# Loaf in prison: Cruel or unusual punishment?



## Grenadier (Aug 7, 2008)

While eating a slice of my wholesome banana bread this morning (made with whole wheat flour, bananas, Splenda, egg beaters, vanilla, half the oil of the usual recipe, etc), I thought of how I had made an entire loaf of it.  

Upon thinking about that, I remembered how various prisons would serve a modified version of this recipe (heh) to their badly behaving prisoners.  Some people call it cruel and / or unusual punishment, but do they really have a legitimate beef about it?  

I personally don't think so.  It looks like "loaf" has all of the nutrients and calories needed to sustain our badly behaving prisoners.  If it tastes like bland bread, what are they complaining about?  

Furthermore, why are people the likes of Jennifer Wynn being so overly sensitive?  

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/750232/posts



> The Eighth Amendment to our Constitution says even if we've broken the law, our government can't inflict cruel and unusual punishment on us. Some prisoners say that's exactly what's going on when they're given "the loaf."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## punisher73 (Aug 7, 2008)

Well, the law is cruel AND unusual punishment.  There is nothing unusual about it, and as far as cruel, well they are still getting the daily amount of calories and nutrients as required by law.  There is NO law that I am aware of that states how those are to be administered.  You only get put on "food loaf" for messing up and earning punishment.  At our facility you usually earn food loaf for throwing your food at a deputy or something along those lines.  It also has to be approved by a shift supervisor and the situation fits the punishment.  Not sure what other places do.

Again, you can try and sue for anything.  When I was down in Indiana there was a guy who sued the prison system because he didn't get raisins in his pudding and others did and they wouldn't give him new pudding.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2008)

Personally I don't know why they're complaining.  Its not like the regular meals that they get come from a 5 star restaurant.  Pain and suffering...hmm...I wonder if they complain because they don't have a soft cushy bed either.  

Bottom line...don't do the crime if you can't do the time!  Prison is a place you go when you do something wrong, its not Club Med.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 7, 2008)

Grenadier said:


> While eating a slice of my wholesome banana bread this morning (made with whole wheat flour, bananas, Splenda, egg beaters, vanilla, half the oil of the usual recipe, etc), I thought of how I had made an entire loaf of it.
> 
> Upon thinking about that, I remembered how various prisons would serve a modified version of this recipe (heh) to their badly behaving prisoners. Some people call it cruel and / or unusual punishment, but do they really have a legitimate beef about it?
> 
> ...


 The loaf is for people that throw food at the guards. If they weren't throwing food they would be able to eat normaly. Nothing that cruel about the loaf, considering the offenses that got it made.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 7, 2008)

MJS said:


> Personally I don't know why they're complaining. Its not like the regular meals that they get come from a 5 star restaurant. Pain and suffering...hmm...I wonder if they complain because they don't have a soft cushy bed either.
> 
> Bottom line...don't do the crime if you can't do the time! Prison is a place you go when you do something wrong, its not Club Med.


We still have to look at how we treat our fellow human beings, but in this case you are right.
Sean


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> We still have to look at how we treat our fellow human beings, but in this case you are right.
> Sean


 
I know what you mean.


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## arnisador (Aug 7, 2008)

This doesn't seem too bad to me.


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## Kacey (Aug 7, 2008)

You're in jail... you're clean, fed, warm, clothed... unless there's something in that loaf that you're allergic to, get over it - it's not like you're at a resort or something.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2008)

Kacey said:


> You're in jail... you're clean, fed, warm, clothed... unless there's something in that loaf that you're allergic to, get over it - it's not like you're at a resort or something.


 
Exactly!!!!  My version of cruel and unusual punsihment and their version are 2 very different things.  I highly doubt that any meals that are served are fantastic, but I'm also pretty sure that the food that is offered is approved by the state.  

As I said in another post, I also understand that we still have to, by law, treat inmates like humans, but I don't see anything wrong with this 'loaf.'  Its not like they're withholding any food at all, and if I'm reading right, they only get it when they screw up, so...

