# How safe is Jujutsu or Judo?



## moonhill99

I have read mix reviews on it and friend of mine said Jujutsu or Judo is fun but will wreck you body.  And Jujutsu being worse will wreck your joints he said because of all the joint locks.

That getting thrown to a mat every night at 3x a week for over a decade can cause back pain or a sniff neck. All the pains and aches of the back and neck.

And it will wreck your knees, especially if you do a lot of competition.

And you can get osteoartheritis on all your fingers and wrist because of the joint locks.

And pinched nerve in your neck or back.


I thought Jujutsu or Judo was better on your knees than Taekwondo  and some of the kung fu or some of the karate that are very big on very high kicks, spinning kicks,rounded kicks, jumping kicks and flying kicks and such that will have more toll on your knees and can destroyed the cartilage in your knees over time.


----------



## K-man

And you know what? You can sit in a chair and read books for the rest of your life and you can still get arthritis, you can still have heart attacks and strokes and I can guarantee that at some point in time you will die.

So let's see if there can be a case mounted for jujutsu or judo. Mostly these throws are trained on good mats so although there is a reasonable amount of falls they are break falls and rolls so they become part of the exercise giving an aerobic workout as well as the physical, and the force of the fall is largely taken by the mat.

Joint locks? Sure they put pressure on the joints but they also act to stretch everything as well. The more you practise the better you are at having them applied and in the case of shoulders you may well find you develop greater flexibility.

As to the _very high kicks, spinning kicks, rounded kicks, jumping kicks and flying kicks and such_, why do them at all? 

From a personal perspective I damaged my back over 50 years ago as a gymnast. It plays up from time to time but is no worse now than it was decades ago. I have a weak elbow. It wasn't caused by any of my training but was damaged by a Hapkido guy, 4th dan, who couldn't make his technique work. My fault for telling him I would go with him and he applied full force on a compliant partner. Not the fault of martial arts, just an ego problem for the practitioner. 

My shoulders? They are as stiff as stiff but I reckon they would be worse without the stretching they get when we are applying arm locks. Knees? Sure they creak and groan but I reckon they were damaged more by lifting heavy weights than caused by any martial art. Mind you, I don't like kicking air like you see in a lot of training. That certainly is bad for the knees.

Pinched nerves? You can pinch a nerve rolling over in bed. I have had pinched nerves in the past but to the best of my recollection, never in MA training. Arthritis? What's that? I've got lots of mates with arthritis who have never seen the inside of a dojo and I seem to have missed out. Sure I'm a little stiff in the joints when I've been immobile for a while but give me 10 seconds and I'll come good.

So there. I might be living proof that spending decades in martial art training, which had left me ten times fitter, stronger and more flexible that most of my friends who have not done MA training, is not harmful to your body. Then again, I'm only 66 so I don't know what I'll be like when I'm old!


----------



## Dirty Dog

Any martial art can result in unintentional injuries.
That's part of being a martial artist. Learning to minimize your risk is something you should be learning in your school.


----------



## Buka

No balls, no blue chips.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Any martial art carries the potential for injury. The smarter you and your partners train, the more you can mitigate that risk. Regardless, the risk is always there.

In 33 years of training I have had:

A broken wrist
A broken hand
A broken finger
A dislocated shoulder
2 cut tendons
At least a couple of mild concussions
Countless bruises
Lots of strains and pulled muscles
A few sprains
I have a bit of arthritis, which might or might not be worse from my training
I have some deterioration of my lumbar vertebrae, which might or might not be worse from my training

I'm also in much better overall physical and emotional shape that I would be if I had spent my all my free time reading and playing on the computer, which is what I would be doing if I wasn't training martial arts.

For me the trade-off is totally worth it.


----------



## Tez3

My daughter was a jockey for ten years from age 16, she ended up with a bad back, bad knees a numb finger from a horse bite and a fair few other injuries, she, daft girl she is, is now a cheer coach and you should see the injuries those people get! Even worse. By all accounts fishing is one of the most dangerous sports going. Recently a very good Australian cricketer was killed by a ball being delivered. We had a footballer who collapsed on pitch and had to be revived, another died. Broken legs galore too. Rugby has numerous incidents of broken necks and deaths. I probably don't need to go on...
My knees are dodgy from parachuting and a lot of horse riding but the rest of me is as fine maybe a bit better than at my age I have a right to be but life is a risk you can't sit there watching it through a window, not if you really want to live!


----------



## Tony Dismukes

BTW - I've noticed that the majority of injuries are things I do to myself, not stuff my training partner does to me. I don't think it's just me being a klutz - I've noted the same pattern with other people as well.


----------



## Instructor

Actually Hapkido (derived from jujutsu) helps my arthritis in my wrists immensely.  The worst thing you can do is stop moving.  The motions from our training provide a complete exploration of the range of movement in every joint in my body and helps keep aging at bay.  I actually start to feel pain when I stop practicing for awhile.  After a good workout I feel like a new man!
K-Man, sorry a Hapkidoin hurt you man, that's not cool.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Honestly, when I hear people say things like the OP, it just sounds to me like they're trying to make themselves sound badass.


