# im new to karate..



## hand2handCombat (Aug 28, 2002)

i heard lots of bash about karate, but im not gonna listen. i hear theres some cheap cheezy karate out there that doesnt teach anything. but i hear there are others that are pure karate, that will make u fast and have practical move. can someone please post some of the real styles of karate. please thanks


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## tmanifold (Aug 28, 2002)

It is less about styles then about schools and instructors. Just research the school first. Does it water down the training to make it easier for women, children (not that women can't do real Karate but a lot of schools will water down the classes to make it "more accessable to both sexes"), do they guarntee a black belt in one or 2 years, do they teach overly complex self defence routines. 
Also make sure the schools aims are the same as your own. Whether sport, self defence, kata or as a way of life, karate has many different aims. Make sure the instructors aim is the same as yours. Also make sure they teach a style. I am very weary or people who say. 
"We teach karate"
"What kind of Karate?"
"We just teach Karate"

Tony

ps. If you see a crane kick, run!:rofl:


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## Kenpo Wolf (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *Also make sure they teach a style. I am very weary or people who say.
> "We teach karate"
> ...



I very much agree with this comment. If they can't specify what style they teach, I would not waste any more of my time and walk out the door. Any real martial artist, no flames please , would not only know what style they practice but they would also be able to give you a brief history is so asked


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## Chiduce (Aug 29, 2002)

With karate, look for history and lineage. Most karate dojo  sensei will emphasize their arts lineage and give you a background history of their art.  Their are exceptions though, as the newer karate styles, such as American Freestyle, etc may give you a much more brief historical analogy. In the traditional martial arts; history means everthing. To learn the wisdom of the ancients, and extract this wisdom for your martial development, is to practice true karate-do.
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## MartialArtist (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *It is less about styles then about schools and instructors. Just research the school first. Does it water down the training to make it easier for women, children (not that women can't do real Karate but a lot of schools will water down the classes to make it "more accessable to both sexes"), do they guarntee a black belt in one or 2 years, do they teach overly complex self defence routines.
> Also make sure the schools aims are the same as your own. Whether sport, self defence, kata or as a way of life, karate has many different aims. Make sure the instructors aim is the same as yours. Also make sure they teach a style. I am very weary or people who say.
> ...


Exactly.  There is nobody who is a master of karate claiming he's a master of karate, rather a master of x karate.

If they say they just teach karate, it is very general and you probably won't get anything out of it as they watered down everything to call it generic karate.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> * Also make sure they teach a style. I am very weary or people who say.
> "We teach karate"
> ...




Once my teacher was asked what kind of karate he taught and his reply was: "Okinawan karate".
Again the person asked "what kind" and his reply was: "All karate is Okinawan karate, all karate is the same"

At first glance most people might say yeah right.............however look deeper at what he is saying.
Karate is for self-defense, you can only punch, kick ,and grab in so many ways......

I am not weary of people that say the above.
I am weary of people that make up phony backgrounds and lineage to impress people though.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> Exactly.  There is nobody who is a master of karate claiming he's a master of karate, rather a master of x karate.
> *



Really?

My teacher says he does "just karate"......

He also has lineage going way back to the 15th Century..........


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *With karate, look for history and lineage. Most karate dojo  sensei will emphasize their arts lineage and give you a background history of their art.  ..................In the traditional martial arts; history means everthing.*



I disagree. Actually I think most people rely too much on lineage and who studied from who...................maybe their teacher was great but what can they do?




> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * To learn the wisdom of the ancients, and extract this wisdom for your martial development, is to practice true karate-do.
> Sincerely, In Humility;
> Chiduce! *




Again, I disagree. I have seen too many folks and numerous websites lately that have fudged their lineage and that claim lineage to some master of long ago and are basically teaching the "chop-socky two step"
I constantly find folks that claim my teacher as theirs when in fact they went to 1 or 2 seminars.........and that's it.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> * If they can't specify what style they teach, I would not waste any more of my time and walk out the door. *



I agree with this comment. If they "can't" that might be because they aren't doing the real deal........and you might want to leave.




> _Originally posted by Kenpo Wolf _
> 
> *Any real martial artist, no flames please , would not only know what style they practice but they would also be able to give you a brief history is so asked *




True but it is of little importance. 

One thing I might emphasize here is "name dropping".
In Japan lineage is extremely important almost to the point of snobbery.............no it is to the point of snobbery.

I had a Japanese karateka ask me who my teacher was and I told him. He replied he had never heard of him. (see bottom)
He said if he isn't a member of XXX association then any dan rank you get from him isn't worth the paper it is written on. 
Being the always polite and humble bastard that I am (sic) I asked if he would care to make his point a little more clear to me (i.e. get it on).................Long story short....... he got schooled in how to "suck floor"........all his lineage didn't do him any good.
He and I actually became good friends afterwards. 

(Most people outside of Okinawan have ever heard of my teacher,none in Japan..... at least not living,  and there are only a few people alive in Okinawa that knew his teachers. So just because you don't know who someone is or studied from doesn't mean much.)



I am wondering if my signature should read:


"*Lineage* only covers two inches of your ***. The rest is up to you."


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## fissure (Aug 31, 2002)

> He said if he isn't a member of XXX association then any dan rank you get from him isn't worth the paper it is written on


Let me guess - where the first and last letters of the XXX org., J and A?


