# Respectfuly declining a rank advancement?



## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

I'm currently a purple belt and have been only for a short time. 

There was a belt test last night and I went so I could get out of the house, and because it's always fun to watch. I declined to test - I didn't return my test request sheet, didn't pay for a test, told the instructors I wasn't ready yet and wanted to wait until I was good enough and had more sparring experience, etc. I think they tested me anyhow :/ They called on me to do my poomsae 4 and 5 (not as well as I would have liked), strength and flexibility demonstrations, some kick combinations (again, not as good as I would have liked) and they even paired me with a black belt for sparring. I sucked, but it was still fun. They generally run tests every 6 weeks to accommodate people who have to be away, so they don't have to wait another few months (there are lots of kids at my dojang). For some reason, I keep getting tested far too frequently :/ I do go to class 6 days/week, but still the experience and muscle memory isn't there.

I'm pretty sure that they don't call on non-testing students to run through the test and I'm worried that my rank may advance again - WAY sooner than it should. I feel like I am light years away from deserving a blue belt. It seems that Grandmaster's strategy with me - and no one else that I can see - is to advance my rank before I have fully earned it, so I can work my tail off to demonstrate that I deserve it - and I do, but I feel like the rank should come _after_ demonstrating that it has been earned through hard work and experience, right? He has even double promoted me before.

I am hoping that it was just an exercise, or a _test to test later_, but in case it wasn't, how can I respectfully decline a rank advancement if I feel like I really don't deserve it?


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## JWLuiza (Aug 23, 2008)

You can't respectfully decline it. You don't have the perspective to determine if you really do or do not deserve the rank. Declining the rank implies you know more about your advancement in the art (of which your instructor is a master) than he does.


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

That's a very good point. While I would love to have a blue belt, I think I would feel pretty lame wearing one after having just been double promoted from orange not too long ago - with very little sparring experience. 

I am completely obsessed with my training, and I am in a mostly black stripe/black belt class.

Grandmaster is 8th dan Kukkiwon and very traditional, I know it's not just a black belt factory - but my friends (who admittedly know squat about Taekwondo) are starting to raise their eyebrows at how fast I'm advancing - thus bursting my bubble a little. I guess I still don't feel entirely comfortable with my purple belt ranking, let alone a potential blue belt. 

Meh, I think I'm just festering a little because the dojang is closed for hollidays for a week, so I can't just focus on my training instead of the rank/test situation


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## Windsinger (Aug 23, 2008)

Keeping in mind that this is coming from a lowly little yellow stripe  :

I think I agree with JWLuiza that, from an ettiquette point of view, it would be difficult to decline. Your instructors probably see something that you don't, and (as JWLuiza said) declining it may be viewed as "I know more than the instructors", even though I'm sure that's not the case. If they do advance you, I would take it as a compliment.


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## jarrod (Aug 23, 2008)

did you tell your grade school that you weren't ready for the 4th grade?

it's not up to you when you get promoted.


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## Kacey (Aug 23, 2008)

jarrod said:


> did you tell your grade school that you weren't ready for the 4th grade?
> 
> it's not up to you when you get promoted.



Speaking as both a student and an instructor - you test when your instructor thinks you are ready, whether you think you are or not.  _No one_ is ever as good as they think they should be - especially those who are truly committed to their art, as it sounds like you are.  If your Grandmaster is anywhere near as traditional as you say he is, you would not be promoted unless you were ready.

Something else to consider:  readiness for promotion varies from person to person.  If you are training 6 days a week, and comparing yourself to students who train twice a week, I would _expect_ that you could be ready sooner.  If you want to test less often - show up less often (although it sounds like that's not likely ).  

If you are truly concerned - talk to your instructor about your concerns.  No one on MT can really answer whether or not you're ready, as we haven't seen you perform.  Only your instructor can tell you if you're being fast-tracked, and if so, why.  In the meantime, enjoy the journey!


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

Thanks so much for all of your replies, it's really good to hear from others who have training experience. A 'friend' has even insinuated that they are doing it to somehow gain more money from me, which is quite contrary to the situation, because I didn't pay for this belt test, or the skipped green belt rank. I guess I'm just feeling cautious because of some sour grapes from others who have never seen me - or anyone else for that matter practice.


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## JWLuiza (Aug 23, 2008)

Just a quick note: It's good that you don't want to advance too fast. Sorry if my post came off harsh....

If you are training 6 x week, and are young and athletic, you may very well skyrocket to black belt.  That's ok. Let the 8th dan figure out where that plateau should be. If I were your instructor I'd want to balance time to season you as a martial artists while also providing you with the best challenge for your ability.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 23, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I'm currently a purple belt and have been only for a short time.
> 
> There was a belt test last night and I went so I could get out of the house, and because it's always fun to watch. I declined to test - I didn't return my test request sheet, didn't pay for a test, told the instructors I wasn't ready yet and wanted to wait until I was good enough and had more sparring experience, etc. I think they tested me anyhow :/ They called on me to do my poomsae 4 and 5 (not as well as I would have liked), strength and flexibility demonstrations, some kick combinations (again, not as good as I would have liked) and they even paired me with a black belt for sparring. I sucked, but it was still fun. They generally run tests every 6 weeks to accommodate people who have to be away, so they don't have to wait another few months (there are lots of kids at my dojang). For some reason, I keep getting tested far too frequently :/ I do go to class 6 days/week, but still the experience and muscle memory isn't there.
> 
> ...


 


JWLuiza said:


> You can't respectfully decline it. You don't have the perspective to determine if you really do or do not deserve the rank. Declining the rank implies you know more about your advancement in the art (of which your instructor is a master) than he does.


 
I think JW has it right on. Another thing to think about... it is my understanding that traditionally Japanese ranks were given just as you suggested. You were given a rank and then expected to work up to that new level. It is not that you were good enough to deserve to be a "x" belt, but rather now you are wearing "x" belt, you BETTER step up and work hard to deserve it. Maybe that is exactly what your older (I assume as he is an 8th Dan) Korean master (who was probably trained by Japanese, or trained by those who were) is trying to do.


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 23, 2008)

Wait wait wait!

Why do people train at a dojo? Is belt rank the full reason? The only reason? Does it even have to be one of the reasons? Is gaining rank the be-all-end-all for being in a dojo? 

faerie2 want's to take it slow. I'm not sure, but I presume he enjoys the class and likes being there. But to force him to have a test for the next rank when he does not feel he is ready, well that's stupid. This is not the army where it the policy is 'Up or Out'. In fact rank in dojo is not a huge indicator of how you have asorbed such things as respect, spirit, humility, perseverance, honor, and a whole host of tenants!

Maybe those who run dojos think everyone is dieing for the next belt. That the next belt must be achieved in the shortest time period possible. Heck, I started working out again about 4 years ago simply to get my skills back and drop some weight. I got dragged back into getting my 5th (yes there was some ego there, but I did not go back to get it.)

I think faerie2 should advance at his own pace, as long as it's slower than the GM's.

Deaf


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> Just a quick note: It's good that you don't want to advance too fast. Sorry if my post came off harsh....
> 
> If you are training 6 x week, and are young and athletic, you may very well skyrocket to black belt.  That's ok. Let the 8th dan figure out where that plateau should be. If I were your instructor I'd want to balance time to season you as a martial artists while also providing you with the best challenge for your ability.




LOL! Athletic, maybe. Young... not so much. I'm 33 and started 8 weeks after having my second baby. Granted, I'm the sort of person who walks/runs 10km every day rain, shine, snow, etc - pregnant or not - I even did 10km walks the day before giving birth both times. I weight train and have spent years doing nonsense like TaeBo (phear my mad Billy Blanks skillz :ultracool) so yeah, athletic, I suppose. I guess I loose sight of my conditioning because I feel like I have started Taekwondo so ... late. 


