# lack of serious martial artists



## J. Pickard (Jun 29, 2021)

Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2021)

I think you need to create a reason for people to try.


----------



## dunc (Jun 29, 2021)

Hi
I'm sorry to say that I don't see this at all
In my experience people enjoy a combination of hard, safe training and socialising 
Probably there is a way to introduce harder training to folk over time and encourage folk to develop rather than throwing them into the shark tank on day 1 and seeing who survives
And I think there's a need to sync up the culture that one creates as an instructor and the marketing


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2021)

I think the words serious and effort would have to be defined in order to have a fruitful discussion about this. Otherwise what you consider serious may be living and breathing karate to the point of living in the dojo, drop bear might think it's becoming competition ready, and someone else might think it's training 4 hours a week, but going full throttle all four hours.

I do think that there's a culture aspect though, regardless of the definition. Newer students will take their cue from the older students on how seriously to take it. And how you market the class impacts it as well.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jun 29, 2021)

Its probbly best, as drop bear put it, give them a reason to try.      Its not like they get any qualifications there, they could be there for more than the fighting part of it.   A lot of people dont have fighting ability as the no1 in their checklist, if they do that type of person doesnt tend to do TMA (although that depends on their no2 and what TMA it is)

I will just re enthisise here, they dont get any qualifications from it, probbly go there for fun and to get out for the evening, probbly go there to get fit or stay fit and active, and probbly have no desire or need to attempt to learn how to tear a mans heart out through their mouth.  This is also taking it at face value that they are "half arsing it" and not just regulating their energy correctly, and throwing out interprational issues.

You could maybe try and host a competition of some description to give a incentive or sign your school up for one, or convicne who ever has the power to do those.     That tends to incentivise people as there is some tangible reward at the end even if its just bragging rights.  Although you might want people who half **** it after you have dealt with the overly competitve and 200% each time they do anything crowd.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


For starters, know that nearly any hobby (and for most of us it is a hobby) has a high turnover rate in the first few months. Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned. Others find it somehow interferes with some higher priority. Others find it's just not as satisfying as they'd expected. And yes, some just find it's harder than they thought, or that they aren't as able as they thought. Again, that's true of pretty much any new pursuit - most of the folks who start it won't go far. Martial arts is no exception.

That said, there should be folks who stick. If you're not getting the right people walking in the door, something in your marketing isn't working. If you're not marketing, you're just accepting whatever comes in by luck (which was my practice, because mostly the right people were showing up in small numbers without much marketing).

If folks are doing things halfway, look at the group. Is it everyone? If not, push those who respond well to pushing to raise the average effort (most folks respond to group norms, so raising the average will nudge most people). If it is everyone, somehow you've ended up with a culture of half effort, and it'll take a long time to change. If you're wanting ONLY folks who work really hard, you have to accept that means pushing until the rest either change or leave. Which, if you're trying to pay bills (even if it's just for the training space) may have negative consequences.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I do think that there's a culture aspect though, regardless of the definition. Newer students will take their cue from the older students on how seriously to take it. And how you market the class impacts it as well.


This is a big factor. Instructors have to look at themselves and how they influence the group. When I get into technical stuff, I tend to talk. A lot. Sometimes way too much. If I do that with new students in the room, I start setting a norm for them that the pace of work in the dojo is slow and kinda talky. (I can get away with it a bit more with students who've been around a while, as they already have the norm that there are periods of intense activity and periods of listening to me flap my gums.) So, with new folks in the room, I have to temper my tendency to explain, and just push to the activity as much as possible.


----------



## MadMartigan (Jun 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> And I think there's a need to sync up the culture that one creates as an instructor and the marketing


This is both the problem and the answer I suspect (something I'm also working on solving for myself). When you become known for having a quality kids program; it's very difficult to get the serious adult crowd to see you as anything but a kids activity. You then end up with the parents of your kid students, who are likely looking for something similar to what they've seen their kid doing.

The serious adult students are all flocking to Muay Thai and BJJ it seems (why not, they're great arts). The trick for us TMA people is building a reputation of real adult oriented classes. How do you do that without the adults in the class already? Still working on that; but I figure we have to grow them from the younger classes and keep them into adulthood. Then one day new serious minded adults will see the benefits and start joining up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2021)

D Hall said:


> This is both the problem and the answer I suspect (something I'm also working on solving for myself). When you become known for having a quality kids program; it's very difficult to get the serious adult crowd to see you as anything but a kids activity. You then end up with the parents of your kid students, who are likely looking for something similar to what they've seen their kid doing.
> 
> The serious adult students are all flocking to Muay Thai and BJJ it seems (why not, they're great arts). The trick for us TMA people is building a reputation of real adult oriented classes. How do you do that without the adults in the class already? Still working on that; but I figure we have to grow them from the younger classes and keep them into adulthood. Then one day new serious minded adults will see the benefits and start joining up.


You beat me to it.  

I agree with this, I think a problem may be the kids class.  The school may simply be seen as a “kids school” where it is a martial-inspired daycare program.  Those adults seeking a higher level of training don’t see past that and they look elsewhere for serious training.  

I understand the need for the kids classes to pay the bills.  But it may handicap the development of all other training.


----------



## dunc (Jun 29, 2021)

Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train


----------



## MadMartigan (Jun 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train


A very good/fair point. 
While there's certainly a level of 'flavor of the month' with BJJ + all the good press it gets from MMA; clearly they're doing something right in many cases. 

TMA is also a slower process, and often involves things like uniforms, asian language memorization, and patterns (which the average North American has been taught from MMA commentators is useless). With the current culture of quick results and utilitarianism, it's an uphill battle.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


It's probably your marking that is having that effect.  I would start there so you can attract the type of people you want.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You beat me to it.
> 
> I agree with this, I think a problem may be the kids class.  The school may simply be seen as a “kids school” where it is a martial-inspired daycare program.  Those adults seeking a higher level of training don’t see past that and they look elsewhere for serious training.
> 
> I understand the need for the kids classes to pay the bills.  But it may handicap the development of all other training.


I've seen this go both ways, within the same school. The place I trained most of my NGA life always had a kids' program. For a long time, it was a feeder for the adult program, which was pretty energetic (helped partly by the steady, slow stream of already trained teens).

Then the instructor opened things up to younger kids - ages kept going down (from 10, to 8, to 6). About the same time, the adult classes started getting thinner (probably the reason he was opening up to more kids) and less intense. I don't know if the added (and younger) kids classes added to the situation or not, but the school remains softer and slower than I remember it being.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train


I think there's a couple of parts to that. First, the art is probably more recognized (by name) than most other MA, among the general public. Secondly, it has a good reputation (mostly well earned). Thirdly, their classes tend to be pretty energetic (rolling is pretty exhausting for new folks, even if they go easy), and this is easy to see when folks look at it. So folks who aren't interested in working aren't very likely to sign up. This makes it easier to keep an energetic norm, which attracts the kind of folks who want that energetic norm.

And BJJ can be a lot of fun, and who doesn't want that?


----------



## J. Pickard (Jun 29, 2021)

Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.


----------



## drop bear (Jun 29, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
> I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.



I keep mentioning this school because they are a karate school. And have no issues with training hard, having dedicated students or creating capable martial artists.



			Fitzroy Martial Arts | Fitzroy Fitness
		


So Mabye there is something in that you can draw from.


----------



## MetalBoar (Jun 29, 2021)

dunc said:


> Perhaps that's the case, but again most BJJ academies offer kids classes, but don't have a problem with finding serious adults to train


That may be true but I suspect it depends a lot on how they advertise. I've been looking at schools a lot, having recently moved to a new city and it's been mostly online so I only see what they put on their website. I've got enough options that if the website doesn't present the kind of school I want to train in it doesn't make the list of places I intend to call. There's one BJJ place near me that has a very reputable instructor but his website puts a heavy emphasis on their kids classes and it appears to be their big focus. I'm not going to bother calling them even though they might have a fantastic adults program because they don't present themselves that way.



J. Pickard said:


> Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
> I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.


When I read this I wonder about your website and other forms of advertising. I've been interested in traditional Okinawan karate for a while and to a lesser degree traditional TKD. Almost all the karate and TKD web sites I visit put a huge focus on their kids classes and the fitness benefits an adult can expect. There's nothing wrong with that but when I see a site like that the feeling I get is that it's the karate equivalent of the boxercise (Get fit! You won't get hit!) places I've seen popping up all over with the addition of after school baby sitting. Since I want to train in a real martial art that doesn't speak to me and I move on to the next school's web page without digging any deeper. It may be that a lot of other people who want to do a real martial art do too.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 29, 2021)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's probably your marking that is having that effect.  I would start there so you can attract the type of people you want.


This should read.  "It's probably your marketing ...."


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jun 29, 2021)

I think most comments are on point but I will be a little more blunt.
The instructor/ leader sets the pace and the culture of the group. Be it a karate school or in any business. If your group is not developing the desired culture look no further than the leader. While marketing is important its not the cause of poor culture. Incorrect marketing will cause a drop in sales due to a mis- match between what was advertised and what is actually presented.
I would guess there were a few first students and rather than setting the expectations and the culture of hard work the instructor gave in and let things be very laid back and soft, out of fear of losing those few students. This is very common. To set a serious culture you need to screen those first students for the ones that exhibit the desired work ethic and be willing to let all the others hit the pavement.
I would also add that when those serious students did show up, they saw the pace and lack of intensity and turned around and walked.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think most comments are on point but I will be a little more blunt.
> The instructor/ leader sets the pace and the culture of the group. Be it a karate school or in any business. If your group is not developing the desired culture look no further than the leader. While marketing is important its not the cause of poor culture. Incorrect marketing will cause a drop in sales due to a mis- match between what was advertised and what is actually presented.
> I would guess there were a few first students and rather than setting the expectations and the culture of hard work the instructor gave in and let things be very laid back and soft, out of fear of losing those few students. This is very common. To set a serious culture you need to screen those first students for the ones that exhibit the desired work ethic and be willing to let all the others hit the pavement.
> I would also add that when those serious students did show up, they saw the pace and lack of intensity and turned around and walked.


And I'd add to this: remember that the right people (given you're looking for people who stick around and continue to work hard) will be happy to be pushed kinda hard from the beginning. My students hated mountain climbers and burpees and push-ups. They groaned about them nearly every time I called for them. But they did them. Why? Because I hated them, groaned about them, and did them anyway. I did the exercises with them and went harder than anyone else (unless I had a new student I was helping with the exercises).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Our Kids classes used to be a smaller part of our school but over the past 3 years became the biggest part without trying. Our kickboxing class does great too but that is marketed purely for fitness. When I say serious I don't mean live in the dojo type of thing, I just mean that you are giving it your all and actually trying to improve. This usually isn't a problem with beginners, but as they go up in rank they seem to try less. I have about 5 or 6 serious adult students that have been with me any where from 2 to 8 years but we seem to only be able to keep most adults around for 6 months to a year. I often wonder it location is part of it since the majority of work in my town is manual labor, but that wouldn't explain why our kickboxing class does so well. There is a BJJ school in town that I train at a few times a week and even their adult classes only have about 6 on the mat at any given time, while their kids class has about 25 at any given time.
> I think what gpseymour said is pretty accurate, Time commitments are hard to shift, and habits hard to alter, so some folks get started then find it's too difficult keeping the schedule they planned.


The way you describe the problem here, they sound uninspired, and maybe bored. I might be off, but consider what they are working on at that point in their training. Does it get more technical and less physical at that point? Is there a sharp drop-off in new stuff to work on? Are they spending too much time working on what the lower belts need, so they're not getting to work on what they need to progress?


----------



## Buka (Jun 30, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> That may be true but I suspect it depends a lot on how they advertise. I've been looking at schools a lot, having recently moved to a new city and it's been mostly online so I only see what they put on their website. I've got enough options that if the website doesn't present the kind of school I want to train in it doesn't make the list of places I intend to call. There's one BJJ place near me that has a very reputable instructor but his website puts a heavy emphasis on their kids classes and it appears to be their big focus. I'm not going to bother calling them even though they might have a fantastic adults program because they don't present themselves that way.
> 
> 
> When I read this I wonder about your website and other forms of advertising. I've been interested in traditional Okinawan karate for a while and to a lesser degree traditional TKD. Almost all the karate and TKD web sites I visit put a huge focus on their kids classes and the fitness benefits an adult can expect. There's nothing wrong with that but when I see a site like that the feeling I get is that it's the karate equivalent of the boxercise (Get fit! You won't get hit!) places I've seen popping up all over with the addition of after school baby sitting. Since I want to train in a real martial art that doesn't speak to me and I move on to the next school's web page without digging any deeper. It may be that a lot of other people who want to do a real martial art do too.


Maybe consider....dojos open and close as much, or even more, than restaurants. The kids classes often pay the bills. The number one goal of a dojo isn't really teaching quality Martial Arts, it's staying open so it_ can_ teach quality Martial Arts. It's a seriously tough racket running a Martial Arts school.

Maybe go check them out. Might be really good. Might even be great. Spend a couple nights watching. Watcha' got to lose? Might even be fun.


----------



## MetalBoar (Jun 30, 2021)

Buka said:


> Maybe consider....dojos open and close as much, or even more, than restaurants. The kids classes often pay the bills. The number one goal of a dojo isn't really teaching quality Martial Arts, it's staying open so it_ can_ teach quality Martial Arts. It's a seriously tough racket running a Martial Arts school.
> 
> Maybe go check them out. Might be really good. Might even be great. Spend a couple nights watching. Watcha' got to lose? Might even be fun.


Buka, I sincerely love your positive attitude and the joy you have for martial arts. I hear what you're saying here and re-reading my post I think it could come off as negative and could be offensive to school owners who want to teach quality martial arts to adults as well as kids and are doing what they can to keep afloat and I'm not trying to do that. As the owner of a small strength training gym I understand that it's hard to keep something like a martial arts school going.

I also know that your average MA instructor doesn't have the skills nor money to create a great website nor write quality ad copy and that they're frequently using the same template that some company must be selling because I've seen it or ones that are very similar in at least 3 different states for dozens of different schools and a number of different arts. If they hire some web dev company and can only afford their lowest end services or pay for a generic site and fill out a couple of forms and upload a couple of pictures they aren't going to be able to differentiate themselves from all the other schools doing the same thing. I know that almost no one teaching MA is going to be able to do top notch SEO and frequently not even adequate SEO - by accident I just found a website for a local Shorin Ryu school that looks pretty good and there is absolutely no way to find it just by searching for Shorin Ryu or Okinawan Karate or martial arts school unless maybe you're willing to go 30+ pages deep in search results. I get that dismissing a school on these grounds isn't maybe fair and that I'm almost certainly missing schools where I'd enjoy training.

All that being said, the frustration your hear in my post comes from more than one past experience where I've gone and watched classes at a school and it's been obvious that the extent of their adult program is a few parents wanting to be involved with their kids and get in shape without any real interest in martial arts. I'm not being facetious when I say that I think it's great that parents want to be involved with their kids lives enough to go do martial arts with them and I think it's equally great that they're doing something to improve their fitness. As someone who doesn't have kids and generally has different ideas about fitness and who would rather be doing martial arts than golfing or watching TV I just don't feel like I'd fit in with that crowd.

If I were living in a smaller town where there were less than 20 martial arts schools to choose from I'm probably go look at them all. As it is there are over 20 BJJ schools alone within a 30 minute drive of my house and a Google maps search shows a similar number of schools that pop up with the search term "karate", though it doesn't look like those are all actually specifically karate schools. That's not counting the Wing Chun, Tai Chi, Aikido, Judo, Muay Thai, FMA, Wu Shu, Capoeira, boxing, fencing, etc. schools in the area. I've got to filter in some fashion because I'm not going to have time to look at 100+ schools and I know it's very likely I'll find a great place in fewer than 20 schools. 

If a web site doesn't tell me anything about the instructor or the art they're teaching I'm probably going to give it a pass unless it looks special in some other way. If a web site looks like it's targeted at the fitness crowd I'm going to give it a pass unless it looks special in some other way. If a web site looks like it's targeted at kids classes I'm going to give it a pass unless it looks special in some other way. If it looks like it's peddling no touch knockouts I'm going to give it a pass pretty much no matter how special it looks in some other way. If it's a boxing gym that looks like it's focused on producing pro fighters I may be interested but I'm also going to have a lot of reservations about whether they will want to work with me at my age or just take my money and tell me to go jump rope. Even using all of these filters and excluding the pro boxing gyms I've got more than 20 schools to consider within a reasonable driving distance and that was more or less true in the previous 2 cities that I lived in. 

If someone is running a school that's focused on kids classes but they'd like to have a serious adults martial arts program I think they need to call it out on their web site and in their advertising so that people who are looking for a serious martial arts program don't just filter them out with the rest of the noise. The majority of karate and TKD schools near me don't do much of anything to make themselves look like anything other than after school daycare and the exceptions, and there are exceptions, are the places I'm going to look at first. Since so few places do a good job of this I think it's an important question to ask the OP how he represents his school in his marketing. I also agree that some of my own personal frustrations probably made my post sound pretty negative and that wasn't helpful.

Cheers!


----------



## Buka (Jul 2, 2021)

MetalBoar said:


> Buka, I sincerely love your positive attitude and the joy you have for martial arts. I hear what you're saying here and re-reading my post I think it could come off as negative and could be offensive to school owners who want to teach quality martial arts to adults as well as kids and are doing what they can to keep afloat and I'm not trying to do that. As the owner of a small strength training gym I understand that it's hard to keep something like a martial arts school going.
> 
> I also know that your average MA instructor doesn't have the skills nor money to create a great website nor write quality ad copy and that they're frequently using the same template that some company must be selling because I've seen it or ones that are very similar in at least 3 different states for dozens of different schools and a number of different arts. If they hire some web dev company and can only afford their lowest end services or pay for a generic site and fill out a couple of forms and upload a couple of pictures they aren't going to be able to differentiate themselves from all the other schools doing the same thing. I know that almost no one teaching MA is going to be able to do top notch SEO and frequently not even adequate SEO - by accident I just found a website for a local Shorin Ryu school that looks pretty good and there is absolutely no way to find it just by searching for Shorin Ryu or Okinawan Karate or martial arts school unless maybe you're willing to go 30+ pages deep in search results. I get that dismissing a school on these grounds isn't maybe fair and that I'm almost certainly missing schools where I'd enjoy training.
> 
> ...


Wow. And that "wow" is meant as a sincere and heart felt compliment.

It didn't come off as negative to me. I feel the same frustrations that you do, bro, especially these days. If I was running a dojo now, especially a commercial one, I'd either have to hire a really good web page guy to get my point and thoughts across on my dojo - or get one of the young students in the school to do it.

I'm on the internet a lot, reading up on my sports teams, gabbing with my buddies, and talking with all the crazy people like us here on our forum. 

But I don't know caca from tunafish when it comes to making a Web page. And I suppose that's a must these days for a commercial dojo.

Like you, I don't have kids, either. When I was seven or eight years old, I told my parents I wasn't going to have kids. They told me I'd probably change my mind, but I never did. I have plenty of nieces and nephews, and that's just fine with me. I've taught a ton of kids, and then taught some of their kids, and taught a few of their grandkids as well.

Years ago a dad and his two boys, ages 12 and 14, joined our dojo. His boys, nice kids, lasted three or four years, but pops lasted forever. And training came difficult for him. But he loved it.

I think it's wonderful you have so many dojos within a reasonable travel distance to you. And makes me realize how time consuming it would be to spend a couple of nights watching in each one of them. Also makes me realize how important each one of them having a good Web page is.

Let me know how your search for a dojo goes. I'd like to hear how it all shakes out.

And like I said at the open of this message. Wow.


Rock on, brother.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 2, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


People train for different reasons and the instructor establishes the training culture for the class. Training cultures vary in focus and energy/vibes. For example, my Kali class keeps things loose and informal, but my kickboxing class is very strict and regimented. I don't believe either one is wrong, but they both provide a different flavor of training. It sounds that you want a more serious training culture than what you have. You could speak to the students about some of the issues you've seen and implement the standards you want your class to rise to. Just be aware your class size might decrease when you implement higher standards.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 3, 2021)

Anarax said:


> the instructor establishes the training culture for the class.


How true.  But if you take out the word "training," it becomes even more true.  (I going to take this thread off in a different direction here and talk about the bigger picture.  Forgive my ruminations.)

 Whether the training is formal or informal, severe or less so, isn't the bottom line.  It's the culture of mutual respect, knowing the instructor is interested in you and having the goal of bringing out the best in you.  The instructor sets the stage of just what the school means to the students.  Is it simply a place to work out like Planet Fitness, or a place to learn how to fight like the corner boxing gym - or is it more?

Is it a place to leave everything outside the doors and be a part of something transformational, a place to challenge yourself of many levels?  MA leads one to introspection as to who they are and what they can be. Knowing that when they walk (limp) out of class, they are a little bit better for it.  They've faced a fear, withstood some pain, became stronger and more confident, learned to see and think differently, developed discipline and learned respect.   The overall culture established by the best instructors provide the physical and emotional environment for these things to happen and the students to gradually mold themselves.

We all like to feel good about ourselves, not in the self-delusional way, but in a demonstrable way as described above.  The teacher need not be a psychologist or social engineer, or even highly charismatic to encourage such development.  Loyal, obligated to and interested in his students, a strong confident, yet humble demeanor, competent in the art, and working to help them advance themselves.   Students are perceptive of such things and will not want to let their instructor down.  These things, and the art itself, will provide a strong dojo culture and make it into a place the students want to be a part of.  Students aren't just revenue, they're _assets_.

People may join a dojo for many reasons, but the most valuable thing they receive may be something they did not go there to find.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 4, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally?


When I was in high school, my CMA class started with almost 100 students (from my year). At the end of that year, there were about 50 left. After 3 years, there were about 20 left.

The MA drop off rate was high when I was young too. That was about 60 years ago.


----------



## Anarax (Jul 4, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> How true.  But if you take out the word "training," it becomes even more true.  (I going to take this thread off in a different direction here and talk about the bigger picture.  Forgive my ruminations.)
> 
> Whether the training is formal or informal, severe or less so, isn't the bottom line.  It's the culture of mutual respect, knowing the instructor is interested in you and having the goal of bringing out the best in you.  The instructor sets the stage of just what the school means to the students.  Is it simply a place to work out like Planet Fitness, or a place to learn how to fight like the corner boxing gym - or is it more?
> 
> ...


I agree that a culture of mutual respect is neccessary for productive training. We covered this in another thread of the breakdown of the percent of responsiblity between student and instructor. 

I've experienced several instructors that showed little or no respect towards their students. Instructors not showing up multiple times to practice without communicating it to the students to slapping their students in the face. Mutual respect and investing in your students development is vital. 

However, there are students that show very little to no interest in training even when the instructor is making it engaging. I'm a proponent of most people can learn mostly anything, but there are still limitations. There are various reasons, outside of ineffective instructors, that students don't apply themselves in training. When I taught I made training engaging and encouraged my students. However, I had several students that wouldn't listen and were disinterested in applying themselves. Most instructors have limited time and personally I want to use my time as effectively as possible. It goes back to the training culture/culture the instructor sets. Knowing what that is or what you want that to be for your school will help set the standards you hold your students to.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 4, 2021)

Anarax said:


> I had several students that wouldn't listen and were disinterested in applying themselves. Most instructors have limited time and personally I want to use my time as effectively as possible.


It's disappointing to see a student squander the opportunity an instructor offers.  We know what he's missing, but you can't teach someone who doesn't want to learn.  And, as you say, our time in valuable.

You don't mention in your post whether these disinterested students are kids, who may have little choice in being in class (which I won't address here), or older students who are paying money to be there.  If they're disinterested, why are they there, wasting their money?  But if you own a dojo, money is definitely important to _you_.  However, is keeping such a student worth it?

Dead weight is harmful.  Apathy can spread.  Tolerating it can show weakness in front of the other students, showing you are willing to lower your expectations and thus lower your own esteem as an instructor.  Better for all to get rid of the disinterested and unmotivated.  An instructor has an absolute right to decide with whom he will share his knowledge and experience.

If unwilling to directly dismiss these students, there are other ways to encourage them to leave.  Perhaps some sparring may help.  It's hard to be disinterested when someone is throwing kicks and punches at you or tossing you onto the mat.  Such activity may help the student decide just how motivated he is.

The best way is to sit that student down, look him right in the eye, and just ask him, "Why the heck are you here?" This may be a question the student has not honestly and seriously asked himself.  The answer may be revealing, not only to you, but the student as well.  No matter the answer, the proper action to take will be clear.


----------



## Blindside (Jul 4, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?



I am not saying it has been easy but I keep a fairly consistent training group of about 10 people,  currently my youngest student is 26, the average is probably 35.  I don't force people to spar but we try not to make sparring a big deal, and it is just part of training, we seldom have people not spar. 

 What age group is your adult class?  Is the training the kids receive in their class not preparing them for the adult class?  Or is the intent of the adult class so different from the kids class that it doesn't meet their interests?


----------



## C Sal (Jul 6, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?



I do see sometimes, but it doesn't happen all the time. We have one particular student, she's in her 50s. She's kinda a bad apple. When she goes to class, we have to slow and dumb things down for her, even though she's been practising for more than 10 years. Like I said though, it doesn't happen all the time.


----------



## Argus (Jul 6, 2021)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think most comments are on point but I will be a little more blunt.
> The instructor/ leader sets the pace and the culture of the group. Be it a karate school or in any business. If your group is not developing the desired culture look no further than the leader. While marketing is important its not the cause of poor culture. Incorrect marketing will cause a drop in sales due to a mis- match between what was advertised and what is actually presented.
> I would guess there were a few first students and rather than setting the expectations and the culture of hard work the instructor gave in and let things be very laid back and soft, out of fear of losing those few students. This is very common. To set a serious culture you need to screen those first students for the ones that exhibit the desired work ethic and be willing to let all the others hit the pavement.
> I would also add that when those serious students did show up, they saw the pace and lack of intensity and turned around and walked.



These are good points.

I've never run a school or business proper, but I have lead small practice groups and many online communities.
They've all been a mixture of emergent culture, as well as culture set by the people at the top. You'll learn a lot about yourself and the culture that your actions create or discourage, enable or disable, based on your actions or lack thereof.

Generally, I think the most serious martial artists will seek out instructors who also appear to be serious and make that approach, and their presence, known. I do a lot of research, and often rely on word of mouth as well to locate good instructors.

There are a lot of serious TMA guys out there, too. I find particularly good luck with people and groups involved in Chinese and Filipino Martial Arts, though I've certainly met serious Karate practitioners and the like. You might consider cross training in something along those lines to network with like minded martial artists, and get to know and train with them personally. Then, perhaps make and share videos of your serious, backyard training. That is the kind of thing that I like to find when I'm looking for a teacher.

