# Wing Chun styles you'd like to learn



## Marnetmar (Oct 10, 2015)

Anyone have some WC styles other than your own you'd like to learn if only there were an opportunity?

I'd be super stoked to learn the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung style and possibly the Gu Lao village style. Learning the Wong Shun Leung style from someone like Phillip Bayer or David Petersen would be pretty awesome too.


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## wckf92 (Oct 10, 2015)

I don't think I'd like to learn an entire different lineage...but I would be interested in interacting with / comparing / contrasting with the Yuen Kay San folks; Gu Lao; and Pan Nam perhaps.


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2015)

Same here, WCKF92.  I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.

I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn _his_ American variation of the _German_ variation of _LT's Hong Kong variation_ of Yip Man's lineage of WCK.  That's more than enough for me!

On the other hand, I also work with the DTE guys who don't exactly teach Wing Chun, ...in fact they don't exactly teach techniques at all. They mostly just teach me how to apply what I already know more effectively through concepts and principles that align very nicely with WC. At my age, this is a much better use of my time than having to empy my cup and start over again learning "the true WC" of another lineage or branch.

The problem with just working out with and learning the different approaches of other lineages is the whole cult-like attitude that so many groups have. They don't believe in openly sharing, rather they jealously guard their branches "secrets". If they do work out with you, it's often only to prove that they are "right" and either convert or, at least, to humble you -- their _opposition_.

If WC is to succeed as a vital and effective fighting system we've got to get over ourselves and not be afraid to share, to learn from each other, address our weaknesses, and build on our strengths.


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## wckf92 (Oct 10, 2015)

geezer said:


> Same here, WCKF92.  I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up..



Agreed. Have to many years invested in WC to begin 'again'...



geezer said:


> I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn _his_ American variation of the _German_ variation of _LT's Hong Kong variation_ of Yip Man's lineage of WCK.  That's more than enough for me!



Ha...sounds exhausting! I've crossed hands with practitioners from Moy Yat, Leung Sheung, Leung Ting, Ho Kam Ming lineages; and some miscellaneous WC'ers over the years. All quite different from each other.  



geezer said:


> On the other hand, I also work with the DTE guys who don't exactly teach Wing Chun, ...in fact they don't exactly teach techniques at all. They mostly just teach me how to apply what I already know more effectively through concepts and principles that align very nicely with WC. At my age, this is a much better use of my time than having to empy my cup and start over again learning "the true WC" of another lineage or branch.



Nice. Yeah I've compared/contrasted hands with Inayan Escrima and Pekiti Tersia. Overall they left a good impression. VERY skillful dudes! But I'll take the directness of WC over that any day.



geezer said:


> The problem with just working out with and learning the different approaches of other lineages is the whole cult-like attitude that so many groups have. They don't believe in openly sharing, rather they jealously guard their branches "secrets". If they do work out with you, it's often only to prove that they are "right" and either convert or, at least, to humble you -- their _opposition_.



Yep...ego and pride...the two big culprits!



geezer said:


> If WC is to succeed as a vital and effective fighting system we've got to get over ourselves and not be afraid to share, to learn from each other, address our weaknesses, and build on our strengths.



Agreed!


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Yeah I've compared/contrasted hands with Inayan Escrima and Pekiti Tersia. Overall they left a good impression. VERY skillful dudes! But I'll take the directness of WC over that any day.



Few other systems are as _direct _as WC. The "D" in DTE stands for direct. So it's definitely got the right idea. Like the Latosa Escima that is one of its sources, is also very physical... and often more "hard style" than the WT I trained. My own "PCE" system adopted by the NVTO is also a derivative of Latosa  Escrima Concepts, but more influenced by WT/WC and is designed to transition seamlessly from weapons range and stances to WC empty hands and stances at close range. I'm _no_ master like Rene Latosa (Latosa Concepts) or Martin Torres (DTE), but I'm good at integrating things and for a died in the wool WC fanatic, I'd match what we do in PCE against any other approach. For an MMA guy, DTE would be among the tops, ...Latosa ...well he's at a whole different level. And his "concepts" are very relevant regardless of "style".


