# Real or not?



## Klemen Bobnar (Jul 12, 2012)

Hi, just a question for all who have a genuine taiji teacher. 

Here are some things about my teacher, and you tell me if he is the real deal.

- forms he teaches: Yang: 24 Beijing + no repetition form, where you basically do each movement once, to practice flow
                                    108 Yang long form
                                    48 form - 5 schools, movements adapted to Yang style
                                    42 form - 5 schools, each preformed as in original forms

                           Chen: xin jia yi lu, xin jia er lu, lao jia yi lu, lao jia er lu, chen competition form

                           + weapons: sword(jian), staff and fan, both styles

- wouldn't tell exactly who he studied from, only that he did study in China

- wouldn't show applications, because, quote: "We would have a student less."

- did show push hands, though

- he does teach applications, but only after all the forms, so after 9 years of training, but I don't know any students who have gotten that far

- when asked to show the new chen fast form, said no but then said that I would see it (eventually I guess)

- the 108 form as he teaches it, contains a fast kick where you kick the palm of your hand, called double lotus I think

- so far I've  learnt the 24 form only, he tought us the moves first, and at the end of the year he tought us where our eyes look and when to inhale or exhale

So, real or not real?


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## clfsean (Jul 12, 2012)

Sounds... odd... to me.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2012)

It all depends on where your teacher trained ans who your teacher trainied with and possibly if those he trained with consider him/her a student

- Beijing 24 form is not from the Yang family it was developed by the Chinese Sports Commission in 1956 and Li Tanji (mostly a XIngyi guy) has a lot to do with it
- 48 form is and is not adapted to Yang style, it is made up of Sun, Yang, Chen, Wu and Hao style and is a compitition form
- The 42 form does not come from teh Yang family either, it comes from Li Deyin who is the Nephew of Li Tanji

None of this means he is or is not legitamate

More later, must dash, family emergency

-


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## oaktree (Jul 12, 2012)

Your information is just to vague to really go on for me. 

 He says he knows these forms, well.....maybe he does know them all maybe he doesn't. Maybe he is really good maybe he isn't. 
  It's not unheard of for someone to know Xinja and Laojia when one of the Chen family members comes down to teach for seminar one day is Laojia and one is Xinjia. Again it depends on how long he has been doing it. I had one teacher and all he does is Laojia and he goes to Chen Village every year and when his teacher in Chen village asks him what he wants to learn he just says Laojia, I think he does know Xinjia but he just likes Laojia.
Last month Chen Bing came down he taught Laojia, Xin Jia and Broadsword. 

I don't know why he won't tell you who he studied with that is a little strange. My teachers have no problem telling me who they trained with and stories or things their teachers say.

I have had my teacher show me some application to help illustrate why the form functions the way it does. If your teacher chooses to teach application after the student shows proper form, tuishou and dedication then thats his right, just like if you do not want to wait then you can find someone who is more open.

In Chen Laojia there exist a kick known as Double White Lotus Shuang Bai Lian&#21452;&#30333;&#33714; you hit it with your palm, I don't know Yang but who knows maybe your teacher likes that. Sounds
So I really don't know if he is real or not, somethings are a little strange like not saying who is teacher is, but *you as the student* need to research more on what a good Taijiquan teacher looks like. If his form looks bad, even the wind blows him over in Tuishou then maybe he is not real, if his form is good, he has good tuishou, can express fa jin, knows application he might be real.


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## mograph (Jul 12, 2012)

Klemen Bobnar said:


> - wouldn't show applications, because, quote: "We would have a student less."


This concerns me, as he could always just uproot the student, push him away, knock the wind out of him or throw him on his butt. He doesn't have to injure the student to show applications, and he can _show_ applications without _teaching_ them. 

Based on that, I have doubts.:hmm:


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## blindsage (Jul 12, 2012)

Our Yang form has a fast kick to the palm, but my sifu openly talks about all of his teachers and does applications in every class.  On the other hand, I can understand the idea that showing applications would drive away students.  Just about everyone in my school who teaches, and I 've had this experience as well, has a story about someone who got angry when they were shown applications and said something like *"We're doing Taiji, not martial arts!!!"*


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## Klemen Bobnar (Jul 12, 2012)

> can express fa jin



well, one of the advanced students told me that he did demonstrate fa-jin, but then, how would he know?

could someone who has never seen fa-jin before except on video know that it is real just by seeing it, or then again by feeling it?

I'm thinking i should just go up front and ask him if he's real. But he problably won't give me a straight answer.

And how do you question someone if they are good at what they've been doing for 20-some years, preferably in the least insulting way?


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## oaktree (Jul 12, 2012)

Well is your teacher demostrating like this in his Chen Taijiquan?





If someone asked one of my teacher's if they are real he would reply "sure" or "Yes I teach Taijiquan" another one would say something like "Let's find out" and after putting you in painful Qinna holds will ask you if it is real enough for you. 

