# Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled models



## Rich Parsons (Jan 26, 2010)

Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled models 

...

The Japanese automaker said the sales suspension includes the 2009-2010 RAV4, the 2009-2010 Corolla, the 2007-2010 Camry, the 2009-2010 Matrix, the 2005-2010 Avalon, the 2010 Highlander, the 2007-2010 Tundra and the 2008-2010 Sequoia.

Note: Toyota Matrix and Pontiac Vibe are the same vehicle built from the NUMMI plant in California. I thought all production of Pontiac Vibes were cancelled early on, but if someone owns one please be aware. 



> WASHINGTON &#8211; Toyota Motor Co. said Tuesday it was suspending U.S. sales of eight recalled models to fix accelerator pedals that stick, the latest quality problem to confront the world's No. 1 automaker.
> 
> The "stop sale" involves a significant portion of Toyota's fleet and some of its most popular vehicles, including the Camry and Corolla. As part of the plan, Toyota is halting production at five manufacturing facilities for the week of Feb. 1 "to assess and coordinate activities." There are 2.3 million vehicles involved in the recall, which was announced last week.
> 
> ...


 
From: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100127/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall


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## Carol (Jan 26, 2010)

Don't ask me why stuff like this sticks in my head, but I seem to recall Flying Crane mentioning that he bought a Vibe a few years back.  I'll PM him to make sure he sees this thread.


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## blindsage (Jan 27, 2010)

Yeah, they were originally saying there was no problem, then they said it was very limited, now it's HUGE!  Crap, I bought an '09 Corolla.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2010)

Recall doesn't effect Scion or Lexus brands.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2010)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-US-sales-halt-deals-apf-3442272931.html?x=0

Another Article that talks about stop sale and stop build of the vehicles in question.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Recall doesn't effect Scion or Lexus brands.


 
As seen in this other post: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1262346#post1262346

The Lexus brand has complaints against it so there may be some additional future fall out as well.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2010)

Damn American made junk. Who was on a smoke break when that part went through the plant?


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 28, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Damn American made junk. Who was on a smoke break when that part went through the plant?


 
Here is the question we are asking within our business:

Toyota uses part and has problems.

Other companies use part and do not have problems. 

What is different?

I will tell you the software controls strategy and how it is implemented is the first difference I can think of. 


Plus using the same part does not really mean the same part. I had a Japanese supplier that was majority owned by Toyota, and they stated that it was the same part that was used by Toyota. In reality the base transmisison was the same, but the electrical solenoids and pressure manifold was modified drastically and they wrote their own software.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 29, 2010)

An Update: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100129/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall



> Toyota finds fix for gas pedals; update due Friday
> 
> By TOM KRISHER and KEN THOMAS, AP Auto Writers Tom Krisher And Ken Thomas, Ap Auto Writers &#8211; 51 mins ago
> DETROIT &#8211; Toyota Motor Corp. has told employees that it has figured out how to fix a problem with sticking accelerator pedals and will brief them on the details on Friday.
> ...


 

I have not found any referrence to their proposed fix being made public or timing.



Although it looks like the trouble is not over yet:


> A second House committee, meanwhile, is launching an investigation into the problems with Toyota's accelerator pedal systems. The House Oversight and Government Reform Committee has scheduled a Feb. 4 hearing entitled, "Toyota Gas Pedals: Is the Public at Risk?"


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2010)

On a positive note at least now I am happy my wife and I didnt buy the Camry last summer

It could have been worse, at least they admitted there was a problem eventually. Back when Chrysler bought jeep I was a mechanic for a dealership that sold Jeep and Chrysler was big on silent recalls. They would not tell the customer there was a problem they would just fix it when the customer dropped it off for routine maintenance. And one of those problems was an issue where the Jeep Cherokee would shut off while making a right turn... and you could not restart it.


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## Carol (Jan 29, 2010)

So far this year I've rented a Chevy Malibu and a Ford Focus, and both have impressed the heck out of me.  They handled well, ran well, and managed rough weather well.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 29, 2010)

The Toyota plant where they make Corollas is 10 minutes away from where I live, I bought one of them a few years back. OK car, though Ive had to replace a bloody computer module about 4 times so far..Honestly I dont see it as any better or worse then the VWs, GMs, or the Chryslers Ive owned. I find I have the best luck with Fords. 

I will give Toyota credit, when was the last time you seen such a huge company bend over backwards, stop selling a product and do everything it can to fix a problem? Mircosoft never does it, neither did Chrysler, or a dozen other companies anyone can name.

Finally a company that acts like an adult.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2010)

My family were die-hard Ford people.
2 of 3 dealerships that screwed me were Ford dealerships (both now long gone).
3rd was an indy.
Worst car I ever owned?  Ford Taurus and a Mercury Sable.
Best Car I ever owned? Ford Tempo and a Mercury Topaz.
Most durable car? Chevy Cavalier.

We buy exclusively Toyota now though, because the fuel efficiency has shown to be better than US cars we've looked at. Because the dealership we go to has gone above and beyond to earn our loyalty. Because so far, we've had less headaches with the Toyotas than any US made car.

Your mileage will vary of course.


