# America: Brave? Free?



## DeLamar.J (Feb 21, 2010)

This guy makes some good points about America not being as free and as brave as we think.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 21, 2010)

I think he's a nut.  I suspect the rocking back and forth thing is indicative of some serious mental problems.  And he ought to pick up his room before his parents get home.


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## xJOHNx (Feb 21, 2010)

Seems like he cut the video on more than one occassion.

Strongly oppinionated guy though!


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## blindsage (Feb 22, 2010)

Sure he has some interesting things to say, at a fairly mediocre intellectual level. People who's ego is the biggest part of their personality screw up their own arguments faster than anybody else could for them.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 22, 2010)

Why don't we all pool some money to buy a one way ticket for this nitwit and *SEND HIM TO CUBA*. He can then find out just what not being free is all about.

And maybe after he paddles back to Florida we can send him to some third world African country... say Zimbabwe or Hugos Venezuela, and let him find out more about what a real dictator is all about.

Id send him to Zimbabwe first. I understand Mugbe is in need of some fresh meat.
Deaf


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 22, 2010)

Why wouldn't we take pride in the fact that our ancestors fought and defended Fort McHenry...or any other action that took place in defense of the principles for which we hold dear? ...DUH? 

We should be ashamed if we do not continue that fine tradition. It's a reminder... Hello? McFly? 

How can "they" claim any greatness in the first place? ....really? If you're dumb enough to actually ask that question I wonder if a retort would actually serve any purpose. How about the fact that you have the rights you have today becuase of it. Like the right to blab on the internet and display your obvious ignorance to the world at large. 

Yes, men of all nationalities take part in the wars of their countries; however, the motivations vary... dork. 

"Nazi soldiers" did not valiantly repell American forces... idiot. This guy has done no research... very irritating to me. All Germans did not support the Nazi movement. What a moron. He thinks that the "culture" of Nazi Germany was supported by the majority. Did I mention this guy is a moron? 

He is right about Hitler not being a "good person" because he fought against Stalin and vice versa. But that's trivial at best... -feh

"By what standard can America be judged?" How about our principles, our beliefs, and how we conduct ourselves. Sure, "bravery" and "freedom" are great things to support... but they are not the cornerstones of "goodness." 

Sorry... I had to cut this guy off... He's an idiot. He has no education in History and I doubt seriously he's had any education in Ethics.


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## SensibleManiac (Feb 22, 2010)

Basically someone who likes the sound of their own voice.

Besides that everyone knows by now that war is all about money right?


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 22, 2010)

Perhaps that LSD mind set has prevented him from getting a hair cut and getting a real job. LOL I noticed a few more links pertaining to drug use. On the other hand he is absolutly right.
Sean


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 23, 2010)

celtic_crippler said:


> "By what standard can America be judged?" How about our principles, our beliefs, and *how we conduct ourselves*. Sure, "bravery" and "freedom" are great things to support... but they are not the cornerstones of "goodness."



The CIA engineered fall of the Shah in Iran in the sixties, which gave rise to the current fundie regime?
The CIA engineered rise of Saddam? The weapons he got from the US?
Funding both sides of the Iran - Iraq war?
Starting the current war in Iraq over US lies?

Make no mistake I am not 'US bashing'. I am just pointing out that the conduct of the US is not beyond repoach. The US has much to be proud of but also a lot to be ashamed of, just like any other nation out there.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> The CIA engineered fall of the Shah in Iran in the sixties, which gave rise to the current fundie regime?
> The CIA engineered rise of Saddam? The weapons he got from the US?
> Funding both sides of the Iran - Iraq war?
> Starting the current war in Iraq over US lies?


Oh Dear!! I wonder why millions of people, from all nations, every year try to attempt to live in the US? Could it be that living in a society, built around the Bill of Rights is condusive to the well being of all people? Maybe.
What I do know is that the people of the US are the most generous people on the planet. More personal wealth and tax dollars per capita are given by Americans than any other nation on earth.
Yes the CIA engineered the rise of Saddam and why not. There was a time he was useful to the US. When he became a liability, he got the hammer, big deal. Yes the US funded both sides of the Iran Iraq war. Does anyone here not agree that if Saddam and the Ayatollah had blown each other's regimes to bits, their people would PROBABLY been better off.
The US was built on noble principals and Americans are quite right to call their founders and the people fighting against terrorists today heroes.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 23, 2010)

yorkshirelad said:


> Oh Dear!! I wonder why millions of people, from all nations, every year try to attempt to live in the US? Could it be that living in a society, built around the Bill of Rights is condusive to the well being of all people? Maybe.



Because the US is close to a couple of hellholes from which people try to escape. Also if you haven't noticed, your bill of rights is really nothing special. Most western democratic countries have a constitution that is conductive to the well being of all.



yorkshirelad said:


> What I do know is that the people of the US are the most generous people on the planet. More personal wealth and tax dollars per capita are given by Americans than any other nation on earth.



