# Does karate need to evolve?



## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.

Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
We’ve got karate combat, but if you look at the comments there’s supposed ‘karateka’ all over their videos saying “this isn’t karate” so it’s hard to say there’s any major evolution happening within the karate community as a whole.

I was an early subscriber to the Karate Culture YT channel, and don’t hold modern karate against those who enjoy it. However the question about the lack of ‘middle age group’ people, not the young kids and not the 40+ crowd in karate shows that karate is falling behind in some metrics. 
Sure targeting children will keep dojos open and the style alive as some of those kids will be lifers themselves, but that’s a survival via life support imho. 

I believe for karate to have a renaissance and have a chance to thrive again, there need to be some changes that occur. Changes that require some people to become students again to learn new ways of doing things.

I think a style that offers 3 K training side by side with honest pressure testing can exist. I think pointing fighting dojos can exist while karate combat style dojos also become more common, heck I believe one dojo can successfully do both.

The one thing I believe most of all is this idea of never changing ‘traditions’ that are largely less than a century old is going to kill karate especially in the west.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> We’ve got karate combat, but if you look at the comments there’s supposed ‘karateka’ all over their videos saying “this isn’t karate” so it’s hard to say there’s any major evolution happening within the karate community as a whole.


This is something that happens all the time in TMAs.  People will look at videos of people who do something like blue belt Taekwondo sparring and say, "That isn't Taekwondo, it's just crappy kickboxing."  The theory is that we would spar the same way we do forms.  Of course, most people who are not elite at something are going to be some crappy version of it.  Look at how many crappy MMA fighters there are who specifically train MMA.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I believe for karate to have a renaissance and have a chance to thrive again, there need to be some changes that occur.


What kind of changes?


GojuTommy said:


> The one thing I believe most of all is this idea of never changing ‘traditions’ that are largely less than a century old is going to kill karate especially in the west.


What traditions do you think are harmful and why?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> What kind of changes?
> 
> What traditions do you think are harmful and why?


As I said much more pressure testing is one of the big ones.

I don’t see any specific tradition as harmful, I see the mindset of some in which a super strict and rigid following of tradition is harmful.
The fact that so many shy away from grappling, to focus on striking only because it’s “traditional” would be an example

I personally intend to move to a BJJ style advancement system rather than the traditional testing periods, as I have found  the 2 most common testing methods to be flawed.
1. Batch testing everyone regardless of time training or in rank.- makes newer people particularly kids feel bad when they don’t pass because of lack of time training.
2. Inviting only those who are actually ready to test- if you’re giving them the opportunity to rest hopefully it’s because you believe they’re ready for the next level. In which case why not just promote them instead of making them jump through extra hoops?


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I said much more pressure testing is one of the big ones.
> 
> I don’t see any specific tradition as harmful, I see the mindset of some in which a super strict and rigid following of tradition is harmful.
> The fact that so many shy away from grappling, to focus on striking only because it’s “traditional” would be an example
> ...


I don't know who tests the first way, it wouldn't work. The second one, why would you give them a rest?

When you write 'karate' do you do so understanding it's a generic term and there's differences between styles both in techniques and philosophy? Saying karate must change is like saying restaurants must change, it's vague and unsatisfactory. 

A style that focuses on striking because it is a striking style is not strict and rigid. Would you call Judo strict and rigid because they don't teach weapons? Or Kendo because they don't grapple? The focus is maybe narrow to you because people want to focus on one skill at a time, plenty of students go to grappling classes as well.
If you want to learn French you do a course in just French, you don't add in Mandarin, you do a course in Mandarin.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I don't know who tests the first way, it wouldn't work. The second one, why would you give them a rest?
> 
> When you write 'karate' do you do so understanding it's a generic term and there's differences between styles both in techniques and philosophy? Saying karate must change is like saying restaurants must change, it's vague and unsatisfactory.
> 
> ...


There will be exceptions but regardless of style the overwhelming majority of karate schools train the same 3 K methods with cooperative and compliant drills.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> There will be exceptions but regardless of style the overwhelming majority of karate schools train the same 3 K methods with cooperative and compliant drills.


No, they dont. If they did however why would you think you are right and they are wrong? We don't have many schools in the UK we tend to have clubs, non profession.

Just out of interest do you know of Iain Abernethy and how he trains?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> No, they dont. If they did however why would you think you are right and they are wrong? We don't have many schools in the UK we tend to have clubs, non profession.
> 
> Just out of interest do you know of Iain Abernethy and how he trains?


Bruh, we can go on YouTube and find countless instructors and schools all teaching the same basic thing. The katas may vary but generally yes they are.

I am very familiar with him. We’ve had a few discussions (not in person) on our more philosophical differences. Iain so fairly unique in his approaches.

You seem to very strongly disagree with my assertions, so do you believe the karate community as a whole is in a healthy thriving position and nothing needs to change, or do you agree that something needs to change but you just disagree with me on what it is?


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Bruh, we can go on YouTube and find countless instructors and schools all teaching the same basic thing. The katas may vary but generally yes they are.
> 
> I am very familiar with him. We’ve had a few discussions (not in person) on our more philosophical differences. Iain so fairly unique in his approaches.
> 
> You seem to very strongly disagree with my assertions, so do you believe the karate community as a whole is in a healthy thriving position and nothing needs to change, or do you agree that something needs to change but you just disagree with me on what it is?


I think we experience different things. In the US martial arts seems a very different animal.....schools, children's birthday parties, marketing, billing and lots of franchises. In the UK we teach out of village and Scout halls, school sports halls, local sports centres. There's as many adults as children, sparring for adults is hard, grading taken serious and lots of going (regardless of their style) to Iain's seminars, he's very popular as he is in Europe where martial arts is much the same as us. He's not as unique as you think, he has a huge following and many training his way. 
 I'm asking you questions which you aren't replying to in any detail. It seems basically you think karate should change because they don't grapple.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> (Bruh, we can go on YouTube and find countless instructors and schools all teaching the same basic thing.


Yes, I agree.  Most all those karate instructors are teaching..........wait for it..................KARATE.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I think we experience different things. In the US martial arts seems a very different animal.....schools, children's birthday parties, marketing, billing and lots of franchises. In the UK we teach out of village and Scout halls, school sports halls, local sports centres. There's as many adults as children, sparring for adults is hard, grading taken serious and lots of going (regardless of their style) to Iain's seminars, he's very popular as he is in Europe where martial arts is much the same as us. He's not as unique as you think, he has a huge following and many training his way.
> I'm asking you questions which you aren't replying to in any detail. It seems basically you think karate should change because they don't grapple.


I think kata are full of grappling and as a result karate should actively train grappling.

I also think that compliant training needs to be much less prevalent in favor of pressure testing.

I am disappointed that karate allowed KB to be removed from the karate umbrella for example.

I don’t necessarily think I have all the answers but I think it’s important we question what we’re doing, why we’re doing and what we can do better.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Yes, I agree.  Most all those karate instructors are teaching..........wait for it..................KARATE.


Clever one you are. 
But karate does not require a hyper focus on kata and compliant drills to the detriment of other facets of training. Especially for people who claim to be teaching self defense.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> 1. Batch testing everyone regardless of time training or in rank.- makes newer people particularly kids feel bad when they don’t pass because of lack of time training.
> 2. Inviting only those who are actually ready to test- if you’re giving them the opportunity to rest hopefully it’s because you believe they’re ready for the next level. In which case why not just promote them instead of making them jump through extra hoops?


The two main reasons people push to improve is competition and belt tests.  Some people aren't that into competition, or there aren't that many competitions in your area.  In those cases, belt tests are a good motivator.  

The testing invite is basically that you have passed the test.  The formal testing helps make it feel official or earned.  One of the problems in BJJ is the feeling of imposter syndrome when you get a new stripe or belt.  There are some BJJ schools that do formal testings, and I would imagine they are similar - you only test when you know you're ready.  The formal test also helps kids to feel confident in their ability to retain information under pressure, which can help when doing tests in other areas.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> The two main reasons people push to improve is competition and belt tests.  Some people aren't that into competition, or there aren't that many competitions in your area.  In those cases, belt tests are a good motivator.
> 
> The testing invite is basically that you have passed the test.  The formal testing helps make it feel official or earned.  One of the problems in BJJ is the feeling of imposter syndrome when you get a new stripe or belt.  There are some BJJ schools that do formal testings, and I would imagine they are similar - you only test when you know you're ready.  The formal test also helps kids to feel confident in their ability to retain information under pressure, which can help when doing tests in other areas.


I’ve never heard anyone talk about experiencing imposter syndrome in BJJ.
I don’t really know if it’s because of the way they do advancements, or more about the myth and hype surrounding the style.

I had some imposter syndrome when at the hombu dojo. Back as a sandan I didn’t feel like I belonged in the blackbelt line up with the people I spent years looking up to, and I went through formal testings for every single rank along the way, so I’m not sure the method of advancement is the cause.

Advancement is still on the table as a motivator it just isn’t restricted to a certain time frame.


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## wab25 (Oct 24, 2022)

In order to successfully change Karate (without destroying it) you would need to understand a few things first.

The first thing you need to understand, is what the movements really are. This is different than what a lot of people and schools think they are. As you said, there is a lot of grappling in the kata, that many people either ignore or don't know about.

The second thing you need to understand is Shu-Ha-Ri. Most people have no idea what Shu-Ha-Ri is... even though they practice kata or even teach kata. Learning and practicing Kata, is step one of Shu-Ha_ri. If you are not aware, that Kata is only step one and that there is a lot more that follows step one... its like learning to play an instrument and only ever practicing scales and assuming that that is all there is to learning music. Learning scales is step one in learning music theory, and learning how to actually play music.

Before you can change Karate, you have to first understand what it is. Once you find out what it actually is.... you may find out that Karate does not really need to change. But, maybe people's understanding of what they are doing should change... If that is too much work... just train MMA.... thats probably what you want anyway. There is no need to change Karate into MMA. If MMA is what you want, go train that.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I think kata are full of grappling and as a result karate should actively train grappling.
> 
> I also think that compliant training needs to be much less prevalent in favor of pressure testing.
> 
> ...


KB? 

It depends what the founder was thinking at the time. My karate style Wado Ryu is a case in point, Shotokan has similarities of course but doesn't have what Wado does.
How many karate classes in the world? How many styles, how many instructors yet you class them all together as being basically useless. This generalisation is poor you aren't basing it on any research just the limited experience you have of how many classes and instructors, not thousands that's for sure. I've been to many places training over many years and I really wouldn't generalise in this way.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> KB?
> 
> It depends what the founder was thinking at the time. My karate style Wado Ryu is a case in point, Shotokan has similarities of course but doesn't have what Wado does.
> How many karate classes in the world? How many styles, how many instructors yet you class them all together as being basically useless. This generalisation is poor you aren't basing it on any research just the limited experience you have of how many classes and instructors, not thousands that's for sure. I've been to many places training over many years and I really wouldn't generalise in this way.


KB=kickboxing.


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## Tez3 (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> KB=kickboxing.


Kickboxing wasn't in karate, it came from karate.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Kickboxing wasn't in karate, it came from karate.


Lol, yes it was once part of karate. But agree to disagree about that I guess


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’ve never heard anyone talk about experiencing imposter syndrome in BJJ.
> I don’t really know if it’s because of the way they do advancements, or more about the myth and hype surrounding the style.


Have you ever talked to someone who does BJJ?

This is such a common occurrence, I don't know how you couldn't have heard of it.  It would be like saying you've never heard of a boxer who's been hit in the head, or that you've never heard of a Karetaka who's learned a kata before.

People get a stripe and don't feel they've earned it yet.  People get promoted to blue belt and get the blue belt blues and quit.  They suddenly go from being treated like a white belt to being treated like a blue belt, which is hard when you're closer to some of the white belts than some of the more experienced blue belts.  



GojuTommy said:


> Advancement is still on the table as a motivator it just isn’t restricted to a certain time frame.


Advancement with no particular direction doesn't tell you what to work on.  If you have to memorize a form and learn it to a certain level of detail, then you know what to work on in order to advance.  

"Learn this form and these 10 other rote combinations" is much more specific direction than "Get gud."


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> Have you ever talked to someone who does BJJ?
> 
> This is such a common occurrence, I don't know how you couldn't have heard of it.  It would be like saying you've never heard of a boxer who's been hit in the head, or that you've never heard of a Karetaka who's learned a kata before.
> 
> ...


Several. One of which was a shipmate of mine.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> Have you ever talked to someone who does BJJ?
> 
> This is such a common occurrence, I don't know how you couldn't have heard of it.  It would be like saying you've never heard of a boxer who's been hit in the head, or that you've never heard of a Karetaka who's learned a kata before.
> 
> ...


Where did you get this idea of advancement with no particular direction?
I’m not doing away with kyu or Dan rank requirements.


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## skribs (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Where did you get this idea of advancement with no particular direction?
> I’m not doing away with kyu or Dan rank requirements.


That's how BJJ tends to work.  Most schools, you get your belt when your professor feels you deserve it.  But a lot of people aren't really sure what it takes for their professor to feel they deserve it.  This is a question I see answered by black belts on youtube and on forums all the time.  "I just took gold in a tournament, I'm constantly beating some of the blue belts and all of the other white belts at my dojo, how come I'm not a blue belt yet?"  

The problem is that they don't know what it is their professor wants from them.  Does he feel they need more work on a specific position?  Does he feel they're too focused on winning and not enough on improving?  Does he feel they need more work on specific techniques?  Do they maybe have a character problem?  Is it something else (like time-in-grade)?  Are they perhaps ready, but the professor has chosen not to promote them for some personal bias? It's very vague, and often not communicated well.

Compare that to my experience in Taekwondo, which I believe will line closer up with Karate.  If you don't have your form memorized, you're not ready, and it's not really a discussion.  If you're asked to do a tornado kick and half the time you can't figure out which way to go, and tornado kicks are part of your requirements for the next belt, then you're not ready.  You have a checklist of things you need to know, and if you don't check all the boxes, you know what to work on: the blanks.

Some BJJ schools have a more structured curriculum for white belts.  But many do not.  Most do not have a structure after white belt.  You learn the move of the day, and then you roll (spar).  That's it.  Some schools have a formalized belt test that puts you into different situations, and you have to accomplish a task.  For example, you would be put in side control and have to either sweep or get to guard.  You would be in side control and have to submit.  You would be put in guard and have to pass.  You would be put in a 90%-set submission and have to escape it.  But many schools don't do that.

For someone that wants to be more like BJJ, I recommend actually trying BJJ and seeing if that's what you want your art to actually be like.  It sounds more like what you're doing is listening to people in BJJ tell you why Karate is stupid and wanting Karate to be less stupid in their eyes.  But it doesn't sound like you have any experience in how it actually works, since you think imposter syndrome doesn't exist, and you think it's common to have a clear direction on how to advance rank.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 24, 2022)

So, I haven't trained in karate (unless you count kenpo or a little bit of tang soo do), but I'd like to.  It hasn't happened because I haven't found anyone who seemed interested in teaching karate as a _martial _art, that was also doing it at a time and in a place that I could attend.

This seems spot on to me:


Tez3 said:


> I think we experience different things. In the US martial arts seems a very different animal.....schools, children's birthday parties, marketing, billing and lots of franchises. In the UK we teach out of village and Scout halls, school sports halls, local sports centres.


Most of the commercial karate schools I've seen (and I've looked at a lot of karate schools) seem to be completely focused on selling kids classes and/or are watered down to appeal to the lowest common denominator, often tired parents who just want a fun workout that's at a convenient time and place that they're going to have to be anyway and has the added bonus that they can bond with their kids.  I think it's great for parents to do karate with their kids, but there are consequences for the quality of the art if that's the entirety of your adult student population.   

It often feels to me like the instructors have either given up on teaching anything that might cause discomfort, or never trained any other way themselves.  I don't just mean sparring either, workouts that make your legs wobbly and drench your gi in sweat, seem to be rare.  When I talk with the instructors that have been around since the '80's or longer I often get the sense that they've been beaten down by current sensibilities.  When I ask about kumite or conditioning, I often I get a sigh and then hear things like, "Oh, yeah, nobody wants to go to work with bruises anymore".  I'm not interested in losing teeth nor do I need to always train like a potential Olympian, but if I'm taking a martial art I'd usually like some emphasis on the martial part and I ought to really work up a sweat with some kind of frequency.

I have seen a few clubs and garage schools that seem to teach karate as a martial art, and I've seen a couple of commercial Kyokushin schools that did too, but it was obvious that they were almost clubs as well, not really for profit.

Unfortunately, I think the problem has become a self perpetuating matter of perception.  People think that MMA, BJJ, etc. are the arts to do if you want to know how to fight and that karate is for kids and adults who want maybe a workout with the trappings of a martial art. Because that's the cultural perception, the people who want to learn a martial art go to MMA, etc. schools and people who want a fun workout go to karate schools.  

If the karate school is a commercial venture, and the owner wants to keep the doors open, they have to cater to the workout folks.  Which means that when someone who really wants to do a martial art comes in to view a class and they compare it to the MMA or Muay Thai school down the street, they go to the other school.  Which then means the karate school has to cater even more to the workout folks and the kids.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't know that karate needs to evolve exactly, maybe it needs to devolve back to its origins, and if anything, take a page from MMA (when possible) and look for opportunities to spar with people from different arts.  Not to do things the way the other arts do but to understand how to apply karate when you face someone doing something very different.  Much like @JowGaWolf is doing with his kung fu.  I don't know how to break that cycle, or if it can be broken, until there's a karate movie craze or a new hard contact karate sport format that takes off on pay per view.  Either of those is going to be largely luck.  I'm just musing out loud here, I don't feel like I've got any real answers.

I'm not trying to bag on karate.  I think that every style of karate that I've watched has had something valuable to offer.  I'd enjoy training with a good instructor.  I just think that (in the US anyway) it's becoming, or has become, something less than it was and could be at many schools. 

