# Difficult Techs.



## Shodan

(1)  Which technique has been the most difficult for you to learn and/or practice and why?

(2) Which technique is your least favorite and why?


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## psi_radar

1) Circling the Storm

It's not a technique, it's a form!

2) Marriage of the Rams

Also known as the "Rockette" or "Stooges" technique. We just sort of get that one out of the way in the line. Silly. Almost tied with "Escape from the Storm," also known as "The Groin-slap of Death."


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## jfarnsworth

1)  Piercing Lance, Circles of Protection, Circling Windmills, Ext. to Obscure Sword, Twist of Fate, Unfolding the Dark

2) By far, Unfolding the Dark. 
reason: I just have a hard time with the whole tech.:shrug:


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## jeffkyle

Scraping Hoof.  I have never liked this technique, simply because i am skinny and no matter how hard I try to become one with gravity it is usually easy for the attacker just to pick me up and throw me around.

There are more, I just can't think right now....:shrug:


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## michaeledward

On one of his entries, I'm with Jason .... I had 'Twist of Fate' on a reply earlier today ... but then I didn't post. It really is a pain to try and run at speed ... somebody could get hurt.

Oh, Yeah ... and there will be no running with scissors!

Oddly, I don't think Circles of Protection is all that difficult. Different strokes .. right ?

Mike


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## Rick Wade

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> *
> 
> (2) Which technique is your least favorite and why? *



Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs.  And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.

Rick


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## satans.barber

> _Originally posted by Shodan _
> (1)  Which technique has been the most difficult for you to learn and/or practice and why?



Flashing Mace, because twirling round in the middle just makes me start to lose my sense of perspective, and then twirling back again send it right out of the window! I like to keep my eye on what I'm aiming for!



> (2) Which technique is your least favorite and why? [/B]



Scraping Hoof, because, well, it's crap.

Ian.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

> Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs. And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.



Rick:  Do you do this technique against a step-through punch or a reverse punch?  
If you do it against a reverse punch, step with your left leg inside their right leg when you block.  
If you do it against a step through punch, try checking their width with your left knee against their right as you block.  Then, reposition your left foot inbetween the legs as you grab the right knee.


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## rmcrobertson

Iggzactly. Never straddle the paddle. 
Strictly speaking, too, it sounds like your prob's with the attack...interesting, because this is the first kenpo tech that the system teaches that has what many would call a "realistic, "attack--a shuffle-punch, much like a boxer's punch, rather than a somewhat-idealized step-through...

As for "Scraping Hoovers, " try this:

a) make sure the attack is an attempted full nelson (the tech is going to be succeeded by Repeated devastation and Twirling Sacrifice);

b) as they start--only start-to bring your arms up, stomp left onto their left instep, then drag that foot back in to a narrow horse stance, shooting your arms down as though you were doing two downward-angled punches and arching your back/throwing your head back, like a kid throwing a tantrum;

c) pivot to your right into a right rear bow (a no-no pretty much everywhere else in kenpo), while keeping their left arm pinned and throwing a right elbow into their right forearm;

d) drag your right foot in to a right cat, then ball kick inside their right knee/turn the ball kick into a right side-kick just as it starts to sink in, and scrape and stomp down onto their right instep;

e) repeat on the other side, et voila! Le Hooves Scre-ping.

The ending's nasty too, allowing you to abbreviate the technique in reponse to the opponent and start breaking their legs/buckling them into the ground...

With this technique, absurdly-anal form really helps.

Hope this helps.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by Rick Wade _
> *Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs.  And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.
> 
> Rick *


Excuse me, but the Dance of Death tech is not designed to work against a step through punch. The idea is that the force of this guy's punch, off the back hand, forces him to then step through; so, you may either hit the groin or tag the inside of his thigh as he steps. Remember your never going to be attacked with a step through punch on the street, so there really isn't any hurry to train against them, or attempt techniques against them, for that matter.
Sean


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## rmcrobertson

Never? Interesting.


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## Touch Of Death

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *Never? Interesting. *


 Never!


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## rmcrobertson

Axly, you might very well get stepped through on, especially if you're backpedaling.

Or to quote Gene Wilder, "It.....could....WORK!!!"

And I seem to remember getting chewed out, recently and more than once, for refusing to accept that some things might just happen.

Nonetheless, "Dance of Death," in its ideal phase, works against a right shuffle-punch. No step-through.


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## Touch Of Death

Robert,
Given that a step through punch may happen at some tournament or at a karate school, I cant recomend forcing the technique "Dance of Death". I guess the best thing to do might be Back breaker or attacking mace.
Sean


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Never?  Maybe never a step-through straight punch, but possibly a step-through haymaker-roundhouse?


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## jeffkyle

ANYTHING is possible!!!!!!


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## Touch Of Death

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Never?  Maybe never a step-through straight punch, but possibly a step-through haymaker-roundhouse?


If a guy knows Karate I suppose he may do as he was trained; however, street fighters or just people in general are paying much more attaention to hitting you with there fist than to time the step through just right. Any high school football player is going to launch that haymaker right from where his feet are at the time he sees the shot. Just like he launches into the practice pads.
Sean


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## Brian Jones

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Never?  Maybe never a step-through straight punch, but possibly a step-through haymaker-roundhouse?



I don't think I would say never.  Dance of Death could work against a step through, you just have to make some adjustments.  It might not be the "ideal" technique to use in this situation, but it is conceivable that you could get it to work.

Brian Jones


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## rmcrobertson

I'd argue that it's just as fallacious to think that an attacker will never step through as it is to think that they always will--in fact, I'd argue, it's the same issue.

I'd also point out that Scraping Hooves is a good example of why never to say never, because we never, ever use a rear bow in kenpo--they're dangerous--and yet, there the damn thing is.


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## dcence

You guys are dead wrong.  The hardest technique to pull off in the EPAK curriculum is Circling Windmills bar-none.  In all the tests, in all the seminars they tried to teach it, whereever, including Pasadena, I never once saw it done where I would say -- "Yeah, that could work."  At some point you have to say, "Dude that technique isn't happening."

As far as Dance of Death, you better learn how to do it with the right leg forward, because you can't say to the guy half way through the technique when you finally realize their right leg is in front -- "Hey man, switch your legs, would you?"  Changing the attack is the easy way out.  Learn to pull the leg laterally, instead of straight up.  Also, make an adjustment step with your left leg moving down the circle as you lift and elbow.  Or after the reverse handsword to the goods, move into Brushing the Storm, sweeping the ankle with your right hand (same ting).

Have you ever contemplated -- "maybe the technique is the problem, not me"?  Just don't feel bad if a technique has never felt like you could really wear it.

Derek


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## dcence

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Remember your never going to be attacked with a step through punch on the street, so there really isn't any hurry to train against them, or attempt techniques against them, for that matter.
> Sean



Whenever I am teaching something against a step through punch, I try to remember that a punch can originate from the lead hand as easily as from the rear hand.  Step throughs allow that perspective.


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## satans.barber

The way I proactice Dance of Death, if the person throws a cross then I do teh technique normally, but if they throw a step through by mistake then I sweep them by taking my right leg behind their's and striking/controlling at the neck with my right hand (sort of like Tripping Arrow). If it was a step through roundhouse I'd need to do soemthing completely different though as we tend to block with a shuffle, parry and strike all at once rather than breaking it down, which only works on straight punches.

Ian.


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## Shodan

Does "Circling Windmills" have another name?  I have not heard of that one before- maybe I have not learned it yet.

  As for me, I've always had trouble with the last part of Sqautting Sacrifice (trying to keep hold of the leg while reaching for the arm or clothing), Twist of Fate (I have a hard time pulling this one off without throwing myself off balance!!), since knee surgery, landing solidly into the front twist stance after spinning around in Flight to Freedom and- I can't think of the name right now, but the one where you pick the attacker up and twirl around in a circle and smash them against a wall- that one is tough if the attacker is bigger and heavier than you are.  I think there's another version of the same tech. where you still pick them up, but just fall back onto them with an elbow smash or something- haven't done that one in a looooooonggggggggggg time.

  My least favorite tech. is probably Twist of Fate cuz I don't think it would be something I would ever attempt on an attacker- especially when there are other targets available.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## rmcrobertson

Huh. I don't find, "Circling Windmills," to be all that big a deal. Is the dummy shoving, then overhead punching, or what?

With, "Squatting," if I might suggest, the "grab," on the leg's very similar to the one in, "Dance of Death." Perhaps here too, the issue's with the dummying...does the dummy try to push up/get up, which triggers the left step-through?

And "Twirling..." well, a) lift with your legs, not with your back, and b) to get 'em up, try kneeling on their right leg a la, "Grip of Death;" c) if they're really big aand you're not, try just upending them...preferably, head first into a fire hydrant (OK, not while practicing).

"Twist," well, I've never loved it, largely because I'm worried for the dummy. Maybe make sure that you enforce the ol' Italian salute to cross their arms? Maybe use that side-kick at the thigh to ensure that you get 'em turned? Maybe fiddle and step outside rather than under the arms?

"Flight?" Well, I originally learned the technique with a twist too...maybe try forward bows, and scrape and anchor down on their arm as you cross out...

Pardon me for saying so, but many of the issues resolve with some haardd work on stance sets and forms...


