# shinto shrines and christians



## spatulahunter (Sep 19, 2004)

Alot of dojos have shrines with system founders/masters and sometimes shinto shrines.Bowing to a shrine such as this could cause a christian to feel that they were paying homage to a false idol. It made me wonder if this is enough to keep christians out of certain martial arts classes? 
At our daito ryu school there are actually christian symbols because the leaders of our branch of daito ryu were christian.
I am catholic (although im not exactly practicing) and i would take no offense to  bowing to a shinto shrine because i would feel that i was paying homage to a great master and respecting his wishes (and i am not condemning of other religions).
What do you guys think?


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## AaronLucia (Sep 19, 2004)

I think alot of it depends on how much the instructor does. My main instructor doesn't really do any spiritual stuff, just physical.

At the beginning of class we ask for enlightenment of what we do in class. If you think that is leading you in the wrong path, then just pray to the Lord to help you in your training.


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## AnimEdge (Sep 19, 2004)

Mine just does physical stuff as well, suppably though our over all master guy, bussey changed our uh ninjutsu to include chrstian stuff, im cristian and i dont really care eather way


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2004)

the rei has no religious connotations......it is merely a salutation like a salute, to show respect. in most cases i think it is improper to refer to the "shrine" at the front of the class as "kamiza" or "shinza".......because most schools dont have a "spiritual" leader,  a better term would be "tokonoma"
but again, its not about bowing to a false idol or god, it is merely a salute to those that have gone before you.

shawn


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 19, 2004)

I have not been asked to bow to a shinto shrine, but I don't think that would be a problem - as already said, it would be a sign of respect to the founder.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 19, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> the rei has no religious connotations......it is merely a salutation like a salute, to show respect. in most cases i think it is improper to refer to the "shrine" at the front of the class as "kamiza" or "shinza".......because most schools dont have a "spiritual" leader,  a better term would be "tokonoma"
> but again, its not about bowing to a false idol or god, it is merely a salute to those that have gone before you.
> 
> shawn



could you go a little farther to explain the terms that you suggested because im not sure what they mean


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## BlackCatBonz (Sep 19, 2004)

*Tokonoma is an alcove in a traditional Japanese room (washitsu). It is about the size of one, or half a tatami mat, and a step higher than the rest of the room. It is the place to display kakejiku (hanging scrolls), ikebana (flower arrangements), and other art.  It is customary to change the art with the seasons, or to choose it for a specific guest. 

As a feature of the Shoin-zukuri (Shoin architectural style) in the Kamakura period (1192-1333), the tokonoma was developed from butsudan (the private altar) in Buddhism. During the Muromachi (1392-1573) and the Azuchi-Momoyama periods (1573-1603), it became a standard built-in feature with a decorative purpose.
*taken from about.japanese.com

kamiza means divine seat, seat of the deity.....it is usually the place of honour in a dojo, there is reishiki to adhere to when entering or leaving the dojo in regards to it. might have a picture of the founder of the system.

shinza is kind of the same as a kamiza

sometimes you might have a butsudan (buddhist shrine) or kamidana (shinto shrine) depending on which religion you may be a part of.

but the tokonoma for some japanese dojo's who want to remain neutral to religion is a better idea.

hope this helps

shawn


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## spatulahunter (Sep 19, 2004)

BlackCatBonz said:
			
		

> *Tokonoma is an alcove in a traditional Japanese room (washitsu). It is about the size of one, or half a tatami mat, and a step higher than the rest of the room. It is the place to display kakejiku (hanging scrolls), ikebana (flower arrangements), and other art.  It is customary to change the art with the seasons, or to choose it for a specific guest.
> 
> As a feature of the Shoin-zukuri (Shoin architectural style) in the Kamakura period (1192-1333), the tokonoma was developed from butsudan (the private altar) in Buddhism. During the Muromachi (1392-1573) and the Azuchi-Momoyama periods (1573-1603), it became a standard built-in feature with a decorative purpose.
> *taken from about.japanese.com
> ...




yeah that was great, really informative, thanks alot


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## Shogun (Sep 20, 2004)

I am shinto and train Aiki at a shinto shrine so it is fine. The Aiki practice of Furitama no gyo (soul shaking) is an invocation of the Kami into the Harae, but Sensei often describes it to christians as a simple exercise, designed to "wake up" the center. No shinto in doing that.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 20, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I am shinto and train Aiki at a shinto shrine so it is fine. The Aiki practice of Furitama no gyo (soul shaking) is an invocation of the Kami into the Harae, but Sensei often describes it to christians as a simple exercise, designed to "wake up" the center. No shinto in doing that.



wow, i dont really know too much about shinto. Would you mind explaining some of the basics and principles?


