# Qi/Chi masters: why, when we talk about real fight, QI is useless?



## androz

Hi everybody.

I have an unconfortable question.
Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam 

I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question

thx


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## jobo

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx


well,,,,  tc it not now often viewed as a fighting art, at least not outside china,probable not much in, rather as moving meditation  with numerous health benifits,
why would it loose to mma or mt, for the same reason that most other tradtional arts would, they are just better


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## androz

jobo said:


> well,,,,  tc it not now often viewed as a fighting art, at least not outside china,probable not much in, rather as moving meditation  with numerous health benifits,
> why would it loose to mma or mt, for the same reason that most other tradtional arts would, they are just better



That is my opinion too.
If we speak about moving meditation i totally agree.

But i heard lot of ppl into chinese traditional arts bragging about "true masters" that could beat the hell out of MMA or MT due to a superior mastership of CHI/QI


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## jobo

androz said:


> That is my opinion too.
> If we speak about moving meditation i totally agree.
> 
> But i heard lot of ppl into chinese traditional arts bragging about "true masters" that could beat the hell out of MMA or MT due to a superior mastership of CHI/QI


im not dismising someone who is athletic and train tc as a fighting art beibg more than capable of being able to put up a robust defence against most people

its starts to come unstuck when you belive chi gives you super human strengh and your going up against a pro level fighter


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## Buka

Welcome to Martial Talk, Androz. Hope you enjoy it.


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## Ivan

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx


I mean if you're training a martial art that solely focuses on Qi or internal strength then of course it will fail - assuming such thing even exists. You can't expect to physically overpower someone using techniques that only train your inner presence and image. Personally I believe it exists. I've made forum posts about it and researched the concept for a certain dissertation I also posted about. From what I have understood it is supposed to be a life force that ebbs and flows through everyone and everything. But regardless of whether it's real or not - the form you see in the *Bullshido *certainly doesn't. There will never be a martial art that can shoot waves of *The Force.

*


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## androz

Buka said:


> Welcome to Martial Talk, Androz. Hope you enjoy it.



thx buka


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## androz

jobo said:


> im not dismising someone who is athletic and train tc as a fighting art beibg more than capable of being able to put up a robust defence against most people
> 
> its starts to come unstuck when you belive chi gives you super human strengh and your going up against a pro level fighter



Well, my opinion is that, even with equal atlethic level, chinese traditional arts have somehow less effectiveness.

But my main point here is that CHI seems to add nothing to the skills,  except maybe mastering correct respiration and an unperturbed mind.

I guess Xu Xiaodong is doing a great demistification job, and for that is heavily ostracised by chinese government.
And keep in mind that Xu Xiaodong consider himself a "mediocre" MMA fighter


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## androz

Ivan said:


> I mean if you're training a martial art that solely focuses on Qi or internal strength then of course it will fail - assuming such thing even exists. You can't expect to physically overpower someone using techniques that only train your inner presence and image. Personally I believe it exists. I've made forum posts about it and researched the concept for a certain dissertation I also posted about. From what I have understood it is supposed to be a life force that ebbs and flows through everyone and everything. But regardless of whether it's real or not - the form you see in the *Bullshido *certainly doesn't. There will never be a martial art that can shoot waves of *The Force.
> *



Well, imaho is a metaphysical concept that cannot be disproven, but scientifically not proven.


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## EdwardA

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx



I have to wonder what you think qi/chi is?  What do you think it does for you?


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## androz

EdwardA said:


> I have to wonder what you think qi/chi is?  What do you think it does for you?



i'm interested in martial application of QI
I was told QI is an internal force that enhance your performance in more ways if you master it

I would like to know if and how it improves your martial skills


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## EdwardA

androz said:


> I was told QI is an internal force that enhance your performance in more ways if you master it
> 
> I would like to know if and how it improves your martial skills



Qi isn't a mistical force.  It's a natural one.... where what you have to use is operating up to it's potential.

I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys you can't move out of their structure, short of injuring them (if you could get to them).  It's a subtle thing that I would say involves practicing some basics beyond the point of monotney, *to a place that's not*.  They can be advanced structures, regardless, you have to train and consider them to a different level of understanding than most people are willing to.  Some of it is engrainig structural movement into muscle memory, but there a lot more to it.  It is natural, but takes extreme dedication.

I'm not sure how else I can describe it's delelopment...in words.

I will add, there are some breathing exercises that are important to this development.


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## EdwardA

Center of gravity, stance, posture, et.al...structure, all those thing have to be working in unison, and correctly.


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## Ivan

androz said:


> Well, imaho is a metaphysical concept that cannot be disproven, but scientifically not proven.


Yes, the term is pseudoscientific. I talked about it a bit in some of the research I did, if you would like me to link it?


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## mograph

Well, qi as a *concept* is context-dependent.

TCM types use the *concept* to describe both general and specific physical functioning. The *concept* is a tool, sort of a metaphor.
martial types who know what they're doing use the *concept* in contrast to li, muscular force. It is a *concept* that describes *unified, distributed force* through as much of the body (muscles, bones, tendons) as possible, rather than through specific muscles such as the triceps. This idea of unity and big-picture is woven into the Chinese (and other Far Eastern) culture, while Western culture has emphasized drilling down into components.
when they talk about moving qi around, they're not talking about some kind of _thing_ moving; they're talking about your mental _intention_ (yi) and internal _awareness_ moving through your body, and if you are practiced enough, this subtle intention can result in slightly increased body functions (e.g. increased circulation) along the way. If you doubt the effects of such movement, think about how signals travel from your brain to your bicep to lift a weight.
qi as a *concept* also describes information within the body. It's not numbers or words: those are systems of symbols we've made up. No, the body passes information all the time from your brain to your organs, between your muscles and tendons, telling other components to send more white corpuscles, to pump more blood, whatever. The systems in your body are not isolated: ****'s moving around all the time, and qi is a concept that describes that movement.
along those lines, this is why some describe the *concept* of qi as a wave. In a water wave, while the wave seems to move across to our eye, the water just goes up and down if we look carefully. In the sense of qi, something happens at one point in the body and a signal, electrical or chemical happens. That triggers the same thing to happen in an adjacent cell (or whatever), and so on. Nothing actually _moves_, but this on/off is transferred along a path in the same way that the up/down of a wave occurs. In a metaphorical sense, qi "moves" like a wave "moves."
In a Chinese context, qi is not a thing. It's not measured. It's not electricity. It can't make you do magic. 
Chinese types who know what they're doing know that the magical stuff is BS, but they are hesitant to call out the charlatans. Yes, "face" is real. They also don't spell out what I'm saying because from their point of view, it might be patronizing to the Western folk: of course it's a concept, a metaphor. They're trying to save _our_ face. It would be like our meeting a client who thinks that Sherlock Holmes is a real man. What would we say to him?

