# Apology and Clarification



## Dale Seago (Jun 28, 2004)

In the late and no doubt unlamented Tenjindo thread, I sort of got into it with Ralph Severe. "Flame wars" are not something I normally involve myself in, and I've comfortably ignored Ralph as harmless for years because I've understood him to be speaking from the perspective of someone outside the Bujinkan. Plenty of people outside the organization slam the Bujinkan, its Soke, its instructors, and its methods, and I don't much care as they're not part of my world.

In the Tenjindo thread, however, Ralph started off by seeming to imply he is a legitimate Bujinkan instructor who had no real knowledge of another instructor nearby who's senior to him (though a 6MB file of his e-budo posts compiled and archived by a judan in Michigan shows that this is not the case). That sort of rubbed me the wrong way, and things went downhill from there. I want to apologize to everyone for that, especially to the moderators: I appreciate the difficulties of their position, as I've been doing the same job myself for several years over at Sword Forum International. 

Since that thread was locked, I've gone ahead and done the obvious thing I should have done earlier, and checked with Japan. The Bujinkan Hombu Administrator asked Hatsumi sensei at Sunday's training if Ralph Severe is currently a member, and Hatsumi immediately replied "No". Had the question been asked about any number of other people, Soke might have had to look up the instructor's file --  however, he knows very well who Ralph Severe is; and as a 15th dan Australian instructor who's been living in Japan the last few years recently commented, "The Japanese do have an idea of what kind of person he is but it is not their backyard. I have never heard his name mentioned in a positive way by any Japanese Shihan or by Soke."

Since Hatsumi sensei says Ralph Severe is a non-member, I can get back to ignoring him.


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## Enson (Jun 28, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Since that thread was locked, I've gone ahead and done the obvious thing I should have done earlier, and checked with Japan. The Bujinkan Hombu Administrator asked Hatsumi sensei at Sunday's training if Ralph Severe is currently a member, and Hatsumi immediately replied "No". Had the question been asked about any number of other people, Soke might have had to look up the instructor's file -- however, he knows very well who Ralph Severe is; and as a 15th dan Australian instructor who's been living in Japan the last few years recently commented, "The Japanese do have an idea of what kind of person he is but it is not their backyard. I have never heard his name mentioned in a positive way by any Japanese Shihan or by Soke."
> 
> Since Hatsumi sensei says Ralph Severe is a non-member, I can get back to ignoring him.


are you ready? are you ready? then lets get it on! hee hee!:mp5:


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## Elizium (Jun 28, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> In the late and no doubt unlamented Tenjindo thread, I sort of got into it with Ralph Severe. "Flame wars" are not something I normally involve myself in, and I've comfortably ignored Ralph as harmless for years because I've understood him to be speaking from the perspective of someone outside the Bujinkan. Plenty of people outside the organization slam the Bujinkan, its Soke, its instructors, and its methods, and I don't much care as they're not part of my world.
> 
> In the Tenjindo thread, however, Ralph started off by seeming to imply he is a legitimate Bujinkan instructor who had no real knowledge of another instructor nearby who's senior to him (though a 6MB file of his e-budo posts compiled and archived by a judan in Michigan shows that this is not the case). That sort of rubbed me the wrong way, and things went downhill from there. I want to apologize to everyone for that, especially to the moderators: I appreciate the difficulties of their position, as I've been doing the same job myself for several years over at Sword Forum International.
> 
> ...


With respect to both guys, I will say this:  I will not make comments over this statement but will watch in future how this may play out.

Now, can we get back to training?


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## tshadowchaser (Jun 28, 2004)

I will make a comment befor this goes any further.

MOD WARNING

Keep this disscussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL.

Take personal wars  to pm or email. 
Feel free to use the ignor option

Sheldon Bedell MT mod
aka Tshadowchaser


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## r.severe (Jun 28, 2004)

It is applauding to find such BS coming from a Bujinkan member as Dale shihan..
I have stated my position.. with this type of human being.
Simple.
Please don't be dishonest.. have integrity, honor, respect... be pragmatic... 

