# Proficiency? Effort? Accomplishments? Spirit? What makes an MAist?



## IcemanSK (Aug 6, 2015)

I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"

 Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist? 

Is it only physical (one's technical abilities? Is it training daily that makes an MAist?

When you think of the ideal Taekwondoan, what characteristics make up that person?


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## TrueJim (Aug 6, 2015)

IcemanSK said:


> Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"



Interesting question. Back in my grad-school days I got reasonably proficient at playing guitar, but I never considered myself a musician. To me, a musician was somebody who could sight-read music and had a really good handle on musical theory. When I read your sentence, I asked myself, "Am I a martial artist?" and the word "artist" is what stuck in my mind. I don't think I'm an artist of the martial sort -- I'm just not proficient enough. I work hard and get some nice compliment on some of my techniques, but I've seen real martial artists just like I've heard real musicians.


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## IcemanSK (Apr 28, 2017)

Bumping this thread to see new responses.


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## drop bear (Apr 28, 2017)

Turn up.
 Don't be a duchebag.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 29, 2017)

For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".

To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.


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## JR 137 (Apr 29, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.



So if a person was physically proficient, but naturally got older, should their black belt be taken away?

What about someone who was physically proficient,  had a severe accident or two resulting in mobility loss, yet continues to train as hard as they can?  Should that person be demoted?

I train with a few people that fit the above descriptions, among other things. 

IMO, rank is a personal thing, just as everyone's reason for training is a personal thing.  What the people to my right and to my left have done to earn their rank and continue to do realistically have no bearing on me.

My criteria is training hard and not making excuses.  Demonstrate and apply what I can to the best of my abilities without worrying what the next guy nor last guy is doing.  I have more than enough things to worry about; worrying about someone else's training that I'm not responsible for doesn't help anything.


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## JR 137 (Apr 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Turn up.
> Don't be a duchebag.



I'd add train hard and don't make excuses.  But those can kind of fit into turning up and not being a douche bag.


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## CB Jones (Apr 29, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.



Wow that is crazy.

So let me get this straight.  Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?


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## JR 137 (Apr 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Wow that is crazy.
> 
> So let me get this straight.  Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?



I'm pretty sure that's exactly what he means.

My teacher has had both hips replaced over the years, and is currently holding off on getting one replaced again.  He can't move like he used to, so I guess he's not a real martial artist.

I love sparring with the older and broken down guys.  They become so crafty and punish me every time I make a mistake.  They move minimally, yet make me miss just about every time and hit me whenever they feel like it.

I guess they're not real martial artists either.


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## Jenna (Apr 29, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.


When you are older (like the person you have in mind in your definition above) and you are not so physically able as you perhaps are currently, you will not be a martial artist, and so what would you become? how would you define what you do in your MA at that stage?? thank you


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## Martial_Kumite (Apr 29, 2017)

IcemanSK said:


> I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"
> 
> Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist?
> 
> ...



10% luck
20% skill
15% concentrated power of will
5% pleasure
50% pain
(lol)

I see being a martial artist as more of a lifestyle (just an opinion). It is how you carry yourself inside and outside the dojang. It is how you view your training, job, assignments, other people. It varies, it is different, BUT you can tell when someone has it. For example, I do not see myself as a good martial artist. I am fairly new (been training only about 10 years) and have had major difficulty living this lifestyle. Does this mean that It had no effect on me.... no. It has, I am just terrible at keeping it so, which only means I am human. 

As for a practitioner (just an opinion), it is a person who practices and participates in the art, but does not have that kind of spirit/mindset/etc. It Doses NOT mean that they are any worse than a martial artist, but you can tell the difference between them. 

Just an opinion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2017)

IcemanSK said:


> I realize there are a lot of things that go into being a martial artist (Taekwondoan specifically) that's it's not one thing at the exclusion of another. What do you hold up as important in considering someone a martial artist? Do you distinguish between referring to someone as a martial artist vs. saying someone is a "practioner?"
> 
> Many older Korean masters I've spoken with emphasize having the proper "spirit" (Westerners tend to say "attitude") more than they emphasize technique or skill. It's always seemed to mean "show up, train hard, be a kind person outside the dojang." Do you see this as part of what makes an MAist?
> 
> ...


To me, there are two ways to look at this. Every person who practices a martial art is a "martial artist". However, many of us also recognize a philosophical construct that is also called a "martial artist". 

