# Lok Yiu and Leung Ting - differences?



## Beginner's Mind (Feb 16, 2009)

Hi all,

Please, could anybody say a few words or point to some articles about differences between these two lineages' styles? 

Thank you!


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## geezer (Feb 17, 2009)

Beginner's Mind said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Please, could anybody say a few words or point to some articles about differences between these two lineages' styles?
> 
> Thank you!


 
Sorry, I can't help. I studied under Leung Ting, but I don't know anyone who studied under Lok Yiu. He was one of Grandmaster Yip's earliest students in Hong Kong along with Leung Sheung, right? And, Leung Ting was supposedly the last student to train directly under Grandmaster Yip. It would be very interesting to compare the two systems. I know Leung Ting felt that Grandmaster Yip's last period of instruction placed more emphasis on yielding before force. But to a large degree, this seems present in most WC. Anybody out there got any input on this?


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 17, 2009)

Can anyone tell me more about Lok Yiu lineage?


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## mook jong man (Feb 17, 2009)

I think Tsui Seung Tin , Leung Seung and Lok Yu would all be pretty similar in their teaching methods as these three all lived with Yip Man for several years while learning Wing Chun .

 I'm guessing if they were anything like Sigung Tsui they would teach a very sticky , controlling type of chi sau . Master Wong Shun Leung taught some of the forms slightly different and from what I hear the chi sau is more aggressive and a hit at any opportunity type of thing .

 I don't know much about master Ting only what I have heard from people on this forum .


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## KamonGuy2 (Feb 18, 2009)

geezer said:


> Sorry, I can't help. I studied under Leung Ting, but I don't know anyone who studied under Lok Yiu. He was one of Grandmaster Yip's earliest students in Hong Kong along with Leung Sheung, right? And, Leung Ting was supposedly the last student to train directly under Grandmaster Yip. It would be very interesting to compare the two systems. I know Leung Ting felt that Grandmaster Yip's last period of instruction placed more emphasis on yielding before force. But to a large degree, this seems present in most WC. Anybody out there got any input on this?


 Actually I was at Yip Man's bedside when he went and he did a bit of last minute chi sao with me so technically I was the last to train with him...

Jeez, does it really matter who trained with Yip Man last? I would be more concerned about who Yip Man considered the best he trained etc, and even then I'd give it about a seconds thought

Leung Ting is known for his BS and outrageous claims (as is William Cheung)

Lok Yiu seems pretty down to earth but I haven't had any one on one training with him so I couldn't give you a fair appraisal of the man or his teaching

Anyone who has trained for as long as they have SHOULD know something but whether it is any good is beyond me


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## geezer (Feb 18, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Actually I was at Yip Man's bedside when he went and he did a bit of last minute chi sao with me so technically I was the last to train with him...


 
Nonsense! I can easily top that. _Grandmaster Yip appeared to me in a dream_ just last night and taught me a _secret technique_. Although I'm not quite sure I understand it. He looked right at me and shouted something in Cantonese that sounded like "Gwai-lo! Gwai-lo!" Then he showed me the special movement. It looked a bit like an uppercut as he vigorously thrust his fist upward past his other arm while making a loud rasberry sound. I am currently trying to figure out what it all means.



Kamon Guy said:


> Jeez, does it really matter who trained with Yip Man last?


 
_"Last"_ no. But _"later"_ yes, in the sense that it would be interesting to see if there are differences between what Grandmaster Yip taught his earliest students in Hong Kong versus his last group of students. I think the comparison would be more meaningful if you could compare _several_ direct students from each period, since as you rather bluntly pointed out, it is hard to take what _individuals_ say about themselves at 100% face value. By the same token, it would also be interesting to compare both of these groups to the surviving practitioners who learned from Grandmaster Yip in Fatshan (Fo'hsan). Actually this has been done in the book, _The Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun_, but as the author is one of the personalities in question, the conclusions, though interesting, are less than objective.


