# Why does karate have better kicks than hands?



## qianfeng (Feb 3, 2015)

From what i seen on the internet (srry if im wrong) but it seems karate has better kicks then handwork which some seem to consider bad. Why is this? I thought karate was based on southern Kung fu styles like white crane (goju-ryu) and reverent tiger fist (Uehci ryu) which are known for their handwork.


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## drop bear (Feb 3, 2015)

Lack of face punching in some styles.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

I guess it would depend on the Karate in question. We have better hands than feet.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2015)

I agree with Buka on this it depends on what system and who you study with.  My instructor had one heck of a front kick but used his hands almost exclusively


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## Tez3 (Feb 3, 2015)

As has been said...depends on style, our is good with punches and kicks as well as other techniques...and we are full  contact so plenty of practice with all of it.
Watching videos is not the best way to judge any martial art or anything else to be honest. Recently there was a big problem with people 'teaching' ballet online and little girls were 'learning' to go en pointe, a very dangerous thing for young feet and something that should be taught by a qualified professional teacher so you see all sorts of junk gets put up purporting to be either the 'real thing' or' the best', very rarely is anything any good.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> From what i seen on the internet (srry if im wrong) but it seems karate has better kicks then handwork which some seem to consider bad. Why is this? I thought karate was based on southern Kung fu styles like white crane (goju-ryu) and reverent tiger fist (Uehci ryu) which are known for their handwork.


First off, if you are getting your information mostly from the internet ["From what i seen on the internet..."] I would seriously question your source/s. Though the internet can be a source of a lot of information much of the information on the internet is misinformation. 

Though it was many years ago the karate I trained was very strong on handwork, (punching, grabbing, and locking) lots of throws and takedowns as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 3, 2015)

As others have pointed out, your premise is flawed. Some karateka are good with their hands, some are good with kicks, some are good with both ... and some are crappy with both. I wouldn't say that karate as a whole favors one over the other, although individual karate styles or practitioners might.

From a Western point of view, I can see one factor which might lead some casual observers to make the mistake of thinking karate was better for kicks. We have, in Western boxing, a native, highly advanced system of punching which is widely practiced from casual practitioners up to world-class professionals. We don't have such a widespread tradition of kicking in the West. (There's Savate, but it's not so widespread and it comes from Chinese origins anyway.)  As a result, some Western observers might be impressed on a gee-whiz level with karate kicking, but not so much with karate punching.


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## Mephisto (Feb 3, 2015)

For any kind of "better than" discussion you have to frame your comparison. Better at what and against who? Even than you're on rocky territory. IMO boxing sets the bar for punching it's an easy go to comparison. Is karate punching as developed as in boxing? Does that mean that karates kicks are automatically "better"? This is a tough comparison and given the breadth and variety of karate systems you're not likely to find one concise answer.


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## drop bear (Feb 3, 2015)

Buka said:


> I guess it would depend on the Karate in question. We have better hands than feet.



I was Thinking of kuyokoshin. Who are in general pretty terrible boxers. And who swear loudly and often at the concept of face punching.

(ours do anyway)


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 3, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> From what i seen on the internet (srry if im wrong) but it seems karate has better kicks then handwork which some seem to consider bad. Why is this? I thought karate was based on southern Kung fu styles like white crane (goju-ryu) and reverent tiger fist (Uehci ryu) which are known for their handwork.



It really depends on the style and the way its taught. There are many different styles of Karate and many different teaching methods. In the main dojo that I trained at there was an equal emphasis on kicks and hand techniques. As for those who consider it bad about a style lacking in handwork, that depends on what a person is looking for in the martial arts. Some people are looking for more hand techniques and styles that emphasize such and to find such a style would require some in depth research.


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## Buka (Feb 3, 2015)

In the real world the majority of punches are to the face. I mean, think of every fight you've ever seen since you were a kid, how many body punches have you seen by people who have never trained?

I live in New England. Right now there's about four feet of snow and it's everywhere. It's hard enough to punch while on a slippery surface, never mind throwing a kick. And to anyone who thinks that wouldn't affect their kicking....


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2015)

Flying side kick!!!!
Forget kicking someone off a horse, try kicking them off a snow drift...


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## qianfeng (Feb 4, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As others have pointed out, your premise is flawed. Some karateka are good with their hands, some are good with kicks, some are good with both ... and some are crappy with both. I wouldn't say that karate as a whole favors one over the other, although individual karate styles or practitioners might.
> 
> From a Western point of view, I can see one factor which might lead some casual observers to make the mistake of thinking karate was better for kicks. We have, in Western boxing, a native, highly advanced system of punching which is widely practiced from casual practitioners up to world-class professionals. We don't have such a widespread tradition of kicking in the West. (There's Savate, but it's not so widespread and it comes from Chinese origins anyway.)  As a result, some Western observers might be impressed on a gee-whiz level with karate kicking, but not so much with karate punching.



I wasn't comparing it to boxers i was comparing to southern Chinese styles like Hu Zun Quan and Bai He Quan. It was jst what seems like i was wrong.


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## drop bear (Feb 4, 2015)

Buka said:


> In the real world the majority of punches are to the face. I mean, think of every fight you've ever seen since you were a kid, how many body punches have you seen by people who have never trained?
> 
> I live in New England. Right now there's about four feet of snow and it's everywhere. It's hard enough to punch while on a slippery surface, never mind throwing a kick. And to anyone who thinks that wouldn't affect their kicking....



It would completely change the system you use. You might even kick more like the savate guys do because you have to hang off something.


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## Zero (Feb 12, 2015)

qianfeng said:


> From what i seen on the internet (srry if im wrong) but it seems karate has better kicks then handwork which some seem to consider bad. Why is this? I thought karate was based on southern Kung fu styles like white crane (goju-ryu) and reverent tiger fist (Uehci ryu) which are known for their handwork.



At least two of the early renowned karate masters had suffered severed hands through being wounded while fighting samurai in the Japanese wars of oppression on Okinawa. They practiced therefore only with their feet and some with their elbows.  Many of their disciples then copied their style in wrote.  The results of this can now be clearly seen on YouTube.

In contrast, there are no documented instances of Chinese handless sifu.


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## Hanzou (Feb 12, 2015)

Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.

Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.


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## K-man (Feb 12, 2015)

Zero said:


> At least two of the early renowned karate masters had suffered severed hands through being wounded while fighting samurai in the Japanese wars of oppression on Okinawa. They practiced therefore only with their feet and some with their elbows.  Many of their disciples then copied their style in wrote.  The results of this can now be clearly seen on YouTube.
> 
> In contrast, there are no documented instances of Chinese handless sifu.


Seeing that the Samurai were not around when karate began I am wondering who might be the two renown masters who lost their hands. It is news to me.


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## K-man (Feb 12, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.


Karateka punch like boxers because that is how we train. The punching you are describing is once again the kihon, something you seem to have difficulty comprehending and obviously never progressed beyond in your karate training. You know nothing of advanced karate techniques.


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Seeing that the Samurai were not around when karate began I am wondering who might be the two renown masters who lost their hands. It is news to me.


Crickey K-Man, do I have to put smileys on everything for you?


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> Crickey K-Man, do I have to put smileys on everything for you?



It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.



I have to agree with K-man here, you clearly have not seen much karate hand-techs - or maybe being charitable, unfortunately, you were only exposed to very junior practitioners or a very sub-par club?

We were working punches on the makiwara at my goju club from quite junior level onwards. We had an outside space behind the club so were lucky to have a great makiwara set up in the ground.  Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights.  Again, we also worked on the light and heavy bags inside the club from white belt/day-one gloved up or gloveless and very much like a boxer.

When we spar or compete the upper body/hand style is very much like a boxer, with gloves you're not able to execute blade hand techs and sparing without gloves you don't want to be mixing it with someone who is using heavy ridge / blade hand techs as these can result in a broken nose and hurt far more on the clavicle or neck than a closed fist/punch (quite simply because the energy is being transferred into a narrower point of contact).  I am not saying these are "secret/deadly, not to be used techs" (which I can't stand people referring to or using as an excuse) or that they are any more effective than a punch, it's just the result is patently different and from personal experience I prefer to ride a hard punch to the shoulder any day over a ridge hand strike.

I fail to follow you where you say karate hand techs have heavy draw backs on actual (I take that to mean "real life" and possibly also tournament) application.  As noted above, the punches are quite similar to a boxer's, aside from contact points and in some styles, wrist alignment.

The blade hand strikes are very powerful and damaging and have their place for those experienced in employing them or that choose to use these instead of a punch.  heel of palm strikes to certain targets are also very effective and can rock your boat and put you on your **** just as much (or almost as much) as an upper cut.

Tell us what the specific techs are that you feel are sub-par for actual application and then maybe we can have a real discussion on this.


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.



I know Tez3, I know...I had hoped when saying things that patently don't fit with historical records or the genealogy of styles that it would be clearly nothing more than my failed attempts at humour - but I guess if someone was making jokes about Muay Thai I would have no idea...so you are right.

My Humour-Fu without the smileys suxxx!!!
Happy Valentines for tomorrow, I hope you get those roses and box of chocs I sent your way!


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## Buka (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> I have to agree with K-man here, you clearly have not seen much karate hand-techs - or maybe being charitable, unfortunately, you were only exposed to very junior practitioners or a very sub-par club?
> 
> We were working punches on the makiwara at my goju club from quite junior level onwards. We had an outside space behind the club so were lucky to have a great makiwara set up in the ground.  Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights.  Again, we also worked on the light and heavy bags inside the club from white belt/day-one gloved up or gloveless and very much like a boxer.
> 
> ...


_
" Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights_."

No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.


My grins can be quite evil.


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Buka said:


> _" Our punches are very similar to that of a boxer but for gloveless competition, such as when we compete in kyokoshin or street application we use the top two knuckles as the striking point only for most jabs and straights_."
> 
> No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.



In principle I agree, it's just from personal experience in executing punch strikes like a hook (with either horizontal or vertical fist) to the head, in honesty I am more connecting with the majority of my knuckles and I am not connecting with a wrist alignment as often seen in goju ryu punches. 

For body and torso rips/hooks I can definitely get the major two knuckles worked into the ribs etc but for head strikes this alignment does not work for me so well...throw some yourself next time training, or maybe you can answer off the bat now, and let me know your take on this and how your mechanics work?  Would be keen to know.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> I know Tez3, I know...I had hoped when saying things that patently don't fit with historical records or the genealogy of styles that it would be clearly nothing more than my failed attempts at humour - but I guess if someone was making jokes about Muay Thai I would have no idea...so you are right.
> 
> My Humour-Fu without the smileys suxxx!!!
> Happy Valentines for tomorrow, I hope you get those roses and box of chocs I sent your way!



Ahh, you are a sweetie! XX


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It helps if you do, we have no way of knowing how you mean something if you don't.


Hey, now hold it y'all, I just seen you didn't put no smileys on your Gurkha joke over in that other post??


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Smileys


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hey, now hold it y'all, I just seen you didn't put no smileys on your Gurkha joke over in that other post??




Ah but that's not a joke, it's true!


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## Zero (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Ah but that's not a joke, it's true!


True!


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## Buka (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> In principle I agree, it's just from personal experience in executing punch strikes like a hook (with either horizontal or vertical fist) to the head, in honesty I am more connecting with the majority of my knuckles and I am not connecting with a wrist alignment as often seen in goju ryu punches.
> 
> For body and torso rips/hooks I can definitely get the major two knuckles worked into the ribs etc but for head strikes this alignment does not work for me so well...throw some yourself next time training, or maybe you can answer off the bat now, and let me know your take on this and how your mechanics work?  Would be keen to know.



For me, it's the opposite! For body shots I tend to hit with the majority of my knuckles, for hooks to the head, either vertical or horizontal, I'm pretty good at focusing the punch with the front two knuckles. When I first started boxing (72) and hooked to the head, we always had our hands wrapped properly and, of course, wore gloves. But when I was forced to throw a hook to the head outside, with no gloves and no wraps.....man, I really hurt my hand. Didn't break it, but damn near. It was then I used what I was being taught in Martial Arts - front two knuckles - in the boxing gym with all gloved hooks. Slowed me down some, but in a few years it became natural.

I have really skinny wrists, like a little girl, so I have to pay attention to wrist alignment. That became natural, too, after about a jillion of them.

My mechanics on the hook to the head work well, at least for me. Throwing the weight onto my back foot while hooking (like a swinging gate, the back side being the hinges) aligns my knuckles and wrist so that I haven't hurt anything with that particular punch in longer than I can remember. I like a vertical fist when head hooking with someone of my height or shorter, I tend to go with a horizontal fist on head hooking with a taller opponent. (which really aligns my knuckles and wrist the way I want them) I find it so much easier to land a hook to a taller person.

I also like one thing about the winter (and one thing only!) I get cold so easy I'm always wearing gloves. I know it's purely psychological, but I love hooking with gloves on. We all have our quirks - I try taking advantage of mine.


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## K-man (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> Crickey K-Man, do I have to put smileys on everything for you?


Yep! I've been so pissed off by a few people over the past six months, I've misplaced my sense of humour. 

That, and of course your omission of the emoticon.

Not to mention the lack of choice with emoticons. 

But, in answer to your question ... yes please!


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Yep! I've been so pissed off by a few people over the past six months, I've misplaced my sense of humour.
> 
> That, and of course your omission of the emoticon.
> 
> ...



I still wish we had the old emoticons back, they were more appropriate for a martial arts site.


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## K-man (Feb 13, 2015)

Buka said:


> No other part of the hand should ever be used in a punch. Any punch. I'm not talking about other hand techniques, just punching.


This is why Hanzou is so far off track and why it always amuses me when people call boxers 'specialist punchers'. Boxers punch with wraps and gloves and pretty much use the one punching surface. They are only 'specialist punchers' in that punching is what they do.

In karate we have two punching platforms. The first is incorporating the first two knuckles as you describe and the second is using the last three knuckles. This one is more interesting as it enables a punch where you might have a broken forefinger. Then there are multiple punches featuring different knuckles. On top of this there are different alignments for different targets.

What you see in karate kihon is way, way different to the technique of punching we would use in a real fight.


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## Hanzou (Feb 13, 2015)

K-man said:


> Karateka punch like boxers because that is how we train. The punching you are describing is once again the kihon, something you seem to have difficulty comprehending and obviously never progressed beyond in your karate training. You know nothing of advanced karate techniques.




Advanced karate techniques like this;






The real fun starts at 3:55.






And starts here at 2:42


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

I love the liver shots


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## Hanzou (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I love the liver shots



Yeah, Kyokushin looks great.....

Because they fight like kick boxers.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, Kyokushin looks great.....
> 
> Because they fight like kick boxers.




Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

Kickboxing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Columbia Kickboxing Contact


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## Hanzou (Feb 13, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?



Kickboxing came from a combination of karate and muay thai.

I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.


