# Interesting read concerning Bujinkan



## lalom (Sep 13, 2006)

I stumbled into this over on E-Budo and thought it interesting enough to share. What are you thoughts on this?



> Rant: &#8220;The Secret History of the Bujinkan, and how it relates to Pammachon&#8221;
> 
> This rant has to do with what is taught in the Pammachon system, and how it relates to what is today called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The composition is not meant to be a complete analysis, but rather an overview &#8211; a complete analysis would require several chapters. To make it easy for those who will copy it and post it elsewhere, this rant was generated in response to a thread at allforums.gr, whose originator stated that there is no difference between what I taught in 1992 while in the Bujinkan, and what I am teaching today. Here is my position on that.
> 
> ...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 13, 2006)

As far as the historical validity goes, at times it seems as if the originator is pontificating from ignorance. I'll leave it at that. But in regards to all this talk of Hatsumi as a businessman first and foremost: they day I see or hear about him rocking shine, sipping Cris and cruising around the streets of Noda in a chromed-out Benz with ******* in da front and ******* in da back, that's the day I'll say he's handling his money in an irresponsible manner.


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## DWeidman (Sep 13, 2006)

lalom said:


> I stumbled into this over on E-Budo and thought it interesting enough to share. What are you thoughts on this?


 
I think this has been talked about on Kutaki as well as E-budo.  Do some more searching -- if you think something has been missed - pipe up.

-Daniel Weidman
Bujinkan TenChiJin Guy...


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## Dale Seago (Sep 14, 2006)

DWeidman said:


> I think this has been talked about on Kutaki as well as E-budo.



Indeed it has, and it's ridiculous as far as I'm concerned. Soke is wealthy. But he has no need whatsoever for the Bujinkan. He comes from a well-to-do family and to my understanding has increased his financial standing primarily through real estate investments.


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## Rubber Tanto (Sep 14, 2006)

OMG! Stop the press! that article has me in complete shock! I mean what the hell...a business man...interested in developing his business!!!! I mean WTF??

Jesus and here are all the other martial art instructors in the world teaching students for free without the slightest dream of one day running a successful martial art school for capital gain!!

I know I go to work for free and come home and feed my family on the sheer love of my job....sigh.

Honestly, why do so many people get caught up in this stuff I'll never know. I mean who cares? If you want to learn bujinkan budo taijutsu, go to a class. If you like it, train in it, if you don't like it, train in something different. It's pretty much THAT simple.

I go to class and I train. I try to make my taijutsu solid. I test my taijutsu against other fighters to make sure that which I feel is becoming solid remains solid and that is good enough for me. How much money hatsumi makes or how he made it is the smallest of my concerns...I wish others could think like this.


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## JasonASmith (Sep 14, 2006)

Honestly, why do so many people get caught up in this stuff I'll never know. I mean who cares? If you want to learn bujinkan budo taijutsu, go to a class. If you like it, train in it, if you don't like it, train in something different. It's pretty much THAT simple.

I go to class and I train. I try to make my taijutsu solid. I test my taijutsu against other fighters to make sure that which I feel is becoming solid remains solid and that is good enough for me. How much money hatsumi makes or how he made it is the smallest of my concerns...I wish others could think like this.[/quote]

I throughly agree with this statement...
Nice Job...


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## lalom (Sep 14, 2006)

So who, exactly, is this guy who wrote this?  Is this a disgruntled ex-bujinkan practictioner?  I mean, he is really coming open with some disturbing accusations about Soke that doesn't make him look like the upstanding, peaceful man we know him to be. 

Is this a great cover-up exposed?  I'd like to hear some other explanations besides my perceived "let's just not talk about it" or "why do people get involved in this politics stuff."  What is the truth regarding this matter?  Is there anyone on MT that personally knows what happened? I mean, personally - not the usual "unconfirmed sources around Japan are saying", but is there someone who really knows the truth behind this story?


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## Dale Seago (Sep 14, 2006)

beginer27 said:


> hey what is chaka exactly my friend who does nijutsu ( i dont do ninjutsu ) says i have more in my feet than she does what does she mean can u tell me



Your question is not written coherently enough for a speaker of English to understand. (At least I'm guessing that this is the case, as I've spoken it all my life and I can't understand what you're asking.) Does it have anything to do with this particular thread?


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## Carol (Sep 15, 2006)

Dale Seago said:


> Your question is not written coherently enough for a speaker of English to understand. (At least I'm guessing that this is the case, as I've spoken it all my life and I can't understand what you're asking.) Does it have anything to do with this particular thread?


 
I don't think so Dale.  The post first appeared in a post in the Women Martial Artist forum in the middle about a thread about doing TKD while pregnant.  

Confused mate?  So am I.  And GOOD to "see" you again!  :asian:


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## Rubber Tanto (Sep 15, 2006)

lalom said:


> So who, exactly, is this guy who wrote this? Is this a disgruntled ex-bujinkan practictioner? I mean, he is really coming open with some disturbing accusations about Soke that doesn't make him look like the upstanding, peaceful man *we know him to be*.


 
Well that's where we fall down, neh? I mean...I don't know hatsumi at all. When I joined the bujinkan, I didn't walk up to the sensei of the dojo I decided to join and say "so what's the head of this system like? I mean is he a nice guy? Would my mother think he's sweet?" nope...sorry...I just went to the dojo and looked to see if the instructor knew his stuff. Then I sparred with him to make sure he could practice what he preached then I watched the whole class to make sure I was impressed by the style of fighting. How peacefull hatsumi was or how he built the system were things I never factored in...if you do, then that's something you must deal with.




lalom said:


> Is this a great cover-up exposed? I'd like to hear some other explanations besides my perceived "let's just not talk about it" or "why do people get involved in this politics stuff." What is the truth regarding this matter? Is there anyone on MT that personally knows what happened? I mean, personally - not the usual "unconfirmed sources around Japan are saying", but is there someone who really knows the truth behind this story?


 
Sorry man if you disliked my reply but hey....what do you expect...the topic is useless...sure there is alot of things in it that ring true, there is also a few things in it that ring of BS and others that just sound like sour grapes. But I would bet you a dollar that find a cluster of  "ex" participants of any martial art and you will find a post that rants on the head of the system. So what...even if much of it is true...so what...my instructor can fight, can successfully defend himself and teaches this system in a way that I find effective and useful. That should be the bujinkan crusdae you should embark on: finding such bujinkan instructors...everything else is a waste of bandwidth...

Sorry if I sound harsh...but hey...that's me.
~Nick


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## Don Roley (Sep 15, 2006)

lalom said:


> So who, exactly, is this guy who wrote this?  Is this a disgruntled ex-bujinkan practictioner?  I mean, he is really coming open with some disturbing accusations about Soke that doesn't make him look like the upstanding, peaceful man we know him to be.
> 
> Is this a great cover-up exposed?  I'd like to hear some other explanations besides my perceived "let's just not talk about it" or "why do people get involved in this politics stuff."  What is the truth regarding this matter?  Is there anyone on MT that personally knows what happened? I mean, personally - not the usual "unconfirmed sources around Japan are saying", but is there someone who really knows the truth behind this story?



Disgruntled ex-Bujinkan member- yes. That does not mean we should not listen to what he says. Some people have said that he is misleading people about the time he trained and other things, and I don't know who to believe.

I took part in that discussion and my main point was that his dislike of Hatsumi colored his views of the situation and caused him to think that he acted with certain intentions.

As I said in that thread, there is evidence that the founder of the Togakure ryu was a real person and that the tradition existed long before Takamatsu. Exactly how long and in what form is not clear, nor will it ever I think. And the evidence, while quite strong IMO, is circumstancial and not in the form of a notarized document from the 12th century or anything like that.

But even so, his main contention that Takamatsu made up the art and Hatsumi knows it and is knowingly spreading a lie is not valid IMO. There has been no evidence to disprove the  claims by Takamatsu. Hatsumi has had a historian tell him that proof that the founder was a real person was found in an historical document and helped fill in many details of Takamatsu's story about a decade after he died. Some people may require a notarized document from the founder and every soke since then before they will treat the claims as vaild, but from Hatsumi's point of view there is no reason to doubt his teacher's word. That is not something you do in Japanese society. 

