# WTF - Kukkiwon Certificates



## Bushido Spirit

I am at a loss...
My TKD Instructor has let me down.
He has shown his true colors and after 3 yrs. I have moved on.

My question is this.
Is it possible to verify Kukkiwon/WTF credentials through a Kukkiwon number as opposed to a name?
I have searched the Kukkiwon data base and come up with nothing...but a friend sent me a number form "Grandmaster Chun Im" Dan certificate, which I believe to be bogus...

Can someone help?

The Number on his Certificate is 5056783


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## msmitht

Bogus. I have a 5th dan cert and it has 8 numbers as do all kkw#.


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## Bushido Spirit

I have certainly had my suspicions...


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## Archtkd

Bushido Spirit said:


> I am at a loss...
> My TKD Instructor has let me down.
> He has shown his true colors and after 3 yrs. I have moved on.
> 
> My question is this.
> Is it possible to verify Kukkiwon/WTF credentials through a Kukkiwon number as opposed to a name?
> I have searched the Kukkiwon data base and come up with nothing...but a friend sent me a number form "Grandmaster Chun Im" Dan certificate, which I believe to be bogus...
> 
> Can someone help?
> 
> The Number on his Certificate is 5056783



What is a number form? Did the teacher specifically tell you he was Kukkiwon certified? If you have his exact name as appears on his certificate, date of birth and nationality key it here:

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp.  

If his name does not show up, there's a high likelihood he is not certified. Is this the same man who taught Gumdo and Taichi in Canada, and was the subject of an alert on another martial arts Internet forum in 2006?


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## d1jinx

msmitht said:


> Bogus. I have a 5th dan cert and it has 8 numbers as do all kkw#.


 
its missing the 0 on the front.  thats 8.  could be legit.  

BUSHIDO SPIRIT:

need date of birth and nationailty of person.  get those.  I can look.


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## andyjeffries

d1jinx said:


> need date of birth and nationailty of person.  get those.  I can look.



Get those and anyone can look 

http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp


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## d1jinx

andyjeffries said:


> Get those and anyone can look
> 
> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/new_examination/new_english/pop.jsp



Problem is, they tried that and couldn't find it but they have the number.  the name could be anything from first middle last, first middle initial last, first last, first middle (DOT) last, first middle last JR/SR, etc etc etc.  And without knowing exactly how it is it can be a goose chase.  They tried the name and got no results.  Doesn't mean it isn't legit.  I couldn't find mine in the system when I first found the link (some years ago) because i didn't notice the (.) after the initial.

I guess worse case, email KKW and ask to verify the number.  just tell them you are concerned if they are actually KKW certified.


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## terryl965

They KKW will be happy to help if you e-mail or call them. It is always sad when you have to worry about an instructor being what they claim to be.


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## Archtkd

d1jinx said:


> its missing the 0 on the front. thats 8. could be legit.
> 
> BUSHIDO SPIRIT:
> 
> need date of birth and nationailty of person. get those. I can look.


 
The old certs didn't have a zero. My 1st Dan issued in 1983 didn't have one by all subsequent certs to 4th Dan have a zero in front of the original number.


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## puunui

msmitht said:


> Bogus. I have a 5th dan cert and it has 8 numbers as do all kkw#.




You don't have any Kukkiwon dan certificates with 7 digits on it?


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## puunui

Archtkd said:


> The old certs didn't have a zero. My 1st Dan issued in 1983 didn't have one by all subsequent certs to 4th Dan have a zero in front of the original number.




The current numbering system was put into place in 1985 I believe.


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## Bushido Spirit

How can I be sure, short of calling the Kukkiwon? 
I have emailed the WTF and the Kukkiwon and received no replies.


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> How can I be sure, short of calling the Kukkiwon?
> I have emailed the WTF and the Kukkiwon and received no replies.



Tell your friend who gave you his number to check the certificate again and give you the exact spelling of his name, the nationality listed, as well as his birthdate. If you have that 
information, you can check online.