----------



## K-man

Instructor said:


> K-Man, sorry a Hapkidoin hurt you man, that's not cool.


Ah, that's OK. He's not the only one. Even *Chris P* got to hurt me last night with his 'stick tricks'.  

The difference was, he didn't cause any damage!  My wife tells me it's my own fault for playing with guys who run around in white pyjamas. 

Thank's for the sentiment.


----------



## moonhill99

I ask this because my family has a history of knee and hip problems. And this year my knee have been giving me problems.

One of my family had back problems.


And arthritis runs in the family. And I think I may be  prone to it. In the morning or if it is cold my knees are a bit stiff.


I'm trying to eat cheese and dairy products every day to have strong bones and joints. My bones are bit thin and bonny


----------



## moonhill99

Tez3 said:


> My daughter was a jockey for ten years from age 16, she ended up with a bad back, bad knees a numb finger from a horse bite and a fair few other injuries, she, daft girl she is, is now a cheer coach and you should see the injuries those people get! Even worse. By all accounts fishing is one of the most dangerous sports going. Recently a very good Australian cricketer was killed by a ball being delivered. We had a footballer who collapsed on pitch and had to be revived, another died. Broken legs galore too. Rugby has numerous incidents of broken necks and deaths. I probably don't need to go on...
> My knees are dodgy from parachuting and a lot of horse riding but the rest of me is as fine maybe a bit better than at my age I have a right to be but life is a risk you can't sit there watching it through a window, not if you really want to live!



From what I read there are more injuries in competition Judo or if you try to resist a move.

If they are trying to throw you and you don't go with it you are more prone to injuries.


----------



## drop bear

moonhill99 said:


> I ask this because my family has a history of knee and hip problems. And this year my knee have been giving me problems.
> 
> One of my family had back problems.
> 
> 
> And arthritis runs in the family. And I think I may be  prone to it. In the morning or if it is cold my knees are a bit stiff.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to eat cheese and dairy products every day to have strong bones and joints. My bones are bit thin and bonny



Fish oil and exercise.


----------



## Tez3

moonhill99 said:


> From what I read *there are more injuries in competition Judo* or if you try to resist a move.
> 
> If they are trying to throw you and you don't go with it you are more prone to injuries.




I've never heard of people being killed in Judo whereas in horse racing jockeys are often killed, there's a jockey in Ireland that has been in a coma for two years now. In road cycling the riders can die or suffer serious injuries such as broken bones and other career ending injuries. In boxing even boxers can die, Judo...not so much. I think you should give up reading whatever it is you are getting this info from.


----------



## K-man

Tez3 said:


> I've never heard of people being killed in Judo whereas in horse racing jockeys are often killed, there's a jockey in Ireland that has been in a coma for two years now. In road cycling the riders can die or suffer serious injuries such as broken bones and other career ending injuries. In boxing even boxers can die, Judo...not so much. I think you should give up reading whatever it is you are getting this info from.


Unless of course you live in Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sports/japan-confronts-hazards-of-judo.html?_r=0


----------



## Tez3

K-man said:


> Unless of course you live in Japan.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sports/japan-confronts-hazards-of-judo.html?_r=0




Luckily the OP isn't though and the chances of him being injured are very small. If you watch some of the Japanese television programmes you could be forgiven for thinking they all have a death wish


----------



## Instructor

Well you don't have to train competitively anyway, just learn the art for its own sake.  It's a whole different mindset and you will find when people are focused more on learning than winning they tend to be a bit gentler with each other.


----------



## Hanzou

Judo translates into pain and agony in several different languages.

Seriously, every other martial art I've ever trained in felt like a brisk hour-long walk compared to Judo.


----------



## tshadowchaser

I agree that in Judo there are injuries usually caused by not doing a break fall correctly or the constant landing hard on the mats.  Judo involves hard practices and the longer your body is put through the riggers of this training the more likely you are apt to have an injury but that is true with most martial arts that have hard contact of any kind


----------



## Martial G

You think kung fu is dangerous? Ffs man try football!


----------



## Tez3

Martial G said:


> You think kung fu is dangerous? Ffs man try football!




It obviously is in some places. The prevalence and causes of bodily injuries in martial art kung-fu Biomedical Human Kinetics


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

moonhill99 said:


> That getting thrown to a mat every night at 3x a week for over a decade can cause back pain or a sniff neck. All the pains and aches of the back and neck.


I have been thrown on the ground in training for the past 40 years. I don't have any body issue as you have described.

