# PETA Goes After SeaWorld With Lawsuit On Slavery.



## MA-Caver (Oct 26, 2011)

They want to change the constitution so that animals are protected the same as humans. 


> SAN DIEGO (AP)  A federal court is being asked to grant constitutional rights to five killer whales  who perform at marine parks  an unprecedented and perhaps quixotic  legal action that is nonetheless likely to stoke an ongoing, intense  debate at America's law schools over expansion of animal rights.
> People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals is accusing the SeaWorld parks of keeping five star-performer whales in conditions that violate the 13th Amendment ban on slavery. SeaWorld depicted the suit as baseless.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/peta-lawsuit-seeks-expand-animal-rights-222219887.html



I'm against animal cruelty all the way. But what is the difference in taking an animal giving it superior medical care that it couldn't get in the wild, ensuring the survival of the species by careful husbandry and leaving it to fend for itself out in the wild where there are hunters willing to shoot and kill and butcher their kin? 
I see the park as a means of allowing people to see these magnificent creatures (all of the varieties they have) up close. To see what they're capable of. Performing tricks, mankind has been doing that with animals for centuries. How about your dog Peta... aren't you denying your dog it's basic right to roam free by keeping it in the house and (fenced in) yard? Does your dog sit, stay, roll-over on command? Or is it just a lazy, stupid dog that eats free meals and ***** in your yard? How about your cats? Do you punish the animals when they tear up your furniture? Oh how cruel to deny the animal it's natural instincts... 

PETA once again shows it's hypocritical moronic thinking. They need to go bark up a tree.


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## granfire (Oct 26, 2011)

Ah, but you are talking about people who think your mouser would be better off dead than sitting on your lap, getting scratches and free food.

(you have heard all the antics PETS people have done over the years...Along with their 1st cousins, the HSUS, who operate a 'shelter' in Va, incidentally sporting the highest kill rate of any such facility within the state...)


PETA are terrorist and ought to be dealt with as such.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 26, 2011)

> *We the People *of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility,provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.







> *AMENDMENT XIII*
> _Passed by Congress January 31, 1865. RatifiedDecember 6, 1865._
> *Note*: A portion of Article IV, section 2, of the Constitution was supersededby the 13th amendment.
> *Section 1.*
> ...


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## Nomad (Oct 26, 2011)

I  do believe that people shouldn't keep killer whales in captivity for a variety of reasons. There's no way we can give a "big enough" tank to animals that have evolved to travel thousands of miles each year in effectively straight lines.  Additionally, killer whales in captivity have a remarkably shorter life span than those in the wild.

OTOH, I do think that Seaworld serves a purpose other than pure entertainment by allowing people to encounter these magnificent animals up close and to observe their obvious intelligence through the tricks they've been taught.

Regardless of the underlying issues, this move by PETA (an organization that I detest for an even wider variety of reasons!) is nothing more than another attempt to grab headlines.


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## cdunn (Oct 26, 2011)

At this time, they're barking up the wrong tree. If and only if it can be prove that our aquatic cousins are actually sophonts should we be extending such rights to them.


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## granfire (Oct 26, 2011)

Nomad said:


> I  do believe that people shouldn't keep killer whales in captivity for a variety of reasons. There's no way we can give a "big enough" tank to animals that have evolved to travel thousands of miles each year in effectively straight lines.  Additionally, killer whales in captivity have a remarkably shorter life span than those in the wild.
> 
> OTOH, I do think that Seaworld serves a purpose other than pure entertainment by allowing people to encounter these magnificent animals up close and to observe their obvious intelligence through the tricks they've been taught.
> 
> Regardless of the underlying issues, this move by PETA (an organization that I detest for an even wider variety of reasons!) is nothing more than another attempt to grab headlines.



Not to mention more money...


(also, I apologize to all pets world wide, it meant to read PET*A*, not pets....)


I think places like Seaworld and the circus do serve to bring such animals closer to us. We, as a species tend to be unable to love and protect which we have no closer relationship to. 
(I do agree, any man made structure must fall short compared to the world's oceans)


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## punisher73 (Oct 27, 2011)

I was going to join PETA until I found out that it WASN'T "People Eating Tasty Animals". 