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## Bushido Spirit

i will try, but hid name is in Hangul.


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> i will try, but hid name is in Hangul.



If his name is in hangul on the certificate, then it isn't a Kukkiwon certificate. His name should be typed in english, unless it is a certificate from the 1970's, which I don't think it is, given the Kukkiwon number you gave.


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> i will try, but hid name is in Hangul.



If his name is in hangul on the certificate, then it isn't a Kukkiwon certificate. His name should be typed in english, unless it is a certificate from the 1970's, which I don't think it is, given the Kukkiwon number you gave.


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## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> If his name is in hangul on the certificate, then it isn't a Kukkiwon certificate. His name should be typed in english, unless it is a certificate from the 1970's, which I don't think it is, given the Kukkiwon number you gave.



Are you sure?  The images that appeared on Mookas (that we were discussing as early prototypes whereas it seems they are actually the finished design and some people received early prototypes) show an example with the name in Hangul.

Also, surely if someone fills the Kukkiwon application form in using Hangul, the Kukkiwon wouldn't romanise it to English as different people romanise the same name differently. The surname &#51060; is an obvious example.


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## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> Are you sure?



Yes. 




andyjeffries said:


> The images that appeared on Mookas (that we were discussing as early prototypes whereas it seems they are actually the finished design and some people received early prototypes) show an example with the name in Hangul.



Those were prototype certificates, not actual certificates. But if you look closely, there is the name in english in addition to Korean hangul. Also, those look like ones that would be issued to Koreans living in Korea, because it has the KTA president's name on it as well. 




andyjeffries said:


> Also, surely if someone fills the Kukkiwon application form in using Hangul, the Kukkiwon wouldn't romanise it to English as different people romanise the same name differently. The surname &#51060; is an obvious example.



They wouldn't fill the application out in hangul. Even if he did fill it out in hangul, his record would be in english, since prior to these new mookas certificates coming out, the certificates were in english. Also, the number he gave, the seven digit one, was from a while ago, he wouldn't have been promoted recently. If he had, it would have an eight digit number on it.


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## Bushido Spirit

Update...
I have traced, through various sources, his TKD involvement.
4th Dan from Korean Special Forces...back in the 70's.
His Certification past then is sketchy, vague, and.... lies.

I'd like to fill you all in on the "whys" ...

I began studying with him 3 years ago. I have much training in several MA's but wanted to learn some traditional TKD.

He taught me and tested me to 1st geup and then ...kinda stopped teaching me.

I learned Poomse Korryo through a DVD, showed him, and received my Cho Dan.

....this is really a long story_,_ but I'll be brief.

I signed a contract to learn WTF TKD and find that he's not even accredited to teach WTF TKD,I've paid him for Kukkiwon certificates and never received them, been used to teach a very unruly class of "tiny Tigers", still not learning anything else...

Sorry...I am ranting and need to stop.

Anyway...I am now suing him for every dime I have ever paid him.


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## Archtkd

Archtkd said:


> The old certs didn't have a zero. My 1st Dan issued in 1983 didn't have one but all subsequent certs to 4th Dan have a zero in front of the original number.


 
Sorry, I meant to say 1993.


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> I learned Poomse Korryo through a DVD, showed him, and received my Cho Dan.




Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank? 

Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.


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## d1jinx

Bushido Spirit said:


> Update...
> I have traced, through various sources, his TKD involvement.
> 4th Dan from Korean Special Forces...back in the 70's.
> His Certification past then is sketchy, vague, and.... lies.
> 
> I'd like to fill you all in on the "whys" ...
> 
> I began studying with him 3 years ago. I have much training in several MA's but wanted to learn some traditional TKD.
> 
> He taught me and tested me to 1st geup and then ...kinda stopped teaching me.
> 
> I learned Poomse Korryo through a DVD, showed him, and received my Cho Dan.
> 
> ....this is really a long story_,_ but I'll be brief.
> 
> I signed a contract to learn WTF TKD and find that he's not even accredited to teach WTF TKD,I've paid him for Kukkiwon certificates and never received them, been used to teach a very unruly class of "tiny Tigers", still not learning anything else...
> 
> Sorry...I am ranting and need to stop.
> 
> Anyway...I am now suing him for every dime I have ever paid him.