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## Jeff Boler (Sep 20, 2004)

There are plenty of closed-minded christians who will tell you that such an activity is "improper."  (There are also enough fanatics that will tell you that is satanic.)  Personally, I'm confortable enough in my religious beliefs, that I could do this with no problem.  But then again, I RESPECT the religious beliefs of others.  I will show them the same respect I would expect if they were to walk in my church sanctuary.

I think the whole religious thing is getting crazy right now.  Believe in God (whichever god you believe in), do good things, let God take care of the rest.


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## Aikikitty (Sep 21, 2004)

My mom and I are devoted Christians and when we first started Aikido over 4 years ago, we were worried if we'd have to do any weird bowing/meditation stuff.  We had never done a martial art before and we _just didn't know what to expect._ Our minds were put at ease quickly because the "meditation" was just some deep slow breathing to relax before and after class.  Sometimes I'll actually silently pray when I'm doing that.  We do have a Kamiza in our dojo with a picture of O Sensei on it which we bow to but that's just to show respect---just like how I bow to my senseis and fellow students to show respect.  There are other people I know of in my church who practice other types of Martial Arts and they have no problems with it either.

Robyn  :asian:


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## Feisty Mouse (Sep 21, 2004)

> Personally, I'm confortable enough in my religious beliefs, that I could do this with no problem. But then again, I RESPECT the religious beliefs of others. I will show them the same respect I would expect if they were to walk in my church sanctuary.


 I think that says it all - or near enough!


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## Shogun (Sep 21, 2004)

> wow, i dont really know too much about shinto. Would you mind explaining some of the basics and principles?


I could give you some info, but if you visit the shrine website, you'd get a lot more info. www.tsubakishrine.com
If you have any questions, I'm here


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## spatulahunter (Sep 21, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> I could give you some info, but if you visit the shrine website, you'd get a lot more info. www.tsubakishrine.com
> If you have any questions, I'm here


actually i already did after i posted the question i saw your signature and went to the site, i accidently clicked on the japanese language icon at first though eheh, my computer didnt do well with that, lots of question marks and weird symbols


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## Shogun (Sep 22, 2004)

> lots of question marks and weird symbols


No language package huh? yeah, it happens. Its the USA branch. see anything you like? anyone can stop by the shrine. Sensei is great, in fact, he even has an Uchi deshi program.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 22, 2004)

Jeff Boler said:
			
		

> There are plenty of closed-minded christians who will tell you that such an activity is "improper."  (There are also enough fanatics that will tell you that is satanic.)  Personally, I'm confortable enough in my religious beliefs, that I could do this with no problem.  But then again, I RESPECT the religious beliefs of others.  I will show them the same respect I would expect if they were to walk in my church sanctuary.
> 
> I think the whole religious thing is getting crazy right now.  Believe in God (whichever god you believe in), do good things, let God take care of the rest.



I agree... I dont think God ever told me not to be respectful of my Elders.


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## spatulahunter (Sep 24, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> No language package huh? yeah, it happens. Its the USA branch. see anything you like? anyone can stop by the shrine. Sensei is great, in fact, he even has an Uchi deshi program.



i would love to stop by if that was possible, sadly due to the fact that i live in michigan it would be very hard


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## KenpoNoChikara (Sep 27, 2004)

I have a christian background, and I never had a problem with bowing. It's just showing respect to the master, etc, which I believe we should all have 

Respectfully, kenponochikara


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## The Prof (Jan 10, 2005)

For many years I have battled the bow no bow thing with many faiths, but mostly the Christian faith. 

I know several Christian families that would not let their children see the Ninja Turtle movies because "it has Asian Spiritual mysticism?" 

I tried to explain that the bow in their culture the bow is the equivalent to a respectful handshake, but they would not hear any of it.

In our system, its bow or bye- bye. No debate, no discussion. You are 100% right, it is nothing more than paying respect. But when you think of it, respect is hard for for some people to give.

Blessings,

The Prof


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## spatulahunter (Jan 11, 2005)

The Prof said:
			
		

> I know several Christian families that would not let their children see the Ninja Turtle movies because "it has Asian Spiritual mysticism?"



that is sad. God loves his ninja turtles and doesnt want any good christian child to go without them.


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## The Prof (Jan 16, 2005)

spatulahunter said:
			
		

> that is sad. God loves his ninja turtles and doesnt want any good christian child to go without them.


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