# SKK Combinations: Concepts



## 14 Kempo

We've discussed or are discussing aspects of the SKK system, forms application and principles along with combinations against varying attacks, but how about the concepts of the techniques. I believe that at least with the original combinations, the originator(s) were trying to teach us something. I am having trouble with some, trying to understand what that might be. I would like to hear from all you SKK types as to what you might think the concepts could be. 

Here we go, let's keep our minds open and see what we all can come up with!!

I'll start with one that we've discussed before, combination #6 ... 

*A linear kick can defeat a punch.* 

Yes, I believe it to be that simple and straight forward. A person from the front punches, it matters not if it is a jab, cross, hook, uppercut, etc., throw that kick with proper timing and he can't hit you. The kick can be anywhere from the shin up, with a varying degree of success. Against a jab, the kick would need to be lower for the fact that there is less time to deliver it with the speed of the punch.
A person attacking from behind could run into a back kick, still combination #6, just a different direction. However, it is a linear kick defeating a punch. Same goes for a person approaching from either side, linear side kick defeats a punch. Yes, it could be someone attempting to grab or push as well.


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## DavidCC

Moving the target of an attack out of the way - getting off the line of attack.  (first taught in #7)


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## RevIV

AHHHHHAHHHHHH -----  Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon ---  lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one....  with all that being said...  this is going to be a great thread.  and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops.  well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.


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## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.


 
LOL ... The previous coverage of #6 is exactly why I started with it, to get it out of the way. 

DavidCC brought up #7, thanks David, any thoughts?


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> Moving the target of an attack out of the way - getting off the line of attack. (first taught in #7)


 
I see it the same way, get off the line and deliver a linear kick. It doesn't matter what direction is taken to get off the line, just move and deliver a linear kick. Also can be seen as being used when you're too late to use #6 and need to either block (a variation of 6) or 'move off the line'.


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## marlon

SKK is the creation / personal take of GM Villari.  Yes, there are clear historical paths...and many unclear ones.  yet there is a distinctive identity to Villari SKK.  Leaving aside bad  instructors and bad business practices and looking at it as a system, what are the concepts of skk and how are they represented in the combinations? How does this change how the earlier combinations are done as opposed to the way they were originally done?  What are the differences in the combinations brought in or made up / created by GM Villari and the ones he learned from GM Cerio?  What do these differences say about SKK?

Respectfully,
Marlon
p.s. i am not 100% clear on the differences btwn concepts and priniciples in this context


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.


 
ah, master Dwire, how about the concept of eliminating weapons in #6?



Respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> AHHHHHAHHHHHH ----- Matt is going to be killing me and you to Marlon --- lets just cut and paste everything Matt and Marlon already wrote about combo #6 and then go to another one.... with all that being said... this is going to be a great thread. and 14 Kempo, im more busting on Matt and Marlon because at my last seminar Matt said he was going to bring up combo #6 once a week just to bust my chops. well i need to go start my first class.. a mere 100 degrees out.


 

Combination 6 can definitely be seen to explore the concept of cover your entry high while attacking low.

also a block is a strike and a strike is a block


also hidden limb destruction

also...!!!!

me likes you Jesse!!  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

marlon said:


> also a block is a strike and a strike is a block
> also hidden limb destruction


 
I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.

And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg:  ROFL

I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept?  I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`



> I am having trouble with some, trying to understand what that might be


 
What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!!  Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!.  See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK.  So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own.  But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc)  So why aren't you asking them??  Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information?  And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?

I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.

yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic.  This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.
> 
> And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL
> 
> I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.
> 
> yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?


 
Good points David.

At least out here in the West, we are far removed from the teachings of any of the aforementioned Masters and Grand Masters. Due to the size of the organizations here in the West, our lineage is watered down and alot of the original concepts and thoughts got thrown to the wayside. Heck, in one of the offshoots, I was told not to worry about history, cause they were all dead. Wonder why I left the organization. Well, with that type of comment, you can understand why some of us seek knowledge elsewhere.

I am now with an instructor who passes down knowledge freely, but even then I seek further knowledge, other thoughts, other points of view. I do not expect to get to the one and only concept of any technique on a forum, but having an open mind and reading other's input, lights that bulb so-to-speak. I am taught to think not just regurgitate movement.


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.
> 
> And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL
> 
> I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.
> 
> yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?


 

David, i was having a little fun with Jesse, there is another similar thread with quite a few posts and that may account for the low volume, somewhat; we initially teach #6 with a double block (#4 then #1 then kick and later drop the blocks).  Also, i think all of us have great insturctors who we learn from and come here mainly to discuss topicws and express our point of views and share knowledge and this is what the idea of this thread is about.  Lastly, in defence of the east coast crew, this thread was started by someone from San Diego, not the east coast...  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## 14 Kempo

Yes, I'm in San Diego. Yes, I asked a question. Yes, I am trained here and as stated prior, may lack some direct contact to Masters and Grand Masters of the SKK system, but it doesn't mean that SKK in Nebraska, Missouri, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, or anywhere else is any better or worse. This is what some refer to as "Close Minded" in my book. A forum where asking questions is wrong, hmmm, what's wrong with this picture.


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## DavidCC

I didn't mean to imply that it's wrong to be asking these questions... 

I'm all for gettign information wherever you can.  That's why I've done some BJJ and SL-4 for example.

But SKK is fairly new and the originators, for the most part, are still alive, even if you trace back to 3 different styles (NCK, KGS, Kaju).

If you look at some American kenpo reference amterial, there are long lists of "What this technique teaches".  Why isn't there a similar document for SKK?


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## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, I'm in San Diego. Yes, I asked a question. Yes, I am trained here and as stated prior, may lack some direct contact to Masters and Grand Masters of the SKK system, but it doesn't mean that SKK in Nebraska, Missouri, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, or anywhere else is any better or worse. This is what some refer to as "Close Minded" in my book. A forum where asking questions is wrong, hmmm, what's wrong with this picture.


 

i hope you did not take offence to my reference to David that a west coast person started the thread.  It was a friendly jab at David b/c he mentioned the east coast people ...nothing more.  i ask quesions all the tiem and love MT b/c we can freely ask things and have access to great people to share with.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:


But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.

After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind.  Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs.  Does anyone else do a tech like this?  fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems?  and what concepts do you want it to convey?


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## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:
> quote]
> 
> New England guy right here!!!
> 
> First some of the people you mentioned as masters are on this forum yet we rarely hear any other input then I agree with some of you.
> 
> Secondly I thought thats what we were doing here taking what we learned and bouncing it off other martial artists?  What one instructor may learn is different then another and there for passed down differently.
> 
> Thirdly, and this is the most unfortunate, I don't think the "secrets club" has been broken down yet.  Though people on this forum are doing alot to get that info out.  Matt's info page, these very threads, so on and so forth.
> 
> Lastly as for us East Coast guys being closest in proximaty to these gentlemen, in this day and age we are all as close as our keyboards.  Sometimes also geographic closeness can cause seeming rivalry or competition which may stop or slow down the sharing process.
> 
> David thank you for this and the prior post because it gives me a chance to say publicly something I have wanted to for some time now.  There will never (and in my opinion should never) be one organization that "runs" SKK, BUT that doesn't mean there can't be a network of black belts that freely work out with each other in order to share knowledge.  I know that I do not get to work out with peers any  where neer what I would like to or should do.
> 
> So if any of you East Coast guys would like to start to get together on a monthly basis possibly rotating schools for a work out I would certainly be game to host and travel for such occasions.
> 
> Back to the post.....as far as my instructor learned this concept from this head master isn't it more productive to work the material with a logical progression and find these concepts, principles, and applications for ourselves (well with a little help from a friend or instructor anyway)?


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## JTKenpo

Conceptually #3 and #6 are the same technique using different range and weapon.  #3 teaches to slip the jab in close range and use a punch low while #6 teaches to slip the jab at longer range and use a kick low.

The same can be said with #2 and #5 although different in their approach again this thread is about concept.  #2 uses short range while #5 adds the longer range kick.


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## DavidCC

JTKenpo said:


> Lastly as for us East Coast guys being closest in proximaty to these gentlemen, in this day and age we are all as close as our keyboards. Sometimes also geographic closeness can cause seeming rivalry or competition which may stop or slow down the sharing process.


 
I can't even get anyone in Villari's organization to answer a simple email other than "buy our DVD".  So my hope was that the direct transmission of these ideas would be possible, from teacher to student.

I can understand how the application of a 100 year old kata might be lost... but Sonny Gas and SGM Pesare are alive and well, there shoud be no reason that the stuff they invented be "lost" already.  I'm starting to believe it was never in there, at least not explicitly.  SKK is not transmitted verbally, it is taught kinetically.  Which is OK, it just makes it harder for us to trade information at a distance.





JTKenpo said:


> David thank you for this and the prior post because it gives me a chance to say publicly something I have wanted to for some time now. There will never (and in my opinion should never) be one organization that "runs" SKK, BUT that doesn't mean there can't be a network of black belts that freely work out with each other in order to share knowledge. I know that I do not get to work out with peers any where neer what I would like to or should do.
> 
> So if any of you East Coast guys would like to start to get together on a monthly basis possibly rotating schools for a work out I would certainly be game to host and travel for such occasions.


 
sounds like a good idea, lucky guys...
www.budocamponline.com  think about it.... 



