# Ninja-To



## Hanzo04 (Jun 23, 2005)

hi. Does anybody know if there is a company that sells the original styling of the ninja sword with the curve in the blade? or do i have to go to Japan and talk to Dr. Hatsumi?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 23, 2005)

What makes you think talking to Hatsumi sensei might help you acquire a shinobigatana?

This is my suggestion: from what I've gathered the Paul Chen Practical Katana Plus and Practical Wakizashi Plus can both be disassembled. Buy both, take off the handle of the katana and put it on the wakizashi, put the wakizashi in the saya of the katana and voilá - instant shinobigatana.


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## MisterMike (Jun 23, 2005)

> take off the handle of the katana and put it on the wakizashi



Did you confirm if the holes still line up (from the tang of the wakizashi to the tsuka of the katana)?

Not a bad idea if it works.


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## Blindside (Jun 23, 2005)

????

A thirteen inch handle on a twenty inch blade?  Sounds more like a dha to me.  Can anyone provide a picture of a historical version of this sword?

Thanks,

Lamont


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jun 23, 2005)

Don't know if it will work to use the tsuka of the katana on the wakizashi. www.swordstore.com might be able to provide a custom shinobigatana. From what I remember the Togakure ryu preferred a sword with a blade length of about 50 centimeters. Hatsumi sensei used to sell iaito custom made to fit Togakure ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu etc. up until about two years ago. They've been sold out for quite some time now, but I did hear something about plans for a tachi size mogito.


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## mizu_teppo (Jun 28, 2005)

For the practical plus idea, if the mekugi don't line up you could just drill an extra one. But the size of the fittings might just not line up at all (the blade might not fit in the saya, the nagako might be much too small for the tsuka, etc.). But the cheaper and easier way to go would be to just get the wakizashi blade and make your own tsuba, tsuka, and saya. That way you could make it to the exact traditional little detail while using a decent forged blade. Since the ninja were known to make their own equipment, it wouldn't be a bad idea to learn how to make this kind of stuff outside of your training. But if you're determined to be lazy, I guess you could also get the wakizashi blade and send it to someone like Ed Green from budoweapons.com and have him custom mount the blade with the fittings of your description for a fair amount of money.

 There's tons of oppertunities out there to get real ninja-to.


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## stephen (Jun 28, 2005)

Hanzo04 said:
			
		

> hi. Does anybody know if there is a company that sells the original styling of the ninja sword with the curve in the blade? or do i have to go to Japan and talk to Dr. Hatsumi?




You should go to a dojo and speak with an instructor.


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## mizu_teppo (Jun 29, 2005)

Another idea if you have tons of money is to switch the fittings of a cold steel blade. Like use the wakizashi with the chisa katana fittings, or the katana fittings. Personally though, I'd say it's a waste of money. Then again, the last time I saw a real shinken ninja-to from Japan, it was around $6000 USD I think. So I guess it's not THAT bad...


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## Bakufu (Jun 29, 2005)

For the uninitiated - what does the original shinken ninja-to look like ?


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## mizu_teppo (Jun 30, 2005)

Bakufu said:
			
		

> For the uninitiated - what does the original shinken ninja-to look like ?









 Like this. Blade length varies anywhere from about 18 to 22 inches with a 10 to 12 inch tsuka, the sageo was longer and thicker, the tsuba was the commonly four petalled type, the saya was slightly longer than the blade for things like metsubushi, etc. These are the most common specifications.


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## Bakufu (Jun 30, 2005)

Thanks mizu_teppo. I appreciate it!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 1, 2005)

Note that the sword lacks a blood groove.


