# 2 man set



## Inkspill (Jun 9, 2011)

anyone else practice 2 man set?


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## Blindside (Jun 9, 2011)

I used to, I don't find much use for it these days.


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## Inkspill (Jun 9, 2011)

thank you Blindside. would you be willing to elaborate?


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## Blindside (Jun 9, 2011)

Sure, I started doing Kali which involved several energy drills, once that get somewhat ingrained it started combining with my Kenpo, and now if I am doing counter-for-counter training with a partner, which is what that Two-Man set is about, I am doing it free-form rather than regimented as the 2-man set would have it.  I find it much more valuable that way and if I was to train a student nowadays I would start them on that approach rather than the Set.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 9, 2011)

It's funny. We still teach Two Man for the same reason Blindside doesn't. I teach it so my students can learn and practice the counter for counter activity in a regimented state and them we evolve the concept separately with drills and spontaneous activities.

I like Two Man. I like all the old Chinese sets. We teach them right around black belt and I think they're a great way to really polish your basics and make them look crisp and sharp.


-Rob


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## Blindside (Jun 9, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> It's funny. We still teach Two Man for the same reason Blindside doesn't. I teach it so my students can learn and practice the counter for counter activity in a regimented state and them we evolve the concept separately with drills and spontaneous activities.
> 
> I like Two Man. I like all the old Chinese sets. We teach them right around black belt and I think they're a great way to really polish your basics and make them look crisp and sharp.
> 
> ...


 
I guess that is one of my problems with it, starting counter for counter at black belt is too late (IMO), in Kali we would start that sort of drilling in the first week or so on basic material, you might not do it quite so early in kenpo, but with a regimented set like Two-Man where would stick it in the curriculum as an "intro?" If you leave it in place, the Set is like going back to elementary school and memorizing multiplication tables if you have been doing a good energy drill practice for as little as 6 months.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 9, 2011)

I still do it & teach it as well.


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## Inkspill (Jun 10, 2011)

we're learning it as part of 3rd brown (just passed green belt test last weekend yay me!)

I'm having fun and it's been interesting learning it, first 9 moves into it (5 for partner on the left, 4 for partner on the right)

I would like to do more drills like I've seen in wing chun (lap sao, chi sao, etc) and entry drills like I've seen on pendakar bob's youtube, etc. I figure that will come in time or might have to study those arts after black.


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## Blindside (Jun 10, 2011)

Inkspill said:


> we're learning it as part of 3rd brown (just passed green belt test last weekend yay me!)
> 
> I'm having fun and it's been interesting learning it, first 9 moves into it (5 for partner on the left, 4 for partner on the right)
> 
> I would like to do more drills like I've seen in wing chun (lap sao, chi sao, etc) and entry drills like I've seen on pendakar bob's youtube, etc. I figure that will come in time or might have to study those arts after black.


 
You might take a look at Zach Whitson's Counterpoint DVD for a good way to incorporate that sort of energy drilling into a kenpo framework.


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## Thesemindz (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry it took me so long to respond.

Ok, I may have given you the impression that we don't practice any kind of counter for counter training before this point, and that was my fault. I was imprecise. We practice interactive drills from the very first intro lesson. You can peruse my class plans for the last four months for some examples of how I do that.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95576 - March
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95582 - April
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95584 - May
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96472 - June

Basically, the beginner students learn to practice interactivity in a controlled environment. Even their spontaneous activities are regimented and strictly contextualized. When the students move into the intermediate level, they learn three ranges of fighting, karate fighting, street fighting, and ground fighting. At this level, they practice specific counter techniques in a static environment, and then practice applying them in spontaneous combat activities with gradually less and less structure. At the brown belt level, weapons are introduced to these activities, and the students begin practicing fighting with and without weapons against opponents with and without weapons. At the black belt level the students explore multiple opponent scenarios and applying more and more complex techniques.

But that is only a general outline. I have the beginners practice multiple opponent scenarios all the time, I just layer them inside basics practice and footwork drills. My students learn evasion, covering, blocking, jamming, controlling, and countering at every level.

What Two Man Set offers us at the level we teach it at is a complex striking/grappling prescripted exercise where the combatants move in and out, circle, change levels, and attack with hands and feet in combination with complex defensive and locking techniques. It's a chance to practice perfect weapon formulation in the heat of a close combat engagement. It's a chance to practice those counter for counter activities with three very distinct and sophisticated timings, and/then, with, and pre-emptive.

It's not that we've never practiced counter for counter activities before this point. It's that this is a very complex and sophisticated counter for counter kata designed to maintain these concepts within the knowledge base.

Is it necessary to teach the kata in order to teach the skills? Of course not. Kata is just one way to learn among many. That's why I said it was funny. The very reason you don't teach it is the very reason I do. I'm sure your way works for you and your students. My way works for me and my students.

Each of the different patterns has different lessons to teach. I teach this one at a certain place in my system because I want to work on those lessons at that point in the system. But it isn't the first time and it isn't the last.


-Rob


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## stickarts (Jun 11, 2011)

I have worked it and enjoyed it, however, it's not a required part of our curriculum.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Jun 11, 2011)

I still practice it, but since I practice alone, a lot of the value is lost. Mostly, I just practice it so as not to lose it.


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## Kenpo17 (Jun 17, 2011)

I used to see it all the time in demos.  The Demo team I was on for many years practiced and demonstrated it, but lately I have been seeing less and less of it, to the point I question if they took the two man set out of the system.


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