# Our Society Changing? Of Course... But Where Is It Going??



## MA-Caver (Sep 15, 2009)

This is a good article and I feel it denotes some discussion. 
Recent (very) public outbursts prompted the writer to look into the why's and wherefores of them. 



> *What Do Public Tirades Say About Our Current State of Civility?*
> *Kanye West, Serena Williams and Joe Wilson All Recently Lost Control in Public*
> 
> *By DAN HARRIS and REBECCA LEE*
> ...


Even on regular television programming I'm seeing things that are just... I dunno, you wouldn't have seen 20, 15, 10 or even 5 years ago. 
Language, sexual promiscuity, comedy is coarser, and so on. 
I realize that for a society to grow changes must take effect. Yet as the article asked what about the changes to our values? Morals? Standards? 
Basically respect for others. How we talk to one another, our mode of dress, general appearance, attitudes towards authority figures and so on. 
Even here on MT we have rules regulating how we address, respond, approach one another because they prevent friction in the forum. Rude people are ejected and banned, yet it's happening more often than we think (from one conversation with Bob H. ). 
As I grew up I had two general instructors of how to deal with people. One being my father and his group who were raised in the 1920's to 1940's where folks were civil to one another. Language was only for the coarser types and generally shunned. Clothes were modest for both men and women, respect for authority figures (LEO's, Civil servants, etc) was in high regard and so forth... 
The other group influence I had were the 1960's to 80's where the hippie culture of the late 60's and sex laden disco era of the 70's and the metal culture of the 80's :idunno: as that generation grew up their opposition to the previous generation's morals and values carried on to today's society. 

It's too broad a picture to pin point where the changes have taken place. 
But they're there and now becoming more evident. 

What does this say about the next generation? What type of future is being built for them? What type of society is being nurtured as children of today are growing up into these increasingly coarser role-models? 

Thoughts, discussion... think upon it as many of you interact with students in the Dojo are there changes that you see in and outside?


----------



## CoryKS (Sep 15, 2009)

I would say that the most recent changes started to come about with the popularity of the "you're not the boss of me" mentality where nobody is supposed to judge anyone for anything.  But people have been declaring that their civilization is going to hell in a handbasket for as long as civilization has been around.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> I would say that the most recent changes started to come about with the popularity of the "you're not the boss of me" mentality where nobody is supposed to judge anyone for anything. But people have been declaring that their civilization is going to hell in a handbasket for as long as civilization has been around.


 
and some of those civilizations went to hell in a handbasket too


----------



## CoryKS (Sep 15, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> and some of those civilizations went to hell in a handbasket too


 
Yeah, but it's so worth it to be able to point and go "Haha!  Told you so!"


----------



## MA-Caver (Sep 15, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> Yeah, but it's so worth it to be able to point and go "Haha!  Told you so!"


True, but eventually they'll look at us and say: "Welcome to the neighborhood".


----------



## JDenver (Sep 15, 2009)

Can I say that it's going to the dogs?


----------



## grydth (Sep 15, 2009)

Prominent people across the spectrum from entertainer to congressman to professional athletes act like bratty children on a sugar high and some doubt we are going down the tubes...

In the case of Kanye West - Taylor Swift, one may at least be immensely grateful that the races weren't reversed. For if a talented young black woman was publicly assailed by a white thug crying that a white woman should have won..... well, imagine the additional weeks of endless BS avalanches courtesy of the Sharptons, Jacksons and other race baiters.....

The white conservative Congressman Wilson engages in a deplorable act..... and as a result gets contributions of $ 1 Million.... and the money doesn't even come from the Klan!

Serena (who named her?) Williams engages in a terrifying and profane diatribe and gets fined $10,000. However, she goes on to earn $560,000 from the tournament to show a tidy profit of a mere half a million..... that'll show her, huh?

What's worse is that they and others will have to keep engaging in even more disgusting acts to get the attention they crave. 

Maybe the esteemed Congressman will next moon the President during the State of the Union address.... and will thereby out earn Serena...


----------



## Big Don (Sep 15, 2009)

grydth said:


> The white conservative Congressman Wilson engages in a deplorable act..... and as a result gets contributions of $ 1 Million.... and the money doesn't even come from the Klan!


Calling a man who lies a liar is now a deplorable act?
the Klan? 
Really? 
Any questioning of Obama's actions or pointing out his lies is racially motivated?
So, what you are saying is only white people are honest? I'll tell Bill Clinton, Traficant and the ghost of Ted Kennedy...
Joe Wilson was doing what Martin Luther King dreamed, he was judging Obama by the content of his character, and he gets called a racist for it...


----------



## grydth (Sep 15, 2009)

Yes, Don, screaming out,"You Lie!" to interrupt the President before a joint session of Congress is deplorable.

If you cannot see the distinction between rational debate on the floor and rudely screaming during an address, I don't think we have much to discuss. Even Wilson sees it, and apologized for it.

The rest of the words are yours, not mine. But have fun with the straw man.


----------



## girlbug2 (Sep 15, 2009)

I think Big Don was pointing out that no matter what you think of the manners of somebody calling the President a liar before Congress, his race was not a factor. Merely assuming racism and Klan connections because the congressman is white is uncalled for.


----------



## grydth (Sep 15, 2009)

girlbug2 said:


> I think Big Don was pointing out that no matter what you think of the manners of somebody calling the President a liar before Congress, his race was not a factor. Merely assuming racism and Klan connections because the congressman is white is uncalled for.



I'm sure Don can speak for himself on what he means....... so can I, and you have it wrong.

I don't ever "assume" anything.

