# Weng Chun Chi Sau & chinese wresting?



## Si-Je (Jan 27, 2009)

That Weng Chun style is my new fascination!  I always wondered what the shaolin style of WC would look like.  This seems like it would be what it might be.  
I really like the way she uses her whole body when she does wrist rolls, and re-direction.
Their chi sau is fascinating too.  Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice. 
Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up.  I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done.  And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.
I'm feeling like DUH, step into them and to their side when their force/pressure is too great!
Why no one do this?  Why is everyone so stationary in chi sau?
I can understand being stationary to learn it at first, but as you advance wouldn't you practice chi sau as you would WC application?  By moving into AND to the side of the opponent, turning their body and flowing around their force?

look at this video again.. my Sifu says it looks like they use the butterfly swords alot and base alot of their empty hand technique on the movements of the butterfly swords.  
Chi Sau at 2:35




 
This video is cool too:
Weng Chun form at the beginning.  Notice how they roll the torso with the hand and small wrist movements.
Neat dan chi? drill at 38 seconds..And it looks like their chi sau works in more close quarters than I've seen in other WT/WC styles chi sau.  They almost look "jamed up" their so close, or collapsed.  Their stance is very wide, looks like the butterfly sword stance, or the dragon pole stances.
You'll see at 3:18 their weapons stuff.  Looks like they use the "escrima" style sticks just like they would the butterfly swords.  
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RuACNJIuMY
And the kicker, looks like chinese wrestling at 1:45, WC ground fighting techniques. Looks like suai chao takedowns and throws. (can't spell that, sorry. )

What are all ya'lls thoughts?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 27, 2009)

> Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.


 
At my Tai Chi class we do both Stationary Chi Sau then we go on to moving Chi Sau. We do of course push hands too. Both stationary and movement. But some bigger people prefet stationary. It allows them to use their power more. Like this one older guy. He loves to uproot you. Which means nothing to me. Because I am smaller guy so he can move out of my stance with enough strength I just continous hit him while he is uprooting. An this one guy did moving chi sau with one time...He is alot older an couldn't do it too well. He is more of non-movement type of guy. But some of the younger guys love to move an do chi sau. It eventually becomes a an out sparring match. Lol..



> I can understand being stationary to learn it at first, but as you advance wouldn't you practice chi sau as you would WC application? By moving into AND to the side of the opponent, turning their body and flowing around their force?


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 27, 2009)

Check out Bruce Lee and Yip man and others I love this video





 
I love these chi sau videos!





 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-232DNU8_TI&NR=1


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## mook jong man (Jan 27, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> That Weng Chun style is my new fascination! I always wondered what the shaolin style of WC would look like. This seems like it would be what it might be.
> I really like the way she uses her whole body when she does wrist rolls, and re-direction.
> Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.
> Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up. I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done. And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.
> ...


 
I don't know man the first thing that springs to my mind is Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon . It looks like somebody learnt a bit of Wing Chun and added it to Wu Shu . I didn't watch the whole clip , but the bit where she spins around with the knives that would be suicide .

 The movements seem to be very big and flowery and not at all compact and direct like the Wing Chun I am used to. The Chi Sau they do seems to be very open and they are actually hunched over , it would be very interesting to see if they could stop a fast palm strike to the chest  , I know I can't even if my Fook Sau is a little bit off center , let alone like theirs are .

 The women is skilled obviously , but to me it looks like some one has taken Wing Chun and tried to jazz it up some what . There are some applications you could take from it and make them work , but the bulk of their techniques leave you too exposed for my liking .

 I do agree with one thing you should move around in Chi Sau , Sigung says that it stops your thighs from tensing up , relaxed thighs are a very important part of the stance and teaches you to move your body as one unit .

 As for moving to the side I would often trap people in chi sau sparring by reefing them off to the side with both hands ala Bil Gee and attack their blind side .
 But still a very interesting video and good to see how other people do things .


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## geezer (Jan 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Their chi sau is fascinating too.  Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.
> Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up.  I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done.  And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.



