# Sayoc Kali



## white mantis (Jun 12, 2004)

I had some questions about this art like is it relly all bladed weapons? what are the applications of blade on blade and blade on empty hand? and finaly were did Sayoc Kali originate from? Thank you. :asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 12, 2004)

I've been to a few Sayoc seminars and I find it very interesting. Use Search and you'll find plenty of discussions about it on this forum.


----------



## MJS (Jun 13, 2004)

Check out sayoc.com

That site should give you some good answers and insights as to what the art is like.

Mike


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 13, 2004)

I could be mistaken, but I believe Sayoc Kali was not always 'all blade, all the time'.  Some of the instructors are also fairly proficient with a whip, and I've seen others like Eric Porschen and Tuhon Ray Dionaldo demonstrate some pretty damn impressive stick skills.

Cthulhu


----------



## arnisador (Jun 13, 2004)

My understanding is that the "All Blade" approach is new with the current head of the system, and that for example the stick used to be more widely used. The whip is still taught, as I understand it.


----------



## OULobo (Jun 14, 2004)

I have little experience with the Sayoc system, but as I understand it, Chris Sayoc founded this system independent of his father Bo's system, and the systems are very different. I think the Sayoc instructors are fairly centered on the knife, although I have seen the whipwork. If I am not mistaken the stickwork and other weapons you see coming from many of the Sayoc instructors is from their previous systems, but I could be very much mistaken on this one. Palusut is an FCS guy (Dionaldo's original system) too, he might have some insight here.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 14, 2004)

Tuhan Ray Dionaldo's Bio

Ranks and Titles 

SAYOC KALI / SAYOC FIGHTING SYSTEMS
Instructor: Tuhon Christopher Sayoc 
Rank: Tuhon

MODERN ARNIS / MARPIO
Instructor: Punong Guro Dr. Remy Presas
                   Senior Master Rodillo B. Dagooc    
Rank: Lakan Antas Tatlo

MODERN ARNIS 
Instructor: Professor Remy Presas 
Rank: Lakan Isa

SAYOC FIGHTING SYSTEMS
Instructor: Grand Tuhon Baltazar "Bo" Sayoc 
Rank: Lakan Isa 

PEKITI-TIRSIA KALI / STRATEGIC KNIFE DEFENSE 
Instructor: Grand Tuhon Leo T. Gaje 
Rank: Lakan Isa 

PEKITI-TIRSIA KALI / KALI OLYMPIC COMMITTEE 
Instructor: Master Bjin Lateef Mateen 
Rank: Lakan Isa 

PAMBUAN ARNIS TULISAN 
Instructor: Ama Guro Raffy Pambuan 
Rank: Guro 

ANCIENT ARTS ACADEMY 
Instructor: Lakan Guro Eric Porschen 
Rank: Lakan Guro 

SHOTOKAN KARATE 
Instructor: Sensei Larry Stone 
Rank: Ni-Dan 

DILLMAN KARATE INSTITUTE 
Instructor: Sensei Larry Stone 
Rank: Ni-Dan 

WADO-RYU KARATE 
Instructor: Shihan Mark Cody 
Rank: Sho-Dan 

WU MING TAO CHUAN FA 
Instructor: Sifu Jim Bryan 
Rank: Black Sash 

TSUNG CHEN DO
Instructor: Grand MasterPasquale Giampietro
Rank: 1st Degree Black Belt


Experience and Accomplishments

Over 20 years experience. (Wow!! I didn't realize that I was that old.) 

Member, Latin America Grandmasters & Soke Council, Inc. 

Member, Sayoc Fighting System Demo Team under Grand Tuhon Bo Sayoc. 

Member, Kali Olympic Demo Team under Master Bjin Lateef Meteen. 

Honorary member, Kun Tao Family of Florida. 

1983-1990, nationally ranked full-contact stick fighting competitor. 

1989, Florida Games Weapons Grand Champion. 

1989, Tampa Classic Circut Weapons Grand Champion. 

1990, Tampa Classic Circut Weapons Grand Champion. 

1990, W.E.K.A.F. weapons forms, rannked #2 North America. 

1990, W.E.K.A.F. full-contact stick fighting, ranked #3 North America. 

