# Korean Stick Arts



## isshinryu guy

I have recently run across some DVD's by Sang H. Kim from Turtle Press regarding the stick fighting part of his Junsado combat system.

 Does anyone know if there is in fact a system of stick fighting that is indiginous to Korea? Do you think he made this system up himself, or is there in fact different styles of Korean stick arts out there that I am un-aware of?

 I am wondering of he took some Filipino styles, and modified it. In his double stick system, he uses a reverse grip in the subordinate hand.

 Let me know if you know anything about this...Thanks.


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## MasterPistella

I bought that DVD you are speaking of in hopes that it might have had some "traditional" Korean influence. Unfortunately it is something he made up. I still like the DVD. I have a few other's of his also & they aren't too bad. Not crazy about the breathing one. I don't think there is an organized Korean art around weapons like Okinawan kobudo, but the dahn bong (short stick) was used, as well as other weapons.


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## Humble Student

Yep! 
His background is more TKD. Not that there is anything wrong with that.
Its just TKD is not really known for weapon work. Unless it has been an add on.


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## SahBumNimRush

I have seen this DVD, and I think it was worth renting.  That said, I cannot comment on how authentically "traditional KMA" it is.


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## MBuzzy

To the best of my knowledge, there isn't a "traditional" Korean stick art, but in the absence of one...doesn't anything created in Korea by a Korean count?


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## David43515

There HAD to be indiginous weapon work in Korea, it`s brobably just not as well known as TKD. No society ever went to war empty-handed.


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## MBuzzy

David43515 said:


> There HAD to be indiginous weapon work in Korea, it`s brobably just not as well known as TKD. No society ever went to war empty-handed.



There is a GREAT DEAL of weapon work, but I'm not sure about sticks - at least in the phillipino sense.  

NOW, if you look into Hapkido, there is indigenous bong work (bong meaning stick, just like bo in japanese) and they do have different sizes...but it is a completely different world from the phillipino styles.


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## cdunn

David43515 said:


> There HAD to be indiginous weapon work in Korea, it`s brobably just not as well known as TKD. No society ever went to war empty-handed.


 
Yeah, there was indigineous weapon work at one point, long ago. However, there are certain problems with transmission to the modern time - First, Korean culture of the late 1700s to late 1800s was not a culture in which the old warrior ways were highly valued. While the warrior classes still existed, the scholar-officals were considred to be higher up the food chain. If you wanted to get ahead in life, you picked up the Four Books and Five Classics. 

Secondly, because of their relationship with China, much of of the Korean military borrowed heavily from China, not always to best effect. Of the truly native fighting arts, the best preserved is archery. Further, the Korean military's greatest historic success was _at sea_. The martial art of naval tactics is not really something you go out and practice idly. 

Finally, and perhaps most importantly, we must remember that Korea basically got crushed during the pertiod between 1895 and 1945. It was not a period conducive to the preservation of native martial arts.

All this adds up to a tremendous loss of the native martial arts. But then again, the native stick-fighting of the British Isles isn't terribly well preserved and perpetuated, either.


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## Bill Mattocks

Is this of any help?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muyedobotongji

They seem to refer to "Kon Bong" as 'stick fighting'.


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## shesulsa

I am hardly a martial arts scholar in that I don't read/write/speak Korean and I am not actively learning to do so. Perhaps someday I will make that leap, it just seems life has so many other plans for me.

That said, I find it continuously amusing yet frustrating that the Korean peninsula  - though it has been occupied by other, larger nations a couple of times - is not recognized for the fact that it managed to fight off formidable forces.  I've read a couple of summaries of the "reliable" historical accounts (what's left of them) translated to English inferring most of the monks in the buddhist temples were from the peninsula, that equestrian combat skills were brought from the peninsula out to China, Mongolia and Japan.

The most ancient history of the peninsula has been utterly destroyed so it is very easy to say nothing originated there - I'm sure Japan and China would both be very happy to claim that all skills above caveman abilities were introduced TO Korea from THEIR nations. While it's a given that all nations learned, shared and adapted their fighting skills according to the specialties of the enemy, I find these "origination" arguments rather droll, really.

The more I see of other styles, the more I see similarities between and amongst them all.

So pick up a stick and try a few different approaches to its use. Who really cares where it comes from? 

:asian:


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## Humble Student

I am with shesulsa on this one.

But to answer this one shesulsa

"So pick up a stick and try a few different approaches to its use. Who really cares where it comes from?"

