# Benefit of pushups?



## Nyrotic (Jul 16, 2007)

After begining my studies of Wing Chun, I've noticed alot of nay-saying towards weight-lifting and body-building. I was wondering, are pushups beneficial towards WC? During my time with Shaolin-do, pushups were a daily routine for me, and I worked up to be able to do 30 diamond pushups straight.

I personally would think it would help, as pushups are a conditioning exercise and not a beefer-upper type.

...then again I've only just begun my training, so is there anything else I should know?


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## Monadnock (Jul 16, 2007)

Not being a WC guy, I'd like to offer this: Pushups are part of EVERY one of my classes. They strengthen the shoulders, chest, triceps...and well...they sure look a heck of a lot like a punch too (ok, at least a heelpalm).

I think they keep you tone, and build some strength while not having to worry about looking like Schwartzenegger (when he was younger).

I have heard people say to stay away from doing them on the fingertips because of possible blood vessel damage, but nothing conclusive there. We stick to the palms and fists, and push out a minimum of 40 per set. (It's a mixed class)


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## Nyrotic (Jul 16, 2007)

Thank you, and I've heard that fingertip pushups actually weaken the joints in the hand, and since the only people who would probably NEED to have strong hands are mantis and the seemingly extinct She Quan people.


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## michaeledward (Jul 16, 2007)

I have no training in physiology. And I am certianly not qualified in any way to suggest an exercise regimen. 

One of the things that I have been thinking about recently, is working muscles in pairs. Push-ups work the 'push', there should be an alternate exercise to do the 'pull', and work the bicep. I don't normally lead a class, but when I did one class recently, I paired similar sized students off, with a bo-staff between them, and asked them to simultaneously execute a 'curl'. If you have a chin-up bar, that would probably be helpful too. 

Sometimes, when I look in the mirror, I think my pecs are OK. My triceps look good, but my bicep is kinda 'gurlyman'. Need to get a weight bar to curl regularly, I think. 

$0.02


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## CheukMo (Jul 16, 2007)

I see no conflict in working out and practicing Wing Chun.  While Wing Chun doesn't concentrate on muscle power, being out of shape will in no way help you.  Pushups, dumbells and chinups are great arm and chest exercises and won't really bulk you up too much.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 16, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> Thank you, and I've heard that fingertip pushups actually weaken the joints in the hand, and since the only people who would probably NEED to have strong hands are mantis and the seemingly extinct She Quan people.


 
Cuong Nhu requires Fingertip push ups. Before I started doing them, I had a crappy grip. Now, people sometimes bend down in pain at how strong my gripp is. Granted, I do 30 a day (which is bordering on idiocy), and I get a chance to really set my gripp.
Nextly, push ups can help. The hard part is knowing how, which to do, and knowing to work up to it. When I started doing fingertip my sister insteded that i was going severly damage my hands. I brought this up with one of my schools coaches, he said as long as I work up to a safe point, I'll be fine. Doing knuckle push ups might be better. Put your habds in a punching position, and do puch ups like that. Or extend you arms past the normal reach, and do push ups that way. It builds chest/shoulder strength.
Also, if you want my oppion, weightlifting can be beneficial. But I perfer body weight only. You might find that you will come to rely on musclular strength. I know several people who lifted weights while doing Wing Chun, and noticed that tended to happen. Body weight exercises seem to have a lesser effect. 
A good strengthening exercise is to do Sinawali (a Filophino drill) done with two steel pipes is a great exercise. I do 6 versions of Sinalwali every day when I wake up. My Sensei (I train in a Vietnamese Art with Wing Chun in it, but has a heavy Japanese infleunce) has noticed a massive increase in my punch strength. You can check the section on Filiphino arts for some suggestions.
But, as Michaeledward brought up, push ups work on the push part, not the pull. To work on that, look at your forms. There's a reason why you load your hand were you do. By holding your hand back high and tight, but not resting it on your body or hunching your shoulder, you train your bicep.


