# Physicians



## Rusty B (Oct 30, 2020)

Admittedly, I'm really shooting the breeze on this one, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.

I was watching Terminator 2 the other day, and one particular scene stood out to me: the Terminator was taking care of Sarah Connor's wounds - probably doing exactly what a physician would be doing, given the same materials and resources - and she asks him how he knew how to do all that.

He then responds to her by saying that he has detailed files on human anatomy.

Sarah then asks if it was designed to make him a more effective killer, to which the Terminator confirms.

That being said... if a young healthy physician in good shape with zero martial arts training was so inclined... could he or she use their extensive knowledge of the human anatomy to be as equally effective as a trained martial artist?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 30, 2020)

In an actual fight..no. At least not based on my experience sparring with physicians without (or with some) martial arts experience. Doesn't seem to make them any better than other newcomers, except learning they pick up on some theoretical stuff quicker (which might just be a fast learner thing). 

If they were already dominating a fight, or had the other person immobile however, I'm sure they could do much more damage/more specific damage to someone's immobile body than the average martial artist. Especially if they have some tools with them.


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## Rusty B (Oct 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> In an actual fight..no. At least not based on my experience sparring with physicians without (or with some) martial arts experience.



Right, in this scenario, the physicians you're sparring with are are using techniques with in the specific martial art.

So I'm not trying to suggest that a physician can throw a punch any better than someone else.

However, given that different parts of the body are more sensitive and fragile than others - and physicians are far more likely to know which is which - could they potentially exploit that?

Let's say, for example, the physician in question is not a legit tough guy; but he's no pushover either. He's been in a few fights growing up, and he's won someone lost some.

He then goes on to become a physician.

Is he potentially more dangerous than he was before he went to med school?

Keyword is "potentially."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 30, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Right, in this scenario, the physicians you're sparring with are are using techniques with in the specific martial art.
> 
> So I'm not trying to suggest that a physician can throw a punch any better than someone else.
> 
> ...



They could exploit it, if they were able to fight, the same way martial artists in general know which parts of the bodies are more painful to hit. But in general a lot of it is common sense so, even if they were significantly better than their opponent to be able to exploit that, it still wouldn't be much different than the average guy knowing what parts are dangerous to hit/get hit.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 30, 2020)

You would still need a system and technique designed to exploit the area in discussion.  Then the physician would still need to be able to use the technique and system without being countered or knocked out.  I used to spar with people who were in the medical field and having that knowledge didn't make them better fighters.  For the most part their interest in medicine conflicted greatly with their ability to spar.  Their interest was more on helping people and not harming them. You would have to find a physician who was the reverse of that, meaning someone interested in how many ways he can harm someone.


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## yak sao (Oct 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> ...
> 
> ... Especially if they have some tools with them.



You mean like one of those little reflex hammer thingies?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 30, 2020)

No. It can help with understanding WHY something works, but having an advanced knowledge of A&P doesn't make you a better fighter. Training does that.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Oct 31, 2020)

I think some places the martial artists and the medical men were sort of mixed together.      If you use the saying if you want to learn how to break something, you learn how to fixit/make it first. 

But the validity would probbly go back to when its not as common knowledge now days where to hit.   Or in debunking some of the woo pressure points.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2020)

Rusty B said:


> Right, in this scenario, the physicians you're sparring with are are using techniques with in the specific martial art.
> 
> So I'm not trying to suggest that a physician can throw a punch any better than someone else.
> 
> ...


I'd say he has, perhaps, some minimal edge. The issue I'm having is in your OP, where you asked if that knowledge would let him be "as equally effective as a trained martial artist". No, it wouldn't. But it could help a trained person be more effective. For an untrained/inexperienced person, he simply doesn't have the tools to use that knowledge. A simpler analogy: knowing which way a board should be cut to get a smooth surface doesn't help if you have no tool with which to cut it.

So, an orthoped knows which joints are weak in which ways (mostly from seeing the inuries), and could exploit that if he knows how to attack them with strikes and grappling.


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## Kemposhot (Dec 19, 2020)

I tend to agree with many of the above posters.  I’ve trained with a physician for many years who is an excellent martial artists, as are his 2 children who also train.  

Aside from chiming in every so often on specific damage a particular move or strike causes he doesn’t bring it up as much.  In fact, I’ve often seen him defer to other students with backgrounds in policing or corrections when talking about actual combat applications of particular moves.  

