# Ranking Systems



## TallAdam85 (Jun 24, 2003)

Hello 

I want to find out what people think about schools that don't have the white, orange, green, red belt system. Do you feel that the tsd that have different belt system is wrong. 
And How does your belt system work?


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## TallAdam85 (Jun 24, 2003)

White 10 gup
Yellow  9 gup
Purple 8 gup
Orange 7 gup
Green 6 gup
Green/stripe 5 gup 
Blue 4 gup
Brown 3 gup
Brown /Stripe 2nd gup
Brown with 2 stripes 1 gup


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## karatekid1975 (Jun 25, 2003)

When I did TSD, it went like this:

white 
orange 
green 
blue
brown
purple
red (two grades of red)
midnight blue 
black

The kids had a different ranking system than adults, but I don't remember what it was. I know we (adults) skipped yellow (in between white and orange). The kids had two or three more belts than the adults.

My school now (which is similar to TSD) goes like this:

white
yellow
orange
green
purple
blue
brown
red
probationary BB (black belt with white stripe through it)
black

The ranks at different schools isn't "wrong" just different. Every school and style do their own thing. I think the WTF (TKD) are the only ones that are pretty much the same.


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## TallAdam85 (Jun 25, 2003)

I am just wondering what does TKD MDK mean I know tae kwon do but what is the mdk and how old are you? Just Wondering


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## karatekid1975 (Jun 26, 2003)

It's Tae Kwon Do Moo Duk Kwan. It is very similar to TSD, as far as techniques go, and training. We also do TSD forms at higher ranks. I'm 28.


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## Shinzu (Jun 26, 2003)

i've seen many schools do it different.  even schools that break off from a federation do things different.  a belt color is just a guide for your training, so i guess you can have as many colors as you want.  i feel that they should mean something to the student though.

here are mine.

shotokan:

white, yellow, orange, blue, green, purple, brown, black


1st TSD school:

white, orange, green, brown, red, blue, black


my current TSD school:

white, orange, green, red, midnight blue

some colors have degrees within them before you get to the next colored belt level.


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## Galvatron (Jun 26, 2003)

Our ranks go:

White
Yellow
Yellow w/ Green Tips
Green
Green w/ Blue Tips
Blue
Blue w/Brown Tips
Brown
Red w/ White Stripe
Red
Black w/ White Stripe (probationary black)
Black 1st Dan


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Sep 14, 2003)

Old School.

White.
Purple.
Green.
Red. 
Midnight Blue.


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## Teacher (Sep 14, 2003)

First....there is no such animal as TKD MDK or MDK TKD.....if you were told that...you were told so in ignorance.  MDK is Hwang Kee's school....and he never abdicated, reisgned or was removed as the Kwan Jang...no matter what somone may have told you.  He died as the Kwan Jang and passed the school onto his son Hwang Hyung Chul.....and he NEVER was part of TKD. :soapbox: 

The MDK colors used in Korea were:

yellow, green, red, midnightblue and midnightblue w/red center.

OH...by the way....there is no more MDK TSD either.  In 1995 Hwang Kee formally and officially changed the name of the art taught by the Moo Duk Kwan to Soo Bahk Do. :deadhorse


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 14, 2003)

My GM trained under Kwang Kee in TSD (if you want proof, I'll give it to you  ). Somewhere along the lines, he split (might of been when some of the TSD people crossed over). He kept all the TSD forms, till recently. He dropped the pyung forms and added the taegeuk forms (last 20 years or so, I think). I think that's the way it was explained. But we still do the TSD MDK forms after black belt (except the pyung forms).

I don't mean to sound mean, but I'd like to know where you get your info. Just curious. I'm not trying to start a flame war, but I just like to know


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## Teacher (Sep 14, 2003)

Uh...from Hwang Kee himself.....the U.S. Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation....Dae Han Soo Bahk Do Hoi Moo Duk Kwan....and all the historical records of evidence.