It's a useful *concept* to describe complex stuff.

It _manifests_ in measurable phenomena such as increased blood circulation, muscular activity, body heat, but in a TCM context, qi is a *concept* that attempts to describe an aggregate of these bodily functions. 

In a martial context, it refers to the distributed use of the body components in the application of force or techniques: if you are "using your qi," you have distributed your effort through so many body components, and you cannot easily name which muscles you use to execute a technique. It feels nearly effortless because the effort is distributed through your entire body. Lift a weight with one arm; lift it with two arms, and it weighs half. Extrapolate this concept to shoving someone using only your triceps, then using your entire body. That's "using your qi." Again ignore the charlatans.

I hope that helps.


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## _Simon_

mograph said:


> Well, qi as a *concept* is context-dependent.
> 
> TCM types use the *concept* to describe both general and specific physical functioning. The *concept* is a tool, sort of a metaphor.
> martial types who know what they're doing use the *concept* in contrast to li, muscular force. It is a *concept* that describes *unified, distributed force* through as much of the body (muscles, bones, tendons) as possible, rather than through specific muscles such as the triceps. This idea of unity and big-picture is woven into the Chinese (and other Far Eastern) culture, while Western culture has emphasized drilling down into components.
> when they talk about moving qi around, they're not talking about some kind of _thing_ moving; they're talking about your mental _intention_ (yi) and internal _awareness_ moving through your body, and if you are practiced enough, this subtle intention can result in slightly increased body functions (e.g. increased circulation) along the way. If you doubt the effects of such movement, think about how signals travel from your brain to your bicep to lift a weight.
> qi as a *concept* also describes information within the body. It's not numbers or words: those are systems of symbols we've made up. No, the body passes information all the time from your brain to your organs, between your muscles and tendons, telling other components to send more white corpuscles, to pump more blood, whatever. The systems in your body are not isolated: ****'s moving around all the time, and qi is a concept that describes that movement.
> along those lines, this is why some describe the *concept* of qi as a wave. In a water wave, while the wave seems to move across to our eye, the water just goes up and down if we look carefully. In the sense of qi, something happens at one point in the body and a signal, electrical or chemical happens. That triggers the same thing to happen in an adjacent cell (or whatever), and so on. Nothing actually _moves_, but this on/off is transferred along a path in the same way that the up/down of a wave occurs. In a metaphorical sense, qi "moves" like a wave "moves."
> In a Chinese context, qi is not a thing. It's not measured. It's not electricity. It can't make you do magic.
> Chinese types who know what they're doing know that the magical stuff is BS, but they are hesitant to call out the charlatans. Yes, "face" is real. They also don't spell out what I'm saying because from their point of view, it might be patronizing to the Western folk: of course it's a concept, a metaphor. They're trying to save _our_ face. It would be like our meeting a client who thinks that Sherlock Holmes is a real man. What would we say to him?
> 
> It's a useful *concept* to describe complex stuff.
> 
> It _manifests_ in measurable phenomena such as increased blood circulation, muscular activity, body heat, but in a TCM context, qi is a *concept* that attempts to describe an aggregate of these bodily functions.
> 
> In a martial context, it refers to the distributed use of the body components in the application of force or techniques: if you are "using your qi," you have distributed your effort through so many body components, and you cannot easily name which muscles you use to execute a technique. It feels nearly effortless because the effort is distributed through your entire body. Lift a weight with one arm; lift it with two arms, and it weighs half. Extrapolate this concept to shoving someone using only your triceps, then using your entire body. That's "using your qi." Again ignore the charlatans.
> 
> I hope that helps.


Thanks heaps for that info @mograph , that's incredibly helpful 

Sent from my SM-A520F using Tapatalk


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## mograph

I guess I'd better address the question:

Along the lines of EdwardA's answer, the concept of qi is not useless, as it's *the use of unified body components and mechanics in such a way that it difficult to analyze using isolation of specific components.* However, it's the kind of thing that experts "get" through experience. They just _know_ what the other guy's doing. Not only is it difficult to analyze or counter, it is efficient, intuitive, and fast.

We see this in other disciplines. When an individual achieves high skill, it becomes more intuitive to them, more _implicit_. 

Here's a tip if you want to mess up a skilled practitioner who acts at an implicit level. Compliment them on a very specific technique, component, or action. You will be planting the suggestion that they revisit their practice at a point when it was explicit; when they were still learning the technique explicitly, and there's a chance they'll temporarily go back to that point, and waver a bit. Sometimes this works, depending on how the person responds to what you say. That's why I said you should try complimenting them: their guard might be down if you are friendly. Of course, it depends on the person and the context: a compliment between rounds of a bout would be out of place.


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## mograph

_Simon_ said:


> Thanks heaps for that info @mograph , that's incredibly helpful



Thanks!


