# Ryu



## Aegis (Apr 28, 2003)

I noticed that RyuShiKan mentioned that a style needs to have been around for a few years in order to legitimately be known as a "Ryu". My question is this: in the context used by most martial art names (for example, Wado-ryu karate) what does the word Ryu actually mean?

In addition, though this has not been brought up by anyone to my knowledge, what does the word "Kan" mean, and how does it differ to the word ryu (obviously not just in pronunciation). I'd always thought that the two words were more or less interchangable, but then I'm not exactly much good at Japanese. In fact, that's an understatement: I can barely speak a word!

Thanks in advance.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *I noticed that RyuShiKan mentioned that a style needs to have been around for a few years in order to legitimately be known as a "Ryu".  *



That wasn't me but rather Chufeng that mentioned the "ryu" topic in another thread.


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## KennethKu (Apr 28, 2003)

"Kan" in Kanji (Chinese character) means club, association.  If it means something else specific to Karate, then I wouldn't know.


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## Aegis (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *That wasn't me but rather Chufeng that mentioned the "ryu" topic in another thread. *



Sorry, my mistake.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 28, 2003)

I was told it was another name for a school like the Kai.

My brother in laws school was named Newark Zen Bujutsukan and that was the way it was explained to me. But you know us Americans!


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## arnisador (Apr 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I was told it was another name for a school like the Kai. *



What I understood was that _ryu_ meant style or system and _kai_ meant organization.


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## yilisifu (Apr 28, 2003)

My understanding is (and RyuShihkan will PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), is that a "ryu" is a method or art that has been handed down through generations.  A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."

I think that "kai" refers to a style and "kan" refers to a school (as in a building).

Ryushihkan?  How far off am I?


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## arnisador (Apr 29, 2003)

My understanding is that Isshin-ryu and Uechi-ryu were both created with just those names; the latter one could argue was a name change of an existing style, but not the former.

I wonder if the practice of waiting before calling something a 'ryu' has passed? I don't know.

I do think that _kan_ refers to a place, e.g. _Shoto-kan_ Shoto's place/house.


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## kenmpoka (Apr 29, 2003)

As far as  I know:
"Ryu" denotes system, school, or method.
"Kai" refers to a society as in a group.
"Kan" is house or place.
"Kyokai" is Association.
"Renmei" is Federation.
"Kaikan" is a place where a group gather. I guess also an association or a club.

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 29, 2003)

arnisador,

I believe you are correct in relation to Uechi-ryu.  It did not become Uechi-ryu until 1947 after the death of Kanbun Uechi.  Renamed by his son Kanie in his honor.  



> A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."



I don't know if there is a 'rule of thumb' in which to go by, but if this is the case then Uechi-ryu does not meet the requirement.  They state in George Matteson's book of the same name that ryu simply means 'style of' according to the late Kanie Uechi.

:asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 29, 2003)

So there you are Grasshopper!
I've been wondering where you were? Away getting some more gradings no doubt?
Anyway, enough of this childish stuff or I'll have your students calling me names again.
You've changed the name of the things you teach a couple of times so I guess that makes you something of an expert?

If you want to be taken seriously by those on this forum who have been in the martial arts for more than a few years, then I suggest you come clean with your claims of high rank in one of the fighting systems you said you have trained in.

If you can't find it in you to do that, you have to expect more post like this one from those who see in you the very reason the martial arts are held in such low esteem by the general public world wide.

Before you carry on offering your pearls of wisdom, perhaps you could be mature enough to admit that at least some of the qualifications you stated you had some time ago, came from sources you are no longer happy to admit to?
Crap about not wanting to offend your past teachers by naming them is a smoke screen to hide what I suspect is some sense of embaressment by you? 

As one Budo-ka  and member of this forum, I'm asking' "Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"
You can write me on PM if you like.

I'll await your reply.
Mike.


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## arnisador (Apr 29, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## A.R.K. (Apr 29, 2003)

> "Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"



I don't have an 8th Dan in Pangeinoon-ryu.  I do have an 8th Dan in Pangainoon.  Many fine people on this forum know the names of the men that graded me.  I have discussed them in great detail in the chatroom, in PM's and in emails.  I have provided detailed information such as websites and even phone numbers.  I chose not to do so to Robert and his buddies on principle.  All of you feel that you have free reign on this site.  You seem to feel that you can bully and intimidate by repeated slander, inuedo and unsubstantiated allegations.  Now I suppose you feel you can go into another posters thread and divert the conversation once again to your agenda and smear campaign.  I have nothing to prove to any of you.  I need not answer to any of you.  

Now it would seem that you want people to believe they need Asian permission to be recognized at a certain rank.  Such as Robert's phone call to Okinawa.  Pangainoon is indigenous to China not Okinawa.  I have never claimed to have ties with Okinawa in regards to Pangainoon.  Why would I?  There is no requirement for me to be involved with any organization in Okinawa.  There are branches of Pangainoon all over the world.  America, Canada, Europe, Australia, Middle East etc.  Why would we need Okinawan recognition for a Chinese system?  For that matter why would we need China's recognition?  Answer me these questions.

You few put so much stock in a piece of paper and a piece of cloth.  The wall candy and the belt have absolutely no meaning in and of themselves.  It is what we know and can teach and can use in real life that counts.  'Recognition' in the form of a belt or certificate is merely what someone else wishes to recognize in you and of you.  As I have clearly detailed in several posts, rank ultimately comes from someone who had no rank.  You cannot escape this.  My rank and yours is ONLY what others have seen and tested in us.  No more and no less.  What matters is what you can teach others to do and what you personally can do in a real altercation.  I don't believe anyone here has challenged me on my ability to teach or what I am capable of doing to another human being if forced.  The issue is a piece of paper.  

As I've indicated, men who are my betters ranked me according to what they felt I was worthy.  As I've indicated, many here know who they are.  They are strong martial artists with fine reputations.  And as I've indicated, I will not cow down to 'demands' and a smear campain.  Think of me as an 8th Dan or think of me as a white belt.  Neither changes who I am or what I've done or what I could do.  If you feel the need to follow me into every post and continue the flames....it is your time, do with it as you deem fit.

I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community.  Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time.  But again, spend your time as you see fit.  I bid you peace and long life one and all.

:asian:


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## Disco (Apr 29, 2003)

Well, the question I had asked in the other post (closed), has been answered to an extent. I original asked if ranking came from another Organization/Country would that change anything? Part of the question is that it apparently does come from someplace other than Okinawa. Now for the other part, does this change anything for anybody? I personally have a difficult time with the people who think that unless it comes from Okinawa, it's worthless. RyuShiKan himself has stated that he has incountered or at least knows of people from both Okinawa and Japan who are shall we say less than honorable or whose style(s) are subject to very close inspection or are totally bogus in comparrison to other disciplines. Again I reiterate, does this change anything for anybody?


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## MartialArtist (Apr 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *
> I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community. Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time. But again, spend your time as you see fit. I bid you peace and long life one and all.
> 
> :asian: *


Is that cause the military community does not care what you have, and don't care to prove it?


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## James Kovacich (Apr 29, 2003)

I find it quite funny that SOME people out care so much about the non-essentials. I did this, no you didn't, I know I'm right, damn and they wonder why "the martial arts are held in such low esteem by the general public world wide." Maybe they should look in the mirror.

I can say this about the two gentlemen that won't let it go. Sorry boys, but my Sensei is YOUR SENIOR in every respect and he sees me worthy of my 5th Dan. 

Ummmm, one of you is a 4th Dan and the other is 6th Dan. Does that mean I can fight as good as you? NO! Does it mean that I deserve as much as respect as you? NO! But I am very much a real martial combatant with or without your respect. 

It does mean that someone who knows me (and in my opinion, knows better than you) recognizes me, my martial art abilities and respects me enough back me up 100%. 

And you Mr. 6th Dan your trying to police the police. Who made you the authority of a system you have nothing to do with?

MRJ, is a cop and I was on the otherside incarcerated for several years and I have more respect for him than I do for those who worry about the non-essentials. This caca sounds like kids play. 

Don't even waste your time with me, I've fought the fight, the cage fight that dosen't let you go home, you have to wake up the next day and deal with what you did yesterday. Real fights, not the tippy tap that most think is practice. 

NUMBER ONE, No one country has a monopoly on martial arts or rank.

NUMBER TWO, Once an art is taught, the student has NO OBLIGATION to teach as he was taught.

NUMBER THREE, Even if everybody followed the same standards, you TWO still would not be qualified to be the martial cops.

I've tried to be rational and I just don't give a mad F anymore, you don't deserve any respect except from your followers. Respect is earned and the dribble I've read in about three threads (that keeps getting locked, because of your dribble) does not command respect.

You can earn respect by acting right. I've put myself in check, time and time again, here and in my daily life. You need to check yourself. Its easy enough to ignore someone but you choose to keep digging a hole for yourself. Let it go. 

I'm not *** kissin any of you. Don't like me? Then F U. Thats me.

If you want to be right, then lets be right together. We are all one. We we're born that way and we will leave this earth that way. If we can't live this way, then it will be someone else thats casts the first stone. And those who do will have to live with the respect that they've earned.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 29, 2003)

This was written by a great warrior and his grandson. It could help some to take they're blinders off.

Professor Tarow Ty Hayashi,

Shihan-

October 24, 1927-November 5, 2001

I shall know the depth of the principles of gentleness yet the cold tenacity of determination even in the face of death. I shall walk amongst my fellow men with purity of heart, a free conscience and a deep love of God and his creations. I shall have the strength of character that nothing shall disturb my peace of mind. I shall be to big for worry, to noble for anger, to strong for fear and to happy to permit the presence of trouble. I shall at all times face the world boldly and accept the challenges of this life. (Ty Hayashi)

When our hour comes, as we walk through the valley of death, we shall fear no evil, for this moment, like all other moments of time in our life, will cease to be. Death is just another step in the staircase of life that we all have to climb, and it is not the end but only the beginning. It is the last physical battle a warrior must fight, and a true warrior humbly goes into goes into battle and it is his heritage to stand erect, proud and unafraid, where the victory is won as the heart stops, the eyes close and the last breath has left. Then we shall walk the staircase to heaven where the king rewards us, as true warriors in this fight, for peace, our gold medal of eternal life. 

-Dennis Bare, grandson


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## A.R.K. (Apr 29, 2003)

> Is that cause the military community does not care what you have, and don't care to prove it?



I'm not sure this makes sense.  The martial arts/LEO community focuses on what you can do, not what hangs on the wall [or in my case sits in a box in my closet].  It is mission/method oriented.  Credentials are needed of course but in this arena credentials are regulated more stringently.  For example, in order to teach Police D.T. I had to attend an FDLE instructors course and internship.  What is taught, how it's taught and who is taught is regulated.  

In the martial arts there are no regulated credentials so it is all subjective and relative.  My Dan in Pangainoon is valid.  I recieved it from those above me in accordance with system policy from several men of different cultural backgrounds.  But some here would claim that since it was not from Okinawa it is not valid.  I'm fine with that, because it simply doesn't change what I know and can do.  A lot of my credentials come from the Middle East, which enjoys a fine tradition of fighting arts.  As I've lived there and have family there I have many fine resourses available to me.  If anyone doesn't feel that I can recieve any type of ranking from another country besides Okinawa, well again, I'm fine with that.  It's not true and doesn't change a thing.  But any and all are welcome to hold to that opinion.  

So I hope that answers your question.  Military/LEO is cut and dry, MA's are relative and subjective.  Perhaps another point to be added, I can teach anywhere in the state because of my credentials.  Some of my credentials allow me to teach in other countries.  They are fixed so to speak.  Not so with MA's many times because of politics & greed.

Thank you for allowing me to expound on this point, I appreciate it.

AKJA

 

:asian:


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## yilisifu (Apr 30, 2003)

If someone alleges to hold a certain rank in a system that is headquartered in Okinawa or Japan or whatever, then that rank should be registered with same.  If I say that I'm a 6th dan in Kyokushin, then the HQ of Kyokushin in Tokyo should have that grade registered.

On the other hand, if I allege that I'm ranked in a system that is not headquartered in the Orient, that's equally fine - but the HQ, wherever it is, should have it on record.

Not all system are headquartered in the Orient.  That's fine.

But.....

   Pangainoon-ryu IS headquartered in Okinawa.  ALL ranks in that system should be registered with them.

   It's that simple.  

   If this gentleman claims to be an 8th dan in Pangainoon, but their HQ has no record of it, then the claim is false.  Perhaps his teacher was not truthful with him.  Perhaps he is not being truthful with himself or with us.  Whatever.  If it is the former, then I suggest they stop calling what they teach "Pangainoon" and pick some other name.  That one's taken.

   I do think it's important that such questions be resolved.  Unwillingness to resolve these kinds of issues has led to the general chaos we see in martial arts in the world today with literally hundreds and hundreds of homemade styles and people claiming to be extremely high-ranked practicioners of well-established systems.


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *My understanding is (and RyuShihkan will PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), is that a "ryu" is a method or art that has been handed down through generations.  A system that has been around for only one or two or even three generations cannot be called a "ryu."
> 
> I think that "kai" refers to a style and "kan" refers to a school (as in a building).
> ...



I have never heard it takes time to become a Ryu, so I cant say.
Ryu simple means style.





> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> * "Who did you recieve your 8th Dan grade from in Pangeinoon-ryu?"
> *



Mike, 
That has become the Holy Grail or lost city of Atlantis.
It would seem only people that never questioned him are privileged  enough to that information.
As for me, his non-answer tells me what I need to know, because anyone that didnt have anything to hide would answer that question freely without suspicion. 





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> * I chose not to do so to Robert and his buddies on principle. *







> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> * Now it would seem that you want people to believe they need Asian permission to be recognized at a certain rank. *



Its only logical when they claim rank in an Asian art which has only one HQ and its located in Asia. 





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  Such as Robert's phone call to Okinawa.  Pangainoon is indigenous to China not Okinawa.  I have never claimed to have ties with Okinawa in regards to Pangainoon. *



Funny, I had a conversation via email with Patrick McCarthy who is a noted martial historian and has made many trip to China as well as Okinawa and he didnt seem to think Pangainoon was still around as an organization in China.

Care to expand on your Chinese Connections........I speak Chinese so I could just as easily verify your claim.
Just think how it would vindicate you and make you legit if I were to come here and say Yup, I called the HQ in China and they said he is the real deal




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  Why would I?  There is no requirement for me to be involved with any organization in Okinawa.  There are branches of Pangainoon all over the world.  America, Canada, Europe, Australia, Middle East etc.  Why would we need Okinawan recognition for a Chinese system?  For that matter why would we need China's recognition?  Answer me these questions. *



It should be noted that many of those organization were once Uechi Ryu Dojos that switched the name for various reasons.



> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  You few put so much stock in a piece of paper and a piece of cloth.  *



You are the one that made the claim.and arent backing it up with any facts. 




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  Think of me as an 8th Dan or think of me as a white belt. *



If I wrote the explicative that I think you are I would get the boot from this board for sure.





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  I will thank you all for one thing however, you have reminded me why I prefer the military/LEO community rather than the 'martial art' community.  Bickering and in-fighting over who is what seems to me a waste of time. *



Paaalease..I teach martial arts on a Military base.
With the exception of a few guys most of the MA guys I run into on base dont know crap. So it's odd that I, a non-military, non-Cop,  have been asked to teach classes to CID, MPs, IG as well as some others.



> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *Well, the question I had asked in the other post (closed), has been answered to an extent. I original asked if ranking came from another Organization/Country would that change anything? Part of the question is that it apparently does come from someplace other than Okinawa. Now for the other part, does this change anything for anybody? I personally have a difficult time with the people who think that unless it comes from Okinawa, it's worthless. RyuShiKan himself has stated that he has incountered or at least knows of people from both Okinawa and Japan who are shall we say less than honorable or whose style(s) are subject to very close inspection or are totally bogus in comparrison to other disciplines. Again I reiterate, does this change anything for anybody? *




False or unsubstantiated claims to rank cant be taken seriously no matter where they are supposedly from.
When people get rank from outside their own organization I have to ask Why? because it seems odd that they would need to.




