# wado ryu kata



## lucifersdad (Apr 23, 2003)

just out of personal intrest i was wondering what kata are being taught at what grade in varying styles/schools.
here is a list of mine for comparison,
if anyone knows anymore wado kata can you tell me because i think my instructor is holding out on some dan grade kata,
cheers.

kata in order: (alternate names in brackets)

kyu grade:
tokioko
pinan nidan
pinan shodan
pinan sandan
pinan yodan
pinan godan
kushanku (kanku dai)
nai hanchi (tekki shodan)
chinto (gankaku)

dan grade:
basai dai
basai sho
seshan (angetsu)
rohai
jitte
jion
enpi (wansu)
nesaeshi (nijushio sho)
unsu


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## kenmpoka (Apr 23, 2003)

Actually few in your list are not Wado kata. Unsu, Nijushiho (Niseishi) and Bassai-Sho were not originally part of the Wado canon. You are missing Naihanchi (tekki) Nidan and Sandan. Oh btw its Seishan (Hangetsu).

:asian:


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## lucifersdad (Apr 23, 2003)

thanks for the info,
is tekki nidan etc. part of the wado system as no clubs in the uk teach them as part of wad ryu, i've only seen them in shotokan schools?


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## kenmpoka (Apr 23, 2003)

Ohtsuka, took with him all the original kata that Funakoshi taught at the time. 15 plus three Taikyoku plus Rohai (an older version) in some schools.
5 Pinans, 3 Naihanchi, Jutte, Jion, Enpi, Gankaku, Seishan, Bassai and Kanku. Most schools now days only teach 1 Taikyoku, sometimes under the name of Kihon no Kata. 
:asian:


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## cas (Apr 25, 2003)

hello all,

Following is a part of the text on the history of wado on sensei ohgami's website:
http://www.hogia.net/karate/karate/history.htm

1970 Karatedo Vol.1 by Ohtsuka was published. He presents 9 Wadoryu Katas (Pinan-5, Naifanchi, Seishan, Kushanku and Chinto). He declared in his book that Wadokai had these 9 Katas  and nothing more. If you study a Kata deeply and carefully, then 9 Katas are already very many. That is my impression. 9 Wadoryu Katas were finally standardized by this book.   


But especially in Europe some instructors taught other Katas (Bassai, Jion, Jitte, Niseishi and Rohai) though they were not official in Wadokai. Maybe because more Katas were needed considering the competitive situation against other styles. But this caused a sort of turbulence in Wado Katas. In some FEW competitions we could see for example four or five different Bassai Katas. Today Wadokai has standardized these Katas.

Wadoryu Katas and the influence 

Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan
(Ohtsuka studied Pinan Katas from Funakoshi - Funakoshi was called Pinan Sensei in Tokyo, but rearranged after Mabuni and some idea from Shindo Yoshinryu.)    Funakoshi Mabuni    
Naifanchi       
(Ohtsuka says that he has taken Motobus Naifanchi. But there is a slight difference from Motobus Naifanchi.)   
     Motobu  
Seishan
(It is obvious that Ohtsuka has taken Shotokan Seishan (today Hangetsu). In no other style Seishan is performed in this way.)   
 Funakoshi      
Kushanku Funakoshi Mabuni    
Chinto
(Both Kushanku and Chinto are similar in Shitoryu and Shotokan. These should be classified as Itosu Kushanku and Itosu Chinto.)  Funakoshi Mabuni    
Bassai
(Bassai Kata of Shitoryu, Shotokan and Wadoryu are in the same stream - Itosu Bassai. But Wado Bassai is a direct heritage from Shotokan.) 
 Funakoshi     
Jion, Jitte
(Jitte, Jion and Jiin seem to be Katas of similar type. These Katas in Shitoryu and Shotokan are similar.) 
 Funakoshi Mabuni    
Niseishi
(Ohtsuka may have studied Niseishi from Funakoshi first, but adjusted later to Shitoryu way.)    Mabuni    
Rohai
(This is Itosu Rohai. Wado Rohai is Rohai Shodan, while Shotokan Meikyo is Rohai Nidan.)    Mabuni    
Wanshu
(It is probable that Ohtuska did not make much change in this Kata from Funakoshi.) 
 Funakoshi     