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## MJS

dcence said:
			
		

> You guys are dead wrong.  The hardest technique to pull off in the EPAK curriculum is Circling Windmills bar-none.  In all the tests, in all the seminars they tried to teach it, whereever, including Pasadena, I never once saw it done where I would say -- "Yeah, that could work."  At some point you have to say, "Dude that technique isn't happening."
> 
> As far as Dance of Death, you better learn how to do it with the right leg forward, because you can't say to the guy half way through the technique when you finally realize their right leg is in front -- "Hey man, switch your legs, would you?"  Changing the attack is the easy way out.  Learn to pull the leg laterally, instead of straight up.  Also, make an adjustment step with your left leg moving down the circle as you lift and elbow.  Or after the reverse handsword to the goods, move into Brushing the Storm, sweeping the ankle with your right hand (same ting).
> 
> Have you ever contemplated -- "maybe the technique is the problem, not me"?  Just don't feel bad if a technique has never felt like you could really wear it.
> 
> Derek



Gotta agree with the above statement.  Being able to adapt to whats happening is a key factor.  Like Derek said, you can't ask the guy to switch legs, or arms, you need to react to what is happening at that time.

Mike


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## rmcrobertson

Sure, of course, Mike.

But the techniques are teaching tools. Be a little careful, maybe, about what you throw out of the system.


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## pete

... and, if I may add, equal care to what is kept in the system and its application...


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## rmcrobertson

Pete, how 'bout if we compromise on knowledgeable care of both?

I realize that this may get me called a fetishist by other folks than you, but so far, every single problem I've had with a technique traces back to my or somebody else's ignorance.

And I write this as somebody who has always thought of, "Piercing Lance," as kenpo's version of Snoopy on his doghouse doing his buzzard imitation...


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## dcence

Circling Windmills -- I actually like the first few moves, but come on, after 6 eye slices in a row, you have to ask yourself, is this really going to be effective?


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## rmcrobertson

Um...are all those eye slices? I'd thought that--in at least some of the applications--the later two, 'eye slices,' were grabs/manipulations of the hands that come up in response to the opening two eye slices...which, themselves, might be responses to a hand coming up in response to the right hammer/forearm?


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## Thesemindz

When I tried thinking of techniques I had trouble with, Circling Windmills never came to mind. We teach this technique as an opponent pushing you up against a wall and then executing a right step thru punch to your head to try to drill the back of your favorite skull into the drywall. Instead of checking his arm, try grabbing it at the wrist to hold him in place while you hammer him and slice him up.

The technique I've always had trouble with is Twist of Fate. Sometimes I can pull it off with ease, other times I couldn't get my opponent to twist for cash. I'll have to give Robert's suggestion a try. I've worked with some guys who are so stiff in the torso and hips, that they just don't twist like that. Just means I have to hit em somewhere else. Oh well, that's life.

-Rob


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## MJS

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Sure, of course, Mike.
> 
> But the techniques are teaching tools. Be a little careful, maybe, about what you throw out of the system.



Robert- I agree!  I wasnt talking about throwing anything out.  I was referring to making sure that the students can adapt to the situation, rather than stand there, scratching their head and saying, "Gee, what do I do now?  My attacker stepped in wrong."  I've seen that so many times, it isnt funny.  

Mike


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## Seig

MJS said:
			
		

> Robert- I agree! I wasnt talking about throwing anything out. I was referring to making sure that the students can adapt to the situation, rather than stand there, scratching their head and saying, "Gee, what do I do now? My attacker stepped in wrong." I've seen that so many times, it isnt funny.
> 
> Mike


When I was a youngster comming up through the colored ranks, my instructor always used to yell, "When in doubt, hit them!"  It seems to have worked.


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## MJS

Seig said:
			
		

> When I was a youngster comming up through the colored ranks, my instructor always used to yell, "When in doubt, hit them!"  It seems to have worked.



I agree!!  Doing something is definately better than doing nothing!

Mike


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## dcence

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Um...are all those eye slices? I'd thought that--in at least some of the applications--the later two, 'eye slices,' were grabs/manipulations of the hands that come up in response to the opening two eye slices...which, themselves, might be responses to a hand coming up in response to the right hammer/forearm?



They are six eye slices if you are doing it as written (which I have never considered binding....)   Here is what I have as far as it is written (see moves 7-10 below) which is how I was taught the technique -- and you know the quote from Yul Brenner in The Ten Commandments, "So let it be written; so let it be done" but we all know what happened to him in the movie....

 Again, I do like the first few moves of the technique, but I just can't see doing 6 eye slices.  Maybe it is good hand dexterity training, but I think Finger Set is better for that.  My personal opinion.

If you guys have changed that technique, let us know your version.
Thanks
Derek

Circling Windmills (Front- Two-Hand Push followed by a Right Punch) 
1. An attacker at 12 o'clock pushes you with both hands. 
2. Step back with your hands raised to say "I don't want any trouble." Your attacker follows with a right step-through punch. 
3. Step back into a left neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a right upward / extended outward block to the outside of your attacker's right arm. Simultaneous with this block, execute a left palm strike to your attacker's solar plexus. 
4. Circle your left hand counterclockwise as you claw up and out to your attacker's face. (Your arm should remain in a blocking position in order to keep your attacker's right arm in check.) Simultaneous with this strike, execute a right inward hammerfist to your attacker's left ribs. 
5. Have your right hand circle clockwise up and under your attacker's right arm into a right upward parry to expose the right side of your attacker's body. Simultaneous with this upward parry, execute a left inward hammerfist to your attacker's right ribs. 
6. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right neutral bow as you buckle the inside of your attacker's right knee. With this motion, have your left hand reverse its circle and check your attacker's right arm diagonally down and simultaneously execute a right inward hammerfist across the bridge of your attacker's nose. 
7. From the right neutral bow, execute a right outward horizontal finger slice (palm down) to your attacker's eyes. Follow immediately with a right inward horizontal finger slice (palm up) across your attacker's eyes. Execute another right outward horizontal finger slice to your attacker's eyes. (While slicing at the eyes, maintain your left hand against your attacker's right arm.) 
8. Pivot into a right front rotating twist stance as you execute a left inward raking backfist to the bridge of your attacker's nose. (Your right hand will now check your attacker's right arm to their body.) 
9. Pivot back into a right neutral bow as you execute a left outward horizontal finger slice across your attacker's eyes. 
10. Execute a right front crossover sweep to 7:30 to your attacker's right foot as you execute a left inward horizontal finger slice across your attacker's eyes. As you settle into your twist stance, execute a left outward horizontal finger slice across your attacker's eyes. 
11. Step your left foot to 7:30 into a right neutral bow facing 12 o'clock as your left hand grabs your attacker's right wrist to counter manipulate them. Simultaneously execute a right palm strike to your attacker's chin. 
12. Using your attacker's chin as a Pivot Point, execute a right inward five finger circular claw (counterclockwise motion) while you pivot into a right reverse bow. 
13. While maintaining the left hand grab to your attacker's right wrist, hook your right hand hand to the right and then back of your attacker's neck. Anchor your elbow and pull them down into a right heel hook. (Your arm acts as a brace and a sandwich.) 
14. Land forward from your kick and execute a right front crossover to 7:30 as you execute a right rising back knuckle strike to your attacker's face. 
15. Execute a left spinning rear kick to any available target on your attacker. 
16. Land in a left front crossover and cross out.


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## dcence

Thesemindz said:
			
		

> The technique I've always had trouble with is Twist of Fate. Sometimes I can pull it off with ease, other times I couldn't get my opponent to twist for cash. I'll have to give Robert's suggestion a try. I've worked with some guys who are so stiff in the torso and hips, that they just don't twist like that. Just means I have to hit em somewhere else. Oh well, that's life.
> 
> -Rob



When I tried to force this technique into the repertoire (which I don't any more) I used to do it as an add-on to Parting Wings and I would delete the slicing kick to the guy's hip and just do a forceful step through.  That kick is awkward, but sometimes what makes the technique work.

Derek


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## Shodan

Thanks for the description.......at what level did you all learn this tech?  I don't think I have been introduced to it yet.........unless it is in one of my forms and I just don't know it!!

  Thanks-
                 :asian:  :karate:


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## Michael Billings

Shodan said:
			
		

> Thanks for the description.......at what level did you all learn this tech? I don't think I have been introduced to it yet.........unless it is in one of my forms and I just don't know it!!
> 
> Thanks-
> :asian:  :karate:


  2nd Brown on the 24 Technique Chart #8
   1st Brown on the 16 Technique Chart #8

   It has the applications of some of the hand isolations in Long Form 4.

  See here Kenpo-Texas.com/Technique Reference for the lists of techniques and where it falls.

   -Michael


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## sumdumguy

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs.  And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.
> 
> Rick


Just a tip, take it for what it's worth? when stepping into your opp step into a close kneel with your left knee either pinning or positionally checking the opp's right leg. Use the checking leg as sort of a guideline to bring the opp's leg up and clear of your groin.
 :asian:


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## Shodan

Thank you for the reference Mr. Billings- I still don't see this tech. in any of my notes or belt lists.......maybe it has another name and I am just not recognizing or maybe it is not taught at my school or something- I don't recognize the attack or the defense.........weird!!   :asian:


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## Michael Billings

When I did Chinese Kenpo, circa 1979-1986, we did not have this technique either.  Go figure?