I would note however, that his advice on stretching and improving flexibility has always been top notch and that is definitely a result of his experience and training as he referenced it when giving advice.


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2020)

We train with a vet. She is really good for spot stitching cuts and getting us dodgy X-rays. 

I don't know if the medical knowledge has made her any more lethal.


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## geezer (Dec 19, 2020)

Most physicians probably wouldn't automatically translate their medical training to effectively damaging someone in a fight in any special way. The most effective targets in a real fight vs. a resisting opponent are not esoteric pressure points.  They are pretty well known ...at least to anyone who ever practiced a fighting art or sport. 

My dad, a retired MD, now age 95, liked to say: "If you gotta fight, hit 'em first, hit 'em hard, _square in the nose_. A good shot in the nose takes a lot of the fight out of most guys. If it doesn't, then you know you've got your hands full!" I later found out he did some boxing in the Navy during WWII so maybe he knew something.

Then again he was an ENT ...a _nose_ doctor. So maybe he was just drumming up business!


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2020)

I imagine they'd use their skills not to fight, they could use meds instead so they could kill with impunity. We recently had a doctor here who did that, Shipman No one knows actually how many people he killed.


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## john_newman (Dec 21, 2020)

From my standpoint, it is not necessary to have complete knowledge about the anatomy of the body but in the same way, a fighter would be more dangerous if he knew the all soft points of a body.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2020)

drop bear said:


> We train with a vet. She is really good for spot stitching cuts and getting us dodgy X-rays.
> 
> I don't know if the medical knowledge has made her any more lethal.


I'm sure it does, but to maximize her advantage, she's not letting on how much.  Like the kung fu masters of yore, surprise is a big part of it.  Surprise... and fear.  And ruthless efficiency.

And an almost fanatical devotion to the pope... err..  I mean, the master.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine they'd use their skills not to fight, they could use meds instead so they could kill with impunity. We recently had a doctor here who did that, Shipman No one knows actually how many people he killed.


Wasn't there a guy in Germany doing the same thing?  Horrible.


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## Tez3 (Dec 22, 2020)

Steve said:


> Wasn't there a guy in Germany doing the same thing?  Horrible.



We've just had a nurse arrested for killing babies in hospital too, not many details until the trial but she got away with it for a long time.


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## Steve (Dec 22, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We've just had a nurse arrested for killing babies in hospital too, not many details until the trial but she got away with it for a long time.


That is heinous.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> We've just had a nurse arrested for killing babies in hospital too, not many details until the trial but she got away with it for a long time.


Unfortunately, we can't yet reliably identify people with this kind of pathology. Frighteningly easy for them to get into positions to do this kind of thing.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, we can't yet reliably identify people with this kind of pathology. Frighteningly easy for them to get into positions to do this kind of thing.


I am, frankly, shocked to learn that serial murder by healthcare professionals is a LOT more common than I had ever imagined.  I am even more shocked to learn that they often see it as humane euthanization.  It's amazing how people can get twisted around to rationalizing atrocity.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2020)

Steve said:


> I am, frankly, shocked to learn that serial murder by healthcare professionals is a LOT more common than I had ever imagined.  I am even more shocked to learn that they often see it as humane euthanization.  It's amazing how people can get twisted around to rationalizing atrocity.



https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2006.00273.x

A study on this subject. Between 1970 and 2006 they were able to find a total of 90 healthcare professionals who were charged with medical murders. Not all were convicted. 

Modern Life Has Made It Easier for Serial Killers to Thrive

Another good article. About 40% of murders are unsolved. The authors conclude that there are 2100 or so active serial killers in the US at any given time.

So most of us are not out there killing people.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1556-4029.2006.00273.x
> 
> A study on this subject. Between 1970 and 2006 they were able to find a total of 90 healthcare professionals who were charged with medical murders. Not all were convicted.
> 
> ...


Totally.  I actually found that study first, and then went down a rabbit hole of reading about the Angel of Mercy syndrome.  But I was only aware of a literal handful... 4 or 5 cases.  90 is far more than I would have guessed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2020)

Steve said:


> I am, frankly, shocked to learn that serial murder by healthcare professionals is a LOT more common than I had ever imagined.  I am even more shocked to learn that they often see it as humane euthanization.  It's amazing how people can get twisted around to rationalizing atrocity.


