# The BJJ attitude



## Shogun

(Before I begin, let me say this is just my opinion, no offense is meant by it)


I have talked to several guys who take BJJ from various schools in my area. Everyone of them thinks there is nothing that can touch BJJ. They have cocky attitudes and the words they use to describe MAs the havent heard of: Fake.
One of my aquaintances attends a local BJJ academy, and when I told him the martial arts I practice he had nothing nice to say. he said the Grappling we did in Budo Taijutsu is irrelevent, and said he'd never heard of styles such as Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. I try to explain about the martial arts, but get nothing but rolling eyes. He said, "do you guys run around in little black masks and hide from each other?" anyone else experience this kinda "better than thou" attitude with BJJ guys?


----------



## auxprix

You know, I do pick up on this sentiment sometimes, but I've never really experienced it while talking directly to someone. I see it in print and online, but the BJJers that I talk to have always been very friendly.

I think that part of this stems from the art being so 'new'. I was in a bookstore yesterday, and more than half of the martial arts literature was on BJJ! To many casual observers, it would seem like this is the martial art to end all martial arts. So these people see it again on UFC, and it confirms their perception (at least for them). So they join classes in droves and rave to the world about the perfect fighting system. What I'm trying to say (though it's coming out poorly) is that this attitude is part of the excitement that people have while riding the wave as early adopters of this 'new' system. It'll eventually die down as they progress in their practice and begin to see the limitations.

I also have problems with the marketing of the art, but I'll save that for another post.


----------



## Shogun

Hey, thanks. I have talked to some nice BJJ practitioners, but not many.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

The attitude comes from a put-up or shut-up competitive attitude.  If you box, kick-box, wrestle, or do Judo (competition arts), you will get respect.  If you do Kata and bow a lot, you won't.


----------



## DeLamar.J

Shogun said:
			
		

> (Before I begin, let me say this is just my opinion, no offense is meant by it)
> 
> 
> I have talked to several guys who take BJJ from various schools in my area. Everyone of them thinks there is nothing that can touch BJJ. They have cocky attitudes and the words they use to describe MAs the havent heard of: Fake.
> One of my aquaintances attends a local BJJ academy, and when I told him the martial arts I practice he had nothing nice to say. he said the Grappling we did in Budo Taijutsu is irrelevent, and said he'd never heard of styles such as Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. I try to explain about the martial arts, but get nothing but rolling eyes. He said, "do you guys run around in little black masks and hide from each other?" anyone else experience this kinda "better than thou" attitude with BJJ guys?


It probly because they are good in a REAL fight and they know it, wich gives them a big ego trip. Just because they are good doesnt give them a right to act that way though. I would go to a different school with less attitude and stay awy from that one.


----------



## Enson

i think alot of this attitude is from "newbies" in their style. mostly anyone that practices a style for a time will develope respect for all other styles. another thing is that they are good at what they do in ufc and the likes. when there is nothing to do but go to the ground on a nice clean pad and stay there all night well its not that difficult. they have evolved their art to be good at just that. what happens when you have multiple attackers? or on the concrete or asphalt? they don't seem to realize that there is a difference in nhb training and fights than there are in street fights. and besides who wants to mess up their gi rolling around in the dirt? hee hee!:ultracool 

imo... peace


----------



## AdrenalineJunky

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> The attitude comes from a put-up or shut-up competitive attitude. If you box, kick-box, wrestle, or do Judo (competition arts), you will get respect. If you do Kata and bow a lot, you won't.


I totally disagree. Cage fighting has really taken off in my area, and I get the same kind of attitude from them. They spend like 6 mos. training in MMA, win a couple poorly matched fights, and all of a sudden my training's worthless. . .frikkin' pitiful. I have a lot more respect for those arts/systems/dojos/gyms/ where respect is as much a part of the training as the training is. 

AJ


----------



## hedgehogey

***** ***** *****, moan moan moan, complain complain complain. 

BJJers have mad respect for wrestlers, thai boxers, judoka, boxers, etc. 

We don't respect people who wave their hands and feet in the air and then have the nerve to claim their art is superior for teh str33t.


----------



## AdrenalineJunky

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> ***** ***** *****, moan moan moan, complain complain complain.
> 
> BJJers have mad respect for wrestlers, thai boxers, judoka, boxers, etc.
> 
> We don't respect people who wave their hands and feet in the air and then have the nerve to claim their art is superior for teh str33t.


lol, point taken. BJJ craze does remind me of the TKD craze in the early 90s, though. [end bitching]

AJ


----------



## Enson

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> lol, point taken. BJJ craze does remind me of the TKD craze in the early 90s, though. [end bitching]
> 
> AJ


i must have missed that craze. then again i was quite young in the early 90's


----------



## AdrenalineJunky

Enson said:
			
		

> i must have missed that craze. then again i was quite young in the early 90's


lol, me too, like 13-14, but it was a big thing, at least in my area, nor-cali. Everybody's like, "what's muay thai. . .no dude, you should do tae kwon do. . .much better."

AJ


----------



## mliddy

> ***** ***** *****, moan moan moan, complain complain complain.
> 
> BJJers have mad respect for wrestlers, thai boxers, judoka, boxers, etc.
> 
> We don't respect people who wave their hands and feet in the air and then have the nerve to claim their art is superior for teh str33t.



I think this is one of the differences between a MA and a sport. I think the 'arrogance ' comes from the sport style arts. If there are MAs out there proclaiming that their waving hands techniques are superior for the street that is their problem. BJJers are competitors, like boxers, sprinters, basketballers. To be the best you need that ego and arrogance.  



> If you do Kata and bow a lot, you won't



OFK - that is a bit harsh. The above does not preclude a person from competition. All of the seidokan and kyokushinkai karateka I have met all do kata and bow a lot. Some of them are top fighters in the K1 and pride events.



> I have a lot more respect for those arts/systems/dojos/gyms/ where respect is as much a part of the training as the training is.



Great statement, this is one of the differences between a sport and an art. 

BJJ is a great art and unforunately, as with any flashy new best ever type of thing, it attracts more than it's fair share of people who cannot entertain that any other type of training has value.

edit - when I wrote the above post I was considering having a go at the people who were making generalisations about partiular arts. Then I read back my own post and need to have a go at myself for the generalisation I made about BJJ


----------



## Pittbull

Shogun I  also have noticed the attitude of which you speak.At the last tournament I competed was more of a submission wrestling than grappling and there were several bjj guys there and were spread through out all the divisions.Most had the "Bjj Attitude"
After competing and winning my division I talked to one of the guys that was from a bjj school.I of course asked him how long he had been practicing and he said 3 yrs. I now wonder about Bjj because this was my first comp since 97 and this was the beginers class. I went into the beginers division because I little about grappling out side of the wrestling I did in high school in the mid 90's.So my question is how good should you really be after training in a style for 3 yrs.?


----------



## Sarah

We should all respect each others arts, especially if we know nothing about it!!

