# Xu Xiaodong



## Tames D (Jul 19, 2017)

Video: Wing Chun vs. Karate street fight ends in KO


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## KPM (Jul 19, 2017)

Anyone recognize that Wing Chun?


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## wckf92 (Jul 19, 2017)

KPM said:


> Anyone recognize that Wing Chun?



sweep the leg johnny...sweep the leg


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## karatejj (Jul 19, 2017)

Little guy lozes vs 2x size guy :-/

Who knew?


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## Tames D (Jul 19, 2017)

Size matters


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 19, 2017)

Oh my that was horrible.   Sparring really says a lot about one's training.  Wing Chun guy better find a better skilled opponent before he tackles the MMA guy.


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## VPT (Jul 20, 2017)

Ugh...

The Flores guy is a teacher of a certain Vietnamese Wing Chun branch, which seems to have strayed very far from the original principles. The Vietnamese lineages all seem to be very different even compared to each other and sometimes even awkward-looking to the standard YM WC practicioner.

(Flores' lineage: Yuan Chai Wan -> Ho Hai Long -> Nam Anh -> Flores)

I think Flores is an egoistic ******* with lots of balls and little skill. Here's a video of him getting his face slapped by an Hanoi lineage guy. I think it tells everything:


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## Lobo66 (Jul 20, 2017)

Here is an old clip of one of my students sparring against two guys from the local MMA school.
His two opponents participate regularly in pancrase competitions and one (the guy with no shirt) was even national champion in his weight class.

This type of training really brings something.  The OP video is just a joke.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10205459715308979


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## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

Good stuff!  Thanks Sean!  And I noted that this clip looked a bit different than your previous clip.  No high covers.  No ducking and weaving.  More "pure" WSLVT, if there is such a thing.


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## geezer (Jul 20, 2017)

That was a good clip! If there's an interest in promoting WSL-VT, _that's_ the way to do it, not by spouting off like an arrogant a$$ (as _some_ folks tend to do) . In response to KPM's comment about it being more like "pure" VT/WC, I see his point, but I'd also point out the good use of sprawling (not really traditional VT/WC) when the other, non-VT fighter shoots in. FWIW I _like_ that. Functionality is, after all, the bottom line --right?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2017)

VPT said:


> Ugh...
> 
> The Flores guy is a teacher of a certain Vietnamese Wing Chun branch, which seems to have strayed very far from the original principles. The Vietnamese lineages all seem to be very different even compared to each other and sometimes even awkward-looking to the standard YM WC practicioner.
> 
> ...


Nice lol.   people really should train to fight before challenging others. Maybe then they will see no need to challenge.


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## wckf92 (Jul 20, 2017)

is the guy in Lobo66 video a WSLVT guy? I saw him do some things that are not consistent with what I've read from LFJ. I don't know if this guy trains with PB or MK?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Here is an old clip of one of my students sparring against two guys from the local MMA school.
> His two opponents participate regularly in pancrase competitions and one (the guy with no shirt) was even national champion in his weight class.
> 
> This type of training really brings something.  The OP video is just a joke.
> ...


Much better than the OP video of Wing Chun.  There was none of the fancy "fake me out" movements.  Very practical with every motion serving a purpose.  I know it's an old video, but on the last shoot, when the Wing Chun guy didn't escape, It may have been possible for him to not have been on his back if he just putt all of his weight on the his opponents back by leaning forward onto his opponent once his opponent had his legs.   It looks like he tried an under hook, but it got caught under his own leg.  It was too late at that point.  Either way. that was a good representation of Wing Chun (by representation I mean someone actually use it)


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## yak sao (Jul 20, 2017)

geezer said:


> ...I'd also point out the good use of sprawling (not really traditional VT/WC) when the other, non-VT fighter shoots in. FWIW I _like_ that. Functionality is, after all, the bottom line --right?



if someone is attacking under my arm, I would most likely respond with a jum sau and possibly a pivot or step to push myself away from them to maintain my space.
Using a sprawl is much the same thing, only our whole body is jum sau as we push ourselves away


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## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> is the guy in Lobo66 video a WSLVT guy? I saw him do some things that are not consistent with what I've read from LFJ. I don't know if this guy trains with PB or MK?



Sean stated that the guy in the video is his student.  So yes, WSLVT.   But I don't know whether Sean studied with PB or MK.


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## wckf92 (Jul 20, 2017)

KPM said:


> Sean stated that the guy in the video is his student.  So yes, WSLVT.   But I don't know whether Sean studied with PB or MK.