 -Michael


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## rmcrobertson

Well, I still say they don't have to all be finger slices.

More to the point, from Step 10 on, I was taught this:

With the left inverted outward "eye slice" (or whatever the hell that is), unwind to a right neutral bow, grabbing the opponent's left hand and pulling down together with a right downward hammer-fist to the bicep.

Front cross to 7:30, continuing to scrape down the opponent's right arm with your right hammer, and stepping out to a right neutral bow/delivering a right back-knuckle to their temple as you, "stretch," them out and down, pulling them forward into the strike. 

Run like crazy.


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## dcence

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Well, I still say they don't have to all be finger slices.
> 
> More to the point, from Step 10 on, I was taught this:
> 
> With the left inverted outward "eye slice" (or whatever the hell that is), unwind to a right neutral bow, grabbing the opponent's left hand and pulling down together with a right downward hammer-fist to the bicep.
> 
> Front cross to 7:30, continuing to scrape down the opponent's right arm with your right hammer, and stepping out to a right neutral bow/delivering a right back-knuckle to their temple as you, "stretch," them out and down, pulling them forward into the strike.
> 
> Run like crazy.



Ahhhh, Don't tell me you changed a technique!?!  Ahhh, heresy...! LOL, Just foolin' wich ya'.

I really think Mr. Parker was just trying to show how you can use clumps of Finger Set in a technique given the resemblance between the two including the circling five finger claw.


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## Doc

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs.  And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.
> 
> Rick


I'll fix that for you. artyon:


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## Michael Billings

Yepper, "Straddling the Paddle" is not a good thing.  Most Kenpo instructors I know, can ensure that this is not part of your technique.  I would take DOC up on his offer if you are anywhere near him.  

 There have also been some threads on this a long, long, long time ago.  You may want to try an advanced search on this website for some clues that would work for you.

 -Michael


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Excuse me, but the Dance of Death tech is not designed to work against a step through punch. The idea is that the force of this guy's punch, off the back hand, forces him to then step through; so, you may either hit the groin or tag the inside of his thigh as he steps. Remember your never going to be attacked with a step through punch on the street, so there really isn't any hurry to train against them, or attempt techniques against them, for that matter.
> Sean


OMG, WTF are you talking about?

Dark Lord


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## meni

Squatting sacrifice (rear bear hug - arms free),	Squeezing the peach (rear bear hug - arms pinned),and this i just can't stand Circling windmills (two-hand push followed by right punch with your back near a wall )


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## Touch Of Death

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> OMG, WTF are you talking about?
> 
> Dark Lord


you either know the attack or you don't. You FWBH basket ball Dunken CB. I don't know your abrev., so I thought I'd add a few of my own artyon: . :uhyeah: 
Sean :asian:


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## Chronuss

Squatting Sacrifice seems to be a reoccurring theme...it's especially a bear on opposite side...no pun intended.


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## Doc

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Touch'O'Death
> Excuse me, but the Dance of Death tech is not designed to work against a step through punch. ... Remember your never going to be attacked with a step through punch on the street, so there really isn't any hurry to train against them, or attempt techniques against them, for that matter.


Amen. The whole "step-through" thing is another clear example of things left over from the traditional influences in Hawaii in the early years. Ed Parker Sr. abandoned that in the sixties. However he left it in his commercial interpretation because it allowed students to "see" the attacker coming and gave them time to work out their technique responses and react appropriately. However he also thought that at some point in time, teachers would instruct their students without such accoutrements. He always referred to this methodology as a "phonetic attack." not a literal one. So in the elementary stages of learning "motion," it philosophically fits perfectly.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Amen, Doc.  It is much easier to teach a student to block a step through punch with plenty of telegraphed warning.  After they learn how to punch slower punches, you can ratchet the training up a notch and make 'em block shorter more realistic punches.


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## dcence

Chronuss said:
			
		

> Squatting Sacrifice seems to be a reoccurring theme...it's especially a bear on opposite side...no pun intended.



Just a little anecdote.  Years ago, I had a smart alec teenager come up from behind me, grab me in a bear hug (arms pinnned) and ask, "Okay, Mr. KarateMan, whatcha gonna do now?"  He found himself on his back ala Squatting Sacrifice.  He is now a blackbelt in the AKKI.


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## meni

dcence said:
			
		

> Just a little anecdote.  Years ago, I had a smart alec teenager come up from behind me, grab me in a bear hug (arms pinnned) and ask, "Okay, Mr. KarateMan, whatcha gonna do now?"  He found himself on his back ala Squatting Sacrifice.  He is now a blackbelt in the AKKI.



that's the way eduction with an explantion


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## Doc

jeffkyle said:
			
		

> Scraping Hoof.  I have never liked this technique, simply because i am skinny and no matter how hard I try to become one with gravity it is usually easy for the attacker just to pick me up and throw me around.
> 
> There are more, I just can't think right now....:shrug:



You know I can fix that for you. Guaranteed.


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## kenpo_cory

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I can fix that for you. Guaranteed.



Is it wisdom you can offer over the forum in a way that I would understand? I have the same problem. I'm too small.


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## kenpo3631

_*Originally Posted by Rick Wade
Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs. And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.

Rick*_



			
				sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Just a tip, take it for what it's worth? when stepping into your opp step into a close kneel with your left knee either pinning or positionally checking the opp's right leg. Use the checking leg as sort of a guideline to bring the opp's leg up and clear of your groin.
> :asian:



Rick, 
Simply correcting the footwork should do the trick. When stepping through your opponent while deliviering the elbow shot, step to *eleven o'clock. * 

Sumdumguy,
Getting into a close kneel stance shortens your base and will make you unstable. I agree that it will give you the groin coverage, but remember the opponent should be on his back and you should be holding his right leg (at the ankle) in your left hand. He's probably going to squirm and try to get off the ground, he'll probably try to kick you if you loose control of the right leg too. Having a shortened base will most likely cause you to loose your balance in that situation. To dangerous for my blood...


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## jeffkyle

Doc said:
			
		

> You know I can fix that for you. Guaranteed.



Biscuits and gravy!!!!


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## Doc

kenpo_cory said:
			
		

> Is it wisdom you can offer over the forum in a way that I would understand? I have the same problem. I'm too small.


I wish I could but it is a series of body postures, foot maneuvers, Index Braces, misalignment and alignment mechanisms that must be felt in person.


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## jeffkyle

Doc said:
			
		

> I wish I could but it is a series of body postures, foot maneuvers, Index Braces, misalignment and alignment mechanisms that must be felt in person.



Doc, 

Next time I make it to Sunny CA.  I will look you up.


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## kenpo_cory

Doc said:
			
		

> I wish I could but it is a series of body postures, foot maneuvers, Index Braces, misalignment and alignment mechanisms that must be felt in person.



I understand. Maybe someday I'll have the privilege of meeting you in person.  :asian:


----------



## rschoon

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> Dance of Death + I just don't like the way the oponents leg coems up between your legs.  And it is to hard to control that leg effectively.
> 
> Rick





If they throw a step thru punch then do a back to front switch and that will put you right where you should be.   For the leg coming up your centerline, try using a close nkeel stance there to block the "accidental" strike.


----------



## Rick Wade

I appreciate everyones advise with Dance of death, I still don't like it.  If any of you are attending the AKKI seminar next week look me up and we will work with it.  Until then I still don't like it.

Thanks
Rick


----------



## sumdumguy

[qoute]Sumdumguy,
Getting into a close kneel stance shortens your base and will make you unstable. I agree that it will give you the groin coverage, but remember the opponent should be on his back and you should be holding his right leg (at the ankle) in your left hand. He's probably going to squirm and try to get off the ground, he'll probably try to kick you if you loose control of the right leg too. Having a shortened base will most likely cause you to loose your balance in that situation. To dangerous for my blood...[/QUOTE]
Uh, no sorry, the closer to the center of the opponents body your are with the grab the more control you have. I grab just above the knee for two reasons. One, to have better balance and control. Two, to land the opponent on the back of their head/neck thereby canceling any "squirming" they might have previously thought about. And I am not sure how you do a close kneel but In my world it is simply a modified forward bow. Only the hieght is modified not the depth.  :asian:


----------



## Kenpo Yahoo

> If they throw a step thru punch then do a back to front switch and that will put you right where you should be.



Why the heck would you move yourself back to an inside position when your opponent has practically given you his back and cancelled several weapons?  This position won't last long, so while you are switching your opponent is regrouping his thoughts and efforts.  Why not recoil off the groin shot and slide up to the neck, even if you don't tag the guy good, the initial knee jerk reaction will drop their body weight right into the Sleeper.


----------



## dckenpo

Hello Rick;

This is in response to your dislike of the technique "Dance of Death".

I have seen a couple of variations on this technique. First off forgive me if someone else has previously posted these observations.

When working with other "Kenpo" guys, we tend to step pretty close face when executing the step through punch, so the leg between your groin becomes an issue. I would get around this a couple of ways.

1. You can use a step-around approach when advancing for the takedown (kinda like you would at the end of short/long form 4). You basically step around your opponents foot from the outside to the inside as you are advancing; kinda like moving up the circle in reverse. (no pun intended). If you can't find the step around let me know.

