# Your system work with knives?



## kenpofighter (May 19, 2008)

Does your self defense system train with knives or for knife attacks.  What different weapons do you and your system train with. Being in kenpo, myself, we mostly train with sticks(clubs, storms), knives(lances), and guns(rods).  I think these three weapons cover a wide variate of what an attacker might find or have out on the street.

                                        (MT guys and girls ideals?)


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## tshadowchaser (May 19, 2008)

lets see :wavey: i am in a FMA system so we tend to use a few knives and sticks at times  

_Good idea for a thread. I like hearing how others incorporate different weapons into their training. _


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## MJS (May 19, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> Does your self defense system train with knives or for knife attacks. What different weapons do you and your system train with. Being in kenpo, myself, we mostly train with sticks(clubs, storms), knives(lances), and guns(rods). I think these three weapons cover a wide variate of what an attacker might find or have out on the street.
> 
> (MT guys and girls ideals?)


 
I train in Kenpo and Arnis, so yes, both systems address blade and stick defense.  IMHO, Arnis or any of the FMAs, will address the use of each weapon, both offensively and defensively, in a much greater depth.  As far as guns go, I havent seen any gun defense in Arnis.


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## Ahriman (May 19, 2008)

We train in WMA, so yes, we work with and against anything edged or blunt-and-heavy. And sometimes we incorporate unarmed as well. 
Situational fights give a good idea of what the bad guy may be able to do. Waaay too much even as we don't incorporate firearms into the training.


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## arnisador (May 19, 2008)

tshadowchaser said:


> i am in a FMA system so we tend to use a few knives and sticks at times



Same here! It's integral to all that we do. Even when the oterh person isn't using a knife we are aware it could always be drawn at any time!


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## Ahriman (May 19, 2008)

*"Even when the other person isn't using a knife we are aware it could always be drawn at any time!"

*That's a thing everyone should be aware of during practice and outside. Just because the bad guy started with unarmed, you can't assume that he doesn't have a knife hidden somewhere, and just because he started with a knife, you can't assume that he doesn't have a gun with him.


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## kenpofighter (May 19, 2008)

Thats right Ahriman, you can't all ways tell if your attacker has a knife, gun or some other type of weapon.   One interesting point I know is that in kenpo we are taught to all ways keep our hands up but our palms turned in during a known knife fight.  This covers some of the arteries in our wrist.  You can take a cut on the forearm and not bleed out. Even if those tendons were cut on your forearm you would still be able to close your hand to punch or whatever; you just can't open it. (You guys can let me know your opinions but I'm pretty sure I'm right.)


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## KenpoTex (May 19, 2008)

While I've trained in kenpo for several years, I remain unimpressed with the knife and gun defenses taught in the system.

For knife defense, I use the Red-Zone system and for knife offense, I use a mix of "SouthNarc's" Reverse-Edge Methods and some of Kelly McCann's stuff (based on Bob Kasper's Kni-Com system).


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 19, 2008)

In IRT we train with everything and anything.  Basically anything that is considered a tool.


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## kenpofighter (May 19, 2008)

Kenpo has only about five techniques or so in the whole system.  It is definably not a knife based system.  Anyone who _really_ wants to learn knife defense sadly is not going to find it in kenpo. I have seen Al Mclucky work a little with knives doing systema. It's pretty cool, but you would have to be really good to feel comfortable to be able to do what he does.  Kenpo does not do a bad job when it comes to stick, club, storm...attacks though.


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## Steel Tiger (May 19, 2008)

We traditionally have five weapons.  The sash or rope (this is generally a defensive weapon, attacks being carried out against subdued opponents in the form of binding); the knife, the beggar stick (FMA people will be familiar with that one), the rod or staff (about 1m long), and the pole or spear.

The essentially Chinese knife and beggar stick work we do has been supplemented through my teachers study of Black Eagle escrima as these are the most common weapon types we consider we would run into in the normal course of things.


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## Drac (May 19, 2008)

kenpofighter said:


> Does your self defense system train with knives or for knife attacks. What different weapons do you and your system train with. Being in kenpo, myself, we mostly train with sticks(clubs, storms), knives(lances), and guns(rods). I think these three weapons cover a wide variate of what an attacker might find or have out on the street.
> 
> (MT guys and girls ideals?)


 
We do knife defenses as well as  Dan Bong ( short stick) and Cane..


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## championmarius (May 19, 2008)

My root is in Kenpo, not too much help on the weapon work there, unfortunately, unless you *really* get into the esoteric and theoretical stuff, but thats a discussion for another day...
A great many day spent wandering through the works of the classical European Maestros, such as Liberi and Talhoffer have exposed me to the joy of working both with and against blades of a great variety of lengths from the short dagger to the espada longa... as well as the more exotic stuff like staves, spears and pole-arms. (Good times!)
I dabbled in the FMA for a while, as well as dabbled in Silat.
My closest friends say I have an unhealthy addiction to knives and training with them. I say, to understand how to defend against a tool, one must first learn how to use it.


