# Mace



## terryl965 (Feb 25, 2008)

Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.


----------



## KenpoTex (Feb 25, 2008)

first of all, "Mace" isn't very common as it has mostly been replaced by O.C. (oleoresin capiscum)/Pepper-Spray.

As I've said in other posts, I don't view OC as a self-defense tool, I view it as a _control tool_ to be used on a non-compliant or beligerant subject.  Why the distinction?  Because typically, you can only expect it to work on about 85% of the people who get sprayed and even then, it's not instantaneous...you have to let 'em cook for a few seconds before it starts taking effect.

Will it "stop" an enraged attacker?  I certainly wouldn't count on it.  I had to get a direct shot before I could be "certified" to carry it for work.  While it is not pleasant, it did not/would not affect me enough to prevent me from fighting.

Below you'll find an article that serves as a good "intro" on the subject.
If you want even more info.  go here http://www.totalprotectioninteractive.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2545&highlight=spray (you'll have to register with the forum to read the thread but it's worth it).



> Pepper Spray 101
> 
> By James Yeager
> 
> ...


----------



## Darth F.Takeda (Feb 25, 2008)

When I used to carry OC, I was also carrying a knife.
When I had it in my truck, I also had a eastwing hammer.
I look at it like a more painfull and accurate version of throwing sand in their face.
I dont carry it anymore now that I have kids, it's one more weapon to secure, I have enough.


----------



## LuzRD (Feb 25, 2008)

very informative article Kenpotex. i like it!

i think that relying on a spray to "stop" anyone is a headline waiting to happen, i actually feel that RELYING on anything non-lethal to stop sombody is a bad move. 
(to clarify, this does NOT mean that i think lethal action should be the goal! i believe like most (i assume) that lethal force is a split second choice whos result lasts a lifetime, and to be avoided if AT ALL possible.)

i have been in a very small room while a group of about 6 men where resisting while being removed from the club i worked at and they got "hosed". the effect took the fight out of them all but the overspray closed the entire club for the rest of the night. MY experience with "enough overspray for my liking" (from about 5-7' away from a couple seconds worth of spray time) would not keep me out of a fight if i felt i needed to protect myself or someone else, so DONT MISS if your in danger! and even then be ready to flee.

i have thought of buying a can as a "just to have with me" item, and that Fox Labs looks about right.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 25, 2008)

KenpoTex is as always right on.  There are some people it will not effect much if at all.  Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)

It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.


----------



## Bodhisattva (Feb 25, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> KenpoTex is as always right on. There are some people it will not effect much if at all. Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)
> 
> It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.


 
A big problem is that most "muggers" and "rapists" are likely to have an "in case of mace" back up plan.

Anyone who has trained with it knows that you can easily still double leg your opponent or grab him and beat him senseless in the clinch after being hit with mace.

I usually suggest to people to use their pepper spray like a jab - use it to initiate the rest of your attack.

It would make no sense to jab a mugger and stand there.

So don't mace him and expect the magic spray to take him out.  

Instead, Mace him and follow up with a right cross and a takedown.  Then either stomp him or run.


----------



## chinto (Feb 25, 2008)

Mace is CS/CN normally  and they are  two versions of tear gas.  each is a slightly  different  chemical.  CSII is nasty as its small enough to get into lungs.. but has caused fatalitys... and is restricted to military only I believe.  OC is pepper spray and good stuff..
all of them take a few seconds to take effect, and all of them have been known to fail to incapacitate an attacker. ( except CS2 once in the lungs)  
I know police who carry the "grizzly bear repellent" strength foam OC in a a minnie fire extinguisher like canister for control of  belligerent drunks and other suspects.  they say they get less in trouble and hassals if they use that .. and lots of it then using a baton or fighting with them... but its not a good weapon for self defense really compared to many, and federal office buildings and court houses and other places consider it to be a weapon and banned from the premises just as say a gun is..


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.


No.

It's better than nothing, but far from 100% reliable.  And it works best on those who are using it, not their attackers.  

If you're choosing to carry any form of chemical deterrent, I strongly suggest you do some exposure training with it so that you know how it feels.

Beyond that -- lots of good posts.


----------



## Drac (Feb 25, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> KenpoTex is as always right on. There are some people it will not effect much if at all. Particularly if they are on drugs, mentally ill or have had alot of training with it. (ie. myself, many military people, many LEO's, etc)
> 
> It is a good tool to use for compliance for LEO's but it is not my number one pick for self defense (way down the line) but it could be used in conjunction with Empty Hand skills and other tool set skills.


 
Well said Brian...One of our officers emptied a can of the police issued OC on a guy that was assaulting him and it affected the guy like a sudden attack from a bubblebath..I saw the suspect later in the ER , the crap was glistening on his skin and he still wasn't bothered by it...If ya wanna buy it go for it, just avoid the foam stuff....They tried to rob a bus driver here and sprayed her with the foam stuff and it hit here on the side of the face..She scooped it with the back of her had in an effort to get it off and it hit the attacker square in tha face...He fled the scene..


----------



## jks9199 (Feb 25, 2008)

I recall the first real-world exposure to OC I had.  I was a rookie, and one of the guys on my squad had a drunk jump him.  He sprayed the guy, and it didn't even slow him down until we finally got him cuffed and into a cruiser for transport.  It wasn't till he was calming down that he noticed the liquid fire...