And as for Jennifer...well, I wonder if shes ever set foot in a prison.  I have and I am sure that the guys that throw urine and other things at the staff are not all mentally ill...they're just dirtbag criminals that have no remorse for anyone or for their actions.  As for counseling...please...those guys don't want help...they want a few hours out of their cells.


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## Nolerama (Aug 7, 2008)

> "The loaf" is bread with milk, carrots and potatoes added for nutrition, so it's a full meal. At some prisons, inmates who keep misbehaving get the loaf with water and raw cabbage, instead of regular prison food.


That doesn't sound half bad. Add a few spices to that, and tack on a celebrity chef, give it a fancy name, and you've got yourself a food trend.

They already do that with "Sweetbreads" which is really just the glands and less desirable parts of an animal. That's put into a loaf, pan-fried, and served in tiny increments for $20 a plate in some restaurants.

"Vegetarian Sweetbread"?? I think we have a winner. MT can pitch the idea to the Food Network:

Prison Posh- Making Your Stay As Tasty As Possible.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 7, 2008)

MJS said:


> Exactly!!!! My version of cruel and unusual punsihment and their version are 2 very different things. I highly doubt that any meals that are served are fantastic, but I'm also pretty sure that the food that is offered is approved by the state.
> 
> As I said in another post, I also understand that we still have to, by law, treat inmates like humans, but I don't see anything wrong with this 'loaf.' Its not like they're withholding any food at all, and if I'm reading right, they only get it when they screw up, so...
> 
> And as for Jennifer...well, I wonder if shes ever set foot in a prison. I have and I am sure that the guys that throw urine and other things at the staff are not all mentally ill...they're just dirtbag criminals that have no remorse for anyone or for their actions. As for counseling...please...those guys don't want help...they want a few hours out of their cells.


Actually the prisons are full of mentaly ill people.
sean


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## Kacey (Aug 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually the prisons are full of mentaly ill people.
> sean



This is true... but that doesn't mean that all prisoners who behave in the way described are mentally ill.


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## MJS (Aug 7, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually the prisons are full of mentaly ill people.
> sean


 
Yes, I understand that.  However, let me clarify. In my post I stated the following:

"I have and I am sure that the guys that throw urine and other things at the staff are not all mentally ill."

I fully understand that there are mentally ill inmates.  But, the throwing of urine and crap at the COs is not limited to mentally ill inmates.  Like I said, I have to wonder just how much Jen knows about the ins and outs of a prison.  Suggesting treatment is the first straw that folks like her usually grasp at.  What those people usually fail to understand is the fact that treatment is an option that doesnt always work due to the fact that you cant force the inmate to reform if they don't have any desire to.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2008)

MJS said:


> Yes, I understand that. However, let me clarify. In my post I stated the following:
> 
> "I have and I am sure that the guys that throw urine and other things at the staff are not all mentally ill."
> 
> I fully understand that there are mentally ill inmates. But, the throwing of urine and crap at the COs is not limited to mentally ill inmates. Like I said, I have to wonder just how much Jen knows about the ins and outs of a prison. Suggesting treatment is the first straw that folks like her usually grasp at. What those people usually fail to understand is the fact that treatment is an option that doesnt always work due to the fact that you cant force the inmate to reform if they don't have any desire to.


Not to mention some mentaly ill people have good upbringings and some were neglected by their mentaly ill parent or parents. By the time they make it to adulthood the system has to work with what they are presented with.
Sean


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 8, 2008)

Who cares what the inmates eat, let em' eat sh** sandwiches for all I care.  I worked in the prison system as a C.O. and let me tell ya the cooks put anything and everything in the food (and I mean everything if you know what I mean, ie; pee & ejaculate). We C.O.'s had to eat the same food as them or bring our own.  I brought my own food. Hell, if the inmates won't eat it I'm sure not going to.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Who cares what the inmates eat, let em' eat sh** sandwiches for all I care. I worked in the prison system as a C.O. and let me tell ya the cooks put anything and everything in the food (and I mean everything if you know what I mean, ie; pee & ejaculate). We C.O.'s had to eat the same food as them or bring our own. I brought my own food. Hell, if the inmates won't eat it I'm sure not going to.