Look....I know there have been lots of TKD people who had a lineage back to the MDK and Hwang Kee....but the truth...not the propoganda....is that Hwang Kee founded the MDK, maintained the MDK, retained the MDK and passed away as the leader of the MDK.  He never participated nor authorized anyone to represent the MDK in participation of the Kwon unification or the Tae Kwon Do movement.  Those are the facts.  I'm not grasping this stuff out of thin air...and I'm not trying to sell anything.  I'm not a member of the MDK and haven't been since I left in 1986.  But it is time we called things what they really are...and anyone that tells you there is a MDK TKD is just blowing smoke at you trying to authenticate and validate what they are doing on the coat tails of Hwang Kee and the Moo Duk Kwan.   It isn't about paying homage to Hwang Kee...and it isn't about honoring their roots....because it was not what Hwang Kee wanted.  In 1995 he offered an olive branch to the breakaways that created the so called MDK TKD...but if you do your history....they had to change their name to Moo Duk Hoi back in the 70's.  Why?  Because Hwang Kee was recognized as the sole owner to the name Moo Duk Kwan....and he didn't give that up...ever.  Even in his later years when he wanted to make peace between the TSD and TKD factions....he still did not authorize nor endorse any group of TKD practitioners to use the name Moo Duk Kwan.  These are the facts.  You can confront your instructors about this if you want to...but I'd venture to guess they will deny, dodge or just get mad and will still not give you a satisfactory response to the information and questions.  Why?  Because to do so would be to admit they are doing something that isn't quite ethical......borrowing the name of someone's school without authorization.

JH


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## mtabone (Sep 14, 2003)

I had a feeling when I read "Teacher" and location : Kentucky that it would be you sir.


I was wondering when you would find your way to this board


We even have our freind here Master Clay 


Let the party begin. 


TANG SOO!! MASTER JH.

M.Tabone


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Sep 15, 2003)

John Hancock and Frank Clay together again.
Two of the Four Horsemen have arrived...


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## Mithios (Sep 15, 2003)

There is M.D.K. T.K.D. ! Around 1965 the Korean gov. Started certifing black belt's and a majority of M.D.K. instructor's Changed to T.K.D. But kept the M.D.K. Name and tradition's. They still taught M.D.K. T.S.D. The only thing different was the name T.K.D. Some still teach the M.D.K. T.S.D. form's now and some teach a mixture of T.S.D. and T.K.D. forms. But they all consider them selves M.D.K. The M.D.K. T.K.D. group is still headquartered in Korea to this day ( the Moo Duk Hoi ) They were not endorsed by Hwang Kee, but if they actually keep the tradition of the M.D.K. alive and recognize Hwang kee as the M.D.K. founder Then i think they can still say they are M.D.K. ( politic's aside) There are some  M.D.K. T.K.D. school's that are more M.D.K. than a lot of the M.D.K. T.S.D. school's. The Moo Duk Hoi founder's had dan bong #'s with in M.D.K. and actually trained under Hwang Kee. I personally think that ought to count for something !!!!!!            Peace,  MITHIOS


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## Teacher (Sep 15, 2003)

The Moo DUk Hoi is NOT the Moo Duk Kwan.  All the sophistry aside....if you leave the Kwan....you are out of the Kwan....and you don't get to use the Kwan name.  Look...if you work for IBM and leave to start your own company...you don't get to put IBM on your products even if your company is a carbon copy of IBM and all your information, training and procedures were 'borrowed' from them.   Why you martial artists...especially those in Korean arts...insist on laying claim to things that are not legitimately yours...I'll never understand.  I'd think you'd have more pride.  If you want to stand on your own two feet then do it and stop trying to 'name drop' to ...in some perverted manner....validate yourself.  THERE IS NOT MDK TKD.  The Heaven's Gate People thought Hale-Bopp was a Star Ship coming to take them home.  The fact they used a real event to base their insane ideas on doesn't make them palpatable to intelligent people nor does it in any way validate their ludicrous point of view.  The same is true of all these MDK TKD people.  Give it up!  No such animal really exists!  Get some self esteem and stop using the name MDK to boister your sense of self worth!

JH


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## Mithios (Sep 15, 2003)

I never said i was M.D.K. or M.D.H., So your thinly vailed insult's are very silly !!!!!!! And i am not talking about using the name legally. They can't . And i never said they could !!!!! i am talking about Tradition,philosophy,etc. The thing's that set us apart from sport. If there line come's out of M.D.K and they are sticking to the principal's and ideal's. Then more power to them !! I see no reason to talk bad of them. ( or any martial art ). If you want to and it make's you feel better, well it's a free country. Sorry, but politic's are not my thing.    MITHIOS


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## Teacher (Sep 15, 2003)

I'm sorry.  Did you think those were 'thinly veiled insults'?  I'll be sure to be even more plain next time....as I wasn't aware I was putting my comments under a 'veil' of any kind.  Hey...if you thought that was insulting....truth hurts.

JH


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 15, 2003)

Too bad you won't admit it, Mr. "Teacher"


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## Teacher (Sep 15, 2003)

Admit what?  That the comments were veiled?  They were not.  That they were insulting?  Depends on your position.  That they were intended to chide the ignorant?  Of course they were...that is obvious to all those that know the history.  Purpose?  Hopefully to get some people out of the fog that they have operated in for far too many years.  Maybe you'd be better served asking not 'Why' I would make such comments....but 'Why' they even bother you?

