# Extentions



## BlackPhoenix

I see the *EXTENTIONS* taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work.  Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt.  You should'nt be waring any rank.  *EXTENTIONS* are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure.  If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff.  It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down.  *But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic.*  Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do.  Use logic.    

Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned.  But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing.  A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic.  *A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of* *danger.*  It's that simple.  *"Sometimes Less Is More".*  A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.

How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ?  Be honest.

This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo.  Just my opinion.

I think that *EXTENTIONS* should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum.  Not for ranking.


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## MisterMike

I think the extensions build on previously learned principles. I learned the original 32 system and manyof them relate to groundwork (opponent is onthe ground, you are stomping with the feet).

I agree, most techniques do not need the extension, but some provide "what-if" solutions.

Do you think most of the kenpo techniques without extensions are meant to be run to completion? Some of them there Brown belt techniques go pretty darn long too. Kinda makes you go -hmmmm


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## Kenpo Yahoo

> I learned the original 32 system and manyof them relate to groundwork



I'm not sure I would call this groundwork, but that's a different thread all together.  

As for the extensions, I think you're right.  Alot of kenpo techniques, even in the AKKI, go well beyond what I would call a real ending. The way Mr. Mills and the Board are teaching the AKKI techniques, most of them will be done by the 3rd or 4th move, that is if the opponent isn't crushed by the second or even the first move.  Learning the appropriate body mechanics along with the appropriate targets and angles will go along way to making this a possibility.  

However, I look at these extra moves as a redundant (meaning backup) or fail safe system.  If you are overwhelmed by the adrenal dump that sets in during such a stressful situation you might not execute the first one, two, or even three moves with any sort of efficiency.  Isn't it nice to know that you can fall back on the rest.  Besides, a large portion of the techniques contain similiar positions.  Within the AKKI curriculum, for instance, we have several Guillotine (or choking) techniques.  Depending on our attackers resistance, if any  :xtrmshock, we can roll from one particular guillotine tech to another or even bypass the choke and move into a strikedown, buckle, sweep, or throw.  By discovering, categorizing, and practicing with these similiar points, you can effectively respond to a number of possible scenarios. 

just my opinion.


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> I see the *EXTENTIONS* taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work.  Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt.  You should'nt be waring any rank.  *EXTENTIONS* are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure.  If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff.  It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down.  *But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic.*  Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do.  Use logic.



I'm gonna assume that you have no background in Kenpo at all.  The extensions are the "What if" or "Even if" methods of dealing with the attack, when the tech., in its 'ideal' phase does not work.  This can be due to the attacker punching differently, moving differently, etc.  In every art, they have the "What if" senarios.  I train in BJJ as well as Arnis, and they both have them!  You say just keep hitting.  Ok--but is that all you're gonna do?  If that hitting isnt working, then you're gonna need something else to do.  As for rank--IMO, its not the color of the belt that matters, its the skill that the person has.      



> Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned.  But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing.  A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic.  *A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of* *danger.*  It's that simple.  *"Sometimes Less Is More".*  A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.



As for a boxer.  A boxer is a one dimensional fighter.  All they  do is punch, while someone who trains Kenpo, also kicks, and works strikes that a boxer does not train.  IMO, if you really want to be well rounded, you'll be comfortable in all the ranges- punching, kicking, clinching, and grappling.  Also, you're going to fight like you train.  What happens when a boxer clinches? The ref breaks them and they start again, from a neutral position.  If a boxer is facing someone who understands the clinch and grappling, the boxer is gonna be in a world of hurt.  



> How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ?  Be honest.



When you're fighting, you want to take the other person out of their game.  If facing a boxer, the last thing I'm gonna do is trade punches with them.  Instead, I'll work kicks, especially the low line kicks, in which a boxer does NOT train and does not know how to defend against.  In the clinch, rather than work punches, which being that close, are really not going to be that effective, doing an eye gouge, elbow, knee, and headbutt, and then taking it to the ground would be the best way to go.  



> This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo.  Just my opinion.



Well, that all depends on who you talk to.  



> I think that *EXTENTIONS* should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum.  Not for ranking.



The extensions are not looked at until Brown Belt.  The student first has to get a good understanding of the base techs. and then they can expand on the rest.  

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> I see the *EXTENTIONS* taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. *EXTENTIONS* are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. *But your instructor and yourself have to be very realistic.* Do not make students believe they can do something that they are not able to do. Use logic.
> 
> Example...A boxer trains jab, cross, hook, uppercut, footwork, bob, weave, ride, role, slip, etc. combinations and variations of the above mentioned. But I feel most important, they spar for the real thing. A boxer does'nt need to learn alot of other combative training outside of just keeping his or her stuff basic. *A boxer will know to keep on hitting until out of* *danger.* It's that simple. *"Sometimes Less Is More".* A good base or part of a base technique should do just fine.
> 
> How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ? Be honest.
> 
> This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo. Just my opinion.
> 
> I think that *EXTENTIONS* should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum. Not for ranking.


Maybe because you're not getting the system the way it was designed. Inexperience sucks huh?

Dark Lord

P.S.  spelling and grammar count


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## Bill Lear

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> How many kenpoists out there think they would end up going head to head with a well trained boxer or a good street fighter ?  Be honest.
> 
> This is not an attack on Mr. Parker's system of Kenpo.  Just my opinion.
> 
> I think that *EXTENTIONS* should be taught as a separate concept or idea outside of the cirriculum.  Not for ranking.



The last time I got into it on the street I had to pull the guys broken front teeth out of my right elbow. Head to head? Not quite. More like head to elbow, before I choked him out. 

I guess that Ed Parker stuff really works (at least for me). Not an attack on you or anything, just an observation. I think the extensions should stay. They are there for a reason, not just filler material. 

:ultracool


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

The extensions should stay...as should all the variations if you are a Tracy student.

A big mistake in martial arts training is to assume that ALL fights can be won with a single blow or short combination.  That is like trying to win every game of chess in the first four moves.  You may be able to do that once in a blue moon, but you can't rely on it.  

The extensions are a great tool for learning to continue fighting after the initial flurry.  Sure, you have to master the basics first, but having a larger repertoire of movements you can execute can give you a serious advantage.

One key in making the base techniques and/or the extensions effective is how you train.  Training against resisting opponents who fight back when you try and execute the techniques will show you the value of the extensions and of sparring.


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## Old Guy

The extensions are also there to give different reference points.  In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique.  Techniques are not necessarily the end-all.  They are just ideas.  The extensions build on these ideas.

For instance, guy throws a kick.  You catch it.  What now?  Start in the middle of Dance of Death.  Without the extension, where's the dance?  It would not be effective.  Filler?  Not necessary?  Maybe.  Good to know?  Probably.

OG


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## MJS

Old Guy said:
			
		

> The extensions are also there to give different reference points.  In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique.  Techniques are not necessarily the end-all.  They are just ideas.  The extensions build on these ideas.
> 
> For instance, guy throws a kick.  You catch it.  What now?  Start in the middle of Dance of Death.  Without the extension, where's the dance?  It would not be effective.  Filler?  Not necessary?  Maybe.  Good to know?  Probably.
> 
> OG



Very good point here.  I've said this before when I would be teaching a SD class.  From time to time, I'd throw out attacks that the students have not learned a defense for yet.  9 times out of 10, they'd stand there, not knowing what to do.  I'd ask them if they knew how to block, punch, kick, move, etc. and they would always say yes.  I'd explain to them that the techs. are just there to give a reference point.  In a fight, you cant possibly, as the attacker is getting ready to punch you, stand there and say, "Ok, now which one of my 50 punch techs. am I gonna use?"  Instead, you need to react.  You may find yourself doing parts of 2 or 3 different techs.  As I said in my first post, the ext. are there to take care of the "What if/Even if" situations.

DKL brought up a very good point.  There is a chance that if one isnt learning the system properly, then how can you have an understanding of it???

Mike


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## MisterMike

MJS said:
			
		

> DKL brought up a very good point.  There is a chance that if one isnt learning the system properly, then how can you have an understanding of it???
> 
> Mike



Easy, you have an understanding of a different system  :uhyeah:


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## bdparsons

It seems the real issue here is how a system (in this case Kenpo) trains to be able to adapt to the changing flow of a hand-to-hand encounter. Personally I view extensions as a tool in training spontaneous action/reaction. I agree with the individual who said it's really a matter of recognition. The gist of training in any martial art, including western-style boxing is the ability to recognize what to defend against, at least initially. Training extensions in Kenpo gives you something else, another position to recognize.

In the IKCA we use a process known as "Blending and Borrowing", similar to what other Kenpoists would call grafting. The process of adapting mid-stream because something doesn't go "ideally" is just a matter of repetition and recognition. But if I haven't seen it before, I won't recognize it. Is there a limit? Sure, but remember you're only needing to recognize snapshots of body position, not entire moves. This is what a Kenpoist is reacting to. then acting upon.

Learning extensions leads to developing extensions which leads to the ability to spontaneously flow in an encounter. The more you're required to think in training, the less you'll have to think on the street.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## MJS

MisterMike said:
			
		

> Easy, you have an understanding of a different system  :uhyeah:



True.  We're both doing EPAK.  Only difference is the way that it was taught.  I have been fortunate to chat with Clyde a few times, and hes enlightened me to many different things.  I definately have a different outlook on the art now!

Mike


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## BlackPhoenix

There are some really good points here that were made. That's the really cool thing about Kenpo isn't it. Freedom of thought and expression. Just to let some of these people know two things...I have trained in Kenpo for a long time and two I have had a couple of high ranking first generation instructors agree with me. But that is alson their opinion of thoughts. Respect to all of you in Kenpo.


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## BlackPhoenix

This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base.  With some exceptions.





			
				Old Guy said:
			
		

> The extensions are also there to give different reference points. In a fight, you may not find yourself at a beginning of a technique, but recognise a point in the middle of a technique. Techniques are not necessarily the end-all. They are just ideas. The extensions build on these ideas.
> 
> For instance, guy throws a kick. You catch it. What now? Start in the middle of Dance of Death. Without the extension, where's the dance? It would not be effective. Filler? Not necessary? Maybe. Good to know? Probably.
> 
> OG


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## BlackPhoenix

Good point here also.  But I don't think you were able to do that from learning an extention.  You reacted and it worked.  Right on.  Shame on him for starting up with you...LOL





			
				Bill Lear said:
			
		

> The last time I got into it on the street I had to pull the guys broken front teeth out of my right elbow. Head to head? Not quite. More like head to elbow, before I choked him out.
> 
> I guess that Ed Parker stuff really works (at least for me). Not an attack on you or anything, just an observation. I think the extensions should stay. They are there for a reason, not just filler material.
> 
> :ultracool


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base. With some exceptions.


Wrong again.   There are movements not seen in the base techs. and you only see them once in the extenSions, like the throw in Destructive Twins, the downward punch to the bladder in Thrusting Salute, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

My suggestion, get another instructor that understands the art as a whole before slicing it up.


Dark Lord


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## 8253

i personally dont consider any extention as filler or busy work, i consider it as broadening horizons.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

My only issue with extensions is personal...I can't remember them. After a time, they all start feeling/looking alike, and my wee-little brain gets confused. I have to make mental shortcuts like, "when in doubt, cover out".

There's a little corner of my brain where obscure facts from grade school lodge themselves, and I can't forget them if I try. The opposite problem is finding an obscure corner for things I want to remember. I forgot to remember to forget the things I no longer need to remember.

Just goes to show you that...um...wait a minute...I was going somewhere with this, but I can't recall.

Oh well. Maybe it'll come back to me later, when I need it.

Dave


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> This is a very good point, but mind you that if you train the base techniques realistic enough ( therre are many drills and ways of doing this ), you'll find that what you do in the extentions is pretty much the same as what you can get out of the base.  With some exceptions.



Gotta disagree with you here.  You're making it sound like if you train the 'ideal' tech over and over, then that is all that you'll need?  What about the "what if/even if" situations?  Thats what the extensions are all about....the What If!!!  What are you going to do if that "ideal" phase tech. doesnt work or if something goes wrong?  You had better have something to fall back on.

