# eastern medicine



## theneuhauser (Aug 16, 2002)

there hasnt been very much discussion on this subject, so i thought i would open it up here:

ive been reading a good book lately called between heaven and earth .  and it made me wonder if there are any acupuncturists or herbalists on the forum?

also, does anyone have any interesting personal experiences with traditional eastern medicine?


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## Nightingale (Aug 16, 2002)

I have an experience with accupuncture...

I think the big difference between Eastern and Western medicine is that Western medicine is about treating the disease. Eastern medicine is about treating the person.

I'd been having heartburn every single day for months... tried stuff like prilosec and nexium, and finally ended up on aciphex, and it helped, but not enough.  The pain actually landed me in the ER a couple of times, and they would give me some really strong medicine and some liquid lidocaine to swallow, and that would fix it, until the next time I bent over or laid down.  I had all the x-rays and they couldn't find a physical cause. It was diagnosed as stress, which makes sense, as anyone who knows me knows that my schedule is absolutely insane...  The problem was causing pain right behind my sternum, and chest pain is really scary under any circumstance, because even though you KNOW what it is because you've had six doctors diagnose the same thing, its always in the back of your mind that they might be wrong, and why isn't the medication working, and you get scared and upset, which, because the problem is stress induced, makes everything much worse.  Its a vicious cycle... you have pain because you can't relax, and you can't relax because the pain is frightening, and you can't eat ANYTHING you like or anything with any flavor (like anything sweet, fried, containing alcohol, spicy, containing citrus or anything else acidic, anything rich and basically anything that tastes good), so you get stressed out over food as well.

I was at a graduation party for a good friend of mine. A friend of his father's, who is an eastern medicine doctor, was there.  In front of this gentleman, I turned down a piece of cake, saying that just looking at it would give me heartburn.  He grabbed my hand and said "come with me. I can fix it."  I looked at my friend, because I didnt' know this guy, and my friend said "go. let him try it."  I figured that I'd be no worse off if it didn't work, so I let him.

He went out to the car and got his bag with his needles (all new and sterile, of course) and took me into the back room and, after getting my medical history, stuck the needles in spots on my face, hands and feet.  The needles didn't hurt, just stung a little as they went in, and then I couldn't really feel them, but my whole body kind of felt weird... almost meditative, I guess.  I think I might have actually fallen asleep.  I felt really...well, not exactly weak, but my body felt very heavy.  It wasn't that I couldn't move, it was that I was so relaxed I just didn't want to.

After a while (don't remember how long) he took the needles out and said "there. all better. go eat cake."  I was really nervous about eating the cake, but it was chocolate cake with chocolate frosting and strawberry filling, and my friend was waving it in my face, so I ate it.  And I felt fine.  My friend said he'd never seen someone get so excited over a couple of bites of chocolate cake.

I now only get the heartburn about once every other week, and it isn't very bad at all.  Before, it was keeping me up all night, and I had no energy because I wasn't getting any sleep.  Now, although I still have it once in a while, its never bad enough to keep me awake.  I still take the aciphex, because when I stopped taking it, the problem occurred a little more often, but nothing like it was originally.  I try to relax a little more often. And now I can eat anything I want... Salsa, anyone?


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## Chris from CT (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> *ive been reading a good book lately called between heaven and earth .  and it made me wonder if there are any acupuncturists or herbalists on the forum?*



I haven't read that that book yet.  How is it so far?



> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> *also, does anyone have any interesting personal experiences with traditional eastern medicine? *



I'm going into my second year of acupuncture school.  I am by far no expert.  

Nightingale, that's great that you've had a good reaction to your treatment!  I don't know how long you have suffered from that, but in general, a long term (chronic) illness/injury would be treated in a number of treatments where as a sudden (acute) illness/injury could be handled in perhaps one or a couple of sessions for long term results (of course it depends on the severity of the injury also). I would talk the that person again to see what he thinks about long term relief from acupuncture. 

Take care


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## Nightingale (Aug 17, 2002)

when he treated me, the problem had been going on for two months.  The guy lives in New York, and was just out visiting my friend's father.  I'd love to find someone else so I could keep getting treatments to see if it would fix the problem completely, but I wouldn't begin to know how to find someone qualified, and my insurance wouldn't cover it, so I'd have no way to pay them.


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## Chris from CT (Aug 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> * I'd love to find someone else so I could keep getting treatments to see if it would fix the problem completely, but I wouldn't begin to know how to find someone qualified, and my insurance wouldn't cover it, so I'd have no way to pay them. *



Depending on your insurance provider, you might be covered for acupunture and not know it.  Some acupuncturists accept insurance while others don't.

To find someone qualified you could go to...