So, yes, everyone who practices or studies a martial art is a martial artist. But there is a higher level, a set of standards, that many (especially among the TMA) hold as an ideal for martial artists. I assume this latter is what you're talking about, so that's what I'll address.

Among the ideals I hold for a martial artist:

Humility
A "student" approach (always looking to learn)
A desire to develop life skills, not just fighting skills
Enhanced self-protection by consciously avoiding unnecessary physical conflict
Courage (a vague term)
Submission of ego to learning and self-improvement
Some focus on physical fitness - not necessarily athleticism, and this can mean a lot of things as we age
A desire to learn lessons from MA that go beyond fighting and direct self-defense
Honesty
Integrity with a set of personal values
Being open to other perspectives
I'm sure I could come up with more. Some will disagree with some of these, and that's not just okay - it's a good thing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Turn up.
> Don't be a duchebag.


Wait, do I have to do both at the same time?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.


So someone ceases to be a martial artist at some point, even if they are studying martial arts?


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## CB Jones (Apr 29, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> 10% luck
> 20% skill
> 15% concentrated power of will
> 5% pleasure
> ...



And 100% reason to remember the name.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> And 100% reason to remember the name.


I couldn't even read his post without hearing that line in my head.


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## CB Jones (Apr 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I couldn't even read his post without hearing that line in my head.



Not finishing the chorus was driving me nuts....


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Wait, do I have to do both at the same time?



Yeah I am a hard taskmaster


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> 10% luck
> 20% skill
> 15% concentrated power of will
> 5% pleasure
> ...


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 30, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Wow that is crazy.
> 
> So let me get this straight.  Someone could train their whole lives in TKD.....prove themselves in competition by being one of the greatest all time competitor......prove themselves numerous time in real life scenarios......attain a 10th Dan rank.....become one of the most successful instructors in the world.....have a complete understanding of the art.......BUT because their body has aged and no longer allows them to physically do what their minds know how to......you would disrespect them by proclaiming they are no longer a Martial Artist regardless of their rank?



When I mentioned "older person" I was thinking of the older people who get the black belt through attendance and effort.  There are plenty of terrible blackbelts on youtub; I'll let you find your own example. They may be a blackbelt but I personally woudn't think of them as a martial artist if they can do nothing more to defend themselves than their friend who never did any martial arts.  

Do I consider Arnold Schwartznegger a bodybuilder? Through his knowledge and better than average physique, yes.  Do I consider the old guy at the gym who started lifting weights 4 years ago for fitness a bodybuilder? Probably not.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Apr 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> My teacher has had both hips replaced over the years, and is currently holding off on getting one replaced again.  He can't move like he used to, so I guess he's not a real martial artist.


If a famous painter got into a car accident and became a quadriplegic and couldn't move his body and hence coudn't paint, would he still be an artist or was he an artist? That's a philosophical question I think.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 30, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> If a famous painter got into a car accident and became a quadriplegic and couldn't move his body and hence coudn't paint, would he still be an artist or was he an artist? That's a philosophical question I think.



To me, either you can do it, or you can't do it. It's just as simple as that. If you used to be able to do it, but now you can't do it any more, your time is over.

In the river, the back wave will push the front wave. The front wave will always crash on the rock and disappear. That's just the nature of the real world.


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## JR 137 (Apr 30, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> If a famous painter got into a car accident and became a quadriplegic and couldn't move his body and hence coudn't paint, would he still be an artist or was he an artist? That's a philosophical question I think.



Is his brain unaffected?  If not, then yes, he's still an artist.  Why?  Because he can pass his vision on to his students and have them carry on his work.  He could possibly put the brush in his mouth and still create.

My CI is far from a quadriplegic.  He can't move like he used to, but he can still move well enough to be on the floor.

If he was a quadriplegic, he could still teach effectively.  I don't think a teacher needs to be able to do anything physically.  A teacher needs to pick apart his/her students' flaws, and give the student the appropriate feedback so the student can fix said flaws.

Philosophical question for you - is someone who teaches the martial arts a martial artist, even if he/she can no longer physically perform any of the skills?  I'm not talking about someone who read some books and watched some videos without ever doing any of it him/herself, but someone who once was a physically competent martial artist.


