# Biu Tze Ginger fist



## Eru IlÃºvatar (Sep 27, 2008)

Hi guys! This is my first post on this forum though I have been lurking arround here for quite a while (a year or so) and you guys answered a lot of questions for me. 

My question to you is about the Ginger fist from Biu Tze and its application.. More specificly I'm talking about the move some branches do in the section where you reach out in a grab like motion, turn to the side and the come back to the centerline with a Ginger fist. As I understand it not many people use it as Yip Man sopposedly took it out of the system together with the phoenix eye pretty soon after he started teaching. But I have read on another forum that the Augustine Fongs branch uses the Ginger fist and so does the Moy Yat branch. Infact I heard that in the AFs branch they even do a Ginger fist on the lifting/uppercut punch in Chum Kiu. In the Biu Tzes I've seen on youtube there is mostly a hook like punch done in that section. 

When I've been thought the BT form my instructor showed me the section with the Ginger fist and a few variations of how to use it but he did add that he doesn't really see any realistic use for the move and sudgested I could do a hook like punch instead.

How do you use it? Do you stike with the second knuckles or do you hit with the flat of the palm or something else entirely? If not the GF what do you do in the section? I ask becouse even though I'm not completely comfortable with the move I see some uses for it and am not ready to just discard it. I'd be gratefull for any information on the subject...

Thanks in advance,

Rick


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## geezer (Sep 28, 2008)

Eru Ilúvatar;1046145 said:
			
		

> My question to you is about the Ginger fist from Biu Tze and its application.. More specificly I'm talking about the move some branches do in the section where you reach out in a grab like motion, turn to the side and the come back to the centerline with a Ginger fist...
> 
> How do you use it? Do you stike with the second knuckles or do you hit with the flat of the palm or something else entirely?
> 
> Rick



After reading your post, my first response was "No, we only use the hook punch with a horizontal fist in our Biu Tze form..." and then I remembered that I had seen a ginger fist used in application at some point. And an open palm too. The problem is, I was very heavily into WT in the 1980s  and saw a lot of stuff, but then drifted out of the martial arts for a good 15 years. When I came back I'd forgotten a lot, and a lot of things had changed too.

Anyway, I think the important thing to consider is _application_. I've seen things done differently by other lineages than my own, and have heard my WT brothers ridicule them. But when you examine the variant form _in context,_ or as the demonstrator would apply it, often it makes good sense after all. 

So, if I remember the ginger fist usage correctly, it would be used after the double grapple pulls your opponent past you. As he comes past, you meet him directly in the face with a hook punch. In this application, you may substitute a ginger fist to the throat. The advantage is that it's narrow profile slides more easily under the chin to strike the trachea. The disadvantage is that it is not as strong a configuration as the horizintal fist...especially if you land the strike off target (ie on the face).  And since the horizontal fist can effectively work on _both_ the face and the throat, it's probably the simpler, safer choice.

As for using a hooking palm instead of the normal fist , I've seen that as a variant in a different 
application of the same sequence. In this case the grapple pulls aside your opponent's guard and the hook is delivered to the side of your opponent's head. In this situation, a palm to the ear makes a good alternative to the horizontal fist. 

Now please don't yell at me in large angry colored capital letters if this doesn't seem quite 100% right. I've been away from WT too long, and I admit that I need some brushing up. If anyone has other interpretations, I'm always interested!


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## yak sao (Sep 28, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was very heavily into WT in the 1980s and saw a lot of stuff, but then drifted out of the martial arts for a good 15 years. When I came back I'd forgotten a lot, and a lot of things had changed too.
> 
> Man, geezer, I would love to sit down and have a beer with you and talk about this...do you see these changes as positive?
> 
> My apologies "Eru" for hijacking your thread.


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## mook jong man (Sep 28, 2008)

In TST lineage we use the hook punch , the arm is seized by both hands and you pivot and pull them into a hook punch to the throat or you can pull them into the forearm like a clothes line movement from rugby.
 I'm sure there would probably be a couple more applications for it that i don't know about as well.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Sep 29, 2008)

> Anyway, I think the important thing to consider is _application_. I've seen things done differently by other lineages than my own, and have heard my WT brothers ridicule them. But when you examine the variant form _in context,_ or as the demonstrator would apply it, often it makes good sense after all.


 
I couldn't agree more. I believe that this kind of thinking should be used when looking at other arts too.



