# Mossberg or Remington...what's your preference?



## Cruentus (Aug 15, 2006)

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/compare_870_590.html

I am thinking of getting a Moss 590 and tricking it out for Xmas myself...


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## Grenadier (Aug 15, 2006)

Either does fine.  I simply prefer Remington's 870 series over the Mossberg 590 series, although there are plenty of aftermarket kits for both series.  

For me, the Remington 870 has the advantage in sheer simplicity.  Anyone with a reasonable working knowledge of firearms can break down a Remington 870 even without reading the manual.  The Mossberg isn't quite as easy.


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## Kreth (Aug 15, 2006)

I have a Mossberg 500 (stock) that I'm pretty happy with. Maybe someday I'll get around to customizing it...


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## Blindside (Aug 15, 2006)

I went with an 870 express HD model, it comes with an extended magazine and a high vis follower.  It was $285 out the door and all that I had to add was a light and a sidesaddle.  Admittedly the action isn't anywhere near as smooth as my friends high dollar duck guns, but that isn't what I bought it for.  

Lamont


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## Bigshadow (Aug 15, 2006)

I have the Mossberg 500 look alike "Maverick".  I bought it last year.  It does what it supposed to do.   Crap this reminded me I don't have the choke tube wrench.  I have forgotten to call Mossberg and get them to send it when I bought it.  I guess I have buy one now.


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 15, 2006)

I prefer the Remington for pumps, but actually like the semi-auto Mossbergs.  Love the jungle gun.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

I like my Remington 870 it simply is a sweet shotgun.  However, I love my Mossberg 590A1 that is tricked out alot better.  If I were going bird hunting I would probably take my 870 with me.  However, if I were to have to defend myself with a shotgun then I would definately want my 590A1!  (they both are great shotguns)  The Remington is a little smoother but the Mossberg feels and moves like combative shotgun! :ultracool 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## tradrockrat (Aug 15, 2006)

The wife and I went with the mossberg due to financial considerations, and we're both quite happy with it.

No tricking it out - she's a diehard "stock, barrel, and 9 shells" kind of girl.  It has to look and perform like the one she carries in her squad car.

don't bother me none.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

I definately like my Mossberg as well!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 15, 2006)

Any suggestions on the best after-market stuff for the Mossberg? My only issue with it is that it's very long, which could be a problem in a home defense scenario?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

The 590A1 that I have is substantially shorter and that is a definate advantage for a home defense model.  Truthfully, it could even be an inch shorter and I would not complain.  Actually just have an extra butt
stock ammo carrier and you should be just fine.  Almost any shortgun is 
going to be an effective home security tool.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

Paul,

If you want to come up and shoot mine before you by one you are definately welcome to.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The 590A1 that I have is substantially shorter and that is a definate advantage for a home defense model. Truthfully, it could even be an inch shorter and I would not complain. Actually just have an extra butt
> stock ammo carrier and you should be just fine. Almost any shortgun is
> going to be an effective home security tool.


I've looked at Mossberg's conversion kits, including a pistol grip stock and a shorter barrel. I was just curious if anyone would recommend those or aftermarket (read: 3rd party) stuff.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I've looked at Mossberg's conversion kits, including a pistol grip stock and a shorter barrel. I was just curious if anyone would recommend those or aftermarket (read: 3rd party) stuff.


 
I like a shorter barrel myself. (for home defense)  That might be a great way to go.  Unless you regularly work with a pistol grip you might want to try some out at a local dealer first before you go that route.  Though the pistol grip definately is good!  Just depends on your preferance.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Kreth (Aug 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Unless you regularly work with a pistol grip you might want to try some out at a local dealer first before you go that route.


I'd definitely take it out and do some practicing with it. Speaking of which, I haven't taken my buddy Mr. Mossberg out in a while. Now I want to go shooting... :lol:


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## Makalakumu (Aug 15, 2006)

I've got a Remington 870 mag that shoots three and a halfs and I'm pretty happy with it.  The gun is very versatile as I can take it out for many different types of prey depending on the load.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 15, 2006)

I have an HK/Fabarm FP6 pump gun.

