# The best way to hold a staff



## Midnight-shadow (Mar 31, 2017)

There appears to be 2 main ways to hold a staff. The most common way is in the middle, splitting the staff into equal thirds. The other less common way is with the hands closer to one end. I've always been taught the latter style but given how popular it is to hold the staff in the middle, I'm wondering why it appears tp be the preferred method. 

What is the advantage of holding the staff in the middle as opposed to closer to one end?


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## Flying Crane (Mar 31, 2017)

It really depends on the overall methodology, which includes methods of power generation, specific techniques, and tactics in combat and application. It is a complete picture, or should be at any rate.

It's not really possible to answer in a big general sort of way, other than to say that holding at one end gives you greater reach, while holding in the middle let's you switch ends more quickly.  But that is not absolute, there are methods that cross over.


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2017)

Like Flying Crane said -- it's not a "right" or "wrong" question.  It's how are you going to use the staff.  If you want to keep your opponent farther away, you'll use grips that keep loosely 2/3 of the stick in front of you, but that forces you to use different methods if you want to use both ends of the stick.  A middle grip lets you employ both ends more easily, but you lose range.  There are even tactics and techniques using 1/3 the stick in front...  Very broadly, spear based techniques will tend to use longer holds, and focus on using the spear end rather than the butt end -- but I can think of exceptions...


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## Danny T (Mar 31, 2017)

Range...major deciding factor.


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## jks9199 (Mar 31, 2017)

The real fun begins when you learn to move the staff between grips...


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 1, 2017)

jks9199 said:


> The real fun begins when you learn to move the staff between grips...



Yes. In fact I've just picked up "the art and science of staff fighting" by Joe Varady who says you should start learning with the middle grip, then learn a sliding grip afterwards.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 1, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Yes. In fact I've just picked up "the art and science of staff fighting" by Joe Varady who says you should start learning with the middle grip, then learn a sliding grip afterwards.


That just really depends on what it is you are learning.  Once again, context matters.  The grip and how and whether or not you change grip will depend on the overall methodology you are learning.  Piecemealing it isn't a good way to go about it because everything will be out of context.  That's part of why I would recommend a real teacher over a book or video.


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## Andrew Green (Apr 1, 2017)

It's not really a simple question, staff covers a wide range of things.

A staff your height?  Taller then you? shorter?  hard wood? rattan? tapered? straight? against what sort of weapon?

If it's just forms, do what the forms dictate.  If you are sparring, you'll figure out what works best for you through experimentation in that context.


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## oaktree (Apr 1, 2017)

Depends also on the school. Different schools or styles have different ways to hold it and different postures so like a sword there really is no answer


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## JR 137 (Apr 1, 2017)

And then there's under the armpit vs outside the bicep.

Every school has there ways of doing things.  The only wrong way is not doing what your teacher teaches.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 1, 2017)

Both hands. No throwing and catching. No toothpicks. No lights. No music.


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## JR 137 (Apr 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Both hands. No throwing and catching. No toothpicks. No lights. No music.



So you mean in complete dark?  Lights help you see better. 

But I know what you mean.  Add fog machines and glowing bo to it too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Both hands. No throwing and catching. No toothpicks. No lights. No music.


Can I click "agree" more than once on this one, Bill?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> So you mean in complete dark?  Lights help you see better.
> 
> But I know what you mean.  Add fog machines and glowing bo to it too.


Hey, now there's nothing wrong with a good fog machine, as long as you carry one with you at all times.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

Why not both?

Depending on the what technique is needed during a fight.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Both hands. No throwing and catching. No toothpicks. No lights. No music.



Never understood the interpretation or reasoning for throwing your bo in the air or any other big tricks some do.


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## Danny T (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Never understood the interpretation or reasoning for throwing your bo in the air or any other big tricks some do.


Myself...but then many weapon forms competition is about looking good, cool, & exciting rather than what is efficient & practical.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Why not both?
> 
> Depending on the what technique is needed during a fight.



Yes. Actually the main reason why I started looking at other styles is because I find it incredibly difficult to block low strikes on my left hand side. If I used a middle grip it would be a lot easier to block those kinds of strikes.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 2, 2017)

I can think of at least 3 different grips in a Shaolin Long Fist form I once learned.
I can think of at least 2 in a Xingyi Wuxing form
Also I believe there are at least 2 in the taiiji staff form I was learning
And there were at least 3 or 4 in a Chinese Opera form I once knew

As for where to start.... depends on the style and form


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> I can think of at least 3 different grips in a Shaolin Long Fist form I once learned.
> I can think of at least 2 in a Xingyi Wuxing form
> Also I believe there are at least 2 in the taiiji staff form I was learning
> And there were at least 3 or 4 in a Chinese Opera form I once knew
> ...



Just out of curiosity, which grip was most comfortable for you to use?


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Never understood the interpretation or reasoning for throwing your bo in the air or any other big tricks some do.