Hope this helps,

Casper Baar


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## lucifersdad (Apr 25, 2003)

thanks again for the info,
just one question, this may sound stupid but anyway,
i have very limited knowlege on this subjest so can anyone help, what are the main differances between wado ryu and wado kai?

i know wado kai is an offshoot of wado ryu, and newer but as for that im pretty much lost.
anyhelp on the subject would greatly be appreciated

thanks in advance.


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## cas (Apr 26, 2003)

This is a question that will get you different answers depending on who you ask. 
Try this link:
http://www.wadoworld.com/history/orgtimel/orgtimelfr.html
If you are interested in finding an answer to this question listen to stories from all sides. 
I.m.o. this doesn't really matter for me in learning wado. Curriculi may vary a bit between organisations but they also vary between countries and dojo's within one organisation. Again i.m.o. this is more a question of politics then of techniques. Beware of politics!

have a nice weekend,

Casper Baar


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## lucifersdad (Apr 26, 2003)

again thanks for the info, im starting to beleive that my knowledge is a lot less than i thought! but hey, surely this is the first step to actually learning something.......:asian:


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## Jill666 (Apr 27, 2003)

Some great info! I study Kenpo, so acquired the below later-

I have been taught Bassai Dai, Konku Dai, Tekki Shodan, and Itosu Rohai Shodan and Sandan. I knew these to be Karate forms.

My understanding is that Bassai, Konku, Tekki are traditional Wado-Ryu and taught by Funakoshi, whereas the Rohai kata were from Itosu?

I also was told that Itosu developed Bassai Sho and Konku Sho derived from Bassai Dai and Konku Dai.

The men I have studied with in Kyusho have Tekki Sodan-Sandan, I just have learned Shodan so far. They told me origionally the Tekki were one kata, later broken up for learning. 

Comments? Corrections?


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## cas (Apr 27, 2003)

Jill,

Before continueing in any further replies I should say that I am just a third kyu and it's only recently that I've invested in my interest in wado, karate and martial arts history. I am by no means very knowledgeable on the subject, most information I have I found on the internet and forums like these. 
Wado is a young style and I don't think there are kata's in wado that originated from wado, if that is what you meant. Offcourse there is a typical wado performance of the kata.  Funakoshi never taught wado kata's. Funakoshi called his style Shotokan, Ohtsuka first learnt karate from Funakoshi. Funakoshi was a student of Itosu. 
I do not know if your kenpo style has any wado influences, but I don't think so ask/ look around see if you can find a lineage of teachers. Funakoshi changed the names of some of the kata's Ohtsuka changed these back again. The names you mention are the "Funakoshi-names".

Excuses for any bad english

have a nice week,

Casper Baar
the Netherlands


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## Jill666 (Apr 27, 2003)

Actually, your English is very good. (much better than my Dutch, for instance). I have always had difficulty learning from the written word, whareas if you demonstrate physically or just tell me verbally I can retain information.

Ok, so here goes- Itosu taught traditional Shotokan Karate. His student, Funakoshi changed some names but continued teaching the Shotokan style. (These names I know, am just getting to learn the parts they played in MA history). Otsuka learned from Funakoshi, then branched off and pioneered Wadoryu?

My Kenpo style has mainly shaolin influences. I am simply interested in the history of these forms I have recently been learning. We have also learned Tai Chi, GoJu Ryu and WeiJi Ryu forms (my spelling is probably wrong).

It is helpful to know that the Karate forms I mentioned are taught to me under the Funakoshi names & presumably that Shotokan style. 