> So, if I remember the ginger fist usage correctly, it would be used after the double grapple pulls your opponent past you. As he comes past, you meet him directly in the face with a hook punch. In this application, you may substitute a ginger fist to the throat. The advantage is that it's narrow profile slides more easily under the chin to strike the trachea. The disadvantage is that it is not as strong a configuration as the horizintal fist...especially if you land the strike off target (ie on the face). And since the horizontal fist can effectively work on _both_ the face and the throat, it's probably the simpler, safer choice.


 
As you said the fist really does seems to be the simpler/safer choice. But one thing why I like the Ginger fist is becouse it gives me a good alternative to the Biu Sao for the 'soft targets' becouse it's a stronger structure. Allthough realisticly speaking I don't see my self searching for the Dim Mak points and doing the 12 hit heart stopping techniques in the middle of a chaotic street fight. As far as the palm variation of the Ginger fist goes, I guess it deliveres a stronger blow then the normal palm strike becouse of the smaller surface but besides that.. On one forum I've read (I think it was from a Moy Yat guy) that the palm variation of the Ginger fist should be applyed on the attacking hand and becouse of the knuckles sticking out it couses a numbing affect on the arm but I don't know about that one..

Geezer, could you tell me a bit more about the WT hook? As I've seen it done on youtube by Leung Ting it looks like a returnig Fak Sao with a fist attached to it at the end? Is that about right? When you strike do you keep the fist at the shoulder or is it more at the center of the body?

Thanks for all the responses and sorry for my English; it's not my first language.

Rick


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## geezer (Sep 30, 2008)

Eru Ilúvatar;1046774 said:
			
		

> Geezer, could you tell me a bit more about the WT hook? As I've seen it done on youtube by Leung Ting it looks like a returnig Fak Sao with a fist attached to it at the end? Is that about right? When you strike do you keep the fist at the shoulder or is it more at the center of the body?
> 
> Thanks for all the responses and sorry for my English; it's not my first language.
> 
> Rick


 
I don't know about comparing it to the fak sau. I would say that it has an entirely different dynamic, since it gets its power from the _body turning_ back to center. It is a very elastic, or "whippy" movement, unlike a boxer's hook. And although it continues through to stop in front of the opposite shoulder in the form, in application you contact your target dead in front of your center. I hope this makes sense.

BTW, speaking of the trouble of putting things into words, what language does the term "iluvatar" come from? Is it Old Anglo Saxon or Old German for "light-father" ie "god", (the opposite of the Old Dutch "darth vader" or "dark father") or does it go back further to Sanskrit ilu (light?) + avatar (an incarnation of godhead?). Man, you'd have to be an Oxford Philologist to figure that one out... like the late J.R.R. Tolkien.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Oct 1, 2008)

> I don't know about comparing it to the fak sau. I would say that it has an entirely different dynamic, since it gets its power from the _body turning_ back to center. It is a very elastic, or "whippy" movement, unlike a boxer's hook. And although it continues through to stop in front of the opposite shoulder in the form, in application you contact your target dead in front of your center. I hope this makes sense.


 
Thanks, for clearing that up for me.



> BTW, speaking of the trouble of putting things into words, what language does the term "iluvatar" come from? Is it Old Anglo Saxon or Old German for "light-father" ie "god", (the opposite of the Old Dutch "darth vader" or "dark father") or does it go back further to Sanskrit ilu (light?) + avatar (an incarnation of godhead?). Man, you'd have to be an Oxford Philologist to figure that one out... like the late J.R.R. Tolkien.


 
Well it is a silly username, you got me there.. Frankly, at the time when I registered I did so for the search function of the forum and such and never really intendet on posting otherwise I would have probably chosen a more apropriate username. It's the name of one of the characters in the J.R.R. Tolkiens Silmarilion, a book I was reading at the time and I guess it was the first thing that came to my mind. I didn't really know what it meant but it looks like you figured it out on yourself which is pretty impressive. Please don't think I have a god complex or something becouse I assure you thats not the case


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 7, 2008)

We do the 'ginger fist' in Kamon, although that is the first time Ive heard it called that!!! Do you know why it is called that? You have sparked my interest!!

The chum kil uppercut is more about an arm break as opposed to a strike
When you have a persons arm in tok sao (or a straight arm), your other arm comes round and powers into your opponents straight arm, causing serious damage. 

The Bil Tze uppercut is an uppercut. It is designed to accompany the dragging of your opponent into a crouched position where the uppercut can follow in

Personally I hate uppercuts but if you train them well they can be very useful


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Oct 7, 2008)

> We do the 'ginger fist' in Kamon, although that is the first time Ive heard it called that!!! Do you know why it is called that? You have sparked my interest!!