Here you can find a practitioner that is part of the Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine Alliance.
http://www.healthy.net/asp/Associations/assocsearch.asp?AssocID=1

This website has Western medical doctors who have additional training in acupuncture.  Many of these would accept insurance.
http://www.medicalacupuncture.org/findadoc/

Here is one for California specifically.
http://www.csomaonline.org/pages/search.php

If you are not covered, but would still like to get treatment you can look for an accredited school of acupuncture and/or oriental medicine in your area.  There you can usually receive treatments by advanced students under the supervision of a licenced practitioner for about $15.00 - $25.00 a session.  To find an accredited school you can check the list put out by The Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM). 

http://www.acaom.org/SchoolistNov2001.htm

I hope this helps.
Take care


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## theneuhauser (Aug 17, 2002)

Great resources chris! thanks alot. how much schooling is left for you? you could be our resident expert on acupuncture. 

i actually have a good experience also, nightengale. just didnt want to throw it out there at the start. i was 12 years old and i had walking pneumonia for about 5 weeks. it sucked my right lung was drowning with fluid, and when i breathed, you could hear the bubbling sound coming from my diaphragm. the antibiotics were not doing anything, and i was slowly getting worse. my mother took me in to see afriend in chicago and he checked me with a steth, and felt my "pulses" on both wrists.

the guy tapped some needles into me, i stayed on the table for awhile and went home. at first there was no difference in my condition. but after i woke up the next morning, there wasnt an ounce of fluid in my lung and i felt fine. i still find it difficult to explain.



btw chris,  the book is really good. its fairly general but it contains alot of good information on the different areas of eastern medicine. if you havent gone into five element theory at school, then this would give you a great head start, it might also be useful as reference material. maybe ill throw down a quick book review as a separate thread.


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## Nightingale (Aug 17, 2002)

thanks much for the info!


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## Roland (Aug 17, 2002)

A friend of mine practice it, it is neat, works wonders, hard to describe.
kinda like acu-pressure, massage and chiropractic therapies and energy work too.


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## theneuhauser (Aug 17, 2002)

yes ive heard of bioorthonomy, its a new term. i cant see the difference from napropathy, though.


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## Roland (Aug 18, 2002)

Could you describe it a little for me.
Thank you.


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## Chris from CT (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> *Great resources chris! thanks alot. how much schooling is left for you? *



Not a problem.  I have two more years to go.  Cross your fingers!  



> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> *you could be our resident expert on acupuncture.  *


  Maybe someday.  



> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> *maybe ill throw down a quick book review as a separate thread. *



That would rock!  Please do.

Take care


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## theneuhauser (Aug 18, 2002)

actually, it think i misspelled it roland, its Naprapath. their basic belief is that alot of ailments are caused by muscles and ligaments and joints, but generally they incorporate massage and acupressure in their treatment. ithink that this new bioorthonomy stuff is an excuse for the reikki people to appear more scientific and less spiritual to the public.


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## arnisador (Aug 18, 2002)

Naprapathy is not Naturopathy then?


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## theneuhauser (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Naprapathy is not Naturopathy then? *




no, a naturopath is more like a dietician that can prescribe you natural remedies for common ailments, they usually dont do body work, unless otherwise qualified. a naprapath is a specialist, like a chiropractor with flair.


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## arnisador (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



This is true in most states but not all. Eleven states license naturopathic physicians:


                         Alaska
                         Arizona
                         Connecticut
                         Hawaii
                         Oregon 
                         Maine 
                         Montana
                         New Hampshire
                         Utah 
                         Vermont
                         Washington

(Also, Puerto Rico and the US Virgin Islands.) See here or  here or here and note that minor surgery may be performed by a naturopath.

In most states naturopaths have mail-order degrees and act as nutritionists, but in some states they are actually physicians (with more limited scope than a MD or DO but still able to act as a primary-care physician).


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## theneuhauser (Aug 18, 2002)

youre so right. i shouldnt have made such a sweeping generalization about that field.
it would be better put to explain that naturopaths are primarily concerned with your internal wellbeing and health and achieving this through natural practices and medicines.



btw, you know way too much about everything, i envy you, hate you, & idolize you all at the same time.


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## arnisador (Aug 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by theneuhauser _
> 
> *btw, you know way too much about everything, i envy you, hate you, & idolize you all at the same time. *



Don't hate me because I have no life! Work ties me to this computer all day long.


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## arnisador (Sep 9, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Eleven states license naturopathic physicians*



I understand that it's now 12 states and that, additionally, Kansas will begin registering naturopathic physicians in Jan. 2003. This is the first step towards eventual licensure, which is expected. Source Bastyr University, one of 4 schools in the U.S. which offer an accredited N.D. degree.


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## Idaten (Oct 16, 2002)

:asian: 

Would anyone happen to know any good resources for herbal medicine...or could post a list of mixtures.  I'm trying to get closer to the natural aspects of training and living.


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## Nightingale (Oct 16, 2002)

I've always found "Natural Health" magazine to be a good resource.


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## Idaten (Oct 17, 2002)

Domo arigato gozaimasu, Nightangale-sama.

I'll defiately look into that.