Mike


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Just to let some of these people know two things...I have trained in Kenpo for a long time and two I have had a couple of high ranking first generation instructors agree with me. But that is alson their opinion of thoughts. Respect to all of you in Kenpo.



And exactly is how long? And who are the first gen. Inst. that you're referring to??

Mike


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## Brother John

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> I see the *EXTENTIONS* taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work.  Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt.  You should'nt be waring any rank.


It all depends on what you think they are there to teach you.
I don't think that the techniques are taught in our schools or trained by our practitioners in order to perform them verbatim on the street. No no. We may only needs bits of this and bits of that...we will simply 'perform' when it comes to the street. A technique is vocabulary. An extension of a technique is just further vocabulary. Simple as that.

Your Brother
John


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## Bill Lear

Years ago a friend of mine and I came up with extensions to the yellow belt techniques. Specifically, we added a hangmans choke to the end of Mace of Aggression. When the opportunity presented itself to me last February... I executed this technique and the extension (the one my friend and I came up with) as a conditioned response. Almost like I was on autopilot.

I have to say that I agree with Mr. Parker's anaology of techniques being like words of motion. When someone talks to me I don't scramble to create new words at the last minute to converse with them, but instead draw upon my exhistant knowledge to reply intelligently and effectively. I can admit that people these days have, however, come up with some pretty crazy things to say sometimes (i.e. bootylicious).  :ultracool


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## BlackPhoenix

Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.

All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case. I've seen it a million time at demos, seminars and tournaments... You've got practioners executing below average base techs and even worse extentions. To the layman person observing it can be an illusion of expertise. To a expert or real fighter it can sometimes turn out to be a joke. In our Kenpo industry we have thousand of Black Belts who may know most of or all of the physical material...But ask them if they truely understand what is under ther surface of just the Base Techniques. You'll get a different answer.

For most practitioners it always faster, faster, faster...touch, touch, touch, instead of hitting hard, harder and even harder with accuracy on the base. 

I'm not saying that a technique in the Dojo is what it should be on the street.



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Gotta disagree with you here. You're making it sound like if you train the 'ideal' tech over and over, then that is all that you'll need? What about the "what if/even if" situations? Thats what the extensions are all about....the What If!!! What are you going to do if that "ideal" phase tech. doesnt work or if something goes wrong? You had better have something to fall back on.
> 
> Mike


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case. I've seen it a million time at demos, seminars and tournaments... You've got practioners executing below average base techs and even worse extentions. To the layman person observing it can be an illusion of expertise. To a expert or real fighter it can sometimes turn out to be a joke. In our Kenpo industry we have thousand of Black Belts who may know most of or all of the physical material...But ask them if they truely understand what is under ther surface of just the Base Techniques. You'll get a different answer.
> 
> For most practitioners it always faster, faster, faster...touch, touch, touch, instead of hitting hard, harder and even harder with accuracy on the base.
> 
> I'm not saying that a technique in the Dojo is what it should be on the street.



Dude- I understand what you're saying but I dont think that you understand what I'm saying as well as some of the others here.  First, I would hope that by the time the student reached the level where the extensions are taught, that he/she would have a very good understanding of the base tech.  The ext. are taught at brown, and I'd really hope that by that time, Delayed Sword would be able to be done in your sleep.  Second, there is no way that a real fight can be predicted.  You always need to take into account the what if situation.  That is where the ext. come into play.  Even with a base tech. the chance of it being executed fully night not happen, but you need to have something to fall back on.  You seem to be in some fantasy world where you think that the 'one punch, one kill'  is a sure shot.  Not the case.  If you do execute a tech. and the person is still standing, and comes at you again, or if during the course of the tech. it does not go as textbook as you'd hope, then again, thats where the ext. are gonna come into play.  

By the way.  I'm still waiting for a reply to my question that I asked.  You said that you've been doing Kenpo for a long time and that you only want to learn from a 1st gen. teacher.  My question:  How long have you been training, and who are all the 1st gen. Inst. that you're talking to???

Mike


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques.



Well, if thats the case, the Inst whos teaching must not be any good if he lets them by with not knowing the base techs. down.

Mike


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## Ceicei

MJS said:
			
		

> By the way. I'm still waiting for a reply to my question that I asked. You said that you've been doing Kenpo for a long time and that you only want to learn from a 1st gen. teacher. My question: How long have you been training, and who are all the 1st gen. Inst. that you're talking to???
> 
> Mike


I am intriqued by this question also and curious for the answer.  

- Ceicei


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## Brother John

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Try to get your mind out of the Dojo-Kenpo phase for just a second and think about what happens in the real world.
> 
> All I'm trying to say is that sure, extentions can be really fun to learn and explore. But not enough practioners get even good at the Base Techniques. Alot of practitioners cling to idea that by learning extention makes them a better fighter or that they know more. " Sometimes Less Is More " could hold true in this case.



I agree. But I think you are missing the point.
I agree that the base technique must be up to a high standard BEFORE the student is even shown the extension! No doubt. Any you are correct, MORE doesn't essentially mean better! No no. But each extention is a new experience, a new or different bit of vocabulary that adds...in the end...to your overall ability.
Put it like this, what if (my favorite Kenpo question) the info in the extentions were distilled and put into their own technique...independent of any other technique before or after them... would you still have the same problem with them??? Then your argument would be more like saying "I don't see why we need all those techniques past brown belt! Some haven't even gotten good at the pre-black belt techniques.... the pre-browns are enough.." See what I'm saying???
Your Brother
John


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## MJS

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I am intriqued by this question also and curious for the answer.
> 
> - Ceicei



LOL! Yeah, I know.  And if you'll notice, we've yet to get a reply!!  Something else to make you wonder.

Mike


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## BlackPhoenix

And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with.  It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C.  I've also gotten different info from all of them too.  I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.  



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> LOL! Yeah, I know. And if you'll notice, we've yet to get a reply!! Something else to make you wonder.
> 
> Mike


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with.  It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C.  I've also gotten different info from all of them too.  I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.



Thanks for the reply.  I had the chance quite a while ago to attend a seminar with Palanzo.  So, tell me something....with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

MJS said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply. I had the chance quite a while ago to attend a seminar with Palanzo. So, tell me something....with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??
> 
> Mike


Mike:

I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it.  Water to a fish kinda thing.  I'm that way with "i before e" words.

D.


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## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Mike:
> 
> I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it.  Water to a fish kinda thing.  I'm that way with "i before e" words.
> 
> D.



LOL! Yup, you're probably right on that one!!

Mike


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## BlackPhoenix

Well to be honest...some do but some don't.  And this is all for different reasons.  Also alot of this could have to do with the time period they trained with Mr.Parker.   I do agree that The extention can teach some cool things.  But there are two side to everything.  For myself...there is the fighting aspect of it and there is the exploration of the art side to it also. ( Mental, Spiritual and Physical... Dragon, Phoenix, Tiger ).

with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??

Mike[/QUOTE]


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## Brother John

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Mike:
> 
> I'm thinkin you could capitalize the S till the sun burns out, and he still won't see it.  Water to a fish kinda thing.  I'm that way with "i before e" words.
> 
> D.


DARN thems trixy wordses!!!

Ya know, I've always done that!!!
....sion
confused with
....tion

oh well... :uhyeah: 
Yar Bruthur
Gyoughn


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## MJS

Brother John said:
			
		

> DARN thems trixy wordses!!!
> 
> Ya know, I've always done that!!!
> ....sion
> confused with
> ....tion
> 
> oh well... :uhyeah:
> Yar Bruthur
> Gyoughn



 :boing2:  :boing2:  :boing2: 

Hay, no problem bruthur Gon

Myke!! LOL


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Well to be honest...some do but some don't.  And this is all for different reasons.  Also alot of this could have to do with the time period they trained with Mr.Parker.   I do agree that The extention can teach some cool things.  But there are two side to everything.  For myself...there is the fighting aspect of it and there is the exploration of the art side to it also. ( Mental, Spiritual and Physical... Dragon, Phoenix, Tiger ).
> 
> with this diverse background that you seem to have, are you telling us that all of the above mentioned think that the extenSions are filler and busy work??
> 
> Mike


[/QUOTE]

Well thats too bad that you dont see the importance of the extenSions!  

Mike


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## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> And those of you who want to know who I've trained with or have had technical conversation with.  It's no big deal but here is a few of them. "Huk", Jabacca, Kumu Palani, Mr. Palanzo and Mrs. C.  I've also gotten different info from all of them too.  I'm sure that some of you have trained with these people.



Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other.  How long have you been training and what rank???  Its not a difficult question here!  But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!

Mike


----------



## Bill Lear

MJS said:
			
		

> Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other.  How long have you been training and what rank???  Its not a difficult question here!  But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!
> 
> Mike



I want to know the secret techniques that Kumu-Palani taught him, but that would involve a couple pitchers of beer and a guitar. Frank says he would've show'd me, but I can't play the guitar worth beans!

:cheers: :idunno:


----------



## BlackPhoenix

How are you doing...

I started training in Mr.Parker's American Kenpo when I started Kanzen Kenpo in 1990. My Rank Is'nt that important. But it's 2nd Degree. Recieved from Kumu Palani in 1999. I've also trained in Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen Kenpo, Shotokan, Shuri-Te, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Boxing & Wrestling. I started combative forms of training/martial arts around 1980.

To some degree my best teacher though was the streets. There's no substitute for experience and applied knowledge.

With all respect...I did not have any intention of telling anyone my rank or level of expertise because I'm not here for avy level of braging rights about rank. I'm only here to learn as many ideas as I can and have good intellectual conversation with fellow brother and sister Martial Artists and Fighters.

Sorry if I made any one feel uncomfortable.




			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Yup, you answer part of the question, but not the other. How long have you been training and what rank??? Its not a difficult question here! But it seems to me that you dont want to answer. Hmmmm??? Makes ya wonder!!!
> 
> Mike


----------



## BlackPhoenix

You still don't understand what I'm trying to say...Do you?

Well thats too bad that you dont see the importance of the extenSions! 

Mike[/QUOTE]


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> I'm only here to learn as many ideas as I can and have good intellectual conversation with fellow brother and sister Martial Artists and Fighters.
> 
> Sorry if I made any one feel uncomfortable.


Doesn't sound like you're here to learn something, it sounds as if you're here to tell us something about how we're not training properly doing all those worthless sets, forms, and extensions.

Dark Lord


----------



## BlackPhoenix

Where the hell did you get that idea.  I don't care how any of you train...That's your own business.  At first if you remember I started out about my own idea of extentions ( whatever ) and ask other opinions.  Then I get attacked for it.  It's to bad that you have to take it to heart that I have some of my own beliefs or outlooks on Kenpo.  Your making a bigger deal out of it than you have too.  

PS...I didn't say **** about the forms either !!!



			
				Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Doesn't sound like you're here to learn something, it sounds as if you're here to tell us something about how we're not training properly doing all those worthless sets, forms, and extensions.
> 
> Dark Lord


----------



## rmcrobertson

Well, I tried saying this politely. Now, let thine own words confound thee, form thy firstest postest onest thiest threadest:

"I see the EXTENTIONS taught in Kenpo as system filler or busy work. Let's face it...I always believed that if you can't down an opponent by the time you've reached a profecient level even around let's say Green Belt or even less than that...Purple Belt. You should'nt be waring any rank. EXTENTIONS are for people who can't think for themselves under pressure. If you understand and know the system you can come up with your own stuff. It does not take a rocket scientist to know to just keep on hitting/striking your opponent again or keep attacking your opponent if he or she does'nt go down or stay down. But..."

Why hell, no suggestion there that others are ignorant. 

So, back at ya, the intelligent statement in this quote: "But...."

Worster still, you've got pieces of the truths, and you fantasize that they are all that there is. Not so bad, I too have pieces of the truths--but I don't believe that they are the sum total of reality, good for me. 

It's OK. Like a lot of people, you simply don't understand why you're training. Are you looking in the mirror sufficiently?


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Where the hell did you get that idea. I don't care how any of you train...That's your own business. At first if you remember I started out about my own idea of extentions ( whatever ) and ask other opinions. Then I get attacked for it. It's to bad that you have to take it to heart that I have some of my own beliefs or outlooks on Kenpo. Your making a bigger deal out of it than you have too.
> 
> PS...I didn't say **** about the forms either !!!


