# What would you do with an extra $6 / day?



## Steve (Jun 21, 2011)

I know that some of you guys are interested in energy independence and severing the tie to gas companies.  Looks like my wait is almost over.  I received a call from the dealer and my car arrived on a truck this morning.  I've made an appointment to pick it up tomorrow afternoon.  Woohoo!

Driving an EV will present some logistical challenges.  I won't have the  flexibility to just up and go anywhere I want.  I'll have to remain  aware of range and such, and am realistically looking at a limit of 65  to 80 miles per day travel.    I can also expect to get between 3 miles / kWh and 6 miles / kWh.  

I average about 50 miles per day driving in my car.  If I get 3 miles per kWh (which according to everything I've read, is an extremely conservative estimate) compared to a 25 MPG car, I stand to save $6 / day on gasoline.  What if you could reduce your daily auto cost from $8 to about $2?  What would you do with an extra $6 / day?  

I posted more about this on my leaf blog, including a table comparing costs of a 25 MPG car, a Volt and a Leaf using 3 m/kWh.  

http://www.smakl.com/leaf/?p=27

What do you think?


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## Carol (Jun 21, 2011)

I now have an extremely green vehicle as well!

Of course, the range on it is terrible....but I've been told that with use, the range will actually go up over time!   I hope it won't take too long to get this in to a usable range.

It handles poorly in bad weather, so I'm not getting rid of my SUV anytime soon.   But still, I'm happy to be going green and looking forward to the day when I can do a green commute.  


  






Biking the Mine Falls Park by Sikaranista, on Flickr


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## Steve (Jun 21, 2011)

Carol said:


> I now have an extremely green vehicle as well!
> 
> Of course, the range on it is terrible....but I've been told that with use, the range will actually go up over time!   I hope it won't take too long to get this in to a usable range.
> 
> ...


Sweet ride!  I've considered biking it, but the weather in the PNW would make it prohibitive!


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## granfire (Jun 21, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Sweet ride!  I've considered biking it, but the weather in the PNW would make it prohibitive!



At least blame it on the hills, not the weather!


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## rlobrecht (Jun 21, 2011)

I'd spend 6 or 7 years paying off the difference in cost between a $33k Leaf and my $18K Versa.

Rick


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## Steve (Jun 21, 2011)

rlobrecht said:


> I'd spend 6 or 7 years paying off the difference in cost between a $33k Leaf and my $18K Versa.
> 
> Rick


Yeah, that's a tough one.  The $7500 tax credit will help if you pay that much in taxes.

I've decided to lease this go around.  Works out to our advantage.  Because it's new technology, I'm expecting the batteries and just cars in general to be much better in 3 years.  Also, on a lease, the $7500 is taken off the top, so instead of financing a $33,000 car and getting some dough back next year when I file my taxes, I'm really leasing a $25,500 car.


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## billc (Jun 21, 2011)

Steve, are you buying new or used.  Did you hear about the dealerships selling used volts because they are taking the tax credits for themselves?

Is that 6 or 7 dollars before taxes?

Reading all of the limitations on the car you are about to buy makes me really like my fossil fuel mobile.  I'll take a look at the electric car thing when it is ready for the road I drive on.

The list of things you now have to be aware of reminds me of those drug commercials that list all of the things that could happen to you if you have a bad reaction to the drug.  Heart attack, stroke, diarreaha, insomnia, hallucinations....


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## Carol (Jun 21, 2011)

granfire said:


> At least blame it on the hills, not the weather!



Awwww....I was gonna blame the hills!  :lol:


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## jks9199 (Jun 21, 2011)

Biking to work is impractical for me because there are no sane & safe routes to cover a few key parts.


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## Steve (Jun 21, 2011)

billcihak said:


> Steve, are you buying new or used. Did you hear about the dealerships selling used volts because they are taking the tax credits for themselves?


Haven't heard about that.  That actually sounds illegal.  I'd be interested to read more about that, if you have a link.

I haven't decided 100% yet, but I'm strongly leaning toward a lease.  It's new tech and I don't want to get stuck with a worthless car in 3 years because battery technology has left the first generation in the dust.





