# WC Beginning Training = Watching Paint Dry?



## AceHBK (Feb 16, 2009)

As you know I have started WC.
I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff.  I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry.  I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".

I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring!  Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


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## CuongNhuka (Feb 16, 2009)

Before you build a house, you must first build the base.


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## paulus (Feb 16, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


To 


make your legs stronger
train your elbows
get better at reducing your thoughts
train fa ging
make your hands (tan sau, bong sau etc) better
Do it whilst watching tv/talking to your girlfriend etc if you find it too boring to do it and it alone.


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## geezer (Feb 16, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff.  I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry.  I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring!  Why must you do SLT so much!?!?



Hey, I here ya. I've been doing this a while, and I still struggle to motivate myself to train the forms. Sparring, Chi-sau, hell, even most drills seem more fun. Then again, I probably have ADD (attention deficit disorder) but grew up before it was diagnosed. 

So anyway, what other kind of stuff does your training involve so far? Do you do paired attack and defense drills? How about stepping and chain-punching or kicking? Have you begun chi dan sau (or "dan chi" = single sticking hands)? Let us know what other training you are doing. And my advice is to make friends with some of the people at your school. Maybe you can recruit a training buddy. Even forms can be more fun if you are with friends. Meanwhile, hang in there!


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## AceHBK (Feb 16, 2009)

paulus said:


> To
> 
> 
> make your legs stronger
> ...


 
How does it help you train your elbows?

What is fa ging? (never heard of it)

Heck I seem to do a lot of it in class so hate to do it at home.


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## AceHBK (Feb 16, 2009)

geezer said:


> Hey, I here ya. I've been doing this a while, and I still struggle to motivate myself to train the forms. Sparring, Chi-sau, hell, even most drills seem more fun. Then again, I probably have ADD (attention deficit disorder) but grew up before it was diagnosed.
> 
> So anyway, what other kind of stuff does your training involve so far? Do you do paired attack and defense drills? How about stepping and chain-punching or kicking? Have you begun chi dan sau (or "dan chi" = single sticking hands)? Let us know what other training you are doing. And my advice is to make friends with some of the people at your school. Maybe you can recruit a training buddy. Even forms can be more fun if you are with friends. Meanwhile, hang in there!


 
Lol..glad to know I ain't alone.

Ok right now (I just started last week) I am doing SLT and when it comes to exercises I am doing Pak Sao & Pak Dar. Pak Sao is cool and I see I need to get my hands conditioned to take the constant blocking that goes on. We do Pak Sao just regular and then we switch in terms of you punch when you feel like it and the other person has to block to help with sensitivity. Now when I first started doing it I would look at the elbows. Sifu stopped me from doing that and now I have to close my eyes which is actually cool. I can still block just fine. (I feel that my partner is heavy handed so it is easy to tell when he is about to punch....that or I feel the spirit Wong Shun Leung in me  )

I suck at Pak Dar b/c I haven't been able to get the timing down of punching and blocking at the same time and the punches come fast.

Oh and I work on my punches by punching a small bag filled with sand. My knuckles are killing me.

Thats it when it comes to training.
I am not sure how long my Sifu has been teaching. There is only 1 other student besides myself so I look at it as a good thing.  Class is a minimum of 2 hours and it is usually me and my classmate doing SLT with the 2 other drills/exercises for the most part.  I would say the last 45 minutes my Sifu then works with each one of us seperately.  In the time though he does say what we need to focus on.  My classmate has been doing it for a year and a half but seems real tense and heavy handed.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


 
HA

You think SLT is boring then don't start Xingyiquan 

Beginning Xingyiquan... Santi Shi Now stand there for 10 minutes and don't move then move and stand that way on teh other side for 10 minutes...and you still are NOT standing long enough... and Xingyiquan to me is one of the coolest CMA styles there is.

As to SLT, I went trhough it 3 times and never found it boring, but I can see where one would. But then I tend to be into the basics of a style before jumping to advanced stuff these days it makes things soooo much easier later....kinda :EG:. However I no longer do SLT or Wing Chun.


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## paulus (Feb 16, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> How does it help you train your elbows?
> 
> What is fa ging? (never heard of it)
> 
> Heck I seem to do a lot of it in class so hate to do it at home.


Example: your fuk sau is resting on your partner's tand sau. They push forward but your fuk sau is strong enough to withstand it without you using your strength - your elbow is good.

Fa ging is the explosion of power at the end of the punch/palm/whatever strike.

You can never do enough SLT


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## AceHBK (Feb 16, 2009)

paulus said:


> Example: your fuk sau is resting on your partner's tand sau. They push forward but your fuk sau is strong enough to withstand it without you using your strength - your elbow is good.
> 
> Fa ging is the explosion of power at the end of the punch/palm/whatever strike.
> 
> You can never do enough SLT


 
I need to do some research.  I have no idea what fuk sau and tand sau are.

So there needs to be an explosion of power at the end of my punch.  I haven't tried putting power into my chain punches b/c I am doing my best to stay relaxed.  I will start now though.

Xue Sheng,

Man after 4x in a row my level of excitement has dwindled to 0.  Like all MA the beginning is always the most boring part.  I will get use to it.

I just want to practice on that damn wooden dummy!!!
Why is it that you have so long to learn it?  In the lineage I am learning now (Moy Yat) , I see that it takes 2 years before you learn it.  I would think it would make sense to have students practicing stuff early on with a wooden dummy.  Just stuff they are learning of course, nothing advanced.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Feb 16, 2009)

The boring stuff is usually the important stuff.

Keep at it.