If you ask the teacher if he is good what is he suppose to say? "No I suck and you should stop training with me." Watch the teacher's form compared to the lineage holders. 
Is his form smooth, does he root and sink, does he follow Yang Cheng Fu's 10 points, is there tension, is his Kua closed etc etc. 

Someone who has 20 something years in Taijiquan should have all of this. Watch the students are they following the above does he correct them, when they do Tui shou are they using more muscle over mechanics?
Are they easily off balance? I do not expect someone just starting out to have great Tui shou but I would expect one who had some training under his belt to have some level of ability in it. 

I really can not answer something like if he is real or not because you have not provided much to go on. Something things are a litte strange but I do not know if he was joking when he said he does not teach application because there will be no more students and if that meant they will get hurt joking or not or noone is interested in it which old ladies or hippies are not interested in.  Maybe he doesn't tell his teacher because he feels it is of no concern. I know Park Bok Nam asked about his teacher's teacher and his teacher Lu Shui Tien said it won't help you if you know. 

Maybe if i knew that one of my students was asking about my credentials on a public forum I might be cautious on what I share with him during training.


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## mograph (Jul 12, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Maybe if i knew that one of my students was asking about my credentials on a public forum I might be cautious on what I share with him during training.


Oooh ... BURN!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2012)

oaktree said:


> Maybe if i knew that one of my students was asking about my credentials on a public forum I might be cautious on what I share with him during training.



That bit right, not asking questions but talking about a style I trained on a public forum got all lessons to stop, not taiji. 

If the sifu is from China and trained in China it may be best he does not know



oaktree said:


> If someone asked one of my teacher's if they are real he would reply "sure" or "Yes I teach Taijiquan" another one would say something like "Let's find out" and after putting you in painful Qinna holds will ask you if it is real enough for you.



Ask my sifu that and he will likely say of course I&#8217;m real, I&#8217;m a real live person, or something to that effect&#8230; you would get no free qinna lessons



oaktree said:


> If you ask the teacher if he is good what is he suppose to say? "No I suck and you should stop training with me." Watch the teacher's form compared to the lineage holders.



Ask my sifu that question and if he does not know you very well or take you seriously he will tell you  &#8220;no, I&#8217;m not very good&#8221;&#8230; he may even tell you he does not know any Taiji at all


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 12, 2012)

Klemen Bobnar said:


> Hi, just a question for all who have a genuine taiji teacher.
> 
> Here are some things about my teacher, and you tell me if he is the real deal.
> 
> ...



Let me finish my original post.

Lineage can make a difference in Taiji so not knowing who your Shigung is does not help

All the forms he/she claims to know does not help either. 

I am traditionally trained in Yang style and my shigung is Tung Ying Chieh and I think I have a pretty good idea as far as Yang style goes and its uses. I have also been trained in Chen style by a member of the Chen family (silk reeling and the 19 form) I also know Loajia Yilu and I have been trained in Chen push hands but here is the thing, I don't know Chen style, at least not well enough to teach it.

Now I cold co to China and train with Li Deyin and learn a lot of Taiji that would be real and effective but not traditional. I could go to Canada and train with Liang Shouyu and the Yang would be effective but not traditional but his Chen is likely both traditional and effective. I had a sifu once that could have taught me hundreds of forms form various styles but it was not effective, however some were traditional.

Basically I am saying after 20 years in Taijiquan, 17 Yangshi.... With what you have posted.... I really can't answer your question.


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 12, 2012)

mograph said:


> This concerns me, as he could always just uproot the student, push him away, knock the wind out of him or throw him on his butt. He doesn't have to injure the student to show applications, and he can _show_ applications without _teaching_ them.
> 
> Based on that, I have doubts.:hmm:


I think he was just joking, ans isn't ready to reveal applications until some basics have been instilled. 
Sean


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## Klemen Bobnar (Jul 15, 2012)

Thanks for all of your answers, I'm leaning more towards real. I just wanted a 2nd or a 3rd opinion.

Now, can someone erase this thread?  I don't like it when this thread jumps up in the results when I search my name on Google. 

Also, can you change your username? It's not mentioned in the FAQ...


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## GaryR (Aug 3, 2012)

I'ts not that black and white, but for combat, I would definately lean towards--NOT real.  I don't care what your lineage is, there are lineage holders who can't fight worth a damn.  

No apps until after 9 years of forms?  Are you joking, that is beyond rediculous. "Applications" are only a beggining, you have to test your material real time, train more like you fight; in order for your material to have a better shot at combat viability.  

Not to say you may not be learning good stuff...you just may have to go elsewhere to learn how to really apply it, I would suggest sooner than later, not good to have the yin, and not the yang.

Best,

G



Klemen Bobnar said:


> Thanks for all of your answers, I'm leaning more towards real. I just wanted a 2nd or a 3rd opinion.
> 
> Now, can someone erase this thread?  I don't like it when this thread jumps up in the results when I search my name on Google.
> 
> Also, can you change your username? It's not mentioned in the FAQ...


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