# animal styles effective?



## JadeDragon3 (Dec 26, 2007)

This topic might have been already discussed on this forum and if it has I'm sorry posting this question again. I recently got in a big debate on another chat forum about this topic. My question that I would like to pose to everyone is this.....Are the different animal styles of kung fu such as tiger, snake, crane, etc.... effective in real fight situations? This includes the different hand strikes that that particular style uses such as crane beak or tiger claw or spear hand strikes. Can these strikes be used for real against a real opponent that is fighting back? I contend that if the student has been training right then of course these styles and techniques will work. I feel that a person can incorporate any of these strikes in with your "normal" hand strikes such as jab, uppercut, cross jab, etc... The key is to know when to use the strike and to what part of the opponents body ity is best suited for. What is everyone else's oppinion. I've been told by many on another forum that TMA's are no good for self defense on the street.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

If trained properly they are effective and have been for a very long time.

But your question:

Animal styles, there are a lot of them.
Strikes with animal names there are lots of them.
Styles with forms in them, there are lots of them.

And if trained properly "and understood" they all work.

And yes this has been discussed on MT a few times before


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 26, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I've been told by many on another forum that TMA's are no good for self defense on the street.


 
That's just because they don't understand the matterial presented. I've seen a video (on Youtube) that shows whats called Frog Kung Fu. The form they showed would never work in a real fight, the attacks are simply to unrealistic. However, I imagine that the form is more about conditioning, since the guy went from basicly prone to 5 feet in the air, kicking with both legs. Many things in martial arts are like this, not combat effective in of itself, but is about developing somehting else.


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## JadeDragon3 (Dec 26, 2007)

I have heard of a style patterned after a frog. Sounds strange to me. I am unable to get youtube at my work. What are the charactoristics of frog style and if it has no practical self defense application then why would you teach or learn it? I'm sure there are other exercises that would benifit you just as good and that have some type of street applicability.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I have heard of a style patterned after a frog. Sounds strange to me. I am unable to get youtube at my work. What are the charactoristics of frog style and if it has no practical self defense application then why would you teach or learn it? I'm sure there are other exercises that would benifit you just as good and that have some type of street applicability.


 
I never heard of Frog style where did you get this from?

However me not hearing about frog style does not mean it does not exist but I have to say I am doubtful.


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## tellner (Dec 26, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I have heard of a style patterned after a frog. Sounds strange to me. I am unable to get youtube at my work. What are the charactoristics of frog style and if it has no practical self defense application then why would you teach or learn it? I'm sure there are other exercises that would benifit you just as good and that have some type of street applicability.



Let's see...

A frog waits with complete patience in utter relaxed concentration. When the time and distance are right she strikes with blinding speed and kills quickly. She hides from creatures too big to kill and has powerful legs. Some of her kind are deadly poison and destroy anyone who tries to harm them. 

Those are all useful metaphors that can be developed as training aids. 

As far as it goes, both Chinese Dog Boxing and Harimau (Tiger) style Silat are animal-influenced groundfighting styles. Both have well deserved reputations as good practical systems with many useful lessons for actual self defense.


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## tellner (Dec 26, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> I never heard of Frong style where did you get this from?
> 
> However me not hearing about frog style does not mean it does not exist but I have to say I am doubtful.



Haven't you seen _Kung Fu Hustle_ or _The Five Deadly Venoms_ ?

I have a video lying around of someone showing Toad Style Chinese forms. Haven't seen it yet, and I don't have much hope that it will be anything except performance Wu Shu by this time. If there actually is such a style which has retained some combative efficiency I'd love to see it. Sometimes a Toad's gotta do what a Toad's gotta do...


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

tellner said:


> Haven't you seen _Kung Fu Hustle_ or _The Five Deadly Venoms_ ?


 
nope



tellner said:


> I have a video lying around of someone showing Toad Style Chinese forms. Haven't seen it yet, and I don't have much hope that it will be anything except performance Wu Shu by this time. If there actually is such a style which has retained some combative efficiency I'd love to see it. Sometimes a Toad's gotta do what a Toad's gotta do...


 
Is this from an alleged traditional root, something new and made up or a movie?


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## clfsean (Dec 26, 2007)

Frog fu is a PRC Shaolin Wushu thing. No viable applications I've seen in it (both here in the States & in China at Shaolin), but the guys who play it have got mad ups from a nearly prone position on the floor. I'd look at it more as a gei boon gung or gung lik tool than a fighting thing.