If you can't treat yourself as a "*bouncing ball -  *get back up on your feet without using your hands" and consider to be thrown on the ground as "free body massage", the throwing art may not be for you. Just by looking at how fast that you can get back up after being thrown on the ground, you can tell whether you have found the right MA style for you or not.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can't treat yourself as a "bouncing ball" and consider to be thrown on the ground as "free body massage", the throwing art may not be for you. Just by looking at how fast that you can get back up after being thrown on the ground, you can tell whether you have found the right MA style for you or not.
> 
> I have been thrown on the ground in training as shown in the following clip for the past 40 years. I don't have any body issue as you have described.


Yeah, learning to trust your ukemi is a huge factor. That took me a while.


----------



## pgsmith

Talking about martial arts on-line is far safer than actually training in one.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

pgsmith said:


> Talking about martial arts on-line is far safer than actually training in one.


I don't know. You can get carpal tunnel from all the typing.


----------



## moonhill99

*Kung Fu Wang, post: 1697861, member: 28970"]I have been thrown on the ground in training for the past 40 years. I don't have any body is="Kung Fu Wang, post: 1697861, member: 28970"*

Are you in sports Judo or sports Jujutsu or not? Do you go with throw or joint lock or you try to resist? 
*
 Unless of course you live in Japan.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/18/sports/japan-confronts-hazards-of-judo.html?_r=0*



There was a video on youtube showing all moves that are now banned in Judo and many throws and take downs no longer being allowed.

It would be hard to find Judo school teaching these  old moves these days.

* Well you don't have to train competitively anyway, just learn the art for its own sake.  It's a whole different mindset and you will find when people are focused more on learning than winning they tend to be a bit gentler with each other.*


I'm more into the combative and self defense of the art anyways than sports and competition.

So traditional Japanese jujitsu had limited striking because why would you do a lot of striking fighting in feudal period in Japan fighting samurai in body armor.

Where combative schools teaching self defense or more combative use for army where mixed in a lot more striking.


*It's a whole different mindset and you will find when people are focused more on learning than winning they tend to be a bit gentler with each other*


A lot what I read is if you resist a throw or lock you could get injuries. That trying to be man with big ego and tough and all can get injuries.





*I have been thrown on the ground in training for the past 40 years. I don't have any body issue as you have described.*

*If you can't treat yourself as a "bouncing ball -  get back up on your feet without using your hands" and consider to be thrown on the ground as "free body massage", the throwing art may not be for you. Just by looking at how fast that you can get back up after being thrown on the ground, you can tell whether you have found the right MA style for you or not.*

My family suffers from joint problems. And bad knee and hip problems!! That is why I'm asking.

And I don't have arthritis yet, but my knee is stiff and the cold makes it more stiff. Where the hot warm makes it better.

I was scared it could trigger arthritis.

I don't know why, but my family suffers from joint problems.

I think a lot has to do with how strong your body is and my body is really week.

I think Judo or Jujutsu the non sports is lot safer and better on the joints.

Where arthritis is genetics and sports could trigger it early.

My family suffers from knee, hip, back and shoulder problem.

Going for a walk every day seem to help one of them with the hip and knee problem. Than being overweight and all that weight on the joints.


----------



## moonhill99

Tony Dismukes said:


> Any martial art carries the potential for injury. The smarter you and your partners train, the more you can mitigate that risk. Regardless, the risk is always there.
> 
> In 33 years of training I have had:
> 
> A broken wrist
> A broken hand
> A broken finger
> A dislocated shoulder
> 2 cut tendons
> At least a couple of mild concussions
> Countless bruises
> Lots of strains and pulled muscles
> A few sprains
> I have a bit of arthritis, which might or might not be worse from my training
> I have some deterioration of my lumbar vertebrae, which might or might not be worse from my training
> 
> I'm also in much better overall physical and emotional shape that I would be if I had spent my all my free time reading and playing on the computer, which is what I would be doing if I wasn't training martial arts.
> 
> For me the trade-off is totally worth it.



Tony not sure what other martial arts you training in but I thought you are training in Brazilian jiu jitsu? 

Brazilian jiu jitsu and Aikido is lot safer than Judo or Japanese jiujitsu that is lot more rough and prone to injuries from what I read.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

moonhill99 said:


> Do you go with throw or joint lock or you try to resist?


You don't resist in skill "developing" but you do resist in skill "testing". Even in "testing", it's better to lose a round then to have a broken ankle. Few things can reduce the injury:

- Only resist to 80% and never resist to 100%. Save that 20% for your own safety.
- Avoid sacrifice throw.
- Never throw your opponent 1/2 way.
- Try not to drag your opponent down with you when your opponent throws you.
- Avoid joint twisting throws that involve with "elbow cracking", "neck cracking", "Knee twisting", "spine twisting", ...
- Don't smash your opponent's head direct on to the ground.
- When your opponent holds on one of your leg and sweep/hook your other leg (as shown in the following pictures), you should protect your head and don't let your face or the back of your head to hit on the ground. Do prepare for the "hard" landing.
- When your opponent lifts you up and throws you over his shoulder (as shown in the following clip), since you won't know which part of your body will land first, you should try to protect your head and forget about break fall. A heavy landing on your head can be more serious than a broken leg or a broken arm.
- ...