The truth is that the only people who really care are the ones that try to compare who has the bigger (well ya know, lol)
Its all about ego more than anything else.
Sad when you think about it.


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## Don Daly

MBuzzy said:


> There is a GREAT DEAL of weapon work, but I'm not sure about sticks - at least in the phillipino sense.
> 
> NOW, if you look into Hapkido, there is indigenous bong work (bong meaning stick, just like bo in japanese) and they do have different sizes...but it is a completely different world from the phillipino styles.



To all who are interested.  This is indeed indigenous Korean stick arts.  If you want the authentic practical stick fighting start with Hwarang-do from the Joo Bang Lee lineage.  Michael D. Echanis' book on Basic Stick Fighting for Combat gives most of the basics for Korean stick fighting for the Jung Bong (baton-walking stick), Dan Bong (short stick), Kwa? Bong (snapping stick/bone breaker) and the Ji Pang-Ee (hooked cane).  Basic techniques for the Kon Bong (staff) are in the Muyedobotongi which shows it to be between Okinawan and Chinese staff.

One must remember that the Koreans took their own techniques and added whatever was useful from the Chinese/Japanese to continue to be a well prepared, fierce, fighting force in order to protect their freedom.  If not for Confucianisms down grading of the importance of military skills/weapons in Korean and the superiority of the production of modern weapons in pre-WWII Japan, Korean may have continued to be free.

Hope this is helpful to whomever may read it.

Don Daly


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## arnisador

Don Daly said:


> One must remember that the Koreans took their own techniques and added whatever was useful from the Chinese/Japanese to continue to be a well prepared, fierce, fighting force in order to protect their freedom.  If not for Confucianisms down grading of the importance of military skills/weapons in Korean and the superiority of the production of modern weapons in pre-WWII Japan, Korean may have continued to be free.



Leaving aside the Japanese conquest of Korea issues, essentially all post-WWII KMAs are of primarily Japanese origin starting in 1945. Most of their own techniques were lost in the first half of that century. The Echanis books do have a fair amount of stick material but it's far from clear that it is in any sense native.


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## Don Daly

OK, I forgot to mention the most important part.  Korean stick techniques have both soft and hard energy, but they almost always have snap at the end of the strike because unlike Filipino escrima/arnis/kali in Korean a stick is a stick and is used accordingly.  In Filipino arts, a stick is only a stick until you pick it up, then it becomes a sword/machete/kris (this is the mental attitude that the escrimador is to have).  In other words. Filipino "stick" arts are NOT stick arts, they are blade arts in disguise.  They may teach you how to use a stick (debatable) but they are intended to teach you combat blade fighting.  So if you really want to learn to use a stick, really as a stick for stick fighting.  The rarely taught Korean stick fighting is what you want.  What farm tools were to the Okinawans, sticks were to the Koreans.  Unfortunately this is very hard to find.  I will try to get something on the internet in the future.
Don Daly:asian:


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## Don Daly

It is easy to say that the Japanese arts were the only ones left, but the Korean taekkyon influence (and Chinese kungfu influences) in their arts make even most of their Japanese based arts distinct from the way they were done in Japan.  It is popular for those with gramdmasters who got 3-5th degree black belts in Japan pre-1945 to want to downgrade the taekkyon and other KMA influences as well as the CMA influences in the other masters of Korean Karate (ie. Hwang Kee, General Choi, Yun, Byung In), mixed arts (ie. Hapkido), and the founders of temple based systems (ie. Moo Sul, Hwarangdo).  These masters still had a working knowledge of basic Taekkyon and other Korean arts during the occupation and combined them with the most initially popular Karate, Judo and Aiki-jujitsu to make distinctly Korean versions that many consider to be superior to the straight Japanese versions.  Of course once it caught on, their "Korean" versions were much more popular in Korea as all things Japanese became more to be avoided.  There was definitely a lot of politics and prejudice involved as the once popular Japanese purists lost clout and students to the more nationalistic Korean schools.  So lets not say that all schools were primarily of Japanese origin, because Hwang, Kee's Hwa Soo Do and Yun, Byung In's Kwon Bup Bu - Kong Soo Do schools were two of the first post 1944 schools established and they were not only Japanese Karate but both had a heavey emphasis on Chinese arts and Korean influences.