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## Ken Morgan (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My family were die-hard Ford people.
> 2 of 3 dealerships that screwed me were Ford dealerships (both now long gone).
> 3rd was an indy.
> Worst car I ever owned? Ford Taurus and a Mercury Sable.
> ...


 
The best cars have ever owned have been a Ford Mustang and a Ford Areostar. 
Worse, a VW Jetta. (Though I did love my GTI).

Many of the Toyota cars are made in North America, so while the company owners are Japanese the cars are made in Canada and the USA. With a huge number of parts made by local suppliers. I've got many friends who work at the Toyota plant, years ago they were all treated very, very well, these days with all the cut backs, not so well.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 29, 2010)

*Toyota president 'sorry to have made customers uneasy' *


*STORY HIGHLIGHTS*


Toyota's president  apologized Friday for the recall of millions of vehicles
It was  Akio Toyoda's first remarks since the latest round of recalls began  last week
Eight models of cars have been recalled in the U.S.,  Europe and China
http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/01/29/japan.toyota.apology/index.html?hpt=T2


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 30, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> On a positive note at least now I am happy my wife and I didnt buy the Camry last summer
> 
> It could have been worse, at least they admitted there was a problem eventually. Back when Chrysler bought jeep I was a mechanic for a dealership that sold Jeep and Chrysler was big on silent recalls. They would not tell the customer there was a problem they would just fix it when the customer dropped it off for routine maintenance. And one of those problems was an issue where the Jeep Cherokee would shut off while making a right turn... and you could not restart it.


 
Toyota is known for this in the industry today. They send out a coupon for a low priced oil change. The customers come in, and the Service writter tells the customer there are a couple of bulletins out for there vehicle and they just happen to have the parts in stock and could fix it for them today. Of course the fix is free. (* This is a real big clue that you are getting recall work done *)


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 30, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> My family were die-hard Ford people.
> 2 of 3 dealerships that screwed me were Ford dealerships (both now long gone).
> 3rd was an indy.
> Worst car I ever owned? Ford Taurus and a Mercury Sable.
> ...


 

Bob, have you looked recently in the last couple of years. GM, Ford and Hyundai all have comparable vehicles that get as good or better fuel economy. Also check Consumers reports form last year on articles for fuel economy. They had a couple of articles, one stated one should use the sticker fuel economy to buy a car. The other one stated that GM then Ford was the closest to real world fuel economy to what was reported on the sticker. (* in essence they did not have a vehicle that ran great only on the federal test procedures for fuel economy *). Toyota and Honda were actually some of the biggest differences from real world to reported sticker fuel economy. 

Also in Model Years 2009, there were fuel economy changes that GM lobbied for that used more tests that when weighted and averaged gave the sticker number that represented as close to possible as the real world. GM and Ford once again had the least amount of effect or changes in their product. 

Note: As I tell people, if you have a great local service center or people that take care of you this is great and it makes sense to buy a vehicle from them. If you sit in a vehcile and it just fits perfectly to your body, then this is another reason to buy the vehicle. If it just looks ro comes in a color that is unique to a manufacturer then that is also a valid selection criteria. But if you start to quantify your purchasing decision with objective data and subjective data as I mentioned above, then doing some research and getting educated is a good thing.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 30, 2010)

The dealership we buy from also has Ford, GM, etc branches, all highly rated for service and not selling you stuff you don't need. The Toyota one actually told my grandfather he didn't need an expensive repair he thought he did, and has done several little things when asked at no charge.   I almost bought a Saturn 2 yrs ago. Liked the car, but didn't have like it was the last year for the model.  

My basis is, reliability, fuel efficiency and comfort, as well as cost. Usually look in CR for info on them as well as check the car forums for comments. Then I quiz my uncle who works for Audi.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 30, 2010)

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Toyota-Shows-How-Giants-usnews-3989832353.html?x=0&.v=1




> Toyota Shows How Giants Stumble
> 
> Rick Newman, On Friday January 29, 2010, 2:18 pm EST
> At General Motors, they used to call their surging competitor "Mr. T," as if intimidated by a muscular rival who seemed able to seize market share at will. But Toyota suddenly looks pretty meek, thanks to a mystifying safety problem that has led to a huge recall, an unprecedented production shutdown, and an ugly dent in a once sterling reputation.


 
This is news to me. While I do not travel in the circles of the board of directors, none of the Executive Directors I know or talk to or Global Chief's or the couple of VP's I have had contact with, have called Toyota Mr T. I wonder where their source got this info?



> Recalls aren't unusual. Here's what normally happens: The owner gets notified of the recall and brings the car to a dealer, where the problem is fixed in a day or two with no charge to the customer. But this recall is more confusing and far more draconian than usual.


I have not been able to find the data, but as I stated before the only real reasons to issue a recall before a solution are known are for safety of the owners, which Toyota has claimed is not the issue and the rate of complaints is rising to 4% of the volume sold. So the company issues the recall before the NHTSA issues the recall for you with them directing how it is executed. 




> For one thing, Toyota announced the recall before there was a fix in place, so dealers didn't even know what to do if you brought them the car. Toyota implies that most of the recalled vehicles can still be driven safely,


See above for reference



> but it also offers these instructions for people who feel their car might have a sticky gas pedal: "The vehicle should be driven to the nearest safe location, the engine shut off, and a Toyota dealer contacted for assistance." Beyond that, Toyota has also issued some _Dukes of Hazzard_ style maneuvers drivers should use if they're cruising along and the pedal does, in fact, stick, such as shifting into neutral or turning off the ignition (but don't take the key out!). Do they teach that in driver's ed?