> Is that 6 or 7 dollars before taxes?


It's after taxes based on what I actually pay for both gas and electricity, and I'm trying to lean toward the conservative side.  It's based on if I get only 3 m/kwh, which is what the EPA estimates the Leaf is good for.  Figures I've seen are closer to 5 m/kwh in real world driving for most people.





> Reading all of the limitations on the car you are about to buy makes me really like my fossil fuel mobile. I'll take a look at the electric car thing when it is ready for the road I drive on.


What kind of "road" do you drive on?  Serious question.  For some people, an EV just wouldn't work.  But it works for more people than you might think. 

How far is your commute?  Do you drive in extreme conditions very often?  If you don't know, do what I did and keep a daily log for a few weeks, or map out your regular routes on Google.  Most people don't drive nearly as far as they think.  





> The list of things you now have to be aware of reminds me of those drug commercials that list all of the things that could happen to you if you have a bad reaction to the drug. Heart attack, stroke, diarreaha, insomnia, hallucinations....


Yeah, except that the list of things I mentioned bear no resemblance to any of the things you mentioned.  But obviously it makes you feel better to try.  

I figure it's like when I got my Droid.  I pretty much know how to manage the battery so that I don't run out during the day, and I charge it every night.  While the battery doesn't last as long as my older, flip phones, it's worth the hassle to me for everything else it does.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 21, 2011)

That's two mochas without the tip.


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## rlobrecht (Jun 22, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I've decided to lease this go around.  Works out to our advantage.  Because it's new technology, I'm expecting the batteries and just cars in general to be much better in 3 years.  Also, on a lease, the $7500 is taken off the top, so instead of financing a $33,000 car and getting some dough back next year when I file my taxes, I'm really leasing a $25,500 car.



I think this is a smart plan.  The longevity of the batteries is still a big question mark for me.  I also didn't realize the tax credit was so high.

I'd love for my next car to be electric, but at this point the lifetime cost of an electric car is still too high compared to a similarly sized gasoline car.  I love seeing the "reports" which are comparing a Volt or a Leaf to a truck.

Steve, I'll definitely be looking for an update on your purchase in six months or so.

Rick


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2011)

rlobrecht said:


> I think this is a smart plan.  The longevity of the batteries is still a big question mark for me.  I also didn't realize the tax credit was so high.
> 
> I'd love for my next car to be electric, but at this point the lifetime cost of an electric car is still too high compared to a similarly sized gasoline car.  I love seeing the "reports" which are comparing a Volt or a Leaf to a truck.
> 
> ...


Sounds great.  I'll definitely keep you guys posted.  

One thing to remember about costs/expenses is that cars that have internal combustion engines, including hybrids still carry with them associated maintenance. The 'engine' in an EV is maintenance free.   Oil changes, transmission fluid, exhaust systems... there's an entire drive train that an EV doesn't have.  It boils down to battery maintenance, which is a bit of a question mark in spite of an 80,000 mile/10 year warranty, breaks about every 50k miles, tires, coolant/hoses to cool off the inverter...  and maybe wiper fluid.  This all adds up to about $300 per year saved, at least, in routine maintenance.


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## Carol (Jun 22, 2011)

Look forward to hearing how you like it!  Massachusetts had a special pilot program for electric cars the first time around (late 90s or something like that).   I had a chance to ride in one, and I loved it.  The car was so quiet and smooth...it was almost like a zen driving experience.  

My old bike was stolen out of my garage last year, shortly after I closed on my home.  I fixed the security issue with the garage, but I was a bit reluctant to get back in to biking, especially in a good sized city.  However there is a wonderful bike trail that goes from my town to a spot about 8-9 miles from my office that convinced me to start riding again.  I'd have to swing 8-9 miles of state road commute plus several miles on the rail trail...not an easy task, but its a goal


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 22, 2011)

I would not go as far as you did for $6/day but if possible I would go as far as Carol, since I have 2 bikes, but biking it 70 miles a day is just not going to happen



stevebjj said:


> I know that some of you guys are interested in energy independence and severing the tie to gas companies. Looks like my wait is almost over. I received a call from the dealer and my car arrived on a truck this morning. I've made an appointment to pick it up tomorrow afternoon. Woohoo!
> 
> Driving an EV will present some logistical challenges. I won't have the flexibility to just up and go anywhere I want. I'll have to remain aware of range and such, and am realistically looking at a limit of 65 to 80 miles per day travel. I can also expect to get between 3 miles / kWh and 6 miles / kWh.
> 
> ...