Well, it gets that pesky stick out of your hands so you can use them to fight with, of course!


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Why not both?
> 
> Depending on the what technique is needed during a fight.
> 
> ...


Recovery if your weapon gets knocked into the air, you can catch it and counter quickly.


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Myself...but then many weapon forms competition is about looking good, cool, & exciting rather than what is efficient & practical.


I agree but often times in traditional styles the spins and throws are about recovery of the weapon if you lose it.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> Recovery if your weapon gets knocked into the air, you can catch it and counter quickly.



Seems like you would be better off using that time focusing on weapon retention and grip.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Just out of curiosity, which grip was most comfortable for you to use?



Never found any of the ways to hold a staff uncomfortable, but these two are likely most common


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## Flying Crane (Apr 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Just out of curiosity, which grip was most comfortable for you to use?


I won't answer for Xue, but will suggest a better way to look at it once again is the overall methodology, which would include specifics on grip.

IF THe method speaks to you, likely you will find the grip makes sense in that context.

I know a couple methods of staff, both gripping at one end to use the full length of the weapon.  One of these methods does a lot of switching from one end to the other, but still using the full length.  The other method pretty much stays at the same end of the staff all the way through.  The grip is different for each of these methods.  Within their own context, they make sense and are comfortable.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Never found any of the ways to hold a staff uncomfortable, but these two are likely most common



Just an observation.

It seems like that would be great while your opponent is kept outside at distance but would be problematic once your opponent gets inside of the staffs reach.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> It seems like that would be great while your opponent is kept outside at distance but would be problematic once your opponent gets inside of the staffs reach.



Well, a staff is a long weapon.  There are places and circumstances in which it becomes less useful.

But a good method will also include ways to shift and change the grip and allow for a changing range.

As I keep saying, there should be a complete picture with the staff method.  It isn't just an unchanging grip.  You can't take one aspect of the method, such as the grip, and put it into a vacuum.  Context is very important and flexibility exists to meet changing demands.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, a staff is a long weapon.  There are places and circumstances in which it becomes less useful.
> 
> But a good method will also include ways to shift and change the grip and allow for a changing range.
> 
> As I keep saying, there should be a complete picture with the staff method.  It isn't just an unchanging grip.  You can't take one aspect of the method, such as the grip, and put it into a vacuum.  Context is very important and flexibility exists to meet changing demands.



Agree.  That's why to me it would only be smart to know how to use a staff held at different positions depending on the actions of the fight instead of studying one particular position.

So in reality....there is no best method, just multiple methods.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Just an observation.
> 
> It seems like that would be great while your opponent is kept outside at distance but would be problematic once your opponent gets inside of the staffs reach.



this is of course assuming that this is a static posture and neither the position of the staff or the hand positioning can change


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Seems like you would be better off using that time focusing on weapon retention and grip.


It may seem that way yes, but being able to recover from a bad position or being able to catch a weapon in mid-flight is, in terms of weapon combat, a useful skill. Being able to retain the weapon is obviously important, but being able to recover is also important I would say.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> It may seem that way yes, but being able to recover from a bad position or being able to catch a weapon in mid-flight is, in terms of weapon combat, a useful skill. Being able to retain the weapon is obviously important, but being able to recover is also important I would say.



No offense but I find it hard to believe that while fighting an adversary you are going to catch your weapon that has been knocked out of your hand while fighting.

If the weapon has been knocked out of your hand....you are being actively engaged by your opponent.  No way you are fending him off and catching that weapon.

And practicing catching a weapon that was knocked from your hands seems futile since you have no idea where it will be knocked to.


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> No offense but I find it hard to believe that while fighting an adversary you are going to catch your weapon that has been knocked out of your hand while fighting.
> 
> If the weapon has been knocked out of your hand....you are being actively engaged by your opponent.  No way you are fending him off and catching that weapon.
> 
> And practicing catching a weapon that was knocked from your hands seems futile since you have no idea where it will be knocked to.


I believe it has to deal with coordination with the weapon when you have limited control over it. Again it's about recovery, not just catching weapons, although that is part of the skill. The catching of a weapon doesn't have to be your own, it could be one that your buddy could be throwing to you (just as an example). I understand that it sounds stupid, but you have to remember that these are skills from a long time ago where fighting with weapons was much more common.


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## CB Jones (Apr 2, 2017)

DanT said:


> I understand that it sounds stupid, but you have to remember that these are skills from a long time ago where fighting with weapons was much more common.



But I don't think a long time ago they were using 4 oz glow in the dark glittery toothpick bos that they threw high in the air while they did their best Michael Jackson spin.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> What is the advantage of holding the staff in the middle as opposed to closer to one end?


The staff is also called "2 heads snake". When you hold on the 1/3 and 2/3 spot, if you release your

- left hand, your staff can hit 2/3 staff length to your right.
- right hand, your staff can hit 2/3 staff length to your left.

