# Defense against round punch



## Orion Nebula (Mar 18, 2019)

About 15 - 16 years ago, I studied a style of karate that used some aikido-like defenses and throws in addition to the typical strikes and blocks of karate. The dojo also had an aikido class on Wednesday nights. 

There is a particular move I learned that I am trying to remember. Because it was so long ago, I can't remember if it was in the karate class or aikido class. It was a defense against a round/hook punch. The idea was to sort of catch the arm with two hands and redirect it in a circular motion. I think it then involved turning and stepping under the opponent's arm, which then put you in the position to throw them forwards. However, it's all very hazy and there were several defenses that worked similarly. 

Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have a link to a video demonstrating it?


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## Gweilo (Mar 18, 2019)

Hapkido has similar techniques to Aikido as they are born from the same place, the throw you discribed sounds like a figure 4 throw in Hapkido, however there are several step under the arm and throw techniques some with the butterfly catch. I dug through my old vids (it was some time ago) and the videos I have are analogue and crap quality, there are plenty on you tube, but be careful there are plenty of mickey mouse nut jobs on there.


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## jobo (Mar 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> About 15 - 16 years ago, I studied a style of karate that used some aikido-like defenses and throws in addition to the typical strikes and blocks of karate. The dojo also had an aikido class on Wednesday nights.
> 
> There is a particular move I learned that I am trying to remember. Because it was so long ago, I can't remember if it was in the karate class or aikido class. It was a defense against a round/hook punch. The idea was to sort of catch the arm with two hands and redirect it in a circular motion. I think it then involved turning and stepping under the opponent's arm, which then put you in the position to throw them forwards. However, it's all very hazy and there were several defenses that worked similarly.
> 
> Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have a link to a video demonstrating it?


possibly a good thing its hazy, catching punches is a bit Hollywood,  avoiding them at all is difficult


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## seasoned (Mar 18, 2019)

Okinawan GoJu has similar throw as is the case with all well rounded traditional arts.


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## Orion Nebula (Mar 18, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Hapkido has similar techniques to Aikido as they are born from the same place, the throw you discribed sounds like a figure 4 throw in Hapkido, however there are several step under the arm and throw techniques some with the butterfly catch. I dug through my old vids (it was some time ago) and the videos I have are analogue and crap quality, there are plenty on you tube, but be careful there are plenty of mickey mouse nut jobs on there.



Thank you! I hadn't thought to look to Hapkido. It wasn't a 4 figure throw, but was very similar to what's going on in this video, minus the kick:






That also helps me remember more of how it was done. It began with something like a knife-hand block but then directed the arm downwards and across, as if you were drawing a big circle in front of you. While doing this you take hold with both hands and proceed to step under and throw like in the video. Thanks for the help!


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## Martial D (Mar 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> About 15 - 16 years ago, I studied a style of karate that used some aikido-like defenses and throws in addition to the typical strikes and blocks of karate. The dojo also had an aikido class on Wednesday nights.
> 
> There is a particular move I learned that I am trying to remember. Because it was so long ago, I can't remember if it was in the karate class or aikido class. It was a defense against a round/hook punch. The idea was to sort of catch the arm with two hands and redirect it in a circular motion. I think it then involved turning and stepping under the opponent's arm, which then put you in the position to throw them forwards. However, it's all very hazy and there were several defenses that worked similarly.
> 
> Does this sound familiar to anyone and does anyone have a link to a video demonstrating it?


Learn to weave and high cover and save yourself some time. /2c


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> catch the arm with two hands and redirect it in a circular motion.


The "cover hand" is suitable for that situation.

Your opponent uses hook punch at you.

- You put one hand on his wrist and another hand on top of his elbow joint.
- You press down his elbow joint.
- You keep moving back 90 degree from his body line and take him down.


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## jobo (Mar 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> Thank you! I hadn't thought to look to Hapkido. It wasn't a 4 figure throw, but was very similar to what's going on in this video, minus the kick:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that's a slow motion off target punch that he leaves hanging for an awful long time, whilst the guy get hold of it. use full if your 3ver attacked in slow motion. less so with a normal speed on target punch


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## Martial D (Mar 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> that's a slow motion off target punch that he leaves hanging for an awful long time, whilst the guy get hold of it. use full if your 3ver attacked in slow motion. less so with a normal speed on target punch


Seriously. That will never work against even mild resistance.

But it's cool looking.


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## jobo (Mar 18, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Seriously. That will never work against even mild resistance.
> 
> But it's cool looking.


E specially if you " attacker" jumps in the air


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## Martial D (Mar 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> E specially if you " attacker" jumps in the air


Or if he doesn't sit there with his arm extended as an offering

Or if he uses his other hand..for anything.

Or if he takes one step forward.

Or if he keeps punching(with either or both arms)

Or if he changes levels.

Or if..he does anything but stand there like a dufuss.


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## Orion Nebula (Mar 18, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Seriously. That will never work against even mild resistance.
> 
> But it's cool looking.



I'm not really concerned about whether or not it works. I'm just trying to remember something. I doubt I'd ever use in in real life, but it is fun to throw and be thrown in such a manner in class. Is it a waste of time to learn to do something that isn't practical? Maybe, but there's plenty of other things in the martial arts that aren't practical for the street.

However, I do suspect the technique in the video would work well with a good kick to the groin. Most guys react poorly to relatively gentle hits to that region. Then again, the groin shot would probably be enough to end the fight and allow you to get the heck out of there.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 18, 2019)

I recall seeing a mention of something similar, but not in relation to karate or hapkido if i remember right.