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  I'm not sure this makes sense.  The martial arts/LEO community focuses on what you can do, not what hangs on the wall [or in my case sits in a box in my closet]. *



Then its odd how you claim to be in law enforcement and also claim more titles than most, if not all, the members of this BBs.




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  In the martial arts there are no regulated credentials so it is all subjective and relative.  My Dan in Pangainoon is valid.  I recieved it from those above me in accordance with system policy from several men of different cultural backgrounds.  But some here would claim that since it was not from Okinawa it is not valid. *



As stated before. 
If you are claiming rank in a style where the HQ is in a certain country and that same HQ has never heard of you, your credibility is greatly questioned.


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## chufeng (Apr 30, 2003)

RSK,

I know that I read the generational requirement in a book that detailed Japanese systems...however, I can't tell you which book it was...I don't keep a bibilography with footnotes on every book I read...

Perhaps you could ask around and see what the current thought is on that term...it may have historically developed with generational requirements but currently is no longer used that way...

I'll keep looking for the book that referenced it...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *RSK,
> 
> I know that I read the generational requirement in a book that detailed Japanese systems...however, I can't tell you which book it was...I don't keep a bibilography with footnotes on every book I read...
> ...



Please do. I would be interested in knowing who wrote it.
I don't disagree or agree with it .........I simply don't know anything about it.


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## Disco (Apr 30, 2003)

EVERYBODY GONNA DO TIME TA-DAY...........

We talked to judge Judy and Wopner. Asked them about this crime of the century. 

          THIS IS THEIR RULING:

MyaRyu, you are hereby demoted entirely from PangRacoon,,,,,,,,

RhyShiKan, you are held in contempt of court for BEATING A DEAD HORSE. Additional action may be pending from the ASPCA.

This case is CLOSED!

"Bailiff, call the next case"..........

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I find it quite funny that SOME people out care so much about the non-essentials. I did this, no you didn't, I know I'm right, damn and they wonder why "the martial arts are held in such low esteem by the general public world wide." Maybe they should look in the mirror.
> 
> I can say this about the two gentlemen that won't let it go. Sorry boys, but my Sensei is YOUR SENIOR in every respect and he sees me worthy of my 5th Dan.
> ...



Sounds like a desperate plead for attention there, my friend.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Sounds like a desperate plead for attention there, my friend.  *



Just the truth, my friend!


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## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *EVERYBODY GONNA DO TIME TA-DAY...........
> 
> We talked to judge Judy and Wopner. Asked them about this crime of the century.
> ...



I am curious as to why you have been laboriously trying every way just to get the guy off the hook from addressing the 8th dan Pangainoon claim.


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## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Just the truth, my friend! *



  I see your original points just fine. But I don't believe that they would excuse people from making claims of titles and ranks that are "pie in the sky".  I am not alone in saying that when a person makes bogus claim of credential then he is a liar.  A liar is undeserving of your respect.  Liars making bogus claims are cancel in the MA community. Of course you don't just go around accusing people of being liars. Hence the long winded process of inquiry and all the chances in the world for the person to clarify and to educate us on the basis of his/her claims.   I do not see anything wrong in such a process.   As a member of the society, you have the obligation to ask questions to seek the truth.


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## James Kovacich (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *  I see your original points just fine. But I don't believe that they would excuse people from making claims of titles and ranks that are "pie in the sky".  I am not alone in saying that when a person makes bogus claim of credential then he is a liar.  A liar is undeserving of your respect.  Liars making bogus claims are cancel in the MA community. Of course you don't just go around accusing people of being liars. Hence the long winded process of inquiry and all the chances in the world for the person to clarify and to educate us on the basis of his/her claims.   I do not see anything wrong in such a process.   As a member of the society, you have the obligation to ask questions to seek the truth. *


 Martial arts is a journey of seeking the truth but my self knowledge does not require knowledge that does not effect me, it is meaningless. Many people all around us fall within the same guidelines that are being set here.

Regulation does not work. The only people that are in favor of martial art regulation are the ones that are going to make money on it, period. The smart ones dont want it.

So why is it going on here on a smaller level? I think its petty for anybody by themselves or as a group to do the policeing. These same individuals will tell you that the training means more to them than the rank but they are worried about someone elses rank and who issued it. It is not good character.

Official recognition will have no effect to me except a positive one because it will allow me to make a lot of money just like the proponents of martial art regulation. My 5th Dan is registerd under my Hanshi who has 49 years in the martial arts and heads up a large international organization. He would become more rich and in turn I would receive the the riches from the ripple down effect. Go ahead and vote for it! If the bill ever passes you will set my financial future!   

But thats not what Im looking for, IM JUST MAKING MY POINT!!!:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mike Clarke _
> *So there you are Grasshopper!
> I've been wondering where you were? Away getting some more gradings no doubt?
> Anyway, enough of this childish stuff or I'll have your students calling me names again.
> ...



Mike,

MRJ is not going to reveal that info to you, why cant you just except that and move on!


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## DAC..florida (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *If someone alleges to hold a certain rank in a system that is headquartered in Okinawa or Japan or whatever, then that rank should be registered with same.  If I say that I'm a 6th dan in Kyokushin, then the HQ of Kyokushin in Tokyo should have that grade registered.
> 
> On the other hand, if I allege that I'm ranked in a system that is not headquartered in the Orient, that's equally fine - but the HQ, wherever it is, should have it on record.
> ...





Yilisifu,

You say that all ranks should be registered with there root countries ect., but you know as well as I do that all are not. That doesnt mean that there not legit, it just means that they chose not to ascoiate with that organization? Maybe they had past differences or somthing, but for whatever reason they have no affiliation with Japanese org.
I'm not saying that this is true because I honestly dont know but I'm pretty sure that this could be possible!


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## Disco (Apr 30, 2003)

I tried asking serious questions and they were either answered in part or just ignored. I asked the same question 3 times with no direct answer. I personally am tired of the same old same old. Thread gets closed, new one starts and were back to the same old crap. People get suspended/banned, short time later, round 2,3, or 4 is up and running. I have given both sides respect and tried to attempt to give a different viewpoint to the proceedings (Foolish me). This item was/is at a total impass. It's time to bury the sucka and move on.

  :soapbox:


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## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

None of my bee wax, but for some one who is "tired of the same old same old", you seem to follow the topic enthusiastically every corner it ends up.


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## Master of Blades (Apr 30, 2003)

Which is what I've been saying all along, well said Disco :asian:


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## KennethKu (Apr 30, 2003)

Either people do not grasp the gravity of the issue or they purposefully ignored it for whatever reason.


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## Master of Blades (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *Either people do not grasp the gravity of the issue or they purposefully ignored it for whatever reason. *



Not at all, but I've spoken to MRJ and either he is telling the truth or he should start writing novels cuz he has a better story then Stephen King could write!


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## Disco (Apr 30, 2003)

I don't follow it, it just seems to follow us. If I'm in a thread and posting to other issues and this comes roaring in again, how am I following it? But I'll tell you what. I'll make this real easy for all concerned, including staff. Since there seems to be two growing camps of participants, which to me means that this thing is/will not go away. Then I'll just go away. Bye!!!

People in charge, close me out!!!!!!!


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## Master of Blades (Apr 30, 2003)

Okay okay its gotten out of hand AGAIN! 

Disco, when people start leaving things start getting stupid....Stay, all he was saying was dont complain when you can just stay away from these threads. 

RSK and Party, Some people are on your side, some people aint, Your NEVER gonna get everyone to believe you....so why bother continueing.....You have accomplished your goal by proving to yourself and finding out for sure this guy is a "Fraud" so is there any need for continueing any of this? 

MRJ and Party, Same to you guys, just leave it, no point argueing anymore, nothing else to be said. 

Cant we just agree to disagree and all be happy?


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## A.R.K. (Apr 30, 2003)

No student or instructor needs to be a member of any organization in any country.  No school needs to be a member of any organization in any country.  

If I'm in error on this point, simply post the page of the rule book that states we MUST belong.

And Ken, I think perhaps you my friend amoung many are missing the big picture.  A belt of any color has absolutely no meaning except to the person wearing it, and perhaps the school or schools of the same system.  It basically means the student has attained a certain level and has time in grade.  It does not mean the student can fight...which is the sole root purpose of the martial arts.  Having practical experience in the real world does however mean quite a bit.  If you and a few others want to dwell on my credentials, by all means invest your time, effort and energy into it.  

If Robert had opened a respectful and courteous diologe with me months ago I would have been happy to discuss my background in detail with him...as I have already with many here that have gone this route.  Many try to defend him with 'Well he's just straight-forward and strong-willed'.  No, he is tactless and rude and thinks he can boss people around.  And he has a little posse that he acts out in front of which only esculates his behavior.  

Regardless, you don't have a leg to stand on in my humble opinion.  No one has to belong to any organization for recognition.  No one has to explain themselves to anyone who is obsessed with tearing them down.  I bear him and you and the others no ill will.  Nor am I angry in the least.  And truth be told I have much to thank all of you for...but more on that later.  I'm going to go eat dinner now.  Think of me in any way that you desire and peace and long life to you and to all.


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## A.R.K. (Apr 30, 2003)

Joseph,

Its ok partner    The meaner they get, the nicer I'll be    Disco will be back, he's like a bad penny lol.  He's also a good friend.  

I still want to see that page in the rule book that dictates we must belong to a particular organization.  I'm sure that RSK or one of the Yili practioners are at this very moment scanning it into the computer so that they can post it here for all of us to enjoy and learn from.  Thank you in advance :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 30, 2003)

Guys....enough.

You're wearing a circle in the floor.

I think most folks here are tired of the fact than any thread involving the 2 groups seems to decend to nothing more than "Papers Please!".  I often picture Sgt. Schultz in a gi asking for em.....

Drop it.  We understand the concerns of both sides, but the non-stop bickering is disrupting this forum (and causing me personally to run out of advil)

I dont believe that either side will be satisfied regardless of any sollutions.

Here is where things stand, stalemate.

I can respect Robert and his associates desire to out frauds, and help maintain the integrety of the arts.  I wholeheartedly aprove of the concept.  The problem here is, you are not going to get the information you want.  You have presented all of your information.  It is stored here for anyone to read.  MRJ can answer you or not.  He chooses not to do so publically.  He has privately given me some information, which did check out as far as I could dig before my system melted down last week.  I am satisfied that he's not a bad person.  The goal of getting information out to the public is a good one.  The goal of hounding and harrassing someone, or running them off this board due to having a different opinion is not.  I apreciate Roberts contacts and ability to check with organizations in Japan and China.  I couldn't ask for the john in those languages, much less ask more serious stuff.  But, what good does calling Kyoto do if the organization is out of Tel Aviv?  None.  Why would I ask the IKKO if the persons with the IKKP? I'm not downplaying things, just asking.

Let the discussions that have happened make your statements for you.  It is time to move on.

The name of his organization means something to him.  He is not the first to mix and match words to name a style or system..he wont be the last.  

As to the credibility of his certs...I havent seen them.   Given how easy it would be for me to knock out a fake cert, I doubt highly the credibility of any piece of paper, regardless of who presents it.  I believe skill on the mat and skill on the street count more than parchment and ink.




Guys, move on.  


Else I have to unleash the dreaded "Kämpfen wie tora kaze" on you.  (and yes, I probably screwed up the grammer)

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (Apr 30, 2003)

> I doubt highly the credibility of any piece of paper, regardless of who presents it. I believe skill on the mat and skill on the street count more than parchment and ink.



EXACTLY!!!

The wall candy and the belt mean nothing in and of themselves.  It is merely a public recognition of what someone else things of you either on a personal or organizational level.  A high ranking Dan with no practical experience may very well fare far worse in an altercation than a no rank individual with limited knowledge but real world experience.  Experience and heart over technical skill and titles.  

As I've said numerous times, I'm not mad at Robert or his followers.  Quite the opposite, I have much to be grateful for as the result of their comments and views.  And I will give credit where it is due, if not for this 'debate' I wouldn't be thinking along the lines that I now am thinking.  Mya Ryu Jitsu probably isn't grammatically correct especially with mixing the two languages.  Yes, the honorable intent is/was there and the meaning clear to us.  But constructive criticism is always welcome if the intent is to be helpful rather than hurtful.  Our intent was to tie where we are now to where we 'came' from in terms of homage to a country.  In this case a Japanese name.  

But Japanese systems aren't the only training that has influenced us.  Their is quite a bit of China, Korea, Canadian, Great Britian and the Middle East and American contributing to our overall abilities.  By chosing MRJ we excluded quite a bit.  And another point, we are Americans.  Why would/should we pattern ourselves after other styles and systems.  It would be far better to be original and innovative.  Since I hardly ever wear a belt...why incorporate belts into our system?  Their are other ways to designate a students progress.  Why wear traditional gi's?  I normally wear a comfortable T and gym pants.  Why use foriegn terminology such as kyu, dan, titles etc.  

We have decided to revamp the outer layers of our system so that it relflects our goals, ideaology, focus as well as pride in our country.  Still with high respect for our fighting 'roots' but everyone needs to take all of life's experiences and make them personal to themselves.   I know the goals I'm/we're trying to reach.   I have great joy in teaching and putting my experience into my students training.  It has achieved wonderful results in the real world for many of them both in a high risk career field as well as off-duty time.

I don't want to sound a philisophical here, but my opinion really is that a black belt is meaningless in and of itself.  If someone says 'I'm a black belt' what does it really mean beyond paying some money and taking the appropriate amount of classes?  It doesn't mean anything...it is the PERSON that means something.  And that meaning is going to vary from person to person.  

Robert I'm sure your a fine teacher and martial artist.  I'm sure you have worked extremely hard to get to where your at now. I know your passionate in your beliefs and I commend and applaude you.  My credentials are real and valid but do not come from Asia.  If this therefore invalidates them in your eyes then let them be as dust to you.  My credentials come from Americans, Europeans and the Middle East.  I feel they have a fine tradition with much to offer.  If this is unsatisfactory to you then completely disregard them at my insistance.  

I think Robert that you and some of the Yili folks have stated that I'm a good teacher and good fighter and it's the credential thing between us.  As I said, since it's not Asian then disregard them.  I won't be upset at all.  Thank you for your commenting as to being a good techer, that does mean a lot.  As for being a good fighter...I prefer not to be known for this.  In the real world, have I hurt men?  Yes I have...but there is no glory in this.  There is no honor.  It's not 'fun' to break a man.  I don't wake up in the morning looking for the opportunity.  It is an unfortunate necessity of the career that I have chosen.  It is far to easy to hurt someone.  I would rather be known for the times I have deesculated a situation and avoided force.  I would rather be known for the people I've saved.  I would rather be known as an innovator and creative teacher.  I would rather be known for being a person to turn to when in need.

I would invite you to know me for who I am and what I can offer. 

 :asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 30, 2003)

This thread has completely side-stepped the original question...

Since it was a comment I made elsewhere that sparked this thread, let me share what I found.

The book that I was referring to was written by David Lowry. It is titled: Sword and Brush: the spirit of the martial arts.

Chapter 6, page 30 & 31 (in my copy).

"It was not until the strife-ridden Muromachi age (ca. 1300-1600) that warrior clans began to organize their professional skills, to polish those that were most effective, and to transmit them to other clan members. Such evolution allowed learning from the accumulated experiences of others. It was the foundation of the martial ryu.
   The martial ryu assumed distinctive identities based upon specific strategies they adopted...some ryu were the exclusive domain of a single clan or fiefdom...Yet, no matter what the course or breadth of instruction, the form of transmitting skills through the ryu was-and, in those still extant, is-consistent. They are passed on from one generation to the next, preserved as a living structure..."

This was the first book I read regarding that term...however, I have since read additional information that a ryu must pass through more than one generation to be a ryu...

I'll still need to look further for that reference...but I haven't forgotten the original question...and I'm not sure how we got to this point in the thread, but let's try and keep it on topic or we'll need to start another to finish the discussion of the original question...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Apr 30, 2003)

Chufeng,

That might be a difficult task nailing down a definitive meaning.  It may very well have changed from era to era.  Earlier I mentioned Uechi-ryu.  It became a Ryu directly after Kanbun's death in 1947, changed by his son Kanie to honor him.  