 
I've been told thats it's called that way becouse of a resemblance to a ginger plant or it's roots.



> The chum kil uppercut is more about an arm break as opposed to a strike
> When you have a persons arm in tok sao (or a straight arm), your other arm comes round and powers into your opponents straight arm, causing serious damage.


 
Nice  I was shown to apply it as an acctual uppercut; for example you Lap sao an opponents hand and you go with an uppercut under the arm and to the chin. I practiced it with Tok sao or rather a tok/pak hybrid aswell. I find it usefull for when you don't really have the place or the angle to do a straigt punch to the head.



> The Bil Tze uppercut is an uppercut. It is designed to accompany the dragging of your opponent into a crouched position where the uppercut can follow in


 
It's interesting for me to see how especialy this part of the form varys from branch to branch. I know there are a lot of diffrences even in the very first section of the Siu Lim Tao but in this section of Biu Tze I don't know if I've seen to branches doing it the same. I wonder how Yip Man did it. If he even had only one way of doing it.

Kamon, you mentioned you do the Ginger fist at you school, do you apply it as strike to soft/vulnurable parts or as a palm strike?

Thanks for the post! this was the kind of feedback and diffrent point of views I hoped for.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 8, 2008)

Eru Ilúvatar;1050464 said:
			
		

> I've been told thats it's called that way because of a resemblance to a ginger plant or it's roots


Thankyou for that. I made my friend chuckle in training last night because he is ginger and liked to think that he could have  a trademark punch lol

I like little things like that



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1050464 said:
			
		

> Nice  I was shown to apply it as an acctual uppercut; for example you Lap sao an opponents hand and you go with an uppercut under the arm and to the chin. I practiced it with Tok sao or rather a tok/pak hybrid aswell. I find it usefull for when you don't really have the place or the angle to do a straigt punch to the head..


 
Yeah soem schools use it is an uppercut. The important thing is that the fist turns as you do the movement. So its like a drill



			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1050464 said:
			
		

> It's interesting for me to see how especialy this part of the form varys from branch to branch. I know there are a lot of diffrences even in the very first section of the Siu Lim Tao but in this section of Biu Tze I don't know if I've seen to branches doing it the same. I wonder how Yip Man did it. If he even had only one way of doing it..


Have you not seen Yip Man doing bil tze? Go on youtube there must be a clip. I've got a dvd with a clip of him on it doing chum kil and bil tze. 
It must be on there. I know that there has been a bit of discussion as to whether the forms filmed by Yip Man and Ip Chun are the real deal or whether both masters changed them for the purpose of the film




			
				Eru Ilúvatar;1050464 said:
			
		

> Kamon, you mentioned you do the Ginger fist at you school, do you apply it as strike to soft/vulnurable parts or as a palm strike?.


Its done as a strike that snaps up from the base


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Oct 9, 2008)

> Have you not seen Yip Man doing bil tze? Go on youtube there must be a clip. I've got a dvd with a clip of him on it doing chum kil and bil tze.
> It must be on there. I know that there has been a bit of discussion as to whether the forms filmed by Yip Man and Ip Chun are the real deal or whether both masters changed them for the purpose of the film


 
I had the dvd you speak of (the one with Ip Chun going threw the forms of the system?) and I've seen Ip Chun doing Biu Tze but I've never seen a recording of Yip man doing it.



> Its done as a strike that snaps up from the base


 
You strike with the second knuckles in an uppercut manner if I got it right?


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 10, 2008)

Eru Ilúvatar;1051877 said:
			
		

> I had the dvd you speak of (the one with Ip Chun going threw the forms of the system?) and I've seen Ip Chun doing Biu Tze but I've never seen a recording of Yip man doing it.


 
Its the black and white fottage apparently doen three days before he died
Its very moving


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 19, 2008)

Interesting I love these post?

Does wing chun have knee strikes?





geezer said:


> I don't know about comparing it to the fak sau. I would say that it has an entirely different dynamic, since it gets its power from the _body turning_ back to center. It is a very elastic, or "whippy" movement, unlike a boxer's hook. And although it continues through to stop in front of the opposite shoulder in the form, in application you contact your target dead in front of your center. I hope this makes sense.
> 
> BTW, speaking of the trouble of putting things into words, what language does the term "iluvatar" come from? Is it Old Anglo Saxon or Old German for "light-father" ie "god", (the opposite of the Old Dutch "darth vader" or "dark father") or does it go back further to Sanskrit ilu (light?) + avatar (an incarnation of godhead?). Man, you'd have to be an Oxford Philologist to figure that one out... like the late J.R.R. Tolkien.


