# surefire flashlights...



## AgentSmith (Mar 30, 2006)

has anyone used these or something like them for self-defense purposes? if so, care to share any thoughts?

http://www.surefire.com/maxexp/main/co_disp/displ/prrfnbr/1132/sesent/00

it seems like a really good idea...metsubishi made of light and a relatively non-threatening self-defense tool.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Mar 30, 2006)

I have an E2D and an E2E. True to it's purpose, the E2D is slightly more powerful, but will probably be slightly more stigmatized in the eyes of the law due to it's name being written on it.


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## Phil Elmore (Mar 30, 2006)

I've written an entire book on the topic of using such flashlights for self-defense.  There are several articles on that and related topics at *The Martialist*.


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## AgentSmith (Mar 30, 2006)

nice...thanks for the info.


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## AgentSmith (Apr 2, 2006)

Phil, i read the articles...definitely good stuff.  i decided on this: http://www.taclighting.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=431 based on its price, durability and all that.  i'm probably going to wrap it like a koppo stick.  i'll give a review of the light when i get it.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 3, 2006)

I'm glad you enjoyed them.  *Paladin Press* is now selling my book on the topic, too -- _Flashlight Fighting_.  You'll find it under "new books," at least this month.


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## Carol (Apr 3, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I have an E2D and an E2E. True to it's purpose, the E2D is slightly more powerful, but will probably be slightly more stigmatized in the eyes of the law due to it's name being written on it.


 
That's nothing a Dremel can't fix


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## mrhnau (Apr 3, 2006)

wow... $110 for a flashlight... I've seen alot of overpriced canes too lately. Is it just me, or can you slap the label "defense" on an item and jack up the price? I've got a handful of flashlights that could effectively be used as a weapon, what makes this one worth about 10x the price? it looks like a regular metal flashlight w/ a bright bulb and a little metal work..

nimvarus, you mentioned you had one... do you think its worth that price?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 3, 2006)

I have an Inova X5T as well, and it seems like it would hold up better than any of the Surefires for repeatingly hitting someone with it. On the other hand, the E2D will be more useful as a distraction by it's brightness alone.
If I had to pick one I would probably choose the Inova.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 3, 2006)

The higher prices are usually related to _brightness_ -- the more you pay, the more potentially temporarily blinding lumens you get.  You will normally pay more for SureFires simply because they are the lights most in demand (they are also well made and the choice of many armed professionals).

One other factor driving the prices of SureFires is that the company restricts sales to only those sellers who also have brick-and-mortar establishments.  This effectively cuts out Internet dealers who, having less overhead, can charge prices barely above cost and still make a profit.

The Inova X5 is a nice little light and a great striking implement, but it has nowhere near the brightness of an E2D.


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## ginshun (Apr 20, 2006)

This is a Surefire C2 Centruina wrapped using the metod from Phil's sight.  At lwast I think thats were I saw it.

I carry it regularly, and like Phil said its brightness that jacks up the expense.  This thing is about the same size as a Mini Mag light (slightly shorter and bigger around) and it is brighter than the 4 D cell that I also have.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 20, 2006)

Despite what any new book or internet buzz says about flashlights, they aren't much of a self defense tool. Handy to have? Yes. Effective against a determined attacker? No.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Apr 20, 2006)

Try targeting the face or collarbone with your strikes.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 21, 2006)

Even strikes into muscles can have an impressive effect; the principle is the same as those on which palm sticks work.  Any rigid striking implement is an extremely effective self-defense tool in educated hands.


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## fireman00 (Apr 21, 2006)

I have a "baton-light" made by Streamlight that has a push button on the end for momentary illumination, twist the end cap for constant on/ off and can be hooked onto a keychain (very important to me for  easy access).  

If an attacker isn't blinded by the light then it acts as a very nice kubotan.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much.


 
Here is an extensive article on the chizikunbo.  As far as flashlights are concerned, all of the atemi-waza would directly transfer.  

http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick2.html

Simple physics would dictate that this would be a good weapon.  P = F/A

Where P = Pressure, F = Force, and A = Area.  If one can apply force with a strike AND reduce the surface area that is striking, then one is going to apply MUCH more pressure to the area struck.  Pressure is nothing but applied force...and against a determined attacker, that is something that really matters...obviously.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

I've read Don's article. He's a fanboy of them, not an expert in their use. Simple physics dictates they increase force. Nothing more. At the following link, I argue my opinion on pocket sticks. I'm really not up for repeating it here.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398993


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## Don Roley (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Simple physics dictates they increase force. Nothing more.



I'll take what I can get. Given the choice between hitting someone with my hand or hitting them with my surefire 6p, I will take the surefire. If you are able to hit with a shuto, fudoken or koppoken, you can use the surefire in the same manner. Not to mention the Edo Koppo stuff. If you don't have the taijutsu to get to the other guy or do things like gansekinage, it is just useless. I think a better term for these types of things would be force multipliers rather than weapons.

But aside from their advantages of physics and ability to blind the other guy, perhaps their biggest appeal is in the fact that they are so usefull in everyday life that you are more likely to have it in your pocket even when you have left your "weapons" at home. I sometimes leave the house without my pepper spray, but my surefire is almost always in the left pocket of my jacket. I can get harrased pretty easily by the police in Japan for just about anything suspicious. But I really doubt they would drag me down to the station because I had a flashlight on me.


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Despite what any new book or internet buzz says about flashlights, they aren't much of a self defense tool. Handy to have? Yes. Effective against a determined attacker? No.


Less effective than what? Tools are simply what they are tools. Here is a simple tool, legal in all 50 states and likely even legal in the UK. Certainly less effective than a hand gun but none the less a potentially helpful tool. Personally I wouldn't turn down any edge, even a small one in a confrontation with a determined attacker.

Jeff


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## Kenpodoc (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> I've read Don's article. He's a fanboy of them, not an expert in their use. Simple physics dictates they increase force. Nothing more. At the following link, I argue my opinion on pocket sticks. I'm really not up for repeating it here.
> 
> http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=398993


Slightly increased forces rendered over a smaller area with less give lead to dramatically greater injury potential. Biophysics is rarely simple.

Jeff


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Less effective than what? Tools are simply what they are tools. Here is a simple tool, legal in all 50 states and likely even legal in the UK. Certainly less effective than a hand gun but none the less a potentially helpful tool. Personally I wouldn't turn down any edge, even a small one in a confrontation with a determined attacker.
> 
> Jeff


-Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club.


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## Kreth (Apr 21, 2006)

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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2006)

Physicists have studied Mike Tyson's punching and have recorded that he used to punch with 30,000 newtons of force.  Assuming that Iron Mike's fist has a surface area of 3 in by 4 in, this equates to an applied pressure of 2500 N/in^2.  

If we are to recalculate this using the smaller surface area of a flashlight, (1 in^2), we suddenly see a 12 fold increase in the amount of applied force - 30,000 N/in^2.  In English standard units, the amount of pressure applied by the fist would be 555 lbs/in^2 while the amount applied by the flashlight would be 6666 lbs/in^2.  

This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 21, 2006)

> This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.



Agreed.  That is a simple fact.  To claim otherwise is to ignore the realities of both physics and biology.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much.


