# Belt Preferance



## Azulx (Sep 7, 2017)

I just want to know people's opinions on black belts. Do you like to keep your same black belt, or get a new one when you test and why?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 7, 2017)

Azulx said:


> I just want to know people's opinions on black belts. Do you like to keep your same black belt, or get a new one when you test and why?


I've kept the same one, because it's still in pretty good shape (I wear hakama over it about half the time, so less wear I guess). Most folks I know who replace theirs do so because either it doesn't look like they'd like (not everyone likes the worn-out look), or it's too worn to add new rank markings to it. Some replace it simply because they're given a new belt at promotion time.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 7, 2017)

We give new belts, because we do. If someone wanted to add a stripe to their old belt, I don't think anyone would object.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2017)

We don't give out new belts past shodan.  All our black belts look the same.  As I understand it, the stripes on the black belt thing is typically done incorrectly anyway.  It's NOT one one stripe per black belt level.  Three stripes means something like 8th Dan, although I can't recall at the moment (because we don't do it in our dojo, I guess).

We have several instructors who have been teaching more than 30 years, and they can wear a red/white panel belt if they prefer (6th Dan) or a solid red belt (9th Dan), but they normally do not do so unless invited somewhere as an honored guest and asked to wear them.  They just wear plain black belts, just like mine (2nd Dan).


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## Buka (Sep 7, 2017)

I used to ask for a matching tie, but since they're so uncommon now, I ask for socks.


 

I want to look the berries for big Martial hoe-downs.


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## JR 137 (Sep 7, 2017)

I'm not a black belt anymore, but my first school (I was a 1st dan) issued new belts with every promotion.  My current school adds a stripe to the old belt, although I think you can request a new belt along with the old one's added stripe.

I'd rather keep the old one.


Bill Mattocks said:


> We don't give out new belts past shodan.  All our black belts look the same.  As I understand it, the stripes on the black belt thing is typically done incorrectly anyway.  It's NOT one one stripe per black belt level.  Three stripes means something like 8th Dan, although I can't recall at the moment (because we don't do it in our dojo, I guess).
> 
> We have several instructors who have been teaching more than 30 years, and they can wear a red/white panel belt if they prefer (6th Dan) or a solid red belt (9th Dan), but they normally do not do so unless invited somewhere as an honored guest and asked to wear them.  They just wear plain black belts, just like mine (2nd Dan).


There's really no right nor wrong way.  The only time it's right or wrong is if you're doing or not doing what everyone else is expected to do within your organization/rules set forth by your head honcho.

I haven't polled the various organizations, but I've noticed far more schools add a stripe each time then the ones who start at higher a predetermined rank.

The ones who start at a higher predetermined rank usually start stripes at 6th dan.  I've seen it in Uechi Ryu and one other that I can't recall.  I guess I'll add Isshin Ryu to my running list.

Some schools (American Kempo and I think Hatsumi's Ninjutsu) use a solid box for every 5 stripes, i.e. a 7th dan would have a solid red box with 2 red stripes above it; a 10th dan would have 2 solid red boxes.

I think Hatsumi's organization goes to 15th dan; I read that in a magazine article somewhere.  15th dan is unheard of practically everywhere else. Is that wrong?  Only if your organization only goes to 10th dan.


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## jobo (Sep 7, 2017)

I'm struggling to see the point of belts, yes ok they hold you gi in place, but i choose not to wear a gi so no need for a belt.
they denote rank or progress, but why do you need to advise people of that fact, they either know or will soon find out what standard you are. if i did wear a gi, i wouldnt bother buying a new belt to go with new rank, much less stick a tag on it, what that about?.

there was  an amusing episode, where i attended class on a,different night and met a black belt who had recently joined from another group.

he mistook my apparel to mean i was a newbe, he went swoop swooz,, kick, twirl and then round himself sat on his bum, the look on his face was priceless,


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## MA_Student (Sep 7, 2017)

In kenpo you keep the same belt. But you can replace it whenever you want. For example if mine got all messed up I could replace it myself if I wanted. At 5th dan you get presented with a new belt which has a big red block on it instead of 5 individual stripes.

Heck one kid who got his first dan went and got his name put on it in gold letters in both English and Chinese (god knows why) tbh I think it made him look like an idiot since even 7th dans don't have that on their belt but anyway


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## Danny T (Sep 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm struggling to see the point of belts, yes ok they hold you gi in place, but i choose not to wear a gi so no need for a belt.
> they denote rank or progress, but why do you need to advise people of that fact, they either know or will soon find out what standard you are. if i did wear a gi, i wouldnt bother buying a new belt to go with new rank, much less stick a tag on it, what that about?.
> 
> there was  an amusing episode, where i attended class on a,different night and met a black belt who had recently joined from another group.
> ...


Because it is important to some people...that is all.
Belts aren't important to others...that is all.
Some people like denium jeans, some don't...that is all.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 7, 2017)

My school gives a new belt at every promotion.  When I made 2nd Dan, I didn't like the idea because my 1st Dan belt was so soft and broken-in that it practically tied itself.  The new one was just too stiff.  Of course, after lots of wear and sweat, the 2nd Dan belt is even better.  I took my first Dan belt to an embroidery place and had a second stripe added, and it is now my back-up belt.


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## shihansmurf (Sep 7, 2017)

I have a few. I give my dan grade students a new belt with each promotion but the highest I've promoted anyone is to 4th and I don't promote that many black belts in the first place so it is really up to the student. Some of them like to wear the stripes, some of them wear plain black. I usually wear plain black unless it is test day.

The real question is if we should adopt a system of funny hats to denote rank. I think the order should go something like this...

Trucker Hat
Fez
Beanie
Bandanna
Tri Corner Cap
Stove Top Hat
Bowler
Cowboy Hat for instructors.

Just a thought,
Mark

P.S.  Obviously, the Smurf Hat is for Grand Masters, only outranked by the Fuzzy Hat with Tiny Horns worn by the Loyal Order of the Water Buffalo.

P.P.S.  I have come to believe that we make too much of a bit of fabric around our waists, I try to keep more perspective on the subjective now as I have gotten older.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 7, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm struggling to see the point of belts



They provide a quick and easy way for the instructor to know what a student has already been taught, and what he or she needs to learn next.


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## geezer (Sep 7, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I think Hatsumi's organization goes to 15th dan; I read that in a magazine article somewhere.  15th dan is unheard of practically everywhere else. Is that wrong?  Only if your organization only goes to 10th dan.



15?!? That's so awesome. A lot of systems only go to 10, if that. Why settle for just 10?


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## JR 137 (Sep 7, 2017)

geezer said:


> 15?!? That's so awesome. A lot of systems only go to 10, if that. Why settle for just 10?


I love the Spinal Tap reference.  Classic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 7, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I guess I'll add Isshin Ryu to my running list.



I agree no 'right' or 'wrong' to the stripes on black belts thing - it's per organization.  What I meant to say is that Isshinryu does NOT do stripes on black belts, at least not my branch (WUIKA).  We do offer those of 6th Dan and up a red/white panel belt and 9th and up a solid red belt - if they wish to wear it.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> They provide a quick and easy way for the instructor to know what a student has already been taught, and what he or she needs to learn next.


so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm struggling to see the point of belts, yes ok they hold you gi in place, but i choose not to wear a gi so no need for a belt.
> they denote rank or progress, but why do you need to advise people of that fact, they either know or will soon find out what standard you are. if i did wear a gi, i wouldnt bother buying a new belt to go with new rank, much less stick a tag on it, what that about?.
> 
> there was  an amusing episode, where i attended class on a,different night and met a black belt who had recently joined from another group.
> ...


Cool story bro needs more dragons


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?


ma student, this is a question, you can't really mark a question as disagree


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> ma student, this is a question, you can't really mark a question as disagree


Course I can it was easy


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Course I can it was easy


well yea,easy to do, but not  actually logical


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> My school gives a new belt at every promotion.  When I made 2nd Dan, I didn't like the idea because my 1st Dan belt was so soft and broken-in that it practically tied itself.  The new one was just too stiff.  Of course, after lots of wear and sweat, the 2nd Dan belt is even better.  I took my first Dan belt to an embroidery place and had a second stripe added, and it is now my back-up belt.


really, you went to that much trouble to have a,stripe added, what benefits do you get from the stripe?
to be fair when i was in the,scouts i used to get my merit badges stitched on my sleave, but i didn't get many so it,didn't really take a lot of,effort for me mam to sew them


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Because it is important to some people...that is all.
> Belts aren't important to others...that is all.
> Some people like denium jeans, some don't...that is all.


like,i say its a,strange,concept to me, anything short of a black belt is,a mark that you are not very good yet, why would people,spend money to advertise that fact. stripes on a black belt,show you are,a little bit better than a black belt, again why bother?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> again why bother?


Because the teacher says so.  Why do you care so much what other people wear?


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## Danny T (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> like,i say its a,strange,concept to me, anything short of a black belt is,a mark that you are not very good yet, why would people,spend money to advertise that fact. stripes on a black belt,show you are,a little bit better than a black belt, again why bother?


LOL...
"Why Bother?"
I'll attempt to explain in simple words.
Because it is important to Them. That is all.
I'm not a fan of belts and ranks but understand it's a great goal maker and helps in large student bodies for the instructor/s to know where one is within the curriculum. 
There are schools that have multiple instructors or large student enrollment belts are a good what to designate what has been imparted and to group students of equal skill/knowledge during group training. Has nothing to do with the instructors memory.

