# Who is the father of Karate



## Manny (May 21, 2009)

Who is the father of the karate? I know Jigoro Kano was the father of judo but it seems that karate has many ryus and don't know who is the truly father of karate.

Manny


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 21, 2009)

Okay, I will admit it.  I named my kid 'Karate Sullivan', making me the father of 'Karate.'

Not really, but it sounded good.  I might be willing to say that Funakoshi is the father of _Japanese_ _Karatedo_ (which may be quite debatable), but I am not sure that tracing Karate to a single individual is possible.

Daniel


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## JadecloudAlchemist (May 21, 2009)

Some say Funakoshi was the father of modern Karate.
 He was one of the ones who brought Okinawan Karate to the mainland of Japan.

But if you are looking from Okinawa to trace it to one person from China I don't think it can be done because different people set up their own ryu-ha so I am unsure if it can be traced to one person.

But maybe someone who is more knowledgable on Karate can shed some light.


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## punisher73 (May 21, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Some say Funakoshi was the father of modern Karate.
> He was one of the ones who brought Okinawan Karate to the mainland of Japan.
> 
> But if you are looking from Okinawa to trace it to one person from China I don't think it can be done because different people set up their own ryu-ha so I am unsure if it can be traced to one person.
> ...


 
I would have to second that opinion.  I think Funakoshi could be considered it since he brought it to the forefront and was widely responsible for it's mainstream spread.


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## arnisador (May 21, 2009)

Funakoshi Gichin is surely the father of modern (i.e. Japanese) karate. As to Okinawan karate, I don't know what to say...Chojun Miyagi is one of the most notable of the many who played a key role, but there isn't a single figure. An art like Uechi Kanbun's is separate from the development of the others in many ways. It's hard to say.


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## twendkata71 (May 21, 2009)

*The oldest known practitioner of what we know as karate todays was Sakagawa toide. I guess you could consider him the father of Karate(Okinawan), Funakoshi Gichin father of Karate(Japanese), Robert Trias father of karate(American) being the first American to teach karate in America.*
*To break it down further Hiagoanna Kanryoh father of karate(Naha te) Goju ryu,Uechi ryu,too'n ryu. , Matsumura Sokon father of karate(Shuri te)Shorin ryu and Shorinji ryu styles.*
*Matsumora Kosanku father of karate (Tomari te)Okinawa kempo,Okinawa kenpo,Ryukyu kempo styles. *
*Hope that helps. *


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## Makalakumu (May 21, 2009)

arnisador said:


> Funakoshi Gichin is surely the father of modern (i.e. Japanese) karate. As to Okinawan karate, I don't know what to say...Chojun Miyagi is one of the most notable of the many who played a key role, but there isn't a single figure. An art like Uechi Kanbun's is separate from the development of the others in many ways. It's hard to say.



It's really hard to isolate who would be considered the Father of Karate because there basically are three distinct flavors of Okinawan Te.  These flavors are based off of the various geographic regions in Okinawa.  That said, we have Shuri Te, Tomari Te, and Naha Te.  In each I will list down the person I believe had the greatest influence and why.

Shuri Te - *Sokon Matsumura* - Out of all the masters of Shuri systems, no one trained more adepts and influenced more people then Matsumura.  His influence is felt in most of the karate practiced around the world.  Shotokan is directly influenced by his teachings and thus all Korean Karate flows from this spring...and this neglects to mention all of the Okinawan styles that trace direct lineage back to the man. 

Tomari Te - This pick is controversial because Tomari Te is so diffuse and has mostly been adopted in Shuri systems.  It's not really a system of itself anymore.  That said, *Kosaku Matsumora*, who taught Choki Motobu, Chotoku Kyan and perhaps even Gichin Funakoshi (this may be disputed).  Those three masters had a huge influence on the development of karate-do throughout the world.

Naha Te - *Higoanna Kanryo* - The development of this style of karate on Okinawa is nearly always traced back to the practice of this man.  Yes, there is the karate of Kanbun Uechi, but his karate is nothing but an earlier version of what Higoanna practiced.  Also, the karate of Higoanna is far more widespread.


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## Manny (May 21, 2009)

Upsss alot of names, well, lets say Funakoshi was the father or modern Karate.

Manny


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## dancingalone (May 21, 2009)

Manny said:


> Upsss alot of names, well, lets say Funakoshi was the father or modern Karate.
> 
> Manny



Why?  There's been discussion that it was actually Funakoshi's student Masatoshi Nakayama who is responsible for Shotokan's long lines today, having changed what he learned from his teacher to suit his own Japanese aesthetic ideals.  Funakoshi's personal karate may have looked a lot closer to what we typically think of as shorin-ryu karate.

You may as well say Chuck Norris is the father of modern karate with as much accuracy.

To try and answer the original question is impossible.  It could be "Bushi" Matsumura or Gichin Funakoshi or even Ed Parker based on what you train in and what you consider karate to be.


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## Makalakumu (May 21, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> To try and answer the original question is impossible.  It could be "Bushi" Matsumura or Gichin Funakoshi or even Ed Parker based on what you train in and what you consider karate to be.



Not impossible. It's just a matter of lineage, IMO.  The so-called Father of Karate would be the person who has the most connections.


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## arnisador (May 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Yes, there is the karate of Kanbun Uechi, but his karate is nothing but an earlier version of what Higoanna practiced.



Well, it's more like a cousin I'd say--he brought it back from China around the turn of the 20th century but it was related to the arts brought to Okinawan in the 1500s and continually replenished by Ryukyuan sailors.



> Also, the karate of Higoanna is far more widespread.



Absolutely! Uechi-ryu is an oddity in many ways.


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## dancingalone (May 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Not impossible. It's just a matter of lineage, IMO.  The so-called Father of Karate would be the person who has the most connections.



Far too broad a definition for me.  You might as well name the apocryphal Bodhiharma as the father of karate since he by definition would have the most connections down any hypothetical family tree.