And, since this is a karate thread, as a side note, if anyone _does_ know of a good karate school/club that actually has adult classes with adults in them, teaching quality, traditional karate, on the east side of Phoenix, AZ, please let me know!


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> So, I haven't trained in karate (unless you count kenpo or a little bit of tang soo do), but I'd like to.  It hasn't happened because I haven't found anyone who seemed interested in teaching karate as a _martial _art, that was also doing it at a time and in a place that I could attend.
> 
> This seems spot on to me:
> 
> ...


I might be in tuscon in the next 6-9 months if you don’t mind a bit of a drive.

But largely yes you hit it on the head. But it’s not just the US. You can go on YouTube and find videos of karate schools in middle/near East practicing some wholly ridiculous techniques that are their interpretation of a kata movement. Techniques that even 1 minute of attempting on non-compliant opponent would show are ridiculous. When I say non-compliant, I mean they’re just pulling away, tensing muscle resist, etc. not even trying to actually fight back. But they’re doing techniques that could be proven useless after just 1 minute if drilling the students with non-compliant partners.

Sounds like we’d get along.

I’m of the opinion that it shouldn’t be called a martial art if the end result of training doesn’t teach you how to fight, even if that’s not your reason to train.

Go to Thailand and train in a MT gym there for two months for exercise, not only will you probably come home in the best shape of your life, but you’ll have a much better idea of how to fight than in 2 years at most karate schools.

Also school/club/whatever I use the term school as a general term.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

skribs said:


> That's how BJJ tends to work.  Most schools, you get your belt when your professor feels you deserve it.  But a lot of people aren't really sure what it takes for their professor to feel they deserve it.  This is a question I see answered by black belts on youtube and on forums all the time.  "I just took gold in a tournament, I'm constantly beating some of the blue belts and all of the other white belts at my dojo, how come I'm not a blue belt yet?"
> 
> The problem is that they don't know what it is their professor wants from them.  Does he feel they need more work on a specific position?  Does he feel they're too focused on winning and not enough on improving?  Does he feel they need more work on specific techniques?  Do they maybe have a character problem?  Is it something else (like time-in-grade)?  Are they perhaps ready, but the professor has chosen not to promote them for some personal bias? It's very vague, and often not communicated well.
> 
> ...


I was just talking about for promotion.
Keep rank requirements, but instead of having testing every 3 months and inviting students I think are ready for the next rank to test, I will simply do the advancement at the end of the class.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

Here’s an example of what i think is wrong with modern karate.
1. This is an advertisement, meaning they think this is their best and most impressive stuff 
2. Compliant weapons self defense that would be disproven if even one of those guys grippe their weapons hard, or even slightly moved from their expected course of action.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

And to show this awful karate isn’t just in America.
Hands down, and one kid completely misses the slow swinging bag.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

If the attacker in this scenario even passively resisted the defender, they’d see how silly this little sequence is.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 24, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I think kata are full of grappling and as a result karate should actively train grappling.


Agree.  "Original" Okinawan karate contained a good amount of gabbing and take-downs but this was lost so as to not compete with Judo - a result of Japan's governing MA body's decision in the 1930's.  Some moves were also removed in Japan due to them being thought too dangerous for young school kids.  This art was retained however in many traditional Okinawan schools.  Such techniques are still ingrained in kata, although many instructors have not discovered them as the true application of some kata moves has been "lost" over the past 80 years.


GojuTommy said:


> But karate does not require a hyper focus on kata and compliant drills to the detriment of other facets of training


I agree again.  All facets of training should be employed.  The lack of this is not a problem of karate though, but rather a matter of individual schools and the way they teach.  So perhaps karate doesn't need to change, just the way some teach it.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 24, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> Agree.  "Original" Okinawan karate contained a good amount of gabbing and take-downs but this was lost so as to not compete with Judo - a result of Japan's governing MA body's decision in the 1930's.  Some moves were also removed in Japan due to them being thought too dangerous for young school kids.  This art was retained however in many traditional Okinawan schools.  Such techniques are still ingrained in kata, although many instructors have not discovered them as the true application of some kata moves has been "lost" over the past 80 years.
> 
> I agree again.  All facets of training should be employed.  The lack of this is not a problem of karate though, but rather a matter of individual schools and the way they teach.  So perhaps karate doesn't need to change, just the way some teach it.


I am speaking of the community when I say ‘karate’ not what actually makes up karate.

The methods used need to change and evolve.
Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”
And that mind set has been lost in karate.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I don't know how to break that cycle, or if it can be broken, until there's a karate movie craze or a new hard contact karate sport format that takes off on pay per view. Either of those is going to be largely luck. I'm just musing out loud here, I don't feel like I've got any real answers.


Not sure if this helps with your thoughts but the one common feedback that I get from a variety of people that I spar with is that I can actually use some of the techniques.  When I say some, I mean 2 or 3 three techniques that aren't found in basic kick boxing.  It doesn't take much to get someone hopeful. It just has to be  something out of the norm of what we normally see.  Things tend to change once they see that the techniques are doable and you don't have to be a master to do many of them.  It doesn't have to be flashy, it just has to be something that's out of the norm that is done during free sparring.   You don't even have to go full contact either.  Start with the basics and work from there.  Learn how to do that stuff during sparring and people will be amazed.  



GojuTommy said:


> Here’s an example of what i think is wrong with modern karate.
> 1. This is an advertisement, meaning they think this is their best and most impressive stuff
> 2. Compliant weapons self defense that would be disproven if even one of those guys grippe their weapons hard, or even slightly moved from their expected course of action.


When I used to teach, I made a promise to show my students actually using kung fu an not just drilling.  I think that's what most people want to know.  It means more if someone can see students use kung fu.  The message should always be "look what my students can do"  the student doesn't have to be the best, but it's gotta be more than just the common stuff they see.  A good example would be this video.  It's not the best display of kung fu skill, but if you watched this video and thought "I could do that" then it has served it's purpose.  If anyone has ever watched any of my videos and thought you couldn't do what I do, then I have failed in getting your interest to give it a try.





It Doesn't seem like a lot until you break it down.
1. The instructors train application
2. Sometimes the students can do a technique against an instructor (the guy who falls is an instructor.  I catch a nice backfist to my face).
3. No one is dying from the punches and kicks and it sounds like they are having fun.
4. There are different levels of students some are better than others
5. Nothing looks magical or super human

If I tell how the train works, it will make sense.  I have a saying.  If I can't stop the slow stuff then I probably wouldn't be able to stop it, if it comes in fast.  

I think this is the approach to gaining interest that similar to the original function of a Martial Arts fighting system.   I don't like videos that only show application drill or teachers performing.  For me personally, if I go to a Martial Arts school, then I want to know what's possible for me.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 25, 2022)

Karate _is_ evolving, but like human evolution, it happens almost imperceptibly. Compare grainy videos of Funakoshi with some current JKA instructor and the evolution is very obvious.


----------



## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lol, yes it was once part of karate. But agree to disagree about that I guess


Which karate style are you thinking about? It was never part of traditional karate, it was a spin off from karate full contact competitions with some boxing and MT thrown in.
I've been training karate for 52 years,  no kickboxing just plenty of hard sparring. Karate has changed over the years but when you say you want to change it I don't think you understand what it is for.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”


Karate Kid/Cobra Kai/Mr Miyagi aren’t real, GojuTommy 😉  (THIS IS A JOKE)


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## punisher73 (Oct 25, 2022)

Here is a quote from Chojun Miyagi, founder of Goju-Ryu back in 1936 talking about this exact same issue.  This is still what we are seeing today.  People join "karate" for different reasons.  Some want the socializing, some like the tradition, some like the physical aspect of it, some want it to learn how to fight.  If your goal is to only learn how to fight, that is a very small niche if you want to have a brick and mortar school and pay the bills.  In the US, most of those schools will have separate classes and market to the kids and other reasons to pay the bills.  Look at boxing gyms (at least in the US), how many are actual hardcore gyms still versus all of the "boxing fitness" gyms?  How many are starting to blend to keep the doors open for the guys who do want to learn to box?


> “As to karate clothes, we need to agree a standard karate uniform soon; as we often have problems. As for the terminology of karate, I think we will have to control it in the future.  I have been making new technical words and promoting them. *Regarding kata, I think traditional kata should be preserved. As for the nationwide promotion of karate, I think we had better create new Kata. *We will create both offensive and defensive kata *which are suitable for students of primary schools, high schools, universities and youth schools. *Mainly, we, the members of karate promotion association, will make new kata and promote them throughout Japan; now there is the Physical Education Association and the Okinawan branch of Butokukai. We also have senior students of karate and those who are interested in karate. We, therefore, cooperate with them to study and promote karate. If such organizations and experts study karate thoroughly, we can make a decision about the karate name issue and karate uniform relatively soon. *I think the old kata should be preserved without any modification while new kata should be invented, otherwise I am convinced that no one will be interested in karate in the future*.” – Chojun Miyagi, 25th of October 1936 (minutes from “The Meeting of the Masters”).


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I am speaking of the community when I say ‘karate’ not what actually makes up karate.
> 
> The methods used need to change and evolve.
> Miyagi said something along the lines of “we need to open our doors to the scrutiny of other styles, so that we may learn from them”
> And that mind set has been lost in karate.


What I'm finding hard to fathom is your interest and knowledge of karate, everything you post is against generic 'karate'. I want to know from what experience you criticise karate, I'm not saying there isn't room from improvement but some of the things you criticise aren't actually a thing.

Punisher's excellent post gives one founder's view on his art, I know Funikoshi had a great dislike of sparring and Wado Ryu's founder had a huge experience of Japanese Jujitsu which is reflected in the style. I don't know much about other styles founders so I don't comment on them.

The karate "community' is as varied as the United States or the UK, different styles mean different mindsets, different ways of training, different philosophies. Kata and kihons are a great example of this. Kihons are basic fundamentals, used to train techniques, breathing and position not to be mistaken for SD training, not all styles use them. Kata, again used for different reasons, training, meditation, fitness, competition etc. Many use Bunkai to unlock them others don't.

Not all karate does self defence training as in RBSD, some do though. Non resistant training in many styles of martial arts is a problem even in classes advertised as purely self defence. It's something we should all be shouting about.

Sparring, very few if any styles don't spar. For some it's points type sparring for others is semi or full contact. Here in the UK there is now a much bigger understanding of brain damage caused by even 'soft' blows to the head and how wearing head best doesn't mitigate it so full contact us now carefully managed, it's the same in boxing, kick boxing and MT.

Chojun Miyagi was talking specifically about looking at other karate styles, something a lot of us do especially if you enter open sparring and Kata competitions as well as go to seminars. ( it was at a seminar I saw a no touch KO, nice piece of theatre lol, did a Bangra warm up then learnt about Sikh weapons) at others I learnt from Aikido, TKD (that was one of our seminars, the TKD instructor was a Gurkha, all Gurkha recruits learn TKD here) Japanese Jujutso and even some  weapons. I could have learnt some Capoiera but that was beyond me lol. I also learnt about Judo kata, that was very interesting. I don't know how many practice it though.
You, I think, want us to look at other styles of martial arts which you seem to think will improve 'karate '. I'm not really sure how. Most groups from Judo through TKD to karate grade the same way, because it works. The system of course comes from Judo. The usual 'time' constraint is that one must have spent a certain amount of time in a rank before heading again not that you grade regardless.

Could you expand on what you train in and how it works? This might give us an idea of why you are so critical of karate. It would help me to understand where you get your information on karate from, I suspect as one poster has suggested it's because you've been told that karate is useless by others from an MMA/BJJ background.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Karate Kid/Cobra Kai/Mr Miyagi aren’t real, GojuTommy 😉  (THIS IS A JOKE)


Umm…chojun Miyagi is a real person but ok.


----------



## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Which karate style are you thinking about? It was never part of traditional karate, it was a spin off from karate full contact competitions with some boxing and MT thrown in.
> I've been training karate for 52 years,  no kickboxing just plenty of hard sparring. Karate has changed over the years but when you say you want to change it I don't think you understand what it is for.


Traditional karate is a made up thing.
All of our ‘traditions’ are primarily 60-70 years old…which guess what…is about the same timeframe that karateka began developing kickboxing in the US and Japan.


----------



## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> Karate _is_ evolving, but like human evolution, it happens almost imperceptibly. Compare grainy videos of Funakoshi with some current JKA instructor and the evolution is very obvious.


As I said in my original post karate was constantly evolving in the past and not ‘almost imperceptibly’ but quite noticeably. Te from 1890 was very different from Te of 1910 which was noticeably from the karate of the 30s, which was very different from karate of the 60s which was very different from the karate of the 80s…but the karate of 2022, seems to be largely the same as the karate of the 90s


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Traditional karate is a made up thing.
> All of our ‘traditions’ are primarily 60-70 years old…which guess what…is about the same timeframe that karateka began developing kickboxing in the US and Japan.


All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2022)

Uh, I'd argue some Okinawan te styles are way older than 70 years, and pretty evolved and progressive from a modern standpoint.  Motobu-Ryu stressed kumite over kata and included a lot of jujutsu throws, and is also the source of some of my favorite Shotokan jokes.

Nothing in martial arts is funnier and better IMHO, than two old masters who can't stand each other.  That's not just a movie thing, it really happen(s). 









						Motobu & Funakoshi – The Habu & The Mongoose
					

You know how the old masters of Karate would always write noble things like: “The ultimate goal of Karate is to seek perfection of character” and “Seek to improve yourself and your manners” and that kind of stuff? Well… Let’s just say that everyone didn’t really follow what they wrote...




					www.karatebyjesse.com


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Te from 1890 was very different from Te of 1910


How was_ toude_ different from 1890 to 1910?  Or even from 1880-1920?  I know of no event or particular change during this time.  What do you base your statement on?


GojuTommy said:


> karate of the 60s which was very different from the karate of the 80s


Having been in karate spanning this time I don't think it was "very" different, other than the belt inflation due to its increasing commercialization and expansion.  Kickboxing and professional contact karate (related, but two different things) branched out from traditional karate during this time, but IMO did not cause much change in traditional karate.


----------



## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
> Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
> You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?





Tez3 said:


> All martial arts are a made up thing. Traditional means it's been going on for a while. 60-70 years is long enough to be considered traditional. My karate style was recognised in Japan 87 years ago. Did you believe the stories that Karate was thousands of years old so that anything developed in the 19th and 20th century CE isn't real?
> Karateka developing kick boxing isn't the same thing as kick boxing being part of karate.
> You are going to avoid all hard questions aren't you?


Weird how karate is a ‘traditional’ martial art while Muay Thai isn’t despite being much older. BJJ also is just as old or even older than karate, yet not considered traditional.

This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.


----------



## Gyakuto (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.


It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old 😉 (THIS IS IRONY)


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Uh, I'd argue some Okinawan te styles are way older than 70 years, and pretty evolved and progressive from a modern standpoint.  Motobu-Ryu stressed kumite over kata and included a lot of jujutsu throws, and is also the source of some of my favorite Shotokan jokes.
> 
> Nothing in martial arts is funnier and better IMHO, than two old masters who can't stand each other.  That's not just a movie thing, it really happen(s).
> 
> ...


It can be argued, sure but then the question becomes when and where in history exactly the line is drawn.

Most of the major styles of karate formalized under their current names and founders in the 30s, some much later, so the only way to make it not make it a big subjective mess of an argument is to go by the founding date of each style of karate.

Personally I blame funakoshi for most of the short comings I find in modern karate since shotokan is the single largest style and there have been countless offshoots of shotokan. If only mutobu and others had been as good at marketing as funakoshi.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old 😉 (THIS IS IRONY)


Barney would like a word with you


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Weird how karate is a ‘traditional’ martial art while Muay Thai isn’t despite being much older. BJJ also is just as old or even older than karate, yet not considered traditional.
> 
> This obsession with ‘tradition’ is exactly part of what I see as a problem in karate. I’m not sure when that term started being used, but it’s just a weird title some people started using to imply their styles are better than others.


Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others. 
You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> It is well known that anything old, is better than anything not-so-old 😉 (THIS IS IRONY)


Dear me, I must be absolutely perfect then being so old. 😂😂😂😂


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## Gyakuto (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> YouTube Fu


Now, that _is_ thousands of years old.


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## Gyakuto (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Dear me, I must be absolutely perfect then being so old. 😂😂😂😂


A great sage, perhaps


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

Gyakuto said:


> A great sage, perhaps


More like sage and onion stuffing 😂😂


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
> Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others.
> You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.


Context clues aren’t your strong suit are they?

You never go any where new if you’re focusing on following where others have gone first…and that’s just another way of saying people are obsessed with tradition.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Must Thai is considered a traditional martial art, why wouldn't it be. It's described as Thailand's traditional martial art along with Muay Boran. BJJ isn't regarded as particularly new, sensible people understand that while it's newish to many of us it is a traditional style which derives from other traditional styles.
> Tradition is not an obsession with karateka, people just like to think they are following in the footsteps of others.
> You seem to have a lot of misconceptions about karate so please tell us what you train in, I've asked before. I shall think you just train in YouTube Fu soon.



The Tradition Fu.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Context clues aren’t your strong suit are they?
> 
> You never go any where new if you’re focusing on following where others have gone first…and that’s just another way of saying people are obsessed with tradition.


Well, I wondered when you'd start getting unpleasant. You won't answer my very reasonable questions, being intent instead on telling us why things should be as you decree. 
You decided people are obsessed with tradition, so it must be so. Yet karateka are exploring new ways to train, new ways to work out Bunkai, making new katas, isn't that strange for people hidebound in tradition? Karateka are pursuing knowledge all the time yet you say they are stuck in tradition, how odd because surely you, the arbiter of all things karate, (do you train karate?) say that Karate is moribund. Oh my.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?