So attaining black belt is a mark that you are good? 
Not necessarily. Really depends on the art, the school, the instructor/s as to skill.
Not all but most martial arts that use belt ranks black means you have learned the basics or the fundamentals and are now ready to start learning and gaining real skills. Think of it more as having graduated at a secondary education level. You can function but to really be successful you need a lot more training.
Do you know where the belt ranking came from or what the original black belt designated?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?


Just an easy reference. It also helps students know which techniques another student can handle in "live" work, in some systems.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well yea,easy to do, but not  actually logical


Unless he's disagreeing with the statement posed as a rhetorical question.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unless he's disagreeing with the statement posed as a rhetorical question.


it wasnt a rhetorical question, it was a,request to confirm that it was or wasn't a reasonable interpretation of the the answer given.


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> like,i say its a,strange,concept to me, anything short of a black belt is,a mark that you are not very good yet, why would people,spend money to advertise that fact. stripes on a black belt,show you are,a little bit better than a black belt, again why bother?


That is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard...so according to you if you don't have a black belt you're not very good but you also said you don't have one. So that must mean you're not very good by your own logic. Well at least you're honest about it


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> like,i say its a,strange,concept to me, anything short of a black belt is,a mark that you are not very good yet, why would people,spend money to advertise that fact. stripes on a black belt,show you are,a little bit better than a black belt, again why bother?


If you don't agree with belts why are you even on this thread. It wasn't a question of if you like them or not it was what they do with the belts and since you don't use them your opinion on this thread means nothing and adds nothing to the discussion. Was it just to tell us how bad *** you are that you don't use belts and yet supposedly put someone on the floor like that's meant to impress anyone


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Just an easy reference. It also helps students know which techniques another student can handle in "live" work, in some systems.


yea,, but the fuss people make,about achieving them sticking stripes on them etal, show they have,a,deeper purpose than just helping with the order of the class.
people don't generaly turn up at,swimming class,wearing their achievement medals


purpose


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## Streetfighter2 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> like,i say its a,strange,concept to me, anything short of a black belt is,a mark that you are not very good yet, why would people,spend money to advertise that fact. stripes on a black belt,show you are,a little bit better than a black belt, again why bother?


Sounds like you're just bitter you're not good enough to get one. Anyone who truly doesn't care about belts doesn't start insulting the idea


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea,, but the fuss people make,about achieving them sticking stripes on them etal, show they have,a,deeper purpose than just helping with the order of the class.
> people don't generaly turn up at,swimming class,wearing their achievement medals
> 
> 
> purpose


Only person I see making a fuss is you.....


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> If you don't agree with belts why are you even on this thread. It wasn't a question of if you like them or not it was what they do with the belts and since you don't use them your opinion on this thread means nothing and adds nothing to the discussion. Was it just to tell us how bad *** you are that you don't use belts and yet supposedly put someone on the floor like that's meant to impress anyone


i think they are,childish, but its,a,fair question of why a grown man would go and get his belt embellished so he strut around with his new rank on display.

if they were indicative of how well you can fight they might have some meaning, but commonly using the techniques you have learnt in a meaningful way isn't part of the test . 

so that leaves the question of if they don't,show how bad *** you are, what do they show


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## Headhunter (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think they are,childish, but its,a,fair question of why a grown man would go and get his belt embellished so he strut around with his new rank on display.
> 
> if they were indicative of how well you can fight they might have some meaning, but commonly using the techniques you have learnt in a meaningful way isn't part of the test .
> 
> so that leaves the question of if they don't,show how bad *** you are, what do they show


Ah I see someone let the clown out of his box again


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think they are,childish, but its,a,fair question of why a grown man would go and get his belt embellished so he strut around with his new rank on display.
> 
> if they were indicative of how well you can fight they might have some meaning, but commonly using the techniques you have learnt in a meaningful way isn't part of the test .
> 
> so that leaves the question of if they don't,show how bad *** you are, what do they show


Maybe because people don't care how tough they are. As for why? Who not? What's it got to do with you get on with your own life.

I find the people who care so much about what other people do have pretty sad lives


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Streetfighter2 said:


> Sounds like you're just bitter you're not good enough to get one. Anyone who truly doesn't care about belts doesn't start insulting the idea


I'm not bitter, its a,simple fact that I've not put the required amount of years in to get a black belt. if i do get there, Il hang it in my wardrobe next to all the ties i never,wear. Not go strutting about in it like it means,anything


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea,, but the fuss people make,about achieving them sticking stripes on them etal, show they have,a,deeper purpose than just helping with the order of the class.
> people don't generaly turn up at,swimming class,wearing their achievement medals
> 
> 
> purpose


I've never run into much of that problem, though I've heard many who don't like belts/ranks out it forth as an issue with them. To me, it's a lot like someone saying MMA breeds bullies. Those in MMA don't experience much of that. 

Most people use their belt/next rank as a guideline of what to focus on, and nothing more. They know what is required to reach the next rank, and that's where they focus effort. If the rank requirements are well-designed, this works in the student's favor. It would be no different (to them) if there was no rank, and they were simply given guidance as to what to focus on.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Maybe because people don't care how tough they are. As for why? Who not? What's it got to do with you get on with your own life.
> 
> I find the people who care so much about what other people do have pretty sad lives


so if a black belt doesn't mean you are good at using what ever ma you have spent years learning what does it mean?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> i think they are,childish, but its,a,fair question of why a grown man would go and get his belt embellished so he strut around with his new rank on display.
> 
> if they were indicative of how well you can fight they might have some meaning, but commonly using the techniques you have learnt in a meaningful way isn't part of the test .
> 
> so that leaves the question of if they don't,show how bad *** you are, what do they show


Again, you are positing the existence of behavior (an adult strutting around) I've not seen exhibited often. As for your point about how they are tested, that's a problem with testing, not with belts. Take the belt out of the equation, and that issue doesn't go away.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> so if a black belt doesn't mean you are good at using what ever ma you have spent years learning what does it mean?


The meaning varies by school/organization. That has been discussed _ad nauseum. _


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've never run into much of that problem, though I've heard many who don't like belts/ranks out it forth as an issue with them. To me, it's a lot like someone saying MMA breeds bullies. Those in MMA don't experience much of that.
> 
> Most people use their belt/next rank as a guideline of what to focus on, and nothing more. They know what is required to reach the next rank, and that's where they focus effort. If the rank requirements are well-designed, this works in the student's favor. It would be no different (to them) if there was no rank, and they were simply given guidance as to what to focus on.


using your level as a,guide as to what to learn next is the same as wearing you level  round your waist.
its just not common in sports or pass times.
i wouldnt turn up at a pool tournnent with all my trophies or if i did people would make fun of me, much like i am here


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The meaning varies by school/organization. That has been discussed _ad nauseum. _


so it means nothing much at all then,


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> using your level as a,guide as to what to learn next is the same as wearing you level  round your waist.
> its just not common in sports or pass times.
> i wouldnt turn up at a pool tournnent with all my trophies or if i did people would make fun of me, much like i am here


That is one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen and after reading your stuff that's saying something. Getting belts isn't a competition it's a personal progression. The point of them is to show that the person knows the moves they've been taught and can do them. You seem like someone who may not wear their medals but you'll go round telling everyone you've won them


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Again, you are positing the existence of behavior (an adult strutting around) I've not seen exhibited often. As for your point about how they are tested, that's a problem with testing, not with belts. Take the belt out of the equation, and that issue doesn't go away.


the two are related if the,test is meaningless against any real world situation then the belt is meaningless, so people are,wearing a meaningless badge of,rank, and that is peculiar


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> using your level as a,guide as to what to learn next is the same as wearing you level  round your waist.
> its just not common in sports or pass times.
> i wouldnt turn up at a pool tournnent with all my trophies or if i did people would make fun of me, much like i am here


You are equating it to a trophy. Think of it more like which league you play in. In pool, I would be slaughtered in the "a" flight. So, I might play in the "c" flight, where I have a chance at competing. That flight is equivalent to a rank. A yellow belt (in my curriculum) wouldn't be as skilled as a brown belt. Think of the yellow belt as the "c" flight. They might post the flights on the wall at an open tournament, so everyone can figure out who to play. And, to make it easier, they might give folks name tags with their flight printed on it. 

Now, assume there will also be some instruction at this open tournament. The instructor could look at the flight on my badge and have an idea of my general skill level, so he'd have an idea where to start, and can adjust as he gets to know me better.