JH


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## Mithios (Sep 15, 2003)

Oh Lord, this is stupid !!!!! I had heard some descent thing's about you Mr. Hancock, But i guess your an internet tough guy now !!!! I kinda expect this from lower rank's who haven't been around  the martial arts block. But from you !!!!!!!!!!!! I was thinking i could get a decent conversation going with ya. But since my opinion is different from your's. And you can't seem to be able to handle that. I guess that's out. if you really read my post's you will see i am not talking about political crap or who call's there self what. It's this kind of crap that give's us all a bad rep.                See ya,      MITHIOS


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## Mithios (Sep 15, 2003)

Hey karate kid 1975, It's all good !!!!! If your getting good training, and you like it. That's all ya need.          MITHIOS


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## Teacher (Sep 15, 2003)

Well...I'm sorry you heard some 'decent' things about me.  I'll have to work harder so that doesn't happen in the future.

And no...It isn't OK based upon a philosphical background.  If  you are going to preach ethics.....then you will be held to that standard.  All too often what we hear from martial artists isn't what they live.  I'm an ***....I admit it.....and I live by the honestly of my words.  I don't tell people to call me 'Master' or "Kwang Jang" or some other B.S. title, like "Professor" or "Doctor", and I don't tell them I'm all full of peace and love and fuzzy puppies and butterfiles and that the world is a better place if you just meditate and assume an attitude of "everything is OK and you can do whatever you want while I'll be over here doing whatever I want".....because that is just B.S.    It is just one more symptom of the world plaque....irresponsibility.   If I have to ruffle a few feathers...shake a few trees ....shudder a few paradigms to their foundations....so be it.

Just because you 'adopt' the 'tenents' of the Moo Duk Kwan (which by the way...most school do not get right or in their full contents) or the 'Areas of Emphasis (same problem for most schools) then you think you are doing the 'Moo Duk Kwan' spirit.  What a bunch of malarky!  That is just another way of easing a guilty concious or allowing yourself to remain ignorant or worse...just being too lazy to really ponder these things and make up your own mind.

JH


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## Mithios (Sep 16, 2003)

I am not even close to being a peace and love kinda guy ! Puppies and butterflies LOL !! I wish sometimes i could be that way, But in all truth, it kinda sickin's me . I just think there is to much, your not with my fed. style, kwon etc. So ya freakin suck kinda junk going on. Hell, Hwang Kee has changed his history so much i wonder if he lived by his own tenant's. When you look at the old publications and his newer one's, they are very different. To me anyway. By the way, what i had heard was about your martial art's. Not your personality.  PEACE, THROUGH SUPERIOR FIRE POWER.              MITHIOS


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## mtabone (Sep 16, 2003)

Tang Soo Do is a family of many houses. Through the years many of us have found ourselves in different Orgs., Feds., and other groups of affilition. 

From this convo it appears we forgot we practice Tang Soo Do. Kwan Jang Nim Hwang Kee's dream was through the philosophy of Moo Duk Kwan (which now is the different houses of Tang Soo Do and Soo Bahk Do) that we would better this world, and help to bring about peace. Can we stop all this fighting? How can peices of the body fight with another? You don't see an ear fight with a nose do you?

The TKD MDK: this topic has been talked about on many other boards, including www.warrior-scholar.com, extensivly. When the facts are shown, KJN Hwang Kee never gave any blessing for a TKD MDK, or the right to use the MDK name. He was the one who kept the Tang Soo Do name. Though, Moo Duk Kwan, was always his. 

These are two seperate issues. Please, fighting is not contructive or in anyway going to help the process of going after the truth. 


Tang Soo!!!

M.Tabone


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## mtabone (Sep 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Teacher _
> I don't tell people to call me 'Master' or "Kwang Jang" or some other B.S. title, like "Professor" or "Doctor", and I don't tell them I'm all full of peace and love and fuzzy puppies and butterfiles and that the world is a better place if you just meditate and assume an attitude of "everything is OK and you can do whatever you want while I'll be over here doing whatever I want".....because that is just B.S JH [/B]




Sorry Sa Bom Nim, you are a master. A Master of Tang Soo Do. Humility: the understanding of yourself. I don't understand how the use of titles is B.S. The title should not for the person getting it, but for those who are learning from the Kwan Jang/Sa Bom/Kyo Sa ect... They should have the title that they deserve, and have the attitude and conduct of one that has such a rank. 


