# What's with the Jumpin' Beans



## Nicholas82555 (Jul 6, 2012)

I use 2 box and I do understand movement..I do understand footwork but these YouTube clips on WC fighters are a little beyond me??????  When do they settle down to implement the techniques that they've drill on??? I see a lot a chain punching and who can beat who 2 to the punch first. All that bouncing around only serves to waste energy or is it a case of the jitters?????


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## Tames D (Jul 6, 2012)

I'm a little confused. Is there a link we should see?


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## mook jong man (Jul 7, 2012)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I use 2 box and I do understand movement..I do understand footwork but these YouTube clips on WC fighters are a little beyond me??????  When do they settle down to implement the techniques that they've drill on??? I see a lot a chain punching and who can beat who 2 to the punch first. All that bouncing around only serves to waste energy* or is it a case of the jitters?????*



No , I'd say it's just a case of you watching crappy videos.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 7, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> No , I'd say it's just a case of you watching crappy videos.


Or just not fully understanding the purpose of drills.
Im inclined towards thinking a bit of both.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 7, 2012)

This is what I'm talking about: 




I thought this one was pretty good being a novice:


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 7, 2012)

I got cha)))


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## mook jong man (Jul 7, 2012)

What you will find is that the world of Wing Chun / Wing Tsun is very large and diverse.
In order to sort the wheat from the chaff you have to know what you are looking at.

You could think of it as a large spectrum , at one end of the spectrum lineages such as mine will adhere strictly to five main principles.
At the other end of the spectrum some lineages will interpret and express those principles rather loosely , some other schools will fall somewhere in between.

It all maybe under the banner of Wing Chun / Wing Tsun , but the reality is that the various clans interpretation of Wing Chun can appear so different to each other that they may as well be totally different martial systems.


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## simplewc101 (Jul 8, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> What you will find is that the world of Wing Chun / Wing Tsun is very large and diverse.
> In order to sort the wheat from the chaff you have to know what you are looking at.
> 
> You could think of it as a large spectrum , at one end of the spectrum lineages such as mine will adhere strictly to five main principles.
> ...




This is possibly the best explanation I have heard yet as to why fighting with wc looks different depending on lineage/ sifu.


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## simplewc101 (Jul 8, 2012)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I thought this one was pretty good being a novice:



Me too, until it goes to the ground, where neither party excels. 
maybe one can say things that he could have done better, or stopped his opponent quicker with some move or technique, but what he does demonstrate well is the sensitivity, and the fighter spirit.

 at 0:30 he moves slightly to dodge a left hook, throws his own punches to the head as opponent backs up slightly.
at 0:31 he notices the opponent take a small step in as if opponent is going to go on the offensive, he times his own step forward with another combo of punches ending with a straight left.

at 0:32 opponent covers up and turns to the left to avoid the straight left. he (wc man) feels his opponent has turned and given him his side. the straight left punch falls to a rest on opponents shoulder. he throws a right punch to the body and follows opponent as he backs away.

at 0:33 he delivers solid mook jong kick to knee area as opponent retreats. opponent tries to brush off the hand that is on his shoulder (still there from after the straight left punch at 0:32), wc man feels his opening, takes opponents neck with left hand, while resetting his foot he kicked with, notices the overhand right being thrown by his opponent, and takes an angled step forward while maintaining centerline and dodging overhand right punch.

at 0:34 it looks like he tries to throw a right punch. it either misses wide right, or was effective at stopping opponents left punch.

at 0:35- 0:37   he gets bear hugged, realizes he is at disadvantage and backing up, so he redirects opponents forward energy and uses his hand (however unconventional? it may be) on the opponents knee to give himself the upper hand again.

All in all, I'd say he has a decent grasp on some of the things he can do with his wing chun knowledge.
That's actually one of the better wing chun videos I've seen. 

Does anyone else think that he did a decent job of trying to apply some WC concepts in a fight?   .. or am i off base?...


