# A breakdown of the Frank Dux claims



## Charlemagne (Jan 29, 2018)

While the guy doing the vids is a bit odd, it's good that someone is willing to do this sort of thing.  There is more than enough hogwash in the martial arts community, and it's way past time that we started policing ourselves.  

*The Kumite*







*Background*







*Military Career*


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 29, 2018)

Isn't there a rule on this forum against fraudbusting?


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## Charlemagne (Jan 29, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Isn't there a rule on this forum against fraudbusting?



I was under the impression that meant members doing their own pseudo-investigations and then posting them.  This guy's videos have been shared in the past, and no one seemed to have a problem with it.  In addition, there is a current discussion about Mr. Dux that is ongoing.


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## Anarax (Jan 29, 2018)

You're right that Pinkman is odd. A lot of his other videos are similar, laced with awkward comedy and 1980's tv clips. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate criticisms of Frank Dux, but Pinkman doesn't usually do a good job proving his case. If you cut out the "comedy", tangents and his personal opinion, there's not much left in his videos. Meaning, if you want to try and inform people, you need facts. Pinkman finds some facts, but draws conclusions that aren't exactly grounded. Finding facts and former acquaintances(training partners, former servicemen, instructors, students, etc) of the person you are "busting" is the most objective way to go about it.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 29, 2018)

Pinkman also made fun of  dynamic tension exercises as if it was absurd to do.  its actually pretty common and a fundamental practice in a lot of karate.  the fact that he didnt know that reduces his credibility.


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## JR 137 (Jan 29, 2018)

It’s in a bit poor taste to call someone out like this.  If you have a question about his claims, how about asking him directly instead of a potential free-for-all thread?

I asked him about his 56 KOs claim.  He replied.  Not exactly the most concise response, but he responded nonetheless.  At first he seemed defensive about it and seemed to think I was going to attack his claim as has been done like the video.

Regarding the kumite record, he stated a lot of people fought each other, and it wasn’t a traditional single or double elimination tournament.  It was basically each competitor fights a number of fights over a time period and the person with the best record is declared the winner.  I don’t see that as a tournament, but he does.  I see it as a season, series, etc.  But whatever.

I’m not saying he’s the real deal by any means. I’ve never met him nor trained with him to call him anything.

His history and claims are controversial, to put it nicely.  But calling him or anyone else here out like this is pretty tasteless.  Do it the right way.

Hopefully I got this in before the thread gets locked and/or deleted.


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## Charlemagne (Jan 29, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> It’s in a bit poor taste to call someone out like this.


 
And here I was thinking that it is in poor taste to fabricate history, to include making a living off of falsifying your military credentials and training.


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## JR 137 (Jan 29, 2018)

Charlemagne said:


> And here I was thinking that it is in poor taste to fabricate history, to include making a living off of falsifying your military credentials and training.



Rather than state and pass these things off as fact, why not ask?  It’s all in the delivery.

Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo?  Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false.  Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique?  Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux.  Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?

I’m not a fan of his.  A lot of the claims he’s made are pretty out there.  Many have called him a pathological liar.  The thing is, none of it makes any difference in my life.  What he and his students/followers do is their business.  I have no clue if his MA is legit or a complete hoax.  And I’ll probably never find out because I’ll never actively seek him out.

Bashing the guy gets old.  It’s too easy to do.  You’re not coming up with anything original here.  That’s really my point, I guess.  You’re a good guy, Charlemagne.  Don’t stoop to this level.  It’s not going to get anyone anywhere.


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## Charlemagne (Jan 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo?  Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false.  Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique?  Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux.  Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?


  We are not talking about Royce.  If you simply take his martial arts claims alone, we have a problem. If you add everything else in, we have a pathological liar who shouldn't be allowed to teach anyone anything.  




> Bashing the guy gets old.  It’s too easy to do.  You’re not coming up with anything original here.  That’s really my point, I guess.  You’re a good guy, Charlemagne.  Don’t stoop to this level.  It’s not going to get anyone anywhere.


  I didn't come up with it at all.  I merely shared what someone else had done. I'm sick and tired of the garbage in martial arts and am glad when this sort of thing gets exposed.  Legitimate martial artists should be happy about exposing the charlatans that are among us.  You obviously don't like that sort of thing, and that is fine.  You are not obligated to read or participate in this thread.


