# Spontaneity



## Zoran (May 14, 2002)

How many people here practice there self-defense with spontaneity. Example; you have your training partner in front of you and he/she attacks you with any strike, kick, or so on without you knowing what is to come. The attack comes at you at full speed, with control of course. From there you can have the attacker come at you with any 1-2 combo as you get more comfortable (more advanced, brown and up).

Reason why I ask is sometimes we can get wrapped up in exploring the various SD techs, forms, and exploring the tools of Kenpo, that we may neglect working on our ability to react to less than ideal situations. Why? Well it's not always fun to work these drills. Especially when what you planned to do goes south for the winter.

For those that do, what other sort of drills do you use?


----------



## Yari (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *How many people here practice there self-defense with spontaneity. Example; you have your training partner in front of you and he/she attacks you with any strike, kick, or so on without you knowing what is to come. The attack comes at you at full speed, with control of course. From there you can have the attacker come at you with any 1-2 combo as you get more comfortable (more advanced, brown and up).
> 
> ...



I don't practice Kenpo, but to jujitsu, and Aikido. I've done this, and still do. It's great pratice, and even harder if there is multiple attackers. Multiple attackers have to them take abit consideration, like not hitting a person in back of the head. But this gives a good pratice ...


/Yari


----------



## AvPKenpo (May 14, 2002)

Spontaneity is one the FUNNEST ways to practice kenpo.  There is nothing like somebody throwing any number of combinations and your body reacts to that and does combinations of techniques that you never thought of putting together.  It is an excellent way to practice your self-defense in any art.

Michael


----------



## KoshoBob (May 14, 2002)

Yep, we have a bunch of fun drills. I stand behind the defender and 3 or 4 attackers face us. I point to a random attacker and they charge the defender with any technique they want. Another variation is the attackers have shields so the defender can counter with more force.


----------



## RCastillo (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *How many people here practice there self-defense with spontaneity. Example; you have your training partner in front of you and he/she attacks you with any strike, kick, or so on without you knowing what is to come. The attack comes at you at full speed, with control of course. From there you can have the attacker come at you with any 1-2 combo as you get more comfortable (more advanced, brown and up).
> 
> ...




This is something one can never get enough of!:asian:


----------



## Roland (May 14, 2002)

I find some instructors burn their students out by moving into this way too soon.

Then, of course, there are the schools that never reach this level!

Where & when would you say your students should really work this in? I mean, I feel like they should have a strong base to work from first, and that like eveything else, this should be done in a progressive way.
That way everyone has a chance to learn and explore, not just those with natural ability.


----------



## tonbo (May 14, 2002)

We use a variation on our "circle drills" concept.

When we practice with random responses (spontaneity drills), we usually have a group of three or four people.  One person is "it", and the other two or three form a half circle or a "wedge" around the person who is "it".  Then, the "attackers" throw a punch (or a combo, if advanced) and the person who is "it" defends.

This is worked at various speeds and difficulties, depending on the rank of the class.

If you *really* want to mess it up a bit more, let everyone move around a bit, so it becomes kind of a slow-motion sparring.  That is fun, too.....but requires a bit more control.

Peace--


----------



## tshadowchaser (May 14, 2002)

I am not theaching kenpo but we do use a version of the "circle drill" and once in a while I will tell the students that durring the next wee someone differant each night will be free to attack anyone at any time. Sometimes the attacker only has till a certian time to attack after that someone else has the option. Keps people on their toes and stops them from becomeing overly jumpy at the same time.
Shadow:asian:


----------



## Zoran (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *I find some instructors burn their students out by moving into this way too soon.*



I agree up to a point. I think it's not that they move them in to soon, more of moving them to fast. I feel that at intermediate level would be a good time to start the process, slowly. This will prepare them for the more advanced drills. 



> *Then, of course, there are the schools that never reach this level!*



We get quite a few other martial artists at our school. If you are from a sport or mcdojo school, I can understand having problems with self-defense. Now somtimes we get a Kenpoist, black belt, come to our school. I've found some that have a hard time with self-defense in a less that ideal situation. That can burn me up.:angry:



> *I feel like they should have a strong base to work from first, and that like eveything else, this should be done in a progressive way. *



Agreed.


