# Brazilian Martial Arts



## PhotonGuy (Feb 5, 2015)

Since they don't have a folder devoted specifically to Brazilian martial arts and so I started this thread. Everybody knows about BJJ but there are other Brazilian martial arts such as Capoeira which is perhaps not as famous as BJJ but is still very fascinating and has quite the history, how it was created by slaves and disguised as a dance so their masters wouldn't know they were training in a fighting art.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 5, 2015)

Capoeira is perhaps the most fully native Brazilian martial art.

BJJ is a Brazilian spin on a Japanese art. They put a new spin and focus on it, but the fundamental techniques are still recognizably judo.

Luta Livre is like BJJ, but they threw catch wrestling and Muay Thai into the mix.

Capoeira may have roots in some African martial art(s), but the knowledge of that lineage has been lost. All we know for certain is that it was developed into its current unique form in Brazil, by slaves and free blacks. 

It was suppressed by the authorities for some time, but in the early days of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, capoeiristas were sometimes seen as upholding national pride in challenges against the "foreign" art that the Gracies were promoting.


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## Instructor (Feb 5, 2015)

I can't imagine capoeirista's fighting BJJ guys...


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## elder999 (Feb 5, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I can't imagine capoeirista's fighting BJJ guys...











Hard to imagine it not happening, culturally speaking-have a look here.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 5, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I can't imagine capoeirista's fighting BJJ guys...


The first formal challenge matches of Capoeira vs Gracie Jiu-Jitsu took place in 1931, although the first match of a capoeirista vs a Japanese jujutsu/judo fighter happened some years previously in 1909.


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## LibbyW (Feb 5, 2015)

There is a type of wrestling called Huka Huka.
I saw a sort of competition when on holiday there, it was very impressive stuff...though nothing I could post pics or vids about as it is usually done nude or nearly nude.
When I saw the men performing I was like  but then when the girls started wrestling around I was like .
The girls were a lot more grabby.
L


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## Buka (Feb 5, 2015)

A cop in my department was a Capo guy, so we used to play all the time. While not my cup of tea, he had _really_ strong legs, I imagine from all the low stances. He was very difficult to punch, it was funny. Fortunately he couldn't grapple, other than what I taught him, so I always wrapped him up. I thought that was funny, too. Beating a Brazilian stylist with Bjj.


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## drop bear (Feb 5, 2015)

Instructor said:


> I can't imagine capoeirista's fighting BJJ guys...


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## Instructor (Feb 6, 2015)

Thanks for the video's guys.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 6, 2015)

When you pit one style against another as to which style wins depends on the rules used. Whatever style the rules favor is the style that wins. That's why the Gracies were winning so much, they would only fight by rules that favor their style.


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## Drose427 (Feb 6, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> When you pit one style against another as to which style wins depends on the rules used. Whatever style the rules favor is the style that wins. That's why the Gracies were winning so much, they would only fight by rules that favor their style.



It also didnt help in the early days of the UFC that people didn't really know what BJJ was, it had existed but wasnt overly popular until the Gracies used in then. Now that people know what it is and are a little more familiar with it, we're seeing Wrestlers in the UFC who can can grapple with the BJJ guys, and Strikers who now how to stop techs from getting sunk in. 

Familiarity can make a huge difference.


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## drop bear (Feb 6, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> When you pit one style against another as to which style wins depends on the rules used. Whatever style the rules favor is the style that wins. That's why the Gracies were winning so much, they would only fight by rules that favor their style.



Vale tudo originally did not have a lot of rules.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Vale tudo originally did not have a lot of rules.



Well, they always had a "no weapons" rule, which puts the kenjutsu practitioners at a serious disadvantage. 

Seriously, though, the earliest style vs style challenge matches used to have a _lot_ of negotiations over rules. (Also some disputes over interpretations of those rules during and after the matches.) In the beginning, the Gracies (and the Japanese judo/jujutsu practitioners who preceded them) usually tried to insist on the fighters wearing a gi. The classic no-gi vale tudo matches of the sort elder999 posted above came later.


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## drop bear (Feb 6, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Well, they always had a "no weapons" rule, which puts the kenjutsu practitioners at a serious disadvantage.
> 
> Seriously, though, the earliest style vs style challenge matches used to have a _lot_ of negotiations over rules. (Also some disputes over interpretations of those rules during and after the matches.) In the beginning, the Gracies (and the Japanese judo/jujutsu practitioners who preceded them) usually tried to insist on the fighters wearing a gi. The classic no-gi vale tudo matches of the sort elder999 posted above came later.


fair point.

And having gone through a kudo stage. The gi makes a big difference. Especially favouring the clincher.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 6, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> It also didnt help in the early days of the UFC that people didn't really know what BJJ was, it had existed but wasnt overly popular until the Gracies used in then. Now that people know what it is and are a little more familiar with it, we're seeing Wrestlers in the UFC who can can grapple with the BJJ guys, and Strikers who now how to stop techs from getting sunk in.
> 
> Familiarity can make a huge difference.



From what I remember by then the Gracies had already established quite a name for themselves although back then their art was called Gracie Jiu Jitsu not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I do know of some places that still do call it GJJ. Changing the name I believe had something to do with the Gracies trademarking their name and although the trademark is apparently expired the BJJ name stuck.

