# My thoughts on FTF (Functional TKD Federation)



## FlamingJulian (Sep 15, 2016)

I know that some of you are going to get mad but I actually like the idea. I don't know that much about Taylor Kelley and his experience but it seems legitimate. He really wants to change the game and make TKD better than ever. I'm sure a lot of u guys are more experienced than me and know more arts but to me it seems legit. Any thoughts?


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## Gnarlie (Sep 15, 2016)

Pfft. I would strongly recommend actually training an art to a reasonable level before criticising it, the people who practice it, or any other art. That's all. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2016)

FlamingJulian said:


> I know that some of you are going to get mad but I actually like the idea. I don't know that much about Taylor Kelley and his experience but it seems legitimate. He really wants to change the game and make TKD better than ever. I'm sure a lot of u guys are more experienced than me and know more arts but to me it seems legit. Any thoughts?


  Here are my thoughts.  The only reason Taylor Kelley thinks that TKD techniques aren't functional is because he doesn't have a deeper understanding of TKD techniques and how to correctly apply them. He sees a technique in TKD, doesn't understand it, and because of that he thinks there is a "hole" or "gap" in the system.  

The fact that people from other martial arts systems can see functional techniques in TKD and can tell you how it works and how to apply it, but Taylor Kelley cannot see what they see or even understand it, should be a big red flag for anyone trying to support his idea of "Functional TKD"  This guys seems to have no problem in understanding his TKD techniques.  This is what it looks like when someone digs deeper into their fighting system.





This is what Taylor Kelley look like.  What you see him use in light sparring is the limit of what he understands.  I don't care what he claims as martial arts experience because this video shows the truth in his understanding of TKD techniques or any other martial art technique he claims to know.





I know without a doubt that some of those techniques in that first video are valid and can be used in a real fight with no problem.  I also recognize that some of those same techniques are found in Kung Fu systems and Japanese martial art systems.  I have yet to see him demonstrate any significant fighting or self defense ability beyond his free sparring video. He has never made a video explaining the application of a technique.

Many people hate on Forms as well and then use Muay Thai as an example of learning without form.
Well here's traditional Muay Thai Form.  The same art that he champions uses the forms that he so much hates.





The main problem is that he insults everyone and is highly disrespectful of others. Then when someone criticizes his approach with the FTF idea, that person suddenly becomes a hater. Yet he's the one with hundreds of videos bashing other martial art systems.  In addition to that he then tells people "How to deal with a stubborn Korean Master" and the solutions that he gives aren't only disrespectful but they are backstabbing in nature.   This is the type of person that would head the FTF.  He is the person who will set the tone and morals for the organization and it's behavior.  People who will join his project will be people who make the same assumptions and see nothing wrong with the way that he insults others.


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## FlamingJulian (Sep 15, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Here are my thoughts.  The only reason Taylor Kelley thinks that TKD techniques aren't functional is because he doesn't have a deeper understanding of TKD techniques and how to correctly apply them. He sees a technique in TKD, doesn't understand it, and because of that he thinks there is a "hole" or "gap" in the system.
> 
> The fact that people from other martial arts systems can see functional techniques in TKD and can tell you how it works and how to apply it, but Taylor Kelley cannot see what they see or even understand it, should be a big red flag for anyone trying to support his idea of "Functional TKD"  This guys seems to have no problem in understanding his TKD techniques.  This is what it looks like when someone digs deeper into their fighting system.
> 
> ...



Ummmm. After seeing him spar I think I'll stick with WTF because I can make connections 


-Julian


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 15, 2016)

Gnarlie said:


> Pfft. I would strongly recommend actually training an art to a reasonable level before criticising it, the people who practice it, or any other art. That's all.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Totally agree with it.  The ironic thing about FTF is that if he's teaching it, then it's heading in the same direction of a McDojo where the instructor claims he has an understanding of techniques, fighting, and self defense, but gets it all wrong because he doesn't have a deeper understanding  of the technique and it's applications.  The sad part about it is that he has insulted so many people and so many martial art systems, that no one in their right mind with valuable knowledge will want to be associated with him. Those same people with decades of knowledge also will be less willing to share their knowledge.  

I wonder if he's learning BJJ and Muay Thai from a knowledgeable instructor or if he's learn from a friend.  Most martial arts teachers that I know of wouldn't accept him as a student with all of those videos of him bashing other systems like that.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 15, 2016)

Taylor loves to talk about his "15 years of experience" but rarely mentions that most of that experience was gained as a child.  He started when he was 5 and is 21 now.  He says in one of his videos "If you're under 18 and you're wearing a black belt, it's fake- you're a fake black belt." (Actually his side-kick said it, but he sat there nodding his head).  Now, I know many here will agree with that, but my point is Taylor will not say how old he was when he got his own black belt.  However, some of his tutorial videos were posted when he was 20, and he was a 4th Dan.  Simple math will tell you that , by his own standard, he is a fake.


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## geezer (Sep 15, 2016)

Hey ...I've seen those guys on youtube. I'd love to add a meaningful critique, but I don't know if the plural of _doofus_ is _doofuses_ ...._or doofi_, so I'll shut up now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

FlamingJulian said:


> I know that some of you are going to get mad but I actually like the idea. I don't know that much about Taylor Kelley and his experience but it seems legitimate. He really wants to change the game and make TKD better than ever. I'm sure a lot of u guys are more experienced than me and know more arts but to me it seems legit. Any thoughts?


I don't have a problem with the concept. Taylor, however, doesn't have (IMO) a deep enough understanding of TKD to build off it. He has a total of 15 years of training, but that means he started training at around age 6. So at least the first 10 years don't build a lot of depth for understanding mechanics. So he has maybe 5 years of any depth, and that's just not much to use as a jumping-off point. I think he may have bought into the public mystique around what a black belt means, and believes he understands more than he does. By comparison, I have been involved with NGA since I was 18 (nearly 30 years) and had some relevant background before that. When I started building the curriculum for Shojin-ryu (more than 20 years in the art at that point), I still reached out to other folks within the art to check concepts (and still do). I have a slightly different focus than the mainline of the art, but I still know there's stuff more experienced instructors in the art can help me out in understanding. Taylor seems to feel like he has the answers already, when he is probably just about ready to start asking the right questions.

I think the Dunning–Kruger effect is in evidence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Totally agree with it.  The ironic thing about FTF is that if he's teaching it, then it's heading in the same direction of a McDojo where the instructor claims he has an understanding of techniques, fighting, and self defense, but gets it all wrong because he doesn't have a deeper understanding  of the technique and it's applications.  The sad part about it is that he has insulted so many people and so many martial art systems, that no one in their right mind with valuable knowledge will want to be associated with him. Those same people with decades of knowledge also will be less willing to share their knowledge.
> 
> I wonder if he's learning BJJ and Muay Thai from a knowledgeable instructor or if he's learn from a friend.  Most martial arts teachers that I know of wouldn't accept him as a student with all of those videos of him bashing other systems like that.


