# When do people drop out?



## Lynne (Nov 26, 2008)

Not the most positive thread but I'm curious if there is a timeframe when people are more apt to drop out?

I've seen people drop out after one class.  They were in a dobok so that means they paid for at least a month.  Maybe they didn't take the trial class?  Our instructors make trial classes rough so a prospective student knows what they are getting themselves into.

I guess I've seen students drop out at all levels.  A few have dropped out at green belt.  Green belt training begins after about 9 months of training and lasts at least another 9 months.  Things are a little more challenging at green belt, more complicated combinations, Pyung Ahns Sam, Sa, and O.  Still, I'm kind of surprised that someone would make it to green belt and quit.  

I suppose I will see people dropping out at red belt, too.

What are the reasons people drop out?


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## MA-Caver (Nov 26, 2008)

Lynne said:
			
		

> What are the reasons people drop out?


Money, boredom, dissatisfaction (including but not limited to disputes with the instructor or other students, frustration, expectations not met, etc.), moving to another city or another part of the city, family obligations, lost of interest, reached personal goals, lack of time or conflicting schedules.

Those are just off the top of my head.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 26, 2008)

The longer you spend time in rank, the less likely you are to drop out.  My teacher's teacher has some statistics on this.  On average, 50% of white belts drop out.


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## Lynne (Nov 26, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> The longer you spend time in rank, the less likely you are to drop out. My teacher's teacher has some statistics on this. On average, 50% of white belts drop out.


 Wow...50%.  I know I've seen quite a few drop out at white belt, somewhere after one class and before the yellow belt test (approximately 8 weeks of training).  I don't know what the attrition rates are at red belt or black belt, but I would agree that more have dropped out at white belt than higher ranks.

Maybe school owners should make at least two trial classes mandatory before joining.  At our school, all ranks are in the same class except for specialized classes (black belt only; Il Gup preparation).  Therefore, white belts are expected to do the same work (to the best of their ability) the rest of us are doing.

I understand the life reasons that MA-Caver is talking about as well.


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## Drac (Nov 26, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Maybe school owners should make at least two trial classes mandatory before joining.


 
That how it was at the first dojo I trained at..Some STILL dropped out when during the first mild kumite with the Sensei they caught a mild smack and left saying " They did not pay to get beat up"...


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## Lynne (Nov 26, 2008)

Drac said:


> That how it was at the first dojo I trained at..Some STILL dropped out when during the first mild kumite with the Sensei they caught a mild smack and left saying " They did not pay to get beat up"...


 That doesn't sound like being beat up by the way you are describing the situation.  After a couple of trial classes, I would think they would know what to expect.  Maybe they are making excuses because it's just not their thing.

On the otherhand, MA can be painful (whether it's 50 pushups or leg work) and I think a lot of people shy away from that.  But Tang Soo Do classes are not BJJ or Krav Maga.  We do have joint locks but we tap out when we need to.  Still, I do here people whining every once in awhile.  Ahh...whiners.  There's a clue.  They are probably not enjoying the pain!


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## Drac (Nov 26, 2008)

Lynne said:


> That doesn't sound like being beat up by the way you are describing the situation. After a couple of trial classes, I would think they would know what to expect. Maybe they are making excuses because it's just not their thing.


 
I remained friends withe the assistant Sensei and he told me that story..Full padded hands and feet and he caught a slap to the cheek..He threw out his mouthguard and walked out..He did have to come back for his clothes and car keys...


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## DMcHenry (Nov 26, 2008)

Students drop out for all different reasons, at all levels.  It might not even be them - it can be the parents not willing or able to bring the kids to class.  School, work, family, money, military, other hobbies, just about anything can cause a student to leave.


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## jarrod (Nov 26, 2008)

i dropped out of several martial arts before i stuck with one.  i try to keep that in mind whenever i take it personally after a student quits showing up.  a coach can't be all things to all people.

jf


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 27, 2008)

It depends on the style and the system of the Dojang. If it's a degree-selling one, with good marketing system, it will hold students much longer (until they open their eyes to reality). It applies to all arts, not just TSD.

