# Just some thoughts...comments?



## Tgace (Jan 29, 2005)

I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.

Most people are sheep. I recall when I was in college. I had a evening class in a large lecture hall. Every time I went there people would be standing outside the door waiting for the professor to show up, walk in and turn on the lights. One night I decided to try something. I walked right past everybody, went in, turned on the lights and sat down. Thats when I learned that 99% of leadership is "doing" and 1% "telling". Everybody just followed me in. Its the "somebody else will do it" thing.

The point? I was thinking about how a few terrorists with box cutters could do what they did. Outnumbered as they were. The story I have heard is that people on cell phones were telling their loved ones that the flight crew was telling everybody to remain seated and stay calm. Granted, that was SOP at the time, but it illustrates the tendency humans have to "follow". IMO much of it is because we give little thought to what we would do in these situations. Either out of denial (that will never happen to me) or believing somebody else will take action. In that situation, if the BG's had guns or explosives, I could see waiting. Contact weapons though...there was probably enough heavy objects in the overhead compartments alone to pummel those dirtbags to the deck just by throwing them.

I believe as martial artists, training for self defense, that techhnique is useless if the students mindset isnt propper. Somebody with no training, but a determination that they will never be forced into a truck at the hands of a killer. That they will die on the spot rather than be taken somewhere else to be tormented and killed. Is going to be more formidable than a black belt who hasnt made that conscious decision. 

Stories of the Samurai are filled with such examples. The way of the Samurai was "to take hold of the long and short swords and die". Now with that in mind, they trained daily because the goal was still to defeat the enemy. However they had already determined their mindset and that is what made them formidable warriors. Skill was secondary to mindset. Note I said secondary, not exclusive from. Skill followed close behind. Im not saying "forget about training if you have the right mindset" by any means. Just that training in any skill alone isnt going to do you any good if you are taken by suprise or are mentally unprepared to use those skills.

The best way to develop this "mindset" is to simply decide whats worth fighting for and how far you are willing to go to survive. Like the situation I mentioned before in regards to being forced into a vehicle. Dont become paranoid that these things are going to happen to you. Just decide what you are going to do. That way when the !!!! hits the fan the odds are better that you are going to act. This comes directly from LEO training. When I respond to a call I run through a general scenario in my head. How Im going to approach. If im going to wait for backup. Is this a "guns up" situation? What is the arrest plan going to be? Granted the way it turns out is never to plan, but the point isnt to make situations "fit" the plan. The point is to be ahead of the BG in the OODA game by having my "decide" list already narrowed down. That way I can hopefully Act faster than the BG can Orient on what Im doing. In your day to day life you can play this game too. "What am I going to do if a BG trys to hold up the store im in?" "What am I going to do if that guy on the corner approaches my car at this red light?" (did you leave enough space between the car ahead of you to pull around?) Play out a little scene in your head.

Last and probably most importantly, when the time comes to act, act. Better to be slow in the decision than halfhearted in the execution. And remember that "winning" is surviving, not beating your opponent. Do what you need to survive. If you can run, run. If this is a deadly force situation grab whatever can be used as a weapon. A pen, coffee mug, stapler, anything. I believe it was Musashi who (loosely) said "it is disgracefull do die with a weapon yet undrawn". All this H2H stuff is for when you are caught totally unprepared and unable to grab anything. Start there as a base, but not as an end all be all.


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## TigerWoman (Jan 29, 2005)

I'm on the same page. After that Texas abduction and murder of that 20 yr. old, I told my daughter I would have fought like hell before anyone got me in a car.  Better in the parking lot with everyone around.  Before I took MA, I found out how I would feel.   Someone followed me to the parking lot, grabbed me as I was sitting down in the car.  I got angry, furious, and I kicked him luckily in the groin and yelled at him, got away, started the car and got out of there.  Then the knees started knocking.  Its just a moments decision of instinct--fear or fearlessness.  Should have started martial arts then. TW


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## MA-Caver (Jan 29, 2005)

Indeed you are correct (both of you). In other posts I've advocated repeatedly "brain-training" on top of the physical training for Martial Arts/SD. Nothing beats experience, but in the case of Self-defense/fighting who the hell really *wants that* experience to begin with? Hopefully no-one honestly. It's no fun, it's scary as hell and painful to boot.  But, since we are involved with Martial Arts in one form or another we should prepare for the unexpected. Women in particular because (sadly) they're more likely to be the victim of an assault. With men it's going to probably be attributed to meeting some other guy who's exceeded their testosterone level for the month and wants to get bad-assed with anyone that looks at them the wrong way, more likely it's a guy at the wrong place at the wrong time, i.e. mugging or store robbery or wherever! 
Today I attended a caving-self-rescue class given by one of my old mentors. And even he stressed that nothing prepares one better than "brain-training". It's relevant to all of life's activities.  When driving we need to watch far enough ahead for the moron behind the wheel that could cause us to be in *their* accident. Whatever it is. But the topic here is self-defense and I'll stick with that.
It's one thing to prepare (mentally) in advance of various scenarios, it's still another to do it realistically enough and *honestly* enough (of your abilities) to be properly prepared for the unexpected. By realistic and honest I mean that whatever cool/neat/awesome moves you saw in the movies ... 99.999% of the time it ain't gonna work in real life. You must be totally honest with yourself of your current abilities to kick someones' hide. If you're a white or yellow belt, you're only going to do so much, but at least you're going to (hopefully) do it well enough to get you _out_ of that bad situation you're presently in. If you're a brown or BB then yeah, you got a whole repetoire of techniques to draw from to fit the situation whatever it may be, if you're somewhere in-between those two levels then you know (or should know) where you're gonna stand in a real fight. 
You should go through your house in the full dark and know where everything is, doorways, furniture, kitchen counters, etc. and be able to maneuver quickly to a place of safety. Brain train for that possibility: someone is in the house and I'm in here, the lights go out, how do I move to my place of safety  from where I'm at? What will (can) I do if confronted while getting there? 
From the office/store/mall building to your car think of your escape routes if someone confronts you. How far did you park and what other vehicles can you place between you and them while enroute? 
What are you wearing? Can you run effectively in those shoes (high heels or slick bottomed loafers/dress shoes)?   But point is to be realistic. Try it out whenever you can and where you won't have (too) many people looking at you strangely while you're practicing.  
The list goes on. 
Another level of preparedness is emotional. Like I said it's no fun and it's scary as hell when someone accosts you. Your mental state should help you with your emotional. Being calm and clear headed and assessing the situation (correctly I might add) will help knock down (but not eliminate) the fear factor considerably. You can always break down "knee-knocking" and trembling and crying later. I do. 
The mugger/robber/whomever is going to count more on their scaring the hell out of you so you _won't_ do anything than anything else. You'll be one up on the SOB's if you can tone down the fear that threatens to rise up inside when the attacker pulls out a knife or a gun or simply comes at you with raised fists. Your reaction should be like that at (MA) school during sparring and practice... calm and ready for anything, such are meeting an aggressor on the streets. 
(read my sigs again). 
 :asian:


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## Adept (Jan 30, 2005)

MACaver - I wanted to give you a greeny for that post, but MT tells me I must share the lovin' first. That was an excellent post.

 Whenever I'm teaching self defense, I emphasize over and over, at the start, at the end, and during the class (session, whatever) that the most important part of your body to train is your brain. You need to constantly be aware of your situation and the people around you. 

 It is also crucial to set 'triggers'. For example, you spill a guys beer in a pub, and he starts getting aggro and refuses to calm down. He's looking for a fight. You think to yourself, as he adances toward you; "I'm going to start acting defensively when he passes _that_ barstool. If he continues to act like this, and gets within [whatever your 'first strike' range is] then I'm going to act" Too many times people think they will be able to defend themselves, but leave it too late to act, or simply dont even realise a situation is developing.


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## Paul Genge (Jan 30, 2005)

The biggest hinderence to a person using a knife for self defence is the fear of what will happen when they do.  This is the same for applying unarmed defensive skills too.  

Most people that practice some form of martial art have little or no experience of real fights or dealing with the legal system.  This causes the consequences of using any form of self defence skill to be a big unknown.  This is usually enough to cause the majority of people to put of until it is too late using what they have learnt in a martial arts class.

The difference between the average criminal and an ordinary member of the public is that the criminal has been in fights and been involved with the law.  Both of these things give them an obvious advantage because their decission making process is going to be streamlined by experience.  It is therefore to learn from people who not only have the skills, but have the experience of dealing with the prefight decission making and aftermath of a fight.

I agree that one way of starting streamlining your own decission making is to give it some long and hard fought whilst in the comfort of your own home.  The difficult thing is to be honest and to put your pride aside. Otherwise you will try to convince yourself that you will react in certain situations a certain way, but when faced with it you will react according to your personality and not what you planned.

Another thing to do is learn about the law in your country.  Try to learn from a Police officer if you train with one.  This person should have some experience of applying the law to the post fight situation for it to be of real benifit.

Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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## Autocrat (Jan 30, 2005)

It's a very serious issue..... and difficult to prevent from occuring.

   Almost from birth, in most societies, we are taught "violence is wrong", "you shouldn't have to resort to violence", "ignore them and they will go away"... and other such BS!

   I can only begin to describe the troubles and issues I had through school, college, even in the work place due to aaggrevation, attacks or simple bullying.  My father trained in several MA's, and even my mother took up combat judo.  I was taught to spot the trouble and put it out, fast!

   Our societies currently breed sheep and lambs, bleating for attention and calling forth wolves!  Whats worse, i'ts the same societies that breed the wolves!

   To deal wit hthe brain conditioning, I've only found one method of practice that works.  Get a person who wishes to learn, and start gently... explain the situation, explain what is about to occur, and get them to state what they think they would do.  Then enact the scenario.  Step by step, slowly build the movements.  Alter their reactions until they are comfortable.  Then increase the speed, the tension, and the general atmosphere of aggression.  After 20-30 minutes of that every other night, 9say a total of 4 hours0, if you leave it a couple of days, then approach them from behind and try something, you general find yourself on the end of a strike!

It's all down to the individual.  If they don't want to be aggressive,violent, reactive... then they are going to be wolfed up!  If they are willing to defend themselves in what ever means are necessary, then I feel it's our duty to help..... the same as it should be if you see something happening.... politely enquire if help is needed, then thump the F'er over the head whilst they answer you!

   Yet the most important thing of all is to teach them to spot the problem whilst not to be seen looking for it!  The nteach them to run like hell.  
I'm violent... I'm willing to hit out and put someone down for a long time if it is necessary... yet my sister had similar training as a child... yet prefered making people suffer and bullying them!  You can't trust the person to use what they are taught for good.... so teach everyone to see it coming and run, or prepare for the consequences!
Hell, if I wasn't so stupid when I get angry, I'd walk away too, yet..... der... ug... bash! LOL

   As for the legal side.... if they actually studied the MA's rather than believing the stuff on telly, it wouldf be easier.  Further, who in their right mind is going to pick on 5 blokes in a pub!  Yet just because you are the one to walk away relatively unhamed, you get slammed for it!  Sod the CCTV, the witnesses etc.... it's because of the injuries you dealt out that you get punished... not because of guilt!  The legal system is shot away... not alot can be done with it except teach MA/SD practioners the ropes, how to answer and unfortunately, how to lie!
That way, if they need to use it, and get caught, they may not have to suffer for it!


