# whats the theory?



## muayThaiPerson (Sep 29, 2002)

i was looking into knife arts and wondering how could u defend agains a knife. u cant come in contact with it, so hows fighting without even getting hit?
this is not a bash, i just want to know the theory behind knife art.
is it move back and look for an opening, spinning?what?

thanks


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## redfive (Sep 29, 2002)

Timing, timing , timing, it's all in good timing. If you don't wont to come in contact with the knife, then you run. And thats not a bad idea at times. If you have to face the knife, then you do move in and out and around. And just like boxers get punched, theres a great chance that you will get cut, but through good training you learn to minimize the cuts or thrusts and protect vital areas. It's not a no win senario, like most people seem to think. They just fear what they don't understand. The majority of people who pull knives realy have not a clue on how to realy use it. They are more of a danger to themselves then others, especialy if he or she pulls it on a trained knifefighter. Your main focus is on the knife, but you still punch, kick, grab,lock and make use of your resources, such as throwing objects and useing items for distractions. You must move though, always move, constant motion. If he wont's to cut you, make him work for it. Alot of people just stand there turnig themselves into a big cutting block.
But as with all arts, there is not just one way. Many of the knife systems have much to offer, just whach out for the Navy seal bad *** special ops people. Who take out three page adds about how they can make you into a knife Grand Super Master in less then four hours.
                                 Your friend in the arts, Redfive


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## Cthulhu (Sep 30, 2002)

Look into Sayoc Kali-silak...a lot of empty-hand versus blade.

www.sayoc.com 


Cthulhu


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## Yari (Oct 1, 2002)

Most japanese style have the center of movement emphesized on the body.

I think to have a chance against a knife, the movement has to be on the contact point; either mentally or physically. You move more like the boxer than a (example) kendoist.

/Yari


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## sammy3170 (Oct 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by muayThaiPerson _
> 
> *i was looking into knife arts and wondering how could u defend agains a knife. u cant come in contact with it, so hows fighting without even getting hit?
> this is not a bash, i just want to know the theory behind knife art.
> ...



If you have to defend against a knife attack don't piss fart around moving and parrying as while you are trying to avoid the knife getting a good solid bunch of strikes in is very difficult.  

Seize the weapon bearing limb and don't let go and expect to get cut. 

After you have control you can move, strike, lock or what ever from there but life isn't like the movies where you can zip around and move like Jet Li.    You mustn't go in expecting not to get hurt.   I'm no expert but I've seen many different ways certain styles deal with such things and some are just suicidal.    

You may not be able to grab it straight off but seizing the weapon bearing limb should be your primary objective.

Cheers
Sammy


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## old_sempai (Oct 3, 2002)

:asian: :asian: 

The following may seem dated, but never the less quite valid, and I cannot take credit for this post.  I copied into a file from a previous Martial Talk post, but for the moment can't remember which one.

Col. Fairbairn 
quote: Originally posted by Don Rearic What are your views on this? I think it is safe to say that regardless of skill in any empty hand Art, it's not really a situation you want to be in. Knives and Guns tend to trump the best laid battle plans when the battle plan does not include a weapon.

Let me put in a rather long excerpt from "The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting" at  [url]http://www.selbstverteidigung.org/images/cobra.html[/url] as part of this discussion. The material in red was added by the editor of the text, William L. Cassidy. To find this material search for the term "unarmed" in the page; the internal links are broken. Summarizing, the author says categorically: IF YOU ARE UN-ARMED - "THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

From The Fairbairn Manual of Knife Fighting:

DIS-ARMING A KNIFE FIGHTING OPPONENT??

We are frequently being told of Judo Experts who claim that they can dis-arm a man attacking them with a knife without the aid of any weapon - in other words - with their bare hands. Also we have a copy of a Military Training Bulletin, in which the author lays down how the recruit should be instructed to do the same thing.

It is apparent that neither the Judo Expert nor the writer of the Bulletin have ever seen an expert knife fighter in action or even at practice, otherwise, they would know that had they attempted to dis-arm him, they would, in a matter of a split second, be minus a few fingers or an ear - that is, if they were so fortunate as to be still alive.

We have no objection to the Judo Expert making this statement or to him continuing to teach his STAGE DIS-ARM but we get "very hot under the collar" when those responsible for the training of our young men for Combat duty, publish Training Manuals in which they state and show photographs of a man being dis-armed by an Instructor with his bare hands.

NOTE: IF UN-ARMED, THERE IS NO DEFENCE AGAINST AN OPPONENT ATTACKING WITH A KNIFE".

Scientific studies have shown that the recorded speed of a forward snap-type strike originating from waist-level is 5.7 to 9.8 meters per second, or approximately 19 to 32 feet per second. The hand reaches maximum speed shortly before the arm is fully extended, and travels faster on the return stroke than on the forward stroke. 

Based on the above, it can be estimated that it takes one-sixth of a second or less to execute a snap-type knife strike. This assumes an average speed of 32 feet per second and a total distance of 62 inches.

