# So, You Want To Carry  A Knife For Self-Defense



## elder999

Well, maybe you have good reason, but there’s some _reasoning_ you should do. I went to the Mancave, dragged some examples out of the knife drawer (you don’t have a “knife drawer?” You probably don’t have a Mancave, either! )




I’m also going to use a couple of actual cases as examples-especially the New York case of Isaias Umali, an Atienza kali practitioner who used a knife and was tried and convicted for it, and offer some questions you should be asking before you walk out the door with a blade.

First one, of course, is:

1)      Is this life legal for me to carry? Is it prudent?

Now, this doesn’t constitute “legal” advice-it’s only my thoughts and the processes I’ve been involved in over the years.  If you want legal advice, talk to a lawyer-_seriously_-*I did.* More to the point, I talk to police officers as well-get the law for the jurisdiction you’re in, and ask some authorities-you’ll learn something interesting: interpretation of that law is circumstantial, and entirely subjective-if a cop wants to arrest you for something, he will. More to the point, as we’ll see,  if a prosecutor wants to take you to court, very often he’s going to. In New York, by way of example, there is no statute for “self-defense,” only the standard of “reasonable and prudent,” and “equal force.” (If you don’t know what these things are, you need to look them up-not just for carrying a knife, but for all self-defense scenarios).  Back in the 60’s, when we lived in NYC,  my mom-who was a nurse at the time-was warned about carrying scissors in her purse: a nurse took scissors out of her purse to stab a rapist in an elevator, and was charged-*and convicted*-of carrying a “concealed weapon,” as well as attempted manslaughter.

On the other hand, in New Mexico, it’s perfectly legal for me to carry a sword, or a kukri, Bowie or Arkansas toothpick on my belt:



though it’s likely to attract more attention than if I had a pistol there, so it wouldn’t be prudent.

We don’t want our knives to draw too much attention.


I can put a clip on folder in my pocket, and-*in New Mexico*- if the clip is showing, it’s not concealed. In California though, I have to carry a fixed blade that’s visible on my belt.

Though not any of those…we’ll get to that, though.Second question (or, if you prefer, “question 1A):

2)    Is this knife _ appropriate_ for self-defense?

Meaning, of course-is it what a “reasonable and prudent”  person might carry, or is it something that could be used against me in a possible prosecution?

You likely wouldn't be making a case for the prosecutor with them, but we also want to be able to use them for self defense-so that  kind of rules out a Swiss Army knife or a Leatherman, for most of us-too cumbersome to deploy.We need something we can get out and ready with one hand, preferably

Take, for instance, the assisted-opening folder.

This is one of my faves.


And I also have this one-it’s what I call an “***-hole knife.”


I love them-and, while not a switchblade, or a gravity knife, they can be looked askance at-all it would take is drawing blood with one, and the fact of its mechanism could be used against you.  I also tend to avoid serrated edges.

Likewise, the words associated with it: I don’t think you  want anything that uses *any* of these words in its name, or has any of them on the blade or handle:

_Tactical, Special Forces, Special Ops, Dark, Warrior, Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Law Enforcement, Police, SWAT, Remington, Smith and Wesson, Uzi, Israeli, Ninja, Stilleto, Dagger_

Like the “***-hole knife”:


These aren’t the only ones, of course, but they’re a start-avoid firearm names, law enforcement, or armed forces-essentially, anything that associates the knife with _killing_-you want to have other uses for it, be seen using it for those things, and be able to state that’s what it’s for: cutting fruit, or boxes or rope or the like. *Not* for ventilating your fellow human-beings, or subhuman scumbags. This, for example, is the “Big Boy _Tactical Stilleto”_ It says so, right there on the fully six inch long blade, and it has assisted opening to boot: a virtual prosecutorial trifecta.



This is, another “***-hole” knife. I’d never buy such a thing-though I have a box full of their like, the knives I’ve taken off of ***-holes, over the years….

Avoid anything over-hyped. Anything sold by the Bud-K catalog. Anything from Cold Steel. Good as some of that stuff might be, the verbiage could come back to bite you.