I do not contest that.



yorkshirelad said:


> Yes the CIA engineered the rise of Saddam and why not. There was a time he was useful to the US. When he became a liability, he got the hammer, *big deal.* Yes the US funded both sides of the Iran Iraq war. Does anyone here not agree that if Saddam and the Ayatollah had blown each other's regimes to bits, their people would PROBABLY been better off.
> The US was built on noble principals and Americans are quite right to call their founders and the people fighting against terrorists today heroes.



It was probably a big deal to the hundreds of thousands who died in the turmoil, or who lost their family. The attitude of causing turmoil and death on a global scale just to further the US interests is what makes the rest of the world resent it.

More people have died in Iraq since the start of the current war than under the regime of Saddam. And they will continue to do so because of the continued occupation of Iraq, which for all intents and purposes looks more and more like it's going to be to the US what Northern Ireland became to the UK.

The Americans in Iraq are not fighting terrorists. They are fighting people who want to kick them out of their own land.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Because the US is close to a couple of hellholes from which people try to escape.


 
If I remember my Geography correctly, Asia isn't that close... and neither is Europe... or Africa... Just what "hellhole" are you referring to exactly? Canada? Odd... I've visited Canada on several occasions and I wouldn't equate it to a "hellhole"... quite the opposite really.  



Bruno@MT said:


> Also if you haven't noticed, your bill of rights is really nothing special. Most western democratic countries have a constitution that is conductive to the well being of all.


 
...and what do you think many of them based theirs on? :idea:

Anyway, it might not be "special" to you, but we hold it pretty damn dear as well as anybody else who cherishes freedom and liberty.  



Bruno@MT said:


> I do not contest that.


 
Why not? You ignore the facts in regards to everything else. 



Bruno@MT said:


> It was probably a big deal to the hundreds of thousands who died in the turmoil, or who lost their family. The attitude of causing turmoil and death on a global scale just to further the US interests is what makes the rest of the world resent it.


 
Really? I thought it was because a lot of them resent the fact that they lack the resourcs to further their own interests on the same scale. 

Every country wants to protect and further their interests. Some have more resources to achieve this than others. 

And contrary to your assertion, we do use other methods besides _turmoil and death_. I'm sure Haiti is quite happy we took an "interest" in them. :shrug:

Don't hate the player, hate the game. 



Bruno@MT said:


> More people have died in Iraq since the start of the current war than under the regime of Saddam. And they will continue to do so because of the continued occupation of Iraq, which for all intents and purposes looks more and more like it's going to be to the US what Northern Ireland became to the UK.


 
Where do you get your information from?

According to the Documental Centre for Human Rights in Iraq Saddam was responsible for approximately 600,000+ civilian executions; including the murder of some odd 100,000 Iraqi Kurds through the use of such horrendous methods as chemical weapons. 

According to the Iraq Body Count Project, there have been approximately 95,000 to 100,000 civilian deaths since the war began. All of which, I may point out, are not even a direct result of Americans themselves but of terrorist operating within Iraq. Americans are not the ones blowing up vehicles in civilian populated centers, foreign Arab fighters are. 

I hope you're better at Math than you are Geography... 



Bruno@MT said:


> The Americans in Iraq are not fighting terrorists. They are fighting people who want to kick them out of their own land.


 
You are one seriously misinformed individual. 

Most of the car-bombings for example have been linked to foreign Arab fighters associated with the Al-Qaida network. In other words, not Iraqis and therefore not people fighting for "their" land. 

You need to stop drinking that Hater-aid and get your facts straight.


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## CoryKS (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> More people have died in Iraq since the start of the current war than under the regime of Saddam. And they will continue to do so because of the continued occupation of Iraq, which for all intents and purposes looks more and more like it's going to be to the US what Northern Ireland became to the UK.


 
Your sources.  Show us them.


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## Blade96 (Feb 23, 2010)

of course america may not be as free and brave as we think. We don't really have full democracy either. as Lincoln defined it, "of the people, by the people, for the people" do we really have that 100%? Nah. not really. we try for it but we dont have it totally. oftentimes it only looks like it.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 23, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> of course america may not be as free and brave as we think. We don't really have full democracy either. as Lincoln defined it, "of the people, by the people, for the people" do we really have that 100%? Nah. not really. we try for it but we dont have it totally. oftentimes it only looks like it.


 
Unfortunately, we have given up much since the inception of this country but I remain hopeful that we'll get at least some of those freedoms back. I think the fact that Mass. now has a Republican Senator speaks volumes in regards to the general attitude of Americans today. We're tolerant, often times too tolerant I think, but it's obvious at this point that we've had enough of the poor representation, irresponsible leadership, and elitist attitude of those on Capital Hill. 