As far as Echanis and others KMA stick fighting techniques.  They are distinctly Korean in style and I have not seen any Japanese arts that use that same style of techniques.  I also have additional techniques that I was taught by another Tang Soo Do school that do not use the same technique for baton/cane that Japanese sources use.  The basics of the straight cane/walking stick that I learned are much different that Hatsumi's basics in his stick fighting book and much more devastating.  I must admit that Hatsumi's finishing moves are great, but getting there works better with the Korean techniques.


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## arnisador

Don Daly said:


> OKorean stick techniques have both soft and hard energy, but they almost always have snap at the end of the strike because unlike Filipino escrima/arnis/kali in Korean a stick is a stick and is used accordingly.  In Filipino arts, a stick is only a stick until you pick it up, then it becomes a sword/machete/kris (this is the mental attitude that the escrimador is to have).  In other words. Filipino "stick" arts are NOT stick arts, they are blade arts in disguise.  They may teach you how to use a stick (debatable) but they are intended to teach you combat blade fighting.



I'm not sure a "snap" is as good as a full swing--if you mean the writs-snap in the Echanis "bone breaker" techniques, say.

What you say about the FMAs is true in general but there are numerous exceptions--Modern Arnis, Balintawak Eskrima--that are full-on stick arts now.



Don Daly said:


> It is easy to say that the Japanese arts were the only ones left, but the Korean taekkyon influence (and Chinese kungfu influences) in their arts make even most of their Japanese based arts distinct from the way they were done in Japan.



Absolutely, they're now distinct. Some arts do have Chinese influences but the native Korean influences are less transmitted techniques than cultural memory, recreated. The base arts are overwhelmingly straight Japanese systems: Shotokan-->TKD, Aikijutsu-->Hapkido, Judo--Yudo, Kendo--Gumdo.



> As far as Echanis and others KMA stick fighting techniques.  They are distinctly Korean in style and I have not seen any Japanese arts that use that same style of techniques.  I also have additional techniques that I was taught by another Tang Soo Do school that do not use the same technique for baton/cane that Japanese sources use.  The basics of the straight cane/walking stick that I learned are much different that Hatsumi's basics in his stick fighting book and much more devastating.  I must admit that Hatsumi's finishing moves are great, but getting there works better with the Korean techniques.



The Echanis material is indeed distinctive--very much so--but as HWD is modified Hapkido which is itself modified Japanese jujutsu, I don't think the material reflects a KMA tradition that predates WWII. I too have some concerns about the Hatsumi material but have only seen it and never felt it so I reserve judgment.


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## Stickgrappler

FWIW, sometime ago, I was reading one of Rey Galang's FMA books, think it was "Warrior Arts of the Phillipines" - offhand forgot the exact title, but it wasn't "Masters of the Blade" or "Classical Arnis" or his "Complete Sinawali" books

One of the chapters was on the late Edgar Sulite's Lameco Eskrima. There was a list of the Backyard Group of PG Sulite's and I'm pretty sure I saw "Sang H. Kim" listed. 

When i get home later tonight, i will double check.


For the record, I don't have any of Kim's stick dvd's.


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## Instructor

MBuzzy said:


> There is a GREAT DEAL of weapon work, but I'm not sure about sticks - at least in the phillipino sense.
> 
> NOW, if you look into Hapkido, there is indigenous bong work (bong meaning stick, just like bo in japanese) and they do have different sizes...but it is a completely different world from the phillipino styles.



Hapkido isn't what I would call a bastion of traditional Korean martial arts since it's derived from Japanese Aiki jujutsu.  Not that I don't love it, just that Hapkido didn't even exist prior to WWII.


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## DennisBreene

arnisador said:


> I'm not sure a "snap" is as good as a full swing--if you mean the writs-snap in the Echanis "bone breaker" techniques, say.
> 
> What you say about the FMAs is true in general but there are numerous exceptions--Modern Arnis, Balintawak Eskrima--that are full-on stick arts now.



As I have not seen the "snap" technique, is it in any way similar to the abinico (fan) technique used in Mordern Arnis?


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## DennisBreene

A quick Google search revealed this source in regards to pre 1800's Korean weaponry. At least in this publication, the predominant weapon was some modification of a blade; ie., sword, spear, etc.  http://www.turtlepress.com/articles/traditional_korean_weapons.aspx


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## arnisador

DennisBreene said:


> As I have not seen the "snap" technique, is it in any way similar to the abinico (fan) technique used in Mordern Arnis?



No--that is a swing that hits with the flat of the stick (vs. what would be the edge if it were a sword), and that is a different type of wrist motion--around the axis of the forearm, whereas the KMA version is in line with it (more like a cracking-the-whip motion).


