# How do you find out if you're being stiffed.



## Ronnin (Mar 9, 2007)

Okay I am new to the Chinese Arts, so I don't know all the teachers, or the small details that distinguish one style from the next, a real teacher or a fake. I am begining Chen Style and I want to make sure my time and effort are spent wisley. So how does one find out if their teacher is ligitimate? Obviously we can't ask them.......so how can I do some reserch ?
Thanks for you thoughts.


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## arnisador (Mar 9, 2007)

I had the same thought yesterday as I read about a physical therapist teaching Tai Chi for improved balance for seniors...he was certified to teach Tai Chi. I thought, does that mean he knows traditional Tai Chi, or just a therapeutic approach (which I don't have a problem with)?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2007)

Ronnin said:


> Okay I am new to the Chinese Arts, so I don't know all the teachers, or the small details that distinguish one style from the next, a real teacher or a fake. I am begining Chen Style and I want to make sure my time and effort are spent wisley. So how does one find out if their teacher is ligitimate? Obviously we can't ask them.......so how can I do some reserch ?
> Thanks for you thoughts.


 
Why cant you ask him?

Ask him who his teacher is or was and how long he has trained. 

For the most part when it comes to Chen style if your teacher is greater than 1 generation away I would be surprised. In other words either he learned form the Chen family of his teacher learned form the Chen family. 

If your teacher says they leaned Chen form any of the Physical Education colleges in China then likely he know form and that is all. 

Example my first Sifu learned almost all of his CMA from a Physical Education College in China and if you asked him where he learned Yang style he may give you a teachers name but that teacher worked at the college and never trained with the Yang family (side note and this could be that case with your teacher as well. My first Sifu did learn a Chen form prior to going to the academy in and it was Shandong Province Chen style  pretty much the same as the first old Chen form but considerably longer however my best guess says he is then at least 2 generations away and that is not too bad either) 

Now if I ask my Yang Sifu who his teacher was he will say Tung Ying Chieh and that is it. Tung Ying Chieh learned form Yang Chengfu done the rest is documented by the Yang family.

And my last Chen teacher is a student of Chen Zhenglei. One generation away. 

However I also came across someone, right here on MT, a few months back that was claiming a Chen lineage to an actual Chen family member but the lineage was bogus. They claimed an inside student lineage and the Chen family member they said taught their teacher *NEVER* had any inside students outside of the Chen family and their teacher was not a member of the Chen family. 

Also just having the name Chen does not mean that the teacher is a member of the Chen Taiji family. Dr Yang in Boston teaches Yang style and he is very good at it but he is not a member of the Yang Taiji family. There is also a Sifu Chen in the US that is very good and Chen style but also he is not a menber of the Chen family. 

If you like PM me your teachers name and his teachers name and I will check it for you and see what I can find.


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## Jade Tigress (Mar 9, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> Why cant you ask him?
> 
> Ask him who his teacher is or was and how long he has trained.
> 
> ...



Excellent advice as always Xue. :asian:

Ronnin, good luck in finding the information you seek. Wish I had more to add but XS summed it up nicely.


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## pete (Mar 9, 2007)

ok, its true you don't know what you don't know. and even if your teacher isn't all that, and even teaches you somewhat incorrectly (or more likely incompletely), there will still be a certain percentage of the art that you will learn and get a feel for it. i know. i've passed through a few on my way to finding my current teacher. chalk it up to life experiences.

so, what to do. start somewhere. i suggest 'go do it' over analysis-paralysis or what i like to call Hamlet-martial arts (to be or not to be...) you can always walk away. don't sign any long term contracts!

find out if the teacher is right for you. talk to him. is there a communication problem, teaching style, ego or other barrier to interfere with your learning.

is the teacher competant? can he show you physically what to do to correct posture, center breathing, move fluidly. can he help you to decrease the effort required to perform the postures and forms, ie, does he help you make it feel natural, organic rather than forced.

how do the other students look? do they seem to have the qualities you'd like to develop through your training. are they rooted, yet mobile? do they assist in a friendly sharing atmosphere? is that type of cooperation encouraged by the teacher?

what emphasis is placed on the martial art? is there breakdown of form for application? is there time in class to react and counter, developing the feel for it, working the martial applications with the other students. is there pushing hands? is pushing hands done with martial intent. is there sparring?

does the teacher encourage questions, and is he capable of answering and demonstrating the answer? does he demonstrate to show that he can do it, or does he show you as a student how you can do it. does he provide a logical progression to learn new material based on things you've already done?

does the teacher integrate the various aspects of the art to support eachother, for example, use of clarity of thought and breathing technique from mediation to improve sparring, sensitivity of push hands to improve applications, non-cooperative martial applications to improve form postures.

does your teacher have a teacher? peers? is he still learning, improving, and developing his own art? does he make his teacher available to his students through seminar, retreats, etc.

this is the basis for how i teach, and from whom i am taught.

lineage has its merits, but is not the be-all, end-all. there are also many, many lesser known styles offer excellent instruction with lineages that people may never have heard of. my suggestion is to evaluate all of these things, ask questions and go with what feels right for you. it's not the type of thing you can determine after a lesson or two (unless you know for sure something is just not right), so give it a chance but don't be afraid to walk away if it ain't right for you.

pete


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## DavidCC (Mar 9, 2007)

is it just me or is it hilariously ironic that you used the word "Stiffed" to describe you experience with Tai Chi?