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## kenpofighter (May 19, 2008)

I remember when one of my instructors cut them self with a kitchen knife right above the thumb (we had a kitchen in our karate studio) while washing dishes.   I remember being shown and seeing the vein pumping blood.  And being left with no instructor at all (I was a much lower belt at the time).  Another time one of my instructors was playing with a knife behind the desk during a class; at the end of class I was told he went to the hospital to get stitches.


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## Deaf Smith (May 19, 2008)

Sure. My Glock and Smith 642 work very well with knives. 

You have to understand there is alot of difference between a knife fight and a stabbing, or even a couple of people, one with a knife, doing a game of tag.

A knife fight is a duel. Very very rare for it to really happen. A knive .vs. H2H fight, does happen but actually not all that often.

Stabbings? Oh yea, they happen real often. Usually the victim didn't even see the knife coming. The attacker conceals it up to the moment they use it. It may have started out as a punching/grapping afair and then when one got the better of the other, the guy being plastered pulls their knife and gigs the other one.

Keep this in mind when you practice knife defense. Most stabbings are suprises to the one stabbed and not at all like the dojo or 'West Side Story'.

Deaf


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## tellner (May 19, 2008)

I do Silat. Weapons are integral. We mostly do the knife, the one handed sword, and sticks. There are others like the cabang (kind of like a sai), but that's for later.


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## MahaKaal (May 20, 2008)

My system focuses on the use of an array of Indo Persian Weapons, from Katars, Pesh Kabz, Kukri, Tulwar, Double Handed Khanda, Sheilds, Spears, Axes etc.  Western knives are also used too.  Teaching is based around offensive use of weapons and defensive use, to disarms, using attackers knife against him, multiple attacks with weapons, unarmed vs weapon, weapon vs weapon, weapon retention, weapon drawing etc.

Below is a pic of some of the weapons from our school


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## tellner (May 20, 2008)

MahaKaal said:


> My system focuses on the use of an array of Indo Persian Weapons, from Katars, Pesh Kabz, Kukri, Tulwar, Double Handed Khanda, Sheilds, Spears, Axes etc.


Very, very kewl. I've always wanted to learn some of these. 

A lot of them make sense. The Katar, straight sword, various curved Tulwars, regular knives, Pesh Kabz , axe, and spear all have analogies. My first Silat teacher gave some instruction in the Kira. If I can ever get my friend to organize what he knows about the Yataghan and teach it the Sosun Patah and Tulwar-hilted Kukri will probably make sense. 

But some of them like the spiked rings, the Haladie, and especially the Kora are just plain outside my experience. How do you make their peculiarities into advantages? What were they designed for? And last and not least, do you know of anyone in the Northwest part of North America who teaches these weapons?


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## MahaKaal (May 20, 2008)

The &#8220;spiked rings&#8221; are called Jamdhar Karas, these are worn on the wrists and used in hand to hand combat, the spikes are used to hit marma vital points and to apply pressure to soft tissue areas.

The Haladie is a parrying weapon essentially, held so that it runs parallel to the forearm and not as a Katar, as how most people would assume.  It is an evolved version of the Maddu parrying shields which would be a small bucker and antelope horns protruding from the sides.

The Kora comes in two types, the top is either called &#8220;Hathi Kaan&#8221;, elephants ear, or Chand, moon.  The sharp inner edge would be used to decepatate, but the difference comes in the top.  Elephants ear would be used to smash and break through armour, more as a bludgeoning weapon, whereas the Chand Kora (the ones in the pics) would be used to catch hands and cut them off, and pinning against the throat.

The use of these is hard to explain, we are currently in the process of settin up a website so that should have some videos on there showing use of a wide arrange of weapons.


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## MahaKaal (May 20, 2008)

In regards to learning, there are hardly any teachers of true Indian Battlefield martial arts that I am aware of, my teacher has been practising for 25 yrs, his teacher has now past away, his teachers colleagues Baba Ranjit Singh and Baba Raam Singh who were accomplished swordsmen have also past away.  When my teacher had finished his learning, he sought out other masters of the art, unfortunately they are very rare. The ones who do claim to have knowledge of the art, do not have complete knowledge to battlefield level, formation fighting, skirmish fighting, strategies of breaking ranks, forming ranks, classical penthras (footworks and forms), and the knowledge of the mythological history is also not found amongst them. Luckily we have audio and video of these masters, written texts of strategies and relationships of techniques with the martial texts.

As time has gone by, times of peace and the introduction of guns, Indian swordsmanship has truely gone underground.  As mentioned in my introduction thread, we are currently going through a revival phase, and hope to bring back the art to its true glory.

Currently the only teacher of this art resides in the UK with a number of classes taking place on a weekly basis.  When other students get to the level the teacher wants, then the classes will hopefully branch out.  There are many Gatka schools around in North America, these are exhibition Sikh martial arts, they are not true to traditional Hindu/Sikh battlefield arts.

(sorry for taking the thread off topic)


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## kenpofighter (May 20, 2008)

Don't worry your not off topic! That is really cool!


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## arnisador (May 20, 2008)

Yes, I'm enjoying reading about this!


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