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## Gray Phoenix (Jan 30, 2005)

Great topic... 

When I was in Junior High, I was roughed up on a pretty regular basis. I was the nerdy kid and of a minority race in the area I grew up in. I was an easy target for any wannabe predator. On one particular occasion, I was grabbed by 4 and beaten by another. Upon reporting this to the dean I was told that I did the right thing in not fighting back!! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 I had the option of pressing charges, but if I had fought back I was told that I would have been expelled for fighting as well.:angry: 

Well I'm a grown man now, and not a total Jujitsu noob; (although, I still recognize I'm a noob
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




) this will never happen again. I may still get roughed up, I may even lose, but there will be at least 1 or 2 guys on a stretcher next to me.


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## michaeledward (Jan 30, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.
> 
> Most people are sheep.


You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'.

Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings.

michaeledward


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## Gray Phoenix (Jan 30, 2005)

> _You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'._





> _Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings_


 .



Most people are sheep. I believe the quote from Abraham Lincoln directly addresses and warns us against this very fact.



"America will never be destroyed from the outside. If we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
--Abraham Lincoln 

Freedoms are rarely taken away they are most often given freely.


It would also explain how our planets various despots come to power and then dynasties... I dont think that because someone is a follower and not a leader that this is some kind of put down, but the analogy of the sheep and the herder still applies, although most certainly not to all, and I would guess it would not apply to most MA practitioners.


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## TigerWoman (Jan 30, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.
> 
> Most people are sheep.



Well, considering how many people are actually in martial arts, pro-active in wanting to be able to defend themselves, that says alot about people as sheep.  They don't choose to.  

Sheep do not want to fight or even think about fighting. They follow. 

Sheep are also those that believe the common advice to submit to an attacker and you might get away with your life.  TW


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## Tgace (Jan 30, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> You lost me with that second sentence. Anything you might have wanted to discuss is lost as soon as you called me a 'sheep'.
> 
> Nice to know you have so much respect for your fellow human beings.
> 
> michaeledward


Many people are egotistical sheep that think everything is about them....


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## michaeledward (Jan 30, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Many people are egotistical sheep that think everything is about them....


When I see a statement that *"Most People are Sheep";*

I think that by using the adjective 'most' the speaker intends to say 'some percentage greater than half". Perhaps the speaker does not mean as many as, oh, 80% of the people, because at that point I would expect a phrase like 'vast majority'. But I also think the speaker is not talking about 52% or 53%.  No, but 'Most', I would assume the speaker means perhas 6 out of 10, or 7 out of 10.

With the noun, 'People', I would take it to mean the speaker intends his 'fellow citizens', or perhaps those people whose culture is close to his own; sharing the same language and experiences. Certain, in this case, I might generalize to think the speaker is talking about either a) North Americans, or, perhaps if we were to cast a wider net, b) those descended from the English Empire (Great Britian, North America, Austrailia & New Zealond, and perhaps India).

Certainly, I would think, based on these assumptions, the speaker contains a bit of arrogance and superiority. Further, by definition, I would expect that I would fit into the group the speaker is calling 'Sheep'. I have no reason to see why I would fit into the minority that is not 'Most'.

Any way I interpret the sentence '*Most people are sheep*', it comes as an insult; whether intended as such or not. Sure makes it hard to have a conversation.

Go in peace, Great Shepard.

Mike


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## Sapper6 (Jan 30, 2005)

great topic Tgrace.

@ michael

save the english lesson for another time.  Tgrace is right.  most people are sheep.  of course the MA trains us otherwise.  i don't see how in the world you could disagree with what's been stated.  then again...


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## Tgace (Jan 30, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> great topic Tgrace.
> 
> @ michael
> 
> save the english lesson for another time. Tgrace is right. most people are sheep. of course the MA trains us otherwise. i don't see how in the world you could disagree with what's been stated. then again...


Its rarely about the (intended) message.....


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## Tgace (Jan 30, 2005)

Gray Phoenix said:
			
		

> It would also explain how our planets various despots come to power and then dynasties... I dont think that because someone is a follower and not a leader that this is some kind of put down, but the analogy of the sheep and the herder still applies, although most certainly not to all, and I would guess it would not apply to most MA practitioners.


Yes. But I would say that just taking MA classes is a first step. Ive met many technically proficient MA that I can just "sense" are still hesitant, indecisive, and lacking in "fighting spirit" if you understand me. We all have to achieve our own "mindset". MA is a tool to get there IMHO, but nobody is going to "give it to you".


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## Adept (Jan 30, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Any way I interpret the sentence '*Most people are sheep*', it comes as an insult; whether intended as such or not.


 Sometimes the truth hurts.


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## An Eternal Student (Jan 31, 2005)

You do run into a lot of people doing martial arts however, who never really hink about what they're doing.They go into class and go through the motions in class, but they never do anything to make sure they could use them in an actual fight.Similarily there are people who never wonder about the effectiveness of their training.They think "This is the traditional way it was done, the way it has always been done" without realising that there are different factors to take account of these days, ie the original moves may have have been designed for fighting against armoured opponents.On the other hand you have people of the mentality "if its brand new, then it must be true", and simply accept whatever is most modern (even if its not very well thought out).When it comes down to it, even among martial artists, there are people who prefer others to do their thinking for them.


