# Interesting class



## JasonASmith (Sep 16, 2006)

We had an interesting class the other day at the Dojo...
Sensei ended the class by showing us a kata from the other M.A. that is blended(I don't like saying "mixed") with the Shotokan that he's teaching...
It's a form of Silat, and it's applications are...well...Brutal.
After class, Sensei pulled me aside(he seems to be doing that a lot these past few weeks, probably because I am the most sturdily built of the white belts and can take a hit), and ran through some of the bunkai(not sure of the Indonesian word) for the kata...yikes!  
I can see now why Sensei has added some of the practices of this form of Silat to the hard-core Shotokan that we are learning...It just fits well...disturbingly well, at that...


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## Grenadier (Sep 18, 2006)

It's good to see that you're getting some insights into other systems.  

When it comes to the interpretation of the kata, though, there are often times several ways to interpret the same form, even within the same school.  The bunkai / oyo for a kata can start out as basic blocking and attacking, in order to strike an attacker, but as one progresses, he may be given a new level of interpretation.  

Now, instead of a block simply being a block, that same motion can be used for joint locks, strikes, etc.  A hand that had earlier pushed away an attacker's arm now might be bending that attacker's arm bone, and so forth.


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## TimoS (Sep 18, 2006)

I know some people who think that if it isn't the official and/or original bunkai of the kata, it is just about useless. Myself, I think that if it works and you don't need to break the form completely, then it's a good application.


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## Shrewsbury (Sep 18, 2006)

Silat is very brutal and the pounding strikes are quite different from other systems. We incorporate silat with our bagua and tai chi, it is a nice compliment to any style.

Form application is endless, when you think of throwing, striking, pressure points, energy, locking, and other things, a single move can have numerous apps, add a move in before, after, or both and the possibilities are nearly endless.


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## JasonASmith (Sep 20, 2006)

Sorry that I haven't responded sooner, I've been sick for the past 4 days(Viral Meningitis-a new one for me)...I was just blown away by how easily this form of Silat and Shotokan came together as one...I would have figured that there would have been stark differences(there probably are, I just haven't seen them as of yet) between the two arts.
That quote by Bruce Lee when he mentions the tree and its' branches  really does hold merit, doesn't it?


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## JasonASmith (Sep 30, 2006)

Just to keep this going, we did some more Tjimande at the end of class today...It was the same kata, but that's how you learn...repetition and practice...He did say something interesting about this kata, though...
O'Sensei is fond of saying that this kata should take 1/2 HOUR to perform!...Every move is excruciatingly(sp?) deliberate...It's an exercise in killing your leg muscles, because EVERY stance and movement is done in the deepest stance that you can manage...then go down another 1/2 inch deeper...I think that my legs are going to fall off...
Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 30, 2006)

Happy you are enjoying the class.

May i ask a favor   Please do not type in large bold letters
  thanks


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## JasonASmith (Sep 30, 2006)

tshadowchaser said:


> Happy you are enjoying the class.
> 
> May i ask a favor Please do not type in large bold letters
> thanks


 
Sorry,  I'll remember that in the future...


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 30, 2006)

Thank you sir.

Your classes sound interesting  please keep us informed of how they go


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## JasonASmith (Oct 5, 2006)

Ahh!!! More Tjimande tonight!
Sensei knows that I like working on this(because I'm insane!), and he seems to be opening up a little more to some of my questions about the art in general...
Shotokan is number one for me of course, but this form of Silat is very interesting to me for some reason...Probably because it's such a workout, and I REALLY like doing leg work...When I still lifted weights hardcore, leg day was my favorite day...
The other reason that I like it so much is that it's meditation in motion...To me, it's almost like Tai Chi...It's done slowly, with no power to the movements.  It's only when you work the bunkai for this kata that you realize how deadly it is...That's not the reason I like it(it's almost scary to think about it that way), of course...:erg:


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## Carol (Oct 5, 2006)

I train in Silat.  It is brutal...and my legs are still burning from last week's class.

The takedowns are very effective, and are a particularly good weapon for someone like me that is likely to face an attacker that is more than double my weight.  