----------



## oftheherd1

tshadowchaser said:


> I agree that in Judo there are injuries usually caused by not doing a break fall correctly or the constant landing hard on the mats.  Judo involves hard practices and the longer your body is put through the riggers of this training the more likely you are apt to have an injury but that is true with most martial arts that have hard contact of any kind



I think that is probably true of all MA that have throwing as part of their MA.  



Dirty Dog said:


> Any martial art can result in unintentional injuries.
> 
> That's part of being a martial artist. *Learning to minimize your risk is something you should be learning in your school*.



This is of course very true, and in any sport, not just MA.  I think what most people don't take into consideration is that not everyone is capable of excelling in every sport, or sometimes, in any sport.  Some just don't have the mental or physical ability to excel.  They may do well, but they won't be part of the cream of the crop.  Some people don't accept they aren't physically able to do what others can do.  Many of them end up getting hurt because they push themselves beyond the capabilities of their minds or bodies.  That is true of MA, and professional sports athletes.  That is why not everyone can be a professional athlete.



moonhill99 said:


> From what I read there are more injuries in competition Judo or if you try to resist a move.
> 
> *If they are trying to throw you and you don't go with it you are more prone to injuries.*



Please remember that the next time someone is criticizing a demonstrated technique because the opponent doesn't seem to be resisting.  Also see K-man's comments on being hurt by a Hapkidoist (sorry about that, it shouldn't have happened).



moonhill99 said:


> I ask this because my family has a history of knee and hip problems. And this year my knee have been giving me problems.
> 
> One of my family had back problems.
> 
> 
> And arthritis runs in the family. And I think I may be prone to it. In the morning or if it is cold my knees are a bit stiff.
> 
> 
> I'm trying to eat cheese and dairy products every day to have strong bones and joints. My bones are bit thin and bonny



That is something you need to take into consideration in your study of martial arts.  Maybe you need to look for an MA that doesn't put your body under the type of stress that is more prone to causing injury.  Or, after talking to a doctor, you may find he recommends that type of study to strengthen your body.  Different martial arts have preferences in how they perform fighting.  You may prefer one over another, but your body may have a preference you should take into consideration as well.


----------



## Spinedoc

Conversely, I always feel worse when I haven't been practicing. I was just on holiday for a week, and didn't get any Aikido or Iaido in, and felt stiff, sore, and generally, just not good. Went to practice last night, and feel 1000 times better today. YMMV.


----------



## Langenschwert

Judo is plenty dangerous, almost too dangerous. I have never seen a more injury-prone martial art, and one of my arts involves swinging steel swords at other people, and results in FAR less injuries than Judo. I'm still recovering from my broken fibula from Judo. Almost there, and I have resumed training, although not standing randori yet. Newaza is fine now. That being said, a broken bone is not as damaging as a sedentary lifestyle. That will mess you up far worse in the long run. And there are plenty of sports that are worse.

However, there are steps yo can take to lessen the chance of injury. Learn your breakfalls and that will take care of a lot of it. Don't struggle too hard. The most important thing is to listen to your gut. Some people don't care if they hurt people in randori. Don't spar those people, ever, even when you're a higher belt level. It's just not worth it. When your gut says "this is a bad idea", listen to it and walk away for a break or something. That's what I'll do going forward.


----------



## moonhill99

Langenschwert said:


> Judo is plenty dangerous, almost too dangerous. I have never seen a more injury-prone martial art, and one of my arts involves swinging steel swords at other people, and results in FAR less injuries than Judo. I'm still recovering from my broken fibula from Judo. Almost there, and I have resumed training, although not standing randori yet. Newaza is fine now. That being said, a broken bone is not as damaging as a sedentary lifestyle. That will mess you up far worse in the long run. And there are plenty of sports that are worse.
> 
> However, there are steps yo can take to lessen the chance of injury. Learn your breakfalls and that will take care of a lot of it. Don't struggle too hard. The most important thing is to listen to your gut. Some people don't care if they hurt people in randori. Don't spar those people, ever, even when you're a higher belt level. It's just not worth it. When your gut says "this is a bad idea", listen to it and walk away for a break or something. That's what I'll do going forward.



So you would say Jujutsu or Aikido is safer? Why is Judo so bad? Or is it mostly in sports and people resisting too much.

A self defense Judo safer than sports one.

Some Judo schools more unsafe than others.


----------



## moonhill99

Langenschwert said:


> That being said, a broken bone is not as damaging as a sedentary lifestyle. That will mess you up far worse in the long run. And there are plenty of sports that are worse. .



I may have to see a doctor about my family history problems and the possibility I may be getting it or damaging done from a sedentary lifestyle.

Base on this well Aikido may be safer.

I have no pain or stiff joints but I have been having knee problems running up a steep hill. Where my knee was sorta of giving out. And sore for almost a week.

I don't want any thing that could trigger arthritis.

