# Judo: Sport or martial art?



## Patrick Skerry

What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?


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## bignick

good to see this split off...

i think it depends on how you define judo...it's awfully hard to find a gym today that isn't at least a bit sport-oriented....

i think my view on the matter is skewed due to my training...my judo/jujutsu instructor is the same person and i don't practice judo as a sport....do i compete in judo shiai..yes...and they can be a rewarding experience...i view shiai and randori as training tools for testing yourself agains a resisting opponent...not as a sport and not as a real life situation


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> good to see this split off...
> 
> i think it depends on how you define judo...it's awfully hard to find a gym today that isn't at least a bit sport-oriented....
> 
> i think my view on the matter is skewed due to my training...my judo/jujutsu instructor is the same person and i don't practice judo as a sport....do i compete in judo shiai..yes...and they can be a rewarding experience...i view shiai and randori as training tools for testing yourself agains a resisting opponent...not as a sport and not as a real life situation


Well, you see, that appears to be Dr. Kano's view as well, that a shiai is not a game, but technique testing.  Dr. Kano's repetoire of training was: Randori 80%; Kata 17%; and shiai 3% of judo. (see Donn Draeger's article: 'What is Rank?').

Jigoro Kano devoted just 3% of his judo to shiai, not the 90% or more as practiced in some American and European judo clubs.  I also feel that the inclusion of kata in judo helps take it away from the sporting aspect.

Would you consider all the judo kata competition in the U.S. a sport?

If ballroom dancing were made an Olympic event (don't laugh, look at synchronized swimming), would that make ballroom dancing a sport?

Dr. Kano never once referred to judo as a sport, not even in his paper on judo's contribution to physical education.

I heartily resist everyway I can the sportification of judo, beginning by refusing to wear the baby blue gi.


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## Kane

Judo is a sport as well a Martial Art. Same with Boxing, Wrestling, and Tae Kwon Do. Just becasue they are in the Olympics, doesn't mean the sport isn't a Martial Art.


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## auxprix

I agree with Kane, it has both sport and Martial Art elements.


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## Patrick Skerry

Kane said:
			
		

> Judo is a sport as well a Martial Art. Same with Boxing, Wrestling, and Tae Kwon Do. Just becasue they are in the Olympics, doesn't mean the sport isn't a Martial Art.


Hello Kane:

Thanks for the reply.  I'm not trying to be a wise guy or anything, I just want to get to the root of this dilemma, at least for me.  The style of argumentation I am using is called Dialectic - to bring out any inherent contradiction within a different argument or opinion.  So I am really not being confrontational, even though it might come across that way in a type-written forum.

Now, hockey is definately a sport, but just because it has hip checks doesn't make it a martial art.  Same for professional basketball, just because the elbows fly under the net, doesn't make basketball a martial art.

And without a doubt (again, in my opinion), wrestling and boxing have been reduced to a combative sport.  I emphasized 'reduced' because so much of the combat effective techniques have been removed from boxing & wrestling to provide entertainment, that they no longer imress anybody but bookies and sportsbetters.

But judo is not hermaphrodite, this martial art does not contain enough sporting elements to be twisted and mutated into a sport without becoming unrecognizable as judo - it will become 'not-judo'.

What would happen if Kendo became an Olympic event?  Would Kendo automatically be reduced to a sport?  Similar to judo, Kendo contains kata which is integral to its practice.  Does this mean that Kata must become an Olympic event also?

Kendo allows the Japanese swordsman to practice his sword techniques safely, just as kata allows the swordsman to practice with a live blade safely.  Kendo tournament is just technique testing,  just as a judo shiai is technique testing - not a sportive competition to beat the other team and win a trophy.

Judo, Kendo, TKD, and the other martial arts deal with the profound subjects of life & death too closesly to be considered a mere sport!  Dr. Kano and the Kodokan have perfected the art of judo, while the IOC and the IJF are attempting to reduce judo into a sport.  Despite their efforts, I feel judo is too much of a martial art for them to be successful.


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## bignick

First off, I do not practice kendo, but i hold the people that do in the highest regard...the training i have seen is intense and requires great dedication.....

but from what i understand kendo competition has little to do real life swordmanship...from what i understand, the legal scoring areas in kendo are all to the chest and head...where the people are most heavily armored...obviously, this is to protect the practitioners from getting hurt in competition, but in a real situation the swordsman would aim for the weakest parts...that weren't armored, or very lightly covered...

that's the sport of kendo...

i'm willing to bet that most kendo schools teach striking to the vulnerable areas under controlled conditions such as in class were the risk of injury is less than in a shiai...

from reading your posts i can tell you greatly dislike what competition or sport judo has become so you want to distance yourself from it...i can't say i really disagree with a lot of the arguments you've made...but the truth is that is almost impossible to seperate the sport from judo...because that is what the majority of people are practicing...

this is taken from the book that was just published by Vladimir Putin...



> Today judo is mainly (in fact, virtually only) a sport. What we today call judo is far removed from what its originator had conceived and created. Jigoro Kano's theoretical developments and philosophical musings find no resonance in today's sport. We see only the tip of the iceberg, and only a tip that, under the influence of time, has changed it's outline, acquiring new contours until it barely resembles the original form. Kano saw judo technique as a means to self-perfection on the path to achieving an ethical ideal. Today, alas, goals, points, and seconds have been given primary importance, causing the sport much harm. And even in judo's homeland, Japan, matters of prestige on the world tatami have pushed to the background the ideas that guided the great educator.


he goes on to say



> What do we see today? Judo technique? Yes, without a doubt. But the spirit of judo as Jigoro Kano understood it is lacking now. Is this good or bad? There is no clear-cut answer to this question. That's how it has turned out. Such is the influence of time


he has more about the time Prof. Kano ripped into a group of competitors after a competition for the poor judo they were practicing in order to win medals...telling them brute strength is not the judo i showed you and how practicing and competing like that would be the end of Kodokan Judo...

the point is that whatever your feelings on what judo should be or what it has become probably aren't going to change anything...judo is what it is and it is what it has become...

my only advice is to practice the art as you see fit...and in the way the bests serves your ideals


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## loki09789

My understanding was that Judo was the sport/competitive derivity of JuJiutsu as Mui Tai is the sport derivitive of KrabriKrabrong (sp?) or TKD (as taught through the olympic/governmentally regulated organizations) is a sport derivitive of either the combative form of TKD taught to Korean military or the Kuk Sool/HWarang Do type arts of Korea.

These may be combative in application, like boxing is a 'combative sport' but because people train to apply techniques with tactics designed to be successful specifically for competition, it is sport.

Ballroom dancing....already a competitive 'sporting' event in its own right. Olympic event? Sure why not. We have ice dancing, synchro swimming, extreme/performance based sports like snow boarding (in the tube not the downhill racing in this reference)...would you catch me watching ball room dancing during olympic coverage? Well, I don't watch ice dancing so.....

I can appreciate the artistry (and the skimpy outifits ) of ice dancing or figure skating or ballroom but I would rather watch a hockey game if I had the choice.


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> First off, I do not practice kendo, but i hold the people that do in the highest regard...the training i have seen is intense and requires great dedication.....
> 
> but from what i understand kendo competition has little to do real life swordmanship...from what i understand, the legal scoring areas in kendo are all to the chest and head...where the people are most heavily armored...obviously, this is to protect the practitioners from getting hurt in competition, but in a real situation the swordsman would aim for the weakest parts...that weren't armored, or very lightly covered...
> 
> that's the sport of kendo...
> 
> i'm willing to bet that most kendo schools teach striking to the vulnerable areas under controlled conditions such as in class were the risk of injury is less than in a shiai...
> 
> from reading your posts i can tell you greatly dislike what competition or sport judo has become so you want to distance yourself from it...i can't say i really disagree with a lot of the arguments you've made...but the truth is that is almost impossible to seperate the sport from judo...because that is what the majority of people are practicing...
> 
> this is taken from the book that was just published by Vladimir Putin...
> 
> 
> he goes on to say
> 
> 
> he has more about the time Prof. Kano ripped into a group of competitors after a competition for the poor judo they were practicing in order to win medals...telling them brute strength is not the judo i showed you and how practicing and competing like that would be the end of Kodokan Judo...
> 
> the point is that whatever your feelings on what judo should be or what it has become probably aren't going to change anything...judo is what it is and it is what it has become...
> 
> my only advice is to practice the art as you see fit...and in the way the bests serves your ideals


Hi Richard,

Nice reply, but a little too fatalistic to be a valid argument.   See you failed to take into consideration what the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation today feel about judo, they would and do totally disagree with the IJF's interpretation, as echoed by Russian President Putin's view toward judo.  Don't forget, that in Russia, and other socialist based countries, their Olympic Committee is part of their government apparatus, so they mirror the IOC's opinion on judo.  They interpret judo to their own interests and ignore the founder's philosophy. 

Both the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation are at total odds against the views put forth by Vladimir Putin, Europe, and both the IOC & IJF, regarding the so-called transmorgrification of judo into a mere sport.  That is a reason the All Japan Judo Championships, and the Kodokan's Red & White shiai's are fought wearing only white gi's!!   Again, Dr. Kano already made the distinction between jidan judo (high judo) and godan judo (low judo).

The problem is going to be another rift within the ranks of judo.  The formation of yet another, or many more, judo organizations within the United States and political battles over rank recognition.  Already there are distinctions made between sport judo and classical judo.  I've already been asked: do you do sport judo or regular judo?  I said: What's sport judo?  And already the confrontations are happening, for me its when I refuse to don the blue gi.   So I've been warned that I won't be allowed to compete, and I warned that I will get a lawyer and sue for discrimination.  I won't be forced to wear a blue gi.

I fully intend to practice judo as I see fit, even if it means opening my own non-sanctioned dojo.  Thanks!


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## bignick

i didn't say this is the only way it's practiced...

you say judo is a martial art...not a sport...that it can't be both...

but it is practiced as both...i left out some parts of Putin's book that talked about how even today judo is still practiced by some as a pure martial art and in the kodokan the have sections that teach the martial/self defense aspects...because i didn't think they pertained to the discussion

some people practice judo as a pastime...or sport, for fun and excersize and so on...

other practice it very seriously as a martial art

some people fall inbetween...


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> i didn't say this is the only way it's practiced...
> 
> you say judo is a martial art...not a sport...that it can't be both...
> 
> but it is practiced as both...i left out some parts of Putin's book that talked about how even today judo is still practiced by some as a pure martial art and in the kodokan the have sections that teach the martial/self defense aspects...because i didn't think they pertained to the discussion
> 
> some people practice judo as a pastime...or sport, for fun and excersize and so on...
> 
> other practice it very seriously as a martial art
> 
> some people fall inbetween...


Yes, and that is some of the problems, the recreational judo practitioner is a threat to sport judo.

Why? Because they are a big part of long term judo players, but they are not active in competion, nor do they want to be. They are starting to be pressured into sending more of their students into shiai; to teach sport judo instead of kodokan judo.

How do I know? I read through several judo organization websites, such as JudoAmerica; United States Judo, Inc.; USJA; USJF; etc. etc., and all these groups have papers and opinions indicating a concern over the lack of enthusiasm of American judoists for competition. A big fat concern.

Meaning, that there is an awareness of practicing judo soley for the trophies and spectator approval, i.e. big ticket sales. A movement toward professional judoism is obviously in the works. Obnoxiously the International Olympic Committee, in cahoots with the IJF, have blatantly manipulated the contest rules of judo to make the tournaments more appealing and to draw more spectators!   In my judo shiai experience, not once have I gone to shiai with the thought of providing entertainment to a spectator, and I couldn't care less if my struggles on the mat are entertaining anybody.

This attitude of sportifying judo is being echoed by American judo organizations in their awareness of the recreational judo practitioner's apathy toward shiai. They (the above mentioned judo groups) want to, in my humble opinion, break that apathy.

Yet, recreational judo is totally tolerated in Japan, to the point where they have 'family dojo's', but the family dojo in the states is being subtley criticized.

So I feel it is impossible to treat judo as a combative sport without making it 'not-judo'. Combative judo is jiu-jitsu, and sport judo is not-judo.


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## someguy

What prevents a martial art from being a sport as well?
I don't know judo so I could really add much to this topic.


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## Patrick Skerry

someguy said:
			
		

> What prevents a martial art from being a sport as well?
> I don't know judo so I could really add much to this topic.


I believe the very original purpose of a martial art - to kill - is what prevents it from becoming a sport without some extreme modification to the point of total mutation, unrecognizable as the original art.

Boxing and wrestling come to mind as a common example.  As practiced by the Greeks and Romans, boxing and wrestling killed, they were martial arts also used on the battlefield for hand-to-hand combat.  As practiced in the Olympics, boxing and wrestling are mere shadows of their origins.

Yet the Eastern martial arts, say Hakko-ryu jiu-jitsu, are not sports because they contain too many deadly techniques, that if all of them were removed, there would be virtually nothing left.  Judo was modified from jiu-jitsu to make it more humane and to comply with the anti-samurai edicts of the Meiji Restoration in Japan (1868-1912).  Those edicts absolutely did not sportify or turn the martial arts into a sport!  Shiai, whether in kendo or judo, is technique testing, not a game for a trophy.

And finally, the deep philosophical life & death situations inherent in the martial arts, but absent in sports, also helps to exclude judo from sportdom.


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## Ceicei

I do practice Judo, but only as a secondary martial arts (my primary art is American Kenpo). I did not take up Judo to compete. However, the Judo school I go to do train with a sports view. If they start to insist when I get higher up in the ranks that I must compete, I will probably leave to take JuJutsu elsewhere. There are others who have done the same thing. JuJutsu does not have a sports view as much as Judo.

- Ceicei


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## Patrick Skerry

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I do practice Judo, but only as a secondary martial arts (my primary art is American Kenpo). I did not take up Judo to compete. However, the Judo school I go to do train with a sports view. If they start to insist when I get higher up in the ranks that I must compete, I will probably leave to take JuJutsu elsewhere. There are others who have done the same thing. JuJutsu does not have a sports view as much as Judo.
> 
> - Ceicei


That is happening a lot.  A lot of people start judo because its a martial art, then as a few years go by and they begin to progress, they are suddenly steered to the competition side of it; sometimes to the exclusion of all else.  This is when a lot of people drop out of judo, when it turns into a sport.  

You need competition in judo for increase in rank and as a reality check, but you also need randori and kata.  Trouble is, a lot of schools forget kata and use randori as a training method just for competition.

Dr. Kano stipulated: 80% Randori; 17% Kata; and 3% Shiai (competition) for his judo training repetoire, and this is the ratio as it should be practice.

When judo clubs start whipping their students into a win, win, win, frenzy, then its time to leave and look for another judo club - but not to leave judo entirely.


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## bignick

there is no sport view in jujitsu, period...that's one of the reason's Kano created judo...so people could practice their techniques against other people without having to worry about being killed during the competition...which kind of weakens your position on judo not being sportdom...judo is not a sport as i practice it...but let's face it...a shiai is a sporting aspect of modern judo...whether you want to admit it or not...i highly doubt many people enter a shiai with thought of dying on their minds...

we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...

we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...

there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> there is no sport view in jujitsu, period...that's one of the reason's Kano created judo...so people could practice their techniques against other people without having to worry about being killed during the competition...which kind of weakens your position on judo not being sportdom...judo is not a sport as i practice it...but let's face it...a shiai is a sporting aspect of modern judo...whether you want to admit it or not...i highly doubt many people enter a shiai with thought of dying on their minds...
> 
> we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...
> 
> we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...
> 
> there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition


Competition is as much a test for the referree as it is for the competitor.  The Japanese haven't lost sight of this fact, but the IOC have by trying to make the ref's job easier with the blue gi (and the 'Golden Score').  Neither will improve judo, or improve the quality of referee's in international competition.