Silat must always be practiced SLOWLY.  In real life, if the attacker resists, they risk neck injury, paralysis, or...worse.  This isn't an art to do recklessly.   

In the dojo, when paired, we must train so our training partners are unharmed.  It takes skill, and a lot of trust.  Glad you are enjoying it


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## SFC JeffJ (Oct 5, 2006)

I have had absolutely no exposure to Silat.  Would love too though, looks nice and nasty!

Keep us posted on how this is going for you.

Jeff


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## Carol (Oct 5, 2006)

JeffJ said:


> I have had absolutely no exposure to Silat. Would love too though, looks nice and nasty!
> 
> Keep us posted on how this is going for you.
> 
> Jeff


 
Legend says that Silat was combined with dance movements so the native Indonesians could keep their art hidden from warring conquerors.  The uneven terrain requires the moves to be done in a deep stance, on one knee, or even on the ground entirely.  It is fascinating.


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## zDom (Oct 5, 2006)

I've usually heard the "Silat" paired with "Penjak" (sp?)

What is the difference between Silat and Penjak Silat? 

(not even sure if what I'm asking makes sense...) These are FMAs?


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## Carol (Oct 6, 2006)

zDom said:


> I've usually heard the "Silat" paired with "Penjak" (sp?)
> 
> What is the difference between Silat and Penjak Silat?
> 
> (not even sure if what I'm asking makes sense...) These are FMAs?


 
Pentjak Silat is often taught at Filipino schools, but it is an Indonesian art.

"Silat" means "fighting" or "self defense"

"Pentjak" (also spelled Pencak) means "the motions of"

Silat is a broad name for the art, which originated from Java.  Tjimande is the oldest and most widely practiced lineage of Javanese Silat.  Pentjak Silat Serak is newer and is reputed to be a bit more aggressive and brutal.

Different lineages of the same art


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## matt.m (Oct 6, 2006)

On Wed after TKD a fourth dan and I have been working knife defense and Kali flow drills for a few minutes.  It is a great asset to have extra of.  I know of someone that used to come to our class after it was over to work some of the Kali flow drills are amazing.


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
> Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...



OK, I _promise_ I'll be afraid, but in return you have to tell us something about these bunkai. Not gory detail for every move, but could you give a two or three move sequence from the kata along with the bunkai your instructor sketched to you for that sequence, to give some of the flavor of these bunkai (and maybe some detail about how they mesh with bunkai from the Shotokan kata you're thinking of)? Applications for the Shotokan can be quite...um, _unpleasant_, I know---sometimes I find myself reading something on this stuff or seeing  e.g. Abernethy demo bunkai for kata and it makes me wince---but I'll be glad to listen to descriptions of the even more horrific applications you've mentioned.


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Sensei showed us some more of the Bunkai for the kata, as well...
> Be afraid, be very, VERY afraid...



OK, I _promise_ I'll be afraid, but in return you have to tell us something about these bunkai. Not gory detail for every move, but could you give a two or three move sequence from the kata along with the bunkai your instructor sketched to you for that sequence, to give some of the flavor of these bunkai (and maybe some detail about how they mesh with bunkai from the Shotokan kata you're thinking of)? Applications for the Shotokan can be quite...um, _unpleasant_, I know---sometimes I find myself reading something on this stuff or seeing  e.g. Abernethy demo bunkai for kata and it makes me wince---but I'll be glad to listen to descriptions of the even more horrific applications you've mentioned.


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## JasonASmith (Oct 6, 2006)

Well, as for the bunkai to Tjimande, all that Sensei has given us leads up to one thing...
Death for your opponent, usually(almost all of the time) due to a neck snap...However, O'Sensei will NOT teach the complete bunkai to these kata, simply for the reason above...His senior students(the ones that he teaches Tjimande to) must "figure out" how the ending works...From what I understand, O' Sensei took a vow not to teach the complete system, it goes against his religion, I believe...Hopefully  you understand when I say that I don't know too much bunkai for Tjimande then...As for the Shotokan/Tjimande mix, let me get back to you on that(I'm still trying to wrap my head around it)


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> Well, as for the bunkai to Tjimande, all that Sensei has given us leads up to one thing...[/FONT]
> *Death for your opponent*, usually(almost all of the time) due to a neck snap...