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## jks9199 (Jul 16, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I have no training in physiology. And I am certianly not qualified in any way to suggest an exercise regimen.
> 
> One of the things that I have been thinking about recently, is working muscles in pairs. Push-ups work the 'push', there should be an alternate exercise to do the 'pull', and work the bicep. I don't normally lead a class, but when I did one class recently, I paired similar sized students off, with a bo-staff between them, and asked them to simultaneously execute a 'curl'. If you have a chin-up bar, that would probably be helpful too.
> 
> ...


Pull ups are a good exercise counterpart to push ups.  You can also "inverted pushups" by hanging from a bar, and pulling yourself towards it.

With regard to partner exercises...  There are tons of things you can do with a staff or rope between partners.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 16, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Pull ups are a good exercise counterpart to push ups. You can also "inverted pushups" by hanging from a bar, and pulling yourself towards it.
> 
> With regard to partner exercises... There are tons of things you can do with a staff or rope between partners.


 
Yah, don't get me started on those buddy!


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## King (Jul 17, 2007)

I totally abhor pushups. However, they're beneficial to your arms, chest, back, shoulders and core balance. Too good not to utilize. Which means I have to force myself to do them. Working with different variations makes a big  difference as well. Also pausing low/mid helps build the core balance. When you become a pro try doing them with your feet elevated and/or go on one foot. Meh, did I mention I hate pushups?


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## zDom (Jul 17, 2007)

michaeledward said:


> I have no training in physiology. And I am certianly not qualified in any way to suggest an exercise regimen.
> 
> One of the things that I have been thinking about recently, is working muscles in pairs. Push-ups work the 'push', there should be an alternate exercise to do the 'pull', and work the bicep. I don't normally lead a class, but when I did one class recently, I paired similar sized students off, with a bo-staff between them, and asked them to simultaneously execute a 'curl'. If you have a chin-up bar, that would probably be helpful too.
> 
> ...




Great point. Make it a total of 4 cents.

We do so many pushups in HKD while very little for our biceps to the point where I was getting a pain in my elbows that we pinned down to an imbalance.

So I now do biceps curls to keep things in balance. They still don't look great, but at least my elbows don't hurt anymore


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 20, 2007)

What you have to remember is that when you are doing pushups you are only fighting your bodyweight. So you are trying to increase your power-weight ratio (rather than just get stronger). 

Push ups are a great exercise to do and every wing chun person I know does them. Try not to get too paranoid. I have quite a lot of mass/muscle/fat, but find training with smaller people no problem

If you train yourself to have almost no muscle or the perfect wing chun body as people call it, you might be explosive, but you may also not have enough muscle for use in a fight. You need a certain amount of strength in a fight. One of my students who has trained 5 years is stick thin. I was doing a clinch drill where he uses all his bodyweight to escape. Because he was so light I was able to control him (ie the 7 stone that he weighed was not enough)

Going back to topic of press ups, I have heard many wing chun schools (even a lot of our Kamon classes) working on clap push ups which do help explosiveness. Avoid heavy weight training and stick to light free weights, which will help build up your hand speed


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## Changhfy (Jul 20, 2007)

Hey Nyrotic,

(Nyrotic)-Thank you, and I've heard that fingertip pushups actually weaken the joints in the hand, and since the only people who would probably NEED to have strong hands are mantis and the seemingly extinct She Quan people.

I would have to disagree with this comment. I have been training in Wing Chun (Ving Tsun) for 11 years now and the fingers, wrist, elbows and hips are all integrally important in Wing Chun practise.

Any time you intercept an opponent whether with a Kiu (bridge) such as Kam Na etc... the fingers and wrists are extremely viable.

I've studied Ip Man Ving Tsun, Chi Sim Weng Chun and Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun and each have some type of Kam Na(Qin Na) skills.


take care,
Zach


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 20, 2007)

And if you grab at the right part of the hand or forearm, you could seriously hurt them. Ever heard of a compound brocken hand?


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## monji112000 (Jul 22, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> After begining my studies of Wing Chun, I've noticed alot of nay-saying towards weight-lifting and body-building. I was wondering, are pushups beneficial towards WC? During my time with Shaolin-do, pushups were a daily routine for me, and I worked up to be able to do 30 diamond pushups straight.
> 
> I personally would think it would help, as pushups are a conditioning exercise and not a beefer-upper type.
> 
> ...then again I've only just begun my training, so is there anything else I should know?



pushups are vital to Wing Chun. Shock ups are very important.