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## Hanzou (Feb 13, 2015)

Zero said:


> Tell us what the specific techs are that you feel are sub-par for actual application and then maybe we can have a real discussion on this.



Pretty much the entire methodology. If you go from Karate to western boxing, it becomes painfully obvious that karate is simply an archaic method in a variety of aspects. I'm sure people don't want to hear that, and may be quite upset, but its simply the truth. Boxing develops a better all around tool set for hands than karate does. Better defenses, better timing, better combinations, etc.

This shouldn't be surprising when we consider that Boxing is a constantly evolving sport and most karate dojos adhere to traditions established almost (or even over) a century ago.

That said, Karate is better at teaching kicks than boxing. So there you go.


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## KydeX (Feb 13, 2015)

That's only logical. Boxing is a specialist style. It focuses on strikes only, and mostly to the head. Of course it will beat Karate in a punching contest. This is true for all arts. The more you add in to your curriculum, the less skill you will have in each discipline.

It's the old "jack of all trades, master of none" saying.


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## Tez3 (Feb 13, 2015)

KydeX said:


> That's only logical. Boxing is a specialist style. It focuses on strikes only, and mostly to the head. Of course it will beat Karate in a punching contest. This is true for all arts. The more you add in to your curriculum, the less skill you will have in each discipline.
> 
> It's the old "jack of all trades, master of none" saying.


It depends on the fighter not the style, to say boxing will beat karate means absolutely nothing. It's just a generalisation, you can't make it true by saying it lol.


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## jks9199 (Feb 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Kickboxing came from a combination of karate and muay thai.
> 
> I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.


No.

Simply no.

Kickboxing events had numerous origins.  In the US, they evolved as a way to do full contact martial arts competitions.  Sure, Muay Thai was out there.  So was shootboxing.  And lots of other things.  The American Bando Association hosts one of the longest running continuous amateur kickboxing events.  The rules have developed and adapted over the years, in part due to insurance and sanctioning/licensing/permitting requirements.  Some of the early kickboxers combined boxing experience with martial arts.  Others were, for lack of a better word, "true" martial artists.


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## Buka (Feb 13, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Pretty much the entire methodology. If you go from Karate to western boxing, it becomes painfully obvious that karate is simply an archaic method in a variety of aspects. I'm sure people don't want to hear that, and may be quite upset, but its simply the truth. Boxing develops a better all around tool set for hands than karate does. Better defenses, better timing, better combinations, etc.
> 
> This shouldn't be surprising when we consider that Boxing is a constantly evolving sport and most karate dojos adhere to traditions established almost (or even over) a century ago.
> 
> That said, Karate is better at teaching kicks than boxing. So there you go.



So the debate is now between boxing and Karate as to which has the better hand techniques? And this would be in the context of what, exactly? In a boxing match? In a Karate match? In a kick boxing ring? Or are we talking about a fight between a boxer and a Karate man? Or perhaps, you know, a street fight. Would that be the criteria to judge?

So if someone studied Karate in one particular school, they would know the answer to those questions, yes? Or maybe somebody who boxed for a while? Or would it be the eye test? Or maybe somebody who fought against a boxer, or fought against a Karate man. Or somebody who fought against both? Or somebody who trained with both?

Boxing is a specialized sport/fighting system. Actually, the most specialized of all sport/fighting systems. With four basic strikes, the jab, the cross, the hook and the uppercut, and slight variations of shovel hooks, overhands etc. 

But I guess the debate is about the punching as it stands alone. Let's just take all the other aspects of Karate and throw them out. Which would be equal to limiting boxing to say, the jab, the uppercut, the bob and the weave.

But I suppose if you're experienced in both, you would have the answer. But, you ain't. Or are you?


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## Hanzou (Feb 14, 2015)

Buka said:


> So the debate is now between boxing and Karate as to which has the better hand techniques? And this would be in the context of what, exactly? In a boxing match? In a Karate match? In a kick boxing ring? Or are we talking about a fight between a boxer and a Karate man? Or perhaps, you know, a street fight. Would that be the criteria to judge?
> 
> So if someone studied Karate in one particular school, they would know the answer to those questions, yes? Or maybe somebody who boxed for a while? Or would it be the eye test? Or maybe somebody who fought against a boxer, or fought against a Karate man. Or somebody who fought against both? Or somebody who trained with both?
> 
> ...




Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.

If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2015)

We have several karateka in our club who are chosen for their regimental boxing teams on the sole basis of their karate, they do very well against boxers. My instructor has had several bare knuckle boxing bouts and as a Shotokan karateka has also done very well. I would suggest karate people who haven't done well against boxers have _a._ not been taught well _b._ not got the stomach for a fight or _c_. were either too inexperienced or met a really good boxer who would also beat other boxers, really good fighters who excel in their style will always do well against anyone else. You cannot compare a really good fighter with other fighters not even when they are in the same style. Mohammed Ali for example  could beat most if not all boxers at his weight so being a karateka and beaten by him wouldn't mean karate was rubbish, it means he's a extraordinary fighter. 

All this style versus style stuff proves absolutely nothing. It's like a kid's game of Godzilla v King Kong, you can speculate endlessly but it gets you  nowhere. Of course if your agenda is to constantly rubbish another style then I guess you will carry on playing just to point out the flaws you think that style has. It maybe however the flaws are in the person doing the rubbishing, perhaps he was just never very good despite all the teaching, in that style he now rubbishes. They do say a bad workman blames his tools.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2015)

Have seen a lot of terrible boxers & muay thai fighters as well as terrible karate fighters. Seen some awesome as well. Seen a lot of terrible wrestlers and other ground fighters as well of some awesome as well. Seen a lot of terrible stick fighters and some awesome ones as well. Seen a lot of terrible carpenters and some awesome ones also. Seen a lot of terrible auto mechanics and some awesome ones as well. Could go on with this...!!!
It is the person, how much they practice, to what level they can apply what they have learned and how much do they want it. There are a lot of what I consider horrible fighters where their fundamentals are concerned however, their ability to over come and overwhelm is excellent. There is far more to being a good fighter than What they train in.


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## Hanzou (Feb 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> /snip



LoL! No one is "rubbishing" karate. I'm simply pointing out its flaws and shortcomings. No art is perfect.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.
> 
> If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.


That is because you like to fight at boxing range. I don't let people be where boxers like to be, and neither do boxers, now that I think about it.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> LoL! No one is "rubbishing" karate. I'm simply pointing out its flaws and shortcomings. No art is perfect.


six year olds can get black belts; so, you are only pointing out your own shortcomings.


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.
> 
> If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.


So...  Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training?  What rules?  Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?

Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring.  And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on.  But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling...  I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 14, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> So...  Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training?  What rules?  Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?
> 
> Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring.  And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on.  But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling...  I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...


You see they spoon feed Karate to you, because there is so much you can do; however, they hand boxing to you on a platter, and you can't help but become conditioned to easily defeat people that are still sucking on a spoon.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> So...  Did you get eaten alive because your training failed you, or you failed your training?  What rules?  Or did you fight Mike Tyson, with no children available, since you were eaten alive?
> 
> Boxing has very solid techniques and principles for the boxing ring.  And a good coach will get a fighter used to getting hit and keeping on.  But modern boxing is built around 4 techniques, and a rule set that limits targets, limits the striking surface, eliminates any real grappling...  I'm most certainly not saying not to train in boxing, but categorically dismissing karate is a little excessive...



karate punching is just not as comprehensive tactically. And focusing on the punches is the wrong place to look.


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## Buka (Feb 14, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.
> 
> If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.



I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have  such a curiosity and fascination with these things.


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## drop bear (Feb 14, 2015)

The thing is of course that you can do karate and also do boxing and it is going to improve your karate hand skills. 





Buka said:


> I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have  such a curiosity and fascination with these things.



just interested karate guys should be able to box shouldn't they? I mean even if you relax the rules and let them throw ninja chops and distracting backfists. I don't care so long as you are hitting with that glove. They should be able to do rounds and both should not be too out of there depth.


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## Buka (Feb 15, 2015)

drop bear said:


> The thing is of course that you can do karate and also do boxing and it is going to improve your karate hand skills.
> 
> just interested karate guys should be able to box shouldn't they? I mean even if you relax the rules and let them throw ninja chops and distracting backfists. I don't care so long as you are hitting with that glove. They should be able to do rounds and both should not be too out of there depth.



Not sure if this is what you meant, but you really can't box unless you're trained to box- and then actually box....a lot.


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## Hanzou (Feb 15, 2015)

Buka said:


> I was aware of your years spent in Shotokan, and obviously of your Bjj training. I wasn't aware of your training in boxing or MMA. (good for you, brother) As for being eaten alive by a boxer, been there myself back in the day. How did that come about? Were you boxing, or sparring with him and playing his game? I don't ask to come back with any thoughts, I just have  such a curiosity and fascination with these things.



We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.

I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.

So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.


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## Danny T (Feb 15, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.
> 
> I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.
> 
> So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.



Reminds me of a couple of competitions we were in a few years back. Our youth program is shotokan. We have our intermediate level and advance level spar striking with boxing gloves and open striking (no groin, no back of the head, no kidney shots, no kicks to the knees). They also spar throws, takedowns, and groundwork.

Anyway took several to a few Karate sparring competitions; point and continuous sparring. Placed all in Black Belt divisions based on age and we walked away with 1 & 2nd places across the board. Lost several points due to punches to the face. (which we do train, our youth did what they trained). Point is karate can be an excellent training method when trained as such. Some do some don't. Because there are some who don't that doesn't make karate a poor method. It just means their training is poor.


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## Buka (Feb 15, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> We were sparring after hours at my former dojo. He was visiting from somewhere else, and wanted to spar against me. I was one of the best fighters in my class, which is why he chose me. Fortunately, there wasn't anyone around to witness my beatdown, it might have gotten ugly if that were the case.
> 
> I didn't intend to play his game, but it got to the point where all I could do were leg kicks to keep him from coming in and punching me in the face, so I had to adjust to a more boxer-lite stance and hand positioning to compensate. My hand techniques were simply no match for his defenses, and counter punching. In the end, I did bruise his legs pretty good, but my entire upper body, including my face was hurting, and I had gotten knocked down a couple of times from a few well placed blows.
> 
> So yeah, not a good experience, and a big blow to my confidence. I quit karate shortly afterwards and looked into other styles, including boxing and MMA before finally settling in Bjj.



I know how that sucked, but on the bright side it made you a more experienced/better fighter in the long run. Always gotta' look at the long run.

Might have turned out the same way if you were straight Jits back then and you were only using the hand techniques you train in Jits, because, again, it's playing his game.

And I know what some Karate guys might be thinking, "I'd sweep him". That's not always as easy as it sounds because the timing is different. Not yours, his. But if you box for a while, and learn to disguise that sweep with the hip/shoulder motion and footwork of boxing, it works really well. Especially because boxers react differently to in-coming punches than us karate men tend to. But there is nothing a boxer hates more, or messes him up more, than sweeping his feet. Other than taking him down and mounting. Which is always fun. 

Again, I love boxing. But I like sparring boxers even more. But....they tend to have no sense of humor....which is even more fun. 

Hanzou, how would you like to spar that guy again now, knowing what you now know and having the skill set you have now? Wouldn't that be fun?


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2015)

Buka said:


> Not sure if this is what you meant, but you really can't box unless you're trained to box- and then actually box....a lot.



you can put on gloves and punch. Nothing stopping a karate guy doing that being good at it or improving because of it.

The reason the karate guy may not do well is because the boxer has better hands. Simple as that. And that is the same for any martial art not just karate. 

there is no reason a bjjer could not jump in with a boxer and bjj with 16 ounce gloves on. And if the bjjer gets face punched. It is still because the boxer has better hands.

It iis not such a specialized activity. That other styles cant do it. Especially if you are willing to relax the rules a bit.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you can put on gloves and punch. Nothing stopping a karate guy doing that being good at it or improving because of it.
> 
> The reason the karate guy may not do well is because the boxer has better hands. Simple as that. And that is the same for any martial art not just karate.
> 
> ...


While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well actually Buka I am. I'm a black belt in Shotokan, and I trained in boxing for a time, and I've done MMA. One of the reasons I left karate was because I got eaten alive by a boxer.
> 
> If the goal is to find the most effective hand techniques in MA, Boxing (or styles that utilize boxing) is where you go. Karate certainly has its benefits, and I would never discourage someone looking to do Karate. However if they asked me where they should go to learn how best to defend themselves standing up, I would tell them Boxing every time.


Interesting.  Were you "eaten alive" in a freestyle environment where you were able to kick, sweep, lock-up and takedown/submit or were you simply constrained to a fist vs fist striking sparring session against the boxer? 
And what was the level of the boxer compared to yourself, you say you are bb Shotokan but what competition level was the boxer?
If you could answer the above it would be illuminating.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We have several karateka in our club who are chosen for their regimental boxing teams on the sole basis of their karate, they do very well against boxers. My instructor has had several bare knuckle boxing bouts and as a Shotokan karateka has also done very well. I would suggest karate people who haven't done well against boxers have _a._ not been taught well _b._ not got the stomach for a fight or _c_. were either too inexperienced or met a really good boxer who would also beat other boxers, really good fighters who excel in their style will always do well against anyone else. You cannot compare a really good fighter with other fighters not even when they are in the same style. Mohammed Ali for example  could beat most if not all boxers at his weight so being a karateka and beaten by him wouldn't mean karate was rubbish, it means he's a extraordinary fighter.
> 
> All this style versus style stuff proves absolutely nothing. It's like a kid's game of Godzilla v King Kong, you can speculate endlessly but it gets you  nowhere. Of course if your agenda is to constantly rubbish another style then I guess you will carry on playing just to point out the flaws you think that style has. It maybe however the flaws are in the person doing the rubbishing, perhaps he was just never very good despite all the teaching, in that style he now rubbishes. They do say a bad workman blames his tools.



Too true.  There are karateka that are crap boxers, there are karateka that are crap kickers and would get owned by a muay thai guy, kyokoshinka or TKD'er.  Then there are awesome karateka that are highly trained and have had the benefit of great trainers and have gone on with those karate skills to win MMA titles against boxers, wrestlers, grapplers, etc and win numerous K1 grand prix against muay thai fighters, kick boxers, etc.

So much is down to the individual - and as Buka has also said, what the environment is.  If you are in a ring and it is simply fist vs fist, then, yes, I would 9 out of 10 times go for the highly skilled/experienced boxer over a highly skilled/experienced fighter of any other discipline. Further, boxing strikes are very good for many self defence scenarios also.  But when you get away from a highly specialised sport environment to just have hand skills and of a certain type (closed fist) is very limiting.  If you find yourself clinched/tied up or on the ground, for example, you want to have other options and responses available.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Oh, Hanzou, apologies, I see you responded above, in part to those questions already.

But to be honest, while you may not know and he may not have levelled with you, he may well have been a very "handy" boxer.

