# To the detractors of Pyung Ahn Sam Dan...



## Makalakumu

I am getting a little tired of my fellow TSDist dissing this hyung.  It is way cool.  Once you understand its bunkai, that is...  I wrote the following practicing the moves by my computer...

*Pyung Ahn Sam Dan*

It is much maligned and its applications aren't very good for point sparring, but hopefully this short breakdown will help increase some people's appreciation for this truly ingenious and unique form. 

First of all, in order to understand this for, you've got to be able to understand grappling (tuite).

Starting with the opening sequence. The "double block" with the inside outside blocks and strikes is probably the coolest move in the form. Some applications include arm bars and elbow breaks (obvious), there is a neck break directly after the second move in the sequence where the punch to the dantien bends your opponent over, and then there is the fact that if you have any training in wing chun, the sequence pulls directly off the wooden man simultaneous block strike routines.

The first move down the middle (Ssang Soo Ahneso Pakuro Mahkee) is a close in double strike to the neck and solar plexus. It is immediately followed up by an insertion technique (chun kwan soo - the infamous "spearhand" that is never really a spearhand). The next move is sweet. Turning your feet into kyocharip jaseh the form shows that you put your hand on the small of your own back...the form is really showing you where you place your hand on your opponent. Meanwhile, the upper hand which is next to your upper right shoulder in a fist is showing you where to grab your opponent again. When you complete the spin into the "hammerfist" you have just performed a throw called ogoshi.

There, I have just interpreted half this form for everyone who don't like it. See, if these insights can help spur some thought on the other half and then post what you find...

upnorthkyosa


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## karatekid1975

Wow! You sould make a video series on pyung ahn's with bunkai. That was cool. To be honest I didn't like that form, but now I do. I found that Taegeuk 7 (my fav form in TKD lately) has a lot of the same moves as pyung ahn sam dan. So to say I don't like pyung ahn sam dan now is stupid. Both forms are similar in some ways.


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## Yossarian75

I think this form gets dissed just because it looks funny(the second half anyway), Pyung ahn sam dan AKA the funky chicken. 

Ive been shown pretty much the same applications as you for the first half. The "chicken" bits in the second half can be wrist lock escapes and there is a headlock escape at the end. Im not very good at getting these applications to work, so dont practice them often. 

Ive noticed a lot of similarities between the TSD and TKD forms seems to be the same moves mixed up a bit.


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## Makalakumu

Yeah, it does look funny, that is for sure... :asian: 

I've heard the following description for the second half's bunkai...

Guy stands behind dude who just stole his bar stool with his hands on his hips.  He then uses an outside inside kick to remove him from his place and the backfist is actually guy grabbing his beer and chugging it.  The next outside inside kick is for the guy's buddy who has come to the first guys aid.  The backfist steals his beer and chugs it.  And so on...

I told you it was a sweet form.


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## oldnewbie

This sounds alot like my Shotokan Heian San Dan... does it end with an backwards elbow strike and a punch behind the head??


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## Makalakumu

oldnewbie said:
			
		

> This sounds alot like my Shotokan Heian San Dan... does it end with an backwards elbow strike and a punch behind the head??



Yep, that's the one.  I learned it first by that name when I took Shotokan long ago...


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## oldnewbie

Okay, I've seen the second part done with inside cresent kick, outside cresent kicks, and stomps...

 Which do you use?


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## Makalakumu

We use the outside crescent kick.  I prefer stomps, though.


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## oldnewbie

Not to highjack this tread.....but....

 I am looking at TSD to replace my Shotokan..

 My instructor died in November..and there just isn't anything near..except TSD.

 Could you give me some insite to the similarities, and differences?

 Thanks


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## Makalakumu

Actually, that would a great new thread...and it would draw the eyes of people that I know who post in this forum who cross train in Shotokan and Tang Soo Do.  I'll start it.  Check out this.


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## oldnewbie

Wow that was quick.. Should have thought to do that myself.  Thanks


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## TSDMDK16485

i agree with upnorthkyosa if these tsd practioners would only understand the applacations to not only pyung ahn -sam dan but all pyung ahn hyungs and the rest of the hyungs with-in the art they would learn the improtance of every hyung that dojunim put into the art....


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## karatekid1975

Yossarian75 said:
			
		

> Ive noticed a lot of similarities between the TSD and TKD forms seems to be the same moves mixed up a bit.



Yep, I agree. I started to notice that when I got to Taegeuk 3.