In my dojang we have a hard and strong system, which has the disadvantage of making students drop out very fast. I'm the only one left from hundreds of white belts. I remember one special class, when we had a very hard training. It was so brutal 10 guys never returned (no one was beaten up).
We have closed and reopened Dojang 3 times (lack of students).

Another TSD dojang, cousin of ours (I should say sister) always has a lot of students, many black belts, they even make their own tournaments. Why? ... Nice marketing, beautiful studio, training area with soft carpet, air conditioning in summer, heating in winter (here we can be as cold as -14 C, or as hot as 48 C), softer training, etc.

Of course there are many other factors to consider:

1- Time (work, school, family)
2- Money
3- Parents
4- don't like the style.
5- Lazyness
6- etc.

We offer up to 3 free trial sessions, so potential students can decide if our TSD is what they are looking for before joining.


Regards.


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## Kwanjang (Nov 28, 2008)

Attrition is a major concern-with any business. The student(buyer) goes through several phases. #1.the novelty phase, this is when they are most likely to refer potential prospects to your studio. There are other phases the consumer goes through--we can discuss those some other time. A great analogy to the novelty phase is, for example, in 2001 I bought a Really nice 1972 Convertible Corvette Stingray. I thought of everyone I knew and drove it to their house to show them.

Unfortunately, The novelty phase does wear off. Then we are dealing with the law of diminishing return. For example; the first piece of, lets say, chocolate cake always tastes the best and anything after is not as rewarding a s the first piece. the same law applies to the martial art.

Some, never grow weary of the repetition. Others stop for the reasons mentioned in previous comments listed above.


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## Lynne (Nov 28, 2008)

Sometimes we do have rough classes.  If my muscles haven't recovered, I usually take a few days off from class.  I wonder if that is the best thing to do because you then end up missing something important!  I have been so sore I couldn't walk well for 4 - 5 days. 

In fact, we have had classes that rough with people trying out (on occasion).  It's not too surprising they don't come back.


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 28, 2008)

Its not for everyone, they have this idea of what it is in their minds and when the training doesnt equate they quit.  Some people just want the belt and not the knowledge...who knows why poeple do things.....


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## Sukerkin (Nov 28, 2008)

The two simplest explanations that spring to mind for the drop out rate in martial arts are:

1)  It's difficult and demanding.  

"You can't take a couple of classes and be Bruce Lee?!.  I'll stick to being a thug with a bat then ...".  That's the big initial cause of loss.  

When I started Lau Gar back in {muffled mumbling } our class was about 35 strong.  Week Two there were 20.  Week Three, 12.  Week Four, 6.  I was given to understand that that was typical and I can believe it.  I was fit as the Butcher Dog and found the work-out/warm-up, with all it's stretching for enhanced movement to be a trial for months.  

Then there was the full(ish) contact sparring - no pads except on the shins and no rules apart from no deliberate hard contact to the head or 'privates'.  I loved it but a great many did not.  The "Not paying to get beat up" line was commonly heard.

2)  Achieved the goal and received a Black Belt {Oooh!}.  This is the saddest cause of people leaving for me as I really believe that Black Belt is only the true start of building skill in an art, rather than just knowing the kata etc.

I've found that you can usually tell who is going to 'fold' with new beginners but the Shodan leavers are harder to spot.


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## Lynne (Nov 29, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> The two simplest explanations that spring to mind for the drop out rate in martial arts are:
> 
> 1) It's difficult and demanding.
> 
> ...


 I haven't seen some of our cho dans in awhile and wonder if they have stopped training.


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## girlbug2 (Nov 29, 2008)

My EPAK sensei used to regularly comment on the drop out phenomenon, and often quoted the following statistic to the class: the belt at which students most frequently drop out is white belt, followed by first degree black. Third most frequent dropout rate is from the third degree browns.

It's obvious why so many drop out at white belt level, as mentioned by posters above. Not so obvious for the high first degree black belt drop out rate, but it is thought that first degree black is frequently the highest goal a student has set for himself, he achieves it, and never thought beyond that goal to what he was actually going to do with it. Perhaps also a first degree black is like much of the general public which believes that black belt rank is the pinnacle of the martial arts, automatic proof of ultimate proficiency; so what's the point of sticking around for second degree, third degree....must seem redundant to the uninformed person.