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## Bod (Jan 31, 2005)

Well if you don't blindly agree with all us wolves that makes you a sheep Michael. :shrug:


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## loki09789 (Jan 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> I have been giving some thought to how much of the self-defense issue is simply having made a decision to act.
> 
> Most people are sheep. I recall when I was in college. I had a evening class in a large lecture hall. Every time I went there people would be standing outside the door waiting for the professor to show up, walk in and turn on the lights. Last and probably most importantly, when the time comes to act, act. Better to be slow in the decision than halfhearted in the execution. And remember that "winning" is surviving, not beating your opponent.


Tgace knows where I stand on this idea. Considering we spent much of our youth either beating each other up, egging each other on or flat out inspiring each other to do 'crazy' stuff (skydiving, joining the service, rock climbing, big 80's Ninja wannabe stuff, martial arts, theater, writing....) I can see where this 'no life half lived idea' is even larger than just martial arts and self defense to Tgace.

We 'learn' (or more importantly develop the behavioral patterns) of leading, following or getting out of the way from the way we live all the details of our lives. Sometimes we have to unlearn this habit or learn discretion so that we make good initiative decisions.

Unfortunately, I think that as a modern trend, 'cooperation' has turned people into followers instead of 'team players.' I see it in my son at times when he talks about gym class or even music. "Second violins are just as important as first violins, says Mrs. XYZ" is his response when I tell him that being promoted to first violin is a sign of improvement and that it is okay to strive for personal best.....

Second violins ARE as important to the whole as first violins BUT, generally speaking, first violins are FIRST because they are better players.

I have never really been the wall flower in a group and at times that has meant that my mistakes or failed attempts have been very obvious and noticeable, but I have LEARNED from those mistakes - in and out of martial arts. I took those risks knowing that there was a risk...and learned that there is a price to acting, but a larger ones usually (life long regret at the very least) if you don't act.

I think as instructors and parents, it is sooo important to do more than pay lip service to the idea that people can have "good initiative" but may have exercised "poor judgement" and give people, students and ourselves room to screw up but learn from that. When we were in the Bos, I use to tell my squad that it wasn't the mistakes that we made that defined our character but how we dealt with them afterwards. On the positive, be accountable for yourself, learn from it, identify what needs to be corrected and move on. On the negative, deny, deflect and lay blame/cut someone else down to make yourself feel better and you'll just do it all over again later on.

Though I don't think that one automatically leads to the other, I do think that daily practice of moral/character and leadership habits in a moral courage way can make physical courage/crisis leadership habits easier to 'learn.'


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## An Eternal Student (Jan 31, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Unfortunately, I think that as a modern trend, 'cooperation' has turned people into followers instead of 'team players.' I see it in my son at times when he talks about gym class or even music. "Second violins are just as important as first violins, says Mrs. XYZ" is his response when I tell him that being promoted to first violin is a sign of improvement and that it is okay to strive for personal best.....
> 
> Second violins ARE as important to the whole as first violins BUT, generally speaking, first violins are FIRST because they are better players.
> 
> '



I think there was a bit in the Incredibles that summed up this all quite nicely.
"Everyone's special,dear"
"Isnt that just another way of saying nobody is?"

Society has become so Politically Correct about everyone being special and important, that most people have lost any desire to improve themselves.


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## FearlessFreep (Jan 31, 2005)

*Harrison Bergeron
*"All men are not created equal. It is the purpose of the Government to make them so."


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## bluenosekenpo (Jan 31, 2005)

An Eternal Student said:
			
		

> You do run into a lot of people doing martial arts however, who never really hink about what they're doing.They go into class and go through the motions in class, but they never do anything to make sure they could use them in an actual fight.Similarily there are people who never wonder about the effectiveness of their training.They think "This is the traditional way it was done, the way it has always been done" without realising that there are different factors to take account of these days, ie the original moves may have have been designed for fighting against armoured opponents.On the other hand you have people of the mentality "if its brand new, then it must be true", and simply accept whatever is most modern (even if its not very well thought out).When it comes down to it, even among martial artists, there are people who prefer others to do their thinking for them.


:asian: 
Sheep, wolves and tigers exist in every facet of life, it was expressed quite succintly in the following observation, that the ma's are not above this. it is up to you to decide what you are, in the ma's and in life.

Training: Tigers and Sheep​

Sometimes karate training can be called training as a tiger or training as

a sheep. If you train as a tiger -- hard training and body conditioning --

you can always train with tigers. Other tigers will also recognize you and

you can train in peace with them. They know that when two tigers really

fight that one will die of injuries today and the other will die of injuries

tomorrow. Both will die, so they have nothing to prove.



If you train like a sheep -- no contact and no two-man conditioning --

then you can only train with sheep. A tiger can train with tigers and he can

also train with sheep. He just has to be careful not to hurt them. A sheep

cannot train with tigers. Sheep see tigers as being very frightening and

their conditioning, he says, will cause cancer. A sheep training with tigers

will get eaten up.



Sometimes you see a sheep who sees the truth of tiger training and

changes. In reality this sheep was actually a tiger in sheep's clothing

waiting to come out.



Watch people training. Look at how they act and how they behave. A tiger

can be like a little kitty but dangerous even though he is friendly. They

are quiet and watch everything. They listen and watch. They know who they

are and they have nothing to prove -- they are at peace.



Sheep, on the other hand, make all kinds of noises and demand to be heard.

