# Breaking Structure



## futsaowingchun (Sep 17, 2015)

In this short clip I show how by manipulating the human spine is the key to controlling and breaking the opponents structure. Two concepts are used to break structure. One is  hand to pocket and two hand to shoulder. In order to break the opponents structure the spine must be manipulated horizontally or vertically in order to take place.


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## Phobius (Sep 17, 2015)

Have you considered that he might move his feet instead of breaking his own posture? You can allow your hand to remain in his control, it feels like you want to keep your arm stiff in his hold at the end when demonstrating that your footwork will not work efficiently. Tend to disagree since it works as long as you dont break your own posture beforehand.

As for grabbing a punch, daring.

Do you have some reason to believe that breaking of posture is actually necessary at this point? Feels like a training drill that might teach bad habits. Not saying it does since me personally attempt at all times to avoid such posture failure.


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## PiedmontChun (Sep 17, 2015)

I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.

To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?

Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?


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## geezer (Sep 18, 2015)

Good video. Nicely framed this time, beautiful scenery, you've got the cool shades on, and the black vest with the collar up looks good. And black is _slimming!_ 

---says the guy that just split another pair of pants yesterday .  Oh well, at our age we deserve to show a bit of our ...er ..."prosperity" 

Anyway, I also like uprooting and disrupting our _opponent's center of gravity. _I just would like to emphasize the importance of doing this while exerting forward pressure directed along centerline. Pushing wide of center or laterally can leave you open to a nasty counter by people with good root, pivot and steps. Also pressing down forcefully on someone's arm _can_ create a pulling-in effect that may leave you vulnerable. For example at 0:45, your student could maintain his structure by letting his left arm bend, absorbing the pressure and redirecting your force. Should he fail at this, he has another option seen at 0:48 (and similarly at at 1:55) where it looks like your downward/across pul on his arm is leaving you vulnerable to a nasty _downward shoulder punch _to the solar plexus.

A lot of people execute the shoulder punch dipping and rising, but the quicker, harder downward version can put a guy through the wall. I actually witnessed my old sifu knock my si-dei Robert through a hotel room wall with this technique. We were all very amused, but hotel management was _*not. 
*_
Shoulder punch 8:45-8:55





BTW here's my previously mentioned si-dei on another day taking abuse from my old sifu. For what it's worth, he said it got even worse when he travelled and did demos with Emin!!! ...and I know he loved every minute of it.

http://thumbs2.ebaystatic.com/d/l225/m/mjrCTbt416yjlvNPWXbYOQw.jpg


Now back to the topic. If, on the other hand if you pull the arm _laterally_ too strongly "toward his pocket", a skilled opponent may borrow that force and use a lateral "falling leaf step" and pivot to let an unwary or overcommitted attacker fall onto his punch. Some WT practitioners, especially those familiar with EWTO curriculum may recognize this from their Lat Sau drills (Lat Sau 3 in our curriculum).

Mind you, this is _not_ a dismissal of your main point. Just a note that every attack, especially if done with excess, may leave you open to a counter. Except, of course, when you are _better_ than the other guy. Then you can mess around with impunity. ....God I hate it when my seniors do that to me!


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## futsaowingchun (Sep 19, 2015)

Phobius said:


> Have you considered that he might move his feet instead of breaking his own posture? You can allow your hand to remain in his control, it feels like you want to keep your arm stiff in his hold at the end when demonstrating that your footwork will not work efficiently. Tend to disagree since it works as long as you dont break your own posture beforehand.
> 
> As for grabbing a punch, daring.
> 
> Do you have some reason to believe that breaking of posture is actually necessary at this point? Feels like a training drill that might teach bad habits. Not saying it does since me personally attempt at all times to avoid such posture failure.



If you noticed at the end of the video I explained how you have to move your feet .


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## geezer (Sep 19, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> If you noticed at the end of the video I explained how you have to move your feet .



Yep. Most movements do have counters, if done in time. We will be looking forward to the video.


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## futsaowingchun (Sep 20, 2015)

PiedmontChun said:


> I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.
> 
> To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?
> 
> Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?