And if you try to convince someone of a different style that your own is better you are probably preaching to the wrong crowd. Its like one footballer telling the other footballer that his team is better, do you think either one will stand down.

I agree with what has been said already, if there is an attitude it is probably the competitive/sport side of things.

Here is a question from an ignorant New Zealander, what is the different between BJJ and Jujitsu, I dont think we have any schools for BJJ here.


----------



## Shogun

Apart from the arrogance, ans regular competitive nature, I was more refering to the fact that the ones I talked to thought Yoshin Ryu, Kito Ryu, Daito ryu, and other Jujutsu styles were "fake". to say this is just.....well....they are the martial arts that MADE BJJ. did he think that BJJ was created without influence (jeez, what am I saying, japanese jujutsu made bjj) from these arts? he claimed to know history of bjj, but had never heard of these. another thing I will point out, is that bjj, and judo, while are great martial arts, are geared towards sport. traditional MA were developed and refined in the heat of battle. they were made for war. not sport.


----------



## hedgehogey

What he's probably reffering to as "fake" is that the majority of yoshin-ryu, daito-ryu, etc. schools don't train "alive", with real resistance (I was in daito-ryu for six months). Instead, usually practice is done against compliant partners.


----------



## tmanifold

It isn't the competition aspect. Judoka, wrestlers and kickboxers all seemed to get along just fine. Most of the kick boxers up until about 10 years ago were Karate or kung fu guys. They still loved their arts but liked fighting too.

The BJJ/MAA attitude thing mainly has to do with its newness. In the 50's if you knew judo you could kick anyones ***.In the 60's "I know Karate" was the mantra of the deadly killer. In the 70's every one was Bruce Lee. In the 80's it was ninjutsu. Now in the 90's and into the early 2000's it has been BJJ and MMA. Most of the biggest mouths are those that have like 2 years of grappling under their belt. It is the same with RBSD. Everyone has a Reality based program, even the TKD school down the way from me.

It is annoying but it will go away. It is even worse for people who have been grappling for years, from before the UFCs, to be told _how it is_ by these guys.


----------



## JDenz

I don't think it is a BJJ attitude more of a MA attitude.  Seems like everyone on both sides think what they do is better or equal to what the other does.  Since the only way to ever know for sure is to actully duke it out no one will ever know probably.  On a side note maybe every 5-6 months martial talk should set up a fighting circuit and let it's users battle it out in a caged tennis court or something.


----------



## Trent

JDenz said:
			
		

> I don't think it is a BJJ attitude more of a MA attitude.  Seems like everyone on both sides think what they do is better or equal to what the other does.  Since the only way to ever know for sure is to actully duke it out no one will ever know probably.  On a side note maybe every 5-6 months martial talk should set up a fighting circuit and let it's users battle it out in a caged tennis court or something.



Heh, I like the idea of a caged tennis court.  How about we leave the rackets in there, too? 

Of course, everyone thinks their style is of superior quality, perhaps not "the best," but one of the best, or they wouldn't be diligently practicing.  We used to call "the attitude" the green belt phenomenon (i.e., around two to three years of training) many years ago , but as they matured as a martial artist and person the attitude drifted away.


----------



## JDenz

No we can't do that becvause then the people that practice Tennis Do will have an advantage.  Of course those who practice "Nike"in dusua Kia (the running defense) will already be complaining about the caged in atmosphere.


----------



## hedgehogey

JDenz said:
			
		

> I don't think it is a BJJ attitude more of a MA attitude. Seems like everyone on both sides think what they do is better or equal to what the other does. Since the only way to ever know for sure is to actully duke it out no one will ever know probably. On a side note maybe every 5-6 months martial talk should set up a fighting circuit and let it's users battle it out in a caged tennis court or something.


Yes, yes of course. In some form of cage. We could have a number of different fighters from different styles in few or no rules battles. The results would be interesting. But how many sides would it have? We could call it...the hexagon? No, that's not it. The pentagon? The sexagon? It's right on the tip of my tongue. 

(for those too dense to understand sarcasm, www.ufc.tv)


----------



## mcjon77

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Yes, yes of course. In some form of cage. We could have a number of different fighters from different styles in few or no rules battles. The results would be interesting. But how many sides would it have? We could call it...the hexagon? No, that's not it. The pentagon? The sexagon? It's right on the tip of my tongue.
> 
> (for those too dense to understand sarcasm, www.ufc.tv)



Good idea, but we have to let the filipino martial arts practitioners bring their knives, sticks and swords  :jedi1: .  Lets see, BJJ guard tactics vs. Sayoc Kali 3 of 9 template tactics  :whip: .  I would pay to see that fight.  I'm too much of a wuss to  participate myself, mind you :uhyeah: , but I would still like to watch.

Jon


----------



## hedgehogey

That'd be good too! We could have a seperate division where the truly hardcore could fight with sticks and other weapons. That's hardcore animal stuff, so they could name themselves after an animal. Let's see...the cat sisters? No, that doesn't quite fit...The Gorilla cousins? The wolf uncles? It's just on the tip of my tongue...

(once again, for the dense, http://www.dogbrothers.com/ , all guys who train in "BJJ guard tactics")


----------



## Shogun

Still though, I find it humorous that people will coin that the Koryu Jujutsu styles are not effective or were never effective, since they were used as methods of war. But I can see where they are coming from. I just wish THEY could see the other side.


----------



## mcjon77

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> That'd be good too! We could have a seperate division where the truly hardcore could fight with sticks and other weapons. That's hardcore animal stuff, so they could name themselves after an animal. Let's see...the cat sisters? No, that doesn't quite fit...The Gorilla cousins? The wolf uncles? It's just on the tip of my tongue...
> 
> (once again, for the dense, http://www.dogbrothers.com/ , all guys who train in "BJJ guard tactics")



Haven't heard of anyone doing "Real contact Knife Fighting" Though :jedi1: .
 :boing2: 

Besides, having weapons fighters only fight weapons fighters is a little too close to fairplay in my book.  My favorite qoute from a martial arts and tactics instructor is "Cheat first, Cheat last, and Cheat in the middle, too".  Or the other slogan, " If you're in a fair fight, you didn't prepare well enough".

Jon


----------



## mcjon77

In all seriousness though,

Is the BJJ attitude really different from the attitude that some JKDers had right before the BJJ craze hit.  I remember how some JKDers seemed compelled to tell every TMA about how they were bound by forms and the limits of their art.  It is the same stuff, just different practitioners.

Jon


----------



## hedgehogey

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Haven't heard of anyone doing "Real contact Knife Fighting" Though :jedi1: .
> :boing2:
> 
> Besides, having weapons fighters only fight weapons fighters is a little too close to fairplay in my book. My favorite qoute from a martial arts and tactics instructor is "Cheat first, Cheat last, and Cheat in the middle, too". Or the other slogan, " If you're in a fair fight, you didn't prepare well enough".
> 
> Jon


The dog brothers do all that.