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## Llarion

Detractors? Strange. This and oh-dan are my favorites by far, they are so intense, so guttural. I'm working on Bassai now, and it's not nearly as much fun; it seems more, well, "delicate"...


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## Pale Rider

I myself like the the third form in the Pyong Ahn series.  The differences between the Shotokan and TSD are very eviden in this form especially in the first 4 moves.  TSD utilizes alot more hip motion in the double blocks then Shotokan and shows that there are indeed grappling moves and throws here.

All in my opinion of course


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## dancingalone

Old thread, but could someone explain to me why Korean stylists have the jump at the end?  In between the combination elbow and hook punch to the rear on left and then right sides?


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## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> Old thread, but could someone explain to me why Korean stylists have the jump at the end? In between the combination elbow and hook punch to the rear on left and then right sides?


 
Ah yes! I've wondered that and I can't see why, I suspect it's to make it different from the Wado and Shotokan versions which don't have the jump!


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Ah yes! I've wondered that and I can't see why, I suspect it's to make it different from the Wado and Shotokan versions which don't have the jump!



I think it looks ridiculous but if there's a good reason for it, I'm all ears.  <shrugs>  Those three hops at the end of Shotokan Chinte look pretty stupid too.


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## Tez3

dancingalone said:


> I think it looks ridiculous but if there's a good reason for it, I'm all ears. <shrugs> *Those three hops at the end of* *Shotokan Chinte look pretty stupid too.[/*quote]
> 
> Now that I have an explanation for courtesy of Iain Abernethy! No they have no use other than he reckons that some people think a kata should finish where it starts, this kata doesn't so if you do three hops it does! seriously, that's what he thinks its for and if he can't find a use for it I'm betting no one can! it's a serious explanation for something we all found silly especially when he demo'd the 'hops'! Why a kata should stop where it starts he has no reason for.


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## dancingalone

Tez3 said:


> Why a kata should stop where it starts he has no reason for.



Japanese fetish for organization.  Korean systems like it too (beginning and ending at the same spot).

Lots of Chinese or Okinawan forms don't repeat actions on the other size (or if they do, they sometimes do it in triples so are unbalance), so it can be common for their forms to end somewhere else than it started.


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## SahBumNimRush

I personally love Pyung Ahn Ee Dan of all the Pyung Ahn Hyungs.  That being said, I do truly enjoy Pyung Ahn Sam Dan as well.  It is true that it is incredibly difficult to enjoy practicing something that has no meaning to you, or atleast a meaning that doesn't make sense.  Boonhae/Bunkai are so readily accessible these days, even if your organization does not practice them you should be able to find some guidance on them.


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## Makalakumu

dancingalone said:


> Old thread, but could someone explain to me why Korean stylists have the jump at the end?  In between the combination elbow and hook punch to the rear on left and then right sides?



The move at the end of the kata can be a number of things.  One of them is a throw called uki otoshi - the floating body drop.  You can do this throw with the same motions you use in the kata, minus the jump.  However, if you do jump into this throw and you have good kazushi, you will throw your uke like a trebuchet.  I've experimented with this some, but I get scared for uke's safety when uke is airborne for more then six feet.  

It's not a practical technique because the timing and kazushi have to be spot on.  So, I tell my students to practice the kata with a jump, but know that the application doesn't require it.


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## Tez3

maunakumu said:


> The move at the end of the kata can be a number of things. One of them is a throw called uki otoshi - the floating body drop. You can do this throw with the same motions you use in the kata, minus the jump. However, if you do jump into this throw and you have good kazushi, you will throw your uke like a trebuchet. I've experimented with this some, but I get scared for uke's safety when uke is airborne for more then six feet.
> 
> It's not a practical technique because the timing and kazushi have to be spot on. So, I tell my students to practice the kata with a jump, but know that the application doesn't require it.


 

I knew about the throw but haven't seen it in relation to the jump, I shall have to have a look at that, perhaps pick a small child, a crash mat and experiment!


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## Makalakumu

Tez3 said:


> I knew about the throw but haven't seen it in relation to the jump, I shall have to have a look at that, perhaps pick a small child, a crash mat and experiment!



Once you get a good grip and bring your uke over his toes, the key is to whip around as fast as you can and attempt to pivot in the air.  You will actually end up behind uke, kneeling on the leg you whipped around.  Be careful to keep your posture up right and your hands up in the air, or you'll plant uke into the mat like an asteroid.

Find the biggest guy you can that can take falls and give it a try.  The bigger the better.  This technique works better on taller and heavier opponents.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

It is interesting to me when people look at a giver form and judge it by it's looks rather then taking the time to learn what it was intended to teach. 

