# Pak Sao/Lop Sao



## futsaowingchun (Feb 15, 2015)

Two of the most important techniques in one simple drill !!


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## Danny T (Feb 16, 2015)

Hmm..., if he paks and maintains the line when you lop as shown you are crossing the line. All he needs to do is biu, loy jut or taun with a slight turn to cut your lop arm. If he is just over the line or you move his pak to just over the line your lop works well.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 18, 2015)

when I lop his hand his body and structure will be compromised so he wont be able to do any of those things. Of course any technique can be countered there is no perfect techniques.


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## Danny T (Feb 19, 2015)

'If' you are able to lop.
Thing is the moment you cross the line all the opponent need do is to biu or loy jut and you will be unable to lop.
When you cross the line you have given the opponent the position to defeat you. If you are faster or stronger yes you can win. But we don't rely on speed and strength but proper movement and position.
When you cross the line (as shown) and the opponent is on the line you've set yourself up for failure.


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## Transk53 (Feb 19, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> when I lop his hand his body and structure will be compromised so he wont be able to do any of those things. Of course any technique can be countered there is no perfect techniques.



Yeah and maybe that is where the alternative move comes from. I like to call it unorthodox, but from where I am from, is no way near from where you guys come from!


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 19, 2015)

alot has to do with the energy the person is giving you,so if I cant lop him I will simplemove to another technique. This is only a drill not an actual fighting scenario.


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## Transk53 (Feb 20, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> alot has to do with the energy the person is giving you,so if I cant lop him I will simplemove to another technique. This is only a drill not an actual fighting scenario.



Right get you.


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## Danny T (Feb 20, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> alot has to do with the energy the person is giving you,so if I cant lop him I will simple move to another technique.


Absolutely. Or you will attempt to but having trapped yourself it will be difficult.



futsaowingchun said:


> This is only a drill not an actual fighting scenario.


Agreed. However should not the drill be performed in the manner that does not create a bad habit. (like crossing the line vs drawing the opponent across the line allowing you to be on the line or, you angling thereby moving the line?


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## geezer (Feb 20, 2015)

Here's a different approach to Lap Sau. What do you guys think?


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## Danny T (Feb 20, 2015)

Geezer, I don't agree with everything he does but I do agree with the approach. We do a lot of the same and this gives some insight into what I mean when I say; We have forms, drills and applications. Application may not look like the forms or the drills.
Bong sao for instance is a deflection and a shoulder butt as well. Same with the side scraping gum sao in SLT.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 20, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Absolutely. Or you will attempt to but having trapped yourself it will be difficult.
> 
> 
> Agreed. However should not the drill be performed in the manner that does not create a bad habit. (like crossing the line vs drawing the opponent across the line allowing you to be on the line or, you angling thereby moving the line?




It depends,In wing chun doesnt the wooden dummy contain movements that are incorect then the next move corrects it? What may seem wrong to you may not be wrong for me..I will use whatever I can get away with. You have to think outside the box.


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## Danny T (Feb 20, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> It depends,In wing chun doesnt the wooden dummy contain movements that are incorect then the next move corrects it?


Not in the way we train. But 'if' one were to make a mistake there are moves that will put you back in control or opens the line for you to attack. We also have numerous actions that are specifically not executed in the dummy Form where you go to position but no execution of an attack only the position for control.



futsaowingchun said:


> What may seem wrong to you may not be wrong for me..I will use whatever I can get away with. You have to think outside the box.


I agree that your application of the movement/s and position/s may be different. No problem there. 
And that you will use what you can get away with. No problem again
I disagree with your assertion that it is ok to practice breaking the principle and that it is ok. When you do that are you are you still practicing WC? Or, are you practicing something else that is similar.

If a practitioner were practicing in the manner of crossing the line putting themselves in a trapped situation and is unaware or is simply making a mistake but is working to correct that then they are practicing WC. If one were doing so to help their training partner to know and recognize the difference when the opponent crossed the line that again is something different for the practice of the other person. When one purposely practices against the principles simply because one wants and has been able to 'get away' with it knowing it breaks the principles can one still be practicing WC or has what one is practicing now become something else?