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## KPM (Oct 10, 2015)

Well....since you ask!  ;-)  I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time.  After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole.  I like learning new things, and just between you and me and the fence post....I've not been very impressed with the Ku Lo Pin Sun pole form or most of the Ip Man versions I have seen.  But I have been very impressed by that classic footage of Tang Yik that has been floating around on the internet for awhile now.  So I decided to pursue it!  Derek Rozanski got me started with the Tang Yik pole basics and suggested that I contact Sifu Michael Tang in Hong Kong.  He is the current head of the Tang Yik Weng Chun system.  I was attracted by the pole, but the more I've looked into the Empty hand methods the more I like the whole thing!  Tang Sifu has graciously accepted me as a "long-distance" student and has been helping me.  I send him video and he gives me feedback.  When I have questions we "message" back and forth with "whatsapp."  I am planning a trip to Hong Kong to train with him directly sometime at the beginning of next year.  He is very open and not secretive at all.   Again...between you and me and the fence post....he is a breath of fresh air compared to some of the things I've come across in Ku Lo Pin Sun!  ;-)


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## geezer (Oct 10, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well....since you ask!  ;-)  I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time.  After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole.



Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.


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## Argus (Oct 10, 2015)

geezer said:


> Same here, WCKF92.  I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.
> 
> I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn _his_ American variation of the _German_ variation of _LT's Hong Kong variation_ of Yip Man's lineage of WCK.  That's more than enough for me!
> 
> ...



This is perhaps the single biggest thing that bothers me about Wing Chun. To be honest, I'm more interested in discovering _my_ Wing Chun - and practicing in a way that aligns with my understanding, rather than fitting some very particular mold of another practitioner who has, himself, adopted and adapted the system.

Now, that's not to say that one should think himself knowledgeable enough to "know what's best" and pick and choose what to listen to his teacher on, as that's recipe for disaster, or at very least, you'll miss a lot which any teacher has to offer with that attitude. But, I am also the kind of person who cannot subscribe to something without understanding it, and cannot refrain from questioning an examining everything from all sides. I believe that there are objective conclusions which we can arrive at in our training, and that everyone has holes and flaws in their practice.

For example, I trained with a group from the Leung Sheung lineage while on vacation. And, the teacher was quite good, and it goes without saying, far more experienced than myself. But I couldn't agree with how they practiced fook-sau in their forms -- the teacher actually corrected my fook, moving my wrist off of the centerline, putting the fingers there instead. Yet, the elbow was still tight in, angling the arm off-center. I cannot reconcile this approach with my understanding of the centerline. And, sure enough, as I rolled with his students in practice, I found them consistently open on the high inside line. Rolling with the teacher, however, I did not discover him to be open there, and so I figure that he managed to train around this apparent defect in his form. In essence, his practice does not align with his form. Now, if I trained with him, it may be possible for him to honestly convince me to change this about my practice, but I think the chances of this are very slim. Even if I remain open-minded and change my practice, if I still then find it deficient and inconsistent with my understanding of the centerline, what am I to do? Go on to teach others this "wrong" method one day? Or change my practice? And, if I opt to change my practice, am I still able to train in that lineage?

There are things that I would change in the lineages that I've practiced as well. For example, I previously practiced Ip Ching's lineage, and my teacher taught me to shift all of my weight to the "rear" foot in Chum Kiu -- even when only shifting 45, as opposed to 90 degrees. I practiced Chum Kiu this way for a long time -- particularly the Bong / Lan-sau section. And, in chisau, I found that I was consistently getting thrown off balance when shifting with bong-sau against energy coming in -- I was shifting too much weight in relation to how much I was angling off. So, I changed my practice such that I shift smoothly, and with a proportional amount of weight to my rear leg in relation to the amount off center that I turn - if I am square, in YJKYM, my weight is 50/50. If I am faced 45 degrees to the right, my weight is more 66/33, and if I am turned 90 degrees, it's most, or all weight on the rear leg. That way I don't over commit my balance when shifting by a small amount. And, after practicing that way, I no longer threw myself off-balance. Of course, the next time I would see my Sifu, he would correct me, and I would practice it his way in front of him. Was I being humble, or dishonest in doing so? Or, would it be dishonest to not change my practice to suit my understanding? As much as I tried the shifting 100/0 thing with bong-sau, I found that habit to be deficient and directly impact my performance in chisau. Perhaps I'm not able to separate in habit what I do in my forms versus what I do in application (though I don't think this is desirable), or perhaps this kind of deficiency is more evident for me personally as I'm very light weight and usually training with people who are half again or twice my weight. But in any case, while I tried to remain open-minded, I found that ultimately, I couldn't practice this way in accordance with my own experience and understanding.