----------



## Roland (May 14, 2002)

He was saying that he has the students form a circle, and they start to attack the person in the middle, one at a time, and then it gets faster and faster, until the one in the middle has had enough. They do this regardless of rank or experience, and only about once a month. This is their version of self-defense training. What some of you are calling circle drils.
 This is what I call too little too late. Too much for beginners, too little for advanced students.
 I told him about starting my Beginners with basic line drills, every class, and some of the progession that goes on from there. 
 And he asked for my permission to steal the idea.
From a supposed Kenpo school instructor.

Sheeeeeesh!
:soapbox:


----------



## Yari (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Roland _
> 
> *I find some instructors burn their students out by moving into this way too soon.
> 
> ...




I think they can start from day one, just don'thave high expectations.  And that accounts both for teacher and Tori.
The "spontanious" attack has to fit the level of the pupil, no matter what. 

The question behind spontainious, is reading the oppenent. The more you learn, it becomes easier to read and react. The second part is conditioning your body to react "correctly". Both these things grow and get better by time. Therefor Uke has to be "better" than tori, or this has no help at all. In other words, on a new fress pupil, there's no problem for him/her to experience this and get something good out of it. But it should be a major part of your training, or it'll ruin your technique.


/Yari


----------



## Seig (May 15, 2002)

Kind of an oxymoron.  Getting people to be spontaneous in their actions seems to be a goal of all serios self-defense instructors.  A certain amount of that seems to come through when students are at lower ranks and confronted, unexpectedly.  I have seen more of them loose their composure when against an expected attacker.  I also do the circle drills where I throw people at the person in the center randomly (sometimes this is literal), but to be honest, I do this for my own amusement.  After the drill is over, I use it as an opportunity.  I have each "monkey" critque their own actions.  I then have them develop some sort of "plan", then I drop it for a week or tow and then do it again.  They often make the same mistakes.  The point of it is this, learn from your mistakes in a safe environment.  Occassionally, I put myself in the middle.  What I do is then demonstrate something so brutal, that had it been an actual street attack, the first "attacker" would not be getting back up without the aid of EMS.  Please notice I said "brutal", not complex.  As a very wise man recently pointed out to me, our more advanced techniques seem to be a reworking of the beginner techniques ( I paraphrased and simplified, don't hurt me).  I have begun re-examining the techniques, in a whole new light.  (You know who you are, and thank you).  One of the pitfalls that I see quite a few intermediate and advanced sttudents fall into is this, and some of you may have heard this, "Well, I wouldn't do this, I would do....".  How many of you have been somewhere and seen an unsavory character (not unlike myself) and said, "if that (insert expletive here) comes up to me, I'm going to..."  My approach is to keep working the Key Techniques, until they become spontaneous.  Once you have done that, you can plan the rest of what you are going to do.
Just my approach.

PS.  The wiseman, I referred to.  I thoroughly enjoyed our conversation, made me feel like a white belt all over again!  Thank you, sir!


----------



## tonbo (May 15, 2002)

One thing we work on with our lower belt students is the "circle shield" drill.  Similar to the technique circle, we put a student in the center of a circle of other students, all of whom have either a kick shield or a blocker of some type.  We then give the student in the center 30 seconds to hit all of the shields/blockers.  They can use any strikes/kicks/combos up to their level, and don't have to follow any pattern.  The people holding the bags/shields/blockers can angle them or move them prior to and following their being hit, but not during.  This drill allows people to start to see how they work with randomness, and also how to do things "outside the structure", while still using the tools.

You can also do this against a stationary bag (heavy bag).  Give the student 30 seconds to just wail on the bag with whatever tools they have.  The only rule in this one is that they cannot stop for those 30 seconds.  That is a fun one, too.

