# Addressing people.



## Earl Weiss (Dec 9, 2020)

Some have commented as to my posts wherein I refer to someone as "Sir" or if appropriate "Mam" . Please do not read anything negative in to this.   As most know I am a Chang Hon  TK-D student and instructor. The system has deep military roots with the 5 tenets being core principles of the "Do"  with "Courtesy " being the most important. 

As such it is our practice in TK-D environs to practice courtesy by using "Sir" or "Mam" or appropriate title when addressing someone.   This extends to situations such as TKD / Martial arts environs on the internet. I have no issues with those who do not follow this convention and I hope none are insulted by the use of these terms.   Similarly my failure to use the term in appropriate circumstances should only be viewed as my failure to follow my habit and nothing bad should be implied.


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## Metal (Dec 9, 2020)

While Choi Hong Hi and the 'military' roots of Taekwondo had quite an impact on Taekwondo in Germany, we don't have a 'Sir' or 'Mam' equivalent at all over here. 

Actually, we had a discussion regarding the use of "Sir" in 2012:

The Sir Sandwich - "Sir, yes Sir!


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## skribs (Dec 12, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some have commented as to my posts wherein I refer to someone as "Sir" or if appropriate "Mam" . Please do not read anything negative in to this.   As most know I am a Chang Hon  TK-D student and instructor. The system has deep military roots with the 5 tenets being core principles of the "Do"  with "Courtesy " being the most important.
> 
> As such it is our practice in TK-D environs to practice courtesy by using "Sir" or "Mam" or appropriate title when addressing someone.   This extends to situations such as TKD / Martial arts environs on the internet. I have no issues with those who do not follow this convention and I hope none are insulted by the use of these terms.   Similarly my failure to use the term in appropriate circumstances should only be viewed as my failure to follow my habit and nothing bad should be implied.



I also hope you don't read into my not using "sir" as a sign of disrespect.  I just consider the internet to be less formal than class.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 13, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some have commented as to my posts wherein I refer to someone as "Sir" or if appropriate "Mam" . Please do not read anything negative in to this.   As most know I am a Chang Hon  TK-D student and instructor. The system has deep military roots with the 5 tenets being core principles of the "Do"  with "Courtesy " being the most important.



I wonder if this is different in ITF TK-D or in USA in general. As an Englishman, I think we use Sir very rarely (teachers at secondary school) and Ma'am almost never (the Queen or another member of the royal family is probably the only people I could think I'd use it to).

I use people's English Taekwondo titles when referring to them (I'll still often refer to you as GM Weiss here, even though we've been talking online for many years) and I'll happily use the Korean titles when speaking in Korean, but calling people Sir all the time feels very American to me.

While I agree that ITF TK-D has deep military roots (my Kwan didn't come from the military), it also came from the Korean military specifically, where as I understand it they also don't have a sir/ma'am equivalent - in Korean culture they use full titles + "nim" a LOT! So again, that feels like American values and practices applied over a Korean martial art.

Just my opinion though.


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## jobo (Dec 13, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I wonder if this is different in ITF TK-D or in USA in general. As an Englishman, I think we use Sir very rarely (teachers at secondary school) and Ma'am almost never (the Queen or another member of the royal family is probably the only people I could think I'd use it to).
> 
> I use people's English Taekwondo titles when referring to them (I'll still often refer to you as GM Weiss here, even though we've been talking online for many years) and I'll happily use the Korean titles when speaking in Korean, but calling people Sir all the time feels very American to me.
> 
> ...


as a fellow english man i agree the term is rare, how ever that gives you an advantage if you choose to use it in ussually situations, one) with the right internation you can weaponise it as an insult , second) it has a high sucess rate of getting you favourable treatment from aurthority, jumped up petty official cant help themselves from beibg flattered by the title, ingact people generaly react positively to requests if assistance if you adress them such

mam is a far more tricky one, its likely to annoy more people than it flatters, as its associated with being middled aged and mumsy

a friend of mine who was a jumped up petty official used to use imthe titlesliberally  when dealing with annoyed member of the public, which resulted in muliple complaints to his employer, that he ws being over polite, and as such belittling them, which of course was his intent, but very difficult to make a complaint stick


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 13, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I wonder if this is different in ITF TK-D or in USA in general. As an Englishman, I think we use Sir very rarely (teachers at secondary school) and Ma'am almost never (the Queen or another member of the royal family is probably the only people I could think I'd use it to).
> 
> I use people's English Taekwondo titles when referring to them (I'll still often refer to you as GM Weiss here, even though we've been talking online for many years) and I'll happily use the Korean titles when speaking in Korean, but calling people Sir all the time feels very American to me.
> 
> ...


Except in some areas of the South in the US, Sir/Mam is pretty rare outside the service industry. Folks waiting tables tend to use it, because it has a more polite connotation when you say "Yes, sir."


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## Deleted member 39746 (Dec 13, 2020)

The funny thing is, i tend to see military sytems shy away from those two.    But it cant beat somone using Sensei for TKD.


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## dvcochran (Dec 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some have commented as to my posts wherein I refer to someone as "Sir" or if appropriate "Mam" . Please do not read anything negative in to this.   As most know I am a Chang Hon  TK-D student and instructor. The system has deep military roots with the 5 tenets being core principles of the "Do"  with "Courtesy " being the most important.
> 
> As such it is our practice in TK-D environs to practice courtesy by using "Sir" or "Mam" or appropriate title when addressing someone.   This extends to situations such as TKD / Martial arts environs on the internet. I have no issues with those who do not follow this convention and I hope none are insulted by the use of these terms.   Similarly my failure to use the term in appropriate circumstances should only be viewed as my failure to follow my habit and nothing bad should be implied.


