# Verbal training?



## still learning (Aug 5, 2009)

Hello, Lot of Martial Art Instructors are great at teaching physcial self-defense...

There are NO Masters/Professors/Sensi/Instructors that can and know how to teach...Verbal speaking on how to defuse or end situtions before they happen and after they happen...

There is a few books...on this topic (Verbal Judo,etc)....NOT enough details or information...

Man's EGO"S....sometimes bigger than the "brain"...

Sure some teach a form of it....NOT enough....and is not consider a big part of the training...

MY POINT IS THIS...more martial arts should focus in this area....verbal language to prevent situtions from exploding...

Isn't this the main point is SELF-DEFENSE....prevention!! 

Total Transformation is a good start...(See-Total Tranformtion)

Dale Carnige - How to win friends and Influence people ( a GREAT book to read)....

Hopefully ONE of you will be able to write a book than helps Martial artist in this area!

Disfusing/dismantle/ bad situtions from get worst....

Aloha,     In Hawaii- you get "lei" first..............(flower lei's)


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## Nolerama (Aug 5, 2009)

Agreed.

Word jitsu trumps all.


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## Live True (Aug 5, 2009)

still learning, I could be wrong, but I do think this is part of LEO and military training. A quick search of Amazon showed several business and general books on the topic, but not form a specific MA viewpoint...the closest I could find searching "verbal self defense"

Tongue Fu!: How to Deflect, Disarm, and Defuse Any Verbal Conflict by Sam Horn 
and 

Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion by George Thompson 

Both reviews states these are more about defense against psychological attacks, so it doesn't sound like it deals directly with the concept of defusing an escalating encounter that could become a phyiscal one.

So, your point still stands...is there any good book on specifically defusing an encounter likely to lead to a physical conflict...one that is not specifically geared to psychological texts or miltary/law training?


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## frank raud (Aug 5, 2009)

Geoff Thompson teaches verbal tactics based on NLP to defuse situations. He is not the only one by any means, just one of the more prominent. Check out Marcus Wynne, or Mike Mandel of British jiu jitsu. (Mike's day job is a clinical hypnotherapist).

Large portions of Southnarc's unarmed and unarmed lessons involve dialogue, or not getting suckered into a dialogue with someone who is invading your space. It is heavily covered in his section called Managing Unknown Contacts.

The uses of verbal de-escalation, defusing and the use of NLP in a self defense /combat situation seems to be more pronounced and developed in British RBSD circles than most others. It may be because many of their practioners are bouncers/door men.

Verbal Judo was developed for the police.

Still sure about the statement  " There are NO Masters/Professors/Sensi/Instructors that can and know how to teach...Verbal speaking on how to defuse or end situtions before they happen and after they happen"


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## frank raud (Aug 5, 2009)

From an article on the Martialist  http://www.themartialist.com/0903/dimitri.htm

*What are you feelings on pre-emptive self-defense? How do you address legal and moral issues involving the use of force in your teaching?* 

I firmly believe in the first strike principle. However, I believe it needs to be justified and one shouldnt jump the proverbial gun with it.  Theres a saying that goes, "Those who talk can be persuaded to walk." For the most part, that is true.  Verbal defusing is not only feasible, but probable as well.  There are exceptions, though.  One should go pre-emptive if the situation is escalating, if the aggression level hasnt diminished at the verbal attempts at defusing, and in multiple attacker scenarios.  Since there are no absolutes in combat and everything depends on circumstance and scenario, the scenario will always dictates the response. 


Interesting use of NLP techniques by police
http://www.nlpco.com/library/society/flex-cop/


Darren Laur specifically includes, and focuses on verbal skills prior to potential fight engagement

http://www.personalprotectionsystems.ca/



Obviously there are many people teaching verbal de-escalation techniques as part of the complete package that they offer. It is rarely taught in TMA, as most TMA in my experience focus from the point "OK, he grabbed me/punched me, so now I do this"


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## still learning (Aug 5, 2009)

Hello, I have read and own two of Sam Horn books....good information..but not quite what most of us are looking for...