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## JR 137 (Jan 30, 2018)

Charlemagne said:


> We are not talking about Royce.  If you simply take his martial arts claims alone, we have a problem. If you add everything else in, we have a pathological liar who shouldn't be allowed to teach anyone anything.
> 
> 
> I didn't come up with it at all.  I merely shared what someone else had done. I'm sick and tired of the garbage in martial arts and am glad when this sort of thing gets exposed.  Legitimate martial artists should be happy about exposing the charlatans that are among us.  You obviously don't like that sort of thing, and that is fine.  You are not obligated to read or participate in this thread.


What teaching claims has he made?  I’m not talking about the side-show nonsense like military, tournament records, etc.  I’m talking about actual claims of his system and techniques he actually teaches on the floor, day in and day out.  I haven’t seen ANY video of what it’s actually like.  I’ve seen a few “pep talks,” philosophical lectures, etc., but I’ve never seen anything actually instructional.  His claims are a bit outrageous IMO, but I look at them as a distraction.

Look at all the claims MAists have made throughout history.  There’s a Mas Oyama thread kind of going right now.  Killing bulls, chopping off their horns, catching live blade swords with his hands, etc. is all a distraction.  What matters is the Kyokushin system.  Oyama’s students have put their money where their mouth is.  People can refute some of Gracie’s claims.  It’s a distraction IMO.  His students have put their money where their mouth is too.  As for Dux?  I don’t think anyone really knows what’s being taught outside of his students.  Is it legit or fraud?  I have no evidence of either.  I haven’t seen any Ashida Kim-like videos, but I haven’t seen any Gracie JJ nor Kyokushin-like videos either.

Good luck with ridding the earth of frauds.  I was there for a short while too.  You eventually come to a point where you say let everyone do whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn’t effect me and my family and friends.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jan 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Rather than state and pass these things off as fact, why not ask?  It’s all in the delivery.
> 
> Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo?  Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false.  Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique?  Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux.  Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?
> 
> ...





JR 137 said:


> What teaching claims has he made?  I’m not talking about the side-show nonsense like military, tournament records, etc.  I’m talking about actual claims of his system and techniques he actually teaches on the floor, day in and day out.  I haven’t seen ANY video of what it’s actually like.  I’ve seen a few “pep talks,” philosophical lectures, etc., but I’ve never seen anything actually instructional.  His claims are a bit outrageous IMO, but I look at them as a distraction.
> 
> Look at all the claims MAists have made throughout history.  There’s a Mas Oyama thread kind of going right now.  Killing bulls, chopping off their horns, catching live blade swords with his hands, etc. is all a distraction.  What matters is the Kyokushin system.  Oyama’s students have put their money where their mouth is.  People can refute some of Gracie’s claims.  It’s a distraction IMO.  His students have put their money where their mouth is too.  As for Dux?  I don’t think anyone really knows what’s being taught outside of his students.  Is it legit or fraud?  I have no evidence of either.  I haven’t seen any Ashida Kim-like videos, but I haven’t seen any Gracie JJ nor Kyokushin-like videos either.
> 
> Good luck with ridding the earth of frauds.  I was there for a short while too.  You eventually come to a point where you say let everyone do whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn’t effect me and my family and friends.



You're on to a good point here, I think.

Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.

Helio Gracie made a lot of questionable self-aggrandizing claims during his life. (Most of them could be classified as extreme spin rather than outright lies, but still he wasn't what I would call a beacon of honesty or moral rectitude.) However he also put his reputation on the line with a number of legitimate, publicly documented challenge matches. More importantly, he helped teach and raise a generation of fighters who went on to prove the effectiveness of BJJ in a variety of contexts.

Mas Oyama made a number of claims which were either greatly exaggerated (his record of challenge matches in the U.S.) or downright fraudulent (chopping off the bull's horn). However he also created an art which has spread worldwide and repeatedly been proven effective in one-on-one unarmed combat just as BJJ has.

Bando grandmaster Dr. Maung Gyi fabricated an impressive military record and lied about it for years before being exposed. However he also helped spread an effective fighting art across the U.S., produced a decent crop of amateur full-contact fighters, and his martial expertise is praised by the Dog Brothers, who are some of the toughest martial artists around.

As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about  the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.