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## someguy

Uh I ment couldn't not could oops I should pay more attention to myself...or something
Well I guess it sort of depends on defenition of martial art.


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## bignick

well...if we use the strictest definition of martial art...judo isn't one...


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> well...if we use the strictest definition of martial art...judo isn't one...


And what is the 'strictest' definition of a martial art?


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## bignick

well...if we use the word bujutsu...which is often used as martial arts...first off..

jutsu - as far as i know is art, technique...this is of cours differentiated by -do which is way

bu -  we'll just keep as martial

as for martial...judo was not developed with the purpose of warfare or the military in mind...

as for art - kano deliberately called it judo...not jujutsu...because judo was more than just a strict art or techniques of combat...it was a way of life...therefore juDO instead of juJUTSU

that being the strictest definition of bujutsu or martial arts...it's pretty easy to see judo is not a martial art...


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## John Bishop

bignick said:
			
		

> there is no sport view in jujitsu, period...that's one of the reason's Kano created judo...so people could practice their techniques against other people without having to worry about being killed during the competition...which kind of weakens your position on judo not being sportdom...judo is not a sport as i practice it...but let's face it...a shiai is a sporting aspect of modern judo...whether you want to admit it or not...i highly doubt many people enter a shiai with thought of dying on their minds...
> 
> we seem to be on the same side of the tracks here...neither believes that judo is sport and trying to turn it into a sport is doing harm to judo...
> 
> we seem to have different definitions on what constitutes a sport...there has always been a sporting aspect to judo, in my opinion...
> 
> there's a difference between being a sport and having sporting aspects...you be able to compete in judo safely you have to have rules and there has to be a sporting philosophy behind it...otherwise people get hurt...if you have someone in a choke or a submission and they pass out or tap you let go...that's a sporting philosophy...if someone gets a good throw and ippon is called the match is over...the loser doesn't try to get up and continue the fight...he lost the competition


Pretty good example.  Let's face it, it comes down to application and philosophy.  The Olympics did to Tae Kwon Do the same it did to Judo.  In other words it caused many organizations/instructors/practitioners to switch their emphasis from self defense to the "sporting aspect".  I mean who wouldn't want to be a Olympian? Look at Olympic tae kwon do matches.  Competitors fighting with their hands down by their sides because the judges ussually won't score hand strikes.  But who fights for real without their hands?
I think it comes down to your individual needs.  If you want to be a Olympian you train with a school that has good "coaches" and specializes in competitive judo.  If you want to learn self defense, you go with a school that specializes in self defense training.  If you can't find a judo school that specializes in self defense, you cross train in jujitsu.  Hopefully you can find a school that has a balance between the self defense and sporting aspects.  Because lets face it, no matter how serious you are about your self defense training, trying it out against someone else is fun 
Again, it's application.  You can take boxing and make it a self defense system if you throw out sporting rules and train your boxers to defend against the illegal boxing tactics, like kicking, grabbing, two against one, armed attacks, etc.  

More referance on judo/jujitsu:  http://kajukenboinfo.com/judoju.html


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## Patrick Skerry

Hi Rich:

Good try at a definition, but there are a few holes in it.

First lets distinguish an 'art' from a 'science'. Science uses the scientific method: Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and conclusion which produces consistant and predictable results. The beauty and strength of science is that it has _reproducible _results. Science produces results that are consistant, predictable, and can be reproduced at will anywhere on the planet. Chemistry and physics are sciences, but not sociology, because sociology does not produce consistant and predictable results, sociology is an art.

(Political Science is not a science, it is misnamed, a _misnomer_. The PoliSci people claim to be soon to be able to predict elections with scientific certainty, but haven't yet, and they presumptuously called their field political _science. _Political Scientists are criticized for this in Universities).

Warfare is an art, not a science. Nobody can predict the outcome of a war. There is no formula for victory in warfare. The art of warfare takes a longer time to learn than the science of physics, because the outcome of a war cannot be predicted with absolute certainty (as in a science) but must be learned through experience, constant study, and achieving victory through a series of correct educated guesses, not by a pat formula. Martial means warlike or warfare. 

The martial arts are not scientific. The martial arts cannot predict the victory of any combative encounter or fistfight. So the martial artist studies 'all' forms of combat. The martial arts are all forms of combat, whether boxing, jiu-jitsu, or dirty fighting in the school yard. Again, none of which can be predicted since little David unexpectedly slew big Goliath.

Now that a simple, but important, understanding of the martial arts have been established, Judo most definately falls in the realm of a martial art, an unpredictable combative or warlike practice.

The purpose of studying martial arts is to increase the likelihood of victory. Because it is not a science with a predictable outcome, the serious study of the martial arts, whether at the Kodokan or at West Point, will increase the probability of victory in your favor - but does not guarantee a victory.

There are several translations of 'jutsu' and 'do' from Japanese to English (like O.K. is translated several different ways). Jutsu can mean 'study of' and do can mean 'way of'. Jutsu means studying to hurt, kill, or maim; Do means studying to practice hurting, killing, or maiming without really doing it. Kenjutsu uses real swords, Kendo uses bamboo swords; ju-jitsu really breaks arms and legs, ju-do does not really break arms or legs.

The samurai class were being outlawed, along with their killer martial arts, in Dr. Kano's time of the Meiji Restoration (1868-1912). The Emporer's edicts forbade the samurai arts of ju-jitsu. So many ju-jitsu practitioners, including Jigoro Kano, obeyed the law by modifying ju-jitsu into something softer, for Jigoro Kano he developed ju-jitsu into the more humane ju-do. The martial arts were saved from extinction in Japan by their modification into 'do'! (Kendo; Aikido, Kyudo, etc.).

Ju-do is a martial art. Like a professional boxer wearing 32 ounce mitts can still knock you out, one can still defend themselves with the art of judo! But judo was rendered humane in comparison to ju-jutsu. And like jujutsu, judo was never practiced as a sport, not even in Japan. A method for these martial arts to prove their techniques under near combat conditions was necessary, and that method was called a _shiai._

A shiai is simply a method of testing your judo technique as close to actual combat conditions that the law allows. And that is it. Judo is not a sport and has never been one.

The western world, through the Olympics, is trying to twist and mangle judo from its Japanese and Taoist viewpoint into an empircal and predictable sport stripped of all its educational and metaphysical basis. The Olympics are hurting judo severely. 




			
				bignick said:
			
		

> well...if we use the word bujutsu...which is often used as martial arts...first off..
> 
> jutsu - as far as i know is art, technique...this is of cours differentiated by -do which is way
> 
> bu - we'll just keep as martial
> 
> as for martial...judo was not developed with the purpose of warfare or the military in mind...
> 
> as for art - kano deliberately called it judo...not jujutsu...because judo was more than just a strict art or techniques of combat...it was a way of life...therefore juDO instead of juJUTSU
> 
> that being the strictest definition of bujutsu or martial arts...it's pretty easy to see judo is not a martial art...


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## bignick

i'll concede the use of the word art...but you completely ignored the _martial_ in martial arts...judo was never developed or intended for military use...other arts...like jujutsu and tae kwon do were developed for the military

*mar·tial* 

 ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) *Pronunciation Key* (mär
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





sh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l)
_adj._

Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
you may make an argument about #3 but there is judo doesn't fit with either of other two...1 out of 3 doesn't cut it...

the fact that judo is taught to some militaries around the world today doesn't help your argument either because, according to you, we are discussing the original intent of judo and it was most definitely not related to the military of japan in any way...which is the only way it could be martial under the strictest sense of the word



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> There are several translations of 'jutsu' and 'do' from Japanese to English (like O.K. is translated several different ways). Jutsu can mean 'study of' and do can mean 'way of'. Jutsu means studying to hurt, kill, or maim; Do means studying to practice hurting, killing, or maiming without really doing it. Kenjutsu uses real swords, Kendo uses bamboo swords; ju-jitsu really breaks arms and legs, ju-do does not really break arms or legs.


studying to hurt kill and maim???

Ju means gentle, flexible, yielding....jujutsu...the art of gentleness, yielding and so forth doesn't even comes close to translating as you describe it...i practice jujitsu and i've never broken any one's arm in my life...and there's nothing to say that a judo lock can't break an arm...honestly...this explanation makes no sense to me whatsoever....





			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> A shiai is simply a method of testing your judo technique as close to actual combat conditions that the law allows. And that is it. Judo is not a sport and has never been one.


as close to actual combat conditions...what about the lack of strikes, wrist locks, leg locks and so on...how come these aren't practiced in shiai then...because they're certainly in traditional judo....

they are banned from competition....dare i say it to make them safer and more sporting...the same reason a boxer wears his gloves...


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> i'll concede the use of the word art...but you completely ignored the _martial_ in martial arts...judo was never developed or intended for military use...other arts...like jujutsu and tae kwon do were developed for the military
> 
> *mar·tial*
> 
> ([font=verdana, sans-serif] P [/font]) *Pronunciation Key* (mär
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> sh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> l)
> _adj._
> 
> Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
> Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
> Characteristic of or befitting a warrior.
> you may make an argument about #3 but there is judo doesn't fit with either of other two...1 out of 3 doesn't cut it...
> 
> the fact that judo is taught to some militaries around the world today doesn't help your argument either because, according to you, we are discussing the original intent of judo and it was most definitely not related to the military of japan in any way...which is the only way it could be martial under the strictest sense of the word
> 
> studying to hurt kill and maim???
> 
> Ju means gentle, flexible, yielding....jujutsu...the art of gentleness, yielding and so forth doesn't even comes close to translating as you describe it...i practice jujitsu and i've never broken any one's arm in my life...and there's nothing to say that a judo lock can't break an arm...honestly...this explanation makes no sense to me whatsoever....
> 
> 
> 
> as close to actual combat conditions...what about the lack of strikes, wrist locks, leg locks and so on...how come these aren't practiced in shiai then...because they're certainly in traditional judo....
> 
> they are banned from competition....dare i say it to make them safer and more sporting...the same reason a boxer wears his gloves...


Yes, judo is as martial as boxing or wrestling. One of the distinguishing features of the Eastern martial arts, as opposed to the Western martial arts, is the difference between a 'do' and a 'jutsu'.

And as I clearly wrote, there are several translations of 'jutsu' into English, and to practive Ken-jutsu is to cut with a real sword and to practive Ken-do is to strike with a bamboo sword. The art of gentleness is, again, just one translation of jutsu!

There is no randori (free practice) in ken-jitsu for obvious reasons, you don't want to hurt, kill, or maim your practice partner, all ken-jitsu training had been confined to kata.  But in Ken-do, randori is possible, and you can practice a limited amount of ken-jutsu techniques in Ken-do.  The same thing can be said of Ju-jitsu, there is really no randori in ju-jitsu, the techniques are too dangerous, but Dr. Kano was able to incorporate randori in his modification of ju-jitsu into ju-do, that was one of Kano Sensei's great innovations.

Judo is definately a martial art, and not a sport, in the strictest definition of the word.  The martial arts are not confined to the military.  Anybody who has never been in the military and has defended himself in a street fight using karate or ju-jutsu or boxing or judo, has used a martial art.  Martial means warlike or combative, and the study of the martial arts is not confined to either military academies or dojos, and can be learned on the street in fights.

You said you were practicing ju-jutsu but have never broken anyone's arm, yet that is exactly what you are training to do in jujutsu, and less so in judo.  You are learning to break an arm or a leg or to maim someone in your own self-defense, it just appears you haven't put theory into practice yet.

The reason a boxer wears gloves is because bare-knuckle boxing was outlawed a hundred years ago, and dueling was outlawed a hundred and fifty years ago.  Which is similar to what happened in Japan from 1868 - 1912, sword dueling and unarmed jujitsu fights were outlawed by emporer Meiji, and just as the bare-knuckle boxer of the 1800s in this country had to don mitts, in Japan ju-jutsu had to become ju-do.  And a judo shiai is as close to actual combat as the law allows, just as a professional boxing match is as close to an actual fist fight as the law allows. (Don't forget, Governor McCain outlawed those mixed martial arts matches out in Arizona or Nevada for getting too realistic, i.e. serious injury occurances).

Again, if you sift through the papers published by Dr. Jigoro Kano regarding his judo, he never developed it as a sport, not ever!  A means of physical education yes, a sport - definately not.  Judo fits all the requirements of a martial art, and merely resembles a sport.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> And as I clearly wrote, there are several translations of 'jutsu' into English, and to practive Ken-jutsu is to cut with a real sword and to practive Ken-do is to strike with a bamboo sword. The art of gentleness is, again, just one translation of jutsu!


jutsu has nothing to do with gentleness...that's the JU in JUjutsu...and JUdo...


----------



## bignick

:-offtopic



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> You said you were practicing ju-jutsu but have never broken anyone's arm, yet that is exactly what you are training to do in jujutsu


We are getting really far from the track you started on...but thanks to my jujitsu i feel much more able to defend myself without having to hurt someone...using taekwondo the only way i can defend myself very well...that is the art which i am most proficient in...but to do so i have to use strikes and kicks that will seriously hurt someone...because you can't tap someone with your foot and expect them to stop...you have to hit them with force...

using judo...i'd be most likely to throw someone...throwing someone without proper falling skills is very dangerous since some judo throws have the same impact as falling from a two story building...

using jujitsu i can apply a number of wristlocks, armbars, pressure points...etc to try to gain pain compliance from the attacker...without actually hurting them...it's still an option but it doesn't have to go that far

studying jujitsu has made much less dangerous to opponents in a self defense situation...jujitsu isn't studying to break peoples arms and kill them


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> :-offtopic
> 
> 
> We are getting really far from the track you started on...but thanks to my jujitsu i feel much more able to defend myself without having to hurt someone...using taekwondo the only way i can defend myself very well...that is the art which i am most proficient in...but to do so i have to use strikes and kicks that will seriously hurt someone...because you can't tap someone with your foot and expect them to stop...you have to hit them with force...
> 
> using judo...i'd be most likely to throw someone...throwing someone without proper falling skills is very dangerous since some judo throws have the same impact as falling from a two story building...
> 
> using jujitsu i can apply a number of wristlocks, armbars, pressure points...etc to try to gain pain compliance from the attacker...without actually hurting them...it's still an option but it doesn't have to go that far
> 
> studying jujitsu has made much less dangerous to opponents in a self defense situation...jujitsu isn't studying to break peoples arms and kill them


Ooops, you have gotten off track from the topic by over-analyzing one sentence fragment in my judo is a martial art not sport argument.

So could you put this thread back on topic?


----------



## bignick

this has long since stopped being a fruitful area of discussion same goes for the explanation in the blue gi thread...it was nice to talk some judo...but unless something worthwhile comes up...i don't think this is worth discussing anymore


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Science uses the scientific method: Observation, hypothesis, experimentation, and conclusion which produces consistant and predictable results. The beauty and strength of science is that it has _reproducible _results. Science produces results that are consistant, predictable, and can be reproduced at will anywhere on the planet. Chemistry and physics are sciences, but not sociology, because sociology does not produce consistant and predictable results, sociology is an art.


*WRONG.  *


----------



## jukado1

J. Kano took what he felt were the best, most effective techniques and principles from the jiu jitsu's of his day and combined and modified them to create what he felt was a superior system that he called judo,  He felt that the jiu jitsu's were just fighting tricks with no system to them,  but when he developed judo there were two separate arts, one for combat/fighting and one for self improvement/sport, while most judo schools now teach the sport/art of judo do not underestimate the fighting style of judo, judo includes atami waza/karate, jiu jitsu/aikido/grappeling.