 
Most auto engineers know the above instructions. Put the vehicle into neutral and turn the engine off. Many of the general population that deals with cars knows this. But understress, thinking about this when one has not thought about it before can be difficult as evidence o the 911 call of one of the Toyota acceleration crashes. (* See http://consumerist.com/2009/10/toyo...rash-due-to-gas-pedal-stuck-on-floormats.html and for audio http://abclocal.go.com/wabc/video?id=7017760 *) The statement about not taking the key out is so you do not remove the key and turn it all the way back and thereby locking the sterring column in position currently is. Even when it is turned off you may have a Manual feel on the steering but it is critical to keep the steering capable for the vehicle to get it off the road safely. 




> ...
> The sales and production stoppage suggests an even bigger problem, with lots of legal liability. Toyota has stopped selling or building eight models, including the Camry, Corolla, and RAV 4, which represent more than 50 percent of its sales. That will cost Toyota millions, maybe billions, of dollars. It already ranks near the top in the annals of corporate meltdowns, and it's not necessarily over.


 
This is something I have been thinking about myself. If the above says it is worn and used pedals, then why is it a problem for new vehicles unless there is something else or bigger that could be a problem. 

I know EPA can fine a manufacturer for building a vehicel with a known issues of significant failure or problem or not meeting requirements. I do not know if NHTSA can fine them for vehicles built or sold with such a known problem or not. 



> GM, meanwhile, is poaching Toyota customers with special financing and other incentives, along with cars that go the speed you want them to.


 
The Dealers (* Independantly owned by law *) approached GM and asked for incentives as they had customers with Toyota products that wanted out of their current choice. 

Ford also is offereing incentive to Toyota owners as well. 


The thought is that the delers would take posession of the vehicles and hold onto them until Toyota offered a fix, and then they would have them fixed at Toyota's cost and resold to the public. 

I have no idea what the resale or trade in on these vehicles currently are. 



> How did this happen? Toyota itself may not even know yet, and it could take months or years for the full story to develop. But Toyota's dramatic comedown isn't as sudden as it might seem. Some industry-watchers feel the saga has been building for years and may even have been inevitable.


 
It could take a long time to get the absolute fix or known causes. There might be a serious of "fixes" as they research and find things they can fix. This would be more costly to roll out in more than one version, but it reduces risk with each fix implemented. 

Also the melt down on this case can be tracked back with online articles for LATimes and other news reporting sources for almost 10 years. But I think the author is referring to a more general meltdown, and one can see it as the number of vehicle configurations increased and their total volume increased. It is not as easy as GM and Ford have made it look for years.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 1, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> Toyota halts US sales of 8 recalled models
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
Per: http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...l/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Jan/0129_vibe



> Amid the media attention over the Toyota recalls for possible unintended acceleration that include the Pontiac Vibe, many customers are wondering whether it is safe to drive their 2009 and 2010 models of the Vibe.
> 
> 
> Based on GMs experience, the Vibe is safe to drive.
> ...


 

At this time there are no reports of Pontiac Vibe with such a condition as an unintended acceleration for MY 09 & 10. 

I would believe that the Toyota Matrix (* Built at the same plant as previously mentioned *) is on the list for having the same part for the pedal assembly. But as I do not ahve any data about the Matrix, I cannot speak to that.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 2, 2010)

Per: http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...l/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Feb/0201_vibe



> *GM Tests Show Vibe Brakes Can Stop Unintended Acceleration*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
General Motors has tested two Pontiac Vibe small SUVs and found the brakes stop the vehicle in case of unintended acceleration.


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## KELLYG (Feb 2, 2010)

Xue,

There is a difference between a Recall and a Service Action.  A Recall is federally mandated by NTSB (usually a safety issue) and a Service Action is a problem that the manufacture sees and agrees to take care of with out any intervention via NTSB.  The silent recalls you mentioned usually fall into the Service Action category and usually have no bearing on the safety of the automobile and can be handled at the vehicle's next service appointment.  

Stop sales are not all that uncommon, most are just handled at the dealership while the car is in inventory and awaiting to be sold. They required to be completed (by law) before the vehicle can be sold. 

The problem with the Toyota Recall situation is the shear volume of vehicle requiring the recall.   The failure rate is probably still very minute in relationship to the vehicles that fall in to the Recall category.  Then I also understand that if your car fails who cares about the % of failure rate. 

I think that Toyota will as quickly and safely as possible fix all of the vehicles that require the updated parts and in my opinion is being ernest in its efforts to resolve this to everyones satisfaction. I think that Toyota is the only car brand that I can remember that has apoligized publicly for its mistakes. 

FYI I do not work for Toyota.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 3, 2010)

LaHood says don't drive recalled Toyotas til fixed

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100203/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall



> WASHINGTON  Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood is telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving the vehicles and get them fixed.
> 
> LaHood's warning came Wednesday in testimony before a House Appropriations subcommittee on transportation. LaHood says his advice to owners is to "stop driving it. Take it to a Toyota dealer because they believe they have a fix for it."
> 
> ...