As for the third degree brown belts; that's when the pressure really starts to rise and the big test is looming. A lot of people decide that they really can't handle it then and there. Sad, to come that far and quit. I really pray that when I get there I have the gumption to continue no matter what.


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## Lynne (Nov 29, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> My EPAK sensei used to regularly comment on the drop out phenomenon, and often quoted the following statistic to the class: the belt at which students most frequently drop out is white belt, followed by first degree black. Third most frequent dropout rate is from the third degree browns.
> 
> It's obvious why so many drop out at white belt level, as mentioned by posters above. Not so obvious for the high first degree black belt drop out rate, but it is thought that first degree black is frequently the highest goal a student has set for himself, he achieves it, and never thought beyond that goal to what he was actually going to do with it. Perhaps also a first degree black is like much of the general public which believes that black belt rank is the pinnacle of the martial arts, automatic proof of ultimate proficiency; so what's the point of sticking around for second degree, third degree....must seem redundant to the uninformed person.
> 
> As for the third degree brown belts; that's when the pressure really starts to rise and the big test is looming. A lot of people decide that they really can't handle it then and there. Sad, to come that far and quit. I really pray that when I get there I have the gumption to continue no matter what.


 I pray I can do it, too.


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## Montecarlodrag (Nov 29, 2008)

You can do it, don't doubt that.
But, it's not going to be easy. You will need patience and strong will.
You will face injuries, boredom, challenges, etc. The only thing needed to overcome them is patience, strong will and commitment.

When I was color belt, I was not good, my skill was mediocre at best. But I kept working hard and training, with time I got better and better. People who had the gift, very skilled for MA dropped out because they had no commitment or will.


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 29, 2008)

Commitment is something that we as people dont have enough of I think...I couldnt believe dropping out right before my BB test...thats just crazy.


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 29, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> 2) Achieved the goal and received a Black Belt {Oooh!}. This is the saddest cause of people leaving for me as I really believe that Black Belt is only the true start of building skill in an art, rather than just knowing the kata etc.
> 
> I've found that you can usually tell who is going to 'fold' with new beginners but the Shodan leavers are harder to spot.



Technically, I'm _somewhat_ guilty of #2. I trained regularly for eleven years prior to going for my black belt, except for about year off when I went back to school. So call it ten. About a year after making that rank, my interest trailed off a bit. I'm looking for something else right now, but it's hard to get motivated.

When I observed a class at my school years and years ago, I didn't know if it was something I could get into. I had no familiarity with Hapkido, and so I was a bit shocked when I saw wrists getting bent and people pounding the mats.

Similarly, I think for many working adults, making a commitment to do something two or three nights a week, it has to be something you really love in order to stick with over time.


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## terryl965 (Nov 29, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I pray I can do it, too.


 
Just make a commitment to yourself and see it though


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## agemechanic03 (Nov 30, 2008)

Another reason people drop out or even stop training for a while is b/c there are no schools within a reasonable distance. As in my case...I just left from training 5-6 days a week in Korea for a year straight to no training here in Germany b/c there are no schools within a reasonable distance. Plus, it's winter time here and the weather is a lil bit unpredictable and American people can't drive in the snow!!! (I'm American too, by the way.)


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## Makalakumu (Nov 30, 2008)

agemechanic03 said:


> American people can't drive in the snow!!!


 
I lived for 31 years in Minnesota.  We have snow there donchaknow.  In fact, we need to be ready to drive in snow nine months of the year.  There are some Americans that know how to drive in snow, youbetcha!


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## Sukerkin (Nov 30, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> Similarly, I think for many working adults, making a commitment to do something two or three nights a week, it has to be something you really love in order to stick with over time.


 
A good old "Quoted for truth" here :tup:.  It's something we haven't explicitly mentioned in any of our posts above I think i.e. that to continue in an art, regardless of rank attained, means that it is indeed something you love to do.


