# Nunchaku for Self-Defense



## The Martialist

I have produced a 60-page, 1.6 megabyte PDF booklet on using the nunchaku for self-defense.  It is available completely free and is not intended to promote anything (other than successful self-defense with a traditional martial arts tool).  I hope you find it useful.

*Right click and choose "save target as" to download the file from my personal website*

While one's first impression might be that such an archaic tool has no use in contemporary self-defense, it's actually a remarkably effective, easily constructed, and surprisingly concealable and portable force multiplier.


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## Andrew Green

I've spent a fair bit of time training with Nunchaku, traditional stuff, sparring with them, and even some flash stuff.

I would not reccomend using this booklet as a guide, it seems more based in "show" material then anything practical.  The grips, positions, and even transistions shown are more in line with the way they would be held for show, only not quite.

I do wonder though, have you ever actually spent anytime in front of a solid target, hitting it with them?  A lot of the poor positioning and mechanics should hopefully get corrected if you do.


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## ChadWarner

Chaku are a felony to carry in many states.  It is not a felony to carry a pocket knife.  The modern self defense enthusiast should be encouraged to become familiar witha variety of weapons however, chaku do not meet my criteria of a viable self defense weapon on the street.  I would encourage you to write a book on the top ten most usable weapons for the street as it relates to environmental awareness.


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## thardey

Andrew Green said:


> I've spent a fair bit of time training with Nunchaku, traditional stuff, sparring with them, and even some flash stuff.
> 
> I would not reccomend using this booklet as a guide, it seems more based in "show" material then anything practical.  The grips, positions, and even transistions shown are more in line with the way they would be held for show, only not quite.
> 
> I do wonder though, have you ever actually spent anytime in front of a solid target, hitting it with them?  A lot of the poor positioning and mechanics should hopefully get corrected if you do.



How do you practice sparring?


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## Andrew Green

Painfully 

Homemade ones, pvc core with some light padding.  We wear MMA gloves and masks.  They handle pretty well, don't bend, and can leave some ugly bruises, but it's all fun 

Not a favorite weapon of anyone though, they're use is in their portability, not their fighting potential.


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## MarkBarlow

Mr. Elmore,

What are your qualifications for writing the various publications you have available?  A list of your instructors, training background and real world experience would be appreciated.

Thanks.


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## thardey

Andrew Green said:


> Painfully
> 
> Homemade ones, pvc core with some light padding.  We wear MMA gloves and masks.  They handle pretty well, don't bend, and can leave some ugly bruises, but it's all fun
> 
> Not a favorite weapon of anyone though, they're use is in their portability, not their fighting potential.



I've done a lot of practice in striking with them (I like to use the "bad guy" punching bags, it makes the "recoil" less predictable), and some blocking, along with the "juggling" that you usually see in competitions, but I couldn't figure how to make them heavy enough to control and catch, without making them too heavy to spar with.

I always figured they were primarily an aggressive weapon -- whoever got the first strike won. But that's without having sparred with them.


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## The Martialist

Andrew Green said:


> I've spent a fair bit of time training with Nunchaku, traditional stuff, sparring with them, and even some flash stuff.
> 
> I would not reccomend using this booklet as a guide, it seems more based in "show" material then anything practical. The grips, positions, and even transistions shown are more in line with the way they would be held for show, only not quite.


 
That is so grossly wrong I don't know where to begin.


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## The Martialist

Well, I'll attempt it anyway -- if you actually _read_ the text within the booklet instead of skimming through the pictures (which you obviously have not done based on your comments) you'll see that I state quite clearly that most of the manipulation around the body and accompanying techniques are absolutely useless for self-defense, apart from their utility as a dexterity and flow exercise.  

Actually striking with the nunchaku is so simple, once you master follow-through to avoid the snap-back problem, that it almost doesn't warrant a booklet, but I like to walk the reader through from start to finish without assuming a level of knowledge ahead of time, when I can help it.  (Sometimes the scope of a given piece demands that certain knowledge on the part of the reader be assumed, but I try to avoid this when possible.)


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## Andrew Green

The Martialist said:


> Well, I'll attempt it anyway -- if you actually _read_ the text within the booklet instead of skimming through the pictures (which you obviously have not done based on your comments) you'll see that I state quite clearly that most of the manipulation around the body and accompanying techniques are absolutely useless for self-defense, apart from their utility as a dexterity and flow exercise.
> 
> Actually striking with the nunchaku is so simple, once you master follow-through to avoid the snap-back problem, that it almost doesn't warrant a booklet, but I like to walk the reader through from start to finish without assuming a level of knowledge ahead of time, when I can help it.  (Sometimes the scope of a given piece demands that certain knowledge on the part of the reader be assumed, but I try to avoid this when possible.)



So in other words, you really have no idea how nunchaku are used in combat apart from "hit the guy" but decided to write a booklet about it anyways?