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## KELLYG (Feb 3, 2010)

According to AP 11 mins ago
WASHINGTON  Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood now says he misspoke when telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving then.
Instead, LaHood says take them to dealerships to get them repaired.
LaHood told reporters it was "obviously a misstatement" when he told a House panel earlier Wednesday that he would advise owners not to drive recalled vehicles. The remark came during testimony to the Appropriations subcommittee on transportation.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 3, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> LaHood says don't drive recalled Toyotas til fixed
> 
> Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100203/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall


 


KELLYG said:


> According to AP 11 mins ago
> WASHINGTON &#8211; Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood now says he misspoke when telling owners of recalled Toyotas to stop driving then.
> Instead, LaHood says take them to dealerships to get them repaired.
> LaHood told reporters it was "obviously a misstatement" when he told a House panel earlier Wednesday that he would advise owners not to drive recalled vehicles. The remark came during testimony to the Appropriations subcommittee on transportation.


 
Yes the link has the updated corrrection.

I am a little disappointed at this situation

1) Secretary LaHood Mispsoke in the first place
2) Yahoo changed it's article and did not have a new updated URL, so now people like me who quoted it look bad. This is very poor professionalism by 
if you ask me.


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## KELLYG (Feb 3, 2010)

I thought it was kinda weird.  You are usually right on point!!!


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 3, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> Xue,
> 
> There is a difference between a Recall and a Service Action. A Recall is federally mandated by NTSB (usually a safety issue) and a Service Action is a problem that the manufacture sees and agrees to take care of with out any intervention via NTSB. The silent recalls you mentioned usually fall into the Service Action category and usually have no bearing on the safety of the automobile and can be handled at the vehicle's next service appointment.


 
I am not sure what you would call it today but 23 years ago Chrysler told its newly acquired Jeep dealerships it was a silent recall and that customers did not need to know about it, when a Cherokee came in just change it. And a wire harness replacement is not a small deal and shutting off in traffic after a right turn can be a rather big safety issue. It gave me a whole lot of material to give the Chrysler mechanics in the shop a hard time... I was on the VW side of the shop
 
And I just realized DAMN I'm old... I'm talking about something from 23 years ago and I was a working adult then....sheeesh I'm a geezer


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 3, 2010)

Just to show I was not crazy:

per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_bi_ge/us_toyota_recall



> WASHINGTON  Americans should park their recalled Toyotas unless driving to dealers for accelerator repairs, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood warned Wednesday  then quickly took it back  as skepticism of company fixes grew and the government's probe expanded to other models in the U.S. and Japan. Questions now are being raised about the brakes on Toyota's marquee Prius hybrid.


 
This first line says it did happen, now let us hope they do not change it again. Then no one will trust anyone.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 3, 2010)

Rich,
  Did you post the article by Steve Wozniak or did I see that somewhere else?


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Rich,
> Did you post the article by Steve Wozniak or did I see that somewhere else?


 
I was going to post it, and I might have. Now you have me thinking. 

I have a few mroe to post this morning and one fo them relates to the Steve Wozniak Brakes on the Prius.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2010)

Per:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100204/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

I will add in some comments of mine inbetween some highlights/


*Toyota says Prius had brake design problems*



> By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer  39 mins ago
> TOKYO  Toyota acknowledged design problems with the brakes in its prized Prius, adding to the catalog of safety woes at the Japanese automaker as it reels from massive global recalls involving faulty gas pedals.
> 
> Toyota Motor Corp., which Thursday reported a $1.7 billion profit for last quarter, said it had corrected problems with the antilock brake system in Prius models sold since late last month, including those shipped overseas.
> ...


 
Toyota with the above statement has admitted there is a problem. 



> Whether a recall is necessary for the Prius was still undecided, according to Toyota executive Hiroyuki Yokoyama, but the transport minister urged the company to consider it and is ordering an investigation.


 
The Japanese Government is investigating a recall for the Prius Brakes




> When the car moves on a bumpy or slippery surface, a driver can feel a pause in the braking when the vehicle switches between the traditional hydraulic brakes and the electronically operated braking system, he said.
> 
> The brakes start to work if the driver keeps pushing the pedal, but the driver may momentarily feel they aren't working, he said.


 
Perception and feel are tricky and difficult to get right for multiple countries and cultures. But if the brakes do not hold the vehicle then that is a different condition. 



> A major Toyota dealership in Tokyo said the automaker had informed dealers that Prius brakes can sometimes fail to work for less than a second but it had not told owners.


 
Here a dealership has stated that the Manufacturer Toyota has admitted that the Brake System on the Prius can fail. Even though it says for just a second, it will be very difficult for a jury to ignore that it could fail for a short period or a second of time. I could see the accidents and juries not understanding the physics or timing involved. Note: I am not defending nor attacking Toyota only making a personal comment.




> Despite snowballing problems with quality, Toyota reported Thursday a $1.7 billion profit for the October-December quarter, citing healthy sales of its green models including the Prius, and predicted it would return to profit for the fiscal year through March.
> 
> Toyota shares tumbled on the Tokyo Stock Exchange, falling 3.5 percent to close at 3,280 yen ($36) after plunging 5.7 percent the previous day. Since Jan. 21, when the U.S. recalls were announced, the stock has lost about 22 percent.


