# free grappling in Modern Arnis?



## twinkletoes (Jul 11, 2003)

Hi Guys,

I'm wondering how many people out there who practice Modern Arnis engage in any kind of free-grappling.  

I haven't been around the Arnis block as long as some people (only about 12 years), so I don't know what too many others do.  Certainly the style has a good amount of dumog and ju-jitsu techniques in it.  

The reason the question comes up at this time is that some of the newer groundfighting techniques I'm seeing are a little less practical or realistic than others.  I don't want to sound like I'm bashing any camp, but some of the techniques strike me as unrealistic.  One of my contemporaries came back from a recent camp and showed me one that I found really unrealistic, and so I showed him how to tweak it and we got going on a good discussion of Arnis + groundwork.  

Now, before I open this up, I realize a couple of things:

1)  Arnis is not meant to be a groundfighting art, but it addresses it.
2)  Arnis groundfighting is meant to be used after you have already hit, thrown, and disoriented your opponent. 
3)  Arnis groundfighting is based predominantly on Arnis standup locking.  

Then again, I also realize:

4)  Professor Presas was a (5th dan?) Judo practitioner.  


My question is still "how many people engage in free grappling, either standing or on the ground, as part of their Arnis training?"


~TT

PS- I will introduce grappling w/ weapons as a separate topic at a later time.  Right now I'm just talking about empty hand grappling.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *Hi Guys,
> 
> I'm wondering how many people out there who practice Modern Arnis engage in any kind of free-grappling.
> ...




TT,

Hey I do my art on the ground. A joint lock to the wrist standing or onthe ground. A joint lock to the wrist can be translated to the Ankle. Am I a great one on one ground fighter? Nope! I try to break free and get moving ASAP, to avoid friends of my enemy. Just my preference and my experiences in life. No Disrespect emant to anyone.

So, does Modern Arnis have ground fighting techniques and or capabilities? Yes? Is it a Ground Fighting Art? Nope! The Principals and Concepts of Modern Arnis should be able to be applied in any range. "Go with the Flow"


As to the 5th Degree in Judo, I know he had rank in Shoto Kan, yet I cannot say anything about Judo. I never knew of GM R Presas holding official Rank in Judo. That does not mean it is not true, since I do not know everything there is to know .

Enjoy
:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Jul 11, 2003)

Hi Rich,

I agree with the things you've said.  I train a lot of BJJ, but with the intention of being able to escape and get back to my feet should I ever wind up on the ground.  

While I like your answers and I'm glad you responded, if you'll forgive me, I think your comments are not quite answers to what I asked    Perhaps I should ask it more clearly:

What I want to know is how many Modern Arnis practitioners grapple against freely resisting opponents.  I mean, do you practice your ankle locks (which I fully admit are within Arnis and I earned a few from the Professor at various camps) against anyone who is trying to stop you.  Is it "competitive?"  Do you "spar" it?

What I've noticed is that in the past few years there is an emphasis within the Modern Arnis groundwork on either immobilizing or finishing a thrown opponent.  Does anyone try these moves against people who are wrestling back?

~TT

PS- As for the Professor's rank in Judo, I had heard previously that he was a "black belt" in judo.  At last year's Cromwell camp Rany Shea mentioned that he was actually a godan, or 5th dan.  But I personally can't back that up with paperwork


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## arnisador (Jul 11, 2003)

I have also heard that the Prof. was a 5th degree black belt in Judo. I believe it (and recall having to teach the hip throw on the grass in Michigan one year!) but did not see any paperwork.

The Prof. would often teach how to control a person once you had taken them down but any actual grappling on the ground as impromptu. I myself have added BJJ (I'm a beginner at it).

I believe that Mr. Delaney teaches some groundfighting in his Modern Arnis.


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## Brian Johns (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I have also heard that the Prof. was a 5th degree black belt in Judo. I believe it (and recall having to teach the hip throw on the grass in Michigan one year!) but did not see any paperwork.
> 
> The Prof. would often teach how to control a person once you had taken them down but any actual grappling on the ground as impromptu. I myself have added BJJ (I'm a beginner at it).
> ...



My understanding of this topic is that the emphasis is on ground control of your opponent rather than the classic grappling or ground fighting that is characteristic of BJJ or some of the Pencak Silat Harimau systems.

As for Professor's Judo background, it's my understanding that he achieved rank in Judo, but I have never been clear as to how high he went. But it was evident to me that he had Judo/JJ experience from watching him.

Take care,
Brian


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *I have also heard that the Prof. was a 5th degree black belt in Judo. I believe it (and recall having to teach the hip throw on the grass in Michigan one year!) but did not see any paperwork.
> 
> The Prof. would often teach how to control a person once you had taken them down but any actual grappling on the ground as impromptu. I myself have added BJJ (I'm a beginner at it).
> ...



Arnisador,

I agree he had great knowledge of the techniques.