I see nothing to make me believe that Hatsumi is doing anything other than passing along what he learned as best he can. So I can consider him an honorable person even if I have my doubts that _every little detail_ passed down by word of mouth is 100 percent correct. For that reason I get along with a lot of people that think that the art is not 800 years old, but rip apart just about every fake that tries to cover up their own lies by trying to paint Hatsumi as one. 

If you go to Hatsumi he will lay out all the proof he had with Takamatsu and be totally honest about his training experiences. He is just passing along what he was told, just like I think Takamatsu was. Of course, I can't ask Takamatsu because he is dead. So when someone makes a claim of being taught by a secret ninja master, but won't show any proof of it, they get treated like a fraud. Hatsumi does not come even close to that situation.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

Based on what I have read, heard and personally observed in Japan I am totally confident in Soke's authenticity.  I think that he is doing exactly what Don said above ie: passing on what was taught to him by Takamatsu.  Matter of fact we now have DVD footage of Takamatsu doing just that, teaching Hatsumi!  Takamatsu was the Kukishinden Soke or person holding the knowledge for a future Soke as well as the Soke of Takagi Yoshin Ryu.  This is a fact.  We also know that the origional founder of Togakure Ryu was indeed a real live breathing person.  We also know that one of Hatsumi's students who is also a Grandmaster and Soke in his own right (Genbukan) has had several of the lines of Budo Taijutsu classified as Koryu. (Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu being one)  Mind you these are the lines that were taught by Hatsumi but later Tanemura went to a former Takamatsu student and received Sokeship from them.  How much more authenticity do you want?

As to the Devernis article.  Well, he seems disgruntled and upset possibly because of his personal involvement in discrediting Stephen Hayes. (that had to upset lots and lots of people and he had to take a lot of heat for it)  His article also seems as a measure to prop up himself and make himself look better. (to those he upset when exposing Hayes)  

Those are my thought on this matter.  Really having been to Japan and observed Soke as well at Tai Kai there is no question in my mind on his abilities or his authenticity.  Other people I know who are closer to the source also feel exactly this way.


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## kuoshu (Sep 15, 2006)

I'm always cautious when I read stuff by former members of a martial art especially when they are now running their own new system. Often they are pushing an agenda of their own.

However, I do think the questions Dervenis raises about the history are important ones.

My question is this: How come we never see these kinds of debates about whether Risuke Otake made up Katori Shinto Ryu or whether Junzo Sasamori made up Itto Ryu? 

There seems to be this misconception that proving a historical lineage is a really hard and almost impossible thing to do. Now if that was the case, how did Katori Shinto Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu and Araki Ryu and Yagyu Shingan Ryu and all the other koryu manage to prove their lineages? Why wasn&#8217;t it such an impossible task for them? They all had to deal with the same floods, wars, fires etc. etc. that everyone else did, but they&#8217;ve managed just fine.

There&#8217;s also this mistaken idea that proving Mr. Toda existed would be so difficult and impossible for anyone to do. We keep hearing that it would take many people years and years to trace him and that it&#8217;s too big a task etc. etc.. The man was supposedly alive in the 20th century and allegedly taught the military. And he left no trace of his existence? Japan was not America where individuals could live and move around with impunity and without leaving any trace. 

It&#8217;s also been interesting to see how the Bujinkan response has changed over the years. When the Skoss koryu.com article first appeared, the responses were indignant statements like &#8220;Of course there&#8217;s proof! The ignorant koryu people just haven&#8217;t bothered looking for it&#8221;! Later on that changed to become &#8220;Yes there is proof, but it&#8217;s secret and Hatsumi doesn&#8217;t need to show it&#8221;! And now it has changed to become &#8220;Absence of proof isn&#8217;t proof of absence&#8221;, usually accompanied by lots of references to &#8220;trust&#8221; and &#8220;faith&#8221;. 

Just for the record, I don't doubt Mr Hatsumi DID learn from Mr Takamatsu.

Paul


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> I'm always cautious when I read stuff by former members of a martial art especially when they are now running their own new system. Often they are pushing an agenda of their own.
> 
> However, I do think the questions Dervenis raises about the history are important ones.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Paul, I do not think that the Bujinkan response has changed that much over the years. (we are still indignant towards the small certain *western* Koryu group that has shown no proof of their claims that these lineages are not historically old only their conjecture)  Those in the know are happy in the knowledge that the lineage is old.  Clearly the Kukishinden Ryu and Takagi Yoshin Ryu lineages are *without* question.  It has been proven that Takamatsu taught Hatsumi.  It has also been proven that Daisuke Nishina of Togakure Ryu was a real person.  It is also clearly obvious to anyone who sees him in person that Hatsumi is a *premier* world class martial artists of the *highest level*.

As to Toda Sensei, well in time I imagine there will be proof.  However, there is the distinct posibility that when Japan was *fire bombed* that papers regarding him are gone. (not uncommon during this time)

Do not also forget that Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu (Genbukan) was found to be a Koryu art.  Who taught Takagi Yoshin Ryu to Tanemura?  Yes, I know he went to another Takamatsu Sensei student to get a Sokeship after the split but who taught him? ( Hatsumi did)  If one lineage from Takamatsu is legit and Koryu then I imagine that the true Soke of Takamatsu Sensei lineages also could prove Koryu with Takagi Yoshin Ryu if he so choosed.

If Hatsumi Sensei does not want to jump through other peoples *hoops* at this point in his life why should he?  At least one other Soke of an art who took his scrolls out of his home lost them forever.  

As to Katori Shinto Ryu?  Well it is just one lineage not *nine*.  That is a significant differeance.  It is just one art. (that is easier to keep everything together)  Nine seperate ones that came together.  Well that is I imagine *challenging* to keep everything together let alone perfectly straight in ones mind.

However, I am the least qualified to argue the lineages of the Bujinkan there are so many people who have a better understanding of the history.  Such as Paul Richardson, Don Roley, Richard Maloff and so on. 
These are just some of my ramblings and nothing more.


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## bencole (Sep 15, 2006)

lalom said:


> Is this a great cover-up exposed? I'd like to hear some other explanations besides my perceived "let's just not talk about it" or "why do people get involved in this politics stuff." What is the truth regarding this matter?


 
Why don't you do us a favor and summarize Dervenis' claims and the proof he provides.... I mean literally write in your response to this request:

CLAIM: XXXX
PROOF: YYYY

I think you'll find the list is a little heavy on the former and very light on the latter. 

I don't see why people are going crazy over a guy who speaks/reads no Japanese who spent about a year in Japan who says, "I saw nothing to prove things, so it must be false." Huh? Charles Daniels, his teacher and the source of some of his information, also speaks/reads zero Japanese. Why would anyone expect martial artists (however competent) to be validating historians of Japanese martial arts? I don't get it....



			
				kuoshu said:
			
		

> My question is this: How come we never see these kinds of debates about whether Risuke Otake made up Katori Shinto Ryu or whether Junzo Sasamori made up Itto Ryu?
> 
> There seems to be this misconception that proving a historical lineage is a really hard and almost impossible thing to do. Now if that was the case, how did Katori Shinto Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu and Araki Ryu and Yagyu Shingan Ryu and all the other koryu manage to prove their lineages? Why wasnt it such an impossible task for them? They all had to deal with the same floods, wars, fires etc. etc. that everyone else did, but theyve managed just fine.


 
Well, it was certainly easier for school with essentially "daimyo sponsorship" or "temple sponsorship" to do this. Why do you think these "well-known schools" are, well, ya know, "well known"? 



			
				kuoshu said:
			
		

> Its also been interesting to see how the Bujinkan response has changed over the years. When the Skoss koryu.com article first appeared, the responses were indignant statements like Of course theres proof! The ignorant koryu people just havent bothered looking for it! Later on that changed to become Yes there is proof, but its secret and Hatsumi doesnt need to show it! And now it has changed to become Absence of proof isnt proof of absence, usually accompanied by lots of references to trust and faith.


 
The response has *ALWAYS* been the same among senior students: "The Koryu people have no real interest in ninjutsu so we shouldn't expect them to know much about such schools." If you are going to base your opinions of "the changing Bujinkan response" on what some green belt in Montana says, then your compass isn't pointing North, dude....

