# Best entry to a takedown



## JDenz (May 7, 2003)

What do you guys think.  What do you guys do to enter in on a shot in no-gi or wrestling?  How do you change your game according to what you are doing?


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## jlhenry (May 8, 2003)

I have always been a big fan of getting a tie up head snapping them to get a foot forward then ankle picking. Other than that I like to circle and push their head to the side with my back arm(so I can guard my lead leg). Eventually they get sick of it and try to knock the hand away leaving that leg open for a quick single leg. These are prob. both things you already know but they work for me and if it isn't broke I'm not gonna fix it.


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## Jay Bell (May 8, 2003)

Walk.


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## JDenz (May 8, 2003)

I always try bumps to get the arm out of the way or use tie ups to get past the arms (budles, snaps, Drags, passbys)


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## J-kid (May 9, 2003)

Depends what the other person is doing and what you feel is the best move.


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## James Kovacich (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *What do you guys think.  What do you guys do to enter in on a shot in no-gi or wrestling?  How do you change your game according to what you are doing? *



If you're asking about creating an opening to shoot in, then no gi = no handles. All of my training revolves around controlling my opponent and I lean towards "powering through" him as well. 

If he's looking for me to shoot and no striking is involved and we are close enough, I will try to take control of his wrists. If he's thinking about his wrists or trying to free his wrists then I can step in with  my right leg and drop my left knee low to the ground (I lead a lot with my right) and go for whichever leg is available or both.

When you are "controlling" or "distracting" you're opponent, his feet as well as yours can be almost anywhere, so its not set in stone. Its just a feeling from a lot of free style randori. 

I like to control the neck as well.

If we are at a bit of a distance, it depends if he's aware that I'm going to shoot or not. I have Gung-Fu hands so I like to slip my opponents arms (like a boxers slip) probably using my left hand pushing his right arm upwards while my right arm raps around his body as low as possible. 

If my right arm gets anywhere near his hips, I should be able to get my left arm around his right leg and take him off of his feet, lifting him high with power to negate the resistance. And it does not let him defend with a sprawl like in a regular shoot defense.. :asian:


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## JDenz (May 9, 2003)

How does the shot you described negate the sprawl.  What it sounds like you are saying is you are using a pee wee arm bump to a single with your head on the outside.


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## James Kovacich (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *How does the shot you described negate the sprawl.  What it sounds like you are saying is you are using a pee wee arm bump to a single with your head on the outside. *



I don't know the wrestling terminology but it'll be to late to sprawl. His energy will going upward. Yes the head is on the outside and for something like that I would put the emphasis on the upward motion. Higher is better. 

The higher he goes, the harder for him defend or fall into a desirable position and the harder he will fall. If you take him straight down he's more likely to "land well", I just like to do things that fit me.

But you could be in trouble trying to power through a bigger opponent.

I'm not a master grappler but I have few techniques.


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## JDenz (May 9, 2003)

It isn't to late to sprawl there.  Not only that but if you are pushing the arm out of the way with across his body it seems like you would be open to a pull by or a shuck, or a host of other things.  Not that it is a bad set up or anything just wondering.  Also about sprawling I don't see how it would be hard to sprawl on that entry I mean after you have the leg up and are driving in but a guy should be sprawling before you even reach his leg unless your set up is good.


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## James Kovacich (May 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *It isn't to late to sprawl there.  Not only that but if you are pushing the arm out of the way with across his body it seems like you would be open to a pull by or a shuck, or a host of other things.  Not that it is a bad set up or anything just wondering.  Also about sprawling I don't see how it would be hard to sprawl on that entry I mean after you have the leg up and are driving in but a guy should be sprawling before you even reach his leg unless your set up is good. *



Yes you're right, it could arguably never be to late to sprawl. But I would be pushing his right arm "upward" (not to the side, upward gives more of an edge than just going straightdown) and attempting to drive him "upward" off of his feet before driving down. Off his feet, it limits the defense and limits the possibilities of his falling positions. If I was being lifted off of my feet, I would be forced to try to fall in my guard. that would be a natural response for me.

Of course you could be pulled. Thats grappling. Grappling is in close and everthing has a counter and theres always going to be better way. 

