# Concealed Weapons choices



## Samurai (Oct 12, 2016)

Hello,
I am a teacher and I teach adult students in the evening.  We have had a few times when "unauthorized" people have tried to gain entry into the building (not a big deal now as they were not violent, but I DO NOT allow people in the building at night).  

I am looking for a weapons choice that I can carry in deep concealment and still be armed in a worst case situation.  

In Kansas, USA I can carry a concealed firearm without a permit, so a firearm is an option (I have 4 handguns).  I am not allowed to carry a baton (illegal).  The stick would be a good option since I trained in Kali a few years back...but  the law in Kansas says "NO...I can have a .45 on my belt but not a stick).

Any ideas as to a less than lethal option for self defense weapons?
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Kickboxer101 (Oct 12, 2016)

Sorry but I kind of think you're overreacting some guys came into the building and nothing happened and assuming they left without trouble and you want to pull a weapon on those guys? Say a bunch of teenagers walk in not causing any trouble and some guy pulls a gun on them and threatens them. Sounds wrong to me from your description you have no need to carry a weapon


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2016)

Do you study a martial art?  If so, what belt do you hold?  If you are belted, why would a stick be better that what you have learned in your martial art?  I'm not trying to be snarky.  I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?


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## Samurai (Oct 12, 2016)

Thanks for the grounded.  I am a trained martial artist with over 30 years in various arts....(TKD, Shotokan, Kali. JKD, Systema, and Western Martial Arts ).  I am not 'reacting' to someone trying to come into the school at 930pm.  That is really not the main point.  I had the skills and present of mind to turn this person away with minimal contact and some stern words.  

I am responsible for the safety of 50 students and 4 teachers.  The area this school is in has seen 3 shooting and a stabbing in the last 8 months or so.  I DO NOT want to resort to a firearm, thus my question.  It just seems in Kansas I can have a canon on my hip, but not be allowed to hold a stick in self-defense.  
Thanks again
Jeremy Bays


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 12, 2016)

Can you be more specific about your restrictions on the stick?  Is it illegal to "carry"  or illegal to use in self defense?  I feel you might want to dig into that law a little deeper.


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## Samurai (Oct 12, 2016)

The following is from out state codes.  I was told by a LEO friend that a baton (expandable baton) would fall under the "billy" or "bludgeon" in this code.  I guess having a wooden Escrima stick nearby the door might be ok.  I could use it for some 'other use' like opening a door or something.


K.S.A. § 21-6301 (2012)

(a) Criminal use of weapons is knowingly:

(1) Selling, manufacturing, purchasing or* possessing any bludgeon, sand club*, metal knuckles or throwing star;

(2) possessing with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a billy, blackjack, slungshot, or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character, or a dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument;


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## drop bear (Oct 12, 2016)

Maglight.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 12, 2016)

Seconding the maglight. You can use it however you would a stick, but it is not technically a weapon.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2016)

Samurai said:


> Hello,
> I am a teacher and I teach adult students in the evening.  We have had a few times when "unauthorized" people have tried to gain entry into the building (not a big deal now as they were not violent, but I DO NOT allow people in the building at night).
> 
> I am looking for a weapons choice that I can carry in deep concealment and still be armed in a worst case situation.
> ...


A gun is legal but a baton isn't? It's like I've been telling people.  Martial Arts are deadly baton/stick beats gun in our world.  I'm glad I don't live where you do.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2016)

Samurai said:


> The following is from out state codes.  I was told by a LEO friend that a baton (expandable baton) would fall under the "billy" or "bludgeon" in this code.  I guess having a wooden Escrima stick nearby the door might be ok.  I could use it for some 'other use' like opening a door or something.
> 
> 
> K.S.A. § 21-6301 (2012)
> ...


Throwing stars are cool, I think law makers watched too many ninja movies in the 70's.  They didn't say anything about a staff.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 12, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> A gun is legal but a baton isn't? It's like I've been telling people.  Martial Arts are deadly baton/stick beats gun in our world.  I'm glad I don't live where you do.


Well yeah. With a baton, you can use it to control people and be very malicious. With a gun, the most you can do is kill the person.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Well yeah. With a baton, you can use it to control people and be very malicious. With a gun, the most you can do is kill the person.


 Batons can be very malicious


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## Buka (Oct 13, 2016)

The law says you can carry, you're a teacher and by your writings seem mature, the area has had multiple shootings recently, you have four handguns, my guess is you've had training with them, yes?

I know what I'd be carrying if I were you, and it wouldn't be a fist full of fingers.
Sounds like a no-brainer.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 13, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you study a martial art?



Why yes, I do.



oftheherd1 said:


> If so, what belt do you hold?