 
Well, I suppose there's the test for that... lets find someone who really knows how to use one, you let them crack you upside the head full force with it.  If it does nothing, you win and we all acknowlage they are useless, if it ****s you up than you admit you are wrong...

Deal?


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## Don Roley (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club.



Lets keep this in context. A stick is less effective than a pistol. Does that make the stick useless?

What about a stick _and_ a flashlight to blind the guy?

And I can carry a flashlight almost anywhere. I can even carry it on a plane. Can I do that with an ASP baton?

There are limitations to everything. But to reject them totally instead of taking into account their limitations leads to you not being able to use anything if you follow it to it's logical conclusion.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Physicists have studied Mike Tyson's punching and have recorded that he used to punch with 30,000 newtons of force. Assuming that Iron Mike's fist has a surface area of 3 in by 4 in, this equates to an applied pressure of 2500 N/in^2.
> 
> If we are to recalculate this using the smaller surface area of a flashlight, (1 in^2), we suddenly see a 12 fold increase in the amount of applied force - 30,000 N/in^2. In English standard units, the amount of pressure applied by the fist would be 555 lbs/in^2 while the amount applied by the flashlight would be 6666 lbs/in^2.
> 
> This is a substantial difference and a substantial advantage offered by the use of this weapon.


-Bad analogy. Mike Tyson is not a threat to me. His strike was not a hammer fist. That increase in force may impact the smaller surface harder, so it will likely damage the immidiate area more, but it won't rattle the brain any more. That's because the overall force applied to the head would be the same.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Well, I suppose there's the test for that... lets find someone who really knows how to use one, you let them crack you upside the head full force with it. If it does nothing, you win and we all acknowlage they are useless, if it ****s you up than you admit you are wrong...
> 
> Deal?


-Your strawman proves pocket sticks are effective in SD how?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> Lets keep this in context. A stick is less effective than a pistol. Does that make the stick useless?
> 
> What about a stick _and_ a flashlight to blind the guy?
> 
> ...


-My best argument from the bladeforums thread before I get sucked into typing more than I want to...

-For me it is about a tool that may have some use for LEO's being adopted by civilians. They add to strikes but not by enough imo. They also add an unecessary step to the "SD gameplan". If a civilian's life is not in danger, they aren't needed and could be seen as an escalation. If the situation is life threatning, then you should be using a weapon capable of deadly force. So in a nutshell, they aren't that great a weapon to begin with, and they don't fit into the "SD gameplan" anyway. So why bother carrying one?


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Mike Tyson is not a threat to me.


 
Most likely true, but that isn't the point.  The 12 fold multiplier is the point.



> His strike was not a hammer fist.


 
There are many ways to strike with a chizikunbo, including basic boxing strikes.  A hammerfist is only one way.  With all ways, the decrease in surface area, increases the applied force.



> That increase in force may impact the smaller surface harder, so it will likely damage the immidiate area more, but it won't rattle the brain any more.


 
On the surface, this violates Newton's Third Law of Motion.  For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.  If 12 times the amount of force is applied, then one can expect 12 times the amount of reaction.  Perhaps you have an explanation that would explain this apparent contradiction?  

It seems that logic would dictate that striking someone with a flashlight would not only rattle someones brain around in their head, but it would also break their skull wide open and knock the darn thing out.  6666 p/si is incredible!  Granted, not everyone can punch like Iron Mike, yet, the advantage seems physically clear.



> That's because the overall force applied to the head would be the same.


 
The essence of the math above was to show that the amount of force *applied* was *NOT* the same.  Pressure is a measure of applied force.  In this case, the weapon of choice more efficiently applies force when compared to a weapon of greater surface area.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Your strawman proves pocket sticks are effective in SD how?



Well lets see here is your original Statement:


> Originally Posted by *RoninPimp*
> _Yes, pocket stick sized flashlights are as effective as pocket sticks. Which imo isn't very much._




I dont see the word SELF DEFENCE in there anywere... only the word EFFECTIVE.  Thanks for playing, since you had to change the context I will take that to mean you are unwilling to get hit by one...

Is that because they *are* effective?  If they aren't, why not let someone whack you?  C'mon, man... you said it, time to _*pressure test*_ that theory of yours.


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## Makalakumu (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> So why bother carrying one?


 
Let's say that somebody is scrawny and can only punch with 46.25 lbs/in^2.  Striking with a flashlight, suddenly turns that into 555 lbs/in^2 and they can suddenly apply as much pressure as Mike Tyson!  Seems like a good reason to me!


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Most likely true, but that isn't the point. The 12 fold multiplier is the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


-My point is that the overall force remains the same. It may be applied to a smaller area so there is potentially more damage at the point of impact, but not any more force being applied to the larger target. Try this example...Hit a car door with a hammer fist. Most adult males would dent it. Hit the car door with a hammer fist while holding an ice pick. Most likely you'd get a small hole in the door. The local force applied with the icepick was much higher (assuming the same strike force). The overall force felt by the car was the same in both cases.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Hmm. Getting hit by the soft palm of a hand, or hit by a hard piece of metal traveling at the same speed. I bet that hard item would hurt more. 

The comment was made "Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club."

Well, I don't know about you folks, but a guy carrying a piece of rattan or hardwood looks suspicious. A "caveman" club more so. A modern club such as a baton, nightstick, etc, even more so, unless you're LEO.  A flashlight is beneath the notice of most folks.  

But, lets look at this another way.  
What is "a stick"?
A length of hard wood or rattan. A tool to impart a blunt force impact to a target.
What is a "baton"?
See: truncheon: a short stout club

Ok, so both are simply hand held lengths of hard material, used to impart a blunt force impact to a target.

So, what is a flashlight?
Well, discounting the crap one finds at the dollar store, the average hand light is a short clublike object. Made of metal, it can withstand several impacts with a hard object. I'm thinking of Mag lights or similar. Not the K-Mart specials made out of cheap plastic.

Seems very similar to me, especially when in the hands of someone who knows how to utilize the tool.

The comments about the lack of effectiveness of pocket sticks and their ilk however reveals a lack of familiarity with the tool or it's uses. I don't carry pocket sticks, but I do buy solidly built pens. Those tend to get past security quite easily. But they don't teach the use of such objects in sport arts I've noticed.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Well lets see here is your original Statement:
> 
> 
> I dont see the word SELF DEFENCE in there anywere... only the word EFFECTIVE. Thanks for playing, since you had to change the context I will take that to mean you are unwilling to get hit by one...
> ...


-There are 2 issues here. Kn00b on bladeforums brought this up I believe. They are tactical and strategic. 

Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not. 

Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -My point is that the overall force remains the same. It may be applied to a smaller area so there is potentially more damage at the point of impact, but not any more force being applied to the larger target. Try this example...Hit a car door with a hammer fist. Most adult males would dent it. Hit the car door with a hammer fist while holding an ice pick. Most likely you'd get a small hole in the door. The local force applied with the icepick was much higher (assuming the same strike force). The overall force felt by the car was the same in both cases.


True. But if it was your temple on the impact zone, one would knock you loopier, the other possibly kill you.

