# Never keep a weapon near your bed



## blackxpress (Oct 10, 2009)

This almost happened to me years ago.  If my wife hadn't screamed just in the nick of time she'd be dead now.

http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/police-fla-man-kills-159257.html

I'm posting this in the firearms section because, in this case, the weapon was a gun.  The same could also apply to knives, swords, etc.  If you must keep a loaded firearm in the house, be sure it's secure enough that you cannot deploy it unless you are fully awake.  In my case, the weapon was an 8" hunting knife that I used to keep between the mattress and box springs.  I thought I heard an intruder in the house.  I reached over to check on my wife and could've sworn she was still in the bed with me.  I must have been half asleep, sleepwalking or whatever.  I saw this shadowy figure coming through the bedroom door, pulled my knife and lunged out of bed.  She screamed and I broke off my attack just in time.  I still can't believe I was able to regain my faculties that quick.  She and I are both very lucky.  From that day forward I have never kept a weapon of any kind within easy reach of the bed.  I keep a loaded shotgun in the closet inside a case.  That requires me to be awake enough to walk across the room, open the closet, get the gun out of its case, jack a shell into the chamber and remove the safety.  Hopefully if I'm able to do all those things I'll be awake enough to know who I'm shooting at before I pull the trigger.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 10, 2009)

Even better advice is identifying your target before putting rounds downrange.  That's why a flashlight is vitally important.


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## zDom (Oct 10, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Even better advice is identifying your target before putting rounds downrange.  That's why a flashlight is vitally important.



Amen.

As for me, I would rather be a victim because of hesitating than endure the pain of hurting or killing a loved one.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 10, 2009)

This is why my weapon is locked in a safe with ammo in a different room.  Not very practical for defending my house....but just fine for it not being fired by the wrong person or at the wrong time.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 10, 2009)

zDom said:


> Amen.
> 
> As for me, I would rather be a victim because of hesitating than endure the pain of hurting or killing a loved one.



Exactly......more to the point, with proper previous planning, proper target identification shouldn't put one at a tactical disadvantage.

I am concerned about keeping locked and loaded firearms near the bed.  If one does choose to keep a firearm near the bed, it should be in Condition 3.......chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down (if hammer applicable) and safety on.  

A couple conscious steps in the process should be required before the gun is able to be discharged.  

And any gun intended for home defense should have a bright weapon light attached, AND an additional separate hand-held light right next to it so as not to muzzle any ambivalent targets.


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## KenpoTex (Oct 10, 2009)

MBuzzy said:


> This is why my weapon is locked in a safe with ammo in a different room.  *Pretty much worthless* for defending my house....but just fine for it not being fired by the wrong person or at the wrong time.


fixed that for you...



sgtmac_46 said:


> Exactly......more to the point, with proper previous planning, proper target identification shouldn't put one at a tactical disadvantage.
> 
> I am concerned about keeping locked and loaded firearms near the bed.  If one does choose to keep a firearm near the bed, it should be in Condition 3.......chamber empty, full magazine, hammer down (if hammer applicable) and safety on.
> 
> ...



While I don't necessarily agree that the weapon should be kept unloaded, locked up, or in condition 3, I do agree that proper target identification is an absolute must.  This is the reason why my "nightstand pistol" has a weapon light attached.


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## jamz (Oct 10, 2009)

The Four Rules:

1. The gun is ALWAYS loaded.
2. NEVER point the muzzle at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
3. Finger OFF the trigger until sights aligned and you are ready to shoot.
4. ALWAYS know what your target is, and what is behind your target.


If everyone followed Rule 4, the number of accidental/negligent shootings would be cut by at least half.  If everyone followed all the rules, there would be almost no accidental/negligent shootings, ever.

One should never ever fire at anything unless one knows exactly what it is.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 10, 2009)

I've heard of a few chilling cases where people shot their loved ones or the fireman. Yes very sad to hear such and one thinks 'it could happen to me'.

Now does that mean I will get so scared I&#8217;ll make the mistake of panicking and attacking the wrong one? I doubt it.

Does it mean I should give up all ideas of self defense in the home because a few people have made grievous errors? No and here is why:

I read of an awful lot of home invasions, robberies, burglaries gone bad, angry ex-spouses/boyfriends that kick in doors and kill the ones inside, etc&#8230;. Far more than of stories of mis-identifcations.

Like KenpoTex and sgtmac_46 are saying, make sure of your target and keep a method of identifying potential targets (flashlights or such.)

Don't be a fool and think taking up all you weapons makes you safe for either yourself or others.

Deaf


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## Ceicei (Oct 10, 2009)

jamz said:


> The Four Rules:
> 
> 1. The gun is ALWAYS loaded.
> 2. NEVER point the muzzle at anything you aren't willing to destroy.
> ...



100% in agreement.

Ceicei


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Oct 10, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> While I don't necessarily agree that the weapon should be kept unloaded, locked up, or in condition 3, I do agree that proper target identification is an absolute must. This is the reason why my "nightstand pistol" has a weapon light attached.


 
This is a great idea, and I can't believe it never occurred to me.


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## K-man (Oct 10, 2009)

My 45kg 'weapon' sleeps on the floor by the bed, knows everyone local by sight and smell so is not likely to attack the wrong target, has greal night vision equipment and also possesses a blood chilling audible alarm! As backup there is a standby unit stationed the other side of the bed next to my wife. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  We sleep like babes!


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## KenpoTex (Oct 11, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> This is a great idea, and I can't believe it never occurred to me.



they're handy little things...coolest idea since sliced bread 






got one on my rifle as well...