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## EdwardA

mograph said:


> I guess I'd better address the question:
> 
> Along the lines of EdwardA's answer, the concept of qi is not useless, as it's *the use of unified body components and mechanics in such a way that it difficult to analyze using isolation of specific components.* However, it's the kind of thing that experts "get" through experience. They just _know_ what the other guy's doing. Not only is it difficult to analyze or counter, it is efficient, intuitive, and fast.
> 
> We see this in other disciplines. When an individual achieves high skill, it becomes more intuitive to them, more _implicit_.
> 
> Here's a tip if you want to mess up a skilled practitioner who acts at an implicit level. Compliment them on a very specific technique, component, or action. You will be planting the suggestion that they revisit their practice at a point when it was explicit; when they were still learning the technique explicitly, and there's a chance they'll temporarily go back to that point, and waver a bit. Sometimes this works, depending on how the person responds to what you say. That's why I said you should try complimenting them: their guard might be down if you are friendly. Of course, it depends on the person and the context: a compliment between rounds of a bout would be out of place.



Being that from the beginning of my training, it was only for situations where there are no rules but to survive...well, and that's not something I ever tried to do on purpose, I mentioned an entrance into a state within repetition where you are beyond movement, but into a zone.  Yes the structure has to be unified.

Like some long distance runners.  They are not paying attention to running, but instead are just breathing... they're in a different state of mind.  I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys that over time are no longer doing 108 moves, but are a moving presence of structure and energy.  I realize this is a bit obscure, but I think it's important to understand that there IS a mental process that helps achieve this result.

When I train on my heavy-bag, yes I use structure patterns that I've developed over years of training and combat experience (and within the structure I learned from basics and Tai Chi), but because I've done it for a long time, I'm not there(?).  I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved.  Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.


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## mograph

EdwardA said:


> I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved.  Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.



Something that's vague or difficult to describe in words isn't always nonexistent. 
It sounds as if you're on a good path.


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## EdwardA

mograph said:


> Something that's vague or difficult to describe in words isn't always nonexistent.
> It sounds as if you're on a good path.



In other words, it's worked.  On the occasions I've had to fight, I just breath and my body knows what to do without me being consciously envolved.  My vision goes dark and i don't even know what I did until later.  I only see glimpses of what I did.

This is something I've seen very little, or no conversation about.  It's something extremely important to me.  It's something I found a long time ago.  But I started in 1969, so i had plenty of time to develope it.  My instuctor understood, is it no longer?


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## mograph

EdwardA said:


> This is something I've seen very little, or no conversation about.  It's something extremely important to me.  It's something I found a long time ago.  But I started in 1969, so i had plenty of time to develope it.  My instuctor understood, is it no longer?



It's a hard thing to describe, especially to English-speakers. We want to know how something works, what the process is, what the mechanism is. That's an algorithmic step-by-step way of seeing it, which just doesn't get us there. This is why the old guys tell us to "be quiet and practice," so that we discover it by doing it, where we eventually make a breakthrough that seems to come from nowhere. But it comes from dedicated practice, from the unconscious or the implicit: outside our normal conscious thought. (I have a Psych degree, by the way.)

I studied the phenomenon of insight (Eureka!) for a while, and one way to see it is as a back-and-forth practice of looking deeply, and stepping back. Of seeing the small picture, and the big picture. Of the left brain and the right brain. We western types focus on the left brain too much if we can't analyze something, it doesn't exist to us. If you want a heavy read on that left-right brain thing, look up Iain McGilchrist's _The Master and His Emissary_. I think he has an RSA video along those lines.

Anyway, the people who have looked into it a bit more deeply are the Yiquan folks. Their practice is based heavily on Zhan Zhuang, but it's applicable to all forms. It's like conditioning for martial arts, and I think it's all about what you're looking for.

Where can you study Yiquan? Hoo boy, it's rare, mostly because to a lot of people, it's friggin' boring! Who wants to just stand there? But if you want an introduction, try this: https://www.amazon.com/Yiquan-Beginners-Guide-Basic-Skills/dp/1257161199 . You might be able to find it as a PDF out there.


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## EdwardA

mograph said:


> It's a hard thing to describe, especially to English-speakers. We want to know how something works, what the process is, what the mechanism is. That's an algorithmic step-by-step way of seeing it, which just doesn't get us there. This is why the old guys tell us to "be quiet and practice," so that we discover it by doing it, where we eventually make a breakthrough that seems to come from nowhere. But it comes from dedicated practice, from the unconscious or the implicit: outside our normal conscious thought. (I have a Psych degree, by the way.)
> 
> I studied the phenomenon of insight (Eureka!) for a while, and one way to see it is as a back-and-forth practice of looking deeply, and stepping back. Of seeing the small picture, and the big picture. Of the left brain and the right brain. We western types focus on the left brain too much if we can't analyze something, it doesn't exist to us. If you want a heavy read on that left-right brain thing, look up Iain McGilchrist's _The Master and His Emissary_. I think he has an RSA video along those lines.
> 
> Anyway, the people who have looked into it a bit more deeply are the Yiquan folks. Their practice is based heavily on Zhan Zhuang, but it's applicable to all forms. It's like conditioning for martial arts, and I think it's all about what you're looking for.
> 
> Where can you study Yiquan? Hoo boy, it's rare, mostly because to a lot of people, it's friggin' boring! Who wants to just stand there? But if you want an introduction, try this: https://www.amazon.com/Yiquan-Beginners-Guide-Basic-Skills/dp/1257161199 . You might be able to find it as a PDF out there.



Thank you.  I appreciate your input and technical understanding.  However, I'm not trying to find more about how to progress.  I'm completely satisfied with the techniques I use to develope myself.  Maybe even satisfied that I figured it out myself, thru my own study and observational capacity.  What I am looking for is some other people who understand what I'm talking about.  At least a few.  I am though, careful about that because I have in the past, run across some that use, or want to use it in very negative ways.  Something I had to wrestle with myself.

I will research the terms you posted.

Oh, I've seen these...never learned the Chinese names.  My instructor never used his Chinese... almost like it was insulting to him.  I practice many of the same structure and concepts.  Though I stay close to the upright form of Tai Chi...and the fixed, bent elbow positition.  Not entirely, but mostly.

In my blog (on this site) you can see a heavy-bag pattern I've practiced for decades.  I haven't done extensive videos, just a few basic ones.


