# Kama With Holes in The Blades



## PhotonGuy (Sep 25, 2018)

I've seen some high end kama that've got holes in the blade. Any reason why the high end versions have holes in the blade? Does it enhance the performance of the weapon in combat?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 25, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> I've seen some high end kama that've got holes in the blade. Any reason why the high end versions have holes in the blade? Does it enhance the performance of the weapon in combat?


I asked an old sensei, and was told that it has something to do with wind resistance. I dont even know how to use them though, so no clue if that's true. I would bet it's more for design than anything else, in reality.

Edit: According to the video in this article, its basically just that the holes make it lighter and therefore faster. Not sure if that's accurate, but it makes logical sense.Should My Kama Have Holes? (Exploring Form and Function)


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 26, 2018)

Because Americans think it looks cool.  We cant appreciate things for what they are. We need to "make them better".
It's a sickle.  You wouldn't want to make it lighter, heavier is better for the cut, unless your a circus performer twirling  these things around at supper sonic speed, to disco music....then you need them made of aluminum with holes.


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## Buka (Sep 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Because Americans think it looks cool.  We cant appreciate things for what they are. We need to "make them better".
> It's a sickle.  You wouldn't want to make it lighter, heavier is better for the cut, unless your a circus performer twirling  these things around at supper sonic speed, to disco music....then you need them made of aluminum with holes.


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## JR 137 (Sep 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Because Americans think it looks cool.  We cant appreciate things for what they are. We need to "make them better".
> It's a sickle.  You wouldn't want to make it lighter, heavier is better for the cut, unless your a circus performer twirling  these things around at supper sonic speed, to disco music....then you need them made of aluminum with holes.


Can I rate this as “I’m pretty sure you’re right?” I haven’t actually used them and therefore can’t say for certain.


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## frank raud (Sep 26, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Because Americans think it looks cool.  We cant appreciate things for what they are. We need to "make them better".
> It's a sickle.  You wouldn't want to make it lighter, heavier is better for the cut, unless your a circus performer twirling  these things around at supper sonic speed, to disco music....then you need them made of aluminum with holes.


Let's not forget the cool whistling sound they make, which makes it seems the blades are moving faster then they really are.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 26, 2018)

Because you're confused about what "high end" means, I would say. A "high end" weapon isn't going to be punched full of holes that do nothing other than make the blade weak.


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## Tony Dismukes (Sep 26, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because you're confused about what "high end" means, I would say. A "high end" weapon isn't going to be punched full of holes that do nothing other than make the blade weak.


I think he might mean high-end performance prop.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 26, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think he might mean high-end performance prop.



I see it as "expensive junk" personally.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 26, 2018)

You can buy real kama in some hardware and garden supply stores.  They are pretty easy to find in cities with a sizeable population of Japanese ancestry.

Ive used them in a gardening scenario.  Sharp as hell.  I would say though, they are not the most durable construction, meaning they might not hold together for long in a full-contact battlefield secenario, but then again they don’t need to be when used for their original purpose.  Do keep in mind that these were agricultural tools first that were then repurposed for a self defense use, which would likely subject them to all kinds of abuse that they were never designed to withstand.  Kind of like if I picked up a gardening rake and used it to fight off sword- and spear-wielding bandits.  It’s still a rake and that is still how I use it most of the time.

So think about that the next time you do, or watch, a fancy kata with all kinds of spins and hard blocks and crap...


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 26, 2018)

Reduction of weight is the only thing that jumps to mind.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 27, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Do keep in mind that these were agricultural tools first that were then repurposed for a self defense use, which would likely subject them to all kinds of abuse that they were never designed to withstand.


As are many of the weapons that are used in the Japanese martial arts.



Flying Crane said:


> Kind of like if I picked up a gardening rake and used it to fight off sword- and spear-wielding bandits.  It’s still a rake and that is still how I use it most of the time.