JTKenpo said:


> Back to the post.....as far as my instructor learned this concept from this head master isn't it more productive to work the material with a logical progression and find these concepts, principles, and applications for ourselves (well with a little help from a friend or instructor anyway)?


I'm not sure what the optimal balance is.  yes some degree of discovery is valuable and necessary; but spend any amount of time at KenpoTalk and it becomes clear that you can go too far in the opposite direction too...


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:
> 
> 
> But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.
> 
> After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?


 
We do a similar technique, it is simply called a rear shoulder grab. We teach this technique at yellow belt. Slight differences, we  loosen them up with a back kick to the shin, or stomp to the foot. We then step back with the other foot, wrapping over the arms and deliver a palm strike to the facial area.


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> i hope you did not take offence to my reference to David that a west coast person started the thread. It was a friendly jab at David b/c he mentioned the east coast people ...nothing more. i ask quesions all the tiem and love MT b/c we can freely ask things and have access to great people to share with.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
No, not at all, just trying to make a point.


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## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar.  I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors.  Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape.  The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
> Jesse


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> JTKenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar. I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors. Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape. The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
> Jesse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When Jesse?  i would love to make it.  July 23rd and Aug.6 th are the birthdays of my children so those week ends are out, but otherwise i will do everything to make it...if i am invited...technically i am sort of an east coast school .....
> 
> marlon
Click to expand...


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## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.
> 
> And nobody needs to be talking about their "hidden limbs", this is a clean forum.:btg: ROFL
> 
> I mean, I know you can insert anything you want into any technique, but does that mean that the specific technique teaches that particular concept? I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`
> 
> 
> 
> What I don't understand is why some of you New England guys don't know some of this stuff!! Take no offense please - let me explain - I am not cirticizong your efforts or training!. See, I'm stuck out here in Nebraska under a guy who most of you would consider a pariah or worse, who has no up-line in SKK. So it is reasonable that WE might have to be discovering some of these things on our own. But you guys have solid lineages to Villari, Cerio, Pesare (Nohelty, Bryant, Ingargiola, Cunningham, Corrigan, etc) So why aren't you asking them?? Assuming that the depth of knoweldge we are trying to bring to light in a thread like this EVEN EXISTS wouldn't these guys have that information? And if they have it, why isn't it getting passed down to you?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder if we aren't grasping at shadows here.
> 
> yeah we can look at the techniques and say "I learned this from it" but that in no way implies that Sonny Gas or Fred Villari or anyone in between or since STARTED WITH that idea and created the technique to showcase it - which is, I think, an underlying assumption in this topic. This might be why there are less than 10 posts here and we basically have 2-3 concepts listed so far after 2 days of thinking about it, maybe?


 
I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here.  They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK.  To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight.  In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed.  I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations.  I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based.  but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system.  For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation.  When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it.  Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach.  Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.


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## RevIV

marlon said:


> RevIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> When Jesse? i would love to make it. July 23rd and Aug.6 th are the birthdays of my children so those week ends are out, but otherwise i will do everything to make it...if i am invited...technically i am sort of an east coast school .....
> 
> marlon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> technically you are my friend and always welcome in any of my crazy ventures.
Click to expand...


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## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> JTKenpo said:
> 
> 
> 
> We were just talking about this exact idea at my seminar. I know a few people who would offer up there school for a monthly workout-rotating to particitpating instructors. Myself, Jeff(jdokan) Chris Hatch -in cape cod so lets do that one in the summer and have a good time after the workout in the cape. The only thing we talked about was we would only go to peoples schools who showed up at other schools for the workout.
> Jesse
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds great and I absolutely understand about only attending schools that participate at other schools.  I'll PM you.
Click to expand...


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## DavidCC

RevIV said:


> I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here. They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK. To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight. In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed. I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations. I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based. but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system. For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation. When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
> Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.


 
Thanks for reassuring me that I am not crazy LOL.  I think I hear a "mission statement" in that second paragraph 

Speaking of Kyusho, my teacher, Shawn Steiner, is certified instructor with Kyusho International (http://www.kyusho.com/instructors.htm).  He is wrapping up production of a "Kyusho and Kempo" DVD (hopefully he has a better title than that haha) which teaches the application of Kyusho using Shaolin Kempo techniques.  Video editing will be finished this week.


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## Hand Sword

Well, coming in late, I would agree with David CC. I brought up this same point many times in the past with many people. I find it fascinating (truly) what people find or come up with when disecting the material of SKK. The problem is that since everything translates and could be found, a mistake of assuming "this was meant to be" could be made. I mean, if many were describing this and that is in this technique and a founder was then asked about it, would he simply say "I was just avoiding a punch and hitting back, but, it's great to hear what you found-keep studying!"

Another problem could be that when these systems were "made" there was only so much available to be learned by the "founders." The focus was "they throw a punch--you do this!" "They throw a kick--you do that!" Some ran with that simplicity and made the money via an uneducated public just wanting to learn defense. Few went off and really studied. I think more are really studying now more than then. The "founders" themselves kept growing, evolving, and learning through the years and might have a good answer to the questions now.

As for my input, I once heard Mr. Villari and others of his first BB's simply explain #6 as a kick beats a punch due to length. #7 was avoid and counter attack with your longest weapon to maintain distance.

Simple as that.

You would also hear "just throw up a block and hit back" and "just keep moving forward" quoted a bit. All of the "scientific stuff" was preached by EPAKers back then. The SKK was just simple.


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## KenG

im sure alot of epak principles could be found in the skk techniques... but as far as pincipals in skk maybe they just never were... but that dosent mean you cant lern them from other styles and apply them where they work... epak is very principal based and the system is taught in such a way to teach different things in different tech's/forms/sets.. but when/if i hear something that applies and it is eaiser to remember or i just like it better or whatever i just take a note and use it.. i love to borrow from other systems..


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## Hand Sword

I agree! The science applies to all of the systems as we all do the same stuff basically. I also agree about the principles "not being there" as was taught. It was always said just do this and that for this and that. It was simple brutality. Pontificating, thinking, describing how and why never came up (until recent years) except for the obvious as "to get distance for a good kick to the gut." Fighting was always said to just happen too fast and was too chaotic. You just had to do it. Block/evade, hit back, take down and finish.


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> I like what you wrote here and i have trained with a lot of the masters you have stated here. They are all very knowledgable in SKK and other arts - but i think you hit the nail on the head with the grasping at shadows statement in the SKK. To me there has always been a lot of branches in the kempo world. The educated one putting words and principles to their movements in training and then the other one who were more street mentality and they would train to hit hard, fast and first/ dont think just react. we would train our body 1000's of times to move on instinct in a real situation and would train hard take take the hits back in a fight. In the end our original goal was to survive the fight not wonder why his body did not move the way it was supposed. I now have more resources and friends who can help me answer these questions you asked but this sort of dialouge put with our techniques will lead to many interesting conversations. I was told there are princible based kempo and tech. based. but they both meet up eventually in the end no matter the system. For the past few years i have ventured to educate myself in the terms and thoughts of other systems like Parker, Kosho, Kyusho and i start to like the things i am learning up until my emotional/animal side rears its head due to past experiences or emotions of the situation. When that happens it all goes out the window and I go back to my roots which is not on the educated teminology base but the hurt the person real bad before they hurt you.
> Sorry for the rant - I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.


 

you made some excellent distinctions and points here Jesse.  thanks


----------



## marlon

KenG said:


> im sure alot of epak principles could be found in the skk techniques... but as far as pincipals in skk maybe they just never were... but that dosent mean you cant lern them from other styles and apply them where they work... epak is very principal based and the system is taught in such a way to teach different things in different tech's/forms/sets.. but when/if i hear something that applies and it is eaiser to remember or i just like it better or whatever i just take a note and use it.. i love to borrow from other systems..


 
i love to borrow frfom other systems as well.  But there is a flavour and "prinicples" or ap[proacjh that skk takes that has disctinctiveness that merits elucidation.  I think these types of discussions and the work outs can help us build our own fuctional principles.  It may be difficult ,b/c as you say most likely GM Villari had few concepts that work out into the techniques but certainly not an exhaustive set and perhaps due to the diversity of teaching and borrowing and marketing and competition...there may be conflicting  concepts insinuated into our system.  Not to mention that there are so many masters in the lineage of the Chow based systems each having a distinctive style and here we are learning from all of them and then attempting to remodel them into our skk.  this is a great opportunity and challenge to this group to truly establish our skk in a manner that could only benefit us and everyone...of course the biggest challenge may be forgeting egos and  focusing on the kempo.  I wish us the best.  and thanks SK101 and Kempo 14 for bringing this thread and Jesse for leading it in this direction

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> Well, coming in late, I would agree with David CC. I brought up this same point many times in the past with many people. I find it fascinating (truly) what people find or come up with when disecting the material of SKK. The problem is that since everything translates and could be found, a mistake of assuming "this was meant to be" could be made. I mean, if many were describing this and that is in this technique and a founder was then asked about it, would he simply say "I was just avoiding a punch and hitting back, but, it's great to hear what you found-keep studying!"
> 
> Another problem could be that when these systems were "made" there was only so much available to be learned by the "founders." The focus was "they throw a punch--you do this!" "They throw a kick--you do that!" Some ran with that simplicity and made the money via an uneducated public just wanting to learn defense. Few went off and really studied. I think more are really studying now more than then. The "founders" themselves kept growing, evolving, and learning through the years and might have a good answer to the questions now.
> 
> As for my input, I once heard Mr. Villari and others of his first BB's simply explain #6 as a kick beats a punch due to length. #7 was avoid and counter attack with your longest weapon to maintain distance.
> 
> Simple as that.
> 
> You would also hear "just throw up a block and hit back" and "just keep moving forward" quoted a bit. All of the "scientific stuff" was preached by EPAKers back then. The SKK was just simple.


 
somewhere btwn the brutality and "scientific " stuff is training.  not trainign to be the strongest and the fastest b/c that will not endure. What we are seeking is training for excellence based on being in an inferior situation, be that out numbered, injured, older, slower, weaker, is it not?  Yet in all that to allow our kempo to trump all those disadvantages.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## DavidCC

I think it is possible to document the most important things to be learned from any technique, and once we have a string list of those things to abstract that into a set of principles that might encompass the "flavor" of SKK.

