# Say Fong Kuen



## RHD (Jul 11, 2004)

Its time to reveal my true practice in martial arts.
At a very young age I was adopted by an elderly chinese gentleman who had retired to the US from Taiwan.  As a child he taught me a rare and secretive martial art dating back thousands of years called Say Fong Kuen.  In my childhood, the old man taught me 18 classical weapons and all the nuances of emptyhand fighting from the Say Fong Kune system.  At age twelve I underwent a gruelling, week long test, after which I became the current (and now only surviving) grandmaster of the style.  In my teens, I fought in numerous secret "no holds barred" fighting competitions and remained undefeated until I was 20, then I saw the light and gave up fighting.

Say Fong Kuen is an anciect and secretive system based on spontanious movement.  There are no prearranged set patterns or forms.  Instead, a practitioner of Say Fong Kuen learns to move intuitively and create techniques as needed and accordingly.  For competitions we make up our forms according to what's "in tune" with our students' abilities.

Feel free to ask me any questions regarding this mysterious and wonderful Chinese Martial art, but keep in mind that Like other secretive and ancient styles, the history of Say Fong Kuen was passed down only through oral tradition and there is no documented background available.  I was lucky to learn this system because it was one of the only Buddhist systems to survive the great Buddhist "sell out" when the communists took over China.

Mike


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## Black Tiger Fist (Jul 11, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Its time to reveal my true practice in martial arts.
> At a very young age I was adopted by an elderly chinese gentleman who had retired to the US from Taiwan. As a child he taught me a rare and secretive martial art dating back thousands of years called Say Fong Kuen. In my childhood, the old man taught me 18 classical weapons and all the nuances of emptyhand fighting from the Say Fong Kune system. At age twelve I underwent a gruelling, week long test, after which I became the current (and now only surviving) grandmaster of the style. In my teens, I fought in numerous secret "no holds barred" fighting competitions and remained undefeated until I was 20, then I saw the light and gave up fighting.
> 
> Say Fong Kuen is an anciect and secretive system based on spontanious movement. There are no prearranged set patterns or forms. Instead, a practitioner of Say Fong Kuen learns to move intuitively and create techniques as needed and accordingly. For competitions we make up our forms according to what's "in tune" with our students' abilities.
> ...


I'm going to be very honest ,the whole thing sounds like a childs dream put into words ,but as i don't know anything about you or the style ,i'll assume that you're being truthful.

The whole fighting in my teens in no holds barred tourneys sounds like a Frank Dux story. I would like to hear more about "Say Fong Kuen" though.

Is it  Southern,Northern,Hakka,Internal,External etc......

It sounds a little farfetched for a Grandmaster to divuldge everything to a kid of 12yrs old ,it's not impossiable ,but it's very unlikely. Now it could've happened ,but even you'd have to admit ,it's a tough pill to swollow ,with all the fake and phoneys running around on forums these days.

What are some of the therioes and ideals of the style? What other styles influenced Say Fong Kuen? Is it offensive or defensive in nature ,is it a inclose or longrange style?

Does it focus on power like Hung Gar or more on speed like Choy Lay Fut?

These are some questions i have about Say Fong Kuen.

jeff


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jul 11, 2004)

RHD
Good sarcasm is a terrible thing to waste.


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## RHD (Jul 11, 2004)

Black Tiger Fist said:
			
		

> I'm going to be very honest ,the whole thing sounds like a childs dream put into words ,but as i don't know anything about you or the style ,i'll assume that you're being truthful.
> 
> The whole fighting in my teens in no holds barred tourneys sounds like a Frank Dux story. I would like to hear more about "Say Fong Kuen" though.
> 
> ...



How DARE you doubt me!  I am a GRANDMASTER and if you don't believe me I will have students post online to back me up!  They will talk philosophy at you until you give up asking questions about my unverifiable background.

Oh...and it focuses its power internally of course.

Mike


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## auxprix (Jul 11, 2004)

:rofl: 


And how 'bout x-ray vision? And Telekinesis? And laserbeams?

I'll trust your system, like all long lost MA's, has all of these features.


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## RHD (Jul 11, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> :rofl:
> 
> 
> And how 'bout x-ray vision? And Telekinesis? And laserbeams?
> ...