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## seasoned (Feb 16, 2009)

The learning process of anything in life is boring. Look to the people that have endured, and if that is what you want, then do what they did. :asian:


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 16, 2009)

IT BUILDS SHORT POWER

IT TRAINS STRUCTURE

TEACHES MOST OF HAND TECHNIQUES...


My humble opinion?



AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


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## mook jong man (Feb 16, 2009)

Our Sigung Tsui Seung Tin said that when he first joined Yip Man's school he did nothing but Sil Lum Tao for the first year , and said that lessons did not start to get interesting till the second year. 

In the school I attended for the first 4 years or so the only form I knew was Sil Lum Tao , then at about the 5 year mark I was taught the Chum Kiu form and then somewhere at around 8 years I was taught the Bil Gee form and half the wooden dummy form . When I left the school after 10 years I still would have been about 2 years off from learning the basic preparation exercises for the weapons .

 So compared to progress in other arts Wing Chun training is I suppose boring and tediously slow , and if you can't put up with that then maybe Wing Chun is not the art for you . Personally speaking I do not find it boring , I still have interest in practicing even the most simplest movements , even something as mundane and basic as pivoting slowly from side to side or taking a movement from a form and practicing it over and over again . 

The reason I don't find it boring is because I am trying to concentrate to my utmost and apply mental power to any technique that I am doing , If I was just doing a physical movement then certainly it would be very boring but when you are trying to energise your techniques with thought force then it requires absolute concentration . 

After many years I have learnt to find the joy in practicing even the most boring of Wing Chun movements in this way , and when you have finished you are in a very relaxed state , similar to a type of meditation but very much alert , the mind is uncluttered and any stresses or worries you might have are put in perspective.


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## arnisador (Feb 16, 2009)

Yeah, I've been there. If you like what you see tha advanced students doing...stay tuned!


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## paulus (Feb 17, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> So there needs to be an explosion of power at the end of my punch.


 I wouldn't go mad with this, just focus on being relaxed until the very last micro-second. Better to be relaxed and get the power wrong at the end than to be to 'hard' all the way through.


AceHBK said:


> I just want to practice on that damn wooden dummy!!!
> Why is it that you have so long to learn it?


Because you need to learn the basics first and the basics take quite a while to develop. Boring answer, I know!


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## matsu (Feb 17, 2009)

hey mate
funny i dont find it boring at all! but somedays its a struggle just to get started,but once i,m there i,m reaaly THERE!

try doing the form in various ways
for example-first time veeeeeeerrrry slowly.under full tension all way thru
next time verry quickly with full power, next go through the various tension /relax protocols.
then try it broken down into its various techniques.
at the moment i am having trouble with second part getting the dynamic tension with the strikes esp the sideways ones so i just do that for say 20 times then go onto another element?

hope taht helps
matsu


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## geezer (Feb 17, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> In the school I attended for the first 4 years or so the only form I knew was Sil Lum Tao , then at about the 5 year mark I was taught the Chum Kiu form and then somewhere at around 8 years I was taught the Bil Gee form and half the wooden dummy form . When I left the school after 10 years I still would have been about 2 years off from learning the basic preparation exercises for the weapons .
> 
> *...So compared to progress in other arts Wing Chun training is I suppose boring and tediously slow...*


 
My experience, though in a different lineage, was pretty similar. I was brought through the first three forms a bit faster (which is to say _too fast)_ since my sifu had to travel to train us and he was trying to move us up quickly. But then things really slowed down. Honestly, I don't know if I'll ever get the whole system. But it doesn't really matter, since I've already been shown far more than I'm capable of applying. I mean that's the whole point of the Siu Nim Tau form's name, "little idea" isn't it? You know, to_ master_ a small amount of fundamental material is more valuable than to have half-learned a great deal of "high-level" stuff.

On the other hand, I have to disagree with the bolded part of the quote above. I think WC/WT practitioners progress very rapidly in their _practical skills. _With just the basics, an average student can be very proficient in self-defense and sparring. It's just that most people, as I believe you were pointing out here, view progress in terms of _quantity_ instead of quality and practicality.


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## AceHBK (Feb 17, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Our Sigung Tsui Seung Tin said that when he first joined Yip Man's school he did nothing but Sil Lum Tao for the first year , and said that lessons did not start to get interesting till the second year.
> 
> In the school I attended for the first 4 years or so the only form I knew was Sil Lum Tao , then at about the 5 year mark I was taught the Chum Kiu form and then somewhere at around 8 years I was taught the Bil Gee form and half the wooden dummy form . When I left the school after 10 years I still would have been about 2 years off from learning the basic preparation exercises for the weapons .
> 
> So compared to progress in other arts Wing Chun training is I suppose boring and tediously slow , and if you can't put up with that then maybe Wing Chun is not the art for you . Personally speaking I do not find it boring , I still have interest in practicing even the most simplest movements , even something as mundane and basic as pivoting slowly from side to side or taking a movement from a form and practicing it over and over again .


 
I thouight it takes 2-3 years to learn the system.  Why did you only learn SLT in 4 years?


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## paulus (Feb 17, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> I thouight it takes 2-3 years to learn the system.


Everyone has an opinion, and different sifus will recommend spending different amounts of time on each 'stage'. It depends on the student too (in fact mostly). There's no point in the student plunging into the dummy if they can't do the basics stuff yet. I would measure progress by your skill level, not years training.

What it means to 'learn' a system is subjective though. It might take you only 3 years to learn the basic movements, but it'll take a lifetime to get them right.