 
It looks like Toyota is seeing a small impact to the "value" of their stock based upon recent issues. 



> Toyota senior managing director Takahiko Ijichi defended the automaker's quality standards.
> "We have not sacrificed the quality for the sake of saving costs," he said. "Quality is our lifeline. We want our customers to feel safe and regain their trust as soon as possible."


 
This is a Good Company response. No one would want to admit to anything but this. 




> Toyota is expecting to lose 100,000 in vehicle sales because of the recall fallout  80,000 of them in North America.


 
Out of a 10 to 11 million unit sales expected for the current Model Year sales in North America this would be 0.73% of the total market share they have lost. I think Toyota was expecting around 22% market share which would be 3.3% of their sales as a loss. I believe this loss is for all their recent issues not just the Prius Brake Issue. 




> The tarnishing of the Prius nameplate is also a serious setback for Toyota's recovery from the global auto slump.


 
This is very True. Toyota had plans to make all their Hybrids use the Prius as a Brand name, versus Toyota Highlander Hybrid, it would be the Prius Highlander. Or at least that is what is being rumored around the business. 

I agree this would be a major setback to the name of Prius.




> The automaker has received 77 complaints in Japan about braking problems for the Prius. Separately, the Japanese government confirmed 14 complaints. About 100 complaints over Prius brakes have been filed in the U.S.


 
77 complaints in Japan. 

100 in US. 

To me this shows the perception issue and how many of the existing Toyota owners will go out of their way to ignore a problem and not make it an issue for their beloved auto manufacturer. But that is something I have been arguing for a while, with no real data to prove. So take that with a grain of salt. 



> At least one accident has been reported in Japan suspected of being linked to faulty braking. In that accident, in July 2009, a Prius crashed head on into another car, slightly injuring two people, according to the transport ministry.
> Toyota had looked into that accident and concluded there were no problems with the Prius.


 
Once again a standard response I would expect. As what would the reasonable average person do with the system. 




> U.S. lawmakers who are now digging into the recalls say they would look into the Prius.


 
When ever the US government gets involved it never looks good.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2010)

per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100203/ts_csm/277999


*
Toyota recall: Are sticky gas pedals the real culprit?

*




> ...
> Electronic defects may also have contributed to the problem, say investigators and independent safety experts. Federal safety regulators have begun an investigation into Toyotas electronic throttle control system, which connects the accelerator pedal to the engine via sensors that send electric signals, rather than a mechanical cable.
> 
> Its not just sticking gas pedals, says Byron Bloch, an independent auto safety expert. Toyota, which does a pretty good job in many ways, made a bad decision when they went to electronic throttle control. They should have adopted more safety measures and they didnt. And their customers and company are suffering as a result.
> ...


 
Independant investigators have stated there is a problem with the ETC (* Electronic Thorttle Control System *). these are the same independant organizations that Toyota raves about when they have good things to say about their products and company.



> Doubts about causeBut a recent investigation by the Los Angeles Times also casts doubt on Toyotas decision to blame sudden acceleration on the gas pedal defects.
> 
> Motorists have to date lodged more than 2,000 complaints of sudden acceleration in Toyota and Lexus vehicles over the last decade, according to the Times report. The problem has led to 19 deaths and 815 vehicle crashes since 1999, as well as global recalls numbering in the millions.
> 
> ...


 
Seven investigation in 8 years is a lot. If this was anyone but Toyota there would be press coverage of there is a problem somewhere, it just has not been found yet. Once again personal opinion on this. 



> Moreover, the maker of the faulty gas pedals, Indiana-based CTS Corp., claims that its product has been unfairly blamed.
> 
> The problem of sudden unintended acceleration has been reported to have existed in some Lexus vehicles and Toyota vehicles going back to 1999 when CTS did not even make this product for any customer


 
I also think CTS ha been thrown under the bus as we say locally. IN particular if you look at products that do not have their part and the common between them and other pedal suppliers is the control strategy for ETC.



Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20100203/wl_csm/277758

Toyota recall: Chinese see lessons for own firms with tainted products



> By Peter Ford Peter Ford  Wed Feb 3, 10:09 am ET
> Beijing  For once, the tables are turned.
> Toyotas recall of 75,000 vehicles from Chinese drivers is a reversal of the normal pattern of unsafe Chinese goods being withdrawn from foreign markets.
> 
> ...


 
THis is bad when Toyota is being compared even slightly to Chinese issues and bad products and recalls.


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## KELLYG (Feb 4, 2010)

Rich,

Good info! 

 I had a couple of ideas about the current Toyota deal.

1. They are going to recall appx 2.3 million vehicle's in North 
   America.  2,300,000 x .5 (appx time it takes to repair) x $100.00 (guess  on average market labor per hour sold= 115,000,000 that will be divided among all the dealers in North America.  According to Wikipedia there are currently 1447 dealers in north America.  This Nets to about $80,000.00 in additional revenues per dealership.  How about that for stimulating the economy.  

2. If most automobile manufactures in US are owned/backed by the government, then the more hype directed at Toyota the better for the US auto makers?


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 4, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> Rich,
> 
> Good info!
> 
> ...