 
Logistics is a big issue with the leaf, range depneds on the weather and driving style



> a fully charged new battery has a range of 138 &#8211; 62 miles.


 
Start here then click "Basic" and you get more info. However Steve I am guessing you already have so this is for everyone else


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I would not go as far as you did for $6/day but if possible I would go as far as Carol, since I have 2 bikes, but biking it 70 miles a day is just not going to happen.
> 
> Logistics is a big issue with the leaf, range depneds on the weather and driving style
> 
> Start here then click "Basic" and you get more info. However Steve I am guessing you already have so this is for everyone else


Extreme weather is definitely a question mark.  I'm not overly concerned about that here.  In Seattle, while we see a lot of dreary days, our weather is really pretty mild.  We get a handful of days below freezing, and a handful of days above 95 F.  Other than that, we're typically between 50 and 80...  pretty moderate.

Driving style is definitely the big one for me.  The difference between 60MPH and 70MPH on the freeway is significant.  Driving 60, I can expect close to 4 miles per KWH, whereas driving at 70 gets me down to just over 3 m/kwh.   This translates into a loss of about 10 miles of range.

The real shift in thinking is that city driving is actually BETTER for range than freeway driving.  In other words, driving in stop and go city traffic at 35 mph is going to net me significantly greater range than driving non-stop at freeway speeds.  This is partly due to the increased drag on the car at high speeds, and partly due to the charging from the regenerative brakes.

FWIW, at 70 miles every day, you'd save closer to $9 in fuel if you got 3 miles/kwh vs 25 MPG.  Even in a Volt, you'd cut your fuel costs in half, and wouldn't have to worry about range anxiety.  

Here's a rule of thumb range chart posted on my blog (taken from the MyNissanLeaf.com forums) based on several months of real world driving:


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 22, 2011)

This is fundamentally flawed logic.  Fuel consumption is only one part of the equation.  It matters, but not that much.

The cost of driving includes the amortized cost of the vehicle, maintenance, fuel, and insurance, and recently, any government incentives or give-backs in the form of tax breaks or outright money.

Purchasing decisions are typically based on a number of valid considerations, including a desire to do the least harm possible to the environment ('green'), desirability of the car in question, options, accessories, fitness for purpose, retained value (not _'return on investment',_ since a car is a sunk cost and not an investment in general terms).

Purchasing decisions based primarily on gas mileage (or the equivalent cost in alternative fuel vehicles) are fundamentally flawed, unless the purpose is to _'be green'_ as opposed to _'save money'_.

My current daily-driver is a 1994 Mitsubishi Mirage sedan.  Purchased on eBay for $500 with 72,000 miles on it.  I've had to repair some systems on it, so my total outlay for purchase and repairs hovers around $1500 at the moment.  It gets approximately 30 MPG.  Insurance is liability-only and is inexpensive compared to the cost of full-coverage insurance that lenders require for financed vehicles.

In addition to simply not being able to finance a vehicle due to my credit rating and current finances, I can guarantee that my amortized cost per mile is lower than yours, by a lot.  My car has depreciated all it is going to; it would be worth $500 as a charitable donation if it came to that.

So the real question is - what do you want?  I can't argue if the goal is to 'go green' and you've figured out that this is the best way to do that.  In my case, the goal is 'cost per mile', and my solution is working very well for me.

Of course, having a car approaching 100K miles with no warranty on it, I do carry a AAA card with me...so there is some downside...

On a more general note, I am concerned with recent noises being made about forcing people to 'go green' with alternative-fuel vehicles.  Not all of us can afford - or even qualify - for loans to purchase new vehicles.  In my case, I'm actually going to be forbidden by court order to incur new debt.  I think well-meaning greenies are not stopping to consider that some of us cannot afford new cars, even with government give-backs, incentives, or tax breaks.  If it means incurring debt, then the answer for me (and many others) is 'no'.  Sorry, love to help ya, but I'll be driving the clunker I can afford, thanks.  Buy me a car and we'll talk.