I did not anywheres allege "Klan connections", and specifically said that it was frightening that it was *not the Klan *that was sending Wilson the million bucks for his outburst.... point being, it's scary that *anyone else* would reward such behavior, and isn't it frightening that so many would?

Oh, as a society we're definitely on the way down. Another symptom is the death of rational discourse.


----------



## girlbug2 (Sep 15, 2009)

I believe...rudeness and coarse behavior is on the rise, partly because we're becoming more and more disconnected and alienated from one another. It's easier to disrespect people when you don't have to interact with them up close and personal, when they're not part of your (ever shrinking) community and in all likelihood you won't ever meet that person again. 

How many of us still live in our hometown of childhood? For that matter, how many of us can really say they have a hometown at all? We move on constantly, from house to house, job to job, ever more anonymously. It becomes harder to care about other people's feelings, or what they think of us, when everything's so temporary. A century ago, you could be ruined by breaking your word because you lived by your reputation within the culture. Now, there really is no such thing anymore. If anybody's shocked by something you do or say today, it'll be forgotten in a few weeks as the next public buffoon takes your place. It's all teflon now.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 15, 2009)

Timelines for major civilizations - Overview

More detail

I forget what class it was in college, I suspect it was philosophy but we were discussing major civilizations and how many there have been and how many there can be in the time left for good ole planet earth and I am sorry but I do not remember the numbers but it is a lot and a curious thing is that many of the major civilizations seemed to break up or start to fall roughly around the same time their central religion started to break up of change. Of course it is not necessarily the religion influencing the fall, although it could be since a lot of peoples moral training and belief comes from their religion and those morals and beliefs build the civilization and once those change possibly the civilization will to. But it could be the other way around, society starts to fail and the religion follows or they could be entirely unrelated. 

Bottom-line there have been some pretty major civilizations on the planet that many thought would always be here and they are gone we may be no different.


----------



## shihansmurf (Sep 15, 2009)

First off, thank you to MA-Caver for posting this article. I've been pondering this for most of the day and was planning on posting on this subject but I wasn't sure what forum it belonged in. Truth be told, I've been thinking on this topic for quite a bit and the recent public outbursts from several celebrities have sharpened my view on this matter.

As most of you know I am a soldier. My profession, although it does attract a certain, shall we say "colorful" personality type, requires a great deal of etiquette. We have a lot of rules that we have to follow that govern how we conduct ourselves and how we interact with other people. On top of that I happened to be raised in an environment where many traditional rules of behavior were enforced, so I am a bit old fashioned in my decorum.

With the above caveats being stated, I am amazed at the way we have, as a people, lost our collective sense of good manners and ability to behave as civilized people. I don't even mean in major and obvious ways, like the insane outbursts of a U.S. Congressman disrespecting the President in a public forum, or the awards show debacle. I mean simple day to day manners. 

I hold the door for people, address people I don't know by "Sir" or "Ma'am", excuse myself from a conversation if I need to take a phone call(I don't interrupt other people's calls either), use good table manners, engage waitstaff and store clerks with civility, remove my hat indoors, defer to elders, and treat others with general courtesy. I am raising my son to do the same. I think it is telling of our culture, although it does make me very proud of him, how often people compliment me on my son's manners. See, I don't think that the fact that he address's adults by Mister or Miss, doesn't interrupt them when they speak, and behaves himself like a gentleman in public is noteworthy.It is the behavior I expect out of him. I think it is something that will serve him well as an adult, and a lack of manners will harm him as an adult. On a similar note, should I fail to teach him how to conduct himself well in public I would be a poor father. 

I know I'm rambling a bit, but bear with me. As a whole we seem to have decided that good manners just don't matter.  We, in general, seems to have decided that engaging each other in any low, crass, and vulgar way is acceptable. We can speak to each other however we want and its fine, we can dress in public in any way we wish and its okay, we can put forth into the public forum any sort of image and we are not to be judged on it. 

Until we cross some vague and undefined line of acceptableness, that is. I don't think that the recent outburst by our celebrities are incidences that have occurred in a vacuum. We have became more and more, "casual" I suppose, with what we are accepting of in society. We fail to behave like polite men and women, yet when our public figures perform childish stunts we react with shock and disapproval. Truthfully, if we are going to point a finger at anyone, I would think that that finger should point inwardly first. 
In the case of the good Representative, I think what is most disturbing about all of this isn't so much that he had that outburst, but rather how accurate of a representation of the People he really is.

Just my view.
Mark


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 15, 2009)

The good old days werent always good. Every generation always worries about the one that comes after it, but I would argue that we are better off today then any other time in history. We always look at the negatives, but consider, we are living longer then ever, we have better medical technology then ever, we are better educated then ever, violent crime is way down, more people can read and write then ever, science and technology has never been better, there hasnt been a major world war in 65 years.

 The ranting of a few misfits means nothing.   

One day the USA will not exist. One day Canada will not exist. One day China will not exist. One day *insert country here*, will not exist. Politically all states disappear, thats the way of it. I doubt that anyone reading this will see the demise of their own state, but a few may.

Ah the good old days. Everything made with butter and lard, everyone drank, smoked, used lead paint and treated solvents and X-rays with callous disregard. DDT. State supported intolerance towards minorities and women. Days when a priest or a teacher could beat the **** out of you, and you were suppose to take it. 

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato

Im not naive enough to think that the world is even close to being perfect, but I wouldnt live in any other time.


----------



## Big Don (Sep 15, 2009)

grydth said:


> Yes, Don, screaming out,"You Lie!" to interrupt the President before a joint session of Congress is deplorable.


