# Assisting Pedophiles & the Destruction of Childhood



## ArmorOfGod (Oct 25, 2006)

You know, here in the US, I thought the "Baby Bratz" dolls were bad enough.  For those of you without kids, Baby Bratz are dolls sold at every Wal-Mart, Target, and mall, which are dolls of 10 month old babies dressed in leather minskirts, fishnets, lots of makeup, and chains and handcuffs hanging on their belt.

Still, this one takes the cake.  The below link is a link to a story about a stripper pole sold in the United Kingdom by the UK's biggest toy company.  It has a pole, music, and a dvd showing how to pole dance and how to let your 8 year old do a strip tease.

Read this actual quote from the toy maker's website:  

 "Unleash the sex kitten inside...simply extend the Peekaboo pole inside the tube, slip on the sexy tunes and away you go! Soon you'll be flaunting it to the world and earning a fortune in Peekaboo Dance Dollars."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=412195&in_page_id=17

Can you imagine the board room of execs sitting around a table and one says "Hey, I have a great idea--a stipper pole for 8 year olds where they earn pretend money by doing a strip tease.  What do you think, guys?"

I am only 31 years old, but my kid sister played with Strawberry Shortcake, Smurf dolls, the occasional Barbie, and Polly Pocket.  Now, she is 25, so look what people are attempting to do in just the last 15-20 years or so.

Does this blow everyone's mind also?

AoG


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 25, 2006)

Wow, that just doesn't seem right.  A while ago on NPR there was a story about how many companies are using sex to sell to younger and younger consumers.  Everything from music, to games, and now to toys.  They wouldn't do it if more parents just said no to that crap.

Jeff


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 25, 2006)

ArmorOfGod said:


> You know, here in the US, I thought the "Baby Bratz" dolls were bad enough.  For those of you without kids, Baby Bratz are dolls sold at every Wal-Mart, Target, and mall, which are dolls of 10 month old babies dressed in leather minskirts, fishnets, lots of makeup, and chains and handcuffs hanging on their belt.
> 
> Still, this one takes the cake.  The below link is a link to a story about a stripper pole sold in the United Kingdom by the UK's biggest toy company.  It has a pole, music, and a dvd showing how to pole dance and how to let your 8 year old do a strip tease.
> 
> ...




That's just plain gross! What are people thinking? Yes, it blows my mind. Sick, sick, sick. *shakes head*


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## bydand (Oct 25, 2006)

Words fail me!  below anything I have ever seen or heard of directed toward children, in the disquise of a toy or playtime item.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Pole dancing is an increasing exercise craze!!!!

*THIS IS A JUSTIFICATION FOR SELLING IT TO 8 YEAR OLDS!?!?!?!?*

Where are these people? I need to have a private conversation with them.

This really has potential to start me a rantin again


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## Drac (Oct 25, 2006)

I always found the Bratz Dolls disturbing..But this pole dancing for little girls is beyond belief...Words actually fail to describe my outrage...


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

http://www.peekaboo.co.uk/

The company's website.  No kids anywhere, this game is aimed at adults, not 8-year olds.

It's also not the first adult game to have been displayed and sold openly.  SHould it have a "Age: Adult" label?  Yes, does it?  They never specified that.

Should it be getting sold in a childrens section, no.  But board games are generally sold all in one place, for all age groups.  

Not saying this was an appropriate place to market this game, but the reaction doesn't seem to match the action...


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## terryl965 (Oct 25, 2006)

Pole dancing for 8 year old please let me in that board room for 15 minutes and see if I can change there minds


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## Drac (Oct 25, 2006)

terryl965 said:


> Pole dancing for 8 year old please let me in that board room for 15 minutes and see if I can change there minds


 
Can I help???? Please please please???


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Guess I'm cynical of "Media Moral Outrage" articles, but do some investigating.  This product was not aimed at 8 year olds.  Never was.  Just a poor judgement call about where to sell it.

And is it really that different from other things?  8 year old goes to the video game section, and is exposed to seeing Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, etc. for sale.

8 year old goes to the DVD section and is exposed to all sorts of inapropriate movies for his / her age.

Adult game, aimed at adults, placed poorly in the store.  That's all, no big conspirousy to turn kids into strippers.


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 25, 2006)

Mod Note

Thread moved to The Study.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Moderator


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Guess I'm cynical of "Media Moral Outrage" articles, but do some investigating.  This product was not aimed at 8 year olds.  Never was.  Just a poor judgement call about where to sell it.



Andrew, did you see this part of the article?


> Tesco today agreed to remove the product from the Toy section of the site, but said it will remain on sale as a Fitness Accessory, despite the fact that the product description invites users to "unleash the sex kitten inside".*Tesco today agreed to remove the product from the Toy section of the site,* but said it will remain on sale as a Fitness Accessory, despite the fact that the product description invites users to "unleash the sex kitten inside".


So this item was listed in a section of items targeted at children specifically.  Sorry, but I think this is unacceptable.



> And is it really that different from other things?  8 year old goes to the video game section, and is exposed to seeing Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, etc. for sale.
> 
> 8 year old goes to the DVD section and is exposed to all sorts of inapropriate movies for his / her age.


While you have a good point, that all kids can see all sections of the website, the point here, specifically, is that this item was listed in the toys section specifically as were other sexually-oriented games (according to the article)



> Adult game, aimed at adults, placed poorly in the store.  That's all, no big conspirousy to turn kids into strippers.


Unless it were placed there intentionally, which is really the question, is it not? You write code, I've done webpages ... it's not an easy accident to put something like this in the wrong section of a website.