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## _Simon_

EdwardA said:


> Being that from the beginning of my training, it was only for situations where there are no rules but to survive...well, and that's not something I ever tried to do on purpose, I mentioned an entrance into a state within repetition where you are beyond movement, but into a zone.  Yes the structure has to be unified.
> 
> Like some long distance runners.  They are not paying attention to running, but instead are just breathing... they're in a different state of mind.  I've seen a couple Tai Chi guys that over time are no longer doing 108 moves, but are a moving presence of structure and energy.  I realize this is a bit obscure, but I think it's important to understand that there IS a mental process that helps achieve this result.
> 
> When I train on my heavy-bag, yes I use structure patterns that I've developed over years of training and combat experience (and within the structure I learned from basics and Tai Chi), but because I've done it for a long time, I'm not there(?).  I'm in a place where I'm practicing a state of mind where my potential is more directly envolved.  Is that a bit vague? Maybe, but I'm developing something that needs to work when I'm not trying to think...which is when I need it the most.



Makes perfect sense to me EdwardA.

And apologies all for posting in an internal CMA thread, I'm a karate guy with zero CMA experience, but the subject is of great interest, and it's something I've been exploring with an instructor.

I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.

And yeah like you said about mental process, it's as though the awareness and intention you hold can support that naturalness and ease. I like to think of it as an inner posturing that reflects in the outer posturing.


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## EdwardA

_Simon_ said:


> Makes perfect sense to me EdwardA.
> I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.
> 
> And yeah like you said about mental process, it's as though the awareness and intention you hold can support that naturalness and ease. I like to think of it as an inner posturing that reflects in the outer posturing.



I'm glad you mentioned "time'.  One of the first ways I found an entrance into practicing this, was to use visualization to remove what was between point A and point B.  In other words, regarding a punch, for instance.  Point A being the starting point where you make that decision to move, and point B being where the contact point of where the punch was.  I used visualizations, or the reverse to remove in my mind what was between the two.  At first, my interest was increasing my speed, but it got into a whole 'nother way of manipulating my mind.  For lack of a better reference, I called it blink movement....even tho my eyes were fully open, I lost site of the time and vision in between the two.  I had two other entry points into this sort of thing earlier, which maybe we'll discuss after I hear thoughts on what I just mentioned.  Haha, one at a time.


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## EdwardA

I also have to mention this training envolves some risk.  When delving deeply into your conciousnes you've got to be at peace with all of your experiences.  One way or another you'll uncover any issues or conflict remaining in your personality.  Even from childhood....or anywhere else.


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## EdwardA

I'm mostly referring to anger issues.  If you haven't gotten rid of it...this training will send you down a destructive path.  It doesn't work very well projecting or using anger anyway.  Just makes it worse.


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## Xue Sheng

I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.

You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.
> 
> You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses



I would tend to agree, but in the 70s-80s, or even currently, finding anything about this type training is difficult.  That's why I'm bringing it up.

In the 7th year of my training I realized my instructor was trying to lead me down a dark path for his own purposes.  I refused to be further manipulated in that direction and he threw me out of his school... violently.

When I came home, I had to figure out the issue and correct it.  I did, but it was difficult and took time, but I never ran across anybody that knew about this topic.  We've only had the research tool of the internet for a short time.


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## _Simon_

EdwardA said:


> I'm glad you mentioned "time'.  One of the first ways I found an entrance into practicing this, was to use visualization to remove what was between point A and point B.  In other words, regarding a punch, for instance.  Point A being the starting point where you make that decision to move, and point B being where the contact point of where the punch was.  I used visualizations, or the reverse to remove in my mind what was between the two.  At first, my interest was increasing my speed, but it got into a whole 'nother way of manipulating my mind.  For lack of a better reference, I called it blink movement....even tho my eyes were fully open, I lost site of the time and vision in between the two.  I had two other entry points into this sort of thing earlier, which maybe we'll discuss after I hear thoughts on what I just mentioned.  Haha, one at a time.



That's really cool, I like that 

Sometimes rigorous repetition can facilitate that sort of deep connection (with intention of course): all the mental resistances and limitations come up and when you get past them things really come alive.. sinking into the expression of the technique, and finding that there's a particular essence that's expressed through each technique.

Even though the amazing thing is, every single technique is different, you will never ever do the exact same technique! But the underlying thread and principle of it is what drives its unique expression in the moment. Don't know if that makes sense haha.



EdwardA said:


> I also have to mention this training envolves some risk.  When delving deeply into your conciousnes you've got to be at peace with all of your experiences.  One way or another you'll uncover any issues or conflict remaining in your personality.  Even from childhood....or anywhere else.



Yes absolutely... meditation/contemplative practices I've been involved in for many years, it's unreal what can be unsurfaced... the more little steps taken the more stability within yourself you gain, but the bigger challenges that crop up haha


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## _Simon_

Xue Sheng said:


> I feel at this point I need to interject, training any sort of deeper qigong, without a teacher, can be a bit dangerous.
> 
> You may want to look into Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses


Good point! Yeah definitely worth noting. And to back off and re-ground yourself if things get a bit much... some sort of anchor to ground you


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## EdwardA

_Simon_ said:


> Good point! Yeah definitely worth noting. And to back off and re-ground yourself if things get a bit much... some sort of anchor to ground you



Fortunately for me, the outside training I took on myself....in the Tung style Taiji, helped me understand the true nature of natural structure.  Anger deeply effects intention, bringing the wrong results.  That was something I was able to see. Anything negative simply doesn't work. The Taiji helped me understand.

If you hold any anger or other negative forces, they cause you to dwell on negative things and that disrupts the natural flow of potential.  In a major way.  It's a disruption that causes big problems.

What I learned...if you hold anger, you're offended by a lot of things.  When you're offended, that dwells in your mind and stops the natural flow.  You have to let go of that so your potential can be realized.

I may be harping on this, but because I also had to deal with generational family violence...and successful fixed it, I had to learn some very basic things about how things work.


