# Homosexuality and training



## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2006)

In another post a member mention about being gay and if the training is any difference, well I have been training a gay guy for over a year and until today I had no ideal he was. Does this change our regular workout no, he is a tremendous addition to our school and is loved by all, he puts more time in training and has earned respect from me over the last year, weather or not he is or is not he has become a fine individual and a valiant student. He helps with the under belts and give so much back to the school that I could never return. I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground and I personally hope he stays for a long time.
Terry


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## Grenadier (Jun 1, 2006)

While I frown upon homosexuality, as long as someone doesn't let it interfere with dojo operations, then it's no concern of mine what someone does outside of the dojo.  As long as the said individual is there for the training, then they're no different than any other student.  

It's simple common sense; you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself, and don't go boldly announcing them to create a distraction.  If the said individual tried to disrupt class by announcing such a thing, then I would simply tell him that it has absolutely no place in the dojo, since everyone is here to train, and nothing more.  

If the said individual starts harassing other dojo members of the same sex, then it's the same thing as if someone tried to use the dojo as a dating scene with a member of the opposite sex: it has no place in the dojo, and they'd better keep it out.  Failure to keep such things out means that they shouldn't be in there.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself,



I dunno, maybe it shouldn't be controversial?  Not terribly long ago, and in some cultures still a lot of things we don't blink a eye at are controversial.  

"Women Workin?!?!  How dare they!"

Nothing to be ashamed of, it's just who some people are.  And they shouldn't feel the need to hide it.


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## Cirdan (Jun 1, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground


 
Exactly! :asian:


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## shesulsa (Jun 1, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> While I frown upon homosexuality, as long as someone doesn't let it interfere with dojo operations, then it's no concern of mine what someone does outside of the dojo.



May I ask how just being a homosexuality interferes with dojo operations, in your opinion?



			
				Grenadier said:
			
		

> It's simple common sense; you keep controversial items about yourself to yourself, and don't go boldly announcing them to create a distraction.  If the said individual tried to disrupt class by announcing such a thing, then I would simply tell him that it has absolutely no place in the dojo, since everyone is here to train, and nothing more.



What other subjects do you think are "controversial" such that they might disrupt a class?



			
				Grenadier said:
			
		

> If the said individual starts harassing other dojo members of the same sex, then it's the same thing as if someone tried to use the dojo as a dating scene with a member of the opposite sex: it has no place in the dojo, and they'd better keep it out.  Failure to keep such things out means that they shouldn't be in there.



Please define what constitutes harrassment in your dojo.  I know that law states it is how the offending statement and/or action is perceived by the recipient which defines harassment, however some people feel harrassed just being in the presence of an outed homosexual.  This cannot be blamed on the homosexual in my opinion.


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## Brother John (Jun 1, 2006)

"Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should _never_ be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.

period



Your Brother
John


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> "Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should _never_ be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.
> 
> period
> 
> ...


 
:asian: 

No matter what your opinion regarding the morality of this issue, this is an important point.

This sort of thing, "should" be a non-issue.


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## Grenadier (Jun 1, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> May I ask how just being a homosexuality interferes with dojo operations, in your opinion?


 
If someone starts discussing about his dating life in the dojo, then it does become a problem, regardless of orientation.  People are there to train, not to socialize about other issues. 



			
				shesulsa said:
			
		

> What other subjects do you think are "controversial" such that they might disrupt a class?


 
Basically anything that does not pertain to the dojo and the martial arts.  If someone tries to use the dojo to push religion, politics, unrelated sciences, etc., while they are in the dojo, they shouldn't do it.  They should at least have the courtesy to leave such discussions at the door, and wait until after leaving the dojo to do such things.  

I don't care if someone is a respected reverend for a good church.  If he trains at a dojo, he should not try to preach there.  



			
				sheslusa said:
			
		

> Please define what constitutes harrassment in your dojo. I know that law states it is how the offending statement and/or action is perceived by the recipient which defines harassment, however some people feel harrassed just being in the presence of an outed homosexual. This cannot be blamed on the homosexual in my opinion.


 
This has nothing to do with one's sexual preference.  Discussion of such things in a dojo should not take place, and if someone has to say "no" to a suitor (regardless of gender) on a repeated basis, then that's certainly harassment.  If someone says "absolutely not, and don't ever bother me again" and the individual tries to propose again, then it is harassment.  

Homosexuals should not be given any more leeway than heterosexuals, and vice versa.  

I don't care what their preferences are; it's a dojo, not a single's bar.  

Now, if someone feels harassed merely in the presence of a suspected or known homosexual, then I'll simply say this: "Get over it."  There are more important things to worry about (such as training), than who is gay and who isn't in a dojo.  




			
				Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I dunno, maybe it shouldn't be controversial? Not terribly long ago, and in some cultures still a lot of things we don't blink a eye at are controversial.


 
Someone's dating and / or sex life will always be a controversial topic, regardless of orientation, simply because it has no place in the dojo.  People are there to train, not to socialize.  

I have always maintained the position, that it's none of my concern what people do outside of the dojo, as long as they keep it outside of the dojo, and don't bring their baggage into it.  Even though I may not agree with what they do, they have their God-given free will to decide what to do with their lives.


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## bushi jon (Jun 1, 2006)

i do not care if they are gay as long as they arnt hittn on me or my students. second worse *** whooping i have ever taken has been by a gay guy at a match. third nothing should be talked about during my class time but self def or martial arts stuff. does it happen yes do i like it heck i start it some days.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 1, 2006)

I don't care if a guy shows up in heels and a dress.  When he comes out of the locker room with a gi on, he better be ready to sweat and kick some ***!


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## matt.m (Jun 1, 2006)

You know the only two things that are important in class are the following:
Is the person considerate to the other trainer(s)/trainee(s)
Are they ready to / do they work hard

That is it period.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> "Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should _never_ be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.
> 
> period



Yup, and neither should gender. Sadly a read through the womens section here shows that just because something shouldn't be an issue, that doesn't mean it never is...


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## Stan (Jun 1, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> If someone starts discussing about his dating life in the dojo, then it does become a problem, regardless of orientation. People are there to train, not to socialize about other issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Here we go again with the slanderous and oft-repeated myth of the sex-crazed gay "conversion" agenda.  No, of course a person going on about the joys of homosexuality, sexually harassing or coming on to other students would be ABSOLUTELY UNACCEPTABLE.  The problem is assuming that a gay person is more likely to do this than a straight person.  Just like with any marginalized group, there probably are a very small number of homosexuals who pursue a misguided, radical "gay agenda".  However, most do not, and simply want to go about their daily business, neither imposing on anyone else, nor hiding or lying about who they are.

When it is said that discussions about personal life have NO PLACE in the dojo, does that mean that students never stand around after class and mention, "My wife and I are going on a road trip this weekend,"  or "I have to get home.  My girlfriend hasn't been feeling well"?  I assume that people who share a dojo would be friendly with each other.  While of course no one should be allowed to sexually harrass or promote a political agenda, to say that a homosexual student has to OMIT large portions of his or her personal life, or worse yet, LIE, and claim to be straight, when such casual personal conversations happen, is by all means a discriminatory double standard.

How would you feel having to constantly refer to your spouse or significant other as "roomate" or "friend", and then being accused of pushing an agenda if you slipped up and mentioned the person who was so important in your life?


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 1, 2006)

And besides, who cares if he's gay. Who your turned on to shouldn't matter. Neither should sex, race, creed, or anything else. The only things that show the beleifs of your heart are your actions. And those are the only things people should be judged by. Everything else is irrelevant.

Good training,
John


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## MartialIntent (Jun 1, 2006)

Grenadier said:
			
		

> Someone's dating and / or sex life will always be a controversial topic, regardless of orientation, simply because it has no place in the dojo. People are there to train, not to socialize.


Respectfully, is that _really_ your view or are you using that point to leverage the notion of being unbiased? I mean, I understand what you're saying, honestly I do, but all I can think is that your gaff sounds rather authoritarian. Surely it's not really like this in your practice hall, is it? ... "You're here to train and not talk or laugh, or mention sports, movies, politics, religion..." etc. I don't think I could train for long under those conditions. For me training is about having a laugh, cracking a joke and communicating and that doesn't preclude a high workrate and disciplined effort, it's just the striking of a balance. Personally I get enough of the Pol Pot attitude at work.

Just my opinion.

Respects!


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## chinto01 (Jun 1, 2006)

Race, creed, color, or sexual orientation should not be a concern when training someone, or training with someone. As long as they have a good heart, are willing to learn or teach, and are serious then what is the problem? 
If we begin to discriminate against one group that will turn to another, then another, then another, and pretty soon we will all be working out with nobody but ourselves. As martial artists we claim to follow the code of bushido. That code basically states that we need to hold ourselves to higher standards than most of society. We need to set the example for people to follow. If we begin to discriminate groups of people we will never further our arts or ourselves.

In the spirit of BUSHIDO!

Rob


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> Race, creed, color, or sexual orientation should not be a concern when training someone,



So... can I keep my polict about not training short green men with lumpy heads and giant floppy ears?


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 1, 2006)

Back at college I trained BJJ with a gay guy. His lifestyle was never an issue, and BJJ is the most sexual martial art I have ever seen. He never hit on anyone, mentioned he was gay, dry humped me (more then the usual grinding involved) or anything akward. He was just another guy. A persons life outside of martial arts has _nothing _to do with training.


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## Grenadier (Jun 1, 2006)

> The problem is assuming that a gay person is more likely to do this than a straight person. Just like with any marginalized group, there probably are a very small number of homosexuals who pursue a misguided, radical "gay agenda". However, most do not, and simply want to go about their daily business, neither imposing on anyone else, nor hiding or lying about who they are.


 

You missed the point where I said that if they keep things to themselves, then it's their business, and their business alone.  You check your personal issues at the door, plain and simple.  I don't care if someone is gay or straight; you don't bring your dating life into the dojo.  

I will repeat this once more for you, since you seem to have selectively ignored my previous statements: 

You are at a dojo to train.  Check your (non-gear) baggage at the door.  



> When it is said that discussions about personal life have NO PLACE in the dojo, does that mean that students never stand around after class and mention, "My wife and I are going on a road trip this weekend," or "I have to get home. My girlfriend hasn't been feeling well"? I assume that people who share a dojo would be friendly with each other.


 
You statement isn't very logical.  If someone has to leave the dojo or can't make it to class, then their reasons are relevant to the training, since they obviously can't be there.  I'm not going to pry any deeper.



> While of course no one should be allowed to sexually harrass or promote a political agenda,


 
Then we are in agreement. 