Mossys are nice if your a lefty because the safety is on the top of the gun. That being said, I rarely use the safety and prefer to keep it "cruiser ready". Its easier for me to pump the action than to fumble with the safety with my left hand, especially on an 870. Loading the 590 with that wide open gate is easier than the 870. Used 870 police trade-ins are easier to find than 590s and have a heavier duty reciever than the "Express" models. I just saw some at my local gunstore...they seem to have alot of finish wear from banging around, but the breech looked brand new.

A knox stock for either knocks down alot of recoil with heavy slugs or buck.

Other options:
Heard the Benelli Nova Tacticals are decent guns for the money as is the Winchester 1300 Defender/FN Police.


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## Cruentus (Aug 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> If you want to come up and shoot mine before you by one you are definately welcome to.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks Brian for the offer! One of my Research Guild members has one for me to play with, but I wouldn't mind seeing yours next time I'm over.





> I've looked at Mossberg's conversion kits, including a pistol grip stock and a shorter barrel. I was just curious if anyone would recommend those or aftermarket (read: 3rd party) stuff.


 
Kreth, it is my understanding that Mossbergs are very customization friendly; as to which 3rd party kits are good, I am not sure; I would consider myself a knowledgable pistolman, but until recently, I have only had limited long guy training and familiarity. Just recently did some QCB and rifle tactics training with some old military clients; was hella fun, and I can say now that I am very comfortable with rifle and shootgun for QCB at this point (particularly with the M4). We did some iron site sniping as well, using binoc's to spot and the same sniper principles currently being used in Iraq. I didn't think I would like that as much, but I can say I was wrong...sniping is definatily cool. There is a lot more kinestetic awareness involved then I thought.  

Anyway, I will ask some professionals in my network about how exactly I will be tricking out my Moss when I get closer to buying...:ultracool 

Paul


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 15, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I'd definitely take it out and do some practicing with it. Speaking of which, I haven't taken my buddy Mr. Mossberg out in a while. Now I want to go shooting... :lol:


 
Yes, mine is due for a trip out to the range! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 15, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Any suggestions on the best after-market stuff for the Mossberg? My only issue with it is that it's very long, which could be a problem in a home defense scenario?



I have thought about those pistol grip conversion kits, or a shorter barrel, but mine is mostly used for hunting.  It is in my gun cabinet across the house from me when sleeping.  However, my S&W .45 auto is close by.


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## modarnis (Aug 15, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> I have an HK/Fabarm FP6 pump gun.
> 
> Mossys are nice if your a lefty because the safety is on the top of the gun. That being said, I rarely use the safety and prefer to keep it "cruiser ready". Its easier for me to pump the action than to fumble with the safety with my left hand, especially on an 870. Loading the 590 with that wide open gate is easier than the 870. Used 870 police trade-ins are easier to find than 590s and have a heavier duty reciever than the "Express" models. I just saw some at my local gunstore...they seem to have alot of finish wear from banging around, but the breech looked brand new.
> 
> ...


 
I own a Benelli Nova with a short barrel 18.5 and the ghost ring sights.  If you go that route, pony up the extra 75-80 for the recoil reducer that fits in the buttstock.  I also have a long barrel for waterfowl hunting.  I Still prefer my old O/U double for hunting upland or waterfowl.  Just mounts up  better for me.

I hunt with people who have both Remingtons and Mossbergs.  I have shot both. I have dropped a few geese with both.  Like anything else, its what feels best/works best for you


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## Kreth (Aug 15, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Anyway, I will ask some professionals in my network about how exactly I will be tricking out my Moss when I get closer to buying...:ultracool


Please share their recommendations when you do...


			
				Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I have thought about those pistol grip conversion kits, or a shorter barrel, but mine is mostly used for hunting. It is in my gun cabinet across the house from me when sleeping. However, my S&W .45 auto is close by.


Yeah, I should really get around to obtaining my pistol license sometime soon. It's been too long since I've done any pistol shooting.


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## Drac (Aug 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> I definately like my Mossberg as well!
> 
> Brian R. VanCise
> www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


 
Me too.


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## KenpoTex (Aug 15, 2006)

870 Express.  I'm sure the 500's and 590's are good guns.  However te only Mossbergs I've ever handled/shoot are the Mavericks and I was not favorably impressed.