This. Some years ago, some folks in the NGAA went looking to track down some of the founder's history (a choke point in the lineage lost much detail of the history). They were unable to find the records they wanted to provide specifics on his Daito-ryu training. One of the senior martial artists helping them research basically said, "Why spend all this time and effort on it? If NGA works, then it wouldn't really matter if Morita invented it all from nothing."


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## Buka (Jan 30, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're on to a good point here, I think.
> 
> Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.
> 
> ...



Got me to thinking here, Tony. I haven't met everyone in Martial Arts, but the many I know have trained with, or met, everyone from Bruce Lee to Rocky Marciano, from Ashida Kim to Laila Ali, from Count Dante to Steven Seagal.

But I've never met anyone who has even _seen_ Frank Dux. Does he really exist? Maybe he's like Betty Crocker.


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## JR 137 (Jan 30, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> You're on to a good point here, I think.
> 
> Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.
> 
> ...


You made every point I was trying to make, only far more articulately.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> You made every point I was trying to make, only far more articulately.


Tony is frustratingly good at that sometimes.


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## wab25 (Jan 30, 2018)

For anyone who cares... I was able to find video of Frank Dux demonstrating technique and teaching techniques... also a few breaking and cutting videos. Just go to youtube and put in Frank Dux. You will have to sort through to find the real footage of him and not people that look like him. You will also be able to find videos of his students and other Dux Ryu practitioners.

I will let those interested look those videos up and come to their own conclusions.

I will honestly say that I was hoping he would get past arguing whether he was really Frank and whether his system was real and or legitimate... and get on to sharing what he has learned in his studies, as it applies to the various other thread topics found here. Here's hoping...


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 30, 2018)

wab25 said:


> For anyone who cares... I was able to find video of Frank Dux demonstrating technique and teaching techniques... also a few breaking and cutting videos. Just go to youtube and put in Frank Dux. You will have to sort through to find the real footage of him and not people that look like him. You will also be able to find videos of his students and other Dux Ryu practitioners.
> 
> I will let those interested look those videos up and come to their own conclusions.
> 
> I will honestly say that I was hoping he would get past arguing whether he was really Frank and whether his system was real and or legitimate... and get on to sharing what he has learned in his studies, as it applies to the various other thread topics found here. Here's hoping...


Why not share a few of those you found, rather than everyone repeating the search?


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## wab25 (Jan 31, 2018)

As requested...

Here are some of the videos I found of Frank Dux in action. 





















Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Dragon Technique
Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Leopard Technique
Alonso Rosado con Frank Dux 1989
Frank Dux promoted by Calasanz

A few of Dux Ryu practitioners...

Dux Ryu Ninjutsu
Dux Ryu Kick Boxing


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2018)

wab25 said:


> As requested...
> 
> Here are some of the videos I found of Frank Dux in action.
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting that. Nothing earth-shatteringly either good or bad in those. Some of the same demo nonsense we see with almost all demonstrations. Some structural issues I see with some of the techniques (both in demonstration and in the students), but nothing surprising.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 31, 2018)

Buka said:


> But I've never met anyone who has even _seen_ Frank Dux.


you should know better than that,  he is a CIA ninja *OF COURSE NO ONE EVER SEES HIM. 
*
oh and i find it hard to believe you dont know everyone in MA. i think your just being modest to make a point.


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## Buka (Jan 31, 2018)

That Jack Daniels bottle break was pretty intense. I never saw that kind of break before.


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 31, 2018)

yeah i kinda like how he just walked around the area after in his bare feet like it was nothing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> yeah i kinda like how he just walked around the area after in his bare feet like it was nothing.


I apparently didn't watch that far into the video. Him walking like that makes new wonder if it was sugar glass (what's used in movies for breaking bottles/windows).


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## hoshin1600 (Jan 31, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I apparently didn't watch that far into the video. Him walking like that makes new wonder if it was sugar glass (what's used in movies for breaking bottles/windows).


it wasnt something he was doing to show off it was incidental.  but yeah same as i was thinking


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> it wasnt something he was doing to show off it was incidental.  but yeah same as i was thinking


And similarly with the blindfold responses. I know of an instructor who did a big demo in Madison Square Gardens decades ago, which included blindfolded knife defenses. His senior student shared years later that the instructor was trained as a stage magician, and was able to see during that demo (apparently using a trick blindfold, which I suppose stage magicians do on a regular basis).


