# Kimura Masahiko MMA before the 199Os and in Japan?



## JohnEdward (Aug 30, 2011)

I have been looking for this video for a while, I see it prior to YouTube, but at the time didn't know who was fighting. Then I came across it. If anyone thinks BJJ and MMA didn't exist prior to 1990, and wasn't in Japan look at this. Enjoy. 






Now I believe since I don't know everything, despite thinking I do, I think Kimura Masashiko is a figured known to BJJ.


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## frank raud (Aug 31, 2011)

Kimura was a famed judoka who fought Helio Gracie. He also fought as a professional wrestler, which is what is shown in the youtube clip you have provided. What is it you are seeing that makes you think this is MMA or BJJ?


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## JohnEdward (Aug 31, 2011)

All the elements are there that we define  in the UFC and the other venues.  Many believe that what we see and are accustom as a result of the Gracies in the UFC and in the Brazilian venue, and the post-Gracie UFC and other venues didn't exist prior to what the Gracies did in Brazil and in the US.  Many people have not see anything prior to that.  Here we are lucky to see a MMA match that predates Gracie venues that uses jujutsu, and striking. It isn't pro wrestling, it is real.


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## frank raud (Aug 31, 2011)

The film clip you show is a match between Kimura and Rikidozan  



  and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtwqmU2eV6M&feature=related  It was a pro wrestling match that Rikidozan decided to make legit. From Wikipedia "  _In November 1951, I founded Kokusai Pro Wrestling Association. After I came back from US doing pro wrestling matches, I did pro wrestling shows throughout Japan. In those days, Rikidozan also started a new organization called Japan Pro Wrestling Association. So, mass media started to talk about Kimura vs Rikidozan match. I met with Rikidozan and asked his opinion. He said, "That is a good idea. We will be able to build a fortune. Let's do it!" The 1st bout was going to be a draw. The winner of the 2nd will be determined by the winner of a paper-scissors-stone. After the 2nd match, we will repeat this process. We came to an agreement on this condition. As for the content of the match, Rikidozan will let me throw him, and I will let him strike me with a chop. We then rehearsed karate chop and throws. However, once the bout started, Rikidozan became taken by greed for big money and fame. He lost his mind and became a mad man. When I saw him raise his hand, I opened my arms to invite the chop. He delivered the chop, not to my chest, but to my neck with full force. I fell to the mat. He then kicked me. Neck arteries are so vulnerable that it did not need to be Rikidozan to cause a knock down. A junior high school kid could inflict a knock down this way. I could not forgive his treachery. That night, I received a phone call informing me that several ten yakuza are on their way to Tokyo to kill Rikidozan._ _"[SUP][6]


So we have a pre-arranged fight between two professional wrestlers, one of whom decides to fight for real. Can you explain to me again how this is MMA or BJJ?[/SUP]_


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## JohnEdward (Aug 31, 2011)

I think there is no need to continue.


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## frank raud (Sep 6, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> I have been looking for this video for a while, I see it prior to YouTube, but at the time didn't know who was fighting. Then I came across it. If anyone thinks BJJ and MMA didn't exist prior to 1990, and wasn't in Japan look at this. Enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




BJJ? Kimura, according to wikipedia  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masahiko_Kimura is considered a pioneer of Judo, who later became a professional wrestler, as shown on this video clip.
BJJ? Rikidozan, according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rikid%C5%8Dzan was a sumo wrestler of note, who later became a professional wrestler, as shown in this video clip.

Can you please explain how these two men, with extensive backgrounds in the martial arts, , yet no known rank or training in Brazillian Jiu jitsu, happen to be doing BJJ in a professional wrestling arena?

If you want an example of MMA prior to North America's exposure to the UFC in 1993, you could look at Shooto http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooto which was started in 1985.

Now if you could explain how two professional wrestlers happen to be doing MMA, I would like very much to hear it.


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## frank raud (Sep 6, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> All the elements are there that we define in the UFC and the other venues. Many believe that what we see and are accustom as a result of the Gracies in the UFC and in the Brazilian venue, and the post-Gracie UFC and other venues didn't exist prior to what the Gracies did in Brazil and in the US. Many people have not see anything prior to that. Here we are lucky to see a MMA match that predates Gracie venues that uses jujutsu, and striking. It isn't pro wrestling, it is real.



Are you aware that Kimura fought Helio Gracie in 1951, several years before this video clip was made?


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## JohnEdward (Sep 6, 2011)

Yes,I am aware, of  that public entertainment sport event/spectacle, having all the major elements of any professional fight of those days, be it sumo, boxing and pro-wrestling; paid professional fighters, in a designated space for the fighters, a paying audience, promoters, billing, publicity,  a referee, and TV cameras.  Am betting your going to tell me the professional sports entertainment event is a (and I quote you) "separate, recognized, and distinct" thing, apart from any professional fight. As you also argue here in the above post, the Japanese fight I posted wasn't MMA it was pro-wrestling. Since I know where going with this. I understand our differences. I don't need to say anything more than that, or continue along this line of discussion.