Such horrible manners!!!  Your Sifu must be very ashamed of you, if you even have one that is.  Didn't you learn any respect in your training?  Gosh darn it all I am a GRANDMASTER!  There is no reason to doubt my training or the truth of my system.  There are no laser beams in Say Fong Kuen, it is the art of spontaneous movement as I...the GRANDMASTER...sees fit.

Mike


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## KenpoTess (Jul 11, 2004)

*BLINKS*
Have I walked into an Anime thingy?

Let's keep it 'Real' Guys .. 

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-


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## RHD (Jul 11, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> *BLINKS*
> Have I walked into an Anime thingy?
> 
> Let's keep it 'Real' Guys ..
> ...




It's real unless you can _prove_ that it isn't.  Care to take a stab at it?  Until then I say that I'm the GRANDMASTER of Say Fong Kuen, and I'm here to answer questions about the system...Just don't expect any answers with substance.

Mike


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 11, 2004)

O.K.,you say your style has "spontanious movement".Could you explain that peticular concept to me?


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## KenpoTess (Jul 11, 2004)

* Mod Note

Thread moved to Horror Stories as we all need a good laugh..or cry..

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-

*


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## Bammx2 (Jul 11, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> O.K.,you say your style has "spontanious movement".Could you explain that peticular concept to me?


"spontanious" movement...as in a combustable manner?!


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## Marginal (Jul 12, 2004)

If only this great style had its own web site replete with the guy doing various martial-arty poses while cupping photoshop lens flare effects in his hands....


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## Aegis (Jul 12, 2004)

Can I order a black belt online?


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## RHD (Jul 12, 2004)

KenpoTess said:
			
		

> * Mod Note
> 
> Thread moved to Horror Stories as we all need a good laugh..or cry..
> 
> ...



I don't understand?!!!!  My credentials are no worse than those presented in the Yee Chuan Tao thread in the Chinese Martial Arts section...How come that thread wasn't moved here too.  I refuse to answer any questions about the style that I am GRANDMASTER of until this forum treats me with due respect.

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jul 12, 2004)

I could feel my chi increasing as I read your post. Please allow me to send you three easy payments of 39.95. I want to feel the spirit of the dragon. I know soon that I will be able to have steel swords bent against my chest, and women will find me irresistable. If you do not reply, I will be forced to order from the back pages of Black Belt magazine.


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## RHD (Jul 12, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I could feel my chi increasing as I read your post. Please allow me to send you three easy payments of 39.95. I want to feel the spirit of the dragon. I know soon that I will be able to have steel swords bent against my chest, and women will find me irresistable. If you do not reply, I will be forced to order from the back pages of Black Belt magazine.



More disrespect!!!  Everyone on this forum should hang thier heads in shame for allowing such blatant disrespect for a GRANDMASTER and his ancient martial art.  This is no joke!  Say Fong Kuen is a secretive and ancient martial art passed on from master to stuent for thousands of years.  Just becasue you've never heard of it and there's no way to verify the existence of this system and my background doesn't mean its not true.  By the way, did I mention I'm qualified to teach in at least 11 other styles of martial arts, maybe more?  Right after I became GRANDMASTER of Say Fong Kuen, I went to work learning other arts so that I could blend them into my art of spontanious movement.  

Mike


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 12, 2004)

I have not shown you any disrespect,so,please answer my question.


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## RHD (Jul 12, 2004)

Gary Crawford said:
			
		

> I have not shown you any disrespect,so,please answer my question.



Mr. Crawford, please check your PM.

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jul 12, 2004)

I think Say Fong Kuen is a great idea. I would like to purchase the title of "master" . I have about $20. From this point forward, and I'm not kidding, I'm going to tell anyone who asks me what styles I've studied or what rank I am that I study Say Fong Kuen. Then I will stare off into the distance with a romantic, faraway look. If asked to demonstrate I will do the craziest made up form I can think of  it will look kind of like Paulie Zink mixed in a blender with Elvis stage moves and Bruce Lee noises. I know that all this started, RHD, as a commentary about another thread. But Say Fong Kuen has taken on a life of its own. We could make up animal forms, like cockroach and drunken squirrel. We'll do them once and forget them.


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## Tgace (Jul 12, 2004)

Is there a video tape study course?


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## Zepp (Jul 12, 2004)

You could also make up forms based named after Ben and Jerry's ice cream flavors.