Even thought I'm a lefty, the 870 doesn't bother me any since I don't use the safety.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 15, 2006)

The receiver of the Remington 870 is steel, while the receivers on the Mossberg 500s are aluminum alloy. Steel is certainly stronger than aluminum, but at the cost of added weight. Durability of the receiver has never been a problem for me, but take this into consideration. Especially if you intend to add a Sidesaddle -- if you over-torque the mounting screws on the Sidesaddle, it's easier to warp an aluminum receiver than a steel one. Sufficient warping and you can bind up your shotgun's bolt.


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## Cruentus (Aug 16, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> The receiver of the Remington 870 is steel, while the receivers on the Mossberg 500s are aluminum alloy. Steel is certainly stronger than aluminum, but at the cost of added weight. Durability of the receiver has never been a problem for me, but take this into consideration. Especially if you intend to add a Sidesaddle -- if you over-torque the mounting screws on the Sidesaddle, it's easier to warp an aluminum receiver than a steel one. Sufficient warping and you can bind up your shotgun's bolt.


 
In theory that makes sense, and I had some question about that myself. According to most of what I have read, though, the aluminum hasn't widely reported any problems.


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## Cruentus (Aug 18, 2006)

Just picked up a Moss 500 persuader today.

Now, I am not sure, because that was pretty cool too.

Here is what Wikpedia (I know not exactly a scholarly source, but it gives a point of discussion, and I couldn't find anything discussing the differences between these too guns) says about the 500 vs 590:

_The primary difference between the Model 500 and Model 590 is that the Model 590 uses a different magazine tube design. The Model 500 magazines are closed at the muzzle end, and the barrel is held in place by bolting into a threaded hole at the end of the magazine tube. Model 590 magazines are open at the end, and the barrels fit around the magazine tube and are held on by a nut at the end. The Model 500 magazine facilitates easy barrel changes, as the barrel bolt serves no function other than holding the barrel in place. The Model 590 magazine facilitates easy cleaning, as removing the nut allows removal of the magazine spring and follower._

O.K.....couple of questions for you shotgun lovers out there who might know more on this then I do...

#1. Is that the only difference between the 500 and 590? I would think that there has to be more...

#2. Assuming that Wiki is true, does that basically mean that on the 500 it is easier to change the barrel, and on the 590 it is easier to clean?

#3. Keeping in mind #2, what extra steps do you have to do to change the barrel on the 590? How about clean the 500? Are there any tactical considerations with the magazine differences with these two guns?

Cool. That's all for now. That 500 I felt today was pretty sweet. I will be getting my hands on a 590 next weekend.

The people that I know are familiar with their own guns, but not the differences between the two.

So hopefully I can get a shotgun buff too do a comparison here for me. Anyone?


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## arnisandyz (Aug 19, 2006)

this might help...

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=71652

http://www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=134097


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 19, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> this might help...
> 
> http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=71652
> 
> http://www.thehighroad.org/printthread.php?t=134097


 
Arnisandyz, those were good links to explain the differances.
I have the 590A1 and you would be hard pressed to make me
happier with another shotgun.  It is an awesome home defense
tool.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## arnisandyz (Aug 20, 2006)

Thanks, only thing I disagree with from those links is "the heat shroud is useless..just for looks".

While I don't have a 590, my gun did come with a barel shroud. I use it regularly for 3 gun competitions and prefer rolling the gun over and loading strong hand, it works, everyone else who loads with this technique has to wear a glove on thier off hand.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 20, 2006)

Yes the heat shield/shroud is nice! 






Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cruentus (Aug 21, 2006)

Hmmm...

I'm still not getting a comparison that I can conceptualize between the Moss 500 and 590. So, I'll start with a simple line of questioning:

Let's talk barrels 1st.

On the 590, what is the procedure for changing barrels, and how simple or difficult is it? Also, how short in barrel length can you go with the 590 and 500 respectively?


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## Grenadier (Aug 22, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> On the 590, what is the procedure for changing barrels, and how simple or difficult is it? Also, how short in barrel length can you go with the 590 and 500 respectively?