They run around and seem to crave attention. They are easily hurt and easily

scared. They always group together for their own protection. When danger

approaches they look towards the group for protection because they cannot

defend themselves. They are easy prey for tigers -- whether it is one sheep

or several, sheep are still sheep.



-- Ryuko Tomoyose, Uechi-ryu



regards


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## Autocrat (Jan 31, 2005)

An interesting turn on the topic......

Society is doing sdome strange things.... in the education system in England, we are no longer permitted to have sports days with competative events... this leads to losers and competativeness.... which is apparently bad!

So saying, this sort of thing is also occuring i the work place.... you don't get "worker of the month" and that sort of thing, you all get a pat on the back!

If this is followed to the logical conclussion, then everyone will be the same, have no drive to perform or achieve above average results etc...... and we'll all turn into sheep due to excternal influences from our peers, (which by rights, according to them, we don't actually have ?)

((NO OFFENCE RE: SHEEP - grossly generalised terminology! LOL))

SO, shouldn't it be the other way around... rather than nu,llifying the sense of participation and achievement, shouldn't it be aimed at encouraging the lesser performinag parts of society to become greater performing parts?

Along the same lines, we could generate a society doesn't frown upon or punish physical violence, only it's uses.... thus those that practice such things are accepted, whilst those that use it for the wrong reasons are punished!!!!  ((Hey, wait a minute, isn't that in the law... you know, legally being able to defend ones self with the means necessary as the situation dictates??? YES, then why do I keep being arrested and charged for kicking the S out of people that try mugging me????)


We really ought to create a big drive about this, in every country possible.... that way it will get the emdia attention it needs and something could be done about it!  

"NO MORE FLEECE, I WANT TEETH" and that sort of thing! LOL


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## loki09789 (Jan 31, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> *Harrison Bergeron
> *"All men are not created equal. It is the purpose of the Government to make them so."


LIke the idea, but I would say that it is the government's job to provide equal opportunity.

We all have the same opportunities to an education (though the quality may vary) and social services that can help you climb out of holes/bad spells (and don't try to bilk the system) so that you can create as stable a life as possible and get some kind of trade/educational skill/job that will take you to the next step and so on.

Yes, starting points will vary, but those services are there.  They are not run perfectly, they are not a complete blanket, but it would be far worse without them at all.

I know a neighbor of my ex's that was living on adjusted housing, taking dental hygenist classes at the local junior college AND working (as much as she could without losing social services support) while raising an infant totally alone.  Within 2 years she had a trade, started a job and was well on her way to getting totally off social services.  She used that 'equal opportunity' that was available and took charge of her future.  She was literally alone too.  No family, boyfriend/husband...anyone.  The neighbors all pitched in for each other some but that isn't something that you can always count on or trust.

She was leadership material as far as I am concerned.  She took charge and made a difference personally.  That is the beginning of any leadership training, leading yourself.


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## still learning (Jan 31, 2005)

Hello, The average person " the regular good person" are not expecting to get into a attack by others. When this happens alot of people are not prepare and will freeze because this is an unexpected thing. (Shock by it) Plus most of us are taught not to get into a fight?

 Our martial training is about self- defense and not fighting back like in real street fight style. Continuous hitting untill the other person cannot fight back. Who trains like that? Every fight will be diffferent and in a different surroundings and hours of the day. Best thing is to read books by guys who are experience in the real street fighting, like the book "Real Fighting" will make you think harder at your own training style? Can we be prepare for the unknown attack on us? that can happen when we least expect it? Kinda of like driveing down the road and someones cut right in front you "bang" that's it. Now what?

 PS>In the book it says the only way your punches, kicks and strikes will work is to really hit full contact and watch the reaction of it.  Many times you will be surprise the strike may not be effected to the other guy you had hit?  Who can train full power strikes on other person for real and real training? and see the affects of your hits?


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## Autocrat (Feb 1, 2005)

...still learning...
Depending on what you are doing, you don't need full force... just hit the right spot!
(easier said than done! LOL).
Seriously, if your techniques is correct, and the target correct, you will win, in a few moves they can be on the floor crying, gasping or completely out!  No one hit wonder techniques, just simply employ strikes to the throat, groin, kneecaps, ankles, elbows or ribs!
I've had situations where I have belted someone in the ribs with two right hooks, and felt the ribs go, yet the bugger still tried taking me out!!!! Taking his ankle out put him down, and he couldn't get back up!
No full power, just two short sharp jabs to the ribs with a little hip movement, then a low round house kick to the base of the leg!
Simple really!

As for the affectiveness of attacks... they vary from practitioner to practitioner, target to target!  I have about 40-60% body nerves that work!  Most of the time my sensei's try out a pressurepoint, vital point or nervecluster attack, and get no response or a slight give when I should have crumpled!  Don't rely on these sort of things!  Train for them, but train more for physiological weakneses in the mechanics of the body rather than all those wonderful nerve based sweet spots!  If you are attacked by someone like me, then the only thing that will help you is taking out limbs and joints through angle strikes... attacking points won't be effective!  Also, you don't need a lot of force to wrench a wrist, jar and elbow or take a knee joint out!  Just a bit of moment and the right angle!

Try training for that sort of thing instead!
Best moves..... side kick to ankle/knee/hip-pelvis.....snap kick - flick kick to groin/inner thigh/shin.....flick to groin/throat/eyes/nose......slap to side of head/nose/throat......spear hand or short jab to ribs/solar plexus/lower abdominals.....and if they grab you, simple grab hand/arm, step back and round!

