# Physical strength in Tai Ji



## liangzhicheng (Sep 10, 2003)

Here's a hypothetical situation: two proponents of Tai Ji that are equal in skill.  However, one of them is larger, and physically has more strength.  If they fought, would they be even regardless of strength and size, or would the bigger and stronger person win?


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## pknox (Sep 10, 2003)

I'm not very familiar with Tai Chi, but in every other art I've seen or practiced, when the above scenario comes up, the stronger person usually wins.


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## Cruentus (Sep 10, 2003)

Push Hands, or fight.

With a fight, anything can happend so it is impossible to say.

Push hands...I don't know enough about it, but it would seem to me that the "heavier" person would most likely win. I am ill informed, though, so I could be wrong.


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## pete (Sep 10, 2003)

the question says equal skill, but does not indicate the level of skill.  if they are both at a relatively inexperienced level of skill, the larger stronger opponent may have an advantage, however may also be slower thus, at a disadvantage.

at more advanced levels, its a draw, because while the larger opponent can apply greater force, the smaller opponent is trained to relax, yield, and transfer that force right back in return.  But... the larger opponent is also advanced, and would know what the smaller one would do, therefore would refrain from using brute force.  Skill becomes the great equalizer.


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## Cruentus (Sep 10, 2003)

Good point!


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## someguy (Oct 23, 2003)

Its up to luck then or fate or what ever else there is


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## 7starmantis (Oct 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pete _
> *the question says equal skill, but does not indicate the level of skill.  if they are both at a relatively inexperienced level of skill, the larger stronger opponent may have an advantage, however may also be slower thus, at a disadvantage.
> 
> at more advanced levels, its a draw, because while the larger opponent can apply greater force, the smaller opponent is trained to relax, yield, and transfer that force right back in return.  But... the larger opponent is also advanced, and would know what the smaller one would do, therefore would refrain from using brute force.  Skill becomes the great equalizer. *



I agree with this, they are both of equal skill, so at a small skill level, the heavier guy would probably over power the smaller one, but at a high skill level, they are equal, so they both understand being rooted and disolving. 
But two of high skill would probably not participate in a fight to see who would win.  

7sm


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 23, 2003)

Since Tai Chi has absolutely nothing to do with fighting...the question is moot.


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## pknox (Oct 23, 2003)

(handing kevlar vest to Old Fat Kenpoka) here, you might need this...


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 23, 2003)

Hey, if I can defend myself against Kenpoists who claim they don't need to grapple, I can defend myself agains Tai Chi-ists who claim to fight.


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## pete (Oct 24, 2003)

and neither has anything to do with Fighting, and both have everything to do with Grappling... And anyone who says otherwise is wrong, says Me.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 24, 2003)

A better question would  be who would win in a fight:  a 150lb male Tai Chi instructor or a 120lb female Pilates instructor.  The answer is the Pilates instructor.  Her tighter buns would enable her to deliver more power to kicks and strikes.


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## pete (Oct 24, 2003)

i'd rather see the the pilates instructor go at it with a big manly  BJJ'er. :rofl:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 24, 2003)

A manly BJJer would never think of trying to pass her guard...


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## Taiji fan (Oct 24, 2003)

> A manly BJJer would never think of trying to pass her guard...


  you guys.............sad or what :boing1: :rofl:


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## 7starmantis (Oct 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Since Tai Chi has absolutely nothing to do with fighting...the question is moot. *



What exactly would be your reason for saying something like that? I mean besides starting a fight?

Your comments seem a little disrespectful to those who practice taiji as a MA, aren't they? Would you want the same comments made about your system or you ?

7sm


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## lhommedieu (Oct 25, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka - are you trolling?