----------



## Kane

I honestly think judo is a much more effective Martial Art than weak karate. No offense or anything, but I see much more effective techniques for a street fight in judo than in karate.

I've done both judo and ju jistu. The thing is, even though judo has a lot of dangerous techniques taken out it you still practice at full force which is equally as effective as ju jitsu.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Kane said:
			
		

> I honestly think judo is a much more effective Martial Art than weak karate. No offense or anything, but I see much more effective techniques for a street fight in judo than in karate.
> 
> I've done both judo and ju jistu. The thing is, even though judo has a lot of dangerous techniques taken out it you still practice at full force which is equally as effective as ju jitsu.


Hello Kane,

I agree that judo is an effective martial art and can work in a street fight.  I also agree that judo is better than weak karate, but not strong karate.  Do not underestimate karate in any form or style, it is a good to superior self defense system.

My grudge is the term 'sport' karate - which is what?  A reinvention of point fighting in the days of karate champions like Thomas LaPuppet or Tony Tullners?

And don't forget that judo is just watered down ju-jutsu.  Any Japanese fighting style that ends in 'jutsu' should be the ultimate in street fighting, or else its not a jutsu, but a 'do'.  Judo has retained some ju-jutsu techniques in its kata, such as the kime no kata, to make it a practical street defense.  

Yet judo, as is, can be used in a variety of street fighting self-defense situations; another reason why judo is a martial art and not a sport.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Another reason why judo is not a sport can be found in the article: _'On The Importance of Ukemi'_ by Jigoro Kano (http://www.judoinfo.com/ukemi.htm)
where the founding genius explained how spiritual development and human perfection are the goals of judo, not winning medals!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Finally, for me, in combination that Dr. Kano never referred to judo as a sport, this is positive proof that Judo is definately not a sport, was that Japan had sports independent of martial arts:


'Temari' was an ancient Japanese ballgame
http://ww82.tiki.ne.jp/~chu-chu/English/E-rekisi/E-rekisi.htm

'Dakyu' was samurai polo
http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e10/ed10-01.html

and this is an Edo Period ball game
http://www.temarikai.com/history01.htm

So at a time of martial arts, Japan also played sports. The martial arts and sports were obviously differentiated in ancient Japan. So this sums it up in my opinion, JUDO IS NOT A SPORT.

Counter arguments welcomed! Lets clear this up here on martialtalk.com


----------



## Andrew Green

You know, not so long ago, Western sport developed and organized amateur sports emerged.

Some of the main reasons it spread was because it helped develop character in its participants, taught important life skills, raised self-confidence, and was all about developing the person through sport...

Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics. For it to be in the olympics it would have had to have been a sport.

Judo is a sport, blue gi's help out, especially in televised matches.

If you are so against the sport element of Judo, do Jujitsu, or just don't compete.  But all of this is getting silly.

It's very simple, if you don't like the way an organization does things, don't be a part of it.  Others think they got those things right, and those are the people that make up those organizations.

What you are doing is trolling, and it won't win you any supporters.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Oh man, Mr. Skerry sure has a soap box, don't he? I think he should run for office on the "No Blue Gi" ticket, if it wasn't for the fact most everything he types is simply for his satisfaction of typing it, I know I'd vote for him. Well, I mean other then he has refused to verify his judo education outside of the web. I know. I've asked.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mr. Green:





> Some of the main reasons it spread was because it helped develop character in its participants, taught important life skills, raised self-confidence, and was all about developing the person through sport...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Please read Dr. Kano's insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' where he argued the superiority of judo in developing character and the weakness of western sports in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics. For it to be in the olympics it would have had to have been a sport.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Mr. Green, this observation is a _non-sequitur, _your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises and therefore you are simply question begging, i.e. stating that judo is sport simply because it is in the Olympics.
> 
> Could you provide some evidence on 'why' you believe judo is a sport?
> I have provided two sources to support my view that judo is _not _a sport: 1) Dr. Kano never called it such in any of his papers, and 2.) ancient Japan played sports independent of their martial arts practice. It is these two assertions which leads me to believe that judo is not a sport and shouldn't be practiced as one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you are so against the sport element of Judo, do Jujitsu, or just don't compete. But all of this is getting silly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 'Bailing out' is never a solution. Reform or non-comliance is a necessary evil in society, especially when you know something to be wrong, such as the sportification of judo. And intelligent discourse is never silly, logical and coherent arguments are what these forums are all about.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's very simple, if you don't like the way an organization does things, don't be a part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm afraid that is the ultimate solution, not being part of the problem and forming one's own judo club and judo organization.
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> Click to expand...
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Click to expand...


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## Mekugi

My arguement is :

"Judo is a martial art that has sporting tendencies".




			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?


----------



## Andrew Green

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Please read Dr. Kano's insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' where he argued the superiority of judo in developing character and the weakness of western sports in this area.


Wow, what a shocker.... he thought his stuff was better then everyone elses...  Name one company that advertises "Yeah, they're better then us, but come to us anyways"



> Mr. Green, this observation is a _non-sequitur, _your conclusion doesn't follow from the premises and therefore you are simply question begging, i.e. stating that judo is sport simply because it is in the Olympics.


The Olympics is a Sporting event.  It is for top level athletes in different sports to compete.  Judo is a sport.  In the Olympics top level Judo athletes compete against each other.  Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics...  A sporting event...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> The Olympics is a Sporting event. It is for top level athletes in different sports to compete. Judo is a sport. In the Olympics top level Judo athletes compete against each other. Kano wanted Judo in the Olympics... A sporting event...


Stop being so simplistic in your reasoning skills.  There is a concept called 'false validation', just because Dr. Kano managed to include his judo into the western Olympic games does not make judo a sport!

What attributes does judo possess which make you inclined to believe it is a sport?  Despite the fact that its founder never considered it a sport, and that the Japanese had their own sports independent of their martial arts?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> My arguement is :
> 
> "Judo is a martial art that has sporting tendencies".


Hi Mekugi,

I believe this is the approach most hard to argue against.  I agree that judo has elements which can be mistaken as 'sportive', such as the shiai.  A shiai is too easily mistaken for a simple contest, especially by westerners.

It is these psuedo-sport elements of judo which enabled Dr. Kano to get judo accepted into the Olympics.  It seems judo can 'pass' as a sport, though, in my humble opinion, it is a martial art.

Thank you Mekugi.


----------



## Andrew Green

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Stop being so simplistic in your reasoning skills. There is a concept called 'false validation', just because Dr. Kano managed to include his judo into the western Olympic games does not make judo a sport!


Me?  Perhaps a look in the mirror...



> What attributes does judo possess which make you inclined to believe it is a sport? Despite the fact that its founder never considered it a sport, and that the Japanese had their own sports independent of their martial arts?


You want a 2000 word essay on the neccessary and suffiecient conditions for sport?

Guess I could, but why bother...

Let's try this:  What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?


----------



## Mekugi

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Let's try this: What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?


I would say: What sporting differences does Greco-Roman wrestling have when compared to judo? Jackets and rules. 
Speaking of wrestling, there is "Cornish Jacket-Wrestling", which is something like judo. On the other side of the spectrum you have "Yagli Gures" from Turkey, where they oil their bodies heavily and wear funny looking leather pants called Kispet.

To me, Greco-Roman or any variant of wrestling _is_ a martial art.


----------



## Andrew Green

Mekugi said:
			
		

> I would say: What sporting differences does Greco-Roman wrestling have when compared to judo? Jackets and rules.


Exactly... 

Uniform and rules.  that's really about it.  They are very similar sports.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

> You want a 2000 word essay on the neccessary and suffiecient conditions for sport?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Not a 2000 word essay, but just a reason why you think judo contains the necessary elements to be considered a sport?  And again, in light of the fact that the founder never called his judo a sport, and that the Japanese played sports independent of their practice of martial arts.
> 
> The Temari ball is still in your court on this one Mr. Green.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Guess I could, but why bother...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One interpretation: Because you don't know?
> 
> Let's try this: What elements does Greco-Roman wrestling posses that make it a sport that Judo does not?
> 
> 
> 
> The lack of kata for one.   The founder of judo made it clear that Judo is not a sport.  What did the founder of Roman-Greco wrestling have to say?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


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## someguy

So kata makes an martial art.
WEll I guess nothing european is a martial art.


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## Patrick Skerry

someguy said:
			
		

> So kata makes an martial art.
> WEll I guess nothing european is a martial art.


That's correct, a European waltz is not a martial art (just kidding, a waltz is really a martial art).

The lack of kata is only one element which designates a sport, vs. a martial art.

Roman-Greco wrestling has been reduced to a combat sport, such as boxing, track & field (javelin throw, hammer toss, discus, relay race, etc. etc.), and free style wrestling.  The emphasis is on the word 'reduced'.  Dr. Kano, as stated in all his papers on judo, never considered judo a sport.  Jiu-jutsu may have been 'reduced' to judo, but judo remains a martial art, not a sport.  Why?  Again, because Japan had sports independent of its martial arts.


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## bignick

i don't know how the fact that country had sports proves that judo isn't a sport..what about sumo...that is a form of wrestling and a japanese martial art that now is done for the entertainment of the masses


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## bignick

by the way...kata does not make a martial art...lot's of japanese cultural activities use kata's such as the tea ceremony


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## Andrew Green

Ok... so let me get this straight...

Greco-roman wrestling is a sport.

Judo isn't a sport because it has kata.

huh?

So basically it is a sport, with a few other things that make it not a sport...

And nothing western can be a martial art...  because there is no kata.

So if I took Greco-roman wrestling, made up some kata, I could say it is no longer a sport.

And you talk about an argument being _non-sequitur...._


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## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Ok... so let me get this straight...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And you talk about an argument being _non-sequitur...._
> 
> 
> 
> No, I talk about _your _arguments being 'non-sequitur'!
Click to expand...


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> i don't know how the fact that country had sports proves that judo isn't a sport..what about sumo...that is a form of wrestling and a japanese martial art that now is done for the entertainment of the masses


Hi Nick, 

It is not that a country has sports, it is that Japan had sports alongside martial arts which supports the argument that judo is not a sport.

Both sport 'and' martial arts co-existed in ancient Japan as two separate entities. The martial arts were never considered a sport in Japan, and judo is a budo, a martial art. And again, Dr. Kano did not consider either judo or ju-jutsu to be sports! Getting judo into the Olympics was a real coup for Dr. Kano, because it got judo transported internationally. But it did not make judo a peer with hockey or baseball or gymnastics, and Dr. Kano made this extremely clear in his insightful paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education'.


----------



## Baytor




----------



## bignick

yes...they're being well fed...wouldn't want one to go hungry


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## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

>


THE FACE OF SPORT JUDO!


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## Andrew Green

Not quite what he meant


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Not quiet what he meant


Not a quiet image.


----------



## Mekugi

What are these then?

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/techniquehome.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f1.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f22.html

http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f24.html



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> The lack of kata is only one element which designates a sport, vs. a martial art.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> What are these then?
> 
> http://www.bobbydouglas.com/techniquehome.html
> 
> http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f1.html
> 
> http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f22.html
> 
> http://www.bobbydouglas.com/wrestlingtechpages/f24.html


Well first of all these are not kata.

Second of all these are 'take downs' and not throws.

Third of all, take downs are not worth a point in a judo tournament (or at least they never used to be).

Judo has stringent requirements of a throw, 1. balance, 2. Entry, and 3. Execution.  In judo, the individual who is thrown must land on his back with speed, power and control from the thrower.  Free style wrestling has 'take downs', even the suplex doesn't fit the requirements of a throw in judo.

But I'm not sure what you were asking for in the context of the question?


----------



## Feisty Mouse

I guess it would be a silly question, Patrick, to ask you if you cross-train or are engaged in any sports.


----------



## bignick

what about the fireman's carry in wrestling...aka kata guruma in judo..which i understand kano picked up from watching western wrestling


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## Andrew Green

umm.. a lot of the throws in Judo are done in wrestling as well...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> I guess it would be a silly question, Patrick, to ask you if you cross-train or are engaged in any sports.


I jog, and have done free-style wrestling in high school.  I don't care for sports very much so I stick to the martial arts.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> what about the fireman's carry in wrestling...aka kata guruma in judo..which i understand kano picked up from watching western wrestling


Kata-guruma and the fireman's carry only look alike, in application they are very different.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> umm.. a lot of the throws in Judo are done in wrestling as well...


Like what for instance?  The so called 'Jap whizzer' (ippon seoinage?).  I'm not aware of any judo type throws in free style wrestling.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Kata-guruma and the fireman's carry only look alike, in application they are very different.


and how is this?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> and how is this?


The kata-guruma, shoulder wheel, is performed standing up.  Review your nage no kata.  

The fireman's carry is performed on the knees and the opponent is rolled over, not dropped from standing height as in kata guruma.

They are not identical techniques.  Dr. Kano spontaneously used kata guruma in one of his matches against a bigger opponent.  He wasn't influenced by western wrestling for this technique.


----------



## bignick

there are kneeling versions of kata guruma as well

from Mifune's Canon of Judo:

concerning Kata Guruma- "In competitions, you will be half-thrown, or be forced onto your knees, while still holding the opponents sleeve..."

hmmm...sounds a lot like a wrestling fireman's carry...


----------



## bignick

from Vladimir Putin's Judo: History, Theory, Practice

"One variation of this techniqe is called the 'knee wheel,' in which tori, after grabbing and throwing uke off balance, reaches for the same thigh from inside with his free hand and drops to his knees.  Then, using his arms to lower uke's head and lift his legs, tori throws uke on his back."

sounds a lot like a fireman's carry too...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> there are kneeling versions of kata guruma as well
> 
> from Mifune's Canon of Judo:
> 
> concerning Kata Guruma- "In competitions, you will be half-thrown, or be forced onto your knees, while still holding the opponents sleeve..."
> 
> hmmm...sounds a lot like a wrestling fireman's carry...


Dr. Kano openly criticized Mifune's judo.


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## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Dr. Kano openly criticized Mifune's judo.


oh yes...i forgot...kano promoted him to 10th dan because he was a bad judoka...come on man...give it up


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## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> oh yes...i forgot...kano promoted him to 10th dan because he was a bad judoka...come on man...give it up


Stop generalizing for an answer, Dr. Kano was a critic of Mifune's judo.


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## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Dr. Kano was a critic of Mifune's judo.


and this of course is specifically cited evidence...which you always ask for...and which i just provided in the last two posts...


----------



## Andrew Green

bignick said:
			
		

> and this of course is specifically cited evidence...which you always ask for...and which i just provided in the last two posts...


You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> from Vladimir Putin's Judo: History, Theory, Practice
> 
> "One variation of this techniqe is called the 'knee wheel,' in which tori, after grabbing and throwing uke off balance, reaches for the same thigh from inside with his free hand and drops to his knees. Then, using his arms to lower uke's head and lift his legs, tori throws uke on his back."
> 
> sounds a lot like a fireman's carry too...


Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.


----------



## bignick

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...


hey...what can i say...i'm bored...running my head into a brick wall seems as entertaining as anything else


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.


at least i have respected sources...let's see your source for Kano's criticism of Mifune's judo...


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## Andrew Green

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique.


So Judo died with Kano and no one else is allowed to change or modify anything?

Sorry, but no...

And on wrestling throws, perhaps you should study some wrestling.

Nick -> Yeah, playing with trolls can be good entertainment once and a while


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> You could ressurect Kano from the grave to speak against him and he wouldn't give in...


Unnecessary to wake the dead since Dr. Kano left behind copious documents and papers for the hopologist to research.


