# Dealing with speed



## Mark L (May 17, 2004)

I just got back from class tonight and I'm baffled.  After the instructional part of class we practiced semi-kumite for about 20 minutes followed by free sparring for 15.  My partner is 17, has superior flexibility, and is faster than anyone I have ever seen.  I'm 44 with pretty good hand speed and average legs, I just can't catch up with this kid.  I have 40 lbs on him so when I get my hands on him and we go the ground he's mine, but I'm taking a beating getting there.  Even worse, he's going to be man size pretty soon, I can feel a substantial difference in his power over the past year.

I can't figure out how to deal with his speed.  If I close and try and jam, his hands are everywhere.  If I stay out his legs are killing me.  I wish I could convey how fast he kicks, it is quite humbling.   To this point I've been able to take his shots and eventually get to him, but that's my size and strength advantage and willingness to absorb a beating to get my shots in.  But that's going away pretty quickly.  What can you do to neutralize an opponent who has a significant speed advantage?

We're the same rank, so we match up often.  I like it and I hate it.  The good part is I mostly tough it out until I can do something useful.  Even better is when I'm matched with mere mortals, and can actually see and block the attacks before they land.  How do you handle an opponent like this?


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## Rich Parsons (May 17, 2004)

Mark,

I am not a Kenpo practitioner just to let you know up front 

I think many people only concentrate on speed. Speed is good. And as you pointed out it is natural in some and age does come into play as well.

Think timing instead of speed.

Think when to move and how to abort and fake or guide the opponent into making a move you wish to take advantage of. I know this is harder in application then just stating it.

Do you have an instructor that can spar and or beat this other person? If so, how do they do it? What techniques, and when do they execute them?

Just some thoughts for now.

 :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (May 18, 2004)

Ed Parker has an analogy that might help. The "appetizer, main course, and dessert" thing will help keep him at bay. It puts him on the defense for three beats instead of just one, and he can't attack you while defending. The Appetizer gets you in and the dessert gets you out. Let the "meal" be the intermission of safely controling the distance.
Sean (www.iemat.com)


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## loki09789 (May 18, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Mark,
> 
> I am not a Kenpo practitioner just to let you know up front
> 
> ...


Reaction Speed is mental in your case because you are slower at reading his motion because of his muscle speed and reacting appropriately. Sparring, more than real fights, take on a noticeable rhythmn and pace. Control that with distance and, as Rich mentioned, timing and you will find the way that works for you. If speed is the problem. Get in his habits and head. Is he cocky because of youth, speed and flexibility? Use that. Does he over commit because of it? Is he impatient? Make him chase you.... tons of ways. Trick is to watch him. See the whole fighter, not just your problem with the fighter.

The other thing is the trade off.  You are getting tagged on the way in, but is it vital areas?  Is the damage you are simulating a good trade for what you are taking to get there?


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## Han-Mi (May 18, 2004)

I am an assistant instructor in TKD. We also train limited Kenpo and boxing so we have some good hand speed as well. Anyway, we have a similar pair in our studio. Tony is an older man who used to box. He has some bad habbits but all in all, he has decent speed. Mark is a 19 yr old kid. One of my buddies, He isn't the fastest guy, but hes a kid, Hes got the natural speed advantage. 
They are pretty even now, but there was a point when Tony was actually wiping the floor with Mark. The reason for this was Tony's ability to side step, and judge distance. Of course this rests on the ability to read your opponents movements. Since you spar him often, you should know his personal style and quirks pretty well, If not, pay attention for a couple of rounds. There will be things that you will quickly see that are his "tells". As soon as he moves, just step and strike, then get out. You must be patient and start being smart about your movements now, before he has a chance to gain on you.

The most important thing to remember is to read his movements. Just counter what you can recognize, and be patient for those moves to come.


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## 8253 (May 18, 2004)

the best counter to speed i have encountered is when they stick a limb out, grab it and plant the person, all of that speed does no good when they are one the ground with you on top of them choking them.


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## Han-Mi (May 18, 2004)

he doesn't wanna kill the guy, just best him.


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## Les (May 18, 2004)

8253 said:
			
		

> the best counter to speed i have encountered is when they stick a limb out, grab it and plant the person, all of that speed does no good when they are one the ground with you on top of them choking them.



Thats a good theory, but first you have to 'catch' the limb.