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## skribs (Oct 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?


Sometimes.  Sometimes they use tractors.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 25, 2022)

punisher73 said:


> Here is a quote from Chojun Miyagi, founder of Goju-Ryu back in 1936


I'm familiar with the general content and some direct quotes of this and other summits around that time but have never seen a transcript as full as this.  It clearly shows the Okinawan thinking of the time and illustrates some important points (which you highlighted).

The main thing the excerpt details, IMO, is the discussion of 2 sets of kata:  The traditional ones and newly created ones.  This line of thought resulted in the schism of "two karates," The traditional ("real") kata/karate, and a version "suitable for students of primary, high schools..." the results of which are still felt today and have ultimately been responsible of much of the lively karate debate on this forum.

While a whole new set of kata did not come out of this meeting, perhaps due to the onset of WWII (although the earlier Pinan/Heian forms seem to fit this desire - I'm unsure why they were not addressed by Miyagi in this regard), the goal of providing a "simpler and gentler" version was accomplished by _modifying the existing kata_ (though this process began in the 1920's in Japan). This was the version largely exported to the West.  Many, even today, see this modified version as being "karate," being unaware that the less modified Okinawan style of karate still exists.

I don't think the Okinawans would have taken it upon themselves to change, if not for the pressure exerted by Japan.  In fact, they had resisted adopting the gi and ranking system, terminology (karate was still mostly referred to as "toude/toudi" in the Okinawan dialect) and changing the names of their kata.  Remember, most of those attending the 1936 meeting grew up while their homeland was still technically the independent Ryuuku Kingdom. Also, their training began while karate was still taught semi-secretly, so they were not keen to reveal everything to the Japanese or general public.  But the rising nationalism in Japan and the desire to maintain and spread their native art led Okinawan karate to play along with the Japanese way to some extent.

Must have been an exciting time.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> They still dig holes with shovels, don't they?


Not if it can be avoided, but even the shovels have changed and gotten better.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Well, I wondered when you'd start getting unpleasant. You won't answer my very reasonable questions, being intent instead on telling us why things should be as you decree.
> You decided people are obsessed with tradition, so it must be so. Yet karateka are exploring new ways to train, new ways to work out Bunkai, making new katas, isn't that strange for people hidebound in tradition? Karateka are pursuing knowledge all the time yet you say they are stuck in tradition, how odd because surely you, the arbiter of all things karate, (do you train karate?) say that Karate is moribund. Oh my.


I mean I don’t have time for stupid questions.
I always find people like you funny. I have stated my opinions, you then go ahead and start saying I made claims I did not.

God forbid someone question the status quo.

And as for not answering my training background, pretty sure I’ve already mentioned it in previous posts, but regardless of that, I could say anything you want, and your opinion of me based on our online interactions would determine if you believe me. You can’t disprove whatever I say, and I’m comfortable enough in my own knowledge and experience that I have absolutely no desire to prove my experience and training level to a stranger online hoping to get some validation.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 25, 2022)

I got a "LIKE" from GojuTommy............so immediately re-read my post.  

It still seems good.  I must bring out the best in him.

Welcome to the light, GT.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 25, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I got a "LIKE" from GojuTommy............so immediately re-read my post.
> 
> It still seems good.  I must bring out the best in him.
> 
> Welcome to the light, GT.


A broken clock is still right twice a day


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I mean I don’t have time for stupid questions.
> I always find people like you funny. I have stated my opinions, you then go ahead and start saying I made claims I did not.
> 
> God forbid someone question the status quo.
> ...



Ah so you are taking it personally that I'm questioning you about your opinion, I see.
Your fallback position is that I'm saying your're making claims, an odd phrase for me asking questions but there you go.

You aren't questioning the status quo though are you, what you are doing is voicing your opinion, fine but you will be challenged on that opinion especially when you decide that your opinion is the only correct fact. You decided that Muay Thai is not looked on as a traditional martial art when very clearly it is. That's just one thing out of quite a few. You decided that millions of karateka are so stuck in tradition the style is moribund. If you had risen to a high black belt grade in an established karate style over decades you would be entitled to voice your opinion and be listened to.
 As it is, we are quite entitled, especially on here, to question and if necessary debunk your ideas. Of course you find me funny, trying to belittle a critic is SOP, don't like it, don't post. Simples.


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2022)

One thing I think BJJ does better than most arts is the move away from top down innovation
 To a more collaborative method.

So instead of one black belt trying to pass on everything that is their style you kind of have everyone having an imput. And everyone doing the pressure testing. And this significantly raises the gene pool of talent. 

Which creates a lot more depth of knowledge. 

So if karate wanted to evolve that is the direction I would say to go.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

drop bear said:


> One thing I think BJJ does better than most arts is the move away from top down innovation
> To a more collaborative method.
> 
> So instead of one black belt trying to pass on everything that is their style you kind of have everyone having an imput. And everyone doing the pressure testing. And this significantly raises the gene pool of talent.
> ...


Many karate places do this already and have for a long time, few places have just one instructor taking the class. We've always had classes where brown belts also teach (it's a three stage belt in Wado) as well as purple belts. In sparring everyone gets to soar with everyone but as you know GoJuTommy doesn't approve of that. To only have like partnering like would cut down learning in any martial art. Partnering more experienced with beginners has always been a thing in karate, it's understood teaching is a very good way of cementing your own knowledge.
The media when talking about karate always show a class lined up facing one blackbelt shouting instructions when that is a very small part of karate, for us it's a quick warm up then on to individual or partner work. Line work is useful though for teaching a new kata just to get the basic moves learnt before finessing individually afterwards.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

You'd think a flashing lights warning would have been appropriate for those with light sensitive epilepsy. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Ah so you are taking it personally that I'm questioning you about your opinion, I see.
> Your fallback position is that I'm saying your're making claims, an odd phrase for me asking questions but there you go.
> 
> You aren't questioning the status quo though are you, what you are doing is voicing your opinion, fine but you will be challenged on that opinion especially when you decide that your opinion is the only correct fact. You decided that Muay Thai is not looked on as a traditional martial art when very clearly it is. That's just one thing out of quite a few. You decided that millions of karateka are so stuck in tradition the style is moribund. If you had risen to a high black belt grade in an established karate style over decades you would be entitled to voice your opinion and be listened to.
> As it is, we are quite entitled, especially on here, to question and if necessary debunk your ideas. Of course you find me funny, trying to belittle a critic is SOP, don't like it, don't post. Simples.


Not taking it personally. Literally 3rd grade reading comprehension could tell you what I’ve studied, and as I’ve said how long and to what rank, may or may not be believed, based on preconceived notions, and I simply don’t care what you believe either way.
If you want to think i only know ‘youtube fu’ that’s fine by me.


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## wab25 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Personally I blame funakoshi for most of the short comings I find in modern karate


Can you be specific here? Note that what Funakoshi taught and what you find taught these days in a Shotokan school can be very different.









						Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate
					

I've written plenty about   Lyoto   Machida  's karate over the past two years, but I thought we would try something different...




					bleacherreport.com
				




Also, what is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? In your changes to Karate, would you be removing Shu-Ha-Ri from Karate? If you remove Shu-Ha-Ri... you probably just have KB now. It would have been a lot easier to just train KB.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Can you be specific here? Note that what Funakoshi taught and what you find taught these days in a Shotokan school can be very different.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sure.
The mainlandification of karate I don’t like. Even Japanese goju I have a problem with. The pointless lowering of stances, the addition of high kicks, the lack of pressure training, the removal of karate’s grappling, etc.

It just seems funakoshi was more concerned about getting rich and/or famous and was a much better marketer than karateka.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Not taking it personally. Literally 3rd grade reading comprehension could tell you what I’ve studied, and as I’ve said how long and to what rank, may or may not be believed, based on preconceived notions, and I simply don’t care what you believe either way.
> If you want to think i only know ‘youtube fu’ that’s fine by me.


You may well have written previous posts which if you check I haven't been here to read. I'm not going to spend time going through your posts. Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.

For someone not it taking it personally you are getting quite emotional about it.😏


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> You may well have written previous posts which if you check I haven't been here to read. I'm not going to spend time going through your posts. Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.
> 
> For someone not it taking it personally you are getting quite emotional about it.😏


I don’t think you know what it means to get emotional about something but have fun trolling


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## wab25 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Sure.
> The mainlandification of karate I don’t like. Even Japanese goju I have a problem with. The pointless lowering of stances, the addition of high kicks, the lack of pressure training, the removal of karate’s grappling, etc.
> 
> It just seems funakoshi was more concerned about getting rich and/or famous and was a much better marketer than karateka.


And yet, if you read the books that Funakoshi wrote, you will find him explaining the grappling and throwing, and stating how they should be kept. Not to mention, his students taught the grappling and throwing aspects of the kata.

What is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? (it is quit fundamental to the study of Karate)


----------



## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

wab25 said:


> And yet, if you read the books that Funakoshi wrote, you will find him explaining the grappling and throwing, and stating how they should be kept. Not to mention, his students taught the grappling and throwing aspects of the kata.
> 
> What is your understanding of Shu-Ha-Ri? (it is quit fundamental to the study of Karate)


He can explain it in books all he wants, he removed it from his curriculum to please the Japanese who for whatever reason and likely multiple reasons didn’t want it.

Had to look up that term since I don’t speak Japanese fluently. It seems the term originates in aikido so I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate. But honestly it seems like a bunch of crap to me. Either you understand techniques or you don’t. Weird how people who come from styles that regularly pressure test don’t seem to have a concept like this…because they understand their techniques from the beginning as a result of pressure testing.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Had to look up that term since I don’t speak Japanese fluently. It seems the term originates in aikido so I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate. But honestly it seems like a bunch of crap to me. Either you understand techniques or you don’t. Weird how people who come from styles that regularly pressure test don’t seem to have a concept like this…because they understand their techniques from the beginning as a result of pressure testing.


Noh.

And pressure testing arts definitely contain the same concept as shuhari.  Especially so.

I know practically zero Japanese too.  But the I Ching, definitely.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I don’t think you know what it means to get emotional about something but have fun trolling


I can assure you I'm not trolling at all but your comments are interesting. People always accuse others of trolling when they have nothing. 
 You seem resistant to the idea that you perhaps don't know as much as you think you do. Most of us in martial arts know we don't know everything, that's why we are eternal beginners. You propose changing karate to something you think it should be, forgetting there's a lot of karateka on here, who don't see the problems you do. There's no doubt changes could/should be made but are they ones you think they are?
I did some checking, in the UK boxing is the most popular with 775,000 registered, Judo has 47,000, Karate 65,000, MMA 5,000, TAGB TKD 26,000. You'll think all the numbers small but we are a small country. Those are good numbers. Karate isn't losing students, in fact it's the fastest growing sport for females here. 
We must be doing something right. 

However all sports and leisure activities face a difficult future here and there's nothing we, as clubs and instructors can do. Finances here are so stretched and look to become more so, the cost of food has rocketed, gas and electricity have tripled in price and still rising, people are using food banks. Sports, hobbies, leisure activities are being dumped as no one will be able to afford them, we can't afford to rent buildings or if owned can't afford utilities. Mortgages went up by £500 a month. That's the problem, not whether people are stuck in tradition. 
The problem is we can't even afford to live let alone train martial arts. 🙄


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I can assure you I'm not trolling at all but your comments are interesting. People always accuse others of trolling when they have nothing.
> You seem resistant to the idea that you perhaps don't know as much as you think you do. Most of us in martial arts know we don't know everything, that's why we are eternal beginners. You propose changing karate to something you think it should be, forgetting there's a lot of karateka on here, who don't see the problems you do. There's no doubt changes could/should be made but are they ones you think they are?
> I did some checking, in the UK boxing is the most popular with 775,000 registered, Judo has 47,000, Karate 65,000, MMA 5,000, TAGB TKD 26,000. You'll think all the numbers small but we are a small country. Those are good numbers. Karate isn't losing students, in fact it's the fastest growing sport for females here.
> We must be doing something right.
> ...


I mean your misinterpretations of what I’ve said mean you’re either trolling or getting butthurt i suggest change.

Who are those new people? If you’re content teaching children and senior citizens sure then I guess no reason for things to change for you.

Also 65k is a tiny number. It’s roughly 2/3 of my local college football stadium…


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## wab25 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> He can explain it in books all he wants, he removed it from his curriculum to please the Japanese who for whatever reason and likely multiple reasons didn’t want it.


Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training. 

He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well. 



GojuTommy said:


> I’m not sure how it’s fundamental to karate


Shu-Ha-Ri is a traditional way to transmit information and was used for lots of things, most recently Aikido. Its hallmark, it to teach the student Kata as step one. This is where Karate gets its notions of Kata. Karate uses the Shu-Ha-Ri method to transmit the knowledge and skill. Too many people, do not understand this, and think that Kata, by itself, is the method of transmission.... and that by doing Kata alone, someday the light will flash on. This leads to people memorizing a set of moves, and thinking that they have "mastered" a Kata. Nothing could be further from the truth. 

Step one is the memorization and practice of the Kata, as an exact copy. This is to teach new skills, but more importantly, to teach the core ideas, and  principles. Simply memorizing is not enough... you need to gain a deep understanding of what you are doing, why you are doing it and what effect it has.

Step two is to deviate from the Kata. This needs the involvement of the teacher. The idea here is that if the student truly understands the principles in the Kata that he learned, his deviations will express the same principles, through a different technique. Each student develops his own deviations. Further, what is a good deviation for one student, is not necessarily a good deviation for another. The idea is that first you learn the principles, and then you learn how to apply those principles in different ways.

Step three is to discard or abandon the Kata. You are free to express the principles in anyway that you wish. Further, the principles have become so ingrained in you, that you don't have to sit down and think about the moves and the principles... you can just respond, with the principles and the moves / techniques will be there.

The thing that makes Karate special is that it is not a set of x number of moves, the mastery of which will allow you to kick butt. Karate has x number of principles, the mastery of these principles will allow the Karateka to have an infinite number of moves and techniques to employ while kicking butt. These principles include all the techniques that the human body is capable of doing, and contains a framework, where these moves can be made effective quite quickly.

If your understanding of Karate is to memorize and copy these kata exactly, and then spar in some certain way... then yes, your Karate needs to change. 

Memorizing a dictionary is not a great way to learn a language. When learning a language, you do memorize some words. But, then you learn to use those words in ways that teach you the principles and core fundamentals of the language. They idea is to provide a framework for you to be able to learn and use new words effectively, without much effort, because you understand how the language works. In fact, if done right, the focus is on communicating effectively, not on expansion of vocabulary. You are then free to use any words at all, in order to communicate. (your vocabulary will grow as a side effect)

Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training.
> 
> He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well.
> 
> ...


Which students taught grappling? Those from before he moved to Japan or those after?


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I mean your misinterpretations of what I’ve said mean you’re either trolling or getting butthurt i suggest change.
> 
> Who are those new people? If you’re content teaching children and senior citizens sure then I guess no reason for things to change for you.


So, You disparage my posts because you don't understand your experience is in the US not in Europe or the UK. You assume problem is with karate not karate in your country. I've given you my perspective because it's outside the US but you don't get it. I've said before you generalise far too much, karate is a generic term, not all karate is the same. This is an international site you will get posts from people outside the US.
Your last comment is ridiculous you actually don't seem to realise that martial arts for children is not the thing here it is in the US. We don't have the numbers of children you do in martial arts, we have healthy numbers but it's also not marketed the same we, we don't have the family training together thing either. Martial arts ranks 6th here for children participating. Football and swimming are by far the most popular sports, athletics, running, cycling and netball come before martial arts, we also have rugby and cricket. Football is enormous here, most children will play at schools and clubs. The big professional clubs sent scouts to kid's games and sign them up as young as 7 For their academies.  For oldies martial arts other than Tai Chi rank very low, bowls both lawn and carpet rank highest, darts, horseshoe, and out her pub games rank higher.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Taking Shu-Ha-Ri out of Karate, whether you understand Shu-Ha-Ri or not, would reduce Karate into line dancing + sparring... its not Karate anymore.


Line dancing is a great counterexample.  Everyone always doing the same thing...no ri(li).

Swing dancing, on the other hand is a great example of the shuhari process.  You learn the moves, then you learn with a partner, and eventually you're all over the place dancing randomly.  I personally hate it but you know, everyone has their own style of dancing.  I'm more of a twerker, I like getting low.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 26, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Your current posts I've been involved with indicate a lack of understanding of karate.


GojuTommy gives me the same impression.  Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...

It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him.  But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> GojuTommy gives me the same impression.  Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...
> 
> It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him.  But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.


I agree. I'm off to see if we've changed Prime Ministers again, the last one lasted less time than a lettuce. I have to laugh, I'll cry if I don't.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> GojuTommy gives me the same impression.  Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...


You left out the droolingly aggressive posting style.

I mean, everyone gets a little angry and frustrated with other people online.  The best medicine for that is to just be honest.  It's OK to talk about how you feel!

But some people online, man.  You can tell they have rough days in surplus.  Come home (or worse, still at work) and pick fights on the web.  I feel bad for these people, so I try to be nice no matter what.

Doesn't always work but it's a much better strat than tit for tat.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> GojuTommy gives me the same impression.  Cherry-picking facts while missing the context, over-generalized answers, limited grasp of the big picture, not giving value to those here with FAR more experience in time and knowledge in the art...
> 
> It's been fun as addressing his comments gave rise to the posting some good information by others, which seems to be lost on him.  But it's getting tiresome and time, for me at least, to let him go back to his sandbox so I can play with the big kids.


Lol thanks for making my point for me.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 26, 2022)

wab25 said:


> Except that his students were taught the grappling and throwing portions.... You can say he removed it all you want, but his students clearly were taught it and in his writings, he clearly intended everyone to understand that part of the training.
> 
> He did remove parts when he was developing a physical education system for elementary schools... but then that was intended as exercise for elementary school kids... not as a martial art. When teaching Karate, the Martial Art, he clearly kept the grappling and throwing aspects. It was other folks, later on that removed and "lost" different parts of the art. However, there are still many who kept those parts as well.
> 
> ...