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 21, 2015)

Sometimes its hard to gauge MCM's true skill in his WC because most if not all the vids he posts are slow paced beginner type drills. Personally, I'd love to see Fut Sao wing chun in action, in a more dynamic sort of way. 
I guess what I'm saying is we always see him doing videos in what appears to be "teaching mode" to a junior student. From this aspect, its hard to get a good (objective) feel for what he can do. Hope this makes sense(?).
Thanks for posting MCM.


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## geezer (Feb 21, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> ...I'd love to see Fut Sao wing chun in action, in a more dynamic sort of way.
> I guess what I'm saying is we always see him doing videos in what appears to be "teaching mode" to a junior student. From this aspect, its hard to get a good (objective) feel for what he can do.



Judging from MCM's appearance ....that is to say his evident physical "maturity" I'd guess that he is more in the "coaching"  rather than the "competing" stage of life (as am I). So I doubt we will see him posting videos of himself in the cage, etc. That would be just plain nuts. On the other hand, maybe some of his students?

Now make no mistake. I'm not writing off all us geezers. I know a lot of older guys who would be pretty scary if put to the test in a self-defense situation. But none of them fight for sport anymore! 

BTW my Saturday _Eskrima _class members range in age from their late fifties to one who's 83. They just came up with a name for their club: OFS-FMA (OLD FARTS _with _STICKS). We're currently designing the T-Shirts.


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## Mephisto (Feb 21, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> It depends,In wing chun doesnt the wooden dummy contain movements that are incorect then the next move corrects it? What may seem wrong to you may not be wrong for me..I will use whatever I can get away with. You have to think outside the box.


I'm curious how you know what you can get away with and what will work. If you're modifying WC how can you justify that your modifications are good? 


Kwan Sau said:


> Sometimes its hard to gauge MCM's true skill in his WC because most if not all the vids he posts are slow paced beginner type drills. Personally, I'd love to see Fut Sao wing chun in action, in a more dynamic sort of way.
> I guess what I'm saying is we always see him doing videos in what appears to be "teaching mode" to a junior student. From this aspect, its hard to get a good (objective) feel for what he can do. Hope this makes sense(?).
> Thanks for posting MCM.


It's good to see practitioners share video, I always enough it, you open yourself to a lot of criticism, especially if you don't disable video comments. That being said there's an abundance of WC guys doing instructionals, the martial arts community needs to see WC in action. 


geezer said:


> Judging from MCM's appearance ....that is to say his evident physical "maturity" I'd guess that he is more in the "coaching"  rather than the "competing" stage of life (as am I). So I doubt we will see him posting videos of himself in the cage, etc. That would be just plain nuts. On the other hand, maybe some of his students?
> 
> Now make no mistake. I'm not writing off all us geezers. I know a lot of older guys who would be pretty scary if put to the test in a self-defense situation. But none of them fight for sport anymore!
> 
> BTW my Saturday _Eskrima _class members range in age from their late fifties to one who's 83. They just came up with a name for their club: OFS-FMA (OLD FARTS _with _STICKS). We're currently designing the T-Shirts.


I'm just curious if mcm has ever even used his system in real life. Some old guys in martial arts have payed their dues and some only think they have. If you're innovating or improving something you'd better be speaking from personal experience. I'd be very surprised to ever see anything from this guy other than coaching and WC dummy vids.


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> So I doubt we will see him posting videos of himself in the cage, etc. But none of them fight for sport anymore!



I guess I shouldn't be surprised that folks automatically assume "cage" and "sport" these days. But no, what I meant was even something simpler...for example: the guy in his pak sao video...I'd like to see MCM say to him "ok, you attack me however you want, with force / speed / aggression etc...and I'll use my MCM WC to deal with it. "


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## Kwan Sau (Feb 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> (OLD FARTS _with _STICKS).



Now that's funny!!! hahaha   love it!