My best teacher of all was a prominent FMA instructor who I trained with in his back yard. The training was intense, and I could only make it out there once a month or so, but it was exactly what I was looking for. I'd still be training with him if I had the time and money to travel to the U.S.

I think this is the sort of thing that serious martial artists and adults are looking for. Ranks, uniforms, none of that matters. Just get out there and find people to train with yourself, privately.

Go attend seminars, too. Seek out people who *you* want to train with and learn from, and you'll find like minded people. This is another thing that I look for: I like to learn from people who are, themselves, constantly learning and seeking out training themselves. If you want to add more value, import it locally! There are tons of people who want to train X system or with X instructor. If they can't, typically due to distance, but you can, that's another way you can create value.


----------



## zenfrog (Jul 7, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


Yes, it seems most schools are MMA type gyms, or kids class oriented. It seems TMA are only sought after by a very small percentage of people. Unfortunately.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 7, 2021)

Bury ripe and mature, create culture, ferment spirit. Build backyard or nighttime park ring. Be a good ref.


----------



## dunc (Jul 7, 2021)

Reading this thread reminds me that some instructors have fixed views on how their students should develop
Unfortunately human beings are very individual and it's impossible to find a single approach that suits everyone
A really great instructor finds ways (or creates an environment) to help every student develop to be the best that they can be


----------



## Diagen (Jul 7, 2021)

dunc said:


> Reading this thread reminds me that some instructors have fixed views on how their students should develop
> Unfortunately human beings are very individual and it's impossible to find a single approach that suits everyone
> A really great instructor finds ways (or creates an environment) to help every student develop to be the best that they can be


This is hubris. People aren't very individual when you know the principles at play. Flesh is flesh so to speak. The task demands from the individual not the other way around. Know the principles and develop in different order with different intensities and frequencies depending on how 'initiated' one is and what their focus is at the time, but there is much the same to look at year in and year out, month in and month out, even hour in and hour out.
You seem to be lamenting poor instruction though which is understandable. Best to be a great instructor to oneself so you can learn from instructors as one yourself, until you recognize you're out of your class completely, in which case you have met a great instructor.
Ideally one can learn on their own of course.


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 8, 2021)

dunc said:


> Reading this thread reminds me that some instructors have fixed views on how their students should develop
> Unfortunately human beings are very individual and it's impossible to find a single approach that suits everyone
> A really great instructor finds ways (or creates an environment) to help every student develop to be the best that they can be


For me, it's not _how_ they develop but rather that they actually _do _develop and for that to happen the student has to put in effort to some level. I have literally had older teens and adults ask me how much it would cost them to "just get the next belt" without actually training. We don't even have regular testing fees and often don't even wear full uniform or belts during the summer so why they thought this was even an option is beyond me. I had 15 year old quit because I wouldn't give him the option to pay to fast track to a black belt in less than 6 months. I don't care if a person can kick high, or jump, or anything physical I just want students that put in a serious effort and are actually willing to try. Thats it, just honestly try their best. If you start off and can't even touch your knees when stretching but after 2 months you can then in my book that is progress and shows that the student was actually trying. Most of the students I currently have in our martial arts program are all serious students, they may not look the best, or be the best fighters but they all honestly try their hardest to improve, however most of them are under 16 or over 35. We have had many young adults come in just this year that try it for a few months then decide it's too hard and quit. We always give free trials to all new students so it's not like they don't know what they are signing up for.


----------



## dunc (Jul 9, 2021)

Honestly, and I'm sorry if this offends as that's not my intention, I think you would benefit from asking yourself what you might do differently
In my direct experience there is no shortage of 16-35 year olds who want to push themselves and get better at martial arts. So if you feel that none of them are in your class, then perhaps the reason is closer to home


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 9, 2021)

C Sal said:


> I do see sometimes, but it doesn't happen all the time. We have one particular student, she's in her 50s. She's kinda a bad apple. When she goes to class, we have to slow and dumb things down for her, even though she's been practising for more than 10 years. Like I said though, it doesn't happen all the time.


What's wrong with slowing down for a student who doesn't get things as fast as others? Is your class only for fit young men aiming to be pro fighters? 
Calling her a 'bad apple' is  rude unless she's coming in dressed 'gangsta' style threatening to beat other students up.........


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2021)

C Sal said:


> I do see sometimes, but it doesn't happen all the time. We have one particular student, she's in her 50s. She's kinda a bad apple. When she goes to class, we have to slow and dumb things down for her, even though she's been practising for more than 10 years. Like I said though, it doesn't happen all the time.


I don't see how that describes "a bad apple". She's a slower-learning student than most. I've seen some of those folks go on to be more proficient than the fast learners (many of whom simply wouldn't stick with it once things got hard).


----------



## dancingalone (Jul 9, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't see how that describes "a bad apple". She's a slower-learning student than most. I've seen some of those folks go on to be more proficient than the fast learners (many of whom simply wouldn't stick with it once things got hard).



I have a long time student that attends regularly for months at a time and then drops out for one reason or another.  I understand this, life happens.  The main problem is that he has bad retention of material yet he qualified for dan at one point.  When he pops back up again, he's very disruptive to the other black belt students because he has forgotten much of the prequisite curriculum and we have to slow drills down for him or spend time catching him back up.

He is a good guy, but definitely is a drain.  It is what it is, short of driving him off or having him work in the beginner/intermediate classes until he gets back to speed.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 9, 2021)

I think the issue is how you mix exceptional students with mediocre ones. So they both get the benifit of training.

And to do that there needs to be enough flexibility in class for students to develop their own game. While having an idea of the importance of basics.

Our fighters train with everyone else. Always have. And it is a system that works.

So for example our fighters do a drill called a shark tank. Which is one fresh guy in each minute.

This gives the fighters who are super conditioned kill machines a chance to be pushed while not requiring every other monkey to be in top physical shape.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 9, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> because he has forgotten much of the prequisite curriculum and we have to slow drills down for him or spend time catching him back up.



And this might be an issue. We don't really do prerequisite curriculum. 

You are either bad at it or good at it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2021)

dancingalone said:


> I have a long time student that attends regularly for months at a time and then drops out for one reason or another.  I understand this, life happens.  The main problem is that he has bad retention of material yet he qualified for dan at one point.  When he pops back up again, he's very disruptive to the other black belt students because he has forgotten much of the prequisite curriculum and we have to slow drills down for him or spend time catching him back up.
> 
> He is a good guy, but definitely is a drain.  It is what it is, short of driving him off or having him work in the beginner/intermediate classes until he gets back to speed.


I'd argue he shouldn't be training with them if he can't keep up. If he's not training regularly, there's no reason he can't train with lower ranks, where he's more likely to be able to keep up. The needs of the many, and all that.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 9, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And this might be an issue. We don't really do prerequisite curriculum.
> 
> You are either bad at it or good at it.


I think it mostly amounts to the same thing. I have prerequisite curriculum - it's mostly stuff that creates the foundation for more complex (or sometimes subtler) stuff. If you lose your grip on the prerequisite stuff, you won't be any good on the "stuff" it's prerequisite for. If we think of it in terms of rank (where rank at least implies competence at what's being trained), their capability falls to that of a lower rank. So if a BJJ purple belt gets out of practice enough to lose their grip on some of their guard passes and such, they could lose enough to look like a blue belt. And probably ought to be training like a blue belt, rather than being in a group working on stuff that needs purple belt-level skill to keep up.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think it mostly amounts to the same thing. I have prerequisite curriculum - it's mostly stuff that creates the foundation for more complex (or sometimes subtler) stuff. If you lose your grip on the prerequisite stuff, you won't be any good on the "stuff" it's prerequisite for. If we think of it in terms of rank (where rank at least implies competence at what's being trained), their capability falls to that of a lower rank. So if a BJJ purple belt gets out of practice enough to lose their grip on some of their guard passes and such, they could lose enough to look like a blue belt. And probably ought to be training like a blue belt, rather than being in a group working on stuff that needs purple belt-level skill to keep up.



Yeah but that doesn't for example effect the purple belt.


----------



## dunc (Jul 10, 2021)

In my place we always have mixed ability classes. And in normal times we change training partners regularly so everyone gets a chance to train with folk of different abilities, sizes etc
When the black belts pair up with the white belts they learn from teaching and helping the beginners. When the black belts pair up with other black belts they learn from exchanging with their peers. When the white belts pair with white belts they learn from figuring it out together & if they get stuck I help them with the fundamental point of the technique so they learn even if it’s a more advanced movement

In the BJJ academy where I train we have some beginners classes but after that its mixed ability. World champion black belts can learn when training with blue belts by putting themselves in bad places and working their way out or by tapping them every 15 seconds. The blue belts get tips and points of detail that are gold dust for their development

I think it’s all about how you, as the instructor, create a culture of continuous learning by showing folk how to look for the opportunities to learn from any situation. When people understand this have a lot more longevity to their development and it spills over into all parts of their lives (which is far more useful than the MA context)


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 10, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The way you describe the problem here, they sound uninspired, and maybe bored. I might be off, but consider what they are working on at that point in their training. Does it get more technical and less physical at that point? Is there a sharp drop-off in new stuff to work on? Are they spending too much time working on what the lower belts need, so they're not getting to work on what they need to progress?


It's actually quite the opposite. While we do get more technical, the classes get much more physical as you increase in rank. 


dunc said:


> Honestly, and I'm sorry if this offends as that's not my intention, I think you would benefit from asking yourself what you might do differently
> In my direct experience there is no shortage of 16-35 year olds who want to push themselves and get better at martial arts. So if you feel that none of them are in your class, then perhaps the reason is closer to home


No offense taken. Introspective looks are always useful. I'm starting to think geographic location may be part of it; the majority of jobs in my area are manual labor/factory jobs that run 50-60 hour work weeks so maybe people are just too worn out . Even teens in my area are working pretty labor intensive jobs from what I've gathered and the older teens and adult that I do have training either focus purely on school and don't work or have an office job/self employed. So if that is the case, I need to figure out a way to test it to be sure and then find a way to overcome it.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 15, 2021)

Imagine every fight or spar is life or death. How do you train?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but that doesn't for example effect the purple belt.


Doesn't it? If training is tailored to individual levels, then training at a level above where you are isn't really ideal. To take the extreme, tossing a white belt into a class of BJJ black belts working on stuff you need that kind of skill and understanding to get much from (perhaps more technical guard passes), that white belt will almost certainly learn less than if one of those black belts was working with them at an appropriate level for the white belt. The same would be true - at less of an extreme - for the purple belt who isn't able to perform at purple belt level. They'd be better served training at the level they currently are.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Imagine every fight or spar is life or death. How do you train?


In constant fear?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 15, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> In constant fear?


Yes, and now imagine you have 1 year to train and there's a life or death battle after 1 year. How do you train. What do you train. Any ideas?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 15, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> It's actually quite the opposite. While we do get more technical, the classes get much more physical as you increase in rank.
> 
> No offense taken. Introspective looks are always useful. I'm starting to think geographic location may be part of it; the majority of jobs in my area are manual labor/factory jobs that run 50-60 hour work weeks so maybe people are just too worn out . Even teens in my area are working pretty labor intensive jobs from what I've gathered and the older teens and adult that I do have training either focus purely on school and don't work or have an office job/self employed. So if that is the case, I need to figure out a way to test it to be sure and then find a way to overcome it.


It is certainly something to look at but it has been my experience that the body gets used to the workload it is given.   If your students are working manual labour jobs 50 to 60 hours a week and STILL want to train in something they know is physically demanding, then the spark to learn is there.  As you are taking the time for introspection may I suggest you record a few of your classes for you to review afterwards.  If you can aim the camera at your students, you may pick up the moments when your energy 'dumps'.   That may the place for you to look on improving so that the effect you are looking to create is encouraged instead of 'groaned at'.     

I recently had an opportunity to teach with another BB in a class I normally lead.   As she was a higher rank, I stepped back and let her lead.   She's a great instructor and is much closer in age to the students.   During a particular physical section of the class, as she was explaining the rules of the 'competition', more than a few students asked her if it was going to be an 'elimination' competition (ie:   1 winner at the end).   It wasn't and the class went on but it occurred to me that most of the 'competitions' I use are probably 'elimination' based.   I do this for a number or reasons (mostly to inject some fun competition in pushing oneself to complete a series of movements or tasks that are repetitious) but I now wonder if I do it too much.   I think this class responds well to this type of stimuli but it may be considered to be too 'much' fun.   I blame Mr. Myagi and his infernal approach to teaching without seemingly teaching.   All of this to say, introspection is a good way to improve oneself if that is something one wishes to do.   Good luck and keep us posted.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Yes, and now imagine you have 1 year to train and there's a life or death battle after 1 year. How do you train. What do you train. Any ideas?


My point was that training in constant fear isn't terribly effective. Stress doesn't enhance the brain's capacity to learn. We need stress (and perhaps even some fear) at times in our training, but if every sparring session were life-or-death, then the wise choice would be to avoid them.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 15, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My point was that training in constant fear isn't terribly effective. Stress doesn't enhance the brain's capacity to learn. We need stress (and perhaps even some fear) at times in our training, but if every sparring session were life-or-death, then the wise choice would be to avoid them.



Yeah. But on the flip side training with an end goal that is serious. Creates that discipline and work ethic.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My point was that training in constant fear isn't terribly effective. Stress doesn't enhance the brain's capacity to learn. We need stress (and perhaps even some fear) at times in our training, but if every sparring session were life-or-death, then the wise choice would be to avoid them.


But conquering fear is naturally what a martial artist should do.



drop bear said:


> Yeah. But on the flip side training with an end goal that is serious. Creates that discipline and work ethic.


Yes and while thinking about how to overcome the problem, one does not waste time on useless ideas and begins to conquer fear and monumental pressure.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> But conquering fear is naturally what a martial artist should do.
> 
> 
> Yes and while thinking about how to overcome the problem, one does not waste time on useless ideas and begins to conquer fear and monumental pressure.



Sounds like something a screenwriter has a character in a drama saying. Fear doesn't have to be a negative, you can use it and still not sound like a video game 'soldier'.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Sounds like something a screenwriter has a character in a drama saying. Fear doesn't have to be a negative, you can use it and still not sound like a video game 'soldier'.


lol why are you afraid of being made fun of in your own head or online for talking about conquering fear? Are you afraid of relating to it, does that make you vulnerable?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

"Blink without blinking." "Conquer fear without conquering fear." Have some pride. Don't let others humiliate you, don't let people say you haven't conquered anything. It is what it is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> But conquering fear is naturally what a martial artist should do.


Sure, but that's not at all what your post suggested doing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> "Blink without blinking." "Conquer fear without conquering fear." Have some pride. Don't let others humiliate you, don't let people say you haven't conquered anything. It is what it is.


Is that supposed to seem deep? I'm not sure what this post is even about.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Sure, but that's not at all what your post suggested doing.


How do you think one conquers fear? Should one go out and have real life or death fights? Think about what you are saying.
I don't care where you guys are coming from it's ridiculous and overly sensitive.



gpseymour said:


> Is that supposed to seem deep? I'm not sure what this post is even about.


I am saying to the guy I replied to that I am being as direct and honest as possible. There's no dressing to my words. Meanwhile he suggests that I try and tell someone to conquer fear without telling someone to conquer fear, or that one should "use fear" without "conquering fear" which are about the same thing anyway so it makes no sense.
If you "use fear" and dont' "conquer fear" then perhaps one's use of fear is minimal and it has no place in one's experiences. In which case one is hardly using fear and the statements by Tez3 are nonsense either way.
Am I understood?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> How do you think one conquers fear? Should one go out and have real life or death fights? Think about what you are saying.
> I don't care where you guys are coming from it's ridiculous and overly sensitive.


What you're suggesting is to cultivate fear, not conquer it. Teaching yourself to fear something as if it were deadly isn't healthy. And doesn't really do anything to overcome fear. Stepping into a ring would go much farther toward what you're suggesting for most people, as would any number of acts that genuinely create anxiety or fear for the person involved.

I suspect your original point was more about being serious in your training, as if it mattered for life-and-death situations, which is a valid philosophy to bring to training.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> What you're suggesting is to cultivate fear, not conquer it. Teaching yourself to fear something as if it were deadly isn't healthy. And doesn't really do anything to overcome fear. Stepping into a ring would go much farther toward what you're suggesting for most people, as would any number of acts that genuinely create anxiety or fear for the person involved.
> 
> I suspect your original point was more about being serious in your training, as if it mattered for life-and-death situations, which is a valid philosophy to bring to training.


You're contradicting yourself and missing the goal here. You state stepping into the ring would help one conquer fear, or any act that genuinely creates anxiety or fear. One of these would be to get into a life or death fight. I don't suggest doing that.
Your fear grows because it doesn't match the fear of a life or death fight because it's mere training or sparring, so as one improves their capacity to generate similar fear levels you notice it growing. 
Your last line is agreeable. The more serious one takes it, the wording of that line changes though. "as if it mattered for life-and-death" becomes "because it matters for life-and-death" becomes "it will decide whether you live or die" becomes "live or die trying" becomes chaotic intensity far away from a computer screen. Or something along those lines.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You're contradicting yourself and missing the goal here. You state stepping into the ring would help one conquer fear, or any act that genuinely creates anxiety or fear. One of these would be to get into a life or death fight. I don't suggest doing that.
> Your fear grows because it doesn't match the fear of a life or death fight because it's mere training or sparring, so as one improves their capacity to generate similar fear levels you notice it growing.
> Your last line is agreeable. The more serious one takes it, the wording of that line changes though. "as if it mattered for life-and-death" becomes "because it matters for life-and-death" becomes "it will decide whether you live or die" becomes "live or die trying" becomes chaotic intensity far away from a computer screen. Or something along those lines.


You're talking gibberish again: " becomes chaotic intensity far away from a computer screen".

Most people's training doesn't matter for life-and-death situations. And training, itself, is not a life-and-death situation - which is where you started this whole thing.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 16, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're talking gibberish again: " becomes chaotic intensity far away from a computer screen".
> 
> Most people's training doesn't matter for life-and-death situations. And training, itself, is not a life-and-death situation - which is where you started this whole thing.


That's not gibberish. Talking online would be replaced with intense training if one were most serious about it.
Most people's training doesn't matter for life and death because their training doesn't prepare them for it. Training isn't a life or death scenario usually but that doesn't mean one can't imagine it so, what's your point?
You don't know the potential of martial arts or training but it seems like you assume you do.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You don't know the potential of martial arts or training but it seems like you assume you do.


I think this sums up your attitude of those who disagree with you.


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 16, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Am I understood?


Diagen seems infatuated with his own physio-psychologicial, overly verbose, concepts.  I think we mostly do not understand where the heck he's coming from, other than expressing his ideas in complex literary tag phrases (sounds kind of cool there)

Diagen, how have YOU conquered fear and trained for a true life and death struggle?

IMO, you conquer fear by denying the danger or risk.  But life-death combat is inherently dangerous and risky.  _To deny this removes the incentive_ to fight like hell with vigorous offense and defense.

One should accept the fear, along with the danger and risk.  By embracing this, you now have a handle on the spiritual side of combat and can put your full energy on the mental and physical aspect - that being landing disabling attacks, without taking one, and continuing to do so until the opponent is crushed.

It's quite simple - but not necessarily easy (or even possible for some who have become too domesticated to be responsible for their own survival.)


----------



## Diagen (Jul 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think this sums up your attitude of those who disagree with you.


Whether it sums up my attitude or not, I am trying to see other's point of view the entire conversation. If you want to approach something from a different angle I am game. Most people tend to be rigid in their point of view, hence why I would be somewhat confrontational. Most people are not confrontational or overly confrontational without much explanation and perspectives are not easily changed this way.

You admit that in this conversation you have made claims I have generally refuted or used to clarify my position, yes? And in the end it adds to the discussion even if the participants find it gives their mind an indian burn?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Diagen seems infatuated with his own physio-psychologicial, overly verbose, concepts.  I think we mostly do not understand where the heck he's coming from, other than expressing his ideas in complex literary tag phrases (sounds kind of cool there)
> 
> Diagen, how have YOU conquered fear and trained for a true life and death struggle?
> 
> ...


"How have YOU conquered fear and trained for a true life and death struggle?"
I lived for years in fear and treating things not life and death as life and death.
Imagined for years that there was someone around every corner so would check with my balance and footing adjusted with flashes of weapons flying towards my eye or torso sort of flash-blinding my mind from mental sensitivity due to exhaustion and heightened sense imagination if it's close range or someone stepping out or hiding in shadows, or animals in places or charging me and in all this tensing the body in the ready for the counter with adrenaline and somesuch pumping and getting viscerally aggressive.

Imagined my chair would break and the splintered wood would jam into my body and organs; always kept aware of center of balance and weight distribution and kept feet on the ground and or arms positioned a certain way; or kept my body dense by some process I can't explain but let's me shrug off hits to torso and has a certain sensation associated with it so I can manage to do it; not entirely consistent but would stressfully go back to keeping balance or dense very frequently. I think the dense feeling was the organs being positioned right, muscles in a strong state, and internal pressure consistence.

Performed physical challenges with no preparation. This might be more misery. I exercise with fear of destroying my body and fear of snapping my neck when doing handstands though, and deal with and conquer it.

Take conspiracy theories seriously and still don't believe the world is a safe place and that there's no way to verify if what is considered true (common narrative) is true, or that conspiracy theories are false. Equal possibility and I believe many things are generally true like that p. Edo is absolutely prevalent and executives and our shoguns are involved to a decent % (even if it's 5% with another 5 - 10% knowing about it that's insane). Spent years seeing the world as a terrible place and still do but am not actively looking into it the last year or so. Mass surveillance is BIG. Corporations do it, government, random foreign governments, hackers for syndicates, lone hackers, it's everywhere man.

Looking at nuke footage and thinking about any apocolyptic scenario semi-regularly with earnest expectation. Small scale horrors that can be local like rioting and the fall of civility as well.

I guess there's more. I'll remember later.


----------



## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 17, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> "training,"


What is Training?     Training implies an event, unless you have an event you arent training.      Practise seems to fit the best for most of this, you cant train for anevent, 24/7 as you will burn yourself out, its why you see people blitz say 2 months before some form of competition, chill down for recovery, blitz again for the next competiton rinse and repeat.    If you know an event is happening in 2 weels, you can plan your time accordinly if you are preparing for something like getting accosted in the street, you cant burn yourself out with a wrist injury as you could be accosted with said injury.  (and more likely to be)

No idea if that fits context, but the usage of words is always intresting.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 17, 2021)

Diagen said:


> "How have YOU conquered fear and trained for a true life and death struggle?"
> I lived for years in fear and treating things not life and death as life and death.
> Imagined for years that there was someone around every corner so would check with my balance and footing adjusted with flashes of weapons flying towards my eye or torso sort of flash-blinding my mind from mental sensitivity due to exhaustion and heightened sense imagination if it's close range or someone stepping out or hiding in shadows, or animals in places or charging me and in all this tensing the body in the ready for the counter with adrenaline and somesuch pumping and getting viscerally aggressive.
> 
> ...


This is all... interesting... and I don't want to assume anything..... but it feels like there are some real psychological uh, stuff there.. I may be wrong, but that does sound like some heavy anxiety.. certainly don't have to speak on this I'd you don't want to.

If there isn't, can I ask fellow traveller... if this was a conscious intention, why did you undergo and reinforce these fear/paranoia patterns?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 17, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> This is all... interesting... and I don't want to assume anything..... but it feels like there are some real psychological uh, stuff there.. I may be wrong, but that does sound like some heavy anxiety.. certainly don't have to speak on this I'd you don't want to.
> 
> If there isn't, can I ask fellow traveller... if this was a conscious intention, why did you undergo and reinforce these fear/paranoia patterns?


It's by choice. I don't have to think about any of it. I've stopped mostly because I'd like to socialize and am feeling pretty good.

I reinforced these paranoia patterns because of the benefits. I'm pretty strong emotionally and mentally, as well as physically. Some of the more severe and immediate fears like neck snapping I just deal with by tensing my neck and being more focused, then shut it out. If I didn't want to think of that stuff at all I could but I don't see the point. Might as well tense my neck up and shut it out while there's underlying awareness of the danger. To live with fear is to not be unaware and complacent.

There's other negative emotions so just one negative emotion/ mental state isn't too bad. I think of it as training stimulus or active engagement emotionally and mentally with reality.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You admit that in this conversation you have made claims I have generally refuted


You haven't refuted them, just denied them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I lived for years in fear and treating things not life and death as life and death.


If this is true, it is not healthy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 17, 2021)

Rat said:


> Training implies an event,


Does it?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 17, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You haven't refuted them, just denied them.


I guess I haven't.


gpseymour said:


> If this is true, it is not healthy.


How the hell does simulation of the real thing not prepare you for it? You spar and it prepares you for competition fights. Sparring can prepare you for street fights as well. In terms of conquering fear, how does the existence of it not present the opportunity to conquer it? Your training schedule prepares you to train, your training prepares you for many physical tasks such as fighting.

So thinking about how you could die from lack of awareness then exercising that awareness will definitely improve it. Recognizing that training leaves you WEAK and then getting your endurance, mind, strength back to 100% as quick as possible by actively willfully recovering your strength is stressful and makes you Strong. It's unhealthy to join the army as well. I don't put myself through constant hell now but there were (recent and not so recent) years that I did. It created difficulty in my life. That's fine. I am not unhealthy though.

I know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Holmejr (Jul 17, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


It’s not just Martial Arts, it’s anything folks get into. In a typical MA school, how hard is it to find a student that stays a year, let alone 5 years for black belt. You want hard training, but that narrows the field to about 1 in a Zillion. The vast majority of people just don’t care enough or don’t see the need to take it to that level. Not sure where you live, but maybe there is a top flight MMA school near you. In OC Cali there are plenty of high level schools to get my *** kicked. In our school we play as hard as possible without seriously hurting each other, but because we attempt to train with intent, we stay a pretty small group, training at my instructors home. Haha, maybe we could find more students if we gave away free  “Be kind” t-shirts with every membership.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I guess I haven't.
> 
> How the hell does simulation of the real thing not prepare you for it?



Because its a simulation. But then there is no *"safe"* way to do it otherwise.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 18, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> Am I the only one that has a hard time finding serious martial artists to train with locally? Our kids class is booming but it is far from an actual martial arts program and more of a martial arts inspired youth fitness program. I only run that program to keep my doors open so I can train seriously with older teens and adults but as time goes on I find fewer teens/adults that actually want to train in a real martial art. As soon as training get physically demanding the adults don't want to keep going or they don't put in any effort. When sparring and working partner drills they don't want to have any resistance or contact and just sort of half *** everything. It's like all they want is a social club and to say they "_do krotee_", any training is just an afterthought. Anybody else experience this?