The problem will be that these principles might conflict with the facts of anatomy physiology and kinesthesiology.  What then?  For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker.  So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition?  The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.


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## Jdokan

DavidCC said:


> So wherre are all our NE guys today? hopefully they are out tracking down FV and GP to get the answers we need !!! :lfao:
> 
> 
> But anyway, enough of my distracitng topic, let's get back to the OP topic.
> 
> After we teach #6 and #7, we teach something we call "Grab #6" - attack is a 2 hand shoulder grab from behind. Step back, wrap over the arms with right - locking out attacker's arms, punch to floating ribs. Does anyone else do a tech like this? fi not then what is the 3rd tech taught in your systems? and what concepts do you want it to convey?


  I have that as a rear choke/shoulder grab....I have additional strikes then a take down and pound him into dust...but itherwise the same technique....


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## DavidCC

Jdokan said:


> I have that as a rear choke/shoulder grab....I have additional strikes then a take down and pound him into dust...but itherwise the same technique....


 
Interesting side-bar...

I was once told it is impossible to choke from behind like this with the hands.  I was skeptical but IT'S TRUE.  Can you make someone very uncomfortable? yes.  Can you actually choke them? No.  Try it!


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## marlon

DavidCC said:


> I think it is possible to document the most important things to be learned from any technique, and once we have a string list of those things to abstract that into a set of principles that might encompass the "flavor" of SKK.
> 
> The problem will be that these principles might conflict with the facts of anatomy physiology and kinesthesiology. What then? For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker. So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition? The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.


 
to ignore facts in favour of tradition would not be logical nor practical.

marlon


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## Hand Sword

marlon said:


> somewhere btwn the brutality and "scientific " stuff is training. not trainign to be the strongest and the fastest b/c that will not endure. What we are seeking is training for excellence based on being in an inferior situation, be that out numbered, injured, older, slower, weaker, is it not? Yet in all that to allow our kempo to trump all those disadvantages.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 

I agree with your post and thinking. I merely stated how it was back then when I trained and was around some 1st BB's of Mr. Villari, and heard him on occassion. I don't see where I stated anything about training purposes that you are arguing against. The "scientific stuff" is meant to describe how EPAKers go about decribing their movements and material. (god bless them!) From my experiences with the above people in SKK, that way was never present. It was simply block/evade and hit back. Any principles, were much simpler. That was why I was agreeing with those that said the concepts "weren't present" in SKK as taught in my experiences. The concepts are present, however,  in the idea that the same science applies to all arts and movements, as it does.


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## Jdokan

DavidCC said:


> Interesting side-bar...
> 
> I was once told it is impossible to choke from behind like this with the hands. I was skeptical but IT'S TRUE. Can you make someone very uncomfortable? yes. Can you actually choke them? No. Try it!


 
The fingertips CAN apply carotid (sp?) artery pressure that will have you go to sleep...Additionally, you can do severe damage to the throat/larinyx...Try it!


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## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> I agree with your post and thinking. I merely stated how it was back then when I trained and was around some 1st BB's of Mr. Villari, and heard him on occassion. I don't see where I stated anything about training purposes that you are arguing against. The "scientific stuff" is meant to describe how EPAKers go about decribing their movements and material. (god bless them!) From my experiences with the above people in SKK, that way was never present. It was simply block/evade and hit back. Any principles, were much simpler. That was why I was agreeing with those that said the concepts "weren't present" in SKK as taught in my experiences. The concepts are present, however, in the idea that the same science applies to all arts and movements, as it does.


 
Hi David, my comments about the focus of training is just my own thinking and not a rtesponse to anything you said.  I apologize that it was not clearer.  I also love the way the AK people have thier concepts and style so clearly defined, however, i notice some are more into the vocabulary than the training.  By this i mean they overuse the jargon of AK to the point where it can become an impediment to training, unlike someone such as Doc who, when using the language of AK uses it to clarify what is happening from a place of understanding and not a quick "i know this!!" type answer.  Of course we know that some skk people have the opposite difficulty.  Hopefully we can find a good balance.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Hand Sword

David?????

LOL! Someone had a rough Saturday night and is in desperate need of coffee or more sleep.


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## marlon

Hand Sword said:


> David?????
> 
> LOL! Someone had a rough Saturday night and is in desperate need of coffee or more sleep.


 

oops!!  scuzzii senior!!!  more sleep i think



respectfully,
Marlon


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## MeatWad2

Jdokan said:


> The fingertips CAN apply carotid (sp?) artery pressure that will have you go to sleep...Additionally, you can do severe damage to the throat/larinyx...Try it!



Although you're right here, remember that a great deal of people will automatically react to someone putting their hand on them from behind.  I have the same technique for the same scenario that you have, which is why it will work.  However, for a grab on both shoulders, I don't see it working as well.  Seems there would be too much space inbetween the arms for the technique to work.  Just my .02


----------



## Jdokan

MeatWad2 said:


> Although you're right here, remember that a great deal of people will automatically react to someone putting their hand on them from behind. I have the same technique for the same scenario that you have, which is why it will work. However, for a grab on both shoulders, I don't see it working as well. Seems there would be too much space inbetween the arms for the technique to work. Just my .02


 
I agree...I have a similar technique as listed for the shoulders grab....Starts out pretty much the same but as you turn strike with the outside edge of the wing to the head...continue to circle trapping a single arm (lower by the wrist) then using the other arm (either #3 or 4 block depending which way you stepped back) break the arm...taking that breaking arm and strike the throat, bending the opponenet over backwards, rising knee to the back, followed by the other arm striking the chest with a hammerfist-driving them to the ground.....
Simple but effective..


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## DavidCC

Jdokan said:


> The fingertips CAN apply carotid (sp?) artery pressure that will have you go to sleep...


 
technically, that's a strangle, and the 3 people I had try it couldn't get consistent enough pressure to put me out.



Jdokan said:


> Additionally, you can do severe damage to the throat/larinyx...Try it!


it feels like it, like I said it's very uncomfortable, but I don't believe you can really damage it. I had my partners squeeze pretty hard.... I'm not sure they could have squeezed any harder.


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## DavidCC

MeatWad2 said:


> Although you're right here, remember that a great deal of people will automatically react to someone putting their hand on them from behind. I have the same technique for the same scenario that you have, which is why it will work. However, for a grab on both shoulders, I don't see it working as well. Seems there would be too much space inbetween the arms for the technique to work. Just my .02


 
if you step back deep enough, hip to belly, both arms lock up nicely. if you don't get deep enough, you wrap below the elbows, not so good.


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> technically, that's a strangle, and the 3 people I had try it couldn't get consistent enough pressure to put me out.
> 
> 
> it feels like it, like I said it's very uncomfortable, but I don't believe you can really damage it. I had my partners squeeze pretty hard.... I'm not sure they could have squeezed any harder.


 
I don't know David, next time you're in SoCal, stop on by, I'd like to try to choke you, just to see if you're correct. I can't find anybody around here that will voluteer to have me try  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 Are you willing to sign a release, just in case?


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## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> I don't know David, next time you're in SoCal, stop on by, I'd like to try to choke you, just to see if you're correct. I can't find anybody around here that will voluteer to have me try
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Are you willing to sign a release, just in case?


 
it is much easier to find chokers than chokees


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## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> it is much easier to find chokers than chokees


 
No kidding ... :shrug:


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## RevIV

Jdokan said:


> I agree...I have a similar technique as listed for the shoulders grab....Starts out pretty much the same but as you turn strike with the outside edge of the wing to the head...continue to circle trapping a single arm (lower by the wrist) then using the other arm (either #3 or 4 block depending which way you stepped back) break the arm...taking that breaking arm and strike the throat, bending the opponenet over backwards, rising knee to the back, followed by the other arm striking the chest with a hammerfist-driving them to the ground.....
> Simple but effective..


 
I have a siliar tech. too.  Lots of good stuff in there....


----------



## Jdokan

DavidCC said:


> technically, that's a strangle, and the 3 people I had try it couldn't get consistent enough pressure to put me out.
> I don't know about the "technically" part...IMO anytime somebody has their hands on my throat it's a choke...whether they're restricting my airway or the bloodflow to the brain the end result is the same....I'm not very happy...I can't validate the 3 people...maybe they aren't mean enough, maybe they were being nice to you...who knows but because you've had 3 people try and not be successful doesn't change the merit of a blood choke....
> 
> it feels like it, like I said it's very uncomfortable, but I don't believe you can really damage it. I had my partners squeeze pretty hard.... I'm not sure they could have squeezed any harder.