I'd be interested to learn if that student came to Sean from another style of WC/VT...


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## Lobo66 (Jul 20, 2017)

Hey guys,
No, that student didn't come to me from another style of WC.  His only other experience in martial arts comes from judo (historically very popular here in France) and the workshops in grappling and ground fighting that we've organized with Tim Cartmell.

I myself studied (study) Ving Tsun with Michael Kurth.


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## KPM (Jul 20, 2017)

I did a seminar with Tim Cartmell many many years ago.  Good guy!  A friend of mine has studied Ba Gua and Hsing I with him as well as BJJ.


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## wckf92 (Jul 20, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Hey guys,
> No, that student didn't come to me from another style of WC.  His only other experience in martial arts comes from judo (historically very popular here in France) and the workshops in grappling and ground fighting that we've organized with Tim Cartmell.
> 
> I myself studied (study) Ving Tsun with Michael Kurth.



Ok. Cool. Thx for the info. 
The reason I am asking is that, from what I've read on forums about WSLVT/PB etc ... you guys are taught to just punch and that the punch arm functions as two limbs with offense and defense contained within it. One beat. 
I've also read / learned that you use things like pak and jut and bong to 'clear the way'. I.E... one of your punches gets jammed up somehow, you then cycle the Wu forward to pak/jut/bong the obstruction out of the way so you can return to the main weapon ie punching. 
LFJ has said that to pak first, then immediately follow it with the punch is putting the cart before the horse. 
In the first 30 seconds or so...the VT guy does a pak then punch's through the cleared line. 
Would that be considered a mistake on his part? 
Thanks in advance for any feedback...


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## Lobo66 (Jul 20, 2017)

@KPM 
Tim is simply awesome.  The only person I've met who has really used his xing yi, ba gua and tai ji in full contact mma competitions....and won!  His grappling and BJJ is also out of this world.  If any of you guys are out near Huntington Beach, go check him out for sure!

@wckf92 
He's using pak/da to counter the punch.  This we do not consider a mistake.  It's one of many options.  Initiating a pak from the rear hand against a static opponent would be a mistake (If I'm in wu/man sau with my left arm forward and I have contact with the outside of my opponent's left arm, initiating a pak sau with my right hand would be considered a mistake).


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## wckf92 (Jul 20, 2017)

@wckf92
He's using pak/da to counter the punch.  This we do not consider a mistake.  It's one of many options.  Initiating a pak from the rear hand against a static opponent would be a mistake (If I'm in wu/man sau with my left arm forward and I have contact with the outside of my opponent's left arm, initiating a pak sau with my right hand would be considered a mistake).[/QUOTE]

Thank you for clarifying. 
Perhaps I've misunderstood the WSL VT guys; or, maybe MK VT differs from the PB guys...
Thx


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 20, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Here is an old clip of one of my students sparring against two guys from the local MMA school.
> His two opponents participate regularly in pancrase competitions and one (the guy with no shirt) was even national champion in his weight class.
> 
> This type of training really brings something.  The OP video is just a joke.
> ...


I forgot to say, that he is the only Wing Chun person that I've seen in free sparring that didn't try to punch his way out of a shoot.  I was so happy to just see that.


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## Lobo66 (Jul 21, 2017)

@JowGaWolf 
Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot.  At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.  

I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control.  Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps.  But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl.  If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> @JowGaWolf
> Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot.  At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.
> 
> I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control.  Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps.  But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl.  If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.


Well.. It's a good thing he listens to you lol.


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## JR 137 (Jul 21, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> @JowGaWolf
> Lol I did have to remind him to sprawl against the first shot.  At first he started to hit the back of the head of his sparring partner which is 1) not effective and 2) against the rules of the competition he was training for.
> 
> I teach my students that good takedown defense starts with good footwork, body positioning and distance control.  Keeping your elbows in and knowing how to frame (using laan sau, for example) and lower your level also helps.  But when you gotta sprawl you gotta sprawl.  If you fudge that try at least to put the guy into your guard and work from there.


I commend you for not teaching the "anti-grappling" nonsense I've seen too many times.

And it's great to see your guy can take a punch and keep going.  Too many of those "challenge" videos have a guy beaten pretty badly simply because they couldn't handle being pressured and hit; they get overwhelmed by it and trip up over their own feet.  He stands his ground nicely.