A proficient kicker will not be leaving his leg out ther for you to grab, it'll be out and back. We have already established that this opponent has the speed to do that.

Secondly, while you are grabbing that limb your own natural weapons are tied up doing that. Meantime, he's pounding you with his fists, scoring even more points.

Next, I'm not sure these peoples Instructor will advocate choking as part of a sparring session.

Just my thoughts,

Les


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## Kenpodoc (May 18, 2004)

This sounds like a good opportunity to practice close range fighting, good positional checks, striking checks, leg buckles.  You already know you'll win on the ground so there's no reason to keep going there.  His speed will beat you if you allow him to stay outside (still it's good practice.)  Use your extra weight to keep your opponent off balance and negate his speed advantage.

Jeff


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## psi_radar (May 18, 2004)

I'd work on timing and footwork. My handspeed is pretty good but I've had the same sort of problems as you with younger guys (and gals). Everyone has favorite techniques and patterns of throwing them, so I worked on identifying their habits and their telegraphs. One guy was lightning quick with his kicks, and for a while always got me with the left mid-roundhouse, high roundhouse combo. Once I could tell when he was throwing it I practiced moving my angles so that the kicks fell on air, then after I got confident with that I could get off the line and counter with my hands, and then even boot-boot sweep.

Craftiness must take the place of youth and speed. I learned some valuable lessons by reading the Iliad and the Odyssey way too many times--"Crafty" Odysseus was older and less physically impressive than Achilles, but much less flawed and could get through just about any confrontation against seemingly invincible foes using his brains.


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## Mark L (May 18, 2004)

Thanks for your comments.



			
				Les said:
			
		

> Thats a good theory, but first you have to 'catch' the limb.
> 
> A proficient kicker will not be leaving his leg out ther for you to grab, it'll be out and back. We have already established that this opponent has the speed to do that.
> 
> ...


I catch his front and side kicks all the time, haven't been able to do much with them.  Roundhouses and jumping kicks I try to get out of the way.  You're right about being tied up and getting pounded.  We do continuous sparring, to submission if it goes to the ground, points isn't the the thing I'm worried about. 



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> Reaction Speed is mental in your case because you are slower at reading his motion because of his muscle speed and reacting appropriately ... If speed is the problem. Get in his habits and head. Is he cocky because of youth, speed and flexibility? Use that. Does he over commit because of it? Is he impatient? Make him chase you.... tons of ways. Trick is to watch him. See the whole fighter, not just your problem with the fighter.



I'm not so sure about some of your points, though I do appreciate your reply!  The problem isn't mental, I do see what is coming but I can't always block or move quick enough to fend off the attack.  He is cocky, patient, unpredictable, doesn't over commit, moves quite well.  

I'll see if I can get a few seconds of video of him and post it.

There was a horror/paranormal film back quite a few years ago (Poltergeist?)where some researcher was gushing about how they actually saw a little toy car move across a room over the course of eight hours.  The victims responded with something like "I don't think you understand", opens a door into another room where dozens of large objects are furiously hurtling about the room.  

It's not quite that bad, I did get the TKO with a spinning hook kick that grazed his throat (he walked into it), he was OK after a few minutes.  It was mostly when we were doing the semi-kumite that I felt overwhelmed, he's a bit more circumspect when he knows I'll be hitting back.


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## Mark L (May 18, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> One guy was lightning quick with his kicks, and for a while always got me with the left mid-roundhouse, high roundhouse combo.



Sounds just like my guy, he usually follows with a chest high side kick.  



> Once I could tell when he was throwing it I practiced moving my angles so that the kicks fell on air, then after I got confident with that I could get off the line and counter with my hands, and then even boot-boot sweep.



I've been practicing the sweep, it isn't quite there yet for this opponent.



> Craftiness must take the place of youth and speed. I learned some valuable lessons by reading the Iliad and the Odyssey way too many times--"Crafty" Odysseus was older and less physically impressive than Achilles, but much less flawed and could get through just about any confrontation against seemingly invincible foes using his brains.


I have them at home, I'll brush up ...


