# Wing Chun and MMA



## Z-Man (Aug 29, 2010)

Ive been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences.  I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler.  He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye.  Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened.  This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner.  He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasnt injured at all.   

  This opened my eyes (no pun intended) that sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin are the great equalizer in a real fight.  Of course, Ive heard about this concept, but never experienced it first hand against a master martial artist.

  Wing Chun seems to specialize in these sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin.  In the sport of MMA these nerve attacks to the eyes and groin are prohibited.  The lack of devastating nerve attacks in MMA takes the true realism out of this competition.  Of course if these attacks were allowed, the sport would be too brutal for the general public.  Although, some exponents of MMA says that eye and groin strikes are ineffective anyway against a tough opponent.  I am guessing in reality if someone can not see or walk well they will not be able to fight.

  This reliance on practical sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin is what mainly separates the self-defense based striking arts (wing chun, karate) from the sport based striking arts (thai boxing, western boxing) IMHO.  Solar plexus and jaw strikes of course are nerve attacks, but attacking the eyes and groin does not require as much athletic strength.  

  These are just my thoughts on the subject.

  What are your thoughts on the above?


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## mook jong man (Aug 29, 2010)

Who says Wing Chun specialises in strikes to the groin and eyes ?
Wing Chun specialises in generating power from extremely close range.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2010)

Z-Man said:


> Ive been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences. I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler. He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye. Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened. This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner. He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasnt injured at all.
> 
> I'm surprised you haven't seen or had it happen before, it's a fairly common accident.
> 
> ...


 
My thoughts are that it's another style V style thread.


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## zepedawingchun (Aug 29, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> . . . . .Wing Chun specialises in generating power from extremely close range.


 
So we can use it aiming for the eyes, throat, solar plexus, and groin.


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## geezer (Aug 29, 2010)

Heck, anybody can practice targeting the eyes, groin, and other sensitive areas that are illegal in sport competition. And I'll bet every cent I have that any MMA fighter worth a damn has dealt with that stuff outside the ring. Just try and imagine someone like Bas Rutan saying "Eye poke? Never thought of that!". 

On the other hand, you do make a great point that if sport competition is all you've ever done, you can overlook things like that. Personally, I think it's the _surprise factor_ that debilitated your friend. I had the same thing happen to me once in a high-school wrestling match a zillion years ago. My opponent was much better than I, but when I shot-in he went all weak and wobbly. I took him down and pinned him fast. Only afterwards did it come out that, without realizing it, I had poked him hard in the eye when I threw up my hands in an attempt to distract him as I went for the shoot. So yeah, it can work, but IMHO you can't count on it in a real fight where people are _expecting_ that kind of thing.


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## Tensei85 (Aug 29, 2010)

Off track, but I've trained at a MMA gym for a few years in the past. 
I've seen 1st hand MMA work on the street, I've watched an MMA guy incapacitate 3 guys at a bar haha good times. So this stuff does work, IMO I think the only difference between Mixed Martial Arts & Traditional Martial Arts is that one holds to more Contemporary approaches while the other still holds to more traditional Philosophy, Culture, Heritage. Haha not saying MMA doesn't have any of those, but really it comes down to how you train. But you can trace all the core structures in MMA to TMA, now they've evolved things in some respects for what they need it to do. 

MMA can work in the streets, TMA can work in the ring if you train it that way but in my opinion they are really one in the same. Just one's taken a more modern approach. 

So I can't see it being a TMA vs MMA topic, it should be "how to train realistically topic". And I feel a lot of MMA schools do a great job with that, but that's what people are looking for when they go to an MMA gym, whereas in TMA I've actually been to places that would lose students if their training was to arduous or realistic, so keep that in mind they ended up giving in & selling chop suey because that's what the clients wanted to buy into a dillusional view of reality. But then I've seen some TMA guys that could easily deflect anything I had, including take downs which I enjoy btw. 

So some guys/girls in TMA suck, & some MMA guys/girls suck that's reality! 

Just my opinion, not saying its accurate or even factual just whats on my mind.

Thanks for the advice given above.


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## Z-Man (Aug 29, 2010)

Thank you for your responses, I will keep the comment on generating power from extremely close range in mind when I train.  Just page through any Wing Chun or JKD book and it will probably be riddled with attacks to the eyes and groin.  It is like saying aikido specializes in wrist locks and replying that no aikido blends with an attackers energy.

  I have trained in both TMA and MMA.  I have great respect for both arts.  The magic is to compare and contrast for a better understanding.  Not to beat down an individual or art.


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## mook jong man (Aug 29, 2010)

How much power do you need to poke someone in the eye or in the throat ? , and why train for years learning how to do it ? , thats something you could teach someone in a few lessons.