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Don Roley (Jun 28, 2004)

Let us head this off right now.

Dale says that the Honbu administrator asked Hatsumi if Ralph was a member of the Bujinkan or not. Hatsumi said he was not.

Right after a moderator warned us to keep this respectfull, Ralph launches a post accusing Dale of "BS" and being dishonest.

Things are going to go down hill from here.

UNLESS!!!!!!

The guy who asked Hatsumi posts on Kutaki.org. He does not post here, but Dale knows he looks over his shoulder. If Dale lied about what he said, I would expect him to raise the point in a thread over at Kutaki. If he is satisified with the truth of what Dale said, there will be no post. So, try to find a post denying what Dale said by him. If there is none, then the matter is settled and there is no need to scream and yell at each other. Ok?

Heck, you may even start a thread on kutaki if you really care. I think most of us will just believe Dale and the lack of response from kutaki and leave it at that.

There really is no more to say. We can leave it like that and not have any more flame wars. There is no need for accusations and the like.


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## r.severe (Jun 28, 2004)

Here Donny shihan... 
It is applauding to find such immature statements coming from a Bujinkan member of any rank.... in regards to the lies they pass of as truth about any person or persons they do not know or have personal contact with.
I have stated my position.. with the Bujinkan organization and how I personally do not wish to be involved with human beings such as Dale shihan and Donny shihan. These are examples of the organizations members then who would wnat to be a part of it.
Simple.
Please don't be dishonest.. have integrity, honor, respect... be pragmatic... these are qualities I live by... and have not found them in the membership I wish to be a part of... that call themselves Bujinkan shidoshi ho, shidoshi, shihan.
I believe I have made myself clear Donny shihan.
Do you have any questions now?
...................................................................................
I know where I stand with the Soke of the Bujinkan Dojo.
I could careless what others say.. and repeat from hearsay... from any source. It doesn't change their hateful and misleading statements or lies about my own personal life or warrior methodology. 
It does not change what I have posted or said in person on my position as a human being because I speak the truth and don't lie.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## ronhughen (Jul 2, 2004)

All heresay about what people in Japan say about Ralph shihan aside, I remember seeing Hatsumi sensei at the 1991 Texas TaiKai stand on the stage and say of Ralph shihan He is a genius and a master technician 

He went on to say something like Ralph Severe was living the experience, unlike others just going through the motions for the sake of a demo, really killing the foe as if he were in combat. 

I was very green at the time, but it made quite an impression on me. My impression was that Hatsumi sensei was very impressed with Ralph Severe.


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## ronhughen (Jul 2, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> All heresay about what people in Japan say about Ralph shihan, I remember seeing Hatsumi sensei at the 1991 Texas TaiKai stand on the stage and say of Ralph shihan He is a genius and a master technician
> QUOTE]
> 
> I believe there is a video tape of Hatusmi Sensei saying this on the stage . . . although I don't know how to obtain it.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 2, 2004)

Don,
 I have tried a few times now to log on to Kutaki.org. but kep getting a "page cannot be displayed" message. Do you have a different  or complet  address for this area??
thanks


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## Dale Seago (Jul 2, 2004)

Ron:

That was 13 years ago. I was talking about last Sunday, when Soke was personally asked at my request, which makes it a bit more than "hearsay". 




			
				Don Roley said:
			
		

> Dale says that the Honbu administrator asked Hatsumi if Ralph was a member of the Bujinkan or not. Hatsumi said he was not.
> 
> . . .The guy who asked Hatsumi posts on Kutaki.org. He does not post here, but Dale knows he looks over his shoulder. If Dale lied about what he said, I would expect him to raise the point in a thread over at Kutaki. If he is satisified with the truth of what Dale said, there will be no post. So, try to find a post denying what Dale said by him. If there is none, then the matter is settled and there is no need to scream and yell at each other. Ok?.



Hasn't happened yet.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 2, 2004)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> Don,
> I have tried a few times now to log on to Kutaki.org. but kep getting a "page cannot be displayed" message. Do you have a different  or complet  address for this area??
> thanks



Go to http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb/

There's no need to register and log in just to look at posts or use the search function.