Joking aside.  PETA exists just to exist.  The stuff they mostly campaign against is dumb stuff and I truly wonder if they even buy their own crap.

I would like them to live a life that has NOT benefited from an animal in some way.  Put them all on an island somewhere and let them live all on their own in harmony with their animals.


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## granfire (Oct 27, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I was going to join PETA until I found out that it WASN'T "People Eating Tasty Animals".
> 
> Joking aside.  PETA exists just to exist.  The stuff they mostly campaign against is dumb stuff and I truly wonder if they even buy their own crap.
> 
> I would like them to live a life that has NOT benefited from an animal in some way.  Put them all on an island somewhere and let them live all on their own in harmony with their animals.



You would not believe how many ignorant people follow them - and throw money at them!

And sadly, in a political culture where money speaks above anything else, they have enormous reach. So do not discount them. Little by little they whittle on the matter of animal keeping.
Maybe in the 80s they made some sense, but since then? 

But sadly since the 80s also a whole lot more people have lost all connection with where life comes from.

Right now big outcry in NYC (not directly PETA related, but their spawns shimmy their way - or should I say weasle - into positions of power in other organizations!) Pretty white carriage horse drops dead. Bam, probably gone before he hit the pavement. Naturally it's the massive outcry how healthy horses don't just die. Dunno, I think it happens to enough people all the time, why not an animal?!
Oh, the ASPCA, in charge of overseeing the operations of all things horse in NYC are also the most vocal in banning them. NOW, with a died in the wool PETA man on top, I can smell conflict of interest, 10 states over. Not to mention their officers have police powers _and _a big side arm! (And I am probably the only person who sees the irony when said figurehead is claiming the horrible conditions...when it's his job to check on that...he ought to resign then!)


However, PETA, the 1st cousin HSUS and the newly acquired ASPCA have more money then most small sovereign countries - actually more than the US, considering they actually HAVE the money, and not just dept! So there is point for concern.


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## decepticon (Oct 27, 2011)

Many years ago, I worked in the marine mammal industry, on the regulatory side. Based on my experiences, I definitely believe that artificial tanks can never provide adequate housing for dolphins or whales. There is no way that they can be adapted to provide the enormous spaces, richness of diverse life and terrain, and also adequate sonar/echolocation bounce back that would be in any way similar to the animals' natural habitat. These animals are built for traveling miles daily, not swimming in a 200 ft. circle in one spot. They are used to being in an environment filled with numerous plant and animal species other than themselves. They use echolocation, a natural form of sonar, to "see" what is around them - to be in a large concrete tank or one with plexiglass walls would be like living in an echo chamber for them. The fact is that while state and federal governments have regulatory laws, the various marine mammal facilities often hold more power with the various governmental officials than the lowly regulatory employees do, and many laws are "bent" to accommodate whatever the facilities want.

All that said, I do not think animals should be given the same legal rights as humans. If so, then would the killer whale who drowned the trainer a couple of years back now be charged with murder? He wasn't punished for his crime, even though there were plenty of witnesses.

IMO, a better answers lie in enforcing the existing laws across the board - no exceptions for the megafacilities, to find better ways to educate people as to the magnificent nature of these animals that do not require the animals to be held captive, improving existing facilities - marine mammals really do die at a very high rate in captivity (there was an old expose called Dying to Please, if anyone is interested in this), and respecting marine mammals as the incredible creatures they really are, not trying to fit them into a human mold.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 27, 2011)

decepticon said:


> Many years ago, I worked in the marine mammal industry, on the regulatory side. Based on my experiences, I definitely believe that artificial tanks can never provide adequate housing for dolphins or whales. There is no way that they can be adapted to provide the enormous spaces, richness of diverse life and terrain, and also adequate sonar/echolocation bounce back that would be in any way similar to the animals' natural habitat. These animals are built for traveling miles daily, not swimming in a 200 ft. circle in one spot. They are used to being in an environment filled with numerous plant and animal species other than themselves. They use echolocation, a natural form of sonar, to "see" what is around them - to be in a large concrete tank or one with plexiglass walls would be like living in an echo chamber for them. The fact is that while state and federal governments have regulatory laws, the various marine mammal facilities often hold more power with the various governmental officials than the lowly regulatory employees do, and many laws are "bent" to accommodate whatever the facilities want.
> 
> All that said, I do not think animals should be given the same legal rights as humans. If so, then would the killer whale who drowned the trainer a couple of years back now be charged with murder? He wasn't punished for his crime, even though there were plenty of witnesses.
> 
> IMO, a better answers lie in enforcing the existing laws across the board - no exceptions for the mega-facilities, to find better ways to educate people as to the magnificent nature of these animals that do not require the animals to be held captive, improving existing facilities - marine mammals really do die at a very high rate in captivity (there was an old expose called Dying to Please, if anyone is interested in this), and respecting marine mammals as the incredible creatures they really are, not trying to fit them into a human mold.


