# Finger Set



## KenpoGirl

Okay, when I have seen finger set done in the past I've always thought it was more than a little hokey, with all the finger waving and such.  

It reminds me of the three stoogies {Woo Woo Woo}

Now that I have been forced to learn the set ..... my opinion HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT!!!!  :shrug:

Now don't get me wrong I understand that it has a use, but sheesh.   

Anywise after the ranting is complete, I was curious at what speed are you suppose to do it, once you've mastered it of course.  A steady pace or zip through it as fast as you can?

Dot


----------



## jeffkyle

It is just like anything else.  Once you get the sequence of moves you start to play with the timing of the set.  Until you figure out what works best for you.  Your speed will vary with the change in timing.


----------



## Elfan

Whats hokey about finger set?  Looks fine to me.

Now stance set....


----------



## Michael Billings

Regarding Finger Set.

Opinions Vary!

-Michael


----------



## Klondike93

I've been wondering how fast one is suppose to go through this set too. I've thought it's as fast as kicking set which I was shown to do at a walking pace. I like the idea of finger set and I can see where one would think it's "hokey".

So how fast does one do this set or for that matter how fast do you the forms too?





:asian:


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *Okay, when I have seen finger set done in the past I've always thought it was more than a little hokey, with all the finger waving and such.
> Dot *




Hmmmm,
1. major/minor moves
2. minor transitionary moves 
3. shows inserted moves
4. depth of action
5. application of the finger techniques
etc., etc


----------



## Michael Billings

Kicking Set = Maneuver/Kick timing, I train it as a fighting or sparring set teaching how to maneuver as a function of range to the target, especially the first "wall" or side (a different maneuver with each kick), then we  practice shuffles on both sides and step throughs, although it is still about Ranges.  The timing is Maneuver/Kick, then Pause; Maneuver/Kick, then Pause.  Put Kicking Set it in an application frame of reference for the beginning student.  Show him what it can look like, then stress that it is ok to learn it at a walking speed, we all learn to crawl before we walk - In-Place kicks, then we learn to walk before we run - Kicking Set walking through; but eventually we like to run - apply Kicking Set as designed and use it to teach how to close and gauge ranges for appropriate maneuvers and Kicks.  YEE-HAAA!

Finger Set - Think fighting in a phone booth, think real self-defense in a limited or seated environment (a plane, your desk, etc.)  Think about a small person against a much bigger person.  This is not a stand up fight, this is an assault.  Finger strikes are to soft, realistic, vulnerable targets - it is not about who can beat who, but whether this knowledge can help you survive.  I adamently think it can!  Otherwise why practice any set or Form?  (OK there are a lot of reasons to do forms, besides I like them.)  

It is also real cool to do as a prefix to a harder style Form in a tournament ... not that I go to a lot anymore, but I probably earned over 100 trophys in my career (a shadow of the number my instructor at the time earned, Brian Duffy.)  And some were with Finger Set - Short 2 or Long 2, or Finger Set Short 3.  It showed the soft with the hard.  And the pace was the same as I would do anywhere.  Flowing with pauses and emphasis on finished strikes, then flow again to the next focus point.  Don't snowball through it, but don't make it painstakingly slow and the same rhythm.

-Michael


----------



## KenpoGirl

Hey Thanks for everyones input.

Didn't mean to bash it, I truely do understand it's uses, even more after Mr. Billings help.

Blame it on my Misspent youth, forced to what endless reruns of the 3 stooges on Sunday afternoon.  The very first time I saw it I laughed out loud because of the similarities it has to what the stooges use to do to each other.

Dot


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *
> Blame it on my Misspent youth, forced to what endless reruns of the 3 stooges on Sunday afternoon.  Dot *


And what is so misspent about watching the Stooges?


----------



## Michael Billings

Nothing is wasted watching the stooges.  If it is, it is my time to waste.  Hee-hee.

And you don't have to refer to me as Mr. Billings unless we are in person in a class, but thanks for the thought.
-MB


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by Seig_
> 
> *And what is so misspent about watching the Stooges?*





> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> 
> *Nothing is wasted watching the stooges.  If it is, it is my time to waste.  Hee-hee.
> 
> *




It's gotta be a guy thing.


