# Makiwara



## Don Roley (Jul 16, 2004)

Just for discussion....

I like  of makiwara to strike on. Sadly, I have managed to reduce mine to rags over the years and the cost of ordering one and having it sent to Japan is outragous.

I have another makiwara I got here in Japan, and also use a bag. But bags are not all that great _for our art_ IMO. The locally made makiwara also does not seem to be able to put up with much abuse.

So I am back to hitting steel beams when I can. Open palm only of course. I want to get the sand filled bag just so I can used a closed fist without risk of breaking my knuckles.

How many people use makiwara? I was rather surprised to find people that don't use them. After all, you can see them being used as far back as the pictures in Andrew Adams books, and they are being used in the Koto ryu tape from Quest. IMO, nothing beats hitting a makiwara. (Pun intended.)

If you doubt me, arrange to get hit by Oguri. He is the smallest of the Japanese shihan and uses dentures. But a half powered love tap from him still rocks me more than any blast I have taken from a visiting student. Guess what he sites as the source of his hitting ability? Yep, makiwara.

Oh, I use a bag from time to time, but the way we strike in the Bujinkan is better trained at with a makiwara or steel I- beam. The lack of movement on the part of the target is the big difference. You need to have great body allignment to hit correctly with a makiwara. With bags you can get away with just arm strength. I have seen massive guys hit a heavy bag and make it fly, but carefull observation shows they do not seem to have much of their body behind the blow. They can get away with it because of their bulk, but they miss the important lessons a makiwara can give.

Oh, and is there anyone who is planning on coming to Japan and maybe wants a little extra help with translating? Would they happen to have some extra space in their luggage for an empty sand makiwara? (Hint, hint, hint.)


----------



## Genin Andrew (Jul 17, 2004)

Striking a makiwara is a great way to find the weak and strong points in your technique,is your fist closed tightly enough?is your arm at a good angle? are you too tense in the elbow? and little things like that.Because alot of makiwara dont have the resistence like a punching bag,you really feel whether your impact is being absorbed as a good strong strike or whether your arm is too straight and you're doing nothing but jarring all those precious arm muscles.

A little note though,as Don said about striking with a closed fist,it is in my opinion that conditioning of your open palm is alot more valuable than thousands of punches into a makiwara.Alot of people get into a boxing routine and think that punching hard objects day in and day out will give you fists of iron and its easy to forget just how effective a decent open palm strike to the side of the neck can be....and how hard is the side of your neck???

Conditioning is very important and a makiwara is great training,also for coordination.


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 19, 2004)

On a side note, what is everyone's general take on conditioning as a whole?? How do you feel this aspect of training is generally approached in Ninpo (in your experience)??


----------



## Don Roley (Jul 20, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> On a side note, what is everyone's general take on conditioning as a whole?? How do you feel this aspect of training is generally approached in Ninpo (in your experience)??



Do you mean hand conditioning instead of endurance, etc?

Bad.

I have heard that Takamatsu told Hatsumi not to try to condition his hands like Takamatsu did. By the time Hatsumi met him, he was having trouble with things like circulation in his old age. Takamatsu needed tough hands fast. Hatsumi had the chance to just get things correct when he hit.

Think about how much of a giveaway extended knuckles like you see some karateka are. Ninja would not want anything like that. Take a look at the Japaense shihan- a immegration official or police officer would not give thema  second look. But take a hit from Noguchi, Oguri, etc and see just how hard they can hit.


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2004)

> Do you mean hand conditioning instead of endurance, etc?



Yes, I did. And thank you for the clarification.  :asian:

That being said, and since it was brought up, what is everyone's general take on endurance training in their experiences of Ninpo??

Thanks again.


----------



## Don Roley (Jul 21, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> That being said, and since it was brought up, what is everyone's general take on endurance training in their experiences of Ninpo??



Bit of a thread drift, don't you think?

But as a quick answer, take a look at how much Hatsumi walks. He does not lift weights, does not look buff, but he can keep going even when college age students are huffing and puffing.

Take the stairs, go swimiming and walk instead of driving when you can. It is all good. And it can help you a lot when you are running from an attacker. That is your first choice rather than fight, isn't it?


----------



## KenpoTess (Jul 21, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> On a side note, what is everyone's general take on conditioning as a whole?? How do you feel this aspect of training is generally approached in Ninpo (in your experience)??




How about starting a new thread on that, heretic 

~Tess


----------



## heretic888 (Jul 21, 2004)

No problemo.

Done and done.


----------



## Silent Nightfall (Jul 21, 2004)

Don, if you can't find anyone within the next year, unlikely as it is, to bring you that empty sand makiwara, I'll gladly be your delivery boy of sorts.  :ultracool


----------



## Shogun (Aug 1, 2004)

> If you doubt me, arrange to get hit by Oguri. He is the smallest of the Japanese shihan and uses dentures. But a half powered love tap from him still rocks me more than any blast I have taken from a visiting student. Guess what he sites as the source of his hitting ability? Yep, makiwara.


I wish I could get hit by Oguri........



> being used in the Koto ryu tape from Quest


Yep. Those "classical" dvd's are ssooooo insightful.

For Makiwara, I use rope tied around a tree, in my Keiko Nohara.


----------



## Kurohana (Aug 1, 2004)

When I was in Saudi, proper training equipment was hard to come by. As a substitute for makiwara pads, I used a telephone pole. I had one planted in the ground, wrapped in rope. Two of them mounted in tires/concrete (slight rocking motion) and wrapped in vinyl padding and duct tape. Great for conditioning without tearing up my knuckles.