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## bs10927 (Feb 17, 2009)

paulus said:


> To
> 
> 
> make your legs stronger
> ...



agreed.   it will help you keep your elbows in and will make your blocks better. also will help stretch from the huen sao and palm strikes.  once you develop the good habits from 1st form the the other forms, drills, chi sao will be better.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 17, 2009)

Bruce Lee didnt have the entire dummy form nor did have Bil Gee. Or any of the weapons. But he was very skilled in fighting. His hand techniques were awesome. An inch power was good to. The think that the basics are what make a stronger fighter and fierce. The basics are core. SLT is the foundation of all hand techniques. Many things found in Bil Gee and Chum Kiu will be covered in various drills. Depending on your lineage.

But if you are so bent on learning the Wooden Dummy form...

Then:
1.Buy a wooden dummy.
2.Watch the Wooden dummy form of Yip man on Video.
3.Memorize the form and practice it on your wooden dummy.
4.When you get stuck asked your Sifu questions about the mok jong.
5.Practice the wooden dummy form 10 times a day.
6.Practice it at various speeds and power.
7.Once you memorize it allow your Sifu to train when ever he is ready. 

SLT is a great form...Actually my favorite. But as for doing it ten times. Try to visualize different things. One thing I do is visualize an opponent infront of me. An with the side techniques I visualize and opponent to my right and left. This may help stop it from being boring. An you may learn what much of SLT can be used for in actual fight if you visualize a foe attacking or being attacked by your SLT.

Just my little two cents thats all its worth.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2009)

You know the more I think about this a better analogy to me would be like watching grass grow. But then it is late, I'm tired and it is likely just me.


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## TigerCraneGuy (Feb 17, 2009)

I train Kenpo, not Wing Chun, but I can understand the dilemma.

Instant applicability vs building the foundations. Which is better?

Imho, I believe that unless you have an immediate, urgent need to know how to fight (e.g. you're a cop, soldier, bouncer etc)... it's far better to focus on carefully building the basics before focusing on the 'more exciting' material.

Taking Kenpo as an example, there is, at times, a tendency to focus on Self Defense Techniques to the detriment of strengthening basic movements. This can be a two-edged sword. On one hand, from Day-1, you are taught destructive sequences aimed at striking vital targets (however sloppily these sequences are executed), and would therefore have a slightly better chance then the average Joe if attacked on the mean streets. On the other hand, if attention is not paid to refining stances, footwork, posture, and the mechanics of basic strikes and blocks, you will forever be executing sloppy technique sequences, and if reinforced into muscle memory, this may end up costing you dearly. 

Bottom line: Strong basics = Powerful, impressive art. 

So enjoy the foundation-building phase of drilling SLT. From what I can see, WC is an excellent art with many practical strengths. Have fun on the journey. If you keep at it, I think you'll find it pays off.

Regards,
TCG


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## mook jong man (Feb 17, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> I thouight it takes 2-3 years to learn the system. Why did you only learn SLT in 4 years?


 
Where ever did you get the idea that it takes 2-3 years to learn the whole system , I suppose you could rush through the whole system in 3 years but your skills would be crap , you wouldn't have much of a stance to speak of and not a great deal of speed . 

Also your wrist strength and elbow force would not be developed enough for you to use the weapons properly , specifically in the case of the knives where wrist strength is crucial against a heavy weapon swung at you , you will not have enough resistance and the weapon will crash straight through or your knives will simply be knocked out of your hands .

 In the case of the pole your stance will not be developed and you are likely to either sprain your back and probably in a fight get the pole knocked out of your out of your hands as well . When I said that SLT was the only form I knew for the first 4 years , it didn't mean thats all I was taught , I was taught self defence techniques as well and my Chi Sau was at a pretty good level and I was pretty fast . 

But I did feel that my stance was only just starting to come together and I was starting to understand how to relax . To illustrate how long a road it is in our system Sigung Tsui thinks that anyone with under ten years under their belt is still a beginner , thats the sort of time frame I am talking about . 

In our lineage you are only considered to be a junior master after about 20 years and that is only if Sigung thinks you are up to scratch . I remember when I reached the grade of level one instructor after 5 years my Sifu said to us that although it was good that we got that far it was by no means a great achievment it just meant that it was like we were leaving high school and starting our first year at university .

 I would put a student with a thorough grounding in SLT , Chi Sau and the stance up against any self proclaimed master who said they have finished the whole system in 2 or 3 years . After 20 years with Wing Chun as my core art I am still not satisfied with the way I do things . My left arm is a little bit wonky compared to my right , my right Fook Sau is not as relaxed as my left .

 My left Bong Sau is not as good as my right , my left kick is not as co-ordinated as my right . My stepping in , is not as non telegraphic as I would like and sometimes my wife can still shoot in a fast palm strike to my chest through my Fook Sau if I'm not watching what I'm doing .

 The list is long of things that I have to work on , and I don't ever expect to reach perfection , but if I can just be even half as good as my Sifu was or even a quarter as good as what Sigung is then I can die a happy man .


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 18, 2009)

In Kamon we don't spend a great deal of time just sitting in base. We compliment it with drills 
(Lap sao drill, lok sao, etc)

You should practice opening and closing stance a lot and work your SLT but if you are finding it boring maybe wing chun isn't for you dude

You have to feel happy with your training and it should feel natural

Personally I love stancework and drills in stance. I'm a big guy so I find it hard, but I know that with every minute that passes in stance I am improving my body


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## matsu (Feb 18, 2009)

i,m not sure if its my age or this year happening or what, but i dont seem to be in a hurry anymore to "graduate" to any level. i just want to be able to stop my peers getting through when they attack and to be able to give a good representation of myself within class.
i know i can probabaly defend myself against a street attack but def not against a relatively decent martial artist..... yet!
i have so much to work on with so little time that it fustrates me intensly,probably to the detriment on my art but hey thats me..... so how the hell can i get bored with anything that we do??