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## KabutoKouji (Feb 2, 2018)

I'm diggin the Buck Rogers style gis


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I apparently didn't watch that far into the video. Him walking like that makes new wonder if it was sugar glass (what's used in movies for breaking bottles/windows).


Yeah, I feel like there is something fishy about those breaks...including the one one “bulletproof” glass.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I feel like there is something fishy about those breaks...including the one one “bulletproof” glass.



Several people involved in that demo have said that the bottles were sugar glass, and the "bulletproof" glass was just a piece of plexiglass.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 3, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Several people involved in that demo have said that the bottles were sugar glass, and the "bulletproof" glass was just a piece of plexiglass.


I saw the speculation in this thread but didn’t know it had been confirmed.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I saw the speculation in this thread but didn’t know it had been confirmed.



As I recall, one of the people involved was a movie special effects guy who stated that he provided the sugar glass.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2018)

The supposed bullet proof glass was single pane with no layering. Bullet proof glass doesn't break up like it did.

This is a panel of bullet proof glass struck several times with a sledge hammer. Nothing like shown in the above video.


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## JR 137 (Feb 3, 2018)

I’ve heard the bottle and bulletproof glass refuted many times.

It’s a demo.  Does it really matter much in the whole grand scheme of things?  Some very well-respected teachers do some demo stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with what they teach.  Shigeru Oyama did a sword catch demo countless times in his days.  The one that sticks out most was in the Fighting Black Kings movie with Tadashi Nakamura.  Nakamura has done it a few times too.  They did a whole routine of samurai sword defense.  Neither one of them has ever taught that nor sold it as “join my dojo and you’ll be able to do the same thing” or anything close to that.  Side note:  Oyama actually missed his sword catch one time and got his scalp split open.  I heard he rubbed his head and jokingly said “I think I should go get stitches” or something like that.

Looking at some of Dux’s actual teaching videos (I didn’t watch every minute of every one), I don’t see anything completely off the wall.  I’ve seen better and I’ve seen worse.  Far worse.  I didn’t care much for the knife defense where they were on the sidewalk, but I’ve seen worse things.  I thought the principles were better than the actual techniques, but again, I’ve seen better.

Like I said earlier, I see the demo stuff and the background stuff as a distraction.  What’s important is what he’s actually teaching his students, not what he claims his past was nor what he did in a demo.  All I’m saying is judge him and everyone else on what they actually teach.  There’s a lot of high profile and well respected teachers out there who aren’t exactly squeaky clean when it comes to their demos and past claims.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve heard the bottle and bulletproof glass refuted many times.
> 
> It’s a demo.  Does it really matter much in the whole grand scheme of things?  Some very well-respected teachers do some demo stuff that doesn’t have anything to do with what they teach.  Shigeru Oyama did a sword catch demo countless times in his days.  The one that sticks out most was in the Fighting Black Kings movie with Tadashi Nakamura.  Nakamura has done it a few times too.  They did a whole routine of samurai sword defense.  Neither one of them has ever taught that nor sold it as “join my dojo and you’ll be able to do the same thing” or anything close to that.  Side note:  Oyama actually missed his sword catch one time and got his scalp split open.  I heard he rubbed his head and jokingly said “I think I should go get stitches” or something like that.
> 
> ...


Agreed. Demo stuff is usually either boring as heck (bad demo) or interesting and flaky (bad MA). I only get concerned when it actually manages to be both boring and bad MA.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 4, 2018)

Well, spun sugar bottles and faux bullet proof glass is just downright deceitful.

If it is true that he did in fact use these materials, then it speaks volumes to his character.

I can look past stretching the truth for dramatic effect.  A blatant and deliberate deception, designed to enhance his image in the eyes of the uneducated, that I cannot forgive.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 4, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, spun sugar bottles and faux bullet proof glass is just downright deceitful.
> 
> If it is true that he did in fact use these materials, then it speaks volumes to his character.
> 
> I can look past stretching the truth for dramatic effect.  A blatant and deliberate deception, designed to enhance his image in the eyes of the uneducated, that I cannot forgive.


A lot of skilled martial artists have given demonstrations that weren't what the public thought they were. Somewhere there's a vague and hazy line that gets crossed, and (as the adjectives imply) I'm not entirely sure where that line is. The sugar glass is probably over that line. Calling something "bullet-proof glass" that isn't is definitely over that line.

