# Multiple Defenders?



## Stan (Nov 17, 2006)

The dead horse of multiple attackers keeps being beaten.  And I think it should.  It's an important question.  But does any training that anyone know of address the idea of multiple defenders?  Meaning, if you're out with a group, and you're attacked, how to move to maximize the effectiveness of the group, rather than just resorting to melee combat?  Think of the Roman Legions and how much more effective they were man for man because of their group oriented tactics, than their enemies who often were individual "heroic" warriors.  The legions mowed them down.  

I know it is unlikely that you would be traveling in a group where several people are trained in the same martial art.  But it's an interesting idea nonetheless.  Systema is the only art I can think of that might have this training, and I don't even know for sure about this.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2006)

Our club travels as a group a lot as we go to MMA  shows (to compete) most weekends. We have had to deal with 'carpark fighters' before now who've watched the show and think they can fight too. They can't we can lol. It's usually a short encounter, we don't get in each others way and because we train together we tend to know how each of us is going to react. We never ever start anything but by heavens we can finish it!


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## searcher (Nov 17, 2006)

I don't have anything like this from my MA training, in any of my styles.    But I do use this from past military training.   I/We have never had to use it, but we are at least trying to prepare for it.    I have a feeling down in my gut that if it ever came to a point where it would be usable, my students would digress back to a dis-organized mob.


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## Stan (Nov 17, 2006)

I would think that outside of miliitary and police contexts, cultural senses of "honor" would prevent many people from doing this.  Yet to me there is no honor or dishonor in self-defense.  If I was with a friend who could fight and we were attacked by someone, you better believe we're going to gang up on him.  

I used the example of the Romans, and I might also add riot police formations, which remind me very much of Roman tactics.  Still, I do think that this kind of training could be useful for civilians.  But to me this is one example of the crucible that separates self-defense from single combat or "street fighting", passed off as self-defense.


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 17, 2006)

I watch old Star Trek episodes to learn what *not* to do


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 17, 2006)

tom patire's training for life includes some good group/family strategies.  

other than that, i haven't encountered any partner fighting training in my studies.  the question has come up among some of my friends, and we've worked together to come up with some stuff.

the best simple idea i've seen is that of codewords.

families and teams should have certain incongrous words that mean something to each other, but nobody else.

for example, if you're concerned about someone nearby, you can say 'hey, isn't that aunt becky by that tree?', even though your spouse knows your aunt becky died last year.

another example is calling your child by the wrong name to let them know it's an emergency.

my brother and i, when we were younger and dumber, decided the word 'wallet' meant that someone was going to make a move.  as in 'it's okay, i'll give you my money' means give the mugger your cash.  but 'dude, just give him your wallet' means be ready 'cos i'm gonna do something.

that sort of thing.


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## robertlk808 (Nov 17, 2006)

Excellent idea for a topic.  I like the idea of codewords and it would take a serious discussion beforehand with your friends and family but what if you are out with friends that are *NOT* martially minded.  Say you go to your wifes christmas party and while exiting to  or while you are in the parking lot you are accosted, do you take the "Alpha Dog" position to be the negotiator or do you let someone else do the talking so you can get into position to make a move?


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## bushidomartialarts (Nov 17, 2006)

speaking of wives and parties, this works for less lethal situations.

for example, my wife and i know that if the other runs both hands through their hair at a party, it means 'this person is driving me nuts.  please come rescue me.'


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## airdawg (Nov 17, 2006)

I have trained for group deffenders, but not in MA's specifically. Swat, active shooter responce and teams. I consider all of it MA's but some of it is a stretch.

great topic. Would be a great idea to offer multiple deffender instruction with drills, instead of just classroom theory. Louis Awrebuck has some great drills with multiple deffenders with firearms.


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## still learning (Nov 17, 2006)

Hello, Multiple defenders..UM  Everyone runs in the same direction?  

In hand to hand combat...too hard to make formations, maybe keep your backs together when possible.

Every fight will be total chaos, sometimes one on one, mulitples on one person, (things like this happen in large fights).

Best thing is the stronger/better fighters always help the people in your group who are taking a beating. When possible!

Most people will never get into these situtions, AVOID, AVOID...guns maybe presented!