I don't understand the term in this context. I drag my tired old body into the dojo twice a week to teach and train. I get value from it or I would not do it. Some of my fellow students are there for other reasons than I am. Which of us is serious and which of us are not?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 18, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Because its a simulation. But then there is no *"safe"* way to do it otherwise.


Right. There's not much alternative. You can break it down to the physical, the mental, the emotional, the rational, and the social, and you will have to work with what you got.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 18, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't understand the term in this context. I drag my tired old body into the dojo twice a week to teach and train. I get value from it or I would not do it. Some of my fellow students are there for other reasons than I am. Which of us is serious and which of us are not?


For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
EDIT: And onions.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jul 18, 2021)

Diagen said:


> For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
> EDIT: And onions.


Oh lord.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 18, 2021)

Diagen said:


> For general energy, jump rope and vinegar is best.
> EDIT: And onions.


What is the evidence to back that? It’s a pretty straightforward claim, so should be easy to show evidence for.


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 18, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't understand the term in this context. I drag my tired old body into the dojo twice a week to teach and train. I get value from it or I would not do it. Some of my fellow students are there for other reasons than I am. Which of us is serious and which of us are not?


I don't know your students but if you are training for a reason and with purpose and not just showing up for the sake of showing up I would say that you are definitely a serious student. In this regard I am referring to teens and adults that don't put in any effort and when you ask them to try they decide to quit. There are many reasons to train in a martial art but in order to get anything out of it you absolutely have to put something into it. Good example; Had a 14 year old join for about 2 months. He only signed up because his parents told him he couldn't just sit at home all day, he either joined a recreational activity of some kind or got a job. After about 2 months of showing up but not putting in much effort, he approached me and asked how much longer until he got a black belt. My response was there was no designated time it all depends on the effort he puts in, to which he responded by asking how much money it would cost him to get me to give him a black belt and black belt certificate. When I told him he couldn't buy rank he sat out of the class that day and  didn't come back. When I tried to contact the parents to check in on him their response was that it was more work to get him to go to class than it was worth. This has been my primary experience with teenagers and their parents; lazy, unmotivated, and undisciplined with no desire to change. Adults on the other hand tend to just be too exhausted from working 12 hour days at the factory or want to train but it's at the same time as something their kid(s) are participating in and family comes first and I don't blame them for that. 

I ask every student before they even sign up what their reason for training is and most of the time teens say that they want to get a black belt. When I ask why they never seem to really know so I tell them I will try to help them find out why they want a black belt. Then as we train they learn what it is going to take to get a black belt and decide they don't want it that badly.

The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
*Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
Mom: "Go ask your father."
Daughter: "I don't want to learn that much."*


----------



## isshinryuronin (Jul 19, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
> *Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
> Mom: "Go ask your father."
> Daughter: "I don't want to learn that much."*


Funny. But I don't think it's so much they don't want to learn, but as you inferred, they don't want to put in the effort. There may be "want" but not the _need.  _It's not internalized. They are not seekers.

I am probably not communicating my thoughts well, but martial arts takes dedication.  Who wants to spend years (or even months) on repetitive exercise, sweating, striving for excellence, risking injury or some pain, feeling inadequate, disciplining themselves to train and when taking a fall to get back up, and all the rest that comes with it?  Many of you will say, "No big deal, I've done it," but you are the exception.  Not everyone (most) don't have what it takes. 

The challenge for an instructor is to retain the student who is "naive" of what MA offers (and takes) until the real benefits reveal themselves to the student.  At that time, the training wheels can come off and they can ride the bike on their own.  Most will not reach that point.


----------



## Alan0354 (Jul 19, 2021)

I don't think this is unique in MA, same as many other skills like ballet, playing musical instruments and others. So many people get started, but lax off and quit after a few months. Some just kind of hanging around. It takes a lot of discipline, determination and patient to excel. Most people just don't have it. Look at the rate of student quiting.


----------



## dunc (Jul 19, 2021)

I feel that a class can be tough, technical etc and enjoyable too


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 19, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I ask every student before they even sign up what their reason for training is and most of the time teens say that they want to get a black belt. When I ask why they never seem to really know so I tell them I will try to help them find out why they want a black belt. Then as we train they learn what it is going to take to get a black belt and decide they don't want it that badly.
> 
> The best analogy I can think of when it comes to teens "wanting" to get black belt is this;
> *Daughter: "Mom, I want to learn about relationships."
> ...


I can appreciate what you are saying here.   I think it is a natural response from a teen.   Not to get too crazy with analogies but teens 'eyes are generally bigger than their stomachs'.    They often want what they see but do not always understand how to properly evaluate how to get there    I think that is our main task as a guide (ie:  The one who has been there before).   We know what it takes to get there and it's for us to help them find their way.   It may not be exactly the same path as the one we took but we can always learn from our own mistakes and perhaps spare others.......or not.   That may also be part of the journey.   Each guide has their own idea of how to get there.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 19, 2021)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Oh lord.





gpseymour said:


> What is the evidence to back that? It’s a pretty straightforward claim, so should be easy to show evidence for.


Haha he fears the jump rope. For jump rope it's less impact on the knees than jogging and is similar enough in muscle requirement to replicate it. Cardio or whole body conditioning is known to boost general energy levels. Boxers that do not do enough jump rope have poor conditioning and poor coordination compared to those that do (generally).
A vinegar mix was the drink of choice for Roman soldiers, reported to give them more energy to train and march and march and march. The roman legion was known for their diligent march training. It was usually watered down with some salt added.
Onion I have personal experience with as generally increasing energy and willingness to exert oneself. I have seen studies where it boosts free testosterone as well. One is in rats and one is a guy in another forum that did blood work before and after eating an onion every day for a couple weeks or a month and found higher levels of free testosterone.









						The effects of dance music jump rope exercise on pulmonary function and body mass index after music jump rope exercise in overweight adults in 20’s
					

[Purpose] The purpose of this study was to examine the effect of a dance music jump rope exercise on changes Pulmonary Function and body mass index in female overweight subjects in their 20’s. [Subjects and Methods] The subjects were randomly ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



Lung function improves moreso with jump rope than cycling.



			https://files.eric.ed.gov/fulltext/EJ1170647.pdf
		

Study shows that male students going through P.E. regularly AND doing jump rope improve in metrics of speed, VO2 max and body composition moreso than those doing the P.E. lessons alone.









						Jump Rope Training: Balance and Motor Coordination in Preadolescent Soccer Players
					

General physical practice and multidimensional exercises are essential elements that allow young athletes to enhance their coordinative traits, balance, and strength and power levels, which are linked to the learning soccer-specific skills. Jumping rope ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				



Two groups, one doing soccer specific drills, and the other doing jump rope, shows that the jump rope group developed greater coordination and motor control by their improvement in an agility test while the soccer drill group did not improve after the 8 week study.

Jump rope of course increases bone, tendon and muscle strength in the lower body. Cardio improves muscle function and growth.

All in all jump rope is the way to go for cardio, conditioning and general energy and well-being.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 19, 2021)

Diagen said:


> All in all jump rope is the way to go for cardio, conditioning and general energy and well-being.


You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.


Haha if he was conditioned from MA he would not be so tired and grumpy. I don't think he'd be stuck replying with one liners or bulletpoints when I give him a complex topic either.
He can't even be bothered to look at martial arts related training [knowledge] either.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 20, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can obtain the same result by doing MA training. Jump rope, running, swimming, ... are all good for health. But those are not MA training.


Why not?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Funny. But I don't think it's so much they don't want to learn, but as you inferred, they don't want to put in the effort. There may be "want" but not the _need.  _It's not internalized. They are not seekers.
> 
> I am probably not communicating my thoughts well, but martial arts takes dedication.  Who wants to spend years (or even months) on repetitive exercise, sweating, striving for excellence, risking injury or some pain, feeling inadequate, disciplining themselves to train and when taking a fall to get back up, and all the rest that comes with it?  Many of you will say, "No big deal, I've done it," but you are the exception.  Not everyone (most) don't have what it takes.
> 
> The challenge for an instructor is to retain the student who is "naive" of what MA offers (and takes) until the real benefits reveal themselves to the student.  At that time, the training wheels can come off and they can ride the bike on their own.  Most will not reach that point.


I love the term @Tony Dismukes gave me for those of us who aren't professionals in MA: hobbyists. I think thinking of it as a hobby makes it easier to understand what happens. Most of us have a hobby other than MA. For some of us, we are REALLY serious about that hobby. For some of us, it's just something we like doing well enough to be worth the work it entails to keep doing it, and we get pretty good at it just by enjoying the process. Sometimes that hobby even turns out to be something we can make a career/business out of.

But most of us also have a trail of hobbies we tried out and didn't really stick with. We might even have the detritus of those explorations in closets and attics. Some of us even stuck with it for a while, but really couldn't find enough motivation in that hobby to be worth the effort it needed. And some of us managed to find an easy path in that hobby, so were able to keep going with it, without ever really getting good at it - just good enough to be able to keep doing and enjoying.

And that all happens to people who get into MA, too. Finding sersious students is partly a numbers game. Folks can't know if it's right for them without trying it out, so we want lots of folks to try it out. It's hard for some of us as instructors, because we want to share our passion with every student, and many of them simply aren't going have that passions. And that's actually okay.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> I can appreciate what you are saying here.   I think it is a natural response from a teen.   Not to get too crazy with analogies but teens 'eyes are generally bigger than their stomachs'.    They often want what they see but do not always understand how to properly evaluate how to get there    I think that is our main task as a guide (ie:  The one who has been there before).   We know what it takes to get there and it's for us to help them find their way.   It may not be exactly the same path as the one we took but we can always learn from our own mistakes and perhaps spare others.......or not.   That may also be part of the journey.   Each guide has their own idea of how to get there.


It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.

Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Haha he fears the jump rope. For jump rope it's less impact on the knees than jogging and is similar enough in muscle requirement to replicate it. Cardio or whole body conditioning is known to boost general energy levels. Boxers that do not do enough jump rope have poor conditioning and poor coordination compared to those that do (generally).
> A vinegar mix was the drink of choice for Roman soldiers, reported to give them more energy to train and march and march and march. The roman legion was known for their diligent march training. It was usually watered down with some salt added.
> Onion I have personal experience with as generally increasing energy and willingness to exert oneself. I have seen studies where it boosts free testosterone as well. One is in rats and one is a guy in another forum that did blood work before and after eating an onion every day for a couple weeks or a month and found higher levels of free testosterone.
> 
> ...


So, you've got evidence for the part you decided to mock about at the top - which wasn't at all what I had questions about. I'm not sure the claim of "best" is supported by those studies, but they (and the experience of many folks on here) certainly support it at least being a very good exercise.

Now to the other parts. For those, you refer to anecdote and historical usage. Neither of those come even close to supporting a claim of "best"...nor even really of efficacy. You don't clarify, so all I can go with at this point is supposition, and I suspect that you didn't introduce onions to your diet in a controlled manner (changing nothing else, during a plateau in development) and measure performance before and after. With that, you'd at least have anecdotal evidence to support the claim that onion increases energy, but the potential for a placebo effect would make it the weakest kind of evidence. The historical use of vinegar is simply too confounded by other variables to be more than interesting.


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.
> 
> Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.


Generally I can agree with the sentiments of your statements.   I wouldn't necessarily call teenage brains 'incomplete' or qualify the majority 'bad at figuring out' how much something big will will take.   They are less experienced with many things and may tend to use 'trial and error' type of learning which isn't all bad.   Sometimes it is better to 'do' and then review results than to 'think' of what 'may' happen.  Even as adults our brains may 'lie' to us to save our egos or we may just not know our limits (or how far we can push past them).    So yes, I do agree that they have to get into something to figure out stuff but then again so should we as adults.  Research is good.  Planning is good.   Doing is also good, if you have a good guide that can help you find a way to pass your preconceived notions of what you thought you could only do.  

Hopefully as adults we have learned to better evaluate which path to take better than we were able to when we were teens but I suppose that depends on how successful we were when we were in our 'trial and error' phase.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It's also worth remembering that teenage brains are still incomplete. They literally have not completed the area that helps with long-term planning and consequences. That means most of the time, most teens will be bad at figuring out (or even considering) how much work something big will take, how much it will cost them (opportunity cost), and whether that's an exchange they're interested in. They often have to get into something to figure out this stuff.
> 
> Adults are only marginally better at some parts of this, but at least have the capacity to think through the long-term opportunity cost of a commitment.


This is quack man. Teenagers brains are fine. No one knows the cost/ benefit of MA. The dojo's cost/ benefit is much clearer though. People show up, they get a read for the place, then decide to leave or not. Teenagers might be growing but that has nothing to do with their competence in planning things out -- most teenagers grow up with their day to day and life generally predetermined for them. If your life were predetermined for you I bet you would spend less time planning or an extremely high amount of time planning while resenting your day to day. Either way you show up, get a read, and decide it's not what you want to invest your life into or 5 years or 3 months. 
Boxing gyms and such are about getting a level of competence you can use in 3 months, and be good at in 2 years. There's a definite end to it. Try telling someone there's no end to something and whether they want to do it or not: "Hell no!" Give them a definite end-time and they would be more abliging.
It's not a mistake of others that people don't train in MA it's the lack of efficiency and definite effectiveness born from highly pragmatic and rational thinking. It's often the jack-of-all-trades issue. Trying to master ground, standup, punching, kicking, grappling, weapons requires a lot of connection. TMA places don't place enough emphasis on daily physical training though, which makes no sense given it helps build mind-body connection in general, conditioning, recovery, and necessary physical prowess. So the instructors just seem like they have no clue what they're doing. If you step into a TMA gym and everyone is a superb athlete then you would get some seriously dedicated new recruits.

Alternatively boxing is pretty straightforward and intelligent. Maybe you can't deal with a takedown but good athleticism means you can sidestep a charge from 3 -  4 ft no doubt. It's not a complete fighting art or science but they have some specificity that draws people in. Most people don't want to go fight all the time but boxing isn't fighting, it's a sport that has a lot of use for fighters/ fights. Most fights are more like "honorable duels" and people box most of it (BECAUSE BOXING IS A THING and a way of settling things vs "_self-defense_") or brutal street fights where someone might have a weapon that they'll use when you're not aware the fight has begun (if they're good and fucked up). TMA doesn't teach people to settle something in unfamiliar settings with violence haha. TMA is all a messed up free for all.

At least with MMA you have a consensus and rational debate over what is effective and what isn't. TMA people think they know better and it isn't just aggression or beligerence it's entrenched beliefs they have.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, you've got evidence for the part you decided to mock about at the top - which wasn't at all what I had questions about. I'm not sure the claim of "best" is supported by those studies, but they (and the experience of many folks on here) certainly support it at least being a very good exercise.
> 
> Now to the other parts. For those, you refer to anecdote and historical usage. Neither of those come even close to supporting a claim of "best"...nor even really of efficacy. You don't clarify, so all I can go with at this point is supposition, and I suspect that you didn't introduce onions to your diet in a controlled manner (changing nothing else, during a plateau in development) and measure performance before and after. With that, you'd at least have anecdotal evidence to support the claim that onion increases energy, but the potential for a placebo effect would make it the weakest kind of evidence. The historical use of vinegar is simply too confounded by other variables to be more than interesting.


It was a joke mostly. 
Your other point against it being the "best". Okay. Talking of jump rope: the form is uncomplicated and you can measure objective performance easily. The conditioning is better than jogging perhaps, and the knee impact is low. The lightness on one's feet and fact that it's cardio is a great boon to an old guy that complains of a tired body. If he could do 1 minute of jump rope with a good pace and 5 inches in heel vertical I would be surprised but that's great -- now he needs to progress to 5 minutes.

I didn't use anecdote for onion I used a study on rats I wasn't motivated to cite and anecdote of my own and other's experiences. Here's a meta-study:









						Testosterone in Males as Enhanced by Onion (Allium Cepa L.)
					

Testosterone (17β-Hydroxyandrost-4-en-3-one) is the main sex hormone in males. Maintaining and enhancing testosterone level in men is an incessant target for many researchers. Examples of such research approaches is to utilize specific types of ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




It used to be a micro cultural phase (amongst communities online) and still lives on in those that have tried it. Historical account is very good reason haha! Good enough that with anecdote it makes sense. Vinegar is good and it sticks around in health obsessed cultures for a reason. All fermented food is good for you. If you tried it with a bit of motivation instead of a really bad mood from taste or whatever you would see the benefits pretty quickly. 

Just try it yourself. It's easy.

Why does everyone want a controlled study. It's food. You can just try it. Your claims of placebo are ridiculous since every person can experience "negative placebo" where you want something to fail so it doesn't work. Double edge sword.

Haha do you guys fear the onion and vinegar too? I think the truth is beginning to surface. One's will or lack thereof is quite informative, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Generally I can agree with the sentiments of your statements.   I wouldn't necessarily call teenage brains 'incomplete' or qualify the majority 'bad at figuring out' how much something big will will take.   They are less experienced with many things and may tend to use 'trial and error' type of learning which isn't all bad.   Sometimes it is better to 'do' and then review results than to 'think' of what 'may' happen.  Even as adults our brains may 'lie' to us to save our egos or we may just not know our limits (or how far we can push past them).    So yes, I do agree that they have to get into something to figure out stuff but then again so should we as adults.  Research is good.  Planning is good.   Doing is also good, if you have a good guide that can help you find a way to pass your preconceived notions of what you thought you could only do.
> 
> Hopefully as adults we have learned to better evaluate which path to take better than we were able to when we were teens but I suppose that depends on how successful we were when we were in our 'trial and error' phase.


My comment about them being incomplete is quite literal. The portion of the brain responsible for (among other things) reasoning through consequence is the last portion to develop. For most males it finishes developing in the mid 20's, and a bit earlier in most females.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> This is quack man. Teenagers brains are fine.


I never said they weren't "fine". I said they are incomplete. If you have evidence to contradict what we know of brain development (continues to mid-20's in most men), I'd love to see it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> It was a joke mostly.
> Your other point against it being the "best". Okay. Talking of jump rope: the form is uncomplicated and you can measure objective performance easily. The conditioning is better than jogging perhaps, and the knee impact is low. The lightness on one's feet and fact that it's cardio is a great boon to an old guy that complains of a tired body. If he could do 1 minute of jump rope with a good pace and 5 inches in heel vertical I would be surprised but that's great -- now he needs to progress to 5 minutes.
> 
> I didn't use anecdote for onion I used a study on rats I wasn't motivated to cite and anecdote of my own and other's experiences. Here's a meta-study:
> ...


You may actually understate the advantage jump rope has over running for MA-related performance in this post. Perhaps running hills/stairs would come close, but I'd be hard to convince that jump rope isn't a better overall exercise than running. I never got very good at jump rope (I enjoyed running too much, back when my knees could take it), so my own experience may be tempered by never really getting to a point where I would plateau on that exercise.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I never said they weren't "fine". I said they are incomplete. If you have evidence to contradict what we know of brain development (continues to mid-20's in most men), I'd love to see it.


Haha that their brain is still changing and convoluting until 25 doesn't make it incompetent at planning or "incomplete" for what amounts to a basic cognitive function. There is no "we" here because it's not established scientific fact, you're reading dumb articles and sensationalized scientists that give their incredibly assumptuous opinion about things.
Neuroscience is way past this 1980s or whenever research man you have no clue. These basic reductionist sweeping assertions have already been shaken off the field but you don't really check that kind of stuff so how would you know?
Neuroscience is more confused than ever at how things work while having a better map of it all too. It's too complicated for them. They find specific structures responsible for something and weep like God and his Angels have descended from the Heavens. Or like Lot's wife they fall in a pillar of salt. Because they're very very salty people after studying neuroscience.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You may actually understate the advantage jump rope has over running for MA-related performance in this post. Perhaps running hills/stairs would come close, but I'd be hard to convince that jump rope isn't a better overall exercise than running. I never got very good at jump rope (I enjoyed running too much, back when my knees could take it), so my own experience may be tempered by never really getting to a point where I would plateau on that exercise.



It's big big big for keeping light on your feet. When you get better you swing the rope faster and can do 1 leg jumps so you can't really plateau at all. You can do the HIIT type stuff where you go fast then slow, fast then slow, like you're going up and then down a hill so to speak. *You try the kneesovertoes guy stuff?*
You can get weighted jump rope and/ or put on a weight vest as well if you're very very good at it. Putting in at least 10 minutes straight though is not easy.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Haha that their brain is still changing and convoluting until 25 doesn't make it incompetent at planning or "incomplete" for what amounts to a basic cognitive function. There is no "we" here because it's not established scientific fact, you're reading dumb articles and sensationalized scientists that give their incredibly assumptuous opinion about things.
> Neuroscience is way past this 1980s or whenever research man you have no clue. These basic reductionist sweeping assertions have already been shaken off the field but you don't really check that kind of stuff so how would you know?
> Neuroscience is more confused than ever at how things work while having a better map of it all too. It's too complicated for them. They find specific structures responsible for something and weep like God and his Angels have descended from the Heavens. Or like Lot's wife they fall in a pillar of salt. Because they're very very salty people after studying neuroscience.


It is, in fact, established scientific knowledge. The normal progression of brain development is pretty well documented, and this is the last center of the brain to develop. If you can point to research that contradicts this statement, I'd be very interested, because the last research I looked into only better defined, rather than refuting, prior findings.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> It is, in fact, established scientific knowledge. The normal progression of brain development is pretty well documented, and this is the last center of the brain to develop. If you can point to research that contradicts this statement, I'd be very interested, because the last research I looked into only better defined, rather than refuting, prior findings.


Cognition is more complicated than brain fold convolution, hence it is not scientific fact that teenagers have poor executive function.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Cognition is more complicated than brain fold convolution, hence it is not scientific fact that teenagers have poor executive function.


So, no research you're aware of that contradicts what past research showed?


----------



## Yokozuna514 (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> My comment about them being incomplete is quite literal. The portion of the brain responsible for (among other things) reasoning through consequence is the last portion to develop. For most males it finishes developing in the mid 20's, and a bit earlier in most females.


Hahaha, I think the issue I have is using the words 'incomplete' and 'bad at figuring'.   I don't feel it best describes what we are essentially agreeing upon.  From what I've read today (which is thanks to you) is that the part of the brain that is responsible for 'evaluating' if something is a good idea, is not fully connected.   There is less of the layer of myelin that connects this part of the brain to the rest of the brain.  I suppose you can call this 'incomplete' as it will eventually grow to connect this part of the brain to the rest of the brain however I am still not fully satisfied that the word 'incomplete' properly serves the function of describing what is actually going on.   

I am definitely not a neuroscientist nor am I the perfect wordsmith.   One man's 'incomplete' could possibly describe this very well and that is fine with me.   I am not even sure I could offer a better word or phrase in it's place except 'still in development' but that is just splitting hairs.   Thanks for giving me a reason to read something to better understand this particular subject.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Yokozuna514 said:


> Hahaha, I think the issue I have is using the words 'incomplete' and 'bad at figuring'.   I don't feel it best describes what we are essentially agreeing upon.  From what I've read today (which is thanks to you) is that the part of the brain that is responsible for 'evaluating' if something is a good idea, is not fully connected.   There is less of the layer of myelin that connects this part of the brain to the rest of the brain.  I suppose you can call this 'incomplete' as it will eventually grow to connect this part of the brain to the rest of the brain however I am still not fully satisfied that the word 'incomplete' properly serves the function of describing what is actually going on.
> 
> I am definitely not a neuroscientist nor am I the perfect wordsmith.   One man's 'incomplete' could possibly describe this very well and that is fine with me.   I am not even sure I could offer a better word or phrase in it's place except 'still in development' but that is just splitting hairs.   Thanks for giving me a reason to read something to better understand this particular subject.


And just to add to the info, myelin (among other things, it seems) helps insulate the neural pathways. This appears to reduce cross-talk, essentially improving "signal-to-noise" ratio, so triggers are more consistent. It also appears to increase the speed a signal travels (perhaps because of trigger responses being more consistent - I haven't looked into that part in a long time). Myelin sheathing is apparently a key component of "skill" as it develops in the brain.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, no research you're aware of that contradicts what past research showed?


There is nothing to contradict, like I said.
Here's a fundamental issue: One can research something a bit, come up with assertions about it because there's a commonly held belief about teenagers, and now it's fact. But it isn't. 

Where is your study on teenager's ability to plan ahead and reason? You cannot find me a direct study of such can you?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> And just to add to the info, myelin (among other things, it seems) helps insulate the neural pathways. This appears to reduce cross-talk, essentially improving "signal-to-noise" ratio, so triggers are more consistent. It also appears to increase the speed a signal travels (perhaps because of trigger responses being more consistent - I haven't looked into that part in a long time). Myelin sheathing is apparently a key component of "skill" as it develops in the brain.


This suggests that focus is easier in adults. But, big life decisions are about wisdom and the big picture along with a sense of proportion. Hence how is it skill related? 
If martial arts should or should not affect your entire being and perspective of people and the world might not be a question an adult asks, but one a teenager asks. Does the increase of myelin after development ends suggest it's a trait of rigidity and lack of adaptability? That one has stopped evolving and growing? How does more cross-talk and slower impulse travel affect perspective, adaptability, wisdom?
What goes into a plan, or reasoning? Should one even be planning something? What is relevant to any plan? Even the task of planning is up for question, so how can reduced cross-talk be good? Sometimes you want one specific thing done when planning, thinking, reasoning, but much of the time one wants the big picture and essential question.
Bottom line: There are many ways to get the same thing done.

How much does high IQ study and practice effect the brain? If you look at a brain of a student in Calculus III, going to math competitions and doing well in all high level classes, what kind of differences do you see compared to an average adult and teenager brain?


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I love the term @Tony Dismukes gave me for those of us who aren't professionals in MA: hobbyists. I think thinking of it as a hobby makes it easier to understand what happens. Most of us have a hobby other than MA. For some of us, we are REALLY serious about that hobby. For some of us, it's just something we like doing well enough to be worth the work it entails to keep doing it, and we get pretty good at it just by enjoying the process. Sometimes that hobby even turns out to be something we can make a career/business out of.


This is a really good perspective. I'll keep this in mind going forward. Thanks for the insight.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> There is nothing to contradict, like I said.
> Here's a fundamental issue: One can research something a bit, come up with assertions about it because there's a commonly held belief about teenagers, and now it's fact. But it isn't.
> 
> Where is your study on teenager's ability to plan ahead and reason? You cannot find me a direct study of such can you?