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> This is fundamentally flawed logic.  Fuel consumption is only one part of the equation.  It matters, but not that much.
> 
> The cost of driving includes the amortized cost of the vehicle, maintenance, fuel, and insurance, and recently, any government incentives or give-backs in the form of tax breaks or outright money.
> 
> ...


Great post, Bill, and I hope I don't come off as a "greenie" whose agenda includes forcing people to incur debt.  

I also think it's very important to draw a clear distinction between budget and "green."  The chart I linked is actually in a post where I outline my top reasons for deciding to take the plunge.  The reasons are more fully explained on the blog, but they amount to the following, in order:  

*Energy Independence* 
*Generalized Anger with big oil* 
*Monthly Household Budget* 
*Its neat* 
*Tax incentives* 
*Its Green*

Green is on the list, but isn't even in the top five for me.  

But, more to your points, if budget is one's only concern, my first recommendation would be to purchase a late model Metro in excellent condition for under $3000.  

The situation I have in mind is, I think, pretty common.  Someone who has a regular car payment and is in a situation where buying (or leasing) a new car is a viable option.    I'd like to also point out that I haven't at any point talked about time-frames.  While the tech is relatively new for mass production, in 10 years, there will be 10 year old Nissan Leafs along with Focus EVs etc.  You might be able to find one for a couple thousand bucks, and by then we might be paying $10/gallon.

FWIW, maintenance will be lower, and my insurance will go up by about $8 / six months, largely as a result of it being new.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jun 22, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> But, more to your points, if budget is one's only concern, my first recommendation would be to purchase a late model Metro in excellent condition for under $3000.



I considered Metro's.  They have a problem with a-frame rusting, especially up here, and when they rust through, they cannot be repaired, due to design deficiencies.

There are actually quite a few small, medium, and large sedans that got decent mileage in the 1990's, some even with larger engines and plenty of power and amenities.

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byclass.htm

Amortized costs are low for 1990's era vehicles now; they have largely depreciated as much as they are going to, and if purchased with fewer than 100,000 miles (which can be a trick, but do-able), proper maintenance should keep them going at least another 50K and perhaps longer.  Insurance is cheaper on the bigger older cars, which can work to offset lower MPG in some cases, as they are seldom stolen and tend to safer due not to good design but to size.



> The situation I have in mind is, I think, pretty common.  Someone who has a regular car payment and is in a situation where buying (or leasing) a new car is a viable option.    I'd like to also point out that I haven't at any point talked about time-frames.  While the tech is relatively new for mass production, in 10 years, there will be 10 year old Nissan Leafs along with Focus EVs etc.  You might be able to find one for a couple thousand bucks, and by then we might be paying $10/gallon.
> 
> FWIW, maintenance will be lower, and my insurance will go up by about $8 / six months, largely as a result of it being new.



Don't disagree, but as many argue, there are variables that are not yet controlled for.  We do not know what alternative-fuel vehicles will be like in 10 years; this is not a mature technology on the market.  Consider steam cars.  All the rage, for awhile.  Also, electric and hybrid vehicles are being mandated to some extent; the market is not exactly lining up for them.  It remains to be seen what replacement batteries are going to be like in terms of availability and price - we have estimates, but no track record to back that up.

We also have to consider fitness for use.  In addition to my beater, I have a big 4WD SUV.  When the weather turns bad here, I need it to get to work.  Your car would not make it through 2 foot snow drifts, so it's not fit for use in our winters.  I regularly go offroad for my photography; again something to consider in a vehicle.  Roads here in Michigan are notorious for tearing small cars to pieces.  And some folks routinely drive farther than the typical range for an all-electric vehicle (not me, but it happens).

So your solution would not doubt work for many, but not for everyone, and I do think you're making a couple of fairly rosy assumptions about the future for alternative-fuel vehicles.  We really don't know what's going to happen yet; there isn't even a trend line.