Not when he is a liar it isn't. Why is an HONEST description deplorable? Had he NOT shouted it out on the House floor, it would have got ZERO coverage in the "News Media" which, is sadly becoming an association of apologists for Obama, and other Democrats and their screw ups





> If you cannot see the distinction between rational debate on the floor and rudely screaming during an address, I don't think we have much to discuss. Even Wilson sees it, and apologized for it.
> 
> The rest of the words are yours, not mine. But have fun with the straw man.


No, you said:


grydth said:


> The white conservative Congressman Wilson engages in a deplorable act..... and as a result gets contributions of $ 1 Million.... and the money doesn't even come from the Klan!


Which, if it wasn't meant to imply racism on the part of Wilson and his donors, is what?


----------



## Andrew Green (Sep 16, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Not when he is a liar it isn't.



Yes, it is.  Doesn't matter who the president is, what he says, or which party he is from.  This is not the means to intelligent discourse.

Let's be honest, everyone from any party except the speaker is going to call the speaker a liar, regardless of what that speaker is saying.  Obama could get up there and say the sky is blue and the Republicans would feel the need to counter based on principal, and that goes both ways.

Do you really think a environment where everyone just screams at each other and whoever screams the loudest wins is the best way for politics to happen?  If so I think you've spent way too much time watching Bill O...  It is possible for intelligent people to disagree, and debate in a civilized way, that does not involve screaming over the person who's turn it is to speak.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Sep 16, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Calling a man who lies a liar is now a deplorable act?
> the Klan?
> Really?
> Any questioning of Obama's actions or pointing out his lies is racially motivated?
> ...



There is a time and place for feedback and debate. Calling the president of the US a liar during a speech is bad manners and extremely disrespectful.


----------



## Bruno@MT (Sep 16, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Im not naive enough to think that the world is even close to being perfect, but I wouldnt live in any other time.




Considering the trend of scientific advances over the past centuries, one or two hundreds years further in the future would be nice


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (Sep 16, 2009)

Most of these things are just issues due to the fact that the media is so expansive, and that things that normally would not be heard in the past are now being heard.

Personally, I think that strategic "outbursts" can be beneficial to public debate.  I find it interesting that the president can literally stand there and calmly call everyone in the room who disagrees with him a liar, and not expect some type of emotional response from the audience.  We can call it naive, but to rationally expect otherwise is unrealistic.  I may not have done it, but I would have shown my ire in some demonstrable way.

Question:  why do we not call Obama rude and disrespectful for calling those in the audience who disagree with him liars?  Because he didn't simply yell it out?  What about when he states in a press conference that the Cambridge police officers are "stupid"?  In fact, him calling Kanye West a "jackass" is only being talked about because the people who reported apparently should not have done so.  

I think it is all well and good to have a set of manners and rules of decorum.  But, they should apply equally across the board if we are going to have them.

When there is no shared sense of culture, how are we to decide what is rude, especially across the entire span of the U.S?  The embacing in the U.S. of multi-culturalism has disallowed judgements of this sort, because every group will have its own acceptable rules of decorum, and we are now not allowed to "judge" them for it.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 16, 2009)

*"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.&#8221; This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato*

I have seen this quote used many times in debate and have indeed used it myself in discourse with my father (when I was much younger) on this very issue.  

As with *Shihan*, I was raised in a way that even then was probably considered old fashioned and was similarly complimented on my manners and bearing.  Does it not speak of a change for the worse that I can think of no child I have seen or met for twenty years who was worthy of similar compliments (who was not a member of  a religious organisation and out in public)?

So, altho I may have used the Platonic quote myself in past arguments, I do not think it applies truthfully as a counter to the statement of declining values over generations (other than as a warning that such decline does happen and if you don't take steps to reverse it then the civilisation is on the way out).

I now actually do agree with my father because, like he had back then, I now have had the benefit of seeing more than my own generation 'in action'.


----------



## crushing (Sep 16, 2009)

grydth said:


> Yes, Don, screaming out,"You Lie!" to interrupt the President before a joint session of Congress is deplorable.


 
Correct, the only outbursts and interruptions allowed during the President's speech are those that are in full support of the President.  Wilson should just sit down, shut up, and wait for the cue to stand and cheer to show support for President.  Actually, it would be nice if Congress kept these outbursts and interruptions to a minimum too.  Unfortunately, I haven't seen any discussion in the media about those interruptions.

At any rate, Wilson owned it, knows what he did was wrong, and immediately apologized to the President for his exclamation during the speech.  Of course there is still some political gamesmanship going on with regard to Wilson's comment during the speech.


----------



## CoryKS (Sep 16, 2009)

People are blowing the Wilson thing way out of proportion. Yes, it was rude. But if you want to have the credibility to express outrage over it, you need to refrain from engaging in the same behavior. The Democrats didn't. They boohed Bush during his State of the Union address in 2005. And if they're going to chastise him for it, perhaps they could spare a few words for Pete Stark of California, who called Bush a liar twice in the same speech. And lest people think I'm trying to redirect this back at the Democrats, the Republicans pulled this crap when Clinton was president too. As someone who voted Democrat at the time, I was really hoping they would take the high ground when Bush was elected. Sadly, that didn't happen. 

So my point is not to say that it's okay because the other side does it too, I'm just saying that it's dishonest for the Democrats (_and_ the Republicans) to get the vapors over things they were doing just a couple of years ago. If they really think this is bad form, they need to get together and agree not to do it. Otherwise, all this gasping and fainting and bemoaning the plight of our society is just political tactics.

Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.