This would be the first time you asked for such. I should have some time after work tomorrow to dig through journal references to find you something.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> This suggests that focus is easier in adults. But, big life decisions are about wisdom and the big picture along with a sense of proportion. Hence how is it skill related?
> If martial arts should or should not affect your entire being and perspective of people and the world might not be a question an adult asks, but one a teenager asks. Does the increase of myelin after development ends suggest it's a trait of rigidity and lack of adaptability? That one has stopped evolving and growing? How does more cross-talk and slower impulse travel affect perspective, adaptability, wisdom?
> What goes into a plan, or reasoning? Should one even be planning something? What is relevant to any plan? Even the task of planning is up for question, so how can reduced cross-talk be good? Sometimes you want one specific thing done when planning, thinking, reasoning, but much of the time one wants the big picture and essential question.
> Bottom line: There are many ways to get the same thing done.
> ...


This again sounds like you're trying to seem profound. You ask a set of rapid-fire questions, most of which are not really related to anything I've said. And the rest seems to be you just not understanding the purpose of myelin, nor the aside about skill development.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 20, 2021)

Diagen said:


> There is nothing to contradict, like I said.
> Here's a fundamental issue: One can research something a bit, come up with assertions about it because there's a commonly held belief about teenagers, and now it's fact. But it isn't.
> 
> Where is your study on teenager's ability to plan ahead and reason? You cannot find me a direct study of such can you?


It's common knowledge within the field, and most of the studies on it are old (as in 10-20 years old), specifically because the research had already been done, so all that would need to be done afterwards is repeat studies to confirm the originals. Which probably exist, but are tougher to find. What you are arguing against was essentially an established fact (backed by multiple studies I'd have to find again) in my undergrad and post-graduate studies in psychology, including, and in the internships and jobs I had related to applied developmental psychology.

Development of orbitofrontal function: Current themes and future directions

This is probably a bit old for you (2004), but if you're truly interested in it, this article references a lot of different studies from the chronological beginning of the studies on brain development. Which, again if you're truly interested in learning about it, is the place to start. Without understanding the historical context of research, and what's already been determined, a study of, say, _4 groups: Teenager with peers, Teenager without peers, Adult with peers and Adult without peers, playing a videogame involving running red lights while hooked up to an EEG _probably won't have all that much meaning while going on about both the tangible results and the different brain activity that's observed. But shows exactly how teenage decision-making and risk-inclination is much more effected by their peers than adult decision-making and risk-inclination.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's common knowledge within the field, and most of the studies on it are old (as in 10-20 years old), specifically because the research had already been done, so all that would need to be done afterwards is repeat studies to confirm the originals. Which probably exist, but are tougher to find. What you are arguing against was essentially an established fact (backed by multiple studies I'd have to find again) in my undergrad and post-graduate studies in psychology, including, and in the internships and jobs I had related to applied developmental psychology.
> 
> Development of orbitofrontal function: Current themes and future directions
> 
> This is probably a bit old for you (2004), but if you're truly interested in it, this article references a lot of different studies from the chronological beginning of the studies on brain development. Which, again if you're truly interested in learning about it, is the place to start. Without understanding the historical context of research, and what's already been determined, a study of, say, _4 groups: Teenager with peers, Teenager without peers, Adult with peers and Adult without peers, playing a videogame involving running red lights while hooked up to an EEG _probably won't have all that much meaning while going on about both the tangible results and the different brain activity that's observed. But shows exactly how teenage decision-making and risk-inclination is much more effected by their peers than adult decision-making and risk-inclination.


Thanks for popping in with this. I don't keep my hands in this area as much as I used to, so digging up relevant studies would have taken me some real effort.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> lol why are you afraid of being made fun of in your own head or online for talking about conquering fear? Are you afraid of relating to it, does that make you vulnerable?


😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Whether it sums up my attitude or not, I am trying to see other's point of view the entire conversation. If you want to approach something from a different angle I am game. Most people tend to be rigid in their point of view, hence why I would be somewhat confrontational. Most people are not confrontational or overly confrontational without much explanation and perspectives are not easily changed this way.
> 
> You admit that in this conversation you have made claims I have generally refuted or used to clarify my position, yes? And in the end it adds to the discussion even if the participants find it gives their mind an indian burn?


You aren't actually confrontational, you are in fact quite mundane and predictable.
You put me in mind of a young military person not long out of training who has been sent on a course and has back to their unit bursting with enthusiasm to explain to the old hands all about something they've not just been taught but actually experienced.
The rest of us, the old hands, smile indulgently as you teach your grandma to suck eggs because we don't want to discourage you. However if you go over the line into arrogance and rudeness you get slapped down and put in your place so basically our attitude depends on you.

In other words, no, you haven't given anyone anything to think about let alone give their mind an Indian burn, whatever that may be, caused a few yawns though.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This again sounds like you're trying to seem profound. You ask a set of rapid-fire questions, most of which are not really related to anything I've said. And the rest seems to be you just not understanding the purpose of myelin, nor the aside about skill development.


I am talking about what you're talking about and trying to interpret the data, what's the issue? 
You say nothing I say is relevant but it is. You:


> "This appears to reduce cross-talk, essentially improving "signal-to-noise" ratio, so triggers are more consistent. It also appears to increase the speed a signal travels (perhaps because of trigger responses being more consistent - I haven't looked into that part in a long time). Myelin sheathing is apparently a key component of "skill" as it develops in the brain."


And my first line:


> "This suggests that focus is easier in adults. But, big life decisions are about wisdom and the big picture along with a sense of proportion. Hence how is it skill related?"


You talk about signal to noise ratio but what is determined to be noise and what is determined to be signal? Adults can become so one-track that they lose all perspective, is this superior?
How am I being irrelevant? Are we having a discussion or sharing literature? There is discussion here about why teenagers quit early and I am trying to develop perspective. 
Big life decisions are indeed about wisdom and the big picture, and how it connects to what one really wants and how one makes sense of things including the meaning of life. How is that irrelevant? It is part of the discussion because I've made it part of it. Of course teenagers want something meaningful.

How do you think inconsistency in signal responses or feedback affects thinking and perspective? Along with the increase cross-talk, the reduced myelin suggests what in terms of the way it shapes a person? The brain of a teenager experiences less consistent or irrelevant feedback on everything it does, there is constant cross-chatter and signals move exposed and slower. Perhaps they can be more self-aware of how others see their thoughts or use creative reasoning because of this? What do you think? Perhaps they are more associative in their reasoning and doing? Perhaps they are more individualistic due to the lack of consistent 'trigger' and sense of disassociation or non-linearity in their own thinking?

With this in mind, what do you think would attract and motivate them? It seems like a good place to start.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> It's common knowledge within the field, and most of the studies on it are old (as in 10-20 years old), specifically because the research had already been done, so all that would need to be done afterwards is repeat studies to confirm the originals. Which probably exist, but are tougher to find. What you are arguing against was essentially an established fact (backed by multiple studies I'd have to find again) in my undergrad and post-graduate studies in psychology, including, and in the internships and jobs I had related to applied developmental psychology.
> 
> Development of orbitofrontal function: Current themes and future directions
> 
> This is probably a bit old for you (2004), but if you're truly interested in it, this article references a lot of different studies from the chronological beginning of the studies on brain development. Which, again if you're truly interested in learning about it, is the place to start. Without understanding the historical context of research, and what's already been determined, a study of, say, _4 groups: Teenager with peers, Teenager without peers, Adult with peers and Adult without peers, playing a videogame involving running red lights while hooked up to an EEG _probably won't have all that much meaning while going on about both the tangible results and the different brain activity that's observed. But shows exactly how teenage decision-making and risk-inclination is much more effected by their peers than adult decision-making and risk-inclination.


You can't assume that brain structure is responsible though, which none of you seem to register is the central point of my argument. Yes I understand and have agreed that the brains of teenagers are still developing but if external factors demanded a more adult brain they would adapt. If teenagers had to live on their own after they reached puberty you would see different brain structures and different social structures preparing them and adapting them to an adult life before they reach 12 or so, and teenagers would be less affected by peer pressure and more adult in every way.

You can't arbitrarily decide that circumstance has no part in the physiology of their brain. I don't care how many others do it, you can't do that if you want to have insight and true knowledge. In this sense you've bent to the pressure of "common knowledge" haha! Ironic.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> You aren't actually confrontational, you are in fact quite mundane and predictable.
> You put me in mind of a young military person not long out of training who has been sent on a course and has back to their unit bursting with enthusiasm to explain to the old hands all about something they've not just been taught but actually experienced.
> The rest of us, the old hands, smile indulgently as you teach your grandma to suck eggs because we don't want to discourage you. However if you go over the line into arrogance and rudeness you get slapped down and put in your place so basically our attitude depends on you.
> 
> In other words, no, you haven't given anyone anything to think about let alone give their mind an Indian burn, whatever that may be, caused a few yawns though.


Maybe you speak more than you mean so you think everyone else is the same.
More to the point: Nice of everyone to refuse engagement with anything I say hence no god damned discussion. Just have the damned conversation holy F


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

The egoic arrogance of old men can be insane. You are trying to defend your social status, pride and position on an online forum and rejecting the "least costs, most benefit" information I share with the most credibility: kneesovertoesguy; ALONG with everything else I'm saying. I can't say a single damn thing without all of you demanding some groveling in order to establish my position in this god forsaken forum as below all of you. It's CHIMP INSTINCT. Ridiculous.
If somesuch is agreeable then just say so instead of attacking my character with your crap. I'm trying to get a discussion going not chum it by the watercooler.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You can't assume that brain structure is responsible though, which none of you seem to register is the central point of my argument. Yes I understand and have agreed that the brains of teenagers are still developing but if external factors demanded a more adult brain they would adapt. If teenagers had to live on their own after they reached puberty you would see different brain structures and different social structures preparing them and adapting them to an adult life before they reach 12 or so, and teenagers would be less affected by peer pressure and more adult in every way.
> 
> You can't arbitrarily decide that circumstance has no part in the physiology of their brain. I don't care how many others do it, you can't do that if you want to have insight and true knowledge. In this sense you've bent to the pressure of "common knowledge" haha! Ironic.


I'm guessing you didn't read through that article and the cited research within, since they do reference causes and (I believe, if the study I'm thinking of was referenced) adaptability. Again, all of it has been studied and proven.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I am talking about what you're talking about and trying to interpret the data, what's the issue?
> You say nothing I say is relevant but it is. You:
> 
> And my first line:
> ...


Please cite your sources as well as your professional qualifications.

Then please stop with the quasi scientific claptrap then write good, plain English. Read George Orwell's  6 rules for writing from his essay 'Politics and the English Language"

Looking at the example of the teenager who offered money to get their black belt it has nothing to do with his teenage brain and all to do with the fact his parents were making him do martial arts, something he found abhorrent and was obviously not motivated to train at all, after all why would he, I certainly wouldn't but then my parents didn't force me into activities I wasn't suited to or weren't interested in. They did however encourage me to do the things I loved doing. 

In my country we have hundreds of thousands of teens actively and diligently working (and enjoying) activities ranging from sports, dance, horse riding, Cheer (now officially recognised by the IOC) to uniformed groups.This is because of inspiring adults taking the time to engage with young people and seeing the possibilities. What these adults don't do is whinge about young people.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2021)

Double post 😕


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Maybe you speak more than you mean so you think everyone else is the same.
> More to the point: Nice of everyone to refuse engagement with anything I say hence no god damned discussion. Just have the damned conversation holy F


I mean everything I say.
We cannot engage with someone who is writing in such a manner as to make his meaning unintelligible.


Diagen said:


> The egoic arrogance of old men can be insane. You are trying to defend your social status, pride and position on an online forum and rejecting the "least costs, most benefit" information I share with the most credibility: kneesovertoesguy; ALONG with everything else I'm saying. I can't say a single damn thing without all of you demanding some groveling in order to establish my position in this god forsaken forum as below all of you. It's CHIMP INSTINCT. Ridiculous.
> If somesuch is agreeable then just say so instead of attacking my character with your crap. I'm trying to get a discussion going not chum it by the watercooler.



Case in point, this doesn't make sense at all. Egoic means referring to the ego not an inflated who though I think yours is on hyperdrive at the moment, I'm not sure what social status and position you think we have, you don't know us. Pride? Nope I don't see any of that. What I do see is someone who is getting frustrated because others aren't accepting that he knows better than anyone here.

Grovelling is spelt this way, 'somesuch'?


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 21, 2021)

*dis·cus·sion*
/dəˈskəSH(ə)n/
The action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas

a conversation or debate about a certain topic.plural noun: 

a detailed treatment of a particular topic in speech or writing.

*ar·gu·ment*
/ˈärɡyəmənt/

1.an exchange of diverging or opposite views, typically a heated or angry one."

2.a reason or set of reasons given with the aim of persuading others that an action or idea is right or wrong.


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> That's not gibberish. Talking online would be replaced with intense training if one were most serious about it.
> Most people's training doesn't matter for life and death because their training doesn't prepare them for it. Training isn't a life or death scenario usually but that doesn't mean one can't imagine it so, what's your point?
> You don't know the potential of martial arts or training but it seems like you assume you do.


If you're saying most people don't train for life or death situations, I think most people here have said similar in the past.  Speaking just for myself, I don't think that's the big issue.  The issue I see is that you believe you do train for life or death.  I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about this.  I am very curious how you believe you do that.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I mean everything I say.
> We cannot engage with someone who is writing in such a manner as to make his meaning unintelligible.
> 
> 
> ...



Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.

Look at this:



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm guessing you didn't read through that article and the cited research within, since they do reference causes and (I believe, if the study I'm thinking of was referenced) adaptability. Again, all of it has been studied and proven.


They REFERENCE Adaptability and Causes.
This means that the words were used and you, Monkey Turned Wolf, did not care to understand what the hell the context in the literature was. What a lazy response. They talk about the functional role of some brain morphology and you think that connects to what is being discussed but it doesn't.

What an unserious response with all the dressings of one. haha! Not one person here appears to be serious about brain morphology nor martial arts nor guiding others!

The planning required in martial arts is not difficult in the least if we're talking a controlled environment like a dojo where you just obey the damn instructor and show up each day or week. Why does anyone need to plan for that? There is no risk involved. Injury is not death. Serious injury is not likely at all. Serious injury does not prevent one from working, studying, thinking, interacting with others. The ones most at risk are those that use their body to work. The ones that don't use their brain for subsistence basically are at risk of poor decision-making. _At the same time_ I see very little knowledge of injury prevention and receptivity to training that may reduce injury on this site. Kneesovertoesguy, bulletproof your knees, fix your joint pain, develop mobility and strength in stretch; NOPE! Not much interest. 
This suggests an irony: People here ARE NOT SERIOUS about MA, and NOT SERIOUS about this topic. They talk about being guides and pin shortcomings on students or the lack of seriousness but THEY are the problem. You can put me in the same lot as the rest of you if you want!

All that I am asking is to connect MARTIAL ARTS to what is important for the development of the person. How could you have recognized this you may wonder? You could have seen the thread title then read me asking and positing how martial arts is important to teenagers and how current dojos or gyms DON'T motivate teenagers or ANYONE AT ANY AGE over and over again.

The topic should be about WHAT MAKES SOMEONE SERIOUS ABOUT MARTIAL ARTISTS and whether any of you are even serious about MA.

The developmental stage can inflect what is important to one. That's why I engaged with that topic when it was brought up. But the reason teenagers or anyone drops martial arts isn't brain morphology. Brain morphology isn't the big ticket that'll explain how or why people are interested in martial arts or why they show up then just leave.

One group of MA wants to draw blood, street fight, et cetera. Another group just wants to learn self-defense and how to protect people. Another wants to fight in matches and tournaments. 
You only have a PASSION for MA if you LIKE TO FIGHT though. If you have a passion for MA it must be because you love fighting and conquering your enemies. There is no exception. It is brutal, barbaric and primitive. No one believes otherwise. If you do MA for another reason you just won't become very good, and you really have no passion for it. Maybe protecting others drives you to a degree but those with passion always find great thrill in fighting. Soldiers have limited use for MA and will not invest everything into it. Their seriousness or passion is outside the scope of MA, it is merely a part of their toolkit.

If MA is just something you use and developed as part of your life or part of your true passion (soldier) you are not passionate about MA it is just a hobby or tool to you.
People like Mike Tyson get quite a thrill out of fighting. He loves it. He's passionate for destroying his enemy. For conquering. For testing his strength against another. You might say otherwise but you'd be wrong. You'd be wrong about those passionate about MA: Every single one wants to fight, test their strength, test their meddle, defeat their opponent, be the victor, gain the spoil. Or they're hobbyists.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> If you're saying most people don't train for life or death situations, I think most people here have said similar in the past.  Speaking just for myself, I don't think that's the big issue.  The issue I see is that you believe you do train for life or death.  I'm genuinely interested in hearing more about this.  I am very curious how you believe you do that.


I don't think my training is adequate but I'm willing to discuss how one properly does so and PART of my method is to push against everyone's presumptions about MA, physical fitness, survival, and on relevant tangents.

Easy point I can make: What do you all do for injury prevention and general athleticism? I hear talk about running from fights but I don't see any talk on how one develops that athleticism. You can't train if you're injured. I haven't found anyone that took up the kneesovertoesguy material despite a lot of views. I've seen resistance to such training though haha!

There's a general lack of self-consistency and seriousness, or the consistency of seriousness, in all the martial artists here which I am trying to confront so it can be remedied which should culminate in a consensus on what constitutes proper MA training and a proper martial artist.


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.


I'll just paste a quote from Tony Robbins.  He said, "Engaging people is about meeting their needs, not yours."  So, maybe you aren't trying hard enough?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'll just paste a quote from Tony Robbins.  He said, "Engaging people is about meeting their needs, not yours."  So, maybe you aren't trying hard enough?


Man I am fighting to be heard here.


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I don't think my training is adequate but I'm willing to discuss how one properly does so and PART of my method is to push against everyone's presumptions about MA, physical fitness, survival, and on relevant tangents.
> 
> Easy point I can make: What do you all do for injury prevention and general athleticism? I hear talk about running from fights but I don't see any talk on how one develops that athleticism. You can't train if you're injured. I haven't found anyone that took up the kneesovertoesguy material despite a lot of views. I've seen resistance to such training though haha!
> 
> There's a general lack of self-consistency and seriousness, or the consistency of seriousness, in all the martial artists here which I am trying to confront so it can be remedied which should culminate in a consensus on what constitutes proper MA training and a proper martial artist.


Well, I'm interested to hear what you do to mitigate some of these shortcomings in your own training.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Well, I'm interested to hear what you do to mitigate some of these shortcomings in your own training.


The exercises in kneesovertoesguy 7 mobility checklist are pretty damn good. I do them.


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The exercises in kneesovertoesguy 7 mobility checklist are pretty damn good. I do them.


Okay, sorry.  Not being super clear.  I'm really interested in how you train for life or death and where you believe other people fall short.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay, sorry.  Not being super clear.  I'm really interested in how you train for life or death and where you believe other people fall short.


I have spent much time preparing before walking around every corner, checking every blind spot, looking for blindspots, keeping aware of surroundings and not just looking around (ears, mental sense, exerting sensitivity), forcefully adapting my eyes to darkness when walking from a bright place to a dark one or keeping my eyes from going night blind when looking at bright lights at night or in a dark space, looking into shadows and hard to see places when going about and looking for hiding spots, keeping in tension the thought that someone I'm talking to might attack or charge, visualizing various life or death scenarios some of them complicated and trying to figure out the timing and ignorant "first drafts" of every move and energy level I responded with (resulting in adrenaline, cortisol, half contracted moves in body, that sort of thing), I am hard on myself, and I learn everything I can.
I don't think people do the mental and sensory side of things enough. I don't think people understand social dynamics too well when aggression is involved. I don't think athleticism and physical power is well studied by martial artists generally, nor do they train enough. I don't think toughening techniques are well developed or trained generally. I don't think weathering is considered - hot, cold, dry, wet. I don't think people know how to recover from fights or spars too well and that's no good haha, certain training lends itself to such but no one would believe me.
I don't think people that throw away what's good for them know jack **** about life or death. It's a far off concept to them. There is no necessity driving their martial arts training or they would be receptive.

I got plenty of knowledge it just takes a couple weeks to see the benefit of this or that method. One is for recovery and general development: high #s of Burnout sets. This is a considerably neglected training method given it's braindead simple. It builds passive muscle tone (muscle is defense), real toughness, mind-body, energy, endurance, and strength. Makes oak. Somethings are so braindead and rare I think cowardice and weakness rules the human soul. The thing about doing more and more burnout sets is that after you hit a strength bottom your strength starts to return until you have near infinite endurance. Why does no one know this haha? I don't have to be crazy to do it it just is way too easy it makes no sense.
The reason I haven't done anything is because I want to take a fat dump on everyone when I go from 0 to Hero using my methods. Does this place have training logs?


----------



## Steve (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I have spent much time preparing before walking around every corner, checking every blind spot, looking for blindspots, keeping aware of surroundings and not just looking around (ears, mental sense, exerting sensitivity), forcefully adapting my eyes to darkness when walking from a bright place to a dark one or keeping my eyes from going night blind when looking at bright lights at night or in a dark space, looking into shadows and hard to see places when going about and looking for hiding spots, keeping in tension the thought that someone I'm talking to might attack or charge, visualizing various life or death scenarios some of them complicated and trying to figure out the timing and ignorant "first drafts" of every move and energy level I responded with (resulting in adrenaline, cortisol, half contracted moves in body, that sort of thing), I am hard on myself, and I learn everything I can.
> I don't think people do the mental and sensory side of things enough. I don't think people understand social dynamics too well when aggression is involved. I don't think athleticism and physical power is well studied by martial artists generally, nor do they train enough. I don't think toughening techniques are well developed or trained generally. I don't think weathering is considered - hot, cold, dry, wet. I don't think people know how to recover from fights or spars too well and that's no good haha, certain training lends itself to such but no one would believe me.
> I don't think people that throw away that's good for them know jack **** about life or death. It's a far off concept to them. There is no necessity driving their martial arts training or they would be receptive.
> I got plenty of knowledge it just takes a couple weeks to see the benefit of this or that method. One is for recovery and general development: Burnout sets. This is a considerably neglected training method given it's braindead simple. It builds passive muscle tone (muscle is defense), real toughness, mind-body, energy, endurance, and strength. Makes oak. Somethings are so braindead and rare I think cowardice and weakness rules the human soul.
> The reason I haven't done anything is because I want to take a fat dump on everyone when I go from 0 to Hero using my methods. Does this place have training logs?


Okay, but how do you know whether any of those things you've done are helpful?  I still don't understand.  What if all of those things you're doing just make you feel like you're more safe, but don't actually help?  How do you know otherwise?  

I'll be very honest.  About half of what you're posting seems pretty crazy to me, but about half are things many people here have said before.  

Also, I think you're underestimating the amount that athleticism and physical power has been discussed.  Some folks disregard it, but most don't.  While important, those are traits that are there whether you train in an MA or not, and can be developed outside of MA.  So, as a 260 lbs BJJ black belt said, you don't train BJJ to show everyone how strong you already are.  You're there to learn technique.  

Last thing, since you mention it, and to be honest, I'm almost afraid to ask.  What do you know about life or death?  How do I know you're not a self defense snake oil salesman like a few others around here?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> They REFERENCE Adaptability and Causes.
> This means that the words were used and you, Monkey Turned Wolf, did not care to understand what the hell the context in the literature was. What a lazy response. They talk about the functional role of some brain morphology and you think that connects to what is being discussed but it doesn't.


If you read my point of posting it, it was that it had a lot of things that they reference, with the sources to look into it further. I'll ask again: Did you do that? Did you read both the article, and the articles they reference?

I'm going to assume no, since if you had to fully digest it all would probably take a week or longer. Regarding being too lazy to understand the context of it-again, both my undergraduate and post-graduate degrees, along with most of my professional life, were in this exact science. I have studied all of these. There's no point in having a discussion with someone who clearly lacks the foundational knowledge, so I will wait until you gain that knowledge before replying further.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay, but how do you know whether any of those things you've done are helpful?  I still don't understand.  What if all of those things you're doing just make you feel like you're more safe, but don't actually help?  How do you know otherwise?
> 
> I'll be very honest.  About half of what you're posting seems pretty crazy to me, but about half are things many people here have said before.
> 
> ...


I don't think I'm safe man that's part of it haha! If you feel safe you're doing it wrong.

Don't trust everything I say, good rigorous and constant testing is what it's all about. For instance: dry brushing for skin toughness (and health). Sure you could scrub your body with a cactus bristle brush every day for 30 minutes for a year but that doesn't mean it'll help. If you upgrade to something a bit stiffer when you're ready though, you know that there's incremental progression and you have TOUGHER skin, maybe not tough enough to be useful though. That one is the least likely to be done and least likely to reach a high level since people don't want to do it. It's great for circulation and skin health of course it's not like you're scratching yourself. The skin toughens while being healthy it just takes time.
Much of this is just logical and about incremental progression so no claim is being made that it's a complete formula for success. The point is that you cannot succeed relying on convention and an individual instructor at some dojo or gym. You must develop your own mental and rational faculties to discern, and your own mental and emotional strength to succeed. And physical strength of course.

If something objectively improves your abilities then you know it objectively improves your abilities nothing more. MA is complicated we have to look out for knowledge, techniques, and ways of improving.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you read my point of posting it, it was that it had a lot of things that they reference, with the sources to look into it further. I'll ask again: Did you do that? Did you read both the article, and the articles they reference?
> 
> I'm going to assume no, since if you had to fully digest it all would probably take a week or longer. Regarding being too lazy to understand the context of it-again, both my undergraduate and post-graduate degrees, along with most of my professional life, were in this exact science. I have studied all of these. There's no point in having a discussion with someone who clearly lacks the foundational knowledge, so I will wait until you gain that knowledge before replying further.


But the topic isn't about your field of study; if you had comprehension of how it connects to the topic; and topics I've brought up to try and further discussion of the topic; you would have made those connections and furthered the discussion but you couldn't do that could you? So we're making it about your field of study instead of trying to figure out how this helps us answer the original issue which is lack of seriousness and commitment to martial arts and the general progression of martial artists. I would just love that sort of god damn reply but it's impossible for you to pull yourself out of your ****.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 21, 2021)

Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression: a report of the Vietnam Head Injury Study - PubMed
					

Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational...




					pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
				




Here is the standard of behavioral study. I mean it's just soulless decomposition without constructive and critical thinking. They have 279 Vietnam veterans with frontal lobe injuries, and their control is 57 veterans without frontal lobe damage.
Of course the veterans with frontal lobe damage are angry. If you broke your collar bone you would want to punch or swat anyone that touched it. If someone MAKES YOU USE what has been wounded they get angry; if you workout and are sore as hell you will get angry when someone wants you to do something when you just want to take it easy.
What do you think happens to a fighter? Their whole body and head gets beat up. Now what do they do? They're angry.