In my personal opinion, Sokon Matsumura or Kanryo Higashionna would be the best answer based on which kind of karate you do.


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## Makalakumu (May 21, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Far too broad a definition for me.  You might as well name the apocryphal Bodhiharma as the father of karate since he by definition would have the most connections down any hypothetical family tree.



Since there is so much debate on this figure in regards to the martial arts, he would stand as a poor example to stand as the "Father of" anything IMO.  That said, I believe the idea of lineage bears more consideration.  When we consider the idea of who was actually involved in the development of certain ideas and principles, an analysis of lineage is unavoidable.



dancingalone said:


> In my personal opinion, Sokon Matsumura or Kanryo Higashionna would be the best answer based on which kind of karate you do.



How would you arrive at this opinion without taking lineage into account?


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## Bill Mattocks (May 21, 2009)

Manny said:


> Who is the father of the karate? I know Jigoro Kano was the father of judo but it seems that karate has many ryus and don't know who is the truly father of karate.



Al Gore.


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## dancingalone (May 21, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> How would you arrive at this opinion without taking lineage into account?



I suppose lineage does enter the picture inevitably.  I pick Matsumura and Higashionna since they're the earliest karate figures identified with the either the Ryukyu Islands or Japan, given karate's classification as an Okinawan or Japanese art.


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## K-man (May 22, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> It's really hard to isolate who would be considered the Father of Karate because there basically are three distinct flavors of Okinawan Te. These flavors are based off of the various geographic regions in Okinawa. That said, we have Shuri Te, Tomari Te, and Naha Te. In each I will list down the person I believe had the greatest influence and why.
> 
> Shuri Te - *Sokon Matsumura* - Out of all the masters of Shuri systems, no one trained more adepts and influenced more people then Matsumura. His influence is felt in most of the karate practiced around the world. Shotokan is directly influenced by his teachings and thus all Korean Karate flows from this spring...and this neglects to mention all of the Okinawan styles that trace direct lineage back to the man.
> 
> ...


Good choices all. I think you could legitimately argue the case for each of these men. Each was highly influencial in his own way.
*Itosu Yasutsune* is another to be considered. All of these men left a lasting legacy of kata that have been passed down through the generations. Itosu _modernised _karate for the schools (in Okinawa) before Funakoshi so if spreading the popularity of karate is the criteria I would favour him over Funakoshi. 
Despite my Goju background and a sentimental attachment to Higoanna, who to my mind comes a close second, my vote goes to Sokon Matsumura for the reason that he was teaching karate well before the others started. He was the first to integrate the Chinese forms and he laid out the path the others later followed. Others may have been more influential but they may not have even been in the frame if it wasn't for Sokon Matsumura*. :asian:*


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## twendkata71 (May 22, 2009)

*Chuck Norris, father of Chun kuk do, system of karate-combining Tangsoo do,Shito ryu(from Demura Fumio-Itosukai at the time), BJJ and Judo.*





dancingalone said:


> Why? There's been discussion that it was actually Funakoshi's student Masatoshi Nakayama who is responsible for Shotokan's long lines today, having changed what he learned from his teacher to suit his own Japanese aesthetic ideals. Funakoshi's personal karate may have looked a lot closer to what we typically think of as shorin-ryu karate.
> 
> You may as well say Chuck Norris is the father of modern karate with as much accuracy.
> 
> To try and answer the original question is impossible. It could be "Bushi" Matsumura or Gichin Funakoshi or even Ed Parker based on what you train in and what you consider karate to be.


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## twendkata71 (May 22, 2009)

*Other "Fathers of" *
*Ed Parker-father of American Kenpo Karate*
*Jhoon Rhee-Father/First teacher of American Taekwondo/Korean Karate or first to introduce Taekwondo to America.*
*Hwang Kee-Father of Tang soo do/Modern Soo Bahk do-Korean Karate.*
*James Wax-First American Black belt to teach Matsubayashi Shorin ryu in America.*
*Ed Kouladis-First American Black belt to teach Koei Kan Karate do in America. Or so I am told.*
*Jerry Gould-First American black belt to teach Shobayashi Shorin ryu in America.*
*Robert Trias-First American to teach Karate in America(1946). Founder of the first American Karate Association(USKA). *
*As far as Funakoshi Gichin being the Father of Modern Karate do(Being the first Okinawan to teach karate in Japan), Mabuni Kenwa, and Motobu Choki also started teaching karate in Japan in that same year 1921. Funakosi being the first actual one to teach. It should have been Mabuni since, Mabuni was senior to Funakoshi(longer serving student of Itosu Ankoh). *


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## twendkata71 (May 22, 2009)

*Oh yeah, Elvis Presley- First Rock star /Karate Master.*


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## Carol (May 22, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *Chuck Norris, father of Chun kuk do, *



Each time I see this system I swear I think its "Chuck kan do"


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## terryl965 (May 22, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Each time I see this system I swear I think its "Chuck kan do"


 

Me To


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 22, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *Oh yeah, Elvis Presley- First Rock star /Karate Master.*


Thankya, thankya vury much.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (May 22, 2009)

Necessity is the father of karate of course!

Not just a flip answer, have a think about it!


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## Makalakumu (May 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> Necessity is the father of karate of course!
> 
> Not just a flip answer, have a think about it!



Ah, you are very wise!


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## Tez3 (May 22, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> Ah, you are very wise!


 
Nah just old...so old lol! 

If anything it was the weapons ban in Okinawa that is the father of karate, no one would have placed a great importance on unarmed combat if they'd been able to use weapons would they?

I tend to find lineage discussions a bit of a tussle between people who want to prove who has the most 'genuine' art and they tend to end up in arguments lol!


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 22, 2009)

Personally, I feel that the importance of lineage is in the study of how a style or system developed rather than for pedigree purposes.  