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## Ronnin (Mar 9, 2007)

DavidCC said:


> is it just me or is it hilariously ironic that you used the word "Stiffed" to describe you experience with Tai Chi?


 
huh........that IS ironic


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## SifuPhil (Mar 9, 2007)

pete said:


> lineage has its merits, but is not the be-all, end-all. there are also many, many lesser known styles offer excellent instruction with lineages that people may never have heard of. my suggestion is to evaluate all of these things, ask questions and go with what feels right for you. it's not the type of thing you can determine after a lesson or two (unless you know for sure something is just not right), so give it a chance but don't be afraid to walk away if it ain't right for you.


Excellent post, Pete.

I especially agree with this last paragraph. I've often had potential students who were literally entralled with my teaching approach, curriculum, etc. but turned and ran when they found that I couldn't claim the "proper" lineage.

Yes, it's wonderful to be able to claim it, but I think it might also induce an elitism in certain students. It's as if the lineage affords some sort of mystical Golden Bell of Ability. Not taking anything from anyone here that is lucky enough to claim a decent line - just relating what I've encountered.

An argument I've also frequently encountered is the "purity" one - a form is much more pure, the closer to the founder you get. Well, yes of course it is. But forms change over time - not always in a good direction, granted, but change they must. Different interpretations, different physical limits and varied intents all produce forms that may look superficially alike but deep down are as different as night and day. Are we to be forever stuck in (as Bruce Lee would say) the classical mess, or are we willing to open  ourselves up to change?

Tradition is one thing...being stuck in a rut is something else entirely.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2007)

Lineage is certainly not the proof of a good teacher, I have a post somewhere here on MT on that actually, but if you are looking for a real Traditional Chen school it is likely you will have it. Chen is not as prolific as Yang so in general it is easier to pick out the charlatans via lineage. But that is not to say that it means it is a bad school if it has none. However when talking Chen it is generally there within 1 or 2 generations and if they have never trained with a member of the Chen family or someone who has you really need to find out how they learned it and who from.  

Also as I mentioned there are people that claim lineage that are not truthful about it and those people should be exposed if they are billing their whole teaching based on said (fake) lineage. 

My first sifu technically had no lineage when it came to Chen and today his reputation is pretty much ruined by other decisions he made when it comes to CMA. But his Chen style was incredible; however the training was hard so he stopped teaching it because there was no money in it. He went a different route and made a lot of money but few take him seriously anymore in the CMA arena. He by the way has a talent for learning from a video; rather amazing actually, he can copy it perfectly. He did at one point try and claims a Chen family lineage and was teaching Chen family forms I know he did not originally know. I also heard it from a Chen family member that my first sifu never trained with the Chen family and he was essentially lying about his lineage.


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## SifuPhil (Mar 9, 2007)

I think that, lineage or not, lying about your past is the one thing you DON'T want to do. Don't these guys realize that the past (or lack of it) always catches up to you? Why throw away all the goodwill you've managed to collect for the sake of ego?

Some folks really CAN pick things up from video, at least the externals. I would imagine one way to "find them out" would be to ask what's going on internally in the form. If you already know the answer, you'll see if they're honest or not. Unfortunately, to beginners any line of BS will suffice to baffle and amaze them. It's only after they've wasted their time and money do they discover they could have gone a different way. In that way, I can certainly appreciate the importance of good lineage.

But even then, they've gained some negative experiences - always useful in life.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2007)

SifuPhil said:


> I think that, lineage or not, lying about your past is the one thing you DON'T want to do. Don't these guys realize that the past (or lack of it) always catches up to you? Why throw away all the goodwill you've managed to collect for the sake of ego?
> 
> Some folks really CAN pick things up from video, at least the externals. I would imagine one way to "find them out" would be to ask what's going on internally in the form. If you already know the answer, you'll see if they're honest or not. Unfortunately, to beginners any line of BS will suffice to baffle and amaze them. It's only after they've wasted their time and money do they discover they could have gone a different way. In that way, I can certainly appreciate the importance of good lineage.
> 
> But even then, they've gained some negative experiences - always useful in life.