Veterans: You damage their head and they will be verbally aggressive. You hit a part of their brain responsible for language like the parietal lobe and maybe they become grammar nazis or have a special hatred for a certain genre of fiction. Maybe saying things a certain way, a certain way of constructing sentences or whatever inspires hatred and anger. You hit a part of their brain responsible for sight and maybe they stare you down, maybe they are aggressive in their visualization of things and what they try to percieve in their environment (looking in shadows, looking at bright things to adjust the eyes). Maybe the sight of something disrupts their visual field so much so they go and break it, tear it down.
What happens with veterans in general? They get angry. Injury or not they're aggressive so how the hell does this study even make sense? Something viscerally bothers them so they get angry. If you had a domestic abuse victim what kind of response would they give after a frontal lobe injury? Fear? Deference? Haha!

Just a bunch of loose data nothing more. Brain is alive and used like a muscle. Every person in every field thinks their field is the best and is incredibly well developed. Everyone that thinks they're well developed is a fool, and everyone ties their ego to their field of study so their field of study must be well developed, right?

If you know people you know the con! _Use your brain, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and one avoids it. Use your body, or injury, atrophy and ignorance settles in and you avoid it. _


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 21, 2021)

Our class used to be packed too but since the COVID pendemic occur it got lesser we have more adult class then kids class but our kids and adults class are motivated


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 21, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression: a report of the Vietnam Head Injury Study - PubMed
> 
> 
> Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational...
> ...



I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again

Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?

From the article you linked

"*ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas*."

*Ventromedial prefrontal cortex*

As for training for "train for life or death"; I can tell you from experience when the bleeding heroin addict comes charging at you, or the mental health patent looks at you and says "I like you, but the voices are telling me to kill you", or someone points a gun at you, or the pro-wrestler hopped on who knows what puts his head down and charges like a bull, or two guys much bigger than you are having a fight and it is your job to wade in and break it up..... not a lot prepares you for that other than the actual incident itself... best advice...stay calm, time for panic is when its over, and anger rarely helps. Does fitness help, sure does, but there is a whole psychological side to that that you can't always train for.

I will admit, in my youth I did take Bruce Lee's advice about thinking what you would do if you were attacked RIGHT NOW!!!!! but no need to be paranoid about it. And if this little back and forth in this thread is frustrating you and making you angry, IMO, you need to work on that. Anger is rarely the answer, not that it can't be, there are times it is, but it is not the go to emotion in most confrontation.  .


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.
> 
> Look at this:
> 
> ...


Brother, you've told us that your "training" involves pretending to be in severe danger all the time, purposely creating severely unhealthy paranoia and anxiety within yourself at all times and imagining danger, strengthening your neck, chewing rough things, not actually having done any martial arts training with a teacher, learning from the apparent best on YouTube (which is absolutely no substitute at all for in person training in regards to fighting), mentioning the kneesovertoesguy quite a bit (he is great I agree, bulletproofing your body is important, but actually not 100% necessary for fighting), and also tried to boast saying "I bet I could lift more than you."

I don't mean this to be disrespectful at all, but this is something we have encountered here before. You know some things about some things. But this seems to be where we're at. We have some INCREDIBLE martial artists on here, from all walks of life, and with vast experience. They are not hiding behind some authority complex, nor some TMA grandeur. But it's odd that you refuse to listen to those who actually have immense experience that could actually benefit you.

I'm hoping you can see where I'm coming from, but if not, all the best.


----------



## Unkogami (Jul 22, 2021)

The above demonstrates the fact that the problem isn't a lack of serious MA but a lack of _real_ MA.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Frontal lobe injuries, violence, and aggression: a report of the Vietnam Head Injury Study - PubMed
> 
> 
> Knowledge stored in the human prefrontal cortex may exert control over more primitive behavioral reactions to environmental provocation. Therefore, following frontal lobe lesions, patients are more likely to use physical intimidation or verbal threats in potential or actual confrontational...
> ...



Ok, firstly you know nothing about veterans. Absolutely nothing. In general we do not get angry, having seen and experienced the things we have makes us actually more laid back. We know what's important in life, when you're close to losing your life it gives you perspective. We aren't anymore aggressive than civilians, we can however control our aggression  and use it purposefully. I also resent the fact you chose to make the comment about domestic abuse victims in  the same paragraph as if trying to correlate veterans and domestic abuse in some weird way.

And, talking about weird, your behaviour really is not normal nor is it healthy but I think you know that because part of your problem is that you are failing to convince us it's a good thing and validating your off the wall views so you are getting increasingly frustrated and angry resulting in you abusing people here. 

Lastly, you are spouting complete nonsense, I hope it's just for our benefit because heaven help you if you actually believe it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I am talking about what you're talking about and trying to interpret the data, what's the issue?
> You say nothing I say is relevant but it is. You:
> 
> And my first line:
> ...


There's a lot of "perhaps" in that. All of which is, so far as I can tell, wishful supposition. 

The signal-to-noise issue isn't about anyone deciding which is which - it's about the neural system being able to transmit an intended signal. If you can't get why that's important, I don't think there's much I can do.

Most of the rest of what you say here is just you trying to say something positive about teenagers by comparison to adults. This leads me to believe you somehow take developmental stages as persona attacks. Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. Full stop. That's not an insult to you or anyone else - just a thing that is.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You can't assume that brain structure is responsible though, which none of you seem to register is the central point of my argument. Yes I understand and have agreed that the brains of teenagers are still developing but if external factors demanded a more adult brain they would adapt. If teenagers had to live on their own after they reached puberty you would see different brain structures and different social structures preparing them and adapting them to an adult life before they reach 12 or so, and teenagers would be less affected by peer pressure and more adult in every way.
> 
> You can't arbitrarily decide that circumstance has no part in the physiology of their brain. I don't care how many others do it, you can't do that if you want to have insight and true knowledge. In this sense you've bent to the pressure of "common knowledge" haha! Ironic.


No. Brains don't evolve like that. That's not at all how evolution works. And that's not how human development works, either. The brain takes time to fully grow (like the rest of the body), and putting people in adult circumstances doesn't dramatically change that development pace. Some teens will develop a bit faster naturally, and they will do better with those decisions. Some teens learn better decision-making skills, but that's independent of the brain's physical development.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Every discussion of martial arts or any topic is borderline rehearsed. How is there any engagement with what is said? Are you serious? It's the same tropes repeated over and over again, or braindead copy pasting that has no relevance to the central point of what is being talked about. There is about nil intellectual ENGAGEMENT. ENGAGEMENT IS THE WORD. Just random copy pasting and regurgitations that missed what I was actually saying and HOW IT RELATES TO THE TOPIC OF LACK OF SERIOUS MARTIAL ARTISTS.


So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Easy point I can make: What do you all do for injury prevention and general athleticism? I hear talk about running from fights but I don't see any talk on how one develops that athleticism. You can't train if you're injured.


This is a good point for discussion.

Firstly, everything in our training is some kind of compromise. The most effective training for developing fighting skill is also the most likely to cause injury. So we all have to choose the level of training intensity and risk that fits our risk tolerance and priorities. And if we want to train hard, we need that athleticism you talk about. When I was training hard (in my 20's and 30's), the classes provided most of the athletic fitness I needed. We had a reasonable warm-up (including light stretching and strength work), and doing that for up to 15 classes a week did a lot for me. I supplemented with pretty intesnse strength training once a week.

Unfortunately (probably because of my love of running early in my life, with little stretching) my leg flexibility has never been as good as I'd like. Even with all the stretching I did back then, I could never get my hips loosened, and hamstrings never got much past being able to easily touch the ground. Perhaps if I'd been in a style that had more intensive stretching (most kicking styles, of course, have more focus on leg flexibility), then I'd have gotten further. 

So when I teach, I push a bit more on the fitness and flexibility than my instructors did. I wish I had the level of knowledge some of the other members here do - I could do a better job.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.



Not quite sure which forums those are 😂 they sound prickly.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again
> 
> Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?
> 
> ...


Why are you responding as if I did not say myself that they are more aggressive.
The fact is that when you read into it all you're getting is that they have a damned attitude. They are verbally aggressive. How the hell does this suggest dysfunction. The control are other veterans without brain damage, but how much damned action did they get in Vietnam? For all we know, because the study doesn't say so, they had a peaceful experience of war.
Nothing about the study can be used because there is just so little information and all we get is the fact that people getting a blast from something head-on tend to be more aggressive. Amazing! _*"Let's manage, control, and direct people's lives fast and loose with facts like these!"*_
Maybe certain people that have to use their frontal lobe often are angry and aggressive verbally. Do I need a study to know this? Hell lovely no. But all of you have 0 common sense or awareness of the world so I better help ya'll out: Gamers. Incredibly angry and verbally aggressive. Video games are intensive to the frontal lobe though. They are in fact intense to the entire brain depending on the game genre. Most studies do not really differentiate different genres in their study and draw conclusions on video games as a whole. The fact is that it is intensively frontal lobe though, including first-person shooters: Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition

The only issue is interpretation of the data. You have Veterans that are more aggressive according to their family and friends. Okay! Now how did they get their head wound? They saw carnage, they are actively trying to shoot people, and an explosion went off and shrapnel went through their head most likely. Possibly a bullet went through their helment and into their skull. Okay! Why the hell do you think they have an angry damned personality? How the hell can you lobotomize yourselves and prostrate before a "study" when it just takes using your own brain to figure out what's going on?

Do any of you even read what I say or do your eyes gloss over because none of what I'm saying seems to be mentally and thoughtfully engaged with. It's like talking to chat bots. AI. Computer software. Nothing is registering.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Brother, you've told us that your "training" involves pretending to be in severe danger all the time, purposely creating severely unhealthy paranoia and anxiety within yourself at all times and imagining danger, strengthening your neck, chewing rough things, not actually having done any martial arts training with a teacher, learning from the apparent best on YouTube (which is absolutely no substitute at all for in person training in regards to fighting), mentioning the kneesovertoesguy quite a bit (he is great I agree, bulletproofing your body is important, but actually not 100% necessary for fighting), and also tried to boast saying "I bet I could lift more than you."
> 
> I don't mean this to be disrespectful at all, but this is something we have encountered here before. You know some things about some things. But this seems to be where we're at. We have some INCREDIBLE martial artists on here, from all walks of life, and with vast experience. They are not hiding behind some authority complex, nor some TMA grandeur. But it's odd that you refuse to listen to those who actually have immense experience that could actually benefit you.
> 
> I'm hoping you can see where I'm coming from, but if not, all the best.


"Boasting "I could lift more than you" " You could think that but that's not it at all. Just because I use the words doesn't mean I am boasting ffs. The old guy was trying to assert I know nothing without engaging or conceding on anything, while posturing as a good, informed, established martial artist himself. My point was on basic physical ability and I didn't think he had even basic fitness down with his complete dismissal of the point.

I could listen but I hear no reasoning. Just " I am good you are not. You are ego. I am good." Every time I try to mindfully and intellectually engage with what's being said and bring up basic points of MA to talk about them I get "You are bad I am good kneesovertoesguy just Youtube. Youtube bad."

If they're great fine. They cannot communicate or sort their thoughts on the topic of MA at the very least.


----------



## dunc (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I have spent much time preparing before walking around every corner, checking every blind spot, looking for blindspots, keeping aware of surroundings and not just looking around (ears, mental sense, exerting sensitivity), forcefully adapting my eyes to darkness when walking from a bright place to a dark one or keeping my eyes from going night blind when looking at bright lights at night or in a dark space, looking into shadows and hard to see places when going about and looking for hiding spots, keeping in tension the thought that someone I'm talking to might attack or charge, visualizing various life or death scenarios some of them complicated and trying to figure out the timing and ignorant "first drafts" of every move and energy level I responded with (resulting in adrenaline, cortisol, half contracted moves in body, that sort of thing), I am hard on myself, and I learn everything I can.
> I don't think people do the mental and sensory side of things enough. I don't think people understand social dynamics too well when aggression is involved. I don't think athleticism and physical power is well studied by martial artists generally, nor do they train enough. I don't think toughening techniques are well developed or trained generally. I don't think weathering is considered - hot, cold, dry, wet. I don't think people know how to recover from fights or spars too well and that's no good haha, certain training lends itself to such but no one would believe me.
> I don't think people that throw away what's good for them know jack **** about life or death. It's a far off concept to them. There is no necessity driving their martial arts training or they would be receptive.
> 
> ...


Hi
What style do you train it for this kind of objective?
The old Japanese systems do cover the points you make. There are methods for walking along a street, turning corners, entering a room and so on. These can be intertwined with etiquette also
However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment. This is actually a very pleasant and free way to go about life, but feels quite different to how you describe your training
I'm a bit worried that if one is actively scanning for the assassin in every shadow then you'll end up with quite a stressful life that takes it's toll on one's mental well-being
Similarly there are a lot of ways to toughen your body. These fall into the traditional methods (eg conditioning parts of your body for strikes and other attacks, or learning how to receive attacks to minimise their impact) which again are well transmitted in say the old Japanese styles and modern methods such as weights, diet and cardio (not that the traditional systems don't have these, but probably the modern methods are better)
In terms of training for life or death: Naturally the techniques one trains will be different compared to folk training for sport. In my experience the old Japanese systems do a good job of teaching these
Hope that helps and would love to know what style you train in
Thanks


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Why are you responding as if I did not say myself that they are more aggressive.
> The fact is that when you read into it all you're getting is that they have a damned attitude. They are verbally aggressive. How the hell does this suggest dysfunction. The control are other veterans without brain damage, but how much damned action did they get in Vietnam? For all we know, because the study doesn't say so, they had a peaceful experience of war.
> Nothing about the study can be used because there is just so little information and all we get is the fact that people getting a blast from something head-on tend to be more aggressive. Amazing! _*"Let's manage, control, and direct people's lives fast and loose with facts like these!"*_
> Maybe certain people that have to use their frontal lobe often are angry and aggressive verbally. Do I need a study to know this? Hell lovely no. But all of you have 0 common sense or awareness of the world so I better help ya'll out: Gamers. Incredibly angry and verbally aggressive. Video games are intensive to the frontal lobe though. They are in fact intense to the entire brain depending on the game genre. Most studies do not really differentiate different genres in their study and draw conclusions on video games as a whole. The fact is that it is intensively frontal lobe though, including first-person shooters: Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition
> ...



First, calm down, everyone is not attacking you, and I did read what you said. And if you re going to make statements on a web forum and claim to be wanting a discussion, then one should not expect blind following of what they say. 

But like I said, you need to reread that. And you need to actually read what I said. I am not responding like you did not say they were more aggressive. But you are making a blanket statement and saying control was veterans without brain damage and that is incorrect based on the article you posted. 

*ventromedial lesions consistently demonstrated Aggression/Violence Scale scores significantly higher than controls and patients with lesions in other brain areas*."

They used control of other patients with other areas of bran damage as well. Basically I think you are either misunderstanding the article you posted or misrepresenting it to make a point

And a good friend of mine was a tunnel rat in Vietnam, no brain damage, but was wounded and that messed him up pretty good to. However he did not come home overly violent, he came home an alcoholic. Friend of mines brother-in-law was also in Vietnam, no brain damage, but had very violent episodes for several years whenever he felt threatened

Also "zero common sense", interesting statement...have you had to deal with aggressive bleeding heroine addict, drugged up pro wrestler, violent mental health patients and having guns pointed at you, I have...survived it too.....you claim to be wanting a discussion, but it appears what you want everyone to agree with you completely or you will start insulting those that dare question you.... Interesting


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Ok, firstly you know nothing about veterans. Absolutely nothing. In general we do not get angry, having seen and experienced the things we have makes us actually more laid back. We know what's important in life, when you're close to losing your life it gives you perspective. We aren't anymore aggressive than civilians, we can however control our aggression  and use it purposefully. I also resent the fact you chose to make the comment about domestic abuse victims in  the same paragraph as if trying to correlate veterans and domestic abuse in some weird way.
> 
> And, talking about weird, your behaviour really is not normal nor is it healthy but I think you know that because part of your problem is that you are failing to convince us it's a good thing and validating your off the wall views so you are getting increasingly frustrated and angry resulting in you abusing people here.
> 
> Lastly, you are spouting complete nonsense, I hope it's just for our benefit because heaven help you if you actually believe it.


The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.

Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?

What experience do you have with anger in others? You state you have plenty of anger you just have the discipline to focus it. How many people have you knocked out? How many other veterans do you know of have knocked people out? I'm not trying to target veterans and I'm not claiming they abuse their spouses or whomever. Anger doesn't mean it's uncontrolled like you said. Purposeful anger is dangerous though, right? And if things pass a certain threshold the soldier can be a real killer; this is RAGE. It is focused, enduring rage. Even if your rage is at immorality it is rage. Even if it's to protect others it's rage. You can't deny that there exists the rage and/or aggression to _protect_ at least.

Angry people tend to be high-functioning people. They exert pressure, they put in effort, they USE THEIR FRONTAL LOBE and whole brain and body and get some result. It doesn't matter if the high functioning is for video games - they are good at what they do. Best example I can think of because it's very mental, quite frontal lobe, and the toxic aggressive culture is known. It doesn't matter if you think it's a meaningless thing to be very good at because it is what it is and anger is part of that. You try and get something done but are obstructed: you get "frustrated". Frustration is a form of anger no matter what you say. *You focus anger it and it's an effective orientation 'tool'.*

Do you think statistically the ones getting damage head-on are charging in, looking at danger, attacking and aiming more? I would bet that that's the case. That's not something the study considered though, did it? It's not brought up as a possible explanation, they don't reference a study contradicting the thought, it's not even on their 'radar'.




Xue Sheng said:


> I really don't want to get into this...but huh????? You may want to read that article summary again
> 
> Do you know what ventromedial lesions of the prefrontal lobe means?
> 
> ...



Anger is motivation without purpose. The more anger you have the more you can focus and sublimate it for a purpose though. This can be unhealthy but if you're literally in the middle of a fight then it's quite useful. I agree completely that it's quite psychological and panic is bad.
The study mentions aggression scores for lesions to other brain areas but they don't link it in the abstract. Counter: Since the lesions are in other brain areas, arguing and verbal aggression might be more difficult and/ or directed at things other than family and friends. In this post, to Tez, I question whether injury to the front of the brain suggests behavior differences on the battlefield such as moving TOWARDS danger, aiming while being shot at, not taking cover and shooting back instead. This is not accounted for in the study.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> There's a lot of "perhaps" in that. All of which is, so far as I can tell, wishful supposition.
> 
> The signal-to-noise issue isn't about anyone deciding which is which - it's about the neural system being able to transmit an intended signal. If you can't get why that's important, I don't think there's much I can do.
> 
> Most of the rest of what you say here is just you trying to say something positive about teenagers by comparison to adults. This leads me to believe you somehow take developmental stages as persona attacks. Teenagers' brains aren't fully developed. Full stop. That's not an insult to you or anyone else - just a thing that is.


You can't separate one's volition and experience from the physiology that isn't even logical. You would be suggesting that there is a person but that their functioning is incredibly macroscopic without any possibility of getting into the details of their own existing. Sure that might be the case half the time, but in the other half one is getting into more microscopic matters.
I am talking about it and suggesting the difference in function for more macroscopic and personal matters of the individual so how am I not regarding its importance?

Why can't I say something positive about teenagers while emphasising the meaning of my words with the negative connotation to adults? You can say steel is not flexible but you can also say it's strong. Why are you taking what is supposed to be an engaging matter and reducing it to a personal attack? Holy crap a conversation is impossible.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> No. Brains don't evolve like that. That's not at all how evolution works. And that's not how human development works, either. The brain takes time to fully grow (like the rest of the body), and putting people in adult circumstances doesn't dramatically change that development pace. Some teens will develop a bit faster naturally, and they will do better with those decisions. Some teens learn better decision-making skills, but that's independent of the brain's physical development.


Brains do in fact evolve like that and that is in fact how evolution works. If one had to specialize in planning growing up and reach extremely high levels beyond any adult by the age of 15, how the hell would your statement on teenagers' ability to plan make any sense? You contradict yourself and it is an easy catch. Based on your posting patterns you are more caught up in defending yourself than being honestly mindful of the conversation taking place.
You talk about development pace but that is your rigid take because you can't concieve of different convolutions and adaptations taking place thanks to different environmental pressures. Now in terms of just developmental pace alone, yes a teenager can outdo an adult in every metric that's a fact. Whatever their apparent development is and the relevant metrics, a teenager can outdo an adult. *Whatever the purpose of each gradation of convolution isn't entirely know if it isn't critical to function, right? You have to ask what the convolutions are CRITICAL to and if function is the same with a different brain, you have not grasped the nature of it.*
I am confronting your perspective and paradigm here. It's yours. It's not everyone. It's not every scientist's. It's not every cognitive scientist's. Don't assume it is. 
Furthermore: Doesn't matter if it's published in a Journal journals don't take responsibility for their opinions, they just set a research standard and will post all contradicting studies and assumptuous abstracts as long as they meet the criteria of the scientific method. This isn't foolproof either. If the peers are ignorant then the ones being published are too.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> So, I'm assuing from this part of your post that you believe every MA discussion includes these same, tired points about brain development. You must hang out in some very different forums.


Yes actually. Lot of dialogue on scientific literature and subjects, as well as topics like MA.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.
> 
> Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?
> 
> ...




You've not understood what I said at all. I haven't stated I have lots of anger, aggression isn't anger. Aggression I can switch on and off when needed, ask any Regimental Sergeant Major. I am rarely angry. Anger causes you to make mistakes, it blindsides you, it also exhausts you. You never want to go into a fight angry, whether it's a military battle, a bar fight or a competition fight.

You know the military are trained to move towards danger, as are first responders and police.

I'm not sure why you think soldiers are angry lol. As for saying when they get in a rage they are real killers, well that's nonsense. Anyone can kill in the right situation, soldiers ARE trained to kill, the more usual complaint is that they are cold blooded killers which to an extent they are because under fire TRAINING kicks in not anger. The training you've literally had drilled into and practiced takes over your brain and your body.  You go into a state more of calm than anger, mentally checking, observing, going through the actions as second nature. (No, I don't know what part of your brain lol. ) Go in angry and you will die and you will get your mates killed too. Your idea of berserking soldiers is far from the truth. Stop equating anger with aggression, do some research on the military, the modern military. You really have no idea.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This is a good point for discussion.
> 
> Firstly, everything in our training is some kind of compromise. The most effective training for developing fighting skill is also the most likely to cause injury. So we all have to choose the level of training intensity and risk that fits our risk tolerance and priorities. And if we want to train hard, we need that athleticism you talk about. When I was training hard (in my 20's and 30's), the classes provided most of the athletic fitness I needed. We had a reasonable warm-up (including light stretching and strength work), and doing that for up to 15 classes a week did a lot for me. I supplemented with pretty intesnse strength training once a week.
> 
> ...



Yeah I agree, this is a nice break. I also agree that the most effective training for fighting skills is most likely to cause injury. I think loading the max stretch of the muscles, like many top coaches nowadays, improves connective tissue strength and strengthens muscles that are necessary for athletic performance and protection of joints. I am a robot but: kneesovertoesguy. This stuff really helps the back as well, just great for the low back and lower body. Pulls on everything and strengthens it too. There are standards you can establish and make sure everyone meets with proper training method to get them there and this guy is a real coach who learns from Olympic coaches and athletes, and his own athletes.
The good thing about exercises is that you can get a direct improvement to something MA related and everyone can do it at home. 'Bulletproofing' joints is huge too. You have everything wrapped and strapped and the joints are good in the old as well as young. The kneesovertoesguy had tears in his miniscus and didn't have them operated on, just started doing the loaded stretch type stuff and he's good to go now. The exercises can in fact heal damage because you are training them which creates a localized healing and building effect, and you are improving the longevity or infinite use of the joints because you are creating BALANCED FORCES on them. You build muscles that protect ligaments and your ligaments will last. ACL tears are huge and the Nordic Curl is #1 for protecting it but it's a rare exercise. Triple jumper gold medalist used them once a week for 20 years.
Having the best exercise _selection_ is essential. I find the strength standards the kneesovertoesguy sets to be too low but maybe he's just saying crap for Youtube viewers. 25% BW is often the standard but 100% BW on things like the Jefferson Curl for 20 reps seems like a great standard every high level fighter/ martial artist should achieve to be the best. A full 20 Nordic Curls with 25% BW would be relatively difficult but incredibly useful. Every unique development improves the martial artist so that every possible scenario can be overcome. For instance: Strong Nordic curl means fast and strong forward step, moreso than the untrained. It means a heel kick is more effective. It means a lot of things for movement that aren't necessarily obvious.
*
I think experienced martial artists doing these exercises for a couple months and talking about the benefits they get would be the most direct way of assessing their explicit usefulness.*


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Not quite sure which forums those are 😂 they sound prickly.


Very. Or belligerant.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Angry people tend to be high-functioning people.


I'd like to see some support for this claim. The truly angry people I've known were impaired in their ability to function, because of their effect on others. For many of them, it got in the way of career progression. I can think of some notable exceptions, but I suspect you're confusing a personality trait (being quick to flash anger, quick to cool - a common trait among people who tend to be task driven) with generally being angry.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You can't separate one's volition and experience from the physiology that isn't even logical. You would be suggesting that there is a person but that their functioning is incredibly macroscopic without any possibility of getting into the details of their own existing. Sure that might be the case half the time, but in the other half one is getting into more microscopic matters.
> I am talking about it and suggesting the difference in function for more macroscopic and personal matters of the individual so how am I not regarding its importance?
> 
> Why can't I say something positive about teenagers while emphasising the meaning of my words with the negative connotation to adults? You can say steel is not flexible but you can also say it's strong. Why are you taking what is supposed to be an engaging matter and reducing it to a personal attack? Holy crap a conversation is impossible.