But in the early days of the UFC people were starting to realize the real value of mat work and ground fighting. As for wrestlers, this might be changing but apparently wrestlers were losing to the Gracies simply for the reason that wrestlers are trained to win by pinning their opponent while the Gracies win by using submission holds. So a wrestler would have no problem pinning a Gracie but a Gracie could easily get a wrestler in a submission hold.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 6, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Vale tudo originally did not have a lot of rules.



There's always rules of some sort.


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## Drose427 (Feb 6, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> From what I remember by then the Gracies had already established quite a name for themselves although back then their art was called Gracie Jiu Jitsu not Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and I do know of some places that still do call it GJJ. Changing the name I believe had something to do with the Gracies trademarking their name and although the trademark is apparently expired the BJJ name stuck.
> 
> But in the early days of the UFC people were starting to realize the real value of mat work and ground fighting. As for wrestlers, this might be changing but apparently wrestlers were losing to the Gracies simply for the reason that wrestlers are trained to win by pinning their opponent while the Gracies win by using submission holds. So a wrestler would have no problem pinning a Gracie but a Gracie could easily get a wrestler in a submission hold.



Right, but people werent seeing it on the same scale as they did after  UFC 1 and as they do now. it was more like,  "I heard there was a man named gracie whos beating folks 2 times is his size with some kind of Jiu Jitsu" but they werent as familiar with the moves such as Kimuras, and Armbars as wrestlers and other strikers are now. Now wrestlers and strikers alike now what to look for in order to prevent submissions, and while BJJ is common, we dont have fighters submitting people left and right like the gracies did before other fighters really knew what exactly it was, and what to look out for. This familiarity with BJJ is what allows some fighters to get in the cage without any real formal BJJ training, because now they now what to watch for and how to stop it. Whereas, in the early days of UFC many fighters didnt.


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## Hanzou (Feb 7, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> When you pit one style against another as to which style wins depends on the rules used. Whatever style the rules favor is the style that wins. That's why the Gracies were winning so much, they would only fight by rules that favor their style.



I hear this constantly, and every time I hear it, I just have to laugh. There were no rules that overly favored the Gracies in UFC, just like there are no rules that overly favor bjj and grappling in MMA now.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I hear this constantly, and every time I hear it, I just have to laugh. There were no rules that overly favored the Gracies in UFC, just like there are no rules that overly favor bjj and grappling in MMA now.



Exactly, all of their challenge fights were had practically no rules except for biting and head butting usually or really dirty moves.
Look at Royce Gracie, possibly the best UFC fighter of all time, beat kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers and karate practitioners only using BJJ.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Exactly, all of their challenge fights were had practically no rules except for biting and head butting usually or really dirty moves.
> Look at Royce Gracie, possibly the best UFC fighter of all time, beat kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers and karate practitioners only using BJJ.



Hes hardly the best of all time. His record was 20 and 3. Anderson Silva's is 40 and 6. Was he influential in making mat work far more popular and well known, thus bringing it to the attention of strikers in and out of the UFC? Yes. Was he the best UFC fighter? Far from it.

 He also fought during a time where BJJ wasn't nearly as well known or popular. Now, wrestlers and strikers aren't getting submitted as easily as they did back then because they're familiar with BJJ, even if they've had no formal training in BJJ.

If royce fought today, theres no doubt he would be considered one of the best Grapplers in the UFC. But he would submit people nearly as easily as he did back then.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Hes hardly the best of all time. His record was 20 and 3. Anderson Silva's is 40 and 6. Was he influential in making mat work far more popular and well known, thus bringing it to the attention of strikers in and out of the UFC? Yes. Was he the best UFC fighter? Far from it.
> 
> He also fought during a time where BJJ wasn't nearly as well known or popular. Now, wrestlers and strikers aren't getting submitted as easily as they did back then because they're familiar with BJJ, even if they've had no formal training in BJJ.
> 
> If royce fought today, theres no doubt he would be considered one of the best Grapplers in the UFC. But he would submit people nearly as easily as he did back then.



And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.



Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.



True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.



If you think you "Muscle Through Everything" in wrestling, then you've clearly never wrestled. I can break someones arm with pretty easily with a crucifix if I muscle, or a collarbone with the claw if I muscle. Wrestling is just as much Technique as BJJ and causes many of the same injuries.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> If you think you "Muscle Through Everything" in wrestling, then you've clearly never wrestled. I can break someones arm with pretty easily with a crucifix if I muscle, or a collarbone with the claw if I muscle. Wrestling is just as much Technique as BJJ and causes many of the same injuries.



True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
> I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.



no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.

That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.
> 
> That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.



Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.
> 
> That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.



With that said though, say a BJJ guy goes to take a kickboxer down and the kickboxer quickly kicks the bloke straight in the head, then you can't really hip escape a broken jaw.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.



Not entirely. Your average Wrestler or MA may not know how to escape a triangle choke, but we do know what they look like. We know not to go to the ground against BJJ, and how to defend Takedowns. BJJ is no greater than any Striking style, its only on the ground instead of standing. Its also no better than other Grappling styles, such as JJJ or Hapkido, which all use many of the same techniques.

Many of the same ideas in BJJ such as body mechanics, how to control joints, etc. Are found in the Striking styles as well. BJJ has nothing on any other style, the fighter simply may be better.

BJJ is simply another grappling style. BJJ doesnt get the take down, BJJ doesnt get puched or elbowed, BJJ doesnt have to fight for control. BJJ guys get knocked out by TMA or boxing guys in the UFC all the time.