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm not bitter, its a,simple fact that I've not put the required amount of years in to get a black belt. if i do get there, Il hang it in my wardrobe next to all the ties i never,wear. Not go strutting about in it like it means,anything


Sooo...according to you anything below black belt means you're not very good yet you haven't put in enough years to get one...hmm okay


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> That is one of the stupidest comments I've ever seen and after reading your stuff that's saying something. Getting belts isn't a competition it's a personal progression. The point of them is to show that the person knows the moves they've been taught and can do them. You seem like someone who may not wear their medals but you'll go round telling everyone you've won them


that's the purpose of the test, the purpose of wearing your test results round your waist hasn't been established


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> the two are related if the,test is meaningless against any real world situation then the belt is meaningless, so people are,wearing a meaningless badge of,rank, and that is peculiar


If the test is meaningless against any real world situation then the belt is meaningless real world situation. That just means that's not what the belt tells us. It still tells us whatever the test told us (they know a certain kata, or whatever). The belt isn't what doesn't answer the question you want it to - the test is. Change the test, the belt tells you something different. Remove the belt, and the test is unchanged.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are equating it to a trophy. Think of it more like which league you play in. In pool, I would be slaughtered in the "a" flight. So, I might play in the "c" flight, where I have a chance at competing. That flight is equivalent to a rank. A yellow belt (in my curriculum) wouldn't be as skilled as a brown belt. Think of the yellow belt as the "c" flight. They might post the flights on the wall at an open tournament, so everyone can figure out who to play. And, to make it easier, they might give folks name tags with their flight printed on it.
> 
> Now, assume there will also be some instruction at this open tournament. The instructor could look at the flight on my badge and have an idea of my general skill level, so he'd have an idea where to start, and can adjust as he gets to know me better.


they are a trophy, they are given out at ceremony, with lot of bowing, what else would you call them?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's the purpose of the test, the purpose of wearing your test results round your waist hasn't been established


Actually, it has. You just weren't listening when people answered that question.


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's the purpose of the test, the purpose of wearing your test results round your waist hasn't been established


Sure it has you just didnt like the answer


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> they are a trophy, they are given out at ceremony, with lot of bowing, what else would you call them?


A symbol. A grade. A score. An indicator.


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's the purpose of the test, the purpose of wearing your test results round your waist hasn't been established


Yeah it has been answered. So people know who the higher ranks are so people know what they need to be learning next, so people can see who the beginners are, so people from outside the club can judge people they don't know based on their rank, so people can work with people there own level and get more out of it than working with a beginner. Enough for you yet? ...probably not


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> If the test is meaningless against any real world situation then the belt is meaningless real world situation. That just means that's not what the belt tells us. It still tells us whatever the test told us (they know a certain kata, or whatever). The belt isn't what doesn't answer the question you want it to - the test is. Change the test, the belt tells you something different. Remove the belt, and the test is unchanged.


yes that's what it tells the instructor, but all other sports seem to manage with out everyone,wearing a,badge, but people,arnt getting them embellished with embroidery for the benefit of the instructors are they,


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A symbol. A grade. A score. An indicator.


your trying to split the,difference between a,symbol of achievement. And,a trophy of achievement, really?


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## ballen0351 (Sep 8, 2017)

Right because grown adults should never wear colored cloth it means nothing.......


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes that's what it tells the instructor, but all other sports seem to manage with out everyone,wearing a,badge, but people,arnt getting them embellished with embroidery for the benefit of the instructors are they,


Either you're a troll or just dumb. Martial arts has a huge amounts of techniques and forms. Rank is a way to separate the material and divide it out so people can learn easier. In swimming as you like to talk about everyone learns to swim the same way there's no higher up swimming moves that a beginner can't understand. But in martial arts there's stuff a beginner physically can't learn straight away so they have to build it up slowly. Blimey this is hard work I feel like a teacher explaining to a 5 year what 1+1 is


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes that's what it tells the instructor, but all other sports seem to manage with out everyone,wearing a,badge, but people,arnt getting them embellished with embroidery for the benefit of the instructors are they,


The embroidery part is foreign to me. That's just a thing some folks or associations do, and not relevant below BB, so far as I know.

In most sports, the division is handled before the people end up together. When I coached soccer (football), all students were given a grading. That only mattered when they first entered the team (so the coaches had a starting point), and wasn't relevant to other players during practice. Since there wasn't a constant change of who was in, and who could handle a given "technique" (not really an issue in most sports), a visible reminder wasn't useful.

Point me to another sport that has the same issues as MA (different techniques, 1-1 interaction, etc.), and then we can have a more meaningful discussion about how they handle those issues.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> your trying to split the,difference between a,symbol of achievement. And,a trophy of achievement, really?


Nope. I was pointing out that it is a symbol, and that's only one thing it serves as. A trophy, so far as i can think of, serves no other purpose. My BB certificate is like the trophy. I keep it at home, unless someone asks to see it.


----------



## geezer (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Either you're a troll or just dumb...



_Jobo_ is neither a troll nor dumb. He is an _evil clown!_

I agree with him about half the time. And sometimes find his comments really funny. And almost always he's goading somebody. Gotta love it.

The comment on this thread that caught my eye was his remark in response to _Rough Rider's_ statement about belts: _They provide a quick and easy way for the instructor to know what a student has already been taught, and what he or she needs to learn next.

Jobo _replied:_ ...so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?
_
To be honest, that's good enough for me. I teach Ving Tsun and Escrima, and don't use belts, but we do have testing and ranks. And, even with my small group, that's exactly why I like testing. Otherwise I'd never remember exactly what each student had learned. If you want to cover a curriculum without gaps, a system in which you test for grade can be really helpful. And if you taught a big group, I can see how rank insignias would help too.

Now as to whether your mum would have time to sew them on is another issue.


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## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

geezer said:


> _Jobo_ is neither a troll nor dumb. He is an _evil clown!_
> 
> I agree with him about half the time. And sometimes find his comments really funny. And almost always he's goading somebody. Gotta love it.
> 
> ...



Regarding teaching big groups and @jobo 

There's a great reason for belts in the organization I'm in...

Seido Juku has dojos on every continent except Antarctica, and over 40,000 students total.  If a student goes to another dojo for a visit (and taking a class), there's no question what that student's rank is, what they know (or at least are supposed to know), etc.  The student lines up at their appropriate place and is treated as everyone else of that rank.  If I decide to go to our founder's dojo in NYC, he knows exactly where I am in the syllabus and doesn't have to stop and ask me if I've been taught a specific kata, technique, etc.; in this regard it's like I've been his student since day one.  People from other dojos within our organization come to our dojo frequently to take a class.  Everyone knows what that person knows and doesn't know (syllabus-wise).  That doesn't mean "I'm a black belt and he's a green belt, so I'll have no problem beating him down" but it does give you a very superficial sense of what to expect.

Then there's mass workouts, clinics, gatherings, etc. where people from different dojos can quite easily be separated into groups.  Some tweaking may be necessary, but very little.

Our honbu (headquarters dojo) has a couple hundred students, with many instructors teaching different classes.  If you always go to the same classes with the same teachers, no big deal.  But if you decide to go on a different night/time than usual, the teacher who's perhaps never met you can easily tell what your responsible for knowing and can easily make sure he/she's teaching you appropriate stuff.  

In a small dojo such as the one I train at with 40 students total and 1 person teaching 90% of the classes, it would be relatively easy to forgo belts.  Once we stepped out of the dojo and into an affiliated one, what I said above makes a ton of sense and makes life easier for the teachers and students.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> so they are just for the benefit of instructors with poor memories?


There are over 100 students at my dojang.  We are open 6 days a week and everybody is allowed unlimited training.  Most instructors cannot be there every day because they have other jobs.  So,yeah, I guess they just have poor memory if they don't know that a particular student should be working on Taegeuk O-Jang without seeing the blue belt around his waist.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> really, you went to that much trouble to have a,stripe added, what benefits do you get from the stripe?


As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt.  I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.)  Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt.  Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt.  I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now.  My school is strict about uniforms.  The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required.  Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> really, you went to that much trouble to have a,stripe added, what benefits do you get from the stripe?
> to be fair when i was in the,scouts i used to get my merit badges stitched on my sleave, but i didn't get many so it,didn't really take a lot of,effort for me mam to sew them


You make it sound like some huge level of effort. I'll warrant it took less effort than @drop bear's fantastic (or hideous - take your choice) tie-dyed dogi. Probably no more than having a patch sewn on a sleeve, or the hemming I had done on a pair of suit pants. In each case, the benefit was minimal, as was the effort.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt.  I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.)  Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt.  Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt.  I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now.  My school is strict about uniforms.  The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required.  Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.


well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> As I stated, I did it to have a back-up belt.  I have 2 gear bags (a large one that can hold my sparring gear and a smaller one that I use on days that I'm not sparring.)  Sometimes when I switch bags, I forget my belt.  Now I keep the back-up in my car so I don't have to drive home for the belt.  I couldn't wear the old belt with one stripe since I'm supposed to have two now.  My school is strict about uniforms.  The embroidered black belts are not a personal choice, they are required.  Also, it wasn't "that much trouble" to have it done.


I had a back-up. I never got around to getting stripes on it (which caused some confusion at one school I visited). Then my lab-pit mix ate one end of it, which made the lack of stripes rather academic. Maybe she agrees with Jobo on this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?


IMO, most places, if the students know you, they'll make fun of you like any friends when you show up with something they know is slightly off. I wore my brown belt one time after I'd been promoted (odd, I don't recall why - I presume I forgot my BB). I also trained in a white belt a couple of times, when I got into town too late to grab my bag, and had to borrow a spare uniform at the school. In both cases, people I outranked (but the belt I had on did not), gave me ludicrous orders. "Brown belt, go mop the walls!" Other than giving them something to have fun with, it mattered to them not at all.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You make it sound like some huge level of effort. I'll warrant it took less effort than @drop bear's fantastic (or hideous - take your choice) tie-dyed dogi. Probably no more than having a patch sewn on a sleeve, or the hemming I had done on a pair of suit pants. In each case, the benefit was minimal, as was the effort.


he went to a professional embroidery expert, that's not the same as sewing your Hem so you don't trip over your own pants.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> he went to a professional embroidery expert, that's not the same as sewing your Hem so you don't trip over your own pants.