These are the things I feel work on almost everyone..... keep it short, sharp and vicious.  It's you or them... I'd rather it was them!


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## An Eternal Student (Feb 1, 2005)

It seems society is increasingly encouraging us to accept mediocrity.No matter how well intentioned it is, to make everyone equal, it also robs people of any desire to improve.It's political correctness taken to yet another ridiculous extreme.


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 1, 2005)

_Like the idea, but I would say that it is the government's job to provide equal opportunity._

It helps to see the movie


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## lonecoyote (Feb 1, 2005)

Someone should slow down this bandwagon. Everytime I see this discussion it turns into an elitist thing, in other words "Most people are sheep, but not me of course, I'm a Tiger, (Wolf, Aardvark, whatever)" This is what most people are alluding to. Feeling superior. Almost everybody acts like a sheep sometimes. Take someone out of their depth, put them in unfamiliar, uncomfortable circumstances and they will cling to the group and its actions and opinions. Happens in forums too. Everyone is coming from a certain point of view on this thread. Baa Baa. People can have certain sheep like(?) characteristics, which can be detrimental in a self defense situation, these characteristics can be changed through training and mindset. People aren't one thing or another as far as this kind of thing goes, it exists along a continuum. We can change and learn to defend ourselves, which is what some of these great posts say. I only have a problem with those who seek to make broad, sweeping categorizations of society. These generalizations rarely hold up and are rarely productive. Better instead to look at individuals and how they can make themselves safer.


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## Tgace (Feb 1, 2005)

Well thats a far friendlier conversation to have..and I agree. Strange how one sentence, which was far from the point I was trying to make has become (turned into) the crux though.....


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 1, 2005)

I dunno...I read something like "most people are sheep" and turn it into introspection.wondering if I actually fall into the category of 'most people' being used by the person saying it.  Maybe it's time to look at myself and think about what's being said...it's happened before.

If I don't fit, then that's good and at least the introspection was useful.  If I do fit, then it's a good thing someone said something and I took the time to be honest with myself


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## Bod (Feb 2, 2005)

The 'people are sheep' line and the 'we call them sheeple' comment appear constantly in MA discussion.

It kind of misses the point. When a group of youths attacks a single male of larger build are they sheep? Hyenas? Jackals?

Some of the individuals are often just going along with the pack/herd. They are exhibiting the same group dependency as the next guy.

About three years ago on one board there was a discussion about a man who didn't get involved to help his friend in a fight. 'He was just a sheep', 'he should have learnt MAs', 'he is despicable' etc.

I replied that the same thing had happened with me, but I understood the inaction of my friend. He doesn't do MA because he is a jobbing piano player. Any finger injury would mean he'd starve for 3 months. The incident was over in 3 seconds. He wasn't a sheep. He was an artist of great quality who'd brought the joy of music to many people, especially as choir master at my local church.

Lonecoyote (worthy of the name) expressed it perfectly. Baaing in unison 'They aaaaare sheeeeep' doesn't make you any more resistant to danger. the only useful attitude is to look for the sheep inside yourself and understand it: what it is for, when it is useful, when not so, how to get around it, how to get along with it.


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## Tgace (Feb 2, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Tgace knows where I stand on this idea. Considering we spent much of our youth either beating each other up, egging each other on or flat out inspiring each other to do 'crazy' stuff (skydiving, joining the service, rock climbing, big 80's Ninja wannabe stuff, martial arts, theater, writing....) I can see where this 'no life half lived idea' is even larger than just martial arts and self defense to Tgace.
> 
> We 'learn' (or more importantly develop the behavioral patterns) of leading, following or getting out of the way from the way we live all the details of our lives. Sometimes we have to unlearn this habit or learn discretion so that we make good initiative decisions.
> 
> ...


Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:

Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??


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## loki09789 (Feb 2, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:
> 
> Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??


I think I still have some of them that you loaned me.

Hey! Where is my copy of "TAO OF POOH!" Do you still have that?


It is 'interesting' though that with all the ways this conversation starter could have gone, it had to be steered onto a tangent of defending one term usage....I wonder who 'led us down the dark path' on that one?


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## michaeledward (Feb 2, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Wow..finding some personal, deeper meaning instead of focusing on the word "sheep"...:shrug:
> 
> Were on the same page...heck we read the same textbooks didnt we??


Gee, I thought the post was asking for 'comments?'. I didn't realize you only wanted 'comments' that agreed with your point of view.



			
				loki09789 said:
			
		

> I think I still have some of them that you loaned me.
> 
> Hey! Where is my copy of "TAO OF POOH!" Do you still have that?
> 
> ...


This is my third post on this thread ... obviously, I am posting excessively. Don't be afraid to add me to your 'Ignore' list. Honest, it won't hurt my feelings.

Mike


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## DarrenJew (Feb 2, 2005)

A quote from the "Tao of Pooh"


"Lots of people talk to animals," said Pooh. 
"Not that many _listen_ though." 
"That's the problem."


​


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## loki09789 (Feb 2, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> Gee, I thought the post was asking for 'comments?'. I didn't realize you only wanted 'comments' that agreed with your point of view.
> 
> 
> This is my third post on this thread ... obviously, I am posting excessively. Don't be afraid to add me to your 'Ignore' list. Honest, it won't hurt my feelings.
> ...


No one is asking for instant agreement, but knitpicking a term usage over all the other substantial tangents seems....well knitpicky.

There is no fear of reading or ignoring your posts.  As this thread deals with personal leadership and 'unsheepish' behavior, by all means lead, follow or get out of the way as you see fit (that means if you think using 'ignore' is a viable option, go for it).  I am doing fine myself.