For example, the fact that Taekwondo can trace its lineage to or through Shotokan does not make Shotokan greater or lesser, but it allows me to better understand the roots of taekwondo and better understand the thought behind the techniques.

In addition, knowing which Kwan my particular instructor can ultimately trace his lineage to may give insights into how techniques are viewed within his lineage.  Now, as my GM is Kukkiwon and is not old enough to have been a part of an original pre-KKW kwan makes this less important, but knowing that his instructor was Kang Duk Won explains some of GM Kim's view of taekwondo.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (May 22, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I feel that the importance of lineage is in the study of how a style or system developed rather than for pedigree purposes.
> 
> For example, the fact that Taekwondo can trace its lineage to or through Shotokan does not make Shotokan greater or lesser, but it allows me to better understand the roots of taekwondo and better understand the thought behind the techniques.
> 
> ...


 
I like that view of it! It when it's used for bragging rights or to boast it annoys me as it does when the lineage becomes more important than actually practising the art!


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## Omar B (May 22, 2009)

Chuck's style is something I've always wanted to check out.  School not distributed evenly around the country though.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I like that view of it! It when it's used for bragging rights or to boast it annoys me as it does when the lineage becomes more important than actually practising the art!


Absolutely!  

My other big issue with lineage is when it is purposely falsified in order to remove an art from its actual lineage and dress it up as being thousands of years old or to have origins that it does not really have.  Aside from that I do not care to be lied to, it also makes letigimate research of art's techniques more difficult.

Daniel


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## arnisador (May 22, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> If anything it was the weapons ban in Okinawa that is the father of karate, no one would have placed a great importance on unarmed combat if they'd been able to use weapons would they?



If we're being nonliteral, I'd have to say it was Southern Chinese Kung Fu that was the father of karate (as separate from the unarmed techniques of the Ryukyuans before hand).


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## K-man (May 22, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *Other "Fathers of" *
> *Ed Parker-father of American Kenpo Karate*
> *Jhoon Rhee-Father/First teacher of American Taekwondo/Korean Karate or first to introduce Taekwondo to America.*
> *Hwang Kee-Father of Tang soo do/Modern Soo Bahk do-Korean Karate.*
> ...


 IMHO none of these are 'fathers' but more 'children', 'grandchildren' or 'great grandchildren' of the real '_fathers of karate'_. It is the legacy of the 'fathers' that the children and the rest of us have inherited.  :asian:


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## Dave Leverich (May 22, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I feel that the importance of lineage is in the study of how a style or system developed rather than for pedigree purposes.
> 
> For example, the fact that Taekwondo can trace its lineage to or through Shotokan does not make Shotokan greater or lesser, but it allows me to better understand the roots of taekwondo and better understand the thought behind the techniques.
> 
> ...


Nice Daniel, nice!
My own lineage went from Lee Stultz/Willie Rankins/Clinton Robinson->Jong H. Lee->Hwang Kee. I'm not sure if I've ever seen a 'real' history of who GM Hwang Kee learned under, but it goes back at least that far. I know GM JH Lee is a KKW 9th, along with MDK (TKD). Also, the group was doing TSD at the start of the 70's and then switched to TKD and taught in China in the early 70's.

Anyway, I find a similar feeling about it, and nuances of techniques from it's roots in TSD MDK (side kicks differ greatly from KKW standard side kicks etc, although I do both kinds). It's nice to know your family tree, who/what/where/when and all that.


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## searcher (May 23, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *The oldest known practitioner of what we know as karate todays was Sakagawa toide. I guess you could consider him the father of Karate(Okinawan), Funakoshi Gichin father of Karate(Japanese), Robert Trias father of karate(American) being the first American to teach karate in America.*
> *To break it down further Hiagoanna Kanryoh father of karate(Naha te) Goju ryu,Uechi ryu,too'n ryu. , Matsumura Sokon father of karate(Shuri te)Shorin ryu and Shorinji ryu styles.*
> *Matsumora Kosanku father of karate (Tomari te)Okinawa kempo,Okinawa kenpo,Ryukyu kempo styles. *
> *Hope that helps. *


 

A great post, but I think the most influental Tode master was Seisho Aragaki.    He trained many of the masters that have been mentioned and he was considered to bethe best of his day.    Not a lot is known of him as he left no style behind, but he influenced Goju-ryu, Chito-ryu, Tomari-te, Naha-te, Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Shito-ryu,......      He left behind many kata that are shared in many styles.

Who is the Father?    There is not one single Father.    There are many masters that share the title.


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## K-man (May 23, 2009)

Here is a link which gives an indication of the contribution made by some of the originators of karate. http://www.angelfire.com/sk/budokai/Katainfo.html

If you would like to read a little about Seisho Aragaki check out:
http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=97


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## twendkata71 (May 23, 2009)

searcher said:


> A great post, but I think the most influental Tode master was Seisho Aragaki. He trained many of the masters that have been mentioned and he was considered to bethe best of his day. Not a lot is known of him as he left no style behind, but he influenced Goju-ryu, Chito-ryu, Tomari-te, Naha-te, Isshin-ryu, Shotokan, Shito-ryu,...... He left behind many kata that are shared in many styles.
> 
> Who is the Father? There is not one single Father. There are many masters that share the title.