Taking the pants to an alterations place takes about the same effort as taking a belt to an embroiderer. The pants wouldn't have tripped me, they just wouldn't have looked as good. So, I dropped them off, then picked them up later. I'm guessing that's about what he did with the belt.


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## shihansmurf (Sep 8, 2017)

This tread took a rather petulant turn.

I have a couple of neat embroidered belts that some of my students bought me over the  years. I have them hanging up in my man cave. I think they look cool.

I don't really see the issue with people wearing whatever they want and is acceptable within their organization. Hell, if I decided one day to start wearing a plaid belt in my family's tartan I would and frankly it would mean the same as any other rank belt.  I think we make too much of what is essentially a matter of cosmetics.

In my school I have decoupled rank and authority. The belts signify what a student should know and what performance measures they are consistently hitting. Authority is whoever is teaching and everyone else. This has seemed to help fix most of these issues.

Wear stripes, don't wear stripes.  Embroider your belt, don't embroider your belts. Wear sashes, different colored tee shirts to denote rough skill levels, or just work out in gym clothes. Just train. The rest is just silly distractions.

Just my view,
Mark


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## drop bear (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well can't argue with that, out of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt, make you train on your own, throw rotten fruit at you, look slightly dis please , ?



If your belt is important then your training is important. If you worked hard for it and deserved it then you should be allowed to appreciate it. Like any achievement.

One of our guys got yelled at for forgetting his blue and throwing on a white.


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## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

shihansmurf said:


> This tread took a rather petulant turn.
> 
> I have a couple of neat embroidered belts that some of my students bought me over the  years. I have them hanging up in my man cave. I think they look cool.
> 
> ...


Exactly.  Some people like to be MA fashion police.

Perhaps this is why we have a strict uniform policy - so people don't take it upon themselves to decide what they and subsequently everyone else should be wearing and/or trying to make some sort of stupid individual statement. 

We keep it simple - plain white karate gi, organization's kanji on the left chest,  organization's logo on the left arm.  Wear the belt you were issued; no choice of embroidered or not, language, font, stripes, etc.  Just wear it.  If you can't handle that, find somewhere else to train.  If you want to express yourself through your attire, have fun with "you being you," just "be you" somewhere else.


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2017)

You can always have fun being you - with me. Up to green belt you had to wear black gi. From brown to black you could wear whatever the hell you want. Obviously, if you wear something stupid - it won't go well for you. And I'm sure the fashion police would have fits with how we dressed. F the fashion police.

My Black Belts. ladies and gentlemen, every one of them. They went through hell earning the right to wear what they want.

I'm the only one in white. Traditionalist all the way, that's me.


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## Rough Rider (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> ut of interest what would they do if you turned up in the wrong black belt,



A little good-natured teasing and about 25 push-ups.  One time I forgot my belt, but my daughter's belt was in my bag.  She was a 2nd Dan, but I was a 1st Dan at the time.  I found some black tape and covered up 1 stripe.  Nobody noticed her name on my belt, or that it was a little small (my daughter is 19, so it's not like I was wearing a little kid belt.)


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Exactly.  Some people like to be MA fashion police.
> 
> Perhaps this is why we have a strict uniform policy - so people don't take it upon themselves to decide what they and subsequently everyone else should be wearing and/or trying to make some sort of stupid individual statement.
> 
> We keep it simple - plain white karate gi, organization's kanji on the left chest,  organization's logo on the left arm.  Wear the belt you were issued; no choice of embroidered or not, language, font, stripes, etc.  Just wear it.  If you can't handle that, find somewhere else to train.  If you want to express yourself through your attire, have fun with "you being you," just "be you" somewhere else.


it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> You can always have fun being you - with me. Up to green belt you had to wear black gi. From brown to black you could wear whatever the hell you want. Obviously, if you wear something stupid - it won't go well for you. And I'm sure the fashion police would have fits with how we dressed. F the fashion police.
> 
> My Black Belts. ladies and gentlemen, every one of them. They went through hell earning the right to wear what they want.
> 
> ...


Most look alright apart from the guy in the flag gi. I always thought those looked stupid. Also is the guy in the front row wearing jeans and a gi jacket?...that's a very odd combo lol


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

Rough Rider said:


> A little good-natured teasing and about 25 push-ups.  One time I forgot my belt, but my daughter's belt was in my bag.  She was a 2nd Dan, but I was a 1st Dan at the time.  I found some black tape and covered up 1 stripe.  Nobody noticed her name on my belt, or that it was a little small (my daughter is 19, so it's not like I was wearing a little kid belt.)


well that's a good thing, those 25 extra push ups might save your life, but really, you do 25 push ups as a punishment,you must be an adult to have a 19 yo , have you no sense of,dignity? id laugh in their face if they said that to me


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that's a good thing, those 25 extra push ups might save your life, but really, you do 25 push ups as a punishment,you must be an adult to have a 19 yo , have you no sense of,dignity? id laugh in their face if they said that to me


Yeah I'm sure you would


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## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother for me


Oh I know!  Seido is soooo oppressive!!!  No individuality!!!  We're all just numbers to them!!!

How about everyone wearing the same thing so everyone's on the same level and there's no "My gi has sooo much more bling than yours!"  How about everyone wearing the same thing so people aren't hung up what they're wearing and can just shut up and train?

I don't have anything against what @Buka said and does.  I'm not fashion police by any stretch of the imagination.  If I was his student, I'd wear a plain gi and be done with it.

The Stars and Stripes Elvis gi (he designed it and paid for those guys like Bill Wallace's gi) that one of Buka's guys is wearing is pretty cool in a comedic way.  It's just not for me.


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me


Wait so you're going on about freedom of expression yet yet this all started because of you talking crap about people who get their belts embroided hmm...take a minute to think about that


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## Buka (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Most look alright apart from the guy in the flag gi. I always thought those looked stupid. Also is the guy in the front row wearing jeans and a gi jacket?...that's a very odd combo lol





JR 137 said:


> Oh I know!  Seido is soooo oppressive!!!  No individuality!!!  We're all just numbers to them!!!
> 
> How about everyone wearing the same thing so everyone's on the same level and there's no "My gi has sooo much more bling than yours!"  How about everyone wearing the same thing so people aren't hung up what they're wearing and can just shut up and train?
> 
> ...



The guy in front is wearing a jeans gi top, yes. The pants were that color, but regular material if I remember correctly. He was a twenty year military man, underwater demo guy, but really sweet. He's a merc now.

And, sure, make fun of my flag gi! [I'm giving you the raspberry righ now!] That flag gi originally belonged to one of my instructors, Joe Lewis. It shrunk so he gave it to me. I love when that happens. 

I then wore that gi as part of a U.S team representing our country in international competition. And I loved that gi, it's got some history to it. I passed it down to "Chink" the guy wearing it in that photo. He was an undercover cop and one of the smartest fighters I've ever trained, also one of the nicest.


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Oh I know!  Seido is soooo oppressive!!!  No individuality!!!  We're all just numbers to them!!!
> 
> How about everyone wearing the same thing so everyone's on the same level and there's no "My gi has sooo much more bling than yours!"  How about everyone wearing the same thing so people aren't hung up what they're wearing and can just shut up and train?
> 
> ...


but in the magical way these threads go round and get back to the beginning, they are not all wearing the same, they have different coloured belts as " bling".
uniforms are generaly prescribed by institutions  that wish to remove individuality, and then they separate people only by ascribed rank.

there is actually no need for them apart from supressing individuality, they could all turn up in sports wear and still be as good or bad as they are


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Wait so you're going on about freedom of expression yet yet this all started because of you talking crap about people who get their belts embroided hmm...take a minute to think about that


he was doing what he was instructed to do or would be punished and humiliated in front of the group, that doesn't,count as freedom of expression, that counts as oppression


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> he was doing what he was instructed to do or would be punished and humiliated in front of the group, that doesn't,count as freedom of expression, that counts as oppression


I think you're getting confused with all your dumb posts. You were bitching about everyone having to wear the same thing saying it's not freedom of expression yet you're talking **** on guys who express themselves in their own way with their belts


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> The guy in front is wearing a jeans gi top, yes. The pants were that color, but regular material if I remember correctly. He was a twenty year military man, underwater demo guy, but really sweet. He's a merc now.
> 
> And, sure, make fun of my flag gi! [I'm giving you the raspberry righ now!] That flag gi originally belonged to one of my instructors, Joe Lewis. It shrunk so he gave it to me. I love when that happens.
> 
> I then wore that gi as part of a U.S team representing our country in international competition. And I loved that gi, it's got some history to it. I passed it down to "Chink" the guy wearing it in that photo. He was an undercover cop and one of the smartest fighters I've ever trained, also one of the nicest.


Hey not making fun of it someone chooses to wear it good on them just something I wouldn't be caught dead wearing (especially since I'm not american lol)

Trained with joe lewis? Nice he was a great fighter and martial artist but no offence but from what I've seen from him in interviews and heard other opinions on him I don't think he's a guy I'd ever click with personality wise. Not saying he's a bad guy or anything just not the kind of person I'd get along with. I could be wrong though there's only so much these things show but as I say I have a lot of respect for his skills and sure he was a great teacher. 

