# chin na



## auxprix (Jul 27, 2004)

I was paging through a chin na book the other day and was very impressed with what I saw. Is there a system out there that spends alot of time on these joint-locking techniques?


----------



## shesulsa (Jul 27, 2004)

Could you please post the name of the book and the author?

 Thanks in advance.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jul 27, 2004)

I don't know exactly what type of joint locks you were reading about but, Ju jitsu has quite a few joint locks, aikido, hapkido, and there are more I'm sure.


----------



## Tony (Jul 27, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Could you please post the name of the book and the author?
> 
> Thanks in advance.



Hi She Sulsa

Was the book that you were reading on Chin na called "Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na by Yang Jwing Ming? He has written many other Martial Arts books too so look out for him. There is also "Small Circle Jiu jitsu by Wally Jay. I was really impressed with a lot of the techniques in there especially the one where you bend a person's finger back forcing them down to the ground. That is such an easy technique and you don't have to be strong to do it either.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 27, 2004)

I have that book as well, its a very good book on Chin Na. Your going to find that Chin Na is primarily taught in CMA since it is basically CMA itself. There are other systems of joint locks and such, but Chin Na from that book is CMA. I love chin na, its so effective and your right, it doesn't take muscle to do it, thats what is so awesome about it. I dont know of any school that teaches only chin na, but many CMA style incorporate chin na into their classes. Many mantis schools do alot of chin na, while there are quite a few southern styles that use it as well. It really depends on the teacher and the schools focus.

7sm


----------



## lonecoyote (Jul 27, 2004)

I've heard that almost all chinese martial arts have chin na in them, although some instructors understand it better than others. Some systems I've heard have chin na joint locking techniques are: Praying Mantis, Hung gar, Choy li Fut, Shaolin, Taijiquan and others.


----------



## shesulsa (Jul 27, 2004)

Hwa Rang Do contains joint locks as well.


----------



## clfsean (Jul 27, 2004)

Qin na is found in almost every CMA out there, some more than others. The Chinese IMHO were big on tying you up & breaking something or locking you out to impress a point to you.

It's a skill that helps round out any CMA that should be focused on & worked just the way we work the non qin na basics of stepping, blocking, punching, kicking, etc... :whip:


----------



## pete (Jul 27, 2004)

Chin Na (or Qinna) according to Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming is neither the set up or the conclusion of the self defense scenario. 

 the set up is done by using your martial skills developed from a specific style.  for example Dr Yang teaches Shaolin White Crane and Tai Chi to stave off the initial attack and set up the Chin Na application.  

 the conclusion is held on the theory that the Chin Na application puts the attacker in a position of discomfort and restraint for the kill.  you cannot keep someone locked up forever, you may get tired or his friends may come along.. so once he's caught, you have to finish him off.  those techniques are typically outside the realm of Chin Na.

 Dr Yang has an intensive program of seminars at specific levels that follow the curriculum in his books and tapes... to feel is to believe.  if you have the opportunity to attend, don't pass it up. makes the books and tapes even more valuable and allows you to continue practice with insight.  his Tai Chi Chin Na was especially good.

pete


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 27, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Hi She Sulsa
> 
> Was the book that you were reading on Chin na called "Analysis of Shaolin Chin Na by Yang Jwing Ming? He has written many other Martial Arts books too so look out for him. There is also "Small Circle Jiu jitsu by Wally Jay. I was really impressed with a lot of the techniques in there especially the one where you bend a person's finger back forcing them down to the ground. That is such an easy technique and you don't have to be strong to do it either.



Great reference books!!!


----------



## RHD (Jul 27, 2004)

Here's a thread from a few months ago on the same topic:


http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12847

Maybe it will help.

Mike


----------



## Zujitsuka (Jul 27, 2004)

One of the best things that I learned from Dr. Yang's books is when he said, "Wrestling defeats striking, chin na defeats wrestling, and striking defeats chin na."  That is a profound statement that reminds us that no one thing is better than any other one thing, so...absorb what is useful.  Hmmm...I heard that somewhere before. :wink2:


----------



## Guro Harold (Jul 27, 2004)

:asian: 





			
				Zujitsuka said:
			
		

> One of the best things that I learned from Dr. Yang's books is when he said, "Wrestling defeats striking, chin na defeats wrestling, and striking defeats chin na."  That is a profound statement that reminds us that no one thing is better than any other one thing, so...absorb what is useful.  Hmmm...I heard that somewhere before. :wink2:


----------



## 7starmantis (Jul 27, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> Chin Na (or Qinna) according to Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming is neither the set up or the conclusion of the self defense scenario.
> 
> the set up is done by using your martial skills developed from a specific style. for example Dr Yang teaches Shaolin White Crane and Tai Chi to stave off the initial attack and set up the Chin Na application.
> 
> ...