> to say that a homosexual student has to OMIT large portions of his or her personal life, or worse yet, LIE, and claim to be straight, when such casual personal conversations happen, is by all means a discriminatory double standard.


 
What someone does at home is their business, and their business alone.  I don't care, as long as they don't try to push their non-martial arts agenda.  By leaving one's personal life out of the dojo, he doesn't have to deal with such things.  



			
				martialintent said:
			
		

> Respectfully, is that _really_ your view or are you using that point to leverage the notion of being unbiased?


 
It is, and always will be my view.  In the 1990's, I've seen two dojos get torn apart when people started letting their personal lives interfere with operations, and there aren't many things in this world that hurt more than seeing your school go through the turmoils, regardless of whether you are a student or instructor.  

Does this sound like a "sterile environment?"  Yes, since the survival of the school as a whole, is important enough to justify it.  Does this mean that classes are always 100% rigid, hard-nosed sessions?  Of course not. If you can manage to interject a piece of relevant humor, it can provide a welcome break from the action without ruining the continuity of the class.  

However, there's a difference between cracking a joke / making a light hearted remark during a class, and bringing in matters that aren't conducive to the training.


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## chinto01 (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> So... can I keep my polict about not training short green men with lumpy heads and giant floppy ears?



As long as you do not get them wet so that they multiply yes.:roflmao: :roflmao: 

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## IcemanSK (Jun 1, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> :asian:
> 
> No matter what your opinion regarding the morality of this issue, this is an important point.
> 
> This sort of thing, "should" be a non-issue.


 
I agree. Its a non-issue.


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## AceHBK (Jun 1, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Back at college I trained BJJ with a gay guy. His lifestyle was never an issue, and BJJ is the most sexual martial art I have ever seen. He never hit on anyone, mentioned he was gay, dry humped me (more then the usual grinding involved) or anything akward. He was just another guy. A persons life outside of martial arts has _nothing _to do with training.


 
I couldnt do it personally.  Would be too uncomfortable for me.  Any man period.  I am all for mixed BJJ. Any women willing to help me learn BJJ please let me know  

No with this being a non issue im sorry many things are an issue.  U can see it like a workplace, we all say that race, religion, etc shouldnt be an issue but those things ARE ISSUE no matter how you slice it.  It is easy to sit here on a messageboard and say one thing but in the company of your friends say another.  I am sure many people here will say that it is a non issue but if they had a gay student in their class, i am sure some name calling has gone on behind that persons back.  Lets be honest.  No matter how we feel it may not be an issue, it really is.

As a 28yr old black man everything is an issue.  When people say "race shouldnt be in issue when dealing with....", im sorry race is an issue.  Do I let it hinder what I do, no but I am aware that is has some bearing on things.  This does not exclude a dojo.  A dojo is no different than any other place   I think those who may not be in that certain "class" may not see it as a issue but those who are will always see it like that.

Just like someone said that they wouldnt care if that person showed up in a dress and heels as long as they got changed into their Gi and worked hard it doesn't matter.  Lets go right on and nip that in the bud right now.  I dont see too many dudes being fine with that and working with that person and if they don't are they wrong for feeling that way?

I see many jumping on Grenadier but at least he is open and says how he feels.  What is worse the people who feel that way but dont say anything out in the open but behind closed doors they say everything else.

Yes it should be a non issue but heck so should other social things, but since we are all human and have various opinions, it will always be an issue.


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## Nomad (Jun 1, 2006)

"The most important thing in the world to me is my orgasm.  The least important thing in the world to me is anyone else's"  - Dennis Miller

'nuff said


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2006)

I don't care if he is gay or straight, it has nothing to do with martial arts training. 

But I agree with Andrew Green, I draw the line at "short green men with lumpy heads and giant floppy ears"


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## pstarr (Jun 1, 2006)

Training is the same for everyone...everyone is expected to put forth their best effort at all times.  I don't care what a person's sexual orientation is - I expect him to learn and train hard.  Period.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

Why is this topic hot?  I don't think homosexuality or heterosexuality or ANY sexuality, for that matter, should be practiced in the dojo.  Sexual preference has nothing to do with training.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Why is this topic hot?  I don't think homosexuality or heterosexuality or ANY sexuality, for that matter, should be practiced in the dojo.  Sexual preference has nothing to do with training.



In a ideal world I would agree, in on the mat we are all just there to train, no lifestyle issues, no gender issues. However we got a whole section to show that being a woman can be an issue at times, and they make up more then 50% of the population...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> In a ideal world I would agree, in on the mat we are all just there to train, no lifestyle issues, no gender issues. However we got a whole section to show that being a woman can be an issue at times, and they make up more then 50% of the population...


 
At the risk of seeming insensitive, I'm not sure how gender differences and sexuality differences corrolate?  The physical differences between male and female support the idea of different training issues.  However, the sexual preferences of any one strain or another doesn't translate well for me into the same type of training issues that physical differences do.

Maybe I'm just a clod...I dunno


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

No, physical differences might not be there.  But that is not the only issue, respect, acceptance, dealing with people uncomfortable training with them, ego's about who "should" be training... These are all issues that are discussed in the women's section that have nothing to do with their bodies.


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## donna (Jun 1, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> I couldnt do it personally. Would be too uncomfortable for me. Any man period. I am all for mixed BJJ. Any women willing to help me learn BJJ please let me know




As a woman I would feel less threatened by a gay man than someone with this attitude.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> No, physical differences might not be there. But that is not the only issue, respect, acceptance, dealing with people uncomfortable training with them, ego's about who "should" be training... These are all issues that are discussed in the women's section that have nothing to do with their bodies.


 
I drempt, once, a perfect world...

I say: if one chooses to do the work, they deserve the respect I can give them as a martial artist.  Everything else flows from that.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 1, 2006)

Interesting thread.

From my own experiences and observations, I suspect this may be a greater or lesser issue depending in great part on where someone lives, and the general attitudes of that area.

Example: I grew up in the upper Midwest of the US, in a very small town in a farming community, population slightly over 4000.  While there are certainly individuals with more liberal attitudes, for the most part it can be extremely conservative.  Uncloseted homosexuals are rare, almost unheard of, and I suspect that they would encounter a lot of difficulties, if not downright discrimination if they were open about who they are with regard to their sexual orientation.  For the most part, people who I grew up with and suspected they were gay did not come out of the closet until they moved to a much larger city with more supportive attitudes and a supportive gay community.  There are other individuals in my hometown who are, in my opinion, clearly gay, but they do their best to hide it and everyone around them at least pretends to believe they are straight.  I believe that in this environment, homosexuality is a big issue, whether in or out of a dojo, due to a lack of exposure and comfort within the greater community.  I think there can be a sense of fear, rooted in a lack of understanding and inexperience with gay people.

I have lived in San Francisco for about 12 years now.  Homosexuality is much more accepted here, and gays are much more open and less secretive about their sexual orientation.  One of my martial arts teachers is a lesbian, extremely skilled at her art, tremendously dedicated to running a successful school, and pours her heart into teaching her students, many of whom, men and women alike, are also gay.  Given the community's greater comfort and acceptance of homosexuality, in this environment it often really is not an issue.  People come to train, we all train together, and nobody cares one way or the other about their private lives outside the school.  After training, people openly talk about what is going on in their lives, including their partners.  Nobody bats an eye about it.

I believe the magnitude of the issue is dictated by one's own personal feelings on the subject, as well as by the degree of acceptance shown by the community at large.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I drempt, once, a perfect world...
> 
> I say: if one chooses to do the work, they deserve the respect I can give them as a martial artist.  Everything else flows from that.



I'm with you fully, but, it IS an issue for some.  They may be wrong, but it is.

and to some extent I think it's an issue for a lot more then admit it.  I respect Ace's honesty above, and completely see where he is coming from.

Would there be people that I was uncomfortable rolling with?  You bet.  Not because of their gender or sexual orientation, but personality could do it.  Someone that sexuallized it would definately make me uncomfortable, male or female.


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## donna (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I'm with you fully, but, it IS an issue for some.  They may be wrong, but it is.
> 
> and to some extent I think it's an issue for a lot more then admit it. I respect Ace's honesty above, and completely see where he is coming from.
> 
> Would there be people that I was uncomfortable rolling with? You bet. Not because of their gender or sexual orientation, but personality could do it. Someone that sexuallized it would definately make me uncomfortable, male or female.




I totally agree!!!


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 1, 2006)

What you do in your bedroom is your own business. Sexual orientation or related topics should have no impact on training in the dojo. If proper etiquette is enforced no one should be discussing their sex life while training....especially if children are present, regardless of your orientation. 
IMHO


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## AceHBK (Jun 1, 2006)

donna said:
			
		

> As a woman I would feel less threatened by a gay man than someone with this attitude.


 
It was a joke that went bad.  Sorry it got taken the wrong way.
Imma man our minds stay in the gutter.  My gf says that is my biggest problem


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## Robert Lee (Jun 1, 2006)

I do not believe in what a gay person does. I have never taught a gay person. Before I would ever consider instructing a gay person I would want a docters note showing that person was not H I V or aids infected. As blood does get spilled from time to time. If that person did not have either I would consider training them. as long as the  gay issue never came up As its not about M/A to talk it in a training class. But yes I do frown on it But can relize even though it is wrong. That person is still part of the human race So I would consider instruction And they must present there self as a man or women which ever real sex they are when they work out.


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## donna (Jun 1, 2006)

AceHBK said:
			
		

> It was a joke that went bad.  Sorry it got taken the wrong way.
> Imma man our minds stay in the gutter.  My gf says that is my biggest problem



No offence taken, I know you were just joking, but the sad thing is that I have come across men that do think this way and I have felt threatened while training.


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## michaeledward (Jun 1, 2006)

Oh, Please .... 

Shouldn't this thread more accurately be titled "*Homophobia and training*". After all, we are talking about whether we feel squishy about working with someone who is gay. 

If Gay Gary puts on the Gi, and enters that matt to work out with all you straight people, don't you think he's a little freaked out about how different you are from him?  

If there are gay people at the studio where I train, I hope they can talk about their partners in the same way I talk about my wife. I know about Jan's husband and brother. I know about Sharon's husband. I know about Martin's wife, Don's Wife, and Big Mike's wife. Why should I know about Billy's partner Frank? 

I grab, punch, push, and kick people of the opposite gender in place that off the matt would be inappropriate, but on the matt, it's called training. 

But more than that, after five and a half years, these training partners are more than just people to beat up upon. If I wanted to work out with a kicking pad, I could train in my basement.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> What other subjects do you think are "controversial" such that they might disrupt a class?