The thing is, I'm not interested in learning to copy someone else's Wing Chun. I'm interested in expanding and refining my own understanding of Wing Chun. While I don't believe in adopting an incoherent mish-mash by picking and choosing what you like and dislike, I do believe that broad experience and exposure to different methods allows one to take a more examined look at their practice and understanding. And, ultimately, if I'm just going through the motions and doing things simply because I was told to do them, then I don't understand them to begin with -- it's only by discovering for myself their significance that they are worthwhile and productive. The worst thing that I can do is to start rationalizing why I do something, and making up reasons in the absence of understanding.

Anyway, sorry -- that's a bit of a long rant, and one that I'm sure is worthy of criticism 

As for the OP's original question, though; if I had to choose one other lineage that I'd like to study, I'd have to pick the WSL lineage under David Peterson, or someone similar. I'm very impressed with the Wong Shun Leung lineage in general, and there's not much that I can find to criticize in their forms!


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## Argus (Oct 10, 2015)

KPM said:


> Well....since you ask!  ;-)  I've been very interested in the Pole method of Master Tang Yik for a long time.  After all, he and his father before him were both widely known in Weng Chun and Wing Chun circles as the "King" of the Long Pole.  I like learning new things, and just between you and me and the fence post....I've not been very impressed with the Ku Lo Pin Sun pole form or most of the Ip Man versions I have seen.  But I have been very impressed by that classic footage of Tang Yik that has been floating around on the internet for awhile now.  So I decided to pursue it!  Derek Rozanski got me started with the Tang Yik pole basics and suggested that I contact Sifu Michael Tang in Hong Kong.  He is the current head of the Tang Yik Weng Chun system.  I was attracted by the pole, but the more I've looked into the Empty hand methods the more I like the whole thing!  Tang Sifu has graciously accepted me as a "long-distance" student and has been helping me.  I send him video and he gives me feedback.  When I have questions we "message" back and forth with "whatsapp."  I am planning a trip to Hong Kong to train with him directly sometime at the beginning of next year.  He is very open and not secretive at all.   Again...between you and me and the fence post....he is a breath of fresh air compared to some of the things I've come across in Ku Lo Pin Sun!  ;-)



I'm also quite interested in the Tang Yik pole form!  I have to say, I'm very impressed that you managed to track down that teacher and pursue training under him. That's commitment!

I'm kind of curious to see what their empty hands look like. Are there any publicly available video references?


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## Argus (Oct 10, 2015)

geezer said:


> Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.



Same here!


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## KPM (Oct 11, 2015)

Here is Tang Sifu doing the 1st 4 sections out of 11 of the basic form.  It is the Weng Chun equivalent of the Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao.  It is simply called "Weng Chun Kuen"!  He is going relatively slow because he was explaining things as he went rather than just demo'ing.   I'm sure your first thought will be similar to mine..."this looks very Tai Chi like!"   Tang Sifu has also studied Wu style Tai Chi.  But when I asked him about this he said in the past Tang Yik Weng Chun was often referred to as the "Tai Chi of the South."


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## Vajramusti (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Same here, WCKF92.  I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.
> 
> I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version.
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ...


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## yak sao (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Well, Ah tell ya what... you go to HK and get that Tang Yik Pole thing down, then come back and give seminars. It just might off-set the expense of your trip. I'd be interested.



That is a fantastic idea.
I've watched that set many times on youtube. The pole set that I train certainly leaves a bit to be desired and have always wanted to learn the Tang Yik version.


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## yak sao (Oct 11, 2015)

I too would like to see the Ku Lo WC. By seeing how Leung Jan streamlined his method, I think it would help me distill down what I do.

 Otherwise, I would stick to the lineage I train in,(WT) Not because I believe it to be necessarily the best WC out there, but I like it and it has served me well.

