# WTF President : "New uniforms will further promote taekwondo"



## andyjeffries

The 63-year-old Choue and the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) have worked on introducing the new uniforms, to replace the existing gyorugi ones at the World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships starting on July 29 in Vladivostok, Russia.

This will be the first time the athletes will wear the new poomsae uniforms from the WTF, and it will be a meaningful event, Choue said.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/sports/2011/07/136_91429.html

Thought the article might be of interest to some on here...


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## andyjeffries

There are apparently retail partners now: http://www.jcalicu.com/index.files/Page606.htm


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## d1jinx

so, I will have to put on 1 uniform for Poomse, then run to the back, change uniforms and get ready for sparring?  Yeah, I dont se this catching on anytime soon at the lower levels.  maybe at a world championships, but not anytime oon elsewhere.


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## terryl965

I do not see this as an way of making TKD any better. What we need is a better and up to date curriculum, better support and more training sessions. As far as uniform man could they be any worst than what they picked as a way of improving TKD.


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## Cyriacus

Wh... How would Uniforms promote a Martial Art? I mean, i got a new Uniform recently made of tougher material, and i like it. But it hasnt improved my opinion of the whole Martial Art!

I guess it might be visually pleasing, though


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## Iwannakick

I like the way the one i have already looks


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## ATC

d1jinx said:


> so, I will have to put on 1 uniform for Poomse, then run to the back, change uniforms and get ready for sparring?  Yeah, I dont se this catching on anytime soon at the lower levels.  maybe at a world championships, but not anytime oon elsewhere.


Many do this already. I know that most of the schools and athletes that I know that do both Poomsae and fighting already use 2 different unis. The Poomsae uni is a little heavier and crisper for snap and pop, and the Sparring uni is always lighter and a bit losser.

However most top level athletes only do one or the other anyway. So only Poomsae or only Sparring. The top competitiors never do both.


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## msmitht

Mo money, mo money! They look silly, period.


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## StudentCarl

Packaging vs. substance
To me this is visuals rather than something that matters. Terry, I understand your idea about working on curriculum, but if WTF can't get people to go along with a change in packaging, how much harder would it be to get people to go along with a change in curriculum? Leadership earns respect by doing things that make a positive difference--it builds their credibility. For Kukkiwon or WTF to increase their credibility (same issue w/ USAT), they would need to do something that has a real and positive impact at the school and student level.


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## miguksaram

DJinx said:
			
		

> so, I will have to put on 1 uniform for Poomse, then run to the back,  change uniforms and get ready for sparring?  Yeah, I dont se this  catching on anytime soon at the lower levels.  maybe at a world  championships, but not anytime oon elsewhere.


Happens all the time in sport karate tournaments.  Heck I change uniforms at least twice for my divisions.   One for traditional forms, one for weapons and one for sparring.  Used to have one for creative forms as well.


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## miguksaram

So after July 29, where can we pick them up?  My wife is still over there and if they will be easily accessible, I will ask her to pick one up for the US Open Hanmadang.


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## terryl965

StudentCarl said:


> Packaging vs. substance
> To me this is visuals rather than something that matters. Terry, I understand your idea about working on curriculum, but if WTF can't get people to go along with a change in packaging, how much harder would it be to get people to go along with a change in curriculum? Leadership earns respect by doing things that make a positive difference--it builds their credibility. For Kukkiwon or WTF to increase their credibility (same issue w/ USAT), they would need to do something that has a real and positive impact at the school and student level.[/QUOTE
> 
> Student Carl I understand and when they demand it for all competitors I will follow just like always. I am not please or agree with this but sometime we must just do as they say if we belong to that org.


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## taekwondodo

If you guys are curious to what its look like, here is the site:  http://jcalicu.com/index.files/Page381.htm

For the sake of confusion, all of the World Poomsae competitors for this year will be wearing the Gold top/Blue pants for this year.  It will be free for us.  I will be wearing one for the 6th World Poomsae Competition.  I am curious on how I would look. Hmmm....


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## andyjeffries

taekwondodo said:


> If you guys are curious to what its look like, here is the site:  http://jcalicu.com/index.files/Page381.htm



There was a discussion thread about it recently on here, so we're all aware of the look and the debate was quite heated (do a quick search for it if you're interested).



taekwondodo said:


> For the sake of confusion, all of the World Poomsae competitors for this year will be wearing the Gold top/Blue pants for this year.  It will be free for us.  I will be wearing one for the 6th World Poomsae Competition.  I am curious on how I would look. Hmmm....



Post a picture on here so we can see a real one (rather than on a model)


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## troubleenuf

These are different than the ones we were discussing earlier?  How come the change?  Did they decide no one wanted to put on something that their grandma would have worn?  



andyjeffries said:


> There was a discussion thread about it recently on here, so we're all aware of the look and the debate was quite heated (do a quick search for it if you're interested).
> 
> 
> 
> Post a picture on here so we can see a real one (rather than on a model)


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## hungryninja

From my respective (and I being a Korean-American), I like the way they look because they are similar to Korea's traditional clothes.  Whether it is practical or not...I guess we shall see after the Poomsae competition.  But I like the look of the uniforms if the purpose of them were similar to "ceremonial" uniforms (e.g. ATA masters have ceremonial uniforms...but they can perform in them as well).  Other than that, based on an initial look, I don't think I would like to wear them as workout uniforms or while practicing poomsae.


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## ETinCYQX

I'm not a fan. I don't like the look but it goes far beyond that, I don't like what it means. 

Becoming "more Korean" as the WTF puts it is nothing other than bowing to pressure from groups who will never be a part of the WTF anyway. Especially the midnight blue belt. Trying to look more like Tang Soo Do will not impress the TSD people because they don't actually care what we do beyond a passing remark and looking more like Tang Soo Do will alienate the people like myself who, for some insane reason, have thought we were part of a TaeKwonDo organization. 

In my opinion we need to stand as KKW TaeKwonDoin, not as Korean, or American, or anything else. TKD is its own identity.

Again, I am proud to be a KKW member but I feel part of my responsibility is to be informed and have my own feelings on big changes like this.


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## ETinCYQX

miguksaram said:


> Happens all the time in sport karate tournaments.  Heck I change uniforms at least twice for my divisions.   One for traditional forms, one for weapons and one for sparring.  Used to have one for creative forms as well.



I change my Judo gi's in Shiai...but that's because I'm told to. Interesting about a different uniform for poomsae/kata/forms.


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## Markku P

I don't know what to think about this. I would like some new ideas but with more time and research!

/Markku P


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## granfire

msmitht said:


> Mo money, mo money! They look silly, period.



the master one looks like a startrek uni....or a cross between a trekkie and starwars....

what are the vests for? (they do look kinda nice....but somewhat out of place...)


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## troubleenuf

You know.. here is the deal.  If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change.  You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change.  Now if you are changing it what better reason could you change it than to encourage participation.  In any sport if you are going to encourage participation you need to look at the younger age for that participation.  So here is the what I am seeing lately from Korea.  
Forms:  Robotic type forms that do not encourage individual personality nor do they showcase Taekwondos dynamic kicking-  want to encourage youth- get rid of the "traditional forms" introduce "competition forms that actually showcase Taekwondos best stuff and reward those astounding high kicks and displays of athleticism.  Want to keep traditional forms... fine use them like skating does for prelims and then open up the non traditional froms for the finals.  Dang get something that is Dynamic... Use the BEST stuff we have and the stuff that the kids WANT to do and you will see participation spike!
Uniforms-  Dont designs something that your grandma would have worn... get someone to design something that is dynamic that the kids WANT to wear.  Something that looks cool, that has some style.  Hate to tell you... Grandmas gown aint going to make it.


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## andyjeffries

troubleenuf said:


> You know.. here is the deal.  If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change.  You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change.



But a valid reason for change could be as simple as "we prefer it".  The older generation that are in charge of groups like the WTF may prefer a more traditional Korean style outfit (and the Gyeonggibok is much more similar to a Hanbok).  If they prefer it, that's a valid reason for wanting to change it.

