# Darting Leaves



## Nightingale (Sep 25, 2002)

does anyone have a breakdown for this technique?  I've been told that there is more to it than what's in long 4...?


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 25, 2002)

I can't speak for others but I'm not sure there is an actual breakdown on this technique. I was told that it was a filler technique that was taken out of long 4.  Personally our class has not played with it in self defense context. Looking at this tech. in the context of the form maybe you want to add a right outward claw after the finger dart. Get the attacker's head to turn place your right foot down execute a right thrusting sweep, maybe follow it up with the reverse roundhouse sweep. This is just a thought. Maybe another thought is to finish the technique with the extension to Prance of the Tiger it looks like the same basic position to me. 
Salute,
Jason Farnsworth


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## Nightingale (Sep 26, 2002)

Darting leaves is an old technique that was taken out of the system.  It remains in Long 4, but the version in Long 4 is probably incomplete.  Some people at the studio I train at are curious as to what the whole thing looks like.


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## jfarnsworth (Sep 26, 2002)

To the best of my knowledge this technique is not "set" in stone as part of the curriculum. I was told that the movement was in form 4 as well as reversing circles, and circling windmills. Someone gave these movements a technique sequence and there they were. The other two had made it in the curriculum Darting Leaves did not. Maybe I was told incorrectly, I don't really know. But all I can tell you is what I've learned in my short amount of time in kenpo. Hopefully this helps. Or maybe someone that has more info. will post on this subject.
Jason Farnsworth


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## donald (Oct 23, 2002)

Being that this is a "older" kenpo technique. Is there a chance that The Tracy's teach it in its entirety? I have it in L4, but I had to do some detecting to even find out what it was called!

Salute in Christ,


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## Blindside (Oct 23, 2002)

Hi all,

We have it listed as a tech, the Tracy name for it is "Preying Mantis."  I don't work off an official Tracy curriculum, we teach it pretty much as seen in the form.  Instead of the simultaneous eyepoke and groin/knee kick, we teach to parry, trap, kick, then use the handstrike.  We teach the different sequence because it allows marriage of gravity if you want to use more of an impact handweapon.  In the form it is done simultaneously.

Maybe Ricardo (or Dan Farmer) can answer this one better regarding the Tracy tech.

Lamont


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## GaryM (Jan 27, 2003)

Hi Guys, For what it's worth, my instructor told me when I asked long ago that it was the alternate beginning to protective fans. I.E. From poke kick combo check his arm down and step in with elbow ect.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 23, 2021)

I’m learning long 4 and it’s the fist time I Hurd of darting leaves I only know darting mace.


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## punisher73 (Jul 23, 2021)

This was one of the techniques that was taught by Prof. Chow that Ed Parker learned and kept in his system (at least for a bit).





As you can see the technique IS very short.  Left parry and then a kick to the groin and eye poke done at the same time.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 23, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> This was one of the techniques that was taught by Prof. Chow that Ed Parker learned and kept in his system (at least for a bit).
> 
> View attachment 27050
> As you can see the technique IS very short.  Left parry and then a kick to the groin and eye poke done at the same time.


Is there any particular logic that you know of to it being a downward parry rather than a sweeping one when done cross-body?


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## punisher73 (Jul 23, 2021)

Not a kenpo guy, but my understanding is that in this particular scenario you want your own energies working together.  If I do the cross body parry, I am tying myself up to go over the parry with my right spear, or I am adding another "beat" into the technique while the parry moves back offline.  With this execution, I can almost do all three moves at the same time without having to readjust any body position or weight distribution.


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## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2021)

Just wanted to say you guys have the greatest names for your techniques! 😀


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 23, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> Not a kenpo guy, but my understanding is that in this particular scenario you want your own energies working together.  If I do the cross body parry, I am tying myself up to go over the parry with my right spear, or I am adding another "beat" into the technique while the parry moves back offline.  With this execution, I can almost do all three moves at the same time without having to readjust any body position or weight distribution.


You could do the same though with reversing the hand that performs the spear and parry, although the spear would take a fraction longer since it's coming rearhand, you're no longer risking anything by parrying downward the cross-body punch. 

Just for clarity, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, since I know that you didn't come up with the technique (or even practice it). Just seems a strange decision to me.