Like the song says:" please come to Boston..."  Put your throat in my hands...you'll feel more than uncomfortable....Here again as with my previous statement...maybe the wrong people....The throat is an area that you can't "practice on"...there has to be an acceptable understanding of potential damage to soft tissues.....I have had a persons hands on my throat and it was more than uncomfortable, I thought my time had come....When I think if uncomfortable I think of my *** after a 3->4 hour on my bike.....not somebody's hands around my neck....IMO of course....


----------



## kidswarrior

I have to agree with those who posit that two hands on the throat from behind is very bad news for the *chokee*. I, too, would classify it as far closer to dangerous than uncomfortable. At the very least, one could slam the chokee's head to the ground, where any manner of techs (as full weight and gravity behind a forearm; or, just am old-fashioned stomp) could be used to crush the cartilages of the larynx.


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## marlon

since Matt is holding up his  threat i thought i would bring up combination #6:  The double block i learned with this combo as a beginner that is usually dropped later was once described to me as a fundemental characteristic of kempo along with hammer strikes.  The double block also called a sun and moon block is not really found in many combinations.  In the pinans yes but they are not distictive to kempo, not so much in the kata's either.  So, although a very distinguished kempo master said this and to be sure in his Hawaiian kempo it is much more prevalent i do not see it much in the forms and combinations of kempo.  Do others have it as an essential part of kempo...? is it prevelant in kajukenbo? Is it taught outside of the combinations and forms regularly?  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> since Matt is holding up his threat i thought i would bring up combination #6: The double block i learned with this combo as a beginner that is usually dropped later was once described to me as a fundemental characteristic of kempo along with hammer strikes. The double block also called a sun and moon block is not really found in many combinations. In the pinans yes but they are not distictive to kempo, not so much in the kata's either. So, although a very distinguished kempo master said this and to be sure in his Hawaiian kempo it is much more prevalent i do not see it much in the forms and combinations of kempo. Do others have it as an essential part of kempo...? is it prevelant in kajukenbo? Is it taught outside of the combinations and forms regularly?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Sorry Marlin, I think it is that I haven't heard your terminology. Can you explain the block further. We use cross blocks, fan blocks, fartress blocks ... many blocks that could be considered double blocks. Like I said, it just may be a terminology thing.


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## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Sorry Marlin, I think it is that I haven't heard your terminology. Can you explain the block further. We use cross blocks, fan blocks, fartress blocks ... many blocks that could be considered double blocks. Like I said, it just may be a terminology thing.


 
fartess!!!  that's hilarious!!!
the double block is also called a windmill block.  combo six is first taught with  block 4 then block 1...i think it is like the fan block but closed fisted instead of open hand

respectfully,
Marlon


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## 14 Kempo

marlon said:


> fartess!!! that's hilarious!!!
> the double block is also called a windmill block. combo six is first taught with block 4 then block 1...i think it is like the fan block but closed fisted instead of open hand
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Yeah, that is funny ... LOL ... it was a typo that worked out well.

Iron-fortress blocking sounds somewhat similar, however, what you mention sounds like what some call 'cross-blocking'


----------



## Matt

marlon said:


> since Matt is holding up his  threat i thought i would bring up combination #6:  The double block i learned with this combo as a beginner that is usually dropped later was once described to me as a fundemental characteristic of kempo along with hammer strikes.  The double block also called a sun and moon block is not really found in many combinations.  In the pinans yes but they are not distictive to kempo, not so much in the kata's either.  So, although a very distinguished kempo master said this and to be sure in his Hawaiian kempo it is much more prevalent i do not see it much in the forms and combinations of kempo.  Do others have it as an essential part of kempo...? is it prevelant in kajukenbo? Is it taught outside of the combinations and forms regularly?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Nick Cerio made extensive use of the double parry, but no, it doesn't show up that much in the combinations. I do use it quite a bit due to Prof. Kimo, but that's just me. Thanks for keeping the combination #6 presence going. 

Matt


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## RevIV

Matt said:


> Nick Cerio made extensive use of the double parry, but no, it doesn't show up that much in the combinations. I do use it quite a bit due to Prof. Kimo, but that's just me. Thanks for keeping the combination #6 presence going.
> 
> Matt


 
ahhh,  i use to have this double block in Combo #7 - but it turned into the dragon block (windmill with grab)  I have it in quite a few of my Kempo Punch techniques.
Jesse


----------



## marlon

i also have it in many of the kempo / animal techniques but not in the combinations, which i found curious as it was taught to me as something central to kempo.

marlon


----------



## marlon

Matt said:


> Nick Cerio made extensive use of the double parry, but no, it doesn't show up that much in the combinations. I do use it quite a bit due to Prof. Kimo, but that's just me. Thanks for keeping the combination #6 presence going.
> 
> Matt


 

Well some one had to... 

do you see this double movement as a concept of kempo or just another block?

marlon


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## marlon

I think it is up to our generation to make SKK the way we want it. Bringing in the educated concepts and ideas are great but so are some of the techniques we teach. Hit them low they bend/ hit them high they fall back/ take out there base they fall down -- follow up each with brutality.[/quote]


i love this post Jesse

marlon


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## marlon

3, 2, 10, 11,17, 19, 20, 22...all have an important sk concept.  hit them with your body then hit them with the ground.  As a basically stand up art we sure like to hit people while they are down and most of the time we do not go to the ground with them. 

respectfully,
marlon


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## RevIV

marlon said:


> i also have it in many of the kempo / animal techniques but not in the combinations, which i found curious as it was taught to me as something central to kempo.
> 
> marlon


 
Just a thought to ponder..  a lot of the Combo's are outward blocks and a lot of the kempo's are inward blocks
Combo's came first (said to be based off of boxing strikes,  hooks and overhands)
Kempo's second -  after the initiation of the step through straight punch..  
hmmmmmmmm
All of my combo's that have the outward block we now attack with the hook or overhand.


----------



## DavidCC

kidswarrior said:


> I have to agree with those who posit that two hands on the throat from behind is very bad news for the *chokee*. I, too, would classify it as far closer to dangerous than uncomfortable. At the very least, one could slam the chokee's head to the ground, where any manner of techs (as full weight and gravity behind a forearm; or, just am old-fashioned stomp) could be used to crush the cartilages of the larynx.


 

I was writing only about the specific ability to close off the windpipe.  Slamming the head to the ground is a whole different matter 

or worse maybe, grinding the fingers into stomach 8 & 9, you'll wish for unconcisouness.

Hwo many people disagreeing with me actually has someone's hands on your throat this last week?  maybe my neck is just fat LOL


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> I was writing only about the specific ability to close off the windpipe. Slamming the head to the ground is a whole different matter
> 
> or worse maybe, grinding the fingers into stomach 8 & 9, you'll wish for unconcisouness.
> 
> Hwo many people disagreeing with me actually has someone's hands on your throat this last week? maybe my neck is just fat LOL


 
I do not think i have disagreed with you but for sake of arguement i will.  I have had my hands on someones neck this week and vice versa.  It hurt, i gasped, and my entire neck was swollen by the time we were done with the training.  It is a collapsing grab, but i truly am not sure if i wouldve lost consciousness-- Jdokan - when we get together you have permission to choke me out --  "out" is only a figure of speach though..


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> Just a thought to ponder.. a lot of the Combo's our outward blocks and a lot of the kempo's are inward blocks
> Combo's came first (said to be based off of boxing strikes, hooks and overhands)
> Kempo's second - after the initiation of the step through straight punch..
> hmmmmmmmm
> All of my combo's that have the outward block we now attack with the hook or overhand.


 
Let's list the first 26, as I know them ... 

Outward (13): 1, 8, 9, 10, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26
Inward (6): 2, 3, 5, 11, 13, 16
Upward (2): 4, 15
Downward (2): 24, 25 
No Block (3): 6, 7, 12 

Mostly outward blocks, but balanced between outward and others. Most kempo techniques are variations/modifications of combinations. 

Here's something else to think about, of the 13 outward blocks listed above, 12 are moving to the inside, 1 to the outside. Of the inward blocks, 2 are moving to the inside, 4 are moving to the outside.


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I was writing only about the specific ability to close off the windpipe. Slamming the head to the ground is a whole different matter
> 
> or worse maybe, grinding the fingers into stomach 8 & 9, you'll wish for unconcisouness.
> 
> Hwo many people disagreeing with me actually has someone's hands on your throat this last week? maybe my neck is just fat LOL


 
Maybe not, I don't know, haven't tried it. I just have to think that I would have enough grip strenth to cause some serious damage. Are we talking about simply squeezing flat fingered, or can we as humans use our fingers and opposable thumbs to squeeze and crush?


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> Let's list the first 26, as I know them ...
> 
> Outward (13): 1, 8, 9, 10, 14, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26
> Inward (6): 2, 3, 5, 11, 13, 16
> Upward (2): 4, 15
> Downward (2): 24, 25
> No Block (3): 6, 7, 12
> 
> The only thing I would say on this,  combo's 2 and 5 are on the inside of the strike with those inward blocks which brings to the the case of an overhand/hook at least for #2.


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Maybe not, I don't know, haven't tried it. I just have to think that I would have enough grip strenth to cause some serious damage. Are we talking about simply squeezing flat fingered, or can we as humans use our fingers and opposable thumbs to squeeze and crush?