But, we're not talking a fine point item such as an ice pick. We're talking about a blunt force impact from a close to knife hand thickness.  I recall Remy Presas being quoted as saying "Hardwoods are for killing". Well, since metal is normally harder than wood, it would (get it would, ha ha) stand to reason that getting hit in the head with a maglight or similar could be dangerous, even deadly.  Blunt force has killed more historically than edged weapons. (which is why some swords weren't sharpened).


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Hmm. Getting hit by the soft palm of a hand, or hit by a hard piece of metal traveling at the same speed. I bet that hard item would hurt more.
> 
> The comment was made "Less effective than a real weapon like a stick or club."
> 
> ...


-No argument from me on a pocket stick hurting more. My argument is that it is not enough to be the deciding factor.


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## Carol (Apr 21, 2006)

Personally, I'm pretty much sold on the Executive Defender with the lanyard kit. That will allow me to connect with an attacker while staying out of reach. Haven't bought it yet, probably will this week. My office is in a relatively isolated area, and I'm about to start working evening coverage.

I can carry a flashlight across state lines without worrying about the laws in either state. This is a big advantage to me up here where the states are REALLY small.

Is it all of my self defense? Heck no. But, it seems like a damn good idea for my own situation.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -There are 2 issues here. Kn00b on bladeforums brought this up I believe. They are tactical and strategic.
> 
> Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not.
> 
> Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.


Strategically - they can be used to target pressure points and other soft targets.

Tactically - Any tool requires proper familarity and training. Your comments reveal you do not have either though.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> True. But if it was your temple on the impact zone, one would knock you loopier, the other possibly kill you.
> 
> But, we're not talking a fine point item such as an ice pick. We're talking about a blunt force impact from a close to knife hand thickness. I recall Remy Presas being quoted as saying "Hardwoods are for killing". Well, since metal is normally harder than wood, it would (get it would, ha ha) stand to reason that getting hit in the head with a maglight or similar could be dangerous, even deadly. Blunt force has killed more historically than edged weapons. (which is why some swords weren't sharpened).


-I'm not arguing against full sized Maglites. I'm arguing against pocket sticks. MiniMag sized SD toys.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -No argument from me on a pocket stick hurting more. My argument is that it is not enough to be the deciding factor.


Next time you roll, let your opponent have a pair. Feeling is believing.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Strategically - they can be used to target pressure points and other soft targets.
> 
> Tactically - Any tool requires proper familarity and training. Your comments reveal you do not have either though.


-Targeting pressure points and soft targets is fine for a LEO arresting a midly resisting suspect. NOT a determined attacker.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Targeting pressure points and soft targets is fine for a LEO arresting a midly resisting suspect. NOT a determined attacker.


 
Have you pressure tested this?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Next time you roll, let your opponent have a pair. Feeling is believing.


-I would argue that I'd end up with a bunch of bruises and maybe bleeding. It would still not be the deciding factor of the outcome.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Define "determined".
Are we talking about the average street thug, an armed assailant, a mcdojo student, a sport fighter, or Bruce Lee on acid? :lol:


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I would argue that I'd end up with a bunch of bruises and maybe bleeding. It would still not be the deciding factor of the outcome.


 
Yes, but HAVE YOU PRESSURE TESTED THIS?


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I would argue that I'd end up with a bunch of bruises and maybe bleeding. It would still not be the deciding factor of the outcome.


But, unless you have tested that, you don't know that for certain.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Have you pressure tested this?


-Yes. I have been hit, poked, prodded, and squeezed on practically every inch of my body while sparring and/or fighting. I have never been knocked out or submitted from pressure points.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> But, unless you have tested that, you don't know that for certain.


-I don't with absolute certainty. It is speculation on my part. Just like it is on yours.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Yes. I have been hit, poked, prodded, and squeezed on practically every inch of my body while sparring and/or fighting. I have never been knocked out or submitted from pressure points.


 
With a metal stick? I bet you would be knocked out with one. Of course this is just academic speculation because you are unwilling to follow Technopunk's advice and PRESSURE TEST IT!


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Yes. I have been hit, poked, prodded, and squeezed on practically every inch of my body while sparring and/or fighting. I have never been knocked out or submitted from pressure points.


But was that by someone a-using some form of pocket stick, and b-who knew how to use them?

Oh, and c-did any of them use a mag lite? :lol:


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> But was that by someone a-using some form of pocket stick, and b-who knew how to use them?
> 
> Oh, and c-did any of them use a mag lite? :lol:


 
It may only be my perception, but Roninpimp seems to make assertions regarding the martial arts without having the willingness to pressure test them.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I don't with absolute certainty. It is speculation on my part. Just like it is on yours.


Nope. I train realistically, and have been choked out by punos, finger locked to the point of tip toeing, choked out with stick, baton, pocket stick and other assorted objects, etc. I have tested it, and when used correctly, they do work, very well.  As to flashlights, I've been hit in the head with rattan. I try to avoid anything harder. That whole, hard to manage a server with only half a brain. (I'm not a Microsoft person. :lol


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It may only be my perception, but Roninpimp seems to make assertions regarding the martial arts without having the willingness to pressure test them.


Alot of people are.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Define "determined".
> Are we talking about the average street thug, an armed assailant, a mcdojo student, a sport fighter, or Bruce Lee on acid? :lol:


-Someone that has the mindset and physical ability to beat your ***. If they do, no pocket stick will help. If they don't, you don't need the pocket stick.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Someone that has the mindset and physical ability to beat your ***. If they do, no pocket stick will help. If they don't, you don't need the pocket stick.


 
Have you pressure tested this?


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Nope. I train realistically, and have been choked out by punos, finger locked to the point of tip toeing, choked out with stick, baton, pocket stick and other assorted objects, etc. I have tested it, and when used correctly, they do work, very well. As to flashlights, I've been hit in the head with rattan. I try to avoid anything harder. That whole, hard to manage a server with only half a brain. (I'm not a Microsoft person. :lol


-If you got choked out by a pocket stick you were in a position to be choked out without one.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It may only be my perception, but Roninpimp seems to make assertions regarding the martial arts without having the willingness to pressure test them.


-That works both ways. Have you pressure tested them to prove they work effectively? I pressure test as much as my training time allows.


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -If you got choked out by a pocket stick you were in a position to be choked out without one.


Yes, but one can resist longer when a blunt object is not present and perhaps counter.  It seems that you rely on speculation in alot of your comments. You might want to consider testing your techniques out sometime in a realistic manner. It'll show you your blind spots quite rapidly.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Have you pressure tested this?


-Is this the best argument you've got?


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## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Well, it is a good suggestion. I have.

Getting back to the flashlights, is there really a good reason to spend that kind of coin on a "tactical" light, or will my $25 Mag work just as well?

BTW: Good stuff Phil.


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## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -That works both ways. Have you pressure tested them to prove they work effectively? I pressure test as much as my training time allows.


 
Yes, sharpie point to the solar plexus - similiar to a pocket stick. About 1/5 the force had the same effect as an empty hand uppercut - and I got to stay an extra 18-20 inches from the assailant. Yes, I've pressure tested empty hand uppercuts - I boxed in college.