----------



## girlbug2 (Sep 16, 2009)

shihansmurf said:


> I hold the door for people, address people I don't know by "Sir" or "Ma'am", excuse myself from a conversation if I need to take a phone call(I don't interrupt other people's calls either), use good table manners, engage waitstaff and store clerks with civility, remove my hat indoors, defer to elders, and treat others with general courtesy. I am raising my son to do the same. I think it is telling of our culture, although it does make me very proud of him, how often people compliment me on my son's manners. See, I don't think that the fact that he address's adults by Mister or Miss, doesn't interrupt them when they speak, and behaves himself like a gentleman in public is noteworthy.It is the behavior I expect out of him


 
At night, a lone candle shines brighter than the sun


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2009)

Let me ask this is the Wilson thing worse than the Fort Sumter thing or the Titanic thing or the McCarthy thing or the Cuban thing or the Watts thing or the Democratic National Convention thing or the Booth thing or the Manson thing? 

Very likely no......

And did any of these change our society?

Well yes they did.... 

Is society the same now as it was in 1963 or 1969 or 1972 0r 1985 or 1995 or 2005 for that matter?

Nope....

Who is right or wrong in anything dealing with political figures will generally break down to party loyalty as to who is right or wrong and that, IMO, is a waste of time and geneally stops actual discussion.

And this has already been said but it is not a justification to do something that is wrong just because the other side did it before. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. 



CoryKS said:


> Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.


 
And for the first time I heard fitty cent say simething I liked about something and it was about Kanye West 

"I wish he would try and take one of my awards so I could black his eye - fitty cent"

He also noticed that Kanye didn't try and take anything from Pink :EG:


----------



## Big Don (Sep 16, 2009)

Day by Day makes a good point about racism.


----------



## Big Don (Sep 16, 2009)

Wasn't it Jimmy Carter who supported "Ethnically pure neighborhoods"?
Yeah, until it became inconvenient for him to.


----------



## Sukerkin (Sep 16, 2009)

Don, my friend, not everything is about Republican greatness and Democrat debauchery.  Politics is part of life, yes, that is very true.  I also know that this is something about which you feel incredibly strongly.

But I think, really, this thread is about more than the charade that is the political circus.  it is about the actual fabric of society itself, the place where the real people live.


----------



## elder999 (Sep 16, 2009)

MA-Caver said:


> H. ).
> It's too broad a picture to pin point where the changes have taken place.
> But they're there and now becoming more evident.
> 
> ...


 
I tried covering some of this in  this thread :



elder999 said:


> I continue to be amazed at how willing many people are to accept the abysmal standards of societys lowest common denominators. Yes, I realize it is symptomatic of a decaying, increasingly destructive culture. Perhaps what amazes me most is the rapidity with which the collapse of this society is occurring.
> 
> Last week we were in the bookstore. We took our selections to the counter to pay, and there was a very nice looking, well dressed, white haired older woman in front of us. During the course of paying for her purchases she used the f word twice. The clerk appeared totally unfazed by the womans language. A friend told me of driving in Santa Fe, when an older woman almost hit him. He honked the horn, and she flipped him off. It was summer, their windows were rolled down, so he said _Que pasa con usted, senora? Usted es abuelita, y debe que ser ejemplo. Que verguenza_ (Whats the matter with you? Youre a grandmother, who ought to be a role model. Shame on you.) She replied, ***** you*!. My friend, who was raised in a very traditional Northern New Mexican/Spanish family, was appalled. When he told me about it, he still couldnt believe it had happened. I wish I could say that things like this were the exception, but they arent. Theyre the norm. Several generations in this country have been raised with minimal, if any, social skills. Many in the generations preceding them, who ought to know better, have abandoned the higher standards that once prevailed. It seems as if just about anything goes. The prevailing standard today is Give me mine, and get out of my way.
> 
> ...


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> *"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato*
> 
> I have seen this quote used many times in debate and have indeed used it myself in discourse with my father (when I was much younger) on this very issue.
> 
> ...


 
Amazing how that trend seems to repeat itself over and over and over from one major civilzation to another...

It was true of the Roman Empire as well. In the final days before the fall there was a push for a return to "Roman Values" but it failed miserably. 

And now...many hundreds of years later...here we are again. But why? 

Because we're humans and we repeatedly follow the same behaviors even though we know from history they will doom us. It's a miracle we haven't gone extinct really...LOL 

In every case as civiliaztions gained prominence and wealth the citizens grew lazier and lazier and expected the "government" to provide more and more. 

In every case a strong working class with solid ethics gave way to a smaller wealthy class (in the majority of cases ending up as an Oligarchy) and larger poorer class. 

I could go on, but what's the point? History repeats itself.... Those that don't learn from History are doomed to repeat it.... yadda-yadda-yadda. 

It's not necessarily a matter of changing "how" we do things as much as changing who we are. Maybe? 

Or maybe we're doomed to repeat hitory over and over. The universe and nature are cyclical things...and we're part of that. Maybe it's our destiny to continue to screw things up. I'd love to be proven wrong, but History has a strong argument.


----------



## elder999 (Sep 16, 2009)

Of course, when society has fallen, and what's left of us are fighting each other tooth and nail for the basics: food, water, shelter, security-we'll be a lot more polite, since *armed* people generally make for polite company........or shorter conversations, anyway...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Amazing how that trend seems to repeat itself over and over and over from one major civilzation to another...
> 
> It was true of the Roman Empire as well. In the final days before the fall there was a push for a return to "Roman Values" but it failed miserably.
> 
> And now...many hundreds of years later...here we are again. But why?