again perhaps knowing the very cool applicvations of the form will change your perspective on the fundamentals you are trying to improve on??
last class i reaaly got how simplythe taan can work. we did guard to guard then as the opposite grabbed your hand street style we then gaan sau and punch,and if they used their thumb to hold on to your wrist you turn gaan into taan sau which changes their whole shape leaving them open for massive rib breaker,or pak au and strike with the taan hand. all sooooo simple but amazing to watch and seeing as i was demonstrated on ,so scary to be taken out with!
but sifu kept telling us it was good basic structure from slt that enables us to do this so dynamically!
sorry, too much waffle

matsu


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2009)

> last class i reaaly got how simplythe taan can work. we did guard to guard then as the opposite grabbed your hand street style we then gaan sau and punch,and if they used their thumb to hold on to your wrist you turn gaan into taan sau which changes their whole shape leaving them open for massive rib breaker,or pak au and strike with the taan hand. all sooooo simple but amazing to watch and seeing as i was demonstrated on ,so scary to be taken out with!


 
Yes it is amazing how the simple act of raising your arm in Tan Sau can put some one who has grabbed your arm in a very weak and vulnerable position . The follow ups that are possible from that position are numerous as well , anything from breaking their arm at the elbow joint to throws .


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## Sandstorm (Feb 18, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


 

Just try and relax and enjoy it. There's no rush. It's something you should do for the love of it. If it's becoming a chore, maybe your mindset needs adjusting or you should look at a different art? Form work is laborious, yes, but we must all perfect those small beginnings to achieve the greater benefits later.

Just my tuppence worth
Good luck and stick with it, it's worth it.


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## AceHBK (Feb 18, 2009)

lol@ Xue Sheng..yeah Wtaching grass grow would have been better.  I just went with what hit my head first.

Ok I come from TKD background so I am use to seeing a move and immediately applying it.  Now I'm not saying that I didn't work on forms a lot (which I did) but for _*myself I*_ learn a lot better when I see the applications of things I am taught.

Now again I have only had a week of WC training so I knew it would be basics.  I asked my Sifu what was the application of SLT.  He said that there isn't one application and there are a lot of things that you can do with it.  That was it.  No different if you was building a house, I understand foundation is the main thing, just show me what each piece does for the house, that's all.  Im not the one to just follow blindly and not ask questions.  Im not a kool aid drinker...lol

I will say you all mention a lot of other stuff but again I haven't been taught that.  Just pak sau and pak dar, thats it.  Oh yeah and punching the bag of sand to help condition my knuckles.

As far as the 3 years go, that is what is always said about WC.  I could careless if it took longer but I am just repeating what is always advertised about WC.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2009)

> As far as the 3 years go, that is what is always said about WC. I could careless if it took longer but I am just repeating what is always advertised about WC.


 
It must be an American thing then , because I've never seen any school over here advertising that you can get through the whole system in 3 years and if they did I would make sure to stay away from any school that made such claims .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

You are right the whole system can be taught in three years. But to be a highly skilled fighter it will take you about 20 years to master. Now as for in history People who learned WC in just three years usually practice it 8 hours a day. We practice WC maybe 16 hours a week if we try hard. So in three years your not going to that skilled. Unless you move to shaolin for three years...then you will be very formidale.


But as for SLT I am impress you started learning it the first week. My Sifu didn't share SLT with me until I had basic punches and steps. An I didn't start learning any kicks until after my SLT and other forms outside of WC were looking right. 


We all learn differently. There are many videos that share applications of SLT check out youtube. As for the first week. Ha ha. But my Sifu always says with each technique there are limitless applications. You can also try meditate on each move on how they will be used against an opponent. Or have someone throw a punch at you an try different parts of the form. Have some grab you from behind an figure out what part of SLT can be used. But I suggest learning the entire form  first. Get it tight and correct structure then worry about applications. The first thing you are doing is building short power and cultivating chi.

Your stance is foundation of the house. With out it your punches will lack alot of piercing and damaging power to your foes. As for TKD forms. If I were you I would get the book an relearn all your forms. Their forms are great. Not much kicking but the hand techniques are awesome. Real Kung Fu. Few people learn the true form of TKD except the Koreans. But mostly on Television all you see is kicks. TKD is only really 30% kicks. Contrary to popular belief. Hitting the wall bag does more than condition your knuckles..Knuckle push ups on bricks covered with towels can condition your knuckles. The wall bag is doing more than just mere conditioning.

What do you focus on when you punch the bag?





AceHBK said:


> lol@ Xue Sheng..yeah Wtaching grass grow would have been better. I just went with what hit my head first.
> 
> Ok I come from TKD background so I am use to seeing a move and immediately applying it. Now I'm not saying that I didn't work on forms a lot (which I did) but for _*myself I*_ learn a lot better when I see the applications of things I am taught.
> 
> ...


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## AceHBK (Feb 20, 2009)

Thanks for all of the great advise everyone.  I greatly appreciate it and will use what you all have taught/suggested.

Yosh...I concentrate on making sure I am doing my chain punches correctly and that I am using the bottom three knuckles.
Tonight I learned Lap Sao.  I like!!!!

Veeeeery interesting!!!
I have much practice to do.  A wooden dummy to work on the things I learned would be nice.....  Helps to have a arm to help.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

Well having a wooden dummy is easy. Just save up $1000 dollars an buy one.


Yes.  So you use the bottom two the three knuckles. That means your target is above neck level. if you use the top two to three knuckles that means your target is below chest level. Like your striking the stomach or ribs from an angle. I think you could switch to strike a high target with the top knuckles but to me that is ineffeicient. 