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## ronhughen (Jul 2, 2004)

as a 15th dan Australian instructor who's been living in Japan the last few years recently commented said:
			
		

> I'm sorry, this is what I was referring to as "heresay".  I did not mean to imply anythinig that Hatsumi sensei may have said directly to you was heresay.  Please accept my apology for not being more clear.
> 
> My question would be is what kind of person do THEY say he is.  Do they actually know him?  Or do they only KNOW what others (possibly with somewhat hostile attitudes) say about him.  I submit myself as somone that HAS known him for a long time, and find him to be one of the best people I know, personally.  People can ask me about him, I'll be honest.


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## Dale Seago (Jul 3, 2004)

Okay, that I will accept as a bit of a cheap shot that I shouldn't have indulged in. Sorry for the misunderstanding.


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## ronhughen (Jul 3, 2004)

No problem, Dale shihan.


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## ronhughen (Jul 4, 2004)

"The Japanese do have an idea of what kind of person he is but it is not their backyard. I have never heard his name mentioned in a positive way by any Japanese Shihan or by Soke."

:idunno: So, my question remains . . . what "kind of person" do these "Japanese" say he is? No answers? This is so typical of the things said about Ralph shihan . . . "this person says this" . . . "that person says that" . . . You guys aren't even putting out specifics, just impying thing saying "the KIND of person he is" . . . well you are writing things on a publlic forum, so you need to be specific whedn you are talking about a person and be prepared to defend what you say . . . there is a legal term for saying untrue, undefendble things about a person in public, especially in writing . . . its called slander. 


"The guy who asked Hatsumi posts on Kutaki.org. He does not post here, but Dale knows he looks over his shoulder. If Dale lied about what he said, I would expect him to raise the point in a thread over at Kutaki. If he is satisified with the truth of what Dale said, there will be no post. So, try to find a post denying what Dale said by him. If there is none, then the matter is settled and there is no need to scream and yell at each other. Ok?."

 No, I don't think its "OK" . . . I can't accept statements being blessed as "true" by somebody that is supposed to be passing judgment by NOT saying something . . . are you kidding!!??? For all I know he thinks all this is totally stupid and would not stoop so low as to dignify it with a response, that would be my position if I did not read so much undefendable, unfair comments about Ralph. Please supply some statements by some reputable persons, with real knowledge or real personal experience about Ralph, because all I ever read about here is from people that don't know Ralph personally, quoting others that don't konw Ralph personally (probalby few have even met him and are just basing opinions and comments on rumors and gossip) . . . So, can anybody that has actual, personal, real experience about what a bad person Ralph is tell me about it?:asian:


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## Elizium (Jul 4, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> there is a legal term for saying untrue, undefendble things about a person in public, especially in writing . . . its called slander.


Err... no... it is not slander, it is libel.  Slander is the spoken form of making accusations against a character.  Libel is in written form.  If I said for instance, your mother looked like a Tengu that had been beaten with the ugly stick, that is slander.  In a written form and transmitted, it becomes libel.  the written word is shown and recorded.  

I am just saying this to set your statement correct.

You may now return to your pseudo hatred of each other.


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## Bujingodai (Jul 4, 2004)

Regardless of what is said, or status in any org. Ralph scared the crap out of me when I saw him in action in Atlanta. So I like him LOLOL.

Now I have my opinions of Mr Severe. A little long winded sometimes to make a point yes, a tad obscure yes, sometimes too basic and raw yes. But he is one of the few with enough nuts to make a point no one wants to touch and has the knowledge and training to back up his position.

This is just my 2 cents. I have nothing bad to say about Dale either. So I don't hate anyone. But I had to defend my thoughts of Ralph.

There have been a bunch of high profile people leave the Kan. This is an issue that should be looked at seriously and not dismissed as them not being able to handle it, dishonest people, bad hearts whatever.


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## Elizium (Jul 4, 2004)

Here is a thought... why is it only some of the American bujinkan people that are argueing all the time?  Is this is why in the last post some people are leaving the bujinkan because of this?