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## frank raud (Sep 6, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> Yes,I am aware, of that public entertainment sport event/spectacle, having all the major elements of any professional fight of those days, be it sumo, boxing and pro-wrestling; paid professional fighters, in a designated space for the fighters, a paying audience, promoters, billing, publicity, a referee, and TV cameras. Am betting your going to tell me the professional sports entertainment event is a (and I quote you) "separate, recognized, and distinct" thing, apart from any professional fight. As you also argue here in the above post, the Japanese fight I posted wasn't MMA it was pro-wrestling. Since I know where going with this. I understand our differences. I don't need to say anything more than that, or continue along this line of discussion.



I don't argue the match is pro wrestling, I pointed it out,you argued against it, as you had it confused with MMA and BJJ. Nothing I have pointed out on this thread took more than a minute of google fu to find out, so this is not exotic, rare or hidden information. One would assume after 20 years in a Japanese art that one could recognize similar yet different arts. Or that one could point out what elements of the video led you to believe it was BJJ and MMA. This seems to be a major challenge.


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## JohnEdward (Sep 6, 2011)

I have lived long enough to know those that live by the dictionary are still very young and inexperienced, or really wound up uncomfortable with flexibility needing absolutes.  I offer them this.  

MMA -an acronym for the generic term of mixed martial arts coined termed by an announcer to describe to the viewers what they where watching, previously called no-holds barred fighting.
BJJ -Judo nawaza interpreted by the Brazilian Gracie family as taught to them (directly or indirectly) by Mitsuyo Maeda.  

Both MMA and BJJ are often used loosely and interchangeably to describe fighting methods, and styles, fighting venues, techniques, etc. that call into both categories. Both MMA and BJJ are living martial arts that are and have been changing and developing.


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## frank raud (Sep 6, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> I have lived long enough to know those that live by the dictionary are still very young and inexperienced, or really wound up uncomfortable with flexibility needing absolutes. I offer them this.
> 
> MMA -an acronym for the generic term of mixed martial arts coined termed by an announcer to describe to the viewers what they where watching, previously called no-holds barred fighting.
> BJJ -Judo nawaza interpreted by the Brazilian Gracie family as taught to them (directly or indirectly) by Mitsuyo Maeda.
> ...



In my half century of living, with over a quarter century of martial arts experience, I have learned that those who are incapable of figuring out the difference between pro wrestling and actual, legitimate martial arts when it is presented to them, with citations and film clips as backup, could use a lesson in grasping the obvious.


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## JohnEdward (Sep 6, 2011)

Defining changing and developing: take, modify, create etc. adding to; offensive or defensive technical grappling, or non-grappling maneuvers for the use in a sports venue.

The term No-holds-barred dates at least 2 centuries back, as does catch-as-catch-can and other old synonyms for little or no rule fights.  MMA and BJJ have over the years incorporated a great deal of rules. Therefore, term the current MMA and BJJ fights as No-holds-barred or alike is inaccurate, based on the number of rules in which No-holds-barred implies, no rules or restrictions.  

Holds originates from the term wrestling. And the phrase No-holds-Barred contemporarily usage has been long used in pro-wrestling.  The earliest term _N__o holds barred_ is from Manitoba Daily Free Press, February 1892:_*"Wm. Gibbs, the Kansas man, and Dennis Gallacher, of Buffalo, engaged in a wrestling match at the opera house here tonight. Gibbs was strangled into insensibility and may die. The conditions of the match were best two in three falls Greco-Roman style; no holds barred."*_


You see if you really want to get technical BJJ venue at here in the US was billed and seen as a no-holds-barred event, MMA which came out of the BJJ venue, was also called No-holds-barred.  Which no-holds-barred refers to wrestling.  This promoted that announcer watching fighters using different forms of martial arts fight against BJJ standing up to call it MMA.  BJJ philosophy was to fight on the ground, um...wrestle? 

*Wresting defined* as, ctivity of grappling with an opponent and trying to throw or hold them down on the ground, typically according to a code of rules.
Just for kicks and giggles- Pro is defined by being paid for what you do. In relation to what am saying, Pro Football players are those who get paid for playing the game/doing battle. 

You live long enough you see that nothing really changes no matter what new term is used, or how it is pigeoned holed into something.  A fight is a fight, it is either with or without rules. No matter how you want to dissect it, or promote it.​


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## JohnEdward (Sep 6, 2011)

In the words of Monty Python per parts of the discussion, "it's silly!"


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## Cyriacus (Sep 6, 2011)

JohnEdward said:


> I have lived long enough to know those that live by the dictionary are still very young and inexperienced, or really wound up uncomfortable with flexibility needing absolutes.  I offer them this.
> *
> MMA -an acronym for the generic term of mixed martial arts coined termed by an announcer to describe to the viewers what they where watching, previously called no-holds barred fighting.*
> BJJ -Judo nawaza interpreted by the Brazilian Gracie family as taught to them (directly or indirectly) by Mitsuyo Maeda.
> ...



I have this recollection of someone proceeding to tell me, as though I couldnt possibly have already known, that MMA was a Sport unto itself, when I tried to say this.
I love these Conversations!

On-Topic;
It is True certainly, that things Change to no Small Extent over Time. And Modern Standards can be Hard to Apply to them. For Example, the Referee didnt look very Phased.


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