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## blackxpress (Oct 11, 2009)

K-man said:


> My 45kg 'weapon' sleeps on the floor by the bed, knows everyone local by sight and smell so is not likely to attack the wrong target, has greal night vision equipment and also possesses a blood chilling audible alarm! As backup there is a standby unit stationed the other side of the bed next to my wife.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have one of those "weapons" as well.  I'm not good at metric conversion (stupid American that I am).  Mine only weighs 10 lbs., more of an intruder alarm than anything else.  Definitely sufficient to wake me up and give me plenty of time to get prepared.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 11, 2009)

*I have a 40lb puppy and still growing*.  I think he will be an excellent guard dog!  Still I am not relying on him but instead see him as an augment to the security alarm system already in place as well as the tools that I have available for a moment of personal protection.  Bottom line I think everyone is in agreement in that you need to *identify your target*, be awake and in control.  Part of your training should be learning how to wake up fast, sleep with your senses still working, etc.  That way when you do see, hear,feel some thing you are immediately awake and ready to go!


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## K831 (Oct 11, 2009)

The dogs are without a doubt a tactical advantage and my 3 are "HSLD" for sure.  

My Handgun sits by the bed, round chambered, hammer "decocked". I would never pull the trigger on an unidentified target, same as I would never SWING A BAT A SILHOUETTE IN THE HALLWAY!!! Gun's give us range and so extra factors apply, but some rules apply to any weapon. Just think about what you are doing, and who you're about to take out!  

It also helps to have a frank discussion with anyone family members or friends who have keys etc to your place.... they should all know, even if you think I am out of town or something, IDENTIFY yourself when you let yourself in, day or night. 

Lastly, people have got to learn introspection, be honest with yourself... Know your temperament, are you a clear thinker when scared? Easily rattled? You should be able to answer for yourself if its safe for you to have instant access to a loaded weapon upon waking up.


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## chinto (Oct 12, 2009)

Hell I have no worries as I live alone. if I wake to some one in my home they are an intruder and burglar, or a murderer with intent to kill.


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## Grenadier (Oct 12, 2009)

chinto said:


> Hell I have no worries as I live alone. if I wake to some one in my home they are an intruder and burglar, or a murderer with intent to kill.


 
Exactly.  

There is no "one size fits all" storage procedure.  Some people will have different acceptable methods, depending on their situations.  

I'm not a heavy sleeper, and I always keep one next to my bed on the nightstand.  However, it's in the holster, and to take it out of the holster will mean that I have to use both hands, unless I actually put the holster on a surface, and overcome the holster tension and / or thumb break.  

For me to do that is going to require that I be aware.  Fortunately, since I'm more of a light sleeper, that has never been a problem.  

If I had (or will have?) kids, then I'll modify things, but until that day comes, I'll stick with my current methods.


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## lklawson (Oct 13, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> This is a great idea, and I can't believe it never occurred to me.


Considering how cheap "tactical flashlights" are these days, it's a no-brainer to have one with your home SD firearm.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 13, 2009)

chinto said:


> Hell I have no worries as I live alone. if I wake to some one in my home they are an intruder and burglar, or a murderer with intent to kill.


Besides my wife, I have an 8yo boy and a 2yo girl.  If something goes bump in the night it's probably one of them.  In general, my biggest concern is one of the kids not being fully awake and mistaking the sofa for the toilet.  I chose my neighborhood in part because it has a low crime stat (bearing in mind that crime is rising everywhere in inverse proportion to the declining economy).  But that doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to be no threat.  

Gotta have a plan.  SD weapons are great but lights, knowing what's behind where your shooting (like your kid's room, for instance), and other concerns need to be considered BEFORE HAND.  If there's one thing we know it's that humans typically make crappy "snap decisions" but if we spend even a little time before hand to walk through the variables and take the branches on the decision tree then we're capable of really good results.  Take that time and figure out what will be what before hand.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 13, 2009)

Grenadier said:


> If I had (or will have?) kids, then I'll modify things, but until that day comes, I'll stick with my current methods.


When that day comes for you, please let me recommend one of those "quick access" safes.  The kind with the hand imprint and combination buttons under the fingers can give you reasonable assurance of keeping unauthorized hands off your SD tool while giving you quick access in case of an emergency.

You're also going to start thinking of things you *NEVER *thought of before such as "how can I be sure that a round won't over penetrate and enter my child's room?"  Then you start looking at exotic ammunition and thinking about filling walls with sand or lining them with kevlar or the like.  Both ideas are expensive and/or impractical so you're going to end up concluding that you need to be double sure of what's behind your target and triple sure of shot placement.  ...and those exotic ammunitions that previously seemed too expensive to be even a remote consideration start looking a lot less expensive.  You still may not buy them but you'll look at them a lot more when you go to the gun store.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## thardey (Oct 13, 2009)

lklawson said:


> When that day comes for you, please let me recommend one of those "quick access" safes. The kind with the hand imprint and combination buttons under the fingers can give you reasonable assurance of keeping unauthorized hands off your SD tool while giving you quick access in case of an emergency.
> 
> You're also going to start thinking of things you *NEVER *thought of before such as "how can I be sure that a round won't over penetrate and enter my child's room?" Then you start looking at exotic ammunition and thinking about filling walls with sand or lining them with kevlar or the like. Both ideas are expensive and/or impractical so you're going to end up concluding that you need to be double sure of what's behind your target and triple sure of shot placement. ...and those exotic ammunitions that previously seemed too expensive to be even a remote consideration start looking a lot less expensive. You still may not buy them but you'll look at them a lot more when you go to the gun store.
> 
> ...


 

That's where I am, with a silent quick access combination safe about 5 feet from my bed, with the flashlight stored next to it on the outside. I have to be awake enough to focus on the simple combination, but I can access the gun in only a couple of seconds.

For those who are considering getting a tactical light because of this thread, I highly, highly recommend doing a few "practice sweeps" of your house in the dark with both the light and your empty, Empty, EMPTY gun. Practice 'dry-firing' while holding the light.