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## Jay Bell (Jul 4, 2004)

> there is a legal term for saying untrue, undefendble things about a person in public, especially in writing . . . its called slander.



No...and it's not libel either.  Dale asked the Hombu administrator, who in turn relayed what Hatsumi sensei said regarding the issue.  Libel would be if Dale made the entire story up.  He's backed himself up...given you an open forum to address the question...but you'd rather sit here and complain.  Please.

The Hombu admin stated that Ralph was not a member.  If you see issues with this, take it up with him.  Killing the messenger isn't helping your cause much.



> So, my question remains . . . what "kind of person" do these "Japanese" say he is? No answers? This is so typical of the things said about Ralph shihan . . . "this person says this" . . . "that person says that" . . . You guys aren't even putting out specifics, just impying thing saying "the KIND of person he is"



This statement would do nothing for you but insure that you really don't understand the Nipponese mindset.  *Specifics* that you beg for are rarely discussed, especially when it's of a unpleasant bit about someone.  I'm not sure I follow much of your logic here.  You don't believe that the story that Dale relayed was true...yet...you turn around and ask what the Shihan, etc think about him?  Why would you trust such a thing coming from someone who, in your mind, has already "slandered" him?  Why don't you go to Japan and ask them yourself?



> Here is a thought... why is it only some of the American bujinkan people that are argueing all the time?



Because America is blessed with Ralph.


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## ronhughen (Jul 4, 2004)

"There have been a bunch of high profile people leave the Kan. This is an issue that should be looked at seriously and not dismissed as them not being able to handle it, dishonest people, bad hearts whatever."

I agree.  Its easy for those "good ol' boys" to sit back and say why someone decided to split, but why not ask the ones leaving.  Ralph has been very up-front about his reasons . . . I think basically he feels that the ranking in the BJK is based more on politics and payments than the skills and the knowledge the rank is supposed to represent.  My guess would be that Ralph is not the only one to become fed up with such baloney, such puckey.  



You know, such a big deal has been made about Ralph Shihan not having a shidoshikai card.  He has certificates and personal letters from Hatsumi sensi, but he does not hand out BJK dojo ranks . . . Im raked under Ralph but Im not in the BJK . . . it does not matter to me that Im not in the official BJK.  But if you guys are going to get so bent out of shape about Ralph, why are you not also upset by others that ARE handing out BJK ranks but do not have the precious shioshikai card . . . if you are going to play Gestapo of the Bujinkan, you should be consistent and go after all those bad people . . .  I haven't been over to the Kutaki site for some time, as I have let lapse my Shidoshikai card...(beat me now...I have been busy!!) (Steve Lefebvre, Airyu . . . from the thread stick techniques).  Ive heard there are quite a few.  Who really cares?  If the little card becomes more important than the knowledge then the whole thing becomes silly.  I got into training because I developed a personal relationship with someone that could help me with a very troubled life, and now I have overcome most of those troubles (you never completly overcome your *****) . . . and can help others on a similar path.  Is that not what it is all about?


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## ronhughen (Jul 4, 2004)

Jay,

"The Hombu admin stated that Ralph was not a member. If you see issues with this, take it up with him. Killing the messenger isn't helping your cause much."

I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed the point of what I was talking about.  In an earlier post I stated that I did not have aproblem with Hatsumi sensei saying that Ralph does not have the card, the problem I have is that people, over the years, have consistently made untrue, undefendable comments about Ralph shihan, people that don't even know him . . . don't even have personal contact with him . . . those are the comments I was referring to.  

I was merely asking for those that say negative things about Ralph to justify the basis of where their comments come from or please stop making them . . . so far I've seen two poeple come forward and actually say positive thing . . . YOU saying that we are "Blessed with Ralph", and Dave Gibb saying he likes Ralph BECAUSE he scared the crap out of him . . . I agree with both of you.

So, my question is still: "can anybody that feels Ralph is a bad person . . . or whatever what was meant be 'they know what kind of person he is' defend the implication that statement is making?"


