# Koshiki-No-Kata



## tshadowchaser (Nov 29, 2002)

Is this form still practiced in Judo.  If so can someone tell me a little about it?
Shadow:asian:


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2003)

It seems like _no_ forms are practiced in Judo anymore!


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## Saitama Steve (Jun 30, 2003)

Oh yes they are.

You might not find them in most sport Judo dojo in the US or in the UK, but if you go to some of the more old school teachers, you might get lucky and find a sensei who actually knows his kata. 

I train Tokyo for Judo and I whenever I'm at a session, it's usually Uchi Komi, kata and randori on the menu. I train with a teacher who knows probably all of the Judo no kata and he emphasizes that we learn the principles of the kata and apply them to our randori and uchi komi. 

It makes for a very thorough education in this particular gendai art. 

If you can, get a sensei who can do the kata (even if it is one or two) and if you can get the message of the kata, your waza will definately improve.

Regards


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## arnisador (Jul 1, 2003)

Kata every class! That's almost unheard of in American Judo.


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## Saitama Steve (Jul 1, 2003)

It's hardly standard fare either over here in Japan, but that's the way our sessions usually end up.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 1, 2003)

This is done as a 2-person kata right? The book I have Kodokan Judo says this kata is designed for armor-clad warriors.
Bob:asian:


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## Saitama Steve (Jul 1, 2003)

Yes, there are about 21 kata in the Koshiki set and they all come from Kito ryu jujutsu, which used to be a comprehensive school of military arts, but became more watered down through the peacetime eras of the Edo period. It was quite renowned for it's weapons systems, but they are no longer extant. 

The kata from Kito ryu are supposed to be done in yoroi, but most demonstrations show two high ranked judoka in keikogi performing the techniques. 

Regards


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 19, 2003)

I would love to get a chance some day to see this done.
I do not think I have ever seen a school/dojo in the us do these forms.
Seeing it in full armor--- I can only dream of that


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## Abbax8 (Aug 24, 2003)

There are seminars offerred throughout the USA to train in kata. You just have to search. Check the USJI, USJA and USJF websites. Follow their links to tournaments and seminars. On the east coast James Takimori does clincs with some regularity on kata, he is in Marland near Baltimore. Last year a club in Minnesota had a kata clinic with instructors from Japan. Reggie Heefner in Chambersburg, PA. is a good Kata man. Chris Dewey in Mississippi is certified to teach all Kodokan Kata. I can teach Nage-No-Kata, Goshin-jutsu and Katame-No-Kata, but I'm not in the same league as the above sensei. Kata is contested at most national tournaments. You can learn kata, it just takes some effort.

                                                       Peace
                                                        Dennis


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 25, 2003)

Thank you


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 18, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Kata every class! That's almost unheard of in American Judo.


My sensei required us to learn the nage no kata at the sankyu level and the katame no kata at the iikyu level.  It did nothing but improve my judo ability.


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## Robert Carver (Sep 18, 2004)

Patrick Skerry said:
			
		

> My sensei required us to learn the nage no kata at the sankyu level and the katame no kata at the iikyu level.  It did nothing but improve my judo ability.


Same here! Learning the kata was one of the most valuable tools I have ever been exposed to. My Judo effectiveness increased dramatically as a result. I would guess that if more Judoka learned at least the Nage no Kata and Katame no kata, the level of Judo would go up considerably! Too bad that they have basically been abandoned in favor of just randori. One without the other makes for a very one-dimensional Judoka.


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## Patrick Skerry (Sep 19, 2004)

Robert Carver said:
			
		

> Same here! Learning the kata was one of the most valuable tools I have ever been exposed to. My Judo effectiveness increased dramatically as a result. I would guess that if more Judoka learned at least the Nage no Kata and Katame no kata, the level of Judo would go up considerably! Too bad that they have basically been abandoned in favor of just randori. One without the other makes for a very one-dimensional Judoka.


Yes, absolutely! For example, from my research, the national French judo team, and judo instruction in general in France, emphasized the Kaeshi No Kata (form of counters) or sometimes called the Gonosen No Kata, in all their judo training from beginning to end. And since France now has ten Olympic gold medals in judo compared to America's none, I would think that American judo coaches would have noticed this correlation by now?

And what would also tend to support sensei Carver's observation regarding the lack of kata making a one dimensional judoka, is Dr. Kano's statement: "What is deficient in the 'Randori' (free exercise) must be supplemented by the 'kata' (form)" found in my web research Studies on Jigoro Kano http://www.bstkd.com/judopprs.htm


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## Steve Scott (Sep 20, 2004)

I'm a firm believer in practicing kata.  The kata designed and used in Kodokan Judo are good representaitves of the wide variety of judo technical skills.

Another thought on kata which is worth discussio is that kata is structured training.  As part of a complete study of judo, kata (form), randori (free practice) and shiai (testing oneself in competitive situations) are traditionally used.  

This makes sense.  Look at most any other form of study, especially in the area of physical education.  Football players drill and practice plays in a structured training environment (we could equate this to kata).  Then they have scrimmages where they practice actual plays in realistic game situations (we could equate this to randori).  On Saturdays, they actually play the game (we could equate this to shiai).

Realizing there are obvious differences in application since judo and football are different activitiies, the common theme in my analogy is the common sense coaching used.   Kata, randori and shiai are necessary for a complete and full understanding of just about any physical education activity.  Prof. Kano was a brilliant man when he succinctly wrote these three principles down.
Kata, then, in my interpretation of this, is structured learning.  In this sense, we can expand kata to mean any structured drills that assist in the overall development of the judoka.  Limiting our kata training to only the present kata of Kodokan Judo might be a bit limiting in our view of training.  While they aren't officially sanctioned by the Kodokan or anyone else, a good instructor can invent his own kata for the purposes of keeping training sessions more interesting and productive.
One of my complaints about how people (especially in our country of the United States) view kata is that they view it as some kind of dance and forgetting (or never learning) the real purpose of each kata and each move in the kata.  I went to a nage no kata clininc once and the instructor actually told people that if they didn't perform a particular technique (in this case it was uchi mata) very well, just have the uke "jump for you and nobody will know the difference." (He also gave out some other advice which led me to believe this person was limited in his skills on kata.) I thought that was terrible advice.  Nage no kata is a training tool, and a good one, and to tell people to jump so nobody will know the difference tells me the person giving this advice has no clue why kata is even being done. I don't mean to criticize, but if we teach kata, we should remember that it is structured learning and the whole point is to improve our skill in the techniques being done. After the clininc, I discussed this with this person and he told me that "kata is a show and not too much more."  He emphasized that one "performs kata" and does not "practice kata."  To me, that's a big difference in philosophy.
I agreed with him that when doing kata for a belt rank test, the better you perform the kata, the higher the score in the evaluation, but I made the point that kata was developed as a training tool and also developed to retain the techniques of judo (and in some cases jujutsu as in koshiki no kata and kime no kata).  Anyway, we agreed to disagree.
Kata is useful in your training.  Explore it and enjoy it.
Steve Scott


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