What I describe is how I flow and  what will transition well with my standup. Actually I like to practice in the clinch so that I can work into "whatever" direction a fight takes me.

Not sure what schuck is?

I'm taking some new pictures with my students so that I can display some better techiniques to represent how we train on my site. It takes a little time though becuase you go through a lot of film trying to catch the right positions instead of just posing like I have there now. You'll get a better idea from some pics.

I've trained my pure matwork but now I always think both standup and ground. I can't help it I'm cursed.


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## JDenz (May 9, 2003)

I have wrestled most of my life and the rest of the time I just wasted.  I have been doing submisison grappling for a while as well. I wrestled Pee-Wee, highschool, collage and now I coach the kids.   I understand what you are saying I think.   I get what you are saying now alot of the guys I grapple with pull guard when they are in trouble to.  I kida don't like that for two reasons.   One if I am in a sport match I am going to lose points in most organizations.   Not a big deal if your guard is good unless you get someone like me that scores and stalls.  @ I wouldn't want to be in the street on bottom.  If someone got in I would sprall and strike.   Although for this thread I was strikley speaking no striking.


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## JDenz (May 9, 2003)

A shuck is pretty much a duck under without a level change.  Anytime that you pass a guy by his arm on the mat or standing.  I am sure you have seen it and probley call it something else.  Rereading my posts I sound like a Dick but I don't mean it like that.  I am just trying to get open discussion going.  I was trying to see if anyone had idea's for my game.  Everyone I roll with now don't engage on the feet they run away lol.  I was just trying to come up with a few new setups.


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## James Kovacich (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *A shuck is pretty much a duck under without a level change.  Anytime that you pass a guy by his arm on the mat or standing.  I am sure you have seen it and probley call it something else.  Rereading my posts I sound like a Dick but I don't mean it like that.  I am just trying to get open discussion going.  I was trying to see if anyone had idea's for my game.  Everyone I roll with now don't engage on the feet they run away lol.  I was just trying to come up with a few new setups. *



 A schuck sounds like something I would use, maybe in my own way. 

I probably would wrap my legs when my feet are off of the ground and then try to fall into a better position, maybe roll onto my side and push out or just snake into a better position.

Also I don't hear a dick, I hear someone than knows his wrestling. Actually I prefer to see the holes in my technique, thats how you fix them. 

Hope this thread keeps going, we need more technique discusion and less caca. :asian:


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## JDenz (May 10, 2003)

well I see what you are saying turing it into a guard pull/armlock attempt.  that is the start of a shuck, the finish part you are at the side or behind the guy.  The problem with having good takedowns and throws is it is real easy to nutralize.


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## James Kovacich (May 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *well I see what you are saying turing it into a guard pull/armlock attempt.  that is the start of a shuck, the finish part you are at the side or behind the guy.  The problem with having good takedowns and throws is it is real easy to nutralize. *



Thats it right there. I'm good at nuetralizing my opponents. I quit BJJ about a year ago when I realized that there wasn't anything that they could throw at me that I couldn't stop and impose my will.

Thats why I'm taking my art  deeper now. For instance, if someone attempts a shoot and I successfully stop the shoot. What position or range are we in? "My range", the clinch, which I like to work from! :asian:


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## JDenz (May 11, 2003)

Well I think I ca take down alot of people from a clinch and I have good knees from the clinch as well.  I am just saying having good takedowns in grappling is a little over rated.


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## James Kovacich (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Well I think I ca take down alot of people from a clinch and I have good knees from the clinch as well.  I am just saying having good takedowns in grappling is a little over rated. *



There is no single technique or single range that is superior. what is great for me is possibly what your best at taking advantage of.

Also, the brazilians can't trashed because they "supposedly" have weak takedowns. But their response is, "no problem, we're going to end up on the ground anyway and thats my world."

Just like theres always a counter to every technique, theres always another view to fighting altogether. 

I only have a few takedowns that I really like. I mostly concentrate on the techniques that evolve around the takedown.:asian:


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## JDenz (May 12, 2003)

Well I wrestled all my life and without my glasses on I can barley see.  So fighting in close works the best for me.   There are not to many fighters or martial artests as good at takedowns as me or controlling the clinch.  (In my experaince guys good at fighting in close are suckers for takedowns, In streetfights mostly they are looking to do alot of damage quick and don't keep a solid base.)  And if they are better wrestlers I think that I have better submissions and striking then a pure wrestler at that level.   But I am mostly training for sport grappling contests, and wrestling.