Thanks for your time in replying- the fact that you are third kyu does not make your information invalid. :asian:


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 28, 2003)

Hi Jill,

About Funakoshi sensei learning Shotokan from Itosu sensei?
The name 'Shotokan' comes from the first dojo Funakoshi sensei had in mainland Japan after his move there from Okinawa. 
Shoto was his 'pen-name' used when he wrote poetry, Kan simply means 'building/hall'. So the karate being taught at Funakoshi sensei's dojo became known to his students and others as the 'Shotokan [style] of karatedo'. 
Funakoshi sensei himself was dead set against karate being split in to 'styles'. To him and other Okinawans of his generation, karate was karate. It was the Japanese who wanted to have styles. The first Okinawan karate to have a style name was in fact Goju-ryu. Again this was at the insistance of the Butokukai who were at the time the governing body for martial arts in Japan.
Itosu sensei taught Shuri-te [Shuri hand], in other words, the fighting tradition found in the  [then] Okinawan capital, Shuri.
Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu are from the Naha-te, the kind of fighting found in Naha. There was also Tomari-te from the port district of Tomari [Bassai, Rohai etc]
Kata names were changed to rid them of their Chinese origins and so be better accepted amongst the very anti-Chinese feelings being held in Japan at the time.
Hope you don't think I'm nit pick'in here, I'm just trying to help 

Happy punching,
Mike.


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## cas (Apr 28, 2003)

Since we're talking kata history, perhaps someone can help me with this. 
From what I've read Funakoshi sensei didn't teach bunkai the way it is taught in for instance Goju-ryu (practicing different kata applications with a partner)
I'm particularly interested in grappling applications in the kata's. Ohstuka sensei brought some grappling applications into wado from Shindo Yoshin jujutsu, Funakoshi sensei was against mixing karate with jujutsu. From what I understand there are many grappling applications to kata taught in Okinawan styles. My questions are:
Why didn't Funakoshi teach these applications?
Did Funakoshi sensei know these applications well enough to teach them? 
Did Ankoh Itosu teach these applications?
Is there such a thing as lineage in bunkai (I've learnt this from my teacher who learnt it from.. back to a founder of a style?

Just to tell you some of the things I've heard/ read.
The bunkai is taken out of karate in the do-ification/ to make it better fit for the japanese. 
Also I've read somewhere that Funakoshi sensei didn't have much grappling skills.

Any insights on this matter is appreciated.

thanks,

Casper


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## lucifersdad (Apr 28, 2003)

as far as i know wado was origionally a style of jujutsu( or so i was told, but dont take that as gospal) and therefore there are many grappling applications, for example:-
first move of tokiyoko, gedan barai or arm bar?
9th move of tokiyoko, turn and block or taiatoshi?
1st move of chinto, jujiuke jodan or choke hold?

just a couple of basic moves that i show to some of my students that think kata isnt worth learning, theres grappling applications for nearly everymove of the kata we do.
when i was first taught kata it was "this is a block" "this is a punch" but when i got my dan grade i was seen has having done my apprentaship and that i was ready to learn and i was "guided" to find most of these for myself with a few guiding pointers from my shihan.
just have a play, it totally changed my veiw of kata and improved my overall performance of them


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## Mike Clarke (Apr 28, 2003)

Cas,
As far as I'm aware there is no such thing as 'bunkai linage'.
As ones understanding of a kata deepens, so ones ability to make it work changes. Bunkai are just training exercises made up so one can grasp some sense of 'feeling' for the ideas encoded in the kata. They are not set on bronze!
As for your questions regarding Funakoshi sensei, Unless there is someone here who knew the man and had conversations with him about his karate, I can't see how you will get answers to your questions that is not simply speculation?
Kata are like a 'boxed set' of ideas for you to train with when you don't have a partner to train with. The deeper you understand them, the more you see in them.
Mike.


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## Jill666 (Apr 28, 2003)

That's exactly the kind of info I was looking for- keep it coming.

:asian:


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## lucifersdad (Apr 28, 2003)

you could do with checking with the DSI (dragon society international) but i have seen the first 2 moves of tokiyoko to be a pressure point knock out. i dont go for those much myself because i dont know enough about it but it looked quite impressive.

a couple more bunkai for you,
second move of pinan godan- reverse punch or osotogari?
second move of pinan sandan- double block or hammer lock?
last move of pinan yodan- stamp and push or hip throw?(kind of)

try them out and tell me what you think


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## cas (Apr 29, 2003)

Thank you for the provided information.
Some of my questions are answered others might never be.

