# Judo Students Required to Take Karate by Instructor?



## Nick Stanovic (May 31, 2012)

I found a Judo/Jujutsu school in my city but I am suspicious of weather it is a McDojo because it also requires students to take/pay for one Karate class per week. I really don't know a whole lot so I could be wrong about my accusation but why is the school forcing Judo students to take Karate? I though Judo could be a good self defense system on its own.

This is the school's Judo website: http://www.hickeykaratecenter.com/hickeykaratecenter.com/HKCJudoJujitsu.html

The owner/head instructor says to have these qualifications:

Shihan Hickey holds the following ranks and titles:​ 8th Dan Kwanmukan Ju-Jitsu
  8th Dan US Ju-Jitsu 
  6th Dan Traditional Kodokan Judo  
  General Secretary, USA Karate Federation
  Chief Kwanmukan Instructor
  Chief Judo Instructor for Kwanmukan
  1981 Inductee USA Karate Hall of Fame

I just think it is fishy to tell students that Judo is not good enough on its own so you are required to also take one Karate class per week. Please look at the website let me know if I am getting the wrong impression 
​


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## Carol (May 31, 2012)

Agreed, Nick.  

Plus, all the high ranks listed are of dubious lineage...methinks your suspicions are warranted.



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## Nick Stanovic (May 31, 2012)

Thank you very much for the quick response! I found it hard to believe that an instructor would not have confidence enough in his/her teachings to say that I would need to take another MA as well. When I read that I thought that it is pretty convenient to expect students to also take Karate and conveniently the school offers Karate. I don't think going to a place focused on just one MA would tell me that their system is incomplete so I better take lessons at another school to supplement what I am being taught. It would also be very confusing to me to try and learn two Arts at once because I would probably confuse them and fail at both


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## K-man (May 31, 2012)

I would also be wary. 'Tiger Kai' Karate?  For a highly regarded 10th Dan, there is remarkably little information about him on the net.  And, if I wanted to learn judo, I wouldn't necessarily want to learn karate.

Interesting that if you want to be part of his demo team, *you *have to pay extra to promote his school.    Mmm!   :asian:


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## Never_A_Reflection (Jun 1, 2012)

In addition to what has already been said, I watched their videos--the one karate video they thought was good enough to post online looks weak and lacking focus, not to mention the fact that it looks like a demonstration of Kusanku Sho that has had all sorts of junk added to it, so the quality is just as suspect as the lineage and history of the instructor. That is just my opinion, of course.  That said, even if the instructor is highly skilled I would not be particularly fond of being forced to attend classes that I did not want to take--having the option to take them is definitely nice, but that isn't the same.


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## Chris Parker (Jun 1, 2012)

Run from them. Very far. Very fast. Screaming if you feel you need to.

I found the main website for this "Kwanmukan" thing (hmm, a mix of Chinese, maybe Korean maybe alternate Japanese pronunciations? Not a good sign already...), and the information was worrying to say the least... but then I decided to look over some of their videos. Including their demo team ones from 2011 (the most recent clips up).

There is nothing good there at all.

Hell, half of it is badly done acrobatics or poorly done breakdancing!!! When it gets to the "martial arts", the less said the better. And the fact that it all seems to be kids (who wouldn't have a clue how bad what they're learning is) really concerns me.

Let's see if this works, actually. I'm going to try to embed one of the demo videos... it's listed as a "private link" on you-tube, but should work.






Oh, and for reference, here's the main site: http://www.kwanmukan.us/

Run. Far. Fast.

EDIT: Okay, the video worked, so now I've seen it all the way through (couldn't quite bring myself to earlier), and something needs to be said.

If you go to about 6:30 you see a couple of adult black belts with swords. Now, this being a family site, there is no way I can adequately express what I am thinking as I watch that complete and utter embarrassment of anything claiming to be related to martial arts, and sword in particular. Absolutely nothing in it was close to swordsmanship, everything they did would get you killed immediately, they didn't even wear the damn things the right way up to begin with!!!! Based on that part alone, they are a lawsuit waiting to happen, and so lost in their own delusions that there really is no hope for them whatsoever. 