The maddening part to me is that he (if we accept the number as accurate) has a bunch of students. I'd love to help some of those folks...


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

Rough Rider said:


> Taylor loves to talk about his "15 years of experience" but rarely mentions that most of that experience was gained as a child.  He started when he was 5 and is 21 now.  He says in one of his videos "If you're under 18 and you're wearing a black belt, it's fake- you're a fake black belt." (Actually his side-kick said it, but he sat there nodding his head).  Now, I know many here will agree with that, but my point is Taylor will not say how old he was when he got his own black belt.  However, some of his tutorial videos were posted when he was 20, and he was a 4th Dan.  Simple math will tell you that , by his own standard, he is a fake.


Well, by his own numbers, he taught for a few years at his old school, so he had to be teaching there when he was in his mid-teens. And we can assume (not necessarily accurately, but close enough) he took at least a year to get each dan grade, so he couldn't have had his shodan any later than 16.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2016)

A kid with some superficial experience


gpseymour said:


> Well, by his own numbers, he taught for a few years at his old school, so he had to be teaching there when he was in his mid-teens. And we can assume (not necessarily accurately, but close enough) he took at least a year to get each dan grade, so he couldn't have had his shodan any later than 16.



The KKW standard (and it's telling that he doesn't know the difference between KKW, ITF and WTF) would require 6 years to go from 1st to 4th. One year 1st to 2nd, two years 2nd to 3rd, and three years 3rd to 4th.


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## FlamingJulian (Sep 16, 2016)

Rough Rider said:


> Taylor loves to talk about his "15 years of experience" but rarely mentions that most of that experience was gained as a child.  He started when he was 5 and is 21 now.  He says in one of his videos "If you're under 18 and you're wearing a black belt, it's fake- you're a fake black belt." (Actually his side-kick said it, but he sat there nodding his head).  Now, I know many here will agree with that, but my point is Taylor will not say how old he was when he got his own black belt.  However, some of his tutorial videos were posted when he was 20, and he was a 4th Dan.  Simple math will tell you that , by his own standard, he is a fake.



After watching lots of his videos I'm starting to dislike him. I'm not saying I have anything against him.  


-Julian


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2016)

FlamingJulian said:


> After watching lots of his videos I'm starting to dislike him. I'm not saying I have anything against him.
> 
> 
> -Julian


Well at least you understand better why he rubs so many the wrong way and why people respond the way we do.  The stuff that he tries to pass off on us is the sales pitch that he's going to give to people who aren't familiar with martial arts (parents), people who think like him, and people who haven't seen his videos.

The sad part is that he tried to do his sales pitch in a forum full of martial artist who have more years  of martial art experience than he has days of living.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> The maddening part to me is that he (if we accept the number as accurate) has a bunch of students. I'd love to help some of those folks...


Maybe we should ask him to show a picture of his class in session on a good day.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Maybe we should ask him to show a picture of his class in session on a good day.


Maybe not. If he actually has a bunch of students, it'll just depress me.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 16, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Maybe not. If he actually has a bunch of students, it'll just depress me.


lol. If he has a lot of students then they will be kids.  The formula for getting kids is easy, but it may not fit well with how you see and view your martial arts system.  Turn your school into an after school facility where kids have fun, learn respect and build confidence.  Do fun kid things and provide tutoring.  Have summer camps, and field trips.  Do all of that and you'll have a lot of kids.  The downside is that very few kids will have the passion for martial arts, because the marketing that you'll use is the same marketing that target kids who have a real passion for martial arts or kids who want to learn how to protect themselves.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

FlamingJulian said:


> Ummmm. After seeing him spar I think I'll stick with WTF because I can make connections
> 
> 
> -Julian



That should tell you everything, the dude is a hypocrite and is in generally terrible at what he champions. I said my piece in the previous thread about this. Never let some fool tell you what you should and shouldn't learn, be your own judge when it comes to martial arts no matter the arts you are learning. 

I myself for example do not really like TKD but I will never badmouth it, the reason for this is because I have no experience in it, I cannot have a valid opinion of something that I have no experience in. From what I can tell Taylor learned TKD that is tailored for light contact competition sparring and kata competitions, then expects to actually know how to brawl against arts designed to actually go balls to the wall. He failed several times and instead of blaming himself he blames his art.

If his art is so bad how could he have won all those competitions as he claims he did? He learned sport TKD so no **** he is going to get beat up going into other styles that have little to no rules because he was not prepared for that. The same thing would happen to me if I were to go into a boxing competition, I would do terrible because there I cannot grapple and cannot kick, cannot elbow ect. If I were to blame my failure on Shou Shu and kenpo karate how much of a fool would I look like? 

TKD does not need a savior as he claims he does, and he is by no means anyone that should be teaching anyone anything other than how to get hit in the head.


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2016)

Martialtalk is becoming Bullshido  Nothing wrong with that. Just sayin.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> lol. If he has a lot of students then they will be kids.  The formula for getting kids is easy, but it may not fit well with how you see and view your martial arts system.  Turn your school into an after school facility where kids have fun, learn respect and build confidence.  Do fun kid things and provide tutoring.  Have summer camps, and field trips.  Do all of that and you'll have a lot of kids.  The downside is that very few kids will have the passion for martial arts, because the marketing that you'll use is the same marketing that target kids who have a real passion for martial arts or kids who want to learn how to protect themselves.



Another problem with that is many other outlets provide those same exact things, because of this there will be tons of competition for that business. His feasibility is already abysmal as it is lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 26, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Another problem with that is many other outlets provide those same exact things, because of this there will be tons of competition for that business. His feasibility is already abysmal as it is lol.


Yep.  That's why he'll have more kids than adults.  Adults will pick up on the game really easily, unless they are just totally new and have now clue about what Martial Arts.  The only people who I can think that are totally clueless about martial arts are kids and their parents.  But if someone is serious about learning how to fight, will look at what he does and then think.  "I can teach my self this stuff"  or they'll just go to a martial arts school or club to learn martial arts.

My guess is that someone who takes a fitness kickboxing class wouldn't be impressed.  With the current FTF combinations that he has on his site.  Not to be funny but, people who do those high intensity kick boxing classes could probably wear him down with no problem.  They have the agility to avoid stuff that he throws.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

Not only that but everything he does is telegraphed to all hell, and TaeBo is the tits.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 26, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> Totally agree with it.  The ironic thing about FTF is that if he's teaching it, then it's heading in the same direction of a McDojo where the instructor claims he has an understanding of techniques, fighting, and self defense, but gets it all wrong because he doesn't have a deeper understanding  of the technique and it's applications.  The sad part about it is that he has insulted so many people and so many martial art systems, that no one in their right mind with valuable knowledge will want to be associated with him. Those same people with decades of knowledge also will be less willing to share their knowledge.
> 
> I wonder if he's learning BJJ and Muay Thai from a knowledgeable instructor or if he's learn from a friend.  Most martial arts teachers that I know of wouldn't accept him as a student with all of those videos of him bashing other systems like that.



