# Block Set insertion



## donald (Sep 20, 2003)

I was checking out another board, and stumbled onto a discussion about the abovementioned. It seems Mr.Tatum has inserted a vertical outward block between the downward block, and the rear elbow strike! At first I thought why, but it fits! Has anyone else tried this, and what do you think? Not just about the insert to the set, but about the vertical outward as a tool in kenpo/self defense. Is it viable or nyet?

Salute in Christ,
Donaldo:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 20, 2003)

I liked the centerline anchor he used and the outward is certainly an acceptable insert.  He also modified the downward blocks path of action.  He is doing a more "practical" version of blocking set ... so it is a "Star Block" exercise ... and very sweet.

-MB


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## dcence (Sep 22, 2003)

I didn't know that is how he does it.  If it is, that's fine, but to me it is redundant of the vertical outward block between the inward block and the outward extended block.  Though it isn't  pronounced and is somewhat 'hidden' in the  transition from the inward block to the outward extended, it is there if you know what you are looking for.  But nothing wrong with doing something different if you know what you are doing.  

After the  outward downward block, I do an inside downward block on the way to the back elbow.

Regarding the back elbow, you can think of it as a block to a strike to your kidney area, or a strike if you prefer.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *I didn't know that is how he does it.  If it is, that's fine, but to me it is redundant of the vertical outward block between the inward block and the outward extended block.  Though it isn't  pronounced and is somewhat 'hidden' in the  transition from the inward block to the outward extended, it is there if you know what you are looking for.  But nothing wrong with doing something different if you know what you are doing.
> 
> After the  outward downward block, I do an inside downward block on the way to the back elbow.
> ...





Is there a reason you would reverse torque the arm after the inward and before the outward to obtain the VO block?    The point he was attempting to make is you don't have to make any adjustments to get the VO block before the back elbow, in which case, it wouldn't be redundant, it's also seen in Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction.    He also didn't mention the inward downward block on the way to the VO and rear elbow, or the inward/downward hammering block on the way to the downward (Raining Claw).     He was just illustrating part of what's there in a short clip to get you to think about your motion and not to create new points of origin.    It wasn't meant to suggest that's all there is to Star Block as it would take a lot more than just a couple of minutes to go over it and he's only got so much bandwidth on the site.     Hell, we have a fighting application to the formal salutation that you'll probably never see.     Larry's making an attempt to reach a broad sprectrum of Kenpo people with these clips, something no one else is doing from what I can see.    He's taking the TIME (and free to anyone on the net) to explain concepts, theories, and principles in a short clip.    If you don't find it useful, don't use it. 


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## jeffkyle (Sep 23, 2003)

I, for one, am glad to see Mr. Tatum doing this.  FREE is good for me!


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> Is there a reason you would reverse torque the arm after the inward and before the outward to obtain the VO block? The point he was attempting to make is you don't have to make any adjustments to get the VO block before the back elbow, in which case, it wouldn't be redundant, it's also seen in Circle of Doom and Rotating Destruction. He also didn't mention the inward downward block on the way to the VO and rear elbow, or the inward/downward hammering block on the way to the downward (Raining Claw). He was just illustrating part of what's there in a short clip to get you to think about your motion and not to create new points of origin. It wasn't meant to suggest that's all there is to Star Block as it would take a lot more than just a couple of minutes to go over it and he's only got so much bandwidth on the site. Hell, we have a fighting application to the formal salutation that you'll probably never see. Larry's making an attempt to reach a broad sprectrum of Kenpo people with these clips, something no one else is doing from what I can see. He's taking the TIME (and free to anyone on the net) to explain concepts, theories, and principles in a short clip. If you don't find it useful, don't use it.



Don't be so sensitive.  I  wasn't being critical.  I have mentioned before what a  great martial artist Mr. Tatum is.  I certainly respect his ability and knowledge.   I said in my post that it was "fine."   I didn't say it was wrong or anything.  I was giving Mr. Tatum  some credit by assuming he knew about the vertical outward block between the inward and extended outward.   That is why I said you can make changes if you know what you are doing.   I assumed Mr. Tatum knows what he is doing and was making another point with his adjustment.  

I just didn't want readers to feel the need to insert a block in their patttern when it is already there.  I have seen people, who think this block was mistakenly left out of the pattern, try to insert the vertical outward in other places like after the extended outward and before they go to the downward block.  When you point out that it is already  there between inward and outward extended, a light usually goes off.  

Again, I  wasn't being critical, just trying to help clarify that you don't need to feel like Mr. Parker forgot about the outward vertical and insert a vertical outward block somewhere when it is already there.

I don't understand your comment about reverse torque.  If you move from inward to outward extended properly the vertical outward happens quite naturally as the fist (palm facing you) passes in front of your face.

(Reverse torque is a misnomer.  Torque is torque.  Torque in forward motion, torque in reverse motion, torque in returning motion seems like more correct terms.  But that is a matter of semantics that sometimes I violate myself.   Just as long as one knows what he is doing.)

Again, no criticism was intended, just a clarification.

Thanks
Derek


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

Some people are just to touchy


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Don't be so sensitive.  I  wasn't being critical.  I have mentioned before what a  great martial artist Mr. Tatum is.  I certainly respect his ability and knowledge.   I said in my post that it was "fine."   I didn't say it was wrong or anything.  I was giving Mr. Tatum  some credit by assuming he knew about the vertical outward block between the inward and extended outward.   That is why I said you can make changes if you know what you are doing.   I assumed Mr. Tatum knows what he is doing and was making another point with his adjustment.
> 
> I just didn't want readers to feel the need to insert a block in their patttern when it is already there.  I have seen people, who think this block was mistakenly left out of the pattern, try to insert the vertical outward in other places like after the extended outward and before they go to the downward block.  When you point out that it is already  there between inward and outward extended, a light usually goes off.
> ...