And if Jujutsu and Judo does this it is big game changer. I thought taekwondo and some karate big on high kicks and fancy  flying,jumping,spinning,twisting and jump kicks so on would be harder on the knees.

I looked at the throws,take downs,wrist locks,pins and holds and thought Jujutsu ,Judo or Aikido was best for me. With Jujutsu being really good.

But some here say it could be dangerous and destroy your joints.

With my family having joint problems and possibility I could get arthritis.

Some say here if you have arthritis it could help by exercising your joints.

What are the first signs of arthritis? Should I get bone scan and okay from doctor? Could some doctors say yes or no to it? Like some members here say it could cause arthritis and others say it could help if you have arthritis.


----------



## Langenschwert

Talk to your doctor. Martial arts aren't going to put you through any kind of stress that you wouldn't get from other sports. It's better to get more exercise than less, provided you're not overtraining. A friend of mine held off arthritis in her hands by playing piano all the time. Any kind of physical activity will put stress on the body. Being a couch potato puts stress on your whole system and can lead to a plethora of problems.


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> So you would say Jujutsu or Aikido is safer? Why is Judo so bad? Or is it mostly in sports and people resisting too much.


I have probably had more problems with Aikido (plus Hapkido) than any other martial art. I've had some cuts and broken bones from karate but the have healed. I have had joint hyper extension from Aikido and that is much longer lasting.


----------



## Spinedoc

K-man said:


> I have probably had more problems with Aikido (plus Hapkido) than any other martial art. I've had some cuts and broken bones from karate but the have healed. I have had joint hyper extension from Aikido and that is much longer lasting.



Not mention the occasional poorly taken break fall such as the one I took the other day in jiyu waza, when uke decided to hit me with a tai otoshi from a yokomen strike and I was completely unprepared for it. Left flank is still sore. LOL.


----------



## Steve

Any martial arts training at a reputable school will be reasonably safe, regardless of style.  Ultimately, it gets to the old saying, "If you really want to do something, you'll find a way.  If you don't, you'll find an excuse."

The real question here isn't whether Judo is safe enough for you.  It's, do you really want to train in judo?

If the contact is a concern for you, just accept it and move on.  Find a style that trains with less contact... or no contact.  If your goal is simply to be more fit, find a cross fit gym, or join Planet Fitness.  But if you really want to learn Judo or jujutsu (or BJJ), find a school that feels right to you and give it a shot.  Frankly, not training because you might possibly develop arthritis in the future (maybe) just sounds like and excuse you're trying out for later, when you talk to your friends and say, "Yeah, I would have trained in Judo, but unfortunately, it's too dangerous and I have arthritis.  I probably would have been really good at it."


----------



## Steve

CDC - Arthritis - Physical Activity for Arthritis - Overview

According to the CDC, sports don't cause arthritis and are actually very beneficial to people who have or are prone to arthritis genetically. 

Although an injury to a joint could lead to arthritis, the attached link discusses the benefits of sports and other "vigorous activities."  Many of the suggested activities highlight things like balancing exercises and intense strength building/aerobic activities.  BJJ and Judo provide both.  The prevailing wisdom nowadays seems to have moved away from the idea that you should "rest your joints" and is now squarely in the "use it or lose it" camp.   Maybe you should avoid actually stepping into an MMA ring, but the training itself can surely be done safely and in a way where you would benefit. 

All of that said, if you have or believe you might have a serious, degenerative condition, I think you should consider talking to a doctor before you do ANY kind of exercise.


----------



## Spinedoc

This ^^^^^. I see patients and practice in non operative spine care (PM&R) all day long. I see tons of low back pain secondary to degenerative arthritis. I will tell you exactly what I tell them. "There has only been one thing in any clinical study ever done that has been shown to slow the progression of degenerative arthritis.....(long pause).....ACTIVITY!, that's it. Medications don't, injections don't, surgery doesn't, they all help treat symptoms but do nothing to change the course of arthritis"


----------



## moonhill99

Spinedoc said:


> This ^^^^^. I see patients and practice in non operative spine care (PM&R) all day long. I see tons of low back pain secondary to degenerative arthritis. I will tell you exactly what I tell them. "There has only been one thing in any clinical study ever done that has been shown to slow the progression of degenerative arthritis.....(long pause).....ACTIVITY!, that's it. Medications don't, injections don't, surgery doesn't, they all help treat symptoms but do nothing to change the course of arthritis"



I probably should see doctor about my joint problems and fear it may get worse.

I'm scared to do any cardio exercises like running,jogging,treadmill, elliptical, jumping rope,going up hill so on because of the impact on the knees.

There is also the probability because of the sedentary lifestyle I may have done damage to my joints or I lack muscles for those work outs. And need to hit the gym and start lifting weights before I can do any thing.