 I was not stating who was the most influential Master of Karate,  I list Sakagawa "Toide" because he is know as the first to teach/develop the Chinese arts into what is known today as karate.
As far as Aragaki goes, he also created his own version of Seisan, this version is taught in Many of the Shorin schools as well as being the Hangetsu kata in Shotokan. And is very different from the Seisan of Goju ryu(Hiagoanna-Miyagi) lineage.  Yes, he did have a great deal of influence on the karate being developed in his time. 
I stated Sakagawa as a father of karate because he is a generation or two before Aragaki.  Sakagawa was before Hiagoanna Kanryo, Matsumura Sokon(Sakagawa was Matsumura's teacher), Matsumora Kusanku,etc.
Sakagawa's teacher's were Pechin Takahara and Kusanku from China. Sakagawa was said to have actually traveled to China to train at Shoalin(Don't know if this is fact or not), it is known that he did train in China after meeting and learning from Kusanku(Chinese trade envoy, and or Military attache'), Sakagawa is said to have created the kata Kusanku in honor of his teacher or from his teachings. 
Also many today call the old Okinawan art Tode/Toide, when I believe the correct term(in Okinawan Dialect is ) Uchinadi. They may have been separate arts, not sure, will research that somemore.  I have also read that Sakagawa was a master of Ti(royal court/family art) indigenous to Okinawa and different from what is know as Te/Toide/ or Uchinadi. Ti originally only being handed down from father to son within a certain family, no outside students, or to high ranking court officials of the Ryukyu kingdom. When I have witnessed demonstations of Ti, it looks like Aikido/Aikijujitsu more than a karate/or striking art. I am no expert in this art so I do not know the facts.  I do know by being on the receiving end of some of its techniques that when it is combined with Karate it has a devastating effect on the person on the receiving end of the attack. I have also been told that many of the Okinawan karate kata have hidden ti elements in them. I believe that Uehara was the first to openly teach Ti to outsiders(non family), at least of the Motobu ryu style of Ti. I do know that Higa O'sensei of the Bugei Kan school on Okinawa also taught Ti and karate to the public, his style of Ti of a different lineage of that of the Motobu family.
Yes, there are several "Fathers of karate" on Okinawa of different origins. All were influenced by some style of Chinese martial art/boxing style. 
Shorin style being of White Crane boxing and Shoalin lineage more northern chinese styles.
Goju ryu and Uechi ryu being of southern styles of Chaun Fa. 
Uechi ryu looks more like its original Chinese style(Pang Gai Noon) [more flowing and softer looking movements,than most Okinawan karate styles[which are more linear, stiffer and less circular, with the exception of Goju ryu].
There is also the Kojo ryu family style that is more Chinese gung fu than karate.
Again this is the conclusion of the research I have done and what I have found so far from contacting martial artist from Japan, Okinawa and here in the US. 
My research is a work in process and if others have more valid information on these subjects please share so that I can update my research information.


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## twendkata71 (May 23, 2009)

K-man said:


> IMHO none of these are 'fathers' but more 'children', 'grandchildren' or 'great grandchildren' of the real '_fathers of karate'_. It is the legacy of the 'fathers' that the children and the rest of us have inherited. :asian:


 I have no arguement there. You are correct in that it would be more accurate to classify these men as the 'Children','Grandchildren' or 'Greatgrand children of the Real fathers of Karate/Te/Uchinadi.

Some of the facts are that 
Nagamine Shoshin-founder of Matsubayashi Shorin ryu karate, was a third generation student of the Matsumura Sokon lineage, learning from Kyan,Arakaki,and Motobu-students of Itosu-who was a student of Matsumura.
Shimabukuro Eizo(Shobayashi Shorin ryu Soke) was a student of Kyan Chotoku and Toyaman Kanken both students of Itosu Ankoh.
Nagazato Shugoro(Shorinkan Shorin ryu/Kobayash Ryu) was a student of Chibanna Chosin-student of Itosu
Nagazato Joen(Shorinji ryu) was a student of Itosu and Nakamura Shigeru(Okinawan Kenpo/Kempo).
Soken Hohan(Seito Matsumura Shorin ryu) was a student of Matsumura Nabe(nepew of Matsumura Sokon), and would be considered a second generation student of Matsumura lineage karate.
Matsubayashi Shorin ryu being considered a newer style of Shorin ryu karate,Kobayashi and Shobayashi being created(named) earlier. 
The three main styles of Shorin ryu are (Matsubayashi,Kobayashi and Shobayashi) and Seito Matsumura shorin ryu being a more obscure style of Shorin ryu, eventhough is has a more direct lineage, is not has widespread as the other there. Now there are many factions of Shorin ryu, just like there are many factions of Shito ryu,Goju ryu, and even Uechi ryu in the karate world. And most if not all claiming to be the more authentic version of the chosen style. 
All of that and the politics in karate gives me a headache. Why can't karate just be karate and be done with it, without all of the "Egos". To me karate is karate, I don't care what style someone is. If I can learn something useful from them(i.e. their style) then it is useful to me and real karate. Japanese Karate,Okinawan karate, Korean Karate, American karate. I enjoy all and find all useful and important. There are however Many "so called" American and Japanese karate styles out there[created out of ego,or whatever] that frankly lack depth,practicality,and effectiveness that are being passed off as legitemate styles/forms of karate.  
Nowadays with a new "Soke" and "Style" popping up every so often, I can see how it is hard for people(general public) to take karate seriously. This is not just an American issue, the same thing is happening in Japan,Korea,India and other countries. Many martial artist today are too interested in becoming a "Soke". "10th dan", "Founder" too quickly and not developing actual substance in their style, believing that high rank will lead to a quick buck or more money and not caring how it effects karate,Taekwondo,Martial arts as a whole. Its sad really. 
My teacher held the same rank for almost 30 years before considering promotion to a higher rank. I know dedicated karate ka that have been the same rank for 40 years and because their sensei has passed away or has parted ways, have no interst in going higher in rank, instead focusing on their training and development of the style they learned, quality instead of quantity, or fame or money. 
I read  a lot of people bashing Taekwondo stating that it is not as authentic,effective,etc. as Japanese,or Okinawan karate. And yes, Taekwondo is a fairly new art, with influences/origins with Japanese Karate do, but in fact, Korean martial arts have a longer history than Japanese,Okinawan or Chinese Martial arts. Archeologist having found depictions of martial arts training on Tomb and temple walls that are 5,000 years old. Far predating Chinese 2000 years old,Japanese 1,500 to 1,600 years old or Okinawan less than a thousand years old- martial arts. Most Japanese would never admit to the Korean culture or the Korean's being the forefathers of most marial arts. Nor would the Chinese or Okinawan's(eventhough the Okinawans are not as obssesed with such things).
Other origins(forefathers of martial arts) are India with temple carvings depicting martial arts training at least 3,000 to 4,000 years old, and Egyptian tombs with depictions of marial arts training 6,000 years old.
Since the earliest prehistory, humans have developed some sort of self defense/self protection forms out of necessity. Weither it be weapons forms, or empty hand forms. 
Where it all began who knows and has been lost to the sands of time. 
Perhaps as some legends suggest the Ancient Advanced Culture of Atlantis created the first Martial or Military arts/training methods, that have been filtered throughout globe of the over the last 10,000 or so years. Of course no solid proof of Atlantis, its knowlege, culture,etc. truely exists. 
Other far out theories(non Christian or Judeo/Christian, Muslim or religion based) people claim that we are all decendent of Aliens who put us here and have cultivated out development through the Eons with frequent visits. 
If this were true, who knows the Martial arts we know today could, in theory be Millions or Billions of years old and have just been recycled over thousands of years of human evolution of knowledge and learning(not that I believe in Evolution in the traditional sense. This seems totally unlikely to me being a Christian-Human being and have faith in a higher power and not Alien ancestory theories. 
Who really knows. LOL.

