# Are Kenpo (any kind) and Taijiquan the Same?



## Matt Stone (Mar 12, 2003)

It has been said in another thread by someone claiming a great degree of EPAK knowledge as well as a personal relationship with Mr. Parker that kenpo (in general, though I suspect it may have been implied that AK in specific) is essentially the same as Taijiquan (a.k.a. Tai Chi).

Does anyone else hold such a theory, and if so can you support that theory with some form of explanation?

Some folks chimed in on another thread I started on this topic, but I thought perhaps a poll would be a better method of determining support for this theory...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (Mar 12, 2003)

I don't know enough to say.  But I do know that at the last Huk
seminar I was at, Huk said Taiji had it "right" by doing their forms 
and techniques so slow.  He said that's the best way to improve
our kenpo, to do it slow, and make sure each and every bit of 
your technique/form/set is 100% accurate ... the weight 
distribution, the positioning, the strike, the block, etc.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 12, 2003)

Well, if that makes Kenpo and Taiji the same (i.e. moving slowly during practice), then there are a lot of things that are the same as Taiji...  Putting, practicing baseball swings, trimming hedges...

My point is, Taiji and Kenpo are apples and oranges.  Both are fruit, but the commonality ends there.

There is a lot more to Taiji than moving in slow motion.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## jeffkyle (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I don't know enough to say.  But I do know that at the last Huk
> seminar I was at, Huk said Taiji had it "right" by doing their forms
> and techniques so slow.  He said that's the best way to improve
> ...



Very good idea!


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## Kirk (Mar 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *There is a lot more to Taiji than moving in slow motion.*



I didn't mean to insinuate otherwise.  As little as I know about
kenpo, I know less about all other arts.


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## yilisifu (Mar 13, 2003)

I can see where they both use a handful of similar techniques (VERY few) - but then, although a couple of their stances may appear similar, they aren't at all.....and the combative goal is the same    BUT that's about it as far as similarities go...


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 13, 2003)

I've heard Huk Planas say that Tai chi is just Kung Fu in slow motion.  To the extent that Mr. Parker incorporated Kung Fu into the system they will be similar.


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## Matt Stone (Mar 13, 2003)

Seeing as how _kung fu_ is neither the actual Chinese term for martial arts, nor a specific method of Chinese martial arts, but simply means a skill developed over time with much effort, I should certainly hope that anyone who develops their own art incorporates a little _kung fu_ into it...  

Likewise, while it may come as a huge surprise to some folks out there whose linguistic skills are less than well rounded, it is no great revelation that _kung fu_ and "Tai Chi" are the same...

Taijiquan is practiced in slow motion to develop certain body coordinations.  Taiji techniques are not applied in fighting in slow motion - that idea is just plain silly.

It is this kind of misunderstanding of peoples' own martial arts, other martial arts, and the languages used to describe any martial arts, that leads to ongoing and deeply ingrained false information.


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## yilisifu (Mar 13, 2003)

Many of the body actions found in Taijichuan are somewhat different from what is found in kenpo or karate, or even many other styles of kung-fu.  They learn to emit different types of force (jing) through special exercises, and some of these are not at all what one would find in kenpo or karate.

There are many, many mechanical (and other) differences between Taijichuan and karate/kenpo.


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 1. *Seeing as how kung fu is neither the actual Chinese term for martial arts, nor a specific method of Chinese martial arts, but simply means a skill developed over time with much effort, I should certainly hope that anyone who develops their own art incorporates a little kung fu into it...
> 
> 2. Likewise, while it may come as a huge surprise to some folks out there whose linguistic skills are less than well rounded, it is no great revelation that kung fu and "Tai Chi" are the same...
> ...




1. A remarkable amount of hostility.  Since I was speaking in English, I used  Kung Fu  in the American sense. (Ie. refering to a large number of different chinese arts.)

2. I'm no linguist, but my quote mere stated this with less condescension and no arrogant posturing.

3. Exactly!  Of course neither Mr Planas or I believe that it is applied to fighting in slow motion, just the practice.

4. Your misunderstanding.  I'm no expert at chinese martial arts or the the chinese group of languages, but I don't pretend to be.  My statement was made in the most general sense.  

I chose to use the anglicized Tai chi purposefully.  Taiji is the new "politically correct" academically arrogant spelling for a group of arts for which neither spelling is "correct."