As for kicking the groin , yes if the opportunity presents itself we will kick it , but when someone advances towards you with evil intentions the first target he presents will be his knee and shins , kicking these targets is a lot faster and doesn't put the balance too much at risk.

The bread and butter techniques of Wing Chun are the punch and the palm strike , work on generating a lot of power at close range with these tools and you don't need to go poking peoples eyes out.

I get the feeling sometimes that some American Wing Chun seems to be an amalgam of Wing Chun mixed in with a liberal helping of Bruce Lee's  JKD theories and techniques like finger jabs to the eyeballs etc.


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## profesormental (Aug 30, 2010)

Greetings.

To poke someone's eyes, smash their groin and strike a throat, you need no training or skill.

Now, many call the process of repeatedly poking eyes, smashing groins and striking throat Reality Based Self Defense courses. 

(Not all, of course, just joking a bit.)

Yes, stuff like eye pokes can be debilitating, IF YOU HAVE NO INTENT TO DO HARM OR KILL.

If you are a really violent person focused and intending to do actual harm on another human being with hate and rage...

it will only piss you off. It might derail you a bit, yet you'll want to keep going instead of going to the ref and taking a breather.

Think about it.

If you're grappling and one of you gets pepper spray on their eyes, they'll stop and scream and squirm.

Yet for Law Enforcement officials in many places, pepper spray is not recommended for truly violent individuals...

cause they keep on coming. With a bit of a disadvantage, yet they keep coming.

I've seen this in huge brawls at several night clubs.

Ask if you want me to write the whole story for your reading pleasure. It was awesomely funny and insane times.

Thus those kings of strikes, while nice to work on and effective in practice, don't translate well against attackers intent on causing serious bodily injury or death upon you.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado
A dude from a tropical Island that don't know nothin' about *** beatings, Kung Fu nor MMA...

... even though he's been teachin' and lovin' the stuff for more than 15 years.


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## vatesi (Aug 30, 2010)

I'm sure everyone would love to hear the story if you don't mind typing it out


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## Steve (Aug 30, 2010)

In the documentary, Choke, Yuki Nakai is eye gouged in a fight, goes on to defeat that guy and the next guy (wearing a giant eye bandage) before losing to Rickson Gracie in the final. He is then forced to retire because he could never see correctly out of that eye again. 

Point being that there is no such thing as a guaranteed fight ending technique that doesn't kill the opponent. In a school, if I get poked in the eye, I stop and make sure it's okay before continuing. If I get poked in the eye in a situation where I believe I'm fighting for my life, things might go differently.


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## dungeonworks (Aug 30, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> How much power do you need to poke someone in the eye or in the throat ? , and why train for years learning how to do it ? , thats something you could teach someone in a few lessons.
> 
> As for kicking the groin , yes if the opportunity presents itself we will kick it , but when someone advances towards you with evil intentions the first target he presents will be his knee and shins , kicking these targets is a lot faster and doesn't put the balance too much at risk.
> 
> ...




I totally agree.  The times I have used groin shots in altercations the end result was RARELY what one would expect....what I expected.  There is often times a delay or some guys just seem to tough the pain out and hold The Nuggets" after the fight.

Knee's, eyes, and shins?  In my experience using them, they worked much faster and with much more effect.  I have not been in a street fight since Wing Chun training and my experience regarding this post is prior to martial arts training and some with Karate/kickboxing training....well, dirty kickboxing anyways. :uhyeah:


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## mook jong man (Aug 31, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> I totally agree. The times I have used groin shots in altercations the end result was RARELY what one would expect....what I expected. There is often times a delay or some guys just seem to tough the pain out and hold The Nuggets" after the fight.
> 
> Knee's, eyes, and shins? In my experience using them, they worked much faster and with much more effect. I have not been in a street fight since Wing Chun training and my experience regarding this post is prior to martial arts training and some with Karate/kickboxing training....well, dirty kickboxing anyways. :uhyeah:


 
There is definitely a delay , It seems to take a few seconds to register at least with me anyway , and in that few seconds I could get quite a few punches out.

Also a low heel kick , particularly one aimed directly below the knee cap and slightly to the inside of the shin , well that is instant sharp , walking into the edge of a coffee table type pain.

It also stops the forward momentum of the attacker dead in their tracks and keeps them just out of their punching range.

Whereas a kick to the groin might fold them at the hips , but there can still be a great deal of momentum coming at you for you to absorb back into your stance.