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## jks9199 (Nov 30, 2008)

My experience is that there are a couple of main points when students quit.

Lots quit whenever their initial commitment runs out, whether that's one month or one year.  They just weren't more interested...  

I've seen many quit after their first test or competition.  Especially if it didn't go well...  Or the first time they really get hit.  In short, after a sort of reality check about what they're doing, and that it's not easy.

Others quit somewhere shortly before black belt.  They don't want the responsibility or to make the commitment that a black belt carries, it seems.

The last major quitting point from the martial arts side occurs shortly after black belt.  Many, many students quit sometime shortly after they obtain their first black belt.  Some run off to teach (or so I hear, 'cause I rarely see them again!), some have just achieved their goal, and they're done.

Outside of the dojo/dojang/kwoon, there are other reasons people quit.  Lots of students that start in college or high school quit when they graduate; they're simply moving on.  Others change jobs, get married or have kids or have some other life change that interferes.

What I've found is that the student who truly sets aside the class time as CLASS time, and little is allowed to interfere, stay.  The rest?  Excuses and justifications for missing class seem to breed more of the same...


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## Gordon Nore (Nov 30, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> A good old "Quoted for truth" here :tup:.  It's something we haven't explicitly mentioned in any of our posts above I think i.e. that to continue in an art, regardless of rank attained, means that it is indeed something you love to do.



When I first started out, our son Tucker was in Kindergarten. We were a family of three with two jobs and one car. It's tough enough getting kids to all their activities -- factor in an adult, and it does get complicated. I see it all the time with parents who train, swapping cars with the spouse to get the kids home, etc. In that sense, it's all the same to me, whether it's karate, or yoga, or pottery. People doing these activities probably want to experience success for their efforts.

That said, yes, there are folks who come into the dojo with expectations that don't match reality. And that's just as well. They got to see it, and found that it wasn't what they are seeking.

Now, how many got discouraged or skeptical when the Sensei asked for a year's tuition and guaranteed they would be eligible to grade in a year, with a tidy grading fee?


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## Kwanjang (Dec 1, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> My EPAK sensei used to regularly comment on the drop out phenomenon, and often quoted the following statistic to the class: the belt at which students most frequently drop out is white belt, followed by first degree black. Third most frequent dropout rate is from the third degree browns.
> 
> It's obvious why so many drop out at white belt level, as mentioned by posters above. Not so obvious for the high first degree black belt drop out rate, but it is thought that first degree black is frequently the highest goal a student has set for himself, he achieves it, and never thought beyond that goal to what he was actually going to do with it. Perhaps also a first degree black is like much of the general public which believes that black belt rank is the pinnacle of the martial arts, automatic proof of ultimate proficiency; so what's the point of sticking around for second degree, third degree....must seem redundant to the uninformed person.
> 
> As for the third degree brown belts; that's when the pressure really starts to rise and the big test is looming. A lot of people decide that they really can't handle it then and there. Sad, to come that far and quit. I really pray that when I get there I have the gumption to continue no matter what.


 
Great post!

I do beleive it is the Sr. Instructor job to instill in to his student that BB is not the end...but the beginning of your training. I and my instructors instill this from the the very first class..and we talk about training beyond the black beltmost every class.  Regarding 1st degrees droping out-I think some instructors fail to feed them adequately. You've got to have a black belt class.

Still sometimes people just quit! I can only hope if they choose to return to martial arts they will come back to me- if I have done a good job teaching them.


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## DMcHenry (Dec 1, 2008)

My wife trained with me off and on for about 20 years (more off than on).  She attained 1st gup/kyu, but had no interest in achieving her Chodan.  She didn&#8217;t have the interest, and with her idea of what a &#8216;black belt&#8217; is she couldn&#8217;t see herself as one.   She encourages and backs me 100%, it&#8217;s just not for her. 

My youngest stopped training after reaching her Chodan &#8211; picked up track and cross-country running as her &#8216;thing&#8217;.  My oldest is the only one who has continued, and still trains today in 2 arts, having achieved her Sahdan.