----------



## bignick

:-offtopic

by the way i'd like to let everyone else know about my new side business to fund my martial arts activities...i'll leading safari's/hunting expeditions...we'll be going mostly after trolls, since hunting season on them just opened...but maybe get some other game as oppurtunity arises...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So Judo died with Kano and no one else is allowed to change or modify anything?
> 
> Sorry, but no...
> 
> And on wrestling throws, perhaps you should study some wrestling.
> 
> Nick -> Yeah, playing with trolls can be good entertainment once and a while


Judo began with Dr. Kano, but it might end with the Olympic committee mangling it into a sport.


----------



## bignick

i wll ask very politely again what is your source for Kano's criticism of Mifune's judo?  I would be very interested to hear about it...it would be good to have an insight like that...rather than the canned answers you spit out whenever you don't want to answer a question


----------



## Andrew Green

Yes,  please point out a source written by Kano stating this.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> What is your argument whether judo is a sport or a martial art?


So far it appears all the arguments point to judo being a martial art, and not a sport.


----------



## bignick

another canned answer...everybody knows what you're doing...just give it up...


----------



## Andrew Green

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> So far it appears all the arguments point to judo being a martial art, and not a sport.


lol - Ok... if you say so...

anyways, please answer the question


----------



## Mekugi

OK how about this angle:  
How are those techniques any different from the kata found in preliminary Kodokan Judo? 

Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?

How is it that wrestling can trace itself back to Western military practices, but it isn't a martial art? Judo by itself, with regards to it's history alone (and not the history that it founded itself on), does not extend beyond being practiced by any military body past the 1900's. Greco-roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan Judo. The Turkish Wrestling, for instance, goes back to the 1640's and was founded by the military as well. 




			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Well first of all these are not kata.
> 
> Second of all these are 'take downs' and not throws.
> 
> Third of all, take downs are not worth a point in a judo tournament (or at least they never used to be).
> 
> Judo has stringent requirements of a throw, 1. balance, 2. Entry, and 3. Execution. In judo, the individual who is thrown must land on his back with speed, power and control from the thrower. Free style wrestling has 'take downs', even the suplex doesn't fit the requirements of a throw in judo.
> 
> But I'm not sure what you were asking for in the context of the question?


----------



## Baytor

bignick said:
			
		

> :-offtopic
> 
> by the way i'd like to let everyone else know about my new side business to fund my martial arts activities...i'll leading safari's/hunting expeditions...we'll be going mostly after trolls, since hunting season on them just opened...but maybe get some other game as oppurtunity arises...


whoo hoo!:mp5: 
Since the AWB is about to sunset, the hunting can get really fun!
I know I know...stay on topic


----------



## Hollywood1340

Oh, now he's getting into the witty one liners "Use a primary source on kata-guruma, Dr. Kano himself, not other interpretations of his technique." Deep dude, deep. Oh yes, I belive that is one drink as well! (See the Golden Score Thread) 
http://www.themartialist.com/pecom/fieldguidetotrolls.htm


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> OK how about this angle:
> How are those techniques any different from the kata found in preliminary Kodokan Judo?
> 
> Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?
> 
> How is it that wrestling can trace itself back to Western military practices, but it isn't a martial art? Judo by itself, with regards to it's history alone (and not the history that it founded itself on), does not extend beyond being practiced by any military body past the 1900's. Greco-roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan Judo. The Turkish Wrestling, for instance, goes back to the 1640's and was founded by the military as well.


Hi Mekugi,

Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).

The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata.  Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata.  There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest.  Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [_SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya_] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.

Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely.  _There is no 'kata' existing within western combat sports such as boxing or wrestling._

Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo.  Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference.  Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn. 

Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.

My response:  I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla!  There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling.  If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
As  I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'.  Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union.  The Kodokan reluctantly included a _modification_ of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.

Regarding Lineage:

The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it.  Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'.  The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo!  Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact.  It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here!  There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan.  There is no equivalent for wrestling.

Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event.  Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!

You mentioned that _"Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo".  _Is there a hidden point here?  This observation is a bit ambiguous.  Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years - so what is it you are asking?  Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other.  Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?
The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.

And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882?  Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.

As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu.  And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.

All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.

Yours in judo.


----------



## bignick

The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.

When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree  particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views  Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."

When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth.

When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.


----------



## Feisty Mouse

bignick - quick, bag 'im!  I always wanted to study one of those philotrolls in the lab!  SO fascinating.  So mysterious and incomprehensible.  With those weird furry little hides.  Hmmmmm....!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> bignick - quick, bag 'im! I always wanted to study one of those philotrolls in the lab! SO fascinating. So mysterious and incomprehensible. With those weird furry little hides. Hmmmmm....!


So Feisty, do you think there is a conflict in the 'repechage' system with the Golden Score in judo, or that repechage works equally well with the Golden Score, as opposed to round robin or the bad point system?


----------



## bignick

dang it slipped away again...

that's the problem...they're endangered species, so i can't just kill 'em....they have to be captured alive for study


----------



## Hollywood1340

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> So Feisty, do you think there is a conflict in the 'repechage' system with the Golden Score in judo, or that repechage works equally well with the Golden Score, as opposed to round robin or the bad point system?



Careful now mates. As you can see the little buggah is now trying to redirect ow efforts to recapture 'im. That tactic you see theh is known as bein the biggah person. Little does he know it won't work. We got his numbah!


----------



## Andrew Green

So Juijitsu isn't a martial art because we don't know who started it... no that can't be what you are trying to say....

Wrestling isn't a martial art because it's an olympic event... no that can't be it either...

But how about Catch then?  is that a martial art?  How about Boxing?  what about boxing?  we can document who founded modern boxing?  How about under the LPR, was that a martial art?  Fencing?  

"it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented,"

Never trained in wrestling then have you...?


----------



## bignick

it's about time we cross the streams


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So Juijitsu isn't a martial art because we don't know who started it... no that can't be what you are trying to say....
> 
> Wrestling isn't a martial art because it's an olympic event... no that can't be it either...
> 
> But how about Catch then? is that a martial art? How about Boxing? what about boxing? we can document who founded modern boxing? How about under the LPR, was that a martial art? Fencing?
> 
> "it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented,"
> 
> Never trained in wrestling then have you...?


Hi Andy,

There is a differece between a game, a sport, and a martial art, a contest, and physical fitness.  Jumping jacks is physical fitness, can be turned into a contest, but is not a sport.
A game can have contests, but is not a sport or physical fitness.
A martial art can contain a contest, but is neither a game nor a sport, but definately contains physical fitness.
Ju-jutsu is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have physical fitness, and it does have contests.
Judo is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
Wrestling is a sport, it is not a game, it does have contests, it does have physical fitness, but it is not judo.
Karate is not a game, it is not a sport, it is a martial art, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
A waltz is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does contain a minimum of physical fitness.
So, therefore, judo is not a sport!


----------



## Hollywood1340

bignick said:
			
		

> it's about time we cross the streams



Try to imagine all life as you know it stopping instantaneoulsy and every molecule in your body exploding at the speed of light.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Andy,
> 
> There is a differece between a game, a sport, and a martial art, a contest, and physical fitness.  Jumping jacks is physical fitness, can be turned into a contest, but is not a sport.
> A game can have contests, but is not a sport or physical fitness.
> A martial art can contain a contest, but is neither a game nor a sport, but definately contains physical fitness.
> Ju-jutsu is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have physical fitness, and it does have contests.
> Judo is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
> Wrestling is a sport, it is not a game, it does have contests, it does have physical fitness, but it is not judo.
> Karate is not a game, it is not a sport, it is a martial art, it does have contests, and it does have physical fitness.
> A waltz is not a game, it is not a sport, it does have contests, and it does contain a minimum of physical fitness.
> So, therefore, judo is not a sport!



Wow, thats some powerful logic "Patrick"! I'm so glad we have a judo god on the board!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Wow, thats some powerful logic "Patrick"! I'm so glad we have a judo god on the board!


It is not a syllogism, but a sorite.

So judo is not a sport because: 1) Dr. Kano never referred to it as a sport nor did he treat it as such; and, 2.) ancient Japan practiced sports totally independently of its martial arts.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Oh, drinks! He put in the sport department of Tokyo University. HE did. Along with Soccer, baseball and gymnastics. Miss that did you?


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> *It is not a syllogism, but a sorite.(edit- means we're wrong)*
> 
> So *judo is not a sport* because: 1) *Dr. Kano* never referred to it as a sport nor did he treat it as such; and, 2.) ancient Japan practiced sports totally independently of its martial arts.


:drinkbeer

i'm about ready to pass out


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> :drinkbeer
> 
> i'm about ready to pass out


So again, if had organized sports, and competed in them independent of its martial arts, that leads me to conclude that the martial arts, which includes judo, are not sports - therefore, judo is not a sport!


----------



## bignick

face it...i also lament about the direction judo takes in today's world...but for the majority of competitions and competitors...judo has become a sport...whether you like it or not...myself, my instructors and the rest of my judo club had a very indepth discussion about this subject last night....

i was gonna post some of their thoughts....but why bring intelligence to this thread now?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> face it...i also lament about the direction judo takes in today's world...but for the majority of competitions and competitors...judo has become a sport...whether you like it or not...myself, my instructors and the rest of my judo club had a very indepth discussion about this subject last night....
> 
> i was gonna post some of their thoughts....but why bring intelligence to this thread now?


Because you fear the truth?  

Consider what you just typed - "judo has become a sport...whether you like it or not..." is so very fatalistic that it cannot be valid.  Always challenge the _status quo!_

Judo has not become a sport yet!  It is in the process of becoming one, and we can disrupt that process by simple non-compliance - just like the KANO SOCIETY, just the the KODOKAN, and just like the ALL JAPAN JUDO ASSOCIATION, judoka do not have to mindlessly conform to the dictates of the Olympic Committee or the International Judo Federation.  That is all I've been pointing out.  Very simple non-compliance.


----------



## Baytor

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> It is not a syllogism, but a sorite.
> 
> So judo is not a sport because: 1) Dr. Kano never referred to it as a sport nor did he treat it as such; and, 2.) ancient Japan practiced sports totally independently of its martial arts.


Kano never used the internet.  Why do you?  I mean, if Kano didn't say it, it must be impure or something.  I know I feel dirty just typing on this naughty newfangled keyboard.


----------



## bignick

not wearing a blue gi and sidestepping questions are not the type of non-compliance that are going to save judo...the problem it faces deal with players attitudes toward shiai and their focus of training


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Kano never used the internet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That is true.
Click to expand...


----------



## Hollywood1340

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> So again, if had organized sports, and competed in them independent of its martial arts, that leads me to conclude that the martial arts, which includes judo, are not sports - therefore, judo is not a sport!



Or maybe judo was a sport to begin with? Why did kano include it? 

Patrick, you started this thread with your mind made up. If your mind is made up, what is the point of this thread?

What is your judo education and who are your judo instructors?


----------



## Feisty Mouse

> Because you fear the truth?


 Oh, dude - BRING IT!

And if you would be so kind to answer Hollywood's questions, although I have a feeling you will not....


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> Or maybe judo was a sport to begin with? Why did kano include it?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You are aware that judo was derived from ju-jutsu, a martial art?  Judo was clearly stated by Dr. Kano in his paper: 'The Contribution of Judo to Education', that judo was a form of physical education, not a sport!  And since Japan practiced its own indiginous sports independent of its martial arts, Dr. Kano surely knew the difference.
> 
> I feel that Dr. Kano strove to include his judo into the Olympics to promulgate his creation worldwide.  The simple inclusion of judo as an Olympic event does not automatically turn a martial art into a sport.
Click to expand...


----------



## Baytor

Patrick,

If you honestly think there is a problem with Judo, then why don't you do something to fix it.  There are organizations like www.Bullshido.com who make it their purpose to fight bs in the martial arts.  The guys at bullshido are great at finding frauds and fakes.


----------



## Baytor

I am a bad person.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Patrick,
> 
> If you honestly think there is a problem with Judo, then why don't you do something to fix it. There are organizations like www.Bullshido.com who make it their purpose to fight bs in the martial arts. The guys at bullshido are great at finding frauds and fakes.


Judo is neither a sport nor a fraud.  Judo is the real deal.


----------



## Baytor

I'm not saying Judo is a fraud.  But if you feel that organizations within the Judo community are frauds or not keeping with the ideals of Judo, maybe you would want to get some advice from a group that is known for dealing with frauds.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Because frankly for the most part...we..really don't care to have "Disscussions" when there is nothing to discuss. I'm just increasing my post count and having fun. What have you accomplished today? Hmm...I wonder if I can use the qouting of a paper in the drinking game? Hmmm...


----------



## bignick

Judo is the real deal...but your not helping it's image much

and yes he said kano so drink up :drinkbeer


----------



## Andrew Green

bignick said:
			
		

> Judo is the real deal...but your not helping it's image much
> 
> and yes he said kano so drink up :drinkbeer


methingins nooffffffusss iss.....err... I meenn isdat wes all googeet... go get stomakkk pump *hic* nooww...


----------



## Mekugi

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Mekugi,
> 
> Dr. Jigoro Kano designated that judo consist of: 80% randori; 17% kata; and 3% shiai, with the admonishment that "contest should not be too emphasized". (source: 'What Is Rank?' by Donn F. Draeger; and, 'The Contribution of Judo to Education' by Dr.Jigoro Kano).


Note one instance where Mr. Draeger OR Mr. Kano say that wrestling is not a martial art. Mr. Kano does say boxing and wrestling are military arts: 


> *from: The Contribution of Judo to Education* by Jigoro Kano:
> "This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world."





> The wrestling techniques demonstrated in those video clips would be equivalent to 'uchi-komi' in judo, not kata.


Why? Uchikomi is a training exercise, not a technique. Those on Bobby Douglas' site are techniques, not "training excercises" unless you are impling that wrestling has no techniques. Moot. 



> Judoka practice their nage-waza and katame-waza independent of kata.


Evidently you haven't seen Judo: Formal Techniques by Mr. Draeger. I met one of the people in those photos, he lives in Vancouver B.C. Great guy. 



> There is 'zero' connection between Dr. Kano's Kodokan judo in 1882 and free-style wrestling, if that is what you're trying to suggest.


Read Father of Judo by Brian N. Watson. It suggests something a little different. As a matter of fact, I have heard the argument that Mr. Kano wanted to make the Japanese Jujutsu as "scientific" likw what he found in wrestling, and was greatly influenced by the sporting ideal. I think a great amount of was is being talked about were "ball sports" and gymnastics, notwrestling and boxing. Go figure.


> *from: The Contribution of Judo to Education* by Jigoro Kano:
> "Taking athletics as a whole, I cannot help thinking that they are not the ideal form of physical education, because every movement is not chosen for all around development of the body but for attaining some other definite object. And furthermore, as we generally require special equipment and sometimes quite a number of persons to participate in them, athletics are fitted as a training for select groups of persons and not as the means of improving the physical condition of a whole nation.
> This holds true with boxing, wrestling, and different kinds of military exercises practiced all over the world. Then people may ask, "Are not gymnastics [calisthenics] an ideal form of national physical training?" To this I answer that they are an ideal form of physical education from their being contrived for all-round development of the body, and not necessarily requiring special equipment and participants. But gymnastics are lacking in very important things essential to the physical education of a whole nation. The defects are:
> 
> Different gymnastics movements have no meaning and naturally are devoid of interest.
> No secondary benefit is derived from their training.
> Attainment of "skill" (using the word "skill" in a special sense) cannot be sought for or acquired in gymnastics as in some other exercises."







> Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [_SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya_] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.[\quote]
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kata contains the baseline of pure technique which represents that particular martial art; kata enables a proponent to give a dignified demonstration of the style to the unitiated; kata allows the aged to continue to practice that style; kata allows a good work out while remaining conscious of good technique; kata allows the practice of dangerous techniques safely.
> 
> 
> 
> Ever seen the book "Complete Highschool Wrestling"? It as the "baseline for pure technique" in a step by step form, or kata. Bobby Douglas teaches the same thing in showing people technique. Wrestling is different, but just as much a martial art as Kodokan Judo. Define the word "Martial" and then you have the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Those wrestling techniques are similar but, in actual practice, are quite different from the 'kosen' techniques of late 19th to early 20th century judo. Please examine the excellent manual: 'The Complete Kano Jiu-Jitsu (c. 1906) by H. I. Hancock, for historical reference. Kosen judo is "school boy judo" taught to elementary students in Japan at the turn of the century, because newaza was considered easy to learn.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Kosen means "high school" but not in the sense of like, American highschools- this is a major mistake for western readers. They are (and were) schools for specialized vocations. Colleges were Kosen Schools too, such as Kyoto University, so you're a little off base from the start. The reason that newaza became popular at the Kosen Schools was because they found that shiai without weight limits (which is what that was all about, not because it was "easy") it was almost impossible to beat a larger person with a throw. So, they looked to newaza to beat people or pull a draw. Back then, competitions were done much like wrestling meets without weight limits (again), where groups would win and not individuals. This was more in tune with the Japanese way of thinking, so it was of course, first for the group. Mr. Hancock has his history wrong, in this case. I have visited and trained with the newaza dojo in Tokyo and have researched the subject rather completely. You can also check out the Kyoto University website on the subject, which has a complete history.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Your quote: "Furthermore, how do any of them come up short of anything taught in Kodokan Judo, albeit them having different flavor?" regarding free-style wrestling techniques.
> 
> My response: I believe you already answered your own question - different flavor! Like chocolate & vanilla! There is a world of difference between judo and wrestling. If nothing else, it is very obvious that wrestling is strength dominated and judo (& ju-jutsu) are technique oriented, judo emphasizes 'balance' while ju-jutsu emphasizes 'leverage'.
> As I already wrote in a different post, judo has stringent guidlines as to what constitutes a 'throw' in comparison to a mere 'take-down'. Kodokan judo rarely uses take-downs, these wrestling (and Russian Sambo) methods were foisted upon judo during the '72 & '76 Olympics by the Americans and the former Soviet Union. The Kodokan reluctantly included a _modification_ of take-downs within their accepted repetoire of judo techniques in 1982.
> So any free-style wrestling move comes up very short of what is taught and practiced in the Kodokan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So Wrestling is a martial art. Just different, right?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Regarding Lineage:
> 
> The founders of western wrestling no longer exist, nor is there any concrete documentation as to when and where it was invented, or who invented it. Same thing for 'ju-jitsu'.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> HUH? Yeah, people living 300 years ago are usually dead. There is documentation as to when many styles of Jujutsu were invented. What are you talking about?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The origins of both wrestling and ju-jitsu are shrouded in history - but not judo! Judo origninated in 1882 by Dr. Jigoro Kano, that is a fact.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mr. Kano studied Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can tell you when both of these were created and by whom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.[\quote]
> 
> Are you sure what you are writing here? You just contradicted your own logic. Plus, tell me when you went to the Kodokan and asked them "exactly how are you maintaining the integrity of Judo" and you probably get blanks stares. BTW and FYI, the Olympic Judo Committee and world headquarters is in Korea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wrestling is not a martial art simply because it was intentionally reduced to a combat sport as an Olympic event. Judo was never developed as a sport, Dr. Kano made that perfectly clear in several of his papers on judo!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> So, what is this stuff I see on the Olympics? Judo has sporting elements. That's a fact jack. It's also a martial art because it originated from MARTIAL practices. That argument does not, cannot and will not hold any water.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You mentioned that _"Greco-Roman wrestling practice can be traced to the Americas and most of European military entities before the creation of Kodokan judo". _Is there a hidden point here? This observation is a bit ambiguous.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Actually, my observation was objective, not ambiguous- that's why I listed who did what. The point is that MARTIAL is MILITARY. Put two and two together.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kodokan judo was only founded in 1882, Greco-Roman wrestling can trace its lineage back several thousand years
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> No, Greco-roman wrestling cannot trace it's lineage back several thousand years. It's neither Greek nor Roman. Another subject.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so what is it you are asking? Kodokan judo in 1882 and wrestling have nothing to do with each other. Kodokan judo is based on ju-jutsu, not wrestling!?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I am not sure how you came up with the idea that I was saying that Jujutsu was based on European wrestling. That's a rather long stretch. Japanese Wrestling (jujutsu) indigenous to the country, like Sumo.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The unbroken lineage of Greco-Roman wrestling gives it more in common with Japanese Sumo, than judo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> See above.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And again, what does Turkish wrestling in the 1640s, or any wrestling for that matter, have to do with the formation of judo in 1882? Judo was created from ju-jutsu, independent of western wrestling.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> It's wrestling, and has an ancient lineage in the military. It is similar to Greco-Roman wrestling (well, the version we do know, which is really freestyle). It is a martial art.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As you should know, judo was developed primarily from three styles of ju-jitsu: 1. Kito-ryu (to rise and fall) ju-jutsu; 2. Tenshin Shinyo-ryu (School of the Natural Way) ju-jutsu, and 3. Sousuishita-ryu ju-jutsu. And Dr. Kano adopted the term 'judo' from Jinkinshin Judo (1700's) and called his form of ju-jutsu 'Kodokan (Place to study the Way) Judo' to distinguish it from Jinkinshin Judo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> AHEM...Kano did not developed Judo out of three martial arts. Pure fabrication. He developed Kodokan Judo from KITO RYU and TENJIN SHINYO RYU with input from several different ryu at the Butokukai when formulating the "formal technques". Actually, Kano borrowed the term Judo from KITO RYU which changed it's named from Kito Ryu Kumi Uchi to Kito Ryu Judo waaaay back when. All of these things are DOCUMENTED. What you are talking about in # 3 is SOSUISHI RYU or SOSUISHITSU RYU, something I have studied for lets see, 18 years. See my website www.sosuishitsuryu.com.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All this you should already be familiar as a serious judo enthusiast and practitioner.
> 
> Yours in judo.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Umm....you might want to rethink that statement.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## bignick

my, my...looks like we got ourselves another one...what a beautiful creature....crikey!!!


----------



## Andrew Green

Thanks a lot, you've just gone and killed a perfectly good play-troll... now what are we going to do for entertainment?

Oh well, maybe I'm wrong, trolls got a habbit of coming back even after they are dead...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Note one instance where Mr. Draeger OR Mr. Kano say that wrestling is not a martial art.
> 
> Why? Uchikomi is a training exercise, not a technique. Moot.
> 
> Evidently you haven't seen Judo: Formal Techniques by Mr. Draeger. I met one of the people in those photos, he lives in Vancouver B.C. Great guy.
> 
> Read "Father of Judo" by Brian N. Watson. It suggests something a little different. As a matter of fact, I have heard the argument that Mr. Kano wanted to make the Japanese Jujutsu "scientific" as was found in wrestling. I think a great deal of what is being talked about is "ball sports", not just wrestling and boxing. Go figure.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unlike Russian S.A.M.B.O. [_SAMozashchitya Bez Oruzhiya_] 'self-protection without weapons', and Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which are both directly derived from Kodokan Judo, wrestling had no influence on the development of judo.[\quote]
> 
> See above.
> 
> Ever seen the book "Complete Highschool Wrestling"? It as the "baseline for pure technique" in a step by step form, or kata. Bobby Douglas teaches the same thing in showing people technique. Wrestling is different, but just as much a martial art as Kodokan Judo. Define the word "Martial" and then you have the truth.
> 
> Kosen means "high school" but not in the sense of like, American highschools- this is a major mistake for western readers. They are (and were) schools for specialized vocations. Colleges were Kosen Schools too, such as Kyoto University, so you're a little off base from the start. The reason that newaza became popular at the Kosen Schools was because they found that shiai without weight limits (which is what that was all about, not because it was "easy") it was almost impossible to beat a larger person with a throw. So, they looked to newaza to beat people or pull a draw. Back then, competitions were done much like wrestling meets without weight limits (again), where groups would win and not individuals. This was more in tune with the Japanese way of thinking, so it was of course, first for the group. Mr. Hancock has his history wrong, in this case. I have visited and trained with the newaza dojo in Tokyo and have researched the subject rather completely. You can also check out the Kyoto University website on the subject, which has a complete history.
> 
> So Wrestling is a martial art. Just different, right?
> 
> HUH? Yeah, people living 300 years ago are usually dead. There is documentation as to when many styles of Jujutsu were invented. What are you talking about?
> 
> Mr. Kano studied Kito ryu and Tenjin Shinyo Ryu. I can tell you when both of these were created and by whom.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It was developed out of a thousand year old martial art called ju-jitsu, there is no ambiguity here! There is a standard which maintains the integrity of judo, and that is called the Kodokan, located in Tokyo Japan. There is no equivalent for wrestling.[\quote]
> 
> Are you sure what you are writing here? You just contradicted your own logic. Plus, tell me when you went to the Kodokan and asked them "exactly how are you maintaining the integrity of Judo" and you probably get blanks stares. BTW and FYI, the Olympic Judo Committee and world headquarters is in Korea.
> 
> So, what is this stuff I see on the Olympics? Judo has sporting elements. That's a fact jack. It's also a martial art because it originated from MARTIAL practices. That argument does not, cannot and will not hold any water.
> 
> Actually, my observation was objective, not ambiguous- that's why I listed who did what. The point is that MARTIAL is MILITARY. Put two and two together.
> 
> No, Greco-roman wrestling cannot trace it's lineage back several thousand years. It's neither Greek nor Roman. Another subject.
> 
> I am not sure how you came up with the idea that I was saying that Jujutsu was based on European wrestling. That's a rather long stretch. Japanese Wrestling (jujutsu) indigenous to the country, like Sumo.
> 
> See above.
> 
> It's wrestling, and has an ancient lineage in the military. It is similar to Greco-Roman wrestling (well, the version we do know, which is really freestyle). It is a martial art.
> 
> AHEM...Kano did not developed Judo out of three martial arts. Pure fabrication. He developed Kodokan Judo from KITO RYU and TENJIN SHINYO RYU with input from several different ryu at the Butokukai when formulating the "formal technques". Actually, Kano borrowed the term Judo from KITO RYU which changed it's named from Kito Ryu Kumi Uchi to Kito Ryu Judo waaaay back when. All of these things are DOCUMENTED. What you are talking about in # 3 is SOSUISHI RYU or SOSUISHITSU RYU, something I have studied for lets see, 18 years. See my website www.sosuishitsuryu.com.
> 
> Umm....you might want to rethink that statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Russ,
> 
> Out of context and begging the question as usual I read.  You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out.  Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.
> 
> Dr. Kano developed judo from three or more styles of ju-jutsu.
> 
> Uchi-komi is training exercise, just like those training exercises shown in the wrestling video clips.  Uchi-komi is not kata, and wrestling contains no Kata.
> 
> There is ample documention on the formation of judo - look it up!
> 
> The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport!
> 
> The kodokan is located in Tokyo, not Korea, as I clearly wrote.
> 
> Wrestling had nothing to do with the development of judo.
> 
> I doubt very much that Donn F. Draeger wrote anything about wrestling.
> 
> Before you start bragging about 18 years of ju-jutsu experience, make sure you have 18 years of higher education to back up your opinions on judo.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## bignick

and where is your proof of 18 years of higher education on judo...



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Out of context and begging the question as usual I read. You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out. Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.



why are you attacking, no one is being negative with you...you asked for discussion and he provided it...and you attack him...play nice...or nobody will play with you anymore


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> my, my...looks like we got ourselves another one...what a beautiful creature....crikey!!!


*OH GOD, IT HAS A BLUE GI AND A CAPE - THE FUTURE OF SPORT JUDO!*


----------



## bignick

and strangely enough resembles you


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> and strangely enough resembles you


I do kind of resemble Steve Irwin.


----------



## bignick

i'm sure steve doesn't appreciate that comparison...


----------



## Mekugi

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Russ,
> 
> Out of context and begging the question as usual I read. You need to do some more research. Look up this word: HOPOLOGY, this might help you out. Then take a course on English literature and logic, and see your optometrist, it might help you to stop mis-reading the English language.


I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
I do know that you are gettng upset, and when you're wrong, that's normal. I have painted you into a corner and now you are going to be agry and apprehensive. It's nothing personal, so no need to be acting as such.



> Dr. Kano developed judo from three or more styles of ju-jutsu.


Two. Sorry, try again, it's documented. He did have help from other ryu, but the core is made up of Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Kito Ryu. You may try www.judoinfo.com to start.



> *from:*History of Kodokan Judo found at :http://www.judoinfo.com/jhist3.htm:
> "Later he studied under Hachinosuke Fukuda (note: the grandfather of Keiko Fukuda, 8th dan, who is the highest woman judoka alive) and Masatomo Iso of the Tenshin Shinyo Ryu, and Tsunetoshi Iikubo of the Kito Ryu, and was initiated into the secrets of both schools. Then he established his own school, named Kodokan, in 1882 and began to teach his own exercise calling it Judo instead of jujitsu. He was then twenty three years old and one of the faculty of the Gakushuin, the Peers' school."





> Uchi-komi is training exercise, just like those training exercises shown in the wrestling video clips. Uchi-komi is not kata, and wrestling contains no Kata.


 Uchikomi means "repatative hitting" and as the name suggests, it is usually practiced as a repitition. I have seen it for katame and nage waza. Thanks, try again. What you see on Bobby Douglas' page is NOT uchikomi. 


> There is ample documention on the formation of judo - look it up!


Take your own advise. Please, out of all honesty. Attacking Ad Hominem will not make your information any less errored. 

[/quote]The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport![/quote]You are reaching now and it's a little deeper than you think (see below). Then, holding true to your statement and logic in the above posts: wrestling should NEVER be classified as a SPORT and KODOKAN JUDO is NEVER a MARTIAL ART.
*mar·tial* (mär
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




sh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l)
_adj._ 

Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
Characteristic of or befitting a warrior



> The kodokan is located in Tokyo, not Korea, as I clearly wrote.


I think you need to look here: http://www.ijf.org/
The International Judo Federation, the GOVERNING BODY for judo worldwide. The Kodokan belongs to them, as well. 

I NEVER said that the Kodokan was in Korea. Where are you getting this? 



> Wrestling had nothing to do with the development of judo.


 Umm, try Kata Guruma. Directly lifted from a book Mr. Kano was researching. It was also a technique found in other ryu of Jujutsu, but the one that Mr. Kano found happened to be from GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLING. 



> I doubt very much that Donn F. Draeger wrote anything about wrestling.


Ever heard of the International Hoplology Society? You doubt in error. 



> Before you start bragging about 18 years of ju-jutsu experience, make sure you have 18 years of higher education to back up your opinions on judo.


Umm??? What? You certainly do not and it shows if I can just take your posts apart like this, for the second time. Is this what you are reduced to?


----------



## Andrew Green

Do you even know what "kata" means...?  cause by the sounds of it you don't.

Yet you are using it as the reason Judo is not a sport...