I never thought of good WT/WC chi sau as "stationary". You move with your opponent's force... always springing forward, flowing around, being pressed back, turning aside to spill the pressure, and springing forward again... with your hands, arms, legs, and body. The difference is that the movements are very small and economical. Never move an inch more than you have too.

The woman's movements in the video were elegant, powerful and beautiful. But, to me, they did not look as economical as the WT/WC I'm more familiar with.


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## kaizasosei (Jan 28, 2009)

First time i hear of the style...the lady looks quite tough.  Pretty hot too. I'd keep my distance though until i know it's safe to make a move.


j


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## Si-Je (Jan 28, 2009)

Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
Just a theory.  

As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do.  I just liked it.
I'm little, I've got to move more like that, but more forward into partner.  We've been working on that this week, otherwise I get pushed back when doing chi sau with Sifu Hubbie.  And eventually get tense because I'm tired of getting pushed backward! Ack!
Pivot relieves some of the pressure, but then he pivots and I'm right back where I started, getting pushed backwards.
If I step and pivot to his side and move my butt, I get better results.  Should've been taught that at the get go.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 28, 2009)

Well after practicing those steps for a long time one should automatically try to adapt them to Chi Sau. This could give you an advantage!





Si-Je said:


> Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
> Just a theory.
> 
> As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do. I just liked it.
> ...


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## Si-Je (Jan 28, 2009)

I went to TaiJi Legacy years ago when I first started taking WT/WC.  The guys sparring were total line fighters.  All they did was blast stright into eachother chainpunching and hook kicking.  (never once did I see someone use Heel Kick) and bam! guess what?  They both just there in the middle of the ring chainpunching the crap out of eachother.  Looked like a cock fight! lol!
They fight, moving straight forward and go straight backwards.
Yuck, and I'll tell you why.
Would a female do this against a big guy?  And not be defeated? Why chainpunch your opponent, if their doing the very same to you?
Move!
Move forward AND to the side.  And these were advanced students competing from schools all over the nation, and some from overseas.
No body moves to the side in sparring, fighting?
Chi Sau competition was even worse.  They just stayed there, stationary, not hardly kicking, no side stepping.  Lots of pivots, but so what?  Each hardly ever got the other trapped, hit, etc.  What's the point of training for the stalemate?
These are two times where the WC training of each student should have become "live".  You train like that in class stationary to learn chi sau, but now your SPARRING with Chi sau.  Whether in Chi Sau competition or continious sparring free style.  There was not "liveness", just programmed charging in chainpunching in advanced stance (man, I'm hating that C-stepping advanced stance more and more. It makes people one dimentional) 
That stance should ONLY be used when wedging the opponents stance and structure.  Not when your 5 feet or more from them "skipping" as you chain punch the air chasing after the opponent's face.  
Just my opinion.  Sorry, got a bit fussy there.  
But, it does bother me.  This is the attitude that gets Wing Chunners beat when going against a grappler, MT fighter, or boxer.  Charging into "nothing", telegraphing their movments from a room away, it takes all the "deception" away from WC/WT.  And it's predictable, readable, and anticipatable, thus easier to counter.

Stepping to the sides AND forward into opponent.  Only chain punching when they are in range to actually hit. Using wedging stance (C-step, whatever) to trip, tip over, or attack the opponent's stance, turn them, etc. not as an actual "charging" stance.  (Unless you're like Sifu Emin and can take one step in C-stepping, humbo stance and just ZOOM across the entire room in one motion! lol! wish I could do that!) 
"Best way to not get hit, no be there." Mr. Miagai.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 28, 2009)

Yea well we use c-step, and also counter step or diamond step...this moves to your opponents side...we also have side step...which we have to use...because alot of the students are bigger than teachers...