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## brocklee (Jul 22, 2007)

I was thinking about starting push ups also, but I just got to the point to where I can throw a punch and not tense up the pectoral.  I'm afraid I may lose that ability and am not really in the mood to have to re-train it.


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## Nyrotic (Jul 22, 2007)

Changhfy said:


> Hey Nyrotic,
> 
> (Nyrotic)-Thank you, and I've heard that fingertip pushups actually weaken the joints in the hand, and since the only people who would probably NEED to have strong hands are mantis and the seemingly extinct She Quan people.
> 
> ...


 
So do fingertip pushups actually damage your hands? Or was that false information I received?

If so.....time for fingertip pushups for me ^_^


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 22, 2007)

Nyrotic said:


> So do fingertip pushups actually damage your hands? Or was that false information I received?
> 
> If so.....time for fingertip pushups for me ^_^


 
Start at 2 or 3. And don't kill yourself. If you go too high too fast, you will seriously (and permantly) mess up your hands.


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## Changhfy (Jul 22, 2007)

I agree with CuongNhuka,

You should start out slow as to not damage and of the joints.
But if your looking for finger strengthening exercises try the Eagle catcher, you can buy at Martial Arts Mart. That has significantly increased my finger strength. Or another method is try catching sand bags with your fingers, this way you can increase your weight and resistance as opposed to holding your own body weight. But dont get me wrong finger tip pushups are beneficial in their own way, just make sure not to put too much tension on the extremeties all at once. 

take care,


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 22, 2007)

That sand bag training is also good for training Chin Na.


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## Doc_Jude (Jul 23, 2007)

Good for Grip Strength:

Do Pushups while holding softballs. Works the wrists & the grip. Work it in with other types of pushups. 

Oh, & I've never had a problem with finger tip pushups. I think that the fingertip nerve damage thing comes from fingertip conditioning for striking.


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## Nyrotic (Jul 23, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Start at 2 or 3. And don't kill yourself. If you go too high too fast, you will seriously (and permantly) mess up your hands.


 
Actually, I would do something like 20 up until I switched to WC. Soon after I heard about the possible damage from fingertip pushups and stopped.

Thanks for the info,
Nyro


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 23, 2007)

And how long has it been since you quite doing fingertip pushups? Might want to consider starting over from the beginning.


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## monji112000 (Jul 23, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I was thinking about starting push ups also, but I just got to the point to where I can throw a punch and not tense up the pectoral.  I'm afraid I may lose that ability and am not really in the mood to have to re-train it.



I don't really know what to say about that. How do you move your arm without tensing your chest muscles even a little? DO you believe that will make you faster? Just wondering.

JMO but as long as you aren't going crazy with tensing, having your chest muscles tense a little is ok.


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## NanFeiShen (Jul 23, 2007)

Push-ups with a fist are probabily the better choice of push-up for WC training.
When you are lying on the floor, place your fists as close to your body as possible, in line with the upper part of your chest, and push up from there, it is the closest action to resemble WC punching, push-up wise.
The idea is to develop the Triceps for punching, therefore back "press-ups" are also very beneficial (hands behind you on a support, to lower your body)
Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 23, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.


 
True, but having a fast pull back is useful. It gives that "cracking a whip" kind of internal damage that alot of styles move towards.


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## tahuti (Jul 24, 2007)

Get 2 pieces of woodn dowel about 10cm each, put long nail in each of them and you get 2 T's, now do pushups on them. Than there are plyometric pushups.

Regarding power vs strength, definition of strength is maximum voluntary contraction of muscles while power is maximum contraction in very short time interval. Force is calculated as F=m*a (mass, acceleration). If you fight in weight categories than mass is fixed, but in self defense that is not true. 

Gaining strength without gaining mass it is possible, if you don't believe look for olympic weight lifters, they can still break world record even if they compete in weight divisions. Reason there is something called absolute strength, you will never be able to experience it except if you don't plan to connect yourself to nearby power outlet, definition is maximal involuntary contraction. Difference between absolute and maximal strength is called strength difference, it is actually improvement in nervous system to properly fire up muscle fiber, of course you can't improve it forever before you need to grow more muscles (gymnasts would love it).