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## Tgace (Feb 2, 2005)

Alright lets change "People are sheep" to "Most people have innate social programming to go along with the group." Reread and see if that makes a difference.....


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## MA-Caver (Feb 2, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Alright lets change "People are sheep" to "Most people have innate social programming to go along with the group." Reread and see if that makes a difference.....


:lol: it still reads "BAA" to me... :lol: 
But that *is* a better way of saying it. grins


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## Autocrat (Feb 2, 2005)

LOL
Well done!
Whats more, it works well!

Please, for those of you that dislike the term SHEEP or such, please don't be offended, it is a term commonly used, even in the psych- and Socio- fields..... it's not a term for insult, it's a term for generalisation.

Alternatively, go for the Greek alternatives for defining people..........
Wolves.... pack instinct, seldomly loners or do things of their own accord.
Lone Wolves...... singular, seldomly follow others, can be edgy in groups.
Bear..... Seldom found to be social, yet when do so are loud, wild.
Lion..... Seldom in groups, seldom work together.  When mixed, tend to be violent....
and so on.... these are still GROSS GENERALISATIONS..... yet tend not to include small farm animals tha tpeople can be offended by... almost all are predators.....
(I think it's greek... maybe roman or such! LOL)


BACK TO THE THREAD!

Lets try a quick whip round..... how about every one who has been in a situation or thought one might occur, post what their reactions where ?  You know, put whether you positioned yourself to cover  the most approaches, moved to the neasrest exit, placed things ready to grab and use, got into a comfortable stance, lashed out when someone asked for directions, hit a granny who sneaked up behind you, froze when they smacked you in the mouth, that sort of thing?

It would just be interesting to see the results! ? !
No / Yes ?
Atleast that way we can see


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## Autocrat (Feb 2, 2005)

Oops... (forget... the reason I wanted people to do this is to wee whether people react in set ways in these situations... you know, that Freeze, Fight or Flight thing!  I can't help but wonder if there is a difference in response based on age or training, gender or mindset, that sort of thing!)


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## MA-Caver (Feb 2, 2005)

Autocrat said:
			
		

> LOL
> Well done!
> Whats more, it works well!
> 
> ...


Likely it's Orwellism as in Animal Farm... worthwhile reading btw.


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## someguy (Feb 2, 2005)

I'm a sheep and I got to tell you I ain't changing.  To much work to be a shepher and I don't want to be a wolf.  
Wolves still follow a pack.


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 3, 2005)

Bod said:
			
		

> The 'people are sheep' line and the 'we call them sheeple' comment appear constantly in MA discussion.
> 
> It kind of misses the point. When a group of youths attacks a single male of larger build are they sheep? Hyenas? Jackals?
> 
> ...


Creative sheep. Maybe "grass eater" would be a more politically correct term. "Wolves"...going along with the "pack"....I see a trend. 

Call it what you want, but grass eating tendencies seem pretty widespread. Not that a world full of sheep is a bad thing, it's just that all the weight of all those sheep hiding behind a few sheep dogs when the wolves they never believed existed shows up at the door that's a pain in the rear. Then sheep don't argue about definitions, they just "baaaahhh" for someone to protect them. Of course, if the sheep dogs do their job right, sheep get to think philosophical thoughts about the non-existence of wolves and the real lack of need for sheep dogs.  That must be why sheep get offended about being called sheep.  If the wool fits.


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 3, 2005)

Most people *are* sheep. naturally sheep don't want to be called sheep, especially when Hollywierd tells everyone they are warriors and bad asses, by proxy at the movies. But those who are not sheep can see the sheep bleat and graze, while we, the wolves (bad guys)  or sheepdogs (good guys) do our thing.

2 to 3 % of American citizens who can _easily_ obtain concealed carry permits to legally carry handguns for self defense, do so.

I suspect the number of real martial artists is at least that low, maybe lower.

Number of physically able persons who train in serious self defense/fighting arts *and* carry handguns on the street for defense of themselves, family and friends? *Infinitesimal ! *


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## loki09789 (Feb 3, 2005)

Autocrat said:
			
		

> LOL
> 
> Lets try a quick whip round..... how about every one who has been in a situation or thought one might occur, post what their reactions where ? You know, put whether you positioned yourself to cover the most approaches, moved to the neasrest exit, placed things ready to grab and use, got into a comfortable stance, lashed out when someone asked for directions, hit a granny who sneaked up behind you, froze when they smacked you in the mouth, that sort of thing?
> 
> ...


With the 'average' lifestyle of most of us, the number of 'incidents' will probably be pretty low, but I see this as moments when people either 'take charge' or 'sit back and wait for instructions' from the group or an individual that has taken charge.

Examples:

1. Pregnant woman walks into a room that is limited on seating room. I will look around and see if anyone else has already made the gesture to offer their seat. If no one has, then I will. Why wait? So it doesn't turn into a contest of who gets to do the good deed, the deed is the important thing, not the doer.

2. A group of able bodied people talking while someone is struggling with a broken down car, a heavy load...what ever. Just like any situation, I would use awareness to assess the risk factor (bait, traffic, ....) and then offer help - and have done so in the past. Usually what will happen, if someone else hasn't already stepped up, is that the others will follow and add their assistance.

3. There was an incident a long time ago when a single security guard chased a suspected shop lifter across an open field into the back of a housing development through deep snow. He was alone with this guy and outsized (Bad guy looked like a short stocky lineman, guard looked like a short thin cross country runner). I followed and offered assistance. We hemmed him in until the cops came and cuffed him. No fuss no muss. The guard, IMO was overzealous because he put himself at letigious and physical risk by pursuing this guy off the property and getting isolated like that.  But, I didn't feel right leaving him alone because of his poor judgement.