 
Amway Sales.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2006)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I grab, punch, push, and kick people of the opposite gender in place that off the matt would be inappropriate, but on the matt, it's called training.


 
These were my thoughts exactly when reading this thread.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I do not believe in what a gay person does. I have never taught a gay person. Before I would ever consider instructing a gay person I would want a docters note showing that person was not H I V or aids infected. As blood does get spilled from time to time. If that person did not have either I would consider training them. as long as the  gay issue never came up As its not about M/A to talk it in a training class. But yes I do frown on it But can relize even though it is wrong. That person is still part of the human race So I would consider instruction And they must present there self as a man or women which ever real sex they are when they work out.



Assuming that every gay person has HIV is like assuming that every drug addict has hepatitis C.  You are in more danger from a person with hemophilia (as they get numerous drugs and blood transfusions) than you are from a homosexual.

Should such issues be discussed in the dojang?  Only if, somehow, they impact training (which seems unlikely).  Do I care what other people do in their personal lives outside class?  Not a whit.  Do I know homosexual martial artists?  Yes, I do.  Does it affect class performance, expectations, or contact?  Not at all.  And before you ask, I am a heterosexual female, and the homosexual person in question is female.  

You don't approve.  That's your choice.  Ask yourself, however, why, given the general attitude that exists about homosexuality (and has been much worse in the past), why someone would *choose* a sexual orientation that leads to so much derision?  I find a person's sexual orientation meaningless, as far as martial arts are concerned... in fact, I find a person's sexual orientation meaningless in general; I have had plenty of homosexual friends, and I have never had a problem with any of them - considerably less, in fact, than I have had with straight guys who think rather too highly of themselves.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 1, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> Assuming that every gay person has HIV is like assuming that every drug addict has hepatitis C. You are in more danger from a person with hemophilia (as they get numerous drugs and blood transfusions) than you are from a homosexual.
> 
> Should such issues be discussed in the dojang? Only if, somehow, they impact training (which seems unlikely). Do I care what other people do in their personal lives outside class? Not a whit. Do I know homosexual martial artists? Yes, I do. Does it affect class performance, expectations, or contact? Not at all. And before you ask, I am a heterosexual female, and the homosexual person in question is female.
> 
> You don't approve. That's your choice. Ask yourself, however, why, given the general attitude that exists about homosexuality (and has been much worse in the past), why someone would *choose* a sexual orientation that leads to so much derision? I find a person's sexual orientation meaningless, as far as martial arts are concerned... in fact, I find a person's sexual orientation meaningless in general; I have had plenty of homosexual friends, and I have never had a problem with any of them - considerably less, in fact, than I have had with straight guys who think rather too highly of themselves.


 I was not raised to believe in this It is also said on the base of god That people shall become so far turned away from god the men will love men and women will love women. I have my beliefs And i will yeild those beliefs to a point. I do not hate gay people I just do not believe in what the do. I do not think they all have aids or hiv. But If I was or a student was to spr with contact and blood was spilled from each. Its safer to know your not at chance to get something like this. BOXERS that did drugs and get hiv. can not get in the ring agin because its not safe. I am not being rude. I just should be able to belive in my beliefs also And I do not want to know about what some one else does with there partner. Thats private and rude to talk about to others. Aids is spread by unsafe acts. in a M/A school you need to know if you have a person that may be positive. Be it a gay person or a drug user that shoots drugs. God made woman and man to be parteners not man and man or woman and woman. Friends yes thats fine beyond that well I will never believe its right. And I do know some who are gay But just do not believe the way they believe.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 1, 2006)

Robert, would you make a person you suspected of drug use get HIV tested? How about a straight guy you knew was sexually active? How about a person who just got a blood transfusion? How about a black guy, since they are statistically most likley to have AIDS? 

There are a lot of gays who don't make a big deal out of it, you probably train with them and don't realize it.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I am not being rude.



Saying a gay person would have to get HIV screened first?  I'd say that's pretty rude...



> Aids is spread by unsafe acts.



Being Gay is a unsafe act?  

[/quote]
 Be it a gay person or a drug user that shoots drugs. God made woman and man to be parteners not man and man or woman and woman. Friends yes thats fine beyond that well I will never believe its right. And I do know some who are gay But just do not believe the way they believe.[/quote]

Umm... straight non-drugging using people CAN get HIV too...

Your personal religious beliefs are not that accurate when it comes to the reality of the virus.


----------



## hapki68 (Jun 1, 2006)

I think I started all this.  

Sorry... a long discourse on the good and evil of my (gay) existance was not my intent.  My goal with my coming out meet and greet post was to be up front about who I am so I, too, could chat about my personal life with others on here (like I do with my straight buddies in my dojang) and ask if there were other gay guys out there for me to chat with about various MA gay-related issues.  That's it.

But after reading all these postings on homosexuality, I feel obligated to say something more, since I seem to be the one gay guy in the hundreds of people on here freaking out some "brave" martial artists.  

On one hand, I'm greatly tempted to write a biting retort to "Robert Lee" and the black guy (I forgot his name) who is ok with discriminatory attitudes.  But I'm not going to.  And believe you me, it's not because I don't have the ammo or the anger.  (For example, everyone with even a high school education knows the vast, vast majority of the world's AIDs cases are in heterosexuals, particularly in Africa.  Read a book, for god's sake.)  

I actually think these guys' views are my best defense.  If you'd rather have them in your dojo than me... so be it.  I have a feeling that I (and all the straight people I know) wouldn't want to be in your dojo either.

This is the last I'm posting on this particular thread.  

But let me conclude with this: if the threat of my sweaty hips grinding deep into your meaty *** scares the bejeesus out of you and gets you off balance... I say excellent.  Keep picturing it boy.  All the easier to hapkido chop you right in the neck.

<bow>


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> But let me conclude with this: if the threat of my sweaty hips grinding deep into your meaty *** scares the bejeesus out of you and gets you off balance... I say excellent. Keep picturing it boy. All the easier to hapkido chop you right in the neck.
> 
> <bow>



:lfao:


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jun 1, 2006)

Ok...you're cool.  That's all there is to it


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## michaeledward (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> I think I started all this.
> 
> Sorry... a long discourse on the good and evil of my (gay) existance was not my intent. My goal with my coming out meet and greet post was to be up front about who I am so I, too, could chat about my personal life with others on here (like I do with my straight buddies in my dojang) and ask if there were other gay guys out there for me to chat with about various MA gay-related issues. That's it.


 
I don't know if you started all this or not. I missed your 'Meet and Greet' post, as I seldom look at those threads. But certainly, here, let me extend a welcome. 

Mike


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## AceHBK (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> On one hand, I'm greatly tempted to write a biting retort to "Robert Lee" and *the black guy (I forgot his name) who is ok with discriminatory attitudes.* But I'm not going to. And believe you me, it's not because I don't have the ammo or the anger. (For example, everyone with even a high school education knows the vast, vast majority of the world's AIDs cases are in heterosexuals, particularly in Africa. Read a book, for god's sake.)
> 
> I actually think these guys' views are my best defense. If you'd rather have them in your dojo than me... so be it. I have a feeling that I (and all the straight people I know) wouldn't want to be in your dojo either.
> 
> ...



This is a great discussion and *please dont stop posting*.  Messageboards are for discussion.  Some people may change your views on things and you may change others on things and sometimes no one will change.  We wont get anywhere if we all don't talk though.  This is by far in my short time on this board the best thread I have read and been a part of.  Debate here are USUALLY in a respectable way...lol.  We are all different and have different ways of thinking.  This is how we learn more about others.  I like the heated debates over everyone just agreeing, b/c usually at the end some progress has been made from the initial beginning.
Welcome to MT......

Now..lol...

That black guy would be me.  Do I condone discriminatory acts in dojo's ...no.  Does it happen tho?  Of course.  My point was that I know it exists and I move on.  If something about it prevents me from doing something...then so be it.  I find another door to enter.  U can hide being gay u cant hide being black.
Discriminatory practices happen all the time in different forms and fashions. Some are blatant while others are in the background.
If someoen in my dojo said they felt uncomfortable working with black students...would I be mad?? No.  That is how they feel. I respect them MORE for coming out and saying it rather than hiding it.
If someone doesnt feel comfortable working with someone who is homosexual what is wrong with that?  That is their personal preference.  Just like dating only within your race.

In a perfect world no one would care and we wouldnt have these issues but we do.  We just learn how to deal with them the best we can.

Many people say it doesnt matter and what not but in society it still does matter to some extint.




For example, if you had a school and you took in a gay student and other students felt uncomfortable.  Those students came to you (teacher) and said they would prefer to not have a gay member at your school and threaten to leave if you keep that gay student.

Do you  
A...keep the student and lose a lot of students (mind you, you are running a business and this is your source of income)
B...Tell the gay student that they cant train there anymore so that you can keep students and keep the doors open.

Think long and hard and give a honest answer.  You have to earn a living.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> But let me conclude with this: if the threat of my sweaty hips grinding deep into your meaty *** scares the bejeesus out of you and gets you off balance... I say excellent. Keep picturing it boy. All the easier to hapkido chop you right in the neck.
> 
> <bow>


 
Broke Back Karate! ROFLMAO! That's classic. 

WHO CARES!? How would anyone even know unless they were told anyway. It's not like "Sexual Preference" is on the school application. Homo's are no different than the rest of us. They just happen to like the same gender. It doesn't mean they'r "Evil". Get over it! Hey....I look at it this way: The more gay guys there are the less competition there is for me! WOOT. More girls for me! How is that a bad thing? LOL


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## Robert Lee (Jun 1, 2006)

One person thinks one way the other person a different way. I do not hate a gay person I do not look at them as aids infected people. They did not cause aids. I would be willing to offer instruction to a gay person. But Before any contact training I would want them to be honest. They would want me to be honest too If I was HIV or had Aids.  I would expect the same from them.  I would  still stay with what I believe. I have that right as you have yours. If a person wants to get mad or upset because some one does not agree with this issue Then that person only sees there side. every one does not allways agree. And forums About M/A is not a place to bring sexual preferance into light to find others that are gay. If it relates to M/A then fine. And in this thread it goes on about being gay and being treated different at a school perhaps. Not every one wants to know if a person is gay. Todays world excepts more as long as it does not effect the person. Look whats happening in the world it some day effects you one way or the other.  If a person is gay Thats there life Its not discrimination or racist or hate if a person does not want to just say fine  A gay person can do anything they choose to do Be it M/A  or  a doctor. I should not have started on this thread But I did.  If I offended others  sorry for that  Did I lie No I said my truth. I will not bleed into this thread any longer As I will not change what I believe. And others will keep what they believe.