No, I must disagree about your willingness to pressure test your assertions. Technopunk made a great suggestion to earlier in this thread and your unwillingness to try it suggests to me that you don't think pressure testing is worthwhile.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Yes, but one can resist longer when a blunt object is not present and perhaps counter. It seems that you rely on speculation in alot of your comments. You might want to consider testing your techniques out sometime in a realistic manner. It'll show you your blind spots quite rapidly.


-Maybe. That's certainly a possibility. That's still not much of an argument for pocketr sticks strategically.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Yes, sharpie point to the solar plexus - similiar to a pocket stick. About 1/5 the force had the same effect as an empty-hand upercut - and I got to stay an extra 18 inches from the assailant. Yes, I've pressure tested empty hand uppercuts - I boxed in college.
> 
> No, I must disagree about your willingness to pressure test your assertions. Technopunk made a great suggestion to earlier in this thread and your unwillingness to try it suggests to me that you don't think pressure testing is worthwhile.


-How in the world did you quantify "1/5 the force". That is very subjective. I pressure test everything I do, every time I train.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Is this the best argument you've got?


 
Since you are unable to answer it, yes.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -How in the world did you quantify "1/5 the force". That is very subjective. I pressure test everything I do, every time I train.


 
Easy. I used a friend's meter long enough to be able to guage my level of force fairly accurately.

You have seen such meters? They used to be very popular. Personally, I don't like "intellectual martial arts" of the type you seem to be espousing. I like to test things to see if they work.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Well, it is a good suggestion. I have.
> 
> Getting back to the flashlights, is there really a good reason to spend that kind of coin on a "tactical" light, or will my $25 Mag work just as well?
> 
> BTW: Good stuff Phil.


-The Sure-Fires are light years (pun intended!) ahead of MagLites. There are plenty of other high quality lights to choose from other that Sure-Fire too.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Easy. I used a friend's meter long enough to be able to guage my level of force fairly accurately.
> 
> You have seen such meters? They used to be very popular. Personally, I don't like "intellectual martial arts" of the type you seem to be espousing. I like to test things to see if they work.


-What kind of "meter"? And what do you mean by "effect"?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -What kind of "meter"? And what do you mean by "effect"?


 
Meters:

http://cgi.ebay.com/Century-Karate-Martial-Arts-PowerLine-Force-Shield-Used_W0QQitemZ7201561129QQcategoryZ36281QQcmdZViewItem

Effect: he didn't get into the building where I was loading (and marking with Sharpies) boxes. Doubled over, but uninjured.

You see, this is one of the quarrels I have with academic or what I call "intellectual" martial arts - an unwillingness to PRESSURE TEST assertions. To use a term that I've heard elsewhere, it seems a bit "bullshido" to me and not effective martial arts at all.

On Edit: bullshido is a recently coined term that means ineffective martial arts.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Meters:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Century-Karate-Martial-Arts-PowerLine-Force-Shield-Used_W0QQitemZ7201561129QQcategoryZ36281QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> ...


Seen those.  Saw something similar at a faire once.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -How in the world did you quantify "1/5 the force". That is very subjective. I pressure test everything I do, every time I train.


 
You haven't pressure tested SD sticks - yet continue to make these blind assertions regarding their effectiveness. I call BULLSHIDO on you.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Meters:
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Century-Karate-Martial-Arts-PowerLine-Force-Shield-Used_W0QQitemZ7201561129QQcategoryZ36281QQcmdZViewItem
> 
> ...


-So the "meter" you used has 2 whole levels of measuring? LOL. And your actual situation is 100% subjective to boot. And since when do you uppercut to the solar plexus? And you had an 18 inch sharpie? That you pocket carry? Something doesn't add up.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> You haven't pressure tested SD sticks - yet continue to make these blind assertions regarding their effectiveness. I call BULLSHIDO on you.


-No I haven't. And your story of "pressure testing" has a bunch of holes in it.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Again though, your input on the effectiveness of these weapons isn't really useful, since you aren't familiar with them and don't train/test with them. 
I've seen similar meters like that one that read off the impact numerically. Tend to be a little picky though, and you have to hit them right. Just like nailing a pressure point. "rofl:


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So the "meter" you used has 2 whole levels of measuring? LOL. And your actual situation is 100% subjective to boot. And since when do you uppercut to the solar plexus? And you had an 18 inch sharpie? That you pocket carry? Something doesn't add up.


 
Uppercuts are generally delivered (if they are the first technique and not a follow up from a right) from the rear arm - thus limiting extension. When you are bent over (labeling boxes), a right cross doesn't have as much force - unless your area of attack is small (the cap of a Sharpie). Do some measuring, the inches add up.

Meters measure in pounds. I've used a kubotan and fists on my friend's (don't recommend full power with a kubotan or SD stick - the force will damage the meter). Come on, man up. You won't try Techno's suggestion because you know he's right - someone properly trained with a SD stick would knock you out.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -No I haven't. And your story of "pressure testing" has a bunch of holes in it.


 
And they are?


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

Considering this is in the Ninjutsu area, I have to ask you Ronin, what training do you have in this art? I see you're BJJ brown belt, which is pretty decent. But how familiar are you with Ninjutsu?  Seems that one should be somewhat familiar with those arts to comment on their techniques.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Again though, your input on the effectiveness of these weapons isn't really useful, since you aren't familiar with them and don't train/test with them.
> I've seen similar meters like that one that read off the impact numerically. Tend to be a little picky though, and you have to hit them right. Just like nailing a pressure point. "rofl:


-I believe pocket sticks to be not that effective. I've stated why I believe that. Again they are minor force concentrators (I won't use "mutipliers anymore because that's not the case) that fit poorly into civilian SD strategy. Those here that believe in their effectiveness have argued with less.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> And they are?


-You have no way of knowing how hard you performed the strike other than speculation. How does a sharpie in hand allow you to reamin "18-20 inches" further away than without one?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I believe pocket sticks to be not that effective. I've stated why I believe that. Again they are minor force concentrators (I won't use "mutipliers anymore because that's not the case) that fit poorly into civilian SD strategy. Those here that believe in their effectiveness have argued with less.


 
If you had ever tried them on a meter, you would know that the effect is SO MAGNIFIED (concentrated) that you have to use far less power or you WILL break the meter.

Face it, you've been called on you assertions, and have come up short. Your position is indefensible but you dont' want to back off from it and lose face.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -You have no way of knowing how hard you performed the strike other than speculation. How does a sharpie in hand allow you to reamin "18-20 inches" further away than without one?


 
Because you can extend it further from your body and even with just a minor waist twist, it will still have sufficient penetration to knock the wind out of someone. I'm next to my Wavemaster as I write this and the measurements are pretty close.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Considering this is in the Ninjutsu area, I have to ask you Ronin, what training do you have in this art? I see you're BJJ brown belt, which is pretty decent. But how familiar are you with Ninjutsu? Seems that one should be somewhat familiar with those arts to comment on their techniques.


-I posted on this thread because it popped up from clicking the "New Posts" button. I haven't trained in Ninjitsu, but it doesn't have a monopoly on pocket stick techniques.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I believe pocket sticks to be not that effective. I've stated why I believe that. Again they are minor force concentrators (I won't use "mutipliers anymore because that's not the case) that fit poorly into civilian SD strategy. Those here that believe in their effectiveness have argued with less.