Animal strikes are fine if you know how, when & where to apply them with maximum benefit. Regardless of the arguments & "Oh my sifu says..." stories out there or personal lines of BS for impressing friends & family, 99.99999% of us aren't using CMA to defend ourselves with on a daily basis. Therefore I'd proffer to the mob that most CMA animal positions are for keeping the CMAs alive & keep with the fist closed, clenched & tight at impact or the palm tight & locked with the fingers pulled back out of the way and call it a day. Condition your hands, arms & legs for the in case of event & pray it's never used that way, but keep it simple, real & safe for your use. Close the fist or tighten the palm. 

I dig my animals I learn in CLF & can use a selected one or two but the others... I'll just club you with a fist instead of trying to strike a pose from the Shaw Bros if it's all the same.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Frog fu is a PRC Shaolin Wushu thing. No viable applications I've seen in it (both here in the States & in China at Shaolin), but the guys who play it have got mad ups from a nearly prone position on the floor. I'd look at it more as a gei boon gung or gung lik tool than a fighting thing.
> 
> Animal strikes are fine if you know how, when & where to apply them with maximum benefit. Regardless of the arguments & "Oh my sifu says..." stories out there or personal lines of BS for impressing friends & family, 99.99999% of us aren't using CMA to defend ourselves with on a daily basis. Therefore I'd proffer to the mob that most CMA animal positions are for keeping the CMAs alive & keep with the fist closed, clenched & tight at impact or the palm tight & locked with the fingers pulled back out of the way and call it a day. Condition your hands, arms & legs for the in case of event & pray it's never used that way, but keep it simple, real & safe for your use. Close the fist or tighten the palm.
> 
> I dig my animals I learn in CLF & can use a selected one or two but the others... I'll just club you with a fist instead of trying to strike a pose from the Shaw Bros if it's all the same.


 
That would be why I have never heard of it, I do not know any of the new and unimproved Wushu forms

With that said, I will tell you what my taiji sifu says about the cranes beak.

Used rarely as a strike and makes a better hook block to control and open up your opponent so you can hit him.

And I have to say the Hebei XIngyiquan Tiger form is very cool and very effective for what it was made for, not arguing or adding anything I just really like the Xinyi Tiger form. :EG:


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## tellner (Dec 26, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> nope


If Chuck Jones had done a Kung Fu movie it would have been _Kung Fu Hustle_. It was sidesplittingly funny. 

_The Five Deadly Venoms_ was a black-and-white 70s film about five martial artists who variously practiced Scorpion, Lizard, Centipede, Snake and (my favorite) Toad style with usual complement of overacting, bad dialog and supernatural wire work.



> Is this from an alleged traditional root, something new and made up or a movie?


I don't know if there was a historical combative Frog style.


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## Xue Sheng (Dec 26, 2007)

tellner said:


> If Chuck Jones had done a Kung Fu movie it would have been _Kung Fu Hustle_. It was sidesplittingly funny.
> 
> _The Five Deadly Venoms_ was a black-and-white 70s film about five martial artists who variously practiced Scorpion, Lizard, Centipede, Snake and (my favorite) Toad style with usual complement of overacting, bad dialog and supernatural wire work.


 
I shall have to check it out



tellner said:


> I don't know if there was a historical combative Frog style.


 
It appears that it wasn't


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## jks9199 (Dec 26, 2007)

tellner said:


> If Chuck Jones had done a Kung Fu movie it would have been _Kung Fu Hustle_. It was sidesplittingly funny.
> 
> _The Five Deadly Venoms_ was a black-and-white 70s film about five martial artists who variously practiced Scorpion, Lizard, Centipede, Snake and (my favorite) Toad style with usual complement of overacting, bad dialog and supernatural wire work.
> 
> ...


I've seen _Five Deadly Venoms_ in color... Each fighter wore a mask during their training, representing their style, so they never saw each other's face, right?