 
The procedure for swapping barrels can be found in the manual, on page 9: 

http://stevespages.com/pdf/mossberg_500.pdf


1) Engage action lock lever.

2) Slide forearm fully rearward.

3) Slide the forearm forward slowly, until the front of the bolt is in the middle of the ejection port. 

4) Unscrew the magazine cap, and rock the barrel gently back and forth. 

As for the barrels, you have your standard 18.5" and 20" barrels.  If you want the 14.5" barrel, you need the special permits, naturally!


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## arnisandyz (Aug 22, 2006)

Most everybody I know that has a 590 leaves it as is. I've seen 20" barrels with the 8 shot tube and 18.5" A1 with the 6 (or is it 7?) tube. There is also a 14" but unless your LE or military, or pay the tax stamp (if its allowed in your area), you can't get one. By the way, does a short barrel shotgun fall under the same SBR stamp or is it am Any Other Weapon (AOW)? I've never changed a 590 barrel, but taking a look at one of my friends at the range it looks easy enough. Looks like the barrel has a ring that goes around the magazine tube,  a cap/nut on the mag tube tightens it down.  I think if you get the 20" model and want to go down in size to an 18.5" you would have to change the entire mag tube too, I think its one piece or the tube will extend past the barrel, which is OK, but there would be no reason to go to an 18.5" since the length will be close to the same as a 20" gun.  (Thinking about it...you probably wouldn't be able to, because the threads on the mag tube won't line up to the barrel ring, you would HAVE to get a new tube as well). If you get an 18.5" A1 and add a 20" barrel I believe choate makes an extension that threads on to give you more capacity...but it will be weaker. (then you have the problem of the barrel ring matching up to the mag tube again).

The 500 series seems to be more interchangable and multi-purpose, sometimes they even offer combo packages with different barrels from the factory. Seems to taylor to the civilian market for someone who wants a duck gun, but then wants to use that gun for home defense.

Depends on what you want really. Personally I don't think I would take a 590 and put a 28" barrel on it to go hunting. I'd probably just buy another 500 since they're cheap enough and leave the 590 as a dedicated defensive gun.

Mossberg markets the 500 line to civilians, for sporting use AND self defense.
They market the 590 line to LE and Military as a more ruggedized alternative to the 500, while adding features like a bayonet lug and heatshield to name a few.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Most everybody I know that has a 590 leaves it as is. I've seen 20" barrels with the 8 shot tube and 18.5" A1 with the 6 (or is it 7?) tube. There is also a 14" but unless your LE or military, or pay the tax stamp (if its allowed in your area), you can't get one. By the way, does a short barrel shotgun fall under the same SBR stamp or is it am Any Other Weapon (AOW)? I've never changed a 590 barrel, but taking a look at one of my friends at the range it looks easy enough. Looks like the barrel has a ring that goes around the magazine tube, a cap/nut on the mag tube tightens it down. I think if you get the 20" model and want to go down in size to an 18.5" you would have to change the entire mag tube too, I think its one piece or the tube will extend past the barrel, which is OK, but there would be no reason to go to an 18.5" since the length will be close to the same as a 20" gun. If you get an 18.5" A1 and add a 20" barrel I believe choate makes an extension that threads on to give you more capacity...but it will be weaker.
> 
> The 500 series seems to be more interchangable and multi-purpose, sometimes they even offer combo packages with different barrels from the factory. Seems to taylor to the civilian market for someone who wants a duck gun, but then wants to use that gun for home defense.
> 
> ...


 
I would be hard pressed to say it better than that!

Brian R. VanCise
www.isntinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## arnisandyz (Aug 22, 2006)

By the way...for home defense, the FN self-loading police is an awsome weapon. Thinking about picking one up myself.

http://www.fnhusa.com/contents/sg_selfloading.htm


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 22, 2006)

Just thinking-Im not talking about anybody here, but whenever I see discussions about "gun porn" I often wonder-as long as the gun functions reliably, does any of this "whats better" stuff really matter. Ive been on my share of firing lines and I think that some guy with a beat up old winchester model 12 that knows his stuff is worth more than some guy with a "death ray" shotgun with all the bells and whistles. If the weapon works, its the operator that needs training more than its the weapon that needs improving. IMO.


