# Hard vs Soft Aikido...Oro??



## beau_safken (Feb 28, 2006)

Just read the article about soft/hard aikido.  Kinda confused...  I mean isnt there a way to get the hard training if you are in a soft school.  Just kinda wondering what I should be looking for in a Aikido school if I want something a little more on the hard side than the spiritual Soft side.

Beau


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2006)

I assume you mean that you want a rigorous workout?  I suggest you watch the classes and take note of how rigorously they train.  Whether or not they are more or less "spiritually" focused, a good school would still have a rigorous workout, or so it seems to me.  I suppose I should back off and let the Aikidokas among us comment further...


----------



## beau_safken (Feb 28, 2006)

Yea stop trying to be so damn helpful all the time Local guy


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 28, 2006)

yeah, that's my curse.  I know just enough to be accidentally dangerous to myself and all others around me...


----------



## MartialIntent (Feb 28, 2006)

beau_safken said:
			
		

> Just read the article about soft/hard aikido. Kinda confused... I mean isnt there a way to get the hard training if you are in a soft school. Just kinda wondering what I should be looking for in a Aikido school if I want something a little more on the hard side than the spiritual Soft side.
> 
> Beau


I'd maybe point your research in the direction of _Yoshinkan_ Aikido - a school of Aikido created back in the 50's by Gozo Shioda. Thinking of a "hard Style" of Aikido, Yoshinkan would be the first thing to spring to mind since it focuses more on the practical application of the technique and less of O' Sensei's spiritual aspects.

Of course, that's not to say it contains none of Ueshiba's spiritual teachings nor does it point to -as Flying Crane suggests- a harder workout!! 

Hope this helps...

Respects!


----------



## mrhnau (Feb 28, 2006)

I'm not an expert, but isn't NGA considered kind of "hard"?


----------



## MartialIntent (Feb 28, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> I'm not an expert, but isn't NGA considered kind of "hard"?


Yes indeed - though it depends on how far off the Aikido shores you want to push yer boat [as it were!!]

For me, if you decide to practise NGA, chances are you're probably not so inclined towards Aikido but more towards striking and karate ie. not how Aikido was conceived. Nothing wrong with NGA of course - a good hard, focussed and varied art but imHo, it's not Aikido...

That's just my $.02 of course.

Respects!


----------



## Aikikitty (Feb 28, 2006)

If you mean "good workout" ....I train in a Aikikai/Yoshinkan blended style (mostly Aikikai). We always finish class feeling either invigorated from the workout or exhausted. Just doing all those rolls, falls, getting up and down, up and down, moving all the time to stay out of the way, wears us out. Some of the guys in the class (usually higher rank with better control), often go at a faster pace and can be more rough. It depends on the dojo, teacher, and people maybe more than the style in many cases.

Robyn :asian:


----------



## beau_safken (Feb 28, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I'd maybe point your research in the direction of _Yoshinkan_ Aikido - a school of Aikido created back in the 50's by Gozo Shioda. Thinking of a "hard Style" of Aikido, Yoshinkan would be the first thing to spring to mind since it focuses more on the practical application of the technique and less of O' Sensei's spiritual aspects.



Thanks for the tip I will look into that for sure.

Thanks all for the direction.  I really needed it as Aikido is pretty hard to kinda figure out at times.  Least for me anyway.


----------



## bignick (Mar 1, 2006)

I'm guessing it's the same for everyone but O'Sensei...founders of arts tend to have a skewed perspective on the difficulty of what they are trying to convey.  Jigoro Kano, the founder of judo, assumed people would be able to reach 10th Dan in only 10 years.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 1, 2006)

Hard Aikido? must be the Tomiki style. They have sparring with full resistance, like Judo.


----------



## MartialIntent (Mar 1, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Hard Aikido? must be the Tomiki style. They have sparring with full resistance, like Judo.


Our style [Shodokan] *IS* Tomiki style - Kenji Tomiki, favored student of O' Sensei being the founding father of the style. Some folk opt to take his name as the name of the style instead of the name "Shodokan" which he gave to his art.

Shodokan / Tomiki Aikido differs from traditional Aikikai by virtue of it's competitive aspects - that being the main reason that Kenji Tomiki split from traditionally practised Aikido which eschews competition according to the teachings of Ueshiba.

However, that aside, Shodokan / Tomiki style is not necessarily harder in it's application. It does though have a greater emphasis perhaps on randori and free "sparring" as you say, than traditional styles.

Respects!


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 1, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Yes indeed - though it depends on how far off the Aikido shores you want to push yer boat [as it were!!]
> 
> For me, if you decide to practise NGA, chances are you're probably not so inclined towards Aikido but more towards striking and karate ie. not how Aikido was conceived. Nothing wrong with NGA of course - a good hard, focussed and varied art but imHo, it's not Aikido...
> 
> ...