_Feel the power of DJ's Candy Drawer number 1!_


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## lonecoyote (Jul 12, 2004)

Yes Tgace there must be a video course, and you can join the association, naturally, a lifetime membership is preferable. The videos will cover how to baffle with bull#@$@ any nonma or ma for that matter, with obscure terms in various different asian languages . Also will be included: how to throw out zen like statements that no one will understand, how to appear deep and mystical , and how to handle adoration. If RHD doesn't come back, I am going to form a splinter group as I am not sure he understands the REAL Say Fong Kuen.


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 12, 2004)

RHD,Thank you so very much for that insiteful PM.I shall drop all of my other affiliations and become one of your followers.Should I shave my head?or anything else?Where do I go for my Tatoo?Bowing-I'm not worthy!,I'm not worthy,I'm not worthy!!!


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## RHD (Jul 13, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> Yes Tgace there must be a video course, and you can join the association, naturally, a lifetime membership is preferable. The videos will cover how to baffle with bull#@$@ any nonma or ma for that matter, with obscure terms in various different asian languages . Also will be included: how to throw out zen like statements that no one will understand, how to appear deep and mystical , and how to handle adoration. If RHD doesn't come back, I am going to form a splinter group as I am not sure he understands the REAL Say Fong Kuen.



lonecoyote, I am officially promoting you to "sifu".  You have displayed a strong grasp of the Say Fong Kuen system.  For those who are inquiring about video training, please contact me through private e-mail and I will send you a $price$ list.  Since this wonderful art is secretive and ancient, and you will be learning from me: THE GRANDMASTER, it ain't going to be cheap...
And remember, when confronted by those who question, don't give straight answers.  Instead, use philosophy and avoidance techniques, and if possible complain to forum moderators about your detractor's.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 13, 2004)

The secretive practice 
Say Fong Kuen in the meadow
The grass grows by itself.

I spin, drop, stand again,
turning this way and that,
finding stillness in lunacy.


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## auxprix (Jul 13, 2004)

So what is the translation of Say Fong Kuen?

Also, how do you practice your techniques, since they sound too dangerous to warrant sparing (even with heavy pads)? Hell, I'd think twice before using it on a heavy-bag...Or anywhere, for that matter. You'd be surprised how easily ancient secret weapons can knock down moderate sized buildings when handled improperly.


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## RHD (Jul 13, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> The secretive practice
> Say Fong Kuen in the meadow
> The grass grows by itself.
> 
> ...




That sounds less like spontaneous movement and more like what happens before the technicolor yawn.  I suggest practicing spontaneous movments in your backyard in your underwear at 2AM...The elemental forces are strong then and one can really feel "oneness".

Translation:  Say Fong Kuen means "Four Direction Fist" as in forwards, backwards, right and left...of course it all depends on which way I'm facing.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 14, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> That sounds less like spontaneous movement and more like what happens before the technicolor yawn. I suggest practicing spontaneous movments in your backyard in your underwear at 2AM...The elemental forces are strong then and one can really feel "oneness".


I have done this, but perhaps I'm confusing "oneness" with "aloneness".


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## lonecoyote (Jul 15, 2004)

I must inform the members of this forum that , after being promoted to the rank of sifu in Say Fong Kuen, I am now splitting from RHD. I am now promoting myself to GRANDMASTER of my own, better system which will either be called either Sa Fung Kwoon, Say Fong Kuen Concepts, Modern Say Fong Kuen, Shaolin Chuan Fa Hop Bup Choy Kwan Mu Do La Di Da, or simply, Red Dragon. It was only after long and studied consideration that I made this move. I could no longer tolerate the politics of Say Fong Kuen. Those who remain loyal to RHD, I assure them that my new system is better because we have now integrated nonsensical terms in Portugese guaranteed to mystify BJJ stylists. This is much better for the cage.


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## auxprix (Jul 15, 2004)

I practiced some Say fong kuen in my backyard yesterday, and I kinda hurt myself. Also, all of my neighbors were laughing and didn't seem to fear my skills. Am I practicing spontaneous movement incorrectly?


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 15, 2004)

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHA! This is getting too funny!


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## GaryM (Jul 15, 2004)

I have a spontaneous movement every morning. I say fong kuen two.