Demonstrations are marketing, so a lot of "fluff" shows up. Pre-planned attack and defense sequences made to look spontaneous are fodder for ethical philosophy, but don't really set me off - these are more a recognition of the problem of public perception and reaction. Lying to the crowd is another thing.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> A lot of skilled martial artists have given demonstrations that weren't what the public thought they were. Somewhere there's a vague and hazy line that gets crossed, and (as the adjectives imply) I'm not entirely sure where that line is. The sugar glass is probably over that line. Calling something "bullet-proof glass" that isn't is definitely over that line.
> 
> Demonstrations are marketing, so a lot of "fluff" shows up. Pre-planned attack and defense sequences made to look spontaneous are fodder for ethical philosophy, but don't really set me off - these are more a recognition of the problem of public perception and reaction. Lying to the crowd is another thing.


Well and there was that bit in the video where his accomplice pretended to shoot a bullet into the glass, thereby “establishing” that fact.  What a bunch of con men.


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## Charlemagne (Feb 12, 2018)




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## Charlemagne (Feb 20, 2018)




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## USMC0311 (Aug 31, 2018)

Why would any self respecting Martial Artist take part in legitimizing a con man and a fraud?


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## USMC0311 (Sep 1, 2018)

Why are people saying that the Pinkmans videos aren't legit? That's insanity. His intro music is much more official sounding too. Seriously though- why would anyone dispute such obvious facts. The narrative of Frank Dux is fairly simple. He's a non-rate Valor thief (the guy was not covert in any capacity when he was active duty, it doesn't work that way. But there's nothing shaky with the logic in any video that calls out the BS of martial arts frauds like Dux and Kim, and there's nothing feeble about the points held against either man because both of those guys created this problem for themselves. Maybe don't lie so much? Either way- defending a piece of trash like Dux is a huge indictment about the person doing the defending because they're knowingly defending a lie by bending the truth themselves. It's that or it's delusion. The OP has it right- the community should police itself against frauds.  Former military does, and so do boxers and other people who participate in combat sports. 

The reason for outing these frauds isn't because it's fun or funny- outing frauds is necessary because these people are teaching dubious techniques that probably won't hold up in a real life situation and on top of that,  when they buy their way to black belt, these frauds will have the students thinking that they are more capable than they really are. 


These frauds who teach are dangerous. One day, someone is going to be LAARPing on the wrong property and they're gonna get shot up, even if they've trained in bullet dodging. 


Sure, the byproduct can yield some laughs but lets not forget that the reason people like Dux and Kim are put out there is so it makes it harder for them to rip off people who are easily swayed by suggestion.


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## REDMAGE (Sep 1, 2018)

Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.

Frank Dux and his exceedingly large laundry list of lies make all practitioners look like jokes. Especially when people in the community rise up to defend him. 

Pinkman stated facts, whether you'd like to believe it or not. Much of the topics visited in this thread were already touched on in his videos, so it's clear that some people didn't even bother watching them before making their remarks. Pinkman did his research.


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.



And what pray tell is a black belt exactly "supposed" to be?

The definition varies wildly from art to art and from person to person - everything from "advanced beginner" through to "pinnacle of humanity"...

On a personal level, any sort of charlatan really has no bearing or influence on me, but people who expect a black belt to imbue superhuman morals and honesty are (imo) more deluded than those who try to jump mountains


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## REDMAGE (Sep 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> And what pray tell is a black belt exactly "supposed" to be?
> 
> The definition varies wildly from art to art and from person to person - everything from "advanced beginner" through to "pinnacle of humanity"...
> 
> On a personal level, any sort of charlatan really has no bearing or influence on me, but people who expect a black belt to imbue superhuman morals and honesty are (imo) more deluded than those who try to jump mountains



At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.