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## DavidCC (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Guess I'm cynical of "Media Moral Outrage" articles, but do some investigating. This product was not aimed at 8 year olds. Never was. Just a poor judgement call about where to sell it.
> 
> And is it really that different from other things? 8 year old goes to the video game section, and is exposed to seeing Grand Theft Auto, Manhunt, etc. for sale.
> 
> ...


 
Party pooper!  indignance is so fun!


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:


> So this item was listed in a section of items targeted at children specifically.  Sorry, but I think this is unacceptable.



Was it?  Or was it listed with all the other board games?  Which technically it is.  Are there other games which target adults in that section?  Lots of stores that sell board games put them all in the same section, not different sections for different age groups.



> Unless it were placed there intentionally, which is really the question, is it not? You write code, I've done webpages ... it's not an easy accident to put something like this in the wrong section of a website.



It's as easy as posting a thread in the wrong section of a forum, which gets done quite regullarly here.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

DavidCC said:


> Party pooper!  indignance is so fun!



Media has it's things it knows are hotspots and will cause outrage if pushed.  And outraged people buy papers and read stories.  Get a good mob behind you is a good way to make money.  ALl made easier by the fact that very few people will bother to actually take the time to do a little poking of there own, just assume the well spun story the paper tells them is true.

Someone goofed up a little, a game meant for adults was seen by kids.  Oh well, problem caught and fixed.  Some minimum wage making data entry clerk probably saw it catagorized as a "game", which is is, and stuck it under "Games" on the website, seems a rather easy mistake to make.


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Was it?  Or was it listed with all the other board games?  Which technically it is.  Are there other games which target adults in that section?  Lots of stores that sell board games put them all in the same section, not different sections for different age groups.


See for yourself:

http://direct.tesco.com/homepage/toysgames.aspx

Yes, you can click around there and find board games geared towards adults ... however the section is titled "Children's Toys and Games" which I think is mislabled if the intention is to put ALL games and toys there - including "sex" games.  



> It's as easy as posting a thread in the wrong section of a forum, which gets done quite regullarly here.


Hm.  Well, you are more geeky than I, admittedly, so perhaps web authoring software has evolved to the point where Joe Schmoe, the sales advertising clerk, can click on a button that says, "Post New Product," fill in a couple of fields, check a couple boxes and "submit new ad," and the product goes onto the wrong page.  Then, of course, QC would have to pass it, but everyone knows there's no QC in on-line webpage submissions.

So it's an error?  I wonder why Tesco didn't say so ....


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:


> See for yourself:
> 
> http://direct.tesco.com/homepage/toysgames.aspx



Is that where it was?

Or was it here:
http://direct.tesco.com/q/N.1999226/Nr.99.aspx

With other adult aimed games, the article in not really all that clear on that.

The article does state: " Tesco last night denied the pole dancing kit was sexually oriented and said it was clearly marked for "adult use"."

So if I had to guess, and that is all anyone here is doing right now, I'd say it wasn't in with the fluffy stuffed animals, but more likely with other games aimed at an adult audience.  Which includes poker sets (gambling), a desperate houswives game (which I am sure I've seen in stores with the board games for other ages), Sex and the City, beer, wine, other gambling, etc.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 25, 2006)

Well it is definately geared towards adults based on the companies website.  Clearly if it was in the children's board game section then that was a *huge oversight*.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

yup, it would have been.  But the article is rather vague on that.  And my guess is that is intentional...  I mean "Kids stumble on pole dancing game in adult games section of website" just doesn't get the readership that "Big Box corporate greed wants to turn 8 year olds into strippers" does it?


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## Ping898 (Oct 25, 2006)

*sigh*...I remember growing up when if you had a pole it mean you were pretending to be a firefighter...not a stripper.....


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Is that where it was?
> 
> Or was it here:
> http://direct.tesco.com/q/N.1999226/Nr.99.aspx



You get to that page by clicking through the games and toys link, which page had the title "Children's toys and games."   I would expect to find games, toys and 'exercise programs' to be found through a separate link from the one for children.  Is that *really* too difficult to see or expect??



> The article does state: " Tesco last night denied the pole dancing kit was sexually oriented and said it was clearly marked for "adult use"."


Yes, and what a fine example of speaking out of both sides of one's mouth. 



> So if I had to guess, and that is all anyone here is doing right now, I'd say it wasn't in with the fluffy stuffed animals, but more likely with other games aimed at an adult audience.  Which includes poker sets (gambling), a desperate houswives game (which I am sure I've seen in stores with the board games for other ages), Sex and the City, beer, wine, other gambling, etc.


Is this okay in Canada?  I mean I know other countries are more sexually free than we are in the states.

But I still stand by this:  If it were a mistake, why didn't they say so?


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## Kacey (Oct 25, 2006)

As a fitness aid for adults, I see no problem; if it is (or was) indeed being marketed to prepubescent children, then something needs to be changed... forcibly, if necessary.


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## michaeledward (Oct 25, 2006)

How many of use visit 'Spencer's' in the local mall? 

There is stuff in the back of that store, that I would never even pickup to take a closer look at. But it is all there for any teenager wandering through. Certain items do belong only at 'Amazing.Net' locations. 

But, isn't that what the 'Marketplace of Ideas' is all about? 

While I don't want to pidgeon hole any one on this board ... many of us have obvious political leanings. And now this thread is in the Study. It seems that many of the more Republican (Party of the Free Market) leaning folks are objecting to the idea of an 8'6" pole with a lacy garter. Isn't the right wing point of view - "Let the market decide"? 

Who really cares if the Joneses down the street buy their 8 year old daughter a stripper pole for play time or exercise? Isn't that the small government - nonintrusive government wing of the right side of the political fence? 

The market place of ideas has to be open to stupid ideas too, doesn't it? 

