# Good fight but where's the Kenpo?



## Kenpodoc (Jun 28, 2006)

On the various boards I have noticed that every time a full contact fight is posted or discussed various people respond "Its a good fight but where's the Kenpo?" I was thinking about this because several weeks ago my son and I were watching the Bernard Hopkins fight and despite the fact that it was boxing with no kenpo training, I constantly saw aspects of Kenpo body mechanics and kenpo philosophy. I find that I see Kenpo in every full contact fight I watch, rule limited and sloppy but kenpo as I see it, none the less. There are only so many ways to move a body so I suspect successful systems always must have similarities. 

Now my question. Does anyone believe that full contact kenpo can be done in the pretty flowing method it is practiced in?

My philosophy is to watch and see what works and then look for where this intersects with my Kenpo training. I don't need to learn a whole new system of fighting, I just have to practice that part which I already know but with perhaps a different visualization of the end results.

respectfully,

Jeff


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 28, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> On the various boards I have noticed that every time a full contact fight is posted or discussed various people respond "Its a good fight but where's the Kenpo?" I was thinking about this because several weeks ago my son and I were watching the Bernard Hopkins fight and despite the fact that it was boxing with no kenpo training, I constantly saw aspects of Kenpo body mechanics and kenpo philosophy. I find that I see Kenpo in every full contact fight I watch, rule limited and sloppy but kenpo as I see it, none the less. There are only so many ways to move a body so I suspect successful systems always must have similarities.
> 
> Now my question. Does anyone believe that full contact kenpo can be done in the pretty flowing method it is practiced in?
> 
> ...


 
In my experience, Kenpoka can be good fighters, but it often ends up looking like kickboxing. The style of sparring I have been a part of in the Dojo is what I refer to as "Kyokushin" sparring, i.e., minimal protection and no head contact. That method of training leads to several flaws, IMHO, if it is not supplemented with a more realistic style of sparring, such as full-contact. 

It is certainly not outside the realm of reality for Kenpoka to be a serious threat to a ringfighter. My buddy is a BB under Louis Maldonado, and he is a well-rounded fighter. I think Kenpo should adopt a bit more boxing and Muay Thai to supplement what is already a pretty decent sparring game. After all, it is a progressive MA, is it not? If CMA can have Sanda/San Shou fighters competing in ring fights, I see no reason why Kenpo cannot have practitioners representing it.


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## Zoran (Jun 28, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> Now my question. Does anyone believe that full contact kenpo can be done in the pretty flowing method it is practiced in?



You will only see that "pretty flowing method" is when the opponent is not fighting back. Otherwise, what you will see is something less pretty or kickboxing and such depending on what works best based on the rules of the sparring match. 

But seriously, what is "full contact kenpo"? Generally speaking, kenpo focuses on ending a confrontation quickly and decisivly. While sparring tends to be more a game like a chess match, or just one in many training tools.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

Zoran said:
			
		

> But seriously, what is "full contact kenpo"?


 
A real fight!

Generally though, since there are only so many ways to punch, kick, or move, and Kenpo is about Physics, Kenpo can be found in anything.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> A real fight!
> 
> Generally though, since there are only so many ways to punch, kick, or move, and Kenpo is about Physics, Kenpo can be found in anything.


 
I'd say the same thing about boxing and Muay Thai. But they truly are the most refined arts you can find in the stand-up striking arts. I'd challenge any of you to prove my assertion wrong. Just as a friendly, non-starting-poo-challenge.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

I'd also say those arts maybe refined or speacialized, but, the moves are present in Kenpo systems too.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

I have fought those people for real at work and outside. However, Kenpo is full of Science principles, that can be spoken of for pages, even for one move. The most refined striking arts or unrefined combatants, the same science principles are present.


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## timh (Jun 29, 2006)

> Now my question. Does anyone believe that full contact kenpo can be done in the pretty flowing method it is practiced in?


 
Kenpo, when performed in a situational self-defense scenario against a cooperative opponent, has an impressive fluid motion.  However, when in a fight situation against an uncooperative opponent, the fluidity is much less and it can appear more chaotic.  That is not to say there is no Kenpo in the fight, but it will be displayed in a different manner.  Many of the principles and stragegies hold true irregardless of the situation, but the 'prettiness' is lost in an actual fight.

I differentiate three general apects of martial arts (there are many more, but these are relevant to this particular discussion): situational self-defense, controlled sparring, full contact sparring.  If you were to observe experienced practitioners within each of these scenarios, you would see a progressive decrease in the 'pretty flowing method'.


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## Seig (Jun 29, 2006)

He who tries to be pretty during fight winds up ugly after fight.


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## Kenpodoc (Jun 29, 2006)

timh said:
			
		

> Kenpo, when performed in a situational self-defense scenario against a cooperative opponent, has an impressive fluid motion. However, when in a fight situation against an uncooperative opponent, the fluidity is much less and it can appear more chaotic. That is not to say there is no Kenpo in the fight, but it will be displayed in a different manner. Many of the principles and stragegies hold true irregardless of the situation, but the 'prettiness' is lost in an actual fight.
> 
> I differentiate three general apects of martial arts (there are many more, but these are relevant to this particular discussion): situational self-defense, controlled sparring, full contact sparring. If you were to observe experienced practitioners within each of these scenarios, you would see a progressive decrease in the 'pretty flowing method'.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> I'd also say those arts maybe refined or speacialized, but, the moves are present in Kenpo systems too.


 
I agree with you, to a degree. How old is Kenpo? Does it predate Boxing and Muay Thai? I do not believe it does, but I may be wrong. I see Boxing and Muay Thai in a lot of other arts, so I suppose that anyone who practices anything will pick out similarities, as there truly are _only so many ways _to throw a punch, a kick, etc. 