You may not agree with their reason, but they have them 

Personally I'm not a fan of a dark blue belt instead of black and I'm not a fan of yellow for the higher dans (but I'm not one so it doesn't affect me) - aside from that, I actually quite like them.  I plan to buy one when they come out (found out over the weekend who the UK distributor will be and I already have an account with them)...


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## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> I change my Judo gi's in Shiai...but that's because I'm told to. Interesting about a different uniform for poomsae/kata/forms.



It is not required to change uniforms.  I just do it because of the what I do in terms of the three divisions.  For traditional forms I wear my traditional karate uniform.  For weapons, I put on a hakama because I do a kumsul form.  For sparring I have a very light weight uniform that I put in that helps me move faster.  However, I could stay with just one uniform for all divisions if I wanted to.


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## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm not a fan. I don't like the look but it goes far beyond that, I don't like what it means.
> 
> Becoming "more Korean" as the WTF puts it is nothing other than bowing to pressure from groups who will never be a part of the WTF anyway. Especially the midnight blue belt. Trying to look more like Tang Soo Do will not impress the TSD people because they don't actually care what we do beyond a passing remark and looking more like Tang Soo Do will alienate the people like myself who, for some insane reason, have thought we were part of a TaeKwonDo organization.



What is wrong with dressing a bit more culturally?  It is a Korean art after all.  I don't hear objections to people having to dress more "Chinese" when doing kungfu or wushu.  Nor do I hear people objecting to dressing more Japanese when doing Kenjutsu.  So what is the hang up here?  



> In my opinion we need to stand as KKW TaeKwonDoin, not as Korean, or American, or anything else. TKD is its own identity.  Again, I am proud to be a KKW member but I feel part of my responsibility is to be informed and have my own feelings on big changes like this.


Keep in mind that this is not a KKW decision.  This is a WTF decision which only effects the national and world competition sanctioned by WTF.  So unless you are going to be competing at national and world level competitions sanctioned by WTF, it really shouldn't effect you at all.


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## miguksaram

troubleenuf said:


> You know.. here is the deal.  If you are going to change something there should be a reason for the change.  You should not be changing something just to simply change it for the sake of change.  Now if you are changing it what better reason could you change it than to encourage participation.  In any sport if you are going to encourage participation you need to look at the younger age for that participation.  So here is the what I am seeing lately from Korea.
> Forms:  Robotic type forms that do not encourage individual personality nor do they showcase Taekwondos dynamic kicking-  want to encourage youth- get rid of the "traditional forms" introduce "competition forms that actually showcase Taekwondos best stuff and reward those astounding high kicks and displays of athleticism.  Want to keep traditional forms... fine use them like skating does for prelims and then open up the non traditional froms for the finals.  Dang get something that is Dynamic... Use the BEST stuff we have and the stuff that the kids WANT to do and you will see participation spike!



So in essence you want to make it similar to sport karate tournaments?  I would like to see that as well.  Have separate divisions for traditional and creative forms.



> Uniforms-  Dont designs something that your grandma would have worn... get someone to design something that is dynamic that the kids WANT to wear.  Something that looks cool, that has some style.  Hate to tell you... Grandmas gown aint going to make it.



I would disagree to a point.  On the sport karate circuits you will see a lot of kids wearing traditional looking uniforms and designing to look "ancient".  I personally like this more cultural design in the uniform.  However, I do agree that if you split of forms division to a traditional and a creative then in creative they should allow the competitors to wear something modern if they wish.


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## ETinCYQX

miguksaram said:


> What is wrong with dressing a bit more culturally?  It is a Korean art after all.  I don't hear objections to people having to dress more "Chinese" when doing kungfu or wushu.  Nor do I hear people objecting to dressing more Japanese when doing Kenjutsu.  So what is the hang up here?



What is wrong with it is that by dressing "more Korean" you're distancing us from TaeKwonDo in my mind. These don't look anything like the TaeKwonDo dobok always has and I consider the Dobok part of our identity. 



miguksaram said:


> The problem is that Keep in mind that this is not a KKW decision.  This is a WTF decision which only effects the national and world competition sanctioned by WTF.  So unless you are going to be competing at national and world level competitions sanctioned by WTF, it really shouldn't effect you at all.


You're right, of course. Misspoke. As far as affecting me I probably won't compete in poomsae at all anytime soon let alone at a high level so no, no direct implications to me. It's just important to me to have knowledge of and an opinion on big changes like this.


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## ETinCYQX

miguksaram said:


> It is not required to change uniforms.  I just do it because of the what I do in terms of the three divisions.  For traditional forms I wear my traditional karate uniform.  For weapons, I put on a hakama because I do a kumsul form.  For sparring I have a very light weight uniform that I put in that helps me move faster.  However, I could stay with just one uniform for all divisions if I wanted to.


I knew what you meant, just not something I ever considered although maybe I should. Even 2 of the same uniforms would be nice so I'm not dripping wet after sparring.


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## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> What is wrong with it is that by dressing "more Korean" you're distancing us from TaeKwonDo in my mind. These don't look anything like the TaeKwonDo dobok always has and I consider the Dobok part of our identity.



How does it distnace you from TKD?  The uniforms don't look like the TKD dobok that you are familiar with, but then again, the uniform you are familiar with was not always what was associated wiht TKD?  Prior to the v-neck everyone wore crossover doboks.  Now you have TKD uniforms that are v-neck and different colors, but here is the thing, there are a lot of sport karate schools which also utilize the v-neck uniforms.  So if anything this type of movement away from the v-neck will be separate into a unique identity of being TKD.


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## miguksaram

ETinCYQX said:


> I knew what you meant, just not something I ever considered although maybe I should. Even 2 of the same uniforms would be nice so I'm not dripping wet after sparring.


Sparring is usually the last event on our plate.  I am happy about that, since the forms and weapons helps warm me up before hand.


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## MAist25

Anyone know why the website lists 1-3 Dan as Master? Ive never heard of a 1st Dan ever being considered a master...


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## andyjeffries

MAist25 said:


> Anyone know why the website lists 1-3 Dan as Master? Ive never heard of a 1st Dan ever being considered a master...



http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...e-Title-of-Sabun-Earned&p=1368376#post1368376

Puunui wrote:
"There was a statement from the Kukkiwon a while back that said that those who were 1st through 5th Dan were Master level, and those 6th Dan and higher were grandmaster level. I noticed after that came out, a whole lot more people started calling themselves Grandmaster.  Personally I think it was a mistranslation between yudanja (1st-5th dan) and Kodanja (6th Dan and higher)."


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## MAist25

Thanks. I was also thinking it had something to do with a mistranslation as well. I was sure as hell hoping the WTF wasnt beginning to regard 1st Dans as masters.


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## mastercole

It was not a mistranslation.  According to Kyong Myeong Lee, that main author of the Taekwondo information you find on the WTF, Kukkiwon, KTA and Korean Government websites and the Kukkiwon Textbook, it's correct.  According to the Kukkiwon Jidoja Yunsuwon instructors academy, it's also correct. According to the WTF, posted by them on their own website, it is also correct.

Master does not mean instructor.  Master is a courtesy title for Yudanja (1st Dan/Poom - 5th Dan), it's like Mister, or Ma'am.  Grandmaster does not mean instructor. Grandmaster is a courtesy title for Kodanja (6th Dan - 9th Dan).

Sabum means "instructor."

Of course every instructor makes up their own rules for the culture inside their dojang. So it is common for Taekwondoin in the USA to believe that 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th Dan is when you magically become a "master" and that means you are an instructor at some school. But not at the Kukkiwon.  You must for attend the instructors course, then pass the test. In order to do that, you have to hold Kukkiwon 4th Dan.  Of course in the USA, anything goes, including fancy black belts with big red and gold stripes around the middle, gold uniforms, etc.

There is what people do at their own dojang, then there is what Kukkiwon does.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> Master does not mean instructor.  Master is a courtesy title for Yudanja (1st Dan/Poom - 5th Dan), it's like Mister, or Ma'am.  Grandmaster does not mean instructor. Grandmaster is a courtesy title for Kodanja (6th Dan - 9th Dan).