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## cwk (Aug 31, 2010)

A heel or side kick to the liver is also a good stopper. I got punched here once, many moons ago, and it dropped me like a sack of ****. I had blood in my urine for about 2 days afterwards too.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




The best angle to kick is in and up under their bottom ribs on the right side of their body. The liver is actually protected by the rib cage for the most part but striking at this angle allows you to hit it.
if you get it right you'll know instantly as your opponent will go down hard with a funny look on his face, followed by a grimace.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2010)

cwk said:


> A heel or side kick to the liver is also a good stopper. I got punched here once, many moons ago, and it dropped me like a sack of ****. I had blood in my urine for about 2 days afterwards too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
It's the worst KO I know, it's truly horrible. It doesn't take much pressure either, a good slap even will do it.  I know several fighters that will target the liver shot, nasty!


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## BloodMoney (Aug 31, 2010)

profesormental said:


> Greetings.
> 
> To poke someone's eyes, smash their groin and strike a throat, you need no training or skill.



Unless you dont want to rely on luck, and want to consistently and effectively pull such maneuvers off during high stress situations, or if your opponents are bigger and stronger, or if you are fighting other trained fighters. Then yeah, like any technique I advocate actually practicing it


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## dungeonworks (Aug 31, 2010)

BloodMoney said:


> Unless you dont want to rely on luck, and want to consistently and effectively pull such maneuvers off during high stress situations, or if your opponents are bigger and stronger, or if you are fighting other trained fighters. Then yeah, like any technique I advocate actually practicing it



Practicing anything will make you better at it by default.  You don't have to be a Martial Arts expert to effectively wallop the nuts, eyes, or throat.  You touch any of them and you will get some effect, and untrained people can and do pull it off.


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## pmosiun1 (Aug 31, 2010)

Z-Man said:


> Ive been grappling for many years and wanted to share some experiences.  I was grappling a very high level striker and grappler.  He was just about to choke me out from behind, when I accidently poked him in the eye.  Of all the years I grappled that was the first time that happened.  This accidental poke in the eye totally incapacitated my training partner.  He had to stop grappling for about a minute, but thankfully he wasnt injured at all.
> 
> This opened my eyes (no pun intended) that sensitive nerve strikes to the eyes and groin are the great equalizer in a real fight.  Of course, Ive heard about this concept, but never experienced it first hand against a master martial artist.
> 
> ...



*A Tired Debate*​               I see some of you still don't understand the distinction. The                  street vs sport, BJJ has rules, grappling should include biting,                  hair pulling, etc, is a straw man. It's a tired and meaningless                  debate. Its also the excuse that every master of DEAD martial                  arts from the traditional schools uses to explain his arts non                  effectiveness in a full contact environment. So anyone seeking                  to use this argument should be wary.
               Let me be as clear as possible. I will borrow some of Dan Inosanto's                  terminology here, and yes Mr Inosanto is a Black Belt with the                  Machados, whom I consider some of the best GRAPPLING coaches in                  the world. (Try biting Rigan sometime, I worked it with him once                  and it sucks!). 
               You need to make a distinction between a "delivery system"                  and a sporting application of an art. As an example we will use                  a man I admire very much, Renzo Gracie. Renzo could see a bite,                  a foul tactic, a version of an armlock, from Silat, or White Crane,                  or Yellow Monkey Fever, etc etc, and probably be able to INTEGRATE                  and apply that move very quickly. Why? Because he already has                  such a strong base on the ground. He understands the positions,                  and he has a great delivery system. Compare that with say an Aikido                  stylist. He may see the same application for a bite, or a choke,                  etc, but never be able to effectively use it. Especially against                  a wrestler or another groundfighter. Why? Because he doesn't have                  that delivery system. 
               Mo Smith could see a punch or a kick or an elbow, from just about                  any striking art and probably apply it very quickly to his game.                  Why? Because he has a STRONG BASE in the delivery system of western                  boxing. Boxing has the body mechanics, footwork, timing, etc,                  that allow Mo to INTEGRATE those moves. 