I hold a few low-medium Dan ranks.



oftheherd1 said:


> If you are belted, why would a stick be better that what you have learned in your martial art?  I'm not trying to be snarky.  I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?



Because bad guys like weapons. And Chic-Chic-POW beats unarmed combat pretty close to every time.

Skip the stick. If you're allowed to carry a gun, do.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 13, 2016)

I went into a local store here that sells retractable batons and I asked them "are these legal to carry here?" they showed me a little flashlight attachment on the tip and said "this is a retractable flashlight, it is 100% legal" 

Maybe a loophole like this would work out for you if you would rather carry a batan.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 13, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why yes, I do.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I liked the OP's straight forward answer better.    But I can't argue with yours either.


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## Samurai (Oct 13, 2016)

Really people.... I am not here to 'prove' my skills, maturity, or anythings else like that.  If you look at my icon, you will see that I am member number 7...yep, been here a long time, and left because this forum was reduced to a 'chest thumping' group.  

I thought I would ask an honest question and seek honest advise.  I am not looking for lines like "glad I don't live where you live".  Well, I CAN move if I wish, but I happen to like living here.  

I am grateful to the few people that really tried to help with this question.  Thank you!

Now back to lurking.  See you in another 5 years or so
--Jeremy


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2016)

Just because doing this to someone is on my bucket list.


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## SgtMagic (Oct 13, 2016)

Samurai said:


> Hello,
> I am a teacher and I teach adult students in the evening.  We have had a few times when "unauthorized" people have tried to gain entry into the building (not a big deal now as they were not violent, but I DO NOT allow people in the building at night).
> 
> I am looking for a weapons choice that I can carry in deep concealment and still be armed in a worst case situation.
> ...



Hi Jeremy,

I am a certified conceal carry instructor.
Regarding the firearm my recommendation would be the Glock 43 or the Smith & Wesson M&P Shield both are 9mm and both can hold 9 shots. The Glock 43 originally holds 6 +1= 7 shots. But my 43 has a base plate +2 it also holds 9. These two types of firearms are slim and easy to conceal. I am a big guy and I carry a full-size M&P 9mm. 

Regarding your issue of people coming into the property. You have to understand the tactics of keeping yourself safe and keeping yourself from going to jail. 

For us legally armed civilians we must use verbal judo. Meaning give commands to get out and threaten that
Police are on the way. if they don't back off then your decision on two or more person which many states consider as a gang, you can be ready to defend yourself with your firearm, it must be a last resort. Now regarding firearms and martial art, it's not something you want to do when you are carrying a firearm. fighting with your hands when the gun can be taken away is always a possibility so my recommendation is don't put yourself in that situation for hand to hand combat when they now know you have a firearm.

You mentioned school, many states you're not allowed to have a firearm in any school even if you have a CWP.

But regarding your home, I live in Florida and Florida has the Castle doctrine. Which means you're allowed to defend yourself with the firearm in your home if you feel that the person that broke into your home is going to do harm to you or your family.


I hope this helps,

Sgt. Magic


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## Blindside (Oct 13, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you study a martial art?  If so, what belt do you hold?  If you are belted, why would a stick be better that what you have learned in your martial art?  I'm not trying to be snarky.  I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?



Really?  As a tool using primate you should realize just how dangerous other tool using primates may be and that having a tool available to you is a better option than not.


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## Brian King (Oct 13, 2016)

Thanks for the thread.
HIGHLY recommend a strong LED type of small fist size bright flashlight and depending on size of your hands a D or C cell mag light... in addition to which ever handgun you are most comfortable carrying.

Not sure if you have done any work with a light- but the light is a force multiplier from nearly any distance.

I can recommend without any reservations Ken's book (see link below) and any training you could do with him.

https://www.amazon.com/Strategies-Low-Light-Engagments-Ken-Good/dp/1424309131

The book can be found on his web site for much cheaper I believe. I have also seen PDF's floating around the web of his earlier work. 

Good luck.
Regards
Brian King


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Really?  As a tool using primate you should realize just how dangerous other tool using primates may be and that having a tool available to you is a better option than not.



It depends what sort of conflict you are dealing with.  If you have a a bat you can't secure then you pretty much have to hit the other guy with it.  Which can sometimes be an over cooked response.

I am personally not about staving some trespassers head in for no good reason.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 14, 2016)

Blindside said:


> Really?  As a tool using primate you should realize just how dangerous other tool using primates may be and that having a tool available to you is a better option than not.



If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. 

So I take it you have never had training on defense against weapons, or never really practiced it a lot?  In the Hapkido I studied we learned defense against knives and swords, and many could be used against bludgeons/sticks.

But your point is well taken.