Stress reaction time to any stimulus is approximately one-fifth of a second.

It is for the above reasons, among others, that we state there is no means by which an unarmed man can defend against a knife fighter.  Still, it must be acknowledged that there may come unfortunate circumstances in which one has no other choice but to make an attempt. In such unpleasant cases, usually played out at the end of an alley or in confinement, the following guidelines may be of some small value if there is no place to run and no place to hide:

1. Obtain the advantage of distance. Stay as far away from the blade as circumstances permit.

2. Move continually. Stay in motion, especially with multiple attackers. Move at least three feet in each second.

3. Concentrate on the knife. Do not be fooled by watching the attacker's eyes, hands, or any other part of his or her body. Pay attention to the knife.

4. Pay attention to timing. Semi-skilled and crude attackers manipulate knives according to an individual rhythm, usually of a very rapid nature. Be aware of this.

5. Do not close with your attacker. If you have no means of escape, allow him to close with you.

6. Evade the weapon before you counterattack. First get out of the way of the blade. If you must absorb cuts, try to avoid absorbing them with your arms and hands by using your feet. Note - this is "last ditch" advice!

7. Attack the forearm and the wrist simultaneously. Do not attack the hand. Attempt to immobilize the hand that holds the knife as rapidly as possible, then break the hand, wrist, elbow or arm. Strike the bridge of your attacker's nose with your head.

8. Never go to the ground with an attacker. Try to stay on your feet at all costs.

9. Do not "protect" wounds. If you are attacked by surprise and stabbed, and you cannot run, do not shrink back or "cover" wounds since this will result in your arms and hands becoming vulnerable. At this stage, your arms and hands are your only means of defense. IMMEDIATELY counterattack the attacker's knife arm, or, in the alternative, "climb" your attacker using the remaining power in your legs. Be advised that most wounds result in a weakness in the legs, arising from the body's natural response to loss of blood.

10. Do not wrap a coat around your arm. Do try to find an expedient weapon, such as a belt or a stick.

Note: This issue has been studied for more than twenty-five years and include the experienced attentions some of the finest instructors in the world. Please be assured that no martial arts school or technique can offer a predictable method of defense against a knife, and most of the techniques and methods one sees are suicidal against a knife fighter.

:asian: :asian:


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## redfive (Oct 3, 2002)

I hate to use the phrase "Old School" but Fairbairn and Col. Rex Applegate are of the WWII eara of thinking and training. Don't get me wrong, I have all there books and knives, but as stated they took the word and skill of a judo expert. They did not get the word of a Filipino knife fighter. In the 40s through the late 50s there was not alot known about knife fighting systems, let alone the skill level of Filipino systems. Most of Fairborns work came from past WWI hand to knife and the hand to knife fights of the Pacific Islands against the Japanese. The military had very little training in knife fighting at that time. But we have come along way. I hate it when people say that unarmed against a knife is a no win situation. It's not. I have trained with W. Hock Hochheim since the early 90s. and he has tried to pound this into peoples heads for years. You can win, you can disarm a man with a knife, you can take a man with a knife down to the ground. Yes you most likely will be cut, but there is an equal chance that you won't. especially if it's your average Joe Blow on the street. One who has had none or little training with a knife. Facing a knife is not the end of the world but you must know how and have realistic training. Don't take judo to learn knive fighting.If I wonted to learn tactical shooting, I would not take a knife fighting class. It's common sence. But let it be known that I have a very high regard for Fairbairn and Applegate, but with all things there is an evolution. If you realy wont to ask this question, Unarmed against a Knife, then go to HocksCQC.com and ask Hock. He has done all the research, and has faced a knife while empty handed.
                        Your friend in the arts, Redfive


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2002)

My Personal Experience with knives,


First when I had a knife on me I never had the chance to pull it and use it if he was coming. It was not West side Story where he brandished it and let me get mine out like 'Thriller'.

Yes, I have taken knives away from people, and I would have to say that they were either totally untrained or just knew enough to get themselves hurt. The others I used keys on a rope I carried, I also used other improvised weapons.


My theory, is to avoid the blade control it if I can, and to make him pay for getting into my zone. This assumes that I cannot run away. Believe me it takes a real long time to explain to the police why you have taken away a knife from a group of people, especially as that is the moment the police pull in.  If you have the option do not be there and be elsewhere.