I don't believe sport fighting is effective in the street, but I still enter tournaments to test my one on one skills in a controlled environment. You haven't tested them, but insist you believe they don't work. Hey, the Chinese at one time believed that their Iron Shirt technique would protect them from bullets. They were wrong.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> If you had ever tried them on a meter, you would know that the effect is SO MAGNIFIED (concentrated) that you have to use far less power or you WILL break the meter.
> 
> Face it, you've been called on you assertions, and have come put short. Your position is indefensible but you dont' want to back off from it and lose face.


-It will not "magnify" the force. The force rains the same, only concentrated into a smaller area. My assertions remain valid. Even if you don't like them.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I posted on this thread because it popped up from clicking the "New Posts" button. I haven't trained in Ninjitsu, but it doesn't have a monopoly on pocket stick techniques.


No, but this was initially about flash lights.  Seems we've drifted things quite a bit.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -It will not "magnify" the force. The force rains the same, only concentrated into a smaller area. My assertions remain valid. Even if you don't like them.


He's tried them. You haven't.  I'll go with the guy who has tested things out rather than guessing at them.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> I don't believe sport fighting is effective in the street, but I still enter tournaments to test my one on one skills in a controlled environment. You haven't tested them, but insist you believe they don't work. Hey, the Chinese at one time believed that their Iron Shirt technique would protect them from bullets. They were wrong.


-I have played with them. I have not sparred full contact with them. Are you saying you have sparred full contact with them to prove their effectiveness?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -It will not "magnify" the force. The force rains the same, only concentrated into a smaller area. My assertions remain valid. Even if you don't like them.


 
By concentrating the force into a smaller area, the increased penetration WILL magnify the effect, or force, of the strike.

Your assertion was that they are not useful in self-defence and that they will not increase a person's ability to stop an attacker. You have stated that you don't think a pressure point strike would knock you out or stop you - just bruise or bloody you. Technopunk offered for you to take a strike to a "pressure point" with a SD stick, and you decline. Why? Because, IMO, you know that he is right.

How do I (or you, for that matter) know if your assertions are valid? You won't test them. I have - on a meter, on a Wavemaster and on a person. Again, I call BULLSHIDO.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Because you can extend it further from your body and even with just a minor waist twist, it will still have sufficient penetration to knock the wind out of someone. I'm next to my Wavemaster as I write this and the measurements are pretty close.


-That extension has nothing to do with a sharpie. What measurements?


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I have played with them. I have not sparred full contact with them. Are you saying you have sparred full contact with them to prove their effectiveness?


I don't play patty cake "karaty".  I've spent some time sucking ice chips, nursing strains and sprains, cuts and bruises and a few dislocations from my training. So, yes, I have gone 'full contact', with control. One doesn't need to land a disabling or killing blow to prove it would be effective when one understands the biology behind things.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> By concentrating the force into a smaller area, the increased penetration WILL magnify the effect, or force, of the strike.
> 
> Your assertion was that they are not useful in self-defence and that they will not increase a person's ability to stop an attacker. You have stated that you don't think a pressure point strike would knock you out or stop you - just bruise or bloody you. Technopunk offered for you to take a strike to a "pressure point" with a SD stick, and you decline. Why? Because, IMO, you know that he is right.
> 
> How do I know if you assertions are valid? You won't test them. Again, I call BULLSHIDO.


-They will NOT magnify the force. They will concetrate the same force into a smaller area. They will potentionally damage the immidiate area more. That may or may not magnify the effect. Tecknopunk's offer is pure strawman. Taking a blow like that does not prove their effectiveness in a SD situation.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -That extension has nothing to do with a sharpie. What measurements?


 
Yes it does. The increased penetration of the top allows a strike to be effective even when not thrown close in, such as an uppercut would have to be. Again, I don't say to throw an uppercut to the solar plexus, just that I can get the penetration with a stick to a vital point that would otherwise require a rear hand empty hand strike of that type (uppercut, shovel hook, etc.).

Pounds per square inch.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -They will NOT magnify the force. They will concetrate the same force into a smaller area. They will potentionally damage the immidiate area more. That may or may not magnify the effect. Tecknopunk's offer is pure strawman. Taking a blow like that does not prove their effectiveness in a SD situation.


So, do it in a test SD situation. If it works in a controled training situation it'll work on the street right?

Really, I don't understand why you seem so closed minded here. You "believe" but you haven't really "felt". To feel is to believe.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> I don't play patty cake "karaty". I've spent some time sucking ice chips, nursing strains and sprains, cuts and bruises and a few dislocations from my training. So, yes, I have gone 'full contact', with control. One doesn't need to land a disabling or killing blow to prove it would be effective when one understands the biology behind things.


-And you believe the increased effect from a pocket stick could be the deciding factor in an SD situation?


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Yes it does. The increased penetration of the top allows a strike to be effective even when not thrown close in, such as an uppercut would have to be. Again, I don't say to throw an uppercut to the solar plexus, just that I can get the penetration with a stick to a vital point that would otherwise require a rear hand empty hand strike of that type (uppercut, shovel hook, etc.).


-You can't be serious. It is physically impossible for a 6" weapon to extend your reach 18"-20".


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> So, do it in a test SD situation. If it works in a controled training situation it'll work on the street right?
> 
> Really, I don't understand why you seem so closed minded here. You "believe" but you haven't really "felt". To feel is to believe.


-I'm not aguing they won't hurt. Or that they won't cause injury. I'm arguing if you can beat the BG with one, you could without one.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -And you believe the increased effect from a pocket stick could be the deciding factor in an SD situation?
> 
> -I'm not aguing they won't hurt. Or that they won't cause injury. I'm arguing if you can beat the BG with one, you could without one.



1- Yes.
2- Maybe, but used correctly, it can add to the effectiveness of technique.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -You can't be serious. It is physically impossible for a 6" weapon to extend your reach 18"-20".


Physically, yes. But, thats only if things only move in a straight line from zero.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> 1- Yes.
> 2- Maybe, but used correctly, it can add to the effectiveness of technique.


-That's where we'll have to agree to disagree. While it certainly possible, it is very unlikely imo to be the deciding factor.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> Physically, yes. But, thats only if things only move in a straight line from zero.


-Huh?


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -You can't be serious. It is physically impossible for a 6" weapon to extend your reach 18"-20".


 
It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine (closer to a lunge punch in extension, but not execution). You get more EXTENSION when you can throw an effective technique that doesn't rely upon a wind-up (hook) or rear armed strike (right cross, uppercut). Measure the distance you have to be from your opponent's body to land an uppercut or shovel hook relative to a strike that leaves your attacking arm in front of your body (extended).

Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.

This arguing over force, concentration, magnification, etc. is semantics. The EFFECT is greater with a SD stick.

Now, what WERE THE HOLES IN MY STORY AGAIN?

On Edit: I get 19 inches over an uppercut and about fourteen on an uppercut - for the same amount of PENETRATION - thus EFFECTIVENESS. ROUGH MEASUREMENTS.