Awareness will prevent this from happening, and being humble too,(don't let your EGO's get to you!  ....best to always walk away unharm..words will not hurt as much, if someone in your group get hurt badly or Killed.

A very rare thing to practice for............ (in your group there maybe women,children,and old folks), the situtions changes here!

...........When in a group....walk way in front or behind...something happens....you can watch! (only kidding)...........Aloha


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 18, 2006)

We train for it in Kenpo too.  TRAIN TRAIN TRAIN and all hell will break loose. Pay attention to what you're doing and take out the most immediate threat first.


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## jks9199 (Nov 18, 2006)

Stan said:


> I would think that outside of miliitary and police contexts, cultural senses of "honor" would prevent many people from doing this.  Yet to me there is no honor or dishonor in self-defense.  If I was with a friend who could fight and we were attacked by someone, you better believe we're going to gang up on him.
> 
> I used the example of the Romans, and I might also add riot police formations, which remind me very much of Roman tactics.  Still, I do think that this kind of training could be useful for civilians.  But to me this is one example of the crucible that separates self-defense from single combat or "street fighting", passed off as self-defense.


I don't think it's so much a sense of honor as practicality.  Unless we're police officers, military service members, or a gang -- the odds are that we're not going to be fighting in a group in a self-defense situation.  Predators don't seek packs; they target individuals who seem vulnerable.

And even in law enforcement -- it's hard to coordinate what's going on in the chaos of a real world fight, unless you practice and train to do it regularly.  SWAT teams or special response units do this; line officers don't generally.  That's why the "pig pile" is such a common technique when multiple officers have to subdue someone.  (And it's why lots of "friendly fire" happens when groups of cops are trying to take someone down hand-to-hand...)


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 18, 2006)

Stan said:


> The dead horse of multiple attackers keeps being beaten. And I think it should. It's an important question. But does any training that anyone know of address the idea of multiple defenders? Meaning, if you're out with a group, and you're attacked, how to move to maximize the effectiveness of the group, rather than just resorting to melee combat? Think of the Roman Legions and how much more effective they were man for man because of their group oriented tactics, than their enemies who often were individual "heroic" warriors. The legions mowed them down.
> 
> I know it is unlikely that you would be traveling in a group where several people are trained in the same martial art. But it's an interesting idea nonetheless. Systema is the only art I can think of that might have this training, and I don't even know for sure about this.




I have found it takes expereince with those who have been there. 

For example, I know that I have walked around in a crowd while two faced off, and told stories about one of the guys, and how he beat a police officer up and is still not in jail. *** Fiction is great *** other times you just wait in the crowd for the other guys friends to make his move then you check him and tell him he had better not as I am not alone in the crowd and I have him covered. You see these are tactics to use friends to help. 

Another case is have one person face off and the second one make the first shot for a sucker punch, as the two faced off usualy are not paying attention. In my case I slapped the second one across the face, because I used my whole vision and not tunnel vision. This allowed me to see his fist ball up and for me to react and then my hand was up after the slap and ready for the 7' guy I was staring up too. 

Large numbers vesus large numbers. i.e. 13 attackers and 5 defenders

Three cars pull in and empty out while we were playing hackey sack. ** Hackey Sack is not a crime  ** Given position I had to take point. The other four with me were my friends and all blooded in some form on conflict as I had been. I knew I could trust them. The off duty officer retrieved his firearm still concealed, antoher guy reaches in and grabs a knife in his car, the third reaches in and grabs a tire iron. The fourth cannot obtain anything given position, and is watching and prepared, while I look down and see a tuna fish can in the parking lot. I grabbed the unopened can. 

Their best fighter gets right into my chest (* much shorter than me *) and starts breathign harder to pump himself up. The talker in the back says something about us causing the problem and why did we do it. A person with me says hey man, just back as one of us an off duty officer. Their reply is that they eat officers for breakfast. I look at the talker and tell him I going to kill him. The fighter in my chest breathing says the fight is with him. I state that he is already down and the guy behind him on the right has a broken knee and the guy on the left has lost his eye all in my path to get to the guy in the back that I was telling them I was going to go after. 
The fighter moved to create some space, I knew what was going on, so I hit him upside the head with the can palmed in hand. Down he goes. The guy behind him on the right had moved a little as he was afraid I was going to break his knee, so when I shoved the guy after the shot, they all fell over just like the "Keystone Cops". I then stepped on a couple and ran to the front of the building as they tried to get up. I opened the front door with out turning off the alarm, so it went off. They decided that it was best to leave at that point. 