Lucifersdad: Ohstuka sensei had a teachers license in Shindo Yoshin ryu Jujitsu, this is where the jujitsu applications in wado come from. Some of the current wadoka's were also schooled in this jujitsu style by him (Sensei Ohstuka's son is the only one I can think of right now but I think there are more). They could use their specific jujutsu knowledge to theach bunkai. However to say that this is the reason there are grappling applications is wrong, the kata existed long before anyone from the japanese main islands (such as Ohtsuka sensei) practised them.
If you are interested in wado history check out the other information given on Ohgami senseis site. Tim Evans also has good info on his site. http://www.wadoryu.org.uk/

Much of the bunkai's grappling applications shown today come from other systems, mostly judo and jujitsu. This seems to depend on the systems the sensei or shihan knows. Not that I object to this. It just makes me wonder if these grappling applications were once trained as a intregal part of karate or if they were always taken from an outside art such as Okinawan wrestling. Offcourse you can show a grappling application in kata but unless you are trained in grappling (like for instance a judoka trains) you aren't very likely to use to such applications in a fight.


casper


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## Liam Digby (May 12, 2003)

As new guy to this discussion group I thought I might be able to add something to this discussion, particularly as Casper and Lucifersdad both want to talk about Wado karate.

Specifically to Lucifersdad;
I saw an article by someone in the DSI in UK magazine "Traditional Karate" in which the author talked about the practicing of the Kihon Gumites and how he'd never seen anyone be able to make them work! Now as the Kihon Gumites, as far as I understand them, relate to the kata applications that's quite an admission!

From the various Wado Senseis I've trained under the working of applications which are extracted from the kata are based mostly upon principles of body movement and from there all kinds of possibilities open out, doesn't get you "stuck in a mold" as one of my Senseis often says.

To Casper,
Yes I agree, the bunkai stuff does appear to come from outside of people's system. There's a book by Iain Abernethy all about this kind of bunkai, but it is hardly an endorsment of the Wado or Shotokan he learned that he felt a need to add all of this to it. Afterall, from my limited experience I can see that Wado has close-up and grappling skills aplenty, lots of chokes and takedowns, but they are not the most difficult part of the system, the most difficult parts are the evasions, unbalancing of the opponent and the angles and distances. Mr Abernethy makes no mention of those in his book.

Liam


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## cas (May 12, 2003)

Hi Liam,

As far as I know the kihon kumite and ohyo kumite of Ohtsuka sensei are not related to the karate kata in origin. Some moves have been taken directly from Yoshin ryu jiu-jutsu some of the principles are also found in kendo and seem to come from there. 
I think these yakusoku kumites are very (mainland) japanese and the kata's are Okinawan in origin.
Just to make sure we are talking about the same thing, does this look familiar? http://home-1.worldonline.nl/~martg/ 
In alot of the kihon kumites the first defensive (nagashi uke) move puts you in a position where you leave your (lower) body open to an attack. This is a position you also find yourself in in some of the first moves of the pinan kata's (shodan and yondan)what I'm trying to find out is if it's possible to follow up with a kihon move from a pinan stance (just making up some bunkai). 
I'm studying the first five kihon and the first three ohyo's, this will probably keep me busy the next couple a' years. 

Casper


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## Liam Digby (May 12, 2003)

Hello Casper,
Just so that we're not at cross purposes, you said:

"As far as I know the kihon kumite and ohyo kumite of Ohtsuka sensei are not related to the karate kata in origin."

I'm with you as regards Kihon Gumite, but when you talk of Ohyo Gumite are you thinking of the Ohyo Gumite found in the syllabus of Tatsuo Suzuki (No. 1 - 8) and constructed by master Suzuki based upon his time training under master Ohtsuka, or are you thinking of what are referred to as kumite gata (No. 1 -36)?

