfist to his head. If he doesn't block, you follow through and hit him in the head. If he does move his left to parry, lets say, you abort the technique before he makes contact with the parry, circle your right behind the left, slapping the left parry hand down while simultaniously striking with your left.

You can utilize the slipping or dodging techniques. Basically, if you usually parry with your hands, he'll be expecting you to execute a block or parry when he strikes at your head. Instead of blocking, you slip. He was waiting to "feel" your block or make contact, when he doesn't get either result, there is lag time. During this lag time, you are striking.

Utilize the blast or "straight blast." Your action time is faster then his reaction. So when his hands are in a transition, just punch him striaght through his guard.

Utilize "the draw," "the crowd," or "the space disruption." This is where you draw your opponent into you, or crowd him so he moves away, or just outright disrupt his space so he is out of his comfort zone in relationship to you. In any of these cases, your causing your opponent to have to restablish his stance or space, causing a transitionary period. You are more able to strikehim during this period. So, If he is a defensive player especially, then you want to draw him out of his comfort zone. You can do this best throught footwork, but not just retreating back per say. You want to step off his line (triangle stepping) causing him to have to readjust his stance and body position to get back into his "comfort zone." when he is readjusting, your striking. You can also make yourself appear to your opponent as if you are further away then you are, or closer then you are, through your stance and body height; just be careful of the grion shot in the deeper stances. You can stay just a hair out of his range most of the time, causing him to have to attempt to close the gap if he likes to be closer to control you. The bottom line is, your disrupting his balance and space so you can strike him when he has to readjust his position.

You can also do "the grapple." THis isn't wrestling per say, you are just disrupting your opponents strategy by grabing his hand(s) and wrists. when he tryes to shake your grab, or use your grab against you, you let go and strike.

"Limb destructions" are great too. If your opponents hands and arms are an obstical for you when you are attacking his head, just hit his arms and hands. Limb attacks can be very painful. Attack the back of hit hand, fingers, elbows. nerves, wrists, etc.

Bottom line: there are tons of things you can do when playing with anyone! I think it would be more helpful if you could illustrate what techniques and strategies your wing chun friend is using thats giving you trouble. We may be able to better help that way.

PAUL


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## ArnisNewbie

Hey Paul

thanx for your quick and very detailed reply...i really learned something from it 
I love to spar and i know in relation to my friend i am inferior...he is 12 apprentice degree and i am a white belt in arnis...but i have trained a lot of other martial arts...but i mean that every time you suffer a defeat you gain something...new experience and if you reflect on this you wil become a better fighter...i really love Arnis because the style reflects your personality...and not the opposite.

but if i experience more trouble i will let you guys know...

i know i lack the routine..but i think it is fun anyway......


When there is freedom from mechanical conditioning, there is simplicity. The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow - you are not understanding yourself. (Bruce Lee)


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## Cruentus

> i mean that every time you suffer a defeat you gain something.



Exactly...a successful man is a man who can learn from failure or defeat.

Just keep training...it'll come!


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## brothershaw

In response to the initial question/post
A good or experienced wing chun practitioner should/ would have alot more in his arsenal than chain punches.  My point is not that a good wing chun person is unbeatable, but just because we train chain punches dont expect that to be what you get in a fight 
Its a training tool.
My impression from alot of posts and talking with other martial artists is that most people dont have much of a clue about wing chun other than center line, chain punches and bruce lee.There are all manner of strikes, traps, and leg attacks, and so on.   Sorry this turned into a rant.  Good luck with the modern arnis.


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## brothershaw

Also attacking the center doesnt mean you have to come up the middle ( front) it can be attacked from any angle.


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by brothershaw _
> *In response to the initial question/post
> A good or experienced wing chun practitioner should/ would have alot more in his arsenal than chain punches.  My point is not that a good wing chun person is unbeatable, but just because we train chain punches dont expect that to be what you get in a fight
> Its a training tool.
> My impression from alot of posts and talking with other martial artists is that most people dont have much of a clue about wing chun other than center line, chain punches and bruce lee.There are all manner of strikes, traps, and leg attacks, and so on.   Sorry this turned into a rant.  Good luck with the modern arnis. *



I agree with everything your saying, and I will reinerate that I do not do Wing Chun, and my knowledge of the art is limited. From what I have seen, though, is that Wing Chun appears to a be a complete art with a lot more then Chain punches in the arsenal, as well as Modern Arnis is a complete art. As with most arts, it is more of a matter of who is the better practitioner, not one art vs. the other as the title of the thread might imply.