Very well said, you understand it well. I was just being lazy and didn't want to type it all out, so I'm glad you did. That is a very important point, however, there are chin na techniques for ending a situation, but those are usually very destructive or dangerous. Most are like you said, used to control quickly and set up for the "kill" if you will.

7sm


----------



## grappling_mandala (Jul 27, 2004)

Tony said:
			
		

> Hi She Sulsa
> "Small Circle Jiu jitsu by Wally Jay. I was really impressed with a lot of the techniques in there especially the one where you bend a person's finger back forcing them down to the ground. That is such an easy technique and you don't have to be strong to do it either.



That's not a bend, it's a circular PULLING/PUSHING that works directly against the base of the finger, when you ridge the base of your hand at 90 degrees to the finger. If you just try to bend back someones fingers they'll just pull them out and give ya a smack. I train at the small circle acadamy once a month here in portland with Sensei Stan Miller, I am familiar with the techniques in that book.


----------



## grappling_mandala (Jul 27, 2004)

Zujitsuka said:
			
		

> One of the best things that I learned from Dr. Yang's books is when he said, "Wrestling defeats striking, chin na defeats wrestling, and striking defeats chin na."  That is a profound statement that reminds us that no one thing is better than any other one thing, so...absorb what is useful.  Hmmm...I heard that somewhere before. :wink2:



Yeah like Renzo's book where he covers a 3 part range strategy.


----------



## grappling_mandala (Jul 27, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> Chin Na (or Qinna) according to Dr Yang, Jwing-Ming is neither the set up or the conclusion of the self defense scenario.
> 
> ....the conclusion is held on the theory that the Chin Na application puts the attacker in a position of discomfort and restraint for the kill.  you cannot keep someone locked up forever, you may get tired or his friends may come along.. so once he's caught, you have to finish him off.  those techniques are typically outside the realm of Chin Na.
> 
> pete



Good stuff. I would question the idea of 'holding' with a chin-na technique, the ability to flow into a direction which locks is also ability to follow thru with that motion. 

I don't personally seek to put my training partners in 'positions of discomfort or restraint'. A hold is just a bookmark... but with 'locks'... If they're not tapping when I execute a submission then i didn't do it right. There no such thing as a hold that involves joints that can't be turned into a submission. There are 'holddowns' that involve positional dominance, but locks are locks. They are meant to break joints. 

You can be nice to people, that's what taps are for. But when the rubber hits the road, and you weave into locks, you gotta know what works and what doesn't. if you always practice just 'controlling' or 'restraining' ... you won't follow thru in a fight. If you fight someone who understands positional dominance, you won't be in control any more.

Just my jaded .03 cents. Not meaning to offend. 

Dave


----------



## auxprix (Jul 28, 2004)

Just here to give thank yous to everyone. sorry I haven't been around to get back to everyone, I've been really busy lately.I don't remember the authors name, but the publication was called "Chin na." If I'm ever back in a bookstore, I'll look it up again.

I'm interested in Chin Na, specifically, because I have good experience with japanese grappling already. I'd like to  cross over to the CMAs to get a different perspective.


----------



## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 30, 2004)

There is so much to Chin Na (Qin Na,Kum Na) that the locks are just the begining. Chin Na also has strikes,kicks,throws,chokes etc...

Unlike BJJ or Jiu Jitsu most Chin Na techniques go directly for the break ,and not to hold or sub someone. Most Chin Na locks are not meant to be held long.

Every style of CMA usually has some Chin Na ,but there are those that focus on it more than others. Eagle Claw,Taiji,Praying Mantis are some that come to mind.

jeff


----------



## JPR (Aug 6, 2004)

In watching Dr. Yang's material, he seems to apply Chin Na for holding/controling or breaking.  His way of expressing some ideas amuses me.  My favorites include, "you do this, now you can take him home.", "You really want to control someone you get him all the way to the ground.  Now you can talk to him.", and "Do this, it is very painful." 

Obviously, some techniques do not work well for controlling.  Most, however, seem to be applicable (especially after you ground someone).  He makes the transition to breaking by simply pointing out, "if he is an enemy, jerk it.  You will do damage to the joint."  He also points out the places you can strike after you have the lock.  Last quote, "In every Chin Na there is a killing."

All around fun stuff.

JPR


----------



## pete (Aug 6, 2004)

JPR said:
			
		

> In watching Dr. Yang's material, he seems to apply Chin Na for holding/controling or breaking.  His way of expressing some ideas amuses me.  My favorites include, "you do this, now you can take him home.", "You really want to control someone you get him all the way to the ground.  Now you can talk to him.", and "Do this, it is very painful."



my favorites are: when locking fingers "one finger is good, two fingers also good", and when using your free hand to enhance the lock... "one hand is for showing off"



			
				JPR said:
			
		

> Obviously, some techniques do not work well for controlling.



which ones?  i've been to a couple of his seminars and have been training with a study group run by one of his senior students in ny. i haven't felt any that don't work when done correctly.  maybe i can help, or at least find an answer for you...

pete


----------