I say this because it's a dangerous thing, and you seem fairly new to Martial Arts. Over valuing your training, what it is, what it can do, and attributing personal ability to an art is a very dangerous thing. You dont want to be that guy who things his style is best, then gets knocked out by a street brawler because you couldn't sink a technique, maybe you weren't used to someone 2-3 times your size screaming at you and pushing you, 100 other reasons that your school or instructor may not cover. 

Remember, BJJ came from Japanese JJ and I believe Judo. Not a whole lot changed, with BJJ putting more emphasis on ground fighting. But contrary to the Gracie handbook, many fights never go to the ground. Many BJJ schools dont teach a lot of Stand up other than take downs, so what are they supposed to do when they cant take a guy down and theyre getting hammered on?

Asa martial artist, you have to understand the ins and out, and the flaws of your style. BJJ is no exception.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Not entirely. Your average Wrestler or MA may not know how to escape a triangle choke, but we do know what they look like. We know not to go to the ground against BJJ, and how to defend Takedowns. BJJ is no greater than any Striking style, its only on the ground instead of standing. Its also no better than other Grappling styles, such as JJJ or Hapkido, which all use many of the same techniques.
> 
> Many of the same ideas in BJJ such as body mechanics, how to control joints, etc. Are found in the Striking styles as well. BJJ has nothing on any other style, the fighter simply may be better.
> 
> ...



Hence why I train Muay Thai aswell


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.



We are kind of training anti bjj these days. So just denying submission opportunities by maintaining position and relying on higher percentage hitting.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.
> 
> That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.



boxing cover blocks crescent kicks.


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## jks9199 (Feb 7, 2015)

Maybe we can steer back towards the more general discussion of more or less "native" Brazillian arts?


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

drop bear said:


> boxing cover blocks crescent kicks.



A proper crescent kick takes that guard right down and still connects.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
> I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.



a submission wrestler taught me this triangle escape. 

when you feel one arm either going in or out instead of fighting that arm take your free arm and follow it. 

Triangle defended.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.



You do if they know what they are doing. Lets not look so much at submissions but at escapes. If i chose to hold you in side control and just lay and pray. You have to work to get me off.  I don't care how good your bjj is. It is just structurally easier for me to hold you down.

If you look at royce vs that capo guy in the video. The capo guy had mad scramble and royce was definitely tasked with applying strength to keep up.


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> A proper crescent kick takes that guard right down and still connects.



You are removing a hand that is glued to their head in possibly the strongest structural position they can make from there with your outstretched foot?

Andy hug might do that with an an axe kick. But it is a big ask for a normal Joe to achieve with a crescent kick


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## drop bear (Feb 7, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Maybe we can steer back towards the more general discussion of more or less "native" Brazillian arts?



samba roda.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

If you're doing a proper crescent kick, you're extending it. The ball of the foot would come past the shoulder and the heel  on the back of their wrist.  If you extend properly,that hand is going to slide right off their face, and the guard down. Your forearm is being hooked down. The joint of the elbow, forearm, and shoulder arent strong enough to fight the strength of the  leg. The arm wants to bend at the elbow. It physics. A proper crescent kick shouldn't just be the toes, the whole legs extended out. All it takes is extension to unfold the guard.


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## Hanzou (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.



Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.


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## Drose427 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.



To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler.  Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 7, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Exactly, all of their challenge fights were had practically no rules except for biting and head butting usually or really dirty moves.



Actually, as I mentioned earlier, many of their early challenge fights did involve extensive rules negotiations. As the family got more experience in vale tudo fights, the rules got more sparse. Head butting, BTW, was generally allowed in fights which involved striking.



smiller2144 said:


> Look at Royce Gracie, possibly the best UFC fighter of all time, beat kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers and karate practitioners only using BJJ.



I've got a ton of respect for Royce's accomplishments, but he's nowhere close to the best UFC fighter of all time. The level of competition in Royce's day was nowhere near where it is now.



smiller2144 said:


> Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest





smiller2144 said:


> I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.



Yeah, that's a common misconception among certain segments of the BJJ community, but it's not really true. Both BJJ and wrestling require technique. (Speaking as an experienced BJJ practitioner, I am very aware that my wrestling technique sucks and I am currently working to rectify the situation.) Either one can potentially allow a skilled practitioner to defeat a stronger, but less skilled opponent. Both require top notch conditioning to be successful at the higher levels of competition. Look at the top BJJ competitors - they're all physical beasts. Once your opponent knows all the same technique that you do, physical attributes become important.

There are cultural differences in the BJJ and wrestling communities that underlie the stereotype, but I should probably save that discussion for another thread - this one is already getting somewhat off course.



smiller2144 said:


> Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.



BJJ doesn't beat anything. An individual who knows BJJ might have the potential to beat a wide variety of opponents, depending on the circumstances and the individual's skill and attributes. I've been training BJJ pretty seriously for over 12 years now, and I'm quite aware that there are tons of people out there who have never trained BJJ and are completely capable of kicking my butt.

You might want to re-read Drose427's comment (#29) on the previous page. There's some good advice in the 4th paragraph.



Drose427 said:


> To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler. Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him



Honestly, at this point you can assume _any_ high level professional MMA fighter is at least somewhat familiar with the fundamentals of BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai, even if their personal foundation is somewhere else.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.