Have a nice day everyone

Rich


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## sammy3170 (Oct 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> 
> *I hate to use the phrase "Old School" but Fairbairn and Col. Rex Applegate are of the WWII eara of thinking and training. Don't get me wrong, I have all there books and knives, but as stated they took the word and skill of a judo expert. They did not get the word of a Filipino knife fighter. In the 40s through the late 50s there was not alot known about knife fighting systems, let alone the skill level of Filipino systems. Most of Fairborns work came from past WWI hand to knife and the hand to knife fights of the Pacific Islands against the Japanese. The military had very little training in knife fighting at that time. But we have come along way. I hate it when people say that unarmed against a knife is a no win situation. It's not. I have trained with W. Hock Hochheim since the early 90s. and he has tried to pound this into peoples heads for years. You can win, you can disarm a man with a knife, you can take a man with a knife down to the ground. Yes you most likely will be cut, but there is an equal chance that you won't. especially if it's your average Joe Blow on the street. One who has had none or little training with a knife. Facing a knife is not the end of the world but you must know how and have realistic training. Don't take judo to learn knive fighting.If I wonted to learn tactical shooting, I would not take a knife fighting class. It's common sence. But let it be known that I have a very high regard for Fairbairn and Applegate, but with all things there is an evolution. If you realy wont to ask this question, Unarmed against a Knife, then go to HocksCQC.com and ask Hock. He has done all the research, and has faced a knife while empty handed.
> Your friend in the arts, Redfive *



I whole heartedly agree. When I can(not that often unfortunately due to my Kempo training) I train with Glenn Zwiers, the Australasian head of the SFCA and from all of the different styles I have seen, what Hock offers as far as knives go is second to none and way way ahead of most.

Just some thoughts 
Cheers
Sammy


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## Despairbear (Oct 4, 2002)

Speaking of the manuals by Fairbairn and Col. Rex Applegate let us not forget that even when these gentelmen say there is no defence aginst a well trained knife fighter they also go about telling the reader how to defend aginst one. Something else to consiter when looking at unarmed vs. armed styles: never in the history of warfair has an unarmed army charged the field and overtaken a well trained and well armed army. Weapons are a force multiplyer, even an untrained person with a knife can get lucky and kill you with one thrust to the abdomen. The chances of a untrained person punching you in the abdomen and killing you are very very very very slim.


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## Shinzu (Oct 4, 2002)

one thing i would like to point out is that you should be in some sort of side stance.  this way most of your vital organs will not "open" to your attacker.  you want to give him as little room as possible.


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## arnisandyz (Oct 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Shinzu _
> 
> *one thing i would like to point out is that you should be in some sort of side stance.
> 
> ...


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## arnisandyz (Oct 7, 2002)

RE: stances

If you have time to go into a stance (you probably won't)  we have found in training, what works best for us something that will give you good mobility.

I am not saying a side stance is wrong,  if you can make it work, then do it.  We have found the side stance not mobile enough to deal with the movements of the knife.  Cthulhu (who trains with us) comes from an Okinawan-te background which utilzes this type of stance.  Perhaps he can enlighten us on his findings when using this stance against a knife.  I haven't seen him doing it in a while.


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## Cthulhu (Oct 7, 2002)

Horse stance advantages for knife use:  

1) strong base
2) smaller (thinner) target
3) takes some of the targets out of range

Disadvantages of horse stance:

1) strong base allows for very limited mobility
2) depending on what side is forward, either the weapon is too far away from the opponent, or your live hand is completely removed from the picture.
3) makes it too easy for the opponent to circle to your back.

To me, the biggest disadvantages are 1 and 2...3 is really a result of 1.  Having the knife in your rear hand in a horse/side stance puts it too far away to be of any use except for full swinging arcs or thrusts.  Far too telegraphic.  If you have the blade in your front hand in a horse/side stance, your live hand is so far back, it's useless, limiting your upper body defenses to your knife hand alone.

The *best* stance to use is to briefly drop into a sprinter's starting crouch and then take off running using Carl Lewis Jutsu.



Cthulhu


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## Shinzu (Oct 7, 2002)

i was not speaking about a horse stance, but more of a fighting stance.  if someone approaches me i am not going to meet them head on.

shifting to a fighting stance gives me greater mobility than standing in a "ready stance".  it is much easier for me to slide away or dodge to the sides.  if my feet are planted with equal weight, it will make it harder for me to avoid the attack.  just my opinion.


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## Yari (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Horse stance advantages for knife use:
> 
> ...




Up on the toes, then the horse stance (which it wouldn't be then), would be better.

I usally tell my students to let there butt hang "out". By this I mean the weight center is push out back, and you go up on your toes.

But I would meet the oppenent front to front, not sideways. That gives the more possiblities of movement, and that's what I want when meeting a person wielding a knife, and the usage of both arms.

/Yari


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## arnisandyz (Oct 8, 2002)

Shinzu,

Thanks for the clarification, fighting stance sounds much better to me than side-stance.  For the most part, the system i train is primaily moving in and out of different "fighting stances" .  We don't have any formal stances (ie: front stance, back stance, horse stance, pigeon toed stance, etc.) , instead we train footwork, which puts you in certain positions that may be considered some type of stance, but it is always moving.

As far as meeting someone head on or toe to toe, it could be a viable technique if it is used to draw a committed attack (leave your centerline open as bait as to invite an attack),  a dangereous game, but at least you have some idea the attack may go there.  I think they call it ABD , attack by drawing in JKD, we call it baiting in FCS.  My partner Aldon elaborated on this in a Wing chun vs FMA trapping post.  Giving centerline to elicit a response that you can act on.


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