Also;
"I think these yakusoku kumites are very (mainland) japanese and the kata's are Okinawan in origin."

Yes, I believe you are right, but isn't it interesting to examine how Ohtsuka used the katas to match his own ideas, and the katas do match up to the Kumites. One of the Senseis I trained under showed me how the kata moves were applied and then developed, but not by using them exactly how they were in the kata, which he said was a convenience tool to make the kata flow. But instead the same moves were performed incorporating body shifting. Loads of possibilities came out of that. 

You mentioned;
"In alot of the kihon kumites the first defensive (nagashi uke) move puts you in a position where you leave your (lower) body open to an attack."

Two points about that; firstly the opening move of Kihons is not meant to be defensive. The body shift enables you to take the option of putting your own counter measure in or just walking away unharmed. Whatever, you have the option. Also each time you contact with your opponent you have to think of it as an attack. A Japanese Sensei I trained with showed me that some of the Kihon moves had been sanitized and with only the smallest of adjustments they become very nasty, so much so that you couldn't practice them safely.

I had a look at that weblink but the Mpeg didn't want to cooperate. But the single still that I did get showed the sweeping hand from Pinan Yodan, and by the look of it you're from the Renmei side of the fence (Also your badge tells me the same).

More power to you.


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## cas (May 13, 2003)

Hi Liam,

Im not the guy on the mpeg. Its just the only place I know on the web that has the kumites online as a video. Parts from the Duch-language book on kumite training by Hideo Muramatsu are online at wadoworld. http://www.wadoworld.com/technical/kumite/kumiteframes.html

If our school is affiliated its probably with the renmei but this isnt something thats very obvious. Perhaps the Dutch are funny at this. Most of the Dutch karatekas (from Wado, Shito, Goju, Shotokan and some other styles) get their dan-grades at national exams taken by the Dutch karate association (examination-style groups within the association make sure you arent only at a certain level at karate but also at more style specific skills). Students from our school go to seminars from both Takashima sensei and Suzuki sensei. There are also teachers in Holland that follow the teachings they had from Kono sensei. 
With yakusoku kumites I meant all predescribed pair work as opposed to jiju kumite free pair work. 
We practise Ohyo kumite 1-8. 

Im aware of (some of) the difference(s) between the training forms and the applications forms in these kumites. We get told: this is how the form is and this is a way to practice this form at full speed/ force.

Could you please explain what you mean by the move not being defensive? The way I see it the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in an attack, but since this is a reaction to an attack the body shift is defensive. 

Perhaps I wasnt clear in my last post, what I meant was: the position (in say kihon kumite ipponme) leaves part of the body open to an attack, what follows is an attack to this part of the body. A similar thing happens in the first moves of pinan shodan and could happen as a follow up to the first moves in pinan yondan. What do you think?

I agree with you on what the most difficult parts of the system are. Ive seen people using tai-sabaki in a forward movement as a reponse to an attack in a free practise situation. Im happy if I saw the attack coming and didnt get hit.

Casper


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## Liam Digby (May 14, 2003)

Thank you for your reply Casper,

"Could you please explain what you mean by the move not being defensive? The way I see it the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in an attack, but since this is a reaction to an attack the body shift is defensive."

"Perhaps I wasnt clear in my last post, what I meant was: the position (in say kihon kumite ipponme) leaves part of the body open to an attack, what follows is an attack to this part of the body. A similar thing happens in the first moves of pinan shodan and could happen as a follow up to the first moves in pinan yondan. What do you think?"

Yes you are right the move is performed in the same manner (intention) as you would in attack. You are responding to an attack and as priority you have to move the threatened area off line while making space for your self to operate and not losing any significant distance. But that front hand can attack the attacker's arm as in kumite gata and one of the Tanto dori opening moves I can think of. The front hand that is normally used for wedging can be easily addapted to strike while still maintaining the integrity of the first evasion.

As for part of the body being exposed to attack; well the attacker has to change either his line or his distance if he is to execute a successful follow up technique, in short, his options are limited. It could also be said that his attack area is limited and he is being set up.