I realise that I am very new on this forum. But I have to get this of of my chest. I think that this guy *"Dark Kenpo Lord"* is really caught up in his own hype. No body can talk to this guy about anything. I wonder how he fends in the real world. Dose'nt he have the brains enough to think that mabey some people ask the questions just so other people can learn from them. A person like *"Dark Kenpo Lord"* only intimidates lower ranking or begining practitioners from asking anything. If someone asks a question just answer it. That's simple enough. We should all try to learn from each other



In your own words, you seem concerned  how others are being taught or trained by asking questions so that others may learn from them.   I didn't see anyone asking the question but you, and you've already formed your beliefs about why and how, so why is it a concern to ask the question, unless there's an ulterior motive.   Be well Black Phoenix, enhance your calm.     Why am I even taking up real estate in your head to make posts about me?

Dark Lord


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> I want to know the secret techniques that Kumu-Palani taught him, but that would involve a couple pitchers of beer and a guitar. Frank says he would've show'd me, but I can't play the guitar worth beans!
> 
> :cheers: :idunno:



Seems to me that there are lots of "secrets" :boing2: 

Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> How are you doing...
> 
> I started training in Mr.Parker's American Kenpo when I started Kanzen Kenpo in 1990. My Rank Is'nt that important. But it's 2nd Degree. Recieved from Kumu Palani in 1999. I've also trained in Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen Kenpo, Shotokan, Shuri-Te, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Boxing & Wrestling. I started combative forms of training/martial arts around 1980.
> 
> To some degree my best teacher though was the streets. There's no substitute for experience and applied knowledge.
> 
> With all respect...I did not have any intention of telling anyone my rank or level of expertise because I'm not here for avy level of braging rights about rank. I'm only here to learn as many ideas as I can and have good intellectual conversation with fellow brother and sister Martial Artists and Fighters.
> 
> Sorry if I made any one feel uncomfortable.



Dude, it has nothing to do with bragging.  What it has to do with is the way you came off to people....A huge mystery about your time in, rank, dislike for things in the system, etc.  But you make it sound in your posts that you have this overwhelming experience.  I cant speak for anyone else, but I was curious about your training.  And I can see that some others appeared to be curious as well.

Thank you for the reply.

Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> You still don't understand what I'm trying to say...Do you?
> 
> 
> Well thats too bad that you dont see the importance of the extenSions!
> 
> Mike


[/QUOTE]

One thing I know, is that I dont understand the meaning behind this post??????????

Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Where the hell did you get that idea.  I don't care how any of you train...That's your own business.  At first if you remember I started out about my own idea of extentions ( whatever ) and ask other opinions.  Then I get attacked for it.  It's to bad that you have to take it to heart that I have some of my own beliefs or outlooks on Kenpo.  Your making a bigger deal out of it than you have too.
> 
> PS...I didn't say **** about the forms either !!!



Where did we get that idea?? Hmmm...do you really want me to go back and tell ya???  

Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> PS...I didn't say **** about the forms either !!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> BTW. I'll tell you what 'HUK' told me when I asked him about these two sets at a seminar about a year ago. "THERE IS NO CO-ORDINATION SETS 1 & 2 !!!" . He said it was busy work and filler and not only to me, but to a few of us Black Belts. I will only learn from 1st generation students of Mr. Parker. But like I said before brother..."I LOVE KENPO!!!"
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Opps...Sorry but...Wrong!!!
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> BTW. I'll tell you what 'HUK' told me when I asked him about these two sets at a seminar about a year ago. "THERE IS NO CO-ORDINATION SETS 1 & 2 !!!" . He said it was busy work and filler and not only to me, but to a few of us Black Belts. I will only learn from 1st generation students of Mr. Parker. But like I said before brother..."I LOVE KENPO!!!"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> With all respect...I did not have any intention of telling anyone my rank or level of expertise because I'm not here for avy level of braging rights about rank. I'm only here to learn as many ideas as I can and have good intellectual conversation with fellow brother and sister Martial Artists and Fighters.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Now those 2 statements are probably 2 of the most contradicting ones that I've seen you say so far.  In one breath you say you only want to learn from 1st gen. students of Parker, but in the second quote you say that you want to learn as many ideas from your fellow martial artists???
> 
> Again...Hmmm...makes one wonder.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## BlackPhoenix

No matter how much individuals know.  You can still learn thing from everyone.  There is no contradiction here.  The American Kenpo ciriculum that I've learned from any senior instructor is what I teach to my students.  But there are still alot of students of the art in Kenpo who will one day evolve the art.  So therefore I choose to keep an open mind and respect others beliefs at the same time in keeping my own.  Hell...I learn from my students. 



			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Now those 2 statements are probably 2 of the most contradicting ones that I've seen you say so far. In one breath you say you only want to learn from 1st gen. students of Parker, but in the second quote you say that you want to learn as many ideas from your fellow martial artists???
> 
> Again...Hmmm...makes one wonder.
> 
> Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> No matter how much individuals know.  You can still learn thing from everyone.  There is no contradiction here.  The American Kenpo ciriculum that I've learned from any senior instructor is what I teach to my students.  But there are still alot of students of the art in Kenpo who will one day evolve the art.  So therefore I choose to keep an open mind and respect others beliefs at the same time in keeping my own.  Hell...I learn from my students.



Well, you sure did seem to make it clear that you only wanted to learn from certain people, but hey, whatever make ya happy I guess.  And the slam on DKL.....well, you talk about people having an ego.....I think you should check YOUR ego!!!!

Mike


----------



## jaybacca72

personally i do the extensions and feel they made me a more rounded kenpo person,but i don't make my students learn them. after awhile people start to get lazy in thier kenpo training and that seems to be around the time the extensions are introduced in general not all kenpo people. it was also a marketing idea to keep people training in the art,not all people are leaders and many like to be shown stuff and not i have to put alot of thought into it.
 and as for blackpheonix he probably understands kenpo better than the majority of the kenpo people on this board and has had access to information that many kenpo people would envy. he is sometimes a wild horse,but a great kenpo player who can apply what he knows but learning from only 1st gen blacks well that is not so,i gave blackphoenix his black and 2nd black and i am no 1st gen black under mr.parker. i think you people misunderstood what he is doing,balckphoenix is just fishing for info and dark lord of kenpo well you buddy are just an ***.

much later
jaybacca artyon:


----------



## MJS

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> and as for blackpheonix he probably understands kenpo better than the majority of the kenpo people on this board and has had access to information that many kenpo people would envy. he is sometimes a wild horse,but a great kenpo player who can apply what he knows but learning from only 1st gen blacks well that is not so,i gave blackphoenix his black and 2nd black and i am no 1st gen black under mr.parker. i think you people misunderstood what he is doing,balckphoenix is just fishing for info and dark lord of kenpo well you buddy are just an ***.



Dude, I really hope that you're not serious with this post????  Just fishing for info??? Come on man, go back and re-read his posts.  He comes off like hes the king of all Kenpoists and that his knowledge surpasses everyone else.  As for DKL...I dont think that was called for at all!!!  Maybe you should speak for yourself!!!

Mike


----------



## rmcrobertson

Perhaps it might be better to simply get on these forums, state who you are in your own name rather than an alias, explain what you think is true, ask the questions you really want to ask, and avoid presenting truisms and generalities as Deep Thoughts, rather than assuming a position of automatically-superior knowledge and trying to trick the poor, benighted masses into some recognition.

That way, everybody with a functioning brain would know what axe everybody else is grinding, and we could debate/discuss the issues, rather than spiraling around and around and around in these endless combinations of silly personal attacks and tiresome, "I never said what I said," assertions. 

For example, I believe that the sets, forms, extensions are of immense value, and I think it is fundamentally a mistake to edit them out of, "the kenpo system," whatever you happen to think that system is and however you think it got put together. 

(Another essay-question issue to debate, sometime: Mr. Parker as genius editor, rather than "author," in the usual sense; read Michel Foucault, "What Is an Author?" research best-available facts about who wrote which parts of kenpo system. Examine ways these "individual," aspects were written into aa complete system. Discuss.)

I also think that there is an extraordinary contradiction, one worth examining, between saying that one works the extensions to become a better-rounded kenpo guy, but one does not teach them to students. 

I think such a statement indicates something that I've previously described as, "Burning bridges that your students need to cross."

There it is. Ya says what ya thinks, ya tries to explain why ya thinks it, ya don't pretend to be innocently inquiring. It's plain, it's fair, it might just start a real discussion,  and above all--it's simpler than all the tricksy stuff.


----------



## BlackPhoenix

Sorry guys..what I meant was that in the past few years I have not had alot of opportunity to train with my personal instructor "JAYBACCA".  So I have had to leave the nest so to speak temporyly and seek out my info from 1st generation people/Instructors.  

P.S.  You should all try Zac Whitson's Kenpo Counterpoint training tapes or seminars.  Totally awsome stuff and info.



			
				jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> personally i do the extensions and feel they made me a more rounded kenpo person,but i don't make my students learn them. after awhile people start to get lazy in thier kenpo training and that seems to be around the time the extensions are introduced in general not all kenpo people. it was also a marketing idea to keep people training in the art,not all people are leaders and many like to be shown stuff and not i have to put alot of thought into it.
> and as for blackpheonix he probably understands kenpo better than the majority of the kenpo people on this board and has had access to information that many kenpo people would envy. he is sometimes a wild horse,but a great kenpo player who can apply what he knows but learning from only 1st gen blacks well that is not so,i gave blackphoenix his black and 2nd black and i am no 1st gen black under mr.parker. i think you people misunderstood what he is doing,balckphoenix is just fishing for info and dark lord of kenpo well you buddy are just an ***.
> 
> much later
> jaybacca artyon:


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> and dark lord of kenpo well you buddy are just an ***.
> 
> much later
> jaybacca artyon:


 
I'd bet money you wouldn't say that to my face.

Dark Lord


----------



## MisterMike

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> personally i do the extensions and feel they made me a more rounded kenpo person,but i don't make my students learn them. after awhile people start to get lazy in thier kenpo training and that seems to be around the time the extensions are introduced in general not all kenpo people. it was also a marketing idea to keep people training in the art,not all people are leaders and many like to be shown stuff and not i have to put alot of thought into it.
> ........ i think you people misunderstood what he is doing,balckphoenix is just fishing for info and dark lord of kenpo well you buddy are just an ***.
> 
> much later
> jaybacca artyon:



I know a lot of Kenpo people who are quite "rounded." --Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I don't think the extensions were a marketing idea though. Perhaps naming them "Extensions" was, but the content makes the system what it is. I'd say the marketing kicked in when they went from 4 belts(32 system) to 8(16/24 system) so customers would have more frequent tests/rank promotions.

Of couse I may be wrong and it was much earlier than that...


----------



## Seig

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> ,i gave blackphoenix his black and 2nd black and i am no 1st gen black under mr.parker.jaybacca artyon:


I thought he said he got his second from Mr. Trejo.....


----------



## MJS

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I'd bet money you wouldn't say that to my face.
> 
> Dark Lord



I'd bet money on that too!!

Mike


----------



## MJS

Seig said:
			
		

> I thought he said he got his second from Mr. Trejo.....





> But it's 2nd Degree. Recieved from Kumu Palani in 1999. I've also trained in Tracy's Kenpo, Kanzen Kenpo, Shotokan, Shuri-Te, Ju-Jitsu, Aikido, Boxing & Wrestling



I went back and looked for his post.  This is what he said.  I'm confused now too??? :idunno: 

Mike


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Sorry guys..what I meant was that in the past few years I have not had alot of opportunity to train with my personal instructor "JAYBACCA".  So I have had to leave the nest so to speak temporyly and seek out my info from 1st generation people/Instructors.
> 
> P.S.  You should all try Zac Whitson's Kenpo Counterpoint training tapes or seminars.  Totally awsome stuff and info.



Sounds to me like you're just trying to cover up a lie that you told before.