----------



## Blindside

> It's gotta be a guy thing.



No, its not.  I can distinctly remember (I was probably 10)my dad watching the Three Stooges on television, and thinking "why is this funny?"

Lamont


----------



## Blindside

Ok, add on question.

Why is this belt taught at the mid-level ranks?  Some schools require it for green others for blue.  I'm just curious, we moved it to the Yellow requirements.  

Lamont


----------



## Elfan

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *Ok, add on question.
> 
> Why is this belt taught at the mid-level ranks?  Some schools require it for green others for blue.  I'm just curious, we moved it to the Yellow requirements.
> 
> Lamont *



Typo in there?  Are you refering to finger set or kicking set?  Or am I just confused again?


----------



## Kirk

At my school, it's required for green.


----------



## Blindside

Ahem, its a typo, it should read:

Why is Finger Set taught at the mid-level ranks?  Some schools require it for green others for blue. I'm just curious, we moved it to the Yellow requirements. 

Must proof-read....


----------



## Michael Billings

According to Infinite Insights:

1.  Stances - The legs form the foundation of all self-defense moves.  They are your first aid in creating distance -- man's first ally.

2.  Blocks - Student's should first learn defense before learning offense.

3.  Parries - Although they considered a method of blocking, they require a higher degree of timing.

4.  Punches - Offense utilizing the arms first while maintaining support and balance with both feet on the ground.

5.  Strikes - Teach a multitude of methods in which one can  render offensive techniques.  At this level the student also becomes familiar with the angles of execution.

6.  Finger Techniques - Specialized offensive weapons requiring a high degree of accuracy.

7.  Kicks - The balance factor makes execution more difficult.  It requires more patience and conscientious effort to kick with one leg and balance on the other to obtain maximum power.

8.  Foot Maneuvers - Require synchronized complete coordination of the lower and upper body.

And actually we work on them all at every belt level.  For example Yellow Belt Crossovers in B3a look very different from the blitz maneuver as done at Brown.  Or Kicking Set for Orange Stripe (or wherever you place it) looks very different at Purple from a 1st Brown doing it.

-Michael


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *Okay, when I have seen finger set done in the past I've always thought it was more than a little hokey, with all the finger waving and such.
> 
> It reminds me of the three stoogies {Woo Woo Woo}
> 
> Now that I have been forced to learn the set ..... my opinion HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT!!!!  :shrug:
> 
> Now don't get me wrong I understand that it has a use, but sheesh.
> 
> Anywise after the ranting is complete, I was curious at what speed are you suppose to do it, once you've mastered it of course.  A steady pace or zip through it as fast as you can?
> 
> Dot *



Hi Dot!
Gee, being canadian, i'm not sure if you saw this show in the "great white north" but it reminds me of Dan Ackroyd's comment to Jane Curtain on weekend update news segment on "point-counterpoint"on "Saturday Night Live"TV show..."Jane, you ignorant misguided slut! once again you've missed the point entirely!" J/K!!!!!!! 
Seriously,Dot, I can see your point about finger set so lets get some background on it...
according to "various sources" the set was originally part or a complete set that came from a kung fu style that Mr. Parker had learned from one of his "chinatown connection" sifus OR it was a set he made up for a demonstration based on the "Chinese Karate" finger techniques he had learned. 
As far as the "finger waving" goes [joke: "it's all based on WHICH finger you're waving!"]LOL
honestly, I can see where you would get that idea from aspects like the "windshield wiper" clawing action in the set. But, the set does teach you how to execute different "methods of execution" with the various finger techniques. I'll be more than happy to discuss it in detail with you via IM or phone call if you'd like!

As far as the "3 stooges" reference, CONGRATULATIONS!! You've struck upon one of Mr. Parker's greatest influences in regards to the understanding of reverse and returning motion,intentional and unintentional borrowed force, and reactionary positioning in regards to motion!!!! :::GOLD STAR FOR DOT!!:::
If you ask anyone who knew Mr. Parker, they could all tell you of his admiration,respect and joy of the "magicians of martial motion and mayhem"!
i'm sorry your opinion hasn't changed regarding the set, hopefully that will change with time ,effort,education and understanding. 
In regards to the speed of the set, always do the set initially with correct form,technique,purposeful action and power, then go onto speed ONLY when you have a thorough understanding of the set.
REMEMBER:"Speed kills, but technique is everything!"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
:::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:


----------



## Elfan

Blue for me. 