Finally, you can move this up to advanced students.  Give them a partner and have them do a modified 3-count sparring:  Have one attack with a kick or strike, and the partner react bodily to how this would impact them (doubling over after being kicked to the gut, etc.).  The first "attacker" does three strikes, with the partner reacting to each "strike".  After the first person has done three strikes, then the roles switch.  However, the former "defender" (now the attacker) has to start  his/her attack from the position that they were in after the third strike.

That is an eye opening drill, sometimes.  You can wind up in some really interesting situations.....

You can also have the partners "suit up" and do the "wail on each other in turns for 30 seconds" drill--one partner attacks, the other just defends, then they switch.  Main rule:  No excessive contact--this is a DRILL, not a beating session!!

Whoops.  Rambled again.  Sorry.......

Peace--


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 21, 2002)

But he couldn't remember the techniques...

:rofl:


----------



## RCastillo (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *But he couldn't remember the techniques...
> 
> :rofl: *



Liar, I am the King of Tracy Kenpo! I know all, see all!:samurai:


----------



## Seig (May 22, 2002)

Just doesn't always remember it all.....:rofl:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

** giggle **


----------



## Sandor (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *How many people here practice there self-defense with spontaneity. Example; you have your training partner in front of you and he/she attacks you with any strike, kick, or so on without you knowing what is to come. The attack comes at you at full speed, with control of course. From there you can have the attacker come at you with any 1-2 combo as you get more comfortable (more advanced, brown and up).
> 
> ...




Ahhh.. Zoran, always thinking outside of the 'box'. Gotta love that. Here is an idea I got from Ed Parker Jr a few years ago; Take a class full of people outside into the parking lot and have them do forms and selfdefense techs in all sorts of places; between cars, next to walls, around columns, in the dirt, on the grass, standing on parking bumpers, in an elevator etc. Let me know what happens 

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 22, 2002)

you have, 

Motion........
Emotion.......
and
COMMOTION!!

:bomb:


----------



## Zoran (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *
> Here is an idea I got from Ed Parker Jr a few years ago; Take a class full of people outside into the parking lot and have them do forms and selfdefense techs in all sorts of places; between cars, next to walls, around columns, in the dirt, on the grass, standing on parking bumpers, in an elevator etc. Let me know what happens
> ...



Besides getting arrested? 

Seriously though, using the outdoors on occasion is a great way to help with the evironment factor. Also good to make sure you are wearing street clothes and shoes during these sessions.


----------



## Sandor (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Actually, nekkid is better but tends to get the cops attention faster so I guess the street clothes idea is smarter


----------



## Zoran (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sandor _
> 
> *
> Actually, nekkid is better but tends to get the cops attention faster so I guess the street clothes idea is smarter *



Are you kidding? I've been were you live. Everbody is pretty much naked there anyway.:shrug:


----------



## Sandor (May 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *
> 
> Are you kidding? I've been were you live. Everbody is pretty much naked there anyway.:shrug: *




Ok, if you're nekkid on the beach they won't harass you but back on the mainland they tend to frown on the public nudity thing. I try to avoid that part of the geography and stick to the beach where its all positive and healthy 

My theory is that 'Life is Good' when you can walk a few blocks in the morning to workout and see neekid folks and supermodels everywhere. I have shared this theory with a few of the guys when they came into town to teach seminars and most have wholeheartedly agreed. Though I gotta say it wasn't easy getting Wheeler to leave.

Peace,
Sandor


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 23, 2002)

I better get an invite soon.......!!


----------



## tonbo (May 23, 2002)

Sandor, how about holding a seminar where you are?  We could do practice on the beach, and work on focus!!  

Not to mention that some of us might get a good ab workout by trying to suck our guts in while doing techniques and forms....and still trying to breathe in the process......:rofl: 

Peace--


----------



## Michael Billings (May 23, 2002)

Oh yeah, wait, let me get my mind back here, ok, I'm back now.