Each State has there own laws regarding self-defence...with so many laws that can be interpeted and use differently in each case by case...

Federal laws can apply if conflict breaks Federal laws...IT would be nice to learn many situtions that can happen and know the results of what is consider lawful and safe to use and be allow...in SD..

...most of us have dealt with "angry" or loud peope and have handle with verbal languages....without going into a physcial confrontations...

How do we handle "drunks"...is there a verbal techniques for these kind of people...where there EGO"S become bigger than there brains...

Thank-you for the input....Aloha,

PS: Similing helps ( in a almost casual standing SD stance)...hands up..palms facing out...ready to block or strike....

Off course- if turning to run...NO need for verbal....just movements of the feet and body...


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## BLACK LION (Aug 5, 2009)

Carefully placed words can diffuse most situations. Its rare that physicality is a necessity. Negotiation must always be on your terms and should always maintain neutrality.


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## Ty Hatfield (Aug 5, 2009)

Today was interesting day at one of the places I teach at, in my school we teach Hapkido, Taekwondo, and Korean Swords Gumdo. My Master Allen Hughes we sat down I usually work on ground Defenses in that Master Class having 4-6 Master Dan Black Belts but today just me and Allen and his wife Carrie. Master Hughes is 5th Dan in Taekwondo, and 4th Dan Gumdo, and 4th Dan Hapkido. His Wife is a 4th Dan in Gumdo, 3rd Dan in Hapkido, and 1st Dan in Taekwondo. She was really wanting to get into some tournaments and show her skill and try to push her self in Olympic Point Fighting. We talked to her and the things we had to say is why? It seems when you try at times to do that what are you really trying to prove I'm not saying it is not good to work on things like that and push your self but it seemed only it would or could be a discredit for her skill as a Master Swordswoman and Close to a Master Hapkidoist. I look at it like this Einstein was very brilliant as we all know, but it is not in his best interest to get in some chess matchs. Most put him as the winner saying he is so smart he would just win, then other says if he loses then he is not so smart and so forth. So if she was to fight in some point matches and lose then she could through some small minded people be looked at as having lost since it was her Sword skill or her being in Hapkido. It is hard to serve two masters and she needs to make up her mind and honor her art.

I had to also say that when we found Hapkido it became a way of life. I teach some Ju-Jitsu classes, but I only serve my hapkido ways. Master Allen does not want to go any farther in Swords, or Taekwondo, he feels that since he found hapkido it is the only thing he wants to pursue. I also have other Black Dan levels but only feel I want to pursue Hapkido.


What is your thinking on this? Please let me know.

Thanks,
Ty Hatfield


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## Chris Parker (Aug 6, 2009)

Hi,

This is actually a topic and skill set we cover a number of times a year in our schools (for a month of classes at a time). In fact, it is our "Street" topic for August. So it is something that I agree in the viability of completely.

In essence, we don't use NLP for it (as this is not something that everyone who walks into the school can completely get their head around, and if there is incongruence, then that can completely rob the words of any effect), but instead base it around a psychological understanding of the attacker. By that I mean having an understanding of how to avoid "kicking" a potential attacker off, all the way through to being able to "big dog" someone to stop them from escalating to the physical. This is coupled with a high emphasis on distance, body language, and reading intention. And it is all very important in our way of thinking. After all, our aim isn't to win trophies, it's to get home safely.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2009)

frank raud said:


> Geoff Thompson teaches verbal tactics based on NLP to defuse situations. He is not the only one by any means, just one of the more prominent. Check out Marcus Wynne, or Mike Mandel of British jiu jitsu. (Mike's day job is a clinical hypnotherapist).
> 
> Large portions of Southnarc's unarmed and unarmed lessons involve dialogue, or not getting suckered into a dialogue with someone who is invading your space. It is heavily covered in his section called Managing Unknown Contacts.
> 
> ...