The Koryu crowd essentially came out saying that the Bujinkan is not Koryu. I (and many others ) completely agree!!! "The Bujinkan" was completely made up as an umbrella organization in the honor of Takamatsu-sensei by Hatsumi-sensei. 

Now, just because the Bujinkan is *NOT* Koryu does *NOT* mean that none of the Bujinkan arts are Koryu. And by "Koryu," this means befitting the definition of Koryu according to that crowd. After people pointed this out to the Koryu folks, the Koryu folks essentially agreed with those assertions. There is simply no way you or they could argue that schools like Kukishin Ryu or Takagi Ryu are *NOT* Koryu....

As for the "ninjutsu arts" under the Bujinkan umbrella, I personally told Dr. Friday (on E-Budo) that I would facilitate an opportunity for him to view Hatsumi-sensei's documents and speak with Hatsumi-sensei. Dr. Friday declined this request. Why? Because, TOGETHER NOW, "he has no interest in ninjutsu arts, and thus has little knowledge to make an assessment." End of story.

As an aside, if you did your homework, you would also recognize that a vast number of Ryuha in Japan (across martial arts, flower arranging, tea pouring, etc.) are considered "Kuden." I'm sure the thousands of instructors of Kuden arts would be quite unhappy to hear that their arts can be completely dismissed merely because a group of 100 people who follow a different lineage vehicle say so. BOTH "Kuden" arts and "Koryu" arts are valid. Period.

It really is tiring to have to rehash "the truth" to every individual who has access to a keyboard. Many times posters in these discussions are raising their hands to "add their two cents" when it is clear that these individuals haven't read the materials in preparation for class. 

If you would not do so in the classroom, then don't do it here on the boards.

-ben


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

bencole said:


> Why don't you do us a favor and summarize Dervenis' claims and the proof he provides.... I mean literally write in your response to this request:
> 
> CLAIM: XXXX
> PROOF: YYYY
> ...


 
Nicely put Ben.  Also Kuoshu understand that Ben Cole is a historian of the Bujinkan and its history and a noted scholar.


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## Bigshadow (Sep 15, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> There seems to be this misconception that proving a historical lineage is a really hard and almost impossible thing to do.



Let me point something out about something I really know about.  That is genealogy.  Tracing the family lineage is most often a daunting task, depending on the family and their position in society as well as many many other influencing factors.  It is often difficult to trace a family's lineage as little as 150 years.  I can personally sympthasize with those tracing lineage back 300, 400, or even 800 years.  Tracing the lineage of a martial art, I am sure is even more daunting than just a family lineage.

So it is simply silly to say proving a historical lineage is easy and to think otherwise is a misconception.  I would take you task on that, and ask how far back can you verify your family lineage with documentation?  Try it sometime.  I have verified mine back to 1635.  It is no easy task.

I know Japan is a different country but I am sure that the level of difficulty is just as high as it is here in the US.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

Bigshadow said:


> Let me point something out about something I really know about. That is genealogy. Tracing the family lineage is most often a daunting task, depending on the family and their position in society as well as many many other influencing factors. It is often difficult to trace a family's lineage as little as 150 years. I can personally sympthasize with those tracing lineage back 300, 400, or even 800 years. Tracing the lineage of a martial art, I am sure is even more daunting than just a family lineage.
> 
> So it is simply silly to say proving a historical lineage is easy and to think otherwise is a misconception. I would take you task on that, and ask how far back can you verify your family lineage with documentation? Try it sometime. I have verified mine back to 1635. It is no easy task.
> 
> I know Japan is a different country but I am sure that the level of difficulty is just as high as it is here in the US.


 
Tracing family life lines can definately be challenging.


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## bencole (Sep 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Nicely put Ben. Also Kuoshu understand that Ben Cole is a historian of the Bujinkan and its history and a noted scholar.


 
Thanks for the vote of confidence, Brian, but I wouldn't consider myself a "historian of the Bujinkan" and a "noted scholar." I'm just a guy who reads and writes Japanese (so I have looked at original sources of information), who trained in Japan for a number of years, and acted as translator for Soke along the way. 

The points I raised have nothing to do with "qualifications." They have to do with whether it is appropriate to blurt out answers in class without having done the homework or read the materials prior to class. (I'm teaching at the university this term and I definitely ding students who do this. Thus the analogy.)

Cheers!

-ben


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## Monadnock (Sep 15, 2006)

bencole said:


> The Koryu crowd essentially came out saying that the Bujinkan is not Koryu. I (and many others ) completely agree!!! "The Bujinkan" was completely made up as an umbrella organization in the honor of Takamatsu-sensei by Hatsumi-sensei.
> 
> Now, just because the Bujinkan is *NOT* Koryu does *NOT* mean that none of the Bujinkan arts are Koryu. And by "Koryu," this means befitting the definition of Koryu according to that crowd. After people pointed this out to the Koryu folks, the Koryu folks essentially agreed with those assertions. There is simply no way you or they could argue that schools like Kukishin Ryu or Takagi Ryu are *NOT* Koryu....
> 
> ...


 
This is very intersting. So are the nine ryu of the Bujinkan Koryu, "Kuden", or a mixture? What is the definition of a Kuden, and which of the 9 ryu fit which?

I pulled these statements from the original post:



> ...As is well known, Hatsumi Sensei, already a high-ranking practitioner of other martial arts, became a student of Toshitsugu Takamatsu. *Now, Takamatsu was notorious in Japan for claiming to be the lineage holder of several ninja ryu-ha, a claim that he, unfortunately, was never able to prove.* He was also, verifiably, a shihan-ke of the Kukishin ryu, which gave him a measure of prestige, and the background to base his other claims on. He was, for the record, an extraordinary martial artist that had lived in China for a decade. As for the rest, his assertions do not really have bearing on this essay, except to say that they have never been proven, and that I personally do not believe them...
> 
> ...For a time, Hatsumi let the ninja image go, and concentrated on serious training based on the bujutsu he had been taught by Takamatsu. In the 70s, this small school had an extraordinary reputation in martial arts circles in Japan  the students there were tough! (I witnessed perhaps the last vestiges of that reputation in 1986). The training was severe! *I have no doubt that for a long time, Hatsumi Sensei personally believed Takamatsu Senseis claims. However, it is a matter of record that in the late 70s he asked Shoto Tanemura, then a policeman, to investigate his teachers claims, and Tanemura was unable to verify their validity, including the existence of the Grandmaster cited as previous to Takamatsu!* *Therefore, there is no question that, at least by the 80s, Hatsumi Sensei knew exactly what was going on regarding the lineage he was holding*....
> 
> ...Give me a break. I maintain that everything Hatsumi sensei had to teach about the martial arts is enclosed in the few dozen pages of the TenChiJin. He created this methodology when he thought he was dying, and a dying man wants to create what he deems best for his legacy. The rest of the stuff? *He is making it up as he goes along,* year by year, and people are buying into it by the truckload....


 
These are rather pointed accusations to an organization that prides itself on legitimacy. Is there an official organization that can verify all 9 ryu of the Bujinkan? That they were taught by real people, continuously from one generation to the next and have the densho to go with them?

I find the Bujinkan story very intersting, and have very limited experience in the training, but do have an honest interest on how these 9 shcools were passed on to one individual to the next. Can on person be counted as keeping an art alive? An art that may have sat in the books for generations, without being practiced, and then just revived? Or is that the nature of a "Kuden", that it is taught private, or in secret, to only one person?

Thanks!


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## bencole (Sep 15, 2006)

Monadnock said:


> This is very intersting. So are the nine ryu of the Bujinkan Koryu, "Kuden", or a mixture? What is the definition of a Kuden, and which of the 9 ryu fit which?


 
"Kuden" means simply "oral transmission." It is a completely valid and historically verifiable way in which Ryuha information has been passed on in Japan across various disciplines (from martial arts to ikebana).

As for what constitutes "Koryu" and what constitutes "Kuden," and who decides, and what it means, I will point you to this. 

http://blog.bushinbooks.com/

I've been thinking for a while of starting a blog containing "cool posts" that I've collected over the years. So many great posts have been lost to thread drifts, flame wars, thread deletions and thread locks. Whenever I saw a cool post, I would usually cut-and-paste it into Word, or print an electronic PDF of it. 