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## kaizasosei (Dec 26, 2007)

have you seen the scorpion style.  i don't know if it is purely a movie creation.  but back in the ninetees, there was an excellent kungfu movie showing showing this scorpion style with the actor whose name i don't know off hand, has this long hair that covers one side of his face.
  anyhow, if one looks hard, clips can be found on youtube.  also, i saw that there is a new movie coming out that is suposed to be a kind of sequel or remake of the original.   as a youngster, i used to enjoy watching the film.

about animal styles in general, i think that they are quite good.  whilst i think it is not good to limit oneself too much by focusing only on one style, i find that animal forms and simple mimicing of animals, seem to me to bring out all kinds of powerful movements and clever strategies,


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## gblnking (Dec 27, 2007)

clfsean said:


> Frog fu is a PRC Shaolin Wushu thing. No viable applications I've seen in it (both here in the States & in China at Shaolin), but the guys who play it have got mad ups from a nearly prone position on the floor. I'd look at it more as a gei boon gung or gung lik tool than a fighting thing.
> 
> Animal strikes are fine if you know how, when & where to apply them with maximum benefit. Regardless of the arguments & "Oh my sifu says..." stories out there or personal lines of BS for impressing friends & family, 99.99999% of us aren't using CMA to defend ourselves with on a daily basis. Therefore I'd proffer to the mob that most CMA animal positions are for keeping the CMAs alive & keep with the fist closed, clenched & tight at impact or the palm tight & locked with the fingers pulled back out of the way and call it a day. Condition your hands, arms & legs for the in case of event & pray it's never used that way, but keep it simple, real & safe for your use. Close the fist or tighten the palm.
> 
> I dig my animals I learn in CLF & can use a selected one or two but the others... I'll just club you with a fist instead of trying to strike a pose from the Shaw Bros if it's all the same.


 
Amen


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## clfsean (Dec 27, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> have you seen the scorpion style. i don't know if it is purely a movie creation. but back in the ninetees, there was an excellent kungfu movie showing showing this scorpion style with the actor whose name i don't know off hand, has this long hair that covers one side of his face.


 
Same same as PRC Shaolin wushu or movie fu.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 27, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I have heard of a style patterned after a frog. Sounds strange to me. I am unable to get youtube at my work. What are the charactoristics of frog style and if it has no practical self defense application then why would you teach or learn it? I'm sure there are other exercises that would benifit you just as good and that have some type of street applicability.


 
The techniques inpolyed at less then useful, but they are about conditioning. I beleive (from the description of the video) that it's done as a part of Shaolin, so that is propably why it exists.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 27, 2007)

kaizasosei said:


> have you seen the scorpion style. i don't know if it is purely a movie creation.


 
I saw a clip of Scorpion Style on youtube, I don't think it's from a movie


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## HG1 (Dec 27, 2007)

JadeDragon3 said:


> ***EDIT*** Are the different animal styles of kung fu such as tiger, snake, crane, etc.... effective in real fight situations? This includes the different hand strikes that that particular style uses such as crane beak or tiger claw or spear hand strikes. Can these strikes be used for real against a real opponent that is fighting back?


 
Yes they work effectively, even on real opponents who are fighting back. :wink2:


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## kaizasosei (Dec 27, 2007)

i think this is the new movie.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=T63MDKnZwCA&feature=related 

it may be the original but to me it looks like a new one.  the original seemed less corny and better.  -
  anyways the guy acting the scorpion style is the one with the kungfu skater doo.

j


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 1, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> have you seen the scorpion style. i don't know if it is purely a movie creation. but back in the ninetees, there was an excellent kungfu movie showing showing this scorpion style with the actor whose name i don't know off hand, has this long hair that covers one side of his face.


 
I have seen the movie and I do think that the style is an artifice of the cinema.  Afterall, the film also includes the infamous eel style as a direct counter to the scorpion.  Now eel style has the practitioner flopping around on the ground like an eel out of water.  You can make you're own mind up about that.


As Xue pointed out, there are hundreds of these animal styles,but when you look really carefully, there are only about twenty that are in any way common.  The five Shaolin animals, the twelve animals of Xingyi (quite a bit of overlap between those two groups), mantis, monkey, dog pretty much covers those styles that clearly have something strong to offer.  These animals are found all over the place, in many different styles.  This suggests to me that there is something usueful in those styles.

Are they effective?  Well I would have to say yes they are.  But their effectiveness is not based in Crane pecks, Mantis fists, or Snake hands, rather it is in the concepts that are embodied in the animals styles.  Take Monkey for example.  You could caper about like a monkey if you wanted to.  You're opponent would probably think you were crazy and leave you alone.  Or you could try to understand that the capering is really about subterfuge and distraction.  Its about diverting your opponent's attention so that you can land that effective blow.