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## AceHBK (Feb 18, 2009)

geezer said:


> _"Last"_ no. But _"later"_ yes, in the sense that it would be interesting to see if there are differences between what Grandmaster Yip taught his earliest students in Hong Kong versus his last group of students. I think the comparison would be more meaningful if you could compare _several_ direct students from each period, since as you rather bluntly pointed out, it is hard to take what _individuals_ say about themselves at 100% face value. By the same token, it would also be interesting to compare both of these groups to the surviving practitioners who learned from Grandmaster Yip in Fatshan (Fo'hsan). Actually this has been done in the book, _The Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun_, but as the author is one of the personalities in question, the conclusions, though interesting, are less than objective.


 
For curosity's sake, what did the author say?


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## geezer (Feb 18, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> For curosity's sake, what did the author say?


 
Well the author is GM Leung Ting, and he had _quite a bit to say_. Which is why it's a pretty good sized book. It's pieced together in a amateurish way that reminds me of a high school year book, but it is full of information Leung Ting gained first hand from his trips to Fatshan (Fo'shan) in the 1980s and 90s when a number of old students from Grandmaster Yip's early days were still alive. Leung Ting was able to use his celebrity as a renowned exponent of Hong Kong Wing Tsun/Chun, and his ability as a native speaker of Cantonese to access information that would be available to very few others. Of course the book is written from his personal perspective and is far from objective. But nevertheless it is of unique interest to anyone researching the origins of WC/WT. 

Regarding the differences between the early Fatshan and later Hong Kong versions of the WC/WT system, Leung Ting found what he felt to be important elements in each that were absent from the other. Eventually this led him to make some minor revisions in his teaching of the forms to include these techniques. Among the techniques changed or added were: Including a "reverse huen sau" movement to Siu Nim tau and Chum Kiu, altering some of the 12 elbows and adding kwun-sau and double-punching movements to Biu Tze, and so forth. One thing that impressed me was the level of research and years contemplation he invested before making these relatively small changes in the forms. Say what you will about the man, but he takes the integrity of the art _very_ seriously.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

My Question is can Leung Ting fight with his WC. I know Yip Man could, Bruce Lee could and so could Wong Shun Leung. But Leung Ting could he fight with his WC?





geezer said:


> Well the author is GM Leung Ting, and he had _quite a bit to say_. Which is why it's a pretty good sized book. It's pieced together in a amateurish way that reminds me of a high school year book, but it is full of information Leung Ting gained first hand from his trips to Fatshan (Fo'shan) in the 1980s and 90s when a number of old students from Grandmaster Yip's early days were still alive. Leung Ting was able to use his celebrity as a renowned exponent of Hong Kong Wing Tsun/Chun, and his ability as a native speaker of Cantonese to access information that would be available to very few others. Of course the book is written from his personal perspective and is far from objective. But nevertheless it is of unique interest to anyone researching the origins of WC/WT.
> 
> Regarding the differences between the early Fatshan and later Hong Kong versions of the WC/WT system, Leung Ting found what he felt to be important elements in each that were absent from the other. Eventually this led him to make some minor revisions in his teaching of the forms to include these techniques. Among the techniques changed or added were: Including a "reverse huen sau" movement to Siu Nim tau and Chum Kiu, altering some of the 12 elbows and adding kwun-sau and double-punching movements to Biu Tze, and so forth. One thing that impressed me was the level of research and years contemplation he invested before making these relatively small changes in the forms. Say what you will about the man, but he takes the integrity of the art _very_ seriously.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> My Question is can Leung Ting fight with his WC. I know Yip Man could, Bruce Lee could and so could Wong Shun Leung. But Leung Ting could he fight with his WC?


 
I have the book Dynamic Wing Tsun by Dr .Leung Ting it comes with a big colour poster of him doing a side kick lol .But in the book he says when he started promoting his art in Germany he accepted challenges , and in Denmark he was challenged by a Karateka named A.S Sharif who later became his student.