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## Lobo66 (Jul 21, 2017)

You're right, we see that all too often in challenge/sparring matches involving WC people or (as in the OP) people from the "internal" martial arts.  An utter lack of training involving pressure testing their skills means that they are just setting themselves up for failure.  Once they get hit their whole world crumbles. 

My philosophy is, if you're going to learn how to deal with grappling then you should start by learning some grappling...from a professional.


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## geezer (Jul 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I commend you for not teaching the "anti-grappling" nonsense I've seen too many times.



For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?

From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and _escape_ from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is_ the objective,_ not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler _proceeds to establish control_ on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to _escape_ and return to striking mode..

To that end, against a common shoot WC/VT _typically_ teaches:

1. Moving off-line, protecting the legs, and using head control with forward pressure (jum, jut or gum-sau) to stuff the shoot,

2. Again using off-lining to get the legs back and forward pressure in the chain punching to stuff and deflect the shoot. (Jow Ga referred to this tactic).

3. When the opponent shoots and catches one or both of your legs, raining vertical elbows down on his back (good luck with that!) Actually, it does work quite well in staged demos against a horizontal, tackle-like take-down with no forward intent or follow through ...but then so will standing still and eating a sandwich. Which I would actually prefer. ...Must be lunchtime. 

4. A simple sprawl, cross-face and pivot behind to gain control or return to stand-up position.

Of the above, numbers 1 and 2 _can_ work, especially against a clumsy shoot by an inexperienced attacker ...someone who doesn't set up their shoot well, attacks tentatively or from too far away, doesn't shoot in deep and follow through, etc. In fact, against such an attack, these responses may be preferable to a grappler's sprawl, since they leave you in a good position to do what you do best, i.e. striking.

On the other hand, against a_ competent _shoot, I'd go straight to the sprawl. I learned how to do it wrestling as a kid, it's a natural response for me, and it's a high percentage move. And, even though it's not in some WC/VT/WT "anti-grappling" programs, it should be!

Allow me to illustrate, guys. Here's _Sean Obasi_ who _should_ know a little about takedown defense demonstrating using a downward palm or gum-sau to defend against a shoot.

Pay close attention to the crappy quality of the shoot -- the distancing, the horizontal orientation of the shooter's back, the shallow penetration, and the total lack of forward intent and follow though which enables Obasi to stay in a narrow upright stance and drop his palm on the back of the shooter's head (check at 0:10):






Now here's the _very first _youtube clip that came up when I did a search for "double-leg takedown." Just good, competent wrestling. Check out the shooter's body position at about 0:33 - 0:45  as he drives deep through his attackers legs. Notice his upright posture, and tell me how in hell you could stop that at _full speed and power_ with a _jum_ or a _gum sau_ on his head!


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Once they get hit their whole world crumbles.


Very true.  That does seem to be the trade mark of many of these fights.  They get hit; and after that hit, they are lost.  To be honest the hits that crumbles their world, aren't the strongest of hits.


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## Lobo66 (Jul 21, 2017)

Sprawling is really a worst case scenario.   With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt.  That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl.  Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?
> 
> From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and _escape_ from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is_ the objective,_ not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler _proceeds to establish control_ on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to _escape_ and return to striking mode..
> 
> ...


There's my brother in the video (the black guy).   Yeah anyone that knows how to do a proper shoot will void all of that "martial art punch em when they go for your legs solutions."  If they have your legs then they will try to uproot their opponent.  They practice uprooting people more than many martial artist practice uprooting, so they are really good at it.  Once the root is gone then everything related to striking is gone.  Once the body feels that it is losing balance, it will override all of that martial art stuff and make regaining balance priority #1.  The only way to deal with stuff like that is to protect the root and if possible, don't stand in a way that makes it easy for a person to initiate a shoot.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Sprawling is really a worst case scenario.   With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt.  That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl.  Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :


I understand what the concept, I just would like to see if he could have pulled it off as he was demonstrating.  They should have thrown a few rounds of punches and then surprise shoot.  Not sure if Shane is the right person to use though.  The things I really like is that he put weight on the top part of Shanes back with causes an improper lift.  Even if Shane was successful with getting one of the legs, lifting up 150+ pounds on the end of the back like that will F-up the back.

The sprawl may not have been necessary because of how Shane was shooting.  It might have been possible just twist Shane out of the shoot.  Either way good stuff simply because the techniques make an effort to protect the root, places dead weight on top of the opponent, and uses the concept of redirecting. All of that stuff works.  I'm with you on the Sprawl.  Learning how to sprawl is a fail safe.  Sometimes my timing can be off to do anything else but sprawl.  I also like what he said about not liking the sprawl where you put your hips forward into the shoot. My preference is not to meet a shoot with head on force.