I don't care about handling drills, hell I do them too.  However your strikes are done poorly as well, and you are writing a booklet on "self-defence" yet most of the booklet is poorly executed basic tricks and solo exercises.

Your booklet does not show a single image of the nunchaku being used against anything, not a person, not a weapon, not even a stationery target.  You have no discussion of tactics and use against other weapons or unarmed opponents.  There really is nothing to do with using the nunchaku as a weapon in the booklet at all, apart from "hit the guy", just some poorly executed handling drills.


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## Flying Crane

Given the fact that nunchaku are restricted, or even illegal in many areas, I cannot see a reason to view them as a viable self-defense weapon.  If they are legal to have and train with in a dojo and one wishes to do so to keep these old skills alive, I have no problem with that.  But if you are in an area where they are actually illegal, then you simply cannot advocate using them for self defense.  Sure, you may beat off your attacker, but you subject yourself to prosecution simply by doing so in this manner.  

For self defense, use a weapon that has cleaner legal ramifications, so that the very act of defending yourself won't expose you to arrest and criminal prosecution.


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## terryl965

Phil your booklet is simply amazing, I have never in my entire life seen such an article for the common person to use in a SD stituation. This by far just proves how out of touch you really are with SD principle's in the real world. I just need to ask have you ever had any real type of training or does those TV shows and cartoon really keep you going so you can write these type of such.

I wish you would really go and train for a long period of time with someone that really knows something so you could see first hand what it takes to be proficent in areal SD type stituation.

I will let you go now so you can watch the next great movie so you can write another book. Best of luck to you.


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## Flying Crane

Who is Scott Roeben?  Is he someone famous?


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## Andy Moynihan

Oh.



My.



God.


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## Blindside

The Martialist said:


> That is so grossly wrong I don't know where to begin.


 
Try, reveal some of your knowledge.


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## Empty Hands

Andy Moynihan said:


> Oh.
> My.
> God.



You've been doing that a lot lately.


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## exile

For some actually _competent_ writing on the subject of nunchakos, I'd suggest the work of the great Okinawan karateka Fumio Demura.  He's written about nunchakos and is held in very high regard by TMA weapons afficionados. And no one has ever suggested, so far as I know, that his techs aren't all business....


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## Fiendlover

yeah the nunchucks were my first weapon i ever trained with and later on i began using two and then one class taught us what u were showing with the chain and two locks at the end except we used our belts and pretty much did tyhe same thing.:ultracoolartyon:


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## MJS

I haven't read the article yet, however, I would think that this weapon is one that is not legal to carry.  For myself if I was going to carry a weapon,  Id want to carry something thats a) easy to conceal, b) legal to carry and c) simple to use.  

Now, don't get me wrong, for traditional purposes, I think its a good weapon, but for practical purposes, I have to say no.


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## Fiendlover

yeah nunchucks are illegal here in cali expect on ur way to and from tournaments and classes but whats ironic is that sais arent.  so can walk around carrying a three pronged weapon thats about a foot long but u cant carry a blunted nunchuk.  idk maybe nunchucks hurt worse(?) to some people............?  ive had wounds and injuries from both weapons and i dont see a huge difference.  they both hurt.  :idunno::lool:


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## harleyt26

Mr. Elmore have you ever trained with a real kobudo teacher?From your link I would guess no.Please get some training and not just home self correction then consider rewriting your booklet.It is incorrect in almost every concievable way.
I really laughed when I saw the mistranslated figure eight maneuver.What would that possibly do except get yourself disarmed?The real way is the Japanese figure eight,not two connected circles but two downward strikes.The nunchaku should be held about one inch from the end and swung with the sticks and string forming a straight line in order to achieve maximum power from the centrifugal force generated.The behind the back catch is a completely misunderstood kamae that should have the weapon in front of you looking through the opening,guarding the head and shoulder areas.
I could go on and on but I think you would be better off to actually attend some kobudo classes.What area do you live in?I have a kobudo dojo in central Florida if that might be convenient for you.If not I have friends all over the world that could assist you.
Bruce Lee was a very entertaining movie star and he did a wonderfull job of making his nunchaku a joy to watch,but his movie nunchaku techniques would be totally useless in a real confrontation.His speed was the only thing his nunchaku had going for them and it is not likely you or many others could pull that off.
Despite your disclaimers in your booklet some innocents may read that and get seriuosly injured by your guidance.Whether you want to except it or not their injuries will be your fault and responsibility.Do you also write booklets on self trained brainsurgery?
Tom Hodges


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## harleyt26

Mr. Elmore I would recommend finding a freestyle numchuks forum to share your work with,it is much more in line with what they do.I would also then remove the self defence titles and replace that with freestyle basics.You have spent a great deal of time organizing your thoughts on this subject and I think you may have just shared it with the wrong audience.Some of us have actually trained under real kobudo instructors and practice nunchaku kihon in order to understand what atually will and more importantly what will not work.
I am sorry if I have offended you in any way ,I hope this was taken in a constructive way and you will act upon it and seek out the instruction you need.
Tom Hodges


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## Andy Moynihan

Empty Hands said:


> You've been doing that a lot lately.


