# Forms (kata) opcional??



## Manny (Apr 26, 2018)

Last nigth I had a nice chat with my kenpo master because I was worried about the kenpo forms, in fact my master does not teach forms or very little, so I was a little ansius and finally we had the chat.

Master told me for him forms are irrelevant because he thin ks is best to work hard on the self defense techs (about 150) and be profidient on them than fooling aroun doing forms.

Are forms so relevant in kenpo karate?

For me katas are nice but are not so important, you see, In TKD I have to learn 4 basic forms (quinchos), 8 taeguks (poomsae), and for 1st dan,2nd dan and 3rd dan, Kuryo, Kungam and Taebek forms, I think this is too much I would rather learna and perform well three or four forms and do them very well.

Any how kenpo forms are weird for me.

Any tougths?

El Manny


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## Tez3 (Apr 26, 2018)

I know little about kenpo so can't help I'm afraid, I just wanted to wave hello and say nice to see you!


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## Kababayan (Apr 26, 2018)

I like forms, especially the Kenpo ones (although I think the stick form should be re-worked).  You will get a lot of differing opinions as to if they are effective for self defense, but that would be presumming that self defense is the absolute end goal for all martial arts techniques.  I understand what your instructor is saying; that perfecting a 7 move technique is just as beneficial as a 40 move form, however I like forms for endurance, technique perfection, fluidity, balance...all of the standard benefits of forms.  One reason that I think forms are important is to keep us life-long martial artists from getting bored.   The MA system I taught has 14 forms required for Black.  That may seem like a bit much I always enjoyed learning forms.  Regarding if forms are relevant or important, for every argument for forms there will be an argument against them.  If your instructor doesn't find relevance in forms, then his students probably won't find relevance in them either.


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## Headhunter (Apr 26, 2018)

Kenpo forms are there for a reason they fit the progression of the self defence. The first form teaches you about retreating and blocking your centre line, the second form is the same but with a counter strike, the third is stepping into an attack with a block, the next is the same but with a counter and then all the forms are literally nothing but self defence techniques strung together done at different angles and done on both sides.

At the end of the day if you get a black belt from this guy and you go into another kenpo school wearing a black belt but don't know the very first form that white belts know you're going to look silly.

Honestly I'd question him if he actually knows the forms because I've seen it before guys only refuse to teach them because they don't understand them


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 26, 2018)

i might add that originally kenpo didnt have any forms.  they were added along the way by different people.  i would say they are only as important as you make them.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 26, 2018)

I was a shodan in the Tracy lineage of kenpo, and many of the kata are the same or nearly identical with those used in other lineages of Parker kenpo.

In my opinion, the kenpo kata are not well designed, and do not give you anything that you are not already getting from the other training.

I generally do like kata practice.  I do not feel that the kenpo kata are worth practicing.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 26, 2018)

I do not know the Kenpo kata in anyway at all. However, if I assume they're similar in function to the TKD poomsae I am most familiar with (6 Kicho, 8 Palgwae, 8 Taegeuk, 9 Yudanja and 24 Chang Hon) then I'd say that if you're practicing the kata properly, you _*are*_ becoming developing your self defense skills.


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## donald1 (Apr 27, 2018)

I've never practiced kenpo forms so my opinion I probably irrelevant. Anyway, imo I can only imagine they are as useful as any other style. With that being said I believe of course they are useful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2018)

Manny said:


> Last nigth I had a nice chat with my kenpo master because I was worried about the kenpo forms, in fact my master does not teach forms or very little, so I was a little ansius and finally we had the chat.
> 
> Master told me for him forms are irrelevant because he thin ks is best to work hard on the self defense techs (about 150) and be profidient on them than fooling aroun doing forms.
> 
> ...


I'm not familiar with Kenpo forms, but my opinion is that they are never necessary. (And that comes from someone who created new forms, as part of my curriculum!) Forms are a teaching tool, and I think it's possible to focus on them too much. It's also possible to dismiss them as useless too quickly. I've found them useful, but I also am very careful that they shouldn't become the focus of training. I have two personal reasons why I like them: the give some regimented practice for solo work when there's no equipment (heavy bag, etc.) available, and they are a good option for training when injured. 

I think the culture of many arts has the forms so ingrained that folks tend to think of the forms as defining the art. IMO, that's a mistaken view (others will disagree with me on that). Forms are a tool, and any art taught with them can also be taught without them, and vice-versa.


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## Manny (Apr 27, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not familiar with Kenpo forms, but my opinion is that they are never necessary. (And that comes from someone who created new forms, as part of my curriculum!) Forms are a teaching tool, and I think it's possible to focus on them too much. It's also possible to dismiss them as useless too quickly. I've found them useful, but I also am very careful that they shouldn't become the focus of training. I have two personal reasons why I like them: the give some regimented practice for solo work when there's no equipment (heavy bag, etc.) available, and they are a good option for training when injured.
> 
> I think the culture of many arts has the forms so ingrained that folks tend to think of the forms as defining the art. IMO, that's a mistaken view (others will disagree with me on that). Forms are a tool, and any art taught with them can also be taught without them, and vice-versa.