Mike


----------



## BlackPhoenix

Kumu Palani was there at my school teaching a seminar that day. I was put to 2nd Jabacca was put to 4th. And I'm actually getting sick of this ****. This is a forum to discuss the system not each other. And come to think about...I don't even know why I'm getting dragged into people's ******** anyway. It's nobodys damn business who I trained with in the first place. Talk to me when you want to talk about our different trainging styles, the martial arts or street fighting. 

P.S. You better not ever let me find out exactly who you are and where you are...Never call me a liar. Where I come from that no different than calling a Afro American ( You Know ). And yes I'm Afro America. And if you want to call me a liar again, put your money where your mouth is and I'll personally see if you've learned your lessons. But if you don't call me that again I'll disregard what you said then get on to a fresh start.  I won't even ask for an apology.


			
				MJS said:
			
		

> Sounds to me like you're just trying to cover up a lie that you told before.
> 
> Mike


----------



## loki09789

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Kumu Palani was there at my school teaching a seminar that day.  I was put to 2nd Jabacca was put to 4th.  And I'm actually getting sick of this ****.  This is a forum to discuss the system not each other.
> 
> P.S.  You better not ever let me find out exactly who you are and where you are...Never call me a liar.  Where I come from that no different than calling a Afro American ( You Know ).  And yes I'm Afro America.



Be careful of internet threats, because it crosses state lines it could lead to federal level or felony charges... and the "I was only kidding" argument doesn't work.  So much for the control issue of MA... as well as the character issue from what I have seen.  Sort of like calling Knights 'chivalrous' instead of trying to be chivalrous.  So are you calling lumping the people questioning your integrity as jerks AND racist now?  

My question is this.  In my practice of Kenpo, since it was blended so much with FMA, the specific term EXTENTIONS doesn't really come up:  What do you mean by it, and what does the practice of it try and develop?


----------



## BlackPhoenix

This is a good point also.



			
				MisterMike said:
			
		

> I know a lot of Kenpo people who are quite "rounded." --Sorry, couldn't help myself.
> 
> I don't think the extensions were a marketing idea though. Perhaps naming them "Extensions" was, but the content makes the system what it is. I'd say the marketing kicked in when they went from 4 belts(32 system) to 8(16/24 system) so customers would have more frequent tests/rank promotions.
> 
> Of couse I may be wrong and it was much earlier than that...


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Kumu Palani was there at my school teaching a seminar that day. I was put to 2nd Jabacca was put to 4th. And I'm actually getting sick of this ****. This is a forum to discuss the system not each other. And come to think about...I don't even know why I'm getting dragged into people's ******** anyway. It's nobodys damn business who I trained with in the first place. Talk to me when you want to talk about our different trainging styles, the martial arts or street fighting.



No, what matters is that you talk in circles.  You tell so many LIES that its starting to catch up to you.



> P.S. You better not ever let me find out exactly who you are and where you are...Never call me a liar. Where I come from that no different than calling a Afro American ( You Know ). And yes I'm Afro America. And if you want to call me a liar again, put your money where your mouth is and I'll personally see if you've learned your lessons. But if you don't call me that again I'll disregard what you said then get on to a fresh start.  I won't even ask for an apology.



LOL! LOL!  Big tough words, from a very little man!!

Mike


----------



## BlackPhoenix

There were originally 32 extentions taught. And my sources say that Mr. Parker did'nt even make all of them up. It's pretty much the same thing as believing Mr.Parker wrote everything in the "Infinite Insights into Kenpo" books. Or that Kenpo invented marriage of gravity torque or back up mass. And what everyone has heard a million times..."What the hell are you doing...Mr. Parker did'nt teach it that way !!!" 

Like I said Before...Extention's can be fun to learn and you can learn a few different new ways to move, Etc, Etc. But It comes down to this. You've got to put up or shut up. The Extentions may make you a little bit well rounded as a Kenpo Practitioner. This may be true. But I do not believe they will make you a better fighter on the street. One may do line drills in the Dojo and may take strike of about 50% power. This has to be intensified. Just because we do Karate or Kenpo should not make you think that you can take the punch from a well rounded boxer or and experienced street fighter. Mr. planas also said that the guy on the street breaths, kias, moves, kicks, punches, claws, Etc. just like you do so therefore you better do it better and harder than he or she can. If you study your base techniques in depth enough, whatever that may be...you will have the capability of creating your ow so called extension ( Prefix a Prefix ). Remember the techniques are mostly no more than ideas/concepts and lesson plans.  

And I still do see that alot of the extentions are busy work of filler.  I believe that we shoulde spend more time in developing stronger basics at any level and being truly spontaneous at base base techniques or part of.

P.S. I was not joking... If you can dish out disresecting another man we all have to take it back.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Be careful of internet threats, because it crosses state lines it could lead to federal level or felony charges... and the "I was only kidding" argument doesn't work. So much for the control issue of MA... as well as the character issue from what I have seen. Sort of like calling Knights 'chivalrous' instead of trying to be chivalrous. So are you calling lumping the people questioning your integrity as jerks AND racist now?
> 
> My question is this. In my practice of Kenpo, since it was blended so much with FMA, the specific term EXTENTIONS doesn't really come up: What do you mean by it, and what does the practice of it try and develop?


----------



## MJS

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> There were originally 32 extentions taught. And my sources say that Mr. Parker did'nt even make all of them up. It's pretty much the same thing as believing Mr.Parker wrote everything in the "Infinite Insights into Kenpo" books. Or that Kenpo invented marriage of gravity torque or back up mass. And what everyone has heard a million times..."What the hell are you doing...Mr. Parker did'nt teach it that way !!!"



Your sources huh?? More mystery that surrounds the BlackPhoenix!!  :boing2:  



> Like I said Before...Extention's can be fun to learn and you can learn a few different new ways to move, Etc, Etc. But It comes down to this. You've got to put up or shut up. The Extentions may make you a little bit well rounded as a Kenpo Practitioner. This may be true. But I do not believe they will make you a better fighter on the street. One may do line drills in the Dojo and may take strike of about 50% power. This has to be intensified. Just because we do Karate or Kenpo should not make you think that you can take the punch from a well rounded boxer or and experienced street fighter. Mr. planas also said that the guy on the street breaths, kias, moves, kicks, punches, claws, Etc. just like you do so therefore you better do it better and harder than he or she can. If you study your base techniques in depth enough, whatever that may be...you will have the capability of creating your ow so called extension ( Prefix a Prefix ). Remember the techniques are mostly no more than ideas/concepts and lesson plans.



This just goes to show the true lack of understanding that you have of the art!!!



> P.S.  I was not joking... If you can dish out disresecting another man we all have to take it back.



YOU have been disrespecting people from the first day you came to this thread, and now it appears that you took it a step further.  I'm glad that you have gained the self control that the arts are supposed to teach.  I can see that you are apparently lacking in that area as well as a few others.

Mike


----------



## loki09789

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> There were originally 32 extentions taught. And my sources say that Mr. Parker did'nt even make all of them up. It's pretty much the same thing as believing Mr.Parker wrote everything in the "Infinite Insights into Kenpo" books. Or that Kenpo invented marriage of gravity torque or back up mass. And what everyone has heard a million times..."What the hell are you doing...Mr. Parker did'nt teach it that way !!!"
> 
> Like I said Before...Extention's can be fun to learn and you can learn a few different new ways to move, Etc, Etc. But It comes down to this. You've got to put up or shut up. The Extentions may make you a little bit well rounded as a Kenpo Practitioner. This may be true. But I do not believe they will make you a better fighter on the street. One may do line drills in the Dojo and may take strike of about 50% power. This has to be intensified. Just because we do Karate or Kenpo should not make you think that you can take the punch from a well rounded boxer or and experienced street fighter. Mr. planas also said that the guy on the street breaths, kias, moves, kicks, punches, claws, Etc. just like you do so therefore you better do it better and harder than he or she can. If you study your base techniques in depth enough, whatever that may be...you will have the capability of creating your ow so called extension ( Prefix a Prefix ). Remember the techniques are mostly no more than ideas/concepts and lesson plans.
> 
> P.S.  I was not joking... If you can dish out disresecting another man we all have to take it back.



Still haven't identified exactly WHAT extentions are.  An example of one and how it is used might help me to understand.  As far as joking, I didn't think you were joking, nor have I insulted you.  You are stepping into dangerous liability and litigious ground with threats of violence and subtle accusations of racism, just sending up a red flag.

As far as who taught, wrote, created..... honestly as part of the FMA tradition, I will give credit where credit is due, but I am going to take it if it works for me and my goals.....


----------



## Michael Billings

Moderator Note:

 Threats will not be tolerated.

 Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

  -Michael Billings
  -MT Moderator-


----------



## Bill Lear

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Perhaps it might be better to simply get on these forums, state who you are in your own name rather than an alias, explain what you think is true, ask the questions you really want to ask, and avoid presenting truisms and generalities as Deep Thoughts, rather than assuming a position of automatically-superior knowledge and trying to trick the poor, benighted masses into some recognition.
> 
> That way, everybody with a functioning brain would know what axe everybody else is grinding, and we could debate/discuss the issues, rather than spiraling around and around and around in these endless combinations of silly personal attacks and tiresome, "I never said what I said," assertions.
> 
> For example, I believe that the sets, forms, extensions are of immense value, and I think it is fundamentally a mistake to edit them out of, "the kenpo system," whatever you happen to think that system is and however you think it got put together.
> 
> (Another essay-question issue to debate, sometime: Mr. Parker as genius editor, rather than "author," in the usual sense; read Michel Foucault, "What Is an Author?" research best-available facts about who wrote which parts of kenpo system. Examine ways these "individual," aspects were written into aa complete system. Discuss.)
> 
> I also think that there is an extraordinary contradiction, one worth examining, between saying that one works the extensions to become a better-rounded kenpo guy, but one does not teach them to students.
> 
> I think such a statement indicates something that I've previously described as, "Burning bridges that your students need to cross."
> 
> There it is. Ya says what ya thinks, ya tries to explain why ya thinks it, ya don't pretend to be innocently inquiring. It's plain, it's fair, it might just start a real discussion,  and above all--it's simpler than all the tricksy stuff.



Robert,

I 100% agree with you on this post. If it makes your Kenpo better, why wouldn't you want to practice the extensions? Good post!

:asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Robert,
> 
> I 100% agree with you on this post. If it makes your Kenpo better, why wouldn't you want to practice the extensions? Good post!
> 
> :asian:


 Exactamundo 

 -Michael


----------



## Seig

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Moderator Note:
> 
> Threats will not be tolerated.
> 
> Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.
> 
> -Michael Billings
> -MT Moderator-


No they will not.
Suspension Issued.
Seig 
MT Admin


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> Kumu Palani was there at my school teaching a seminar that day. I was put to 2nd Jabacca was put to 4th. And I'm actually getting sick of this ****. This is a forum to discuss the system not each other. And come to think about...I don't even know why I'm getting dragged into people's ******** anyway. It's nobodys damn business who I trained with in the first place. Talk to me when you want to talk about our different trainging styles, the martial arts or street fighting.
> 
> P.S. You better not ever let me find out exactly who you are and where you are...Never call me a liar. Where I come from that no different than calling a Afro American ( You Know ). And yes I'm Afro America. And if you want to call me a liar again, put your money where your mouth is and I'll personally see if you've learned your lessons. But if you don't call me that again I'll disregard what you said then get on to a fresh start. I won't even ask for an apology.


So what you're saying is Frank didn't actually promote you did he, we just assumed by your statements it was him when it wasn't, he was just there teaching a seminar?

What are you gonna do if you find out who MJS is anyway?  

Were you born in Africa as well, I know people from  South Africa (born there), but they're white, does that not make them African American?  

Amazing what a bit of semantics will lead people to believe.

Dark Lord


----------



## Brother John

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> There were originally 32 extentions taught. And my sources say that Mr. Parker did'nt even make all of them up.
> 
> Like I said Before...Extention's can be fun to learn and you can learn a few different new ways to move, Etc, Etc. But It comes down to this. You've got to put up or shut up. The Extentions may make you a little bit well rounded as a Kenpo Practitioner. This may be true. But I do not believe they will make you a better fighter on the street.



BlackPhoenix-
These original 32 extensions, in my opinion, would be just like learning 32 new techniques. If you don't like them, don't do them. THAT's what it really "Comes down to". For that matter, if you don't like the techniques taught at Green Belt, don't do them. What's the difference?

