# Need Something to Learn for SD



## stonewall1350 (Aug 13, 2015)

So I am looking to get into a self defense system. I already know Brazilian jujitsu. I train that as my sport art. I have a couple of kickers to add to this. So here they are:

1) I'm big. I'm about 6'1, but heavy. I'm looking for something that I can use my size and strength.

2) I carry a firearm 90% of the time in public (licensed and prospective law enforcement anyway...once I can get my girlfriend settled on her career path it will be my turn). I would like to have something that lets me get that into action.

3) I don't have a lot of time and I believe in fighting dirty. I don't do fist fights. I don't fight for pride. I'm not a "tough guy." I want something that really emphasizes quick and dirty and hard strikes.

4) I'm scared poopieless of knives. So something that teaches me to handle those would be nice.

I don't have a lot of time free either. But right now I'm just "shopping" for ideas. 


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## ST1Doppelganger (Aug 14, 2015)

Kali and or escrima I think would fit the circumstances that you described pretty well 

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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

stonewall1350 said:


> So I am looking to get into a self defense system. I already know Brazilian jujitsu. I train that as my sport art. I have a couple of kickers to add to this. So here they are:



Bearing in mind that physical engagement is only a very small part of what is "self defence", let's take a look at this.



stonewall1350 said:


> 1) I'm big. I'm about 6'1, but heavy. I'm looking for something that I can use my size and strength.



Irrelevant.

Look, stonewall, you've been around long enough to have seen this type of question from many, many others… so you know how this goes. Frankly, there isn't any art that is "better" or "worse"… it all comes down to how you make any particular art work for you and your physical situation. I'd also caution against looking to something that would rely on capitalising on such attributes… no-one attacks someone they think has an advantage over them, so such aspects are largely going to be nullified by the attacker, either by numbers, weapons, experience, drugs/alcohol, or simply by being bigger and stronger.



stonewall1350 said:


> 2) I carry a firearm 90% of the time in public (licensed and prospective law enforcement anyway...once I can get my girlfriend settled on her career path it will be my turn). I would like to have something that lets me get that into action.



You want the option of employing a firearm? Get to the range, and practice deploying/accessing it constantly.In terms of a system that will incorporate it… you're going to have to look at modern combatives systems… such as Krav Maga. Some Bujinkan schools incorporate the ideas, at varying levels of competence, but Krav would be the more likely go-to.

As far as getting your girlfriend on her career path first… hmm… honestly, if you were one of my students, there'd be some rather pointed questions… but I'll leave it here as saying that I'd advise you take a real look at why you're giving your priorities in that order… are you using her lack of career as an excuse not to look to yours?



stonewall1350 said:


> 3) I don't have a lot of time and I believe in fighting dirty. I don't do fist fights. I don't fight for pride. I'm not a "tough guy." I want something that really emphasizes quick and dirty and hard strikes.



Yeah… look, again, largely irrelevant. Going into learning a system with a pre-determined idea of what you like, then you'll leave yourself closed off to learning how the system itself teaches what (it feels) works.



stonewall1350 said:


> 4) I'm scared poopieless of knives. So something that teaches me to handle those would be nice.



Okay… many systems will do that… but have quite different approaches. 

But, as always, looking for something that suits a customised ideal of your pre-conceptions of what you think works, or is important, is never going to be a fruitful search… and, in the end, it's more important to find a school you can get to, with an instructor you can respect and listen to, that you can dedicate time and effort to. Having a system that's perfectly matched to your ideals, but on the other side of the country (or world), or the instructor is someone you can't learn from (or doesn't know what they're doing), then it's pointless just looking at that system. So the first question is always: What's around that you can visit? followed by: Have you visited them?



stonewall1350 said:


> I don't have a lot of time free either. But right now I'm just "shopping" for ideas.



Then let me get a little blunt.

You're wanting essentially a custom-designed system, but don't have the time to dedicate to it, or even look for it? Honestly, I don't see a lot of success in this area for you unless something there changes.


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2015)

Can't add anything to the above but just wanted to say I liked the expression_ 'scared poopieless'! _


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## stonewall1350 (Aug 14, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Can't add anything to the above but just wanted to say I liked the expression_ 'scared poopieless'! _



 I couldn't think of a nice way of saying I DETEST knives with a passion. They scare me. Idk why. I suppose they are completely foreign to me as a combat system. 