Good thing you are no longer involved.
Sean


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 8, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Good thing you are no longer involved.
> Sean


 
Why is that? You think I'm to hard on these scum bags? All these inmates have to do is think all day long how they can make my day even worse and how they can get away with things.  They broke the law to get there so IMO they have no rights.  If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


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## CoryKS (Aug 8, 2008)

Probably wouldn't be pleasant to eat only this stuff on a regular basis.  But I'll but you could make some awesome sammiches with it.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 8, 2008)

I'm sure the inmates could make something out of it.  They make something called jack mac out of canned mackeral and mac n' cheese and sometimes raemon noodles.  It's totally gross


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 8, 2008)

MJS said:


> Personally I don't know why they're complaining.  Its not like the regular meals that they get come from a 5 star restaurant.  Pain and suffering...hmm...I wonder if they complain because they don't have a soft cushy bed either.
> 
> Bottom line...don't do the crime if you can't do the time!  Prison is a place you go when you do something wrong, its not Club Med.



Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.

On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]


*** On top of it, most of the prison guards are un-educated, violent morons who aren't much different from the prisoners they contain ***

Our prison system is really, really, stupid.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Why is that? You think I'm to hard on these scum bags? All these inmates have to do is think all day long how they can make my day even worse and how they can get away with things. They broke the law to get there so IMO they have no rights. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.


Actually they do have rights... human rights.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 8, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.
> 
> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]
> 
> ...


If nothing else it is a vicious circle.
Sean


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## theletch1 (Aug 9, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.
> 
> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]
> 
> ...


Painting a picture of prisons guards with such a broad brush is just as dangerous as doing the same with inmates.  While I will grant you that there are some really deplorable people in guard positions, I also have to believe that they fall into the 10% category of most professions.  We have more than one member here on the board that are in charge of inmates in one form or another.  I haven't noticed any of them being "uneducated, violent morons".


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> Who cares what the inmates eat, let em' eat sh** sandwiches for all I care. I worked in the prison system as a C.O. and let me tell ya the cooks put anything and everything in the food (and I mean everything if you know what I mean, ie; pee & ejaculate).


 
The kitchen where I worked was supervised by a CO.  I never had the job of working in the kitchen, but it wouldn't surprise me if something didn't get 'added' into the meal.




> We C.O.'s had to eat the same food as them or bring our own. I brought my own food. Hell, if the inmates won't eat it I'm sure not going to.


 
I, as well as everyone else that I worked with brought their meals.  There were a few times when I was held over, that I was offered a sandwich, however, I declined and hit the vending machine.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.


 
True.  There was a guy in CT a while back that was actually awarded money due to the fact that he spent many years behind bars only to be found innocent.



> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.


 
I don't know if I'd go so far as to say that.




> *** On top of it, most of the prison guards are un-educated, violent morons who aren't much different from the prisoners they contain ***
> 
> Our prison system is really, really, stupid.


 
There is no need to take shots like this, despite your real feelings.  There are some here that do the same towards LEOs and personally, comments like that have no place on here.


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## Kacey (Aug 9, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.



And this excuses the behavior described in the OP... how?  If I were unlucky enough to be placed in jail or prison for a crime I did not commit, does that mean that I can throw food and urine at those employed there?



Bodhisattva said:


> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.



Again... this excuses the behavior described in the OP... how?  I understand what you mean when you say "victimless" crime - but I disagree with the term and its usage.  Simply because no one was physically injured, or because the crime was perpetrated upon large numbers of people (as in embezzlement from a company) does not mean there is no "victim" - it means that the effects are spread among a larger number of people, who must all suffer therefrom.  We all pay higher prices to cover the cost of shoplifting - thus we are all victims of this type of crime.  Everyone who does business with a particular company becomes a victim when the company loses money, or goes under, because of embezzlement.  Price gouging and fixing is illegal - but again, the victims are widespread and many in this "victimless" crime.  Should these people go unpunished?

Now... whether or not these people should be in jail, and systems for potential alternative punishments is a topic for another thread.