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## Cryozombie (Jul 5, 2004)

ronhughen said:
			
		

> Jay,
> 
> "The Hombu admin stated that Ralph was not a member. If you see issues with this, take it up with him. Killing the messenger isn't helping your cause much."
> 
> ...



The only thing I have to say about this...

And don't take it the wrong way, because I PERSONALLY have never had an unpleasant conversation with Mr Severe, even in our PMs.

However, It seems that he commented much further than just about the politics of ranking, but going so far as to say Hatsumi trains poorly, he doesn't know how to fight, the students in Japan are not being trained well, etc... 

He's talking about the "Grandmaster" of the art... I would think that assuming you have "made it better" or have become better, and no longer need to be associated, to the point that you can publicly badmouth him... is folly and arrogance, and that, at the very least, his comments SHOULD be challenged by the students of Hatsumi, in much the same way you are challenging them and Defending Mr. Severe.  

I see nothing wrong with leaving for your own reasons, whatever they may be, when you decide to move on.  As was stated before, a lot of 'Kan people have done it.   

But it's a... hmm, whats a good word... arrogant? thing to then say, "I left because I can do it better" repeatedly in the middle of discussions about him and his training techniques, etc... to the point that the entire conversation in all the threads in the Ninjutsu forum wind up somehow focused on yourself, to the point the owner of the board has to step in and threaten to shut the whole section down. (Granted, Bujinkan members attacking Non-bujinkan members had a lot to do with that also... it went around )

Mr. Severe has he reasons for leaving, has made them painfully obvious, and continually uses abrasive comments and "tones" in many of his posts, where they are not neccessary.  The reasons are out... So lets drop it, and talk Ninjutsu.  Mr Severe has demonstrated a great deal of knowlage, and I like to gain insight from that... 

I asked Don once to please be polite and quit attacking everyone who wasn't Bujinkan so we can learn somthing on this board...

Now I am asking Mr. Severe and his followers to do the same, and quit attacking the Bujinkan so we can set the politics he hates so much aside and learn from each other!

THANKS EVERYBODY! 


 :asian:


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## r.severe (Jul 5, 2004)

The funny thing about a few of these post are simple...
I am a Bujinkan member as much as anyone else in the Bujinkan is...
I have not had any other information regarding my membership sent to me by Hatsumi sensei. So?
My personal contact with him says other wise I am in good standing with him.
Funny.. 
But also I am a student of the Bujinkan arts regardless if I am a member or not.
Next point would be I have never said I was not a member of the Bujinkan or was 'leaving' the Bujinkan.. unless someone misunderstood me.
Ron sensei has a few good questions that seem to be avoided by a few people who made the statements about me. 
I asked the same questions many times and didn't get an answer too.
It is normal for many members to lie about what they say on the forum to seem important or above others... in many ways or just to start a written battle for their enjoyment.

I feel Ron sensei is on to something important when honor, respect, integrity and talking behind others backs are concerned.

Next point, being a senior student under Hatsumi sensei I feel it is my right to speak up about something I find incorrect or out-right wrong in the system I train in. This is in the true spirit of the ninpo ikkan...
If I were not ranked by Hatsumi sensei and a long time student of the system, now 23 years.. maybe 24 years.. I wouldn't have that right.
I feel that if you are not a student then what right would you have to ask me not to speak about the system as I do?
I don't feel what I say is politics... NOT AT ALL.
I feel I am speaking from experience.
Seeing and hear someone telling un-truths and something in fact I have experience with and they do not.
Yes yes, this should create fear in those who don't understand or have their bubble broken...
Look at this..
A man gives a raning in a system.. to a willing student...
The student finds out this man doesn't have the experience to pass on the experience he has been confessing to..
I see how this manifest a weakness in the spirit...
It woiuld be a driving instructor giving a lesson in driving when he has never driven a true car before..
I'm sorry if this creates a lot of ill feelings my friends..
It's not my intention to do so..
I'm just doing what Hatsumi sensei asked me to do..