----------



## mcjon77

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> Haven't heard of anyone doing "Real contact Knife Fighting" Though :jedi1: .
> :boing2:
> 
> Besides, having weapons fighters only fight weapons fighters is a little too close to fairplay in my book. My favorite qoute from a martial arts and tactics instructor is "Cheat first, Cheat last, and Cheat in the middle, too". Or the other slogan, " If you're in a fair fight, you didn't prepare well enough".
> 
> Jon





			
				hedgehogey said:
			
		

> The dog brothers do all that.


The dog brothers do real contact knife fighting?  You're serious?  Who told you that?  Now if you are telling me that the dog brothers go full contact with real knives (not flow drills) I've got to call BS on that one.  Getting hit in the ribs with a real stick is one thing, taking a slash to the ribs with a real knife is another.  Not saying that what the dog brothers do isn't intense, I'm just doubting that they did "real contact knife fighting" the way they do "real contact stick fighting". I mentioned real contact knife fighting in my previous post, because only an idiot would do that with real knives.  I've heard of people doing flow drills with real knives, but real contact knife fighting? Come on now.

Jon

Jon


----------



## grappling_mandala

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> The dog brothers do real contact knife fighting?  You're serious?  Who told you that?  Now if you are telling me that the dog brothers go full contact with real knives (not flow drills) I've got to call BS on that one.  Getting hit in the ribs with a real stick is one thing, taking a slash to the ribs with a real knife is another.  Not saying that what the dog brothers do isn't intense, I'm just doubting that they did "real contact knife fighting" the way they do "real contact stick fighting". I mentioned real contact knife fighting in my previous post, because only an idiot would do that with real knives.  I've heard of people doing flow drills with real knives, but real contact knife fighting? Come on now.
> 
> Jon
> 
> Jon



The dog brothers simulate knives at their gathering of the pack with some rather hard, knife replicas that HURT if you get hit. Watch any of their gathering of the pack tournaments and you will see that functional alive form wins out over 'fancy' a lot of the time. Those videos are AWESOME they should be mandatory viewing when anyone thinks their ready to start 'weapon training'... they have wicked grappling techniques with sticks too. 

I think the bjj attitude is mainly because of their 'alive' training. ALL THE TIME. Other arts say, well this works, and this works, and the bjj guys are actually willing to say, do it on me and see if it works. That un-nerves a lot of people, they arn't willing to actually 'DO' martial art in a way that seems UNCONTROLED. Most bjj guys will get an attitude with someone who says they KNOW something, but it's to dangerous to perform or someone will die. BJJ guys want to FEEL what you know. 

Then again, i know the 2 year blue belts mentioned who are willing to chip teeth to get people to tap and are complete a-holes... there are those too... i just don't train with them. 

Dave


----------



## ppko

grappling_mandala said:
			
		

> I think the bjj attitude is mainly because of their 'alive' training. ALL THE TIME. Other arts say, well this works, and this works, and the bjj guys are actually willing to say, do it on me and see if it works. That un-nerves a lot of people, they arn't willing to actually 'DO' martial art in a way that seems UNCONTROLED. Most bjj guys will get an attitude with someone who says they KNOW something, but it's to dangerous to perform or someone will die. BJJ guys want to FEEL what you know.
> Dave


I have a friend in Ecuador that trains in BJJ and just joined DKI he also has the let me feel it attitude, but I believe that it is the demeanor that some come at you, rather than them asking to feel the technique.  As JP is very respectful when he asks.

Best Regards
PPKO:EG: :ticked: :waah:


----------



## Trent

The "knives" used in Dog Brother competitions are aluminum trainers.  Some will use wooden replicas if both agree.  Much of what they do is silat based, although they also use a great deal of Pekiti-Tirsia, Lacoste/Inosanto Kali and yes, even BJJ when stickgrappling.  

Nice bunch of guys.


----------



## tmanifold

> Other arts say, well this works, and this works, and the bjj guys are actually willing to say, do it on me and see if it works.



Or if you do it with out telling them, they complain that you cheated. They wanted to know its coming. I don't doubt that a really good wreslter or Bjjer can defend an eye poke or bite when they are watching for it. 
It isn't alive training. Judo trains alive and the arrogance that is common in BJJ is not common in Judo. OR at least as common. Like I said, it is the newness factor. Not just the relative newness of BJJ and Mixed Martial arts but the relative newness of the practiitioners. In my experience, the loudest are the people who have been doing this kind of stuff for less than 2 years. Many of the RBSD or Combatives crowd (and many of the TMA crowd) started with judo or wrestling. Also, the typical BJJ or submission fighter is relatively young when compared to the typical combatives, RBSD or TMA practitioner. The brashness is more likely to come from a young guy than an older person.



> Then again, i know the 2 year blue belts mentioned who are willing to chip teeth to get people to tap


I know RBSD people that will do the same thing to get through a drill. That can be a good thing for them. It can be a bummer to their partner who is trying to learn though.



> "Cheat first, Cheat last, and Cheat in the middle, too". Or the other slogan, " If you're in a fair fight, you didn't prepare well enough"


Two slogans to live by IMO.


----------



## Shogun

All good stuff, tmanifold. In a fight there is several attitudes. if you remain passive (the goal of most martial arts) your opponent thinks maybe you are weak, and will not expect you to be able to defend yourself. once a fight is initiated, then you see your BJJ and boxing stuff. however, BJJ practitioners like to say that 90% of all fights go to the ground. A recent survey of "street fights" done in Black belt Magazine showed that only 36% of fights go to the ground and that 21% of that were with drunks. it also showed that most street fights typically ended in under 10 seconds. Now how many MMA fights do you see end in 7 seconds or so? (2, I can think of). Another thing, the survey showed that most fights involve some kind of expedient weapon. glass, bat, knife, etc.





> I know RBSD people that will do the same thing to get through a drill. That can be a good thing for them. It can be a bummer to their partner who is trying to learn though


A girl in my Aikijutsu class had her collarbone broken in class and came back less than 3 months later so she could finish her technique.



> Other arts say, well this works, and this works, and the bjj guys are actually willing to say, do it on me and see if it works.


Like I said before, They already know it works or has worked in the past. these techniques were'nt created overnight. most older martial arts were created  when hand to hand combat was necessary.



> Most bjj guys will get an attitude with someone who says they KNOW something, but it's to dangerous to perform or someone will die. BJJ guys want to FEEL what you know.


So they want to die? jk.

Cheers,
Kyle


----------



## JDenz

How many people have you poked in the eye?


----------



## Shogun

Who me?

Just 2. myself, and my little brother.


----------



## Fight with attitude

I've been to a BJJ school once. Some of the people were very nice, others wouldn't even look at me or say hi because I was new.

That dojo is night and day different to the dojo I train at now which has a lot of grappling, everyone helps out everyone.


----------



## Flatlander

Fwa, welcome to the board!  Have a look around, and enjoy your stay
	

	
	
		
		

		
			






Nice to see another Canadian here.

:CTF:


----------



## Andrew Green

flatlander said:
			
		

> Nice to see another Canadian here.


We come to take over 

Where abouts are you on the praries anyways?