I agree wholeheartedly with your point that each practitioner MUST work diligently to improve/evolve their execution of the fundamentals first... but I think that this is implicit in the systems we study. I know that in the style I study (AKKI Kenpo) you don't get from point A to point Z without going through the other 24 points in order and gaining what each point has to teach you FIRST. The belts should be a progressive ladder of achievement. SO by this rationale, once a person gets to the level at which they would begin to come into contact with the extentions...they SHOULD have already done their hard work on basics on up through the advanced material. 

I should make a note: in the AKKI we do not make use of any 'extentions', though I know some... There's a reason behind this, but you'd have to ask someone much higher in the association to ask it... Believe me, I'm the least of my AKKI brothers.  But I don't disagree with the use/study of extentions... it's just not the _only_ way to get the job done I don't think.)
Extentions being "Fun" may be true, but it's beside the point. Does it matter if Mr. Parker or one of his more trusted/respected/loyal students did???? I personally don't think so. I hope you don't think that something got into the Kenpo required curriculum without Mr. Parker's sincere stamp of aproval. I'd think that that'd be good enough for me. 


> you can learn a few different new ways to move


I'd think that THAT is exactly the point. Beyond the first couple of belts, it's ALL "New ways to move", new vocabulary and the lessons they can teach you. In my mind, you are arguing against further vocabulary. As long as this further vocabulary doesn't violate...but reinforces...the Kenpo principles; it's all good.


> The Extentions may make you a little bit well rounded as a Kenpo Practitioner. This may be true. But I do not believe they will make you a better fighter on the street.


OK... coming from a person who seems to feel that Kenpo is a good art, this statement doesn't really make sense.
You don't think that becoming a better or "More well rounded..Kenpo practitioner" will help make you a better fighter on the street??????  :shrug: 
Then why are you studying Kenpo and taking it's lessons seriously.
From day one as a white belt on all we do is gradually become a more and more well rounded practitioner...one step, form, set, technique at a time.
What did you mean by this statement??? Maybe you could reword it???  :idunno: 
Your Brother
John


----------



## jaybacca72

some times black phoenix gets to emotional about certain things and yes he does have control issues at times but he is definitely not a liar. frank was at his school for a seminar and the following day we had a grading,frank promoted me to 4th and promoted black phoenix to 2nd on my recommendation. as i said before i myself train all the areas in kenpo but don't force others to because most don't stay around long enough to truly get the whole picture because of life getting inthe way not the quality of training recieved. kenpo was an experiment for parker and his students were his guinea pigs.
later
jay
ps dlk i would say it to your face if you were in front of me if i thought you were being an ***.


----------



## MJS

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> some times black phoenix gets to emotional about certain things and yes he does have control issues at times but he is definitely not a liar. frank was at his school for a seminar and the following day we had a grading,frank promoted me to 4th and promoted black phoenix to 2nd on my recommendation. as i said before i myself train all the areas in kenpo but don't force others to because most don't stay around long enough to truly get the whole picture because of life getting inthe way not the quality of training recieved. kenpo was an experiment for parker and his students were his guinea pigs.
> later
> jay
> 
> 
> 
> ps dlk i would say it to your face if you were in front of me if i thought you were being an ***.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Is this necessary??????
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so,i gave blackphoenix his black and 2nd black and i am no 1st gen black under mr.parker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> So which is it!!!!! :idunno:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i think you people misunderstood what he is doing,balckphoenix is just fishing for info
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Could have fooled me!!!!
Click to expand...


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> some times black phoenix gets to emotional about certain things and yes he does have control issues at times but he is definitely not a liar. frank was at his school for a seminar and the following day we had a grading,frank promoted me to 4th and promoted black phoenix to 2nd on my recommendation. as i said before i myself train all the areas in kenpo but don't force others to because most don't stay around long enough to truly get the whole picture because of life getting inthe way not the quality of training recieved. kenpo was an experiment for parker and his students were his guinea pigs.
> later
> jay
> ps dlk i would say it to your face if you were in front of me if i thought you were being an ***.


 
You know, with this kind of attitude about non committment in people, why bother teaching at all?      If Black Phoenix has hostility issues, he shouldn't be in any position in which he may exploit others to that end, nuff said. 

Dark Lord


----------



## jaybacca72

that is exactly why i have not taught in 8 months by my choice,too many people saying they are doing more than they actually are. as far as black phoenix goes he is his own person with his own students,i take no responsibilty for what he does or says but he is my friend and i will stick up for him when i feel it to be necessary. i think i will just read posts for now and when some good conversation comes along maybe i will post.
later
jay

artyon:


----------



## Bruce Banner

hi mr black phoenix. how are you? i am fine. i just want to say that the extentions are really neat and i will learn them some day. i am learning my kenpo karate through the mail and i am going to be a karate man one day. i think that a good karate man should know as much about his karate is all i am saying. i am learning delayed sword and but it is tougher than wehn my mom made me learn piano. no offence if you play piano and all but i could not stick with it but i will stick with kenpo so when i get to the extentions i will learn them is all i am saying.

your friend
Bruce


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Wow. And I thought I might be missing out on something by not checking in more often.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

jaybacca72 said:
			
		

> that is exactly why i have not taught in 8 months by my choice, i think i will just read posts for now and when some good conversation comes along maybe i will post.
> later
> jay
> 
> artyon:


 
Good ideas

DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpo_Chick

Ok my 2 cents worth again....

Extensions are taught to us (in my reason) to extend our learning. Just because (just for example) we learn Five swords and finish at the uppercut does not mean that our opponent is finished!! We learn Kenpo (correct me if I'm wrong), so that we may not have to fight. We are taught to run first if we get into a situation that may enter us into a fight. But lets face it, if we're in a fight on the street we are more likely to face someone that is either drunk or on drugs. If this is the case, they're not going to stop after a few fancy moves. 

However learning extensions gives us the knowledge and experience to carry those moves on if we need to. We learn these moves so that we know what we feel comfortable with and ones that we don't feel comfortable with. E.g. We learn finger strikes, and yet I know if I'm in a fight on the street I would never use fingers strikes. I don't like them, they don't work for me so I WON"T USE THEM! 

It's common sense!! Use what fits, but the object of your instructor is to teach what he can to you. Personally the extensions to orange and purple (all that I"ve done so far) are easy enough to do and straight forward. If I had to carry on a move I would! But being in that situation I cannot tell as adrialine may take over and I could do something completely different. 

Also something that our Instructors say is that "Extensions handle the factor 'What if?'". Self defence are based on different scenarios. Extensions take us past 'someone pushing us' to 'what if someone punches and then throws a punch' (Triggered Salute for those of you wondering what move I'm talking about!) Extensions I believe are not more as a physcial test to a higher grade but rather a mental test to us. It gets us to think, to switch and swap around our moves. Our instructors in our senior class will sometimes swap endings on our moves so that we're not use to one self defence all the time and that we realise we can swap and change moves as we want.

Well that's all from this newbie...


----------



## BlackPhoenix

*The base move is always the most important element while the extension is the least important. A weak base move versus a good strong punch aimed and landing right between your eyes will probably leave you unconscious and on the ground. Techniques were given extension motion for several reasons with some of the more important reasons being: position recognition, development of what if scenarios and categorical completion. 
*


*The extension or over kill concept only happens if the base move was effective and allowed for opportunities to finish the technique. So, if the initial defensive move and counter attack were weak or infective than a multiple strike follow up becomes increasingly unlikely. A skilled fighter capable of giving you problems in completing your base move and capable of countering and connecting with his own attack could limit your over kill or extension motion.
*


*Some people feel that the extension is no more than a fantasy and I must agree with this line of thought. Think about it this way, the extension only works if the base move was effective but if the base worked then your opponent will not be on his feet for you to complete your extension. So if the base works the extension wont happen and if you must use the extension than the base was ineffective and the ineffective base in all probability will not leave you in a position to complete the extension. In other words, the extension relies on the base but a strong base cancels the necessity of an extension.*


*Zach Whitson*


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> *The base move is always the most important element while the extension is the least important. A weak base move versus a good strong punch aimed and landing right between your eyes will probably leave you unconscious and on the ground. Techniques were given extension motion for several reasons with some of the more important reasons being: position recognition, development of what if scenarios and categorical completion. *
> 
> 
> 
> *The extension or over kill concept only happens if the base move was effective and allowed for opportunities to finish the technique. So, if the initial defensive move and counter attack were weak or infective than a multiple strike follow up becomes increasingly unlikely. A skilled fighter capable of giving you problems in completing your base move and capable of countering and connecting with his own attack could limit your over kill or extension motion.*
> 
> 
> 
> *Some people feel that the extension is no more than a fantasy and I must agree with this line of thought. Think about it this way, the extension only works if the base move was effective but if the base worked then your opponent will not be on his feet for you to complete your extension. So if the base works the extension wont happen and if you must use the extension than the base was ineffective and the ineffective base in all probability will not leave you in a position to complete the extension. In other words, the extension relies on the base but a strong base cancels the necessity of an extension.*
> 
> 
> *Zach Whitson*


This guy has no idea what the hell he's talking about either.   Cupcakes for everyone:rofl:

DarK Lord


----------



## rmcrobertson

Well, cleaning up after the elephants again...me n' that little guy on, "Fractured Fairy Tales."

I agree with Mr. Whitson, because I've never had an instructor snarl at a class, "Don't show me the damn extension, I don't want to see it without a strong base technique...show me a block and a punch, show me a good elbow, dammit!"

Oh wait, I forgot...been hearing that since...um...take my shoes off...five and five is...unzip...eleven...oh, since 1997.

And then too, well, I've got a pretty decent punch, block and kick. Well, for an English teacher. Why would I need an extension? I guarantee, every time I've hit the Dark One solid with the basic, he drops snivelling...oh wait, he actually laughs and tries to pull my esophagus out my...uh, nose. Why bwould I need an extension?

I must start a thread on the use of truisms in kenpo. Is it actually far worse than in other arts, or is that just my impression?


----------



## Brother John

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> I must start a thread on the use of truisms in kenpo. Is it actually far worse than in other arts, or is that just my impression?


No, it's not just you....unfortunately.
Far far too many a Kenpoist "Stinks of Kenpo". 

Your Brother
John


----------



## Brother John

BlackPhoenix said:
			
		

> *The base move is always the most important element while the extension is the least important.
> 
> The extension or over kill concept only happens if the base move was effective and allowed for opportunities to finish the technique. So, if the initial defensive move and counter attack were weak or infective than a multiple strike follow up becomes increasingly unlikely. A skilled fighter capable of giving you problems in completing your base move and capable of countering and connecting with his own attack could limit your over kill or extension motion.
> 
> Some people feel that the extension is no more than a fantasy and I must agree with this line of thought. Think about it this way, the extension only works if the base move was effective but if the base worked then your opponent will not be on his feet for you to complete your extension. So if the base works the extension wont happen and if you must use the extension than the base was ineffective and the ineffective base in all probability will not leave you in a position to complete the extension. In other words, the extension relies on the base but a strong base cancels the necessity of an extension.  *


*

I'm sorry Zach but I think you are still way off base. 
way...



			The base move is always the most important element while the extension is the least important.
		
Click to expand...

No, neither is more or less important than the other. They are both just "movement". Your premise is based on a presumption ( I think ) that the technique was meant to be carried out verbatim in an actual fight. I don't think so. They are 'points of reference', set established curricula that help us assimilate certain patterns or 'vocabulary of motion'. They are a training lesson/procedure...not a perscription. Within the ebb and flow of a real altercation you can begin and/or end at any point within a technique or techniques so long as the "Vocabulary" fits the needs of the moment. 

It's like learning to speak Spanish. I can teach you 10,000 of the most used phrases in Spanish...and if you know them well and travel to a Spanish speaking country (or Florida) you still will need to know how to conjugate your own sentences. Hopefully I've also taught you not only the phrases, but why they are constructed the way they are (Grammar) and other nuances. 

Bringing this to Kenpo: We learn the techniques so that we can come to understand in a visceral way the logic and the 'principles' that make those techniques work. We learn to conjugate our Kenpo for ourselves.

