# Boy dies from headlock. Are you prepared?



## Hanzou (Oct 30, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;OfRCh_xth6Q]http://youtu.be/OfRCh_xth6Q[/video]

Warning, video is a bit disturbing....

One of the better Gracie Breakdowns honestly. I couldn't find the original clip. Anyway, the cool thing about this vid is that it shows the  bjj response to the headlock, which I think are very good. The headlock is a very common and potentially fatal move that is simple to perform for even the untrained. 

What is your style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?


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## elder999 (Oct 30, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Warning, video is a bit disturbing....




Let me get this straight......a headlock is...potentially lethal?



Hanzou said:


> What is your style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?



A "headlock" is a "killing technique????"

:lfao:



Hanzou said:


> What is your style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?




Pretty much exactly the same things.....of course, BJJ is mostly judo.....


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Let me get this straight......a headlock is...potentially lethal?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Um yes. It is lethal.


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2014)

I do like the standing nose grind to the guillotine.


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## elder999 (Oct 30, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Um yes. It is lethal.




You did get that that was sarcasm, right-that I was being facetious? That I was ridiculing this post from someone who has previously stated (time and again) that the "fact" that "lethal techniques" have been "removed" from BJJ/Judo/FITB, makes them "better" for self-defense? 
:lfao:

Oh, and I love the way he's now "flown two flags" for his avatar, Dracolino and now Renzo...don't know what that means...._creonte?_ :lfao:
Though, in all seriousness, Renzo Gracie and Vinicius "Dracolino" Magalhaes are lifelong friends,and training partners, as far as I know, so I'm just making fun........


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2014)

Before we can talk about the "head lock" counter, we should talk about the correct way to execute a "head lock" first.

In Chinese wrestling, the "head lock" is performed "if and only if" you have a full control on one of your opponent's arms. Only when you are at the moment to squeeze your opponent's out, you can then let go that arm control and only concentrate on your "squeeze". When that happen, you and your opponent are either on the ground, or in stand up but your opponent's structure is crashed and cannot perform any counter on you.

 Since you have used one arm to control your opponent's head, use another arm to control his leading arm, his back arm will be free. That should be the only free arm that you will allow your opponent to have. If you let your opponent to have 2 free arms, that will be your fault.

In this picture, you use your

- left arm to control your opponent's head,
- right hand to control his left elbow, 
- right shoulder to control his right forearm. 

It's a head lock plus a 2 points  control on his left arm. 







In this clip, you use your 

- right arm to control your opponent's head,
- left hand to control his right elbow, 
- left shoulder to control his right forearm, 
- right hand to control his right upper arm.

It's a head lock plus a 3 points control on your opponent's leading arm. 






As far as the "head lock" counter, you can almost write a book on it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 30, 2014)

elder999 said:


> You did get that that was sarcasm, right-that I was being facetious? That I was ridiculing this post from someone who has previously stated (time and again) that the "fact" that "lethal techniques" have been "removed" from BJJ/Judo/FITB, makes them "better" for self-defense?
> :lfao:



I wasn't talking about Bjj or Judo techniques. I was talking about methods to counter the headlock, since its such a common hold in general.

Talk about holding a grudge.....



> Oh, and I love the way he's now "flown two flags" for his avatar, Dracolino and now Renzo...don't know what that means...._creonte?_ :lfao:
> Though, in all seriousness, Renzo Gracie and Vinicius "Dracolino" Magalhaes are lifelong friends,and training partners, as far as I know, so I'm just making fun........



I'm actually part of neither organization. I just like their logos.


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## elder999 (Oct 30, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I wasn't talking about Bjj or Judo techniques. I was talking about methods to counter the headlock, since its such a common hold in general.



You're saying, then, that a "common hold" can kill? That a "lethal technique" might not be something special, left out of the repertoire of what are perceived as more "sports oriented" martial arts?

Interesting.  :lfao:

BTW, judo and Miyama ryu jujutsu are my primary styles-though I'm a karateka, and also practice a number of other martial arts....you did ask:


			
				Hanzou said:
			
		

> _What is* your* style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?_


And I answered.




Hanzou said:


> ITalk about holding a grudge.....



I bear no grudge. I only ridicule ignorance masquerading as seasoned wisdom, and hypocrisy wherever I find them.

Don't get me wrong. I bear grudges-it's a flaw, and one day or another it'll get me in trouble again.

You would not believe the extent to which I've gone to satisfy a grudge in the past.....Not this time, though....

Ignorance. Hypocrisy. These things I _might_ have a grudge against-but one that only merits shining the light of ridicule upon them.....

Tell us more about the "potentially lethal headlock," oh two-flag flying wiseman....



Hanzou said:


> I'm actually part of neither organization. I just like their logos.




Yeah....I was never on JEOPARDY! I just  like that program.....(actually, I haven't watched an entire  game of JEOPARDY since Nov. of 2005 for some reason....:lfao


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I was talking about methods to counter the headlock,...



Assume you have only 1 free arm left (again, if you have 2 free arms, it will be your opponent's fault). Also assume your opponent's back is touching on your chest.






You can:

1. lift your opponent up in the air,
2. drag him backward down to the ground,
3. push him forward down to the ground,
4. spin him down to the ground,
5. use your free right hand to push his left head locking arm forward while pull your head backward (if his head lock is not very strong),
6. use right under hook to counter his left head lock,
7. use your right free arm to push back on his fore head,
8. use your right leg to "hook" on his right upper legs,
9. use your right foot to "trap" on his right lower legs,
10. ...

When your opponent applies "head lock", if he is facing to you and doesn't give his back to you, it will be hard to counter him.


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## Hanzou (Oct 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume you have only 1 free arm left (again, if you have 2 free arms, it will be your opponent's fault). You can:
> 
> 1. lift your opponent up in the air,
> 2. drag him backward down to the ground,
> ...



Quick question KFW (and Drop Bear); Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?






There's nothing like that in Bjj. I was wondering if either of you had run across such a counter, and if it worked.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 30, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?



If you have a full control on your opponent's leading arm, his leading arm won't be able to pinch on your thigh. His back hand also won't be able to reach to your thigh either.






If you don't have full control on your opponent's leading arm, he can use that free hand to pinch on your thigh (behind your knee joint), but if you have a strong "head lock", you can generate more pain on his skull than he can generate some small pain on your thigh.

When you have detected that your opponent's free arm is trying to pinch on your thigh, you can slide yourself forward and drag him to the ground. Your "head lock" will be very powerful when his chest is touching on the ground but his head is still under your lock.

This clip shows a correct way to do a "head lock". Please look at that "full leading arm control" at 1.06 - 1.29. His opponent's leading right arm is not going anywhere. Even after you have taken your opponent down to the ground, you still won't release that "arm control".


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Before we can talk about the "head lock" counter, we should talk about the correct way to execute a "head lock" first.
> 
> In Chinese wrestling, the "head lock" is performed "if and only if" you have a full control on one of your opponent's arms. Only when you are at the moment to squeeze your opponent's out, you can then let go that arm control and only concentrate on your "squeeze". When that happen, you and your opponent are either on the ground, or in stand up but your opponent's structure is crashed and cannot perform any counter on you.
> 
> ...



You don't necessarily need the arm. You can use movement or momentum. Take the guy to the ground and bulldog choke them.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dUghLQe12cE


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Quick question KFW (and Drop Bear); Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes as a force continuum method. So if somone is punching my head in while trying to drag me to the ground no. And as an alternative I would squirrel grip them. And you can squirrel grip them and do the jits rolly Polly defence.

But say someone is just doing it to be a duchebag. Then either the Thigh pinch or the camel bite works fine.

It is a posture game. So with most headlocks yo have to be on top.  Or find a way to straiten your back. So even dropping to a knee should work. Then a single leg or high crotch.

With the roly Polly if the stuff the throw like NY sacrifice throw you could wind up on your back. Which is undesirable.