Si-Je said:


> I went to TaiJi Legacy years ago when I first started taking WT/WC. The guys sparring were total line fighters. All they did was blast stright into eachother chainpunching and hook kicking. (never once did I see someone use Heel Kick) and bam! guess what? They both just there in the middle of the ring chainpunching the crap out of eachother. Looked like a cock fight! lol!
> They fight, moving straight forward and go straight backwards.
> Yuck, and I'll tell you why.
> Would a female do this against a big guy? And not be defeated? Why chainpunch your opponent, if their doing the very same to you?
> ...


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## Si-Je (Jan 28, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> Yea well we use c-step, and also counter step or diamond step...this moves to your opponents side...we also have side step...which we have to use...because alot of the students are bigger than teachers...


 
Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent.  Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately.  People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent.  Chainpunching the air all the way there too.


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## mook jong man (Jan 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
> Just a theory.
> 
> As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do. I just liked it.
> ...


 
I was always told to manouver  around a big heavy opponent as though they were a big heavy wooden dummy . If it takes too much effort to shift them , then shift your self instead . 

In fact It might be a good exercise for you to do , to have your husband stand there with his arms out rigid like a wooden dummy and you move around him , keeping in contact with his arms and flowing around them with your various techniques .

 Don't forget to use your legs as well , when you are on the outside of his arms pull him into low kicks with one or both hands to counter his range advantage .
P.S. please do not ask me how you can simulate the 3rd low arm.  :uhohh:


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 28, 2009)

Ha ha...no...I usually wait for the opponent to approach me an when they are in two to one front step distance or lunge step distance I move in with a front kick or kick to the shins. While chainpunching or attempting a wrist lock to punch. 

C-step is manuever for when your in the clinch or trapping range...its not distance travel step...front step that kinda of lunges is good for taking distance..But people typically come to me..So i counter. Circle or side step. Bagua walking the circle works well with With Wing Chun. I think a stepping side kick helps bridge the gap too.

But five feet..wow..you might do a fifty to hundred c-steps...lol...thats not economical...in my opinion. WC steps like counter and c-step is for inside fighting mostly.



Si-Je said:


> Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent. Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too.


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## mook jong man (Jan 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent. Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too.


 
What is C- stepping ?
Yeah throwing out attacks before your in range is a waste of energy and just plain stupid. There is a critical distance where your attacks will land and any attack you launch out of this critical distance will quickly be countered . 

This distance can be increased with skill of course , I remember my own Sifu could bridge a gap with a charging knee and cover well over 3 metres in the blink of an eye . But for the average student it means you should wait until the attacker is in kicking range . Be like a cat , don't pounce until it is too late for the prey to get away .


Si-Je you are definitely on the right track with your stepping movements , what works for your husband will not necessarely work for you , I learned very early on from experimentation that a backward step with one leg pivoting the whole body will counter a powerful forward charge , same thing goes for stepping forward 45 degrees as well . 

You can't always depend on a stationary pivot , sometimes the force can be too great , especially if your training with a big Wing Chun guy who knows how to move their weight . The picture you paint of the Wing Chun guys trying to out chain punch each other is comical I must say , for heavens sake learn to develop the skill of throwing a low heel kick when the hands are occupied . 

If for whatever reason some one is matching your hand speed or you just can't break through their defences start throwing low heel kicks , give them something else to think about . Its not likely they will be able to stop a fast low heel kick while their hands are occupied , remember if you can't break through in a matter of seconds start throwing those kicks .

 I just happen to know a good exercise that you can use to cultivate this reflex , when you are doing chi sau , start moving forward doing a light low heel kick to your partners knee with each step you take .

 Go up the room a couple of metres then give your partner a go coming back , do the same thing with the hook kick , hook kick the inside of thigh , hook kick the outside of the thigh and then combine it with low heel kick, each time you step one of your legs does an inside or outside hook kick and the other leg does a low heel kick .

 One of the problems that students have with this exercise is that because they are thinking about their legs they slack off on the forward force in their chi sau , make sure you keep a continuous flow of forward force through your arms even though you are thinking about your legs .