The reason I say this is because I was warned about "sympathetic hand" syndrome -- where you think you are triggering the light, but you pull the trigger, because that's a more "natural" movement. When you realize how fast that happens, you realize how important it is to KEEP YOUR FINGER OUT OF THE GUARD, and off the trigger until you are sure of your target, and ready to fire.

Also, I find it helps me to keep the light by my head, then there's less sympathy between hands.


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## Carol (Oct 13, 2009)

Keeping a tactical light by the bed is a very good idea, whether you have a weapon there or not. 

A couple of weeks ago, I woke up to a loud bang, that sounded kind of like a gunshot.  It was close, it was loud, and scared the heck out of me.  I couldn't precisely identify the sound because I was dead asleep when it occurred.

A minute or so later, I heard another loud bang.  It was close, it was loud, it was....definitely not a gunshot.  When the 2nd bang occurred, I lost power.   Having my Surefire nearby was a very good thing.


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## lklawson (Oct 13, 2009)

The first time I did a night time sweep of my house (bump in the night that the wife insisted I check out), the back-splash from my tac light completely destroyed my night vision and half blinded me, never mind the random shadows that the "bump" turned out to be.

I learned to keep one eye closed when triggering the "momentary" button.  If that "bump" is ever something more than just poltergeist or my house settling, I figure I will open the other eye and get busy just by reflex (it's what happened when I tried it on the range).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## thardey (Oct 14, 2009)

lklawson said:


> The first time I did a night time sweep of my house (bump in the night that the wife insisted I check out), the back-splash from my tac light completely destroyed my night vision and half blinded me, never mind the random shadows that the "bump" turned out to be.
> 
> I learned to keep one eye closed when triggering the "momentary" button. If that "bump" is ever something more than just poltergeist or my house settling, I figure I will open the other eye and get busy just by reflex (it's what happened when I tried it on the range).
> 
> ...


 
Same thing happened to me. Fortunately, it was during the exercise, so I learned an important lesson.


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## Flea (Oct 14, 2009)

blackxpress said:


> I have one of those "weapons" as well.  I'm not good at metric conversion (stupid American that I am).  Mine only weighs 10 lbs., more of an intruder alarm than anything else.  Definitely sufficient to wake me up and give me plenty of time to get prepared.



For what it's worth, it's relatively easy to train a dog to do regular security rounds at home.  Unlike ADT all they ask for is a regular supply of biscuits.  Think of it as a nightly fee rather than a monthly fee.  :supcool:

If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll tell you how to do it.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 14, 2009)

I agree that having a firearm in condition 3 is probably the best idea. You should have trained/practiced with your weapon often enough to be able to chamber a round, click off the safety and acquire your KNOWN target and fire very quickly. 
Practice, practice, and more practice. Even at home with an empty gun (clip out and chamber empty) to practice getting the weapon and chambering, cocking and (dry) firing it ... or find an equivalent airsoft (as close to your actual weapon as possible... oh yeah  they make 'em)... and practice with that... having a few dings in the door/door-frame/wall is better than having a few dings on your family member. Family members need to be "trained" that if they're aware of an intruder to call out or to use "safe-words" known by only the family to aid in identifying themselves in a dark house during an intrusion or emergency. 
A guard dog is a great "first line" of defense... it gives you a chance to identify the target without any doubts... a well trained dog that is familiar with EVERYONE that is allowed to come into or be already in the house helps prevent any mistakes... however if it's a fireman or LEO then the same dog needs to be obedient/disciplined/trained enough to be able to STOP it's attack, charge when you tell it to. But then I think most LEO's and firefighters know enough to identify themselves aloud to prevent mistaken identies. 

One wonders if the additonal use of a laser pointer attached to the weapon (for home defense) along-side the flash light (which IMO should be red or blue lense to aid in YOUR night vison) so that target acquisition is for certain and you don't go wide or though a soft area where the bullet can still travel.  ?? Thoughts?


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## KenpoTex (Oct 14, 2009)

I still don't see condition 3 as being a necessary, or even very smart, choice.  Aside from the fact that a gun in condition 3 is not ready for immediate use, the sound of a slide cycling may actually "tip your hand."  
That said, I guess it's a personal decision.  If you're the type of person who is totally "lost" when you wake up, it might make sense to put another step in between you and a fully functioning weapon. 
I know that when I am awakened by a strange (i.e. out of the ordinary) noise, I'm instantly wide-awake and on alert.  I have no need to keep my pistol un-chambered.

As far as lasers go, they're a great tool.  An instructor that I know from another forum (for those who will know what I'm talking about, he works for the Rogers School) has done extensive testing using a timer and a targeting system with very strict time/accuracy standards and has demonstrated very conclusively that a laser can drastically increase speed and accuracy in low-light situations.  My only recommendation here would be that if you're going to use a laser, use either one of the Crimson Trace units (built into the grip), or one of the light/laser combos like the TLR-2 like the one in the pic I posted earlier in this thread.  Avoid the ones like the LaserMax that put the laser in the recoil spring guide-rod.

Oh, and Caver, it's a mag not a clip (unless you're shooting a Garand)


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## Carol (Oct 14, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> One wonders if the additonal use of a laser pointer attached to the weapon (for home defense) along-side the flash light (which IMO should be red or blue lense to aid in YOUR night vison) so that target acquisition is for certain and you don't go wide or though a soft area where the bullet can still travel.  ?? Thoughts?



Nope.  Lasers do NOT mean target aquisition is for certain.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 14, 2009)

Flea said:


> For what it's worth, it's relatively easy to train a dog to do regular security rounds at home. Unlike ADT all they ask for is a regular supply of biscuits. Think of it as a nightly fee rather than a monthly fee. :supcool:
> 
> If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll tell you how to do it.