Sir, I agree and support your communication. 
As Gerry said, it is more prevalent in the south. Having grown up in a very southern culture where manners were stressed with repercussions, it is just part of my vernacular. It simply worked in my favor when I got involved in traditional MA's. 

Yes, I understand it can be said as a slur just as much as a sign of respect. This is all the more reason to use it accordingly and frequently. 
I am not certain what I would call being instantly offended by someone who uses a gesture of respect.

It is my experience that it is still an effective tool in almost any environment. Being able to say 'yes sir' to someone in a business meeting with confidence can swing a big hammer.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 17, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> As Gerry said, it is more prevalent in the south. Having grown up in a very southern culture where manners were stressed with repercussions, it is just part of my vernacular.



I assume (generally and because of your current location) you mean south/southern USA? I do find it funny when people say "the south" and "southern" without thinking about how others what that means to others in their own countries on a global forum.

I grew up in the south too, just outside of London ;-) 

Of course, that's not as far south as our African colleagues on this forum, let along our Taekwondo family from NZ/Australia  To them I'm a stinking northerner!


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## Buka (Dec 17, 2020)

Addressing people as sir or ma'am is as deeply ingrained in me as saying God bless you or gazuntite when someone sneezes.


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## Steve (Dec 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Except in some areas of the South in the US, Sir/Mam is pretty rare outside the service industry. Folks waiting tables tend to use it, because it has a more polite connotation when you say "Yes, sir."


Mam?  This isn't the first time I've seen this here, but I've never seen this spelling elsewhere.  Is this a new way to spell ma'am (which is a contraction of madam)?


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## dvcochran (Dec 17, 2020)

Steve said:


> Mam?  This isn't the first time I've seen this here, but I've never seen this spelling elsewhere.  Is this a new way to spell ma'am (which is a contraction of madam)?


They both work and are mostly interchangeable.

*Ma*'*am* is another written form for *Madam*, which is used to politely or respectfully address a woman. But actually '*Mam*' is a small version of mother, whereas, "*Ma*'*am*" is a contracted version of *Madam*.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> Mam?  This isn't the first time I've seen this here, but I've never seen this spelling elsewhere.  Is this a new way to spell ma'am (which is a contraction of madam)?


No, apparently autocorrect decided that's what I was trying to type.


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## Steve (Dec 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> No, apparently autocorrect decided that's what I was trying to type.


Learn something new every day.  I've never seen mam before.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 18, 2020)

Steve said:


> Learn something new every day.  I've never seen mam before.


I'd only ever seen it as a reference to a mother. I think it was more common in the South of the US perhaps in the 1800's. I'm fairly certain I've run across it in novels, as well, as an alternative to the British "mum" (perhaps Irish usage?), but I don't recall where.


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## Steve (Dec 18, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'd only ever seen it as a reference to a mother. I think it was more common in the South of the US perhaps in the 1800's. I'm fairly certain I've run across it in novels, as well, as an alternative to the British "mum" (perhaps Irish usage?), but I don't recall where.


Yeah, i googled it out of curiosity, and it looks like an Irish version of "mum", but never heard an American say it, and half my family is Southern.  This was almost as surprising to me as the day I learned that "literally" can mean either literally or figuratively.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 18, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I assume (generally and because of your current location) you mean south/southern USA? I do find it funny when people say "the south" and "southern" without thinking about how others what that means to others in their own countries on a global forum.
> 
> I grew up in the south too, just outside of London ;-)


Since this is TKD, there is also South Korea.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 18, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some have commented as to my posts wherein I refer to someone as "Sir" or if appropriate "Mam" . Please do not read anything negative in to this.  .



I know a few women who find "Ma'am" insulting, making them feel like old ladies, but I've never heard of any men having a problem with "Sir".


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## Steve (Dec 18, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I know a few women who find "Ma'am" insulting, making them feel like old ladies, but I've never heard of any men having a problem with "Sir".


I don't like sir and saying so is actually where this thread came from.  I don't think I'm the only one who doesn't like it. I would guess it's pretty common.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 19, 2020)

Steve said:


> I don't like sir...



Why is that? Does it seem not genuine to you? 

Personally , I hate "bro" and "dude".


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## Steve (Dec 19, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Why is that? Does it seem not genuine to you?
> 
> Personally , I hate "bro" and "dude".


Might be a little of that.  Hard to make it sound sincere.  

Bro and dude are very informal.  I'm not a huge fan of bud or guy, either.


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## jobo (Dec 19, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> They both work and are mostly interchangeable.
> 
> *Ma*'*am* is another written form for *Madam*, which is used to politely or respectfully address a woman. But actually '*Mam*' is a small version of mother, whereas, "*Ma*'*am*" is a contracted version of *Madam*.


almost mam is a shorten version of mammy, which is a near universal word across europe and the middle east, with its roots in acient Greek,  where it referes to mammary glands.
mum is what mam sounds like if you say it with an irish accent

both mum and mam are late words first recorded in the 1800s, roubd here both are used, though not interchangeably,  the first person is mum, in" mum have you seen my keys"  and the thid person is mam in" do you know where me mams has gone" ?

though the ma, in madam probebly has the same route


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> though the ma, in madam probebly has the same route


Derived from French, if I'm not mistaken. <<Ma dame>> being much the same as "my lady" - the <<ma>> being the first person possessive.