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## Ceicei (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 said:
			
		

> I think I started all this.



Do not apologize.  Sometimes the best discourses are about difficult issues.  Being able to discuss them will help us have a better understanding of people and the world around us.  

It is my opinion that martial artists should be able to face the challenges and to honestly examine our thoughts.  One thing I've learned from studying in kenpo is to take a step back to look at my thought process, see what prejudices I may have, realize I am the one who needs to acknowledge my views and be more tolerant of how others are, and thus I become a better person.

- Ceicei


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68

Frankly gay, straight, bi, I don't care. It does not make a difference to me what 2 consenting adults do. As for training with any of the above, again I don't care, sexual orientation has nothing to do with MA in my opinion.

That being said, once again welcome to MT and I rather like Hapkido, it reminds me of my first martial art jujitsu.


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## Kacey (Jun 1, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> One person thinks one way the other person a different way. I do not hate a gay person I do not look at them as aids infected people. They did not cause aids. I would be willing to offer instruction to a gay person. But Before any contact training I would want them to be honest. They would want me to be honest too If I was HIV or had Aids.  I would expect the same from them.  I would  still stay with what I believe. I have that right as you have yours. If a person wants to get mad or upset because some one does not agree with this issue Then that person only sees there side. every one does not allways agree. And forums About M/A is not a place to bring sexual preferance into light to find others that are gay. If it relates to M/A then fine. And in this thread it goes on about being gay and being treated different at a school perhaps. Not every one wants to know if a person is gay. Todays world excepts more as long as it does not effect the person. Look whats happening in the world it some day effects you one way or the other.  If a person is gay Thats there life Its not discrimination or racist or hate if a person does not want to just say fine  A gay person can do anything they choose to do Be it M/A  or  a doctor. I should not have started on this thread But I did.  If I offended others  sorry for that  Did I lie No I said my truth. I will not bleed into this thread any longer As I will not change what I believe. And others will keep what they believe.



If you require homosexuals to declare their sexuality and submit to a blood test for HIV/AIDS prior to training, and do not require the same of heterosexuals (despite the many risk factors that cause people of all orientations to acquire HIV/AIDS), then you are biased, and are demonstrating prejudicial behavior.  The only way you could require such testing is to require it from *everyone* - which is illegal under the laws of the US... sort of.  The way it was explained to me, you can require someone to be tested - but you can't require them to disclose the results, because those results are personal and confidential.

You don't like homosexuals, and that's your choice.  Despite your protestations to the contrary, however, you are prejudiced, and you are not open-minded.  For their sakes, I hope no one walks into your facility and wants to join - but if they do, remember, for your own sake, that taking the action you describe will leave you open to a wonderfully expensive lawsuit, and one that you *will* lose.  No matter your opinons on this subject, that's something you should consider.  You can ask people about medical concerns, that's valid, but you cannot prevent someone from training in your facility without a blood test solely because of their sexual orientation, as that is a violation of their civil rights.  This particular part of the issue has nothing to do with your opinion - it has to do with law and legal liability, and your opinion on the subject will not matter one bit.


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## terryl965 (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68 I actually stated this thread do to a converstation me and a fellow student had today and he said he was a gay man and did it brother me and thought it would be a great post for decussion here at MT. So far it has been and I believe in what I said in the beginning he is a greta person and has become a fellow friend and MA'er and my school and family loves him no-matter what. Please keep posting your views and comment so we can all have an imtelligent converstation and grow together, just remember we cannot make everybody happy.
Terry


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## Paul B (Jun 1, 2006)

Hapki68,

In my class what matters is that you show up and give 100%...anything else that has nothing to do with Hapkido is in the realm of "not my concern". I don't think that the joint locks get any better or worse depending on sexual orientation. I think any instructor worth his/her salt would tell you the same.  Hapki!


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## DArnold (Jun 1, 2006)

hapki68,
After being in several martial arts and teaching/training for 28 years you struck something I have never heard.

Would you enlighten me as to what some of the "MA gay-related issues" are?

I have delt with all sorts of topics:
prejudice
sexual harrasment
religious issues...
but MA gay-related issues have never come up and I have worked out under/with and instructed many people of various sexual orientations.

Thanks



			
				hapki68 said:
			
		

> I think I started all this.
> 
> Sorry... a long discourse on the good and evil of my (gay) existance was not my intent.  My goal with my coming out meet and greet post was to be up front about who I am so I, too, could chat about my personal life with others on here (like I do with my straight buddies in my dojang) and ask if there were other gay guys out there for me to chat with about various MA gay-related issues.  That's it.
> 
> ...


----------



## Robert Lee (Jun 1, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> If you require homosexuals to declare their sexuality and submit to a blood test for HIV/AIDS prior to training, and do not require the same of heterosexuals (despite the many risk factors that cause people of all orientations to acquire HIV/AIDS), then you are biased, and are demonstrating prejudicial behavior. The only way you could require such testing is to require it from *everyone* - which is illegal under the laws of the US... sort of. The way it was explained to me, you can require someone to be tested - but you can't require them to disclose the results, because those results are personal and confidential.
> 
> You don't like homosexuals, and that's your choice. Despite your protestations to the contrary, however, you are prejudiced, and you are not open-minded. For their sakes, I hope no one walks into your facility and wants to join - but if they do, remember, for your own sake, that taking the action you describe will leave you open to a wonderfully expensive lawsuit, and one that you *will* lose. No matter your opinons on this subject, that's something you should consider. You can ask people about medical concerns, that's valid, but you cannot prevent someone from training in your facility without a blood test solely because of their sexual orientation, as that is a violation of their civil rights. This particular part of the issue has nothing to do with your opinion - it has to do with law and legal liability, and your opinion on the subject will not matter one bit.


 I just had to come back.  Well maybe I was wrong to say I would make a person get a blood test BUT I would be sure to ask for a honest answer. And thats not being prejudice Thats being safe. And If I ever had a gay person in a  class They would be treated just the same other then I would ask them about HIV or aids. And expect the other students to treat them just asany other person. I would still believe my understanding of things. But not push my belief on that person just as I would never allow that person to tell me or any students why they are gay. its there life not mine or sombody elses. Just As person of any different race there is no race but the human race So I do not allow nor ever think of a person other then just as a person. And as I said a gay person is still a person so I do not look down on them for that I just do not believe its right. And that is not aginst any laws so for the last time for sure I did not mean to offend I did offend and will say I am sorry But I was honest just over stated my belief. Better to be truth full then to lie we just all can not believe what others believe. And to the person that said they were Gay I should not have thrown rocks yoyr way as this was wrong to voice My thought.s I could have been politite and kept those thoughts to my self. And as others have said welcome to this forum. I will keep my thoughts on this subject to my self and I do respect you for who you are I just do not agree with the life style.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 1, 2006)

The gay issue is a non issue with me it simply doesn't matter to me.  The HIV / AIDS thing does because it can put other people at risk that does not mean I would refuse to train someone with it but somethings would be out due to the risk.  The gay people I know did not chose the lifestyle they were born that way.  This is friends and some family to.  The gay community has been very supportive and helpful to another family member (who is straight) also and that I greatly appreciate.

Hapki68,
I commend you for your honesty and openess.  I wish you all the best and much success.  If I can ever be of help let me know.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Being Gay is a unsafe act?



It is in some neighborhoods or around some moro... people.


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## Ceicei (Jun 1, 2006)

This reminds me of a case law regarding a boy who is HIV positive and he wanted to study at a Japanese style martial arts school.  I found it several months ago on FindLaw website and saved it to my harddrive.  The recent comments made about the HIV issue and martial arts training reminded me of that case.  Here it is for you to consider.

Mods:  If you feel this case needs to be moved to The Study for further discussion, we can do that.  It has more to do with HIV positive status and martial arts training and nothing to do with homosexuality, so it is not directly related to the original post.

- Ceicei


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## Cryozombie (Jun 1, 2006)

Oh, and somthing I need to point out to the guys on here, despite teh fact it should be obvious...

Just cuz a guy is gay, doesn't mean he likes YOU.​


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## Ceicei (Jun 1, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Oh, and somthing I need to point out to the guys on here, despite teh fact it should be obvious...
> 
> Just cuz a guy is gay, doesn't mean he likes YOU.​



Agreed.  

- Ceicei


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## DArnold (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert,
After looking at the posts it is still evedent that there are a lot of concerns, fears, and misinformation going around.

But after reading your post I have a question: Once the subject has been broached then is it prejudice to say you are "against gays", "don't believe in a gay life style",  "think that a gay lifestyle is wrong"?

Try not to wander on this and stay on track - leave the blood tests and AIDs and the '...but' out.

I was raised in the "tolerance years" when you were just supposed to accept everyone for what they were.

I find it amuseing that in many conversations like these if you are against something then you are prejudice.

In my later years I realized that, not saying anything, is the same as saying something is "ok".  Inaction is an action of acceptance.

There are many hot-button issues like these where many times tolerance is aproval.  Honor Killings, Femal mutalation, forced child labor....  If you disagree with these ways of life are you prejudice?  Should you be tolerant?

Martial Arts are a wonderful assistant to your Moral and Phylosophical compass for life.  Not communicating, or ignoring issues does not help anyone.

I don't think anyone should ever apologise for what they believe is right or wrong.  Now how you go about things is another story.

Can these issues be used in class.  *SURE.*  As an instructor I am responsible for my students and how they think.  Kicking and punching is only 50% of the job.  Just as this discussion shows you a lot about the people on this board. How many just jump in with the answer based on assumptions?  How many just ask questions?  How many go off on tangents. How many judge?  How many have incredible logic? How many answer with just emotion?...  These mental traits tell me how you will probably act outside class.  (GEE your brain controlls your kicking and punching!) Also where I need to lead my students for growth (mentally).

However, issues like these must be kept on a strict leash or they soon become irrational and emotional and wander (with many ...but).  Similar to Politics, Religion, Morals...

If you think that just showing up for a certian amount of time is the only measure of rank then that is why there are so many problems with higher ranks that are clueless.

Just a thought

And terryl965 it's good to read your stuff again!  I've been off a while.