 

We could just talk a lot? Seriously though you are right, these days all door staff are licensed and have to be trained before they get that license. Verbal skills and de-escaltions drills are taught on these courses.
While 'first strike' is allowed here, it's not usually the best way forward for police officers who are expected to be able to talk a situation down here. 

I think far more instructors than SL thinks teach verbal skills. 


Ty, you may want to repost in another thread more appropriate to the subject of your post if you want a serious answer?


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## Flea (Aug 6, 2009)

I only just started learning physical SD a few months ago, but like anyone I've faced conflict all my life.  Since I'm small and (barf!) cute, I learned verbal SD very early on.  It _works._  And once I get passable at it, I'm determined to incorporate the MA as one more facet of my overall self-defense.

**

I've sat here for several minutes trying to follow up on this sentence, but my wee-hours insomnia is catching up to  me (as luck would have it, with only half an hour before my alarm clock goes off.)  I'll have to come back to this later.  



:caffeine:


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 6, 2009)

In all fairness, some years ago I took FAST defense classes with Bill Kipp, and verbal training was absolutely part of the curriculum.  Verbal training is also a part of the National Women's Martial Arts Federation's self defense training.


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## sgtmac_46 (Aug 6, 2009)

WARNING: Not all conflicts can be resolved by any amount of talking.  Many conflicts that are the result of out of control ego/defensive aggression.........but one must remember that predatory aggression cannot be talked to death.


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## Ty Hatfield (Aug 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ty, you may want to repost in another thread more appropriate to the subject of your post if you want a serious answer?


 

My Dear friend could you let me know best place to put that I was just talking about verbal training meaning, meaning instead of training with bodys we sat down and trained with our hearts and minds.

Thanks,
Ty Hatfield


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## JKD143 (Aug 6, 2009)

A very good point. We spend time on this at our school, fortunately. 

Understanding proper verbal communication, voice inflection, tone, pace/meta verbal and body language can do much to diffuse a situation, but can also facilitate a faster and less "telegraphed"  first strike.  If it turns out you can't avoid an altercation, your attempts at diffusing it (body language and position included) should set you up for a strike that is that much more unexpected. 

Good topic.


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## frank raud (Aug 6, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> In all fairness, some years ago I took FAST defense classes with Bill Kipp, and verbal training was absolutely part of the curriculum. Verbal training is also a part of the National Women's Martial Arts Federation's self defense training.


 Bill Kipp no doubt got it from his time with Peyton Quinn.


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## still learning (Aug 6, 2009)

Hello, Thank-you for the feedback and your thoughts....Aloha,

If words are made of STICK/Stones...we could also use them as throwing weapons....

Aloha,


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2009)

still learning said:


> Hello, Lot of Martial Art Instructors are great at teaching physcial self-defense...
> 
> There are NO Masters/Professors/Sensi/Instructors that can and know how to teach...Verbal speaking on how to defuse or end situtions before they happen and after they happen...
> 
> ...


 
Umm...am I reading your opening line correctly here?  You're saying that there are no teachers that can teach how to verbally defuse a situation, but then you point us to books???  Obviously there are people who can do it and those who teach it, otherwise, there'd be no books.  Maybe I'm misreading your post here, but if not, that IMO, is a pretty bold statement, painted with a broad brush.  

I really don't think that there's any secrets to this.  IMO, like many things in life, it comes down to having some good old common sense.  

Is verbal defusing something that is taught in all schools?  Don't know, but I do know that many of my teachers have brought this up.  I'm going thru various scenarios with my Kenpo teacher all the time.  We'll pick a random scenario, work to verbally defuse it, and then work the rest from there.  

Like I said, I dont think that there're any secrets, and if people are trying to sell that line, then shame on them for making it sound like they have some new, never before seen magic trick, because I'm not buying into it.  Its no different than being aware of your surroundings when you're out.  

