# Flow vs Basics



## Cryozombie (Dec 13, 2005)

I hear a lot of talk about flow, and about mastering the basics.

Id say being able to do both is important to being "well rounded" but at what point do you transition.  (almost) No one's basics are perfect, and we could spend a lifetime mastering them... so at what point do you "move on" and work on other things?   A lot of people here seem to imply NEVER, but I don't think they mean it that way, because that leaves no room for growth...

So where do you guys feel the balance point is?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I hear a lot of talk about flow, and about mastering the basics.
> 
> Id say being able to do both is important to being "well rounded" but at what point do you transition. (almost) No one's basics are perfect, and we could spend a lifetime mastering them... so at what point do you "move on" and work on other things?


 
Excuse me but what is that supposed to mean? "Moving on"?


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## Navarre (Dec 13, 2005)

In my styler of ju-jitsu there are no "basics". There are only concepts that are reflected in various techniques. We employ the concepts in each technique and work to refine the execution of the technique itself. 

One of the concepts of all of the techniques is "flow". So, by working the technique and adhering to the concept, the "basic" (the technique) and the "flow" (the concept) become one.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 13, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> In my styler of ju-jitsu there are no "basics".


 
In ours there are. Your point is?


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## Cryozombie (Dec 13, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Excuse me but what is that supposed to mean? "Moving on"?


 
By "Moving on" I mean... well, like when you start, you work the basics, you learn Ukemi, stances, sanshin, Kihon Happo, and that is your FOCUS... it may not be the only thing you learn, but its your main... what is a good word... PURPOSE... at that time in your training.  I think at some point that focus shifts, you never stop working on and using those basics, but at some point you start looking at, I dunno, other stuff?? How they apply, or the space around your opponent, or the other dynamics in a confrontation... as opposed to the gross motor movements of the Sanshin, or the stances... 

I guess, Moving on means looking at "more" in terms of your taijutsu.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 13, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> In ours there are. Your point is?


 
play nice.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 13, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> By "Moving on" I mean... well, like when you start, you work the basics, you learn Ukemi, stances, sanshin, Kihon Happo, and that is your FOCUS... it may not be the only thing you learn, but its your main... what is a good word... PURPOSE... at that time in your training. I think at some point that focus shifts, you never stop working on and using those basics, but at some point you start looking at, I dunno, other stuff?? How they apply, or the space around your opponent, or the other dynamics in a confrontation... as opposed to the gross motor movements of the Sanshin, or the stances...
> 
> I guess, Moving on means looking at "more" in terms of your taijutsu.


 
Sometimes it seems to me that all "advanced" Bujinkan training can be described with three words.

Pimp My Kihon. :ubercool:


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## Cryozombie (Dec 13, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Sometimes it seems to me that all "advanced" Bujinkan training can be described with three words.
> 
> Pimp My Kihon. :ubercool:


 
lol.  Thats an amusing image


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## Kizaru (Dec 14, 2005)

Personally, I think it's a good idea to get a good feel for how to use leverage before moving onto "flow". If one moves onto flow without having leverage, couldn't you end up just flowing into a dangerous position?

I dunno....

Richard Maloof


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## Don Roley (Dec 14, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Id say being able to do both is important to being "well rounded" but at what point do you transition.  (almost) No one's basics are perfect, and we could spend a lifetime mastering them... so at what point do you "move on" and work on other things?



Never. You work on the basics as they are presented for a long time. Then you move on in a fashion. But then you need to go back and fine tune those basics and look at them with new eyes. And again you follow them as shown to you for a long time until you get to a matter of freedom. Then you start the cycle over again.

I have seen people far better than me be corrected in their kihon happo. The level of subtlety being corrected was far beyond what I could understand and I growled at someone who wanted me to translate this private conversation that they would probably never understand. If these skilled Japanese could be still looking at the basics like that, there is no way I can believe that any of the guys strutting around and calling themselves 'shihan' can honestly say they know the Kihon Happo well enough to leave it behind and never look back.