You didn't come across as harsh at all


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I think JW has it right on. Another thing to think about... it is my understanding that traditionally Japanese ranks were given just as you suggested. You were given a rank and then expected to work up to that new level. It is not that you were good enough to deserve to be a "x" belt, but rather now you are wearing "x" belt, you BETTER step up and work hard to deserve it. Maybe that is exactly what your older (I assume as he is an 8th Dan) Korean master (who was probably trained by Japanese, or trained by those who were) is trying to do.



That's really cool, I didn't know that! Grandmaster is 8th dan  Kukkiwon - I believe they moved to Canada in the mid 80's from Korea.


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Wait wait wait!
> 
> Why do people train at a dojo? Is belt rank the full reason? The only reason? Does it even have to be one of the reasons? Is gaining rank the be-all-end-all for being in a dojo?
> 
> ...



(psst, I'm a chick  ) 
YES! I think that's part of the reason I'm a bit upset. There are a lot of kids there and they are motivated by rank rather than training. I don't want to be perceived that way, but it seems that I'm moving up in rank twice as fast as anyone else in the whole school. Training is my goal, not colour of belt - although rank advancement is compelling - it's certainly not what I'm in it for.


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## Mimir (Aug 23, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I guess I loose sight of my conditioning because I feel like I have started Taekwondo so ... late.


 
Hey you didn't start late to my perspective.  I started 1 month before turning 38.

As far as your rank advancement - Trust your instructors.  They know what you are capable of doing and not doing.


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## faerie2 (Aug 23, 2008)

Mimir said:


> Hey you didn't start late to my perspective.  I started 1 month before turning 38.
> 
> As far as your rank advancement - Trust your instructors.  They know what you are capable of doing and not doing.



It's good to hear from someone who has also started later. I had always felt like I missed the Martial Arts boat because I didn't get into it as a kid. After two kids and still longing to get into it (and an awesome dojang 5 minutes from my house) I figured that I wasn't getting any younger and I may as well give it a go - and I'm obsessed! 

...much to my husbands dismay :/ 

Actually, he's incredibly supportive, I'm just always yabbering on about tkd class


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## IcemanSK (Aug 23, 2008)

I'll add to the chorus of "test at your instructor's pace" here. If he didn't charge you for it, he's not after money from you (it appears). I did notice a question in your post as to whether or not you were sure you were actually being tested, or just going through the test. Ya might wanna find out for sure on this one. I'm not sure why he would have you test & not have you pay for it. But unless he expressly said, "you're testing today," you can't be sure it actually was a test for rank. I don't mean to put a damper on your day, but ya wanna make sure.

You said you were a purple belt: what gup rank (what's the belt order)is that in your school? I'm curious as to what you mean by fast advancement. 

There are a lot of folks on the Taekwondo board who have a lot of experience. In JW, Kacey & Lauren there is well over 40 years experience alone. This is a good place to ask questions that you may not be comfortable or sure how to put with your instructor.


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## Mimir (Aug 23, 2008)

Is there any interest from your kids to start class with you?  My wife and one of our daughters go.


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I am hoping that it was just an exercise, or a _test to test later_, but in case it wasn't, how can I respectfully decline a rank advancement if I feel like I really don't deserve it?


Personally, and this is just my opinion, I believe you should trust your instincts.  This is particularly true if there is a testing fee involved, or if you are expected to perform an increasing amount of gratis work around the school, such as teaching classes for free at a certain rank.  If pretty much every student tests on a regular schedule, like every quarter (suspiciously around the time that the school's taxes are due, for example), and practically (or literally) everyone who tests is promoted, I think you have a point.  

Regardless of what kind of reasons you're given, if you're doing something that you feel strongly is wrong, you should be firm.  If you're being compelled against your better judgement to do something you aren't comfortable with, you should do what you think is right.  Any activity for which you are paying should not make you feel uneasy.  That's the very definition of dysfunction. 

Personally, I would (and have) left a school for reasons like this.  While some will tell you it's a lack of respect for your instructor, I believe that it's quite the reverse, a lack of respect for YOU.  I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that this is universal.  I'm speaking largely based upon my own personal experience.  This sort of situation is one of several reasons that ultimately led to my leaving my old school and looking for a system that I believe has more integrity.


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## terryl965 (Aug 24, 2008)

It is your job as a student to accept your instructor knowledge that they actually know what they are doing. Then you accept the tesy and go on with your training. Now if you do not believe your instructor is good enough to judge who should test find someone else. Have a wonderful day.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> ... But unless he expressly said, "you're testing today," you can't be sure it actually was a test for rank. I don't mean to put a damper on your day, but ya wanna make sure.



I'm not sure if it was a test or just having me run through a test (and not actually testing me). That's why I posted here because I wanted to know (initially) how to respectfully decline it if he came after me with a blue belt in September. My dojang is closed for holidays for a week, so I won't get the chance to ask until September. 



IcemanSK said:


> You said you were a purple belt: what gup rank (what's the belt order)is that in your school? I'm curious as to what you mean by fast advancement.



At our school, purple belt would be 5th gup.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

Mimir said:


> Is there any interest from your kids to start class with you?  My wife and one of our daughters go.




Oh, absolutely! We put our 3 year old daughter in the 'tots' program, and she LOVE it!! Our son... well Grandmaster is pleased with his kiap, but he's only 5 months old


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> Personally, and this is just my opinion, I believe you should trust your instincts.  This is particularly true if there is a testing fee involved, or if you are expected to perform an increasing amount of gratis work around the school, such as teaching classes for free at a certain rank.  If pretty much every student tests on a regular schedule, like every quarter (suspiciously around the time that the school's taxes are due, for example), and practically (or literally) everyone who tests is promoted, I think you have a point.
> 
> Regardless of what kind of reasons you're given, if you're doing something that you feel strongly is wrong, you should be firm.  If you're being compelled against your better judgement to do something you aren't comfortable with, you should do what you think is right.  Any activity for which you are paying should not make you feel uneasy.  That's the very definition of dysfunction.
> 
> Personally, I would (and have) left a school for reasons like this.  While some will tell you it's a lack of respect for your instructor, I believe that it's quite the reverse, a lack of respect for YOU.  I want to be clear that I'm not suggesting that this is universal.  I'm speaking largely based upon my own personal experience.  This sort of situation is one of several reasons that ultimately led to my leaving my old school and looking for a system that I believe has more integrity.



Well this is the thing, when they want you to test, they give you a test request form, which you return with the amount of $ indicated (higher amount for higher rank). I didn't return the form, and didn't pay the fee. THey didn't charge me for the double promotion last time either. They have made very little money from me considering how far I have advanced. They certainly don't ask me to teach - they know I'm somewhat overextended as it is between two kids and a home business - never mind that I am the lowest rank in the class I am in. 

I don't believe I was doing anything _wrong,_ just not as good as I believe I should be for 4th gup. 

...again, I'm not sure that it was even a real test, I just wanted to know in advance how to decline it if  blue belt was offered.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> It is your job as a student to accept your instructor knowledge that they actually know what they are doing. Then you accept the tesy and go on with your training. Now if you do not believe your instructor is good enough to judge who should test find someone else. Have a wonderful day.



Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic  This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme",  but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic  This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme",  but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.



I know Master Stoker (Terry) can respond to this himself, but I am here now so I thought I would step in.  To go along with Iceman's point, Master Stoker has 40 years of experience just by himself and he was trying to give you a constructive comment.... and he is often pretty blunt with his posts which I think is a good thing!
He is just trying to tell you that you have accepted this person as your instructor so stop sweating the small stuff (and in the long run even this will be "small stuff" to you on your martial arts journey).  You walked into this dojang and thought "this instructor is really good, I really like how he teaches, I think he can teach me what I want to know, I am going to become his student".  At that point you stop questioning his methods on teaching.  Now, if you decide you don't like how he teaches, you don't think he is a good instructor, or you don't think he can teach you what you want to learn, then leave and find another school.  That is your right as the consumer. But you can't claim someone is your teacher and then question the how of his teaching. Now, we all come here and discuss things that our instructors do or our students do just to get other's opinions or viewpoints.  But when it comes down to it, you either go with what your instructor says you should do or you find a new instructor. You don't get to tell him how you want things to go. That's my opinion at least, take it if you want.
Have a wonderful day.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 24, 2008)

Terry couldnt be ride if he wanted to

When it comes to rude, that's MY job.