2000, World head of Family Sokeship Council International Hall of Fame "National Instructor of the Year". 

2001, International Jiu-Jitsu Hall of Fame "Kali Master of The Year". 

Over 100 wins in local and international Martial Arts competition. 





Presently 



Co-Head of SAYOC FIGHTING SYSTEMS along with Tuhon Felix Cortes.

Founder and head of Filipino Combat Systems Organization and Martial Arts System.

Owner & Head instructor, Filipino Combat Systems Headquarters, Tampa, FL. 

President, Warrior Craft Blades. 

Cast Member, "Art of War" Martial Arts Demo Team

Official Knifemaker for The Sayoc International Group 

Official Southern U.S. Representative for Sayoc Kali/Silak. Appointed by Tuhon Christopher Sayoc. 

One of the few blade instructors to be officially endorsed by Grand Master Remy Presas. 

Teaching Flilpino Martial Arts seminars, world wide. Specializing in bladed weapons. 

An official tactical instructor for Winter Haven Hospital security personnel, Winter Haven,Florida. 

An official tactical instructor for Lake Wales Hospital security personnel, Lake Wales, Florida. 

Full Contact Weapons Association (F.C.W.A.) stick fighting and nunchaku fighting coordinator


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 14, 2004)

Cthulhu said:
			
		

> Tuhon Ray Dionaldo demonstrate some pretty damn impressive stick skills.



This is probably because of his diverse stick background prior to Sayoc training. :asian:


----------



## arnisandyz (Jun 14, 2004)

OULobo said:
			
		

> I have little experience with the Sayoc system, but as I understand it, Chris Sayoc founded this system independent of his father Bo's system, and the systems are very different. I think the Sayoc instructors are fairly centered on the knife, although I have seen the whipwork. If I am not mistaken the stickwork and other weapons you see coming from many of the Sayoc instructors is from their previous systems, but I could be very much mistaken on this one. Palusut is an FCS guy (Dionaldo's original system) too, he might have some insight here.



I don't think Tuhon Chris "founded the system independently'...he IS inherator of the Sayoc system from his father Bo Sayoc.  It is more an extention or evolvement of Sayoc Fighting Sytems.  To bring some of the original material back, Sayoc Fighting Systems which also includes stick, whip, etc. has been reintroduced into the ciriculum. Tuhon Ray's orginal training in the Sayoc system began under Grandmaster Bo Sayoc, Guro Ray "grewup" with Tuhon Chris and the Kayanan brothers.  Tuhon Ray recently did a demo where he flowed from style to style non-stop, calling out the different styles he was performing - "This is Modern Arnis...Pekiti Tirsia..Sayoc...etc  

Here is a  bold statement by a high up Sayoc Kali Tuhon (which shall remain nameless)... "Before it was all blade all the time, it was all weapon all the time....all blade all the time was a marketing gimmick because no body else was doing it at the time..."

None the less the Sayoc system is one of the best FMA knife systems I have come across, and through Tuhon Ray, most of our knife work and concepts that we do in ou group comes from this.


----------



## Cthulhu (Jun 14, 2004)

Arnisandyz beat me to it, regarding the stickwork from "Bo" Sayoc.  I believe Eric Porschen also trained with "Bo" Sayoc.

Cthulhu


----------



## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jun 15, 2004)

Hello everyone,

Great questions and answers from everyone.

Here is some more information for you:

Sayoc Kali is one, of the many components contained in the Sayoc Fighting System, as currently taught by the 5th generation inheritor of Sayoc Kali, Tuhon Christopher Sayoc Sr. 
The Sayoc Fighting System was taught from 1972-1982 was comprised of the following categories: 
1. Single stick (28"-32") 
2. Empty hands (foot works, body mechanics) 
3. Double stick (24"-32") 
4. Stick and dagger 
5. Dagger (single blade-multiple blades) 
6. Tabak-toyok (single/double) 
7. Pana (projectile in assorted sizes) 
8. Long stick (36"-50") 
9. Whip (4-12) (single/double) 
10. Staff/spear 
11. Short stick (18"-24")/tabak-maliit (single/double) 
12. Shield and stick

side note:
I had the opportunity to interview many of the senior ranks as well as Tatang Bo Sayoc, at last years Sama Sama about the development of Sayoc Kali from the Sayoc Fighting System, as well as their backgrounds etc. Bo Sayoc's interview as well as a few others appear on the Sama Sama DVD. 