Here I am, documenting the figures in what I write and all you have to say is "there are holes in my story'. What holes?

BTW, kubotans were very popular circa late 1980's early 1990's, but I didn't want to carry a weapon (for legal reasons) so I, after seeing that a sharpie would do almost as well, started practicing with one. Nearest weapon nearest target type strikes.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Huh?


In Kenpo, theres a concept called I think "Moving up the Circle". May be calling it wrong, but the basic idea is that by moving in a circular way, you can close a gap and thereby bring a weapon to target that would otherwise have been out of range. I can't attach a picture of the diagram so hopefully you can follow this. There is a similar concept in the FMA that uses body twisting and momentum as well as foot work to accomplish the same.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 21, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine.
> 
> Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.
> 
> This arguing over force, concentration, magnification, etc. is semantics. The EFFECT is greater with a SD stick.


-It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it. If your "meter' shows that it does, then your test procedure is wrong.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it. If your "meter' shows that it does, then your test procedure is wrong.


 
Did you read my post? Meters (inexpensive Martial art's meters, at least) will only show the TOTAL FORCE of the strike (engineering meters can tell much more). 1/5th the force gave me greater penetration, magnification of effectiveness, concentration, etc.

Again, where are the holes in my story? You seem to be implying that I am lying. Since I was unsure of myself on the amount of extension gained, without sacrificing effectiveness, I measured it for you and described the procedure used.

I used lighter force than I could have because I am in my late thirties and the person was a kid about 17 and I did not want to go to jail - possible, even though I was not the aggressor and he had a documented past of taunting me while I was on my breaks at work - playing chicken with his bicycle against me, etc. (I go for walks on my breaks). It was a touchy issue for me because of the age differences (not size as I am short) and the almost certain job repercussions that going all-out would have entailed.

Again, your assertions regarding SD sticks are unproven, untested and demonstrably false to anyone with ANY training whatsoever with the items.

*You can't back up your arguments against SD sticks, you won't TEST them, yet you remain stalwart in your position. That's bullshido - intellectual and academic martial arts. Unproven, untested, dogmatic.*


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 21, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> In Kenpo, theres a concept called I think "Moving up the Circle". May be calling it wrong, but the basic idea is that by moving in a circular way, you can close a gap and thereby bring a weapon to target that would otherwise have been out of range. I can't attach a picture of the diagram so hopefully you can follow this. There is a similar concept in the FMA that uses body twisting and momentum as well as foot work to accomplish the same.


 
Mine was closer to a Shotokan lunge punch from a seated (bent over) position - not really that, but as close as I can describe on the internet and yet explain how I could gain those 18-20 inches (turns out to be 14-19 when measured), yet retain the effectiveness (concentrated force) of a boxing uppercut (or hook) with only about a fifth the force. Again, I can guage (roughly) my force because I have practiced with a meter.


----------



## Apollo (Apr 21, 2006)

I think we've beaten the pocket stick issue to death here. Ronin is guessing and doesn't train with them. End of topic. Lets get back to the flashlight stuff eh? We're way off topic at this point I think.


----------



## Carol (Apr 22, 2006)

Any recommendations for a quality alterntive to the E2D?

The $20 units from Hong Kong on eBay don't look very trustworthy :rofl:


----------



## Shinkengata (Apr 22, 2006)

What i am seeing, is our friend here offering up statements based on the same(and in some cases less than) logic and theory from experience (or lack thereof) that he hopes to dispel.

Let us hope that RP's ability to choose his battles in the real world is better than his ability to do so online, otherwise someone could be writing his early obituatary one of these days.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 22, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> I think we've beaten the pocket stick issue to death here. Ronin is guessing and doesn't train with them. End of topic. Lets get back to the flashlight stuff eh? We're way off topic at this point I think.


 
Actually, not quite, IMO, but I see your point.

The principles that I _tried _to explain to RoninPimp, apply just as well to SD sticks and flashlights (when used for striking). People who read through the posts can do the same measurements that I did and see the differences that a flashlight (or SD stick, or capped Sharpie) can make over empty hand techniques.

You're right, RoninPimp is just posting and accusing. He won't TEST any of this. That's why I said his assertions smelled of bullshido martial arts - intellectual martial artists are certain of everything but will test nothing because THEY COULD FIND OUT THAT THEY ARE WRONG.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Apr 22, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Any recommendations for a quality alterntive to the E2D?
> 
> The $20 units from Hong Kong on eBay don't look very trustworthy :rofl:


 
I don't know, but I wouldn't scorn a SHARPIE. Seriously, it does take more practice than a tool designed specifically for the job (flashlight end or kubotan), but if you hold one and practice centerline strikes, making sure to have some waist torque in each strike and going from a relaxed position to a strike, you will find them very effective. Think of it like a snake striking. The hardest part, actually, is keeping hold of it when you make contact - that takes real practice. However, the legal repurcussions of using (and carrying) a Sharpie (an object obviously not designed as a weapon) are far less than an unethical civil litigation attorney could make you face with some fancy courtroom rhetoric.

BTW, I think RoninPimp has left the building - apparently all he can say is no, won't work, don't need it, or you're lying ("holes in your story", implies just that).

*Oh, and since this is a Ninjutsu thread, I think the "purloined letter" character of a Sharpie, as opposed to SD stick or flashlight designed specifically for self-defence fits.*

While this SD stick tangent seems to have thrown the thread off, I don't believe it has as the lights can also be used as SD sticks. When I see a mini-mag light, I think kubotan. What about a quick shine to stun, followed by a strike to a vulnerable point with the blunt back of the light? Double whammy.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Apr 22, 2006)

I'm curious to know what the real differences are between a cheap Mag, and these other lights.  I saw the part about light quality, but I've always been impressed with my Mag. So, whats the scoop?


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 22, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -No argument from me on a pocket stick hurting more. My argument is that it is not enough to be the deciding factor.


 
While I understand your point regarding weapon choice and life threatening SD situations, I also understand that sometimes one doesn't have a choice.  One must improvise.  Knowing how to use a weapon like a chizikunbo would definitely help improvise a number of weapons.  And the 12 fold increase in applied force would definitely cause more trauma to the area it was applied.  This gives an advantage to a defender and while it may or may not stop the attacker, the advantage is still there...


----------



## Phil Elmore (Apr 22, 2006)

The Minimag used to be the standard by which I judged all lights.  They're perfectly fine pocket lights and they can serve well as pocket sticks.  The current generation of SureFires, Streamlights, Ledwaves, and even the Chinese imports are simply brighter.  The conventional Maglite is old technology (but Maglite has finally introduced LED lights, from what I'm told).


----------



## Makalakumu (Apr 22, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -It is not semantics. It is physics. Concetraiting the force is not the same as multiplying it.


 
A force, unapplied, is just that.  An object accelerates and picks up momentum.  How the force is applied makes ALL of the difference.  When one concentrates the application of that force, one is applying the force more effectively.

The reverse of the principle is why people do ukemi.  Would you say that since the force of a fall is the same regardless of application, that people don't need to know ukemi?

In both situations, the actual force (F), takes a backseat to application.  

