# Hell in a Handbasket - 1 samurai sword vs 5 in chains and hammers



## Ceicei (May 2, 2008)

This is an article posted yesterday at the "Hell in a Handbasket" website.  It mentions a story that happened last year about a break-in somewhere in England. I laughed when I read it (perhaps because of the way how it is written).  Apparently five criminals had chains and hammers and were breaking in when two unarmed detectives came across them and tried to arrest them.  They weren't very successful until an unknown person with a samurai sword was able to come to the defense of these detectives.

Anyway, hope you enjoy this article as much as I did.  If you click on this link later than today (articles get pushed down as new ones are added), look for the one entitled "All Scimitars, Sabers, Kopesh, and Katana Are Now Illegal!"

http://www.hellinahandbasket.net/

- Ceicei


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## theletch1 (May 2, 2008)

The citizen should have been hailed a hero.  Instead he felt he had to run and hide.  Man, it's sad that the safety of five thugs is so important.:flammad:


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## MA-Caver (May 2, 2008)

The guy was a foolish hero, using a "cheap samuari sword" thinking he's some superhero coming in to save the day. It even pointed out that he didn't use it very well. 
His intentions were very honorable I'll give him that. Kudos for being brave and desiring to help out officers who were outnumbered and unarmed (which is an extreme puzzlement right there all by itself). 
But having a sword in hand does not make one an expert. The spirit of the samurai isn't going to mystically arise within you once you pick up a cheap imitation (or even the real one) of their weapons. 
Thus it was a foolish risk. He is probably patting himself on the back right now and wondering about the designs of his costume. 

Interesting quote from the article.


> Many American gunbloggers have noted that the media and other pro-gun control types become hysterical when discussing firearms. They like to infer that owning a gun is similar to petting a coiled cobra, as both will leap up and kill without warning when you least expect it.



This is an ignorant statement if I ever read one, and agree that it's a hysterical viewpoint of owning a gun, the owner has to pick it up and point and squeeze the trigger so the owner is the dangerous one not the gun itself... just as if the gun is lying on a table, even if it's loaded, cocked and ready to fire... it's not going to do anything til someone picks it up or knocks it off the table to the floor (where it might discharge). 
Same with a coiled cobra. Sure it'll strike *if* you move towards it as to pet it. But leaving it alone... it'll uncoil and find a nice niche to hide in so it can't be bothered.


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## Tez3 (May 2, 2008)

Both South Shields and the town mentioned in the article Hartlepool are about half an hour away from me, I haven't heard of the story before I must admit but I doubt they guy had the sword for any actual good motive! Both places are such that police officers going on raids there are usually armed, they are very rough places. The North East of England prides itself on it's hardmen and some of the 'best' are found there.  Hartlepool however is best known for trying  and hanging it in the mistaken belief it was a French spy in the Napoleonic Wars and you can still wind them up nicely by mentioning it (that happens a lot at footbal matches lol)


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## Bigshadow (May 2, 2008)

Ceicei said:


> This is an article posted yesterday at the "Hell in a Handbasket" website.  It mentions a story that happened last year about a break-in somewhere in England. I laughed when I read it (perhaps because of the way how it is written).  Apparently five criminals had chains and hammers and were breaking in when two unarmed detectives came across them and tried to arrest them.  They weren't very successful until an unknown person with a samurai sword was able to come to the defense of these detectives.
> 
> Anyway, hope you enjoy this article as much as I did.  If you click on this link later than today (articles get pushed down as new ones are added), look for the one entitled "All Scimitars, Sabers, Kopesh, and Katana Are Now Illegal!"
> 
> ...



So Orwellian!    Welcome to the NEW dark ages!


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## Tez3 (May 2, 2008)

I've had this argument/discussion on another thread, they aren't illegal for martial artists and collectors just chavs, yobs and criminals.


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## theletch1 (May 2, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I've had this argument/discussion on another thread, they aren't illegal for martial artists and collectors just chavs, yobs and criminals.


Ok, Tez, criminals we all know.  Yobs I've picked up from other posts of yours and Marks...but what the hell is a chav?!:hb:


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## Deaf Smith (May 2, 2008)

Well what do you expect him to do? He was in England, the land of total gun control and where there is peace and harmony (so they say...)