Having said that I have only thrown that roly Polly on noobs so I don't know the risk againstna guy who is going to scramble.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> You did get that that was sarcasm, right-that I was being facetious? That I was ridiculing this post from someone who has previously stated (time and again) that the "fact" that "lethal techniques" have been "removed" from BJJ/Judo/FITB, makes them "better" for self-defense?
> :lfao:
> 
> Oh, and I love the way he's now "flown two flags" for his avatar, Dracolino and now Renzo...don't know what that means...._creonte?_ :lfao:
> Though, in all seriousness, Renzo Gracie and Vinicius "Dracolino" Magalhaes are lifelong friends,and training partners, as far as I know, so I'm just making fun........



The lethality of the move has been removed by tapping and not hanging on after your oponant has passed out allowing it to be trained with resistance.

Safeish in the gym. Lethal on the street. Best of both worlds.

Making it better for self defence.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2014)

A good way to get around the lethality of the headlock is to lock on the their face. It hurts, though.


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2014)

drop bear said:


> The lethality of the move has been removed by tapping and not hanging on after your oponant has passed out allowing it to be trained with resistance.
> 
> Safeish in the gym. Lethal on the street. Best of both worlds.
> 
> Making it better for self defence.



Ya know what a safety engineer calls that?

An "administrative control."

It's the *lowest* form of hazard mitigation in the safety hierarchy.

See, in order to mitigate a hazard, the first level is to eliminate it: make it go away: lower that platform so the work is done at ground level.

The second, is to resolve it through engineering: put in a guard railing, so the people doing the work can't fall.

The third is to resolve it through PPE-personnel protective equipment-make  people wear a fall-arresting harness on that platform.

The last is the "administrative control": tell everybody, _don't fall off that platform.'_:lfao:

Judo and BJJ "rules" are an "administrative control," though an old and effective one. I mean, after all, does anyone think that samurai practicing in the service of a daimyo regularly choked each other to death during practice-_even though they were learning those techniques to use them lethally?_ 

:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:

The lethality hasn't been "removed." It's just agreed that "we're not gonna do that."


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Quick question KFW (and Drop Bear); Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If someone is mucking around with you at a party and you don't really want to hurt them, a thigh pinch might make them let go, it is fairly painful. Against a determine attacker trying to do you harm, not so much.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> If someone is mucking around with you at a party and you don't really want to hurt them, a thigh pinch might make them let go, it is fairly painful. Against a determine attacker trying to do you harm, not so much.


You owe it to yourself to try, but not as a hail Mary, but just how you roll. Grab some flesh, just because you have been working on your grip.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> A good way to get around the lethality of the headlock is to lock on the their face. It hurts, though.



There are 3 best places for head lock,

1. temple area,
2. jaw area, and
3. neck area.

IMO, 1 is better than 2, and 2 is better than 3.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Anyway, the cool thing about this vid is that it shows the  bjj response to the headlock, which I think are very good. The headlock is a very common and potentially fatal move that is simple to perform for even the untrained.
> 
> What is your style's response to this potentially deadly tactic?



There are many but here are a few of the common ones:

1) First, don't wait until the attacker grabs you, as soon as you see the arm go over your head, slip out the back, grab the arm on the way through and apply a hammer lock and then a strike such as a knee, groin kick or downward elbow. 

2) Reach over with your closer arm up their back and around to his face, slip your finger under his nose and the other hand on his hip and circle them around into a guillotine with the small of your wrist into his throat. Take a couple of steps back to keep him off balance and then knee and downward elbow. 

3) Use your close arm to grad the back of his shirt or hair and simultaneously pull back and knee the back of his leg to take him down and then finish him with a downward strike.

There are also additional things you can do such as a foot stomp,forearm to the groin from behind, punch to the groin from the front.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 31, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! There are 3 best places for head lock,
> 
> - temple area,
> - jaw area, and
> ...



1 is less secure than 2 or 3.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! There are 3 best places for head lock,
> 
> - temple area,
> - jaw area, and
> ...


Can I add #4? Get him under the cheekbone.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> Can I add #4? Get him under the cheekbone.


#5 is between his cheekbone and his nose. :miffer:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 31, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> #5 is between his cheekbone and his nose. :miffer:


#6 eye sockets!


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## Paul_D (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> BJJ is mostly judo.....


BJJ = Basically Just Judo


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

Paul_D said:


> BJJ = Basically Just Judo



Youre basically just wrong.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 31, 2014)

Nothing like a good discussion.


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## Paul_D (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Youre basically just wrong.


As it is difficult to convey context in text, smileys were invented to show when comments are made in jest and not intended to be taken serious.  Hence the   at the end of my sentence.

Here endeth today's lesson.


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## Paul_D (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Youre basically just wrong.


Now with added smiley.  sweet.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2014)

Yes, that was disturbing to watch. I hate the man filming as much as the guy doing the killing - which is exactly what he was doing. I hope both are in jail, but I'd be afraid to find out.

In our version of American Karate we deal with headlocks in exactly the way shown, as was taught to us by the Gracies. All except the one against the wall at the 16 and a half minute mark. Never tried stepping over the leg (standing) but I'll drill that next week, that's for damn sure. Thanks for posting that vid.

Never heard the word "perpendiculate"  before, either. What a nice verb.


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

Buka said:


> Yes, that was disturbing to watch. I hate the man filming as much as the guy doing the killing - which is exactly what he was doing. I hope both are in jail, but I'd be afraid to find out.



I'm sure they both are. I was surprised that the guy filming it didn't jump up and pull the guy off of him. 



> In our version of American Karate we deal with headlocks in exactly the way shown, as was taught to us by the Gracies. All except the one against the wall at the 16 and a half minute mark. Never tried stepping over the leg (standing) but I'll drill that next week, that's for damn sure. Thanks for posting that vid.



Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Ya know what a safety engineer calls that?
> 
> An "administrative control."
> 
> ...



It is a move where you have time to tap out. Where there are other moves that you dont. Removing the lethality.

Do you have any evidence of how samurai trained or are we playing pretend?


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2014)

Something else I wanted to mention - we call headlocks,  a "natural technique" (for lack of a better, more scientific term) as are the mount and a swinging strike with the dominant hand. Every little kid (male) in the world does those three things without anyone showing them how. Sure, they might do other things, but those three seem to be ingrained and prevalent world wide. As such, I think the three should be worked as part of the basic foundation for self defense. Especially for kids. And especially for girl kids.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.


Most people that actually train in MA's and don't just post up pics of schools because they look cool already know that


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## ballen0351 (Oct 31, 2014)

One of the strangest responses to the headlock I learned was in the Marine Corps.  Grab twist pull grab sweep and stomp.  Grab the groin twist the groin pull the groin down.  That supposed to loosen the arm around your neck or head.  Grab that arm sweep the leg stomp on head.

Marine corps over simplified eveeything.  Everything no matter what ended in sweep and stomp.  I guess when you have to teach 100s of students at a time and only get a week or so to do it you have too


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> [video=youtube_share;OfRCh_xth6Q]http://youtu.be/OfRCh_xth6Q[/video]



That's why when they say "kids, don't try this at home" the kids should listen.


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I'm sure they both are. I was surprised that the guy filming it didn't jump up and pull the guy off of him.



In the _favelas_ of Brazil, as in much of the rest of the world, life is cheap. In a world where children are kidnapped and forced to fight in wars before they become teenagers, this is relatively minor, sadly-travel the world, don't just see the pretty parts, and it's easy enough to see.

Hell, I had to get out of India, 35 odd years ago, because I simply got tired of dirty, begging children I could do little for, and constantly seeing dead bodies in the street. And it felt "dirty," as in, "unsanitary." :barf:

Of course, I was barely out of childhood, then.....



Hanzou said:


> Yeah, when I saw that vid, I knew I had to post it. I think a lot of people don't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke that you can die from.



Seems to me like you mean that *you* didn't realize how relatively easy a headlock can become a choke...:lfao:

"A headlock can _become_ a choke." Good that you pointed that out, since the boy didn't die from a headlock, as the title of your OP says-he was choked, and we do chokes all the time, don't we? I mean, all that's happened here is that one of the participants deliberately ignored practices administrative control: he didn't release the hold when the other guy tapped. Of course, these were kids just mucking about, apparently without anyone there to really control or instruct them, or this wouldn't have happened.



drop bear said:


> It is a move where you have time to tap out. Where there are other moves that you dont. Removing the lethality.