----------



## Baoquan

JDenz said:
			
		

> How many people have you poked in the eye?



Just one. He was questioning my ability to remove him from the bar I was working in. I was about 70kgs (155lbs) at the time, and he was around 100 (220lbs). He grabbed me. I put my right thumb in his left eye.  He let go of me. He left the bar. 

It works ok.


----------



## Shogun

Despite the attitude I get from BJJer's (not all, like I said) I am going to try out a class on tuesday.

Here is the link:

Tap or snap


----------



## Pittbull

Shogun I'm in the same boat you're in of not like the bjj attitude toward the other grappling arts but may be checking out some bjj schools were I live because that's about the only grappling style around were I live


----------



## Shogun

Funny thing. BJJ teachers are NOT dime a dozen. there isnt much out there. but they always seem to be in the right place. I'll tell ya what I think of the class.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

tmanifold said:
			
		

> *It isn't alive training.*


Hmmm. I trained heavily in BJJ in So Cal under some of the original guys in the US, before the whole thing blew up all over the map...and pretty much all we did was "alive" training.  Has it dumbed down that much in that last several years?

Dave


----------



## tmanifold

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Hmmm. I trained heavily in BJJ in So Cal under some of the original guys in the US, before the whole thing blew up all over the map...and pretty much all we did was "alive" training.  Has it dumbed down that much in that last several years?
> 
> Dave


I meant it isn't the alive training the is the reason for the "attitude". Alive training has been around for decades (centuries really) and like I said Judo players tend to be very humble as a group.

Tony


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

tmanifold said:
			
		

> I meant it isn't the alive training the is the reason for the "attitude". Alive training has been around for decades (centuries really) and like I said *Judo players tend to be very humble as a group*.
> 
> Tony


This is true. The most hospitable environs I've found in my travels have been among fellow judoka, transcending langauage and culture.


----------



## Shogun

I went to the BJJ class:

First, we started the class with stand-up. The instructor is also a 4th Dan in TKD. we hit bags and each other for 1 hour, then pulled the mats out. we started BJJ, doing some technique and then sparring. all the guys theredominated as far as positioning goes by most of the blue belts, but they couldnt quite tap me. I overpowered them with my style of Jujutsu (japanese) and found myself simply standing up, and tossing them around. One guy got me good with a choke from the north-south, causing me to tap. another guy was like 6'2", 240 lbs, and I wiped the floor with him. the instructor, and the assistant instructors were very technical, but they werent used to my style. I stayed after class with one of my friends, who is a Blue belt/3 stripes. we sparred a little bit, and tied each other with 3 submissions each. mine were very unorthodox. I pinned his arms in a crucifix (wrestling) and used my foot to push his thighs in different directions, until he tapped.

I might go back, but I'd have to make time, and I find my style more effective for actual combat. 

KE


----------



## Insedia_Cantharis

Enson said:
			
		

> i think alot of this attitude is from "newbies" in their style. mostly anyone that practices a style for a time will develope respect for all other styles.


I agree with this to every point. Everyone who actually knows about their style will see the similarities and understand certain aspects of other styles from what their own lacks.

no style has everything, but they all have something. It all depends on what you want. any knowlegable Martial artist would know this.


----------



## hedgehogey

What academy was this, shogun?


----------



## Baoquan

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> What academy was this, shogun?



link is posted upthread.


----------



## Shogun

I re-read my post and it kinda sounded like all the guys sucked. this was not the case. there level of expertise in their art was high. higher than most BJJ academies in the state. The Instructor is a student of Marcelo Alonso, Mamazinho, Rodrigo lopez, and Rickson Gracie. all top level instructors. I went to the academy to try my own style against BJJ, to see where I was in the grappling game. My style is so different than theirs, that when they were grappling me, it probably seemed to them that I was highly inexperienced, but then I'd turn something around on them.


----------



## hedgehogey

What forms of submission did you use besides a crucifix? Did you really "get up" from under dominant positions?


----------



## Shogun

I spun out of a heel hook and did a figure 4 toehold. He spun, but I spun with him, and he tapped. he has a bad ankle though, so...... I also front choked someone, almost got am armbar, and a choke from Taijutsu (itami jime?) I did get up from a dominant position. One guy there was about 125-130 lbs. I turned from his mount and gave him my back, he tried to choke me but I guarded my neck and stood up, then tried to shake him off. it was like an ant nest. lol.


----------



## hedgehogey

Well Kyle, you appear to be lying through your teeth. First of all, no BJJ school does heel hooks on begginers. That would be just plain irresponsible. 

Secondly you don't count "almost" submissions. You only count the ones that get a tap.

I wrote to tap or snap, and recieved this response: 



> Thanks for your question. Kyle did come to class last Tuesday to try it. My impression of Kyle is that he is a bragger. He sent me an e-mail letting me know that he was planning to attend my class. His e-mail was basically a list of all the styles of martial arts that he has done (most of them I have never heard of).
> 
> 
> How did he do in class while sparring? I didn&#8217;t see him spar anyone but myself. I got a good feel for how good Kyle is (we sparred for 3 minutes). I was going about 10% while sparring and never felt threaten and was always in a superior position. Had I gone up to 20% I could have taped him out at will. I know how good my students are and I find it very hard to believe he could beat any of them. If he did it was only because the other student was going slow and taking it easy on him.
> 
> 
> RE: &#8220;another guy was like 6'2", 240 lbs, and I wiped the floor with him&#8221;
> 
> - I think that was just a wild dream
> 
> 
> 
> -Michael
> 
> www.TapOrSnap.Com


----------



## JDenz

ouch


----------



## tmanifold

> First of all, no BJJ school does heel hooks on begginers.



And you have been to them all I take it? Thats a lot of travel in 6 months. Lay off the grand proclamations, they don't come off well. I know that I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.


----------



## Baoquan

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Well Kyle, you appear to be lying through your teeth. First of all, no BJJ school does heel hooks on begginers. That would be just plain irresponsible.
> 
> Secondly you don't count "almost" submissions. You only count the ones that get a tap.
> 
> I wrote to tap or snap, and recieved this response:




While i was gonna post a reflexive "Who made you the sherriff of FantasyTown?", i can't do it...because you're probably right. I had a brief look at the "LWO" link in Shogun's sig....and the contents are amusing, to say the least.  

Check out the active roster at the LWO website, specifically, "The Shogun".


----------



## Shogun

as for heel hooks, I stayed after class with a guy named Derek (check the site for info) The big guy? Im small(5'9", 160 lbs) so I am not sure how to judge big guys. he is on the site too. He pretty much let me get the dominant position. He is big though....


> 10% while sparring and never felt threaten and was always in a superior position. Had I gone up to 20% I could have taped him out at will.


WE WERE ALL GOING SLOW! thats the idea! Im sure he could have tapped me. (hes the instructor)



> His e-mail was basically a list of all the styles of martial arts that he has done (most of them I have never heard of).