Just my thoughts.
Hey Robert, do I 'stink of Kenpo' or what? 

Your Brother
John*


----------



## MJS

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Zach but I think you are still way off base.
> way...
> 
> No, neither is more or less important than the other. They are both just "movement". Your premise is based on a presumption ( I think ) that the technique was meant to be carried out verbatim in an actual fight. I don't think so. They are 'points of reference', set established curricula that help us assimilate certain patterns or 'vocabulary of motion'. They are a training lesson/procedure...not a perscription. Within the ebb and flow of a real altercation you can begin and/or end at any point within a technique or techniques so long as the "Vocabulary" fits the needs of the moment.



I agrree as well Bro John.  Chances are the base tech. may not be pulled off as text book as we'd like, so therefore, the extension is going to come into play.  Hmmm...those 'What if, even if" senarios are coming to mind here.

Mike


----------



## jeffkyle

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> Oh wait, I forgot...been hearing that since...um...take my shoes off...five and five is...*unzip...eleven*...oh, since 1997.




HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!    :roflmao:


----------



## TwistofFat

Brother John said:
			
		

> I'm sorry Zach but I think you are still way off base.
> way...
> 
> Your Brother
> John


Gentlemen- I agree regarding the value of learning the extentions, but just wanted to comment on Black Phoenix's quote from Zach Whitson.  Mr. Whitson is a sixth degree under Richard "Huk" Planas, a Guro in Pekiti-Tirsia, and a knife maker under Gil Hibben.  Mr. Whitson is also the force behind the Kenpo CounterPoint series (www.kenpocounterpoint.com). ...hey, sounds like a commercial.

Mr. Whitson may have indeed said all in the above quote, and comes from the 'old' school of learning the fundamentals first (who isn't), but is a well rounded fighter and instructor.  I would imagine he could shed some light on his opinion, but I would prefer to know what his full position on extensions may be directly from him.  He will be in Pittsburgh (Ryer)and Lansdale PA (Cappi) within the next month if you would like to see him.

Thanks and regards - Glenn.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

TwistofFat said:
			
		

> He will be in Pittsburgh (Ryer)and Lansdale PA (Cappi) within the next month if you would like to see him.
> 
> Thanks and regards - Glenn.


I think I'll pass.

DarK LorD


----------



## TwistofFat

DLK,

I only meant that perhaps Mr. Whitson had more to add than someone quoting him out of context.  PA maybe far from mother CA - but we do what we can.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

TwistofFat said:
			
		

> Gentlemen- I agree regarding the value of learning the extentions, but just wanted to comment on Black Phoenix's quote from Zach Whitson. Mr. Whitson is a sixth degree under Richard "Huk" Planas, a Guro in Pekiti-Tirsia, and a knife maker under Gil Hibben. Mr. Whitson is also the force behind the Kenpo CounterPoint series (www.kenpocounterpoint.com). ...hey, sounds like a commercial.
> 
> Mr. Whitson may have indeed said all in the above quote, and comes from the 'old' school of learning the fundamentals first (who isn't), but is a well rounded fighter and instructor. I would imagine he could shed some light on his opinion, but I would prefer to know what his full position on extensions may be directly from him. He will be in Pittsburgh (Ryer)and Lansdale PA (Cappi) within the next month if you would like to see him.
> 
> Thanks and regards - Glenn.


I've found the reason people alter the system is because they don't understand it. I can honestly say I've felt the same way about many of the same issues with Kenpo when my knowledge of it was limited (notice the past tense). As I gained more insight I'm starting to see what Mr. Parker saw when he created them, and why he left us with the curriculum outlined in Book 5 of II. Extensions are not fantasy, nor are they designed for a particular technique as many of the extensions are interchangeable. 

Let me give you an example;

Squeezing the Peach is designed for a rear bear-hug arms pinned. That doesn't say a whole lot in itself as the attack is not dynamic in text. Put that attack in motion and it becomes a Rear bear-hug, arms free with a pullback to the left side. That sets the technique into motion and it allows the targets to open up by stepping back to the angle of least resistance. Now, how would it work if your opponent did the same bear hug and pushed forward. If you don't know the extension, you won't know the answer, but that's not to say that's the ONLY SOLUTION.

His whole premise of Counter-Point is Counter-Productive in the fact he's already set the ideal phase technique up for failure. LEARNING TO MAKE THE TECHNIQUE WORK IN IT'S IDEAL PHASE IS PARAMOUNT, and should the IDEAL PHASE fail, you can simply use the EQUATION FORMULA with other IDEAL PHASE techniques or EXTENSIONS, that's why you learn them. I can counter techniques done ineffectively all day long using IDEAL PHASE techniques or IDEAL PHASE EXTENSIONS for the counters, and you certainly don't need BJJ,MT, or any other art to augment your Kenpo when it's done effectively, however, learning or investigating other systems to understand their viewpoint is always a bonus to gain their insight. BJJ is a two dimensional art, and they use those two dimensions with astounding results but are still limited in their conceptions with the lack of a third dimension by being vertical. If you take those properties and apply them vertically with the third dimension, your skills will grow beyond your imagination. Kenpo, the always misunderstood martial art, will continue to stagnate and die if people never realize the fullest potential of it and themselves.


DarK LorD


----------



## teej

I view the extensions as another learning tool. More disquised repition. Most certainly you can learn a few techniques like a boxer does and do them well enough to defend yourself in certain situations. But how many people study boxing just to learn to defend themselves with no intention of getting in the ring ? Yes there is what is known as white collar boxing, but how many people learning to box with no intent of getting in the ring are still at the gym practicing 10 yrs later. I would think that for most of them working the same jab, cross, hook, upper cut combinations get boring after several years. I am sure there are exceptions to this and I personally enjoy boxing classes and its effectiveness. But back to the extensions, they give advanced students something else to learn and practice. Remember this is now a commercial art. Mr. Parker commercialized it. Extensions is another tool that can be used to educate and keep long term students. Instead of learning a punch and then practicing it over and over again in the air and on bags or pads, Kenpo has it in a technique. Practice the technique, you end up practicing the punch for example. Learn all the techniques over and over again, now the instructor and introduce extensions and give the student more to learn and practice. Can someone learn to defend themselves without learning the extensions? Sure. Can someone learn to defend themselves without learning all the techniques? Sure. The techniques and extensions are  learning tools. Tools kenpo instructors use to educate their students teaching them how to defend themselves as well as how their body should move to maximize the power principles.  Try to understand Mr. Parkers method of teaching, what and why he came up with disguised repition, the impact the commercializing had. I think a lot of individuals are reading too much into the technique aspect and don't understand why there are techniques. I am not going to argue with any of you on this. To me, extensions are just another tool to enhance the kenpo learning experience. Just a tool. You most certainly do not need to know them to be a good black belt or be able to defend yourself. But if you want to further your study of EPAK, then the extensions are there to learn.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


----------



## Michael Billings

Well said DKL (Clyde), and I agree wholeheartedly.  It is those who do not understand the premise of the extension that often think of them as USELESS knowledge and it being repetitive.  Where else do we learn the more interesting takedowns and pressure points or balance disruptions.  They are not "stated" anywhere else and contain their own plethora of knowledge.

 Wasted movement?  Bah, humbug - you just don't know what you don't know, and your teacher may, or may not?  Or his/her teacher, or now that it has been 14 years, it could be that their teacher did not know the WHY'S, just the HOW'S ... that is what separates the teacher from the student.  You can teach with just the base techniques, and learn a lot, a huge, vast amount of material.  But there is that much still waiting to be learned.   I am still learning, about the base techniques AND extensions, and that is with 25 years AT the Art.  Empty your cup and be open to exploring and learning the possibilities.  Don't take anyone's word that something is useless no matter what their rank.  Things I could not do 10 years ago, and could just barely see, I can do now ... the other side of the coin is I cannot do jump spin hook kicks anymore, it is a fair tradeoff, if somewhat frustrating at times.





 -Michael


----------



## TwistofFat

Mr. Billings and Mr. Dark Kenpo Lord (or Mr. O, Mr. Lord.?..),

I wholehartedly agree with your point regarding the extentions and the study/expansion within the Kenpo system (I have only been AT the art for 10 years and travel extensively to stay within EPAK).  I have had instructors teach them and others scoff, but I always add them to my mental portfolio for later reference.
As I age (not gracefully), I have found that I do embrace approaches, techniques that I originally scorned (heck, the one I hated the most I know enjoy and made my nickname - Twist of Fate...with a twist).  
I do not know Mr. Whitson nor have I trained with him, but respect many that have.  That does not mean I agree with his commentary on the extensions, just found him to produce solid Kenpoists.
In my original post, I was attempting to say that...but failed.

Regards - Glenn.


----------



## Bill Lear

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> "Empty your cup and be open to exploring and learning the possibilities."



I have trouble with this analogy. Why empty my cup to fill it with something else? That implies that I have to unlearn in order to learn. I'm humble enough to understand that there are people in this world with bigger cups than mine... Why shouldn't I just get a bigger cup and make room for the new stuff on top of what I already have?

:asian:


----------



## Kenpodoc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I've found the reason people alter the system is because they don't understand it. I can honestly say I've felt the same way about many of the same issues with Kenpo when my knowledge of it was limited (notice the past tense). As I gained more insight I'm starting to see what Mr. Parker saw when he created them, and why he left us with the curriculum outlined in Book 5 of II. Extensions are not fantasy, nor are they designed for a particular technique as many of the extensions are interchangeable.
> 
> Let me give you an example;
> 
> Squeezing the Peach is designed for a rear bear-hug arms pinned. That doesn't say a whole lot in itself as the attack is not dynamic in text. Put that attack in motion and it becomes a Rear bear-hug, arms free with a pullback to the left side. That sets the technique into motion and it allows the targets to open up by stepping back to the angle of least resistance. Now, how would it work if your opponent did the same bear hug and pushed forward. If you don't know the extension, you won't know the answer, but that's not to say that's the ONLY SOLUTION.
> 
> His whole premise of Counter-Point is Counter-Productive in the fact he's already set the ideal phase technique up for failure. LEARNING TO MAKE THE TECHNIQUE WORK IN IT'S IDEAL PHASE IS PARAMOUNT, and should the IDEAL PHASE fail, you can simply use the EQUATION FORMULA with other IDEAL PHASE techniques or EXTENSIONS, that's why you learn them. I can counter techniques done ineffectively all day long using IDEAL PHASE techniques or IDEAL PHASE EXTENSIONS for the counters, and you certainly don't need BJJ,MT, or any other art to augment your Kenpo when it's done effectively, however, learning or investigating other systems to understand their viewpoint is always a bonus to gain their insight. BJJ is a two dimensional art, and they use those two dimensions with astounding results but are still limited in their conceptions with the lack of a third dimension by being vertical. If you take those properties and apply them vertically with the third dimension, your skills will grow beyond your imagination. Kenpo, the always misunderstood martial art, will continue to stagnate and die if people never realize the fullest potential of it and themselves.
> 
> 
> DarK LorD



Wrong. 

First, Zach is an awesome kenpoist.  Don't short his knowlege of Kenpo nor his ability to use it.  

Second, he has devised a new way to study kenpo and perhaps to more quickly gain mastery. I have no problems if others don't wish to use counterpoint training, and I'm sure Zach doesn't care. I suspect that if Mr. Parker were here he would at least be intrigued by Counterpoint training.

Third.  What is this nonsense about only one way to do a technique and the need to fit everything into the equation formula.  I never met Mr. Parker, but in the video tapes I've seen he's never done a technique the same way twice and never "by the book."  

Personally, I have no problem with you studying Kenpo the way you do.  I am sure that you do it well and that your system works well for you and others.  Personally I do find value in the extensions, but I've also found that the counterpoint exercises help people develop sponteneity.

I respect your right to study and teach Kenpo in your own manner.  I'm troubled that you show such deep direspect for people who differ from your opinion.  Kenpo is bigger than that.

Jeff


----------



## kenpoangel

Could you define, "spontaneity," exactly for us, Jeff?