Just as the peasants did in medieval Europe, they fought with their rakes and pitchforks and other farming implements while the knights fought with their swords and lances.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Sep 27, 2018)

Just going to say, i would opt for a rake over a scythe, given european designs are not the best for actually fighting with and a rake is a pole with a bit of metal on it.   (scythes are angled meant to be used on wheat and other grains obviously)

How ever  there is a treatise which has scythe that could be used as  a weapon, but it was hardly a battlefield thing.  It was more niche for the nobles who had a interest in it and how to fight with it.    (not 100% it was a specific design or just a normal scythe but i lean towards special scythe)    So, i assume Japan could have their version.  A scythe made for fighting. 


Anyway, passing ramblings on what i have seen for a scythe.     ( i will if i remember look for the sources and post them here)


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## Flying Crane (Sep 27, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> As are many of the weapons that are used in the Japanese martial arts.
> 
> 
> Just as the peasants did in medieval Europe, they fought with their rakes and pitchforks and other farming implements while the knights fought with their swords and lances.


Somehow I get the feeling you missed my point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 27, 2018)

Rat said:


> Just going to say, i would opt for a rake over a scythe, given european designs are not the best for actually fighting with and a rake is a pole with a bit of metal on it.   (scythes are angled meant to be used on wheat and other grains obviously)
> 
> How ever  there is a treatise which has scythe that could be used as  a weapon, but it was hardly a battlefield thing.  It was more niche for the nobles who had a interest in it and how to fight with it.    (not 100% it was a specific design or just a normal scythe but i lean towards special scythe)    So, i assume Japan could have their version.  A scythe made for fighting.
> 
> ...


No clue which one I would prefer, since I don't honestly I would break them and use them as two short sticks. But, keep in mind that rakes from back then probably weren't made thick enough to withstand a whole bunch of hits. No need to worry about then when raking something.


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

Rat said:


> scythes are angled meant to be used on wheat and other grains obviously



Not that obviously, unless you've never handled one - or different types of scythe.

Some were built for reaping, but going at a field of grain with mine would be hard work - because it's more toward a grass scythe, designed for mowing.

What do you think was used to maintain bowling greens and lawns before the lawnmower was invented*?

The scythe.

Most people don't know how a scythe was designed to be used either - it's commonly assumed you cut a swathe the length of the blade (like say using a meat cleaver, or an axe), but that's utterly wrong. It's a slicing tool where you run along the blade, not into it (more like a carving knife, or slicing with a sword).

Someone well practiced in it's use would be able to use it very effectively in an offensive or defensive fashion.



(*As an aside the lawnmower wasn't invented to cut grass, it was repurposed from a machine designed for use in the textile industry...)


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> No clue which one I would prefer, since I don't honestly I would break them and use them as two short sticks. But, keep in mind that rakes from back then probably weren't made thick enough to withstand a whole bunch of hits. No need to worry about then when raking something.



From my experience, the older the rake the heavier and stronger it's built.

Before mass production, it took as much effort to build a light, weak rake as to build a strong one, and reputations were built on quality instead of price.

So, if you built something strong that lasted well you sold more, because tools weren't disposable like they are now.

These days you buy something cheap and replace it when it breaks - days gone by you bought something expecting it to last. That's why I still have tools my grandfather bought second hand between the wars...


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> It's a sickle. You wouldn't want to make it lighter, heavier is better for the cut



Depends - how are (were) they intended to be used and on what?

If like a pull hook / rip hook, where you tuck it behind something and pull through then you need structural strength which holes would detract from but more weight isn't required.

If more of a slicing scythe type action, rigidity is less of a concern, and more weight increases fatigue in use.

The only time weight becomes a real advantage is if it's used more like an axe to chop - but isn't the cutting edge facing inward?


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## hoshin1600 (Sep 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Depends - how are (were) they intended to be used and on what?
> 
> If like a pull hook / rip hook, where you tuck it behind something and pull through then you need structural strength which holes would detract from but more weight isn't required.
> 
> ...