What about the other Ryu's such as Goju and Isshin?  Did they become a Ryu after a lengthy period or more immediately after some type of event i.e. death, system separtation etc?

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Regulation does not work. The only people that are in favor of martial art regulation are the ones that are going to make money on it, period. The smart ones dont want it. *



I disagree on this generality.  I don't make a dime for teaching, nor do I want to.  I _do_, however, have a vested interest in maintaining standards in the MA community, one of which is legitimacy.  Having instructors with questionable credentials is a detriment to us all, TMAists and non-TMAists alike.  We rely on our credentials, whatever they may be (belt grades registered with international organizations or fight titles), to lend credibility and authenticity to what we do.  There are folks out there teaching completely bogus garbage to the unsuspecting, unwitting, ignorant public.  They are nothing more than wolves preying on sheep, and if we don't police them up, we all suffer in the long run.

Hence the absolute requirement for some sort of regulation, be it by the MA community as a whole at large, or each individual organization maintaining its own standards and refusing to compromise them in order to expand.

Money enters in, sure.  I'm neither blind nor naive.  However, the ultimate goal is one that benefits us all, including those of us who teach for free...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *RSK,
> 
> I know that I read the generational requirement in a book that detailed Japanese systems...however, I can't tell you which book it was...I don't keep a bibilography with footnotes on every book I read...
> ...



I've heard the same thing, though I think it was in a discussion on E-budo regarding other arts...  There is, I think, a requirement by the Japanese governmental organization that monitors and registers MAs as authentic, for a MA to be considered a "ryu."

I know that doesn't help to authenticate this theory, but at least it isn't one isolated comment...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Yilisifu,
> 
> You say that all ranks should be registered with there root countries ect., but you know as well as I do that all are not. *



No.  I think what Yilisifu said was that people that claim to teach an art that is governed by a particular organization should be registered with that organization.  He didn't say that they should be registered with their "root country."



> *That doesnt mean that there not legit, it just means that they chose not to ascoiate with that organization? Maybe they had past differences or somthing, but for whatever reason they have no affiliation with Japanese org.
> I'm not saying that this is true because I honestly dont know but I'm pretty sure that this could be possible! *



No, the legitimacy of that teacher isn't necessarily called into question, but it sure looks bad when he claims to teach a style that is recognized as being taught and governed by a particular organization and his name is nowhere to be found in their rosters...  It brings to mind questions that must be answered to the satisfaction of anyone asking - otherwise, that instructor will bear the brunt of public distrust.  The same can be said of non-MA situations with similar issues.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 30, 2003)

MRJ,

I certainly think that, based on that excerpt, one could call his art a ryu...but the proof of the ryu is in its surviving beyond one generation...and I think that is exactly what the other book said...the ryu of traditional systems existed beyond one generation of teachers (after all, if it didn't survive, it's not around anymore)...so, my first comment on that other thread may have been incorrect...

...and I've already acknowledged that the term may have a different meaning in today's world...

This kind of underscores the issue of incorrect use of language...and I really am not interested in opening that can of worms (so you picky language guys don't need to respond)...

I supported a "dictionary of terms" or glossary for this web-board in the not so distant past...perhaps issues of language could be avoided if we had one and had it "sticky" so that everyone who enters a forum sees it.

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (Apr 30, 2003)

> I supported a "dictionary of terms" or glossary for this web-board in the not so distant past...perhaps issues of language could be avoided if we had one and had it "sticky" so that everyone who enters a forum sees it.



That is actually a very good idea.  

As I mentioned, we will be changing names very soon to avoid toe-stepping and any confusion.  I think it in the best interest of what our goals are.  Belts and such will be discontinued.  To be honest, none of our students were big on us adopting a belt ranking system to begin with.  They just wanted solid training that they can use on-duty.  That is our focus, not competitions or titles but going home safe at the end of a shift.  

Let me add that there is nothing wrong with belts and such.  We would just like to take a different approach.   

:asian:


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## chufeng (Apr 30, 2003)

MRJ,

Most of the YiLi folks could give a sparrow's fart about rank.
Getting Yiliquan1 to wear any rank is difficult, at best...he's always taking it off and tying it on a student who doesn't have a belt...(after all, the reason a belt was worn in the first place, at least in Chinese systems, was to focus the practitioner on the tan t'ien when breathing out)...our rank structure is more for the benefit of the teacher and less about who wears what at training...

But, and I don't want to hit a hornets' nest with a stick...the concern some people have is with the legitimacy of your Pangainoon rank...quite frankly, I don't care...and I do not plan on responding to the vortex which surrounds that topic...

I'm satisfied with the answers you've provided.

...and I'm certainly tired of beating a dead horse...the damn thing won't run...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Most of the YiLi folks could give a sparrow's fart about rank.
> Getting Yiliquan1 to wear any rank is difficult, at best...he's always taking it off and tying it on a student who doesn't have a belt...*



If I had a white belt, that is all I would wear...  If folks looking at me think less of me because of I wear a white belt, F 'em.  The only reason I wear a belt at all is because a) it holds my jacket shut, b) I never know when I will need to tie it around a student's waist to illustrate a point, and c) the bylaws of our organization require it...

Rank means Richard...  I was chatting with one of our seniors last night on the internet, and he was trying to convince me that I should be tested for Level 3 soon...  NOT!   Hell, I don't even think I deserve what I wear as it is...

MRJ, here's my take - you have knowledge.  I don't begrudge you that.  The only burr there has ever really been under my saddle was that you felt you deserved better treatment than you got when you first came on this board...  Whatever.  I admit most folks get greeted a little more friendly-like, but then again most folks don't claim to have started their own style, nor do they claim lofty grades in multiple styles...  Whatever.

Some of your posts have intrigued me.  Some have had some good info.  Some have been a little too "pat myself on the back for the cool stuff I have done/experienced/seen."  Whatever.

As for the _ryu_ thing, regardless of what the Uechi people did, it has been my understanding for quite a while that some method must be around for at least several generations to warrant being referred to as a ryu...  The longevity of that particular method simply must be established through time and survival.  Japanese, Okinawan, Chinese, Korean, whatever - all cutlures make mistakes, even within their own cultural rules structures.  If Uechi's kid or grandkid renamed the thing a ryu to honor his ancestor - fine.  It still goes against the grain.  Does that change it?  No.  Do people give two frog farts?  Probably not, beyond the academicians (like me, who are picky about things like that).  Will the world stop turning and the polar caps melt?  I doubt it.

Do I like the fact that things get misused and then lend further confusion to folks from outside the cultural context of an art's origin?  Not a bit.  But I live with the pain...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## James Kovacich (Apr 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I disagree on this generality.  I don't make a dime for teaching, nor do I want to.  I do, however, have a vested interest in maintaining standards in the MA community, one of which is legitimacy.  Having instructors with questionable credentials is a detriment to us all, TMAists and non-TMAists alike.  We rely on our credentials, whatever they may be (belt grades registered with international organizations or fight titles), to lend credibility and authenticity to what we do.  There are folks out there teaching completely bogus garbage to the unsuspecting, unwitting, ignorant public.  They are nothing more than wolves preying on sheep, and if we don't police them up, we all suffer in the long run.
> 
> Hence the absolute requirement for some sort of regulation, be it by the MA community as a whole at large, or each individual organization maintaining its own standards and refusing to compromise them in order to expand.
> ...



There are exceptions to most things in life but the bill that they've been trying to pass will do more harm than good. There are many legitimate instructors who would fall between the cracks and many Mc Dojo will flourish.:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *I think Robert that you and some of the Yili folks have stated that I'm a good teacher and good fighter and it's the credential thing between us. *




Nope, never stated such a thing.and dont care if you are either.
All my impressions of you were based on several claims that you made here.
First was the Soke thing..which you got rid of, and I appreciate.
Now is the claim to an 8th dan from a style I am interested in knowing more about.

DAC and you have tried to make some point about your skills and how it doesnt matter that you claim rank in a system.

I think it does matter.
If someone were kickboxing Champion of the World and claimed he was a member of my dojo and wasnt, regardless of his skills or accomplishments I wouldnt care for it.


I would rather not keep pounding this into the ground and wouldnt have but my name was mentioned by MRJ on this topic in a now closed thread.
Like I said before, MRJs non-answer, or pleading the 5th as it were, confirms my previous suspicions.


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## RyuShiKan (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *This thread has completely side-stepped the original question...
> 
> Since it was a comment I made elsewhere that sparked this thread, let me share what I found.
> ...





Sorry, I am not a big fan of Dave Lowry.

What he is talking about here is techniques were collected bit by bit over generations and then organized systemized and then formed into a Ryu. It only took several generations because of the slow process. 
Swordsman of the time didnt have extensive knowledge of various techniques and had to acquire them slowly from various placessuch as real fights or from trusted individuals. 
So basically any collection of techniques that has become formulated and systemized can be considered a ryu.


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## RyuShiKan (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I've heard the same thing, though I think it was in a discussion on E-budo regarding other arts...  There is, I think, a requirement by the Japanese governmental organization that monitors and registers MAs as authentic, for a MA to be considered a "ryu."
> 
> I know that doesn't help to authenticate this theory, but at least it isn't one isolated comment...
> ...




What you are talking about is one of several good ol boy networks in Budo here.
They would like to be the end all beat all in saying who is the real deal and who is not Japanese Budo.
However I know for a fact that they have some charlatans amongst them and all that is really required for entry is lots of lip gloss on backsides.


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## A.R.K. (May 1, 2003)

> Nope, never stated such a thing



That was Chufeng, my apologies.





> I would rather not keep pounding this into the ground and wouldnt have but my name was mentioned by MRJ on this topic in a now closed thread.



Remember, it wasn't an attack and had nothing to do with any ranking I have.  It concerned the number of kata in a system.  I stated three but gave you credit by name for an alternative opinion.  That is not an attack and I stated so later to clarify the post.  I honored you by giving you credit for an alternative.  How you took it wrong, I do not know.  You rehashed the whole rank thing not I.  I don't even list rank in my profile, just systems I've trained in.

One does not need to belong to any organization for credibility.  But since your opinion on this differs I believe it should settle the whole issue.  My rankings come from recognition in my country, Europe and the Middle East, not Okinawa.  Since you feel they must come from Okinawa then in your eyes they are not credible.  Others however do feel they are credible.  Think of me as having no rank if you like.  I'm fine either way as it changes not a thing.




> Like I said before, MRJs non-answer, or pleading the 5th as it were, confirms my previous suspicions.



Once again, many here do know and are satisfied with my credentials.  I just have chosen not to share with you because of your behavior.  It could easily have been otherwise, but you chose differently.  Since my credentials come from other parts of the world that you don't recognize it's a mute point.   I'm still who I am and teach what I teach and seek peace and friendship from and with all.  You included.  But as always the choice is yours.

Yili 1, I'm glad some of my posts intrigued you.  I think we all have much to share here.  Stay safe to you and all.

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 1, 2003)

Yiliquan 1,



> MRJ, here's my take - you have knowledge. I don't begrudge you that. The only burr there has ever really been under my saddle was that you felt you deserved better treatment than you got when you first came on this board... Whatever. I admit most folks get greeted a little more friendly-like, but then again most folks don't claim to have started their own style, nor do they claim lofty grades in multiple styles... Whatever.





> Some of your posts have intrigued me. Some have had some good info. Some have been a little too "pat myself on the back for the cool stuff I have done/experienced/seen." Whatever.



Your earlier term e-mugged was appropriate.  Everyone always reponds better to friendly conversation, and I am no different.  I think someone jumping on me in a series of 10 seperate,hostile posts before I had a fair opportunity to respond is a bit much.  

Nothing wrong with starting a new system if your motives are sincere.  Many people have done so in the past and many more will do so in the future.  Because of this you now enjoy the system you currently train in.  And why shouldn't you?  It's valid and means something to you.  No one should attempt to take that away from you or disparage it simply because it is new.

My rank and credentials are not as important to me as what I can do or teach.  If it bothers anyone then my advice is to simply disregard them.  I'm not scamming people for money, I'm not displaying them on the wall either.  As I've said, I charge very little and some I teach for free.  Teaching is my passion.  I feel my motivations are in order.

If you feel I have patted myself on the back, my apologies.  I try to word my posts carefully.  If I have done this, please show me where I have done so and we can discuss the matter.  Take care.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *No.  I think what Yilisifu said was that people that claim to teach an art that is governed by a particular organization should be registered with that organization.  He didn't say that they should be registered with their "root country."
> 
> 
> ...





Fine my mistake country, organization whatever. I think you got my point wich was that not every set of a style has to be affiliated with the original org., and if thier not does that mean that there not legit?


Public distrust no! At least not in florida. Your distrust maybe, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.


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## A.R.K. (May 1, 2003)

I think the point is that it is a mistake to believe that any organization _governs_  or can lay claim to govern any particular style or system.  Just because an organization _claims_  to does not make it true.  None of my Pangainoon instructors were asian.  They were American, European and Middle Eastern.  They simply trained in and taught a system, they did not feel the need to pledge loyalty to any particular organization.  Someone recognized them for their training and they in turn recognized me when they felt it was due.  Nothing wrong with this.

For any organization to claim anyone not of their organization is not legitimate is imho very arrogant.  They cannot enforce any such policy and in my opinion is merely a ploy to fill their coffers.  No one needs organizational affiliation.  They may chose it, but there is no requirment.  

:asian:


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## KennethKu (May 1, 2003)

I suppose I am now going to get to gether with a couple friends of mine over the weekend, and bestow onto each other the title of Grandmaster and then award each other 9th Dan in Shotokan.  When any one ask, we will just tell them that our Shotokan does not give a hoot to the Shotokan HQ in Japan.  That our titles are recognized by those we choose to associate with. And if you don't like it, you can come over and kiss our a$$.  Sounds like a great idea......


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## A.R.K. (May 1, 2003)

I suppose if it makes you feel good and you can look yourself in the mirror it would be fine.  Since no one here has done this it's a mute point.  There is far more to this world than Japan.  Quite a few countries have a solid martial arts tradition and can take pride in their accomplishments.  If you need a GM or an organization from Japan to recognize you to give your accomplishments value...wonderful.  By all means    I feel the qualities of the GM's and organizations in other countries are equal to their Japanese counterparts.  If anyone feels otherwise they are welcome to their opinions.

You elude to a bunch of guys sitting around 'awarding' themselves and each other.  Simply not the case and simply another example of looking at the unrealistic worst rather than trying to understand the actual truth.  




> Public distrust no! At least not in florida. Your distrust maybe, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it.



The public?  No.  All of my students are aware of the 'debate' here between both parties.  No one has left and in fact I have gain some by word-of-mouth.  Personal distrust perhaps based on other issues, but not public.  In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began.  They have been around the block for quite some time and are quite satisfied with my credentials, training and teaching.  Otherwise they wouldn't have sought me ought.  Doesn't make me special, but I offer training that they desire.  Funny thing is that the only people 'offended' are the few here that have no firsthand knowledge of me.  The ones that do know me personally are quite satisfied.  And many as I've said have extensive MA's backgrounds and are familar with the MA's community.  Unfair to judge someone over the internet.  More unfair to impose restrictive regulations such as Oriental organizational membership on a style practiced worldwide.

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began.*



So just since you have been on Martial Talk, you have been bequeathed a 2nd dan in Uechi-ryu (an art you already have studied up to 8th dan by studying Pangainoon?), and a 4th dan in an art called Tora Soma Do?

Not bad for only a few months of studying...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 1, 2003)

> So just since you have been on Martial Talk, you have been bequeathed a 2nd dan in Uechi-ryu (an art you already have studied up to 8th dan by studying Pangainoon?), and a 4th dan in an art called Tora Soma Do?



No sir, you have misread the post.   



> In fact I have gained a 2nd Dan in Uechi-Ryu and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began. They have been around the block for quite some time and are quite satisfied with my credentials, training and teaching. Otherwise they wouldn't have sought me ought



Two new students, one a 2nd Dan and the other a 4th Dan have come to my school for additional training.  Not 'I' have two new belt ratings.