 

But have I not had just cause?


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## crushing

MJS said:


> I haven't read the article yet, however, I would think that this weapon is one that is not legal to carry. For myself if I was going to carry a weapon, Id want to carry something thats a) easy to conceal, b) legal to carry and c) simple to use.
> 
> Now, don't get me wrong, for traditional purposes, I think its a good weapon, but for practical purposes, I have to say no.


 
You may want to check out 'Street Sword' and see if that better meets your criteria.


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## MJS

crushing said:


> You may want to check out 'Street Sword' and see if that better meets your criteria.


 
Ahh..yes, I remember that thread.  Personally, I have nothing against learning how to use weapons.  Granted, in the past, they had their practical application and in todays world, while we can't carry a bo staff down the street with us, I see nothing wrong with training with those types of weapons, for historical purposes.

For myself, I have done some weapon training, but my primary focus is on the weapons that can be found in the Filipino arts, such as Arnis..the stick and blade.


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## frank raud

You know that you are having the same arguement with people on various forums when even your replies are cut and paste.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=534889


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## harleyt26

Any weapon intended to be used as a weapon is illegal to carry.A poket knife if used as a tool is legal,when used as a weapon it is illegal.Don't fool yourselves a weapon is anything used to cause injury to another even your hands if trained to do so.So unless yopu intend to cut your hands and feet off when leaving your house or dojo then the legal issue is of no consideration.I carry what I feel comfortable carrying and will deal with the consequences when I need to.But I don't intend to deal with those legal issues from a hospital room.
Tom Hodges


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## Blindside

harleyt26 said:


> Any weapon intended to be used as a weapon is illegal to carry.A poket knife if used as a tool is legal,when used as a weapon it is illegal.Don't fool yourselves a weapon is anything used to cause injury to another even your hands if trained to do so.So unless yopu intend to cut your hands and feet off when leaving your house or dojo then the legal issue is of no consideration.I carry what I feel comfortable carrying and will deal with the consequences when I need to.But I don't intend to deal with those legal issues from a hospital room.
> Tom Hodges


 
I can completely legally open carry or concealed carry a pistol.  I'm not planning on using it as a hammer, prybar, or toothpick, it is by definition a weapon.  If I use this weapon in a self-defense situation I may or may not be charged with a crime.  If I carry and wind up using an illegal weapon, which in most jurisdictions are already defined as "deadly" or "dangerous" weapons, I already have a strike against me in the eye's of the law because I have broken the law, just like my attacker(s).  

Lamont


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## jks9199

> Any weapon intended to be used as a weapon is illegal to carry.A poket knife if used as a tool is legal,when used as a weapon it is illegal.Don't fool yourselves a weapon is anything used to cause injury to another even your hands if trained to do so.So unless yopu intend to cut your hands and feet off when leaving your house or dojo then the legal issue is of no consideration.I carry what I feel comfortable carrying and will deal with the consequences when I need to.But I don't intend to deal with those legal issues from a hospital room.
> Tom Hodges



Too large a blanket statement.  It all depends on the state code and local laws.  For example, until last July, you could legally carry a machete concealed in Virginia -- if you had a mind to.  Several courts had held that it didn't meet the definition of "dirk, bowie..." in the Virginia code.  As a result of the popularity of the machete with gangs, it got added specifically. (Nunchaku, under several names, and shuriken are both explicitly prohibited.)  While much will turn on the purpose or justification for carrying a given knife or weapon (a machete in a bag of garden tools is much more believable than a machete hidden down the pants leg; nunchuka in a bag with a martial arts uniform is probably going to be OK, but hidden in your coat... probably a bad decision.)

NOTE: I am not providing legal guidance or advice; contact a lawyer for that.


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## thardey

Here in Oregon you can carry nunchuaku as long as they are not concealed, or they are not "readily accessible" like buried in the bottom of your karate bag.

Handguns are the only weapon we are allowed to conceal -- and that only with a permit - which is specifically a concealed _handgun_ permit.

However, you can carry all kinds of weapons openly, as long as they're legal to possess in the first place. In today's culture, however the wisdom in carrying openly is suspect. (Usually only reserved for hiking and hunting.)


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## Empty Hands

Andy Moynihan said:


> But have I not had just cause?



Ohhhhh, yes indeed.  Unfortunately.


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## DRay

Thank you for writing this and making the use of this amazing weapon available to people who would otherwise have no access to it.  A friend of mine and I are avid supporters of the nunchaku and we believe in how effective a tool of self defense in common situations it is.


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## terryl965

DRay said:


> Thank you for writing this and making the use of this amazing weapon available to people who would otherwise have no access to it. A friend of mine and I are avid supporters of the nunchaku and we believe in how effective a tool of self defense in common situations it is.


 
Are you kidding me.