In the Umali case, the prosecutor described his knife as a “special forces, tactical military *weapon.*” The fact that it was a folder, and was described as “six inches long” (this was actually the length of his Spyderco knife when opened-*not* the blade length):


did not help him at all either-because he was in New York City. Back in the day, as a few of you know, I carried a pen with me in NYC –strictly for self-defense, because I couldn’t carry anything else legally, and wound up using it-(more of that later)

I think one should also avoid special shapes, Balisongs (no matter the legality) and kerambits.



Mr. Umali was partially convicted by his rather innocent choice in blades.

3)      Can I part with this knife?

If you use a knife under even a self-defense circumstance, it might just be taken into evidence. You might not ever get it back. If it has sentimental or monetary value, you might want to reconsider carrying it around. That hunting knife of my grandfather’s:



Well, it says “Remington” on it, anyway, so I just take it hunting, and no where else-not even to California, where I need a fixed blade just like it.

That nice folder my wife got me with the faux scrimshaw on the handle?



Ditto-not to mention the odd shape that might be misconstrued. Keep it in the display case in the Mancave, or take it sailing, like she got it for....

4)Am I trained to use this knife ? Can I use it appropriately?

Get training-and make sure it offers some non-lethal options. In fact, the non-lethal ones might be better, sometimes: Brian van Cise recently posted a Facebook link to a stabbing-a man was stabbed in the heart, managed to get the better of his attacker, and dropped dead later-like a full minute after being stabbed in the heart. Most people who have been stabbed and lived to talk about it will tell you that they didn’t know they’d been stabbed; they thought they’d been punched, and they kept on fighting. Really, a very effective way to use a knife for self-defense is to take away an assailant’s ability to move: sever large muscle connection: it’s non-lethal, and immediately effective. In any case, you want to make sure that you’re trained to respond with a “reasonable and prudent” level of “equal force.” Mr. Umali’s response-to what was, in fact, a plausibly lethal and frightening threat to his friend-was described by the prosecutor as an intentional “thrust, a twist and a pull,” that was meant to sever the femoral artery.

Mr. Umali was partially convicted by his training.

(I knew Alain Atienza’s dad, back in the day, when his kali was called Kapunan Ng Kali-“Atienza kali” has it’s roots in and is not too different from Pekiti  Tirsia, which is  pretty much for killing people)

4) Knowing how to use this knife, do I have the stomach and will to do so?

Well, you won’t really know beforehand, unless the answer is a pretty clear “no.”

Fact is, though, once you’ve  poked a hole (or two or three) into someone, you’ll know something about yourself either way, and you’ll have to live with it. Maybe, as most expect, you’ll be sickened by what you’ve done-especially if you kill your assailant. Maybe, as it is for a few of us, you’ll be glad to be alive, and wondering  where your next meal will be, and when you’ll get some sleep. It was that way for me, in spite of having one eye glued shut with the guy’s blood-admittedly, that sort of grossed and freaked me out, but, at 4:30 in the morning, sitting in the police station,  I wolfed down three slices of leftover, cold, congealed pizza from earlier in their shift……I’ve never had pizza that tasted so good-not before, and-33 years later-not since. I tell this not to brag,(Guns of Will Sonnett:_Not brag.Just *fact*_)  but to point out that it’s a helluva thing to find out about yourself at 21-that you could kill a guy, holding him so close to you that you could smell the grease coming out of his pores, and you could hear his last whispered words (Irony: _What’d you do *that* for?_) and just go ahead and eat a sandwich-the kind of thing some people shouldn’t know, and some would rather not know-some who’ll insist that they’d feel just awful, and need therapy, when all I needed was some food, a shower, and some sleep……helluva thing. In any case, some psychological preparation is in order, as well as simply knowing and training for how to behave-Mr. Umali freaked out afterward.

Mr. Umali was partially convicted by freaking out. Which leads to question 5:

5) How do I behave afterward?