 

I see you're in texas. where? a few here from texas. chances are 1 of us might know who you speak of. name, or If the school has a link plop it in. or PM it.  *very similiar* thing happened to me when i first moved to texas... even though i was already a BB, the rest of the story is the same.  never know... might be the same guy.


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## troubleenuf

Why not?   An instructor is just like any other business man.  If they do not produce what they promise to produce then they are libel and open to a lawsuit just like any other businessman. They should be held accountable.  If more were held accountable you would see less abuse.  I have encouraged people in my area to sue the instructor who is either "holding" the certificate they earned and paid for or have failed to apply for it.  And they win hands down.  Why?  Because its AGAINST THE LAW!  It dosnt matter if you call yourself a "master" or you put yourself up on a pedestal.  If you are doing something illegal you should be held accountable by the law regardless of who you think you are or who others think they are.  




puunui said:


> Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank?
> 
> Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.


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## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> Why not?   An instructor is just like any other business man.




Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.


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## troubleenuf

Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor... which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.



puunui said:


> Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.


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## miguksaram

troubleenuf said:


> Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor... which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.


What judgment?  He said personally he would not sue his instructors.  He did not say if you sue your instructor you are an awful person.


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## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> Or in other words you have not been taken advantage of by an instructor...



In other words, I choose my instructors with care and if something goes wrong, I don't blame other people for my situation. In my opinion, the choice of instructor is one of the most important decisions that you make on the martial arts journey. 




troubleenuf said:


> which is good but should leave you to lay judgement on those who have.



I didn't lay judgment.


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## Archtkd

puunui said:


> Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.


 
I must admit I never fully grasped this concept until you gave the analogy of the sushi restaurant guy in Kill Bill 2, in another thread. It spurred me me to re-evaluate the relationships I've had with many masters and my own students.


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## troubleenuf

Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure.  I would do anything for him and did.  I treated him with the utmost respect.  Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me.  He had  been using me as his fall guy for years.  
  So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet.  Hopefully you wont ever.  But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.



puunui said:


> Why not? Mainly because I do not see myself as a customer and my instructors as a business providing a service. We have a different basis for our relationship. I will say that some of my instructors do have "customers", and they are treated differently than the way I am treated. If you see your instructor as a businessman and yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised if your instructor acts like a businessman and you are treated like a customer.


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## Archtkd

troubleenuf said:


> Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure. I would do anything for him and did. I treated him with the utmost respect. Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me. He had been using me as his fall guy for years.
> So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet. Hopefully you wont ever. But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.


 
That's terrible. It's interesting the instructor sat down with you to admit he lied to you.


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## troubleenuf

I think he realized that I was "opening my eyes" and coming to the realization of what he was doing to me.  So it was easier to just tell me the truth and get rid of me so he could move on and do the same to someone else.  It was truly one of the worst days of my life.  When I walked in the door at home my wife thought someone had died I was so pale and shaken up.  But you know what... I have found that it was the best thing that could have happened to me.  I went out on my own.  Continued my training and teaching and vowed that my students would never have to go through the same thing.  I have learned way more on my own than I ever did while I was with him.  So in the end, he was the looser, I won.



Archtkd said:


> That's terrible. It's interesting the instructor sat down with you to admit he lied to you.


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## puunui

troubleenuf said:


> Actually for 18 years I thought of my instructor as a father figure.  I would do anything for him and did.  I treated him with the utmost respect.  Only to have him sit down with me one day and tell me that everything he had been telling me had been a lie and he had no intention of fulfilling his promises to me.  He had  been using me as his fall guy for years.



Sorry to hear about that. None of my instructors have ever done that to me. 




troubleenuf said:


> So like I said, you haven't been mistreated yet.  Hopefully you wont ever.  But that dosnt mean you shouldn't evaluate your relationship based upon business first because thats may be how your instructor is evaluating it even if you dont.