RPM = repetition maximum

very high weight / low rep = Maximal strength (1-5 reps, 90-100% rpm)

Med weight / med rep + high speed  = Explosive strength 

low wieght / high rep = Endurance (over 15 reps) 

low weight / high rep + high speed = Speed 

8-12 rep with high weight = hyperthropy (growth of muscle) (75-85%rpm)

Now how you gonna achieve resistance with weights, bodyweights, resistance bands, sledgehammer, pushing car, it doesn't matter if you stay in that particular repetition range.

Maximum strength training improves intermuscular and intramusclular coordination, in other words coordination between different muscle groups and fibers in the same muscle. Disadvantage negatively impacts explosive strength.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

Let me geuss, you spend alot of time lifting weights?


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## tahuti (Jul 24, 2007)

Sorry, used weights as synonym for resistance.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 24, 2007)

OK... let me rephrase. You spend alot of time doing _conditioning_. Is that better?


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

NanFeiShen said:


> Push-ups with a fist are probabily the better choice of push-up for WC training.
> When you are lying on the floor, place your fists as close to your body as possible, in line with the upper part of your chest, and push up from there, it is the closest action to resemble WC punching, push-up wise.
> The idea is to develop the Triceps for punching, therefore back "press-ups" are also very beneficial (hands behind you on a support, to lower your body)
> Ignore the biceps, their action is a contracting action, extension (punching) comes off the Tricep.



Hm.  You guys use your triceps to throw punches?  I know that my tri's get sore when I do my punches incorrectly.  It's amazing to see how much different each lineage of the same type of MA can be.

The way it is taught in my school, and once again this isn't saying it's the right or wrong way, is that the motion of the punch comes from torquing and twisting the joints in the elbow and shoulder.  This maintains the same amount of power, which is transferred from the heal to the arm by torquing the hips, throughout the punch and allows you to strike the opponent with the same amount of power no matter what distance they are at.  Anyone else have a similar punch?


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 25, 2007)

Thats how we punch in Karate. Does that count?


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## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Hm.  You guys use your triceps to throw punches?  I know that my tri's get sore when I do my punches incorrectly.  It's amazing to see how much different each lineage of the same type of MA can be.
> 
> The way it is taught in my school, and once again this isn't saying it's the right or wrong way, is that the motion of the punch comes from torquing and twisting the joints in the elbow and shoulder.  This maintains the same amount of power, which is transferred from the heal to the arm by torquing the hips, throughout the punch and allows you to strike the opponent with the same amount of power no matter what distance they are at.  Anyone else have a similar punch?


The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."

In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."



My arm extends (unbends) because I rotate the [SIZE=-1]humerus at the shoulder socket.  The elbow then twists causing the elbow hinge to extend from 95 degrees to 135 degrees.  The only muscles involved are in the legs, which are used to maintain your structure.  If you we're to wish more power into the punch, you would shift your feet, rotate the hips, and then assist the energy by aligning the joints until the point of contact.  If you we're to desire more power, do the previous and then step into it.[/SIZE]



jks9199 said:


> In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."



It's to my understanding that you don't want to snap anything, unless it belongs to the other person.  The reason being, when you snap your punch you're giving the punch a destination where it finishes.  This requires that you distance yourself from the target to adequately deliver the power accurately.  If the person steps into your punch and you aren't able to get that snap out, you end up with a 40% punch that's kinda mooshy.  We train to have 90% power in the punch from the moment it leaves the heart.  3 inches out or full extension should have the same power and this will result in not having a snap.


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## tahuti (Jul 25, 2007)

Try to do very slow punch and see which muscles contract. 

CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

tahuti said:


> Try to do very slow punch and see which muscles contract.
> 
> CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.



I do them very slowly so that I'm able to accurately build the muscle memory.   Still no tensing tri or pec.. YAY


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 25, 2007)

tahuti said:


> CuongNhuka, answer is actually not a lot of time, 20-30min daily but it is intense.


 
Really? Seems like you would spend more time.