And no, the US never was nor was it inteded to be a "Democracy." It was set up as a "Republic". Democracies are dangerous and subject to "mob rule" but this is perhaps a topic for another thread.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 23, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Your sources.  Show us them.



over 1.3 million sice the start of th war
http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq

hundreds of thousands died because of saddams actions
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,239897,00.html

In all likelihood, depending on who did the tallying and what was included, one will be higher than the other. Still, the number of deaths since the start of the war is far from insignificant, and they have been tallied in a much shorter time period than the reign of saddam


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## CoryKS (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> over 1.3 million sice the start of th war
> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq
> 
> hundreds of thousands died because of saddams actions
> ...


 
Color me surprised that they used the ORB survey to derive their numbers.  It's the one that declares a death count 1000% higher than any other survey.  



> The number is shocking and sobering. It is at least 10 times greater than most estimates cited in the US media, *yet it is based on a scientific study of violent Iraqi deaths caused by the U.S.-led invasion of March 2003*.


 
And what scientific method did they use, pray tell?

From Wikipedia:


> The ORB estimate was performed by a random survey of 1,720 adults aged 18+, out of which 1,499 responded, in fifteen of the eighteen governorates within Iraq, between August 12 and August 19, 2007.


 
Umm... yeah.  

If you're interested, here's the Wiki page for Iraqi body count studies.  Most of them place the body count in the +/-100K range, but then again they use unscientific methods like counting actual bodies.


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## yorkshirelad (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Because the US is close to a couple of hellholes from which people try to escape. Also if you haven't noticed, *your bill* *of rights* is really nothing special.
> .


 Bruno, I'm actually British, hence the name Yorkshirelad. I came to the US in pursuit of a better life. I was recently in Basic training at Fort Benning  Georgia and shared a bay with 2 Kenyans, 1 Cameroonian, 1 Frenchman, 1 Venezuelan, 3 Mexicans and 2 Poles. All of these men had a similar view of the US as I.
I take it that you're Canadian and have Her Majesty as the head of state. I have great respect and admiration for the Queen and the monarchy in general, but the history of the British monarchy and 'the empire on which the sun never set' is strewn with the destruction of indigenous people around the world including Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain started the  mess in Iraq in the early 20th century at the time of King fisul bin Hussein.
Every powerful nation has to protect their interests and does so. Look at the histories of Britain, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal and Germany.
The US is a great nation amoung other nations because it gives hope to people all over the world, who yearn for the freedoms I have here. I, for one wouldn't want to live anywhere else.


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## celtic_crippler (Feb 23, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> over 1.3 million sice the start of th war
> http://www.justforeignpolicy.org/iraq
> 
> In all likelihood, depending on who did the tallying and what was included, one will be higher than the other. Still, the number of deaths since the start of the war is far from insignificant, and they have been tallied in a much shorter time period than the reign of saddam


 
First, your source citing 1.3 million deaths is a biased website with an agenda and, as CoryKS points out below, uses a survey method instead actual body counts. 

Their "Mission" statement should have been a clue for you: 
_Just Foreign Policy is an independent and non-partisan membership organization dedicated to reforming U.S. foreign policy by mobilizing and organizing the broad majority of Americans who want a foreign policy based on diplomacy, law and cooperation._



CoryKS said:


> Color me surprised that they used the ORB survey to derive their numbers. It's the one that declares a death count 1000% higher than any other survey.
> 
> And what scientific method did they use, pray tell?
> 
> ...


 
What?! You mean they actually verified and counted the actual dead bodies instead of asking the opinion of a local goat herder about how many people he thought had died as a result of the infidel American invasion? 

Brilliant! I can't believe that method wasn't thought of before! 



yorkshirelad said:


> Bruno, I'm actually British, hence the name Yorkshirelad. I came to the US in pursuit of a better life. I was recently in Basic training at Fort Benning Georgia and shared a bay with 2 Kenyans, 1 Cameroonian, 1 Frenchman, 1 Venezuelan, 3 Mexicans and 2 Poles. All of these men had a similar view of the US as I.
> I take it that you're Canadian and have Her Majesty as the head of state. I have great respect and admiration for the Queen and the monarchy in general, but the history of the British monarchy and 'the empire on which the sun never set' is strewn with the destruction of indigenous people around the world including Iraq and Afghanistan. Britain started the mess in Iraq in the early 20th century at the time of King fisul bin Hussein.
> Every powerful nation has to protect their interests and does so. Look at the histories of Britain, France, Spain, Holland, Portugal and Germany.
> The US is a great nation amoung other nations because it gives hope to people all over the world, who yearn for the freedoms I have here. I, for one wouldn't want to live anywhere else.


 
Wow... I bet you're glad to be out of that "hellhole" eh? Good thing you didn't have to travel far to get here either. 

Seriously though, thank you for the reality check. I needed that. LOL


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## xJOHNx (Feb 23, 2010)

CCrippler, you are a driven man, but honestly the sarcasm isn't going to get you anywhere in this discussion. Even the opposite, I only read the things you post diagonally.

As one of my American friends once said: "We have everything to be great, yet we choose to be blind to the results of our own actions".

And Europe isn't a hellhole, very friendly people here. Lots of socialists too :ultracool


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