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## Touch Of Death (May 18, 2004)

psi_radar said:
			
		

> I'd work on timing and footwork. My handspeed is pretty good but I've had the same sort of problems as you with younger guys (and gals). Everyone has favorite techniques and patterns of throwing them, so I worked on identifying their habits and their telegraphs. One guy was lightning quick with his kicks, and for a while always got me with the left mid-roundhouse, high roundhouse combo. Once I could tell when he was throwing it I practiced moving my angles so that the kicks fell on air, then after I got confident with that I could get off the line and counter with my hands, and then even boot-boot sweep.


I agree; however, I feel a lot of what "filling in the dead space" is about is buying your self time while at the sme time nullifying your opponents possible speed advatage.
Sean (www.iemat.com)


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## Rick Wade (May 18, 2004)

Mark L said:
			
		

> I just got back from class tonight and I'm baffled.  After the instructional part of class we practiced semi-kumite for about 20 minutes followed by free sparring for 15.  My partner is 17, has superior flexibility, and is faster than anyone I have ever seen.  I'm 44 with pretty good hand speed and average legs, I just can't catch up with this kid.  I have 40 lbs on him so when I get my hands on him and we go the ground he's mine, but I'm taking a beating getting there.  Even worse, he's going to be man size pretty soon, I can feel a substantial difference in his power over the past year.
> 
> I can't figure out how to deal with his speed.  If I close and try and jam, his hands are everywhere.  If I stay out his legs are killing me.  I wish I could convey how fast he kicks, it is quite humbling.   To this point I've been able to take his shots and eventually get to him, but that's my size and strength advantage and willingness to absorb a beating to get my shots in.  But that's going away pretty quickly.  What can you do to neutralize an opponent who has a significant speed advantage?
> 
> We're the same rank, so we match up often.  I like it and I hate it.  The good part is I mostly tough it out until I can do something useful.  Even better is when I'm matched with mere mortals, and can actually see and block the attacks before they land.  How do you handle an opponent like this?



Mark,

    Not to sound like a Chinese philosopher but, you have found the answer inside of yourself now just have confidence.  Translation.  Thats the beauty of Martial Arts It takes advantage of your body style.  If you are not faster than him but bigger you know what advantages you have on him use them always work on your weaknesses but also remember you are probably building up doubt about his power.  My advise to you is talk to your partner about both of your strengths tell him to tell you how he would fight himself.  And vice versa.  This will not only make both of you better Martial Artist but better friends.

Respectfully.


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## arnisador (May 18, 2004)

I'm older and I've always been relatively slow so I know how you feel. (And as fast as his legs might be, sticks are more so.) are limb destructions an option? Can you keep moving, light on your feet, to make it hard for him to set for his technique?

I think the key idea, as people are suggesting here, is that you're letting him make you play his game. You've seen this, but aren't yet sure how to force him to play your game. It's tough to be specific without seeing you guys go at it, but you need to find a way to get into _your_ game. It sounds like size/strength/weight are your advantages--can you time him, then burst in and get a grip? Are takedowns allowed? Can you keep him out with long side kicks until _he_ gets tired and makes a mistake? Can you find a way to put him on the defense from a barrage, possibly by "covering" and taking a blow or two on the forearms until you can get in and grab?

Or, as we like to say in the FMA, why don't youjust cut him with your knife?


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## Rainman (May 18, 2004)

Mark L said:
			
		

> I just got back from class tonight and I'm baffled.  After the instructional part of class we practiced semi-kumite for about 20 minutes followed by free sparring for 15.  My partner is 17, has superior flexibility, and is faster than anyone I have ever seen.  I'm 44 with pretty good hand speed and average legs, I just can't catch up with this kid.  I have 40 lbs on him so when I get my hands on him and we go the ground he's mine, but I'm taking a beating getting there.  Even worse, he's going to be man size pretty soon, I can feel a substantial difference in his power over the past year.
> 
> I can't figure out how to deal with his speed.  If I close and try and jam, his hands are everywhere.  If I stay out his legs are killing me.  I wish I could convey how fast he kicks, it is quite humbling.   To this point I've been able to take his shots and eventually get to him, but that's my size and strength advantage and willingness to absorb a beating to get my shots in.  But that's going away pretty quickly.  What can you do to neutralize an opponent who has a significant speed advantage?
> 
> We're the same rank, so we match up often.  I like it and I hate it.  The good part is I mostly tough it out until I can do something useful.  Even better is when I'm matched with mere mortals, and can actually see and block the attacks before they land.  How do you handle an opponent like this?