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## zDom (Jul 25, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I do them very slowly so that I'm able to accurately build the muscle memory.   Still no tensing tri or pec.. YAY



Even if you are not TENSING the triceps or pecs, jks is correct: to straighten the arm, you pretty much HAVE to use triceps. Likewise, to move the arm forward, pecs are going to be used.

Not saying that is where the power of the strike comes from, but those muscle groups must be involved.


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## brocklee (Jul 25, 2007)

zDom said:


> Even if you are not TENSING the triceps or pecs, jks is correct: to straighten the arm, you pretty much HAVE to use triceps. Likewise, to move the arm forward, pecs are going to be used.
> 
> Not saying that is where the power of the strike comes from, but those muscle groups must be involved.



Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow).  Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you.  You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this.  See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep?  this is the natural motion of the arm.  Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it.  Still no tension   The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist.  We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.


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## jks9199 (Jul 25, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The primary muscle involved in extending your arm in a punch is the tricep; torque, body dynamics, and the rest are part of it -- but unless it's literally being flung out by that torque, your tricep is the muscle that makes your arm "unbend."
> 
> In my system, and many others, an effective punch actually is a complex chain or linked series of actions, typically including legs, hips, shoulders, arms, and wrists all moving, turning, and snapping in the proper sequence, and making their own contribution to the final "punch."


 


brocklee said:


> Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow). Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you. You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this. See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep? this is the natural motion of the arm. Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it. Still no tension  The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist. We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.


 
Thus, by your own descriptions... The way you've been taught, you are literally flinging your hand out by the torque of your shoulders.  I do believe I left that possibility open...  It's impossible to "unbend" your arm without using your tricep, unless it's either falling under the influence of gravity, or being flung by some form of centripetal force.  Newton's Laws apply to skeletons, too.

I deliberately didn't break down exactly what role each body part plays in a punch; it's too complex, and too dependent on the system.  Really, considering that their ain't but so many ways to make your fist collide with a target -- those differences are what make the difference between systems.  For example, I know powerful punching approaches that work while one foot is in the air; many traditional karate stylists would argue that there is no power to be had in that position.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 25, 2007)

I agree with what JKS said. Many Karate folks (and guys who do most none-Wing Chun Martial Arts) agree that Wing Chun guys put little force into there punches. However, some old school Boxers however did what looks remarkibly like the Wing Chun punch. IE with only the arm and the shoulder. Because they understood the principle of none-commitment.


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## CheukMo (Jul 25, 2007)

brocklee said:


> Fold one of your arms so that your finger tips are touching the top of that same shoulder(colapse your own arm at the elbow). Now swing your elbow from the downward resting position, forward until it points away from you. You should maintain the forward going triangle when doing this. See how it swings with no use of the tri-cep? this is the natural motion of the arm. Now do that same motion with you fist out in front of it. Still no tension


There may be no tension, but the triceps have to either move or break. But I do understand what you mean by using no tension in a WC punch and you're right. 


> The way the punches are taught where I train, there is very little elbow movement but there is a great amount of movement at the fist. We launch our punches like an arrow leaving a bow.


 
That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 25, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)


 
Which is shared with Kinokenkyu-Kai Aikido, AKA Ki Aikido. Are you aware of that, or is that were you know of that prinicple?


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## CheukMo (Jul 25, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Which is shared with Kinokenkyu-Kai Aikido, AKA Ki Aikido. Are you aware of that, or is that were you know of that prinicple?


 

I learned of it studying about Wing Chun.  I didn't know Ki Aikido shared the immovable elbow principle with Wing Chun.  However, if I were ever forced to choose another MA, it would be Aikido.


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> There may be no tension, but the triceps have to either move or break. But I do understand what you mean by using no tension in a WC punch and you're right.
> 
> 
> That's the immovable elbow principle. (Not saying you didn't already know that)



You're correct.  The tricep does move a very little bit but it has no function.  It's not to pull the fist down or add power.  Actually, I believe that once you get good enough you may be able to add muscular function as an aid to WC power but that's down the road though.  It's like the "rotating on the center axis" theory.  Forms 1 and 2 spend the entire time focusing on this and then you get to the third form and it teaches you how to bend it.  So you CAN add tricep power but it will hinder your learning experience if you're not ready to take it in.  Sometime after becoming a sifu


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> I agree with what JKS said. Many Karate folks (and guys who do most none-Wing Chun Martial Arts) agree that Wing Chun guys put little force into there punches. However, some old school Boxers however did what looks remarkibly like the Wing Chun punch. IE with only the arm and the shoulder. Because they understood the principle of none-commitment.