What I meant by mistranslation was the yudanja usually translates to "dan holder" and kodanja usually translates to "old or senior dan holder". 
It also gets a little confusing because the KTA and WTF had an International Master Instructor (Kukje Sabum) certification program from the 70's through the early 90s, and the recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course certificates say "Master Instructor" (Sabum) now.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> What I meant by mistranslation was the yudanja usually translates to "dan holder" and kodanja usually translates to "old or senior dan holder".
> It also gets a little confusing because the KTA and WTF had an International Master Instructor (Kukje Sabum) certification program from the 70's through the early 90s, and the recent Kukkiwon Instructor Course certificates say "Master Instructor" (Sabum) now.



Oh. Actually I did not see your post, I should have quoted this post, that's what I was responding to



*MAist25* 




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[h=2]Re: WTF President : "New uniforms will further promote taekwondo"[/h]Thanks. I was also thinking it had something to do with a mistranslation as well. I was sure as hell hoping the WTF wasnt beginning to regard 1st Dans as masters.​


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> Oh. Actually I did not see your post, I should have quoted this post, that's what I was responding to



No worries. I remember it was you who wrote to the Kukkiwon and found out the Master/Yudanja and Grandmaster/Kodanja connections. And when that went out, the number of grandmasters went shooting up, especially among american practitioners.  However, I don't think those new grandmasters started referring to their 1st Dans as Master.


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## mastercole

puunui said:


> No worries. I remember it was you who wrote to the Kukkiwon and found out the Master/Yudanja and Grandmaster/Kodanja connections. And when that went out, the number of grandmasters went shooting up, especially among american practitioners.  However, I don't think those new grandmasters started referring to their 1st Dans as Master.



Interesting how that works   When I pass that information on other instructors I get the same strong rejection I got 14 years ago when I came back to the USA from the Kukkiwon instructor course, and we started telling everyone about the Kukkiwon standards that GM Hae Man Park had already been showing you and others for years . I'm glad to see they like the grandmaster situation, hopefully they will extend the like courtesy to their own black belt students and begin to recognized them as master.  I have been doing that in my schools for years.


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## puunui

mastercole said:


> When I pass that information on other instructors I get the same strong rejection I got 14 years ago when I came back to the USA from the Kukkiwon instructor course, and we started telling everyone about the Kukkiwon standards that GM Hae Man Park had already been showing you and others for years .



I'm kind of used to it at this point, people getting all mad at being exposed to a concept or idea that they don't like, at the moment, but then later that same concept becomes generally accepted. Short narrow stances is the example that always comes to mind. 




mastercole said:


> I'm glad to see they like the grandmaster situation, hopefully they will extend the like courtesy to their own black belt students and begin to recognized them as master.  I have been doing that in my schools for years.



I generally don't use titles at all for myself or my students, just first names is enough. For other people, I try to call them by the title that they themselves want to be called.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Since the links on previous pages do not seem to work, here is a picture. This is the dobok in question, is it not? If so, I like it. I think that it is a good change.

Regarding earlier comments about the curriculum needing to be addressed instead of the dobok, personally, I find nothing wrong with the curriculum as it is.  If there are things that specific kwanjangs feel should be there, then there is nothing stopping you from working those things into your own curriculum.

Personally, I think that hard and solid training in the existing curriculum is plenty.


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## dortiz

"I'm kind of used to it at this point, people getting all mad at being exposed to a concept or idea that they don't like, at the moment, but then later that same concept becomes generally accepted."

I find people do this in general with everything. Even catch myself : )

Hopefully as Martial Artists we continue to improve ourselves and fight that reaction and evaluate things for what they are. As for Billy at work I think he will just react this way to new changes until he leaves....


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is the dobok in question, is it not? If so, I like it. I think that it is a good change.



I don't particularly like it but if we are moving towards having individualized dobok, then I would simply allow competitors to wear whatever they wanted, within reason. For example, gymnastics and figure skating don't have strict rules on what color your performance costume should be, I don't think. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding earlier comments about the curriculum needing to be addressed instead of the dobok, personally, I find nothing wrong with the curriculum as it is.  If there are things that specific kwanjangs feel should be there, then there is nothing stopping you from working those things into your own curriculum. Personally, I think that hard and solid training in the existing curriculum is plenty.



I agree.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Have you seen one of these doboks?  I mean not just the drawing or a picture?  Sometimes things look better in person so to speak.


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## puunui

dortiz said:


> I find people do this in general with everything. Even catch myself : )




I catch myself doing it more the older I get. I wonder if it is me or if it is because the current leadership has a completely different viewpoint from the pioneers. I think it is a combination of both.


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Have you seen one of these doboks?  I mean not just the drawing or a picture?  Sometimes things look better in person so to speak.



No I haven't really seen it in person. I don't particularly care for the cross over aspect for taekwondo dobok as well as the colors. For taekwondo, I prefer a plain white v neck dobok with a black collar but no patches. For hapkido, I prefer a plain white single weave judo gi with no patches, even though I have other hapkido dobok as well. But if other people wish to wear that new competition dobok for daily dojang training, I wouldn't have any objection to it. Just my personal preference.


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## miguksaram

puunui said:


> I don't particularly like it but if we are moving towards having individualized dobok, then I would simply allow competitors to wear whatever they wanted, within reason. For example, gymnastics and figure skating don't have strict rules on what color your performance costume should be, I don't think.


This is very prevalent in sport martial art tournaments.  You see all different type of martial art uniform.  The main rule is that it be some sort of martial art uniform.  They don't care if it is cross over v-neck, sleeveless (for forms and weapons), etc.  

As for the new dobok, I like them.  I saw some pictures of them on people and they looked ok.  My only concern is how they feel when you are performing in them.


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I catch myself doing it more the older I get. I wonder if it is me or if it *is because the current leadership has a completely different viewpoint from the pioneers.* I think it is a combination of both.



In what way do you see their viewpoint as being different and do you see this new dobok as part of that?


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In what way do you see their viewpoint as being different and do you see this new dobok as part of that?



To me, the pioneers worked hard and more importantly worked together to create standardized things in taekwondo. Logos for example. Never did I ever think that the logos of the KTA, WTF and Kukkiwon would change, because there was hidden meaning behind the symbols which worked well together. Now all three organizations changed their logo, and with it, the hidden historical meanings have been lost. Dobok same thing. The v neck uniform is a trademark and symbol of taekwondo, which is both functional and stylish. Going to cross over with colors defeats that. The pioneers settled the uniform, logo, certificate, poomsae, sparring and other issues already, so why change what ain't broke? But, I am not in charge of these things, so I just go along with it, until such time as when I can make a difference, somewhere, somehow. 

A better example would be the bylaw changes that were implemented at USAT after 2004. The USTU bylaws up to that point represented 30 years of collective wisdom of the USTU leadership. The bylaws were modified over the years to make the system better. Then in 2004 it was changed to a completely different system, which I and others predicted would lead the USAT to ruin. Eight years later, the USAT is in ruins, on probation from the USOC and on the brink of bankruptcy due to a lack of financial and managerial capability. Now we have to figure out how to fix things, which ultimately means bringing back what our USTU pioneers created for us. 

Stuff like that.


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## mastercole

I'm for progress, so I guess it's a good thing for competition Poomsae. I'm bracing my self for a lot of "progress", coming soon. Careful what I have wished for all this time 

The more I see them, the more I'm OK with it. I have not seen it in person yet, but I have seen a lot of photos of them at the World Poomsae Championships. The company told me that they will be available very soon, so I will get one and check it out.

Keep in mind this has nothing to do with curriculum etc, or the Kukkiwon.  This is something from the WTF.


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## Twin Fist

"we have to wear this"

usually right after someone makes a deal for kick backs.....


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> "we have to wear this"
> 
> usually right after someone makes a deal for kick backs.....


I'm sorry, but I simply cannot see that as the motivation for this.


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## mastercole

Maybe they should switch over to one of those black wrap around uniforms with big over sized bright red sleeves with red trim. True bikerbilly stuff. Imagine wearing that while doing a mutant country bumpkin version of Sejong


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## Spookey

Check out Kidokwan . org for a full photo!