Your points are very strong and valid and I appreciate them. I also do agree that yeah their *ahem* captivity doesn't leave a whole lot of room for movement (as far as they're used to) and the killing of the handler was more likely due to the animal snapping under intense frustration (it was captured from the wild) at it's inability to escape and do whatever is natural for it. 
However big money is being made in showcasing these animals and so until it becomes a losing capital venture for those making that big money, it's not going to change anytime soon. That or if laws are enacted where capturing these animals much less having them in captivity becomes a criminal offense. 
Same goes with every wild animal in captivity all across the planet. People pay to see these animals because for the most part they cannot afford to visit them in their natural habitat. Opportunists using the guise of naturalists and preservation capitalize upon this desire and take the time and expense to bring these animals to us. 
Granted however there is a plus side. These animals are protected from poachers who are the other extreme of opportunists. The Java Rhino species in Vietnam was recently declared extinct from loss of habitat and poaching. Surviving species are minimal in the wild and others are in zoos around the world. 
If anything their genes will be preserved in hopes that DNA cloning will make it possible to re-instate these and other animals back where they belong... if it hasn't been turned into a suburb or wiped clean by deforestation. 
As for the cetaceans, keeping the oceans as clean as possible from our waste products and mishaps (*ahem*  Valdez and BP and recently in NZ) and stop illegal hunting... their survival is in question.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 28, 2011)

granfire said:


> Naturally it's the massive outcry how healthy horses don't just die.



Well healthy people do, why not horses

Jim Fixx, Bruce Lee, Euell Gibbons and there was a 36 year I knew who was an avid tennis player that that watched his diet incredibly closely and at 37... he died on the tennis court


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## granfire (Oct 28, 2011)

but yeah... they are not horses....



I know it's frustrating. People who live too long in the city lose touch with reality....


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 28, 2011)

This will likely get me into trouble



granfire said:


> I know it's frustrating. People who live too long in the city lose touch with reality....



Since we have a rather LARGE NYC contingent that is part of my department...... yes, yes I know


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## Ken Morgan (Oct 28, 2011)

There are an estimated 50 million HUMAN slaves still in the world, and while I appreciate and care for animals, human beings will still take precedent. How about PETA get up off their asses and go to some of these **** hole countries and protest the humans being kept as slaves? They take the easy route to the easy targets.


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## decepticon (Oct 28, 2011)

Based on my experience, some of these groups are actually much more enamored of controversy and media attention than they are of the cause they claim.

I remember one situation where I told members of a group that if they were going to protest a dolphin shipment, they should do it when the trucks were approaching the facility, prior to the animals being loaded onto the trucks, because the longer the animals were suspended in the slings, the more dangerous it was for them. The group leader flippantly told me that empty trucks didn't make for good media and that they would stop them after the loading, when the tv cameras could get shots of the flailing dolphins and their protesters. I had to call the local marine police to have them removed because my top priority was the animals' health, media or not.


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## Nomad (Oct 28, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> There are an estimated 50 million HUMAN slaves still in the world, and while I appreciate and care for animals, human beings will still take precedent. How about PETA get up off their asses and go to some of these **** hole countries and protest the humans being kept as slaves? They take the easy route to the easy targets.



Ken, have you not been paying attention?  PETA clearly, by statements from their own spokespeople, place the lives and well-being of animals far far above that of other people.  I thought this was understood.