One may need to question why the poster chose the title he did for the thread ... but, other than that .... I wouldn't buy the toy for a child. But, my kids don't have cell phones, black lights, or the sexy dice available in Spencers either.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:


> But I still stand by this:  If it were a mistake, why didn't they say so?



Probably one of several reasons, take your pick...
1. Too stupid
2. Too embarassed
3. Too prideful
4. Too stubborn

I've seen that Pole Dancing game/kit in a Spencer's Gift (a real +18 store... little kids are run outta there all the time)... And it was appropriately placed in the "Adult Games" section. 

The whole thing maybe a stupid mistake... a not-so-bright-stocker, assistant manager whomever! might've put the games on the shelves. Who knows... 
Any parent worth their salt is going to NOT allow their kittens to become SEX kittens and getting this game for them.  
Likewise no game manufacturer (for kids or adults) is going to risk getting shut-down/outta business by knowingly doing this. Marketers are smarter than that I would think. 

I'm willing to say someone screwed up somehow-somewhere.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2006)

I've got a few comments here that might be a little off topic of where the thread is going, but I think are relevant to the title of the thread.

We as a society are pushing messages about sexuality that I think are clearly hypocritical, if not downright schitzophrenic.

We have idolized youth to the extreme.  Aging is unacceptable, and more and more people are doing whatever their pocketbook can afford to try and make themselves look younger and younger.  And with TV shows like _Extreme Makeover_, it gets sanctioned by the media and by the public.  People undergo all kinds of surgery designed to make them look prettier, which generally means younger.  Youth hasn't simply been idolized, but a big part of it has also been sexualized.  We have beauty pagants for very young children, in which they are heavily sexualized.  Youth and sex go hand in hand.  This attitude has permeated our society extensively.

So why is it that we are shocked when kids are harmed by pedophiles?  After all, our society has pounded into everyone's head that youth is beauty, and youth is sexy, and youth is desireable.  Is it any wonder that those who are attracted to youth in the extreme are going to act upon impulse and desire?  These people are really only taking society's message and running with it.  In a way, we as a society have told them that it's OK to do.  But then we want to hold up the pedophiles as a pariah and act like it is something wrong with them.  Really, we have created our own problems and our own monsters.  In a subtle and sneaky way we have told them that this is OK, and now we see the results.

Sexuality and desire and arousal are a very interesting thing.  Different people find different things arousing, and its a good thing because we don't all fit a single mold.  If we did, many of us would never find a partner or a spouse to share our lives with.  Some people are attracted to skinny people, others to heavy people, others to tall people with dredlocks, others to short people with long hair, or high boots, or high heels, or leather and lace, etc.  What an individual is attracted to and aroused by is a very personal thing, and it cannot be reasoned in, nor reasoned out of a person.  It just is what it is.  Unfortunatley, some people are sexually attracted to children.  

I read an article in a newspaper once, where an individual admitted to being attracted to children.  However, he was fully aware of how damaging it would be if he ever acted upon that attraction, and he had never acted upon it so far.  He deliberately lived his life in such a way to never be placed into a tempting circumstance, where he might harm a child.  He was forced to acknowledge this side of himself, but was clear headed enough to understand how dangerous it would be, and strong enough to take steps to ensure it never caused harm to anyone.

Reaction to this article was rather strong.  People called him a demon, claimed he was sick, and a terrible person, etc.  I think just the opposite is true.  Like I stated earlier, you can't simply change whatever gets you aroused.  There is no button in your brain that you can simply turn off so that it doesn't happen.  This person had not acted on his impulse.  He was strong enough to recognize the danger, and took steps to prevent any trouble.  You cannot attack someone for simply having thoughts that you disagree with.  If he doesn't act upon those thoughts, he has done nothing wrong.

But given the messages that our society sends out, idolizing youth, sexualizing youth, is it really any wonder that some people who are attracted to children might act upon those impulses?  While these people have truly done a terrible thing, I think we as a society really have to look at ourselves and recognize that we are Dr. Frankenstein, and we have created a monster.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

shesulsa said:


> You get to that page by clicking through the games and toys link, which page had the title "Children's toys and games."   I would expect to find games, toys and 'exercise programs' to be found through a separate link from the one for children.  Is that *really* too difficult to see or expect??



So they should remove the "Children's" from the title line in your opinion?  The links don't say that, just the title.

And it's not a excercise program by the sounds of things, it's a game.  So, if I where looking for this, I guess I'd be in the minority.  Because I'd look under "Games" in the "18+" section.  Which I'd guess is where it was.  Right between the gambling games, drinking games and Desperate Houswives / Sex in the City games.

But it is a game, a physical one yes, but so is "Twister" and it isn't in the excercise section.
Papers sell based on there stories.  This story sold, and if you read it carefully it is vague and misleading.  The game was meant for adults, manufactured with adults in mind, and the article was not at all specific on where it was found on the website.

I think we have a very clear case of turning nothing, or something fairly small into a big moral outrage story to be honest.  Twist things a little, leave things vague so that people can fill in the blanks themselves and *poof* your story is getting a reaction and being passed around the office.


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## Kacey (Oct 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I've got a few comments here that might be a little off topic of where the thread is going, but I think are relevant to the title of the thread.



This is, indeed, slightly off topic - but also well thought out and well stated.  As a middle school teacher, I see way too many kids trying to fit the model you give - and those who are clinging to childhood are derided by those who aren't.  I could see many of the kids I teach (and they are kids, no matter they think) buying this item and using it to learn to pole dance, so they can get a job doing just that in high school, and the trend in general disturbs and disgusts me.