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## punisher73 (Jul 23, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Just wanted to say you guys have the greatest names for your techniques! 😀


My favorite was always "Passing Wind" (yes, a real kenpo technique name).


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## punisher73 (Jul 23, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You could do the same though with reversing the hand that performs the spear and parry, although the spear would take a fraction longer since it's coming rearhand, you're no longer risking anything by parrying downward the cross-body punch.
> 
> Just for clarity, I'm not necessarily arguing with you, since I know that you didn't come up with the technique (or even practice it). Just seems a strange decision to me.


I gotcha now.  In the original technique, it is designed on that unskilled attack of throwing your body forward and throwing a right hand punch, so the right leg/right hand are forward, often times called a stepthrough punch.  It wasn't designed on a boxer's type right cross, or a right jab.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 23, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I gotcha now.  In the original technique, it is designed on that unskilled attack of throwing your body forward and throwing a right hand punch, so the right leg/right hand are forward, often times called a stepthrough punch.  It wasn't designed on a boxer's type right cross, or a right jab.


Gotcha. That was initially an issue with SKK when I was taught it, but they had changed to "realistic" strikes and I believe the techniques were adapted to that. Completely slipped my mind about the stepthrough punches.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 23, 2021)

This is a good example that a from is created from application. When you train form like this, your training can map into your fighting.

I wish all the MA forms are created like this.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 23, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I wish all the MA forms are created like this.


In the video on Darting Leaves you posted, it ends in the same kind of way as Charging Ram, in as much one hand guides the opponent forward and down, followed by a downward strike.  This works in Charging Ram as the attacker's head is already low and his momentum is already going forward.

The 2nd half of Darting Leaves is much different, however.  There is an upward elbow (opponent going up and back in reaction) followed by an open hand face strike (resulting in continuation of the up and back motion.)  But this is followed by cupping the neck, stepping back and bringing him _forward and down_ - the exact _opposite_ motion from where the opponent's momentum is going. Tremendous strength would be need to force the attacker's head down and to the ground. Even in the video, against a compliant kid, the head did not seem to go down smoothly.

The bio-mechanics of these two parts contradict each other.  This part of the technique will not work in actual application.  Before the neck/head grab, there needs to be another strike or two to bring his head down and forward, such as an attack to his groin or knee.  Only then would the pull to the back of the head and step back be sufficient to get to the end position for the finishing downward strike.

This just struck me as I watched the video.  Most of what I remember of Ed Parker's techniques (he personally taught me Short 4,  'Open' Hand Set, and Dance of Death) they all flowed well with the opponent's natural reactions and in line with bio-mechanics.  

I do not remember (unfortunately) much from that time long ago, but it may be possible something was either left out from the original design, or the end part shown for Darting Leaves is an poorly thought out extension added by some person unknown.


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## punisher73 (Jul 24, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> In the video on Darting Leaves you posted, it ends in the same kind of way as Charging Ram, in as much one hand guides the opponent forward and down, followed by a downward strike.  This works in Charging Ram as the attacker's head is already low and his momentum is already going forward.
> 
> The 2nd half of Darting Leaves is much different, however.  There is an upward elbow (opponent going up and back in reaction) followed by an open hand face strike (resulting in continuation of the up and back motion.)  But this is followed by cupping the neck, stepping back and bringing him _forward and down_ - the exact _opposite_ motion from where the opponent's momentum is going. Tremendous strength would be need to force the attacker's head down and to the ground. Even in the video, against a compliant kid, the head did not seem to go down smoothly.
> 
> ...


In that video, it looks like they added to the technique.  The "original" technique ended after the eye poke, groin kick.  It was very short as were most of Prof. Chow's techniques.


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## punisher73 (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a good example that a from is created from application. When you train form like this, your training can map into your fighting.
> 
> I wish all the MA forms are created like this.


There was a karate historian by the name of Charles Goodin, I believe, who wrote an article on form/kata applications and he said to look at the kenpo self-defense techniques and you could find a lot of the applications you were looking for in the katas.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 24, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> There was a karate historian by the name of Charles Goodin, I believe, who wrote an article on form/kata applications and he said to look at the kenpo self-defense techniques and you could find a lot of the applications you were looking for in the katas.