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## Steve (Apr 30, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Is his brain unaffected?  If not, then yes, he's still an artist.  Why?  Because he can pass his vision on to his students and have them carry on his work.  He could possibly put the brush in his mouth and still create.
> 
> My CI is far from a quadriplegic.  He can't move like he used to, but he can still move well enough to be on the floor.
> 
> ...


What if his brain is affected?


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## JP3 (Apr 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> To me, there are two ways to look at this. Every person who practices a martial art is a "martial artist". However, many of us also recognize a philosophical construct that is also called a "martial artist".
> 
> So, yes, everyone who practices or studies a martial art is a martial artist. But there is a higher level, a set of standards, that many (especially among the TMA) hold as an ideal for martial artists. I assume this latter is what you're talking about, so that's what I'll address.
> 
> ...


To me, the above is an excellent start to list being a "Martial Artist" in the grand sense of the term, but it's also what is supposed to be what is pursued in trying to become a Good Person.

To me, becoming a Good Person is the "Goal." Being a "martial artist" is one of many paths to that goal, though there are many roads to Rome, or Mecca, or to my house for that matter.

At my house I have a huge TV to watch games, a backyard with outdoor kitchen and a refrigerated beer "kegerator" to provide libations during Houston's extremely hot and humid summers.  All of those things make me a great host... IF I am a Good Person and want to share them.

And yes, I know that's sort of trite, but it is still true.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 30, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Philosophical question for you - is someone who teaches the martial arts a martial artist, even if he/she can no longer physically perform any of the skills?


When you get old, your body movement will contain "old man flavor". IMO, you should not pass that "old man flavor" to the next generation.


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## Buka (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you get old, your body movement will contain "old man flavor". IMO, you should not pass that "old man flavor" to the next generation.



I agree. (Kind of) I've been teaching striking arts for a long time, but I've never taught someone to move like I move, I teach them to move like they move. So far, it's worked quite well.


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## JR 137 (May 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> What if his brain is affected?



If he can no longer think like an artist nor actually physically produce the art, then no, he isn't an artist any more.

Let's say Pablo Picasso was in an accident and became quadriplegic as a result.  His mental capacity for art is completely unaffected.  He can't paint, yet he has a student/protege/etc. pick up a brush and paint exactly what he he is envisioning for him.  He's still an artist.  His mind is still creating the art, no different than if Shakespeare dictated a story to someone who transcribed it for him, line by line.

If Picasso's injury left him unable to paint AND mentally create art, then no, he'd no longer be an artist.  Just like if Shakespeare could no longer physically write nor think up and dictate a story, play, poem, etc.


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## JR 137 (May 1, 2017)

Buka said:


> I agree. (Kind of) I've been teaching striking arts for a long time, but I've never taught someone to move like I move, I teach them to move like they move. So far, it's worked quite well.



That's the difference between a person just teaching what they've learned and a true teacher.  A true teacher teaches the students to ultimately think and act for themselves/on their own.  A person who just teaches what they've been taught or learned has people replicate them mindlessly.

Don't get me wrong; the beginner student should replicate the teacher when appropriate.  But the advanced student must be doing things the way that works best for them within the parameters of the art they're studying.  And those parameters become less and less as the student advances, to basically no parameters at the end.

Excuse me for getting all philosophical at 6:45 am.


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## Headhunter (May 1, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.


You're right I do disagree. That's fhe stupidest thing I've ever heard. Just because you can't kick high doesn't mean you're useless you just change your style of fighting if high kicks are your main weapon you'd have to use punches more simple as that


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

JP3 said:


> To me, the above is an excellent start to list being a "Martial Artist" in the grand sense of the term, but it's also what is supposed to be what is pursued in trying to become a Good Person.
> 
> To me, becoming a Good Person is the "Goal." Being a "martial artist" is one of many paths to that goal, though there are many roads to Rome, or Mecca, or to my house for that matter.
> 
> ...


This.

Because most people will only rarely need the self-defense skills I teach, and because those skills require maintenance over time so they need to keep attending classes - I expect them to expect more than just fighting and avoidance skills from their training. This is pretty common in MA schools, at least in TMA (as I define it), which is where I've spent most of my time. I've made it a stated goal for my program. People should learn more life skills. My aim is to help them become a better version of themselves: better decisions, more confidence, and all of the things I listed in my previous post.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you get old, your body movement will contain "old man flavor". IMO, you should not pass that "old man flavor" to the next generation.


Yes and no.