There's a clinical name for the pathology of this, though it entirely escapes me at the moment. That such a name is even useful is a bit daunting.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 23, 2020)

Human nature, or sense of right or wrong, does not change with educational or economic level (at least I don't think so - have no statistical evidence)  No surprise that doctors can murder as often an anyone else, maybe more. Doctors, especially surgeons, have a high opinion of themselves as far as skill, control and confidence goes; it goes with the job, and I do not begrudge them that quality - it's part of what makes them effective.  But any skill, like a weapon, can be misused.

Having influence over life and death, high intelligence and great confidence in themselves, however, can lead to hubris and arrogance.  In fact, many serial killers share these same qualities.  They say there is a fine line between genius and insanity. So, doctors are not different from the rest of humanity with our strengths and weaknesses.  We are all just people.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's a clinical name for the pathology of this, though it entirely escapes me at the moment. That such a name is even useful is a bit daunting.


Angel of Mercy or Angel of Death? 

Angel of mercy (criminology) - Wikipedia.

And they have a list:

List of serial killers by number of victims - Wikipedia


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Human nature, or sense of right or wrong, does not change with educational or economic level (at least I don't think so - have no statistical evidence)  No surprise that doctors can murder as often an anyone else, maybe more. Doctors, especially surgeons, have a high opinion of themselves as far as skill, control and confidence goes; it goes with the job, and I do not begrudge them that quality - it's part of what makes them effective.  But any skill, like a weapon, can be misused.
> 
> Having influence over life and death, high intelligence and great confidence in themselves, however, can lead to hubris and arrogance.  In fact, many serial killers share these same qualities.  They say there is a fine line between genius and insanity. So, doctors are not different from the rest of humanity with our strengths and weaknesses.  We are all just people.



Not all psychopaths are serial killers, but I did find this:  
The 10 jobs that attract the most psychopaths

8
	

	
	
		
		

		
			



https://static.independent.co.uk/s3...age/2015/10/13/16/Psychopath_1.jpg?width=1368


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2020)

Steve said:


> Angel of Mercy or Angel of Death?
> 
> Angel of mercy (criminology) - Wikipedia.
> 
> ...


A clinical, psychological term, though I don't know if it was actually something in the DSM, or just a common usage clinical term. I'll browse a bit and see if I can stumble on the one I'm thinking of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 23, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not all psychopaths are serial killers, but I did find this:
> The 10 jobs that attract the most psychopaths
> 
> 8
> ...


It's mostly about lack of empathy, and many of those occupations have situations (and perhaps positions) where a lack of empathy can be a strength, or at least not as much a weakness as it would be in other professions.


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## Steve (Dec 23, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's mostly about lack of empathy, and many of those occupations have situations (and perhaps positions) where a lack of empathy can be a strength, or at least not as much a weakness as it would be in other professions.


my first though was, "Chefs lack empathy?". But then I remembered Gordon Ramsay and the book Kitchen Confidential.


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## john_newman (Dec 24, 2020)

Oh my gosh!! 2020 is very ominous and happened a lot of unexpected things. 
Praying best for 2021.


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's a clinical name for the pathology of this, though it entirely escapes me at the moment. That such a name is even useful is a bit daunting.


Mercy killing?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 24, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> There's a clinical name for the pathology of this, though it entirely escapes me at the moment. That such a name is even useful is a bit daunting.



I don't know of any medical term. In large part because there's no single pathology that drives these killers.
They may think they're sparring patients (or their families) the pain of a prolonged death.
They may do it so they can be the hero who swoops in and revives them (which is probably related to Munchhausen by Proxy).
They may get a thrill out of killing people.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 24, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> A clinical, psychological term, though I don't know if it was actually something in the DSM, or just a common usage clinical term. I'll browse a bit and see if I can stumble on the one I'm thinking of.


Not in the DSM. Or at least not in 5, and IIRC not in IV either. Also nothing that I ever heard referenced by my colleagues outside of angel of death.

There might be a theory that people that do this are all secretly a member of one personality disorder or another, but I wouldn't believe that personally. Wouldn't even know where I'd organize it in the DSM if I were to add it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know of any medical term. In large part because there's no single pathology that drives these killers.
> They may think they're sparring patients (or their families) the pain of a prolonged death.
> They may do it so they can be the hero who swoops in and revives them (which is probably related to Munchhausen by Proxy).
> They may get a thrill out of killing people.


Yeah. I was trying to remember a term specific to the ones who consider it a mercy. I was certain I'd run across a term in some psych journal, but I can't find any reference to it now.