Since I didn't grow up in 1890,s Okinawa I could be wrong but my thinking is that the kama was a hand tool used in the rice paddies to cut the stocks. This means a couple of things, you were knee deep in mud and bent over at the waist. Reaching down with one hand to gather and then use the other hand with the kama to cut the stocks. Very repetitive action with a short handle tool.  I believe the weight would be needed like a hammer as opposed to long blade grass cutters that are used standing upright where gravity can be harnessed with long strokes.
Short handle tools rely on the correct weight. Too little weight with high repetitive action means your using muscle rather than letting the tool do the work.

EDIT: 
well I need to correct myself.  I just watched Youtube on Asian rice. After watching the harvest, my initial thoughts were wrong. The paddies are dry at harvest and watching the use of the kama it is indeed a quick action. The hook blade is used to gather up a section, the left hand grabs the bunch and the blade is pulled into and across the stocks.  Initially I was thinking there would be more arm action but it's not. So the blade in actual use is very small and thin weight is not needed. The design i watched in use was a bit different then the Okinawan kama. The kama has a much wider blade.


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> So the blade in actual use is very small and thin weight is not needed. The design i watched in use was a bit different then the Okinawan kama. The kama has a much wider blade.



The wider blade allows it to be thinner and more efficient for slicing while retaining enough rigidity to not flop about.

Compare to an axe for chopping or an adze for digging - a smaller but thicker blade for strength and weight.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Somehow I get the feeling you missed my point.


So what is your point?


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

Actually, you know what might be fun?

Scythe kata 

Well, either 'fun' or 'how do I sew a foot back on?'...


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2018)

PhotonGuy said:


> So what is your point?


That these tools were not built to withstand heavy combat that the fancy and rigorous kata imply.

Yes, they can be useful self defense tools.  They are sharp implements after all. 

But the way people like to spin and get a bit crazy with them in a lot of the XMA Type performance kata for example, is so divorce from reality on the very fundamental level that the weapon isn’t even going to withstand that kind of encounter if used against a weapon-weilding opponent.

Realistic use is much calmer and looks for simple and straight-forward applications.  And no need to punch holes in the blade to lighten it up for even faster twirling and fancy nonsense, while weakening something that is already not terribly robust.

Also keep in mind that the sharp edge is facing down, which is where your fingers are when you grip the handle.  If you block an attack with the top of that blade, it could collapse down and drive that sharp edge right across your fingers.  Once again, it is an improvised tool used as a weapon and it has very real inherent weaknesses when used as a weapon.  Certain techniques could be useful, while others could be disastrous.


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## pgsmith (Sep 28, 2018)




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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Realistic use is much calmer and looks for simple and straight-forward applications.  And no need to punch holes in the blade to lighten it up for even faster twirling and fancy nonsense, while weakening something that is already not terribly robust.



If used in the way I imagine (and how was described earlier) there is actually a decent case for punching holes in the blade to decrease weight.

It's less likely that was commonly done historically though, not from a strength standpoint but from a speed and ease of manufacture one.

They look light enough already, so the gain from less weight would be far outweighed by the cost of added complexity.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> (*As an aside the lawnmower wasn't invented to cut grass, it was repurposed from a machine designed for use in the textile industry...)


Are you _trying_ to get me to waste my afternoon in useless research on the provenance of common household tools???


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Are you _trying_ to get me to waste my afternoon in useless research on the provenance of common household tools???



Yes.


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Are you _trying_ to get me to waste my afternoon in useless research on the provenance of common household tools???



Oh, and the same person who invented (or rather was inspired to develop) the lawn mower was also the person responsible for the adjustable spanner (credited along with another in the same year).


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> If used in the way I imagine (and how was described earlier) there is actually a decent case for punching holes in the blade to decrease weight.
> 
> It's less likely that was commonly done historically though, not from a strength standpoint but from a speed and ease of manufacture one.
> 
> They look light enough already, so the gain from less weight would be far outweighed by the cost of added complexity.