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## jobo (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Derived from French, if I'm not mistaken. <<Ma dame>> being much the same as "my lady" - the <<ma>> being the first person possessive.


and where was french derived from ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> and where was french derived from ?


I don't know the derivation of the French possesive, but I doubt it's from a mammary reference, since it fits with the other possessives (sa, ta).


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## jobo (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know the derivation of the French possesive, but I doubt it's from a mammary reference, since it fits with the other possessives (sa, ta).


is french derived in whole ir part from greek or latin, both use the term ma for female,


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## hoshin1600 (Dec 20, 2020)

i never understood the dislike of the word Sir.  i use it all the time.  mostly at work when making an affirmative remark to my bosses boss or higher.


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## jobo (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know the derivation of the French possesive, but I doubt it's from a mammary reference, since it fits with the other possessives (sa, ta).


never mind it comes from the latin for madonna, or lady , so latin not french???


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> is french derived in whole ir part from greek or latin, both use the term ma for female,


Okay.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> never mind it comes from the latin for madonna, or lady , so latin not french???


I just looked it up, and only found reference to derivation from French. I wouldn't be surprised if the French had some derivation from Italian, rather than directly from Latin.

Here's one of the references: madam | Origin and meaning of madam by Online Etymology Dictionary


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## jobo (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I just looked it up, and only found reference to derivation from French. I wouldn't be surprised if the French had some derivation from Italian, rather than directly from Latin.
> 
> Here's one of the references: madam | Origin and meaning of madam by Online Etymology Dictionary


litraly right at the top and in the middle of the link you posted,  it not like they hid it to confuse and confound your search for knolledge

from Old French ma dame, literally "my lady," from Latin mea domina

im less convinced now that it has the same route as mammy, but its still from the latin


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## jobo (Dec 20, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I just looked it up, and only found reference to derivation from French. I wouldn't be surprised if the French had some derivation from Italian, rather than directly from Latin.
> 
> Here's one of the references: madam | Origin and meaning of madam by Online Etymology Dictionary


its also difficult to see how it got into old french from italian, seems as it didnt exist in circa 1000ad, ( and nethwr of course did Italy, )the languiges in the italian region at the time was, you guessed it,, (vulgar) latin and greek,

what we now call italian was the developed as the languidge  if Tuscany,  and wasnt the official languide to 1925, when it was forced on a largly non speaking populas by the fascists, there are still 34( native) other languges in use in the Italy including vulgur latin, which tends to get used to communicate rather than italian,

so no not from italian


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> litraly right at the top and in the middle of the link you posted,  it not like they hid it to confuse and confound your search for knolledge
> 
> from Old French ma dame, literally "my lady," from Latin mea domina
> 
> im less convinced now that it has the same route as mammy, but its still from the latin


Ah. I thought you were saying it came directly from Latin. Most of French is derived directly or indirectly from Latin.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 20, 2020)

jobo said:


> its also difficult to see how it got into old french from italian, seems as it didnt exist in circa 1000ad, ( and nethwr of course did Italy, )the languiges in the italian region at the time was, you guessed it,, (vulgar) latin and greek,
> 
> what we now call italian was the developed as the languidge  if Tuscany,  and wasnt the official languide to 1925, when it was forced on a largly non speaking populas by the fascists, there are still 34( native) other languges in use in the Italy including vulgur latin, which tends to get used to communicate rather than italian,
> 
> so no not from italian


I wasn't clear in what I was saying. You are correct in this post.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 22, 2020)

Next someone will say they take issue with "Good morning"


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## Steve (Dec 22, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Ah. I thought you were saying it came directly from Latin. Most of French is derived directly or indirectly from Latin.


French is, after all, a romance language.  Right?  French, Romanian, Italian, Portuguese, and Spanish... all derived from Latin.  So, it would stand to reason that there is a pretty direct line from the Latin roots.  France has also been a lot more protective of their language, and the Académie Française fights vehemently (if often unsuccessfully) against the tide of foreign loanwords.


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## Steve (Dec 22, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Next someone will say they take issue with "Good morning"


Don't tell me what kind of morning to have!


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## jobo (Dec 22, 2020)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Next someone will say they take issue with "Good morning"


quite likely,  its an inherently religous phrase, which will clearly annoy both of those with no faith and those of a different faith that the one being identified with, and possobly a few feminists as they are offended at just about everything 

better steer clear


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## Steve (Dec 22, 2020)

jobo said:


> quite likely,  its an inherently religous phrase, which will clearly annoy both of those with no faith and those of a different faith that the one being identified with, and possobly a few feminists as they are offended at just about everything
> 
> better steer clear


inherently religous [sic]?  That's a new one.


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## Tman (Dec 29, 2020)

At the school I attend we use Sir and Ma'am to address everyone.   All black belts are addressed as Mr or Ms then last name.    When we recite the oath in the beginning and end of class we start and end it with "Sir" as our head instructors is male, out of habit when on the occasions have a female instructor many will still say "Sir"  which is always good for a chuckle.  Most times the female instructor is understanding.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 29, 2020)

Tman said:


> At the school I attend we use Sir and Ma'am to address everyone.   All black belts are addressed as Mr or Ms then last name.    When we recite the oath in the beginning and end of class we start and end it with "Sir" as our head instructors is male, out of habit when on the occasions have a female instructor many will still say "Sir"  which is always good for a chuckle.  Most times the female instructor is understanding.