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## Tamayoke (Jul 1, 2005)

I have four ninjato from Soke, and on one of the production runs there is a bohi. I've also been fortunate enough to see some of his historical models and a few of them have bohi as well. There are reasons why this is, and they are addressed in an article I'm in the process of writing on the ninjato. However, once it's completed I haven't decided yet whether to publish it online due to the pseudo-ninjutsu organizations that might take what's written (like some have done with Don Roley's writings for instance), and use it to add credence to their claims.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 1, 2005)

Luke, 

Welcome to Martial Talk!  It's a pleasure to have you here, I hope you share your knowlage and expertise with the board!

I'm sorry I missed your seminar here recently, my instructor was there, and said you were nothing short of Amazing!  

So, again, welcome to MT, and happy posting!


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## Dale Seago (Jul 1, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> and said you were nothing short of Amazing!



Some of our women here in SF still live in unrequited hope of discovering the "nothing short" part. . .


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## Shogun (Jul 1, 2005)

> You should go to a dojo and speak with an instructor.


  ah, weak. nothing better than that? lol.



> Some of our women here in SF still live in unrequited hope of discovering the "nothing short" part. . .


Tsk tsk tsk!


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## Don Roley (Jul 1, 2005)

Tamayoke said:
			
		

> However, once it's completed I haven't decided yet whether to publish it online due to the pseudo-ninjutsu organizations that might take what's written (like some have done with Don Roley's writings for instance), and use it to add credence to their claims.



Hi Luke,
Welcome to Martialtalk. Love your screen name. It is the warrior name you got from Nagase, right? "Bullet stopper" is such a wonderfull image. 
 

Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from on the information thing. I can bet you dollars to donuts that someone is going to take what you wrote, change it around a little and try to pass it off as wisdom from the master they can't reveal to anyone else.


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## Kizaru (Jul 2, 2005)

Tamayoke said:
			
		

> Luke Molitor
> Jigoku Dojo
> http://www.jigokudojo.com


Luke...*I* am your father!!! :jediduel: :jediduel:


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## silatman (Jul 3, 2005)

Check out the website www.castlekeep.co.uk
This guy is a bladesmith and for the right price he will make you anything and it is all hand forged.
Last I checked he was getting involved with japanese style swords due to peoples responses.


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## Don Roley (Jul 3, 2005)

Kizaru said:
			
		

> Luke...*I* am your father!!! :jediduel: :jediduel:



Yeah, like he has never heard that joke before.
 

I swear Kizaru, I get the feeling that someday you are going to be the death of me. :duel: Hope you have a good supply of French Vanilla coffee- 'cause I doubt Tamayoke will be bringing much back with him next time.  :2xBird2: 

As a token reference to the original topic, I think I should point out that the maker of the swords may or may not be doing a perfect job. I was told by a Japanese shihan that the early releases had shorter tsuka than the ones that came out during the year of koto ryu. The year prior to that was Kukishinden ryu and the sword that Hatsumi had made by the same maker had a longer tsuka than normal. For some reason, when they made the ninja-to, it retained the longer tsuka.

So the whole idea of a Bohi is still up in the air when viewed in that light. Oh, and I think the best translation of that would be 'fuller' and not 'blood groove.' Despite a lot of stories, it had nothing to do with letting blood flow and everything to do with lightening the weight. I wince when I hear the term 'blood grove' used in reference to a knife of sword.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 3, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> So the whole idea of a Bohi is still up in the air when viewed in that light. Oh, and I think the best translation of that would be 'fuller' and not 'blood groove.' Despite a lot of stories, it had nothing to do with letting blood flow and everything to do with lightening the weight. I wince when I hear the term 'blood grove' used in reference to a knife of sword.


Exactly...and I take it that with a shorter sword such as a shinobigatana you'd probably want it to be solid all the way down so as to being able to use it like a garden tool or a machete should the need arise. Funny though, I have a video in which Hatsumi sensei states that with something like a ninjato thrusts are usually more used than slashes, and if you are going to cut with a shinobigatana you tend to be more particular about your targets.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 3, 2005)

Well, for those of you looking for real ninja-to (both iaito and shinken) here is a possible solution,

http://www.j-armory.com/FYKuro.html


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## Tamayoke (Jul 5, 2005)

technopunk said:
			
		

> Welcome to Martial Talk! It's a pleasure to have you here, I hope you share your knowlage and expertise with the board!
> 
> I'm sorry I missed your seminar here recently, my instructor was there, and said you were nothing short of Amazing!
> 
> So, again, welcome to MT, and happy posting!