In most instances: don’t run away. Wait for the police. *Call* the police. Organize witnesses.

When the cops get there, identify yourself, and say this, and *only* this:

_“He/they attacked me. I was in fear for my life. I defended myself. I’m not saying anything else now.”_

This is, generally, the advice of lawyers, self-defense experts, and some cops-and I agree with it. Of course, some cops are going to howl at this, that you have nothing to hide and there’s no harm in talking, but you’re going to be rattled, and you need to be composed-and not to appear too composed immediately-basically, anything you do is going to make _someone_ suspicious, so choose the one that offers the least possibility of increasing that suspicion . Honest cops, in an unguarded moment, will also tell you that they’re tools of the prosecution, if such a thing happens, no matter what they think about your case, so act accordingly. Don’t attempt to conceal anything; don’t freak out, but don’t tell them more than that.

Mr. Umali ran out of the club, threw away his knife and bloodied clothes, ran to a friend (his kali instructor, who testified against him for immunity) and tried to hide his involvement.

Mr. Umali was partially convicted by his actions afterward.

6)    So, what kind of knife do I carry?
Now, you’ve answered the first  five questions-what kind of knife do you think you should carry? If it’s a folder, it should be innocuous and inexpensive:



I can open either of these nearly as fast as an assisted opening folder, and look, this one came from the “Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation”


It’s Obama”peopleliketohunt” Friendly!

Likewise, in Californiastan, I carry a fixed blade that is inexpensive and inconspicuous.

They’re all cheap and serviceable, and eminently replaceable. I can even wear the fixed blade in a California legal fashion that borders on “concealed.”

So, there you have it-except, of course, one final bit of advice when it comes to knives, whatever you carry:

_Keep your knife *SHARP.*_


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## Buka

Great damn post. I hope everybody reads it and spends some time thinking about it.


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## Tony Dismukes

Good post.

I've occasionally considered carrying a knife for self-defense. Right now the deciding factors are

1) In 50 years of life I've never been in a position where I've needed to use a knife for self-defense.
2) I _have_ been in situations where having a knife could very easily have made things worse.


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## elder999

Tony Dismukes said:


> Good post.
> 
> I've occasionally considered carrying a knife for self-defense. Right now the deciding factors are
> 
> 1) In 50 years of life I've never been in a position where I've needed to use a knife for self-defense.
> 2) I _have_ been in situations where having a knife could very easily have made things worse.



A great deal of the time, I carry a gun

All of the time, especially the rest of the time, if I can, I carry a knife-I use it, as I posted, for fruit, boxes, rope and such.......I keep it, like I keep all my knives, *sharp*. 

Of course, they can always stay in my pocket or their sheath, and not make those situations (which I've also seen, though not so frequently in the last decade or so) worse.....


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## Mephisto

Great post, i've been preaching many of your points for a while now, i'm glad i'm not the only one that thinks this way. I've been surprised when I bring up the legalities behind carrying a martial arts weapon or knife in some martial arts circles. The topic of an every day carry weapon came up in the "martial arts community" on face book page/group. Many martial arts guys some claiming to be involved in martial arts for years had some pretty ridiculous ideas about what to carry. One guy listed nunckucks as his edc and there were lots of specialized martial arts weapons listed. The whole crowd was a fan of the "better tried by 12 than carried by 6" or however it goes cliche. This is a terrible way of thinking, life in prison can be a fate worse than death in some cases. You'd be better off pulling a gun than nunckucks in my book. The jury and how things will play out in court are important to consider. If you're going to take the time to prepare yourself for the worst case scenario by training martial arts you should take the time to do more than read martial arts and "warrior wisdom" quotes. A lot of the same thoughts and sayings get passed around in the martial arts world and just because a higher rank says it many are quick to jump on the bandwagon and agree. You have to question everything, that includes advice from your instructors (not specifically related to technique, although skepticism about technique wouldn't hurt in some cases).