I'm not sure you actually said anything intelligible in this.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Brains do in fact evolve like that and that is in fact how evolution works. If one had to specialize in planning growing up and reach extremely high levels beyond any adult by the age of 15, how the hell would your statement on teenagers' ability to plan make any sense? You contradict yourself and it is an easy catch. Based on your posting patterns you are more caught up in defending yourself than being honestly mindful of the conversation taking place.
> You talk about development pace but that is your rigid take because you can't concieve of different convolutions and adaptations taking place thanks to different environmental pressures. Now in terms of just developmental pace alone, yes a teenager can outdo an adult in every metric that's a fact. Whatever their apparent development is and the relevant metrics, a teenager can outdo an adult. *Whatever the purpose of each gradation of convolution isn't entirely know if it isn't critical to function, right? You have to ask what the convolutions are CRITICAL to and if function is the same with a different brain, you have not grasped the nature of it.*
> I am confronting your perspective and paradigm here. It's yours. It's not everyone. It's not every scientist's. It's not every cognitive scientist's. Don't assume it is.
> Furthermore: Doesn't matter if it's published in a Journal journals don't take responsibility for their opinions, they just set a research standard and will post all contradicting studies and assumptuous abstracts as long as they meet the criteria of the scientific method. This isn't foolproof either. If the peers are ignorant then the ones being published are too.


I'm just going to guess you're a teenager, by your claims that a teen can "outdo an adult in every metric". Which you state as fact, and which is complete bunk.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

dunc said:


> Hi
> What style do you train it for this kind of objective?
> The old Japanese systems do cover the points you make. There are methods for walking along a street, turning corners, entering a room and so on. These can be intertwined with etiquette also
> However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment. This is actually a very pleasant and free way to go about life, but feels quite different to how you describe your training
> ...


I do not train a particular style I have taken upon myself to train my mind and be ready.
"However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment." Center of balance is usually what I have more in mind than relaxed and balanced. Endurance is built with tension but is fatiguing; it should be this way though. One should always be ready but training leaves one weak. If one manages the tension then one can endure though. 
I would say, "deep and killing" is the central tenant. It's to be ready to kill and deep in perception and motive so that one may respond however the situation requires. Being ready to avoid a blade or gun is good, but being ready to surprise the attacker right after dodging is better. It's very stressful because it's almost impossible. I do not do this all the time, but I treat my mind like my body. They both suffer the training and struggle to overcome.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Bulletproofing' joints is huge too. You have everything wrapped and strapped and the joints are good in the old as well as young.


I wish it were that easy. Joints cannot simply be wrapped to become good again. If that worked, I'd still be out running long distances, and doing heavy squats at the gym.


----------



## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Why are you responding as if I did not say myself that they are more aggressive.
> The fact is that when you read into it all you're getting is that they have a damned attitude. They are verbally aggressive. How the hell does this suggest dysfunction. The control are other veterans without brain damage, but how much damned action did they get in Vietnam? For all we know, because the study doesn't say so, they had a peaceful experience of war.
> Nothing about the study can be used because there is just so little information and all we get is the fact that people getting a blast from something head-on tend to be more aggressive. Amazing! _*"Let's manage, control, and direct people's lives fast and loose with facts like these!"*_
> Maybe certain people that have to use their frontal lobe often are angry and aggressive verbally. Do I need a study to know this? Hell lovely no. But all of you have 0 common sense or awareness of the world so I better help ya'll out: Gamers. Incredibly angry and verbally aggressive. Video games are intensive to the frontal lobe though. They are in fact intense to the entire brain depending on the game genre. Most studies do not really differentiate different genres in their study and draw conclusions on video games as a whole. The fact is that it is intensively frontal lobe though, including first-person shooters: Action Video Gaming and Cognitive Control: Playing First Person Shooter Games Is Associated with Improved Action Cascading but Not Inhibition
> ...


I must not be understanding you correctly, because it sounds like you're suggesting PTSD is something that a veteran should be able to control themselves.  If that's the case, I just completely disagree.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> First, calm down, everyone is not attacking you, and I did read what you said. And if you re going to make statements on a web forum and claim to be wanting a discussion, then one should not expect blind following of what they say.
> 
> But like I said, you need to reread that. And you need to actually read what I said. I am not responding like you did not say they were more aggressive. But you are making a blanket statement and saying control was veterans without brain damage and that is incorrect based on the article you posted.
> 
> ...


It says, "Controls AND patients with lesions in other brain areas." In the study they state that they pulled the forebrain damage veterans from the VA hospital register/ records but don't claim the controls were pulled from the hospital records. I think the abstract is just connecting to other research without citing it.

If we're trying to clarify alright that's part of the discussion. People use science to justify some assertion all the time though, like phrenology. This isn't phrenology and for all I know phrenology has some basis in reality BUT I think details are details and assertions or conclusions in the abstract are that of the scientist NOT of the study. In this study you see people rating their family and friends back from war with head trauma as more aggressive but sometimes the study isn't well done and you really need to read the methodology itself. It's VERY common that the abstract is full of JUNK and the study itself says VERY LITTLE about anything but scientists are quite presumptuous about the IMPORTANCE and EXPLANATORY POWER of everything they study. Just human nature.



gpseymour said:


> I wish it were that easy. Joints cannot simply be wrapped to become good again. If that worked, I'd still be out running long distances, and doing heavy squats at the gym.


Ah but there are specific weird muscles that protect specific tendons and just one hurting is no-go on the running and squats. Seriously the Nordic curls you should do them no reason not to. You can watch a video on progressions, he talks about using the glutes to get one off a surface then using the hamstrings so there's a proper procedure to use. Can lean against a chair with something holding the feet down (towel with knotted ends under a door with the loop pulled through for instance). Good stuff man. He has something for each ligament and tendon pretty much it's like going to the mechanic.


----------



## dunc (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I do not train a particular style I have taken upon myself to train my mind and be ready.
> "However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment." Center of balance is usually what I have more in mind than relaxed and balanced. Endurance is built with tension but is fatiguing; it should be this way though. One should always be ready but training leaves one weak. If one manages the tension then one can endure though.
> I would say, "deep and killing" is the central tenant. It's to be ready to kill and deep in perception and motive so that one may respond however the situation requires. Being ready to avoid a blade or gun is good, but being ready to surprise the attacker right after dodging is better. It's very stressful because it's almost impossible. I do not do this all the time, but I treat my mind like my body. They both suffer the training and struggle to overcome.


The best kind of training for what you want to achieve is the kind that helps you relax and enjoy life - this not only helps your mind and body be in the right state "if/when the moment arises", but also helps your brain develop correctly. This is one of the great secrets in the martial arts and one that unfortunately very few people understand and master (because it is counter-intuitive perhaps)
I appreciate that I'm only basing this on what you've posted here and I don't know you, but I think you'd really enjoy training in the old Japanese styles if you could find a dojo


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Ah but there are specific weird muscles that protect specific tendons and just one hurting is no-go on the running and squats. Seriously the Nordic curls you should do them no reason not to. You can watch a video on progressions, he talks about using the glutes to get one off a surface then using the hamstrings so there's a proper procedure to use. Can lean against a chair with something holding the feet down (towel with knotted ends under a door with the loop pulled through for instance). Good stuff man. He has something for each ligament and tendon pretty much it's like going to the mechanic.


Nordic curls I can still do, though the knees limit how much weight I can reasonably use. My joint issues are not muscle/tendon/ligament related. It's the actual joint - it's worn out and was never much good to start with (had knee issues from age 16).


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'd like to see some support for this claim. The truly angry people I've known were impaired in their ability to function, because of their effect on others. For many of them, it got in the way of career progression. I can think of some notable exceptions, but I suspect you're confusing a personality trait (being quick to flash anger, quick to cool - a common trait among people who tend to be task driven) with generally being angry.


I mean I get career progression being hurt but if humans don't have to like you it's pretty good. Everyone needs someone to like them so people tend not to be full of rage haha!


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I do not train a particular style I have taken upon myself to train my mind and be ready.
> "However, the key, underlying principle of these methods is to be relaxed & balanced, to have no planned action in mind and to be curious about one's environment." Center of balance is usually what I have more in mind than relaxed and balanced. Endurance is built with tension but is fatiguing; it should be this way though. One should always be ready but training leaves one weak. If one manages the tension then one can endure though.
> I would say, "deep and killing" is the central tenant. It's to be ready to kill and deep in perception and motive so that one may respond however the situation requires. Being ready to avoid a blade or gun is good, but being ready to surprise the attacker right after dodging is better. It's very stressful because it's almost impossible. I do not do this all the time, but I treat my mind like my body. They both suffer the training and struggle to overcome.


I was going to correct you,  tenet not tenant but as I think about it you seem to have a tenant in your brain to come up with the stuff you do, and I find it worrying. I'm concerned that your thoughts are going to lead you to actions which are going to be regrettable on so many levels.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure you actually said anything intelligible in this.


Maybe more on-point: One can notice a loss of functioning or at least a difference of functioning so what you said didn't make sense. If one uses a part of their brain enough for some rigid study like mathematics, becoming a national competitor, what do you think happens to the cross-chatter and myelin sheething? I recall when studying this kind of stuff years ago that cross-chatter decreases with mastery, and you mention the same about skill acquisition in regards to myelin.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm just going to guess you're a teenager, by your claims that a teen can "outdo an adult in every metric". Which you state as fact, and which is complete bunk.


I'm not a teenager but they can. There are completely dysfunctional adults, for one. What metric can a teenager not outdo an adult? Please inform me.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> I must not be understanding you correctly, because it sounds like you're suggesting PTSD is something that a veteran should be able to control themselves.  If that's the case, I just completely disagree.


How do you read that from my words? Is it that if there were no brain basis for their behavior that responsibility for their behavior would fall solely onto their will and person? That's a societal or social matter and amounts to politics and culture. Wouldn't this suggest you want there to be some explanation for their behavior in physiology in order to legitimize a culture and politics of tolerance? Why would you need physiology for that?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I was going to correct you,  tenet not tenant but as I think about it you seem to have a tenant in your brain to come up with the stuff you do, and I find it worrying. I'm concerned that your thoughts are going to lead you to actions which are going to be regrettable on so many levels.


My bad. Tenat, right.
Regrettable to whom?


----------



## Steve (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> How do you read that from my words? Is it that if there were no brain basis for their behavior that responsibility for their behavior would fall solely onto their will and person? That's a societal or social matter and amounts to politics and culture. Wouldn't this suggest you want there to be some explanation for their behavior in physiology in order to legitimize a culture and politics of tolerance? Why would you need physiology for that?


To be honest, I have a very hard time understanding you.  I'm trying.  So, let me just say, I think PTSD is, finally, being accepted as a real issue for many veterans.  It's not a lack of character or bravery, not a result of a weak mind.  Whether it's called shellshock, battle fatigue, or anything else, it's a mental illness like any other illness that can be helped if treated.

I don't know if this is at all relevant to what you posted or not, or if we agree or not.  So, either way, just consider this a statement of my beliefs on the topic of veterans and veteran health.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> My bad. Tenat, right.
> Regrettable to whom?


Tenet.
I don't know the answer but I'm fearful all the same. Your ideas as well as your lack of understanding of what people are saying seems to indicate that you will have problems with people in situations that call for calmness and levelheadedness. Perhaps you do already? Anger on the whole isn't a good thing, few situations if any are solved by ire.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Tenet.
> I don't know the answer but I'm fearful all the same. Your ideas as well as your lack of understanding of what people are saying seems to indicate that you will have problems with people in situations that call for calmness and levelheadedness. Perhaps you do already? Anger on the whole isn't a good thing, few situations if any are solved by ire.


Alright how about this:
Anger can create relevant and beneficial physiological phenomena such as hormones, nervous system 'arousal' (alertness, power, not lust unless that's the situation), et cetera, and seems to help orient and propel one towards a goal. If the 'goal' is unclear, perhaps anger is in the way.
Now do you understand me?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Alright how about this:
> Anger can create relevant and beneficial physiological phenomena such as hormones, nervous system 'arousal' (alertness, power, not lust unless that's the situation), et cetera, and seems to help orient and propel one towards a goal. If the 'goal' is unclear, perhaps anger is in the way.
> Now do you understand me?


 Yes.
And no, that's incorrect in the way you mean it. Anger is not a good thing.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Yes.
> And no, that's incorrect in the way you mean it. Anger is not a good thing.


I don't understand what you mean "incorrect in the way you mean it". If it's true it's true. If it's false it's false.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
Am I incorrect?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I don't understand what you mean "incorrect in the way you mean it". If it's true it's true. If it's false it's false.






Diagen said:


> The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
> Am I incorrect?



Yes you are incorrect.
Anger is a normal human emotion. People get angry over all sorts of things. Look at the so called 'Karen' syndrome, workers shooting fellow employees of those they have grudge against. 
 Others get angry over mistreatment of animals, children, refugees, climate change etc and use that anger to make the world a better place. There's the anger bereaved people feel, it's part of the greaving process.

What you want us to believe is that as martial artists we should be angry to achieve anything, to fight or defend ourselves. You think only anger will produce hormones ( care to inform us which hormones?) and focus. You have no idea though how high achievers are driven, clue... it's not by anger. You have no idea what drive is, I imagine some are driven by anger but that never ends well. Some are driven by passion, some by revenge even, others by wanting to achieve in their field, others because they want things better for themselves and/or others. These aren't angry people. They are people with a purpose, single minded, often quite ruthless at getting what they want. They are clear minded with focus.

'The goal', what is that? 'social things'? 

Clarity doesn't come with anger, the same hormones you laud give you tunnel vision. 

People are people, well rounded people have focus when they need it, they have emotional intelligence, humanity, empathy, righteous anger, a sense of humour and a banging mawashi geri. We achieve what we want to achieve, and if we don't, it's not because we aren't angry.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The topic wasn't even suppose to be what the frontal lobe does but how martial arts means anything to anyone. Everyone more motivated heals better, functions better, for whatever it is they are motivated for, or in the case of anger: Motivation without Purpose. That's anger. It's the all around motivator. Maybe you feel bad because your family wants you to leave and your friends don't want to hang out with you anymore but that doesn't negate the fact that anger is a general motivator. You might not like the demotivating consequences but it is what it is.
> 
> Domestic abuse victims: I am questioning whether a diminutive and fearful person with frontal lobe damage will exhibit anger like a war veteran charging a hill getting a piece of shrapnel from a grenade or artillery lodged in their forehead. I am questioning whether the general affect at time of injury will change the result. Will they be diminutive as a result? Will they be fearful after the injury?
> 
> ...



Anger can be a tool. it should not control. And staying calm is a much better, safer, healthier and more effective way to go.

and might I remind you, you're the one that brought frontal lobe into all of this. If you did not want it discussed then why bring it in?

and I am not denying rage exists, dealt with it personally after a divorce years ago, also sought help dealing with it because I was going to kill someone.

Basically, I don't agree with you and likely won't. And I seriously doubt you are open to discussion so....... have fun tilting at windmills


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> It says, "Controls AND patients with lesions in other brain areas." In the study they state that they pulled the forebrain damage veterans from the VA hospital register/ records but don't claim the controls were pulled from the hospital records. I think the abstract is just connecting to other research without citing it.
> 
> If we're trying to clarify alright that's part of the discussion. People use science to justify some assertion all the time though, like phrenology. This isn't phrenology and for all I know phrenology has some basis in reality BUT I think details are details and assertions or conclusions in the abstract are that of the scientist NOT of the study. In this study you see people rating their family and friends back from war with head trauma as more aggressive but sometimes the study isn't well done and you really need to read the methodology itself. It's VERY common that the abstract is full of JUNK and the study itself says VERY LITTLE about anything but scientists are quite presumptuous about the IMPORTANCE and EXPLANATORY POWER of everything they study. Just human nature.


so...where did the phrenology bit come from...I never mentioned it, the article never mentioned it and it has noting to do with what I said and lesions in other brain areas has nothing to do with phrenology either. You made the statement about veterans without brain injury being the control and by the article you posted that was erroneous.


----------



## Buka (Jul 22, 2021)

I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.

I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.

I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
> Am I incorrect?


Ever met a Gurkha? Best soldiers in the world, fight with a smile on their face and ice in their brain. They are polite, family minded, don't brawl, achieve what they set out to do and are utterly utterly deadly.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Yes you are incorrect.
> Anger is a normal human emotion. People get angry over all sorts of things. Look at the so called 'Karen' syndrome, workers shooting fellow employees of those they have grudge against.
> Others get angry over mistreatment of animals, children, refugees, climate change etc and use that anger to make the world a better place. There's the anger bereaved people feel, it's part of the greaving process.
> 
> ...


You aren't even open to COGNIZING how anger relates to performance how the hell can you know anything about how anger relates to function or force? If emotion has no function or force to you then you're dead wrong. What do you think is behind ruthlessness for that matter? Do you think being cutthroat has no anger driving it? Ridiculous assumptions about achievers, drive, people and anger mate it doesn't even make sense. You talk about anger is if everyone with anger cannot use their brain. What about hate? Can someone with hate use their brain? Your assumptions about the interior of people and what can be accomplished while emotions are involved is really really ignorant.
Incredibly ignorant. What do you know about what people feel? Many intellectuals and goal-oriented people are incredibly angry or hateful, often without expressing it. Many ruthless and cutthroat people are incredibly angry and hateful, without expressing it. What is this false contradiction you have laid out?
Can I not experience multiple emotions? Am I a raging berserker? Are you a peaceful saint? Who the hell can't experience multiple many different emotions at the same time? Who can't be angry and clear-headed? What is this profound insight you claim to have?

How about this: Where is the clarity for Mike Tyson? You know his mind huh? You don't think he's angry and aggressive and brings that into every workout? *Can you tell me how Mike Tyson is doing it wrong?* Keeping the conversation GROUNDED here.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> Anger can be a tool. it should not control. And staying calm is a much better, safer, healthier and more effective way to go.
> 
> and might I remind you, you're the one that brought frontal lobe into all of this. If you did not want it discussed then why bring it in?
> 
> ...


How is it more effective? Mike Tyson. Literally can't get a god damn conversation about that. You all say anger is bad. He uses anger. He's better than all of you. Care to explain? Please.
You are getting heated and want to end the argument haha I am completely open to discussion! We're reaching the point where you're angry and if it continues you'll concede that I'm right or blow the f up!


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Buka said:


> I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.
> 
> I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.
> 
> I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.


I strain to hear the angriest mofos. You should too. Good for the brain, guts, heart and ears. Cheers.
Also yes danger danger. Like Mike Tyson. Who went to jail for rape and was a criminal but one of the greatest fighters.

Conquer anger haha or remain inadequate! Don't be a rapist but get angry how about that. Don't kill because you can't handle rage how about that.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Ever met a Gurkha? Best soldiers in the world, fight with a smile on their face and ice in their brain. They are polite, family minded, don't brawl, achieve what they set out to do and are utterly utterly deadly.


I don't see how ice is much better than fire here in terms of ethics or whatever. They kill their enemies, as you say. Polite, family minded, don't brawl, has nothing to do with me or real value outside of their family. Polite is restraint. Family minded is restraint. Don't brawl is restraint. That's all it is. They think about killing and death every hour every minute of the day I'll tell you that much. I would have to look into it to verify your claim a bit.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Ya'll angry you can't hide behind laughter.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Buka said:


> I have found the louder people yell, the less I am able to hear. I’ve found that with a whisper, the more I have to strain to hear. It’s why I think regular conversational tone works the best over all. Especially when sharing information.
> 
> I also think different personalities create, or lessen, dangers to themselves.
> 
> I also believe long time, hard, honest training builds a lot of things. Chief amongst them, and usually not appreciated, are the olfactory senses. Like the B.S. detector.


I use the BS detector as well it's just that everyone here is somewhere on the meter and the stink spikes at times!


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I strain to hear the angriest mofos. You should too. Good for the brain, guts, heart and ears. Cheers.
> Also yes danger danger. Like Mike Tyson. Who went to jail for rape and was a criminal but one of the greatest fighters.
> 
> Conquer anger haha or remain inadequate! Don't be a rapist but get angry how about that. Don't kill because you can't handle rage how about that.



All of you have a psychological complex against anger. Can't argue for crap. Can't address what I'm saying. Can't fight. Completely inadequate.
The angriest people I've talked to have literally been the smartest. Every time. They get the point of things, they're goal oriented, conversations go places. None of you can move a convo forward in the least you all implode or begin to crack through the shell of "benevolence" with your building anger and just tap out of the convo haha!

I am serious here.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You aren't even open to COGNIZING how anger relates to performance how the hell can you know anything about how anger relates to function or force? If emotion has no function or force to you then you're dead wrong. What do you think is behind ruthlessness for that matter? Do you think being cutthroat has no anger driving it? Ridiculous assumptions about achievers, drive, people and anger mate it doesn't even make sense. You talk about anger is if everyone with anger cannot use their brain. What about hate? Can someone with hate use their brain? Your assumptions about the interior of people and what can be accomplished while emotions are involved is really really ignorant.
> Incredibly ignorant. What do you know about what people feel? Many intellectuals and goal-oriented people are incredibly angry or hateful, often without expressing it. Many ruthless and cutthroat people are incredibly angry and hateful, without expressing it. What is this false contradiction you have laid out?
> Can I not experience multiple emotions? Am I a raging berserker? Are you a peaceful saint? Who the hell can't experience multiple many different emotions at the same time? Who can't be angry and clear-headed? What is this profound insight you claim to have?
> 
> How about this: Where is the clarity for Mike Tyson? You know his mind huh? You don't think he's angry and aggressive and brings that into every workout? *Can you tell me how Mike Tyson is doing it wrong?* Keeping the conversation GROUNDED here.


Sweetie, you need to really, really be quiet now. You are having a tantrum.

You are being over emotional, irrational and acting like a toddler denied a lollipop. 

You aren't talking about other people are you, you are talking about your own anger and are trying to justify how you feel by telling it's good. You are afraid and it's making you angrier and angrier. Whatever situation is making you feel helpless, a common cause of anger like yours, there's help. Remember that.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

If you can't tolerate the powerful emotion of anger how the hell are you going to become a greater fighter? You're all avoiding it.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Sweetie, you need to really, really be quiet now. You are having a tantrum.
> 
> You are being over emotional, irrational and acting like a toddler denied a lollipop.
> 
> You aren't talking about other people are you, you are talking about your own anger and are trying to justify how you feel by telling it's good. You are afraid and it's making you angrier and angrier. Whatever situation is making you feel helpless, a common cause of anger like yours, there's help. Remember that.


Why are you projecting :^)

You're getting angry. Why can't you be angry without self-denial? Everyone gets angry but you can't handle that feeling or direct it towards anything productive. You want to DO something but. . .  can't? Maybe you're just *wrong* then.
It's clear I'm being nothing but logical here and making good points. I don't mean reductive and deductive I mean LOGICAL. BIG BRAIN. I'm being quite damn reasonable.

I get you're old but you could definitely reach a high level at any age and it will increase your longevity in all likelihood. Do you take fish oil or krill oil? Chondroiten and glucosamine? Medicine food mushrooms (legal) ? You gotta. Double dose on the recommended amount, it's food. GREAT stuff. Use the kneesovertoesguy exercises. GREAT stuff will make your joints and body YOUNG. I'll keep coming back to this forum and keep dropping KNOWLEDGE so you and everyone can benefit.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I don't see how ice is much better than fire here in terms of ethics or whatever. They kill their enemies, as you say. Polite, family minded, don't brawl, has nothing to do with me or real value outside of their family. Polite is restraint. Family minded is restraint. Don't brawl is restraint. That's all it is. They think about killing and death every hour every minute of the day I'll tell you that much. I would have to look into it to verify your claim a bit.


I don't have to look them up, I've worked with them, my shift partner was a Gurkha, I have many Gurkha friends. My husband trained with them, he's ex spec forces.  They don't think about killing every hour, you may, in fact I think you do. You are becoming more disturbed with every post.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> If you can't tolerate the powerful emotion of anger how the hell are you going to become a greater fighter? You're all avoiding it.


Maybe we're just not angry at the moment?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> I don't have to look them up, I've worked with them, my shift partner was a Gurkha, I have many Gurkha friends. My husband trained with them, he's ex spec forces.  They don't think about killing every hour, you may, in fact I think you do. You are becoming more disturbed with every post.


Didn't realize you are a woman my mistake in the previous post I assumed you were male so some of it doesnt' apply. I have deleted that section with an edit.
You wouldn't know what goes on in their mind and they wouldn't disturb you with knowledge that death and threat is on their mind so how would you know.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Maybe we're just not angry at the moment?


Then the ones that agree aren't saying so haha! Just lurking.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Why are you projecting :^)
> 
> You're getting angry and turned to some internet catty woman. When's the last time you were in a male space? Why can't you be angry without self-denial? Everyone gets angry but you can't handle that feeling or direct it towards anything productive. You want to DO something but. . .  can't? Maybe you're just *wrong* then.
> It's clear I'm being nothing but logical here and making good points. I don't mean reductive and deductive I mean LOGICAL. BIG BRAIN. I'm being quite damn reasonable.



My dear, I'm not angry  and your remarks don't bother me at all, I'm concerned now that you are irrational.

At best you are making a fool of yourself, at worse you sound like someone having a breakdown.

I was hoping you were trolling which would be a reasonable thing in this day and age, I suspect something else now, and I'm sorry. I'm not going to engage with you again tonight, I'm off to bed but I hope you feel calmer after some reflection.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> My dear, I'm not angry  and your remarks don't bother me at all, I'm concerned now that you are irrational.
> 
> At best you are making a fool of yourself, at worse you sound like someone having a breakdown.
> 
> I was hoping you were trolling which would be a reasonable thing in this day and age, I suspect something else now, and I'm sorry. I'm not going to engage with you again tonight, I'm off to bed but I hope you feel calmer after some reflection.


I will just have to point out that you are biased as a woman. Men generally explode, women implode. It would take a bit more work to get you to agree with me but I can manage that. Perhaps I am breaking out? Exploding upward?
You don't seem to be a fighter so I don't even see the point of this conversation haha! What are you arguing with me for ??


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Who wants to tell him about same sex marriages and female combatants ?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Who wants to tell him about same sex marriages and female combatants ?


You'll never become a great fighter without anger I assure you. It's just a human emotion I don't see the argument at all, seems to be socially or egoicly based without real logic relevant to the topic and goal. Perhaps anger brings something up inside? This is what happens with emotions you see, so it makes sense that you would resist if it brings up something or disrupts your life in a way you can't handle. Just how it works.
Now often times these are circumstances and self-concepts that are challenged by emotions such as anger. You don't want that so you resist the emotion. 
Are the motivations social? "_None of your business!_" haha!


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Now sociological and egoic things can be handled quite simply and that is by HANDLING the anger. You just adapt and conquer it. Simple as that. No need to OVERDO it because that's not the point. If you can berserk on command, full rage and axe swinging, then you have conquered anger to a good degree on the physical level. On the mental level there is also anger and the conquering of such.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I will just have to point out that you are biased as a woman. Men generally explode, women implode. It would take a bit more work to get you to agree with me but I can manage that. Perhaps I am breaking out? Exploding upward?
> You don't seem to be a fighter so I don't even see the point of this conversation haha! What are you arguing with me for ??