I hope this clarifies the misunderstanding.  That is why I twice stated 'they' in the above post.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *I suppose I am now going to get to gether with a couple friends of mine over the weekend, and bestow onto each other the title of Grandmaster and then award each other 9th Dan in Shotokan.  When any one ask, we will just tell them that our Shotokan does not give a hoot to the Shotokan HQ in Japan.  That our titles are recognized by those we choose to associate with. And if you don't like it, you can come over and kiss our a$$.  Sounds like a great idea...... *





You crack me up! :rofl: :rofl: 

That's pricless.


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> * and a 4th Dan in Tora Soma Do since the whole thing began.  *



Dare I ask..just what is Tora Soma Do?



> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> * Funny thing is that the only people 'offended' are the few here that have no firsthand knowledge of me.  Unfair to judge someone over the internet.
> :asian: *



You have only been judged on what you have claimed.

You and DAC seem to keep thinking that mentioning your skill level and people that know you will somehow justify or qualify your claims to an 8th dan. 
It doesnt.
You have claimed an 8th dan in, for all intents and purposes, an Okinawan style that has said they have no one outside Okinawa qualified to give out 8th dans in their system.

You have also claimed you have no connection to Okinawa or any Asian organization for this rankwhich dismisses any connection to China, since last time I checked China was still in Asia.

You could be the best teacher most skilled martial artist in the world and it still wouldnt justify your claim to an 8th dan in Pangainoon. 

I would take your posts a lot more seriously if you had just said:

Hey, I am some guy in Florida that put a bunch of stuff together that I studied and think it works pretty good

No mumbojumbo about your great dai soke 8th dan gobble-de-guck.

But instead you made claims to being a Soke without really knowing what the word meant, claimed a 5th dan in what you adamantly claimed was a REAL Okinawan style, which actually doesnt exist in Okinawa, and claimed an 8th dan in Pangainoon from some mysterious/dubious place and refuse to cough up the persons name that awarded it to you because someone was "mean" to you on the Internet.

Did you think nobody would notice or question your claims??
Maybe you thought we would take it hook, line and sinker like other people have done.
I think you will find many people that post on this and other BBs have a more pragmatic look at MA claims these days.

As for your not telling who you were awarded certain dan grades by because I hurt your feelings..I wonder what would happen if scientist only let their work by corroborated/scrutinized by their close pals instead of the public at large.If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear.

For the most part I believe a majority of the people on this BBs are honest with their claims of training and rank, therefore, your failure to provide any information about things you claim only hurts your own credibility.


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *..   Someone recognized them for their training and they in turn recognized me when they felt it was due.  Nothing wrong with this. *



Nothing wrong with it as long as they are "qualified & recognized" to do so and according to the Pangainoon HQ in Okinawa there isnt anybody outside of the HQ "qualified & recognized" to promote up to 8th dan.





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *.. For any organization to claim anyone not of their organization is not legitimate is imho very arrogant.  They cannot enforce any such policy and in my opinion is merely a ploy to fill their coffers.  No one needs organizational affiliation.  They may chose it, but there is no requirment.  *




Let me see.Lets pretend I am Mas Oyama, founder of Kyokushin Kai, and someone claims to have gotten high rank in my association from some teacher that is not a member of my organization because that teacher doesnt feel the need to be belong to the HQ and be recognized (read TRAINED) by me, the bloody founder. Now I ask everyone reading thiswho do you think is more arrogant? The person claiming dan rank from a style/organization he has no connection with or the HQ that ask people to actually go to the trouble of actually training in his system and earning rank before they lay claim to rank.

If anyone has ever been to my WebPages there is a Trademark License symbol like this one ® next to the name of our style. There is a reason for this. It is merely to keep unscrupulous people from claiming rank or connection to my teachers association unless they actually are.
The use of this symbol was not really by choice but came out of necessity because certain people were claiming to have connection to my teacher that didnt and claim to teach his style, which they also did not and thereby using his name/likeness for their personal gain. . Unfortunately it is a necessity to have this symbol and doesn't reflect well on the morals of the MA world.

Now you may understand a bit more why I am so anti-bogus in the MA world, and against unsubstantiated claims to rank and title.


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## DAC..florida (May 2, 2003)

This is getting really old, cant we just move on to other topics!

RSK, Yiliquan1 and others. 
why cant you just realize that this debate will never give you the names you seek.

MRJ,
no matter what you say or do it will never be good enough, so why even bother. 

:goop:


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *This is getting really old, cant we just move on to other topics!
> 
> RSK, Yiliquan1 and others.
> why cant you just realize that this debate will never give you the names you seek.*



Whos looking for names?
At this point in time I know I could careless about names, however, the claims and why you think they are valid are still an issue.




> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *MRJ,
> no matter what you say or do it will never be good enough, so why even bother.
> 
> :goop: *



That's just it..........he hasn't said anything and he hasn't bothered to support his claims. 

All this would have been water under the bridge months ago if David Schultz would have just address the questions asked.
I had forgotten about this whole thing until Schultz mentioned my name in connection with Pangainoon. 
So if the blame for starting all this up again rests on anyone's shoulders it's his.


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## DAC..florida (May 2, 2003)

The famous question is who tested you for your *th dan in PN.
thats what I was refering to in the above question about NAMES!


I dont think that MRJ claims are real, I know who tested him all of his credentials are available to his students with names of his instructors ect. So I know his claims are real!


I remember the post that sparked it back up, and if Im not mistaken he was giving you credit for your alternative opinion?


You had forgotten this whole thing, now thats a crock if I ever heard one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 2, 2003)

*DAC* -

You need to re-read things I said upthread...  I haven't been asking for names of MRJ's teachers.  I do support those that are asking, as I think not providing them has caused far more trouble than MRJ ever wanted.  I do support those that are asking what organization(s) that governed the art(s) he claims rank in promoted him.  For someone that is so against organization membership, he certainly does belong to quite a few!  Seems that his arguments against organizational supervision are a bit hypocritical then...  Whatever.  Anymore, I really don't care.  I wouldn't have responded again, but you addressed me directly, so there you go...  

I pointed out that my main beef was MRJ acting as if he deserved some special recognition.  Whatever.  Dead issue.  But when he brings up his background, folks are going to smell the blood in the water and start asking again.  Simple math, really.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 2, 2003)

Peace and love :asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 2, 2003)

"There were two monks walking silently along one day.  They both had taken a vow of silence as well as abstaining from female contact.  As they travelled along they came to a stream where a young women was unable to cross due to the strong current.  One of the monks silently picked her up and carried her across the river saftely to the other side.  The two monks again proceeded on their journey.  However, the second monk couldn't believe the first had broken his vow by touching the female.  He thought about it and as the hours wiled away he became angrier and angrier.  Finally he could no longer contain it and broke his vow of silence by shouting at the first monk 'how could you DO that?'  The first monk broke his vow and softly said to his friend, 'I carried her for but a moment out of kindness....you have carried her for several hours now out of a hard heart.'"

Robert, you believe I have to belong to a certain organization to have validity...I do not.  You don't find me credable, others do.  I've accepted your apology.  I've been kind when you were down.  I've given you credit for information that even conflicts with what I've offered.  I've offered you my hand multiple times in friendship or at least peace.  We are not going to agree.  And as we are on opposite sides of this planet...it really shouldn't matter whether we agree or not.  If you don't want to believe my Dan is valid...then simply don't.  I don't need your belief, approval or acceptance.  My Dan is valid regardless of what you believe.  Since we are not going to agree....and we have already in great detail listed our opinions...how much longer will you continue to go over this matter?  That dog just won't hunt.

I will continue to offer my hand in friendship or at least peace.  How you respond will be entirely up to you.

Peace :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

Martial Arts, for better or worse, are self governing.
Meaning that uncorroborated claims of rank and title are put to the litmus test of the MA world as a whole. This does not mean just a select few people that have close personal contact with each other but a broader range of people.
Which is why people that promote each other always come under fire from the MA world.

Promoting someone outside of your own system is of a similar nature.
It would be extremely presumptuous to issue a rank in Shotokan, Goju etc if I were not qualified to do so. 

With the growth of the Internet came the growth of claims to bogus ranks and equally bogu titles and organizations. All of this boils down to is money or ego.or both.
Its amazing to see so many websites with people claiming ranks over 7th dan and not in just one art but in several. I have seen one individual claim at least 20 ranks over 7th dan  in various styles. This looks impressive to the uninitiated that have never trained or trained only a little and have no idea how hard it is to actually earn a single rank that high let alone several. 

The saddest part is that it looks as if these over ranked people can fool others into actually believing their deceptions or its possible the adage of birds of a feather flock together is true.
People that want high rank in a short period of time believe these over ranked people and will support their sensei to the bitter endthereby ensuring quick promotions even more for giving support and demonstrating their loyalty.
This is why you will rarely ever see someone question their over ranked/bogus ranked teacher about such things.
Lately it seems more often than not common sense often goes the way of the Dodo when rank and titles are concerned.


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *"There were two monks walking silently along one day.  They both had taken a vow of silence as well as abstaining from female contact.  As they travelled along they came to a stream where a young women was unable to cross due to the strong current.  One of the monks silently picked her up and carried her across the river saftely to the other side.  The two monks again proceeded on their journey.  However, the second monk couldn't believe the first had broken his vow by touching the female.  He thought about it and as the hours wiled away he became angrier and angrier.  Finally he could no longer contain it and broke his vow of silence by shouting at the first monk 'how could you DO that?'  The first monk broke his vow and softly said to his friend, 'I carried her for but a moment out of kindness....you have carried her for several hours now out of a hard heart.'"*



I read that same story in Zen Comics.
Thats not how the story goes.
The old monk that carried the girl over the river said to the young monk I left the girl at the river. Why do you still carry her?





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  Robert, you believe I have to belong to a certain organization to have validity...I do not. *



You claim on your website not only to belong to many organizations but to have founded some of them. Therefore your statement sounds a bit hypocritical.
In fact you belong to more than me or most folks on this board.




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   You don't find me credable, others do. *



Some folks find the leader of Aum Shinrikyu credible too.I dont.




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   My Dan is valid regardless of what you believe. *



You ask me to believe in something you wont let me corroborate.
Why should I believe you? 
Because you say so?


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## RyuShiKan (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Robert, ............I've offered you my hand multiple times in friendship or at least peace.  ..............I will continue to offer my hand in friendship or at least peace. *




To date you and DAC have insinuated several derogatory things about me personally on this BBs.....I find that form of friendship nauseating.


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## A.R.K. (May 2, 2003)

I agree with many of the points in your post.  I would be leary of anyone with twenty 7th Dans as well.  But Robert, please also understand that I am leary of any organization that state you must belong to them and pay them $.  Perhaps in some systems there are official governing organizations that can and do dictate policy for anyone in their art.  This has not been my experience...but hey, I've been wrong before  

I know there are arts out there that have a 'school' BB, a 'system' BB and the master organization's BB and it costs all three times for the recognition.  Perhaps this is what you are refering to Robert?  I just don't see where paying two or three fees offers more credibility Robert.  Would you not agree that it is what you can do and not what you can pay that counts?  We all have heard the stories of 'get on the plane a Shodan and walk off a Godan' becuase of money.  

I just don't know what to tell you my friend.  I started in Uechi Ryu and continued in an off-shoot of Pangainoon.  My training covers many years obviously with many different instructors in different parts of the world.  We simply did not belong to any organizations then.  And to be honest with you I did not even know there was a 'home office' in Okinawa.  It never crossed my mind and I don't feel my actual training lacked because of it.  Would you not agree that it is the intensity of training that is the priority and not paying dues to an organization half-way across the world?

If you still feel that I need organizational recognition for validity then what I have is merely a 'school' belt that has been awarded to me by those men in the arts far longer than I who felt I was worthy and ready.  If in your opinion that is insufficent then indeed in your eyes my belt has no meaning.  But look at it from my perspective Robert, I'm the one who has put in the training, the hours, the sweat and the blood.  I didn't just wake up one morning and say "I feel like an 8th Dan today, I think I'll start teaching karate".  I've trained now for over thirty years.  During that time I've taught over a thousand men and women from military to academies to dojo's.  I'm not an inexperienced no-rank fuzz butt    I've put in my time AND I've used what I know and can relate that experience on to my students to further their studies.  

I still feel, and always will that the belt is not what makes the man [or woman] but the training does.  The accomplishment means something to me because I'm the one that put in the effort.  To me a belt is merely a reflection of your training that others recognize in you and wish to award you with...and no I'm not talking about buddies in a mutual admiration gathering.  I'm talking fine, strong instructors throughout the years and in different countries.  

If this doesn't meet your standards then as I've said, dismiss them.  It's not like I'm harping on it or throwing it in your face my friend.  The certificates are truly in one of two boxes in my closet because what I can teach is more important that anything that I could hang on my wall.  If no one here wants to think of me with this certification...I'm fine with it.  It's not like I'm scamming people for money...I teach some people for free.  I don't have a nice dojo, I train hard core people in the side office of an abandoned building donated by the owner.  We don't care about wall candy or frills...we just want to train.

My credentials have been verified  by intense scrutiny by the organizations that I have chosen to belong to.  I didn't join them for the recognition, I joined them for the fellowship, networking opportunities, cross-training opportunities and collaberation of ideas.  I was not charged a penny in becoming a member of any of them.  

:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 2, 2003)

Regarding the story, either way it's listed...it still has a valid point.

In regards to organizations, I have listed above my reasons for joining them.  In regards to the two I've founded;

International League of Martial Arts Masters is an invitation only fellowship of individuals from around the world.  There is no charge for membership.  Members network, fellowship, cross-train and collaberate on ideas at no charge.

Gulf Coast Martial Artist Guild is charity based in the USA as well as other countries.  Every penny goes towards charity for children in the country the money is raised.  It offers rank advancement to those who have no other resourse IF we have a member of sufficient rank to review and promote in the network in the style the student is requesting testing in.  Almost for free...and the small amount asked for goes....to charity.

And my credentials have been verified and accepted by GM's all over the world and accepted into their membership....at no charge.  This negates any charge that I attended a mutual Dan promotion party or that I payed for my rank.

I've started a fellowshiping organization at no charge.

I've started an organization in which MA's can help children.  

*OMG...I'm really a greedy monster bend on destroying the martial arts as we know them.  No wonder you've hounded me for all these months!!!!!!!!!!!!*


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

Ryu...remember, this thread is about ryu...and I'm including everyone...

I happen to think David Lowry is credible...
I do think that I may have misinterpreted his chapter...

Regardless, I'm responsible for starting this thread because of comments made in another thread...at any rate, I don't want to distract from the important issue of warning others that there are those out there who are willing to say anything to take your money...even to the point of self promotion (or some facsimile of same)...

...and I don't want to keep seeing this issue return, over and over, and over and over, and over, and over...etc.

MRJ aka ZDW aka D.S.  has a dan ranking in something that used to be UechiRyu but has fractured from that organization and now wants to be Pangainoon...this organization, obviously, is not in any way connected to the Okinawan Pangainoon (the one with roots in China) Organization...so, of course his dan ranking won't be registered in Okinawa...

I'm OK with that...
Please, everyone, let it go...we are not advancing the cause of learning by continuing this circular argument...

Is his rank valid?

I don't care...can he teach? I do care...
Now, after seeing the cost of instruction, I am fairly confident that he's not using his rank to pad his bank account...like some other folks...

Is he authentic Pangainoon?

Only a real Pangainoon person would know...

I am still behind the idea of policing our own ranks...but this dead horse will be glue very soon.......

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (May 2, 2003)

After third dan, does it really make any difference?

It's all gravy and seniority at that point...at least in most organizations..........

chufeng


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## Matt Stone (May 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Ryu...remember, this thread is about ryu...and I'm including everyone...
> 
> ...
> ...



Oh, you're just no fun, you big self-policer you!  

So you gonna beat me tomorrow or what?  