If you have more specific questions, fire away!

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L. - Kayan Dalawa Guro Sayoc Kali

www.Bujinkandojo.net


----------



## white mantis (Jun 15, 2004)

Airyu@hotmail.com said:
			
		

> Hello everyone,
> 
> Great questions and answers from everyone.
> 
> ...


Just one: did the fliippiino arts invent thir blade techniques or did they derive them from another culture.:idunno:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 15, 2004)

For the FMA as a whole, the usual answer is some version of Yes--native arts, possibly Asian mainland-influenced, that were then mixed with Spanish fencing. How influential were the Spanish techniques? Opinions vary widely!

There may be a better answer for Sayoc Kali in particular.


----------



## Airyu@hotmail.com (Jun 16, 2004)

Hello again,

In all countries, there is a typical growth and development of indigenous methods of self protection. Some became more organized, systematized and eventually taught to others. As they continued to grow and develop, usually under some type of pressure, ie: warfare, dueling etc, they developed tactics that may have come from other systems and areas of the world. This is what keeps them alive and growing. There is a raging debate on how the Spanish influenced the Philippines martial growth, the answer is most likely they did, but not in the manner and time periods that most people are thinking. During the hundreds of years of conflict techniques/tactics would most likely be shared or a method developed to counter them. Not only this but with the many, many languages that were spread through the islands, Spanish became a method to help organize communication between various tribal entities. Spanish terms could easily have been adopted as a "common" manner of teaching others various Filipino arts. The Philippine archipelago, has an ancient history that is still being uncovered from discoveries in the Tabon Caves, to the Laguna Copperplate, more and more information is coming to light regarding the ancient history and culture of this region. So I would recommend you take no one person's view on this matter and begin to search out these answers for yourself.

Gumagalang
Guro Steve L.


----------



## Sun_Helmet (Jun 17, 2004)

<<Just one: did the fliippiino arts invent thir blade techniques or did they derive them from another culture.>>

Seek out the journal entries of the first Spaniards to arrive on the islands, especially those from the Legazpi Conquesta expedition and you will find that the Spanish themselves acknowledge the Filipino's blade 'arts'. So they pre-existed prior to Spanish arrival. 

The Spanish already transitioned to long weapons and firearms by the time they made any progress into the islands. This was during the mid 1500's and the majority of Spaniards came in the late 1500's and the 1600's... when war was fought with firearms and pikes... not swords. The advantage being.. a pike formation, supported by firearms will have a greater chance to defeat sword wielding attackers.

The Mongols found this out against the samurais, the Swiss knew this, the Spanish versus the French and so on.

Anyone telling you that Spanish and Filipino warriors battled sword versus  sword needs to provide documentation stating so. What you'll get is heresay, because it never happened.

One culture influenced BOTH the SPanish and the Filipinos and that is the Moors. Spain was conquered by the Moors when the sword was a primary weapon in war. Spain was under Moors for around 800 years... TWICE the time Sapin was in the Philippines.
-----

As per Sayoc Kali...  "Before it was all blade all the time, it was all weapon all the time....all blade all the time was a marketing gimmick because no body else was doing it at the time..."

Sayoc Kali began to focus and evolve the method of instructing the knife when many of their students coming into the system had stick experience already and were seeking to improve on their knife skills. Other students inquired about blade curriculums because they were not interested in stick methods (like military, empty hand fighters/grapplers etc.). As more and more heads and high level instructors from all over began to gravitate towards Sayoc, via word of mouth... Sayoc Kali was isolated from the rest of SFS to take the growth and evolvement of the blade as high as it can go. The marketing was less about trying to find a niche in the FMAs by abandoning other weapons, but taking the set circumstances and conditions of the students seeking the instruction of Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Sr. and giving them pure knife instruction. In the long run, there's some reverse technology involved, because as some students learn the knife- they also began exploring the other weapons, when previously they were not inclined to do so. Sayoc Kali has instructors and students from all walks of life, and all manners of real life experience. We have instructors with years of grappling, boxing, asian arts, military/leo tactics and also western swordsmanship (historical and sport) at very high levels. This consolidation of talented students and instructors have all contributed to evolving the knife arts under the tutelage of Tuhon Chris Sayoc, Sr.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
---------
-------
------
---