 
My Border Collie used to do that of her own accord .  

Every night, at regular intervals, she'd get off my bed (she slept at my feet), go to my sisters room and check they were okay, go to my parents room and check they were okay.  Then she went downstairs and checked the front and back doors and finally came back to me.

Marvellous dog.  I still miss her .


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## MA-Caver (Oct 14, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> My Border Collie used to do that of her own accord .
> 
> Every night, at regular intervals, she'd get off my bed (she slept at my feet), go to my sisters room and check they were okay, go to my parents room and check they were okay.  Then she went downstairs and checked the front and back doors and finally came back to me.
> 
> Marvelous dog.  I still miss her .


My family used to own a St. Bernard and she was huge... stood on her hind legs at 6'-4" (taller than me dad who stood at 6-3 and the dog with her paws on his shoulders when she stood...and weighed in at the vet at a nice 215 lbs... she would make nightly rounds and stayed near me mum at night (when my father was working 2nd shift ) until Dad came home then she would invariably end up with either my or my older brother's room, sleeping at the foot of our bed. 
One night I got up after midnight and had a sudden need for a glass of chocolate milk... I got up and quietly walked to the kitchen ... there I saw sleeping on the linoleum floor was our dog... hmm red-flags flying everywhere and I tried to wake her up to move... she just HAPPENED to sleep right in front of the fridge. After a few attempts I bent down to shake her awake and found her face inches from mine in full CUJO mode, apparently she took a whiff and realized that it was me and I got a face full of slobber in apology. 
I recall going back to bed that night (with glass in hand) realizing that if she didn't recognize my scent... I'd be a faceless wonder. Damned good dog and damn to the person who killed her.


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## K831 (Oct 14, 2009)

Not to get off the subject too much but my Akita/German Shepherd mix does the rounds too... couple times a night checks everything out. Same thing when we go camping, first thing she does is determine a perimeter (not sure how she chooses the size) but once she scouts her perimeter, a squirrel isn't even allowed in... 

The other two, eh, once in a while - protective for sure, but not as vigilant. 




MA-Caver said:


> Damned good dog and damn to the person who killed her.


 
Sorry bout your dog, you know what happend?

I always thought the best lines in the movie "Shooter" was when  Bob Lee Swagger says; 

"You don't understand how serious this is. They killed my dog." 

and

"I don't think you understand - these people killed my dog."


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## Skpotamus (Oct 17, 2009)

I talked about this subject once with a firearms instructor/LEO trainer who had a great quote about it.  "The only thing that sounds scarier than you racking your slide in the bedroom, is somebody racking theirs in your living room"

I personally would want the first sound a burglar hears to be my command for them to stop while I have them covered.  If they fail to comply, then the next sound I would want them to hear would be the last one they would.  I wouldn't want to warn them I'm there and give them time to escalate.  

as always, YMMV


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## SonnyPuzikas (Oct 19, 2009)

> Originally Posted by zDom
> Amen.
> 
> As for me, I would rather be a victim because of hesitating than endure the pain of hurting or killing a loved one.
> ...



Strongly, even violently disagree... If you rather be a victim- think for a minute... Because 99% chance is, that after the BG makes you a victim (50% of it is by your choice, btw), he WILL victimize ALL others in the house. Use your imagination HOW he (them) can do it...

ANY weapon meant to address surprise threats- that is to say you will be in reactive, not pro-active mode- has to be ready NOW. If you think that "just couple seconds" is not a big deal... It's eternity in home invasion, carjacking, or any such situation. Lots of VERY bad things can happen in "just a couple of seconds"...
On lights. While it's OK to have a weapon mounted one, the more sound approach is having a hand held, preferably with momentary switch and at least 90 lumens....And at least 40 hours or so of dedicated training- to understand AND be able to work with backlighting, reflecting, indirect lighting, etc.
Training and preparation gives one a chance. Not dialing down "the risk factor" from the tool (handgun, rifle, etc).


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## MA-Caver (Oct 19, 2009)

K831 said:


> Not to get off the subject too much but my Akita/German Shepherd mix does the rounds too... couple times a night checks everything out. Same thing when we go camping, first thing she does is determine a perimeter (not sure how she chooses the size) but once she scouts her perimeter, a squirrel isn't even allowed in...
> The other two, eh, once in a while - protective for sure, but not as vigilant.
> 
> Sorry bout your dog, you know what happened?


Not really, only that we left her outside in the back yard while the family went out to dinner for a few hours (I was about 11-12 yrs old then) and came back and she was lying dead with a shattered & bloody bamboo bean pole nearby and her nose cut up as if someone had taken the bean-pole and was smacking her about with it. Her death was caused by her jumping up against the choke-chain she had around her neck to get at the whomever was teasing, goading her and possibly asphyxiating or crushed windpipe. Who it was is still a mystery. The Why's are still a mystery as the house wasn't broken into or otherwise disturbed. 
All we knew was that a great member of the family was gone. She basically defended her den to the death. Agreed, that it was a bad judgment call on my dad's part to leave her out that way and his choice of restraint for the dog. He regrets that to this day. Says that he rather have cleaned up a pile of poop in the living room (or where-ever) by having the dog inside guarding the house than the result we had when we came home and saw her lying in the yard. 