Also I very much doubt that nickname would be considered politically correct these days lol


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> I think you're getting confused with all your dumb posts. You were bitching about everyone having to wear the same thing saying it's not freedom of expression yet you're talking **** on guys who express themselves in their own way with their belts


i asked him what would happen if he turned up in an unstripped belt and he said he would be punished with press ups, at least read the thread

wearing only what your allowed to wear, is not freedom of expression or anything else


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> i asked him what would happen if he turned up in an unstripped belt and he said he would be punished with press ups, at least read the thread
> 
> wearing only what your allowed to wear, is not freedom of expression or anything else


And again that's not what I'm talking about


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> And again that's not what I'm talking about


no its what I'm talking about, see, your trying to curtail my freedom of expression now, it must be catching


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## MA_Student (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> no its what I'm talking about, see, your trying to curtail my freedom of expression now, it must be catching


Better than catching what you're passing around


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## jobo (Sep 8, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Better than catching what you're passing around


don't worry i think your immune! To common sense


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## drop bear (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me



Yeah but it also fosters teamwork and commitment to the cause. You have played a fundamentalist argument here where one thing must mean all the things. 

It doesn't have to. You can start and stop at any point.

Hence why pretty much everyone else in my gym is in a team GI.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> You can always have fun being you - with me. Up to green belt you had to wear black gi. From brown to black you could wear whatever the hell you want. Obviously, if you wear something stupid - it won't go well for you. And I'm sure the fashion police would have fits with how we dressed. F the fashion police.
> 
> My Black Belts. ladies and gentlemen, every one of them. They went through hell earning the right to wear what they want.
> 
> ...


I might adopt that policy when it matters. I decided on black gi when I started my program/curriculum, but I'm not married to it. I've been pondering how much benefit there is to uniforms (I think there is some), and relaxing it later might be a satisfactory answer.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> it doesn't sound like your group is big on individuality and freedom of expression, yes i think i would be finding a,group a little less obsessive about uniform, with uniform comes uniformity and soon after the right to be an individual is removed,its all a bit big brother or the moonies for me


Oddly, I've never experienced that, though the programs I trained in were far more persnickety about uniforms than I am. You are once again positing a cause and effect that is not in evidence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Oh I know!  Seido is soooo oppressive!!!  No individuality!!!  We're all just numbers to them!!!
> 
> How about everyone wearing the same thing so everyone's on the same level and there's no "My gi has sooo much more bling than yours!"  How about everyone wearing the same thing so people aren't hung up what they're wearing and can just shut up and train?
> 
> ...


Every professional sports team uses uniforms, even where it's not an issue of identification (like the Ryder cup). Yet, those players don't lose their ability to improvise or be individuals. Odd, ain't it?


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Every professional sports team uses uniforms, even where it's not an issue of identification (like the Ryder cup). Yet, those players don't lose their ability to improvise or be individuals. Odd, ain't it?


Not according to our resident "expert" who knows all, and everything is either black or white.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

jobo said:


> but in the magical way these threads go round and get back to the beginning, they are not all wearing the same, they have different coloured belts as " bling".
> uniforms are generaly prescribed by institutions  that wish to remove individuality, and then they separate people only by ascribed rank.
> 
> there is actually no need for them apart from supressing individuality, they could all turn up in sports wear and still be as good or bad as they are


If you think different colored belts are bling, feel free.  Did you read my argument as to why it's beneficial for my organization to use them?


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

Congratulations @jobo for successfully turning a simple question into however many pages of idiotic nonsense yet again.

I respect your unique skill set.


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## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

Buka said:


> The guy in front is wearing a jeans gi top, yes. The pants were that color, but regular material if I remember correctly. He was a twenty year military man, underwater demo guy, but really sweet. He's a merc now.
> 
> And, sure, make fun of my flag gi! [I'm giving you the raspberry righ now!] That flag gi originally belonged to one of my instructors, Joe Lewis. It shrunk so he gave it to me. I love when that happens.
> 
> I then wore that gi as part of a U.S team representing our country in international competition. And I loved that gi, it's got some history to it. I passed it down to "Chink" the guy wearing it in that photo. He was an undercover cop and one of the smartest fighters I've ever trained, also one of the nicest.


I wasn't hatin' on his gi; I love it.  I just wouldn't wear it, unless of course it had the history that particular one has.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I wasn't hatin' on his gi; I love it.  I just wouldn't wear it, unless of course it had the history that particular one has.


I'd have a hard time wearing it, even then. It's far outside being "me". I don't like those things - it's a good thing someone else does, so I don't have to wear them.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd have a hard time wearing it, even then. It's far outside being "me". I don't like those things - it's a good thing someone else does, so I don't have to wear them.


Yup.  Kinda like a tattoo you see on someone else that's really cool, but you'd never get it yourself.

Edit:  I have a tattoo.  I didn't mean not getting a tattoo, just not getting the one that looks cool on someone else.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 8, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'd have a hard time wearing it, even then. It's far outside being "me". I don't like those things - it's a good thing someone else does, so I don't have to wear them.


Actually, the more I think about it, I'd have just as hard a time not wearing it as wearing it.  The guilt of not wearing a rift my teacher give me that was something sentimental to him would eat at me.  It would get relegated as a strictly special occasion gi.  And I'd be pretty self conscious while wearing it, but I'd suck it up and "take one for the team."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Yup.  Kinda like a tattoo you see on someone else that's really cool, but you'd never get it yourself.
> 
> Edit:  I have a tattoo.  I didn't mean not getting a tattoo, just not getting the one that looks cool on someone else.


Yes, like that. I've considered a tattoo, and never come across one that seemed right for me. But I kinda dig them. I know some folks who have some impressive ones I really like - but I wouldn't get.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 8, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Actually, the more I think about it, I'd have just as hard a time not wearing it as wearing it.  The guilt of not wearing a rift my teacher give me that was something sentimental to him would eat at me.  It would get relegated as a strictly special occasion gi.  And I'd be pretty self conscious while wearing it, but I'd suck it up and "take one for the team."


I suspect that gift was given because it would be worn. I wouldn't have that issue - none of my instructors would wear that, either. 

Somehow, I'm actually more likely to wear DB's tie-dyed gi. I'm not sure why, but every now and then, tie-dyed stuff just works for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 8, 2017)

Azulx said:


> Do you like to keep your same black belt, or get a new one when you test and why?


I keep my old black belt. I wash it, use stick to beat on it, use sand paper to rub on it, until it looks like over 100 years old. Unfortunately one day I used my black belt to help someone to pull his car out of ditch, it broke. Now I have a new one and I lose my desire to make it "look old". To pretend as a young black belt just make me feel good.


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## Buka (Sep 9, 2017)

I contacted my buddy Chink today. The name "Chink" was not about nationality, it was about how he fought. If you had a chink in your armor, he would find it, and he would find it very quickly. Really, really smart fighter.

Anyway, I asked him if he still had that gi top. He said it was probably in his cellar some place, would find it and send it to me. If any of you guys ever make it to Maui, let me know, I'll wear it when we work out. Hopefully, it will amuse you.  It will sure as hell amuse me.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 9, 2017)

Azulx said:


> I just want to know people's opinions on black belts. Do you like to keep your same black belt, or get a new one when you test and why?



I have seen people do this after completing full rank in their martial arts...............

















I think thats a great thing to do, show casing your achievement, some people spend a fortune on a proper wall frame mount.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> I have seen people do this after completing full rank in their martial arts...............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stupid question... what do they wear when they train?
Another one... I see an orange belt in there.  Do they do that for every belt?  It must take up a lot of space if their organization uses a lot of belts.

Mine old belts are shoved in a closet.  My 6 year old daughter asked my wife to buy me a belt display rack for Christmas 2 years ago so I can put my old belts on it.  It's still in the box because I have no idea where I would hang up without anyone seeing it.

Edit: maybe I'll hang it up in their playroom if they see it and ask why it's not being used


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Stupid question... what do they wear when they train?
> Another one... I see an orange belt in there.  Do they do that for every belt?  It must take up a lot of space if their organization uses a lot of belts.
> 
> Mine old belts are shoved in a closet.  My 6 year old daughter asked my wife to buy me a belt display rack for Christmas 2 years ago so I can put my old belts on it.  It's still in the box because I have no idea where I would hang up without anyone seeing it.
> ...



The basement is mostly my space. On the walls, I have a few award-winning photographs I've taken over the years, my Marine Corps meritorious promotion to Sergeant, my Honorable Discharge, and my Nidan certificate. I call it my "I love me" wall. No one sees it but me, and I only see it a couple times a year. I may put up a belt rack at some point, but I am pretty lazy, I may not.

I don't care what anyone thinks about it. It's not for them. And it's not that important to me, apparently. If my house were to be destroyed, I'd be sorry to lose those items, but I'd still be me.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Every professional sports team uses uniforms, even where it's not an issue of identification (like the Ryder cup). Yet, those players don't lose their ability to improvise or be individuals. Odd, ain't it?





drop bear said:


> Yeah but it also fosters teamwork and commitment to the cause. You have played a fundamentalist argument here where one thing must mean all the things.
> 
> It doesn't have to. You can start and stop at any point.
> 
> Hence why pretty much everyone else in my gym is in a team GI.


well by defintion teamwork and commitment to a/ the cause removes individuality, that why organisations prescribe uniforms, to encourage behaviour to their benefit and not necessarily to the benefit of the individual, that may make not much difference or it could lead to an individual giving up his life in a armed forces situation


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> If you think different colored belts are bling, feel free.  Did you read my argument as to why it's beneficial for my organization to use them?


yes, there is no doubt why its beneficial to the organisation, I'm waiting for some claim of why its beneficial to the individual?