----------



## Shogun (Aug 7, 2004)

I just got a 40 lb bag for striking. I was going to spend the extra money and get a Muay thai bag (72" long) but this will do just fine.


----------



## tmanifold (Aug 7, 2004)

I used rope and carpet around a 4 by 4 post for a long time. It was enough give that I could punch it as long as I worked up to full strength. The post was quite long so it had a bit of flex to it which was nice.


Tony


----------



## Shogun (Aug 7, 2004)

I think for the added strength conditioning (of the hands) I am going to make a new Makiwara. I made one a long time ago, that was a letherette bag fill with dog food. I then tied that to a post in my yard.


Good training,
KE


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I just got a 40 lb bag for striking. I was going to spend the extra money and get a Muay thai bag (72" long) but this will do just fine.



I have a bag that I strike. But I feel that bags that can move when you hit them should be kept in a seperate conversation from makiwara. As I said, I do have a bag and hit it. But I really feel that the best training comes from hitting something that won't move. In my experience, and in the advice of those whose experience I trust, there is no better feedback device for striking than hitting an unmovable object.

Oh, and Silent Nightfall, thanks for the offer but one of the guys I have some naughty photos of has decided to give in to my blackmail and get met me the makiwara. Thanks for the offer though.


----------



## Shogun (Aug 10, 2004)

Yes. true. Bags and Makiwara should not really be compared. The bag however, helps me with correct striking, and the I can practice in Makiwara. I still use my super-Cool "rope tied around a tree". practice hitting something that doesnt move, then hit something that does move. The thing that does move 
(ie. Human) will feel like a water baloon when you strike it.

Cheers,
Shogun


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Yes. true. Bags and Makiwara should not really be compared. The bag however, helps me with correct striking, and the I can practice in Makiwara. I still use my super-Cool "rope tied around a tree". practice hitting something that doesnt move, then hit something that does move. The thing that does move
> (ie. Human) will feel like a water baloon when you strike it.
> 
> Cheers,
> Shogun



Have you ever tried a BOB?  Are they any good as far as bags go?  A lot of people swear by them... but I have never liked practicing Taijutsu on a bag...


----------



## Shogun (Aug 10, 2004)

Yes, I have. 


BOB is an awesome bag. I can see how people swear by them as bags. Not good for striking very hard though. Thery would be much better with arms (or one extended right) or at least the option of it.

cheers,
KE


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 11, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Yes, I have.
> 
> 
> BOB is an awesome bag. I can see how people swear by them as bags. Not good for striking very hard though. Thery would be much better with arms (or one extended right) or at least the option of it.
> ...



Theres your million dollar idea for the year...


----------



## Enson (Aug 11, 2004)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Theres your million dollar idea for the year...


how about with legs? not just the extended body but real legs.


----------



## gmunoz (Aug 11, 2004)

This thread isn't about BOB, but I do own one and it works for me really well.  The arms and legs idea would be great I must say!


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 12, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> BOB is an awesome bag. I can see how people swear by them as bags. Not good for striking very hard though.



On a mailing list I am on, a few people pointed out that the BOBs they see on display seem to have their faces falling off. The general opinion seems to mirror yours that they can not take much abuse.

Of course, if you were to take a sturdy dummy's head and mount it on a wing chung set, attaching makiwara like the one I like to it..........


----------



## Kizaru (Aug 30, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> On a mailing list I am on, a few people pointed out that the BOBs they see on display seem to have their faces falling off. The general opinion seems to mirror yours that they can not take much abuse.


What about "NINGEN MAKIWARA"? I've been using one on Sunday mornings regularly for the past few months, it's kind of cheap and nasty but the face hasn't fallen off yet....


----------



## Shogun (Aug 30, 2004)

Me not sure what that looks like. do you have pictures?

KE


----------



## AaronLucia (Sep 3, 2004)

I just use my trees.  Although i can only hit 'em about 10 times before i have to stop.


----------



## Don Roley (Sep 6, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Me not sure what that looks like. do you have pictures?



"Ningen" means "human" in Japanese which means the demon monkey (Kizaru) is one of those sadistic nut cases that compensate for a lack of manhood by beating on poor, unsuspecting training partners instead of hitting targets that don't have to explain to co-workers the next day why the have bruises in stange places.


----------



## AnimEdge (Sep 6, 2004)

I been meaning a Makiwara but no place around here seams to have them so i have to stick witht he standing bag i took from the gym i go to > untill i get one  do you just stick um to a wall or what?


----------



## bignick (Sep 6, 2004)

there are many varieties of makiwara...some are mounted to a wall...others free hang...can be hand-held...and some are dug into the ground


----------



## Shogun (Sep 8, 2004)

> "Ningen" means "human" in Japanese which means the demon monkey (Kizaru) is one of those sadistic nut cases that compensate for a lack of manhood by beating on poor, unsuspecting training partners instead of hitting targets that don't have to explain to co-workers the next day why the have bruises in stange places.


Thanks Don. If I would of thought about it, I probably would of got it. its kinda like a joke right? Ha.


----------



## Kizaru (Sep 29, 2004)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> ...which means the demon monkey (Kizaru) is one of those sadistic nut cases that compensate for a lack of manhood by beating on poor, unsuspecting training partners instead of hitting targets that don't have to explain to co-workers the next day why the have bruises in stange places.


:tantrum: :sadsong:



and...


:fart: PE!

Man, this is cooler than Kanji!


----------