Skpotamus said:


> I talked about this subject once with a firearms instructor/LEO trainer who had a great quote about it. "The only thing that sounds scarier than you racking your slide in the bedroom, is somebody racking theirs in your living room"
> 
> I personally would want the first sound a burglar hears to be my command for them to stop while I have them covered. If they fail to comply, then the next sound I would want them to hear would be the last one they would. I wouldn't want to warn them I'm there and give them time to escalate.
> as always, YMMV


As long as I know there is no recording devices around to document it (and why would there be) ... I wouldn't give a (*positively identified* unknown/unidentified and *uninvited*) burglar even _that_ much of a warning. If you're in my house, armed with ill intent and I don't know you and I didn't invite you in... die! I can always tell the investigating police that I did everything I could to get that dead bg out of my house and he came towards me (or a loved one) with malice and ignored all /commands/pleas to stop. 
I think the LEO's will be on my side when they write their reports. Besides it'll be my word against the guy whose brains are still being sponged up off the walls by the clean up crew. 



SonnyPuzikas said:


> Strongly, even violently disagree... If you rather be a victim- think for a minute... Because 99% chance is, that after the BG makes you a victim (50% of it is by your choice, btw), he WILL victimize ALL others in the house. Use your imagination HOW he (them) can do it...


I support the disagreement. You absolutely have no guarantee to know the intent of someone in your home that you didn't invite in. Unless you can read minds and hearts of men you just don't know what they are thinking or feeling or what they're capable of. It's better NOT to find out in many cases. 


SonnyPuzikas said:


> ANY weapon meant to address surprise threats- that is to say you will be in reactive, not pro-active mode- has to be ready NOW. If you think that "just couple seconds" is not a big deal... It's eternity in home invasion, carjacking, or any such situation. Lots of VERY bad things can happen in "just a couple of seconds"...
> On lights. While it's OK to have a weapon mounted one, the more sound approach is having a hand held, preferably with momentary switch and at least 90 lumens....And at least 40 hours or so of dedicated training- to understand AND be able to work with backlighting, reflecting, indirect lighting, etc.
> Training and preparation gives one a chance. Not dialing down "the risk factor" from the tool (handgun, rifle, etc).


 It's what I said earlier, practice, practice, practice and then practice some more... then just for the hell of it.. practice again. 
Walk around your house (with unloaded weapon) and find every place, corner, room, doorway, etc. you can use to your advantage and where you would hide if you were the burglar and know it in the dark. If you or your spouse has a proclivity to re-arrange furniture every now and again then practice knowing it all over again. 
For one thing you will have the "home field advantage" over the intruder, they'll be in your domicile for the first time (or second if they've cased it earlier and if they *did*... they definitely deserve to die). 

Maybe it all sounds paranoid... but do you want to take that chance? 
It's your home, your sanctuary your retreat against the outside world you have a right to be relaxed and comfortable and have a good night's sleep, every night you're there.


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## zDom (Oct 19, 2009)

SonnyPuzikas: please work on using the quote feature. You lkind of bundled my comment up with some others, didn't ya?

My entire post consisted of:

(responding to Originally Posted by sgtmac_46:  Even better advice is identifying your target before putting rounds downrange. That's why a flashlight is vitally important.)

*"Amen.

As for me, I would rather be a victim because of hesitating than endure the pain of hurting or killing a loved one."*


Your reponse pre-supposes you KNOW it is a bad guy.

(If I KNOW it is a bad guy, in my home, I'm shooting till he is still enough for me to call 911. No hestitation )

All I'm saying is,

I am willing to "risk" taking that extra second or two to POSITIVELY ID what MAY be an intruder before I shoot in MY home, 

("FREEZE -- who IS that?")

rather than shooting a dark figure in the kitchen or hallway that is *much more likely* to be my GF, her sister, or my children.

In my lifetime, I have run across half-sleeping family members a dozen times wandering about in the home for a restroom run or drink of water. Intruders? Zero, so far.


Yea, that extra second of MAKING SURE it _*is*_ a "bad guy" MAY result in me getting shot &#8212; and even being disabled.

But I think "probably not." A real intruder is not going to be as familar and comfortable in the environment as I am. A real intruder likely doesn't practice with his/her firearm as I do (assuming they even HAVE one!).

But weighing the risk (being overcome) vs. the reward (NOT SHOOTING LOVED ONES in my home!!) &#8212; I think *I stand by my position*.


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## Sukerkin (Oct 19, 2009)

A fair point, *Dom*.  

Mind you, I do think that we are perhaps missing a small but important point viz that you (general use of the term) are actually quite likely to be able to identify your close intimates on the slimmest of information.

I'm not putting myself forward as some amazing Master of esoteric arts when I say that I can usually identify someone by how they move or even by the sound of their footfalls.  Mind you, that is in large part because I was so short sighted as a child (six inch range of focus) and learned to interpret the world that way :O.


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## prokarateshop (Oct 19, 2009)

Ceicei said:


> 100% in agreement.
> 
> Ceicei



I think #4 is priceless, ID your target before firing.. This poor man will have to live with this for the rest of his life..


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## MA-Caver (Oct 20, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A fair point, *Dom*.
> 
> Mind you, I do think that we are perhaps missing a small but important point viz that you (general use of the term) are actually quite likely to be able to identify your close intimates on the slimmest of information.
> 
> I'm not putting myself forward as some amazing Master of esoteric arts when I say that I can usually identify someone by how they move or even by the sound of their footfalls.  Mind you, that is in large part because I was so short sighted as a child (six inch range of focus) and learned to interpret the world that way :O.


If it is a question of being able to identify someone in the dark or hiding around the corner because they know there's an intruder and that you or someone else is "hunting" them... a good lesson I learned from a LEO friend years ago, was that creating pass codes that ONLY the family knows... (Saving Private Ryan showed a nice example/variation of this... yelling FLASH - response THUNDER! anyone else answering different gonna get killed). At least with that one second to correctly identify each other will at least prevent an in home tragedy. 
Justifiable homicide is best when you *know* it's the right one you shot at.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> A fair point, *Dom*.
> 
> Mind you, I do think that we are perhaps missing a small but important point viz that you (general use of the term) are actually quite likely to be able to identify your close intimates on the slimmest of information.
> 
> I'm not putting myself forward as some amazing Master of esoteric arts when I say that I can usually identify someone by how they move or even by the sound of their footfalls.  Mind you, that is in large part because I was so short sighted as a child (six inch range of focus) and learned to interpret the world that way :O.