Wrestling has kata, as does boxing, fencing, and every other western martial art.  Only they don't use that name, because we aren't Japanese.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> I have no idea what you are trying to say here.
> I do know that you are gettng upset, and when you're wrong, that's normal. I have painted you into a corner and now you are going to be agry and apprehensive. It's nothing personal, so no need to be acting as such.
> 
> Two. Sorry, try again, it's documented. you may try www.judoinfo.com to start.
> 
> Uchikomi means "repatative hitting" and as the name suggests, it is usually practiced as a repitition. I have seen it for katame and nage waza. Thanks, try again. What you see on Bobby Douglas' page is NOT uchikomi.
> Take your own advise. Please, out of all honesty. Attacking Ad Hominem will not make your information any less erred.


The word martial means warlike, as in the martial arts, judo is a martial art - not a sport![/quote]You are reaching now and it's a little deeper than you think (see below). Then, holding true to your statement and logic in the above posts: wrestling should NEVER be classified as a SPORT and KODOKAN JUDO is NEVER a MARTIAL ART.
*mar·tial* (mär
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




sh
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




l)
_adj._ 

Of, relating to, or suggestive of war.
Relating to or connected with the armed forces or the profession of arms.
Characteristic of or befitting a warrior
I think you need to look here: http://www.ijf.org/
The International Judo Federation, the GOVERNING BODY for judo worldwide. The Kodokan belongs to them, as well. 

I NEVER said that the Kodokan was in Korea. Where are you getting this? 

Umm, try Kata Guruma. Directly lifted from a book Mr. Kano was researching. It was also a technique found in other ryu of Jujutsu, but the one that Mr. Kano found happened to be from GRECO-ROMAN WRESTLING. 

Ever heard of the International Hoplology Society? You doubt in error. 

Umm??? What? You certainly do not and it shows if I can just take your posts apart like this, for the second time. Is this what you are reduced to?[/QUOTE]Hi Russ,

Sorry to get testy, I have little patience for dillitentes, and that is the impression you gave with your constant rationalizations.

Yes, quite true, the International Judo Federation is the world governing body for judo, so can you explain why the All Japan Judo Federation, which is a member, refuses to adhere to the blue gi rule or the Golden Score demanded by the IJF when the AJJF runs the All Japan Judo Championships?

Dr. Kano lifted Kata-Guruma from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? Yet it also happened to exist in Daito-ryu Akijitsu prior to Kano's birth, but in his detailed study of ju-jutsu, Dr. Kano never came across the ju-jutsu version of kata-guruma?. Just based on your dogmatic assertion that Dr. Kano got the idea from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? This theory needs a lot of work. 

If you are in Japan, could you call, or visit, the Kodokan and ask for Mr. Naoka Murata, 7th Dan, the Curator and Professor of the Kodokan Judo Museum, and ask him, as I have done, for a definition of 'Kosen' judo, and you might get a slightly different answer than the one you supplied.

Thank God http://www.judoinfo.com is back online.

What is your source for your fixation on Greco-Roman wrestling and judo? They have nothing to do with each other? 

Referring to wrestlers practicing their moves as 'kata' is a sheer misnomer. There is no kata in free style wrestling.

Free style wrestling has been intentionally reduced to a combative sport, but judo has not. Neither the Kodokan nor the AJJF have acquiesed to the IJF entirely.

Thank you for your feedback, it tells me a lot about the knowledge of hopology of long practicing martial artists.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Do you even know what "kata" means...? cause by the sounds of it you don't.
> 
> Yet you are using it as the reason Judo is not a sport...
> 
> Wrestling has kata, as does boxing, fencing, and every other western martial art. Only they don't use that name, because we aren't Japanese.


The same question might also be put to you - do YOU even know what kata means?

Boxing, wrestling, fencing, do not have kata - it is something unique to the Asian martial arts, and a source of confusion to the Western practitioners of combative sports.

There are some good threads here on martialtalk on the meaning of 'kata' for me to supply such a basic to an alleged judo enthusiast.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> and where is your proof of 18 years of higher education on judo...
> 
> 
> 
> why are you attacking, no one is being negative with you...you asked for discussion and he provided it...and you attack him...play nice...or nobody will play with you anymore


Odd advice from someone who swore twice that he would not bother to come back to this thread?


----------



## Mekugi

> Dr. Kano lifted Kata-Guruma from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? Yet it also happened to exist in Daito-ryu Akijitsu prior to Kano's birth, but in his detailed study of ju-jutsu, Dr. Kano never came across the ju-jutsu version of kata-guruma?


That's the story, it comes from Father of Judo. Apparently, he never saw Daito Ryu. BTW, the lineage of Daito ryu starts and stops with Takeda Sokaku, for historical arguments.



> Just based on your dogmatic assertion that Dr. Kano got the idea from a book on Greco-Roman wrestling? This theory needs a lot of work.


It came from the Kodokan Archives.



> If you are in Japan, could you call, or visit, the Kodokan and ask for Mr. Naoka Murata, 7th Dan, the Curator and Professor of the Kodokan Judo Museum, and ask him, as I have done, for a definition of 'Kosen' judo, and you might get a slightly different answer than the one you supplied.


Apperantly you speak Japanese, as far as I know none of the staff at the KJM speak ANY English unless that has changed in the last 4 years. I see you have the Kodokan Dictionary of Judo Kawamura & Daigo, however, and probably visited http://www.bestjudo.com/brkodokandictionary.shtml for that direct copy and paste. I have spoken to the International Staff and to the staff in the library at the Kodokan regarding SSR, so yeah if I REALLY wanted to call them I could, but I don't have any questions. That being said,* I KNOW* Koto Semmon Gakko were and are technical "highschool" and colleges and you MAY want to look that up again, and bounce here: 

http://www.gws.ne.jp/home/demo2/indexe.html

http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm

http://www.fulbright.jp/e4/ayjcont3.html <--this is from the Fullbright Institute.



> What is your source for your fixation on Greco-Roman wrestling and judo? They have nothing to do with each other?


It was about Judo being a Martial Art, and Wrestling being a martial art. IMHO they are both martial arts.



> This thread was whether Judo was a martial art.


Still is. We are into "what is a martial art" now. 



> Referring to wrestlers practicing their moves as 'kata' is a sheer misnomer. There is no kata in free style wrestling.


Kata is translated roughly is FORM or MOVEMENTS. The techniques of wrestling are all based on technique, form, and movements. It's part of wrestling and how it is taught, just like any other martial art. There are techniques, there are forms to the techniques with henka (variation), and there is movement that are pre-arranged and shown that way. Needles to say, a pre-arranged set of movements is a form, and it is by it's own definiton, a kata. BTW...JKD isn't a martial art then? Under this definition. 



> Free style wrestling has been intentionally reduced to a combative sport, but judo has not. Neither the Kodokan nor the AJJF have acquiesed to the IJF entirely.


Ever train in Japan? Why do you think it is that you have to compete and win to promote in Judo? Judo is definately seen as a sport and the Kodokan does promote it as a sport (especially in public education). Martial arts are seen as sports here, for the most-part, sad but true.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> That's the story, it comes from Father of Judo. Apparently, he never saw Daito Ryu. BTW, the lineage of Daito ryu starts and stops with Takeda Sokaku, for historical arguments.
> 
> 
> It came from the Kodokan Archives.
> 
> Apperantly you speak Japanese, as far as I know none of the staff at the KJM speak ANY English unless that has changed in the last 4 years. I see you have the Kodokan Dictionary of Judo Kawamura & Daigo, however, and probably visited http://www.bestjudo.com/brkodokandictionary.shtml for that direct copy and paste. I have spoken to the International Staff and to the staff in the library at the Kodokan regarding SSR, so yeah if I REALLY wanted to call them I could, but I don't have any questions. That being said,* I KNOW* Koto Semmon Gakko were and are technical "highschool" and colleges and you MAY want to look that up again, and bounce here:
> 
> http://www.gws.ne.jp/home/demo2/indexe.html
> 
> http://www.kusu.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~judo/history-e.htm
> 
> http://www.fulbright.jp/e4/ayjcont3.html <--this is from the Fullbright Institute.
> 
> It was about Judo being a Martial Art, and Wrestling being a martial art. IMHO they are both martial arts.
> 
> Still is. We are into "what is a martial art" now.
> 
> Kata is translated roughly is FORM or MOVEMENTS. The techniques of wrestling are all based on technique, form, and movements. It's part of wrestling and how it is taught, just like any other martial art. There are techniques, there are forms to the techniques with henka (variation), and there is movement that are pre-arranged and shown that way. Needles to say, a pre-arranged set of movements is a form, and it is by it's own definiton, a kata. BTW...JKD isn't a martial art then? Under this definition.
> 
> Ever train in Japan? Why do you think it is that you have to compete and win to promote in Judo? Judo is definately seen as a sport and the Kodokan does promote it as a sport (especially in public education). Martial arts are seen as sports here, for the most-part, sad but true.


Hello Russ,

Many Thanks. I won't press you on why the All Japan Judo Association ignores it's governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or Golden Score in AJJF sanctioned shiai's in Japan. Thanks for the links.

P.S. I don't have the 'Kodokan Dictionary of Judo' but I was told by English speakers at the Kodokan that Prof. Murata was involved in a big dictionary project.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Odd advice from someone who swore twice that he would not bother to come back to this thread?


no i said i wasn't coming back to this thread once...i said wasn't gonna go back to your "blue gi" thread and i won't because that debate is childish and if you want to help improve the state of judo, you're focusing on the wrong things...

as for my return...i was off on another one of those safari's that i guide...but then i came back here to fertile hunting grounds


----------



## Hollywood1340

Wow...it's amazing how people can CONTINUE to belive they are right. I see now our troll is now insulting the grammer of us 'unters when he can't go head to head with the content of the argument. So once and for all Mr. Skerry
WHAT IS YOUR JUDO EDUCATION AND WHO ARE YOUR INSTRUCTORS? It's a simple question, it's a simple answer.


----------



## Mekugi

http://www.judo.or.jp/



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> ...why the All Japan Judo Association ignores it's governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or Golden Score in AJJF sanctioned shiai's in Japan....


----------



## auxprix

Hey, guys! did I miss the fun?

Patrick:

What the hell is your occupation, and how can I get into it? I've never met anyone who had so much free time. I, of course, would use it for something constructive (like increasing MA training), but that's your prerogative.

I'm going to be honest, I didn't read all of your posts. You have a way of using alot of words to say very little. So I skimmed some of them. Just to let you know, other MT members do not enjoy reading your posts as much as you do.

You put alot of weight on what Kano has written, and there is a fundimental problem with this. Kano is dead, and dead people cannot clarify or change their opinions. As you know, there is alot of Buddhist philosophy intertwined in Judo. The Buddha teaches that everything is in a constant state of change, and therefor nothing exists statically. This is very true in Judo. Kano initially developed it, yes, but many others after him have aided in the evolution of the Art. Therefore, I don't put alot of bearing on what Kano has written, since he is just one of many who constructed what I practiced today. Like I said before, dead people can't change their opinions. We have no idea now whether or not Kano would approve of what Judo has become if he were alive today.


----------



## Robert Carver

Mekugi said:
			
		

> http://www.judo.or.jp/


I can't read Japanese, but I sure as heck see a lot of pictures of folks in blue judogi! 

Proven wrong again Jack!


----------



## Baytor

Looks like I missed a little bit while I was off hunting.  Look what I bagged, though!


----------



## Mekugi

Sometimes pictures speak 1000 words. 



			
				Robert Carver said:
			
		

> I can't read Japanese, but I sure as heck see a lot of pictures of folks in blue judogi!
> 
> Proven wrong again Jack!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Sometimes pictures speak 1000 words.


I agree, click on these video clips of the All Japan Judo Championships, and other major Japanese tournaments, and try and find a blue gi in any of these AJJF sanctioned shiais:

http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html

What does the IJF have to say about that?

q.e.d.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> I can't read Japanese, but I sure as heck see a lot of pictures of folks in blue judogi!
> 
> Proven wrong again Jack!


Hello Tony,

It says: *WE HATE THE BLUE GI, DON'T WEAR IT, IGNORE IT, THE BLUE GI LOOKS REAL FUNNY, KANOSENSEI IS DOING UKEMI IN HIS GRAVE, SEE HOW STUPID THE BLUE GI LOOKS WHEN IT IS WORN.... ETC, ETC.......*


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Looks like I missed a little bit while I was off hunting. Look what I bagged, though!


 *JUDO AS A SPORT.*


----------



## bignick

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Looks like I missed a little bit while I was off hunting. Look what I bagged, though!


What 'eautiful specimen you got there, eh?  Hat's off to ya mate...i'm 'eading back into bush...


----------



## bignick

also, just if i may toot my own horn...the picture of steve and his good friend the super troll were not photoshoped...that was done entirely in microsoft paint and took FOREVER....but i feel it was worth it


----------



## Baytor

That was nice work.  I have a friend that can do amazing things with paint.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> also, just if i may toot my own horn...the picture of steve and his good friend the super troll were not photoshoped...that was done entirely in microsoft paint and took FOREVER....but i feel it was worth it


So to continue why judo cannot be a sport; Japan had sports independent of their martial arts.  The samurai played polo and a game of ball with teams and seasonal events that did not intrude upon the indigenous martial arts.  

So when Dr. Kano developed judo, he was totally uninfluenced by sports - so judo remains a martial art being mistreated as a sport.


----------



## Baytor

Thanks for putting us back on topic there Patrick, I needed to go and bang my head on a wall again.

Has anyone else heard the saying about arguing on the internet?


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> So to continue why judo cannot be a sport; Japan had sports independent of their martial arts. The samurai played polo and a game of ball with teams and seasonal events that did not intrude upon the indigenous martial arts.
> 
> So when Dr. Kano developed judo, he was totally uninfluenced by sports - so judo remains a martial art being mistreated as a sport.


alright...What i practice is not a sport, and I will grant you the same...but why is it that you cannot accept that there is a great number of people out there that are practicing judo solely as a sport...you may not like it, and it does lead to bad judo...but this is what the world sees in the olympics and it is what is most associated with judo today


----------



## Patrick Skerry

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Thanks for putting us back on topic there Patrick, I needed to go and bang my head on a wall again.
> 
> Has anyone else heard the saying about arguing on the internet?


Some good evidence to support the argument that judo is not a sport, are these sites containing ancient Japanese sports:

'Temari' an ancient Japanese ballgame

http://ww82.tiki.ne.jp/~chu-chu/English/E-rekisi/E-rekisi.htm

'Dakyu' was Samurai polo

http://www.kunaicho.go.jp/e10/ed10-01.html

and this was an Edo period ball game

http://www.temarikai.com/history01.htm

which proves that the ancient Japanese were aware of sports independent of their martial arts, making judo a martial art - but being misused as a sport.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> alright...What i practice is not a sport, and I will grant you the same...but why is it that you cannot accept that there is a great number of people out there that are practicing judo solely as a sport...you may not like it, and it does lead to bad judo...but this is what the world sees in the olympics and it is what is most associated with judo today


Not necessarliy the case.  I was at a shiai this morning and a I discussed this issue with several of the older club senseis, and they all were unhappy about the sportification of judo.  One even told me that not all of the IJF rules are being honored at his club.

So the $portification of judo in not entirely 100% accepted.


----------



## bignick

i did not say that is what everybody was doing...but there are a great deal of people practicing judo SOLELY as a sport...i did not say everybody...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> i did not say that is what everybody was doing...but there are a great deal of people practicing judo SOLELY as a sport...i did not say everybody...


I wouldn't even put it as high as a 'great deal', I think its just a minority of international competitors who have an inordinate influence on the art, and are sportifying judo for their own gain, via the IJF.


----------



## bignick

and what are they gaining by sportifying judo?