LOL

anyway, there is no way to be respectful and turn down a promotion your instructor feels you deserve.

you turn it down, you are saying "you dont know what you are talking about."

no way to do that respectfully.




faerie2 said:


> Er, wow. Thanks for making my situation so simplistic  This is a rather disrespectful way of responding to someone asking for advice on how to be respectful. I realize that you are "ultimate post whore extreme",  but that doesn't mean that being rude/non constructively blunt is helpful.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

Feedback and opinions are exactly what I was hoping to get from posting this question here. I like that this community is made up of people who love Taekwondo from all over - not just one dojang, city, province/state, country. 

Clearly, I am new to Taekwondo and want to get the most out of my training. Reading the comments that you all have given has helped me to gain a different perspective on the whole situation. I suppose I should have expected more people being rude in the guise of being "blunt" - as this forum is predominantly male and competitive. Blunt and concise are appreciated. Condescending comments - whatever your Martial Arts experience, age, rank, post count etc. may be is unproductive. I practice Taekwondo to learn, and I came here to learn too.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 24, 2008)

this might sound blunt and condescending, and if so I am sorry.

But when you come here looking for opinions from "people who love Taekwondo from all over" (which is exactly what we are!) you are going to get different types and responses, different opinions, and different ways that people present their opinions. Take the opinions you like,  ignore the ones you don't.

So just relax a little and enjoy the ride :ultracool: I don't know if this forum is predominately male, but it is definitely not competitive. This forum could be a really good tool for you choose to stick around.  You get enough people talking about one subject and there are going to be opinions you don't like.  But the good by far outweighs any negative.  Everyone here is only posting on this thread because you asked and because they want to help.  I hope you see that.
Happy posting and good luck with your training.


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## Svart (Aug 24, 2008)

This is a community faerie. Like every other community in the world, there are nice people, rude people and blunt people.
You'll figure who's what ;D


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> this might sound blunt and condescending, and if so I am sorry.
> 
> But when you come here looking for opinions from "people who love Taekwondo from all over" (which is exactly what we are!) you are going to get different types and responses, different opinions, and different ways that people present their opinions. Take the opinions you like,  ignore the ones you don't.
> 
> ...



Thanks! Don't get me wrong, I appreciate all comments - rude, polite, condescending or respectful. They all help me to see things from a different angle.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 24, 2008)

You also mentioned that others outside of TKD were commenting on your quick rise thru the ranks. I really don't mean to be glib, but perhaps you shouldn't bring it up to them much. It's one of the unfortunate things of martial arts, people outside of them think that rank is everything (Ok, some inside MA think so, too). Talk about class, what you're learning, how much fun it is, how ya got booted in the head (or how ya booted someone in the head), tests etc., but rank doesn't need to come up.

Folks outside of MA say things like "you're STILL X rank?!" as easily as they say, "weren't you just X rank?!" Few of them know what it takes to get there. If you were doing a spin class or boxing (something without rank belts) & doing well, friends wouldn't have that comparison of the BB they know or their 9 year old nephew who is a brown belt.

Just a thought.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> You also mentioned that others outside of TKD were commenting on your quick rise thru the ranks. I really don't mean to be glib, but perhaps you shouldn't bring it up to them much. It's one of the unfortunate things of martial arts, people outside of them think that rank is everything (Ok, some inside MA think so, too). Talk about class, what you're learning, how much fun it is, how ya got booted in the head (or how ya booted someone in the head), tests etc., but rank doesn't need to come up.
> 
> Folks outside of MA say things like "you're STILL X rank?!" as easily as they say, "weren't you just X rank?!" Few of them know what it takes to get there. If you were doing a spin class or boxing (something without rank belts) & doing well, friends wouldn't have that comparison of the BB they know or their 9 year old nephew who is a brown belt.
> 
> Just a thought.




That's a really good point. Some friends will ask about it because they know it's a huge interest of mine, but I can easily steer the conversation away from belt tests/rank, etc to the training. I'm sure they would much rather hear about how I fell on my butt after attempting a high double kick than being advanced another rank


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## JWLuiza (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> LOL! Athletic, maybe. Young... not so much. I'm 33 and started 8 weeks after having my second baby. Granted, I'm the sort of person who walks/runs 10km every day rain, shine, snow, etc - pregnant or not - I even did 10km walks the day before giving birth both times. I weight train and have spent years doing nonsense like TaeBo (phear my mad Billy Blanks skillz :ultracool) so yeah, athletic, I suppose. I guess I loose sight of my conditioning because I feel like I have started Taekwondo so ... late.
> 
> 
> You didn't come across as harsh at all



I just turned 30 myself. Of course, I haven't had two children. But I am capable of being athletic. Maybe in less shape then you since I don't run/walk everyday.

You are probably exciting to have as a student. Able to do most things and mature enough to have a deeper understanding than the teenagers. In the grand scheme of things underbelt rank and how long you spend there is kind of meaningless. I know many of the people on this board are underbelts and it seems SOOOO important how long you are X color belt for. But you will be a black belt for a much greater length of time than as a color belt, that the time frame become irrelevant. I've been a black belt for twice as long as I was a color belt. Right now you are learning how to be a student. Chodan, Shodan, First degree. Lowest of the degrees. The first full step in your learning.


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## Svart (Aug 24, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> I just turned 30 myself. Of course, I haven't had two children. But I am capable of being athletic. Maybe in less shape then you since I don't run/walk everyday.
> 
> You are probably exciting to have as a student. Able to do most things and mature enough to have a deeper understanding than the teenagers. In the grand scheme of things underbelt rank and how long you spend there is kind of meaningless. I know many of the people on this board are underbelts and it seems SOOOO important how long you are X color belt for. But you will be a black belt for a much greater length of time than as a color belt, that the time frame become irrelevant. I've been a black belt for twice as long as I was a color belt. Right now you are learning how to be a student. Chodan, Shodan, First degree. Lowest of the degrees. The first full step in your learning.



Exactly. As I see spoken in so many places, coloured belts are your ABC, black belt is learning to read and write.


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## Steve (Aug 24, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> You walked into this dojang and thought "this instructor is really good, I really like how he teaches, I think he can teach me what I want to know, I am going to become his student".  At that point you stop questioning his methods on teaching.


I agree with 90% of Lauren's advice.  But this is a little alarming.  You should never, in my opinion, stop questioning authority.  Respect it, sure.  But never subjugate your own good sense, your own intuition or instincts to someone only because they are in a position of authority.  That's how cults start. That's how Abu Graib's occur.  

Always approach every situation from a position of healthy skepticism.  Now, I'm not saying that you should be paranoid.  I'm saying that, in this situation, I would look for ulterior motives that might be... less altruistic.  It sounds like you're okay and you're just trying to be challenged by your instructor.  

Does anyone ever fail a testing?  And does everyone test every cycle, regardless of skill?  





> Now, if you decide you don't like how he teaches, you don't think he is a good instructor, or you don't think he can teach you what you want to learn, then leave and find another school.  That is your right as the consumer. But you can't claim someone is your teacher and then question the how of his teaching. Now, we all come here and discuss things that our instructors do or our students do just to get other's opinions or viewpoints.  But when it comes down to it, you either go with what your instructor says you should do or you find a new instructor. You don't get to tell him how you want things to go. That's my opinion at least, take it if you want.
> Have a wonderful day.


I agree with this sentiment, but it might not even be this simple.  I liked a lot of things about my old school.  I liked the instruction.  I liked the people.  I liked a lot of things.  It was difficult to make the decision to leave.   

I guess I'd recommend thinking of it like this.  The question is, are the idiosyncrasies of your school things you can accept?  If so, let them go and just go with the flow.  If not, better to leave and find a more compatible school (or even switching styles).  I have been much happier in the last 2 or so years since moving to my current school.


