# Club, Knife and Gun Defenses.....



## Goldendragon7 (Dec 16, 2003)

One of the most interesting groups of study within Kenpo (IMHO).

These particular areas of study involve weapons which equate to distance most of the time.  In the initial phases of our system, we teach a "few" maneuvers for the defense of a " few" scenarios.

I think we must all realize that initially the techniques in the ideal phase of learning is all about coordination and learning what you are dealing with.  

As one progresses to more advanced levels of training (which some studios don't I understand) these scenarios, we must become more realistic.  This involves an improved replica in size, weight, sound, heat, and possibly a safe projectile.  

At this point, fingers, plastic or wood, don't really fill the bill.  Of course, safety is paramount.  We now can only start to learn the ins and outs, goods and bads, speeds and skills necessary to further develop our steps towards our skill development in defending against these devices if ever confronted in reality.  

This "PROCESS" is actually the same for any other category as well such as punches, armlocks etc..
Several have posted some good ideas, tips and training ideas towards skill enhancement.  Yet others have chosen not to graphically discuss these defenses outside of their studios (which I honor and understand the reasons), unless in person.

The most important part of training for these situations is the conditioning we receive from the countless hours invested.  Obviously we need to know that what we are practicing works, and there is no better way than to do that with a live partner.  Solo training is good in the initial phases but in the later, you must up the ante.

Discussion...........?


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## Michael Billings (Dec 16, 2003)

In essence, we are practicing for these scenarios from the day we walk in the school.  Real life assaults, unfortunately, involve knives, clubs, and firearms.  Setting aside whether or not you think they "work", I think that the techniques, as taught, open the door for you to consider all the options available.  Long Form 6 is just a starting point when it comes to considering weapons attacks.  Think of it as maybe a preface, and techniques against each weapon could be separate chapters, (or Forms), in their own right.  PCT's as Rainman calls them, (Principles, Concepts, and Theories), apply at all levels, and are the tools we need to use when trying to explore this catagory of attacks.

Good Topic!
-Michael

edited for spelling


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## Ceicei (Dec 16, 2003)

I agree.

I wonder, however, if the lack or decrease of realistic practice with weapons is because of personal/societal bias against these weapons, particularly guns?  So many in society have a fear of weapons--for two reasons, our unfamilarity with them and the hope/wish they didn't exist in a utopian society.

I understand and know the gun is a deadly weapon and not to be trifled with.  However, ducking our heads and pretending/hoping that we never will encounter an assailant carrying a weapon is too idealistic at best and at worst, unrealistic.  Risky, and definitely life threatening--perhaps deadly--if it ever happens.

Aren't we into martial arts for self defense?  If that is the goal, then we need to work on scenarios as nearly realistic as possible.  That includes split second timing and a paramount emphasis on stances/techniques--a mistake could cost our lives.  Time-wasting motions must be eliminated.

Nothing is as realistic as an actual street encounter, but we certainly can't just go out and procure bad guys to bang with just for the sake of experience.

The psychology of the mind is an interesting process.  When we feel "safe", we may not respond as quickly.  But we must build up to the point beyond that.  Wooden/plastic/rubber weapons have a place and allows us to progress with experience and speed.

Some martial artists advocate working with decomissioned weapons (ie. guns that might have firing pins removed, barrells filled, or whatever and blunt knives).  This offers a feel of weight, density, and if there is a sound (clicks or blanks).  This allows you to realize what you can do with hard objects (grappling with gun slides or knife blades, assailant's wrist motions [our counter-attacks may inadvertently cause the guns/knives to point towards us].  The sounds give us the timing realization--are we fast enough with the defense to escape injury or death? 

Even then, because these weapons aren't "soft" to work with, injuries in the course of practice is very real.

What we need then to consider is the trade-offs between imitation of reality and safety while practicing.

- Ceicei


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## satans.barber (Dec 16, 2003)

The other night we were discussing stick defenses, and one of my brown tips pointed out that in his experience (he's ex military and a trouble maker so has been in a few scraps in his time) pretty much all stick/baseball bat/golf club etc. attacks are two handed, rather than the one handed attacks practised in our system (I personally don't know any two handed stick attack techniques).

He grabs it, and goes 'err, what would you do if I did *THIS*' and swung the bloody thing two handed at me head! I was pretty shocked that he actually went for me with it (randomly attacking your instructor isn't really on IMHO, I'm not Clouseau FFS!) , but instinctively I dropped to one knee and struck at his groin, and had he swung the stick full force (he held it back although it didn't look like that originally, I though he was committed to the strike) it would have passed over my head.