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## crushing (Oct 25, 2006)

michaeledward said:


> How many of use visit 'Spencer's' in the local mall?
> 
> There is stuff in the back of that store, that I would never even pickup to take a closer look at. But it is all there for any teenager wandering through. Certain items do belong only at 'Amazing.Net' locations.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not sure if you meant conservative instead of Republican as a 'political leaning', because they aren't synonymous, especially the Republicans of today, but that's another thread.

I don't see anyone here, regardless of 'political leaning', objecting to the pole dancing kit itself like you say.  The objections seem to be the apparent marketing of such devices to young children.

I think Andrew Green may be on to something with the media sensationalism possibility.  Maybe NBC will ignite some model rocket engines strapped on to the stripper poles to demonstrate how dangerous they can be?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Kacey said:


> This is, indeed, slightly off topic - but also well thought out and well stated.  As a middle school teacher, I see way too many kids trying to fit the model you give - and those who are clinging to childhood are derided by those who aren't.  I could see many of the kids I teach (and they are kids, no matter they think) buying this item and using it to learn to pole dance, so they can get a job doing just that in high school, and the trend in general disturbs and disgusts me.




Ah, but now we are going to the problem, and not stomping feet and pointing fingers at who is to blame everytime a symptom comes up


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

The Spencer's stores here have an employee who hangs around where the "everyone" section and the "adult" section transition and who chases away the underage crown trying to get a peek at the adult stuff.

It bothers me that we should be so ... something ... to not care that adult-based games (yes, all of them) are mixed with the kids games.  I don't like it in stores (no, I don't shop Spencers), I don't like it in catalogs, I don't like it on the web and the fact that it doesn't bother people bothers me.

It's different from putting condoms in the tampax aisle at the store, it's different than appropriate, healthful sexual education, it's marketing sex to young people and it's just ... plain ... wrong.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> But given the messages that our society sends out, idolizing youth, sexualizing youth, is it really any wonder that some people who are attracted to children might act upon those impulses? While these people have truly done a terrible thing, I think we as a society really have to look at ourselves and recognize that we are Dr. Frankenstein, and we have created a monster.



This is off post, but you took it here so&#8230;

If one is a pedophile it matters not if the child is made up to look like an adult or if society idolizing and sexualizing youth, they are still attracted to children. It does not matter what a child dresses like if you are a pedophile you are already predisposed to being sexually attracted to children. 

Believe it or not I once had a Catholic priest tell me something similar, that it was the childs fault that priests were attracted to children because they all dressed so much like adults today and wearing so much make up. I responded to that too, but I admit I did rant a whole lot more. And it is a good thing I am not catholic because I probably would have been excommunicated if I were. 

However I do see your point and I think this has gone WAY too far. I have seen shirts for todlers with sexy on it, my wife was looking through a sales bin one day for shirts for our child and pulled out one to ask me what this meant on the front (my wife is from China) and when I told her she could not believe that someone would put that on a childs shirt. This to me is just plain wrong and we no longer shop there. By the way it couldn't be sold in China and the company would probably get in big trouble for doing it.

As for the man who new he was a pedophile and fought the urges, I applaud his efforts, but I still wouldn't want my child anywhere near him.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

So where should they put them? 

If the 4 adult aimed games are not to be grouped with the games aimed at every other age group then where do they go?

Are violent games and gambling games different?  Is it just games with sexual content that should be moved?

What bothers me is the blame game.  Someone else is always responsible for corrupting the youth.  Stores are there to sell products that people want, make them easy to find, and make money.  That's what they do.

The logical place for a game would seem to be the games section would it not?  And if they created a adult section I'd guess there would be outrage over that too.  No win situation really.

And should sex be so taboo that stores can't sell things that are sex related?

And how is this different then selling condoms?  Because it promotes sex as something fun rather then medical?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> And should sex be so taboo that stores can't sell things that are sex related?
> 
> And how is this different then selling condoms? Because it promotes sex as something fun rather then medical?


 
You can't sell the stuff in most stores without getting into big trouble in Beijing and how many millions of people live there? Obviously sex is not taboo there it is just all thought of as for adults only. Therefore any place children are sex related stuff isn't. 

They have banned certain American cartoons because they feel they are not good for Children, the Simpsons is one of those. 

Actually in the world today they tend to sell condoms in many places to promote safe sex therefore it is medical. Even though it is aimed at those that participate in recreational sex it is an effort to stop STDs.


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## Carol (Oct 25, 2006)

*Tesco condemned for selling pole dancing toy*

by COLIN FERNANDEZ Last updated at 23:13pm on 24th October 2006 

 Reader comments (51) 


 


Hmmm...the website says that Tesco was "forced" to make the change...the kit includes play money...

Same company that brought us the Baby Bratz dolls...

Looks like Tescon intended it to be a toy to me.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2006)

*quote=Xue Sheng *

*If one is a pedophile it matters not if the child is made up to look like an adult or if society idolizing and sexualizing youth, they are still attracted to children. It does not matter what a child dresses like if you are a pedophile you are already predisposed to being sexually attracted to children. *

Of course.  Like I stated, whatever you are attracted to, nobody can really do anything to change it.  It can't be reasoned in or out, and it can't be beat in or out.  It just is what it is, whether the rest of us find it appropriate or not.

*Believe it or not I once had a Catholic priest tell me something similar, that it was the childs fault that priests were attracted to children because they all dressed so much like adults today and wearing so much make up. I responded to that too, but I admit I did rant a whole lot more. And it is a good thing I am not catholic because I probably would have been excommunicated if I were.* 

I never ever suggested it was the child's fault.  If anything, it would be the fault of adults who perpetuate the image of youth and sexuality.  Parents who enter their 8 or 10 year old daughters in Beauty Pagants and dress them up like prom dates or young brides, or hookers, and teach them to walk and prance and tease the audience on stage might share some of the blame.  Really, I'm not trying to pinpoint blame on any individual, but rather suggesting we step back and take a look at the bigger picture and see what might be some of the contributors to these problems.