You guys have an oath? The mr/ms and sir/ma'am is more formal than I'd like, but common enough. But I don't think I've ever seen an oath that's said at the beginning _or_ end of class (nevermind both). Is this a normal thing in TKD?


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## jobo (Dec 29, 2020)

Tman said:


> At the school I attend we use Sir and Ma'am to address everyone.   All black belts are addressed as Mr or Ms then last name.    When we recite the oath in the beginning and end of class we start and end it with "Sir" as our head instructors is male, out of habit when on the occasions have a female instructor many will still say "Sir"  which is always good for a chuckle.  Most times the female instructor is understanding.


hmm, that soubds a bit like a cult?

what differance does it make, to you learning ma, if you call the instructor sir, his his royal highness or dave

id have a very strong adversion, to calling peopke sir by demand

, when im the customer and they ate the ones providibg the servive, no chance,, if it was free id consider it, if im paying,  there noway im buying into them having morally  higher station


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## jobo (Dec 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You guys have an oath? The mr/ms and sir/ma'am is more formal than I'd like, but common enough. But I don't think I've ever seen an oath that's said at the beginning _or_ end of class (nevermind both). Is this a normal thing in TKD?


we used to do the oath every week at cub scouts, but then we were 8 and prone to forget things

adult should be able to go a few months in between


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You guys have an oath? The mr/ms and sir/ma'am is more formal than I'd like, but common enough. But I don't think I've ever seen an oath that's said at the beginning _or_ end of class (nevermind both). Is this a normal thing in TKD?


I've seen a few places where a creed of some sort (sometimes called an "oath", but really more philosophical) is recited at the beginning of class. It's more common IME in schools that teach mostly (or only) kids.


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## Tman (Dec 29, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I've seen a few places where a creed of some sort (sometimes called an "oath", but really more philosophical) is recited at the beginning of class. It's more common IME in schools that teach mostly (or only) kids.



You are correct it is more of a statement of Philosophy then an oath, reminder of the tenants of TKD.  We use one to open the class/event and another to close.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 29, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You guys have an oath? The mr/ms and sir/ma'am is more formal than I'd like, but common enough. But I don't think I've ever seen an oath that's said at the beginning _or_ end of class (nevermind both). Is this a normal thing in TKD?


At the end of class every now and then we'd repeat the Dojo Kun (which is essentially an oath of sorts), the instructor would say each line and we'd repeat after. I loved it... it was never a pledge of blood or anything hehe, but just a reminder as to what our training and style was about, and the intention we hold in training it. Was mainly character traits we aspire to, humility, discipline etc


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 30, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You guys have an oath? The mr/ms and sir/ma'am is more formal than I'd like, but common enough. But I don't think I've ever seen an oath that's said at the beginning _or_ end of class (nevermind both). Is this a normal thing in TKD?


Chang Hon has a "Student Oath"


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> hmm, that soubds a bit like a cult?


General Choi makes that analogy.


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> At the end of class every now and then we'd repeat the Dojo Kun (which is essentially an oath of sorts), the instructor would say each line and we'd repeat after. I loved it... it was never a pledge of blood or anything hehe, but just a reminder as to what our training and style was about, and the intention we hold in training it. Was mainly character traits we aspire to, humility, discipline etc


what if you dont actualy aspire to humility? do you have to lie or do you get a pass as a conscientious  objector?,


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> what if you dont actualy aspire to humility? do you have to lie or do you get a pass as a conscientious  objector?,


If you don't aspire to humility, why train someplace that emphasizes it as part of the philosophy?


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If you don't aspire to humility, why train someplace that emphasizes it as part of the philosophy?


is it made a condition of joining, ?  only people with humility should apply,

if your caught not showing enough himility do they exspell you?

if not, its all just nonesence and how the hell, do you define humility,  any one showibg pride in their progress is all ready breaking the rules

im suprised then dont just requite absenance from the 7 deadly sins, it does sound more like the church

oy , you the fat one, no gluttony allowed


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If you don't aspire to humility, why train someplace that emphasizes it as part of the philosophy?


Humility is a trait, not a skill.  As with any entrenched personality trait, If someone isn't humble, it would take a significant life event to change them.  And even then, they are as likely to reject the lesson as not.  

Reciting a pledge of humility in a class isn't going to do it.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> what if you dont actualy aspire to humility? do you have to lie or do you get a pass as a conscientious  objector?,


I would say humility is a pretty essential precursor to learning (and continued learning), on some level.

It's not like you get punished if you fall short haha. But it's what the style entails, and it's actually a really nice emphasis.

If you don't agree with an important aspect of a place, probably don't train there. If you don't like the bowing either, well, it probably won't suit you either.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> is it made a condition of joining, ?  only people with humility should apply,
> 
> if your caught not showing enough himility do they exspell you?
> 
> ...



Hehe.. they are interesting questions, but you may be overthinking it.

It's just something you're trying to develop within yourself. If your punch isn't quite right, they're not going to expel you hey .

It's not a condition of entry, but something you develop there that actually HELPS you learn.

Another of the dojo kun is "We will train our hearts and bodies for a firm unshaking spirit." They won't reject you because you show weakness. It's a work in progress sorta thing.

But even so, humility is sort of a condition to learning anyway, so if you go into the dojo all arrogant, dismissing everything your instructor says, puffing up your chest as if you know better, refusing to listen etc, it probably: a) won't be a good fit, OR b) be a great fit if you're truly willing to work through that.