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## harleyt26

The fact that you are carrying a weapon shows premeditated intent to do bodily harm in any situation that you think may be justified.That will constitute that initial strike against you.I am not saying don't carry a weapon,I am saying in the eyes of the law using a weapon puts you at a legal disadvantage.It does not matter much what the law allows in your area,it matters how good the legal council is that the person you injure has.I am in favor of using whatever you need to defend yourself,but it will be much better for you legaly to use what you may find at hand when the situation arises rather than bring the weapon with you.
Tom Hodges


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## KenpoTex

harleyt26 said:


> The fact that you are carrying a weapon shows premeditated intent to do bodily harm in any situation that you think may be justified.


No, it shows that you are prepared to effectively defend yourself if you are faced with a criminal assault.  

CCW laws (of which your state has one of the best) exist so that people _can_ carry weapons.  In states/countries with more draconian laws (e.g. Cali. Mass, NY, IL, etc.) it would be advantageous to only carry items that could legitimately be classified as a "tool."  Thankfully, in the free states, we don't have to worry as much about this.

Regarding the initial post...


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## Catalyst

As best as I can find in New York State Statute, it is illegal to even posess a nunchaku or what NYS Statute calls a "chuka stick"



> S 265.00 Definitions.
> * 14. "Chuka stick" means any device designed primarily as a weapon,
> consisting of two or more lengths of a rigid material joined together by
> a thong, rope or chain in such a manner as to allow free movement of a
> portion of the device while held in the hand and capable of being
> rotated in such a manner as to inflict serious injury upon a person by
> striking or choking. These devices are also known as nunchakus and
> centrifugal force sticks.


 


> S 265.01 Criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth degree.
> A person is guilty of criminal possession of a weapon in the fourth
> degree when:
> (1) He possesses any firearm, electronic dart gun, electronic stun
> gun, gravity knife, switchblade knife, pilum ballistic knife, metal
> knuckle knife, cane sword, billy, blackjack, bludgeon, metal knuckles,
> *chuka stick*, sand bag, sandclub, wrist-brace type slingshot or
> slungshot, shirken or "Kung Fu star"; or ........


 
I honestly don't know about the practicality of training with this weapon, let alone carrying this weapon where I live. I'm not giving legal advice, and I suggest you best check with your Attorney.

I think I'll stick to something more practical.


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## DavidCC

What about this one?


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## Mark L

That document is worth exactly the price he's charging.


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## Rabu

Interesting attempt.  Keep working and working with that Photographer. 

You could be the 'Ron Jeremy' of Martial arts eventually.

Best of luck,

Rob


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## Doc_Jude

DRay said:


> Thank you for writing this and making the use of this amazing weapon available to people who would otherwise have no access to it.  A friend of mine and I are avid supporters of the nunchaku and we believe in how effective a tool of self defense in common situations it is.



_*HUH!?!   *_

You want free nunchaku info, look here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdxV69wU5sA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg_ILTyfjyc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDA5kacuvRc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdGQN2rerd8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6QbRgi4wO8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APTur6EEqaY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJkjtHXCfTA


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## KenpoTex

this is a good one too.


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## Bodhisattva

I'd prefer a collapsable baton over a set of "chuks", personally.


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## ChadWarner

terryl965 said:


> Phil your booklet is simply amazing, I have never in my entire life seen such an article for the common person to use in a SD stituation. This by far just proves how out of touch you really are with SD principle's in the real world. I just need to ask have you ever had any real type of training or does those TV shows and cartoon really keep you going so you can write these type of such.
> 
> I wish you would really go and train for a long period of time with someone that really knows something so you could see first hand what it takes to be proficent in areal SD type stituation.
> 
> I will let you go now so you can watch the next great movie so you can write another book. Best of luck to you.


That was hillarious-  I almost bought that one... Nyyyyyce


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## Andy3012

poor guy 

Personally i disagree with the use of any weapon - a weapon makes you weaker, somebody with the right training could easily disarm somebody with a nunchaku.

However i have been learning nunchaku for about half a year now - i have 3 sets
Foam with string - piece of crap
Oak with Chain - I dont like it to be honest its too wide on the grip
Oak with String - Love this one, its such a nice handle, and the fact there is no chain means when i do wristrolls (yeah freestyle i know) i don't pinch my skin in the chain.

Nowadays they just ain't practical - they are fairly useful in training, Hand eye coordination and also helps with multitasking in terms of doing multiple things at once (spinning, kicking, making sure you dont lose concentration, keeping an eye on your surroundings).  Also theyre illegal nearly all over the world.

I also used mine for wrist rehabilitation (snapped my left wrist curling 26kg), and its helped quite alot i'd say.  I have "sparred" with them before, my brother owns a set of Sai and we mess about occasionally, other than that the only real experience i have with hitting stuff is smashing light bulbs (5 and counting) and hitting punch bags with them.