I was chastised by my friends for going past them, and they were afraid that I could have had 8 on me while the rest all had one. Which is true but I took advantage of the situation and reacted. 

If you have a plan it helps. If you practice it helps. Just remember that no plan ever survived intact with contact with the enemy. So one must be willing to adjust.


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## searcher (Nov 18, 2006)

bushidomartialarts said:


> for example, my wife and i know that if the other runs both hands through their hair at a party, it means 'this person is driving me nuts. please come rescue me.'


 

It is a great thing to have little hand signals and "code words" to help those with you to know what you are needing to do or what you are going to do.

Sorry about going off-topic.


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## charyuop (Nov 20, 2006)

In my opinion if you you didn't practice it before, even tho you and your friends are all MAist, stay far from one another. Adrenaline and chaos might make so that your friends will be in your way or other way around.


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## Robert Lee (Nov 20, 2006)

You never know what will happen when your out and about. Sure it would be nice to have a safe group of people with you but this is not going to happen much.  And today yes more people fight more then 1 at a time.  2 to 3 on one and then 1 brags he whipped someone. But I would not say a tactical defence with your friends on a unplanned event could really work. And  It would not be a very planned format. Now soldiers police they plan on something. Unplanned they are not in a group as much. It looks good team spars at schools or demos. But they are not real. On the streets just train for what you believe to be yours and others needs. From there hope for the best it something happens and be both smart and fight the best you can if it comes to that.


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## thewhitemikevick (Nov 23, 2006)

Honestly, I think the best way to "practice" for it isn't really practice at all. I know me and my friends used to hang out and wrestle or box eachother in the backyard or slap box eachother or basically do what would have been considered freesparring. Roughhousing. Going out and getting some fresh air. It's all about having chemistry with the friends that are with you. Even besides doing all this, just being with those friends a lot is a big help. The longer you hang out with someone, the better you know how they will react to a certain situation, and you can see through they're outwards attitudes that they show there other peers. You know who they are, and have a better understanding of what they will do. I know when you're a kid down here, if you've been someone's friend for a long time, you've probably seen your friend fight at least once, and you get a good idea of his character as an individual and as a fighter. Being completely comfortable, and just knowing the person you are with is probably the best practice you can get. When you get into a situation where your lives are at stake, and you are both there, dependent on one another, it's a lot different than what is presented to you in a dojo (though training in any martial art, I'm sure, can be a big help and a credit to you're ability to react to the situation in the right way and with the right skills.) 

I know last year me and my cousin were walking a long the side of the road and some crazy driver swerved at us, and my little cousin (whos actually taller and larger than me haha) was being a stupid bigmouth and yelled something at the driver and he stopped and peeled out in reverse and got out of the car and started a confrontation with us. While I could feel the surrounding tension between us, and that the setting was far from calm, our fighting styles fit in with eachother kind've like pieces of a puzzle akwardly assembling themselves in one way or another, and we were able to defeat an opponent much larger than us and walk away unharmed. Of course, I was there when this kid was born. I've known him for my entire life, and have literally spent countless hours with him, so I guess the chemistry just clicked. We know eachother, we know how one another fights, and it's not as though we really had time to think about what we were doing...we just reacted, and we reacted well together. It's all about chemistry. Natural chemistry, and not forced chemistry. In my opinion, that's what does it best.


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## bujuts (Nov 23, 2006)

Good topic.  Marcus Buonfiglio and Eric Howard have a few things to say in this regard.  Glad you brought it up, its a subject seldom addressed, let alone discussed, the martial circles.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30419

Salute,

Steven Brown


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## Arath (Nov 26, 2006)

A REALLY original topic.
       I'd say, if you outnumber your attacker, deal with him in a pair - circle him so you're attacks are coming in from different angles. It's an extremely dangerous situation for him, especially if both of you are trained - even if you aren't perfectly synchronized, it works.
    If you look at nature, it's used all the time - wolves will use a multi-directional attack against a single victim, a pair of young male lions will attack a bigger male in exactly the same way, one confronting him while another goes in from behind for the spine-bite that cripples.