               Randy Couture could see a sweep from say. . Judo, and probably                  use it right away. Why? Because he has a strong base in wrestling,                  and Greco. My main job at the SBG is to see that everyone that                  walks through the door develops that strong base in the delivery                  systems of stand up, clinch, and ground. Because they have a strong                  base in BJJ, Boxing, Wrestling, etc, DOES NOT therefore mean that                  they are "Sport Fighters". That's faulty logic and poor                  assumptions.In fact some SBG Instructors, including myself, spend                  a large percentage of time teaching law enforcement, and civilian                  self defense. Many drill daily using "foul tactics".                  It would be a HUGE mistake to assume that because they are very                  good at the delivery systems that they are not self defense orientated.                
               Without a strong base on the ground, on your feet, and in the                  clinch, you can attend every "streetfighting" seminar                  in the world. Study every grappling art in existence, and still                  never be much of a fighter. That's the problem with the JKD Concepts                  paradigm. Does that mean all JKD Concepts people are like that?                  Of course not. Some have taken the time, and the pain That's involved                  in earning that strong base. 
               I have people walk through my Gym door every week from out of                  town. They are here to take privates, and many aspire to be SBG                  Instructors. The first thing they do is roll on the mat, and most                  cannot hang with the white belts at my Gym, let alone the Blue                  or Purple belts. Then they box, and often they turn their back,                  reach out, fold under the pressure of being hit. It's just an                  environment they are not used to. They go away with a list of                  things to work on, a true knowledge of where their real skill                  level is, and hopefully a positive and productive experience.                  But, they do not go away with Instructors certificates.
               In a few cases I have looked online and seen that a Month or                  so later these same people have traveled to other JKD Instructors                  and become "certified" Instructors. I think That's fine.                  But That's not what the SBG is about. Even if someone says that                  the only goal they have is to teach beginners 'self-defense',                  they still must OWN a good BASE in stand up, Clinch, and Ground.                  That doesn't mean we are a SPORT Gym. It just means we have high                  standards. 
               Once that BASE is acquired, then an athlete can go on to integrate                  other moves, or ideas very easily. They will be able to put those                  moves into CONTEXT because they have a strong base of skill. Without                  that base people become lost in a classical mess very easily.                  Led astray very easily, because they just don't understand. A                  purple belt in BJJ who knows how to bite and gouge eyes is a COMPLETELY                  different beast from a "streetfighter" who bites and                  gouges eyes but doesn't have the base in that 'delivery system'.                  If you want to be a good fighter, and reach your own personal                  full potential, you MUST have that base. 
               Also, I do not dismiss the danger of blades. In fact I know just                  how dangerous they can be, and so does every other SBG Instructor.                  They part of the curriculum, and they are addressed. But, I am                  very wary of people who talk about cutting arteries, and stabbing                  people in the guard, etc. Many times (not always) these people                  tend to be the kids that got picked on in school, lack a certain                  sense of self esteem, etc. I believe that people like this can                  be greatly helped through SPORTS. Whether it's boxing, wrestling,                  BJJ, Judo, NHB, etc. This type of athletic event can help someone                  like this gain real self esteem. But too often, instead of going                  down that route they I see them being drawn into the "streetfighting/                  tactical" stuff. And I think this usually just increases                  there paranoia and fear, and eventually leads to anger. 
               This is why I think the sports paradigm is much healthier. The                  weaker members of our society are the ones that can use sports                  to improve their life the most. True self defense skills like                  awareness, maturity, lack of substance abuse, firearms, pepper                  spray,etc, can always be added. And should always be added. But                  the scared kids that get picked on are best helped through sports,                  and they are the ones I enjoy teaching the most because I have                  seen such a productive and great change that sports can bring                  to them. -Matt (Mono Loco) Thornton