These "other moves that you don't?" Have they been "removed?" or simply removed from free sparring/randori/shiai? I know, for instance, that _ippon seionage_ can be performed with _uke's_ arm supinated-though there aren't a great many judo dojos in the country that ever teach it that way, since it's not permitted in contests. However, there are dojo and "jiu-jitsu _academies_ (  :lfao: )" all over the world that have people regularly putting each other to sleep by choking-this in itself, the regular and deliberate causing of unconsciousness through the compression of the arterio-baroflex and sympathetic nerves (the hypoglossal nerve, the vagus nerve, etc.), and or the depression of arterial and jugular flow to and from the dura matter-might ultimately prove to be lethal, much like concussions in other sports have today. 



drop bear said:


> Do you have any evidence of how samurai trained or are we playing pretend?



Actually, I do.

I'm friends  with several koryu practitioners, have training in koryu myself, and have been privileged to see several _densho_, though these last were mostly useless to me, as they are meant for people with more depth in their ryu. I've also had the privilege of being permitted to practice in modern replicas of _yoroi_, to see just how some movements and techniques were originally meant to be executed in armor (and be lethal). With that said, while deaths did occur, it's safe to say that outside of duels, grudges and accidents, samurai weren't regularly killing _each other_ in practice. Deaths have occurred in judo as well, though not so many since its inception , and none from choking-though the choke has been fatal many times when used by law enforcement. In fact, most judo deaths have  been head injuries from bad falls....which I can't help but believe has something to do with BJJ academies mostly practicing  from the knees....what _cagão papo furado _..:lol:


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Marine corps over simplified eveeything.  Everything no matter what ended in sweep and stomp.  I guess when you have to teach 100s of students at a time and only get a week or so to do it you have too



They also have different priorities-one of which is getting every rifleman into combat-oversimplified things tend to reduce potential injuries as well....I've found that some of the best and simplest responses for a headlock type situation-depending upon frames (which is why the whole "how would your art respond" question is generally nonsense) consist of picking up the attacker (sometimes from Principle #3, which is what we call the groin) and dropping him on his head. Practice that enough-especially on Marine Corps scale-and there will be injuries.


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> "A headlock can _become_ a choke." Good that you pointed that out, since the boy didn't die from a headlock, as the title of your OP says-he was choked, and we do chokes all the time, don't we? I mean, all that's happened here is that one of the participants deliberately ignored practices administrative control: he didn't release the hold when the other guy tapped. Of course, these were kids just mucking about, apparently without anyone there to really control or instruct them, or this wouldn't have happened.



Semantics? The headlock led straight into the choke because the boy turned his head to avoid getting punched in the face, exposing his neck. Its the exact same hold, it was the victim's head positioning that caused the lock to transition into a choke.

All that happened here was that the boy was in a position he couldn't counter because he never trained to do so. If he had, he might be alive today.


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Semantics? The headlock led straight into the choke because the boy turned his head to avoid getting punched in the face, exposing his neck. Its the exact same hold, it was the victim's head positioning that caused the lock to transition into a choke.
> 
> All that happened here was that the boy was in a position he couldn't counter because he never trained to do so. If he had, he might be alive today.



There's some validity to what you say, though we can't really say that either of them had ever trained to do anything, and weren't simply mimicking what they'd seen...as boys will do.


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## ballen0351 (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> They also have different priorities-one of which is getting every rifleman into combat-oversimplified things tend to reduce potential injuries as well....I've found that some of the best and simplest responses for a headlock type situation-depending upon frames (which is why the whole "how would your art respond" question is generally nonsense) consist of picking up the attacker (sometimes from Principle #3, which is what we call the groin) and dropping him on his head. Practice that enough-especially on Marine Corps scale-and there will be injuries.



Yeah I agree.  I just will never ever forget "GRAB TWIST PULL GRAG SWEEP STOMP"  I must have yelled that what felt like a million times.  To this day whenever I see a headlock or standing rear choke that pops in my head and I giggle.  I actually tried it once when a small guy Graber me from behind in a rear choke I went to grab but since I was about a foot taller then my attacker his feet were off the ground and I grabbed a big handful of thigh above his knee.


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

elder999 said:


> There's some validity to what you say, though we can't really say that either of them had ever trained to do anything, and weren't simply mimicking what they'd seen...as boys will do.



Hence the purpose of this thread. I was doing headlocks before I ever stepped foot in a dojo. I can imagine that most males would say the same. I didn't learn to get out of them until I took grappling as an adult because my Shotokan dojo never addressed them. 

The headlock is a very common, simple, and potentially dangerous lock. As Buka said, its counters should be trained consistently. Especially for women who often suffer from a height/weight/strength/power disadvantage against male assailants.


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## Grenadier (Oct 31, 2014)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*

Please keep this conversation civil.  If you don't like what someone says, then you are free to use the ignore feature that is part of the vBulletin software.  

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


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## Danny T (Oct 31, 2014)

1. Died from a RNC not a headlock. 
"if the set up is different then the pass is not the same." ???

The guy did a great job of pressing his hip into the other's armpit and staying twisted to prevent the arm from going around his body. Because the choked guy turned his head outward the headlock became a RNC and was maintained. Because the positions are different it is no longer a headlock. 

2. How different would the counters be if all being the same as what was on the video. Every counter shown was with the attacked persons arm around the back of the attacker. In the video his arm stays in front of the attackers body. He should have at some point countered by wrapping his arm around the attacker's body but didn't or maybe he couldn't because of the pressure. Dealing with the fact his arm never was around the attackers body how does that change what he could have done?


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

Danny T said:


> 1. Died from a RNC not a headlock.
> "if the set up is different then the pass is not the same." ???



No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when *behind* the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.




> 2. How different would the counters be if all being the same as what was on the video. Every counter shown was with the attacked persons arm around the back of the attacker. In the video his arm stays in front of the attackers body. He should have at some point countered by wrapping his arm around the attacker's body but didn't or maybe he couldn't because of the pressure. Dealing with the fact his arm never was around the attackers body how does that change what he could have done?



He didn't because he was using both hands to try to stop the punches. He had several opportunities to wrap his arm around his assailant (about 1:40 onward), but instead he was more worried about covering up his face. Ironically, he could have used both his arms to establish control versus his opponent's one arm that was punching him (his other arm was maintaining the headlock). Unfortunately by using both of his hands to cover his face, he made the situation far worse for himself.

I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.


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## elder999 (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when *behind* the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.



Yeppers....a RNC is, after all, a *Rear* Naked Choke.....








Hanzou said:


> I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.



Yeah, the extended video is pretty gruesome.....


----------



## Danny T (Oct 31, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> No, its a headlock that transitions into a choke. An RNC is applied when *behind* the opponent. There was a point where he did attempt to apply an RNC, but he couldn't lock it in, so he shifted to a headlock in order to control him and punch his face.



I'd call it a NC however, in the breakdown discussion, at 10:48, he states when he turns his chin out it turns into a Lion Killer, RNC and he calls it is a RNC at least one more time during the discussion.




			
				Hanzou said:
			
		

> He didn't because he was using both hands to try to stop the punches. He had several opportunities to wrap his arm around his assailant (about 1:40 onward), but instead he was more worried about covering up his face. Ironically, he could have used both his arms to establish control versus his opponent's one arm that was punching him (his other arm was maintaining the headlock). Unfortunately by using both of his hands to cover his face, he made the situation far worse for himself.
> 
> I can't be too harsh on the kid though. He wasn't trained, so he panicked and paid the ultimate price.



Correct, he didn't but in the breakdown they began the demo from the arm behind the body and not in the manner in happen in reality in that it was in front. 

So the only defense to the headlock is the arm has to be behind the attacker?


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2014)

Yeah, I disagree that it was a RNC, but whatever. That's really besides the point. 



Danny T said:


> ]Correct, he didn't but in the breakdown they began the demo from the arm behind the body and not in the manner in happen in reality in that it was in front.