As mentioned before, seems to be those who really  LOVE it and makes it part of who they are that continue.  Heck, I&#8217;ve been a student for quite a while, just never quit.  The training is the goal, not a &#8216;belt&#8217; or rank.


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## foggymorning162 (Dec 2, 2008)

I think it depends on the age when the highest drop out rate is. For adults it is usually when they hit the advanced classes and start realizing that hey this hurts. For kids it is at the intermediate level when it starts taking longer to get a new belt, kids need incentive. But if you really step back and look at the big picture and the total ratios of all students who start and those who complete at any given level then the highest drop out rates are 
1)White belts; because people are curious but it's not for everyone.
2)Cho Dan; it is unfortunate but a lot of people think once you get it your done. 
3)Apprentice Black; although not all federations have this level for us it has a high drop out rate because it is a required one year minimum at this rank and you don't get a lot of new material this is a time your expected to perfect what you already know it weeds out a lot of the less than commited.


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## JoelD (Dec 2, 2008)

Most of our dropouts tend to be children 13 and below, they seem to just lose interest. When we lose adults it is almost always because of a change in jobs that causes conflicts with class or if the people just move away. there are exceptions to that rule, of course, but that is generally the way it goes.

I for one plan on training till i drop dead. I enjoy it alot.


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## SA_BJJ (Dec 2, 2008)

JoelD said:


> Most of our dropouts tend to be children 13 and below, they seem to just lose interest. When we lose adults it is almost always because of a change in jobs that causes conflicts with class or if the people just move away. there are exceptions to that rule, of course, but that is generally the way it goes.
> 
> I for one plan on training till i drop dead. I enjoy it alot.


 I think 99% go in with good intentions of sticking it out, but lose interest along the way.  I also think alot of dropout rates depend on the instructor.


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## Gordon Nore (Dec 2, 2008)

JoelD said:


> Most of our dropouts tend to be children 13 and below, they seem to just lose interest. When we lose adults it is almost always because of a change in jobs that causes conflicts with class or if the people just move away. there are exceptions to that rule, of course, but that is generally the way it goes.
> 
> I for one plan on training till i drop dead. I enjoy it alot.



Interesting. I used to notice a slightly different trend. At about 12 or 13, a kid transitioning to middle school or a junior high, getting into a more active social life, etc. That's when I noticed kids quitting. Karate wasn't as cool as it seemed when they were young.


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## bluekey88 (Dec 2, 2008)

I've been around a lot of different styles over the years and I've noticed some patterns.  Poeple tend to drop out at certain times...3 to 6 months in.  The initial glow of new learning has worn off and tehy get bored or regular life catches up.  

After about a year or so...when one tends to get to the mid levels of many arts.  The easy successes of the eraly ranks are done and there is more work involved.  This is often the time I see the "naturals" quit...when things aren't coming so easily.  

Another time is right before and right after acheiving advanced rank (black belt in most arts).  For many, that was the goal, with the goal accomplished, the desire to continue training goes with it.  Also, some schools do not have much in the way of a set curriculum for post dan ranks and this lack of external goals can be problematic in some schools.

For younger students, I see many studnets of all ranks leave between 15-17.  Why?  Jobs, dating, driving, etc.  All much cooler than MA (that they've been doing almost _forever).  _  Those teens that stay past 15-16 usually leaver after 18 when they move away for college and or work in the real world.  Usually see them again in the later 20's ealry 30's when the financial situation is more stable and they are able to carve out some free time.

Peace,
Erik


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## JoelD (Dec 3, 2008)

Gordon Nore said:


> Interesting. I used to notice a slightly different trend. At about 12 or 13, a kid transitioning to middle school or a junior high, getting into a more active social life, etc. That's when I noticed kids quitting. Karate wasn't as cool as it seemed when they were young.


 

We seem to have been lucky that way... most of our teenage students stick around. in fact a good number of our Dan member are teens.


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## hong kong fooey (Dec 5, 2008)

I agree with alot of the post here. People drop out for a bunch of different things. money,Family, TIME, ETC, I went all the Way to brown Baelt in TAE KWON DO and droped out for A TANG SOO DO class. because I wanted to try somthing different


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