Oh bugger it, 
silly boy, I'm a military veteran, served in warzones, spent more time with men than you have, women don't implode, ask any straight man. After I came out I went into another job with the MoD, spent another twenty years with even more men. In the British military same sex marriages are perfectly legal, has been for over twenty years so you shouldn't have assumed I was female.
I've fought full contact karate and kickboxing, I've broken countless fights up, wrestled Fijian soldiers when arresting them. British squaddies fight for fun not through anger. I teach squaddies, MMA and unarmed combat, yep even at my great age. Do not mistake my gender for weakness.

Do not patronise me either pipsqueak, I can KO you in many ways, remember, old and sneaky beats young and fit anyday. I know people, it was my job, part of my military training was as an interrogator and damn I was good 😁. I know the minds of men and women and yours, my dear boy is warped. Now, foxtrot oscar and when you get there foxtrot oscar again.


----------



## MadMartigan (Jul 22, 2021)




----------



## Tez3 (Jul 22, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> View attachment 27046





MadMartigan said:


> View attachment 27046



Here we give people the benefit of the doubt, we read what they have to say, even the children, we try to engage. We try very hard not to be other martial arts forums. As the sign says, 'friendly' .....until there's reason not to be.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> How is it more effective? Mike Tyson. Literally can't get a god damn conversation about that. You all say anger is bad. He uses anger. He's better than all of you. Care to explain? Please.
> You are getting heated and want to end the argument haha I am completely open to discussion! We're reaching the point where you're angry and if it continues you'll concede that I'm right or blow the f up!



You assume to much, I'm not heated at all, and you are only open to discussion if that discussion does not counter, or contradict what  you are saying....I'm not at all angry, just don't see any reason to allow you to waste my time.

Here, read this and maybe you'll understand what happening, click to expand and read the entire quotation



> *From the book - Zen in the Martial Arts by Joe Hyams*
> *Chapter Title “Do Not Disturb”*
> 
> This is from a conversation between Joe Hyams, Sterling Silliphant and Bruce Lee
> ...



You see, you're someone who wants to waste my time and not help me spend it...have a nice day


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Oh bugger it,
> silly boy, I'm a military veteran, served in warzones, spent more time with men than you have, women don't implode, ask any straight man. After I came out I went into another job with the MoD, spent another twenty years with even more men. In the British military same sex marriages are perfectly legal, has been for over twenty years so you shouldn't have assumed I was female.
> I've fought full contact karate and kickboxing, I've broken countless fights up, wrestled Fijian soldiers when arresting them. British squaddies fight for fun not through anger. I teach squaddies, MMA and unarmed combat, yep even at my great age. Do not mistake my gender for weakness.
> 
> Do not patronise me either pipsqueak, I can KO you in many ways, remember, old and sneaky beats young and fit anyday. I know people, it was my job, part of my military training was as an interrogator and damn I was good 😁. I know the minds of men and women and yours, my dear boy is warped. Now, foxtrot oscar and when you get there foxtrot oscar again.


You mistake the existence of independent thought and mind for it being warped. I doubt any of what you're saying has relevance given that none of the people you've known could fight world class. Maybe with years of diligent training and the goal set but as it were none of them were world class and you have no clue what goes into becoming world class psychologically haha! Talk about irrelevant.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You mistake the existence of independent thought and mind for it being warped. I doubt any of what you're saying has relevance given that none of the people you've known could fight world class. Maybe with years of diligent training and the goal set but as it were none of them were world class and you have no clue what goes into becoming world class psychologically haha! Talk about irrelevant.


You make a lot of assumptions. Not very open.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

MadMartigan said:


> View attachment 27046



Accusing someone of trolling or not being genuine is one way of not engaging with what they're saying. Good way to not have any productive discussion: refuse to talk to those you disagree with. You and no one here has found a way of engaging with the points I've raised or questioned their own beliefs. I have addressed everything directed at me.
Again, do any of you know what goes into becoming world class psychologically? Mentally? No. Yet you shut down all thought on the matter. You just give trite rehashed crap about what one should and shouldn't do even though it has gotten none of you to world class. *You can't even tell me what's wrong with the reasonable assertion that anger gets you to the top. All of you are trying to remove anger but top fighters use it.* 
Having my own mind and not backing down doesn't make me a troll it makes you all too stupid to recognize that I have a point. I assume you all have your interior motivations for denying anger, it's anti-social. So is fighting. If you think otherwise you cannot become a great fighter. One literally attacks others. That's fighting. That's just what it is, there is no denying it. You can rationalize all you want but it's a primitive thing.

Just because you want it to be another way doesn't make it so. Use reason all you want but it's faulty. You have to concede that anger is inherent in fighting. *Someone being angry isn't suppose to be humiliating; if I say you're angry it doesn't mean you should be ashamed of yourself, that's the very point I'm trying to make but it's not registering with you lot.* _There are lurkers (readers) that aren't posting that agree though, that's for sure!_


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You make a lot of assumptions. Not very open.


It's easy to contradict me with a single post. If any of you know someone who could beat prime Mike Tyson let me know because I am INTERESTED


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> It's easy to contradict me with a single post. If any of you know someone who could beat prime Mike Tyson let me know because I am INTERESTED


You made the assumption no one here could. No one here can prove either way if we could or not, as Mike Tyson's no longer in his prime.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You made the assumption no one here could. No one here can prove either way if we could or not, as Mike Tyson's no longer in his prime.


I get the critique. Still, one can get an accurate look at performance and start breaking things down and start a conversation! The more rigorous and intensive the better!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> If any of you know someone who could beat prime Mike Tyson let me know because I am INTERESTED


I don't think Mike Tyson has any chance in

- wrestling match,
- ground game,
- sword fight,
- ...


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You made the assumption no one here could. No one here can prove either way if we could or not, as Mike Tyson's no longer in his prime.


Also I have people telling me about their experience and how I'm wrong about anger being useful when Mike Tyson is self-evidently an angry fighter with brutal aggression. How the hell are these people any good? Haha! If they learned anything from amazing fighters they would recognize its use in the better ones. Logically it's safe to assume no one here that was trying to argue with me on the point of the usefulness of anger have any clue what goes into becoming a great fighter.
Now if someone that agrees with me wants to talk about what goes into become the greatest fighter I think we'd hear something very different than the responses I've been getting.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't think Mike Tyson has any chance in
> 
> - wrestling match,
> - ground game,
> ...


Haha sword fight. Okay. In a wrestling match he definitely has a chance man, but you can get 220 lbs BJJ world champs going up against him so who knows, but it's clear as day that physical prowess and aggression or general physicality (athleticism and aggression that you may call assertiveness given that it's wrestling and not striking) is the critical determinant in the outcome. Now for the very explicit and real usefulness of anger: that would boil down to a technical matter as one must employ anger best they may without detriment, and this is different from HATE which has a different sort of force to it. However calm someone seems on the outside the physicality and actions of that person suggests anger and/ or hate. 
With every kind of physicality there is a suggestion of an emotional disposition. Misery and Fear and Worry all lead to a different physicality! To work harder and harder and to be a true martial artist I don't believe it is so much hate, misery, fear, or worry but anger that drives one.

You can say you are not motivated by negative emotions but what are you trying to prove? To lack negativity is dysfunction. If someone kills you and you're okay with that, are you superior? Have you "won"? Is your life better? Negative emotions are what they are haha! It's called being alive. If one says positive is good and negative is bad, they are not addressing the big picture here. I haven't suggested pure negativity or pure positivity even, just that one must orient according to these principles.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Also I have people telling me about their experience and how I'm wrong about anger being useful when Mike Tyson is self-evidently an angry fighter with brutal aggression. How the hell are these people any good? Haha! If they learned anything from amazing fighters they would recognize its use in the better ones. Logically it's safe to assume no one here that was trying to argue with me on the point of the usefulness of anger have any clue what goes into becoming a great fighter.
> Now if someone that agrees with me wants to talk about what goes into become the greatest fighter I think we'd hear something very different than the responses I've been getting.


So only people who agree with you, a non-fighter, can be a good fighter, while all those who don't, must automatically not have any clue about fighting? Impressive.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So only people who agree with you, a non-fighter, can be a good fighter, while all those who don't, must automatically not have any clue about fighting? Impressive.


ADDRESS THE TOPIC
TELL ME HOW this discussion isn't about Mike Tyson, physicality and the Role of Anger. Stop side stepping the actual topic. JFC. MIKE TYSON. PHYSICALITY. ANGER. Please.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> In a wrestling match he definitely has a chance man,


One needs wrestling skill to take his opponent down. Mike Tyson has no wrestling skill.

Old MA masters always said, "In my area, I can ...". Nobody would say, "In all areas, I can ...".


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

I'm here to make progress possible plain and simple. One must think critically about what goes into becoming a great fighter and no one wants to have that conversation. They want someone to TELL THEM how to become better but don't want to FIGURE IT THE F OUT. Where is the dialogue on the topic? On how to improve? *Where is the discourse that creates knowledge and insight?*



Kung Fu Wang said:


> One needs wrestling skill to take his opponent down. Mike Tyson has no wrestling skill.



Well plenty people get by with physicality. Everyone has a baseline level of inate skill and that is higher in those with greater physicality and Mike Tyson has decent instincts. If you have two strong and aggressive men with similar enough weight, and one has more skill, sure. But what are we talking about here? 160 lbs with low strength and a lot of technique? No way. 160 lbs extremely strong and great technique? Okay he has a good chance of winning, I don't know what you call extremely strong and great technique though so who knows.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Well plenty people get by with physicality.


In the striking world, you may be right. In the wrestling world, it's different.

There is always a lucky knock down. There is no lucky take down.

In the wrestling world, technique is 50% and ability is another 50%. You can develop your body to have maximum strength, but if your technique level is 0, you highest score is still only 50.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> ADDRESS THE TOPIC
> TELL ME HOW this discussion isn't about Mike Tyson, physicality and the Role of Anger. Stop side stepping the actual topic. JFC. MIKE TYSON. PHYSICALITY. ANGER. Please.


I'm honestly just poking fun more than anything. But for an actual answer to your first question: There are fighters that don't have anger issues. And then to answer your question here: how is this discussion not about Tyson/physicality/anger? Because the discussion was about trying to figure out why the OP was having difficulty either finding or motivating his students to take training more seriously. If you really want a discussion about that, the best option would be to start a new thread on the topic.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> the Role of Anger.


I was taught to act like a tiger and eat my opponent alive. I have never seen a tiger attacks a deer with anger.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the striking world, you may be right. In the wrestling world, it's different.
> 
> There is always a lucky punch. There is no lucky take down.


In wrestling too, free wrestlers tend to do well enough in MMA on the ground vs BJJ even. Not always but the sheer physicality is huge. Mike Tyson has decent strength in wrestling related areas of the body and decent instinct. Sometimes you in fact get a lucky leg to yank on and twist so you're wrong there mate. A lucky arm, lucky weight shift, that sort of thing. Luck isn't so much what it's about but physicality and ability to capitalize on opportunity though. I agree that the disadvantage from lack of skill can be vast in grappling though, and there's a lot of physicality required you can't get from other training. The strength from grappling is insanely well balanced.
Grappling is peak. Elite. Amazing.



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm honestly just poking fun more than anything. But for an actual answer to your first question: There are fighters that don't have anger issues. And then to answer your question here: how is this discussion not about Tyson/physicality/anger? Because the discussion was about trying to figure out why the OP was having difficulty either finding or motivating his students to take training more seriously. If you really want a discussion about that, the best option would be to start a new thread on the topic.


I think anger is motivation without purpose. If all of it has been generated and purposed then the remaining anger is like an electron ocean in the body and like a fire, crackling and arcing. Such evolved anger is ELECTRIC. This is the way! For THIS is the proper physical manifestation of it for a martial artist and fighter! If you train people and don't engage them emotionally they don't know how they should act and then people don't put anything into it (or else complicate their life without direction) or they quit after a while. EMOTIONAL CONTENT! That is what is necessary for seriousness, for motivation, for direction! *You must have the right EMOTIONAL CONTENT and understand its evolution!*


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I was taught to act like a tiger and eat my opponent alive. I have never seen a tiger attacks a deer with anger.


lol you've never seen a tiger attack a deer man.  You should see their faces sometimes though they're electric and full of anger. Very ferocious man they can look pretty terrifying haha. Read my post above as it relates!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Sometimes you in fact get a lucky leg to yank on and twist so you're wrong there mate. A lucky arm, lucky weight shift, that sort of thing.


If you can get to my leg and I can't get my arm around your neck, your wrestling skill is better than mine. That's not luck. That's skill.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I think anger is motivation without purpose. If all of it has been generated and purposed then the remaining anger is like an electron ocean in the body and like a fire, crackling and arcing. Such evolved anger is ELECTRIC. This is the way! For THIS is the proper physical manifestation of it for a martial artist and fighter! If you train people and don't engage them emotionally they don't know how they should act and then people don't put anything into it (or else complicate their life without direction) or they quit after a while. EMOTIONAL CONTENT! That is what is necessary for seriousness, for motivation, for direction! *You must have the right EMOTIONAL CONTENT and understand its evolution!*


To be clear, this is all your opinion. You have no evidence that this is what should be done. Nor do you have experience doing it or evidence that martial artists do it, so it's a baseless opinion.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> lol you've never seen a tiger attack a deer man.  You should see their faces sometimes though they're electric and full of anger. Very ferocious man they can look pretty terrifying haha. Read my post above as it relates!


Here's the first video I found of it. 



The tiger just makes sure that the deer isn't escaping and literally waits for it to bleed out. Doesn't seem like there's any anger there to me.

Here's a video with a lot of the lead-up. I agree with part-the tiger's terrifying. But not angry. It's calmly, rationally, stalking it's prey waiting for a good position. That's not something you can do when angry.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> full of anger.


Sun Tzu said, "怒不兴兵 - you should not attack when you are angry."

The reason is simple. When you are angry, your emotion dominate your mind. You don't let the environment fact to help you to make the correct decision.

MA is all about planning. When you are angry, you can't plan well. 

When you are 

- not angry, you use groin kick to set up face punch. 
- angry, you just punch to the face. Your chance of success will be low.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can get to my leg and I can't get my arm around your neck, your wrestling skill is better than mine. That's not luck. That's skill.


Right. But physicality develops instincts, reflexes, and one trains the mind while using the body. So one can't say there is anyone without any skill. Sometimes a weakness is perceived but this can only be capitalized on with decent enough instinct and physicality, with decent enough mental presence. So yes, if you have a very good wrestler with decent enough physicality (strong 160 lbs) and even if Mike Tyson is mentally present, looked at some wrestling, and is afraid or hypervigilant rather, someone can take him down.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sun Tzu said, "怒不兴兵 - you should not attack when you are angry."
> 
> The reason is simple. When you are angry, your emotion dominate your mind. You don't let the environment fact to help you to make the correct decision.
> 
> MA is all about planning. When you are angary, you can't plan well.


But anger is not just the kind that clouds the mind but builds a scowl on your face while the mind is clear.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Ya'll angry you can't hide behind laughter.


I'm not in the least surprised  that you can hear the laughter.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Here's the first video I found of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's weak prey though. No competition. Just an easy kill. Misses the point a bit. Ferocity can't be said to "not be anger" IN ESSENCE; only in practical discourse can we say such, to differentiate the two as it is a bit different.

Don't see the restraint and miss the essence. Don't see the transformation and miss what precedes it. Fighters are angry!



Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not in the least surprised  that you can hear the laughter.


After 30 laughter emojis I think my words stand on their own.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> It's weak prey though. No competition. Just an easy kill. Misses the point a bit. Ferocity can't be said to "not be anger" IN ESSENCE; only in practical discourse can we say such, to differentiate the two as it is a bit different.
> 
> Don't see the restraint and miss the essence. Don't see the transformation and miss what precedes it. Fighters are angry!
> 
> ...


I'm just responding to your point about how tigers hunt deer, and saying they do it with anger. This is how they hunt deer-they wait for the best opportunity, strike, and take it down as safely as they can. Not angrily.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> But anger is not just the kind that clouds the mind but builds a scowl on your face while the mind is clear.


So you use your anger face to scare your opponent.

Which one is more scary?

A stab a knife into B's chest with

- angry facial expression.
- no facial expression.
- a big smile on his face.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

*EMOTIONAL CONTENT:*

_Anger_
_Fear_
_Misery_
_Hate_
_Worry_
If you can understand the role each has in a fighter and human in general you can individually conquer each _IN ORDER TO EVOLVE._
_ANGER: _This is for work, explosiveness, motivation, speed, power, quickness of mind, quickness of eye (information and literally).
*If you disagree you're wrong! Everyone who has gained in these metrics has used and experienced anger. You see, you first experience frustration. If you push it, you use and experience anger! Simple as that. *Or you give up and try another time haha! Sometimes the emotions are hidden but they are there folks. It's like arguing over elemental forces.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> *If you disagree you're wrong! *


Glad you finally admit your philosophy. Good luck debating.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm just responding to your point about how tigers hunt deer, and saying they do it with anger. This is how they hunt deer-they wait for the best opportunity, strike, and take it down as safely as they can. Not angrily.


Nah I said sometimes they are absolutely ferocious and have a very angry face. They didn't even show the tiger's face through the process so not sure how your statement works.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> So you use your anger face to scare your opponent.
> 
> Which one is more scary?
> 
> ...



It shapes the person, that's the point. Remember that. Smiley is angry. Maybe he's afraid too. Who knows. People experience multiple emotions at the same time, they're elemental forces.
Anger does not cloud the mind in the way that exercise does not cloud the body: OF COURSE IT DOES. Both cloud. But that's not the point. There is also clearing and the enlivening of the body, and there is the enlivening of structures. This too is anger, because it is force.
Every emotion can be 'purposed' to a physical task. A heavy deadlift may employ anger and one could have fumbled into this reality without much cognizance, right? But it is true. The anger is let off right before or when the deadlift is over and dissipates but it was there. Maybe this is therapeutic. If you have anger and you workout what happens? Relief. Many emotions can be worked through from physical exertions yet to complete the task requires anger. *Sometimes something tragic happens and people are angry. Why? Because anger is forceful. Plain and simple!*


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Glad you finally admit your philosophy. Good luck debating.


lol if I say such and you stop arguing it's not my fault mate.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 22, 2021)

Diagen said:


> After 30 laughter emojis I think my words stand on their own.


Actually, your voice seems rather muffled... I wonder what would cause that?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, your voice seems rather muffled... I wonder what would cause that?


The anger manifests itself finally. Perhaps you will do kneesovertoesguy exercises after a few more days of arguing.


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 22, 2021)




----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The anger manifests itself finally. Perhaps you will do kneesovertoesguy exercises after a few more days of arguing.



No anger there, I think our forbearance with your attitude towards others is merely at an end.


----------



## dunc (Jul 23, 2021)

@Diagen I can categorically state that some of the best fighters in the world do not get angry in a fight - I say this from personal experience
Generally speaking the more complex the situation (and life and death kind of situations are more complex and varied than say a boxing match), the more important problem solving becomes as a deciding factor
The more angry you get the more narrow your perspective (eg tunnel vision) and once that happens in a fight then you're toast
Joko Willink has some great material on this kind of thing if you're interested in exploring it further


----------



## Cynik75 (Jul 23, 2021)

Face of an anger:


----------



## Steve (Jul 23, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> So only people who agree with you, a non-fighter, can be a good fighter, while all those who don't, must automatically not have any clue about fighting? Impressive.





Diagen said:


> ADDRESS THE TOPIC
> TELL ME HOW this discussion isn't about Mike Tyson, physicality and the Role of Anger. Stop side stepping the actual topic. JFC. MIKE TYSON. PHYSICALITY. ANGER. Please.



JFC:  I like the extra crispy.  Oh, sorry.  That's KFC.
Mike Tyson:  Is it true that Mike Tyson did very little strength training?  I will admit it's been a LONG time since I've really thought about Mike Tyson.  But I seem to recall he did a lot of cardio, some body weight exercises, and that's about it.  
Physicality:  Traits are what we're born with.  Skills are what we learn.  As my grandpa used to say, "You can teach a pig to climb a tree, but sometimes it's better to just get a squirrel."
Anger:  Speaking just for me. I don't think it's all that helpful.  In my experience, anger is often the outward expression of something else: inadequacy, frustration, sadness, depression, embarrassment, etc.  When folks get angry, they are doing so because something else is actually going on.  You fix that other thing and you'll be much happier.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The anger manifests itself finally. Perhaps you will do kneesovertoesguy exercises after a few more days of arguing.


So in your mind, a person who finds your silliness to be, well, SILLY, is angry?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Maybe more on-point: One can notice a loss of functioning or at least a difference of functioning so what you said didn't make sense. If one uses a part of their brain enough for some rigid study like mathematics, becoming a national competitor, what do you think happens to the cross-chatter and myelin sheething? I recall when studying this kind of stuff years ago that cross-chatter decreases with mastery, and you mention the same about skill acquisition in regards to myelin.


What you're talking about is literally the process that leads to increased myelin production on a given pathway. I'm not sure why you seem to think this is somehow contrary to anything I've said.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> I'm not a teenager but they can. There are completely dysfunctional adults, for one. What metric can a teenager not outdo an adult? Please inform me.


If you mean it's possible to find a teen who is better than an adult at something, sure. But the likelihood of it is low, since on average, adults have advantages in nearly every area. Young adults have more advanced muscle development than teens and usually better coordination. Adults' brains have completed development and have more defined pathways for the things they do regularly, so are typically better at processing.

There are areas where the juvenile brain has advantages, like neuroplasticity. So teens have an advantage over middle-aged adults in basic learning, though it's unclear how much advantage they have over young adults (who retain more neurplasticity). Specifically, they have an advantage in language learning - it seems the brain loses some ability to develop auditory distinction (the ability to distinguish new language sounds) by early adutlhood.

And teens certainly have an edge (probably even over young adults) in physical healing.

But teens, in general, cannot outdo adults, in general. Group to group, not looking at exceptional cases (because then we'd have to look at exceptional cases in both groups).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> How do you read that from my words? Is it that if there were no brain basis for their behavior that responsibility for their behavior would fall solely onto their will and person? That's a societal or social matter and amounts to politics and culture. Wouldn't this suggest you want there to be some explanation for their behavior in physiology in order to legitimize a culture and politics of tolerance? Why would you need physiology for that?


Are you learning the psychology of the 1950's??


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Alright how about this:
> Anger can create relevant and beneficial physiological phenomena such as hormones, nervous system 'arousal' (alertness, power, not lust unless that's the situation), et cetera, and seems to help orient and propel one towards a goal. If the 'goal' is unclear, perhaps anger is in the way.
> Now do you understand me?


Actually, anger tends to override the part of the brain that focuses on long-term outcomes. So the "goal" anger tends to focus you on is likely not at all the goal you'd choose consciously.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> The people that don't like anger tend to not like achieving much either. You want to talk about martial arts with them and they tend to want to talk about you, themselves, and the world and everything else as well. In other words they don't really have the drive and worry more about social things at the cost of the goal. Their attention is diffuse and wandering.
> Am I incorrect?


Yes, you are.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> for all I know phrenology has some basis in reality


This highlights an issue. It's pretty easy to find out that (and why) phrenology was dismissed long ago. Its predictions don't correlate well with outcomes, and newer models are much better predictively, and align with what we know from following injury case studies.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You aren't even open to COGNIZING how anger relates to performance how the hell can you know anything about how anger relates to function or force? If emotion has no function or force to you then you're dead wrong. What do you think is behind ruthlessness for that matter? Do you think being cutthroat has no anger driving it? Ridiculous assumptions about achievers, drive, people and anger mate it doesn't even make sense. You talk about anger is if everyone with anger cannot use their brain. What about hate? Can someone with hate use their brain? Your assumptions about the interior of people and what can be accomplished while emotions are involved is really really ignorant.
> Incredibly ignorant. What do you know about what people feel? Many intellectuals and goal-oriented people are incredibly angry or hateful, often without expressing it. Many ruthless and cutthroat people are incredibly angry and hateful, without expressing it. What is this false contradiction you have laid out?
> Can I not experience multiple emotions? Am I a raging berserker? Are you a peaceful saint? Who the hell can't experience multiple many different emotions at the same time? Who can't be angry and clear-headed? What is this profound insight you claim to have?
> 
> How about this: Where is the clarity for Mike Tyson? You know his mind huh? You don't think he's angry and aggressive and brings that into every workout? *Can you tell me how Mike Tyson is doing it wrong?* Keeping the conversation GROUNDED here.


The chemical process triggered by anger literally suppresses part of the brain's function.
And hate causes uncontrolled bias that distorts thinking.

Neither of those are good things. We all experience each of them from time to time, but it's difficult to come up with situations where either actually helps.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Jul 23, 2021)

Diagen said:


> But anger is not just the kind that clouds the mind but builds a scowl on your face while the mind is clear.


That's not anger, that's RBF.

Easily mistaken for anger though, and usually because the beholder is the angry one.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jul 23, 2021)

@J. Pickard, shame on you sir, for opening this thread.  See what nonsense you have started??


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

dunc said:


> @Diagen I can categorically state that some of the best fighters in the world do not get angry in a fight - I say this from personal experience
> Generally speaking the more complex the situation (and life and death kind of situations are more complex and varied than say a boxing match), the more important problem solving becomes as a deciding factor
> The more angry you get the more narrow your perspective (eg tunnel vision) and once that happens in a fight then you're toast
> Joko Willink has some great material on this kind of thing if you're interested in exploring it further


Just to be clear I know who Joko Willink is and have seen some of his stuff. 
I would say that emotion evolves and transforms, and that anger is behind hard work, speed, and power, and especially martial arts.  It's like channeling your emotions to the point you don't have them. I hope you understand and relate. At the very very end where you try and get the most out of anger or have it most channeled you get a lot of very useful things you may not recognize as anger due to how "derivative" it is but the source of the river is still there.
Problem solving generally involes the narrowing of perspective on each individual thing, and to focus and do anything requires that sort of anger. Malice can be anger, hate, whatever, but its nature is clear. Now, talking about the proper USE of anger and its transformation is quite interesting! But I think one has to address the paradigm I'm suggesting to have that conversation.
Do emotions turn into a cerebral force? A physical one? A mental one? A social one? A rational one? Do some lend themselves to fighting more? Do some lend themselves to grappling? Do some lend themselves to problem solving? Well for the latter I know that fear or the conquering of it tends to be involved, so how about that? You conquer fears and you get clarity and wiser decision making. It doesn't mean that fear has no role it's just conquered just as a heavy weight may be conquered. A heavy weight is still heavy but you may feel good at how strong you are by its relative lightness. _But anger is explosive and higher internal pressure and this can mean quick decisions_, s*o perhaps one should see how the conquering of anger and conquering of fear work together in a fighter?*


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

Cynik75 said:


> Face of an anger:
> View attachment 27051


Looks more like hate. Think about it. Derision.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

Steve said:


> JFC:  I like the extra crispy.  Oh, sorry.  That's KFC.
> Mike Tyson:  Is it true that Mike Tyson did very little strength training?  I will admit it's been a LONG time since I've really thought about Mike Tyson.  But I seem to recall he did a lot of cardio, some body weight exercises, and that's about it.
> Physicality:  Traits are what we're born with.  Skills are what we learn.  As my grandpa used to say, "You can teach a pig to climb a tree, but sometimes it's better to just get a squirrel."
> Anger:  Speaking just for me. I don't think it's all that helpful.  In my experience, anger is often the outward expression of something else: inadequacy, frustration, sadness, depression, embarrassment, etc.  When folks get angry, they are doing so because something else is actually going on.  You fix that other thing and you'll be much happier.