Also, I disagree with your point about these things not causing too much trauma.  I've grappled with my jujutsu teacher while he held one of these things and I couldn't do a darn thing because he would push it into a pressure point and bring on a whole new world of pain.  I wasn't being struck with it, yet, my body had some of the darkest bruises I've ever had.  I doubt you could strike someone with this without seriously hurting someone.  That 12 fold increase in applied force is no joke...


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 22, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It is the fact that the increased penetration allows the strike to come from a further point away from your body and yet have the same effect - closer to a jab, althought that's not how I threw mine (closer to a lunge punch in extension, but not execution). You get more EXTENSION when you can throw an effective technique that doesn't rely upon a wind-up (hook) or rear armed strike (right cross, uppercut). Measure the distance you have to be from your opponent's body to land an uppercut or shovel hook relative to a strike that leaves your attacking arm in front of your body (extended).
> 
> Try it. Get a meter, go full force with a, let's say a right cross. Go partial (1/5 the amount) with a SD stick or a capped sharpie - too much force and it WILL BREAK THE METER. Then see the indentation in the meter shield. Ok, now, imagine if you can, the punch vs. the stick upon your solar plexus. 1/5 the force with a stick will have as much penetration as a full force punch.
> 
> ...


-The holes are your complete lack of understanding physics.


----------



## RoninPimp (Apr 22, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> Did you read my post? Meters (inexpensive Martial art's meters, at least) will only show the TOTAL FORCE of the strike (engineering meters can tell much more). 1/5th the force gave me greater penetration, magnification of effectiveness, concentration, etc.
> 
> Again, where are the holes in my story? You seem to be implying that I am lying. Since I was unsure of myself on the amount of extension gained, without sacrificing effectiveness, I measured it for you and described the procedure used.
> 
> ...


-Your "test" is a subjective joke.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 22, 2006)

Shinkengata said:
			
		

> What i am seeing, is our friend here offering up statements based on the same(and in some cases less than) logic and theory from experience (or lack thereof) that he hopes to dispel.
> 
> Let us hope that RP's ability to choose his battles in the real world is better than his ability to do so online, otherwise someone could be writing his early obituatary one of these days.


-Thanks for your concern, but I'll be just fine...


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## Flatlander (Apr 22, 2006)

*Second Moderator Warning:*

Personal attacks will not be tolerated.  Keep this discussion at a mature, respectful level.  

-Dan Bowman-
-MT SuperMod-


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## Don Roley (Apr 22, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Strategically pocket sticks just don't fit for civilians. Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations. To use more is asking for legal trouble. If you are justified to use lethal force in an SD situation, why choose a pocket stick? Why not a club, knife, or firearm? They all provide reliable lethal force. The pocket stick does not.
> 
> Tactically, a pocket stick adds little. It has none of the leverage a longer stick does. Getting hit with one will hurt. It will likely draw blood quicker than empty hands. It will not stop a determined attacker.



Ok, there is so many false premisis in the above that this will take some time to deal with.

First of all, your underlying assumption seems to be that the mugger will come up and say something like,



> Hello, my name is George and I will be your attacker tonight. The speciality for the attack is knives and fists- more specifically a Gerber Guardian. After you ready yourself and your own weapon I will start the first course.



Yes I am being silly- but I am trying to illustrate a point.

FBI statisitics show that a _vast majority_ of violent attackers talk to their victim before attacking. This is sometimes called the "interview" as a person tries to see if they can distract you or if you are a easy target.

Furthermore, the act of pulling a knife out in the midst of a grappling situation is so common that it is being taught in prisons and is known as the  Jacknife in prison slang.

So you see the idea of _knowing_ what level of violence is going to be justified and being prepared enough to deploy your weapon is a dangerous ground to build on.

The weapons you listed sometimes can't be legally carried. If you show them or deploy them, you run the risk of facing at least a charge of brandishing a weapon. So if someone asks you for directions, or for pocket change or any other distraction and _then_ tries an attack- you will never get to those weapons in time to help. In that case the thing you can legally have in your hand is a flashlight and that may be all you have.

If it is dark, or dim, then there is no suspicious behavior in having a flashlight out and ready. It is not a threat to others in the eyes of the law. If some panhandler keeps coming toward you, you can legally turn the full brightness of the surefire on him without legal problems. That alone can stop some folks from thinking they can take you down as an easy target. If they are blinded by the light, they can't really know what else you have or what you are doing. And if they do press the attack, you have the flashlight already in your hand and ready to go as compared to that pistol still in its holster.

The law generally does not classify a small flashlight as a weapon in the same sense as a stick or knife, etc. If you are facing an unarmed attacker and use it, you are in better legal ground. This is my impression and not to be taken as legal advice. You can honestly say that you had the flashlight in your hand when the other guy attacked you and that is why you used it on the guy. You have a reason to have that in your hand before violence starts. Legally, you can't say that about a knife or even pepper spray in many cases.

If someone comes at me across the parking lot screaming about he is going to kill me- I will grab my knife over just the flashlight. But when things are not that clear from the start- which is the majority of cases, the first thing in my hand is probably the flashlight.

And I do not see how you can say,



> It will not stop a determined attacker.



and yet earlier say,



> Empty hands are perfectly sutable to non life threatning situations.



If a metal flashlight will not do the job- how can the bare hand do any better against a determined attacker?


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 24, 2006)

Leaving aside the question of effectivness, how bright are these lights? My personal experience with LEDs is that they are bright to look into, but throw off absolutely no light past a few feet. 

Can anyone take a picture of a Surefire beam and a Maglight beam lading on something for comparison? I can't belive the cost of a Surefire is justified when there are many decent lights for almost $100 cheaper.


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## Shinkengata (Apr 24, 2006)

MardiGras Bandit said:
			
		

> Leaving aside the question of effectivness, how bright are these lights? My personal experience with LEDs is that they are bright to look into, but throw off absolutely no light past a few feet.
> 
> Can anyone take a picture of a Surefire beam and a Maglight beam lading on something for comparison? I can't belive the cost of a Surefire is justified when there are many decent lights for almost $100 cheaper.



The cost of a surefire is justified depending on your needs and your scope of quality. Many Surefire flashlights incorporate very good materials in their construction, such as a Lexan lens and aerospace grade aluminum casings. Surefire is also known for its flawless beams. That means no dead or weak spots in the beam. Many also incorporate some quite interesting features, such as 5 or 6 levels of light output control.

As far as SD purposes are concerned, there are always useful applications. The strike bezel no doubt causes a nice gash if struck in the head, so a good smack to the forehead with one and the guy could have blood gushing down into his eyes. Or a nice hammering strike just below the nose would no doubt make a believer out of someone. You can also slam it into the solar plexus, and anyone who knows will tell you that getting hit in the solar plexus will knock the wind out of you. And let's not forget the fact that you can always flash the guy in the eyes, and trust me, a surefire will definitely cause some temporary blindness.


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## Apollo (Apr 24, 2006)

So, what I'm reading here is, if you want to try and go for temporary blindness, get a surefire, but if it's simply a solid heavy object to hit with, any solidly built light will do.  Or have I missed something?