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## jobo (Dec 30, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Hehe.. they are interesting questions, but you may be overthinking it.
> 
> It's just something you're trying to develop within yourself. If your punch isn't quite right, they're not going to expel you hey .
> 
> ...


buy as steve said above, humility inst a learnt skill, its a personality trait and not really a very good one its no better or worse than an abundance of arrogance, though it may actually be worse, some people have a lot to be humble about, so they find it easy

if you know your superior to every one else its very difficult to even fake it, but i try some times, but even then it gets perceived as condescending, by humble people, but no one cares much what humble people think, have you noticed the similarities between humility and humiliated, thats not a coincidence

is it a condition of learning ? im trying to think how many successful people have a good deal of humility,,,, EEEER,,, no not getting anything


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

jobo said:


> is it made a condition of joining, ?  only people with humility should apply,
> 
> if your caught not showing enough himility do they exspell you?
> 
> ...


You’re deflecting. Why sign up at a place where the philosophy doesn’t match your goals?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 30, 2020)

Steve said:


> Humility is a trait, not a skill.  As with any entrenched personality trait, If someone isn't humble, it would take a significant life event to change them.  And even then, they are as likely to reject the lesson as not.
> 
> Reciting a pledge of humility in a class isn't going to do it.


No, It won’t. But humility can be cultivated. It’s not an immutable trait, in my experience.


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> I would say humility is a pretty essential precursor to learning (and continued learning), on some level.
> 
> It's not like you get punished if you fall short haha. But it's what the style entails, and it's actually a really nice emphasis.
> 
> If you don't agree with an important aspect of a place, probably don't train there. If you don't like the bowing either, well, it probably won't suit you either.


Very few elite level athletes get there by believing they're only pretty good.  

Don't get me wrong. I think humility is a laudable trait, but arrogant people learn new things all the time.  In fact, I could be argued that at some point, too much humility can be as limiting to development as too little humility.


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> No, It won’t. But humility can be cultivated. It’s not an immutable trait, in my experience.


That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults.  It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity.  And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback. 

We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained.  Changing them generally requires some life altering event.


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## Steve (Dec 30, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You’re deflecting. Why sign up at a place where the philosophy doesn’t match your goals?


you don't become more humble  by talking about humility.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> Very few elite level athletes get there by believing they're only pretty good.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I think humility is a laudable trait, but arrogant people learn new things all the time.  In fact, I could be argued that at some point, too much humility can be as limiting to development as too little humility.



Yeah for sure, I think it may come down to what we define humility as, or what context it's applied. I don't mean humility as in self-deprecating beliefs, but as a realization that I of myself don't know everything, and I am willing and open to learn. 

Definitely excessive humility is quite stifling ("ohh I don't know aaaaanythiiiing.."). And of course arrogant folk can learn. BUT there has to be a degree of humility for you to be willing to learn I'd say. To be willing to learn is to admit that I haven't perfected something, I haven't learned everything. To me, humility is not a belief that "I'm horrible at life, I'm incapable" etc etc, but an attitude of stepping back, lowering any self-inflation to put you in a better position to be receptive to life and learning.

I think it depends on if a person's errr.. persona as a GENERALITY is arrogant, but can display humility within the context of learning something they want to pursue is maybe the point of distinction here. I certainly am not decreeing the meaning of any of these, just trying to flesh it out a bit maybe; it seems as though it (arrogance/humility) could be an "overall personality trait", or a trait to employ through the use of learning, or to aid/hinder certain specific situations....

As for believing it's a trait that can't be learned that's fair enough, I do get what you mean. We'll have to agree to disagree there, I feel it may get into the nature vs nurture debate which I will step aside there XD.

Things like respect, humility etc are only available to those willing to drop any obstacles to that. Sometimes it certainly does take really life altering events for sure!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> Very few elite level athletes get there by believing they're only pretty good.
> 
> Don't get me wrong. I think humility is a laudable trait, but arrogant people learn new things all the time.  In fact, I could be argued that at some point, too much humility can be as limiting to development as too little humility.


You and I must be defining arrogance differently. If someone is arrogant about their punching, they don't see there's anything new this person (whoever they are) can teach them about it. So they don't learn. They may have some general arrogance, but have a more open mind (and some humility) about their technique, so perhaps that's what your'e talking about.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults.  It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity.  And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.
> 
> We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained.  Changing them generally requires some life altering event.


It's rare that someone will change if they're highly arrogant - that's true. And yes, they'd have to be somewhat receptive to feedback to change. Some folks become more arrogant under stress, so it fluctuates. I think personality types (which are thought to be hard-wired in brain development) tend more toward arrogance than others, and that tendency can't be changed. But the expressed (and felt) level can be. Arrogance is an over-extension of personality traits, in many cases.

As you say, if they're not interested in changing, they won't. But I think that's true of almost anything. As for the habit of arrogance being more changeable among kids, I think that's why things like credos and oaths are more common in schools focused on them. Personally, I'm not interested in dealing with someone who's arrogant, and I doubt I'm the right person to help them change that, so they just won't want to train with me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> you don't become more humble  by talking about humility.


No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?