However, certian things are going to be universal regardless of what you study. It's all the same. My previous response was in regards to some strategies that might be useful.


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## brothershaw

My post wasnt meant to be a rip of you or anybody else paul, your stuff makes sense. Its just that if i hear one more person say wing chun chain punches I am going to turn into the incredible hulk. lol. try saying that 5 times fast.


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## ArnisNewbie

Hey 

thanx for the answers...

hmm i know that you can't put one art up against another...it was just as a provocation...anyway i see martial arts as a tool and it is up to the person who has the tool how he puts is to use...be it Wing Chun, Arnis, Kenpo, Aikido...all martial arts has proven their worth in historiy and if they did function they would not have survived as a system....

but all systems have flaws and weaknesses...that is why i love to crosstrain...because then you discover and learn at the same time......


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> _Originally posted by someguy _
> *Depends on the system of wing chun they use.
> btw Renegade bring a big stick after me and ill get an even bigger on.  Then you must get a bigger stick to beat me and i'll then have to get a bigger stick to beat you.  In the end we will play bugs bunny and Yosimite Sam but with sticks. *



I'll get you from long range:

First :snipe: 


Then :xwing: 

Finally
:redeme: 




:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Tapps _
> *Triangular footwork ...... and keep moving *



Yes, trying to zone outside is a good idea--they tend to emphasize staright-down-the-center, so angle outside. 

If you're caught in tight, remember your limb destructions! Let them punch you in the elbow.


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## Tapps

> Hit them with a stick!



This is Renegades answer to most problems.

Fighting, balancing his checking account, buying girl scout cookies.

It's an all-encompassing philosophy


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## Toasty

Paulie...
How's it going man?

You are not really telling him to attempt to beat a Wing Chun guy with Mod. Arnis style trapping hands are you?!
Wing chun specializes in trapping hands (and legs & body for that matter) and has for several hundred years.
I would think that Mod. Arnis must have other things in its arsenal to compete against a trapping specialist. Perhaps the joint locking & throws?


later dude
Rob


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Toasty _
> *Paulie...
> How's it going man?
> 
> You are not really telling him to attempt to beat a Wing Chun guy with Mod. Arnis style trapping hands are you?!
> Wing chun specializes in trapping hands (and legs & body for that matter) and has for several hundred years.
> I would think that Mod. Arnis must have other things in its arsenal to compete against a trapping specialist. Perhaps the joint locking & throws?
> 
> 
> later dude
> Rob *



Am I telling him to use Modern Arnis Trapping on a Wing Chun Guy.....why yes!  

Here is why...

#1 Trapping is trapping...whether it is Wing Chun, Modern Arnis, or what have you. I've out trapped Wing Chun people before. I am sure that there are some Wing Chun people who can out trap me. I know that Wing Chun people primarily do trapping, however, this doesn't mean that a Person of another art can't out trap them. It all depends on the skill of the practitioner. "It's all da Same..." as Remy used to say to us.

#2 Trying to out do someone at a skill who may be better at that skill then you is a great way to improve that skill within yourself. I sometimes learn the most when I play by the other persons rules.

#3 Speaking of Rules...I posted with the thought that they probably have peramiters set for their sparring...they probably aren't allowed to do joint locks. However, even if they are, in a controlled sparring circumstance it can be very difficult to put a joint lock on an opponent who is throwing controlled strikes in sparring; Joint locks generally require committed attacks. Regardless, even if the attacks are committed enough, even then most joint locks require an innitial attack or distraction of some sort....a softening technique. So getting some sort of strike in still may be a requirement.


Now, I do agree that there are other strategies that one can use; you don't have to play the trapping game with a trapper. If your accustomed to ground fighting, you can do take-downs. If you are accustomed to the distance game, like a tournament sparrer, you can force him into a ame of tag. There are other strategies...but that just depends on what your good at.

PAUL


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## streetwise

Engage high like you want to duke it out, draw a response, shoot low for the double leg. I like WC, but this works over and over, especially against the aggressive chain punchers.