I'm now going to emphasize the screaming as you run. Scream that others may also avoid them.


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## elder999 (Jun 1, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> If you go to about 6:30 you see a couple of adult black belts with swords. Now, this being a family site, there is no way I can adequately express what I am thinking as I watch that complete and utter embarrassment of anything claiming to be related to martial arts, and sword in particular. Absolutely nothing in it was close to swordsmanship, everything they did would get you killed immediately, they didn't even wear the damn things the right way up to begin with!!!! Based on that part alone, they are a lawsuit waiting to happen, and so lost in their own delusions that there really is no hope for them whatsoever.



OMFG! 




Chris Parker said:


> Run from them. Very far. Very fast. Screaming if you feel you need to.
> 
> There is nothing good there at all.
> 
> I'm now going to emphasize the screaming as you run. *Scream that others may also avoid them*.




yup. :lol:

Oh, and for this:



Chris Parker said:


> *Scream so that others may also avoid them*



You owe me a monitor and a cup of coffee.....:lfao:


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## Sanke (Jun 1, 2012)

elder999 said:


> You owe me a monitor and a cup of coffee.....:lfao:



You must be running out of computer parts at this rate! :uhyeah:


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## elder999 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sanke said:


> You must be running out of computer parts at this rate! :uhyeah:



yeah, I laugh a lot-fortunately, I've got a few computers.....


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## Sanke (Jun 1, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Run from them. Very far. Very fast. Screaming if you feel you need to.
> 
> I found the main website for this "Kwanmukan" thing (hmm, a mix of Chinese, maybe Korean maybe alternate Japanese pronunciations? Not a good sign already...), and the information was worrying to say the least... but then I decided to look over some of their videos. Including their demo team ones from 2011 (the most recent clips up).
> 
> ...



Oh yes, and as for the 'sword' work in the demonstration:

OH GOD MY EYES!


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2012)

Ok. Let's look for some positives.  They do claim that the demo team trains basic gymnastics.  As someone who competed at a reasonable level and taught gymnastics this demo would just squeak it at the lower end of the scale. However, some of them were rather little.  They had some fun.   

Now the sword.  That was like something from the Pirates of Penzance!   Obviously it wasn't meant to be Japanese.


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## elder999 (Jun 1, 2012)

K-man said:


> Now the sword. That was like something from the Pirates of Penzance! Obviously it wasn't meant to be Japanese.




Oh, sir! I think you insult almost all productions of Gilbert and Sullivan by saying as much! :lol:


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Oh, sir! I think you insult almost all productions of Gilbert and Sullivan by saying as much! :lol:


True! But culture isn't my long suit.    :cheers:


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## JWLuiza (Jun 1, 2012)

I wonder how the public perceived that demo. Not my cup of tea.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2012)

Guess who is in charge of the USA Karate Hall of Fame


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 1, 2012)

From what I could find; he is ranked a 7th Dan in Traditional Kudokan Judo under the USJJF.  He is not listed on either the USJA or USJF website.  From what I have seen, most people hold a higher rank under USJJF than they do do in USJA/USJF due to not having the competition requirement.

Not sure about the karate portion of the school.


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 1, 2012)

http://www.usjjf.org/bio/hickey/index.htm


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## sfs982000 (Jun 1, 2012)

That actually left me speechless LOL, I just have to shake my head at that whole thing.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Guess who is in charge of the USA Karate Hall of Fame



I haven't had a chance to look at any of this yet, but I'd guess probably Shihan Hickey...


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 1, 2012)

Finally got a chance to watch video (initially viewed this post from my mobile) and feel embarrassed that this guy is a member of the same org (USJJF) as me 

All the other members I have seen from USJJF would not have conducted such a Mickey Mouse display of martial arts.