I wasn't too happy with this defence, dropping down to your knees is a poor response I think (although it was my gut one) as it puts you in a really vulnerable and poor position.

What could I have done better? Are single handed stick attacks un-realistic? What would *you* do if someone swung a baseball bat at your head with full force and speed? _Is_ it acceptable to randomly attack your instructor?

Just feeding the discussion with a few yule logs really, not moaning as such...!

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Orig posted by satans.barber _*
> One of my students grabs a stick, and goes 'err, what would you do if I did *THIS*' and swung the bloody thing two handed at me head!
> 
> I instinctively dropped to one knee and struck at his groin.
> ...



This is a perfect example for why we need to increase the level of training at the upper ranks.   

""CONDITION" and guts take over where knowledge and skill end".  

You need to "condition" yourself and students for more realistic attacks.  If you have done your job teaching the basic technique and responses... you then need to "drill" the maneuvers so that extemporaneous reactions take over for you, and with realistic defenses.

:asian:


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## Ceicei (Dec 16, 2003)

Was that swing done overhead or sideways like a baseball bat?

If it was like a baseball bat swing, then I might consider a modified "Returning the Storm" after ducking under the swing.  

Perhaps another strategy would be ducking under the swing, checking the arm and getting in really close and doing something like "Thundering Hammers".

Alternatively, how about ducking and doing a crossover behind to do "The Back Breaker"? 

- Ceicei


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _*
> Perhaps another strategy would be ducking under the swing, checking the arm and getting in really close and doing something like "Thundering Hammers".
> 
> Alternatively, how about ducking and doing a crossover behind to do "The Back Breaker"?
> ...



or ducking under like in Short Form 2 towards 6 or 12 with and upward block and center knuckle rake ...... (which is what it was designed for) 

:asian: 

So Ian..... YOU DID GOOD!


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## Ceicei (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *or ducking under like in Short Form 2 towards 6 or 12 with and upward block and center knuckle rake ...... (which is what it was designed for)
> *



Short Form 2?  Uummmm, I would think portions of second half of the Long Form 2 in a modified way would have more application to this situation?

- Ceicei


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## MisterMike (Dec 16, 2003)

I do not think anything from Short 1 through Long 2 should be used as a technique by itself. These are the basics forms, and while their embryonic motion can be found in a more sophisticated form of a technique or technique form(Short 3 - Long 6) the motions were not intended to be used as techniques.

They are more like building blocks.


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## Ceicei (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *I do not think anything from Short 1 through Long 2 should be used as a technique by itself. These are the basics forms, and while their embryonic motion can be found in a more sophisticated form of a technique or technique form(Short 3 - Long 6) the motions were not intended to be used as techniques.
> 
> They are more like building blocks. *



On the other hand, many of these forms incorporate techniques into them.  Because of that, these segments can definitely be used as techniques.  Trapping an arm and doing an uppercut (as in long form 2) can certainly be used.  

When it comes down to the nitty-gritty of a fighting encounter, there is a real possibility we may not necessarily go through the process of a technique from beginning to end (especially of fancier or extensive types).  Rather, it is more than likely we may use part of it and/or modify by adding other moves depending upon circumstances.

- Ceicei


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## arnisador (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *The other night we were discussing stick defenses, and one of my brown tips pointed out that in his experience (he's ex military and a trouble maker so has been in a few scraps in his time) pretty much all stick/baseball bat/golf club etc. attacks are two handed, rather than the one handed attacks practised in our system *



Dr. Gyi of Bando makes this point often and strongly. He says he has searched the FBI statistics and an attack with a stick is so rare as to be negligible. But baseball bats, shovels, crowbars, etc., are all on there in number. Unless you're practicing to defend yourself against being arrested by a police officer wielding a baton, or riot police who are trying to stop you from rioting, or your correctional officer who is trying to get you back into your cell, a one-handed stick attack just isn't a real likely scenario.



> *
> I wasn't too happy with this defence, dropping down to your knees is a poor response I think (although it was my gut one) as it puts you in a really vulnerable and poor position.*



Well, I'm probably guilty of being off-topic here as I have nothing to say from an EPAK point of view, but with my good record I think I can stand a couple of Mod. Warnings. (It wouldn't be my first!) To me it sounds--as I'm visualizing it--like you were "passing in front of the net" as the hockey players say: Moving your head through the line of the strike. Perhaps that isn't so and I'm picturing it wrong. If it was a pure horizontal plane strike aimed at your upper head this might work, but if it's more diagonal or starts aimed more at shoulder height is seems to risk having your head crossing the line of the bat's tip at the worst possible time. Also, if your counterstrike doesn't drop him, you've reduced your mobility by putting yourself in a kneeling position just when you need mobility the most: How will you avoid his next strike? He could call "Fore!" and golf strike you!