That's a pretty fair statement.........when one is alert, it's not asking too much to be able to distinguish a family member walking down hallway........and a troll slinking down the hallway with evil intent.


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## sgtmac_46 (Oct 20, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> If it is a question of being able to identify someone in the dark or hiding around the corner because they know there's an intruder and that you or someone else is "hunting" them... a good lesson I learned from a LEO friend years ago, was that creating pass codes that ONLY the family knows... (Saving Private Ryan showed a nice example/variation of this... yelling FLASH - response THUNDER! anyone else answering different gonna get killed). At least with that one second to correctly identify each other will at least prevent an in home tragedy.
> Justifiable homicide is best when you *know* it's the right one you shot at.



Or even if one didn't have that foresight, simply giving a verbal challenge to halt and identify yourself should be sufficient to determine friend from foe......merely presuming the ability to distinguish girlfriend's voice from Tyrone the local gang member.


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## Deaf Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Skpotamus said:


> I talked about this subject once with a firearms instructor/LEO trainer who had a great quote about it. "The only thing that sounds scarier than you racking your slide in the bedroom, is somebody racking theirs in your living room"
> 
> I personally would want the first sound a burglar hears to be my command for them to stop while I have them covered. If they fail to comply, then the next sound I would want them to hear would be the last one they would. I wouldn't want to warn them I'm there and give them time to escalate.
> 
> as always, YMMV


 
The first sound I want a home invader to hear is... "boom", and that should be about the last sound they hear.

For a burglar to enter my house while I'm there, to me they are a home invader. Yes do identify who is whom, but if you know they are in fact not supposed to be there, well do you ask them if they have a weapon first? Or do you look for the weapon after...

Don't come to Texas and break into homes. It's a dangerous occupation around here.

Our slogan, "Don't Mess With Texas" has a new meaning.

Deaf


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## chinto (Oct 30, 2009)

ok, i got an intruder lets say, do I go out and hunt him? NO! I go defensive and make sure the safety is off and then well if he/ she comes through that door.. I will shoot and not just once!  I think you have to assume that they want your life or they would have left !

that said do not try to clear rooms. that is a minimum 2 man job normally.. usually 4 to 5 men actually.


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## lklawson (Oct 30, 2009)

chinto said:


> ok, i got an intruder lets say, do I go out and hunt him? NO! I go defensive and make sure the safety is off and then well if he/ she comes through that door.. I will shoot and not just once!  I think you have to assume that they want your life or they would have left !


If you can hole up in your room then that's fine.  

If, on the other hand, you have a family, sleeping in multiple, separate rooms, then you've got to figure out some way to protect them.  And hiding out in your own room, shooting anyone who comes through the door ain't it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Guardian (Dec 2, 2009)

This is the type of thing "To each their own and what they feel comfortable with".

Me personally, an unloaded weapon in the house and out of reach is a useless weapon and you might as well sell it unless your keeping it for setimental reasons.


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## TKDHomeSchooler (Dec 2, 2009)

I also keep a flashlight by the bedside pistol safe, for 2 reasons.  1. is target identification and 2. is this thing is bright enough to disorient an actual attacker long enough for me to drill lead COM (after proper target identification).


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 6, 2009)

This scenario of urban warfare or homejacking, how likely is that?
I don't want to sound cynical, but if the odds of accidents (playing kids, mistaken identity, etc) is higher than the odds of being intentionally assaulted in your own home, then logic would dictate that it's probably better to stick with traditional weapons than with guns, no?


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## MattNinjaZX-14 (Dec 6, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> Even better advice is identifying your target before putting rounds downrange.  That's why a flashlight is vitally important.



Put the sure before the fire. SureFire.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 6, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> This scenario of urban warfare or homejacking, how likely is that?
> I don't want to sound cynical, but if the odds of accidents (playing kids, mistaken identity, etc) is higher than the odds of being intentionally assaulted in your own home, then logic would dictate that it's probably better to stick with traditional weapons than with guns, no?



Choosing a course of action based on what statistics would indicate as "logical" is fine until you end up being one of the exceptions.  In cases like this, being an anomaly can get really expensive.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 6, 2009)

MattNinjaZX-14 said:


> Put the sure before the fire. SureFire.


 
The Surefire X300 and X400 look beautiful, but they are high quality and thus expensive. Does anyone know of a cheaper alternative? I have a 1st generation rail-less Glock 19, so I would also need to buy a rail adapter kit.


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## jks9199 (Dec 6, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> The Surefire X300 and X400 look beautiful, but they are high quality and thus expensive. Does anyone know of a cheaper alternative? I have a 1st generation rail-less Glock 19, so I would also need to buy a rail adapter kit.


A Maglite and the Harries technique (or several others).  That also spares you the risk of using a gun as a flashlight... and the cost of the adapter kit.

Gun lights are great tools, for the right purposes.  But I'm not exactly convinced they're ideal for home defense; you want to be able to look at things in the dark without pointing a gun at them.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 7, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> The Surefire X300 and X400 look beautiful, but they are high quality and thus expensive. Does anyone know of a cheaper alternative? I have a 1st generation rail-less Glock 19, so I would also need to buy a rail adapter kit.



The Streamlight TLR-1 can be had for around $100.  Here's one source:
http://www.lapolicegear.com/streamlight-tlr1-weaponlight.html

Streamlight makes a good product, I use a TLR-2 (same as above but with the addition of a laser) on my Glocks both as a "nightstand gun," and at work (I think I actually posted a picture of it earlier in the thread).  However, I also have a hand-held light immediately available either for times when I want to illuminate something w/o pointing a gun at it, or for times when I can't have both hands on the gun (opening a door, etc.).  