He claims to compete in NAGA which is a pure grappling competition,yet has no record of it, He claims to have done wrestling and has no record of it, he claims a lot and has no record of any of it.


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## KangTsai (Sep 26, 2016)

The duo has zero credibility as it is.


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## Balrog (Sep 28, 2016)

Tames D said:


> Martialtalk is becoming Bullshido  Nothing wrong with that. Just sayin.


Harsh, bro - harsh.


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## Ironbear24 (Sep 28, 2016)

geezer said:


> Hey ...I've seen those guys on youtube. I'd love to add a meaningful critique, but I don't know if the plural of _doofus_ is _doofuses_ ...._or doofi_, so I'll shut up now.



I just call them beavis and butthead lol.


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## Tames D (Sep 28, 2016)

Balrog said:


> Harsh, bro - harsh.


Perhaps


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## Mattattack (Nov 1, 2016)

I joined Martial Talk JUST so I could comment on this, in large part because Taylor Kelly isn't replying to my questions on his YouTube Channel.  Mr. Kelley's approach has bugged me for several days since I discovered his channel.

  My foundation is in a form of Kenpo Karate that also teaches some boxing and Gracie Jujitsu, so I'm fine with taking a traditional art like Karate or TKD and making it more eclectic to meet modern needs.  My issue is in his approach, which has been bugging me since I discovered his channel.  Here are some of my issues (which may repeat what some have said here earlier):

*1) He seems to be trying to raise himself up by putting others down:*  Charlatans are a part of life, and in the Martial Arts they hide behind fancy titles, tall tales of prowess, and chi magic.  We all know that (or should).  My issue is not with calling out Bullshido, but that Mr. Kelley is leaning on it so heavily that he seems to spend more time talking about what his style ISN'T than giving demonstrations of what it IS.  The majority of his recent YouTube Posts seem to be reaction videos where he tells you why this or that style is crap.  He doesn't seem to realize that going negative all the time will not elevate him. 

*2) His criterion for what makes a bad martial art are ambiguous at times:  *My first encounter with Mr. Kelley's channel was the two versions of his "10 Worst Martial Arts List."  Mr. Kelley and his co-commentator feel Karate makes that list because_ he says it doesn't teach shots to the head._  I found that incredible, as in lacking in credibility.  Does he really believe that?  If so, then I have a few chipped teeth from my early days in a self-defense oriented Karate school that are evidence to the contrary!  Is the extend of his exposure to Karate watching competitions on YouTube?

This is symptomatic of a larger problem of making false analogies in his videos.  In one of his comments he said that many martial arts are not legitimate _fighting _styles when compared to combat _sport_.  To phrase this another way: sport fighting systems that uses equalizing factors like weight classes and no-foul rules are more legitimate fighting styles than the martial arts from which they sprang. I'm not here to quibble about which martial art is better or worse. My problem is that this general line of thinking is a false analogy (an apples to oranges comparison), since civilian self-defense (which seems to be what he is trying to offer) is not the same as combat sports like MMA.  MMA can produce strong fighters in and out of the ring, no doubt, but Mr. Kelley does not seem to be self-reflexive when it comes to his reasoning behind why other styles suck and his rules.

*3) He praises MMA to high heaven, but he identifies as a TKD teacher. *Mr. Kelley sings the praises of MMA, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing, but he isn't aiming to teach MMA. Why?  In an article on his website, Mr. Kelley describes his Functional Taekwondo Federation as offering a lighter version of MMA offering a wider range of kicks but a lower chance of serious injury.  Fair enough, but why continue to call what he does Functional TKD?  Why not just call it the Kelley System of MMA or whatever?  One possibility is that he wants to promote a sea shift in TKD from being largely sports-oriented to being a complete system of self defense.  That may be true, but I suspect a deeper reason is that he has less credibility as an MMA person than as a TKD person.

I wondered if he elaborated on all of these things in his book, but I didn't want to subscribe to his mailing list to read it.

I've you've read this far, thank you.  I needed to expunge this negativity from my brain.

It's late, I'm tired, and I could say so much more, but I'm done right now.  I welcome comments and feedback.

I will finish by saying I don't have any personal animus towards Mr. Kelley, but rather I dislike the approach he is taking because we see it too often.  The rhetoric he is using isn't healthy.  If he's not careful, he could turn his FTF into the exact thing he is railing against now.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 1, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> *3) He praises MMA to high heaven, but he identifies as a TKD teacher. *Mr. Kelley sings the praises of MMA, Muay Thai, Wrestling, and Boxing, but he isn't aiming to teach MMA. Why


I think this may be because he holds rank in TKD and wants to retain that air of authority. Unfortunately he can't have it both ways. If he no longer respects TKD or the rank he earned in that system, that's cool. He can leave that art and that rank behind. If he loves MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc, that's great! He can be a student of those arts and maybe become an instructor one day if he earns the requisite qualifications. What doesn't work so well is wanting to stay in the position of being an instructor and an expert authority figure based on the rank he says is worthless in an art he now denigrates while basing his new system on arts which he isn't expert in and has no particular qualifications in.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think this may be because he holds rank in TKD and wants to retain that air of authority. Unfortunately he can't have it both ways. If he no longer respects TKD or the rank he earned in that system, that's cool. He can leave that art and that rank behind. If he loves MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc, that's great! He can be a student of those arts and maybe become an instructor one day if he earns the requisite qualifications. What doesn't work so well is wanting to stay in the position of being an instructor and an expert authority figure based on the rank he says is worthless in an art he now denigrates while basing his new system on arts which he isn't expert in and has no particular qualifications in.



Actually, he CLAIMS a KKW 4th Dan, but another member looked him up, and the KKW only shows him as being a 2nd Poom. So what he's actually bashing is, apparently, not even a real rank.


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## Mattattack (Nov 1, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think this may be because he holds rank in TKD and wants to retain that air of authority. Unfortunately he can't have it both ways. If he no longer respects TKD or the rank he earned in that system, that's cool. He can leave that art and that rank behind. If he loves MMA, BJJ, Muay Thai, etc, that's great! He can be a student of those arts and maybe become an instructor one day if he earns the requisite qualifications. What doesn't work so well is wanting to stay in the position of being an instructor and an expert authority figure based on the rank he says is worthless in an art he now denigrates while basing his new system on arts which he isn't expert in and has no particular qualifications in.



Yeah, this feels like the case.  How much TKD cam he excise from his system and still call it TKD?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 1, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> Yeah, this feels like the case.  How much TKD cam he excise from his system and still call it TKD?


Yep.  I'm waiting to see him cross that Bridge


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## Rough Rider (Nov 4, 2016)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Unfortunately he can't have it both ways.