Dave Thompson does something called rhythm sparring.  You know how a couple of Kenpo, way up there Black Belt like to "play" sometimes to warm up.  This is a slowed down, no gear kind of sparring using all available weapons.  If they pick on me, I make sure and "react" appropriately, as do they.  If you do a 3 count rhythm, as Tonbo noted above, they have an opportunity to start thinking about combinations.  

The higher you go number-wise, 5 or 6 count rhythem sparring, the more sophisticated the responses.  Defender is allowed to parry or block the 1st strike in the series is another added incentive.  When you watch a couple of experienced Kenpo Black Belts doing this sparring, remember they are taking turns with attacker/defender, then you get 7 or 8 count combos that are usually Kenpo techniques.  Then throw in another Black Belt, ok, so now you either fight the sparring fight, or, since you have the time, why not pattern in actual 2-man attack techniques.

This drill is good for all levels because at 3 count, you focus the beginner on target acquisition and beginning combinations.  From there on you just add levels of sophistication.  It is a good transition to putting them in the middle of a circle and having people wail on them when they have no skills.

Just an idea that probably most teachers use already.  We just formalized it a little and adopted it in the UKS.

-Michael


----------



## Sandor (May 23, 2002)

Freaky thing... I replied to this and it never appeared, second post this has happened with today.

I just held an event called 'Beach Bash' where we have a bunch of seminars on the beach. The instructors for this years event where Martin Wheeler, Al Mc Luckie and Sean Kelley. This was the 7th event and the first one that had to be held at the school instead of the beach due to weather. With us being in a 3 1/2 year long drought the rain was a welcome site and we had a great time anyway.

Check the CKF site for news on these events and start planning now to attend next years bash. Lots of fun 

Peace,
Sandor

ps. the invite to come and train is always open to anyone. Just drop me a line if you are going to be in town


----------



## donald (May 23, 2002)

I used to do this type of training with the orange belt+ group classes in days gone by. Even with the kids classes every now, and then. One or more lines, depending on the class size. The first person in line would turn around, and face the others, and then it was on. I would usually suggest an attack, and after a time or two through. I would just say go. It would last until the defender failed, or in the event of a large class after 2 attacks. When questioned about this practice. I asked them to consider a firecracker. After the fuse is completed, and there is ignition the firecracker goes BOOM, not bbbbbboooommmmm. In that regard that is how we should respond in a defensive situation BOOM!!!

Respectfully,
 :asian:


----------



## Chiduce (May 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Zoran _
> 
> *How many people here practice there self-defense with spontaneity. Example; you have your training partner in front of you and he/she attacks you with any strike, kick, or so on without you knowing what is to come. The attack comes at you at full speed, with control of course. From there you can have the attacker come at you with any 1-2 combo as you get more comfortable (more advanced, brown and up).
> 
> ...


 Actually, he is thinking inside the box also. Yes, we randori and use ashi-sabaki/(square foot method) among other things with our kenpo system. The sabakiing  is very good for experiencing controlling manipulations, wrist and joint locking, throwing, dislocations, and strike-throwing motion etc.  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Nightingale (May 24, 2002)

we start doing spontaneous stuff around blue belt. That way, the student has some techniques that they've trained with long enough for the motions to become instinct.  Doing this stuff with a white, orange, or purple belt doesn't always do a whole lot of good, because too often they need to stop to think because they haven't done the motions often enough yet.  As a brown belt, if someone grabs my hair from the front, my reaction is clutching feathers first, think later. a white belt's reaction is "....what do I do...?...I learned something for this....oh yeah...clutching feathers..."  and if you grabbed them with the right hand instead of the left, they get really confused.  a green, brown, or black, would either do clutching feathers on the other side, or something else entirely. a white belt goes "I don't know what to do." and just gets confused and frustrated.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 26, 2002)

that control would be a problem at that level still...... as well as not having a strong enough base established yet..... but it still is a good "seed casting" idea to start thinking about spontaneity!

:asian:


----------



## Nightingale (May 27, 2002)

sigh...
control is definitely a problem at the white belt level.  My instructor got his knee kicked out by a white belt a few days ago. he's limping around the studio...