----------



## K-man

moonhill99 said:


> I probably should see doctor about my joint problems and fear it may get worse.
> 
> I'm scared to do any cardio exercises like running,jogging,treadmill, elliptical, jumping rope,going up hill so on because of the impact on the knees.
> 
> There is also the probability because of the sedentary lifestyle I may have done damage to my joints or I lack muscles for those work outs. And need to hit the gym and start lifting weights before I can do any thing.


I've been protecting my knees for years. I don't do a lot of running or jumping and I am wary of deep squats or explosive jumps. Skipping is ok as you are absorbing all the shock with the foot and calf, same for the elliptical cross trainer.

Hit the gym by all means but I would be staying clear of most of the weights.


----------



## moonhill99

This is very interesting just found this.*


How common are knee problems in the city? Is there a specific age group afflicted by them?

Knee ailments have become very common in the last few years. They usually affect the age group between 40 and 70 years. Stiffness of the knees, knee pain, problems with the knee cap are common complaints that people have. In recent years, we have observed a large number of patients from the IT background as well. People in their late 30s suffering from knee-related ailments are turning up at clinics. The number of such cases has increased two-fold now. 

What are the common causes for the increasing cases of knee problems?
There are two cardinal causes for knee problems. In case of senior citizens, natural wear and tear of the knee joint is responsible for the various ailments of the knee. Usage of the Indian-type toilet, old injuries and neglect of nagging pains aggravate the condition.

However, in case of the younger generation, a sedentary lifestyle is responsible for the various knee problems. Those in the IT sector, who work for more than 12-15 hours a day and sit in the same position for a long time, are accelerating the wear and tear of their knee joints. Also, most of them do not exercise at all. 


What lifestyle changes do you suggest to avoid the early onset of knee problems?
Half an hour of daily exercise is the only way of avoiding knee problems. This exercise can be in the form of yoga, cycling, static cycling or jogging. Also, in between working hours it is a good idea to take short breaks. The only silver lining is that awareness among youngsters about knee problems is quite high.

Can you share five symptoms of the onset of serious knee problems?
Recurrent pain in the knee, stiffening, sudden change in gait, locked knee and swelling are the five major symptoms of the onset of knee problems. It is advisable to seek professional help in case you are suffering from any one of these symptoms.*

 Sedentary lifestyle to blame for knee ailments Latest News Updates at Daily News Analysis


----------



## pgsmith

moonhill99 said:
			
		

> Sedentary lifestyle to blame for knee ailments ...



  That's like proclaiming that overeating is responsible for obesity problems.


----------



## K-man

pgsmith said:


> That's like proclaiming that overeating is responsible for obesity problems.


And we all know that just isn't right ....


----------



## Xue Sheng

moonhill99 said:


> Sedentary lifestyle to blame for knee ailments Latest News Updates at Daily News Analysis



So is getting kicked in the knee more than once and tearing the meniscus in two places working in the house and catching yourself as you fall on one bent leg and there are a lot of runners and I know a ex-pro soccer player that have knee replacements..... heck do taijiquan with improper form and that can mess up your knees too..... I did not read the article.... but there are things other than a sedentary lifestyle that can lead to knee ailments


----------



## Steve

Moonhill, I think you're getting a little mixed up with different things.  Arthritis is one thing.  Joint problems can be related to arthritis or they can be a result of a host of other issues, some genetic and others not.

As Xue correctly points out, there are a lot of ways to screw up your joints, particularly your knees.   We all have to do things that are appropriate for our age and our fitness level.  And as I suggested before, if you have concerns regarding your health or fitness level, you really, really need to talk to a qualified doctor.

If nothing else, when your doctor tells you that there's nothing wrong with your knees or anything else, it will eliminate some potential excuses you might have about whether you "can" or "can't" do something.  While it's true that there are people who can't participate in some activities because they have physical limitations.  The majority, in my experience, are just making excuses.


----------



## Langenschwert

Good point on doing things appropriate to you age and ability. I'm 42, so I can't so Judo like someone in their 20's who's super-fit. That's just the way it is. I break easier than I did when I was younger. But I still train. I go to learn the art, not become a living engine of destruction. I don't do Judo tournaments, and I'm (now) careful about who I do randori with. Barring any strange medical condition that your doctor might find, there's no reason you can't do Judo. If anything, it will make you into the type of person you never thought you could be. There's tough, and then there's Judo tough. Maybe one day I'll get there. If I don't train, I never will.


----------



## lklawson

The biggest issues of joint damage in Judo are to the knee.  These are usually hyper-extended knees from throws gone wrong during shiai or when doing randori with people who don't know the difference between randori and shiai.  Yeah, blown out knees suck and can be debilitating for life.  The problem isn't the martial art, it's how some people try to practice it.  Do you think Kano kept doing full-on shiai style fight'n as he aged?  Heck, no.  He adjusted his Judo to be a healthful benefit for him.  There's some evidence that he indented Judo to be a full-range exercise system applicable to everyone, even as they age and that shiai was only supposed to be a small facet, mostly for young bucks.  If you read what many Judo instructors wrote in the 60's, they were often lamenting that the inclusion of Judo into the Olympics was damaging the art and reducing the range of students interested in and continuing their practice of Judo.  In 1964, "bird boned" Barney Fife could safely practice Judo.