I can sympathize with RyuShiKan's comments about the "good ol' boy" network in Japan.  He has seen quite a bit of it (ask him about the Budo seminar in Tokyo a few months back), and I saw the faintest hints of it during my time there.

I remember the Bujinkan folks being particularly bummed because Hatsumi wasn't recognized by the ryu recognizing folks in Japan because there was so little documentaion on the non-Ninjutsu stuff in Bujinkan training to produce valid authentication of his claims...  That was the organization I was speaking of.  I have also heard it mentioned that part of the reason that Hatsumi isn't accepted is because he claims to be a ninja...  Whatever.

Personally, I think it takes a few generations to have something die out or show its survivability.  Look at how many mini-mall dojos spring up teaching new and improved martial arts, but die out after a few years with no one to carry on the teachings...  BANG, bullet to the head, dead and out.  So for something to be legitimately considered a ryu, I would think it would have to "run the gauntlet" of time...  Not that that keeps it from being called a ryu from day one, but being _accepted_ as a ryu...  Well, to me, that's something else.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 2, 2003)

> Now, after seeing the cost of instruction, I am fairly confident that he's not using his rank to pad his bank account...like some other folks...



Cops and military aren't exactly overrun with wealth normally.  I charge $40 a month if you can afford it, if not I will teach you for free.  My income comes from the Sheriff and the college I teach at.

*After third dan, does it really make any difference?* 
*It's all gravy and seniority at that point...at least in most organizations..........* 

This has been my understanding normally.  Time in grade which seems to vary widely.  

Yiliquan 1,



> So for something to be legitimately considered a ryu, I would think it would have to "run the gauntlet" of time... Not that that keeps it from being called a ryu from day one, but being accepted as a ryu... Well, to me, that's something else



Valid statement.  My only experience is Uechi-Ryu and it was a ryu directly after Kanbun's death.  But some 56 years later it's going strong.  I don't know about other ryu such as Goju etc in regards to when they became a ryu or how long they've been around??


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## KennethKu (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _......
> Is he authentic Pangainoon?
> 
> Only a real Pangainoon person would know...



In the old days, a Pangainoon enforcer from Japan would be booking passage to America by now.  After the swelling in his eyes had gone down enough, certain individual might come to the conclusion that prudence is a better part of valor, and would not claim titles and ranks in vain again.


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## Matt Stone (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *In the old days, a Pangainoon enforcer from Japan would be booking passage to America by now.  After the swelling in his eyes had gone down enough, certain individual might come to the conclusion that prudence is a better part of valor, and would not claim titles and ranks in vain again. *



Ahhh, the good old days...  Not sure they were so good, but things certainly were done differently. 

I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting."  They go to a questionable school, during a nice, busy class, and challeng the instructor to put up or shut up.

With today's overly litigious society, that isn't always the wisest thing to do, but it certainly cuts back on the mini-mall frauds...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting."  They go to a questionable school, during a nice, busy class, and challeng the instructor to put up or shut up.
> *




Does that kind of thing still go on?
Anybody you know ever done that?


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## MartialArtist (May 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Does that kind of thing still go on?
> Anybody you know ever done that? *


I can imagine that you can get lots of satisfaction in dojo busting...  It's a mixture of military/LEO/human and social services put together.  Human and social services, with fighting frauds.  What is the world coming to?


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## SteelShadow (May 4, 2003)

Yes it goes on still.I had first opened my school in alabama been open about a month when some students from a school about 15 miles away came calling one night.They interupted my class and openly challenged me.It finaly ended up on the mat Only one of them realy wanted to fight the other was there for kicks I think.The altercation lasted about 2 minets When it was over the one that didnt fight appoligized and they left.The next day I went and saw the head instructor of the other school I knew him somewhat personaly I explained what had happened.And he exspelled the two students without a second thought.They then tried to come join my school I turned them away.There is no call for this kind of thing its stupid.Its only done for ego reasons and to try to prove your a big shot.If they have any honor about them or respect for the martial arts this would not happen.So they think someone is a fraud big deal.They dont have to train there or even go there for that matter.

I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.

Sorry for the long rant I feel very passionate about the arts all arts.And its the kinda morons that do things like dojo busting that Hurts the martial arts in general.

just my thoughts .....


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## Deaf (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I remember the Bujinkan folks being particularly bummed because Hatsumi wasn't recognized by the ryu recognizing folks in Japan because there was so little documentaion on the non-Ninjutsu stuff in Bujinkan training to produce valid authentication of his claims...  That was the organization I was speaking of.  I have also heard it mentioned that part of the reason that Hatsumi isn't accepted is because he claims to be a ninja...  Whatever.*



huh?? When was this?  Funny if you ask me because the Bujinkan is MADE up of 9 different Ryu. and from what I understand...there is plenty of documentation (scrolls etc) regarding those Ryu except for the ninjutsu based.

This is a first that I have heard about it but then again I don't hear much! 

I seriously doubt it bummed us out that bad.  

~Deaf~


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## RyuShiKan (May 4, 2003)

The question is not in the scrolls themselves, but in rather how Hatsumi obtained them and whether or not he really studied the material within them from somebody or merely imitated the rudimentary drawings that are inside.


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## KennethKu (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *Yes it goes on still.I had first opened my school in alabama been open about a month when some students from a school about 15 miles away came calling one night.They interupted my class and openly challenged me.It finaly ended up on the mat Only one of them realy wanted to fight the other was there for kicks I think.The altercation lasted about 2 minets When it was over the one that didnt fight appoligized and they left.The next day I went and saw the head instructor of the other school I knew him somewhat personaly I explained what had happened.And he exspelled the two students without a second thought.They then tried to come join my school I turned them away.There is no call for this kind of thing its stupid.Its only done for ego reasons and to try to prove your a big shot.If they have any honor about them or respect for the martial arts this would not happen.So they think someone is a fraud big deal.They dont have to train there or even go there for that matter.
> 
> I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.
> ...



If you were the real deal, you would not be afraid of challenge to your skills. In fact if you were a real teacher of your art, you would welcome the opportunity to enlighten the uninformed young bucks.  Your bitterness surprises me.


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## Kirk (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *If you were the real deal, you would not be afraid of challenge to your skills. In fact if you were a real teacher of your art, you would welcome the opportunity to enlighten the uninformed young bucks.  Your bitterness surprises me. *



Enlightening them could have resulted in a law suit, and killing his
way of making a living.


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## KennethKu (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Enlightening them could have resulted in a law suit, and killing his
> way of making a living. *



That would be the case if you stink at your art and cannot control the extent of force used. :asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> *I would like to know who gives the people that do these dojo bustings the authority or the right to just disrespect someones dojo or school.There chumps and punks.That dosnt deserve to be called martial artists.there simply bullies under another guise.And sooner or later they gonna run across the wrong person and get carried from a school instead of being able to walk out.
> 
> Sorry for the long rant I feel very passionate about the arts all arts.And its the kinda morons that do things like dojo busting that Hurts the martial arts in general.
> ...



Well, once upon a time, this was the norm...  If a new school opened up, the instructor was in for quite the initiation.  Every local instructor and a few of his top students would be showing up to see whether the new guy had anything under his belt.  If he didn't, the school ended up closing.

Even further back than that, especially in Japanese tradition, it was accepted for someone of skill to visit other teachers/fighters, and challenge them.  The ones he beat, he left.  The ones that beat him, he asked to teach him.  That is just how it was...  

I understand the fear of lawsuits and such, but actually I believe this kind of practice strengthens the arts, rather than weakens them.  At least, it strengthens the real arts.  The arts that are taught to 8 year olds and tournament hounds may well be adversely impacted...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (May 4, 2003)

Back in the early days of karate (and kung-fu to some degree), this kind of thing was not at all uncommon.  Sometimes another teacher would send his senior students in to "test the waters."  I had this kind of thing happen to me more than once.

   I agree with Yiliquan 1; it actually helps strengthen the martial arts.  As things are nowadays, virtually anybody can buy a black belt and hang out a shingle and declare himself a 14th degree Ultra-cosmic Grandmaster...
   If the "old days" were back, this wouldn't be so common...


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## James Kovacich (May 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Ahhh, the good old days...  Not sure they were so good, but things certainly were done differently.
> 
> I know of several people who are still around that participated in, and continue to participate in, "dojo busting."
> ...



My Sifu has done that but not for those reasons. Theres a disrespectful political mess that came out of the Oakland JKD school. Sifu has (honorably) confronted several Sifu in their schools in front of their students beause they trash talked about his father and the way he teaches. His father and himself even approached them at  their "gathering" of the of them all in one place at one time because they had talked about their teachings. 

They pulled their peers out from their seats and "showed" them what they've done with their art.

"IF YOU PLAY, YOU HAVE TO BE READY TO PAY!"

I have the tape, it was completely respectable the way Sifu and Sigung represented themselves.

One more thing. I know I've said it before but when people this or that about their technique, Sifu always says, "show me."
Its simple and straight to the point.


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## yilisifu (May 4, 2003)

Yes.  A friend of mine many eons ago had a teacher (7-star mantis) who was Chinese.  They lived on the east coast.  It was common for his teacher to walk in to other kung-fu schools and politely introduce himself and then ask the teacher (with a smile), "Wanna fight?"


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## SteelShadow (May 4, 2003)

For one I have no fear of being challenged.Theres is only two outcomes I win or I lose.

Second I do not make my living teaching I do it because I love it I barely make enough to cover the schools bills.

I have no problem with someone wanting to test my skills as long as they dont come in disrespecting me my students or my school.

Also I never even considered leagal action against the students that came calling on me.Nor would I have if I had lost the fight.
It wouldnt be the first time in my life I had lost a fight.And in all reality probably wont be the last.

My problem isnt with a friendly test of skill even if that test is all out .I think its a great way to exchange martial techniques and training ideas.
My problem is with the ones that come barging in direspectfully 
Demanding a fight.They are no diffrent then a bully on the street or the drunk in a bar whos always picking a fight.And deserve to be treated as such.

In alot of cases by doing such a thing as dojo crashing the attacking person isnt seen as a better martial artist. Simply as a bully or egomaniac  looking for gratification.

Not only is it disrespectfull.To those that would use it in most cases its illeagal.And in my book down right wrong.

I have known instructors I felt were frauds but I wouldnt go to there school and jump on them for it.

And anyone who would go around trying to beat people up because they dont agree with them or think there a fraud.Needs to look inside thereself and see what insecurity is driving them.

A true warrior or martial artist not only knows how to fight but when and for what reasons to fight.


Just my thoughts....


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## A.R.K. (May 5, 2003)

Those that go about disrespecting others, expecially in front of students, are the ones with issues.  Perhaps this was done in other places, in other times, but it does not make it right.  In this country as with others people can sue for *anything*  and often do.  Look at any website that deals with frivolous law suits for a more indepth understanding.  It is a lose-lose situation.  Comments such as Ken's



> That would be the case if you stink at your art and cannot control the extent of force used.



Are unrealistic at best.  Ken if someone went to your school and challenged you and you won they could initiate a law suit against you claiming injury.  Remember a perception can be as damaging as a reality.

And Martial Arts are suppose to be for *defense only.*   With the  exception of duty-related careers.  To fight brings no honor and no glory.  You can talk about unskilled teachers and mall dojo's etc all that you like, but *time*  will test them far better than fighting.

This is the *code*  I teach and also every reputable instructor that I am aware of world-wide.  Defense only [with the exception of tournaments, which I see as pointless and hypocritical].  If we teach others to walk in peace...we should be setting the example to the nth degree as instructors.

My opinion :asian:


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## KennethKu (May 5, 2003)

You are incorrect.   I am surprised that someone who claims to have founded an art, does not realize there is such thing called a liability waiver.  In addition, by law, when you engage in an activity that involves a substantial amount of risk, you ASSUME the liability of being injured.  Therefore you have waived your right to held others responsible, by knowingly engaging in activities, which you knew or should have known, to be very likely to cause you injury.  That, with a legal waiver you sign, releasing the owner/operator of injury, UNLESS such injury is the result of GROSS or obvious negligent of the part of the owner/operator, such as, but not limited to, faulty eguipment, slippery floor, etc.

I believe the ol saying about Never to take legal advice from cops, is valid.


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## KennethKu (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Those that go about disrespecting others, expecially in front of students, are the ones with issues.  Perhaps this was done in other places, in other times, but it does not make it right.  In this country as with others people can sue for anything  and often do.  Look at any website that deals with frivolous law suits for a more indepth understanding.  It is a lose-lose situation.  Comments such as Ken's
> 
> 
> ...


 

Kind of concerned that someone might indeed show up at your school?


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## KennethKu (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by SteelShadow _
> ......And anyone who would go around trying to beat people up because they dont agree with them or think there a fraud.Needs to look inside thereself and see what insecurity is driving them.
> 
> A true warrior or martial artist not only knows how to fight but when and for what reasons to fight.
> ....



Busting fraud seems to be a worthy cause, wouldn't you think?


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## A.R.K. (May 5, 2003)

> You are incorrect. I am surprised that someone who claims to have founded an art, does not realize there is such thing called a liability waiver



No, I am correct despite your juvenille quip.  A liabiltiy waiver only goes so far, that is why there is liability insurance.  And the current topic was someone from outside the school comming in to 'bust' the school.  "Yeah Mr. tough guy I'll fight you...but first you gotta sign my school's liability waiver" :shrug: 



> I believe the ol saying about Never to take legal advice from cops, is valid.



Not legal advice, it's common sence.  In this country you can be sued for just about anything.  And Jury's are a funny thing when awarding settlements.  



> Kind of concerned that someone might indeed show up at your school?



No one has yet...why don't you be the first? 



> Busting fraud seems to be a worthy cause, wouldn't you think?



Sure...if you approach actually accomplished this _cause._  :shrug:   As it is it doesn't, it just gives an excuse to let the testosterone fly.  Abilities vary from style to style and person to person.  One person 'besting' another in combat doesn't prove fraud it proves 'any given day'.  

And again defeats the purpose of training in the martial arts...defense only.  

You seem intend on keeping old arguements alive and bringing into the conversation cute little shots at me.  Are you that insecure with yourself.  You got a problem then act like a man and email it to me.  Time for these discussions to return to the topic at hand.

Your welcome at any time to stop by my school and discuss it face to face instead of from the safety of your computer keyboard.  I'll be more than happy to email you directions and the times I'm there to discuss any problem you may have personally.  Is this the dreaded 'internet challenge'...nope.  Just making myself accessable to you should you desire to come by and 'bust me'.     Since you can't leave it alone.....

I've earned everything I have.  Don't like it....to bad and so sad.  Try and do something about it :soapbox:


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## Matt Stone (May 5, 2003)

While admittedly this is a different time and place from the time honored tradition of "dojo busting," we have to remember that there is a public face and a private face to the things we do...

Publicly, we should denounce such behaviors.  Publicly, we could sue or be sued for nearly anything we do in the school, whether we have signed a waiver or not.

Privately, however, the tradtion continues.  Privately, the tradition _should_ continue.  It is an inbuilt check and balance to ensure folks don't go setting up shop in a mini-mall without some form of recourse should they turn out to be blatant frauds who endanger their students and the public with their false instruction.

Admittedly, when challenging such a teacher, it shouldn't be done with a "hey, buddy, I'm gonna clean your clock" attitude.  It should be done (somewhat) respectfully.  More along the lines of "what you teach is questionable at best - it is time to prove the validity of what you are selling" or words to that effect.

It shouldn't be taken personally by either side.  The side being challenged should look at it as an opportunity to earn respect the hard way, the way that it cannot be questioned.  The side challenging it should approach it impersonally, and with no sense of vengeance but a sense of equanimity.  

The two engage.  The two disengage.  Should the challenger be the victor, the proof of the loser's skills stand on record.  Should the challenger be defeated, the challenged's skill stand on record, and the challenger should apologize and move on.

There are right ways and wrong ways to do darn near everything.  And so it is with this.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 5, 2003)

Yiliquan 1,

The way you have put it is different than the way I initially took this topic.  Thank you for clarifying it.  

:asian:


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## yilisifu (May 5, 2003)

There used to be an actual formal method(s) of doing it.