So you teach it at yellow?  That would seem a bit early to me.  How do students do with it?


----------



## Blindside

Quite frankly they do just fine with it.  Admittedly they do it at a beginner level, but that smooths out and the transitions get better as they get more experienced, just like any other form/set.  At that level it is taught as an introduction to handweapons.  By blue/green belts the practitioners have already learned and used virtually all of these handweapons in a technique, so it seemed sort of silly to have a set designed to teach them items that they already knew.  

It works for us,

Lamont


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by Klondike93 & Dot_
> 
> *I've been wondering how fast one is suppose to go through the finger set # 1.
> 
> I've thought it's as fast as kicking set which I was shown to do at a walking pace. I like the idea of finger set and I can see where one would think it's "hokey".
> 
> So how fast does one do these sets or does it really matter?:asian:
> *



In the beginning, you try to learn the basic outline of the form.  Then you start to put the definitions or accents in place.  The "base" speed for the finger set is as a striking set.  Each strike (finger movement) is an independent action and should be delivered as such.  Now..... you "can" do it for speed and if you follow the "equation formula" [which you should know and understand] you will see that speed is an option to explore as well as other variations for different skills.

Kicking set is the same as well as all forms, sets and for that matter techniques.

Come on guys...... common sense & Logic..... remember those?

:asian:


----------



## Elfan

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Come on guys...... common sense & Logic..... remember those?*



No evil one! There can only be ONE way to do all the techniques!!! None of your vile "logic."  ;-)



> Quite frankly they do just fine with it. Admittedly they do it at a beginner level, but that smooths out and the transitions get better as they get more experienced, just like any other form/set. At that level it is taught as an introduction to handweapons. By blue/green belts the practitioners have already learned and used virtually all of these handweapons in a technique, so it seemed sort of silly to have a set designed to teach them items that they already knew.
> 
> It works for us,
> 
> Lamont



Cool!


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> 
> *No evil one! There can only be ONE way to do all the techniques!!! None of your vile "logic."  ;-)
> 
> 
> 
> OK, Dennis...we'll take turns! I'll hold him down and YOU pummel him and it's MY turn!:EG:
> 
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE*


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Come on guys...... common sense & Logic..... remember those?
> 
> *



D'uh... Gee Dennis what's that????   

Hell, I only learn the set last week, I don't know what the heck I'm talking about.  I was just making conversation.  

When it doesn't take me 5 minutes just to go through the darn thing, THAT'S when I'll concentrate on the speed.  I had just gone though a class learning the set, so I wanted to vent a little.

  Come to think of it.  When it doesn't take me 5 minutes or more to do ANY of the forms and set competently THEN I'll worry how to make it look pretty ... _(oops they'll hate that)_ ... I mean powerful and strong and ... pretty.   

Thank you to everyone for your input.  

Dot


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> 
> *GOLD STAR FOR DOT!!
> 
> *



I GOT A GOLD STAR, I GOT A GOLD STAR. !!!  :boing1: :boing1: :boing1: 

Thanks for the help Joe.  I appreciate the help.  
I'll even forgive you for calling me a slut.  LMAO   

Dot

btw Joe, per out "im" conversation, the part I'm having trouble getting through is  ....

_13. Execute a right hand crane finger-whip to your attacker's eyes as your left hand checks at the groin. 

14. Execute a left hand crane finger-whip to your attacker's eyes as your right hand checks at the groin. 

15. Execute a right hand crane finger-whip from your right hip into your attacker's groin as your left hand checks at your groin. 

16. Execute a left hand crane finger-whip from your left hip into your attacker's groin as your right hand check at your groin. _

Crain Finger-whip, that's what I was trying to describe and doing a horrible job at.  :shrug:     This that section the right hand and the left hand can't figure out what each other are doing.  I'm probably doing an excellent impressonation of one of the stooges while I'm doing it.


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *No, its not.  I can distinctly remember (I was probably 10)my dad watching the Three Stooges on television, and thinking "why is this funny?"
> 
> Lamont *


Heresy!!!Off with your head!