My arnis instructor keeps at his school things like bats, axe handles, over-szied sticks, etc., so we can practice for this sort of situation. The big axe handle really changed things--it's weighted differently, for one thing.



> *What would *you* do if someone swung a baseball bat at your head with full force and speed? Is it acceptable to randomly attack your instructor? *



Well: a.) I like to close the distance to clinching if he's close and time permits or back way the heck up if he isn't close or I think I can get away, and b.) I always say "Call my bluff!" to my students!

I've had good luck (in training!) jamming these by jumping in and blocking the hands where they grip the bat, but it depends on where one starts and where the swing is starting from. People can thrust with the bat too of course!


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## Michael Billings (Dec 16, 2003)

No, no, no ... not two of clubs, but we practice against 2 types of clubs.

There is your basic beer bottle-Fu, as I call it, or the short baton ... and the "half a cue stick", ax handle, or baseball bat.  You have to play with both to understand the differences.

Single arm swings happen with the half a cue stick, but would be rare with a baseball bat, due to the relative weight differences.  The existing techniques still give us various options for both, although most schools probably, no certainly, train against the traditional short club (beer bottle, mug, etc.)  My school's bat is red, it helps with recognition.  As the length of the weapon increases, and the weight, momentum has to be considered and the variable options open to the attacker with both types of weapons. 

(I personally think chairs, thrown, and used a blockade are a good answer ... and good Kenpo)

-Michael


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> I do not think anything from Short 1 through Long 2 should be used as a technique by itself.
> *



Why?.... I totally disagree with you here.  Is there a rule that states a quality "self defense" maneuver has to be more than one or two movements in length to be considered an effective action?  I have used and have witnessed numerous "single movement" <<techniques>> that have been devastating.  



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> These are the basics forms (Short 1 through Long 2), the motions were not intended to be used as techniques.  They are more like building blocks.
> *



Once again, I believe you are a little off base.  While I "do" agree that these forms are correctly considered the "dictionaries of motion", indexing the major components of Kenpo with no "specific" application intended, they still have the possibility of causing harm and can be used independently... effectively.  

If this is not the case, then our basics within these forms are basically useless except for teaching.... and then I ask teaching what?



> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> While their embryonic motion can be found in a more sophisticated form of a technique or technique form(Short 3 - Long 6)
> *



I do agree that motions found in the first 4 forms can be found in "all" of the upper forms ...... since (from the beginning)the forms of our system are all tiered by design.

:asian:


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## Rainman (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *In essence, we are practicing for these scenarios from the day we walk in the school.  Real life assaults, unfortunately, involve knives, clubs, and firearms.  Setting aside whether or not you think they "work", I think that the techniques, as taught, open the door for you to consider all the options available.  Long Form 6 is just a starting point when it comes to considering weapons attacks.  Think of it as maybe a preface, and techniques against each weapon could be separate chapters, (or Forms), in their own right.  PCT's as Rainman calls them, (Principles, Concepts, and Theories), apply at all levels, and are the tools we need to use when trying to explore this catagory of attacks.
> 
> Good Topic!
> ...



Something for your personal consideration- using opposites and reverses change the order in which the hands move on certain techniques as far as parries go.  Same technique you just reversed the parries and gave the knife technique a different meaning.  Take special note of the constituents of (CM) and lever classification... just out of six and you may want to think about weapons of mass destruction.   Mass being the person in front of you, destruction meaning structural breakdown, weapons replace tools because you are now speaking of what gives life to your hands and feet.   

What do you control and what controls you?  An excellent example of this was sharp phil and we can utilize his picture to look at directional harmony as he attempted to defend.  Remeber his left arm flapping in the breeze?    It gave me the feeling of someone trying to unwind a top with their foot placed on the top of the top!  Meaning because he didn't know the principle of directional harmony he took off with a brake on so now the principle controlled him and sorry to say, phil died from the gunshot wound because he only had an understanding of what the movements were not what gave them life.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Rainman orig posted:_
> 
> * ... using opposites and reverses change the order in which the hands move on certain techniques as far as parries go. Same technique you just reversed the parries and gave the knife technique a different meaning. Take special note of the constituents of (CM) and lever classification... just out of six and you may want to think about weapons of mass destruction. Mass being the person in front of you, destruction meaning structural breakdown, weapons replace tools because you are now speaking of what gives life to your hands and feet. *



Sweet!  I have seen John Sepulveda demonstrating the reverse and opposites, specifically with parries.  I know Larry Tatum's TOW had a very simple one for Attaching Mace, but it was not really "reversing" or an "opposite", just taking what was available in the normal course of the technique.