I know these aren't dramatic or 'self defense' situations but they are everyday moments when people can take the initiative/read a situation and break the cycle of 'sheepishness.' Heck, even just getting on the Cell phone and calling in to 911 what you saw is stepping out of the pasture IMO.


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 3, 2005)

Loki,

 That's wierd, I have done all three of these things myself. Some of us just cannot stand by when something clear and stark must be done to help. It is imperative to assess the situation in advance, and have excellent judgement, so as not to be _baited_ as you state, or to intervene _on the wrong side_.

The flat I fixed was for two women in the open, clearly alone by the road side. No chance it was a bait and I was armed, concealed pistol.

The shoplifter was a large fast man running out of the store and the chaser was obviously a store employee, he did a great job over taking and tackling the guy but he had no cuffs and the struggle was ongoing when I got there and told the runner to stop resisting. He did when he realized two of us were there, and I had a pair of cuffs in the trunk of my car which I lent to the plainclothed security guard. We escorted the shoplifter inside and I got my cuffs back. My main concern was that the runner might have a weapon and the security guard was alone in the lot.


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## Tgace (Feb 3, 2005)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> With the 'average' lifestyle of most of us, the number of 'incidents' will probably be pretty low, but I see this as moments when people either 'take charge' or 'sit back and wait for instructions' from the group or an individual that has taken charge.
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


Excellent rephrasing of my exact point (how you do that?  )....point is, what you are talking about is simply a conscious decision. No training required. Making that decision to ACT however obligates you to get some training so you arent more of a danger to yourself or others than you are a help.


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## Tgace (Feb 3, 2005)

So does MA training have the capability to impart "mindset" on a student? In other words will MA training alone make somebody capable of defending themselves?

IMO, a person has to come to a decision within themselves that no training is going to impart. The training may alter a persons opinion of themselves and what they are capable of, but that decision is still only theirs to make.


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 3, 2005)

I had no official adult martial arts training in the above events which were years ago. I did have a very eventful life and experience and my upbringing taught me to respond and to help the innocent.. it's more of a moral issue IMO,and the fact that I had confidence in my natural abilities. I am much better able to deal with something serious these days, armed or unarmed, due to training and even more experience.


But I think the reason some folks act to help is just natural good Samaritan thinking. It's something you either have or don't have, again my opinion. Fear or selfishness will cause most to walk on by, even in a clear, evident scenario.


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## loki09789 (Feb 4, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> But I think the reason some folks act to help is just natural good Samaritan thinking. It's something you either have or don't have, again my opinion. Fear or selfishness will cause most to walk on by, even in a clear, evident scenario.


So, are MA schools and public schools wasting their time then when they include 'citizenship/self less service/community' in their list of things they try to impart on students?

I agree that there may be people more inclined to step in because of some genentic thing, but that doesn't mean that people can't develop that skill through reinforcement, nurturing and plain old 'get off your lazy butt' effort.


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## Tgace (Feb 4, 2005)

Some good points Ive picked up from various sources...

1. Your mind is your greatest asset or weakness, depending on how serious you take self-defense.


2. Accept that it can happen to you and probably will sometime in your lifetime.


3. What if What would you do? This is where you need to think about the response you will make if put in any imaginable circumstance. Then develop a plan of action for each event. It's much easier to make a wise decision when you have had time to think and prepare instead of when you are suddenly confronted without warning or planning.


4. Visualize your plan. I call this mental imagery training. It's a must if you're serious about self-defense. You visualize a perpetrator attacking you and you visualize your measured and strong response. You must be able to see yourself taking action and exerting the will to win.


5. Always follow your gut feeling. The golden rule is "If something seems wrong, it probably is."


6. Weapons are no good if you don't know how to use them confidently and effectively and a weapon is no good if you can't get your hands on it immediately.


7. Never go with an attacker to a second location. Your first priority should be to get away, no matter what you have to do.


8. Ninety percent of all criminals use some method of deception to attract their victims.


9. If an attacker has grabbed you, focus on the parts of your body that are free and the attacker's weak spots (eyes, groin, throat, little finger, etc.) and use them to get away.


10. Never pull a weapon you are not prepared to use. It could be used on you.


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## Autocrat (Feb 5, 2005)

Interesting turn on it.... but I like it!

I've found that there are certain mindsets / personalities that perform certain tasks, respond in set ways to particular stimuli etc.  Never thought about that occuring with MA though... maybe it's the way we are raised, the things we watch... the same things that help decide to do MA's maybe what spurs us to be helpful, chivalrus or plain friendly.....

Like the bit about assessing situations, danger etc..... I had to perform a study on assessing risk and acting on such.... I was the only one out of 320 odd test subjects that will act in any situation so long as the chances aren't 100%, be it complete success or complete failure!... (I always feel 3 to 1 or 20% chances are good... keep you thinking on your toes! LOL)... then againn, I've been hit by 5 cars, fallen from a 3rd floor window, electricuted twice, drowned once...... just lucky, or am I judging the chances rather well ? ! ?   *grin*

Seriously though, it really is the mind set of the pratitioner that makes all the difference... if you have trained for years, yet aren't willing to give it a go, then you will lose / freeze / panic etc.  If you are convinced you have a chance, and act on it... then you may succeed.  My concern has always been neing the one to walk away... before the fight occurs, or after it, I don't care which!


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