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## RHD (Jul 16, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> I must inform the members of this forum that , after being promoted to the rank of sifu in Say Fong Kuen, I am now splitting from RHD. I am now promoting myself to GRANDMASTER of my own, better system which will either be called either Sa Fung Kwoon, Say Fong Kuen Concepts, Modern Say Fong Kuen, Shaolin Chuan Fa Hop Bup Choy Kwan Mu Do La Di Da, or simply, Red Dragon. It was only after long and studied consideration that I made this move. I could no longer tolerate the politics of Say Fong Kuen. Those who remain loyal to RHD, I assure them that my new system is better because we have now integrated nonsensical terms in Portugese guaranteed to mystify BJJ stylists. This is much better for the cage.



Dammit, I knew this would happen.
Lonecoyote, I banish you from Say Fong Kuen for disloyalty.  I suggest you go to Hawaii and study a much more legitamate art:  Yee Chuan Tao  

Mike


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## Baytor (Jul 16, 2004)

And now, my jerry springer impersonation....

Lonecoyote, looks like you just got own3d by your old grandmaster.  Are you going to take that?


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## Baytor (Jul 16, 2004)




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## lonecoyote (Jul 16, 2004)

Banish me if you must, but I think you and I both know it is because Modern Combat Sa Fung Kwoon Concepts (MCSFKC) is much better for THE STREET. I will trademark both terms, MCSFKC and THE STREET. Our spastic, jerky spontaneous movements are different than the classic ,flowery spontaneous moves of traditional Say Fong Kuen. We also practice in combat fatigues instead of the traditional Say Fong Kuen jockey shorts. Our terms are different too, Try this on for size- the ultimate ground fighting joint dislocating move- the OMOGUNGAPLATACANACHIQUITABANANA.


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## auxprix (Jul 16, 2004)

I'm begining to doubt the legitimacy of Say Fong Kuen. Could you drop a few famous names to put my mind at ease? Autographed pictures if possible.

Also, could you tell me about any sort of streetfighting experience you may have had with SFK? I will not accept anything less than deadly tournements that take place in secluded Island kingdoms that I haven't heard of.


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## RHD (Jul 17, 2004)

auxprix said:
			
		

> I'm begining to doubt the legitimacy of Say Fong Kuen. Could you drop a few famous names to put my mind at ease? Autographed pictures if possible.
> 
> Also, could you tell me about any sort of streetfighting experience you may have had with SFK? I will not accept anything less than deadly tournements that take place in secluded Island kingdoms that I haven't heard of.



Sure, here's some names:
Lai Hong, Wing Wen, Chow Tai, Lueng Bing....etc...
And for my deadly fighting experience please read the original post.  Doubt if you must, but try to prove me wrong since there are no documentable facts.  And remember, if you keep this up my students and friends will appear online to talk philosophy at you and dodge more questions!

Lonecoyote,  I must admit, your combat fatigues uniform is quite impressive.  However, it doesn't match the flowing movements of Say Fong Kuen done in either a blaze orange wrestling singlet or in one's underwear.  Sorry, your splinter art is an illigitimate bastard child of the real thing.  Of course there are way$ in which you could return to the fold...

Mike the GRANDMASTER of Say Fong Kuen


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 17, 2004)

I like ninja smoke bombs. They make me dissapear faster.

So was that endless philosophy remark aimed at me? Geez. That was pretty mean! I wanna be a ninja too.

Dave


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## Keaka o Kanaka (Jul 17, 2004)

I want to be able to fly.  Can Say Fong Kuen teach me to fly?  Maybe I should ditch out on my sifu so I can learn how to fly from you guys.  And those names!  Those were way cooler sounding than the names of real people that Sifu Mike uses as references.  I no longer wish to partake in a martial art that defaces and disgraces kung fu as a whole.  Please oh wise one please!  I beg of you!  Accept me as your humble student...


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## RHD (Jul 17, 2004)

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> I want to be able to fly.  Can Say Fong Kuen teach me to fly?  Maybe I should ditch out on my sifu so I can learn how to fly from you guys.  And those names!  Those were way cooler sounding than the names of real people that Sifu Mike uses as references.  I no longer wish to partake in a martial art that defaces and disgraces kung fu as a whole.  Please oh wise one please!  I beg of you!  Accept me as your humble student...



Waaaaaaah Waaaaaaah Waaaaaaaah you're picking on me!
Where's the moderators?  I won't tolerate this blatant disrespect!