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## punisher73 (Jun 1, 2012)

Ya know, my first thought was that for a certain time period up a certain rank, I could see requiring Judo students to take an inhouse karate class (at no additional charge/cost) to learn some basics on punching and kicking and then applying that to Judo's self-defense katas to understand a proper attack so you could do a proper defense.  I remember when I studied Aikido for a short time, no on in the class knew how to throw even a basic punch unless they had other training.  Even though punching/kicking was not a part of that branch of Aikido, it would have benefited the students to understand what they were really dealing with.

Much like many people say if you are going to teach takedown defense, you should know how to properly do a takedown.

I thought all of that, and then looked at the website.  I don't know how/where they got the ranking on that.  The founder of the style only talks about his karate background and then mentions out of nowhere starting a JJ federation.  So, I'm not sure where that came from.

As to the demo.  Who knows who the target audience was or it's purpose.  Was it to just have entertainment and have the kids have fun?  If so great.  If it was to show effective techniques in a variety of situations or to properly show what is being taught.  Epic Fail.  Also, have any of you ever been to a child's piano recital?  Not always the best, but it's a chance for them to be proud of their effort and I wouldn't judge the piano teacher on the effort and ability of some of the students.  Remember, people have different reasons for doing martial arts and not everyone is top notch athletic ability.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2012)

Without looking at the vid, on the surface, there is nothing wrong with a teacher teaching Karate concepts to Judo students. Sometimes, you just need to crack 'em in the Jaw.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I haven't had a chance to look at any of this yet, but I'd guess probably Shihan Hickey...



BINGO!!!!

I knew I picked the right person for Xuefu #2 and to head Xuefu west


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> BINGO!!!!
> 
> I knew I picked the right person for Xuefu #2 and to head Xuefu west



Oh I'm one smart cookie, yessiree!  I'm probably the best that I know of.


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## Nick Stanovic (Jun 1, 2012)

I am surprised this thread has so much feedback and I appreciate all of it. It looks like I will be trying to enroll with the Kent State University Green Dragon Kung Fu Club and hoping to learn Chin Na since there isn't a Judo school around the 44224 ZIP. I saw videos of people using Judo as self defense during store robberies and it looks a lot easier to apply than try to land strikes from other MAs. The ability to learn how to properly fall with minimal risk of injury seems like a skill I would use often.


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## K-man (Jun 1, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> Oh I'm one smart cookie, yessiree!  I'm probably the best that I know of.


:lfao:


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## jks9199 (Jun 1, 2012)

Sanke said:


> Oh yes, and as for the 'sword' work in the demonstration:
> 
> OH GOD MY EYES!



About all I can say is that the "demo" was high energy.  The gymnastics was barely above poor.  The dance was worse.  The kicks and other empty hand martial arts... even worse.  'Til the swords...  About all I can say about that is that, fortunately, the wall-hangers they were playing with didn't break.  (I presume they were wall-hangers 'cause I can't believe that anyone who'd put that demo on knows better...)


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## jks9199 (Jun 1, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> Without looking at the vid, on the surface, there is nothing wrong with a teacher teaching Karate concepts to Judo students. Sometimes, you just need to crack 'em in the Jaw.



Actually, that part, IN AND OF ITSELF AS AN IDEA, I don't have a problem with at all.  In fact, as I understand it, many karate students in Japan are also judo students -- though I could very easily be wrong in that.  I could see it, especially if the required class was one that focused on overlapping issues or conditioning -- or served as atemi training for the judoka.

But -- based on the "demo" -- I'll go with Chris Parker:  Run screaming so that others will run away, too!


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Run from them. Very far. Very fast. Screaming if you feel you need to.
> 
> 
> I'm now going to emphasize the screaming as you run. Scream that others may also avoid them.



I just had a chance to watch the video.  Ayup, I agree.  Double time.


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## Carol (Jun 1, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Oh, sir! I think you insult almost all productions of Gilbert and Sullivan by saying as much! :lol:



Oh come on.  

I am the very model of a self promoted system head
I'm certified, vegetable, animal, and mineral
I've trained the Kings of England and fought the fights historical
From Marathon to Waterloo, in order scizophrenical.