I've seen the forms, and they are incredible. When you say science, you really are not joking. But, the sparring is still sparring; strictly from a sparring/ring fighting perspective, there is room for improvement, both in strategy and training methodology. 

Were minor adjustments to be made in those areas, I think you could easily see fighters in kickboxing tournaments making a name for Kenpo.


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## Seig (Jun 29, 2006)

Technically, Kenpo predates them all. It all depends on which flavor you are discussing.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Seig said:
			
		

> Technically, Kenpo predates them all. It all depends on which flavor you are discussing.


 
Really? Not to hijack the thread, but I thought Kenpo was developed in the 50s, or so.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 29, 2006)

AdrenalineJunky said:
			
		

> I agree with you, to a degree. How old is Kenpo? Does it predate Boxing and Muay Thai? I do not believe it does, but I may be wrong. I see Boxing and Muay Thai in a lot of other arts, so I suppose that anyone who practices anything will pick out similarities, as there truly are _only so many ways _to throw a punch, a kick, etc.
> 
> I've seen the forms, and they are incredible. When you say science, you really are not joking. But, the sparring is still sparring; strictly from a sparring/ring fighting perspective, there is room for improvement, both in strategy and training methodology.
> 
> Were minor adjustments to be made in those areas, I think you could easily see fighters in kickboxing tournaments making a name for Kenpo.


 
The age is irrelevant with regard to my post. It could go all the way back to India,via Kung Fu etc.. but, to me, doesn't matter. Yes, The human body moves in so many ways--for everyone, so there are only so many ways to punch or kick, ultimately.

As for the sparring thing, we are in agreement there.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





There are fighters that box or kickbox, or did so That were KeN/Mpo practitoners, that have done very well. Remember Kenpo was not designed for the ring or that perspective.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

Hand Sword said:
			
		

> The age is irrelevant with regard to my post. It could go all the way back to India,via Kung Fu etc.. but, to me, doesn't matter. Yes, The human body moves in so many ways--for everyone, so there are only so many ways to punch or kick, ultimately.
> 
> As for the sparring thing, we are in agreement there.
> 
> ...


 
I go spar with some Kenpoka to focus on my kicking game, because there is little use for boxing in a Kyokushin/Kenpo rule-set. My buddy is a BB, and he is really progressive when it comes to ring-style fighting, and he goes full-contact with me. 

As for the Bodhidharma, MA history has become more and more of a hobby, insofar as it concerns Thai/Siamese arts. The age is irrelevant, I agree, I was just curious. 

I have incredible respect for Kenpoka, at least, the ones I know.


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## AdrenalineJunky (Jun 29, 2006)

I would like to add, if I may, the adage about training like you fight. I assume that there are two man drills that go to the head? Is there a way to train them at higher-speeds, against a resisting opponent? If you're looking to see good fighting in Kenpo, I believe a more (how do I say this?) not "realistic," because ring-fighting's not "real," (but neither is not practicing hitting people in the face), but maybe "practical" sparring circumstances would at least get your practitioners throwing to the head.

Does that make sense? Unless you drill it, can you rely on it being applied under chaotic circumstances? 

Sorry about the tangent. I seem to be really bad about hijacking threads. :asian:


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## Danjo (Jun 30, 2006)

There are many different goals in a physical confrontation and they all depend on what type of confrontation it is. 

1. There is the pure "self defense" situation where you are unprovokedly attacked by someone that presumable doesn't know you and therefore doesn't know what you know.

2. There is the situation where you are a person that is in a job where it is your job to get into physical altercations from time to time and you have to be able to handle the stituation effectively, i.e., Law Enforcement, Bouncers, Security, [School Teachers  ]

3. There is the "Fight" where it is two people squaring off and they may have some measure of each other in terms of ability.

4 There is the "contest" where the two opponents will very likely know who each other are and what they are capable of.

Every one of these will be fought differently. Most people are only concerned with the first situation and thus can be effective with any number of martial arts training. If someone attacks you and has no idea that you know how to defend yourself (and likely he won't if he's picking you to attack) you can likely fight him off enough to get away. If you're into one of the other types of hand-to-hand combat, then you'll have to  train with that in mind specifically.


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## still learning (Jul 2, 2006)

Hello, Have you notice..no matter the art...they all fight the same way...like boxing?   ...Aloha


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## KenpoDave (Jul 3, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> On the various boards I have noticed that every time a full contact fight is posted or discussed various people respond "Its a good fight but where's the Kenpo?" I was thinking about this because several weeks ago my son and I were watching the Bernard Hopkins fight and despite the fact that it was boxing with no kenpo training, I constantly saw aspects of Kenpo body mechanics and kenpo philosophy. I find that I see Kenpo in every full contact fight I watch, rule limited and sloppy but kenpo as I see it, none the less. There are only so many ways to move a body so I suspect successful systems always must have similarities.
> 
> Now my question. Does anyone believe that full contact kenpo can be done in the pretty flowing method it is practiced in?
> 
> ...


 
Implicit in the "It's a good fight but where's the kenpo" observation is an assumption that kenpo and kenpo techniques are the same thing.

The techniques are how the different systems TEACH kenpo.  Each system has their own techniques, we all teach kenpo.  

So, I would submit that a well trained kenpo stylist fighting full contact is doing kenpo, but perhaps not doing kenpo techniques, which parellels your observation while watching with your son.

I see elements of what I call kenpo in many other arts.  Others see elements of their art in what I call kenpo.  I believe that those who make a serious study of combat eventually will draw similar conclusions, and thus, move in a similar manner.


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## Kenpojujitsu3 (Jul 3, 2006)

"Kenpo" is just the delivery system of the skills.  The techniques are just chapters in the instruction manual with the forms and sets serving as tables of contents and appendices.


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