 Also in Yugoslavia when he was starting up there in Begrade Dr Leung Ting and one of his headstudents a man by the name of Milan Prosenica had to defeat 12 challengers within 8 days . 
So I'm guessing that the man can probably fight .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 18, 2009)

Todah Rabah for your answer. I just learn something today thankyou.





mook jong man said:


> I have the book Dynamic Wing Tsun by Dr .Leung Ting it comes with a big colour poster of him doing a side kick lol .But in the book he says when he started promoting his art in Germany he accepted challenges , and in Denmark he was challenged by a Karateka named A.S Sharif who later became his student.
> 
> Also in Yugoslavia when he was starting up there in Begrade Dr Leung Ting and one of his headstudents a man by the name of Milan Prosenica had to defeat 12 challengers within 8 days .
> So I'm guessing that the man can probably fight .


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## geezer (Feb 18, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I have the book Dynamic Wing Tsun by Dr .Leung Ting it comes with a big colour poster of him doing a side kick lol .But in the book he says when he started promoting his art in Germany he accepted challenges , and in Denmark he was challenged by a Karateka named A.S Sharif who later became his student.
> 
> Also in Yugoslavia when he was starting up there in Begrade Dr Leung Ting and one of his headstudents a man by the name of Milan Prosenica had to defeat 12 challengers within 8 days .
> So I'm guessing that the man can probably fight .



Damn straight Leung Ting  can fight. In his youth, apparently he was a little too fond of fighting. But at any rate, his WT system has produced a number of tough fighters. Some of the better known names are Emin Boztepe and Victor Gutierrez (check their stuff out on Youtube). WT Master Keith Kernspecht in Germany has produced a number of very tough fighters (Emin was one of his boys before going out on his own). I'd forgotten about the old Dynamic Wing Tsun book... you know I'm in that! What a laugh, since I'm no where near the level of those guys. Oh well...


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## AceHBK (Feb 18, 2009)

Geezer...thanks!

As a side note Leung was the style chereographer for the old Shaw Brothers movie.......The Five Deadly Venoms.


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## mook jong man (Feb 18, 2009)

geezer said:


> Damn straight Leung Ting can fight. In his youth, apparently he was a little too fond of fighting. But at any rate, his WT system has produced a number of tough fighters. Some of the better known names are Emin Boztepe and Victor Gutierrez (check their stuff out on Youtube). WT Master Keith Kernspecht in Germany has produced a number of very tough fighters (Emin was one of his boys before going out on his own). I'd forgotten about the old Dynamic Wing Tsun book... you know I'm in that! What a laugh, since I'm no where near the level of those guys. Oh well...


 
What photo are you in , I've got the book right next to me . Your a celebrity mate, that beats mine your in a book . I'm only in a couple of photos of an old Aussie martial arts mag grabbing my Sifu in a bear hug , where he almost broke my toe I might add .


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 19, 2009)

Are there any videos of Leung Ting Fighting?


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## geezer (Feb 19, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Are there any videos of Leung Ting Fighting?


 
You know I've looked around on Youtube, etc. and I really haven't found much on any of the higher ranked WC/WT/ VT Masters fighting. Except for William Cheung getting beat-up by a young Emin Boztepe...and that clip is like 18 or 20 years old. Whatever fights those older Chinese students of Grandamaster Yip got into... well no one was carrying around a videocam in those days. Too bad. Can you imagine seeing footage of guys at that level going at it?!?


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## geezer (Feb 19, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> *What photo are you in* , I've got the book right next to me . Your a celebrity mate, that beats mine your in a book . I'm only in a couple of photos of an old Aussie martial arts mag grabbing my Sifu in a bear hug , where he almost broke my toe I might add .