 
Because everything has an expiration date, it is just easier to find in a grocery store


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Of course, when society has fallen, and what's left of us are fighting each other tooth and nail for the basics: food, water, shelter, security-we'll be a lot more polite, since *armed* people generally make for polite company........or shorter conversations, anyway...


 
The opponents of the 2nd ammendment would never swallow that. 



Xue Sheng said:


> Because *everything has an* *expiration date*, it is just easier to find in a grocery store


 
What kind of *wine* you been drinking? :burp:


----------



## elder999 (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> The opponents of the 2nd ammendment would never swallow that.


 
They'll be scambling for their guns along with the rest of us, when the food riots start......:lfao:


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2009)

elder999 said:


> They'll be scambling for their guns along with the rest of us, when the food riots start......:lfao:


 
More likely they'll be shot by the rest of us as they don't believe in "guns". Sorry...there's only one jar of Jiff left and it's mine!


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> What kind of *wine* you been drinking? :burp:


 
Well since I only drink Chinese wine and the Chinese only have 2 classifications for alcohol which are beer and wine

Beer for all things that are beer and wine for all those things that are not beer... to be honest I really don't know... but I will say I can't find an expiration date anywhere on the bottle


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2009)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well since I only drink Chinese wine and the Chinese only have 2 classifications for alcohol which are beer and wine
> 
> Beer for all things that are beer and wine for all those things that are not beer... to be honest I really don't know... but I will say I can't find an expiration date anywhere on the bottle


 
If you're drinking wine with an expiration date on the bottle you're in trouble. ROFL :lol:


----------



## grydth (Sep 16, 2009)

Big Don said:


> Not when he is a liar it isn't. Why is an HONEST description deplorable? Had he NOT shouted it out on the House floor, it would have got ZERO coverage in the "News Media" which, is sadly becoming an association of apologists for Obama, and other Democrats and their screw upsNo, you said:
> Which, if it wasn't meant to imply racism on the part of Wilson and his donors, is what?



Don, should I ever reach a truly desperate condition whereby I need you to interpret the true meaning/motive/inferences of what I write here, I will PM you. Until that time, kindly refrain from doing so.

What is deplorable is the time and place and method which Wilson used. What is of more concern is that people are rewarding and defending his action when even he has admitted it was wrong.


----------



## grydth (Sep 16, 2009)

CoryKS said:


> People are blowing the Wilson thing way out of proportion. Yes, it was rude. But if you want to have the credibility to express outrage over it, you need to refrain from engaging in the same behavior. The Democrats didn't. They boohed Bush during his State of the Union address in 2005. And if they're going to chastise him for it, perhaps they could spare a few words for Pete Stark of California, who called Bush a liar twice in the same speech. And lest people think I'm trying to redirect this back at the Democrats, the Republicans pulled this crap when Clinton was president too. As someone who voted Democrat at the time, I was really hoping they would take the high ground when Bush was elected. Sadly, that didn't happen.
> 
> So my point is not to say that it's okay because the other side does it too, I'm just saying that it's dishonest for the Democrats (_and_ the Republicans) to get the vapors over things they were doing just a couple of years ago. If they really think this is bad form, they need to get together and agree not to do it. Otherwise, all this gasping and fainting and bemoaning the plight of our society is just political tactics.
> 
> Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.



The conduct is wrong no matter who is doing it, and the fact that both sides engage in it is even more proof of our downward spiral.

One may recall that Ann Coulter and other conservatives were hit with pies when trying to make public appearances.... this was simply trying to hide the use of violence to prevent opposing viewpoints behind supposed slapstick comedy. 

Outside the US, the turd who called President Bush a dog and threw shoes at him is being made into a bogus hero in the Middle East.

The behavior is wrong, no matter who it is directed at and who is doing it.  Once this becomes commonplace, and then accepted and rewarded, intelligent discourse dies. The end won't come long after that.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 16, 2009)

grydth said:


> What is deplorable is the time and place and method which Wilson used. What is of more concern is that people are rewarding and defending his action when even he has admitted it was wrong.


 
Now I'm not saying it wasn't rude...but...

You have to admit the look on Pelosi's face was classic. ROFL "gasp!" I laugh every time I see that....lol

At any rate, he apologized and Obama accepted. I think that should be the end of it. Move on dot org already. 

I may feel differently had Wilson _not_ been correct, though. 

If you want to discuss inappropriate behavior you'd be better off talking about Charlie Rangle.


----------



## CoryKS (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> You have to admit the look on Pelosi's face was classic. ROFL "gasp!" I laugh every time I see that....lol


 
Did you see how wide her eyes got?  Oh wait...


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> If you want to discuss inappropriate behavior you'd be better off talking about Charlie Rangle.



Ignore the man behind the curtain! We must remain "on message" and that message is WILSON!


----------



## grydth (Sep 16, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> Now I'm not saying it wasn't rude...but...
> 
> You have to admit the look on Pelosi's face was classic. ROFL "gasp!" I laugh every time I see that....lol
> 
> ...



While seeing Nancy Pelosi looking like she'd just swallowed her tobacco chaw is amusing, I'd prefer a different cause for her distress.

We certainly will quickly move on from the person of Rep Wilson, but it may well only be because another political figure is exposed doing something even worse...... ditto for Kanye West and Serena Williams, as weekly instances of celebrity and athlete misconduct have become almost a guarantee.

One could add Secretary Geithner to Rep Rangel to start a list of Democrats who feel the tax laws (and increases) don't apply to them. Problem is, a poster on the left could compile an equally depressive list of family values Republicans caught with individuals not their spouses.... and that's really the overall point here. Wilson and Rangel are indeed coming to represent our society.... which is going down quickly.