Thanks,
Robert


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Wrong.
> 
> First, Zach is an awesome kenpoist. Don't short his knowlege of Kenpo nor his ability to use it.
> 
> Second, he has devised a new way to study kenpo and perhaps to more quickly gain mastery. I have no problems if others don't wish to use counterpoint training, and I'm sure Zach doesn't care. I suspect that if Mr. Parker were here he would at least be intrigued by Counterpoint training.
> 
> Third. What is this nonsense about only one way to do a technique and the need to fit everything into the equation formula. I never met Mr. Parker, but in the video tapes I've seen he's never done a technique the same way twice and never "by the book."
> 
> Personally, I have no problem with you studying Kenpo the way you do. I am sure that you do it well and that your system works well for you and others. Personally I do find value in the extensions, but I've also found that the counterpoint exercises help people develop sponteneity.
> 
> I respect your right to study and teach Kenpo in your own manner. I'm troubled that you show such deep direspect for people who differ from your opinion. Kenpo is bigger than that.
> 
> Jeff


1)  When did I short his knowledge or abilities in that post?

2)  Did he truly devise a new way to study Kenpo?  Please explain.

3)  When did I say there was only one way to do a technique?   You say Mr. Parker never did the same thing twice so he must've been using the equation fomula in order to do that, correct?  Mr. Parker WROTE THE BOOK, as such, he understood more than all of us and was never bound by it.

4)  You've never met me, there is no way you can know how I can do Kenpo.

5)  When I hear or see BS I call BS, and if it sounds disrespectful to you, Oh Well.

DarK LorD


----------



## kenpoworks

I do not always agree with DLK, But I have MAXIMUM respect for the way he fights his corner.
The problem people have with emptying the cup is that for some reason they think they are disregarding what's been learned.
On the contrary you absorb (DRINK) the contents of the cup before refilling it, that knowledge becomes part of your understanding. 
You dont "unlearn".
Rich


----------



## kenpoworks

Whoops did i say DLK< i meant DKL.

So sorry.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> I do not always agree with DLK, But I have MAXIMUM respect for the way he fights his corner.
> The problem people have with emptying the cup is that for some reason they think they are disregarding what's been learned.
> On the contrary you absorb (DRINK) the contents of the cup before refilling it, that knowledge becomes part of your understanding.
> You dont "unlearn".
> Rich


Good analogy but the problem is people do carry a full cup, slowly ingesting the content.    Sometimes the content is too great too absorb at one sitting and takes time though they actively seek more to ingest during periods of drought, hence, if you want more, you must obtain a larger vessel to ingest at your own pace and not drain your cup.

P.S. Don't worry about the intials, it's just a ruse



DarK LorD


----------



## rmcrobertson

There's a fundamental misunderstanding, here, of what terms like, "creativity," and "spontaneity," mean in kenpo.

Here's a couple of things they do NOT mean: a) making up something on the fly that completely differs from what you've learned before; b) going completely outside the kenpo system; c) simply modifying what you've already learned.

The, 'equation formula," really, isn't a serious mathematical formula--it's more like a metaphor for the idea of recombining the bits and pieces that you have available, if you're well-taught; if you prefer, it's  like some of the formulae you see in anthropology/sociology/folklore journals, where they're trying to map out the underlying structures from which people, or their societies, or their literatures and arts, generate what appears to be, "new," and "creative," texts of one wort or another.

If you prefer, think of games of poker: the underlying deck's always the same, there are certain rules for what's a meaningful hand, or play, and rules for what's not meaningful. One is creative to the extent that one plays a good hand, understands the rules, bets wisely, has a decent grasp of odds, evaluates opponents well. 

It's NOT that you keep introducing new cards out of nowhere (yes, poker can have wild cards, but these are  still embedded in the basic deck and the rules for playing hands), or suddenly discover brand new rules. Even weird variations of poker are only variations on the same old basic games.

I think it's a fundamental, serious misunderstanding to call some of the stuff I've seen on these forums, "new," or, "innovative," or  creative." It's really just one thing or another that advanced practitioner has figured out--which is, of course, more than fine--but then turned around and started teaching as something new and innovative. Nope; not usually.

Look at the discussion of "Glancing Lance." The Big News about changing the technique, so far as I can see, is simply upgrades within the "original," technique itself. There is one exception to this--an error; a poster says that the tech starts with stepping back to 6:00 in response to a kinfe thrust twoards 6:00, when the basic kenpo wiring says, get off line....and it looks to me as though some of the "changes," which follow are logical outcomes of that starting error. But others are in fact simply minor, perfectly-reasonable, effective variations on the base technique. Which I've seen before. Or blundered into myself.

The flaw in the reasoning, in other words, certainly isn't in claiming that something works when it doesn't. it'll work. And it isn't in claiming that this is, "more effective;" it probably is. The flaw is in claiming that this is now the One Right Way, and in teaching students so that their ability to be "innovative," becomes limited.

I think some folks have it backward. Being rigorous about, "the ideal," isn't what limits you. Being  merely, "creative," is what does it--because without the solid ideal, you have no template from which to generate what's new.


----------



## Kenpodoc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> 1)  When did I short his knowledge or abilities in that post?
> 
> 2)  Did he truly devise a new way to study Kenpo?  Please explain.
> 
> 3)  When did I say there was only one way to do a technique?   You say Mr. Parker never did the same thing twice so he must've been using the equation fomula in order to do that, correct?  Mr. Parker WROTE THE BOOK, as such, he understood more than all of us and was never bound by it.
> 
> 4)  You've never met me, there is no way you can know how I can do Kenpo.
> 
> 5)  When I hear or see BS I call BS, and if it sounds disrespectful to you, Oh Well.
> 
> DarK LorD


1) When you stated that he did not understand the system.
2)He did devise a useful set of training drills.  You don't like them, that's fine, just don't disparage what others find useful.
3)Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it appeared that you disparaged Zachs system of training students to respond spontaneously to changes in an opponents response. 
4) Agreed.  I assume you are very good but have not had the pleasure of meeting you.
5) Agreed. Thus my response.  

Jeff


----------



## Kenpodoc

rmcrobertson said:
			
		

> There's a fundamental misunderstanding, here, of what terms like, "creativity," and "spontaneity," mean in kenpo.
> 
> Here's a couple of things they do NOT mean: a) making up something on the fly that completely differs from what you've learned before; b) going completely outside the kenpo system; c) simply modifying what you've already learned.
> 
> The, 'equation formula," really, isn't a serious mathematical formula--it's more like a metaphor for the idea of recombining the bits and pieces that you have available, if you're well-taught; if you prefer, it's  like some of the formulae you see in anthropology/sociology/folklore journals, where they're trying to map out the underlying structures from which people, or their societies, or their literatures and arts, generate what appears to be, "new," and "creative," texts of one wort or another.
> 
> If you prefer, think of games of poker: the underlying deck's always the same, there are certain rules for what's a meaningful hand, or play, and rules for what's not meaningful. One is creative to the extent that one plays a good hand, understands the rules, bets wisely, has a decent grasp of odds, evaluates opponents well.
> 
> It's NOT that you keep introducing new cards out of nowhere (yes, poker can have wild cards, but these are  still embedded in the basic deck and the rules for playing hands), or suddenly discover brand new rules. Even weird variations of poker are only variations on the same old basic games.
> 
> I think it's a fundamental, serious misunderstanding to call some of the stuff I've seen on these forums, "new," or, "innovative," or  creative." It's really just one thing or another that advanced practitioner has figured out--which is, of course, more than fine--but then turned around and started teaching as something new and innovative. Nope; not usually.
> 
> Look at the discussion of "Glancing Lance." The Big News about changing the technique, so far as I can see, is simply upgrades within the "original," technique itself. There is one exception to this--an error; a poster says that the tech starts with stepping back to 6:00 in response to a kinfe thrust twoards 6:00, when the basic kenpo wiring says, get off line....and it looks to me as though some of the "changes," which follow are logical outcomes of that starting error. But others are in fact simply minor, perfectly-reasonable, effective variations on the base technique. Which I've seen before. Or blundered into myself.
> 
> The flaw in the reasoning, in other words, certainly isn't in claiming that something works when it doesn't. it'll work. And it isn't in claiming that this is, "more effective;" it probably is. The flaw is in claiming that this is now the One Right Way, and in teaching students so that their ability to be "innovative," becomes limited.
> 
> I think some folks have it backward. Being rigorous about, "the ideal," isn't what limits you. Being  merely, "creative," is what does it--because without the solid ideal, you have no template from which to generate what's new.


Agreed (in general). Extensions don't work without solid basics and without solid ideal entries.  Counterpoint training in no way changes this.  In my experience the extensions add to the ability to express one's self in kenpo.  They introduce new movements and new twists on movements.  Being merely creative is not what counterpoint training is about.  The training is merely one more way to help students to learn how to move spontaneously and not to freeze when confronted by new movement.  Fighting is by its own nature messy. The training has recieved approval by Huk Planas, Lee Wedlake, Frank Trejo and others.  You don't have to like the drills, but I'm offended when it is suggested that Zach does not know Kenpo because he's looking for ways to help train students to be better.  

Jeff


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> 1) When you stated that he did not understand the system.
> 2)He did devise a useful set of training drills. You don't like them, that's fine, just don't disparage what others find useful.
> 3)Perhaps I misunderstood you, but it appeared that you disparaged Zachs system of training students to respond spontaneously to changes in an opponents response.
> 4) Agreed. I assume you are very good but have not had the pleasure of meeting you.
> 5) Agreed. Thus my response.
> 
> Jeff


1)This is what I said, if Zach fits the paradigm then so be it.  I never mentioned his name in my statement, you only interpreted it that way.

I've found the reason people alter the system is because they don't understand it. I can honestly say I've felt the same way about many of the same issues with Kenpo when my knowledge of it was limited (notice the past tense). As I gained more insight I'm starting to see what Mr. Parker saw when he created them, and why he left us with the curriculum outlined in Book 5 of II. Extensions are not fantasy, nor are they designed for a particular technique as many of the extensions are interchangeable. 


2) Did he design them or were they already there, or found them someplace like Pekrit tessia whatever or some Kali drills?   These sensitivity drills exist in alot of systems, it's the instructors knowledge or lack thereof that determines if the students realize their potential with them.

3) Did I?

4)  Probably best if you didn't, you probably wouldn't like me anyhow.

5) There ya go!

DarK LorD


----------



## Kenpodoc

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> 1)This is what I said, if Zach fits the paradigm then so be it.  I never mentioned his name in my statement, you only interpreted it that way.
> 
> I've found the reason people alter the system is because they don't understand it. I can honestly say I've felt the same way about many of the same issues with Kenpo when my knowledge of it was limited (notice the past tense). As I gained more insight I'm starting to see what Mr. Parker saw when he created them, and why he left us with the curriculum outlined in Book 5 of II. Extensions are not fantasy, nor are they designed for a particular technique as many of the extensions are interchangeable.
> 
> 
> 2) Did he design them or were they already there, or found them someplace like Pekrit tessia whatever or some Kali drills?   These sensitivity drills exist in alot of systems, it's the instructors knowledge or lack thereof that determines if the students realize their potential with them.
> 
> 3) Did I?
> 
> 4)  Probably best if you didn't, you probably wouldn't like me anyhow.
> 
> 5) There ya go!
> 
> DarK LorD


1)Counterpoint fits the system.
2)It's a training method the information is already in the system.
3)I believe you did, if you didn't mean to just say so.
4)I might not. Can't judge till I meet you. Personally I'm comfortable working with people with strong opinions as long as they can deal with my right to disagree.
5)A point of agreement.

Jeff


----------



## kenpoworks

Ha.Ha. DKL, I think those who want more before they have finished what they have are just 
"GREEDY BUGGERS".
Mucho Respecto


----------



## kenpoworks

Getting back to "Extensions", may be some one could help me out.
Extensions are part of "THE" system and I have studied them since the early eighties (and have personally discovered a lot).
But! over the years questioning various "in the know" instructors I have found that the story of their authenticity varies greatly from one teacher to another.

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find a politically or personally unbiased insight into the creation of Extensions.