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## Tez3 (Aug 14, 2015)

stonewall1350 said:


> I couldn't think of a nice way of saying I DETEST knives with a passion. They scare me. Idk why. I suppose they are completely foreign to me as a combat system.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Very sensible to be scared of knives to be honest, I wish more people were so they'd give then some respect and stop teaching this 'just kick it out of the hand' rot. There is an awful lot of bad knife defence being taught.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 14, 2015)

I remember taking some of my guys through their first exposure to knife defence a while back… I asked for feedback afterwards, to see what they gained out of the experience, and one of the more experienced ones said "Knives are scary!".

Damn straight.

Last thing I wanted was to give them a false sense of safety.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 14, 2015)

Take a look and see if there is some Filipino Martial Arts in your area specifically Pekiti Tirisa or Dekiti Tirsia.  Dekiti is quick to learn, deals with edged weapons and takes into account firearms.


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## kuniggety (Aug 15, 2015)

I see adding specifically knife training or heading to a range and practicing with your hand gun both very beneficial. For something "quick and dirty" though, what about your BJJ training is not cutting it? Is your school too sport oriented for your tastes and not teaching more of the self-defense side? I think if you focus on more of your stand up game in BJJ it should work well for most self-defense situations. I can see you've been training in it for 5 years now... So you're probably an advanced blue or maybe a purple belt? I've been training for less than half of the time you have and feel very comfortable using my BJJ in a self-defense scenario.


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## Hanzou (Aug 15, 2015)

I agree with the poster who suggested Kali and Escrima. I think their stick/baton training would be very good for a police officer, since they use similar weaponry. Also it always helps knowing knife disarms, and those guys have some of the best around.


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## Danny T (Aug 15, 2015)

Martial Arts training and self defense training are two completely different animals. LEO training is yet another.
Handgun firearm target training and close quarter handgun firearm training are two completely different animals.
Be aware there are numerous FMA (Escrima and Kali systems) which are stick systems not edged weapon systems. There are many aspects of empty hand and stick systems that will get you badly hurt when applied vs an edged weapon or as an edged weapon system.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 16, 2015)

@stonewall1350

I would actually consider a good Krav Maga school. It will give you gross motor strikes that will compliment your BJJ well, and in which your strength would be a good advantage. Anyone who says that is irellevant for fighting, should try some honest sparring with someone at their own skill level, but at twice their own size. There is a reason most full contact combat sports employ weight classes. 

Also, any good (and there is many bad Krav Maga schools, which is why I emphasize "good") Krav Maga school will also focus a lot on scenario training, awareness of ones environment, de-escalation and escape, improvised wepons as well as weapon defenses(included unarmed against knife) trained with increasing íntensity as you get better at the techniques, all of which is a great way to get better prepared for self defence situations. While Kali/Escrima is good if you want to learn knife _fighting, _that is _dueling_ with knives, their knife disarms and knife strips is generally quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements(same as with my own primary art, Hapkido), which at least_ I_ wouldn't reccomend in any real world unarmed self defense situations against an armed adversary, unless you are_ very_ skilled and have extensive training at performing under a high adrenaline load.

My two cents.


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## Argus (Aug 16, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> @stonewall1350
> 
> I would actually consider a good Krav Maga school. It will give you gross motor strikes that will compliment your BJJ well, and in which your strength would be a good advantage. Anyone who says that is irellevant for fighting, should try some honest sparring with someone at their own skill level, but at twice their own size. There is a reason most full contact combat sports employ weight classes.
> 
> ...



I would actually challenge that statement. While some may approach it that way, most of what I've experienced first hand is quite combative and looking to quickly and efficiently end the confrontation.

Again, though, it depends on the school. Some may be big on "sparring" in such a way that resembles a duel, or sportive bout, in which neither participant is really being aggressive or trying to engage their opponent or escape. I would agree that this kind of practice is not really replicating a self-defense context. But then, I've not personally encountered this.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 17, 2015)

Well, seems like our experiences differ then. Or we may just look at the same thing trough different filters, which would give us different perspectives.

My experience with FMA have primarily been seminars in Doce Pares, Kali Sikaran and Bahala Na, as well as various instructional DVDs in the same arts. But I have never experience that seminar/dvd content differ enormously from regular practice in any of the other arts that I have attended regular practice in for years, so I'm not really sure why it would be much different with FMAs.


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## geezer (Aug 17, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> Well, seems like our experiences differ then. Or we may just look at the same thing trough different filters, which would give us different perspectives.
> 
> My experience with FMA have primarily been seminars in Doce Pares, Kali Sikaran and Bahala Na, as well as various instructional DVDs in the same arts. But I have never experience that seminar/dvd content differ enormously from regular practice in any of the other arts that I have attended regular practice in for years, so I'm not really sure why it would be much different with FMAs.