I understand your point, but there's really no reason you can't get that arm around your assailant's waist at some point. I mean he can't stop you from doing it. Even that kid had an opportunity to do it. 



> So the only defense to the headlock is the arm has to be behind the attacker?



I personally can't think of a headlock defense where you didn't wrap your arm around the back of the guy doing the head lock. The branch of Bjj where I spent my white belt years (Relson Gjj) we were trained to wrap that arm around the back first, so for us its almost instinctual. Without that? That just seems weird to me. 

There's a HL escape where a Aikido guy pinches him in the thigh, or hits him in the groin that I posted earlier. Can't imagine that being high percentage though. :uhoh:

Maybe someone else here has done one without that detail?


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> In the _favelas_ of Brazil, as in much of the rest of the world, life is cheap. In a world where children are kidnapped and forced to fight in wars before they become teenagers, this is relatively minor, sadly-travel the world, don't just see the pretty parts, and it's easy enough to see.
> 
> Hell, I had to get out of India, 35 odd years ago, because I simply got tired of dirty, begging children I could do little for, and constantly seeing dead bodies in the street. And it felt "dirty," as in, "unsanitary." :barf:
> 
> ...



But still less lethal.so if you look at something like judo. You won't be throwing people in arm bars or neck cranks. Those moves have been removed. Or even removed from randori. And the comment of less lethal so can be trained live applies.

Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Yeah, I disagree that it was a RNC, but whatever. That's really besides the point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hip bump and high crotch can both work from a thigh pinch or groin grab. If it works it is faster. So you don't spend any time in the headlock if they flinch out. If it doesn't there are options.

Vingativa in capoeira would get you safe if the arm is in front.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EjSSoZBOiKM


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But still less lethal.so if you look at something like judo. You won't be throwing people in arm bars or neck cranks. Those moves have been removed. Or even removed from randori. And the comment of less lethal so can be trained live applies.



Simply removed from randori/shiai, and maybe not even so much...many of the throws, like _ippon seionage_, were just adjusted to prevent injury. 

Sorry, but I gotta continue to object to saying they were 'removed" from judo, simply because they aren't permitted in randori. Likewise for _atemi_. Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo _atemi_ and _ate waza_, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even _judo kata_, for that matter, but those things haven't been "removed," and that doesn't mean that there isn't one where those things are taught-hell, when I was a kid, there were at least three.....:lfao:



drop bear said:


> Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.



Pretty sure I answered that question, but if you find it less than satisfactory, there are these things called _"books._ 

I'd suggest you find one, and read it....:lfao:


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Do you have any proof outside your imagination of how samurai trained.



Not that he needs it, but to back Elder here&#8230; mate, you really have no idea.

Elder's comments on bushi jiyu keiko are accurate and correct. You, er&#8230; you do know what koryu are, don't you? Or are you just arguing as you don't understand the answers you're getting?


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo _atemi_ and _ate waza_, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even _judo kata_, for that matter.....



That's a real shame. 

Gotta get those Olympic sponserships though, even if it slowly kills the art itself.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> That's a real shame.
> 
> Gotta get those Olympic sponserships though, even if it slowly kills the art itself.



You want really shameful? 

_Ne waza _is suppressed so much by referees in contests that there are judo schools where judoka are simply taught throws and how to resist going to the ground-or (maybe) to resist on the ground until the ref stands both players up again, and there is no groundfighting, per se......


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> You want really shameful?
> 
> _Ne waza _is suppressed so much by referees in contests that there are judo schools where judoka are simply taught throws and how to resist going to the ground-or (maybe) to resist on the ground until the ref stands both players up again, and there is no groundfighting, per se......



The interesting side effect of this is that you end up with not only some judoka who don't know how to do anything on the ground except stall and wait for the standup - but you also get other judoka who are absolutely phenomenal at blowing through resistance and getting the submission _fast _before the ref calls for the reset.



			
				elder999 said:
			
		

> Simply removed from randori/shiai, and maybe not even so much...many of the throws, like _ippon seionage_, were just adjusted to prevent injury.
> 
> Sorry, but I gotta continue to object to saying they were 'removed" from judo, simply because they aren't permitted in randori. Likewise for _atemi_. Granted, one could probably visit a hundred dojo in New York state alone, and not find one that teaches the judo _atemi_ and _ate waza_, or wristlocks, or anything that is no longer permitted in contests....or even _judo kata_, for that matter, but those things haven't been "removed," and that doesn't mean that there isn't one where those things are taught-hell, when I was a kid, there were at least three....



Interesting philosophical question as to what it means for a technique to be "removed" from a system. Let's take the variation on seio nage where you supinate the opponent's arm to apply an armlock as he goes over and dump him on his head instead of on his back. It's not in the official list of Kodokan throws, it's not in any of the judo kata I've seen (although I'm not 100% familiar with all the kata, so I might have missed it somewhere), and it's not used or allowed in randori. Some judo practitioners doubtless know how to apply this variation. I've seen it taught in gendai jujutsu systems which are mostly derived from judo (such as Shingitai Jujutsu). However I would venture to say that the majority of judo black belts have never practiced the move.

If a technique is not part of the official curriculum of an art and it's not widely practiced in the art and the institutional knowledge of the technique has been attenuated to almost nothing, at what point to you say that the technique is no longer really part of the art but rather just the skillset of some individual practitioners?


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 1, 2014)

Ok let me get this straight is it the headlock that is deadly or what it can turn into?
If it the headlock in and of itself what makes it lethal.
If it is what the lock can turn into then I understand what is going on but at this time I see more discussion on the choke then on the actual head lock unless the head lock is supposed to be applied to a part of the body that is not the head.
Not being an *** here just want some qualification on what we are actually discussing


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Not that he needs it, but to back Elder here&#8230; mate, you really have no idea.
> 
> Elder's comments on bushi jiyu keiko are accurate and correct. You, er&#8230; you do know what koryu are, don't you? Or are you just arguing as you don't understand the answers you're getting?



Just asking for evidence which of course I never get. 

So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.

So it is about believing not about understanding.


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.
> 
> So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.
> 
> So it is about believing not about understanding.


You did well in history class I bet


----------



## MJS (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> [video=youtube_share;OfRCh_xth6Q]http://youtu.be/OfRCh_xth6Q[/video]
> 
> Warning, video is a bit disturbing....
> 
> ...



Nothing new here, really.  This is why I'm an advocate for a) having some grappling experience, even if just the bare basics, and b) training in a realistic fashion.  As for what I'd do...well, my goal is to get away, not stand there and grapple with the guy.  Do whatever I have to do to get free, and go from there.  And no, while I do believe in the 'dirty shots', I'm not of the mind that they're as 'deadly' as some make them out to be.


----------



## MJS (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Quick question KFW (and Drop Bear); Do you think a thigh pinch can stop a headlock?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shouldn't be a problem.  IMO, the goal of a headlock is control with one hand, while punching with the other.  Of course, it could also be to take the person down.  Even if the person has control of your hand, that doesn't mean you're defenseless.  But yes, the pinch works.  I've done it, I've had it done to me.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Ok let me get this straight is it the headlock that is deadly or what it can turn into?



If the headlock is the gateway to more dangerous things, doesn't that make the headlock in of itself dangerous as well?


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> If the headlock is the gateway to more dangerous things, doesn't that make the headlock in of itself dangerous as well?



That's a stretch: it's the opposable thumb that made us apex predators, in part. If the thumb is the gateway to the club, doesn't that make the thumb in and of itself dangerous as well?


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> That's a stretch: it's the opposable thumb that made us apex predators, in part. If the thumb is the gateway to the club, doesn't that make the thumb in and of itself dangerous as well?



Well the thumb has far more uses than just holding a club, or performing violent acts.

The headlock on the other hand is only used for violent purposes.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Well the thumb has far more uses than just holding a club, or performing violent acts.
> 
> The headlock on the other hand is only used for violent purposes.



