# what lineage are you from?



## spatulahunter (Jun 18, 2004)

I know that wing chun has some very heated lineage battles, and i know that alot of masters say they learned the only true wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, whatever. So what lineage are you and what do you like about yours that you think may be different or better than others.

I personally am under garner train who is a master under ip ching (son of ip man). I like this line because i know that Ip man was well revered and our grandmaster is his flesh and blood (he also teaches a good style as well). 

P.s. please try to be nice, i know some people get very offensive/defensive about lineage


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## leehoicheun (Jun 18, 2004)

first of all.... lineage battles are only for the ignorant. Any one who flashes a lineage card and thinks that is going to impress a true fighter is kidding themselves. Proof of actual lineage is good only in proving the line you came from but shows nothing of your fighting ability or over all Mo Duk (Martial Virtue). 

Also, just because Ip Ching is Ip Man's "flesh and blood" means absolutely nothing. Brandon Lee was Bruce Lee's flesh and blood but he was completely different then his father. 


 Click this link to see my Chinese character family tree. 
http://www.syracusewingchun.com/familytree.jpg

As I said before, anyone who entertains lineage battles is wasting prescious training time and also closing the doors of the mind to the entire Wing Chun world. Be open to ALL that is Wing Chun.


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## The Mark (Jun 18, 2004)

Ill take a wade into the swap here.



Lineage can be an unnecessarily touchy subject. I  personally think the important thing overall is that youre doing something that makes you happy in your life and you have value in doing it whether it is Wing Chun or basket weaving.





I think of Wing Chun lineages as subsets of styles. There are common principles and terms, but the definitions and executions vary. Wing Chun practioners are separated by a common style. 



Some of the differences in lineages that come from the same teacher could be due to the personalities of the student, the teacher, and the relationship between them, the students diligence in practice and ability to understand and to internalize their understanding. And of course the ability of the teacher to convey information to said particular student.



The above things apply to seeking a teacher or even a style of martial arts. It could be the style best suited for you but if you think the teacher is an *** you wont learn well from them. 



Also things such as how you define Wing Chun will color your interpretation of what youre seeing. As well as preconceived ideas of marital arts of  the teachers personality and group dynamics, convenience of location, schedule and price, or even the smell or color of the walls. Overall it must suit the prospective students personality and lifestyle.



For me, I wont mind if your Wing Chun is different from mine. We can still work together and learn. The only thing I look for is what I look for in all martial arts and that is consistency in what is said vs. theory and practice. 



More to the point of the question I study under Kenneth Chung (ChungMaanin) who learned from Leung Sheung who learned from Yip Man. Leung Sheung was the first Yip Man student in Hong Kong and lived with him for 6 years as did Tsu Shong Tin and Lok Yiu.



I study with Ken because his Wing Chun is not flashy; it is deceptively simple looking yet very powerful and profound. He is absolutely consistent between theory and application.  His Wing Chun is seamless that way. Everything is done a certain way for a reason, not just because. He always returns to the idea of Wing Chun being for the smaller weaker person. And he doesnt care about titles and costumes. He doesnt want to be called sifu let alone master.



Of course this is all IMHO and your mileage may vary


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## spatulahunter (Jun 18, 2004)

whoa leehoicheun, i didnt imply that mine was any better than yours i simply said what i like about it and laid out a little credibility (as did the mark by saying who his teacher is and telling a little about them).
I wanted this thread to be used so we could learn about other lines of wing chun  and share a little about teachers and where they came from.
I know why my master/grandmaster/lineage is credible. But there are many other  good teachers and schools out there that i dont know much about, i want to share knowledge not bicker about whats better.


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## leehoicheun (Jun 18, 2004)

if you took my post as an attack it was not my intention. But I have been doing this a long time and have seen simple questions like yours turn into a lineage war. You also mentioned "_very heated lineage battles, _ " in your original post.... so I addressed it. 