Just today, I was out with my wife.  Went to one of the malls.  Looked around the parking garage when I pulled in, looked around as we were walking to the door of the mall, was aware while in the mall, when walking back to the car, etc.  Its nothing magical, just common sense.


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## MJS (Aug 6, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> WARNING: Not all conflicts can be resolved by any amount of talking. Many conflicts that are the result of out of control ego/defensive aggression.........but one must remember that predatory aggression cannot be talked to death.


 
I agree with this.  Sometimes there just isn't any time for talking.  It just goes from 0-60 in seconds.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2009)

MJS said:


> I agree with this. Sometimes there just isn't any time for talking. It just goes from 0-60 in seconds.


 
There have been occasions though when I'd have gladly shot someone just to stop them talking and talking and talking! I hate burbling drunks.


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## seasoned (Aug 6, 2009)

Verbal is a part of all LEO training. It is part of the use of force continuum. It is up to the offender as to where it goes. Unless there is an all out situation in progress, presence and verbal will take you a long way. I feel that most DoJo lack this approach as part of their SD curriculum.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Verbal is a part of all LEO training. It is part of the use of force continuum. It is up to the offender as to where it goes. Unless there is an all out situation in progress, *presents *and verbal will take you a long way. I feel that most DoJo lack this approach as part of their SD curriculum.


 
Are you suggesting we give presents to make them calm down?


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## seasoned (Aug 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Are you suggesting we give presents to make them calm down?


I will give them presence first, if that doesn't work, then that is the only presents they will get. From that point on it is compliance. I can always count on you to be the post police.


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## Tez3 (Aug 6, 2009)

seasoned said:


> I will give them presence first, if that dosn't work, then that is the only presents they will get. From that point on it is complyence.


 
Ah, I see.


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## seasoned (Aug 6, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Ah, I see.


Do you really see tez3, or do you truly like just busting on people.


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## rdonovan1 (Aug 7, 2009)

I think that this is a very good and a very important topic as it applies not only to our daily lives, but also to our self esteem and self confidence just as much if not more than the physical aspects of the martial arts and I think that both the Samurai and people like Bruce Lee would approve of such a topic as Bruce Lee once said that it is best to be like water. 

It also tends to make me wonder as to how many people here are into NLP and psychology as I have seen a few posts relating to NLP and to books like Verbal Judo. 

Another good book that I found that relates to verbal self defense is 'Tongue Fu' by Sam Horn and one other one that I found is 'The complete idiots guide to verbal self defense' by Dr. Lillian Glass. 

I've also seen a few other books out there relating to toxic people, but at the moment I just can't remember as to who the author is and it is because of those books as well as my studies of things like psychology, NLP, Hypnosis, seduction, and attraction as well as my own personal experiences that I have really started to look at the topic of verbal self defense as well as my physical security as well.

For me the martial arts is something that I grew up with and like Chuck Norris mentioned in his book 'Against all odds' I basically grew up without a father and as a result I ended up turning to the martial arts for guidance. The only real difference between me and him in that respect is that for Chuck Norris it was the westerns, where for me it was the martial arts.


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## Tez3 (Aug 7, 2009)

seasoned said:


> Do you really see tez3, or do you truly like just busting on people.


 

I wasn't 'busting' on you nor was I being funny, I didn't understand, as I often don't, American idioms.


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## still learning (Aug 9, 2009)

Hello, Physical defense...will always be a big part of everyone training

Most of us go on in life...facing verbal abuses..or situtions where we could have prevent certain situtions from getting worst!

Just that "VERBAL" training should be added in and practice more often...
There are many books out there...just NOT quite suited for our classes...

"How do you handle a drunk person"?  ...is there verbage we can apply from making the situtions worst?  

etc....and so on...many different situtions...HOW can we handle them all?
without physical attractions....

Sure NOT all situtions...will end peacefully......YET?  could it have been handle differenly (verbal)?

Aloha,    Power of words stronger?  or the power of the fist?


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