I had been thinking about making this information available online as a "best of the boards according to biased bencole"  , but I've found that I really don't like the way blogging tools allow me to organize information. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I've had a lot of difficulty trying to make things fit within folders, etc.  I've got a ton of cool stuff going back to the days of Ninpo-L, but if I cannot figure out a way of organizing them all by theme, it's going to be a complete mess. (If anyone knows WordPress and has some ideas about how to place more than one post below a navigation tool, let me know! Right now, it displays all articles all the time. If it does that for every article, then my navi will have hundreds of links displayed at the same time. Yikes!)

Anyhow, if you are willing to ignore the dysfunctional navigation and the relative lack of information in this skeleton page, these two initial posts MIGHT be helpful to you. This blog thing may never get off the ground, but at least these two relevant posts are there and consumable. So, for now, the tools fits; let's use it. LOL!

-ben


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## Don Roley (Sep 15, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> There seems to be this misconception that proving a historical lineage is a really hard and almost impossible thing to do. Now if that was the case, how did Katori Shinto Ryu and Takenouchi Ryu and Araki Ryu and Yagyu Shingan Ryu and all the other koryu manage to prove their lineages? Why wasn&#8217;t it such an impossible task for them? They all had to deal with the same floods, wars, fires etc. etc. that everyone else did, but they&#8217;ve managed just fine.



The schools you list are all high profile arts that were famous long before the modern age. There are people talking about them and the exploits of their founders and practicioners in records going back a good long time. They also were wide spread with a lot of practicioners with their own records pretty much all over the country.

There were many more arts that were smaller and pretty much unknown outside of a few people. People did not hear about them, did not talk about them and left little or no mention of them. Or a reference in passing is all we know of them, and not much else.

It wasn't due to secrecy. It is just that they were not big enough to be noticed like the Katori, Takeuchi, Yagyu or other schools like that.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

Actually Don, Ben and everyone else, based on his post over on E-Budo I think that Kuosho is really not interested in our opinions and was possibly just trolling here to get us going. 

http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31690


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## Cryozombie (Sep 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think that Kuosho is really not interested in our opinions and was possibly just trolling here


 

Nooooo... its just not possible.  A troll in the ninjutsu section?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 15, 2006)

Technopunk said:


> Nooooo... its just not possible. A troll in the ninjutsu section?


 
Yep, surprise, surprise!


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## Koinu (Sep 15, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yep, surprise, surprise!



The title of this thread should have been , A boring OLD read about the Bujinkan .

This article has been around for some time and appeared on a Greek BBS first, way before it was dredged up and put on Ebudo.

Mr Dervenis has many holes in his own story and his time lines about things he put forth as facts are well to be polite way off.
Some here have stated they like to know the real story ? Well you won't get it posting questions on BBS's.

IMHO if Hatsumi or Takamatsu made all this up even more reason for me to train with them as that in itself proves beyond doubt just how talented Martial artist they are/were ! Rubber Tanto hit the nail on the head with his first post.


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## Don Roley (Sep 16, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Actually Don, Ben and everyone else, based on his post over on E-Budo I think that Kuosho is really not interested in our opinions and was possibly just trolling here to get us going.
> 
> http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31690



Brian,

You are one of the most level- headed guys here. If you think that the guy is just someone who joined martialtalk to fill out an agenda, then I think I will listen.

My advice to Kuosho is to read the two books by Koyama Ryutaro on ninjutsu if you really care about the matter. They are out of print, so I do not like to use them as a source. But if you really want to go around saying that there is no proof about the Togakure ryu, then it seems only natural that you would seek out all the sources written by independent historians before you make such broad statements.....


----------



## kuoshu (Sep 16, 2006)

Mr bencole,
Kindly lose the patronising tone. Don&#8217;t assume that because I am new to martialtalk that I am also new to the topic under discussion. I happen to be extremely familiar with what&#8217;s going on. I spent many years in Mr Hatsumi's system before I finally decided to leave for two main reasons. One of them being the historical legitimacy. You should have done YOUR homework and checked with me first, before assuming that I "haven't read the materials before class".


I realise that this is a painful issue for you, being as heavily invested as you are. I note that your book (which I have, BTW) claims that "the nine schools of the Bujinkan hail from the ancient battlefields of Japan" and that it is probably uncomfortable for you to realise that maybe only two of them at most -- Kukishin and Takagi -- actually are anywhere near that old. (Strictly speaking, you can't even count Takagi as a battlefield system, but that's getting off the topic.)

On page 2 of your book you write "Within the words was wisdom of thousands of years of lineage" and on page 3 you write "To do so is to ignore 2,600 years of wisdom that forms our heritage". Now, I can fully appreciate that it's distressing for you to realise that maybe an extra zero or two has crept into those numbers. But please try not to take things so personally.
But firstly, let&#8217;s look at your comments about Kostas:



> I don't see why people are going crazy over a guy who speaks/reads no Japanese who spent about a year in Japan


It&#8217;s interesting to note that not so long ago, you were PRAISING Kostas as being someone who &#8220;still has all of his old materials and some really great stories&#8221;. His opinion was good enough for you when you used it to discredit SKH, so why are you suddenly trying to trivialise his experiences?
Now let&#8217;s get back the koryu thing. 



> Well, it was certainly easier for school with essentially "daimyo sponsorship" or "temple sponsorship" to do this. Why do you think these "well-known schools" are, well, ya know, "well known"?



Not all the schools that are recognised as genuine today were well known or had sponsorship. And as Don roley has pointed out on eBudo, Kashima Shin Ryu is an excellent example of a school that was obscure until the last headmaster came forward in the 20th century. However, here's the difference: Kashima Shin Ryu was still able to prove its lineage and be accepted as koryu.



> The response has *ALWAYS* been the same among senior students: "The Koryu people have no real interest in ninjutsu so we shouldn't expect them to know much about such schools." If you are going to base your opinions of "the changing Bujinkan response" on what some green belt in Montana says, then your compass isn't pointing North, dude....



Again, stop with the patronising attitude, dude&#8230;

Let&#8217;s look at the rebuttal of Duncan Mitchell which is still thrown about to &#8220;disprove&#8221; the koryu.com article. In his original essay, Mr. Mitchell writes: 


> There are writings, documents, articles and photos, which clearly link Takamatsu to the *three * men who he trained with. The link to the people from who Takamatsu inherited these traditions is easy to trace BUT you have to actually look




Reading this, you get the impression that it&#8217;s obvious that Toda (the main person in question, by the way) existed and that he taught Togakure Ryu to Mr Takamatsu. In fact, Mr Mitchell emphasizes:



> the link of Takamatsu to Toda, Ishitani and Mizuta is also provable


 
However, now it transpires that the proof of Toda is not actually there after all! Even Mr Tanemura, a policeman, was not able to find any record of the man. And this in a country as record-obsessed as Japan. Hmmmmm.

So now Mr Mitchell&#8217;s stance has recently changed to be:




> Common sense but since I can&#8217;t produce hard evidence I can only agree that if you want to doubt it then I acknowledge that either of us could be correct.




So the links to Toda aren't that clear, are they?



> The Koryu crowd essentially came out saying that the Bujinkan is not Koryu. I (and many others ) completely agree!!! "The Bujinkan" was completely made up as an umbrella organization in the honor of Takamatsu-sensei by Hatsumi-sensei.


Agreed. However, you should know full well that this was only one prong of the critics. The other prong is whether the individual ryu-ha are genuine.



> Now, just because the Bujinkan is *NOT* Koryu does *NOT* mean that none of the Bujinkan arts are Koryu. And by "Koryu," this means befitting the definition of Koryu according to that crowd. After people pointed this out to the Koryu folks, the Koryu folks essentially agreed with those assertions. There is simply no way you or they could argue that schools like Kukishin Ryu or Takagi Ryu are *NOT* Koryu....


 
This is a red herring as far as I'm concerned. Mr. Hatsumi hasn't made his name through Kukishin and Takagi Ryu. And most of the people who joined the Bujinkan -- whether they will admit it or not -- first got interested in it because of the "ninjutsu". 

Anyway, no-one's talking about these two ryu-ha. We're concerned with the "ninjutsu" schools, putatively taught by the oh-so-elusive Mr. Toda.