Im not looking to any 9 year olds as role models


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2018)

If I am a role model in any way (and that is a huge IF), it has nothing to do with me being a black belt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

USMC0311 said:


> Why are people saying that the Pinkmans videos aren't legit? That's insanity. His intro music is much more official sounding too. Seriously though- why would anyone dispute such obvious facts. The narrative of Frank Dux is fairly simple. He's a non-rate Valor thief (the guy was not covert in any capacity when he was active duty, it doesn't work that way. But there's nothing shaky with the logic in any video that calls out the BS of martial arts frauds like Dux and Kim, and there's nothing feeble about the points held against either man because both of those guys created this problem for themselves. Maybe don't lie so much? Either way- defending a piece of trash like Dux is a huge indictment about the person doing the defending because they're knowingly defending a lie by bending the truth themselves. It's that or it's delusion. The OP has it right- the community should police itself against frauds.  Former military does, and so do boxers and other people who participate in combat sports.
> 
> The reason for outing these frauds isn't because it's fun or funny- outing frauds is necessary because these people are teaching dubious techniques that probably won't hold up in a real life situation and on top of that,  when they buy their way to black belt, these frauds will have the students thinking that they are more capable than they really are.
> 
> ...


 Just a heads-up. You may have missed it in the forum rules, but fraud-busting isn't allowed in this site. Just trying to make sure you don't accidentally run afoul of the moderators.


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.



But why should having a black belt automatically mean you should be compelled to be any sort of role model?

To be an instructor, maybe - but even that's debatable...

Not all black belts instruct, it's not a requirement in a lot of arts. You mostly have to have a BB to instruct (and be authorised to do so by the relevant governing body), but you don't have to instruct to gain a BB.


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## REDMAGE (Sep 1, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Im not looking to any 9 year olds as role models





pdg said:


> But why should having a black belt automatically mean you should be compelled to be any sort of role model?
> 
> To be an instructor, maybe - but even that's debatable...
> 
> Not all black belts instruct, it's not a requirement in a lot of arts. You mostly have to have a BB to instruct (and be authorised to do so by the relevant governing body), but you don't have to instruct to gain a BB.





Flying Crane said:


> If I am a role model in any way (and that is a huge IF), it has nothing to do with me being a black belt.



Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?

Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.

Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.
> 
> Frank Dux and his exceedingly large laundry list of lies make all practitioners look like jokes. Especially when people in the community rise up to defend him.
> 
> Pinkman stated facts, whether you'd like to believe it or not. Much of the topics visited in this thread were already touched on in his videos, so it's clear that some people didn't even bother watching them before making their remarks. Pinkman did his research.


Dux and/or anyone else looking like a joke has zero bearing on my MA training.  If it makes you look like a joke, you should probably reevaluate why you’re training at all.  

He’s made outrageous claims and has done questionable demos.  He’s not the first, and nor will he be the last.  Even the highest respected MAist have done some shady demo stuff.  Ever hear of Mas Oyama?  No one (in their right mind) doubts his fighting and teaching skills.  Easily one of the most influential MAists of all time.  Ever see his chopping off bull horns with his bare hands?  Pretty suspect, and that has nothing to do with animal rights.

Ever hear of Willie Williams?  He fought a bear in a Kyokushin propaganda film.  Very shady, and again, nothing to do with animal rights.

There are tons of stories and demos by very well respected MAists that have been absolutely preposterous.  What’s important is what’s going on in the dojo, not outside the dojo.  That was the point of my previous post you disagreed with.


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

So what is it about martial arts over anything else that is supposed to grow spirituality? I certainly didn't sign up to a religion when I started learning how to kick someone in the head.

Let's face it, the whole premise of ma is learning how to overcome another person, usually violently - whether it's to defend yourself or not is somewhat by the by.

Having a BB doesn't make you any more a representative of the art than having a yellow belt really - it just means you've put more time and effort in.

I honestly don't think there's more or less burden on a "high level martial artist" to be anything more or less than any other person. The only burden is placed by the governing body, if there is one. If someone creates their own art (or offshoot of another) then what place is it of mine to judge their behaviour?

I spent years learning about computers, does that mean I am now obliged to be something special spiritually so I don't bring the IT industry into disrepute? What about high level golfers, or rowers, or mountain climbers, or carpenters?

Now, I can choose to be a person I'd like to be, and I pretty much choose to try to be someone I like - but that's not dependent upon doing or not doing any martial art.



REDMAGE said:


> We can nip the problem in the butt



By the way, the word is *bud*... Nipping a butt isn't something I'd usually do in public


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?
> 
> Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.
> 
> Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.


I disagree.


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> So what is it about martial arts over anything else that is supposed to grow spirituality? I certainly didn't sign up to a religion when I started learning how to kick someone in the head.
> 
> Let's face it, the whole premise of ma is learning how to overcome another person, usually violently - whether it's to defend yourself or not is somewhat by the by.
> 
> ...