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## DaleDugas (Dec 19, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Interesting I love these post?
> 
> Does wing chun have knee strikes?



This coming from someone who claims 16 years of experience in Wing Chun?

Dude, you are not serious are you?


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## DaleDugas (Dec 19, 2008)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Interesting I love these post?
> 
> Does wing chun have knee strikes?



This coming from someone who claims 16 years of experience in Wing Chun?

Dude, you are not serious are you?

see info below

About Yoshiyahu 		 		
Real NameYoshiyahu Ben Yisrael
LocationSt.Louis Missouri
Primary Art and Ranking_*Wing Chun 16 years of experience*
_
InterestsWing Chun, Bagua Zhang, Yang Tai Chi , Bashi,Northern Drill, Sparring rollerskating and studing TorahArtsWing Chun, Yang Tai Chi

TrainingStudy under a Private Sifu

OrganizationsTai Chi Federation


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 19, 2008)

Actually I asked the questions to get people to share their opinions?

Lol...I use knees, Elbows, different parts of the foot, Crane hand,Wing, Snake fist and even leopard strikes ie Ginger fist oh I forgot phoenix eye fist. But when i asked questions it is generate discussion?

Every lineage is different. May Be I worded it wrong. But anyway. Answer the question. An share some of drills you do with the knee. I can post the chinese names of different knee strikes and discuss their energies. But I don't want to just be preaching and lecturing. I want to have a discussion. If you want a lecture on knee strikes consult your Sifu. If you want a discussion please talk to me?

I might asked a question one day does Wing Chun have high kicks or is Wing Chun an internal martial art? These questions are to spark conversation. I have answers I have studied and learn from my sifu. But everyone experience is different. Plus I have found that We can all learn from each other.


I am sorry if my question upsetted you. But please share your viewpoints on if Wing Chun has Knee strikes.

Let me share a little of my info.

The Chinese word for Knee is

Sut = knee

The reason I asked the question about does Wing Chun have knee strikes. Is because people rarely talk about knee strikes in WC on these forums. If your lineage doesn't practice Knee strilkes I am curious to why? DaleDugas if you feel Wing Chun doesn't have knee strikes I will have more questions for you?



DaleDugas said:


> This coming from someone who claims 16 years of experience in Wing Chun?
> 
> Dude, you are not serious are you?


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 29, 2008)

DaleDugas said:


> This coming from someone who claims 16 years of experience in Wing Chun?
> 
> Dude, you are not serious are you?


 
It's a very valid question. Most traditional wing chun schools do not use knee strkes
Others insist they do not exist in wing chun because they do not exist in the form

Indeed when one of my friends asked Ip Chun whether kne strikes existed in wing chun, he said no.

Many also claim that the raising knee is not meant as a strike but actually as a defence against kicks (very similar to other styles)

In Kamon we don't get too bogged down with whether a knee is a traditional part of the system. We use them, because they work and because they fit into the wing chun 'rules'.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 29, 2008)

Excellent answer...I guess somepeople think I am speaking of throwing a knee out there from far away. But I remember my Sifu taught me how to trap using the elbow and bringing the knee up to elbow...Now from doing hanging horse stance and knee lifts contiously..I can see if I was close enough like elbow striking range...it would be simple to bring the knee up to hit the groin..if I am in a street fight...there are no rules right...so why not use the knee if your like with in elbow striking distance. That could be a great weapon...

Also does Wing Chun strike with the shoulder?



Kamon Guy said:


> It's a very valid question. Most traditional wing chun schools do not use knee strkes
> Others insist they do not exist in wing chun because they do not exist in the form
> 
> Indeed when one of my friends asked Ip Chun whether kne strikes existed in wing chun, he said no.
> ...


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 30, 2008)

Again I've seen many people use their shoulder to strike in the wing chun world

Usually performed from a muen-gen-sao (the shoulder you strike with is the same side as the muen gen sao)

I personally haven't found it very effective, but each to their own


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## seasoned (Dec 30, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Again I've seen many people use their shoulder to strike in the wing chun world
> 
> Usually performed from a muen-gen-sao (the shoulder you strike with is the same side as the muen gen sao)
> 
> I personally haven't found it very effective, but each to their own


 
Body bumping is used in Goju kata, very subtle. Mostly in close in combat to disrupt balance. Taught at higher levels.


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## Yoshiyahu (Dec 30, 2008)

Excellent post...Very interesting guys...So does anyone utilize the Ginger Fist in actual fighting?

Do you guys know of any conditioning techniques?


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