----------



## KenpoTex (Feb 26, 2008)

Darth F.Takeda said:
			
		

> I look at it like a more painfull and accurate version of throwing sand in their face.





			
				Bodhisattva said:
			
		

> I usually suggest to people to use their pepper spray like a jab - use it to initiate the rest of your attack.


 
The use of OC as a momentary distraction used to buy time for a more effective attack is a great point that I forgot to mention.

One instructor that I know of referrs to it as "eye-jab in a can"


----------



## MJS (Feb 26, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Does mace really work againsta craze maniac, will it stop them in there tracks? I got into a converstation with a woman who says it is not worth a penny. Since I have never really used it or know anybody that actually has, I thought I would get some insight.


 
IMO, I'd put things like this in line with any of our empty hand material, ie: punches and kicks.  Anything has the potential to work, however, I don't like to bank on the one shot-one kill.  

That being said, it very well may depend on the person who is hit with it.  I've heard some people say that if you're under the influence of drugs it won't work.  Some people have been hit with it and it does its job.  

When I worked for the DOC, part of the training was being exposed to OC.  A few cans were shot off inside of a shed.  Groups of people were sent into the shed for a certain period of time.  During that time, one by one, the people in the shed had to say their name and a few other things.  Nobody could leave the shed until everyone in the group completed this.  Kinda sucked to be the last guy in line! LOL!  Anyways...the point of this...it was uncomfortable and I for one, couldn't wait to get the hell out of that shed, but I could still function.  Granted, it wasn't a direct hit, but it still wasn't anything fun. 

Additionally, I think that part of the effectiveness, is being able to use it effectively.  In other words...already having it in your hand, compared to having to reach into a purse or pocket to pull it out, as well as being able to function under stress.  IMHO, this goes for all tools.  We can carry a can of mace, a knife or gun, but if you can't use it effectively its not going to help.


----------



## Guardian (Feb 26, 2008)

kenpotex said:


> first of all, "Mace" isn't very common as it has mostly been replaced by O.C. (oleoresin capiscum)/Pepper-Spray.
> 
> As I've said in other posts, I don't view OC as a self-defense tool, I view it as a _control tool_ to be used on a non-compliant or beligerant subject. Why the distinction? Because typically, you can only expect it to work on about 85% of the people who get sprayed and even then, it's not instantaneous...you have to let 'em cook for a few seconds before it starts taking effect.
> 
> ...


 
*We had to take that blast also and I concur with you all the way, I'd rather yell at them to startle them.  I still will use it, but it's definately in my mind that I better be ready for the next portion.*


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 26, 2008)

What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned 

Sorry, I just HAD to do it


----------



## KenpoTex (Feb 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned
> 
> Sorry, I just HAD to do it


I wish they'd issue me one of those instead of the can of hot-sauce.


----------



## chinto (Feb 27, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> What do you mean mace might not work. Either this mace or this mace would work against just fine against a crazed maniac as far as I'm concerned
> 
> Sorry, I just HAD to do it




well I will take mace number one over number two.. flails are really really over rated.. but number one.. "holy water sprinkler" type will do the job really really well!!


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Feb 27, 2008)

As an OC Spray (Pepperspray) instructor, I tell my officers to consider OC Spray a DISTRACTOR.....the most consistent response you can expect from it is to buy you a few moments while he adjusts to a new reality.  Don't count on that being long, and DON'T count on him dropping in his tracks.  Have a backup plan.

The response to being sprayed depends on a GREAT many variables, not the least of which is the particular spray you are using, it's delivery system (cone, fog, stream, etc), the mindset, mental state and relative pain tolerance of the person you are spraying, and many other conditions.  Therefore, the range of responses is varied WIDELY!  One person may drop instantly as if shot to the ground, while another may show no apparent signs at all!

Having been sprayed NUMEROUS times myself, I can attest to how it affects me....I can still see (close up) and I can still FIGHT!   I experience burning and walleye vision.  If you're within 5 feet of me and I can hit you, kick you, shoot you.  HOWEVER, if i'm properly dosed and you run AWAY from me, I probably couldn't follow you, as the 'eye-flipping' causes the aforementioned walleye vision.

OC Spray when properly used, can be VERY effective in increasing your ability to defend yourself.....but you MUST understand it's strengths and weaknesses and how to apply it properly....NEVER expect it to be a magic bullet end to an encounter.  Count on it as a distractor, and work from there!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Feb 27, 2008)

chinto said:


> well I will take mace number one over number two.. flails are really really over rated.. but number one.. "holy water sprinkler" type will do the job really really well!!


 
I know little about the mace but I must admit I have always wondered about how effective the chain version was and I always felt it was at least less dependable and controllable then the solid version - thanks for the info

And now I apologize to going off topic


----------



## chinto (Feb 28, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I know little about the mace but I must admit I have always wondered about how effective the chain version was and I always felt it was at least less dependable and controllable then the solid version - thanks for the info
> 
> And now I apologize to going off topic


lol... yep and the flanged version works well too. but the flails are over rated and were never that common or practical.
as to the chemical OC version.. the cop I know who uses the foam version in the huge canister with long range said it usually works pretty well if you start hosing them down from a distance and as they fall keep it up so they are well saturated and covered.  ... and less paper work and legal hassil then if you use a baton, let alone shoot them.


----------