I had to dig out my old copy of the book, dated 1985, to check. I'm in there in a couple of places--on page 21 in the shot of our original group from Arizona in 1980 (the blond haired kid in the white tee-shirt standing behind and to the right of Leung Ting), in the 1985 "USA Headquarters" group photo on page 33, and demonstrating gaun-sau and punch, on pages 80-81, and demonstrating pak-sau and punch on pages 117-18. I don't know if those photos are in the latest editions because I eventually became inactive in the WT organization. I vaguely recall when they took those shots. Leung Ting was telling me to flex and look strong for the picture, and_ at the same time_ to relax and do it right! Talk about impossible. Leung Ting is a real ham in front of the camera. As others have mentioned, he was involved in the production/fight directing, and even acting in some old Hong Kong kung-fu movies, and it really shows in some of the photos in his books. Really exaggerated "hammed-up expressions. Too funny!


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## mook jong man (Feb 19, 2009)

geezer said:


> I had to dig out my old copy of the book, dated 1985, to check. I'm in there in a couple of places--on page 21 in the shot of our original group from Arizona in 1980 (the blond haired kid in the white tee-shirt standing behind and to the right of Leung Ting), in the 1985 "USA Headquarters" group photo on page 33, and demonstrating gaun-sau and punch, on pages 80-81, and demonstrating pak-sau and punch on pages 117-18. I don't know if those photos are in the latest editions because I eventually became inactive in the WT organization. I vaguely recall when they took those shots. Leung Ting was telling me to flex and look strong for the picture, and_ at the same time_ to relax and do it right! Talk about impossible. Leung Ting is a real ham in front of the camera. As others have mentioned, he was involved in the production/fight directing, and even acting in some old Hong Kong kung-fu movies, and it really shows in some of the photos in his books. Really exaggerated "hammed-up expressions. Too funny!


 
I found your pictures , you looked like a young whippersnapper . How old were you there ? I always wondered why the people in that book looked a little bit tense and had very stern expressions , now I know why, its because Leung Ting was telling you to flex and look strong for the camera .
 Flexed muscles not withstanding you still exibit perfect posture and correctness of technique in those photos and they are something you can be proud of and will be able to show the grandchildren.


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## larry (Feb 23, 2009)

There are many videos of leung ting doing devastating chi sao.  If you understand what you are looking at while studying various wing chun films, you will see variations in techniques.  If you look at yip man films you will see correct application with power.  There are also smaller circle movements of those techniques.  Within each technique of the forms, there are many ways that they can each be applied.  A deeply rooted sticking application of these is devastating in combat. Many teachers have a favorite technique as well as a favorite way of form style, and that is what they will pass on.  Augustine Fong said that wing chun is perfect already like the circle.  If you change it then it is no longer a circle and therefore not wing chun.  Leung Sheung was greatly impressed by Yip Man's power when he first met him when Man was in his fifties.  He later told his own students that he would be happy with one third of Yip Man's power even though he was himself famous for not being able to be moved. ...........Ask yourself "What am I doing/feeling in this technique and how does it apply?"  When you feel that you have mastered it then go back to the beginning.  You will always be inspired with different revelations, and you will grow stronger,properly.  LCL


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 23, 2009)

Do you believe WC is a perfect circle and has no need for outside arts to enhance it like Brazilian Jijitsu or some other ground game?


Do you think Leung Ting or Yip Man could not be moved by a grappler?




larry said:


> There are many videos of leung ting doing devastating chi sao. If you understand what you are looking at while studying various wing chun films, you will see variations in techniques. If you look at yip man films you will see correct application with power. There are also smaller circle movements of those techniques. Within each technique of the forms, there are many ways that they can each be applied. A deeply rooted sticking application of these is devastating in combat. Many teachers have a favorite technique as well as a favorite way of form style, and that is what they will pass on. Augustine Fong said that wing chun is perfect already like the circle. If you change it then it is no longer a circle and therefore not wing chun. Leung Sheung was greatly impressed by Yip Man's power when he first met him when Man was in his fifties. He later told his own students that he would be happy with one third of Yip Man's power even though he was himself famous for not being able to be moved. ...........Ask yourself "What am I doing/feeling in this technique and how does it apply?" When you feel that you have mastered it then go back to the beginning. You will always be inspired with different revelations, and you will grow stronger,properly. LCL