For my military knowledge, though plagiarized and fictional
Has only been brought down with the arrival of the internet
But still along with profiteering, made-up arts and belts for sale
I am the very model of a self promoted system head!




(uhhh....maybe its not such a good idea go post after playing a 3 hour gig with the band....)






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## sfs982000 (Jun 2, 2012)

Well honestly after watching the video again I was actually expecting for a couple of folks to come out and demonstrate the Dillman no-touch knockout


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2012)

sfs982000 said:


> Well honestly after watching the video again I was actually expecting for a couple of folks to come out and demonstrate the Dillman no-touch knockout



I've watched one of them, I actually managed to impress myself by not laughing out loud and waiting until I was outside to laugh so much I was crying. Funnily enough the group, who say Dillman taught them, were scheduled to do another demo at another seminar i was at but didn't, I'm thinking it was because Iain Abernethy was there as one of the instructors.


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## WCman1976 (Jun 3, 2012)

Damn. At first I thought it sounded like a cool idea. I mean, yes it would be kind of cheesy for an instructor to force a different style on you...even for one class. It would have sounded better if they didn't charge for the different style. At any rate, it sounded cool that a grappling instructor would want his students to learn from a striking style as well.

Then I got to the video, and I quickly fell in agreement with what everyone else said about this place.

Too bad. They had a GERM of a good idea, but less than zero execution!


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## K-man (Jun 3, 2012)

WCman1976 said:


> Damn. At first I thought it sounded like a cool idea. I mean, yes it would be kind of cheesy for an instructor to force a different style on you...even for one class. It would have sounded better if they didn't charge for the different style. At any rate, it sounded cool that a grappling instructor would want his students to learn from a striking style as well.
> 
> Then I got to the video, and I quickly fell in agreement with what everyone else said about this place.
> 
> Too bad. They had a GERM of a good idea, but less than zero execution!


As a comparison, I study Aikido.  We recognise the places where you use atemi. We don't practise kicks but we do practise strikes. They are different to karate punches so if I was an Aikido student in a school that did not train atemi, and the sensei sent me off to learn karate, I would actually be learning the wrong thing.  Judo also had strikes and kicks in its martial form.  IMHO, if the instructor was any good he would be training the strikes and kicks he wants, in his normal judo class.   :asian:


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## teekin (Nov 8, 2012)

OMFG.......No, No, No.......anyone who has done any amount of real formal gymnastics training would watch the way one or two of those children planted, took off, broke form in flight and then fell out of the landing and then screeched at the monitor screen while hiding thier eyes. Just the bass-ackwards stumbling is enough to ensure a law-suit. I can see small limbs being broken, I can garr-an-tee it. If I had a child in that school and saw that, I'd swoop across the mat, scoop up my kid, stuff them in the car, come back in, kick the teacher in the head a few times and be gone. Keee-rist! A White-belt Judoka knows how to fall! These kids don't even know that! My guess is this guy has watch a few UFC, a few Pride, some Jackie Chan, Every Jean Claude and Segal movie ever made and decided to start a scam. I hope a decent MAist cleans his clock. ( a decent mauy thia guy if there is a God)


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## Egon (Nov 8, 2012)

This is probably martial arts at it's worst. Even no touch knockouts and Yellow Bamboos are better. Even if we look gymnastics and sport side, this poor child don't know how to fall or do a handstand. And those two with swords are to old for blaming like this.


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## Aiki Lee (Nov 9, 2012)

It's like a circus, with hoops and everything.


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## Curlykarateka (Feb 15, 2013)

To be fair, he may have a point that judo in itself doesn't have any focus on striking, which can be s disadvantage as most guys will try to punch you. However, i cannot see why he can't teach both at once, as far as I can see Judo and Karate seem like a perfect combo and can easily be taught side by side. Ask the sensei about it


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## SacredCoconut (Feb 15, 2013)

Well the idea in my mind is not bad. We had one class about falling, done by hapkido practisioner, because hes better at it. This was during our normal practice times.


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