Well, the real one that I used in gardening would not have needed any weight reduction.  It just is not that heavy a weapon.  They are designed for cutting grasses and grains, not trees.  The blades are not thick like a hatchet.  It is a lightweight implement.


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, the real one that I used in gardening would not have needed any weight reduction.  It just is not that heavy a weapon.  They are designed for cutting grasses and grains, not trees.  The blades are not thick like a hatchet.  It is a lightweight implement.



Yes, that's what I meant - it's already light and not built for hitting stuff.

Used for that purpose holes wouldn't significantly weaken it.

But if you're using it all day, a couple of ounces can make a difference.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes, that's what I meant - it's already light and not built for hitting stuff.
> 
> Used for that purpose holes wouldn't significantly weaken it.
> 
> But if you're using it all day, a couple of ounces can make a difference.


Well, yes and no.  Given that they are already pretty light, I bet a farmer who was accustomed to hard work and used a kama and other heavier tools regularly would not notice any need to reduce the weight by a couple ounces.  For that fellow, it just would not matter, he probably barely notices the weight as it is.

For the Okinawan kobudoka, who is likely also a farmer, he can adopt the kama to martial use with little trouble, and it certainly is not too heavy for him.

For the fourteen year-old XMA proponent who does not engage in hard physical labor and does not work with his hands and does not have that hand and forearm and shoulder strength that comes from such labor, he might feel like it’s too heavy to be as fast and flashy as he wishes.  But his needs are artificial.  He is taking the kama out of its historical context and turning it into performance art and entertainment, likely divorced from any real martial application, never mind it’s agricultural origins.  He is not interested in martial application.  He simply wants to do some tricking and the kama is little more than a martially inspired prop.

In a completely artificial scenario like that, well yes, a couple ounces matter.  And since the kama will never actually hit or strike or cut a real target, any compromise in the strength of the blade is irrelevant.

As a farming tool, it works by hooking the grain inside the curved blade and giving it a pull, while you grip the grain above with your other hand.  If kept sharp, it cuts quite well that way. Hook and pull, that is how you cut with it.  It is not designed to strike with the point of the blade, nor to take blocks or other heavy contact across the top or side of the blade.  Those kinds of actions will likely damage its seating in the handle and cause it to come apart.  Take a look at the kama kata that do not come from Okinawan or Japanese kobudo.  How many techniques in those kata look like strikes with the point or blocks on the back of the blade, even if done as a “X” block with two kama?  I think it’s a lot, and it shows a lack of understanding of the tool as a weapon.  And this is not just the XMA stuff, it’s other methods or schools that adopted the weapon because they wanted a weapon curriculum, without getting quality instruction.

Take a look at proper Okinawan or Japanese kobudo.  You see techniques that are clearly “hook and pull” movements.  You see striking and blocking techniques that are done with the butt or shaft of the handle and not the blade.  That is what makes sense, given the design and construction of the implement.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2018)

pgsmith said:


>


Lots of “hook and pull” cutting movements.  Lots of strikes and blocks with the butt or shaft of the handle.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2018)

pdg said:


> Yes.


You know, there's a "dislike" button and a "helpful" button. There's no "unhelpful" button...


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## pdg (Sep 28, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You know, there's a "dislike" button and a "helpful" button. There's no "unhelpful" button...



Piffle.

Without me you wouldn't have access to that exceedingly interesting and useful piece of information that you can now pull out at dinner parties to wow all the other guests with your seemingly encyclopaedic knowledge.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2018)

pdg said:


> Piffle.
> 
> Without me you wouldn't have access to that exceedingly interesting and useful piece of information that you can now pull out at dinner parties to wow all the other guests with your seemingly encyclopaedic knowledge.


I already have a excessive amount of non-informative tripe stashed in my brain for such occasions. Attempting to add more is just gilding the lily.


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