I believe the wc punch is very power and explosive because of the relaxed state in which the punch is thrown.  There are alot of people that say they know WC, and they we're taught the forms, but they don't apply it correctly.   Getting into a fight creates lots of stress on the mind.  If the person cant control that stress, they can't be truly relaxed and will start using muscles.  If you go toe to toe with a WC practitioner that DOES know what he's doing and WAS taught how to transfer energy properly, you won't ever see him chain punching, leaning back, or rotating off of his axis(*cough* WT ).  You will see short, directs burst aimed towards knocking the opponent off of his structure and taking his line.  When I hear people say that the WC punch is weak, it makes me think that they have met someone that wasn't very good at it.


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Thus, by your own descriptions... The way you've been taught, you are literally flinging your hand out by the torque of your shoulders.  I do believe I left that possibility open...  It's impossible to "unbend" your arm without using your tricep, unless it's either falling under the influence of gravity, or being flung by some form of centripetal force.  Newton's Laws apply to skeletons, too.


The torque comes from the drilling effect created by the elbow.  The shoulder joint simply rotates a small amount allowing the elbow to naturally move forward.  The fist does fall because of gravity and the full extension is what stops it from falling.  Because the forearm shoots up, the fist appears to be going straight even though it is dropping in reference to the elbow.  Kind of a flinging.  We say launching, cause it sounds cooler


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 26, 2007)

CheukMo said:


> I learned of it studying about Wing Chun. I didn't know Ki Aikido shared the immovable elbow principle with Wing Chun. However, if I were ever forced to choose another MA, it would be Aikido.


 
From my expereince in Cuong Nhu (which includes Wing Chun and Aikido) I have noticed that the two styles do flow pretty well. However, the usage of the immovable elbow in Aikido is slightly differnit from Wing Chun's. Ki Aikido uses it to demostrate that Ki exists, and it's power. From my understanding in Ki Aikido there are two differnit sets of ranks. One is the physical matterial (the Aikido), the other is the Ki ranks. Which is based off the power and ability you have demostrated with your Ki. The two ranks tend to go together, but dont have to.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 26, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I believe the wc punch is very power and explosive because of the relaxed state in which the punch is thrown. There are alot of people that say they know WC, and they we're taught the forms, but they don't apply it correctly. Getting into a fight creates lots of stress on the mind. If the person cant control that stress, they can't be truly relaxed and will start using muscles. If you go toe to toe with a WC practitioner that DOES know what he's doing and WAS taught how to transfer energy properly, you won't ever see him chain punching, leaning back, or rotating off of his axis(*cough* WT ). You will see short, directs burst aimed towards knocking the opponent off of his structure and taking his line. When I hear people say that the WC punch is weak, it makes me think that they have met someone that wasn't very good at it.


 
Yep. You go against a guy with real experince in Wing Chun, you're pretty much screwed. Especially if He/She has analised how you would use the forms, or the Pac Sao/Chum Chio drill. There's an arm or neck break in there if you look.


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Yep. You go against a guy with real experince in Wing Chun, you're pretty much screwed. Especially if He/She has analised how you would use the forms, or the Pac Sao/Chum Chio drill. There's an arm or neck break in there if you look.



I know of the neck break, but I don't see where the arm break comes from.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 26, 2007)

Against a left punch (opponents perspective) you Pac with your left to there hand, and with your right to there elbow. Arm break.


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Against a left punch (opponents perspective) you Pac with your left to there hand, and with your right to there elbow. Arm break.



Ah....yes.  Placed in that position, in a RL situation, seems like you would have to step off of your line to complete the break...giving them the line.  Is it a practical move?