Very well said!


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## Hyoho (Oct 26, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 26, 2022)

So many posts on something so simple.
If you don't like karate, then don't do it. If you think there something better out there, go do that. If YOU want to change your karate, then go for it. Do what ever makes you happy.  However if you want to change others because they don't agree with you,, well that's being a narcissistic a hole.  People can train however they want. There is nothing stopping you and if it's good and others like it, what you do will spread and grow. 
I like what I do. Everyone here likes what they do.  Trying to convince people otherwise is a foolish undertaking.  We're not ignorant and stupid. We know what other people do, its just not what we choose to do.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?


When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 26, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> So many posts on something so simple.
> If you don't like karate, then don't do it. If you think there something better out there, go do that. If YOU want to change your karate, then go for it. Do what ever makes you happy.  However if you want to change others because they don't agree with you,, well that's being a narcissistic a hole.  People can train however they want. There is nothing stopping you and if it's good and others like it, what you do will spread and grow.
> I like what I do. Everyone here likes what they do.  Trying to convince people otherwise is a foolish undertaking.  We're not ignorant and stupid. We know what other people do, its just not what we choose to do.


The founders by and large would have a hard time recognizing modern karate as what they were training. Especially that Olympic embarrassment.


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> I guess that depends on your reasons for practicing. The Japanese way is to try and preserve a tradition. This applies to most arts as it's based on an educational/cultural pursuit. Why is it there is always somebody that wants to "change things"?



Functionality.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Functionality.


If it's not broke don't fix it. If you're the only one who doesn't like it, then change styles, why be so bothered about what other people do?


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## drop bear (Oct 27, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> If it's not broke don't fix it. If you're the only one who doesn't like it, then change styles, why be so bothered about what other people do?



How do you think you got karate in the first place?


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## _Simon_ (Oct 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.


I think there's a (big) difference between "preserving" tradition, and learning from what the tradition has to offer.


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## skribs (Oct 27, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> I think there's a (big) difference between "preserving" tradition, and learning from *what the tradition has to offer.*


This is the big thing for me.  A lot of people assume that if it won't help you in an MMA fight, it's completely 100% worthless.  I don't think that's the case.

It's also taken in the other direction.  When I claim that there is no *direct practical application* of the Taekwondo forms, people think I'm calling the forms useless and get really defensive.

Often, that thing that is supposedly 100% worthless takes a different perspective that at the very least could give you a new insight.


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## Tez3 (Oct 27, 2022)

skribs said:


> This is the big thing for me.  A lot of people assume that if it won't help you in an MMA fight, it's completely 100% worthless.  I don't think that's the case.
> 
> It's also taken in the other direction.  When I claim that there is no *direct practical application* of the Taekwondo forms, people think I'm calling the forms useless and get really defensive.
> 
> Often, that thing that is supposedly 100% worthless takes a different perspective that at the very least could give you a new insight.


I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all. We've seen it often enough, there's been enough arguments over this, I'm not going to repeat them, I've done karate and MMA so know both sides.
I've also seen the kick boxing v karate and the Kung Fu v karate arguments as kick boxing and King Fu became the new shiny styles that caught the public's attention. It's like teenagers rolling their eyes at their parents 😂 The new shiny things always attract attention, people think they are 'new and improved ' but they are usually just the old stuff recycled and in a new package. Even MMA is old, very old in fact.


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## Hyoho (Oct 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> When did it become the Japanese way to preserve tradition? Things were changing all the time in Japan with regard to karate, until very recently.


My connections are with members of Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Like all arts there is grey area that leads to interpretation. Then there are the characteristic differences that have one head differing to another. But we should all strive for no adaptation if we practice for cultural reasons. God knows we have enough ryuha as it is without starting yet another one. We do our best to hand down what we learn 'as is' from our Sensei/Soke/Shihan

So how long have you lived in Japan? What gave you the idea that japanese dont try to preserve tradition? There is an old Japanese quotation of, "If it works don't change it".


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## Hyoho (Oct 27, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all.


What I do really like about it is many ways of adaptation from all the arts. And to see all these variation pitted against each other. But in no way is it superior.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 27, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> My connections are with members of Nihon Kobudo Kyokai. Like all arts there is grey area that leads to interpretation. Then there are the characteristic differences that have one head differing to another. But we should all strive for no adaptation if we practice for cultural reasons. God knows we have enough ryuha as it is without starting yet another one. We do our best to hand down what we learn 'as is' from our Sensei/Soke/Shihan
> 
> So how long have you lived in Japan? What gave you the idea that japanese dont try to preserve tradition? There is an old Japanese quotation of, "If it works don't change it".


I never said the Japanese don’t try to preserve traditions, I ask when that started, since karate was clearly changing, advancing and evolving, at least into the 60s, but best I can tell into the 80s. So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.

Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 27, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I think this is where the OP is coming from, his perceived idea the MMA is superior to all. We've seen it often enough, there's been enough arguments over this, I'm not going to repeat them, I've done karate and MMA so know both sides.
> I've also seen the kick boxing v karate and the Kung Fu v karate arguments as kick boxing and King Fu became the new shiny styles that caught the public's attention. It's like teenagers rolling their eyes at their parents 😂 The new shiny things always attract attention, people think they are 'new and improved ' but they are usually just the old stuff recycled and in a new package. Even MMA is old, very old in fact.


That’s a weird interpretation of what I have said, considering I have literally never said that.
That being said, mma isn’t a style that can be superior to any style.
That also being said, karate is a form of mma, since it’s creation up to the modern era is a result of multiple styles being mixed.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I never said the Japanese don’t try to preserve traditions, I ask when that started, since karate was clearly changing, advancing and evolving, at least into the 60s, but best I can tell into the 80s. So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.
> 
> Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.


Do you feel that preservation and adaption are opposites? Just trying to understand the framework through which you're viewing the issue..

I sort of see them as working together. You can preserve principles of an art whilst adapting and evolving how they're expressed in specifics. Karate from my view has done this continually throughout the years, even if you can't see it.

"Is karate working?" What do you actually mean by that general question?


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 27, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> So when did advancement end and preservation die? About the time the founders of the major styles and/or their direct students died? Kinda seems like that.
> 
> Is karate working? It’s a martial art with most of its practitioners seriously lacking in martial skill.


This is such a complex topic, dude.

First of all, you should consider the general presence of an Imperial military on your home turf and how they might change things.

Second, whenever you say "most of", ask yourself why you think it's most.  If it's personal experience, that's not it for anyone but yourself.  Or if you read some article somewhere....probably not it either. 

Here's what I think: most people who practice martial arts have little skill.  It's not a karate thing, it's a human thing.  Most people don't spend enough time at anything to get good at it, that's why kung fu is so special, and karate too.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s a weird interpretation of what I have said, considering I have literally never said that.
> That being said, mma isn’t a style that can be superior to any style.
> That also being said, karate is a form of mma, since it’s creation up to the modern era is a result of multiple styles being mixed.


Karate a form of MMA, I think you'd better explain your thinking on that.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Do you feel that preservation and adaption are opposites? Just trying to understand the framework through which you're viewing the issue..
> 
> I sort of see them as working together. You can preserve principles of an art whilst adapting and evolving how they're expressed in specifics. Karate from my view has done this continually throughout the years, even if you can't see it.
> 
> "Is karate working?" What do you actually mean by that general question?


I believe you can preserve tradition while adapting and evolving.

As a USN veteran the USN I think is a good example. 
Boot camp blasts us with classes of history of our navy. We still use bosun pipes, and maintain many traditions from the age of sail, while being one of the navies that’s on the cutting edge of new relevant technologies.

I’m not trying to take anything away from anyones’ training. I am simply suggesting we add to the training.

The original purpose of kata is obsolete but there are many other reasons to train kata and I’m a huge proponent of kata training. After all on a cramped ship with no other martial artists let alone karateka present it was the only way I had available to practice and train aside from shadow boxing.

The only real change I am suggesting is including more pressure testing. 
Tbh the biggest thing holding karate back imho is the ego of blackbelts.  I suggest making changes and people immediately got defensive and attacked the idea change or evolution. Why because to their ego it sounds like I am saying they were taught wrong and they’re doing things wrong. I’m not saying that, but I am saying there are ways that can attract a wider variety of students and that over the last half century we’ve seen advancements in sports science, and specifically the fight sciences. There’s no reason to ignore advances and let go certain myths.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Karate a form of MMA, I think you'd better explain your thinking on that.


I literally explained my way of thinking in the post are you familiar with the the history and origins of karate and martial arts on Okinawa?
Earliest forms of Te were a mixture of tegumi, and various forms of Kung fu. That alone is a mixing of martial arts. 
In the early days of Te and even karate there were no high kicks, it is widely believed those were introduced by exposure to Savate, another mixing of martial arts. Some believe there was an early exposure of muay boran mixed into Te as well.

Modern karate is definitionally a mixture of martial arts.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is such a complex topic, dude.
> 
> First of all, you should consider the general presence of an Imperial military on your home turf and how they might change things.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a cop out.

But there’s also a big difference in what can be considered ‘being good’ at karate vs being good at boxing or Muay Thai. 

A karateka that has a dozen region kata trophies and a national kata trophy, would be considered by most to be good at karate. Granted most won’t have a national level trophy. But that’s aside from the actual point I’m making, karate is a martial art.
The intent of the individual for training is largely irrelevant if they’re training in a martial art there should be one common outcome. Becoming a better fighter than when you started. Even if you only wanted a fun hobby to help you lose weight.

Join a Muay Thai gym to lose weight, after a year you will walk out better at fighting than when you walked in. 
The same isn’t necessarily true for karate. I’d say it is for kyokushin, but most other styles no.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That sounds like a cop out.
> 
> But there’s also a big difference in what can be considered ‘being good’ at karate vs being good at boxing or Muay Thai.
> 
> ...


I totally get your "good karate" vs. "bad karate!" vibe.

Kyokushin is not the only one though.  It's easy to respect it, but don't limit yourself to that.  Do you know how many karate schools there are out there for any particular lineage?   Like a million million.  So drawing general conclusions about karate is about as helpful as with kung fu. 

But I guarantee you, somewhere even in those Goju ryu schools, there's at least one heart on fire for the art.  I'm sorry you haven't met enough of these types of people in your personal karate journey.  Truly.


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## wab25 (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The original purpose of kata is obsolete


No it is not. The original purpose of kata, was to be step 1 of the Shu-Ha-Ri process. That purpose is to teach and study the core principles. Memorization of a kata does not equal mastery of a kata. Once you have memorized a kata to the point where you can do it without thinking... you are now ready to *begin *studying that kata. You cannot study the kata, if you are busy trying to remember what comes next.



GojuTommy said:


> A karateka that has a dozen region kata trophies and a national kata trophy, would be considered by most to be good at karate.


There are many people with all kinds of trophies for kata contests.... who think the kata is all there is. They can perform the moves beautifully... but have no idea what the core principles are that they should be studying. Karate does not have wrist locks, because I cannot find them in the kata. Karate does not have take down defense because I cannot find them in the kata.... You hear these statements from people, who are very good a performing kata, but who do not understand what Karate is or what the kata is. Its not a catalog of techniques defining the techniques of a system. Its not a combination list, defining the combinations included in a system. Kata is the physical expression of the core principles and fundamentals of a system. If you understand them, then you can use any move or technique or combination... and as long as you are adhering to the core fundamentals... you will be doing Karate.

When you learn a language, you use a grammar book. You do learn and memorize words.... but the most important thing is that you learn how the grammar works. No one expects that you will be speaking English if and only if you use only the words found in the grammar book. The expectation is that you will be able to use all the words, both currently existing and any new words that come along. You will be able to use these new words and still be speaking English, so long as you are following the rules of grammar... (or at least close enough.... ) There is also no expectation that there is only one grammar book that can teach you the English language. People who use these grammar books go on to write and speak at various different levels.... in various different styles... in various different formats.... all speaking English.

Kata is like the grammar rules. The Style of Karate is like your grammar book. The real problem with Karate, is too many Karateka confining themselves to the vocabulary found in the grammar book and mistaking the grammar book for a Karate dictionary. The bigger problem is that these people, who do not really understand what kata is and how Karate was setup, go out wanting to change Karate into something better. They want to change Karate so that it will include new techniques.... Karate already does include new techniques, it includes all techniques. They want to get rid of kata.... but then they have to find a new way to teach those core principles and fundamentals.... but since they never found those principles and fundamentals.... I am not sure their replacement would include them all. They want to pressure test Karate more.... thats a school issue.... get out more.... there are plenty of Karate schools out there that pressure test the heck out of their stuff. In short, all the things people want to add to Karate, are already there.


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## Tez3 (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I literally explained my way of thinking in the post are you familiar with the the history and origins of karate and martial arts on Okinawa?
> Earliest forms of Te were a mixture of tegumi, and various forms of Kung fu. That alone is a mixing of martial arts.
> In the early days of Te and even karate there were no high kicks, it is widely believed those were introduced by exposure to Savate, another mixing of martial arts. Some believe there was an early exposure of muay boran mixed into Te as well.
> 
> Modern karate is definitionally a mixture of martial arts.


The thing is you are obtuse with your posts and I do know the history of karate. 
You know very well when you posted you meant MMA, the modern version as we were talking about it before. That's a different thing from karate being a mixture of martial arts. 

As you were talking about naval history, you might note that the traditions you mention are taken by the USN from the Royal Navy which dates back to 1500 CE, though the English navy dates back to 897 CE.


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## drop bear (Oct 28, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I totally get your "good karate" vs. "bad karate!" vibe.
> 
> Kyokushin is not the only one though.  It's easy to respect it, but don't limit yourself to that.  Do you know how many karate schools there are out there for any particular lineage?   Like a million million.  So drawing general conclusions about karate is about as helpful as with kung fu.
> 
> But I guarantee you, somewhere even in those Goju ryu schools, there's at least one heart on fire for the art.  I'm sorry you haven't met enough of these types of people in your personal karate journey.  Truly.



But the process is the same. People who train by fighting generally fight better. 

So yes I know a shotokan club (I think) that produces killers. But they also jump in the ring a lot. They also cross train a lot. And they have good fighters training their guys.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> The thing is you are obtuse with your posts and I do know the history of karate.
> You know very well when you posted you meant MMA, the modern version as we were talking about it before. That's a different thing from karate being a mixture of martial arts.
> 
> As you were talking about naval history, you might note that the traditions you mention are taken by the USN from the Royal Navy which dates back to 1500 CE, though the English navy dates back to 897 CE.


No MMA is not different from a mixture of martial arts. MMA is not itself a style or art. It’s a ruleset for competition that allows people to use both striking and grappling.

Karate is an art created by mixing striking and grappling techniques from multiple styles. Making it a mixed martial art.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

wab25 said:


> No it is not. The original purpose of kata, was to be step 1 of the Shu-Ha-Ri process. That purpose is to teach and study the core principles. Memorization of a kata does not equal mastery of a kata. Once you have memorized a kata to the point where you can do it without thinking... you are now ready to *begin *studying that kata. You cannot study the kata, if you are busy trying to remember what comes next.
> 
> 
> There are many people with all kinds of trophies for kata contests.... who think the kata is all there is. They can perform the moves beautifully... but have no idea what the core principles are that they should be studying. Karate does not have wrist locks, because I cannot find them in the kata. Karate does not have take down defense because I cannot find them in the kata.... You hear these statements from people, who are very good a performing kata, but who do not understand what Karate is or what the kata is. Its not a catalog of techniques defining the techniques of a system. Its not a combination list, defining the combinations included in a system. Kata is the physical expression of the core principles and fundamentals of a system. If you understand them, then you can use any move or technique or combination... and as long as you are adhering to the core fundamentals... you will be doing Karate.
> ...


The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But the process is the same. People who train by fighting generally fight better.
> 
> So yes I know a shotokan club (I think) that produces killers. But they also jump in the ring a lot. They also cross train a lot. And they have good fighters training their guys.


Yes pressure testing is the key.
That’s the point I’ve been trying to make, and your example is the exception, not the rule.


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## wab25 (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.


No, kata is not now and never was, a dictionary of all the techniques that define an art. An art is not defined by the techniques that are practiced. 

Kata is a part of the Shu-Ha-Ri method of transmission.
(Teaching and Shu Ha Ri — Kimusubi Aikido Orlando)


> "Shu-ha-ri" literally means embracing the kata, diverging from the kata and discarding the kata. The pursuit of training in a classical Japanese endeavor almost always follows this educational process. This unique approach to learning has existed for centuries in Japan and has been instrumental in the survival of many older Japanese knowledge traditions. These include such diverse pursuits as martial arts, flower arranging, puppetry, theater, poetry, painting, sculpture and weaving.


This method is way older than Karate. When Karate was being developed, they used this well known method to transmit what they had learned. What they had learned, and wanted to transmit, was not merely a list of techniques. (why would their list contain the same technique over and over and over again? Did they think that they would forget the technique was on the list if they didn't repeat it enough times?)

(Teaching and Shu Ha Ri — Kimusubi Aikido Orlando)


> Some practitioners of modern martial traditions dismiss kata and Shu-ha-ri as being too confining or old fashioned. In truth, this position is flawed because the purpose of kata is misinterpreted by them. Like so many arm chair experts, they have not been properly trained beyond the shoden level in kata and are commenting on a subject they simply are unqualified and therefore unable to comprehend. Like most observers outside the experience of deep study they see the kata as the art itself instead of a sophisticated teaching tool that is only a surface reflection of an arts core concepts. The kata, in their flawed interpretation "is" the art.