Much of the "old man flavor" (which I already start to have, because of my knees) is adaptations, and I teach my students the most effective movements, though some of those don't actually match my movements as well anymore.

But some of my "old knees flavor" has also produced useful changes. And those should be passed along. In most schools where an older instructor teaches, he/she probably also has some instructors or advanced students who are younger. The older instructor should be using them to demonstrate techniques a portion of the time, to point out what the goal actually looks like.

All that said, Buka is right: we should be teaching them to move in a way that matches them, rather than a single "right" way. Short people will often have longer stances in NGA (they need proportionally bigger steps to cover distance and shift their partner's weight), and also often have taller stances (less knee bend is needed). Put those together, and they should actually be moving differently from tall people. In my program, I count as "tall people", though I'm average height for a man. My wife is 10" shorter than me. If she moves like me at any point in my training, she's probably doing it wrong.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> You're right I do disagree. That's fhe stupidest thing I've ever heard. Just because you can't kick high doesn't mean you're useless you just change your style of fighting if high kicks are your main weapon you'd have to use punches more simple as that


You are making up things that I said, which I didn't say.  I never said you had to kick high.  I said proficiency.  I even specifically listed "punching ability" as a "proficiency" item.  My point of "proficiency" is ability to do SOMETHING effectively.  If you think effort, attendance and attitude make a person a martial artist, good for you. It's not my opinion, and you are equally entitled to your opinion.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Philosophical question for you - is someone who teaches the martial arts a martial artist, even if he/she can no longer physically perform any of the skills?  I'm not talking about someone who read some books and watched some videos without ever doing any of it him/herself, but someone who once was a physically competent martial artist.


For me, yes.  Although if he no longer teaches or practices, I would no longer consider him a martial artist but "formerly" a martial artist.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 1, 2017)

I was looking for a local boxing event under Boxing Ontario, and came across "How to Become a Boxer". Italics are mine.  

The local association calls a person simply training an "athlete" until he/she starts training for competition.  Only once the person is proficient AND looking to compete, is the person a "boxer".  So although some people think my point of view is "stupid" , I still think it is quite reasonable to have proficiency as the key. 

How to Become a Boxer | Boxing Ontario

_""In order to become an amateur boxer, *athletes *first have to become members of one of our affiliated boxing clubs. See below on how to contact a club. *The athlete trains* for approximately 6 – 12 months at the club learning the fundamentals of boxing; stance, defense, ring craft, offense, combinations, rules, and shadow boxing (non-contact boxing). *When the athlete*, and/or coach and parent decide the athlete* is ready to spar*, *the coach then must register the athlete as a competitor *with Boxing Ontario (to register see below). Once this is completed the coach can arrange *sparring sessions for the boxer*, which are contact boxing trainings that are not scored. The purpose is to hone the boxer’s skills and knowledge before stepping into the ring for an actual bout."_


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Just because you can't kick high doesn't mean you're useless you just change your style of fighting if high kicks are your main weapon you'd have to use punches more simple as that


If you are too old and no longer be able to do a floor split, how can you ask your student to train that in your class? As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, yes.  Although if he no longer teaches or practices, I would no longer consider him a martial artist but "formerly" a martial artist.



Old CMA saying said, "If you don't spar/wrestle for 3 days, your hands and legs are no longer yours."


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.



That is absolutely absurd notion.

There are many great teacher/instructors/coaches that no longer can.

Just look at gymnastics/baseball/football/basketball/boxing as an example.


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> That is absolutely absurd notion.
> 
> There are many great teacher/instructors/coaches that no longer can.
> 
> Just look at gymnastics/baseball/football/basketball/boxing as an example.


Let's take "pole dancing" as an example. My daughter Natasha Wang is

- 2013 California pole dancing champion.
- 2014 US pole dancing champion.
- 2015 international pole dancing champion.

She is teaching workshop all over the world today. One day if she will no longer be able to do what she is doing today, she will stop teaching and retire. IMO, you just can't teach students if you can't do yourself.


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

So according to you, Bela Karolyi should never have taught gymnastics?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> So according to you, Bela Karolyi should never have taught gymnastics?


If I can't lift a 200 lb guy over my shoulder, I will not teach "fireman's carry" throw. But I can still teach "single leg".