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## Rocky

As a person who incorperates much Wing Chun Do into my art, I have always found that traditional Wing Chun (Tsun) have a hard time dealing with anyone who takes their corner, as do most martial artist from Judo to Ju Jitsu to Eskrima, which is why CDM concentrates so much on learning to take an opponents corners away from them. If you can take a Wing Chun mans corner, their traditional foot work doesn't work to well for them. You might also try to come in low and under his center point while taking the corner on him.

 Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points.  In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.

 Of course you could learn our trapping and you would have the best of both worlds 


Rocky


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> {quote]or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!!



:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Mike


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *As a person who incorperates much Wing Chun Do into my art, I have always found that traditional Wing Chun (Tsun) have a hard time dealing with anyone who takes their corner, as do most martial artist from Judo to Ju Jitsu to Eskrima, which is why CDM concentrates so much on learning to take an opponents corners away from them. If you can take a Wing Chun mans corner, their traditional foot work doesn't work to well for them. You might also try to come in low and under his center point while taking the corner on him.
> 
> Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points.  In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.
> 
> Of course you could learn our trapping and you would have the best of both worlds
> 
> 
> Rocky *



Rocky-  In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy?  One thing that you dont want to do is play their game.  IMO, I'd have to say clinch and take it to the ground.  I've seen a few NHB fights with WC guys and once the grappler gets the clinch and takes it down, its the beginning of the end for the WC guy.  And yes, before anyone says, "Why do you want to go to the ground? There might be broken glass and rocks there!"  Sure there just might be.  But, if its a matter of getting a little scrapped up or getting my a** kicked, I'm gonna go to the ground.

Mike


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## Cruentus

> Paul. sorry dude you relly need to work with some Wing Chun people, it is ill advised to try to out trap a Wing Chun man, thats like bringing a knife to a gun fight, or dating a girl who just broke up with Ron Jeremy, you may think you're up to the task, but you may find yourself coming up a little bit short!!!!!!!! You will probably be playing right into their strong points. In my own personal experience their is much difference between a MA practioners trapping and a Wing Chun mans trapping.





> In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy? One thing that you dont want to do is play their game.



Guys...it really depends on your objective. When ArnisNewbie posted, I wasn't under the impression that they were fighting, I was under the impression that he was training with and sparring with a Wing Chun guy. There is a huge difference. If I am fighting a Wing Chun guy, meaning no rules, then I like Hartmans answer, "Just hit him with a stick."

But since I believe we are talking about sparring with rules and peramiters, I guess your strategy will depend on those rules and peramiters, now won't it? If the rules are designed so you have to play the Wing Chun game...then what will you do?

Also...what is the objective here? With ArnisNewbie's only a few months of training, he should be trying to play the Wing Chun game...then he would learn their traps and improve. If his objective is to spar, have fun, and learn, then I would say that by playing the trapping game with a trapping specialist, what better way to improve? Now if his objective is to win, then I would agree that you might want to not play the trapping game.

I still say that playing the trapping game with a wing Chun guy can be a great idea...depending on what your objective is.

btw...I have played with both JKD and Wing Chun people before, but I know very little of the art myself. In my younger days, I enjoyed playing the trapping game with them because it helped me learn how to trap better, even though I was frequently beat. Now, in my older days, I am not beat as much, if at all. Somethin' to think about.....


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## Tapps

The stick thing does have it's appeal !


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## arnisandyz

Hi,

Anyone familiar with WC butterfly knives and how it compares to arnis-escrima doble baston/sinawali?  I've rented a couple videos, but it was primarily forms. Alot of the things were very similar, but it had a different 'feel" to it. (less flow?)

Thanks

Andy


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## Rocky

Paul Wrote:



> Guys...it really depends on your objective. When ArnisNewbie posted, I wasn't under the impression that they were fighting, I was under the impression that he was training with and sparring with a Wing Chun guy. There is a huge difference. If I am fighting a Wing Chun guy, meaning no rules, then I like Hartmans answer, "Just hit him with a stick."



Yep your're right Paul it does depend on what you objective is. Which is a great tie in for what follows.



> Rocky- In your oopinion, what would be the best way to defeat a WC guy? One thing that you dont want to do is play their game. IMO, I'd have to say clinch and take it to the ground. I've seen a few NHB fights with WC guys and once the grappler gets the clinch and takes it down, its the beginning of the end for the WC guy. And yes, before anyone says, "Why do you want to go to the ground? There might be broken glass and rocks there!" Sure there just might be. But, if its a matter of getting a little scrapped up or getting my a** kicked, I'm gonna go to the ground.