 
1) Yes it could be stimulus to certain part fo the economy, but it also could be a total negative for sales for Toyota or for all automobile maunfacturers. We have to wait and see, how the public and the customers react. 

2) 
a) GM is mostly owned by the Federal government, and partially by the Canadian Federal Government, and the Ontario Government. The federal Government trade loans for percent ownership as did the the other two governments. 

GM has made a loan payment in December and the CEO has stated numerous times in the press that GM plans on paying back the rest of the outstanding loans with a target of June of this year which is way ahead of the scheduled payment plans. 

The Federal government would have to look at when GM would go public and offer an IPO to look at regaining the rest of their monies back. On the short side it would seem like it would be beneficial. But Ford and other stocks have not done more then follow market trends where Toyota has taken a hit. So it seems to be a short term negative on stock price for Toyota. 

As to the US Federal government, it was not Congress but the previous President and the current sitting President that authorizes the use of TARP monies for loans. Congress did get upset with the North American Automakers and are still not really thrilled with them. As they issue press reports that they have lost monies on the bail out of the Automakers and the Banks. Note they list the Automakers first, so people have a target. But as stated, they will get all loan monies back that are still loans and have the chance to make money on the share of the company they own. Also it is Congress that is looking into the Toyota as well as NHTSA (* which is their job *) and not the President or previous President who were the ones who authorized the monies. 

b) Chrysler also had some loans and some other parts of the deal with the Fiat buyout. I do not know the details as well as other than a tax payer it does not directly effect me. 

c) Ford did not take any monies from the US Federal Government, they did leverage all the assests of the Ford company and the Logo as well as many assets of the Ford family. So while they are in debt up to their necks they owe nothing to the Feds.

d) Yes, I work for GM and I am presenting data in the media. Why? I constantly hear about the perfection of Toyota and no one believes me when I say otherwise. Hear are reports for over a decade that there has been problems. I wish no one would have ever gotten hurt. I wish that no one would have ever gotten into an accident. But, I am presenting data from respectable news agencies to show that Toyota is not perfect and I can offer my insights into why they are catching more problems now.
 i) Total Complexity and number of variations of vehicles. 
 ii) Total Volume, there is a saying that with lots of volume the costs go down, but this is not always true. Many times the volume has an efficiency level and if it crosses a threshold new lines and new tooling is required and now the total cost actually goes up. 
 iii) As stated before CARB and other government agencies have given them a pass or concentrated on the "larger" North American Manufacturers even when those same Larger sales companies may not have been the largest volumes in their state. While it does not excuse anyone from breaking a legislational requirement, perception is that some are better than others, but if only a certain group is inspected for something and the other group is not inspected. Then the perception is that one is better than the other, when one could be worse than the other but if never inspected how can they be caught. Same inspection and same treatment is all I would ask. 
 iv) Japanese companies have some special benefits, in Japan one can not own a vehicle over 5 years old (* Caveat on US Military bases this rule is exempt *). They also have import taxes on imports. If we talked about equality, they should have no import taxes or we should tax them. Which is actually why they built plants in the US in the first place. To avoid these duties as in the late 80's and early 90's there were some on trucks. 
If the US market had to buy a new car every five years and the other companies had duties that made them non cost effective then the US manufacturers would be sitting pretty. I believe the US was number one and Japan was in the top three. China in 2009 claimed the number one spot. But still to close out a market from competitors and then claim those companies that have the protection as being stronger is just not knowing the truth of the situation.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 5, 2010)

Per; http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100205/us_nm/us_toyota_recall_customers

Toyota dealers court customers to soften recall



> By Tim Gaynor Tim Gaynor  Fri Feb 5, 8:02 am ET
> PHOENIX (Reuters)  Toyota dealers across the United States began repairs of defective gas pedals on Thursday, hoping that extended hours, free oil changes and complementary rental cars can help restore the automaker's tarnished reputation with customers.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 5, 2010)

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100205/ap_on_bi_ge/toyota_recall

Toyota chief apologizes for global recalls



> By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer  20 mins ago
> TOKYO  Toyota's president apologized Friday for the massive global recalls over sticking gas pedals as the automaker scrambles to repair a damaged reputation and sliding sales.
> 
> But Akio Toyoda, appointed to the top job at Toyota Motor Corp. last June, said the company is still deciding what steps to take to fix brake problems in the popular Prius gas-electric hybrid.
> ...


 


> Toyoda, 53, said the company is setting up a special committee he would head himself.
> 
> It would review internal checks, go over consumer complaints and listen to outside experts to come up with a solution to the widening quality problems.
> 
> "I offer my apologies for the worries," he said. "Many customers are wondering whether their cars are OK."


 


> Masaaki Sato, an auto industry expert who has written books on Toyota and its Japanese rival Honda, said Friday's appearance was the company's last chance to keep the situation from worsening.
> 
> "He should have come out a week ago," Sato said of Toyoda during an appearance on a popular late night news program following the press conference. "After all the foot dragging, he was pushed into a corner."
> Sato also criticized Toyoda for having to be prodded into action in the U.S. by Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, who called the Toyota president for talks.
> ...


