# Womens SD Classes



## MJS (Nov 11, 2008)

Many schools teach them.  Short courses designed to give women a small taste of SD.  The material taught probably varies from inst. to inst.

So, you've been given the task of teaching a SD course for women.  The people attending range in age from high school age girls to college age, from 30yo females to people in their 50's and 60's.

List at least 5 things (more can be listed if you choose  ) that you would teach and why you would teach them.  What types of scenarios/training tools would you use?


----------



## MBuzzy (Nov 11, 2008)

I've thought a lot about this question because I'm interested in these types of courses.  I know that I don't have the best answer....but...

I would start off by teaching a bit on pressure points/vulnerable parts of the body.  Then follow that up with a bit of striking, open handed strikes, basic kicks, jabs, all capitalizing on the vulnerable areas discussed earlier.  Also do some real hitting on bags and pads.  I would think that part of striking for someone with no MA experience would be just the sensation of actually hitting and following through.
Then I would go to some basic same side wrist grab defense.  Just to teach the very basic idea of joint locking and how and why it works.  Maybe a few different applications of where it would work.
I would then teach a rear bear hug defense, since that is one of the most likely real world grab situations.
Last, I would go with a ground defense, i.e. defender on the bottom, attacker on top.  To simulate the situation where a women has been knocked down and a larger sized opponent is no top of them.

I know that move pretty fast through techniques, but with only 5 things, those are the ones that I would choose.  This would probably take the better part of an hour, after making corrections, teaching it slowly and letting them practice.

Now if I did have more to teach and a longer time, I would get into a little more depth.  I may expand the wrist grab section to do cross wrist and same side, but using the same idea to stay on topic.  I would also do a one handed and a two handed lapel grab if someone were grabbed by the shirt.  I may consider a hair grab defense from in front and behind also.


----------



## hpulley (Nov 11, 2008)

I assume this self defense course would be for against random attacks.  The curriculum would be very different for domestic situations.

First, I would teach them not to go places where it is dangerous.  This is the easiest way to avoid trouble.

Next, I would teach them to be alert at all times.  Don't walk with your iPod headphones in and your head down looking at the ground.  You may be attacked or run over by a car (or a falling helicopter as you can't hear a darned thing with loud headphones on).  Hands out of the pockets, head up.

Once they are looking alert I would teach them to look confident, like they are not someone to be messed with.  Easier prey will be chosen instead.  Walk confidently, look strong and agile.

If they are attacked, getting help is very important so tactics about making noise to attract attention are good (some say "F I R E" gets better attention than "R A P E") and may thwart the attack without the need to physically defend yourself.  Dropping something recognizable like a glove or a scarf is also a good tactic if you think you will be abducted.  Damaging the outside of their car is also very useful.

If this is their only seminar then discussing armed attacks I'd only note that they need to use their intuition to decide if they are going to be killed or not.  If they feel they are going to be killed then they should fight back with everything they have, down to fingernails and biting but otherwise it may be best to cooperate if only their money or car (WITHOUT THEM IN IT) are being stolen.  IMO there isn't time in a short seminar course to teach useful knife or gun defense; take-aways take a lot of training and confidence to work in real life.

After all that I would teach them the standard front groin kick, eye attacks, throat attacks, knee attacks, rear elbow attacks, bear hug defence.

I don't see value in teaching them ground defense.  If they are on the ground in a secluded area they may need to escape but that should be a rare situation and honestly with a weight disadvantage there isn't much more you can do that the previously mentioned vital area attacks, making noise so you are noticed, etc.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2008)

Simple stuff

Not joint locks or complicated take downs or things that take hours and hours of drills to get. 

I tend to have a problem with most Woman's SD classes because they tend to teach stuff that there is no way in hell in a panic situiation they are ever going to remeber or get right since many of these woman's SD classes amount to no more than 6 classes usually less. 

Strikes to soft tissue 
heel strikes to the top of the foot
use of keys for sd
If you absolutly MUST teach something to attack joints go for fingers
step on the knee
kick to the groin
RUN is a very good option


----------



## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 11, 2008)

Hpulley hit it on the nail!!

K.I.S.S.=keep it simple stupid is the best method.

Since you may not have alot of time to teach you want high percentage damage and the ability to deliver.

I would say strikes to Throat,Temple,Nose,Eyes,Knee and under chin.


----------



## morph4me (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm assuming that this is a one time self defense class or a series of very short sessions, so I'd concentrate on very basic, simple and effective things.

I would teach them the importance of being assertive and aware of what's going on around them and not appearing to be a victim in search of a predator. I would spend alot of time on that. What to look for when going to their cars, how not to act in public. I would teach them how to attract attention to themselves and hopefully, get people to actually pay attention and do something about it.