Ah yes, the neck twist. Simon O'Neil has some bunkai for TKD hyungs which also have neck twists as the nasty application underlying what looks like an innocent lunge-punch/chamber move---what's `really' going on is a hair-grab-and-push (looks like a punch in the hyung)/hair (or face)-grab-and-pull (looks like a simple retraction to chamber)...yes, that'll about do it.:nuke: 




JasonASmith said:


> However, O'Sensei will NOT teach the complete bunkai to these kata, simply for the reason above...His senior students(the ones that he teaches Tjimande to) must "figure out" how the ending works...From what I understand, O' Sensei took a vow not to teach the complete system, it goes against his religion, I believe...Hopefully  you understand when I say that I don't know too much bunkai for Tjimande then...As for the Shotokan/Tjimande mix, let me get back to you on that(I'm still trying to wrap my head around it)



Cool, JAS, anything you have on that subject will be interesting. I'm very interested in `mixed' kata systems because while the Korean MAs' earliest sets of forms were of course taken straight from the Okinawan/Japanese karate systems learned by the original Kwan masters, they were mixed and reshuffled over a long period as the imported karate kata became `Koreanized'. So the phenomenon of kata mixing and reorganization is something that I'd like to get understand better. I think it's a great teaching technique your Sensei is using, to in effect set up the bunkai as a problem you have to solve. Thanks very much for the info! :asian:


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## twendkata71 (Oct 6, 2006)

* A really good mixed style is Benny Uriquidez (UKidokan) Shotokan and kenpo karate, mixed with BudoJujitsu.*
*With a mix like that you get the strong base of Shotokan and the quick attacks of kenpo.*


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> * A really good mixed style is Benny Uriquidez (UKidokan) Shotokan and kenpo karate, mixed with BudoJujitsu.*
> *With a mix like that you get the strong base of Shotokan and the quick attacks of kenpo.*



Yes, that makes sense, it's something I visualize with TKD taking the place of Shotokan in the mix---given their common base, it seems like a TKD/kenpo/Bodujujitsu would give you a similar `blended' approach.


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## twendkata71 (Oct 6, 2006)

*I have one for your training. If you really want to know the kata. Try performing each kata from the end to the begining backwards.  It is quite hard to do but you gain new insite into the kata.*


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## exile (Oct 6, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *I have one for your training. If you really want to know the kata. Try performing each kata from the end to the begining backwards.  It is quite hard to do but you gain new insite into the kata.*



Twendkata---_cool_ idea! Never would have occured to me... but yes, it would kind of like running a film backwards---you would see things from an angle you hadn't before, and it would in some sense still be the `same' kata, just examined from the end step by step back to the beginning. 

I'm going to be doing a forms workout tonight---will give it a try. 
Thanks much!


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## JasonASmith (Oct 6, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *I have one for your training. If you really want to know the kata. Try performing each kata from the end to the begining backwards. It is quite hard to do but you gain new insite into the kata.*


 
I have tried that with Heian Shodan, and you're right!  It really makes you think!
Actually, I think that a part of one of the tests(either for Green belt or Brown belt) in our Dojo is just that...


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## twendkata71 (Oct 6, 2006)

*This type of kata training will help your training especially when you get into the more advanced kata. *
*Another variation on this is to do the kata starting with the opposite side. Going to the right instead of the left. I learned this type of training from my kenpo experiences. They to both sides of the body.*
*This way you develop both sides of the body. Good luck in your training and keep on punching and kicking. Osu.*


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## JasonASmith (Oct 10, 2006)

Well, it's becoming a common occurence after every class now...
Sensei didn't even have to ask what I wanted to work on...he just looked at me, and said "Tjimande?"  Of course, my reply was, "Hell yes!" We worked some bunkai for some of the Heians and then launched into the Silat for about 15 minutes...I think that I am starting to get the basic "flow" of the movements in the kata...YeGods, what brutality!


