# 2 Questions About Aikido.



## Hobberty (Feb 27, 2010)

Firstly:
Why do I see so many posts about "It doesn't work, etc"? Is it good self defense in comparison to kenpo, karate, etc.
Secondly:
Is this a good Aikido Place?
http://www.aikidosj.com/
Thanks.


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## theletch1 (Feb 27, 2010)

As to question 1: Aikido doesn't have a ton of punching and kicking therefore it certainly can't work for SD, right? That's a misconception of course but it's the mindset that many have. Aikido is one of those arts that takes a long (and I mean long) time to become a proficient SD art for the individual. As it compares to kempo and such, well, kempo is a great SD art and will suit you "on the street" much quicker than aikido as it uses strikes which are instinctive for the human being. Aikido requires you to rewire your instincts to an extent to be truly effective. Somewhere in this subforum is a thread called "Erroneous aikido" that goes deeply into much of the information that will serve to answer your question. I'll try to dig up the link and embed it into this post in a moment. ((edit: here's the link to the other thread.  It's well worth a read))

As to question 2: I dug around on the site you linked and have to ask exactly what it is that you're looking for in the study of aikido. There are schools that run the gamut from campfire sing alongs where no-one ever goes home with a bruise to the style that I study (Nihon Goshin Aikido) that is brutal enough that it's often accused of being more aikijutsu than aikido. As for the school in the link...my opinion is that it's much closer to the former than a group that's interested in teaching you to defend yourself with technique. They stress the inclusive, non-competitive, peace through any means nature of the school. That's great... if that's what you're after. For me, I just wouldn't fit in there but I also have a tendency to flavor my aikido with a bit of the kempo that I've studied and some of the Marine Corps H2H that I learned in service.


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## K-man (Mar 1, 2010)

Hobberty said:


> Firstly:
> Why do I see so many posts about "It doesn't work, etc"? Is it good self defense in comparison to kenpo, karate, etc.
> Secondly:
> Is this a good Aikido Place?
> ...


I am only in my 4th year of aikido so I have only a little experience. What I have found is that it is a fantastic MA to enhance your understanding of other martial arts such as the Goju karate that is my mainstay. In karate all the locks and throws of aikido are contained in our kata, but rarely trained as most instructors have never seen the techniques or if they have they still do not know how to make them work. On the other hand most of the aikido that I have seen doesn't work also because we all like to resort to strength and in aikido strength is counter productive. Theletch mentioned kicking and punching. In the aikido I practise we don't actually train the kicks or punches but we do take note of where and when it would be appropriate to use them. A sharp punch to the floating rib certainly takes you opponent's mind away from the lock you might be struggling to apply. Like any MA there are good schools and there are not so good schools just as there are good teachers and those who should have stayed home. The school that you have listed offers free instruction for a week. Go and check it out. You have nothing to lose and it may be just up your alley. BTW, the video clip. Great receiving by the ukes but the actual aikido may or may not be working. I would be going along and testing their technique against resistance. I'm not talking about one of the lower grades, but respectfully ask the teacher or one of the senior students if they would let you try to resist the technique. If I'm trying as hard as I can to resist and they still perform their technique, fantastic, where do I sign. If they struggle and say, oh we don't hold that strong, sorry, not good enough. I test my aikido on my karate students. Occassionally they can stop me and they love that. Most times the aikido principles I use will win easily over strength. The times my techniques fail are the times I resort to strength. :asian:


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## amir (Mar 1, 2010)

1.
Depends on who your teacher is. Some teachers will teach you Aikido that would be great if you ever need it for S.D.  others teaching lacks :-/
Wish I could give you a simple way of descipering which is which, but, it would take an expert to make a real distinction. 

Being able to do a technique against resistance is not good enough. I would likely fail against a total starter, for fear of hurting him. Thus, once he learns some Ukemi (to receive techniques safely and fall to the ground safely), I would suddenly succeed - even if he were to try harder.  Often the correct solution to resistance is to flow over it and change the technique, rather then force it - does this pass?
But, in any case, being able to do a technique against resistance in a static situation, is only minor issue in fighting.  There are many more important things, and fighting is only a small part of S.D.