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## Kacey (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> That's a really good point. Some friends will ask about it because they know it's a huge interest of mine, but I can easily steer the conversation away from belt tests/rank, etc to the training. I'm sure they would much rather hear about how I fell on my butt after attempting a high double kick than being advanced another rank



Faerie2, from one woman to another - there are people who are _always_ going to be shocked by your advancement, not because of the speed, but because of our gender.  I started TKD in 1987 - and every year someone else finds out about my involvement, asks what rank I am (I'm a IV Dan - but most people don't discriminate between ranks of BB unless they're in a martial art) and I get the same response every time:  "Really?  You don't _look_ like a black belt!"  I've never figured out just what I'm supposed to look like - but the descriptions I get either come out to a short Asian, or someone tall with a swimmer's physique - and either way, the expectation is that BBs are _male_.

As I said before - if you trust your instructor, then trust that he has a reason (or reasons) for moving you through the ranks faster than most.  Remember that you are training 2-3 times more than most people, and that you are in better shape than most people - those two factors are both relevant in the speed with which you advance; many instructors look at total hours in training as much as they do the time since the last testing; someone who trains 6 times a week for 90 minutes will sometimes advance faster than someone who trains 2 times a week for 90 minutes, and sometimes not - it depends on _how _you're training as much as _how often_. 

Remember, too, that _you_ may not feel you're good enough - but that doesn't mean you haven't met the standard, just that there's still room for improvement.... and there's _always_ room for improvement, no matter how long you've been training.

Either you trust your instructor's judgment - in which case you should trust the speed with which he's advancing you - or you don't, in which case you really need to sit down and consider _why_ you don't trust it, and then discuss it with him.  If you feel that you _can't_ discuss it with him - that should tell you something as well.

Good luck, and keep us up on how it's going.


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## faerie2 (Aug 24, 2008)

Svart said:


> Exactly. As I see spoken in so many places, coloured belts are your ABC, black belt is learning to read and write.



AHA! Thank you for saying this, I thought this was the case, but so many people make such a massively huge deal about how long one spends as which colour belt (especially if you exceed where they dropped out of their training). I hope to continue for as long as I can, and I'm assuming that most of that time will be spent as a back belt. 



> Does anyone ever fail a testing?  And does everyone test every cycle, regardless of skill?



I have seen students not advance after a testing, the most recent was a kid testing for his black belt (poom). Not everyone is asked to test every time. There are a few people who do attend 90% of classes, like myself who are asked to test each time but it's certainly the exception.

Another question for those who are of the mind to never question your instructor: 
Would a student then be obliged to accept every belt test request the instructor gives?


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## Kacey (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Another question for those who are of the mind to never question your instructor:
> Would a student then be obliged to accept every belt test request the instructor gives?



Have I questioned my instructor's opinion of my readiness?  Yes and no... there have been times when I've had to work my butt off to be ready when I was told I was testing - but those who feel truly ready to test generally aren't, for one reason or another; those who feel somewhat nervous about testing are usually the ones who do the best.  This is, of course, a generality - but if my students ask me if they are testing, the answer is no.  Testing is at the discretion of the _instructor_ - not the student.  I don't "request" that my students test - when a testing approaches, I tell those students who are ready to test that they are testing.  Likewise, I test when my instructor tells me to do so.  It's a different mindset than is common in the US - it's much more Asian in flavor.  In the US it is common to question - in many Asian countries the cultural norm is to do as you are told when you are told, and ask questions later (if at all).


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## Laurentkd (Aug 24, 2008)

stevebjj said:


> I agree with 90% of Lauren's advice. But this is a little alarming. You should never, in my opinion, stop questioning authority. Respect it, sure. But never subjugate your own good sense, your own intuition or instincts to someone only because they are in a position of authority. That's how cults start. That's how Abu Graib's occur.
> 
> Always approach every situation from a position of healthy skepticism. Now, I'm not saying that you should be paranoid. I'm saying that, in this situation, I would look for ulterior motives that might be... less altruistic. It sounds like you're okay and you're just trying to be challenged by your instructor.


 
Thanks Steve.
I knew someone would bring up the "tail side" of my coin.  I saw it as I was writing it but thought rather than make my post even looooonger (I feel I always have long posts) I would let someone else discuss the moderation that is needed (and is needed in all things in my opinion)


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## Laurentkd (Aug 24, 2008)

I would say that you are right where everyone else has been... you don't feel you are "good enough" for your rank.  I bet if you asked anyone here 99% would say the same thing.  I know that when I had the feeling that it was soon going to be time to test for my 3rd dan and then again my 4th dan I basically sat and told my instructor all the reasons why I didn't think I was good enough.  Then he told me I was testing anyway. At that point there was no option to "talk him out of it".  He said it, so I did it(as he had already had my 100% trust).
I guess what I am saying is, don't feel bad or weird if you don't feel you are good enough for your rank. That is actually really normal. But, if you trust your instructor's judgment, then know that he must think you are good enough and it is really his opinion that matters as he has the expertise in the field.  And then just train your butt off so that you DO feel you deserve the rank you are at (and I bet right about then it will be time to test again!)


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## Deaf Smith (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> (psst, I'm a chick  )


 
faerie2,

Ops... but chick or no, I think spinding time training is more important that what belt one wears. One of the things I like about JKD is no belt rank! On the other hand there is my ego...

How about this. Take the test but don't spend a bunch of time training for the test. Just do what you feel you need to train at and the test can just take care of itself.

Deaf


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## Mimir (Aug 24, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Oh, absolutely! We put our 3 year old daughter in the 'tots' program, and she LOVE it!! Our son... well Grandmaster is pleased with his kiap, but he's only 5 months old


 
:rofl: 

I remember my wife saying that when she was pregnant with our youngest and would be watching class, that she (the baby) would kick like crazy the whole class. so I can appreciate the kiap!

I also wanted to add that we all have things that we need to improve in our art.  It is actually a good sign that you are aware that you need to work on things instead of letting your ego get in the way of your training.  One of the things I have always heard from my instructors is that when you reach blackbelt, that is when the real training begins.


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## Cirdan (Aug 25, 2008)

Normally I`d say trust your instructor, dedicated students like you will advance faster than the average guy who trains 2-3 hrs a week.
However I since the club got those impressive 6 year old black belt miracle kids I`d  say it is quite safe to assume belts mean little there anyway.


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## YoungMan (Aug 25, 2008)

If I recommend you to test, this means that, after having taken into consideration your physical skills, background, attitude, and health issues, I have decided you will pass. If I didn't think you would pass or were not ready, I would not recommend you. If you decline, and you may, this means your judgement is better than mine. 
The end result is that I may not recommend you again for a while (read: years). Bottom line: you should test when I give you the chance because  you don't know when you'll get another one.
I've talked to high ranking instructors who tested even after surgery because they didn't know when they would get another opportunity.


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## Manny (Aug 25, 2008)

You are not alone. Afther almost 18 years of inactivity I returned to TKD, I got my firsth degree black belt at 20, now I'm 40. When I retook TKD classes I pointed out to my samboknim I wanted o train cause the work out and to gain some healt and lose some bacon. Well afther barely a year of training my sambunim wanted me to do my second degree black belt test and I refuse it, it was the same as you felt about yourself, I had no stamina, my kicks are not so good, in sparring I really are not good, my timing is off my distance too, and I can't endure a three round fight.

my sambuking tried to conviced me saying I was prepared but I wasn't, and the most importat I felt I did not deserve the second degree and in my mind and heart knew I was not prepared period. So, I declined to go for the national examination last july and even I felt like diying cause I wanted the promotion I really felt I don't deserved it.

Something I see in every TKD dojan thes days is the kids and youngesters are been promoted to the next levels too soon, a TKD or any other martial arts practicioners must to grow with his/hers degree in every ways, don't wana say the sambunim is getting more money doing testings every two or three months, but think the promotion tests must not be so soon, and the kids must to sweat and deserve the next belt 

Yestarday I attended an examn where my daughter did her yellow belt test and almost all the kids had  faults in pooomse and breakin and some will not spar as they should.