I am glad your diving in head first. Sometimes I take parts of SLT and drill them over and over again until it becomes natural. An I get with a friend outside of class. Maybe not even someone who trains wc. I show them the SLT technique. An we take turns drilling applications. Sometimes one applicantion and sometimes various ones. When doing Chi Sau I use to always focus on different techs from SLT an how to apply in them in Chi Sau. Now I am beginning to think about Chum Kiu techs during Chi Sau. 



AceHBK said:


> Thanks for all of the great advise everyone. I greatly appreciate it and will use what you all have taught/suggested.
> 
> Yosh...I concentrate on making sure I am doing my chain punches correctly and that I am using the bottom three knuckles.
> Tonight I learned Lap Sao. I like!!!!
> ...


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## Hagakure (Feb 20, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


 

It looks as though I'm the only dissenting voice then... Hmmm...

I have to say I guess it depends on the school, we must spend, ooooh, a minute or two going over it at the end of a class? Some on here may denigrate that, but really, why? Yes, it's very, very useful. Yes, there are very valid reasons for doing it, but if "doing SLT so much" means spending a good deal of the class doing it, I can't see the martial application/self defence application in that. It's a training aid in my view, and if it's being trained to the expense of other methods in your class, then I'm not surprised you're a little browned off. 

We do a lot of pad work, focus mitts, bare knuckle, chi sao, concentrating on fluid movement, un-padded sparring (one guy will suit up marsh mellow man style) and the other guy will go after him. We learn ranges to hit hard and fast, and kicking range etc etc. This is all after a good, strenuous 20+ minute warm up out of a 2 hour class. In my limited experience, Wing Chun is an extremely effective, simple, direct art that doesn't need a huge amount of experience to transfer to muscle memory, by virtue of the fact that I'd taken an 18 month break from training and had forgotten nothing (rusty but not forgotten) is testament to this.

However, if all you seem to be doing is SLT, then I'd be bored I think. SLT will be extremely popular with traditionalists/purists etc, and I train it slowly at home (almost daily, and certain elements at work while sat at my desk!), and as precisely as I can. In my mind though, training SLT is almost like doing the theory of the art. It doesn't teach me, in my view, the range at which I'm likely to hit a moving, weaving target, or how powerful my kicks are, or aren't in my case, it'll help towards it, but it oughtn't be the sole focus in my opinion. There are those who don't like to see heavy warm-ups in class, stating that the practitioner should either do that at home, or, limit the work done in class. My sifus logic is that when confronted with a violent situation, and this is verified by the likes of Geoff Thompsons work "3 second fighter", the body will experience an adrenaline dump, which can be simulated by doing a strenuous upper body/CV workout, that's why we do it.

Before people take umbridge at what I've said, they're just my views. I'm in no way knocking SLT, or it's importance, just that I'd likely get a bit peeved if it was all I ever seemed to train.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.

*First we learn the* 
1.Strength conditioning exercises
2.Steps and Stance work
3.Punches 
4.Chi Sau
5.Blind Fold Chi Sau
6.Upagainst wall defense with one hand
7.Chi Kung Exercises and strecthing

We learn SLT much later. My Sifu always stressed doing SLT at home ten times a day. But he didn't drill it during class for a hour.


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## Hagakure (Feb 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.
> 
> *First we learn the*
> 1.Strength conditioning exercises
> ...


 
Also interesting. My sifu trains it slowly at the end, breaking it down, into sections, yet simply doesn't just do IT throughout the whole lesson. He also asks that we train it at home, and if there are any questions to either text him to remind him at the next class, or, to discuss it in class.


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## paulus (Feb 20, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> My sifu trains it slowly at the end, breaking it down, into sections, yet simply doesn't just do IT throughout the whole lesson.


I'm not sure anyone was suggesting they do it throughout the whole lesson, though I might have missed it. In our class we tend to do it for around 10 minutes, and sometimes we don't do it at all. We are encouraged to put the hours in at home though.

When I first started out, those 10 minutes seemed like an age. It's interesting how your perspective can change. Back then 10 minutes felt like an eternity whereas now it's the blink of an eye.


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## bs10927 (Feb 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Interesting...When I first started Wing Chun We didn't learn Sil Lim Tao right off the bat. It came months later.
> 
> *First we learn the*
> 1.Strength conditioning exercises
> ...



it's interesting that your sifu would throw you into chi sao and blindfolded chi sao without knowing first form where basic techniques are contained.   aside from not doing dan chi sao or luk sao first.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

My lineage doesn't have dan chi sau. I learn dan chi sau years later from interacting with people who studied a little of yip man. Actually My Sifu was the type to teach techniques by way of Chi Sau. First he taught us various hand techniques separate of the form. like tan sau. bong sau and pak sau. Where the first. We drilled those like crazy using one hand. Also we drilled Jau sau techniques too. 


an during chi sau we and blindfolded the concentration was just on feeling. needless to say with him you always got hit. But it did make my blocks alot better really quickly. I mean the average joe couldn't touch you from those drills and chi sau. Even only after three months of training. It was pretty incredible the way he taught. 

I think he taught us that way because we were interested in fighting. He taught us hard basics along with extensive stance work and root training along with some other stuff I hated at first. Now I understand the importance so its not so rigorus to me.


But we also had a form that was created by this grand master which condensed many techniques into a simple format. It was pretty cool. It could be that form helped me with increased speed and blocking. I know training with him was hard. But worth it. I guess everyone teaches differently. But After he taught us Sil Lim Tao his Sihing saw our SLT month later an thought we were pretty good. Meaning our structure was tight and correct as well as relaxed. So He tried to teach us Chum Kiu. At that time I didn't retain it because I wasn't ready for it. Lol...I wanted to stay with the basics back then later on I progress to the other forms. 