The kata was meant to be a tool to use to explore the art... which is much deeper and includes much more than what is actually in the kata itself. The kata was never meant to confine the art to only these techniques. When people see kata, as confining Karate to that set of techniques... it means they do not comprehend what Karate is, nor how it was meant to be transmitted.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Ah yes your aikido concept that’s so super duper important to karate.

There’s no evolving understanding. Either you understand something or you don’t.

When you say there’s evolving understanding it just tells me you weren’t taught well and had to come to understand things on your own.

Your link says that this is a Japanese way of doing things. Karate via Te and katas predate japan’s interaction with either, so this whole thought process and claim is flawed from the very premise. Karate has only been Japanese for 89 years.

On top of all of that, most if not all of the older kata have origins in Chinese Kung  fu forms, so trying to claim they’re designed to be used based on a Japanese point of view is even more ridiculous.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

I find it interesting I see no mention of shu ha ri in either Toguchi’s books, but he does explain what kata is and how to interpret kata in those books…interesting how an Okinawan student of the founder of one of the biggest modern styles doesn’t seem to follow your aikido principle.


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## Nobody Important (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


I personally don't think that the overarching culture of Karate has become stagnant, to the contrary, I think many aspects of the culture have slowly evolved over the last 100 years. Many new traditions, concepts, philosophies and styles have been created that are for better or worse, drastically different from the arts practiced and promoted by the pioneers of 100+ years ago.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Nobody Important said:


> I personally don't think that the overarching culture of Karate has become stagnant, to the contrary, I think many aspects of the culture have slowly evolved over the last 100 years. Many new traditions, concepts, philosophies and styles have been created that are for better or worse, drastically different from the arts practiced and promoted by the pioneers of 100+ years ago.


Over the last 100 years for sure.
What about the last 40 years of that century though is the question here.

As I said it seems to me karate has fluid and evolving but it seems like around the 80s-90s karate stagnated, and I find it interesting that timing also coincided with the time frame a lot of the original students of people like Miyagi and funakoshi died.

My theory is that while those people were alive people were comfortable trying new things with their blessings as they knew the founders. Now people have a veneration for the founders and their instructors that in some cases borders on religious (this might be a cultural thing that didn’t translate well outside of Japan.)

That’s just my thoughts on that.


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## Nobody Important (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Over the last 100 years for sure.
> What about the last 40 years of that century though is the question here.
> 
> As I said it seems to me karate has fluid and evolving but it seems like around the 80s-90s karate stagnated, and I find it interesting that timing also coincided with the time frame a lot of the original students of people like Miyagi and funakoshi died.
> ...


Meh, MMA definitely influenced a lot of arts in early 2000s, Karate being no exception.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The original purpose of kata is to record and pass down fighting techniques. That purpose was made 100% obsolete by the photograph and the printing press, let alone the smart phone the internet and social media.


Not exactly wrong but not 100% correct either. Your perception on kata is one dimensional and rudimentary. The truth is much more complicated. Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge.  Embodied knowledge repeated overtime moves from the cognitive parts of the brain to the deeper more automated structures. It can actually change the way the mind works.
Here is something to blow people's minds..  MMA has kata so does firearm practice and a million other things that people want to get good at. It's called repetition. The only reason naysayers don't see that and think it's different is because they are too busy looking at the wrong things.  Koryu kata for many styles is short one technique actions. What many people see as kata, are the long forms of Chinese styles, which by strict definition wouldn't be called kata now would it. So if I practice a katana draw and cut, it is kata. If I practice my Glock 9mm draw and fire, that is kata too. If I practice a double leg take down into an arm bar,..guess what it's kata.  In fact judo used to have a structured practice of throws called (drum roll please) KATA. 
Now going back to the Chinese forms, there are reasons for the long sequences of strung together techniques.  On a techical level, It has to do with how individual moves link together. Like how a good BJJ practioner sets up moves and is "playing chess". One move is sequenced after another until the final move is achived. The Chinese arts in many cases were able to formalize not just the individual technique but also the transitions and available options. But that's just the technical reasoning. There is a lot more to it. Chinese forms were ment to be exploratory. It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.
In my view it's not that karate hasn't evolved and needs to change to be better. I just think on the whole the practitioners just suck and are superficial. Much like how the bulk of kids now leave high school and can't read and write. ( speaking only for the USA, I have no knowledge of other countries)
As MMA and armed self defense evoles and changes the more I look at those changes and say to myself, yeah that's not really anything new, it's been around a long time. There is nothing new under the sun.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> Not exactly wrong but not 100% correct either. Your perception on kata is one dimensional and rudimentary. The truth is much more complicated. Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge.  Embodied knowledge repeated overtime moves from the cognitive parts of the brain to the deeper more automated structures. It can actually change the way the mind works.
> Here is something to blow people's minds..  MMA has kata so does firearm practice and a million other things that people want to get good at. It's called repetition. The only reason naysayers don't see that and think it's different is because they are too busy looking at the wrong things.  Koryu kata for many styles is short one technique actions. What many people see as kata, are the long forms of Chinese styles, which by strict definition wouldn't be called kata now would it. So if I practice a katana draw and cut, it is kata. If I practice my Glock 9mm draw and fire, that is kata too. If I practice a double leg take down into an arm bar,..guess what it's kata.  In fact judo used to have a structured practice of throws called (drum roll please) KATA.
> Now going back to the Chinese forms, there are reasons for the long sequences of strung together techniques.  On a techical level, It has to do with how individual moves link together. Like how a good BJJ practioner sets up moves and is "playing chess". One move is sequenced after another until the final move is achived. The Chinese arts in many cases were able to formalize not just the individual technique but also the transitions and available options. But that's just the technical reasoning. There is a lot more to it. Chinese forms were ment to be exploratory. It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.
> In my view it's not that karate hasn't evolved and needs to change to be better. I just think on the whole the practitioners just suck and are superficial. Much like how the bulk of kids now leave high school and can't read and write. ( speaking only for the USA, I have no knowledge of other countries)
> As MMA and armed self defense evoles and changes the more I look at those changes and say to myself, yeah that's not really anything new, it's been around a long time. There is nothing new under the sun.


It’s primary purpose is that no questions about it.
Muscle memory and everything else has other ways of being achieved that are not kata. Transmission of techniques has few other realistic options before the printing press and photography.

MMA isn’t a style or art, but the main styles within MMA do not have kata. 
Shadow boxing is not kata. Kihon isn’t kata.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 28, 2022)

Nobody Important said:


> Meh, MMA definitely influenced a lot of arts in early 2000s, Karate being no exception.


Influenced sure, but as a whole mma hasn’t made much of an impact other than drawing potential students away.

And there’s a handful of dojo all over the world (in the grand scheme of things) that have adapted to newer more modern ways of doing things without abandoning the old completely, but they’re rare exceptions rather than the rule


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2022)

drop bear said:


> But the process is the same. People who train by fighting generally fight better.
> 
> So yes I know a shotokan club (I think) that produces killers. But they also jump in the ring a lot. They also cross train a lot. And they have good fighters training their guys.


Yeah that was kind of where I was going.

People who train to fight...often also pick up old arts.  Or, they train old arts and bring them into a realistic training environment.

It does suck that there are so many dead schools out there, but I've seen enough that train alive (or at least with some resistance and contact) to not write anything off.  

But if someone today told me they "do karate/Kung Fu", a fun game of 20 questions starts...can't tell you how many times somebody says they spar and I'm like "what do you wear to protect your hands" and hoo boy does the BS often fly.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2022)

Nobody Important said:


> I personally don't think that the overarching culture of Karate has become stagnant, to the contrary, I think many aspects of the culture have slowly evolved over the last 100 years. Many new traditions, concepts, philosophies and styles have been created that are for better or worse, drastically different from the arts practiced and promoted by the pioneers of 100+ years ago.


Not to mention, all it took to make (Shotokan) karate "ok for MMA"was a couple key MMA fighters bringing their game.

Lyoto Machida doesn't just consider himself an MMA fighter.  He proudly considers himself a karateka also.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 28, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> It’s primary purpose is that no questions about it.
> Muscle memory and everything else has other ways of being achieved that are not kata. Transmission of techniques has few other realistic options before the printing press and photography.
> 
> MMA isn’t a style or art, but the main styles within MMA do not have kata.
> Shadow boxing is not kata. Kihon isn’t kata.


Most of the styles in MMA have some form of sequence training.  BJJ has them, boxing has them, even wrestling has them.  They don't have to be long or static either.  Remember what Kata actually means ..it's not from Karate at all.

Muay Thai in particular comes from this stuff.  Now you could argue "Oily why train this, it's really old and useless" but...it's really not.  In fact if you've ever met anyone who Thai boxes AND knows the forms of Boran and others ...these people are the real deal dude.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 29, 2022)

Anybody here engage in shadow wrestling?  Very similar to kata and the exercise science here is on point.









						Shadow Wrestling: How, What, & Why Of Solo Wrestling Drills - Sweet Science of Fighting
					

Shadow wrestling is more than a way to drill technique. It is also a wrestling conditioning modality and a highly effective one at that. If you want to level




					sweetscienceoffighting.com
				




Man not only do I do this all the time, but it's fun as hell.

That's kind of my take on kata.  It's fun, it's part of the art, and it's the part you can practice on your own in a functional conditioning way (or in some cases a partner, CMA has a lot of 2-man fist sets that are very cool to learn as a segue to San da).

Are there 2 man karate kata?  Wouldn't know, only did a few years of it, didn't get that far.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Most of the styles in MMA have some form of sequence training.  BJJ has them, boxing has them, even wrestling has them.  They don't have to be long or static either.  Remember what Kata actually means ..it's not from Karate at all.
> 
> Muay Thai in particular comes from this stuff.  Now you could argue "Oily why train this, it's really old and useless" but...it's really not.  In fact if you've ever met anyone who Thai boxes AND knows the forms of Boran and others ...these people are the real deal dude.


Weird you can find all sorts of MT classes to watch in Thailand and don’t see anyone doing any of these in any of those classes.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Anybody here engage in shadow wrestling?  Very similar to kata and the exercise science here is on point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shadow boxing/wrestling is not the same as kata, but ok.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Weird you can find all sorts of MT classes to watch in Thailand and don’t see anyone doing any of these in any of those classes.


Ram Muay differs depending on the lineage.  Lots of Thai schools have no clue about their history.  Quite a few use traditional Muay Boran fight dances, others make up new ones.  

Muay Thai is basically a mixed art going back to the Siamese empire, heavily influenced by Chinese martial arts (since Thailand is basically the end location of southern Chinese emigrants).


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Shadow boxing/wrestling is not the same as kata, but ok.


That's an odd thing to claim.  What's your wrestling/boxing experiences?

Both are basically freestyle kata.  It's just a sequence of events dude, using certain forms.  That's how you recognize an art...its form and dynamics.

Like an etude, musicians use the same method to get really good at specific things that need to be played fast and repetitive, like arpeggios.

This is a kata developed by Chopin for strengthening the right hand.






This is


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2022)

Traditional Japanese dancing also used kata to learn and practice.

Kata is not confined to martial arts.









						What is Kata? Toyota’s Karate Concept for Lean Continuous Improvement and Coaching Success | Process Street | Checklist, Workflow and SOP Software
					

Kata methodology can improve business performance by up to 75%. Learn how to employ Kata for your business today.




					www.process.st


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## Darksoul (Oct 29, 2022)

Killing time at work, just read through this entire thread. Interesting topic, some really great posts, some just really obtuse and evasive. I'm thinking about getting back into martial arts training, and I'm leaning towards karate. Time will tell.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> It’s primary purpose is that no questions about it.


That's not it's primary purpose. That's just what you believe and it's a shallow misrepresentation.  
The primary purpose is to transfer and embody the style. But to understand that, one would first have to understand what a style is.  Not many people do. Most people think a style is a collection of techniques as if one could go around finding new shiny things and put them in their bag. Most experienced MA know that method doesn't work well because those parts are disjointed in a way and don't make a cohesive unit. Can you do it sure but that's the big difference between asian and western thinking. An Asian "style" is a subset of the  Asian concept of the family unit. It's a very abstract concept. but you could think about like this,  when you are accepted as a full student you become a part of the teachers family. It's the students role to learn and pass on the family style. It's not a collection of techniques, it's the essence of the father.  As example I walk, talk and have many characteristics that my dad has. That is his essence. It's a feeling. Likewise in MA circles everyone that knows me and my old instructor comments on how much i move and look just like him.  The primary purpose of kata is to impart and pass on that feeling. There is no equivalent in western society.  With out that feeling or essence you are not doing the style. You are doing a collection of moves and just about every school of fighting throws a punch. Everyone punches, its the essence that defines the style and makes those punches different. If you don't understand forms and don't train them you do not learn the essence of the style and its why many people complain about everyone looking the same when they do sparring when the rest of the style curriculum looks so different. This is where the Asian concept of Shu- Ha- Ri comes in. It's an implicit concept that's embedded in Asian culture. It's not an Aikido thing. Other arts could  just have different words to express it. But the concept is that once you learn the essence, you can transcend the physical techniques because everything you do will exude that same essence. Even when your not trying to.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 29, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.


Your post had a lot of good stuff in it, especially about kata being more complicated than some may think, but I'd like to make a few points.

The Japanese standardized kata into a curriculum, true, but I think this began a little before their militarization, done in the interests of teaching effectively in a public-school environment starting during the mid 1920's to early 1930's.

It's important to understand that the original purpose of kata was for the transmission of combat techniques.  It was really a_ synthesis_ of a master's concepts.  It has been said that each of the old kata formed the basis of a complete fighting style, in and of itself.  I believe this is true, but probably not complete, rather a compilation of representative techniques of a particular master's personal fighting style.  



hoshin1600 said:


> Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge.


Kata certainly helps with this, however, repetition to perfect karate technique execution is not the purpose of kata. That's what drilling is for.  What is not often done, however, is taking the technique/series _out_ of the kata and drilling them individually, solo and with a resisting partner.  After all, these individual techniques or short combos are really what kata is composed of.  This kind of drilling puts some of the purpose back into kata.  

Kata can show how these techniques are used in dynamic combinations, but its main purpose is conceptual.  In other words, a framework of ideas to work off of.  This infers that kata can not only (and should) be done as taught but can also be utilized as platform for further non-standard exploration.


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## Tez3 (Oct 29, 2022)

Hironori Otsuka founder of Wado Ryu wrote
 " It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practiced sufficiently but one must not be 'stuck' in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the forms of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training.
Essentially it is a habit, - created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to live with no hesitation - by the subconscious mind"

There's a lot of thought on kata, lots of different ideas on how it should be used, we have different ideas on here.  This indicates to me that karateka *are *thinking, pushing and exploring ideas about both karate and kata. 
I don't know where the OP gets his opinion on karate from and why he is so aggressively against it. Perhaps just to argue.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> A broken clock is still right twice a day


ha ha ha.. only if it's analog


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Hironori Otsuka founder of Wado Ryu wrote
> " It is obvious that these kata must be trained and practiced sufficiently but one must not be 'stuck' in them. One must withdraw from the kata to produce forms with no limits or else it becomes useless. It is important to alter the forms of the trained kata without hesitation to produce countless other forms of training.
> Essentially it is a habit, - created over long periods of training. Because it is a habit, it comes to live with no hesitation - by the subconscious mind"
> 
> ...


I don’t know where you get the idea I’m against karate let alone ‘aggressively’ against it. Suggesting something needs to make changes doesn’t mean you’re against that thing. It means you think that thing could be and should be better, which to me is the most supportive thing someone can do for a person or activity.

You can look at the videos of pretty much any school that puts videos of their training online and see that most are doing things the same way, and if you look back it’s the same way things have been done for the last 30-40 years.

People talking about the different ideas behind kata, and whether or not the lost meaning theory doesn’t mean karate is changing. Wouldn’t be surprised if people weren’t having these same discussion 30 years ago when the internet was first born, and here we are still with no general consensus, stagnately speculating.

This speculation however isn’t really relevant to the discussion however.


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## Hyoho (Oct 29, 2022)

wab25 said:


> No it is not. The original purpose of kata, was to be step 1 of the Shu-Ha-Ri process. That purpose is to teach and study the core principles. Memorization of a kata does not equal mastery of a kata. Once you have memorized a kata to the point where you can do it without thinking... you are now ready to *begin *studying that kata. You cannot study the kata, if you are busy trying to remember what comes next.


Shu ha ri (Shi gyo to) reads as protect, break, seperation. 

Shodan to Godan-Shu
Rukudan to nandan-Ha
Hachidan-ri

This really should not be case as most certainly is not the theory professed by our most respected sensei.

It's Shu Ren Ko. To study, practice, figure/work out.

After Ko we then go back to Shu in a never ending process.

It's a never ending process we follow with our teacher and still continue when we are on our own. How many times do we hear and see this with a sensei on a seminar who has you doing the first fundamental you ever did? Its back to basics. We can do some fancy stuff or add our own character. But all in all it's the same old stuff with or without our sensei if we want to try reach for that perfection that will alway elude us.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Oct 29, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Not if it can be avoided, but even the shovels have changed and gotten better.


Mine hasn't.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 29, 2022)

skribs said:


> Sometimes.  Sometimes they use tractors.


Or guns. I dig small holes. Shovel works fine. Karate does not need to evolve. Students need to be better students.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Mine hasn't.


Congratulations?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 29, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Or guns. I dig small holes. Shovel works fine. Karate does not need to evolve. Students need to be better students.


Lmao, great teacher you must be. Telling students to be better students. Great mindset.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 30, 2022)

I'm gonna do a proper translation of this tomorrow, across the Sinosphere.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I don’t know where you get the idea I’m against karate let alone ‘aggressively’ against it. Suggesting something needs to make changes doesn’t mean you’re against that thing. It means you think that thing could be and should be better, which to me is the most supportive thing someone can do for a person or activity.
> 
> You can look at the videos of pretty much any school that puts videos of their training online and see that most are doing things the same way, and if you look back it’s the same way things have been done for the last 30-40 years.
> 
> ...