By having two different instructors of WT, one from the German method and one from the HK method, I've found that my WT has become a blend of the two. I would like to further this...once I hit the lottery, I would like to travel around and learn from the various WT instructors, Cheng Chun Fun, Carson Lau, Alex Richter, Norbert Maday, KK. LT, Sifu Geezer, etc.
Even though we all train the same lineage, there is much individual variation and much to be learned.


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## Marnetmar (Oct 11, 2015)

Argus said:


> For example, I trained with a group from the Leung Sheung lineage while on vacation. And, the teacher was quite good, and it goes without saying, far more experienced than myself. But I couldn't agree with how they practiced fook-sau in their forms -- the teacher actually corrected my fook, moving my wrist off of the centerline, putting the fingers there instead.



That's odd. I'm a Leung Sheung guy and we don't do that. It's objectively bad structure, as in addition to opening the center up it can be collapsed very easily as well. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that group 



yak sao said:


> I too would like to see the Ku Lo WC. By seeing how Leung Jan streamlined his method, I think it would help me distill down what I do.
> 
> Otherwise, I would stick to the lineage I train in,(WT) Not because I believe it to be necessarily the best WC out there, but I like it and it has served me well.
> 
> ...



What differences have you noticed between the German and HK versions if you don't mind me asking?


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## Argus (Oct 11, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> That's odd. I'm a Leung Sheung guy and we don't do that. It's objectively bad structure, as in addition to opening the center up it can be collapsed very easily as well. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with that group



Not a bad experience! As I said, everyone has flaws in their practice. I'm sure his teacher taught him that way for whatever reason, and he's just doing what he learned. There's equally a lot of things that he did very well




KPM said:


> Here is Tang Sifu doing the 1st 4 sections out of 11 of the basic form.  It is the Weng Chun equivalent of the Wing Chun Siu Nim Tao.  It is simply called "Weng Chun Kuen"!  He is going relatively slow because he was explaining things as he went rather than just demo'ing.   I'm sure your first thought will be similar to mine..."this looks very Tai Chi like!"   Tang Sifu has also studied Wu style Tai Chi.  But when I asked him about this he said in the past Tang Yik Weng Chun was often referred to as the "Tai Chi of the South."



Very interesting. It does look a lot like Tai Chi. Is it just me, though, or are his hands off-center in that form? It does remind me in a way of forms that I've seen in Hung-gar, or Sanchin from Okinawa, in that sense - though I don't presume there to be any relation.


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## geezer (Oct 11, 2015)

Vajramusti said:


> ...The Fong guy you refer to was not with Fong sifu long enough to teach Fong's wc.


Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly _basic_ material.

In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.

I recall being several days into one of our training sessions when all the inexperienced students (including myself) had adapted to the LT method, but our former instructor was lagging behind ...and getting a lot of criticism from Leung Sifu for being unable to quickly unlearn his previous habits!

Now, at age 60, I have spent considerable time training the LT stances, steps, and so on. At this point it would be very hard for me to start over in another branch where my basics where considered "wrong".

BTW Joy, you know me well enough to know that I don't view the differences between our branches in terms of "right and wrong"! However in my experience many, perhaps even _most _WC people do view things that way. It's one of the reasons I spend more time on _this_ forum where we seem to attract a higher percentage of open minded individuals.


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## Argus (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly _basic_ material.
> 
> In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.
> 
> ...



Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?

I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted  It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.


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## wckf92 (Oct 11, 2015)

Argus said:


> Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?
> 
> I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted  It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.



Movement is movement...


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## geezer (Oct 11, 2015)

Argus said:


> Curious! Have you been able to train your Eskrima footwork such that it doesn't interfere with, or doesn't suffer from your WC footwork?
> 
> I'm having a bit of a tough time - when I practice WC more, my footwork in Eskrima becomes "corrupted," and when I spend more time practicing Eskrima, my WC footwork / stance becomes corrupted  It seems like I'm constantly reprogramming / fixing these habits. Maybe given enough time and equal practice it'll cease to be an issue, though.