 
Zone cancellation and timing.  Striking particular targets get particular reactions.  These reactions cause hesitation in the opponents movements thus cancelling him for a moment.  You know his leg has to retract and plant sometime...Sweep it and take him down.  This is an example of timing and zone cancellation compounded.   If you are at a physical disadvantage change how the game is being played.   Move it to the chess game where set ups by you determine the outcome.  We call this framing in American Kenpo... Give him a percieved target that puts his body in a position you can capitalize on.


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## mj-hi-yah (May 18, 2004)

Mark,

Since your game is best played on the ground, have you tried meeting his linear movement in on you with a circular movement around him for a takedown?  Follow a kick in through telegraphing (even a very fast kick has to be retracted) or create your own opportunity with a lunge parry strike combo into his zone of obscurity - just behind his back.  Work fast with a knife kick to buckle the back of his knee to bring him on his knees, but watch for spinning.  I learned this from themoretunesdude, a great Martial Artist and it really works!  Try it as a drill at first.

MJ


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## Han-Mi (May 19, 2004)

One thing I left out was something that is a hard sell for some people. The reason is because you need great stamina for this style of fighting. Continuous attack. I understand he's fast, but he can only move when you allow him to. It's kinda like carpet bombing. You just keep attacking to keep him off balance, then when you see your opening go for it. Most people try this in spurts. It's a good way to work on controlling your opponent, but again, you need to work your stamina up to do it.


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## Cruentus (May 19, 2004)

How to deal with speed?

Timing!

 :asian:


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## Les (May 19, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> How to deal with speed?    Timing!




You're dead right.

But you're not helping him much, are you?

Perhaps you could elaborate a little.

Respectfully,

Les


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## Cruentus (May 19, 2004)

Les said:
			
		

> You're dead right.
> 
> But you're not helping him much, are you?
> 
> ...



lol...crap, you called me out les. I'll put something together that is useful and post tomorrow!

 :asian:


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## bdparsons (May 19, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Ed Parker has an analogy that might help. The "appetizer, main course, and dessert" thing will help keep him at bay. It puts him on the defense for three beats instead of just one, and he can't attack you while defending. The Appetizer gets you in and the dessert gets you out. Let the "meal" be the intermission of safely controling the distance.
> Sean (www.iemat.com)



Exactly! Do your best to keep the pressure on him, bring the fight to him. Of course this puts the onus on you to have the plan going in and coming out. Keep it up and you'll force him to change his method of fighting (which I'm assuming is primarily offensive); this course of action will help both of you to develop.

Respects,
Bill Parsons
Triangle Kenpo Institute


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## Mark L (May 19, 2004)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> lol...crap, you called me out les. I'll put something together that is useful and post tomorrow!
> 
> :asian:



Do that if you'd like, but I think I get it!  Thanks to all, I'll be picking fights with this guy alot try and incorporate all your suggestions!


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## arnisador (May 19, 2004)

Les said:
			
		

> You're dead right.
> 
> But you're not helping him much, are you?
> 
> Perhaps you could elaborate a little.


Well, you know *Tulisan*...he's a man of few words.

Good luck *Mark L*!


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## Brother John (May 20, 2004)

Mark L said:
			
		

> I can't figure out how to deal with his speed.   What can you do to neutralize an opponent who has a significant speed advantage?


SO many have said such good things. I wanted to really add, but my brothers here have already pointed to the moon for you...I'll just throw my .02 into the pool with their coins.

I understand your issue with this guy..I think. Try these on for size...

#1: Seek him out! Steel sharpens on steel, man sharpens upon other men. The surest way to improve yourself is to associate with and pit yourself against others who possess the qualities you want or want to surpass. In class work next to him. Observe. Interact with him in as many ways as possible. Remember that the flip side of the "Problem" coin reads "opportunity". Don't look at dealing with him and his speed as a "Problem", look at it as instruction...he's your 'speed' instructor. When I studied Tae Kwan Do years ago (I'm better now) I sought out the best kicker in the school and emulated him. He taught me not only how to kick well, but also how to deal with a good kicker. Your time with your classmate will not only teach you how to deal with someone's 'quickness'...but also teach you to be quick yourself.