Thank you, someone knows.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Actually, as I mentioned earlier, many of their early challenge fights did involve extensive rules negotiations. As the family got more experience in vale tudo fights, the rules got more sparse. Head butting, BTW, was generally allowed in fights which involved striking.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Woah calm down, I did say that you can't hip escape a kick to the face when you go in for a takedown.


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## Hanzou (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler.  Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him



All of those guys have also had extensive training in Bjj concepts via their extensive MMA training. There isn't an MMA camp out there that doesn't incorporate Bjj concepts into their curriculum. To be an elite MMA fighter, you need Bjj.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 7, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler.  Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him





Hanzou said:


> All of those guys have also had extensive training in Bjj concepts via their extensive MMA training. There isn't an MMA camp out there that doesn't incorporate Bjj concepts into their curriculum. To be an elite MMA fighter, you need Bjj.




Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I hear this constantly, and every time I hear it, I just have to laugh. There were no rules that overly favored the Gracies in UFC, just like there are no rules that overly favor bjj and grappling in MMA now.



In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.


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## kuniggety (Feb 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.



That makes no sense. You're allowed to use grappling and so the rules favor a grappler? The striker can still work to keep the fight up and strike. Having a referee pull people apart would be straight up saying that the striker is allowed to use his martial arts style but the grappler isn't.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.



There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.

So you could mma without bjj.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.
> 
> So you could mma without bjj.



But you'd have to be an idiot to go into MMA with no BJJ, seriously.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.




Well not necessarily, there's plenty of Judo and catch wrestling guys that can take on and beat the BJJ people, it depends a lot on the experience and capabilities of the fighter. If they just did stand up then yes they would be unprepared but grappling experience doesn't have to include BJJ, it's good if it does of course but it won't leave any fighter unprepared if they don't have BJJ. It still very much depends on the fighter, it always will, videos don't always tell the 'truth'.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well not necessarily, there's plenty of Judo and catch wrestling guys that can take on and beat the BJJ people, it depends a lot on the experience and capabilities of the fighter. If they just did stand up then yes they would be unprepared but grappling experience doesn't have to include BJJ, it's good if it does of course but it won't leave any fighter unprepared if they don't have BJJ. It still very much depends on the fighter, it always will, videos don't always tell the 'truth'.



I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cant hip escape a well placed kick to the jaw when going for a takedown. But I'd stick to BJJ if my life depended on it.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cant hip escape a well placed kick to the jaw when going for a takedown. But I'd stick to BJJ if my life depended on it.[/QUOTE
> 
> What do you mean by a 'hip escape'? If you are going for a takedown with enough room between you and your opponent for them to kick you, you really aren't doing it properly.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 8, 2015)

Youve obviouy completely missed the point.
I know if you do it properly you wont get hit, but you can if you don't. I'm simply saying that if a person is skilled enough to kick you in the head fast enough, then theres probebly no chance of escaping it.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Youve obviouy completely missed the point.
> I know if you do it properly you wont get hit, but you can if you don't. I'm simply saying that if a person is skilled enough to kick you in the head fast enough, then theres probebly no chance of escaping it.




No I didn't 'obviously miss the point' I asked you a question you didn't answer.


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## smiller2144 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No I didn't 'obviously miss the point' I asked you a question you didn't answer.



It was a joke.
Can you side control a punch? No.
I was joking.


----------



## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> It was a joke.
> Can you side control a punch? No.
> I was joking.



Unless people understand what you are saying then it doesn't work either as a joke or a statement does it? 'Hip escape' for example what does that mean?
On the ground it's quite likely you could control a punch with side control, you can certainly pre-empt it so that fails too.


----------



## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.
> 
> So you could mma without bjj.



If you think submission grapplers aren't cross-training with Bjj guys and vice versa, you're crazy. Hell, I'm learning submission grappling in my Bjj school, and we're not even a competition-heavy school. Grappling is evolving at such a ridiculous rate that everyone is dipping into each others pools. So much so that when you're outside of competition rules, you really can't tell the grappling styles apart.


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.



So basically the minimal rules of UFC favored grappling over striking? Isn't that kind of the point? If I'm street fighting someone, and I clinch them, there's no referee that's going to pull us apart.

And yeah, why would the Gracies agree to a fight with rules that pretty much ban their style? If anything that looks bad on Urquidez, not the Gracies. It essentially shows that Urquidez didn't believe his kickboxing skills were enough to stop a grappler from taking him down.


----------



## smiller2144 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Unless people understand what you are saying then it doesn't work either as a joke or a statement does it? 'Hip escape' for example what does that mean?
> On the ground it's quite likely you could control a punch with side control, you can certainly pre-empt it so that fails too.



I understand you can but I meant in a nonsensical way.
Seriously don't even worry, anyway I love side control lol


----------



## Transk53 (Feb 8, 2015)

@smiller2144 *H*igh *I*ntensity *P*ush escape?


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> If you think submission grapplers aren't cross-training with Bjj guys and vice versa, you're crazy. Hell, I'm learning submission grappling in my Bjj school, and we're not even a competition-heavy school. Grappling is evolving at such a ridiculous rate that everyone is dipping into each others pools. So much so that when you're outside of competition rules, you really can't tell the grappling styles apart.



