# boys convected of torture



## tshadowchaser (Jan 24, 2010)

Boys, 10 and 11, jailed for torture

what is the world comeing to with this happening at such  young ages
what the heck kind of upbringing did they have


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## seasoned (Jan 24, 2010)

With many road signs to read, from earlier incidents, it is sad that it took this last and vicious act to put an end to it. The thing that stands out is the fact it was two of them. One slipping through the crack is one thing, but to have an accomplice, is the scariest part. Although there are many people to blame, I feel that ultimately the parents should take the responsibility for either not seeing or totally ignoring behavior leading up to this horrendous crime,


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## Flea (Jan 24, 2010)

I saw another article where the parents had been giving them pot and showing them porn and slasher flicks for years.

It's because of cases like this that I'm ambivalent about capital punishment.  I used to be against it until I saw an interview with Tommy Lynn Sells.  Now?  There are some people who simply have nothing to contribute to the human community, and have proven so very clearly.  Even if they are children, they may have already reached the point it took Sells to reach by young adulthood.  I'm not saying we should kill these kids, but ... could they possibly be turned around?  When animals turn vicious they're put down.  This case goes way beyond any animal attack story I've ever encountered.

Anyway, I'd humbly suggest that his case be moved to Horror Stories, for it certainly is one.


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## Tez3 (Jan 24, 2010)

Flea said:


> I saw another article where the parents had been giving them pot and showing them porn and slasher flicks for years.
> 
> It's because of cases like this that I'm ambivalent about capital punishment. I used to be against it until I saw an interview with Tommy Lynn Sells. Now? There are some people who simply have nothing to contribute to the human community, and have proven so very clearly. Even if they are children, they may have already reached the point it took Sells to reach by young adulthood. I'm not saying we should kill these kids, but ... could they possibly be turned around? When animals turn vicious they're put down. This case goes way beyond any animal attack story I've ever encountered.
> 
> Anyway, I'd humbly suggest that his case be moved to Horror Stories, for it certainly is one.


 
Flea, I agree with you that this should be moved to Horror Stories.

 Many of us here have been following this story with heavy hearts since the story broke last year. It is impossibly horrific.
This is an interview with the parents of the boys who were almost killed, it makes very hard reading I warn you.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1245601/Name-Devil-Boys-We-let-hide.html


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## Flea (Jan 24, 2010)

I think I'll pass on reading the article.  But can you tell me how the victims are recovering?  I hope they aren't getting too much press coverage because they've gone through enough as it is.  But is there any word?


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## Sukerkin (Jan 24, 2010)

I have to say, *Flea* that I agree with you utterly with regard to capital punishment.  The only sticking I have with it's use is that the certainty of proof is very often lacking and it is hard to 'un-execute' someone if it turns out that a miscarriage of justice has occurred.

In this case, it is not in the slightest doubt where the guilt lies and, to me, the age of the perpetrators garners them no advantage.  I cannot conceive that they can be helped to attain a more 'societally safe' state and if they are ever released I would be totally unsurprised if they committed further vile acts of inhumanity.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 24, 2010)

Moved.


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## Flea (Jan 24, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I have to say, *Flea* that I agree with you utterly with regard to capital punishment.  The only sticking I have with it's use is that the certainty of proof is very often lacking and it is hard to 'un-execute' someone if it turns out that a miscarriage of justice has occurred.
> 
> In this case, it is not in the slightest doubt where the guilt lies and, to me, the age of the perpetrators garners them no advantage.  I cannot conceive that they can be helped to attain a more 'societally safe' state and if they are ever released I would be totally unsurprised if they committed further vile acts of inhumanity.



Thank  you.  At the risk of hijacking the thread, I'll clarify my position by saying that I don't think capital punishment should be used as retaliation.  (No punishment will ever un-torture these two victims, after all.)  It should only be a means of prevention, so that the worst of the worst of the worst have no likelihood of getting back out into the population to do more harm.  I struggle with the idea of someone having _nothing_ to offer humanity; even Sells does interviews with forensic psychiatrists as a research subject.

And I'm not comfortable with the inevitable "shadow of a doubt" either.  Some day DNA evidence will be dismissed as crude as well, and it may be leading to some wrongful convictions due to factors we can't know about today.  It's all relative.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 24, 2010)

If these perps had been adults, I would have wanted to see the death penalty (although this isn't possible in England, of course). Given that they're kids, it isn't moral to impose capital punishment, because one of the central roles of a civilized society is the protection of children. Even bad ones.

The parents made these children. They created them. They physically abused them, neglected them, drugged them, and exposed them to years of sexualized violence. These boys are *very, very* angry. That is the over-riding emotion coming through in these attacks. When feelings of anger and powerlessness are combined within a person, they come out in violent acts against weaker creatures...women, children, animals, etc.