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## Grenadier (Aug 22, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Just thinking-Im not talking about anybody here, but whenever I see discussions about "gun porn" I often wonder-as long as the gun functions reliably, does any of this "whats better" stuff really matter. Ive been on my share of firing lines and I think that some guy with a beat up old winchester model 12 that knows his stuff is worth more than some guy with a "death ray" shotgun with all the bells and whistles. If the weapon works, its the operator that needs training more than its the weapon that needs improving. IMO.


 
I don't disagree on this matter, when it comes to defensive use.  If the gun functions reliably, and if it works with the desired accuracy, then it's good enough.  After all, someone who gets hit with a blast of 12 gauge 00 buckshot isn't really going to care whether it came from a Mossberg, Remington, Winchester, Benelli, Browning, etc.  Basic physics still applies, and as long as the tool allows one to take advantage of basic physics, then so be it.  

Let's face it: A grizzled ol' gunny who knows his shotguns, equipped with a battered, old Remington (but one that still works well) is going to beat out a fresh-faced recruit with no shotgun experience, no matter what he has.  

Where I will disagree, though, is that it is awfully nice to be able to customize your shotgun to how you want it.  Some people want to be able to quickly swap out a 28" barrel for an 18.5" barrel, others might want a smoother trigger pull, still others may want better sights, etc.  Perhaps someone can make a quick adjustment by swapping out some parts to their shotgun to turn it from a 3-shot longer range hunting gun into a 9-shot close-quartered defensive weapon.  

Maybe some people might be better off with two shotguns instead of one that can handle it all.  I won't disagree with their lines of thinking either, since I can certainly understand (and am 100% guilty) of having more!


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## SFC JeffJ (Aug 22, 2006)

Lol, I understand where you are coming from, but a conversation about Mossberg's hardly seems like "gun porn".  They are too cheap and ugly for that.

Jeff


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## Kreth (Aug 22, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> the weapon works, its the operator that needs training more than its the weapon that needs improving. IMO.


True, but one "improvement" is modification to make the weapon more efficient for home defense. The Mossberg 500 is really versatile in this respect. You can go out skeet shooting with a standard stock and long barrel, then swap to a shorter barrel and pistol grip to make it less cumbersome for home defense.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 22, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> If the weapon works, its the operator that needs training more than its the weapon that needs improving. IMO.



Good point. Thats why I think most people with 590s leave them as is. When you start tinkering with mag extensions, etc reliablity could go down. 

That being said, I don't look at it so much this gun is better than that gun, but which gun fits me better and will serve my needs better. Its a decision to make as an informed buyer. In this case you can't go wrong with either an 870 or a 590. But what if I wanted to use it for a specific task...say 3 gun competition? What would be better for me needs?  The 590 with the 8+1 capacity (class max capacity) WILL give me an advantage over using an 18" barrel with 7+1 capacity. You can say its the operator...if he learns to load faster will negate the advantage, but given the choice most competitors will maximize the weapon to thier needs and load to 8+1. If your need is home defense you might want a shorter barrel and give up capacity for manueverability.

But I get where your coming from. We get alot of new shooters with pimped out tactical rail ARs with stuff hanging all over it getting beat easily by guys with KISS guns.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

As far as being able to use the tool it definately comes down to the person.  Experience and training count alot in that matter.  

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Cruentus (Aug 22, 2006)

As for me...I'm trying to decide which one to buy, so I am asking questions that will help me better figure out which fits my needs.

So, now that we've compared barrel length, let me ask about mag capacity.

Basically, if you want 18.5" barrel for home defense, you will be restricted to a 7+1 rather then an 8+1. Am I correct?

Next question:

Is there any difference in Mag construction between the 590 and 500 that matter, other then cleaning?

Also...thanks for the discussion everyone, btw...


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## arnisandyz (Aug 22, 2006)

In general, if you want the mag tube to line up close to the barrel an 18.5" will hold 6 or 7, a 20-22" will hold 8 or 9. Theoretically...you COULD get an 18.5" 590 and if a company made an extension add a couple rounds to it. the extension would simply replace the locking cap and extend beyond the barrel. I wouldn't suggest doing it on a defensive gun because you would then have a weak link...that long extension hanging off is just begging to get wacked into a door frame and dump all your rounds.