Sorry a bit off topic. Hehe. Peace to all, keep training hard.
Live long and prosper.Etc. etc.:asian::karate::yoda::bangahead::yinyang::shinzaki::aoyagi::spock::ultracool
As for me I will get back to my training and researching in all things Budo.


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## kaizasosei (May 23, 2009)

The answer is simple.  Establish just who the son of karate is..then it stands to reason that the father of karate is that kids granddad....
deductive reasoning ba-by!  Gets it every time!
j


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## twendkata71 (May 23, 2009)

*In karate terms, my father in Karate is Don Madden Soke of the Seiei Kan karate do. My grandfather would be Onishi Eizo Hanshi, my great grandfather would be Toyama Kanken Hanshi, my Great great Grandfather would be Itosu Ankoh(shuri te), and my Great Great Great Grandfather of karate would be Matsumura Sokon, and my Great Great Great Great grandfather would be the grandfather of all Okinawan Shuri based styles Sakagawa Toide.*
*On the other side of my lineage would be again Don Madden soke as my father, Onishi as my grandfather, Jyihatsu as my great grandfather, and my great great grandfather would be Hiagoanna kanryoh of Naha te tradition. *
*On the Shotokan tradition of my lineage would be Mikami Teriyuki Hanshi 8th dan JKA as father, Nakayama Matayoshi 9th dan as grand father, Funakoshi Gichin as great great Grandfather, Itosu Ankoh and Azato Ankon as the great great Great Grandfathers, Matsumura sokon as the Great Great Great Great Grandfathers, and Sakagawa Toide as the Great great great great great Grand father. *
*In my Shorin ryu(Matsubayashi) lineage, my karate father was James Driggs Kyoshi 8th dan(currently) he was 5th dan when I was training with him, James Wax as the grand father, Nagamine Shoshin O'sensei would be the great grandfather, Kyan Chotoku would be the great great grandfather, Itosu again would be the great great great grandfather and so on.*
*In my Shito ryu tradition, would be Minobu miki Hanshi Hayashi ha/Seito Ha Shito ryu and Jane VanPhaphagen (shukokai Kempo-Tani Ha Shito ryu) would be the father/mother, Hayashi Teruo and Tani Chujiro would be the Grandfathers, Mabuni Kenwa would be the Great great grandfather, Itosu and Hiagoanna again would be the great great great grandgathers, and Matsumura and Gokenki would be the great great great great grandfathers, and so on. *
*I wouldn't have the lineage in my goju ryu and Wado training as is was very limited. *
*I have also had Chinese kenpo karate training, Judo and Aikido training, but only on a limited small basis.*
*I have had extensive Jujitsu training, but I would have to do a lot of research to learn the complete lineage of that line of tradition. *
*In Okinawan kobudo I have to lines of lineage from both major lines of Okinawan Kobudo(Ryukyu Kobudo-Taira lineage and Okinawan/or Matayoshi lineage Kobudo) which are distinclty different in technique and dynamics.*
*My Father as far as Matayoshi Lineage would be Mike Bukala Kyoshi 8th dan USA kobudo kan, Nishiuchi Hanshi as the grand father, Matayoshi Shinpo as the great grandfather, and Matayoshi Shinyo as the great great grandfather. *
*In Ryukyu Kobudo(taira type-Ryukyu kobudo hozon shinkokai) would be the mother would be Devorah Domeitrich Kyoshi 8th dan, grandfather would be Akemine, and Taira O'sensei as the great grandfather. This avenue in Kobudo I intend continue learning this year. *
*I know it sounds like a lot, but I have been in the martial arts for 29 years total, including my introduction to Judo and boxing by my actual father. And the rest of my 28 years in karate do and 18 years of Jujitsu/and other arts were spent constantly traveling, training, going to seminars, camps, tournaments/seminars, and visiting other dojo's to further my knowledge,development and understanding of the arts developing myself as a person(as Funakoshi stated"Seeking perfection of Character"). :asian::karate::bangahead:*


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## TimoS (May 29, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> As far as Aragaki goes, he also created his own version of Seisan, this version is taught in Many of the Shorin schools as well as being the Hangetsu kata in Shotokan



Really? In which Shorin schools do you see Aragaki Seisan? To my knowledge, it is an extinct kata and the only Aragaki Seisan you see today is the modern hybrid by McCarthy. The Shorin schools I know of that use Seisan (i.e. Kyan lineage) train Matsumura Seisan.


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## TimoS (May 29, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> learning from Kyan,Arakaki,and Motobu-students of Itosu-who was a student of Matsumura.