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Every professional sports team uses uniforms, even where it's not an issue of identification (like the Ryder cup). Yet, those players don't lose their ability to improvise or be individuals. Odd, ain't it?


id argue that the ryder,cup teams,do wear them for identifications , not for team mates but for the,crowd to know,who to boo.

but if their purpose isn't identification then what is their purpose? It can only be to remove individuality, there is no other logical reason to do so


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> well by defintion teamwork and commitment to a/ the cause removes individuality, that why organisations prescribe uniforms, to encourage behaviour to their benefit and not necessarily to the benefit of the individual, that may make not much difference or it could lead to an individual giving up his life in a armed forces situation


Um, no. Teamwork does not remove individuality.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, there is no doubt why its beneficial to the organisation, I'm waiting for some claim of why its beneficial to the individual?


Anything that makes it easier for the instructor to teach should be to the benefit of the instructee. An individual's partners knowing what techniques he can and cannot handle (speaking mostly of standing throws) is definitely to their benefit.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> id argue that the ryder,cup teams,do wear them for identifications , not for team mates but for the,crowd to know,who to boo.
> 
> but if their purpose isn't identification then what is their purpose? It can only be to remove individuality, there is no other logical reason to do so


Your statements seem to assert that teamwork is the opposite of individuality. That is not the case. When I teach managers how to better develop a sense of team, part of that is better recognizing the differences (strenghts and weaknesses) of the individuals. Making them all the same does not create more teamwork.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Your statements seem to assert that teamwork is the opposite of individuality. That is not the case. When I teach managers how to better develop a sense of team, part of that is better recognizing the differences (strenghts and weaknesses) of the individuals. Making them all the same does not create more teamwork.


removing or reducing personality traits or behaviours that are not compatable with the goals of the organisation is a) good for team work and b) removing individuality.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Sep 9, 2017)

for me if i was a 1st Dan i will keep my belt until it gets old thats how 1st dan is not unless your belt old and wrinkely and has a lot of tare then you have to change it


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> removing or reducing personality traits or behaviours that are not compatable with the goals of the organisation is a) good for team work and b) removing individuality.


Teamwork doesn't require removing, nor reducing, personality traits to any greater extent than good communication does.


----------



## Buka (Sep 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Stupid question... what do they wear when they train?
> Another one... I see an orange belt in there.  Do they do that for every belt?  It must take up a lot of space if their organization uses a lot of belts.
> 
> Mine old belts are shoved in a closet.  My 6 year old daughter asked my wife to buy me a belt display rack for Christmas 2 years ago so I can put my old belts on it.  It's still in the box because I have no idea where I would hang up without anyone seeing it.
> ...



I hear ya, bro. I use the closet too.

 

Otherwise they get like snakes on a plane. I only purchased one of them, which I've worn for a while now, the others were awarded to me over the years. I had the new one embroided in Japanese. It says "Rank is meaningless".


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes, there is no doubt why its beneficial to the organisation, I'm waiting for some claim of why its beneficial to the individual?


You seriously have no idea how belts are beneficial to individuals?  I know you're sharper than that.  Belts are beneficial for the individual for about as many reasons as there are people wearing them.

I used to be motivated by them when I was in my late teens-early 20s.  Not so much anymore.  Now it benefits me by the same reasons it benefits my organization; it makes my life easier when I'm at an affiliated dojo, and keeps competition on a somewhat level playing field if the mood should strike me.  I competed in our organization's annual tourney last year, and am contemplating doing it again next month.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Um, no. Teamwork does not remove individuality.


as a


JR 137 said:


> You seriously have no idea how belts are beneficial to individuals?  I know you're sharper than that.  Belts are beneficial for the individual for about as many reasons as there are people wearing them.
> 
> I used to be motivated by them when I was in my late teens-early 20s.  Not so much anymore.  Now it benefits me by the same reasons it benefits my organization; it makes my life easier when I'm at an affiliated dojo, and keeps competition on a somewhat level playing field if the mood should strike me.  I competed in our organization's annual tourney last year, and am contemplating doing it again next month.


are they motivated by pieces of coloured cloth or by having passed a test of competency?

let's make it simple, let's say there are two students attending the same class, they started at much the same time, they have passed the same grades, but one, let's call him jobo, doesn't wear his grade round his waist. whilst the other one, , let's call him JR does, what benefit does Jr get from wearing a belt, that jobo misses out on ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> as a
> 
> are they motivated by pieces of coloured cloth or by having passed a test of competency?
> 
> let's make it simple, let's say there are two students attending the same class, they started at much the same time, they have passed the same grades, but one, let's call him jobo, doesn't wear his grade round his waist. whilst the other one, , let's call him JR does, what benefit does Jr get from wearing a belt, that jobo misses out on ?


He already answered that, Jobo:



JR 137 said:


> Now it benefits me by the same reasons it benefits my organization; it makes my life easier when I'm at an affiliated dojo, and keeps competition on a somewhat level playing field if the mood should strike me. I competed in our organization's annual tourney last year, and am contemplating doing it again next month.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> well by defintion teamwork and commitment to a/ the cause removes individuality, that why organisations prescribe uniforms, to encourage behaviour to their benefit and not necessarily to the benefit of the individual, that may make not much difference or it could lead to an individual giving up his life in a armed forces situation



The idea that you are the most important thing in the world is not individuality. It is self absorbtion.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> as a
> 
> are they motivated by pieces of coloured cloth or by having passed a test of competency?
> 
> let's make it simple, let's say there are two students attending the same class, they started at much the same time, they have passed the same grades, but one, let's call him jobo, doesn't wear his grade round his waist. whilst the other one, , let's call him JR does, what benefit does Jr get from wearing a belt, that jobo misses out on ?



One is not crapping in the face of the guy who gave him that grade. That has to count for something.

You don't understand the link between mental training and success though.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Teamwork doesn't require removing, nor reducing, personality traits to any greater extent than good communication does.


of course it does, being a team player is a personality trait, if you don't have that trait, you can't be a team player unless you change your personality.

i cant be in a team unless I'm in charge of the team, which always happen, because I'm out for number one, not for the team, so they put me in charge,


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The idea that you are the most important thing in the world is not individuality. It is self absorbtion.


I'm the most important thing in the world to me( with the possible exception of,some children i know)


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course it does, being a team player is a personality trait, if you don't have that trait, you can't be a team player unless you change your personality.
> 
> i cant be in a team unless I'm in charge of the team, which always happen, because I'm out for number one, not for the team, so they put me in charge,



I dont think you understand how teamwork works either.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> One is not crapping in the face of the guy who gave him that grade. That has to count for something.
> 
> You don't understand the link between mental training and success though.


didn't he earn the grade rather than be given it?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm the most important thing in the world to me( with the possible exception of,some children i know)



Yeah you and every other millennial. Which is why we have the limp wristed martial arts we do.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I dont think you understand how teamwork works either.


oh i do, they work great if i run them and not at all well if someone else is in charge of me. Then they replace the leader for not running a good team,


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah you and every other millennial. Which is why we have the limp wristed martial arts we do.


you've lost me with that one?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> didn't he earn the grade rather than be given it?



Both.......... He eaned it. So someone gave it to him. Vey rarely can you tell your instructor in martial arts to just give you a grade. Mabye TKD. Not sure how that one works.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Both.......... He eaned it. So someone gave it to him. Vey rarely can you tell your instructor in martial arts to just give you a grade. Mabye TKD. Not sure how that one works.


no he earnt, and in most schools paid through the nose to be tested for it, at no point did anyone GIVE him anything.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> you've lost me with that one?



Ok. The McDojo is designed to fill the needs of the individual. Which is generally a desire to get easy answers. Rather than good results.

People who succeed find an expert and give up their indiviuality to work for something more important than themselves.

Eg. Dillman.





Hard work is hard. Individually generally doesn't cut it.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> no he earnt, and in most schools paid through the nose to be tested for it, at no point did anyone GIVE him anything.



The ones that focus on the individual might. That is my point. People pay for belts. Belts mean nothing. Training means nothing. Generally sub standard training.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> He already answered that, Jobo:


no he hasnt


----------



## MA_Student (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course it does, being a team player is a personality trait, if you don't have that trait, you can't be a team player unless you change your personality.
> 
> i cant be in a team unless I'm in charge of the team, which always happen, because I'm out for number one, not for the team, so they put me in charge,


I think that just shows what type of person you are


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Ok. The McDojo is designed to fill the needs of the individual. Which is generally a desire to get easy answers. Rather than good results.
> 
> People who succeed find an expert and give up their indiviuality to work for something more important than themselves.
> 
> ...


that's a nonsensical argument, i train to be the best i can be, because I'm the most important person in the world to me( except for children) to give up my individuality to achieve that would mean in not me anymore,


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> I think that just shows what type of person you are


successful?
I'm the sort of person who has to be in charge , that's not in its self a bad thing,


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> The ones that focus on the individual might. That is my point. People pay for belts. Belts mean nothing. Training means nothing. Generally sub standard training.


right we agree, belts are of no value,


----------



## MA_Student (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> successful?
> I'm the sort of person who has to be in charge , that's not in its self a bad thing,


Yeah actually it is it shows you can't work with other people, it shows you're big headed and think you're better than everyone, it shows you don't listen to people, it shows you don't value other people and from this thread that's also very obvious.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> Yeah actually it is it shows you can't work with other people, it shows you're big headed and think you're better than everyone, it shows you don't listen to people, it shows you don't value other people and from this thread that's also very obvious.


your not going to go far in business with that attitude


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> right we agree, belts are of no value,



If my training has no value. I dont agree that my training has no value.