Pinan Shodan, well. As far as I have come across nobody has tried to apply a Wado application for the opening move done exactly and literally as it is done in the kata. The applications for the first move always involve Irimi and making the angle narrow while sliding into the gap supplied, to close in with the opponent. Also,as you probably know in the applications the blocks generally only occur while the arm is in its way to do something else. in the case of Pinan Shodan, I would compare the link between the first and second move as similar to the application to the move prior to the knee strike in Pinan Yodan, but with the addition of the dropping elbow from the right arm (notice I say elbow not fist!).

The first move of Pinan Yodan is best explained by Kumite Gata Ipponme.

Cheers


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## Deathtrap101 (May 15, 2003)

Ok, unless this has changed recently, these are the official Renshikan Grading Requirements up to first Kyu. Forgive any spelling errors.

Yellow-
Kihon Kata Ichi
Zenshin Kotei
Heian Nidan

study content: Te waza(also known under another name that is fleeting to me now. It's the 27 basic hand movements.) Kihon Dosa 1-4.

Orange-
Kihon ata Ni, 
Shi Ho Hai
Heian Shodan

SC: Ten Shin Happo
Empi-no-kata
Shime-no-kata
Kihon Keri 1&2

Green-
Shi Ho Wari
Seisan
Heian sandan

SC: Tenshin
Rohai Sho (Chito)
Kihon Keri 3
Tai Sabaki

Blue-
Kihon Kata San
 Nisei shi
Heian Yodan&Godan

SC:Kihon Bo 1-14
Kihon Bo Kata 1

Brown-
Bassai Dai(JKF)
Rohai(Chito)
Ju Go No Waza
Jion(Shito)

SC: Kihon Bo Kata 2
Kumi Bo
Rinten-Hanten


Now this is stuff i have on a paper, i left some of the stuff out that weren't kata's(kumite and bunkai stuff)(unless i mistakenly did because i didnt know it was something els)

I know the sequences for about 20 differant kata's listed and not listed on here.  But i only "Know" a few of them(dont quizz me on them). 

I am a certificated fourth kyu.


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## wadokai_indo (Mar 24, 2004)

In my Dojo, we mostly follow JKF-Wadokai syllabus, but we kind of keeping an open mind regarding the syllabus, so the Kata list are like this:

Canonical Kata:

Pinan Shodan, Nidan, Sandan, Yondan, Godan
Kushanku
Naihanchi
Seishan
Chinto

Deutero-Canonica:

Bassai
Rouhai
Wanshu
Niseishi
Jitte
Jion
Suparimpei

Pseudepigrapha/Apocryphal: (are supposed to have come from Otsuka sensei, but disputed. It is more like someone took these Kata from other style and change the movements to fit into Wado-style).

Unsu
Matsumura Rohai
Gojushiho

Paired Kata's created by Otsuka sensei himself:

Kumitegata 1-10 (some versions says 1-36)
Yakusoku Kihon Kumite 1-10

Paired Kata's derived from Shindo Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu:

Idori 1-5 (in other version 1-10)
Tantodori 1-7 (in other version 1-10)
Shinken Shirahadori 1-5

Lastly, these are supposed to be the Jujutsu techniques that WAS part of official Wado-ryu syllabus (when it was still known as Wado-ryu Jujutsu Kenpo):

Keisatsu Gijutsu (arresting techniques) 1-14
Fujin Goshinjutsu (women self-defense) 1-5
Tachiaigata (throwing Kata) 1-14

There is also Raitaidori (choking techniques?), Sakkatsu Jizaigata (saving and killing techniques) and other things listed in the official syllabus, but to this day we never learned it.

I think my website contains some videoclips of Otsuka sensei demonstrating Jujutsu, and also pictures of some Japanese shihans doing their thing. the text is mostly in Indonesian, unfortunately. But just have a go and click anywhere you like 

The URL is here www.geocities.com/wadokai_indonesia

Have fun trying!


Ben Haryo


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