On the other hand, in and of itself it's......_non-lethal_, in the way you and others speak of much of judo-if the headlock is done properly, and is maintained, it's just that: a headlock, a restraint with no lethal consequences, in most cases. I mean, someone as strong as I am-or, at least, as strong as I was at 33-might be able to crack _a_ skull with a headlock, but it would be a stronger than average person, and a weaker than average skull. 

Otherwise, it's simply an immobilization-like the thumb, in and of itself, relatively harmless....


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> On the other hand, in and of itself it's......_non-lethal_, in the way you and others speak of much of judo-if the headlock is done properly, and is maintained, it's just that: a headlock, a restraint with no lethal consequences, in most cases. I mean, someone as strong as I am-or, at least, as strong as I was at 33-might be able to crack _a_ skull with a headlock, but it would be a stronger than average person, and a weaker than average skull.
> 
> Otherwise, it's simply an immobilization-like the thumb, in and of itself, relatively harmless....



Judo throws are _potentially_ lethal, just like the headlock is.

The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock without the intent on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin, your only intent is harm.

You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock w*ithout the intent *on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin,* your only intent i*s harm.




The difference then, is _*intent*_, isn't it? The throws, blows-all of it-aren't "lethal" in and of themselves, or, for that matter, non-lethal, any more than a thumb....or a fountain pen.....

It's *human beings,*-intent, and the will to carry it out, that are lethal. 



Hanzou said:


> .
> 
> . Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.



That's funny, I'm pretty sure that I've practiced those very things, at maximum power, and  without doing any damage, since my teen years-40 years, now..... In fact, I'm certain that others have done it for hundreds of years.....:lfao:


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.
> 
> So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.
> 
> So it is about believing not about understanding.



Some of them train in systems that have been handed down quite faithfully from those days.  Others have researched historical records that documented it.  I mean, we're really not talking all that long in history.  Do you think that there are folks with a good idea how the soldiers in the Civil War, or American Revolutionary eras trained?  Or how a knight was trained during the Middle Ages?  You don't think that people in other hemispheres could make records?

Of course, they don't have YouTube videos of samurai training... so I guess there's no proof.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Judo throws are _potentially_ lethal, just like the headlock is.
> 
> The difference is that you can place someone in the headlock without the intent on harming them. You can throw someone without the intent to harm them. When you punch someone in the throat, or kick someone in the groin, your only intent is harm.
> 
> You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.



Well, I'd argue that it is possible to punch someone in the throat, etc. without intent to do serious and permanent harm.  It's certainly possible to punch people and not do serious harm by carefully selecting your target.  Instead of punch the throat -- punch the chest.  Which -- gee -- seems a lot like doing a choke and releasing it, or stopping at submission on an armbar rather than breaking it.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Well, I'd argue that it is possible to punch someone in the throat, etc. without intent to do serious and permanent harm.  It's certainly possible to punch people and not do serious harm by carefully selecting your target.  Instead of punch the throat -- punch the chest.  Which -- gee -- seems a lot like doing a choke and releasing it, or stopping at submission on an armbar rather than breaking it.



Well if you're punching someone in the chest, you're not punching them in the throat.

I'm doing an armbar whether I break the arm or not. I'm doing a Triangle choke whether I release the choke or not.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 1, 2014)

As you sit at your keyboard try an experiment. Take your right or left hand and hit your own throat. Start light and add a little bit each time. Nothing lethal there because there is no intent, as you go back to typing. All strikes have degrees of control, even strikes to the throat. This is old school, if you weren't there or from that era then it would mean nothing....A strike to the throat can be as lethal as you want it to be.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

seasoned said:


> As you sit at your keyboard try an experiment. Take your right or left hand and hit your own throat. Start light and add a little bit each time. Nothing lethal there because there is no intent, as you go back to typing. All strikes have degrees of control, even strikes to the throat. This is old school, if you weren't there or from that era then it would mean nothing....A strike to the throat can be as lethal as you want it to be.



I can remember, as a 15 year old brown belt years ago, being put in my place (for being a little rambunctious and rough myself) by an older black belt with a kick that "love-tapped" my esophagus....:lfao:

*Really* "tough love." :lfao:


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Some of them train in systems that have been handed down quite faithfully from those days.  Others have researched historical records that documented it.  I mean, we're really not talking all that long in history.  Do you think that there are folks with a good idea how the soldiers in the Civil War, or American Revolutionary eras trained?  Or how a knight was trained during the Middle Ages?  You don't think that people in other hemispheres could make records?
> 
> Of course, they don't have YouTube videos of samurai training... so I guess there's no proof.



Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.

So I guess there's no proof.

But yeah I am sure these guys are living the life of a samurai. And certainly not some well let's call it a historical recreationist version. I mean this is elders argument that he is so in tune with samurai training that he can tell if they were chunking people around in dangerous arm bars and neck cranks. 

They either did fight to the death as part of their training or they didn't I am not assuming one way or the other.

As I said I don't know I wasn't there. Maybe elder and Chris were. They certainly are trying to come across that way.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2014)

elder999 said:


> The difference then, is _*intent*_, isn't it? The throws, blows-all of it-aren't "lethal" in and of themselves, or, for that matter, non-lethal, any more than a thumb....or a fountain pen.....
> 
> It's *human beings,*-intent, and the will to carry it out, that are lethal.
> 
> ...



Not really. You can compete judo with intent. And not have a room full of corpses. You start adding to much sillyness and someone will get hurt more than they need to. 

Those kids had intent and somone died. If a third party had pulled that kid off at the submission then that death was less likely. No change in the intent.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.
> 
> So I guess there's no proof.
> .



And we also have no idea of how men went to sea in sailing vessels, rowed boats after whales, harpooned and butchered them, I suppose? 

:lfao:

Or what daily life was like for the Algonquin before the arrival of Europeans? 
:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:




drop bear said:


> Not really. You can compete judo with intent. And not have a room full of corpses. You start adding to much sillyness and someone will get hurt more than they need to.
> 
> Those kids had intent and somone died. If a third party had pulled that kid off at the submission then that death was less likely. No change in the intent.



So, let me get this straight-you're saying that his intent wouldn't have been lethal if _someone had stopped him??_

This has to be deliberately obtuse. 

I mean, I've worked with some of the smartest people-scratch that-I've worked with *the* smartest people in the world-enough to know that there  weren't just times when I wasn't the smartest guy in the room-there were times when I wasn't even the smartest guy in the building. That said, I'm a pretty smart guy, and I generally give people the benefit of the doubt. There's a phrase I use quite a bit at work these days, since my work situation has changed-and when I do, some of my coworkers just nod, to remind me that apparently, it *is* possible:

"_*No one,* could *possibly* be *that dumb.*_ He's gotta be kidding, right? *Right??*"

View attachment $leo.jpg
:lfao:


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2014)

HAIR PULLS ARE LETHAL!!  yes thats right you could reach out to pull someones hair and they could trip and fall forward into you, making the two of you stumble backwards into the street, while on comming traffic and a semi- trailer moving at 50 MPH squishes the both of you like a pancake.  
Yes thats why hair pulling was removed from all competition. its potentialy fatal.


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Interestingly, _do jime_ the Body Strangle or Trunk Lock, is _taught_ in judo, but_ illegal _in judo competition, AND legal in BJJ competition.

It is "potentially lethal," much like the claw hammer I left sitting on the bench at home.....but more so....:lfao:


----------



## elder999 (Nov 1, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Well if you're punching someone in the chest, you're not punching them in the throat.
> 
> .



Punched a guy in the chest-actually, hit him with a palm heel- when he groped my wife at a concert, 25 years or so ago (Stevie Ray Vaughn concert the summer he was killed, so it's 24 years ago. Joe Cocker warmed up for him, June of 1990 at Jones Beach...EDIT: Actually, it was July 8, 1990....and Joe Cocker was a "co-headliner," who just happened to play first.....) 

Knocked him over three rows of seats.He didn't get up......_Thought_ I'd killed him........:lfao:


----------



## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

elder999 said:


> And we also have no idea of how men went to sea in sailing vessels, rowed boats after whales, harpooned and butchered them, I suppose?
> 
> :lfao:
> 
> ...