----------



## Seig

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *It's gotta be a guy thing.   *


Try watching them again, they were masters of motion......


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *Try watching them again, they were masters of motion...... *



www.geocities.com/bambamhunter Check out the masters of motion in some kenpo action!!!!! I should have prints available in a week or two...my site needs some heavy work i had some crash issues a month or so ago!! But the stooges stood firm!


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *In the beginning, you try to learn the basic outline of the form.  Then you start to put the definitions or accents in place.  The "base" speed for the finger set is as a striking set.  Each strike (finger movement) is an independent action and should be delivered as such.  Now..... you "can" do it for speed and if you follow the "equation formula" [which you should know and understand] you will see that speed is an option to explore as well as other variations for different skills.
> 
> Kicking set is the same as well as all forms, sets and for that matter techniques.
> 
> Come on guys...... common sense & Logic..... remember those?
> 
> :asian: *



Ok so i am not as wordy as you!  But i basically said the same thing!


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *Ok so i am not as wordy as you!  But i basically said the same thing!   *




 :rofl: 

You call that wordy???  Don't get him started, he probably could write a book on the subject.


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> * :rofl:
> 
> You call that wordy???  Don't get him started, he probably could write a book on the subject.   *



He isn't the only one!


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> 
> *I GOT A GOLD STAR, I GOT A GOLD STAR. !!!  :boing1: :boing1: :boing1:
> 
> Thanks for the help Joe.  I appreciate the help.
> I'll even forgive you for calling me a slut.  LMAO
> 
> Dot
> 
> btw Joe, per out "im" conversation, the part I'm having trouble getting through is  ....
> 
> 13. Execute a right hand crane finger-whip to your attacker's eyes as your left hand checks at the groin.
> 
> 14. Execute a left hand crane finger-whip to your attacker's eyes as your right hand checks at the groin.
> 
> 15. Execute a right hand crane finger-whip from your right hip into your attacker's groin as your left hand checks at your groin.
> 
> 16. Execute a left hand crane finger-whip from your left hip into your attacker's groin as your right hand check at your groin.
> 
> Crain Finger-whip, that's what I was trying to describe and doing a horrible job at.  :shrug:     This that section the right hand and the left hand can't figure out what each other are doing.  I'm probably doing an excellent impressonation of one of the stooges while I'm doing it.    *



Ok,Dot,when I finally meet you i'll stick that gold star on your forehead for all the world to see!

the overhead and underhand finger whips are used in conjunction with a "push down block" checking hand as you cock the striking hand in a "shape of the crane" position, you then torque your wrist so that the back of your hand is facing your opponent and your wrists flexes forward so that your index and middle finger strike outward toward your opponent in a whipping action [preferably into his eye ball] you then turn your hand so there is a built in slicing action and then grabbing action to rip/pluck the eyeball out as you return to the shape of the crane position--but that's a kenpo secret! print this post up then eat it!--not the eyeball!] you normally don't do the slicing and/or plucking action but Mr. Parker did show it to me because he knew I liked the "gruesome" stuff! 
as you transition to the left side of the same set [6a & b] you utilize the "double factor" by opening the right shape of the crane hand into a right inward circular parry so that it ends up in the right "push down Block" position circles outward and up into the cocked left "shape of the crane" position. you then repeat the whipping action with the left hand.
In application, you would use the checking hand to push down your opponent's arm as you execute the finger whips
you would then do the same with the underhand whips to the groin area wth the underhand actions. 
there you go,Dot! now be a nice girl and practice your finger set and await my upcoming video tape on this wonderful set!!
if you're a good girl, you'll get snacks!!
 