But i would honestly reccommend anybody to get a set, not for practicalities of using them as a weapon, but for the hand eye coordination training and wrist strengthening (wood or heavy metal only though)

Unfourtunately phill, in order for your leaflet to be "textbook" you need to get some real nunchaku training.


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## sgtmac_46

harleyt26 said:


> The fact that you are carrying a weapon shows premeditated intent to do bodily harm in any situation that you think may be justified.That will constitute that initial strike against you.I am not saying don't carry a weapon,I am saying in the eyes of the law using a weapon puts you at a legal disadvantage.It does not matter much what the law allows in your area,it matters how good the legal council is that the person you injure has.I am in favor of using whatever you need to defend yourself,but it will be much better for you legaly to use what you may find at hand when the situation arises rather than bring the weapon with you.
> Tom Hodges


  It matters if you live in a state like Missouri......which has created civil immunity for anyone who uses CRIMINALLY justified force in defense of themselves or others. 



> *Justification as an absolute defense, when. *
> 
> 563.074. 1. Notwithstanding the provisions of section 563.016, a person who uses force as described in sections 563.031, 563.041, 563.046, 563.051, 563.056, and 563.061 is justified in using such force and such fact shall be an absolute defense to criminal prosecution or civil liability.
> 
> 2. The court shall award attorney's fees, court costs, and all reasonable expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant has an absolute defense as provided in subsection 1 of this section.


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## sgtmac_46

Andy3012 said:


> poor guy
> 
> Personally i disagree with the use of any weapon - a weapon makes you weaker, somebody with the right training could easily disarm somebody with a nunchaku.
> 
> However i have been learning nunchaku for about half a year now - i have 3 sets
> Foam with string - piece of crap
> Oak with Chain - I dont like it to be honest its too wide on the grip
> Oak with String - Love this one, its such a nice handle, and the fact there is no chain means when i do wristrolls (yeah freestyle i know) i don't pinch my skin in the chain.
> 
> Nowadays they just ain't practical - they are fairly useful in training, Hand eye coordination and also helps with multitasking in terms of doing multiple things at once (spinning, kicking, making sure you dont lose concentration, keeping an eye on your surroundings). Also theyre illegal nearly all over the world.
> 
> I also used mine for wrist rehabilitation (snapped my left wrist curling 26kg), and its helped quite alot i'd say. I have "sparred" with them before, my brother owns a set of Sai and we mess about occasionally, other than that the only real experience i have with hitting stuff is smashing light bulbs (5 and counting) and hitting punch bags with them.
> 
> But i would honestly reccommend anybody to get a set, not for practicalities of using them as a weapon, but for the hand eye coordination training and wrist strengthening (wood or heavy metal only though)
> 
> Unfourtunately phill, in order for your leaflet to be "textbook" you need to get some real nunchaku training.


 

A weapon makes you weaker?  Man, someone should have told early man that when he fell out of the tree and picked up the first stick and rock.....he should have just practiced his empty hand! :sniper:


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## sgtmac_46

As to the Nunchaku, I don't know if anyone is aware of it.....but there were Police Nunchaku around for a while.....I believe Kevin Orcutt developed them.....calls them OPN's (Orcutt Police Nunchaku)..They were all the rage in my Academy class, my Defensive Tactics instructor was a friend of Kevin Orcutts.

Anyway...I took the training, actually carried them for a short time.  They had some pretty good uses, mostly pain compliance......they were used for striking, but their MAIN use was as a leverage device, they had a double rope where most Nunchaku had a chain......and the end of the shaft that met the rope were squared off to create a pinching pressure.....incredibly painful when wrapped around a wrist, arm or ankle and twisted.  

Problem was that they were too complicated (or, rather, too complicated for a nuckle dragger like me) to use effectively in the street.....and the strikes, while powerful.....suffered from the same fatal flaw as ALL flexible weapons......IT TAKES TO LONG TO RELOAD THE SWING!

So, I keep mine in my training gear as a momento....I occassionally dig them out and play with them.  I replaced them with a 31' ASP baton and took up FMA instead.

At any rate, anyone interested in the concept, here's Kevin Orcutt's website.  http://www.orcuttopn.com/


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## sgtmac_46

I do recommend checking the DOG BROTHERS 'Real Contact Stick Fighting: Stick versus Other Weapons' where the Dog Brothers show real contact stick fights between stick and Nanchuku...as well as staffs, sectional staffs, whips, tonfu, a wooden Sword and other assorted weapons.....VERY EYE OPENNING!  http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html


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## Andy3012

sgtmac_46 said:


> A weapon makes you weaker?  Man, someone should have told early man that when he fell out of the tree and picked up the first stick and rock.....he should have just practiced his empty hand! :sniper:




No need to be a sarcastic dork is there.  I take it you don't read often, because various MA Authors such as Bruce Lee and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (just off the top of my head) also suggest that weapons arn't as effective as Unarmed combat - with a weapon in your hand, there is less freedom to do things and the heavier the weapon is the harder it will be to use, meaning that an unnarmed combatant would easily have the upper hand. (and i am not talking about guns here).