I like the idea of sequential structrual breakdown as you execute techniques, up the attacking weapon (fingers, wrist, elbow, shoulder, etc.), to equate to "Mass Destruction."

Too late for me to dialogue more, but I like and understand the Concept, (hopefully).  Sequential Destruction until you reach center-man Mass, or break / injure / harm every target (and view everything as a target), with the idea of Contact Manipulation (CM), Control, or Immobilizations, at every available joint.

I gotta play with this soon.  Advanced class on Thursday nights ... OUCH!

Night All,
-Michael


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## satans.barber (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> Was that swing done overhead or sideways like a baseball bat?
> 
> If it was like a baseball bat swing, then I might consider a modified "Returning the Storm" after ducking under the swing.



It was done purely horizontally, just like my head was actually a baseball! Had I been doing it slowly and actually discussing it then yeah, I would have probably done with a Returning the Storm motiong myself, but since it was just a random attack with no forewarning I just reacted purely from instinct!



> Perhaps another strategy would be ducking under the swing, checking the arm and getting in really close and doing something like "Thundering Hammers".



Certainly that might have been an option, or what I thought afterwards when I considered it was that Dance of Death might have grafted in there best, i.e. duck the swing (going right down to one knee if needs be) then  rise up with a ridgehand to the groin and a pinning check to his arms, followed by a takedown (neutralising the stick in the process if possible).



> Alternatively, how about ducking and doing a crossover behind to do "The Back Breaker"?
> 
> - Ceicei



We don't do that one, I'll have to look it up 

I think the point is though, if someone attacks you _truly_ randomly, then as long as you don't get hurt your training has paid off! Yes it may be a bit of a sloppy defence, but that comes with a lack of real experience I suppose; too much pre-programmed training.

I mean, if I was out late at night, I would already be expecting an attack, so if I was jumped I'd still be in a state of readiness and I wouldn't call that random. Same as in training, we'll sometimes get an any attack-any defense line up going (with the higher belts), but again that's not random.

Thanks everyone for your input,

Ian.


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## MisterMike (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Why?.... I totally disagree with you here.  Is there a rule that states a quality "self defense" maneuver has to be more than one or two movements in length to be considered an effective action?  I have used and have witnessed numerous "single movement" <<techniques>> that have been devastating.
> 
> 
> ...



My definition of a technique is one defensive move and at least 2 offensive. So the Upward block, middle-knickle strike would not constitute a technique. There would have to be a followup. So I worded it as "by itself". Otehrwise, I'd have ruled out using a reverse stepthrough/inward block from Short Form 1. 

The same for Long Form 1, Step bakc/Block/Forward bow punch. While this can be used, it is only part of a technique.

I have no doubts that is it possible to throttle someone with a single blow, but it doesn't fit my definition of a technique.

So Forms S1-L2 do not really have any "techniques" per say.


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _*
> <<<My>>> definition of a technique is one defensive move and at least 2 offensive. Since it doesn't fit my definition of a technique, Forms S1-L2 do not really have any "techniques" per say..
> *



Ok, I can't debate your opinion, you have a right to it.

Once again, as I stated earlier I "do" agree with you that these forms (S1, L1, S2 & L2) were developed and are correctly considered the "dictionaries of motion", indexing the major components of Kenpo with no "SPECIFIC" application intended.  

I don't limit the interpretive possibilities that Mr. Parker taught me regarding the usefulness and understanding of the forms, so I was merely pointed out that "ONE" of their uses could be independent actions (or stand alone) responses vs., combinations.  Both are useful and necessary.

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Dec 17, 2003)

I realize Forms are expressions of Basics, with the 2's being "more sophisticated basics", however, I find, and choose to teach application for all the moves within the Form.  I do these against a partner in order to teach range and depth of motion.  I stress they are not self-defense techniques per se, but they can certainly be applied as such, and should be.

Some students learn better when they do them in the air, as related to 1st person (their body), others need the visual referent in terms of application of the basics to correct targets, with correct angles of entry and angles of incidence.

Just my way of teaching the Forms.

-Michael


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## Rainman (Dec 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *My definition of a technique is one defensive move and at least 2 offensive. So the Upward block, middle-knickle strike would not constitute a technique. There would have to be a followup. So I worded it as "by itself". Otehrwise, I'd have ruled out using a reverse stepthrough/inward block from Short Form 1.
> 
> The same for Long Form 1, Step bakc/Block/Forward bow punch. While this can be used, it is only part of a technique.
> ...