I suppose it depends on the Eskrima or FMA that you do. In our PCE system we work mainly off the slightly front-weighted stance familiar to anyone training Latosa Escrima Concepts. It's similar to a JKD stance with the rear heel raised. I find that it's a very natural position to use at distance with a baston or other weapon, and it transitions very nicely to a back-weighted WC/WT stance as you close. Gotta run. PM me if you want to know more.  -- Steve


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## Argus (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> I suppose it depends on the Eskrima or FMA that you do. In our PCE system we work mainly off the slightly front-weighted stance familiar to anyone training Latosa Escrima Concepts. It's similar to a JKD stance with the rear heel raised. I find that it's a very natural position to use at distance with a baston or other weapon, and it transitions very nicely to a back-weighted WC/WT stance as you close. Gotta run. PM me if you want to know more.  -- Steve



We use the same stance in Lameco. I just have the habit of becoming back weighted in FMA, and front weighted with the heel raised in WC if I'm not careful


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## Vajramusti (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly _basic_ material.
> 
> In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.
> 
> ...


-----------------------------------------------------
understood Steve


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2015)

geezer said:


> Same here, WCKF92.  I'd like to share and learn with people, but don't really want to get into a whole new lineage from the ground up.
> 
> I began WC briefly back in '79 with an instructor in the Ho Kam Ming - Augustine Fong branch of the Yip Man lineage, and then switched to LT's WT branch. I had to unlearn all the "wrong" stuff I had previously learned in the Fong system and rebuild muscle memory aligned with the WT version. It took years. Now I train with an old kung fu brother under LT who later learned with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. Now, teaching in his association, I had to re-learn _his_ American variation of the _German_ variation of _LT's Hong Kong variation_ of Yip Man's lineage of WCK.  That's more than enough for me!
> 
> ...



Which is why I will never claim to be a wing chun stylist. I just happen to have a crapton of WC books and paraphernalia. And I fabricated a Mook Jong Dummy from a railroad tie.
And parked it next to my two makiwara.

And I don't chi sao... (no... not at all) if I call it kakekumite that means its karate... yah.. thats right.

This way I avoid the sibling rivalry.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Movement is movement...


I agree...

Learn to move without compromising structure and posture. Numbers are numbers.

In a real world test you wont care about weight distribution.  But accepting incoming energy without collapsing, and converting that incoming into outgoing forward energy.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

In response to the OP...


Hung Suen WC.. in its bamboo section of training... it has a ground fighting curiculum

Which might be a little bit like this:





Or Eddie Chong in Sacramento California.
Pan Nam Wing Chun....

Sifu Eddie is also formally trained in White Eyebrow... the result of a White Eyebrow Master getting severe internal injuries from fighting other masters.

The WE master plead for Pan Nam to teach him 5 petal plum form. He learned it and through chigung healed his body. After Eddie had completed his training in WC he met and was accepted by the white eyebrows master, because they shared Pan Nam as their Sifu.

Sifu Eddie is also an Ip Man lineage. So he gets a broader base from which to teach WC.

And if pedigree is a cause for ego stroking and pissing contests... you won't be ashamed with him as a sifu.

Plus 5 petal plum form sounds useful, if accepted as a closed door disciple... you might even learn white eyebrows.


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## Marnetmar (Oct 12, 2015)

Eddie's not one for ego-stroking or pissing contests. He's a great guy and very humble.


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## Eric_H (Oct 12, 2015)

FFS, I'd just like to finish HFY. Who has time to learn a second WC style?


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## Marnetmar (Oct 12, 2015)

Eric_H said:


> FFS, I'd just like to finish HFY. Who has time to learn a second WC style?



Next to nobody. It's a bit of a hypothetical question


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Eddie's not one for ego-stroking or pissing contests. He's a great guy and very humble.


 No. I didn't even mean to imply that.

Eddie is a great yet humble guy from everyone I have spoke with, who have met him.(yourself included). I have never read nor have I ever met anyone who says otherwise. 

I meant some folks are "credentialists". 
And if their credentials are superior (so and so was the First student of Sifu, and trained the longest, therefore..... No... my master was the last student of Sifu... and his art was most refined... fewer errors more perfected) than yours etc etc etc.

It doesn't hurt you (or anyone) to be able to say, Well yes, my teach was one of Sifu's students. He was a great teacher who produced many good students. My teacher also studied from a few other teachers and learned even more.

Sifu Eddie wount be a great choice, and there would be no shame in claiming him, in the face of someone claiming great and high lineages etc.