And nothing personal meant, but either he has in another class or your own training failed you - quite possibly due to the training given to you by your teacher/school which was lacking and not rounded or perhaps due to the degree of fight training you had put in yourself and in fighting against other styles.

...And then sometimes, you just get owned on the day by a guy of another style that really wasn't any "higher ranked" in his style than yourself, he just had the forward motion, initiative, whatever.  That happens to everyone and it can be frustrating - and painful.

As you say, you ended up playing his game.

I don't think your experience necessarily means even you can draw the conclusion that karate hand skills, or karate itself is lacking.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.


Agreed, you can get a karate or bjj guy and put him in gloves and have him work the bags and pads all day and spar just in gloves with strikes and with a boxing coach.  Then he will be a great boxer too, in fact he will be a boxer...and no longer a karateka or bjj'er...

Drop bear, the only  reasons a boxer's hands are "better" is because he has solely devoted himself to that.
Just like if we were free styling I may be able to hold my own against you due to my years of judo and experience grappling but if we were to solely go ground floor bjj rules you would wipe me out as that's your world.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Nope, kick boxers fight like them...where do you think kick boxing actually came from? Bored boxers who learnt how to kick?



Wrong but close!
Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block.  They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...

...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Advanced karate techniques like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not sure what that proves, those poor sods can't even kick...


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> Wrong but close!
> Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block.  They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...
> 
> ...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??


Those were homeless boxers. They were just moving.


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> Wrong but close!
> Actually kickboxing came about when a bunch of US boxers in the late 1960s got dispirited by not being able to kick like the cool karate kids on the block.  They didn't have the flexibility to kick the boxing bags so they went about literally kicking boxes in secret and hence a new craze was born...
> 
> ...Do I really need to put emoticons on this one for you and K-Man??




Not wrong, you are talking about the US. I'm not in the US and our experiences don't mirror those in the US. Not everything has started in the US you know! There has been full contact karate here and in Europe for a very long time, before the sixties even!. Kick boxing has developed from full contact karate then when Mt arrived on our shores that was added to the mix.


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Not wrong, you are talking about the US. I'm not in the US and our experiences don't mirror those in the US. Not everything has started in the US you know! There has been full contact karate here and in Europe for a very long time, before the sixties even!. Kick boxing has developed from full contact karate then when Mt arrived on our shores that was added to the mix.


OK, I guess I really did need those emoticons again!!
I was a bit cheeky and put the "wrong" in there just to get you fired up!


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> OK, I guess I really did need those emoticons again!!
> I was a bit cheeky and put the "wrong" in there just to get you fired up!




Good grief I'm not fired up lol, if I am you'll know because I start posting in Cornish. 

My a dhispres agas fowt sotelneth hag agas heb yeth treylyes, ty vab hernenn dhivamm !


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## Zero (Feb 16, 2015)

_I despise your lack of subtlety and your unmutated language, you son of a motherless pilchard _

Nice

Even if I was the offspring of a pilchard, it would definitely not be a motherless one!! 

Now go change your avatar back to the one we all liked, that Cornish anime one, would you!   : )


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## Tez3 (Feb 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> _I despise your lack of subtlety and your unmutated language, you son of a motherless pilchard _
> 
> Nice
> 
> ...




Well done, it's such joyful language to swear in LOL, you watch, someone will report me now...again  Still, I will be back dreckly.


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## Buka (Feb 16, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> My a dhispres agas fowt sotelneth hag agas heb yeth treylyes, ty vab hernenn dhivamm !



Oh, sure, easy for you to say.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.





Touch Of Death said:


> While this is not true, I believe that you believe. Boxers are limited to just a few moves; so, they get better, faster. That's it.



lol. Not really the case. Boxing has a lot of moves when you start adding in tactics and footwork. I know i am still learning new ones.


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## drop bear (Feb 16, 2015)

Zero said:


> Agreed, you can get a karate or bjj guy and put him in gloves and have him work the bags and pads all day and spar just in gloves with strikes and with a boxing coach.  Then he will be a great boxer too, in fact he will be a boxer...and no longer a karateka or bjj'er...
> 
> Drop bear, the only  reasons a boxer's hands are "better" is because he has solely devoted himself to that.
> Just like if we were free styling I may be able to hold my own against you due to my years of judo and experience grappling but if we were to solely go ground floor bjj rules you would wipe me out as that's your world.



well yeah. Kind of my point as well here. A boxer has better hands because that is all he does. So they have developed a system that has more comprehensive striking.

I get out boxed by boxers because they are employing a better system than me. Same as if i get out judoed out karated or out bjjed.

And that is why I train with those guys in their own systems. Because they are better.
I am getting the impression.

None of this nonsense about them being a specialized field. They were better and it is simple as that.

By the way i get the impression people do not think boxing is complicated. And it certainly is.


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## Zero (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> well yeah. Kind of my point as well here. A boxer has better hands because that is all he does. So they have developed a system that has more comprehensive striking.
> 
> I get out boxed by boxers because they are employing a better system than me. Same as if i get out judoed out karated or out bjjed.
> 
> ...



Hmmm?  Who said boxing is not complicated, like anything when you start out and have not been immersed in it for some time, it is complicated.  The body mechanics, weight distribution, balance, body movement and foot work takes a lot to get down pat...at least for me.

I fully rate your training with other styles and agree with this outlook, I too train with boxers and have paid for one on one training with a top ex-national boxer to better my own hand skills and ring work for just that reason.  That's why I also train with the senior jutitsu guy at the goju club and back in the day when I was seriously competing I went to clubs of other styles (kickboxing, muay thai, TKD) and sparred with them.

On your point about boxers simply having a better (hand) striking system than other MAs, such as karate, and not simply because they specialise and focus more on the hand skills than, say a karateka...I follow you.  I am not entirely sure about that...if a guy focused solely on the hand (open and closed) skills and techniques of karate and a different guy of similar attributes focused solely on boxing strikes (but also the boxer's movement, ie the whole boxing package) and then they fought bare knuckles, I wonder who would win and more importantly, who would win more often over several fights.

I think you may be right....as my gut feel is that the boxing style would dominate as it is beautifully crafted for an environment where you do not need to worry about sweeps, knees to the head when you are coming in low, etc.

But it is not a simple question, at least not to me but on the whole I would probably concede I agree with you.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hmmm?  Who said boxing is not complicated, like anything when you start out and have not been immersed in it for some time, it is complicated.  The body mechanics, weight distribution, balance, body movement and foot work takes a lot to get down pat...at least for me.
> 
> I fully rate your training with other styles and agree with this outlook, I too train with boxers and have paid for one on one training with a top ex-national boxer to better my own hand skills and ring work for just that reason.  That's why I also train with the senior jutitsu guy at the goju club and back in the day when I was seriously competing I went to clubs of other styles (kickboxing, muay thai, TKD) and sparred with them.
> 
> ...



It is not just one boxer. It is a bunch of boxers all trying to get better than the other guy. Just like anyone who specializes.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2015)

A boxer trains in the distance of boxing, and only in the distance of boxing. A martial artist trains in more varied distances, which may giver a better overall understanding of distance in self defense situations - but isn't any kind of advantage whatsoever when you're "just boxing" with someone.

A boxers combinations are tighter, time wise, because they are limited in number and are usually applied in training with more immediate and tactile feedback - translation....OUCH, than most Martial strikers.

I think one of the advantages of boxing is the ability and familiarity with hard contact, especially to the head. But in the long run that can be a serious determent to leading a healthy life. The problem is - the strikes to the head add up.....but you are unaware that they are adding up.

I love boxing, the fighting style not the business. But I love Martial Arts a whole lot more. It ain't even close if you ask me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2015)

Okay, so the thread has apparently morphed from the question of whether karate has better kicks than hands to the entirely different question of boxing hands are better than karate hands. Let's do some analysis on this new question ...

First, there's the question of "better for what?" The systems in question were developed in different contexts for different purposes.

Boxing was developed as a form of one-on-one sport competition, with rules that have evolved substantially over the years. It has also been promoted for pretty much the entire span of its existence as a legitimate tool for self-defense purposes. Its techniques and training methods have also been absorbed into a number of eclectic martial arts designed for street self-defense/combative purposes.

Karate was developed as a form of unarmed civilian self-defense and has evolved in a number of directions - light contact (tag) competition, full-contact competition, artistic performance competition, self-discipline, self-defense, and so on.

It makes no sense to expect that a karateka could dominate in a boxing contest or that a boxer would do well in a point-sparring or forms competition, so let's find a neutral ground. Let's look at a one-on-one, unarmed, bare-knuckle street fight and examine how boxing and karate training methodologies will affect the effectiveness of their hands in such an environment.

The first thing I should note is that it's tricky isolating just the "hands" part of the equation. What makes a boxer's hands effective are not just his punches, but his footwork, head movement, conditioning, and other factors as well. To do this comparison properly, we're going to have to take more of an holistic view of both arts. Let's go step by step ...

*Hitting air: shadowboxing vs kata*. Shadowboxing is a free-form exercise sparring against an imaginary opponent. In order to have much benefit beyond a simple warm-up, the fighter needs the experience and mental focus to visualize and respond realistically to the imaginary foe. In contrast, kata are pre-arranged patterns that , according to their proponents, contain the essential lessons of the system. There is considerable disagreement among karateka regarding the meanings of the movements. Are the stances exaggerated for the sake of exercise or not? Does a given movement represent a strike, a block, or a throw? Is the kata just teaching principles of movement or does it represent a specific sequence of moves in an actual fight? Is the approach to performing kata that scores well in competition useful in developing actual fighting skills? The answers will vary considerably from instructor to instructor and some practitioners will tell you that most other practitioners are doing it wrong. Given all this, I am going to say that the effectiveness of kata in preparing for a fight will depend on the individual having the knowledge, experience, and focus to visualize realistic application while performing the kata.

_Verdict: Draw_. It depends on the individual.

*Hitting stationary targets*: Boxers make serious use of the heavy bag to develop power. Karateka traditionally used the makiwara, although some now use the heavy bag instead. So far, so good, but many modern karate schools have let this aspect of training slide and spend most of their time punching air instead.

_Verdict_: _Draw_,_ if_ the karateka trains at a dojo which spends substantial time on the heavy bag or makiwara. _Boxing wins, if_ the karateka spends most of his time hitting air, as many do.

*Hitting pads:* Boxing has developed pad holding into a sophisticated art where the pad holder acts both as a trainer and a sparring partner - feeding openings, forcing movement, and exposing weaknesses. In contrast, every time I've seen a karate instructor holding pads, it's been more of a static thing which is much less useful.

_Verdict: Boxing wins._ Caveat - there's nothing stopping a karate instructor from learning how to hold pads like a boxing coach. I can't see anything that would violate the principles of karate in doing so.

*Sparring:* Continuous sparring with (substantial) contact is standard at any real boxing gym. Unfortunately, a very high percentage of karate schools spar either non-continuously or with limited contact or both. Of those that do spar continuously with hard contact (like Kyokushin Ryu), some don't allow punches to the head, which can lead to bad habits.

_Verdict:_ Boxing wins in _most_ cases. However, there are karateka out there who do continuous sparring with hard contact, including head punches. For those practitioners, the result is a _draw._

*Hand conditioning:* Modern boxers mostly train with boxing gloves, which not only protect the hand but force the hand into an incorrect position for bare-knuckle punching. The old methods for bare-knuckle boxing have been largely forgotten by most practitioners. In contrast, many karateka still work on conditioning the hand for striking hard surfaces (such as a persons skull) with the bare hand.

_Verdict: Karate wins_.

*Footwork:* Boxing develops excellent footwork for controlling distance and angles. Some karate schools have let footwork deteriorate into a game of bouncing back and forth playing tag along a straight line. However there are still plenty of karateka out there who know how to use excellent angular footwork.

_Verdict: Draw_

Head movement: Boxers have developed advanced methods for evasive head movement which make it very hard to land a punch to their heads. I have never seen anything equivalent in any style of karate.

_Verdict: Boxing wins._

*Targeting:* Boxers train to mostly limit their punches to legal target areas. (Some are perfectly willing to hit to the groin or the back of the neck - but only when the ref can't see.) Some karateka operate under a similar range of limited targets, but others do spend extensive practice targeting vulnerable spots such as the groin, throat, eyes, and back of the neck. It's not that hard to adjust to new targets in a new context, but the person who is used to targeting those points should have an edge.

_Verdict: Karate wins._

*Physical conditioning:* Conditioning to build strength, endurance, and physical toughness is an essential element of boxing training. It's traditionally an essential element of karate training as well, but one that has been watered down in a large percentage of dojos. This has a lot to do with the target audience of students. Boxing gyms are typically aimed at building competitive fighters. Many karate dojos are aimed at providing a fun hobby for the whole family and aren't going to push so hard on the conditioning aspect. However, there are still karateka out there who train conditioning hardcore.

_Verdict:_ _Boxing wins_ for the "average" boxer vs karateka. _Draw_ if both fighters are serious athletes.

*Kicking:* Wait, what? I though we were just looking at hands? Correct, but we have to take an holistic look at the use of those hands in context. In good karate, the legs should work to set up the hands (and vice-versa). It's a lot easier to land a punch when you've just kicked your opponent in the groin or swept his leg.

_Verdict: Karate wins._

*Grappling*: (See my comment above regarding kicks.) Modern boxing no longer includes throws, but professional boxers can be suprisingly sophisticated in their use of the clinch to stifle punches, tire out the opponent, set up their own punches, and even apply subtle dirty tricks such as arm wrenches where the ref can't see. I know it just looks like they're hugging each other, but there's more going on than that. Karate (depending on the style) can include a variety of grappling techniques, such as throws, sweeps, hand trapping, and arm bars. However, most karateka don't spend a lot of time sparring with these grappling moves or developing them to a high level of sophistication.

_Verdict: Draw._

* 
The actual hand strikes: jab, cross, hook, uppercut vs jab, backfist, reverse punch, knife hand, etc*. I put this last because I consider the details of the techniques to be less important than the training methods. Karate has more officially named hand techniques, but boxing has enough variations on the basic punches so that an individual fighter probably has about the same number of go-to moves in a fight. The boxer will probably be more polished with his punches, since he doesn't have to dedicate training time to kicks. As far as the merits of the actual techniques ... I'm partial to boxing, but I totally respect the punching technique of those karateka who actually train and fight full contact. As I noted in another thread, in the heat of an actual fight a reverse punch and a rear cross start to look awfully alike.

_Verdict: Boxing has an edge_ due to specialization and practice.



*Overall verdict:* A typical competitive boxer will have a strong advantage with hands over a hobbyist karateka (even a black belt) at an average dojo. If the karateka is a serious fighter from a hardcore dojo that trains full contact, then the fight is much more even.


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## Zero (Feb 17, 2015)

Buka said:


> A boxer trains in the distance of boxing, and only in the distance of boxing. A martial artist trains in more varied distances, which may giver a better overall understanding of distance in self defense situations - but isn't any kind of advantage whatsoever when you're "just boxing" with someone.
> 
> A boxers combinations are tighter, time wise, because they are limited in number and are usually applied in training with more immediate and tactile feedback - translation....OUCH, than most Martial strikers.
> 
> ...



