# Down block defense against shoot attack



## FearlessFreep (Jun 4, 2008)

All,  I'm going to be involved in helping a Tae Kwon Do class with practical applications to form motions.  So I was just brainstorming some different ideas about (modifications to) existing motions that could be practical although not necessarily what is considered

One early motion is called a "down block"  it's basic 'official' usage is a block against a strike mostly to the thigh as you bring the arm down to use the forearm to block. ( it can also provide some midline defense against lower strikes)

What ran through my mind was to use the sweeping motion of the arm to sweep the arms of a single-leg or double leg (shoot) takedown attempt, basically to redirect the grab before you can get the hands behind the thighs

So I thought I'd ask those who train this a lot of that seemed a reasonable defense against a trained or untrained attacker.

Note 1- I have had some BJJ training so some concepts of shoots and sprawls is familiar to me

Note 2 - I'm willing to take seriously mechanical modifications to what it normally done with a down block as we often consider modifications to form motions for sake of practical application

Thanks


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## Ybot (Jun 4, 2008)

I'm not convinced that a downblock would help in sweeping away the hands on a shot.  If they are reaching that much then they are too far away anyway.  Perhaps if the arm movement is included with a sprawl it could be interpreted as a catch, and could be used to gain an underhook.  Truth is that I'm not much of a wrestler, and am bad at defending these things, so I hope you get some better suggestions.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 4, 2008)

Ybot said:


> I'm not convinced that a downblock would help in sweeping away the hands on a shot.  If they are reaching that much then they are too far away anyway.



True, if the hands are close to the body because you're trying to get the shoulder in as well (basically hit with the shoulder at the same time as the hands make the grab to  the thigh(s)), then the hands aren't going to be out exposed where the can be easily swept aside like that


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## jks9199 (Jun 4, 2008)

Ybot said:


> I'm not convinced that a downblock would help in sweeping away the hands on a shot.  If they are reaching that much then they are too far away anyway.  Perhaps if the arm movement is included with a sprawl it could be interpreted as a catch, and could be used to gain an underhook.  Truth is that I'm not much of a wrestler, and am bad at defending these things, so I hope you get some better suggestions.


Well... if you hammer the side of their head as their coming in, it'll probably have a detrimental effect on their shoot...  

I'd say give it a try for real, and see how it works.  That'll tell you better than guessing here will. 

Though I can't help but wonder just how much of a modification you can make and still call it a down block...


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## pesilat (Jun 4, 2008)

It can be used but another aspect that also helps is the front stance - at least I seem to remember doing the front stance with the downward block in the first form I learned in TKD but, admittedly, I've been out of TKD for quite a while so my memory may be hazy.

Anyway, if you sweep the incoming arm off line then that's one way to counter the shoot. Another, though, is to drop your center with the front stance (might have to modify it to get deeper in some cases) now use your "block" arm to under hook one of the attacker's arms (usually the one nearest your "block" arm). This prevents or, at least, delays him closing his hands around your thighs. Once there, you can pivot off line and end up in good position for a lot of things. The first that comes to mind is a throw we call "puter kepala" (head turning) in Silat - Aikido calls it "kaiten nage."

Here's a video of me teaching the throw (though from a punch not from a shoot) at a seminar: 



 and here's video of an Aikidoka doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1LQDvf3r4A&feature=related

But at the position you're in after hooking that arm you can do sweeps, chokes, throws, locks or strikes.

This is a little off-topic but tangential to the bigger picture you're talking about: A common technique I show for the downward block when I'm talking to people with a TKD background and I'm helping them understand how to find their own applications in the material they already know is this scenario. Your opponent has launched a straight kick at your knee - either a front kick or a side kick. You step into the front stance - that alone is sufficient to protect your knee against that type of attack and that means your "block" can do something else. Use your "block" to strike the kicking leg. I like to aim for points in the thigh - hit hard enough and I can "charlie horse" their thigh and affect their mobility.

Hope that makes sense.

Mike


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## D Dempsey (Jun 4, 2008)

pesilat said:


> Here's a video of me teaching the throw (though from a punch not from a shoot) at a seminar:
> 
> 
> 
> and here's video of an Aikidoka doing it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1LQDvf3r4A&feature=related


I learned the same technique in combat sambo and I've had a decent degree of success using it to stop takedowns.  With that being said you can't really do it statically like you would with a downward block because you step around you opponent.  It's worth a shot though.