As I have gotten deeper into the root concepts of old Okinawan karate and better understood kata applications, I found much similarity between it and kenpo.  

We should not lose sight of the fact that Mitose was a practitioner of Okinawan style karate and a major contributor to Prof. Chow's (Parker's teacher) karate foundation.  So it should be no surprise that there are more than a couple of similarities between them:

  Simultaneous defense and offense
  Single thrust-dual purpose
  Low target kicking
  Close range fighting emphasis

Certainly the "flavor" and look of the style changed due to Chow's Chinese and Polynesian influences and further refinement by Parker.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is a good example that a from is created from application. When you train form like this, your training can map into your fighting.
> 
> I wish all the MA forms are created like this.


I would say both yes and no.  It depends on what the purpose of the forms are, within the methodology of the system, and how it is put together.  From my experience with Tracy lineage kenpo (an early Parker derivation), there is a tendency toward over-complication which often results in unrealistic assumptions.  I see that, in this particular video.  But if done with more direct and un-complicated applications, it could be a good approach.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> you could find a lot of the applications you were looking for in the katas.


The issue is you should not try to find applications in the form. The form should be the application.

I prefer the following order:

applications -> form


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> there is a tendency toward over-complication which often results in unrealistic assumptions.


If your application contains 3 parts:

1. Set up (such as an arm wrap).
2. Technique (such as a take down).
3. Follow through (such as a kick at your opponent's head when he is on the ground).

1 is the set up for 2. 3 is the follow through for 2. From an unexperienced eyes, 1, 3 may look over-complicated. When you create your form, will you include 1 and 3 into your form, or you just record 2 into your form?


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## Dirty Dog (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The issue is you should not try to find applications in the form. The form should be the application.
> 
> The correct order should be:
> 
> applications -> form


I think you take too much of an absolutist view. I view forms as a teaching tool. Yes, they teach application, but not ALL applications.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 24, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think you take too much of an absolutist view. I view forms as a teaching tool. Yes, they teach application, but not ALL applications.


I'm talking about the future.

If you try to create a new form, what steps will you follow to create your form?


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 24, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you try to create a new form, what steps will you follow to create your form?


There are more than enough forms out there, designed by masters wiser in MA than me, so I feel no desire to create another.  However...

One of the requirements for my black belt _was _to create our own kata using moves found in our style's 8 empty hand forms.   My theme was a churning ocean, so had many quick turns and constant motion, all revolving around the starting point.   It was fun to make, but it was a surprise requirement dropped at the end of the first night of testing.  The other guy and I were at the dojo till 2 am.  We had to have our forms memorized and mastered by the next afternoon, while still having to complete the second half of the test, so it was pretty intense.

Seems like a half century ago.................Oh, yeah.... it was.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If your application contains 3 parts:
> 
> 1. Set up (such as an arm wrap).
> 2. Technique (such as a take down).
> ...


And yet the material in that video still manages to over-complicate things.


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## punisher73 (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> As I have gotten deeper into the root concepts of old Okinawan karate and better understood kata applications, I found much similarity between it and kenpo.
> 
> We should not lose sight of the fact that Mitose was a practitioner of Okinawan style karate and a major contributor to Prof. Chow's (Parker's teacher) karate foundation.  So it should be no surprise that there are more than a couple of similarities between them:
> 
> ...


Good point.  Naichanchi kata was taught by Mitose and in Ed Parker's first book, Law of the Fist, one of the self-defense techniques he shows is the foot sweep from Naihanchi to counter a kick.

Also, Prof. Chow didn't really teach forms (there is video of him showing one, but that came later in his career when students wanted forms)  and only taught applications.  It was kind of the inverse of many people teaching kata without applications other than block/punch/kick.


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## Buka (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There are more than enough forms out there, designed by masters wiser in MA than me, so I feel no desire to create another.  However...
> 
> One of the requirements for my black belt _was _to create our own kata using moves found in our style's 8 empty hand forms.   My theme was a churning ocean, so had many quick turns and constant motion, all revolving around the starting point.   It was fun to make, but it was a surprise requirement dropped at the end of the first night of testing.  The other guy and I were at the dojo till 2 am.  We had to have our forms memorized and mastered by the next afternoon, while still having to complete the second half of the test, so it was pretty intense.
> 
> Seems like a half century ago.................Oh, yeah.... it was.


