# TWC & Tsui Ma



## TMA17 (Oct 26, 2017)

Does anyone know what lineages teach the “push horse” aka Tsui Ma or Toy Ma?


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## wckf92 (Oct 26, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Does anyone know what lineages teach the “push horse” aka Tsui Ma or Toy Ma?



Doesn't all wc teach it a la 2nd form(!?!?!?!)


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## TMA17 (Oct 26, 2017)

No I don’t think so.

“The students of Yip man who stayed with him longer than 10 years usually got it (Moy Yat, Yip Brothers, Wong Shun Leung, Chu Shong Tin, etc). There was nothing formal about it until Moy Yat with Yip Man's advice added tsui ma as a formal exercise in chi sau progression at his school in Hong Kong, much like the jong wasn't an official form until all of Yip's students starting teaching and needed to organize the movements that they all learned.

So tsui ma elements are in many of the older Yip lineages but it wasn't formalized until Moy Yat put it in his Hong Kong school.

Tsui Ma is one of the things that really makes the Moy Yat Method of Yip Man Ving Tsun stand apart from the rest.”


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## Marnetmar (Oct 26, 2017)

There's lineages that _don't _teach tsui ma? That's basic Chun that should be taught from the beginning.

I don't know who the rest of you are but if y'all don't have tsui ma you need to get with the program because that's straight up inexcusable.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2017)

A "white eyebrow" student will spend his first 6 months to train

- step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
- step back the back leg, the front leg then follow.


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## Danny T (Oct 27, 2017)

Jiu Wan lineage we do it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

Without switching sides, there are 3 different forward steps. It covers 3 different range of distance.

1. 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then follow.
2. 1 step - step in the back leg to touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in.
3. 1 and 1/2 step - step in the front leg, the back leg then step in and touch the back of the front leg, the front leg then step in again.

IMO, the "1 step" footwork is the safest. For the other 2, you have to step in your leading leg first. The distance between you and your opponent has reduced. Your opponent can't attack you before, Now he can attack you. When you use "1 step", you step in your back leg first. Since the distance between you and your opponent still remain the same. Your opponent can't attack you before, he still can't attack you when you step in your back leg. You can then step in your front leg when you feel safe. "1 step" can give you that option. The other 2 cannot.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2017)

Maybe we need to define "Tsui Ma."  Not every lineage uses the exact same terminology.  If you mean simply a forward step into the opponent's center, then yes, everyone does that!  Realize that what happens in some lineages is that they put a special emphasis on something or develop it just one step further than others.  But that doesn't mean others don't have it as well.

So what exactly does "Tsui Ma" mean/represent in the Moy Yat lineage?


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## TMA17 (Oct 27, 2017)




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## TMA17 (Oct 27, 2017)

In our curriculum it's in form 2.  AKA "toy ma" (horse push).  It’s not taught in all lineages.


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## TMA17 (Oct 27, 2017)

*Moy Yat - Tsui Ma*

Tsui Ma, or 'push horse', is one of the fundamental skills in Ving Tsun development. This step-by-step training guide focuses on developing power from the legs and transmitting it into the hands. Presented by Grand Master Moy Yat


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## wckf92 (Oct 27, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> It’s not taught in all lineages.



So which lineages don't teach it?


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## TMA17 (Oct 27, 2017)

I don’t think TWC does.  I’m not sure which others don’t.  I have a Moy Yat school and TWC near me.  I wanted to know if TWC does in case I go back there.  I’m not 100% sure TWC doesn’t but it appears that way.  That’s why I’m asking specifically about TWC.


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## KPM (Oct 27, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> I don’t think TWC does.  I’m not sure which others don’t.  I have a Moy Yat school and TWC near me.  I wanted to know if TWC does in case I go back there.  I’m not 100% sure TWC doesn’t but it appears that way.  That’s why I’m asking specifically about TWC.