You don't know whether or not I have been mistreated. If I were or was, I certainly wouldn't be speaking about it over the internet. That to me is a big red flag, publicly speaking ill of your instructor, in much the same way that it is a big red flag to publicly speak ill of your parents. I have written about situations in which I thought I had been abused, only to learn later that what was done to me was a gift that few other students received. I have been fortunate in the instructors that I have been able to develop relationships with over the years, no question about it.


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## puunui

Archtkd said:


> I must admit I never fully grasped this concept until you gave the analogy of the sushi restaurant guy in Kill Bill 2, in another thread. It spurred me me to re-evaluate the relationships I've had with many masters and my own students.



Kill Bill 1 was Hattori Hanzo. Kill Bill 2 was White Eyebrow. Both gave great lessons. Those are perfect examples of the kinds of teachers I like to learn from. 

When I listen or read about the complaints that people have regarding their instructors, it is like someone complaining about the service they received at a restaurant. The customer is always right, he was rude to me, he overcharged me, I had to wait to long for service, these are the statements that you make on a yelp review.


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## Archtkd

puunui said:


> Kill Bill 1 was Hattori Hanzo. Kill Bill 2 was White Eyebrow. Both gave great lessons. Those are perfect examples of the kinds of teachers I like to learn from.
> 
> When I listen or read about the complaints that people have regarding their instructors, it is like someone complaining about the service they received at a restaurant. The customer is always right, he was rude to me, he overcharged me, I had to wait to long for service, these are the statements that you make on a yelp review.



Hattori Hanzo is the one I was referring to so it must be Kill Bill 1. The sushi shop that had the sword operation upstairs.


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## Bushido Spirit

puunui said:


> Kukkiwon uses the term il dan, not chodan for 1st Dan. But if you are suing him for your 1st Dan, why does your profile state samdan (3rd Dan) as your rank?
> 
> Personally, I would never sue any of my instructors, no matter what I thought they did to me.



I have a third dan in Goju ryu and when filling out my profile, I kinda got off track.

As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned.  But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned.  But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...




I wouldn't have asked for the $400 back....


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## puunui

Archtkd said:


> Hattori Hanzo is the one I was referring to so it must be Kill Bill 1. The sushi shop that had the sword operation upstairs.




these scenes:











I think people think they want to learn martial arts, when in fact what they are looking for is sushi.


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## Bushido Spirit

puunui said:


> I wouldn't have asked for the $400 back....



So you'd freely give your Instructor $400 for something he promised in return, and then when you didn't get what you paid for, you'd just call it a loss???

And what if you found out that your instructor had illegally manipulated your contract to charge you more than you originally agreed to pay? Would you just say, "well that's ok too"? How about just give him all of your money? No questions asked...

Sounds like a good candidate for a cult follower. 

See, when I spend money for something, I expect to receive what I spent it on.


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## puunui

Bushido Spirit said:


> So you'd freely give your Instructor $400 for something he promised in return, and then when you didn't get what you paid for, you'd just call it a loss???



I probably wouldn't have joined the school in the first place. But I have eaten big bills before. For example, in Las Vegas or Cripple Creek (Colorado), I've loaned friends and seniors more than $400 at the tables, which they never paid back. I also ended up picking up the tab for last night's mother's day dinner, for three mothers (one of which was mine), which was more than $400. 




Bushido Spirit said:


> And what if you found out that your instructor had illegally manipulated your contract to charge you more than you originally agreed to pay? Would you just say, "well that's ok too"? How about just give him all of your money? No questions asked... Sounds like a good candidate for a cult follower.



Again, that might be a logical conclusion, that I am a cult follower, if I had actually joined the school you are talking about. What conclusions would you draw if I never joined the school in the first place, thus avoiding all of the things that you are presently going through? None of my teachers ever had contracts, at least not the type that you are talking about. 