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## jks9199 (Oct 14, 2016)

Samurai said:


> Hello,
> I am a teacher and I teach adult students in the evening.  We have had a few times when "unauthorized" people have tried to gain entry into the building (not a big deal now as they were not violent, but I DO NOT allow people in the building at night).
> 
> I am looking for a weapons choice that I can carry in deep concealment and still be armed in a worst case situation.
> ...



I wasn't able to respond over the last few days, though I've followed the thread.  Let's try taking this from a different angle...

What threat are you concerned about?  That might shape your choices.  You say you want a less than lethal option as a last ditch holdout, if I've followed your post properly.  Correct?  Personally -- my last ditch holdout is ME.  My hands, feet, elbows, knees, head...  because in the end, those are things that can't be separated from me, and I can scale the response all the way up to lethal, if need be.  But you still want to be "armed."

OK...  Medium to big length sticks suck as "deep concealment" because they're... sticks.  Rigid, and often nearly as long as a limb or major portion thereof.  At the same time, they can be invisible since stick like objects are all around us all the time.  So that's one plus...  A collapsible umbrella in your bag, with a little planning and maybe some careful shopping for one that holds up to striking (in an emergency) is there "in case of rain" (or maybe, with a wink and a knudge, other emergencies...)  Another option is the "fist stick" -- kubotans and similar objects just barely longer than your fist.  There are entire systems for using them -- and again, they're not that scream weapon.

Have you considered pepper spray?  It's easily available, and can be effective with minimal training.  It's far from a great solution, in my opinion, because it often doesn't do much more than piss an assailant off.

Another option is the Taser Pulse or the Taser Bolt (which apparently repackaged and replaced the C2, though limited C2s may be available.)  I do specifically suggest Taser, not stun guns.  The Neuromuscular Incapacitation effect is exclusive to Taser, and moves them from simple pain compliance "cattle prods" to something that has the potentional to seriously incapacitate an assailant for several seconds.  (I admit some prejudice here; I am a Taser Instructor and have used the CEW successfully in the field.)  But neither are magic wands that work every time.

You've said you're a teacher.  Have you considered ways to harden the facility, like things to let you keep the door from being opened against your will?  Tools to create cover rather than mere concealment in the classroom?  Ways to restrain someone, if necessary?  Some rope and a simple knot can go a long way here.


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## Balrog (Oct 15, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Seconding the maglight. You can use it however you would a stick, but it is not technically a weapon.


Thirding.  A 4 cell Maglite is a wonderful thing.  I also carry the mini Maglite as a keychain.  It does double duty as a kubaton.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 15, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?



Because the other guy gets a vote too, could have a weapon, could be trained, and there could be more than one of them.  Any sane person recognizes that planning to go hand to hand versus having a weapon is a stupid choice for self-defense.


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## Blindside (Oct 16, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
> 
> So I take it you have never had training on defense against weapons, or never really practiced it a lot?  In the Hapkido I studied we learned defense against knives and swords, and many could be used against bludgeons/sticks.
> 
> But your point is well taken.



Honestly, my counter weapons training is world class, I hold a funny sounding rank title in a specialist weapon system known for its knife material, I do full contact weapon fighting with the Dog Brothers for fun. In general I am pretty comfortable saying my knowledge of weapons and counter-weapons is pretty decent. The funny thing is that when training with those subject matter experts, there is a consistent theme, that when off the training floor they are armed with something besides their bare hands.  Why? because they know better than anyone how much being the unarmed monkey sucks.


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## Juany118 (Oct 16, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Do you study a martial art?  If so, what belt do you hold?  If you are belted, why would a stick be better that what you have learned in your martial art?  I'm not trying to be snarky.  I just wonder why you feel you need a weapon if you are a well trained martial artist?



First, Two words, _force multiplier_.  I study both Wing Chun and Inosanto Kali.  Though I don't carry a gun with me anywhere near as much as I used to I always carry an EDC Knife which also doubles as an impact weapon (see Fox DART XT).  Why?  Well as said, you never know if the other guy has a weapon.  Also having a force multiplier (again if legally justifiable) means you can likely end an encounter faster, which means less injury to yourself.  I am even considering starting to carry a compact expandable baton off duty.

As for disarming there are reasons why even cultures with deep Martial Arts traditions equipped their soldiers with weapons   Why?

1.  Even with a short knife you have range over the opponent. So the opponent will be in a no man's land for a time related to the length of your weapon in order to close for the disarm.  This puts you at an advantage.  
2.  Someone properly trained will often go for limbs first, "defang the snake.". Even my HEMA friends study this.  When they compete they go for the head and torso (which is what most unarmed arts disarms assume) in competition BUT only because that is worth more points.  The manuals of HEMA, like FMA, also put a premium at attacking the limbs.