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 26, 2007)

You don't really need to step off line. Opponents power + Power of both your hands = Break. If you step off line, you will actualy make the technique weaker. 
If you cann't break there arm from go, you can roll it so your right arm is in the Bong Sao position with there arm at your shoulder (the higher the better, this will require that you step forward), and you will have them in a painful "come along".  If they roll so there back is facing you, you need to lean forward, this will drive them to the ground, and pin them there. It is normal to roll away from the arm in the lock to releave the strain, anymore then that and they are trying to get away. 
HAVE FUN!


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## brocklee (Jul 26, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> You don't really need to step off line. Opponents power + Power of both your hands = Break. If you step off line, you will actualy make the technique weaker.
> If you cann't break there arm from go, you can roll it so your right arm is in the Bong Sao position with there arm at your shoulder (the higher the better, this will require that you step forward), and you will have them in a painful "come along".  If they roll so there back is facing you, you need to lean forward, this will drive them to the ground, and pin them there. It is normal to roll away from the arm in the lock to releave the strain, anymore then that and they are trying to get away.
> HAVE FUN!



You're right, I see exactly what you're saying.  If you don't commit to the break, follow through and walk them out.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 26, 2007)

Bingo. Who says Wing Chun doesn't teach ground fighting?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 27, 2007)

You are talking about 'tok sao' which is part of chum kil

This works in some situations but not all. 

If you think of how big some people's arms are, how their punch comes in etc, it works about 40% of the time

It is effective in the sense that once you have that persons arm, even if the technique fails, you can float on with attack after attack

As for Aikido - most aikido that has been used on me in tournaments has been dreadful. Again, I never write off a martial art completely as there are always one or two good schools out there. I just think if you are going to do something wing chun, use BJJ or Judo


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 27, 2007)

I'm not familiar with Tok Sao, keep in mind I don't actualy train in Wing Chun. I might know the movement but refer to it as something else, would you mind describing it for me?

I am aware that it wont work all of the time. But nothing is garanteed. Everything is a chance, has it pros and cons, and so for and so on.

As for Aikido, there aren't really any Aikido tournaments. Or do you mean Aikido added to Wing Chun? The thing about Wing Chun is you have to learn how to alter the techniques for the individual, and the situation, same with Aikido. That's the real power behind both styles, the fact that with just a few handfuls of techniques one is pretty well defended against most attacks. But this takes alot of practice and an indepth understanding of what the techniques are all about.


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## brocklee (Jul 27, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> . That's the real power behind both styles, the fact that with just a few handfuls of techniques one is pretty well defended against most attacks. But this takes alot of practice and an indepth understanding of what the techniques are all about.



I wouldn't quite call it technique but more or less concept.  When you apply a few handfuls of concept one is pretty well defended against most attacks.  The technique is the personal twist that the practitioner incorporates to the concept making the move unique to that person.  You can have two people throwing poks against the same punch.  Both having the same concept are successful. If one of the individuals has added a bit of technique to the same pok, it will still be successful but may have an added job to that motion.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 27, 2007)

brocklee said:


> I wouldn't quite call it technique but more or less concept. When you apply a few handfuls of concept one is pretty well defended against most attacks. The technique is the personal twist that the practitioner incorporates to the concept making the move unique to that person. You can have two people throwing poks against the same punch. Both having the same concept are successful. If one of the individuals has added a bit of technique to the same pok, it will still be successful but may have an added job to that motion.


 
True, but I have noticed that every Martial Art is just a set of concepts. The physical material is just a way of expressing the concepts, so as to better ingrain it in your goard.


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## brocklee (Jul 27, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> True, but I have noticed that every Martial Art is just a set of concepts. The physical material is just a way of expressing the concepts, so as to better ingrain it in your goard.



Correct, so if you're learning WC from a sifu, not only are you picking up the concept of WC....you're also picking up the techniques that the sifu has decided upon.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 28, 2007)

Bingo. Whats fun is if you really look, you can find all kinds of fun ways to make small modifications to one technique to get anouther. Like change the angle, rotate your hips, alter the height, change the angle, so on. I've done that and come up with several new techinques to my circulum. The same could be done with many forms and all drills, so as to gain a deeper understanding of the matterial. 
There's a reason I say "Kata should be your Martial God" keep in mind, you could easily make the argument that drills are 2 person forms.