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## yak sao (Feb 23, 2009)

i've seen Leung Ting taken down by a grappler on You tube but he was relaxed and came out of it very quickly and was back on his feet. I've seen Emin Boztepe hit, but he went on to totally dominate the person who hit him.
No one will ever get so good that they can't be hit or taken to the ground, but I think you stand a much better chance of succeeding by studying a system such as WT/WC that gives you a very broad base for understanding fighting. Granted, BJJ has  a better ground game, Fillipino arts have a better weapons game, yada yada, but overall WT/Wc teaches you how to fight and I think overall, you're better off going into a self defense situation knowing what you are going to do because you have spent countless hours training it, than taking the cherry picking approach and doing a little of this from one system and a little of that from another.


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## geezer (Feb 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Do you believe WC is a perfect circle and has no need for outside arts to enhance it like Brazilian Jijitsu or some other ground game?
> 
> 
> Do you think Leung Ting or Yip Man could not be moved by a grappler?


 
I believe this was directed to Larry, but here's my two cents anyway: I often heard Leung Ting say that Wing Tsun was a _complete_ martial art.
That is to say that it has everything you need to defend yourself, including effective responses to long and short range fighting, grappling, throws, and groundfighting. 

As for myself, I believe there is some truth to that position. A really, really good WC/WT man can handle himself in a wide variety of situations, not just standup percussive infighting. And I believe that in their prime, Great Grandmaster Yip and _all_ his better students, including Leung Ting, would have given any attacker a tough time.

Now having said that, I still practice Escrima as well as WT, and still hope to find time to learn some BJJ... old as I am. But that's just me.


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## Beginner's Mind (Feb 23, 2009)

I was wondering when this would come up.


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## AceHBK (Feb 23, 2009)

Beginner's Mind said:


> I was wondering when this would come up.


 
Im tired of seeing the topic quite frankly.  There are *too many threads* on this and there is no need to turn this thread into it.


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## bs10927 (Feb 23, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Do you believe WC is a perfect circle and has no need for outside arts to enhance it like Brazilian Jijitsu or some other ground game?
> 
> 
> Do you think Leung Ting or Yip Man could not be moved by a grappler?



uh-oh...:xtrmshock


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## bs10927 (Feb 23, 2009)

Beginner's Mind said:


> I was wondering when this would come up.



yes!  and so it begins.....lol


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## geezer (Feb 23, 2009)

bs10927 said:


> yes! and so it begins.....lol


 
At first I didn't catch what you guys were warning about. No problem. If this thread turns into another one of those obnoxius, "My sifu can whup your sifu" arguments, or "My WC is better than yours" rants, _I'll just bail._  Meanwhile, I'll hang around. Call me naive, but lately we've had a pretty respectful dialogue around here. Guess we'll see soon enough, eh?


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## AceHBK (Feb 23, 2009)

geezer said:


> At first I didn't catch what you guys were warning about. No problem. If this thread turns into another one of those obnoxius, "My sifu can whup your sifu" arguments, or "My WC is better than yours" rants, _I'll just bail._ Meanwhile, I'll hang around. Call me naive, but lately we've had a pretty respectful dialogue around here. Guess we'll see soon enough, eh?


 
Ahh...Grandmaster Almightyness Geezer feels the glass is half full.


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## geezer (Feb 23, 2009)

AceHBK said:


> Ahh...Grandmaster Almightyness Geezer feels the glass is half full.



Damn you, Ace. I just read your comment and snorted my drink out my nose again. This time it was OJ. Do you have any idea how much that burns???


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## AceHBK (Feb 23, 2009)

geezer said:


> Damn you, Ace. I just read your comment and snorted my drink out my nose again. This time it was OJ. Do you have any idea how much that burns???



LOL!!