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## CB Jones (May 1, 2017)

Again, so is it your opinion Bela Karolyi never should have taught gymnastics?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are too old and no longer be able to do a floor split, how can you ask your student to train that in your class? As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.


I disagree. You should ask your students to do what is right for their training, regardless of whether you can do it, yourself. So long as you can effectively teach it, there's nothing wrong with doing so. If my back ever gets bad enough that I can't take the high falls off things like shoulder throws, I'll still require students to take those falls.


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## Headhunter (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are too old and no longer be able to do a floor split, how can you ask your student to train that in your class? As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.


No because they used to be able to do it and learnt how to do it but simply can't anymore which isn't there fault. They still did it in their day


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's take "pole dancing" as an example. My daughter Natasha Wang is
> 
> - 2013 California pole dancing champion.
> - 2014 US pole dancing champion.
> ...


If you really believe that, you've never watched an older person teaching gymnastics. There are plenty of people who can teach a back flip, for instance, who can no longer actually do one. And some of them are really good at teaching them.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I can't lift a 200 lb guy over my shoulder, I will not teach "fireman's carry" throw. But I can still teach "single leg".


If it's a good technique, why steal it from your students just because you can't do it?


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## JR 137 (May 1, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If I can't lift a 200 lb guy over my shoulder, I will not teach "fireman's carry" throw. But I can still teach "single leg".





Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are too old and no longer be able to do a floor split, how can you ask your student to train that in your class? As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.



Not quite.  Cus D'Amato, Teddy Atlas, and Kevin Rooney couldn't do what they asked Mike Tyson to do.

Angelo Dundee couldn't do what he asked Muhammad Ali to do.

In fact, I can only think of one hall of fame athlete who was/is also a hall of fame coach - Dan Gable, wrestler at Iowa State and coach of University of Iowa.

Due to hip conditions, my CI can't kick above his waist.  That doesn't mean he can't teach me to.

The best exampl I can give is a diving coach I used to work with.  He was a quadriplegic.  He could easily pick apart his athletes' flaws and correct them.  He was an excellent coach, and was formerly a higher level diving judge.

My former sensei was a terrific MAist physically.  Easily the best I've ever been around.  His technique and mechanics were pretty much flawless.  He could demonstrate anything.  But what did that do for me?  Entertain me?  He was quite good at teaching too, but being his physical self didn't make him any better as a teacher.  Truth be told, my current CI who can't kick above his own waist is a better teacher.  He's pointed out and corrected far more important flaws than my previous teacher did - both physical and strategic.  

If I want to sit back and watch someone perform, I'll pick the best practitioner for a teacher.  If I actually want to learn and improve, what the teacher can physically do means absolutely nothing.  Well, almost nothing.

There's a reason why very few of the best players of all time in their respective sports didn't have coaching careers to speak of, and why the mediocre players have been some of the greatest coaches ever.  And none of that has to do with them being great athletes.


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## Steve (May 1, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> If he can no longer think like an artist nor actually physically produce the art, then no, he isn't an artist any more.
> 
> Let's say Pablo Picasso was in an accident and became quadriplegic as a result.  His mental capacity for art is completely unaffected.  He can't paint, yet he has a student/protege/etc. pick up a brush and paint exactly what he he is envisioning for him.  He's still an artist.  His mind is still creating the art, no different than if Shakespeare dictated a story to someone who transcribed it for him, line by line.
> 
> If Picasso's injury left him unable to paint AND mentally create art, then no, he'd no longer be an artist.  Just like if Shakespeare could no longer physically write nor think up and dictate a story, play, poem, etc.


I disagree.   Maybe I'm just a romantic


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## JR 137 (May 1, 2017)

Steve said:


> I disagree.   Maybe I'm just a romantic



Shakespeare wrote plenty of literature about romantics like you


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## Buka (May 2, 2017)

In a boxing gym in my twenties, couple years in, never really skipped rope, didn't care much for it, wasn't much good at it, didn't have time for it, doing too much training in karate and boxing. 
An old guy, in his seventies, used to hit the speed bag, never saw him do anything else, never really spoke with him other than a "hi" while walking to the locker room.

One day he says, "Boy! You, Karate boy!" I said, "Yes, sir?"
He says, "How come you never do any rope work? Never warm up with it? Do you know how?" 
I'm thinking, oh boy, here we go, he couldn't just leave me alone. But I wanted to be polite, so I listened, hoping he would be brief. He wasn't.
He started to teach me how to skip rope. He said he didn't do it any more, he had trouble with his feet.