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## Twin Fist

then you are not trying very hard or you are overly optimistic

remember who we are talking about here, every single thing the KKW does they do to make money.

sad truth



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm sorry, but I simply cannot see that as the motivation for this.


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## puunui

Twin Fist said:


> then you are not trying very hard or you are overly optimistic
> 
> remember who we are talking about here, every single thing the KKW does they do to make money.
> 
> sad truth




Really? How about the World Taekwondo Hanmadang? The entry fee is zero and 4-5000 competitors regularly show up.


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## RobinTKD

puunui said:


> Really? How about the World Taekwondo Hanmadang? The entry fee is zero and 4-5000 competitors regularly show up.



I know it'll never happen, but I'd like to see both ITF and KKW practitioners compete at a Hanmadang.


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## puunui

RobinTKD said:


> I know it'll never happen, but I'd like to see both ITF and KKW practitioners compete at a Hanmadang.



It used to be that the USTU Junior Olympic Championships were the largest taekwondo tournament in the world. Now I think it is the World Hanmadang. I heard the ATA World Championships were large too, but never heard any numbers.


----------



## hungryninja

The ATA World Championships typically hosts > 4000 competitors.



puunui said:


> It used to be that the USTU Junior Olympic Championships were the largest taekwondo tournament in the world. Now I think it is the World Hanmadang. I heard the ATA World Championships were large too, but never heard any numbers.


----------



## ETinCYQX

For the record I hate these things still...my instructor likes them...guess who wins...lol. Such is life, he's much more interested in poomsae than I am anyway


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> then you are not trying very hard or you are overly optimistic


Perhaps you are trying too hard or you are overly pessimistic.



Twin Fist said:


> remember who we are talking about here, every single thing the KKW does they do to make money.
> 
> sad truth


As was mentioned earlier, this is the WTF and not the KKW.


----------



## puunui

hungryninja said:


> The ATA World Championships typically hosts > 4000 competitors.



I think that 10,000 competitors in 30 rings is not out of the question for USAT JOs.


----------



## Tez3

puunui said:


> Really? How about the World Taekwondo Hanmadang? The entry fee is zero and 4-5000 competitors regularly show up.



Deals with local businesses, hotels, taxi companies, catering places etc etc?


----------



## puunui

Tez3 said:


> Deals with local businesses, hotels, taxi companies, catering places etc etc?



No, they don't get any of that, all of which is handled by the host city directly. The Kukkiwon doesn't make anything off of the Hanmadang.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

puunui said:


> To me, the pioneers worked hard and more importantly worked together to create standardized things in taekwondo. Logos for example. Never did I ever think that the logos of the KTA, WTF and Kukkiwon would change, because there was hidden meaning behind the symbols which worked well together. Now all three organizations changed their logo, and with it, the hidden historical meanings have been lost. Dobok same thing. The v neck uniform is a trademark and symbol of taekwondo, which is both functional and stylish. Going to cross over with colors defeats that. The pioneers settled the uniform, logo, certificate, poomsae, sparring and other issues already, so why change what ain't broke? But, I am not in charge of these things, so I just go along with it, until such time as when I can make a difference, somewhere, somehow.
> 
> A better example would be the bylaw changes that were implemented at USAT after 2004. The USTU bylaws up to that point represented 30 years of collective wisdom of the USTU leadership. The bylaws were modified over the years to make the system better. Then in 2004 it was changed to a completely different system, which I and others predicted would lead the USAT to ruin. Eight years later, the USAT is in ruins, on probation from the USOC and on the brink of bankruptcy due to a lack of financial and managerial capability. Now we have to figure out how to fix things, which ultimately means bringing back what our USTU pioneers created for us.
> 
> Stuff like that.


Just a question regarding the v neck uniforms, when did they start wearing them in tkd? They are strictly forbidden where I train as our GM hates them with a passion. He has run clubs since the late 60's/early 70's and is big on tradition, so I assume they werent always a tkd thing, or were introduced at some point. Is this the case?


----------



## Twin Fist

i got some ocean front property in arizona i will give you a hell of a deal on.....



puunui said:


> No, they don't get any of that, all of which is handled by the host city directly. The Kukkiwon doesn't make anything off of the Hanmadang.


----------



## mastercole

ralphmcpherson said:


> Just a question regarding the v neck uniforms, when did they start wearing them in tkd? They are strictly forbidden where I train as our GM hates them with a passion. He has run clubs since the late 60's/early 70's and is big on tradition, so I assume they werent always a tkd thing, or were introduced at some point. Is this the case?



The "dobok" of Taekwondo was made the official uniform of Taekwondo in July of 1978. The design was chosen because it was more traditional than the wrap around "dogi" that came from Japanese Judo, as the "dobok" resembled the traditional Korean clothes that went back to ancient Korea called the "hanbok."  So placing "do" from Taekwondo, and "bok" from Hanbok together, we get a uniform that is traditional with modern convenience, and had great symbolic meaning to both Korean ancient times, and the core principles of "do", or Tao.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> No, they don't get any of that, all of which is handled by the host city directly. The Kukkiwon doesn't make anything off of the Hanmadang.



It's the private school owner, or private business associations that make money on tournaments and seminars. The Kukkiwon is actually very generous and gives many benefits to Taekwondoin.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> i got some ocean front property in arizona i will give you a hell of a deal on.....


I'm so glad you have first hand knowledge on the inner workings of the World Hanmadang and who makes money.  Perhaps you could share some of that in depth knowledge with us.  Perhaps you can start by letting us know who arranges the event and which person specifically is getting a kickback. Please...I await with much anticipation.


----------



## Twin Fist

you ever run a business? i have. first rule of business? dont do anything that doesnt turn a profit.

I call this "the Rule of duh"

give me a friggin break. The KKW, hell, every org is about making money. And the bigger they are, the more money they need to make to survive. Good intentions or not, that is just simple reality. And no i dont know specifics, because i refuse to be a slave to a corrupt korean org that does NOTHING for it's members other than suck money from them and apparently tell them what to wear......

edited to add, orgs certainly have the right to tell thier people what to wear. I mean the ATA has strict rules about such things too......


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> you ever run a business? i have. first rule of business? dont do anything that doesnt turn a profit.
> 
> I call this "the Rule of duh"


Yes, I have and as I always understood it, the first rule of business is that you need to invest money to make money.  However, I guess everyone has their own set of rules.



> give me a friggin break. The KKW, hell, every org is about making money. And the bigger they are, the more money they need to make to survive. Good intentions or not, that is just simple reality. And no i dont know specifics, because i refuse to be a slave to a corrupt korean org that does NOTHING for it's members other than suck money from them and apparently tell them what to wear......


I am not sure how many more times it has to be stated to you but it is the WTF who is asking people to wear specific uniforms when competing at WTF events.  This has nothing to do with KKW.  And neither KKW or WTF dictate what you have to wear in your school.  School owners dictate what students can wear.  And why is that such a huge deal to you?  Other sport organizations do the same thing.  You are mandated to wear specific style uniforms in order to compete in the event.  Please explain why WTF are bad people because they are implementing this rule for their events?  I suppose you just allow all your students to show up in shorts and t-shirts or whatever they please at your school and testing right?  

So what this breaks down to is that you don't know anything about what they do, how they do it, or why they do it.  Got it.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> you ever run a business? i have. first rule of business? dont do anything that doesnt turn a profit.
> 
> I call this "the Rule of duh"
> 
> give me a friggin break.



I run a studio and I do not do so for charity.  Every decision is not about making money.  If all the KKW heads were interested in was making money then they would not run an MA org.  They would take the money that they have made and bale to get into stocks or banking, where the only consideration is literally making money.  

The care and detail that went into the Kukkiwon text book is not indicative of an organization that is only about money.  

As for these new WTF doboks, if anything, I see it as being not about money.  Sorry, but if money were the sole consideration, they would not have come up with these doboks.   I mean really, what is the point?  They already have a sleek, modern dobok that people are very happy with and which is immediately recognizable as not only taekwondo, but KKW/WTF taekwondo specifically.  Why change?  I think that the answer is that they want to further emphasize the Korean heritage of the art.  You could make a case for this decision being motivated by nationalism, but not by greed.