Why is Nihon Goshin not "aikido" in your opinion?  The techniques are very similar to those of many of the Ueshiba styles, the concepts of blending, redirection and energy control are the same.  Any striking or kicking is coincidental to the atemi needed to help the technique along.  No, NGA isn't big on the spiritual side of aikido, more on the self defense at all costs side, I think.  Is that why you don't consider it aikido; the lack of meditation and spirituality in training?  Or is it because it doesn't trace it's line back to O'Sensei?  I hope my tone is not coming across is crass or obnoxious.  I'm genuinely interested in why NGA seems to be an outcast among the "hombu" crowd.

As for a good work out, yeah, NGA will give you that but so can most other styles of aikido.  Heck, picking yourself up from a few dozen throws in an hours time is a workout no matter what style nage is using to plant you on your butt.


----------



## MartialIntent (Mar 1, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> Why is Nihon Goshin not "aikido" in your opinion? The techniques are very similar to those of many of the Ueshiba styles, the concepts of blending, redirection and energy control are the same. Any striking or kicking is coincidental to the atemi needed to help the technique along.


OK, first off apologies for any offense caused by the subjectivity of my post. _Sincerely_, none is intended. You're right this is snobbery, there's no other word for it, but for me, it's because NGA is not part of the Ueshiba legacy - Shodokan / Tomiki, Yoshinkan etc. that have a traceable connection to the founding father and added to that, the lack - or wilful omission - of Ueshiba's philosophy of peace and harmony from NGA - which I feel is central to the workings of the entire art - those two things taken together imHo, make NGA a separate and distinct art from Aikido as taught by O'Sensei. 

I appreciate the roots of Ueshiba's art and NGA are the same [Daito Ryu] but would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Some say yes, some just get on with their art and don't care - it didn't hinder Master Morita one bit in his formulation of the art and it doesn't seem to affect your good self! In my opinion though [and please take it as nothing more], it's not Aikido - the way of peace and harmony.

I hope we can agree to disagree?

Respects!


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 2, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> OK, first off apologies for any offense caused by the subjectivity of my post. _Sincerely_, none is intended. You're right this is snobbery, there's no other word for it, but for me, it's because NGA is not part of the Ueshiba legacy - Shodokan / Tomiki, Yoshinkan etc. that have a traceable connection to the founding father and added to that, the lack - or wilful omission - of Ueshiba's philosophy of peace and harmony from NGA - which I feel is central to the workings of the entire art - those two things taken together imHo, make NGA a separate and distinct art from Aikido as taught by O'Sensei.
> 
> I appreciate the roots of Ueshiba's art and NGA are the same [Daito Ryu] but would a rose by any other name smell as sweet? Some say yes, some just get on with their art and don't care - it didn't hinder Master Morita one bit in his formulation of the art and it doesn't seem to affect your good self! In my opinion though [and please take it as nothing more], it's not Aikido - the way of peace and harmony.
> 
> ...


Absolutely no apologies needed.  I gave up being offended at not being part of the hombu group around the time I realized that I loved the NGA style.  Your response was exactly what I've thought about my art from time to time when I've had the opportunity to train with hombu folks before.  I've often wondered why we didn't call ourselves aiki-jujitsu instead of aikido but that hasn't hampered my desire to continue to train.

I honestly believe that it is the wilful omission of the philosophy more so than the pruning out of it that has occured in NGA.  While it is still stressed that the art should be a last resort and that the aikido-ka should attempt to do no more harm than needed that is about it as far as the more esoteric aspects of the Ueshiba styles and sub-styles.  I'm one of the guys that just don't bother to worry about whether or not NGA is considered "aikido" by anyone elses definition and get on with doing something that I love. 

I truly took no offense at your original post.  I've simply wanted an honest answer to the question that I put forth with out getting into a "You wouldn't understand because you're not a true martial artist" pissing contest.  I appreciate your honest answer and don't believe that we must agree to disagree at all.  We still have enough in common with the physical side of the art to have some great discussions about aikido.


----------



## MartialIntent (Mar 2, 2006)

theletch1 said:
			
		

> I'm one of the guys that just don't bother to worry about whether or not NGA is considered "aikido" by anyone elses definition and get on with doing something that I love.


I think that's it in a nutshell - we all practise our art because it's the one that fits us best and the one that gives us as individuals the most benefit. You're right, in that what it's called is almost a side-issue if 1). it works and 2). we enjoy doing it.

So now you've got me thinking a bit more about NGA, I'm off to do some more research  

Respects!


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 3, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> So now you've got me thinking a bit more about NGA, I'm off to do some more research
> 
> Respects!


I read somewhere once that "We destroy what we fear and fear what we do not understand."  Good luck on your research and feel free to PM me with any questions I can be of assistance on.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 4, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> Our style [Shodokan] *IS* Tomiki style - Kenji Tomiki, favored student of O' Sensei being the founding father of the style. Some folk opt to take his name as the name of the style instead of the name "Shodokan" which he gave to his art.


 
Thank you for the clarifications! I am sorry, but my sensei, although he is a big fans of Tomiki sensei, insist of calling your style "Tomiki-ryu". Now I understand that Tomiki sensei himself wish it to be called Shodokan. 