Namaste

M.Tabone


P.S. -- Sir, ever felt Universal white light?


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## Teacher (Sep 16, 2003)

See.  I knew you weren't done posting.

Well...unfortunately....the title thing has gotten completely out of hand.  Just look at some of the titles we have now: Grandmaster, Supreme Grandmaster, Ultimate Grandmaster, Great Grandmaster, Eternal Grandmaster.....jeeeeshhh.

I had this one student who would call me 'Massah'.  I had to put a stop to that one immediately.  (use your imagination as to why).

I don't care to be called Kwang Jang, Chung Jang or any kind of Jang.  I'll begrudgingly accept Sabomnim....but I prefer just 'Teacher' or 'Mr.'.  Nothing wrong with that.  It isn't fancy....their just being polite.   Of course...people still insist on calling me 'Master'.  I can't seem to get them to stop.  Like you...they say the 'title' is for their benefit....but that doesn't make it any easier to swallow.  I don't want sheep....I want peers.

The delimna of most of these 'Masters' I run into is that they don't realize when it's time to retire and allow those that follow to shine.  The truest measure of leadership is knowing when your time to step down comes.  Otherwise.....you're just being greedy.

So....I'll tell anyone...and I mean that....all these high titles are B.S.   Chang Sam Bong was also know as the 'Sloppy Taoist'.  Why?  Because he was plain, rough, often crude and about half nuts....at least according to the people who ran into him.  Funny thing is....those that really listened to him realized the old fuzzy fellow was a bit of genius and actuallly had something to teach....if you could tolerate him long enough to learn it.

JH


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 17, 2003)

I guess you didn't figure it out. Go back and read Mithios Posts. 

The history of TSD and TKD has been changed so much (even by one's own opinion, not facts). It is crazy. Most of it is "twisted thruth." Everyone (including Hwang Kee) have their own version on what the history was (and he gave two or three versions himself). If you read all the books, websites, ect they are ALL different. 

So, why bother with politics? Just get off it, get on the dojang floor, and train. That is what is important. Not history/politics


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## Mithios (Sep 17, 2003)

I was wondering. What about the M.D.K.-T.S.D. school's and federation's that still say they are M.D.K. when the style name was changed to Soo Bahk Do. Wouldn't that mean that there is no more M.D.K.-T.S.D. And only M.D.K.-S.B.D. I would think that would be the case. The M.D.K. is only S.B.D. Right ?? I am just looking for your opinion's and info ! So i would appreciate it if ya didn't bite my rear on this one !!!!!!!     MITHIOS


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## Ma_Kuiwu (Sep 17, 2003)

Ya gotta know how to handle ole JH.
 
He is just a  big ole teddy bear.

lol


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## Teacher (Sep 18, 2003)

Mithios is correct.  There really is no more MDK TSD.  ONly SBD.

And to Laurie.....I do train.  But the issue isn't one of 'poitics' it is one of 'ethics'.  There is a difference.   Politics are about rank recognition and who holds leadership.  Using the name of someone else's school is about the rightness of copyright infringement and what is the noble thing to do.

Filling people's heads with erroneous information that are not facts is also not about politics...again...it is about ethics and doing the right thing.

The baine of all that don't want to do their intellectual study is to say....'oh...just get on the floor and train.  That is what is important'.  Well...training physically IS important...but is no more or less important that getting a good education.

JH


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 18, 2003)

Mithios, 

I hope you don't think I was getting on you. I was agreeing with you 

Teacher, 

I don't make the rules, I didn't make the history, and I could care less about politics. I don't care who copyrighted what. I'm telling you what I was told. On the same note, I didn't even ask 

My point is, once you find a dojang for you, that's all that should matter. Am I right? I'm not going to hate you because you say there isn't any TKD MDK or TSD MDK. Nor will I agree with you. What matters is the TRAINING. Good schools are hard to come by these days. Once I found one, I stuck with it. Not because of the style, history, or politics, but for the SELF DEFENSE they teach.

I'm not trying to piss you off. I'm trying to get you to see my point of view.


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## Teacher (Sep 18, 2003)

Well...I'm not pissed off.  It actually takes a lot to piss me off...really.   I am strong in my opinions because they are well thought out.  Anyone who knows me will admit that is true.

I'm not sure you've made your case though.  You said you wanted me to see your point of view, but I'm getting it that you think there is no reason to know the history and teach it....that it isn't important....that only the physical training is important.  On that...I would have to disagree...strongly.  Nobility cannot be obtained through ignorance....and I feel martial arts should work not only for you physical life...but your intellectual life as well.