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## granfire (Oct 29, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> There are an estimated 50 million HUMAN slaves still in the world, and while I appreciate and care for animals, human beings will still take precedent. How about PETA get up off their asses and go to some of these **** hole countries and protest the humans being kept as slaves? They take the easy route to the easy targets.




Ah, my friend. That takes a rational human being.
Among their ilk there is non of that to be found.
Through dark channels PETA has in the past  supported individuals who perpetrated terrorist acts with disregard for human life. 

(oh, and they don't really care for the animal's life either, they can very well die or be dead in the process. As long as the agenda is supported! You know, like dogs that get 'liberated' at shows then get away into traffic and such nice things...better dead is their motto)


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## MA-Caver (Nov 1, 2011)

UPDATE: Everyone now realizes finally how *STUPID* PETA is (well almost everyone... the members are still blinded). 
http://news.yahoo.com/peta-draws-fl...BzdGNhdANidXNpbmVzcwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3
PETA may claim to speak for the animals, but it has a whale of a problem when it comes to human communication.
 Law professors and African-American groups are criticizing the animal rights group for comparing whales being held at SeaWorld to &#8220;slaves.&#8221;
&#8220;For PETA to compare penning killer whales to human slavery would be  hysterical if it wasn&#8217;t so offensive,&#8221; continued Project 21 spokeswoman  Shelby Emmett. &#8220;Our ancestors were raped, whipped, taken from their  families, stripped of their religion and culture and defined as  property. This is a perfect example of how the left now defines  everything as a &#8216;civil rights movement&#8217; &#8212; diluting the history of  slavery and human cruelty. If our children are taught SeaWorld is the  equivalent to the plantation, how will they ever understand the evils of  slavery? Sadly, it seems that PETA, like the plantation owners of our  past, also think humans are animals.&#8221;


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## granfire (Nov 2, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> UPDATE: Everyone now realizes finally how *STUPID* PETA is (well almost everyone... the members are still blinded).
> http://news.yahoo.com/peta-draws-fl...BzdGNhdANidXNpbmVzcwRwdANzdG9yeXBhZ2U-;_ylv=3
> PETA may claim to speak for the animals, but it has a whale of a problem when it comes to human communication.
> Law professors and African-American groups are criticizing the animal rights group for comparing whales being held at SeaWorld to &#8220;slaves.&#8221;
> &#8220;For PETA to compare penning killer whales to human slavery would be  hysterical if it wasn&#8217;t so offensive,&#8221; continued Project 21 spokeswoman  Shelby Emmett. &#8220;Our ancestors were raped, whipped, taken from their  families, stripped of their religion and culture and defined as  property. This is a perfect example of how the left now defines  everything as a &#8216;civil rights movement&#8217; &#8212; diluting the history of  slavery and human cruelty. If our children are taught SeaWorld is the  equivalent to the plantation, how will they ever understand the evils of  slavery? Sadly, it seems that PETA, like the plantation owners of our  past, also think humans are animals.&#8221;



Ah, yeah, gotta love that.
I have run into folks liken horse slaughter (only horses, not any of the other beasties) to the Holocaust. No, it's not, not even close. 

Sadly, even slapping those people upside the head won't change a thing.


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## MA-Caver (Nov 2, 2011)

granfire said:


> Ah, yeah, gotta love that.
> Sadly, even slapping those people upside the head won't change a thing.


VERY true... but damn... wouldn't it make ya feel a whole lot better? :lol2:

We could even make a contest out of it... "How many slaps does it take to get a PETA to realize how STUPID they are? The fewer slaps win.


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## granfire (Nov 2, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> VERY true... but damn... wouldn't it make ya feel a whole lot better? :lol2:
> 
> We could even make a contest out of it... "How many slaps does it take to get a PETA to realize how STUPID they are? The fewer slaps win.



can I use a paddle? I am afraid my hand is not conditioned to dish out THAT many slaps!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2011)

granfire said:


> can I use a paddle? I am afraid my hand is not conditioned to dish out THAT many slaps!



Hammer fixes everything


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## Buka (Nov 2, 2011)

MA-Caver said:


> VERY true... but damn... wouldn't it make ya feel a whole lot better? :lol2:
> 
> We could even make a contest out of it... "How many slaps does it take to get a PETA to realize how STUPID they are? The fewer slaps win.



That's truth, right there.


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