 
When I first started training with him I knew he was a graduate of a Wushu college and I knew he learned his Chen somewhere else. And he showed me a list of all the forms he knew from college and it was rather impressive as was his Chen. But he changed to chase the dollar and was very succesful but his students are very poor and fewer than they use to be. And I have heard more than one CMA sifu refer to him as "hua quan qiu tui".

But I am going off post, sorry


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## Ronnin (Mar 10, 2007)

I know lineage isn't everything, but I do think it's importiant that if you want to learn Chen, that you are learning Chen. Not only that but the correct forms. Not some hybrid. To me at least.


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## East Winds (Mar 10, 2007)

SifuPhil,

"But forms change over time - not always in a good direction, granted, but change they must. Different interpretations, different physical limits and varied intents all produce forms that may look superficially alike but deep down are as different as night and day."

I agree to a certain extent. Forms can and do change, but one must always be aware at what level the changes actually alter not only the perception of the form, but also change the essence of the form. Not always an easy distinction to make. Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan is governed by Yang Cheng Fu's 10 essences. My teacher always says that if the form consistently contains the 10 essences then no matter what the external appearance, you will still be doing Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan. If any of the essences are absent, then you will not longer be doing a correct form. 

Your posts are always informative and welcome.

Very best wishes


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## grydth (Mar 10, 2007)

I share East Winds concern about change.

When inquiring about a posture or segment that looks unusual in a form, the (Japanese style)  buzzword I most often hear is "sensei specific"......... oh, that change is a sensei specific thing our guy here added.

When, after a few generations of these, do we have forms that no longer resemble the originals? Do we have a danger of a martial arts Tower of Babel?  Do we not run the risk of ill advised additions and disastrous deletions in forms?

I think change is necessary and beneficial, and can profitably be undertaken by seniors after study and consideration. But in America, where every Soke and Grand Master with 3 years of experience feels fit to make these, I fear what the landscape will look like in 20 years.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2007)

Ronnin said:


> I know lineage isn't everything, but I do think it's importiant that if you want to learn Chen, that you are learning Chen. Not only that but the correct forms. Not some hybrid. To me at least.


 
There are fewer charlatans out there teaching Chen as opposed to Yang or CMC for that matter. 

My first sifu now teachers the same exact Chen as the Chen family and the same exact Yang as the Yang family and his forms are identical to what they do. Yet the Chen family is very aware he did not train with them or anyone they said could teach. I am not so sure the Yang's would know if he had learned form someone that learned from Chengfu or not. And the reason for this is that there are SO many people that learned from Chengfu and his students it is next to impossible to track. I do not believe the Chen family knows every single person that learned Chen from someone they said could teach but I do believe they have a better handle on it due to the fact there are just fewer of them by comparison to Yang.

Lineage is not the be all end all of a taiji teacher, and even if a taiji teacher has a lineage as an inside student does not mean he is a good teacher. Yang Shouhou, Chengfu's older brother, was an amazing martial artists but incredibly hard on his students and not all survived his training. He was not as good a teacher as Chengfu even though he was older and had trained longer. 

But we are talking Chen here and generally if you find a good traditional Chen school they are, as I have said, either a student of the Chen's or a student of a student of the Chen's. 

My first sifu did learn Shandong old style Chen and he taught it to me and I am guessing he was about 2 generations away. However even with good book keeping some branches are forgotten or missed and even though there was a rather prominent Chen family member that went to Shandong and did teach I do not believe the Chen family has a good grasp of that branch. 

However with that said the teacher in question her is a student of a person who was a student of the Chen family in China. And it appears that he is at least well trained. So my advice is to go give it a try and see what you think. If it were me I would go train with him for a while and see for myself. I will PM you more later.


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## Ronnin (Mar 10, 2007)

grydth said:


> I share East Winds concern about change.
> 
> When inquiring about a posture or segment that looks unusual in a form, the (Japanese style) buzzword I most often hear is "sensei specific"......... oh, that change is a sensei specific thing our guy here added.
> 
> ...


 
I agree completely, and this is my fear.


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## Ronnin (Mar 10, 2007)

Xue Sheng said:


> There are fewer charlatans out there teaching Chen as opposed to Yang or CMC for that matter.
> 
> My first sifu now teachers the same exact Chen as the Chen family and the same exact Yang as the Yang family and his forms are identical to what they do. Yet the Chen family is very aware he did not train with them or anyone they said could teach. I am not so sure the Yang's would know if he had learned form someone that learned from Chengfu or not. And the reason for this is that there are SO many people that learned from Chengfu and his students it is next to impossible to track. I do not believe the Chen family knows every single person that learned Chen from someone they said could teach but I do believe they have a better handle on it due to the fact there are just fewer of them by comparison to Yang.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks to everybody here for all the good info. I feel a bit better. A special thanks to Xue Sheng, for all you reserch on my behalf.


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