 


> There is also top level government concern in Japan about Toyota's quality fiasco.
> 
> Transport Minister Seiji Maehara has urged Toyota to consider a recall for the Prius brake problem. The transport ministry oversees recalls and other auto regulation.
> 
> Foreign Minister Katsuya Okada expressed concern about the impact of the gas pedal recalls on Japan-US economic ties.


 
This shows the Japanese government no just the US governement is concerned and investigation the situation. 

and yes it does effect Lexus as well


> Toyota is also investigating possible brake problems with its luxury Lexus hybrid and the Sai compact sedan, both of which use the same brake system as the Prius. Toyota has not received any complaints about the Lexus HS250h and the probe is to ensure safety, it has said. The Sai is not sold outside Japan.


 


> Toyota did not have a fix for the problem at the time, and it is relatively unusual to announce a recall without a plan for a remedy. Toyota did not come out with a fix for more than a week, further frustrating customers. It also suspended sales and production on eight models in the U.S.
> "It would have become even harder to win back the trust of customers, and the damage to the Toyota brand would have been greater," Sasaki said solemnly. "It was hard but in hindsight I am grateful to Mr. LaHood."


 
So Secretary LaHood is now thanked for his actions.


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## KELLYG (Feb 5, 2010)

Rich,

I like yourself have worked or am working in the Automotive industry. I know that Toyota's are not perfect-nor are they as perfect as they commonly  perceived-even before the current bout of recalls. I understand that, basically speaking, all cars are machines made-operated-designed and repaired by men.  Any time men and machine get together anything can happen!


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 5, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> Rich,
> 
> I like yourself have worked or am working in the Automotive industry. I know that Toyota's are not perfect-nor are they as perfect as they commonly perceived-even before the current bout of recalls. I understand that, basically speaking, all cars are machines made-operated-designed and repaired by men. Any time men and machine get together anything can happen!


 

Kelly I know my diatribe may have seen personal I did not mean it such. I meant it as another chance to educate the general population. That it is not an even playing field the inspections are not the same, the expectations are not the same, and the media is biased. For many years Wards would place a push rod from GM in the top ten engines for design and or quality, but all the writers would only comment that GM did not have a DOHC or did not have a DOHC on the list. Comments like 19th century technology still being used, unable to update to new technology.

To me I find it kind of refreshing to see comments such as Did Toyota use enough Security systems? 

But, the reports I am getting out of Japan are not so good. The general population believes that GM started negative rumors to effect their their beloved Toyota's stock. Then they extended it to the Federal Government who owns the largest share of GM now wants all other companies to fail. Comments and reports like this make me a little upset, as the Japanese have protected their companies and made it impossible to have competition. 

So, with reports of the Japanese government looking into it and their Ministers thanking our Secretaries and asking for an investigation is refreshing. 

I did not make the comment to upset you nor to anger you. It was not my intent. 

Thank you for your comments.


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## FieldDiscipline (Feb 6, 2010)

They were discussing this on the radio the other day, and all these people were phoning in with their advice for when it happened.  Some really dangerous ideas amongst them.  If you take the key out in a panic, in the fast lane of a motorway and the steering lock comes on you've got an even bigger problem.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 6, 2010)

FieldDiscipline said:


> They were discussing this on the radio the other day, and all these people were phoning in with their advice for when it happened. Some really dangerous ideas amongst them. If you take the key out in a panic, in the fast lane of a motorway and the steering lock comes on you've got an even bigger problem.


 
Which is why the Offical Toyota release that was in one of the articles linked in stated to turn the engine off but not to remove the key.


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## KELLYG (Feb 8, 2010)

RICH,

No worries bud!   I work for a manufacturer that is often compared to a (Toyota) like product. I understand where you are coming from and I did not begin to take anything personal.  If I accidentally led you to that conclusion my bad>


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 8, 2010)

KELLYG said:


> RICH,
> 
> No worries bud! I work for a manufacturer that is often compared to a (Toyota) like product. I understand where you are coming from and I did not begin to take anything personal. If I accidentally led you to that conclusion my bad>


 
Kelly,

If it is AW, they are partially owned by Toyota. And I have worked with tehm as a supplier in the past, although the parts I was getting were all made in Japan. From what I have seen none of the companies are worse than others. just a different face to the same internal politics of people.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 8, 2010)

per: http://media.gm.com/content/media/u...l/content/Pages/news/us/en/2010/Feb/0208_vibe


*Repair Parts Shipping to Dealers in Vibe Recall*



> Repair parts for the sticking accelerator pedal condition in the Pontiac Vibe will begin being shipped to General Motors dealers this week (Feb. 8).  Letters to Vibe customers will be mailed Feb. 16 with instructions to contact their Pontiac dealer after Feb. 22 to have a precision-cut steel reinforcement bar inserted into the accelerator pedal assembly. The installation will take about 30 minutes but customers may need to leave their vehicles with dealers for a longer period of time.
> 
> 
> 
> Customers will receive a second letter when a remedy is available for the recall covering floor mat interference with the accelerator pedal. For now, customers are urged to take out any removable floor mat and place it in the trunk of the Vibe and not replace it with any other mat. Customers who choose against taking out the removable floor mat are encouraged to check the operation of the accelerator, brake and, if applicable, the clutch pedals to assure the floor mat does not interfere with them.