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## JR 137 (Jul 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> For the record, which "anti-grappling" nonsense?
> 
> From my perspective, "anti-grappling" is simply rudimentary movements to defend and _escape_ from a shoot, throw, or ground position and return to your standup, striking game. So really, the only difference between "anti-grappling" and rudimentary grappling is_ the objective,_ not the means. Both are grappling. But whereas the grappler _proceeds to establish control_ on the ground, the "anti-grappler" seeks to _escape_ and return to striking mode..
> 
> ...



The "anti-grappling nonsense" like you showed in your 1st video.  Like you said, against full speed and power shooting and competent shooting, that doesn't have a chance to work.

I wrestled from 3rd grade through high school.  I coached on and off for 10 years.  Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the video you posted (as an example of what's wrong) doesn't have a chance.

I was commending Lobo66 for not falling into that pattern with his guy(s).


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## geezer (Jul 21, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I also like what he said about not liking the sprawl where you put your hips forward into the shoot. My preference is not to meet a shoot with head on force.



Yeah, I like that part too. The way he rolled his hip with the direction of the shoot to deflect force rather than oppose it seemed very Wing Chun-like in principle. Maybe Jow Ga-like too, if you can apply the principles to grappling.

BTW, @Jow Ga -- did you mean that the black guy in the wrestling clip I found was your actual, biological brother? What are the odds of that?!


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## JR 137 (Jul 21, 2017)

Lobo66 said:


> Sprawling is really a worst case scenario.   With experience I do think you will able to use footwork and positioning/angling coupled with effective striking to discourage the clinch and/or takedown attempt.  That being said, you still need to learn how to sprawl.  Here's a good little clip of Firis Zahabi sharing his views on the subject :


It's impossible to agree and like the same post, so I went with agree.  That being said...

Finally!!! Someone else teaches it the way I instinctually did it, and the way I taught it to my wrestlers after they had sprawling effectively down.

One thing I wish he talked about was the overhook (aka whizzer) he had every time.  It would've been perfect if he said lean your weight into that overhook, forcing the opponent to flatten out.  If they don't flatten out on their stomach, they'll get a dislocated shoulder.  Once they're flat, in a non-wrestling context, they're completely done.  Feel free to choke from the back, launch punches to the kidneys, or whatever floats your boat.

But absolutely - learn to sprawl first.  Using the angled sprawl (as I like to call it) is all about timing. A split second to late and it won't work.

Sorry, I was THE coach on our staff when we practiced shooting defense.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

geezer said:


> Yeah, I like that part too. The way he rolled his hip with the direction of the shoot to deflect force rather than oppose it seemed very Wing Chun-like in principle. Maybe Jow Ga-like too, if you can apply the principles to grappling.
> 
> BTW, @Jow Ga -- did you mean that the black guy in the wrestling clip I found was your actual, biological brother? What are the odds of that?!


Yeah that's actually my biological brother lol.  He's my younger brother but I look up to him in many ways.  He's better with people than I am.  I'm more of a loner but I try to be a little like him since being a loner can be unhealthy.  He's like a rockstar at the high school where he works and he has lots of good friends as well as people who think well about him.  He does wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai.  His coach just became world champion in an MMA organization.  It's not the UFC, but I can't remember off the top of my head.  His coach is now practically a legend in Malaysia.

In Jow Ga we have both "hard and soft" techniques so if we don't have stop the force then we'll yield to it and let it pass.  But for use the first thing is to save the root, remain in control of the impact and then give way to the direction of the force.  In my experience a shoot never really lands straight on, unless a person is caught sleeping.  Usually when a person shoots on someone one, there is more pressure on one side than the other.  The key is to recognize that force at the same time I try to restore my root and then let the rest of the force from the shoot to flow by. It's better for me to let my opponent stumble by than for me to help him to remain standing by holding up the force from his shoot.  I'm not a ground fighter, or ground grappler so I don't play that game. lol.  