Also, I never mentioned my lineage (unless you can read chinese  )therefore I was not debating your lineage vs my own. Again, to make my point you said: "_So what lineage are you and what do you like about yours that you think may be different or better than others._ " I answered your question truthfully. When you directly ask us why we "think" something is better then others then those of us who don't think that way will express it.... as I did.

I also replied to your "flesh and blood" comment because I felt it to be irrelevent to the quality of their teaching or their "right" to say they teach the "real" Wing Chun. 

Like I said before, an open mind is important. My post was not to battle with you, it was only to tell you how some of us feel about that type of question.

have a great day :uhyeah:


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## spatulahunter (Jun 18, 2004)

spatulahunter said:
			
		

> whoa leehoicheun, i didnt imply that mine was any better than yours i simply said what i like about it and laid out a little credibility (as did the mark by saying who his teacher is and telling a little about them).
> I wanted this thread to be used so we could learn about other lines of wing chun  and share a little about teachers and where they came from.
> I know why my master/grandmaster/lineage is credible. But there are many other  good teachers and schools out there that i dont know much about, i want to share knowledge not bicker about whats better.


 i see where you are coming from and i understand your concern as well, i simply wanted to incite thoughtful conversation and was hoping i hadnt offended you


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## Katsu Jin Ken (Jun 28, 2004)

i train in a Moy Yat lineage.


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## spatulahunter (Jun 28, 2004)

Katsu Jin Ken said:
			
		

> i train in a Moy Yat lineage.



whats moy yat like? are there anythings about your lineage that are unique to it?


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## Manne (Jun 29, 2004)

The best way to defeat a Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tchun practioner is probably to ask him/her what lineage they´re from, and watch them argue themselves to death.  

/Manne

Student @ Halmstad Ving Tchun Skola
http://homepage.mac.com/wahboh/vingtchun/


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## Katsu Jin Ken (Jun 30, 2004)

i asked sifu today about lineage because i wasnt 100% sure.  We are from Mok Poi On lineage, sifu has training with William Chueng, Eddie Chong, and sifu Gradios.  So we are from________ lineage.


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## spatulahunter (Jun 30, 2004)

Manne said:
			
		

> The best way to defeat a Wing Chun/Wing Tsun/Ving Tchun practioner is probably to ask him/her what lineage they´re from, and watch them argue themselves to death.
> 
> /Manne
> 
> ...




i know its a touchy subject but thats actually what i was trying to stay away from. I really only know about mine and what i like about it so i was hoping to learn more about others


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## brothershaw (Jul 2, 2004)

What would be better than asking what lineage is if someone put together a chart listing the genreal differences between different lineages as far as what is taught. I know some branches have more forms, some vary how weight distrubution. To me anyway that is more interesting, from there people people could like at the variations and try them to see what might work better for them, or maybe their might be a form that they dont know but they might like. Basically an information exchange ( minus politics), maybe its already on the net, I havent looked yet.


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## spatulahunter (Jul 3, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> What would be better than asking what lineage is if someone put together a chart listing the genreal differences between different lineages as far as what is taught. .



Good idea, you should start a new thread with this. The wing chun section on this site needs a little more disscusion, all new threads are good.


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## ed-swckf (Aug 29, 2004)

I reside under the lineage of Ip chun.  I can give that in more detail.


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## Hung Fa Moose (Aug 29, 2004)

> I know that wing chun has some very heated lineage battles, and i know that alot of masters say they learned the only true wing chun, ving tsun, wing tsun, whatever. So what lineage are you and what do you like about yours that you think may be different or better than others.


Lineage: Well, I have studied the Siu Nim Tau of the Yip Man / Moy Yat System. It was required cross training at the time I was studying Tae Kwon Do. We used the Wing Chun for advanced hand drilling and such. I think that cross training was what got me interested in Wing Chun, just due to the depth and simplicity of the art. 