> As for the "ninjutsu arts" under the Bujinkan umbrella, I personally told Dr. Friday (on E-Budo) that I would facilitate an opportunity for him to view Hatsumi-sensei's documents and speak with Hatsumi-sensei. Dr. Friday declined this request. Why? Because, TOGETHER NOW, "he has no interest in ninjutsu arts, and thus has little knowledge to make an assessment." End of story.


Did you offer to pay for his flight and travel expenses too? Why should the burden be on him to come to Japan from Georgia to investigate something that he probably thought was false to start with?



> As an aside, if you did your homework, you would also recognize that a vast number of Ryuha in Japan (across martial arts, flower arranging, tea pouring, etc.) are considered "Kuden." I'm sure the thousands of instructors of Kuden arts would be quite unhappy to hear that their arts can be completely dismissed merely because a group of 100 people who follow a different lineage vehicle say so. BOTH "Kuden" arts and "Koryu" arts are valid. Period.


 
This is laughable. I understand you speak Japanese extremely well, so I'm puzzled why you would use the word Kuden incorrectly. Kuden means "oral transmission" yes, but it's NOT the opposite of Koryu, as you are using the word. I think you are just parroting Sean Askew's article, in which he makes the same error.

Koryu schools contain Kuden as a matter of fact. It refers to the fact that teachings aren't written down. It does NOT mean that evidence of the school's existence wasn't documented. All those tea and ikebana schools you mentioned may teach their techniques orally, but there is still a trail of documentation to prove they existed.

If you don't believe me, check Wayne Muromoto's post here http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showpost.php?p=93248&postcount=11

He writes



> But basically, I take umbrage at "Sean"'s appropriation in his defense of ninjutsu regarding tea. It bugs me because I'm a tea student. Sean stated:
> 
> (snip)
> 
> ...


 
You should have checked your facts were right before you decided to lecture about them. That's what you do in your teaching job isn't it?

After all: If you would not do so in the classroom, then don't do it here on the boards.

Paul


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## kuoshu (Sep 16, 2006)

Don Roley said:


> My advice to Kuosho is to read the two books by Koyama Ryutaro on ninjutsu if you really care about the matter. They are out of print, so I do not like to use them as a source. But if you really want to go around saying that there is no proof about the Togakure ryu, then it seems only natural that you would seek out all the sources written by independent historians before you make such broad statements.....


 
Mr Roley,
As Ron Beaubien has already explained to you on eBudo, this whole Koyama Ryutaro thing is meaningless as proof. So there is reference to some man called Daisuke Nishina. So? Does it say where he lived? Is it even the same man? Does it make any reference to Togakushi or Togakure Ryu? And even if it is the same person, where are the other 32 generations linking him to Mr. Takamatsu?
Paul


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 16, 2006)

One could question the meanfulness of the input of Dr. Friday regarding an issue he himself says he's not qualified to, nor interested in, making an assessment of.


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## Cryozombie (Sep 16, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> Mr bencole,
> Kindly lose the patronising tone. Dont assume that because I am new to martialtalk that I am also new to the topic under discussion.
> Paul



Mr Paul.

Let me help you out here.  New to the discussion or not, you are new to the board, and, I'm sorry to say, are also in violation of the Boards rules with almost all of your posts in this thread.  Perhaps you should read them, if you wish to continue participating here.


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## bencole (Sep 16, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Actually Don, Ben and everyone else, based on his post over on E-Budo I think that Kuosho is really not interested in our opinions and was possibly just trolling here to get us going. http://www.e-budo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31690


 
Thanks, Brian. This reveals a lot and shows me that I really need spend little time trying to argue with Mr. Zelios. I will address three things that he said to me, though.



			
				bencole said:
			
		

> I don't see why people are going crazy over a guy who speaks/reads no Japanese who spent about a year in Japan


 


			
				kuoshu said:
			
		

> Its interesting to note that not so long ago, you were PRAISING Kostas as being someone who still has all of his old materials and some really great stories. His opinion was good enough for you when you used it to discredit SKH, so why are you suddenly trying to trivialise his experiences? Now lets get back the koryu thing.



I do appreciate Chuck's attempts to appropriate my praise of his understanding of the FEELING of training as vindication that he knows what he is talking about in terms of historical authenticity, but his sieve simply don't hold water. 

For the record, I think Chuck had very good movement when he was in the Bujinkan (based on videos that I've seen of him), and I think that he understood well the "feeling" of what Hatsumi-sensei has *ALWAYS* been teaching (despite attempts by Hayes, McCarthy, Roy and others to try to tell everyone that "training was different"). It is clear that if one was paying attention and training properly "back in the day," one could get the essence of the movement that Hatsumi-sensei was trying to impart. Chuck *HAD* that essence, in my personal opinion, and I've stated this publicly before.

Even if one has good movement or an understanding of feeling IN NO WAY MEANS that one also has a handle on history, legitimacy, etc. These are completely different skillsets--CHUCK (and his teacher Charles, whom Chuck quotes as a source) *NEVER* HAD THAT SKILLSET, PERIOD. Innumerable others lack that skillset as well. That's not "insulting" or "patronizing"; it's simple fact.

Just because Chuck never saw anything in Japan to resolve his questions does not mean that he would recognize what he was seeing in the first place or that he knew where to look. Chuck didn't read Japanese, didn't spend his weekend hidden in the National Library searching for obscure sources (like Don Roley has done), and so on. 

It's a long stretch to say that having a knack for movement means having the skills necessary to dig for historical information. The skills are simply different.

Now, I like Chuck. Always have. We've had some very good conversations over the years. 

But one needs to ask why someone who has been gone for over a decade now suddenly feels the need to start howling about the Bujinkan again. If one leaves, leave. Move on. Do what you wish. Create your own art. Climb a mountain. Plant a tree. But get in a debate with members of your former art about authenticity? To what end? To justify the reasons for your leaving? To bring everyone over to your side of the argument and have them leave for the same reason? It ain't gonna happen.

This reasoning makes me question why YOU particularly are here, Paul. You've made it clear that you left the Bujinkan for one reason or another. Why are you here, debating people? What's your goal? To be proved right? Do you enjoy the rush of debate? What is it? It behooves me why you and Chuck both waste your time with people training in an art that you left because you thought was suspect....



			
				bencole said:
			
		

> As for the "ninjutsu arts" under the Bujinkan umbrella, I personally told Dr. Friday (on E-Budo) that I would facilitate an opportunity for him to view Hatsumi-sensei's documents and speak with Hatsumi-sensei. Dr. Friday declined this request. Why? Because, TOGETHER NOW, "he has no interest in ninjutsu arts, and thus has little knowledge to make an assessment." End of story.


 


			
				kuoshu said:
			
		

> Did you offer to pay for his flight and travel expenses too? Why should the burden be on him to come to Japan from Georgia to investigate something that he probably thought was false to start with?


 
My, my. Aren't we demanding? If the guy is a historian of Japanese budo and studies a Koryu, one would HOPE that he OCCASIONALLY goes to Japan. If he is unwilling to spend $30 on train fare during one of these trips in order to "resolve his issues with ninjutsu," then that's his choice. I needn't pay for his trip in order to facilitate his viewing of the documents of interest. Sorry, Paul. You make it sound like I demanded that he fly out that week to resolve things to my satisfaction.  

I was merely trying to facilitate accessing information to resolve his uncertainty on the subject; Dr. Friday demurred. One would think that a scholar of Budo would jump at the chance to see rarely viewed materials; for all he knows, they *COULD BE* authentic!!! Alas, Dr. Friday said that he wasn't interested in the subject matter. End of story.



> Kuden means "oral transmission" yes, but it's NOT the opposite of Koryu, as you are using the word.


 
Did I ever say Kuden and Koryu were opposite? Did I ever say that a Koryu art does not contain Kuden? Nope. In fact, as you pointed out, many Koryu contain Kuden. 

Quoting Wayne Muromoto to me doesn't change the fact that to be classified as a "Koryu" art, the art has to meet certain conditions, but that failure to meet those conditions in no way "taints" or "delegitimizes" the art. That has been the point of both Sean Askew, Luke Molitor, myself and others over the years. (Some Venn diagrams of partially overlapping ovals could help you and others to see what we've been saying.)

I hope this resolves your concerns. I look forward to hearing your reasons for being here, debating with people in an art that you found suspect.