Kyan was not student of Itosu and, as said in another thread, Itosu was Matsumura's student only for a short time. His main teacher was (most likely) Gusukuma of Tomari




> Nagazato Joen(Shorinji ryu) was a student of Itosu and Nakamura Shigeru(Okinawan Kenpo/Kempo).



Nope, Nagazato Joen was a student of Kyan, not Itosu. I'll have to check about Nakamura Shigeru, but I can't say that I've ever heard about that.




> Soken Hohan(Seito Matsumura Shorin ryu) was a student of Matsumura Nabe(nepew of Matsumura Sokon), and would be considered a second generation student of Matsumura lineage karate.



Debatable, but let's not get into that




> The three main styles of Shorin ryu are (Matsubayashi,Kobayashi and Shobayashi)



Fourth being Sukunaihayashi, i.e. Zenryo Shimabukuro's Seibukan. Zenryo, not Eizo Shimabukuro was the seniormost student of Kyan at the time of his death.



> Many martial artist today are too interested in becoming a "Soke". "10th dan", "Founder" too quickly and not developing actual substance in their style, believing that high rank will lead to a quick buck or more money and not caring how it effects karate,Taekwondo,Martial arts as a whole. Its sad really.



How very true




> And yes, Taekwondo is a fairly new art, with influences/origins with Japanese Karate do, but in fact, Korean martial arts have a longer history than Japanese,Okinawan or Chinese Martial arts.



Sadly, the _authentic_ korean arts are all but extinct. Taekkyon and the ssirum/ssierum (a form of wrestling) are the only ones still left and at least Taekkyon was nearly extinct as well after WWII.


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## Daniel Sullivan (May 29, 2009)

kaizasosei said:


> The answer is simple. Establish just who the son of karate is..then it stands to reason that the father of karate is that kids granddad....
> deductive reasoning ba-by! Gets it every time!
> j


If I ever have a daughter, I will name her Kara Te.  Then I will truly be the father of karate and this thread will finally have its answer.

Daniel


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## twendkata71 (May 29, 2009)

*Thank you for the correction Timos, *
*I actually didn't mean to lump Kyan in with Motobu and Arakaki as being students of Itosu. And yes, Itosu was only a student of Matsumura for a short time before moving on to two other teachers. *
*I was actually told that Kyan had studied with Itosu when I was studying Matsubayashi Shorin ryu. *
*As far as Itosu being a student of matsumura for a short time, A short time on Okinawa can mean several years, or a decade or two, eh? Their concept of time is a little different. They have the highest rate of longevity in the world.  *
*I appreciate the corrections. I sometimes get typing on the forums and my memory gets a little cloudy.  That is why I am glad that there are many others in here that are knowledgable. *
*In the future, I will do more accurage research before posting information.  *
*Another mistake I made in my post was stating the Arakaki Ankichi was a student of Itosu, when actually Arakaki studied with Chibanna,Kyan and Hanashiro Chomo.*


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## twendkata71 (May 29, 2009)

TimoS said:


> Really? In which Shorin schools do you see Aragaki Seisan? To my knowledge, it is an extinct kata and the only Aragaki Seisan you see today is the modern hybrid by McCarthy. The Shorin schools I know of that use Seisan (i.e. Kyan lineage) train Matsumura Seisan.


 *Thanks for that correction. I was told by Shorin ryu members of my current organization that their version of Seisan was the Aragaki Seisan. One member was of Shobayashi Shorin ryu lineage. The other Chubu Shorin ryu.  They actually had attended several of Mr. McCarthy's seminars, so that may be what they meant. Adding it to their teaching. I may have just misunderstood. *
*The version of Seisan I learned from my teacher is of Matsumura type seisan as you stated. After watching Seisan demonstrated. *
*Of course Matsubayashi Shorin ryu does not teach seisan. Not sure why, didn't Kyan Chotoku teach seisan?*
*When I was younger I was really confused when I would see people from different styles (Goju ryu and Uechi ryu) performing seisan and they were very differenty from the Seisan that I learned and saw witnessed demonstrated by Shorin ryu stylist. *


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## twendkata71 (May 29, 2009)

*On a side note. Kyudokan shorin ryu (Higa)-their seisan looks like the Aragaki Seisan demonstrated by McCarthy's students.  From the video that I saw.*


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## TimoS (May 29, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *The other Chubu Shorin ryu.*


*

*Chubu just means "middle"*




			They actually had attended several of Mr. McCarthy's seminars, so that may be what they meant. Adding it to their teaching
		
Click to expand...


*Most likely. The McCarthy Seisan (I just can't bring myself to calling it Aragaki Seisan, since it is McCarthy's creation, taking elements from the various other Seisan kata in existense and has nothing to do with Seisho Aragaki)





> *Of course Matsubayashi Shorin ryu does not teach seisan. Not sure why, didn't Kyan Chotoku teach seisan?*



The reason for this, based on what I've been told, is that when Nagamine came to Kyan, he already had some experience in karate, so there was no need to teach him Seisan, which is the foundation kata for Kyan lineage

*



			When I was younger I was really confused when I would see people from different styles (Goju ryu and Uechi ryu) performing seisan and they were very differenty from the Seisan that I learned and saw witnessed demonstrated by Shorin ryu stylist.
		
Click to expand...

*
They are different, yes, but on the other hand, when I started looking past the "external form", I noticed the similarities in Goju and Shorin Seisan (not that familiar with the Uechi version). My opinion is that they are related (cousins, if you will), both stemming from the same "proto-Seisan" that has been lost in the sands of time. Shorin Seisan has become "okinawasized", where as the Goju Seisan has evolved on a different path in a different culture.