I am also well aware of that police officer that developed nunchaku, and from my knowledge i understand they were popular for a short while - but they were too complicated to use for people.

The first book i ever read was "Dynamic Nunchaku" by Tadashi Yamashita, granted it is pretty ancient and the pictures are pretty funky, but if anybody who wants to start nunchaku its a fairly good read + you can tell right from the start of the book that the way phill has shown to grip his nunchaku is wrong.  That Handling only works for pulling off spins and fancy tricks - which isn't much good for when somebody wants to attack you lol, can you seriosuly imagine going up to somebody and spinning a nunchaku above your head like in phills leaflet.  Nunchak needs to be held on the lower half (personally i prefer nearer the bottom-middle gives more balance)


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## Mark L

Andy3012 said:


> ... with a weapon in your hand, there is less freedom to do things and the heavier the weapon is the harder it will be to use, meaning that an unnarmed combatant would easily have the upper hand. (and i am not talking about guns here).


OK, square off unarmed with a knife wielding opponent (with malicious intent). Who do you think has the advantage? Same question with a bo, or escrima stick. Your position on this issue is naive, whether Bruce Lee supported it or not.


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## INDYFIGHTER

I like the chain with the padlocks.


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## Brian R. VanCise

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Super Moderator-
*


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## Langenschwert

Andy3012 said:


> No need to be a sarcastic dork is there. I take it you don't read often, because various MA Authors such as Bruce Lee and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (just off the top of my head) also suggest that weapons arn't as effective as Unarmed combat


 
Just because they said it doesn't mean it's true.  History bears out the efficacy of armed over unarmed combat.  Otherwise people wouldn't have developed weapons at all in the first place.  Anyone who thinks that weapons aren't as effective as empty hands hasn't really faced someone with any amount of real weapons training, plain and simple. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Andy3012

@ Mark L
well, ok i'll use some of my real life experiences i'm a bouncer at a bar in town, and i've been threatened at knife point about 3 times so far (i've only been working for under a year).  And every time i was able to lock the offenders arm and force him to release the knife.

There is my real life experience, and my proof that i have had a little weapons training in terms of dealing with people with them.  You could say that "well they obviously didn't have any training", and that is probably true.  But you said my thoughts are niave, i don't think they are considering i've faced the real deal.

@ Langenshwert
i didn't say "because they said it, it must be true".  I said they "Suggest" that weapons arn't as effective, and i personally feel the same way.  Please read my posts carefully next time


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## Langenschwert

Andy3012 said:


> @ Mark L
> well, ok i'll use some of my real life experiences i'm a bouncer at a bar in town, and i've been threatened at knife point about 3 times so far (i've only been working for under a year). And every time i was able to lock the offenders arm and force him to release the knife.


 
You're a very lucky man.



> You could say that "well they obviously didn't have any training", and that is probably true. But you said my thoughts are niave, i don't think they are considering i've faced the real deal.


 
That's the rub.  All it proves is that someone with a huge advantage can still lose it through ineptitude.  Remember the saying "Nothing is idiot-proof against a sufficiently talented idiot".  Also, people are as a general rule reluctant to kill other people.  Read some essays on "rates of fire", and the psychological readiness to kill.  If someone isn't actually intending to gut you, then that's an advantage you have.  If it's a situation where the opponent is willing to take a broken nose or whatever to stab you into the dirt, the scenario changes.   Not that I'm presuming any knowledge of your experience, the fact that he threatened you rather than knifing you by ambush is a sign that he didn't actually want to kill you... perhaps he wanted to deter you in order to not lose face.  Also, if the either combatant is timid, then he'll likely lose regardless.  *A weapon that someone isn't actually willing to use isn't really a weapon at all... it's a fashion statement.* 



> @ Langenshwert
> i didn't say "because they said it, it must be true". I said they "Suggest" that weapons arn't as effective, and i personally feel the same way. Please read my posts carefully next time


 
I read it perfectly well, thank-you.   History bears out that weapons trump empty hand.  If it didn't, then you would have found empty-handed soldiers defeating armed and armoured knights en masse on the battlefields of Europe, and the Roman Legions would have conquered using bareknuckle boxing, but they didn't.  The grabbed sharp pointy things and butchered their enemies.  Weapons are expensive... if they didn't work, no one would have expended the resources to develop them in the first place.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## sgtmac_46

Andy3012 said:


> No need to be a sarcastic dork is there. I take it you don't read often, because various MA Authors such as Bruce Lee and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit (just off the top of my head) also suggest that weapons arn't as effective as Unarmed combat - with a weapon in your hand, there is less freedom to do things and the heavier the weapon is the harder it will be to use, meaning that an unnarmed combatant would easily have the upper hand. (and i am not talking about guns here).
> 
> I am also well aware of that police officer that developed nunchaku, and from my knowledge i understand they were popular for a short while - but they were too complicated to use for people.
> 
> The first book i ever read was "Dynamic Nunchaku" by Tadashi Yamashita, granted it is pretty ancient and the pictures are pretty funky, but if anybody who wants to start nunchaku its a fairly good read + you can tell right from the start of the book that the way phill has shown to grip his nunchaku is wrong. That Handling only works for pulling off spins and fancy tricks - which isn't much good for when somebody wants to attack you lol, can you seriosuly imagine going up to somebody and spinning a nunchaku above your head like in phills leaflet. Nunchak needs to be held on the lower half (personally i prefer nearer the bottom-middle gives more balance)


  There's plenty of need to be sarcastic if folks are spreading the silly notions that weapons aren't as effective as empty hands....notions that might get some one killed.....sarcasm is the surest cure for silliness.

I'm not intending to be rude, and if I come across as too blunt I apologize....but I think it's IMPORTANT to point out that the notion that empty hand is superior to a weapon is fundamentally flawed!


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## sgtmac_46

Mark L said:


> OK, square off unarmed with a knife wielding opponent (with malicious intent). Who do you think has the advantage? Same question with a bo, or escrima stick. Your position on this issue is naive, whether Bruce Lee supported it or not.


 MY SENTIMENTS EXACTLY!  And for the record it's a misrepresentation of Bruce Lee's position to say that he claimed weapons were less effective than empty hands. 

It's like saying a forklift is less effective at lifting boxes than empty hands.....or a knife is less effective at cutting steak than empty hands....or a shovel is less effective at digging a hole than empty hands!

A weapon is a tool, and tools add a physical advantage.....an unarmed man CAN overcome and armed man....ONLY if he has VASTLY superior skill......speed, surprise and violence of action!  But if two men are equally matched, and one is ARMED, he will prevail, all other things being equal!


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## sgtmac_46

Andy3012 said:


> @ Mark L
> well, ok i'll use some of my real life experiences i'm a bouncer at a bar in town, and i've been threatened at knife point about 3 times so far (i've only been working for under a year). And every time i was able to lock the offenders arm and force him to release the knife.
> 
> There is my real life experience, and my proof that i have had a little weapons training in terms of dealing with people with them. You could say that "well they obviously didn't have any training", and that is probably true. But you said my thoughts are niave, i don't think they are considering i've faced the real deal.
> 
> @ Langenshwert
> i didn't say "because they said it, it must be true". I said they "Suggest" that weapons arn't as effective, and i personally feel the same way. Please read my posts carefully next time


  Your conclusions based on your anecdotal experience is dangerous to your health because of the assumptions it has created....a false confidence NOT supported by reality.

ANY man who believes that empty hand techniques are SUPERIOR to a knife is in for a rude, painful and possibly fatal awakening at some point in the future.

My intent isn't to be rude......but that is a dangerous notion to hold and spread......that because you've gotten luck and disarmed a couple people armed with knives, that you now conclude that your empty hand techniques are more than sufficient to deal with any knife attack.  You might want to study the fate of a fellow bouncer named 'Tiny'.

As a cop, i've disarmed knife holders too......most of them were untrained, and most of them had no intention of stabbing me.....at the time of the disarm they were still trying to figure out WHAT they intended to do......THAT is not the same as dealing with a dedicated trained attacker intent on killing you!  I've seen the results of that, and it's usually someone cut all to hell!

My intent isn't to be rude......but that is a dangerous notion to hold and spread......that because you've gotten luck and disarmed a couple people armed with knives, that you now conclude that your empty hand techniques are more than sufficient to deal with any knife attack.  You might want to study the fate of a fellow bouncer named 'Tiny'.  http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...AA25757C0A9659C8B63&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Despite the New York Slimes usual hyperbole, and their inability to get the story accurate......to make a long story short, Umali used his knife to open up 'Tiny' femoral artery with a single strike.....'Tiny' bled out in a matter of a couple of minutes.  I'm not even sure if 'Tiny' even knew what happened to him. That is the power of a weapon......to do in a fraction of a second what one could not do with their bare hands.


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## sgtmac_46

Langenschwert said:


> I read it perfectly well, thank-you.  History bears out that weapons trump empty hand. If it didn't, then you would have found empty-handed soldiers defeating armed and armoured knights en masse on the battlefields of Europe, and the Roman Legions would have conquered using bareknuckle boxing, but they didn't. The grabbed sharp pointy things and butchered their enemies. Weapons are expensive... if they didn't work, no one would have expended the resources to develop them in the first place.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


  Absolutely!  While we talk very much about the 'unarmed' skills of past warriors.....we forget that they were used very infrequently as most conflict was settled with a sword, or spear, or arrow, or club, or stick, etc, etc, etc,.....an unarmed man has almost ZERO chance against a trained armed man.....especially if he doesn't have the element of surprise.