----------



## BFB (Jun 18, 2004)

_The Spanish already transitioned to long weapons and firearms by the time they made any progress into the islands. This was during the mid 1500's and the majority of Spaniards came in the late 1500's and the 1600's... when war was fought with firearms and pikes... not swords. The advantage being.. a pike formation, supported by firearms will have a greater chance to defeat sword wielding attackers.
_The Spanish not transitioned to long weapons and firearms, they used to fight with them in the european battlefields, specially the pike division called "Tercios" (hated and feared by frenchs, italians, english, ...).
_One culture influenced BOTH the SPanish and the Filipinos and that is the Moors._
It´s true, specially in the south of Spain, where during centuries lived muslim communities after the "Reconquista" (process of conquer of the muslim territories in Spain).
_Spain was conquered by the Moors when the sword was a primary weapon in war. Spain was under Moors for around 800 years..._ 
It´s false, Spain never was under a muslim total control (tha max. a 70-80% for 711-1032 aprox.). Before the XII century the different Spanish kingdoms reconquer the 70% or Spain. Excuse me Rafael but the idea of the muslim occupation thanks to a higher fighting skills is very stupid and the "cristian" fighting skills over the XV century change drastically, from sword to rapier and here comes the spanish hegemony over european fencing.
This part of Spanish history is very complicated and it´s very hard for me try to explain you in english.
Thanks.


----------



## OULobo (Jun 18, 2004)

Since we are on the subject of Sayoc Kali and there are a few well known Sayoc instructors commenting on the board, I had a question. Where did the karambit work in the Sayoc system come from? It is the only system I have seen that uses it other than Indo. silat and so. Filipino silat. I noticed that guru Dionaldo was the first to promote it in the system and he his producing the weapon now too. Did he bring it to the system and if so where did he get it from?


----------



## Sun_Helmet (Jun 18, 2004)

ME: The Spanish already transitioned to long weapons and firearms ... when war was fought with firearms and pikes... not swords. (edited for space)

BFB:
The Spanish not transitioned to long weapons and firearms, they used to fight with them in the european battlefields, specially the pike division called "Tercios" (hated and feared by frenchs, italians, english, ...).

ME:
I'm not sure you understood my phrase "long weapons"... that IS the pike division. 
History books, military manuals and also the very words of the Spanish in the Philippines DURING THAT TIME PERIOD agree with me. 

There is NO RECORD from the thousands of pages of Spanish accounts in the Philippines that state they fought sword versus sword against the Filipino natives. 

That is a MYTH.

I'd also like to add that by the end of the 1500's, Spain's methods of warfare had evolved to small teams involved in covert search and destroy missions. As Restall wrote in Seven Myths of the Spanish Conquest. There was even a book in 1599 titled, The Armed Forces and Description of the Indies by Bernardo de Vargas Machuca which is called, "The first manual on guerilla warfare ever written". This book was "advocating something that was already common practice among Spaniards in the Americas for a century" (Restall, pg. 32). Spain had abandoned linear formations hierachical units and permanent garrisons. Display violence was also mentioned to psych out the natives.

By 1537, a mathematical treatise on calculating the trajectory of shot was already in existence. By 1586, Collado provided a practical manual for the artilleryman. By the 1620's HTH combat skills in military education gave way to the study of ballistics, siege tactics, formation studies, leadership and the use of campaign mapping. By 1590's the continuous shots (volley fire) was already a documented drill for arquebusiers. One such drill involved six ranks , as one rank fired it retreated to the rear as the second rank took it's place and so on.

The Introduction letter to Legaspi from the Crown of Spain commented on the importance of arquebus drill and practice. Many in Europe were learning, repetition and familiarity bred confidence in this new weapon and form of combat. Swiss and Spanish pikemen had their own drills years prior to the emergence of the 1607 Jacob de Gheyn Dutch  drill manual for pikemen and arquebusiers (Wapenhandelinghe van Roers). This drill became a standard practice.