It's a good point, I have had some nasty injuries over the years from MA but have recovered from such.  I do not like to think of doing the same twenty or more years in boxing and what those constant, including even those lesser strength, shots to the head over that period of time would mean...I need to hold onto what grey cells I have left!!


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

What I have seen in the karate clubs here and what we train is at odds with what is supposedly 'traditional' karate if I go by what Tony has posted.
We all do shadow boxing *and* kata.
We all use heavy bags, including kick bags.
We use pads a lot.
We do continuous sparring including head shots.
We do a lot of conditioning.
It may be that it's because we don't have or have very few  commercial 'schools' here. It could be too that we have had some terrific karateka like Vic Charles and Ticky Donovan who still shape karate in it's 'hard' form. It could also be that it's not considered a suitable childcare option. I just know that wherever I've been in a karate place it's always been hard style karate. A good many TKD places are here too though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> What I have seen in the karate clubs here and what we train is at odds with what is supposedly 'traditional' karate if I go by what Tony has posted.
> We all do shadow boxing *and* kata.
> We all use heavy bags, including kick bags.
> We use pads a lot.
> ...


 Some of that _is _traditional - it's the tippy-tappy point tag game and the ninja turtles XMA kata that are more recent developments.

Glad to hear you've got good quality karate schools where you are. How do your trainers hold pads? Do they work movement and angles and fire back when the trainee leaves an opening?


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> *Hand conditioning:* Modern boxers mostly train with boxing gloves, which not only protect the hand but force the hand into an incorrect position for bare-knuckle punching. The old methods for bare-knuckle boxing have been largely forgotten by most practitioners. In contrast, many karateka still work on conditioning the hand for striking hard surfaces (such as a persons skull) with the bare hand.



on this point. Every you tube clip of bare knuckle boxers i have seen they are training with gloves on.

We train a bit in kudo and that is bare knuckle ish. They have a pad but that is about it.

Thai train with shin guards but fight bare leg.
hand conditioning and wearing gloves are two separate exercises.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Some of that _is _traditional - it's the tippy-tappy point tag game and the ninja turtles XMA kata that are more recent developments.
> 
> Glad to hear you've got good quality karate schools where you are. How do your trainers hold pads? Do they work movement and angles and fire back when the trainee leaves an opening?




We hold them exactly as boxers do lol. You don't keep your guard up you get a pad round your head or to the body.
 My father taught me to box when I was a child, he was a good boxer, used to spar with some good people back then so I've been boxing for at least 50 years. I've been to JKD clubs and TKD clubs where they hold the pads the same way. To be honest in all the years I've been doing martial arts I've not seen a lot of the 'touch' type of sparring, it's there of course, I've heard people speaking about clubs where they compete in it but most places I've been are hard training places. Watching the Gurkhas in the TKD classes makes you wince and shows TKD off very well.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The actual hand strikes: jab, cross, hook, uppercut vs jab, backfist, reverse punch, knife hand, etc



And this is a bit interesting because i can use back fists knife hands and so on in mma. But tend not to.

The standing knife hand strike actually leaves you a bit open to counter hooks.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And this is a bit interesting because i can use back fists knife hands and so on in mma. But tend not to.
> 
> The standing knife hand strike actually leaves you a bit open to counter hooks.


Back knuckles are the fastest move a person can throw, and you don't use them. Don't YOU find that interesting? LOL


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We hold them exactly as boxers do lol. You don't keep your guard up you get a pad round your head or to the body.


 Sounds like your local karate has been strongly influenced by boxing training methodology then. (Not really surprising, since England is the original home of boxing.) I've never seen anything like the boxing style of holding mitts in any footage of traditional karate training in Japan or Okinawa or in any U.S. karate schools I've visited.

For anyone who isn't familiar with the style of mitt holding we're talking about, here's a couple of guys from my gym doing some focus mitt work:


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Sounds like your local karate has been strongly influenced by boxing training methodology then. (Not really surprising, since England is the original home of boxing.) I've never seen anything like the boxing style of holding mitts in any footage of traditional karate training in Japan or Okinawa or in any U.S. karate schools I've visited.
> 
> For anyone who isn't familiar with the style of mitt holding we're talking about, here's a couple of guys from my gym doing some focus mitt work:




When we get new people in and they hold the pads they assume that punching them is the hardest thing lol, not until afterwards do they realise what an exercise holding the pads is.  
If I'm honest I didn't know there was any other way of holding pads other than how you show, everywhere I've been does this. Now I think about it boxing could well be the reason, I think most kids here can do at least a bit of boxing even if it's only dad's teaching.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Back knuckles are the fastest move a person can throw, and you don't use them. Don't YOU find that interesting? LOL



And yet there is nothing stopping me back knuckling people. And almost nobody uses them standing. 
(we do use them for ground and pound. Or at least the hammerfist which is kind of the same concept.)

But if you use that back knuckle at the same time as i hook. You will hit my guard and i will hit your jaw. You would have to find an opening to use that shot. And it kind of has to be a better option than a strait shot. And that does not come around very often.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> When we get new people in and they hold the pads they assume that punching them is the hardest thing lol, not until afterwards do they realise what an exercise holding the pads is.
> If I'm honest I didn't know there was any other way of holding pads other than how you show, everywhere I've been does this. Now I think about it boxing could well be the reason, I think most kids here can do at least a bit of boxing even if it's only dad's teaching.


Yeah, being a good pad holder is a skill into itself. (To be honest, I'm not very good at it. Just another thing I need to work on.  )


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

A bit off topic but fun. The above is why a good move is to counter with the blocking hand and not the free hand. If i block and counter with my free arm. Chances are i will hit his guard.

if i block and counter with the same arm his guard is down because he has punched.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, being a good pad holder is a skill into itself. (To be honest, I'm not very good at it. Just another thing I need to work on.  )



It is not just a skill thing. It is also a synchronicity with the puncher.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> And yet there is nothing stopping me back knuckling people. And almost nobody uses them standing.
> (we do use them for ground and pound. Or at least the hammerfist which is kind of the same concept.)
> 
> But if you use that back knuckle at the same time as i hook. You will hit my guard and i will hit your jaw. You would have to find an opening to use that shot. And it kind of has to be a better option than a strait shot. And that does not come around very often.


I'll beat that hook, and you will hit my shoulder. I am not stupid. LOL


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'll beat that hook, and you will hit my shoulder. I am not stupid. LOL



you physically cant beat that hook.  Blocking punches with your shoulder is a last ditch method and nobody throws back fists with a high shoulder because it is a goober way to throw a back fist. You bind yourself up.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'll beat that hook, and you will hit my shoulder. I am not stupid. LOL



yeah no gap between that shoulder and the head.(he says sarcastically)
I could drive a truck through there.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yeah no gap between that shoulder and the head.(he says sarcastically)
> I could drive a truck through there.


First of all, this guy blows chunks all over the street.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> you physically cant beat that hook.  Blocking punches with your shoulder is a last ditch method and nobody throws back fists with a high shoulder because it is a goober way to throw a back fist. You bind yourself up.


Yes, I can. And, no I won't.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

I don't expect not to get hit; so, I keep my shoulders high and my knees bent. If I beat the hook, which I will because it is the faster move, I will connect, and probably still catch that hook on the shoulder, but its off, now.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yes, I can. And, no I won't.



You find me a video of anybody throwing a back fist without a gigantic gap between their shoulder and their head.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

Catching kicks and punches on the shoulder requires multiple points of contact, but is by no means a last ditch effort. How old are you again?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You find me a video of anybody throwing a back fist without a gigantic gap between their shoulder and their head.


Watch Ali fights on youtube. He was always getting called for it.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

Ok, you got me doing these in the air, and my shoulder cradles my jaw every time. How am I bound up? I throw vertical BKs by the way, not what ever the hell your demonstrator was doing.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Ok, you got me doing these in the air, and my shoulder cradles my jaw every time. How am I bound up? I throw vertical BKs by the way, not what ever the hell your demonstrator was doing.



the video was picked at random. Look if you can throw it with a good shoulder all the better. You are still crossing up though. You are going the long way around to hit my head leaving me the short way open to hit you back.

You could find unique situations to throw back fists. But in basic combinations there is almost always going to be something better.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Watch Ali fights on youtube. He was always getting called for it.



Just because Ali does it does not mean anybody else can.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Just because Ali does it does not mean anybody else can.


Actually, anyone can throw vertical back-knuckles like a jab.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> the video was picked at random. Look if you can throw it with a good shoulder all the better. You are still crossing up though. You are going the long way around to hit my head leaving me the short way open to hit you back.
> 
> You could find unique situations to throw back fists. But in basic combinations there is almost always going to be something better.


I'm going straight in, you are going around. LOL


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, being a good pad holder is a skill into itself. (To be honest, I'm not very good at it. Just another thing I need to work on.  )



I can hold pads for all but the very strongest of our fighters to punch hard, with them I'm put to doing 'speed' work because I can move the pads fast enough to push their reactions up. they don't punch as hard but faster, it's just one of the drills we do.
Other drills are punching a named amount of times then sprawl or 'crawl' through pad holders legs and get back to punching as quickly as possible, sometimes it's punch then press up punch press ups. sometimes it's pad work and then you shout sprawl/press up/sit up etc. It's part of the conditioning work but with pad work too. We also do pad work when you are on your back with the pad holder sitting on you and vice versa. That all comes courtesy of one of our instructors/fighters Sandy, ex Para PTI who has the record for getting more recruits through P Company than any other PTI.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually, anyone can throw vertical back-knuckles like a jab.



Effectively as Ali? He can throw stuff because he has set up the position to throw it.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> the video was picked at random. Look if you can throw it with a good shoulder all the better. You are still crossing up though. You are going the long way around to hit my head leaving me the short way open to hit you back.
> 
> You could find unique situations to throw back fists. But in basic combinations there is almost always going to be something better.


Maybe you don't understand what one is... Put your hand on your pec, whip your fist loosely, but straight out and vertical, and bring it right back. Like you are snapping a towel.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Effectively as Ali? He can throw stuff because he has set up the position to throw it.


Actually the trick was to be far enough away that you hit with the front of your glove. No set up at all, there, just resetting, really. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually the trick was to be far enough away that you hit with the front of your glove. No set up at all, there, just resetting, really. LOL


And he was always able to be the hook, because of the distance a straight Back-knuckle jab can cover.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

From my post earlier, this is Sandy the Para. he's the bald Scottish 'ref'. This is _milling _*not* boxing, it doesn't matter what the skill set is as that's not what is being looked for. They are looking for that aggressive, no backing down spirit not punching skills but it's interesting to see how non boxers or martial artists punch. It's only recently they have been given head guards.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Maybe you don't understand what one is... Put your hand on your pec, whip your fist loosely, but straight out and vertical, and bring it right back. Like you are snapping a towel.



ok lets leave the hook. We will play the speed game and throw a counter straight. You back fist with your left i throw a straight right over the top.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually the trick was to be far enough away that you hit with the front of your glove. No set up at all, there, just resetting, really. LOL



Actually the trick is to be Ali.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ok lets leave the hook. We will play the speed game and throw a counter straight. You back fist with your left i throw a straight right over the top.


But because, I beat you to the punch, that same punching hand is now cradling my head, like the precious baby that it is.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Actually the trick is to be Ali.


Again, anyone can do this. LOL


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Again, anyone can do this. LOL



Which is why we see everybody doing it. Lol.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Which is why we see everybody doing it. Lol.


I'm sorry they didn't teach you the Back knuckle, but you really should check it out.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2015)

I'm with Touch of Death on this. I've used back fists forever. In boxing I mix them with jabs, sometimes throwing them off the jab instead of a double jab. Sometimes throwing them off the left hook if he slips it and starts to counter. Sometimes I use them to get them to throw that counter right, which I try to counter with the left hook. I use them far less than I use a jab, but I use them. And I have a fast one - which usually hides that incoming right cross or overhand right.

Do I get hit sometimes? Well, yeah, it's fighting, (duh) I seem to always get hit.

Know who's the easiest to hit with a back fist while boxing? Guys who think it doesn't work because they don't throw any. Same as a guy who's got a lazy jab.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> But because, I beat you to the punch, that same punching hand is now cradling my head, like the precious baby that it is.



so your back fist is so fast that you are out and back by the time the other pun h can get out. It is basically twice as fast as a straight punch.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, so the thread has apparently morphed from the question of whether karate has better kicks than hands to the entirely different question of boxing hands are better than karate hands. Let's do some analysis on this new question ...
> 
> First, there's the question of "better for what?" The systems in question were developed in different contexts for different purposes.
> 
> ...



I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post.

What's up with you fricken' Jiu-jitsu guys? Has syntax, composition and damn good writing become part of the curriculum at purple belt or something? (I hate all of you)


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I'm sorry they didn't teach you the Back knuckle, but you really should check it out.



Oh so the back fist is a secret technique? That one i found on youtube in about five seconds.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Oh so the back fist is a secret technique? That one i found on youtube in about five seconds.


You found crap in five seconds.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> so your back fist is so fast that you are out and back by the time the other pun h can get out. It is basically twice as fast as a straight punch.


I may not make it, but it may obstruct the incoming blow, just trying.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Buka said:


> I'm with Touch of Death on this. I've used back fists forever. In boxing I mix them with jabs, sometimes throwing them off the jab instead of a double jab. Sometimes throwing them off the left hook if he slips it and starts to counter. Sometimes I use them to get them to throw that counter right, which I try to counter with the left hook. I use them far less than I use a jab, but I use them. And I have a fast one - which usually hides that incoming right cross or overhand right.
> 
> Do I get hit sometimes? Well, yeah, it's fighting, (duh) I seem to always get hit.
> 
> Know who's the easiest to hit with a back fist while boxing? Guys who think it doesn't work because they don't throw any. Same as a guy who's got a lazy jab.



yeah lazy jab i could parry and back fist. I could even maby back fist something like that spear defence thing of a big swinging hook.

The issue is i could throw a straight as well.

Back fist to right cross should bring my hand up. Making that right cross harder to get in. Same with that double jab.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> yeah lazy jab i could parry and back fist. I could even maby back fist something like that spear defence thing of a big swinging hook.
> 
> The issue is i could throw a straight as well.
> 
> Back fist to right cross should bring my hand up. Making that right cross harder to get in. Same with that double jab.


Yes, back knuckles are also vertical and vertical extended blocks.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I may not make it, but it may obstruct the incoming blow, just trying.



Can you knock a guy out with that back fist? Because you can with a straight right. Which you are risking being cleaned up by.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Yes, back knuckles are also vertical and vertical extended blocks.



I think i get what you are saying. Back fist as a parry and mabye some sort of strike at the end.

i think you might be asking a bit much from that move.


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## drop bear (Feb 17, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You found crap in five seconds.