I hope that I was of some service:asian: 
KENPOJOE
www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
:::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox:


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> 
> *Ok,Dot,when I finally meet you i'll stick that gold star on your forehead for all the world to see!
> 
> the overhead and underhand finger whips are used in conjunction with a "push down block" checking hand as you cock the striking hand in a "shape of the crane" position, you then torque your wrist so that the back of your hand is facing your opponent and your wrists flexes forward so that your index and middle finger strike outward toward your opponent in a whipping action [preferably into his eye ball] you then turn your hand so there is a built in slicing action and then grabbing action to rip/pluck the eyeball out as you return to the shape of the crane position--but that's a kenpo secret! print this post up then eat it!--not the eyeball!] you normally don't do the slicing and/or plucking action but Mr. Parker did show it to me because he knew I liked the "gruesome" stuff!
> as you transition to the left side of the same set [6a & b] you utilize the "double factor" by opening the right shape of the crane hand into a right inward circular parry so that it ends up in the right "push down Block" position circles outward and up into the cocked left "shape of the crane" position. you then repeat the whipping action with the left hand.
> In application, you would use the checking hand to push down your opponent's arm as you execute the finger whips
> you would then do the same with the underhand whips to the groin area wth the underhand actions.
> there you go,Dot! now be a nice girl and practice your finger set and await my upcoming video tape on this wonderful set!!
> if you're a good girl, you'll get snacks!!
> 
> I hope that I was of some service:asian:
> KENPOJOE
> www.rebeloskenpokarate.com
> http://members.aol.com/KENPOJOE/
> :::Getting off my soapbox now::::soapbox: *



Geeeee Dot thats more then I got out of Joe in a whole evening in a chat room!!! You must be special!!:rofl:


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Geeeee Dot thats more then I got out of Joe in a whole evening in a chat room!!! You must be special!!:rofl: *



I understand how you feel brian...I had the same thing happen to me...and even last night!


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Geeeee Dot thats more then I got out of Joe in a whole evening in a chat room!!! You must be special!!:rofl: *



Well you know, when yah got it yah got it.   

Actually I think it's more like, he realises how much help I need and is taking pitty on me.  

BTW  thanks Joe, I appreciate the insight.  See what I can do with it.

:asian:


----------



## rmcrobertson

Just to reinforce what Mr. Hunter wrote, I find it helps to a) keep the right elbow positioned directly over the middle of your flattened left hand when you do the right whip, the left elbow over the middle of the right hand next, and the bunched fingers centered in the palms on the low whips; b) start all the whips with the fingers bunched together at the tips; c) move your elbows as little as possible, "rolling" your wrist instead.

Thanks.


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> 
> *Geeeee Dot thats more then I got out of Joe in a whole evening in a chat room!!! You must be special!!:rofl: *



What Brian doesn't tell you is that I was in the middle of another Martial arts chatroom and 3 Ims!!!!!

But, i'll tell you what! you contact me with a date you want to talk in advance, and i'll clear my calender and talk to you in detail!
Thanks!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## KENPOJOE

> _Originally posted by jeffkyle _
> 
> *I understand how you feel brian...I had the same thing happen to me...and even last night!   *



Gee, did i mention that Jeff was there too?
Same offer made to you as well,Jeff!

BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> 
> *Gee, did i mention that Jeff was there too?
> Same offer made to you as well,Jeff!
> 
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE *



Just haggling you Joe!  Thanks for the invite!    We will try it again sometime, I am sure!


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> 
> *Gee, did i mention that Jeff was there too?
> Same offer made to you as well,Jeff!
> 
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE *



Is this open others as well? We touched only on a slight bit of long 4. Just curious.


----------



## brianhunter

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> 
> *Is this open others as well? We touched only on a slight bit of long 4. Just curious. *



The more the merrier!!!


----------



## jfarnsworth

hopefully next time we could cover more material.


----------



## Elfan

So is finger set 1 still hokey  KenpoGirl ?


----------



## KenpoGirl

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: 

No I will have to say it is no longer "Hokey".   Can you Believe it??

I am getting use to doing it, but I still have a lot of work to do. Certain sections of it, my hands just don't seem to want to do very well, but I am improving.

LOL  But I doubt I will ever loose the oppinion that it was created by watching the Stooges.  Heck it makes it a lot more fun if you add some ...

Whoo whooo whoooo's, and the Yuck Yuck's as you are doing the set.  

soytanly.  :lol:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *Hey Thanks for everyones input.
> 
> Didn't mean to bash it, I truely do understand it's uses, even more after Mr. Billings help.
> 
> Blame it on my Misspent youth, forced to what endless reruns of the 3 stooges on Sunday afternoon.  The very first time I saw it I laughed out loud because of the similarities it has to what the stooges use to do to each other.
> 
> Dot *



Ed Parker used to make references to the 3 Stooges and some of their movements as examples in lecture.