All the best,

-ben


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 16, 2006)

Fascinating that someone who is no longer a part of an *art* (was he ever, who was his teacher) would join a board just to bash that art.  What is even more fascinating is that the said person has nothing but conjecture and heresay to play with in his accusations.  What is also interesting is that he started out in a nice manner but when pointed his conjecture from another board he is on the attack.  Paul, you should know that Don Roley, Ben Cole and others have spent the time, effort and understand the language (both oral and written) to do their learning of this art.  In other words what they say has some merit!  What have you done to merit us considering your opinon?


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## Tengu6 (Sep 16, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Fascinating that someone who is no longer a part of an *art* (was he ever, who was his teacher) would join a board just to bash that art. What is even more fascinating is that the said person has nothing but conjecture and heresay to play with in his accusations. What is also interesting is that he started out in a nice manner but when pointed his conjecture from another board he is on the attack. Paul, you should know that Don Roley, Ben Cole and others have spent the time, effort and understand the language (both oral and written) to do their learning of this art. In other words what they say has some merit! What have you done to merit us considering your opinon?


 
IMO, we all need to make an effort to stop feeding the trolls, people like Ralph and these others go away when they are consistantly ignored, problem is, someone always takes the bait. 

I have no problem with honest questions, but trolls should not be fed.

- markk bush
www.bujinmag.com


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## shinbushi (Sep 16, 2006)

bencole said:


> but I've found that I really don't like the way blogging tools allow me to organize information. Maybe I'm just an idiot, but I've had a lot of difficulty trying to make things fit within folders, etc.  I've got a ton of cool stuff going back to the days of Ninpo-L, but if I cannot figure out a way of organizing them all by theme, it's going to be a complete mess. (If anyone knows WordPress and has some ideas about how to place more than one post below a navigation tool, let me know! Rightben


Ben have your looked into a CMS like http://joomla.org . I use my bulk site for them and It is VERY customizable.


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## Don Roley (Sep 16, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> Mr Roley,
> As Ron Beaubien has already explained to you on eBudo, this whole Koyama Ryutaro thing is meaningless as proof. So there is reference to some man called Daisuke Nishina. So? Does it say where he lived? Is it even the same man? Does it make any reference to Togakushi or Togakure Ryu? And even if it is the same person, where are the other 32 generations linking him to Mr. Takamatsu?
> Paul



And as I responded, it is not conclusive proof, but strong when you consider the way it was brought to light in the 20th century.

There are a lot of schools that come from people, even mythical beings, that obviously they could not have. These things happen in matial arts. Tsukuhara Bokuden supposably was given the secret of swordsmanship in a scroll by the ghost of Minamoto Yoshitsune. The art he is creditied with, the Kashima Shinto ryu is considered a very legit art none the less.

And if you read the books I mentioned by Koyama Ryutaro, you would know that there is more evidence and things that click with the story. Yes, the  Ninshina were known as an important family in what used to be known as Togakure. They backed Kiso Yoshinaka in the Genpei war.

If you really want to say that you dealt with all the facts and reject them, you should make an effort to do your research before doing so. You can read the two books in Japanese by Koyama Ryutaro as well as Ninjutsu no Kenkyu by Yumio Nawa- all of these deal with Hatsumi and the Togakure ryu. When you look over what these historians and researchers have said about the claims and proof of the Togakure ryu, then you might be willing to change your mind. But you really owe it to yourself to check out these books before you claim you can't find any sort of proof.

And you seem to have missed the point of my mention of Kashima Shin ryu. It is a fact that small schools can escape noticed when practiced by only a few people. It does not matter if there is one tradition being practiced, or several if they are all passed down by the smae group of people. If Kunii had died and his resources thrown out or burned before he revealed himself to the world, then there would be no one who would have known they existed. So things can be lost.


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## Floating Egg (Sep 17, 2006)

I think this is a good time to remind everyone of Carl Sagan's Baloney Detection Kit, and I'm not just referring to the people that agree with Kosta. Based on the forum posts that I've read over the years, at Martial Talk, Kutaki, and E-Budo, some prominent Bujinkan members don't value critical thinking as much as they should.

*Baloney Detection Kit

Warning signs that suggest deception. Based on the book by Carl Sagan "The Demon Haunted World". The following are suggested as tools for testing arguments and detecting fallacious or fraudulent arguments: * 

Wherever possible there must be independent confirmation of the facts.

Encourage substantive debate on the evidence by knowledgeable proponents of all points of view.

Arguments from authority carry little weight (in science there are no "authorities").

Spin more than one hypothesis - don't simply run with the first idea that caught your fancy.

Try not to get overly attached to a hypothesis just because it's yours.

Quantify, wherever possible.

If there is a chain of argument every link in the chain must work.

Occam's razor - if there are two hypotheses that explain the data equally well choose the simpler.

Ask whether the hypothesis can, at least in principle, be falsified (shown to be false by some unambiguous test). In other words, it is testable? Can others duplicate the experiment and get the same result?

* Additional issues are:* 

Conduct control experiments - especially "double blind" experiments where the person taking measurements is not aware of the test and control subjects.

Check for confounding factors - separate the variables.

* Common fallacies of logic and rhetoric* 

Ad hominem - attacking the arguer and not the argument.

Argument from "authority".

Argument from adverse consequences (putting pressure on the decision maker by pointing out dire consequences of an "unfavorable" decision).

Appeal to ignorance (absence of evidence is not evidence of absence).

Special pleading (typically referring to god's will).

Begging the question (assuming an answer in the way the question is phrased).

Observational selection (counting the hits and forgetting the misses).

Statistics of small numbers (such as drawing conclusions from inadequate sample sizes).

Misunderstanding the nature of statistics (President Eisenhower expressing astonishment and alarm on discovering that fully half of all Americans have below average intelligence!)

Inconsistency (e.g. military expenditures based on worst case scenarios but scientific projections on environmental dangers thriftily ignored because they are not "proved").

Non sequitur - "it does not follow" - the logic falls down.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc - "it happened after so it was caused by" - confusion of cause and effect.

Meaningless question ("what happens when an irresistible force meets an immovable object?).

Excluded middle - considering only the two extremes in a range of possibilities (making the "other side" look worse than it really is).

Short-term v. long-term - a subset of excluded middle ("why pursue fundamental science when we have so huge a budget deficit?").

Slippery slope - a subset of excluded middle - unwarranted extrapolation of the effects (give an inch and they will take a mile).

Confusion of correlation and causation.

Caricaturing (or stereotyping) a position to make it easier to attack.

Suppressed evidence or half-truths.

Weasel words - for example, use of euphemisms for war such as "police action" to get around limitations on Presidential powers. "An important art of politicians is to find new names for institutions which under old names have become odious to the public"​


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## Cryozombie (Sep 17, 2006)

Yeah... well...

Who is Carl Sagen to give us that list... just some guy who thinks his standards should be followed.

After all if he is an authority on the subject... well...



> Arguments from authority carry little weight



LOL.

Did he shoot himself in th foot with that one?  LOL.​
Sorry... its early and my humor circuts havn't fully switched over from sleep processing mode.


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## Jigoku (Sep 17, 2006)

> But one needs to ask why someone who has been gone for over a decade now suddenly feels the need to start howling about the Bujinkan again. If one leaves, leave. Move on. Do what you wish. Create your own art. Climb a mountain. Plant a tree. But get in a debate with members of your former art about authenticity? To what end? To justify the reasons for your leaving? To bring everyone over to your side of the argument and have them leave for the same reason? It ain't gonna happen.


 
I spent 20 years training and studying the Bujinkan arts. After meeting Kostas and being introduced to the Pammachon movement I left the Bujinkan...the reasons why I left are only important to me but let me make clear that I dont hold any grudge against the Bujinkan or any of its members.
Neither Kostas nor me are howling against the Bujinkan. The origin of this post never was clarified fully, yes partly on e-Budo, but not here until now.
Let me add some facts who could end this debate and put things in a clearer light:

Some Bujinkan guy in Greece (renting his training space from Kostas`and his students, that means teaching BBT in the Pammachon school in Athens) accused Kostas on a greek forum openly that what Kostas teaches now is nothing else than his own version of the Bujinkan.
To clarify this statement Kostas first tried to get somebody involved who trained or trains in both systems and isnt from Greece. And this one would be me. So I wrote a post about the differences between the Bujinkan arts and Pammachon as I see it and it was posted on the Greek forum. Apparently things didnt calm down and the Greek Bujinkan shidoshi-ho involved Kostas former teacher Charles Daniel. To clarify things Kostas wrote this rant that deals primary with his own training history. Quote Kostas:
"This rant has to do with what is tuaght in the Pammachon system, and how it relates to what is today called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu".
Some english guy I never heared of put the whole thing on E-budo.....