As you I rather prefer be a 1 dan black belt for many years till I get what it takes to go for the next level than be a crapy 4th dan black belt.

You are right to decline a ranking test if not feel ready for it.

Manny


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## granfire (Aug 25, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> If I recommend you to test, this means that, after having taken into consideration your physical skills, background, attitude, and health issues, I have decided you will pass. If I didn't think you would pass or were not ready, I would not recommend you. If you decline, and you may, this means your judgement is better than mine.
> The end result is that I may not recommend you again for a while (read: years). Bottom line: you should test when I give you the chance because  you don't know when you'll get another one.
> I've talked to high ranking instructors who tested even after surgery because they didn't know when they would get another opportunity.




That is kinda dumb.

There are many reasons not to test, some times least of it is skill. For all us non professionals, we do have a life that sometimes requires us to be elsewhere then in the Dojang.

Especially if tests are as frequent as every 6 month, no reason to not sit one out. Naturally, Higher ranks have it a little harder. At least where I come from, the frequency decreases, eventually rapidly, so sitting out once can mean a year or so longer...but that's just that. If the journey is the destination.. what does it matter.


However, should the instructor put a belt in your hand w/o you paying for the testing fee, I think that that should mean he thinks you have earned it.


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## YoungMan (Aug 25, 2008)

Not dumb at all. Trust your instructor. If I recommend you, and you fail or do poorly, it lowers my credibility among my peers. So it is in both of our best interests for me to recommend you only when I think you're ready.
As for Taekwondo is a journey, I agree completely. However, if you decide to wait 20 years for your next Dan test, you open the door to stagnation. Getting to test for higher Dan is a great honor and certainly as much a motivation as anything else. You should always test when given the chance.


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## jim777 (Aug 25, 2008)

You cannot turn down the promotion if offered; you MUST accept it, and you must afterward do what you feel you need to do to feel worthy of it. There 

I would also hazard a guess that your 8th Dan Master did in fact promote you, knows you will feel very uncomfortable about it, and I suspect it probably pleases him no end :lol: I think you may be in a very special circumstance, and should consider giving up a bit of what you want for you, and give in a bit to what he wants for you. If he thinks you have the chance of getting to a high rank and becoming an outstanding martial artist, I doubt he will leave you feeling all comfortable and happy with yourself for more than a week at a time here and there


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## faerie2 (Aug 25, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> Normally I`d say trust your instructor, dedicated students like you will advance faster than the average guy who trains 2-3 hrs a week.
> However I since the club got those impressive 6 year old black belt miracle kids I`d  say it is quite safe to assume belts mean little there anyway.



Nice. We have one 6 year old bb (poom) who has attended almost every class available for 3 years. I don't think 5 days/week earning a junior bb is a "miracle". Maybe we have different 6 year olds here than where you are.


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## faerie2 (Aug 25, 2008)

jim777 said:


> You cannot turn down the promotion if offered; you MUST accept it, and you must afterward do what you feel you need to do to feel worthy of it. There
> 
> I would also hazard a guess that your 8th Dan Master did in fact promote you, knows you will feel very uncomfortable about it, and I suspect it probably pleases him no end :lol: I think you may be in a very special circumstance, and should consider giving up a bit of what you want for you, and give in a bit to what he wants for you. If he thinks you have the chance of getting to a high rank and becoming an outstanding martial artist, I doubt he will leave you feeling all comfortable and happy with yourself for more than a week at a time here and there



Interesting. I think everyone enjoyed the look on my face when they called my name during the test. :jaw-dropping::eye-popping: I feel terribly now that I didn't 'accept', or return the _test request form. _As I said, I'm still new to this and I didn't want them to feel like I was in this just for rank promotion. I fear that I may have offended them in the process of thinking that I would just wait until next time. Ugh. Now the school is closed for a week so I can't even chat with them about it.


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## faerie2 (Aug 25, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> Not dumb at all. Trust your instructor. If I recommend you, and you fail or do poorly, it lowers my credibility among my peers. So it is in both of our best interests for me to recommend you only when I think you're ready.
> As for Taekwondo is a journey, I agree completely. However, if you decide to wait 20 years for your next Dan test, you open the door to stagnation. Getting to test for higher Dan is a great honor and certainly as much a motivation as anything else. You should always test when given the chance.



Oh my - it's certainly nothing as great as a Dan promotion, it's just a colour belt promotion  Either way, I see your point.


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## faerie2 (Aug 25, 2008)

granfire said:


> ...
> However, should the instructor put a belt in your hand w/o you paying for the testing fee, I think that that should mean he thinks you have earned it.




That's what I'm sitting here festering about - I  didn't return the test form or pay the fee. I showed up on the test day practicing my patterns and kicks - so maybe he thought that I just *forgot* to hand it in the previous week?! I told them that I wasn't ready to test - maybe he just thought I was nervous instead of declining it.  I don't know - I feel like a big dork either way. If he comes after me next week with a new belt, should I offer to pay the fee? Ugh, why did I have to make this so complicated. He's probably having a lovely vacation enjoying that I'm very likely  agonizing over this for a whole week  He has a crazy sense of humor like that.


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## jim777 (Aug 25, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Ugh, why did I have to make this so complicated. He's probably having a lovely vacation enjoying that I'm very likely agonizing over this for a whole week  He has a crazy sense of humor like that.


 
He might be. :lol: The lifers are all a bit nutty (no offense Terry!  ) No sense in driving yourself crazy though. Like I said, I think you've found yourself a special place. I would, if it were me, keep the filled out test form and the money in your gear bag, so you can pull it out with an "I'm sorry I forgot" should you be promoted. It would be a polite and respectful gesture to your Master and would make you feel better as well.

You know of course that you have to right back and tell everyone if you passed, right?


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2008)

jim777 said:


> He might be. :lol: The lifers are all a bit nutty (no offense Terry!  ) No sense in driving yourself crazy though. Like I said, I think you've found yourself a special place. I would, if it were me, keep the filled out test form and the money in your gear bag, so you can pull it out with an "I'm sorry I forgot" should you be promoted. It would be a polite and respectful gesture to your Master and would make you feel better as well.
> 
> You know of course that you have to right back and tell everyone if you passed, right?


 
I am not offended I am a lifer and proud of it. Yes we tend to get a little crazy once in a while.:erg:


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## Laurentkd (Aug 25, 2008)

I would say if a belt was handed to you just say something like "I am sorry sir! I didn't realize I was testing! I'll get the testing fee to you right now."
If he planned to test you then it is all good
If he only tested you because you showed up and he thought you wanted to test, I think it is better to just go with it.... he can always hold you a little longer at this current rank. And I believe it is better to do this than to try to explain yourself away in a way that makes him feel like he made a mistake.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2008)

First off, I'm not a TKD person, so I have very little familiarity with how things run in a dojang.  But one point has not been raised yet in the thread (or at least I've missed it), and I'd like to ask a question.

You mentioned skipping one level, and testing quickly for another, and my question is: is there a formal curriculum for each belt level, or is it more loose and informal where everyone is kind of learning and working on the same things in no particular order? 

If there is a formal curriculum for each level, did you learn it when you made the double promotion, and again did you learn it when you tested quickly for the next one?  I would think that would at least be mandatory and be a factor in determining how quickly one might progress in rank.

Getting back to your question, I think you can decline a promotion.  A friend of mine used to train in a kenpo school where students would test, and rank would be offered by the teacher if he felt the test was good.  But if the student was not happy with it, he/she could decline it and retest later.  Of course what goes on in one school has no bearing on what goes on in another.  But it's an example anyway.

If your teacher hands you a belt, I think you have every right to decline it, but I would suggest you try to discuss it with him privately, and even remind him that you did not pay the fee nor turn in the sheet, and that was a deliberate decision on your part, not an oversight.  You did not intend to test on that day.

maybe the lesson learned here is: don't show up at the school on test day, if you don't intend to test.  Stay home and practice there on that day.


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## terryl965 (Aug 25, 2008)

FC there is a curriculum inside the Art or sport of TKD but to few instructor follow them today. Most just do it on the fly. I know what is going though your head and you are right how can one really understand the Art then. Maybe that is why TKD is getting such abad rap in the eyes of the Martial Art world.