See :55 it's almost exactly like the video except it's higher up.  Another rule to my shoot defense is to only give up one leg.  Avoid double leg take downs as much as possible. This is where stance comes into play.   He ducked under my hook and went for the take down, which is usually how these things happen.  Punching stance is probably similar to Wing Chun meaning one leg forward and one leg back.  That' the only thing that kept me safe from a double leg. The impact from the shoot buckles my leg because I don't try to meet stuff like that with force.  It's best to let that leg relax and let the force flow through the leg.  Sometimes trying to keep that leg rooted causes more harm than good.  It didn't take much to regain balance because I was leaning on my opponent.  You can play the video in slow motion an you'll see that I have a similar lean to what was shown in the sprawl video.  If you pause the video you can actually see that he's off balance when he goes pass me.  me hooking under his arm keeps him from hooking my arm.  It seems like a lot think about but it really isn't.  The body picks up a lot of sensory information so there's really no thinking and it happens quick.  I'm not sure how things would have been if the guy as better at shooting.  





For others who may not be familiar.  Keeping or restoring one's root doesn't mean trying to stay in one place like a tree that doesn't move.  It simply means moving your feet and repositioning the body so that your opponent can no longer use the initial force to easily uproot you.  For example, stepping off center or moving with the force of the impact or at an angle to the force of the angle.  In short, I need to have control of my footing and movement.  I'm useless if I'm stumbling around. If someone shoots on me. I put my weight on them which not only makes a bad lift for them, but it also gives me support.  It's like using their body as a senior citizen walker which in turns makes it easier for me to regain balance.

See 1:02.  I allow my opponent to shoot in on me, so I could attempt a hidden sweep.  He had a nice wide stance when he came in and that saved his butt.  You can see that my sweep lands but his wide stance saved him. The sweep was still enough to disrupt his shoot and to allow me to escape. You can actually see that he had a single leg takedown, but he missed it because the sweep disrupted his balance.   When the body is out of balance everything else takes a back seat to Priority #1 which is to regain balance.  It was just enough time for my leg to easily escape.  Instead of me going back directly into my opponent I towards him at an angle.  It starts that circular spin similar to what was in the video about sprawling.  This would be the stand up version of that.  Because he's lower and on my side, I knew I could put my weight on him to cause an improper lift by getting my arm around his neck.  When he tries his second take down you can see that he's dealing with my weight and that I'm using him to support my balance and you can see that awkward lift begin to set in.


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## JR 137 (Jul 21, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah that's actually my biological brother lol.  He's my younger brother but I look up to him in many ways.  He's better with people than I am.  I'm more of a loner but I try to be a little like him since being a loner can be unhealthy.  He's like a rockstar at the high school where he works and he has lots of good friends as well as people who think well about him.  He does wrestling, BJJ, and Muay Thai.  His coach just became world champion in an MMA organization.  It's not the UFC, but I can't remember off the top of my head.  His coach is now practically a legend in Malaysia.
> 
> In Jow Ga we have both "hard and soft" techniques so if we don't have stop the force then we'll yield to it and let it pass.  But for use the first thing is to save the root, remain in control of the impact and then give way to the direction of the force.  In my experience a shoot never really lands straight on, unless a person is caught sleeping.  Usually when a person shoots on someone one, there is more pressure on one side than the other.  The key is to recognize that force at the same time I try to restore my root and then let the rest of the force from the shoot to flow by. It's better for me to let my opponent stumble by than for me to help him to remain standing by holding up the force from his shoot.  I'm not a ground fighter, or ground grappler so I don't play that game. lol.
> 
> ...


I always appreciate seeing your takedowns and avoiding takedowns in your videos.

IMO the reason why you're successful with them is your footwork and mechanics (as you elaborated on but put into different words than I do), but just as importantly - your timing.  You recognize it and adjust appropriately right on time.  The few times you almost got caught, your footwork and mechanics saved you, and you readjusted appropriately and on time. 

I've said it several times - you naturally move like a trained wrestler when it comes to avoiding takedowns.  You're putting your center of gravity/mass in the right places according to what your opponent is doing, and on time.  That's the key.

Perhaps mess around and make an instructional video on what you're looking for and how you're moving?


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 21, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I always appreciate seeing your takedowns and avoiding takedowns in your videos.
> 
> IMO the reason why you're successful with them is your footwork and mechanics (as you elaborated on but put into different words than I do), but just as importantly - your timing.  You recognize it and adjust appropriately right on time.  The few times you almost got caught, your footwork and mechanics saved you, and you readjusted appropriately and on time.
> 
> ...


Footwork is a must.  Maybe one day I'll record the footwork exercises. I'm not sure if anyone would be interested in something like that.  Only one seems really strange because it's one that I've kind of done through my life as something just to do.


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## Phobius (Jul 22, 2017)

Exercises are the interesting parts to take from these forums. They are where you can analyze improvements to your own methods and ideas.


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