----------



## desert_dragon

If you don't appreciate it now wait until you learn Form 7 "Knife set" The opening of the form is finger set applied to the knife. Then there is also fingerset 2.:erg:


----------



## XtremeJ_AKKI

Start inserting strikes from Finger Set into some of your techniques, and you'll begin to understand the purpose and validity of the set.


----------



## Elfan

So how's finger set going KenpoGirl?


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *So how's finger set going KenpoGirl? *



Yes KenpoGirl,
You've had enough time to feel it out, how are you liking it?


----------



## KenpoGirl

Okay Okay, I confess.  I don't mind fingerset so much anymore.

I'm fairly comfortable with it now.  Only occationally getting screwed up the the ........ aaaaawww geeeeze what are they called?????   Oh yes the Crane Finger Whips (thank god for kenponet ..... oops can I say that here?).  My right side not knowing what my left side is doing.

Plus I got the added boost that I learned the "jist" of the movements for the set in 2 days.  Two other fellow students took two weeks to figure it out.  :EG: {pats self on back}

LMAO  of course that is tempered with the fact that it took me months to get kicking set, and two kids in class learned it in 2 days.  So I take what I can get.

I am soon on my way to learning finger set II so that should be worth a comment or two.  LOL at the very least it will be worth a laugh for my fellow MT members.  

To be continued .........

Dot


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *I am soon on my way to learning finger set II so that should be worth a comment or two.  *



Yeah, don't you need to sit on I for a considerable amount of time first. No use in learning new material when we still have to refine previous material.:asian:


----------



## Mikey

^
  l
  l

AMEN to the above statement!!!!

MD


----------



## Jill666

Although at the moment I'm learning this arm lock set that is very painful after about the 9th time through. (actually it's painful the first time, but excruciating the 9th time). The idea is to apply the locks in a sequence, then use both hands fuidly within the sequence, then be able to switch them around and get them on a live partner. My training parner & I are working on the third stage, up down & sideways. We did this after lifting the other night, then we had class (sai & bo work). The next morning I could barely comb my hair.

There's a next step, but I'm a long way from adept with my left in general, and against a resisting parner in specific.


----------



## roryneil

I always thought finger set was cool. I find myself doing it alot when I'm behind the wheel of my car (at red lights of course).


----------



## KenpoGirl

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *Yeah, don't you need to sit on I for a considerable amount of time first. No use in learning new material when we still have to refine previous material.:asian: *



It was November when I first learned finger set I, that's 5 months, are you saying I should not be learning finger set II yet?

 

Dot


----------



## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by KenpoGirl _
> *It was November when I first learned finger set I, that's 5 months, are you saying I should not be learning finger set II yet?
> *



I guess that's up to you and your instructor. As for me I haven't learned it yet although I do know it's a heck of a lot harder than the first set.


----------



## KenpoGirl

Fair enough.


----------



## kenpo3631

> I am soon on my way to learning finger set II so that should be worth a comment or two. LOL at the very least it will be worth a laugh for my fellow MT members.



For the most part FS II is FS I with foot maneuvers


----------



## edhead2000

So Dot, how do you feel about Finger Set after this weekend?


----------



## teej

Dear KenpoGirl,

I did not read all of the replies to your thread. Let me say this. If you ever get the chance to attend any seminar that Gary Ellis, 7th degree in England, is teaching, please make it a point to attend. I have never seen the Finger Set done the way he does it. His understanding and presentation is awesome! And he is a fantastic instructor. 

He has been coming to the states about once a year lately and he has a big camp in England every year.

I suggest e-mailing him some of your questions concerning the Finger Set. Just search his name, Gary Ellis, and his web site should come up with his e-mail. 

I attended a class where he went over the finger set. All in attendance were various degrees of Black Belt. ALL of us left feeling like white belts. A new perspective is like a breath of fresh air sometimes.

E-mail him. You won't be sorry.
Your in Kenpo
Teej


----------



## satans.barber

Does anyone know if there is a video on-line anywhere of the finger set?

I've tried to learn it from written texts but it's confusing to learn in that way, and having no intructor anymore I don't have anyone who can show me it 

Ian.