Twin Fist said:


> The KKW, hell, every org is about making money. And the bigger they are, the more money they need to make to survive. Good intentions or not, that is just simple reality. And no i dont know specifics, because i refuse to be a slave to a corrupt korean org that does NOTHING for it's members other than suck money from them and apparently tell them what to wear......


Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that you were part of Jhoon Rhee's organizaiton.  If so, what does his organization do that the KKW, or in the case of this thread, the WTF, does not do?

Given that there is no membership dues for the WTF, how is it that they suck money from their members?  Aside from dan gradings, which are relatively few and far between (customers who only buy every few years are not the best customer base if making a fortune is your goal) how does the Kukkiwon suck money from its members?


----------



## jks9199

Folks,
Put a leash on the attacks.  Keep things friendly and to the topic, without bashing each other.


----------



## Twin Fist

i didnt say it was bad. i pointed out that there is almost certainly a financial gain for someone in this decision, and i am quite sure of it.

Now, in point of fact, i dislike being told what to wear at events, BUT i certainly see the logic in it.

and you dont know what i know, and saying you do is not only insulting it is decidedly ill informed,  i will take your apology now since i know you to be a fairly reasonable guy. And I will accept it with no reservation.

BTW- yeah, i have ZERO respect for the wtf since they promote a sport that SHOULD be called kickboxing, not TKD. And i DO know that one is over rank standards and whatnot and the other is other the sport

BUT

i will say that you cant really seperate the WTF and the KKW, they are two parts of one whole, feeding each other so i dont see much difference in them. .




miguksaram said:


> Yes, I have and as I always understood it, the first rule of business is that you need to invest money to make money.  However, I guess everyone has their own set of rules.
> 
> 
> I am not sure how many more times it has to be stated to you but it is the WTF who is asking people to wear specific uniforms when competing at WTF events.  This has nothing to do with KKW.  And neither KKW or WTF dictate what you have to wear in your school.  School owners dictate what students can wear.  And why is that such a huge deal to you?  Other sport organizations do the same thing.  You are mandated to wear specific style uniforms in order to compete in the event.  Please explain why WTF are bad people because they are implementing this rule for their events?  I suppose you just allow all your students to show up in shorts and t-shirts or whatever they please at your school and testing right?
> 
> So what this breaks down to is that you don't know anything about what they do, how they do it, or why they do it.  Got it.


----------



## Twin Fist

Daniel,
I have, in my entire life only joined TWO orgs related to martial arts

the southwest karate association, a collection of 6 schools that all taught the same exact system and tested together, yes, it made money, and guess what? the head of the org? just so happened to sell the patches. that everyone HAD to wear

the IKKA-joining was mandatory to test for rank in the Ed Parker system at the school i was at

I have never been under any org ran by GM Rhee.

I dislike orgs the same way i dislike unions, and for the same reasons.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I run a studio and I do not do so for charity.  Every decision is not about making money.  If all the KKW heads were interested in was making money then they would not run an MA org.  They would take the money that they have made and bale to get into stocks or banking, where the only consideration is literally making money.
> 
> The care and detail that went into the Kukkiwon text book is not indicative of an organization that is only about money.
> 
> As for these new WTF doboks, if anything, I see it as being not about money.  Sorry, but if money were the sole consideration, they would not have come up with these doboks.   I mean really, what is the point?  They already have a sleek, modern dobok that people are very happy with and which is immediately recognizable as not only taekwondo, but KKW/WTF taekwondo specifically.  Why change?  I think that the answer is that they want to further emphasize the Korean heritage of the art.  You could make a case for this decision being motivated by nationalism, but not by greed.
> 
> 
> Perhaps I'm wrong, but I thought that you were part of Jhoon Rhee's organizaiton.  If so, what does his organization do that the KKW, or in the case of this thread, the WTF, does not do?
> 
> Given that there is no membership dues for the WTF, how is it that they suck money from their members?  Aside from dan gradings, which are relatively few and far between (customers who only buy every few years are not the best customer base if making a fortune is your goal) how does the Kukkiwon suck money from its members?


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> and you dont know what i know, and saying you do is not only insulting it is decidedly ill informed,  i will take your apology now since i know you to be a fairly reasonable guy. And I will accept it with no reservation.



Which is why I asked you to enlighten us with your knowledge about the inner workings of the KKW and the Word Hanmadang and who is getting the kick backs from the, and I paraphrase your words, "greedy corrupt Koreans" as you have so often called them, which by the way is not only racist, but very insulting to my family as my wife is Korean.  So since I am a reasonable, you show me your knowledge about the inner workings of the KKW and the Word Hanmadang and who is getting the kick backs, plus an added apology for insulting my wife and many of my friends both KKW Koreans and just regular folks, and I will be glad to reciprocate the emotion and admit I was totally wrong about what you know.  Until then I stand by what I say.


----------



## Twin Fist

mentioning race does not equate to racism.

I am quite sure there are many greedy corrupt americans involved in the kkw/wtf. we see stories about it constantly.

and i know tournaments. we used to throw a small one, only about 400 people. we made about 30K off it. percentages off gate, entry fees, equipment sales, snack bar, hotels, etc lots of money to be made, and the bigger the tourny, the more money to make.

so yeah, people throw tournaments to make money. If they didnt make money, they couldnt do it.

and yeah, the KKW is CORRUPT, they flat out made up a history, that was FALSE and they published it and continue to push this LIE on people. That equals corruption. Sorry to break it to you.

YOU are getting personal, and the mods have already gotten involved once. Just ease down.


----------



## miguksaram

Twin Fist said:


> mentioning race does not equate to racism.
> 
> I am quite sure there are many greedy corrupt americans involved in the kkw/wtf. we see stories about it constantly.


But that is not the statement you made was it.  Here is your statement:


> look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars


No where did you mention whites, blacks, hispanics, chinese, japanese, etc...you only pointed out Koreans and not just in the KKW but in martial arts in general.  So yes...I find that being quite racist not to mention just plain ignorant and stupid.  I have many good friends who are Korean and in martial arts..not just in Taekwondo, but Okinawan, Arnis, MMA and yes, even Kenpo. 



> and i know tournaments. we used to throw a small one, only about 400 people. we made about 30K off it. percentages off gate, entry fees, equipment sales, snack bar, hotels, etc lots of money to be made, and the bigger the tourny, the more money to make.


Well good for you, but that still does not equate to knowing the inner workings of the Hanmadang or what the KKW does and does not do for it.  What actual facts do you know about the World Hanmadang?  What facts do you have to support your claim that KKW profits off of all of this or receives kickbacks.  I really do not care about your experience in your little world of tournaments.  I never said you did not know crap about throwing a tournament.  I said you did not know crap about the World Hanmadang or the inner workings of the KKW.  You want me to apologize for this assumption but you have yet to show me being wrong.



> YOU are getting personal, and the mods have already gotten involved once. Just ease down.


Actually you made it personal when you insulted people who I know.  Not to mention, you made it personal when you demanded an apology from me without giving me any proof to show me I had something to apologize for.  Perhaps your pride is too big to admit that your statement about Koreans was too general and too racist and say you are sorry for it.  Perhaps you really are just an ignorant person who believes that to be true.  I don't know.  What I do know is that once you make general statements about a certain race without proof that the whole race is like that, then guess what...you are being racist.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

For the love of Pete!  Here's another thread about to be locked by the mods.


----------



## Twin Fist

one last time, quit insulting me personally. 

No one insulted YOU, so cut it out.


----------



## jks9199

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.  Please avoid personal attacks.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst. Administrator
*


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Daniel Sullivan said:


> For the love of Pete!  Here's another thread about to be locked by the mods.



*Last friendly warning folks.  Drop the heat. We really don't want to end up locking threads, and having to go -heavy- in here. 

Help us out and just cool it a bit please?

Thanks.

*


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

I've said all that I have to say on this thread. 

Peace.