People take the whole “do” concept too far sometimes.  That aspect was sold to the Japanese government by Kano and Funakoshi so their MA could be taught in the public school system.  And they succeeded.

Yes, MA have pretty much always had spiritual aspects; Japanese, European, et al.  But those guys were out facing death and killing on a regular basis, so spirituality and religion having a heavy presence isn’t mind boggling.

When MA went to the general public, I doubt they really needed anything beyond don’t beat people up unless you absolutely have to, don’t act like a douche bag and intimidate people, stuff like that.  No need to find Jesus, Allah, Ganesh, nor anyone else like that in a dojo IMO.

Just train hard and don’t go around trying to prove your alleged skills on people who you aren’t supposed to, and don’t talk sh!t.  Do that, and you’re fulfilling any “do” that may have been packaged as mystical IMO.


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Just train hard and don’t go around trying to prove your alleged skills on people who you aren’t supposed to, and don’t talk sh!t. Do that, and you’re fulfilling any “do” that may have been packaged as mystical IMO.



In other words, be a reasonable human being (plus train hard )


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> In other words, be a reasonable human being (plus train hard )


Couldn’t have said it better myself.  Then again, there’s no shortage of people who just can’t act like reasonable human beings, so maybe this whole seemingly overly elaborate “do” stuff actually does have a place.


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Couldn’t have said it better myself.  Then again, there’s no shortage of people who just can’t act like reasonable human beings, so maybe this whole seemingly overly elaborate “do” stuff actually does have a place.



But would it really change a person?

I don't think it would.

If someone is already reasonable, it may very well give a little boost here and there, but I can't see "do" turning a complete **** into a saint - it'll just teach a complete **** how to hit stuff.

And before anyone says that complete **** might get kicked out, they'll just find someone who won't kick them out - plenty of those around too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

REDMAGE said:


> Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?
> 
> Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.
> 
> Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.


i don't think it's a truism that BBs are or should be considered representatives of their art. That rank can mean very different thing from art to.art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I disagree.


If agree with you disageeing, am I supposed to click Agree, or Disagree??


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

pdg said:


> But would it really change a person?
> 
> I don't think it would.
> 
> ...


Would it change a person?  Perhaps if the person wants to change, I guess.  I’d say no far more often than yes, but I guess it can and has somewhere.

I can tell you I changed a bit through karate.  Nothing to do with mystical “do” nonsense though.  I wasn’t the best fighter before karate, but I could hold my own.  Even people that could obviously beat me up tended not to mess with me because they knew they couldn’t just smack me around and have me run off crying.

I got into a bit more than my share of fights, and looking back it was most likely because I thought I had something to prove to myself.  Karate training made me realize I really didn’t have anything to prove.  A got into a fight or two after I’d been there a while.  One time my sensei at the time saw a busted blood vessel in my eye and knew it wasn’t something good.  So I told him what happened - my ex’s boyfriend was walking out of the bar and running his mouth yelling “I’m going to kick JR’s a$$ next time I see him.”  He didn’t realize I was about 20 feet behind him.  So I said “turn around, now’s your chance to be tough in front of your girlfriend.”  He ran into his lacrosse buddies’ house, I chased him in and beat him up in front of his friends.  Luckily I was pretty good friends with the ones who were there, and the 5 of them pulled me off of him and told me to leave otherwise they’d return the favor.

My sensei at the time just shook his head in genuine disappointment.  I’ll never forget what he asked me...

Did you think he could kick your a$$?
- No
Do you care if your ex thinks he could’ve
- No.  She even told him to leave before I kicked his a$$
Did it really matter if he could or couldn’t?
- No
Did kicking his a$$ make you feel better?
- No
So what did you really prove?
- When you put like that, not a damn thing.
Good thing those other guys were so nice to you.

That wasn’t “do.”   That was just a guy getting me to take an honest look at myself.  Other than a few times I genuinely had to defend myself and my idiot brother, I haven’t fought since.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Would it change a person?  Perhaps if the person wants to change, I guess.  I’d say no far more often than yes, but I guess it can and has somewhere.
> 
> I can tell you I changed a bit through karate.  Nothing to do with mystical “do” nonsense though.  I wasn’t the best fighter before karate, but I could hold my own.  Even people that could obviously beat me up tended not to mess with me because they knew they couldn’t just smack me around and have me run off crying.
> 
> ...