I have to agree with Argus that your previous statement was a generalization and not totally accurate. On the other hand, it is a true enough description of a lot of what you see out there, especially on _Youtube_.

So why should it be different with FMAs? I don't know if it is for _some_ other FMAs. On the other hand, the term FMA covers a lot of territory. The systems you mentioned above are just a few among many, and many systems do not have a big public face.

My foundation is_ Latosa Escrima Concepts _which is _very_ direct and powerful, not complex and "artsy". I also train with Maestro Martin Torres'_ DTE-MMA_ group and their Eskrima is similarly practical. My own school teaches PCE (Practical Combative Escrima)  which is also very direct, but taught in a way that integrates well with my Wing Chun classes. None of these have much of a public presence.

Based on the OP, FMAs ...(the right FMA) really fit the ticket. I would recommend that _*Stonewall*_ check out something like _Mike Blackgrave's Seamok_ group. Mike's also big strong guy with some hardcore training that would be right up his alley. Or maybe _Mark Dennys Kali Tudo_ or other _Dog Brothers_ stuff. Anyway, @Stonewall--best of luck in your search.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 17, 2015)

I am fully aware of the fact that my view is based on a limited selection, and are open to the possibility that I either didn't see enough of the arts I sampled to be able to make a wellinformed view, or that those arts aren't representative to all the other FMA out there. But I am also open to the possibility that our difference in view may be about differences in perspective and in what we would perceive and define as "quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements".


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## Sapphire (Aug 17, 2015)

krotty or bust, yo.

Just kidding.   In my experience, you're not going to get the experience I got from my Kung Fu school, or the experience someone else got at their boxing school.  That's why shopping and trying and studying are your best options.  As long as you train safe, train smart, and train hard, you'll be all set.  But things I personally encourage my friends to look out for is:
1. if you're looking for self defense, keep asking about that.  Don't let them sell you on forms, katas, and fantasies of beating up 10 men.  The best way to do that is by _attending a class.  _Because if you do, and they don't do a lick of throwing around a big guy like you, it's just not worth your time.  That same thing can be said for cardio or a fun hobby.  If they're not giving you what you ask for in your intro class, you're not at the right place.
2. Find a place that encourages you to always do better.  Not just "learn the form pass the test" blackbelt factories.  Your instructor should be leaps and bounds better than you at most exercises.  If your instructor is a 40 year old man with a noticeable beer gut and no definition to his arms at all, he definitely won't encourage _me_ to work out more.
3. Empty your cup.  I know it's a cute little wise old man cliché but it has value.  If you show up convinced that you know what to do in situation a, b, or xyz32-7, then you're not going to learn anything because your ego has already taught you.  It blew my mind when my Sifu explained that there's no technique for one situation, and that playing match-up games with techniques is dangerous.  I thought he was crazy, but now I get it.


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## ballen0351 (Aug 17, 2015)

I have nothing to add on the style to pick but if your reason for getting into law enforcement is to "get into the action" please dont.  Things are already hard enough on us now as it is with out that kind of attitude trying to join the ranks


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## Argus (Aug 17, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> I am fully aware of the fact that my view is based on a limited selection, and are open to the possibility that I either didn't see enough of the arts I sampled to be able to make a wellinformed view, or that those arts aren't representative to all the other FMA out there. But I am also open to the possibility that our difference in view may be about differences in perspective and in what we would perceive and define as "quite complicated and employs many fine motor movements".



I was arguing the "geared towards duelling" point, more so than the gross motor skills point. I will say that, coming from a WC background, much of FMA seem to me to train gross motor skills, but that's where our perspectives on what constitutes "gross" or "fine" motorskills differ.

I think the discussion of gross vs fine motor skills often overlooks the nature of the skill involved. I've trained under enough stress to begin inducing difficulty with fine motor skills, and generally, I have no problem using the more fine-motor skills such as we employ in WC, or arguably, FMA, because they nonetheless flow and are intuitive. What trips me up are very sequential, mechanical actions -- for example, accessing a folding knife in your pocket, orienting it the right way, finding the locking mechanism with your thumb, activating it and extending or flipping the blade, and then reorienting the knife into a useful grip. Or, remembering to say, actuate external safeties on a firearm. These are not intuitive actions, and their sequences cannot be altered, and that's why these skills break down so quickly under stress. But I think that more intuitive use of one's hands -- even when this entails fine motor skills, is a different animal. After all, I'd argue that aiming a handgun and pressing the trigger are far more involved fine-motor skill actions than the majority of empty hand or blade/impact weapon techniques we practice in WC or FMA.