OK we do have a provable history that operates outside of your imagination. So not really valid. You can fight with intent and not kill people if the lethality of what you do has been removed. So also not valid.

And if you have issue with your coworkers that is your issue.

The history of judo. 
http://judoinfo.com/jhist4.htm

Dangerous techniques removed so it could be trained competitively.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

elder999 said:


> Interestingly, _do jime_ the Body Strangle or Trunk Lock, is _taught_ in judo, but_ illegal _in judo competition, AND legal in BJJ competition.
> 
> It is "potentially lethal," much like the claw hammer I left sitting on the bench at home.....but more so....:lfao:



Well if you take your claw hammer in to judo you won't be able to use it. Because some techniques are too lethal. Hitting someone with a claw hammer is one. It is illegal in judo and bjj.

I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.


----------



## Chris Parker (Nov 2, 2014)

I honestly have trouble believing you're being this dense&#8230; I really do&#8230; I mean, I know I gave you the nickname of Dogberry recently, but you really don't have to try this hard to live up to it&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> Just asking for evidence which of course I never get.



You got evidence. You actually got better evidence, via  confirmatory statements and supporting references, than you-tube clips provide. That you are too lacking in understanding or grounding to understand it doesn't change the fact that you got the evidence, you understand&#8230;  I'll review it and highlight what you were given in a moment&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> So no I don't have the inside track on how ancient samurai trained. It was before my time. I just am not about to believe you guys do either.



Again, you do know what koryu are, don't you&#8230;? Cause, I gotta say&#8230; that's exactly what we have.



drop bear said:


> So it is about believing not about understanding.



No, it's about understanding. You don't have any.

Now, back to what Elder already told you&#8230; 



elder999 said:


> Actually, I do.
> 
> I'm friends  with several koryu practitioners, have training in koryu myself, and have been privileged to see several _densho_, though these last were mostly useless to me, as they are meant for people with more depth in their ryu. I've also had the privilege of being permitted to practice in modern replicas of _yoroi_, to see just how some movements and techniques were originally meant to be executed in armor (and be lethal). With that said, while deaths did occur, it's safe to say that outside of duels, grudges and accidents, samurai weren't regularly killing _each other_ in practice. Deaths have occurred in judo as well, though not so many since its inception , and none from choking-though the choke has been fatal many times when used by law enforcement. In fact, most judo deaths have  been head injuries from bad falls....which I can't help but believe has something to do with BJJ academies mostly practicing  from the knees....what _cagão papo furado _..:lol:



So let's look at that. 

Elder stated, quite clearly, that he has trained in Koryu (the actual arts trained by the samurai), has seen the densho (transmission books, records of both the arts and the training methods, and more) from some of these traditions, and trained in the techniques in part of their original (application) context, to see how they are meant to be applied. In addition to that, I train in Koryu (a couple of different ryu-ha), and can tell you just how these things are done now, how they were done then, what is the same, and what has changed, in a range of different systems.



drop bear said:


> Actually I was asking for anything outside their imagination.



None of what you were told has come from any imagination, son. In fact, the only argument here that has come from anyone's imagination is this one from you.



drop bear said:


> So I guess there's no proof.



There's a difference between there not being any proof, and your abject denial of the evidence you are presented with simply on the basis that you have absolutely no clue what on earth you're talking about.



drop bear said:


> But yeah I am sure these guys are living the life of a samurai. And certainly not some well let's call it a historical recreationist version. I mean this is elders argument that he is so in tune with samurai training that he can tell if they were chunking people around in dangerous arm bars and neck cranks.



"Living the life of a samurai"?!?! Dude, do you even hear yourself?!?! Who on earth has said anything of the kind! All that's been mentioned is the training methods being for lethal usage, but not being lethal in training&#8230; surely, surely you can see the distinction???

Seriously. Stop trying to argue something you know absolutely nothing about with people who actually do what you're trying to comment on. Nothing in your posts is based in anything close to reality&#8230; which makes your accusation that both Elder's and my comments are from our "imagination" rather ironic&#8230; and would be funny, if it wasn't so sad that you actually think like that. Unless you're just trolling, yeah? I mean, after your recent refutation of my arguments being "Nope, sorry, you're wrong" with absolutely no back up, I'm starting to think that that might be it&#8230; care to refute?



drop bear said:


> They either did fight to the death as part of their training or they didn't I am not assuming one way or the other.



Yeah&#8230; right&#8230; cause, what you want when training people, is for the trainees to kill each other&#8230; are you kidding?!?!



drop bear said:


> As I said I don't know I wasn't there. Maybe elder and Chris were. They certainly are trying to come across that way.



No, Dogberry, we're saying that we have an education and understanding of the topic. You really, really should come to grips with that.



elder999 said:


> "_*No one,* could *possibly* be *that dumb.*_ He's gotta be kidding, right? *Right??*"
> 
> View attachment 18998
> :lfao:



Sadly Elder, I feel that he could be&#8230; unless, as I said, this is an elaborate troll job&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> OK we do have a provable history that operates outside of your imagination. So not really valid.



Er&#8230; did you miss a word there? Or are you saying that yes, there is a provable history outside of Elder's imagination (I really don't know where you got that ludicrous idea from in the first place, though&#8230; nothing has been from inside Elders imagination from the get-go)&#8230; so it's not valid? Er&#8230; isn't that the opposite of&#8230; well&#8230; itself? And your point? At the same time? 



drop bear said:


> You can fight with intent and not kill people if the lethality of what you do has been removed. So also not valid.



What's not valid?!?! Really, what's your argument here? I mean, you can fight with intent and kill people even without specifically "lethal" methods, you know&#8230; you can fight without "intent" and kill people the same way&#8230; with or without such "lethal" techniques&#8230; or you can train in lethal methods without killing people&#8230; 

You're not making any sense.



drop bear said:


> And if you have issue with your coworkers that is your issue.



Did you really miss the point of Elders comments about his co-workers? There wasn't anything to do with having "issues" with them&#8230; 



drop bear said:


> The history of judo.
> Judo History
> 
> Dangerous techniques removed so it could be trained competitively.



Yeah&#8230; look, I gotta say, there are some major issues with the history provided there, specifically to the other methods of jujutsu (leaving off the spelling issues there for the minute)&#8230; with much of the "history" given there being not really that accurate&#8230; 

But to the aspect you've highlighted, you might note that the "dangerous techniques" were removed for competition&#8230; they were retained for seniors in other forms including kata&#8230; so&#8230;?



drop bear said:


> Well if you take your claw hammer in to judo you won't be able to use it. Because some techniques are too lethal. Hitting someone with a claw hammer is one. It is illegal in judo and bjj.
> 
> I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.



And, again, you completely miss what you're being told&#8230; Elder was employing sarcastic exaggeration to demonstrate the flaws with your argument&#8230; surely you saw that, yeah? You didn't really think he was suggesting bringing a claw hammer into a Judo contest? Cause really, if you did, I have no way to comprehend how you see the world&#8230; 

But, to take this back to the idea of this thread and argument about what makes something lethal or not&#8230; looking at the idea of technique versus intent&#8230; when I train, it is always with lethal intent (depending on the system&#8230; I'm talking my Koryu material here). On both sides. If I'm uchidachi, or shidachi, my aim is the death of my opponent. It can't be anything less than that, or there's really no point training it. And you know something? I've never killed anyone (literally&#8230; I have symbolically countless times over) in training at all. Why not? Well, there are safety measures in place&#8230; training methodology and equipment&#8230; but the point is that you can train with lethal intent and not kill&#8230; and you can kill without lethal intent&#8230; and both of those are true regardless of the technique, to a great degree.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You can practice headlocks and Judo throws constantly at maximum power without doing much damage. Can't say the same about throat strikes, eye gouges, or groin shots.



Actually you can, that's why some arts are predominantly non-contact.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I don't think you get that there are degrees of lethal and so there are degrees in which they are allowed to be trained.