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## Xue Sheng

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx



I tend to stay out of these types of conversations online these days because I do not want to deal with the ridiculous that pope up around them. 

First questions: how are you defining Qi, and how are you talking about its use?

Note: Best description of Qi I have ever heard comes from a TCM Doctor who graduated from Beijing University of TCM
Strong Qi you're healthy
Weak Qi you're sick
No Qi you're dead


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> I tend to stay out of these types of conversations online these days because I do not want to deal with the ridiculous that pope up around them.
> 
> First questions: how are you defining Qi, and how are you talking about its use?
> 
> Note: Best description of Qi I have ever heard comes from a TCM Doctor who graduated from Beijing University of TCM
> Strong Qi you're healthy
> Weak Qi you're sick
> No Qi you're dead



I keep it simple.  I define Qi as natural potential.  In the details of how it works, it gets complex, but it's a natural process.  In order for you to use a lot of your natural potential, things have to be structured and lined up correctly.  If they aren't, you can't use much of your potential.


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I would tend to agree, but in the 70s-80s, or even currently, finding anything about this type training is difficult.  That's why I'm bringing it up.
> 
> In the 7th year of my training I realized my instructor was trying to lead me down a dark path for his own purposes.  I refused to be further manipulated in that direction and he threw me out of his school... violently.
> 
> When I came home, I had to figure out the issue and correct it.  I did, but it was difficult and took time, but I never ran across anybody that knew about this topic.  We've only had the research tool of the internet for a short time.



You really need to understand this

The Chinese Society of Psychiatry calls it "qigong deviation", the American Psychiatric Association uses psychosis terminology. So you have 走火入魔 _zǒuhuǒrùmó_ or qigong deviation and the western la el is Qigong-induced psychoses' aka 'Qigong-precipitated psychoses.

走火入魔 _zǒuhuǒrùmó_



> The term has traditionally been applied to indicate that something has gone wrong in one's martial arts training, interpreted as "imbalance of qi (life energy)".
> 
> In more recent history, the term has been applied to refer to undesirable somatic or psychological effects experienced during or after the practice of the broad range of Chinese self-cultivation exercises known as qigong





> *Symptoms*
> Symptoms are often identified as being in one of three categories:
> 
> 
> panic, discomfort, and uncontrolled spontaneous movement;
> sensory problems, such as visual or auditory hallucination; and
> irrational beliefs.
> Somatic symptoms can include sensations and pain in head, chest and back, abdomen, limbs, or whole body; whereas, mental and emotional symptoms can include neurasthenia, affective disorder, self-consciousness, hallucination, and paranoia





> *Qigong community perspective*
> Within the qigong community, Zou huo ru mo is believed to be caused by improper practice:[21]
> 
> Inexperienced or unqualified instructor
> Incorrect instructions
> Impatience
> Becoming frightened, irritated, confused, or suspicious during the course of qigong practice
> Inappropriate focus, interpreted as "inappropriate channeling of qi (life energy)."


DSM-IV calls it a Qigong Psychotic Reaction



> *DSM-IV*
> A term describing an acute, time-limited episode characterized by dissociative, paranoid, or other psychotic or nonpsychotic symptoms that may occur after participating in the Chinese folk health-enhancing practice of qi-gong ("exercise of vital energy"). Especially vulnerable are individuals who become overly involved in the practice. This diagnosis is included in the _Chinese Classification of Mental Disorders_, Second Edition (CCMD-2).



Train silk reeling, train Baduanjin, train any number of qigong forms on your own with little or no training, your might not get it right, but you will be OK. They are referring to the "deeper" form, although my wife had a classmate in college, who was a bigtime Baguazhang guy, who she was convinced was suffering from zǒuhuǒrùmó. I was once training a form of Qigong that I only knew as some type of Tibetan Qigong. I was working with a teacher, but I only saw him once every couple months. It upset my wife to the point where I had to quit. She would not have minded if the teacher was closer and I saw him more often, but once every couple months was not enough, she was concerned about zǒuhuǒrùmó. 

But if you are simply talking for martial arts applications (not projecting Qi, which I believe is fake, as does Beijing University of TCM and a lot of old school CMA guys I have known) it is simple relaxed, body (or musculature) unity. And there are a lot of men and women, outside of an internal martial art setting that have that. I had a Sanda (police version) sifu who had it, but went way out of his way to describe it as anything but qi.


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I keep it simple.  I define Qi as natural potential.  In the details of how it works, it gets complex, but it's a natural process.  In order for you to use a lot of your natural potential, things have to be structured and lined up correctly.  If they aren't, you can't use much of your potential.



Relaxed musculature with body unity and you also get into stuff Bruce Lee talked about in his book

Chinese Gung Fu : The Philosophic Art of Self Defense

Muscle fibers. Meaning what we use to move and what we can potentially use to move. Do Dumbbell curls every day, the same number at the same weight. In the beginning there are gains, but eventually you will gain no more because your body hs figured out what it needs to move they weight, and it does not work to its full potential.


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> Relaxed musculature with body unity and you also get into stuff Bruce Lee talked about in his book
> 
> Chinese Gung Fu : The Philosophic Art of Self Defense
> 
> Muscle fibers. Meaning what we use to move and what we can potentially use to move. Do Dumbbell curls every day, the same number at the same weight. In the beginning there are gains, but eventually you will gain no more because your body hs figured out what it needs to move they weight, and it does not work to its full potential.




I don't use weights.  Mostly because you can't take them around with you.  A long time ago I came to the conclusion I had to train everywhere I went...thru the whole day.  Can't take weights around with you.  Even when I was homeless, I still trained all the time.  I apply the training into everything I do.


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I don't use weights.  Mostly because you can't take them around with you.  A long time ago I came to the conclusion I had to train everywhere I went...thru the whole day.  Can't take weights around with you.