Bodhisattva said:


> *** On top of it, most of the prison guards are un-educated, violent morons who aren't much different from the prisoners they contain ***



And you base this on... what?  Personal experience?  Media reporting?  This is a very stereotypical view - and like most stereotypes, if you cannot back it up with fact, it's liable to lead you into trouble in the future.



Bodhisattva said:


> Our prison system is really, really, stupid.



The prison system itself is not stupid; after all, it is not the prisons which determine who is placed there.  The legal system is due for overhaul, like much of our governmental system - if you must place blame somewhere, the judiciary is a better target.  So... other than blaming the prisons and prison employees, what are you doing to better the situation?  What better suggestions do you have for people who waste food in an immature manner than to provide them with food that is less interesting to eat and easier to clean up?


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## jks9199 (Aug 9, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.


Define "tons."  Yes, there are definitely people in prison who didn't commit the crime they were convicted of.  That's not the same as saying they're innocent; I've seen people plea bargain to offenses that were all but unrelated to the original offense (grand larceny to trespass, for example).  They weren't innocent; I watched them steal the stuff.  

There are fewer people who are truly innocent but get convicted or just plead on bad advice.  It's not easy to do in the US legal system, however.



> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]


Please, define a "victimless crime."  I take great exception to that description of offenses.  Who's the victim in prostitution?  Often, the prostitute, and the john's family, too.  Who's the victim in drug possession?  Everyone effected by it, except the dealer.


> *** On top of it, most of the prison guards are un-educated, violent morons who aren't much different from the prisoners they contain ***
> 
> Our prison system is really, really, stupid.



I take great exception to your description of correctional officers.  Most that I know are trained professionals, working in one of the most demanding environments possible.  In practical terms, EVERYONE they deal with is a criminal, and the COs are unarmed while they deal with them -- and very outnumbered.  By people who often have nothing to do all day but come up with ways to screw with the COs.  The days of the guard being barely one step above the inmate are long gone.


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## arnisador (Aug 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> There are fewer people who are truly innocent but get convicted or just plead on bad advice.


 
Yes, but it is important to remember that they're in prison too.



> Please, define a "victimless crime."


 
Indeed. Our area is hard hit by property theft crimes (esp. metal theft) to pay for drugs, for example. Jaywalking on an empty street at midnight--OK, that's victimless. But most crimes exact a cost from society. Jaywalk in the middle of the day and risk causing a pile-up of cars trying to avoid you.



> I take great exception to your description of correctional officers.  Most that I know are trained professionals, working in one of the most demanding environments possible.  In practical terms, EVERYONE they deal with is a criminal, and the COs are unarmed while they deal with them -- and very outnumbered.  By people who often have nothing to do all day but come up with ways to screw with the COs.



I think this is true. But I'm also sure there are plenty of COs (and LEOs) for whom familiarity has bred contempt. Again, I think we must keep that in mind while remembering it's the exception, not the rule.


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## Cryozombie (Aug 9, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Please, define a "victimless crime."


 
Drinking quietly in public.  If you are doing somthing stupid or being a rowdy *******, then no, but many places just consuming in public is a crime.

A car dealership selling a car on Sunday. Who's the Victim? God?

Carrying a switchblade.  If its ok to carry any other assisted opener, why is the act of carrying a switchblade a crime?  No Victim in that crime, unless you use it on a person.

Carrying car entry tools.  If you have them to help people who request it, who is the victim, just because you HAVE them? 

Consentual Oral/Anal sex.  Hey... theres laws on the books against it some places...

There ARE plenty of "victimless" crimes... mostly things that we make Criminal out of fear that someone MIGHT commit a crime if they had access to it/did it or because someone at sometime found it to be morally abiguous.  I'm certainly not arguing the prisons are full of these people, only that they exist.


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## Ninjamom (Aug 9, 2008)

True, Cryo, there are many crimes that are truly 'victimless'.  However, these laws are mostly ones that people are not sent to jail for breaking.  Charges for 'Victimless' crimes are added to the package of charges to help force a plea agreement, add mitigating circumstances to increase the allowed jail time in sentencing guidelines, or just because they are easier to prove than the 'real' reason the person was arrested.

