# taichi



## marlon (Jun 10, 2007)

can taiji be achieved without push hands?  Why why not?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## dmax999 (Jun 10, 2007)

Push hands is a training step between learning the form and full contact fighting. If you never intend to fight with it then it is not needed, but you will probably lack some understanding of the moves.

You could also skip push hands and go right into the fighting, but I would think that would take a long long time to start being able to use it for fighting the way it was intended.

So, the answer depends on your definition of Tai Chi. No fighting, then yes. Fighting, probably not. Many people do Tai Chi for decades without ever doing push hands, I personally don't agree with that.


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## Nyarlathotep (Jun 11, 2007)

Dmax is absolutely right, though I should just like to add that even if you don't ever intend to use your Taiji as a means of self defense push hands still has value.
Firstly it can demonstrate the purpose behind each posture and allow you to correct any deficiencies in your form.
It can also highlight any areas of tension within the movements and act as a first hand demonstration of the practical virtues of relaxation and yielding. (very important skills for any walk of life)


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## marlon (Jun 11, 2007)

just to be clear.  i am a martial arts practitioner, not a martial sport person nor a new ager looking for a fad and freaky experiences.  I practice martial arts.  So i guess i need a partner for push hands...any suggestions until i find one and how regular do i need to practice push hands

respectfully,
marlon


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## NanFeiShen (Jun 11, 2007)

marlon said:


> just to be clear.  i am a martial arts practitioner, not a martial sport person nor a new ager looking for a fad and freaky experiences.  I practice martial arts.  So i guess i need a partner for push hands...any suggestions until i find one and how regular do i need to practice push hands
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



One teacher i met said that if you have no partner to push hands with, practice "grasp birds tail" , (ward off, draw, press and push) over and over left and right, static, with stepping, and with turning. Slow speed, intermediate speed and fast. When fast, never so fast as to lose anything or any nuances of the movements.
Regular, every day, as often as possible, whenever possible.


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## marlon (Jun 11, 2007)

thank you.  that makes sense..the question is, is it enough or simply making do until i can find a push hands partner?  BTW when in ones training should push hands start?

respectfully,

Marlon


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## dmax999 (Jun 12, 2007)

The traditional answer I believe is six months to a year after learning the long form you should begin push hands training.  Everyone else will have their own opinion.

Hopefully your long form will change many times over once you start push hands.  It is difficult to learn some corrections untill you really know how to apply the postures.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 12, 2007)

Push hands is very important to Taiji and push hands is decidedly not fighting.


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## East Winds (Jun 13, 2007)

Xue Sheng_*

"......and push hands is decidedly not fighting".

*_Agreed. Unless you enter a Push Hands competition - then all the principles of Push Hands immediately go out of the window
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Very best wishes


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## pete (Jun 13, 2007)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Unless you enter a Push Hands competition - then all the principles of Push Hands immediately go out of the window


why is that? if those that throw principles out the window are 'winning', does that mean something? or, conversely, shouldn't an adept player clean up by using tai chi principles against his opponent?


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## East Winds (Jun 15, 2007)

Quite simply, Push Hands is a training tool. It was never meant to show who was the best
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Very best wishes


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