I would teach them that self defense is ugly and try to give them the correct mindset to do what they have to do.  I would identify a minimum number of targets that are easy access and provide the best chance of getting away basically eyes, throat, groin, knees, and the best way to attack them for maximum results. I would keep physical techniques to a few and drill them alot. I would also make sure that I had something they could actually hit, so they understand what it feels like to hit something.


----------



## KenpoTex (Nov 11, 2008)

Eye-attacks-simple, require very little strength to be effective (I favor the "face smash"...similar to the tiger-claw from WWII Combatives).
Hammer fists-low risk of injury to the user, can be used for a variety of targets and can be augmented with just about any small object (pens, flashlights, etc.).
Knee-strikes-simple, low risk of injury to the user, more stable than most kicks.
Bear-hug escape
Mount escape  


Above all, I would stress situational awareness, avoiding "task-fixation," and preparing oneself mentally to do whatever is necessary to prevail.  I would also stress the need for more training as no seminar is going to give someone an adequate level of preparation.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 11, 2008)

When I teach something like this, I stress avoidance and preparation as much as physical techniques -- including working on actually talking back!  Many women find it difficult to do something that seems simple, like saying "NO" in a way that they mean it.

In terms of physical techniques, I tend to build and reinforce principles throughout.  So, the same motion that starts an escape from a wrist grab might become a block or strike, depending on the needs.  Targets are generally kept simple; eyes, throat, & groin/knees, working on the simple fact that if you can't see, breath, or move, you can't fight.  I avoid techniques that require a lot of fine motor control, end in locks or holds, or require a lot of strength or conditioning to use effectively.


----------



## HKphooey (Nov 11, 2008)

1.  All out or nothing
2.  All out or nothing
3.  All out or nothing
4.  All out or nothing
5.  All out or nothing

Teaching a few simple techniques or a short class will not be enough for anyone to defend themselves, female or male.

Giving someone the false sense of power can be dangerous.  It is like teaching somone to pull a trigger on a gun, but not how to aim, reload, how to use the safety, or how to handle the gun around others.

But, if I had to do a short SD course, I would chose 5-10 basic defense moves.  It would not be in one night or week, but a few months.  

SD starts out with environmental awareness, not techniques.  I would teach the group how to avoid dangerous situations.


----------



## thesandman (Nov 11, 2008)

The first few things any instructor should do before teaching a women's self defense course are:

Read at least 3 books on the subject
Contact local womens shelters and talk to them
Speak to women you know about the kinds of things they are worried about
Attend a few similar courses


----------



## MJS (Nov 11, 2008)

IMO, I think things that are simple and effective and the most important.  My list consists of the following:

Awareness.  When I'm out with my wife, I always comment to her on how much I like to people watch.  Its amazing at how many people are so clueless to whats going on around them.  A few weeks ago while in the grocery store, I see a cart, loaded with food, a purse in the cart, and the woman on the other side of the aisle looking at dairy.  People gabbing away on their cell, instead of paying attention.

While I'm a fan of joint locks, I feel that they're too complicated to grasp in a short time.  Therefore, I'd omit that and add in open hand strikes, hits to effective targets, such as the eyes, groin, clawing/raking strikes, knees and elbows.

Simple escapes from some common attacks would be worked on as well, ie: chokes, wrist grabs, bear hugs, etc.

Kicks would be kept low and consist of things such as instep, ball and stomps.

Ground work IMO is important.  Not looking for a submission, but instead working some dirty fighting into some basic escapes.

Despite how uncomfortable this may feel for some of the women, male attackers would be used for upright as well as ground attacks.  Odds are if they're going to get attacked, it'll be by a male, so may as well get them used to it.  

In addition to using hand held bags, focus pads, etc., a padded suit to allow them the chance to apply these strikes to a moving, live target is important.


----------



## MJS (Nov 11, 2008)

hpulley said:


> I assume this self defense course would be for against random attacks. The curriculum would be very different for domestic situations.


 
That was my primary goal with this thread....use in a street scenario.  However, if someone was the victim of domestic abuse, either by a husband or boyfriend, and the female felt that she was in extreme danger, then I see no reason why she'd have to alter what she did.  Frankly, I have very little sympathy for a man that feels it necessary to beat on a woman, so IMO, if he does, he gets what he deserves.




> I don't see value in teaching them ground defense. If they are on the ground in a secluded area they may need to escape but that should be a rare situation and honestly with a weight disadvantage there isn't much more you can do that the previously mentioned vital area attacks, making noise so you are noticed, etc.