We can also add to your list the ones who do it out of frustration with their patients (more likely among nurses) and those who do it for the sheer feeling of power (more likely among doctors). The latter is pretty close to your third group, though I've seen distinctions made between the thrill killers and the power killers. Not sure I see them as different groups.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 24, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not in the DSM. Or at least not in 5, and IIRC not in IV either. Also nothing that I ever heard referenced by my colleagues outside of angel of death.
> 
> There might be a theory that people that do this are all secretly a member of one personality disorder or another, but I wouldn't believe that personally. Wouldn't even know where I'd organize it in the DSM if I were to add it.


If my memory were more useful here, I'd have a response that would clarify things. Alas...


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## dvcochran (Dec 24, 2020)

Euthanasia? We have to do it occasionally with livestock.


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## Kemposhot (Dec 25, 2020)

Steve said:


> Not all psychopaths are serial killers, but I did find this:
> The 10 jobs that attract the most psychopaths
> 
> 8
> ...



Many of these jobs have particular traits in common.  A sense of public trust, responsibility and directly dealing with people and the public at large.  Although number 10 of civil servants is kind of vague, which professions are they speaking about?


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## Tez3 (Dec 25, 2020)

Kemposhot said:


> Many of these jobs have particular traits in common.  A sense of public trust, responsibility and directly dealing with people and the public at large.  Although number 10 of civil servants is kind of vague, which professions are they speaking about?




Does the US have a Civil Service as we do in the UK?


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## dvcochran (Dec 25, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Does the US have a Civil Service as we do in the UK?


I am not certain since I do not know your structure. 
But this is from a wiki page:
The *United States* federal *civil service* is the civilian workforce (i.e., non-elected and non-military public sector employees) of the *United States* federal government's departments and agencies. The federal *civil service* was established in 1871 (5 U.S.C. § 2101).


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## Steve (Dec 26, 2020)

Tez3 said:


> Does the US have a Civil Service as we do in the UK?


Not sure if it's like the UK, but about 2 million people work for federal agencies.  A third or so (like 700k) work for the department of defense.  But most work for agencies like the FDA, CDC, NOAA, Social Security, etc,.


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## drop bear (Dec 26, 2020)

Kemposhot said:


> Many of these jobs have particular traits in common.  A sense of public trust, responsibility and directly dealing with people and the public at large.  Although number 10 of civil servants is kind of vague, which professions are they speaking about?



Yeah. Sociopaths are basically the same as bureaucrats


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## dvcochran (Dec 27, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Sociopaths are basically the same as bureaucrats


Nail on the head.


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## john_newman (Jan 12, 2021)

Steve said:


> Not all psychopaths are serial killers, but I did find this:
> The 10 jobs that attract the most psychopaths
> 
> 8
> ...




Damn true. I will agree with you.


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## Anarax (Jan 22, 2021)

Rusty B said:


> Admittedly, I'm really shooting the breeze on this one, but I'm curious as to your thoughts.
> 
> I was watching Terminator 2 the other day, and one particular scene stood out to me: the Terminator was taking care of Sarah Connor's wounds - probably doing exactly what a physician would be doing, given the same materials and resources - and she asks him how he knew how to do all that.
> 
> ...



Interesting thread

Personally, I don't think so. Knowing weaknesses and being able to exploit them are two different things. Most people know the basic weaknesses like the groin/eyes, but probably don't know how to set up a strike or close the distance. However, my knowledge of anatomy/physiology and kinesiology has helped me immensely in addition to my martial arts training. It helps me deconstruct a technique and understand how it works.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2021)

Rusty B said:


> Right, in this scenario, the physicians you're sparring with are are using techniques with in the specific martial art.
> 
> So I'm not trying to suggest that a physician can throw a punch any better than someone else.
> 
> ...


That depends on what kind of physician we're talking about. An eye doctor probably would not know about what parts of the body are more fragile than others, except for the eyes, but it doesn't take an eye doctor to know that the eyes are very fragile.


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## Ivan (Mar 4, 2021)

Rusty B said:


> That being said... if a young healthy physician in good shape with zero martial arts training was so inclined... could he or she use their extensive knowledge of the human anatomy to be as equally effective as a trained martial artist?


No. Fighting experience is very different Being able to handle the overwhelming mixture of adrenaline and cortisol takes years of experience for most. Moreover, just because you know where the weak spots of the body are, it doesn't mean you know or can apply techniques to exploit them.


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