2. There is another way I like to execute this technique it seems to work very well for me. After you execute your block and are stepping forward for the groin strike, I prefix with a glancing heel of palm strike to my opponents front leg. (I apply the strike to the meaty middle part of the right leg, then letting the rebound energy move forward into the groin). This accomplishes several things. 1. It flat out friggin' hurts/pain is a check. 2. it lowers his height zone minimizing effective execution of other weapons. 3. It opens his base by spreading his right leg out enough that you can step right through and execute the takedown without worring about his leg coming up into your groin (since his legs will be outside both of yours/advantageous positioning).

To execute the strike, locate the nerve area above your knee on the inside of your thigh. (when you hit it, you will know it) That is the target area for the palm heel strike. After the strike allow your hand to move forward into the groin. I will admit you won't get as hard and direct a groin shot as you would without this prefix, but I think it actually works better since it helps you manipulate your opponents body to an advantageous position for you. (Note: you are already striking your opponent with an outward back-knuckle to the same target on his other leg when he is down. That may help you locate the nerve area.)

Play with it and let me know if you like it any better. I know the guys I work with hate when we do that technique now. 

Take care 

David.


----------



## rmcrobertson

I agree with the bit about switching to, say, "Sleeper," (or "Thundering Hammers"), or going around the leg.

I don't agree that a) close kneels are unstable (because in "Dance," among others, you use them in paart so you do not have to bend your back), b) you should "hold the opponent's right leg in your left hand," (which you won't be able to do; wrap your arm around their lower leg as they go over, just about exactly as in shown in that useless kata, Form 5).

Most of the probalm peeople have with "Dance," from what I've seen, is that they do not step through the opponent assertively, and then start fiddling with the technique/forgetting about stances, and then start claiming that  the thing don't work.


----------



## Touch Of Death

dckenpo said:
			
		

> Hello Rick;
> 
> This is in response to your dislike of the technique "Dance of Death".
> 
> I have seen a couple of variations on this technique. First off forgive me if someone else has previously posted these observations.
> 
> When working with other "Kenpo" guys, we tend to step pretty close face when executing the step through punch, so the leg between your groin becomes an issue. I would get around this a couple of ways.
> 
> 1. You can use a step-around approach when advancing for the takedown (kinda like you would at the end of short/long form 4). You basically step around your opponents foot from the outside to the inside as you are advancing; kinda like moving up the circle in reverse. (no pun intended). If you can't find the step around let me know.
> 
> 2. There is another way I like to execute this technique it seems to work very well for me. After you execute your block and are stepping forward for the groin strike, I prefix with a glancing heel of palm strike to my opponents front leg. (I apply the strike to the meaty middle part of the right leg, then letting the rebound energy move forward into the groin). This accomplishes several things. 1. It flat out friggin' hurts/pain is a check. 2. it lowers his height zone minimizing effective execution of other weapons. 3. It opens his base by spreading his right leg out enough that you can step right through and execute the takedown without worring about his leg coming up into your groin (since his legs will be outside both of yours/advantageous positioning).
> 
> To execute the strike, locate the nerve area above your knee on the inside of your thigh. (when you hit it, you will know it) That is the target area for the palm heel strike. After the strike allow your hand to move forward into the groin. I will admit you won't get as hard and direct a groin shot as you would without this prefix, but I think it actually works better since it helps you manipulate your opponents body to an advantageous position for you. (Note: you are already striking your opponent with an outward back-knuckle to the same target on his other leg when he is down. That may help you locate the nerve area.)
> 
> Play with it and let me know if you like it any better. I know the guys I work with hate when we do that technique now.
> 
> Take care
> 
> David.


I'll play. Abandon this tech if they complete the step through, and work a verticle "T" take down or a rear take down. Go back and find out what the attack is and live with it. All your methods of "righting" this tech involve moving from the outside to the inside. Or better said... out of the frying pan and in to the fire.
Respectfully,
Sean


----------



## parkerkarate

The hardest technique for me to learn was Peircing Lance because it was hard to figure out which way to take the person down and than stick the knife straight in their throat.

My least favorite technique is Taming the Mace because it is very hard to pull of the re-grab and slaming the person into the wall efficiently.


----------



## Doc

parkerkarate said:
			
		

> The hardest technique for me to learn was Peircing Lance because it was hard to figure out which way to take the person down and than stick the knife straight in their throat.


Consider yourself lucky.


----------



## Doc

Doc said:
			
		

> Amen. The whole "step-through" thing is another clear example of things left over from the traditional influences in Hawaii in the early years. Ed Parker Sr. abandoned that in the sixties. However he left it in his commercial interpretation because it allowed students to "see" the attacker coming and gave them time to work out their technique responses and react appropriately. However he also thought that at some point in time, teachers would instruct their students without such accoutrements. He always referred to this methodology as a "phonetic attack." not a literal one. So in the elementary stages of learning "motion," it philosophically fits perfectly.


In reading my own writing I thought is might be necessary to elaborate a bit more to clarify our curriculum. The "step through" is still utilized but primarily in weapons assaults, kicks, and in multiple strikes rom a single atacker as the real world would dictate. Further, we force students to respond to punches thrown from a position where the feet are usually equidistance from the victim from the beginning.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Doc said:
			
		

> In reading my own writing I thought is might be necessary to elaborate a bit more to clarify our curriculum. The "step through" is still utilized but primarily in weapons assaults, kicks, and in multiple strikes rom a single atacker as the real world would dictate. Further, we force students to respond to punches thrown from a position where the feet are usually equidistance from the victim from the beginning.


I think this is one of the single most important issues in Kenpo today.
Sean :asian: (www.iemat.com)


----------



## Nick Ellerton

being a beginner one of the hardest techniques for me to learn was glancing salute. Reason being after delivering the handsword i would have troublewith my oponant getting away from me and not being able to finish the technique but thats pretty much it from me for now its great being a beginner, so much to learn 

take care guys


----------



## Touch Of Death

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> being a beginner one of the hardest techniques for me to learn was glancing salute. Reason being after delivering the handsword i would have troublewith my oponant getting away from me and not being able to finish the technique but thats pretty much it from me for now its great being a beginner, so much to learn
> 
> take care guys


Refresh my memory, I may be thinking of the wrong tech, but I don't remember a handsword in glancing salute. Lets see:
1. Break
2. use left hand to pull opponent into glancing heel palm with right hand, then hook the head with right hand and pull opponent into...
3. right knee strike
4. Inward elbow (possible upward) as you step through, and cover.

Sean


----------



## Shodan

I learned Glancing Salute with the left outward handsword to the neck- simultaneous with the right knee.  After the right palm-heel to face, you crane around the right side of the opponent's neck with your right hand and frictional pull them forward into your left handsword and right knee.  It does make the last move hard to get cuz it sends them backwards.

  :asian:  :karate:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Refresh my memory, I may be thinking of the wrong tech, but I don't remember a handsword in glancing salute. Lets see:
> 1. Break
> 2. use left hand to pull opponent into glancing heel palm with right hand, then hook the head with right hand and pull opponent into...
> 3. right knee strike
> 4. Inward elbow (possible upward) as you step through, and cover.
> 
> Sean


1. Break w/ L. Inward Block to opponents hyperextended elbow (accomplished by pinning hand to chest w/ L., then stepping back).
2. L. hand slides up the length of the hyperextended - and still pinned - opponents R. arm, to the throat or face;
3. From point of contact, L. Ot Handsword drops firmly back down the length of the arm, chopping inferiorly (towards the floor) to the crook of the elbow, as the R. Hand = palm heel w/ pivot to forward bow.
4.  Reach behind head with Right palm heel (some schools even teach it as a palm-heel slide, with the impact being incidental to the placement of the hand in reaching around)
5.  Pull head into R. Knee "sandwich".

The salute _is_ the chop, and the _glancing_ part is the hyperextension with the inward block _on the way to_ the outward handsword.

D.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Shodan said:
			
		

> I learned Glancing Salute with the left outward handsword to the neck- simultaneous with the right knee.  After the right palm-heel to face, you crane around the right side of the opponent's neck with your right hand and frictional pull them forward into your left handsword and right knee.  It does make the last move hard to get cuz it sends them backwards.
> 
> :asian:  :karate:


That is an insert that is giving you trouble. Lose it.
Sean


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## KenpoTess

Glancing Salute teaches How to Ride the force....

We teach Glancing Salute using a right thrusting heel palm strike to the jaw.

We also pin the opponent's right arm to their body with our left hand prior to shooting the right heel palm to the chin, careful not to circle the right hand around their right arm to strike- as this violates Point of origin and economy of motion.

Use your right anchored elbow to assist in bringing the opponent down to your knee-make sure you don't over reach with your knee kick. 


~Tess


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*Personal* Modification (bold to indicate that I know this is not the way it's taught in AK): Liked the Thai knees off a neck wrestle, and the similar approach used in modified JKD kickboxing after a crash. Used to teach it (Glancing Salute) remaining compact, and not overextending.  Now teach it as an intro to the the Thai knee from distant rear leg...i.e., as right hand reaches behind the head with the shape of the crane: Halt. Switch to latching on with both hands, as weight transfers to lead leg, and right leg slides back a bit more, still.  Then, with full trunk and hgip flexion contraction, as well as "cable row" type strength move of returning the arms to the body via latissimus dorsi (largest and strongest of the upper & middle back muscles), pull opponents head into the knee as hard as you can, while thrusting the knee upward and forward...as hard as you can. Not as pretty as standard AK, but I know that the students can at least power off a hard core front knee thrust by the end of the lesson.  In teaching it, will even have them repeat the knee as a triplet ("bang the guy three times, each time returning the right foot to the ground behind you").