 If you have a forward force that comes on and off each time you raise your leg a good Wing Chun man can detect that shift in weight and know that you are about to kick and be able to counter it by hitting you , throwing you off to the side , or simply jamming your kick.


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## geezer (Jan 28, 2009)

Si-Je said:


> Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately.  People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent.  Chainpunching the air all the way there too.



Mook's right. Chasing after your opponent, throwing air-punches when you are clearly out of range is a pointless waste of energy. If you can't catch 'em, it's probably better it hang back in character-two stance looking vulnerable, and when they move in to attack you, explode forward! 

As regards fighting your hubby, see if you can slip behind him and punch him in the back. I can't tell you exactly how to do that... but my wife did it to me and it hurt like hell. And she doesn't even know Wing Tsun. I think it's some kind of devious ability carried in the XX chromasomes. The longer I stay married, the more I believe the Yim Wing Chun legend!


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't know why they are chain punching the air..never heard that one. Unless their punches are being blocked by their opponent...What do you guys think of this video...do you think this is Wing Chun answer to Muay Thai fighthers?:

http://video.google.com/videosearch...-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=bruce li&hl=en&emb=0&start=0


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## dungeonworks (Jan 29, 2009)

geezer said:


> ....As regards fighting your hubby, see if you can slip behind him and punch him in the back. I can't tell you exactly how to do that... but my wife did it to me and it hurt like hell. And she doesn't even know Wing Tsun. I think it's some kind of devious ability carried in the XX chromasomes. The longer I stay married, the more I believe the Yim Wing Chun legend!



That hurt laughing the hot coffee out of my nose!   I can relate to this Geezer!


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## dungeonworks (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> I don't know why they are chain punching the air..never heard that one. Unless their punches are being blocked by their opponent...What do you guys think of this video...do you think this is Wing Chun answer to Muay Thai fighthers?:
> 
> http://video.google.com/videosearch...-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=bruce li&hl=en&emb=0&start=0



I don't see what you mean???  Looks just like any counter punch with spinning kick from Tae Kwon Do or Karate style...just a little more flowery, for lack of better word.

Bagua is more internal style like Tai Chi correct???  My friend takes it and like it a lot.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> At my Tai Chi class we do both Stationary Chi Sau then we go on to moving Chi Sau. We do of course push hands too. Both stationary and movement. But some bigger people prefet stationary. It allows them to use their power more. Like this one older guy. He loves to uproot you. Which means nothing to me. Because I am smaller guy so he can move out of my stance with enough strength I just continous hit him while he is uprooting. An this one guy did moving chi sau with one time...He is alot older an couldn't do it too well. He is more of non-movement type of guy. But some of the younger guys love to move an do chi sau. It eventually becomes a an out sparring match. Lol..


 
Just as a note; Taiji push hands is Tuishou, there are just various types of tuishou from stationary to free style.

Chi sau is Cantonese for the Mandarin tuishou.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?




dungeonworks said:


> I don't see what you mean??? Looks just like any counter punch with spinning kick from Tae Kwon Do or Karate style...just a little more flowery, for lack of better word.
> 
> Bagua is more internal style like Tai Chi correct??? My friend takes it and like it a lot.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Jan 29, 2009)

> How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?


 One does straight lines and one goes around straight lines using angles though both are not absolutes.

There was a famous fight between Bagua(circling) and Xingyi(straight line)

Neither could defeat the other thus the legend is you see both training in each other art.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?


 
To me questions like this are much the same as how would you suggest a Wing Chun person roller skates or how would you suggest a wing Chun person eats lunch or what is the best way for a Wing Chun person to get through airport security

There really is no answer since no 2 people are exactly the same and most will approach it differently

If you are looking to standardize a wing chun response to bagua all I can say is ultimately the wing chun person will lose since you will only have one response and no 2 bagua fighters are going to approach the fight the same way and much of their response will depend on the force and energy thrown at them by the wing chun person. Best to train wing chun and forget about how to defeat style A or how to best style B IMHO and just trust in your training of Wing Chun.