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## theneuhauser (Oct 26, 2002)

here's a quick reccomendation

Chinese Natural Cures  written by Dr Henry Lu


its a fairly comprehensive source for information on plants and herbs, treatments ailments, and medicine. organized like a big reference manual. i defenitely reccomend it.


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## lhommedieu (Nov 6, 2002)

Re. TCM:  As stated in a post on another thread, TCM is the "official" form of Chinese medicine in the PRC.  Now that China has become somewhat more open than in the past, some of the "old" schools of Chinese medicine are beginning to resurface.

Re. resources about herbs.

Daniel Reid's Chinese Herbal Medicine is a good introduction.  There is a chapter about one of my teacher's teachers - an old Chinese doctor from Taiwan, that explains the connection between Chinese medicine and martial arts.

Bob Flaws' Shaolin Secret Training Formulas has several formulas for martial arts injuries.  I would consult an herbalist before using them, however.

John Ramholtz (sp?) has a book on training formulas for martial artists. Again, I would consult an acupuncturist/herbalist before using them.

Bensky and Gamble's Materia Medica is the definitive source for professional herbalists.

I am a recent graduate from acupuncture school and have been training in Chinese Die Da ("hit and fall") medicine for about 5 years now.  My teacher is a well-known acupuncturist in NYC who specializes in sports and martial arts injuries.  He also teaches courses on Die Da medicine.  If anyone is interested in learning more, please feel free to contact me.

I also have a website at:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/index.htm
Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Chris from CT (Nov 7, 2002)

Hey Steve.  I didn't know you were a part of MartialTalk!  We met last year at a class or obsevation/GR.

Congrats on graduating from Tri-State.  I'm still there for another two.  :shrug:  

Take care


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## lhommedieu (Nov 7, 2002)

Hey Chris,

Nice to hear from you. I remember you well from a class at TriState last spring.  I'm currently studying for my NCCAOM exam on Saturday.

I think that Tom Bisio will be treaching at next year's Spring Intensive.  I hope that you get a chance to see him demonstrate a Chinese medicine geared towards martial arts traumatology.
He and a guy named Frank Butler also teach a series of courses related to Die Da medicine that include Tui Na, herbology, Qi Gong, and acupuncture in preparation for bonesetting.  Worth a look at.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Chris from CT (Nov 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Nice to hear from you. I remember you well from a class at TriState last spring.  I'm currently studying for my NCCAOM exam on Saturday.*



Good luck!!!   



> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *I hope that you get a chance to see him demonstrate a Chinese medicine geared towards martial arts traumatology. *



Yeah, last year he and Frank did a class on "Trauma Medicine/External Applications of Herbs."

Take care.


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## lhommedieu (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chris from CT _
> 
> *Good luck!!!
> 
> ...



Chris - 

Thanks - I took the exam yesterday and am pretty sure I passed.  Macciocia (the "silver book") is great for understanding the patterns, and a better read than CAM.

"The Trauma Medicine/External Applications of Herbs" course is a great resource - I took it a couple of years ago. 

Re. Herbal medicine for martial artists, the following are also useful (in addition to my earler post):

Shaolin and Taoist Herbal Training Formulas, by James Ramholtz

Chinese Massage:  A Handbook of Therapeutic Massage, Compiled at the Anhui Medical School Hospital by A.R. Lade and J. Wong.

Orthopedics and Traumatolgy (Vol. 14 of the English-Chinese Encyclopedia of Practical TCM).

Musculoskeletal Disorders , by Alon Marcus

See also The Complete Book of Chinese Health and Healing, by Daniel Reid, for a good general introduction to Chinese Medicine.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Chris from CT (Nov 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Thanks - I took the exam yesterday and am pretty sure I passed. *



That's great! :cheers:



> _Originally posted by lhommedieu _
> *Macciocia (the "silver book") is great for understanding the patterns, and a better read than CAM.  *



Yeah, we're doing our TCM Patterns classes with Sharon Zhao right now.  I have been using Maciocia's book for extra help on the patterns.

I will check out some of those books you mentioned.

Thanks & take care.


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## lhommedieu (Dec 30, 2002)

Please note that I have updated my "Training Resources" page on my website to include a couple of Chinese Herbal Products for martial arts injuries.  These are:

1. A Dit Da Jow for stick hits to the fingers, hands, wrists, etc., as well as for any recent trauma to the muscles, ligaments, tendons, and bones.
2. An herbal soak for chronic injuries and old injuries that don't seem to be getting better.

The URL is:

http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze4fs8i/training_resources.htm

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu (Jan 1, 2003)

I was surfing the net and found an excellent website re. eastern medicine:

http://www.ancientway.com/index.html

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu (Jan 4, 2003)

Another good source, this time with patent remedies:

http://www.cyberkwoon.com/html/article.php?sid=257

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## arnisador (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I understand that it's now 12 states and that, additionally, Kansas will begin registering naturopathic physicians in Jan. 2003. *



California now will be licensing Naturopaths as "independent doctors":
http://www.bastyr.edu/alumni/calicensure.asp

This is a big step for naturopaths.


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