*As for the man who new he was a pedophile and fought the urges, I applaud his efforts, but I still wouldn't want my child anywhere near him.[/quote]*

In his case, you would never even know it was him, I suspect.  We are probably surrounded by people every day who have thoughts that, if we knew them, we might find repulsive or at least inappropriate.  Some other people might find our own thoughts repulsive or inappropriate if they knew them as well.  But regardless of the thoughts we all might harbor from time to time, most of us are able to resist acting upon them, probably because they aren't strong enough compulsions, and/or we recognize the harm they would cause and we know right from wrong.


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## MA-Caver (Oct 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> *As for the man who new he was a pedophile and fought the urges, I applaud his efforts, but I still wouldn't want my child anywhere near him.*
> 
> In his case, you would never even know it was him, I suspect.  We are probably surrounded by people every day who have thoughts that, if we knew them, we might find repulsive or at least inappropriate.  Some other people might find our own thoughts repulsive or inappropriate if they knew them as well.  But regardless of the thoughts we all might harbor from time to time, most of us are able to resist acting upon them, probably because they aren't strong enough compulsions, and/or we recognize the harm they would cause and we know right from wrong.



HA! More likely people don't act upon them because they knew how much trouble *they'd* get into if they did. Thus they're more aware and afraid of the consenquences than they are of their own inner-most desires/complusions. The sex-offenders I had worked with (at first) didn't realize or care about the harm their compulsions would've caused they were more interested in their own self-gratification. Later (thankfully) they were made to understand the harm they caused and made to empathize the hurt they caused. Most of them I assume got "rehabilitated" because they knew they'd go to prison for a very long time if they re-offended. 
Sometimes it takes years for a person's "inner-most" desires to manifest themselves. That "braving the fire" enough to stick your hand in to get what you want... that can take a while to build up with some people. Thus we become shocked when the neighbor next door is arrested for pedophilia. 

But to the topic, teaching children ... make that, teaching impressionable children is a dual edged sword. We as a society have a responsiblity to ensure that the children of today are going to be the adults we want them (and us) to be tomorrow. Sending mixed messages like that by putting adult oriented toys next to children's toys isn't going to help. A child can only go by what they're taught is right or wrong by the adults around them. 
Society here in America says that it's wrong for a child to act in a sexual manner (with each other or with an adult). Society in Thailand says it's okay. 
Parents bear the ultimate responsibility of making sure their children know what is right and what is wrong. Society is usually the one who makes that determination for the Parents.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:


> Same company that brought us the Baby Bratz dolls...
> 
> Looks like Tescon intended it to be a toy to me.





Bratz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratz 

Made by MGA entertainment, a company that makes toys for children.

This game was made by a company called "Peekaboo Pole Dancing Ltd." ( peekaboo.co.uk ) that makes.... Adult games!

Not sure where you got that it was the same company...


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Bratz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bratz
> 
> Made by MGA entertainment, a company that makes toys for children.
> 
> ...


 
OK not the same company but why not respond to all of Carol's post 



Carol Kaur said:


> Hmmm...the website says that Tesco was "forced" to make the change...the kit includes play money...


 
The issue of Tesco being forced to make the change. So was it originally sold on the more children related site or not? 

And why issue play money with the game? 

Regardless of where it was sold, who sold it or what its intent was it apparently WAS accessible to Children. So why, if they truly meant to sell this for adults put it somewhere where children could easily get to it?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Flying Crane said:


> I never ever suggested it was the child's fault. If anything, it would be the fault of adults who perpetuate the image of youth and sexuality. Parents who enter their 8 or 10 year old daughters in Beauty Pagants and dress them up like prom dates or young brides, or hookers, and teach them to walk and prance and tease the audience on stage might share some of the blame. Really, I'm not trying to pinpoint blame on any individual, but rather suggesting we step back and take a look at the bigger picture and see what might be some of the contributors to these problems.


 
I agree that society has an awful lot to do with it and I am not at all happy about it.

Now youre not going to excommunicate me are you 



Flying Crane said:


> In his case, you would never even know it was him, I suspect. We are probably surrounded by people every day who have thoughts that, if we knew them, we might find repulsive or at least inappropriate. Some other people might find our own thoughts repulsive or inappropriate if they knew them as well. But regardless of the thoughts we all might harbor from time to time, most of us are able to resist acting upon them, probably because they aren't strong enough compulsions, and/or we recognize the harm they would cause and we know right from wrong.


 
Probably true. 

And in the case of the self restrained pedophile it is both revulsion and abject terror as the reason I would not want any child near him.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> The issue of Tesco being forced to make the change. So was it originally sold on the more children related site or not?



Who knows?  It says it was labeled as 18+ and doesn't go much more specific.  



> And why issue play money with the game?



Well... because it is a game...  Adults are known to play monopoly and it uses play money, as to countless other games.  Which is why this would be a game, meant for multiple players, and not a excercise program...



> Regardless of where it was sold, who sold it or what its intent was it apparently WAS accessible to Children. So why, if they truly meant to sell this for adults put it somewhere where children could easily get to it?




Like R rated movies in a video store?  Or gangsta rap in the music store? Or Adult video games in the video game department? or sexy underwear in the clothing section?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Who knows? It says it was labeled as 18+ and doesn't go much more specific.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I am guessing at this point I should just say, we will not agree and let it go.

later


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## CoryKS (Oct 25, 2006)

Maybe they are targeting adults, and maybe they ain't.  But that pole in the picture that Carol Kaur posted doesn't look like it's going to support an adult woman.  I'm just sayin'.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

go to the companies website, the poll extends floor to ceiling.  It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks like it could be close in sturdiness to doorway mounted chin up bars.