One of Mr. Parkers great contibutions was to change the Language of EPAK to American English and decrease the number of these silly linguistic arguments.  

Jeff


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 13, 2003)

We can call it 'plays guitar' or 'strums lute' or 'wild stallions'..its still the same general motion.  If we are talkin in generalities, then lets be 'general'.  The 'common' term for all chinese based arts is 'kung fu'.  the 'common' term for all martial arts is 'karate'.  This is why many schools have a big 'Karate' sign over the door, even though what they teach may be 'southern okinawan widgit boxing'.  You and I will 'get it'.  Joe Newbie wont.  Once you get him in the door he can be educated, but he wont even see the door if its not something he 'reconizes'.


Generally, I see alot of Chinese influence in Kenpo.  Some concepts and techniques are in fact similar to those found in Wing Chun, Taiji, and other systems.  A wrist lock is a wrist lock, regardless of its ethnic group.


If we are talking in specifics, no, they are not the same.  The forms, base techniques, mechanics, etc are not the same.  They do however, compliment each other.  Kenpo (and Arnis and JKD) were influenced by several arts, sharing some common roots.




:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *1. A remarkable amount of hostility.  Since I was speaking in English, I used  Kung Fu  in the American sense. (Ie. refering to a large number of different chinese arts.)*



You will note, I am sure, the use of the  at the end of my comment.  I was hoping you would perceive the intended joviality, but I guess I was incorrectly crediting you with grasping the intent of my reply.  Next time I will try to be less abstract in my responses...



> *2. I'm no linguist, but my quote mere stated this with less condescension and no arrogant posturing.*



Actually, no.  Your quote said nothing of the sort.  Your quote said this:



> I've heard Huk Planas say that Tai chi is just Kung Fu in slow motion. To the extent that Mr. Parker incorporated Kung Fu into the system they will be similar.



I simply corrected some of the terms you were using in your quote.



> *3. Exactly!  Of course neither Mr Planas or I believe that it is applied to fighting in slow motion, just the practice.*



Well, finally it appears we agree on something!    (That was intended to be a joke.  Hope you see that.)



> *4. Your misunderstanding.  I'm no expert at chinese martial arts or the the chinese group of languages, but I don't pretend to be.  My statement was made in the most general sense.*



*My* misunderstanding because *you* fail to use words from foreign languages properly?  Right.  If you don't speak the language, don't use the words unless you know what you are saying because people that _do_ speak the language are going to be completely confused by your error...    



> *I chose to use the anglicized Tai chi purposefully.  Taiji is the new "politically correct" academically arrogant spelling for a group of arts for which neither spelling is "correct."*



Sorry, no.  You chose to use the commonly used, though _officially_ incorrect method of romanization based on an outdated and inefficient method (i.e. Wade-Giles).  *Pinyin* is the officially recognized method of romanization for Mandarin Chinese (which language the character words represented by the phonetics _Tai_, _Ji_ and _Quan_ are from).  It is neither politically correct, nor academically arrogant.  If I were to misspell every single word in English that I wrote here, I suspect native English speakers would, in due time, tire of my misuse of the language commonly spoken here.  The only arrogance is on the part of monolinguists who fail to acknowledge the validity of other languages and use a slight bit of respect toward them by attempting to at least use them correctly when selected words are employed.



> *One of Mr. Parkers great contibutions was to change the Language of EPAK to American English and decrease the number of these silly linguistic arguments.*



The arguments are only silly when monolinguists argue against the need to utilize foreign languages properly.  I agree with Mr. Parker - if you don't speak the languages fluently, don't use the terminology, period.  But if you are going to use the words, use them correctly.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Mar 14, 2003)

Kaith, 

You crack me up ... "southern okinawan widgit boxing."  Ya gotta love it.

My opinion remains.  Having done some Tai Chi Chuan Fa, Hung Gar, Chinese Kenpo, American Kenpo, Taekwondo, blah, blah, blah - over the past 30+ years, I still find EPAK to be substantively different.  Not better, not worse, just different.  The logical analysis of movement and why it is executed, apart from the economy of motion, borrowed force, active and passive checking, etc. is found in other systems ... just not all in the same system.  