Bushido Spirit said:


> See, when I spend money for something, I expect to receive what I spent it on.



Spoken like a true customer.


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## Archtkd

Bushido Spirit said:


> I have a third dan in Goju ryu and when filling out my profile, I kinda got off track.
> 
> As for not suing an instructor...I initially only asked that he give me money back that he took under false pretenses, ($400), we'd go our separate ways, and call it a life-lesson learned.  But he has cursed me, threatened me, and told me he would not let me out of my bogus contract, (another story all-together). So, I suppose you might need to know the entire story prior to saying "never"...



I don't want to probe too much, but I was wondering what a 3rd Dan in Goju Ryu was trying to get from a Taekwondo master that cost $400? What exactly where  you trying to buy and why did it  require a contract?


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## Bushido Spirit

Archtkd said:


> I don't want to probe too much, but I was wondering what a 3rd Dan in Goju Ryu was trying to get from a Taekwondo master that cost $400? What exactly where  you trying to buy and why did it  require a contract?



I received my Goju-ryu rank many yrs ago and have since, studied other disciplines and styles. At the time, (with the TKD school), I was studying WTF TKD. To broaden my knowledge, so to speak.

The instructor ranked me as 1st Degree BB and asked for $400 to apply for Kukkiwon Certification.

I have since found out, that he doesn't even have the credentials to apply me to the Kukkiwon, which is why I asked him for my money back.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Archtkd said:


> I don't want to probe too much, but I was wondering what a 3rd Dan in Goju Ryu was trying to get from a Taekwondo master that cost $400? What exactly where you trying to buy and why did it require a contract?


The four hundred dollars was probably the cost of the first dan test for which he has not received a KKW cert.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan

Bushido Spirit said:


> So you'd freely give your Instructor $400 for something he promised in return, and then when you didn't get what you paid for, you'd just call it a loss???
> 
> And what if you found out that your instructor had illegally manipulated your contract to charge you more than you originally agreed to pay? Would you just say, "well that's ok too"? How about just give him all of your money? No questions asked...
> 
> Sounds like a good candidate for a cult follower.
> 
> See, when I spend money for something, I expect to receive what I spent it on.


You may view it a matter of principle, but chances are, suing him for the money you've paid will cost you more than the money you've paid.

One question that I have for you is this: what was the nature of the training that you received up to first geub?  How does what you saw in the classes you attended compare with what you see in other dojangs/dojos that you perceive as legit?  

Another question is what you mean when you say that he has no accredidation to instruct the Kukkiwon curriculum?  Further back, you said that he was a fourth dan from the ROK special forces.  Chances are that his fourth dan was issued by the Kukkiwon (if anyone knows better on this, please comment).  If he holds a Kukkiwon fourth dan, then he is not only accredited, but is capable of filing dan applications up through third dan.

In any case, there is nothing magical or mystical about the Kukkiwon curriculum and learning WTF sparring in a basic sense is not all that hard.  If the man had the skills and taught you those skills along with Taegeuk pumse and sparring under the WTF rule set (which are not, so far as I know, protected in the way that the Songahm system is), then it would seem that the only loose end is the Kukkiwon cert that you should have received.

At this point, it will probably be more bother than worth to get back the four hundred bucks, though again, that is a decision that you will have to make.

Daniel


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Further back, you said that he was a fourth dan from the ROK special forces.  Chances are that his fourth dan was issued by the Kukkiwon (if anyone knows better on this, please comment).



Depends on when the instructor in question received his promotion. It could have been an ITF certificate, a Kwan certificate like Kuk Mu Kwan or Oh Do Kwan, a KTA or Kukkiwon certificate. We need more information.


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## Brian R. VanCise

If you take him to small claims court and he failed to fulfill his end of the bargain it would probably not cost you very much and you would more than likely win and get your $400 back.