Mike


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## chee (Jul 18, 2004)

_"_All men strive to grasp what they do not know, while none strive to grasp what they already know; and all strive to discredit those things in which they do not excel. This is why there is chaos."​_Zhuang Zi (Warring States Period)_​


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## RHD (Jul 18, 2004)

chee said:
			
		

> _"_All men strive to grasp what they do not know, while none strive to grasp what they already know; and all strive to discredit those things in which they do not excel. This is why there is chaos."​_Zhuang Zi (Warring States Period)_​



Looks like the Hawaiian mafia has zeroed in on me here in the Horror Stories forum.  Lookout everyone, I sense much philosophizing, preaching, and "holier than thou"ness coming in over the horizon.  How about some quotes from the Tao Te Ching or SunTzu?  Any catchy pearls of wisdon you're holding back?  For somone who's sifu dislikes competition, you folks sure like to try to be one up!

Calling all loyal devotees of Say Fong Kuen:  The Hawaiin Yee Chuan Tao mafia is after me because they're angry that I refuse to acknowledge authenticity to their art or thier leader's background.  Please come protect me and spit philosophy and quotes back at them!

Mike


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## grappling_mandala (Jul 18, 2004)

... the horror ... the horror ...


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## Gary Crawford (Jul 18, 2004)

OH NO!! Time to practice RUN FU!!!!!


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## Keaka o Kanaka (Jul 18, 2004)

We have no problem with you not accepting the authenticity of Yee Chuan Tao.  We could seriously care less about you.  It's the fact that you are mocking it and deterring others who could possibly be interested in the art.  You are saying that we are an illegitimate martial art, and yet you know nothing about us.  You have never met us or seen what we do.  You say that we can't possibly be an authentic martial art due to the lack of lineage, and yet you yourself have never listed yours.  In fact, when your sifu was brought up, you quickly dismissed him as not being the point of the subject and continued attacking us.   If lineage is something you need, Sifu Rob Moses is a direct descendent of Chu Chu Kai and has direct lineage.  If that makes him a legitimate teacher then there ya go.  Even if we were to give you the names of the past masters of Yee Chuan Tao, you wouldn't even know who they are.  That's not something you can look up on the internet.  You have no right to slanderize our school when you know absolutely nothing about it.  Only if you came to our school and tried our martial art, and didn't like it at all, would you have the right to say anything negative about it.  Besides....I still want to learn how to fly.  If Say Fong Kuen can teach me how to do so...then I'll join right away.  Cause you guys sure have a kick *** sounding name.  <says Say Fong Kuen in head several times>  Kick *** sounding name...


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## someguy (Jul 18, 2004)

Hey I wanna be a Master. Can I be one. Please. If not I'll just go make myself a new style. And then I'll be the Grand Master. My style will be called hmmm Wut thuh *** style.
Edited for circumvention of the profanity filter.
Seig
MT Operational Admin


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## Flatlander (Jul 18, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Looks like the Hawaiian mafia has zeroed in on me here in the Horror Stories forum. Lookout everyone, I sense much philosophizing, preaching, and "holier than thou"ness coming in over the horizon. How about some quotes from the Tao Te Ching or SunTzu? Any catchy pearls of wisdon you're holding back? For somone who's sifu dislikes competition, you folks sure like to try to be one up!
> 
> Calling all loyal devotees of Say Fong Kuen: The Hawaiin Yee Chuan Tao mafia is after me because they're angry that I refuse to acknowledge authenticity to their art or thier leader's background. Please come protect me and spit philosophy and quotes back at them!
> 
> Mike


Alright, Mike, I have this to say. 

1. I really do not see how any of this should make any difference to you. Are you bored with just studying your art, and letting others study theirs? Then try something new. 

2. Who are you to judge another? I have read the YCT thread. I do not recall these people ever asking for your opinion.

3. I think it's about time that you've read the forum rules. I am not a moderator, so feel free to tell me to stick it, but what you are doing here is going way beyond "friendly discussion".

4. Grow up. I grew out of this garbage in junior high school. You have stated your opinion, good enough. I don't think ridiculing and mocking reflects very well on you. You are getting close to losing your oportunity to have my respect. From what I can glean into your personality, that probably has no meaning for you. I shudder to think that you may hold some position of influence in your little world.

5. What makes Hung Gar any more legitimate as an art form than YCT? Go ahead and try to justify this. Go ahead. Let's see your logical capabilities. Let's start with your definition of "legitimate".