Nice vids BTW.


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 4, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Well... if you hammer the side of their head as their coming in, it'll probably have a detrimental effect on their shoot...



Yeah, that was my secondary thought after I posted... try to hit the neck as well.



> I'd say give it a try for real, and see how it works.  That'll tell you better than guessing here will.



I will, but right now the only partner I have to work with his my son, who's had the same training as me, as in we are both beginners at BJJ so I also wanted to get feedback of those with more experience



> Though I can't help but wonder just how much of a modification you can make and still call it a down block...



*shrug* I'm actually more interested in motions more than techniques   If the gross motions can be refined to something useful that ends up being a different technique, that's useful to me.




> It can be used but another aspect that also helps is the front stance - at least I seem to remember doing the front stance with the downward block in the first form I learned in TKD but, admittedly, I've been out of TKD for quite a while so my memory may be hazy.



Pretty much what I'm going from  



> This is a little off-topic but tangential to the bigger picture you're talking about...



Yeah, short circuiting the attack and countering with a strike (TKD has a philosophy that a block is an attack against the opponents weapon)


Thanks all so far


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## FearlessFreep (Jun 4, 2008)

D Dempsey said:


> I learned the same technique in combat sambo and I've had a decent degree of success using it to stop takedowns.  With that being said you can't really do it statically like you would with a downward block because you step around you opponent.  It's worth a shot though.
> 
> Nice vids BTW.



Same here, I learned a variation of that shoot-defense wiht some minor foot work variations


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 4, 2008)

Not sure an actual down block is going to work. 
1. We don't teach to shoot in blind. Meaning we just don't shoot in. You have to use level changes. Fake a punch to the face and then shoot.
2. you are trying to keep them from getting close to the legs to begin with. You would more then likely use more of a palm heel or a stiff arm in football to do that. A downblock could be this if it travels more out away from the body, instead of an arc close to the body.
3. You could use the down block to use as a cross face. It's important that they drop their weight and sprawl on the attacker. If they remain standing up, it is easier to get you down.
4. Once I have sprawled, strike to the back of the head is a great shot to K.O them


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## allenjp (Jun 4, 2008)

Kempojujutsu said:


> Not sure an actual down block is going to work.
> 1. We don't teach to shoot in blind. Meaning we just don't shoot in. You have to use level changes. Fake a punch to the face and then shoot.
> 2. you are trying to keep them from getting close to the legs to begin with. You would more then likely use more of a palm heel or a stiff arm in football to do that. A downblock could be this if it travels more out away from the body, instead of an arc close to the body.
> 3. You could use the down block to use as a cross face. It's important that they drop their weight and sprawl on the attacker. If they remain standing up, it is easier to get you down.
> 4. Once I have sprawled, strike to the back of the head is a great shot to K.O them


 
I would agree with this post, having wrestled greco-roman in high school, and now training bjj, I don't think just an arm can effectively block a well timed shot...you simply MUST move your feet. You could certainly use the forearm to push down on the back of the neck in conjunction with a sprawl or an evansion to the side...never tried that.


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## pesilat (Jun 5, 2008)

> Though I can't help but wonder just how much of a modification you can make and still call it a down block...



Personally, I see labeling as one of the big problems in a lot of martial arts training.

We have to label things in order to communicate them more easily - as humans we are used to dealing with labels and are comfortable with them.

Think about this, though, if I point to a tree and ask you what it is, you will say, "A tree." That's a label. As I said, we have to use these labels - imagine trying to describe everything in more detail all the time. And where do you stop? Imagine, for instance, trying to describe everything (including people and cars) in terms of its chemical makeup. So, yes, labeling is necessary.

But, at least in martial arts, it can also get in the way. Label can turn into "concrete shoes" that drag us down and drown us in a mire of filtered perceptions. You look at a movement in a form and see _only_ the label. It's a block or a punch or a kick.

But really it's just a motion. That motion can be applied in many ways. If you get hung up on the label, though, then you are limiting your own perception.

I had been exposed to this mindset previously but didn't really understand it until I started training in Silat. In Silat we have what we call "jurus" (short forms used to develop upper body attributes) and "langkah" (forms used to develop lower body attributes). Our first juru has six positions. The first thing to realize is that the motions between the positions are just as important as the positions themselves. Next we delve into the motions and positions looking for applications. We investigate how each position can be used - as an entry, a strike, a lock, a disarm, a choke, a takedown - each position can be used as any of these. You can find multiple options for each of those for each position. And the same is true for the motions between the positions - the various permutations available in our first juru are finite in number but it's a pretty big number. When you take a longer form - such as a TKD form or a Karate kata or a Kung Fu form ... well, the permutations are still finite but the number is incredibly large.