You could get a Knoxx Sidewinder Drum conversion and have 10 rounds on an 18.5" barrel (or 6 rounds in a box magazine) but its expensive.

I believe the magazine tube construction is the same (just guessing) but parkerized instead of blued.

What are your "needs"? Is this strickly a home defense gun or is it something you might take out occasionally in the field?  I made my decision of the HK/Fabarm FP6 based on a couple things. I needed a pump shotgun for 3-gun competition that could do double duty has a home defense gun.  The FP6 has as 20" chokable tri-bore barrel. This allowed me to add an extension bringing capacity up to 8+1 rounds (class limit) without fear of the extension being knocked off. With my external choke it lines up perfectly to the barrel. The choke is REAL important because it lets me pattern the gun according to the stage design. We have alot of new guys using home defense shotties with no chokes and they have a terrible time on the steels, it patterns too wide not putting enough shot on target. Barrel length has some effect on patterning, but the right choke could make all the difference. As a home defense gun it sits in the safe ready to go if I need it, but my primary is my 1911. Its just easier with a handgun to go into and out of doors and taking angles inside the house then with a shoulder weapon. The shotgun will stay in the closet with my wife and daughter as they sit and wait for the all clear, length doesn't really matter.


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## Blotan Hunka (Aug 22, 2006)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Good point. Thats why I think most people with 590s leave them as is. When you start tinkering with mag extensions, etc reliablity could go down.
> 
> That being said, I don't look at it so much this gun is better than that gun, but which gun fits me better and will serve my needs better. Its a decision to make as an informed buyer. In this case you can't go wrong with either an 870 or a 590. But what if I wanted to use it for a specific task...say 3 gun competition? What would be better for me needs? The 590 with the 8+1 capacity (class max capacity) WILL give me an advantage over using an 18" barrel with 7+1 capacity. You can say its the operator...if he learns to load faster will negate the advantage, but given the choice most competitors will maximize the weapon to thier needs and load to 8+1. If your need is home defense you might want a shorter barrel and give up capacity for manueverability.
> 
> But I get where your coming from. We get alot of new shooters with pimped out tactical rail ARs with stuff hanging all over it getting beat easily by guys with KISS guns.


 
I agree with yall 100%. My little tangent was just a train of thought passing the station. 

Your comment about the operator just learning to load faster reminded me of a recent shotgun competition I saw on ESPN2. A sporting clays competition was won by an Army shooting team member with an over/under. What made an inpression on me was that his opponent had an auto-loader. After every shot, the Army guy just cracked the action open-reloaded-and was ready to go, he was smooth, practiced and scary fast. The guy with the auto-loader, after he missed with two shots, was just not as fast and smooth with his reloads and wound up missing more targets. 

Not that this directly compares to combat/3 gun competitions, but the difference in operator skill vs. weapon selection impressed me in this case. Im a firm believer in "form follows function" add stuff because its function is someting you can use, not just because some spec-ops soldiers use it. Most of you all aint spec-ops, and almost all of us arent going to be pulling down spec-ops missions from our easy chairs.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 22, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> Your comment about the operator just learning to load faster reminded me of a recent shotgun competition I saw on ESPN2. A sporting clays competition was won by an Army shooting team member with an over/under. What made an inpression on me was that his opponent had an auto-loader. After every shot, the Army guy just cracked the action open-reloaded-and was ready to go, he was smooth, practiced and scary fast. )



Funny you mention that, I was at one match where one guy brought a side-by-side! He was deciding on if he wanted to really get into 3gunning so he just grabbed what he had. Going against guys with autoloaders and 9 rounds he got beat badly, but it was the neatest thing to see him shoot and I learn alot from watching him. Because he was way down on capacity he would study the course and shoot from strategic angles so he could hit mutliple targets with one shot. He would get down prone so he could take a clay (on a holder) in the forground and a popper in the distance, etc. This is what got me started shooting the edges of steel to take multiple targets.


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