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I just had to come back. Well maybe I was wrong to say I would make a person get a blood test BUT I would be sure to ask for a honest answer. And thats not being prejudice Thats being safe. And If I ever had a gay person in a class They would be treated just the same other then I would ask them about HIV or aids. And expect the other students to treat them just asany other person. I would still believe my understanding of things. But not push my belief on that person just as I would never allow that person to tell me or any students why they are gay. its there life not mine or sombody elses. Just As person of any different race there is no race but the human race So I do not allow nor ever think of a person other then just as a person. And as I said a gay person is still a person so I do not look down on them for that I just do not believe its right. And that is not aginst any laws so for the last time for sure I did not mean to offend I did offend and will say I am sorry But I was honest just over stated my belief. Better to be truth full then to lie we just all can not believe what others believe. And to the person that said they were Gay I should not have thrown rocks yoyr way as this was wrong to voice My thought.s I could have been politite and kept those thoughts to my self. And as others have said welcome to this forum. I will keep my thoughts on this subject to my self and I do respect you for who you are I just do not agree with the life style.


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## DArnold (Jun 2, 2006)

Thanks for the lead,
I remember about a decade ago when this concern came up and I was training Referees across the US.  We were working on our Policys on how we would handle someone bleading in the ring.
It was brought to our attention at the time that Texas had/or was trying to pass a law that any child in school who was bleading from an injury was to be removed from that event.

I never heard how Texas finally handled this.

The good question that came up was how would they ever play Football? 



			
				Ceicei said:
			
		

> This reminds me of a case law regarding a boy who is HIV positive and he wanted to study at a Japanese style martial arts school.  I found it several months ago on FindLaw website and saved it to my harddrive.  The recent comments made about the HIV issue and martial arts training reminded it of that case.  Here it is for you to consider.
> 
> Mods:  If you feel this case needs to be moved to The Study for further discussion, we can do that.  It has more to do with HIV positive status and martial arts training and nothing to do with homosexuality, so it is not directly related to the original post.
> 
> - Ceicei


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 2, 2006)

*Again....how would you know??* If you suspect an individual and ask you could offend them and lose a student and then you'd probably feel like a fool for doing it..... probably..

Anyway, HIV does not discriminate. Heterosexuals have the disiese too and it's not necessarily caused due to a Homosexual act or illegal drug use either. 

Here's something else to consider: IF the worlds greatest martial arts master just happened to be gay and everyone knew it...would you refuse to train under them? Why limit it to being gay? What if they were different than you in any other way that predjudiced your feelings toward them? Would you give up the opportunity to learn from them because they are different than you? I've seen people refuse to train or accept guidance from females or people younger than themselves as well. Their loss.


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## Drac (Jun 2, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> "Sex" and sexual preference (one way or the other) should _never_ be an "issue" w/in a martial arts school.
> 
> period
> 
> ...


 
Well said..If they come to me with a desire and dedication to learn I will teach.. Sexual preference should NOT be an issue....


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## hapki68 (Jun 2, 2006)

I really didn't want to get back involved with this thread, because I plan to post another one about summer reading materials and I don't want to look like I can't shut up.  

But here goes.  

DArnold: Sorry I was vague on the "MA gay-related issues."  I meant I'd like to ask questions like, "Have you felt comfortable coming out at your dojo? What was the reaction if you did?  Do you know other gay guys who are into the MA?  Do you think the MA attracts more or less gay-friendly practitioners than other sports, like baseball?"  That sorta thing.  

And would I want to compare notes about cute guys in class just as straight guys do about girls? -- absolutely.  I never took a vow of celibacy when I signed up for hapkido.

No, I'm not HIV positive -- and that's no one's business.  And why people are bleeding in a dojo and flinging the blood around is beyond me.  

I disagree with the view that bigotry, ignorance (greed, malice, stealing, etc) are ok so long as people are up front about them.  What kind of morality is that?  If I had come home from school and told my dad that I used the "n" word but I did so honestly, he would've smacked me up one wall and down the other.  He taught me that there SHOULD be a closet.  The issue is knowing what to put in it.  

He also taught me that we should try to better ourselves through life.  That means we don't cling to views just because our grandparents had them 60 years ago.  We learn as we go along, and we are obligated (at least in my family) to move the ball down the field.  As my grandmother used to say to all of us, "I don't care where you're going in life, but it better be forward."

The vast majority of gay men and lesbians do not choose to be gay.  (We went through the holocaust!!!  Do you really think we'd endure an attempt at genocide because we're simply hot and bothered by washboard abs?)  And being gay or lesbian does not impact society negatively in any proven way.  We pay more than we get back through social services, we're law abiding, our children grow up to be no worse off than kids in hetero families, etc.  Unlike the sins I named above which hurt individuals and society as a whole, objections to gays and lesbians are based on unproven religious beliefs and ignorance.  That's why we should be out of the closet and goofy hate-filled views should be in it.

Ironically, some people think that to be tolerant, one must have no morals.  Far from it.  Tolerance means you know where to draw the line.  Most gay men have prejudices like everyone else.  We don't like everybody, nor do we agree with "anything goes" in society.  

Most of us, however, understand that our prejudices have to be tempered with reason and compassion.  So, we may have stereotypes about a particular group (and we do), but we try not to let them color our views about individuals or form the basis of our actions.  

Hapki68


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## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2006)

Hapki68 that was one fine post
Terry


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## annie (Jun 2, 2006)

Wow this is one topic I didn't expect to even come up here.  I was raised by two women and would not change a single thing about it. We unfortunetly live in a society that frowns upon what they can't understand.  Hell the best thing, i feel, for any gay individual would be martial arts.  My mothers girlfriend could have used it, when 7 yrs ago was sitting on a bench on cape cod minding her business and 2 young guys came up said nothing and pummeled her!  Seeing kids grow up tormented because of their sexuality, that they have no control over, is insane.  I am suprised we don't see more homosexual people in the arts.  I know what it was like growing up teased and beaten up just because who my mothers were.  I vowed long ago I would not let that happen to my son when he grew up with many grandmothers.  Fortunetly living on cape cod there is an acceptance in society for the gay community. I can't imagine any gay man or women flaunting thier sexuality in a class,  if anything they are there to learn how to protect themselves from those who  do not agree with thier lifestlye. even growing up surrounded by it, it took me many years to accept  and understand, my moms for who they were.  I don't hate anyone who is anti-gay,  EVERYONE has their own beliefs and feelings.  One of my closest friends cant even talk about my moms it bugs her out.  OH Well

Live well, train hard....you only live once


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## Robert Lee (Jun 2, 2006)

DArnold said:
			
		

> Robert,
> After looking at the posts it is still evedent that there are a lot of concerns, fears, and misinformation going around.
> 
> But after reading your post I have a question: Once the subject has been broached then is it prejudice to say you are "against gays", "don't believe in a gay life style", "think that a gay lifestyle is wrong"?
> ...


 I took the time to humble my views to show I am trying to not let things get out of hand.. What I believe I am sure many many more believe. They just stay quit about it not to offend.  Now as M/A goes. I spent my time learning what I know. 34 years training and instructing.   Sex with a person other then man and woman Is a sin. That simple. No one can say its right. Liberal thinking is fine force that on some one its wrong. Yes out side the scool I still believ what I believe. I maintain that right same as anybody else. That is NOt hate Not agreeing or not likeing is not hate. If a person can not apploizige For hurting someones feelings Fine Its a two way street. There was no holicast for Gays. Far as I know it takes a gay person to make another gay person. Some say they were born gay, Was they It sounds better to tell that. Many states have laws on the books that say it is a crime for certion sexual acts. Making what most gays do illegal. So is that law wrong. it was made to maintain moral values.People have neighbors they know But disagree with there life style. Every body does not except or agree with a gay life style. So The gay people know this. And to try to label a person by a slandered name is to enforce there beliefs that its right. Isnt that what going here. It is not right The first people that thought it wasHid what they thought or done. Then liberal thoughts think its right to force that way on people who do not agree. Bigot, prejiduce,That refures to race not gay. But its bled over to bring attention to something wrong. Ask your preacher ,preist pastor. If the church you attend believes being gay is right in the eyes of the church and the lord. I do not teach hate I do not discuss Hate If your gay I do not want to know that. And sure do not want to use it asa topic in a class. Keep it to your self. As far as blood in the school We do do contact training There will be blood spilled at times. Even if you do not do contact. Things happen. Its M/A not danceing classes. Its about learning to Fight And learning not to have to fight. Its about learning to live in life. Not excepting what you know is not moral or right. But yet not condem And hope that people can change. People stop drug use daily. people stop stealing daily People change as they relize they should. People can stop being gay if they choose to do so. What do you think of a drug dealer or addict were they born that way. Is it something you want to be around is it something you will say its wrong But You do not care lets just except it and forget the laws and let them watch your children. People do not have to bend and except. I tried to aploizige and drop my feelings . No good on that. Push the buttons because being strainght and not believeing . well i guess that being prejiduce towards  Straight non believers.


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## hapki68 (Jun 2, 2006)

Annie,

Thanks so much for that very thoughtful and well written post.  Sorry to hear about what happened to your mom on the bench.  I hope she's ok.

I, too, have been surprised that more gays and lesbians don't take MA, at least out of a need for self defense.  I suspect more of us are doing so... just closeted, out of respect for some straight (perceived or otherwise) sensibilities.

About 10 years ago, a friend of mine was hit in the head with a bat in DC by a few guys that drove in from rural Virginia.  The attackers were held down a group of people until the cops arrived.  As they were being led away by the police, the young men were shocked that they were actually being arrested, and one yelled, "But they're just fags!!!"  

I'm sure these guys were raised to believe we're "child-molesting, disease-spreading, god-hating, family-destroyers."  I think they thought they were simply hunting animals.  Who would care?

Perhaps they should be applauded for being honest with their feelings.

My friend is fine today.

Where on Cape Cod?  My partner (of 11 years) grew up in Centreville.  The Cape is a terrific place.

Hapki68


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## AceHBK (Jun 2, 2006)

This is a great thread but I think it has gotten off topic. 
Topics of AIDS/HIV/RELIGION are off topic to what was asked.

I hope we have somewhat answered Terry's question.

Matter of fact let me go back and re-read it cause through all this I have forgotten it.


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## Cirdan (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I took the time to humble my views to show I am trying to not let things get out of hand.. What I believe I am sure many many more believe. They just stay quit about it not to offend. Now as M/A goes. I spent my time learning what I know. 34 years training and instructing. Sex with a person other then man and woman Is a sin. That simple. No one can say its right.


 
Not gay myself but I got no problem saying homosexuality is right for whomever wants to practice it. It still suprises me to see people using religion as an excuse for facism, but hey, as long as you leave it at the Dojo doorstep I guess it ain`t a problem. Personally I think christians are misguided people and priests are potential child molesters but I leave those feelings at the door too.


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## bydand (Jun 2, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I don't care if a guy shows up in heels and a dress.  When he comes out of the locker room with a gi on, he better be ready to sweat and kick some ***!