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## Kreth (Dec 14, 2005)

I don't think it's a matter of consciously moving on. I think as you train your basics repetitively, you develop a flow. This coming from a guy who has all the flow of a brick... :lol:


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## Bigshadow (Dec 14, 2005)

We were training with Rob Renner on Monday night and he made many good points, one in particular that I think may be relavent to this and I think it also ties in with what some have said. Essentially, what I got out of it, was that as we train we are constantly trying to _*do*_ but with _*less*_. I believe this process is how flow gradually becomes part of the training. I don't think there is a line of demarkation that states at this point flow begins, I think it is a natural progression of training as we keep going over the basics and stripping out our own inefficiencies. I am saying that I think that flow will naturally happen as we train. 

Just some of my thoughts.


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## Cryozombie (Dec 14, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> there is no way I can believe that any of the guys strutting around and calling themselves 'shihan' can honestly say they know the Kihon Happo well enough to leave it behind and never look back.



Well, if you go read my clarification of "Moving On" you will see I never said leave them behind... I was asking at what point do you conciously start working on other things...

Ive been to several Bujinkan schools, seen it done differently at each.  I like the way we do it now personally... I was just wondering what the rest of you think... and it seems my first impression may be right after all.


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## Navarre (Dec 14, 2005)

BigShadow, I think you're right about this. I also think that flow is something that needs to be kept in the forefront of our minds as we train. 

I've seen some high ranks that are still very stiff. But, overall, I think that flow is a natural progression of training. 

In fact, I'll go so far as to say that flow is very hard to teach separately from the technique itself. Only by continuous practice on the technique will the principle of flow be developed.


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## Kreth (Dec 14, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> I think as you train your basics repetitively, you develop a flow.





			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> Only by continuous practice on the technique will the principle of flow be developed.


Hell of an echo in here, eh?


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## Bigshadow (Dec 14, 2005)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Hell of an echo in here, eh?



yes, a resounding echo!


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## bencole (Dec 14, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> as we train we are constantly trying to _*do*_ but with _*less*_. I believe this process is how flow gradually becomes part of the training. I don't think there is a line of demarkation that states at this point flow begins, I think it is a natural progression of training as we keep going over the basics and stripping out our own inefficiencies. I am saying that I think that flow will naturally happen as we train.


 
I agree and I believe this is also what Don is saying by "revisiting the kihon." As an example, after I (thought I) understood the "mechanics" of omote gyaku, I decided that I wanted to be like my teacher and be able to pin my uke to the floor without using my hands. I tried for many months to do this, and eventually got it such that I could hold my uke on the ground using just my knees and hip, freeing my hands to draw weapons and freeing my attention away from the guy beneath me.

In doing this, however, I started to rethink what I (thought I) understood of the mechanics. I "threw away" movement that was unimportant, and as a result, my understanding of "the basics" improved.

I believe this reflects all three opinions mentioned here: (1) At what point do you make a decision to "go flow" (e.g. work precisely on efficiency) (Technopunk), (2) The process is natural progression of training (Kreth & BigShadow), and (3)  The process results in feedback that alters what you thought you knew (DonRoley).

In other words, you grow! 

-ben


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## Cryozombie (Dec 14, 2005)

bencole said:
			
		

> I agree and I believe this is also what Don is saying by "revisiting the kihon." As an example, after I (thought I) understood the "mechanics" of omote gyaku, I decided that I wanted to be like my teacher and be able to pin my uke to the floor without using my hands. I tried for many months to do this, and eventually got it such that I could hold my uke on the ground using just my knees and hip, freeing my hands to draw weapons and freeing my attention away from the guy beneath me.
> 
> In doing this, however, I started to rethink what I (thought I) understood of the mechanics. I "threw away" movement that was unimportant, and as a result, my understanding of "the basics" improved.
> 
> ...


 
Yes! Yes! This is exactly what I was wondering! You get to a point where you move away from "In Omote you peel the opponents hand off and step forward, and then circle it up, after which you pull back and twist and this is the throw" (And yes, I know thats not _right _and that is on purpose) but you move into "In omote, as your body turns this way, his wrist will roll and you may then lock it and break it or throw your opponet by positioning your hips here" 

This is good, because reading a lot of posts I got the impression from a lot of posters that since our basics are never perfect we should not try and move away from "In Omote you peel the opponents hand off and step forward, and then circle it up, after which you pull back and twist and this is the throw" type of training... but rather should perfect that type of movement from our basics... Im beginning to see what they ACTUALLY mean now!