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## pmosiun1 (Aug 31, 2010)

*The problems                  with a "streetfighter" mindset*​               I'd like to talk about the distinctions between an athletic training                  model and mindset, and a "streetfighting" model and                  mindset. And I do believe it's important for a number of reasons                  to make a certain distinction between the two. That distinction,                  and the reasons why it's a healthy one to make, are what this                  thread is about.
               Now before anyone uses this post or thread as an opportunity                  for personal insults; or a fallacious either or argument we need                  to be very, very clear as to the content of what's being discussed.                
               When we began talking about differences in approaches to anything                  there is potential for people to take such discussions on a personal                  level, due to lack of understanding regarding the conversation,                  or a previous personal agenda, etc. Nothing in the below written                  posts is personal, period.
                If you DON'T find the distinctions to be true in your own case                  then there is obviously no reason to view them as personal. And                  if you DO find that some of the ideas may hit close to home, then                  it's also a very positive thing, and a chance for learning. So                  in either case the ideas presented below should be seen as the                  laying out of a roadmap that is intended to bring positive results                  into peoples lives. But in either case nothing being written or                  spoken is about a specific persona, on any level. 
               Secondly, discussing different mentalities in training and life                  is never an either or proposition. Although that may seem obvious,                  many people have trouble with that concept so it's always best                  to lay it out front of the discussion. 
               When it comes to "street" training, combatives, or                  RBSD, there seems to exist a fallacious argument. The old street"                  versus "sport" training argument. The false premise                  being it must be one or the other, that the training methods are                  mutually exclusive. 
               This is not only an incorrect assumption; it also goes against                  the long and colorful history of American "combatives"                  or "self defense" Instructors, of previous eras. A brief                  look into their backgrounds, and minimum amount of research will                  tell the tale.
                In addition, anyone with even a minor bit of information about                  SBGi knows we offer many RBSD programs. Including programs for                  Law Enforcement, and including all possible "foul" tactics,                  and their functional counters. So again, to suggest anything written                  below paints ALL Instructors who teach RBSD in a particular light                  is simply not logical, nor factual.
               Finally, the politics and gossip of Martial Arts holds zero interest                  for me, or I think anyone in our Organization. But if you do have                  any personal issues, feel free to contact me direct, or in person.                  It's the approach I take, and the one that is always the most                  appropriate. As for discussions online, they should always be                  kept to training methods and ideas. Now there are two separate                  issues with reality based self defense. 
               The first is functionality. And as people will be theoretically                  relying on the information and training offered to save their                  life, or the lives of others, this point is critical. There are                  a ton myths offered when it comes to self defense and 'streetfighting'.                  Some of these seem harmless, and may be when it's simply two adolescents                  or grown men getting together to click sticks, or memorize patterns.                
               But when it comes to people who may actually need to use such                  information, police officers, etc, in order to be able to go home                  to their family safely at night, such misinformation, and perpetuation                  of myths can be deadly. So functionality in what is being taught                  is critical in RBSD.
               When it comes to weapons this was addressed to a degree in the                  previous posts here: 
               Regards the stick fighting, to actually be able to fight with                  a stick one would have to start by throwing out the majority of                  the "Kali" that is typically taught, and almost all                  the 'drills', which are little more then two man Kata which teach                  one what not to do. And even then, left with functional, powerful                  strikes, and realistic methods of defense, the ground will still                  often occur, and ko's will not always be easy. 
               As far as defending against a knife, again it can be, and is                  done. But one would have to throw out the majority of the "Kali"                  empty hand tapi-tapi type drills taught, and go to a control position                  such as offered by Karl in the STAB program, Jerry with the RedZone,                  and Burton's two on 1 baseball grip variations. 
               Coincidentally I had a conversation yesterday regarding a police                  officer who had been stabbed multiple times by large mental patient                  on a call a few days ago. Apparently the officer is ok, but he                  was surprised to relate that he didn't realize his opponent even                  had a knife until he had been stuck several times, because to                  him at that time it felt like 'a minor strike'. That seems to                  be fairly typical. It also has to be why they attack the way they                  do with a shank in prison. . .having realized this reality a LONG                  time ago. 
               On a positive note that department will now be working STAB with                  Paul Sharp.
               In Jerry Wetzel's Red Zone video there is a great section where                  Jerry's wife, who is a practicing MD, goes into detail regarding                  the bodies actual process for going into shock. And much of the                  mythology of knife fighting is cleared up there as well. I'd highly                  recommend that video for anyone serious on this subject.
               Another good example that clearly demonstrates these ideas are                  written in our street vs sports section here, on the website.
               "One happened about a year ago, I'm walking up to a father/son                  domestic when the son steps out onto the porch where dad is sitting                  on the stoop and hits dad full tilt with a golf club dead on in                  the throat. Dad does a weird squeal and jumps up, pulls knife                  and goes after the kid. 
               What was that acronym about throat-eyes-solar plexus-nads-knees?                
               Somebody should have told those guy's when you get hit in a pressure                  point you go down no questions asked...."
               There are many first hand experienced related such as this, elsewhere                  on our website.
               So it's obvious that there is a lot of mythology when it comes                  to RBSD, particularly (but not exclusive to) the JKD family. And                  although it may seem harmless enough, when it comes to serious                  issues, such as Law Enforcement or personal self defense, it's                  anything but harmless.
               However, there is another, deeper, issue I would like to talk                  about that I feel is even more important when it comes to this                  subject. 
               The most important point in my opinion is the mind set that exists                  behind the eyes of someone who finds themselves attracted to the                  entire "streetfighting", biting, killer instinct, paradigm                  that exists, and is marketed to with some instructors. If one                  looks honestly at it then it becomes pretty obvious that it is                  really about fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt.