 
Hmm...I may have to disagree with that.  If the goal of the attacker is a sexual assault, then the ground is probably where she'll end up.  Hopefully, she could do something during the initial assault to prevent going to the ground, but if she can't, it'd be better to know something than nothing at all.


----------



## MJS (Nov 11, 2008)

HKphooey said:


> 1. All out or nothing
> 2. All out or nothing
> 3. All out or nothing
> 4. All out or nothing
> 5. All out or nothing


 
Agree 100%.  I think its safe to say that we've both seen people, male and female, who enroll in SD, yet trying to get them to do what you just said is like trying to find a needle in a haystack.  Part of this course is breaking them out of that mindset, and put them into one that is all out. 



> Teaching a few simple techniques or a short class will not be enough for anyone to defend themselves, female or male.
> 
> Giving someone the false sense of power can be dangerous. It is like teaching somone to pull a trigger on a gun, but not how to aim, reload, how to use the safety, or how to handle the gun around others.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed.  I should've been more specific in my OP, as to the length of time for these classes.  In order to get something out of it, it would need to be a) an intensive weekend ie: 8hrs a day, or b) a set amount of days over a period of time, ie: 1-2 days for 1-2 months.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 12, 2008)

thesandman said:


> The first few things any instructor should do before teaching a women's self defense course are:
> 
> Read at least 3 books on the subject


I disagree.  There are very few good books on any sort of self defense, and most of them aren't specific to women's self defense.  Assuming your martial arts training has been realistic and oriented towards real world application, you'll be fine.





> Contact local womens shelters and talk to them


Again, not a reliable or effective source of information.  The problems that lead women to a shelter are not the same ones that will require self defense.  There's overlap... but the women who wind up in shelters almost certainly need a lot more than a self defense class before they defend themselves against the greatest threat to their safety.





> Speak to women you know about the kinds of things they are worried about


Not a bad idea, but do some research accompanying this.  Find out what they're concerned about, and why... and what they SHOULD be concerned about.  For example, statistically, most women are not likely to be the victim of a stranger rape or abduction; it's much more likely to be someone they know who attacks them.





> Attend a few similar courses


This I agree with.  But probably for a different reason than you listed it.  See what people are teaching.  Most of them won't be teaching something useful in a useful manner.

If you're really serious about teaching self defense classes, I encourage you to look for some of the solid programs that use good teaching methodology for the subject matter and the learners, and get certified through them.  If you're just looking to do quickie classes, either as an intro to your program or at the occasional request of community groups, then develop a reliable curriculum.

My wife is currently enrolled in a "self defense" class through her college program, to meet the PE requirements.  The guy started out poorly prepared, and haphazard, but has improved.  But what he's really doing is an intro to his martial arts program, not self defense.  A few articles and notes on avoidance and awareness aren't the same as actually teaching that aspect -- which is where the greater emphasis needs to be.  Self defense is not the same as martial arts; martial arts are not immediately self defense.  And many martial artists, while very skilled at martial arts, are not skilled at all in self defense.


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 12, 2008)

MJS said:


> While I'm a fan of joint locks, I feel that they're too complicated to grasp in a short time.  Therefore, I'd omit that and add in open hand strikes, hits to effective targets, such as the eyes, groin, clawing/raking strikes, knees and elbows.


Joint locks aren't good tactics for self defense; the goal in self defense is not containing and controlling someone.  It's stopping the attack and discouraging pursuit while escaping.

They're great tools in some capacities, but they just rarely fit in self defense.


> Ground work IMO is important.  Not looking for a submission, but instead working some dirty fighting into some basic escapes.


I wholeheartedly agree; basic escapes and defenses from the ground (or equivalently disadvantaged positions, like on a sofa or bed) are essential elements of self defense.  


> In addition to using hand held bags, focus pads, etc., a padded suit to allow them the chance to apply these strikes to a moving, live target is important.



If you're going to do this, take the time to learn to do it properly and with appropriate realism.  Otherwise, it can quickly become an exercise in pounding on the guy in red...  (Incidentally, Red Man or similar suits aren't inexpensive...)  There are several programs available, or you can develop your own with some work and time spent researching simulation training.


----------



## Drac (Nov 12, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Simple stuff
> 
> Not joint locks or complicated take downs or things that take hours and hours of drills to get.
> 
> ...


 



KenpoTex said:


> Eye-attacks-simple, require very little strength to be effective (I favor the "face smash"...similar to the tiger-claw from WWII Combatives).
> Hammer fists-low risk of injury to the user, can be used for a variety of targets and can be augmented with just about any small object (pens, flashlights, etc.).
> Knee-strikes-simple, low risk of injury to the user, more stable than most kicks.
> Bear-hug escape
> ...