That said, if your gun doesn't have a rail, I probably wouldn't bother.


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## lklawson (Dec 7, 2009)

MattNinjaZX-14 said:


> Put the sure before the fire. SureFire.


Let me also recommend Elektro Lumens.  Wayne's current model: http://elektrolumens.com/EDC-P7/EDC-MCE.html

Note that's 700 to 900 Lumens.  Yes, seven to nine HUNDRED Lumens from a LED.

I've purchased from him in the past.  Nice to work with.  Small business man.  Responsive to customers.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 7, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> This scenario of urban warfare or homejacking, how likely is that?
> I don't want to sound cynical, but if the odds of accidents (playing kids, mistaken identity, etc) is higher than the odds of being intentionally assaulted in your own home,


Last time I checked the statistics had it that a Home Invasion was more likely than a child having an accident with a firearm in the home.  And shooting misidentified individuals was even rarer.

So, while, statistically speaking, Home Invasions are less common that, say, Sexual Assault, misidentified targets and "child accidents" are not the big dangers they're made out to be.

As an example, here in the Dayton, Ohio area in the last year we had two (extremely sad) incidents where children inappropriately accessed family owned firearms and were killed and one incident of a misidentified target (both very high profile and reported because there hadn't been ANY of either for several prior years).  In that time we have had at least double the number of Home Invasions that made it to nightly news reports (not counting those that didn't).

Yes, it's true, no one wants to accidentally shoot their kids or their wife.  I'm glad that it's very uncommon.



> then logic would dictate that it's probably better to stick with traditional weapons than with guns, no?


Because stabbing your spouse or crushing her skull with a hardwood club labeled "Louisville Slugger" is better?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 7, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> That said, if your gun doesn't have a rail, I probably wouldn't bother.


 
How about duct tape?


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## KenpoTex (Dec 7, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> How about duct tape?



bailing wire...duct tape probably wouldn't tolerate the heat as well


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 8, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Last time I checked the statistics had it that a Home Invasion was more likely than a child having an accident with a firearm in the home.  And shooting misidentified individuals was even rarer.
> 
> So, while, statistically speaking, Home Invasions are less common that, say, Sexual Assault, misidentified targets and "child accidents" are not the big dangers they're made out to be.
> 
> ...



I live in a low crime area, and homejackings and assault are not a big risk here.
It's true that accidents can still happen with traditional weapons, but they are much less dangerous to kids than guns. Knives and staff weapons do not discharge accidentally, and if I would feel the need to use that weapon, then there is at least no risk of killing my kids who are sleeping inthe next room.

Also, with my house being a 'typical' Belgian house, there are a lot of corners, doors, staircases and no large open spaces. A knife, or a short spear (say a hanbo with a short spear tip) or even a plain hanbo would be at least as dangerous / effective as a handgun.

In my case, having a gun readily accessible near my bed would be more dangerous than NOT having that gun ready. Make no mistake, we have our own share of dangers, but in-home assault is not often one of them if you are not a rich and juicy target.


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## lklawson (Dec 8, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I live in a low crime area, and homejackings and assault are not a big risk here.


So is my home.  If I felt is was a high risk, I wouldn't live there.  A lot of us like to think of it like Insurance.  My home has a comparatively low risk of burning to the ground.  But I still have Fire Insurance.



> It's true that accidents can still happen with traditional weapons, but they are much less dangerous to kids than guns.


If that's the concern then you should know that Swimming Pools are *VASTLY* more likely to kill or seriously injure a child than firearms.  No, I'm not joking.  I can look up the stats for you if you'd like.



> Knives and staff weapons do not discharge accidentally,


Neither do firearms.  The chamber of the firearm has to be charged with a round and the trigger has to be squeezed.  None of this happens due to an accident.

Some feel that it is a comparatively easy task for even a child to squeeze the trigger on a loaded firearm and this represents a danger.  To be fair, I agree.  In fact, most firearms owners (at least in the U.S.) agree.  To address this issue, we take any number of a variety of precautions to prevent this.  Some use an autoloader and set the safety or do not have a round in the chamber, believing that it takes more strength than a child has to "rack the slide" and charge the chamber with a live round (this is typically true).  Some go as far as to eject the magazine from the pistol in order to make it more difficult for a child.  There are any number of after market devices which make it difficult for a child to use the firearm ranging from "trigger locks" (which I think are stupid) to a sort of giant, extra strong, "rubber band" which clamps the hammer in place.  Probably the most popular method is to deny access to unauthorized persons (such as children) by placing the home defense firearms in a bed side Safe.  Most of these Safes have a "finger grove" or "quick button" set that will let the user open it by "typing" a proper combination on a series of four or five buttons on the face or side of the Safe.  The combination is shared with authorized individuals but not children, etc.



> and if I would feel the need to use that weapon, then there is at least no risk of killing my kids who are sleeping in the next room.


Over penetration through walls is a well known danger.  I agree.  It is one that every person who considers a firearm for home defense should give serious thought to.



> Also, with my house being a 'typical' Belgian house, there are a lot of corners, doors, staircases and no large open spaces. A knife, or a short spear (say a hanbo with a short spear tip) or even a plain hanbo would be at least as dangerous / effective as a handgun.


I agree that at grappling range, a big ol' knife is at least as apt to cause serious, incapacitating, and potentially mortal wounds.  Which is fine when the bad guy is within easy reach and didn't bring a gun himself.

It's a cardinal rule (and a hackneyed old saw), "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight."



> In my case, having a gun readily accessible near my bed would be more dangerous than NOT having that gun ready.