Dude, lets get real, as long as the dress and heels don't clash with the handbag it's OK.  Other than that someone should take him aside and explain why Summers, shouldn't mix winter/fall colors.  LOL, don't know why my mind ran down that road at all, but you are 100% correct!  As long as they are there to train, train!  If there to troll, there is the door.  Same for anybody else regardless of orentation, pick up a date at the local watering hole, pick up MA's at the Dojo.


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## bydand (Jun 2, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Oh, and somthing I need to point out to the guys on here, despite teh fact it should be obvious...
> 
> Just cuz a guy is gay, doesn't mean he likes YOU.​



Hey, why not, I'm hot!  LOL


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 2, 2006)

DArnold said:
			
		

> Robert, I find it amuseing that in many conversations like these if you are against something then you are prejudice.
> 
> In my later years I realized that, not saying anything, is the same as saying something is "ok".  Inaction is an action of acceptance.
> 
> There are many hot-button issues like these where many times tolerance is aproval.  Honor Killings, Femal mutalation, forced child labor....  If you disagree with these ways of life are you prejudice?  Should you be tolerant?


Damn, and I thought Robert was the biggest bigot on here. Then you go and compare homosexuality to murder, torture, and slavery. Congrats on raising the bar.

Honor killings, mutilation and child labor are all forms of coercion. They are morally reprehensible because they involve the use of violence or force on an unwilling victim. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice involving consenting individuals. No one is harmed by being gay. They _are _harmed by *******s who hate someone without reason and want to force their beliefs on someone else.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice involving consenting individuals.


 
I think this is one of the great misunderstandings about homosexuality.  It really is not a choice.  Homosexuals do not chose to be homosexual.  There are homosexual, because that is who they are, plain and simple, like it or not.  If you believe in God, well then, that is how God made them.


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## hapki68 (Jun 2, 2006)

Amen, brother.  

Homosexuality is a "lifestyle" and "choice" to the same degree heterosexuality is.  For example, I can pleasure your wife in delicious ways she's only dreamed of but that doesn't make me straight.  

Any warrior here willing to admit that he fantasizes about hot man on man love, but chooses not to act on it!  Anyone?

Joking aside, this point is critical, because the "choice" bit provides an easy moral out for those that want to condemn gays and lesbians.  If it's not a choice, it's harder for the bigots to explain and justify the mistreatment.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 2, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Damn, and I thought Robert was the biggest bigot on here. Then you go and compare homosexuality to murder, torture, and slavery. Congrats on raising the bar.
> 
> Honor killings, mutilation and child labor are all forms of coercion. They are morally reprehensible because they involve the use of violence or force on an unwilling victim. Homosexuality is a lifestyle choice involving consenting individuals. No one is harmed by being gay. They _are _harmed by *******s who hate someone without reason and want to force their beliefs on someone else.


 Is not it being a bigot if some one does not believe In what you think. Then I see more bigots because I do not believe being gay is right And then thy think I am the bigot. Looks like straight people are being put on the cross being forced to except Would you be a bigot if you did not like neo nazis. KKK adolf Hitler. I dont not believe in that either am i bigot because i feel thats wrong.  In my state there has been much going on about putting Gay books in the children section at public librarys. Children are influenced on what they see and read and hear.  They could NOt ban the books because People yell civil rights. so they put themon the highest shelfs so small children could not reach them.  Forcing sexual beliefs on adults and children Its plain wrong. When some one said God made people that are gay. Yes God perhaps did Make Man and woman. Man and woman though turned gay Yes I read through recent studies That some NOT ALL children are born with extra genes That makes them more then likely to become GAy. Those I say  Would either have to fight it harder or except I guess what they were born with. Still some kind of choice. Life deals us all a path that says we have a choice. That is why we are different in jobs in life styles. I never said A gay person is a bad person. I just can not believe or go along with that life style. If a Gay president run The USA and did a good job I would stand behind that person suport that person. Would I agree with the Gay life style No. But I would  Believe in what that person Did. If I had a supervisor that was gay I would work just as hard and well for that person. If I was injured And a gay person helped me I would thank that person. And i would help that person too. I know There are several people in every town and city that a gay Or will become gay. They deserve to live there life and if they choose to change fine if not fine. But As I keep saying It does not have to become that every person has to agree with the life style. Many you would not know they were gay until they told you . And then some just throw it in your face. Used to be able to say the lords prayer in schools pledge alligence to the flag. Then liberal people thought it was wrong to do that Used to be able to know most your neighbors and trust them. Turning the other way Is not allways right. Our flag is freedom. Our country believed in god Our soldiers die for our freedom. You can thank a country like America for giving up certion rights so others can live in peace. But you can not keep pushing those so called rights to make other have to change there belief Yes I agree race issues are very wrong. Because all people share the same genatic make up. So all people are the same Just have different colored skin. In America wouldnt it be better to say I am an American In stead I am A white American Black. Red yellow. We are Americans The most versitle country in the world. But we still think in race and color. Wrong we are strong because we shared this land with all who came here to live and have a better life. Thats today I believe in this.  But  do I have to believe And support What I feel is wrong.if I do then America has lost all hope


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Sex with a person other then man and woman Is a sin. That simple. No one can say its right. Liberal thinking is fine force that on some one its wrong.....


Christians never force their beliefs on anyone do they? LMAO No, that would be wrong and hypocritical wouldn't it? 



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Far as I know it takes a gay person to make another gay person. Some say they were born gay, Was they It sounds better to tell that.


WTF? You do know that two men/women can't reproduce independantly of each other...right? What? Do you think there's some secret gay-cloning factory in Switzerland or something? LMAO. Contrary to the facist hate-mongering rhetoric you've obviously been lapping up, the majority of homosexuals do not choose to be that way. No more than you _choose_ to be heterosexual. Homosexuality is prevalent throughout the entire animal kingdom....it happens. Get over it. You know, at one time, not that long ago actually, many Americans were taught that black people were animals and actually had tails. The idea that black people have tails is no more a fact than homosexuals choosing their sexuality. 



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Many states have laws on the books that say it is a crime for certion sexual acts. Making what most gays do illegal. So is that law wrong. it was made to maintain moral values.....


This is true. But...those laws also state that it is illegal to have sex in any other position than the missionary position. They also state oral sex is wrong. Have you ever participated in oral sex? Have you ever had sex in any position other than the missionary position? If so, you're just as guilty. 



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> And to try to label a person by a slandered name is to enforce there beliefs that its right. ...


Are you not labeling and treating an individual differently and 'enforcing' your beliefs on them?????



			
				Rober Lee said:
			
		

> The first people that thought it wasHid what they thought or done...


I hate to burst your bubble buddy, but up until the time of Constantine (and in some areas even later) every civilization (Greek, Roman, Egyptions, etc) not only tolerated homosexuality, but accepted it as part of every day life. Did you know the ancient Spartans of Greec were notorius homo's? It's true. Study a real history book. No one thought it was wrong until Catholism place it's iron grip on the world. They also oulawed masturbation and anything else that might stand in the way of them BREEDING themselves into more powere. It's the oldest strategy in the book for taking over anything. Outnumber everyone else. How do you do that? BREED. Even thought the Greeks accepted homosexuality, they did have a law that stated every male must be married and have children by age 30. You have to reproduce to survive, but to say that homosexuality has always been viewed as being wrong is incorrect. 



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> People can stop being gay if they choose to do so. .


Can you stop being heterosexual?


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## Cirdan (Jun 2, 2006)

I guess we are heading off topic here, but whatever did gay people ever do to be labeled as sinners and wrongdoers? It is not like they waged war on the rest of humanity or anything....

Homosexuality was quite common among the Samurai by the way.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 2, 2006)

Cirdan said:
			
		

> I guess we are heading off topic here, but whatever did gay people ever do to be labeled as sinners and wrongdoers? It is not like they waged war on the rest of humanity or anything....
> .


 
...unlike .....the Holy Roman Empire. LOL. Christian Reformation anyone?


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Looks like straight people are being put on the cross being forced to except Would you be a bigot if you did not like neo nazis. KKK adolf Hitler.
> 
> Children are influenced on what they see and read and hear.
> 
> Forcing sexual beliefs on adults and children Its plain wrong.


 
Well, neo-nazis, the KKK and Adolf Hitler have long standing track records of atrocious crimes against whole populations of people, including mass murder, torture, bigotry, slave labor, and the like.  I think this is not a fair comparison to homosexuals.  Gay people are like you and I, they are everywhere in our society.  Like you and I, they do their best to live a good life, work a job, have a family, etc.  As a general population they don't murder, torture, and the like.  Their only difference is in who they are attacted to on a sexual and emotional level.

You are correct, children are influenced by what they see and read and hear.  But that does not mean that an otherwise straight child can be turned gay.  Children can be influenced to be open minded, and accepting of those who are different from them, and not judging them based on differences in who they are.  Hopefully any literature explaining homosexuality would be educational to a child, and help that child grow into an intelligent, understanding, and compassionate adult.  But exposure to that literature or other written works will not turn a straight child gay, or vise-versa.

Nobody is forcing sexual beliefs on anyone.  All that is being put forth is that perhaps the roots of homosexuality is something that you and perhaps others have had little exposure to and little understanding of.  If you understand it for what it is, you will see that it really is nothing to be afraid of.

I have many gay friends, and I have had some very candid and open discussions with them about this very topic.  Not one of them ever indicated that their homosexuality had anything to do with making a choice.  They all knew, from the time they were very young and as far back as they can remember, that they felt an attraction to members of the same sex.  For most of them, this understanding came at an age when they were too young to even understand sexuality at all, around the age of 4 or 5.  They also knew, even at this young age, that they were different from most other people, and were different from what was expected of them.  Some of them went into the closet and tried their best to become straight, to comply with society's expectations.  Guess what?  It never works.  Eventually they all had to come out and admit who they are, or else live forever in a miserable life of denial and lies.  Nobody should have to live that way.  Everyone should be able to be true to who they are, and not have to live in fear or shame of things over which they have ABSOLUTELY NO CONTROL.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 2, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I think this is one of the great misunderstandings about homosexuality. It really is not a choice. Homosexuals do not chose to be homosexual. There are homosexual, because that is who they are, plain and simple, like it or not. If you believe in God, well then, that is how God made them.


Exactly thank you for saying and just seconding what I had said earlier just clearer then I said it.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 2, 2006)

Flying Crane: I think you misunderstood me, I simply meant that dating someone of the same sex is a choice people make that affects no one but those two people.

Robert: nice try at a grab for the top spot, but DArnold is still the number one gay hater here. Forced AIDS tests and a NAZI/homo connection puts you in a close second though.