There is a reason most full featured martial arts integrate weapons at one point or another.  They make you more dangerous.  If disarming an armed subject was the answer they wouldn't integrate them.  Here I think is a good, and funny, example...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 16, 2016)

I carry 24/7 in the house, out of the house, etc.  I want multiple tools that I could potentially use if needed for a wide range of threats. 

Personally, the edc I carry are:
Handgun
folding knife
pocket flashlight

This allows me to have light in a low light situation.  Which is always good and on more than a few occasions has saved my lfie or a member of my families life.   A tool to cut and open boxes, etc.  How useful is that.  I open boxes every day so that folding knife sees a lot of activity.  Finally a projectile weapon that I could use to defend myself at a distance.  Having multiple options could allow me to use a lower level of force than a higher level of force.  That is always a good situation as well!


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Because the other guy gets a vote too, could have a weapon, could be trained, and there could be more than one of them.  Any sane person recognizes that planning to go hand to hand versus having a weapon is a stupid choice for self-defense.



I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times.  How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away.  Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns. 

As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon.  You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can. 

I understand a person may encounter an opponent with a weapon.  It has been said here that usually a weapon is pulled as a threat.  I understand that some although they are threatening, may in fact know how to use their weapon.  But they may not be expecting resistance, and that may be to the advantage of the person attacked.  Especially if that person is a trained martial artist.  Assuming of course they choose not to follow the normal advice of giving up whatever they are being threatened for, as is so often stated here in MT.

Of course the above are my opinions only, and need not be accepted by anyone else.



Blindside said:


> Honestly, my counter weapons training is world class, I hold a funny sounding rank title in a specialist weapon system known for its knife material, I do full contact weapon fighting with the Dog Brothers for fun. In general I am pretty comfortable saying my knowledge of weapons and counter-weapons is pretty decent. The funny thing is that when training with those subject matter experts, there is a consistent theme, that when off the training floor they are armed with something besides their bare hands.  Why? because they know better than anyone how much being the unarmed monkey sucks.



I salute your extensive training.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon.  You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.



I disagree, I always carry a knife and a Spikey and I have trained in how to use them to defend myself, I have been involed in a few (3) real self-defense situations one of which involved the other person pulling a knife, in none of these situations did I ever pull my knife or spikey because I didn't think the situations called for them.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times.  How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away.  Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.



Well sure.
If the OP asked "What's the best way to deal with a person trying to enter the school building?" they'd get an entirely different set of answers. 
But that isn't what they asked. They asked about concealed weapons, so (naturally enough) they got answers based on concealed weapon choices.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I disagree, I always carry a knife and a Spikey and I have trained in how to use them to defend myself, I have been involed in a few (3) real self-defense situations one of which involved the other person pulling a knife, in none of these situations did I ever pull my knife or spikey because I didn't think the situations called for them.



Everyone should act as they think best.  And as I said, no one else need accept my opinions.  I am glad your encounters worked out well for you.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Samurai said:


> Thanks for the grounded.  I am a trained martial artist with over 30 years in various arts....(TKD, Shotokan, Kali. JKD, Systema, and Western Martial Arts ).  I am not 'reacting' to someone trying to come into the school at 930pm.  That is really not the main point.  I had the skills and present of mind to turn this person away with minimal contact and some stern words.
> 
> I am responsible for the safety of 50 students and 4 teachers.  The area this school is in has seen 3 shooting and a stabbing in the last 8 months or so.  *I DO NOT want to resort to a firearm, thus my question.*  It just seems in Kansas I can have a canon on my hip, but not be allowed to hold a stick in self-defense.
> Thanks again
> Jeremy Bays






Dirty Dog said:


> Well sure.
> If the OP asked "What's the best way to deal with a person trying to enter the school building?" they'd get an entirely different set of answers.
> But that isn't what they asked. They asked about concealed weapons, so (naturally enough) they got answers based on concealed weapon choices.



A little of both I thought.  He was looking for a concealed weapon for sure, but not a gun.  But were it me, I think I would go with your advice; carry a gun, as long as it was legal for me to do so.  It would not be legal for me where I am, but apparently is where the OP is, just that he doesn't want to.

I also rather like the spikey (which I hadn't heard of before) mentioned by Justin Chang.  But despite some of the advertising, I think it would best be used by someone with training in grappling arts, or at least some grappling techniques.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times.  How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away.  Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.
> 
> As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon.  You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.
> 
> I understand a person may encounter an opponent with a weapon.  It has been said here that usually a weapon is pulled as a threat.  I understand that some although they are threatening, may in fact know how to use their weapon.  But they may not be expecting resistance, and that may be to the advantage of the person attacked.  Especially if that person is a trained martial artist.  Assuming of course they choose not to follow the normal advice of giving up whatever they are being threatened for, as is so often stated here in MT.