I lose the refinements of kenpo, but personally believe I make up for it by providing a grosser movement, more likely to remain in muscle memory, and easier to recall and use in the chaos of assault.

D.


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## KenpoTess

Sounds good Dave  Though to a beginner as Mr. Ellerton, I don't think that is what he needs at this time.
  In our Penjak classes we utilize  similar moves to what you are illustrating and indeed.. Devastating.
Maybe a new thread in the General Kenpo area


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Sounds good Dave  Though to a beginner as Mr. Ellerton, I don't think that is what he needs at this time.
> In our Penjak classes we utilize similar moves to what you are illustrating and indeed.. Devastating.
> Maybe a new thread in the General Kenpo area


Thanks.  Point taken.  I guess this IS the EPAK section. *chagrined*.

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Back to the thread point...I've had trouble training in just about any of the bearhug techs.  With a bouncer and wrassler history, none of them seem practical to me.  Nobody just walks up and hugs you, or picks you up to just stand there. They are usually trying to restrain you for a buddy to take a shot, picking you up to slam you on the ground, or latcing on to you to drag you down with them.  Same with Charging Ram. Against a practiced shooter doing even a drunken bull-rush, twisting out of the path with a hiayaah won't get you clear from the gathering of legs and the picking of ankles.

D.


----------



## TwistofFat

I have learned to work through almost all of the techs but still do not like Repeated Devastation - one side seems to work just fine!


----------



## pete

the rear bearhug techs work well if you can drop your weight before the attacker can pick you up or toss you around.  low horse!  if not, and you are bumped forward, i always liked the old Driving Elbows technique simple and effective (whoops, i forgot this is EPAK, sorry)


----------



## Doc

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> being a beginner one of the hardest techniques for me to learn was glancing salute. Reason being after delivering the handsword i would have troublewith my oponant getting away from me and not being able to finish the technique but thats pretty much it from me for now its great being a beginner, so much to learn
> 
> take care guys


"Otisdburg?" (Handsword?)


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## Touch Of Death

Doc said:
			
		

> "Otisdburg?" (Handsword?)


Thats what I say, what handsword??
Sean


----------



## Doc

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Glancing Salute teaches How to Ride the force....
> ~Tess



I may be wrong as to how this technique is taught in the commercial arena, however I was taught that the technique teaches how to "absorb" the force, not "ride" it. Although it may be a small symantical difference, it would appear to be on its face, fairly significant to me.

The attack as I understand it is a "push." To "ride" the push requires a certain anticipation prior to contact. There is a tendancy to in commercial AK to philosohically approach "pushes," "bear-hugs," and other contact assaults the same as "punches." Realistically they are two distinctly different kinds of assaults. Punch defenses are taught as "atempts." We see the action and react to it. "Contact" type assaults by their very nature requires them to actually occur first, before they can be reacted to.

Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone who sees a push coming should "wait" for the push so they may execute a technique. That would be ludicrous in the real world. What I am saying is if you practice to move in anticipation of the contact, then you will not learn how to deal with it (absorb it) when you don't see it coming. How you react to the contact after it is initiated is the key. This is particularly important in bear-hugs, or what we call "Mugger Hugger" assaults. Rarely are they "practiced" by most the way they actually occur. These attacks are usually a precursor to additional actions, and usually bring a certain amount of body momentum that will force a platform adjustment (foot movement), that must be "absorbed" before the defense may even begin.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> I may be wrong as to how this technique is taught in the commercial arena, however I was taught that the technique teaches how to "absorb" the force, not "ride" it. Although it may be a small symantical difference, it would appear to be on its face, fairly significant to me.
> 
> The attack as I understand it is a "push." To "ride" the push requires a certain anticipation prior to contact. There is a tendancy to in commercial AK to philosohically approach "pushes," "bear-hugs," and other contact assaults the same as "punches." Realistically they are two distinctly different kinds of assaults. Punch defenses are taught as "atempts." We see the action and react to it. "Contact" type assaults by their very nature requires them to actually occur first, before they can be reacted to.
> 
> Now to be clear, I'm not suggesting anyone who sees a push coming should "wait" for the push so they may execute a technique. That would be ludicrous in the real world. What I am saying is if you practice to move in anticipation of the contact, then you will not learn how to deal with it (absorb it) when you don't see it coming. How you react to the contact after it is initiated is the key. This is particularly important in bear-hugs, or what we call "Mugger Hugger" assaults. Rarely are they "practiced" by most the way they actually occur. These attacks are usually a precursor to additional actions, and usually bring a certain amount of body momentum that will force a platform adjustment (foot movement), that must be "absorbed" before the defense may even begin.


Thanks for the clarification, Doc. Good to get some insight on the Contact vs. Attempt thing. I am lost in a hair-split, though. Absorbing the force of the push, and riding it out, seem much the same to me. Strategically, one of the advantages of Glancing Salute was, I thought, turning apparent disadvantage into advantage. Specifically, stepping back with the pin draws the opponent off balance, making him an "easier target" for the follow-up counter-attack. If he remains on his base, then he is free to pull his hand back from the pin without much viable resistance; therefore, there is significant intent (with supportive footwork) to draw him off his center, with authority. At this point, it seems like one has gone from riding or absorbing, to somethig akin to Judo footwork to imbalance an attacker. 

The absorption is transitory, as one rides the wave of force created by the push, to draw the opponent out of his stance.

I'm interested in any clarification or feedback you may have to offer.

Dave

PS -- In terms of jujutsu being embedded in Kenpo, I was also taught that an Ossi Dori, or Zed Lock (wrist turned into dorsiflexion with stressed distraction & ulnar deviation against a fulcrum point) is presented at/during the pin, complementary to the pinning action and removal from ground zero. Thoughts?


----------



## KenpoTess

Glancing Salute teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action (the push). Aside from your  pivot getting you out of the line of attack it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.

*snip*
As the opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, you step forward and slightly to your left with your left foot into a left neutral bow. Pivot to your right into a right forward bow (to ride the force of your opponent's push).....*end snip*

Note.  Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of his push.

The way I was taught.


~Tess


----------



## Touch Of Death

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Glancing Salute teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action (the push). Aside from your  pivot getting you out of the line of attack it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.
> 
> *snip*
> As the opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, you step forward and slightly to your left with your left foot into a left neutral bow. Pivot to your right into a right forward bow (to ride the force of your opponent's push).....*end snip*
> 
> Note.  Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of his push.
> 
> The way I was taught.
> 
> 
> ~Tess


And when do you execute that left handsword?


----------



## Nick Ellerton

Well thank you very much ladies and gentleman for your regards to this problem. But addressing the whole handsword thing i th ink i may have worded it wrong. What i meant was the enitial glancing strike. How i was taught it, was it is "similar" to a handsword. i am not argueing about what is right and what is wrong because i simply do not no, plus i was always under the impression that Kenpo or Mr Parkers kenpo was taught the same way, obviously i was wrong cos reading all of your thread additions it was the wrong assumption to make, but thank you for taking the time to address this matter. Oh yeah and on the riding the push topic isnt that called purposful compliance? im not sure but im asking. thanks guys


----------



## Michael Billings

As I have it:


> *8. GLANCING SALUTE *(Front right hand cross push)
> 
> 1. Standing naturally while your opponent pushes your right shoulder with his right hand, step forward and slightly to your left (toward 11:00) with your left foot into a left neutral bow (facing 12:00). Immediately pivot to your right into a right forward bow toward 3:00 as your right arm *pins* your opponent's right wrist to the right side of your chest. Simultaneous with this action have your left inward vertical forearm strike against the joint of your opponent's right elbow to cause a break. (This action should cause your opponent to turn counterclockwise, as well as cancel his *Width Zones*).
> 
> 2. Pivot to your left (toward 12:00) into a left forward bow as your left hand *pins* your opponent's right arm to his body while simultaneously striking to your opponent's jaw with a right thrusting heel palm strike. (The action of the left *pinning* hand should bring your opponent's head down and forward into your right heel palm strike. This strike should force his head up and back).
> 
> 3. Have your right hand circle to the right of your opponent's face as it then hooks around and back of his neck. With your right hand now formed in the shape of a crane, immediately pull your opponent's head down and to the ground (while* Anchoring* your right elbow). Simultaneously have your right knee kick to your opponent's stomach. (Your opponent's strength should be waning, and his feet may move back and away from you).
> 
> 
> 
> 4. Plant your right foot forward into a right neutral bow, as your right knee *checks* the inside of your opponent's right knee in the process. Simultaneously deliver a right inward elbow strike to your opponent's face, as your left hand *pins* your opponent's right arm to his body. (This should cause your opponent's head to move up and back).
> 
> 5. Do a right front crossover, covering out toward 7:30.