Thats it: Indeed Ben we dont neither care about justifying our reasons why we left, nor do we wish to recruit students from the Bujinkan [god beware !!!!!!:barf:  ]
yes we moved on (Kostas much much ahead of me) we climb mountains (especially in Switzerland these days)...
And well first and most we train a lot !!!

Best

Stefan Marcec


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## bencole (Sep 17, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> Neither Kostas nor me are howling against the Bujinkan. The origin of this post never was clarified fully, yes partly on e-Budo, but not here until now.


 
Thanks for the clarification.



			
				Jigoku said:
			
		

> Some Bujinkan guy in Greece (renting his training space from Kostas`and his students, that means teaching BBT in the Pammachon school in Athens) accused Kostas on a greek forum openly that what Kostas teaches now is nothing else than his own version of the Bujinkan.


 
WHO THE HECK CARES!?!

:sigh:

Please email me the name of this "Bujinkan guy in Greece" making these accusations (ben@bushinbooks.com). I think I'd like to speak with him about these threads, his concerns about Chuck, and the _meiwaku_ he has caused people....



> "This rant has to do with what is tuaght in the Pammachon system, and how it relates to what is today called Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu".


 
That may be the original intention, and Chuck certainly reserves the right to defend himself from accusations that he finds suspect, but Chuck certainly did lean into the Bujinkan pretty hard there.

My criticisms of Chuck's statements still stand--there are a lot claims and very little evidence in support of those claims. And now, across several boards, hundreds of hours have been consumed on this topic. We see ill-informed people chirping, "Those are some pretty serious allegations" and we see informed people barking, "What evidence is there behind these allegations?" And so on....

In the end, it's just a lot of wasted time, imo.

Thanks for taking the time to clarify, Stefan. Give my regards to Chuck and tell him he is free to email me whenever he wants to talk. Given the purpose of Pammachon as a vehicle of exploring the thread that ties all martial arts together, I am certain that Chuck would be interested in seeing where Hatsumi-sensei is in his development, just as Hatsumi-sensei would be interested in seeing how Chuck has developed. In the end, we're all climbing the same mountain, you know.

All the best,

-ben

"This moment is a gift. That's why it's called the present."


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## Don Roley (Sep 17, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> Some Bujinkan guy in Greece (renting his training space from Kostas`and his students, that means teaching BBT in the Pammachon school in Athens) accused Kostas on a greek forum openly that what Kostas teaches now is nothing else than his own version of the Bujinkan.



That much I seem to understand. What I do not understand is why Kostas chose to try to drag Hatsumi and his accusation against him into the conversation.

If this was between Kostas and the other guy, then he should not have tried to cover himself by bringing in the matter of the Bujinkan and his thoughts about Hatsumi.


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## Jigoku (Sep 18, 2006)

> That much I seem to understand. What I do not understand is why Kostas chose to try to drag Hatsumi and his accusation against him into the conversation


 
well thats his viewpoint and related to his training history and also concerning the creation of Pammachon....
But ask him yourelf, you are in all those forums and he recently appeared on E-Budo......

Regards

Stefan


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## Don Roley (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> well thats his viewpoint and related to his training history and also concerning the creation of Pammachon....
> But ask him yourelf, you are in all those forums and he recently appeared on E-Budo......
> 
> Regards
> ...



Well, I just did even though he said he would not be responding.

Why did you try to defend his attacks on someone unrelated to the debate if you don't even know his reasons for doing things?


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## Jigoku (Sep 18, 2006)

> Well, I just did even though he said he would not be responding.


 
you dunno, so try.....


[QUOTEWhy did you try to defend his attacks on someone unrelated to the debate if you don't even know his reasons for doing things?][/QUOTE]

I tried to make the intention of the rant clear to everybody...
that`s all.....

why defending ? there is no need to........


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> why defending ? there is no need to........


 
*I do not know about that*.  His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.  It was a low shot and an opinon with no *verifiable* facts in it.  So, if someone does something like that then people in any art that is so attacked would be upset. (especially since the person attacking offers *no proof* of his accusations)


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## Jigoku (Sep 18, 2006)

> His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan.


 

I think I made it clear that Kostas rant was taken from an open greek martial arts forum and planted into the english ninjutsu/ninpo forum by an english bujinkan guy. maybe you guys who feel so threatend by a article about training experiences ask the post-transferrer what his intentions were ?
How much sense does it make to plant this post (who wasnt written for you guys) in a Ninpo section ? 
I just reread the histerical reactions to the claim of the koryu people that they dont recognise bujinkan as koryu a few years ago - almost same story.....
Why not just forget about the whole thing ???
And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)

S.


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## Kreth (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> the reasons why I left are only important to me but let me make clear that I dont hold any grudge against the Bujinkan or any of its members.





Jigoku said:


> And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)


Nothing against the Bujinkan, eh?


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## Cryozombie (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> And go back to our trainings (sorry something that many people in the bujinkan never were/are really known for.........)
> 
> S.



Damn he caught us.  We picked up all our mad skillz from playing Dead or Alive on our playstations.


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## Jigoku (Sep 18, 2006)

> Nothing against the Bujinkan, eh?


 
nope......

but if you feel adressed than you might consider my suggestions


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## Kreth (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> nope......
> 
> but if you feel adressed than you might consider my suggestions


My training's just fine, how about yours (since you have free time to rant about an organization that you have nothing to do with)?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> I think I made it clear that Kostas rant was taken from an open greek martial arts forum and planted into the english ninjutsu/ninpo forum
> 
> Why not just forget about the whole thing ???
> 
> ...


 
Hey, personally I could care less what you guys are doing and I hope that your training is great. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 (I truly mean that)  However, maybe your instructor should think about what he is saying and writing before he puts it out there on the internet.  His post was very disrepectful in the least of Hatsumi Soke. (who was one of his teachers and probably pretty important in his development as a martial artist)  The fault or heat of this argument lands at his feet. (*Kostas*)

I can forget the whole thing.......
(because it was just someone's *opinion* with nothing to back up his claims)

As to the quote above about people in the Bujinkan training.  Well you are just not trying to make any friends here are you.  There are plenty of people who train very, very hard in Budo Taijutsu. (*PLENTY*)  

Good luck in your training and truthfully if you guys can sort this out I would be interested in hearing about your art, rather than hearing about you bashing another art.


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## Jigoku (Sep 18, 2006)

This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...

Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....

Concerning the training; I spent 20 years in the Bujinkan. So I am fully aware that there are good martial artists in the bujinkan but many are sorry to say from my viewpoint not because training is last on their list.....
I saw that everywhere in Europe (Beside Swtzerland I had students in Belgium, Germany and Austria), in the US (2002 I spent some time in California and New Mexiko training and teching) and I saw that in Japan.....

good luck in your training


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...
> 
> Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....
> 
> ...


 
Good luck and take care.:asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 18, 2006)

I truly do mean that I would be interested in hearing about Pammachon.
Maybe you could start another thread in Western Martial Arts regarding it!


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## Koinu (Sep 18, 2006)

Jigoku said:


> This will be my last post on this subject because its leading nowhere...



I quite agree ! Opinions are like @##***** everyone has one but should it be on public view ?



Jigoku said:


> Dont take this personally, please, because its not. (I dont know anything about you and vice versa).....



I won't thanks.



Jigoku said:


> Concerning the training; I spent 20 years in the Bujinkan. So I am fully aware that there are good martial artists in the bujinkan



Well If I had 20 years invested in a Martial art I would still be training with the good ones ! In fact they would be the only ones I would be looking at as role models.



Jigoku said:


> but many are sorry to say from my viewpoint not because training is last on their list.....



So these people bothered you so much that you left instead of continuing your training with the Good Martial artists within the style , Hmmm I confused , sounds like your were to !