----------



## miguksaram

Bob Hubbard said:


> *Last friendly warning folks.  Drop the heat. We really don't want to end up locking threads, and having to go -heavy- in here.
> 
> Help us out and just cool it a bit please?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> *


I just want to know where the line is.  It's OK to call a specific race thieves and liars, but it is not OK to outwardly state your suspicion of a member of this site to be ignorant or a racist for stating something like that.

I guess I'm done too.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

miguksaram said:


> I just want to know where the line is.  It's OK to call a specific race thieves and liars, but it is not OK to outwardly state your suspicion of a member of this site to be ignorant or a racist for stating something like that.
> 
> I guess I'm done too.



"Korean" is not a race. However broad painting of any group is not an acceptable debate tactic here, and the TKD area is not the Study.
We're saying you are welcome to discuss the issue/matter/topic however the insults on -both- sides aren't welcome. 
This and previous notices are public, no fingers pointed warnings that are on par with someone saying 'hey, relax' hoping to keep things from descending to a bar fight with the cops called.

As to the exact line, it's here.


----------



## andyjeffries

Hi Bob, 

I don't know if you're just stepping in as a moderator or joining the discussion, but as it's a public forum/discussion group, I'd like to discuss your posting ;-)



Bob Hubbard said:


> "Korean" is not a race.



One way "race" is defined is:

_"A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, *nationality*, or *geographic distribution*: the German race."_

Under that definition Korean surely can be considered a race.

As a more precise definition, by the United Nations Resolution the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, Article 1:

_"In this Convention, the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin"_

Now, while race is explicitly listed (probably to be clear that race has other, more restrictive definitions) it considers that national origin can be a source of "racial discrimination".



Bob Hubbard said:


> As to the exact line, it's here.



Thank you for the link.  I'd like to quote part of section 1.8:

_"Threads or *replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group* (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated."
_
How does the quote:

_"look, the cold hard reality is when it comes to martial arts? koreans are thieves and liars"_

Not count as expressing an intolerant view towards any group, even disgregarding considering "Korean" to be a race or not?

Full disclosure: Because of the type of views expressed by Twin Fist in the past, he's in my ignore list so I only get to read his posts second-hand when people take the bait. This doesn't make me necessarily biased against him, just that if you don't like someone's views, ignore them.

Edit: Of course, your simple answer to this may be "this is my house, my interpretation, my rules, my ball", but hopefully you'll answer the points so that we can all learn where the boundaries are.


----------



## Twin Fist

love you too andy *kiss kiss*

maybe i should have said 

"korean martial arts are pretty much all based on theft and lies"


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Andy, to put it simply, I don't accept the UN's definition of a nationality as a race. So I don't see "Korean" as a race any more than I do "American". So that part's a personal interpretation. That said, if my staff on review sees a problem, and reaches a consensus I usually back that over personal interpretation. MT's moderation does it's best to be fair and free of personal bias or 'The Bob Show' admining.

My jumping in was to make a friendly push for civility, and back my staff who are engaged officially. At this point, I'm just 'here' as it were.

The rules the rule, and our policies always been to warn first, try to cool things off, and get things back on track before bringing out the stick.   It does mean we 'say stop' alot, and people keep on going regardless. Which is why some get infractions, limited access and sometimes booted.

It's never been our position to act as 'thought police', or 'censors' (outside of a profanity filter), as long as our rules are followed.

While I understand the complaint about TF's statement, I don't see it as racist.
Poorly phrased, rude and an ignorant blanket painting of an entire culture yes. Racist no.
Of course the rude and blanket part are of note, and are being discussed and noted in the back, which is why (in part) the warning and my nudge were placed.

As to 'where are the lines', they're blurred, because we try to let everyone work things out themselves before we have to really get involved. That whole 'you're all adults, we're not babysitters and people hate when they are treated like kids and we hate having to be heavy handed'. thing, y'know?

Hope that helps and we can get back to the uniform discussion.  
:asian:


----------



## MSUTKD

New Uniforms. 
 I wore one at Worlds and did not really like it much but I did not pay anything for it; it was given to every player.  New uniforms are NOT about money they are about evolving taekwondos identity.


----------



## Twin Fist

anyone got a pic?


----------



## mastercole

MSUTKD said:


> New Uniforms.
> I wore one at World&#8217;s and did not really like it much but I did not pay anything for it; it was given to every player.  New uniforms are NOT about money they are about evolving taekwondos&#8217; identity.



This coming from someone who actually participated, wore one and knows what they are for. Imagine that, first hand knowledge.


----------



## ETinCYQX

Just to clarify these are specifically for poomsae competition correct? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anyone yet d


----------



## mastercole

ETinCYQX said:


> Just to clarify these are specifically for poomsae competition correct? I haven't gotten a straight answer out of anyone yet d



Yes, they were specifically for the competitors who competed at the WTF World Poomsae Championships.


----------



## Archtkd

mastercole said:


> Master does not mean instructor.  Master is a courtesy title for Yudanja (1st Dan/Poom - 5th Dan), it's like Mister, or Ma'am.  Grandmaster does not mean instructor. Grandmaster is a courtesy title for Kodanja (6th Dan - 9th Dan).
> 
> Sabum means "instructor."
> 
> Of course every instructor makes up their own rules for the culture inside their dojang. So it is common for Taekwondoin in the USA to believe that 4th, 5th, 6th or 7th Dan is when you magically become a "master" and that means you are an instructor at some school. But not at the Kukkiwon.  You must for attend the instructors course, then pass the test. In order to do that, you have to hold Kukkiwon 4th Dan.  Of course in the USA, anything goes, including fancy black belts with big red and gold stripes around the middle, gold uniforms, etc.
> 
> There is what people do at their own dojang, then there is what Kukkiwon does.



I usually don't like regurgitating old topics, but I was wondering. Are there different Korean names to correspond with the different levels (Level-III, Level-II and Level- I) of  Kukkiwon certified instructors or they are all referred to as sabum?


----------



## mastercole

Archtkd said:


> I usually don't like regurgitating old topics, but I was wondering. Are there different Korean names to correspond with the different levels (Level-III, Level-II and Level- I) of  Kukkiwon certified instructors or they are all referred to as sabum?



In Korean, the Kukkiwon classify's Sabum as "sam geup", "ee geup" and "il geup".  They are all refereed to as Sabum.


----------



## MSUTKD

Twin Fist said:


> anyone got a pic?



If you have not seen the new uniform designs then why criticize them?  I believe they have been posted before.  When the Taekwondo Park opens they want to &#8220;re-energize&#8221; taekwondos identity.  We can disagree about the design but I do not believe it has anything to do with money.  I think they are just trying to make things better. 

 With all the &#8220;bad&#8221; words about taekwondo I can assure you that good people (Koreans, Americans, Europeans, Africans, Pacific&#8217;s, and Asians) are on the case.  The leadership in Korea is trying, as is the other nations, to make this right. With all of the negative speak about sport; sport can unite the world in a way that is magic.  I am saying this because I have been there and I have experienced it myself.
If you think that martial art and sport are not the same then get off your butt, train for real, make a US Team and see the world.  You will see what Korea has done with taekwondo and be humbled and amazed at the martial art that is very present.


----------



## puunui

Archtkd said:


> Are there different Korean names to correspond with the different levels (Level-III, Level-II and Level- I) of  Kukkiwon certified instructors or they are all referred to as sabum?



It is right on the certificates, guep, which is what mastercole said. that translates into "class", 3rd class, 2nd class, 1st class. It is the same designation as the WTF International Referee status and Kukkiwon Hanmadang IR status.


----------



## ralphmcpherson

Twin Fist said:


> anyone got a pic?



Do yourself a favour and check them out. In my opinion they look hillarious. I was telling some people about them at a tkd camp recently. One of the guys there downloaded pictures of the new uniforms on his phone and passed it around. People laughed so hard they were literally choking on their beer. Really funny stuff.


----------



## ETinCYQX

ralphmcpherson said:


> Do yourself a favour and check them out. In my opinion they look hillarious. I was telling some people about them at a tkd camp recently. One of the guys there downloaded pictures of the new uniforms on his phone and passed it around. People laughed so hard they were literally choking on their beer. Really funny stuff.