Who was your instructor? Thanks for the kudos and the welcome.



			
				Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Some of our women here in SF still live in unrequited hope of discovering the "nothing short" part. . .


Really? Still? I didn't think I was still that fascinating to them. Speaking of women at your dojo, I heard it was your wife's birthday the other day. Please tell her happy birthday from me. 



			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Yeah, like he has never heard that joke before.
> 
> 
> I swear Kizaru, I get the feeling that someday you are going to be the death of me. :duel: Hope you have a good supply of French Vanilla coffee- 'cause I doubt Tamayoke will be bringing much back with him next time. :2xBird2:


I've never heard that before. . . . No more coffee for you Kizaru! 




			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> So the whole idea of a Bohi is still up in the air when viewed in that light. Oh, and I think the best translation of that would be 'fuller' and not 'blood groove.' Despite a lot of stories, it had nothing to do with letting blood flow and everything to do with lightening the weight. I wince when I hear the term 'blood grove' used in reference to a knife of sword.


I asked him why the bohi, and his response was that he wanted it made for a couple of reasons (which make sense tactically) - so it was a deliberate decision to have it made that way. There used to be one on the wall at hombu that he would break out and use, and once explained a tactical reason for the bohi on certain ninjato.


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## DWeidman (Jul 5, 2005)

Tamayoke said:
			
		

> ...There used to be one on the wall at hombu that he would break out and use, and once explained a tactical reason for the bohi on certain ninjato.


...

....

and that would be? Rain catching or???

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...


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## Dale Seago (Jul 5, 2005)

Tamayoke said:
			
		

> Really? Still? I didn't think I was still that fascinating to them.



Well, you're personable and in good shape, and they seem to feel that a hard man is good to find. I've tried to explain to them that you're Not Just A Sword Guy, but to little effect. . .



> Speaking of women at your dojo, I heard it was your wife's birthday the other day. Please tell her happy birthday from me.



Actually it's today -- I'll pass your greeting along.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 5, 2005)

Tamayoke said:
			
		

> Who was your instructor? Thanks for the kudos and the welcome.


Vic Siedleski, he came down to the seminar in St Louis you did recently.


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## Kizaru (Jul 5, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> _I swear Kizaru, I get the feeling that someday you are going to be the death of me. :duel: _



Hey, "Don Ken Obi", just stay the hell off the Death Star and everything should be fine!


_


			
				Don Roley said:
			
		


			Hope you have a good supply of French Vanilla coffee- 'cause I doubt Tamayoke will be bringing much back with him next time. :2xBird2:
		
Click to expand...

 _
Youch!!! Now you're hittn' _KYUSHO_!!!




			
				Tamayoke said:
			
		

> I've never heard that before. . . .


Hey Don Ken Obi --> :moon:



			
				Tamayoke said:
			
		

> No more coffee for you Kizaru!


Hmm....The Force is strong with this one....


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 6, 2005)

For the topic at hand, a ninja-to (iaito) from hombu is up on ebay...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=47347&item=7167607521&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

 Like I said earlier in the thread, there's tons of oppertunities for real ninja-to. It's been only a week or so and I've posted two examples where you can get some without making any personal modifications.