You are welcome to post better.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I think i get what you are saying. Back fist as a parry and mabye some sort of strike at the end.
> 
> i think you might be asking a bit much from that move.


I am a demanding guy. LOL


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You are welcome to post better.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you knock a guy out with that back fist? Because you can with a straight right. Which you are risking being cleaned up by.


Yes, because it becomes a thrust as soon as it leaves your body. You just have to align yourself to back it up.


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## Tez3 (Feb 17, 2015)

That's not how we do back fists in Wado Ryu.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Can you knock a guy out with that back fist? Because you can with a straight right. Which you are risking being cleaned up by.


Try a back knuckle off the lead hand, like I told you, but this time, drop your lead foot back as you throw it, and stick the foot on contact.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 17, 2015)

We'll call it the Dempsy BK. LOL


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 17, 2015)

Buka said:


> I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post.
> 
> What's up with you fricken' Jiu-jitsu guys? Has syntax, composition and damn good writing become part of the curriculum at purple belt or something? (I hate all of you)


My instructor says that jiu-jitsu guys are the nerds who were in the chess club in high school - and the MMA guys are the jocks who used to beat us up and take our lunch money.

Kind of a gross overgeneralization, but I'm not going to say it's all wrong.


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## Buka (Feb 17, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My instructor says that jiu-jitsu guys are the nerds who were in the chess club in high school - and the MMA guys are the jocks who used to beat us up and take our lunch money.
> 
> Kind of a gross overgeneralization, but I'm not going to say it's all wrong.



That's pretty damn funny. I tip my hat to your instructor. Lunch money...I'm going to laugh at that all day.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


>



nice but no shoulder tuck.


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My instructor says that jiu-jitsu guys are the nerds who were in the chess club in high school - and the MMA guys are the jocks who used to beat us up and take our lunch money.
> 
> Kind of a gross overgeneralization, but I'm not going to say it's all wrong.



Nah all martial artists are chess nerds. Cool kids play ball sports


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> nice but no shoulder tuck.


He isn't in a ring dodging punches. LOL


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> He isn't in a ring dodging punches. LOL



and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.


Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?



So you are saying that doing a basic striking mistake like creating unnecessary space in your guard is the result of having to spend time kicking or wrestling?

And not boxing having a more comprehensive system because that is all they do?


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## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Because that is all he trains for. Are we just gong to keep talking in circles?



oh and he trains mma as well. So that isn't all he trains for.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> oh and he trains mma as well. So that isn't all he trains for.


I just chose a random video of some guy to a vertical back knuckle that was better than what you had shown. If he does train in MMA, he should learn to protect his head. Remember, if I am down in stance, as I stated, and I am striking upward toward the jaw, my shoulder just creeps right up to my jaw. If I grow straight off the shoulder, then yeah, I see the issue.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 18, 2015)

I will have you using and believing in this move before the end of this conversation!


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 18, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Frankly, yes Karate's traditional hand techniques are seriously lacking in modern MA, which is why so many Karateka adopt boxing when they're actually sparring or fighting someone. Boxing sets the standard for hand techniques for a variety of reasons.
> 
> Karate's hand techniques are fine for training purposes. Unfortunately, they have heavy drawbacks in terms of actual application.


|
I think this belief is a total misnomer, one popularized by those who prefer sport fighting such as boxing....
|
Many looking at kihon (basic) karate hand techniques without proper training do not understand the mechanisms behind traditional karate hand technique.  Kihon karate hand techniques are strong, fast & precise, gathering on more of of body's internal strength compared to say boxing.  Furthermore, kihon karate techniques are designed for continual action, again drawing upon the whole body's strength with each move.  Moreover, it is the mental link between body & the conscious mind that gives rise to the dynamic striking of the karate expert.  Traditional karate exercises are specifically designed to develop just that.  Sport fighting relies on reactive "muscle memory."
|
Of course developing these higher level of abilities goes way beyond the physical abilities exhibited by the boxer. Nonetheless, the karateka had better be high in proficiency or the skilled boxer will handily destroy the casual karate practitioner.  It takes years & many, many  hundreds of hours of dedicated traditional karate practice to begin to form the solid karate foundation.  Now you have the reason for the failure of karate hands skills so often complained about....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> and yet i can find a boxer demonstrating a jab with good shoulder protection.not in a ring dodging punches.


I
Many, many competition karateka report having trouble against the boxers jab such as illustrated.  Many try to adopt the "jab."
|
Traditional kihon karate is fundamentally different on many fronts.  To take on the boxer's jab, one must be well trained in karate basics.  For instance, karate traditionalists do not tuck the chin & roll to the shoulder to absorb the strike.  Traditional karate actively blocks the strike, then typically counters.
|
Successful karate blocking requires a high level of mental discipline-- to get the right block in the right way at the right time, all supported by the entire body.  No easy task and generally not relied upon by many karate competitors.  Why,? because they can't do traditional karate.
|
It's just as necessary to be able to immediately adjust and flow into the next move by your opponent.  Here, to be prepared for the 1-2, the follow-on right (2).  After blocking the jab, you must counter strike first, hitting before the opponent's right can be effective.  Or alternatively, you must be prepared to block the follow-on right as well.  The decision-tree goes on from there...
|
Traditional karate is a mental discipline, the body powered by the active mind at all times in fast, continuous engagement until the opponent is disabled.  Traditional karate is not a list of techniques nor a set of gambits....
|
Props on the boxing-jab vid.  Was very clear on instruction.  Now karate traditionalists have no excuse about learning how to defeat it.....


----------



## Buka (Feb 18, 2015)

ShotoNoob - welcome to the forum, bro.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 18, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I will have you using and believing in this move before the end of this conversation!



does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 18, 2015)

drop bear said:


> does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.


Sure, why not?


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I think this belief is a total misnomer, one popularized by those who prefer sport fighting such as boxing....
> |
> Many looking at kihon (basic) karate hand techniques without proper training do not understand the mechanisms behind traditional karate hand technique.  Kihon karate hand techniques are strong, fast & precise, gathering on more of of body's internal strength compared to say boxing.  Furthermore, kihon karate techniques are designed for continual action, again drawing upon the whole body's strength with each move.  Moreover, it is the mental link between body & the conscious mind that gives rise to the dynamic striking of the karate expert.  Traditional karate exercises are specifically designed to develop just that.  Sport fighting relies on reactive "muscle memory."
> ...



Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.

Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 19, 2015)

Zero said:


> Not sure what that proves, those poor sods can't even kick...



He's going for his 5th degree black belt.


----------



## Paul_D (Feb 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I do believe the point is that none of that resembled kata, and if Kyokushin allowed head punches, their hand techniques would look similar to boxing/kickboxing.



Why would kata resemble Sparring?  Sparring is for competition fighting, kata is for dealing with civilian self defence.  Two very different things, hence the look different and use different techniques for different purposes. 

You wouldn't get into a ring or a cage and start doing Naihanchi anymore than a mugger is going to stand five feet away, side on, in a fighting stance, springing in and out every now and again with an exploratory jabs trying to our point you on the judges score card.

_
Choki Motobu, another famous pioneer, is also said to have expressed this view. Shoshin Nagamine, a student of Motobu, in his book Tales of Okinawa’s Great Masters tells us that his teacher said:


“The techniques of the kata were never developed to be used against a professional fighter in an arena or on a battlefield." _


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2015)

Paul_D said:


> Why would kata resemble Sparring?  Sparring is for competition fighting, kata is for dealing with civilian self defence.  Two very different things, hence the look different and use different techniques for different purposes.
> 
> You wouldn't get into a ring or a cage and start doing Naihanchi anymore than a mugger is going to stand five feet away, side on, in a fighting stance, springing in and out every now and again with an exploratory jabs trying to our point you on the judges score card.
> 
> ...




We don't have a 'thank you' option anymore so I've copied this so I can say thank you for a very good post that hits the nail exactly on the head.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> does it count if i hammer fist in gnp? Actually do the front fist back fist combination so that i chamber the punch less often.


You could back knuckle him, leave your hand on target, grab his jacket, and jump on his back... if you wanted.


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## Zero (Feb 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> He's going for his 5th degree black belt.


yeah, it's horrific, I've witnessed this first hand as most of us have also


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.
> 
> Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.


|
YES, I couldn't agree more with your general observations, as I stated in my post comment.  The reason, IMHO, is precisely your reference to the word, "SPORT."  Those karateka having supar-techniques owe to training karate as if it is a physical sport.  Sure, they are repeating the kihon moves, sparring techniques, but only regurgitating what they see in physical form presented in class.  The art & science behind what they are doing is not understood, hence not engaged.
|
Also very common, you see karate practitioners learn karate form, again physically, and then shift to boxing form when sparring or in competition  because this is more natural & practical to do rather than become accomplished at traditional karate principles.  The result is a lot of punching & kicking often descending into 2 guys slugging it out.... It's quite a task to learn to develop & call upon the internal strength of the entire  body and use it in a highly coordinated way, deliberately controlled by the mental discipline of the conscious mind at every turn....  AS OPPOSED to Muscle memory & external body mechanics....
|
Boxing & Muay Thai are highly effective on the physical level.  Traditional karate as I've described above is after something different.  Just learning how to perform karate moves physically, YES I agree is somewhat of a lost cause against skilled athletes.  Doing traditional karate is much involved than demonstrating knowledge of the physical form.  Too many karate practitioners approach their training as sport, and this observation is lamented by any number of Traditionalist Sensei.
|
For the record, I follow the UFC MMA karate fighters.  Note that both Machida and Wonderboy Thompson have had their difficulty (losses) against Muay Thai fighters.  However, though traditionalist based, I consider both Machida & Wonderboy sport karate fighers--very good ones @ that....  So IOW, I see where you are coming from.  I'll post later on My generalized "key" to defeating boxers, etc.


----------



## Zero (Feb 19, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Its amazing how often I hear this, yet I still find plenty of karateka who exhibit pretty sub-par techniques compared to boxers and other "sport" fighters. Heck, I posted a few videos earlier in this thread.
> 
> Now keep in mind, in a vacuum, Karate hand techniques are just fine. However, if someone was asking me where to go to best develop hand techniques, I wouldn't suggest Karate to them. If they needed a good punching and kicking game, I would suggest Muay Thai kickboxing. Again, I simply couldn't recommend Karate in good faith.



Look, I have fought plenty of muay thai fighters and kick boxers and have found their hand skills no better than mine.  If anything, I would say I am not overly impressed with the punching of a lot of muay thai  fighters and personally have issues with their upper body/gloves fight and guard stance.  When competing I am generally in a boxer's position, albeit with perhaps a slightly wider and more side on stance/positioning of the legs which enables more effective and quicker throwing of kicks but my hands are pretty much as per a boxer's, this is different to muay thai guys I have fought and watch.

I would also say that your comment that karateka have sub-par hand skills to other "sport" fighters is not correct, or at least very hard to justify.
In my experience, and having done TKD all through high school myself, karateka generally have better punches and a better defensive guard to punches than TKD guys - that's clearly a generalisation.  Perhaps kick boxers are on the whole "better" than karateka but not sure if that is the case really (same goes for muay thai, keeping the elbows to the side of the equation).  And aside from TKD, MT and kickboxing what else do you have sport wise other than boxing and karate (...maybe savate).  Are you saying bjj and judo have better hand striking skills than karate in general??

There is a lot of suck-bad karate out there for sure but I honestly think you got this suck-bad training yourself in your years of Shotokan, either that or you did not put the time in or somehow didn't "gell" with the training and/or style (which happens), which you seem to have done when you took up boxing.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Buka said:


> I can't begin to tell you how much I love this post.
> 
> What's up with you fricken' Jiu-jitsu guys? Has syntax, composition and damn good writing become part of the curriculum at purple belt or something? (I hate all of you)


|
I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well.  However, I disagree with the conclusions.  WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
|
1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads.  As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions.  Great for the athlete, the boxer.  For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
|
Traditional karate doesn't rely on external body mechanics or hone reactions.  Traditional karate develops the internally coordinated strength which is then applied in a highly precise way.  The conscious mind is always directing the physical techniques, with the mind & body working in unison.  The Japanese karate term of KIME explains some of the working goal of this process.  Though traditional karate is expressed physically, it is always driven by the thought process.  From punching "air" in kihon techniques to kata practice, the union of mind & body, with the mind over the body, is the dynamic.
|
Since what I've described is largely an internal process, you can't see the dynamic of what's going on inside.  How many really understand this?  Based on what I've laid out, sport fighting methods & comparisons are relevant, but not the competent way, to evaluate traditional karate principles....


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well.  However, I disagree with the conclusions.  WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
> |
> 1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads.  As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions.  Great for the athlete, the boxer.  For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
> ...


 Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that. 

Personally, I've never seen any evidence that traditional karateka apply their strength with any more precision than boxers or that they have greater unity of mind and body than boxers. Hmmm ... how would you test that hypothesis?


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## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that.



Perhaps in his wisdom he would like to tell us exactly why it's a counter productive waste of time to punch a pad instead of punching into the air?


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Ooh, someone tell Tez that she and the other karateka she trains with are wasting their time with the pads. I'm sure she'll be pleased to learn that.
> 
> Personally, I've never seen any evidence that traditional karateka apply their strength with any more precision than boxers or that they have greater unity of mind and body than boxers. Hmmm ... how would you test that hypothesis?


|
I'm well aware of your position--I see it often in my dojo & others.  I've posted a view that is contrary to yours.  You've say you've never seen any evidence contrary to your view.  Yet did you respond to any of the specifics of the "hypothesis" I described?
|
I just laid out on a forum / board some traditional karate principles for members to consider.  Nobody is going to "prove" anything on a blog....that's the limitation of a forum.  Members are free to look at the ideas or reject them outright.....
|
Being pleased with your own accomplishments & approach doesn't make it "better" or "correct."  If you are sure in your knowledge, so be it.  My accomplishments stand on their own also.  The instructors at my current dojo were skeptical, they found out everybody is on a learning curve regardless of rank....  I've been working with a Master at another branch who is interested in applying traditional karate for MMA.  He's been pretty much on board with my input.  Focus mitts & pads, >> not included.  The majority who want to use these training aids--that's up to them.  I put on a demonstration breaking boards within what is typically a non-fighting an "air punching" exercise.  I challenged the class to do the same,   Not a single bag / pad puncher could match what I did....including the instructor.  I got that way by doing the traditional karate curriculum-no sport equipment assist and yes, a lot of "air punching."  It's the foundation that gives rise to karate power, not the test....
|
Thanks for the reply... my view is opposed to yours in a number of ways....  In your answer, you basically restated your position (which I already acknowledged), then you said I don't do what all the "karateka" like TEZ do (which I also already made clear).  In kumite, at the outset I've had the overconfident make cocky gestures at me; Me, no eye rolls [either].


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps in his wisdom he would like to tell us exactly why it's a counter productive waste of time to punch a pad instead of punching into the air?


|
I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master."  Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
|
EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master."  Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
> |
> EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....