Well like Paul said it depends on what you are doing. If its a street fight and we are one on one with each other no one else around I might try to take him to the ground.

 But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY" 

 And if you end up on the ground with someone who might have a knife in his pocket, he might serve your liver up with a little onion and some Farva (SP) beans if you know what I mean!!


Rocky


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## Tapps

> the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground,



Good Point !


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## ArnisNewbie

Hey Guys...

I am sorry i haven't had time to post for a while...but i have read the discussion and found it very interresting...

and as Paul said...my first intention was to spar with the guy and check out the way the WC guys fight and learn something from him...I know that he is more experienced than me and all that but as i stated in earlier....i fell that i learn something each time i get my **** kicked when i spar....i mean it is important to know what your opponent is capable of doing if you should meet a WC guy on the street...but then again if i meet him i would probably have some sort of equalizer a pen or something else at hand which i can put to use...

it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...

now you mention that he would have a knife...but if you look at it...it might be very unlikely that he would have a knife...he knows how to defend himself in hand to hand and he is freaking good at it...what the chance he has a knife
Where i live people have a knife because it serves as an equalizer and they can hide behind the weapon....it is not very often you meet a guy with a knife you knows how to use it....people who's train martial arts feel more confident about themselfves so they won't need a knife and esp. not a WC/WT guy

you can disagree but that just my opinion.....


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by ArnisNewbie _
> *Hey Guys...
> 
> I am sorry i haven't had time to post for a while...but i have read the discussion and found it very interresting...
> 
> and as Paul said...my first intention was to spar with the guy and check out the way the WC guys fight and learn something from him...I know that he is more experienced than me and all that but as i stated in earlier....i fell that i learn something each time i get my **** kicked when i spar....i mean it is important to know what your opponent is capable of doing if you should meet a WC guy on the street...but then again if i meet him i would probably have some sort of equalizer a pen or something else at hand which i can put to use... *


*

That's what I sorta thought...which is why I responded like I did. If I thought you were asking me how to beat up the wing chun guy who kicks your @$$ and steals your money every day on the way to the bus station, we would be having an entirely different conversation. Since I figured you were looking to learn something from him, I'd play his game. When he tags you, pause the match, and ask him to teach you what he just did, SLOWLY. I can say from experience, this is a great way to learn, especially while your training in primarily in another art. In a different thread, you mentioned the idea of crosstraining, but that you've only been training for a fea months. I say stick to one art that's versitile, like modern arnis, but spar and "play" with people from other arts like this Wing Chun guy. You'll learn how other arts move, and how you can use what you know to counter. You can find solutions to problems you have when sparring/playing with others within' Modern Arnis. You can experience different styles w/o having to break away from learning your base. This is a great way to learn, and become a better fighter!




			it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...
		
Click to expand...


No style or practitioner is unbeatable at anything. Wing Chun just happends to focus on hand trapping, the same way Brazilian Jujitsu focus' on grappling, and Sayok Kali focus' on knife work. It's all the same. This doesn't mean that you can't take what you've learned from your style to try to beat them at their specialty. It all depends on your strengths and weaknesses, and by playing the game of the other style, you'll strengthen your own weaknesses.




			now you mention that he would have a knife...but if you look at it...it might be very unlikely that he would have a knife...he knows how to defend himself in hand to hand and he is freaking good at it...what the chance he has a knife
Where i live people have a knife because it serves as an equalizer and they can hide behind the weapon....it is not very often you meet a guy with a knife you knows how to use it....people who's train martial arts feel more confident about themselfves so they won't need a knife and esp. not a WC/WT guy

you can disagree but that just my opinion.....
		
Click to expand...

*
I don't know what its like where you are from in terms of weapons laws and such. But I will say that I am confident enough with 19 years of training in the martial arts that my empty hand ability is good enough to defend myself against MOST people who would attack me. However, I still carry a knife in case the odds are against me. I still have a firearm in my home. I still carry a nice heavy rattan in the car. And if I am attacked and I am not carrying my own weapon, I'll bet I'll find a weapon of opportunity in my environment that resembles a blunt, bladed, or flexable weapon. I guess I am just saying that I wouldn't underestimate the idea that a skilled empty hand person would use a weapon.

However, lucky for you and me, the odds are extremely low that we will be attacked on the street by someone who is trained, so we have very little worries. We are more likely to be attacked by someone who has a weapon, yet who has little to no formal training. Just something to think about.