But to me the basics made me stronger and gave me alot of energy and revved you up to fight. After practicing those daily...your fist be itching to strike. You feet be twitching to kick. Its weird. I feels you up with so much aggression. Its hard to explain. Maybe its my lineage. But I don't know everyone I have met who trains the way we did. Has that same aggressive nature. Maybe it has something to do with the WC do you guys think certain Lineages of WC makes you more aggressive?





bs10927 said:


> it's interesting that your sifu would throw you into chi sao and blindfolded chi sao without knowing first form where basic techniques are contained. aside from not doing dan chi sao or luk sao first.


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## Hagakure (Feb 20, 2009)

paulus said:


> I'm not sure anyone was suggesting they do it throughout the whole lesson, though I might have missed it. In our class we tend to do it for around 10 minutes, and sometimes we don't do it at all. We are encouraged to put the hours in at home though.
> 
> When I first started out, those 10 minutes seemed like an age. It's interesting how your perspective can change. Back then 10 minutes felt like an eternity whereas now it's the blink of an eye.



 I was referring to the OP's statement about doing SLT "so much". This was understood by me to be more than a minute or two per class, and likely more than ten minutes? If it's less than that, then I've likely misinterpreted the OP's initial intentions.   I much prefer to train SLT at home, in front of a mirror, slowly, while saving as much time in my class for the way our class is currently set up.


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## paulus (Feb 20, 2009)

Hagakure said:


> I much prefer to train SLT at home, in front of a mirror, slowly, while saving as much time in my class for the way our class is currently set up.


Me too. Anything that I can train away from class I prefer to do on my own, whilst reserving class time for stuff I can only do with other people. It's good to do a bit of form work in class every now and then, though, just to get mistakes corrected. 

It was only recently I found somewhere to train that had mirrors and it is so much better. I can finally see when my shoulders are lopsided and my fuk saus are off to the side etc.


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## Hagakure (Feb 20, 2009)

paulus said:


> Me too. Anything that I can train away from class I prefer to do on my own, whilst reserving class time for stuff I can only do with other people. It's good to do a bit of form work in class every now and then, though, just to get mistakes corrected.
> 
> It was only recently I found somewhere to train that had mirrors and it is so much better. I can finally see when my shoulders are lopsided and my fuk saus are off to the side etc.




Mate, I train it wherever I can, even parts of it when sitting down at work.  Get some funny looks mind you.

I totally agree that it's essential to ensure correct form, unfortunately, the one major disadvantage in my class is that there are no mirrors where we train, so we can't necessarily always see ourselves where we can correct posture. Eventually, you can feel correct posture, but as a new starter, I think it's handy to be able to see yourself too.


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## paulus (Feb 20, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> But to me the basics made me stronger and gave me alot of energy and revved you up to fight. After practicing those daily...your fist be itching to strike. You feet be twitching to kick. Its weird. I feels you up with so much aggression.


To me that doesn't sound like the ideal state to be in. Surely it's better to be relaxed in your mind as well as your body?

In contrast, SLT tends to have a calming effect on me especially the longer I practise it.


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## AceHBK (Feb 20, 2009)

Well in my school we do SLT throughout the whole 2 hour class.  When I 1st get to class we do SLT and maybe pak sao & pak dar.  After 1 round of pak sao we do SLT then back to par sao again then back to SLT.  I do it throughtout the whole class between exercises.  Then before class ends we do conditioning.  Conditioning may consist of 600 chain punches, 200 front kicks & 4 SLT.

So when I say I do SLT, I really do it pretty much all night along with other stuff.  That is why I asked why do you do it so much.

It looks like I maybe the only person training like this.  I understand that it helps you relax after a exercise and all.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 20, 2009)

Very interesting sounds pretty good.




AceHBK said:


> Well in my school we do SLT throughout the whole 2 hour class. When I 1st get to class we do SLT and maybe pak sao & pak dar. After 1 round of pak sao we do SLT then back to par sao again then back to SLT. I do it throughtout the whole class between exercises. Then before class ends we do conditioning. Conditioning may consist of 600 chain punches, 200 front kicks & 4 SLT.
> 
> So when I say I do SLT, I really do it pretty much all night along with other stuff. That is why I asked why do you do it so much.
> 
> It looks like I maybe the only person training like this. I understand that it helps you relax after a exercise and all.


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## mook jong man (Feb 21, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> Well in my school we do SLT throughout the whole 2 hour class. When I 1st get to class we do SLT and maybe pak sao & pak dar. After 1 round of pak sao we do SLT then back to par sao again then back to SLT. I do it throughtout the whole class between exercises. Then before class ends we do conditioning. Conditioning may consist of 600 chain punches, 200 front kicks & 4 SLT.
> 
> So when I say I do SLT, I really do it pretty much all night along with other stuff. That is why I asked why do you do it so much.
> 
> It looks like I maybe the only person training like this. I understand that it helps you relax after a exercise and all.


 
At our school we did a 10 min warm up and stretch , then SLT for five mins . Then chi sau for 20 mins , self defence applications for 40 mins. Then finish of with chi sau sparring for 15 mins , conditioning or power training on the pads .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 21, 2009)

Sounds like a great start...wounderful...




mook jong man said:


> At our school we did a 10 min warm up and stretch , then SLT for five mins . Then chi sau for 20 mins , self defence applications for 40 mins. Then finish of with chi sau sparring for 15 mins , conditioning or power training on the pads .