You mistakenly assume that training and carrying a weapon requires that it be used.  It doesn't.  It provides the option, as opposed to not carrying one, to use the entire continuum of force.  And again, thinking that your empty hand versus weapons training is going to work, particularly in a martial art that does not really emphasis weapons, is a recipe for death.  Good luck with that.


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## Blindside (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon.  You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.
> .



Learning to use a weapon for combat or self-protection IS martial arts. And the additional tools just give me options, I can do the unarmed thing just fine or I can do the tool thing, I like to have the opportunity to choose.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> You mistakenly assume that training and carrying a weapon requires that it be used.  It doesn't.  It provides the option, as opposed to not carrying one, to use the entire continuum of force.  And again, thinking that your empty hand versus weapons training is going to work, particularly in a martial art that does not really emphasis weapons, is a recipe for death.  Good luck with that.



If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.

I don't know that I am mistaken.  I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it.  And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.



Blindside said:


> Learning to use a weapon for combat or self-protection IS martial arts. And the additional tools just give me options, I can do the unarmed thing just fine or I can do the tool thing, I like to have the opportunity to choose.



That is true.  For you as I believe you. And for me because I know myself.  For how many others can you definitely state that is true?  And even you and I, if we perceive our unarmed defense may not work will then pull and use a weapon to ensure our opponent can't get to it?

Well, we all have our opinions.  I have stated mine and you two have stated yours.  I am confident in my response as I am sure you two are in yours.  If somebody reading this thread gets something useful from our differing opinions, that would be good.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.


 No.  If they don't teach it well.  And most do not, unless they happen to be martial arts that actually train the use of weapons, and not some esoteric weapon that farmers used 200 years ago, but weapons that are actually seen in use today.  



> I don't know that I am mistaken.  I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it.  And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.


 You are wrong.  I carry one on a daily basis, and I do so in the hope that I never, ever, have to use it.


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## Juany118 (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.
> 
> I don't know that I am mistaken.  I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it.  And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.



Here is a question.  Do your blocks always work?  No sometimes you get hit.  Now take into account a disarm is far more difficult.  Both my arts teach empty hand disarms AND weapons.  Kali out of the gate with weapons, Wing Chun later.  Again there is a reason Martial Arts include weapons.  Even Hapkido has weapons eventually for the reasons I posted earlier

As for the last, shenanigans.  First I carry a knife for utility as well.  It can be used for self-defense yes BUT part of self defense training should be an understand of appropriate use of force.  To use your logic is akin to saying if a martial arts teaches throat shots (lethal force) it will be prominent in their minds.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I find it is interesting how people choose sides here, and at different times.  How often are people encouraged to use tongue-fu, or simply run away.  Now a person comes and asks about weapons, which is his prerogative, and many people who sometimes counsel to run or try to de-escalation counsel for knives and guns.
> 
> As I have stated, it is my opinion that when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  What I mean by that in the context of this thread, is if you carry a weapon, it is likely that all your defensive strategies will center around defense with that weapon.  You don't need to waste time on martial arts, just learn that weapon as best you can.
> 
> ...



But you try to keep it a bit in theme with the thread.  So if a guy wants weapons.  Then you help with weapon choices. 

If a guy is constantly cracking dudes in the head with that maglight.  Then suggest deescalation. 

Otherwise you are basically patronising someone if they want weapons and the only advice you can give is avoid fights.


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## Samurai (Oct 17, 2016)

I have trained with some great Krav Maga instructors.  Their weapons system is pretty basic (that is a good thing).  The weapons are divided into:
1.) Weapons like a club
2.) Weapons like a shield
3.) Weapons like a rock
4.) Weapons like sling (all projectiles and distance  weapons, firearms are here) 
5.) Weapons like a sword (or knife)
6.) Weapons like a chain (flexible weapons)

When you divorce your mind of "techniques" you can see everything around you as a weapon.

As the OP, I was not asking "How do I defend a door?" or "Can I smash in someone's head with a bat or shoot them with a gun".  My question is pretty basic....I can have a gun, I have training with a handgun, I DON'T want to use a handgun in 95% of situations.  What are some other options?

I carry a handgun in my car.  That is fine, but if I am not in my car it does me little good.
I carry a hand on my person, I want other options.
Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> If your art(s) don't teach empty hand weapons defense, I would agree.
> 
> I don't know that I am mistaken. I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it. And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.



How confident in empty hand vs weapon are you though?