 
All *GREAT* suggestions..Awareness would be the *FIRST* topic I or rather Master Steve and myself would cover...


----------



## Drac (Nov 12, 2008)

HKphooey said:


> 1. All out or nothing
> 2. All out or nothing
> 3. All out or nothing
> 4. All out or nothing
> ...


 
I must respectfully disagree...I have shown a few techniques to females over the years and MANY have reported back that they have served them well...




HKphooey said:


> Giving someone the false sense of power can be dangerous.


 
True, but we make sure ALL students understand that they are being shown fragments of the whole, and no matter how good they believe themselves to be there is *ALWAYS *someone better





HKphooey said:


> But, if I had to do a short SD course, I would chose 5-10 basic defense moves. It would not be in one night or week, but a few months.


 
Yes, in the ideal world that would be desireable..I have done classes for where they are shown a few techniques and then its *REPETITION, REPETITION, REPETITION*...



HKphooey said:


> SD starts out with environmental awareness, not techniques. I would teach the group how to avoid dangerous situations.


 
100% truth....


----------



## MJS (Nov 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> If you're going to do this, take the time to learn to do it properly and with appropriate realism. Otherwise, it can quickly become an exercise in pounding on the guy in red... (Incidentally, Red Man or similar suits aren't inexpensive...) There are several programs available, or you can develop your own with some work and time spent researching simulation training.


 
Take a look at this clip from 8:12 on.  IIRC, this is a small snip from what was done at a womens SD seminar, that was also on the news.  Obviously Gina (the girl in the clip and Rons gf) has been training for a while, but the points I wanted to focus on were, a) the suit doesnt look like its anything too complicated, yet its providing some good protection, and b) she is demonstrating some effective strikes, ie: open hand palms/slaps, elbows and knees.   Another clip.  Watch from 3:52.  Same material from the first clip, but this shows a closer view.

However, I agree with what you're saying.  Time does need to be spent on proper execution of the strikes, no matter what they are.  Watch any cardio kickboxing class, and the majority of the time, we see people throwing half *** kicks and punches.  Its stuff like that, that'll result in an injury to the person throwing them.  And you're right, if you get the actual suit, its not cheap.  Of course, this could be used in regular martial art classes as well.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 12, 2008)

Drac said:


> All *GREAT* suggestions..Awareness would be the *FIRST* topic I or rather Master Steve and myself would cover...


 
*"Awareness"* ABSOLUTLY 100% AGREE. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Teach someone to be more aware of their surroundings and they will avoid 1 heck of a lot of problems in the first place and not need to use any SD.


----------



## stickarts (Nov 12, 2008)

I have taught periodic WSD classes for 17+ years. I started with an 8 week course but over time the reality is that most women told me they could not committ for that long of a program so its been scaled down over the years. I think some knowledge is better than no knowledge although its definately important to give the students a sense of what the true dangers are and what their true capabilities are. I define what self defense is and also what students can do to minimize the possibility of an assault. I then give the basics of how to defend yourself if an assault actually occurs. I also give a taste of martial arts as well since some may decide to try this.
I just taught a class of 40 women 2 days ago. Some of the women indicated that they do not even typically lock their doors at night! After our discussion they are going to begin locking doors and install deadbolt locks on their doors and change other high risk habits as well. I would say this class was effective just because of this alone!
Some women go on to join martial arts and some go on to more intensive self defense programs. Also keep in mind some women are intimidated to enroll in a hard core program without having previous experience. A mini course often gives them the confidence that they need, in an inexpensive way, to decide to continue their training further.
I hope this info helps.


----------



## thesandman (Nov 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I disagree.  There are very few good books on any sort of self defense, and most of them aren't specific to women's self defense.



There's actually quite a few really excellent books on this specific subject, many written by top female martial artists and their viewpoint is invaluable.



> The problems that lead women to a shelter are not the same ones that will require self defense.  There's overlap... but the women who wind up in shelters almost certainly need a lot more than a self defense class before they defend themselves against the greatest threat to their safety.



The reason to talk to them is not to teach them, but to hear their stories.  Get a sense for how they feel and what kind of obstacles they feel are preventing them from being safe.  If you haven't spoken to victims of violence against women, you have NO PLACE trying to teach women's self defense.

Teaching a women's self defense class is as much about sociology and psychology as it is about martial arts.  We can't teach women's self defense from a male point of view.  We must have a good understanding of the female point of view before we even think about trying to teach on this subject matter.  Being expert martial artists does not qualify us to understand women.  (if only it were so!)