I gotta agree with the OP, if you kill a guy in self defense the last thing you want is to be painted as a trained killer by the jury. Your weapon of choice can have a lot to do with this. A custom $400 karambit is certainly cool , but leave it at home for the collection. A bowie knife might be appropriate to carry on a hunting or camping trip but don't roll around in the city with it under your seat, unless maybe you've still got all your other camping gear in the car from a recent trip. Unfortunately, the way the justice system works some times innocent people end up on the wrong side of the law.

I've been to classes where we've trained empty hand vs knife, we would disarm the attacker and put him on the ground, than proceed to slice and dice him with his recently disarmed blade. It might be good for the battlefield, or maybe if you're attacked by several armed criminals, but if someone walks up on you stabbing a downed man things can easily tilt in the favor of your attacker, beware of technique overkill. People often go back to the  "better tried by 12 than carried by 6" mantra when performing technique overkill, just beware and use common sense, realize that what they're saying is an old cliche and an oversimplification.  Keep in mind that if attacked you could easily get in as much trouble as your attacker. 

As mentioned by the OP and me you don't want to look like a trained killer to a jury of peers. As a martial artist you're not a regular person in some respects and most people can't relate. They get all martial arts knowledge from popular culture. In some minds a few classes can turn you into Jason Bourne. That's why I also urge people to consider how they represent their club/school. Clubs dressed in paramilitary gear who sport skull and bones logos sure look cool, but it actually could be used against a student in court. The whole tactical/operator scene is pretty big in some groups and it's not necessarily a good thing if you actually end up using your training and have to worry about court rooms. The military may have some legal considerations in combat but it's a world of difference compared to civilian life. It's better to convince a jury you're ralph macchio than try to convince them you're not David Koresh. Martial arts training will probably come out if you do kill in self defense, if a prosecutor shows video of your group talking about how deadly they are it won't be good for you.

Lastly, my list of current popular martial arts buzz words to be weary of:  extreme, tactical, concepts, situational, dynamic, combatives, tactical tomahawk, not every art that uses these terms is deserving of skepticism and i've even used some on occasion but any use of these words should at least be given a second look. A lot of this stuff and the use of "deadly" personas is a way to bring in students. If you want martial arts you want to be deadly, and it's understandable that schools want to attract students. Just know you're being sold in some cases and that's fine. Any art that teaches weapons is potentially deadly, camo and militaristic persona doesn't change that or create additional skill.  It's like racing stripes, looks cool but it don't add horsepower.


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## Elbowgrease

Great post. 
I don't even carry a knife anymore. The swiss army, but thats not exactly a weapon. It's a little mini toolbox. Even when I had a nice collection of knives happening, most of them never left the house. They always have been tools, or maybe fine instruments. Had to pull a knife twice in my life, didn't have to go any further than that. Glad of that. 
The jury hears "martial art", they think "flying ninjas". They don't usually see sit in the horse stance and practice punches for a few years.


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## tshadowchaser

Great OP.  I have carried knifes on me since I was very young but Have found out over the years that I dont want to carry anything I am really found of. 
I have also found that law enforcement people do not look kindly on some of the knifes I used to carry. So I have changed my carry preferences to things that do not look as deadly and that can be "lost" if necessary.

Some darn good information in that OP  I would hope that all of the people living in the USA that are on the Forum read it


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## Tgace

The legalities of knife carry MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## elder999

Tgace said:


> The legalities of knife carry MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


 Nice to know I'm consistent, anyway!


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## Brian R. VanCise

As Elder999 mentioned it is very important that you understand knife laws in your area and consult with a lawyer.  I cannot stress this enough.  Look up your states statues and then consult with your attorney regarding them.  Not hard to do and could just save you some serious headaches.

What I personally use every day for my EDC is what I use every day while working.  I carry a legal length benchmade griptilian.  I use it every day to open boxes, cut tape, etc.  It is a working knife that helps me a lot with basic day to day jobs.

Like Elder999 I would advise to stay away from anything that say's tactical or is geared towards military or police.  Best of all this is easy to do as there are lots of working knives out there that do not have tactical on them.