And more to JadecloudAlchemist's post. How would a wing chun person fight a Bagua/Xingyi person that might be switching styles on you during the fight. Or a Shanxi style Xingyiquan person that learned circle walking as part of Xingyiquan or Gao style Bagua person that trained linear attacks? There is no answer.

 Just train wing chun, use what you learn and if you did it right it should work for you just fine


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

Well to answer the question how WC guy roller skates I can share that with you...typically I roller skate in linear path although we are skating in the circle my leg movements are linear. I tend to crazy legs on two wheels and also sometimes I crazy leg on one foot. I also do some oneleg spins. I don't do splits on skates any more...I need to get that flexibility back. But I can also skate from side body stance similiar to a horse stance only with both toes pointing outwards...pretty cool huh?





Xue Sheng said:


> To me questions like this are much the same as how would you suggest a Wing Chun person roller skates or how would you suggest a wing Chun person eats lunch or what is the best way for a Wing Chun person to get through airport security
> 
> There really is no answer since no 2 people are exactly the same and most will approach it differently
> 
> ...


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## dungeonworks (Jan 29, 2009)

Yoshiyahu said:


> How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?



Watch what comes in, avoid or redirect the attack, follow it back in and attack off of that.  The round kick in that video?  Easy, front kick the hip and follow up with punching or move in and jam him up.

Outside of Wing Chun?  Dodge the kick, shoot for a takedown since round kicks are a ripe invitation for them in most instances, and work from there depending upon the millions of variables that would create....work for dominant position, choke, punch, gouge, poke eyes...whatever presents itself.

Kickboxing response, I'd slam out a hard kick at the rear leg...again, entirely depends on the millions of variables that could happen.  It's the same with anything for me when fighting....I don't think, just react or bait for a reaction.


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## dungeonworks (Jan 29, 2009)

Also, I don't know anything about Bagua so I wouldn't have a formulated plan, just response to stimuli and energy given at the moment.  I am new still to Wing Chun (by Wing Chun standards) and am not ready to use it if it doesn't come out as a reaction.

I cannot understand why you often ask about Wing Chun vs (Inster Art Here) when the focus of it isn't on "style vs style" so much as sticking to the principles and acting/reacting regardless???  I am taught it is not so much a techique based art but a principle based art to be used from Wing Chun structures....something to that effect.  That is how I understand it anyway.  Also, I still do not see what people mean when they claim Wing Chun was meant to be learned _*fast*_ because I have not seen anything learned fast at this point (1 year).  Don't read that as I don't think it works because I am not saying that...just that it is not learned fast as some claim.  Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, MMA/Grappling, and even Tae Kwon Do I learned relatively quick and was able to use it within months at a basic level.  Sensitivy, which Wing Chun is ultra heavy on is not learned quick for me.  I have sensitivity in the other arts I mentioned, but Wing Chun has it down to a curricular science and sylabus.  Sure, the movements in the forms are quickly memorized, but to the point of fighting using WC principles excusively and adeptly?  No.  I don't see where that comes quickly...not yet, unless there is an epiphany awaiting in my near future.  The hard work perfecting this is the addictive quality of this style for me.  It is incredibly deep and the fact that the forms (...or kata where I come from) have sooo much to do with the art and what is practiced outside of the forms is really good to see.  In Karate and TKD, the forms were hardly used for fighting application and were more "catalog" of techniques than utilitarian in their use.  From what I can see with WC, the forms are the foundation and everything to the style.  Karate and TKD technique could be learned without kata and likely why many see "kata" as useless.  I liked kata as a cool down or meditative tool, but the combinations of moves were out dated IMVHO.


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## Eru IlÃºvatar (Jan 29, 2009)

Great post! I agree with every single thing you said.


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## Yoshiyahu (Jan 29, 2009)

I don't know about karate katas. but I see some videos on youtube of karate master using moves from the kata...the katas contain chin na and arm breaks leg breaks. But most people who take TKD or Karate only really focus on the punches and the kicks. But not much else...Also Karate at upper levels deals with sensitivity but you don't start learning about flow,sensitivy and soft force until your black belt. With Wing Chun you start learning right away...