Next point.. sorry.. why not talk about this subject.. why stop having health chats? I see no harm if we are doing it in the best interest of the heart. I personally have no problem with what is being said.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 5, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> . . .
> 
> Next point, being a senior student under Hatsumi sensei I feel it is my right to speak up about something I find incorrect or out-right wrong in the system I train in. This is in the true spirit of the ninpo ikkan...
> If I were not ranked by Hatsumi sensei and a long time student of the system, now 23 years.. maybe 24 years.. I wouldn't have that right.
> ...



Ralph,

No disrespect, I am just clarifying for my own education. Your approach was that of the senior officer on a missions who is to review and give feed back to the senior most officer? Even when your ideas and opinion disagree with the senior most officer present.   If so then, I do understand and respect that type of feedback for Hatsumi, as long he has also received the same feedback you have given to others. NOTE: I have no doubt you have given the feedback back Hatsumi. 

Later you stated you were only doing what Hatsumi asked of you. As there were many sentences and possible another idea in there as well, I ask if that statement goes with this point.

Thank you


 :asian:


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## r.severe (Jul 5, 2004)

Rich, I&#8217;m not sure what a &#8216;senior officer&#8217; is in your question.
Very good question.
But in what I have been told to do as a student of Hatsumi sensei is to go out and play.. this is the basic &#8216;word&#8221; for what he wishes anyone to do, &#8220;play&#8221;. Play to me is to go to the post, shack things up, test, research, do it, train, and throw it away. 
Hatsumi sensei has at no time said do not question him or disagree with him from my knowledge. This of course wouldn&#8217;t be ninpo ikkan. I wouldn&#8217;t believe he would be against his own teachings would you?
If a teacher, shaman, guide, etc. doesn&#8217;t wish for you to disagree or question him then I would be curious &#8216;why&#8217; they felt that way to begin with.

ralph severe, kamiyama


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## clayton (Jul 5, 2004)

r.severe said:
			
		

> Look at this..
> A man gives a raning in a system.. to a willing student...
> The student finds out this man doesn't have the experience to pass on the experience he has been confessing to..
> I see how this manifest a weakness in the spirit...
> It woiuld be a driving instructor giving a lesson in driving when he has never driven a true car before..





			
				r.severe said:
			
		

> The major point is Hatsumi sensei doesn't know fighting..... he has never really fought. He has no history in fighting or experience other than matches in dojo and contest as a young man.


ralph,
 i've read your posts and was wondering what your combat/ or real life expierence is, this isn't an attact but i've heard you mention this about hatsumi and was wondering how your expierence differs? prision, military, police, or whatever that put in definate harms way? i've always been interested in peoples backgrounds, i also understand if you chose not to bring this up in a public forum. 
 -clayton


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## ronhughen (Jul 5, 2004)

Clayton,


You are asking Mr. Ralph about some of his personal background, yet I noticed on your puplilc profile you supplied NO information . . . who are you?  May we know who is asking this question??

-shikoyama


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## ronhughen (Jul 5, 2004)

Clayton,

I mean . . . most everyone here gives some information so that we konw who we are talking to . . . I, for example use my real name, make my personal website available . . . are you trying to hide who you are??  If so, why?


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## clayton (Jul 5, 2004)

im not trying to hide anything. my name is clayton lawrence. i train in the bay area cali.  father of 2, steady job.
     if i was telling john q martial artist that he doesnt train his people for combat because he's never been in said combat on an open forum, then i wouldn't think that my question would be offensive, as im sure mr severe can see. as to a website im just not that cool. im not a godan, and i only teach when my teacher cant make it to class because of work.
   oh ya my hobies are collecting knives, cooking, and watching my family grow up safely Ü. i will try to update my profile soon.


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## ronhughen (Jul 5, 2004)

Thanks for the response . . . it's just nice to talk to real people . . .


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 5, 2004)

Gentelmen I think this thread is going into areas that have been covered befor. If you wish to start a new thread please feel free to do so but No attacks on one person or his affliation or non afiliation that has already been discussed 
as of now this thread  should be closed


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