I wanted him to know I wasnt TOO wet behind the ears. and this is exactly the attitude I am talking about. Who the Hell hasnt heard of the Bujinkan? or Cabales Serrada escrima? or Aikido? seriously.....

And bragger? I post all the time how much better everyone else is. as for him? I talked to him for like, 30 seconds.


----------



## Shogun

> I had a brief look at the "LWO" link in Shogun's sig....and the contents are amusing, to say the least.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Check out the active roster at the LWO website, specifically, "The Shogun".


Its backyard wrestling. I'm glad you enjoyed it. Its like pro wrestling (all fake and stuff) but....not....pro.....



> And you have been to them all I take it? Thats a lot of travel in 6 months. Lay off the grand proclamations, they don't come off well. I know that I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.


Good point, tmanifold.


----------



## hedgehogey

Shogun said:
			
		

> And bragger? I post all the time how much better everyone else is. as for him? I talked to him for like, 30 seconds.


Oh yeah? 



> I overpowered them with my style of Jujutsu (japanese) and found myself simply standing up, and tossing them around. One guy got me good with a choke from the north-south, causing me to tap. another guy was like 6'2", 240 lbs, and I wiped the floor with him. the instructor, and the assistant instructors were very technical, but they werent used to my style. I stayed after class with one of my friends, who is a Blue belt/3 stripes. we sparred a little bit, and tied each other with 3 submissions each. mine were very unorthodox. I pinned his arms in a crucifix (wrestling) and used my foot to push his thighs in different directions, until he tapped.


Let me repeat: 





> another guy was like 6'2", 240 lbs,* and I wiped the floor with him. *


You are claiming to have "overpowered" the students with your style of jujutsu. You are claiming to have "wiped the floor" with another student, much larger than you. And you claim you tied with a blue belt. 

I've emailed two of the guys from tap or snap who disagree. I think you should apologize to them.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Mod. Warning 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

tshadowchaser
-MT Moderator-
aka Sheldon


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka

Cudos to Hedgehoney for calling "Bull Sheet".  BJJ schools don't do heel hooks on newbies.  Higher belts don't go all out on first-timers with no BJJ training.

When I took my first BJJ classes, they let me get away with a lot of stuff that they wouldn't let me do so easily after the first month.


----------



## gusano

tmanifold said:
			
		

> I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.


thats a grand proclomation in its own right! It's *easy *to accidently ruin someones knee with a heel hook. They shouldn't be done by beginners and beginners shouldn't have them done on them.


----------



## Shogun

> BJJ schools don't do heel hooks on newbies


The person that heelhooked me was one of my good friends. it was after class. That and he knew I have had previous MA experience.

 once again, we were'nt going full speed. The guys that I grappled with WERE NOT going full speed. I will keep repeating this until it is known. I WILL apologize for sounding rude, thats not how I meant to come across. I am humble most of the time. I do however, disagree with some of the statements made. I WAS NOT GOING FULL SPEED, AND NEITHER WERE THE PEOPLE I GRAPPLED. its that simple. I posted that they are all great grapplers, did you tell them I said that, Mr Wonderful? It may be your business to call out crap (which I didnt post on purpose, I just didnt post the full story~My bad~) but it is not your business to ruin any possible friendship with the Gyms I attend. So keeping this polite and respectful, PLEASE keep personal issues to you and yourself.

Regards,
KE


----------



## MJS

tmanifold said:
			
		

> I know that I could and would heel hook a beginner, because I know I wouldn't hurt them. People with a real level of experience can try all sorts of stuff because they have the time in to know when someone is going to get hurt.



While this is true to a point, making sure that proper control is used is also important.  Keep in mind, that regardless of our skill level, we dont know how flexable our partner is.  When applying a lock, we can use a slight amount of pressure and get the person to tap, while others are like rubber and will not feel it until you just about reach the breaking point.  I've also had some people be macho tough guys and wait until the last minute to tap.  That is very dangerous and can lead to some serious injury.  Regardless of what the tech. is, they all should be applied using the utmost amount of control.  I was out of training for quite a while, due to a newbie doing a leg lock on me.  I came very close to tearing the ACL in my left leg.  What good is going all out, if its gonna mean your partner is not going to be able to train with you?

Mike


----------



## Shogun

I can see both sides of it. A beginner might not know how to take a heel hook, and hurt himself. his opponent might not have to do anything! However, my friend and I were taking it easy on each other, and werent really "forcing" anything. Plus, he knew I'd done heel hooks before, so he probably didnt worry about it much, since I'd done some in Taijutsu class before.

cheers,
KE


----------



## hedgehogey

Hey, i'm not trying to ruin your friendship with anybody. I'm just repeating what you said. You claimed to "wipe the floor" with one of their students. You then said you found your ninja stuff "more effective for actual combat". 

You know what I think? I think you confused some drill they were doing, with actual rolling.


----------



## Shogun

Most of the stuff I was talking about was after class, with my friend. The big guy was one of the less experienced guys in the class (he was still good, though). 
I understand why you probably got/get a little edgy when someone puts down your sport. I get a little upset too when that happens. but ask any non-BJJ guy (or girl) on this forum, and they will tell you that the ring is not the same as the street or battlefield, and that BJJ, while it has its place in the street, is mostly a ring sport. Its not for me, unless its a supplement. 
 BJJ came from Judo. Jigoro Kano took all lethal and sub-lethal moves out of Judo so it could be practiced at full speed. 
"ninja stuff", as you called it, is real-time combat. it decides a battle, and gets you to a safer place, as quick as possible. locked under someone in a guard is not a safer spot. especially if they have a knife, broken bottle, tire iron, or any type of sharp or dangerous object. I respect BJJ, I respect Tap or Snap, and I respect anyone who puts effort into the martial arts, what I dont respect is someone who thinks that their art or way of thinking is better than anyone elses. if you have any questions, PM me.

Cheers,
KE


----------



## hedgehogey

Yeah, I have a question: 

Why trot out the same tired "street vs sport" arguements which have been addressed a thousand times before? What do they have to do with the topic?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

*Warning*: :soapbox: 



			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> "*ninja stuff", as you called it, is real-time combat. it decides a battle*,


You have got to be kidding. EVery BJK guy I've randori'd with has been overhwelmed with the "aliveness" of the experience. They have had pretty moves with complex aiki concepts buried within, but almost no experience applying them in the kiln of preperatory training. Myself, I've sparred & rolled with many a BJK+offshoots/indies guys, and have yet to be unpleasantly surprised (again, great moves, just not much experience applying them against a vigorously resisting and counter-attacking opponent).

I was training a kenpo white belt for an appearance on Battledome, and we worked for about 2 weeks on basic BJJ grappling; 10 hours on basic arnis drills; and about 20 hours on kickboxing/sparring skills. One day, nearer to the event, we suited up in full kendo armour for some red-line panic-mode training. He got about 1 hour of extremely fundamental sowrdsmanship training ("hold it in front of you where it's practical, not pretty; whack the guy a lot, preferably where he ain't covered" kinda basic) when we were joined by our resident 4th dan BJK dude, who has travelled the world (Europe, South America, Japan, North America) training with different BJK & offshoot indie instructors to gain a thorough understanding of his art.