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## Vajramusti (Oct 12, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Anyone have some WC styles other than your own you'd like to learn if only there were an opportunity?
> 
> I'd be super stoked to learn the Yuen Kay San/Sum Nung style and possibly the Gu Lao village style. Learning the Wong Shun Leung style from someone like Phillip Bayer or David Petersen would be pretty awesome too.


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I don't mind understanding the principles of other styles, checking and testing what others do- but I would rather keep on progressing on the path that I am on.


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## Jake104 (Oct 12, 2015)

Argus said:


> This is perhaps the single biggest thing that bothers me about Wing Chun. *To be honest, I'm more interested in discovering my Wing Chun - and practicing in a way that aligns with my understanding, rather than fitting some very particular mold of another practitioner who has, himself, adopted and adapted the system*


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## Jake104 (Oct 12, 2015)

When you do this. It all becomes the same crap! It's not eskrima or this that WC. It's MMA. My Martial Art! Or in this case yours. YMA.

Steve mentioned that what I'm learning isn't WC cause it's principle or ideology based? That's what makes it WC, it's principle/ ideology based. Same crap to me. Plus my teacher is showing me some "traditional" That I did not know and we train traditional I know. So he has to be teaching me WC. Maybe it's just for me. Maybe I'm his closed door WC disciple? Maybe not? "I'll never tell".

But he's right about himself aka Steve/Geezer already having a good foundation which allows him to get it. Having a foundation is important. Steve if I in anyway insulted or offended you, you can kick me in the balls next time we see each other. By the way you didn't offend me. We're bff's. Matter fact listen to to KLOVE 91.1FM. I'm dedicating a song to our friendship tonight. Either Queens " you're my best friend" or, Jaskson 5's "I'll be there "


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## Argus (Oct 12, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> When you do this. It all becomes the same crap! It's not eskrima or this that WC. It's MMA. My Martial Art! Or in this case yours. YMA.
> 
> Steve mentioned that what I'm learning isn't WC cause it's principle or ideology based? That's what makes it WC, it's principle/ ideology based. Same crap to me. Plus my teacher is showing me some "traditional" That I did not know and we train traditional I know. So he has to be teaching me WC. Maybe it's just for me. Maybe I'm his closed door WC disciple? Maybe not? "I'll never tell".
> 
> But he's right about himself aka Steve/Geezer already having a good foundation which allows him to get it. Having a foundation is important. Steve if I in anyway insulted or offended you, you can kick me in the balls next time we see each other. By the way you didn't offend me. We're bff's. Matter fact listen to to KLOVE 91.1FM. I'm dedicating a song to our friendship tonight. Either Queens " you're my best friend" or, Jaskson 5's "I'll be there "



I'm not sure I follow.

My goal isn't to mix Eskrima and WC, or to create my own Martial Art. And, I don't really subscribe to the MMA approach. I train other arts to gain a perspective on Wing Chun, and I intend to train WC as it's own thing when I'm training WC. Hence my concern about footwork habits from Eskrima creeping in occasionally


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## JPinAZ (Oct 13, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Movement is movement...



Lol that's _far_ too simplified. In a VERY general sense yeah, but how and why we 'move' is typically driven by principle/concept of a given art. A lot of what is done in other arts is contrary to WC principle, body methods, structure, facing, economy of motion, gate/box theories, etc - and visa versa. For one example, the way one 'moves' and uses the body for power generations in Bagua is generally very different to the way we move/operate in WC.
Heck, even within the same art we see this as geezer is pointing out from his experiences in different lineages of WC!


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2015)

wckf92 said:


> Movement is movement...



If that were true, I could dance.


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## Argus (Oct 14, 2015)

geezer said:


> If that were true, I could dance.



Pssst! Just do your Biu Tze form! Noone will know the difference!


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## Jake104 (Oct 15, 2015)

Argus said:


> I'm not sure I follow.
> 
> My goal isn't to mix Eskrima and WC, or to create my own Martial Art. And, I don't really subscribe to the MMA approach. I train other arts to gain a perspective on Wing Chun, and I intend to train WC as it's own thing when I'm training WC. Hence my concern about footwork habits from Eskrima creeping in occasionally


That's not my goal either. The overlapping ideas is more of what I speak about. The commonalities interest me, not the differences. I learn Eskrima as a separate art. But personally, I think the trick is determining how does Eskrima work with my WC principles?