----------



## blindsage (Sep 16, 2009)

_EVERY_ generation says the society is in decline.  Sure, I think there has been a decline in general civility in American society in the last 60 years, but then we don't have Jim Crow.   To me, a large portion of the change and what is perceived as (and in someways I agree is) a decline in the society is actually a throwing-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater break with the past.  Yes we can claim that our parents or grandparents lived in a more 'civil' time, but they also had their own issues that were eating away at the culture and are a direct influence on the way we are now.  There isn't some neat break where the old times were just so much better but this new generation is just corrupt and it's their own fault with no relation to the previous generations.  My peers are products of their parents, who are products of their parents.  Where's the clean break?


----------



## elder999 (Sep 16, 2009)

blindsage said:


> _EVERY_ generation says the society is in decline.


 
_*EVERY* society *declines*._


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 16, 2009)

elder999 said:


> _*EVERY* society *declines*._



At what point were we INCLINING? What with all the wars, Civil Wars, political scandals, didnt a VP kill a man in a duel once? Id wager that if you asked any person alive at any point in time they would say the same thing. There is no declining...only change.

There was only a "golden age" when history is viewed through gold colored glasses....


----------



## elder999 (Sep 16, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> At what point were we INCLINING? What with all the wars, Civil Wars, political scandals, didnt a VP kill a man in a duel once? Id wager that if you asked any person alive at any point in time they would say the same thing. There is no declining...only change.
> 
> There was only a "golden age" when history is viewed through gold colored glasses....


 
A fair question-I'd say the growth of the middle-class was an indication that our society was on an inlcine. The dwindling we're experiencing now, if it's a continuing trend, is just one indication of a decline of what our society (and I'm speaking of the U.S.) has stood for-along with any number of other indicators, including some in this thread.

Though _your _right-there is only change. 

_Prhps in nthr 100 yrs wl all b wrtg lk ths?_


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 16, 2009)

I think that the main factor in the IMPRESSION of societal decline is the rise of media/internet. Human behavior that has been around FOREVER but never popularized is now available 24/7 on our TV's and Computer screens. If people in the 1800's had the internet they would have thought the world was ending too.


----------



## grydth (Sep 16, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> I think that the main factor in the IMPRESSION of societal decline is the rise of media/internet. Human behavior that has been around FOREVER but never popularized is now available 24/7 on our TV's and Computer screens. If people in the 1800's had the internet they would have thought the world was ending too.



Yes, and anytime you disagree with me, you are contributing to the decline.:uhyeah:

On a serious note.... yeah, the media definitely gives a forum and an audience for these people to act out. 

However, there were very virulent newspapers and cartoonists active in the 1800s, and the level of discourse just before the Civil War was worse than even today. There was a caning on the floor of the Senate around then, and another in the House just before 1800.

But I read a very old book on criminal cases in the US from the Revolution to about 1840..... and the criminals were every bit as depraved as today. The difference was they were not still running about preying upon folks after 29 convictions.


----------



## Andy Moynihan (Sep 17, 2009)

Nothing ever ends *just like that*. But I do believe we're coming to the end.

What you have now, for good or ill, are a left and right slanted American public who, for the reasons expressed before me, have polarized so far apart that they can no longer coexist.

Noise was made in recent years about the "ridiculousness" of certain states threatening, or failing to publicly dismiss the idea of, secession, yet secession or separation is nothing more than the natural result of a collapsing empire. Were the majority of us not alive to witness this very thing occur within the former Soviet Union?

No.

I doubt some great apocalypse will wipe us out overnight, but I'm going to tell you honestly and without joking--as a single, unified country such as we recognize right now---I think we will be gone soon.


----------



## 5-0 Kenpo (Sep 18, 2009)

I think that it would be an interesting study to determine if the fall of civilization could be positively correlated with the rise of mulit-culturalism within a single society.

If everyone in a given society has different value systems, how can it possibly stand?


----------



## Big Don (Sep 18, 2009)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> I think that it would be an interesting study to determine if the fall of civilization could be positively correlated with the rise of mulit-culturalism within a single society.
> 
> If everyone in a given society has different value systems, how can it possibly stand?


That is why the nation's motto is E Pluribus Unum, OUT of Many, ONE.
Multiculturalism is NOT in our best intrests.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Nothing ever ends *just like that*. But I do believe we're coming to the end.
> 
> What you have now, for good or ill, are a left and right slanted American public who, for the reasons expressed before me, have polarized so far apart that they can no longer coexist.
> 
> ...


 

I dont think the US is any more polarized then it ever has been. When the Republicans were in the White house the Democrats sucked it up and got on with life, why would it be any different today for the Republicans?

The US is going through a huge process of deindustrialization, just like the UK and the rest of Europe went through decades ago, moving into service and niche market type industry. Combine that with US debt and the President, whom ever that may be, has his/her work cut out for them.

Im involved in politics up here, and within our party, and the others there is division. I know the UK is the same, and Id be surprised if the Democrats and the Republicans didnt have internal divisions as well. Politics by its very nature, can not be cohesive.

The US will pick itself up, dust itself off and get on with fixing whats wrong with itself. When the chips are down the loyalty of an American citizen is to the Republic and not to a political party. I think the reports of her death and greatly exaggerated.


----------



## Carol (Sep 18, 2009)

Big Don said:


> That is why the nation's motto is E Pluribus Unum, OUT of Many, ONE.



