# Teaching Kenpo to Non-Kenpoist



## Michael Billings (Aug 26, 2003)

What do you think?  If you only have a weekend to teach (like at a camp or seminar) and have several 1-1/2 hour classes to the same students:

1.  What part of Kenpo would *YOU* want to teach?

2.  What would *YOU* want to be taught?

Several assumptions here, i.e. your students are all martial artists and they range from beginners through advanced, all in the same class.

Also, interestingly enough, they want actual Kenpo to be taught, not a derivitive of "Kenpo on the Ground" or "Kenpo Cross-training". 

Thoughts?  Suggestions?


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## Robbo (Aug 26, 2003)

Mr. Billings,

I would cover,

1) 3 points of view (forget the term right now)
2) Environmental Considerations
3) 8 ranges of combat 
4) using natural movements in self defense (covered in infinite insights)
5) to regognize and utilize probably the most used way to generate power - gravitational marriage

Sorry for the brevity in the answer but break just ended at work here  

Rob


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 26, 2003)

Well, since these students are already martial artists, this means that they would be cross-training now wouldn't it?

Anyway.  To you topic:  Since there are all ranges of ability, I would have to start at the beginning with introductory material.  I would stress some of the key concepts that Robbo mentioned and maybe do some more advanced basics or combinations with some of the more advanced students.  

Kenpo is a language all its own.  Martial Artists from other styles will need to rethink some basic assumptions about how they move.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 26, 2003)

Hello Mr. Billings 

1. Since time is limited I'd take kenpo principles and apply them to the basics that these people already know. I would use certain kenpo techniques as reenforcing examples of what was taught.

 I would want to make sure they are familliar with the major kenpo concepts and I'd make sure they knew how to apply them to what they already know. Four examples that I would cover are "point of origin", "economy of motion", "reverse motion", and "the various checks" I consider these to be some of the most important kenpo principles. In my humble opinion of course.

2. If I were one of the students to be taught, I would want to be taught the theory behind the art and I'd want to see how it could benefit me/work with what I already know.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 26, 2003)

Yes, lets assume they do want to be cross-trained, but don't want me doing it.  Clear as mud huh?  They want me to present American Kenpo, and they will pick and choose.  I hav no problem with this, or cross-training.  I just don't choose to look at it from outside the American Kenpo framework or paradigm.

Respectfully,
-MB


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## Robbo (Aug 26, 2003)

You could also,

Take a technique that emobodies as many priniceples and concepts as possible and teach it with the complete breakdown. They would come out of the lesson being able to do a technique from AK and be able to apply all the concepts and principles to anything else they are currently doing. Or at least re-examine what they are doing in regards to the principles or concepts they have just learned (or made aware of)

Rob


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## Michael Billings (Aug 26, 2003)

Thanks, good suggestions all.  But what if the basics they practice violate, or do not utilize the Principles, Concepts and Theories?  I do not want to tell them what they do is wrong ... rather add to the repetoire they already have.  

SD Techniques, and pull P,C, &T out of them.  Nomenclature, some is good, but I don't want to overwhelm ... or do I? 

So in this venue, a showcase if you will, foundations of movement, some Kenpo Tools, Web of Knowledge by Type of Attack, etc.? 

What techniques would you teach?
What Principles, Concepts, or Theories?



> _Orig Posted by Robbo_
> 
> 1) 3 points of view (forget the term right now)
> 2) Environmental Considerations
> ...



*I would add Rotation and Body Momentum and moving through the 3 dimensions*



> _Orig Posted by MartialArtsGuy_
> 
> ... make sure they are familliar with the major kenpo concepts and I'd make sure they knew how to apply them to what they already know ... I would cover are "point of origin", "economy of motion", "reverse motion", and "the various checks"



*Good suggestions, there is just so much.  But I like your looking at it in the context of what you would want to be taught.*

Thanks All & Keep 'em coming.

Which would you like to learn as a student?

-MB


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Aug 26, 2003)

MIchael:  My first sentence was a little too flippant.  Sorry.  

As someone who has started over from scratch a few times, I think that you need to do the same with this hypothetical class.  Start them from scratch with Kenpo concepts, basics,  and techniques.  Teach them the way you would any beginner.  After a while, you will better guage their skill and ability to transition to the Kenpo way and can introduce more advanced material as appropriate.


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 26, 2003)

martialTALKguy did you just call me martial talk guy. lol:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

Maybe i have been posting too much. 

I see what you mean by their basics being in conflict with kenpo principles. Maybe I was not detailed enough, but I mean't that you could use their basics as the frame work and tweak here and there. I hope our definition of "basics" is the same. For example, If they throw a reverse punch and than bring it back to the chambered position, maybe you could show them that they can bring it back to a checking position or that they can keep the motion going and go into another strike. 

Rather than tell them that they are "wrong" show them what else they can do that may be of more use. 

Is it safe to say you only have 4, 1 and 1/2 hour classes with this group and thats it. Thats 2 classes per day on Sat. and Sun. on one weekend seminar/camp???????