I would say that TWC does not break it out as a "thing" and put any emphasis on it over other methods of stepping.  TWC tends to step to the flank or take an angle more often than stepping into the center.  But TWC does certainly still step into the center at times, just as shown in your first video example!   Is that good or bad?  Better or worse?  Depends on your perspective!   MY people may say "TWC does not have Tsui Ma!"  and TWC people may say MY lineage does not have a "T step!"  Each has the other, it just depends upon how much it is emphasized!


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## TMA17 (Oct 27, 2017)

Good points but I think, if I’m not mistaken, Tsui Ma is about delivery power to hands from ground.  Horse push.  It’s like the engine that drives the power.  This technique seems like it could be very valuable.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 27, 2017)

I started in Moy Yat lineage and have a good deal of respect for it, but they do not have any exclusive dominion over this stance or step. I don't know enough about William Chueng's pedagogy to say how they teach, but you're looking for exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. I'm not aware of Wing Chun lineages who don't use this stance. I'm not even sure how they would get around without it.

I think you've picked up some questionable history somewhere, which is unfortunately too common in our community.


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## DanT (Oct 27, 2017)

Since my Sifu learned from several of Yip Man's students, we use both methods.


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## DanT (Oct 27, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Good points but I think, if I’m not mistaken, Tsui Ma is about delivery power to hands from ground.  Horse push.  It’s like the engine that drives the power.  This technique seems like it could be very valuable.


From my experience in TWC, when you get to the outside gate and pin, you can continue to push through opponent with Tsui Ma. Perhaps KPM can confirm this.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 27, 2017)

TMA17 said:


>



I don't like to criticize clips of people training, because they are doing a drill and I may not fully understand what it was designed to train. But, I'm concerned about what the person receiving the forward pressure is doing. Maybe the drill was set to help the stepper feel what it's like to (in very rudimentary terms) take an opponent's center with your horse. If that is the case, again, it's not right to criticize a drill for doing what it's designed for, but I'd want to make sure that the students understood what they should be doing in response to someone stepping in on them like that, which isn't happening in this clip.

I don't post videos of our training, but we work hard on these concepts. The drills may be lineage or even sifu specific, but the concepts are not.


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## Parky (Oct 27, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> So which lineages don't teach it?



I think a more important question to ask is what 'teachers' don't teach it? Maybe every 'Lineage' has it, maybe, but that doesn't mean every teacher in that lineage is teaching it. I had more than 5 years of WC training before I was exposed to it, and by the time someone was kind enough to show me I had already learned the hand forms and the dummy form. Needless to say, all I had up to that point was WC 'choreography'.


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## Kungfujason (Oct 27, 2017)

My understanding of toy ma in the Moy Yat schools is that is it is part of the partner drilled progressions.  At least as I learned it was pak sau, pak da, lop sau, Dan chi sau, then a progression of stationary two hand rolling drills (“running” and “catching hands”), toy ma, then chi sao.  It’s been a while (have not formally trained Ving Tsun in 8 years), so I could be misremembering. 

The senior student in toy ma still was the one pushing.  The junior would receive.  The junior student was training to strengthen their horse.  The senior student obviously gained something from this too, in terms of learning to move forward into someone’s center and maintain structure while doing that.

It sounds as if some are referring to a stepping method, but I think it is more commonly used to refer to a drill in Moy Yat schools (at least as I learned).


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## geezer (Oct 27, 2017)

Thanks Jason, that clears things up a bit since tui-ma/toy-ma isn't a term I've heard used in our branch of Yip Man VT. I also thought it was being described as a stepping technique that sounded a bit like our "dap bo" or pursuing-step.


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## Juany118 (Oct 28, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> I don’t think TWC does.  I’m not sure which others don’t.  I have a Moy Yat school and TWC near me.  I wanted to know if TWC does in case I go back there.  I’m not 100% sure TWC doesn’t but it appears that way.  That’s why I’m asking specifically about TWC.



Pretty much what KPM says.  Since the emphasis is on "blind side"/flanking it isn't specifically a "thing" but once it was described I said "well yeah of course we do that."

All power generation starts at the feet and is predicated on maintaining balance and structure, whether you are moving in on an angle, to enter while flanking or, if circumstances demand, you are forced to go "up the middle."


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