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## faerie2 (Aug 25, 2008)

Laurentkd said:


> I would say if a belt was handed to you just say something like "I am sorry sir! I didn't realize I was testing! I'll get the testing fee to you right now."
> If he planned to test you then it is all good
> If he only tested you because you showed up and he thought you wanted to test, I think it is better to just go with it.... he can always hold you a little longer at this current rank. And I believe it is better to do this than to try to explain yourself away in a way that makes him feel like he made a mistake.



That's an excellent suggestion, his English isn't that great and I know I would just end up confusing him in my fluster. Did I mention I feel like a big dork about the whole thing? 
I really hope that if he and I were both aware that I wasn't testing that I didn't offend him by declining the test.  I have to wait 8 flippin' days before I find out what the heck happened Friday!


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## granfire (Aug 25, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> That's an excellent suggestion, his English isn't that great and I know I would just end up confusing him in my fluster. Did I mention I feel like a big dork about the whole thing?
> I really hope that if he and I were both aware that I wasn't testing that I didn't offend him by declining the test.  I have to wait 8 flippin' days before I find out what the heck happened Friday!





I <3 dorks, I am probably the biggest one I know!


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## Cirdan (Aug 26, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Nice. We have one 6 year old bb (poom) who has attended almost every class available for 3 years. I don't think 5 days/week earning a junior bb is a "miracle". Maybe we have different 6 year olds here than where you are.


 
Yes you must have. Most 6 yr olds on my planet do not have the neccecary coordination to start learning anything resembling MA. A 5 year old with this control would be exceptional. Starting at three years old is a joke plain and simple. Class for these would be about play and improving basic motor skills.


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## faerie2 (Aug 26, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> Yes you must have. Most 6 yr olds on my planet do not have the neccecary coordination to start learning anything resembling MA. A 5 year old with this control would be exceptional. Starting at three years old is a joke plain and simple. Class for these would be about play and improving basic motor skills.




Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty 

Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 26, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty
> 
> Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.


 

See I think you have to really define what you are teaching to 4-6 year olds.  I personally teach this age groups (affectionately called "little ninjas") and we call everything we do pre-taekwondo.  They don't learn forms or self-defense (in the traditional sense).  Instead they spend about 6 months on three different kicks, strikes, blocks, and stances and then another set for another 6 months and so on for two years.  They also learn "self-defense" such as knowing your home phone number, knowing that adults will not ask a child for help (ex: looking for a puppy), etc.  Our program is designed so that after at least two years these kids are ready to go into the real Taekwondo class.  The Little ninjas are awarded belts, and even a little ninja black belt, but this is not recognized as any sort of Taekwondo rank, it is not a poom and it definitely doesn't get a Kukkiwon certificate.  A LN black belt just means you are ready to be a REAL white belt.  I have found this to be a great system for kids because by the time they are 12 (and now a poom black belt) they have been doing basic techniques for 8 years, so they are going to be better off then a kid who starts at 10.  But at the same time I don't feel like I am sacrificing my art by promoting a 5 year old in the same way I would promote a 25 year old. 
Everyone has to find what works for them though.


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## YoungMan (Aug 26, 2008)

Great that you found a system that works for you as far as teaching kids. However, when my new class begins next week, the flyers make it plain that I teach nobody younger than 12 and this is the way it shall stay. I've seen enough 6 year old kids playing at Tae Kwon Do to make me realize this is not where I want to go.


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 26, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I'm currently a purple belt and have been only for a short time.
> 
> There was a belt test last night and I went so I could get out of the house, and because it's always fun to watch. I declined to test - I didn't return my test request sheet, didn't pay for a test, told the instructors I wasn't ready yet and wanted to wait until I was good enough and had more sparring experience, etc. I think they tested me anyhow :/ They called on me to do my poomsae 4 and 5 (not as well as I would have liked), strength and flexibility demonstrations, some kick combinations (again, not as good as I would have liked) and they even paired me with a black belt for sparring. I sucked, but it was still fun. They generally run tests every 6 weeks to accommodate people who have to be away, so they don't have to wait another few months (there are lots of kids at my dojang). For some reason, I keep getting tested far too frequently :/ I do go to class 6 days/week, but still the experience and muscle memory isn't there.
> 
> ...


 
faerie2

After reading this thread last night, IMHO I think you need to lighten up some.  You are putting way to much tought and or worry about this.

First off I believe as others have stated that you shouldn't decline the rank if they tested you.  You as the student might think you are not ready, however if the instructor decides that you are then you should test.

I take it that you are trusting what the instructor teaches you, say in the area of self defense, or in the application of this move or that move.  If he uses you as a demo partner you would trust him not to hurt you, if he wanted to show the class a head twist takedown and he picked you to demonstrate on would you say "No I don't trust your judgement"?  If he picked you to apply the technique (or any technique) to him would you say "No I don't trust your judgement of me"?  And if not, why then wouldn't you trust his judgement on whether or not you are ready to test?  The instructor has watched you in class perfrom many more times then what you have to do on a test, they know if you can meet their standards.  You should trust their judgement and relax about it.

A student who trains six days a week is going to advance rather quickly, for the most part they will advance more quickly than a person who is practicing say two times a week.  But other factors also come into play, age, ability, genitics, etc. etc.  But all things considered equal a person will promote quicker.  

The double promoting thing I wouldn't worry about, from the posts you posted.  I don't get the idea that your instructor is just trying to soak you for more funds.  So I tend to think that you have learned the material and he felt that you showed skill level of the rank that he awarded you.  THERE IS NOTHING WORNG WITH THIS.  I allow double promotions for the begining belts in our program because in order to allow the children to believe they are progressing, belts were added to the rank structure years ago.  (And to be fair to drive up test fees as well in some schools.) So when I came up there was Orange belt, now the first belt is Yellow then Gold then Orange.  But if I have a student who learns the material for Yellow and I don't have a test scheduled then I go on to teach them the other material and they test for the rank they are ready for.  And I don't charge them any more $$$ for test.

Now for the hard part.  I sense a bit of insecurity in your posts.  Perhaps a bit of being insecure of your skills and abilities.  There is a lot of "*I declined to test", "not as good as I would have liked",* and* "I sucked"*_, on this one you really need to lighten up it was a black belt you were sparring, you won't look good against them.  Your instructors probably wanted to see how you would handle yourself against a more advanced opponent._  In your later posts you even make some fun of yourself with your worrying, like you recognize that you are worrying about it to much while your instructor probably hasn't thought about it.  He probably hasn't to tell you the truth.

Many instructors would love to have students come to class, work hard and not worry about advancing in rank.  That in and of itself shows a maturity that we as instructors would love to have in students, and one that would probably advance more quickly through the ranks, or possibly not if the intructor wasn't concerned about rank either.  But either way the student still has to have faith in their instructor that they are not trying to do the student harm (or wrong).  So have faith in him and in your abilities and in your rank whatever that may be.

Mark


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## faerie2 (Aug 26, 2008)

Boar Man,

Thanks for your response - I TOTALLY agree that I need to lighten up about the whole thing. I'm just worried that I may have offended GM by not accepting the test at worst, and at best possibly confused him. Hearing the thoughtful responses posted here has certainly given me a lot to think about (and seeing that others here need to lighten up a little too).

I do trust my instructors, and their opinion of my readiness - although it's sometimes hard to swallow. I'm a work at home mom, and have been self employed for 17 years. I'm not used to being directly evaluated in any way, let alone having someone think that I'm good enough to test so frequently, so I was focused on "well, maybe he just promoting me because of _XYZ_". It just takes getting used to that someone believes in my abilities. It takes a lot for me to be proud of my accomplishments instead of feeling like they are flawed somehow.


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## igillman (Aug 26, 2008)

Sometimes we can be hardest on ourselves when it comes to what abilities we see. We compare ourselves to others and see that they are better than us. What we fail to see is that we compare ourselves to more than one person. He is better than me at forms, she is better than me at sparring, that other person is better than me at breaking. Of course we think we are bad, we are comparing ourselves (one person) against the best qualities of three or more other people. Who wouldn't look bad in that situation?