Wing Chung has economy of motion, point of origin, Tai Chi's reeling silk energy closely resembles American Kenpo's whipping, relaxed, explosive movements.  There are lots of similarities to lots of arts.  Gee, my roundhouse kick looks almost like a wheel kick (it's not!), which looks almost like my Muay Thai round kick.  Or my lead hand vertical punch looks a lot like a boxer's jab.  I wonder if Le Savate has something similar (they do.)

I don't think we need to be territorial about our Arts, some are complementary, some are not.  Some work, some.... well, they are good training.   Regardless, it is a big world and variety is what makes it interesting ... especially when we are all convinced that what we do is the best thing out there, or we would not be doing it.  (The MMA crowd excluded.)  

Just look at all the dissent in the Kenpo World, (I should name my website "KENPO PLANET", but there is just too much variety in Kenpo to do it all.  I admire Joshuas KenpoNet as it is one of the best sites to date, giving all branches of Kenpo an equal amount of credit and space, regardless of origin or where it has evolved.  We don't do bad here on MartialTalk, but his Flame section and Kenpo Family Tree, not to mention Technique comparisons and articles rock, but we also don't have all the arguing or conflict over here.  I am not critical KenpoNet's format at all.  It is just the difference between a moderated forum and an open one.  Some people thrive on the disagreement, others, like me, just dont have the time or inclination.  It is just a personality thing.  

Have fun, have an opinion, but don't knock it (out loud) until you try it, and have sufficient experience to have a frame of reference.  Train hard, learn more, come back and see me.  I am willing to learn from anyone who has something to teach that I find valuable.  

My EPAK is what I CHOOSE to stay with.  But that is after many, many years, and exposure to lots of Arts.  For me, EPAK stands head and shoulders above the crowd, both for it's completeness, but mainly for the logical construction which Mr. Parker's genius brought to bear.  He created a system that by design, is intended to evolve and grow.  He did this by giving us the vocabulary of motion, a shared frame of reference, and a set of tools whereby we can analyze and tailor MOTION to meet our needs.

I do not require validation by anyone as to my choice, and I do not stand in judgment of yours.  If you like it, if you are learning, then enjoy it to it's fullest - I do.  The grass always seems greener in the other dojo, kwoon, dojang, school, or studio, but it is all the same field.  Just differnt parts of it.  

Gee, can you tell when I am tired after an 8 hour work day and 7 hours at the School (totally a great workout and super advance class tonight?)  I sure can, boy do my thoughts wander.  But too much work for me to edit it down.  Excuse the blithering.

OSS,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Michael Billings (Mar 14, 2003)

Just read Matt's post.  I guess we do have some of the same arguements and dissent. Oh well, typically we resolve it much faster (hint, hint guys) than is done on lots of other forums.

MONOLINGUIST - Good shot man!  Right across most of our bows (as in front of a ship, not the thing that shoots an arrow, or what you doing as you go onto the mat, not what some girls put in their hair or on packages.)  

Boy am I glad Mr. Parker gave us a shared language.

DING-DING, the bell sounds ....

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Matt Stone (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *We can call it 'plays guitar' or 'strums lute' or 'wild stallions'..its still the same general motion.  If we are talkin in generalities, then lets be 'general'.  The 'common' term for all chinese based arts is 'kung fu'.  the 'common' term for all martial arts is 'karate'.  This is why many schools have a big 'Karate' sign over the door, even though what they teach may be 'southern okinawan widgit boxing'.  You and I will 'get it'.  Joe Newbie wont.  Once you get him in the door he can be educated, but he wont even see the door if its not something he 'reconizes'.*



While I agree that All are (eventually) One, and that movements will inevitably be replicated across cultures and arts, I disagree that the "common term" for CMA is "kung fu," and the "common term" for JMA is "karate."  That is an oversimplification.  I know for a fact that some FMAists get wrapped around the axle regarding the use of Arnis, Kali or Escrima in reference to their arts, and the ongoing (though very low key) debate regarding other arts and which title is correct in reference to them continues as well...  It is this laxness in regards to correct language use that spills over into other aspects of training...  I admit, I am a fanatic for this issue.  But it stems from the daily, flagrant errors in my native tongue that I hear from native speakers who think they are "talkin' good English."  Language and communication skills are things we use daily, unlike math, geography or martial arts.  If we are to make ourselves properly understood to anyone with whom we converse, it is our sacred duty to do so to the best of our ability...  Failing to make such an effort is anathema to me, and personally I feel it should be to everyone else...  Of course, that's my opinion, and we all know what those are worth...    :flushed:



> *Generally, I see alot of Chinese influence in Kenpo.  Some concepts and techniques are in fact similar to those found in Wing Chun, Taiji, and other systems.  A wrist lock is a wrist lock, regardless of its ethnic group.*



You'll get no argument from me on this...  All are One.