I am checking to see how much bjj ben askren has. So far not much.

look they are. But ok my coach is a bjj blue belt. And that was basically given to him. Now he trains with bjj guys uses bjj ish techniques. But he couldn't open a bjj school. There are still linage issues. 

And i think you can tell the difference if you are pedantic enough to care. Even our Brazilian top team guy when he was teaching us was teaching mma and not bjj. And was adamant that there was a difference.


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> I am checking to see how much bjj ben askren has. So far not much.
> 
> look they are. But ok my coach is a bjj blue belt. And that was basically given to him. Now he trains with bjj guys uses bjj ish techniques. But he couldn't open a bjj school. There are still linage issues.



Uh, that's cross-training dude.



> And i think you can tell the difference if you are pedantic enough to care. Even our Brazilian top team guy when he was teaching us was teaching mma and not bjj. And was adamant that there was a difference.



Well, everyone's welcome to their opinion. However, we're all using the guard, we're all using kesa-gatame/scarf holds, and we're all doing arm bars, leg locks, and chokes. It's just silly to say that someone who is doing submission grappling isn't doing Bjj or vice versa. That's just marketing in order to make people believe you're doing something different or new when in fact we're all just doing a combination of Judo and wrestling.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Unless people understand what you are saying then it doesn't work either as a joke or a statement does it? 'Hip escape' for example what does that mean?


Hip escape is a fundamental ground fighting movement. Smiller2144 was acknowledging that his groundfighting techniques are useless until he actually gets the opponent to the ground.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Hip escape is a fundamental ground fighting movement. Smiller2144 was acknowledging that his groundfighting techniques are useless until he actually gets the opponent to the ground.




I have been doing ground fighting, BJJ and Judo for over 16 years now and haven't come across this term.
I've had a look on Google, we know it as 'shrimping'! not 'hip escape'


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have been doing ground fighting, BJJ and Judo for over 16 years now and haven't come across this term.



Hip escape is better known as "shrimping".

EDIT: Beaten.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, that's cross-training dude.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, everyone's welcome to their opinion. However, we're all using the guard, we're all using kesa-gatame/scarf holds, and we're all doing arm bars, leg locks, and chokes. It's just silly to say that someone who is doing submission grappling isn't doing Bjj or vice versa. That's just marketing in order to make people believe you're doing something different or new when in fact we're all just doing a combination of Judo and wrestling.



Ok cross training in and being a bjj guy is two different things. If you are going to claim bjj. You really need to be legitimately training and grading in it.

Ok lets put it this way. Krav passes guard and uses scarf holds so they are bjjers right?

I really don't think it is a marketing difference rather than it being a fundamental difference in the flavour that you are training in. I really doubt bjj is going to throw its methods out the window to get more in line with the hybrid grappling systems out there.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have been doing ground fighting, BJJ and Judo for over 16 years now and haven't come across this term.
> I've had a look on Google, we know it as 'shrimping'! not 'hip escape'


I've heard it as both. Pretty common either way.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have been doing ground fighting, BJJ and Judo for over 16 years now and haven't come across this term.
> I've had a look on Google, we know it as 'shrimping'! not 'hip escape'



That is interesting because Hip escape is a common term.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> But you'd have to be an idiot to go into MMA with no BJJ, seriously.



and raise you sakuraba.


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok cross training in and being a bjj guy is two different things. If you are going to claim bjj. You really need to be legitimately training and grading in it.
> 
> Ok lets put it this way. Krav passes guard and uses scarf holds so they are bjjers right?



I never said they were "Bjj guys" or Jujitieros, I said that they know, and train in Bjj via cross-training. If I'm cross-training in Karate, I can't sit back and say that I don't know or don't train Karate, I do know it, and I do train in it.



> I really don't think it is a marketing difference rather than it being a fundamental difference in the flavour that you are training in. I really doubt bjj is going to throw its methods out the window to get more in line with the hybrid grappling systems out there.



Except we don't throw our methods out the window, we add the new methods to our existing methods, and create something better through that fusion. That's why Bjj and submission grappling in general is so effective; Because we aren't stagnant. We're constantly adapting and learning. 

If a catch-wrestler can show me a better way to get a choke, you better believe I'm learning it.


----------



## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> Youve obviouy completely missed the point.
> I know if you do it properly you wont get hit, but you can if you don't. I'm simply saying that if a person is skilled enough to kick you in the head fast enough, then theres probebly no chance of escaping it.



interestingly top level wrestlers are seeming to strike more and grapple less in the ufc at the moment.

Might be a bit rules related though.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Well, everyone's welcome to their opinion. However, we're all using the guard, we're all using kesa-gatame/scarf holds, and we're all doing arm bars, leg locks, and chokes. It's just silly to say that someone who is doing submission grappling isn't doing Bjj or vice versa. That's just marketing in order to make people believe you're doing something different or new when in fact we're all just doing a combination of Judo and wrestling.





drop bear said:


> Ok cross training in and being a bjj guy is two different things. If you are going to claim bjj. You really need to be legitimately training and grading in it.
> 
> Ok lets put it this way. Krav passes guard and uses scarf holds so they are bjjers right?
> 
> I really don't think it is a marketing difference rather than it being a fundamental difference in the flavour that you are training in. I really doubt bjj is going to throw its methods out the window to get more in line with the hybrid grappling systems out there.