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*First off, yes I know that Chubu means middle. The Shorin ryu teacher that I was talking about refered to it as such. Probably Shobayashi Shorin ryu. *
*I do have a question. If Kyan never trained with Itosu, why do forms of Shorin ryu,Shorinji ryu teach Pinan kata? Since Itosu is credited with creating the Pinan kata? Do not all Shorin ryu styles and most Shorinji ryu teach the Pinan series kata? Did Kyan teach the Pinan kata? Again the reason I ask is that in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, when they list Kyan Chotoku's teachers they also list Itosu. Eventhough, since Kyan trained with Matsumura Sokon directly, why would he train with Itosu, wouldn't Kyan have been Itosu's senior in Matsumura lineage? Perhaps they trained together no so much as student and teacher, but peers exchanging ideas. What do you think? *
*As with most karate schools/styles, who you speak to, is the version of the answer/history you get.  And since much of Karate's earlier history was handed down in oral tradition instead of written form(Original Okinawan language didn't use a written language of their own, or so I am told. instead later using Chinese or Japanese as their written language).*
*Since we can't go back in time to find out first hand information, we have to rely on word of mouth handed down through the generations. Who's version of history/or truth do we believe? Assuming that all history was given honestly and with sincerity.  Which one's put their own spin on the story of embellish it?*


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *If Kyan never trained with Itosu, why do forms of Shorin ryu,Shorinji ryu teach Pinan kata? Since Itosu is credited with creating the Pinan kata? *


I can only answer for certainty in regards Seibukan. They were added later by Zenpo Shimabukuro, who learned them from Nakaima Chozo*




			Did Kyan teach the Pinan kata?
		
Click to expand...

*He did not. Kyan taught Seisan, Ananku, Wansu, Passai, Gojushiho, Kusanku and Tokumine no kun. Zenryo Shimabukuro added to his curriculum Wanchin, his own creation. Zenpo Shimabukuro added, in addition to Pinan 1-5, also Naifanchi 1-3, Jion and Passai Gwa. He learned all these from Nakaima Chozo, who, if I remember correctly, was a Chibana's student*.




			Again the reason I ask is that in Matsubayashi Shorin ryu, when they list Kyan Chotoku's teachers they also list Itosu.
		
Click to expand...

*Yes, I know, but Nagamine was the only student of Kyan to make that connection.* 




			Eventhough, since Kyan trained with Matsumura Sokon directly, why would he train with Itosu, wouldn't Kyan have been Itosu's senior in Matsumura lineage?
		
Click to expand...

*When Kyan was studying with Matsumura, Matsumura was already an old man, so it is likely that the actual teachings would have been conducted by Azato. When Kyan went with his father to mainland Japan, Matsumura died before he had the opportunity to come back*. *Also, Itosu was older that Kyan, so I think Itosu would have been Kyan's senior.*




			Perhaps they trained together no so much as student and teacher, but peers exchanging ideas. What do you think?
		
Click to expand...

*That is certainly possible and it is almost certain that Kyan was familiar with Itosu and what he taught. After all, Itosu was a nobleman also as was Kyan's father. 



> *Which one's put their own spin on the story of embellish it?*


That is the truth, it is often really hard to know for certainty. You have to cross-reference a lot of material, look at the physical evidence (kata) and even then it may come down to whose version of events you choose to believe. In this particular case, i.e. was Itosu Kyan's teacher we can look at the evidence:


Nagamine is the only Kyan's student to make the connection
Chibana, who we know to have been a long time student of Itosu, said Kyan did not learn from his teacher
If we discount these statements, there's still the kata: where in Kyan's karate is Itosu's "hand-print" visible? Nowhere. Itosu's kata look quite different from Kyan's kata. Itosu has the Dai and Sho versions of many kata, whereas Kyan has only one version of each. Also it is known where Kyan learned which kata


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*Thank you for answering my questions so promptly.  This is the information that I was looking for. *


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *Thank you for answering my questions so promptly.  This is the information that I was looking for. *



Well, it is quite easy, given the time difference between us  It is only 11 AM here


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## twendkata71 (May 30, 2009)

*I thought of asking Dan Smith Kyoshi.  He trains regularly with Shimabukuro Hanshi. But, no need you have answered most of my questions that I have. *


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## TimoS (May 30, 2009)

twendkata71 said:


> *I thought of asking Dan Smith Kyoshi.  He trains regularly with Shimabukuro Hanshi. But, no need you have answered most of my questions that I have. *



Yep, I think you'll get the same answers from him. I think at least part of my knowledge comes (indirectly) from him also. I've never met him, but hopefully that will happen in August in Okinawa


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## chinto (Jun 29, 2009)

the most influential and called the father of Karate is  Sokan 'bushi' Matsumura.   that is because he is credited with creating a combination of all the local techniques and some of the ones from china into a system first.

kusanku taugh chinese martial arts, and sakagawa did not systemize what he knew to teach to many like Sokan 'Bushi' Matsumura did.

funikoshi is well after matsumura.


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## Martin h (Jul 17, 2009)

There is no one that can be singled out as father of karate.

However, if you want a father of MODERN karate, I would single out Anko Itosu. 

Itosu was basically the one responsible for recreating the formerly individualistically trained karate into the large-group practice art we see today. He did this with the purpose of having karate included as PE in okinawan schools. He created several introductory katas seen in most styles today (the heian/pinans), he was largely responsible for formalizing the technique syllabus into modern (and sometimes very artificial and misgiving) techniqe names.

Many of his students has already been mentioned as other potential fathers in this thread. Funakoshi being one of them. Actually Funakoshis main addition to karate was his borrowing of judo uniforms and grading system into karate. Funakoshi was also the first to do a Demo infront of the Emperor, but he was not the first to open a dojo on mainland Japan (I THINK that was Motobu, but Im to lazy to check). Funakoshi is often credited with inventing the name karte, but he was actually far from the first to use it.