I hate sparring white belts. They kick to the legs, try to do illegal sweeps, grab you, and all that stuff. Its not because they don't know the rules, its because they see a punch coming at them and freak.  My instructor used to not let people spar til purple belt, unless he was really confident in them, but that changed for some reason...dunno why.  

When I was a blue belt, I came home from sparring class one day, took off my uniform top (I had a tank top underneath), and went to the fridge for some gatorade...  my mom saw all the bruises and flipped out.  She asked if I'd been fighting black belts... I said no... four white belts... amusing thing...none of the bruises were in a legal target area.  I had bruises up my legs, along my arms, and all over my back....silly white belts.

:shrug: 

what do you all think about white belt sparring?


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 27, 2002)

One of my girls cracked her pubic bone from a heel hook to the groin.....

OUCH
very painful....


----------



## Seig (May 27, 2002)

Some of my students think I am sick and twisted.  Whenever i get a new student, I usually start them in a sparring class.  As I have told all of my students and at least a million times, 95% of the injuries I have sustained over the years have been from white belts, for most of the reason posted here.  I have been to schools where you had to be an intermediate belt to spar.  I disagree with this.  I feel that the mystique and fear of sparring should be dealt with immediately.  It also allows the upper belts to really defend themselves in a controlled environment.  I am usually the first person a new person spars with.


----------



## Nightingale (May 27, 2002)

:soapbox: 

Respectfully, Seig, I must disagree.  However, I'm not a black belt, but I have taught a lot of classes.

if you wanna spar white belts, go for it... but personally, I don't want to put myself at risk for injury doing something that trivial, mainly because I can't afford to be injured and miss work, because I don't get sick pay, and if I'm not completely physically mobile, I can't do my job. 

I think instructors are not only responsible for teaching martial arts, they're responsible for the safety of the students in their studio, and putting some (not all...some white belts have surprising control) white belts in a sparring class is simply a safety hazard.

I know firsthand that kenpo works in the street, and I don't need a sparring match to tell me that. Sparring is not street fighting. There are very specific rules for what you can and can't do, and the rules are there so nobody gets hurt.  Even though the white belts know the rules, when they're put in a sparring situation, they don't follow the rules, and that's where people get hurt.


----------



## Robbo (May 27, 2002)

On the other hand, I think a controlled advanced student is what a begginer SHOULD be matched against. 

Old chinese proverb - If two white belts fight, one will certainly be mortally wounded.....and the other will be dead  

Seriously, if proper rules are stressed and you don't just go for it in the first match I don't see why the student wouldn't benefit w/o anybody getting hurt. You just do a 'light' feeling out match and get them used to sparring. Don't put them in a situation where they feel they have to fight for their lives against this guy with black belt that's going to kick their a**** 6 ways to sunday.
I don't suscribe to the throw them in and see if they can swim theory, I rather teach them to swim first.

Now if they really want to fight for points or whatever then by all means match them against somebody of their skill level and watch the sparks fly. This should only be done after they have learned proper etiquite and control though. It would show irresponsible behaviour on the instructor's part to just dump somebody into a full out 'sparring match' without any experiance.

Thanks,
Rob


----------



## Nightingale (May 27, 2002)

I agree...teach them to swim first.  however, it seems to me that by the time they really learn to swim, they're orange belts.


----------



## Chiduce (May 27, 2002)

I use a form of ashi sabaki for my white belts to have a beginning freestyle sparring experience. The sabaki introduces them to joint locking, determining possible striking areas to concentrate on,  expose the respective angles of possible breaking, and to introduce their finishing throws. This method seems to work well with the lower belts because light controlled contact is used first. Randori, is then added with the sabaki method so that they can use a little more force with each other. This gives more of a sense of finding out their strengths and weaknesses in striking, throwing, blocking, contolling the attacker once contact is made, using come alongs, kicking and strike-throwing. As their time in the school progresses, they are then reminded to use more self control as they randori and sabaki.  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Nightingale (May 27, 2002)

um...I hate to plead ingnorance...but I have no idea what you just said.  It sounded japanese, but I don't know what it meant. could you explain?