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## CoryKS (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> go to the companies website, the poll extends floor to ceiling. It's hard to tell from the picture but it looks like it could be close in sturdiness to doorway mounted chin up bars.


 
I'm no engineer, but if it's floor to ceiling that width seems awfully flimsy for load-bearing.  Unless it's made of carbon nanotubes or something.  Either that or the phony dollars are really wide.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

well, since we are all just guessing here, we got no idea what the "excercise" are.  I would guess that as this is a game being marketed to general public as a party game nothing to fancy is done.  But, look at the website, all adults, no kids.  Look like there are even some videos there.  Have a look before claiming it is "Aimed at kids"

I would guess that the average 8 year old wouldn't even be able to set a floor to ceiling poll up without help...


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Apparently this part of the article was missed

Tesco agreed to remove the product from the Toy section , but said it will remain on sale as a Fitness Accessory. 

Which could be interpreted as it was originally not sold as a Fitness Accessory.

But then again I am just guessing. 

The article also talks about Asda being forced to remove from sale pink and black lace lingerie, including a push-up bra to 9 year old girls too. 

But that too has not been mentioned here. 

Either way I am going to maintain it is just wrong what Tesco did and it is certainly wrong what Asda has done as well. 

I do not believe either was assisting pedophiles but it is certainly setting a very bad example for children and I agree with "the Destruction of Childhood label of the post.


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## crushing (Oct 25, 2006)

From the TESCO website:

http://direct.tesco.com/q/R.100-4792.aspx



> SUITABLE FOR ADULTS ONLY. Simply extend the Peekaboo pole inside the tube, put on the music and get fit.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

I think it's two different issues.  One is clothing marketed at kids, the second is a game / fitness equipment marketed at adults.

But type "Peekaboo pole dancing" into google images, see if you see anything that looks like it is targeting kids.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Not to repeat myself but

_*Tesco agreed to remove the product from the Toy section , but said it will remain on sale as a Fitness Accessory.* 

Which could be interpreted as it was originally not sold as a Fitness Accessory._

Therefore the problem has been rectified by Tesco so you will not find it anywhere else. And it would also now have a disclaimer for adults only. 

None of us know if it had that disclaimer before or not and if it did then they just should have been more careful where it was placed and they should not be vilified but they should be told to be more careful. But if they did not then they are way wrong and deserve all the bad press they get.


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

> So where should they put them?
> 
> If the 4 adult aimed games are not to be grouped with the games aimed at every other age group then where do they go?
> 
> ...


I already addressed most of these points in my previous posts, so I won't bother with redundancy, rather your ability to read what I've posted.

The logical place, of course, for adult games to be, is on a page with a click-through disclaimer to a section of adult games.

In the states, games and toys have an age rating - do they not in the UK or Canada?  I don't think putting up one more tab for the grownups will hurt anyone and may protect them from this kind of thing in the future with the click-through.


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## matt.m (Oct 25, 2006)

Terry, I want to help with the mind changing.  Can I please, please?  Look, the people who came up with the idea of pole dancing for 8 yr olds should be shot and hung.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

matt.m said:


> Terry, I want to help with the mind changing. Can I please, please? Look, the people who came up with the idea of pole dancing for 8 yr olds should be shot and hung.




But there is the problem, no one did.  The article said someone did, but no one did.  Look at the companies website, do a search for the product name.  This is not meant for kids, only a article sensationalizing things to get a mob reaction and get read.   

But, if someone can show marketing material that is aiming this at 8-year olds by all means, lets see it.  One misleading article doesn't count.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2006)

*quote=MA-Caver *

*HA! More likely people don't act upon them because they knew how much trouble they'd get into if they did. Thus they're more aware and afraid of the consenquences than they are of their own inner-most desires/complusions. *

That could certainly be part of it.

*The sex-offenders I had worked with (at first) didn't realize or care about the harm their compulsions would've caused they were more interested in their own self-gratification. Later (thankfully) they were made to understand the harm they caused and made to empathize the hurt they caused. Most of them I assume got "rehabilitated" because they knew they'd go to prison for a very long time if they re-offended.*

Well, they are sex offenders only because they acted upon their desires.  How many people do you suppose are walking around with inappropriate thoughts, but who never act upon them, never hurt anybody, and never get into trouble?  We'll never know.

*Sometimes it takes years for a person's "inner-most" desires to manifest themselves. That "braving the fire" enough to stick your hand in to get what you want... that can take a while to build up with some people. Thus we become shocked when the neighbor next door is arrested for pedophilia.* 

Yes, also true, but until it happens, we will never know, unless the person exhibits some other signs of things to come.  But this can be subtle and often not easy to spot, except in hindsight, after the fact.

*Society here in America says that it's wrong for a child to act in a sexual manner (with each other or with an adult). Society in Thailand says it's okay.* 

Hmm... I think Thailand is cracking down on pedophiles quite a bit now.  A lot of it has to do with the US prodding it to take a stronger stance against sex turists, but the bottom line seems to be that it is a universal standard that it is inappropriate for children to be sexually active.  The actual limits and boundaries may be different from culture to culture, but there is a sense that sexual contact between adults and children is wrong.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> Now youre not going to excommunicate me are you


 

As a recovering ex-catholic myself, I'm certainly in no position to excommunicate anybody.


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Look at the companies website, do a search for the product name. This is not meant for kids, only a article sensationalizing things to get a mob reaction and get read.
> 
> But, if someone can show marketing material that is aiming this at 8-year olds by all means, lets see it. One misleading article doesn't count.



I suppose no company has any responsibility to market their items appropriately anymore and anyone who thinks otherwise is reactionary.  Curious opinion, but ... your opinion, nonetheless.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Reference to where you see this product being marketed towards children please.