----------



## trainable (Nov 12, 2008)

Give a woman a fish, she eats for a day, teach her to fish, she eats for a lifetime.   I know, I changed and butchered the context, but this is how I go about it.

I dont spend time teaching techniques.  Techniques need to be drilled and the reps done to be effective.  If you think they will remember in 5 months what you said on a saturday morning about which way the wrist turns, or which way to spin to get out of the headlock you are fooling yourself.

Simplicity is king for a one day course.  Gross motor strikes, high percentile targets, and sound strategy.  You guys have covered all the points.  I would study and know the PINS that Gavin DeBecker outlines in "Gift of Fear", and work that into the intro on awareness.  Its amazing what they will see when they walk out with that knowledge.

I would promote stun and run philosophy, not to get into the deathmatch, but to get away asap.

I would remind them to go towards the lights and noise.

I would train palms, elbows, forearms, knees and stomps.  Add in face rakes and bites, tigers mouth type things that are easy to understand. It looks similar on the ground as it does standing up.  Add the need for viciousness if you are pinned on the ground.  I like to bite!

Closest weapon, closest target.  It keeps them moving under the adrenal rush.  Show them the targets from different angles, let them slowly move through the targets on each other to see how the weapon fits the target, then let them hit the bags with power.  They need to see the elbow strike from the bear hug, they need to see the palmstrike from their back.  It builds a picture for them to visualize success.

Mindset.  What do I stand to lose if I do not survive.  This fuels indignation, rage, and strength.  "I want to see my kids grow up", should lead to "how dare you".....

Pattern interrupt.  Distract your attacker.  Ask a question.  Look quickly offline.  Get him out of the moment while you are about to strike. Even if a rape has already occured, when he goes to pack away his business, reward him for his crime.  Mean it.  M E A N it.

Women are much more likely than men to end up in the deathmatch.  We need to remember this and give them tools they can remember 3 weeks, 3 months, 3 years down the road.  It is our responsibility to give them the best, most useful, non-perishable information and create that mental imprint that will "pop" in the most horrifying of times for them.

Come to think about it now, jack up a few verbal attacks with someone (arrange this, dont just start screaming at someone).  I use a little acting flair with this to make it real.  Afterward ask, "how did you feel when this started happening?".   Not how did it feel, but how did YOU feel.  Go from there and build your clients to survive.

Some great suggestions you guys have made, I will be adding them to my course!


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 12, 2008)

thesandman said:


> The reason to talk to them is not to teach them, but to hear their stories.  Get a sense for how they feel and what kind of obstacles they feel are preventing them from being safe.  If you haven't spoken to victims of violence against women, you have NO PLACE trying to teach women's self defense.


I know just a little bit about violence in the real world, and it's victims.  I know just a bit about the types of attacks that women experience.  I've seen them and their results.  Probably much closer than you.





> Teaching a women's self defense class is as much about sociology and psychology as it is about martial arts.  We can't teach women's self defense from a male point of view.  We must have a good understanding of the female point of view before we even think about trying to teach on this subject matter.  Being expert martial artists does not qualify us to understand women.  (if only it were so!)



An expert martial artist is NOT an expert on self defense.  In fact, many expert martial artists don't have a clue about real self defense or real violence.  You do have a point when you say that some understanding of the fundamental differences between women and men, and their relative victimization, is important -- but it's equally important to understand the real nature of violence.


----------



## thesandman (Nov 13, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I know just a little bit about violence in the real world, and it's victims.  I know just a bit about the types of attacks that women experience.  I've seen them and their results.  Probably much closer than you.



Okay.  I'm not sure why you would assume a more intimate knowledge on this issue, but I don't know your history so I won't argue the point.  Please also realize that when I said "you" I was speaking generally of anyone, not of you specifically.  Please forgive me if you took my statement personally, I meant no disrespect.



> An expert martial artist is NOT an expert on self defense.  In fact, many expert martial artists don't have a clue about real self defense or real violence.  You do have a point when you say that some understanding of the fundamental differences between women and men, and their relative victimization, is important -- but it's equally important to understand the real nature of violence.



I agree on the need for understanding of violence.  I'm not sure I agree with your assertion that expert martial artists don't understand real self defense or real violence.  I would think that would depend on the nature of their style and of their personal experiences.  The only way to truly understand violence is to be involved in real world situations, which I would think most people would be glad to have avoided.

For that same reason, I question the judgment of anyone who is proud of their intimate understanding of real violence short of war veterans.  But I digress, this is about what needs to be involved in teaching a women's self defense class.  I stand by my assertion that real research must be done well in advance of any such undertaking.  This includes grabbing any wisdom that can be gleamed from any of the available resources we have to us.  Book, people, internet, whatever can be thought of.  As instructors we owe to the women who take the step to attend these classes to make sure they walk away from the experience with the tools and motivation they need to truly make themselves safer.  Frightening them with aggression or confusing them with complexity will not work.