This doesn't apply to the particular elements stated, but if I choose to train somewhere it may be because there are certain elements I think they excel at and can help me with. That does not mean I have to accept everything they espouse.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> I would say humility is a pretty essential precursor to learning (and continued learning), on some level.
> 
> It's not like you get punished if you fall short haha. But it's what the style entails, and it's actually a really nice emphasis.
> 
> If you don't agree with an important aspect of a place, probably don't train there. If you don't like the bowing either, well, it probably won't suit you either.


One of the simplest lessons in MA is bowing. And one of the toughest for some people.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

jobo said:


> buy as steve said above, humility inst a learnt skill, its a personality trait and not really a very good one its no better or worse than an abundance of arrogance, though it may actually be worse, some people have a lot to be humble about, so they find it easy
> 
> if you know your superior to every one else its very difficult to even fake it, but i try some times, but even then it gets perceived as condescending, by humble people, but no one cares much what humble people think, have you noticed the similarities between humility and humiliated, thats not a coincidence
> 
> is it a condition of learning ? im trying to think how many successful people have a good deal of humility,,,, EEEER,,, no not getting anything


Matthew 5:5.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults.  It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity.  And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.
> 
> We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained.  Changing them generally requires some life altering event.



My experience is quite the opposite. In the nearly 40 years of teaching MA's nationwide I have seen a Lot of arrogance washed out and humility added in to people of all walks of life. And this is not specific to any one type of personality. 
The most dramatic changes I have seen is people transforming from being shy, timid, or bashful, to humble. It is definitely easier for a confident to engrain/improve humility. Low self esteem is tough.

A hard concept for some people to understand is that there is never any shame when being humble. These two emotions and physical expressions are often confused.
You can be proud and humble. You can be overtly passionate and humble. In narrow circumstances you can even be aggressive and humble. 

The kind of thinking that @Steve is expressing is becoming frightfully more common in MA's. Styles/sports like MMA and their overt philosophy (or lack thereof) of pushing the agenda that the "body, mind, spirit" ideology in most older MA's is crap. It is sometimes shocking how deep and far away from center this is carried. 
With certainty, a sound martial arts program will engrain qualities like humility into a person. The time it takes to engrain these qualities is different for everyone because of all the human conditions one can think of to list.

Humility and confidence are much closer bedfellows than you think.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

Steve said:


> That hasn't been my experience. Or I should say it's rare in adults.  It's like cultivating empathy in an adult, or integrity.  And it's only possible if the person is coachable and receptive to feedback.
> 
> We may just disagree, though, because I think traits are pretty well ingrained.  Changing them generally requires some life altering event.


I would come very close to saying empathy and integrity are opposing when it comes to  'learning' them. A persons life circumstances or culture affect overt empathy I think. But I believe it to be a mostly born in trait so while they may not express empathy overtly I believe they still feel it. 
Integrity is as much a taught quality as anything else. If a person is raised up learning, witnessing, and being in and around integrity, it will dictate their actions throughout life. 

All this emotional/character stuff we are talking about. Is any of this 100% all of the time? Absolutely not.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Yeah for sure, I think it may come down to what we define humility as, or what context it's applied. I don't mean humility as in self-deprecating beliefs, but as a realization that I of myself don't know everything, and I am willing and open to learn.
> 
> Definitely excessive humility is quite stifling ("ohh I don't know aaaaanythiiiing.."). And of course arrogant folk can learn. BUT there has to be a degree of humility for you to be willing to learn I'd say. To be willing to learn is to admit that I haven't perfected something, I haven't learned everything. To me, humility is not a belief that "I'm horrible at life, I'm incapable" etc etc, but an attitude of stepping back, lowering any self-inflation to put you in a better position to be receptive to life and learning.
> 
> ...


Great post.  It's very contextual.  Some very arrogant people will humble themselves within a particular context.  

And to be clear, traits can be encouraged and evolve.  They are just much more reliant on the person's willingness to change them, which is often only the case if they are experiencing some life changing event.  

But either way, folks can learn without humility, though it can certainly limit progress.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> You and I must be defining arrogance differently. If someone is arrogant about their punching, they don't see there's anything new this person (whoever they are) can teach them about it. So they don't learn. They may have some general arrogance, but have a more open mind (and some humility) about their technique, so perhaps that's what your'e talking about.


I think that's just overconfidence.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> It's rare that someone will change if they're highly arrogant - that's true. And yes, they'd have to be somewhat receptive to feedback to change. Some folks become more arrogant under stress, so it fluctuates. I think personality types (which are thought to be hard-wired in brain development) tend more toward arrogance than others, and that tendency can't be changed. But the expressed (and felt) level can be. Arrogance is an over-extension of personality traits, in many cases.
> 
> As you say, if they're not interested in changing, they won't. But I think that's true of almost anything. As for the habit of arrogance being more changeable among kids, I think that's why things like credos and oaths are more common in schools focused on them. Personally, I'm not interested in dealing with someone who's arrogant, and I doubt I'm the right person to help them change that, so they just won't want to train with me.


For sure, people react differently under stress.

Regarding arrogant folks, I agree.  I ignore a couple folks here for that very reason.


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> No. That doesn't really have much to do with what I said, though. If someone isn't interested in peace, why go to a school that promotes peace? If someone doesn't have an interest in kicks, why train TKD? If they don't have an interest in becoming more humble, why train somewhere that espouses humility as a laudable trait?


I see what you mean now.  If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me.  But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning.  I still learned history, algebra, and language arts.  How would this be any different?