You see, there you are judging karate by what's on video, not by visiting, not by personal experience but but snippets of video by non professional video makers who are unlikely to show their best. 
If I look back 30-40 years that the time I've been training karate, I don't have to watch videos. Most definitely things aren't done the same way. People weren't discussing kata then much, people like Iain Abernathy, Geoff Thompson, Ticky Donovan, Tatsuo Suzuki, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many more have had huge influence on karate here. You speculate all you want but I know, because I was there.

You are aggressively pursuing this, I don't know why but you are barging through people's posts like a  preacher trying to force his views on a crowd.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Lmao, great teacher you must be. Telling students to be better students. Great mindset.


If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?

Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?
> 
> Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.


If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.

Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> You see, there you are judging karate by what's on video, not by visiting, not by personal experience but but snippets of video by non professional video makers who are unlikely to show their best.
> If I look back 30-40 years that the time I've been training karate, I don't have to watch videos. Most definitely things aren't done the same way. People weren't discussing kata then much, people like Iain Abernathy, Geoff Thompson, Ticky Donovan, Tatsuo Suzuki, Steve Arneil, Dave Hazard and many more have had huge influence on karate here. You speculate all you want but I know, because I was there.
> 
> You are aggressively pursuing this, I don't know why but you are barging through people's posts like a  preacher trying to force his views on a crowd.


I have visited several schools, but I’m not Jeff bezos so I cannot travel to visit 500 dojos on every continent.

I’d bet I can get a wider view of the over arching trends of karate via video, than you have from in person visits of dojos. Why? because in the time it takes you to drive to another dojo I can find and watch examples of karate from at least five different dojos.

Your argument criticizing my reference of videos does not hold water, because those videos are karate schools.
If your school is different great!  No reason to be butt hurt and take what I’ve said personally.

You seem to be taking this as a personal attack on you and your dojo.
Take a step back, and breath.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.
> 
> Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?


I haven't claimed you said anything.  Have a nice day.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If a student is poor at any given subject that others have mastered, is it the fault of the subject?
> 
> Perhaps before declaring that a new karate must be invented because they cannot learn the original, they should try harder to learn what they're missing.


Did you already forget about the second part of this post?
That didn’t take long at all.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> People talking about the different ideas behind kata, and whether or not the lost meaning theory doesn’t mean karate is changing. Wouldn’t be surprised if people weren’t having these same discussion 30 years ago when the internet was first born, and here we are still with no general consensus, stagnately speculating.


I was there, as were a few others here. The first online form I knew of was Uechi-Ryu. Com in 1993.  It's still there but the forms died over time.  I miss those days. We debated all kinds of things but mostly ironically the dichotomy between self defense realities VS traditions within karate. I can also tell you the concepts of MMA ( mixed MA) were well established  in the 1980's  we called it cross training.  The UFC was just the ideal proving ground for a wellspring of a bottom up movement of ideas and training. Sure we were not doing BJJ yet but judo was there.  I was the young buck doing Muay thai shin kicks on the bag thinking I was doing something special only to find out later they already existed in Okinawa.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I was there, as were a few others here. The first online form I knew of was Uechi-Ryu. Com in 1993.  It's still there but the forms died over time.  I miss those days. We debated all kinds of things but mostly ironically the dichotomy between self defense realities VS traditions within karate. I can also tell you the concepts of MMA ( mixed MA) were well established  in the 1980's  we called it cross training.  The UFC was just the ideal proving ground for a wellspring of a bottom up movement of ideas and training. Sure we were not doing BJJ yet but judo was there.  I was the young buck doing Muay thai shin kicks on the bag thinking I was doing something special only to find out later they already existed in Okinawa.


And the mixed nature of karate and the way the ‘old masters’ trained all over the island with each other, went to China to train, and eventually continued on to train Japanese martial arts shows that within the karate community cross training has always been a thing.

For me the whole crux of the evolution I think we need to see is moving away from complex combinations on stationary partners, and once someone has the basic movements understood moving away from sooo many compliant partner drills, and increasing the regularity of pressure training.
It doesn’t even have to be full contact full time, but light contact continuous sparring gives much the same feedback without the CTE. hard/heavy spars I think should happen occasionally, but I’m not advocating a full time head hunting course.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> If a student is failing it’s the teacher’s fault 100% bad teachers blame students. Some students may struggle more to learn something but that’s likely not because they’re a bad student because some people are left brained and some are right brained meaning that some people will struggle with karate no matter what.
> 
> Where are you people coming up with this stuff? What’s with the fascination with y’all claiming I’ve said things I didn’t even remotely say?


There are students who fail however good their teacher/instructor is, these are the students who simply don't want to be in the class, who have no intention of learning and are only there because of the insistence of a parent (usually, though in schools certain subjects are often compulsory)


GojuTommy said:


> I have visited several schools, but I’m not Jeff bezos so I cannot travel to visit 500 dojos on every continent.
> 
> I’d bet I can get a wider view of the over arching trends of karate via video, than you have from in person visits of dojos. Why? because in the time it takes you to drive to another dojo I can find and watch examples of karate from at least five different dojos.
> 
> ...



Why do you assume I'm upset? How odd, this is a discussion site, I'm discussing, it seems you are  not, you are attempting to belittle me by saying I'm thinking emotionally not logically. A tactic often used by men against women. Shame it doesn't work, but never mind, it amuses me. You are way off if you think I'm taking this personally or as an attack on my martial arts club that trains MMA. 😄 
So, because random karate schools are posting random videos and you're watching them this gives you the wisdom of Solomon where karate is concerned, ok then. On social media at any time you can see the confusion watching videos causes, the sheer amount of misinformation or misunderstood  information. 

The recent death of Queen Elizabeth ll is a case in point, so much misunderstood information gained from watching videos, it's staggering. Not to mention a fictional television series people think is real. A video was posted up of a Household Cavalry soldier shouting at a spectator to move brought the most imbecilic comments from people who had absolutely no idea what they were watching but assumed they knew everything from watching a couple of minutes of film. The assumptions were staggering. But there you go, watching a few minutes of a video tells _you _everything. 😂

Please do continue to lecture us on why your view of karate is superior. It's as good as watching politics here in the UK at the moment.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> There are students who fail however good their teacher/instructor is, these are the students who simply don't want to be in the class, who have no intention of learning and are only there because of the insistence of a parent (usually, though in schools certain subjects are often compulsory)
> 
> 
> Why do you assume I'm upset? How odd, this is a discussion site, I'm discussing, it seems you are  not, you are attempting to belittle me by saying I'm thinking emotionally not logically. A tactic often used by men against women. Shame it doesn't work, but never mind, it amuses me. You are way off if you think I'm taking this personally or as an attack on my martial arts club that trains MMA. 😄
> ...


The first point a good teacher will be able to reach them, and make a very strong effort to do so. The students who are actively resisting are the ones who need the most attention, and it’s up to the adult aka the teacher to figure out how they can break through to those students.

Sure it’s much easier and more immediately rewarding to focus your attention in the students who want to be there and are therefore easy to teach, but anyone can teach those students. Teaching those students doesn’t need mean someone is a good teacher.

Next you have been very defensive, so that makes it seem you’re very upset about the way you do things being questioned. Your last little bit is a perfect example.
People who put words in other peoples’ mouths are indeed defensive and being emotional (your words I’ll remind you)


----------



## hoshin1600 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> For me the whole crux of the evolution I think we need to see is moving away from complex combinations on stationary partners,


I dont know your background, but in my experience the only style I have seen this with is Kenpo/kempo which by strict definition is a Western/American construct. Not okinawan or japanese karate. The karate I know has short block strike drills but that's it.  I have lots of criticisms on karate but generally complex combinations is not one of them.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I dont know your background, but in my experience the only style I have seen this with is Kenpo/kempo which by strict definition is a Western/American construct. Not okinawan or japanese karate. The karate I know has short block strike drills but that's it.  I have lots of criticisms on karate but generally complex combinations is not one of them.


Might be a uniquely western thing, but ‘western’ even if that only means america is still a very large portion of the global karate community, which makes it an issue for the karate community as a whole.

What are some of your complaints?

Edit
This is a great example with my issues with the modern karate community and i don’t think this is Islamabad Pennsylvania USA


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The first point a good teacher will be able to reach them, and make a very strong effort to do so. The students who are actively resisting are the ones who need the most attention, and it’s up to the adult aka the teacher to figure out how they can break through to those students.
> 
> Sure it’s much easier and more immediately rewarding to focus your attention in the students who want to be there and are therefore easy to teach, but anyone can teach those students. Teaching those students doesn’t need mean someone is a good teacher.
> 
> ...


Oh dear, now you've decided I'm defensive merely because I've answered you. You really are working the belittling bit aren't you. 😂 

I suppose you didn't notice I said we train MMA? No, because you didn't read what I said. 😂 for my personal karate training I go to various clubs and seminars depending on where I am, so no you aren't criticising 'my dojo' at all. 

Several times now you've accused people with putting words in your mouth, it's becoming boring.

The thing is you aren't criticising the way we train because you don't know how we train, you watch a few videos and decide karate everywhere needs changing 😂
I know nothing about how CMA is taught, I would not have the audacity to watch a few videos and start a thread telling practitioners they need to change but hey you do you.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear, now you've decided I'm defensive merely because I've answered you. You really are working the belittling bit aren't you. 😂
> 
> I suppose you didn't notice I said we train MMA? No, because you didn't read what I said. 😂 for my personal karate training I go to various clubs and seminars depending on where I am, so no you aren't criticising 'my dojo' at all.
> 
> ...


Either you’re trolling or you you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies. 
Have a good day.


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## Tez3 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Either you’re trolling or you you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies.
> Have a good day.


And there we have the next expected attempted put down meaning 'I have no answer so I'm going to say your are Fleming's
My dear man, why would I need to make an assessment of my replies,  I wrote them 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 30, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Might be a uniquely western thing, but ‘western’ even if that only means america is still a very large portion of the global karate community, which makes it an issue for the karate community as a whole.
> 
> What are some of your complaints?
> 
> ...


I do not speak any Arabic languages so I don't know what the vid is about, but the title says Bando, which is not karate. Bando is a martial art from Myanmar. The title does also say karate, so I would assume it's a mix of multiple arts. Which BTW undermines your argument because that vid is a good example of what happens when you try to mix and match and evolve a traditional art. You get bottle kicking, flaming brick breaking, bow & arrow shooting nunchuck swinging nonsense.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 30, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I do not speak any Arabic languages so I don't know what the vid is about, but the title says Bando, which is not karate. Bando is a martial art from Myanmar. The title does also say karate, so I would assume it's a mix of multiple arts. Which BTW undermines your argument because that vid is a good example of what happens when you try to mix and match and evolve a traditional art. You get bottle kicking, flaming brick breaking, bow & arrow shooting nunchuck swinging nonsense.


You get that same thing in karate schools that don’t try to mix things. You get that with schools that are afraid to actually make contact with each other.

The tonfa/knife thing was my point thought about long complicated combos on static opponents


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## wab25 (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> you can’t make an honest assessment of your replies.


I would suggest making an honest assessment of your position....

You have two things that Karate needs to change. You are challenging everyone here to open our minds to see these new points, and to accept them. Hopefully, the entire Karate community will accept these new changes.

Your first change is that Karate needs to be open to new techniques. You are right. You are 100% right. Karate does need to bring in new and evolving techniques. This idea is so right and so correct.... that the founders of the different styles of Karate, made this same point. In fact, they built there styles of Karate as a framework, to be able to use those new and evolving techniques. So, this change you are asking for, is not in fact a change... it was there from the beginning. Have there been schools and teachers and students that missed this point? Absolutely. A good way to tell if someone is missing this piece in their understanding is if they view kata as a dictionary of techniques, and restrict an art to only the techniques found in the kata.

Your second change is to add more pressure testing and resistance to the training. Again, you are correct. Again, you are so right, that the founders already did this. Many, many schools have pressure testing, resistance testing in all kinds of different ways. Again, some schools, teachers or students missed or strayed from this.... The way to tell if a person has missed this part of the training, is that they think Karate does not have this type of training.

In short, you are asking us to open our minds to accept these new changes you propose. The reality is that these are not new changes at all, but core to the art of Karate already. But if it helps... you are correct, Karate should make these changes.... so much so that the founders made karate that way.


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## Barry Drennan (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


Do sharks need to evolve?  Hammerheads were the last of the modern shark families to evolve, and did so in the Cenozoic. Their evolution date is estimated at between 50 and 35 million years ago. Why? Because they are perfect for there purpose.

Karate (like every other method/system) evolved its approach to addressing humans (which themselves haven't evolved in over 35000+ years). It is quite feasible that for its approach it (Like the shark) has reached it's apex. 

Often our desire for change in a system is actual a desire to reintroduce parts of other branches (e.g. joint-locks) back into e.g Karate. 

Remember all fighting was at one time one method which over time hyper-sub-diversified into a "zillion (lol)" methods which now through the lens of MMA have started to remix again.

When querying change, one must ask themselves if it is evolution they want or some degree of reunification.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Barry Drennan said:


> Do sharks need to evolve?  Hammerheads were the last of the modern shark families to evolve, and did so in the Cenozoic. Their evolution date is estimated at between 50 and 35 million years ago. Why? Because they are perfect for there purpose.
> 
> Karate (like every other method/system) evolved its approach to addressing humans (which themselves haven't evolved in over 35000+ years). It is quite feasible that for its approach it (Like the shark) has reached it's apex.
> 
> ...


If you think modern karate as a whole is ‘perfect’ or at its apex then you’re delusional everything can improve.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I would suggest making an honest assessment of your position....
> 
> You have two things that Karate needs to change. You are challenging everyone here to open our minds to see these new points, and to accept them. Hopefully, the entire Karate community will accept these new changes.
> 
> ...


Yes the founders of various styles agreed with me 100yrs ago, and now karate has grown stagnant and sad.


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## Barry Drennan (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> If you think modern karate as a whole is ‘perfect’ or at its apex then you’re delusional everything can improve.


Thanks for the insult and attitude. Perhaps you could identify where you see further evolution is required?


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## wab25 (Oct 31, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Yes the founders of various styles agreed with me 100yrs ago, *and now karate has grown stagnant and sad.*


That is quite the blanket statement you made right there. Given the enormous number of Karate schools and practitioners out there today... I am not sure that there is any blanket statement that you could make about them that would be accurate. (aside from "they study / train karate")

Interestingly, you have heard from a number of folks here, who study Karate, and agree with the way the founders set it up. And we have mentioned the many different schools, instructors and Karateka, who feel likewise. Does your blanket statement also cover those of us that do agree with founders in these areas and who actively train in this way?

The only Karateka that have grown stagnant, are the ones that think that the Kata defines the techniques of the system and who do not understand the learning method, that kata is a part of.


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## GojuTommy (Oct 31, 2022)

Barry Drennan said:


> Thanks for the insult and attitude. Perhaps you could identify where you see further evolution is required?


I’ve stated where I see karate’s short comings in the modern world several times here now.
You can go back and reread the other posts as I’ve grown tired of repeating myself


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## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2022)

Barry Drennan said:


> Thanks for the insult and attitude. Perhaps you could identify where you see further evolution is required?


His basic complaint is that karate isn't MMA. 🙄


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## drop bear (Nov 1, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> His basic complaint is that karate isn't MMA. 🙄



It could be if you tried.


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## Tez3 (Nov 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> It could be if you tried.


I do karate and MMA why would I want to try to make karate like MMA? Why go through life with one hand tied behind your back limiting what you learn?


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## Barry Drennan (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I’ve stated where I see karate’s short comings in the modern world several times here now.
> You can go back and reread the other posts as I’ve grown tired of repeating myself


I'll pass. There are other conversations more rewarding.


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## Darren (Nov 1, 2022)

Kinda sounds to 


GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


Sounds to me like you don’t sweat enough and not sore enough after a good workout or training session.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I said much more pressure testing is one of the big ones.
> 
> I don’t see any specific tradition as harmful, I see the mindset of some in which a super strict and rigid following of tradition is harmful.
> The fact that so many shy away from grappling, to focus on striking only because it’s “traditional” would be an example
> ...


Most of this is my view. I will add a response to #2: because it's harder that way. Some of what we (some of us who teach) do is not directly about fighting/martial skill. Some of it is just personal development. It could be done in sports and other areas, as wel - we just choose to do it within martial arts. So some things we do are just about what the person gains by doing those things.


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> Not exactly wrong but not 100% correct either. Your perception on kata is one dimensional and rudimentary. The truth is much more complicated. Kata is a structured action pattern that spans multiple levels of muscle memory that is purposely repeated in order for the brain to gain and engrain embodied knowledge.  Embodied knowledge repeated overtime moves from the cognitive parts of the brain to the deeper more automated structures. It can actually change the way the mind works.
> Here is something to blow people's minds..  MMA has kata so does firearm practice and a million other things that people want to get good at. It's called repetition. The only reason naysayers don't see that and think it's different is because they are too busy looking at the wrong things.  Koryu kata for many styles is short one technique actions. What many people see as kata, are the long forms of Chinese styles, which by strict definition wouldn't be called kata now would it. So if I practice a katana draw and cut, it is kata. If I practice my Glock 9mm draw and fire, that is kata too. If I practice a double leg take down into an arm bar,..guess what it's kata.  In fact judo used to have a structured practice of throws called (drum roll please) KATA.
> Now going back to the Chinese forms, there are reasons for the long sequences of strung together techniques.  On a techical level, It has to do with how individual moves link together. Like how a good BJJ practioner sets up moves and is "playing chess". One move is sequenced after another until the final move is achived. The Chinese arts in many cases were able to formalize not just the individual technique but also the transitions and available options. But that's just the technical reasoning. There is a lot more to it. Chinese forms were ment to be exploratory. It was the Japanese that introduced the "kata shouldn't change" mindset. The Japanse were in pre WWII mindset of military conforming doctrine.
> In my view it's not that karate hasn't evolved and needs to change to be better. I just think on the whole the practitioners just suck and are superficial. Much like how the bulk of kids now leave high school and can't read and write. ( speaking only for the USA, I have no knowledge of other countries)
> As MMA and armed self defense evoles and changes the more I look at those changes and say to myself, yeah that's not really anything new, it's been around a long time. There is nothing new under the sun.


excellent post. Overall I agree. But just on the mma and other things have kata stuff, I’m not sure I agree with that.  Kata is a very specific subset of the repetitive training you mention. It’s highly ritualized.  It’s definitely true that most (if not all) activities fill this need for repetitive drills in some way, I don’t think most people would call all of that kata.