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## dortiz

Thanks to Master Miles helping me find the spot on their site I received my sons certificates directly from the kukkiwon  : )


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## d1jinx

dortiz said:


> Thanks to Master Miles helping me find the spot on their site I received my sons certificates directly from the kukkiwon : )


 

hahahaha.  good deal.

just outta curiousity, was it dated close to the testing date?


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## dortiz

Yikes, I would have to remember when that was but off the top of my head it looks close. I think the Teacher did order it right away. He just holds them.
More impressive is that going direct with the Kukkiwon and by snail mail both ways I had documents in hand after 2 weeks.
If anyone is having delays its certainly not due to the Kukkiwon.


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## andyjeffries

dortiz said:


> Yikes, I would have to remember when that was but off the top of my head it looks close. I think the Teacher did order it right away. He just holds them.
> More impressive is that going direct with the Kukkiwon and by snail mail both ways I had documents in hand after 2 weeks.
> If anyone is having delays its certainly not due to the Kukkiwon.



You're absolutely right...

I got promoted in December and snail mailed the application form in and had my certificate by early February.  One of our students graded with the national association and it took 13 months to get the certificate back (with the excuse it was the Kukkiwon...).


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## Dana

I find I even have a good turn around using snail mail for skip-dans and above 4th dans.  Really depends on when the KKW testing dates are.

D


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## troubleenuf

Ive been waiting on a couple for two months now.  Been expecting to see them anytime but so far they have not shown up.  Did them online so usually are pretty quick that way.


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## d1jinx

troubleenuf said:


> Ive been waiting on a couple for two months now.  Been expecting to see them anytime but so far they have not shown up.  Did them online so usually are pretty quick that way.


  yeah me too.  I dont get it.  sometimes superquick, like around 2 weeks.  this time i submitted on the 2 of May, and it just cleared from the confirm apply page (which is the sign they were processed) and shows in the dan check page as being promoted.  so now it "should" be in the mail...  but still over a month? 1 time I did it on the 1st, was completed on the 5th and at my house by the 15th... 

guess it all depends.


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## hoshindo

I think they do them on the 5th and the 20th each month as long as the dates fall on Monday - Friday.  I do not think they process them on weekends... i think


James


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## tinker1

Bushido Spirit said:


> I am at a loss...
> My TKD Instructor has let me down.
> He has shown his true colors and after 3 yrs. I have moved on.
> 
> My question is this.
> Is it possible to verify Kukkiwon/WTF credentials through a Kukkiwon number as opposed to a name?
> I have searched the Kukkiwon data base and come up with nothing...but a friend sent me a number form "Grandmaster Chun Im" Dan certificate, which I believe to be bogus...
> 
> Can someone help?
> 
> The Number on his Certificate is 5056783



Why do you say he let you down?  Was what you learned of no value?


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## dmh

hi, i'm a new coach, how can i sign my student kukkiwon.or.kr?


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## msmitht

dmh said:


> hi, i'm a new coach, how can i sign my student kukkiwon.or.kr?


If you are a 4th dan kukkiwon then you have to go to the kukkiwon website and look for the dan/poom promotion tab. Join, provide needed documents and once approved you log in and apply.


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## dmh

i have 3th dan, how can i log to the dan/poom promotion?


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## skribs

dmh said:


> i have 3th dan, how can i log to the dan/poom promotion?





msmitht said:


> If you are a 4th dan



You aren't 4th dan, so I don't think you can.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

dmh said:


> hi, i'm a new coach, how can i sign my student kukkiwon.or.kr?


What about your teacher?


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## dmh

kempodisciple said:


> What about your teacher?


GRANDMASTER Sim Woon Pan


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

dmh said:


> GRANDMASTER Sim Woon Pan


I meant couldn't he sign your student up, if you have to be 4th dan to do so? Even if he's not at the school, he could still complete the testing.


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## dmh

kempodisciple said:


> I meant couldn't he sign your student up, if you have to be 4th dan to do so? Even if he's not at the school, he could still complete the testing.


he passed away


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

dmh said:


> he passed away


Ah. I'm really sorry to hear that.