Same thing goes for "joint locking" arts like Aikido.  Sure joints can be damaged but mostly be people trying techniques they're not ready for and haven't been properly trained in or by training partners going too heavy on ego and hammering the lock in too hard, too fast.  What's the blink'n point of that?

Yeah, you can be injured in an accident while out hiking just as easily as doing martial arts.  But like Langenschwert says, if you want to get injured don't pay too close attention to who you work with and how you train.

If you pay attention, you'll generally avoid most of the serious injuries, in life and in martial arts.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Langenschwert

lklawson said:


> when doing randori with people who don't know the difference between randori and shiai.



That's what happened to me. The thing about full-contact martial arts is that they attract their fair share of meatheads. My co-instructor has about a decade of MMA training under his belt, and left in part due to meatheads in the club.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Competitive Judo brown belt/ikkyu here. 22 years old. I have some pretty nasty arthritis and genetic joint issues, but here's where I'm at.

In the morning, I can't take stairs like a normal person. I have to put both feet on one stair while my ankles warm up enough to move properly. A dull ache in my wrists is a great day, on a bad one I can't close my hands. Pretty much I'm lucky when I can hold a pen  My knuckles hurt all the time, if they didn't I'd assume I'd cut my fingers off. I wear knee pads under my Gi as a matter of course, it's too painful now to have my knees drive into the mat without extra padding. I haven't trained without tape somewhere on my body in about three years. That's all general overuse/abuse stuff.

I've rehabbed both knees, the right one twice, and my right shoulder. No surgery yet . All of those are from Shiai.

Judo has a culture based around sparring and combat. Even at clinics, randori is commonplace. Not many martial artists spar as much as judoka do and almost none go 100% as often as judoka do. This comes with getting hurt and feeling banged up.

This is, of course, from a competitive perspective. Shiai isn't necessarily a part of Judo but IMHO randori is.

EDIT: In the interest of total clarity, I do a lot of heavy barbell work for strength and conditioning. However, I have never been hurt in the weight room. Always on the mat and usually in competition.


----------



## Sub Zero

moonhill99 said:


> I probably should see doctor about my joint problems and fear it may get worse.
> 
> I'm scared to do any cardio exercises like running,jogging,treadmill, elliptical, jumping rope,going up hill so on because of the impact on the knees.
> 
> There is also the probability because of the sedentary lifestyle I may have done damage to my joints or I lack muscles for those work outs. And need to hit the gym and start lifting weights before I can do any thing.



I feel you on that mate. Martial arts, with BJJ/JJJ the only form of cardio I can do.  I did some sprint drills in my crossfit class and it severely buggered uo my bad knee.  It was killing me for three weeks.  I finally manage to help it by doing one legged squats.  That was the third time running did that to me.  After the last time I just wrote about I am done doing that.


----------



## SallyWilliams

K-man said:


> And you know what? You can sit in a chair and read books for the rest of your life and you can still get arthritis, you can still have heart attacks and strokes and I can guarantee that at some point in time you will die.
> 
> So let's see if there can be a case mounted for jujutsu or judo. Mostly these throws are trained on good mats so although there is a reasonable amount of falls they are break falls and rolls so they become part of the exercise giving an aerobic workout as well as the physical, and the force of the fall is largely taken by the mat.
> 
> Joint locks? Sure they put pressure on the joints but they also act to stretch everything as well. The more you practise the better you are at having them applied and in the case of shoulders you may well find you develop greater flexibility.
> 
> As to the _very high kicks, spinning kicks, rounded kicks, jumping kicks and flying kicks and such_, why do them at all?
> 
> From a personal perspective I damaged my back over 50 years ago as a gymnast. It plays up from time to time but is no worse now than it was decades ago. I have a weak elbow. It wasn't caused by any of my training but was damaged by a Hapkido guy, 4th dan, who couldn't make his technique work. My fault for telling him I would go with him and he applied full force on a compliant partner. Not the fault of martial arts, just an ego problem for the practitioner.
> 
> My shoulders? They are as stiff as stiff but I reckon they would be worse without the stretching they get when we are applying arm locks. Knees? Sure they creak and groan but I reckon they were damaged more by lifting heavy weights than caused by any martial art. Mind you, I don't like kicking air like you see in a lot of training. That certainly is bad for the knees.
> 
> Pinched nerves? You can pinch a nerve rolling over in bed. I have had pinched nerves in the past but to the best of my recollection, never in MA training. Arthritis? What's that? I've got lots of mates with arthritis who have never seen the inside of a dojo and I seem to have missed out. Sure I'm a little stiff in the joints when I've been immobile for a while but give me 10 seconds and I'll come good.
> 
> So there. I might be living proof that spending decades in martial art training, which had left me ten times fitter, stronger and more flexible that most of my friends who have not done MA training, is not harmful to your body. Then again, I'm only 66 so I don't know what I'll be like when I'm old!