He didn't have a Glock. If he had of had that, the five thugs would have been the ones running and no one would have been hurt.

He did what he could do with what he had. 

Remember that. 

When ever it goes down for you, you won't have that dream weapon nor be buffed up and ready to rumble. Brother Murphy will see to that.

You may very well be caught on the deck and will have to fight from a very disadvantagous position to start with. You do what you can with what you have.

Deaf


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## kidswarrior (May 2, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> The citizen should have been hailed a hero.  Instead he felt he had to run and hide.  Man, it's sad that the safety of five thugs is so important.:flammad:


I think what makes your statement so hair raising, is how close to home it strikes for us Americans. The idea of having to *prove* it was self defense...is, well, pretty close to trying to prove you're innocent. And we were never supposed to be required to do that. 



			
				Deaf Smith said:
			
		

> He did what he could do with what he had.
> 
> Remember that.
> 
> ...


My thoughts, too. :bangahead:


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## Tez3 (May 3, 2008)

Chavs are a blight on mankind lol! 
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...ine:Chav&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title


Perception of other peoples countries and behaviours is a strange thing! Believe it or not we like it the way it is now, total gun control, hell yes that's what *we *want, there's no mass uprisings demanding we are armed. 
I think you have to know our laws a little better before you criticise us! We are allowed to use reasonable force to defend ourselves and despite what you may have read or seen on the news NO person has ever been prosecuted for *legally* defending themselves or their families or their homes. There was a well publicised case of a householder killing an intruder and being sent to prison for it but the facts of the case were well muddied by the media and others. The police in fact had been after him for a while, while the lads who broke into his house were undoubtably wrong, the householder's acts were equally criminal. The facts of the case were ignored and he was taken up as a cause celebre. He was actually arrested a little while ago for another violent act that no one could justify this time.
Personally I take with a large grain of salt any report I read in a newspaper or see on the news. You should see the hysterical and false reporting MMA gets!


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## kidswarrior (May 3, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Perception of other peoples countries and behaviours is a strange thing!
> 
> We are allowed to use reasonable force to defend ourselves and despite what you may have read or seen on the news NO person has ever been prosecuted for *legally* defending themselves or their families or their homes.


If I came across as targeting the UK, my apologies. I was actually thinking of the application to the US when I posted.


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## tellner (May 3, 2008)

No Tez. We did not establish this. We established that the law _as written_ was stupid, overbroad, badly written, ineffectual, and tromped on the religious traditions of a couple prominent minorities. You provided vague assurances that police would only apply it when they wanted to and that that there were no actual safeguards against police using their powers of discrimination with *heh* discrimination. I note that two out of the three words describing Those People you mention are class-based in the best Anglo-American tradition.

*Once again, it's not your fault. You don't write the laws. You just enforce them.*

Further, you assume that he had evil attempt based on the price tag of the tool. Status crime once again.

No matter what you telepathically gleaned from the aether his actions were good. He defended the good people from demonstrated murderous criminals.


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## Deaf Smith (May 3, 2008)

Hear hear! Tellner! You speak the truth.

Deaf


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## chinto (May 5, 2008)

well if some of the democratic liberals have their way it will be the same here in the USA>. the difference is the supreme court of the United States of America has ruled that the cops have no duty to defend you..  YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IF ATTACKED LEGALLY!!    sorry that the same idiotic stuff has taken over in the UK and much of Europe from what I understand... if you dare to hurt the criminal that wants to murder you in most of Europe you will be prosecuted...


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2008)

tellner said:


> No Tez. We did not establish this. We established that the law _as written_ was stupid, overbroad, badly written, ineffectual, and tromped on the religious traditions of a couple prominent minorities. You provided vague assurances that police would only apply it when they wanted to and that that there were no actual safeguards against police using their powers of discrimination with *heh* discrimination. I note that two out of the three words describing Those People you mention are class-based in the best Anglo-American tradition.
> 
> *Once again, it's not your fault. You don't write the laws. You just enforce them.*
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2008)

chinto said:


> well if some of the democratic liberals have their way it will be the same here in the USA>. the difference is the supreme court of the United States of America has ruled that the cops have no duty to defend you.. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IF ATTACKED LEGALLY!! sorry that the same idiotic stuff has taken over in the UK and much of Europe from what I understand... *if you dare to hurt the criminal that* *wants to murder you in most of Europe you will be prosecuted...[/*quote]
> 
> 
> No you won't, that's a myth.