Or maybe they would.  😅


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> That's an odd thing to claim.  What's your wrestling/boxing experiences?
> 
> Both are basically freestyle kata.  It's just a sequence of events dude, using certain forms.  That's how you recognize an art...its form and dynamics.
> 
> ...


I’ve been around this forum for a long time and heard a lot of definitions of kata.  This thread seems to be applying the loosest, non traditional definition I’ve ever heard.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I’ve been around this forum for a long time and heard a lot of definitions of kata.  This thread seems to be applying the loosest, non traditional definition I’ve ever heard.


Oh I know.  That's part of the problem, also why some CMA Quan fa "kata" (fist sets in the CMA world) are very graceful and fluid and widowmaker HIIT routines, and other kata like traditional Okiwana sets (some of which are related) look, to the modern eye, fixed and rigid, and range in energy from many karate dojos today (kids, hobbyists, etc.), to competition level athletic quality.

In other words, there's a huge spectrum that took centuries to produce, and is still evolving.

But when I practice Taming the Tiger in the Pattern *工* (a very common, basic, and physically grueling Southern Shaolin fist set), it's no different really, than this shadow wrestling drill in the pattern *十* (that's 10 in Chinese), except that I'm also throwing strikes, level changing, jumping, falling, ripping, pulling, pushing, and generally having a blast while I condition my body.

Right now I'm closing in on a 0.1 calorie burn per lb per minute doing this type of training.  Which is a lot.  Kata rules.






*



*


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> excellent post. Overall I agree. But just on the mma and other things have kata stuff, I’m not sure I agree with that.  Kata is a very specific subset of the repetitive training you mention. It’s highly ritualized.  It’s definitely true that most (if not all) activities fill this need for repetitive drills in some way, I don’t think most people would call all of that kata.
> 
> Or maybe they would.  😅






This is judo kata. Each throw is a different kata.




This is iaido sword kata, there are 7 different kata in this clip.
These are true japanese kata. These types of kata existed long before the term was applied to karate forms. So how can the term kata be defined as a long sequence of movements in the way most people define the word?

I'm not saying kata is not long forms, I'm just trying to point out that the long Chinese form style past down to Okinawa is not the defining characteristics. It's more about the training methodology.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2022)

How is this not kata? Is it any different than the iaido practicing the cut? He explains the concepts, imagine he is talking about karate.  First practice shot is at 4:30 mark if your impatient.


----------



## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> This is judo kata. Each throw is a different kata.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool videos.  I've seen the judo kata many times over the years, but the sword kata is fun to watch.  

I don't have a problem with however folks want to define it.  I will just say that most folks I know are ambivalent to kata. I am only skeptical when folks start asserting that the muscle memory imparted by training kata teaches one how to fight in lieu of application, rather than in support of application.  This seems so obvious as I write it, but there are definitely some cats on this forum who train forms with a mystical reverence.  And to be clear, that's totally fine, but it's probably not imparting as much benefit as they might think.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I do karate and MMA why would I want to try to make karate like MMA? Why go through life with one hand tied behind your back limiting what you learn?



Answered your own question.


----------



## drop bear (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> How is this not kata? Is it any different than the iaido practicing the cut? He explains the concepts, imagine he is talking about karate.  First practice shot is at 4:30 mark if your impatient.



Maybe most gun fighting is garbage. For precisely that reason.


----------



## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> How is this not kata? Is it any different than the iaido practicing the cut? He explains the concepts, imagine he is talking about karate.  First practice shot is at 4:30 mark if your impatient.



Ultimately, I don't have a dog in this hunt.  So, I say train what you like, and have fun.  I don't think doing kata (whether it's like the gun guy above or the more orthodox kata that we think of) is going to make a person worse at anything.  And some folks really get a lot of spiritual fulfillment from it, which is terrific.   There is also a very legitimate cultural element, which I totally understand.

But from an objective training perspective, does kata actually promote skill development?  And if so, does it promote skill development more efficiently than more dynamic drills?  Or is it just something different?

In basic training, I learned to march and to fold my t-shirts into six in squares.  In the remaining 3+ years of my enlistment, I used those skills zero times.  But we did them because, at least, at the time, it was part of it.  We did those things because everyone did those things.  And we were told that it taught us some relevant skills, like attention to detail. But it was also widely known that only an idiot would ever use those t-shirts after folding them the first time.  The trick (that everyone including the instructors knew) is that you lived out of your laundry bag and never touched the inspection ready clothes.  So, why did we do those (and many, many other things like them)?  Did they actually teach us anything other than to march and fold our laundry?  At best, it's an open question.

That's how I think about kata.  Does it teach you anything other than to perform a choreographed set of movements slowly and deliberately?  At best, it's an open question.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> But from an objective training perspective, does kata actually promote skill development? And if so, does it promote skill development more efficiently than more dynamic drills? Or is it just something different?


I will answer the second question first.
I feel it's just something different. Another approach. The big question long ago was, how to train. Kata/ forms was just one societies solution to the problem.
Short answer to the first question is Yes.  But maybe that begs the question, what skills and how developed can kata make it  in my view kata does the same thing as drills. Kata is a methodology.
As an interesting side note. Japanese manufacturing also uses the term kata.
The term is used when you want to apply the method of...
What do we do? Define it exactly.

How can we make it better?  Define an adjustment we want to try.

Did it achieve the desired results? Test it out.

Adjust if needed and repeat the process until you can't get it any better.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> His basic complaint is that karate isn't MMA. 🙄


Again people making **** up.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Darren said:


> Kinda sounds to
> 
> Sounds to me like you don’t sweat enough and not sore enough after a good workout or training session.


Whatever you say, but you can sweat and be sore and still not know how to fight


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Most of this is my view. I will add a response to #2: because it's harder that way. Some of what we (some of us who teach) do is not directly about fighting/martial skill. Some of it is just personal development. It could be done in sports and other areas, as wel - we just choose to do it within martial arts. So some things we do are just about what the person gains by doing those things.


That’s fine, but if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?


----------



## Doc (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> As I understand karate and it’s history, there’s been a constant fluidity and evolution of karate and what would eventually be known as karate.
> However it seems to me that by and large karate has stagnated.
> 
> Sure there’s some people doing some new stuff like kudo, but even that came around in ‘81.
> ...


While everything you stated is very well said and on point, I think you're missing a critical aspect of the evolution of what is called "karate" in general, and methods of its Japanese Origin specifically. The original "kara-te-do," by definition, is done the "way" the prevailing leader or creator of the system designates. Therefore, its mandates are, Japanese Cultural Mandates that by design only allow slow changes, if any, to core material. The original focus of Japanese Karate was never about practicality or function, unlike the Okinawans, but instead, a cultural mandate of discipline and conformity in what was essentially a physical education model. As a young man, I grew up watching Karate follow the Judo Model, and practitioners were known as "karate-do players," much like Judoka were also called "Judo-players" because both were considered "cultural competitive activities" as their primary goals. I watched as slowly it expanded on its original training that focused exclusively on kata as its primary training activity, with minimal 1, 2, and 3-step sparring, to Funakoshi's son pushing more toward competition "free sparring." Karate-do Player was appropriate then. But as an export, karate undertook scrutiny of "fighting" and "self-defense" that wasn't a part of its cultural origin. They dropped the "players" moniker, followed by the "do" designation as selling the art became an issue and a priority. It is here where its cultural revolution really began to the modern product, but even with that, at its core is a set of basics that practitioners adhere to maintain the identity of what many see as a traditional activity sprinkled with some modern ideas, and in some cases necessities. Therefore, even today, there are significant albeit subtle differences between what you see as "karate" versus "Karate-do," and the now-extinct for the most part, "Karate-do Players" of my youth.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2022)

I think the disconnect is that most people only apply the method and think of the solo practice. It's the solo part that limits the development not the kata method. That's why I chose the judo kata clip. But you have to apply what was learned from the kata method. That's the entire point that most people miss. If a Toyota plant only did engineering experiments for the sake of experiments they would go out of business. You got to apply what you learned to the shop floor.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s fine, but if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?


I dont know ask the Tai chi guys and the obscure Chinese weapons guys.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> I’ve been around this forum for a long time and heard a lot of definitions of kata.  This thread seems to be applying the loosest, non traditional definition I’ve ever heard.


Kata, as I understand it, refers to a repetable drill. The strict view of the movements has more to do with the way the arts are taught than the nature of the kata. If you use the same setup to introduce a specific single-leg to new students, that’s much the same thing.  As is a specific drill with the mitts.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Maybe most gun fighting is garbage. For precisely that reason.


Gun fighting training has to start somewhere. New students usually need a simple drill with limited variables, regardless of the topic, in my experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> That’s fine, but if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?


False dichotomy. You can do both.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Doc said:


> While everything you stated is very well said and on point, I think you're missing a critical aspect of the evolution of what is called "karate" in general, and methods of its Japanese Origin specifically. The original "kara-te-do," by definition, is done the "way" the prevailing leader or creator of the system designates. Therefore, its mandates are, Japanese Cultural Mandates that by design only allow slow changes, if any, to core material. The original focus of Japanese Karate was never about practicality or function, unlike the Okinawans, but instead, a cultural mandate of discipline and conformity in what was essentially a physical education model. As a young man, I grew up watching Karate follow the Judo Model, and practitioners were known as "karate-do players," much like Judoka were also called "Judo-players" because both were considered "cultural competitive activities" as their primary goals. I watched as slowly it expanded on its original training that focused exclusively on kata as its primary training activity, with minimal 1, 2, and 3-step sparring, to Funakoshi's son pushing more toward competition "free sparring." Karate-do Player was appropriate then. But as an export, karate undertook scrutiny of "fighting" and "self-defense" that wasn't a part of its cultural origin. They dropped the "players" moniker, followed by the "do" designation as selling the art became an issue and a priority. It is here where its cultural revolution really began to the modern product, but even with that, at its core is a set of basics that practitioners adhere to maintain the identity of what many see as a traditional activity sprinkled with some modern ideas, and in some cases necessities. Therefore, even today, there are significant albeit subtle differences between what you see as "karate" versus "Karate-do," and the now-extinct for the most part, "Karate-do Players" of my youth.


The -do was added post WWII when the occupying forces outlawed fascist, nationalist, or militaristic activities. 
It was added as a way to survive because no one knew how long the US military would be running the country nor how long the ban would be in place. Turns out it ended very quickly, but still at the time they had no way of knowing


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> False dichotomy. You can do both.


I never said you couldn’t, just said you can do one without the other.

I can run down to my basement turn on my  sauna, And spend 30 minutes sweat every day for the next year and not get better at fighting
Meanwhile I can do a minute of light playful sparring every day for a year in a cold space and have some improvement to my ability to fight.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I dont know ask the Tai chi guys and the obscure Chinese weapons guys.


Yes?


----------



## Hyoho (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> This is judo kata. Each throw is a different kata.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As stated below the video this is "Renmei Iaido". It's a made up set of forms taken from classical schools. It is purely "kata". It was designed to introduce kendoka to the sword. At one time ZNKR had a purge insisting that all kendo teachers in Japan should do it. I was tasked with the job of teaching them in my prefecture. It is totally devoid of any creative visualization. In actual fact in competition the one who does it closed to the manual wins. I was admonished many times by my sensei (a hachidan) for trying to put character into my form. Also the renmei "What grade are you taking next?" was prevelant. Although I did practice renmei Iaido and am grateful for the fundamentals it taught me. I moved on as I improved to classical.

 So when we talk about classical schools themselves its different. They take what was a supposedly tried and tested killing technique (waza). to study this waza they break it down into sections called...........kata.

 Sad to say watching the video almost has me dropping off to sleep. I practiced karate for some years and sincerely hope that it does not turn into something like this. When I see a karate embu I look for creative visualization and character.


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## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think the disconnect is that most people only apply the method and think of the solo practice. It's the solo part that limits the development not the kata method. That's why I chose the judo kata clip. But you have to apply what was learned from the kata method. That's the entire point that most people miss. If a Toyota plant only did engineering experiments for the sake of experiments they would go out of business. You got to apply what you learned to the shop floor.


That’s a dilemma for many students because they never get to fight.  The ones who do get better at karate or whatever they are training.


----------



## Steve (Nov 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Kata, as I understand it, refers to a repetable drill. The strict view of the movements has more to do with the way the arts are taught than the nature of the kata. If you use the same setup to introduce a specific single-leg to new students, that’s much the same thing.  As is a specific drill with the mitts.


I wouldn’t call that a kata and personally, I don’t see that as the same.  I think kata is the subset.  All kata is repetitive, but not all repetition is kata.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I dont know ask the Tai chi guys and the obscure Chinese weapons guys.


The definition of the word would say no.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Steve said:


> That’s a dilemma for many students because they never get to fight.  The ones who do get better at karate or whatever they are training.


It’s not that most don’t get to fight, most choose not to.
There’s plenty of opportunities. While I tea-dojo competition isn’t ideal, it’s better than nothing, but still you can find an amateur promotion in every medium sized city/metro area (at least in the US) so for most who never fight it’s a choice, rather than an unfortunate happenstance.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Hyoho said:


> As stated below the video this is "Renmei Iaido". It's a made up set of forms taken from classical schools. It is purely "kata". It was designed to introduce kendoka to the sword. At one time ZNKR had a purge insisting that all kendo teachers in Japan should do it. I was tasked with the job of teaching them in my prefecture. It is totally devoid of any creative visualization. In actual fact in competition the one who does it closed to the manual wins. I was admonished many times by my sensei (a hachidan) for trying to put character into my form. Also the renmei "What grade are you taking next?" was prevelant. Although I did practice renmei Iaido and am grateful for the fundamentals it taught me. I moved on as I improved to classical.
> 
> So when we talk about classical schools themselves its different. They take what was a supposedly tried and tested killing technique (waza). to study this waza they break it down into sections called...........kata.
> 
> Sad to say watching the video almost has me dropping off to sleep. I practiced karate for some years and sincerely hope that it does not turn into something like this. When I see a karate embu I look for creative visualization and character.


The simple fact that kata competitions exist and are so common for adults I would argue that means karate is already there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 1, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Kata, as I understand it, refers to a repetable drill.


I believe

- drill is like a sentence such as "This is a book."
- form (Kata) is like a paragraph which contains more than one sentence such as "This is a *book. What * can I do with a book?"

Please notice that since there exist no logic connection between *book* and *What*, to drill the whole paragraph can have little benefit.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 1, 2022)

You know, dancing might just be the most important human skill.  It can determine mating rituals, popular culture, not to mention all other fine arts.

So why, when we talk about the Japanese styles, it suddenly becomes archaic and unnecessary?  That's like saying one must not bother with Kierkegaard before reading Satre or Beckett.

Sorry I was watching Staying Alive again and it always gets me thinking.  Most people don't get it, but it's one of the best kung Fu movies ever made.

0% on Rotten Tomatoes, it's that good.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Maybe most gun fighting is garbage. For precisely that reason.


You are probably right about this. We have objective facts and data regarding what works in gunfights. Unfortunately, just like any martial art, not everyone gets equal training, or equal access to that data.


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## Darren (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Whatever you say, but you can sweat and be sore and still not know how to fight


You are so very correct on this!!!


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## GojuTommy (Nov 1, 2022)

Tez3 said:


> I do karate and MMA why would I want to try to make karate like MMA? Why go through life with one hand tied behind your back limiting what you learn?


MMA isn’t a style so how do you ‘do mma’?


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## Darren (Nov 1, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Whatever you say, but you can sweat and be sore and still not know how to fight


In fact I will go a couple of steps further, in my younger years I was a couple of places I should not have been! I had 3.5 years of martial art experience at the time, long story short I grabbed ahold of this guy but I forgot one thing”you grab someone you will get hit”! Caught a very hard round house punch to my jaw never saw it coming but I should have because I forgot the number one rule, you will get hit if you grab ahold of someone it is a given!!!! Thank you for pointing that out!!!!!!


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## Tez3 (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> MMA isn’t a style so how do you ‘do mma’?


😂😂😂😂😂 

Now that is pathetic, if you can't understand English no wonder you're confused.

VERB


perform (an action, the precise nature of which is often unspecified):
"very little work has been done in this field" · 
[More]
synonyms:
carry out · undertake · discharge · execute · perpetrate ·
[More]
achieve or complete:
"I never really got the chance to finish school or do my exams"
act or behave in a specified way:
"they are free to do as they please" · 
[More]
synonyms:
act · behave · conduct oneself · acquit oneself · comport oneself · deport oneself
One does many things, including laughing at pettiness but hey, you do you. 😂


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You are probably right about this. We have objective facts and data regarding what works in gunfights. Unfortunately, just like any martial art, not everyone gets equal training, or equal access to that data.



Or equal ability to understand it.

I don't like anecdotes at the best of times. We get the same problem with what works in street fights. Which is dependent on the guy you are fighting.






This worked on the street.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Gun fighting training has to start somewhere. New students usually need a simple drill with limited variables, regardless of the topic, in my experience.