Explosive movements are considered power training and generally creates both strength and endurance. If you try and move a weight fast as possible your muscles have to contract maximally basically.
You talk about traits but most people don't have the best knowledge, coaches, et cetera and think what they have "is the best" or "there's not much better so why bother". The psychology is more relevant than genetics. Everything in your DNA is expressed depending on factors outside of DNA. Epigenetics is a relevant topic here. Environmental factors, pressures, will affect your epigenetics and thus what DNA is expressed.
I mean what's the point you're trying to make about pigs and squirrels? It's severely conventional for people to give up and then rationalize it like you're doing, to just stick to less. It's not at all conventional for someone to actually FIGHT for something in any meaningful, high willpower way. Haha you're just saying **** those who don't even try say. 
Anger: You're saying crap about "just give up" and "you can't achieve anything" yet talking to me about inadequacy. You gave up all the time and then got angry and then rationalized that _anger is bad_ to completely shut down any attempt at "getting back into the ring". Don't project your twisted rationalizations mate. Your failures are a result of your own emotions and will. Nothing you say or do will change that
Frustration precedes either giving up or going harder and I can tell which you went with.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So in your mind, a person who finds your silliness to be, well, SILLY, is angry?


Man I am trying to have a conversation here and the level of deafness and non-engagement even though you read every single post, then your post that seemed to be some disgusting innuendo all suggests to me how angry you are. In between your attempts at sagacity you're trying to get a grip on your anger before you start to really blow up.



gpseymour said:


> What you're talking about is literally the process that leads to increased myelin production on a given pathway. I'm not sure why you seem to think this is somehow contrary to anything I've said.


You said teenagers can't make sound decisions or be better than adults in any or most metrics that have to do with the brain, so clearly what I say suggests a teenager may be better in any or most objective metrics that you could likely think of. Relevant and contrary!


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If you mean it's possible to find a teen who is better than an adult at something, sure. But the likelihood of it is low, since on average, adults have advantages in nearly every area. Young adults have more advanced muscle development than teens and usually better coordination. Adults' brains have completed development and have more defined pathways for the things they do regularly, so are typically better at processing.
> 
> There are areas where the juvenile brain has advantages, like neuroplasticity. So teens have an advantage over middle-aged adults in basic learning, though it's unclear how much advantage they have over young adults (who retain more neurplasticity). Specifically, they have an advantage in language learning - it seems the brain loses some ability to develop auditory distinction (the ability to distinguish new language sounds) by early adutlhood.
> 
> ...


Well this makes sense but it seemed like you saying at one point that teenagers were incapable of having greater insight and decision making, to the point where they couldn't decide whether Martial Arts was for them or not without going to a dojo/gym. Also, you use the terms exceptional but what percentage what exceptional begin? I mean, is there a mere 10% shift in objective metrics (averaged out) between adults and teenagers? Are some things a mere 5% shift? Others a 0% shift? Are some a 15% shift? Or are we talking big numbers here, 20 - 30%? Are we talking above or below 1 Standard Deviation? I want to know how exceptional these cases are.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Are you learning the psychology of the 1950's??


It's not even psychology, what are you talking about? I'm talking about whether a people or political body should see the behavior of veterans returning from war and be so absolutely stupid that they require physiology to figure out that they're traumatized or "burdened by the war mentally". My point was that no one needs science to understand what is going on in a general sense, _that they have been afflicted mentally and emotionally by what went on in a war._ And one can understand what veterans may want others to know and understand by simply communicating with them. I didn't really mean much else than that.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, anger tends to override the part of the brain that focuses on long-term outcomes. So the "goal" anger tends to focus you on is likely not at all the goal you'd choose consciously.


This is quite wrong. If you intend to do something in the moment then what the hell are you looking at 1 year from now for; as I've said before it's useful for work, power, and speed. You don't need a constant high fidelity view of the long-term goal to get anything done now. If I put a random problem, like a puzzle or something, in front of you you can solve that while being angry and your ability to solve it will not have been hindered if the anger is not so exceptional to your experience you're trying to adapt to it. Many intellectuals are angry as you and I both know. Their anger is often RESTRAINED though, harnessed quite literally. *People who don't identify as angry often get quite lovely angry haha!* They scowl and argue and get tense and clench and confront aggression with terse words and reasoning -- go ahead and tell me that's not a duck. Everyone is trying to convince everyone else they're not angry haha! _Cultural phenomenon I guess._
Now if you want work done, like literal physical work, you can use anger. You can get angry. You get angry at the weights or the ground or whatever. You might not be angry for longer than a half second or whatever moment, but like I've said before anger increases SPEED that means it's QUICK and it can quickly disappear too. It can also be slow to grow, but it tends to be ready to ACT wherever it has grown. Maybe one is angry at a certain sort of thing, like slow drivers. One will get angry when driving behind one perhaps for a split second and then change lanes and speed past them. It still existed for that split second. Sometimes it's a malaise in the background of something. Either way it's ANGER and you can't say emotion doesn't have some physical link. _If it can be HARNESSED to get the desired physicality that's GREAT and one should try and figure that out as a martial artist, no?_ Short-term you want fist to face. Great it moved quicker. I've seen it happen haha just sudden speed out of nowhere from someone that never had that kind of speed! And it was ANGER.
Just to be clear anger and hate aren't the same. You probably agree gpseymour but there are others reading so there it is.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yes, you are.


Spend too much time with top fighters or any high achiever and you will see their angry side. So no, I'm not. Maybe they will try and control it with alcohol, sparring/ a friendly match, a workout, hitting the heavy bag, whatever. But no matter what the hell is on someone's face anger exists and no rationalization will make the emotions of people disappear. Hidden is hidden. Channelled is channelled. Sometimes one has a certain affect on others and there can be a shift of emotions from anger to something else but fighters PROGRESS on ANGER.
No anger, no progress. Simple as that!  Not like they're completely inhuman and other sorts of variables don't come into play though!


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This highlights an issue. It's pretty easy to find out that (and why) phrenology was dismissed long ago. Its predictions don't correlate well with outcomes, and newer models are much better predictively, and align with what we know from following injury case studies.


Ah but I have not done research or understood other possible meaning to what is being studied so I can't say to know or not. In other words maybe a few bumps mean something a bit profound but how would I know?


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The chemical process triggered by anger literally suppresses part of the brain's function.
> And hate causes uncontrolled bias that distorts thinking.
> 
> Neither of those are good things. We all experience each of them from time to time, but it's difficult to come up with situations where either actually helps.


It is not difficult if you actually tried haha but why would you put in that work?
Supressing can mean focus you know that. When you want to move quick what do you think about? Your mother?
Uncontrolled bias means a bias that is let loose. Bull in a china shop. If all you care about is becoming the best martial artist or whatever it is, everything else will be thrown out of the way -- that's one example. If all you care about is lifting the weight then uncontrolled bias of the body (adaptation) for lifting said weight is useful (deadlifter's anatomy).
Uncontrolled bias is literally form, right? Because beginning from nothing you go with a consistent bias and get a resulting form. Same with function. If the uncontrolled bias is to go one direction and make a spiral (angular momentum bias) you get a spring. Is whatever literature you're referring to not compatible with this view?
Every emotion has a use. You will see.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's not anger, that's RBF.
> 
> Easily mistaken for anger though, and usually because the beholder is the angry one.
> 
> View attachment 27052


You can argue the magnitude and blend but they are there mofo. This looks like a mature blend of slight misery, anger and hate, concern or worry and sympathy, and some joy. There are always multiple ingredients in the dish but they are what they are!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 23, 2021)

When you

- were young, you would be angry about very little thing.
- get older, not that many things on earth can make you to feel angry.

A: My older brother can beat you up.
B: My father can beat your brother up.

A: Dear master! Someone said that his teacher can beat you up.
B: You tell that person that he has a good teacher.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 23, 2021)

I hope to clarify my point of view with this post.

Premise - Emotions lend to different kinds and levels of physicality, as well as mental ability or abilities, thus should be used and generated effectively!
I will help frame the discussion with a new set of premises:

Premise 1 - There is the Mental, Physical, Social, Emotional and Rational.
Premise 2 - Emotions lend themself to each of the 5 differently and asymmetrically, but definitely lend themselves to the Physical.
Premise 3 - There are 5 relevant primitive negative emotions and those are Anger, Hate, Worry, Misery and Fear.
Premise 4 - Negative emotions are to do with the physical and base. Negative emotions essentially are one's physicality.
Premise 5 - Positive emotions are to do with physically transcendent and 'spiritual' things. Positive emotions essentially are one's spirit.
Premise 6 - Negative and Positive emotions are basically ignorant of and do not respect each other.

The misunderstanding is the real issue here. I hope this clarifies.
On your point of negative emotions not being prevalent in fighters: People can generate emotion and use it when they please. I can decide to lounge around or go running. But if I train and run every day I will get better at it! Those who do well generating and using negative emotion will be more effective! If you can literally berserk or Hulk Out you can of course be quite effective in relevant physical measures like strength or speed or intensity!

Premise 7 - Negative emotion tends to create physical structures and are sublimated in these in some sense, sometimes extremely so!
Premise 8 - The latent negative emotion is _catalyzed_ by circumstance. This could be quite strict or loose circumstantial causes - meaning, one could fight only when socially acceptable or whenever they're provoked! But the point is that it may be sublimated and stored and brought out by _catalysts_ and constrained by severe structure and logic [Rational]. This really plays into the "Reason dominates Emotion" trope - because it's true! In true Reason there is no Emotion.
Premise 9 - Directly hurt or controlled by Reason and lashing out is _Anger._
Premise 10 - Somewhat hurting and somewhat controlling Reason is Hate and Hate lends itself to Physicality!
Premise 11 - Seeing the self-evident physical we tend to shape our Reasoning to fit such!
Premise 12 - Both Emotion and Physicality generate Physicality though often _different_.
Premise 13 - Physicality is an absolute DRAIN on Emotion! It consumes it!

It's a lot but here it is.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Looks more like hate. Think about it. Derision.



You can't read faces, are unable to understand emotions, can't relate to other people and become frustrated that what you say isn't taken as gospel because you say it. You are also fixated on a single subject. Do you want to tell us why? You don't have to of course but we'd understand better if you did.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> You can't read faces, are unable to understand emotions, can't relate to other people and become frustrated that what you say isn't taken as gospel because you say it. You are also fixated on a single subject. Do you want to tell us why? You don't have to of course but we'd understand better if you did.


You are wrong on each point. We have had disagreement and you are still angry that I have confronted you rather than backdown haha. I am fixated on a single subject because it's the topic of discussion, of which I am relating to the many things you and others have said as well as to different subjects of my own volition. 
If you cannot intellectually engage with the topic do not rationalize your lack of will with some shortcoming of mine.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

Here is an extension of the premises:

_[Premise 13 - Physical drains Emotional.]_
Premise 14 - Social drains Physical.
Premise 15 - Reason drains Social.
Premise 16 - Mental drains Reason.
Premise 17 - Emotion drains Mental.
Premise 18 - Emotion harms or controls Social.
Premise 19 - Social harms or controls Mental.
Premise 20 - Mental harms or controls Physical.
Premise 21 - Physical harms or controls Reason.
Premise 22 - Reason harms or controls Emotion.
*Premise 23 - Humans are Social.*


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

If anyone wants to intellectually engage with these premises go ahead. We can have a discussion, I look forward to it.

Now as it relates to lack of serious martial artists: I don't see there being any progress without clarity and illumination on these matters that I've raised. If humans are weak mentally, shouldn't that be the first weakness that is strengthened? According to what I've posited, this leads to Physical weakness though. Where do we see examples of such? Those that are quite mentally oriented tend to be uninterested in physical or social matters, right? You would find those people in intellectual, creative, philosophical fields perhaps. 
But for a martial artist what is important is *Mental Strength*. This I believe has to do with Endurance, Wisdom and Knowledge; much of our Mind uses knowledge communicated from others to progress but _what about KNOWLEDGE CREATION_? This requires Mental strength. Original problem solving requires Mental strength. This is critical. Wisdom in fighting is of course critical haha. If you can reach a very high endurance relative to maximum intensity, this is also OF COURSE relevant (10 rep max at 90% max load vs 5 rep max at 90% load. Hitting hard beginning to end or just at the beginning. 30 rep max at 80% max load or 12 rep max at 80% max load). *High endurance mean keeping both speed, strength and power up for a longer duration of time as well as at a higher % of max intensity.* I believe this requires MENTAL strength and developing Mental strength DIRECTLY is the intelligent thing to do to obtain these very useful qualities. It connects MIND to BODY and one's Will and Control improves.

Next up is _*Emotional Strength*_.  Of course! Duh! And its generation or existence perturbs the mental and harms or controls the Social! This can mean one fights against authority figures where others don't: Emotionally strong people fight corrupt governments. Can be positive or negative change, who knows! Emotion changes social dynamics. I believe this has to do with dexterity, perception and talent or traits, and general lifeforce. *What controls, has power. * Dexterity includes speed and agility though one needs some basic strength to accomplish any movement. _Lifeforce can mean vitality or recovery or making the most out of being alive_. Decision-making and Planning improves with emotional strength. Quick and perceptive folk tend to have a quick mind and quickly and perceptively manipulate mental models, concepts, facts and that stuff. In other words a quick and perceptive person is a quick and perceptive person. Such folk tend to suffer their own Emotion, being human and all. After adaptation though they are like weeds that keep coming back. . . . they just need to take a break and drink something. Healing is in part due to Emotional Strength. If you break your knee it's not getting better without emotional struggle. You try to use your leg and it hurts, you try and move and it's stiff and difficult, you try and do a squat after the cast is off and you can barely do a bodyweight squat with most weight on the other leg. Everything heals on its own if one's visceral emotional strength is great. There's a lot of room to smile around friends and cry alone, to rationalize, to treat something as purely physical and not emotional - but emotional struggle goes a LONG way in getting about anything done and making the most of opportunity and circumstances. Mental strength often plays second fiddle here but can be the determinant of success as well.

Discussion appreciated. If one can directly train Mental and Emotional Strength and bear these two Aspects in mind then one can succeed or progress.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 24, 2021)

Diagen said:


> You are wrong on each point. We have had disagreement and you are still angry that I have confronted you rather than backdown haha. I am fixated on a single subject because it's the topic of discussion, of which I am relating to the many things you and others have said as well as to different subjects of my own volition.
> If you cannot intellectually engage with the topic do not rationalize your lack of will with some shortcoming of mine.


Sweetie, I'm not angry at all. Your mistake. 

The discussion, as posted by the OP, is 'the lack of serious students' it's not the diagen show, you have monopolised this thread and taken it well off the OP's point. You should have made your own thread to pontificate on. Perhaps the mods could move the posts to its own thread.

I didn't say you had a shortcoming at all, I suspect I'm right in why you are posting the way you are and the signs I mentioned point exactly to what I think you are. It's also why you cannot conceive why you are wrong or even that you could be wrong. This isn't said as an insult or a put down.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Jul 24, 2021)

Daigen, 

Please understand I will use some experiences to try to communicate to you, and explain why some ( most / all ) disagree with you. 

When I was just a young adult male (still forming complete frontal lobe - 18 - 25) , I did security and bouncing work.

Usually it was just name calling and I could easily live with them name calling me as they walked / drove away. 

When it came down to a confrontation , I would usually get scared , not mad or anger, I got scared and the adrenaline would drop. 
I would then Hulk smash to opponent. I would grab them and slam them into something. Being ~6'3" - 192 cm. 
I was about 240 to 250 lbs - 109 to 114 kg. 
People got hurt. 

I realized that this was bad / wrong . 
So I would hesitate. 
Those couple of months I ended up in the hospital and hurt a lot more than previously. 
So I choose to act first. Maybe this makes me the jerk (* insert other bad name here *) , yet anger had nothing to do with this. 
I reacted to the adrenaline and I choose to act and to stay hyper aware. 

Later in life, I was walking up on my vehicle and I saw the front fascia bent in from the bumper of the van that parked in front of it. 
I remember being about 5 feet away and then  pulling my foot out of the quarter panel of the van. I had kicked and caved it in. 
I was angry. I had had tunnel vision. Above examples I did not have tunnel vision. I was angry and could react, but I could have been blindsided and knocked over with a feather pillow from my side of behind as I was not even aware of the kick until it was over. 
In previous , instances I was aware of those around me, and was able to react. 

I lived and was addicted to the Adrenaline response. I could even trigger it myself without an external trigger. 
Yet, living constantly at such hyper awareness including sleeping lightly to hear people entering the house and vehicles outside, so I could react if required, was a huge impact to the body and mind over time. There was no time for recovery. 

Years later when I was going thru a divorce and could not move out, for legal / financial reasons I slept and lived like that. Even before the divorce it was a similar situation. It wore on me. Yes, anger could happen from the lack of control, but the lack of control and anger were by products of the stress on the body of living with the adrenaline all the time. The Hyper Awareness. 
Even the best Special Forces get down time , yes many are still addicted to adrenaline , and race bikes and cars and such, yet they get away from the active and chill for a bit even in a FOB. 

My points are that your anger here with people has been seen before by people who think they have found something that no one has ever realized before. Kind of like the first time a young person finds their genitals have pleasure centers as well. 

Anger may be the term you are using, I believe that Adrenaline and focus are what you are trying to describe. 
Life and death, and the thrill of the hunt and the desire for victory. 
Anger, reduces the focus. 
Intensity and desire do matter. 

Yet, yelling at everyone here, seems to be counter productive to trying to get your point across or get the conversation you wanted. 
Also, with a couple of your points if one disagrees then they are wrong. means you are not open to data. Only to your point, and all have to agree. And you are looking for this agreement to justify your comments and point of view.

I can't tell you what to do. 
Just as you can't tell me what to do. 

I can ask you to think about your points and be open to other opinions and facts and data. 
If not then you most likely will be called out and continued to be treated like you are. Where everyone asks you to justify and provide resources. and such. 

To provide a similar argument to what you have presented:
Real from my life: 
Judge: Mr. Parsons what do you have to say to these charges for the PPO (Personal Protection order) that your Wife has files against you stating you you have done (* Insert violent acts *) .
Me: Your Honor please do not answer this question. When did you stop beating your wife? You see, you cannot answer the question as asked, as one cannot prove a negative. 

Judge: Smiled - and then said How do you recommend we proceed? 
Me: I would ask her to provide evidence, pictures, witnesses, and or medical data. 
Judge: That seems fair, 
Ex: F-You (* to me *) 
Judge: Taking control back and telling her to be civil or be held in contempt and go to jail. 
Ex Lawyer: Your Honor we will review and provide what evidence there is. 
Me: Your Honor she had a broken forearm as a defensive wound in middle school that Child Protective Services investigated from Field hockey. 
Judge: No need to provide evidence at this time. I will strike it from the order and grant it. 

My point for the above example. If you make claims expect people to ask for evidence. 
At least do your best to provide examples from your own life or training. 

Good Luck


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

Tez3 said:


> Sweetie, I'm not angry at all. Your mistake.
> 
> The discussion, as posted by the OP, is 'the lack of serious students' it's not the diagen show, you have monopolised this thread and taken it well off the OP's point. You should have made your own thread to pontificate on. Perhaps the mods could move the posts to its own thread.
> 
> I didn't say you had a shortcoming at all, I suspect I'm right in why you are posting the way you are and the signs I mentioned point exactly to what I think you are. It's also why you cannot conceive why you are wrong or even that you could be wrong. This isn't said as an insult or a put down.


Why are you so dishonest? Did your brain break? "You can't read faces, are unable to understand emotions, can't relate to other people and become frustrated that what you say isn't taken as gospel because you say it."
Haha clearly someone is losing cogency here because that made no sense. You've clearly stated my "shortcomings".

I have conceded or agreed on multiple points with multiple posters and you still think that because I have not given up the discussion that I somehow have not agreed to anything, or am demanding my point of view be completely absorbed without intellectual engagement, disagreement, or discourse? Are you even reading what is happening? You are losing so many threads in this topic hahaha!

You are just argumentative without substance! Would one call that anger or dimentia?

I have agreed that out of control emotion is self-destructive and that emotion must be USED. I also have raised interesting points that you are unwilling to engage with or agree with because you are vacuously argumentative! Read over this conversation if you want clarity, or keep typing if you don't. I am willing to defend or discuss whatever previous posts of mine you bring up! If you want to say what you agree and disagree with in my posts be my guest! If you want clarification on things I've said, be my guest!

Since you have been reading all along you should know that the topic has sparked this discussion? No one here has even asserted they are very serious martial artists trying to become the best, so should all of you stop posting? Do not boil down what I say to whatever is easier for you to address while destroying the meaning of what I am saying. 

The connection of emotion to physicality, or the connection of emotion to mentality or mental ability, and the connection of emotion to sense, speed, reflex, is clearly relevant when martial artists may GIVE UP and STOP PUTTING IN because they think they have to be *completely emotionally detached * or _*PLAYFUL and POSITIVE *_when that makes no god damn sense -- you're trying to destroy the other person! *I am trying to build a framework or paradigm for the ENGAGED and SERIOUS with everyone here.*

There is no "digging in". Not every conversation is open and shut like you may hope Tez3. Just because it's elaborate and I am trying to get more out of it doesn't mean you need to SHUT IT DOWN. Ridiculous.

EMOTIONAL ENGAGEMENT will determine the growth of a Martial Artist. If you don't want to sophisticate the discussion on anger, emotion, mental strength, mentality, and the level of seriousness or diligence and dedication of martial artists then post in another thread. This is a conversation not a structured pre-planned book.

If you are EMOTIONALLY ENGAGED you will get ANGRY or HATEFUL or MISERABLE or FEARFUL or WORRIED. Now, if each of these lend themselves to certain physical manifestations AS I POSIT then OF COURSE IT'S RELEVANT. If one can't deal with negative emotions then THEY DROP THE F OUT of MARTIAL ARTS AND FIGHTING.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> Daigen,
> 
> Please understand I will use some experiences to try to communicate to you, and explain why some ( most / all ) disagree with you.
> 
> ...



I find this very interesting thank you. This is exactly the kind of stuff people can learn from. You are correct that logic is necessary. I agree with what you say that different emotions creates different responses, such that fear creates adrenaline and such creates focus, vigilence. Though often there is a mix of anger and fear but fear keeps us from hesitating. This is an important part. Now, conquering fear is great. If you are a boxer you may want to conquer your eyes blinking when a punch or jab is motioned towards you (a feint) or when it is close but not touching, or keep them open no matter what for any reason. Then you may have your eyes water quite a bit from the exertion. This is good though. It is like a fear response and one must conquer it but not necessarily decrease and dull the "fear" too much as one could damage their eyes by not blinking when something moves towards their eyes in some other circumstance. This is what I mean by "there must be a discussion". It is interesting that instead of fearful blinking one is miserable trying to keep their eyes open. Then, conquering sensation is to do with MISERY? But why is it that when there's a reflex it is MISERY that must occur? See it's interesting! I believe Misery is tied to Reason.


----------



## Diagen (Jul 24, 2021)

Reason - Misery
Mind - Fear
Emotion - Anger
Physical - Hate
Social - Worry

Now according to my thoughts, fear puts pressure on the physical but it's an emotion so it doesn't really kill strength or anything. Now when it's adrenaline or more physical fear it's like a strange mind-emotion-physical combo. Emotion is difficult for any human being and is generally negative hence any time emotions are running high, stress does too. Adrenaline tends to come up for those in anything requiring strong mental presence though -- one can get it from a video game or internet argument haha! But yes, chronic adrenaline can be rather painful. If you no longer want Adrenaline then very diligent mental training is necessary. For humans this is quite difficult I believe. _It is like, one's awareness comes and goes. _Those that go through extreme mental training have an easier time of being aware of their surroundings with perhaps minimal adrenaline to help them. *If anyone disagrees go ahead and we can discuss what it is you disagree with.*


----------



## J. Pickard (Jul 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> @J. Pickard, shame on you sir, for opening this thread.  See what nonsense you have started??


I am shamed.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2021)

Diagen said:


> Why are you so dishonest? Did your brain break? "You can't read faces, are unable to understand emotions, can't relate to other people and become frustrated that what you say isn't taken as gospel because you say it."
> Haha clearly someone is losing cogency here because that made no sense. You've clearly stated my "shortcomings".
> 
> I have conceded or agreed on multiple points with multiple posters and you still think that because I have not given up the discussion that I somehow have not agreed to anything, or am demanding my point of view be completely absorbed without intellectual engagement, disagreement, or discourse? Are you even reading what is happening? You are losing so many threads in this topic hahaha!
> ...



Every post you make confirms what I and others think. What you are writing is your opinion, nothing more.

You aren't a martial artist, you don't train martial arts or fight competively. You are coming from a point of ignorance, you don't train fighters, aren't a sports psychologist, you can't tell us what hormones the body used in stress, you expect everyone to agree with you merely because you said it and scream abuse at people when they question you, you are unbelievably rude to posters, that's not engagement or discussion. Your English is somewhat off as if trying to make yourself sound more educate, no one 'sophisticates' a discussion. 

Accept that what you think is an opinion and there'll a discussion, show your research into your theories, show how you come to the conclusions you have, don't just plant them here expecting experienced fighters and martial artists to just agree with a non fighter, non martial person we've never heard of. Cite your sources and show your proof otherwise you are just another flat earther.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 25, 2021)

So, this is where you are getting your ideas International Handbook of Anger.

You posted it on another thread, it's an academic study complete with citations but you are cherry picking the bits you think you understand. Do you have the book or are you working from the page shown? Not clever to use others work without citing them.


----------



## Cynik75 (Jul 25, 2021)

J. Pickard said:


> I am shamed.


You should be angry


----------