Carrying any kind of tool whether for work, personal protection, etc. has a lot of responsibility that goes along with it.  Know the laws in your area and consult with a professional so that you clearly understand them!


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## arnisador

Great post. Everyone who carries needs to know about the NYC case. 

If you carry a knife, you have a tendency to find cases when you "need" it. This is its own form of danger--you can raise the tension in a situation which can be defused, and can give yourself a false sense of confidence. Also, I hear time and again from people attacked while carrying a knife who never had time to draw it.


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## Deleted member 32980

I took a quick glance. I saw a few folding (pocket knives) a fixed clip point and a Kukri and a machete(forgot the name) I carry a macinac hunter (attached file) always. It's prolly not legal but I've never pulled it out on anyone for self defense. If only do it for multiple pusuers an they had weapons for a life or death situation.


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## elder999

Nate the foreverman said:


> I took a quick glance. I saw a few folding (pocket knives) a fixed clip point and a Kukri and a machete(forgot the name) I carry a macinac hunter (attached file) always. *It's prolly not legal but I've never pulled it out on anyone for self defense.* If only do it for multiple pusuers an they had weapons for a life or death situation.


 
Well, let's look at that: "*prolly not legal.*

I don't even know what that means....???

Seriously, even if you've never pulled it out, doesn't mean you won't, or that you can or can't, or what the circumstances might be-it doesn't even mean that you won't go to jail for it. This Thanksgiving, just this last week, I was pulled over (by an a-hole) had my car sniffed by a dog for drugs (that the a-hole made me wait 40 minutes for) and said a-hole patted me down for weapons while the dog was sniffing the car-in Californiastan, if I'd had your knife, I'd have spent Thanksgiving in the lockup, instead of at work enjoying my smoked turkey (what the a-hole smelled that made him get the drug dog in the first place. Guy's a first rate moron. 


)

It behooves you to know if it's a legal knife to _carry_, to simply have on your person. Then, of course, if you're thinking that you might use it in self defense, you should train to.....


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## jks9199

Knife laws vary greatly state by state, and are often misunderstood.  For example, a lot of people -- including some cops! -- think that any knife over 3 inches blade length is automatically a concealed weapon or otherwise illegal in Virginia.  Actually, the code puts that limit on knives carried at schools, with some exceptions for shop and cooking classes.  Otherwise, the code and court rulings pretty narrowly define a knife as regards a concealed weapon: 
...any dirk, bowie knife, switchblade knife, ballistic knife, machete, razor, slingshot, spring stick, metal knucks, or blackjack...​While there's a clause for "weapons of like kind", court ruling have held that to be pretty narrow.  Balisong/butterfly knives have been specifically excluded as "weapons of like kind" by court ruling -- so they're not a concealed weapon.  That's in Virginia...  Another state may have specifically INCLUDED them...  Then there's also a code section specifically prohibiting brandishing a machete -- or other blade longer than 12 inches.  (That one's courtesy MS-13.)  You really need to (as elder has already said) know the laws where you live and travel.  Here's an interesting site I found; on a quick scan, it seems reasonably accurate for Virginia, though I can't vouch for other states: Knife Law

But all that stuff is all well and good...  Here's the thing.  You use a knife in self defense, you need to be ready for a serious legal situation.  And if you're going to argue you didn't have intent to use it as a weapon, and it's even slightly like a tactical folder, etc., it would probably behoove you to be sure it has things like drywall residue, envelope dust, rope residue, etc. on it to show why you carry it on a daily basis.  Otherwise, it's no different than carrying a gun; you're carrying a weapon around.


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## Deleted member 32980

Lol. You must be one suspicios man if they raped you with a drug dog. And you could always hide your knife before they see it. You too funny. ^_^


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> And you could always hide your knife before they see it. You too funny. ^_^


No, no you cant.Thats by far the silliest thing Ive ever seen


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## Deleted member 32980

What do you mean? I've hidden so many things in my life it's funny.


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> What do you mean? I've hidden so many things in my life it's funny.