Military drill and formations during the 16th century used manuals such as the revised Vegetius' De Re Militari in 1585, Lipsius'1 1595 De Militia Romana, Cruso's Instructions, Bingham's Tactics of Aelian and Hexham's Principles of the art of Militare. 

The Spanish 'hollow rectangle' proved to be a successful tactic vs. the French in 1643. Eventually the pike role diminished into a support role to the arquebusier. By 1650 even Pikemen numbers as stated earlier declined and by 1705 eventually faded away. By 1647,  Puysegur's  plug bayonet displayed the use of the gun as a hybrid pike. The evolution into the ring bayonet made the pike obsolete.

"On the battlefield, Close Quarter fighting, the prime objective of the Medieval Knight gradually gave way to longer range musketry duels. In 1598 (note the early date), one English writer commented that," It is rarely seen in our days that men come often to blows as in the old times they did." 
Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, Hall.

As the gun evolved further, eventually these formations of tightly grouped soldiers advancing methodically upon the unorganized enemy suffered massive losses in infantry hundreds of years later. Volley fire weakness introduced the line formation, abandoning the psychological reassurance of a pike phalanx formation. Tightly lined formation met another tightly formed formation with both sides possessing faster loading, more powerful guns and capable of longer ranges of fire. We've all seen films or reenactments of troops falling in a hail of gunfire while they steadily advanced.

Spain's Prince Philip II (of whom the Philippines was named after) knew the importance of modern warfare, but the consequences of maintaining an effort of subjugation disproportionate to the empire's resources, overwhelmed him, his countrymen and his place in history. 

It led Spain to worse actions. One biographer states, " History has shown itself severe towards this Prince" Under his rule Spain alienated the nations in which the following centuries were to shape and inspire public opinion such as Holland, England and France. It's subjugation of the Americas, colonization of the Philippines and battles with future super powers to come. Philip was caught between the past and the future and he eventually personified the Spanish Empire's greatest triumphs, weakness and demise.
Recommended sources:
The Story of Weapons and Tactics- Wittingham
Evolution of Weapons and Warfare, Col. Dupuy
Weapons and Warfare in Renaissance Europe, Hall
War and Society in Early Modern Europe 1495- 1715, Tallett
Firepower- Hughes
Phillip II- The First Modern King, Mariejol
-----
Me:
Spain was conquered by the Moors when the sword was a primary weapon in war. Spain was under Moors for around 800 years... 

BFB:
It´s false, Spain never was under a muslim total control (tha max. a 70-80% for 711-1032 aprox.). Before the XII century the different Spanish kingdoms reconquer the 70% or Spain.

ME:
I never wrote TOTAL control. 
That's something that never happens during an invasion by a foreign power. Most historians state that the Philippines was conquered by Spain and the total land control Spain had at one time was even LESS than what you state the Moors had. In fact, the Spanish thought they conquered the Philippines by altering maps and using omission of facts as part of their history. I find it amusing that someone is calling me on a practice that Spanish historians have been doing for hundreds of years. Read Lane Poole's history of Spain. It will have descriptions of battles with swords etc against Moors. No firearms yet.


Now, even if you WERE correct... you're still talking the same amount of time that Spain was in the Philippines... that Spain was under the Moors. So if the Moors did NOT influence Spain, it would be rather smug to say that Spain influenced the Filipino's style of fighting when they didn't even fight blade vs. blade battles?
-----

BFB:
Excuse me Rafael but the idea of the muslim occupation thanks to a higher fighting skills is very stupid and the "cristian" fighting skills over the XV century change drastically, from sword to rapier and here comes the spanish hegemony over european fencing.
This part of Spanish history is very complicated and it´s very hard for me try to explain you in english.
Thanks.

Me:
Yes, that would be ' very stupid' if that is all the info you got from my comment. 
ALL history is complicated.

Christian fighting skills changed because the GUN was invented... get used to that idea becuase your sword to rapier transition theory has nothing to do with how countries fought one another in war. That's movie and fiction books. There's a romance with duelling weapons that some people have myths built in their minds that battles were fought like Zorro or the 3 Musketeers movies.

