# Systema & Bujinkan Again



## KyleShort (Mar 2, 2004)

I know that this topic has been discussed many times but I'd like to try to provide a different perspective (my own of course=).

I trained in Bujinkan 2 hours a day, 5 days a week for about 2.5 years.  During that time I felt more alive, more aware of the world around me than I ever have before.  Example: while walking back to my campsite with a load of wood in hand, my arm gave way and the axe I was holding swung to the ground.  When I looked down I saw that the axe head had cleanly severed a rattlesnake in half.  I was astonished because consciously I had no idea that a rattlesnake was inches from my foot.  I truly loved that Bujinkan could give this to me. This same awareness, this livelyness, is what I see in the Systema videos that REALLY intrigues me.

But there were things about Bujinkan that did not sit well with me.  Most of the time it felt so natural, but then they threw in things that just seemed counter intuitive.  Example, stances such as ichimonji no kamae (sp?) I hated taking this stance...it did not feel natural at all and in practice I tended to abandon my stances and just let my body flow.  This consistently upset my instructors, but at the same time I was pretty darn good.  I could even flow at full speed with no-touch-throws, but only when I let my mind go and my body flow, which for me always meant abondoning the predifined structure of stances and techniques.  I see and read that Systema embraces the approach that was scorned upon during my Bujinkan experience (note that I have been to the Tai Kais and Buyo camps).

The last remaining issue that I had with Bujinkan is the same issue that I take with other arts, and the reason that I am scepticle of Systema.  I must tread lightly here =) ...  Common to the Bujinkan training that I recieved in the dojo, buyos and tai kais and common to the training that I have recieved in Aikido dojos and the like, is the concept of INTENT.  This tends to be of utmost importance and the instructors constantly stress attacking with intent.  Unfortunately, I have found that a large percentage of the time this intent can be translated as OVER COMITMENT.  In training it is easy to apply a Take Ori (sp?) or Kote Gaeshi (sp?) to incomming punches, even at full speed.  But the key is that you are fighting with other BBT or Aikido people.  Try to do the same against a boxer.  It won't work.  Even against my most senior instructors in BBT and Aikido (3rd, 4th, 6th dan) I could break their defenses by staying tight, and dropping some of my old Wing Chun chain punching and a few snap and oblique kicks to the shins & ankles.  Aka, no telegraphing & no overcomitment.

I fear the same with Systema.  In all of the videos that I have seen (I have dozens) the attacker clearly indicates his intentions, telegraphs his movements and puts, and leaves his attacks out there for the defender to do with as they please.  Why do you never or rarely see rapid, succesive punches or knife slashes in BBT, Aikido, Systema videos?  They almost always tend to be telegraphed single attacks, off the center line.  How does a Systema person deal with a knife weilding escrimador who slashes and jabs with speed and intensity.  One who never telegraphs, and always changes angles and hides their hand after each strike, thus never leaving it hanging in dead space to be manipulated? -- Please note that I am not suggesting that training slow is not effective.  I am actually a HUGE advocate of it, but I feel that training slow is like any other training method in that it will only teach you to deal with the scenarios that you train for.

This last issue is why I eventually left Bujinkan (that and a shattered knee).  As much as I loved the training, I could not shake the feeling that I was learning Ninjitsu so that I could effectively defend myself against others who were attacking with Ninjitsu.  This is what I fear with Systema.

No need for responses =) I fear the problems that I have cited, but I do not know it to be true because I have no personal experience with Systema.  I am doing everything that I can to seek personal instruction in this art so that I may know the answers that I seek.  Hopefully, I will be pleased with what I feel and I can practice Systema as a compliment to my primary Escrima training.


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## Furtry (Mar 2, 2004)

> How does a Systema person deal with a knife weilding escrimador who slashes and jabs with speed and intensity. One who never telegraphs, and always changes angles and hides their hand after each strike, thus never leaving it hanging in dead space to be manipulated?


 Work/move against the man not the weapon or style. For everyone it means something different, to me it is direct short/brutal work.





> This last issue is why I eventually left Bujinkan (that and a shattered knee). As much as I loved the training, I could not shake the feeling that I was learning Ninjitsu so that I could effectively defend myself against others who were attacking with Ninjitsu. This is what I fear with Systema.


 Systema is effective against non compliant attackers. And against people who do not have the Systema mind set. I personally love to train with newbies for that reason. I tell them work against me how ever they like, which has brought on MANY variations of attacks, while I work on blending with their timing and using intuition to take them out.
(I have video of non-compliant full speed full contact no equipment no rules fights. Will post it in the future.)


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## Jackal (Mar 2, 2004)

No worries. Systema is a study of movement, not moves.

Theres no such thing as over commitment. Either someone intends to hit or they dont. 

Same with telegraphing; theyre either moving or theyre not. If theyre moving, you can follow them. 

When youre _with_ an opponent as opposed to reacting to them, you just look at the movement for what it is.

_"In training it is easy to apply a Take Ori (sp?) or Kote Gaeshi (sp?) to incomming punches, even at full speed. But the key is that you are fighting with other BBT or Aikido people. Try to do the same against a boxer. It won't work."_

Of course. Trying to plan a response to a moment that doesnt call for it, is why learning specific techniques arent commonly part of our work. All the work is live, nothings ever rehearsed or performed the same way twice, so you learn to pay attention to whats actually happening.


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