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## cwk (Jul 8, 2012)

I think the guy in the second video did ok but he suffered from what most of these people in wing chun vs ? clips do, too much chain punching and not enough stealing space to control the opponent. Staying at that punching range is inviting your opponent to hit you back fairly easily.
 Instead, I prefer to get in close and use anatomical control points to  limit my opponents options and disrupt balance, using short range "ging" and more palm, forearm and elbow strikes.


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## cwk (Jul 8, 2012)

I always find it strange that many practitioners of wing chun, a close range system, seem to be so uncomfortable at that range. It's "in the pocket" where our tools become the most effective, using the arm shapes and coiling force to simultaneously jam the opponents movements and clear lines for our attacks. In this range, if you stick to the principles of the system you will always be a beat faster than your opponent.


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## Cyriacus (Jul 8, 2012)

cwk said:


> I always find it strange that many practitioners of wing chun, a close range system, seem to be so uncomfortable at that range. It's "in the pocket" where our tools become the most effective, using the arm shapes and coiling force to simultaneously jam the opponents movements and clear lines for our attacks. In this range, if you stick to the principles of the system you will always be a beat faster than your opponent.


I suspect its more most people who are uncomfortable at that range - Training a System specialising in it will only help overrule that to a certain extent.

Quick Edit: Certain extent in people who are uncomfortable at such distances.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2012)

cwk said:


> I always find it strange that many practitioners of wing chun, a close range system, seem to be so uncomfortable at that range. It's "in the pocket" where our tools become the most effective, using the arm shapes and coiling force to simultaneously jam the opponents movements and clear lines for our attacks. In this range, if you stick to the principles of the system you will always be a beat faster than your opponent.



I agree and tend to think that it maybe caused by a lack of decent training in chi sau.

Or even if they do in engage in chi sau it is the type where both parties tend to stay rooted to the spot , which is fine for mastering the basic positions of tan fook and bong.

But it doesn't do much for learning to move your body mass forward in coordination with the aforementioned movements , being more mobile in chi sau will train you to transmit the force from your stance , through your arms and use it to attack your opponents balance.

You watch the top masters when they engage in chi sau with lesser skilled opponents , they don't even have to hit through , the opponent is kept continually off balance and the gaps in the defence start to open up as a result.


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## yak sao (Jul 8, 2012)

cwk said:


> I always find it strange that many practitioners of wing chun, a close range system, seem to be so uncomfortable at that range. It's "in the pocket" where our tools become the most effective, using the arm shapes and coiling force to simultaneously jam the opponents movements and clear lines for our attacks. In this range, if you stick to the principles of the system you will always be a beat faster than your opponent.



I see this a lot too. I'm always pushing my guys to move in and put their opponent back on his heels. Everyone wants to stay at boxing range and duke it out.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 8, 2012)

As a karate student, I have a new respect for WC after seeing the second video.  The first one just looked like traditional sparring with the inclusion of take-downs (which we don't do when sparring).  I could have at least rumbled with those first two guys; not saying I could have beat them, but I could get in there and do something.  That last video, I am puzzled as to how I'd deal with that WC guy.  Very interesting techniques.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 8, 2012)

yak sao said:


> I see this a lot too. I'm always pushing my guys to move in and put their opponent back on his heels. Everyone wants to stay at boxing range and duke it out.



Never been a problem for me. I'm too big and too slow to duke it out except with another big slow guy.  I like to get all up in ur grill and bring the hurt.  I love that feeling when I throw an uppercut to the gut and I feel the other guy's feet leave the ground slightly.  That's when I know it's going to be a good day.  My problem with that second video is that I love to jam kicks, but I have no idea how to jam to those low WC kicks.  What's the counter to that?


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## yak sao (Jul 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Never been a problem for me. I'm too big and too slow to duke it out except with another big slow guy. I like to get all up in ur grill and bring the hurt. I love that feeling when I throw an uppercut to the gut and I feel the other guy's feet leave the ground slightly. That's when I know it's going to be a good day. My problem with that second video is that I love to jam kicks, but I have no idea how to jam to those low WC kicks. What's the counter to that?