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## Steve (Dec 31, 2020)

Just to clarify my point because I'm worried it's being lost in translation.   Humility is a trait, and like all core traits and values, it takes two things for them to change.  First, an openness to it, and second, a catalyst for it (i.e, a significant life event).  I've seen a lot of guys experience this in BJJ and they don't last long if they aren't willing to change.


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## Hanshi (Dec 31, 2020)

I've always referred to my own abilities as merely "average", "adequate" and never as "good".  Usually in my own dojo or around my (and other's) students, the various titles of sensei, hanshi, grandmaster, sir and sometimes even simply my name is used; and I'm okay with anything as long as it's okay for children to hear.  Often in social situations I'm addressed with a title.  But in my view titles appropriate for the dojo have no need to be used OUTSIDE the dojo.  In a high ranking teacher's (and very dear friend's) dojo where I last trained along with the students I, like his students, addressed him as "sir" even though we were the same rank.  Outside the dojo I addressed with his first name.  It varies from dojang to dojang and teacher to teacher, but it doesn't feel right for a teacher to _require _students to use a title for addressing him/her.  If the style/art/founder has the tradition of using titles, that would be the notable exception.

I know of some dojo/teachers who address the students as "sir" and I think it's a nice tradition.


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## dvcochran (Dec 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I would come very close to saying empathy and integrity are opposing when it comes to  'learning' them. A persons life circumstances or culture affect overt empathy I think. But I believe it to be a mostly born in trait so while they may not express empathy overtly I believe they still feel it.
> Integrity is as much a taught quality as anything else. If a person is raised up learning, witnessing, and being in and around integrity, it will dictate their actions throughout life.
> 
> All this emotional/character stuff we are talking about. Is any of this 100% all of the time? Absolutely not.


***EDIT***
After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood. 
To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone. 
How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.


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## jobo (Jan 1, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> ***EDIT***
> After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood.
> To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone.
> How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.


people  are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it

ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility,  i just come back stronger,  literally  and figuratively,  untill i get even

i was sat outside my coffee  bar, when some old bloke shambled up, on two walking  sticks, he made the mistake of introducibg himself and i realised he was one of the older kids at school.

so i took his sticks off him and broke them, thats what you get for stealing my lunch money in 1973, the look on his face when i handed the broken bits back was priceless


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## Steve (Jan 1, 2021)

jobo said:


> people  are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it
> 
> ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility,  i just come back stronger,  literally  and figuratively,  untill i get even
> 
> ...


I believe you.


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## jobo (Jan 1, 2021)

Steve said:


> I believe you.


i spent all of my five years at high school trying not to get beaten up, and failing mostly i was very small as an early  teen, and a big chunk of the next 5 tracking them down and extracting revenge,  funny how they didnt want to fight when i was 6 inches bigger,, some let it lie if they begged, others that was not nearly enough

there is no expirary date on my grievances,  once your in the grudge book your in for life, eventually il get them

that guy was three years older, much bigger, when he head butted me and took my money,  he got of lightly


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Earl Weiss said:


> This doesn't apply to the particular elements stated, but if I choose to train somewhere it may be because there are certain elements I think they excel at and can help me with. That does not mean I have to accept everything they espouse.


Agreed. I'm speaking of the principles placed so prominently (like kicking in TKD). If those are of no interest, why would the school be of much interest? In a theoretical situation, we might be able to conjure up a reason, but in reality there are so many options it's unlikely that would be a worthwhile decision most of the time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Matthew 5:5.


Can you tell us what you mean, for those of us who haven't memorized that book?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> Great post.  It's very contextual.  Some very arrogant people will humble themselves within a particular context.
> 
> And to be clear, traits can be encouraged and evolve.  They are just much more reliant on the person's willingness to change them, which is often only the case if they are experiencing some life changing event.
> 
> But either way, folks can learn without humility, though it can certainly limit progress.


Another thought occurred to me on this. We also tend to adopt behaviors and attitudes of those around us. If a group regularly expresses humility (I'm not talking about the oath - that's just a reminder), the members are individually more likely to express it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think that's just overconfidence.


My experience is that overconfidence is often accompanied by (and often caused by, though it's hard to be certain of causality) arrogance. I've seen people who were overconfident but not arrogant. I can't think of having seen the opposite, though.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> I see what you mean now.  If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me.  But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning.  I still learned history, algebra, and language arts.  How would this be any different?


Same for me.

And I would never sign up for those schools, then complain about the religion. Here's where the exceptions come in and we step into hypotheticals. If the school that promotes humility has the best fight training in the city, someone not interested in developing humility might still want to train there. But someone who expresses distain for that aspect of the school is unlikely to thrive there (if the school actually stands by their credo), so even with its good training, it would be a poor choice for them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> Just to clarify my point because I'm worried it's being lost in translation.   Humility is a trait, and like all core traits and values, it takes two things for them to change.  First, an openness to it, and second, a catalyst for it (i.e, a significant life event).  I've seen a lot of guys experience this in BJJ and they don't last long if they aren't willing to change.