By ignoring the labels and investigating the motions we are able to find our own expression - find the "art" in our martial art.

Mike


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## arnisador (Jun 5, 2008)

The arms aren't what's most important here. It's the legs that make the defense. He'll be coming in with all his weight--a strike is unlikely to stop him from wrapping his arms around your legs. You have to brace/sprawl first if he's gotten to that point.


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## Ybot (Jun 9, 2008)

arnisador said:


> The arms aren't what's most important here. It's the legs that make the defense. He'll be coming in with all his weight--a strike is unlikely to stop him from wrapping his arms around your legs. You have to brace/sprawl first if he's gotten to that point.


I have to agree.  If a guy shoots with good form he's gonna hit you with his whole body at once.  One arm is unlikely to stop that.

Also, in response to the idea about striking the head or neck... again if they have good form they change levels with their legs, not by bending at the waist.  They will shoot it with head up and the whole body low, so I really don't think that you'll have a good angle to hit them with the down block.  The direction of a strike would have to be different.


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## Skpotamus (Jun 9, 2008)

You would be better off trying to use a knife hand block to help stop the shot.  As others have said, knocking the arms away won't do a lot for stopping a takedown, plus a wrestler isn't going to shoot in if they can't reach out and touch you.  

If you could teach them to drop back and get a forearm in the neck/chest  (knife hand block) to check the wrestlers forward momentum and slow them down somewhat, add in some lateral movement while you're doing it, you can deflect a shot this way.
Tony Blauer's SPEAR system uses something pertty similar to what I'm talking about  



 he uses it for a bearhug defense in this clip, but if you can shoot your hips back you can use it against a shot.    

I think the best thing you could teach them though is how to sprawl properly and incorporate it into their warmups so they get to use it every class (that's what I did).  25-50 sprawls is a great way to get the blood flowin.  


YMMV


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## DavidCC (Jun 10, 2008)

Ybot said:


> They will shoot it with head up and the whole body low, so I really don't think that you'll have a good angle to hit them with the down block. The direction of a strike would have to be different.


 
Given the orientation of the head as you dscribe here, something like a linear horizontal attack to the face might be successful in this case.  Especially if it was an attack that might get them to react in such a way that they instinctively jerk backwards in response to it (as opposed to simple blunt force).


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## Ybot (Jun 10, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Given the orientation of the head as you dscribe here, something like a linear horizontal attack to the face might be successful in this case.  Especially if it was an attack that might get them to react in such a way that they instinctively jerk backwards in response to it (as opposed to simple blunt force).


True, that would be a better approach, but don't expect stopping power unless you hit them on the button and put them out.  Remember they are coming in with their full body mass, even a strong shot will not overcome their inertia.  You'll need some sort of foot movement and counter as well.


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## DavidCC (Jun 10, 2008)

well, that's true, but there are ways to elicit an instinctive reaction from the shooter that will make him pull back most of his momentum and balance.


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2008)

Eh...I doubt it. This is a pretty committed move, and they 'll be able to take most blows on the hard part of their skull. Try it against a BJJer or wrestler.

If it were that easy, it'd have made it into the MMA world.


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## DavidCC (Jun 11, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Eh...I doubt it. This is a pretty committed move, and they 'll be able to take most blows on the hard part of their skull. Try it against a BJJer or wrestler.
> 
> If it were that easy, it'd have made it into the MMA world.


 
Either I misunderstood and we are talking about strictly ring-allowed techniques, or you need to "think outside the box", my friend


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## Errant108 (Jun 11, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Either I misunderstood and we are talking about strictly ring-allowed techniques, or you need to "think outside the box", my friend




Being in or out of the ring does not magically make a low percentage technique higher in percentage.

The factors that work against this technique in the ring work against it on the street as well.  The laws of physics do not change.  Forward momentum is forward momentum.


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

Errant108 said:


> Being in or out of the ring does not magically make a low percentage technique higher in percentage.
> 
> The factors that work against this technique in the ring work against it on the street as well. The laws of physics do not change. Forward momentum is forward momentum.


 

Being in the ring makes some thing illegal.