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Reference to where you see this product being marketed towards children please.


The item was on a page titled "Children's Toys and Games."  That's subtle marketing, but marketing nonetheless.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

no, the article doesn't say that.  It could easily have been on the "Adult Games" page, which makes more sense the way I read that article.  But because they left it vague you are free to assume the worst.

Are the other games under "Adult games" a problem in there current location?


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> But there is the problem, no one did. The article said someone did, but no one did. Look at the companies website, do a search for the product name. This is not meant for kids, only a article sensationalizing things to get a mob reaction and get read.
> 
> But, if someone can show marketing material that is aiming this at 8-year olds by all means, lets see it. One misleading article doesn't count.


 
I hate to repeat myself again here but...

_*Tesco agreed to remove the product from the Toy section , but said it will remain on sale as a Fitness Accessory.* 

Which could be interpreted as it was originally not sold as a Fitness Accessory._

*Therefore the problem has been rectified by Tesco so you will not find it anywhere else. And it would also now have a disclaimer for adults only. 
*
Minor Rant to follow

They have already fixed the problem so searching the site today is a waste of time. You will not find anything wrong, it has already been fixed, it is not there, it will not be seen by anyone that goes there, it is no longer on the page as previously stated, it is am ex-issue as far as Tesco is concerned. They have fixed the problem so continuing to point at the fact that it is not on the page today is not proving anything it is just saying it is not there today so it wasn't there yesterday and per tescos own admission this is not the case it has been removed from were it once was.

Minor Rant over

OK that is as close to a rant as I have been in a while. 

I'm done...for now


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

I'm not pointing at that page, how about any page, anything coming from the manufacturer that would suggest it is aimed at kids.  Any promotional material, any publicity pictures, anything?

If all this was was a minor catalouging error on there website then there is certainly nothing to warrant this moral outrage reaction.  But people are claiming it was created and advertised with the purpose of selling it to kids, I see nothing from the manufacturer that would lead to that conclusion at all. 

I just see a article that is rather vague and in some ways missleading article. It also looks like it once had it in the "Adult Games" section, but moved it too fitness.  (It is not in the adult games section now)  The original article also states that it had a adults only classifciation from the beginning.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> I'm not pointing at that page, how about any page, anything coming from the manufacturer that would suggest it is aimed at kids. Any promotional material, any publicity pictures, anything?.


 
As stated it has been fixed therefore you will find nothing. It would not be the first time a corporation did a cover up with a side order of denial



Andrew Green said:


> If all this was was a minor catalouging error on there website then there is certainly nothing to warrant this moral outrage reaction. But people are claiming it was created and advertised with the purpose of selling it to kids, I see nothing from the manufacturer that would lead to that conclusion at all..


 
I think I already said something very much like this



Andrew Green said:


> I just see a article that is rather vague and in some ways missleading article. It also looks like it once had it in the "Adult Games" section, but moved it too fitness. (It is not in the adult games section now) The original article also states that it had a adults only classifciation from the beginning.


 
I am more than willing to admit as a parent of young children that this will in general cause a rather emotional and angry response and it could be just a sensationalized story that the people that complained made to get their Andy Warhol 15 minutes. But it could also be a good job of corporate denial and cover up too. 

But just for a second, and to be honest we are all speculating as to what really happened, What if it was originally geared towards children? Then how would you respond? Because in all honesty none of us really know what went on based on this 1 publicized story. 

If it is as most feel here it certainly would not be the first time a corporation geared its advertising towards children using a sexual approach, the bratz that have been mentioned are a good example as it the toddlers shirt that had "Sexy" on the front of it, or the push up bra for 9 year olds

How do you feel about those issues?


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> As stated it has been fixed therefore you will find nothing. It would not be the first time a corporation did a cover up with a side order of denial



That's partially my point.  We don't know.  It was either in the "Adult games" section, which seems appropriate.  Or worse case, someone made a error entering it into the database and it got placed under a younger age.  The article doesn't say either way.




> But it could also be a good job of corporate denial and cover up too.



I don't see that, and I am the first to admit corporations are evil.  But there is nothing at all here that would show that.



> What if it was originally geared towards children?



Visit the manufacturers website, look around at stories / advertisements for it.  It is very clearly aimed at adults.  One retailler that may or may not have had it catagorized wrong has absolutely nothing to do with what the manufacturer intended.

But it seems a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to claim it was aimed at kids based on one story without even bothering to look up the product.



> If it is as most feel here it certainly would not be the first time a corporation geared its advertising towards children using a sexual approach, the bratz that have been mentioned are a good example as it the toddlers shirt that had "Sexy" on the front of it, or the push up bra for 9 year olds
> 
> How do you feel about those issues?




I feel they are completely seperate issues that have nothing at all to do with the story above.  I feel the story above was being very misleading in bringing in those items to sensationalize there story.  The product mentioned was not aimed at kids.

Suppose I run a bookstore, and some clerk leaves a stack of Playboy's on the kids section shelf.  Is Playboy to blame?  To we throw our hands up and point fingers at evil corporations marketing sex to kids?  No, Playboy Magazine didn't market it to them, it was a mistake.  But with enough fluff around it pointing to other things you could probably get a story out of it.  That's what this is.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> That's partially my point. We don't know. It was either in the "Adult games" section, which seems appropriate. Or worse case, someone made a error entering it into the database and it got placed under a younger age. The article doesn't say either way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I will ask these only one more time and if choose not to answer I will let it drop.

I am not saying that the manufacture did anything and I do not see my questions as a separate issue at this point, it is a what if scenario.

What if it was originally geared towards children? 

Then how would you respond?  