Yeah. But they tend to be pretty fixated on dead drills and stories. And less on resistance and scientific method.


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## _Simon_ (Nov 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> This worked on the street.


Word is, they're still fighting to this day...

Seriously I wonder how long that went! That was mesmerising!! 🤣 I can only hope and dream I look like that when I spar!


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## _Simon_ (Nov 2, 2022)

Stumbled upon this quote, quite like it:

"_*When we connect with our ancestors and put their wisdom into action, we are evolving our collective consciousness. We are transporting the ancient truths of our collective past and birthing them into our future. What we create out of those truths extends the wisdom of all those who have gone before us, and it provides a guide for all those who will follow."*_

~ Sherri Mitchell


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> It’s not that most don’t get to fight, most choose not to.
> There’s plenty of opportunities. While I tea-dojo competition isn’t ideal, it’s better than nothing, but still you can find an amateur promotion in every medium sized city/metro area (at least in the US) so for most who never fight it’s a choice, rather than an unfortunate happenstance.


6 in one.  I can completely understand the desire to avoid fights.  But the fact remains that you can only get so good at something you don’t do.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> You are probably right about this. We have objective facts and data regarding what works in gunfights. Unfortunately, just like any martial art, not everyone gets equal training, or equal access to that data.


I’m very interested in this.  Can you share some of the facts and data you’re thinking about?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I never said you couldn’t, just said you can do one without the other.
> 
> I can run down to my basement turn on my  sauna, And spend 30 minutes sweat every day for the next year and not get better at fighting
> Meanwhile I can do a minute of light playful sparring every day for a year in a cold space and have some improvement to my ability to fight.


In response to me saying some things in our training aren't necessarily focused on fighting skills, you said "...if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?"

If you didn't mean to say my statement was talking about not developing martial skill, what did you mean to say with those words?

If you're arguing about efficiency of training for combat, you'll get no argument from me. What I do isn't the most efficient path, for a number of reasons. The two main ones are priorities (I don't put self defense above all other concerns) and self-preservation (I believe the most efficient path to combat effectiveness is more brutal than I'm willing to participate in).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I wouldn’t call that a kata and personally, I don’t see that as the same.  I think kata is the subset.  All kata is repetitive, but not all repetition is kata.


That's just my understanding of what constitutes kata. It's a predefined set of movements with specified parameters, meant to be used in repetitive drills. So the way I teach a hip throw (not part of the Classical kata in NGA) is the same for every student - much the same way it was introduced to me in Judo. 

And the same was true of the single-leg I was taught some years ago by an MMA guy (back then, I think he was BJJ and boxing, but he might have been from a collegiate wrestling background). He taught all of us with the same set-up, same entry, and same takedown. He expected things to end up pretty nearly the same way each time, with the allowance of difference for how the person fell, which is the same I've experienced in Judo (where I don't think we used the original formal kata, but a more relaxed version) and NGA (where we still do use the more formal kata).

If I understand the difference you perceive, it's about how strict we are about the variations. And I can see that - it's how I used to see it, until I got deeper into my primary art and started looking at variations within the kata. And I allow a fair amount of those variations from students, so long as they meet the expected principles. Just as I do with the less-formals stuff. The only real difference (and this is within my own usage) is the formal versions have a stricter definition of the input than the informal versions. Which is a pretty nuanced difference between them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> The definition of the word would say no.


It really depends how we define the term "martial arts", because you can't really define it by the individual words. Ignoring the whole issue with defining what "arts" means in that context, almost nothing we learn in MA is focused on battlefield usage these days (except some arts trying to preserve those ways), so arent really "martial" in that sense.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe
> 
> - drill is like a sentence such as "This is a book."
> - form (Kata) is like a paragraph which contains more than one sentence such as "This is a *book. What * can I do with a book?"
> ...


That's not really true of shorter kata, like the traditional ones in Daito-ryu. They are short, and no longer than a simple throwing drill.


----------



## Steve (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> MMA isn’t a style so how do you ‘do mma’?


I think MMA is a style and also a sport.  I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But they tend to be pretty fixated on dead drills and stories. And less on resistance and scientific method.


I'm not really sure how that relates to the first drill a beginner gets. I don't want them fighting against resistance the first time they do a new technique. I want them to get fed an easy entry and to do the motions that make the principles work. Once they can do that a little, we can talk about how to deal with resistance.

As for scientific method, that's in no way contradictory to drills that are very simplified for a beginner. We can pick and choose the best techniques for a context based on the best data, and still use simplified drills to introduce them.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think MMA is a style and also a sport.  I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?


Agreed. Maybe it's a group of styles - an umbrella term? Because it'd be fairly different on a BJJ/boxing base than on a catch wrestling/MT base. But the overall approach to training would be recognizable.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think MMA is a style and also a sport.  I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?


I think it's ambiguous because any single MMA person I ever meet has a unique training history.  There's no one set of arts.  There are very common ones.

Sure a lot of MMA schools standardize on those, but I don't think they are always that comprehensive.

I asked a local MMA gym owner if he knew what Lei Tai was.  

"Muay Thai?"

"Lei Tai.."

That was a funny conversation.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Agreed. Maybe it's a group of styles - an umbrella term? Because it'd be fairly different on a BJJ/boxing base than on a catch wrestling/MT base. But the overall approach to training would be recognizable.


Syncretic is the word I think you're looking for.  Basically, a word that describes the combination of different ideas/themes.

Though some individual styles are themselves syncretic.  Hung Ga, Muay Thai are great examples....a LOT of styles were absorbed into those.


----------



## Steve (Nov 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I think it's ambiguous because any single MMA person I ever meet has a unique training history.  There's no one set of arts.  There are very common ones.
> 
> Sure a lot of MMA schools standardize on those, but I don't think they are always that comprehensive.
> 
> ...


Yes and no.  I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms.  Time marches on.


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I think MMA is a style and also a sport.  I mean, you can go to an MMA gym and train. Right?


You can go to a gym that’s intended to prepare you compete in the mma ruleset and learn a mixture of styles, from a multitude of coaches specialized in those styles.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yes and no.  I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms.  Time marches on.


And then there's the fabulous Dominick Cruz, who actually learned the Firefighter style (which is most definitely a fighting style) after becoming a wrestling guru as a young man, lost a scholarship, became a UFC legend.

Here he is showing a very obvious Leopard Kung Fu strike, "through the sleeve".  Now I don't know what all the styles are Dom trains, but I'm willing to bet real money he will learn anything, and that's what makes him an elite fighter.

I pity people who only learn a couple arts.  If you're really into this stuff, why hold yourself back?


----------



## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> In response to me saying some things in our training aren't necessarily focused on fighting skills, you said "...if being better at fighting isn’t a side effect of martial arts training, are you really training a martial art?"
> 
> If you didn't mean to say my statement was talking about not developing martial skill, what did you mean to say with those words?
> 
> If you're arguing about efficiency of training for combat, you'll get no argument from me. What I do isn't the most efficient path, for a number of reasons. The two main ones are priorities (I don't put self defense above all other concerns) and self-preservation (I believe the most efficient path to combat effectiveness is more brutal than I'm willing to participate in).


To me your comment sounded very much like the same thing I’ve heard/seen other people say to excuse training methodologies that don’t teach people how to fight in any circumstances.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Or equal ability to understand it.
> 
> I don't like anecdotes at the best of times. We get the same problem with what works in street fights. Which is dependent on the guy you are fighting.
> 
> ...


Absolutely agree with you here.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> Yes and no.  I mean there are a lot of mma gyms around and an increasing number of young fighters who have only ever trained in those gyms.  Time marches on.


I think there will be a time when distinctive new styles or arts will emerge from gyms that train for mma, and the funny part is in the end they will look like karate in their functionality.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> And then there's the fabulous Dominick Cruz, who actually learned the Firefighter style (which is most definitely a fighting style) after becoming a wrestling guru as a young man, lost a scholarship, became a UFC legend.
> 
> Here he is showing a very obvious Leopard Kung Fu strike, "through the sleeve".  Now I don't know what all the styles are Dom trains, but I'm willing to bet real money he will learn anything, and that's what makes him an elite fighter.
> 
> ...


There’s only so many different ways for the body to move, the biggest if not only real differences between styles is training methodologies, and what kinds of techniques they focus on.

But for many they limit themselves because there’s only so much time available and only so much money to pay for training. As much as I enjoyed training karate and my teenage fight nights by the river, i do have other interests and hobbies, some of which are rather expensive on their own unfortunately.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

Steve said:


> I’m very interested in this.  Can you share some of the facts and data you’re thinking about?


Talking about specific tactics and training that we have lots of footage and experience in. Take a simple thing like dismounting from vehicle and spacing while moving. Watch some of what the Russian troops are doing lately. They dismount the second that they draw fire, then bunch up around the vehicle. This is attributed to a lack of infantry training. Watch them muzzle each other over and over. It makes me wonder what their friendly fire accident toll is at this point. We can go farther with this. Take a CQB training course for instance. Positioning and covering corners is basics. The way to stack for entry, etc. @drop bear has said he was a breacher if I remember correctly. He is likely more qualified to speak to the entry training. My point is that it takes quite some time for our military to train people to be able to execute this with precision. It takes time because it is not an intuitive pursuit. Our military excels as a result. You are correct that people don’t get good at things they don’t do. That is the reason why each armed conflict brings new lessons, and updates techniques. Often great discoveries have come from warfare, my favorite example is the stirrup.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> To me your comment sounded very much like the same thing I’ve heard/seen other people say to excuse training methodologies that don’t teach people how to fight in any circumstances.


So, if someone includes anything not directed at fighting, you assume nothing they do is?


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So, if someone includes anything not directed at fighting, you assume nothing they do is?


I base my judgements on my experience.
People can train and ‘better themselves’ in many ways, but in my experience those who train in manners that promote the ability to fight don’t talk about self improvement, because they’re busy self improving and training.


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## Tez3 (Nov 2, 2022)

_How nice it would be if people did train in manners though._

Training in 'things' not directly connected to fighting would be things like strength and/or weight training, cardio, learning proper stretching for injury prevention, agility training ( like dogs do preferably 😂😂 seriously though it's good for groundwork). Going through fight tactics, some psychology is useful 😃. From a ref's point of view learn the rules of the style/class you are competing in, *please!*


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Talking about specific tactics and training that we have lots of footage and experience in. Take a simple thing like dismounting from vehicle and spacing while moving. Watch some of what the Russian troops are doing lately. They dismount the second that they draw fire, then bunch up around the vehicle. This is attributed to a lack of infantry training. Watch them muzzle each other over and over. It makes me wonder what their friendly fire accident toll is at this point. We can go farther with this. Take a CQB training course for instance. Positioning and covering corners is basics. The way to stack for entry, etc. @drop bear has said he was a breacher if I remember correctly. He is likely more qualified to speak to the entry training. My point is that it takes quite some time for our military to train people to be able to execute this with precision. It takes time because it is not an intuitive pursuit. Our military excels as a result. You are correct that people don’t get good at things they don’t do. That is the reason why each armed conflict brings new lessons, and updates techniques. Often great discoveries have come from warfare, my favorite example is the stirrup.



I am not a gun guy. Just so you know.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> That's not really true of shorter kata, like the traditional ones in Daito-ryu. They are short, and no longer than a simple throwing drill.


You are right. In the throwing art, a drill may be called as a form. Chinese wrestling has 24 forms. Actually there are 24 drills that's repeated left and right.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> I base my judgements on my experience.
> People can train and ‘better themselves’ in many ways, but in my experience those who train in manners that promote the ability to fight don’t talk about self improvement, because they’re busy self improving and training.


So, again, you're saying they're mutually exclusive, which they are not. Adding balance training that goes beyond what's useful for combat doesn't inherently prevent someone from developing fighting skills. Could they develop those skills faster if they were the highest priority? Yes. But it's not binary - they can do something _less well _and still do that thing.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> So, again, you're saying they're mutually exclusive, which they are not. Adding balance training that goes beyond what's useful for combat doesn't inherently prevent someone from developing fighting skills. Could they develop those skills faster if they were the highest priority? Yes. But it's not binary - they can do something _less well _and still do that thing.


Again, someone claiming I stated things I’ve never said.

If a school wants to include a 20 minute mindfulness meditation period in their classes, idc, as long as they’re not saying something that’s untrue. Meditation can help with things like mental reaction time, but it needs to be clear that it’s like hundredths of a second, and it won’t make you physically react faster or some how make time slow down for you.

Idc if someone does stuff in class for ‘self improvement’ but if that’s the whole point and goal of your class, don’t call yourself a martial arts instructor, you’re a life coach, don’t put the words self defense on your website or signage.

Schools that teach people to fight can teach things the count as self improvement, but I don’t see them advertising that often, and in my experience the people who talk about how their style is about self improvement, can’t fight.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I am not a gun guy. Just so you know.


I am aware but you did serve in the military didn’t you? That makes you qualified to speak to the topic. You have training from some of the world‘s best.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I am aware but you did serve in the military didn’t you? That makes you qualified to speak to the topic. You have training from some of the world‘s best.


Serving in the military doesn’t qualify someone to speak about guns.
Do you believe a naval engineer is qualified to discuss gun fighting? Or an air force cook?
My experience I’ve trained roughly 200 sailors in basic marksmanship and safe fire arms handling, and I’m not qualified to authoritatively speak on gun fighting(unless we’re talking about the real big guns)


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Again, someone claiming I stated things I’ve never said.


You just did. Reread what I quoted.


GojuTommy said:


> If a school wants to include a 20 minute mindfulness meditation period in their classes, idc, as long as they’re not saying something that’s untrue. Meditation can help with things like mental reaction time, but it needs to be clear that it’s like hundredths of a second, and it won’t make you physically react faster or some how make time slow down for you.


None of which has any bearing on the discussion at hand.


GojuTommy said:


> Idc if someone does stuff in class for ‘self improvement’ but if that’s the whole point and goal of your class, don’t call yourself a martial arts instructor, you’re a life coach, don’t put the words self defense on your website or signage.


Again, not relevant to the discussion at hand.


GojuTommy said:


> Schools that teach people to fight can teach things the count as self improvement, but I don’t see them advertising that often, and in my experience the people who talk about how their style is about self improvement, can’t fight.


Which would have been a more reasonable statement to make in your original response to my comment.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You just did. Reread what I quoted.
> 
> None of which has any bearing on the discussion at hand.
> 
> ...


My original statement was based on my experience. As I’ve started.
If you don’t like that oh well.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Serving in the military doesn’t qualify someone to speak about guns.
> Do you believe a naval engineer is qualified to discuss gun fighting? Or an air force cook?
> My experience I’ve trained roughly 200 sailors in basic marksmanship and safe fire arms handling, and I’m not qualified to authoritatively speak on gun fighting(unless we’re talking about the real big guns)


@drop bear was a breacher. That takes some training in gun fighting. This is an Internet forum, anyone is qualified to speak on any topic they like. I was inviting him to speak on a topic because I believed he might have something valuable to add.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> Serving in the military doesn’t qualify someone to speak about guns.
> Do you believe a naval engineer is qualified to discuss gun fighting? Or an air force cook?
> My experience I’ve trained roughly 200 sailors in basic marksmanship and safe fire arms handling, and I’m not qualified to authoritatively speak on gun fighting(unless we’re talking about the real big guns)


If you read the entirety of the conversation you might have something valuable to add. Feel free.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> My original statement was based on my experience. As I’ve started.
> If you don’t like that oh well.


What exactly is your experience? It must be rather extensive, as you obviously feel qualified to speak from it with authority. It is my experience that people that jump into the middle of a conversation only to deride and claim superiority are not coming from a place of substance, but rather insecurity and ineptitude. If you don’t like that, oh well.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 2, 2022)

Bloody British army doesn't know what it's coming to ..


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> @drop bear was a breacher. That takes some training in gun fighting. This is an Internet forum, anyone is qualified to speak on any topic they like. I was inviting him to speak on a topic because I believed he might have something valuable to add.


Qualified to speak on a subject and able to speak on a subject are two very different things.

Also breacher can mean a wide variety of things in regards to training and knowledge of gun fighting. A navy breacher will have little more experience than myself. A marine breacher is a different story, etc.


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## GojuTommy (Nov 2, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> What exactly is your experience? It must be rather extensive, as you obviously feel qualified to speak from it with authority. It is my experience that people that jump into the middle of a conversation only to deride and claim superiority are not coming from a place of substance, but rather insecurity and ineptitude. If you don’t like that, oh well.


I’ve literally listed what my experience on the subject already feel free to go back and reread.


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## Steve (Nov 2, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Bloody British army doesn't know what it's coming to ..


At one time, I was quite good at marching up and down the square.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2022)

GojuTommy said:


> My original statement was based on my experience. As I’ve started.
> If you don’t like that oh well.


So a very limited sample. Good enough.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 2, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> This is iaido sword kata, there are 7 different kata in this clip.
> These are true japanese kata. These types of kata existed long before the term was applied to karate forms. So how can the term kata be defined as a long sequence of movements in the way most people define the word?
> 
> I'm not saying kata is not long forms, I'm just trying to point out that the long Chinese form style past down to Okinawa is not the defining characteristics. It's more about the training methodology.


The kata shown in this video are only the FIRST kata taught.  These are generally standard forms practiced by most schools, I think, whatever their particular ryu is.  The kata curriculum starts to differ from style to style as it gets more advanced.  As can be seen in the second half of the clip, the forms tend to get longer.  By the time one is training for black belt and beyond, they can be much longer.  BTW, I thought her performance was very clean and well executed.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 4, 2022)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Opinions are good. So are strong opinions. But let's keep it friendly, or threads get locked and people get suspended or banned. Let's not do that.

Mark A Cochran
@Dirty Dog 
MartialTalk Senior Moderator


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