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## IcemanSK (Aug 26, 2008)

I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?


What has happened?


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## terryl965 (Aug 26, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?
> 
> 
> What has happened?


 
Good questions


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## faerie2 (Aug 26, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> I've looked at many, but all posts. What was the outcome of this for you? Did your instructor hand you new rank? Did he charge you for it? Has it said anything to you about this since your OP?
> 
> 
> What has happened?



I don't find out anything until the dojang opens up again on Sept 2   that's why I'm being such a basket case about it - I not only don't have my outlet, but I have to sit here and stew about it all for another week!

I will certainly let you all know what happens next Tuesday. Stupid holidays


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## IcemanSK (Aug 26, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I don't find out anything until the dojang opens up again on Sept 2  that's why I'm being such a basket case about it - I not only don't have my outlet, but I have to sit here and stew about it all for another week!
> 
> I will certainly let you all know what happens next Tuesday. Stupid holidays


 

Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.

If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions

Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.


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## faerie2 (Aug 26, 2008)

IcemanSK said:


> Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.
> 
> If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions
> 
> Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.



HA! I have been - well, maybe not 10 times each - I don't actually have room in or around my tiny house to do them properly without running into a wall, or Jolly Jumper, but the crunches, stretches and pushups, yes!! That and a 10km walk every day (my usual thing). We have a heavy bag in the basement, but it's a low basement, so I can't do any jumping kicks. My husband is even out of town until late for the rest of the week, so I can't even get him to hold a target for me :wah:

ANy other suggestions to pass the next week would be greatly welcome!


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## Svart (Aug 27, 2008)

Eat many fatty foods and a few seals then hibernate.


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## Cirdan (Aug 27, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty
> 
> Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.


 
I spend 3 hrs evry week training with and teaching kids, clearly I need more? Nothing wrong with improving motor skills, but a minimum of those is a requirement for starting to learn MA, it should not be what you need to grade for black belt even a junior one. Kids might pick up some moves faster than adults because they have less to unlearn, however if I would try to teach a four year old (who would have started a 3) the concepts of rooting and proper structure in a stance I would no doubt meet with little sucess. An adult who has a year of regular training will be more receptive. I will say it again, 6 yr old blackbelts only exist for one reason only; money.


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 27, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Boar Man,
> 
> Thanks for your response - I TOTALLY agree that I need to lighten up about the whole thing. I'm just worried that I may have offended GM by not accepting the test at worst, and at best possibly confused him. Hearing the thoughtful responses posted here has certainly given me a lot to think about (and seeing that others here need to lighten up a little too).
> 
> I do trust my instructors, and their opinion of my readiness - although it's sometimes hard to swallow. I'm a work at home mom, and have been self employed for 17 years. I'm not used to being directly evaluated in any way, let alone having someone think that I'm good enough to test so frequently, so I was focused on "well, maybe he just promoting me because of _XYZ_". It just takes getting used to that someone believes in my abilities. It takes a lot for me to be proud of my accomplishments instead of feeling like they are flawed somehow.


 
faerie2

Good post.  Now I believe you are getting somewhere.  Instead of sounding whiney and inscure you sound more like the mature woman that you probably are.  Being employed while at home, running a house, being a mom, and training 6 days a week, that is an accomplishment in and of itself.  From the sounds of it you are a driven goal oriented individual who is not use to having someone else grading them, and who finds themself in awkward situation.  Best thing to do then is relax and enjoy the break from class and don't fret over it.

If the instructors promote you then trust in their judgement accept the rank and pay the fee.  As others have posted, work hard to be the best you can be in the new rank and the next time you know what not to do.  This is one small faux paw in your martial arts life, I'm sure there will be others.  (we all have them)  And I'm sure your instructor will understand and know your a good student didn't mean any harm or ill intent by your actions. 

While you having time off, enjoy the kids, or work on something different that doesn't take a lot of room (since it sounded lke you are space constrained) like breaking down your forms into a self defense situation.  Or practice your forms outside, I use to practice mine in parks all of the time.  Just some random thoughts.

Mark


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## faerie2 (Aug 27, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> I spend 3 hrs evry week training with and teaching kids, clearly I need more? Nothing wrong with improving motor skills, but a minimum of those is a requirement for starting to learn MA, it should not be what you need to grade for black belt even a junior one. Kids might pick up some moves faster than adults because they have less to unlearn, however if I would try to teach a four year old (who would have started a 3) the concepts of rooting and proper structure in a stance I would no doubt meet with little sucess. An adult who has a year of regular training will be more receptive. I will say it again, 6 yr old blackbelts only exist for one reason only; money.



That's like saying we shouldn't bother teaching preschoolers their alphabet because they couldn't possibly understand the complexities of Shakespeare. We all start somewhere, why not there? Of course the schools make money from 6 year old black belts, they make money from 40 year old black belts too. Maybe where you train doesn't require bills to be paid, or the instructors to earn money, but from what I understand (as a lowly n00b) not many dojangs invite people to train for free. My kid loves her classes, she learns a lot and has made some friends, as far as I'm concerned, it's money well spent.


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## granfire (Aug 27, 2008)

not to muddle the waters with the BB kid discussion. But I think I have seen enough of the kids to see that most just can't do the BB thing ever, no matter how hard they train. But that should not exclude the rare one that actually has the mental and physical capabilities to achieve this feat by the tender age of 6.

But that also does not mean that the kid won't burn out before he's ten...

And I do remember seeing a demonstration of Shaolin Monks were 2 5/6 y/o boys stood with one leg straight up in the air for an extended period of time.

Would I do that to my child? hellz no. but it's possible I guess (which also does not tell the story of the kids that have not the talent and stay back and do KP at the monestery...)


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## Kacey (Aug 27, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> Wow - careful, you're starting to sound a little threatened and petty
> 
> Clearly you need to step out of your "planet" and spend more time with kids, they can do some amazing things. Many elite athletes began training at age 3-5, it's the beginning of the journey. So what if it improves motor skills, it also fosters interest in MA and helps them with basic skills, language, respect and history. My preschooler adores her classes and can do a roundhouse kick with far more accuracy and flexibility than a couple of newcomers to my adult class! This is why they have poom instead of dan. Kids learn far faster than "we" do and can pick up things with far more accuracy.



This is a subject of much discussion in other threads - particularly this one:  5 year old black belts?  Rather than derail _this_ thread, which is about your testing questions, you might go read that one - there's a long and detailed discussion already there.



IcemanSK said:


> Ok, here's something that will help: Stretch for 15 minutes, go over each form 10 times, do 20 push-ups & 50 crunches, finish by stretching.
> 
> If that doesn't relax you a bit, I'm sure Kacey, Kwanjang & Terry have some other suggestions
> 
> Thanks for the update. Relax & breathe deep. Time will pass.





faerie2 said:


> HA! I have been - well, maybe not 10 times each - I don't actually have room in or around my tiny house to do them properly without running into a wall, or Jolly Jumper, but the crunches, stretches and pushups, yes!! That and a 10km walk every day (my usual thing). We have a heavy bag in the basement, but it's a low basement, so I can't do any jumping kicks. My husband is even out of town until late for the rest of the week, so I can't even get him to hold a target for me :wah:
> 
> ANy other suggestions to pass the next week would be greatly welcome!



Patterns... there are all _sorts_ of ways you can do patterns (forms, kata, tul, whatever you call them).  Do them regular speed... half speed... double speed... hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too).

Instead of single kicks, do multiple kicks - do the same kick 2, 3, 4 times - but to different targets, without putting your foot down in between.  Do consecutive kicks (2+ different kicks with the same leg without putting your foot down).  Do combination kicks (2+ different kicks while alternating legs).  Combine hand and foot techniques.  Create step sparring routines and practice them without a partner - work on stances, focus, preparatory motions, whatever your instructor teaches.  Shadow spar instead of shadow box.