 
I'm not sure what yo umean by flat-fingered, just what you would think if you told someone "grab my neck form behind and squeeze".  if their hands are big relative to your neck they cna get their fingers on your trach and makeit hurt.  Can it be damaged?  Well I've never taken it that far but I've been told, no, it cannot.  Mine isn't damaged yet, and I had mroe than a few people try it out lately.  I've been in much worse guillotine chokes, where I had to tap IMMEDIATELY.

Now, digging the fingers (claws) into nervs on the sides of the trachea is really much much more painful.

anyway,I forget why this even came up LOL, back to the regularly scheduled topic


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> Just a thought to ponder.. a lot of the Combo's are outward blocks and a lot of the kempo's are inward blocks
> Combo's came first (said to be based off of boxing strikes, hooks and overhands)
> Kempo's second - after the initiation of the step through straight punch..
> hmmmmmmmm
> All of my combo's that have the outward block we now attack with the hook or overhand.


 

against a right hook use your combo's that block inwards (that is moving to the outside of the attacker  like combo #6 for example!!..   ), lefty and the opposite of course.  it often works well

marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> against a right hook use your combo's that block inwards (that is moving to the outside of the attacker like combo #6 for example!!..  ), lefty and the opposite of course. it often works well
> 
> marlon


 
I attack combo #6 straight on.  I hear what your saying but working a right hook with an inward block is just not meshing well with my brain.  First a good inward block happens above the elbow and if they are hooking the strike it is getting a little to close to my comfort zone if you ask me.


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> The only thing I would say on this, combo's 2 and 5 are on the inside of the strike with those inward blocks which brings to the the case of an overhand/hook at least for #2.


 
Agreed ... and #5, as well, at least in its original form, works best against a hook, using the x-block.


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> Agreed ... and #5, as well, at least in its original form, works best against a hook, using the x-block.


 
yes, yes..


----------



## RevIV

oh yeah,,, I am a brown belt now... whoohooo


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> I attack combo #6 straight on. I hear what your saying but working a right hook with an inward block is just not meshing well with my brain. First a good inward block happens above the elbow and if they are hooking the strike it is getting a little to close to my comfort zone if you ask me.


 

hmmm i usually teach blocking as inside wrist outside elbow.  we have some interesting differences...

marlon


----------



## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> I do not think i have disagreed with you but for sake of arguement i will. I have had my hands on someones neck this week and vice versa. It hurt, i gasped, and my entire neck was swollen by the time we were done with the training. It is a collapsing grab, but i truly am not sure if i wouldve lost consciousness-- Jdokan - when we get together you have permission to choke me out -- "out" is only a figure of speach though..


 
Any word on the "get together"?


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> Maybe not, I don't know, haven't tried it. I just have to think that I would have enough grip strenth to cause some serious damage. Are we talking about simply squeezing flat fingered, or *can we as humans use our fingers and opposable thumbs to squeeze and crush?[/*quote]
> 
> 
> NOW THAT"S WHAT I"M TALKING ABOUT.........gotta love this guy......


----------



## DavidCC

marlon said:


> against a right hook use your combo's that block inwards (that is moving to the outside of the attacker like combo #6 for example!!..  ), lefty and the opposite of course. it often works well
> 
> marlon


 
I think the inward / outward is not as relevant as where you move to when considering the path of the punch.

that is, it is easier to move inside a hooking or roundhouse, easier to move outside a straight punch.

once you have that, then it is no big deal to do either block - from inside a right roundhouse I can block inward with my right or outward with my left; from outside a right cross I can block inward w/left or outward w/right.


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> hmmm i usually teach blocking as inside wrist outside elbow. we have some interesting differences...
> 
> marlon


 
I think we are talking about the same thing just not meshing.  A block to the outside of the arm is elbow up and inside the arm is elbow down.


----------



## RevIV

JTKenpo said:


> Any word on the "get together"?


 
Yeah, the baby is 3 weeks old today and besides that and making sure the school stays afloat in the summer i have not even thought about it.  But,,, a quick convo with matt and we thought the first should be down in the cape at Master Hatch's school.. he does not know that yet,, but i know he will be excited if we do.


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> I think we are talking about the same thing just not meshing. A block to the outside of the arm is elbow up and inside the arm is elbow down.


 

ah.  i misunderstood your original post then...my apologies, Jesse.
Meeting at master Hatches dojo sounds great,.  It would be good to see him again also and to get some hands and feet on training with all of you!



marlon


----------



## RevIV

marlon said:


> ah. i misunderstood your original post then...my apologies, Jesse.
> any idea for the timing of the get together?
> 
> marlon


 
Umm, sure... Later on.. ha, no i have no idea.  sometime in aug. would be best for me.


----------



## Jdokan

Are we thinking once a month type thing?  I'm out 4-5 nights a week now...Every Friday could land me back on the couch....HMMMMMMMM


----------



## marlon

Jdokan said:


> Are we thinking once a month type thing? I'm out 4-5 nights a week now...Every Friday could land me back on the couch....HMMMMMMMM


 

welllll, i am in Canada with a wife, children and a day job as well as students to teach soooo i could only make ...well less than what you mentioned  

marlon


----------



## Jdokan

marlon said:


> welllll, i am in Canada with a wife, children and a day job as well as students to teach soooo i could only make ...well less than what you mentioned
> 
> marlon


Come on now.....we hear Canada has an endless fuel supply....you should be able to drive down once a week (LOL)...

I'm in the same boat (though alot closer)...trying to juggle/balance everything is getting tougher as I get older...maybe we could videotape and post someplace for you... meetings once a month I think would be good...I don't know what the general consensus is...???


----------



## 14 Kempo

Well, I'm not even in the area, so I'm out, but I wish I could even get someone in my area to respond to a thread ... LOL ... seems that people out here on the left coast won't even talk.

My two cents would be, once a week would be great, once a month would be good, but even if it is once per quarter, or twice a year ... it would all be fantastic!


----------



## DavidCC

Nebraska is a great central location for an annual event.

for example www.budocamponline.com

:angel:


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> Well, I'm not even in the area, so I'm out, but I wish I could even get someone in my area to respond to a thread ... LOL ... seems that people out here on the left coast won't even talk.
> 
> My two cents would be, once a week would be great, once a month would be good, but even if it is once per quarter, or twice a year ... it would all be fantastic!


 
I hope this comes out right so take this as a non slam.  The west coast people are a little behind in the feuding stage for our style then the east coast.  People went to the West Coast because of all the hatred for eachother - backstabbing and raw business deals out here in the East.  So you are going through the middle stage in my opinion where people are trying to establish themselves apart from their previous groups and figure where they are going.  Out here in the east most of us are 3rd and 4th generation seperated from the Villari's and USSD.  Think of it, Cerio and Pesare did not speak for some time (a long time)  Prof. Cerio and Villari did not speak on the leave, Mattera and Villari same thing.  The difference is this happened 30 years ago out here (villari/cerio split).
Jesse


----------



## RevIV

jdwire4326@aol.com   that is my personal email,  I would be happy to start putting together a roster of who wants to do this.  I think once a month is more than enough.  I am not excluding the people in the midwest and west coast id be happy to keep you guys in the loop just for fun so feel to get on the email list.  Right now i am putting together a schedule once a month for my combat jujitsu course through Soke Micheal DePasquale Jr.  So i need to work around that too.
things to consider -
Structure of the days workout - locations to go -- possible 3rd friday of the month or are Sundays better?  and, who is in.. I have 2 friends in the area who own schools and would like to get in on this but they are not computer savvy,  This could grow into something sweet --- and best of all... work out partners.
Jesse


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> I hope this comes out right so take this as a non slam. The west coast people are a little behind in the feuding stage for our style then the east coast. People went to the West Coast because of all the hatred for eachother - backstabbing and raw business deals out here in the East. So you are going through the middle stage in my opinion where people are trying to establish themselves apart from their previous groups and figure where they are going. Out here in the east most of us are 3rd and 4th generation seperated from the Villari's and USSD. Think of it, Cerio and Pesare did not speak for some time (a long time) Prof. Cerio and Villari did not speak on the leave, Mattera and Villari same thing. The difference is this happened 30 years ago out here (villari/cerio split).
> Jesse


 
Oh no, not a slam at all, I agree. I'm just beyond it all. I think it's all rediculous. To any and all those people I say, "Move on, get over it!" I was with Villari out here in the west when the split took place. I made comments about it all, I have thoughts about it all ... but it was 1988, 20+ years ago. I just wish people would get over it, if that is in fact what's going on. Forgive and forget. Let's find a way to pull some of this together and better our chosen art.

Just my two cents ....


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> Well, I'm not even in the area, so I'm out, but I wish I could even get someone in my area to respond to a thread ... LOL ... seems that people out here on the left coast won't even talk.
> 
> My two cents would be, once a week would be great, once a month would be good, but even if it is once per quarter, or twice a year ... it would all be fantastic!


 
That's because you're not speekin' the right lingo.....

" Dudes!!!!" any you dudes wanna like....hang and bang...??? like maybe we could like catch a few waves like later....dudes...."
LOL:uhyeah:
(Sorry couldn't resist...)


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> That's because you're not speekin' the right lingo.....
> 
> " Dudes!!!!" any you dudes wanna like....hang and bang...??? like maybe we could like catch a few waves like later....dudes...."
> LOL:uhyeah:
> (Sorry couldn't resist...)