To date I have taught 50 or so such courses, ranging from short 2hr seminars to 50+ hour programs and each time I have gone back to every available resource to make sure I'm approaching it with the humility and understanding required.  I believe this has improved my ability to help the women who attend these classes.

I've also found that talking to women who have attended such courses a few weeks after the fact can be of great value.  What kinds of things stuck with them?  What faded with time?  What was really useless?  Every instructor has an obligation to work at improving themselves and their curriculum.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 14, 2008)

I have taught many womans SD classes over the years. Most have been for collage level students with some seniors also. I always started with the thought in mind that I was not trying to enroll them into a class with basics that are geared more toward long term building of foundational concepts. More over I would start with a good working knowledge of awareness of self and your surroundings, also teaching them that an attack on a woman should be taken very serious because of the intention factor involved with female victims. Next I would acquaint them with some weapons at their disposal that can be used fast and easy. A yell, a loud whistle for starters, then on to keys, pens, and pencils for striking to the face area. I never teach a woman to stand and fight but at the first chance to run. If running is not an option early in the attack, then we cover strikes. For ease of remembering, the strikes start high and continue low. I teach that when the arms are in trouble, use feet, and if the feet are in trouble, use hands, so the victim does not waste time trying to pull away something that has been grabbed. I dont waste time on stances, but I do cover keeping the weight low and stay balanced. The areas I teach for strikes are ears, eyes, nose and throat because they are all in close proximity of each other and can be hit with an open hand. I have found that women in a short SD class have an adversity to closed fist hits. Next the flow continues down with solar plexus, groin, knees, and insteps. I feel that eyes are the most important target and should be the main area to go for first. A mugging or attack will happen very fast and that person will move in close and try to overwhelm the victim. My motto in class is stay clam and keep it simple. The use of striking pads are very important, and if possible a red man suit is excellent.


----------



## hkfuie (Nov 15, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I know just a bit about the types of attacks that women experience. I've seen them and their results. Probably much closer than you.
> 
> -- but it's equally important to understand the real nature of violence.


 

Care to share more, jks9199, so I can learn?

Edited to add: Oh, no.  I did not realize that this might be a personal thing.  I took the "you" to be general.  Did not read past jks9199's post before replying.  My question is meant in all sincerity.  I was hoping you could tell me what you know so I can add to my knowledge.   Stephnnie


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2008)

I think there's some great suggestions here but, the very first thing I think you have to do in a womens SD class is to get them ok with the idea of confidently hitting someone. Non MA women will come into the class and be very nervous and possibly anxious. There is a taboo if you like on women fighting and even hitting back, it's not as 'natural' for women as it is men.
I think (and someone has mentioned this) the first thing I'd do is some bag or pad work to get them used to the idea that they can strike and give them some confidence. Learning techniques is no good to them unless they believe *they* can do them. It's fine doing partner drills but they know it's with friends/colleagues/other women whatever. They need things that will give them "permission" to let go and belt someone.They also need to learn not to freeze when hit themselves. Sadly and it sounds awful I know but most SD classes like this don't involve pain! Knowing you don't panic or freeze when struck is the best confidence boost there is, it doesn't mean you're being cocky, it means you're ready to defend yourself using one of the many good techniques mentioned here!


----------



## Drac (Nov 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I think there's some great suggestions here but, the very first thing I think you have to do in a womens SD class is to get them ok with the idea of confidently hitting someone. Non MA women will come into the class and be very nervous and possibly anxious. There is a taboo if you like on women fighting and even hitting back, it's not as 'natural' for women as it is men.


 
Quite true...





Tez3 said:


> I think (and someone has mentioned this) the first thing I'd do is some bag or pad work to get them used to the idea that they can strike and give them some confidence. Learning techniques is no good to them unless they believe *they* can do them.


 
Another excellent paragraph..All the effective techniques in the world will do you no good if they are afraid to use them..





Tez3 said:


> They need things that will give them "permission" to let go and belt someone.


 
I have used things like loudly saying "STOP APOLOGIZING" when a female lands a good solid strike and then says 'I'm Sorry"...





Tez3 said:


> They also need to learn not to freeze when hit themselves. Sadly and it sounds awful I know but most SD classes like this don't involve pain! Knowing you don't panic or freeze when struck is the best confidence boost there is, it doesn't mean you're being cocky, it means you're ready to defend yourself using one of the many good techniques mentioned here!


 
Well said...