Please reply publically (on the forum) or personally.

with respect 

Rich


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Getting back to "Extensions", may be some one could help me out.
> Extensions are part of "THE" system and I have studied them since the early eighties (and have personally discovered a lot).
> But! over the years questioning various "in the know" instructors I have found that the story of their authenticity varies greatly from one teacher to another.
> 
> Can anyone point me in the right direction to find a politically or personally unbiased insight into the creation of Extensions.
> 
> Please reply publically (on the forum) or personally.
> 
> with respect
> 
> Rich


If you're going off the original extensions, I don't sweat it as Mr. Parker had full say in the creation and implementation into the system.   I was told Mr. Parker would put them on the desk of the West LA studio and have the senior instructors go thru them, but that's a biased view.   The new ones other orgs. are teaching just don't fit from what I've seen, don't know who created those , I don't think it was Mr. Parker tho.

DarK LorD


----------



## kenpoworks

Thanks,

I have heard a simular tale except, Mr. P., would be "on the couch" with various people performing 3 or 4  "versions of techniques", Then Mr. P would say write up the second version, as a base, but I dunno "its a tale".
Also , maybe this "tale" above refers to basic techniques.
Rich
ps I don't have a problem with extensions, just historically curious.


----------



## parkerkarate

I find nothing wrong with extensions. I find most of them fun to learn. Most of them have a meaning, what it is I am not totally shure about because my brain is totally fried right now because I have been studying for tests for the past few months for college. LOL. But any ways overkill, though in most techniques are the idea, that is not the case in some of the extensions. If that makes any sense. I could be totally wrong though.


----------



## MJS

Reviving this thread.

MJS


----------



## Kenpoist

I probably don't have the experience as many of the participants of this post, but here is my two cents worth.
The extensions are added in to build on our repatoire of movement for any given attack or scenario.  As mentioned previously the "what if" scenario and more specifically
1) grafting - when "you" chose to change or alter a technique
2) change up - when "your attacker" forces you to change/alter your attack.
Just because you learn the extension doesn't mean you have to get every strike from the technique on your attacker, but it is there should your first strikes not be effective.  

I tend to go along more with DKL philosophy of being a traditionalist. SGM Parker thought of everything (look at category of completion).  Many kenpo styles of today don't seem to teach all the "why's" and "how's" of the art and people are getting half of the system.  Techniques are being altered because people don't understand them or find it too tough to do them. Extensions are being taught to some at the onset - when they have not yet mastered the basics.

I also don't believe in this tip-tap philosophy of kenpo. Hit them as fast as you can (with no effect or power). 

Here is your order of importance:
1) Accuracy
2) Power
3) speed


----------



## MJS

Kenpoist said:
			
		

> I probably don't have the experience as many of the participants of this post, but here is my two cents worth.
> The extensions are added in to build on our repatoire of movement for any given attack or scenario. As mentioned previously the "what if" scenario and more specifically
> 1) grafting - when "you" chose to change or alter a technique
> 2) change up - when "your attacker" forces you to change/alter your attack.
> Just because you learn the extension doesn't mean you have to get every strike from the technique on your attacker, but it is there should your first strikes not be effective.
> 
> I tend to go along more with DKL philosophy of being a traditionalist. SGM Parker thought of everything (look at category of completion). Many kenpo styles of today don't seem to teach all the "why's" and "how's" of the art and people are getting half of the system. Techniques are being altered because people don't understand them or find it too tough to do them. Extensions are being taught to some at the onset - when they have not yet mastered the basics.
> 
> I also don't believe in this tip-tap philosophy of kenpo. Hit them as fast as you can (with no effect or power).
> 
> Here is your order of importance:
> 1) Accuracy
> 2) Power
> 3) speed


 
Don't short change yourself on your experience level.  Your post was full of very good points!!  IMHO, the extensions have their purpose in the art.

Mike


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

Though there are somethings that I have disgreed on this board with this one I am split.  I do think that one should learn the entire system but where does the information end that Mr Parker approved?  There are several sets and forms that were "approved" by Mr Parker for what ever reason were not considered to be a nessary part of the kenpo puzzle (I have no clue why because I was not there and never had the honor to meet the man.) However, ask yourself why are only some of the 1st generation seniors teaching/require certain material.

I have found that the 154 + orange and purple extension are most widely taught, forms though 6. and  blocking, finger, 2 man and staff set  That being said I think there is useful information in anything that you do and if your instructor requires it I am sure he has his reason.  Just be sure that those reason are not to keeo you paying.

Now,  I think that anyone who wants to learn more about counter-point  should really try to look at it with an open mind and if you have questions give Zach a call.  I have had the pleasure to going up to TN and spending an entire weekend with him going over the counter-point system and it is a great training tool.  He will quickly make you a believer and he with do it with honesty and class.  Quite frankly he is a breath of fresh air and can back everything he teach up.

There are many kenpoist out there who think EPAK is the end all to be all but please remenber there are no superior arts and only superior artist.  If you are seriously interested in becoming a complete martial artist you should get experience in other systems and Ed Parker himself did this.  I myself do experiement in Kali as well as several submission grappling systems along with EPAK and that just makes me a better martial artist.

Just my opinion.

Best Regards to all.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> Though there are somethings that I have disgreed on this board with this one I am split. I do think that one should learn the entire system but where does the information end that Mr Parker approved? There are several sets and forms that were "approved" by Mr Parker for what ever reason were not considered to be a nessary part of the kenpo puzzle (I have no clue why because I was not there and never had the honor to meet the man.) However, ask yourself why are only some of the 1st generation seniors teaching/require certain material.
> 
> I have found that the 154 + orange and purple extension are most widely taught, forms though 6. and blocking, finger, 2 man and staff set That being said I think there is useful information in anything that you do and if your instructor requires it I am sure he has his reason. Just be sure that those reason are not to keeo you paying.
> 
> Now, I think that anyone who wants to learn more about counter-point should really try to look at it with an open mind and if you have questions give Zach a call. I have had the pleasure to going up to TN and spending an entire weekend with him going over the counter-point system and it is a great training tool. He will quickly make you a believer and he with do it with honesty and class. Quite frankly he is a breath of fresh air and can back everything he teach up.
> 
> There are many kenpoist out there who think EPAK is the end all to be all but please remenber there are no superior arts and only superior artist. If you are seriously interested in becoming a complete martial artist you should get experience in other systems and Ed Parker himself did this. I myself do experiement in Kali as well as several submission grappling systems along with EPAK and that just makes me a better martial artist.
> 
> Just my opinion.
> 
> Best Regards to all.


 

Seems to me you bought the hype about Kenpo not being all encompassing hook, line, and sinker.   Shame you're paying money for bad instruction in the art of AK.   If people tend to think they need to add anything to Kenpo, it's just because they either 1)don't do it well 2) don't understand the nature of Kenpo  3) both 1 & 2.

DarK LorD


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

DKL,

Are you stating that only those under Larry Tatum have been taught EPAK correctly?


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> DKL,
> 
> Are you stating that only those under Larry Tatum have been taught EPAK correctly?


 
Is that what I posted?   I just stated the obvious flaws I've see amongst Kenpo practicioners.

DarK LorD


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

DKL,

And what do you think that those flaws are?


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> DKL,
> 
> And what do you think that those flaws are?


 
1) Students not getting rock solid basics,ie. stances, blocks, alignment etc.

2) Not enough emphasis taught in the nature of the attack

3) Not knowing the attack

4) altering techs and forms for a specific person and teaching it that way

5) Too generic and not enough comprehension of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd person perspectives

6) What- ifing techs at too early a stage in training,  not enough emphasis on ideal phase

7) Little to no knowledge of dimensional zone theory

And those are just a few I pulled off the top of my head in a rush to get to the studio in a minute.

DarK LorD


----------



## Atlanta-Kenpo

DKL,

Those are all topics that I would completely agree with you on that are not as widely taught.  Maybe you could share with the Kenpo community some of your knowlegde on these topics.  Perhaps, even on your web site.  I know that many of us would really appreciate it.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> DKL,
> 
> Those are all topics that I would completely agree with you on that are not as widely taught. Maybe you could share with the Kenpo community some of your knowlegde on these topics. Perhaps, even on your web site. I know that many of us would really appreciate it.


 
Well, that's a horse of a different color, people don't want to hear the truth about what they're doing unless it's good.    I'm called "The Invalidator" for a reason, I make people second guess what they're doing, show them a more effective means to the end, and most times I'm ignored because it makes them work harder, or use more effort.   People inherently want the easy route, I'm not willing to give it to them, and hence the closed ears.    My instructor believes I'm on the right path, and it seems to mirror his own, and my depth of knowledge has increasede more in the last 3 or 4 years than any other time in my training because of him.    From what I've seen, those already invested in an org. where they are happy with mediocrity will seldom listen to those that have much more to offer, RIGHT PETE?  LOL.

DarK LorD


----------



## Sapper6

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> I'm called "The Invalidator" for a reason...
> 
> DarK LorD


 
really?  i thought people called you an *** because you made them feel sub-standard and worthless.  my bad.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> really? i thought people called you an *** because you made them feel sub-standard and worthless. my bad.


 
Wow, what a nice CHRISTIAN thing to say, why am I not shocked?

OH yea, If I made you feel that way, there's a reason, it's because you are substandard and worthless!!!!!

Look at what you're doing with your taglines, promoting your own moral self-rightessnous.

DarK LorD


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Atlanta-Kenpo said:
			
		

> DKL,
> 
> Those are all topics that I would completely agree with you on that are not as widely taught. Maybe you could share with the Kenpo community some of your knowlegde on these topics. Perhaps, even on your web site. I know that many of us would really appreciate it.


 
Ok, a few words of advice, subjugate yourself to as many Kenpoists as you possibley can, it offers contrast and the ability to think with an informed opinion.

Don't stare at the light, you'll only see the whiteness, a deeper understanding brings out the full spectrum of colors that make it that way.

DarK LorD


----------



## Sapper6

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Wow, what a nice CHRISTIAN thing to say, why am I not shocked?
> 
> OH yea, If I made you feel that way, there's a reason, it's because you are substandard and worthless!!!!!
> 
> DarK LorD


 
LOL!  too funny

no worries here.  

you're shocked?  why?  christianity=hypocrisy doesn't really apply here, to me.  i was speaking more for the unspoken masses if anything else.  i'm certainly not offended by your pride or candor...that's not necessarily a bad thing.

sorry to disappoint you, but, your comments certainly do not make me feel substandard and worthless.  i'm not that shallow.

as i said, speaking more for others...from what i've seen, that is, in the "virtual" kenpo community.

as for "invalidator"...that's yet to be determined...regardless of who gave you that glorious title.  you just have a different reference point.

*"We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away."*



> Look at what you're doing with your taglines, promoting your own moral *self-rightessnous*.



if you say so.  an incorrect assumption on your part.

why the need for such defensive behavior?  **sigh**



cheers.:asian:

btw, i know you're real big on correcting people with typos, so i thought i'd help you out... it's *self-righteousness*.


----------



## MJS

:-offtopic 

Come on guys, lets avoid the name calling and personal shots and continue a friendly   discussion about the extensions.

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> LOL! too funny
> 
> no worries here.
> 
> you're shocked? why? christianity=hypocrisy doesn't really apply here, to me. i was speaking more for the unspoken masses if anything else. i'm certainly not offended by your pride or candor...that's not necessarily a bad thing.
> 
> sorry to disappoint you, but, your comments certainly do not make me feel substandard and worthless. i'm not that shallow.
> 
> as i said, speaking more for others...from what i've seen, that is, in the "virtual" kenpo community.
> 
> as for "invalidator"...that's yet to be determined...regardless of who gave you that glorious title. you just have a different reference point.
> 
> *"We cling to our own point of view, as though everything depended on it. Yet our opinions have no permanence; like autumn and winter, they gradually pass away."*
> 
> 
> 
> if you say so. an incorrect assumption on your part.
> 
> why the need for such defensive behavior? **sigh**
> 
> 
> 
> cheers.:asian:
> 
> btw, i know you're real big on correcting people with typos, so i thought i'd help you out... it's *self-righteousness*.


 
Yep, got me on a typo, no doubt, good for you, but you still have not contributed one thing to the thread topic of extensions.    

And my question was, "why am I NOT shocked?".

DarK LorD


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## Gemini

*Moderator Note.* 
Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Don Goodwin-
-MT Moderator-


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