Question for you and DA: what about the gay lifestyle don't you agree with?


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## Ping898 (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> There was no holicast for Gays. Far as I know it takes a gay person to make another gay person. Some say they were born gay, Was they It sounds better to tell that.


 
Uh....actually if you check the history books, gays were targeted by the Nazi's, it is where the pink triangle symbol that is now at times used to show gay pride comes from.  

And what I would like to know is if it takes a gay man to make another man gay....who made that first man gay?  his wife?  Or can a gay woman make a man gay?

All joking aside, back to Terry's original question, someone being gay that I train with would not affect the way I train with them.  In fact the only thing that would make me uncomfortable around a gay person is intimate details of their sex life, but quite honestly that info would make me unconfortable around a straight person too.  
I would hope nothing I do would make a gay person uncomfortable to be around me.  I would hope that at least around me, that if I only train with the person (we are not friends outside of MA) that the training would be all that matters.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

On this choosing to be gay issue or being turned gay issue.....

I was once sitting with a friend of mine at a place I use to work and there was a woman there that was a lesbian and everyone knew it, she was not hiding it, and no one really cared. But one day this friend of mine said "the only reason that she was a lesbian was because she had not been with the right man yet". I responded with "You do realize by that logic you are not gay because you have not been with the right man yet" He agreed, said he was being an idiot and that was it.

I do not think its a choice that someone sits down one day and says hmm straight or gay....let me think...... 
I don't ever remember making a choice to like females, it just was. To bring the martial arts back into the discussion.... as Bruce Lee wrote in the Tao of Jeet Kun Do... "What is, is"

It is just whatever you are born to be........


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## annie (Jun 2, 2006)

Hey Hapki68,

Actually she suffered memory loss and  doesn't remember it happening.  I guess that is the only good thing that came out of the incident.  Unfortunetly the 2 kids were not apprehended, the busy streets of P-town at night can be crazy.   We lived in Provincetown  since 88'.  I moved to brewster in 94'.


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## Carol (Jun 2, 2006)

Wow.  Suprised to see tough martial artists cringing and freaking out over OMG a gay person.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Forcing sexual beliefs on adults and children Its plain wrong. When some one said God made people that are gay. Yes God perhaps did Make Man and woman. Man and woman though turned gay Yes



By labeling what they do as a sin against God isn't that what some people are trying to do?  Or trying to remove any positive reference to this lifestyle?  Just making it out as a sin?

Basically, yes you can do it, but it's a sin against God and is evil.  But... that's not trying to force beliefs on someone...?

I can't remember ever seeing anyone try to say being Gay is right, and everyone should be that way.  Other way around on the other hand, all sorts of people think there way is the only proper way.

"Accept us and our beliefs as not being evil" is not forcing their beliefs on you.


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## Lisa (Jun 2, 2006)

*MODERATOR NOTE:

This conversation has become completely off topic.  Please return to the original topic of the thread.  

Furthermore, please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy.  Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). 

Thank you for your cooperation in this matter.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Moderator*


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## AceHBK (Jun 2, 2006)

Lisa said:
			
		

> *MODERATOR NOTE:*
> 
> *This conversation has become completely off topic. Please return to the original topic of the thread. *
> 
> ...


 
LOL...The voice of reason.
We are sooo off topic as I said earlier.

Did we even really address what Terry asked?


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## Robert Lee (Jun 2, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Flying Crane: I think you misunderstood me, I simply meant that dating someone of the same sex is a choice people make that affects no one but those two people.
> 
> Robert: nice try at a grab for the top spot, but DArnold is still the number one gay hater here. Forced AIDS tests and a NAZI/homo connection puts you in a close second though.
> 
> Question for you and DA: what about the gay lifestyle don't you agree with?


 The only thing I do not like is they same sex couple aspect Thats all. Being gay is not being human. I just can agree with that part. As a fact i just got back from a local visit with a church minister on this subject To see how he felt as well. He also has A local KENPO school. I told him about the disscusion. On thissubject And what I had said and what others have said. He stated to That he does not believe in it He feels its not a godly way. He would instruct a gay person but would also if any full contact training was to be done Make sure HIV or aids would not expose another person.And he said every body does not like every thing. We have that choice its not wrong. So I found 1 person that does agree. I am not trying to grab some spot. as a gay hater. its I dont hate you I just do not agree with what you do. As some has said lets get over it. believe your way I believe my way.  far as Rome didnt it burn down.


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## Brother John (Jun 2, 2006)

BACK ON TOPIC..........​ 


			
				terryl965 said:
			
		

> In another post a member mention about being gay and if the training is any difference, well I have been training a gay guy for over a year and until today I had no ideal he was. Does this change our regular workout no, he is a tremendous addition to our school and is loved by all, he puts more time in training and has earned respect from me over the last year, weather or not he is or is not he has become a fine individual and a valiant student. He helps with the under belts and give so much back to the school that I could never return. I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground and I personally hope he stays for a long time.
> Terry


Wether or not anyone anywhere feels that homosexuality is right or wrong, sinful or not or feels it's inborn or chosen...it doesn't matter.

The Point is: Martial Arts training/study is good for EVERYONE.

IF one of my students opens up during class and says "*HEY, I'm gay*." I'd hope it'd do no more than raise a couple of eye-brows....simply for the fact that it has _Nothing_ to do with the punches being thrown. ...and then I'd hope we'd just move on and I could ask them later to refrain from bringing up sexual, and all other non-martial arts related subjects, while in class. 
IF anyone would quit because of a Gay martial artist in the class....then they are way too shallow for my class in the first place.

Pretty much it.

Your Brother
John


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## Flying Crane (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Being gay is not being human.


 
Wow.  While you base your position on religious beliefs, you are passing huge judgement against your fellow people.  I think the teachings of Christ are dead set against that.


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## Cirdan (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Being gay is not being human.


 
Enough said


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## Carol (Jun 2, 2006)

Personally I think a good teacher can...and should...keep the class focused through nearly any kind of distraction.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 2, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Personally I think a good teacher can...and should...keep the class focused through nearly any kind of distraction.


 
I agree


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 2, 2006)

I have taught people that where gay and others I suspected where and it really did not matter to me as long as it did not interfear with what was happening on the floor of my school. If the student worked out had and paid attention to what was being taught that was all I asked.
 I may have a different out look of the people who walk onto my floor but I look on all of them as students and try not to judge them by their hairstyle ( and have i seen some wild one), their tatoos, their religion, or any thing else. they are students that it.
 Now the point was brought up about hiv testing and my answere is if everyone in class is tested and only if everyone is tested. Just because someone looks stright and clean has no bearing on their ability to have any medical problem and it is not far to demand such testing of only one part of the class.


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## Kacey (Jun 2, 2006)

Brother John said:
			
		

> BACK ON TOPIC..........​
> 
> Wether or not anyone anywhere feels that homosexuality is right or wrong, sinful or not or feels it's inborn or chosen...it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



I agree - and as I said earlier, as an instructor, it is a non-issue for me, unless, somehow, it affects training - the way having both members of a couple sniping at each other in class can affect training, for instance, or friends having an argument that they bring into class, and so on.  The genders of the people involved have nothing to do with it, only the disruption caused by them bringing a personal conflict into the dojang and allowing it to affect their training, at which point they would be asked to either leave it at the door, or exit through it.


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## terryl965 (Jun 2, 2006)

As I thought this would be a great topic, one that all of us no-matter what have a common ground in training in the Arts. I wish I have never ever brought this up.

Last thing If in any way some one gets offende by anybody I will apologies for them know, my thread my sorrow.
Terry


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## Lisa (Jun 2, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> As I thought this would be a great topic, one that all of us no-matter what have a common ground in training in the Arts. I wish I have never ever brought this up.
> 
> Last thing If in any way some one gets offende by anybody I will apologies for them know, my thread my sorrow.
> Terry



No apology necessary, Terry.  You are not responsible for others actions.

I think we should look at the person not their sexual orientation.  Like you originally said, Martial Arts can be a way for every single person to find common ground.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 2, 2006)

Having a gay instructor or student has as much bearing on their MA abilty (& therefore reason for being in the class) as their eye color. If someone is flaunting their sexuality in class (be it straight or gay) then THAT is the only issue that would need to be dealt with. If someone is coming onto someone in an unwelcome manner, THAT is the issue to deal with. The sexual preference of the person isn't the issue.


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## Makalakumu (Jun 2, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> If someone is flaunting their sexuality in class (be it straight or gay) then THAT is the only issue that would need to be dealt with. If someone is coming onto someone in an unwelcome manner, THAT is the issue to deal with.


 
Whether you are gay or straight, THAT is sexual harrassment.  A well run dojo should have policies in place that objectively deal with this with *all* people.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 2, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Personally I think a good teacher can...and should...keep the class focused through nearly any kind of distraction.


I couldn't agree more.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Whether you are gay or straight, THAT is sexual harrassment. A well run dojo should have policies in place that objectively deal with this with *all* people.


Again I agree totally with that.


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## IcemanSK (Jun 2, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Whether you are gay or straight, THAT is sexual harrassment. A well run dojo should have policies in place that objectively deal with this with *all* people.


 
Yes! Exactly.


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## tkd_jen (Jun 2, 2006)

We have a gay guy that trains with us. The other not gay guys do not act any differently toward him, they don't shy away from him as a training partner. He shows up, works hard, that's it, enough for us.


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## DeLamar.J (Jun 2, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> In another post a member mention about being gay and if the training is any difference, well I have been training a gay guy for over a year and until today I had no ideal he was. Does this change our regular workout no, he is a tremendous addition to our school and is loved by all, he puts more time in training and has earned respect from me over the last year, weather or not he is or is not he has become a fine individual and a valiant student. He helps with the under belts and give so much back to the school that I could never return. I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground and I personally hope he stays for a long time.
> Terry


I feel that a persons sexual preference should not be impacting other peoples opinions of them, but unforntunately it does. Most people have this need to lable everything, which keeps them from enjoying variety, the spice of life.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 2, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Being gay is not being human.



This has got to be the most bigoted, ignorant, and flat out insulting statement I have read on a forum in a while, and I have read some excellent examples of cranial-rectal inversion.

Please, change that to "Being black is not being human." or "Being jewish is not being human.", and see just how much grief you will take as a result.