One defensive and two offensive... (1D) upward block- (1O) thrusting middle knuckle to the process (2O) Continuing and raking vertically downward "nip the tip" refers to a "groin shot" after the thrust.   Two targets two different methods of execution.

No movement is singular in action anyways- even if the strike is to only one target.    Here is another example- a thrusting inward block and a vertical outward block.  Two defensive movements no?  NO.  Put an arm in between.  Sophisticated basics.  Sophisticated basics make a technique out of what might seemingly be called a singular movement... such as a "reverse punch" with a chambered  opposing hand.   The chambered hand may represent many things and not necessarily be only highlighting opposing forces.  

The biggest problem with what you are saying is that is in absolute form.  Start putting this is what I am thinking currently- it tricks your mind into being more open.   It also allows others to add to your philosophies.     

Lastly lets look at long 1 for a sec.  Step back- pivot with an inward "block" which cancels width and heighth.  Utilizing rotational force pivot to a forward bow with a reverse punch.  Add exact targets for each strike er "block" and strike.  Does that sound more like a technique?    How about this definition, a technique is something that does what it was designed to do efficiently.


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## MisterMike (Dec 17, 2003)

I see that a basic motion can have more than 1 application, but "nip the tip" would be considered a minor shot, and not a major. Usually I wouldn't end a technique with a minor.(eye hooks/pokes excluded)

By the definition I practice by, this portion of Short 2 would not constitute a self-defense technique. It may be a technique of this or that, such as opposing forces( 1 up and 1 down) but I just wanted to clarify where I was coming from.

But now it leads to another thing. What should a self-defense technique do? When it is "over"?

Delayed Sword has 1 Defensive move and 2 offensive (as I learned it - block, kick chop). At most, th eopponent is bent over, but could still have some fight left in them. So you can put on an ending, take them to the ground and stomp around a bit.

But the S.D. Tech Delayed Sword ends at the kick by definition.

I think a S.D. Tech should have an entry, base and ending.

So that would be at least 3 moves.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 17, 2003)

But we have techniques like Sword and Hammer or Deflecting Hammer that do not fit your definition, unless you "count" the stance as the "base" and it does not sound like you are.  I am suggesting your definition may be a bit limiting (only to yourself or your students of course.)

I personally experienced Mr. Parker, Huk, and Tom Kelly all "Nipping the Tip" and the downward rake did not feel minor at all, as the fist was "fitted" into my solar plexus on the way to the nip ... basically, by all 3 of them.  This was over the course of the '80's at different seminars or camps.

You may consider "broadening" your perspective a bit to be tolerant of others experience or interpretation.  Don't feel like I don't respect your perspective and experience, I do.  Mine is just different.  I like the way you have chosen to define a technique, there is nothing wrong with it at all.  You have a logical construct, or paridigm, that works for you.  

Oss,
-Michael


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## MisterMike (Dec 18, 2003)

OH I know 

But you have to watch out for those whacky yellow belt techniques. They're sort of in a category of their own.

And don't worry, I'm open to other perspectives and I think one of the benefitting characteristics of Kenpo is that it has a set of definitions, rules and principles so that we can all talk the same language.

My or anyone's definitions would never be limiting, so long as what we use is consistant. From there, we get our viewpoints.:asian: 

By not being willing to interpret motion in the forms, that would be a limiting move for me and my students.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 18, 2003)

It might be good to be careful about overlooking some of the intermediate moves, such as transitions, and the inserts/adaptations/overtones of "single," moves in the forms. 

For example, in Short 2, couldn't you say that the, "technique," doesn't start with the block-and-knuckle...it starts with the rear cross-and-cover ffrom the right neutral bow to 3:00...and similarly, the "tech," doesn't "end with the knuckle, but with the cover to 12:00.

Similarly, with say Long 1, I tend to think that there's a lot tucked away in those first coupla moves...

Thanks.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 18, 2003)

I agree 100%

-Michael


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## psi_radar (Dec 18, 2003)

I'd have to disagree too. That outward block could break their radial bone and the raking knuckle, with enough penetration, could cause serious internal damage (lacerated liver for one) as well as hydroshock that will take the fight out of just about all but the most committed opponent. Think of traditional Karate systems which rely on very simple, yet precise, and powerful techniques--there are people out there that use these very effectively. 

Just my 2 cents, you're welcome to retain your opinion.


