# Teaching MMA as Muay Thai



## Hal Carleton (Aug 31, 2011)

I recently took a free class at a MMA/Muay Thai/BJJ gym and the instructor seemed to be teaching a MMA variant of Muay Thai. The stance was closer to that of a boxer, keeping elbows in and hands close to the face. This is different from what I have seen in pure Muay thai fights and training.

Being new to Muay thai I am unsure what to think about this. Is this common in the states(or elsewhere)? Should avoid this style of Muay thai and look for something more traditional or will I be ok learning this MMA type of Muay thai?

I would like to say that I do respect the instructor as an MMA fighter and instructor. I just have little to no interest in fighting MMA myself.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 31, 2011)

MMA is Mixed Martial Arts. It means they dont teach things purely, they blend using those Bases.

If you want "Pure" MT, go get it. Just dont forget that variations arent always bad.

And REMEMBER: In MT, theres less Grappling, and less Variants. The Stance NEEDS to be different to Accomodate for that. You dont go to an MMA Gym to learn MT. You go to an MMA Gym, and you learn their Techniques which function on Bases. All the Strikes will be MT, or MT Variants. The Stance is probably a stance with one hand near the Ear and the other near the Chin. Thats how it works.

And if you dont want to Fight MMA, why go to an MMA Gym, to learn MT?


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## Hal Carleton (Aug 31, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> MMA is Mixed Martial Arts. It means they dont teach things purely, they blend using those Bases.
> 
> If you want "Pure" MT, go get it. Just dont forget that variations arent always bad.


 
I realize that it isn't bad, and didn't mean to give that impression. It is just not what I'm looking for.

As far as going and getting it, I don't know of any gyms that teach traditional Muay thai in my area. I would love to go to Thailand and train but life gets in the way. I am saving to be able to go and hope to be able to do so by 2013.

Anyways, if my goal is to train and fight traditional Muay thai would it be better to train MMA style Muay thai until I am able to train traditional, or would it better to focus on fitness and conditioning until I have the opportunity to train traditional
Muay thai?


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## Cyriacus (Aug 31, 2011)

Hal Carleton said:


> I realize that it isn't bad, and didn't mean to give that impression. It is just not what I'm looking for.
> 
> As far as going and getting it, I don't know of any gyms that teach traditional Muay thai in my area. I would love to go to Thailand and train but life gets in the way. I am saving to be able to go and hope to be able to do so by 2013.
> 
> ...



Think of it this way: The Techniques will be MT based. In order for them to be MT based, the Teacher needs to know MT. You could ask him if he could show you the "Clean" MT Variants for your own Preference. The Stance is something else you could learn - And if the MT Stances causes you to get MMA'd into Submission, it was your choice to use it, so i dont see why he wouldnt show it.
So by all means - Get the Conditioning, Cardio, and Retrospect. And youll find it easier to learn Base MT if you ever get a chance.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2011)

In MMA we tend to say 'stand up' for all striking obviously standing and 'groundwork' for all the grappling/judo/BJJ stuff, rarely if ever is it MT as such, it will be a mixture of MT, boxing, TKD and karate plus any other styles strikes that work for the person training. The mixture will depend on what suits the person training as far as body size etc goes.
We send out fighters out to Thailand to train at Fairtex and they don't have any problem training MT out there, MMA people are nothing if not adaptable!


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## MTguy (Jun 20, 2022)

Hand position in Muay Thai vary with the fighter. The dutch keep more of a boxing type guard. The thais have more of an open guard because of clinching and catching kicks. More boxing type fighters often are able to batter thais because of this difference. People like Buakaw and now Superbonn and other you see in ONE ahd improved their boxing.

Part of it is scoring in thailand is different. A puch only counts if it moves or damagess an oppnent with the idea that it is easy to punch someone and the many other weapons, kicks, knees, ELBOWS and sweeps. In their mind it takes more skill to achieve clean blows with these than punching someone with a jab. It's ccomplecated for people like us who have grown up with boxing scoring.