6. This started out as funny, but I'm no longer amused. If you keep this up, I can see people choosing not to come here anymore because of you. That reflects very badly on your respect toward the Administrators of this forum.

7. These YCT students have already declared their intention to travel and compete in the Taiji Legacy. Will you be there to witness and provide support for your position on this? Or will you sit in front of your computer and pout because the world hasn't been fair to you?

I honestly hope that you don't reply to this post. I have better things to do than point out your foolishness, but this is getting kind of sick. Your opinion does not a fact make. Keep that in mind.

Dan.


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## RHD (Jul 18, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Alright, Mike, I have this to say.
> 
> 1. I really do not see how any of this should make any difference to you. Are you bored with just studying your art, and letting others study theirs? Then try something new.
> 
> ...



Wow Dan, sorry you're so offended.

1) I am deeply concerned with the quality of CMA's being taught.  People are free to practice what they like and believe what they like.

2) This is a discussion forum.  It's a place to express opinions, if you don't like mine then don't read my posts.  Would you rather that people who read this forum simply nod and say "that's great!" to everything people post here?

3) If I'm breaking forum rules then the moderators are free to ban me.

4)  You're right, in my little world I could care less whether you respect me or not.  Who are you that I should be so concerned with your respect?

5) Hung Gar has a clearly traceable history and training structure.  I think you would be hard pressed to find a practitioner of that system that wouldn't be glad to answer questions about it or about thier own backgrounds.

6) I seriously doubt that one joke thread will discourage others from participating in this forum.  It's an online forum...Are you taking things too seriously?  Are you sitting in front of your monitor anxiously awaiting the next "outrage"? 

7) No, I won't be attending Taiji Legacy because of career demands.  I am not however, sitting in front of my computer pouting about anything.  If that's the perception you have, then I'm sorry to inform you that I am not unhappy, jealous, or pouting...

 :uhyeah: 

Mike


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## RHD (Jul 18, 2004)

Keaka o Kanaka said:
			
		

> You have no right to slanderize our school when you know absolutely nothing about it.  .



Slander?  Hmmmm...Are you folks so upset that you're prepared to take an anonymous nobody to court for a slander suit?  I only read the information presented on your school's website.  If it's not true, don't publicize it.  If it is true, be prepared to back it up.  If you publically claim to be undefeated in underground cage matches then your credibility is zero if you can't prove it.  My Say Fong Kuen thread is a perfect example of this.  No one can disprove my claims...so does that make them true?

Believe what you want Keaka, if you don't like my opinions don't listen to them.  

Mike


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## lonecoyote (Jul 18, 2004)

Just how upset can one get about this? It's the internet, for gosh sake, everyone is a self appointed expert and opinions here are pretty cheap. Taking this stuff personally is pretty silly. I see Say Fong Kuen as a way to poke a little fun at all martial arts of dubious heritage, not just Yee Chuan Dao, which I have no idea about, and may be the most legitimate martial art out there. All Chinese martial art backstories sound a little hinky to me, actually.   I think all mas are full of self promotion, and packaging and, well, mythology, I don't care whether you're talking about the burning down of the Shaolin temple, and subsequent escape of several martial arts founders, the Korean mas link to the Hwaoran, or Taekyon, making them all 3000 yrs old or whatever, the Japanese ninja, or more recent martial arts stories there are always at least a couple of things about the founding of any system  that make any thinking human being a little skeptical. It would be great if we could drop the mystical stuff, but it keeps people interested I suppose. Lots of myths and stories about supposedly unbeatable hardcore modern combat oriented no kata stuff too, or grappling stuff, in fact this mythology is being written even as we speak on other forums by people involved in a pretty extreme groupthink mentality. I think we could all lighten up a bit. For my part, modern combat Sa Fung Kwoon concepts will live on, even if this thread gets shut down.


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## Flatlander (Jul 18, 2004)

RHD said:
			
		

> Wow Dan, sorry you're so offended.
> 
> 1) I am deeply concerned with the quality of CMA's being taught. People are free to practice what they like and believe what they like.
> 
> ...


Mike, my concern stems from the ridiculing that people are taking in this thread that seems to be nothing more than satirizing the beliefs of another human, who, as you say, is



> free to practice what they like and believe what they like.


If they are free, then allow them to be so.

