# If a colleague says they think their life is in danger...



## Carol (Mar 13, 2009)

A 50 year old woman, going through a bad divorce, was shot and killed by her estranged, before the scumbag turned the gun on himself.  She was shot at work (a local vet clinic), leaving her co-workers too shocked and upset to comment on the incident.

What stands out in the story was this graf:



> The victim, Patrice Clemente, 50, had told co-workers she knew her life was in danger. They told her to call police. She chose not to, according to the Atlantic County Prosecutor.


So...for the sake of discussion...

If you hear a colleague mentioning - or even imply - that they think their life is in danger, what would you do?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29656813/


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## jks9199 (Mar 13, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> A 50 year old woman, going through a bad divorce, was shot and killed by her estranged, before the scumbag turned the gun on himself.  She was shot at work (a local vet clinic), leaving her co-workers too shocked and upset to comment on the incident.
> 
> What stands out in the story was this graf:
> 
> ...


Find out why -- and help them deal with it.

But then, my colleagues and I aren't quite normal about things like that!  LOL

In another environment, you have to assess the statement, and, if you feel it's a credible concern, notify the appropriate authorities yourself.  Why?  Because bullets ain't too good about only hitting the "right" person.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 13, 2009)

Carol,

Along time ago this happend to me.

Back in college I worked for a factory in the summer. I was a shear machine operator making parts of sheet metal cabinets.

Well one day a new guy showed up. We will call him 'Bob'. He was lazy. He was a bum. No one liked him. So Gary, the lead man, told Chuck the forman he felt they should fire him. Chuck went through the company policy routine and after a while fired him.

Well not a week later the company started getting telephone calls. The caller would say, "I have a .45 and a .22 and I'm gonna get Chuck." Later he added Gary's name to the threats.

Well people got worried. Now this was Texas before we had a CHL (carry permit) of any kind and you could not even carry your pistol in the car except 'traveling'.

Well Gary, being a young man, asked if he and Larry (a ex-Vietnam vet) could come over and do some practice at my shooting range. They asked cause I was already a gun nut and combat pistol shooter.

So they came by. Gary, being married, had just a .410 guage bolt action shotgun. Larry had a Browning 12 guage auto. I felt ashamed cause here I was with a selection of .45s, .38s, .357s, and some nice rifles.

Well we all did some shooting and then went home.

Each day, after work, several of us would walk outside before Gary came out and sort of scope out the area and stand near our cars with the door open (and guns near by.)

Later that week 'Bob' came by to pick up his last check. Well Officer Hale and his partner (this was a small town and everyone knew the cops) came by and got 'Bob' in the room alone. Had him sit down. After a not-so-polite discussion in which Officer Hale said, "If we hear of any more phone calls like the ones coming in, we will pay you a visit again." They then went outside and stared at him through the window. 

'Bob' left the room shaking.

The phone calls stopped.

And I found out five other guys, besides myself, had guns in their cars just in case. Mine was a .45 and so was the forman of another division.

This was in Texas back in the 1970s.

And all the names, but Bob's, are their names. All good guys.

So yes, Carol, good people can make a difference. Times may have changed but good people can still help. Just have to be a bit more careful so as not to upset the do-gooders.

Deaf


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 13, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Carol,
> 
> Along time ago this happend to me.
> 
> ...


 
I am honored to hopefully soon be sharing a state with you. You are the kind of man I want by my side when things eventually DO go sideways.


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## Deaf Smith (Mar 13, 2009)

Come on down Andy when you can.

Deaf


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## grydth (Mar 13, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Find out why -- and help them deal with it.
> 
> But then, my colleagues and I aren't quite normal about things like that!  LOL
> 
> In another environment, you have to assess the statement, and, if you feel it's a credible concern, notify the appropriate authorities yourself.  Why?  Because bullets ain't too good about only hitting the "right" person.



This is superb advice, as many women are murdered in their workplace by estranged husbands and boyfriends. Police have to know about something to intervene effectively. You could be saving the lives of your coworkers and customers as well as your own. It does not have to be the wife that calls - you can do so!

As Deaf notes, in another good post above, police will often proactively contact the threatener. We had this scenario a couple of times at work and called the police. I don't know what they said or did when they went over, but one called back in tears to apologize and the second was never heard from again.