The titles you see next to our names have nothing to do with our martial arts ranks or skills. It's just a forum thing reflecting our post count. You can be a 10th degree black belt in real life and the forum software will list you as "white belt" when you start posting. On the other hand, you might never have trained a day in your life, but if you spend all your time posting on MartialTalk the forum software will eventually list you as "Grand Master."


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master."  Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
> |
> EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....


That is her MartialTalk rank, there, ShotoNoobie. LOL


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm well aware of your position--I see it often in my dojo & others.  I've posted a view that is contrary to yours.  You've say you've never seen any evidence contrary to your view.  Yet did you respond to any of the specifics of the "hypothesis" I described?
> |
> I just laid out on a forum / board some traditional karate principles for members to consider.  Nobody is going to "prove" anything on a blog....that's the limitation of a forum.  Members are free to look at the ideas or reject them outright.....
> ...



Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.

To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?

(BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.
> 
> To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?
> 
> (BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )


Believe it or not I almost agree, on some weird level. The fact that we are punching at all, from that distance, is a sport concept. Why not close the distance and gouge the chest with the elbow, leaving the punch as a secondary concept, or, icing on that cake?


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master."  Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
> |
> EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....




Well, if you have finished being rude *and* mistaken perhaps you'd like to answer my question.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm always skeptical of those who title themselves "Grand Master."  Isn't really mastering [Master?] something hard enough?
> |
> EDIT: "Sr. Grand Master" nonetheless........ kinda like a Grand Master but something extra & above "Grand" .... now I get it....



The title is merely a reflection of the fact that Tony has been here longer than you and posted more than you. I'd also caution you against making posts that come across as insulting and rude.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I think Tony D's Post is relevant & presented well.  However, I disagree with the conclusions.  WHY? Traditional karate is a mental discipline, not a sport.
> |
> 1. Take the issue of the boxer's use of pads.  As Tony says, they're a great tool for applying physical power and honing muscle reactions.  Great for the athlete, the boxer.  For traditional karate, however, a counter-productive waste of time.
> ...



You would still see the evidence of it. Because it is either going to work or it isn't.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Believe it or not I almost agree, on some weird level. The fact that we are punching at all, from that distance, is a sport concept. Why not close the distance and gouge the chest with the elbow, leaving the punch as a secondary concept, or, icing on that cake?



you can try that. The issue is that elbows are really hard to apply when you are getting punched.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> That is her MartialTalk rank, there, ShotoNoobie. LOL


|
Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either].  I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?"  I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob."  Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either].  I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?"  I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob."  Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....



I hate to interrupt but I'm wondering if you are going to get around to answering my question or if you are going to ignore it? For all we know you may be correct but unless you are willing to explain your statement you will have to expect scepticism, one cannot make a statement like that and assume one is too knowledgeable to be questioned.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either].  I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?"  I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob."  Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....


Touch of Death was a video game on the Simpson's.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 19, 2015)

Drop bears are bloody scary.


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## Zero (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Ah, never LOL'd a kumite opponent [either].  I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?"  I think your handle "Touch of Death" is scarier than my handle of "ShotoNoob."  Not sure my pun works but let's be consistent in our replies.....



I agree, for some time now I have hoped Touch Of Death would change his name, it's really scary and intimidating, it freaks me out so much I no longer check MT on my mobile in the bathroom with the lights out, it's too scary!!


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Which specifics of your post would you like me to address? I mentioned the precision and "mind-body unity" elements and the fact that I haven't seen those any more highly developed among traditional karateka than among boxers.
> 
> To be clear, I never criticized anything about your approach to training. You were the one who claims that pad training is counter-productive. Perhaps you can elaborate on that, as Tez requested. How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?
> 
> (BTW - putting scare quotes around "karateka" to describe a forum member like Tez who has been practicing karate for decades is likely to be taken as insulting. )


|
PP#1: YES,  I believe the principle of "mind-body unity" is central to the discussion.  I did talk about this generally.  Let me add I do agree that a good boxer will typically destroy the karateka unless that karateka has achieved the kind of mind-body unity provided by proper traditional karate training.  Good muscular coordination is not what I'm talking about.

PP#2:  Well, aspects of the responses have been critical.  I also recognize a boxing feint when I see one.  Takes mental discipline.  Your question is the right question so thanks for that.  Let me start by saying... those that characterize kihon karate practice as "punching air" are looking at only the outward expression of the physical movement of the student / practitioner.  And that include anyone who claims to be insulted.  I'd like to see a member take my proposition and make a substantive contribution.

BTW: The Master I am working with on Karate for MMA has been practicing for decades.  He's more knowledgeable on the technical aspects & traditional karate curriculum.  I bring certain conceptual principles & link to actual application.  His class isn't very popular for a lot of reasons, the mental discipline required a big one.  We intend to focus on the black-belt level foundation kihon, kata & traditional kumite exercises rather that the conventional free sparring regimen found in MMA.  Hope  that helps in the explanation department.

BTW2: Used the link to your blog and in reading the second to latest post, I think see some of your concepts of martial arts training.  As I said, there is a fundamental difference there with mine and I will say your reasoning is quite prevalent among competition karate.  I have to do some reading there... thanks for the link.


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You would still see the evidence of it. Because it is either going to work or it isn't.


|
@drop bear, Drop-Scary Bear....
|
Dig a little deeper.  How do you know, from just observing the outward physical form, whether it's athletically (physical moves re-actively practiced over & over) performed OR is it mentally disciplined (the conscious mind deliberately exercising exacting control of the whole body at all times)?
|
Now dig a lot deeper.....


----------



## chinto (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> @drop bear, Drop-Scary Bear....
> |
> Dig a little deeper.  How do you know, from just observing the outward physical form, whether it's athletically (physical moves re-actively practiced over & over) performed OR is it mentally disciplined (the conscious mind deliberately exercising exacting control of the whole body at all times)?
> ...


 
Okinawan Karate does not have better kicks then hands. it has good kicks and good hands.  to respond to some one who asked about face, and head punching, its there but the emphisis in most styles is on the body because if you brake ribs or damage the liver they can NOT continue to breath well or fight. you Can fight with most of the bones in your face broken.


----------



## chinto (Feb 19, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Lack of face punching in some styles.




not in Okinawan styles. also the emphasis is on the body as that is the quicker way to stop that person being able to fight. if he can not breath he can not fight!  you can fight still if your determined, with most of your facial bones broken with little reduction in your ability to fight comparatively.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I note Tony D. mentions below how I wrote "" was a "scare?"


I said that you used scare quotes when referring to Tez as a "karateka." The term _scare quotes _has nothing to do with being scary. It's when you put quotation marks around something, not because you are actually quoting anybody, but because you are indicating that you don't consider the words inside the quotes to be accurate. Used in this context, when you refer to _all the "karateka" like Tez, _it conveys roughly the same meaning as _all the *so-called* karateka like Tez.
_
If this wasn't what you intended to communicate, then it might be a good idea to clarify.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 19, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> @drop bear, Drop-Scary Bear....
> |
> Dig a little deeper.  How do you know, from just observing the outward physical form, whether it's athletically (physical moves re-actively practiced over & over) performed OR is it mentally disciplined (the conscious mind deliberately exercising exacting control of the whole body at all times)?
> ...



You are going to punch hard and on target without getting punched. Then whatever you are doing works. Whether it is mental or physical. See it repeated enough and you will find a trend.

I mean what am i missing here?


----------



## drop bear (Feb 19, 2015)

chinto said:


> not in Okinawan styles. also the emphasis is on the body as that is the quicker way to stop that person being able to fight. if he can not breath he can not fight!  you can fight still if your determined, with most of your facial bones broken with little reduction in your ability to fight comparatively.



You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?

There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?
> 
> There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.


You will notice that center mass is a main target for gun owners, as well.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Feb 20, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You will notice that center mass is a main target for gun owners, as well.



It seems rather pointless to compare the impact of a fist with that of a bullet...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It seems rather pointless to compare the impact of a fist with that of a bullet...
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


I was actually talking about target availability, but I will remember not to compare the impact. Thank you.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> @drop bear, Drop-Scary Bear....
> |
> Dig a little deeper.  How do you know, from just observing the outward physical form, whether it's athletically (physical moves re-actively practiced over & over) performed OR is it mentally disciplined (the conscious mind deliberately exercising exacting control of the whole body at all times)?
> ...




I assume you have decided to ignore me, whether it's because I dared to ask a question, dared to ask for proof or perhaps because you found out I'm female I don't know no do I care. 
I'm sure you believe your way is the best and only way and that you are keeping some ancient flame alive with your belief of mental karate however while I will gladly admit I know far less than I would like I do believe that my style of doing karate is practical and effective, I don't ask for it to be more than that. I don't want a spiritual belief system from my martial arts, I don't want training in mental gymnastics, I want my karate to be something I can use to defend myself.
We also train MMA fighters and certainly outside the US there is a lot of karate in MMA as there is in kick boxing. You aren't unique in putting karate into MMA at all.
The above quote is a rather odd thing to contemplate while someone is attacking you, I wouldn't recommend standing there thinking deeply while they throw a punch at you. Unless of course you are about to tell us you can do no touch KOs?
I do realise you will now assume I'm some sort of heretic but hey I'm at least a heretic who can defend themselves and others if attacked, I know from  experience I can and that will do for me.
Oh and 're-actively'  ?


----------



## Zero (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?
> 
> There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.


Chinto has a valid point, if you are used to the hits, and noting it may play havoc with your vision, you can go on with a broken nose, broken cheek bones etc.  Sure you get a good rocking to the jaw from most angles or to the temple you'll likely go down but otherwise your face can be a mess and you can go on.

More to the point, aside from the facial areas, a lot of the head is an incredibly hard/dense target to hit, parts of the skull are far harder and more resilient than your knuckles, you can come off worse when striking these and these areas, ie forehead, can soak up a lot of damage.

This is appreciated even by top boxers with gloves on.  The great smoking Jo Fraser himself (and also possessing one hell of a hard noggin that caused the likes of Ali considerable trouble) said he preferred to work on and break the body down and it was his view that the body, however well conditioned, was a much softer and vulnerable target.  He said something along the lines of the following in some interview: "hurt the body and watch what happens..."


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?
> 
> There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.


What are you saying? Head Hunting isn't a good self defense strategy.


----------



## Cirdan (Feb 20, 2015)

About striking the head and the skull being more dense than your knuckles, I often prefer striking with open hands. I practice my open hand strikes far more than anyone else I know to the point people are starting to call me open-hands Rune. Fists are great of course but a shotai or tettsui are often better against really hard targets in my opinion.


----------



## Zero (Feb 20, 2015)

Cirdan said:


> About striking the head and the skull being more dense than your knuckles, I often prefer striking with open hands. I practice my open hand strikes far more than anyone else I know to the point people are starting to call me open-hands Rune. Fists are great of course but a shotai or tettsui are often better against really hard targets in my opinion.


Agreed, and even if not "better", in my view the risk of damage to self is far less.


----------



## Zero (Feb 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I've been working with a Master at another branch who is interested in applying traditional karate for MMA.  He's been pretty much on board with my input.  Focus mitts & pads, >> not included.  The majority who want to use these training aids--that's up to them.  I put on a demonstration breaking boards within what is typically a non-fighting an "air punching" exercise.  I challenged the class to do the same,   Not a single bag / pad puncher could match what I did....including the instructor.  I got that way by doing the traditional karate curriculum-no sport equipment assist and yes, a lot of "air punching."  It's the foundation that gives rise to karate power, not the test....


Just out of interest, to build up to your level at the board breaking, in addition to your air punching drills have you also been practicing on hitting the boards and breaking and therefore conditioning had been occurring?  I take it you didn't just go up in front of the class and break boards solely on your air punching but that you have trained, even on your own, at breaking board with strikes? 

You mention in addition to air punching you have been focusing on the "traditional karate curriculum, no sport equipment".  If that is anything like what we do in goju ryu - particularly the more traditional focused members - then that will condition your bare hands far better for breaking than most sport styles or other training.   That involves makiwara work, either with rope padding or not on the board, sand bag or metal filling work on the knuckles (and palms and finger tips), hours of bare knuckle push ups etc.  I am not surprised the "sports" guys in your club didn't want to or could not match you in hitting the boards.  Seems obvious?

I would agree that pad work in itself is generally for a different thing and is not designed for power work.  But that is why the God of Boxing invented the heavy heavy bag.  I have nothing against breaking and breaking exhibitions in itself but I do think they are a distraction if you are focusing on fighting (particularly only having so much time in the day).  I also think that the heavy bag is a far better tool for working on strike power and strength in the context of training for a fight with a moving and resisting opponent, rather than board breaking.  In addition, the heavy bag has so much more in common with the human body you will be punching than compared to say a brick or boards...

Again, it's impressive for what it is but it's the old cliché (but which is also very true) of "boards don't hit back".  The set up time and position for impressive breaks, and even simple breaks on thick non-commercial boards, has simply no reflection on or place in a fight situation.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> What are you saying? Head Hunting isn't a good self defense strategy.



It is not really a comparison of damage. Because we would be comparing a shot that knocks you out to a shot that debilitates you through broken ribs. What we have to look at is the likelihood that you will achieve one or the other.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> Agreed, and even if not "better", in my view the risk of damage to self is far less.



  Most people i know have broken their hands with body shots. I wonder if there are stats on that?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Most people i know have broken their hands with body shots. I wonder if there are stats on that?


Your friends should learn how to use their elbows.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Your friends should learn how to use their elbows.



Nobody only throws elbows. You would put yourself at too much of a disadvantage.


----------



## Zero (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Most people i know have broken their hands with body shots. I wonder if there are stats on that?


I would certainly like to see those stats!! "Most people you know have broken their hands with body shots"?  Surely not most, I take it you mean you know a few or a couple that have broken hands when doing this?   What style of fighter are they?
I am not proud about it but I have broken a guy's rib in competition and not damaged my hand.  I also had my own rib pushed out of my chest when the ligament was stretched when I took a shocker of a blow to the side of the torso.  It was bad for me but I knew the guy I was fighting, he was a friend and trainer, and his hand was not hurt.

The ribs are strong but they are far more vulnerable and do not have the same structure as the head bones, they simply do not have the cohesiveness or support of the head bones.


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> I would certainly like to see those stats!! "Most people you know have broken their hands with body shots"?  Surely not most, I take it you mean you know a few or a couple that have broken hands when doing this?   What style of fighter are they?
> I am not proud about it but I have broken a guy's rib in competition and not damaged my hand.  I also had my own rib pushed out of my chest when the ligament was stretched when I took a shocker of a blow to the side of the torso.  It was bad for me but I knew the guy I was fighting, he was a friend and trainer, and his hand was not hurt.
> 
> The ribs are strong but they are far more vulnerable and do not have the same structure as the head bones, they simply do not have the cohesiveness or support of the head bones.