BJJ's model tends to encourage humility (either by developing it, or discouraging those who don't have it - as you said). They're going to be submitted a lot pretty early in training. Unless they are a rare specimen, they'll need to be humble enough to be okay with that process. Arrogant people would typically only survive in that environment if they can dominate far more often than not.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

Hanshi said:


> I've always referred to my own abilities as merely "average", "adequate" and never as "good".  Usually in my own dojo or around my (and other's) students, the various titles of sensei, hanshi, grandmaster, sir and sometimes even simply my name is used; and I'm okay with anything as long as it's okay for children to hear.  Often in social situations I'm addressed with a title.  But in my view titles appropriate for the dojo have no need to be used OUTSIDE the dojo.  In a high ranking teacher's (and very dear friend's) dojo where I last trained along with the students I, like his students, addressed him as "sir" even though we were the same rank.  Outside the dojo I addressed with his first name.  It varies from dojang to dojang and teacher to teacher, but it doesn't feel right for a teacher to _require _students to use a title for addressing him/her.  If the style/art/founder has the tradition of using titles, that would be the notable exception.
> 
> I know of some dojo/teachers who address the students as "sir" and I think it's a nice tradition.


When I was coming up through the ranks in NGA, everyone was Mr./Mrs./Ms. Sometimes honoraries were used for instructors (sir or sensei), but mostly they were also Mr. ________. That's not my style, and doesn't continue with my students, but I kinda miss it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> ***EDIT***
> After re-reading my post from yesterday I can certainly see where my last comment can be misunderstood.
> To clarify, I meant all the emotional stuff is not consistent. In my opinion, character changes and sometimes even wanes for some people. But it is a basic trait which I believe we all have. What brings it out and how it is cultured/nurtured is different for everyone.
> How 'loudly' it is seen in a person is also different for everyone.


Every personality trait (the stuff that is wired into our brains) can be expressed in different ways. And all can be suppressed for periods (talkative people can be quiet, for instance). Learning when and how to express/suppress is a large part of emotional intelligence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> people  are talkibg as uf beibg humble is a positive trait and humilating people, to teach them humility is good for them, thats largely the attitude of bullies, there are suruations were it can be handy, but you can fake it, you dont have to be it
> 
> ive been humbled a few times in my life,, that hasnt given me great humility,  i just come back stronger,  literally  and figuratively,  untill i get even
> 
> ...


Where did someone talk about humiliating people? I must have missed that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> i spent all of my five years at high school trying not to get beaten up, and failing mostly i was very small as an early  teen, and a big chunk of the next 5 tracking them down and extracting revenge,  funny how they didnt want to fight when i was 6 inches bigger,, some let it lie if they begged, others that was not nearly enough
> 
> there is no expirary date on my grievances,  once your in the grudge book your in for life, eventually il get them
> 
> that guy was three years older, much bigger, when he head butted me and took my money,  he got of lightly


I was the same way in school. Oddly, I didn't find it necessary to look any of those guys up afterward. I just went on and lived life, pretty much forgot about the stupid things some other kids did. Didn't really matter.


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## dvcochran (Jan 2, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Can you tell us what you mean, for those of us who haven't memorized that book?


*Matthew 5:5*, NLT: "God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth."


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## Buka (Jan 2, 2021)

Steve said:


> I see what you mean now.  If the school is run much like a temple (which I've heard of) then yeah, it wouldn't be for me.  But I went to religious schools as a kid, catholic for a year and lutheran for two. I'm not religious but had no issues politely bowing my head for prayer or attending devotions every Wednesday morning.  I still learned history, algebra, and language arts.  How would this be any different?



I grew up in Boston in the sixties. All the kids that went to Parochial schools were the craziest kids we ever knew.

When they finished school each day they were absolute madmen.

Did you experience that where you were, Steve?


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## Steve (Jan 2, 2021)

Buka said:


> I grew up in Boston in the sixties. All the kids that went to Parochial schools were the craziest kids we ever knew.
> 
> When they finished school each day they were absolute madmen.
> 
> Did you experience that where you were, Steve?


Not really. There were a few of us who smoked cigarettes and weed, but nothing too crazy.  The crazy was at garfield where I went to high school.


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> is french derived in whole ir part from greek or latin, both use the term ma for female,



Somebody may have comment on this later from your post, but French is from the latin family of languages, just as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and several others.


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## jobo (Jan 2, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> Somebody may have comment on this later from your post, but French is from the latin family of languages, just as Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, and several others.


so that would make me correct then


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## jobo (Jan 2, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> *Matthew 5:5*, NLT: "God blesses those who are humble, for they will inherit the whole earth."


thats sounds like a fake promises , when is this supposed to happen, ? its close to three million years the humble have been waiting , he may move in mysterious ways, but obviously not very quickly, do you think he may manqge it before the,sun swallows the earth, it not much use after


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 2, 2021)

jobo said:


> so that would make me correct then



In that, yes.


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## dvcochran (Jan 3, 2021)

jobo said:


> thats sounds like a fake promises , when is this supposed to happen, ? its close to three million years the humble have been waiting , he may move in mysterious ways, but obviously not very quickly, do you think he may manqge it before the,sun swallows the earth, it not much use after


Blank post.

I had written something but did not want to get it censored. I will just say your 'earth' is the key word in the verse.


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## Ivan (Jan 4, 2021)

andyjeffries said:


> I wonder if this is different in ITF TK-D or in USA in general. As an Englishman, I think we use Sir very rarely (teachers at secondary school) and Ma'am almost never (the Queen or another member of the royal family is probably the only people I could think I'd use it to).
> 
> I use people's English Taekwondo titles when referring to them (I'll still often refer to you as GM Weiss here, even though we've been talking online for many years) and I'll happily use the Korean titles when speaking in Korean, but calling people Sir all the time feels very American to me.
> 
> ...


My club always addresses superiors as Sir or Ma'am. I never realised this might be why. Our instructors came from ITF but altered the curriculum slightly for the club (specifically some of the forms).


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