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## Matt Stone (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Yiliquan 1,
> 
> The way you have put it is different than the way I initially took this topic.  Thank you for clarifying it.
> ...



A guy walks into my class.  He stands with his arms crossed, leaning back on one leg, sneering and smirking toward my students and me.  He walks purposefully toward me, pokes a finger into my chest, and proclaims loudly "I think Yiliquan sucks!  I could take you any day of the week."

This guy is nothing more than a bully, an ***, and the next ER trauma patient...

A guy walks into my class, stands unobtrusively in the rear of the waiting area, and watches the class.  Toward the end of class, he quietly motions toward me to speak with him privately.  I do so.  He tells me "you are new in the area, and your qualifications and reputation fail to precede you.  I would like to test your skills."

This guy deserves a chance to prove both his _and_ my skills by allowing a contest to occur.

The first guy, I hospitalize to teach him a lesson.  The second guy, I give my best within limits agreed upon beforehand.

There is a right way to dojo bust, even when the school you are busting is a well known internet fraud/cult (a la Chung Moo Doe or the like).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## yilisifu (May 5, 2003)

That would be very appropriate.  I've run into both types.


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## KennethKu (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> No, I am correct despite your juvenille quip.  A liabiltiy waiver only goes so far, that is why there is liability insurance.  And the current topic was someone from outside the school comming in to 'bust' the school.  "Yeah Mr. tough guy I'll fight you...but first you gotta sign my school's liability waiver" :shrug:



I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard  liability waiver.  




> Not legal advice, it's common sence.  In this country you can be sued for just about anything.  And Jury's are a funny thing when awarding settlements.
> 
> No one has yet...why don't you be the first?
> 
> ...


 

How typical.  The same tactic that used on attacking Ryushikan previously.  But in accordance with the wishes of the administrators of Martial Talk.com , I would not respond to such outburst.  To comment on MartialTalk.com regarding whether I would engage on physical confrontation, would not serve the purpose of the forum and would put the administrators in an undesirable position.

There was a time I have a standing invitation to all the BB's as well as masters and grandmasters from a certain organization to any fight. I have even listed my home address.   

As they say,  becareful what you ask for, you might get it.


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## Matt Stone (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard  liability waiver.*



Liability waivers can be litigated around...  They don't absolve the instructor, the school, the business, or the students from all potential criminal or civil action.

Signing one is a good step toward prevention, but if a student gets rowdy and kicks another student in the head while he is down, student A better have a lawyer in the family since it could be argued that such action was not an expected occurrance during training, nor was such activitiy sanctioned by the school or reasonably expected nor explained.

The waiver then means d*ck.

Just an observation...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## KennethKu (May 5, 2003)

Waivers do not absorb you from gross neglience, intentional fraud, nor intentionally inflicted harm . It is not a "get out of jail free" card nor a license to kill.  It is a "cover your ***" basic step.  You need it to demonstrate to the court that you have done your share to inform the other party of the risk involved.


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## RyuShiKan (May 5, 2003)

Dojo yaburi (dojo busting) was not always done by bullies, in fact quite the opposite.
Before the days of tournaments and other rule laden events people had no out let in which to test themselves so they would go to a dojo and  request a match with members of that dojo. This was common practice in Okinawa up until several years ago and matches were either accepted or declined. Miyamoto Musashi, Motbu Choki and others did this sort of thing.

Its my opinion that after seeing The Chinese Connection with Bruce Lee and his famous dojo yaburi seen (which Jackie Chan is one of the stuntmen in BTW) people got the wrong idea about this practice and tried to imitate itmore often than not unsuccessfully too.


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## RyuShiKan (May 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *How typical.  The same tactic that used on attacking Ryushikan previously. *


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## Bob Hubbard (May 5, 2003)

Anyone with a good enough lizard can get around the waivers, especially in a society where people win lawsuits after purposly dipping their hands in 370' oil at a fast food shop.  

I think  Yiliquan1 hit the 'dojobusting' bit head on.  Well said.

:asian:


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## SteelShadow (May 5, 2003)

With the scenario yiliquan1 has given I would have no problem with it is respectfull and curtious.And even if deafeted the challenged person was respected.And the challenger was also respected by having his challenge excepted.


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## Matt Stone (May 5, 2003)

Go Me!

No, seriously, this board and others like it are for sharing information.  Sometimes that information is hard to take, sometimes that information is historical or academic, sometimes it is archaic and nearly forgotten.

But ultimately, we are all here to enjoy each other's company and to walk away learning something new.  

So here's the something new - 

Martial arts and martial artists were *not* the exclusive playground of the intellectual or the spiritualist.  They were, for the most part, the purvue of fighters, soldiers, criminals and thugs.  Sometimes egos got/get involved, sometimes people that shouldn't be trusted to walk the street were trusted with valuable and dangerous information.

***** happens, y'know?

But, sometimes there are accepted rules for things.  Like war, for instance.  We all agree to play by certain rules that benefit us all.  Dojo busting benefits us all, by providing an inbuilt check and balance that'll keep the non-fighters from showing their faces in public and endangering innocent people with their BS teaching.  By dojo busting in a particular manner, we allow ourselves the opportunity, should we be the ones being challenged, to win or lose gracefully and with some shred of dignity.

Just simple rules of engagement, nothing more.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Ken,



> I am surprised that as instructor, you have failed to require any participants in your dojang/dojo/whatever, to sign the standard liability waiver



I don't believe I ever said that I don't require a student to sign a waiver.  It is required by the insurance that I carry.  But as noted above by several....they are not 'bullet proof' in court.  Merely a step towards protecting oneself.  I have the waiver...but also the insurance.



> As they say, becareful what you ask for, you might get it.



I am very careful...as should you be.  You may question my wall candy all that you like.  My experience is quite another thing.   Don't question what your not prepared to test.

Yiliquan 1,

Have to give credit where it is due, good post.  In your second scenerio, a valuable learning experience could occur on both sides.  There is always room to grow and learn.  If I attend a seminar and learn just one new thing, or a variation of something I do know then I count it as time well spent.  I seek out cross-training at every opportunity.  

In your second scenerio they might just discover a good friendship.  A cherished thing.

 :asian:


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## Mike Clarke (May 6, 2003)

This thread is going all over the place, still, the subject of dojo yaburi reminded me of when I first relocated to Australia from England back in 1988. A local goju-ryu instructor objected to my arrivel and burst through the door of my first class with two of his 'friends' to, as they use to say in the old cowboy films, "Run me out of town!"

I was 'so' upset,let me tell you. After a brief exchange of words [he was yelling, and I was trying not to laugh], he left. I was quite happy to fight him, though my wife who was standing near by was less pleased with the prospect. He left, but not before he issued those [now] immortal words, "I'll be back."

This was my introduction to 'traditional karate' here in Australia.
I'd never heard of such things going on back in England and quiet frankly I found the whole thing a joke. What this guy expected to get out of the encounter was beyond me? Even if he and his friends had managed to give me a good kicking, I'd have just recovered and then run them down in my car a few months later!

Some martial arts folks need to get a life 

Mike.

ps. He never did come back. [Lier,lier, pants on fire]


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

I have had more than a few people come to my dojo to check me out.
One person was a 4th or 5th dan in Uechi Ryu and his father had studied from Uechi Kanbun.

Long story short, he asked what I would do if someone did this or that and I said I couldnt say until it actually happened.
He tried to hit me and wound up looking very closely at the flooring of my dojo in a fair amount of pain, (oddly enough I had used the same technique on him I had just shown one of my students.) I told him I guess I would do that.
He exclaimed I cheated and couldnt do that in a tournament. I told him I didnt know I was in a tournament and added it was my dojo and I could do whatever I damn well pleased.
He actually became my student for a while and later my business partner. We ran a chain of English Schools for several years. 


Another guy came in and had some pretty decent sized calluses built up on his knuckles and I asked him if he had trained. He said a long time ago. One thing about calluses is they dont stay for long so I knew this guy was up to something.
He joined for several months and had never seen nor heard of tuite or any grappling type stuff from kata so he was very keen on learning it. Then one day I happened to be walking to my dojo and notice some people carrying Gis, I asked them were their dojo was and they took me there.
Well guess whos dojo I just happened to stumble on..yup. Mr. Knuckles that claimed he trained a long time ago..turns out he was a 6th dan in Shotokai and had been running a dojo for the last 15 years or so.
I caught him in mid class and he was trying to teach the tuite I had shown him while he was at my dojo.
He was actually teaching it in correctly..so I walked into his dojo with my shoes on, went straight up to him and said to him so the class could hear"If your going to teach what I taught you at least teach it the proper way I showed you.I told him to get in line with the students and then I took over teaching his class for that night. Afterwards I told him not to come back to my dojo as he wouldnt be welcome because he had lied to me.


Fun, fun, fun in the Land of the Rising Sun.....


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## tshadowchaser (May 6, 2003)

The days of "dojo busting" are not that far behind us.  As has been stated there where formal and acccepted ways of trying out the new instructor.  Some instructors even would allow a 1 month open challange to all that wanted to come in.  He either won and kept the school open or closed. 
The person that comes in and quietly watched then asked to try your skills was polite and you might even becomes friends after. 
  Beating arms was also another test of skill in some areas.
 As for insurance and waiver and the court systems.  If a person willingly signs a waiver and nothing out of the ordinary happens but he is still injured that is one thing, but if you trow him to the floor and then stomp on his head half a dozen times that is beyound the scoop of the waiver.  It comes down to what a resonable person can expect after watching the class and being told how violent the class is.
 Yes I have been challanged and yes I have been the challanger in years past. Thats another srory and maybe something I might handle differently today, but back then you closed down schools that where not ligit.
Shadow   :asian:


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## KennethKu (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> ....Don't question what your not prepared to test....



I would and I have questioned Blackbelts, Masters as well as Grandmasters. I have publicly called into question their patriotism, loyalty, honestly etc, when the circumstances warranted.  Yes, I used my real name and I have revealed my address with a standing invitation to take up any challenger who would want to bash my head in. (Granted, that wasn't exaclty a prudent endeavour.)  Being there done that.  With this being an internet forum, administrators do not look favourably towards members who hook up to lock horn.  Therefore, I wouldn't say any more.


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## KennethKu (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _..... It comes down to what a resonable person can expect after watching the class and being told how violent the class is.....



That is the legal test, ie "what a reasonable person would expect".


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## zen_hydra (May 6, 2003)

My brother and I have, for a while now, been trying to convince our Sifu to allow us to go do a little unofficial "dojo busting."  Many of the schools around here specialize in wushu-like "black-belt teams," and call themselves Martial Art Studios.  Here in San Antonio there is a real glut of crap martial arts, and it offends my sense of taste.  I am a believer that people who train in an art, and/or claim to train others in an art, need to be ready to defend their claims through their art.  In this case the art is a martial one.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Ken,

Perhaps, perhaps not.  Your comment is easy to make and hard to verify however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and let the matter pass.  I also have 'been there'.  Not a difficult feat in today's world unfortunately.  

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Ken,
> 
> Perhaps, perhaps not.  Your comment is easy to make and hard to verify *



Like so many other claims made on this board.


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## Mike Clarke (May 6, 2003)

You got that right! 

Mike.


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## KennethKu (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Ken,
> 
> Perhaps, perhaps not.  Your comment is easy to make and hard to verify however, I will give you the benefit of the doubt and let the matter pass.  I also have 'been there'.  Not a difficult feat in today's world unfortunately.
> ...



I am not particularly proud of it. I didn't bring it up as a brag. As I have mentioned, it ain't the smartest thing to do. I would rather forget the whole thing.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

RSK,

You have to admit though that your 'constructive critisism' is being met favorably by me.  I don't mind being educated...I just don't like being 'pushed'.  In that light we have decided to adopt a name that has no Asian influence so as not to be grammatically incorrect.  Simply an American name.  Same system, same training, same target audience just a different name, rank structure, titles etc.  In this way we can show pride in our country as well as respect those in which we have recieved training i.e America, Asia, Canada, Europe and the Middle East.  

We are not going to stress or use belt ranks or terms, rather the training itself will be the only focus.  An individual will be either a practitioner or an Instructor.  We hardly wore belts anyway.  

As I've said, anymore I honestly don't put any stock in anyone's rank.  I don't say this out of disrespect to anyone.  But let's be honest, what the wall candy says doesn't necessarily relate to teaching ability or practical ability in a real world altercation.  I still 'stand by' my wall candy...but it is where it belongs, in a box.  I feel my teaching skill should speak for me in training not paper on the wall.  That is just my opinion and where I'm at in this period of my life.  Anybody can challenge anyone's 'credentials' but it is another thing entirely with actual skill.  Seeing is truly believing and I prefer to let my skill and teaching ability speak for me.

I will thank you RSK and several of the others sincerely for assisting with the direction we have taken.  Hopefully we can coexist here in peace and perhaps continue to learn what is offered by each other.  

I've asked Bob to perhaps change my screen name to reflect the new one.  Peace :asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Ken,

I'm all for letting all hard feelings pass.  Life is to short.  I hold no ill will towards anyone and have thanked many when I felt it appropriate.  I have tried to listen to constructive critisism when given sincerely.  I have adjusted when appropriate.  

I feel my background is solid, my credentials valid.  And yes...I've been stubborn towards some.  But I would rather let my posts and my actions speak for me.  I'm not perfect but then no one is.  Things lately seem to have been going peacfully and positively...I'd like to see the trend continue and contribute to it as well.

Take care.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   We are not going to stress or use belt ranks or terms, rather the training itself will be the only focus.  An individual will be either a practitioner or an Instructor.  We hardly wore belts anyway. *




Really?

Then why the belts (and patches) from the following photos taken from you website? Gotta love those patches......gives it that NASCAR look.


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

and here


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

this is you with a belt on, isn't it?


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

RSK,

Nice???...

...but, since MRJ is still in transition it is unlikely that he has recent photos for his web-page...

Give him enough time to tie up the loose ends.

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

MRJ...

If you would close the distance between you and the bad guy, you would have a more effective technique...

Yes, you apparently got it...but a trained individual would be out of that in less than a second...way too much room...

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *As I've said, anymore I honestly don't put any stock in anyone's rank. *



I still find your statement ironic since you claim to have some of the highest dubious rank on this board.and not just in a single art. So for not putting much stock in rank you sure do claim a lot of it.




> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  But let's be honest,  *



You mean you werent being honest before.





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *  what the wall candy says doesn't necessarily relate to teaching ability or practical ability in a real world altercation. *



In most dojo where it is earned over years of practice, as opposed to getting it from your friends, it does have some correlation to ability.





> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   I still 'stand by' my wall candy...but it is where it belongs, in a box. *



What is all that stuff in the background?
Looks like the wall candy escaped from its box.


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *MRJ...
> 
> If you would close the distance between you and the bad guy, you would have a more effective technique...
> ...




Agreed. You also might want to place your arms closer to your body because the farther you are out stretched the weaker your arms are and the less torque you can use with your torsoalso stand up a bit straighter or you will get cracked in the face for sure. This is yet another reason I doubt your claims to rank, you claim a 5th dan, 7th dan and an 8th dan and yet havent got the very basic body mechanics, and distancing to deliver a white belt level techniquewhich that is in many styles.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Well some people are just a-holes no matter how nice you try to be to them...and yes RSK I'm talking about you.

Chufeng is correct in that the pictures are old ones, years old in some cases.  The patches on some of their uniforms were for demonstrations.  The 'wall candy' in the background has nothing to do with me or the class.  That is when we trained at the F.O.P. lodge [Fraternal Order of Police].  They had a car entered in the local races and had trophies and other trinkets displayed.  We only used the room for training...the decorations were theirs!

The belts were worn for the photos..we didn't wear them normally.  At the time we wanted a martial arts atmosphere, we no longer do.  

The photo is merely demonstrating a shoulder lock 'in process' not complete.  I know how to take someone down with a shoulder lock, I've been doing so for over a decade.  Completed he would be flat on the ground.

I've tried to be nice. I've tried to get along.  I've looked for peace.  I've complimented when appropriate.  Chufeng, I've got no problem with you.  RSK your an idiot.  Mods forgive me, but enough is enough...he's an idiot.  