If you do not take the proper steps in preparation, think ahead, and use common sense, then I agree that there are issues that could jump up and bite you in the butt.  A firearm is still the most effective and efficient tool for personal self defense every created by man, even sans training.  However, to optimize its use and minimize potential shortfalls and corollary dangers I *WHOLLY *recommend training and forethought before acquiring one, to say nothing of actually having to use it for self defense.

Would you just hand a Katana or a Bisento to someone and tell them, "here, this is for self defense."???

Firearms are both easier to learn and operate and more effective over a wider range but the principle is the same.  Get training.



> Make no mistake, we have our own share of dangers, but in-home assault is not often one of them if you are not a rich and juicy target.


The U.S. has several subcultures (both discrete and mixing together with each other) which see anyone who has something of value as "rich" or at least rich enough to steal from.  Drug addicts seem to be responsible for a disproportionate number of Home Invasions, but they are hardly the sole perpetrators by any stretch.  Maybe Belgium has a less violent culture or maybe you just haven't caught up yet.  Whatever the case firearms are "Insurance."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 8, 2009)

We generally do not have a violent culture. And for that I am grateful. 

More importantly: we do not have a gun culture either. I am not going to argue for or against it, as that is not the purpose of this thread. It is illegal for people in Belgium (as in many other European countries) to store guns in a 'ready to go' conditions. All firearms have to be locked in a gun safe, with the ammo in a separate lockbox. All firearms also require a permit, and there are a ton of other restrictions as well.

Otoh, other weapons (with a handful highly specific exceptions) are just fine to have around. Having a bladed weapon within reach of the bed would be ok. Having a gun ready to go near the bed would be a felony, and cause all sorts of trouble if the cops ever found out.


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## theletch1 (Dec 8, 2009)

Guns, knives, clubs... fists.  ANY weapon can be dangerous given the wrong (or right) circumstances.  Years ago I was deep into some serious PTSD issues and was having a recurring nightmare night after night.  On several occassions my (now ex) wife was forced to make a hasty retreat from the bedroom while yelling my name in an attempt to wake me.  I, on those occassions, mistook her as a threat while semi-asleep.  My weapons of choice were my hands/fists.  Eventually, she wound up sleeping on the couch if she deemed my state of mind off just a bit at bedtime.  My point?  Restricting which weapons you allow yourself to have handy is forgetting the most basic of weapons, one that each of us as martial artists train the hardest... our hands.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 19, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> This scenario of urban warfare or homejacking, how likely is that?
> I don't want to sound cynical, but if the odds of accidents (playing kids, mistaken identity, etc) is higher than the odds of being intentionally assaulted in your own home, then logic would dictate that it's probably better to stick with traditional weapons than with guns, no?



In the US approximately 100 children are killed every year in gun accidents.......1500 are killed every year in backyard swimming pools........so the risk of gun accidents is vastly inflated.

The risk of violent home invasion nationwide is far greater, though it is location specific.......however, fate favors the prepared.


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## seasoned (Dec 19, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> A Maglite and the Harries technique (or several others). That also spares you the risk of using a gun as a flashlight... and the cost of the adapter kit.
> 
> Gun lights are great tools, for the right purposes. But I'm not exactly convinced they're ideal for home defense; you want to be able to look at things in the dark without pointing a gun at them.


Plus a two way street, eliminating a target also affords the target something to shoot at. I was taught, gun in one hand and light in the other and away from the body, as another alternative.


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## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Plus a two way street, eliminating a target also affords the target something to shoot at. I was taught, gun in one hand and light in the other and away from the body, as another alternative.


I've never liked that one.  If I'm carrying a light in a shooting situation, by the time you aim at my light, I'm pulling the trigger myself.  And the muzzle flash will top the light...  I'd rather have the support hand able to help support the gun rather than off to the side somewhere as a general rule.

It's got a place, and it's worth knowing and practicing with occasionally -- but if I'm using the flashlight, I prefer the the Harries.


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## seasoned (Dec 19, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> I've never liked that one. If I'm carrying a light in a shooting situation, by the time you aim at my light, I'm pulling the trigger myself. And the muzzle flash will top the light... I'd rather have the support hand able to help support the gun rather than off to the side somewhere as a general rule.
> 
> It's got a place, and it's worth knowing and practicing with occasionally -- but if I'm using the flashlight, I prefer the the Harries.


Thanks for the feed back. It was presented at a night shoot I was at. We covered different techniques used by other departments.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Dec 21, 2009)

Ok, gentlemen, I've taken on board all of your opinions, and I've reviewed the various flashlight techniques at http://www.surefire.com/articles-handheld_techniques, and I've come to the conclusion that a flashlight mounted directly onto my gun is the best option for me (thanks to Tex for the Streamlight suggestion). It is now on my Christmas wish list and I suspect my sister will get it for me, because I told her this significantly reduces her chances of being accidentally shot in the middle of the night. I have also found a number of sources for an under barrel picatinny rail mount, at about $65.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> Ok, gentlemen, I've taken on board all of your opinions, and I've reviewed the various flashlight techniques at http://www.surefire.com/articles-handheld_techniques, and I've come to the conclusion that a flashlight mounted directly onto my gun is the best option for me (thanks to Tex for the Streamlight suggestion). It is now on my Christmas wish list and I suspect my sister will get it for me, because I told her this significantly reduces her chances of being accidentally shot in the middle of the night. I have also found a number of sources for an under barrel picatinny rail mount, at about $65.



Sounds like you're on the right track.

I would still recommend a separate small hand held light, preferably on a lanyard, as there are times you really don't want to be pointing the firearm just to light something up.


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 21, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Plus a two way street, eliminating a target also affords the target something to shoot at. I was taught, gun in one hand and light in the other and away from the body, as another alternative.



It has it's place, for example a high/low peek around a corner during a building search.


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