This way, you can attack your opponent with both end of your staff. Even you don't release your hand, you can use one side to hit your opponent's upper body, and use the other side to hit your opponent's low body.


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## DanT (Apr 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> But I don't think a long time ago they were using 4 oz glow in the dark glittery toothpick bos that they threw high in the air while they did their best Michael Jackson spin.


Haha probably not LOL


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 3, 2017)

Hold it like this.  Then hit 'em hard.


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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 3, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, a staff is a long weapon.  There are places and circumstances in which it becomes less useful.
> 
> But a good method will also include ways to shift and change the grip and allow for a changing range.
> 
> As I keep saying, there should be a complete picture with the staff method.  It isn't just an unchanging grip.  You can't take one aspect of the method, such as the grip, and put it into a vacuum.  Context is very important and flexibility exists to meet changing demands.



I understand completely where you are coming from, thanks. Does Tibetan Crane use a staff? If so, what is the methodology behind their use of it?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I understand completely where you are coming from, thanks. Does Tibetan Crane use a staff? If so, what is the methodology behind their use of it?


We do, we use a method that keeps the grip at one end of the staff, but we may shift from one end to the other and alternate ends in that way.  The grip may also shift from it being palms facing each other, to palms both facing down/away.  The methodology is consistent with how we use a full body connection to generate our power.  The staff follows that same methodology, and the grips and how/when/why we change the grip is in line with our overarching method.  I haven't learned the entir system but I've seen most of it, and I haven't seen any staff that deliberately holds the staff in the middle and keeps that kind of grip to fight from there.  We tend to feel that when you have a long weapon, you should use that reach and distance.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)




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## Midnight-shadow (Apr 3, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


>



Is Xingyi related to Wudang, because that form looks very similar to a Wudang Tai He form that I have a video of.


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## jks9199 (Apr 3, 2017)

Very broadly, and certainly not exclusively...
You have three holds, front, middle, and rear.  These are based on how much of the stick is in front of you.
You also have single and double hand grips. Really, there's only one way to do a single hand grip.   Double hand, there are three:  both palms up, both palms down, and mixed  (one each way).

Everything else comes down to combining these.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## DanT (Apr 3, 2017)

In one of the staff forms I learned (second northern Shaolin staff form), we alternate between holding one end of the staff and the middle. You hold the end of the staff for long range, and the middle for close range. For Wing Chun you just hold the one end of the Boon Kwan because it's not practical to hold the middle (it's too long). In monkey style the staff is always held in the middle. Maybe some monkey styles hold the end tho I'm not too sure.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 3, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Is Xingyi related to Wudang, because that form looks very similar to a Wudang Tai He form that I have a video of.



Yes and no. Wudang does a form of Xingyiquan but Xingyiquan did not come from Wudang


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## Langenschwert (Apr 9, 2017)

There's really only context. 

The following shows the staff of Andre Paurnfeyndt, which seems to have nearly every grip imaginable!


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## Juany118 (Apr 22, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> It really depends on the overall methodology, which includes methods of power generation, specific techniques, and tactics in combat and application. It is a complete picture, or should be at any rate.
> 
> It's not really possible to answer in a big general sort of way, other than to say that holding at one end gives you greater reach, while holding in the middle let's you switch ends more quickly.  But that is not absolute, there are methods that cross over.



I would just add it also depends on the length of the staff.  There really is no practical way to hold the Luk Dim Boon Kwan in the middle dividing it into thirds, as one example.


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## VintageModMan (Apr 26, 2017)

I think another good question would be length of staff would be dependent on style and hold. IMHO. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## CB Jones (Apr 26, 2017)

Its Funny....Until you see the Bunkai interpretation and then your like








Kid has skill!


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## Juany118 (Apr 27, 2017)

VintageModMan said:


> I think another good question would be length of staff would be dependent on style and hold. IMHO.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk



Well while it has been noted that length of staff is important the other point you raise is, I think, a chicken and the egg kinda thing.  Is the style what determines staff length of the length of the staff involve the style.  As an example, it is said by some that the length of the Luk Dim Boon Kwan used in WC is because it was added later by the Red Boat Opera and their poles were LONG because they simply adapted the pole used to guide barges and boats along the water ways.


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## skribs (Mar 2, 2018)

I would say...

*Holding Centered
*
Holding centered has advantages in that it can be quicker to deploy, you get more choice in how you deploy it, and you can follow up quicker.  It's also MUCH better for demonstrations as you spin around the center of mass.  It's going to be better against an opponent that is closer in, and work better with your footwork.

*Holding to One End
*
Holding on one end gives you more reach and more power, as the lever arm is longer.  This will be better if you want powerful sweeping strikes to keep someone at bay. 

I mostly train centered, but I'd probably hold towards one end if I needed a staff to defend myself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2018)

skribs said:


> I would say...
> 
> *Holding Centered
> *
> ...


I train both, and the transition between. If I ever get a student to that point in my curriculum, I’ll teach center over-under hold as the foundation.


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