My current lineage is the Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen System, under Grandmaster Garret Gee and Master Benny Meng. So far as comparison/contrast, it has the three typical forms of most Wing Chun, Siu Nim Tau, Chum Kiu and Biu Ji. I think that what sets is apart (from most other Wing Chun) is its initial training methodologies and theories. The core of the system is a conscious awareness and use of Three-Dimensional space. Every technique is trained using a formula that the Shaolin Monks derived in the 1600s. The formula is designed to map out a specific area of space in which we operate at maximum efficiency while being true to 3-D Space. It is common to everyone, but also unique to everyone as well. I wont touch on it too much unless someone wants to know more. 

I have also experienced some of the Chi Sim Weng Chun System under Grandmaster Andreas Hoffman, and have found it to be very unique among the other Wing Chun I have seen and studied. It does not have the tight angles and small motions that most people are accustomed to in Wing Chun. The Weng Chun system has a very "Shaolin" look to it, meaning it is very fluid and graceful, a lot like a dance. There is no other way to describe it, you have to see it for yourself. It uses lots of Circles where other Wing Chun primarily uses Triangles. The most important thing that sets it apart from other Wing Chun are its principles and concepts. They are virtually identical to those of Hung Fa Yi, but have developed differently in their physical expression. The biggest one is "Lau", or Flow. Chi Sim players have great ability in changing and adapting to whatever shape they are given, finding its holes and using them to their advantage. Again, I will go into more detail if others are interested. 

As some others have touched on, it is most unfortunate that there are the "Lineage Wars" that abound in the Wing Chun world. However, from what I have seen, these individuals are also those who are attached to their techniques and cannot see beyond them, they are trapped so to speak. Chi Sim looks nothing like any other Wing Chun, and Hung Fa Yi looks like much of it, but both are unique due to their guiding concepts and principles. There have even been instances of people stating the Chi Sim is "not Wing Chun" due to just seeing it. Lineage is technique, and Wing Chun has so much more to offer than "My teacher was" As someone else put it earlier, a lineage means nothing on the street. What matters is if you can hold your own


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## spatulahunter (Aug 30, 2004)

ed-swckf said:
			
		

> I reside under the lineage of Ip chun.  I can give that in more detail.



i am currently reading a book that he wrote, i really like his ideas. He brings alot of philosophy into wing chun. He seems to be a very smart man


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## ed-swckf (Aug 30, 2004)

spatulahunter said:
			
		

> i am currently reading a book that he wrote, i really like his ideas. He brings alot of philosophy into wing chun. He seems to be a very smart man


what book is it? i've more than likely read it but i'm interested to know. I have heard a lot of what ip chun has said and the things that stuck with me the most are his answers to common questions. Like students asking him how much they should turn and he would reply 23 degree's - truth of the matter is i think its probably the only number he knew in english - what he was saying is you turn enough it doesn't matter how much you turn when its just enough, no more no less. He also had 2 now famous students (at least in the wing chun world) and when he was teaching them sui nim tao he displayed to one student the form and finished with 3 punches, to the other student he finnished with 5 punches. months later the 2 students would argue over who was doing it correctly and then as time passed the students would ask ip chun if it was 3 or 5 punches respectively and ip chun would answer yes to both of them. Eventually they asked ip chun at the same time and he said yes to both of them and they still didn't get it but eventually they realised it doesn't matter how many you do so long as you are doing, you are taught the form in one way and in respects to your sifu and to avoid a lot of ******** thats how you do it. I have seen many variations on forms but so long as you understand what you are doing and understand the variations that may arise from that then you are good to go. 

I noticed you are under the ip ching lineage, i've not seen a lot of him but i beleive master samual kwok is linked to him which is interesting if you are interested in lineage as thats where we would probably be connected.  sam used to train under ip chun and was the first to bring ip ching and ip chun to uk and usa, he returned to train under ip ching and is his senior representitive in uk and usa.  you probably know all this i just felt like typing i guess.


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