# WC Sun Punch and Hsing-i Beng Chuan



## geezer (Jul 7, 2011)

I've never trained Hsing-i but I thought I'd post these clips so others like Xue who have a broader background could comment. First check out this guy. Is he doing pure Hsing-i or is it mixed with WC. His punching and stepping sure look... er... "Chun-ish":







And now, with a very different feel, check out how this dude in his white PJs links his footwork to his punching. The punch is synchronized with the forward stepping movement of the rear foot, so while the punch appears relaxed, it hits with the combined inertia of his full-body... even though he is (mostly) back-weighted the whole time. This looks a lot like the way we step, often linking the "sun-punch" with an advancing step to get maximum body power. Also check out the low front-thrust kick after he turns and changes direction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nYkocZCvucw&playnext=1&list=PL664242660AE514B4


Now here's another clip that's a bit more physical that also illustrates the same linking of step and punch although with a slightly different execution of the steps:






Hsing-i and WC have very different origins, philosophies, and training methods, but from these clips it looks like they have a surprising amount in common... at least the in applying the "sun punch" and "beng chuan". And those front kicks? Also pretty similar to what we do. Any thoughts?


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## oaktree (Jul 7, 2011)

First we have to have the feeling of the fist of Xingyiquan.

Beng Quan movement is like an arrow that shoots in. But with Xingyiquan your intent is to drive thru your opponent. You are not punching him you are sticking your spear thru him with one hand then pulling it out and the recoil with your other hand like a spear to stab thru him again. Also when doing Beng Quan there is like a coiling back to cock the fist then explode. So the first video to me, looks like chain punching the intent is what differences it between chain punching and being Beng Quan. The second video you see more of the power needed to generate Beng Quan. Beng Quan is in my opinion suppose to be a one shot to the liver with a recoil strike to the face as he falls down.  You will find similarities with Xingiquan and other arts but the difference is the intent: Xingyiquan fighters don't want to punch you they want to punch thru you! They want to use one punch to stop the fight not many punches. A xingyiquan fighter has mack- 10 trucks on his hands not fists!


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## Eric_H (Jul 7, 2011)

They are driven by very different mechanics, but not that different in strategy.

But what do you expect when both systems were heavily influenced by spear fighting? 

FWIW, Yin Style Bagua had something similar as well in the monkey part of the system.


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2011)

oaktree said:


> First we have to have the feeling of the fist of Xingyiquan... Beng Quan movement is like an arrow that shoots in. But with Xingyiquan your intent is to drive thru your opponent...You will find similarities with Xingiquan and other arts but the difference is the intent: Xingyiquan fighters don't want to punch you they want to punch thru you! *They want to use one punch to stop the fight not many punches.* A xingyiquan fighter has mack- 10 trucks on his hands not fists!



Difference noted (see bolded section above). It's true that in WC/WT/VT we don't depend on one "super-punch" to finish our opponent. We frequently follow an initial attack with a fast flurry of chain punches. But we also put power into our punches... at least when we do it right. That means that the punch has to have a kinetic linkage that goes from the knuckles and wrist, through the elbow and body, all the way down to the ground.  Check out the following clips from two different schools:

First, here's "ChinaBoxer" _Jin Young's_ (a student of Hawkins Cheung and Gary Lam) take on putting whole body into the punch by synchronizing the rear hand strike with the forward step of the rear foot as you advance (from about 2:20 to 3:15 on this clip). This is quite similar to the dynamic in the clips above:   







Now compare this to the way _Emin Boztepe_ uses wrist, elbow, shoulder, spine and stepping to generate _significant_ power. I've felt Emin's punch and it is_ very heavy_ indeed. Interestingly, if you check his footwork (from around 2:18 to the end of the clip) you will see that he seems to synchronize his punch with the lead foot, also giving it whole-body power. This would allow for the second , follow up punch to synch with the rear foot and also have full body power. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipfAK224798&playnext=1&list=PL7500CC11E9A04997


To respond to the point made by _Oaktree_, I think it's a common practice in WC/VT/WT to follow up a powerful punch or short combination with a flurry of weaker chain punches... just to keep the opponent reeling back and maintain the offensive edge. Unfortunately, too often this is _all_ you see in poor quality WC: a flurry of fast, but light punches missing or barely landing without much effect. It's important to realize that that's not the way it supposed to be! It's just that really good kung-fu is a rare thing to see_ in any style._


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## oaktree (Jul 7, 2011)

> Difference noted (see bolded section above). It's true that in WC/WT/VT we don't depend on one "super-punch" to finish our opponent. We follow an initial attack with a fast flurry of chain punches. But we also put power into our punches... at least when we do it right. That means that the punch has to have a kinetic linkage that goes from the knuckles and wrist, through the elbow and body, all the way down to the ground.  Check out the following clips from two different schools:


I don't mean to say a person who does Xingiquan can not perform many different strikes at a time, just thats not what a Xingyiquan person is trying to aim for.  Beng Quan is a straight arrow the intent behind it is to go in deep. A xingyiquan fighter mind set is not to punch you in the abdomen he is trying to punch thru your liver, your spleen to rapture it. The clips you presented do not have the power a Xingyiquan fighter generates which is explosive though they do look similar the final result is different. I do not train in Wing Chun so I can not comment on it I can only tell you what I have studied when I studied Xingyiquan.