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## miguksaram

Don Daly said:


> To all who are interested.  This is indeed indigenous Korean stick arts.  If you want the authentic practical stick fighting start with Hwarang-do from the Joo Bang Lee lineage.  Michael D. Echanis' book on Basic Stick Fighting for Combat gives most of the basics for Korean stick fighting for the Jung Bong (baton-walking stick), Dan Bong (short stick), Kwa? Bong (snapping stick/bone breaker) and the Ji Pang-Ee (hooked cane).  Basic techniques for the Kon Bong (staff) are in the Muyedobotongi which shows it to be between Okinawan and Chinese staff.
> 
> One must remember that the Koreans took their own techniques and added whatever was useful from the Chinese/Japanese to continue to be a well prepared, fierce, fighting force in order to protect their freedom.  If not for Confucianisms down grading of the importance of military skills/weapons in Korean and the superiority of the production of modern weapons in pre-WWII Japan, Korean may have continued to be free.
> 
> Hope this is helpful to whomever may read it.
> 
> Don Daly



I have the stick fighting book by Echanis.  While he was at one point a student of GM Lee's I do not believe these techniques were directly from the HRD system.  I believe the heart of this was Echanis's special forces training with the weapons and not directly related to  the HRD system.  There was, to my knowledge, any specific Korean stick fighting system like that of arnis.


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## Don Daly

I must admit after doing some recent searches on the internet that it looks like many of the Korean stick arts that I have seen recently appear to be copies of others, and I have to admit that in many cases the Korean arts may be more additions from Japan/China than original Korean (Taekkyon is the exception).  There are however, still some stick arts like those of Hwarang Do and the Dan Bong arts of Kuk Sul Won that are quite distinctive.  Echanis' Dan Bong techniques are closer to Arnis than the Kuk Sul Won techniques.  The Kuk Sul Won seem to be very different than anyone else.
I am very interested as to where you believe most of Echanis' stick techniques came from if not Korea.  I personally add nightstick techniques from a LAPD seminar on the nightstick that I received as a Law Enforcement Explorer Scout when I was in High School in LA.  I also add many additional Jung Bong techniques that I learned from a visiting Tang Soo Do student that shared them with us at the University of Wyoming.  The three groups of techniques all fit very well, but I do not know where the nightstick techniques originally came from.  This would be very interesting for further study, but right now my extra time is spent putting my interpretation of So Rim Jang Kwon on the Tang Soo Do forum.  Thanks for the insights.


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## Stickgrappler

Hello:

*bows deeply*

Speaking of the Dan Bong (short stick) - is there any concrete documentation in print saying how it came about? Or its first usage?


In the link provided by DennisBreene above:

http://www.turtlepress.com/articles/traditional_korean_weapons.aspx

there's no mention of the Dan Bong in the Muye Dobo Tongji.

Thank you in advance.

Very truly yours in the MA,

~sg


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## Balrog

David43515 said:


> There HAD to be indiginous weapon work in Korea, it`s brobably just not as well known as TKD. No society ever went to war empty-handed.


If you look at the history of martial arts weapons, most of them were farm tools or household implements originally.  For example, the narrow-handle, wide-body Korean stick (Bahng Mahng Ee) was originally a laundry tool.

I agree that there is no formal historical background for the use of the stick per se.  Most stick work these days appears to be based on Filipino styles.


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## Instructor

Balrog said:


> If you look at the history of martial arts weapons, most of them were farm tools or household implements originally. For example, the narrow-handle, wide-body Korean stick (Bahng Mahng Ee) was originally a laundry tool.
> 
> I agree that there is no formal historical background for the use of the stick per se. Most stick work these days appears to be based on Filipino styles.



And I think that is A-okay!  I think Filipino styles have pretty much perfected war with a stick.


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## miguksaram

Stickgrappler said:


> Hello:
> 
> Speaking of the Dan Bong (short stick) - is there any concrete documentation in print saying how it came about? Or its first usage?
> 
> there's no mention of the Dan Bong in the Muye Dobo Tongji.
> 
> Thank you in advance.


You will not see any mention of it in the MYDBTJ.  That book dealt with weapons that were used for military combat.  So outside of the kwonbup, and I believe staff, it dealt with bladed weapons of different sorts.

I would think most "Korean" origins would be through hapkido and its Aiki-jitsu connection.