 Then the Notes I have and teach on the technique follow:



> *8. GLANCING SALUTE*
> 
> 1. THE NAME: The name of the technique stems from your opponent's ricocheting push. As stated above a "*Salute*" is symbolic of a push.
> 
> 2. THE THEME: This technique teaches you how to ride the force of an aggressive action. Aside from your pivot getting you out of the *Line of Attack* it residually nullifies the effect of your opponent's push.
> 
> 3. THE ATTACK: The *Ideal Phase* of this technique commences with your opponent to the front. As he steps forward with his right foot his right push travels across to your right shoulder. Study some of these additional *What If* factors:
> 
> a. Your opponent's left leg is forward.
> 
> b. Your opponent attacks with full body momentum.
> 
> c. Your opponent's push is directed toward your stomach.
> 
> 4. Be sure to turn the width of your body as soon as possible on the first move so that it diminishes the force of the push.
> 
> 5. If your opponent is stronger than you, it will be difficult to break his right elbow using only the force of your arms. Therefore, you must learn to maximize your efforts by harmoniously utilizing the force of your entire body.
> 
> a. Contour your left inward block along the left side of your body.
> 
> b. Thrust your inward block from its *Point of Origin*.
> 
> c. Strike with the proper *Angle of Contact *at your opponent's elbow joint.
> 
> d. Do not inhale prior to beginning your initial move. Simply move.
> 
> 6. A common error on the second move of this technique is to neglect driving your opponent's right arm down and toward him, prior to shooting your right heel palm to his chin. You should not circle your right hand around his right arm to strike his face. This violates the principles of *Point of Origin* and *Economy of Motion*.
> 
> 
> 
> 7. When delivering your right knee kick to your opponent's stomach, be sure that your right *anchored* elbow assists you in bringing him down into your knee. Compatibly work both forces to counter balance your action. Do not overreach with your knee kick.


 Not sure if any of you are interested in these notes or technique explanation, but it gives a little more insight on what Mr. Parker was doing with the unpublished manuals in '89 and '90.  What is important to me is the way in which he and his "think tank" group, broke down the techniques, analyzed and labeled the 'Motion" component with specific principles supporting the concepts or theories he postulated and formalized.

 It ain't what you do ... it's how you do it. (-Me 1995)

 -Michael


----------



## Touch Of Death

Nick Ellerton said:
			
		

> Well thank you very much ladies and gentleman for your regards to this problem. But addressing the whole handsword thing i th ink i may have worded it wrong. What i meant was the enitial glancing strike. How i was taught it, was it is "similar" to a handsword. i am not argueing about what is right and what is wrong because i simply do not no, plus i was always under the impression that Kenpo or Mr Parkers kenpo was taught the same way, obviously i was wrong cos reading all of your thread additions it was the wrong assumption to make, but thank you for taking the time to address this matter. Oh yeah and on the riding the push topic isnt that called purposful compliance? im not sure but im asking. thanks guys


In that case the answer is in the name of the tech, Glancing. Provided you are cancelling his H,W, and D zones with your left hand (and left leg) and your purpose is to hook the head, then you know not to send this guy flying with a solid heel palm strike. That is, the heel palm is an insert on the way to the hook.
Sean


----------



## Doc

> Thanks for the clarification, Doc. Good to get some insight on the Contact vs. Attempt thing. I am lost in a hair-split, though.  Absorbing the force of the push, and riding it out, seem much the same to me.



Well yes it can be a bit disconcerting, but as I feel you know how little it takes to disrupt, or breakdown the human body, the little things can become huge in interaction. I remember having a contentious discussion with a well-known and vocal Kenpo professor regarding the subject of bending over versus bent over when struck in the lower portion of the body. 

I attempted to explain that, although upon completion the postures may appear the same, how you arrived at any posture would be a serious factor in what is available and to the vulnerability of the body. This is another one of those type issues that on surface appear rather minor, but actually has huge implications.



> Strategically, one of the advantages of Glancing Salute was, I thought, turning apparent disadvantage into advantage.



Here you are definitely on point in my opinion. Its the incremental how thats important.



> Specifically, stepping back with the pin draws the opponent off balance,



As Ed Parker would say to me, Aha! Lets talk about stepping back. The phrase would indicate a voluntary initiated action of the defender. But if you are pushed firmly you may be forced to step as a reaction, therefore you have no control over the situation until you Survive The Initial Assault and absorb the action.



> At this point, it seems like one has gone from riding or absorbing, to something akin to tai sabaaki...footwork to imbalance an attacker.



I feel youre on target, but I go back to absorbing over riding. In Ed Parkers published definition Riding infers that its execution is requiring (you) go with an attack while standing in place or while stepping.

What is not addressed is the actual severity of the attack will dictate your ability to ride, and also will determine what is possible to absorb. A cross push, as this technique defense suggests, can be so severe that you may be dislodged from your platform and actually spun around, or it may be so mild that you could ride the push with no footwork. The size, and gender of the attacker and victim as well play a part. Women because of a slightly different pelvic bone, (as well as other factors) have more problems in riding,  or absorbing.

Riding is something you must do after you absorb the attack. So it is a later stage of the action. In this type of assault, in practice it must be allowed to take place, then absorbed and then finally you may ride it. You may not ride an attack until you reacquire some measure of control over your own body, which I presume you lost momentarily when you were attacked un-expectantly. In the commercial arts, there is a tendency to begin to ride or move before any of the attacks have occurred therefore turning all of the attacks into attempts. Obviously this is a huge disadvantage in training having never addressed the completed assault in practice.

So my position is simply, Before you may ride any attack, you must regain control by absorbing it first. How you absorb requires specific body mechanics that also are not addressed in the commercial art. 

Bear hugs, as another example, bring body momentum that must be absorbed first, before any counter may occur to prevent further action on the attackers part.

Thanks Dr. D.

(more)


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## Doc

> PS -- In terms of jujutsu being embedded in Kenpo, I was also taught that an Ossi Dori, or Zed Lock (wrist turned into dorsiflexion with stressed distraction & ulnar deviation against a fulcrum point) is presented at/during the pin, complementary to the pinning action and removal from ground zero. Thoughts?



The methodology I was taught would preclude that type of action. Mr. Parker taught me to utilize a Slap-check action with my right hand against my left shoulder to Pin and hyper-extend the arm forcing loss of structural integrity by bending the Radial Line reference points of the shoulders, and misaligning the hips.

Ed Parker said "jiujitsu" is not embedded in Kenpo, but jiu-jitsu comes from Kenpo, therefore it is simply where its supposed to be to the knowledgeable. Jiujitsu comes from Chin-na, and Chin-Na is a componant of all Chinese Arts. After coming to the mainland, Parker abandoned virtually all of the Japanese influence on his art in favor of the Chinese Lessons he was learning. That is when the name changed to "Chinese Kenpo" and he wrote "Secrets." When circumstances changed and dictated he needed to spread a commercial product, he changed the name to "Kenpo Karate," adding the word "karate" for its public familiarity. He often said the term "Kenpo Karate" is about as close as you can get to an oxymoron.


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## Doc

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> Glancing Salute teaches How to Ride the force....
> 
> ~Tess


Well let me put it another way. Can you execute the technique the way it is written and "ride" the initial assault, if you begin with your eyes closed? If not than you are "anticipating" the action and are moving before the push is completed and therefore you are turning it into an "attempted push" and not defending an actual push at all.

With my students I present "Triggered Salute" and "Glancing Salute." They must begin with their eyes closed and the attacker has their choice. Right shoulder or left shoulder. You won't know until you are firmly pushed. I guarantee you won't be able to do the technique as written stepping forward etc. Parker forced me to do the same thing over thirty years ago. I failed miserably, until the mechanisms were changed.


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## KenpoTess

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> And when do you execute that left handsword?




There is NO handsword in Glancing Salute...


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## Shodan

Yes- you are right.  You guys got me thinking on this.......I am in the process of re-learning a lot of my stuff again and taking off the rust that has accumulated in my downtime since pregnancy, etc.  In looking back at my notes, I see that I did NOT learn the handsword in the original technique- it was an insert we worked with at a seminar and then again in class.  Sheesh!!  My mind is just not what it used to be.........if I could only just remember everything as taught.  Also saw another insert........anyone practice the right nerve strike to attacker's right arm just before the break?

  Sorry for the confusion.........off to etch off more rust!!

   :idunno:


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## Shodan

PS........we were practicing flowing Glancing Salute into the tail end of Snapping Twig with that handsword insert and there was no knee done.

  :asian:  :karate:


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## Touch Of Death

Shodan said:
			
		

> Yes- you are right.  You guys got me thinking on this.......I am in the process of re-learning a lot of my stuff again and taking off the rust that has accumulated in my downtime since pregnancy, etc.  In looking back at my notes, I see that I did NOT learn the handsword in the original technique- it was an insert we worked with at a seminar and then again in class.  Sheesh!!  My mind is just not what it used to be.........if I could only just remember everything as taught.  Also saw another insert........anyone practice the right nerve strike to attacker's right arm just before the break?
> 
> Sorry for the confusion.........off to etch off more rust!!
> 
> :idunno:


Another neat insert is to drive your knee down through the pubic bone after the intial knee strike. :uhyeah: 
Sean (www.iemat.com)


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## pete

very interesting to see the various interpretations, training practices and detailed notes on these techniques.  a true value of this medium is the ability for those of us who may never meet, to share. 

in my interpretation of glancing salute, the _glancing_ refers to the right arm glancing over the left during the trap/break/clear counterclockwise rotation of the left arm to deliver a linear palm heel to the attackers jaw.  this would be consistent with the glancing eye-spear in, well, glancing spear.
_salute_ seemed always to refer to heel palms, not nessecarily symbolic of a push, since thrusting salute is in response to a kick.

in reading the absorbing/riding discussion, i can't help myself but to draw upon tai chi principles of yielding and adhering. in _yielding _ we allow the attacker to exhaust the energy of the push (or punch for that matter), by removing the resistance of the target... whether we step forward, or back, we are not really advancing nor retreating, but repositioning ourselves to absorb the attacking force.  _adhering_ comes when the attackers force is no longer a threat and we stick with it (ride it?) to ultimately redirect it back to the attacker.  I believe Ed Parker said "freeing yourself from your opponent gives him the freedom to hit you"... this is where doc says: _kenpo is tai chi!_ and the games begin... sorry?