That ought to keep you busy for a few minutes, at least!


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## Cirdan (Aug 28, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> That's like saying we shouldn't bother teaching preschoolers their alphabet because they couldn't possibly understand the complexities of Shakespeare.


 
No, what I am saying is that it is neccecary to know most of the letters in the alphabet before reading a book. Shakespeare can wait.


Anyway, do tou think it is possible that your your instructor wants you to teach class and therefore grades you fast? With your background and obvious dedication I can see you would be the perfect candidate.


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## Windsinger (Aug 28, 2008)

Kacey said:


> hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too)


I think I'm going to add that to my practise time. Especially the hands only/stances only. That sounds like a great way to learn the patterns. Thanks, Kacey!


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## faerie2 (Aug 28, 2008)

Kacey said:


> Patterns... there are all _sorts_ of ways you can do patterns (forms, kata, tul, whatever you call them).  Do them regular speed... half speed... double speed... hands only (no stances/stepping - you'll find out just how well you do - or don't - know the pattern)... stances only (like the previous one - you'll find out how well you do or don't know the pattern)... dynamic tension (with your muscles tensed against themselves - that one's quite a workout)... in a box (do the entire pattern in the space of one stance - jumping from stance to stance - that one's a good workout too).
> 
> Instead of single kicks, do multiple kicks - do the same kick 2, 3, 4 times - but to different targets, without putting your foot down in between.  Do consecutive kicks (2+ different kicks with the same leg without putting your foot down).  Do combination kicks (2+ different kicks while alternating legs).  Combine hand and foot techniques.  Create step sparring routines and practice them without a partner - work on stances, focus, preparatory motions, whatever your instructor teaches.  Shadow spar instead of shadow box.
> 
> That ought to keep you busy for a few minutes, at least!



Those are great suggestions, I will work on those - thanks!!


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## faerie2 (Aug 28, 2008)

Cirdan said:


> No, what I am saying is that it is neccecary to know most of the letters in the alphabet before reading a book. Shakespeare can wait.
> 
> 
> Anyway, do tou think it is possible that your your instructor wants you to teach class and therefore grades you fast? With your background and obvious dedication I can see you would be the perfect candidate.



A few people I know in person have asked me that too, but I'm pretty sure GM knows I already have my hands full with two small kids, a business and a husband with an unpredictable work schedule. He already has his two sons, nephew and two other instructors (2nd to 5th Dan ) as instructors - all adults ftr  . It is possible, I suppose, but I couldn't picture it.


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## granfire (Aug 28, 2008)

kids grow up. Besides, even a Dojang profits from the female touch!


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## faerie2 (Aug 28, 2008)

granfire said:


> kids grow up. Besides, even a Dojang profits from the female touch!




His sons, nephew and other instructors (including a female) are all adults, although not "old" like me


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## granfire (Aug 28, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> His sons, nephew and other instructors (including a female) are all adults, although not "old" like me




LOL, I meant your kids!  Leaving you more time.


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## faerie2 (Aug 28, 2008)

granfire said:


> LOL, I meant your kids!  Leaving you more time.



LOL, clearly I'm still eyeball deep in the night waking phase. It does go fast - although I am looking forward to sleeping more solidly - and thinking more clearly.


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 28, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I'm currently a purple belt and have been only for a short time.
> 
> There was a belt test last night and I went so I could get out of the house, and because it's always fun to watch. I declined to test - I didn't return my test request sheet, didn't pay for a test, told the instructors I wasn't ready yet and wanted to wait until I was good enough and had more sparring experience, etc. I think they tested me anyhow :/ They called on me to do my poomsae 4 and 5 (not as well as I would have liked), strength and flexibility demonstrations, some kick combinations (again, not as good as I would have liked) and they even paired me with a black belt for sparring. I sucked, but it was still fun. They generally run tests every 6 weeks to accommodate people who have to be away, so they don't have to wait another few months (there are lots of kids at my dojang). For some reason, I keep getting tested far too frequently :/ I do go to class 6 days/week, but still the experience and muscle memory isn't there.
> 
> ...



Image and Affectation!


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## faerie2 (Aug 28, 2008)

Bodhisattva said:


> Image and Affectation!



But to whose benefit? I don't think it would look good on GM to have awarded a rank to someone who wasn't ready - or me having a rank that I couldn't live up to.


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## IcemanSK (Aug 28, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> But to whose benefit? I don't think it would look good on GM to have awarded a rank to someone who wasn't ready - or me having a rank that I couldn't live up to.


 
Perhaps monetary, perhaps status (I've had "x" number of students test), perhaps another reason. I wouldn't suggest any motives for anyone I don't know, but in general, in MA, I wouldn't ascribe strictly pure motives to anyone sight unseen.

Those are a few general reasons why someone might test someone who wasn't ready. I'm not suggesting that is your GM's thought process.


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## granfire (Aug 28, 2008)

Sometimes (and I do NOT mean the OP) somebody needs to be taken down a peg by falling on the proverbial **** at testing. Nice wake up call for the more rectal-cranial inverted ones....


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## terryl965 (Aug 28, 2008)

All I can say is do what makes you happy and enjoy, remember noones know anything until it is too late.


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## KickingAngel16 (Aug 31, 2008)

I sort of have the same thing with the advancement thing. I've only been in TKD for 2 months and I'm already an orange belt. I'm astounded that my instructors thought I was ready. I've been getting compliments a lot as well. One of my insructors said that I have a lot of determination and stamina. Then, one of the brown belts sees me going to nationals I found out recently. She sees me mainly in forms though. I still think that I'm not good enough, but apparently others have their own mindset. I want to concentrate on improving in sparring mostly. I got to spar my boyfriend who's a 2nd dan black belt on Friday night. I don't want him to think that he has to take it easy on me. It was obvious he was holding back. So, yeah, my goal is to get good enough in sparring to actually be competition for others.


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## igillman (Sep 1, 2008)

It sounds like you skipped yellow belt completely. We have some people at our place who did that and their only regret was that they never really learned the yellow belt form and step sparring.


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## terryl965 (Sep 1, 2008)

igillman said:


> It sounds like you skipped yellow belt completely. We have some people at our place who did that and their only regret was that they never really learned the yellow belt form and step sparring.


 
I have had other say the same thing, some of the basic that is needed to complete understand all the poomsae are not there.


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## granfire (Sep 1, 2008)

The organization might not have a yellow belt - we don't have orange....


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## faerie2 (Sep 1, 2008)

I did skip yellow. I did the belt test for yellow belt with the forms and everything, then the following week GM gave me an orange belt and told me that I skipped. I spent the next few weeks absorbing everything I could about yellow belt curriculum and I felt ready when it was time to test for green belt. 

EEP! I find out tomorrow about last Friday's did-I-test-or-not situation!


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## faerie2 (Sep 2, 2008)

I was given a blue belt today 

I told him that I wasn't even sure if I was testing and he said "well, you passed!"

Okay then!


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## JWLuiza (Sep 2, 2008)

Congratulations.


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## Mimir (Sep 2, 2008)

faerie2 said:


> I was given a blue belt today
> 
> I told him that I wasn't even sure if I was testing and he said "well, you passed!"
> 
> Okay then!


 
Congrats!


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## Laurentkd (Sep 2, 2008)

congrats!
sounds like it wasn't as big a problem as you had worried.  I only ask because you brought it up first, did you offer to pay for the test?


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## IcemanSK (Sep 2, 2008)

Yes, Congratulations. And, what Lauren asked!:uhyeah:


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## jim777 (Sep 3, 2008)

Congrats! So, what kup rank are you now, 6th, or 4th?


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## bluekey88 (Sep 3, 2008)

Congrats!


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## Kacey (Sep 3, 2008)

Congratulations!


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## Miles (Sep 3, 2008)

Congratulations!


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## terryl965 (Sep 4, 2008)

Congrats


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## Drac (Sep 4, 2008)

Congrats...


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## KickingAngel16 (Sep 5, 2008)

Congrats!


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## Svart (Sep 5, 2008)

El gratso.


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