After a few months I could skip rope like a MF'er. But, more important, he taught me where to go from there, to improve and broaden my skills to higher levels. He taught me "the rhythm of the rope", forwards, backwards, sideways, it was all the same rhythm of the rope. After a year (and he was no longer there) I could skip rope as well as anyone I've ever seen. And it was the best warm up I had ever used. Used it for damn near forty years. But more important, he taught me how to teach others the rhythm of the rope. I can teach the most uncoordinated, out of shape, clumsies how to skip rope, and I have, repeatedly ever since. It's might be my best teaching skill.

And I never once saw him skip more than two or three slow steps at a time. Honest to God.


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## Buka (May 2, 2017)

In a boxing gym in my twenties, couple years in, never really skipped rope, didn't care much for it, wasn't much good at it, didn't have time for it, doing too much training in karate and boxing. 
An old guy, in his seventies, used to hit the speed bag, never saw him do anything else, never really spoke with him other than a "hi" while walking to the locker room.

One day he says, "Boy! You, Karate boy!" I said, "Yes, sir?"
He says, "How come you never do any rope work? Never warm up with it? Do you know how?" 
I'm thinking, oh boy, here we go, he couldn't just leave me alone. But I wanted to be polite, so I listened, hoping he would be brief. He wasn't.
He started to teach me how to skip rope. He said he didn't do it any more, he had trouble with his feet.

After a few months I could skip rope like a MF'er. But, more important, he taught me where to go from there, to improve and broaden my skills to higher levels. He taught me "the rhythm of the rope", forwards, backwards, sideways, it was all the same rhythm of the rope. After a year (and he was no longer there) I could skip rope as well as anyone I've ever seen. And it was the best warm up I had ever used. Used it for damn near forty years. But more important, he taught me how to teach others the rhythm of the rope. I can teach the most uncoordinated, out of shape, clumsies how to skip rope, and I have, repeatedly ever since. It might be my best teaching skill.

And I never once saw him skip more than two or three slow steps at a time. Honest to God.


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## Tez3 (May 2, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I was looking for a local boxing event under Boxing Ontario, and came across "How to Become a Boxer". Italics are mine.
> 
> The local association calls a person simply training an "athlete" until he/she starts training for competition.  Only once the person is proficient AND looking to compete, is the person a "boxer".  So although some people think my point of view is "stupid" , I still think it is quite reasonable to have proficiency as the key.
> 
> ...




That's as much for legal reasons as any other, boxers have to be licensed by a body that comes under the AIBA if they want to compete properly, they also lay down the terms under which a boxer can compete so that training is mandated by them. Of course they can fight unlicensed but that isn't the best way to go.


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## Earl Weiss (May 2, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are too old and no longer be able to do a floor split, how can you ask your student to train that in your class? As a teacher, you should not ask your students to do something that you can't do yourself.



I would hope all instructors would strive to ignore the above. Each in turn should try to have their students exceed what they could have ever done at their best.  If you cann do a flying double break but not a triple why would you not try to teach those who could do the double a triple?  There are physical reasons why you may never have been able to do the splits. That does not mean you should not try to have students with the potential achieve them.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (May 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That's as much for legal reasons as any other, boxers have to be licensed by a body that comes under the AIBA if they want to compete properly, they also lay down the terms under which a boxer can compete so that training is mandated by them. Of course they can fight unlicensed but that isn't the best way to go.


True, there is no "fun" tournament in boxing with no head contact like there is in TKD. My main point though in that post was that the association refers to a person training in boxing as an "athlete" and NOT a "boxer", until the point that they are good enough to enter competition. Then they are a "boxer".


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## TrueJim (May 2, 2017)

If Burgess Meredith can teach Sylvester Stallone to beat Carl Weathers...


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## Earl Weiss (May 3, 2017)

For my personal opinion. If I ever got to the point where I never again stepped on the floor to kick, punch or roll around on the ground and some one asked me if I were a Martial Artist, my response would be. "I was"


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## drop bear (May 3, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Shakespeare wrote plenty of literature about romantics like you



Wow. Was that a super obscue shot because shakespear wrote tragedys?

Cos if so. I am impressed.


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## JR 137 (May 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Wow. Was that a super obscue shot because shakespear wrote tragedys?
> 
> Cos if so. I am impressed.