> Riding is something you must do after you absorb the attack


Doc, I would have thought, given my interpretation, that riding is something you do "while" absorbing, to prevent "retreating", the antithesis to yielding... in other words, wouldn't you begin absorbing first, but also begin to ride as you continue to absorb and continue to ride through your counter?


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## rmcrobertson

While it doesn't really affect your point, Pete, the "glancing," refers to the way that the right heel palm strikes the opponent's jaw and, "glances," around to the back of the head.


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## Bill Lear

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> While it doesn't really affect your point, Pete, the "glancing," refers to the way that the right heel palm strikes the opponent's jaw and, "glances," around to the back of the head.



That's what I've always understood.

 :asian:


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## Doc

> Very interesting to see the various interpretations, training practices and detailed notes on these techniques. a true value of this medium is the ability for those of us who may never meet, to share.



Yes the dissemination of knowledge and ideas between participants is fascinating. It allows all of us to see what others are doing and what they were taught, enabling comparisons of interpretations.



> in my interpretation of glancing salute, the glancing refers to the right arm glancing over the left during the trap/break/clear counterclockwise rotation of the left arm to deliver a linear palm heel to the attackers jaw. this would be consistent with the glancing eye-spear in, well, glancing spear. salute seemed always to refer to heel palms, not nessecarily symbolic of a push, since thrusting salute is in response to a kick.



Youre correct about the synonym salute referring to the openhanded heel palm movement. However in the Ed Parker Technique as I understand it, Glancing Salute refers to the heel palm strike that strikes the right cheek at the stomach point and then glances and rubs the point with the forearm as the hand passes the head.



> in reading the absorbing/riding discussion, i can't help myself but to draw upon tai chi principles of yielding and adhering. in yielding we allow the attacker to exhaust the energy of the push (or punch for that matter), by removing the resistance of the target... whether we step forward, or back, we are not really advancing nor retreating, but repositioning ourselves to absorb the attacking force. adhering comes when the attackers force is no longer a threat and we stick with it (ride it?) to ultimately redirect it back to the attacker. I believe Ed Parker said "freeing yourself from your opponent gives him the freedom to hit you"... this is where doc says: kenpo is tai chi! and the games begin... sorry?



No, you are correct about yielding in Tai Chi Chaun. But the application is different. Yielding is a sensitivity exercise designed to teach you to absorb much like chi sao teaches sensitivity as well. 



> Quote:
> Riding is something you must do after you absorb the attack
> 
> Doc, I would have thought, given my interpretation, that riding is something you do "while" absorbing, to prevent "retreating", the antithesis to yielding... in other words, wouldn't you begin absorbing first, but also begin to ride as you continue to absorb and continue to ride through your counter?



The exercises and applications are always separate. It may be a small semantics disagreement, but I go back to my blind analogy.  In training, you must accept the push. The very nature of being pushed means momentarily you have no control of the circumstances so you absorb the action, regain control of your body, then ride the action. So they are just different stages of the response as I was taught, but an important distinction is made because it prevents premature reaction to external stimuli so the actual application will be functional.

From the Tai Chi perspective you would be correct in the exercise, however the application of the Chaun is different. You might say Parker distilled the Chinese arts and meticulous defined actions with the critical eye on self-defense function first, sans secretive cultural and excess tradition laden rituals. The Chinese are famous for concealing information in plain sight, giving multiple flowery verb age explanations for a single activity depending on who you are, where you are, and how much they want you to know. The transition between the Tai Chi and the Chaun yields significantly different perspectives on the same information. Jimmy Woo used to say that Tai Chi trains the mind, body, and spirit, but the Chaun teaches you how to use it. Ill go with that. Ed Parkers Kenpo as he taught me is the Chaun of Tai Chi.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc:

Thanks for the input.  Yet another question for you.  In some of the splinter factions of kenpo, I've seen frequent use of the "side palm heel" in lieu of an outward handsword...basically, a strike with the knife edge of the hand, shooting straight out from midline position (or flipping from palm down, to palm up), rather then "cocking" at the opposite ear prior to execution.

I've seen this, in particular, with techs such as glancing salute, particularly when taught as a defense against a contralateral or "Right to Right" push.  Was told by one gentlemen that this side-chop was, in fact, the "salute", since it loosely resembled the basic salute of the US military, just delivered from lower down (the posterior aspect of the pinned elbow) then a standard salute (brow).

1.  Are you familiar with the side-palm? Particularly, is that something from the days of yore in Kenpo, or the manufacture of defectors from the days of yore?

2.  In several schools, some defector-based, some IKKA, I've always seen this tech as R to R push, and the absorption taking place around a vertical axis created by the opposing midlines of both players. Do you recall if this has undergone revisions by Mr. Parker over time?

In some of the posted notes, it's mentioned as stepping forward vs. stepping back. Thoughts?  Specifically, as a sensitivity/reaction drill, we used to practice with eyes closed, so as not to initiate the tech in anticipation to the attack, but in response to it.  How might one step forward into a repelling force in response, vs. anticipation? (seems like it would be harder to do with the eyes closed, particularly if the shove is hard enough to alter your original base/position).

Finally (for all, please), I've never seen it NOT done without a chop or outward handsword, including in tech and forms divisions at the LB Internationals, as well as smaller local tournaments, yet so many posters here have. Did I project a hallucination? Is there footage of Mr. P. doing the SD tech? Is there a chop/sword?

Thanks in advance,

Dr. Dave.


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## Doc

> In some of the splinter factions of kenpo, I've seen frequent use of the "side palm heel" in lieu of an outward Handsword ... basically, a strike with the knife edge of the hand, shooting straight out from midline position (or flipping from palm down, to palm up), rather then "cocking" at the opposite ear prior to execution.
> 
> I've seen this, in particular, with techs such as glancing salute, particularly when taught as a defense against a contralateral or "Right to Right" push. Was told by one gentlemen that this side-chop was, in fact, the "salute", since it loosely resembled the basic salute of the US military, just delivered from lower down (the posterior aspect of the pinned elbow) then a standard salute (brow).
> 
> 1. Are you familiar with the side-palm? Particularly, is that something from the days of yore in Kenpo, or the manufacture of defectors from the days of yore?



Yes Im familiar with it, but you described two methods above. First the palm up is absolutely wrong. A phrase I rarely use but this movement is so anatomically incorrect that repeated use will cause significant destruction, and lead to surgical procedure(s) to repair the damage in the shoulder. Ive most often seen this used in techniques like Sword & Hammer, (flank shoulder grab) to strike up and outward to portions of the neck region. This is a really bad, bad, idea and is a classic example of unknowledgeable people improving Ed Parker material without the foundation necessary to make reasonable decisions of rearrangement or adjustments. The rationale is supposed to be, Its faster. But it is what I like to call a kamikaze move that ultimate will lead to your own destruction.

Second, the outward thrusting heel palm strike enjoys a similar popularity because it appears to compensate for poor body mechanics when it is executed as you describe from the centerline, but ultimately is not as effective as the properly executed anatomically correct hand sword.

It is not so much a manufactured use of a strike, but more a misinterpretation as most of the Ed Parker material is. In all fairness, the conceptual motion based structure created by Parker promotes and encourages, and is in fact built on personal interpretations, so it should come as no surprise that most get it (anatomically) wrong with no understanding of the dynamics of human body mechanics.

Used anatomically correct it must be utilized, (with other mechanisms) moving away from the centerline, or if executed forward, the hand position should be the opposite of the popular use (fingers outward) wherein it becomes not only a strike but represents an Extended Index position and Brace.

In the technique discussed when presented with the proper mechanisms, the heel palm should strike the side of the face at S-4 to produce PMD (Physical/Mental Disassociation) to insure the remainder of the technique, if utilized, will be functional and devastating if desired.

Historically, Ed Parker described the thrusting heel palm synonym as a salute because it actually resembled the Fascist Nazi Salute of world War Two Germany. In fact when he demonstrated it to me he actually did one of his 3 Stooges bit, placing two fingers over his top lip to simulate Hitlers mustache, while looking cockeyed from an attention stance and throwing a high heel palm in the air. That was funny as hell. Later he dropped the Nazi reference as simply referred to throwing your hand up to say hi to someone at a distance, which he described as a hello greeting or salute.





> 2. In several schools, some defector-based, some IKKA, I've always seen this tech as R to R push, and the absorption taking place around a vertical axis created by the opposing midlines of both players. Do you recall if this has undergone revisions by Mr. Parker over time?



This is a difficult question for me for several reasons. First although I was there and have the so-called last manuals he was working on, there was never a definitive written methodology of any technique that was produced for commercial dissemination. I received the manuals on computer disc as historic reference like most of the material he worked on, but they were never intended for me to use as a teaching aide. Because of the nature of my own lessons, I literally had to write my own lessons.