Contrary to population myth, unarmed men did not roam the land fighting men armed with swords with their bare hands......that didn't happen until Hollywood was invented!

Historically, unarmed defenses didn't take fore front until some government or other banned ARMS as a method of defense.....therefore, unarmed skills, such as developed on Okinawa, were the result of necessity, not choice....given the choice, a man will pick up a WEAPON rather than use his bare hands.......a man educated in conflict would no more voluntarily engage in a life or death fight without a weapon than he'd CHOOSE to dig a HOLE without a shovel!


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## Sukerkin

*Mac* and *Langen*, I just wanted to congratulate you both on a string of posts that totally removed my ability to add anything to this thread :lol:.

About all I can say, as someone with more than a decade of training in empty-hand (which I've used to practical effect in the 'real world') and half-a-decade of training in the Japanese Sword Art of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, is that a weapon is a force multiplier.  Just like a hammer or a pair of pliers.  Someone trained in the use of the tool can achieve effects an order of magnitude greater than either someone without the tool or sans the training.

To give a relevant anecdote, my iaido sensei is also very highly skilled in karate and aikido.  When I was an unskilled kyu grade, he could disarm me at will (using bokken for safety of course).  Now I'm a nidan, he has to work much harder and makes clear that, if shinken were involved, he'd probably fail.  That's because an experienced swordsman does not give the opening for empty-hand techniques to work (the proviso being that the unarmed chap is not more skilled than the armed one).

*Andy*, I trained in Lau Gar Kung Fu, a legacy descendant of Bruce's Jeet Kune Du and altho' I've read that he thought that using a weapon 'limited' your options, in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was a bad idea.

I don't want you to feel assailed here tho' and I'd be happy to read any sources you can point to that have relevance to this issue.


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## FieldDiscipline

Sukerkin said:


> *Mac* and *Langen*, I just wanted to congratulate you both on a string of posts that totally removed my ability to add anything to this thread :lol:.



Oh I dont know.  Looks like you managed to me.


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## Langenschwert

Sukerkin said:


> I've read that he thought that using a weapon 'limited' your options


 
True enough.  But not having one limits your options even more, and that's the key point.  If you are without a weapon, you effectively have no ranged defence.  You must close past the weapon to control the wrist, say.  This limits you in several ways.  Firstly, you have to wait to receive the attack in virtually every situation.  If you close with a swordsman, he can merely step back to optimal range and butcher you like a lamb while you close.  Similarly with a knife, you can hold the knife further back and extend the unarmed hand to delay the closing unarmed person and stick them as they close.  This waiting to receive the attack is a huge disadvantage in real fights.  There's a reason why the German masters stressed striking first in armed combat.  In doing so, you can more easily control the tempo of the fight.  Against an unarmed man, anybody with decent weapons training knows what the opponent will have to do and be prepared.  Against a weapon, you must close or void in some fashion if you're unarmed.  If I'm striking with a longsword, I can alter my step in "mid-flight" to adjust to my unarmed victim's movements, whereas against me, he must close like gangbusters to gain any advantage.  If he merely backs up, great... that gives me a new tempo to attack.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Sukerkin

FieldDiscipline said:


> Oh I dont know. Looks like you managed to me.


 

Thanks, *FD*.  I did manage to muck up my post a little tho' I note on re-reading.

This line:

"in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was a bad idea."

Should've read either:

"in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was*n't* a bad idea."

Or:

"in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was a good idea."

It appears I had a slip between brain and keyboard there .


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## Zero

OK I thought all you guys hammering on poor Phil were out of line and rude SOBs, given the guy must have spent some time and effort producing a book to enable this knowledge to be accessible to others.

Then I started going through the book and the pictures and almost pissed myself - this is the best piece of comedy I 've seen in years.  I particularly like the first pic - the low guard (to protect the groin/waistline) it seems to be just begging for a low stomp or side kick to smash right through it!

Anyway, a solid 10 out of 10 for effort my man.

I've trained in nunchuk for years under goju and we train in hard target hitting against poles/bambo in the for accuracey and mellons etc on end of said poles for practising power and follow through - also (really) just for the sheer fun of it.  A chuk against unarmed or short blade/knife I rate but as said before on other links, against longer weapons (bo/sword or a long 2x4 on the street not that flash from my own experience.

We also trained in sparring - foam/rubber ones - not with the real deal though.


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## FieldDiscipline

Sukerkin said:


> Thanks, *FD*.  I did manage to muck up my post a little tho' I note on re-reading.
> 
> This line:
> 
> "in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was a bad idea."
> 
> Should've read either:
> 
> "in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was*n't* a bad idea."
> 
> Or:
> 
> "in context I've never heard it said that fighting unarmed versus an armed opponent was a good idea."
> 
> It appears I had a slip between brain and keyboard there .



I knew what you meant.


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## frank raud

Unarmed combat is for those foolish enough to be caught without a weapon-paraphrased from W.E. Fairbairn, a man with waay more experience than Bruce Lee.


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