----------



## Klondike93 (May 27, 2002)

I have to agree with the others on this. Start them sparring as soon as possible to help eliminate the fear of sparring. It's frustrating for all involved but it should be done.


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *um...I hate to plead ingnorance...but I have no idea what you just said.  It sounded japanese, but I don't know what it meant. could you explain? *



I have no idea either...  I  wouldn't worry about it however.... Some like to use terminology that no one else understands to seem intelligent.  Maybe I should go over to a Japanese site and start talking about our self defense techniques or freestyle techniques by coding.........:rofl: 

Seems that if they want to be conversational they would be courteous enough to speak the same language as everybody else.

But that's my opinion ........ I could Be wrong....

:asian:


----------



## Klondike93 (May 28, 2002)

I thought "Sabaki" was a tournament held here in Denver where contestants beat the tar of each other without pads.

B1a or B1b?


:asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 28, 2002)

rktskb5aPbkhk

:asian:


----------



## Turner (May 28, 2002)

Sabaki refers to positioning oneself to the side and to the back of your opponent (Obscure zones) where you are better able to throw him off balance and counterattack.

Ashi is 'leg' in Japanese.

Ashi Sabaki is basically nothing more than 'footwork'

it is related to Tai Sabaki which is 'Body Movement'

Randori is freestyle sparring where everything is allowed.. primarily a term used by Japanese 'soft styles' like Aikido, Judo, and Jujitsu. I believe the 'Hard Style' equivilent is the term Jiyu Kumite


----------



## Seig (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *:soapbox:
> 
> ...


Nightingale,
I understand your point.  I'm not throwing them to the sharks.  They spar me first, to get them past the mystique and fear of sparring.  They spar my senior students next, so that they realise that no one is there to hurt them.  I put them with people that can handle themselves and avoid the common pitfalls of dealing with an untrained fighter.  It's worked very well for me.  :asian:


----------



## Nightingale (May 28, 2002)

okay, sieg...that makes more sense! I get it now!


----------



## Chiduce (May 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *um...I hate to plead ingnorance...but I have no idea what you just said.  It sounded japanese, but I don't know what it meant. could you explain? *


 Ashi-Sabaki is just combat footwork. Changing body positioning in reference to the attacker's striking positioning. We use the square foot method of stepping and body positioning to yield and accept an on-rushing attack or right or left lead punch to unbalance the attacker by using his/her yang force against them. This is done by trapping/ grappling the lead punching arm, locking the elbow or wrist joint and pivoting on the right or left foot while pulling the attacker in his/her forward circular direction.  This increases their motion forward. Then as they are moving  forward in this direction, you adjust your trapping hand reverse the sabaki motion and pivot in the opposite direction. This will tear at the shoulder muscles and dislocate the arm at the shoulder.  A forceful reverse pivoting motion can seriously injure the attacker, especially if he/she tries to resist the reverse sabaki motion!  All in-betweens explore counter-striking and breaks while the sabaki motion is in progress. By the way. I have the creator of the sabaki challenge's training manual (The Sabaki Method)! It is very good text. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


----------



## Nightingale (May 28, 2002)

ah. that makes more sense!

 

we need a lightbulb smilie.


----------



## Goldendragon7 (May 31, 2002)

The Gaseous state of Kenpo.....

:asian:


----------



## Seig (May 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *The Gaseous state of Kenpo.....
> 
> :asian: *


Yup, ever expanding..........stay upwind!


----------



## C.E.Jackson (May 31, 2002)

Everybody has to start sparring sometime. I require my students to be a yellow belt before starting sparring classes so they have some basics down and have had some time to get "oriented" to the concept of control. Even then I get beat up worse be novices that any Black Belt I've ever faced (except perhaps Jim Harrison.) :cuss: He always kicked my butt!! LOL



> _Originally posted by Robbo _
> 
> *On the other hand, I think a controlled advanced student is what a begginer SHOULD be matched against.
> 
> ...


----------