Train well....

PAUL
:asian:


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## ArnisNewbie

Hey Paul

Yeah thanx for ya advice...i love to learn from people who are more experienced than me....they always have an advice or two to give...i think the mentality and community is much different in Denmark than in the states...it really amazes me that you have that many weapons at hand...i have none but my fists...as about guns...i don't even know a person who owns a gun...only the police and the military carry firearms here...and they are extremely carefull when they use it....but i understand why you carry the weapons....i respect and fear weapons a lot...but i think that you would be better to defend youself agains one if you know how to use it yourself...as is the philosophy in Arnis....

there was also another reason why wanted to know aboyt WC.....it is becomming a very populair martial art in Denmark...like it is the new fashion...i know a enough about arts like karate, thai boxing, Aikido, Jiu jitsu...but with WC/WT i know almost nothing...and that is why i spar with that guy.....and also for fun...that is primarely why i train..to have fun and meet new people.....

though There are many paths 
At the foot of the mountain 
All those who reach the top 
See the same moon


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Agreed.  But, a few things to keep in mind here.
> 
> 1- Not every fight is going to take place in a bar or crowded area.
> 
> 2- Not every fight is going to have mult. attackers.
> 
> 3- If you do go to the ground, you will need the skills to get back to your feet.
> 
> 4- If you are in a place that is that crowded, a good portion of the things that you might try doing, will probably go out the window cuz there wont be that much room to move anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And if you end up on the ground with someone who might have a knife in his pocket, he might serve your liver up with a little onion and some Farva (SP) beans if you know what I mean!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah, that is definately something to worry about.  A knife is something that is easy to conceal.  Getting back to your feet is the best option there.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by ArnisNewbie _
> 
> 
> 
> it is difficult to put one art up against another but the reason i wanted to know about WC was because i had heard that they were almost unbeatable but they must have some weak points all classical arts do have a few...but as of the guys pointed out i would take a WC guy down if it was only him...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I dont know who told you that WC guys are unbeatable!  If that was the case, then there wouldnt be any other art around, only WC.  Sure, they have some good stuff, but it definately not the ultimate art.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


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## Cruentus

> But contrary to what the BJJ worshippers think, the UFC is still not street fighting , the last place you want to be in a bar or crowd somewhere is on the ground, while you are trying to do your best Royce Gracie imitation, someone will be stomping the the back of your skull in and you end up with a nick name like "ROCKY"



I don't know why I found this one so funny...I literally laughed out loud and pop came out my nose when I read this!

:rofl: :rofl:


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## ArnisNewbie

MJS

hmm guess i have to rephrase that one...what i meant was that dominate the centerline very good...and that they are not to be joked with in a fight...and yeah i got ya point...but again...WC is a tool just like most other arts and in the hands of the right person it can be very deadly.....

and i know that no one i unbeatable...i was just putting things on the edge so people could understand my point...sorry...


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## Rocky

> Getting back to your feet is the best option there.



True Dat! True Dat!


 The most important thing about ground fighting is the ability to get back to your feet as soon as possible!!


 This is a philosophy I found to be true in more than just the martial arts!! " No when to go down and when not to go down!!" 

And of course fights will not always be in the bar or a crowd, nor will the ground always be soft and fluffy. Falling on a rock, bottle or what ever can make of a very painfull experience. This is why I teach my fathers type of take downs, he always said if a man can fight after you take him down or throw him down, then you get what you deserve. Another saying he was fond of when people would ask him about break falling, he would say yes!! you should make him break when he falls!!!


Rocky


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by ArnisNewbie _
> *MJS
> 
> hmm guess i have to rephrase that one...what i meant was that dominate the centerline very good...and that they are not to be joked with in a fight...and yeah i got ya point...but again...WC is a tool just like most other arts and in the hands of the right person it can be very deadly.....
> 
> and i know that no one i unbeatable...i was just putting things on the edge so people could understand my point...sorry... *



No disrespect meant.  Sorry if I came across that way.  A friend of mine trained in WC for a while.  I had the chance to meet with his Inst. and talk with him, and I have to say, that I was very impressed with his skills.  IMO, there is something that can be learned from every art.  WC is definately good when it comes to trapping.  I would have to say that the best thing to do when facing someone, is to take them out of their game.  If they want to stand and punch, close the gap and take them to the ground.  If they want to grapple, try to stay up and strike.  In the long run, I guess its just like a game of chess---one person has to out think the other.