> *If we are talking in specifics, no, they are not the same.  The forms, base techniques, mechanics, etc are not the same.  They do however, compliment each other.  Kenpo (and Arnis and JKD) were influenced by several arts, sharing some common roots.*



I agree again.  But the basic statement was made that Kenpo and Taijiquan were essentially the same art.  If the person that made that statement would care to elaborate at length to explain his comment more fully, that would be a good thing.  However, taken on its face, the statement is blatantly in error.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Mar 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Just read Matt's post.  I guess we do have some of the same arguements and dissent. Oh well, typically we resolve it much faster (hint, hint guys) than is done on lots of other forums.
> 
> MONOLINGUIST - Good shot man!  Right across most of our bows (as in front of a ship, not the thing that shoots an arrow, or what you doing as you go onto the mat, not what some girls put in their hair or on packages.)
> ...



*Michael* - 

I'm not passing judgement on the "monolinguists."  I am not fluent in any language other than English, though I take being fluent in English quite seriously, and extend that feeling into any other language I attempt to learn.  I studied Japanese informally for the past 4 years, and have a passing command of simple things (spelling, grammar, sentence structure, some vocabulary and verb conjugation as well as cultural context), and I took a semester of Mandarin in college.  I also had 5 years of Spanish and one year of German in High School (8th through 12th grade).  Not that much, I admit, but enough to start me out with a decent appreciation of the power of communication.

My only real gripe is when languages are used incorrectly, and the person making the error is so cocky in their ignorance that they fail to see the immensity of their transgression...  I got a really big kick out of hearing Americans in Japan grousing about how the Japanese didn't understand them when they were speaking perfectly good English...  As if the Japanese had some moral imperative to speak English to the poor monolingual Americans while in Japan...

Personally, I avoid most non-English terms when training and teaching.  We have forms whose names are less clumsy in Chinese than in English, so I admit I go with the Chinese names in those instances...  But, since I speak English as my native language (as so our other students), I stick with that to explain things.  I haven't run into any trouble with it so far...  :lol:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 14, 2003)

> I disagree that the "common term" for CMA is "kung fu," and the "common term" for JMA is "karate." That is an oversimplification. I know for a fact that some FMAists get wrapped around the axle regarding the use of Arnis, Kali or Escrima in reference to their arts, and the ongoing (though very low key) debate regarding other arts and which title is correct in reference to them continues as well...



You're right, it is an oversimplification.  Unfortunately, me as the average uneducated guy, I know Kung Fu and karate, oh and Ninja.  Beyond that, I'm at the whim of Hollywood and the dirt sheets.  Heck, I used to think Bruce Lee did Karate when I was a rugrat.  I tried educating my mom about what I study..she didn't get it..I finally had no choice, I said 'its like karate'.  Then she sorta got it.



> It is this laxness in regards to correct language use that spills over into other aspects of training... I admit, I am a fanatic for this issue. But it stems from the daily, flagrant errors in my native tongue that I hear from native speakers who think they are "talkin' good English." Language and communication skills are things we use daily, unlike math, geography or martial arts. If we are to make ourselves properly understood to anyone with whom we converse, it is our sacred duty to do so to the best of our ability... Failing to make such an effort is anathema to me, and personally I feel it should be to everyone else... Of course, that's my opinion, and we all know what those are worth...



I try to be as correct as I can be...sadly, I cant tell a Kyu from a Gup despite being here almost 2 years.  Too many terms, too little time to master them all.  Sacred Duty?  I'll buy that.  I hope that in time, with the guidence I find amongst my peers, I'll be able to understand more of this every day. 



> I agree again. But the basic statement was made that Kenpo and Taijiquan were essentially the same art. If the person that made that statement would care to elaborate at length to explain his comment more fully, that would be a good thing. However, taken on its face, the statement is blatantly in error.