   As for my own experiences, there's a good example of co-operation in combat. Once a friend and I were walking on the street when we were attacked by eight guys - I'm still not clear what their reason was, probably just for kicks. I'm a very experienced martial artist, but my friend knows nothing of the martial arts - so he kind of just pretended to run off while I engaged them, then snuck back and hit their leader from behind in the back of the head with a rock, felling him like a tree - the whole pack broke up after that. I admired his actions greatly, especially because he wasn't trained - he made up for a lack of training with straight strategy.

   These guys thought I was the threat because I was taking them on eight to one - they didn't see the wolf slinking in from behind. HE was the threat, not I.


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## FearlessFreep (Nov 26, 2006)

I say if you outnumber your attacker than you really need to be careful what you do or the police and the judge are not going to look too favorably on whatever you do.  Very easy for the 'attacker' to become the 'defender' and you are the ones up on charges.


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## Arath (Nov 26, 2006)

right, a very important point - however, in the situation above my friend and I didn't really outnumber our attackers, we just happened to be two against 8.

But Fearless Freep has a very valid point here - if you outnumber your attacker I'd say keep your attacks down to the minimum needed for you to get away, don't get carried away. Oh, and to be honest, I rarely expect such a situation to arise - humans are pack animals, they tend to attack when the numbers are on THEIR side, and not the other way around.


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## Skip Cooper (Nov 26, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:


> ...so I hit him upside the head ...


 
I love this line.


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## Last Fearner (Nov 26, 2006)

Stan said:


> It's an important question. But does any training that anyone know of address the idea of multiple defenders? Meaning, if you're out with a group, and you're attacked, how to move to maximize the effectiveness of the group, rather than just resorting to melee combat?
> ...Systema is the only art I can think of that might have this training, and I don't even know for sure about this


Actually, this kind of situational response has always been a part of my training in Taekwondo. I'm sure not all TKD schools, or instructors address this, particularly if they were never taught the concept.  Anyhow, we were doing this kind of training back in the 70's, and I still teach it.



Stan said:


> I know it is unlikely that you would be traveling in a group where several people are trained in the same martial art. But it's an interesting idea nonetheless.


I wouldn't agree that it as "unlikely" to be in a group with friends of the same Martial Art. Perhaps this varies for each person's experience, but when I was a young instructor, I got several of my friends to join Taekwondo, so naturally we would hang out together. Also, I made many new friends in class. Fellow students or groups of Black Belts would often go to movies together, bowling, bars, and especially tournaments and demonstrations.

Currently, my wife is a 3rd Dan and I am 6th, so if we are out together and are attacked, we would apply group defense strategy rather than "every man (or woman) for himself (or herself)." My sons are training, so when they are older, the odds of bullies attacking them while they are together is very likely. In the future, when my three sons are all Black Belts, I would feel a bit sorry for the poor fool who attacked my family while we were out together - - naaah - - on second thought, I wouldn't! 
:btg: :whip: :matrix: :boxing:     :lol2: 

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Rich Parsons (Nov 26, 2006)

Skip Cooper said:


> I love this line.




Shhhh, I was much younger than


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## jks9199 (Nov 27, 2006)

Arath said:


> right, a very important point - however, in the situation above my friend and I didn't really outnumber our attackers, we just happened to be two against 8.
> 
> But Fearless Freep has a very valid point here - if you outnumber your attacker I'd say keep your attacks down to the minimum needed for you to get away, don't get carried away. Oh, and to be honest, I rarely expect such a situation to arise - humans are pack animals, they tend to attack when the numbers are on THEIR side, and not the other way around.


ANY time you're forced to defend yourself -- keep the force you use to the minimm necessary to do the job.  Self defense is a JUSTIFICATION for using force against someone, and that justification ends when you are no longer in danger.  While a civilian wouldn't ordinarily be held to the same standard as a police officer, a trained martial artist may be held to a higher standard than a "normal" civilian.  Especially in a civil trial...

Note well -- I'm providing neither specific nor general legal guidance; just a very broad take on the issue.  You want a lawyer's take on something, hire one.


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