I like the Tomiki style very much. It is to me the ideal Budo, it retained traditions in the Koryu Goshin no Kata, and it maintained innovations in the Ju Nanahon Kata and its randori applications. It has the best aspects of Judo and Aiki Budo combined. If I wasn't an Aiki Jujutsu student already, I'll join a Tomiki, oops, Shodokan  Dojo immediately. Too bad there are none in indonesia. (There was one, led by Shimizu Toshio sensei, but it was in the 70s..    )

BTW, you are from UK, are you familiar with Madame Lee Ah Loi? I have seen her video and she's amazing!


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 4, 2006)

As for the Nihon Goshin Aikido style, I think it's more like Jujutsu/Aiki Jujutsu than honbu-style aikido. I have seen videos of Mr. Mac Ewen demonstrating it, and I must say, NGA is amongst the best expressions of self-defense oriented Aiki Budo style I've ever seen. Mr. Mac Ewen is very impressive.


----------



## MartialIntent (Mar 4, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> Thank you for the clarifications! I am sorry, but my sensei, although he is a big fans of Tomiki sensei, insist of calling your style "Tomiki-ryu". Now I understand that Tomiki sensei himself wish it to be called Shodokan.


Please don't be sorry, I wasn't rattling my sabre or anything!!  In all honesty the term Tomiki Aikido is probably more widely used than Shodokan. 



			
				jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> I like the Tomiki style very much. It is to me the ideal Budo, it retained traditions in the Koryu Goshin no Kata, and it maintained innovations in the Ju Nanahon Kata and its randori applications. It has the best aspects of Judo and Aiki Budo combined. If I wasn't an Aiki Jujutsu student already, I'll join a Tomiki, oops, Shodokan Dojo immediately. Too bad there are none in indonesia. (There was one, led by Shimizu Toshio sensei, but it was in the 70s.. )


You have a very wide knowledge of the art. My respects to you! Yes the 8 techniques from the koryu goshin no kata are regularly practised, though generally - for grading at least - only at dan grade and above. 

Although you're correct in that our techniques are borne out of Judo and Aiki combined [obviously through Tomiki Shihan's dual training with Kano and Ueshiba] we still find that those from a Judo background can not only _bring_ expertise to the dojo but can also _learn_ a great deal from the Tomiki/Shodokan techniques.



			
				jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> BTW, you are from UK, are you familiar with Madame Lee Ah Loi? I have seen her video and she's amazing!


I am certainly familiar with Dr Lee, Ah Loi. I have attended the Yawara Centre in London only once so can claim no great knowledge of this greatly respected lady. And just to support your earlier post, the good doctor has an excellent book that you're probably familiar with also "Tomiki Aikido, Randori and Koryu no Kata" [note, that's NOT Shodokan!!!] 

Respects!


----------



## MartialIntent (Mar 4, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> As for the Nihon Goshin Aikido style, I think it's more like Jujutsu/Aiki Jujutsu than honbu-style aikido. I have seen videos of Mr. Mac Ewen demonstrating it, and I must say, NGA is amongst the best expressions of self-defense oriented Aiki Budo style I've ever seen. Mr. Mac Ewen is very impressive.


JJ_I, were these videos online? Can you point me to them for my own research? Thanks!

I agree with you entirely, from what I know of NGA [and it's probably not too much], it's a fantastically powerful, honest and direct style.

Interested to know if Jeff has further insight.


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 4, 2006)

I certainly agree with both statements here that NGA is more along the lines of aiki jujitsu than hombu style aikido.  Our circles tend to be a little smaller, our atemi a little more targeted to weak spots and our concept of self defense is not one that requires that we even consider endangering ourselves to preserve the safety of our attacker.  I believe you can find copies of Sensei MacEwen's videos online at his website.  I'll find the link and post it here for you.  Also, I've seen them on E-bay from time to time.


----------



## theletch1 (Mar 4, 2006)

http://espytv.com/aikido.htm  Here's a link to the videos.  If you decide to get any of them let me know what differences you see between NGA and hombu styles.  I certainly hope that this thread has begun a friendship that will benefit both of us to expand our understanding of each others arts.


----------



## Mr.Rooster (Mar 5, 2006)

A good Aikido dojo will have both because the curriculum has both.
What you may be looking for though may be more of Aiki Jujutsu approach though.


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Mar 7, 2006)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> I am certainly familiar with Dr Lee, Ah Loi. I have attended the Yawara Centre in London only once so can claim no great knowledge of this greatly respected lady. And just to support your earlier post, the good doctor has an excellent book that you're probably familiar with also "Tomiki Aikido, Randori and Koryu no Kata" [note, that's NOT Shodokan!!!]
> 
> Respects!


 
Unfortunately I don't have that book, and the video of Dr. Lee that I watched belonged to my sensei. However, he gave me an excellent book about Tomiki, er, Shodokan Aikido  , its written by Mr. Nobuyoshi Higashi, it contains all Koryu Goshin no Kata. Many of the techniques are similar with the Hakko-ryu that my sensei teach here.


----------