Our nation's motto is "In God We Trust", it was borne of McCarthy-era Protestant lobbying.


----------



## Big Don (Sep 18, 2009)

de facto motto, not de jure:
Never codified by law, _E pluribus unum_ was considered a _de facto_ motto of the United States until 1956 when the United States Congress passed an act (H.J. Resolution 396), adopting In God We Trust as the official motto.[1] Seth Read of Uxbridge, Massachusetts was said to have been "instrumental" in the addition of "E Pluribus Unum" to U.S. Coins.[2] The first coins with this mint appeared as early as 1786 at Newburgh, New York.
 While _Annuit c&#339;ptis_ and _Novus ordo seclorum_ appear on the reverse side of the great seal, _E pluribus unum_ appears on the obverse side of the seal, the image of which is used as the national emblem of the United States, and appears on official documents such as passports. It also appears on the seal of the President and in the seals of the Vice President of the United States, of the United States Congress, of the United States House of Representatives, of the United States Senate and on the seal of the United States Supreme Court. _E pluribus unum_, written in capital letters, is included on most U.S. currency, with some exceptions to the letter spacing (such as the reverse of the dime). It is also embossed on the edge of the dollar coin. (_See United States coinage and paper bills in circulation_).
*Originally suggesting that out of many colonies or states emerge a single nation, it has come to suggest that out of many peoples, races, religions and ancestries has emerged a single people and nation &#8211; illustrating the concept of the melting pot
*Or, as I think of it, many disparate cultures merging into a single US culture.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 18, 2009)

elder999 said:


> _*EVERY* society *declines*._


 
Every society repeats the same mistakes. 



elder999 said:


> A fair question-I'd say the growth of the middle-class was an indication that our society was on an inlcine. The dwindling we're experiencing now, if it's a continuing trend, is just one indication of a decline of what our society (and I'm speaking of the U.S.) has stood for-along with any number of other indicators, including some in this thread.
> 
> Though _your _right-there is only change.
> 
> _Prhps in nthr 100 yrs wl all b wrtg lk ths?_


 
Yup. The broader the "middle class" the more stable and successful the society. The wider the gap between the few in the "elite class" and even the "upper class" and the many in the "lower class" the more apt the society is to collapse. 

And yes, Orwellian simple-speak is just around the corner. Welcome to 1984. 



5-0 Kenpo said:


> I think that it would be an interesting study to determine if the fall of civilization could be positively correlated with the rise of mulit-culturalism within a single society.
> 
> If everyone in a given society has different value systems, how can it possibly stand?


 
Rome as an example maybe?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 18, 2009)

elder999 said:


> Prhps in nthr 100 yrs wl all b wrtg lk ths?


 
This has already been suggested 



> A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling​
> For example, in Year 1 that useless letter c would be dropped to be replased either by k or s, and likewise x would no longer be part of the alphabet. The only kase in which c would be retained would be the ch formation, which will be dealt with later.
> 
> 
> ...





5-0 Kenpo said:


> I think that it would be an interesting study to determine if the fall of civilization could be positively correlated with the rise of mulit-culturalism within a single society.
> 
> If everyone in a given society has different value systems, how can it possibly stand?


 
I believe this type of study has already been done based on the class I had in college that discussed it but to be honest this many years later I cannot point you in the direction of the source.


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 18, 2009)

Come on...we went through a CIVIL WAR a few hundred years ago. Our states were fighting against each other. If THAT wasnt the lowest point in our history I dont know what is.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 18, 2009)

A lot of long gone civilizations went through a civil war and survived only to later decline or be conquered and become points of interest for the archeologists of today


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Guys I can see evidence that can support the belief in the stagnation of the USA as an economic superpower and as a military superpower. (It&#8217;s more about the rise of other countries then the &#8220;decline&#8221;, on an arbitrary scale of the USA.) 

However I see no evidence to support the decline of the American state itself. What evidence is there to support the political system breaking down? You may love or hate the government, but the state will endure. 

Again, I restate what is said earlier. Americans are more loyal to the republic itself, then to the political ideology of any party.


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 18, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Guys I can see evidence that can support the belief in the stagnation of the USA as an economic superpower and as a military superpower. (It&#8217;s more about the rise of other countries then the &#8220;decline&#8221;, on an arbitrary scale of the USA.)
> 
> However I see no evidence to support the decline of the American state itself. What evidence is there to support the political system breaking down? You may love or hate the government, but the state will endure.
> 
> Again, I restate what is said earlier. Americans are more loyal to the republic itself, then to the political ideology of any country.



My point exactly. Bush didnt fiddle while the US burned and I doubt Obama will either. How we can say "this is the worst point in our history" when we have World Wars, Civil Wars, the Brits burning our cities in 1812 in our past I dont know. What do you think they were thinking? They persevered. And yes..our nation has changed since then and it will continue too. Look at the UK. Think they are the same as they were 500-1000 years ago. Of course not. But they are still there.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> My point exactly.  the Brits burning our cities in 1812.


 
Hey that was us!! The Brits just helped out a wee bit..

What do you think the White House is white? White wash will do an amazing job covering up burn marks.!!


----------



## Andrew Green (Sep 18, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Hey that was us!! The Brits just helped out a wee bit..
> 
> What do you think the White House is white? White wash will do an amazing job covering up burn marks.!!




Well, to be fair, we where Brits in 1812...


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Well, to be fair, we where Brits in 1812...


 


Actually my parents didn't make it to Canada until the 1950's...but its just so much more fun to tease!


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 18, 2009)

Just try it NOW...


----------



## CoryKS (Sep 18, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Just try it NOW...


 
Good God, man, what are you saying?!?