PiedmontChun said:


> I think I can appreciate the concept shown. Forming a bridge that can negatively affect the opponent's balance or posture is good and creating advantageous angle for you. We often send our Wu Sau forward and control the opponent's shoulder area / upper arm in conjunction with a Lop Sau and step. If done right, it either jams the opponent up or forces them to step away from you to try and re-face.
> 
> To Phobius criticism, I guess I would question if you teach this as something to seek out opportunities to do, or to utilize in particular situations where your opponent gives you the opportunity such as with an overcommitted punch, failed to retract their punch quickly enough, etc?
> 
> Also, I am curious. Where do you take a student from this point in terms of counter or how to deal with this? Say, if he shifts while using a forceful Gan Sau movement to either break your grip on his wrist or remove it as an obstruction in order to strike you, then what?



I was planning to make a follow up to this video go go more into details. The main thing to remeber is any technique can be countered and the counter can be countered also. It just depends on your skilllevel .If your much better then your oppoenent he is not likey to counter you,and it will be easy to counter him. you will always be one step ahead.


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## Jake104 (Sep 28, 2015)

Can you put a bigger guy in the video next time please? At least 300lbs or more? JK!

Disruption is good. I would just ad, I'm not I fan of pushing the opponent away or allowing him the chance to step back. Mainly cause I don't want to chase him around. I'd rather disrupt or break his structure while weighting one of his legs. In essence planting him in that spot while I punch and/or, sweep and toss him on his head. Steve/ Geezer mentioned uprooting. That works great too, again as long as I'm not pushing my opponent away, but instead using uprooting to break the spine and weight a leg. If I was the little guy in vid and I got pushed or step back, I'd use that opportunity to adjust and regain my structure and possibly take yours. But.....If my weight was planted on one leg, it would be much more difficult for me to achieve.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Why are you grabbing the arms of your opponent and not hitting him in the face?


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## Danny T (Sep 29, 2015)

Probably because he is demonstrating Breaking and Controlling the Opponent's Structure and not demonstrating punching the opponent's face. Believe it on not there is more within WC than just hitting the face.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Wing chun is about hitting. Not about chasing hands


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## Danny T (Sep 29, 2015)

Yea and we never Lop either.


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

Lop sau is not chasing hands. It's a method for clearing obstructions while effecting our opponent's COG & facing. But from there our goal isn't to continue to hold, it is to clear the line so we can strike


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## PiedmontChun (Sep 29, 2015)

Sweeps, throws, locks, grabs..... all contained in the forms whether you want to see it or not.


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## Danny T (Sep 29, 2015)

JPinAZ said:


> Lop sau is not chasing hands. It's a method for clearing obstructions while effecting our opponent's COG & facing. But from there our goal isn't to continue to hold, it is to clear the line so we can strike


Correct but it does clear the barrier AND breaks the structure just as redirecting the opponent's arm across the body does.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

If you are close enough to sweep, throw, lock and grab, then you are close enough to punch. Why then would you sweep, lock, throw, grab?

If you can't just hit then there is nothing wrong with sweeping a leg to allow a hit, disrupting balance with a lop or a stance ram to allow a hit. But grabbing hold or locking a joint? This is chasing hands. Why not just hit?

I have seen "joint lock" applications from Biu Ji and Chum Kiu. Suffice to say that these are obviously a waste of time and effort to anyone who has trained in an actual grappling MA. You need to be on the ground to be locking joints in a high % way.

I think most of these applications are just misunderstandings of the form (in my opinion). I want to believe that wing chun is not a crock of sh1t you see?


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Correct but it does clear the barrier AND breaks the structure just as redirecting the opponent's arm across the body does.



Nothing wrong with clearing the way to hit and/or breaking the balance to hit. Good wing chun, as long as the hit is the goal


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Wing chun is about hitting. Not about chasing hands


Punching someone who is resisting and who is GOOD. Is not as easy as you make  it out to be. So WC is more than not chasing hands and punching. WC is 'chasing' and controlling COG as to clear the line and disrupt, then punch. While maybe throwing in a good angle 

When you come to AZ . I'll bring you down to our gym in Tempe and you can just 'punch' with some real DTE boxers? Without the above mentioned WC skill set, my money will be on the boxer every time. Sorrweee!


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Punching someone who is resisting and who is GOOD. Is not as easy as you make  it out to be. So WC is more than not chasing hands and punching. WC is 'chasing' and controlling COG as to clear the line and disrupt, then punch. While maybe throwing in a good angle
> 
> When you come to AZ . I'll bring you down to our gym in Tempe and you can just 'punch' with some real DTE boxers? Without the above mentioned WC skill set, my money will be on the boxer every time. Sorrweee!