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## Omar B (Mar 13, 2009)

An old friend of mine had a problem with an ex so I had her move in with me, simple as that.  She's the type of girl who attracts the wrong type of guy always and that was one of the cases where I had to stand up for her.  

Hey, I started MA at  5 and I'm 28, I better be able to step in for a friend once in a while, and you guys better too!  I'm no tough guy or particular big (6'2, 162) but you gotta step in once in a while or what was watching all those Bruce Lee movies and idolizing him for.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

grydth said:


> This is superb advice, as many women are murdered in their workplace by estranged husbands and boyfriends. Police have to know about something to intervene effectively. You could be saving the lives of your coworkers and customers as well as your own. It does not have to be the wife that calls - you can do so!
> 
> As Deaf notes, in another good post above, police will often proactively contact the threatener. We had this scenario a couple of times at work and called the police. I don't know what they said or did when they went over, but one called back in tears to apologize and the second was never heard from again.


 All of which may deter a bluff threat, but will not stop (and in some cases may escalate) a real threat.

Ultimately, notifying the police is important on several different levels.....not all of them based on the fact that the police will be able to do anything to prevent it.  

Creating a paper trail is useful in the event that the threat pushes the issue to the point that lethal intervention on the part of the targeted victim becomes necessary.  

It's useful in court, in a self-defense case, to be able to point to calls made to the police about threats and incidents that happened previously.

It's always important to remember that things like Orders of Protection act as a deterrent BEST where the threat is more bluff than anything.  It is only paper when the threat intends real harm, and doesn't stop knives and bullets.  It's important to understand the psychology involved in many of these incidents.......the threat feels that the ex-wife or ex-girlfriend is trying to destroy his life......an ex-parte and all it entails may not serve the purpose of stopping him, it may throw fuel on the fire.  Anyone having an ex-parte served on someone else should keep in mind the possibility that it may be the catalyst to a HUGE EXPLOSION, and prepare accordingly.


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## still learning (Mar 14, 2009)

Hello, Unregretable for sure when someone is threaten....the laws protect the bad guys more....

Read the "Gift of Fear" ...has some great in -sites on what to do.

TRO do not work...after all it is just a piece of paper. ( works only for the non-violent people).  Read the Gift of Fear.

On the news the other day...4 women DIE ,day each day because of ex-husbands or boyfriends...threaten them and folllow thru on there threats..

Most police departments cannot always be there...and unless that person actully do something....the police has NO choice and can do nothing.

Man make the laws...Man is not always smart...therefore we will get laws that is "NOT"  working.

Remember...most laws protect the guilty than the innocences....look around...

Aloha,  on innocence teacher had a dead battery waited for the Husband for a ride home at a table outside of the hair dresser (just got her hair done...a unstable person just release for the Hospital...brought a knife and kill the teacher...just about two weeks ago....

Hospital just follow there rules and had to let the person go...


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Unregretable for sure when someone is threaten....the laws protect the bad guys more....
> 
> Read the "Gift of Fear" ...has some great in -sites on what to do.
> 
> ...



I agree in large part.......but keep in mind, most of us would not want to live in the kind of society that could prevent all such acts......that would be a cure worse than the disease.......think 1984.....


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## jarrod (Mar 14, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> So...for the sake of discussion...
> 
> If you hear a colleague mentioning - or even imply - that they think their life is in danger, what would you do?


 
advise them as best i can, & leave them to make their own decision.  may not be heroic, but i fully support people's right to screw up their lives as they see fit.

jf


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 14, 2009)

jarrod said:


> advise them as best i can, & leave them to make their own decision.  may not be heroic, but i fully support people's right to screw up their lives as they see fit.
> 
> jf


 I concur.....that's what being an adult is all about.


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## Guardian (Mar 14, 2009)

Deaf - That's the way we do it in Texas for sure.

Contacting the LEs is the way to go for paperwork trails as SgtMac pointed out is always a CYA.

Defininately try and help out in any way or manner I can.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 14, 2009)

I would strongly urge them to call the police as well... however I don't think I would do it myself because I could get in trouble for calling the police if that person refuses to say anything to them about it.  It'd be akin to a prank call. I dunno. Now if they said it in front of two or three other people along with me then I have witnesses but until they concur my story that said person had talked about being in fear of their life and that person concurs as well... :idunno: 
Having someone shot while at work would be terrible.