Because if you mess it up getting stabbed looks like it sucks.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 17, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know that I am mistaken.  I expect that most people who carry a knife or gun do so because they intend to use it.  And that it will be a very prominent thing in their minds if they get in what they perceive is a dangerous situation.



I believe you are mistaken. I carry on a daily basis, and have for many many years. Half of my family also carries daily. I have many friends and acquaintances who also carry regularly.
None of them carry with the intent to use. While I am sure there are examples of people who carry with the intent to use, I would say these people are a tiny minority of those who carry.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I believe you are mistaken. I carry on a daily basis, and have for many many years. Half of my family also carries daily. I have many friends and acquaintances who also carry regularly.
> None of them carry with the intent to use. While I am sure there are examples of people who carry with the intent to use, I would say these people are a tiny minority of those who carry.



There has to be some intent to use it.  Or why carry it?


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## Charlemagne (Oct 17, 2016)

I certainly think it is a good idea to train empty hand versus weapon.  Having a plan based upon solid techniques and tactics for applying those techniques is FAR better than not having the same.  However, anyone who thinks that training this, particularly in martial arts that don't emphasize realistic weapons in the first place, has somehow equaled the odds against a person wielding a weapon is deluding themselves.  Anyone who is teaching that in the name of self defense is a fraud.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There has to be some intent to use it.  Or why carry it?



Deterrent, first and fore most. And I see a difference between a *willingness* to use it if absolutely necessary and an *intent* to use it.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Deterrent, first and fore most. And I see a difference between a *willingness* to use it if absolutely necessary and an *intent* to use it.



See i like intent because it means that it was premeditated.

And if i kill someone it should be a deliberate choice. Not some sort of i wonder how this happened.

I feel this is especially important for guns as they are carried to kill things.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> See i like intent because it means that it was premeditated.
> 
> And if i kill someone it should be a deliberate choice. Not some sort of i wonder how this happened.
> 
> I feel this is especially important for guns as they are carried to kill things.


So if someone was to defend themselves with a gun and happen to kill their attacker that is premeditated murder?


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> So if someone was to defend themselves with a gun and happen to kill their attacker that is premeditated murder?



No it would be pre meditated killing in self defence.

It would be murder if the killing was done illegally.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> No.  If they don't teach it well.  And most do not, unless they happen to be martial arts that actually train the use of weapons, and not some esoteric weapon that farmers used 200 years ago, but weapons that are actually seen in use today.
> 
> *You are wrong.  I carry one on a daily basis, and I do so in the hope that I never, ever, have to use it*.



I haven't fired a weapon in a long time, much less carried one.  But I did for over 22 years.  Not in my house unless I had just gotten home or was about to leave.  But I never worried about using it.  I carried it as part of my authorized escalation of force.  If I used it, it was because someone else had done something to require me to do it.  And I was armed for that eventuality.  It then became a duty to use it and I would not have given it a second thought.

But I was speaking, as I thought the conversations were getting towards, of people who don't have the mind set, and the legal responsibility to sometimes use a weapon.  Also, they probably don't have training in using a weapon.  If you carry on a daily basis, I presume you are authorized and in fact, required to do so, and have been trained to do so.

EDIT:  I meant to question your comment on a martial art not teaching a particular type of defense well.  What kind of legitimate art would do that?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> I feel this is especially important for guns as they are carried to kill things.



In the USA, a gun is used for self defense (or defense of another) roughly 3,000,000 times each year, according to a CDC study. The number of times someone is killed is a tiny percentage. 
Personally, I carry all the time, and I've fired literally thousands of rounds without killing anyone.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Here is a question.  Do your blocks always work?  No sometimes you get hit.  Now take into account a disarm is far more difficult.  Both my arts teach empty hand disarms AND weapons.  Kali out of the gate with weapons, Wing Chun later.  Again there is a reason Martial Arts include weapons.  Even Hapkido has weapons eventually for the reasons I posted earlier
> 
> As for the last, shenanigans.  First I carry a knife for utility as well.  It can be used for self-defense yes BUT part of self defense training should be an understand of appropriate use of force.  To use your logic is akin to saying if a martial arts teaches throat shots (lethal force) it will be prominent in their minds.



I don't think your logic works out.  I was taught techniques that could be lethal.  More than one technique for more than one defense; not just one weapon or defense.  Nor is carrying a knife for utility but oh, I have a knife if I need it for defense.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> But you try to keep it a bit in theme with the thread.  So if a guy wants weapons.  Then you help with weapon choices.
> 
> If a guy is constantly cracking dudes in the head with that maglight.  Then suggest deescalation.
> 
> Otherwise you are basically patronising someone if they want weapons and the only advice you can give is avoid fights.