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## Steve (Jun 22, 2011)

Thanks, Bill.  



> So your solution would not doubt work for many, but not for everyone,


I don't think we're saying too many things that are at odds.  Largely, I agree with you and don't think that anything I've said suggests otherwise.  

The only comment I'd make is to point out that no one car works for everyone.


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## Carol (Jun 22, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I would not go as far as you did for $6/day but if possible I would go as far as Carol, since I have 2 bikes, but biking it 70 miles a day is just not going to happen



The cool thing about biking is that it doesn't have to be door to door.  I'm starting by driving to a spot a few miles away from the office, and then biking the rest of the way.  I'll then gradually increase the distance as I get stronger.

I don't think I will ever bike door-to-door.  In addition to the distance involved, the road that my complex is on is a very fast highway and not at all bike-friendly.  But if I can ever get to the point where I can bike from the trail to my office (and back...) a few days a week, I will be very happy


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## Flea (Jun 23, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I won't have the  flexibility to just up and go anywhere I want.  I'll have to remain  aware of range and such,



Which sounds a lot like being a bus commuter.  :uhyeah:  Except that you're not on an arbitrary schedule.  In terms of range, you could always rent a SUV if you wanted to do a road trip into the hinterlands.  Nothing wrong with that.



> What would you do with an extra $6 / day?



Make car payments.  :whip1:  Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2012)

Just hit 8000 miles and thought I'd give you guys an update.

So far, the LEAF is performing very well, although it's not without it's quirks.

Over 8,000 miles, I've been averaging $40/month in electricity.  That's about $280 total for 8000 miles.
To drive that in my old car at 20 mpg and about $3.50/gallon for the gas, I would've been looking at around $1400.  So, total savings so far is just over $1100... give or take a few bucks.

At this rate, presuming gas prices don't rise, I'll have saved over $15,000 in 10 years just on fuel.  That's... significant, and the savings will just compound as gas prices rise.   10 years is when the batteries go out from warranty, so I'll have to make a decision then.

The car averaged about 4.7 miles/kwh in the summer time when the temperature was over 60F.  Range dropped to about 3.2 miles/kwh as the temperature dropped consistently between 30 and 40F.  That's reduced my reliable range from between 90 to 110 miles on a charge down to between 65 and 80 miles.  Still plenty for me, but I know that would be a problem for many.

Another little thing is that the stock wiper blades were junk.  In the Seattle area, we get plenty of rain, and the blades were failing me within just a few months.  Not a big deal, but irritating.  I expect at least a year out of my wiper blades.

The car itself is fun to drive, but frankly, the insecurity and rudeness of other drivers is getting old.  I am routinely crowded on the freeway by pickups and SUVs.  I get an occasional finger from a guy in a muscle car.  Always guys.  As I said, I chalk it up to insecurity and guilt.  I mean, why do I care what you're driving unless it makes me feel bad about what I'm driving?  Ultimately, it's just lame. 

Not intended to be a political post. Just information.  Bottom line, I still pinch myself when I think about how much money I'm NOT spending on gas.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2012)

considering that here in poor peple country the gas is over 3.60 atm, you are doing well.

(why does the temperature affect the range so much?)


Oh...I don't think you need to worry about the warranty in 10 years...though I am driving a 20+ year old care, I think most cars don't live that long.


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2012)

granfire said:


> considering that here in poor peple country the gas is over 3.60 atm, you are doing well.
> 
> (why does the temperature affect the range so much?)
> 
> ...


The temperature affects the battery charge.  Colder means quicker discharge.

As for the 10 year thing, the electric motor is maintenance free and it's rated for some ridiculous large amount of miles.  The brakes should last me a good 100,000 miles at least.

Other than the wiper blades and tires, the only real maintenance requirement will be the batteries.  So, it's really not unreasonable to expect this car to last me a long, long while.  As I said, I am 90% sure I'll buy out the residual and keep this car, and I'll make a decision at 10 years whether to keep it or upgrade.


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## granfire (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, I am considering you don't live in the snow free south, you might encounter some structural damage from salt before then.


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## Steve (Feb 28, 2012)

Lol....  Not in Seattle.  


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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