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## psi_radar (Dec 18, 2003)

Getting back to the main topic, one of the things I'm working toward is dealing with the mental aspects of facing the weapons and Kenpo in general--the adrenal dump and retaining your water when faced with a live weapon or a committed opponent. I think it's fine and good to play with replicas of the real thing, but in the final stages of training, an uke would have to be able to induce real fear and anger to test the techniques' worthiness and advance the student's ability to use them in true simulation.

"Fear is the mind-killer."--Frank Herbert.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 18, 2003)

"... it is the little death.  Allow it to pass over you and through you..." -Frank Herbert

Great idea and training.  The way we simulate this is increased speed and power, with intent to actually bop you if you don't move.  This increases anxiety, if not actual fear.  Then you get to train Mushin (another thread) and practice trying to relax while moving, remembering tight muscles are slow muscles.

We go back to softer weapons at this level ... unless we don't.  But 98% of the time we use a softer weapon.


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## kenpo12 (Dec 18, 2003)

> My definition of a technique is one defensive move and at least 2 offensive.



So if someone throws a hay maker punch at me, and I cut their circle and knock them out with a straight right punch, that's not a self defense technique?


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## MisterMike (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *So if someone throws a hay maker punch at me, and I cut their circle and knock them out with a straight right punch, that's not a self defense technique? *



I'd say that's a technique cut short, and a big IF.

Do you study one shot techniques?


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## Rainman (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> * But now it leads to another thing. What should a self-defense technique do? When it is "over"?
> 
> Delayed Sword has 1 Defensive move and 2 offensive (as I learned it - block, kick chop). At most, th eopponent is bent over, but could still have some fight left in them. So you can put on an ending, take them to the ground and stomp around a bit.
> ...



1.  Control 2 out of 3 dimensions

2.  Knock out, manipulation control, __________ you add one.

3.  Block, kick, chop.  The handsword is at least a stunning blow, I said at least...

4.  An entry can be a slip with a punch sweep combo.   There's a whole tek utilizing oppossing forces on the punch sweep combo.  Or combine combinations so they are one movement.   What is a punch sweep combo?  Could be likened to a forward bow and reverse punch- Long 1?


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## kenpo12 (Dec 18, 2003)

> Do you study one shot techniques?



Yes, I do.  I do practice knocking out my opponent with one punch.  I think that is a perfectly valid technique and the most efficient way to end a fight.  I do have follow ups planned if needed but I don't see any reason to run a 10 move technique if I can hit a guy once and it's over.


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## MisterMike (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *1.  Control 2 out of 3 dimensions
> 
> 2.  Knock out, manipulation control, __________ you add one.
> ...



Oops, I meant D.S. ends at the chop. I was pretty tired last night.  

Kenpo12:

I agree the fight can be ended at any moment. I'm simply stating that a self-defense technique has the defensive and offenseive items I mentioned earlier. If you happen to use them all or not, no difference.

But it sounds like you are saying you'd teach a technique that has 1 block and 1 punch. No more.


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## kenpo12 (Dec 18, 2003)

The first two moves of Attacking Mace I would consider a technique.  You could even do the moves simultaneously and make it one move.


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## MisterMike (Dec 18, 2003)

OK fair enough. I happen to like a similar sequence in Calming the Storm.


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## arnisador (Dec 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpo12 _
> *I don't see any reason to run a 10 move technique if I can hit a guy once and it's over. *



Are you sure you're doing Kenpo? 

Speaking of soft weapons, I know a number of FMA people who eventually do live blade sparring and I understand that the RMA people will do it too. I would never do this in a school setting--think of the liability alone--and would be unlikely to do it in most private settings. That takes a _lot_ of trust! But the point from the other thread about the heaviness and hardness of a real handgun makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly, I think there's a lot of value to using aluminum training knives.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Are you sure you're doing Kenpo?
> 
> Speaking of soft weapons, I know a number of FMA people who eventually do live blade sparring and I understand that the RMA people will do it too. I would never do this in a school setting--think of the liability alone--and would be unlikely to do it in most private settings. That takes a lot of trust! But the point from the other thread about the heaviness and hardness of a real handgun makes a lot of sense to me. Certainly, I think there's a lot of value to using aluminum training knives. *



Arnisador,

I have done some live blade training before. One or two trusted students and my blade, and I had it to them. I am no knife master, and no knife expert. To add to safety, put invisible tape over the the edge of the blade. Yes stabs are still dangerous, and you still can get cut, yet in my experience it is more like a paper cut. Not recommended for everyone. Most of the time we use Aluminum Training Knives. 