It's ridiculously hard to try and keep a straight face while you choke on your beer, BTW  Apparently I'm the only regional instructor who thinks they're, um, somewhat goofy especially with the overcoat.


----------



## taekwondodo

ETinCYQX said:


> It's ridiculously hard to try and keep a straight face while you choke on your beer, BTW  Apparently I'm the only regional instructor who thinks they're, um, somewhat goofy especially with the overcoat.



Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship.  Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back.  There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it.  When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform".  Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member"  I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.


----------



## mastercole

taekwondodo said:


> Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship.  Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back.  There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it.  When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform".  Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member"  I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.



Excellent post. I am not up on what is and what is not fashionable, however, from what this Poomsae Team member wrote I just learned something that might or might not have been intentional on the part of the WTF.  These uniforms are a GREAT marketing tool to bring attention to the World Poomsae Championships. 

I know if I saw someone wearing one, the first thing I would be tempted to do is to ask them about their experience at the World Poomsae Championships. Then I might ask them for some details on Poomsae performance or techniques. So weather I like them or not, I like the result.


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## MSUTKD

taekwondodo said:


> Yeah..I think its funny looking too.. but damn it, I earned my right to wear that funny uniform at the 6th World Poomsae Championship.  Its unique with a not so pleasant looking color but and it has a peel off USA label on the back.  There are only FEW competitors in the world earned that right to wear it and I am so proud to wear it.  When I wear it in a tournament, I will stand out and they will say.. hey that lady wearing the ugly looking uniform that has huge letters USA on the spot and they will ask " whats up with the uniform".  Then I will tell them "I am one of the USA Poomsae Team member"  I can only say there is only one on this board can say the same.



Thanks for jumping in teammate. I have to admit though, I will not be wearing it to any other tournaments, 
i believe what mastercole says is correct, it brings poomsae some needed attention.


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## puunui

MSUTKD said:


> I have to admit though, I will not be wearing it to any other tournaments



Why not? Do you wear it during practice?


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## Archtkd

ralphmcpherson said:


> Do yourself a favour and check them out. In my opinion they look hillarious. I was telling some people about them at a tkd camp recently. One of the guys there downloaded pictures of the new uniforms on his phone and passed it around. People laughed so hard they were literally choking on their beer. Really funny stuff.



And it might be fair to bet that those folks choking on their beer, with laughter, have never, and are not likely to ever represent their country in anything of significance, leave alone taekwondo. It takes zero effort and imagination to laugh and sneer at things one knows very little about.


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## ETinCYQX

Archtkd said:


> And it might be fair to bet that those folks choking on their beer, with laughter, have never, and are not likely to ever represent their country in anything of significance, leave alone taekwondo. It takes zero effort and imagination to laugh and sneer at things one knows very little about.


 
That's a bit of a stretch, isn't it. I just think the uniform is goofy looking, doesn't detract from anyone's accomplishments. I've already outlined why I prefer the V neck dobok and I have my reasons aside from it looking goofy, which IMO it does.


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## tigycho

I was asked whether this uniform was to become the required uniform for WTF poomsae competition, and I had assumed so, but I can't find anything online to support that.

In fact, outside of forum posts, and the J-Calicu site, I'm having trouble finding anything concrete other than the uniform is a Poomsae uniform.

I'm wondering if the new Calicu uniforms are required now?  If not, do we know that they will be?


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## puunui

tigycho said:


> I was asked whether this uniform was to become the required uniform for WTF poomsae competition, and I had assumed so, but I can't find anything online to support that.
> 
> In fact, outside of forum posts, and the J-Calicu site, I'm having trouble finding anything concrete other than the uniform is a Poomsae uniform.
> 
> I'm wondering if the new Calicu uniforms are required now?  If not, do we know that they will be?



It was mentioned as required in this invitation package to the world poomsae championships. 

http://www.wtf.org/bbs/bbs.php?bbs_...=505&page=6&search=&keyword=&symode=view#btop

click on the first pdf file and scroll down. But I believe this was only for the last wtf poomsae championships only. You might wish to check the WTF poomsae competition rules for what is required. I do not believe those uniforms are required for USAT poomsae competition.


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## Daniel Sullivan

Anymore news on this? Are these available yet?

As for what it looks like, there was a picture of the actual dobok in the link. To those who say that it looks 'goofy', I disagree.  They look quite attractive in my opinion.


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## ETinCYQX

It's not bad looking I guess but it's not Taekwondo to me. I got rid of my crossover dobok when I switched to KKW.


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## Dirty Dog

I'm actually fine with the crossover dobak, and even the 'simulated' crossover on these. 
I'm not a fan of the bathrobe though, nor of the gender- and rank-specific colors. We already have a perfectly good, functional, and widely understood method of indicating rank. And gender confusion isn't really an issue at a competitive TKD event, is it?


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## puunui

they are probably available in korea. do you want one?


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## Daniel Sullivan

Are you kidding?  I'd love one!


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Are you kidding?  I'd love one!



Which one and what size?


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Which one and what size?


The men's 'not a grandmaster'; I guess that is the white top with the navy pants and blue vest.  I think that is how it is broken down.  I wear a six.

Thanks!


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## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The men's 'not a grandmaster'; I guess that is the white top with the navy pants and blue vest.  I think that is how it is broken down.  I wear a six.
> 
> Thanks!



Let me see what I can do.


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## miguksaram

puunui said:


> they are probably available in korea. do you want one?


I would love to get one too.  It would be fun maybe for Hanmadang.


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## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Let me see what I can do.


Thanks!  Let me know what I need to do at my end.

One question that I had when I first saw this: do you wear a belt over the vest or under it?  Or not at all?


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## Twin Fist

doesnt matter to me as it doesnt effect me, but think all the ones in the picture look fine.

but you shouldnt take my word for it, i am not known for my karate fashion sense. I think tucking your top into your pants looks good.......


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## Daniel Sullivan

Twin Fist said:


> doesnt matter to me as it doesnt effect me, but think all the ones in the picture look fine.


I like the fact that they actually look like a hanbok and don't look like they'd lend themselves well the 'so-many-patches-you-could-be-in-Nascar' look.



Twin Fist said:


> I think tucking your top into your pants looks good.......


Hankido doboks have the wide, flowing pants and they tuck the top in as well.  And yes, it does look good.


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## Twin Fist

i also like the KSW's general's uniforms...sharp


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## ETinCYQX

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I like the fact that they actually look like a hanbok and don't look like they'd lend themselves well the 'so-many-patches-you-could-be-in-Nascar' look.
> 
> 
> Hankido doboks have the wide, flowing pants and they tuck the top in as well.  And yes, it does look good.



I am guilty of the tarted up doboks. I can't help it, I like it...

Right now I've only got our federation crest on my left chest, but the dobok I bought has the three Adidas stripes down the leg, three stripes on the shoulders, "Adidas" down the left arm and about fourteen adidas logos wherever they could stick it. I almost bought a Kwon uniform too but I preferred the Adidas. My old dobok has the same crest and "Woo Young's Taekwondo" down one arm and sleeve.


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## ETinCYQX

Twin Fist said:


> doesnt matter to me as it doesnt effect me, but think all the ones in the picture look fine.
> 
> but you shouldnt take my word for it, i am not known for my karate fashion sense. I think tucking your top into your pants looks good.......



One of the local instructors does that, with a KKW style pullover dobok, and it mystifies me. I think it's weird looking. He's probably one of the best all around Taekwondoin I know though so his fashion sense can go unquestioned...


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## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> One of the local instructors does that, with a KKW style pullover dobok, and it mystifies me. I think it's weird looking. He's probably one of the best all around Taekwondoin I know though so his fashion sense can go unquestioned...



I believe they do that on the open point circuit, tuck the top into the pants.


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## ETinCYQX

Really? Any idea what the logic is behind it?


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## puunui

ETinCYQX said:


> Really? Any idea what the logic is behind it?



I think they think it looks nice.