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## exile (Oct 10, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> I think that I am starting to get the basic "flow" of the movements in the kata...YeGods, what brutality!



Just remember: no pain (for them), no gain (for you) :wink1:


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## twendkata71 (Oct 11, 2006)

*When you get into the advance aspects of karate or martial arts training it definetely gets more deadly and brutal. That is what made karate originally so effective. When it was adapted to sport many of those aspects were hindered,watered down,taken out. In that aspect modern karate and martial arts have lost its way.*
*It is up the ones of us that are dedicated to learning the real way the martial arts are supposed to practiced to work towards.*


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## JasonASmith (Oct 11, 2006)

twendkata71 said:


> *It is up the ones of us that are dedicated to learning the real way the martial arts are supposed to practiced to work towards.*


 
I'm up for it, anyone else?


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## twendkata71 (Oct 11, 2006)

*Ill be doing it until Im gone. Kind of a lifes work thing. *


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## exile (Oct 11, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> I'm up for it, anyone else?[/SIZE]



I think quite a few of MT people are, JAS---as Twendkata correctly notes in his previous post, `it's a life's work'. What is encouraging is the increasing number of books and websites devoted to this aspect of the kata-based striking arts. 

It's too bad that the wheel has to be reinvented so many times---I keep encountering this question coming up on different threads---`what's the use of kata, why do we need them?'---and the same discussions take place. I gather from this that the real nature of kata, unchanged since Matsumura's and Itosu's time, still isn't sufficiently well known, though there's a lot more out there on kaisai no geri than there used to be.

Just once I'd like to see some Karate or TKD outfit organize a big MA event which wasn't some tournament, but was an extended hands-on showcase of kata bunkai and methods of training for real combat based on kata-based combat methods (in his book _Bunkai Jutsu: the Practical Application of Karate Kata_, Abernethy spends a whole chapter describing the sparring methods he uses to train for hard-combat kata-based fighting). That's another aspect that needs looking into...


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## Boomer (Nov 1, 2006)

JasonASmith said:


> I was just blown away by how easily this form of Silat and Shotokan came together as one...I would have figured that there would have been stark differences(there probably are, I just haven't seen them as of yet) between the two arts.


 

Perhaps ya just need a little time to see the differences.  I was already shodan in shotokan when I was introduced to mande muda and the forms therein.  I think you're working on the "monjet" form...anyway, I think the biggest difference is in what I call the "compass".
In Japanese arts like karate and kobudo, we are taught all about the eight directions of attack.  You are positioned in the center of a giant compass with these 8 directions from which you may be attacked, and you train to defend those angles and retailiate. In shotokan especially, we attack very much on a linear plane until a more advanced level of understanding...like your "Mack truck" analogy from another post.
In tjimande we are taught that your opponent is the center of the compass, and you move around him.  There's even stepping patterns we are taught to use to gain advantage on angular attacking.  So the focus becomes more of an effort in agility, but with practice becomes natural.


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## JasonASmith (Nov 1, 2006)

Boomer said:


> Perhaps ya just need a little time to see the differences. I was already shodan in shotokan when I was introduced to mande muda and the forms therein. I think you're working on the "monjet" form...anyway, I think the biggest difference is in what I call the "compass".
> In Japanese arts like karate and kobudo, we are taught all about the eight directions of attack. You are positioned in the center of a giant compass with these 8 directions from which you may be attacked, and you train to defend those angles and retailiate. In shotokan especially, we attack very much on a linear plane until a more advanced level of understanding...like your "Mack truck" analogy from another post.
> In tjimande we are taught that your opponent is the center of the compass, and you move around him. There's even stepping patterns we are taught to use to gain advantage on angular attacking. So the focus becomes more of an effort in agility, but with practice becomes natural.


I absolutely need time to see the differences!
Sensei demonstrated something on me one time using Shotokan, and without pause switched to Tjimande...It worked REALLY well, and that was the impetus for me to start getting interested in the kata and some of the bunkai(and thus why I started this thread) Hopefully I haven't irritated you with my Tjimande cheerleading, I just enjoy the hell out of it;  almost(but not quite) as much as the Shotokan that the two of you are teaching me/us...


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