They hit elbows. And generally you are really booming that body shot off.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 20, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I was actually talking about target availability, but I will remember not to compare the impact. Thank you.



Even so...
Put your arms in a good guard and a punch probably won't reach center mass. A bullet probably will. 
Center mass is still a better choice than the periphery, though. Most of the time. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Zero (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> They hit elbows. And generally you are really booming that body shot off.


Ah, I see, they connected with their fist to the elbow not the body (as in torso) itself.  Was this kyokoshin with bare knuckles or were they gloved, and meaning boxing gloves?


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> Ah, I see, they connected with their fist to the elbow not the body (as in torso) itself.  Was this kyokoshin with bare knuckles or were they gloved, and meaning boxing gloves?



boxing gloves. I am not sure if the karate guys have the same issues.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2015)

chinto said:


> to respond to some one who asked about face, and head punching, its there but the emphisis in most styles is on the body because if you brake ribs or damage the liver they can NOT continue to breath well or fight. you



I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who _are_ trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.


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## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who _are_ trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.




I can recommend superglue if when hit in the head your crown comes unstuck on your front tooth, dentist may not like it but until I stop doing martial arts or really do manage to evade *every* punch to my head it will do.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Your question is the right question so thanks for that



Cool, looking forward to reading your answer.



ShotoNoob said:


> those that characterize kihon karate practice as "punching air" are looking at only the outward expression of the physical movement of the student / practitioner.



If you re-read my original post, you'll note I never denigrated kata. I did note that the effectiveness or lack thereof was going to be connected to the practitioners understanding and mental focus. (Based on what you've written, I would assume that you agree with this.)

Likewise, Tez is certainly not denigrating kata. She's a long term karateka who is a fierce defender of the value in kata.



ShotoNoob said:


> And that include anyone who claims to be insulted.



I hope my earlier post clarified why it is insulting to refer to an experienced, dedicated karateka as a "karateka" (in quotes)?



ShotoNoob said:


> unless that karateka has achieved the kind of mind-body unity provided by proper traditional karate training. Good muscular coordination is not what I'm talking about.



Perhaps we could have a more productive discussion if we made sure we were speaking the same language. Can you clarify exactly what you mean by mind-body unity in observable real world terms? If an individual has achieved mind-body unity, what exactly are they able to accomplish in a fight that is different from what someone without mind-body unity can do?



ShotoNoob said:


> BTW: The Master I am working with on Karate for MMA has been practicing for decades. He's more knowledgeable on the technical aspects & traditional karate curriculum. I bring certain conceptual principles & link to actual application. His class isn't very popular for a lot of reasons, the mental discipline required a big one. We intend to focus on the black-belt level foundation kihon, kata & traditional kumite exercises rather that the conventional free sparring regimen found in MMA. Hope that helps in the explanation department.



Cool. I'd love to hear details on that program. However, it doesn't answer the question that Tez and I have been asking: "_How is punching focus mitts counter-productive towards developing kime, mind-body unity, precision, or internal strength in a way that punching air or punching the makiwara is not?"_



ShotoNoob said:


> BTW2: Used the link to your blog and in reading the second to latest post, I think see some of your concepts of martial arts training. As I said, there is a fundamental difference there with mine and I will say your reasoning is quite prevalent among competition karate. I have to do some reading there...



I love to get feedback (critical or otherwise) on any of my blog posts. Feel free to PM me or leave a comment on the blog with any commentary you have on any of it (assuming it's not relevant to the current discussion thread).

You're talking about my Road Maps entry, right? I'm not sure I see a much relevance to the current thread, but if you see a connection, please point it out.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 20, 2015)

Perhaps we could decide what we mean by a traditional karate syllabus?
What is Traditional Karate Iain Abernethy


----------



## chinto (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You Think? You have been punched in the head hard?
> 
> There is validity to body shots. But they are not a super weapon.


Yes I have.. ever had a cracked rib?


----------



## chinto (Feb 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I can understand and respect a preference for using body punches rather than head shots. Where I consider it a weakness is if you don't regularly spar with people who _are_ trying to punch you in the head, since that is one of the most common real world attacks. If you don't train to deal with skilled punches coming at your head, then your defenses are going to be sub-par.


I am not avicating not hitting the head, or blocking punches to the head. I am saying the head can take quite a lot of damage...the skull is heavy bone to protect the brain...


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

chinto said:


> Yes I have.. ever had a cracked rib?



No i have been pretty lucky. Mine just don't seem to go.

But regardless it is not that you cant put someone down with body shots. It is that it happens less often than head shots.


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## chinto (Feb 20, 2015)

But of course you train to protect yourself from blows to any where you can prevent taking damage..  in a SD situation the fight will last seconds not minutes!


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

chinto said:


> But of course you train to protect yourself from blows to any where you can prevent taking damage..  in a SD situation the fight will last seconds not minutes!



I am sure you will last longer than that. Don't underrate yourself.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Nobody only throws elbows. You would put yourself at too much of a disadvantage.


You really should take this show on the road. You are killing me.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

chinto said:


> Okinawan Karate does not have better kicks then hands. it has good kicks and good hands.  to respond to some one who asked about face, and head punching, its there but the emphisis in most styles is on the body because if you brake ribs or damage the liver they can NOT continue to breath well or fight. you Can fight with most of the bones in your face broken.


|
I never got the thinking that traditional karate somehow didn't punch to the head.  Kihon strikes, kihon kata & kihon kumite exercises all emphasize punches @ the head.   Standard traditional karate curriculum, IMO.....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I said that you used scare quotes when referring to Tez as a "karateka." The term _scare quotes _has nothing to do with being scary. It's when you put quotation marks around something, not because you are actually quoting anybody, but because you are indicating that you don't consider the words inside the quotes to be accurate. Used in this context, when you refer to _all the "karateka" like Tez, _it conveys roughly the same meaning as _all the *so-called* karateka like Tez.
> _
> If this wasn't what you intended to communicate, then it might be a good idea to clarify.


|
I hardly know the real credentials just reading some posts.  I meant to convey my impression on the comment.  Simple.
|
Also, see my reply today to Tez (whomever) on my view of her approach to karate....

P.S. Still reading your blog link.  You've put a lot of work into that....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> It is not really a comparison of damage. Because we would be comparing a shot that knocks you out to a shot that debilitates you through broken ribs. What we have to look at is the likelihood that you will achieve one or the other.


|
Hard contact to the head is obviously dangerous to the brain.  That's why traditional karate prohibits contact to the head in training, as a general rule.  Blows to various parts of the body can be effective, the head is the clear target for certain effect.  That's what everyone believes where I train.....


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## geezer (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> ...But regardless it is not that you cant put someone down with body shots. It is that it happens less often than head shots.



Great argument guys. Now for a moment of complete randomness:

If head shots and body shots are both effective ways to stop an attacker cold, why is it that when angry, people always threaten to _"kick your butt"?_ ...Hardly a vulnerable target...

OK, got that out. Now please carry on.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> 1. I assume you have decided to ignore me, whether it's because I dared to ask a question, dared to ask for proof or perhaps because you found out I'm female I don't know no do I care.
> |
> 2. I'm sure you believe your way is the best and only way and that you are keeping some ancient flame alive with your belief of mental karate however while I will gladly admit I know far less than I would like I do believe that my style of doing karate is practical and effective, I don't ask for it to be more than that. I don't want a spiritual belief system from my martial arts, I don't want training in mental gymnastics, I want my karate to be something I can use to defend myself.
> |
> ...


|
1. Ignore a "Sr. Grandmaster," NO Waaay!  Actually 2 of 3 of my best karate instructors have been woman.  I'm surprised after several decades of karate training, you haven't aged enough to become a women.  Strange....
|
2. YES, I think in a broad way you've hit the nail on the head here. I'll expand @ the end of the reply.
|
3. Wow, I think our "date" is a disaster.  We're  @ dinner and I just discovered there's only room for one @ the table.  Please excuse me, I'll find another table....  Should I still drive you home later (er, allow you to drive us to your home in my car?)?
|
4. Couldn't agree more.  Having you thinking, particularly deeply, is a mistake.  And I feel like I just experienced the "no-touch" KO....OUCH!!!  Pity the poor sod who gets fresh with you.....  Had know idea British girls were so rough....
|
Summary: I think when discussing the practice of karate intelligently, we should separate the training into three progressive levels of intensity. (1) the casual practitioner who goes to the dojo 2 days a week for an hour class to get some disciplined exercise and very rudimentary self defense. (2) The serious sport karate competitor who also want some good self defense skills.  <<That's you Tez, IMO.>>   (3) The karate traditionalist who seeks to develop the human potential (spelled out in many a karate manual) through the traditional training methods.  I'm here.
|
For illustration, the decent boxer will usually slaughter the Group 1 karateka.  Against Group 2 karateka, the good boxer will be more evenly matched yet I believe the boxer will have the edge on average.  Talking about Group 3, the karateka who has trained sufficiently will be able to handle the boxer using the mental discipline inherent in the traditional karate base.  Should that mental discipline slip or be below par, the karateka will be in the fight of his life against a skilled or expert boxer....  THAT's my experience....
|
I see I'm a boring dinner date.... so I'll just go now....  Take care.


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## yak sao (Feb 20, 2015)

geezer said:


> ....... why is it that when angry, people always threaten to _"kick your butt"?_ ...*Hardly a vulnerable target*...



Sure it is....it's already cracked..........


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Hard contact to the head is obviously dangerous to the brain.  That's why traditional karate prohibits contact to the head in training, as a general rule.  Blows to various parts of the body can be effective, the head is the clear target for certain effect.  That's what everyone believes where I train.....



Ok lets try this. These over in seconds street fights. How many are finished with body shots?


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

Zero said:


> 1. Just out of interest, to build up to your level at the board breaking, in addition to your air punching drills have you also been practicing on hitting the boards and breaking and therefore conditioning had been occurring?  I take it you didn't just go up in front of the class and break boards solely on your air punching but that you have trained, even on your own, at breaking board with strikes?
> 
> 2. You mention in addition to air punching you have been focusing on the "traditional karate curriculum, no sport equipment".  If that is anything like what we do in goju ryu - particularly the more traditional focused members - then that will condition your bare hands far better for breaking than most sport styles or other training.   That involves makiwara work, either with rope padding or not on the board, sand bag or metal filling work on the knuckles (and palms and finger tips), hours of bare knuckle push ups etc.  I am not surprised the "sports" guys in your club didn't want to or could not match you in hitting the boards.  Seems obvious?
> 
> ...


WOW, that's an intense reply.... Props many...
|
1. Conditioning of the hand is part of the traditional karate curriculum, though often neglected.  We do not have the makiwara board @ our school but we do have a wood floor.  Putting a towel or other padding down suffices.  Can do the same with a wood paneled wall I have at home.
|
2. NO, my style is much more elemental than the Okinawan karates, which are comparatively more sophisticated than the Japanese karates, IMHO.  Our schools always insists on "bare-knuckle" pushups, never palms.  On the sport karate types, many can break the boards.  Physical strength alone can break boards.  It's the kind of strength I used to break the boards (little body mechanics such a hip rotation, no twisting the body and rising up on the toes like a boxer, no leaning into the strike or exaggerated up & down windups, zero body momentum); as well as  the fighting form I broke them with.  A projection of power rather than athletics movement....I'm largely stationary at the moment of the break.
|
3. Disagree here, although heavy bag training is acceptable IMO.  The whole concept of board breaking is that you're able to apply pinpoint precision with both speed and whole body power thus break the opponent's body parts.  You take the heavy bag, I'll just knock your teeth out.... Clear enough?
|
4. EXACTLY.  The board breaking doesn't  work for you because when you practice it's just a physical gimmick unrelated to the true foundational skills of traditional karate.  You don't really understand the significance of breaking boards and you have plenty of company at my dojo...  So don't feel alone.
|
Hope I did justice to your great reply.  I tried....


----------



## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok lets try this. These over in seconds street fights. How many are finished with body shots?


|
Don't do street fighting.  Two students ganged up on me one day at the dojo.  Knocked the one down with a backfist to the face.  He got up and I knocked him down again--backfist to the face.  He remained on the floor.  Second, guy, a former military police officer rapidly back pedaled as I came at him methodically blocking every strike or kick.  He made sure he didn't get hit.  Or was it I stopped short of contact?  I'll let you decide.
|
NOTE: Of course, both naturally bigger & stronger physically than I....

IOW, I like going to the head.... hurt the enough head, the body function becomes disabled....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Cool, looking forward to reading your answer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


|
I've got to get something to eat before I tackle that response!
|
On kata, just let me say it's the comprehensive traditional karate exercise.  Kata is what makes  the traditional karateka a superior fighter.  Kata, it's value,  is generally underestimated by all, including among those @ my dojo...


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 20, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps we could decide what we mean by a traditional karate syllabus?
> What is Traditional Karate Iain Abernethy


|
My understanding of IA's work is that it is more akin to the Okinawan karate styles, those particular principles.  Very effective applications, very strong karate.
|
My karate is much more basic.  It's the mental strength, the complete discipline of mind over body that propels kihon karate technique & application into fighting sophistication.  It's the foundation that powers traditional karate, complexity in application is secondary....
|
Boxers & Muay Thai beware.   My hands are to be feared over my feet.


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## Drose427 (Feb 20, 2015)

I dont know if id ever say body shots are generally more effective than head shots, but I will say this. I've trained all across the Martial Arts Spectrum, personally training in Boxing, Wrestling, and TSD. While sparring and working with military guys, MMA guys, other TMA guys, just a wide variety of styles and contact level. But, _nothing_ has ever dropped me or affected my ability to fight as fast as a good liver shot. No elbow, kick to the jaw, nothing. But, I've been in gloves since I was little. So my jaws probably a little more conditioned than your average joe whos trying to start fights at the block party. A head-shot hurts, it aches, things get brighter for a second, yoou get a little dizzy, we've all been there. But a liver shot just makes your body shut down, and it hurts like all heck.

While I dont know if its _more_ effective than headhunting, and these matches definitely didnt end in seconds, there have been many professional bouts ended from body shots. Usually the liver is what actually gets hit. For people who havent taken a good liver shot, its hard to really understand how bad it actually feels. But it's definitely up the on the "potential fight enders list."


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## drop bear (Feb 20, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> My understanding of IA's work is that it is more akin to the Okinawan karate styles, those particular principles.  Very effective applications, very strong karate.
> |
> My karate is much more basic.  It's the mental strength, the complete discipline of mind over body that propels kihon karate technique & application into fighting sophistication.  It's the foundation that powers traditional karate, complexity in application is secondary....
> ...



You have the edge because you have a monopoly on mental toughness?