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 24, 2006)

Apollo said:
			
		

> So, what I'm reading here is, if you want to try and go for temporary blindness, get a surefire, but if it's simply a solid heavy object to hit with, any solidly built light will do.  Or have I missed something?



Yes, that's about the gist of it.


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## Blindside (Apr 24, 2006)

If people have technical questions about flashlights, like brightness, throw, battery life, etc, well, lets just say these guys are a little bit obsessed.... and really smart and technical.

http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 24, 2006)

Every hobby area has its "one percenters" -- the obsessives who know more about the technical aspects than do everyon else.  I'd say CPF is the home for most of the flashlight one-percenters out there.


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## Bob Hubbard (Apr 24, 2006)

So, one could say they are a really bright bunch?


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## SFC JeffJ (Apr 24, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> So, one could say they are a really bright bunch?



groannnnnnnnnn


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## RoninPimp (Apr 24, 2006)

Phil Elmore said:
			
		

> Every hobby area has its "one percenters" -- the obsessives who know more about the technical aspects than do everyon else. I'd say CPF is the home for most of the flashlight one-percenters out there.


-See, I can agree with Phil E. Candlepower Forums is info central for flashlights and LED tech.


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## Carol (Apr 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -See, I can agree with Phil E. Candlepower Forums is info central for flashlights and LED tech.


 
RoninPimp, you made a point early on in the thread that IMO is worth repeating as it sort of got lost - that using a flashlight can be seen as an escalation in the eyes of law enforcement. 

Could you please clarify something for me?  There are two ways that one could potentially use a flashlight...as a pocket stick, or as a bright light.  

Can you see shining a bright light in a person's face being a point of escalation?   Logically I do not see it that way, but generally logical and generally legal are not always the same things.


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## MardiGras Bandit (Apr 24, 2006)

I love forums! These are among the subjects I have learned a great deal about from forums populated by obsessed people:

Martial Arts
Cockfighting
Nerf Gun Modding
Model Making
Urban Exploration
Shotguns
Politics
Zombie Games

Whenever I have an obscure question that need answering, I find a forum. Forum people are great, even the ones who don't like me. :boing2:


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## Cryozombie (Apr 24, 2006)

No offense to anyone here... but I'm reletivly certain that this will **** you up if I punch you in the face with it once or twice.  

And yes, its a Pocket stick...


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## Edmund BlackAdder (Apr 25, 2006)

The ever elegant Don Rearic wrote a rather interesting article on such things. http://www.donrearic.com/koppostick.html

It details the use, and effectiveness of a "pocket stick" as well as contains several diagrams and photos.


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## DuneViking (Apr 25, 2006)

Wow, way too much $ for me. I happen to have a second job in the summer, security as a park ranger dealing with drunken malcontents or kids drunk and ticked off at life. 

I use maglights, mini and 3-4cell. I prefer the new metal hydride cells to decrease weight too. I don't use the mini as a security weapon. The small mini does increase pressure (force = mass x accelleration; pressure = force per unit area. As Ronin said, it can't increase force, I presume meters must measure increased pressure-heck these aren't my rules, simple physics) but using such also limits my tools in that hand (strike only) without a benefit to cost ratio I am willing to accept. Again I have to agree with Ronin, if I could take an opponent with the mini, I could probably take him easier without it due to increased flexibility in my toolbox.

The full mag, while able to club, is also a most effective subdual device, like an arnis/escrima/police night stick. In my experience, a much better bang for the buck-plus when used to subdue by enhancing armlocks etc, there is much less chance to causing injury than a strike (when practiced and controlled) and can be effective in blocking an edged weapon. It is also highly visible and acts as a great deterrent, and with fresh batteries, is plenty bright. 

The minis _can cause severe damage in the right spot_, too much on areas like the temple etc, and require specific training and practice. They can definately lead to issues with law enforcment, especialy when obviously enhanced for combat. However, _they may be a choice for one of slight build to aid in escaping a potentially dangerous/deadly situation when used at the eyes, temple pressure points with proper and extensive training_. 

As for my experience, started TKD in '73, and I have a few stripes on my BB. We called the sheriff in 10 times last year, most ever. I have worked this job for 3 seasons, '97, '98, '05.


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 25, 2006)

The use of any weapon or implement of any kind can be seen as an escalation of force.  Even confronting someone instead of simply giving in or running away (even when running away is not a realistic option) could be seen as an escalation of force.  Generally speaking, using a _force mulitplier_ (a flashlight, a knife, a pocket stick, a gun, etc.) is justified when you face the imminent threat of bodily harm and you cannot reasonably expect to meet the threat offered with your bare hands alone.  This could be a multiple assailant scenario, a scenario in which you are attacked by surprise and thus immediately at a disadvantage (suddenly fighting for your life), a scenario in which your attacker is clearly bigger or otherwise more powerful than you, etc.  It depends on context and, as always, your judgment as a "reasonable person" in the eyes of the law will come into play.

Those who dismiss the use of force multipliers -- whatever they may be -- on the grounds that the legal threat makes their use impossible are simply preaching unrealistic defeatism.


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## Blindside (Apr 25, 2006)

DuneViking said:
			
		

> The full mag, while able to club, is also a most effective subdual device, like an arnis/escrima/police night stick. In my experience, a much better bang for the buck-plus when used to subdue by enhancing armlocks etc, there is much less chance to causing injury than a strike (when practiced and controlled) and can be effective in blocking an edged weapon. It is also highly visible and acts as a great deterrent, and with fresh batteries, is plenty bright.


 
You might consider this LED conversion for your D-cell maglite, it on the average brighter than the originial, sturdier (can't break a filament by beating on some guy), and your batteries will last WAAAY longer.

http://www.flashlightreviews.com/reviews/diamond_magbulbs3w.htm

Lamont


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

I have converted all my MagLites to LED. I would recomend it to everyone.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> RoninPimp, you made a point early on in the thread that IMO is worth repeating as it sort of got lost - that using a flashlight can be seen as an escalation in the eyes of law enforcement.
> 
> Could you please clarify something for me? There are two ways that one could potentially use a flashlight...as a pocket stick, or as a bright light.
> 
> Can you see shining a bright light in a person's face being a point of escalation? Logically I do not see it that way, but generally logical and generally legal are not always the same things.


-I do not know current laws on this. I would personally feel it was an aggresive action if a stranger shined a light in my face. So they better have a good reason. I would not be surprised if local laws soon addressed this as flashlights get smaller and brighter. The lawmakers would probably include handheld lasers in their legislation too.


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## RoninPimp (Apr 25, 2006)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> A force, unapplied, is just that. An object accelerates and picks up momentum. How the force is applied makes ALL of the difference. When one concentrates the application of that force, one is applying the force more effectively.
> 
> The reverse of the principle is why people do ukemi. Would you say that since the force of a fall is the same regardless of application, that people don't need to know ukemi?
> 
> ...


-I would say that your instructors ability to cause you pain while grappling was due to his controling position. Whether he had a pocket stick or not. I would say learning how to put someone in a controling position is the critical component. The pocket stick would add damage for sure once there, but in the civilian SD context it would be unecessary and potentially a legal headache.

Edited to add: Its probably best that this thread stay flashlight focussed and pocket stick arguments on the new thread.


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