In the suits, he was so lost, he took a serious beating, having been nothing but a striking post for the student (but he looked good warming up with the to ahead of time...pretty postures, and all). Good thing Hatsumi-sama recently named the year of the sword(s), because from what I've seen, a refresher is needed bad.

Suits came off, and we sparred. He admittedly (after being bonked about a bit) had never trained in a continuous sparring situation like this before. He'd throw an ichimonji-like thrust to the body or head, which would get sloughed off and answered with a 5-shot combo, driving.

He got tired of being pummeled, so we rolled. Yeah, he was good at bending fingers & toes if we weren't paying attention, but aside from that he really had no clue how to navigate a clash, competitive take-down struggles, or wrasslin when the whole thing came to the floor.

I've visited -- and been visited by -- multiple shinoboys, and have not yet been given cause to step back and give pause. I feel kinda sorry for the guys who spend months arguing about pedigrees in the ninja forums, because so far, even the pure bloods I've trained with move like their coordinationally challenged, or have just never really sparred or grappled in their lives.

Don't get me wrong: the taijutsu techs are absolutely awesome, and I leave training very sore after each session. But it is the same problem I see with the "let's pretend" training I see in Kenpo (my main art). Some guy throws an attack, then stands there frozen in space and time while counter techniques are negotiated in their space. No follow-up hits from the attacker, no barrages or combos, just counters leading to aiki tie-ups (cool ones, but not alive). The taijutsu I learned was deeply influenced by Paris judo and hard-style kyukoshin-kai & isshin-ryu sparring, so there was always randori, sparring, etc., through all combat ranges.

I'm sure this will tick off the ninja online, leading to blasts on the rep points (bummer, too...I was almost destined to be famous), but from what I have seen, the actual number of hours spent in rigorous, strenuous *contest* with another warm body are minimal...and they do matter. *It's how you actually learn to apply what you've learned to someone who doesn't want you to.*

As a side thought of the silliness of the "BJJ is sport, not combat" thing, world-traveller ninja-boy thought it was a good idea to torque my wrist while I was mounted on him. Spoke of using pain to dismount someone while he did it. Yep, it hurt...and it took him a moment to emerge from his world of fantasy to see the repeated inward slamming elbows I was aiming at his head for effect, but pulling out of courtesy (to make a point). It only takes a couple of contacts from those blows in that position to definitively determine the combat effectiveness of BJJ. Did anybody see the kickboxer in one of the 1st UFC's who had been working on his grappling "just a bit" (after being beaten by Royce the previous time around), who mounted one of Bussey's senior ninja-boys, and elbowed him till it looked like skull was showing through the cuts? Remember how dizzy and looped the Warrior International fighter was...feet seizing in shock from the beating, stopped by the judge because the ninja had no idea what happened, or how to stop it? And he (the kick-boxer) wasn't even trained for any great length of time in how to gain or keep superior positions, much less natural weapons available for striking from these positions. He basically *found* himself in the mount (looking surprised, but pleased), and took advantage of it.

And if you think he only knew to strike because of his kickboxing experience, watch some of the Vale Tudo grudge matches from Brazil, pre-BJJ coming to US. Common formula: Mount, Beat, then Choke out or break bones. And they beat from any of the superior positions, with punches, elbows, knees, head-butts, kicks, and so on. My wrist would've been sore, but the side of his face would have been caved in from about a dozen elbows he wouldn't have been able to block (I was kneeling on his ipsilateral hand). Reality check on the deadly ninja battle skills, bubba.

I trained and brawled with some of the first Hayes students to proliferate in underground OC clubs, and was not impressed. Shame, really, because I know there are some sick-deadly practitioners out there I wouldn't wanna mess with (i.e., doubt I want to cross Mr. Seago while he's busy going bump in the night). 

I am old, out of shape, and haven't been on the mat for years.  I'm *still* sure I know *enough* about BJJ that, if you *don't* know what you're doing, you'll just place yourself in a number of waiting mouse traps as a natural result of the instinctual response to struggle to move away from pressure and pain. Worse yet, I can pop ya from just about any position in the process...and *I* can reach *your* eyes, *too*!

This sort of knowledge about what we can do when we turn the screws tighter, combined with the fact we actually get down and dirty (not theoretical, but lotsa contact) when we train, may be where much of the BJJ attitude comes from.  People who have never been on the mat telling us that their kata preparation would magically keep us from snatching them to the floor, *beating them bloody, breaking their bones and choking them till their cold and blue* like a killer whale yanking a beached seal back to the depths for consumption. As if, somehow, those who have been in it for awhile haven't done just that to many well-accomplished "combat" martial artists.

Get it through deinen nogginen...BJJ is one of the most effective approaches to personal combat, and this point is bourne out assuredly everyday in small-level challenge matches between proponents of different disciplines, as well as in unecessary street-fights engaged in by the young and stupid who train in BJJ. Perfect? No. Not by any means, making the BJJ attitude all the more annoying. But combine it with what you know about scratching eyes, chewing adams apples, etc., and it's a darn good system for establishing and maintaining superior positions from which you *can* do nasty things to him, while he *can't* do them to you.

Off the soapbox,

Dave


----------



## Shogun

I was refering to getting into a fight, OUTSIDE of a Dojo. Yeah, sure, this subject has been adressed a thousand times. but its because people keep ignoring it. 


> You have got to be kidding. EVery BJK guy I've randori'd with has been overhwelmed with the "aliveness" of the experience.


every Booj dojo trains differently. not all train in a particular way. basically there is no Cookie cutters in the Bujinkan. 

all of this howver is going off topic. I have drawn out exactly what I have originally posted. I stated that BJJ guys think there is nothing that can touch their art. None of them can keep their cool when someone isnt representing it. I have proved my original point.

regards,
Ke


----------



## JDenz

lol which goes back to my point at the beginning of the thread also.  Everyone that thinks there is a BJJ atitude also has a attitude about there martial art.  In all the time I have been on martial talk I have seen this arguement over and over agian lol.  Everyone is going to think what they do is best because they are the ones doing it.


----------



## Shogun

Of course. lol. 

we are all fanboys here. I see the attitude in myself. I do, however, see it MORE in BJJ guys (or girls), though.

By the way, I love my art. lol.


----------



## grappling_mandala

Ego always gets in the way of good training. 

Dave


----------



## JDenz

No way ego makes for awsome training.


----------



## ace

:samurai: 





			
				JDenz said:
			
		

> lol which goes back to my point at the beginning of the thread also.  Everyone that thinks there is a BJJ atitude also has a attitude about there martial art.
> 
> 
> I have seen this as well
> In all the time I have been on martial talk I have seen this arguement over and over agian lol.
> 
> 
> 
> This Statement is Verry True
> Everyone is going to think what they do is best because they are the ones doing it.


----------



## Shogun

> No way ego makes for awsome training.


..mmmmmmmm......Eggos......