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## James Kovacich (May 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Well I wrestled all my life and without my glasses on I can barley see.  So fighting in close works the best for me.   There are not to many fighters or martial artests as good at takedowns as me or controlling the clinch.  (In my experaince guys good at fighting in close are suckers for takedowns, In streetfights mostly they are looking to do alot of damage quick and don't keep a solid base.)  And if they are better wrestlers I think that I have better submissions and striking then a pure wrestler at that level.   But I am mostly training for sport grappling contests, and wrestling. *



I don't know what I would classify myself in there.

But when I mentioned I quit BJJ because there was not anything that they could throw at me that I couldn't stop, part of the reason was because I am a standup fighter and they did not really understand the standup game.

It definately wasn't because I was that great in grappling. I am a good grappler. I'mm good enough to stop most attacks, but it depends on the rules. 

I do want to go deeper into submission training and I'm hoping my students understand the importance of grappling as I do so that this philoshiphy of mine will not die out.


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## J-kid (May 12, 2003)

Well I like to use a mix of diffrent takedowns depending on what my opponent leaves open, if he is standing real tall and straight and is taller then me then i will usally look as if i am going for a upper body throw.  Use a distraction (like clap infront of there face) then shoot and it works really well or i get a bear hug and hook the leg.

If the person likes to fight bent over i will usally go for a throw being from Wrestling,Judo, or Bjj.  I like fighting on the ground alot but my stand-up is pritty good, my stance is a mix between a wrestler stance/boxing stance/escrima stance.    It seems to work pritty good over all.

I find my sprawl/anti take down is real strong,  I find when i use Judo/BJJ/Wrestling together it makes my grappling great.  At my last Judo Tournement I armbared one guy and almost another, and then people avoided going to the ground with me at all costs it was fun tournment.  It was the North West High School Championship.  I only placed 3rd, the guy who got 1st beat me in over time with a small point and then I had to go threw 2 other guys to fight the guy who was in second and i lost to him at the end with a full throw.  I will rematch this guy from Finland next tournment i was kind of tired by the time i got to him after 6-7 matchs.  I also took on what seemed to be 2 wrestlers and won they shot in so many times but i was able to sprawl and use other anti take downs on them and threw them both infact i shot in on them and was able to take him down with a single leg.  

Any how i havent been training as hard as before but now i am gonna kick it up and i will make sure to go every day.  Since i train at to diffrent gyms i will have to work hard.  I have still learning alot of wrestling from the trainers and from other friends i know who are really great wrestlers.   I figure if i pick up the pace real hard i will be ready for nationals in new mexico and florida.  I also plan on starting MT kickboxing back up again, but for now i have my hads full with school and the grappling.  My esrima is slowly getting better all the time so thats also a plus.  I am hoping by next year i will have competed in a full contact mixed martial art tournment.  O yeah forgot to mention i am gonna be going into some submission tournements soon.  That should be fun alot of fun.

Anyone else doing any grappling tournments?
If so where and when?


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## MartialArtist (May 17, 2003)

I'm an outside speed-type wrestler.  I like to set up my shots by circling a bit in either direction (depending on what foot I want planted) and I will either tap and go or lower my elevation and fake him and just plain juke him.  The circling is very important so the opponent can't sugar foot and attacking at a good angle (and a bad angle for the opponent to defend against  ) is what I do.  Depending on the opponent, I might just be a pressure-type wrestler with arm drags, etc.  A lot of the times, I could just overpower the guy.  Get inside position, push the opponent forward in a quick, snapping motion and pull him back with one arm pulling his head down then shoot.  Works if you're much faster and stronger than the guy.