I had to do the same thing on a dan test, fourth maybe. It was kind of fun, but I had a week to do it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> And yet the material in that video still manages to over-complicate things.


One time someone demonstrated a Japanese sword form that he created. After each cut, there was 

- a blood cleaning move on his sword, and
- a evil smile on his face, and
- look around to see anybody was still alive.

That's too much IMO.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> There are more than enough forms out there, designed by masters wiser in MA than me, so I feel no desire to create another.  However...


It depends on the purpose of your form creation. If you just take techniques out of you forms, rearrange, and create a new form. It doesn't have much value.

I like to ask my guys to create a form with 5 different principles in it, and each principles need to have 4 different techniques. IMO, this is the only way that one can understand how to map principle into techniques.

For example,

Principle - use fake move to force opponent to block into the thin air. You then attack the opening you have just created.

Techniques:

- jab, jab, cross.
- jab, jab, hook.
- jab, jab, uppercut.
- jab, jab, overhand.

As far as I know, this kind of information doesn't exist in any MA forms yet.


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## isshinryuronin (Jul 25, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> As far as I know, this kind of information doesn't exist in any MA forms yet.


Yes, forms were designed primarily to teach and practice technique, and to store the knowledge to pass on as nothing was written down (at least in Okinawa).  Further extension of this knowledge was passed on orally, such as variations of application and other facets of the form's flexibility.  

Tactics such as feints were generally not put into the forms - tactics depend on the _individual _combatants. To "write" such a thing into a set form is not possible.  There are just too many tactics and factors to take into account and is not in the realm of a form's purpose.  The variations in application and tactics are subjects for the instructor, not the form, to pass on to the student.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 25, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Tactics such as feints were generally not put into the forms ...


Just because it has not been done before, it has value to do it.

IMO, to depend on teachers to pass down this kind of information orally is not the 21th century modern scientific approach.


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## punisher73 (Jul 28, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Just because it has not been done before, it has value to do it.
> 
> IMO, to depend on teachers to pass down this kind of information orally is not the 21th century modern scientific approach.



The forms are full of "uproar in the east, attack in the west" type strategies that fall into the category of feint.  Attacking low to get a response when the real attack is high etc.  Also, if you opponent doesn't "react" to the feint, they just get hit with the technique.  Other times, you would look at a target to draw their attention there and attack elsewhere.

Without instructor guidance, no matter HOW a form/kata is set up, you won't get beyond the simple block/punch/kick interpretation without input.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 30, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> In the video on Darting Leaves you posted, it ends in the same kind of way as Charging Ram, in as much one hand guides the opponent forward and down, followed by a downward strike.  This works in Charging Ram as the attacker's head is already low and his momentum is already going forward.
> 
> The 2nd half of Darting Leaves is much different, however.  There is an upward elbow (opponent going up and back in reaction) followed by an open hand face strike (resulting in continuation of the up and back motion.)  But this is followed by cupping the neck, stepping back and bringing him _forward and down_ - the exact _opposite_ motion from where the opponent's momentum is going. Tremendous strength would be need to force the attacker's head down and to the ground. Even in the video, against a compliant kid, the head did not seem to go down smoothly.
> 
> ...


I learned the extended version the kid in the vid shows from "the horse's mouth", so to speak. The biomechanics of the downward palm don't knock the head back, as much as function to compress the cervical spine, loading the vertical axis of the attacker in order to root him in place. 

The misleading piece in the kid's version is the type of elbow used. The elbow is a collapsing downward elbow which descends downward into the sternum to start folding the attacker forward, not back. The palm-heel/rake descends downward, adding to the directionality of the attacker. Both serve to fold him a bit, bringing his neck and head into reach for the latch. 

The cervical latch grabs scalenes, SCM, buries the thumb into nerve bundles, and braces the back of the C-spine behind the skull, making it easy to yank him towards us.

The rear knee is a "secondary weapon". Not meant to be as destructive as a proper knee, it's just there for him to run into. And once he has, I know proprioceptively where to find him with my hand axe (handsword thrown with heavy momentum, as if trying to bury an axe deeply into a chunk of wood).

I have a vid from a time I taught it to a group. I'll see if I can add it here or post a link.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 30, 2022)

FYI...


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