Not talking about using weights, it was an example to explain the concept of how muscle fibers work as it applies to what it sounds like you are talking about. Same can be done with regular MA training

From what I am reading here, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting your posts, it sounds as if you are approaching this as it is some sort of magical/mystical power, and it isn't. It is not that complicated.


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> Not talking about using weights, it was an example to explain the concept of how muscle fibers work as it applies to what it sounds like you are talking about. Same can be done with regular MA training
> 
> From what I am reading here, and I apologize if I am misinterpreting your posts, it sounds as if you are approaching this as it is some sort of magical/mystical power, and it isn't. It is not that complicated.



I'm not sure why you're seeing it that way... maybe because you've seen it discussed that way.  It is nothing but natural potential.


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## EdwardA

I'll add, it may seem different to you.  I was led off in the wrong direction from family violence, and by an instructor that wanted to use and develop my destructive force for his own purposes.  Not everybody gets the positive training that's correct.  I had to fix that in myself.  So I had to understand some extemely basic structures of how the mind works.  Might seem mystical to some, but it's not.

If you have deep-seated anger, you are offended by practically everything.  What's mystical about that?  I see it all over our society these days.  I had to figure out how to fix that in myself.  There's nothing mystical about that either.  I figured it out and found peace.  That's a natural process, and because I did that I learned how every aspect of that works.  The training forced me to deal with it and I did.


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## mograph

My teacher's philosophy on qigong was based on zhan zhuang practice: stand, avoid interfering, and let the body do what it needs to do.


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## mograph

_Simon_ said:


> I've certainly experienced that zone you speak of, as though time falls away and the whole universe is working to support your technique effortlessly haha. Like a presence and flow that comes when you let go of internal resistance fully, and are deeply connected with the moment.



Have you read Csikszentmihalyi's _Flow_?
Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi - Wikipedia

(pronounced "cheeks sent me high")


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I'm not sure why you're seeing it that way... maybe because you've seen it discussed that way.  It is nothing but natural potential.



You are missing the point, it was an example to clarify, that is all. It is natural potential, but we all go on autopilot and our body only uses what it feels is necessary at the time. Proper training of the "internal" will get you to use the body in a more efficient way and to use more of it, especially when you are talking muscles and he fibers they are made up of


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I'll add, it may seem different to you.  I was led off in the wrong direction from family violence, and by an instructor that wanted to use and develop my destructive force for his own purposes.  Not everybody gets the positive training that's correct.  I had to fix that in myself.  So I had to understand some extemely basic structures of how the mind works.  Might seem mystical to some, but it's not.
> 
> If you have deep-seated anger, you are offended by practically everything.  What's mystical about that?  I see it all over our society these days.  I had to figure out how to fix that in myself.  There's nothing mystical about that either.  I figured it out and found peace.  That's a natural process, and because I did that I learned how every aspect of that works.  The training forced me to deal with it and I did.



Somewhere in this thread the terms projection and dark were used, that is where I got it, and I also said, if I'm wrong, I apologize. It is easy to misinterpret during a web discussion. And you are talking to someone who dealt with a lot of anger in his early 30s.


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> Somewhere in this thread the terms projection and dark were used, that is where I got it, and I also said, if I'm wrong, I apologize. It is easy to misinterpret during a web discussion. And you are talking to someone who dealt with a lot of anger in his early 30s.



I find your input cautious and honest.  That's a good thing.  I appreciate it.

I do sometimes use terms like "dark".  I spent time there.  It's not scientific, but describes emotional and mental states.


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## EdwardA

I'll give an example of the result, of how I turned my destructive training into something more positive.

I was in a campus setting.  I'm 140 Lbs.  Three guys hogging the side walk.  All three at 180 to 220 Lbs., and in good shape.  At one of the sidewalk intersections, I jumped around them....didn't touch anybody, but they were offended and talking smack at me.  I just keep walking.  One of them ran up behind me and grabbed me by the shoulder.  When I cross a certain level of threat, my vision goes dark.  I can only describe it as looking deeply into a mirror (yes, I know this sounds mystical, but it's the only way I know to describe it.  When this happens, I don't know what I'm doing and I only get glimpses of what happened afterward).  As I swung around to my left, I grabbed him by the elbow.  That changed the direction of movement to my left.  As I turned to grab his elbow, I also started a double flying crescent....pair of kicks.  The first crescent just intensified the movement toward the left with no contact.  The 2nd crescent, instead of kicking him, I landed it on his hip and stepped up on him (while maintaining my center of gravity, because I had a hold of his elbow and he out-weighed me by 50 pounds).  15ft. later I pushed him to the ground.  I didn't hit anybody, but those guys decided they didn't want any part of me.  When he got up off the ground and ran over to his buddies, they were practically hanging all over each other in comfort, to get the heck away from me, in utter shock.

My description of my state of mind might sound mystical because I have no idea of how to scientifically describe how my training puts my mind into this subconscious state.  I know how I trained, but describing it in any kind of scientific manner is difficult, of not impossible.  At least for me, but it took a great deal of time and purpose to embed this into my subconscious.


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I'm not sure why you're seeing it that way... maybe because you've seen it discussed that way.  It is nothing but natural potential.



Okie dokie, nice talking to you


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## Xue Sheng

EdwardA said:


> I'll give an example of the result, of how I turned my destructive training into something more positive.
> 
> I was in a campus setting.  I'm 140 Lbs.  Three guys hogging the side walk.  All three at 180 to 220 Lbs., and in good shape.  At one of the sidewalk intersections, I jumped around them....didn't touch anybody, but they were offended and talking smack at me.  I just keep walking.  One of them ran up behind me and grabbed me by the shoulder.  When I cross a certain level of threat, my vision goes dark.  I can only describe it as looking deeply into a mirror (yes, I know this sounds mystical, but it's the only way I know to describe it.  When this happens, I don't know what I'm doing and I only get glimpses of what happened afterward).  As I swung around to my left, I grabbed him by the elbow.  That changed the direction of movement to my left.  As I turned to grab his elbow, I also started a double flying crescent....pair of kicks.  The first crescent just intensified the movement toward the left with no contact.  The 2nd crescent, instead of kicking him, I landed it on his hip and stepped up on him (while maintaining my center of gravity, because I had a hold of his elbow and he out-weighed me by 50 pounds).  15ft. later I pushed him to the ground.  I didn't hit anybody, but those guys decided they didn't want any part of me.  When he got up off the ground and ran over to his buddies, they were practically hanging all over each other in comfort, to get the heck away from me, in utter shock.
> 
> My description of my state of mind might sound mystical because I have no idea of how to scientifically describe how my training puts my mind into this subconscious state.  I know how I trained, but describing it in any kind of scientific manner is difficult, of not impossible.  At least for me, but it took a great deal of time and purpose to embed this into my subconscious.