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## searcher (Mar 14, 2009)

I start off with calling the police for them and then handing them the phone.    I do this or offer to drive them to the police station.

I also give them advice on relocation or other personal protection ideas(not always firearms, but I do discuss it with them).

Try to advise them as best I can, but in the end it is up to them.    I will, at the least, have my firearm on me just in case the BG decides to show up while we are at work.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> I would strongly urge them to call the police as well... however I don't think I would do it myself because I could get in trouble for calling the police if that person refuses to say anything to them about it.  It'd be akin to a prank call. I dunno. Now if they said it in front of two or three other people along with me then I have witnesses but until they concur my story that said person had talked about being in fear of their life and that person concurs as well... :idunno:
> Having someone shot while at work would be terrible.


 I certainly wouldn't call the police for them........unless I believe there is a threat to the work place.  Then I might call an officer out to explain the situation to them, and that she doesn't want anything done on her end, but to let them know about your concerns about this guy, and what you know about him as per a possible incident at your workplace.

That would be a managers job, or someone with authority over the workplace.  Give the police a description of the guy, and the threat he might be, so that if 911 calls start pouring in from the workplace, they'll have a heads up what might be going on.  Forewarned is forearmed.


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## tellner (Mar 15, 2009)

_The Gift of Fear_ is a good book. But if suffers from two glaring flaws. 

First, his advice for serious situations is "Pay GdB Associates a metric butt-load of money to assess your risk for you." That's nice if you're a large corporation or one of the very wealthy. It's kind of useless for the rest of us. And if he decides you're at risk it doesn't do much to stop if. 

Second he has an irrational fear of guns. If you read about his early life it makes sense. He had traumatic experiences with them at an very young age. But he is completely blind and dismissive of all the evidence on the other side and doesn't really offer much in the way of useful advice if one is at risk and can't hire full-time bodyguards. He talks about self defense classes and less-than-lethal devices. Having been in this game for a fair while I can speak with some confidence about their limitations. Capsule summary: Using your fists or pepper spray when someone wants to kill you is putting yourself at a fatal disadvantage.


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

tellner said:


> _The Gift of Fear_ is a good book. But if suffers from two glaring flaws.
> 
> First, his advice for serious situations is "Pay GdB Associates a metric butt-load of money to assess your risk for you." That's nice if you're a large corporation or one of the very wealthy. It's kind of useless for the rest of us. And if he decides you're at risk it doesn't do much to stop if.
> 
> Second he has an irrational fear of guns. If you read about his early life it makes sense. He had traumatic experiences with them at an very young age. But he is completely blind and dismissive of all the evidence on the other side and doesn't really offer much in the way of useful advice if one is at risk and can't hire full-time bodyguards. He talks about self defense classes and less-than-lethal devices. Having been in this game for a fair while I can speak with some confidence about their limitations. Capsule summary: Using your fists or pepper spray when someone wants to kill you is putting yourself at a fatal disadvantage.


Touche!

Nothing says 'failed to properly prepare' like bringing a fist to a gunfight......except maybe bringing an Order of Protection to a gunfight.


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## tellner (Mar 15, 2009)

From the Dixie Chicks' _Goodbye Earl_:
Well it wasn't two weeks
 after she got married that
 Wanda started gettin' abused
 She put on dark glasses and long sleeved blouses
 And make-up to cover a bruise
 Well she finally got the nerve to file for divorce
 She let the law take it from there
 But Earl walked right through that restraining order
 And put her in intensive care​


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 15, 2009)

tellner said:


> From the Dixie Chicks' _Goodbye Earl_:Well it wasn't two weeks
> after she got married that
> Wanda started gettin' abused
> She put on dark glasses and long sleeved blouses
> ...


 Restraining orders only work for those who really didn't intend to do anything but petty harassment in the first place.

What some folks don't want to hear is that in some cases a restraining order can actually be the catalyst that creates the explosion......especially if the restraining order has other negative consequences for the 'threat'........such as causing him/her to lose their job or get suspended (Military/LEO)..........from the mindset of the 'threat' they are already the victim themselves, and such a provocative act may create a 'What the hell else do I have to lose' situation.......which is when the fireworks start.