Mike


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## sercuerdasfigther

w.c. and fma empty hands really aren't that different. the angulation is a bit different becuse fma doesnt stick to centerline, but there are many things in common and in tight they resemble each other. both arts are good trappers(w,c. on centerline,fma off centerline) both arts develop sticking hand fighting and both chain strikes together. many wing chun guys train fma becuase they blend well.


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## Marvin

Hi all, I have never been able to apply trapping going aganst a full out partner.
Marvin


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi all, I have never been able to apply trapping going aganst a full out partner.
> Marvin *



Thats too bad.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi all, I have never been able to apply trapping going aganst a full out partner.*



Can you be more specific about what you tried?


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi all, I have never been able to apply trapping going aganst a full out partner.
> Marvin *



Marvin,

Welcome to Martial Talk.

As asked by Arnisador, could you give specifics. 

There are people here with lots of knowledge and history and contacts that could help.

:asian:


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## Marvin

Hi again, when I tried trapping, (Unless you count patting the jab trapping) it always seems like I'd get the punch on the way out or the punch would blow right by. 
As far as what I've tried; hubud, trapping hands, W.C. immovable elbow. etc.
Marvin


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## arnisador

Wing Chun style trapping, I've been told, is more for when you "clash" and are jammed up. FMA-style guntings or destructions work well in other situations.


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## arnisador

Blank post deleted.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## sercuerdasfigther

wc trapping comes into play when your opponent tries to occupy centerline on you. thats what it is for. a wc guy wants to control centerline and blast you , so wc trapping is designed if the opponent trires to take centerline away from you. fma trapping can come from off line and be as little as jamming one of you opponents arms against his body.


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## streetblaster

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi again, when I tried trapping, (Unless you count patting the jab trapping) it always seems like I'd get the punch on the way out or the punch would blow right by.
> As far as what I've tried; hubud, trapping hands, W.C. immovable elbow. etc.
> Marvin *



You probably have not practiced enough, trhaning these moves take quite a while to get them.


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi again, when I tried trapping, (Unless you count patting the jab trapping) it always seems like I'd get the punch on the way out or the punch would blow right by.
> As far as what I've tried; hubud, trapping hands, W.C. immovable elbow. etc.
> Marvin *



I've seen this happend a lot. People practice trapping in class, usually by doing drills, where the partner isn't committed in the attack...so they just slap the hand. Then when facing a committed attack, the punch goes right through the parry and into the face.

The reason is, a parry or trap isn't just a slap with no energy behind it. You parry with the whole body, just as you strike with the whole body. Your parry should involve proper body mechanics so that you redirect his force.

Beyond what I just said, I'd actually have to see what you are doing when you trap to offer any additional advise.

PAUL
:asian:


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## Marvin

> _Originally posted by streetblaster _
> *You probably have not practiced enough, trhaning these moves take quite a while to get them. *


Hi streetblaster, what constitutes "a while"?


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## Marvin

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I've seen this happend a lot. People practice trapping in class, usually by doing drills, where the partner isn't committed in the attack...so they just slap the hand. Then when facing a committed attack, the punch goes right through the parry and into the face.
> 
> The reason is, a parry or trap isn't just a slap with no energy behind it. You parry with the whole body, just as you strike with the whole body. Your parry should involve proper body mechanics so that you redirect his force.
> 
> Beyond what I just said, I'd actually have to see what you are doing when you trap to offer any additional advise.
> 
> PAUL
> :asian: *


Hi Paul, I guess I should have been a little more explicit in my description. Against other f.m.a.s and W.C., not a problem. But folks with a good western boxing base, no way.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi Paul, I guess I should have been a little more explicit in my description. Against other f.m.a.s and W.C., not a problem. But folks with a good western boxing base, no way. *



Thats where the destructions come into play!!!

Mike


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## streetblaster

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi streetblaster, what constitutes "a while"? *



you can;t learn it in a day, it may take up to a couple years to be able to apply trapping


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## Marvin

> _Originally posted by streetblaster _
> *you can;t learn it in a day, it may take up to a couple years to be able to apply trapping *


Streetblaster, that's fine, but what about people that are training for the now. What if they don't have the option of waiting 2 years, if ever,  to be able to apply their technique?