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## Sukerkin (May 5, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I'm not getting into an argument again about swords as I seem to be misunderstood whatever I write. I know what the law allows, what it says and what it means. if people chose to read it as meaning something else i can't help that.


 
A most wise attitude, Irene :tup:.  

I've found myself that sometimes the hardest thing to do is just leave a subject alone when I haven't effectively got my point across.  But sometimes you have to, for the sake of your own inner peace if nothing else .


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2008)

Sukerkin, I've spent the weekend in York and the 'sword' shop there still has all the swords in the window. Every recreation of film and mythical swords as well as historical ones going! Plus Nunchukas,Sai and knives of all discriptions. The shop is just down from the Minster.  I also went to the Japanese shop and bought a book by Nicklaus Suino called "Practice Drills for Japanese Swordsmanship", I'm going to teach myself how to use my Bokken!!
Today I was at the Yorkshire Air Museum, a memorial to the Allied and British Air Forces, sobering to see all the young people who died for our freedom. Not off subject in an oblique way!


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## Sukerkin (May 5, 2008)

An interesting 'real world report' there, *Tez* :tup:.

As to Suino's book, I've had it for quite a few years and haven't really had much use out of it.  It's fragmentary snapshots of drills could well be very handy for someone just starting out tho', especially someone not of Japanese mindset because of the very fact that it breaks things down so far.

I find Suino's "The Art of Japanese Swordsmanship" much more useful to me in Iai but that one really does need a sensei to guide you through it (that said, I eleive it has been revised recently).


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## Tez3 (May 5, 2008)

Sadly I have no one to teach me so a book the best I'm going to get for now!


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## chinto (May 6, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> chinto said:
> 
> 
> > well if some of the democratic liberals have their way it will be the same here in the USA>. the difference is the supreme court of the United States of America has ruled that the cops have no duty to defend you.. YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN IF ATTACKED LEGALLY!! sorry that the same idiotic stuff has taken over in the UK and much of Europe from what I understand... *if you dare to hurt the criminal that* *wants to murder you in most of Europe you will be prosecuted...[/*quote]
> ...


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## Tez3 (May 6, 2008)

You can however get away with murder in France if you can prove it was done in a moment of passion and not planned .They say too you can get away with a murder if it's done during the Mistral, that I could easily believe as it makes most people very short tempered me included! 
A common mistake made by many is that the law in another land cannot possibly be fair or as good as theirs. In many cases in can.


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## Zero (May 6, 2008)

Is it so wrong to wish for the opportunity of coming across a group a thugs inflicting harm on others, when you for what ever reason happen to have a katana (the real deal with a live blade) in your possession?  Does that put one on a par  with or even lower than said thugs/hoodlums?

Is it wrong to want to fight injustic and violence being inflicted on others with violence in return?  If it is justifiable taking out some thug who's beating on an innocent (or yourself) with a good left hook, is it then unacceptable to want to end a situation by means of a weapon against those already subjecting others to harm through the use of weapons?

It's hard to know what the mysterious plastic/tin foil samurai sword weilding hero's agenda was - if he was another crim with no good intentions, why would he jump into the fray to help the cops?


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## Bigshadow (May 6, 2008)

Slow down John Wayne.... 



Zero said:


> Is it so wrong to wish for the opportunity of coming across a group a thugs inflicting harm on others, when you for what ever reason happen to have a katana (the real deal with a live blade) in your possession?



Yes it is wrong to pine for it.  



Zero said:


> Does that put one on a par  with or even lower than said thugs/hoodlums?



Yes, if your intentions are no more righteous (not religious) than theirs was.  Ego and vengeance fouls up many people and can cause more harm to self than good.




Zero said:


> Is it wrong to want to fight injustic and violence being inflicted on others with violence in return?



Yes "if it is a WANT and not a need".  It is OK to use violence, if that is what it takes.


All in my opinion.


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