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## skribs

dmh said:


> he passed away



Then you would need to get your student sponsored by another Master who has the access.  You will also need to get your 4th dan rank from another Master or Grandmaster in order to qualify.


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## WaterGal

skribs said:


> Then you would need to get your student sponsored by another Master who has the access.  You will also need to get your 4th dan rank from another Master or Grandmaster in order to qualify.



Well, it's kind of either/or. Another 4th dan (or higher) could oversee the test and submit the form to KKW, or dmh could get someone to promote them to 4th dan and they could do it themselves.


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## skribs

WaterGal said:


> Well, it's kind of either/or. Another 4th dan (or higher) could oversee the test and submit the form to KKW, or dmh could get someone to promote them to 4th dan and they could do it themselves.



And/or, not either/or


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## dmh

WaterGal said:


> Well, it's kind of either/or. Another 4th dan (or higher) could oversee the test and submit the form to KKW, or dmh could get someone to promote them to 4th dan and they could do it themselves.


well do you know who can i speak with?


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## WaterGal

dmh said:


> well do you know who can i speak with?



For which one? If you want someone to promote your students, you'll want to start contacting KKW masters in your state/region/country and do some networking. Send some emails or Facebook messages.

If you want someone to promote you to 4th dan, you'll need to either 1) find someone who's at least 5th dan who's willing to test and promote you at their school, or 2) go to a group testing offered through your national governing body (USA Taekwondo, or the equivalent in your country) or going to a KKW special dan test.

My other half, Mr WaterGal, did his last dan test by the second method after we had a falling out with our old instructor. KKW was offering a special dan test in conjunction with their Master Instructor course in Denver a few years back, and he flew out and did both.


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## dvcochran

WaterGal said:


> For which one? If you want someone to promote your students, you'll want to start contacting KKW masters in your state/region/country and do some networking. Send some emails or Facebook messages.
> 
> If you want someone to promote you to 4th dan, you'll need to either 1) find someone who's at least 5th dan who's willing to test and promote you at their school, or 2) go to a group testing offered through your national governing body (USA Taekwondo, or the equivalent in your country) or going to a KKW special dan test.
> 
> My other half, Mr WaterGal, did his last dan test by the second method after we had a falling out with our old instructor. KKW was offering a special dan test in conjunction with their Master Instructor course in Denver a few years back, and he flew out and did both.


Did you see anything different in the KKW special dan test? 
I did my 4th Dan like you mentioned in Chicago, in conjunction with my GM back in 1994. Overall I thought is was a good bit easier than our usual curriculum testing;s.


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## WaterGal

dvcochran said:


> Did you see anything different in the KKW special dan test?
> I did my 4th Dan like you mentioned in Chicago, in conjunction with my GM back in 1994. Overall I thought is was a good bit easier than our usual curriculum testing;s.



I stayed behind and taught classes while he did that (in retrospect, I'm pretty sure our students wouldn't have actually minded us closing the school for the week for something like that, but we were so scared to take any time off back then), so I didn't actually see it. IIRC, from what he said it sounded like they had a lot of people crowded into a small hotel conference room and basically just ran through the basic minimum requirements of forms, breaking, demonstrate some basic techniques, do some sparring.


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## andyjeffries

dmh said:


> GRANDMASTER Sim Woon Pan



I used to be really active on this forum, so I'm sad that I missed this one.

Grandmaster Pan was my instructor all the way from white belt to my current 7th Dan, he acknowledged me as his senior student, and I acted as his personal secretary in arranging things with both Kukkiwon and Changmookwan (as well as other events in Korea).

What assistance was he providing you? Can you let me know your real name (rather than forum username), maybe he spoke to me of the help he was giving you and I can help you.


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## andyjeffries

@dmh did you see my message above?


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## Gerry Seymour

andyjeffries said:


> @dmh did you see my message above?


@dmh hasn't signed in since April. With any luck, they'll check back in at some point and see your post.


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## Gwai Lo Dan

skribs said:


> And/or, not either/or



"Either" can mean "both".


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