Well if you only see Martial arts styles in terms of a series of techniques, then yes certain styles won't jive together. But I don't. I see things now as, ideas principles and movements. That's it. So I stay within my main arts (WC) perimeters. Maybe my Eskrima is modified to work within my WC?...Now maybe my Eskrima really isn't much different than my WC? IDK?

Matter fact weapons have made me take a deeper look into my open hand WC training. Wait, does that mean I mix two separate arts? Maybe? He'llI, I don't know? I don't really care. But I do know what is what, and I can separate the two. But why would I? Unless I'm teaching one or the other. I'am not yet, I still have a lot to learn. So everybody can sleep easy tonight.

MMA ( MY Martial Art) is just me making fun of the term and showing that MMA isn't or doesn't have to alway be Muay Thia, boxing and BJJ. Or does it? I don't know and I don't care! Geez laweezs people.


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## Jake104 (Oct 15, 2015)

Just to clarify a few things. Steve aka Geezer and I have mentioned DTE on here. I hear people posting  it's this or that.. I'am currently and proudly a part of this organization. DTE isn't just a hodgepodge of MA's mixed and matched. It's a MA organization of different arts. Meaning there are certified teachers or coaches that teach the different arts. It's not just "MMA". It consist of MMA, Boxing, WC, Muay Tai, Yudansha Jui jitsu, Combatives and Eskrima. All overseen by Chief instructor Martin Torres, who is undisputedly the best Martial Artistist I have ever encountered . (No offense to any of my previous instructors) So just so we are clear now of what DTE is....I'm proud to be part of it!! Straight up!!


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## Argus (Oct 16, 2015)

Jake104 said:


> That's not my goal either. The overlapping ideas is more of what I speak about. The commonalities interest me, not the differences. I learn Eskrima as a separate art. But personally, I think the trick is determining how does Eskrima work with my WC principles?
> 
> Well if you only see Martial arts styles in terms of a series of techniques, then yes certain styles won't jive together. But I don't. I see things now as, ideas principles and movements. That's it. So I stay within my main arts (WC) perimeters. Maybe my Eskrima is modified to work within my WC?...Now maybe my Eskrima really isn't much different than my WC? IDK?
> 
> ...



Ah, I see. I think I misunderstood your post - it seems that we have the same understanding.


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## metalic (Dec 7, 2015)

Is any one here from Chicago Area and interested in Phillip Bayer's win chun?


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## Old Judoka (Dec 13, 2015)

This is sort of off topic. But, I have my daughters learning Judo and work with them at home some myself. I'm seeking a striking art for them and am considering wing chun for them. I'm intrigued that it was invented by a woman and seems like it might be well suited for my daughters. The only school within two hours of me is a school that follows Leung Ting's style. He seems to get a bad rap on martial talk, but the school and instructor seem to be well recommended. That school is an hour from me. I'm south of Chicago and I'm sure there are good instructors up there. I'd really rather not make the 2 1/2 hour trip.  Any thoughts among you Chunners?


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## Old Judoka (Dec 13, 2015)

geezer said:


> Joy, I believe what you say to be true. But I was not commenting on the quality of his instruction and certainly do not intend to disparage Master Fong's teaching. My point is simply that when you change branches, typically you have to re-learn even fairly _basic_ material.
> 
> In the case of switching from the Augustine Fong branch to the Leung Ting branch, I had to completely re-learn my stance weighting and turning. This was not too difficult for me since I was in my early 20s, still very inexperienced in WC, and I had not "hard wired" the Fong method into my muscle memory. It was, however, much more difficult for my former instructor to change, since regardless of his teaching qualifications, he had spent considerably more time training those movements.
> 
> ...



Hi Geezer,

I posted earlier about LT branch of WT. I noticed your post and am glad I can get your views on LTWT and maybe some advice. The school I referred to is an hour, 15 from me. The sifu and school seem well regarded. One of my other options is a JKD (Vunak/Inosanto lineage) school. While Bruce Lee's own JKD had WC as the foundation art, I think the V/I branch is more based on KALI hand techniques. Anyway I prefer the WC (WT in your case), because there are a lot more WC schools if they want to get fully into WC. Is it true that WT is pretty much nearly as popular as Ip Man WC? Any thoughts, suggestions you can offer will be great. Thanks.