What he meant was, just try it in _2013_.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Just try it NOW...


 

Think about man, Canadians could cause serious havoc south of the border!

Many Canadian know more about your country then ours, (movies, baseball, NFL football, Mcdonalds, KFC), we look the same, we speak the same language, we have the same accent as some mid-westerners, you wouldnt even know we were there till it was too late!!! 

Bahahahahaha.:duel:


----------



## Archangel M (Sep 18, 2009)

Just arm all the Canadians coming over the border to shop eh?

Dude..all you would have to do is close down the strip joints and breweries and we would cave-in. But that would probably wreck your economy.

:duel:


----------



## grydth (Sep 18, 2009)

Ken Morgan said:


> Think about man, Canadians could cause serious havoc south of the border!
> 
> Many Canadian know more about your country then ours, (movies, baseball, NFL football, Mcdonalds, KFC), we look the same, we speak the same language, we have the same accent as some mid-westerners, you wouldnt even know we were there till it was too late!!!
> 
> Bahahahahaha.:duel:



_*Could *_cause serious havoc? 

Ever see what our hockey barns look like after a game?

What are those strange papers you offer for goods and services - looks like real money, but..... nah, couldn't be?

At least we don't need a translator for you folk, as we do whenever we get Tez and Sukerkin upset... though Ontario stuff - that ain't english, either.

We can round you up any time we like: Arrest anyone at AHL hockey games who says "Eh"..... and anyone on the roads who does a steady unwavering 90 and always in the middle lane...... stake out the malls and Tim Hortons.....


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

grydth said:


> _*Could *_cause serious havoc?
> 
> Ever see what our hockey barns look like after a game?
> 
> ...


 
Hey if you cant drive 90, you shouldnt be driving at all!! 

Ill take a Timmies any day, compared to those Duncan Donuts places. I think Tim Horton was killed doing more than 90 though.driving from Buffalo to Toronto. 

I cross the border two or three times a week. Paying for stuff with that monopoly money is like going back in time. Come on guys wake up, get with the program, the world isnt monotone anymore, they invented colour a few decades back! Note colour is spelt colour, not color.

Were the only ones that understand both the Brits and the Mericans. I think Mackenzie King translated for Churchill and FDR back in the second war. 

Hey we can round up the Mericans too, we just say thank you and when they reply uh huh instead of youre welcome, we just know youre Merican!!

But please youre more then welcome to bar hop cross border, drinking age in Ontario is 19, compared to 21 in NY, and our strip joints take it all off, (so I hear.)


----------



## The Last Legionary (Sep 18, 2009)




----------



## Archangel M (Sep 18, 2009)

"Is this thread changing? Of Course...But Where Is It Going??"


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 18, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> "Is this thread changing? Of Course...But Where Is It Going??"


 
Teasing the **** outta each other?


----------



## Gordon Nore (Sep 18, 2009)

To me the main point of the article cited in the OP was a decline of civility. The is-Obama-a-liar-or-isn't-he? thread drift is a case in point. Someone pointed out that Joe Wilson would not have gotten press had he not picked that moment to make his accusation. 

Incivility gets people attention. In celebrity culture, not only can you reap the benefits of calling this kind of attention to yourself, you can then get on Leno or Letterman for your mea culpa without actually making amends to the individuals your hurt the most.

Decline and fall? I don't know, but I do find the world often less pleasant than it could be.


----------



## celtic_crippler (Sep 18, 2009)

A subversive Candadian invasion would never work. You'd give yoursevles away the first time you ordered back-bacon at a restaurant or simply said, "eh".


----------



## Gordon Nore (Sep 19, 2009)

celtic_crippler said:


> A subversive Candadian invasion would never work. You'd give yoursevles away the first time you ordered back-bacon at a restaurant or simply said, "eh".



Naw, we have a special ops group trained in such matters as spelling colour, valour and honour without the *u*'s. They've been reconditioned to believe that a _rubbe_r is a _condom_ and not an _eraser_. Thanks to state-of-the-art mind control techniques, they now believe that Polly Holliday from the TV series 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


"Alice" was a _hoot_. Lest they be found out, they've learned to pepper conversation with phrases like, Awaken the sleeping giant," "I want my country back," and "Damn, I'd love to have a beer with Dubya."

They're also conditioned to act drunk on US beer.


----------



## Ken Morgan (Sep 19, 2009)

Oh, and don't forget my favorite, "If you don't support xyz, then the terrorists win!"

But our special op's would have to get use to terrible chocolate, no offense guys, but seriously, Chocolate from the UK is better then Canadian stuff, and Canadian stuff is better then US stuff. 

Oh, I'd volunteer to go south and have to eat pulled pork and BBQ'd ribs, thats good eaten.


----------



## grydth (Sep 19, 2009)

Who's for detaching these posts and making them "The Canadian Invasion" thread over at the Comedy section?

Let's be compassionate and even let the Canadians vote, too.


----------



## Tez3 (Sep 20, 2009)

Actually the Brits don't think they are where they were a hundred years ago, British society had changed radically, in fact you could say there is no British society anymore with devolution splitting the country up. Ours is very much a multi cultural society now which is not without it's problems. There is no British Commonwealth now, just the Commonwealth with all on equal footing. One thing we are very good at doing is adapting to the times, we now argue whether we are European or not, no one thinks of the empire, thats lost in the dark ages as far as we are concerned. We travel around as EU citizens and look to Europe for much, something else thats argued about here but there's no doubt we are very much in the 21st century and rarely look back which in many ways is a shame but thats life.


----------