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Oct 25, 2003)

OFK is famous for "stirring the pot".
Anyone who is offended, take a breath and think for a minute.
Is anything anyone says on this or any other forum going to stop you from practicing an art which you enjoy and in which you find value?  Of course not.  
Relax.  If you agree with him or me or anyone else, cool.  If not, also cool.  In the end, it's just words on a screen.  The only value those words have is that which you give to them.  I practice both Kenpo and Taijiquan, and appreciate the martial and non-martial aspects of both.  Nothing I've read so far changes that.  
That is, as always, just my opinion. :asian:


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## lhommedieu (Oct 25, 2003)

Randy,

I wasn't offended - I don't even practice Tai Qi Quan.  I'm just surprised that someone could make that kind of statement.  Anyone who's ever crossed hands with the right kind of Tai Qi teacher wouldn't bother to "stir the pot" in such a manner.   That's why I asked out loud whether OFK was "trolling," i.e., trying to liven things up a bit.

Yes, we all know that a large percentage of "Tai Chi" is "new age" or whatever, and has limited value for fighting - it's the remainder to which you should pay attention.    

Likewise, I've practiced Kajukenbo and Xing Yi Quan - they're both the same, given the right attitude and training.

Actually, your right:  it's kinda silly even to respond to this...

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## 7starmantis (Oct 26, 2003)

I'm not offended by his posting, nor do I think it will stop anyone from practicing taiji. I simply think that this is a martial arts forum based on respect and acceptance. I don't see how his comments fit into either of those adjectives.
If he is not trolling, and truly believes his own words, we could have a good respectful conversation about it.

7sm


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## pete (Oct 26, 2003)

> I practice both Kenpo and Taijiquan, and appreciate the martial and non-martial aspects of both



Randy, what style of Kenpo do you practice? have you been able to use concepts from one to improve your execution of the other?  I practice both arts as well and am constantly applying Tai Chi principles to improve my Kenpo in terms of posture and balance, and to maximize technique application.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Oct 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by pete _
> *Randy, what style of Kenpo do you practice? have you been able to use concepts from one to improve your execution of the other?  I practice both arts as well and am constantly applying Tai Chi principles to improve my Kenpo in terms of posture and balance, and to maximize technique application. *


Pete,
I practice Chinese Kenpo.  I originally took up Taijiquan in order to help rehab a shoulder injury.  Since then, I have come to enjoy Taijiquan for its own sake (rather than just a means to get back to Kenpo).  I would say that the main thing which I have gained from Taiji as relates to my Kenpo practice is greater awareness.  Not of my surroundings, but of my internal environment.  I am more aware of my balance, body alignment, emptyness and fullness, and the importance of the kua in power generation.  I realize that all of these are already present in Kenpo, but my Taiji practice has underscored their importance in ways that might not have been apparant to me otherwise.
On the flip side, my Kenpo habits tend to get in the way of my Taijiquan.  Even moving slowly, I tend to unconsciously put some "pop" on my techniques (I try to claim I'm practicing fajin, but fortunately my instructor has a good sense of when I'm BS-ing).  I also have a habit of going into a cat stance in places where I should go into a seven stars (or heel) stance.  On the other hand, my Kenpo background lets me see applications to the Taijiquan techniques which my instructor hadn't considered.
Thanks for asking, and good luck in your practice.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Oct 27, 2003)

Yes, I am stirring the pot.  Am I trolling?  Many will say so.  

What is my motivation?  a dose of reality.   This thread asked a silly hypothetical question about how a hypothetical fight would go.  Think about the origninal quesiton for a moment.  I think serious TC people should be more offended by the silliness of the question than by the obnoxiousness of my answser.  

How would I feel if someone made fun of my style (Kenpo and a little BJJ, Aiki-JJ, Shotokan, Escrima)?  I would feel OK.  I would be OK because I think every system has its inherent strengths and weaknesses and we need to be realistic about what those are.  Kenpo has weaknesses (see a majority of my posts here) and so does every other style I've practiced.  Remember, no one is perfect and styles are created by people.

Tai Chi is an excellent exercise program based on martial technique.  But, if you think TC training is fight oriented, then you are doing a rare form of TC that most people have never seen.  Recognize exactly what it is you are doing.  Be proud of your learning and achievement.  But don't let your training give you a false sense of security or pride.