Having taken both Kenpo and Taijiquan, I agree.  They are complimentary, but not the same art.

:asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 14, 2003)

But the basic statement was made that Kenpo and Taijiquan were essentially the same art.  If the person that made that statement would care to elaborate at length to explain his comment more fully, that would be a good thing.  However, taken on its face, the statement is blatantly in error.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: [/B][/QUOTE] 

Help me out. Who said Kenpo and Taijiquan were essentially the same art?

Jeff


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## Matt Stone (Mar 25, 2003)

Just to bring this back to the top of the thread, could any of the kenpo folks here post their opinions?  I'm most especially interested in the opinions of the EPAK folks...

Thanks!


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## chufeng (Mar 25, 2003)

I am curious, too...

How is American or Ed Parker's Kempo the same?
Beyond the "all arts are one" notion?

Who here has heard of Sub Level 4 Kempo?
Is this the Kempo reserved for those over forty? Or is it a legitimate sub-branch of Ed parker's Kempo?

I know very little about Kempo other than the few people who I've trained with who were supposed exponents of the art.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Elfan (Mar 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Just to bring this back to the top of the thread, could any of the kenpo folks here post their opinions?  I'm most especially interested in the opinions of the EPAK folks...
> 
> Thanks! *



I voted in the "your kidding category."  They arn't the same any more than "karate" and "kung fu" are the same.  Are there similarities sure? Same, no.  




> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Who here has heard of Sub Level 4 Kempo?
> Is this the Kempo reserved for those over forty? Or is it a legitimate sub-branch of Ed parker's Kempo? *



haha over 40? nope.  Without starting a  flame war, sub level 4 is what Ron Chapel ( a Parker black belt) calls what he does and teaches.  Its a sub-branch of EPAK in that sense.


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## ob2c (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *It has been said... that kenpo... is essentially the same as Taijiquan...*



*"You've got to be kidding"*

They share some similarities, but are totally different arts.

Stances: TCC considers even weight distribution to be an undesireable condition, other than in transition. AK's Neutral Bow is an evenly distributed stance. Further, TCC works hard on staying rooted. AK "floats", or does a lot of its' footwork on the balls of the feet. AK does, however, work on keeping its' base. So there is a little similarity.

TCC considers AK and all external arts to be static. They are dynamic- their motion never stops. The next move starts before the last is completed. All movement starts in the muscles of the lower back, and these are in constant motion. AK does have better flow than other arts, so there is a little similarity. But it isn't quite the same concept.

Yielding: both TCC and AK use this principle. But it is one of the primary concepts and principles in TCC.

AK tends to alter and control the opponents dimensions with our strikes and stand up grappling. TCC tends to sense his force and use it against him. This is a difference of emphasis, as both styles do a lot of both. A lot of similarity here. Both use sensitivity, TCC more than AK.

There are a lot of similar strikes and natural weapons. But the footwork and quite a few of the strikes are done differently.

There is an internal component to most, if not all, external arts. Grappling, for example, has a serious internal component. So does Ving Tsun. I think AK definately has this. But in TCC it is all internal, all the time. 

Just some of what I see in the two styles. I'm a beggining student in Yang Tai Chi Chuan fa, and an intermediate student of American Kenpo. So there is obviously a lot more depth to both arts than I understand. But that's a start in comparing the two. Hope it helped.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 28, 2003)

Great post ob2c, there is lots more, but you were specific and concrete.  This is a hot thread, or was, over on the Tai Chi thread between Ron Chapel and the Internal Art's guys.

-Michael


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## yilisifu (Mar 28, 2003)

Nicely put!


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## Matt Stone (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *"You've got to be kidding"*



Thank you very much, ob2c, for that insightful explanation.  Too bad someone who professes to have been one of EP's direct students couldn't do as well as an intermediate student in "commercial" (Doc's term, not mine) kenpo did.

Way to go.  That answers a lot of questions, and I agree with your analysis 100% (as it relates to the taiji part - I have no way of knowing regaring the kenpo part).

Hey *Doc*, that was simple, wasn't it...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## D.Cobb (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If I were to misspell every single word in English that I wrote here, I suspect native English speakers would, in due time, tire of my misuse of the language commonly spoken here*




No, we'd just assume that you were American.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

--Dave.