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 14, 2005)

It's also said that flow is essential to learn the usage of broken rhythm - something which sadly a lot of people these days don't know how to utilize. Comments?

(and no, I was not being disrespectful, to whom it may concern)


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## Navarre (Dec 14, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> It's also said that flow is essential to learn the usage of broken rhythm - something which sadly a lot of people these days don't know how to utilize. Comments?
> 
> (and no, I was not being disrespectful, to whom it may concern)



If you mean me, then no offense taken. I have little desire to take the internet world as reality. 

... On the other hand, someone gave me a neg rep point today for my previous post in this thread yet failed to give a reason or sign their name. That's really pathetic. 

Oh well, in the end it's just a little red GIF file. Thanks [whomever] for giving me something colorful to look at.

As for flow and broken rhythm, I'd be interested in hearing how you think flow is necessary. I don't doubt the claim; I just want to make sure we're talking about the same concept. ... kinda like you wanted to clarify mine earlier.


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## Henso (Dec 14, 2005)

My opinion is that we must be able throw away our perception of the basics, only to return and discover what we could not see when we viewed them as such. This allows us to trancend the limits of our capacity to understand a movement or concept at any given time, and yet return to the very same in cycle of new revelation as we grow.

All of that being said, it could just be the wine, though!


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2005)

Yes, nim, to clarify, by broken rhythm do you mean, disruptive timing?  Can you clarify the term?​


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 15, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> ... On the other hand, someone gave me a neg rep point today for my previous post in this thread yet failed to give a reason or sign their name. That's really pathetic.


 
Not me. Honestly.



			
				Navarre said:
			
		

> As for flow and broken rhythm, I'd be interested in hearing how you think flow is necessary. I don't doubt the claim; I just want to make sure we're talking about the same concept. ... kinda like you wanted to clarify mine earlier.


 
Well, for starters, I think I've had the most fun during training with instructors who can go from zero to 300 percent in a nanosecond and then back to normal again without feeling any agitation.


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## Navarre (Dec 15, 2005)

Are you meaning the concept of (what we call) spontaneous initiation? This is the concept of remaining focused but relaxed, using maximum conservation of energy. 

Then, when a movement is made, it is explosive. No energy is wasted but all potential energy is transformed into kinetic power. 

It helps us stay relaxed, mobile, and energetic during "rest" periods thus providing even greater power and speed during the technique. Is this what you're referring to?


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## davidg553 (Dec 15, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I hear a lot of talk about flow, and about mastering the basics.
> 
> Id say being able to do both is important to being "well rounded" but at what point do you transition.  (almost) No one's basics are perfect, and we could spend a lifetime mastering them... so at what point do you "move on" and work on other things?   A lot of people here seem to imply NEVER, but I don't think they mean it that way, because that leaves no room for growth...
> 
> So where do you guys feel the balance point is?



Shouldn't you learn to flow as a part of your "basics". If one thinks they have mastered a basic such as the sanshin no kata or the kihon happo but have no flow then maybe they should reconsider their definition of mastery.

-- Begin Edit --

And the echo continues...as usual I didn't read the whole thread.


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## rutherford (Dec 15, 2005)

It seems to me like many of these posts are using the term "flow" to mean different things.  Everybody seems to have their own definition, and I think some of them are very different from what Technopunk is talking about.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Dec 15, 2005)

"If I thought like hell,
thought until evening fell,
about my life and found
some kind of truth that seemed sound,
well then I'd better keep this in my memory,
that this truth holds true to no one other than me."


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> It seems to me like many of these posts are using the term "flow" to mean different things. Everybody seems to have their own definition, and I think some of them are very different from what Technopunk is talking about.


 
Right, and I think PART of that was my (possibly misconstrued) notion of what was meant about "Basics" being


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## Cryozombie (Dec 15, 2005)

rutherford said:
			
		

> It seems to me like many of these posts are using the term "flow" to mean different things. Everybody seems to have their own definition, and I think some of them are very different from what Technopunk is talking about.


 
Right, and I think PART of that was my (possibly misconstrued) notion of what was meant about "Basics" being the BASIC movements used to learn things like the sanshin and Kihon Happo...


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