Seen some things in film as well.

Cant really remember details that well.



I also conjured up something different than what you described in my head.     (just saw the video)

Pretty interesting.


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## Orion Nebula (Mar 18, 2019)

Rat said:


> I recall seeing a mention of something similar, but not in relation to karate or hapkido if i remember right.
> 
> Seen some things in film as well.
> 
> ...



Well, it doesn't help that I wasn't really sure that I was even remembering it right. It's hard to describe something when you're not even sure what it looked like  And yeah, definitely lots of that sort of thing in films.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> I'm not really concerned about whether or not it works. I'm just trying to remember something. I doubt I'd ever use in in real life, but it is fun to throw and be thrown in such a manner in class. Is it a waste of time to learn to do something that isn't practical? Maybe, but there's plenty of other things in the martial arts that aren't practical for the street.







This move in Chinese wrestling is called "*飄(Piao) - Floating hand*". All Chinese wrestlers know it's a beautiful demonstration move. You just don't see that move be used on the mat.

Life is too short to be wasted in some non-effective techniques training. First you have to be able to detect it.

Let me add this clip in just for comparison. You don't have to move under your opponent's arm. You can apply the same throw by staying on the right side of your opponent as well. Even that, it's still a nice "demonstration" technique if your opponent knows how to flip.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Mar 18, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Life is too short to be wasted in some non-effective techniques training. First you have to be able to detect it.



To be honest you dont know anything is effective on the street for yourself, until you have to do it.    And then if you survive such a engagement, you need to be able to find a place to replace the teaching you have found to be ineffective. 

Given some martial arts lines have a few people who taught it who have seen war and actually killed people, then MANY years of deviation and change, with mixed teachers seeing war and using the techniques to kill people and all that etc.  


Rambly response to it, excuse that.    Its difficult, then add in survivor bias, and bias in general.  

Like those people who claim vertical punching doesn't work, well its worked for a long time and does, or other forgotten/uncommon techniques.  (maybe because they dont want people leaving to go learn older techniques and methods which can still be viable)


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2019)

[/QUOTE]

What's the difference between these 2 clips?

In the 

- 1st clip, he moves under his opponent's right arm. His opponent's left hand can attack him.
-  2nd clip, he stays on the right side of his opponent's right arm (the right side door - blind side). His opponent's left hand cannot attack him.


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## Gweilo (Mar 19, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>



What's the difference between these 2 clips?

In the

- 1st clip, he moves under his opponent's right arm. His opponent's left hand can attack him.
-  2nd clip, he stays on the right side of his opponent's right arm (the right side door - blind side). His opponent's left hand cannot attack him.[/QUOTE]
,  The problem with the 1st video is the receiver on countering with a shovel kick, which should have been the right leg in Hapkido, which led to there being too many steps due to incorrect footwork. And as pointed out it has all the bad habits a rehearsed routine, executed properly, would it work on the street, once in a blue moon against an experienced fighter, but I don't think people should be discouraged from learning a technique that interests them, because others have no interest.
Orion learn what you want, just because the video you shared does have questionable technique,  does not mean throws like this will not work.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2019)

Rat said:


> To be honest you dont know anything is effective on the street for yourself, until you have to do it.    And then if you survive such a engagement, you need to be able to find a place to replace the teaching you have found to be ineffective.
> 
> Given some martial arts lines have a few people who taught it who have seen war and actually killed people, then MANY years of deviation and change, with mixed teachers seeing war and using the techniques to kill people and all that etc.
> 
> ...



Not really.

The idea would be showing the technique working live and consistently. And assuming it might work in the street.

And if you are going to set up a toolbox for the street work on the theory that you will have half the time and twice the difficulty.

Any move that relies on stories rather than practical evidence is suspicious.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 19, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Any move that relies on stories rather than practical evidence is suspicious.


Any move that when you make many moves while your opponent only makes 1 move is suspicious. 

Most of the time, when you make 

- 1 move, your opponent will respond with 1 move.
- 2 moves, your opponent will respond with 2 moves.
- ...

After the kick, he made 3 steps. There is no way that his opponent couldn't do anything in that period of time.


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## Gweilo (Mar 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> which should have been the right leg


Sorry left leg


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 19, 2019)

Gweilo said:


> Sorry left leg


Agree! One less step is always better.

It's OK to move 3 steps when you are in your opponent's side door,. It's risky to move 3 steps while you are in your opponent's front door.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 19, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> I'm not really concerned about whether or not it works.


Here are 2 moves that only take 1 step to take your opponent down. Will it be better to spend your training time to train those moves instead?


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## Orion Nebula (Mar 19, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This move in Chinese wrestling is called "*飄(Piao) - Floating hand*". All Chinese wrestlers know it's a beautiful demonstration move. You just don't see that move be used on the mat.
> 
> Life is too short to be wasted in some non-effective techniques training. First you have to be able to detect it.
> 
> Let me add this clip in just for comparison. You don't have to move under your opponent's arm. You can apply the same throw by staying on the right side of your opponent as well. Even that, it's still a nice "demonstration" technique if your opponent knows how to flip.



This floating hand technique in your clip looks almost identical to what I was taught years ago. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are 2 moves that only take 1 step to take your opponent down. Will it be better to spend your training time to train those moves instead?



Honestly, I'm not going to be training any of these moves because I'm not working on throws and takedowns right now.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Seriously. That will never work against even mild resistance.
> 
> But it's cool looking.








Why do I feel they have just explained Aikido?


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