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## Cruentus

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Hi Paul, I guess I should have been a little more explicit in my description. Against other f.m.a.s and W.C., not a problem. But folks with a good western boxing base, no way. *



Boxing is a great fighting sport...no question about it. But like anything, its not an end all be all.

The problem with fighting a boxer if your a trapper is that they don't like to play the trapping game, so I agree that it is difficult to trap a boxer.

Yet, you don't have to play his game either. Someone mentioned limb destructions? What if you grab one of his wrists? 

There are a lot of options you have, and a lot of circumstances where the boxer could get trapped. 

Yet, I agree; it is very difficult to bait a boxer into the trapping game.


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## streetblaster

> _Originally posted by Marvin _
> *Streetblaster, that's fine, but what about people that are training for the now. What if they don't have the option of waiting 2 years, if ever,  to be able to apply their technique? *



Maybe you  can't get it to work, but I can pull of trapping, no problem!! 
it just come down to the individual doing the technique


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## brothershaw

1- I never thought of trapping as more than a tool, I have always been more concerned with hitting and not being hit. A trap usually coming after other things have already happened. 
2- As far as comments about training time to do things well, every art has great things that you may want to do but you have to train them for a while in order to pull them off, you need a degree of sensitivity, timing etc.
3- Wing chun type trapping MIGHT work better for someone , who had more knowledge of wing chun,as there is training in wing chun that complements the ability to trap as opposed to just getting a piece of the puzzle, but there are no guarantees.
4-  There is no shortcut to training time. The best jkd guy has been training for years , the best karate guy, the best boxer etc. 
No matter how you train there is no way around years of practice if you want to get  close to the top level.  There is no shortcut to proficiency.


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## Tapps

UMMM..

I'd kick a boxer in the knee.

Very few Martial artists are going to be able to stand toe to toe with a boxer in a punching match.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Tapps _
> *UMMM..
> 
> I'd kick a boxer in the knee.
> 
> Very few Martial artists are going to be able to stand toe to toe with a boxer in a punching match. *



I gotta agree with that one!  Punching is not a specialty of mine.  Dont get me wrong, I can punch, but I prefer to kick.  When thats not an option, the clinching and using more close range strikes is something that I prefer.  

As for a boxer, hell yeah, I agree with Tapps.  I'd definately kick.  Taking your opp. out of there game is an important thing to keep in mind.  

Mike


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## Toasty

In my opinion, having studied Wing Chun do & Traditional Wing Chun as well as Kali & Eskrima... If it is taking you a "couple years" to learn how to trap properly - thats about a Year & 1/2 too long!!
The main reason for the development of Wing Chun was so that people could learn an effective self defense system in a small amount of time.

No offense intended, just my opinion. 


best of luck
Rob


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## Tony Torre

First of all let me suggest that Wing Chun and Arnis are very complimentary.  That said let me share my experience with Wing Chun.  Sparring with a friend who is pretty good with Wing Chun I learned real quick to make good use of my angular foot work.  His answer was to cut me off and put his lead hand in my face to provoke a response and form a bridge.  My answer was a gunting that threw off his game.  Lessons learned: Wing Chun guys can be very tough opponents, don't play their game, and sometimes the unexpected can rob their timing.  For the record we both have back grounds in western boxing.

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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## variance

my experience in sparring against aggressive WC guys(only sparred 2) is they dont seem to be too concerned about blasts to their knee or ankle. also a good opportunity for clinch and stand-up locks/grappling/joint destruction.

triangular footwork. angle towards his outside. and then I do simultanous hand/foot attacks. hand to parry/trap/strike or force his hand
and foot to hit his thigh, or knee or ankle depending on my range.
if im really close. trying for a clench then using the knee is pretty effective.


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## Tony Torre

Check out the thread on clinching in Modern Arnis.  Wing Chun seems to have a decent repertoire of low and deceptive kicks.  I no expert in Wing Chun, but I would think that they would have decent defensive skills against at least low kicks.  Of course getting straight blasted in the groin after trying a high kick would probably suck too. 

Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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## robertlk808

_*"Of course getting straight blasted in the groin after trying a high kick would probably suck too."*_ 


Yeah... talk about being used as a punching bag... whew.   Break out the ice bucket.


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## Tony Torre

Ice bucket?!:xtrmshock  On the jewels?!  

LOL
Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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