He's defiantly trying to do this.  He loves to talk about his "15 years of experience" to make himself seem legitimate, while at the same time slamming "kid black belts".  Taylor is 21 years old.  He started training at age 5 (so I guess it's 16 years now).  He got his black belt at age 10. 
Now he could say "I was a victim of the same McDojo system that I'm now speaking against" and I would be fine with that, but if you turn around and claim "15 years experience" to legitimize yourself, when most of that time was done as a young child, that's trying to have your cake and eat it too.


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## Mattattack (Nov 4, 2016)

Age can be deceptive when it comes to experience. In many traditional styles starting anytime after age 5 is a "late start."  Bruce lee popularized a revolution in thinking about martial arts before he died at age 32.

I'm not disagreeing with you though.  You are right, he is trying to have his cake and toss-it-out-the-window-so-no-one-else-can-have-it too.

It's too much sleight of hand to lean on his experience but also discount it at the same time...or maybe he is saying his experience is valid but no one else's within the same discipline is.

The problem with him is more in how he presents himself than in where he is coming from training-wise.


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## lklawson (Nov 4, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> Yeah, this feels like the case.  How much TKD cam he excise from his system and still call it TKD?


Considering the facts that TKD is a modern art, younger than my grandmother, an amalgam of mostly Shotokan and maybe a little other stuff, and the fact that the literal translation of Tae Kwon Do is "the way of punching and kicking," together with the current social understanding in the west that TKD is "basically Korean Karate," I'd say the answer to your question is, "He can excise pretty much all of what most experienced people think of as Tae Kwon Do and still call it Tae Kwon Do."

The Koreans might get pissed off but what can they do about it?

Names, like ranks, mean very little, usually.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Mattattack (Nov 4, 2016)

I've left comments on some of his videos and, now, messaged him directly to get an answer on some of his dubious claims.  Why do I obsess over getting a response from this guy?

It's not that Mr. Kelley offends me personally: if you train a martial art and you are on the internet, you *will* find someone dumping on it somewhere, guaranteed.  I accept that in the way I accept that summers are hot and winters are cold.  It can be uncomfortable at times, but you can't stop it unless <insert climate change joke here>

Maybe my 2016 Election anxiety is fueling a desire to get a straight no-bs answer from someone and I've latched on to this guy.

It's likely in part because I'm a college writing teacher, so I work hard to teach my students how to build logical arguments based on clear evidence and without fallacies of thinking.  Mr. Kelley's approach agitates that part of me and makes me wish I could take Ye-Olde-Red-Pen-O'-Doom and grade his argument the way I grade my writing student's arguments.

Anyway, I've been trying to call him out on something he and his colleague have said that is just plain wrong.  Not "different point of view" wrong or "in my experience wrong," but verifiably incorrect.  Here is what I wrote to him via his channel on YouTube




> Hello!
> 
> I am hoping to get some clarification on an point you make in one of your videos and in the comments to another one of your videos.
> 
> ...



And now we play the waiting game...although realistically I don't expect a reasonable answer (or an answer at all), which in and of itself is a _kind_ of answer.

I obsess over strange things when I'm stressed.


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## lklawson (Nov 4, 2016)

Rough Rider said:


> He's defiantly trying to do this.  He loves to talk about his "15 years of experience" to make himself seem legitimate, while at the same time slamming "kid black belts".  Taylor is 21 years old.  He started training at age 5 (so I guess it's 16 years now).  He got his black belt at age 10.
> Now he could say "I was a victim of the same McDojo system that I'm now speaking against" and I would be fine with that, but if you turn around and claim "15 years experience" to legitimize yourself, when most of that time was done as a young child, that's trying to have your cake and eat it too.


The problem is that there is no one, single, definition of what "black belt" means.  To some it means an expert in the system.  To some it means an expert in fighting.  To some it means a demonstrated minimum competency with a certain set of techniques.  None of these things are mutually exclusive but none of them are mutually inclusive either.

"Black belts" mean *NOTHING* outside of that given, specific, system and may or may not have anything to do with being able to "fight" (which also has a myriad of different definitions).  

The biggest problem is that everyone thinks that "black belt" means something but, definitionally, no one can agree on what it actually represents, when in reality, it means nothing outside of that some one met some sort of standard to some system.

Just because you graduated with a Mechanical Engineering degree doesn't mean you're any good at Electrical Engineering, never mind Social Engineering.  

Belts, ranks, and certifications are largely irrelevant to me.  Show me what you know and *I'll decide* if it's relevant to what I want to do.  Given that, I find these sort of intra-martial art "debates" about how "good" a black belt is, whether or not he's complaining about the legitimacy of other black belts, etc., to be kinda amusing.  My "Expert" certification in Bowie Knife earns me jack-crap in a BJJ school and I've met plenty of pre-18 yo kids who are really skilled in their respective martial pursuits. It's all BS.

There's a ton more to this rant, but I think you get the picture.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Nov 4, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> I've left comments on some of his videos and, now, messaged him directly to get an answer on some of his dubious claims.  Why do I obsess over getting a response from this guy?
> 
> It's not that Mr. Kelley offends me personally: if you train a martial art and you are on the internet, you *will* find someone dumping on it somewhere, guaranteed.  I accept that in the way I accept that summers are hot and winters are cold.  It can be uncomfortable at times, but you can't stop it unless <insert climate change joke here>
> 
> ...


By even acknowledging him, you're just feeding his ego.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 4, 2016)

lklawson said:


> By even acknowledging him, you're just feeding his ego.



Yeah I know.  Need to get it out of my system.


----------



## frank raud (Nov 4, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> Age can be deceptive when it comes to experience. In many traditional styles starting anytime after age 5 is a "late start."  Bruce lee popularized a revolution in thinking about martial arts before he died at age 32.



Which traditional arts considering starting after 5 a late start?


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 4, 2016)

I overstated.  I was thinking of my Tai Chi teacher and others like him from traditional background with practitioners as parents and begin very, very young.


----------



## msmitht (Nov 4, 2016)

I've got a 16 year old black belt that would knock him out cold. got a 14 year old orange belt in bjj that would choke him out. what a Dbag .  waste of time watching his videos.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 4, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Actually, he CLAIMS a KKW 4th Dan, but another member looked him up, and the KKW only shows him as being a 2nd Poom. So what he's actually bashing is, apparently, not even a real rank.



I am not that familiar with Tae Kwon do terminology. What are geup and poom?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2016)

lklawson said:


> Considering the facts that TKD is a modern art, younger than my grandmother, an amalgam of mostly Shotokan and maybe a little other stuff, and the fact that the literal translation of Tae Kwon Do is "the way of punching and kicking," together with the current social understanding in the west that TKD is "basically Korean Karate," I'd say the answer to your question is, "He can excise pretty much all of what most experienced people think of as Tae Kwon Do and still call it Tae Kwon Do."
> 
> The Koreans might get pissed off but what can they do about it?
> 
> ...


That's a big hill to climb taking into account that TKD is well established. It may be young but it's everywhere.  I'm assuming that TKD organizations have their own black list.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> I am not that familiar with Tae Kwon do terminology. What are geup and poom?