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## Martial D (Jun 21, 2022)

Hal Carleton said:


> I recently took a free class at a MMA/Muay Thai/BJJ gym and the instructor seemed to be teaching a MMA variant of Muay Thai. The stance was closer to that of a boxer, keeping elbows in and hands close to the face. This is different from what I have seen in pure Muay thai fights and training.
> 
> Being new to Muay thai I am unsure what to think about this. Is this common in the states(or elsewhere)? Should avoid this style of Muay thai and look for something more traditional or will I be ok learning this MMA type of Muay thai?
> 
> I would like to say that I do respect the instructor as an MMA fighter and instructor. I just have little to no interest in fighting MMA myself.


Sounds like Dutch style MT


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## drop bear (Jun 21, 2022)

My coach fighting muay thai like a MMA fighter.


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## MTguy (Jun 23, 2022)

drop bear said:


> My coach fighting muay thai like a MMA fighter.


While I appreciate what you are saying, that referee had no idea how to referee a fight. I didn't see a single instance of a muay thai clinch. I suspect that was your coaches mma approach. In muay thai, throwing and smothering into the ropes is broken up because no work can be done. I know it's hard to see if you don't watch alot of Muay Thai from Thailand or properly refereed fight. I also feel like your coach didn't want to strike with your coach. catching a kick and sweeping IS a legal and dominant technique. spending 15-20 seconds into the ropes is not. I mean is it a fight? sure. When I was matchmaking as a promoter, I had legit Muay Thai fighters that turned down fights with MMA fighters for this very reason. It's like a boxer who would take a match against a TKD guy who wants to try boxing. It would look horrible and wild. Styles make fights.

A have a feeling that you are tending to say, look MMA style can crush a MT guy. It's like saying a wrestler can crush a boxer in a MMA fight. Neither are MMA fighters they are not competing in their game. The fans miss out and winning that way just to say you beat a MT fighter with MMA means very little in a career. 

Note this video shows how the fighters are clinching off the ropes and in an upright position to throw knees and elbows. Yes, sometimes they end up on the ropes but the referee will break them up if it turns into a situation where one guy is just pinning a guy against the ropes. It's an indication that they don't want to fight. several of the throws in your video are illegal judo or wrestling type throws which are illegal in muay thai.


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## drop bear (Jun 23, 2022)

MTguy said:


> While I appreciate what you are saying, that referee had no idea how to referee a fight. I didn't see a single instance of a muay thai clinch. I suspect that was your coaches mma approach. In muay thai, throwing and smothering into the ropes is broken up because no work can be done. I know it's hard to see if you don't watch alot of Muay Thai from Thailand or properly refereed fight. I also feel like your coach didn't want to strike with your coach. catching a kick and sweeping IS a legal and dominant technique. spending 15-20 seconds into the ropes is not. I mean is it a fight? sure. When I was matchmaking as a promoter, I had legit Muay Thai fighters that turned down fights with MMA fighters for this very reason. It's like a boxer who would take a match against a TKD guy who wants to try boxing. It would look horrible and wild. Styles make fights.
> 
> A have a feeling that you are tending to say, look MMA style can crush a MT guy. It's like saying a wrestler can crush a boxer in a MMA fight. Neither are MMA fighters they are not competing in their game. The fans miss out and winning that way just to say you beat a MT fighter with MMA means very little in a career.
> 
> Note this video shows how the fighters are clinching off the ropes and in an upright position to throw knees and elbows. Yes, sometimes they end up on the ropes but the referee will break them up if it turns into a situation where one guy is just pinning a guy against the ropes. It's an indication that they don't want to fight. several of the throws in your video are illegal judo or wrestling type throws which are illegal in muay thai.



Peter Hickmott isn't a good ref?



			https://m.facebook.com/PeteTheBullHickmottMmaRef/


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## MTguy (Jun 24, 2022)

From that fight, he doesn't know how to ref muay thai. Those clinches were horrible and would have been broken up by a ref who understood his job in as a referee regarding the clinch. Watch the examples of Thais and the clinch.