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Thank you Drac! Oh the times I've heard women apologise for hitting someone and yes, I used to as well. It still lingers in me sometimes that hurting people is a big no-no. I had a man come into my class the other week,a beginner who knew it all and was being quite superior to me, the female instructor. We ended up grappling and because of his inexperience gave me his back, I put a rear naked choke on and it was clear he wasn't going to tap,my first thought was oh I must let go because I can't hurt him (not an instructor thing a female thing I assure you) the other students (all male) were shouting at him to tap but still he wouldn't, then I thought of my male instructor and whether he'd let go or not, Definitely not I thought so I didn't until he was so weak he had to tap.
This guy was arrogant and if left to carry on would have hurt another student or me,  I felt I had to have confidence in my techniques and stop thinking like a woman who doesn't like to hurt people and stand up for myself. It's that which is the hardest thing to teach and the best thing to learn. Even if you hit an attacker with your brolly or handbag instead of using MA techniques, the thing is to know I CAN AND I WILL stand up for myself.


----------



## Drac (Nov 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Thank you Drac! Oh the times I've heard women apologise for hitting someone and yes, I used to as well. It still lingers in me sometimes that hurting people is a big no-no. I had a man come into my class the other week,a beginner who knew it all and was being quite superior to me, the female instructor. We ended up grappling and because of his inexperience gave me his back, I put a rear naked choke on and it was clear he wasn't going to tap,my first thought was oh I must let go because I can't hurt him (not an instructor thing a female thing I assure you) the other students (all male) were shouting at him to tap but still he wouldn't, then I thought of my male instructor and whether he'd let go or not, Definitely not I thought so I didn't until he was so weak he had to tap.


 
Bravo Tez..



Tez3 said:


> This guy was arrogant and if left to carry on would have hurt another student or me, I felt I had to have confidence in my techniques and stop thinking like a woman who doesn't like to hurt people and stand up for myself.


 
There always seems to be a know-it-all jerk off at every class




Tez3 said:


> It's that which is the hardest thing to teach and the best thing to learn. Even if you hit an attacker with your brolly or handbag instead of using MA techniques, the thing is to know I CAN AND I WILL stand up for myself.


 
Well said...To our friends here that to not speak UK , a brolly is an umbrella...


----------



## Drac (Nov 16, 2008)

Another skill that *MUST* be impressed on females is to *SAY SOMETHING* if someone is bothering you...When I was a bouncer I got to know my female regulars, and impressed upon them that if someone is bothering them to bring it to my attention, and when I approach their table and ask if everthing is OK to point out the offending party..Usually a semi-intoxicated male who just *knew* these ladies wanted his company..


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> Another skill that *MUST* be impressed on females is to *SAY SOMETHING* if someone is bothering you...When I was a bouncer I got to know my female regulars, and impressed upon them that if someone is bothering them to bring it to my attention, and when I approach their table and ask if everthing is OK to point out the offending party..Usually a semi-intoxicated male who just *knew* these ladies wanted his company..


 

This goes with the way women are taught 'not to make a fuss'.


----------



## Drac (Nov 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> This goes with the way women are taught 'not to make a fuss'.


 
I had a formal complaint filed against me by the friend of a female that I was taking a report from...She was being bothered on a public bus..I asked her,"Why she didn't say anything to the driver"..Her friend answered that "They were taught to be quiet"..My response was " What kind of victims mindset is that?"...Ohhh boy, did I catch it...


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> I had a formal complaint filed against me by the friend of a female that I was taking a report from...She was being bothered on a public bus..I asked her,"Why she didn't say anything to the driver"..Her friend answered that "They were taught to be quiet"..My response was " What kind of victims mindset is that?"...Ohhh boy, did I catch it...


 
I've seen women eat unedible meals in restuarants, be overlooked for promotions at work, put up with comments that were insulting and harrassing all because they weren't supposed to make a fuss. There's plenty who will now thank goodness but there's still a way to go.

There's still a feeling around though that if women are attacked for sexual reasons rather than robbery it's somehow their fault. this is another mindset that SD instrucutors have to deal with, that it's not your fault, you don't deserve to be attacked so you are entitled if not duty bound to fight back. You can't have it in the back of your mind that this is your fault if you are being attacked.


----------



## Drac (Nov 16, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> There's still a feeling around though that if women are attacked for sexual reasons rather than robbery it's somehow their fault. this is another mindset that SD instrucutors have to deal with, that it's not your fault, you don't deserve to be attacked so you are entitled if not duty bound to fight back. You can't have it in the back of your mind that this is your fault if you are being attacked.