Wing chun is about imposing control so that you can punch, I agree. This is done by pressuring with the stance, cutting the way, clearing the arms, disrupting the balance, and so on. But the goal is always to punch.

Sparring with boxers is not a new thing for me and I am aware of the difficulties involved. Whoever said hard work would be easy?


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Wing chun is about imposing control so that you can punch, I agree. This is done by pressuring with the stance, cutting the way, clearing the arms, disrupting the balance, and so on. But the goal is always to punch.
> 
> Sparring with boxers is not a new thing for me and I am aware of the difficulties involved. Whoever said hard work would be easy?


Ok, so we are not to far off in our opinions of what WC or reality is. Great!


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Ok, so we are not to far off in our opinions of what WC or reality is. Great!



Just don't confuse the control with the goal (hitting the opponent) would be all I would say.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Just don't confuse the control with the goal (hitting the opponent) would be all I would say.


I like options.. So that's why I said not to far off. Instead of 'exactly'


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

Options, as in how a particular situation may need to be handled? Like a drunk friend who you may need to restrain? I'd feel bad if I punched him out and broke his nose because my art didn't leave me options?

Next day BFF says, " why'd you have to hit me? I say, "Sorry BFF  but I only know how to punch punch punch. If only my art taught me how to restrain".


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## JPinAZ (Sep 29, 2015)

Lol, good point Jake.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Options, as in how a particular situation may need to be handled? Like a drunk friend who you may need to restrain? I'd feel bad if I punched him out and broke his nose because my art didn't leave options?
> 
> Next day BFF says, " why'd you have to hit me? I say, "Sorry BFF  but I only know how to punch punch punch, if only my art taught me how to restrain".



I think you just need to restrain your drunk friend like everyone else in the world does it. Wrap your arms round them. Wrestle lightly with them. Point them in the right direction crossing roads. Keep them out of trouble. Dodge their weak and slow punches. You don't need wing chun or any martial arts for this.

Wing chun does not teach you to restrain. I recommend something like judo or bjj if you would like to toy with your drunk and harmless friends without hurting them. It will be about 500 x more effective than anything in wing chun for that particular purpose, or if you somehow end up in a grappling competition.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> I think you just need to restrain your drunk friend like everyone else in the world does it. You don't need wing chun or any martial arts for this.
> 
> Wing chun does not teach you to restrain. I recommend something like judo or bjj if you would like to toy with your drunk and harmless friends without hurting them. It will be about 500 x more effective than anything in wing chun for that particular purpose, or if you somehow end up in a grappling competition.


My friends are mean when they drink.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

They know BJJ too. So drunk grapplers are pretty much what I have as friends. So what should I do?


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

wing chun then. Make them pay


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

Sorry, mean drunk Bjj grappling BFF's.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> wing chun then. Make them pay


But then I have to look there kids in there eyes. "Why'd you hurt daddy!"


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

Or mommy". Lol.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

I know some tough ladies that drink.


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Kids: your daddy/mummy got what he/she deserved. Don't let it happen to you


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

What's a BFF?


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Kids: your daddy/mummy got what he/she deserved. Don't let it happen to you


Heartless I say! I just couldn't live with myself


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

I'd rather choke daddy out. Then they think I just put daddy to sleep. Kids grow up non-felons. I can sleep well knowing I helped society.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> What's a BFF?


Best friend forever duh!


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> Best friend forever duh!



Americans


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I'd rather choke daddy out. Then they think I just put daddy to sleep. Kids grow up non-felons. I can sleep well knowing I helped society.



Surely you aren't choking Daddy out with your wing chun? Looking in wing chun for these things is very far from simple direct and efficient


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Surely you aren't choking Daddy out with your wing chun? Looking in wing chun for these things is very far from simple direct and efficient


Laan ,chum and a pinch of tan sao energies. Very efficient.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

Oh, And if I need to throw daddy gently. I'll ad some and huen ma.


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## Jake104 (Sep 29, 2015)

guy b. said:


> Americans


I'm an Arizonian damn it! We live by our own rules!


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## guy b. (Sep 29, 2015)

lol


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## geezer (Sep 29, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> I'm an Arizonian damn it! We live by our own rules!



Not if you're married.


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