:asian:


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

I think live blade training is vital to understand the blade. But I am talking more along the lines of cutting drills and such (cardboard, paper, meat).

I don't think live blade training is important for sparring. Yes, I have done it before. It's O.K. for "blade awareness". But, to me, I think its actually less realistic, because with an aluminum trainer my partner isn't afraid to attack me with intent, but I find that with a "trusted" partner, this means they are "trusted" because they aren't REALLY going to stab or cut you. Plus, Blade awareness can be taught safely with an aluminum trainer.

So, I don't recommend live blade partner work. It's just not nessicary, and only opens you up to the possability of injury.

PAUL


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## Cruentus (Dec 19, 2003)

O.K.... 

Now let me put my last post in the context of what this thread is about.

I think that realistic training is VITAL to understanding how weapons work, and how to defend against them. In FMA, in my class, we train with stick primarily, and knife and short sword secondary. It's not possible to train in every circumstance, all the time; and if you try (Today we used sticks with the lights off, the day before, we used knives while barefoot in the snow, and tomorrow we will spar amty hand VS. Bow staff in between 2 cars....now who wants to volunteer their cars?  ) you'll only succeed in being extremely inefficient; a "jack of all trades." 


So, stick to what you do (whatever that is, froms, sparring, empty hands, or whatever), and work on getting extremely proficient at that.

BUT, it is good, every now and again, to do scenario training while using more realistic tools. Bats, ax-handles, bottles, rocks, belts, etc. You'll be suprised at your ability (as my students are) to translate what you already know (whether its Kenpo, FMA, or whatever) to the situation. These excersises are more designed to get your mind accustomed to "translating" what you know under pressure for self defense, rather then trying to become accustomed to every circumstance.

Any "real life" circumstance will NEVER resemble exactly your circumstance in the training hall, but your techniques will work if you can translate them into your circumstance when needed.

:asian:

btw...when doing scenario, improvised weapon, or "realistic training, I think safty is key. If you use a plastic bottle instead of a real one, or an aluminum dagger instead of a live blade, the realistic feel of the weapon sill still be there, yet your partner can realisticly try to hit you without hesitation. And...its always good to live to train another day!


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## Michael Billings (Dec 19, 2003)

I will bring in some plastic coke bottles to simulate the real thing.  I like the idea.  Careful with the bo v. knife ... and no, you cannot be next to my truck!!!  It sounds like a Dog Brothers thing, taken back one notch, which I like.  A lot of the Inosanto JKD/FMA guys I know, tape their blades, but it is with duct tape or electricians tape, not scotch tape, that can be sliced right through.  

I just don't believe in serious training injuries to mimic realism ... it just puts you off training for too long and you have to heal.  You have to have intensity and approach realism, but an extreme example is: I have friends that bang for real, we are talking cracked ribs and busted noses or knockouts, including grappling, so hyperextended elbows and blown out knees happen.  This is not an occasional occurrence, but happens all the time to one of them on the circuit.  To me this is just too much, unless you are really defending your life.  The healing time and risk of permanent injury alone is a deterrent.

By the by ... do any of you know how hard it is to get a one-punch knockout?  Lots of luck       It is extremely hard, even when trained specifically for this.  The human body can take a lot of abuse, and it is an extremely rare case when you get a one punch KO.  Ask any law enforcement guy.  One of my friends summed it up by saying "You can't knock 'em out (the perp) with one punch, I know cuz I have tried".  He started some BJJ, since a cop's job, generally, is control and restraint.  But when he was a jailer and somebody lost it, he tried to nail 'em.  This boy has some guns (biceps & triceps) on him and can still do jump spin reverse crescent kicks at 200 lbs.  He trained with Brian Duffy, moved to California and trained with John Sepulveda and Sigung LaBounty.  

My point is, that in any self-defense situation, especially against a weapon, don't think you are going to kick them in the groin and end it, or "Knock him out with one punch".  I think it is very unsafe even to have this mindset.  Every strike should potentially hit hard enough to be a KO, no matter where it lands, (not that they will go out if you hit them in the thigh as hard as you can).  It is a matter of INTENT, TRAINING, and ATTITUDE.

Be safe,
-Michael


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## kenpo12 (Dec 19, 2003)

> By the by ... do any of you know how hard it is to get a one-punch knockout? Lots of luck  It is extremely hard, even when trained specifically for this.



I agree, especially if the fight is already on, but I'm not talking about blocking and returning fire.  A pre emptive strike during a moment of diffusion will generally result in a KO.  If not it's usually enough to allow you time to run.