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## 7starmantis (Oct 27, 2003)

I can accept that, except that you said serious TC people should be more offended by the question than your obnoxious answer. As a martial artist in general, I'm never offended by any serious question, regardless of how stupid you or anyone else might think it is. It is important to help those who ask questions like that understand the truth, not be obnoxious towards them and turn them away from good training.

I agree with you that most Taiji is practiced outside of the fighting application. I've also seen 65 year old men in china who I couldn't touch with all my "realistic" full contact fighting I've done. So, I agree with you that most people have never seen true Taiji, but that doesn't mean everyone who practices taiji does so in ignorance of the fighting applications of it. The fundamentals in Taiji are the basis for many MA themselves. 

7sm


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## Taiji fan (Oct 27, 2003)

most questions on message boards are simply a method of provoking discussion......to some they may appear silly, but they get people analysing and discussion and thats fine by me.





> Tai Chi is an excellent exercise program based on martial technique. But, if you think TC training is fight oriented, then you are doing a rare form of TC that most people have never seen.


 sorry but I have to jump in here......actually taijiquan is a martial art, which has had numerous names such as cotton fist boxing....due to the nature of the training, the attention to body mechanics etc it just so happens to also be a good method of strengthening the body and improving various aspects of health.  If you have not seen taijiquan applied then I am afraid you are seriously missing out....and while there are many tai cheeee dance classes, there are still plenty of traditional Taijiquan classes teaching the full curriculum.



> Recognize exactly what it is you are doing. Be proud of your learning and achievement. But don't let your training give you a false sense of security or pride.


 that goes for every martial art.


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## 7starmantis (Dec 23, 2003)

I did some push hands this weekend, and I have to tell you, Tai Chi is deffinatly a martial art.
I would risk fire attacks by saying Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art. Its principles are used in so many martial arts, its at the heart of all self defense.

7sm


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## Taiji fan (Dec 25, 2003)

> I would risk fire attacks by saying Tai Chi is the ultimate martial art. Its principles are used in so many martial arts, its at the heart of all self defense.


 :flame: ha ha only kidding...they don't call it the great ultimate for nothing.


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## dane123 (Dec 28, 2003)

This thread is interesting, especially how the subject has changed from the original question regarding strength in Tai Chi to defending one's choice of martial art. That is definitely not the martial way.

Regarding the original question, equal skill would be based on how and why you practice Tai Chi. You can practice it for health, meditative movement, fun, or to advance to the combat stage of Tai Chi training--or a bit of all. The hypothetical situation would probably have to be 2 people who have equal skill in push hands and Tai Chi applications; although, "skill" is very subjective and depends on many factors. Too many to answer this question with one simple answer. 

In reference to the comment regarding Tai Chi having nothing to do with combat is inaccurate. All forms of Tai Chi have applications (sometimes several) for each move. The study of applications depends on the stylist's goals and reason for studying Tai Chi. Tai Chi also has many weapons forms. Originally the weapons forms were not designed just for practice but for fighting, combat, defense, or however you wish to describe their use. Recently I have read that Tai Chi is being studied as to how Tai Chi stylists become "stronger" or more affective as they grow older while external martial artists tend to lose some strength as they grow older.

The history of Tai Chi is fascinationg, especially regarding it's influence on all forms of external martial arts and a person's reason for study. I would suggest that anyone who is not familiar with this art talk to a Tai Chi stylist or read something about it. I also commend the Kenpo artist for studying Tai Chi. There are several external martial artists who study with me and say that Tai Chi has helped the immensely.  Sorry for the long post, but I felt that some clarification was important.


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## theneuhauser (Jan 6, 2004)

quote:There are several external martial artists who study with me and say that Tai Chi has helped the immensely. 




one major mistake is to assume that taiji is "internal" while other styles might be "less internal" or "external" or soft or hard or whatever you want to call them. the idea of the internal martial arts is a western invention to help simplify some of the more intricate differences between certain arts. 

the goal of taiji is the same as all other martial arts, mastery of yourself and your environment.