The real D'Artaghan was shot and killed in the neck during battle... so someone should have clued him in as well.

What I was writing about are battles in which Spanish and Moors did fight withOUT forearms involved . Battles the Spanish lost. In fact, there's battles where they got trounced by the Moors.

That doesn't mean it is the ONLY reason that Spain was conquered, but it does show that Spain was not exclusive in the manner of blade use. Nor were they the best in warfare with it.

Now, no soldier who does not become acquainted with the tactics of the enemy will survive.

This Spaniard quoted below was NOT very stupid:

Francisco de Sande in his report to the Crown of Spain for the Legazpi expedition dated June 8, 1577, page 337, The Colonization and Conquest of the Philippines by Spain, VIII, "A collection of important source documents related to the Legazpi expedition of 1564..." by the Filipiniana Book Guild bound in 1965. Francisco de Sande sailed in from Acapulco, Nueva Espana and his letters were to the Crown. His accounts of the aftermath of the Chinese corsair Limahong's invasion of Manila is also good reading as it was from a first hand account. de Sande's observations are of note because it came from a perspective of one who had lived in South America, Spain and the Philippines during that time. 

(CAPS are emphasized by Rafael Kayanan) : 

"The Indians of this country are not simple or foolish, nor are they frightened by anything whatever. They can be dealt with ONLY BY THE ARQUEBUSE, or by the gifts of GOLD or SILVER. If they were like those of Nueva Espana, Peru, Tierra Firme, and in other explored places where the ships of Castilla may enter, sound reasoning might have some effect. But these Indians first inquire if they must be Christians, pay money, forsake their wives, and other similar things. They kill Spaniards so boldy, that WITHOUT THE ARQUEBUSES WE COULD DO NOTHING. This was the reason that Magallanes, Sayavedra, and those who came afterward from Nueva Espana were maltreated. All those who have been killed since the coming of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi received THEIR DEATH THROUGH THE LACK OF ARQUEBUSES. The Indians have thousands of lances, daggers, shields, and other pieces of armor, with which they fight so well. They have no leaders to whom they look up. THE HAVOC CAUSED BY THE ARQUEBUSE, and their own lack of honor, make them seek refuge in flight, and give obedience to our orders."


--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
---------
-------
--------
--------
----


----------



## Sun_Helmet (Jun 18, 2004)

<<The Indians have thousands of lances, daggers, shields, and other pieces of armor, with which they fight so well. >>

This is a VERY telling piece of information. It states that the Spainiards were aware of Filipinos possessing their own types of native weapons and that they knew how to fight from the point of view of THEIR OWN SPANISH standards.

As per Spanish influence on Filipino weaponry and fighting, in 1887 The Universidad de Madrid published a catalog on Filipino Indigenous Weaponry written and researched by a Spanish scholar, Leoncio Cabrero Fernandez. This catalog collected and catalogued what Spaniards (in 1880's) believed to be NON- Spanish weaponry- weapons that were indigenous to the Philippines.

They have listed and meticulously illustrated the following weapons:
Igorrote Headaxe and Shield
Cris (Kris)
Campilanes (Kampilan)
A three pronged punyoed dart /projectile (no list name but illustrated)
Pira
Barong
Panabas
and four pages of spear and arrow tips that were ornately designed and marked...these had a very native Malay look to them.

So Spanish historians in the 1800's were aware of Filipino indigenous weaponry. (as they titled it Las Armas de los Indigenas de Filipinas).

So we can move on concerning that subject.


--Rafael--
-------
-----
-------
--------


----------



## BFB (Jun 18, 2004)

"One culture influenced BOTH the SPanish and the Filipinos and that is the Moors." It´s true but not in the way that you try to said. "Spain was conquered by the Moors when the sword was a primary weapon in war. Spain was under Moors for around 800 years... TWICE the time Sapin was in the Philippines." Analyzes the content of these phrases and explain me how you understand all the content of you second post.