Amir


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## K-man (Mar 1, 2010)

amir said:


> Being able to do a technique against resistance is not good enough. I would likely fail against a total starter, for fear of hurting him. Thus, once he learns some Ukemi (to receive techniques safely and fall to the ground safely), I would suddenly succeed - even if he were to try harder.  Often the correct solution to resistance is to flow over it and change the technique, rather then force it - does this pass?
> But, in any case, being able to do a technique against resistance in a static situation, is only minor issue in fighting.  There are many more important things, and fighting is only a small part of S.D.


That's fair enough but I would like to see someone able to escape from a double hand wrist hold or perform a static kotegaeshi. Even to escape some of the neck locks. I have seen many high ranking aikidoka that cannot do simple things and, because aikido is a long term commitment, I wouldn't want to train with an ineffective teacher for years before realising that I had wasted my time. I agree that resistance is hardly anything in fighting, but is everything when it comes to being able to bypass another's strength to test your technique.


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## amir (Mar 3, 2010)

K-man said:


> That's fair enough but I would like to see someone able to escape from a double hand wrist hold or perform a static kotegaeshi. Even to escape some of the neck locks. I have seen many high ranking aikidoka that cannot do simple things and, because aikido is a long term commitment, I wouldn't want to train with an ineffective teacher for years before realising that I had wasted my time. I agree that resistance is hardly anything in fighting, but is everything when it comes to being able to bypass another's strength to test your technique.




I did not claim that being able to handle resistance is not required for fighting, I did imply the better Aikido solution for it is to feel the resistance before it reaches full strength and adapt the technique (or change it), so the others action in resistance will assist you, rather then trying to force the technique against direct force.  
The latter should be possible too, in most cases, but is the less preferable solution.

Of-course, if the teacher is unable to even do (or teach) the very basic stuff - he is not good to teach you even the fighting aspects of S.D. And I agree about the examples of: the double hand wrist hold or perform a static kotegaeshi you mentioned. Not so sure about escape from a neck lock - unless you have something specific in mind - if the lock is good and done by someone practiced, the neck will break).


Amir


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2010)

amir said:


> I did not claim that being able to handle resistance is not required for fighting, I did imply the better Aikido solution for it is to feel the resistance before it reaches full strength and adapt the technique (or change it), so the others action in resistance will assist you, rather then trying to force the technique against direct force.
> The latter should be possible too, in most cases, but is the less preferable solution.
> 
> Of-course, if the teacher is unable to even do (or teach) the very basic stuff - he is not good to teach you even the fighting aspects of S.D. And I agree about the examples of: the double hand wrist hold or perform a static kotegaeshi you mentioned. Not so sure about escape from a neck lock - unless you have something specific in mind - if the lock is good and done by someone practiced, the neck will break).
> ...


Agree totally.  With the neck locks, I referring to holding firmly, not applying the last force to cause total destruction. Just to prove they can escape from a firm grip.


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## amir (Mar 4, 2010)

K-man said:


> Agree totally.  With the neck locks, I referring to holding firmly, not applying the last force to cause total destruction. Just to prove they can escape from a firm grip.



About escape from locks - my Sensei always likes to explain there is no possibility to escape a knife after it penetrated, similarly, once a lock is fully on, unless the person holding the lock has no idea - it will be very difficult to escape and it requires a much higher level of skill then the lock holder.

Amir


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## Yari (Mar 4, 2010)

K-man said:


> ....... I agree that resistance is hardly anything in fighting, ......



Would you mind elaborating on this. I would beg to differ, since it really depends on the "fight". I'm thinking that maybe your commenting on a "street -fight", but there are many oth kinds of "fights", or physical confrontations.

/Yari


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2010)

Yari said:


> Would you mind elaborating on this. I would beg to differ, since it really depends on the "fight". I'm thinking that maybe your commenting on a "street -fight", but there are many oth kinds of "fights", or physical confrontations./Yari


Much of my aikido training is performed with my opponent holding or resisting as hard as he is physically able. This is to make me relax about being held because in the overall picture the hold is irrelevant. If you like, it is a distraction.  If I allow my mind to go to the hold I will be contained.  If, on the other hand, I ignore the hold totally and attack his centre not only will I escape the hold but I can perform whatever other technique I might find appropriate.
In a real life scenario I am not going to allow someone to get a firm hold like I train. It really is a worst case scenario, but seeing I know I cannot be held it doesn't matter.  In a real fight, and I hope I don't have to go there, my response will be 90% karate, but the softness of my aikido training has taken my karate to a new level.