----------



## Paul B

Hi Patrick,

The sporting aspect of Judo has been beat to death,not only on other internet boards,but in Dojo across the country. Bottom line,it is what you make it.

It's not my thing,but I can respect those who "live" for shiai. We are all Judoka in whatever the sense of the word,and need to strive to put aside our petty differences for the advancement of the art.

If you want to be a "purist",that's great and good for you,if you want to be a top competitor,that's also fine and dandy,but we must have a common ground,and that is our love of Judo.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> and what are they gaining by sportifying judo?


$$$$$$$$


----------



## Baytor

Let me ask a question, as I have no Judo training...

Are there techniques that are taught more for tournaments, and others that are taught more for self defense purposes?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Paul B said:
			
		

> Hi Patrick,
> 
> The sporting aspect of Judo has been beat to death,not only on other internet boards,but in Dojo across the country. Bottom line,it is what you make it.
> 
> It's not my thing,but I can respect those who "live" for shiai. We are all Judoka in whatever the sense of the word,and need to strive to put aside our petty differences for the advancement of the art.
> 
> If you want to be a "purist",that's great and good for you,if you want to be a top competitor,that's also fine and dandy,but we must have a common ground,and that is our love of Judo.


Hello Paul,

Nobody is preventing a person from becoming a judo winning machine if they want too. Just don't require the 'majority' of us go that way. And that is one of the many points I made, that the IJF has removed the option of choice. I don't have any choice but to conform to rules that encourage the $portification of judo, or else I can give up judo.

I have no intention of leaving judo.

But I did come across some good evidence to support the argument that judo is not a sport.  See my post #153.


----------



## bignick

IamBaytor said:
			
		

> Let me ask a question, as I have no Judo training...
> 
> Are there techniques that are taught more for tournaments, and others that are taught more for self defense purposes?


yes...and this is where the "sportification" of judo comes in...people focusing entirely on the competition aspect of judo will ignore the techniques that aren't as useful or have less possibility of scoring in a competition situation....

also, they will use defenses and strategies that are totally ridiculous in a real life situation(turtling up, locking arms to prevent someone from entering)

Mr. Skerry seems to feel that the ignoring of large aspects of the martial art are less important than a few minor rule changes


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> $$$$$$$$


how?

also...showing that the people of japan played sports has no relevance to this subject...we are not talking about what they did or what judo was...we are talking about it as practiced today...


----------



## Patrick Skerry

bignick said:
			
		

> how?
> 
> also...showing that the people of japan played sports has no relevance to this subject...we are not talking about what they did or what judo was...we are talking about it as practiced today...


They want to attract a greater volume of ticket buying $$$$ spectators to judo events, to sell items $$$$, souveniers $$$$, beer $$$$, at the expense of good judo.  Judo is purposely being exploited.


Also, it is definitive that if the Japanese did not consider Judo a sport, than neither should the IJF - judo is not a sport.


----------



## bignick

japanese are no longer the only practitioner's of judo...they gave the gift of judo to the world...but now they are just one of hundreds of countries that practice judo...

also, where is your definitive proof that some japanese don't consider judo to be a sport...again...i don't want to hear about the sports they used to play....

finally, i'd like to once again ask where your information comes that Kano was critical of Mifune's judo...judoinfo.com is back online...so you should be able to find something, right?


----------



## Feisty Mouse

OK, Patrick... what are you going to do about this issue, then?


----------



## Ceicei

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> They want to attract a greater volume of ticket buying $$$$ spectators to judo events, to sell items $$$$, souveniers $$$$, beer $$$$, at the expense of good judo. Judo is purposely being exploited.


Without exposure of any type, people would soon forget judo because of insufficient awareness.  Getting judo out in front of the public is one way to get people interested and possibly get involved.

I believe good judo is how an excellent instructor teaches his students.  As some have already mentioned in earlier posts, people can find "sportified training" judo or "non-competitive based training" judo.   I believe there is enough room in this world for both types of training methods to suit the preferences of judo students.

- Ceicei


----------



## SPQR

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hello Kane:
> And without a doubt (again, in my opinion), wrestling and boxing have been reduced to a combative sport. I emphasized 'reduced' because so much of the combat effective techniques have been removed from boxing & wrestling to provide entertainment, that they no longer imress anybody but bookies and sportsbetters.


Dear Patrick,

I am impressed with you dedication and passion about Judo.  However, I would not be so subjective and critical of "combative sports."  I've seen boxers impress (and destroy) a lot of people in real fights - not just "bookies and sportsbetters."  They showed a lot of "combat effective techniques,"  too.


----------



## SPQR

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I believe the very original purpose of a martial art - to kill - is what prevents it from becoming a sport without some extreme modification to the point of total mutation, unrecognizable as the original art.


Dear Patrick,

Another comment about "combative sports."  Obviously, we don't expect to see any fight-to-death events soon, at least not legally.  However, it doesn't mean that the same boxing has lost its ability to kill.  Even with all the protective gear and rules we see people die (unfortunately)in the ring.

I guess what I am trying to say is that a martial art becomes a sport ones you step into a ring, octagon, etc.  Which way to choose and emphasize is your decision.  Different strokes for different folks.  No need to be so negative and subjective about others' choices.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

SPQR said:
			
		

> Dear Patrick,
> 
> Another comment about "combative sports." Obviously, we don't expect to see any fight-to-death events soon, at least not legally. However, it doesn't mean that the same boxing has lost its ability to kill. Even with all the protective gear and rules we see people die (unfortunately)in the ring.
> 
> I guess what I am trying to say is that a martial art becomes a sport ones you step into a ring, octagon, etc. Which way to choose and emphasize is your decision. Different strokes for different folks. No need to be so negative and subjective about others' choices.


Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)

When I said that boxing and wrestling had been 'reduced' to combative sports, I did not mean they lost their combative effectiveness.  I used the term 'reduced' because a martial art is not a sport, and boxing and wrestling have been lowered to a form of physical entertainment like badmiton or volleyball.

Ju-jutsu was not 'reduced' into a combat sport by the development of judo.  Judo just rendered ju-jutsu into a more humane form of self-defense.  Dr. Kano never intended to treat his judo as a sport, and he never referred to judo as a sport in any of his papers that I've read so far.

I do not believe a martial art becomes a sport as soon as you step into the ring, or include it as an Olympic event.  Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy.  Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Without exposure of any type, people would soon forget judo because of insufficient awareness. Getting judo out in front of the public is one way to get people interested and possibly get involved.
> 
> I believe good judo is how an excellent instructor teaches his students. As some have already mentioned in earlier posts, people can find "sportified training" judo or "non-competitive based training" judo. I believe there is enough room in this world for both types of training methods to suit the preferences of judo students.
> 
> - Ceicei


It is my opinion that Dr. Kano used the Olympics as a vehicle to provide his judo with international exposure.  The Olympics did a good job of that, and during the '70s judo was the fastest growing martial art in America.  But the Olympics were 100% amatuer, and the amatuer standing of judo was protected by both the AAU and the Olympic committee.  

Things are different now.  The AAU dropped judo from its rolls in the late '70s and the Olympics are becoming professional.

If you want a portent of things to come for judo, just look at professional wrestling.  Dr. Kano specifically warned against judo going professional.  Yet that is what is happening since 1997 when the IJF changed the rules of competition encouraging 'attacking' judo (which is an oxymoron) specifically to promote ticket sales.

The trouble about a laid back attitude to all this forced change, is that it removes the options of choice - you either conform to the IJF dictates, or you can leave.  But I don't want to leave judo, and I won't be forced out.  So other arrangements must be arranged.

But judo is a martial art being mismanaged as a sport, with deleterious effects for judo in the long run.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> OK, Patrick... what are you going to do about this issue, then?


The issue of all the rude flamers on this thread, or the question of whether judo is a martial art or sport?


----------



## SPQR

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)
> 
> When I said that boxing and wrestling had been 'reduced' to combative sports, I did not mean they lost their combative effectiveness. I used the term 'reduced' because a martial art is not a sport, and boxing and wrestling have been lowered to a form of physical entertainment like badmiton or volleyball.
> 
> Ju-jutsu was not 'reduced' into a combat sport by the development of judo. Judo just rendered ju-jutsu into a more humane form of self-defense. Dr. Kano never intended to treat his judo as a sport, and he never referred to judo as a sport in any of his papers that I've read so far.
> 
> I do not believe a martial art becomes a sport as soon as you step into the ring, or include it as an Olympic event. Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy. Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.


Thank you for explaining your thoughts!  Now I also know you are familiar with the Roman history

I am actually going to my first Judo class on Monday!  Can't wait!


----------



## Patrick Skerry

SPQR said:
			
		

> Thank you for explaining your thoughts! Now I also know you are familiar with the Roman history
> 
> I am actually going to my first Judo class on Monday! Can't wait!


Good for you.  Don't let any aching muscles discourage you from working out hard.

I was at a judo tournament this morning, I was acting referee (shimpan).


----------



## Hollywood1340

Rude Flamers, huh? How bout losing trolls?


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi SPQR, (For the Senate and people of Rome?)
> Take the judo shiai for instance; the shiai is for technique testing and rank enhancement, not to win a trophy, or rack up points, and prove your better than the other guy. Yet that is the current interpretation of the judo shiai, against the view of the founder.


and how do you earn rankd through shiai?  racking up points and winning medals


----------



## Mekugi

I don't know but the page page says "Not Found". BTW, the gi color is enforced in international events. It's pretty obvious. 



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I agree, click on these video clips of the All Japan Judo Championships, and other major Japanese tournaments, and try and find a blue gi in any of these AJJF sanctioned shiais:
> 
> http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html
> 
> What does the IJF have to say about that?
> 
> q.e.d.


----------



## Lisa

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I was at a judo tournament this morning, I was acting referee (shimpan).


Mr. Skerry, 

Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know much about Judo... but if Judo has referees and tournaments but isn't a sport, what do they need the tournaments and referees for?  Very confused....


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> I don't know but the page page says "Not Found". BTW, the gi color is enforced in international events. It's pretty obvious.


Hi Russ,

  To help answer the question from post #139, why does the AJJF ignore its governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or the 'Golden Score' in any AJJF sanctioned event in Japan?

Try this method: type in BIRD'S JUDO SHOP

then click on: VIDEO CD on your left,

then click on the video clips of an All Japan Judo Federation tournament, such as the 2004 All Japan Judo Championship, or the All Asia Championship, or the Kano Cup, or the Kodokan Red & White tournament, and try and find a blue gi.

http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html again for your convenience.

No blue gi's anywhere in sight! The AJJF won't use them in total defiance of the IJF, can you provide an explanation?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Nalia said:
			
		

> Mr. Skerry,
> 
> Please excuse my ignorance, I don't know much about Judo... but if Judo has referees and tournaments but isn't a sport, what do they need the tournaments and referees for? Very confused....


Hi Nalia,

All that extra apparatus of refs, judges, scoreboards, points, etc. etc. were all acquired when judo was adopted into the Olympics.  These are Western sport trappings imposed upon judo.

Also, in any contest of skill, even in chess or checkers, somebody is needed to make the winner Official.

There are even referee's in duels.  So an 'official' person making a decision is fairly ubiquitous in all events, whether martial arts or sports.

The trouble is that more and more western sport regalia is being imposed upon judo to the point of distortion, judo is a martial art yet being treated as a sport.  This is my point that the forced sportification of judo, might cause the end of judo.  Judo might become something else.


----------



## Lisa

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> The trouble is that more and more western sport regalia is being imposed upon judo to the point of distortion, judo is a martial art yet being treated as a sport. This is my point that the forced sportification of judo, might cause the end of judo. Judo might become something else.


still a bit confused...

If you believe that western sport regalia being imposed upon judo is distoring Judo and might cause the end of Judo, then why do you participate in what you claim will eventually ruin your martial art and make it a sport?  Why have you not walked away from that type of competition instead of supporting it by participating?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Nalia said:
			
		

> still a bit confused...
> 
> If you believe that western sport regalia being imposed upon judo is distoring Judo and might cause the end of Judo, then why do you participate in what you claim will eventually ruin your martial art and make it a sport? Why have you not walked away from that type of competition instead of supporting it by participating?


Well for one thing it is hard to walk away from a single governing body in judo, the International Judo Federation.  Not even the Japanese have done that, the Japanese just ignore it in Japan, but adhere to it only in international competition.

The IJF has a monopoly on international competition.  A lot of people, not just myself, don't like it.  But apparently I'm the first to bring up this subject on this forum, based on all the flamers, uneducated questions, and general ignorance of the IJF itself and its effect on judo.


----------



## bignick

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> But apparently I'm the first to bring up this subject on this forum, based on all the flamers, uneducated questions, and general ignorance of the IJF itself and its effect on judo.


no one is ignoring it's effect...but when you bring up inane facts like Kano was critical of Mifune's judo and repeatedly refuse to offer evidence of your claim...people tend to stop worrying about having an intelligent discussion...


----------



## Mekugi

Bird's is still a dead link. As you are so chummy with the Kodokan, you should call and ask the AJJF ; 011-81-3-3818-4199, 16:00-20:00 Japan time.



			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Hi Russ,
> 
> To help answer the question from post #139, why does the AJJF ignore its governing body, the IJF, by not using a blue gi or the 'Golden Score' in any AJJF sanctioned event in Japan?
> 
> Try this method: type in BIRD'S JUDO SHOP
> 
> then click on: VIDEO CD on your left,
> 
> then click on the video clips of an All Japan Judo Federation tournament, such as the 2004 All Japan Judo Championship, or the All Asia Championship, or the Kano Cup, or the Kodokan Red & White tournament, and try and find a blue gi.
> 
> http://www.birdsjudoshop.com/videocd_list_e.html again for your convenience.
> 
> No blue gi's anywhere in sight! The AJJF won't use them in total defiance of the IJF, can you provide an explanation?


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Bird's is still a dead link. As you are so chummy with the Kodokan, you should call and ask the AJJF ; 011-81-3-3818-4199, 16:00-20:00 Japan time.


I called them, they said I was right.


----------



## bignick

well...that ends the discussion then...he says he called them...and they said he was right...

did you also happen to ask about Kano being critical of Mifune's judo


----------



## Andrew Green

Consider this...

Kano WANTED Judo in the Olympics.

The Olympics is a INTERNATIONAL event, controlled by a INTERNATIONAL governing board.

So as long as Judo is in the olympics its highest level of competition is controlled by an international board.  Kano knew this, and wanted this.  At an international level competition has to become more user friendly to survive.  Watching to people in white gi's roll around on a 13" tv makes it hard to tell who is who.  Not to mention Black and white tv's...

Therefore to broadcast this they needed a way to make it easier to tell who is who.  Simplest solution, different colour uniforms.

Japan is ONE culture with it's own set of cultural values, they like white, they can wear white.

Judo is not controlled by Japan, not anymore.  It's gotten bigger, and outgrown Japan and is now controlled Internationally.  

You seem to like this.  Lot's of practitioners / copmpetitors world wide.  Frequent competitions just about everywhere.  Good technical standards - Look at other asian martial arts and the problems with rank / standards going on right now...

But you don't like the changes that had to be made to allow the sport / martial art to grow to that level.  

Too bad.

If you don't like what Judo is, then don't do it.  It got to where it is because of what Kano did to set it on its path.   Now if you want to sit there and say he would be unhappy with how well and how fast his art spread because of some cosmetic changes then that is your right.  But don't expect anyone to jump on your little bandwagon, because it is really kinda silly.


----------



## Mekugi

BULLSH$#
It's five AM here at the time of this posting. It was about 3 am when I posted the phone number. Furthmore, RIGHT ABOUT WHAT?

You have now proven yourself a liar. 
Thanks for playing.