What isn't clear is if these boys have developed sociopathic personalities as a result of their abusive environment. If they have, then that is all she wrote (as we say in Texas)...*you can't rehabilitate a personality disorder*. But if these kids were acting out their anger in the only way that they had been shown how, and if they are not sociopaths, then they may be rehabilitated through years of intensive therapy.

Only time, and the attention of trained clinical psychiatrists and psychologists, will reveal whether these boys are redeemable by society. It is not a black and white situation. The only clear point in all this mess, in my opinion, is that the parents of the offenders should be in prison, for child abuse.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 24, 2010)

Flea said:


> Thank you. At the risk of hijacking the thread, I'll clarify my position by saying that I don't think capital punishment should be used as retaliation. (No punishment will ever un-torture these two victims, after all.) It should only be a means of prevention, so that the worst of the worst of the worst have no likelihood of getting back out into the population to do more harm. I struggle with the idea of someone having _nothing_ to offer humanity; even Sells does interviews with forensic psychiatrists as a research subject.
> 
> And I'm not comfortable with the inevitable "shadow of a doubt" either. Some day DNA evidence will be dismissed as crude as well, and it may be leading to some wrongful convictions due to factors we can't know about today. It's all relative.


 
In this case, of course, the boys recorded their actions on their cell phone video. The shadow of doubt has been removed. However, I am like you, in that I believe the motive for the death penalty should be removal of a danger to society, rather than punishment. Some people are just broken, and there is nothing you can do to fix them.


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## Flea (Jan 24, 2010)

Well I think these boys' lives are forfeit in any case.  I think the best they can hope for is life institutionalized, either in a prison or more likely in some kind of psych facility.  If they were released, it wouldn't surprise me to see some vigilante attempt.  

Again, I'm not calling for capital punishment in this case.  It's just an illustration of the one narrow context in which I'd find it up for consideration.  They _are_ children, in chronological terms at least.  If they're retrievable, I wish them well in their recovery.  But I'm not holding my breath.


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## teekin (Jan 25, 2010)

I agree that these boys are broken But to kill them? These are Children! Who broke them? That is where the blame lies. Ohhh I think I ranted long and hard about this on another thread so I won't rant here but to say a child of 12 or 13 is utterly and irretreivabbly  lost I do not believe. Some monsters are born and some are made it's true but I'd try long and hard to see if these boys are salvagable. Put the parents to death.
lori


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## Tez3 (Jan 25, 2010)

The parents of the victims say their sons are recovering physically but are taking longer to recover mentally, they still have nightmares and are scared that the boys will come back for them. The father of one of the boys who committed these acts lives in the same village as them.
The victims were subjected to beatings, sexual abuse, made to do things that you would have thought children didn't even know about let alone make other children do and awful cruelty.One of the boys was left on the verge of death, a fact he was convinced of himself. It will haunt the victims all their lives however good the counselling is they receive.

In the Bulger case the boys who committed the crime are out in the world somewhere, perhaps in Australia we've heard, under new names living new lives. The boys here *will be released in five years*, again with new names an starting a new life. Reading of their upbringing I'm torn between pity for them and wanting to tear them apart for what they did. No one could emerge undamaged from what their parents subjected them to, they were drugged when their mother wanted a quiet night, they watched porn and violent films from being little, beaten themselves they also watched their mother being beaten.

I don't think hanging young boys is going to be an answer to the problem however heinous their crimes, prosecuting the parents might be a start though. Gathering the evidence is going to be hard now.   

the boys who coimmitted these crimes won't be institutionised or kept in prison for any length of time, there is only five years if that to try and turn them around, can it be done or is the damage too deep seated and they will carry on their horrendous crimes when released is something no one knows but two other small boys are terrified and won't recover because they are thinking all the time that when five years is up they are going to be killed horribly.


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## teekin (Jan 25, 2010)

Well Tez you are correct. The system, all systems that don't just outright kill the kids, have no plans to deal with children who are this damaged. You are right by saying there is no way to turn these boys around in 5 years. What are we to do with them? As far as I can see the Only solution is to keep them locked up in a juvvy ward for the criminally insane with no instant parole.
lori


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Jan 25, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The boys here *will be released in five years*, again with new names an starting a new life.
> 
> the boys who coimmitted these crimes won't be institutionised or kept in prison for any length of time, there is only five years if that to try and turn them around, can it be done or is the damage too deep seated and they will carry on their horrendous crimes when released is something no one knows but two other small boys are terrified and won't recover because they are thinking all the time that when five years is up they are going to be killed horribly.


 
I was confused by something in that article, Tez...the father of one of the victims said that even though the sentence was 5 years, he was assured by the police that the boys would actually be held for much longer. The conclusion I reached was that they would come up for review in 5 years, and their "progress" would be evaluated, and they would either be released or kept in custody for another length of treatment. Presumably these boys will have to demonstrate their "sanity"...or remorse...or whatever. But it seemed strange to me that the father would be reassured, when it seems that the process of evaluation and release could go horribly wrong. What do you think is the true outlook on this?


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