MartialTalkGuy :rofl: :rofl:


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 26, 2003)

I forgot to mention that applying the family groupings general patterns to what they all ready know could help. I'm guessing you only have around 6 to 8 hours to work with them, and that makes it pretty tough. Very interesting though.


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## Nightingale (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Well, since these students are already martial artists, this means that they would be cross-training now wouldn't it?
> *




:deadhorse


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## Michael Billings (Aug 26, 2003)

Whoops!  I swear I thought it was MartialTalk Guy  

Yes, that is the time I will probably have.  I have no real issues about seeing where they are, what we have in common, and where to go from there.  But as students of the Arts, I thought it might be interesting to get yalls perspective and guidence.  I never rule out where I will learn new material or conceptual ways of presenting our Art.

Oss


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## Michael Billings (Aug 26, 2003)

I took it the way you meant it 

I knew what you meant.  You know I do cross-train ... but not really.  We have to agree to disagree, but I have never had a problem with those who want to pursue this.  

So now I wanted some feedback from those guys who do it all the time ... and what yall would look for:asian: .

-MB


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2003)

First of all I would take on a John Sepulvida seminar trait and loose the ego (if you got one). As someone stated before, starting from the perspective that you are working with agroup of people whom are doing things wrong will show through and make things a bit counter productive. I would devote each half hour session to "one" lesson of your choosing. As groups form and you start seeing things you like, point that out to the the individual and show him a thing or two about how he is on the right track and where he or she can go with their discovery.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 26, 2003)

I would not worry about what they had learned in the past unless they asked questions like "we block a right straight punch like this why di you do it like that?"  at which time I would address them as appropriately as possible with out knocking their chosen form of MA. Taking them through the yellow belt will  give them a very good idea of what Kenpo is and if it is something that they wish to persue further. Any technique can be taken to a black belt level for the advanced students on a one on one basis as they work the material on each other. I would not get into the technical stuff as much unless questions were asked. The technical side of kenpo can be  overwhelming which is why it is taught over several years and not hours. I might not get through the entire yellow belt in said amount of time but it would still be a good guide to follow.

Salute,
Mike Miler UKF


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo2dabone _
> *I would not worry about what they had learned in the past unless they asked questions like "we block a right straight punch like this why di you do it like that?"  at which time I would address them as appropriately as possible with out knocking their chosen form of MA. Taking them through the yellow belt will  give them a very good idea of what Kenpo is and if it is something that they wish to persue further. Any technique can be taken to a black belt level for the advanced students on a one on one basis as they work the material on each other. I would not get into the technical stuff as much unless questions were asked. The technical side of kenpo can be  overwhelming which is why it is taught over several years and not hours. I might not get through the entire yellow belt in said amount of time but it would still be a good guide to follow.
> 
> Salute,
> Mike Miler UKF *


On this note perhaps you could explain the benefits of blocking on the upside or the downside of the circle. As I have stated before and never got an answer. Perhaps you could start by telling me why you guys do inward blocks on the downside of the circle. I will admit it gives you a return motion from hell but the location of impact is what bothers me. This question may come up in one form or the other.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 28, 2003)

I needed or wanted to gather a collection of ideas for teaching seminars to non-kenpoist.  

First was a camp setting to other Martial Artist.  Now I have a 6 week women's self-defense course starting.  I have a curriculum laid out for this, but am open to new ideas.

The past 12 posts, including one by me, have been on "Inward Blocks" ... way off topic.  I would like to see the discussion on new material or ideas for teaching Kenpo, continue.

Do you 3 guys want me to split the Inward Block stuff into a new thread, or start a new one on it ... it is interesting to me, in an esoteric kinda way, but nothing I will venture into (except maybe in passing) at a camp or seminar.

Just let me know.
Thanks,
-Michael


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## Nightingale (Aug 28, 2003)

split it.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 28, 2003)

I beleive it was my original post that took this thread off topic. It was unintentional I assure you. Please feel free to split this thread. 

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## MartialArtsGuy (Aug 28, 2003)

Split it please

I thought your question was interesting and want to see more replies to it.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 28, 2003)

*<<EDITED: Thread Split to: Kenpo / Kempo - General >Inward Blocks - Upside/Downside Circle >>*

Click Here:

*New Thread: Inward Blocks *


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 28, 2003)

to continue with the original thread  
I was not a kenpoist when I walked into my fist kenpo school. in fact i had many years in other studies.  The instructor and I sat down and talked, he found out that I wanted to learn the system and started me of just as he would anyone else,  leaning the basic stances and first few selfdefence moves. Short form 1 came next and we went from there.


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## kenpo2dabone (Aug 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I needed or wanted to gather a collection of ideas for teaching seminars to non-kenpoist.
> 
> First was a camp setting to other Martial Artist.  Now I have a 6 week women's self-defense course starting.  I have a curriculum laid out for this, but am open to new ideas.
> ...