There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

I guess all this Judo talk depends on where you train.  Where I was going we had classes that totally focused on comps and the rules and we had the "best of Judo"  as my teacher would say.  All the illegal stuff and self defense stuff.  However I will say even the comp stuff would still be deadly if you preformed it outside of the nice padded dojo.  So I'm not sure where anyone gets that judo is less lethal I see it as just more cautious.  If I did the same throw same speed same power same intent once on the mat and once on the concrete.  One is far more dangerous then the other but it's the same throw


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.



In all fairness, I suspect he meant that there are degrees of *lethality*, not lethal.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Actually you can, that's why some arts are predominantly non-contact.



Its impossible to perform those attacks at maximum force without making contact.


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## Buka (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> There is only one degree of lethal - lethal. You can't partially kill someone.



Not in fighting, no. But then there's marriage.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Its impossible to perform those attacks at maximum force without making contact.



Not true:

F = ma

Any mass accelerated produces a force no matter whether it hits something or not.


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> "Living the life of a samurai"?!?! Dude, do you even hear yourself?!?! Who on earth has said anything of the kind! All that's been mentioned is the training methods being for lethal usage, but not being lethal in training surely, surely you can see the distinction???



View attachment $1391439_437452183043841_308130083_n.jpg
:lfao:


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> Not true:
> 
> F = ma
> 
> Any mass accelerated produces a force no matter whether it hits something or not.



So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.



That's a fair way for a non-technically minded person to think, but it's *wrong.*

As a physicist and engineer, I'm telling you, 'cause the laws of physics don't change-and while all of that force may not become sensible-that is to say, force that is transferred-it is generated, and the _potential_ is there for a great deal of it to be.....by adhering to form, striking with the methods developed and described over centuries, one can achieve that kind of efficiency....and there are other targets for measuring transference of force besides other human beings.

So your thinking in this is faulty, but it's not _your_ fault....:lol:


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

elder999 said:


> View attachment 19000
> :lfao:



So much for "Friendly Martial arts talk".


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## Buka (Nov 2, 2014)

Don't know if this adds anything to the discussion or not - I was hit in the throat, intentionally, in competition. A really hard overhand right, (out of bounds, to boot) I spent 36 hours in the hospital with a tube down my throat. It was a teaching hospital and the head Doc brought in a group of med students to see me and an ultrasound image. Said, "this is the only time you'll see this on a live patient."  That really warmed the cockles of my heart.

All I can tell you is a hard throat strike really hurts and tends to drop you flat. Partially from the blow itself, partially from lack of breath. But mostly by abject fear of "Uh oh, I'm screwed."


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So much for "Friendly Martial arts talk".



What, your friends don't make fun of you?

You probably don't have any then.......:lfao:


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> So are you actually measuring that force, or are you assuming it? You have no idea how hard you're hitting something unless you're actually hitting something.



You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.



You know, pretty much what he said...:lfao:


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

RTKDCMB said:


> You measure the force on pads, in breaking and simple physics. You don't have to punch someone in the face to know you can punch hard.



You said "whether you hit something or not", and I said you can't tell how hard you hit if you're not hitting something. Hitting pads is hitting something, and it is contact.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

elder999 said:


> What, your friends don't make fun of you?
> 
> You probably don't have any then.......:lfao:



I don't call my friends "dense" or "idiots" if they don't agree with me.:uhoh:


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You said "whether you hit something or not", and I said you can't tell how hard you hit if you're not hitting something. Hitting pads is hitting something, and it is contact.



You don't need to hit something every time.  There is more then one way to train.  If I use correct technique speed and power and punch a bag then step back one foot use the same technique speed and power I can be pretty sure the force is around the same even though I didn't hit anythimg.  Do you snap someone's arm everyone you apply in arm bar?  If not how do you know you have enough force to do it?  In fact if you have never snapped an arm how do you even know you can?


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> I honestly have trouble believing you're being this dense&#8230; I really do&#8230; I mean, I know I gave you the nickname of Dogberry recently, but you really don't have to try this hard to live up to it&#8230;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So.................









No proof huh?

Fair enough.
( this is why I can't have a sensible conversation with you)


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So.................
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So..............









No reading comprehension 
Fair enough


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You don't need to hit something every time.  There is more then one way to train.  If I use correct technique speed and power and punch a bag then step back one foot use the same technique speed and power I can be pretty sure the force is around the same even though I didn't hit anythimg.




Uh, no you can't. You're assuming its the same amount of force.



> Do you snap someone's arm everyone you apply in arm bar?  If not how do you know you have enough force to do it?  In fact if you have never snapped an arm how do you even know you can?



I did it once on accident to a partner who forgot to tap. The only thing I did different was the continuation of applied pressure instead of releasing. Hence why we tap quickly, and tap often. If you have it 80% of the way, you're going to have it at 100% eventually.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So..............
> 
> 
> 
> ...



See I would have considered proof as a source or something other than snarkyness. Just re stating how right you are and then throwing around the insults is pretty immature.

I mean if we are discussing reading comprehension.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> See I would have considered proof as a source or something other than snarkyness. Just re stating how right you are and then throwing around the insults is pretty immature.
> 
> I mean if we are discussing reading comprehension.



You were given all the proof you need you choose to ignore it.  You don't really want proof you want to troll.  If it was proof you really wanted and dont except whats been given then get off your butt and go do some research stop expecting others to do it for you


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, no you can't. You're assuming its the same amount of force.
> 
> 
> 
> I did it once on accident to a partner who forgot to tap. The only thing I did different was the continuation of applied pressure instead of releasing. Hence why we tap quickly, and tap often. If you have it 80% of the way, you're going to have it at 100% eventually.


You don't know that you only assume


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You don't know that you only assume



You know because the pressure builds on your limb. If you don't tap, you'll get a snap.

When I first began Bjj, I was attempting a stacking Guard pass on a blue belt. He immediately arm barred me, with gravity making his arm bar even more potent.. I hesitated on the tap because I really wanted to pass a blue belt's Guard, and I almost got my arm broken. My arm hurt for days afterwards.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You were given all the proof you need you choose to ignore it.  You don't really want proof you want to troll.  If it was proof you really wanted and dont except whats been given then get off your butt and go do some research stop expecting others to do it for you



I think you are missing an important piece. You need to back up what you say. I can't prove things for you. That is silly. We could be saying any old thing.

And nothing gets discussed and you get all snarky pants. 

It is not trolling to expect that.it is weird to think that I would just accept what you say. I am not sure why I would do that?


But don't take my word for it. Here is proof.
Philosophic burden of proof - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You are confused as what is trolling. That would be all the off topic cry posting.
Troll (Internet) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now that is cleared up.
Back to the discussion.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You know because the pressure builds on your limb. If you don't tap, you'll get a snap.
> 
> When I first began Bjj, I was attempting a stacking Guard pass on a blue belt. He immediately arm barred me, with gravity making his arm bar even more potent.. I hesitated on the tap because I really wanted to pass a blue belt's Guard, and I almost got my arm broken. My arm hurt for days afterwards.


And?  It didn't break so according to you it was a failed technique.  If I'm not able to accurately judge the force of my strikes when I don't crush someone's throat then you can't possible judge the force of am armbar that fails to break an arm even with assistance of gravity seems like a junk technique to me


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I think you are missing an important piece. You need to back up what you say. I can't prove things for you. That is silly. We could be saying any old thing.
> 
> And nothing gets discussed and you get all snarky pants.
> 
> ...


Except all your doubts were answered and you choose not to listen.  So if their answers are not good enough go do your own research


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> I don't call my friends "dense" or "idiots" if they don't agree with me.:uhoh:



View attachment $1526127_641384472566278_1414677753_n.jpg
:lfao:

First off, it's not a question of "not agreeing with me." It's deliberate "no proof" obtuseness, over something that's relatively trivial, though central to this conversation-I mean, his question was answered, he just didn't like the answer, so he says, "No proof," and adheres to his position....now, come on down off your cross....

View attachment $155776_556702114415626_1205575063_n.jpg


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And?  It didn't break so according to you it was a failed technique.  If I'm not able to accurately judge the force of my strikes when I don't crush someone's throat then you can't possible judge the force of am armbar that fails to break an arm even with assistance of gravity seems like a junk technique to me



It didn't break my arm because I tapped and the hold was released. If I hadn't tapped, or if my partner had ill intent, my arm would have snapped. BTW, that's the benefit of working with living people, and not with pads or air.