Actually, points well taken.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> How confident in empty hand vs weapon are you though?
> 
> Because if you mess it up getting stabbed looks like it sucks.



Frankly, it took a while, but I became confident as time went on.  Some I didn't like as well, but again, after I got more and more competence, I got more confident.  Luckily I guess, I never had to use any of those defenses in real life, so I can't promise you I was as competent as I felt I was.  But I think so.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> In the USA, a gun is used for self defense (or defense of another) roughly 3,000,000 times each year, according to a CDC study. The number of times someone is killed is a tiny percentage.
> Personally, I carry all the time, and I've fired literally thousands of rounds without killing anyone.



Yeah. personally I am not a fan of that line of reasoning. If I was going to carry a gun for self defence then I would carry the responsibility that I would kill someone with it.

But I think that is a cultural difference. we are very serious about gun use.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> Frankly, it took a while, but I became confident as time went on.  Some I didn't like as well, but again, after I got more and more competence, I got more confident.  Luckily I guess, I never had to use any of those defenses in real life, so I can't promise you I was as competent as I felt I was.  But I think so.



Ok. I have de knifed three guys and pretty much got away scott free. done heaps of bottles. and even a packet of cigarettes by mistake.

But I have also seen guys crippled. And am becoming considerably less inclined to go hand to hand with a knifey guy.

It would want to be over something important.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I believe you are mistaken. I carry on a daily basis, and have for many many years. Half of my family also carries daily. I have many friends and acquaintances who also carry regularly.
> None of them carry with the intent to use. While I am sure there are examples of people who carry with the intent to use, I would say these people are a tiny minority of those who carry.



You can disagree all you want.  Maybe you are even correct.  But I wonder if you aren't (as is human), deciding that you are doing what you think is right, and so all people must be doing that?  Or that circle of family and friends of yours do it, so all people must do it?


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> Deterrent, first and fore most. And I see a difference between a *willingness* to use it if absolutely necessary and an *intent* to use it.



I just wasn't taught to use a firearm as a deterrent.  If it was time to use it, it was to be pulled and if circumstances didn't change immediately, use it.  I guess there is a little room for deterrence there, but the intent of pulling a weapon was to use it, not hope for deterrence.

As to a difference between wiliness and intent ...  I believe I understand what you are trying to say, I just disagree.  To me, carrying should indeed come with a willingness to use.  Pulling a weapon should come with an intent to use.  My reasoning on the latter is that if I pull a weapon hoping it will be a deterrent, and it is not, I better have intended to use it before I pulled it, because I have no other options at that point.

I hope I am explaining that well.  Does it make any sense to you?


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't think your logic works out.  I was taught techniques that could be lethal.  More than one technique for more than one defense; not just one weapon or defense.  Nor is carrying a knife for utility but oh, I have a knife if I need it for defense.



The last part makes no sense and you keep dodging the lack of logic in your argument and you even avoided my first argument that points it out.

You learned disarms in an art that also teaches weapons.  Why do the arts have disarms?  Not because you don't need weapons but because the arts are designed knowing that weapons are more effective and you need at least a chance of taking out of the equation or you will lose.  However disarms are even less of a sure thing that simply blocking a punch.

Also regarding the "willingness vs intent" argument above you did not get it.  You argument was in carrying a weapon it will essentially become a person's default defense (which is not true.). The argument being made in response is that there is a difference between carrying and being willing to use a weapon if ABSOLUTELY necessary and carrying a weapon and intending to use it regardless of the circumstances.


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> So if someone was to defend themselves with a gun and happen to kill their attacker that is premeditated murder?



The law says intent can be formed in seconds, so if someone is simply trying to punch you and you double tap them, depending on the circumstances it could be treated as such.


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## Justin Chang (Oct 18, 2016)

oftheherd1 said:


> I just wasn't taught to use a firearm as a deterrent.  If it was time to use it, it was to be pulled and if circumstances didn't change immediately, use it.  I guess there is a little room for deterrence there, but the intent of pulling a weapon was to use it, not hope for deterrence.


I think the deterrent aspect is if you're open carrying like a police officer or armed guard, if no one can see it I doubt it would be too effective at deterring anything and I agree a gun should never be unholstered unless you intend to shoot it.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 18, 2016)

Samurai said:


> I have trained with some great Krav Maga instructors.  Their weapons system is pretty basic (that is a good thing).  The weapons are divided into:
> 1.) Weapons like a club
> 2.) Weapons like a shield
> 3.) Weapons like a rock
> ...