----------



## Fight with attitude

JDenz said:
			
		

> No way ego makes for awsome training.


No it doesn't...if I had an ego when I sparred I wouldn't go out of my comfort zone. If I didn't go out of my comfort zone I would stop progressing very fast.

You wouldn't share information with other training partners about how to tap you out.

It's not fun training with another person with an ego...I've training with people that had egos and people who didn't...I have learned and had more fun with the people without egos.


----------



## Lisa

Shogun said:
			
		

> ..mmmmmmmm......Eggos......


LOL!  Plain or blueberry? 

but back to the thread.

I would much rather train with people with no ego then with those that have one.  Confidence in what you are doing and the ability to help others is one thing, but arrogance is completely another.


----------



## Shogun

> LOL! Plain or blueberry?


Depends on the day.

There is a very thin line between Confidence and ego. One should gain confidence, otherwise they will eventually give up, or stop learning.


----------



## Barra Brazil

i beleive that the bjj guys with the "attitude" are still riding the wave of gracie's wins in the early ufc's. he just plain made everything else look silly. but we live in an age of information and it didn't take long for the goodies to get leaked out. not to mention the $ to be made. what a goldmine. little guy destroys all with secret system. the gracies traded their secrets for $. well soon enough everybody who wanted to compete, watched, studied and learned. a decade later if you go into a mma compitition with just bjj, you'll get smoked. you must train muay thai or some kind of kickboxing as well. and you had better study up on your wrestling too. i also believe that a lot of stand up martial artists believe that because of this, bjj is not as dominant as it was back in the early 90's. i think one should keep in mind that the only thing that stops bjj is bjj. if you don't have at least a fair understanding of bjj, as just about every mma competitor does, then you're in the same boat as those poor guys back in ufc's 1,2 and 3. i just returned from three month's in rio and let me tell you, everybody down there knows the diference between sport, vale tudo and a streat fight. as far as a "real street fight" or multiple enemy situations, you have no idea what will happen on the street. this is not a bruce lee movie, right? these people really mean it. yes, a clean knockout with a -----or----- would be great but anybody who has been in a few street fights knows that short of a blindside sucker punch it is not so easy to knock a man out. would it be easy to take you out with one shot? how would you fair against yourself? we should always assume our opponent is at least as good as us. well this makes the question of multiple attackers kind of rough, no? how would you fair against three of you? do you think you could keep three of you from taking you to the ground? mmmmm, maybe a little ground work might be a good idea. don't under estimate your opponent"s". he's been training hard and he knows how to take you down, he knows how to kick and he know's how to punch. he has a weapon and friends. behind you. 
train hard


----------



## LiteBlu

LOL! I have read this whole thread and all I have to say is this:



SHOGUN = OWNED



RFLMAO!


----------



## Shogun

Not really. I proved my point. All I had to do was "leave out the facts" and BAM! the truth..


PS Kudos to Barra Brazil to showing me and others not all BJJ guys are A holes.
Hedgehogey was and now he's banned.


----------



## CrankyDragon

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> What he's probably reffering to as "fake" is that the majority of yoshin-ryu, daito-ryu, etc. schools don't train "alive", with real resistance (I was in daito-ryu for six months). Instead, usually practice is done against compliant partners.


Much like Aikido, which I why I transitioned to BJJ, which offers a chance to feel your techniques in a "real world" situation, where the Uke is trying to not let you perform the technique.




			
				Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> The attitude comes from a put-up or shut-up competitive attitude


That may very well be a large contributing factor.





			
				Enson said:
			
		

> i think alot of this attitude is from "newbies" in their style.


Any different in any other style? I think not... What "yellow belt" doesnt think they can whip the world?  Also, likely 80% of yellow belts levels are young, hence the lack of developed maturity.  I say the statmenet is applicable for all arts and sports in general.





> So my question is how good should you really be after training in a style for 3 yrs.?


Only as good as that individual has the potential to be.  Trying to put a style with performance is fruitless. 





			
				Sarah said:
			
		

> We should all respect each other&#8217;s arts, especially if we know nothing about it!!


Agreed, and also respect the arts we _do_ know something about.






			
				PreviousPost said:
			
		

> JDenz said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> How many people have you poked in the eye?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shogun said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who me? Just 2. myself, and my little brother.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

Now I had to chuckle at that one...





			
				Fight with attitude said:
			
		

> I've been to a BJJ school once. Some of the people were very nice, others wouldn't even look at me or say hi because I was new.
> 
> That dojo is night and day different to the dojo I train at now which has a lot of grappling, everyone helps out everyone.


I too am lucky, the school Im at now everyone is nice and willing to help teach!  This is a reflection that the negative attitudes that others perceive are not necessarily (Sp?) the fault of the art.





			
				Baoquan said:
			
		

> Just one. He was questioning my ability to remove him from the bar I was working in. I was about 70kgs (155lbs) at the time, and he was around 100 (220lbs). He grabbed me. I put my right thumb in his left eye.  He let go of me. He left the bar.
> 
> It works ok.


HAHAHA!





			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> Despite the attitude I get from BJJer's (not all, like I said) I am going to try out a class on tuesday.
> 
> Here is the link:
> 
> Tap or snap


Ya know, I look at the instructors... and they _look_ cocky!  But, I bet they are good.  I get the impression they are not just training for the art, but for the RING.




			
				Shogun said:
			
		

> I might go back, but I'd have to make time, and I find my style more effective for actual combat.


Nothing wrong with that, WooTs! out to you!!


----------



## Eternal Beginner

CrankyDragon said:
			
		

> I too am lucky, the school Im at now everyone is nice and willing to help teach! This is a reflection that the negative attitudes that others perceive are not necessarily (Sp?) the fault of the art.



My BJJ gym is very friendly as well.  But I have to add a bit to that to make it absolutely true.  At first, the people were considerate and polite...but didn't really engage you all that much.  I found this strange at first because I had come from a school that was full of housewives and kids that was chatty and relaxed, so the somewhat "cool" reception seemed odd.  After attending I finally realised that I was doing the same thing and I figured out why.  

When you go to a BJJ school you are often flooded (especially after a PPV UFC or now that TUF is on) with wannabes who figure they will jump out there and learn it all and want to sit and shoot the breeze about their favorite fighters.  98% of the time they come for a week or two and you never, ever see them again because they realise it is work, hard work...and that sucks the fun out of it for them.  They soon realise that the guys who are there are actually there to learn BJJ and are not just there to be _able to say they do BJJ_ - big difference.

Maybe it isn't the ideal situation, but you have to have sympathy for the guys who train consistently and sincerely having to always deal with "the next UFC champions" who walk through the door.  If they were to invest tons of emotional energy into what is most likely a fleeting fellow student, you  could wind up very tired and disappointed.  I now have a similar policy.  A new student comes in, I am polite, civil and amiable..but I don't go much deeper than that until they train consistently for quite a while.  It isn't snobbishness, it is a fact of life.