> I constantly find folks that claim my teacher as theirs when in fact they went to 1 or 2 seminars.........and that's it.


 This happens *alot*,many times a so called student of Master XYZ, was actually just a white belt at the back of a seminar for two hours!


> With karate, look for history and lineage


Thats one way to go.Personally I would look for competent instruction from the guy running the school.


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## RyuShiKan (Aug 31, 2002)

Actually it was JXF


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## D.Cobb (Sep 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _*
> (Most people outside of Okinawan have ever heard of my teacher,none in Japan..... at least not living,  and there are only a few people alive in Okinawa that knew his teachers. So just because you don't know who someone is or studied from doesn't mean much.)*



I'm assuming that should read,"have never heard of my teacher", and I'm astounded to say the least. I thought Oyata Senseii would have been as well known as any of the great masters. I for one have known of him for quite some time. Albeit vaguely. I must admit that I know more of him since I started doing Pressure Point stuff, and I've probably learnt most of what I know from you, since you joined martial talk.

--Dave

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (Sep 13, 2002)

Lineage means something only to people who put stock in lineage.  I have been with my teacher for a long time, and if someone says they trained with him I put some stock in that, but I have found plenty of folks who have trained with my teacher that would get the snot stomped out of them regardless of their "lineage."

Unless your teacher and his teacher and his teacher are there fighting for you, lineage means precisely d**k.  Sorry to be so blunt, but there it is.

Sure, lineage appears to ensure that the transmission of information is unbroken from the super high godly mucky-muck that started whatever brand X martial art you study, but if the person that taught it to you didn't "get it" himself, and taught it to you half-a$$ed, then I suppose all the history and lineage in the world boils down to precious little...

I agree with what was said earlier by tmanifold and others - if the teacher can't walk the walk, who cares if he can talk the talk...  I can read about history in a book.  If I am with a teacher to train, he/she better be able to pass on the skills required.

I studied with RyuShiKan for a very short period of time in Japan.  Whether he was a direct student of Taika Oyata or not, he was able to do what he claimed he could do (over and over again, I might add, not just once or twice), and that cinched it for me.  I have a dear friend that is a student of Sensei Sherman Harrill in Iowa, and whether he was student of Sensei H or not means little (I have felt "Uncle" Sherm's skills first hand, though I have never seen him teach)...  Mr. Kerker is simply frightening to behold, and that is what makes me want to train with him (and to stay in his good graces...  ).

Lineage is crap.  It _is_ important, don't get me wrong (before everyone starts trying to imply that I think folks like Temple Kung Fu and Oom Yung Doe are legitimate, or that I am a MMA sympathizer - I'm not; traditionalist to the bone, as long as tradition serves a practical purpose), but again the lineage is not going to be doing the fighting for you.

Just my 2 cents.

Gambarimasu.

:asian:  :samurai:  :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Maybe I over exaggerated a bit. There are a few people in Okinawa that know my teacher however most of them are old and getting fewer and fewer ever year. Mr. Odo, Mr. Nagamine, Mr. Matayoshi etc.for examle. 
He does go back every 2 years for a visit to see his sister. This last trip 2002 he met Hokama Tesuhiro (Okinawan Karate museum guy). Hokama got a brief demo and seemed pretty impressed so he invited Mr. Oyata back to give seminars. Don't know if he will go or not.


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## RyuShiKan (Sep 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> I studied with RyuShiKan for a very short period of time in Japan.  Whether he was a direct student of Taika Oyata or not, he was able to do what he claimed he could do (over and over again, I might add, not just once or twice), and that cinched it for me.  I have a dear friend that is a student of Sensei Sherman Harrill in Iowa, and whether he was student of Sensei H or not means little (I have felt "Uncle" Sherm's skills first hand, though I have never seen him teach)...  Mr. Kerker is simply frightening to behold, and that is what makes me want to train with him (and to stay in his good graces...  ).
> B]*


*


Yiliquan1 is 100% correct. It is NEVER the lineage but the person doing it. 
To give you an example.
Yiliquan1 and I trained together very briefly in Japan. Sad to say it was too short. Yiliquan1 is an exceptional martial artist. 
Yiliquan1 asked to learn Naihanchi Shodan so I taught him. To my amazement he learned the movements for the basic version of Naihanchi in about an hour. Not an easy task since I have spent weeks teaching people that kata before they "get it" and he basically learned all the movements in less than 60 mintues. He even managed to pick up a few of the techniques as well.
Since Yiliquan1 had the right mind set he learned it extremely fast........not only fast but well too. 
You MUST have the correct mind to study an art seriously. If you are serious then your art will also be serious. Honestly I don't think most people train with a serious mind. Most people go into a dojo and consider themselves a "customer".............almost like they were at a restaurant. They expect service and and quick results as if they were ordering a big mac.
The art will not come to you, you have to go to it and you will get out of it what you put into it.........that is the only way. 
Which is precisely what lineage is of little value.




Regards, 

Robert Rousselot

"Tell me, Brother Baldrick, what exactly did God do to the Sodomites?" 
"I dunno, but I can't imagine it was worse than what they used to do to each other." 
- E.Blackadder & Baldrick, "Blackadder's Christmas Carol"*


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