Why some say WC is fast to learn...Is because historically it only took three years to learn the entire system. Some schools still teach it that way...others make you wait years before going to next level. So some people teach the system slower than others...

As for fighting with WC...It depends. If you spar do you only attempt to use WC or do you fall back on other arts too??? If you spar all the time with friends using only WC you will suck at first...but after a couple of months many things will start opening up to you. Later on those things you start to realize will become accessible in fighting situtation after many hours of meditation and drilling. 



Some Teachers make you wait before fighting with WC. Some teachers only have you do chi sau and dan chi sau and drills but no free sparring???


It depends on the teacher. But if your already able to hold your own in a fight...you don't need the sifu to teach you so much how to fight with a new system. You just need learn applications and drill them. An when your on your own...Spar with others...When it gets warming I have to start meeting people in my area who train other arts too. I plan on spending alot time sparring this summer.

But as for WC...your fairly new...you only have the first form and maybe learning the second. I suggest practicing all the different blocks of Wing chun along with practicing all your punches and kicks in the air that you know. Then doing it over and over again will help open your mind up. 




dungeonworks said:


> Also, I don't know anything about Bagua so I wouldn't have a formulated plan, just response to stimuli and energy given at the moment. I am new still to Wing Chun (by Wing Chun standards) and am not ready to use it if it doesn't come out as a reaction.
> 
> I cannot understand why you often ask about Wing Chun vs (Inster Art Here) when the focus of it isn't on "style vs style" so much as sticking to the principles and acting/reacting regardless??? I am taught it is not so much a techique based art but a principle based art to be used from Wing Chun structures....something to that effect. That is how I understand it anyway. Also, I still do not see what people mean when they claim Wing Chun was meant to be learned _*fast*_ because I have not seen anything learned fast at this point (1 year). Don't read that as I don't think it works because I am not saying that...just that it is not learned fast as some claim. Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, MMA/Grappling, and even Tae Kwon Do I learned relatively quick and was able to use it within months at a basic level. Sensitivy, which Wing Chun is ultra heavy on is not learned quick for me. I have sensitivity in the other arts I mentioned, but Wing Chun has it down to a curricular science and sylabus. Sure, the movements in the forms are quickly memorized, but to the point of fighting using WC principles excusively and adeptly? No. I don't see where that comes quickly...not yet, unless there is an epiphany awaiting in my near future. The hard work perfecting this is the addictive quality of this style for me. It is incredibly deep and the fact that the forms (...or kata where I come from) have sooo much to do with the art and what is practiced outside of the forms is really good to see. In Karate and TKD, the forms were hardly used for fighting application and were more "catalog" of techniques than utilitarian in their use. From what I can see with WC, the forms are the foundation and everything to the style. Karate and TKD technique could be learned without kata and likely why many see "kata" as useless. I liked kata as a cool down or meditative tool, but the combinations of moves were out dated IMVHO.


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## mook jong man (Jan 29, 2009)

I have sparred a Bagua man with the strikes being pulled , which on reflection was a mistake . A friend brought him into the academy to see how he would go against me . 

The bloke was twice the size of me , he got set and I got set , I immediately stepped in with a Pak Sau and punch that would have splattered his nose across his face , he didn't react to it or acknowledge the strike because he didn't even see it .

 Then he went straight into his spinning around routine , I continued to chase after him sticking to him like glue , you could'nt really gain any arm contact because he was spinning around so much . He did move around a lot using most of the space we were in , everytime he turned I threw elbows at his back , and palm strikes and punches at his kidneys . 

After we finished he says , see that ,  I just struck you 3 times in the groin , he probably did , but what about in the first instance where my Pak Sau and punch probably would have knocked him out and the ten gazillion strikes I threw at his back and kidneys when he was turned away from me .