               What does that statement mean? 
               It's very simple. If you market yourself, your school, or your                  products as a "streetfighting" system, then a certain                  group of individuals will find themselves drawn to that product                  for a variety of reasons. Many of which are unhealthy. 
               Does that sentence mean all Instructors who teach such things                  are filled with fear, paranoia, insecurity, and personal guilt!?
               Of course not.
               Does that mean that ALL RBSD schools cater to such cliental?
               Of course not.
               Does that mean everyone drawn to such marketing is similar to                  the people described above?
               Of course not.
               Let me insert a section of an article by me that was written                  for realfighting.com on this very subject that I believe explains                  what the above sentence means very clearly.
               (Psychological fear is a completely different animal, and sadly                  it is incredibly common within the "combatives", or                  modern self-defense crowds. Psychological fear is actually a form                  of paranoia, and it's created by one's internal fears of inadequacy                  on either a physical, emotional, or mental level. 
               When a male (in particular) thinks himself to be inadequate there                  is a strong feeling of sadness and anger. And just as aggression                  is the other side of the same coin as fear, sadness is the other                  side of the same coin as anger. If one doesn't address this internal                  sadness in a very real way then it will often manifest itself                  in the form of anger. I think as males we are more prone to adopt                  and embrace the anger, at least within our public persona, as                  opposed to the sadness, because for some misguided reason we have                  been taught that anger is more "masculine" then it's                  equal, sadness. 
               One would think that by training in "street" orientated                  martial arts, or combatives that emphasize the self defense aspects                  of martial arts, to the exclusion of what they deem to be "sports"                  training, that these types of individuals would gain more confidence,                  more peace, more happiness, and become more comfortable within                  them as their skills at 'self-defense' grew. Unfortunately, it                  has been my experience that the opposite seems to be true. Individuals                  that come to strictly "street" orientated martial arts,                  that were already prone to feelings of inadequacy, shame, physiological                  fear, and paranoia tend to have those qualities magnified by such                  training, rather then eased. 
               I wouldn't ask anyone to take my word for it with that assessment.                  Instead I would suggest one visit the nearest "mercenary"                  convention, combatives or "street" martial arts forums,                  or speak with these individuals in person. This sadness, anger,                  and immense fear is palpable when you are forced to spend anytime                  around these types of individuals. Try reading the posts at the                  "street" forums. Many tend to read like angry notes                  from disgruntled 13-year-old boys. There is talk of "tearing                  out the mo-fo's eyes", biting, and various vicious things                  that can be done to the attackers. The posts speak to an intense                  anger and fear in the writers, and sadly, the Instructors of such                  curriculums cater to this need by exploiting their target audiences                  obvious weakness, and emotional frailty. 
               These same people could begin to realize a much deeper sense                  of peace, well being, and level of personal safety if they were                  instead steered away from the geeky-ness of the combatives crowd                  and into a more contact orientated, healthy, and sane sports environment,                  with "alive-arts" such as boxing, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu,                  wrestling, Muay thai, judo, and other "sports" systems.                  In that type of "alive-training" they will not only                  gain real skill within a particular delivery system of fighting,                  they will also achieve a higher level of personal conditioning,                  become used to a higher level of contact, understand exactly what                  an aggressive, resisting attacker feels like, and learn to perform                  under a certain amount of stress. They will also gain a real sense                  of peace that comes with understanding how to actually move the                  human body in effective ways against aggressive and dangerous                  attackers.) 
               Now, does that above set of paragraphs mean that Matt Thornton                  is saying ALL RBSD Instructors are doing a disservice? 
                No, of course not.
               Does that above set of paragraphs mean that Matt Thornton doesn't                  believe that "When your life is in jeopardy most tend to                  resort to the foul tactics if it determines life or death or just                  plain survival." .
               Of course not! 
               As stated above we have a heavy curriculum of RBSD, and LE training                  within our own organization. Which covers the gamut of all 'foul'                  tactics, as well as their counters. And as stated at the top of                  this thread, when it comes to real life self defense, FUNCTIONALITY                  is more important to us then anything else. Anyone who has attended                  any of the self defense training courses, or Law Enforcement program                  can testify to the functional nature, and mandatory testing of                  all our tactics, techniques, and delivery systems. It's not open                  to speculation.
               So what's the point of bringing this subject up? 
               Simple, because I have found that the same types of people who                  (may often) be drawn to more violent, "streetfighting"                  type images, will actually make great leaps in personal development                  and well being when they switch to a healthier athletic format,                  and simply let go of the whole 'killer' instinct, bite, kill 'image/mentality'.                
               I remember a seminar Years ago where Rickson Gracie was asked                  this exact same thing about eye gouging and the "street".                  He related that although he had to fight in the street and defend                  himself many times as he was growing up in Brazil, that even thinking                  about gouging peoples eyeballs, or biting them, is not something                  he would ever want to start doing. The thought itself is unhealthy                  to a human, and Jiu-Jitsu is supposed to be about health and well                  being. 
               I couldn't agree more.
               I am also sometimes asked by RBSD Instructors why we don't place                  a heavy emphasis on advertising the "streetfighting",                  or RBSD aspects of what we do, if in deed we do train this way                  at our Gyms. (The fact that we do train for self defense becomes                  self evident to anyone who ever trains at any of our Gyms) . The                  answer is we do market that way when it's appropriate, but we                  choose not to emphasize that aspect to the public at large for                  the reasons listed in this article. 
               The athletic mentality, method, and mindset, is HEALTHIER for                  all human beings. And it's also more functional on a very practical                  level. It's healthier for adults, it's better for children, and                  it's just better for human beings in general. 
                Especially in terms of mental well being. 
               And this is why we steer people into that area whenever possible.                
               Cheers. - Matt Thornton