Geup = Kyu = Colored belt ranks.
Poom =  The KKW term for a baby black belt. They wear a red & black belt to differentiate them from Dan holders.


----------



## Kickboxer101 (Nov 4, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> I've left comments on some of his videos and, now, messaged him directly to get an answer on some of his dubious claims.  Why do I obsess over getting a response from this guy?
> 
> It's not that Mr. Kelley offends me personally: if you train a martial art and you are on the internet, you *will* find someone dumping on it somewhere, guaranteed.  I accept that in the way I accept that summers are hot and winters are cold.  It can be uncomfortable at times, but you can't stop it unless <insert climate change joke here>
> 
> ...



I've said this before to ironbear over this guy. Who cares let him have his little delusions if he's garbage then any real martial artist will know he's garbage at the end of the day he's only cheating himself because he'll get caught out one day so let him do his own thing it's not bothering you or hurting you so who cares


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 4, 2016)

I should do that. I know. I'm working it out of my system.  

Its not that he has a completely invalid point about bullshido.  Its that he is so caught up in being a rebel and speaking truth to power that he doesn't realize he is becoming an *** and closer to what he rails against (my method is best all else is bad).

Also this


----------



## Ironbear24 (Nov 4, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Geup = Kyu = Colored belt ranks.
> Poom =  The KKW term for a baby black belt. They wear a red & black belt to differentiate them from Dan holders.



Ah ok so this dude is basically a jr black belt.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2016)

Ironbear24 said:


> Ah ok so this dude is basically a jr black belt.



Well, that's the highest rank the KKW shows for him. He could have a 37th Dan Great Imperial GrandMaster High PooBaa in-house rank for all anybody knows. And if he has that AND a Build-A-Bear Ninja, then all other arguments are invalid.


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 5, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> He could have a 37th Dan Great Imperial GrandMaster High PooBaa in-house rank for all anybody knows.



Hey! That is Chuck Norris' rank, and we all know it is not wise to mock him...


----------



## Dirty Dog (Nov 5, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> Hey! That is Chuck Norris' rank, and we all know it is not wise to mock him...



Chuck Norris' rank is Chuck Norris.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 5, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Chuck Norris' rank is Chuck Norris.


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 5, 2016)

Chuck Norris keeps anihilating his phones when they try to autocorrect his texts.  No one corrects Chuck Norris.  He corrects phones, not the other way around.

Anyway, no reply from the messages I sent Kelley pointing out his factual errors.  Not that I expected one.  I think I've finally passed my obsession with getting this guy to admit his bs (not unlike passing a bad turd).

80% of his videos so far are him and his buddy sitting in front of the camera dumping on other martial arts and talking about what they will do as opposed to SHOWING people what they will do.  19th Century British Prime Minister Benjamin Disreili once said "It is easier to be critical than correct."  Quite appropriate here.

One of their videos starts with his co-commentator saying, "Get your master's c$#&k out of your mouth."  There's just no reasoning with that, no room for intelligent debate.

He wants to make a new Federation to compete with the major TKD Federation.  Well, a Federation implies a union of like-minded individuals, and I don't see him having that many given his attitude.  Vitriol gets YouTube hits but it tends to exhaust people after a while, so good luck to him in terms of getting long-term students while leaning on that.

"A Federation of One."  There I just titled his memoirs where he autopsies his shortcomings.

Ok, one more Chuck Norris Joke: Know why Rottentomatoes has no reviews for Chuck Norris 3D?  No audience survives the show.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 7, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's a big hill to climb taking into account that TKD is well established. It may be young but it's everywhere.  I'm assuming that TKD organizations have their own black list.


There's a reason that individual TKD organizations have trademarked their full names but not just Tae Kwon Do.

I'd also point out that it's happened with other Korean martial arts.  "Combat Hapkido" is still a thing, even though it pisses off traditional HKD folks and makes BJJ folks giggle.

Again, even if TKD organizations have their own "black lists," what are they going to do about it?  Pout and talk bad about the dude?  Everyone is already doing that.  <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## msmitht (Nov 7, 2016)

lklawson said:


> There's a reason that individual TKD organizations have trademarked their full names but not just Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> I'd also point out that it's happened with other Korean martial arts.  "Combat Hapkido" is still a thing, even though it pisses off traditional HKD folks and makes BJJ folks giggle.
> 
> ...


Combat hapkido . ..lol...rotflol. thank you. needed a good laugh this morning.


----------



## lklawson (Nov 7, 2016)

msmitht said:


> Combat hapkido . ..lol...rotflol. thank you. needed a good laugh this morning.


Yup.  Exactly what I mean.  We both can laugh at it, but we can't make it go away; certainly not based on "it doesn't look like any other Hapkido."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2016)

lklawson said:


> There's a reason that individual TKD organizations have trademarked their full names but not just Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> I'd also point out that it's happened with other Korean martial arts.  "Combat Hapkido" is still a thing, even though it pisses off traditional HKD folks and makes BJJ folks giggle.
> 
> ...


It's easier to do things like this when one has other organizations and people who are willing to put in a good word for you. It's one thing to bash people online to get ratings and clicks.  It's something totally different to run a business or organization.  People may get in their mind that it doesn't matter what other organizations think of you, but as a business it can be the difference between being successful and failing big.   If a business cannot satisfy a potential customer then they may be able to recommend another organization to train at.  Potential customer's may also ask "Hey what do you think about ?"   This actually happened in Martial Talk where one of the members asked about FTF and originally stated that he thought it was a good idea.  Within 30 minutes, the discussion filled up with people who don't think highly of FTF or it's founder (mainly the founder).  It wasn't that everyone disapproved of FTF it was that the founder was is a butt, no skill, no respect. etc...  

To this day people people are willing to go out of their way to highlight the negatives of this guy.   Had he taken a more respectful approach, he may have not only gotten support through advice but he may have even gotten some financial help to make his idea become reality.


----------



## Mattattack (Nov 7, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's easier to do things like this when one has other organizations and people who are willing to put in a good word for you. It's one thing to bash people online to get ratings and clicks.  It's something totally different to run a business or organization.  People may get in their mind that it doesn't matter what other organizations think of you, but as a business it can be the difference between being successful and failing big.   If a business cannot satisfy a potential customer then they may be able to recommend another organization to train at.  Potential customer's may also ask "Hey what do you think about ?"   This actually happened in Martial Talk where one of the members asked about FTF and originally stated that he thought it was a good idea.  Within 30 minutes, the discussion filled up with people who don't think highly of FTF or it's founder (mainly the founder).  It wasn't that everyone disapproved of FTF it was that the founder was is a butt, no skill, no respect. etc...
> 
> To this day people people are willing to go out of their way to highlight the negatives of this guy.   Had he taken a more respectful approach, he may have not only gotten support through advice but he may have even gotten some financial help to make his idea become reality.