			
				Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> I called them, they said I was right.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Consider this...
> 
> Kano WANTED Judo in the Olympics.
> 
> The Olympics is a INTERNATIONAL event, controlled by a INTERNATIONAL governing board.
> 
> So as long as Judo is in the olympics its highest level of competition is controlled by an international board. Kano knew this, and wanted this. At an international level competition has to become more user friendly to survive. Watching to people in white gi's roll around on a 13" tv makes it hard to tell who is who. Not to mention Black and white tv's...
> 
> Therefore to broadcast this they needed a way to make it easier to tell who is who. Simplest solution, different colour uniforms.
> 
> Japan is ONE culture with it's own set of cultural values, they like white, they can wear white.
> 
> Judo is not controlled by Japan, not anymore. It's gotten bigger, and outgrown Japan and is now controlled Internationally.
> 
> You seem to like this. Lot's of practitioners / copmpetitors world wide. Frequent competitions just about everywhere. Good technical standards - Look at other asian martial arts and the problems with rank / standards going on right now...
> 
> But you don't like the changes that had to be made to allow the sport / martial art to grow to that level.
> 
> Too bad.
> 
> If you don't like what Judo is, then don't do it. It got to where it is because of what Kano did to set it on its path. Now if you want to sit there and say he would be unhappy with how well and how fast his art spread because of some cosmetic changes then that is your right. But don't expect anyone to jump on your little bandwagon, because it is really kinda silly.


Hi Andrew,

It is true that Kano wanted his judo in the Olympics, but since Japan was first included in the Olympic games in Stockholm in 1912, it is the Olympics that have changed, not judo.  The Kodokan still maintains the integrity of judo.

But the Olympic committee is trying to change judo.  And just because the Olympic committee has had some rocky roads to follow, doesn't mean it has to reduce judo to a sport in the process.

Yet the question follows, who controls judo if not Japan?  The IJF gives out ranks, the IJF promoted Anton Geesink to 10th degree (judan), the IOC also influences judo, as does the USJF, the USJA, the USJI, the AJJF, JudoAmerica, and so on.  If not Japan, then who controls judo?


----------



## bignick

again...where did you get your information



			
				bignick said:
			
		

> did you also happen to ask about Kano being critical of Mifune's judo


----------



## Andrew Green

No one controls Judo.

The olympic committee in a sense controls all of the sports which compete in the olympic games, Judo included.  Outside of the games the smaller organizations do.

Yes, the Olympics have changed, so has EVERYTHING else, Judo included.

Perhaps you should stop trying to live in the past and enjoy Judo for what it is, not what you think it was or should be.


----------



## Hollywood1340

Um...lets see, an INTRERNATIONAL body?


----------



## Mekugi

Took me five minutes. 
http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/bluejudogi.html

*



Which events will use the blue judogi?

Click to expand...

*


> When the introduction of the blue judogi is approved at the "97" Paris IJF Ordinary Congress, the IJF will require the use of the blue judogi at the following IJF events:
> 
> Senior World Championships
> Junior World Championships,
> World Cup by Team of Nations,
> Olympic Games
> However, Continental Unions and National Federations may decide for themselves whether they will use the blue judogi in their tournaments. The IJF does not have the intention or authority to force the organizers of Continental Union and National Federation events to use the blue judogi in their events.




As for the golden score, I do believe it holds the same.


----------



## Mekugi

Interesting:



> *INTERNATIONAL JUDO FEDERATION*​*EXECUTIVE COMMTTEE MEETING *​
> *DAEGU, KOREA *​*GRAND HOTEL *​*APRIL 14th, 2003 *​
> 
> *Decision: Approved​**​**​*​
> 6. 4 Scoreboards adaptation:
> 
> Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of the new scoreboard proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, *AJJF* and SEIKO Company was given to the IJF EC: big red dot above Koka, Yuko, Keikoku Hansoku Make, indicating penalties; name of winners country will flash. For the direct Hansoku Make, the referee will go to the table of the related competition area and inform the national Technical Officials; *Golden **Score* will flash after 25 seconds and the letters GS will appear on the display-panel.




It's Monday over here, I'll ring them up and see what the have to say this evening around 16:30.


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Took me five minutes.
> http://www.judo.on.ca/articles/bluejudogi.html
> 
> *[/size][/font]
> 
> As for the golden score, I do believe it holds the same.*


*After clicking on this website, make sure you scroll down and read: 'WHAT IS THE TRADITION OF JUDO' as the IJF explains why Japan does not recognize nor use the blue gi.

We already know that the blue gi is used in international judo events.*


----------



## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Interesting:
> 
> *
> 
> It's Monday over here, I'll ring them up and see what the have to say this evening around 16:30.*


* 
Banal,  it doesn't mention that the 'Golden Score' is being used at AJJF events in Japan, just that a score board was presented as a gift via the IJF.

Why did you even bother to show this?*


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## Robert Carver

Read it again Jack...

*Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of the new scoreboard proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, AJJF and SEIKO Company ...* 

The new scoreboard proposal was agreed upon by the AJJF. So they must have had input into the scoring scheme being used.

BTW, why does the Kodokan's own website refer to Judo as a sport? http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/history.html 



> Judo became an official event in the Olympic Games of 1964, backed by Judo fans and sport promoters all over the world. It is now a very popular *sport* almost anywhere in the world.


Disclaimer: I do not think that Judo is a sport. I think of Judo as a martial arts with a sporting component. As far as the blue judogi is concerned...who cares? What is important is what is in the heart of the Judoka and not the color of his dogi.


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## Patrick Skerry

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> Read it again Jack...
> 
> *Explanation and presentation on screen regarding the design and functions of the new scoreboard proposal agreed upon by the IJF Sports and Refereeing Commission members, AJJF and SEIKO Company ...*
> 
> The new scoreboard proposal was agreed upon by the AJJF. So they must have had input into the scoring scheme being used.
> 
> BTW, why does the Kodokan's own website refer to Judo as a sport? http://www.kodokan.org/e_basic/history.html
> 
> 
> Disclaimer: I do not think that Judo is a sport. I think of Judo as a martial arts with a sporting component. As far as the blue judogi is concerned...who cares? What is important is what is in the heart of the Judoka and not the color of his dogi.


Wow, two Tony posts in a single weekend,
How's it going Tony?

Read that statement once again Tony, nowhere does it say the AJJF has accepted the 'Golden Score' in AJJF sanctioned judo tournaments in Japan!

Your supposition that the AJJF is accepting the Golden Score from that sentence is sheer speculation on your part.

The kodokan is very weak in its English, 'sport' has been mistranslated from Japanese to English.

Take a look at this kodokan website for 'any' indication of either a blue gi or 'Golden Score': http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html

Q.E.D.!!!

Thanks again Tony!


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## Robert Carver

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Wow, two Tony posts in a single weekend,
> How's it going Tony?
> 
> Read that statement once again Tony, nowhere does it say the AJJF has accepted the 'Golden Score' in AJJF sanctioned judo tournaments in Japan!
> 
> Your supposition that the AJJF is accepting the Golden Score from that sentence is sheer speculation on your part.
> 
> The kodokan is very weak in its English, 'sport' has been mistranslated from Japanese to English.
> 
> Take a look at this kodokan website for 'any' indication of either a blue gi or 'Golden Score': http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html
> 
> Q.E.D.!!!
> 
> Thanks again Tony!


I never said that the AJJF accepted the Golden Score based on that sentence or from any other source. Unlike you, I don't make wild-arsed speculation based on jibberish or hearsay. I stated that the AJJF must have had _some_ input since they AGREED to the proposal for the design of the new scoreboard. If they were not in agreement with the scoring system used, to include the boogie-man "golden score", then why did they agree? Why couldn't they jump up in the soapbox with Patrick, Jack, Keelhaulhim, or Alice, and forcefully speak out on the evils of the "golden score". Please, whoever you really are, get a friggin life!

As far as your link... Wow, cool pictures. I see a shrine to Kano Sensei, two guys doing kata, randori practice, and a bunch of folks eating noodles. Your point behind this link was?


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## Patrick Skerry

[/QUOTE] As far as your link... Wow, cool pictures. I see a shrine to Kano Sensei, two guys doing kata, randori practice, and a bunch of folks eating noodles. Your point behind this link was?[/QUOTE] 


No blue gi used in Japan despite the IJF.  Something Mekugi and you are at a lost to explain.

Take it easy Tony.


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## Robert Carver

Can you believe it? On the Kodokans own website are photos of Japanese Judoka NOT ONLY wearing the blue *judogi* (not gi, *judogi*) but also wearing sweatsuits, just like lowly athletes! 

http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo.jpg
http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo2.jpg
http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo3.jpg
http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo4.jpg

Yes, these photo come from the World Championships, but why would the Kodokan desecrate their site with photos of their Judoka in blue *judogi* and sweatsuits? What is the world coming too?


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## Patrick Skerry

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> Can you believe it? On the Kodokans own website are photos of Japanese Judoka NOT ONLY wearing the blue *judogi* (not gi, *judogi*) but also wearing sweatsuits, just like lowly athletes!
> 
> http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo.jpg
> http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo2.jpg
> http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo3.jpg
> http://www.budoseek.net/temp/photo4.jpg
> 
> Yes, these photo come from the World Championships, but why would the Kodokan desecrate their site with photos of their Judoka in blue *judogi* and sweatsuits? What is the world coming too?



Say Tony,

We all know by now that the Japanese only wear the blue gi at international judo events.  What was the point of these pictures?  Warm up suits aren't even part of the issue?
The Kodokan is into appeasement.  Plus they are justly proud of their international gold medal winning champions.  That's why the those pictures are published, not for the garrish blue gi.

Relax Tony, relax.


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## Robert Carver

Oh I am relaxed Jack, Alice, Patrick and Keelhaulhim. 

IP Address 18.51.2.19 - Host name: SCI09.MIT.EDU = Patrick Skerry
IP Address 18.51.2.19 - Host name: SCI09.MIT.EDU = Alice Knowles

Having an identity crisis are we?

Everyone here has been upfront with who they are, their qualifications, training, etc. You on the other hand seem to want to hide in the shadows of the internet under a variety of aliases. You are a troll who does not even have the personal integrity to be straight about who you are, and to back up your statements by qualifying your level of training and experience. You make wild arsed statements like "Kano was critical of Mifune" or other such nonsense, and cannot back up your statements with fact. Yet, you keep bringing up the straw dog of blue *judogi* and the sportification of Judo as some issue that will soil the art. In reality, it is folks like you, that does not have the integrity to follow rules that you agreed to (at BudoSeek!) or the intestinal fortitude to identify yourself publicly when you stand up for what you believe that will be the ruin of Judo.

I refuse to have a battle of wits with someone who is obviously unarmed.


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## bignick

crikey, i think robert's got it...i think it's about time i hung up the hunting hat too, eh mates...what do you say...we leave this troll alone in 'is natural 'abitat and we go throw another shrimp on the barbie....


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## Mekugi

The IJF does not enforce this not imose this on any locally acting ORG FED or otherwise. *CLEARLY STATED* this is again repeated after you have _blatently lied_. The AJJF toes the line for the IJF in International events (such as the one in Osaka). I am going to call the AJJF in three minutes, to ask about the Golden Score. 




> No blue gi used in Japan despite the IJF. Something Mekugi and you are at a lost to explain.
> 
> Take it easy Tony.


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## Mekugi

Ahhh yes, the power of communication. 

I just got off the phone with the AJJF and a very nice young woman (the office was closed, but I got through to the front desk) and this is how it falls:

*GOLDEN SCORE:*

In Japan they use two sets of rules, as it is ALLOWED by the IJF. They have the choice to use the AJJF rule - OR -they use the IJF rules. Generally, if there is an International Event in Japan, sanctioned/sponsred by the IJF with or without inbersment to the IJF, they agree beforehand as which set of rules to adhere to. BOTTOM LINE AND FROM THE HORSE. That is why they have the scoreboards set up to display the Golden Score. So, it's not about defiance, it's about what rules they are choosing to use. Period. They use both AJJF and IJF rules. 

*BLUE UWAGI* (Yes, it's never Gi, unless I am talking to you foreigners  )

Japan does not use the blue Uwagi for AJJF Rules. They only use the blue Uwagi for events that are using IJF rules (see above) or the Olympics and other matches that they attend using the IJF rules. 

Too bad, so sad!


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## Mekugi

Lessgo check out them Sheilas over at the water hole mate! 





			
				bignick said:
			
		

> crikey, i think robert's got it...i think it's about time i hung up the hunting hat too, eh mates...what do you say...we leave this troll alone in 'is natural 'abitat and we go throw another shrimp on the barbie....


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## Mekugi

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> Take a look at this kodokan website for 'any' indication of either a blue gi or 'Golden Score': http://www.kodokan.org/j_info/02kagami_j.html


Umm yeah, that's a Kagami Biraki. Year opening ceremony. Nice try.


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## Feisty Mouse

Mekugi, I think you have taken the touchdown, spiked the ball, and are doing your victory dance.

The troll-hunters dance with you!


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## bignick

another succussful hunt in the books...

i'm gonna mount dis one right in me livin' room...


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## Hollywood1340

Eh the thing to do now is to run im off. Keep the pressure up mates, it's when victory is close, defeat can be at 'and!


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## auxprix

I am glad to see the Judo forums actually being used for once, it was just Big Nick and I here for a while. I just wish we could have a decent thread, instead of running around in circles over this stupid Blue Gi issue (which 'Patrick' always comes back to.)


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## bignick

so true...


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## Mekugi

You're all right, it's really sad that it had to come down to this to get activity in the Judo folder. LAME.

BTW....have you seen the Mifune video Asahi Shimbun did some 40+ years ago...the guy was uncanny.


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## bignick

yes...when he was working with the '64 judo team?  it was unbelievable...


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## Baytor

Well, I was offline most of the weekend, so I missed the grand finale.  Sounds like the hunt is over, but it was fun while it lasted.  I may stop back around though, it was a good time hanging out with you guys.


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## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Ahhh yes, the power of communication.
> 
> I just got off the phone with the AJJF and a very nice young woman (the office was closed, but I got through to the front desk) and this is how it falls:
> 
> *GOLDEN SCORE:*
> 
> In Japan they use two sets of rules, as it is ALLOWED by the IJF. They have the choice to use the AJJF rule - OR -they use the IJF rules. Generally, if there is an International Event in Japan, sanctioned/sponsred by the IJF with or without inbersment to the IJF, they agree beforehand as which set of rules to adhere to. BOTTOM LINE AND FROM THE HORSE. That is why they have the scoreboards set up to display the Golden Score. So, it's not about defiance, it's about what rules they are choosing to use. Period. They use both AJJF and IJF rules.
> 
> *BLUE UWAGI* (Yes, it's never Gi, unless I am talking to you foreigners  )
> 
> Japan does not use the blue Uwagi for AJJF Rules. They only use the blue Uwagi for events that are using IJF rules (see above) or the Olympics and other matches that they attend using the IJF rules.
> 
> Too bad, so sad!


Hi Russ,

Thank you for taking the time and effort to prove what I was stating all along - that the Japanese do not use the blue gi in their AJJF sanctioned competitions in Japan.  I always like it when I'm proved correct!

Now back to the topic, Judo is not a sport, the Japanese don't use the blue gi in their own tournaments, so the blue gi is just a western $portification of an Asian martial art.

Thanks again Russ for substantiating my claim!


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## Patrick Skerry

Mekugi said:
			
		

> Umm yeah, that's a Kagami Biraki. Year opening ceremony. Nice try.


You don't see any blue gi's do you?


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## bignick

he's a wily one, he is...


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