# Reverse or Double



## SFC JeffJ (Feb 19, 2009)

I'm looking to by a new carry knife and can't decide on whether to get a dagger or a reverse bladed knife.

I'm leaning to this reverse blade 'cause I might be able to make the case it is a tool instead of a weapon.  It's also a little more versatile than a dagger I would think.

Thoughts?


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## Sandstorm (Feb 19, 2009)

Depends what you're using it for I guess. By a 'carry' knife, what does that imply exactly? (sorry, don't carry knives in the UK unless it's for work/bushcraft etc.)
I would think that model you are interested in could perform a variety of general tasks, yes. It looks pretty good. From a personal point of view, I like Karambit knives so my bias will lean more towards reverse grip/blade knives.
EDIT: At the end of the day, a dagger only really has one purpose:wink2:


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 19, 2009)

Well, this is my carry knife.  It was a gift by a very good friend, and I seldom am without it.  It's very small, I like the way it carries, and it suits my nature - if I have to get wet, I will get very wet.

http://spyderco.com/catalog/details.php?product=17


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 19, 2009)

Sandstorm said:


> Depends what you're using it for I guess. By a 'carry' knife, what does that imply exactly? (sorry, don't carry knives in the UK unless it's for work/bushcraft etc.)
> I would think that model you are interested in could perform a variety of general tasks, yes. It looks pretty good. From a personal point of view, I like Karambit knives so my bias will lean more towards reverse grip/blade knives.
> EDIT: At the end of the day, a dagger only really has one purpose:wink2:


It's primary function would be an auxiliary SD weapon.  I'd make sure and get some use out of it otherwise though.  As far as Karambits go, that might be a little to big to legally carry in some of the municipalities I go to.  Great knives though.


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## arnisador (Feb 19, 2009)

I like the look of it! A fixed blade is a good choice for you?


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 19, 2009)

arnisador said:


> I like the look of it! A fixed blade is a good choice for you?


I'm figuring my disabilaty will help the fixed blade stigma not be so bad.


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## arnisador (Feb 20, 2009)

SFC JeffJ said:


> I'm figuring my _disabilaty_ will help the fixed blade stigma not be so bad.



How will being dyslexic help you?


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 20, 2009)

arnisador said:


> How will being dyslexic help you?


Danm!

I should know better than to get a nkiev like that then!


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## Sandstorm (Feb 20, 2009)

Have you handled the knife you are interested in? I mean, it's all good looking at the picture, it looks well balanced, but is it balanced well enough for your intentions?. Also, there will obviously be the speed of deployment issue. If you have a clasp in the sheath, if so, what type? Some of the fixed blade knives are very quickly deployed and don't need a clasp, but it may be worth timing this one against a folder, just to see.
Just a thought is all. Let us know how you go.

Regards

John


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## jks9199 (Feb 20, 2009)

Check the codes carefully, and what the courts have done with them.

In Virginia, we used to look at the purpose of carry and the purpose of the knife.  However, a recent ruling held that a large kitchen knife, even if carried concealed solely for the purpose of self defense or even offensive use, did not meet the "other like item" definition.  The code here reads "dagger, dirk, bowie, razor, spring knife... or like weapon" so anything that would reasonably be called a dagger is illegal to carry concealed.  Even if you used it in daily life to open envelopes and packages or even whittle...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 20, 2009)

Jeff one of the best things you could do in regards to a carry knife is to check the states knife laws and then have a lawyer check it over to ensure that it is appropriate.  I would not also hesitate to check with your local LEO's as they can also give you good advice.

Here is a site that has each states laws.  Do not take it as the gospel as you should be able to find the same info on a state sponsored webpage:

http://home.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm#I-M

Here is Indiana's state knife laws as per that website:

http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/in.txt

Now when I look at that section for Indiana I find it hard to believe that this covers all the knife laws so I would definitely look for the states page. 

As to the knife itself.  Well I personally have always been a fan of fixed blades. Unfortunately my state does not allow it.  So it is a nice relaxed folding knife for me.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 21, 2009)

when you say "reverse blade," what do you mean?  Are you referring to knives that will be suitable for Pakal/Pikal methods?

how much $ are you looking to spend?


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## Skpotamus (Feb 21, 2009)

One of the worst things I see people do is ask police advice on carry issues be it gun or knife.  Most LEO's don't know a lot about the actual laws they are suppsoed to enforce.  You can ask three different officers from the same dept and get three different answers to the same question.  

I remember asking a LEO what age was legal to carry a handgun in Indiana.  He told me 21.  Low and behold, I find out the law actually says 18.  Off to the police station to apply for my handgun license, theofficer at the information desk tells me I have to be 21.  I tell him "the law says 18" and cited the code number, he just grumbles and hands me the forms to fill out.  He simply didn't like anyone under 21 carrying.  

I asked another LEO about knife laws in IN.  They spout off a lot of info about blade lengths, fixed blade and double edged knives being illegal.  Several local LEO's said the same thing.  Then I find the actual Indiana Code, and low and behold, the only things illegal are switchblades and throwing stars with no mention of concealment, length, edge style, etc.  

Enough anecdotal stories.  Talking to a lawyer is a good idea, but unless your'e paying them, it's just their personal opinion based on what they know of the topic off the top of their head.  Contact your local SD orgs and look up the laws yourself.  Then check for local ordinances that might apply.  