For a good example, according to the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ, or the 'law book' that governs all military members), it is a court-martialable offense for an officer to commit adultery.   While I personally think adultery can wreak havoc in a home (i.e., it isn't really 'victimless'), most folks would consider adultery between consenting adults to be in the category of a 'victimless crime'.  Last time I checked, about 20 or so officers were prosecuted under this statute per year. However, in each case, the charge was not as a stand-alone offense, but usually coupled with charges of rape or sexual assault (charges usually harder to prove beyond reasonable doubt, with only the physical evidence and the vicitm's testimony that the action was not consentual).


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## lemon_meringue (Aug 9, 2008)

> "The loaf" is bread with milk, carrots and potatoes added for nutrition, so it's a full meal. At some prisons, inmates who keep misbehaving get the loaf with water and raw cabbage, instead of regular prison food.
> 
> 
> But now prisoners are suing the prison system, claiming the loaf is cruel  "causing pain and suffering." For that and other injustices, they want millions of dollars in damages.


 
Ironic that the world's starving would most likely be willing to commit various crimes just to get some of that loaf and live for another day...


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## arnisador (Aug 10, 2008)

Jean Valjean, anyone?


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## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> True, Cryo, there are many crimes that are truly 'victimless'. However, these laws are mostly ones that people are not sent to jail for breaking.


 
Oh I agree, which is why I said that I wouldnt argue that the prisons are full of those people.  I only wanted to point out that they exist.


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## lemon_meringue (Aug 10, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Jean Valjean, anyone?



Exactly what I was thinking.


Unless you mean....



> *Jean Val Jean*; (born June 19, 1980,Montlucon, France) is a Pornographic actor. In 2007 Jean Val Jean won the AVN Male Foreign Performer of the Year


Sorry....couldn't resist....


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## Brother John (Aug 10, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Actually the prisons are full of mentaly ill people.
> sean


 
Nationally the average is:
 70% of all adult incarcerated men are seriously mentally ill.

Your Brother
John


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 12, 2008)

Brother John said:


> Nationally the average is:
> 70% of all adult incarcerated men are seriously mentally ill.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


And wouldn't it be better to reach them as children than try to correct them as adults. This is the root of the prison system being our largest GOP. France won't even let you name your kid. You are provided a list to pick from.This is a little over the top but you get the point.
Sean


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## Twin Fist (Aug 12, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.
> 
> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]
> 
> ...



oh no you did not...............

how many sweeping generalzations can fit in one post? THAT many...

do you realize how many you just insulted with that post?


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 13, 2008)

Brother John said:


> Nationally the average is:
> 70% of all adult incarcerated men are seriously mentally ill.
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
And what country is this in?  It certainly isn't the U.S..  I worked in the prison system for a few years and I never saw any mentally ill people. I saw plenty of hep C and drug addicts but no mentally ill.


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## MJS (Aug 13, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> And wouldn't it be better to reach them as children than try to correct them as adults. Sean


 
Of course, and that starts at home.  Of course, if the parents can't raise their kids right, refuse to get them help, admit theres a problem, or if the kid doesn't accept the help, well.....


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## punisher73 (Aug 14, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Actually, there are tons of people in prison currently who never committed the crimes for which they were convicted.
> 
> On top of that, MOST of the people in prison are in there for comitting victimless crimes.]


 

Hmmm, I guess I would like you to define "victimless" here.  I have sat in literally hundreds of sentencings and I have never seen someone go to prison here in our county for something with no victim.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 15, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> And what country is this in? It certainly isn't the U.S.. I worked in the prison system for a few years and I never saw any mentally ill people. I saw plenty of hep C and drug addicts but no mentally ill.


What do mentaly ill people look like in case I see one? LOL There is such a thing as self medicating.
Sean


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 15, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> What do mentaly ill people look like in case I see one? LOL There is such a thing as self medicating.
> Sean


 
Mentally ill people look just like everyone else if medicated.  Most convicts that I ever saw were drug dealers.


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