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## Ceicei (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *So, stick to what you do (whatever that is, froms, sparring, empty hands, or whatever), and work on getting extremely proficient at that.
> 
> BUT, it is good, every now and again, to do scenario training while using more realistic tools. Bats, ax-handles, bottles, rocks, belts, etc. You'll be suprised at your ability (as my students are) to translate what you already know (whether its Kenpo, FMA, or whatever) to the situation. These excersises are more designed to get your mind accustomed to "translating" what you know under pressure for self defense, rather then trying to become accustomed to every circumstance.
> *



Excellent!  I have to agree totally with you...  People need to realize that their martial arts is just a tool--a skill, it's the people who should be able to adapt to whatever is available using what they know (or as you put it, 'translating" their abilities).

- Ceicei


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## Ceicei (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *My point is, that in any self-defense situation, especially against a weapon, don't think you are going to kick them in the groin and end it, or "Knock him out with one punch".  I think it is very unsafe even to have this mindset.  Every strike should potentially hit hard enough to be a KO, no matter where it lands, (not that they will go out if you hit them in the thigh as hard as you can).  It is a matter of INTENT, TRAINING, and ATTITUDE.
> *



Of course.  We shouldn't expect just one short technique to "do it all."  We learn them in segments, but should be able to string the techs on or modify to fit the situation.

Bottom line is, if escape is not immediately possible, fight until we can escape or render the assailant incapable of continuing the attack.

- Ceicei


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## Kenpomachine (Dec 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I will bring in some plastic coke bottles to simulate the real thing.  I like the idea.  Careful with the bo v. knife ... and no, you cannot be next to my truck!!!  It sounds like a Dog Brothers thing, taken back one notch, which I like.  A lot of the Inosanto JKD/FMA guys I know, tape their blades, but it is with duct tape or electricians tape, not scotch tape, that can be sliced right through.   *



Hey, I can relate to this, at least partially 

When using plastic bottles, we fill them with waters at different levels sometimes, to have them weighted. The momentum is thus amplified and has to be taken into account also. If you don't grab it right, it may end up flying.
And we've also used a newspaper wrap in tape, as a kind of self made staff. This works nicely. And flies easyly when you've had a good workout and have sweaty hands.


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## adoepkethat70skenpokarate (Feb 9, 2011)

Did he hit a home run?


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 18, 2011)

satans.barber said:


> The other night we were discussing stick defenses, and one of my brown tips pointed out that in his experience (he's ex military and a trouble maker so has been in a few scraps in his time) pretty much all stick/baseball bat/golf club etc. attacks are two handed, rather than the one handed attacks practised in our system (I personally don't know any two handed stick attack techniques).
> 
> He grabs it, and goes 'err, what would you do if I did *THIS*' and swung the bloody thing two handed at me head! I was pretty shocked that he actually went for me with it (randomly attacking your instructor isn't really on IMHO, I'm not Clouseau FFS!) , but instinctively I dropped to one knee and struck at his groin, and had he swung the stick full force (he held it back although it didn't look like that originally, I though he was committed to the strike) it would have passed over my head.
> 
> ...


 

Too bad your account is closed Ian.I've faced this attack a few times times.I grew up in the mean streets of EAST SIDE LONG BEACH CA and SOUTHEAST SAN DIEGO and COMPTON CA,but I've trained against this scenario maaaaany times.

I assume that since you dropped to you knee under the attack and popped the groin,the bat moved laterally or diagonally and you moved away or away and in toward your attacker.Your first move--the groin shot--was good.The fact that it was your ONLY move,? Is bad. Under these circumstances (if I can't run like a Olympic track star with a cheetah chasing him),I have struck my opponents groin too,but I followed with a blizzard of strikes,weapons checks,displacements,push offs,wristlocks, knees,5 swords,Attacking and Alternating Mace,elbows (wings),wristlock disarms springing from the Gift series (grab my opponent's wrist and/or bat or whatever while running off the rest of the techniques) and the Talon approaches,and various Salute modifications too.I have used Tripping Arrow in rapid succession merged it with strikes (I'm going to put all these techniques up on my youtube Channel as well),and these have had tremendous success both in practice and on the street.Of course on the street twice it wasn't as sweet and fast,but it was even more successful because my opponents didn't know wth was going on as I kenpo'd them into oblivion.The other 3 times in my life it happened I demolished the guy because I was much better prepared for the onslaught (I was mentally braced for it and expecting it twice).

Hope that's helpful to any of you,and all of you who peruse this thread.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 18, 2011)

Wow.


-Rob


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 20, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> Wow.
> 
> 
> -Rob


 

Lol thanx!


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