"There is NO RECORD from the thousands of pages of Spanish accounts in the Philippines that state they fought sword versus sword against the Filipino natives."
I never affirm this, I only try to say that the transition to long weapons didn´t be caused by the philippino warriors in the Philippines (I understand it from your words, sorry like I said in my other post my english is not very good, I would like to see you trying to expres yourself in my language).
"I find it amusing that someone is calling me on a practice that Spanish historians have been doing for hundreds of years." I think that you are wrong with me and my intentions.
"So if the Moors did NOT influence Spain, it would be rather smug to say that Spain influenced the Filipino's style of fighting when they didn't even fight blade vs. blade battles?"
I never said nothing of this.
"Christian fighting skills changed because the GUN was invented... get used to that idea becuase your sword to rapier transition theory has nothing to do with how countries fought one another in war."
I said that this transition exist but I argue the causes.
"That doesn't mean it is the ONLY reason that Spain was conquered, but it does show that Spain was not exclusive in the manner of blade use. Nor were they the best in warfare with it."
The main reason of the conquer was the framentation of the country in little kingdoms with a lot of internal problems and the muslim were a united imperium(califato Omeya) with a higher culture (the muslins enter in Spain in a really dark age).
"There's a romance with duelling weapons that some people have myths built in their minds that battles were fought like Zorro or the 3 Musketeers movies."
Yes, I never said something similar. I think that you are more interested in speak about the hegemony of your blade fighting skills, I´m not a fencing practicioner that try to speak about the influence of Western fencing, I´m a FMA practicioner.
You misunderstand all my words, I suppose that are my fault.
P.S.Thanks for your military history lessons.
P.S.2. Sorry for my intrusion in the post.


----------



## Sun_Helmet (Jun 18, 2004)

BFB:
The main reason of the conquer was the framentation of the country in little kingdoms with a lot of internal problems and the muslim were a united imperium(califato Omeya) with a higher culture (the muslins enter in Spain in a really dark age).

ME:
Fragmentation is one of the main common strategies of war according to Alexander the Great, Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, Genghis Khan and the Romans. That wasn't my point. 
My point was that Moors and Spanish tribes fought with BLADED weapons in a time when firearms did NOT exist. Spain divided or not, lost and were defeated by the Moors in battles that had NO firearms.

This is a totally different scenario than what happened in the Philippines. The Philippines as you may or may not know was also fragmentated like Spain was, and the CONQUESTA documents stated in frank terms how to exploit that fragmentation. But Spain used FIREARMS and the pike.

So taking fragmentation out of the discussion, the main fighting weapons during the Moors conquest of Spain were NOT firearms but Bladed weapons.

The main fighting weapons used in the Spanish conquesta of the Philippines were FIREARMS/pikes.

Both scenarios had fragmentation, but ALL wars depend on fragmentation or broken alliances. I'm focusing on the weapons used. Spanish soldiers ADMIT to reliance of the firearm to decide the outcome of battle in the Philippines.
That was NOT the case when the Moors fought the Spanish.

Thus, Spain had to adapt to their enemy- the Moors to defeat them. They had to learn the Moors methods of fighting. Which means Spain's evolvement in the sword was influenced by their conquerors the Moors.

The Moors also influenced the Filipinos, so much so that Spanish soldiers stated Filipinos fought like Moors or Turks.
Hopefully this clears it up.

BFB:
(I understand it from your words, sorry like I said in my other post my english is not very good, I would like to see you trying to expres yourself in my language).

Me:
great.
By the way, You NEVER stated what your native language was... if it is so complex it must be:
Tagalog



--Rafael--
---------
---------
---------
--------


----------



## OULobo (Jun 19, 2004)

To return a thread to topic
====================
Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation on topic..

-OULobo
-MT Moderator-
====================

While I've already learned quite a bit about Spanish history, I think it would be better suited in it's own thread.


----------



## Sun_Helmet (Jun 20, 2004)

<<I had a question. Where did the karambit work in the Sayoc system come from? It is the only system I have seen that uses it other than Indo. silat and so. Filipino silat. I noticed that guru Dionaldo was the first to promote it in the system and he his producing the weapon now too. Did he bring it to the system and if so where did he get it from?>>

Tuhon Ray was not the first to promote the Karambit in the Sayoc system, many of the instructors were already doing karambit work such as Tuhon Tom Kier and of course I first saw karambit work back in '83 with Tuhon Chris Sayoc. However, the karambit taught today via Tuhon Ray uses the Sayoc Kali template methods which organizes the various elements so that they coincide more uniformly with the curriculum taught in Sayoc Kali.