Got in a fight, one night, I did not start, about 40 years ago, with three guys, they ended up by running from me as well. But frankly, what you are describing, has nothing to do with Qi or qigong, beyond the use ot the energy for the attack. 

and again, nice taking to you


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## EdwardA

Xue Sheng said:


> Got in a fight, one night, I did not start, about 40 years ago, with three guys, they ended up by running from me as well. But frankly, what you are describing, has nothing to do with Qi or qigong, beyond the use ot the energy for the attack.
> 
> and again, nice taking to you



I can see the explanation as being somewhat vague, but I see high potential as being one thing, all....from structure including mind, emotion, body and spirit.  All lined up in unison.  Every aspect.


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## _Simon_

mograph said:


> Have you read Csikszentmihalyi's _Flow_?
> Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi - Wikipedia
> 
> (pronounced "cheeks sent me high")


No I haven't, haven't heard of the fellow, but that's awesome to read about, cheers for that! That's exactly the feeling, describes it very well. That must be where the term "flow state" originated then I imagine


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## Fudo

Dear Op,
The first thing to understand is about Qi is the meaning changes if another word is in front of it or after it. The best defination I think as a catch all for the different meanings and word order using Qi is energy, a very broad defination. 
Cojak Hanzi Dictionary: Hanzi Character Search: 气
You can see how many everyday words using Qi in it.
The more supernatural and folklore side which is what a lot of people think Qi is in the west is just religious,superstitious, and folklore. 
By defination someone being able to kick and punch like Muay Thai is using Qi specfically Qi Li.


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## EdwardA

_Simon_ said:


> No I haven't, haven't heard of the fellow, but that's awesome to read about, cheers for that! That's exactly the feeling, describes it very well. That must be where the term "flow state" originated then I imagine



I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.


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## _Simon_

EdwardA said:


> I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.


Haha ah yep fair enough. There is value in that at times, rather than dumbing down sometimes 'simplifying' is beneficial and helps quite complex and broad concepts to be distilled into easier to comprehend chunks or foundational teachings. Either that or maybe he has a different perspective or way of expressing this stuff. Or perhaps indeed he is unnecessarily dumbing down hehe, I'd have to read more into it to be honest


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## EdwardA

_Simon_ said:


> Haha ah yep fair enough. There is value in that at times, rather than dumbing down sometimes 'simplifying' is beneficial and helps quite complex and broad concepts to be distilled into easier to comprehend chunks or foundational teachings. Either that or maybe he has a different perspective or way of expressing this stuff. Or perhaps indeed he is unnecessarily dumbing down hehe, I'd have to read more into it to be honest



Yeah, you've got a point, but there are lots of PHDs that think the rest of us are stupid.  I've had conversations with a few.  They generally don't like me too much...haha.


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## Oily Dragon

mograph said:


> My teacher's philosophy on qigong was based on zhan zhuang practice: stand, avoid interfering, and let the body do what it needs to do.



The wu ji by itself (part of the same practice) is enough to feel Qi. Of course, feeling Qi is not the goal of Qigong.

People are don't "believe" in Qi are deluded.  They ignore their own body's energy because they are not attuned with it.


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## Hanzou

androz said:


> Well, my opinion is that, even with equal atlethic level, chinese traditional arts have somehow less effectiveness.
> 
> But my main point here is that CHI seems to add nothing to the skills,  except maybe mastering correct respiration and an unperturbed mind.
> 
> I guess Xu Xiaodong is doing a great demistification job, and for that is heavily ostracised by chinese government.
> And keep in mind that Xu Xiaodong consider himself a "mediocre" MMA fighter



Xu is an extremely mediocre MMA fighter. From what I'm hearing though, Xu is causing concern because his bouts are starting to do serious damage to the credibility of Chinese martial arts in China.


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## mograph

EdwardA said:


> I agree that "flow state" is a good term, but looking at the rest of Mihaly's more western approach seemed owkward.  Maybe I'm wrong, but it seemed as though he was bringing it down for the low IQ of us dumb westerners.



It's a mistake to conflate the concepts of Flow and Qi. 
Csikszentmihalyi is not trying to explain qi.


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## isshinryuronin

Attention _Martial Art Talk_ administrators -
Several postings here call for the need of an additional rating besides Agree, Like, Useful, etc. -
How about one for "Confused."


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## EdwardA

mograph said:


> It's a mistake to conflate the concepts of Flow and Qi.
> Csikszentmihalyi is not trying to explain qi.



Yes, "flow" is a very generalized term.


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## Kung Fu Wang

isshinryuronin said:


> Attention _Martial Art Talk_ administrators -
> Several postings here call for the need of an additional rating besides Agree, Like, Useful, etc. -
> How about one for "Confused."


How can you expect any un-confused post in a confused thread?


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## mograph

Fudo said:


> Dear Op,
> The first thing to understand is about Qi is the meaning changes if another word is in front of it or after it.



Yes -- qi is a context-dependent word.


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## Xue Sheng

https://www.sacredlotus.com/go/foundations-chinese-medicine/get/forms-of-qi-life-force

What is Qi? Qi in TCM Acupuncture Theory | Chinese Medicine Theory - Yin Yang House


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## Oily Dragon

mograph said:


> Yes -- qi is a context-dependent word.



yes.