I totally agree with you! I've always wanted to try Jujutsu but I would hesitate. Better to try it than to sit in a chair and read books but still get arthritis. I'm pushing through with Jujustsu. I just have to be extra careful to avoid any injuries.


----------



## panda

you get used to the throws. takes a few months, and it's never fun when you do hard repetitive throws, but you get used to it.

arm locks - you lern when you should surrender before you'll get injured, and your partner also knows when to stop pushing\pulling.

and as for competitive judo - yes, theres injuries, but ALL competitive sports have those. so yeah, Judo is a full-contact sport with harsh injuries, but not harsher then other full-contact sports (football anyone?)


----------



## kohamy32

Any martial art has its risks, just make sure to train carefully. Preferably with a good instructor. Go at a good pace, challenge yourself, have fun but go at a pace where you are comfortable


----------



## Instructor

kohamy32 said:


> Any martial art has its risks, just make sure to train carefully. Preferably with a good instructor. Go at a good pace, challenge yourself,* have fun* but go at a pace where you are comfortable


 
Yup that sums up the whole thread perfectly.  I've taken the liberty of putting the most important part in bold letters.


----------



## Tez3

My knees are going from both age and what I did in the past, lots of horse riding and parachuting as well as martial arts. My daughter who is only 30 has bad knees and back from being a jockey, she's stopped now but still needs regular physio.


----------



## Langenschwert

panda said:


> arm locks - you lern when you should surrender before you'll get injured, and your partner also knows when to stop pushing\pulling.



As my Judo sensei says: "don't be a hero today and a dead man tomorrow". 

It's better to tap too early in training than too late.


----------



## Jeff_Beish

Had total knee replacement in 2009 and wished I had it years before.  While some of the problem may have been as a result of years in Martial Arts, duck walks come to mind, my saw bones told me my arthritis was the main culprit.  One never knows, but my legs were very strong during my MA days and learning to walk again was helped by slow kata from what ever I remembered of the old karate days.


----------



## Hwikek

If you're not willing to get roughed up, then you probably shouldn't be doing martial arts.  If you want to be able to protect yourself then you might have to accept the fact you could get hurt.  If you've never done a contact sport or even a sport in general then you might not understand the willingness to work through certain levels of pain.

When I was on a swim team, not one that was any good, I had to swim through cramps more Han once.  Why is that?  Because if you don't keep swimming you're going to sink.  And how many people want to sink?

You can get hurt doing any martial art.  I always seem to get my right elbow hurt when somebody is learning how to do an armbar.  This has happened to me in both Judo and BJJ and it's happened twice already out of two times that I was a good practice dummy.  Will there be more times in the future?  Not if I can help it.  Can I always help it?  Nope.

There is a reasonable level of pain/injury to work through.  Cramps, okay!  Minor scratches, okay!  Concussions, no.  Severe bleeding, no.  Broken bones, no.  Sprains, maybe but probably not.  Loss of consciousness, maybe.

Train smart and don't go full ham with the most hardcore people you can find if you are just starting out.  Doing so will make your neck sore, your body ache, and occasionally make your head hit the mat.  I've had all that happen and I'm not even past introductory first term of new college Judo.

In the end it is all about your expectations.  If you go into something expecting it to suck then you might not have a good time.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang

moonhill99 said:


> That getting thrown to a mat every night at 3x a week for over a decade can cause back pain or a sniff neck. All the pains and aches of the back and neck.


In order to learn the throwing art, you should have the following attitude:

- Treat yourself to be thrown on the ground as body massage,
- Treat yourself as a bouncing ball. The moment your body touch the ground, the moment that your body bounce back up.






But I do think the wrestling training is much harder.


----------



## Langenschwert

Yup, you gotta be careful. If it feels wrong, don't do it. If you feel someone who wants to spar you has no control, politely decline and take a break. I declined someone a couple of weeks ago who wanted to spar tachi waza. Nice guy, but big. If he did a makikomi (or just plain fell) on me, I'd be screwed. I said as much, and took a break. My newaza is good for my belt level, so I have no fear of him there except getting dominated, but standing sparring is another thing all together. There is simply so much that can go wrong doing tachi waza randori that I now choose my partners VERY carefully. Fortunately, there are about half a dozen guys at my dojo that are very safe to spar with. We can relax and try stuff and have a good time learning with no ego. Randori should be fun, not terrifying. There are a few guys that I will not spar standing under any circumstances, as I'd be just spending my time trying to not get seriously hurt. I have no interest in perfecting my breakfalls at 100 mph thank you.


----------



## Old Judoka

A great deal of time early on in Judo is spent learning to fall, even then injury is possible.  However, you could also get killed walking across the street....


----------



## Spinoza

I've had the same concerns and I had almost ruled something like Judo out while looking for schools. Then again . . .


----------