----------



## KenpoGirl

lol, I will always think finger set is an unusual but I finally learned the secquence a while ago.  This weekend I learned some more appropriate ways to set my hand for the "pokes" .  

The end of fingerset the way the IKKO people do it is different then how our school does it but it was nice to see the difference.   

all in all a good learning experience.

Dot


----------



## Bill Lear

satans.barber said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a video on-line anywhere of the finger set?
> 
> I've tried to learn it from written texts but it's confusing to learn in that way, and having no intructor anymore I don't have anyone who can show me it
> 
> Ian.



Mr. Tatum sells a video on Finger Set. Visit his web site: http:wwww.ltatum.com and you should find it about half way down the main page. His are the best instructional videos I have seen to date.

Now, if you want to get Finger Set from the source... Mr. Parker does Finger Set on a video called Vintage Kenpo that was produced by Chuck Sullivan. Here is the link to his web site: http://www.ikca-kenpo.com/store/index.cgi?ID=P3KXE7&task=show&cat=Training+Videos

:asian:


----------



## teej

satans.barber said:
			
		

> Does anyone know if there is a video on-line anywhere of the finger set?
> 
> I've tried to learn it from written texts but it's confusing to learn in that way, and having no intructor anymore I don't have anyone who can show me it
> 
> Ian.



Ian, if you are there in England, I would seriously look up Gary Ellis. Attend a class or how about a private lesson on the finger set and video your lesson.

Otherwise, Huk Planas has a "Short Form 2" video and it contains the finger set on it. (I believe that Gary Ellis usually has Mr. Planas come over to England once a year. Do you attend the yearly camp there? I would also suggest looking up Mr. Planas while he is there.)

You may not live close to Gary Ellis or where the camp is held, but I would plan for a weekend trip to take a lesson. It sure would beat trying to learn from a book. Books are good references after you have a base knowledge. If you schedule a private lesson and record it, that would be one hundred times more valuable.

I do persoanlly have several of Huk Planas' video's and each time I watch one, I pick up and understand something else.

Teej


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Mr. Tatum sells a video on Finger Set. Visit his web site: http:wwww.ltatum.com and you should find it about half way down the main page. His are the best instructional videos I have seen to date.
> 
> Now, if you want to get Finger Set from the source... Mr. Parker does Finger Set on a video called Vintage Kenpo that was produced by Chuck Sullivan. Here is the link to his web site: http://www.ikca-kenpo.com/store/index.cgi?ID=P3KXE7&task=show&cat=Training+Videos
> 
> :asian:


That video could/should be a thread of its own; heard about it forever, but only saw it recently after Mr. Whites seminar.  How freakin' cool was it to see the "old man" young, with dark hair, and "thin" (for those of you who haven't seen it, still a stocky, tall Hawaiian...why I put it in quotes).

The finger set was fun to watch, as were "technique one", etc.


----------



## Bill Lear

I really liked watching him in those old videos too. I wish there were more videos of him available to the public.

:asian:


----------



## KenpoTess

Reviving


----------



## goodwrench_mc

KenpoGirl said:
			
		

> Anywise after the ranting is complete, I was curious at what speed are you suppose to do it, once you've mastered it of course. A steady pace or zip through it as fast as you can?
> Dot


This may sound a little wierd, but my instructor plays the first 60 seconds of the Madonna song Vouge for setting the timing for the set.
I know it helped me, not sure if anyone else would agree :idunno:


----------



## Ray

goodwrench_mc said:
			
		

> This may sound a little wierd, but my instructor plays the first 60 seconds of the Madonna song Vouge for setting the timing for the set.
> I know it helped me, not sure if anyone else would agree :idunno:


I agree...it does sound a little weird.  I would have picked almost anything but a Madonna song.  Maybe some Motab, but on second thought not as accompaniment for a good work out.


----------



## jdinca

If you look at the purpose of finger set being hand speed and precision, it's not bad. Since I started learing this form some months ago, I have gotten much faster and much more accurate.

Does the set you do just have a standing portion, or is there a moving portion where the hand strikes are repeated in different stances?