1.  If you are so concerned, then change it as best you can.  From within your own organization.  Discrediting others does not add credibility to you.  Why the concern over the training others recieve?  At least they are learning something.  If it truly has no value, they will learn that in their own way, in their own time.  You must agree that nothing you say will 'do it' for them.  Change comes from within.

2.  Good point.  But, who are you to attempt to discredit?  I understand the emotion behind it, but, given the likelihood of affecting change in this venue, I fail to see the value of the effort.  Particularly when you resort to schoolyard tactics.

3.  Again, good point.  But I'd rather it not have to go that far.  Why push the envelope?

4.  Nor should you require me to.  But wouldn't the world be that much of a better place if we could all just get along?  

5.  I seem to be talking to one, so, go ahead.

6.  I don't doubt it at all.  I wouldn't stick around if I was being ridiculed.  There's tons of other boards to check out.  I'm partial to this one.  I've been treated pretty good here.  I'd like others to be able to share that without having to put up with insecure lashings out.  Therefore, I do what I can to help out.

7.  I am glad of that.  

Basically, Mike, I think the problem that I have here is your intolerance.  The way an artform is legitimized is through it's application - not documentation.  I could tell you I know the art of Dan-Fu.  Is it legitimate?  Who cares what anyone thinks.  I can move in effective ways.  Good enough for me.  My instructor moves well.  I don't care what he's teaching me, I'm learning.  I know more than I did before.  Thus, it's legitimate to me.  That's it.  That's my point.  Can we (you and I) be cool with that?

Dan.


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## Keaka o Kanaka (Jul 18, 2004)

Thank you very much flatlander...That was very well said...


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## RHD (Jul 19, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Basically, Mike, I think the problem that I have here is your intolerance.  The way an artform is legitimized is through it's application - not documentation.  I could tell you I know the art of Dan-Fu.  Is it legitimate?  Who cares what anyone thinks.  I can move in effective ways.  Good enough for me.  My instructor moves well.  I don't care what he's teaching me, I'm learning.  I know more than I did before.  Thus, it's legitimate to me.  That's it.  That's my point.  Can we (you and I) be cool with that?
> 
> Dan.



Dan, I really do understand what you're saying.  The problem here is that Mr. Vendrell has some pretty outrageous claims listed publically on his website.  These are selling points for his business.  Since he's using these points to highlight the uniqueness, efficacy, and legitimacy of what he teaches, he should have concrete evidence to back them up.  His students very obviously love him and that's admirable, but faith does not a CMA make.  Debating what is a legitmate CMA and what is not, isn't the point here.  The point is, be prepared to prove what you claim.

My thread on Say Fong kuen is a blaring example of why I doubt the Yee Chuan Tao claims.  No one can disprove that Say Fong Kuen exits or I am grandmaster of that system...Does that mean its real?  No.  However, I am not using my online claims to sell a business, a situation where closer scrutiny is due.

I _am_ intolerant of anyone who claims such things but can't or won't provide concrete proof to back up his claims.  It presents badly for CMA and indeed for all MA's.  Granted, I am not the official representative for what is and what isn't a CMA, but I will fervently pursue that which in my opinion, detracts from them.

Mike


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## Flatlander (Jul 19, 2004)

And I can dig that.  I feel it is a just cause, in a general sense.  Personally, I have no opinion on YCT.  

I figure that the point regarding SFK has been made, and you've done it in a creative way.  But can you see that it's simply ridicule and finger pointing?  I'm sure that if you do your research, and put as much effort into your endeavour as you have creatively into this thread, you'll achieve a more meaningful result, without the disrespect. 

At any rate, I think you hear me, so that's cool enough.  That's all I was after.  I'll leave it alone now.  

Good luck to you, Mike.  I'm glad we could deal with this positively.

Dan.


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## Marginal (Jul 19, 2004)

"An angry duck's quack still will not echo."

-Nameless


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## Marginal (Jul 19, 2004)

"The less I learn, the more I know."

-Nameless


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## KenpoTess (Jul 19, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

We all know why this thread was moved to Horror stories.. if it becomes Personal it's crossed the line and I believe it's reached over into that area.  If people who are Legit in their Art wish to discuss their art in a mannerly fashion, Please feel free to do so in one of the Fora's on the board.  This has gone on long enough and I'm locking the thread pending Admin Review.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


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