Eh, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I see Judo, BJJ, Danzan Ryu, Greco-Roman, Catch Wrestling, Sombo, etc, etc as just different facets of a greater whole. In the end, we're all grapplers and we can all learn from each other. I'll take anything that works for me from any grappling style and consider it part of my own art.

That said, those different facets _do_ have their own flavors and lineages and perspectives. If someone trains Greco-Roman, I wouldn't say that makes him a Judoka. If someone trains BJJ, that doesn't make him a Danzan Ryu practitioner.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> I never said they were "Bjj guys" or Jujitieros, I said that they know, and train in Bjj via cross-training. If I'm cross-training in Karate, I can't sit back and say that I don't know or don't train Karate, I do know it, and I do train in it.
> 
> 
> 
> Except we don't throw our methods out the window, we add the new methods to our existing methods, and create something better through that fusion. That's why Bjj and submission grappling in general is so effective; Because we aren't stagnant. We're constantly adapting and learning.



Ok but we are kind of blurring the point. We are not doing bjj with takedowns. You are not doing wrestling with submissions. There is still a distinct difference between doing bjj and cross training in bjj.

i do cross train with karate guys. But i do not train karate. To claim that i cant just do snappy kicks. I have to learn the system.

I am a bjj absolutely nothing belt. What would give me the legitimacy to claim to be a bjj guy?


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I've heard it as both. Pretty common either way.




Where you live I daresay  where I live not so much. If the poster had answered the question I asked, it would have been simple.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Eh, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I see Judo, BJJ, Danzan Ryu, Greco-Roman, Catch Wrestling, Sombo, etc, etc as just different facets of a greater whole. In the end, we're all grapplers and we can all learn from each other. I'll take anything that works for me from any grappling style and consider it part of my own art.
> 
> That said, those different facets _do_ have their own flavors and lineages and perspectives. If someone trains Greco-Roman, I wouldn't say that makes him a Judoka. If someone trains BJJ, that doesn't make him a Danzan Ryu practitioner.



And to a certain degree what works for bjj has a different effect in mma. 
Actually lets use bjj and wrestling. You could just walk into one competition as either stylist. But the emphasis would change.


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Eh, it's a matter of interpretation. Personally, I see Judo, BJJ, Danzan Ryu, Greco-Roman, Catch Wrestling, Sombo, etc, etc as just different facets of a greater whole. In the end, we're all grapplers and we can all learn from each other. I'll take anything that works for me from any grappling style and consider it part of my own art.
> 
> That said, those different facets _do_ have their own flavors and lineages and perspectives. If someone trains Greco-Roman, I wouldn't say that makes him a Judoka. If someone trains BJJ, that doesn't make him a Danzan Ryu practitioner.



Well yeah, I wouldn't say that a Greco Roman guy is a Judoka. However, if someone is saying that MMA guys or submission grapplers don't know ANY Bjj, i just have to disagree. That's like me saying I don't know any Judo or Catch Wrestling, when I've learned techniques from both, and grappled with both.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Where you live I daresay  where I live not so much. If the poster had answered the question I asked, it would have been simple.



I thought you were joking when you asked it.


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## Transk53 (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Hip escape is better known as "shrimping".
> 
> EDIT: Beaten.



"Shrimping"  One that makes sense. Shrimps go sideways as well.


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## Hanzou (Feb 8, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Ok but we are kind of blurring the point. We are not doing bjj with takedowns. You are not doing wrestling with submissions. There is still a distinct difference between doing bjj and cross training in bjj.
> 
> i do cross train with karate guys. But i do not train karate. To claim that i cant just do snappy kicks. I have to learn the system.
> 
> I am a bjj absolutely nothing belt. What would give me the legitimacy to claim to be a bjj guy?



Okay, but I'm not saying you're a Jujitiero. I'm saying that you know some Bjj because of your training.


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## drop bear (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.



hanzou originally the concept was this. And train in bjj and cross train with bjj guys really are different things.


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> "Shrimping"  One that makes sense. Shrimps go sideways as well.




It's what we've always known it as, we do 'shrimping' drills and for the kids races to see who can shrimp across the mats the quickest, if you know it by one name there's little need to look for other names. Everyone we train with including Brazilian BJJ instructors always call it that.
 If I don't know something I'm more than happy to ask, I believe it's the mature thing to do, one may bolster ones ego with pretending one knows everything but really it's much better to ask isn't it?


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## Transk53 (Feb 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It's what we've always known it as, we do 'shrimping' drills and for the kids races to see who can shrimp across the mats the quickest, if you know it by one name there's little need to look for other names. Everyone we train with including Brazilian BJJ instructors always call it that.
> If I don't know something I'm more than happy to ask, I believe it's the mature thing to do, one may bolster ones ego with pretending one knows everything but really it's much better to ask isn't it?



Well some blokes do seem to have a perpetual need to bolster the ego  Yes, better to ask and be deemed a fool, than to be the fool answering!


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## Steve (Feb 8, 2015)

Unless Google works differently in the uk, a search for "hip escape" would have cleared it right up with explanations, pictures and videos.  It's not possible that anyone googled the term and didn't immediately find clear and detailed information.

This whole shrimping vs hip escape thing isn't about confusing terms.  It's about one poster taking a petty jab at another.  While I agree that asking questions is important, feigning ignorance isn't helpful and it's not mature behavior.

As for the rest, don't we have enough bjj vs the world threads to revive if that's what people want to discuss?  