 
LOL ... nice

... but to be honest, I've lived my whole life within 20 miles of the Pacific Ocean and I've never been on a surf board


----------



## RevIV

did we do combo #15 yet?  I like that one, one of the first that uses more circular movements and body shielding.
wait sorry i missed #14 - crazy guy attacks with bo staff, jump over the low swing, kick him in the face and his buddy behind you too....  sorry couldnt resist

so, back to 15, I was always taught it with the guy laying over the knee, now i teach it that way and also with the follow through slamming the guy right to the ground (never going onto my knee for the 2nd one).


----------



## 14 Kempo

Combination #15

Step with left foot to 1100, left hand chop block, right hand driving shuto to the face.
Left hand ridge hand to the back of the neck.
Left hand continues to snake around to the throat as you shuffle behind the opponent.
Pull opponent onto the left knee, using a right dragon fist to the kidney area or lower back as an assist, if needed.
Right palm strike to the nose.
Right rake to the face.
Right downward elbow to the face.
Right hammer strike to the solar plexus
Double downward shutos or palm strikes as you pull your leg out, driving them to the ground.
Same as Mr. Dwire on the variation, simply throw them to the ground, rather than pulling them down onto your knee.


----------



## Jdokan

14 Kempo said:


> LOL ... nice
> 
> ... but to be honest, I've lived my whole life within 20 miles of the Pacific Ocean and I've never been on a surf board


I can appreciate that.....I'm 20 miles North of Boston & have been to the Cape once....In fact prior to my daughter going off to college I'd never been south of Boston....Oh Yeah....& I don't eat Lobster or steamers either.....


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Combination #15
> 
> Step with left foot to 1100, left hand chop block, right hand driving shuto to the face.
> Left hand ridge hand to the back of the neck.
> Left hand continues to snake around to the throat as you shuffle behind the opponent.
> Pull opponent onto the left knee, using a right dragon fist to the kidney area or lower back as an assist, if needed.
> Right palm strike to the nose.
> Right rake to the face.
> Right downward elbow to the face.
> Right hammer strike to the solar plexus
> Double downward shutos or palm strikes as you pull your leg out, driving them to the ground.
> Same as Mr. Dwire on the variation, simply throw them to the ground, rather than pulling them down onto your knee.


 
We do this slightly different  _(I think I need a hot key to type that)_

as we step left foot to 1030 we do a right inward block followed by a left outward block, then step right foot 1030,  a left ridgehand to the front of the throat with a right thrust punch to kidney area (gb25), bringing them back across the knee as we clutch the throat with the left hand.

Then after the series of strikes we twist the neck (left hand pulls chin, right hand pushes back of head) as we pull the knee out, so this is one of the very few techs in our system that could be fatal so it comes with lots of discussion on legal and moral issues when it is taught.


----------



## RevIV

14 Kempo said:


> Combination #15
> 
> Step with left foot to 1100, left hand chop block, right hand driving shuto to the face.
> Left hand ridge hand to the back of the neck.
> Left hand continues to snake around to the throat as you shuffle behind the opponent.
> Pull opponent onto the left knee, using a right dragon fist to the kidney area or lower back as an assist, if needed.
> Right palm strike to the nose.
> Right rake to the face.
> Right downward elbow to the face.
> Right hammer strike to the solar plexus
> Double downward shutos or palm strikes as you pull your leg out, driving them to the ground.
> Same as Mr. Dwire on the variation, simply throw them to the ground, rather than pulling them down onto your knee.


 
we step right over left twist to 11.  do the block,  left foot steps out as ridge hand to thoat, right foot steps behind as left hand controls head for bend over knee. 3 steps 3 hands is how i teach it


----------



## Jdokan

#15
Step r/foot twist 10/11:00 l/cross palm to downward willowleaf (palm up), l/sword to ribs..r/palm to face...Circling behind as you deliver r/ridge arm to neck (jugular)...now being directly behind press him downward w/your left as you attempt a second neck break w/a r/palm to behind the ear.....circle the r/hand around the face in a clockwise fashion tearing the face towards the top of the head slightly turning his face towards to floor.....circle the r/ hand delivering a downward r/elbow to the head....r/snap middle trigger to the zyphoid...drop him to the floor...


----------



## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> we step right over left twist to 11. do the block, left foot steps out as ridge hand to thoat, right foot steps behind as left hand controls head for bend over knee. 3 steps 3 hands is how i teach it


 
Yeah, that's also how I had it, back in the day and recently with my last school as well.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Jdokan said:


> #15
> Step r/foot twist 10/11:00 l/cross palm to downward willowleaf (palm up), l/sword to ribs..r/palm to face...Circling behind as you deliver r/ridge arm to neck (jugular)...now being directly behind press him downward w/your left as you attempt a second neck break w/a r/palm to behind the ear.....circle the r/hand around the face in a clockwise fashion tearing the face towards the top of the head slightly turning his face towards to floor.....circle the r/ hand delivering a downward r/elbow to the head....r/snap middle trigger to the zyphoid...drop him to the floor...


 
Very interesting. I'll have to see if I can actually pull this off from the written word. I hope so, like I said, sounds interesting.


----------



## Jdokan

Jdokan said:


> #15
> Step r/foot twist 10/11:00 l/cross palm to downward willowleaf (palm up), l/sword to ribs..r/palm to face...Circling behind as you deliver l/ridge arm to neck (jugular)...now being directly behind press him downward w/your left as you attempt a second neck break w/a r/palm to behind the ear.....circle the r/hand around the face in a clockwise fashion tearing the face towards the top of the head slightly turning his face towards to floor.....circle the r/ hand delivering a downward r/elbow to the head....r/snap middle trigger to the zyphoid...drop him to the floor...


OOPS>>>>> need to correct the ridge to throat...should have been a left arm not the right....


----------



## DavidCC

DavidCC said:


> We do this slightly different _(I think I need a hot key to type that)_
> 
> as we step left foot to 1030 we do a right inward block followed by a left outward block, then step right foot 1030, a left ridgehand to the front of the throat with a right thrust punch to kidney area (gb25), bringing them back across the knee as we clutch the throat with the left hand.
> 
> Then after the series of strikes we twist the neck (left hand pulls chin, right hand pushes back of head) as we pull the knee out, so this is one of the very few techs in our system that could be fatal so it comes with lots of discussion on legal and moral issues when it is taught.


 
"as we step left foot to 1030 we do a right inward block followed by a left outward block, then step right foot 1030"

I got this wrong too! must be contagious. it's right to 1030 (twist stance) left to 12, right to 1030 (pivot).  I hope that makes more sense.


----------



## RevIV

DavidCC said:


> "as we step left foot to 1030 we do a right inward block followed by a left outward block, then step right foot 1030"
> 
> So are you on the inside of the punch?  I have seen in with a left inward block and a right outward block (also referred to as a windmill block) but to the outside of the punch.


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> "as we step left foot to 1030 we do a right inward block followed by a left outward block, then step right foot 1030"
> 
> I got this wrong too! must be contagious. it's right to 1030 (twist stance) left to 12, right to 1030 (pivot). I hope that makes more sense.


 
Yes, the footwork makes sense, that's how I use to do it as well. The blocking is a bit confusing however. I'm not quite able to picture what's happening there.


----------



## marlon

RevIV said:


> did we do combo #15 yet? I like that one, one of the first that uses more circular movements and body shielding.
> wait sorry i missed #14 - crazy guy attacks with bo staff, jump over the low swing, kick him in the face and his buddy behind you too.... sorry couldnt resist
> 
> so, back to 15, I was always taught it with the guy laying over the knee, now i teach it that way and also with the follow through slamming the guy right to the ground (never going onto my knee for the 2nd one).


 

we pull them on to the knee but keep in mind that the back strikes the knee    If you do not take a forward stance behind the attacker, bad things can happen to your knee as they fall on to it.  I originally was taught a side horse stance but have switched to a froward stance for the knee strike and safety.

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

#14 i jump to the right and kick to the plexus.  I was taught the step back block the jump with a  front kick to the heart and a back kick to an invisible ninja behind me.  the back kick adds to a certain stability with the kick but...


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Yes, the footwork makes sense, that's how I use to do it as well. The blocking is a bit confusing however. I'm not quite able to picture what's happening there.


 
yeah I screwed that up to.

right foot to 1030 with left inward block / right outward
left foot steps behind atacker with left ridgehand to front of throat & punch to kidney.

man what was I on that day? oh yeah, benadryl.


I much prefer our #16, which I am pretty sure is not found in other versions

starts with same twist stance / inward block / outward block as #15
right hand maintains contact pushing arm down, left hand returns to check arm down, rght arm circles overhead as 
step left to 12, unwinding, with right downward hammer to bridge of nose (or other more specific targets, depending on...)

I call it "the blender" but not as in harmonizing like aikido; more like a kitchen appliance


----------



## DavidCC

marlon said:


> #14 i jump to the right and kick to the plexus. I was taught the step back block the jump with a front kick to the heart and a back kick to an invisible ninja behind me. the back kick adds to a certain stability with the kick but...


 

we don't do any of that jump kicking / scissor kick stuff.  Our 14 is totally different. 

Jumping scissor kicks didn't fit our philosophy of "self defense for normal people".  And it certainly doesn't seem very practical, or consistent with other branches of kempo... Cerio's TKD influence?