----------



## pete

jdinca said:
			
		

> Does the set you do just have a standing portion, or is there a moving portion where the hand strikes are repeated in different stances?


 yes. that would be finger set 2, which unfortunately is not taught in a lot of kenpo schools.

pete


----------



## jdinca

pete said:
			
		

> yes. that would be finger set 2, which unfortunately is not taught in a lot of kenpo schools.



Thanks, Pete. Too bad. Finger Set 2 is the one I know. Adding movement to the precision and hand speed of the standing portion is a different ballgame! 3rd degree brown in my system also included Punching Set, Animal Set and Mass Attack (the form). I'm not sure if the rest of the kenpo world calls them them same. From the descriptions of Mass Attack that I've read, it is quite different from the one I'm familiar with.

This forum rocks!


----------



## shesulsa

Fingerset is the only Kenpo form I remember.


----------



## sandan

I like Finger Set, it's fast and compact.  It was originally explained to me that the kata was to teach speed and extension without over extending.  I am not sure if the version that everyone is referring to is the same that I know, but the kata is done from a solid horse stance and teaches you to maintain a good base.  A lot of times you watch people doing Finger set and their center is oscilating back and forth with each strike.  I was taught to keep my head on my shoulders on shoulders on hips.  We actually used to have this as a requirement for 3rd brown I think, but we have since not made it a requirement.  I think it's a very valuable kata.


----------



## jdinca

Don't know about finger set 1 but finger set two starts with your feet together, repeats itself in a horse stance and then a third round of the hand strikes while moving through different positions.

I've finally got my tail to quit wiggling during the standing portion. Definitely breaks your concentration when watching yourself in a mirror.


----------



## Michael Billings

For those who have longer in the art ... remember Poison Hand Set.  It predated Finger Set #1, had a "softer" more circular feel to it, with some minor stance changes (in place).  

I now do Finger Sets #1 & #2, but they came from somewhere earlier.

-Michael


----------



## melj7077

KenpoGirl said:
			
		

> Okay, when I have seen finger set done in the past I've always thought it was more than a little hokey, with all the finger waving and such.
> 
> It reminds me of the three stoogies {Woo Woo Woo}
> 
> Now that I have been forced to learn the set ..... my opinion HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT!!!! :shrug:
> 
> Now don't get me wrong I understand that it has a use, but sheesh.
> 
> Anywise after the ranting is complete, I was curious at what speed are you suppose to do it, once you've mastered it of course. A steady pace or zip through it as fast as you can?
> 
> Dot


 
The finger set is like other sets in the system, they were added to isolate information.  The finger teaches a lot of your insert moves, that is, moves that will cause a reaction in your opponent that will make the technique work better such as the eye hook in Shield & Sword or the finger thrust in Back Breaker.

As far as I remember the set the techniques are performed using thrusting, snapping, whipping, clawing, and slicing methods of execution.  

Hope that helps.  I no longer do the set but sets do have uses.


----------



## Doc

KenpoGirl said:
			
		

> Okay, when I have seen finger set done in the past I've always thought it was more than a little hokey, with all the finger waving and such.
> 
> It reminds me of the three stoogies {Woo Woo Woo}
> 
> Now that I have been forced to learn the set ..... my opinion HASN'T CHANGED ONE BIT!!!!  :shrug:
> 
> Now don't get me wrong I understand that it has a use, but sheesh.
> 
> Anywise after the ranting is complete, I was curious at what speed are you suppose to do it, once you've mastered it of course.  A steady pace or zip through it as fast as you can?
> 
> Dot


Like everything else, it depends on who teaches it to you.


----------



## melj7077

Like all sets the finger set is a way to isolate a particular group of basics.  While I don't know who developed the set this is what I was taught about it:

1.  It teaches the insert moves required to make certain techniques work   correctly, i.e. the eye hook in Shield & Sword to make him put his hands up, the eye slice in Parting Wings so you can get in your palm heel shot.

2.  The strike order covers five of the eight methods of execution (Thrusting, Whipping, Slicing, Clawing, and Hooking)

Mr. Planas put out a series of tapes on the Kenpo forms and on one of them he gives an explanation of the finger set which is excellent.


----------



## Sapper6

Does anyone have a link to an online vid of the finger sets?  I'm interested in what it is, just hate to buy a video for a one time viewing.


----------