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## geezer (Dec 13, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> Hi Geezer,
> You obviously are happy with the LT branch and I want to be sure that someone exposed to the style can help me make a good choice. My other option is a JKD (Vunak/Inosanto system) that is about 40 minutes away. I prefer the wing chun, partly because the V/I branch of JKD seems to have more KALI as a base art than wing chun. The other reason is that I'm convinced that if well groomed in WC the girls can more avoid having to use brute force against a larger assailant. I could discuss this all day, but I think you probably get my concerns and such. Any thoughts?



Actually, I _was_ taught by LT, but have not been a member of his Association for many years. My advice to you is visit the school, check out the instructor and his methods, and be sure that it's a good fit for you or your daughters. That's way more important than style or lineage to me. 

BTW, as "an old judoka" why wouldn't you consider exposing your daughters to Judo, ju-jutsu, BJJ or something of that nature? Just curious.


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## Old Judoka (Dec 14, 2015)

I am. Our local college has a club, and I'm currently working out the rust in my technique and my joints. I'm bringing my daughters with me, so they can learn and we can work together some at home.  I'm also looking for a striking system to get them involved in as well. Like I've stated in a couple of other posts on the forum, my primary goal is to get them to where if they are attacked by someone they can get that person on the ground by any means possible and run like hell. If they unfortunately have to do ground work, I'm hoping they will have enough going on to "wiggle" their way out and get the hell away. I already know they can pretty much take hits, because they are both cheerleaders and get kicked fairly regularly when performing in their stunt groups. Who knew that cheerleading was actually a martial art, LOL. As far as Lueng Ting branch, if I can find them a good instructor, I'm pretty impressed by the system. I meant no disrespect toward LT at all in any comment I have made. I've seen a few people on martial talk give him a bad rap. I'm not sure why, because I think ALL martial arts have good contributions to make.  From one Geezer to another, I hope you have a great day. Also, I don't consider consider myself an "old Judoka" in the sense that I'm some venerable master or something. I mean it in the sense that I'm a d@~n old guy who used to do some judo.


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## guy b. (Dec 14, 2015)

Old Judoka said:


> This is sort of off topic. But, I have my daughters learning Judo and work with them at home some myself. I'm seeking a striking art for them and am considering wing chun for them. I'm intrigued that it was invented by a woman and seems like it might be well suited for my daughters. The only school within two hours of me is a school that follows Leung Ting's style. He seems to get a bad rap on martial talk, but the school and instructor seem to be well recommended. That school is an hour from me. I'm south of Chicago and I'm sure there are good instructors up there. I'd really rather not make the 2 1/2 hour trip.  Any thoughts among you Chunners?



For girls go for bjj. It is about the only way they will have a reasonable chance against an average man in a life or death situation. I would avoid wing chun because average quality is so very low. If they really want to train striking then wait until they are old enough and enrol them in boxing, muay thai or mma classes. Chances are they will hate it and give up. Bjj is best bet, with judo a good combination.


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## Phobius (Dec 15, 2015)

I agree in regards to BJJ being a good bet for any girl. After all it might also provide information that will render most cases of assault against woman dangerous to the perpetrator (sp?). In regards to WC it is in my view not a system you start out with, first you learn boxing/muay thai, karate or other long range simple (not meant as way of mastering or techniques but rather in terms of understanding purpose of exercises) martial arts.

Studying WC without having understanding of long range fighting would probably still work but how do you get close to an opponent if you dont know how to move your feet and get past his fists?


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## geezer (Dec 15, 2015)

Phobius said:


> Studying WC without having understanding of long range fighting would probably still work but how do you get close to an opponent if you dont know how to move your feet and get past his fists?



If you are learning for _self defense_, then the aggressor will often close the gap for you!


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## Old Judoka (Dec 15, 2015)

geezer said:


> If you are learning for _self defense_, then the aggressor will often close the gap for you!



Point well made, Geezer! I think that probably an aggressor intent on hurting a woman may get right in her face try to  intimidate as well as physically harm her. Wing Tsun would be perfect in this situation. Some strikes, ouchi-gari to put him on the ground, she's running away. This is what I've been talking about


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