The best way is to simply (yea right) explode in and punch the guy in the head before he can kick.
Besides that, a general rule is we use our arms against arms, and legs against legs.
If at range, we use stop kicks, either to the shin, or even better, to the quad before the kick can gather steam.
If a bit closer, we use our legs similar to how you would see the arms used. As an example, say a roundhouse kick is coming in at leg height, we would use our shin/knee to intercept the kick at their inner quad, while we are continuing our hand attacks at the upper gates.


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## WC_lun (Jul 8, 2012)

What Yak Sao said is absolutely true, but it takes training to do this.  My advice for someone who does not train to fight in this manner is when he kicks bring your knee up, almost like chambering for a front kick.  Then come come forward as you bring the front leg down.  If you punch at this time, with your elbow in, your body weight will be behind it, making it much easier to go through his defenses.  The caveat to doing it this way is, if you leave yourself exposed as you are coming forward against a very good fighter, he's gonna put a struture up to impale your forward moving mass.  Very few guys are at this level though.


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## geezer (Jul 8, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> What Yak Sao said is absolutely true, but it takes training to do this.  My advice for someone who does not train to fight in this manner is when he kicks bring your knee up, almost like chambering for a front kick.  Then _come come forward as you bring the front leg down_...



I agree. This method of picking up the front leg as you step forward, keeping the vertical blade of the shin on your lower mid-line works pretty well as a basic defense against low kicks. If you get there first, you can pre-empt the oncoming kick with a counter-kick or foot-check to your opponent's leg. If you are a bit late, your shin acts like a wedge to deflect the oncoming kick aside, then you step down and forward to penetrate your opponent's stance and unbalance him. The trick is *not* to _stand still_ with your foot raised, or worse to _withdraw_ your chambered leg like you often see in many karate systems. If you pull back your leg, a decent WC/VT/WT man should press in and bowl you over!  _Constant forward intent_ is essential. 

Basically, you are just using the same forward wedging concepts for your stance, steps, and kicks as you would  for WC hands. Think of the lead leg having to work like a combined man-sau and wu-sau. This in mind, I call this basic high-stepping kick defense "wu-gurk" (guarding leg). Later, you can expand into bong-gurk and yap-gurk (tan-gurk), pak-gurk, and so on. Then try practicing chi-gurk. My old Chinese Sifu could basically make his feet work like WC/WT/VT hands. Awesome.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2012)

As Geezer said , anything coming round  I will jam it at the inner quad with my shin  , anything coming in direct and low I will low heel kick it .
So basically the low heel kick can be used offensively to bridge the gap or to jam anything coming in when the opponent chooses to initiate.
Quite similar to the way center line punches intercept any attack coming down the center.


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## mook jong man (Jul 8, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Never been a problem for me. I'm too big and too slow to duke it out except with another big slow guy.  I like to get all up in ur grill and bring the hurt.  I love that feeling when I throw an uppercut to the gut and I feel the other guy's feet leave the ground slightly.  That's when I know it's going to be a good day.  My problem with that second video is that I love to jam kicks,* but I have no idea how to jam to those low WC kicks.  What's the counter to that?[*/QUOTE]
> 
> There are quite a few jamming , hooking and sweeping movements in Wing Chun to deal with low heel kicks Bill.
> But the Gods honest truth is against someone who is fast and non telegraphic you are going to  wear most of them.
> ...


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## WingChunIan (Jul 9, 2012)

simplewc101 said:


> Me too, until it goes to the ground, where neither party excels.
> maybe one can say things that he could have done better, or stopped his opponent quicker with some move or technique, but what he does demonstrate well is the sensitivity, and the fighter spirit.
> 
> at 0:30 he moves slightly to dodge a left hook, throws his own punches to the head as opponent backs up slightly.
> ...



I thought he did ok but if it was supposed to be full contact he lacked one of the most vital elements of Wing Chun,  striking the jic seen using the elbows and stance to drive. His hands were fast but the guy should have been out after the first couple of shots landed. First clip was pretty poor and too much like low quality kick boxing or JKD for my liking but loved the wang gerk to the knee at 2:03 though pure class.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 11, 2012)

NOW!!! this is one of the responses I was looking for......so much chain punching to where someone would think that's all there is to wc)))))


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