You don't like me RSK...to damn bad.  You don't like my credentials..who cares?  Your a dojo warrior with a big mouth and a lousy attitude.  To me your the wanna-be because I doubt you have little if any real world experience.   You just stick to your little dojo and your little criticisms and do what you do best bad mouth people rather than look to the positive and seek peace.  

Your the real joke


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

I don't want to debate rank again...

I do think that a trained individual would have ZERO daylight between himself and the bad guy, though... 

The more training, the more rank, the less distance...

Simplify...simplify...

...as the body becomes weaker, one needs to use the advantage of leverage and being centered...do not extend your arms...bring all techniques back to your own center...that is how to control someone when you are an old broken down fart like me... 

chufeng


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

MRJ,



> The belts were worn for the photos..we didn't wear them normally.



I don't really care how you want to rank you, or your students...

BUT, wearing a belt has a purpose...a VERY IMPORTANT purpose...

...it teaches you HOW to breathe...

The breath controls the action...if your breathing is wrong, your technique is wrong...the belts are a way to teach breathing...rank??? every student KNOWS who his teacher is.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *The belts were worn for the photos..we didn't wear them normally.  At the time we wanted a martial arts atmosphere, we no longer do.*



Personally, I don't see anything wrong with belts...  make them all the same color, if you want to do away with rank, but belts are meant to be training tools.  Without a belt, learning proper breath control is considerably more difficult.



> *The photo is merely demonstrating a shoulder lock 'in process' not complete.  I know how to take someone down with a shoulder lock, I've been doing so for over a decade.  Completed he would be flat on the ground.*



Either way, in progress or complete, there is too much air between you.  The person in question has plenty of opportunity at that transition point to escape.  At the point in the picture, it looks like all that is being manipulated with any great degree of discomfort is the wrist - the should still has mobility.  Controlling his descent by being right next to him will help to accelerate his facial meeting with the pavement.

Just my thoughts as a beginner.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *every student KNOWS who his teacher is.*



Everyone is my teacher, especially when they aren't.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Chufeng and Yiliquan 1,

I don't think we are on the same sheet of music here.  What picture are you talking about?  Your talking wrist I'm talking shoulder lock....

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

Picture above of you wearing a red top while manipulating a man wearing a white t-shirt.


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   Well some people are just a-holes no matter how nice you try to be to them...and yes RSK I'm talking about you.
> 
> Chufeng is correct in that the pictures are old ones, years old in some cases.  The patches on some of their uniforms were for demonstrations.  The 'wall candy' in the background has nothing to do with me or the class.  That is when we trained at the F.O.P. lodge [Fraternal Order of Police].  They had a car entered in the local races and had trophies and other trinkets displayed.  We only used the room for training...the decorations were theirs!
> ...




Everything seems to conviently not be what it appears in those photos.
As you said yourself.


> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Your comment is easy to make and hard to verify.... *







> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *   RSK your an idiot.  Mods forgive me, but enough is enough...he's an idiot.
> You don't like me RSK...to damn bad.  You don't like my credentials..who cares?  Your a dojo warrior with a big mouth and a lousy attitude.  To me your the wanna-be because I doubt you have little if any real world experience.   You just stick to your little dojo and your little criticisms and do what you do best bad mouth people rather than look to the positive and seek peace.
> Your the real joke  *



Not only did you not use your center in that technique photo you are not using it here. You have let yourself become angry. I would think someone with as much real-life experiences as you claim would have more self-control and not let yourself get riled by an idiot.


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

> You don't like me RSK...to damn bad. You don't like my credentials..who cares? Your a dojo warrior with a big mouth and a lousy attitude. To me your the wanna-be because I doubt you have little if any real world experience. You just stick to your little dojo and your little criticisms and do what you do best bad mouth people rather than look to the positive and seek peace.



No...RSK is not a wannabe...he is the real deal...maybe uncouthe, maybe a bit stuck on busting those who claim more than the traditional arts and artists from the "old country" ever would dare to claim...but a wannabe...NOT...

I view RSK as a brother in traditional martial arts.
I view you as someone with some skill who is trying to establish himself...
I've given you the benefit of doubt...
I do not intend to "bash" or undermine your attempts at establishing a school of defensive tactics...Godspeed on your journey...

But, I hope you realize that the comment I made regarding distance screams to those who really KNOW traditional arts.

You are NOT in a position of advantage in that photo...

You might want to redo the whole photo-shoot thing...

:asian:
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

At least your admitting your an idiot...step in the right direction.


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

> I don't think we are on the same sheet of music here. What picture are you talking about? Your talking wrist I'm talking shoulder lock


Are you the bald guy with the white belt? or the black belt with the red top?

chufeng


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

> At least your admitting your an idiot...step in the right direction.



?????????

   

Come on Dave, after all of your peace and love stuff ???

I actually thought we were making progress towards a peaceful resolution on the issue...

:asian:
chufeng


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

Two things - 

One - I can see where the photo in question could have been an "in motion" shot that wasn't planned to appear the way it did.  Reason number one that posing, no matter how contrary it may be to real martial arts, is the only way to represent techniques in still photos.

Two - name calling is really beneath you, MRJ.  :disgust:

Up to this point, while I did not agree with your reluctance to answer the questions posed to you, I at least had a passing amount of respect for how you held your ground and did so with a modicum of restraint.

Your name calling pretty much chucked that in the crapper.  :flushed:

Not that you probably care, really, and not that I care that you don't care.  But I figured I'd at least let you know.

And just a neat little thing from the Budoshoshinshu:

"A samurai who is in service may well have among his acquaintences or comrades one with whom for some reason he does not wish to associate.  But if he is ordered by his lord to serve with such a one he should immediately go to him and say, "I am ordered to serve with you, and though so far we have not been on speaking terms, as things are, I trust you will cooperate with me so that we can carry out our duties properly without any difficulties."  And should the other be his senior in office, he will ask him to give him the benefit of his kind instruction.  If the day after he should be transferred to some other position, then they are to revert to their former terms, but that meanwhile they are to agree to work together cordially in their official duties is the correct conduct for a samurai."

Just something I like to re-read every now and again...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 6, 2003)

Guys....
I dont want to lock another bloody thread...ok?

Do us a favor.... let the 'crap' slide, and focus on the more important parts of -everyones- posts in this last series.

I believe it's been said that a still picture is very hard to understand the exact movements going on.

I think that alot of good has come out of these exchanges (though not to my hairline, but, heh, the gals like bald guys I hear....)  )

focus on the good stuff huh?


I've got a request here.... I want video clips of stuff to add to MT's library.  Send me some....this goes for everyone here.  Lets see what everyones got and maybe we can all learn something from each other.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

That photo isn't even on my site anymore.  And it's a simple wrist lock with an iron palm drag.  Something common in law enforcement, you just can't see the cuffs because one is on his wrist and the other is in my hand away from the camera.  It drags the BG forward/to the side by putting pain on the wrist.  You WANT distance on this particular technique to 'drag' him down while rotating the arm into a cuffing position.  It's simple and it works.  Works from the back as well.   We've taught and used it for years on real bg's.


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Guys....
> I dont want to lock another bloody thread...ok?*



Really?  But they look so cool locked up like that with the sexy little lock icon...  



> *I think that alot of good has come out of these exchanges (though not to my hairline, but, heh, the gals like bald guys I hear....)  )*



Yeah, and the girls like chubby guys like me...  Keep right on telling yourself that, Kaith...  Just like a mantra...



> * Lets see what everyones got and maybe we can all learn something from each other. *



God forbid!!!  :angel: 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> Yeah, and the girls like chubby guys like me...  Keep right on telling yourself that, Kaith...  Just like a mantra...



Trust me...I do.....


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *That photo isn't even on my site anymore.  And it's a simple wrist lock with an iron palm drag.  Something common in law enforcement, you just can't see the cuffs because one is on his wrist and the other is in my hand away from the camera.  It drags the BG forward/to the side by putting pain on the wrist.  You WANT distance on this particular technique to 'drag' him down while rotating the arm into a cuffing position.  It's simple and it works.  Works from the back as well.   We've taught and used it for years on real bg's. *



Perhaps.

However, having had as a student a 5' 11" 250 pound body builder, I learned rather quickly that distance between he and I simply amplified his strength advantage during grappling movements.  Staying close helps to neutralize the strength advantage by allowing me to make use of my body rather than just my arms.

As for having done it that way for years, fine.  Whatever.  If you are satisfied with it, fine.  Personally, I wouldn't use it that way.  I knew a jujutsu guy that claimed to have had LE training and had taught lots of military LE folks, and his locks and holds sucked butt.  The largest MP in a class I "assisted" him with pulled right out of every hold he attempted to put the MP into.  I didn't have that problem.  

Just my thoughts, for what little they are worth.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

Kaith,

This is the closest we've come to a real dialogue...
If you lock us out now some crazed suicide bomber will hit the next thread...give it some time.

:asian:
chufeng


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

The only thing I have ever really disagreed with MRJ (David Shultz) is his uncorroborated claims to rank and titles he has used. (Have no fear I am not bringing those up again at this time)
Other than that I dont care if he practices in a pink ballet tutu covered in so many patches it looks like Richard Pettys racecar or has a disco ball hanging from the celing of his dojo.

My teacher has always stressed that we should try and discover technique for ourselves rather than being spoon sped. 
His idea is that we will never forget things we discover on our own, but often forget things we are taught.

So as far as MRJs making his own system.fine. 
We all should be looking further and deeper into whatever we study (not restricted to MAs) . Only by deep introspection and practice can anyone ever hope to achieve any amount of skill. 


Here is a suggestion for your new photo:

Instead of putting your arms in the direction of your knee, which tends to give the person room to raise from the ground or rollout/in, push them in a more downward motion to pin the shoulder more and make it more difficult fro the bad guy to get up.


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Yiliquan and Chufeng,

Why don't you jump on your buddy for throwing gasoline on the fire.  You seem like leaders and not followers...so act like it.  This thread was really shaping up till YOUR buddy decided to open his mouth with negative comments.

Was I posting peacefully?

Was I giving credit where due?

Was I showing appreciation where due?

It's a dead issue that will not be resolved because he says I have to belong to organization # 1 and I say I can belong or not belong to whatever organzation I chose.  I would very much like to move on...but YOUR buddy keeps yanking us back.  

It is tiresome and yes I've lost my patience.  I may be a Christian but I can't walk on water yet.  If not kind...tell me it wasn't a frank and honest apprasial of his posts again and again and again....


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

Dave,

Give the WebBoard time to catch up and you might find you've actually gained considerable ground...

I am a Christian, too...

I don't think I've jumped on you with both feet since I saw your resume...correct me, if I'm wrong...

I'm sure we could learn from each other...you have specific techniques that I simply do not use (hand-cuff techniques)...but I'm sure that I can offer a few tidbits, as well.

:asian:
chufeng


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

You see...
RSK has given you actual user friendly information...

   

Lambs and Lions sleeping together???
Will the world ever survive???

 
chufeng


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

> Instead of putting your arms in the direction of your knee, which tends to give the person room to raise from the ground or rollout/in, push them in a more downward motion to pin the shoulder more and make it more difficult fro the bad guy to get up.



Already been covered.  I know how to pin someone with a shoulderlock and yeah his shoulder will be touching to floor and his legs will be flat out as well.  I also bring my forearm in a inward and upward motion on the tricep to further lock him.  I've done it on a pissed off 6'8 380 lbs inmate high on crack...it works.


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Yiliquan and Chufeng,
> 
> Why don't you jump on your buddy for throwing gasoline on the fire.  You seem like leaders and not followers...so act like it.  This thread was really shaping up till YOUR buddy decided to open his mouth with negative comments.*



#1 - I'm not a leader.  Just a member like everyone else.  Not sure what you expect from me...

#2 - RSK is my friend and my senior.  While I don't always agree with his tone, I still agree 100% with what he is asking for.  His methods differ from mine, but I work with attorneys and have a different way of getting people to do what I want.  He uses one method, I use another.  Ultimately, though, I don't disagree with what he has said (just, perhaps, _how_ he has said it)...  not one single bit.



> *Was I posting peacefully?*



Up until the whole "a-hole" and "idiot" comments...  RSK has been suspended for less.  I didn't think he was really posting in a manner that would cause you to lose your cool to that degree.  But you did, for whatever reason.



> *Was I giving credit where due?
> 
> Was I showing appreciation where due?*



Not sure, really...  Gonna have to reread stuff...



> *It's a dead issue that will not be resolved because he says I have to belong to organization # 1 and I say I can belong or not belong to whatever organzation I chose.  I would very much like to move on...but YOUR buddy keeps yanking us back.*



He didn't say you _had_ to _belong_ to anything, just that there are organizations that exist that do police their own arts, and who authorize folks to promote other folks to certain levels in those particular arts.  When folks claim rank that is typically only granted by those organizations under their authorization (in an attempt to police their own ranks, not to dominate and censure others), and it is found that such rank was not granted in that manner, it raises eyebrows...

If someone just went out and claimed to be a Senior Level 7 in Yiliquan, but couldn't manage to back that up with who promoted him and with what authorization, I'd be on his doorstep in a minute looking for proof...  Because we enforce our own standards on our art for our mutual benefit and to prevent it from being transmitted incorrectly, improperly, or with loss of information and quality due to personal preferences...

That was his concern, as I understood it.  I don't think your skills were ever called into question.  As someone who claims an LE background, I am sure you can understand the necessity of maintaining the standards of certification for certain information.  If a person claims he was certified by the National Police Teaching Certification Guy, but can't prove it, then there are issues...  Similar questions were had in the debate between you and RSK.  



> *It is tiresome and yes I've lost my patience.  I may be a Christian but I can't walk on water yet.  If not kind...tell me it wasn't a frank and honest apprasial of his posts again and again and again.... *



You lost more than your patience...  You lost your cool.   That is something an LEO and a MAist shouldn't do...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> * Was I posting peacefully?
> 
> Was I giving credit where due?
> ...



Lets not even go there or we will be shut down or worse.




> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *As for having done it that way for years, fine.  Whatever.  If you are satisfied with it, fine.  Personally, I wouldn't use it that way.  I knew a jujutsu guy that claimed to have had LE training and had taught lots of military LE folks, and his locks and holds sucked butt.  The largest MP in a class I "assisted" him with pulled right out of every hold he attempted to put the MP into.  I didn't have that problem.
> *



That JJ guy wasnt the dreaded Mr. Stun-gun was it?

I am currently teaching the CID (Central Investigation Division..Army/DoD version of the FBI).
A great bunch of guys and even a few ladies.
They have admitted that what they learned at their schools for the specific job was just enough to get their butts kicked.
Monday we had a 2 hour training session (0530~0730.what a way to wake up) and we worked on several things. Much of the time was spent showing them why a lot of what they had learned was actually counter productive and could get them in a world of hurt. Certain ways they did armbars and locks specifically.

And yes Yiliquan1 there was a lot of dentist drill kind of pain..wouldn't be a class without that...speaking of whichwhen are you going to come over?


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *That JJ guy wasnt the dreaded Mr. Stun-gun was it?*



I must admit, yes it is the individual of whom you speak...    Did I ever show you the pics?  I should email you what I have...



> *I am currently teaching the CID (Central Investigation Division..Army/DoD version of the FBI).
> A great bunch of guys and even a few ladies.
> They have admitted that what they learned at their schools for the specific job was just enough to get their butts kicked.
> Monday we had a 2 hour training session (0530~0730.what a way to wake up) and we worked on several things. Much of the time was spent showing them why a lot of what they had learned was actually counter productive and could get them in a world of hurt.
> Armbars and locks specifically. *



Cool!  I didn't know you had gotten that gig.  How is the regular class working out?  Email me and get me up to speed with things "back home."

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 6, 2003)

Tell you what, maybe it's because I'm on my second of three 18 hours days..or maybe it's because I'm tired of getting jumped for something no matter which way I turn...but I am simply tired of it.