 If you want to risk you freedom/money over a game of hide and seek that's on you good luck.  I make my living finding things people try to hide.  Its so much easier to just figure out if the knife is legal or not and then you dont need to hide anything


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## Tez3

Nate the foreverman said:


> Lol. You must be one suspicios man if *they raped you with a drug dog.* And you could always hide your knife before they see it. You too funny. ^_^



That's an interesting way of saying a sniffer dog went through a car..................


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## ballen0351

AND PS having a knife in your hand  while trying to hide it when the Police walk up might me hazardous to your health as well


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## Deleted member 32980

I was trying to figure out why you disliked me. Now I know why "I make my living finding things people try to hide." Well, I don't do anything bad or illegal with my knives and such, I use it for a tool. I'm always in the woods or cutting wood.


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## Deleted member 32980

I totally agree. That's why you do a little training to be excessively smooth. Some might say, "look here while I do this" referring to two hands.


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> I was trying to figure out why you disliked me. Now I know why "I make my living finding things people try to hide." Well, I don't do anything bad or illegal with my knives and such, I use it for a tool. I'm always in the woods or cutting wood.


LOL I dont dislike you.  I disliked your post.  By the way having an illegal knife on you is illegal and bad so........You may want to find out.


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> I totally agree. That's why you do a little training to be excessively smooth. Some might say, "look here while I do this" referring to two hands.


Oh dear...............


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## Tez3

The 'dislike'  bit is for the post not the person, and my comment wasn't intended to be funny but a polite way of saying what you wrote is distasteful.


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## Deleted member 32980

Hen one says "disliked me" I meant the post. We are all in it together. Keep your stick on the ice. I'll talk to you all to,marrow. I have to go for the rest of the day


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hen one says "disliked me" I meant the post. We are all in it together. Keep your stick on the ice. I'll talk to you all to,marrow. I have to go for the rest of the day


Where is the bunny with the pancake we need him now


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## elder999

Nate the foreverman said:


> Hen one says "disliked me" I meant the post. We are all in it together. Keep your stick on the ice. I'll talk to you all to,marrow. I have to go for the rest of the day





 
All you had to do was ask....


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## elder999

Nate the foreverman said:


> Lol. You must be one suspicios man if they raped you with a drug dog. And you could always hide your knife before they see it. You too funny. ^_^



Not really.

He pulled me over for speeding. Came to the window and told me as much. Asked if I had any marijuana in the car, and-when I told him "no"-said he detected a strong smell.The guy smelled smoked turkey, and "that new car smell."  I even told him as much.

Of course, traveling with a couple of turkeys in the back of your car, that's a pretty suspicious thing-especially on Thanksgiving day!


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## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Not really.
> 
> He pulled me over for speeding. Came to the window and told me as much. Asked if I had any marijuana in the car, and-when I told him "no"-said he detected a strong smell.The guy smelled smoked turkey, and "that new car smell."  I even told him as much.
> 
> Of course, traveling with a couple of turkeys in the back of your car, that's a pretty suspicious thing-especially on Thanksgiving day!




Perhaps you should have killed them first?


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## Deleted member 32980

Lol. Oh I got it. Wait why does marry jane smell like turkey?


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> Wait why does marry jane smell like turkey?


They dont


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## Deleted member 32980

A joke.


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> A joke.


Its not and now you see how easily your "Ill just hide it or keep it in my pocket" plan can and will fail


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## Deleted member 32980

Grow up. I'm not a bad person so just drop it. Literally.


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> Grow up. I'm not a bad person so just drop it. Literally.


I didnt say you were  I said your plan is stupid


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## Deleted member 32980

It's always worked. Of coarse there is a small chance it would fail. That's why you have back up plans


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## ballen0351

Nate the foreverman said:


> It's always worked. Of coarse there is a small chance it would fail. That's why you have back up plans


LOL ok you still a kid ignore the advise I don't care its not my life


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## Deleted member 32980

It's ok. Don't worry. But thanks. And I'm not a kid....


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