Despite all the rest of the thread hijacking I and others have engaged in, I think your question has been answered.  Flashlight, OC, ASP or taser would all be options.  In the Hapkido I studied, we learned a lot of defense with a short stick (about 12 inches long) that would also be an option, but there is a long learning curve to be competent and confident.  Do you think the taser, OC, or flashlight would be what you were looking for or were you looking for other parameters for making choices?


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I think the deterrent aspect is if you're open carrying like a police officer or armed guard, if no one can see it I doubt it would be too effective at deterring anything and I agree a gun should never be unholstered unless you intend to shoot it.



If I had a dollar for everytime I heard "if you didn't have that gun and badge..." but it goes beyond that.  Coincidentally last month I respond to a call.  A man had won in a property dispute with his ex-girlfriend.  He is standing in front of the house a car pulls up and 4 guys with baseball bats hop out, one the new boyfriend.  The new beau start yelling "you owe her $12,000, I'll... **** you have a gun." Everyone hops back in the cars and jet.  Why?  This guy has a permit but my State is an open carry State and he was wearing it in plain view on his hip.


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## Tez3 (Oct 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> If I had a dollar for everytime I heard "if you didn't have that gun and badge..." but it goes beyond that.  Coincidentally last month I respond to a call.  A man had won in a property dispute with his ex-girlfriend.  He is standing in front of the house a car pulls up and 4 guys with baseball bats hop out, one the new boyfriend.  The new beau start yelling "you owe her $12,000, I'll... **** you have a gun." Everyone hops back in the cars and jet.  Why?  This guy has a permit but my State is an open carry State and he was wearing it in plain view on his hip.




That would never happen in the UK.........

since the referendum to leave the EU property prices have fallen so low the husband would have been the loser for getting the house.


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## Paul_D (Oct 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Everyone hops back in the cars and jet.


They had a jet, how big is the driveway to this house? 

;-)


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## crazydiamond (Oct 18, 2016)

Another vote for the mag light. I carry a tactical flash light with me most of the time. Its also great at temporarily blinding someone.

And you know its not illegal to carry a hammer or have one in your car, home or desk drawer. You know for putting up your certificates and diplomas, or family photos, and you just happen to still have it with you at work, or on the ride home or something.

I train in Kali as well - and we have used clubs, flashlights, pens, and yes hammers in class.


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

crazydiamond said:


> Another vote for the mag light. I carry a tactical flash light with me most of the time. Its also great at temporarily blinding someone.
> 
> And you know its not illegal to carry a hammer or have one in your car, home or desk drawer. You know for putting up your certificates and diplomas, or family photos, and you just happen to still have it with you at work, or on the ride home or something.
> 
> I train in Kali as well - and we have used clubs, flashlights, pens, and yes hammers in class.



I do sometimes carry a tactical flashlight (if I think I will be in low light conditions) but typically it's my knife and a tactical pen always.


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2016)

Justin Chang said:


> I think the deterrent aspect is if you're open carrying like a police officer or armed guard, if no one can see it I doubt it would be too effective at deterring anything and I agree a gun should never be unholstered unless you intend to shoot it.



Shouldn't be carried unless you intend to shoot it.


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Shouldn't be carried unless you intend to shoot it.



Agreed but the US is a crazy country where you can actually still open carry in many States like they did in the "Wild West" so be prepared to use it BUT if you open carry it's obvious presence can be a deterrent as well.  I do not open carry, though I could.  Hell I can't remember the last time I carried a gun off duty tbh, but it's doable.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 19, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Shouldn't be carried unless you intend to shoot it.



Wrong.  The correct term is "prepared" not "intend".  Big difference.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Wrong.  The correct term is "prepared" not "intend".  Big difference.



You prepare for an assault. you intend to shoot someone should that assault happen. 

Yes there is a difference.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 20, 2016)

Charlemagne said:


> Wrong.  The correct term is "prepared" not "intend".  Big difference.



Difference in semantics to an extent in Drop Bear (to the extent that I can speak for him or you) and your comments, but also in thought processes, at least for me.  When I carry a firearm, I must indeed be prepared to use it.  If I pull that firearm, that means I intend to use it.

Something may change between the time I start to draw the firearm and the time I pull the trigger, that may change the situation.  But I would not pull the weapon unless I intended to use it.  Absent something happening that changed the need to shoot, I would shoot.

If that isn't the way you want to carry and use, that is your choice.


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

Never aim a gun at something you do not intend to destroy.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 20, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Never aim a gun at something you do not intend to destroy.



I believe the quote is "prepared", not "intend" and that is certainly how I see it.


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## Juany118 (Oct 20, 2016)

Dirty Dog said:


> I believe the quote is "prepared", not "intend" and that is certainly how I see it.


You are correct that's what I get for posting quickly between calls for service. Lol


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