Go fight a guy from an eastern block country.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

drop bear said:


> You have the edge because you have a monopoly on mental toughness?
> 
> Go fight a guy from an eastern block country.


|
Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude.  Commonly found in sport fighters & killers.  Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time.  It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive.
|
The ancient karate masters recognized the important of developing the mental strength as I've tried broadly to describe it.  The originators of the traditional martial arts were thinking men, not "tough guys."  For practical purposes, these thinking men applied their thinking about how to fully develop the human potential.  They then applied that learning to being able to open up a can of wooopass on those tough guys that would beat up on those poor, pitiful bookworms.  YES, it was the mental strength that powered their wooopass.  Go fight one if you don't feel the way of do.  I already know how hard it is to take on a  very dangerous opponent.
|
As my first & best martial arts instructor said; "You wanna get you head beat in?"  Your statement seems to me like you'd like to get your head beat in, instead of doing  the WORK to investigate what I've proposed.  Go ahead, go to Okinawa & challenge some of the karate masters, take your eastern-block friend[?] with you.
|
I'm not sure how I fit in giving an explanation of how I approach traditional karate.  Just follow your own advice, that's what will really prove your point....  Please don't ask me to do your work for you .......  If I was from the eastern block, I'd tell you to go yourself.
|
I'm a poor dinner date, I know.....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It seems rather pointless to compare the impact of a fist with that of a bullet...
> 
> 
> Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


|
See the picture of the Master? in your avatar breaking the cement blocks.  He's bending over , leaning into the strike & dropping his body weight to do the break.  No,No.  I do the board breaking from standard karate front stances generally with no overt body movement other than that to perform a front punch or block.  I call on the body strength isometrically drawn from inside, not body mass, momentum or body in motion, etc
|
Can't improve on your quote.....


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> I'm surprised after several decades of karate training, you haven't aged enough to become a women. Strange....





ShotoNoob said:


> Having you thinking, particularly deeply, is a mistake.



Really?


----------



## Touch Of Death (Feb 21, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Really?


The Kool-aid is bitter with this one.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> The Kool-aid is bitter with this one.



This one wouldn't go near the Kool-aid, it's not kosher.


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## jezr74 (Feb 21, 2015)

I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.



More like Peter Sellers in the Goons to me.




ShotoNoob said:


> Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude. Commonly found in sport fighters & killers. Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time. It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive




Mental toughness as described is hardly the preserve of killers, it actually takes little to be able to kill in a moment of anger. mental toughness is found in many people in many situations, it is something that allows people to survive the worst conditions. POWs in the Japanese camps had mental toughness to survive as did concentration camp survivors, mothers fighting to be bring their children up properly in slums and ghettos have mental toughness, I could go on, I'm sure everyone knows of someone with mental toughness who impressed them.
Mental discipline is also something that is not unique to specific people, it's not even unique to martial artists.
Pathos isn't 'caring for others' at all. Far from it, it is the pitying of people something that can be condescending in fact and unpleasant.

So...'traditional' karate, what style, what lineage is Shotonoob advocating? Shotokan?


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude.  Commonly found in sport fighters & killers.  Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time.  It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive.
> |
> The ancient karate masters recognized the important of developing the mental strength as I've tried broadly to describe it.  The originators of the traditional martial arts were thinking men, not "tough guys."  For practical purposes, these thinking men applied their thinking about how to fully develop the human potential.  They then applied that learning to being able to open up a can of wooopass on those tough guys that would beat up on those poor, pitiful bookworms.  YES, it was the mental strength that powered their wooopass.  Go fight one if you don't feel the way of do.  I already know how hard it is to take on a  very dangerous opponent.
> ...



They did. Russia dominated. 
Best Karate Kyokushin Russia vs World


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

drop bear said:


> They did. Russia dominated.
> Best Karate Kyokushin Russia vs World


|
I know the Kyo practitioners have a reputation for being tough.  I'm not a fan of the Kyokushin karate style myself.  In judging the "best" style in application, I think it critical to assess who is properly preparing to be a professional fighter and who is not.  That will account for much of the outcome, versus just relying on style labels....
|
I think it's good & healthy ( for the martial art of karate) for such events to be sanctioned.  There's certainly a lesson in the Russians and the Kyo competitors basically taking the tournament.  We (me, everyone) should take a look at the event & review what happened, what lead to the outcome.  Congradulations always to the victors, including the sole Shotokan fighter, and a nod of respect to all participants.
|
a GREAT idea for a thread, NO?  Could be posted under MMA, karate, competition forum topics.  Would love to see you do that....
|
Two general comments from my experience in local competition.
|
1. I went up against a kickboxer type who is a senior belt @ my school, feared for his aggressiveness & toughness by most of the school.  Wiped him out on the 1st exchange.  Of course the real story is that he was a "sport fighter" who was successful at pushing his aggression on physically weaker opponents (such as me) of all ranks.  Of course by the traditional karate curriculum per se,  he was mediocre.  So  that's why I won.  After the winning exchange, the instructor continued the kumite for testing purposes--the kickboxer-type was never able to land a kick or punch, including on my DEFENSE-ONLY strategy from that point.
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2. Though I personally don't adopt the KYO style, I do believe in certain of it' concepts as critically important.  Be prepared for actual fighting.  Be well conditioned.  Be prepared to fight long & hard against several opponents.  Repeat your training regiment over & over & over & over. Even the YIELDING Japanese martial art of Judo advocates all these.  But no style like KYO makes a bigger point about it with the original idea of a 100-man kumite.
|
I used that concept to get a fellow student out of his training "rut."  The whole concept of doing something a 100 times requires dedication & discipline.  When you actually focus on what you are doing, then the results blossom.  It did for him.
|
All styles of traditional karate trains to prevail in a physical conflict.  Personally, I don't care for Shotokan either.  Yet I firmly believe a Shotokan stylist who trains to the underlying traditional karate principles & the Shotokan style can & should prevail over a KYO competitor.  One did, reaffirming I may be correct.
|
In closing, the Russian KYO's won.  That's a fact.  I consider my self a Pro-Am fighter, not a pro.  Should I face a Kyo, pro or not, I can tell you my strategy.  The one the aggressive senior belt experienced.  The same approach one-of-two-dojo bullies received--on the floor hurt or if you get up you know you're going to be hurt AGAIN.   It's very Okinawan in principle & concept.  In a couple of moves the opponent is done.  That's it.  IMHO, the Okinawan Master's knew what they were doing.
|
Good continued fortunes at the next tournament....


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> More like Peter Sellers in the Goons to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


|
My style is an offshoot of Shotokan.  I personally don't train Shotokan but in many respects train like the Shotokan curriculum advocates.  I do like Shotokan as a means to study traditional karate principles.  I feel very strong Ginchin Funakoshi along with his Okinawan cohorts did an outstanding job there in presenting traditional karate to the entire world.
|
On your mental toughness discourse, I'm sure you resonate with like-minded.  I have no qualms about referring all the dropouts from the Branch Master's MMA class to your dojo.  We're just pitiful bookworms to them too.
|
Thanks for the workout (mild).  No smiley face [either].
|
P.S. I think ALL the traditional karate styles are highly effective when the traditional, underlying principles are observed.  I really do like Shotokan as a discussion style, since it is so popular and emphasized the basics so much.  The curriculum is very detailed & explanative compared to certain other styles, some of which have a lot of complexity which makes getting at the underlying fundamentals problematic.  I think studying Shotokan yet observing it's Okinawan roots is a very good way for many if not most to do.  It's not what I did.  I believe a true Shotokan Master is a real force to be reckoned with--no thanks at my level.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

"WHY DOES KARATE HAVE BETTER KICKS THAN HANDS?"
|
A great forum question and one we see played out all the time on so many an occasion.
|
Truth be told (IMHO), the observation that karate kicks are better than hands results from inadequate traditional karate training.  I attempted to set the framework for the answer in my response to Tez talking about the three progressive levels of karate practice: Casual, Sport-Competitor,  Adherence to Traditional Principles (regardless of style).
|
The lesson from the Okinawan Masters is the hands should be relied upon most, with the legs for support & mobility while secondary & supplementary in tactical application.  Makes sense from a practical, evolutionary perspective.
|
Karate hands are devastating performed at a high level.  At the casual level, the naturally coordinated boxer-type may well run over you & your 'karate hands.'


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

jezr74 said:


> I don't know why, but when I read ShotoNoob posts, it's in the voice of George Takei.


|
+1 (in principle).


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## Tez3 (Feb 21, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> 
> |
> On your mental toughness discourse, I'm sure you resonate with like-minded.  I have no qualms about referring all the dropouts from the Branch Master's MMA class to your dojo.  We're just pitiful bookworms to them too.
> ...



You do know that some of your sentences make no sense don't you? Who is Branch Master? and 'Pitiful book worms'? you are talking to yourself I suspect, because I have no idea what you are talking about. Why are you putting an I between all your paragraphs? What workout? you really are being obtuse.
Send me any student you like, I'm not too proud to try and help anyone, I despise no one for attempting martial arts.
I originally asked a question about a statement you made, in return you made a mistake over the forum customs and were rude to me several times which is against the rules here as well as being far from your moral stance. style bashing is also against the rules. You seem not to like being questioned and seem to want to present yourself as a Guru rather than a fellow martial artist. You come up with a lot of what you think are put downs but I'm afraid they speak more of you not me.
I think you need to look to your history as regards traditional karate and Shotokan. I'm not going to get into an argument with you about this as I really don't understand your sentences... such as the last one, what does _'no thanks at my level_ ' mean? Perhaps English isn't your first language and you wouldn't be so rude in your own, perhaps too you wouldn't assume you know anything about me or other posters on here.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 21, 2015)

Ladies and Gentlemen,

While some members here may be hard to understand and or hard to swallow, we as a community need to work together and and not become a pack and pick on people just because someone is different. 

Some of the comments posted here, I could report and the posters might believe they were being funny. Yet, in reality they were being just as  insulting as the posts they are commenting on. 

If you have a problem report it and do not add to the issue yourself. 

Please. As an old staff member I would issue a series of warning and or infractions to many within this thread and not just for the poster that people seem to have a problem with. 

I am asking that everyone understand that if they respond in jest and or equal anger and feelings they are now also at risk of the system finding them at fault as well. 

Also, note, that threats on this board is not tolerated. Be they threats in posts or in private messages or in reports to the staff. That is the easiest way for people to find themselves on the outside looking in for a short or long period or even permanently. 

Ask questions. Yes. 
Respond and ask for clarification. Yes. 
Replying in frustration or anger or even in jest or sarcasm is not always the best approach. 

Just a friendly Play nice I guess.


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## ShotoNoob (Feb 21, 2015)

Rich Parsons said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> While some members here may be hard to understand and or hard to swallow, we as a community need to work together and and not become a pack and pick on people just because someone is different.
> 
> ...


|
I believe the great value of a forum is to challenge each other's thinking.  One of the key perspectives I meant to add is the level of intensity, of progression with which one practices karate.  Certainly this figures into the T on whether karate hands are good, or better than feet.  Otherwise, we speak to vague generalizations that hold for Karateka A but not for Karateka B.
|
On not understanding, I meant to also bring in the perspective that all traditional karate styles can be highly effective.  While one poster advanced Kyo as a dominantly effective style, I acknowledged some of the strengths of KYO from my own experience.  I also brought in my perspective that a Shotokan Master would in my mind be a very formidable opponent against other's style, and certainly including me.  Please explain how respecting & finding the value across the different styles of karate is 'insulting' or 'angry'?  How is having such an open, broad & probing opinion into what makes karate 'tick' an issue?
|
I also suggested some 2 commenters create T's about discussion points which came out in the course of the conversation.
|
I'm here to go beyond statements such as I've come across elsewhere that conclude that KYO practitioners can't succeed in MMA because KYO Kumite rules forbid punches to the head.  Ridiculous, yet this a common belief among the MMA community.
I
I'm ready to move on to the next topic....


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## jks9199 (Feb 21, 2015)

Rich Parsons said:


> Ladies and Gentlemen,
> 
> While some members here may be hard to understand and or hard to swallow, we as a community need to work together and and not become a pack and pick on people just because someone is different.
> 
> ...


Well said and very valid. I'm involved in this thread so not moderating it unless the need becomes desperate. But I agree with Rich; let's remember that we're supposed to be a friendly forum  

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I'm here to go beyond statements such as I've come across elsewhere that conclude that KYO practitioners can't succeed in MMA because KYO Kumite rules forbid punches to the head. Ridiculous, yet this a common belief among the MMA community.



Depends what you mean by kyo guys succeeding. Yes they could be good mma fighters. But their skills would need work.

I can out box my local kyo champion. I cant out wrestle him because he puts work into it. And he would end me pretty quickly kickboxing.

Bit he focuses on what he wants to do. Which for him isnt face punching.


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## drop bear (Feb 21, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Mental "toughness" is an ego-based attitude. Commonly found in sport fighters & killers. Mental discipline is about consciously thinking about doing the right thing, the right way, at the right time. It also involves some dimensions of ethos (ethics) and pathos (caring for others), what differentiates us from animals psychologically, animals being very tough & ruthless when they need to survive.



kind of a semantic difference. But lets suggest that considering mental toughness requires exposure to pain and loss. And that is the opposite of where an ego fighter wants to be. It is not really an ego based attitude.

Just a little background on sports fighters. They train for a fifteen twenty minute fight starting 12 weeks before. At which point they are strictly controlling their diet. Not drinking. Not smoking. Training 6 to 7 days a week. 3 hours a day. Almost all their social activity goes out the window.

Now this is dedication to doing the right thing the right way at the right time all the time.


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## K-man (Feb 21, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> But I agree with Rich; let's remember that we're supposed to be a friendly forum.


Mmm! I think that ranks alongside, "Elvis has left the building"!


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## RowdyAz (Jun 22, 2015)

Zero said:


> In principle I agree, it's just from personal experience in executing punch strikes like a hook (with either horizontal or vertical fist) to the head, in honesty I am more connecting with the majority of my knuckles and I am not connecting with a wrist alignment as often seen in goju ryu punches.
> 
> For body and torso rips/hooks I can definitely get the major two knuckles worked into the ribs etc but for head strikes this alignment does not work for me so well...throw some yourself next time training, or maybe you can answer off the bat now, and let me know your take on this and how your mechanics work?  Would be keen to know.


Wing chun use the bottom three knuckles. I find as long as it connects it's a good punch


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## RowdyAz (Jun 22, 2015)

drop bear said:


> kind of a semantic difference. But lets suggest that considering mental toughness requires exposure to pain and loss. And that is the opposite of where an ego fighter wants to be. It is not really an ego based attitude.
> 
> Just a little background on sports fighters. They train for a fifteen twenty minute fight starting 12 weeks before. At which point they are strictly controlling their diet. Not drinking. Not smoking. Training 6 to 7 days a week. 3 hours a day. Almost all their social activity goes out the window.
> 
> Now this is dedication to doing the right thing the right way at the right time all the time.


As Bas Rutten put it. He used to push himself to the limit once a day for an hour at full pace, his reasoning was if he could last that he could last the much shorter bout.  On the other hand Frank Shamrock would train 6 to 8 hours a day to perform the same task.  Both legends two different mind sets.


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