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## brocklee (Jul 29, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Bingo. Whats fun is if you really look, you can find all kinds of fun ways to make small modifications to one technique to get anouther. Like change the angle, rotate your hips, alter the height, change the angle, so on. I've done that and come up with several new techinques to my circulum. The same could be done with many forms and all drills, so as to gain a deeper understanding of the matterial.
> There's a reason I say "Kata should be your Martial God" keep in mind, you could easily make the argument that drills are 2 person forms.


 
Just as long as the concepts don't clash.  You mentioned "change the angle".  That's limited because one of the main concepts of WC is to remain square and centered and to not bob around everywhere.  If you're talking about stepping in and looking for another line of attack by using the new angle....then yeah, that's correct.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 29, 2007)

Thats true. Anouther thing you could do (for atleast Pak Sao) is change it from going striaght in to at an angle, so it deflects past your shoulder. This is best done with a little hip rotation. Makes the follow up a little akward, but still a valid concept.


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## brocklee (Jul 29, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> Thats true. Anouther thing you could do (for atleast Pak Sao) is change it from going striaght in to at an angle, so it deflects past your shoulder. This is best done with a little hip rotation. Makes the follow up a little akward, but still a valid concept.



The follow up is what its about and that's why remaining square and on your line is so important.  You don't want to leave yourself stuck on the next move, like in chi sao....you know, when yer the guy that's not doing so good.  It's because the other fellow has control of the line and has a better structure.  I do, however, understand what you are saying.  It's more advanced then the way I'm used to thinking and that's because I'm only on the second form.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 29, 2007)

brocklee said:


> The follow up is what its about and that's why remaining square and on your line is so important. You don't want to leave yourself stuck on the next move, like in chi sao....you know, when yer the guy that's not doing so good. It's because the other fellow has control of the line and has a better structure. I do, however, understand what you are saying. It's more advanced then the way I'm used to thinking and that's because I'm only on the second form.


 
Officially, I'm no where. Unofficially, I'm at the same place as you. The reason I figured that out, is it's the way it's taught in Cuong Nhu. That combined with resaerch into differnit styles. Filophino drills are similar (in some ways) to Wing Chun drills. Filophino guys (as they advance) begin to change angles, add footwork, go to one knee, all kinds of fun stuff. Kinda why I started to look into this kind of thing. Alot of these cann't be directly applied to Wing Chun, but with some modification becomes a really useful training tool. Dan Chi Sao is a good example of how you can add shifting/footwork to make the drill more effective. But this requires a high level of understanding first.
Try doing drills (even to the air) on one leg. That gets fun.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 30, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> I'm not familiar with Tok Sao, keep in mind I don't actualy train in Wing Chun. I might know the movement but refer to it as something else, would you mind describing it for me?
> 
> I am aware that it wont work all of the time. But nothing is garanteed. Everything is a chance, has it pros and cons, and so for and so on.


Tok sao is where you place one hand under your opponents elbow and the other hand over the wrist. It can be used to control an opponent, break the arm (in some cases), or change the angle of that persons arm to set them up for the next attack

It appears in the 2nd form (chum kil) in the first part, just after double tan sao, double dip sao, etc


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 30, 2007)

Kamon Guy said:


> Tok sao is where you place one hand under your opponents elbow and the other hand over the wrist. It can be used to control an opponent, break the arm (in some cases), or change the angle of that persons arm to set them up for the next attack
> 
> It appears in the 2nd form (chum kil) in the first part, just after double tan sao, double dip sao, etc


 
Hu... thats intresting (-runs through Chum Kyu in head-).

OHH... OK... I see what you're saying. Yah, same idea.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 31, 2007)

Yeah, I don't know whether our chum kil forms are the same. 
There is a slight clip/montage of Kevin Chan doing bits of the second form in the Explosive Power preview
http://www.kamonwingchun.com/Gallery.aspx
Or if you go onto YOUTube and type in 'Kevin Chan streetfighting'

I know that people talk about Chin Na in wing chun when it comes to locks and grapples. I haven't really explored this area too much as I am a big guy and can grapple quite well


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 31, 2007)

I'll look into that latter on.


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