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## drop bear (Jun 24, 2022)

MTguy said:


> From that fight, he doesn't know how to ref muay thai. Those clinches were horrible and would have been broken up by a ref who understood his job in as a referee regarding the clinch. Watch the examples of Thais and the clinch.



See I would have said that being inactive in the clinch would get you broken up rather than being horrible. (But I will hunt down the rules and have a look.)



Which throws exactly were illegal?


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## MTguy (Jun 25, 2022)

The ref is a MMA ref so clinching to him means a wrestling based form of clinching. A typical MMA mentality is I'll just clinch him so he can't hit me then throw him. In the first and third round he simply held the guy in the corner for way too long. The idea is action of clinch technique. Your coach definitely put the guy down. What I'm saying is this. The 'Thai boxer' looks like his first time out and your coach has training fighting experience from MMA but it was a sloppy and embarassing performance for the Thai boxer and the ref. My problem isn't with you or your coach or the novice thai boxer getting pummelled but you can't fight or train MMA for Muay Thai. Our level here is so low that anything with leg kicks and 'clinching' is called a muay thai fight. 

Nobody should be downed who stepped thru the ropes but the ref does not understand MT clinching. catching a kick and dumping is legit. Being a wrestler in the clinch just isn't good form and the style of clinching would have been broken up after about 3-5 seconds by a good ref. If I was in a BJJ match and I picked a guy up over my head and slammed him across my knee, is that legal? No. Is it bad form for the rule style ? No. Did I hurt the guy? yes.


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## MTguy (Jul 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> My coach fighting muay thai like a MMA fighter.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 1, 2022)

@MTguy just as a heads up, you quoted drop bears video but did not say anything. Not sure if the quote was unintentional, or if your part of it got deleted.


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## MTguy (Jul 26, 2022)

I don't know what happened. I don't want to disparage his instructor. They guy he is fighting is obviously a first timer whereas the instructor probably has some fights under his belt. Everything is out of whack by using this video as how to 'beat muay thai' That's like me training Cricket to become a better baseball player. really different sports although similar


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## MTguy (Jul 26, 2022)




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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

MTguy said:


> I don't know what happened. I don't want to disparage his instructor. They guy he is fighting is obviously a first timer whereas the instructor probably has some fights under his belt. Everything is out of whack by using this video as how to 'beat muay thai' That's like me training Cricket to become a better baseball player. really different sports although similar



You are going to fight to your wheel house though. If you can grappling and maul people. Then that is what you do.


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## MTguy (Jul 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> You are going to fight to your wheel house though. If you can grappling and maul people. Then that is what you do.


How about fight in your own sport? Don't play NFL on the Rugby field or you look like a buffoon. Sorry mate. just true


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## MTguy (Jul 26, 2022)

MTguy said:


> How about fight in your own sport? Don't play NFL on the Rugby field or you look like a buffoon. Sorry mate. just true


You also do it because you can't win any other way.


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## drop bear (Jul 26, 2022)

MTguy said:


> How about fight in your own sport? Don't play NFL on the Rugby field or you look like a buffoon. Sorry mate. just true



Not really. You should fight in as many sports as you can. Whether you look like a buffoon or not.

Why limit yourself?








			https://m.facebook.com/watch/live/?ref=watch_permalink&v=516064828943333&_rdr


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## MTguy (Jul 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Not really. You should fight in as many sports as you can. Whether you look like a buffoon or not.
> 
> Why limit yourself?
> 
> ...


we can agree to disagree but so your coach fought a muay thai match? did he really? against a real muay thai fighter? did he gain anything except saying, ' Look, I had a MT rules fight and I just smothered the **** out of him, I'm multidimensional' . It may impress the **** out of you but I think it's  a chickenshit way to say you 'fought moooey tai'. It is not MMA and won't be. never tried to be.