What technique are you talking about?


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Either I misunderstood and we are talking about strictly ring-allowed techniques, or you need to "think outside the box", my friend



I didn't think we were talking about only ring-allowed techniques. But I also don't think there's a magic way to get him to turn around that momentum. This is a pretty committed move. You could knock him out and he'd still be falling into you.


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## allenjp (Jun 12, 2008)

I am a huge proponent of SD realistic training instead of ring training, and on this point I must agree...like I said before, ya just GOTTA move your feet, or you're going to be in trouble. Now if you want to combine that with another type of attack, have at it. But it's gonna be pretty hard to knock someone out in the limited time you have before they get your legs if you don't MOVE...


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

arnisador said:


> I didn't think we were talking about only ring-allowed techniques. But I also don't think there's a magic way to get him to turn around that momentum. This is a pretty committed move. You could knock him out and he'd still be falling into you.


 
I'm not saying "no footwork", 
 but how much can he reverse his own momentum, if he was so inclined?


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## allenjp (Jun 12, 2008)

Once he's commited? Not much, that's precisely the point. That is the exact weak point of the shot as an offensive technique, and why people spend so much time training it. Once you have commited to it, you're wide open for punishment until you close the distance, because you really can't change your momentum or direction much once you've commited. That is why it is hard to deflect or deter them unless they are not good "shooters".


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## DavidCC (Jun 12, 2008)

So the skilled shooters lose balance and control of their own movement, but the crappy ones do not?


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## allenjp (Jun 12, 2008)

No.

Being unable to change direction in the middle of a shoot is not about losing control of your balance, it's a matter of being commited and already throwing your weight behind it. If someone cannot pull out or change direction in the middle of a shoot, it is not because he does not have control, that is just the nature of the technique. It would be like trying to stop a powerful kick in mid delivery when the leg is already extended. Not easy to do.

When I compare a good shooter to one who is not good, I am referring to the fact that one who does not know that technique well is likely to start a shoot at the wrong moment, or from too far away, or to telegraph his intentions for said shoot. This is the person that is more likely to leave himself vulnerable to an attack such as a downblock on the back of his head or neck. 

Have you ever trained in proper shooting technique? If you have not, believe me it is not as simple or easy as it looks, and is not as easy to defend against as it looks either. The most effective defense against a well trained leg shooter is a properly timed sprawl or at least a side step movement, period. (good luck on that side step though) As I said before, if you want to add an attack to that, be my guest. It may make it more effective. But do not let that attack interfere with your foot movement as that is the most important.


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2008)

It's a pretty committed technique, but you may still be able to angle off to the forward side if need be--this was a common tactic of the Gracies in challenge matches. If a strike is coming in you may be able to make it a single leg variant off to one side.

Then again, you might not manage this. Once you bend your legs to drop your height and start putting your knee forward, you are _falling _into it. A punhc to the face may bend you back but your torso is still falling into it. Hands alone are unlikely to do it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jun 12, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Eh...I doubt it. This is a pretty committed move, and they 'll be able to take most blows on the hard part of their skull. Try it against a BJJer or wrestler.
> 
> If it were that easy, it'd have made it into the MMA world.


 
*Very true.* 

Another problem with this type of a defense and I am not saying that it could not work just that it is *not a high probability move*. (read low probability)  However here is the major problems.  For a down block to work you the blocking person must have stability in other words you have to have strong structure and framework.  Most of the time when someone shoots in if they know what they are doing they come in when their opponent is either stepping forward and placing weight on their lead foot or when they have maneuvered their opponent back on their heels.  Now if they just stepped forward and place quite a lot of weight on that lead leg they could conceivable down block but they would not have the coordination of leg, hips, arm, etc.  If they are back on their heels then a down block would be well not very effective at all.

Good evasive footwork and a strong sprawl will go a long way in defending takedowns.  *Those are higher percentage moves*.


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## allenjp (Jun 12, 2008)

All that said I have seen guys eat knees when shooting in before, and that did not look at all comfortable...


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2008)

That can happen, but as mentioned, someone who knows what he is doing will set up the move to make that hard. You also don't go in with your arms way out so they could help intercept a knee, possibly.

There is a reason the Gracie challenge was so successful, and a variation of the double or single leg takedown was a reasonably common opening technique...wait out a few kicks, catch them falling onto their lead foot and off-balance, and dive for that (or both) feet.


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