----------



## marlon

DavidCC said:


> we don't do any of that jump kicking / scissor kick stuff. Our 14 is totally different.
> 
> Jumping scissor kicks didn't fit our philosophy of "self defense for normal people". And it certainly doesn't seem very practical, or consistent with other branches of kempo... Cerio's TKD influence?


 
it could be, but it is what we have.  it can be very surprising and it is good athletic training within the curricullum. then again i have never done a scissor kick during reaction drills or situation dilemma drills...

marlon


----------



## Matt

DavidCC said:


> we don't do any of that jump kicking / scissor kick stuff.  Our 14 is totally different.
> 
> Jumping scissor kicks didn't fit our philosophy of "self defense for normal people".  And it certainly doesn't seem very practical, or consistent with other branches of kempo... Cerio's TKD influence?



More likely Pesare's TKD influence.


----------



## Mark L

#14 (sans block, emphasis on the front kick) is well suited to avoiding and countering a sweep, I use it in sparring all the time.


----------



## Jdokan

# 14   
    step right to 4:00 r/crossing palm block with a lifting l/wrist block...l/snap kick to the forward knee...r/front kick to whatever target is open (depending on which foot stepped in) step back down and follow with another kick to the mid-body...again depending on which foot stepped in...if their right foot, then the second kick is to the groin & the last to the heart/face...If their left foot lunged in...the second kick is to the body and the third kick may or may not come into play depending on their reaction to the second kick....


----------



## marlon

14 Kempo said:


> Combination #15
> 
> Step with left foot to 1100, left hand chop block, right hand driving shuto to the face.
> Left hand ridge hand to the back of the neck.
> Left hand continues to snake around to the throat as you shuffle behind the opponent.
> Pull opponent onto the left knee, using a right dragon fist to the kidney area or lower back as an assist, if needed.
> Right palm strike to the nose.
> Right rake to the face.
> Right downward elbow to the face.
> Right hammer strike to the solar plexus
> Double downward shutos or palm strikes as you pull your leg out, driving them to the ground.
> Same as Mr. Dwire on the variation, simply throw them to the ground, rather than pulling them down onto your knee.


 

15 i use a dragon stance stpping forward towards 11:30 with a right open hand block above the elbow.  The dragon stance i use not only for escape but also to involve the hips in the brace/push/block.  b/c this will turn the attacker away from you and eliminate many of thier weapons.  also if you enter this way and the punch happenn to be lefty who still can turn them and position them disadvantageously.  turning them minimizes the movement you need to make in order to be behind them then the ridge hand throat essentially pulls them backwards where they cannot brace so minimal resistance.  it is a good technique to help us learn the skills to get where skk likes to fight best...beside and behind the attacker

respectfully,
marlon


----------



## DavidCC

I am surprised and happy to tell you that we do this technqiue almost exactly the same way


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> I am surprised and happy to tell you that we do this technqiue almost exactly the same way


 
Are you admitting in a public forum that you have lowered yourself to our standards ... LOL


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Are you admitting in a public forum that you have lowered yourself to our standards ... LOL


 
awww, did I ever say there was a lower/higher  ??  sorry if I did, I don't really think of it that way.

Geary never got past green, so, some gaps had to be filled in.  Mostly with stuff he got from Lou Angel, or NCK videos hahaha


the techs are just drills... the style is abstract.  Chow never taught the same tech twice, yet, did he have a "style"?   We simplify, stream-line, test, discard, add, etc we're not bound by traditions, we're benfitting and learning from them.


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> awww, did I ever say there was a lower/higher  ?? sorry if I did, I don't really think of it that way.
> 
> Geary never got past green, so, some gaps had to be filled in. Mostly with stuff he got from Lou Angel, or NCK videos hahaha
> 
> 
> the techs are just drills... the style is abstract. Chow never taught the same tech twice, yet, did he have a "style"? We simplify, stream-line, test, discard, add, etc we're not bound by traditions, we're benfitting and learning from them.


 
I was just joking around, David. No worries here. Our kempo art is evolving as well as are most around the country. Our influence comes from kung fu. I can tell you all, that at least here on the West Coast, we were being told that we were learning kung fu, and that was far, far from the truth. Once I actually saw and worked with someone experienced in kung fu, and watched them perform the original 26 combinations, my jaw dropped. Recognizable, but different.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Chow never taught the same tech twice, quote]
> 
> 
> I've heard differently.  I asked a well known historian from the Godin line and Chow had a set curriculum he taught through the ranks.


----------



## DavidCC

Interesting, but that does contradict everyone else I've ever read who wrote about how Chow taught...


----------



## John Bishop

DavidCC said:


> Interesting, but that does contradict everyone else I've ever read who wrote about how Chow taught...



Chow taught for around 50+ years.  And he made changes, innovations, style name changes, etc over the years.  So it's very possible that students were taught different things at different points of Chow's teaching career.  
I was told by some who trained with him in the 50's that "he very seldom taught the same thing twice".  One of these people was Ralph Castro.  In fact Castro made it a point to write down what Chow taught each day, because he didn't think Chow would teach the same technique any time soon. He later took those written techniques and formulated his "Shaolin Kenpo" system. 
People who trained with Chow in the 40's like Adriano Emperado, said Chow basically followed the Mitose kenpo jiu jutsu curriculum, with some judo added.    
If you look at the Kenpo techniques in Kajukenbo, Shaolin Kenpo, Goshin Jitsu Kai Kenpo, and Kara-ho Kempo, you'll see differences reflecting the time periods Emperado, Castro, Chun, and Kuoha trained with Chow.


----------



## JTKenpo

John Bishop said:


> Chow taught for around 50+ years. And he made changes, innovations, style name changes, etc over the years. So it's very possible that students were taught different things at different points of Chow's teaching career.
> I was told by some who trained with him in the 50's that "he very seldom taught the same thing twice". One of these people was Ralph Castro. In fact Castro made it a point to write down what Chow taught each day, because he didn't think Chow would teach the same technique any time soon. He later took those written techniques and formulated his "Shaolin Kenpo" system.
> People who trained with Chow in the 40's like Adriano Emperado, said Chow basically followed the Mitose kenpo jiu jutsu curriculum, with some judo added.
> If you look at the Kenpo techniques in Kajukenbo, Shaolin Kenpo, Goshin Jitsu Kai Kenpo, and Kara-ho Kempo, you'll see differences reflecting the time periods Emperado, Castro, Chun, and Kuoha trained with Chow.


 
I suppose if you teach for half a century you may mix things up a bit from time to time.


----------



## JTKenpo

DavidCC said:


> Interesting, but that does contradict everyone else I've ever read who wrote about how Chow taught...


 

I agree and thats what prompted me to ask.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.
> 
> The blocks to me on DM 6 suggest, IMHO only that the interpretation is being viewed off the right cross or giving more of a safety messure to the first DM most students learn. I don't think 6 needs the blocks, but there are many great concepts when you look at versions of 6 with them.
> 
> 
> I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`
> 
> Yes if DM 6 originally had a fifty yard dash then yes the 50 yard dash would be a concept. There is a form in SK where you run away then reverse direction and impale your opponent with your strikes. The first weapon defense you should have is, pull out your wallet and give it up properly. You could easily argue that making that technique work well requires developing your running skills especially with a gun when during flight you aren't completly out of danger till you go around an obstacle to the path of the bullet. Why they want too shoot you afterwards I don't know, but technically you are still in range till you accomplish that.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> But SKK is fairly new and the originators, for the most part, are still alive, even if you trace back to 3 different styles (NCK, KGS, Kaju).


 
   Yes those are great systems, but I never fail to be amazed by SK masters. I haven't gone to a workout yet where I haven't learned new concepts on techniques I am working on now and I am becoming an old dog, I am not new to the system by any stretch. If that learning curve ever runs out then I will spend more time on the lineage arts, but right now tons to learn already. I've trained in the system and out of the system. The system just works well for me right now. That could always change however. 

   Someone had mentioned knowing the history of the system. I have to admit I am guilty of not caring too much about the history although I can certainly understand the argument for knowing it. I just get headaches when I read the explanation. I would say those who are interested Prof. Joe Shuras has posted many times in much detail the history of SK. For those who haven't read it my sarcastic take on the history is the Katas which were called pinans, but aren't the pinions your thinking of................That line some ups why I get headaches. I can follow the explanation, but you gotta read it a few times.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> For example, Doc Chapel has proven beyond a shodow of doubt (in my mind) that the C-Step and the half-moon stance are fundamentally flawed and are in fact making us weaker. So do we just ignore that and continue to teach these things out of tradition? The deepe we go down this hole, the more of these pitfalls we will find.


 
   When you place a boxer in front of a heavy bag your doing a disservice. Since the attacker doesn't actually stand still how can you possibly train with a heavy bag that isn't moving like a person. The half moon is a training tool. You use it too learn from an easier format. You use it to make the early training safer. You use it too a smaller degree to learn to attack the leg when moving forward. If someone doesn't like using the half moon early on they just change systems.


----------



## SK101

DavidCC said:


> that is, it is easier to move inside a hooking or roundhouse, easier to move outside a straight punch.


 
Sorry Dave I seem to be disagreeing with you more than usual tonight. I agree with the first part, but straight punch is as easy to move to the inside as to go to the outside. Safer on the outside since you have less limbs to deal with generally and with more targets on the inside.

   Maybe my meaning of inside is different. terminology can be a problem.