#2: Psychology. Seems like maybe you are paying attention to the age difference and are somewhat awed by his ability. Psychologically speaking, you are setting up a self fulfilling prophecy. With this paradigm at the outset and being reinforced everytime you get together with him, you aren't doing yourself any favors. This sets up a negative anticipatory "clinch" in your mind, and where the mind goes...the body will follow. This anticipation will make you hesitate and tighten...both of which will only serve to make him seem faster and you slower!!! Relax mentally! Relax physically! ...then go in and enjoy the lesson. (For further understanding at what I'm getting at, I HIGHLY recomend you look this book up in a book store, online or a library. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...search05/102-6142351-2610512?v=glance&s=books   check it out. It's gooooood.)


Just some thoughts!
Your Brother
John


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## Rich Parsons (May 20, 2004)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Well, you know *Tulisan*...he's a man of few words.



 :boing2: :rofl: That was funny


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 20, 2004)

If you want the easy way out..Cover, Answer. Cover, Answer.

Either press him to the ropes and keep him there, or become one hell of a counter-tactician. Might try, as Jamie Matthews says, looking for the space between the notes, and going in there.

D.


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## Storm (May 24, 2004)

You Can deal with speed.  At 5ft 1 and close to the smallest (actually most likely the shortest) person in the adult class, Im not slow but I get slaughtered quite often by the bigger slower person when they catch me. I have the otherside of the problem where I maybe faster than the big guys but their reach causes me a problem.

I have disgussed this with others and they we came up with the conclusion that the only way for me to get a hit in, is to head straight for the target and  risk a few hits on the way and stay inside of them as they cant work as well in so close.  The only problem is I do get hit on the way, if its a good one it stops me for a few seconds.

My Instructors say I have the style of a Bully as I end up putting the larger people on the back foot, when their weight and size should have me travellng backwards.  As soon as they click onto what I am doing, I get into trouble and end up retreating instead.


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## satans.barber (May 26, 2004)

Mark L said:
			
		

> I just got back from class tonight and I'm baffled.  After the instructional part of class we practiced semi-kumite for about 20 minutes followed by free sparring for 15.  My partner is 17, has superior flexibility, and is faster than anyone I have ever seen.  I'm 44 with pretty good hand speed and average legs, I just can't catch up with this kid.  I have 40 lbs on him so when I get my hands on him and we go the ground he's mine, but I'm taking a beating getting there.  Even worse, he's going to be man size pretty soon, I can feel a substantial difference in his power over the past year.
> 
> I can't figure out how to deal with his speed.  If I close and try and jam, his hands are everywhere.  If I stay out his legs are killing me.  I wish I could convey how fast he kicks, it is quite humbling.   To this point I've been able to take his shots and eventually get to him, but that's my size and strength advantage and willingness to absorb a beating to get my shots in.  But that's going away pretty quickly.  What can you do to neutralize an opponent who has a significant speed advantage?
> 
> We're the same rank, so we match up often.  I like it and I hate it.  The good part is I mostly tough it out until I can do something useful.  Even better is when I'm matched with mere mortals, and can actually see and block the attacks before they land.  How do you handle an opponent like this?



Don't get hung up on the age thing, our oldest member Brian is 54, and he can wipe the floor with pretty much anyone at the club if he's on form, including me at 32 years younger than him! In my opinion age experience wins out over age 9 times out of 10, just look at all these old masters you hear about who are 80 odd years old and yet seem untouchable 

If he's faster than you you may have to use a bit of cunning instead - try a few feints or distraction techniques. If his hands are fast try a bit of trapping if you can manage it, that might help. A bit of Lee's 'broken rhythm' never goes amiss either to throw people off their usual form.

Sorry if that's no use, I could help you more in person if I could see you both spar!

Ian.


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## KenpoTess (May 26, 2004)

Touche' Ian~!!

At 44 I have no fear of any of the younger, more fit Kenpoists.  Age is irrelevant and if you psyche yourself into thinking just because someone is years younger that they are faster .. then start rethinking or order yourself a wheelchair 

:asian:
~Tess


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## Seig (May 26, 2004)

Attack the limbs. IF he throws a kick, punch the ankle, if he throws a punch, hammer the forearm. In other words, make him really work for it.


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## Touch Of Death (May 27, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> Attack the limbs. IF he throws a kick, punch the ankle, if he throws a punch, hammer the forearm. In other words, make him really work for it.


That's the appetizer! :asian: 
Sean


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