:lfao:


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## Beginner's Mind (Feb 24, 2009)

I feel I must stress that, when I started this thread, I didn't want to compare Leung Ting to Lok Yiu lineages in terms who can kick more backside. I'm just interested what the differences between the two branches are, in case someone has trained both.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Ha Ha I don't think anyone on the board studies Lok Yiu lineage...I coud be wrong?




Beginner's Mind said:


> I feel I must stress that, when I started this thread, I didn't want to compare Leung Ting to Lok Yiu lineages in terms who can kick more backside. I'm just interested what the differences between the two branches are, in case someone has trained both.


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## Beginner's Mind (Feb 25, 2009)

Well, I study the Lok Yiu lineage.  But I know very little about Leung Ting's style. I've seen a few clips and demonstrations. I couldn't recognize a Leung Ting or a Lok Yiu student by his stance, techniques...


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Okay Beginners Mind is Lok Yiu disciple...


Are there any Leung Ting's Disciples?





Beginner's Mind said:


> Well, I study the Lok Yiu lineage.  But I know very little about Leung Ting's style. I've seen a few clips and demonstrations. I couldn't recognize a Leung Ting or a Lok Yiu student by his stance, techniques...


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Okay Beginners Mind is Lok Yiu disciple...
> Are there any Leung Ting's Disciples?


 
Leung Ting? Well, you know that's my background, _Yoshi._ I also briefly studied Augustine Fong's WC. He learned from Ho Kam Ming of Macau, who, in turn, was a student of Grandmaster Yip slightly later than Lok Yiu. But I don't how his technique compares to the early guys like Leung Sheung, Lok Yiu or Tsui Sheung Tin... or even if those three guys were very similar to each other. What sayest thou, _Mook?_


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## geezer (Feb 25, 2009)

Oh, there is something else that might be relevant here. Leung Ting was originally a student of Leung Sheung. They apparently did not get on well at all, and Leung Ting felt that Leung Sheung deliberately held back his training. 

Actually, it worked out pretty well for Leung Ting in the long run, since apparently Dai Si-hing Leung Sheung had a spat with Grandmaster Yip. Grandmaster Yip knew of the enmity between Leung Sheung and his student Leung Ting. So, in order to "put Leung Sheung in his place" Grandmaster Yip accepted Leung Ting as his own student for a brief time, as sort of a slap in the face to Leung Sheung, and not because he had any special interest in Leung Ting at that time. But whatever the reasons, the rest is history. Contested and disputed history, that is! LOL.

But at any rate, I granted Leung Ting's background, I can't help but wonder how much of his WT resembles Leung Sheung's and how much was changed after he learned from Grandmaster Yip in his final period.


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## mook jong man (Feb 25, 2009)

geezer said:


> What sayest thou, _Mook?_


 
Sorry man I've got nothing , I have never met anybody from Leung Sheung , or Lok Yiu lineages .

All I know is that Leung Sheung , Lok Yiu , and Tsui Seung Tin all lived together with Yip Man for several years . 

So I suppose being in close contact it is concievable that their methods might be similar , but this is strictly conjecture on my part.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 25, 2009)

Well what about Sil Lim Tau


Lets look at how they perform Sil Lim Tau differently

Tsui Seung




 

Do you guys got any videos of the following people?

Leung Ting


Lok Yiu


Leung Sheung




mook jong man said:


> Sorry man I've got nothing , I have never met anybody from Leung Sheung , or Lok Yiu lineages .
> 
> All I know is that Leung Sheung , Lok Yiu , and Tsui Seung Tin all lived together with Yip Man for several years .
> 
> So I suppose being in close contact it is concievable that their methods might be similar , but this is strictly conjecture on my part.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Feb 26, 2009)

I'm not sure, but I think one of the people my Sigung trained with/under wasLok Yiu. Here are some videos so you can judge for yourself:





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPfJqkQ3nCw&feature=related





 
You can find a lot of examples of WT on youtube.

There are diffrences for sure but nothing drastic. Not like some difrences I've seen when comparing Ip Man lineage to non Ip Man lineage.


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