(honest it was just a joke.....)


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## Matt Stone (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *No, we'd just assume that you were American.
> 
> :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
> ...



Y'know, if it weren't *true*, I'd probably be pissed...  Funny, too.

Nice one!


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## D.Cobb (Mar 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *
> One of Mr. Parkers great contibutions was to change the Language of EPAK to American English and decrease the number of these silly linguistic arguments.
> 
> Jeff *



Agreed he did change the language, to english, to get rid of the confusion between a front kick and a mae geri. But he didn't use or suggest we use incorrect spelling when refering to the Asian word. For example, he never said it was a my gairee. He said it was a front kick!

--Dave

:asian:


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## ob2c (Mar 29, 2003)

Well, my reply was my understanding of the arts I practice at this time. I know little to nothing about SL-4 Kenpo. I do know they do a lot of cavity strikes, which is an internal practice. I may disagree with Dr. Chapel (I don't know what was said, but apparently our opinions differ on this). But I'd certainly give a lot of consideration to his opinions as he is far more experienced. And I'd love nothing more than to get to where my TCC, Kenpo and grappling merge into one art! But I'm a long way from even thinking about that right now. (116 smilies here and I don't see a sigh :shrug: )


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## Matt Stone (Mar 29, 2003)

At first, I would have been inclined to consider *Doc*'s opinions and theories had he opted to provide some degree of comparison as you did.

However, his only attempt at clarification was to state and re-state who he had trained with over the years, as if this list was supposed to impress me into submission.

I agree that many arts eventually cross into other realms that are typically considered to be the desmesne of some particular art, usually far removed from the art in question.  "External" becomes "internal" as hard, tense strikes are relaxed and loosened, while "internal" becomes "external" as bodies are hardened and conditioned.  Et cetera, ad nauseum, ad infinitum.

Be that as it may, I was curious how a less esoteric comparison was being drawn between kenpo (allegedly of the EPAK lineage) and taijiquan.  No details were given to support the hypothesis.  The fact that such a lack of supporting information failed to come from so high ranking and allegedly well trained a personage led (and continues to lead) me to believe that the hypothesis is bunk.

I could be wrong, but until evidence comes to light to prove it, I figure I'm not.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Mar 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *Agreed he did change the language, to english, to get rid of the confusion between a front kick and a mae geri. But he didn't use or suggest we use incorrect spelling when refering to the Asian word. For example, he never said it was a my gairee. He said it was a front kick!
> 
> --Dave
> ...



Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling.  It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word.  I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.)  Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.  

As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.

Jeff


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## Matt Stone (Apr 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling.  It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word.*



It is acceptable only by those who don't know better, or by those who are content in their mediocrity to not care enough to do better than settle for what is commonly done (even when known and shown to be incorrect).



> *I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.)  Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.*



Sew, iff eye wuz to supell awl mi werds jist thuh waigh eye thawt eye culd, wuldnt u thingk thet purhapps, jist perhapps, eye shuld git with thuh purogramm an sturt 2 supell thum currektlee?

My point?  The paragraph I just wrote was "not the academic spelling," but it should be painfully obvious that it was flatly incorrect.  So do we sit back and allow such inadequacies to go unaddressed?  Why?  To spare the individual the momentary embarassment of having his shortcoming exposed?  Rather to have a moment of embarassment than a lifetime of ridicule for being inept...

As for the "glorious ever changing product of our culture," I suppose you mean the ongoing American tendency to use foreign words, incorrectly, for their own purposes with no concern for their proper meanings nor pronunciation.  Sure, other countries and languages do the same.  And they are just as wrong, as far as I'm concerned.  In Japan, baseball is _besuboru_.  Sure, it makes sense to them and accomodates their phonetics, but it is still wrong.  



> *As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.*



On this point you and I agree fully.  "Tai Chi" is that exercise done with no eye toward its martial roots and applications, but with only "health and wellness" in mind.  Admittedly, I have taught such a class, but did my damnedest to instill in the students a respect of the martial side...  The first class (and at the start of every class, especially with new students), all the students learned that the response to my question "Taijiquan is first and foremost...?" was "MARTIAL ARTS."  While the students I had in Japan did not practice the martial applications of the form, quite a bit of time was spent in understanding (through demonstration) what was going on in each posture.