I remember seeing his name in a published book that listed Shoto Kan and 5th degree. As to the Judo I did not see any such book. This does not mean it never existed, only I cannot verify it.

Sorry for causing more confusion wiht my previous post.
:asian:


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## twinkletoes (Jul 11, 2003)

arnisador,

You're right!  The Professor demonstrated great knowledge of standing grappling.  Certainly his footwork (or lack thereof, most days) indicates the high level that his balance had reached.  His ability to off-balance the rest of us, well.....I'm sure we can all attest to that.

Also, I have heard that Mr. Delaney has a BJJ background.  I have not heard anything about him mixing the two, except for an anecdote about him and Kevin McManus breaking into a full-on grappling match at a seminar.  

I too have added BJJ to my repertoire.  It's nice to be a total neophyte again, with no chance of jumping ahead (although getting my blue has really changed things....)  


WhoopAss,

That is exactly my understanding too--that it's about controlling rather than re-engaging your opponent on the ground (although a couple of the armbar variations make me wonder....)

Perhaps I should mention that I use the term "spar" loosely.  Has anyone tried to restrain a fully non-compliant partner who is allowed to resist however they like with the ground techniques?


Folks, 

If I sound like I'm getting at something, I am, but it's not ulterior.  I'm not trying to build up to some "those techniques suck" tirade or anything like that.  I genuinely want to know if people try them out against resistance, and which ones they like or don't like.  I find that some of them are really good, while a couple are really less reliable when the other guy stops playing along.  But those are *my* personal findings.  I want to know what others have found.....

Best,

~Chris


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 11, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *. . .
> Perhaps I should mention that I use the term "spar" loosely.  Has anyone tried to restrain a fully non-compliant partner who is allowed to resist however they like with the ground techniques?
> 
> ...



Oh Yes, I have tired with drunks and those on drugs. Most were sore, from the resistance, and one broke his wrist, pushing me off him when I had him in a goose neck come along behind him and using my weight to assist in the pin. So, did it work? Nope. What did work? A long story involving multiple police officers and finally one of them just standing on his head. Yes I said standing on his head. Not just trapping his head, with pressure, but standing on his head and grinding it into the pavement. Personally, I am surprise the police restrained themselves so well, after he had bit many of them and punched them until the cuffs were on, and hten he did more kicking afterwards. Which required the officer to stand on his head again to get his attention for them to cuff his feet and then to throw him into the back of a car, to be taken to the hospital for care and drug testing. 

Not sure if this is what you were looking for.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Not sure if this is what you were looking for. *



My original question was about training, but I think I can accept that as an answer  

Thank you.

~TT


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## Seigi (Jul 15, 2003)

I have a few student s who have college wrestling experience & one who is currently training in Gracie Ju-jitsu, so when we can , they show basic ground defenses & controls, from the guard, mount, half-mount, etc...
Then we practice Free-grappling against one another to see what we can make work & what still needs more practice.

So we basically integrate the grappling arts to help our own training.

Peace


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

We've done some grappling in class before, just build ground sensitivity.

Modern Arnis Dumog basically works like this: guy falls down, you break him quickly. Or the modifies version: guy falls down, lock and control.

Many of the modern Arnis Dumog techniques wouldn't work against a BJJ guy on the "mat," but it isn't intended for that. It is intended to be used on that guy on the street with 4 friends behind him, if you get my drift.

However, I do find value in doing submission wrestling, just to get a feel for what it is like to be on the ground, even though combatively I wouldn't want to hang out there for a long time.


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## twinkletoes (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *However, I do find value in doing submission wrestling, just to get a feel for what it is like to be on the ground, even though combatively I wouldn't want to hang out there for a long time.*



Me neither.  And that's why I've been focusing on BJJ for the past year (and the next few, I might add).  I don't want to get stuck down there when his friends show up!



> Modern Arnis Dumog basically works like this: guy falls down, you break him quickly. Or the modifies version: guy falls down, lock and control.



I know, don't you just love it?  My concern is the second one--I don't think some people practice controlling on guys who are trying to get out!  (Paul, you already said that you do drills with these, so please don't think I'm aiming this at you.)



> It is intended to be used on that guy on the street with 4 friends behind him, if you get my drift.



That's my point exactly.  You said that you test these things out:  who else does too?  

And who out there just *thinks* it works?  Come on, 'fess up!   

~TT


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## Cruentus (Jul 15, 2003)

I especially "test out" on newbies who are bigger then me, and who are fairly tough. People who want to "feel" it.

I say, "and if they resist" and I tell them to resist. 

This usually results in them grunting in a lot of pain. 

This will make a believer out of anyone, but most importantly it makes a believer out of me in that now I know that my own technique works!


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## MJS (Jul 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *I especially "test out" on newbies who are bigger then me, and who are fairly tough. People who want to "feel" it.
> 
> I say, "and if they resist" and I tell them to resist.
> ...



Very True!!  Feeling is believing!!!!

MJS


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