I always worry about that when suggesting to folks they get a restraining order.......sometimes it's necessary, but it can possibly be too provocative and intrusive for a given situation..........rule of unintended consequences.


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## tellner (Mar 15, 2009)

It does some very useful things.



It makes future claims of self defense a lot more credible
It creates a paper trail
It forces the police to take notice and file reports even when they'd rather not bother
Violations establish a pattern of behavior that is very useful in Court

What it doesn't do is stop bullets or fists


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## still learning (Mar 15, 2009)

Hello,  Instincts...can tell you alot.

When someone threatens you or you feel threaten....NO laws were ever broken...therefore...the POLICE and our LAWS...cannot help you.

Always trust your instincts....REACT wisely...

If YOUR LIFE IS IN DANGER...hide or leave....The laws says everyone is innosences till they do something bad.

Off course than it is TOO LATE....Bad guys always win here!!!

Aloha


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## jks9199 (Mar 15, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello,  Instincts...can tell you alot.
> 
> When someone threatens you or you feel threaten....NO laws were ever broken...therefore...the POLICE and our LAWS...cannot help you.
> 
> ...


Incorrect.  In many states, it is indeed illegal to threaten someone.  The exact charge would vary by circumstances (for example, whether the threat was communicated by phone or in person or involved a weapon).


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 16, 2009)

tellner said:


> It does some very useful things.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Absolutely.......it's a tool, and like all tools, it's important to understand what it does do, and more importantly, what it won't do.

It's important for anyone getting one to realize it does NOT, by itself, protect them from violence.


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## teekin (Mar 17, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Touche!
> 
> Nothing says 'failed to properly prepare' like bringing a fist to a gunfight......except maybe bringing an *Order of Protection* to a gunfight.



May as well write the damn things on toilet paper, at least then they would be useful.
lori


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## chinto (Mar 23, 2009)

I would try to get her/him to go to the cops, that failing, would try to make sure they were trained and armed if possible, but ultimately it is up to the person that is under threat as well we can not be there always where they are. If they will not take steps to safeguard themselves there is provably a very limited amount of things you can do .


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## Cryozombie (Mar 24, 2009)

Omar B said:


> An old friend of mine had a problem with an ex so I had her move in with me, simple as that.  She's the type of girl who attracts the wrong type of guy always and that was one of the cases where I had to stand up for her.



Wow, good thing for her she wasn't fat, so you were willing to do that for her... LOL.

Credible threats are always difficult... I believe it was in "gift of fear" that he says that if someone actually MAKES a threat, then chances are the threat is the action.  I dont really agree with that, but It does happen.  I think the important thing is: If someone mentions something like that, get them to dialog so you can a) convince them they arent being silly so they take themselves seriously, and b) assess how serious the threat may be, so you can get whatever assistance is neccessary.  I think it's important tho, not to dismiss it out of hand with a "oh Im sure it will be ok" or somesuch because you are uncomfortable with the subject... it does everyone a disservice IMHO.


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## teekin (Mar 24, 2009)

chinto said:


> I would try to get her/him to go to the cops, that failing, *would try to make sure they were trained and armed if possible,* but *ultimately it is up to the person that is under threat as well we can not be there always where they are. If they will not take steps to safeguard themselves* there is provably a *very limited amount of things you can do .*




OK Chinto do not take this personally, I am not attacking you just the words you wrote. As to the first part of your statement, unless you can train her up to the standards of say Marine Spec. Ops. before she leaves the building and lend her your 1911 .45 to illegally conceal carry, how are you going to do that?
 Second part of the statement I am taking Serious Issue with! This is making it the victims fault.:angry: So because she won't or can't help herself she deserves what she gets? :disgust: What steps would* You *suggest she take? That don't break the law or end up with her dead. Perhaps there are a limited amount of things You can do but there are lots of resources out there that are available for her. Contact an abuse shelter hotline or a woman's clinic and ask to speak to an abuse counselor.:yoda:
lori


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## AoCAdam (Mar 24, 2009)

Well that sucks, If a good friend of mine told me she was in trouble I would have her call the police. Its important to learn from these tragic events.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2009)

AoCAdam said:


> Well that sucks, If a good friend of mine told me she was in trouble I would have her call the police. Its important to learn from these tragic events.



How would you do that?


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