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## drop bear (Jul 27, 2022)

MTguy said:


> we can agree to disagree but so your coach fought a muay thai match? did he really? against a real muay thai fighter? did he gain anything except saying, ' Look, I had a MT rules fight and I just smothered the **** out of him, I'm multidimensional' . It may impress the **** out of you but I think it's  a chickenshit way to say you 'fought moooey tai'. It is not MMA and won't be. never tried to be.




The other guy had 11 fights 7 wins according to the announcer. 

Seems moo tai enough for me.


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## MTguy (Jul 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The other guy had 11 fights 7 wins according to the announcer.
> 
> Seems moo tai enough for me.


Well, I'm going to say you are pretty uneducated. The title of your thread just irritated me and the video was not Muay Thai. Dude, the world has known grappling beats striking or smothering beats a boxer. How many fights did you coach have? its silly to waste my time with this argument anymore. And I owned a MMA gym and had a fighter that fought in the UFC twice and fought Anderson Silva for a world title in Cage Rage and Rich Franklin in Superbrawl. I had a stable of MMA fighters. I'm a purple belt.

Do some fight watching of fights from thailand. you will learn to appreciate what they are doing. Youtube is so full of it. Type in ONE Super series muay thia fights and watch from great fighters and they are wearing 4 oz gloves just to up the ante. 

I'm apologizing for cussing you up but you are likely young and not exposed to this stuff for long. As Ive got 26 years plus another 3 years of traditional stuff. You just can't train volleyball and expect it to make you a better basketball player. Or study German to get better at English. They are all sports and languages but different. Take care man......


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## MTguy (Jul 28, 2022)

BTW, here is a pretty couple of exciting fights.


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## drop bear (Jul 28, 2022)

MTguy said:


> Well, I'm going to say you are pretty uneducated. The title of your thread just irritated me and the video was not Muay Thai. Dude, the world has known grappling beats striking or smothering beats a boxer. How many fights did you coach have? its silly to waste my time with this argument anymore. And I owned a MMA gym and had a fighter that fought in the UFC twice and fought Anderson Silva for a world title in Cage Rage and Rich Franklin in Superbrawl. I had a stable of MMA fighters. I'm a purple belt.
> 
> Do some fight watching of fights from thailand. you will learn to appreciate what they are doing. Youtube is so full of it. Type in ONE Super series muay thia fights and watch from great fighters and they are wearing 4 oz gloves just to up the ante.
> 
> I'm apologizing for cussing you up but you are likely young and not exposed to this stuff for long. As Ive got 26 years plus another 3 years of traditional stuff. You just can't train volleyball and expect it to make you a better basketball player. Or study German to get better at English. They are all sports and languages but different. Take care man......



I live in Queensland. I know what muay Thai fights are.

You suggested the ref wasn't reputable. I showed he was.

You suggested the rules were broken. I showed you the rules.

You said the opponent wasn't an experienced fighter. I showed he had 11 something fights.

You keep suggesting  other thai fighters fight differently. That is kind of irrelevant.

Here are some thai fighters that I know. And trained with personally.

Jay Tonkin.





Nick trask. With the little gloves.

Actually the commentator for nicks fight Mark Castanidi
 I trained with him for a bit as well.





And having a real close look. That ref looks kind of familiar.


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## MTguy (Jul 29, 2022)

I'm familiar with Queensland Muay Thai back to the glory days of JWP. In fact I have a picture of him at my house when he came to do a seminar at my gym. Essentally, what I'm saying is your question is NO, if you want to fight muay thai train at a MT gym. If you want to fight MMA, train at a MMA gym. Wayne's caged muay thai with 4 oz gloves was the original and ONE uses that format now. I will concede that you could train for a MT fight in a MMA gym and vice versa but we are talking apples and oranges. I won't deny your coach his wins, probably 20plus fights or thereabouts, I'm just saying aesthetically it was not muay thai and the clinching would have been broken up by a trained Thai referee as all it was was pressure and hooks. Whoever matched the fight must've needed an extra fight. QLD people are knowledgeable about the fight game.


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