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## qwksilver61 (Feb 21, 2009)

all in your head man.....I knew this cat...he was so intense...that he had to scrutinize everything man..he would get so frustrated...and I would tell him
"hey man,you're spinning your wheels! reeelllaaaaxx....don't think just doooooo...!" this stuff is part meditation part Tao! This is only one piece of a bigger puzzle,but also the root seed you dig? So then it was no longer boring.
Besides you are building Chi,developing an elastic body/mind,your body is in a state of yin yang,and your brain is firing in both hemispheres....cool Huh!not bad for something that's at least 350 to 400 yrs old!


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## AceHBK (Feb 22, 2009)

I just realized yesterday after class that I have only learned a part of SLT.  I haven't been doing the whole thing.  My Sifu breaks it down into 3 parts I believe and only taught me the beginning part.


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## chisauking (Feb 22, 2009)

I personally believe that wing chun -- whether the begining or end -- is only as interesting as the sifu\teacher make it, and in my opinion, many, many teachers make it far more complicated than it is.

After experimenting with the teaching of the SLT to one of my students in less than 2-lessons in 2-weeks, I have found that they can perform the form just as good as most people who's practiced for many years. Off course, they can't use all the tools contained within, but at least they have the tools to practice with.

Some practitioners have critercised and openly dissmissed my findings, saying that students can't have perfected the form in 2-weeks. This is true, but then my objectives isn't to teach my students so slow that I only progress them when they have perfected each stage of the form. I rather teach them the whole form quickly and let them 'play' with the form early on so at least they know about the tools, and then it's up to time and effort for them to perfect the form. A good analogy of my method would be to teaching a learner driver how to drive. No one would teach a learner driver how to change into 1st gear, and then only progress them further when they have perfected how to change into 1st gear. They would show them 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th gear, and then let them perfect changing between gears.

If you can understand the analogy above, then one can understand my teaching methods.

If anyone doubts my wing chun training methods, they are welcome to come and see my students, and compare forms.

Further more, in my experiences, the schools that hold their students back by showing the forms at an extremely slow pace, tend to stagnate their students eventual developments. Boredom sets in and they no longer want to learn something that was conceived to be simple and easy to begin with.


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## Hagakure (Feb 22, 2009)

chisauking said:


> I personally believe that wing chun -- whether the begining or end -- is only as interesting as the sifu\teacher make it, and in my opinion, many, many teachers make it far more complicated than it is.
> 
> After experimenting with the teaching of the SLT to one of my students in less than 2-lessons in 2-weeks, I have found that they can perform the form just as good as most people who's practiced for many years. Off course, they can't use all the tools contained within, but at least they have the tools to practice with.
> 
> ...



Very, very well put. Bravo.


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## Beginner's Mind (Feb 23, 2009)

I don't want to disrespect or question anyone's methods  - especially when I haven't seen them firsthand. But generally speaking, when I hear a Sifu is overemphasizing a certain exercise, like the 1st form, I get a little weary. 

In my gym, we perform the 1st form twice in the beginning, the first time being a chance for a senior student to lead. We do it once again at the end. A part of the training is also dedicated to studying a specific technique from the form, from slow and static to fast and dynamic drills. There's also sparring, chi sau, hitting the rice-filled bags etc. I like this regime as I feel every aspect of a training session is reinforcing every other. Better static drills = fluid and relaxed dynamic drills = better form = better static drills = ...


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## AceHBK (Feb 23, 2009)

I should have better clarified myself when I made this thread.  *I assumed that everyone is taught SLT in 3 seperate parts.*  My teacher breaks it down and teaches each part instead of showing you the whole thing and you working on it.  Being that for 2 weeks I am only doing 1/3 of it all the time is why I feel it is boring.  Again this was my fault for not clarifying but I thought everyone is taught this way.

I have previous MA experience (TKD & Kung Fu) so learning a form comes easier than say someone with no MA experience walking in the door.  Learning the form is easy but it is the subtle things in the form, which are the most important of course (hand position, elbow structure...aka the "little things") that take time in perfecting.


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## Hagakure (Feb 23, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> I should have better clarified myself when I made this thread. *I assumed that everyone is taught SLT in 3 seperate parts.* My teacher breaks it down and teaches each part instead of showing you the whole thing and you working on it. Being that for 2 weeks I am only doing 1/3 of it all the time is why I feel it is boring. Again this was my fault for not clarifying but I thought everyone is taught this way.
> 
> I have previous MA experience (TKD & Kung Fu) so learning a form comes easier than say someone with no MA experience walking in the door. Learning the form is easy but it is the subtle things in the form, which are the most important of course (hand position, elbow structure...aka the "little things") that take time in perfecting.


 
My sifu was pretty much *BOSH* straight into it, learned the whole form at once. Did I pick it up immediately? Nope, took a good few lessons to get things to an acceptable level. I guess in terms of the nuances, you could spend a life time trying to perfect it, and still never really achieve it. Besides, learning it to a standard of perfection is unachievable in my view. 

I sometimes think that some MAs may be a little guilty of even now trying to mystify something, and train it soooo slowly like it's some mystical secret that only years of training can make it something approximating perfection. I agree that that can be beneficial in its own right, for me however, I want something I can use pretty quickly. Not saying I want to enter the UFC next year, but I also don't want to spend hard time, money and effort in something that takes years to materialise as a MA to defend myself/family with. That was why I was drawn to WC, and it's simplicity as Beginners Mind said.

I found it relatively easy to learn the whole shabang, then just tweaked and made it more efficient from there.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 23, 2009)

Yea, my Sifu pretty much taught the whole form all together. It took us about three classes to begin to refine it. But the first class we got the skeleton an as years went on SLT started to open up and speak to soul. Now when I perform SLT I learn from just doing it. I learn new applications and different ways of applying energy. 