I agree with you. I am a Taekwondoing and poomsae (forms) are something integral to the learning of the art, I like them and love to practice them as a part of my technical formation, don't over do them as you call, but practice them regulary. Rigth now I returned to Kenpo Karate and quite franckly I don't like the kenpo forms and I don't want to learn them because with the poomsae I already know I feel complete.

Manny


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## Manny (Apr 27, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Kenpo forms are there for a reason they fit the progression of the self defence. The first form teaches you about retreating and blocking your centre line, the second form is the same but with a counter strike, the third is stepping into an attack with a block, the next is the same but with a counter and then all the forms are literally nothing but self defence techniques strung together done at different angles and done on both sides.
> 
> At the end of the day if you get a black belt from this guy and you go into another kenpo school wearing a black belt but don't know the very first form that white belts know you're going to look silly.
> 
> Honestly I'd question him if he actually knows the forms because I've seen it before guys only refuse to teach them because they don't understand them



I am currenlty a black belt in TKD and for the tecnical sake I think learning the kenpo forms could be a lost of time, because technically I know what I have to do to defend myself. Don't get me wrong offcourse I would like to learn some kenpo forms but not as to be need it to learn them, maybe for fun anc a little challenge but thats all.  I would like the kenpo to enrich my TKD .

Manny


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## oldsoldier2006 (May 20, 2018)

I see things a little differently. I think forms/kata are fairly valuable at first. Demonstrating the ability to execute a series of movements in sequence, with each form/kata getting incrementally more difficult is a testament to the grasping of the concepts of your chosen art. I can see the other side of the argument in saying that forms can be used as belt marketing tools (you can't have X belt until you have learned X form, etc.) or from a self defense standpoint, forms/katas don't really help you. I think forms exist to demonstrate proficiency in certain principles inherent in the style of your choice. They're also a GREAT way to work up a sweat.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2018)

Manny said:


> self defense techs (about 150) ...


How do you remember those 150 self defense techniques (1 , 2, ... 149, 150)? Have you ever considered to link your 150 SD moves into 3 or 4 forms?

If you have linked your 150 SD moves into 3 forms, do you prefer to train your old forms, or do you prefer to train your new forms?


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## Headhunter (May 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you remember those 150 self defense techniques (1 , 2, ... 149, 150)? Have you ever considered to link your 150 SD moves into 3 or 4 forms?
> 
> If you have linked your 150 SD moves into 3 forms, do you prefer to train your old forms, or do you prefer to train your new forms?


They have names that help remember. For example the second technique is called alternating maces. In kenpo your fists are your maces and the the technique is step back block reverse punch followed by a back knuckle so your alternating your strikes hence alternating maces


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> They have names that help remember. For example the second technique is called alternating maces. In kenpo your fists are your maces and the the technique is step back block reverse punch followed by a back knuckle so your alternating your strikes hence alternating maces


Even with names, 150 individual moves (or combos) are still hard to remember. I had attended a Karate black belt test. In that test, 64 self-defense moves were required. The tester had to remember the moves, names, and order. If you link those 64 moves into 1 or 2 forms, it will be easier to remember.

Here is a "modern" form that link 37 moves together. It's not easy to tell whether this form is ancient or modern.


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## Headhunter (May 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even with names, 150 individual moves (or combos) are still hard to remember. I had attended a Karate black belt test. In that test, 64 self-defense moves were required. The tester had to remember the moves, names, and order. If you link those 64 moves into 1 or 2 forms, it will be easier to remember.
> 
> Here is a "modern" form that link 37 moves together. It's not easy to tell whether this form is ancient or modern.


Nah waste of time and effort they're self defence techniques so they need to be done on a partner not as a form. It's not hard to remember if you practice it enough


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you remember those 150 self defense techniques (1 , 2, ... 149, 150)? Have you ever considered to link your 150 SD moves into 3 or 4 forms?
> 
> If you have linked your 150 SD moves into 3 forms, do you prefer to train your old forms, or do you prefer to train your new forms?


When I created the Classical kata for NGA, I took the first 10 Classical techniques' forms (2-man forms) and linked them into a solo form. This did seem to help students more quickly remember even that small number of short forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> When I created the Classical kata for NGA, I took the first 10 Classical techniques' forms (2-man forms) and linked them into a solo form. This did seem to help students more quickly remember even that small number of short forms.


I'm thinking about to add "modern form creation" as part of the black belt testing requirement for our association. It's not easy to create a 24 moves form (I like the number of 24) that the

- 1st move can be used to set up the 2nd move.
- 2nd move can be used to set up the 3rd move.
- ...
- 22th move can be used to set up the 23th move.
- 23th move can be used to set up the 24th move.

It will require deep MA knowledge.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 20, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm thinking about to add "modern form creation" as part of the black belt testing requirement for our association. It's not easy to create a 24 moves form (I like the number of 24) that the
> 
> - 1st move can be used to set up the 2nd move.
> - 2nd move can be used to set up the 3rd move.
> ...


I had considered making kata creation a requirement for instructor certification, though that was mostly on the assumption that someone would create some better kata than my own.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I had considered making kata creation a requirement for instructor certification, though that was mostly on the assumption that someone would create some better kata than my own.


There is a park dancing group in California.






Many years ago I created a "dancing form" for them.






This was the music that I used. If you start the music at 0.30 and then start the form clip, the music and form will match. That form was designed for this music only.


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