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## kohelet (Sep 30, 2009)

As for ancient Okinawan fighting systems I feel there is no way of knowing who was the first to teach them.  What would develop into modern karate in my opinion would have been Tode Sakugawa.  His combination of Kusanku's Chinese martial art with Takahara pechin's Te is where Okinawa-te began.  Its my understanding that his student Matsumura founded Shuri-Te and the Naha-Te began as a blend of Shuri-te with a style of Kempo from China by Higaonna.  If this development is incorrect, some help would be appreciated.

With folded hands,

Eric Eubanks, 4th Dan


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## Guliufa (Oct 10, 2009)

maunakumu said:


> The so-called Father of Karate would be the person who has the most connections.



No - that's the "God-Father" of Karate!:burp:


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## chinto (Oct 12, 2009)

Manny said:


> Who is the father of the karate? I know Jigoro Kano was the father of judo but it seems that karate has many ryus and don't know who is the truly father of karate.
> 
> Manny




well the closest choice would be  Sokon 'Bushi' Matsumura.  I would say that is so as he was the first to systematize the Okinawan TE and the Chuan Fa he had learned and put it into a codified system.


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## Ray B (Oct 12, 2009)

Sorry for coming into this so late.

Timo,
There is a family connection between the Kyans and the Chibanas. I don't remember exactly what, but they were distant relatives. Therefore Chibana would have been well aware if Kyan studied with Itosu.

Nakama was a student of Chibana along with Miyahira and Nakazato. Nakama and Miyahira were the only two that also trained with Motobu Choki.

I was told, that before the Pinan, Matusumura based karate syllabus was like Kyans. With the adoption of the Pinan, the curriculum was modified and so kata like Jion and Seisan were omitted. My guess it that it was redundant material. Chibana based karate typically has 5 kihon kata, 5 Pinan, 3 Naihanchi, 2 Passai, 2 Kusanku, Chinto and Gojushi-ho. That's 19 kata! More than enough.

Peace.


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## TimoS (Oct 12, 2009)

Ray B said:


> There is a family connection between the Kyans and the Chibanas. I don't remember exactly what, but they were distant relatives


Hmm, interesting. I'll have to ask my sources if they know more about that. I don't remember hearing about it before, but that doesn't prove anything


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## Ray B (Oct 13, 2009)

I think I'm going to retract that last statement regarading the Chibanas and Kyans. I cannot find the reference. I did however find a reference to the Chibanas and Motobus.

Peace.


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## TimoS (Oct 13, 2009)

Ray B said:


> I did however find a reference to the Chibanas and Motobus.


Hmm, interesting nevertheless. I seem to remember a family connection between Kyan and Motobu families. I'll see if I can find more info about that one.


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## TallAdam85 (Oct 25, 2009)

Funakoshi


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## TimoS (Oct 28, 2009)

TallAdam85 said:


> Funakoshi


Umm, no, not really. While he did play a (major) role in popularizing karate, he is only the father of one branch of karate.


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## Eubrontes (Nov 2, 2009)

Ray B said:


> I think I'm going to retract that last statement regarading the Chibanas and Kyans. I cannot find the reference. I did however find a reference to the Chibanas and Motobus.
> 
> Peace.


 
If this helps, in Classical Fighting Arts Magazine (Vol 2 number 4) in an interview with Pat Nakata, Charles C Goodin asks: "Motobu Sensei's son, Chosei Motobu, told me taht Kyan Sensei and MOtobu Sense were cousins - that Kyan Sensei or his father, was originally in the Motobu family but had married into the Kyan family.  Did you ever hear this?"
Mr. Nakata replied: "No, I did not."


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## Ray B (Dec 4, 2009)

No disrespect to you, but just because he never heard of it,
doesn't mean it was not possible.

Here is that link between the Chibanas and Motobus:
http://chibanaproject.blogspot.com/2007/12/as-year-draws-to-close-today-i-want-to.html

I try to post the other one if I ever find it.

Peace.


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## TimoS (Dec 4, 2009)

If I remember correctly, Kyan Chotoku sensei was adopted into the Kyan family from the Motobu family. Hmm, at least one web page suggests that it was actually Kyan Chofu, his father http://motobu-ryu.org/motobuudun_en.aspx


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## Ray B (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks Timo. That's the link I was looking for.
Since Shuri and Tomari Te were arts passed down through the
Royal families, it doesn't surprise me to see that many of the
more famous karate-ka were distant relatives.

Peace


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## Eubrontes (Dec 6, 2009)

Ray B said:


> No disrespect to you, but just because he never heard of it,
> doesn't mean it was not possible.
> 
> Here is that link between the Chibanas and Motobus:
> ...


 Great link.  Thank you.


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## Ray B (Dec 8, 2009)

TimoS said:


> If I remember correctly, Kyan Chotoku sensei was adopted into the Kyan family from the Motobu family. Hmm, at least one web page suggests that it was actually Kyan Chofu, his father http://motobu-ryu.org/motobuudun_en.aspx


 

Here is another source of the Motobu/Kyan connection:

Dragon Times Volume 20
Choki Motobu part 2
Revelations from his son Chosei...

"Chosei said that he was told by his older sister Shige that Chotoku Kyan was born into the Motobu clan. He changed his name upon joining the Kyan clan. Choki Motobu and Chotoku Kyan used to practice together. I have never heard this before and have never seen any photgraphs of Motobu Sensei and Kyan Sensei together. Perhaps this revelation will open up new avenues for research."

These were Chosei's own words.

Peace


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## Blade96 (Jan 18, 2010)

Masami Tsuruoka is generally considered to be the father of Karate in my country. (father of karate in canada)

He introduced karate into canada and helped found and organized our first karate competition (shortly after the death of O - Sensei Funakoshi, since funakoshi generally was against the competing idea)


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## Guliufa (Apr 20, 2010)

As someone stated previously, those who taught Sakugawa, impregnated him with the skill, making him the mother - giving birth to the art of Toudi. :uhyeah:

Seriously though, I would say Sakugawa is the Father of Karate(Toudi). 

I don't know how Funakoshi could even be brought up in this discussion... with all due respect.


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