Yes


----------



## lklawson (Nov 8, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's easier to do things like this when one has other organizations and people who are willing to put in a good word for you. It's one thing to bash people online to get ratings and clicks.  It's something totally different to run a business or organization.  People may get in their mind that it doesn't matter what other organizations think of you, but as a business it can be the difference between being successful and failing big.   If a business cannot satisfy a potential customer then they may be able to recommend another organization to train at.  Potential customer's may also ask "Hey what do you think about ?"   This actually happened in Martial Talk where one of the members asked about FTF and originally stated that he thought it was a good idea.  Within 30 minutes, the discussion filled up with people who don't think highly of FTF or it's founder (mainly the founder).  It wasn't that everyone disapproved of FTF it was that the founder was is a butt, no skill, no respect. etc...


It's my experience that most potential customers neither care about what competing organization bodies think of the competition, nor frequent MT to get the collective advice here.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## TrueJim (Nov 7, 2017)

Occasionally I'll check the interwebs to see how Taylor Kelly's so-called _Functional Taekwondo Federation_ is doing.

Taylor's original website is gone: *functionaltkd.com* Recall that the old website mostly consisted of a PayPal "donate now" button and a list of ways to tell whether or not your school was a McDojo. (Hint: one sign is children who are black belts.)
Taylor has taken down the infamous YouTube video where he said we should all "take our instructor's d*ck out of our mouths".
Taylor has opened up his own school in Texas now, and of course...
...it includes kids and family programs (two things that he previously didn't seem to have much tolerance for). Taylor starts kids at age 4.
Here's the new website that I guess replaces his old website: *Martial Arts In Grand Prairie Texas*
On Taylor's new website he explains the difference between his "functional taekwondo" and "regular taekwondo". tldr: the difference is the emphasis on self-defense. Martial Arts In Grand Prairie Texas


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 7, 2017)

TrueJim said:


> it includes kids and family programs (two things that he previously didn't seem to have much tolerance for). Taylor starts kids at age 4.


In fairness, none of the pictures seem to show kids with black belts. (I suppose we could check back in a couple of years once his school has been open longer to see if that is still the case.)


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## TrueJim (Nov 7, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In fairness, none of the pictures seem to show kids with black belts. (I suppose we could check back in a couple of years once his school has been open longer to see if that is still the case.)



True. Personally, I think student retention will be difficult for Taylor once (and if) the kids and parents realize that a black belt is unattainable. 

Certainly when comparing notes with other taekwondo schools in the community, parents will realize that Taylor's school is unusual. 
But even if there were no other schools in the community, I would think it would be very dispiriting for a kid to stick around for -- say, 4 years -- and be told he or she still has to wait another 6 years before he can become a black belt.


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## Ironbear24 (Nov 7, 2017)

Didn't he have a place in Canada? What happened to that?


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## Finlay (Nov 10, 2017)

Wow,

Didn' really know anything about this fella till reading the thread.

To me he is just another traditional style basher.  Unfortunately most of these guys don' have very much knowledge in what the art is or even martial arts in general.

I don't like his attitude or the way he presents his material. It seems very arrogant and disrespect the people that have gone beore him.

As someone who also studies alternative applications of the patterns I have always tried to do so on a respectful manner.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Nov 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have a problem with the concept. Taylor, however, doesn't have (IMO) a deep enough understanding of TKD to build off it. He has a total of 15 years of training, but that means he started training at around age 6. So at least the first 10 years don't build a lot of depth for understanding mechanics. So he has maybe 5 years of any depth, and that's just not much to use as a jumping-off point. I think he may have bought into the public mystique around what a black belt means, and believes he understands more than he does. By comparison, I have been involved with NGA since I was 18 (nearly 30 years) and had some relevant background before that. When I started building the curriculum for Shojin-ryu (more than 20 years in the art at that point), I still reached out to other folks within the art to check concepts (and still do). I have a slightly different focus than the mainline of the art, but I still know there's stuff more experienced instructors in the art can help me out in understanding. Taylor seems to feel like he has the answers already, when he is probably just about ready to start asking the right questions.
> 
> I think the Dunning–Kruger effect is in evidence.



I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if you have said this before. Let's take the instructor out of the picture for a moment and focus on the concept of the training and the system. Now, I doubt you'll find anyone who will say that changing a system to make it "better" is a bad thing. What we should decide is whether the FTF is improving on the current training of traditional TKD, and in my humble opinion, it doesn't. For this, I'm going to refer to this video from the FTF website:






Throughout the video there appears to be a lack of focus on the intent of the training, which could get very confusing for newcomers. We start off by hearing that the FTF focuses on self-defence, whereas "traditional" TKD focuses on forms, and we get the usual misrepresentation of forms as a training method. Ok, you don't want to do forms in your system? Fine, there are plenty of systems that don't use forms and are perfectly fine. He also wants to focus on self-defence, which again is fine. But here's where the problems start. He says (and I quote) "We teach you combat sports".......So are we learning sport fighting or self-defence? Then it gets weirder. He says "we teach you boxing, muay thai and Olympic-style Taekwondo".........huh? You say you want to teach techniques that can be transfered to street fighting/self-defence and yet you do Olympic-style Taekwondo, which is about the least realistic modern fighting sport you can get.

So, are they training for Olympic-style Taekwondo competition or self-defence?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 11, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so forgive me if you have said this before. Let's take the instructor out of the picture for a moment and focus on the concept of the training and the system. Now, I doubt you'll find anyone who will say that changing a system to make it "better" is a bad thing. What we should decide is whether the FTF is improving on the current training of traditional TKD, and in my humble opinion, it doesn't. For this, I'm going to refer to this video from the FTF website:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Agreed. That’s part of the lack of depth, IMO. With more experience he might be able to focus on something specific, rather than a vague notion of “better”.


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Nov 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That’s part of the lack of depth, IMO. With more experience he might be able to focus on something specific, rather than a vague notion of “better”.



I wouldn't even call it a lack of depth. The guy knows what he wants to achieve in this but has no idea how to achieve it. If the goal is to create a system that translates well into a self-defence scenario, you aren't going to achieve that by doing Olympic-style TKD. What's most worrying about this is that he seems under the impression that training for a competition and training for self-defence are the same thing. Sure there is an overlap but in my opinion they should be taught separately.


----------



## blackbeltsomeday (Feb 23, 2018)

I have been following Mr. Kelley for awhile as well and find his videos entertaining.  He is opening a new full time school in Texas.  We will have to see how this new endeavor goes!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 23, 2018)

I gave up posting on that a while ago, but part of the ad really annoyed me. The part that said "A good way for your high schooler to get service hours". By the time you're in high school, you should be determining your own hobbies/interests, not being pushed into competing in martial arts by your parents, and that line suggests this ad is for the parents of high schoolers to recruit them into forcing their son/daughter to learn/compete MA. It's not just them, it's a common idea I've seen in marketing that the parent (of high schoolers) decide what the kid wants, and I don't understand that in the slightest.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 23, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I gave up posting on that a while ago, but part of the ad really annoyed me. The part that said "A good way for your high schooler to get service hours". By the time you're in high school, you should be determining your own hobbies/interests, not being pushed into competing in martial arts by your parents, and that line suggests this ad is for the parents of high schoolers to recruit them into forcing their son/daughter to learn/compete MA. It's not just them, it's a common idea I've seen in marketing that the parent (of high schoolers) decide what the kid wants, and I don't understand that in the slightest.