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 22, 2015)

Danny T said:


> I disagree with your assertion that it is ok to practice breaking the principle and that it is ok. When you do that are you are you still practicing WC? Or, are you practicing something else that is similar.


i

When learn something its up to you if you want to break it..I can chose to break it if I chose to. Is it WC? I'm a WC fighter that is what I know butI'm not bound to it. How can I express yourself freely if you are bound to rules.rules made up by someone else.
Rules are for bigginers,a guide line to follow to learn,but you should not be a slave to it...IMO


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 22, 2015)

Kwan Sau said:


> Sometimes its hard to gauge MCM's true skill in his WC because most if not all the vids he posts are slow paced beginner type drills. Personally, I'd love to see Fut Sao wing chun in action, in a more dynamic sort of way.
> I guess what I'm saying is we always see him doing videos in what appears to be "teaching mode" to a junior student. From this aspect, its hard to get a good (objective) feel for what he can do. Hope this makes sense(?).
> Thanks for posting MCM.




I'm 51 yrs old now so I'm more into the teaching mode,but I love to mix it up with other people.I'm in NYC if you like to meet up we can do some training...


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 22, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'm curious how you know what you can get away with and what will work. If you're modifying WC how can you justify that your modifications are good?



simple, experience.I only practice what works for me.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 22, 2015)

geezer said:


> Judging from MCM's appearance ....that is to say his evident physical "maturity" I'd guess that he is more in the "coaching"  rather than the "competing" stage of life (as am I). So I doubt we will see him posting videos of himself in the cage, etc. That would be just plain nuts. On the other hand, maybe some of his students?
> 
> Now make no mistake. I'm not writing off all us geezers. I know a lot of older guys who would be pretty scary if put to the test in a self-defense situation. But none of them fight for sport anymore!
> 
> BTW my Saturday _Eskrima _class members range in age from their late fifties to one who's 83. They just came up with a name for their club: OFS-FMA (OLD FARTS _with _STICKS). We're currently designing the T-Shirts.



I have a grand student that completes.He does very well with only a few years training..I will see if I can get some video footage


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## Danny T (Feb 22, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> i
> 
> When learn something its up to you if you want to break it..I can chose to break it if I chose to. Is it WC? I'm a WC fighter that is what I know butI'm not bound to it. How can I express yourself freely if you are bound to rules.rules made up by someone else.
> Rules are for bigginers,a guide line to follow to learn,but you should not be a slave to it...IMO


Agree with not being a slave to any methodology, I continue to learn and practice several other arts. I also blend them using whatever is best for me at any one moment time but in doing so I don't espouse to be doing wing chun or any other particular method.
For what it is worth I used to do the same with my lop sao and got away with it. Worked very well for me right up until I was versed another who simply shut me down and explain how and why I was giving him the trap.
So cool, it works for you and you are getting away with it. Maybe you will never encounter someone who knows how easily you have trapped yourself. Use the information or disregard it 
All the best to you in your endeavor.


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## Mephisto (Feb 22, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have a grand student that completes.He does very well with only a few years training..I will see if I can get some video footage


Honestly I like futsao! He fires back at our questions with confidence, and seems willing to meet up to train. But I'll be surprised to see any video of his student in action.


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## Danny T (Feb 23, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have a grand student that completes.He does very well with only a few years training..I will see if I can get some video footage


A "grand student" [sic].
A student of yours that is large, that is very good, or are you using this to refer to a student of a student (like grandchild)?


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## yak sao (Feb 23, 2015)

If he's a student of a student who is large and very good, does that make him a grand, grand, grand student?


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## geezer (Feb 23, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Honestly I like futsao! He fires back at our questions with confidence, and seems willing to meet up to train. But I'll be surprised to see any video of his student in action.


 
Heck _good_ videos of anybody or their students are hard to come by. But it's easy for me to complain since I don't make videos. Too much bother. And probably a good thing too, since I did find something with me in it on youtube and I can't believe what an idiot I was.


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## futsaowingchun (Feb 23, 2015)

Danny T said:


> A "grand student" [sic].
> A student of yours that is large, that is very good, or are you using this to refer to a student of a student (like grandchild)?


A student of  a student.


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## Danny T (Feb 24, 2015)

futsaowingchun said:


> A student of  a student.


Ok. 
I'd never heard these two words used together, 'grand student'. Also was unable to find a definition or a use of them like this in the different dictionaries I use. 
Thanks for your definition.


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