Jigoku said:


> I saw that everywhere in Europe (Beside Swtzerland I had students in Belgium, Germany and Austria), in the US (2002 I spent some time in California and New Mexiko training and teching)



Well I am sure that there are many people training for many reasons .
You get out of training what you put in so why are you so worried about the amount of effort others put in to their training ! You stated their are good Martial artist in the Bujinkan so by default they should have been your focus of you attention if we are to take you at your word about your  training ethos.



Jigoku said:


> and I saw that in Japan.....



There are good, bad, talented and not so talented students in every dojo and every style on earth ! Some train as a hobby some train to improve themselves as humans some for Ego and a million other reasons. I for one am glad of this, as a bunch of cloned Swiss watches would to nothing to the flavor of Soke's Budo.
I am so sorry that some of us did not live up to your expectations about why and how we should train 




Jigoku said:


> good luck in your training



I have never needed luck in my training thanks. Just the desire to continue to train with good people and results will take care of themselves .
Good luck with your Mountain climbing !


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## lalom (Sep 18, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I do not know about that*. His opinion as it was read was a blatant attack on Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. It was a low shot and an opinon with no *verifiable* facts in it. So, if someone does something like that then people in any art that is so attacked would be upset. (especially since the person attacking offers *no proof* of his accusations)


 
Was this an opinion?  Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there?  Just a question for my understanding.  But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?


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## Koinu (Sep 18, 2006)

lalom said:


> Was this an opinion?  Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there?  Just a question for my understanding.  But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?



If there are any LEO's on here I am sure that they will tell you when you are investigating an incident and talking to 10 witnesses you will get 10 versions of the same event. So it matters not if he were there it is STILL only his opinion of what he thinks went on !!!

Ps sorry for the errors in my post above I was trying to post while playing with my 3 month old and can't find the edit button.


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## heretic888 (Sep 18, 2006)

lalom said:


> Was this an opinion? Wasn't the original author of this rant indeed saying he was there? Just a question for my understanding. But if so (he was there) does he need to post proof if he was present?


 
Much of the claims the individual in question made lacked supporting evidence, actually. One of the stronger accusations made was that Hatsumi was "making up" the ryuha kata as we went along to keep his Western students. In other words, that they were not from the densho and kuden he inherited from Takamatsu.

However, it should be pointed out that absolutely no evidence was given in support of this and, as the author pointed out, he never learned the ryuha kata so it was just an assumption on his part. In fact, his reasoning seemed to be purely self-serving and self-promoting on this point in that his rationale for Hatsumi "making up" the ryuha kata was that he already learned all Hatsumi "had to offer" in the martial arts.

Point in fact, if Hatsumi was not making up the ryuha kata then the author had, in fact, not learned everything had to offer in budo. So, it is important the author keeps this impression afloat, even if he has zero evidence to support it (unless you consider subjectivity to be "evidence" these days).

It needn't be pointed out that, even from an outsider's view, the author's ego is palpable here.

Laterz.


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## kuoshu (Sep 20, 2006)

First of all, I have not "bashed" the Bujinkan. I've said repeatedly that my problem is with the claimed history of the "ninja" schools. I've gone out of my way on forums like eBudo to stress that this does not mean the arts are ineffective or have no value.



			
				bencole said:
			
		

> My, my. Aren't we demanding? If the guy is a historian of Japanese budo and studies a Koryu, one would HOPE that he OCCASIONALLY goes to Japan. If he is unwilling to spend $30 on train fare during one of these trips in order to "resolve his issues with ninjutsu," then that's his choice. I needn't pay for his trip in order to facilitate his viewing of the documents of interest. Sorry, Paul. You make it sound like I demanded that he fly out that week to resolve things to my satisfaction.
> 
> I was merely trying to facilitate accessing information to resolve his uncertainty on the subject; Dr. Friday demurred. One would think that a scholar of Budo would jump at the chance to see rarely viewed materials; for all he knows, they *COULD BE* authentic!!! Alas, Dr. Friday said that he wasn't interested in the subject matter. End of story.


 
Look at it from Dr Friday's point of view. Mr Hatsumi's evidence had already been assessed by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and/or Shinkokain when he tried to gain admission. The experts on those organisations did not believe his evidence. Therefore what could Dr Friday expect to find that these evaluators couldn't? He was probably humble enough to admit that if Japanese experts in authenticating schools had already rejected the proof in the 60s or 70s, and they knew more than he does, then he could not expect to find anything that they couldn't.

Paul


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## kuoshu (Sep 20, 2006)

bencole said:
			
		

> I am certain that Chuck would be interested in seeing where Hatsumi-sensei is in his development, just as Hatsumi-sensei would be interested in seeing how Chuck has developed. In the end, we're all climbing the same mountain, you know.


I am genuinely impressed to see you saying this, because I have never seen you say something as generous about the other men who've left Mr Hatsumi and teach their own systems. Do you also feel that the Jinenkan, Toshindo and whatever Alex Mordine is now teaching are also climbing the same mountain as the Bujinkan?

Paul


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## Don Roley (Sep 20, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> Mr Hatsumi's evidence had already been assessed by the Nihon Kobudo Kyokai and/or Shinkokain when he tried to gain admission.



Nope. Hatsumi was asked to join. He declined. Had he tried to join he would have had to lay out his sources, but that never came to pass.


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## bencole (Sep 20, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> I am genuinely impressed to see you saying this, because I have never seen you say something as generous about the other men who've left Mr Hatsumi and teach their own systems. Do you also feel that the Jinenkan, Toshindo and whatever Alex Mordine is now teaching are also climbing the same mountain as the Bujinkan?


 
There are plenty of people who have left the Bujinkan who retain my respect as martial artists and as men: Doron Navon, Quintin Chambers, Jeff Sherwin, Stephan Marcec, Chuck Dervenis, and so on. Martial arts are all about finding what *YOU* need.

The problems I have expressed with some others who have left the Bujinkan is their actions after leaving or their reason for leaving.

(1) Some, despite supposedly going their own way, continue to emphasize their relationship with Hatsumi-sensei in trying to sell their "new way." If it's not Bujinkan, it's not Bujinkan period. Don't say that you are teaching Bujinkan, when, in fact, you are teaching some chimera art. If you want to do some chimera, or train completely in another art, then call it a chimera and go for it!!! You have my complete support! But don't call it Bujinkan.

(2) Some have shown through their actions or words that they lack integrity. Some have outright falsified their training experiences or knowledge. That's a no-no no matter who you are, imo.

(3) I personally think it is stupid to stop training in an art merely because you don't think others deserve their rank or don't understand certain things. Martial arts are a personal pursuit. To stop training in an art merely because someone else doesn't see the same things you see in your own training is kinda silly, imo. But that's just my take.

I'm certain that if you were to go back and look at my comments/arguments regarding particular individuals over the past decade, you will find that they map onto one of these three core ideas.

Hope that helps!

-ben


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## Bigshadow (Sep 20, 2006)

bencole said:


> I'm certain that if you were to go back and look at my comments/arguments regarding particular individuals over the past decade, you will find that they map onto one of these three core ideas.




Great post Ben!  Although, I haven't been around the Bujinkan as long as you,  I would definitely agree that they all fall into those three core ideas.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Sep 20, 2006)

kuoshu said:


> I am genuinely impressed to see you saying this, because I have never seen you say something as generous about the other men who've left Mr Hatsumi and teach their own systems. Do you also feel that the Jinenkan, Toshindo and whatever Alex Mordine is now teaching are also climbing the same mountain as the Bujinkan?
> 
> Paul


 
I look at it this way - it's a bit like discussing the differences between Coke and Pepsi and all the different clones and variations thereof. Yes, there are differences, but at the same time there's a bottle of whisky standing there at the sidelines just laughing and shaking its head at the whole thing.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 20, 2006)

bencole said:


> There are plenty of people who have left the Bujinkan who retain my respect as martial artists and as men: Doron Navon, Quintin Chambers, Jeff Sherwin, Stephan Marcec, Chuck Dervenis, and so on. Martial arts are all about finding what *YOU* need.
> 
> The problems I have expressed with some others who have left the Bujinkan is their actions after leaving or their reason for leaving.
> 
> ...


 
Nice post Ben!


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