If my training has value. Then my belt, which is the manifestation of that training has value.


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's a nonsensical argument, i train to be the best i can be, because I'm the most important person in the world to me( except for children) to give up my individuality to achieve that would mean in not me anymore,



You would become a better you. But you are not going to because you refuse to give up habits that hold you back.

Which is exactly the point of that argument. And the video.


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If my training has no value. I dont agree that my training has no value.
> 
> If my training has value. Then my belt, which is the manifestation of that training has value.


your training has manifested its self into a belt? neat trick.

so if your belt was,stolen, they would have,stolen your training as  well.?


----------



## MA_Student (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> your not going to go far in business with that attitude


I'd rather be a decent person frankly


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You would become a better you. But you are not going to because you refuse to give up habits that hold you back.
> 
> Which is exactly the point of that argument. And the video.


which of my habits are holding back my training ?


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> your not going to go far in business with that attitude



Experts disagree. 
Richard Branson: Teamwork wins in a crisis


----------



## MA_Student (Sep 9, 2017)

Tell you what everyone lets just stop talking to this guy it's going no where


----------



## jobo (Sep 9, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> I'd rather be a decent person frankly


but you've not even managed that!


----------



## drop bear (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> which of my habits are holding back my training ?



Your unwillingness to believe something is more important than you. We could not produce fight teams like that. Because everybody needs to sacrifice for everyone else or the job just doesn't get done.

If your training is all about you. Then why do I put in the extra time?

And everybody just holds everybody back rather than driving each other forward.

But MMA is a different culture to your Mcdojo culture you describe.


----------



## MA_Student (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you've not even managed that!


A lot better than you have


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> no he hasnt


Yes, I did, and you quoted it, BTW...


JR 137 said:


> You seriously have no idea how belts are beneficial to individuals?  I know you're sharper than that.  Belts are beneficial for the individual for about as many reasons as there are people wearing them.
> 
> I used to be motivated by them when I was in my late teens-early 20s.  Not so much anymore.  Now it benefits me by the same reasons it benefits my organization; it makes my life easier when I'm at an affiliated dojo, and keeps competition on a somewhat level playing field if the mood should strike me.  I competed in our organization's annual tourney last year, and am contemplating doing it again next month.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> as a
> 
> are they motivated by pieces of coloured cloth or by having passed a test of competency?
> 
> let's make it simple, let's say there are two students attending the same class, they started at much the same time, they have passed the same grades, but one, let's call him jobo, doesn't wear his grade round his waist. whilst the other one, , let's call him JR does, what benefit does Jr get from wearing a belt, that jobo misses out on ?



I can't answer for how nor why others are motivated by belts.  I've heard a lot of different answers from a lot of different people.  Remember... just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone or anyone else.

The physical belt doesn't motivate me.  Improvement motivates me.  When I get a new shiny belt, it's definitely because I improved.  Otherwise I either wouldn't get a new one or I would've skipped the previous one.  So if that means I'm still motivated by new belts, then so be it.  If there wasn't a belt but the process was exactly the same, it wouldn't change my motivation one bit.  Saying "I'm a brown belt" is quicker and easier than saying "I'm a level X student."  It's easier for a teacher I'm unfamiliar with to see my belt than it is to ask me what level student I am and have me explain what I know and don't know.  So belts make my life easier.  

If your hypothetical "Jobo" didn't wear his belt, but hypothetical "JR" wore his...

In the hypothetical small dojo the hypothetical "JR" and "Jobo" train at together, nothing.  Once they step out of that hypothetical dojo and into an affiliated one, hypothetical "Jobo" would be given a white belt, be made to practice solely with the white belts, and would only work on white belt syllabus material. 

In the real dojo I train at, if you decided you didn't want to wear the belt my teacher gave you (and approved gi), you would be shown the door.  The rules are the rules, if you can't follow them for whatever reason, leave.  No hard feelings, it's just not the right fit for you.  We've got a way of doing things, and you'd be told those ways before you joined.  If you can follow the rules, welcome aboard; if not, there's other places that have different rules and will gladly welcome you.  They'll hopefully welcome you, anyway.

People from different organizations and styles have inquired about joining our dojo and asked if they can wear a belt from their previous/other school. The answer is always no.  A guest would be allowed to wear whatever they want, a formal student isn't.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course it does, being a team player is a personality trait, if you don't have that trait, you can't be a team player unless you change your personality.
> 
> i cant be in a team unless I'm in charge of the team, which always happen, because I'm out for number one, not for the team, so they put me in charge,


Your understanding of social psychology is lacking.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm the most important thing in the world to me( with the possible exception of,some children i know)


And you clearly don't understand the benefit (to you) of a team. Nor that the person looking out for number one is actually the least well-equipped for leadership.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

jobo said:


> oh i do, they work great if i run them and not at all well if someone else is in charge of me. Then they replace the leader for not running a good team,


It sounds to me like the problem is that the team doesn't work well because of your lack of teamwork, and improves when you take a more marginal role.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Your understanding of social psychology is lacking.


Amongst many other social things.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It sounds to me like the problem is that the team doesn't work well because of your lack of teamwork, and improves when you take a more marginal role.


Your post reminded me of the famous Allen Iverson "Practice?" interview.  Especially the "How am I supposed to make my teammates better by practicing?" line at the end.  That interview never gets old.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 9, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> Your post reminded me of the famous Allen Iverson "Practice?" interview.  Especially the "How am I supposed to make my teammates better by practicing?" line at the end.  That interview never gets old.


I hadn't seen that before. Wow.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Sep 9, 2017)

I feel like I need a shower.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 9, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I hadn't seen that before. Wow.


So you're that guy I heard of who hadn't seen it.  I was wondering who it was, but I didn't suspect it was you. 

Iverson's been harassed about it several times, in good fun.  He's able to have a good laugh at himself about it...


----------



## Buka (Sep 10, 2017)

I remember when that aired, I remember thinking, Allen Iverson just doesn't get it it. And what a shame, what a wasted talent. Practice?

Let me tell you a story about Larry Bird. Slow as a cow, clumsy, couldn't jump. And one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Why? _Practice._
I used to work lunches at my buddy's bar across the street from Boston Garden. I'd go over to the garden to watch Bird practice after my shift. He would be on the floor with two ball boys, and two big wire baskets with basketballs in them. He would stand on the three point line in the corner by the baseline. They would bounce him a ball and he' shoot it, then take a short side step, and they would bounce him another, and he'd shoot it and take another step. He would go all the way to the other side of the court, one step at a time, then reverse and come back. One step, one shot.

Then - he'd take one step backwards, moving farther out, and repeat the entire process. All the way over, a shot at each step. Then take a step back and do it again.

Then he would do it with his other hand. It was one of the most boring things to watch, like watching paint dry. Until you thought about what he was doing. He'd do this for over an hour. THEN - he would start practicing. The previous was just his damn warm up. And he would do this every single day.

If Allen Iverson had had that kind of work ethic he'd probably have more championships than anyone that ever lived. The damn fool.

And it's just like Martial training. Practice? Who needs practice?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> I remember when that aired, I remember thinking, Allen Iverson just doesn't get it it. And what a shame, what a wasted talent. Practice?
> 
> Let me tell you a story about Larry Bird. Slow as a cow, clumsy, couldn't jump. And one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Why? _Practice._
> I used to work lunches at my buddy's bar across the street from Boston Garden. I'd go over to the garden to watch Bird practice after my shift. He would be on the floor with two ball boys, and two big wire baskets with basketballs in them. He would stand on the three point line in the corner by the baseline. They would bounce him a ball and he' shoot it, then take a short side step, and they would bounce him another, and he'd shoot it and take another step. He would go all the way to the other side of the court, one step at a time, then reverse and come back. One step, one shot.
> ...


Are there any famous people you haven't interacted with, brother? Even my wife jokes about you, because of the stories I've passed along to her.


----------



## JR 137 (Sep 10, 2017)

Buka said:


> I remember when that aired, I remember thinking, Allen Iverson just doesn't get it it. And what a shame, what a wasted talent. Practice?
> 
> Let me tell you a story about Larry Bird. Slow as a cow, clumsy, couldn't jump. And one of the greatest basketball players of all time. Why? _Practice._
> I used to work lunches at my buddy's bar across the street from Boston Garden. I'd go over to the garden to watch Bird practice after my shift. He would be on the floor with two ball boys, and two big wire baskets with basketballs in them. He would stand on the three point line in the corner by the baseline. They would bounce him a ball and he' shoot it, then take a short side step, and they would bounce him another, and he'd shoot it and take another step. He would go all the way to the other side of the court, one step at a time, then reverse and come back. One step, one shot.
> ...


I've heard the same thing from multiple sources, including an athletic trainer friend of mine who worked in the NBA for another team.  Everyone around him said he was the first guy in the gym, and the last guy out.  Always.  Michael Jordan was reportedly the same way.

Guys like that set the tone for the team.  I mean, if you're one of the every day guys on the team and think you're talented enough to not have to put the extra work in, and you see this guy who's hands down the best doing this, it makes you feel like you need to too.  Stuff like that is infectious.