Being "Gay" shouldn't matter, any more than race, creed, or the number of toes one has when training. I have no problems training with any of them. A shame more schools and instructors aren't as accepting as an opinionated jackass such as myself, and instead continue to promote antiquated dogma founded on disinformation, miseducation and simply bigotry.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Jun 2, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> In another post a member mention about being gay and if the training is any difference, well I have been training a gay guy for over a year and until today I had no ideal he was. Does this change our regular workout no, he is a tremendous addition to our school and is loved by all, he puts more time in training and has earned respect from me over the last year, weather or not he is or is not he has become a fine individual and a valiant student. He helps with the under belts and give so much back to the school that I could never return. I believe Martial Arts is a way for every single person to have a common ground and I personally hope he stays for a long time.
> Terry



Sorry about the previous post. It annoyed me.
Looking at the OP, I can answer.

"Does this change your regular workout"?
No.  No more than it would if I found out they were Polish, Jewish or Klingon.
(Ok, maybe if he was Klingon it would, but only because he might carry more blades than me.)

A work out is a work out. You share good techniques, you work up a sweat, you take proper precautions for safety. 

"What about aids?"
Well, what about it? What about Hepatitis? That's more likely.
Ring Worm? More likely.


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## Robert Lee (Jun 2, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> This has got to be the most bigoted, ignorant, and flat out insulting statement I have read on a forum in a while, and I have read some excellent examples of cranial-rectal inversion.
> 
> Please, change that to "Being black is not being human." or "Being jewish is not being human.", and see just how much grief you will take as a result.
> 
> Being "Gay" shouldn't matter, any more than race, creed, or the number of toes one has when training. I have no problems training with any of them. A shame more schools and instructors aren't as accepting as an opinionated jackass such as myself, and instead continue to promote antiquated dogma founded on disinformation, miseducation and simply bigotry.


   That statement has been taken the wrong way. It is meant to mean Being gay does not mean you are not human It said being gay is not being human. Its not its just being gay. every person is a human being gay or not ThatsNot anyway towards a belief I would ever Believe. I should have read over that post befor I posted it. I just came back and saw how it read out of context. Like I said it was meant to show A gay person is still a person. And I want to set this straight I never meant for that to be taken like it has. . Now back to the thread. Its more in line now And its been said now that in a class basicly there are people not race not sexual preferance. Not faith. Its work out time. You train and Go on from there. Leave other things at the door. contact training Is my concern on safe training. I am not so dumb that I do not know That there a gay people in all sorts of lifes aspects and if one trains M/A it there right. I have had to fight the race issues in class years ago.   That took some talking trying to make students  Relize there is No color no different race I had several problem youths in A class and they were Brought up by there parents to think bad about other races. They told me this It took about 3 weeks to turn it around. I hope this clears up that I do see every person as part of the human race being anything different does not mean you are not human. We all live on this earth And I will teach any body As long as they show me I should teach them. I try to hand pick all my students And try to work with each and every one of them. To me a person is not more money to pay the bills when they come in and want to perhaps join the class. I want to know if they are ready for this type of training . Let them know there will be a time later where the contact level goes up. And i am just a guide that offers a way down  a path that they have to learn well enough to walk alone. I work for them if I take them as a student. They hired me to help them train. I did not hire them. So I interview them And go from there An instructor works for the students. I hope mine get better then myself. and I never talk of out side related issues that put down other people. I should have never done this thread posting because it voiced aginst what some people live that do not bring harm to others. But I still think its wrong But It agin is not a hate or nothing like that issue. I would not try to tell any gay person what they do is wrong That would be forceing my belief on them. Its there personal life not mine.


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## Brother John (Jun 3, 2006)

tkd_jen said:
			
		

> We have a gay guy that trains with us. The other not gay guys do not act any differently toward him, they don't shy away from him as a training partner. He shows up, works hard, that's it, enough for us.



I may not be understanding your right Jen, or maybe you mis-typed... but...

OK
You have one Gay Guy that trains with you, and the Other Gay Guys don't act any differently toward him???
Is your school predominantly homosexual??

Your Brother
John


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## Cirdan (Jun 3, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I have had to fight the race issues in class years ago. That took some talking trying to make students Relize there is No color no different race I had several problem youths in A class and they were Brought up by there parents to think bad about other races. They told me this It took about 3 weeks to turn it around.


 
So it is ok in the Dojo to force the view that there is no different race on the students? Why stop there?
(edit) or did you mean you only teach them to respect each other in the dojo?
How is "thinking bad" about other races any different from viewing gay people as sinners anyway?


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## Kacey (Jun 3, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> That statement has been taken the wrong way. It is meant to mean Being gay does not mean you are not human It said being gay is not being human. Its not its just being gay. every person is a human being gay or not ThatsNot anyway towards a belief I would ever Believe. I should have read over that post befor I posted it. I just came back and saw how it read out of context. Like I said it was meant to show A gay person is still a person. And I want to set this straight I never meant for that to be taken like it has.


You're right - you should have reread it.  However, while I, for myself, appreciate your statement that you did not proof your post sufficiently, I found the statement you refer to to be in keeping with the general attitude you have demonstrated.



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Now back to the thread. Its more in line now And its been said now that in a class basicly there are people not race not sexual preferance. Not faith. Its work out time. You train and Go on from there. Leave other things at the door. contact training Is my concern on safe training.



A concern for the safety of your students in training is a good thing; however, basing that concern on inaccurate information (such as your apparent assumption that any random gay person who comes in has HIV/AIDS) demonstrates ignorance, at best, and blind prejudice at worst.  Should you be concerned about the possibility of blood-borne disease?  To an extent.  If so, you should take precautions - but to catch HIV/AIDS from contact with blood, it has to enter your system in some fashion - injection, ingestion, or absorbtion through an open wound.  I doubt any of your students would suck up spilled blood to inject into others, and I likewise doubt they're going to be licking up other people's blood and swallowing it (at least, I sincerely hope not!); that just leaves open, bleeding wounds that make contact with other open, bleeding wounds, left untreated.  Are you saying that your class is so bloody that you have 2 students, at the same time, bleeding uncontrollably into each others' bloody wounds?  If so, I sincerely hope that you, or someone else there during every class, has first aid training - and if not, someone had better get it really quickly... which will, by the way, lift some of your concerns, as any decent first aid class from the Red Cross or similar agency will clear up many of your misconceptions about how blood-borne illness are transmitted.



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> I am not so dumb that I do not know That there a gay people in all sorts of lifes aspects and if one trains M/A it there right. I have had to fight the race issues in class years ago.   That took some talking trying to make students  Relize there is No color no different race I had several problem youths in A class and they were Brought up by there parents to think bad about other races. They told me this It took about 3 weeks to turn it around. I hope this clears up that I do see every person as part of the human race being anything different does not mean you are not human.



So.... it's not okay to be racist, but it's okay to be homophobic?  Are you teaching your students that, too?



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> We all live on this earth And I will teach any body As long as they show me I should teach them. I try to hand pick all my students And try to work with each and every one of them.



What criteria do you use to 'hand pick' your students?  What do you look for?  What would cause you to reject a student?  And if you think a student is homosexual, what would you do?  Does it matter if the homosexual is male or female?



			
				Robert Lee said:
			
		

> To me a person is not more money to pay the bills when they come in and want to perhaps join the class. I want to know if they are ready for this type of training . Let them know there will be a time later where the contact level goes up. And i am just a guide that offers a way down  a path that they have to learn well enough to walk alone. I work for them if I take them as a student. They hired me to help them train. I did not hire them. So I interview them And go from there An instructor works for the students. I hope mine get better then myself. and I never talk of out side related issues that put down other people. I should have never done this thread posting because it voiced aginst what some people live that do not bring harm to others. But I still think its wrong But It agin is not a hate or nothing like that issue. I would not try to tell any gay person what they do is wrong That would be forceing my belief on them. Its there personal life not mine.



The attitude you state here is a good one... except for the attitude you stated when you asked this question in the first place.  For your own sake, as well as your students' sake, you need to take a class in first aid, and get rational, objective information about the risk levels and transmission methods of common diseases.  If you are truly concerned about yourself or your students contracting HIV/AIDS, then you need to properly understand the risks and ways to reduce them - not ways to single out students because they are members of a group that are at a higher risk for the illness in question.  Simply because a person is homosexual does not mean that they have HIV/AIDS; increased risk does not mean a guarantee.  But if you truly believe that "I would not try to tell any gay person what they do is wrong" then you cannot treat those students any differently than any other student; otherwise, you are doing just that.


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## celtic_crippler (Jun 3, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> That statement has been taken the wrong way. It is meant to mean Being gay does not mean you are not human It said being gay is not being human. Its not its just being gay.


 
Make up your mind already! LMAO. Are they human or not? WTF?!?!? Dude, you should stop while you're behind. 

Personally, I would love to train with a Klingon 'cause they're so hardcore. That would be cool. Even if it was a gay Klingon! LOL.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Jun 3, 2006)

For the straight guys: Would you train at a predominatley gay school, and how do you think it would affect training?


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## Makalakumu (Jun 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> For the straight guys: Would you train at a predominatley gay school, and how do you think it would affect training?


 
If they were doing something that I was interested in, then I would train with them.  Then, afterward, I'd probably go out for a beer...


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## AceHBK (Jun 3, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> So.... it's not okay to be racist, but it's okay to be homophobic? Are you teaching your students that, too?
> 
> Does it matter if the homosexual is male or female?


 
In todays society funny thing is, that is true.  It isnt ok to be racist but it is ok to be homophobic.  A lot of men and women are this way.

In the world today homosexuality is a double standard.  People are more willing to accept a lesbian than they are to accept a gay man.  Does it make it right, no.  Is that how things usually work b/c of the double standard? Yes.


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## michaeledward (Jun 3, 2006)

Robert Lee said:
			
		

> Being gay is not being human.


 
What species of animal life do you think a person with homosexual tendencies belongs to then? 

And whether you can find validation for your own opinions does not change the biology of the planet. 

You are entitled to your opinions. I find your opinions offensive, repressive, morally wrong, ethically wrong and reprehensible. 

When people wanted to stone the prostitute to death, as I recall, Jesus turned them away with his discomfort of their opinions. I see no reason why his reaction toward your beliefs would be any different.


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## AceHBK (Jun 3, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> For the straight guys: Would you train at a predominatley gay school, and how do you think it would affect training?


 
Im not even gonna lie.  Heck no.  I wouldnt feel comfortable.  We all do things and hang around people who are somewhat like us, share the same views, etc.  I wouldnt feel comfortable at all and wouldnt train there.

I wont make any apologies about this one.  I refuse to say yes just to seem politically correct in this thread knowing I wouldnt if that situation came up.


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## Lisa (Jun 3, 2006)

*Thread locked pending admin review.

Lisa Deneka
MT Senior Mod*


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