 

My problem with this is that parts have already been shipped to Toyota Dealerships. if GM did it the otherway around there would have been press saying GM did it this way to harm their partner in manufacturing.


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## Carol (Feb 8, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> Bob, have you looked recently in the last couple of years. GM, Ford and Hyundai all have comparable vehicles that get as good or better fuel economy. Also check Consumers reports form last year on articles for fuel economy. They had a couple of articles, one stated one should use the sticker fuel economy to buy a car. The other one stated that GM then Ford was the closest to real world fuel economy to what was reported on the sticker. (* in essence they did not have a vehicle that ran great only on the federal test procedures for fuel economy *). Toyota and Honda were actually some of the biggest differences from real world to reported sticker fuel economy.
> 
> Also in Model Years 2009, there were fuel economy changes that GM lobbied for that used more tests that when weighted and averaged gave the sticker number that represented as close to possible as the real world. GM and Ford once again had the least amount of effect or changes in their product.
> 
> Note: As I tell people, if you have a great local service center or people that take care of you this is great and it makes sense to buy a vehicle from them. If you sit in a vehcile and it just fits perfectly to your body, then this is another reason to buy the vehicle. If it just looks ro comes in a color that is unique to a manufacturer then that is also a valid selection criteria. But if you start to quantify your purchasing decision with objective data and subjective data as I mentioned above, then doing some research and getting educated is a good thing.



The Chevy Equinox looks like a darn impressive car.  An SUV with over 30MPG that is NOT a hybrid?  :asian:

I've been mulling over whether to keep my CR-V for another year or to trade it in for something new.  If I do trade it in, I'll definitely be taking taking a closer look at that one.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 8, 2010)

Carol said:


> The Chevy Equinox looks like a darn impressive car. An SUV with over 30MPG that is NOT a hybrid? :asian:
> 
> I've been mulling over whether to keep my CR-V for another year or to trade it in for something new. If I do trade it in, I'll definitely be taking taking a closer look at that one.


 
Carol,

When you go looking, and if you are considering a GM product contact me and I will see if there are discounts I present to people who currently own a non GM product. 


The CR-V you have is not a bad product, and the newer ones have made improvements as all manufacturers do over time. But, the Equinox is something of a lessons learned case. The Global Chief Engineer for the vehicle took the learnings we had on a Saturn VUE Hybrid pacakge (* Not released to public with the proposed sale and then closing of Saturn *) as well as learnings from other programs. We were able to place a lot of things together in a realtive quick and nice pacakge to launch that product. It kind of reminds of the late 90's when GM pretty much didnot offer a 4 cylinder in their small cars like Grand Am as the V6 was as good or better fuel economy. They had optimized the power to weight ratio and do some good work. Of course within a year or two the 4 cylinder was back beating the V6 for fuel economy with learnings from all programs and development of that program.


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## Carol (Feb 8, 2010)

Rich Parsons said:


> Carol,
> 
> When you go looking, and if you are considering a GM product contact me and I will see if there are discounts I present to people who currently own a non GM product.
> 
> ...



Thank you for the info!

Rich, I would appreciate that very much if you would take a look.  As of now, I am officially in the market...I'd like to consider the Equinox and/or the GMC Terrain.  :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 9, 2010)

Back to topic

Per: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/toyota_recall



> By YURI KAGEYAMA, AP Business Writer Yuri Kageyama, Ap Business Writer  30 mins ago
> TOKYO  Toyota says it is recalling about 437,000 Prius and other hybrid vehicles worldwide to fix brake problems  the latest in a string of embarrassing safety lapses at the world's largest automaker.


 
It is good to see Japanese Press printing articles like this. 



> "I don't see Toyota as an infallible company that never makes mistakes," President Akio Toyoda said at a press conference Tuesday in Tokyo. "We will face up to the facts and correct the problem, putting customers' safety and convenience first."


 
This is very important. Toyota could not move forward as in the Japanese business Culture if the superiors did not accept the responsibility. Otherwise everyone would be looking to follow the existing process and spending time showing they followed the process. This is very important for them to be able to get the solution be it Mechanical or Electrical totally resolved and to the public in the shortest amount of time. 




> With the Prius announcement, the number of vehicles recalled globally by Toyota Motor Corp. has ballooned to 8.5 million, including for floor mats which can trap gas pedals and faulty gas pedals that are slow to return to the idle position. The 2010 Prius wasn't part of the earlier recalls.


 
8.5 million vehicles effected recently. This is not unique as other OEM's of the same volumes in the US have had large recalls before as well. No one likes them. No one wants them.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 9, 2010)

Per: http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/02/08/toyota.recalls/index.html?hpt=T2



> *Toyota recalls may not solve problem, experts say *
> 
> By *Drew Griffin*, *David Fitzpatrick* and *Steve Turnham*, CNN
> February 8, 2010 9:32 p.m. EST
> ...


 
Safety experts in the field are not convinced it is Mechanical only or the major portion.


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## Carol (Feb 9, 2010)

The Mass. Insurance Commissioner has temporarily expanded the appeals process for drivers that have been found at-fault, or appealed with a decision of fault, due to a recalled Toyota.  Massachusetts-insured cars only.


http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=ocaterm...alcontent&f=advisories_Toyota_Alert&csid=Eoca


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