In all fairness to Iverson, a few NBA friends of mine have said as much of a "me me me" guy as he was and came off to be, he was a great teammate in a lot of ways.


----------



## Buka (Sep 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Are there any famous people you haven't interacted with, brother? Even my wife jokes about you, because of the stories I've passed along to her.



You know, working across the street and all, and the guys who worked in Boston Garden used to come in for lunch everyday - how could I not go and watch great athletes train? Used to make myself a roast beef sub, or pepper and egg, and sit down front row, center court.




 
It was fun. Loved watching the work ethic of men at the top of their game. Lots to learn there.


----------



## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Experts disagree.
> Richard Branson: Teamwork wins in a crisis


there no doubt that team work has worked for RB, he is a billionaire, the questions is rather has team work worked for all the 10s of thousands of people who be worked for him over the,decades, who are not billionaires


----------



## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And you clearly don't understand the benefit (to you) of a team. Nor that the person looking out for number one is actually the least well-equipped for leadership.


but they are most commonly the ones who get promoted into positions of leadership, i do understand the benefits to me of a team. The,ability to exploit a team for your own betterment is a prime,skill n business


----------



## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It sounds to me like the problem is that the team doesn't work well because of your lack of teamwork, and improves when you take a more marginal role.


no it improves when i take a managerial role, I'm very good at motivating people to do what i want them to do, which are generaly things that get me a pay rise or a promotion or both.

I'm very poor at doing things that get others a promotion and not me, thanks doesn't play well at paying the bills


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> but they are most commonly the ones who get promoted into positions of leadership, i do understand the benefits to me of a team. The,ability to exploit a team for your own betterment is a prime,skill n business


Um, no.


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## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I can't answer for how nor why others are motivated by belts.  I've heard a lot of different answers from a lot of different people.  Remember... just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone or anyone else.
> 
> The physical belt doesn't motivate me.  Improvement motivates me.  When I get a new shiny belt, it's definitely because I improved.  Otherwise I either wouldn't get a new one or I would've skipped the previous one.  So if that means I'm still motivated by new belts, then so be it.  If there wasn't a belt but the process was exactly the same, it wouldn't change my motivation one bit.  Saying "I'm a brown belt" is quicker and easier than saying "I'm a level X student."  It's easier for a teacher I'm unfamiliar with to see my belt than it is to ask me what level student I am and have me explain what I know and don't know.  So belts make my life easier.
> 
> ...


it ao


JR 137 said:


> I can't answer for how nor why others are motivated by belts.  I've heard a lot of different answers from a lot of different people.  Remember... just because something doesn't make sense to you doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone or anyone else.
> 
> The physical belt doesn't motivate me.  Improvement motivates me.  When I get a new shiny belt, it's definitely because I improved.  Otherwise I either wouldn't get a new one or I would've skipped the previous one.  So if that means I'm still motivated by new belts, then so be it.  If there wasn't a belt but the process was exactly the same, it wouldn't change my motivation one bit.  Saying "I'm a brown belt" is quicker and easier than saying "I'm a level X student."  It's easier for a teacher I'm unfamiliar with to see my belt than it is to ask me what level student I am and have me explain what I know and don't know.  So belts make my life easier.
> 
> ...


it sounds like you need external validation of your improvement, your improvement exists if you get a badge and a certificate or not, why do you need others to recognise it in order to feel good about yourself?

my goal is to improve myself physically month on month, part of that is karate training, but there is a far greater amount of push ups, pull ups and running. No one. Gives me a badge of honour if i do a 7min mile, there is no presentation when i do 15 pull ups , or getting an award because I've stuck at it for three years, no one cares, but me. My internal motivation drives me me on. I don't need external validation to motivate me to stick at it or try harder, 

belts seem designed for people who don't have internal drive and motivation to improve


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## webmaster786 (Sep 11, 2017)

Simply i'm 100% agree with "Rough Rider" They will provide a quick and so much easiest ways for the instructor to know what actually students has already been taught


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> belts seem designed for people who don't have internal drive and motivation to improve


It seems that way to you, because you ignore others. I enjoyed receiving every belt I've ever received. I don't recall ever being much motivated by them. I enjoyed the challenge of passing the tests and performing under stress, and the belt ceremonies were always a pleasant, but unnecessary, result. Many students would just as soon receive the belt quietly and never have it mentioned. They wear them because that's what their school does - it doesn't matter so much to them one way or another much of the time. There are points where it does also (not exclusively) fill the purpose of a trophy. For me, BB was that point. I enjoyed earning that rank, and the belt was the symbol of the rank. I don't wear it because of the trophy value. I wear it because I'm used to having that external indicator for others to use. It's "normal" to me, and I rarely think about it.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> there no doubt that team work has worked for RB, he is a billionaire, the questions is rather has team work worked for all the 10s of thousands of people who be worked for him over the,decades, who are not billionaires



Not what you said.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> it ao
> 
> it sounds like you need external validation of your improvement, your improvement exists if you get a badge and a certificate or not, why do you need others to recognise it in order to feel good about yourself?
> 
> ...



So who is an example of your method working? Who has not used external motivation to succeed?


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## JR 137 (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> it ao
> 
> it sounds like you need external validation of your improvement, your improvement exists if you get a badge and a certificate or not, why do you need others to recognise it in order to feel good about yourself?
> 
> ...


You seem to suffer from your chronic syndrome of reading certain parts of a post and coming to a conclusion without reading the entire post and writing a completely asinine response.

Case in point which completely contradicts your statement of my needing external validation of my improvement...

"If there wasn't a belt but the process was exactly the same, it wouldn't change my motivation one bit."

Missed that part, huh?   It's ok, you only quoted my post twice. Read it again; I promise it's in there.


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## JR 137 (Sep 11, 2017)

@jobo 
I'll quote myself from another post I made in a different thread.  Then again, you'll probably not read it all and come to some stupid conclusion and post absurdity...



JR 137 said:


> The first karate organization I joined was founded by two senior black belts who came from my current organization.  The curriculum up to and including shodan is about 95% the same in both.  Where they split is at nidan.  I went into my current school knowing 95% of the syllabus for the rank I left at.  It was a matter of learning 4 kata, 3 of which are pretty simple, and a series of 7 simple choreographed solo drills.  I started at white belt and tested for every rank so far.  I'm currently at 3rd kyu, and will test for 2nd kyu right around the holidays (barring injury and/or illness).  I'll be there 3 years in February.
> 
> And I wouldn't want it any other way.  I'm far better today than I ever was previously.  Testing for shodan under Nakamura will be great, and I look forward to when that happens.  Not for the rank and/or belt, but for the test itself.  I'm in no hurry though; it'll happen when it happens.  If it takes another 3 years, so be it.
> 
> Anyone hung up on rank and/or belts would've left.



For clarification, I was a 1st dan in my previous school, and preparing to test for 2nd dan when I went away to grad school.  I was scheduled to test for 2nd dan about 6 weeks after the date I had to leave.


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## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

Richard Branson


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## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> You seem to suffer from your chronic syndrome of reading certain parts of a post and coming to a conclusion without reading the entire post and writing a completely asinine response.
> 
> Case in point which completely contradicts your statement of my needing external validation of my improvement...
> 
> ...


but you would still get a,certificate, so its still external validation


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## jobo (Sep 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> So who is an example of your method working? Who has not used external motivation to succeed?


Richard Branson,

i met him when he was selling records out of a back street shop in manchester


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## JR 137 (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> but you would still get a,certificate, so its still external validation


My CI isn't too good about that stuff.  I'm missing a few, and got the ones I have a few months afterwards.  I think I know where one of them is.  I've contemplated asking him not to give them to me anymore because they just get thrown somewhere and if I find them I won't have the heart to throw them out, although I should as all they really do is take up space.

Try again.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> Richard Branson,
> 
> i met him when he was selling records out of a back street shop in manchester


"...there were times when they struggled to pool together enough money for food, which Richard says was a great motivator to follow up on calls to potential advertisers." From this site.

That's an external motivation.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "...there were times when they struggled to pool together enough money for food, which Richard says was a great motivator to follow up on calls to potential advertisers." From this site.
> 
> That's an external motivation.



His goal setting is the same as the point behind the belt system as well.

Richard Branson's 10-Step Plan for Achieving All Your Goals


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## jobo (Sep 12, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> "...there were times when they struggled to pool together enough money for food, which Richard says was a great motivator to follow up on calls to potential advertisers." From this site.
> 
> That's an external motivation.



no being hungry is definitely an internal motivator,


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 12, 2017)

jobo said:


> no being hungry is definitely an internal motivator,


Okay, not exactly the same, but I can accept that distinction- then try this quote, from the same article: "I always wanted to go out there and prove myself"


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## Tarrycat (Sep 15, 2017)

Azulx said:


> I just want to know people's opinions on black belts. Do you like to keep your same black belt, or get a new one when you test and why?



I don't worry about belts much. It's never meant anything to me. What means a lot to me is that I get to grow & to learn. I would wear a white belt, even if I had the training & the knowledge of a black belt. 

As long as I know, & my Sensei knows that I'm growing & improving, that's all that matters to me. 

Others like to measure their performance by wearing belts; to each his own, really.

My Sensei doesn't believe in an easy way to gain a belt. He will only grade you when he feels you're ready. Otherwise, he won't.


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