The exception to this would be someone like @JR 137, who plans on having his kids learn in high school (IIRC), to learn a skill. Learning a skill and being forced into a hobby are too separate things, and having a kid join an 'elite team' is forcing a hobby.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 14, 2018)

blackbeltsomeday said:


> I have been following Mr. Kelley for awhile as well and find his videos entertaining.  He is opening a new full time school in Texas.  We will have to see how this new endeavor goes!



Hopefully you won't be actually giving your time or money, he isn't exactly an expert, more like a black belt in talking smack.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 20, 2018)

Funniest thing about this, i just googled this FTF to find this thread yesterday or the day before.  This person is the one which made me dislike TKD, thinking about it, he probably did a Mcdojo TKD style.   Like i have heard bad things about one of the most popular TKD school chains in the U.S.  Or he didnt fully understand the differences in TKD styles. 

My personal annoyance was him not doing forearm blocks, which i have since looked into and found to work fine, granted they take practice and timing like probably hours of just  blocking various attacks at full speed. but there is no substitute for them if you need to block and him saying they didnt do full resistance when they do a fair amount of full resistance fighting at schools.   I never followed him much anyway, i haven't looked at a vid of his in a while.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2018)

Rat said:


> Funniest thing about this, i just googled this FTF to find this thread yesterday or the day before.  This person is the one which made me dislike TKD, thinking about it, he probably did a Mcdojo TKD style.   Like i have heard bad things about one of the most popular TKD school chains in the U.S.  Or he didnt fully understand the differences in TKD styles.
> 
> My personal annoyance was him not doing forearm blocks, which i have since looked into and found to work fine, granted they take practice and timing like probably hours of just  blocking various attacks at full speed. but there is no substitute for them if you need to block and him saying they didnt do full resistance when they do a fair amount of full resistance fighting at schools.   I never followed him much anyway, i haven't looked at a vid of his in a while.


The person that you are referring to doesn't have a good understanding of the system that he trained.  From what he stated they did a lot of demo type stuff and very little sparring based on the videos I of him sparring.  Maybe they did a lot of point fighting. He showed a video of him testing and the techniques that they were using were legit from what I could understand. However, techniques are only has useful as ones understanding of it.  

I don't think he bashes people anymore.  He actually apologized and he even said something good about Jow Ga Kung Fu and it's training.  I think Karma is getting him at the moment lol.





He's either talking about me or the guy in Australia lol.  This guy.




They go a little too hard for me lol.   They probably spend a lot of time training.  I'm pretty sure they have to pull some of their punches from times to time.   

Well any the FTF guy took down his martial arts bashing videos and is now more focused on his own school


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2018)

Just to clear up any confusion the "LOL" is in reference to the Karma statement and not the Apology video that the FTF guy did.  From what I can tell it seems to be an honest and sincere apology and it takes a lot for a person to do that.   It's not easy easy to owe up to crappy stuff that you did, admit it to the public, and to be honest in saying it.  To me it seems that he's starting to understand the techniques more that not everything taught to him was trash and that not all TMAs are trash.  He may have come to that realization that  many TMA students learn:  Knowing the application of a technique isn't the same as the knowledge one needs to actually be able to apply it in fight or sparring situation.

It's like stitching a wound.  We understand that a wound has to be clean and then stitched, but that's where most of our knowledge stops.  The knowledge from actually doing it and screwing up in the learning process is missing.  Our ability to perform those 2 seemingly simple tasks will fall short.  This is especially if the wound changes and presents us with a new problem.  Now things have become more complex from a small change or a big one.

To me martial arts is like that.  People know "If attacker does this then do this."  they can get that.  The problem is they don't know enough about the technique to be able to adapt to changes that would allow them to still use the technique.  I think this is where the FTF guy was at for the longest.  Instead of looking at what he knew from the perspective of "What am I doing, that is preventing me from being able to use this technique effectively?"  He just blew it of and saw from the perspective of "I'm not the problem, the martial arts system is." which stunt's ones ability to learn anything.

I'm glad he has made the change because before he was just sending people down the wrong path.  He's got 2,400+ subscribers that made and are making the same mistake that he made.  It will be interesting to see if they will follow his lead or continue to bash TMAs without him.


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## dvcochran (Jul 22, 2018)

FlamingJulian said:


> I know that some of you are going to get mad but I actually like the idea. I don't know that much about Taylor Kelley and his experience but it seems legitimate. He really wants to change the game and make TKD better than ever. I'm sure a lot of u guys are more experienced than me and know more arts but to me it seems legit. Any thoughts?


I was not familiar with the concept of "functional" TKD or Taylor Kelley until this post. So I watched what Youtube videos I could find. What I see is a Millennial who is using social media in some very negative ways. The concept of starting a new style by modifying an existing style is certainly not new and not wrong if you arguments are valid. His, I do not think are. He is a young man in the prime of age who is very gifted with his physical skills, kicks particularly. Ala, Tae Kwon Do. The brief sparring segment was more than unimpressive. Everything he is putting on video is scripted so anyone moderately informed in MA should be able to figure him out. My guess is he has a good amount of money backing him up and he is trying to create a hot iron to strike. 
I saw nothing that isn't taught at any good TKD Dojang so it is not about a new system, it is about a good school/Instructor which he may be. But nothing new.
If he continues to hone his craft for another 10 years, then he may qualify as one of many good Tae Kwon Do schools. Nothing new, just another really good instructor. 
I am sure everyone on this forum see Youtube as a blessing or a curse. I think it is the latter for Kelley.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 22, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> The person that you are referring to doesn't have a good understanding of the system that he trained.  From what he stated they did a lot of demo type stuff and very little sparring based on the videos I of him sparring.  Maybe they did a lot of point fighting. He showed a video of him testing and the techniques that they were using were legit from what I could understand. However, techniques are only has useful as ones understanding of it.
> 
> I don't think he bashes people anymore.  He actually apologized and he even said something good about Jow Ga Kung Fu and it's training.  I think Karma is getting him at the moment lol.
> 
> ...



Loved the last video. Good to see people still going hard. It was a lot of "boxing" (kind of) and very bad defense. They lacked a lot in training and would get killed if the gloves were off or in a SD situation but I love seeing the drive and effort from young folks like that. Maybe they just wanted to beat the crap out of each other. 
In my college days, more than once we would fight amongst ourselves if we couldn't get in a fight at one of the local bars so I get it.