I should also point out that TMAs spend a lot of time on building skills as opposed to just focusing on application. So, when you see these complicated patterns and flow drills where each practitioner is going back and forth forever, that kind of thing is not meant to simulate a fight or duel -- it's just a drill to make particular skills and reactions more intuitive. So, don't confuse everything you see with direct application.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 18, 2015)

Argus said:


> I should also point out that TMAs spend a lot of time on building skills as opposed to just focusing on application. So, when you see these complicated patterns and flow drills where each practitioner is going back and forth forever, that kind of thing is not meant to simulate a fight or duel -- it's just a drill to make particular skills and reactions more intuitive. *So, don't confuse everything you see with direct application.*



As a black belt in two TMAs, as well as having quite extensive experience in other TMAs and combat sports, I don't.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 18, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Very sensible to be scared of knives to be honest, I wish more people were so they'd give then some respect and stop teaching this 'just kick it out of the hand' rot. There is an awful lot of bad knife defence being taught.


Yeah I agree with this completely.  After my son learned his dagger form and it's applications, it became really clear to me that the majority of the knife defense videos on youtube are just going to get someone cut.  There's one technique that literally peels the flesh off the arm like an apple but in bigger chunks and from what I can tell it appears to be something that would done when someone tries to seize the knife hand.  



stonewall1350 said:


> I don't have a lot of time free either.


Out of everything that you said, this is your biggest problem.  I don't know of any martial arts for self-defense that is a fast learning system.  Martial arts takes time.  Learning the Form or technique is actually fast.  Learning how to apply it in a real fight requires a deeper understanding of the technique, of yourself, and of various types of attacks that you are most likely to have to deal with.  The chances that you'll fight someone who knows the same martial art that you know is very slim, especially if you live in the U.S.

If you don't have a lot of time then definitely don't take a Chinese Martial art which will cover knife defense. 

Sapphire brings up some good points as well.  I always cared about Martial Arts from a self-defense perspective and when I went shopping around, I knew the martial art style had to be practical and not fancy and not used in a sport.  Sometimes the martial arts schools that boast about trophies for forms, and point sparring are the ones that you want to stay away from.  The ones that talk about continuous sparring and getting into the ring are the ones that focus more on applying the techniques in real life fight situations.


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## Sapphire (Aug 18, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you don't have a lot of time then definitely don't take a Chinese Martial art which will cover knife defense.
> 
> Sapphire brings up some good points as well.  I always cared about Martial Arts from a self-defense perspective and when I went shopping around, I knew the martial art style had to be practical and not fancy and not used in a sport.  Sometimes the martial arts schools that boast about trophies for forms, and point sparring are the ones that you want to stay away from.  The ones that talk about continuous sparring and getting into the ring are the ones that focus more on applying the techniques in real life fight situations.



Just remember that the difference between "ring" and "street" is the planning.  You plan for a ring fight and train a good, what, 3 hours a day for a solid 6, 9, 12 months, whatever, to get ready for a "ring" fight.  A street fight doesn't give you that luxury.  The average person trains 5 hours a week half assed for street fights when they could happen anywhere, not just in dark alley ways.  Someone gets pissed at you at work, someone gets too drunk at a party and starts flailing at everyone, a guy grabs you from behind while his friend tries to grope your girlfriend, anything.  Not having time to train is akin to not having time to face reality.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 18, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> The average person trains 5 hours a week half assed for street fights when they could happen anywhere, not just in dark alley ways. Someone gets pissed at you at work, someone gets too drunk at a party and starts flailing at everyone, a guy grabs you from behind while his friend tries to grope your girlfriend, anything. Not having time to train is akin to not having time to face reality.


This is so true.  The average person trains 5 hours a week or less, because not all martial arts students show up for every class or practices outside of class.  Then take into consideration how many days are dedicated to forms and how many days are dedicated to sparring / real-life self defense.  It's definitely not a quick process.

The worst thing about a knife is that it's a stealth weapon, meaning that the attacker can keep it hidden right up to the point before the actual attack.  If someone "prison shanks"  you with knife then none of the knife defenses are going to help you.  The knife defenses only help when you actually see the knife before it cuts you.  This is the danger of a knife attack





This is how our brain would most likely react to a vicious knife attack (0:35 Mark)





There's a video on youtube called "knife attacks myths" that shows actual stealth and rushed knife attacks that were caught on camera.  I didn't post the video here but you can check it out if you are interested in knowing what you are against.  