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## jks9199 (Feb 8, 2015)

Folks,
Bjj is only one Brazilian at, and it's merits or necessity in mma is a valid discussion. But off topic in this thread.

ATTENTION ALL USERS

PLEASE RETURN TO THE ORIGINAL TOPIC

jks9199
Administrator

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


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## Buka (Feb 8, 2015)

My, my, this thread sure has gotten interesting, informative and amusing since Thursday! Glad I dropped back in. Especially while eating shrimp. (really, have a plate right here)

I call everything "grappling". Even though the only "grappling art" I've ever actually trained in is Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Perhaps I've confused people I know, especially my friends. Ah, well, you know what they say, "keep your friends close and your elbows closer."


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## Tez3 (Feb 8, 2015)

smiller2144 said:


> I understand you can but I meant in a nonsensical way.
> Seriously don't even worry, anyway I love side control lol



Cool, I like side control too.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> That makes no sense. You're allowed to use grappling and so the rules favor a grappler? The striker can still work to keep the fight up and strike. Having a referee pull people apart would be straight up saying that the striker is allowed to use his martial arts style but the grappler isn't.



The UFC was a bad example. What I meant to say is this, before the UFC the Gracies were challenging all sorts of top level kick boxers and people who specialized in kicking/striking arts. People such as Joe Lewis, Benny Urquidez, ect. and the challenges were being turned down? Why? Because these top level kicker/strikers knew that they didn't train to fight under rules where both striking and grappling was allowed as the Gracies did and so they knew they would lose. The Gracies trained to fight under rules that allowed both striking and grappling whereas these other fighters trained under rules that only allowed striking. Since they didn't train to fight in fights where both striking and grappling was allowed they would lose and they knew it. And so they didn't take on the challenges.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> And yeah, why would the Gracies agree to a fight with rules that pretty much ban their style? If anything that looks bad on Urquidez, not the Gracies. It essentially shows that Urquidez didn't believe his kickboxing skills were enough to stop a grappler from taking him down.



Because Urquidez didn't train to fight against grapplers. Urquidez didn't need to be able to stop a grappler from taking him down because in the fights he would fight nobody would do that since it wouldn't be allowed. Urquidez was a kicker/striker and he fought in fights that were strictly kicking/striking so it wouldn't be necessary for him to be able to stop grapplers.


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## Buka (Feb 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> The UFC was a bad example. What I meant to say is this, before the UFC the Gracies were challenging all sorts of top level kick boxers and people who specialized in kicking/striking arts. People such as Joe Lewis, Benny Urquidez, ect. and the challenges were being turned down? Why? Because these top level kicker/strikers knew that they didn't train to fight under rules where both striking and grappling was allowed as the Gracies did and so they knew they would lose. The Gracies trained to fight under rules that allowed both striking and grappling whereas these other fighters trained under rules that only allowed striking. Since they didn't train to fight in fights where both striking and grappling was allowed they would lose and they knew it. And so they didn't take on the challenges.





PhotonGuy said:


> Because Urquidez didn't train to fight against grapplers. Urquidez didn't need to be able to stop a grappler from taking him down because in the fights he would fight nobody would do that since it wouldn't be allowed. Urquidez was a kicker/striker and he fought in fights that were strictly kicking/striking so it wouldn't be necessary for him to be able to stop grapplers.



I respectfully think you are misinformed.


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## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> Bjj is only one Brazilian at, and it's merits or necessity in mma is a valid discussion. But of topic in this thread.
> 
> ATTENTION ALL USERS
> ...



I agree. I like to discuss Brazilian martial arts and while that definitely includes BJJ and that its a great martial art to discuss, I also like to discuss other Brazilian martial arts such as Capoeira which is a fascinating art all on its own.


----------



## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

Buka said:


> I respectfully think you are misinformed.


How am I misinformed? Why would a kicker/striker need to be able to fight off grapplers if the fights they fight don't allow that?


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## elder999 (Feb 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> The UFC was a bad example. What I meant to say is this, before the UFC the Gracies were challenging all sorts of top level kick boxers and people who specialized in kicking/striking arts. People such as Joe Lewis, Benny Urquidez, ect. and the challenges were being turned down? Why? Because these top level kicker/strikers knew that they didn't train to fight under rules where both striking and grappling was allowed as the Gracies did and so they knew they would lose. The Gracies trained to fight under rules that allowed both striking and grappling whereas these other fighters trained under rules that only allowed striking. Since they didn't train to fight in fights where both striking and grappling was allowed they would lose and they knew it. And so they didn't take on the challenges.


Both of these posts are downright ignorant in their choice of examples.

Benny Urquidez has always been a competent grappler, who trained with Gene LeBell and Gokor Chivichyan. The Gracies challenged him, but when they found out he was more than just a kickboxing world champion they backed down. Another version of the story has the Gracies backing out after Urquidez pled  poverty, and offered up his belt instead of $100,000...the whole "not trained," thing, though, is a complete canard.

It's hard to believe Joe Lewis ever backed out of a fight with anyone, but I don't know of the Gracies ever challenging him....


----------



## PhotonGuy (Feb 8, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Both of these posts are downright ignorant in their choice of examples.
> 
> Benny Urquidez has always been a competent grappler, who trained with Gene LeBell and Gokor Chivichyan. The Gracies challenged him, but when they found out he was more than just a kickboxing world champion they backed down. Another version of the story has the Gracies backing out after Urquidez pled  poverty, and offered up his belt instead of $100,000...the whole "not trained," thing, though, is a complete canard.
> 
> It's hard to believe Joe Lewis ever backed out of a fight with anyone, but I don't know of the Gracies ever challenging him....