JH


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## Mithios (Sep 19, 2003)

No, i didnt' think you where getting on to me. Just teacher LOL. I understand what your talking about. In my 24 year's in the martial art's i have seen so much political crap, GRRRRRRR ! It just make's me wan't to throw my black belt's in the closet and walk away. And i did for awhile. Then i just decided to break away from the crap, and i have not looked back since.  MITHIOS


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## Mithios (Sep 19, 2003)

I agree with the title thing being out of hand ! I hold a so called master rank. And my student's know not to call me that. But it happen's sometime's. When it happen's, i have the urge to look around to see who there talking to. Then i have to say please don't call me that. I am afraid that if i let people call me that, i will start to believe it my self. I have seen it happen, and it is not pretty !! They start calling there self master.And better yet signing there name's master so and so. Hell, everyone and there moma's kitty cat, is a grandmaster these day's !!!!!!!! MITHIOS


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## Teacher (Sep 19, 2003)

OH...the title thing just keeps getting worse.  There are several groups running rampant through the country with these 'Ph.D.'s' that you can get through the internet for your 'life experience'.  OK...if they'd just be honest about what these actually are...and where they are from...it wouldn't be so bad.  But most of the people who have these things don't disclose that info....even when you confront them about 'just exactly what accredited university did you get your doctorate from?'.  OH no!  Instead...they try to dodge that question entirely...because it isn't an accredited degree and they didn't do a thesis and they didn't defend that thesis...they got it from a papermill based upon an application that THEY submited without verifiable documentation on their purported background....upon which the decision is made to issue them this so called 'Ph.D.'  Basically....as long as you pay the 'tuition' ...you get the sheep skin....and without having to actually do anything.  OH...but it doesn't stop there.  NO...these individuals then got to great pains and lengths to convince YOU that they are 'Doctors'.   Now don't get me wrong...anyone who earns a legitimate Ph.D. from an accredited university is entitle to be refered to as Dr. so and so.  But the use of that title is usually exclusive to academic or educational arenas (with exceptions being made in areas of research and development).  That is to say...if you have a Ph.D. in English Literature and you don't teach at a college somewhere...it isn't common nor appropriate to have some refer to you as a 'Doctor'.  But heaven forbid these sad little egos can't get their penance from the public for their possession of their so-called Doctorate.  NO...they INSIST that EVERYONE refer to them as DR. So and So and get mad when you question why they require that.  They sign all their paperwork and even their emails and web postings as 'DR. Sumkindanut' in an attempt to get you to assume they know what they are talking about.  It is a feeble attempt on their part to legitimize their ill concieved thought processes in absence of actual effort on their part.  Look...it is simple...a TRUE possessor of a Ph.D. will put "Ph.D." on his business cards...and occasionally on his official correspondences.  However, he doesn't sign his name DR. so-n-so and he doesn't Print the word 'DOCTOR' in front of his name.  A guy who does that is trying to sell you something....namely....an acceptance of HIM as an authority (usually not even refined to a particular subject...just on everything in general).

I know lots of 'Doctors'.  They practice medicine of some type or specialty.  I know lots of Ph.D.'s.  Some teach in colleges and universities and are referred to as 'Doctor' by their students or other faculty.  And I know a few people who have Ph.D.'s who work in the private sector and they DON'T go around asking everyone they meet to refer to them as "DOCTOR".    

So...just like these knuckleheads....if a guy insists you refer to him as 'Master' or even more so...'Grand Master'....put one hand on your wallet...and for God's sake...don't drink the Koolaide!

JH


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## Mithios (Sep 19, 2003)

Your damn right Mr.H!!!!!!!!!      MITHIOS


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## karatekid1975 (Sep 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mithios _
> *No, i didnt' think you where getting on to me. Just teacher LOL. I understand what your talking about. In my 24 year's in the martial art's i have seen so much political crap, GRRRRRRR ! It just make's me wan't to throw my black belt's in the closet and walk away. And i did for awhile. Then i just decided to break away from the crap, and i have not looked back since.  MITHIOS *



My point exactly  In my short 3 year martial arts career, I seen so much crap, I don't care to see it anymore. I'm there to train. That's it. I love the martial arts, but not to the point of getting involved with that crap. So I totally agree with you on this


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## Rob Broad (Jul 28, 2004)

Has the influx of new ranks in TSD strengthened or weakened the art?


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## Sarah (Jul 28, 2004)

White
White w Yellow Strip
Yellow
Yellow w Green Strip
Green
Green w Blue Strip
Blue
Blue w Red Strip
Red
Red w Black Strip
Black
etc etc


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