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## BloodMoney (Aug 31, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> Practicing anything will make you better at it by default.



Yeah thats kinda my point.



dungeonworks said:


> -and untrained people can and do pull it off.



But not as good as trained people. Which is kinda my point.

I think people forget that punching someone in the throat and punching someone in the face are really the same thing: a punch. So those that say theres no point to training to punch to the throat are basically saying theres no point to training the accuracy of your punch. Which I completely disagree with.

Kicking to the groin is the same. Its harder to kick someone in the groin than it is to kick the shin of their forward leg, yet we Chunners practice the mid heel kick a lot. Any thug can kick you in the shin, so whats the point of training? That argument just doesnt work for me. I train to be better at striking the sensitive center line of my opponent, its that simple. The more you train the more accurate you get. Any noob can throw a punch yes, but not all of them can consistently punch many times a second and accurately strike the adams apple, while not taking any incoming hits.


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2010)

BloodMoney said:


> Yeah thats kinda my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
That is an extremely good point , its a bit like saying because I can cook scrambled eggs that I'm in the same league as cooking like Gordon Ramsay.

Anybody can throw a punch , a kick  , or strike someones neck with the edge of your Tan Sau.

But to fully utilise your body mass and transmit it into the target , with no wasted movement along with all the speed developed from years of practice , that requires a great deal of dedication and proper training.

Getting a Tan Sau in the throat is not going to feel the same as getting it from a novice as it is compared to say someone who has been practicing Bil Gee for a few years and can send a fully concentrated force out through their fingertips.

Like wise with a kick I can take a very big athletic guy off the street teach him the stance , teach him the low heel kick in five minutes.

Even though he maybe bigger and more athletic than me his kick will not have the same power and penetration as mine because I have learnt to apply my stance when executing a strike so that most of my body mass goes into the strike and is not wasted in other directions.


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## Poor Uke (Sep 1, 2010)

[**shivers at memory of liver being hit**]

As mentioned this is an old debate. Personally i have been poked in the eye whilst sparring and managed to continue. Have also had a few kicks to the groin (which incidentally are pretty easy to aviod) with only once being incapacited enough to stop sparring (balls of steel  ).

I do think though that a good shot to the Adam's apple and its game over, unless you are a serious nutcase, in which case you were alway dooooomed.

Alot of people say that such strikes are low percentage shots....mmmm maybe.


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 1, 2010)

Okay let's put some perspective on this...

Grappling when done in practice is usually playing under some kind of rules. If it didnt, training partners would soon disappear through injury or not wanting to train. Yet most grapplers know how to incapacitate an opponent and prevent 'cheap shots'. Certainly many of the grapplers I have trained with are very knowledgable of dangers and gaps. 

Of course if someone tried to a technique that was cumbersome or long winded, it would certainly allow opponents time to try something dirty 

But if you asked a BJJ blue belt or above to go at you, no holes barred, they would make it very difficult for their opponents to come up with pokes to the eyes etc

In the same veign it is like doing a drill slowly with a beginner and they catch you with a fast hit or something. In reality you wouldnt even allow the hit to get close, but for the sake of training you can't just go bereserk on your opponent

There is a distinction in MMA/cagefighting between sport and reality. The punishment that MMA guys go through is very similar to that in a street confrontation, but there is still a major difference

In the street, your opponent can do ANYTHING. Even an unskilled opponent can catch you out no matter how good you are. The point is that an MMA guy will often use common sense in a real fight (what works and what doesnt). They can be just as dirty if needbe 

Wing chun certainly does go for weak areas (as opposed to using blunt force trauma to get the job done), yet I wouldnt agree that it specializes in this. Other arts do it just as well  karate, mantis and tiger crane kung fu, etc

My advice to most grapplers is to look at striking arts because if you are hitting your opponent whilst in a clinch, they arent going to be looking for a cheap shot lol


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## BloodMoney (Sep 1, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> Getting a Tan Sau in the throat is not going to feel the same as getting it from a novice as it is compared to say someone who has been practicing Bil Gee for a few years and can send a fully concentrated force out through their fingertips.
> 
> Like wise with a kick I can take a very big athletic guy off the street teach him the stance , teach him the low heel kick in five minutes.
> 
> Even though he maybe bigger and more athletic than me his kick will not have the same power and penetration as mine because I have learnt to apply my stance when executing a strike so that most of my body mass goes into the strike and is not wasted in other directions.



Yep spot on, absolutely agreed



Kamon Guy said:


> Okay let's put some perspective on this...
> 
> Grappling when done in practice is usually playing under some kind of rules. If it didnt, training partners would soon disappear through injury or not wanting to train. Yet most grapplers know how to incapacitate an opponent and prevent 'cheap shots'. Certainly many of the grapplers I have trained with are very knowledgable of dangers and gaps.