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## Daniel Sullivan

ETinCYQX said:


> I am guilty of the tarted up doboks. I can't help it, I like it...
> 
> Right now I've only got our federation crest on my left chest, but the dobok I bought has the three Adidas stripes down the leg, three stripes on the shoulders, "Adidas" down the left arm and about fourteen adidas logos wherever they could stick it. I almost bought a Kwon uniform too but I preferred the Adidas. My old dobok has the same crest and "Woo Young's Taekwondo" down one arm and sleeve.


I have one too.  It has my former school's logo on the back as a ten inch print, the USA and Korean flags on the left and right chest, the WTF patch on the left arm, my former GM's kumdo federation (the one he started) on the right, and a USAT patch on the left arm below the WTF patch.


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## MSUTKD

Just go to www.kicksport.com or www.jcalicu.com if you want one of these uniforms.


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## puunui

So I looked into it, reached out and here is what I found out on the status of those wtf poomsae uniforms. They aren't sold in korea. They aren't sold anywhere. The ones used at the last World Poomsae Championships were prototypes that the company wanted to test out under actual conditions. They are finalizing the designs now or have just completed finalizing the designs. The company that has the license spent a lot of money on that license and when the products roll out, it will be hopefully as available as an adidas v neck uniform. It will probably be available at the usual places taekwondoin go for stuff in the US, ken's, best/sang moo sa, vision, dynamics, awma, maybe century. There will be distribution in Europe as well. So patience, and it will be there for everyone to purchase.


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## MSUTKD

Many people have bought them as recently as two weeks ago.  Go to the JaCali website and email them.


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## andyjeffries

puunui said:


> So I looked into it, reached out and here is what I found out on the status of those wtf poomsae uniforms. They aren't sold in korea. They aren't sold anywhere. The ones used at the last World Poomsae Championships were prototypes that the company wanted to test out under actual conditions. They are finalizing the designs now or have just completed finalizing the designs. The company that has the license spent a lot of money on that license and when the products roll out, it will be hopefully as available as an adidas v neck uniform. It will probably be available at the usual places taekwondoin go for stuff in the US, ken's, best/sang moo sa, vision, dynamics, awma, maybe century. There will be distribution in Europe as well. So patience, and it will be there for everyone to purchase.




There was a small selection of sizes/colours available through www.kicksport.com a month or so ago, the official J-Calicu UK distributor.  They were due to get a larger range of sizes "soon", but since then the J-Calicu range seems to have come off their site (although it's still listed as a brand they stock).


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## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> There was a small selection of sizes/colours available through www.kicksport.com a month or so ago, the official J-Calicu UK distributor.  They were due to get a larger range of sizes "soon", but since then the J-Calicu range seems to have come off their site (although it's still listed as a brand they stock).



That might have been part of that original batch of prototype dobok. I don't know how different the designs or material will be, but I am told new "finalized" ones are coming out. kicksport probably will be one of the first places to get the dobok. It could be any day now.


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## ralphmcpherson

I





ETinCYQX said:


> I am guilty of the tarted up doboks. I can't help it, I like it...
> 
> Right now I've only got our federation crest on my left chest, but the dobok I bought has the three Adidas stripes down the leg, three stripes on the shoulders, "Adidas" down the left arm and about fourteen adidas logos wherever they could stick it. I almost bought a Kwon uniform too but I preferred the Adidas. My old dobok has the same crest and "Woo Young's Taekwondo" down one arm and sleeve.


We arent allowed anything on our uniform except one club patch. Even the brand logo of the uniform must be removed if visible. I wanted an adidas uniform at one point but it had adidas logos all over it and I thought the uniform would probably fall apart if I unpicked all the logos


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## miguksaram

MSUTKD said:


> Just go to www.kicksport.com or www.jcalicu.com if you want one of these uniforms.



I couldn't find them on the kicksport.com.  Do you by chance have a direct link?  Thank you.


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## andyjeffries

miguksaram said:


> I couldn't find them on the kicksport.com.  Do you by chance have a direct link?  Thank you.



I just spoke to my contact at Kicksport.  They only got a handful in of each of a few sizes, with the idea being that they were promo pieces for the distributors.  They decided to open them up for sale to the public and they went like hot cakes.

They are expecting the first major shipment in all sizes, etc in April and they'll go back on the site as soon as they're in stock.


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## andyjeffries

By the way, I have an instructor account with Kicksport.  If any of my US friends want them buying here and sending over (if you have difficulty obtaining them and if Kicksport don't ship internationally), I'm happy to buy them and forward them over.


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## puunui

andyjeffries said:


> They are expecting the first major shipment in all sizes, etc in April and they'll go back on the site as soon as they're in stock.



They will be rolling out more than just poomsae uniforms, but also sparring gear, regular v neck uniforms, and maybe training equipment like paddles as such as well.


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## miguksaram

puunui said:


> I believe they do that on the open point circuit, tuck the top into the pants.


Those that do that have a specific sparring uniform they use (Rek Suit, Top 10, etc.).  I have a Top 10 fighting uniform that I use.  I really don't tuck in the shirt though.  That is just my own preference though.


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## miguksaram

andyjeffries said:


> By the way, I have an instructor account with Kicksport.  If any of my US friends want them buying here and sending over (if you have difficulty obtaining them and if Kicksport don't ship internationally), I'm happy to buy them and forward them over.


  I contacted Mr. Lim over at JCalicu.  He said they are finishing up the final touches and will be offering them soon.  He asked to send him the contact information on who I usually buy my uniforms from, so that he can contact them about distribution.  Hopefully we will have a source here soon as well.


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## puunui

miguksaram said:


> I contacted Mr. Lim over at JCalicu.  He said they are finishing up the final touches and will be offering them soon.



Finishing up the final touches on the poomsae uniforms?


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## taekwondodo

miguksaram said:


> I contacted Mr. Lim over at JCalicu.  He said they are finishing up the final touches and will be offering them soon.  He asked to send him the contact information on who I usually buy my uniforms from, so that he can contact them about distribution.  Hopefully we will have a source here soon as well.



I was under the impression that there were modification on the uniform based on the feed back from the survey sent out to all of the athletes, and coaches at the last Poomsae World.  I also was notifiy by the official distributor that their is a small changes in the color, ie. the "tone" and modification to the "function" of the Uniform.  There were many complaints that the uniform get busted wide open while the men perform their forms.  Also, when it got wet, ie..sweaty, it looks very unappealing to the eyes.


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## miguksaram

puunui said:


> Finishing up the final touches on the poomsae uniforms?



His exact words were 





			
				Jacky Lim said:
			
		

> We are just finalising all of our products after months of attention to form, function and aesthetics.


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## Archtkd

miguksaram said:


> His exact words were



It's now official: The new design poomsae uniforms will be mandatory for international WTF events. Here's an excerpt of the WTF notice a full version of which can be found through the link below. The design does not seem to change the black belt color to a deep maroon blue as earlier suggested. Also the new rules enforce poom belt colors and poom uniform collars for junior (poom) blackbelts. The WTF also seems to have clarified (yet again) the master, master instructor and grandmaster issue. Masters are 1-3rd dan; master instructors 4th-6th dan, and grandmasters 7th-9th dan.

http://www.wtf.org/bbs/bbs.php?bbs_...ew&PHPSESSID=ada005a867053c90c574e7f6746c3c64

"Following  the decision of the mandatory use of the Poomsae competition uniform at  the WTF-promoted Poomsae championships at the WTF Council Meeting and  WTF General Assembly held in Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt on April 2 and 3,  2012, *all athletes to  participate in the WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships are  requested to wear Poomsae competition uniforms according to their Dan or  Poom grade beginning in the coming 2012 WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae  Championships to be held in Medellin, Colombia from December 6-9, 2012.*

  WTF-recognized  Poomsae competition uniform varies according to the grade of Dan or  Poom. Details of the Poomsae competition uniform for holders of Poom  holders, Dan holders and Grand Masters holding high Dan.  Please see the attached document on Poomsae competition uniforms for Poom holders, Dan holders and Grand Masters.  Please be informed `Pho on page 13 is not worn at the time of matches."


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