Here are 2 guys that I assume are trained to fight with a knife.  The only advantages that they have is 
1. That they see the knife before the attack
2. The knives aren't real
3. It's only weapons sparring.


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## Sapphire (Aug 18, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is so true.  The average person trains 5 hours a week or less, because not all martial arts students show up for every class or practices outside of class.  Then take into consideration how many days are dedicated to forms and how many days are dedicated to sparring / real-life self defense.  It's definitely not a quick process.



Yes.  Though you can speed it up by continuously thinking on the idea of situation awareness and studying body language, as well as getting into shape in various other ways.  Sprinting and dynamic core exercises like kettle bells for explosive movements.



JowGaWolf said:


> The worst thing about a knife is that it's a stealth weapon, meaning that the attacker can keep it hidden right up to the point before the actual attack.  If someone "prison shanks"  you with knife then none of the knife defenses are going to help you.  The knife defenses only help when you actually see the knife before it cuts you.  This is the danger of a knife attack



You see the only problem I really have with this is that it assumes that you're getting attacked by a wild and crazy knife wielder.  By no means am I saying this will never happen to someone who does a, b, and c to keep themselves safe, but there is in my opinion much more chance of getting jumped by someone who is more afraid of the knife than you are than there is of getting surprised prison shanked.  This is why situational awareness is the number one thing I insist people think about -- I even surprise my 20 y/o little sister from time to time just to keep her from walking with her eyes glued to her phone.



JowGaWolf said:


> Here are 2 guys that I assume are trained to fight with a knife.  The only advantages that they have is
> 1. That they see the knife before the attack
> 2. The knives aren't real
> 3. It's only weapons sparring.



Yeah watching people who know what they're doing with a knife is always interesting.  Though it seems that the less a person trains with a knife, the more likely they are to slash wildly, while someone who trains with a knife regularly is going to be more fond of precision stabs.  I don't regularly see much "defanging the snake" anymore.  Slash at the hand, then you don't necessarily need to stab them because they're unarmed.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 19, 2015)

Sapphire said:


> You see the only problem I really have with this is that it assumes that you're getting attacked by a wild and crazy knife wielder.


I always assume the worst case scenario.  I figure that if I'm prepared to mentally handle the worst case scenario, then I'll be able to focus on what needs to be done vs freezing up and trying to figure out what to do in the heat of chaos where everything is a blur.  I'm like that with everything and not just self-defense.  When I was a kid there was always some other kid that was being jumped afterschool, in the street, or in the locker room.  I had to grow up being sensitive to when someone is trying to size me up for something unpleasant or just sizing me up period to "dominate" in some kind of manner that may be violent or non-violent.
It's that you remind your sister that there are other things she should be paying attention to than the phone when walking.



Sapphire said:


> someone who trains with a knife regularly is going to be more fond of precision stabs.


The IDF guy did a precision slash to Airborne's wrist (1:16 mark) followed by a bad parry to the blade (cut fingers) that he did over and over.


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## crazydiamond (Aug 23, 2015)

Kali would be great system to try for Knife, Baton and some "dirty" fighting-found this near you with a google search. Part of my MMA training  includes Kali and I get plenty of knife and stick work with other things. Although the common advise from my instructors when someone has a knife.... "Run Away" unless there is no choice.

Florida FCS Kali
536 SW 2nd Ave
Gainesville, FL 32601


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## Chrisoro (Aug 24, 2015)

I would definately recommend Lee Morrison´s latest book, The Complete Book of Urban Combatives, for the OP. In this book, Lee gives you a complete self-protection game plan about everything to do from the moment you become aware of something potentially dangerous(and also includes such things as how to escape before anything happens, and de-escalation strategies), to the moment when something physical have come down and the dust settles. Most martial arts and combat sports focus only on the fighting aspect, ignoring a large part of what should constitute self protection, while still branding themselves as "Self Defense". 

Lee also includes a chapter on both knife defense and knife offence, based on a mix of western millitary combatives and fillipino arts. His knife defense principles is some of the best I have ever seen, and having trained with Lee in person, I can attest to the fact that he is able to do anything in his book against resistance in the gym. And so can most other people after some training, since these techniques is all gross motor with quite simple mechanics.


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## Taekwondoguy (Aug 25, 2015)

Advice is to try a class at your local schools and go from there.  Needs to feel right to join.


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