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## James Kovacich (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *I'm an outside speed-type wrestler.  I like to set up my shots by circling a bit in either direction (depending on what foot I want planted) and I will either tap and go or lower my elevation and fake him and just plain juke him.  The circling is very important so the opponent can't sugar foot and attacking at a good angle (and a bad angle for the opponent to defend against  ) is what I do.  Depending on the opponent, I might just be a pressure-type wrestler with arm drags, etc.  A lot of the times, I could just overpower the guy.  Get inside position, push the opponent forward in a quick, snapping motion and pull him back with one arm pulling his head down then shoot.  Works if you're much faster and stronger than the guy. *



If you are good just out of my reach, as a grappler I would probably be forced to shoot in or be on the defensive (which is why I took BJJ).

You're pushing and pulling sounds like Judo. I think all grappling is related so to speak.

One of my strategies to to use technique and ranges that I think are foreign to my opponent. So when you're in your circling either direction motion I "might" adopt some boxing footwork and just as a boxer steps "away and out of range from the opponents strikes (EXAMPLE: both left lead, A left jabs, B would step to the right, farther away for the opponent to strike and he needs to adjust "to you"), so you would need to circle towards me, possibly giving me the opening I'm looking for or use it to your advantage and maybe catch me at an agle that you see as advantageous to you.:asian:


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## JDenz (May 17, 2003)

The problem with that is grapplers can just back up taking away your angle.  It isn't like wrestling where you always have to be moving forward and attacking.


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## James Kovacich (May 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *The problem with that is grapplers can just back up taking away your angle.  It isn't like wrestling where you always have to be moving forward and attacking. *



Yea, I don't think enough as a grappler. I'm more of react to what to what I see, so it I could be set up easily. Thats why I stress learning to work from your back. I can't be the best at a submission from my back, I accept that. But I need to not get beat and move into something better.

: :asian:


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## MartialArtist (May 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *If you are good just out of my reach, as a grappler I would probably be forced to shoot in or be on the defensive (which is why I took BJJ).
> 
> You're pushing and pulling sounds like Judo. I think all grappling is related so to speak.
> ...


Well, in my experience in wrestling, it was what I was the best at.  Juking people, schooling them with speed, etc.

In a more, combat related fight, I will not go around like that.  When I'm tapping and go, if the person reacts fast enough, I can get a knee to my face or a cross or an uppercut.  That's why I don't shoot long-range unless I knew I was going to finish it.  I'm more of a striker, especially at longer-ranges, but I find it no problem to tranisition from striking to locking, throwing, or grappling.  I'm not the best with my elbows, so I stay out of that range.

Of course, this is all on paper, and one cannot say what he'll do just by typing it.  It should all be instinctive.

Arm pulling, dragging, etc. is found in all grappling arts, no doubt about it.  Joint manipulation, locks, submissions, dragging, grappling.  Found in every combat oriented style, whether it places emphasis on grappling OR striking.


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## JDenz (May 19, 2003)

I think that the best leg dive is the john smith single for MMA and Grappling.  (leg dive= shooting from outside clinch)


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## James Kovacich (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *I think that the best leg dive is the john smith single for MMA and Grappling.  (leg dive= shooting from outside clinch) *



Outside clinch, you mean close enough to touch but not fuuly grab?

If so, I'm comfortable there, I like to control or manipulate the movement of their hands. Make them work to get their hands on me.:asian:


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## James Kovacich (May 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Well, in my experience in wrestling, it was what I was the best at.  Juking people, schooling them with speed, etc.
> 
> In a more, combat related fight, I will not go around like that.  When I'm tapping and go, if the person reacts fast enough, I can get a knee to my face or a cross or an uppercut.  That's why I don't shoot long-range unless I knew I was going to finish it.  I'm more of a striker, especially at longer-ranges, but I find it no problem to tranisition from striking to locking, throwing, or grappling.  I'm not the best with my elbows, so I stay out of that range.
> ...



Getting knee'd or choked is the trade off for the shoot. If your aware you could learn to instinctively block the knee. You stop it in motion and he's yours.:asian:


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## JDenz (May 20, 2003)

I am talking outside hand range.  it is a low leg dive.  To low to really take a knee.  Maybe a low shin but it would be hard to get hit.  Probley take a shot or two on the finish but no one is going to be able to put serious power on it.  Sakuaraba does a varation of it.


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## bob919 (May 30, 2003)

a 1-2 to the face will set anything up nicely


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