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## Don Daly

Well, I surveyed Youtube for stick fighting to see what I could find that was similar to the Korean Jung Bong techniques that I learned.  It turns out that the closest thing I could find on Youtube was Doyle Clan Irish Stick Fighting.  The Korean techniques that I learned looked about 75% Doyle style and 25% Hanbo basics from Japanese Hanbojitsu.  The energy of it was definitely more like the Doyle style.  Other Irish stick fighting styles were closer to the hooked cane techniques that I have seen.   The Doyle system seems to also have some more advanced techniques very similar to Hapkido locks and holds.  Martial talk has a thread on its Western martial arts forum called "Bataireacht" which is the Irish word for their stick fighting art.

Don Daly


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## arnisador

The Doyle material is very interesting and I would love to have a chance to play with them but it does look to me like there may have been more recent outside influences on it in addition to the original material--I wonder how representative it truly is of Irish stick-fighting of 200 years ago?


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## Don Daly

According to the sources that I have seen.  All the Irish stick-fighting systems are trying to stay true to the original techniques passed down since their main motivation in teaching them is cultural preservation.  That being said, Doyle himself adds techniques using a sliding hand, as in Korean/Japanese smooth stick systems, but once learned, he informs his students that they are not part of the original and shows them comparable released hand techniques.  This is because (as he explains and demonstrates) a sliding hand does not work on a traditional Irish blackthorn walking stick (long shillelagh) due to its thorny/ruff surface.  Doyle is also a master of Kung Fu, but he seams to be careful about showing what is authentic vs. his own modifications.
As far as Koreans/Irish or other oppressed peoples underground cultures.  I think we should take their word on their own history unless they have been proven wrong.  No oppressed culture is going to have documentation, since that is one of the first things a conquering culture will destroy when they are trying to make good "Japenese" or "Englishmen" out of them.  Requiring them to document everything that has been passed on is neither fair nor does it show a lack of prejudice.  I would rather take the word of the oppressed than the oppressor on any such issue.  This is one reason I will listen to the Japanese American who survived unlawful imprisonment during WWII.  This should never happen again.

Don Daly


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## arnisador

There's no doubt that modern KMAs overwhelmingly come from Japanese systems and were developed post-WW2. They've developed into their own systems, but that's the basis.


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## Don Daly

If you do not know Taekkyon, which is definitely pre-Japanese, then you may not realize that it is definitely one of the roots to many of Korea's eclectic arts.  I personally think that it should replace taekwondo as Korean's national sport.  You can find a number of different videos showing Taekkyon training and matches on youtube.

Meanwhile, I thought this thread was about Korean stick arts, not Japanese.  Just saying...

Don Daly


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## generalneon

I have heard about the Korean style called Tae Geuk Bong. I've seen the sticks, colored red and blue, and a poster showing the different exercises and strike points, but never seen them used in a match or in any exercises. Can't find any information on it online, either. There was some sort of seminar in my area for local tang soo do masters to learn about it.


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## swordway

This thread is probably dead but I live and train in South Korea (gojeon muye) and my school does do kon bong. The techniques are derived from the Muyedobotongji and like all MYDBTJ material, every school has its own way of interpreting the text.


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## Raymond

There's not much that I can add to this thread since I don't train in a stick or weapons art, but many of the traditional hard blocks often seem to be better suited to stick or weapon fighting rather than unarmed combat.  Upward block, inner and outer block, low block, x-block etc can all be better suited to being either a hard block or strike (directly stopping the force of an attack) or a soft technique (to deflect, parry or trap a weapon). Even more obvious are many hand strikes such as hammer fists, knife hands, ridge hands and so on.  

If you use them in this way and also look at TKD, TSD, HKD etc as Korean arts then you can find Korean stick techniques.  Definitely not a complete all encompassing stick or weapon system that you might find such as Kali or Escrima but easily enough to give the typical TKD/TSD/HKD student a leg up when armed with a stick against an untrained thug who has a pipe, wrench, stick or whatever.


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## thanson02

From what I have seen, Korean MA history has been a mix of Chinese, Japanese, and various other sources.  Many people seem to focus on liniage or authentic material.  To be honest, my personal feelings are that what makes a Korean Martial Art is how it is done, not where it comes from.

That being said, the Bongtoogi program in Hwa Rang Do has a lot if good stuff.  I train in it, even took first place last year in our World Tournaments in the staff sparring division and placed in the others.  Is it authentic????  Since it was recently developed to apply the HRD staff technique, I would say no, but it is effective and it certainly is Korean.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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