Put another way, there are 10,000 qis, none of which are Qi.

Like a bowl of rice!


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## zzj

It's pretty straight forward for me, training qi improves my ability to 'feel' and control my body coordination as well as adding an additional 'layer' of control that I suspect has to do largely with activating the fascia. Thinking in terms of the 'qi' flow through the body helps in executing clean and powerful throws, strikes etc, in fact, I felt an improvement in my ability ever since I was able to think and feel qi under pressure instead of instinctively falling back to the physicality of the body.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Have you noticed that you no longer hear about Chi master any more? Back the in 80, the Chi masters were all over the place. Suddenly they all disappear from the face of earth. Why?


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## Oily Dragon

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you noticed that you no longer hear about Chi master any more? Back the in 80, the Chi masters were all over the place. Suddenly they all disappear from the face of earth. Why?



Because now everyone thinks they're a Chi master.  

Even you and I!


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## Master Zhang

Yes indeed the tchi energy was overrated a few years ago!  This energy is present in our body and we can exploit it but obviously nothing to do with what these so-called masters showed us at the time. An interesting article on qi energy and other info on the philosophy of Yin Yang: https://the-yin-yang-shop.com/blogs/yin-yang-blog/qi-energy


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## Bobbycat

Just from my experience in Xing Yi Quan, Qi feeling in the body can increase body awareness, unification, intention, and smoothness of movements. As a result, strike power and speed also increase.
There are different feelings of Qi in the body like lightness, warming, electricity… and heaviness. I believe that for Xing Yi applications the internal filling with heavy Qi is more suitable. In this case, our muscles are relaxed, but we are solid inside and good rooted. Strikes are fast and powerful. I do not know how it will be useful for other styles.


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## JowGaWolf

Old Post blues


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## Kung Fu Wang

Bobbycat said:


> I do not know how it will be useful for other styles.


Do you need to use Qi for 

- hip throw?
- side kick?
- wrist lock?

Is Qi only used for punch?


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## Bobbycat

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you need to use Qi for
> 
> - hip throw?
> - side kick?
> - wrist lock?
> 
> Is Qi only used for punch?


As I‘ve wrote, I practice Xing Yi where strike techniques predominate. I think heavy Qi is useful for internal styles and low effective for others. But Qi can energize muscles and  how you want to use this effect is up to you.


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## Kung Fu Wang

Bobbycat said:


> But Qi can energize muscles and  how you want to use this effect is up to you.


Here is my question. If Qi energize muscle and help someone to improve his hip throw, side kick, ..., do you think that the Chinese Olympic teams will add Qi training into their national Olympic Judo, wrestling, TKD teams training?

There are Qi masters all over China. I'm sure they would like to help the Chinese to earn international reputation. Those Qi masters have not done that yet. Why?


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## Koryuhoka

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx


The only real way to "debunk" something is to go and spend a significant amount of time studying it.


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## Koryuhoka

androz said:


> Hi everybody.
> 
> I have an unconfortable question.
> Why, when we talk about real fight, mastering internal styles and QI is useless against martial arts like Muay thai ecc? Sometimes QI  seems to me like an eleborate  scam
> 
> I apologize if I was rude but i like to have a straight answer about the question
> 
> thx


This is supposedly a true story. Wang Xiang Zhai, the founder of Yiquan/Dacheng Quan, was a highly skilled internal arts practitioner. One of his best friends was also a practitioner. They worked out together one day and during a sparring match, Wang struck his friend in the stomach with his palm - not a forceful blow, but he ruptured a couple of his internal organs and he died shortly. Wang Xiang Zhai mourned his friend for 3 years, vowing not to train or practice during his mourning. This was told to me by Dong Yuan Pei, student of Yu Peng Shi, disciple of Wang Xiang ZhaI. I believe it. 

The thing about Qi, and the internal arts, is that the practice is complicated and those who study it have very serious outlooks on the arts and life in general. That mindset of competition is far from their thoughts, and they believe that their arts are for the preservation of life and liberty, not outward or material gain. 

The same man that told me of Master Wang, saw in me the skeptic, and one day asked me to take hold of his wrists. I did so. He shook very slightly and I flew back onto a sofa that was about 8 feet behind me. I didn't even feel the floor, but I flew back very quickly. After that demonstration, I went home and an hour later, I was feeling a vibration in my whole body that I never felt before or since. It lasted about an hour and a half. I was sweating, flushed and very hot. 

You are not being rude. You are just not knowledgeable or experience with such things. 

Qi is Physics. Look at the Chinese character and take it apart. You will see that it is Biophysics.


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## Bobbycat

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is my question. If Qi energize muscle and help someone to improve his hip throw, side kick, ..., do you think that the Chinese Olympic teams will add Qi training into their national Olympic Judo, wrestling, TKD teams training?
> 
> There are Qi masters all over China. I'm sure they would like to help the Chinese to earn international reputation. Those Qi masters have not done that yet. Why?


I believe Chinese sports medicine specialists do that.


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## Oily Dragon

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is my question. If Qi energize muscle and help someone to improve his hip throw, side kick, ..., do you think that the Chinese Olympic teams will add Qi training into their national Olympic Judo, wrestling, TKD teams training?
> 
> There are Qi masters all over China. I'm sure they would like to help the Chinese to earn international reputation. Those Qi masters have not done that yet. Why?



All over the whole world.

Why?  Qi is the energy of the snake, as observed by the Shaolin, long ago.


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## Xue Sheng

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is my question. If Qi energize muscle and help someone to improve his hip throw, side kick, ..., do you think that the Chinese Olympic teams will add Qi training into their national Olympic Judo, wrestling, TKD teams training?
> 
> There are Qi masters all over China. I'm sure they would like to help the Chinese to earn international reputation. Those Qi masters have not done that yet. Why?





Bobbycat said:


> I believe Chinese sports medicine specialists do that.



Well, they do have TCM docs on their teams for support, acupuncture, herbal and trying to balance the flow of energy/qi


----------