I prefer to practice Taijiquan, personally...    But sometimes you have to reach out to those who don't know any better and help them to understand...

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> Sew, iff eye wuz to supell awl mi werds jist thuh waigh eye thawt eye culd, wuldnt u thingk thet purhapps, jist perhapps, eye shuld git with thuh purogramm an sturt 2 supell thum currektlee?
> 
> ...



My point is Tai chi is a generally accepted in American English and redily intelligible to most.  Interestingly "Tai chi" is in my 1985 "American Heritage Dictionary" And "Taiji" is not.  Taiji may be politically correct but it contains no more useful information. 

Your spelling above carries no historical precedent and is a specious argument.

We will just have to disagree.  

Jeff

P. S. Doc

Personally I'd like to hear more of what you have to say.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *Tai chi is not an incorrect spelling.  It is a perfectly acceptable American spelling of a chinese word.  I agree that it is not the academic spelling but you cannot legislate language (Although the French have tried for years.)  Language is a glorious ever changing product of our culture.
> 
> As an after thought I have noticed that most versions of Taijiquan taught in our nations Health clubs and Y's have little to do with Taiji's Asian roots and are best referred to as Tai chi.
> ...



The scariest part of all this, is that your attitude as expressed above, is the politically correct one.
I don't know about the US but here in Aust. phonetics is a politically correct way of doing things. The unfortunate part of phonetics is that when you reach university and you need to look a word up in the dictionary, you will never find it because you don't know how to spell it. 

Just because everybody does it, doesn't make it right!

Oh and on a lighter note;
                             How come *PHONETICS* isn't spelt the way it sounds? 

--Dave

:rofl:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *Your spelling above carries no historical precedent and is a specious argument.
> 
> We will just have to disagree.   *



I don't need historical precedent.  Have you ever studied Chinese language formally?  The official method of transliteration of Chinese phonetics into a romanized format is Pinyin.  Wade-Giles used to be used, and was the common format for a long time, but has been replaced by Pinyin.

Period.

There are a lot of things that are generally accepted in other countries, but Americans have this tenacious habit of expecting folks in other countries to cater to American refusal to cure their ignorance.  Why should I settle for generally accepted when I know it is incorrect?  Maybe the lesson of "would you do it if all your friends did it" never really sank in for some folks...  It did with me, and just because everyone does something (though incorrect) doesn't mean I have to fall in line just to conform...

Continue to disagree with me.  Whatever.    Your adherence to your ignorance will only weigh you down, while it affects me not one whit.  Your opinions carry no historical precedent, and your specious arguement in favor of mediocrity speaks louder than any rebuttal I could make.

Enjoy.

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *The scariest part of all this, is that your attitude as expressed above, is the politically correct one.
> I don't know about the US but here in Aust. phonetics is a politically correct way of doing things. The unfortunate part of phonetics is that when you reach university and you need to look a word up in the dictionary, you will never find it because you don't know how to spell it.
> 
> ...



I didn't recommend phonetic spelling.  I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English.  It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.

Jeff


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## D.Cobb (Apr 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *I didn't recommend phonetic spelling.  I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English.  It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.
> 
> Jeff *



Tai Chi is the phonetic, and not the correct spelling and you know it. 

As for tweaking people, that puts you in the same class as senseii mike and we can all hope you end up with the same treatment.

And if you are referring to Matt Stone as having a grand opinion of himself, then I fear you are sadly mistaken. At no time either here or in private messages to me, has he put himself across as anything but a reasonable and intelligent person. One we could all learn quite a lot from. Hopefully one day he and I will meet and I would be quite happy to call him friend.

I get the feeling that the character, Adrian, from the book, The Chroncles of Clovis, by Saki, was speaking of people such as yourself when he said, "I love Americans, but not when they talk French. What a blessing it is that they never try to talk English."

--Dave

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpodoc _
> *I didn't recommend phonetic spelling.  I merely stated that Tai chi is an acceptable spelling in American English.  It's also a lot of fun to tweak people who have a grand opinion of themselves.
> 
> Jeff *



It is nice to see that folks with vocabularies as seemingly large as yours acting in such a mature fashion.  (most simple folks like me use "false," "wrong," "incorrect," or even "untrue" rather than "specious," but then most simple folks aren't trying to impress others with how little they know, either...)  Your profile says you are a physician...  I would think that someone with that kind of background would find other entertainment, rather than attempting to bait people on the internet, but then I guess it takes all kinds...