And there are toys that gear advertising towards children using a sexual approach, the bratz that have been mentioned are a good example as it the toddlers shirt that had "Sexy" on the front of it, or the push up bra for 9 year olds. How do you feel about these issues?

And since the original story was based on the possibility of a toy that was potentially sexually explicit in nature the above toys are exactly that so what would be your stance on those?


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## shesulsa (Oct 25, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Suppose I run a bookstore, and some clerk leaves a stack of Playboy's on the kids section shelf.  Is Playboy to blame?


Since it's your store, it's your fault.  It would be up to you to reprimand/fire the clerk, but since you own the place, you are the DJP (Designated Jail Person).  

In the case of Tesco, it is the company's fault and they must answer, though they clearly will have to do something about the clerk who *allegedly* mistakenly put something there.

And what you can't seem to escape is that before the article, a person had to click on "TOYS" to get to this adult item.  Now, unless you're on www.playboy.com, I don't think it's out of line nor far reaching to think that one would *not* likely find adult items through a "toys" link.  All the adult games you mention had to be found through the "toys" link.  Now, this is either intentional, neglectful, or just a plain old bad site mapping job.  Regardless of the source of blame, the entire company is at fault, legally and morally.  Any businessman worth his salt wouldn't hesitate to take responsibility for the oversight if it were an honest mistake ... but I must question anyone who defends the action of its placement as a child page of a "toys" link.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Oh, for the corporate cover up theory, one thing about the interenet is things can't be covered up that easily.  Everything is cached, indexed and otherwise copied all over the place.

The item in question was formerly listed under "Arcade & Gadgets" in the "Adult" section"  It also appeared in other queries, such as price range and number of players.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 25, 2006)

Taddaa!

Cached version of the product info from before they moved it:

http://cc.msnscache.com/cache.aspx?q=4183428839824&lang=en-CA&mkt=en-CA&FORM=CVRE2

Notice:



> Age Group	Adult


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## TaiChiTJ (Oct 25, 2006)

I agree with Makow on all this. 


http://savethemales.ca/


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## Jonathan Randall (Oct 26, 2006)

Bad call to put it where they did.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Oh, for the corporate cover up theory, one thing about the interenet is things can't be covered up that easily. Everything is cached, indexed and otherwise copied all over the place.
> 
> The item in question was formerly listed under "Arcade & Gadgets" in the "Adult" section" It also appeared in other queries, such as price range and number of players.


 
I see my questions went unanswered therefore I will let it drop. :asian:


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:


> I see my questions went unanswered therefore I will let it drop. :asian:



If you want to start a "What if" thread by all means, go ahead.  But they do not at all reflect what did happen, just a big "What if"


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## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Taddaa!
> 
> Cached version of the product info from before they moved it:
> 
> ...



Ah yes ... where you STILL had to click through TOYS AND GAMES to GET THERE.

Did you see that you have to click on TOYS AND GAMES to get there?  Did you see that the first page you find when you click on TOYS AND GAMES is a child's game page? 

Whatever.  I'm done.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2006)

Do you object to the other "Toys and Games" aimed at adults in there?


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## shesulsa (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> Do you object to the other "Toys and Games" aimed at adults in there?


I've already answered that question.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2006)

ok...  so:



> The logical place, of course, for adult games to be, is on a page with a click-through disclaimer to a section of adult games.



This is meant for poker sets as well?  Seems a little excessive to me.


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## ajs1976 (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> ok... so:
> 
> 
> 
> This is meant for poker sets as well? Seems a little excessive to me.


 
No, gambling and drinking are socially acceptible to have children aware of them.  Anything sex related needs to locked in a cabinet in the back of the store, with black paper over the glass, so no young eyes can see it.   

I think the only mistake that was made was having the page title for the Toys and Games section displayed as Children's Toys and Games.  If that is where the pole was originally located any.

On a similiar note, I saw Carmen Electra's new exercise video in Target the other day.  It was on the end of one of the aisle on one of the displays, not hidden in the back.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> If you want to start a "What if" thread by all means, go ahead. But they do not at all reflect what did happen, just a big "What if"


 
As stated I have dropped it.

My question, I believe, was answered.


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## Andrew Green (Oct 26, 2006)

doc clean said:


> On a similiar note, I saw Carmen Electra's new exercise video in Target the other day.  It was on the end of one of the aisle on one of the displays, not hidden in the back.



This is a good question, to everyone upset about the store selling the pole, how do you feel about all of the Aerobic Striptease videos on the market, available at major stores in open areas, and AFAIK, not even carrying "R" ratings?

I did a little search, most listed them as NR, but I did see one that listed it as PG rated. (Canadian)


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2006)

I agree with the previous poster who says this item does not LOOK as tho it was intended to support an adult.

I wont assume anyone else has frequented those establishments, but I have seen HOW a strip pole is intened for use... 

Here's an idea... I actually have a "dancer" in the family... perhaps we should get one of these poles, provide it to her, and see, as a professional, if she feels its safe for adult use.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 27, 2006)

Andrew Green said:


> This is a good question, to everyone upset about the store selling the pole, how do you feel about all of the Aerobic Striptease videos on the market, available at major stores in open areas, and AFAIK, not even carrying "R" ratings?
> 
> I did a little search, most listed them as NR, but I did see one that listed it as PG rated. (Canadian)


 
Around here, (at least at the FYE and Suncoast stores in the local mall) those videos are in bins marked "Adult" and hidden behind black dividers that prevent you from veiwing the packaging with a casual walk by.  You have to stop in the adult section and remove the black covers to view the Video cases.  Also, I cant speak for Canadia or the rest of the world but the MPAA rating system is Volluntary in the US, not law.  I can release any film I want, inc. hardcore porn as NR if I choose.


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