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## Yari (Mar 4, 2010)

K-man said:


> .....In a real life scenario I am not going to allow someone to get a firm hold like I train. It really is a worst case scenario, but seeing I know I cannot be held it doesn't matter. In a real fight, and I hope I don't have to go there, my response will be 90% karate, but the softness of my aikido training has taken my karate to a new level.


 
I think your thinking of a fight that has to start before the "grab". But really a "fight" can start with the grab going from soft to hard, or even starting at hard. 

My experience is that teaching SD for institutions (SP?), some people start off with a person holding them (and that is allowed), and then an escalation happens an the grab tightens. 

I do agree that if somebody steps up in front of you and try to grab, we are talking a different ball-game. But there are probably more people in there daily work that "allow" loose hand contact, which could/would escalte. Now you might advocate that they shouldn't let this happen. But I would say it's normal for there line of work.

Sorry for carring a bit off topic. but got a bit triggered (postivil) on the part I first quoted, and got quorious(sp?) about not resitence part in fighting.

Best Regards
Yari


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2010)

Yari said:


> I think your thinking of a fight that has to start before the "grab". But really a "fight" can start with the grab going from soft to hard, or even starting at hard.
> 
> My experience is that teaching SD for institutions (SP?), some people start off with a person holding them (and that is allowed), and then an escalation happens an the grab tightens.
> 
> I do agree that if somebody steps up in front of you and try to grab, we are talking a different ball-game. But there are probably more people in there daily work that "allow" loose hand contact, which could/would escalte. Now you might advocate that they shouldn't let this happen. But I would say it's normal for there line of work.


That is my worst case scenario, and because I train against full strength holds every aikido training session I know that very few people will be capable of holding me if I choose not to comply.  The other advantage is, if they are holding me I know where there hands are. That has just reduced their arsenal of offensive techniques by over 50%.


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## gocrywolf (Sep 8, 2010)

When used as a base for my other arts like my kung fu or Chinese boxing it acts as an incredible change of tempo from my striking game because I dont use it until Im set to end a fight with it. The form also functions as a very reliable fall back for bouts that last for long times. After Im hurting and tiered of striking I fall back into my Aikido and use tech over my opponents dwindling strength because my Aikido doesnt require very much from me but a state of mind. And, its a good clean way to end battles against less skilled fighters without having to seriously hurt them to do it. No broken noses or marks for police to trace back to me, just a quick drop for a street punk with a knife and then I can get away. Ive used it to handle knife fighters and thugs in real life situations.
    Sometimes I feel like fighters today have become so caught up in hard application they forget that martial arts is not just physical. MA is meant to change the way you think about life and if there is a large learning curve in Aikido then I attribute it to the form forcing you to think differently the way any form should. 
  In the end the effectiveness of any art is based on your ability to apply it. Dont blame the difficulty of the form. As a matter of fact dont blame anything just make the best of your art.
---------------------------------------------
respectfully wolf
    The body is the conduit of the minds will and the hearts truth
  You want to change your body come back to fight me in a month, you want to change the way you think Ill see you in a few minutes.


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## Manny (Sep 9, 2010)

I am a tae kwon guy with a little experience in aikido, very little maybe not more than a couple of moths back in 1997-98. The Martial Art of Tae kwon Do has a lot of kicking and punching/hand techs for self defense aplications AND have some locks,trows and pins that are part of AIKIDO. The other MA I have studied for more than a year is Kenpo Karate and even this is a striking MA it has a few aikido moves.

A stricking art is easier to understand and study than a grappling/trowing martial art like Aikido. Aikido is more complex, much more time is required for the student to understand and perform at a good level.

Is akido good for self defense pourposes? YES like anyother MA, the key is in the individual who practices the martial art., in other words _is the singer... not the song_ ...

It's my understanding aikido needs more time and dedication than other striking MA.

Manny


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