I thnk also the idea of using a weak strike to off balance your opponent is not a Xingyiquan thing. The idea is to over whelm your opponent breaking his defense or use an attack that complete destroys his attack or defense. There really is no defense in Xingyiquan. Every defense is really an offense. If you look at San ti shi of Xingyiquan its just a stance that is ready to move forward. The stance is coiled internally ready to explode forward.


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## mook jong man (Jul 7, 2011)

geezer said:


> Difference noted (see bolded section above). It's true that in WC/WT/VT we don't depend on one "super-punch" to finish our opponent. We frequently follow an initial attack with a fast flurry of chain punches. But we also put power into our punches... at least when we do it right. That means that the punch has to have a kinetic linkage that goes from the knuckles and wrist, through the elbow and body, all the way down to the ground.  Check out the following clips from two different schools:
> 
> First, here's "ChinaBoxer" _Jin Young's_ (a student of Hawkins Cheung and Gary Lam) take on putting whole body into the punch by synchronizing the rear hand strike with the forward step of the rear foot as you advance (from about 2:20 to 3:15 on this clip). This is quite similar to the dynamic in the clips above:
> 
> ...



The flurry of fast and light punches would be heavy and penetrating if they were supported by a decent stance , but the problem is most people are too high in their stance and the power is only being generated from the arms.

If you want to learn to generate power with your step and punch practice the Chum Kiu a lot particularly the stepping sequences thats where synchronisation of arm movement with stepping is worked on .


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## Flying Crane (Jul 7, 2011)

I hate to say it but in that third one, where he was punching the guy with the padded vest... if that guy was still standing, even with the vest, the punch was no good.


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## mook jong man (Jul 7, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I hate to say it but in that third one, where he was punching the guy with the padded vest... if that guy was still standing, even with the vest, the punch was no good.



I have to agree , from that distance he should of been able to put that guy through a wall.


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## mograph (Jul 7, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> I hate to say it but in that third one, where he was punching the guy with the padded vest... if that guy was still standing, even with the vest, the punch was no good.


Yes ... to my eye at least, it looks as if his stance is "light", not rooted at the end of the punch.


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## wtxs (Jul 8, 2011)

Geezer, I believe the gentleman you mentioned in the white PJ is James McNeil ... an well know Hsing-I MA, check out some of his "Splash Hand" stuff.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Geezer, I believe the gentleman you mentioned in the white PJ is James McNeil ... an well know Hsing-I MA, check out some of his "Splash Hand" stuff.



This can't be the same guy. His PJs are black!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2rZloo4I0&feature=related

Here's another guy in black PJs with similar "shuffling" footwork! (starting at about 6:15 in the clip below)


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## wtxs (Jul 9, 2011)

geezer said:


> This can't be the same guy. His PJs are black!
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2rZloo4I0&feature=related
> 
> Here's another guy in black PJs with similar "shuffling" footwork! (starting at about 6:15 in the clip below)



Oh come on Geezer, if you only have 2 colors of PJ's, soon or later you'll have to get tired of wearing just one color.  That vid is of his younger year.

The "shuffling" footwork of the oriental with the "Fro" is an bad imitation Ali ... he didn't "sting" too well, be he sure got laid flat as a butterfly.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2011)

wtxs said:


> Oh come on Geezer... The "shuffling" footwork of the oriental with the "Fro" is an bad imitation Ali ... he didn't "sting" too well, be he sure got laid flat as a butterfly.



You're absolutely right. That clip was not really an apt comparison. Try the following instead. First check out James McNeil's footwork in the following clip at about 4:07-4:37:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2rZloo4I0&feature=related

Now compare it to these guys:


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## wtxs (Jul 9, 2011)

geezer said:


> You're absolutely right. That clip was not really an apt comparison. Try the following instead. First check out James McNeil's footwork in the following clip at about 4:07-4:37:
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hD2rZloo4I0&feature=related
> 
> Now compare it to these guys:



Thanks for the nice clips ... comparing the foot works, I'll have to cast the vote for those monkeys.


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 12, 2011)

These hsing yi quan videos were awesome. Thank you.


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## blindsage (Jul 22, 2011)

All three of the clips in the OP are of Xingyi.  In the first Sifu Rudy Curry is a well known Xingyi instructor in NYC, and I believe the 'chain' application of beng chuan as he is demonstrating it goes beyond the basic method of single hitting, but with the same mechanics.  In the second clip it is pure Xingyi Beng Chuan as well with a Xingyi Dragon turn that has many applications.  In the last clip the individual seems to be attempting to do beng quan but is failing since his hit should be arriving when his rear foot arrives, not his front foot.


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## Domino (Jul 22, 2011)

Interesting


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