----------



## dvcochran (Jul 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I don't have a problem with the concept. Taylor, however, doesn't have (IMO) a deep enough understanding of TKD to build off it. He has a total of 15 years of training, but that means he started training at around age 6. So at least the first 10 years don't build a lot of depth for understanding mechanics. So he has maybe 5 years of any depth, and that's just not much to use as a jumping-off point. I think he may have bought into the public mystique around what a black belt means, and believes he understands more than he does. By comparison, I have been involved with NGA since I was 18 (nearly 30 years) and had some relevant background before that. When I started building the curriculum for Shojin-ryu (more than 20 years in the art at that point), I still reached out to other folks within the art to check concepts (and still do). I have a slightly different focus than the mainline of the art, but I still know there's stuff more experienced instructors in the art can help me out in understanding. Taylor seems to feel like he has the answers already, when he is probably just about ready to start asking the right questions.
> 
> I think the Dunning–Kruger effect is in evidence.


Love the D-K reference. Very applicable.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Love the D-K reference. Very applicable.


And I think Taylor's progression to the apology and his current views is a result of him learning more, and realizing how much he didn't (and doesn't) know.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 22, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Loved the last video. Good to see people still going hard.


He's the first guy that I know of that showed videos of him sparring and trying to use the techniques he trains.  He does some cross training as well because I think his kids are into MMA, but other than that he really does his best.  I told him everything I watch his videos it makes me think I should be training harder.  If you check his youtube page you can see more of his kung fu stuff. 



dvcochran said:


> They lacked a lot in training and would get killed if the gloves were off or in a SD situation but I love seeing the drive and effort from young folks like that. Maybe they just wanted to beat the crap out of each other.


 I don't know about their fighting skills in terms of self-defense but it's definitely clear they are more than willing and able to take a good punch.  They definitely spar with more power than I do or prefer.


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## Mattattack (Jul 23, 2018)

This guy's vitriolic videos was what made me sign up for this board in the first place. I was so frustrated by them--not just because of them but as a symbol of art-bashing and martial-arts-trolling in general--that I needed to vent my spleen before it exploded on me.

As I discussed in previous posts, I don't fault him for trying to build something new (that's a tough row to hoe), but how he went about it was unproductive. Bruce Lee built his rep in part on dissing other systems and challenging all comers, but he shied away from that as time went on when he had more to lose by being beaten (or by not beating someone quickly and decisively). That's one of many pitfalls of the* troll-to-enroll* strategy of building a martial art.

Some of the criticisms he and his friend made--as has been noted by several posters on this forum--showed how little he and his friend understood about other martial arts. For instance, they claimed that Karate was bad because it didn't include punches to the face. They were leveling a criticism against sport karate against all forms of karate. I replied several times to their videos referencing some classic Karate texts from the likes of Funakoshi and Oyama (things they could find on their own) that show punches to the head, but got no reply.

And THEN, they would hold up MMA as the gold standard of *all *fighting. As others have noted, MMA is a martial art, not THE martial art. It's a rule-bound system purpose built for audience enjoyment and a degree of safety for the fighters (hence no groin shots, eye gouges, downward elbows to downed fighters, etc.). I'm not saying that MMA fighters can't keep themselves safe on the street, but that there is more to physical self defense than what is allowed in the ring.

To put it in the terms of my profession--a writing teacher--he was making faulty arguments of hasty generalizations and false equivalencies, and it irked me.

I saw the apology video that Mr. Kelly made, and I think it's a good step for him. I do think it's step toward maturity. 

When I was in my early twenties and training, I thought I had the master key to the Temple of *** Kicking Secrets. Now, almost a decade and a half later (after I found my limits and realized I wasn't the hotshot I imagined) art bashing turns me off.

It's a stage. Some people go through it, some people get stuck in it, and some people flame out in it. I hope Mr. Kelly moves on to a more productive mode of commenting on other martial arts. As he says in his apology videos, we should focus more on the real enemy like the Fake Maces of the world and not on other styles that committed the grievous sin of not being the one we chose.

Peace


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## pdg (Jul 23, 2018)

Mattattack said:


> we should focus more on the real enemy like the Fake Maces of the world



Well, you say that...

Who was it that claimed a spurious lineage? 

Mace.

Who was it who claimed Dan grades that didn't exist? 

Kelly.

Who was it that had the very vast majority of their output dedicated to bashing styles they knew pretty much nothing about? 

Kelly. (I've never seen Mace style bash).

Who was it that produced 'instructional' videos where they couldn't actually physically perform the techniques they were trying to demonstrate?

Kelly.

I could go on, but really the sole reason I can see for Mace being such an 'enemy' is that he claimed a lineage in a TCMA (oooh, heretic), and dared to share "secret and proprietary techniques". Maybe the stuff he does is bad from a TCMA perspective (I don't know the criteria by which they judge), but at least he looks good doing it and let's say you can't fake fitness and flexibility. (Admittedly, I haven't watched any of his videos for a while, he's had every chance to prove me entirely wrong here )

Maybe Kelly does deserve a bit of a break for apologising and basically going against everything he previously so vehemently stood for, or maybe he's just hiding it because he's realised where the money comes from for his school...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jul 24, 2018)

pdg said:


> Kelly. (I've never seen Mace style bash).




I think Mace has bashed some modern sport fighting, i havent watched any of his vids recently though so i dont know.

edit:    Master Wong does pretty  good combative Wing Chun videos, i cant comment on it as i dont know wing chun but the logic seems to be there.     The funny thing about that is Kelly convinced me Wing chun didnt work well as a martial art, yet i like to occasionally watch master wong videos.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 24, 2018)

Rat said:


> I think Mace has bashed some modern sport fighting, i havent watched any of his vids recently though so i dont know.
> 
> edit:    Master Wong does pretty  good combative Wing Chun videos, i cant comment on it as i dont know wing chun but the logic seems to be there.     The funny thing about that is Kelly convinced me Wing chun didnt work well as a martial art, yet i like to occasionally watch master wong videos.


I can't judge the quality of his WC, but I really find Master Wong entertaining.


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## Mattattack (Jul 26, 2018)

pdg said:


> Who was it that had the very vast majority of their output dedicated to bashing styles they knew pretty much nothing about?
> 
> Kelly. (I've never seen Mace style bash).
> 
> ...



You make a good point. I've not seen all of Mace's videos by a long shot, but at least I've never seen him bash. He seems to try to keep it positive, which is probably why he has people who genuinely follow him.

I'd like to think that Kelly is maturing and realizing where all that false bravado leads. Maybe that's optimism, maybe that's today's anxiety medicine kicking in, or maybe it's just that I've run out of ire...for the moment.


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## Mattattack (Jul 26, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can't judge the quality of his WC, but I really find Master Wong entertaining.



Wong is a character straight out of a movie. I've listened to WT people quibble with his stuff, and I see their points, but damn if he isn't fun/funny to watch. I wish I could project that kind of "this is the bad crazy with more than enough to go around" energy.


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