But then we would usually practice SLT two or three times in class. Along with many other forms we had learned. It was long ago. 

A buddy of mines from highschool got SLT pretty quickly it was rather interesting. He learn the form in one day. I showed it to him an we drilled it over and over again for like an hour. He pretty much had almost the whole form. There were only two parts he was rusty on. Which is good for beginner just starting out on WC. I did the form with him for a couple more weeks an now he has got it. Pretty cool.


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## dnovice (Apr 9, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> As you know I have started WC.
> I am doing SLT and other small beginning stuff. I must be honest, it is like watching paint dry. I was watching Gary Lam talking about WC and I felt better when he said "when you start out it isn't very interesting and is boring".
> 
> I realize that I am trying to train my mind and body but man it is boooooooring! Why must you do SLT so much!?!?


 
lol Ace. How's it going now? Where are you up to now in the forms. I was sifting through old post when i saw this and just had to comment. 

My first day doing wing Chun, we didn't even learn the slt, we just sat in a horse stance for an hour and a half to two hours. lol. After that, tons of people dropped out leaving only the dedicated. lol.


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## AceHBK (Apr 9, 2009)

dnovice said:


> lol Ace. How's it going now? Where are you up to now in the forms. I was sifting through old post when i saw this and just had to comment.
> 
> My first day doing wing Chun, we didn't even learn the slt, we just sat in a horse stance for an hour and a half to two hours. lol. After that, tons of people dropped out leaving only the dedicated. lol.



Well I have been doing it for 3 months and have only learned the 1st & 2nd part of SLT.  My Sifu has told me I am making a mistake but refuses to tell me what it is that I am doing wrong.  Says I need to figure it out. Drove me nuts at first now I don't care anymore.

I learned Pak Sao and Pak Dar early on.  I have been working on Lap Sao for a little over a month.

Wow...that was the first class??  Why even accept students if you do that?  Might as well had ya'll wash his car, paint the fence, sand the floor....wait....this is sounding familiar.


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## mook jong man (Apr 10, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> Well I have been doing it for 3 months and have only learned the 1st & 2nd part of SLT. My Sifu has told me I am making a mistake but refuses to tell me what it is that I am doing wrong. Says I need to figure it out. Drove me nuts at first now I don't care anymore.
> 
> I learned Pak Sao and Pak Dar early on. I have been working on Lap Sao for a little over a month.
> 
> Wow...that was the first class?? Why even accept students if you do that? Might as well had ya'll wash his car, paint the fence, sand the floor....wait....this is sounding familiar.


 
Thats alright when your fees fall due don't pay em , and when he says how come you haven't paid your fees ? 

You can say " YOU NEED TO FIGURE THAT OUT "!


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## dnovice (Apr 10, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> Well I have been doing it for 3 months and have only learned the 1st & 2nd part of SLT.  My Sifu has told me I am making a mistake but refuses to tell me what it is that I am doing wrong.  Says I need to figure it out. Drove me nuts at first now I don't care anymore.
> 
> I learned Pak Sao and Pak Dar early on.  I have been working on Lap Sao for a little over a month.
> 
> Wow...that was the first class??  Why even accept students if you do that?  Might as well had ya'll wash his car, paint the fence, sand the floor....wait....this is sounding familiar.



Well, it was acollege club. And my sifu got zero monetary compensation for teaching us.( wasn't a student) I guess he wanted to make sure he wasn't wasting his time.

About your slt problem, you can ask ur senior student or just watch him. Or if u want u can put up a video on YouTube and I'll critic it for u. I did moy yat wc under his son in Chinatown. (till end of chum kiu level).


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## AceHBK (Apr 10, 2009)

dnovice said:


> Well, it was acollege club. And my sifu got zero monetary compensation for teaching us.( wasn't a student) I guess he wanted to make sure he wasn't wasting his time.
> 
> About your slt problem, you can ask ur senior student or just watch him. Or if u want u can put up a video on YouTube and I'll critic it for u. I did moy yat wc under his son in Chinatown. (till end of chum kiu level).


 
Oh ok.  Well I can understand b/c when you doing something for free you do want to make sure that folks are not wasting your time.  I would have came back for the second day just to see if the 1st day was a test.  If the samething would have happened on the 2nd day just to make sure, I wouldn't have been back for a third.    How long have you been with him?

That is the funny thing.  There is only one other student in my class.  He has been with my Sifu for close to 2 years and I learned SLT from him!!!  So yes, we both are doing it wrong!!!!

I may have to post a video.  Thanks for the suggestion.

Damn shame when you have to go onto the internet to get MA lessons.


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## AceHBK (Apr 10, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thats alright when your fees fall due don't pay em , and when he says how come you haven't paid your fees ?
> 
> You can say " YOU NEED TO FIGURE THAT OUT "!


 
LMAO!!  :rofl:

I haven't been back for this month and didn't pay my dues.  May not go back.


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## dnovice (Apr 10, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> How long have you been with him?


 I was with him for about three to three and a half years, ie. till i graduated and moved.



AceHBK said:


> That is the funny thing.  There is only one other student in my class.  He has been with my Sifu for close to 2 years and I learned SLT from him!!!  So yes, we both are doing it wrong!!!!



Two years and he is still doing the slt wrong... That doesn't look good for the student or the teacher.



AceHBK said:


> I may have to post a video.  Thanks for the suggestion.
> 
> Damn shame when you have to go onto the internet to get MA lessons.



Noo. I do almost everything i'm not good in on the internet. I recently bust my knee and did some research online and found my diagnosis. When my car is acting up i do a search online and usually find the problem or possible problems. The internet my friend is you best friend. Use it. (just use it wisely.)

dnovice


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