I actually would say that is the "do" aspect


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I actually would say that is the "do" aspect


Yeah, but nothing mystical.  No “ancient Chinese secret” involved.  No Miyagi-isms.  And a non-MAist who’s never stepped foot in a dojo could’ve said the same thing.  That’s being a normal human being, not a follower of “the way of the warrior” or any other stereotypical stuff.

Truth be told, had he started spouting off Funakoshi quotes or the like, it would’ve probably gone in one ear and out the other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but nothing mystical.  No “ancient Chinese secret” involved.  No Miyagi-isms.  And a non-MAist who’s never stepped foot in a dojo could’ve said the same thing.  That’s being a normal human being, not a follower of “the way of the warrior” or any other stereotypical stuff.
> 
> Truth be told, had he started spouting off Funakoshi quotes or the like, it would’ve probably gone in one ear and out the other.


To me, the "do" is just that stuff - trying to help students improve beyond fighting skills. It never has been mystical, except where a few sold it as such.


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## JR 137 (Sep 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> To me, the "do" is just that stuff - trying to help students improve beyond fighting skills. It never has been mystical, except where a few sold it as such.


That “do” is no different than sports coaches, teachers, scout leaders, et al.  If it was my high school football coach, my college mentor, or a coworker giving me the same advice, verbatim, would that still be “do?”  Or would that just be someone giving me some solid life advice?


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## pdg (Sep 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Would it change a person? Perhaps if the person wants to change, I guess. I’d say no far more often than yes, but I guess it can and has somewhere.



I think that's the crux of it.

If someone wants to change then sure, it can help provide focus and maybe even give an extra reason or two.

Maybe (surely) somewhere along the line someone has changed because of it, without going into it wanting to change.


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## USMC0311 (Sep 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Just a heads-up. You may have missed it in the forum rules, but fraud-busting isn't allowed in this site. Just trying to make sure you don't accidentally run afoul of the moderators.




Would you call this fraud busting or would you consider it as a few statements of obvious and shallow facts?


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## _Simon_ (Sep 2, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but nothing mystical.  No “ancient Chinese secret” involved.  No Miyagi-isms.  And a non-MAist who’s never stepped foot in a dojo could’ve said the same thing.  That’s being a normal human being, not a follower of “the way of the warrior” or any other stereotypical stuff.
> 
> Truth be told, had he started spouting off Funakoshi quotes or the like, it would’ve probably gone in one ear and out the other.





JR 137 said:


> That “do” is no different than sports coaches, teachers, scout leaders, et al.  If it was my high school football coach, my college mentor, or a coworker giving me the same advice, verbatim, would that still be “do?”  Or would that just be someone giving me some solid life advice?



Yeah I think it's all part of it. To me it has different levels, and when it's sold as secret woo-woo mystical stuff it can deter alot of people. If it's been a platform for some real self-awareness and self-honesty, I think that's part of the "way" aspect. It does go deeper, but it's not something that can be contrived and sold as some guarantee.

To me it's not mystical in the usual understanding of what that means, but a way of inquiring within and a process a real honesty with yourself. Like an investigation that you learn along the way in the process of doing it. Like peeling back more and more layers to see what's underneath. Just seems maybe more aligned with martial arts practice, but certainly applicable in other sports.

The trouble is when people turn the "do" into something it's doesn't seem to be (not saying at all I know what it is, but my current understanding of it), or just indulging in fantasy to escape from facing real stuff. It can certainly become over laden with some self-proclaimed "noble warrior on a quest" notions...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That “do” is no different than sports coaches, teachers, scout leaders, et al.  If it was my high school football coach, my college mentor, or a coworker giving me the same advice, verbatim, would that still be “do?”  Or would that just be someone giving me some solid life advice?


I think it's the same thing. I've said before that the non-martial benefits people get from MA can be had elsewhere. A good football coach can be as valuable as a good Karate instructor for that. Because we (those of us with Eastern arts background) learn those words/terms from the origin languages, we sometimes think of them as specific to that group of arts. They really arent - those concepts are found in many places. I know some business managers who deliver good "do" to their direct reports.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 4, 2018)

USMC0311 said:


> Would you call this fraud busting or would you consider it as a few statements of obvious and shallow facts?


Since some folks actually used the word "fraud"...


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