In my own art there are three animal styles.  Tiger, Snake and Dragon.  Its Bagua so the primary weapon is the palm.  I don't intend to hit people with Tiger and Dragon claws.  
The Tiger teaches how to employ power efficiently and effectively.  
The Snake teaches how to distract and immobilise (with qinna primarily).  
The Dragon teaches balanced and controlled movement.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 1, 2008)

Agreed



Steel Tiger said:


> Tiger and Dragon claws.


 
Also Tiger claw (back in the old days) was big on Iron palm training particularly the fingers

Eagle claw was big on attacking pressure points and weak spots.

Dragon I know so little about but it is my understanding it was a rather hard hitting style that took its name more form the main stance than its strikes, but as I said I know little about it so I could be wrong.


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## Steel Tiger (Jan 1, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Dragon I know so little about but it is my understanding it was a rather hard hitting style *that took its name more form the main stance than its strikes*, but as I said I know little about it so I could be wrong.


 
This is exactly my point.  Your understanding of where Dragon gets its name gels very well with my own experience of the style.  The Dragon I do is the Swimming Dragon Bagua form from Emei.  The strikes are all pretty straightforward - palms and punches, a lot of grabbing too, but the movement around the circle is where it gets its name.


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## TaiChiTJ (Jan 1, 2008)

You can find "Frog Fist" a little farther than halfway down the list. Number 1084, I think. The guy does actually look like he is imitating a frog. 


http://www.plumpub.com/sales/vcd3/coll_animal.htm


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## jks9199 (Jan 1, 2008)

There are scorpion styles; I'm aware of at least two, I believe.  I'm certain of the Bando Scorpion System, and I recall hearing about another scorpion system, with different principles from a Chinese martial artist.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 1, 2008)

> I have seen the movie and I do think that the style is an artifice of the cinema. Afterall, the film also includes the infamous eel style as a direct counter to the scorpion. Now eel style has the practitioner flopping around on the ground like an eel out of water. You can make you're own mind up about that.



yeah, that's what i thought.  i had completely forgotten about the eel style and remember it only vaguely.  i saw the movie when i was around 14 or so, so it's a while back.  - i can hardly think of any applications for the eel style though practicing it may have some benefits. ?  
i think the movie is the same and there is no new movie coming out.  i was just duped by the old preview.  things don't look as corny when you're a kid.  although i do remember the movie to be quite good, and the preview on youtube confirms the martial arts ability.




> As Xue pointed out, there are hundreds of these animal styles,but when you look really carefully, there are only about twenty that are in any way common. The five Shaolin animals, the twelve animals of Xingyi (quite a bit of overlap between those two groups), mantis, monkey, dog pretty much covers those styles that clearly have something strong to offer. These animals are found all over the place, in many different styles. This suggests to me that there is something usueful in those styles.
> 
> Are they effective? Well I would have to say yes they are. But their effectiveness is not based in Crane pecks, Mantis fists, or Snake hands, rather it is in the concepts that are embodied in the animals styles. Take Monkey for example. You could caper about like a monkey if you wanted to. You're opponent would probably think you were crazy and leave you alone. Or you could try to understand that the capering is really about subterfuge and distraction. Its about diverting your opponent's attention so that you can land that effective blow.
> 
> ...



thanks for all the great info.  good overview of really interesting stuff.  very well explained. 



j


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## Taijiman (Jan 12, 2008)

Lots of different animal styles out there, some more imitative than others.  Emei seems to have some very expressive forms... Other than the standardized modern wushu competition forms, you also have some forms based on some kind of shamanic dances/qigongs and Chinese opera.  Of course things like this I don't think usually make up the bulk of a martial art... just kind of extra material for public demos, health, or fun (kind of like Lion Dancing, or sword dances).

As for Frog style, since it comes up once in awhile, it's basically a performance/exercise form based on the frog hopping scene from Jet Li's movie.  From what I've seen, you've got some of that frog hopping with a little bit of ditang type ground technique, and maybe even chang quan, mixed in.  Very basic, nothing to interesting I think unless your a kid or like frogs


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## Paul-M (Jan 13, 2008)

I've seen Frog and Scorpion performed by Shaolin monks on stage, it was very impressive and skillful but would never help in combat. However the more common animal forms (the main 5) would definitely be practical.


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