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 20, 2004)

I grapple all the time for the last 10 years! I LOVE GRAPPLING! I think it lets us practice being 'neutral' and learn how to create diviations in good posture and then submissions just pop up everywhere!!! woohoo! 

I practice standing forms really slow to understand mechanics. Just like I do grappling drills/subs/whatever. I practice them fast to understand velocity and momentum physics. Every 'form' has it's place. In all ranges!  

Every forms function yeilds results when put inside the forms 'agreement box'. With something like pushhands lets relate what it exercises to a more 'flexible' agreement... like Fighting. 

Even in the full context of moving and alternating footwork, transitionaing push hands into 'free form' pushhands, etc... it isn't 'fighting' that your doing. Your working together to polish skill. It's like a mirror, but all range fighting is different. 

Push hands is not fighting, pushhands traces some effective routes that the hips use WHILE fighting, or moving in general, but Push hands is not fighting.

Fighting maybe CLOSER to Lop Sao or Sticky Hands of wing chun, but that is still not fighting. 

Ultimately we all train inside a bubble of security until we get in the trench with someone we trust to drop some bombs and we can see what works and what doesn't. If I can shrink the mechanics of push hands into an armdrag, or extend it into a jab hook and cross combo... i think taiji must be good for something... cuz I know boxing isn't for everyone. 

Two guys of high skill I think could tell who would win simply by touching hands though! I stick to that. But I think every tai ji guy should have a grappler pick up a single and tree top him a couple times just for good measure... but hey, that's me. <wink>

-Dave in Oregon


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 20, 2004)

PS- Equal high level skill the smaller guy has less mass presenting a small center of gravity AND the bigger guy won't be able to use his 'weight' against that center as it ill be equally used against him. 

But would the little guy win? Everyone wants the little guy to win... might be a draw I don't know...

Dave


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## chee (Jul 21, 2004)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> ...but at a high skill level, they are equal, so they both understand being rooted and disolving.
> But two of high skill would probably not participate in a fight to see who would win.
> 
> 7sm


I agree with this completely. However, I feel that (at the higher skill level) the smaller opponent has the advantage if the larger opponent is much larger than he. I feel the smaller one would have more speed and if he can gain an advantage for only one moment, he could use the redirected energy from the larger, heavier guy using it against himself so it would be more of an impact combined with his own. Also I feel it's harder to fight someone much smaller than yourself. That is, if both is of equal, higher skill.

Then again, two highly skilled Taiji master would just look at each other - probably waiting for the other to move first. Afterall it's a defensive art, right? So, both would never have fought at all!


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## mfjkd (Aug 23, 2004)

What about him ? :uhyeah:


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## vampyre_rat (Aug 31, 2004)

If you use physical (li) strength to win then you are not using taiji.

As the level of skill increases, physical factors (weight, strength, speed, etc) become less and less important. As such the two people of high level ability would probably come to a standstill.

I also think that there is a confusion about taiji being a yin/defensive art.

It is a yin-yang art. It balances the two harmoneously, hence the name. This means that a taiji player _could_ initialise the attack.

What's with the guy on the tracks? Does he practice taiji? Is he going to attack the train?


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## chee (Aug 31, 2004)

Yes, I agree. But actually I believe most post here regard "attack" as in an unprovoked aggression. When a negative energy is coming at you and you redirect that energy and send it back at them. That _is_ an attack by you.


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## vampyre_rat (Sep 1, 2004)

There are times when the nature of the incoming force is non-physical, it could be a threat to your loved ones or your life and you have to get mean.  Then you'd start the confrontation.  Probably by initiating a feint to draw the opponent out so that you can read their physical reactions.

But it is true that if the two 'tai chi masters' squared off against each other and they had both cultivated their spirit as well as their skill, then they'd agree not to fight and go and have a nice cup of tea and discuss the weather!


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