Were you planning on addressing weapons in the curriculum or were you planning to stick to empty handed attacks? Is the course open to any women who walks in off the street or are you planning to keep it with in the confines of the women in your school and/or other schools? Fellow Martial Artists tend to want indepth training where as the average Jane tends to want to be able to fend and flee. I don't see anything wrong with teaching good Kenpo to either group but for the average Jane group You might want to adapt some techniques to make them simpler where fine motorskills are not necessarily required to fend off the attack so that they can flee. It also does not hurt to have some pepper spray available for purchase along with some instruction on how to use it so long as you make the point that this may not fend off the attacker which is why they need to learn the other stuff as well. 

just some thoughts,

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## ikenpo (Sep 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I needed or wanted to gather a collection of ideas for teaching seminars to non-kenpoist.
> 
> First was a camp setting to other Martial Artist.  Now I have a 6 week women's self-defense course starting.  I have a curriculum laid out for this, but am open to new ideas.
> *



I regards to the women's self-defense course I think the 2 most important things are approaching the participants both mentally and physically. Deal with environmental awareness, not shopping for groceries at midnight, keys in hand before reaching the car, walking with confidence, not being stupid by asking for someone to attack you (this goes for males & females). Acknowledging that there are predators and that survival is at the highest level of success. The other part of this is physical contact. Let them see what it feels like to have an unwanted body on top of them, straddled/between their legs, standing up grabbing them arms pinned/arms free, 6 feet away from them, behind them, etc...basic rote sort of situations that they can practice and have them make some contact with soft pads doing heal palms, knees (to groin), kicks (for shin), etc....There are so many areas to be looked at...

I think people (not you) look at women's self defense and think it can't be that hard, but I think it is an awsome responsibility to take on. The idea that you will place their safety and trust in your hands to give them some (most times false) self confidence from a few hr course. Fortunately, you're doing 6 wks so maybe one or two things will sink in and a situation might be avoided (or handled) based on what you teach.

Of the ones that I've participated in and the vids I've seen Tony Blauer has always impressed me as a no nonsense guy. The other thing I've seen is most times these programs are "WOMEN ONLY", but I've seen "wives with husbands" or provide enough male students, and I thought that worked really well. That way they can practice at home and inflict some pain on their spouses and make up after class. It also focuses on "hands on". 

Just my thoughts,  jb:asian:


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## ikenpo (Sep 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I needed or wanted to gather a collection of ideas for teaching seminars to non-kenpoist.
> 
> First was a camp setting to other Martial Artist.   *



One suggestion would be to see if Landsdale would send you a few of his tapes to borrow. That way you could apply the Kenpo within the framework of what he has already taught and at the same time you won't be re-hashing things they already know. The word is that Landsdale is very good with his system and some Kenpo/FMA/etc.. is already incorporated. So that might be one way to look to at least have a background before you jump in (but you may have already done this..). It isn't like you're going to be teaching a TKD school or some hard style system. These guys are already pretty on it..You might take Delayed Sword, Sword of Destruction and Clutching feathers and teach them individually showing marrige of gravity, body alignment, cancellation of h,w,d then show  a combo of the three..right punch (start delayed without the kick), left punch (into SD) and finish with the inward raking backknuckle  and add the kick at the end to show how it all fits..

Just my thoughts, jb:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 1, 2003)

The tapes are a great idea JB, & I will try to avail myself of them.  I am not stressing about material, or being able to wing a good seminar ... I just want it to be "in addition" to what they are already doing, and teach a bit of our framework.

The women's course I have done for years, on and off at World Gym, now Golds.  But these will all be employees of a very large hi-tech company here in town.  I do a lot of release moves aka elbows, using leverage instead of strength and weak-grab techs.  I also do knees, heel palms, etc.  A lot of natural weapons, natural defenses, some eyes, throat, groin stuff of course, then the ground work and weapons.  I can get a lot done in 6 sessions, but have to spend the 1st 15 min reviewing knees & elbows, step on their knee as a push off and run (raking the eyes of course, when given the opportunity.)  You reviewed my Black thesis for Mr. LaBounty's web page ... so you know I will deal with physical, psychological, emotional responses and adrenal dumps, but not to the exclusion of practice/practice/practice & a use it or lose it mentality.

Thanks again guys,
-Michael:asian:


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## michaeledward (Sep 2, 2003)

Finally decided I want to throw in my two cents worth . . . . 

Working under the assumption that the folks in your class have some level of martial arts / self defense training, I would suggest that you show them one of our kenpo forms. I think the forms open themselves up to training students at different levels ... (there are so many things I am still learning about Short Form 2) ... I think you could tailor the information to the level of your students easily. You certainly can demonstrate many of the rules and principles via the forms. 

I thought I read in one of the Infinite Insights books that the Forms should be taught first, then the techniques. Now that has never struck me as the right way to do it; but you can certainly present a lot of good Kenpo information in Short 2 or Short 3.

I also like, very much, to watch the figurative 'light bulbs' go off in the Yellow Belts students heads the first time they run Short Form 1 against a couple of attackers ... when they see, for the first time, that the motion they have been struggling to comprehend suddenly becomes 'Self-Defense'.

All this being said ... does anyone want to comment on which form would be best to train ... and why ?

Mike


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