 I just smiled to myself and left it at that , because he was a friend of my mates . The whole thing was a waste of time really , if you are going to spar somebody from another style make sure they acknowledge your strikes . 

I know the Wing Chun hands are very fast and sometimes people don't see them , but I think the best way is to put on equipment and use semi contact so that they have to acknowledge that you have hit them , or they have hit you , otherwise it is just a waste of time .

 I have to say the next guy he brought in to have a go , a bouncer at one of the pubs in Sydney was a lot more sensible , he just threw a couple of hooks at me which I countered and punched him lightly in the chest , he'd say yep you got me there , yep you got me there and later on I taught him for a couple of lessons .

 I don't believe in hurting people to prove that your style is better than theirs , because if they have been training longer in their style they just might be better than you and everybody no matter who they are is susceptible to taking a hit .

 But if you are going to do it pad up and put some equipment on , acknowledge that you have been hit and learn from it and try not to kill each other . You want to be able to grow to be an old Wing Chun student with all your faculties not one who's punch drunk .


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## Si-Je (Jan 29, 2009)

Mook! Your naughty! lol! 
Sifu's my WC dummy on occasion, that's why I started that thread on "living, breathing, WC dummy." 
That's a great drill, especially when he's teaching me something new to do in chi sau or I'm having trouble with an application.  
My footwork is horrible, gotten so rusty.  Must start doing that all day around the house.  Then add the dai sau, to bong sau, to tan sau stuff he likes to have me do now. (we sneak in a dai sau right before bong sau to get more structure and forward force on the bong sau, and to make sure we get turned INTO bong sau and not just throw it out there to collapse.)  But, you knew that.  
Dai sau, the hidden move in Si Lim Tao....

But, I definately need to move more in my chi sau.  I'm too stationary.  Sifu says that I'm at where I'm supposed to be and just now getting to the level to step more, but, I'm the impatient one.  So much WC doesn't make sence to me the way it's taught.  They only train the beginnings of the actual motion you'll need to complete in the street.  (I know, I know, because your a beginner) But, I didn't understand what the hell I was doing until I got to the level where the forward motion was being completed. connect the dots.
So, I show the students the beginning technique that their learning, and then show them where their goal is to GO with it when then get their stance, kick, deflection, and chainpunching all into it at once.  That takes the confused looks off faces alot, and they drill more because now they have a GOAL.


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## Yoshiyahu (Feb 5, 2009)

I have actually be working on techniques with out the motions more. To be like immovable mountain. When I was beginner I was really good At just standing in one place an blocking on coming attacks from two the three guys with out get struck. Now I suck. I am so use to skill and movement I don't have the same skills as I did back then. I have been working on standing in one place an firing off techinques. Because sometimes In a fight you don't have any where to move forward to. Your like in bath room fighting or a stall. Forward pressure will get you no where. No room to do anything but trap,punch,deflect and shift. May be some C-Steps or small side steps but no real full front steps. I have been in situtations where you don't have real room to move. An you have to defend in YGKYM. Not good if your not use it.



So I think its beneficial to practice both. WC actually trains you to use one hand, Fight in the dark, Fight in the clinch(Inside), Fight with your back against the wall, Fight on knees and to fight in any given sitituation. I believe the techniques in static stance teach you how to defend and attack with out needing to move backwards or forwards. Which is a benefit. I believe this to be a Kung of Wing Chun!




Si-Je said:


> Mook! Your naughty! lol!
> Sifu's my WC dummy on occasion, that's why I started that thread on "living, breathing, WC dummy."
> That's a great drill, especially when he's teaching me something new to do in chi sau or I'm having trouble with an application.
> My footwork is horrible, gotten so rusty. Must start doing that all day around the house. Then add the dai sau, to bong sau, to tan sau stuff he likes to have me do now. (we sneak in a dai sau right before bong sau to get more structure and forward force on the bong sau, and to make sure we get turned INTO bong sau and not just throw it out there to collapse.) But, you knew that.
> ...


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