----------



## AdrenalineJunky

Shogun said:
			
		

> (Before I begin, let me say this is just my opinion, no offense is meant by it)
> 
> 
> I have talked to several guys who take BJJ from various schools in my area. *Everyone of them thinks there is nothing that can touch BJJ*. They have cocky attitudes and the words they use to describe MAs the havent heard of: Fake.


 

They, apparently, have never felt a Sawk Ku Kao Loy.


----------



## kenpohack

Shogun said:
			
		

> (Before I begin, let me say this is just my opinion, no offense is meant by it)
> 
> 
> I have talked to several guys who take BJJ from various schools in my area. Everyone of them thinks there is nothing that can touch BJJ. They have cocky attitudes and the words they use to describe MAs the havent heard of: Fake.
> One of my aquaintances attends a local BJJ academy, and when I told him the martial arts I practice he had nothing nice to say. he said the Grappling we did in Budo Taijutsu is irrelevent, and said he'd never heard of styles such as Yoshin Ryu Jujutsu. I try to explain about the martial arts, but get nothing but rolling eyes. He said, "do you guys run around in little black masks and hide from each other?" anyone else experience this kinda "better than thou" attitude with BJJ guys?



I know exactly what you mean. I study both bjj and kenpo. When I first started to scout bjj schools in my town, I had a 5th degree black belt tell me to quit kenpo because it's worthless. I thanked him for his time and ran from that school. I think the attitude permeates the art from beginners to teachers alike. 

That being said, I've found many humble teachers and practitioners. Nevertheless, there is still a quiet air of superiority that is easily detectable when looking for it even among the seemingly humble. In reality, bjj is a rugged style. It's an art that focuses on combat and winning. It does both very effectively. Most bjj guys know they can beat other martial artists, so their arrogance is not unfounded. What most bjj fighters don't realize is that it is less their art that is superior than their training habits. Most bjj classes are at least two hours, one hour of which is spent doing nothing but sparring. The average practitioner does three hours or more of sparring per week. Confidence can metamorphose into cockiness when one is not careful.


----------



## AdrenalineJunky

kenpohack said:
			
		

> Most bjj guys know they can beat other martial artists,


 
Depends on the circumstances, really. I'm not trying to knock BJJ, but it's not the be-all-end-all art, any more than Muay Thai is. A lot of people know nothing about BJJ; I think that's what makes it most effective. I was training my Kenpoka buddy for the sparring portion of his advancement test. . .they didn't have a clue what to do with some of the Thai blocks and strikes (ones that he could use, anyway). Besides, how long has it been since a Gracie fought in the UFC? 

Seems like cross-training a striking system is pretty necessary when it comes to BJJ, although I have little first-hand knowledge.


----------



## Flying Crane

kenpohack said:
			
		

> What most bjj fighters don't realize is that it is less their art that is superior than their training habits. Most bjj classes are at least two hours, one hour of which is spent doing nothing but sparring. The average practitioner does three hours or more of sparring per week. Confidence can metamorphose into cockiness when one is not careful.


 
Well said, I would have to agree with you.


----------



## arnisador

Excellent point about the training habits vs. the arts. I often think of that when people compare boxers who spend severqal hours per day in the gym, much of it sparring, to karateka who spend two hours per week in the gym.


----------



## rutherford

My guess is that Shogun has a bit different perspective at this time.


It also seems that a lot of folks have an attitude about BJJ.  Lots of instructors will say, "Now, this is how a BJJ guy would do this, it's completely wrong, and this is what we would do instead."  Having done a bit of no-gi, I usually disagree about what I think a BJJ guy would do . . .  Quietly.  To myself.


----------



## Eternal Beginner

rutherford said:
			
		

> ...It also seems that a lot of folks have an attitude about BJJ. Lots of instructors will say, "Now, this is how a BJJ guy would do this, it's completely wrong, and this is what we would do instead."



Yeah, I've heard many non-BJJ instructors do this exact thing.  I especially like the ones who have never studied BJJ but that are trying to teach in the same area (sub grap and mma) run down BJJ like they actually know what they are talking about.  The most common are, 1)BJJ'ers know nothing about takedowns or working the clinch and 2)they don't know what to do if striking is included 3)they only train in the gi. 

Again, it is narrow-minded people defending themselves blindly and hopefully trying to make a buck off of other people's ignorance.


----------



## arnisador

Exactly. I hear this all the time. People are trying to jump on the grappling bandwagon. The "BJJers don't know what to do if you strike" issue I hear most often, and at least judging from where I study BJJ, it's simply false.


----------



## Eternal Beginner

arnisador said:
			
		

> Exactly. I hear this all the time. People are trying to jump on the grappling bandwagon. The "BJJers don't know what to do if you strike" issue I hear most often, and at least judging from where I study BJJ, it's simply false.



It truly is amazing how many out there who have studied a non-grappling MA are now considering themselves qualified to teach grappling because they have either "self-taught" from videos (shades of "get your black belt by video" ads you find in the back of MA magazines) or because they figure they know a little more than the next guy so , what the heck, make 'em pay.  

I suppose as more and more reputable, good schools build reputations in competition and the local MMA scene, naive potential students will have more tools to tell the good from the bad.  As it is now, a lot of it is snake oil.  

Ooops, a little off topic, sorry!


----------



## Shogun

Funny how MY attitude has changed over the past two years.
the story:
-I was getting disrespected by BJJ guys for practicing other grappling styles such as Wrestling and Japanese Jujutsu.
-I made the complaint.
-I validated the complaint by actually practicing BJJ.
-I went to a school, tapped a few lower level students. got tapped by the higher ones, and then was told that there was NO WAY I could tap any BJJ guy.
-went to a different school (Gracie Jiu Jitsu, under GM Helio Gracie)
- Loved it. 
-now its my primary art


----------



## Eternal Beginner

Shogun said:
			
		

> Funny how MY attitude has changed over the past two years.
> the story:
> -I was getting disrespected by BJJ guys for practicing other grappling styles such as Wrestling and Japanese Jujutsu.
> -I made the complaint.
> *-I validated the complaint by actually practicing BJJ.*


At least you bothered to go check BJJ out.  I know of guys who say outlandish things about BJJ but have never actually studied it, and they wonder why no other martial artists take them seriously.


> -I went to a school, tapped a few lower level students. got tapped by the higher ones, and then was told that there was NO WAY I could tap any BJJ guy.


Again, depending on the school you can have very different experiences.  We had one school (now closed down) in my city that was run by former criminals and thugs...some people got a really bad idea of BJJ from them.  However many of them came to our club which is a relaxed, friendly place and now they are thrilled to be studying again.


> -went to a different school (Gracie Jiu Jitsu, under GM Helio Gracie)
> - Loved it.
> -now its my primary art



Just sad that so many people stereotype BJJ because of their misperceptions and many times ignorance.  I'm not saying it is perfect, there will always be jerks in any art, but generally speaking I have found that most of the guys I train with cross-train in other arts and are very accepting of them.  They don't usually say BJJ is the be-all, end-all because if they truly believed that they wouldn't be cross-training, would they?


----------