The same holds true for Naihanchi Chodan (Shodan). The form doesn't look like much at first view, but there are reasons that Choki Motobu once said; if you can only learn "ONE" form in your lifetime, let it be Naihanchi Shodan.

Pyong Ahn Somdan has G R E A T bunkai. The interceptions and locks are all through the form. I have a new student that is a professional film maker. We are now disk series on Bunkai, Henka and Oyo.

As soon as it is complete (some time in 2011) I will make it available to everyone...


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## dancingalone

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> It is interesting to me when people look at a giver form and judge it by it's looks rather then taking the time to learn what it was intended to teach.



Frankly this is natural behavior.  We all look at things through the lens of our prior experiences.  I have learned and practiced versions of Pinan Sandan that do not have the jump in place and from that perspective, to be blunt, it's an ugly, unaesthetic alteration.

If some teach a useful martial application to it, I can accept that.  I did ask for an explanation after all.  Don't make didactic assumptions based on postings on a forum though.  That would be interesting as well considering the anonymous nature of the internet.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

dancingalone said:


> Frankly this is natural behavior.  We all look at things through the lens of our prior experiences.  I have learned and practiced versions of Pinan Sandan that do not have the jump in place and from that perspective, to be blunt, it's an ugly, unaesthetic alteration.
> 
> If some teach a useful martial application to it, I can accept that.  I did ask for an explanation after all.  Don't make didactic assumptions based on postings on a forum though.  That would be interesting as well considering the anonymous nature of the internet.




One of my instructors told us that we should jump at least 5 feet to the right at the end of the form and then execute the elbow. I asked why??? He said that we had to jump over a body and strike a guy that was going to grab us from behind...

Such explanations were made by thousands of instructors who never questioned those who taught them. I DO NOT teach the jump, as I was taught later by an instructor with a serious grasp of Bunkai that this technique was, as he had learned it, a throw. When he demonstrated the complete movement, from the punch to the rotation of the body to the "perceived" elbow and  punch it made perfect sense... I have not used the jump since.

We have also removed the jump from Pyong Ahn Ohdan as well for the same reason. It was not there in the original kata as taught in Okinawa because it was intended to be a throw and a choke, NOT an "X" block to a front kick that was being thrown to a location that the attacker thought you might be when you landed from the jump...


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## MBuzzy

One of our big obstacles here, however, is the Koreans themselves.  My Korean instructor gave me the same explanation.  Which just goes to show, just because someone was born in Korea, it does not automatically make them an expert.


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## Makalakumu

MBuzzy said:


> One of our big obstacles here, however, is the Koreans themselves.  My Korean instructor gave me the same explanation.  Which just goes to show, just because someone was born in Korea, it does not automatically make them an expert.



Exactly.  Which is why I think we need to get as many of us as possible to move forward with courage and confidence.  Our seniors may frown on us at first, but we need to have faith that they'll eventually come around.


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## Makalakumu

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> One of my instructors told us that we should jump at least 5 feet to the right at the end of the form and then execute the elbow. I asked why??? He said that we had to jump over a body and strike a guy that was going to grab us from behind...
> 
> Such explanations were made by thousands of instructors who never questioned those who taught them. I DO NOT teach the jump, as I was taught later by an instructor with a serious grasp of Bunkai that this technique was, as he had learned it, a throw. When he demonstrated the complete movement, from the punch to the rotation of the body to the "perceived" elbow and  punch it made perfect sense... I have not used the jump since.
> 
> We have also removed the jump from Pyong Ahn Ohdan as well for the same reason. It was not there in the original kata as taught in Okinawa because it was intended to be a throw and a choke, NOT an "X" block to a front kick that was being thrown to a location that the attacker thought you might be when you landed from the jump...



I will show both versions of pyung ahn o dan and let students decide.  The version without the jump is the throw and the choke that you indicated.  The version with the jump is a throw and uke stomp, followed by a quick arm bar.  Both of these are legitimate self defense techniques.

Anyway, that's why it's so important to understand the nuances of these hyungs.  

Regarding the jump in Pyung ahn sam dan, I hardly ever perform it anymore.  This throw doesn't require it unless you want to catapult uke into outer space.


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## 195

When I learned the form I loved it. I learned the spear hand as a strike to the solar plexus then as your right hand moves across your face (think of this as blocking a left side forward jab) and as it reaches for your  lower back your arm actually traps his in an arm bar. When you spin into the hammerfist you essentially break his arm and strike your next opponent. Just another outlook on the motion.


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