Check out the Karambit DVD for more info and an example of the Sayoc Kali template instruction at work. You'll also see the differences with a segment by Guro Ken Pannell of Indonesian style karambit work.

Btw, Filipinos have weapons shaped liked karambits but were not called karambits. Tuhon Ray D. also includes his silat material in his karambit work.


--Rafael--
--------
--------
-------
------


----------



## OULobo (Jun 20, 2004)

Sun_Helmet said:
			
		

> <<I had a question. Where did the karambit work in the Sayoc system come from? It is the only system I have seen that uses it other than Indo. silat and so. Filipino silat. I noticed that guru Dionaldo was the first to promote it in the system and he his producing the weapon now too. Did he bring it to the system and if so where did he get it from?>>
> 
> Tuhon Ray was not the first to promote the Karambit in the Sayoc system, many of the instructors were already doing karambit work such as Tuhon Tom Kier and of course I first saw karambit work back in '83 with Tuhon Chris Sayoc. However, the karambit taught today via Tuhon Ray uses the Sayoc Kali template methods which organizes the various elements so that they coincide more uniformly with the curriculum taught in Sayoc Kali.
> 
> ...




Cool, thanks for the info. I have batted around the idea of guru Ray's DVD for a while, but I usually don't buy videos. Mabey I will just for teh visuals and for eh comparison work. I'm holding out for actually getting a chance to get down there and train for a little while or at least a seminar.


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 27, 2004)

white mantis said:
			
		

> I had some questions about this art like is it relly all bladed weapons? what are the applications of blade on blade and blade on empty hand? and finaly were did Sayoc Kali originate from? Thank you. :asian:


I did some research for you:

Sayoc Kali is but one of the many facets of the Sayoc Fighting System. As currently taught by the 5th generation inheritor of Sayoc Kali, Tuhon Chris Sayoc emphasizes that the Sayoc Kali system emphasizes the correct and effective usage of the blade. Sayoc Kali includes knowledge of how to use a single knife, with a progression to the use of multiple blades, in conjunction with empty-hands training.​Included in these categories of training are proper handling or blade edge discipline, drawing the blades, vital target discrimination, defense against and the practice of disarms, projectiles and finger-touch methodology used in conjunction with knife work. Students are also taught critical injury management.​The Sayoc system has several categories of training. The training is in three parts. Sayoc Kali, the first part that is taught is in the offensive and contains the basic teaching formula. We call this person the Feeder. This is started in single blade. Sayoc Silak, the second part of the training is in the counter offensive and contains the learning formula. We call this person the Receiver and this is started in the empty hands. Once the receivers basics are established and the skills are equal to the feeders basics and in order to complete the training system, the third phase of training is introduced. ​Sayoc Bakal compliments both Sayoc Kali and Sayoc Silak. It works as a complete system with students trained in either Sayoc Kali or Sayoc Silak. The goal, however, is to have training in this order Sayoc Kali, followed by Sayoc Silak, and then on to Sayoc Bakal. These three systems together complete the Sayoc System of Edged Weapons Dynamics. The 2 main categories are single blade and multiple blades:​
Feeder, single blade -- Receiver, empty hands​
Feeder, multiple blades -- Receiver, multiple blades​
In the past, the Sayoc family developed sub-systems to adapt to mainstream martial arts to be taught in our first public martial arts school in Queens, New York that was opened in 1972. The categories taught were many as one of our primary objectives was to inform and educate the public. Though, we no longer teach these methods, we now use them as examples and reference. These were the categories and order in which they were taught from 1972 through 1982​
single stick (28-32)​
empty hands (foot works, body mechanics)​
double stick (24-32)​
stick and dagger​
dagger (single blade-multiple blades)​
tabak-toyok (single/double)​
pana (projectile in assorted sizes)​
long stick (36-50)​
whip (4-12) (single/double)​
staff/spear​
short stick (18-24)/tabak-maliit (single/double)​
shield and stick​
The rest at:http://sayoc.com/article_info.php?articles_id=3&osCsid=82af822701c1b92861775be9e0fee022​


----------