In fact, the same thing happened in that video. The kid stuck in the headlock tapped, and the killer didn't let go. He maintained the lock, and eventually choked him to death. 

You only tap if there's no escape.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Except all your doubts were answered and you choose not to listen.  So if their answers are not good enough go do your own research



Yes just with no proof. I mean you can skirt around this all day. But you did not back up your statement. This is a normal thing.

OK let's look at it this way.

If I say you are wrong that I am a samurai and we often fought to the death.

Now what?


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Yes just with no proof. I mean you can skirt around this all day. But you did not back up your statement. This is a normal thing.
> 
> OK let's look at it this way.
> 
> ...



I would ask people with far more knowledge  in the topic people like Elder and Chris.  OR if I didn't believe them I'd go research it myself you know like in books and things.  Not just YouTube clips.


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, no you can't. You're assuming its the same amount of force.



No assumption.

Remember Will Geer, _ The Guns of Will Sonnett_? 

_No brag. Just *fact*_ :lfao:......wait a minute, that was 1967-maybe you don't remember....anyway

That incident at Jones Beach theater, where I popped the guy in the chest? I'd been spending a lot of time slapping pavers-gotten to the point where I could _slap_ five of them stood on end and break them.  Not a "stack," five pavers standing on end against each other like books on a bookshelf. Not a hammerfist, an open palm strike.....like the one I hit that guy with.

I didn't crack his chest, I reckon-though I'm sure he had a wicked bruise, come morning-because he was off-balance from drinking, and somewhat relaxed...probably thought it was okay to grope my wife, and wasn't tense about *that* at all.....but I hit him with enough force to send him over three rows of seats....I hit him like I'd been hitting those pavers, with maybe a little extra trunk rotation thrown in for good measure.

_Lucky_ I didn't kill him....


_No brag.*Just fact.*_...._Guns of Will Sonnett_....guess my voluminous memory has now betrayed my age....:lfao:....hey, Wes-I'm an old fart! 



			
				drop bear said:
			
		

> If I say you are wrong that I am a samurai and we often fought to the death.
> 
> Now what?




Now we call the nice men with the butterfly nets!!


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## Cirdan (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I think you are missing an important piece. You need to back up what you say. I can't prove things for you. That is silly. We could be saying any old thing.
> 
> And nothing gets discussed and you get all snarky pants.
> 
> ...



Hmm. Koryu practicioners` answer to questions regarding their art could be "saying any old thing", but wikipedia links are real proof. I see. The sun is coming up, back your cave now.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> It didn't break my arm because I tapped and the hold was released. If I hadn't tapped, or if my partner had ill intent, my arm would have snapped. BTW, that's the benefit of working with living people, and not with pads or air.
> 
> In fact, the same thing happened in that video. The kid stuck in the headlock tapped, and the killer didn't let go. He maintained the lock, and eventually choked him to death.
> 
> You only tap if there's no escape.



So you train effectively and SAFELY. Huh just like I do when I train strikes to sensitive places or do throws on Matts and not concrete.  Or train with simunitions instead of live rounds.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I would ask people with far more knowledge  in the topic people like Elder and Chris.  OR if I didn't believe them I'd go research it myself you know like in books and things.  Not just YouTube clips.



If they have the knowledge finding proof should be doable. This is what confuses me. Instead all I get is childishness. Which is fine I love a bit of childishness. But it does derail a thread.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> If they have the knowledge finding proof should be doable. This is what confuses me. Instead all I get is childishness. Which is fine I love a bit of childishness. But it does derail a thread.



Like I said I had no problem reading the answers to your questions.  In my opinion they answered what you asked for.  You choose to ignore the answer that's not the givers fault


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

Cirdan said:


> Hmm. Koryu practicioners` answer to questions regarding their art could be "saying any old thing", but wikipedia links are real proof. I see. The sun is coming up, back your cave now.



Are we really just going to dodge this all day?


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Like I said I had no problem reading the answers to your questions.  In my opinion they answered what you asked for.  You choose to ignore the answer that's not the givers fault



I haven't ignored anything.


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## Cirdan (Nov 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Are we really just going to dodge this all day?



You can face facts any time you know. That is all there is to it.


----------



## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

elder999 said:


> no assumption.
> 
> Remember will geer, _ the guns of will sonnett_?
> 
> ...



Again, you're comparing hitting something with hitting *nothing*. If you can punch a hole into concrete, then yeah, I'm going to guess that you have a strong punch. However, if you're punching air all day and not hitting anything, there's no way to gauge the force of your strikes.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So you train effectively and SAFELY. Huh just like I do when I train strikes to sensitive places or do throws on Matts and not concrete.  Or train with simunitions instead of live rounds.



There's a big difference between submitting someone with an armbar, and pulling a punch before you hit someone in the throat.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> There's a big difference between submitting someone with an armbar, and pulling a punch before you hit someone in the throat.



Says who


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Again, you're comparing hitting something with hitting *nothing*. If you can punch a hole into concrete, then yeah, I'm going to guess that you have a strong punch. However, if you're punching air all day and not hitting anything, there's no way to gauge the force of your strikes.


You keep assuming people only train one way.  I punch pads,air, makiwara,a cinder bock wall, other people, even a half a pig once to show ribs breaking, the red man suit, the Bob punching dummy.  I have many methods of training.  Not just shadow boxing


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Says who



Says reality. When you submit to someone you're surrendering to them, and acknowledging the success of their technique. You also admit that there was no way for you to escape with anything other than a break.

When you pull punches, you're not making contact. You never really know if you could have hurt or even hit your target or not. You don't make adjustments for size, weight, or height, because you're not actually hitting anything.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> You keep assuming people only train one way.  I punch pads,air, makiwara,a cinder bock wall, other people, even a half a pig once to show ribs breaking, the red man suit, the Bob punching dummy.  I have many methods of training.  Not just shadow boxing



You keep assuming that you began this conversation. This is a continuous response to post #81. I conversation you decided to jump into.


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## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Says reality. When you submit to someone you're surrendering to them, and acknowledging the success of their technique. You also admit that there was no way for you to escape with anything other than a break.


Or they were bored, or you stink, or they Hear their mom calling, or they feel bad for you or............... 



> When you pull punches, you're not making contact. You never really know if you could have hurt or even hit your target or not. You don't make adjustments for size, weight, or height, because you're not actually hitting anything.


Naa I'm smart enough to know if I would have made contact or not.  And I'm confident enough to know the outcome of said punch.  I also train with people of all different shapes sizes heights and weights so.......perhaps your dojo just doesn't know how to train striking properly it doesn't mean all dojos  don't know how


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## elder999 (Nov 2, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> You didn't really think he was suggesting bringing a claw hammer into a Judo contest? Cause really, if you did, I have no way to comprehend how you see the world .



Yeah, Chris-he kinda did.

And how awesome would that be??"?:lfao:


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> You keep assuming that you began this conversation. This is a continuous response to post #81. I conversation you decided to jump into.



And your assuming non-contact means they never use other training methods.


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Or they were bored, or you stink, or they Hear their mom calling, or they feel bad for you or...............



Uh okay. :uhoh:




> Naa I'm smart enough to know if I would have made contact or not.  And I'm confident enough to know the outcome of said punch.  I also train with people of all different shapes sizes heights and weights so.......



Unfortunately, you're simply making more assumptions. The only way to know for sure is making actual contact with maximum force.

But hey, at least you're confident. :lol:


----------



## ballen0351 (Nov 2, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Uh okay. :uhoh:


Ummm ok? People tap for all kinds of reasons







> Unfortunately, you're simply more assumptions. The only way to know for sure is making actual contact with maximum force.
> 
> But hey, at least you're confident. :lol:


And so do you since you dont actually break any ones arm or choke them to death


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## Grenadier (Nov 2, 2014)

*Administrator's note:*

Thread closed, pending staff review.   

-Ronald Shin
-MT Assistant Administrator


----------