I've tried to have a peacefull exchange and meaningfull diologe.  And yes you've been very friendly and helpful as has several others I originally had conflicts with.  But RSK is simply another story.  People come here to learn and help others if possible not get into pissing contest all the time.  I CAN'T BACK UP MY CREDENTIALS TO HIS SATISFACTION AND I NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO.  Doesn't negate them except in his eyes.  Regardless I'm to tired to fight about it anymore.  I'm a good teacher by the comments of many people way above me in ability.  I do the best I can to impart that and I have achieved a measure of success.  I'm an honest man with sincere motives.  I'm not perfect and try to adjust when I'm able.   

Whatever, it doesn't look like I'll be able to just post here and be judged for my content without getting slapped in the face every other day by others standards.  This board existed long before I arrived and will go on just as fine without me.  In the interest of peace and saving Bob and the other mods further aggrevation I'll just bow out and leave it to all of you.  Thanks for what I have learned and hopefully I contributed a bit as well.

Peace be with you all.

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *And yes Yiliquan1 there was a lot of dentist drill kind of pain..wouldn't be a class without that...speaking of whichwhen are you going to come over? *



I still remember that pain when you did that wrist lock - one I have yet to get down just right, but one whose memory of pain I will take to the grave!

I am hoping to visit in August, but I'm not sure yet...  Work, money and life may yet get in the way.  But, August is the time frame I am looking at right now.  O-bon and Bon Odori!!!  Woohoo!!!

And a trip to "the Honch!"

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I must admit, yes it is the individual of whom you speak...    Did I ever show you the pics?  I should email you what I have...
> *




Oh my, my..yes, I suppose I had better have a look at those.


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *In the interest of peace and saving Bob and the other mods further aggrevation I'll just bow out and leave it to all of you.  Thanks for what I have learned and hopefully I contributed a bit as well.
> 
> Peace be with you all.
> ...



Gotta say I'm disappointed...  Your comments, even when I disagreed with them content-wise, were usually well written (something some folks on MT have yet to get a handle on - some folks are still learning what "spell check" means).  For you to give up like this doesn't seem to be consistent with all the other things you say, and all the things you have in your background.

I still don't see how you have been beaten up in this thread.  If you feel that way, then that's your reality.  Gotta say that I haven't seen it though...

Peace to you too...  Enjoy the journey.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Tell you what, maybe it's because I'm on my second of three 18 hours days..or maybe it's because I'm tired of getting jumped for something no matter which way I turn...but I am simply tired of it.
> 
> I've tried to have a peacefull exchange and meaningfull diologe.  And yes you've been very friendly and helpful as has several others I originally had conflicts with.  But RSK is simply another story.  People come here to learn and help others if possible not get into pissing contest all the time.  I CAN'T BACK UP MY CREDENTIALS TO HIS SATISFACTION AND I NEVER WILL BE ABLE TO.  Doesn't negate them except in his eyes.  Regardless I'm to tired to fight about it anymore.  I'm a good teacher by the comments of many people way above me in ability.  I do the best I can to impart that and I have achieved a measure of success.  I'm an honest man with sincere motives.  I'm not perfect and try to adjust when I'm able.
> ...




MRJ, 

Its too bad you feel that way.
At this point in time I dont care if you back up your credentials or notI have for the most part dropped the issue.
All I, or anyone, has asked of not only you but every member of this board is to give some sound basis for what they say. 
Nobody is picking on you. When things you or anyone says contradict previous statements people will ask questions to clarify what is meant.


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## yilisifu (May 6, 2003)

Please don't think I'm "picking on" you, but....you MUST be able to back up your credentials legitimately.  Otherwise, you are open to serious criticism and questions.  RyuShihkan has not been picking on you; he has simply asked for clarification of certain issues; issues which MUST be answered clearly.

If I claim to be a Harvard graduate, I should have a certificate from Harvard AND they should have me on record.  Otherwise, my claim is subject to doubt.  Those who doubt it are not picking on me; they are simply asking a perfectly valid question which begs to be answered.


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## Matt Stone (May 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Please don't think I'm "picking on" you, but....you MUST be able to back up your credentials legitimately.  Otherwise, you are open to serious criticism and questions.  RyuShihkan has not been picking on you; he has simply asked for clarification of certain issues; issues which MUST be answered clearly.
> 
> If I claim to be a Harvard graduate, I should have a certificate from Harvard AND they should have me on record.  Otherwise, my claim is subject to doubt.  Those who doubt it are not picking on me; they are simply asking a perfectly valid question which begs to be answered. *



None of this necessarily negates the possibility that a self-taught, home schooled person could be equally well taught and well read.  However, that home schooled person shouldn't claim a Harvard degree...

Just my thoughts.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## chufeng (May 6, 2003)

Very unfortunate...him leaving...but I think he'll be back.

It is strange that just when peple were accepting his unorthodox martial art...he bales...

I actually had a few questions for him...bummer.

I think it VERY interesting that his system has changed names twice while posting on this board...again, he is developing his own system...and that is OK...and hopefully, he's learned a bit here...and hopefully, he'll come back to share.

If he is really interested in learning, then he surely has an open mind about us tired old traditionalists...and can see that we might actually have something to offer him...

But, we have to conceed that he can teach us a few things as well...

???
we'll see what happens.

:asian:
chufeng


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 7, 2003)

hey,
as a ueichi practitioner i believe i know who myajutsuryu is.  If he knows sensei rick martin, thats good enough for me.  For those of you not in contact with the floridian ueichi/ pangainoon group, Rick martin is one of the more compotent members of the style. I've worked with several of his students and they are very compotent. 


now if there should be any more issues between you two please slap down the cash for plane tickets and meet some where to sparr and get this flame war over with. (i got to page 7 of your discussion and lost my patience) If not will the nearest administrator please bann the offenders.  I hope the admisnistrators don't mind but im now using the discussion on this thread as a basis for my mid term essay for the child psychology class which i am now taking.
Don't make me use my telemarketing-amway-do

"time for the L.O.C." :soapbox:


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## RyuShiKan (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *hey,
> as a ueichi practitioner i believe i know who myajutsuryu is.  If he knows sensei rick martin, thats good enough for me.  For those of you not in contact with the floridian ueichi/ pangainoon group, Rick martin is one of the more compotent members of the style. I've worked with several of his students and they are very compotent.
> 
> ...




You obviously butted in with your two cents just to make trouble.


Also this email you sent must have been intended for someone else, since if you really had read my posts on this thread you would know I dont teach Uechi Ryu, and if you look at my profile you can see it states my location as not being in Florida.




> _via email by angrywhitepajamas _
> *Hey,
> I personally have no problems with you.  If you can teach a ueichi varyant in florida along side Sensei Rick Martin You have my respect.  And you have my sympathy for having to deal with those who do not listen. but please do not bail on those of us who do listen and learn from what you write.
> 
> ...


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 7, 2003)

sorry about the wrong email,

But I will not retract what I have said.  If certain people do not wish to state where they got their rank i do not care, so long as they can back up their claim with skill.  
And if the admin minds my use of certain portions of the thread for my essay, then I'll  find another subject.
But I am tired of reading through pages of people bickeringback and forth over a peice of paper.  I see that enough here in college.

Please forgiveme if I have ruffled any feathers but I am in a less than charitable mood to put it politely.


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## RyuShiKan (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> * If certain people do not wish to state where they got their rank i do not care, so long as they can back up their claim with skill.  *




Like I said before.
It would seem youre here just to stir up trouble again.

These issues have died and you would like to stir them up yet again.





> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> * Please forgiveme if I have ruffled any feathers but I am in a less than charitable mood to put it politely. *



So am, I so why should anyone forgive you for being an obvious trouble maker


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## Aegis (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by angrywhitepajamas _
> *But I will not retract what I have said.  If certain people do not wish to state where they got their rank i do not care, so long as they can back up their claim with skill.   *



And what if you were a novice who wanted to learn traditional Jujutsu and were looking for a master? Would you care more about potentially fraudulent claims then? Or would you be ok with the fact that you might be being taught something completely different to what was advertised?

No-one has really questioned his skill, it's his credentials they are asking about.


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## James Kovacich (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *And what if you were a novice who wanted to learn traditional Jujutsu and were looking for a master? Would you care more about potentially fraudulent claims then? Or would you be ok with the fact that you might be being taught something completely different to what was advertised?
> 
> No-one has really questioned his skill, it's his credentials they are asking about. *



So if you are a novice. Then how will you be able to tell the differance?  And how do you know he teaches something completely differant? Or was that an example?

I've followed the thread. And I understand the importances on both sides. But the martial arts have grown dramtically in the USA. This growth began long before any of us were students. 

Its only natural for there to be so many practioners all over the place. I heard the comment back a ways that  black belts used to be few and far between. It could only be that way if there were never any more students or they all quit. In the USA alone there must be millions of students that are still in the Kyu ranks and how many Dans with less than 2 years in the arts?

As far as the time in grade and so forth, thats changed as well. Some say they can even point to a particular country that started the trend. The rest did not have to follow, but they did. So they are all guilty! And as I've said before. 

WE ARE ALL ONE!


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## A.R.K. (May 7, 2003)

Last night I was 3/4 way thru my second 18 hour shift this week, I was tired and I allowed myself to speak through negative emotion and frustration.  My apologies.  I came on-line today to find emails and PM's showing appreciation and suggesting I stick around.  Thank you, it means alot :asian: 

Chufeng,

I want to thank you and also Yiliquan 1.  Although we don't always agree, I feel both of you have given my a fair shake and allowed me to express myself...and you've actually listened.  I respect that.



> I think it VERY interesting that his system has changed names twice while posting on this board...again, he is developing his own system...and that is OK...and hopefully, he's learned a bit here...and hopefully, he'll come back to share.



Anything worth doing is worth doing poorly until you learn to do it well.



> If he is really interested in learning, then he surely has an open mind about us tired old traditionalists...and can see that we might actually have something to offer him...



Main reason for my being here is to learn.  I'm interested in opinions and comments that are meant to inform and educate if delivered with kindness and sincerity.  Comments meant to badger, demean, bash or beat a dead horse are unwelcome, I don't think I'm alone on this feeling.  




> But, we have to conceed that he can teach us a few things as well...



If I can, it is my pleasure.  :asian: 

RSK,



> These issues have died



That would be nice.  Far to much time has been spent on them.  However, in the interest of peace Robert I invite you if you still feel the need to corrospond with me via email.  I don't suspect it will be to your satisfaction, but at least it will open the lines of communication between us personally and clear the path here to proceed onto other topics of mutual interest.

Angrywhitepajamas,

Thank you sir :asian: 

Ric lives about twenty minutes away from me, and I have been to his dojo.  It is truly a beutiful dojo and he has every right to be proud of his accomplishments.  We have only met briefly, at one time I trained for a short time in another Uechi Dojo in the area run by Frank Gorman.  That was quite a number of years ago, I believe Sensei Gorman was a 7th Dan.  I have not seen either in quite some time.  My school flyer is right next to Ric's school flyer at Americana which is the uniform supplier for LEO, Firefighting, EMT etc for the whole tri-county area.  However I have not actively taught this system since I was overseas and feel I am no where near as qualified as these two men in this Art.  Since we teach separate disciplines in different areas of the county we are not in competition with each other really.  He has his deal, I have mine.  And as I've said before, I'm a small fish in a big ocean.  

Actually we have quite a few 'names' in this area.  Bill Wallace is somehow connected with Paul Acklins 'Super kicks'.  We have Joe Lewis in with Jim Graden.  Mike McGann, Robert Harmer, Matt Fury, Amir academy and Park TWD etc.  Heck, we've even got Hulk Hogan and some of the others here  

So lets get on to other things and let the peace and love flow


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## A.R.K. (May 7, 2003)

AKJA,

That is why I honestly feel that BB's are a dime a dozen.  This is not meant in a disrepectful tone, not at all.  But as I've posted before, standards and requirements vary widely.  Not all BB's are created equal so to speak.  Let it be a source of respectful pride, let it provide a well earned sense of accomplishment.  

But who you are and what you have learned is of far more importance than who signed your paperwork, or where or if it's registered.

Remember what I said before, we all ultimately recieved rank from someone who originally had no rank.  Rank is relative and subjective.  We can all still learn much...and that is an exciting thing.

Just my opinion. 

:asian:


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## James Kovacich (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *AKJA,
> 
> That is why I honestly feel that BB's are a dime a dozen.
> ...



Thats why I had such an attitude when people who did not personally know me were saying that I could not be evaluated by someone who had a similar lineage as me but was not my direct teacher. 

I had much more experience that many today and I deserved to run my school and make it legitimate. Some choose not to recognize. So what.

Two of my Sensei regonize my rank and I am under the direct guidance of my Sensei who earned his 3rd Dan in Japan in 1963. He also wore his 4th Dan for over 20 years (anyone in here do that) and his Sensei reognizes him as 10th Dan and founder of his own system.

As long as I have people like him working with me, it dosen't matter what anybody else thinks!:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 7, 2003)

Akja,

It is all paper and signatures.  As I've said numerous times, it is all subjective and relative.  If someone doesn't 'recognize' you because you don't belong to a particular organization....so?  To me that is just a $$$ thing.  The organizations that recognized me as this and that didn't charge me anything.  I didn't pay for anything and they are my betters not my buddies.  However, now that different Grandmasters/heads of organizations around the world have accepted me amoung them [after microscope up the rearend scrutiny] I would like to consider them friends...and still my betters.

People can bandy about accusations of non legite credibility.  but what makes a person legit?  Is it who signs his/her certifiacte?  Is it a backing organization?  Or is it their skill, knowledge and perhaps teaching ability?  

A person can have a world famous teacher sign their certificate and be backed by the largest organization on the planet...and get their butt kicked in the parking lot at the mall because they lack real world experience.  

A person can lack any wall candy but have practical experience and the ability to share it with others who in turn can successfully defend themselves against attack.  

Who would you rather learn from?

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *Chufeng,
> 
> I want to thank you and also Yiliquan 1.  Although we don't always agree, I feel both of you have given my a fair shake and allowed me to express myself...and you've actually listened.  I respect that.*



I don't presume to speak for Chufeng.  I just give you all the rope you want...  You will either swing or hang.  I provide equal opportunity to all - to fail.  Nobody gets a special chance with me simply by virtue of any one particular thing.  I was excited to train with Chufeng the first time I met him because my teacher spoke well of him.  It wasn't until he impaled me that I _really_ thought well of him myself.  I thought highly of RSK based on who his teacher was, but until he hit me in the liver I really had nothing to base it on...  I'm just sayin'...  Don't get a big head.  I may still flame you yet...    :flame:


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## A.R.K. (May 7, 2003)

A two way street....:asian:


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## DAC..florida (May 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Please don't think I'm "picking on" you, but....you MUST be able to back up your credentials legitimately.  Otherwise, you are open to serious criticism and questions.  RyuShihkan has not been picking on you; he has simply asked for clarification of certain issues; issues which MUST be answered clearly.
> 
> If I claim to be a Harvard graduate, I should have a certificate from Harvard AND they should have me on record.  Otherwise, my claim is subject to doubt.  Those who doubt it are not picking on me; they are simply asking a perfectly valid question which begs to be answered. *



If you said you had a harvard cert. and I wanted proof and you then told me I would never get that proof for whatever reason! I supose I would have to accept that!

Thats the only point I'm trying to make, believe it or not just accept or not, but dont beat a dead horse.

ylisifu i just used youre above quote as an example this post is not aimed at you alone.


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## Mike Clarke (May 7, 2003)

DAC florida,

I'm not sure why your instructor wont say who he recieved an 8th dan from?

It's not that I'm doubting he has the bit of paper, I truely believe he has, or that someone did in fact give it to him, I believe this happened too.

I'm just asking if you can please remind me why your teacher will not inform people about who it was that gave him the certificate?

If he has already said who it was in an earlier post, I'd be really pleased if you could let me know when that post appeared as I must have missed it/them?

I'm not doubting your teacher's ability here, I'm just asking you to share some information with me. If you're not able to do this, perhaps you could ask him to reply to this post himself.

Mike.


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## arnisador (May 8, 2003)

This thread is now closed.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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