Secondly, it would be inappropriate for me to comment on Parker interpretations of the particulars of this technique as he presented it to other people. Ive seen him do a seminar in the morning and show a technique and then show the same technique different in the afternoon. He often modified or changed his presentation to the level of the person(s) he was talking to, and only presented them as ideas not gospel. 

This is why he never produced the techniques on video for the studio business. Although many wanted him to demo each technique (and others ultimately attempted to on video), this would contradict the conceptual interpretation philosophy of the business. He felt once he did a technique on video, everyone would only try to mimic him.

He always imparted the caveat that YOU had to make it work for YOU because of the conceptual nature of most of his teaching. In commercial self-defense studios, that is all that mattered.


Late in the sixties, he did perform and film the commercial versions of all of the techniques that existed at the time, for a couple of instructors who lived on the east coast as a loose reference. Previous to that he began a project to film techniques in the early sixties, but soon abandoned the idea for a variety of reasons. A series of those original techniques exist on 16 mm film that I have, as well as on a historical video produced by Ed Parker Jr. and Chuck Sullivan. Additionally, as an experiment, Ed Parker Sr. had Jim Mitchell perform a version of the entire commercial system all of the way through the purple extensions on VHS video. It included every form, set, and all of the techniques that existed at the time. I, and a few others have copies. After all being said, Parker himself used the Handsword. 



> In some of the posted notes, it's mentioned as stepping forward vs. stepping back. Thoughts?


In my opinion, the stepping forward interpretation requires reducing the technique (as most do) to an attempted push over a proper completed push.



> Specifically, as a sensitivity/reaction drill, we used to practice with eyes closed, so as not to initiate the tech in anticipation to the attack, but in response to it.



This is the method I use also to acclimate students to the realities of getting pushed. I do not discount the importance of having the ability to ride an aggressive action when the opportunity presents itself, however I must stress the importance of learning to absorb the attack when it occurs unexpectedly and unanticipated first.



> How might one step forward into a repelling force in response, vs. anticipation? (seems like it would be harder to do with the eyes closed, particularly if the shove is hard enough to alter your original base/position).



You sir, are quite correct. Predicated on the severity of the push, it would be virtually impossible to step forward except for the mildest of touch pushes. And of course a person being aggressive will push much harder. Therefore any written version of that technique that suggests a step forward reduces the assault by design to an attempted push.

Once again, in fairness, Parker often did this because of mechanisms that are not included in his conceptual product. Although the technique is quite functional on one level (anticipating the attack), and serves its purpose, it is only an elementary quick fix lesson that becomes exposed, as you observed, when the eyes are closed pre-assault.



> Finally (for all, please), I've never seen it NOT done without a chop or outward handsword, including in tech and forms divisions at the LB Internationals, as well as smaller local tournaments, yet so many posters here have. Did I project a hallucination? Is there footage of Mr. P. doing the SD tech? Is there a chop/sword?



To my knowledge Mr. Parker never put this technique on video for presentation, other than what I stated above. Ive seen people use Parker technique names for techniques I didnt recognize for forty years. Despite thoughts to the contrary, there are no definitive base or ideal versions of any techniques in the conceptual motion based system, only very loose ideas of attack and defense to be interpreted for your own personal function. The manuals have always said generally "what," but have never addressed definitively 'how.'

You sir, of all people are definitely NOT hallucinating. 


Thanks, Dr. Dave.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Thank you for your feedback and information. Have many more questions to come.

Dave


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

O.K.  Here's one for all y'all.  A tech that I have absolutely no faith in...even after seeing multiple variations of it...is *Twirling Hammer(s).*  I first lost faith when a guy got me in a  side headlock in grade school, under his right armpit.  The R. hammerfist to the groin hit the pubic bone/bladder (being slung around while in the lock), and the hammer to the kidney hit non-descript (and apparently non-painful) area of the back. The guy drops to his knees when I go to check-buckle the knees, and proceeds to punch me in the face at will. I'm now laying on my right, and my left is trying in vane to reach over his shoulder for a face hook.  Didn't happen.

Next try, fighting a wrestler in high school.  Tried a variation that has a short hook to the kidney, with a rigid hand to the groin.  Got the nuts; missed the kidney.  Finally said, "screw kenpo from this position", and side-picked the closest leg, bicycled out towards my rear, and got the punk in the scarfhold from judo, pinned the arm under a thigh, and popped him repeatedly with hooks with the free left hand (my first MMA match?).

Has this tech _ever_ been used successfully by _anybody_? Ever?

I've trained the snot out of about 6-7 variations on this tech, and don't particularly like any of them. Almost as bad as squeezing the peach, or scraping hoof. I've become personally convinced that the best defense to these positions is not to get in them.


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## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> O.K.  Here's one for all y'all.  A tech that I have absolutely no faith in...even after seeing multiple variations of it...is *Twirling Hammer(s).*


That sounds more like "Grip Of Death?"


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> 1.  ...it is what I like to call a kamikaze move that ultimate will lead to your own destruction.
> 
> 2.  Ive seen him do a seminar in the morning and show a technique and then show the same technique different in the afternoon. He often modified or changed his presentation to the level of the person(s) he was talking to, and only presented them as ideas not gospel.
> 
> 3.  A series of those original techniques exist on 16 mm film that I have, as well as on a historical video produced by Ed Parker Jr. and Chuck Sullivan.
> 
> 
> 4.  ...Ed Parker Sr. had Jim Mitchell perform a version of the entire commercial system all of the way through the purple extensions on VHS video. It included every form, set, and all of the techniques that existed at the time. I, and a few others have copies.
> 
> 
> 
> I haven't figured out how to do that cool multiple quote fields thing, so bear with me.
> 
> 1.  I see a lot of that in poor biomechanics in kenpo, as well as other arts.  I see guys doing pull-drags, kicks, etc., such that they're stressing their MCL's while compressing lateral components of menisci, etc. Took Functional Anatomy & Biomechanics with 2 other kenpo BB's, one from Dimmicks (sp?) crew, and one from Al Reyes Jr., down from the Bishop area.  We used to shake our heads at the damage we've caused our bodies by just not knowing any better about how to tolerate anatomical micro-stresses.  Often thought it would be interesting to get one of these PhD's in biomech's to go through the basics with an eye towards re-writing them for maximum power/minimum cumulative traumatic strain.
> 
> 2.  The source of the "how many kenpo BB's to change a light bulb?" joke?
> 
> 3.  Finally saw that recently.  Excellent footage from a different era.
> 
> 4.  That would make a helluva watch.
> 
> Finally, I'm not sure Mr. Parker would have had to worry much about people trying to move like him.  I participated in many a seminar wherein a room full of black belts are demo'd a move, and not one of them moved even remotely like Mr. P...even when the "style" of motion was the lesson/point.
> 
> Specifically...and I had several "conversations" about this with him...Mr. Parkers movements consistently looked like he could have been whipping frisbees, or throwing stones as if to skip them over water for some long distance, with much of his upper body work (total body work? skipping stones ripples from the bottom, up). The targeting for his blows seemed never to be the surface he was hitting; rather, he seemed to always be "on the way" to another place, and the target got in the way of his movement (i.e., he was trying to skip a stone, and someone put their face in the way).  Room would be full of folks from various kenpo backgrounds, and they would just keep short-popping their shots.  But that's another thread (power vs. momentum?).
> 
> Thank you for your insights,
> 
> Dr. Dave.
Click to expand...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Doc said:
			
		

> That sounds more like "Grip Of Death?"


Yep.  Damn dailysex.  I mean, dyslexia.

My bad.  I seem to do that a lot.


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## Touch Of Death

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> O.K.  Here's one for all y'all.  A tech that I have absolutely no faith in...even after seeing multiple variations of it...is *Twirling Hammer(s).*  I first lost faith when a guy got me in a  side headlock in grade school, under his right armpit.  The R. hammerfist to the groin hit the pubic bone/bladder (being slung around while in the lock), and the hammer to the kidney hit non-descript (and apparently non-painful) area of the back. The guy drops to his knees when I go to check-buckle the knees, and proceeds to punch me in the face at will. I'm now laying on my right, and my left is trying in vane to reach over his shoulder for a face hook.  Didn't happen.
> 
> Next try, fighting a wrestler in high school.  Tried a variation that has a short hook to the kidney, with a rigid hand to the groin.  Got the nuts; missed the kidney.  Finally said, "screw kenpo from this position", and side-picked the closest leg, bicycled out towards my rear, and got the punk in the scarfhold from judo, pinned the arm under a thigh, and popped him repeatedly with hooks with the free left hand (my first MMA match?).
> 
> Has this tech _ever_ been used successfully by _anybody_? Ever?
> 
> I've trained the snot out of about 6-7 variations on this tech, and don't particularly like any of them. Almost as bad as squeezing the peach, or scraping hoof. I've become personally convinced that the best defense to these positions is not to get in them.


There isn't any thing wrong with the tech persay, its just that you tried to move on without accomplishing submission. A good insert before reaching over his head is to trap that arm and knee the guy in the face a couple of times. Or you can slip your head under his arm force your self backward and drive his head into the floor or pavement. The tech is a skeleton, you fill in the blanks.
Sean


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