Alright I never heard those sides of the stories and I wasn't aware that Benny had a grappling background. The stories about the Gracies challenging Benny and Joe Lewis, my source of information was from the Gracies themselves.


----------



## elder999 (Feb 8, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Alright I never heard those sides of the stories and I wasn't aware that Benny had a grappling background. The stories about the Gracies challenging Benny and Joe Lewis, my source of information was from the Gracies themselves.



And mine are Gene, Gokor and Benny.


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## Buka (Feb 8, 2015)

The original Gracie challenge was for publicity for Gracie Jiu-jitsu. Sure as well worked from a publicity standpoint, nobody ever heard of Gracie Jiu-jitsu thirty years ago.The challenge was open to anyone, not specifically/only for people involved in kicking/striking arts.

The confusion over the challenge towards Joe Lewis is a common one, you're not alone. It was actually a challenge by Helio Gracie to Joe *Louis*, the boxing champion, back in the mid nineteen forties. Again, it was for publicity. 

Royce Gracie challenged Mike Tyson to a no holds barred scrap in 1997, "anytime, anywhere". Again, it was for publicity. Tyson was making upwards of fifteen million bucks a fight at the time, he wasn't about to fight anyone for free. But the publicity actually worked, it was mentioned in the New York Times. (I always wondered how they pulled that off) Tyson had already lost to Holyfield at the time, but Tyson still had the marquee name. Some might say Royce was lucky, Tyson would have bit him like he did to Holyfield in their second fight. But Royce, had already been bitten, right on the ear (just like Holyfield/Tyson2) during his first UFC championship fight with Gordeau.

A lot of the Gracie challenges were the reverse of what most people think. People heard about it and came TO Rorian's school and challenged them. Which they happily accepted right there on the spot. Some of the guys that lost became Gracie students the same day. Jason DeLucia is probably the most notable, he also fought in UFC 1 as an alternate to fill time because all matches were short ones. (real short ones!) He had been a Gracie student for several years at the time.

As for Benny the Jet, there's all kinds of rumors as to what did and didn't happen, what was and wasn't said, I have no knowledge and won't speculate, especially since I'm a fan of both men. But as Elder has already said, The Jet was a student of Judo Gene. He was one hell of a Martial Artist, not just a kickboxer. 

Bottom line in the Gracie challenge, at least to my experience with the family, was "do whatever you want, we don't care."


----------



## geezer (Feb 8, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Folks,
> Bjj is only one Brazilian...



Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, but BJJ and even Capoera are newcomers as far as truly _traditional _Brazilian martial arts go. By contrast the guy pictured below is a real Brazilian traditionalist. And with open rules in his own hood, I'd bet on him!

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5764935531_d03188cea9.jpg

....or this guy:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Achuar_con_cerbatana_(Amazonía_Ecuatoriana).jpg


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## RTKDCMB (Feb 9, 2015)

drop bear said:


> boxing cover blocks crescent kicks.



That is just about the worst way to defend against a crescent kick. The only way that will work is if you get in very close to your opponent. If you try to stop a crescent kick with a boxing cover head on you will just loose your head. One thing you are taught in sparring where I come from is that you don't block crescent kicks unless you absolutely have to. The last place you want to be when your opponent is doing a crescent kick is in it's path.

_Capoeira uses crescent kicks_ (keeping it on topic).


----------



## Drose427 (Feb 9, 2015)

RTKDCMB said:


> That is just about the worst way to defend against a crescent kick. The only way that will work is if you get in very close to your opponent. If you try to stop a crescent kick with a boxing cover head on you will just loose your head. One thing you are taught in sparring where I come from is that you don't block crescent kicks unless you absolutely have to. The last place you want to be when your opponent is doing a crescent kick is in it's path.
> 
> _Capoeira uses crescent kicks_ (keeping it on topic).



A properly extended crescent kick with shear that arm right off while clocking you in the head. We teach 2 defenses. Check the chamber if youre quick enough, or get out of the way


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## LibbyW (Feb 9, 2015)

geezer said:


> Forgive me if someone has already pointed this out, but BJJ and even Capoera are newcomers as far as truly _traditional _Brazilian martial arts go. By contrast the guy pictured below is a real Brazilian traditionalist. And with open rules in his own hood, I'd bet on him!
> 
> http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5764935531_d03188cea9.jpg
> 
> ...



Yikes, picture 2 ... that is the biggest blowgun I've ever seen.
I toured Brazil on holiday and met a few indigenous people who still live tribal lifestyles. I'd probably put my money on any of those guys as well 
L


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## BeeBrian (Feb 9, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Since they don't have a folder devoted specifically to Brazilian martial arts and so I started this thread. Everybody knows about BJJ but there are other Brazilian martial arts such as Capoeira which is perhaps not as famous as BJJ but is still very fascinating and has quite the history, how it was created by slaves and disguised as a dance so their masters wouldn't know they were training in a fighting art.



I like Vale Tudo. It's more no-holds-barred than mainstream MMA. I think some people think it's mindless brutality, but it takes a focused mind to keep yourself from getting groin-kicked.


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