No.  I wish I could take credit for thinking like that though.


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## hwoarang-hapkido (May 11, 2017)

When they speak about "the correct spirit" i understand it as "wanting to be better everyday" "always try to improve" like "always learning"


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## JP3 (May 21, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No because they used to be able to do it and learnt how to do it but simply can't anymore which isn't there fault. They still did it in their day


And Here is to pushing that day when I "Can't" off for quite a while yet.


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## Balrog (May 24, 2017)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> For me, proficiency is the key.  I used to do weights everyday, but given my small build, I was not "a bodybuilder".
> 
> To me, a tkd blackbelt who is not proficient (e.g., an older person who has no power, flexibility, or punching coordination) is not a martial artist in spite of the black belt.  I'm sure others would disagree.


I'm one of them.  I'm nearly 70.  I hurt all over the place and I know I've lost flexibility.  That doesn't stop me from trying to do the best that I can and more importantly, teaching my students to do the best they can.


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## Master-Theophylus (Jul 17, 2017)

I believe Martial Arts and being a martial artist lies heavily on the importance of the "Art" side. I've seen people come and go who think they're the best because they have the natural talent to do high kicks or flips, but often times they seem to come with poor attitudes. the important thing to me is the art its self. We have art galleries everywhere, where people go to look and appreciate art. Buy, and sell art. people respect, and honor the artist and the same should be said for martial arts and martial artists. A good martial artist takes pride in his art. honors it, and appreciates it. He is tenacious and steadfast when it comes to preserving it. he also appreciates others art. He reveres and honors his teacher, and accepts the discipline and instructions given by his superiors for he is humble. If there were three words for a proper martial artist, I believe it would be pride, honor, and humility.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2017)

Master-Theophylus said:


> I believe Martial Arts and being a martial artist lies heavily on the importance of the "Art" side. I've seen people come and go who think they're the best because they have the natural talent to do high kicks or flips, but often times they seem to come with poor attitudes. the important thing to me is the art its self. We have art galleries everywhere, where people go to look and appreciate art. Buy, and sell art. people respect, and honor the artist and the same should be said for martial arts and martial artists. A good martial artist takes pride in his art. honors it, and appreciates it. He is tenacious and steadfast when it comes to preserving it. he also appreciates others art. He reveres and honors his teacher, and accepts the discipline and instructions given by his superiors for he is humble. If there were three words for a proper martial artist, I believe it would be pride, honor, and humility.


I don't agree with this interpretation of the term "art". MA is not for display and preservation. It is for use and adaptation.

That's my view. There are some whose aim - in some cases, their chief aim - is to preserve a style. IMO, that will inevitably cause the style to stagnate and become less effective over time.


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## Master-Theophylus (Jul 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't agree with this interpretation of the term "art". MA is not for display and preservation. It is for use and adaptation.
> 
> That's my view. There are some whose aim - in some cases, their chief aim - is to preserve a style. IMO, that will inevitably cause the style to stagnate and become less effective over time.



I think you misunderstand what I mean by preserving your art. You may learn from a specific curriculum but once you become a black belt, your art is your own. You know enough body mechanics, techniques, and motions to know which ones best suit you and your style over others. This is YOUR martial art. And it is displayed, while you are competing, while you are training, and while you are teaching. I do not mean to stay you have to be strict and unchanging about your curriculum, I mean to say that you have to be steadfast in preserving your martial arts. We've seen too many martial artists out there who no longer feel the need to practice or train once they become teachers. They slowly lose their skills and often times become arrogant. You know the type. Therefore we must always be mindful of our training. Being tenacious when it comes to learning and preserving our art; keeping it in the best condition possible.


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## JR 137 (Jul 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There are some whose aim - in some cases, their chief aim - is to preserve a style. IMO, that will inevitably cause the style to stagnate and become less effective over time.



Koryu arts.

They're not for everyone, myself included, but they definitely have their place.  Like Mozart's music, I respect it.  Doesn't mean I have to like it and listen to it though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Koryu arts.
> 
> They're not for everyone, myself included, but they definitely have their place.  Like Mozart's music, I respect it.  Doesn't mean I have to like it and listen to it though.


Agreed. And I don't actually have a problem with someone preserving a MA as a window into that period of culture - like preserving a traditional dance. At some point in that progression, it ceases to have its original purpose.


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