Here are a few websites that can help with laws and can point you towards the actual state laws.  
http://www.kniferights.org/
http://www.thehighroad.org/library/blades/knifelaws.html
http://www.donath.org/Rants/StateKnifeLaws/ 

As for the actual knife you're looking at, it looks interesting, but there aren't any specs listed for the knife itself.  No length, weight, material, etc.  Just a price.  Usually blackhawk does that as a teaser for a knife they haven't released yet, it might be a few months before it actually comes out.  

I have some friends who swear by the Roach belly knife for reverse edge work ala the pikal.  http://www.coldsteel.com/roachbelly.html


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## KenpoTex (Feb 22, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> One of the worst things I see people do is ask police advice on carry issues be it gun or knife.  Most LEO's don't know a lot about the actual laws they are suppsoed to enforce.


yep...




Skpotamus said:


> As for the actual knife you're looking at, it looks interesting, but there aren't any specs listed for the knife itself.  No length, weight, material, etc.  Just a price.  Usually blackhawk does that as a teaser for a knife they haven't released yet, it might be a few months before it actually comes out.
> 
> I have some friends who swear by the Roach belly knife for reverse edge work ala the pikal.  http://www.coldsteel.com/roachbelly.html


here's a site that actually gives the specs for the Kalista...I haven't played with one myself but I've heard pretty decent things about them.
http://www.knifecenter.com/kc_new/store_detail.html?s=BH15KL00BK


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## Skpotamus (Feb 22, 2009)

I like the looks of the knife, but one of the things I look for in a fixed blade is blade length itself.  If I'm goign to carry fixed, I want the blade length longer than shorter.  Something like a small kabar with at least a 5-6" blade, if it's going to be more difficult to carry than a folder, I want the tradeoff to be longer depth of cutting and thrusting.    

Of course, YMMV.


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## lklawson (Feb 23, 2009)

Carry whatever you like as long as it is legal.

Seriously.

A lot of people give you advice about carrying knives or firearms that don't "look mean" or alternative weapons that have a plausible explanation other than a weapon ("It's a camping hatchet, honest!") but the truth is, it doesn't matter as long as it's legal.

If it's legal to carry and you have to use it in self defense, then your defense for having it is "it was legal to carry."

More truth is this: If a LEO feels like giving you trouble over it, you're going to get trouble over it. Period. Legal to carry? How 'bout "disturbing the peace" or some other lame reason (happened many times here in Ohio under "Open Carry" laws). Your best defense against that is to not look the part of someone looking for trouble. Seriously. Call it "profiling" if you want, but wearing black leather cycle boots, a black leather crash jacket, a "I hate everybody" T-Shirt, and a Tapout ball-cap on crooked is going to get you LEO notice way before me in my slacks, button up shirt, tie, and fedora.


Further, if you ever have to use your blade (or other weapon) for self defense, understand that it doesn't matter *WHAT* the weapon was or what it looks like, if the DA wants to run you through the ringer, through the ringer you'll go. Your only defense is to ensure that your SD use was actually valid SD and conforms to the four pillars of Justifiable Self Defense, to whit: 

Opportunity
Imminent Jeopardy
Ability
Preclusion
rec.martial-arts Newbie's Guide to Self Defense (see section 10 Deadly Force and the Force Continuum)

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/f327143408b3ab30

As other's have so correctly pointed out already, pay for legal aid or at least go look up the laws yourself. Most states have them available online now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## KenpoTex (Feb 24, 2009)

just a few off the top of my head that might interest you...

Bark River CQ-1 
http://www.knivesshipfree.com/product_info.php?products_id=2153

something from Ken Brock
www.brockblades.com

something from Al Polkowski
http://www.polkowskiknives.com/


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## chinto (Feb 26, 2009)

at least in the USA you will be in more trouble for using a blade then  a gun in self defense.  you will be looked on as some kind of low life criminal for knowing how to use a knife as a weapon and some how underhanded for using one.

daggers are as duel use as any other knife, they have thousands of years as general use blades too, just as the single edged ones do. .. either way you will have a problem. 
cops and courts in most places do not like people armed, and see people armed with quiet weapons like knives and clubs as criminals till proven other wise.


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## lklawson (Feb 27, 2009)

chinto said:


> at least in the USA you will be in more trouble for using a blade then a gun in self defense. you will be looked on as some kind of low life criminal for knowing how to use a knife as a weapon and some how underhanded for using one.


No you won't.  Not if you're legal in your carry and validly use it in SD.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2009)

lklawson said:


> No you won't.  Not if you're legal in your carry and validly use it in SD.



But "valid" is a judgment call that's made by others, after the fact.


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## Skpotamus (Mar 1, 2009)

arnisador said:


> But "valid" is a judgment call that's made by others, after the fact.


 
Unfortunately, this is true with all SD situations.  Whether you use a knife, a gun, a brick, a rock, a tree branch or just your bare hands, some holier than thou posecutor or LEO can decide that you weren't "valid" and go after you for it.  

From what I've seen, if you're justified in your use of force, whatever you use isn't really important.  It's making sure you were justified that is the tricky part.


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## lklawson (Mar 2, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> From what I've seen, if you're justified in your use of force, whatever you use isn't really important. It's making sure you were justified that is the tricky part.


Absolutely.  Which is why concepts such as the Four Pillars and the Castle Doctrine are so important to understand and teach.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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