----------



## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> Well, I'm not even in the area, so I'm out, but I wish I could even get someone in my area to respond to a thread ... LOL ... seems that people out here on the left coast won't even talk.
> 
> My two cents would be, once a week would be great, once a month would be good, but even if it is once per quarter, or twice a year ... it would all be fantastic!


 
I am in Bakersfield only a 5 hour drive from you. If you ever want to come up and train just let me know. Besides we have cows up here. So much to see and do. Man sometimes I miss it down south.


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## SK101

DavidCC said:


> Nebraska is a great central location for an annual event.
> 
> for example www.budocamponline.com
> 
> :angel:


 
Amen Dave I was thinking that same thought. We can cruise Grand Island. Maybe go cowtipping. I suppose Omaha isn't as bad as Grand Island. Are you guys still in Omaha?


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## SK101

RevIV said:


> did we do combo #15 yet? I like that one, one of the first that uses more circular movements and body shielding.
> wait sorry i missed #14 - crazy guy attacks with bo staff, jump over the low swing, kick him in the face and his buddy behind you too.... sorry couldnt resist
> 
> so, back to 15, I was always taught it with the guy laying over the knee, now i teach it that way and also with the follow through slamming the guy right to the ground (never going onto my knee for the 2nd one).


 

   The original version I had of 15 we used a #5 block and a cross step even though we practiced with a straight punch. I like the way the groin strike and ridge were simultaneous. This concept is certainly in other parts of the system, but that strike is nasty off a straight punch and much more dangerous if the attack was an overhead strike or club. I wouldn't finish the tech the same way if it was a club, but non the less I like that concept. 

    I was watching the cerio interpretatin of 15 with the knee angeled up so you break the spine on your knee and started wondering how that position compared to doing a technique where they have been felled. I really like the idea of using that position to create less counters for the attacker who is now defending. 

   Does anyone look at it differently and think better to have them on the floor as far as counters go.


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## SK101

One more thought on 15 both the crossover w#5 block and the professor I version with left palm then right palm blocks they both teach us to get behind the opponent.

    Professor I referrs to cleansing the meridians on this technique. Anyone had the chance to work this concept in person with him?


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## SK101

14 Kempo said:


> Oh no, not a slam at all, I agree. I'm just beyond it all. I think it's all rediculous. To any and all those people I say, "Move on, get over it!" I was with Villari out here in the west when the split took place. I made comments about it all, I have thoughts about it all ... but it was 1988, 20+ years ago. I just wish people would get over it, if that is in fact what's going on. Forgive and forget. Let's find a way to pull some of this together and better our chosen art.
> 
> Just my two cents ....


 
I heard those were the fun times. Corporate gut a facelift with bullet proof glass, because persons unknown drove by with shotguns and removed the windows. 

Master Taylor had told me $1,000,000 had been exchanged on a handshake and then United was repeatedly sued using their money. I don't forsee Villari and Mattera seeing eye to eye anytime soon.

I am way off subject,but do know how they served the court papers on Villari to keep him from running a California tournament after the split. It is a funny story.


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## DavidCC

SK101 said:


> Amen Dave I was thinking that same thought. We can cruise Grand Island. Maybe go cowtipping. I suppose Omaha isn't as bad as Grand Island. Are you guys still in Omaha?


 
Grand Island is many hours away from Omaha.  Omaha is a "real" city, most of our streets are paved now... 45th largest in the US or so... you'd have to make a road-trip to find some cows to tip, but that's OK plenty of time to get drunk on the way.


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## DavidCC

SK101 said:


> DavidCC said:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know about your #6, but mine doesn't include any blocking.[\quote]
> 
> The blocks to me on DM 6 suggest, IMHO only that the interpretation is being viewed off the right cross or giving more of a safety messure to the first DM most students learn. I don't think 6 needs the blocks, but there are many great concepts when you look at versions of 6 with them.
> 
> 
> I could prefix #6 with a 50-yard dash to 6 oclock, does #6 teach sprinting LOL???`
> 
> Yes if DM 6 originally had a fifty yard dash then yes the 50 yard dash would be a concept. There is a form in SK where you run away then reverse direction and impale your opponent with your strikes. The first weapon defense you should have is, pull out your wallet and give it up properly. You could easily argue that making that technique work well requires developing your running skills especially with a gun when during flight you aren't completly out of danger till you go around an obstacle to the path of the bullet. Why they want too shoot you afterwards I don't know, but technically you are still in range till you accomplish that.
> 
> 
> 
> we teach hands in a guard position but the principle we think is core to #6 is that longer weapons can beat the action vs reaction timing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SK101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes those are great systems, but I never fail to be amazed by SK masters. I haven't gone to a workout yet where I haven't learned new concepts on techniques I am working on now and I am becoming an old dog, I am not new to the system by any stretch. If that learning curve ever runs out then I will spend more time on the lineage arts, but right now tons to learn already. I've trained in the system and out of the system. The system just works well for me right now. That could always change however.
> 
> Someone had mentioned knowing the history of the system. I have to admit I am guilty of not caring too much about the history although I can certainly understand the argument for knowing it. I just get headaches when I read the explanation. I would say those who are interested Prof. Joe Shuras has posted many times in much detail the history of SK. For those who haven't read it my sarcastic take on the history is the Katas which were called pinans, but aren't the pinions your thinking of................That line some ups why I get headaches. I can follow the explanation, but you gotta read it a few times.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> The reason I brought up the SKK leaders was to say that here we are in this thread, trying to hash out some answers to questiosn that any of these gusy shoudl be able to answer; some of the posters here are in contact with these people, so why are we guessing when they could be asked...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SK101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> When you place a boxer in front of a heavy bag your doing a disservice. Since the attacker doesn't actually stand still how can you possibly train with a heavy bag that isn't moving like a person. The half moon is a training tool. You use it too learn from an easier format. You use it to make the early training safer. You use it too a smaller degree to learn to attack the leg when moving forward. If someone doesn't like using the half moon early on they just change systems.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I fully agree that students need a predicatable attack to work against as they learn a technique; we have chosen to make that a realistic attack from the beginning, just executed slower than real life will come at you.  And I would opine that the same way you suggest a heavy bag is a disservice to a boxer because "it doesn't move like a person", I suggest the exact same criteria be applied to having attackers use half-moons - it isn't moving like a person.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SK101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry Dave I seem to be disagreeing with you more than usual tonight. I agree with the first part, but straight punch is as easy to move to the inside as to go to the outside. Safer on the outside since you have less limbs to deal with generally and with more targets on the inside.
> 
> Maybe my meaning of inside is different. terminology can be a problem.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I'm fully used to beign disagreed with.  I'm on my 2nd wife and have 3 daughters living with me.
> When I think iof a straight punch I think of one that comes directly at my head from the attackers shoulder, so it is straight on an angle inwards, so for me at least, it is easier to go outside those than inside.  however this is only a small degree easier, I don't totally disagree with what you wrote, and perhaps as I get better that difference will disappear for me.
Click to expand...


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## punisher73

14 Kempo said:


> Our influence comes from kung fu. I can tell you all, that at least here on the West Coast, we were being told that we were learning kung fu, and that was far, far from the truth. Once I actually saw and worked with someone experienced in kung fu, and watched them perform the original 26 combinations, my jaw dropped. Recognizable, but different.


 
When you talk about the original 26 combos, are those from Karazenpo GoshinJutsu?  What were the original attacks for them?


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## 14 Kempo

punisher73 said:


> When you talk about the original 26 combos, are those from Karazenpo GoshinJutsu? What were the original attacks for them?


 
I would have to answer yes to that. We had Sonny Gascon in our shool his past year and performed those 26 movements for him. As far as the original attacks, I can only say that for me, they are all learned off a step through punch. We do, however, have discussions involving them being done off of grabs ... and we do them ourselves off of various attacks, at a higher level, and with adjustments. 

My answer to you can only be through my own personal experience, and I would have to say that I learned them originally in the late 80s and they were done off a right step through punch.


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## punisher73

14 Kempo said:


> I would have to answer yes to that. We had Sonny Gascon in our shool his past year and performed those 26 movements for him. As far as the original attacks, I can only say that for me, they are all learned off a step through punch. We do, however, have discussions involving them being done off of grabs ... and we do them ourselves off of various attacks, at a higher level, and with adjustments.
> 
> My answer to you can only be through my own personal experience, and I would have to say that I learned them originally in the late 80s and they were done off a right step through punch.


 
How much have they been altered from the original way?  I came across an article ( http://www.duncansmartialarts.com/article3.htm ), but it said that the original DM's were based off of the "monkey dances" (katas) and had been altered so that they did not correspond to those anymore.

I have also heard that the original 26 dealt with a boxer throwing a right cross.  Master Rebelo talks about this in one of his youtube clips.  He shows how the original #3 has you step offline and strikes the bladder with a punch.  He then goes on to show that with a step through punch the bladder isn't as accessible, but it allows for the addition of the shoulder grab/throw.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CU2FltacEzg&feature=channel_page

I am trying to learn more of the history of the early kempo styles and any help is appreciated.


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## JTKenpo

punisher73 said:


> I am trying to learn more of the history of the early kempo styles and any help is appreciated.


 
Don't make yourself too crazy over it, Kenpo history is to truth as beauty is to the eye of the beholder.


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## LawDog

JTKenpo,
Oh so true.
:idunno:


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