 
Well said...Another item for would be instructors is NOT put them females with another female that is their size or smaller, especially if it is a co-ed class..I attended one where a very pretty lady asked me to be her partner for the remainder of the day, the instructors had put her with a girl that was 1/2 her size, weight and age..She wasn't learning anything..


----------



## jks9199 (Nov 16, 2008)

Drac said:


> I had a formal complaint filed against me by the friend of a female that I was taking a report from...She was being bothered on a public bus..I asked her,"Why she didn't say anything to the driver"..Her friend answered that "They were taught to be quiet"..My response was " What kind of victims mindset is that?"...Ohhh boy, did I catch it...





Tez3 said:


> I've seen women eat unedible meals in restuarants, be overlooked for promotions at work, put up with comments that were insulting and harrassing all because they weren't supposed to make a fuss. There's plenty who will now thank goodness but there's still a way to go.
> 
> There's still a feeling around though that if women are attacked for sexual reasons rather than robbery it's somehow their fault. this is another mindset that SD instrucutors have to deal with, that it's not your fault, you don't deserve to be attacked so you are entitled if not duty bound to fight back. You can't have it in the back of your mind that this is your fault if you are being attacked.


Changing mindset is one of the hardest things you can do (and it's not limited to females in today's culture here in the US).  And it's one of the most important.  When I teach self-defense, especially with women and kids, one of the things I work hardest on is simply being able to say NO or STOP and mean it.  The coy ******** of "no means yes" needs to be done away with, so that when someone says no -- it means NO.  And nothing else.  And not a giggling, tentative "no", either... but an absolute NO.  

Rory Miller's book *Meditations on Violence* has a lot of good stuff in it about the true nature of violent attacks, and how to prepare for them.  One of the best, in my opinion, is the following:


> *Permission*
> This is something I give my students...​
> Sometimes, I ask, "Why didn't you...?" reach for a weapon, use a preemptive strike, run, call for help...
> 
> ...



(Miller, Rory; *Meditations on Violence*, page 150.)​
I've incorporated this set of permissions -- and giving them to my students -- into my own training.  I encourage everyone to do so -- and to give themselves and their students the explicit permission, even the expectation, that they may do whatever it takes to survive!
​


Drac said:


> Well said...Another item for would be instructors is NOT put them females with another female that is their size or smaller, especially if it is a co-ed class..I attended one where a very pretty lady asked me to be her partner for the remainder of the day, the instructors had put her with a girl that was 1/2 her size, weight and age..She wasn't learning anything..



For initial learning, pairing up students of similar size is good.  However, especially for women's self defense instruction, students MUST try the techniques against someone bigger and stronger.  They must see in the training environment that it can and does work, even against a bigger person, or they won't really trust it.​


----------



## Deaf Smith (Nov 16, 2008)

MJS said:


> Many schools teach them. Short courses designed to give women a small taste of SD. The material taught probably varies from inst. to inst.
> 
> So, you've been given the task of teaching a SD course for women. The people attending range in age from high school age girls to college age, from 30yo females to people in their 50's and 60's.
> 
> List at least 5 things (more can be listed if you choose  ) that you would teach and why you would teach them. What types of scenarios/training tools would you use?


 
1. Teach them awareness. Keeping track of what is going on around them. This includes the color code system, et. al. Jeff Coopers White, Yellow, Orange, Red.

2. Expose them to spotting indicators something is wrong. The other persons demeanor, clinching fist, brushing their hair, looking around while talking, licking their lips, etc... there are many!

3. Show them how to trust their gut instincts that something is wrong and be willing to either leave or fight. Gavin's "The Gift of Fear" comes into mind as a primer on the subject.

4. Teach SD with a emphasis on low kicking, elbows, knees, eye jabs, and all manner of 'dirty fighting' like toe kicks, spitting, biting, groin grabs, ... well you get the idea.

5. Teach them to shoot! Yes shoot a gun. Shoot it well and fast at close range. Even if they don't want to use a gun, they will know what a gun can and cannot do. They will gain respect for the gun and at the same time lose their fear of guns.

Deaf


----------



## Drac (Nov 17, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> For initial learning, pairing up students of similar size is good. However, especially for women's self defense instruction, students MUST try the techniques against someone bigger and stronger. They must see in the training environment that it can and does work, even against a bigger person, or they won't really trust it.


 
Yes I agree....The funniest part of that training is when the Grandmaster looked across the dojang and saw me in the mount position with this pretty lady..."*Draaaaaaaaacccccccccc!!! *he yelled from across the room *" What are you doing to that* *pretty girl?,* he yelled?''..I explained that it would not be a little girl she'd be defending herself against, but some big drunken slob...How will she knows these techniques work if she doesn't practice???


----------