*Dave* - 

You speak far too well of me.  When you have met me and we have trained together, then you will have enough info to make a call on what kind of person I am.  For all you know I am a first rate a$$hole.  While I thank you for the kind comments, don't worry about chiming in to defend me from guys like this.  I am starting to see a trend in the kind of people that take a disliking to me, and they are all cut from the same cloth.

I have been thinking about some vacation plans for next year...  Can you recommend anything in Oz of particular merit?  I meant to get down that way when I was living in Japan, but it just never happened...

And the only grand opinion I have of myself is the amount of sushi I can eat.  Anyone will tell you that beyond my ability to consume comestibles (Kenpodoc, that means food... but the etymology is Middle French, from Medieval Latin _comestibilis_, from Latin _comestus_, past participle of _comedere_ to eat, from _com-_ + _edere_ to eat.    )

Gambarimasu.
:asian: :tank: :asian:


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## Kirk (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *And the only grand opinion I have of myself is the amount of sushi I can eat.  *



Betcha I'd (figuratively) kick your butt at eating steamed snow
crab legs vs. you eating sushi.  You would be in awe at my 
abilities, *boy!*


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## Matt Stone (Apr 6, 2003)

I don't mean to flame, but with the training I have received by my wife (who is Filipino), I'd smoke your proverbial bags if it came down to just eating crab...

COME GET SOME!!!

If you ever make it up this way, consider the gauntlet dropped!


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## Kirk (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If you ever make it up this way, consider the gauntlet dropped! *



So be it!  And likewise for you and yours, down this way!
(I might even spring)


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## Michael Billings (Apr 7, 2003)

The operative word is "might".  

Mmmm... Mmmm.....


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## D.Cobb (Apr 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *It is nice to see that folks with vocabularies as seemingly large as yours acting in such a mature fashion.  (most simple folks like me use "false," "wrong," "incorrect," or even "untrue" rather than "specious," but then most simple folks aren't trying to impress others with how little they know, either...)  Your profile says you are a physician...  I would think that someone with that kind of background would find other entertainment, rather than attempting to bait people on the internet, but then I guess it takes all kinds...
> 
> Dave -
> ...




Maybe I was wrong about you....

Hey I wasn't actually defending you, as such. I was only disagreeing with, what I felt was an incorrect(specious) description of you. All I did was comment on how you have communicated with me.

As to things to see here in Aust., you name it we've got it. If you surf, we have surf. If you eatrofl: ) you need to come to Melbourne. We have the best restaurants in the world. If you want theme parks, you'd better go to Queensland in the north. If you want to see desert, you can go to central and west. We have the best beaches of anywhere in the world. Oh and I almost forgot, with Mike and myself, as well as many who don't post here or not as often, we have the friendliest martial artists in the world.

 

--Dave
As they say on TV, *"C'MON DOWN!!"*


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## Kirk (Apr 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *--Dave
> As they say on TV, "C'MON DOWN!!" *



You forgot to say that you'd "put a shrimp on the barbie" for him.


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## D.Cobb (Apr 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *You forgot to say that you'd "put a shrimp on the barbie" for him.
> *



Nah mate! Down here, we don't actually call them shrimp. If you saw the size of our king prawns, you'd know why. As you could probably figure from the previous sentence, we call them prawns.

The best thing about these puppies, is you don't really need to cook them if you don't want to. You just tear their heads off,(they make great finger puppets for grossing out children ), crack their shells, remove the black stripe from up their back, (that's the poop tube.:shrug: ), and eat them, ooooooh my mouth is watering just thinking about it....

--Dave

:asian:


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## parkerkarate (Feb 11, 2004)

From what I have seen, Kenpo has been influenced by Kung Fu. We use a lot of circular motions and elaborate motions in techniques. I can especially say this while I am learning long form 6. This form does not stop at all between techniques, so in some ways it looks like Kung Fu until you empisize power. Tai Chi to me is just slow Kung Fu, I am sorry if I said something mean to anyone in this post but it is just how I feel.


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## 8253 (Mar 12, 2004)

I havent a clue


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