Yup thats a good point actually, and while I agree I think not all grapplers are like that, many only drill sport stuff and actually have little or no idea what to do if someone sticks their thumb up their **** to counter a triangle choke  In a perfect world all grappling instructors would add a little "but on the street someone could do this" disclaimer, but ive found very few do (esp in BJJ). Many boxers train to fight southpaws, but still have trouble when they come up against one, as its unfamiliar. A grappler might know the gaps and dangers, but when one happens it could still be unfamiliar to him and catch him out. Thats the importance of drilling what you want to use. I hear heaps of people say "well we drill this but on the street id do it different" and im like "well why dont you just drill it that way?" Your teaching your body and muscle memory how to act, so if you just roll sports BJJ all the time guess what, it will become ingrained in you and you will instinctively act the way you have conditioned yourself to act.

So yeah, in my opinion there are exactly 31 differences between Wing Chun and MMA 



> UFC Rules
> 
> 1.   Butting with the head.
> 2.   Eye gouging of any kind.
> ...


Without being able to do number 22 I literally dont know if I would be alive today


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## Steve (Sep 1, 2010)

How do you guys train those 31 things?


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## geezer (Sep 1, 2010)

pmosiun1 said:


> * Psychological fear is actually a form of paranoia, and it's created by one's internal fears of inadequacy on either a physical, emotional, or mental level. When a male (in particular) thinks himself to be inadequate there is a strong feeling of sadness and anger.   *​


*

Man! With my A.D.D. tendencies having to wade through a post this long, dense, and single spaced... causes me to experience a sensation of inadequacy leading to a strong feeling of... dang! what was I saying? 

Anyway I think you have a point. But athleticism is only part of the picture. I'm currently a good deal more "athletic" than my instructor, but he can mop the floor with me. And when you say a base in stand-up, clinch, and ground, I assume you don't mean the same kind of "base" for everybody. For example, some people think that all stand-up should be based on boxing or Muay Thai type movements. A WC/WT/VT base is a very different animal... but it works very well! That said, it's great to have your input and experience presented here, Matt.*​


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## mook jong man (Sep 2, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> How do you guys train those 31 things?


 
I don't train all of those things , but quite a few of them we do.

Head Butt - we practice head butts with head gear on each other , and on a heavy bag on the floor.
Eye Gouging - If we are just practicing flicks to the eyeballs we use eye protection , mainly we use them as a facial control to force the head back out of alignment with the spine to aid in take down , in that case we just use slow controlled pressure into the eye sockets and under the nose.
Biting - We use that in a chain of techniques such as eye gouging , ear ripping , we just bite enough so that it pinches the skin through the clothing , one has to avoid getting blood in the mouth with the risk of blood borne diseases.
Hair Pulling - Not so much , these days with short hairstyles you can't always depend on hair being there , but I have been known to take people down to the floor from Chi Sau by piercing through with my Tan Sau and grabbing the back of their hair and pulling them down to the floor as a take down.
Fishhooking - Don't do that , don't want to put my hands in someones mouth.
Groin attacks - We put a groin protector on that I have reinforced with a lot more extra padding than it was originally designed for . We practice controlled striking on that.
 9. Striking the spine or back of the head - We use a controlled Fook sau that we drop down on the upper back for training , but in reality it would be at the base of the skull , we also practice the strike on a kick shield.

10. Striking down using point of elbow - we practice that with control on each other , and also with one person squatting down with a kick shield on the shoulder and partner striking down  with elbow strike to simulate tackle attempt. On the ground we practice it on  heavy bag on the floor.

11. Throat strikes - we practice with control on each other from Chi sau , pulling the strike short or making contact with slow control and use power on focus mitts or wooden dummy if available , if on the ground using something like a C- grip we just squeeze the throat with great control until the person taps

12. Clawing ,pinching or twisting flesh - pinching or twisting flesh we just take it to the point where the person taps , usually on the torso like love handles and rib cage or back of thigh.

13. Kicking , kneeing , stomping opponent - we will simulate this on the partner pulling the strike short , for power we will use a kick shield or the very useful heavy bag on the floor , its usually a couple of chain punches from a knee ride position then disengage from the floor bag with a stamp kick to the chest area .

These are pretty much most of the things we work on in our ground fighting , while we cannot simulate things 100 percent we go as close as we can to realistic training without injuring each other .


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## BloodMoney (Sep 14, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> How do you guys train those 31 things?



Very carefully 

Seriously though, yes we do, see Mook Jong Man's post above, cause we basically do the exact same.



mook jong man said:


> Also a low heel kick , particularly one aimed directly below the knee cap and slightly to the inside of the shin , well that is instant sharp , *walking into the edge of a coffee table type pain.*



that cracked me up because thats literally the _exact_ same analogy ive been using for years to describe low heel kicks. Awesome.


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