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## Don Roley (Jul 7, 2005)

It struck me that there may not be that many shinobigatana made. I would be interested in seeing at what price that sword ends up being sold at. I sell rare books and such to friends at the price I buy them at as favors. I am wondering if I should buy a few swords from Hatsumi to put aside for friends in the future worthy of owning one. On one hand, it sounds strange to hoarde them. On the other, if he gets orders now he can make more. But in the future there might just not be any more.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 7, 2005)

I heard that the man who made nihonto (shinden fudo, togakure, kukishinden) for Hatsumi sensei has passed away and these kinds of swords will not be made again. Of course, that doesn't mean Soke won't find another person to custom make these swords. But as of right now I assume they are fairly rare items.


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## rutherford (Jul 7, 2005)

I have to admit, I'm considering a bid.

Does anybody know offhand about how many were made and what they were selling for?


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 7, 2005)

The one that is up for bid right now I saw for $500 USD new, plus shipping. So the price on ebay at the moment is good.


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## rutherford (Jul 11, 2005)

Looks like it's gonna bring a bit more than that.  Moved out of my range.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 11, 2005)

Heh, yeah, the bids gone way over the original price tag. People must be desperate I guess, because I wouldn't pay that much by a long shot.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 11, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> Heh, yeah, the bids gone way over the original price tag. People must be desperate I guess, because I wouldn't pay that much by a long shot.


Especially for one that is not, and cannot be, sharpened...


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## Shinkengata (Jul 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Especially for one that is not, and cannot be, sharpened...


Amen...im not paying that much for a combatively useless sword.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 14, 2005)

Well, I've seen many iaito that cost over one thousand dollars. And iaito certainly have more training uses. But I guess being able to chop people up is important to some of you...

 Lol, I do agree though. I'd only pay a couple hundred for iaito, and then anything over the 500 mark would be shinken.


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## Cryozombie (Jul 14, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> But I guess being able to chop people up is important to some of you...


 Hey, If i wanted a sword that i COULDN'T chop someone up with, Id go to Bud K and spend 9.99.


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## MisterMike (Jul 14, 2005)

Training swords are maybe worth a couple of Ben Franklins ($100 for you non-Americans).

Why would you train with something worth more than 3, 4 or 5 hundred dollars, just to have it hit the ground and chip, scratch, bend, etc.

For that price, it should be real. And if you are going to use it, you'd better know what your doing.


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## arnisador (Jul 14, 2005)

mizu_teppo said:
			
		

> Well, I've seen many iaito that cost over one thousand dollars.


 Yowza!



> Lol, I do agree though. I'd only pay a couple hundred for iaito, and then anything over the 500 mark would be shinken.


 I agree. That's a lot of money for a training tool. For $1000, I'd want something functional and collectable--meaning, _sharp_.


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## Shinkengata (Jul 14, 2005)

For $1000 i'd want something that could stand up to an insane amount of abuse and cutting practice.

But then again, i don't think i'd pay $1000 for a sword anyway. $1000 buys you a brand new H&K USP Compact .45 with a few hundred to spare for a holster and Surefire weapon light.


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## Shogun (Jul 15, 2005)

> But then again, i don't think i'd pay $1000 for a sword anyway. $1000 buys you a brand new H&K USP Compact .45 with a few hundred to spare for a holster and Surefire weapon light.


Damn straight!
or you could buy roughly 83 MT support memberships. lol.


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## mizu_teppo (Jul 15, 2005)

Lol, the last few comments have been kind of funny. Shinken by japanese smiths are usually around $6000. Or if you go here, http://www.jidai.jp/Shinken.html , they're $11,000 USD. With most people though, the fascination of having a "sharp" blade is usually for all the wrong reasons. I often take a grain of salt when it comes to this subject.

 I wouldn't mind paying $1000 for an iaito if I studied a sword only school though. But since budo taijutsu is obviously not a sword only school...


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## Tamayoke (Jul 21, 2005)

For some reason my original post didn't make it. The main point of that post was having a bohi can be advantageous in certain grappling situations. 

Considering that an 'entry level' Japanese mogito goes for about 500usd, 1000usd for a specialized or good quality mogito is normal - and yes you can tell the difference between the 'cheap' and 'good' stuff.


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