Well, you could've fooled me on the being critical part.  

The inward block in done at a 45 degree angle, in order to achieve a 90 degree block on the VO you would need to reverse torque from the inward and then torque again to the EO.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

So let me get this straight.  You can pick apart AKKI techs or any other system for that matter.  Say the way Mr. Planas or someone else teaches it.  But if someone says anything about the way Mr. Tatum does a technique you have a cow.

The only wrong way is the one that doesn't work.  If it works then it is right.  Remember that, it isn't really that hard to comprehend.:asian:


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *So let me get this straight.  You can pick apart AKKI techs or any other system for that matter.  Say the way Mr. Planas or someone else teaches it.  But if someone says anything about the way Mr. Tatum does a technique you have a cow.
> 
> The only wrong way is the one that doesn't work.  If it works then it is right.  Remember that, it isn't really that hard to comprehend.:asian: *



 I admit to being critical.    Having a cow, not even close, how did you even come to that conclusion.

Clyde


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

It is really quite simple.  Read any post that questions, the way that Mr. Tatum does something.  Then read how many of your other posts where you have criticized other branches of the art.  It isn't really that complicated to come to that conclusion.:asian:


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> The inward block in done at a 45 degree angle, in order to achieve a 90 degree block on the VO you would need to reverse torque from the inward and then torque again to the EO.



Your statement leads me to believe that you don't do the VO between the inward and outward extended.  It is simply a matter of returning motion and is already there without the slightest change.  Have you not been  taught this before?

(Don't pause at the VO, it is just there in the returning motion of the transition between the two blocks.) 

Derek


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by dcence _
> *Your statement leads me to believe that you don't do the VO between the inward and outward extended.  It is simply a matter of returning motion and is already there without the slightest change.  Have you not been  taught this before?
> 
> (Don't pause at the VO, it is just there in the returning motion of the transition between the two blocks.)
> ...



Nevermind

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Fastmover (Sep 23, 2003)

I think Clyde is just a "homeboy" cheering for the home team. He is no different then anyone else out there in that regards. 

At least he comes ready for the job, he has the long locks of 
hair and a Pink Gi. 

No offense Clyde........your not the best looking cheerleader
I have seen.

Of course Im just having fun and trying to lighten things up!


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## Michael Billings (Sep 23, 2003)

I think one should be loyal to ones line and lineage.  It is a good thing for Clyde to advocate for Mr. Tatum - on the other hand, don't squash the other guy.  The arguement regarding torque.  I know there is no such thing, but by common usage, in Kenpoese, there has come a shared meaning.  I think of it as residual torque sometimes (when it is), a lot of the time.  

Anyhow, if Mr. Tatum shows this in a clip ... cool, not everyone has to agree with doing it that way.  That is why I see it as a Star Block Set or variation, rather than Blocking Set.  It is not the EPAK Blocking Set that is part of my lineage, do I discount or not learn from either of you ... NO.  I wallow in the diversity.  (YUK, what an image.)  

Clyde, your response, a bit judgmental and heated, just said to me you might not be having as good a day as other days.  I have not and am not going back and review your past posts. Just be aware that is how Shiatsu is perceiving you.

Shiatsu, it appears you are trying to stir the pot about something personal going on between you and Clyde?  At least that is how it looks to me by your referencing his history of posts, etc.

dcence, your posts look very honestly inquisitive and non-judgmental, that was why I wondered if Clyde had caught flac eslewhere or was having a bad day.  Nobody has to agree, and it is ok to get pissed on this board, at least it is ok with me, but not when I see someone trying to instigate and were not part of the conflict to start with.  So what up with this?

-Michael


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

I have nothing personal against him.  I don't even know him, I am new to this board.  However I don't see the point in bashing someone just because it isn't the way you do it.  I don't know Dcence either.  My point was and stillis, that the only right way is whatever works for you.  In self defense techniques, in a real street situation without a person going along with the technique how often will you really get it off completely the way you practiced it?  My answer is hardly ever.  In my line of work I have used many different techniques, and maybe 20% of the time did they go exactly the way I planned, and they were the basic ones.  I'm not trying to stir anyones pot.  Just saying what I see because it is obvious.:asian:


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## satans.barber (Sep 23, 2003)

I'm not so sure adding that block in is a good idea. When teaching people to do a back elbow (in, for example, Obscure Wing), it can be quite hard to condition them to do it from point of origin, i.e. having their palm resting on or about the thigh, and then bringing the elbow straight backwards into the sternum.

Many students seem to want to bring their hand forwards first, before striking back, because they think it'll be more powerful. This isn't good economy of motion as far as I know, and also wastes time, and finally makes the strike more visible to teh aggressor.

What I quite like about the star block set is that it teaches the back elbow from the downwards block, which is down by the thigh, and so this is a good approximation to using the back elbow from the thigh for Obscure Wing etc..

If you stick an outwards block in there then that practice is lost kinda, as far as I can see.

That's just from my POV though, 

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> Clyde, your response, a bit judgmental and heated, just said to me you might not be having as good a day as other days.  I have not and am not going back and review your past posts. Just be aware that is how Shiatsu is perceiving you.
> 
> ...



No, I'm not having a bad day, if you read my responses they are not heated, and I could care less how Shiatsu (just another anonymous voice in the wind who brings nothing to the table in the technical aspect  of what we're speaking of)  percieves me.    I would encourage you to read my posts and delete them if they appear so heated


  Judgemental, yes, why wouldn't I be judgemental on a subject I know much about, aren't you?    I get paid to teach, therefore I'm a little past amateur status, and it's part of my job (and a requisite of rank)  to pass judgement on Kenpo and it's practicioners.



Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

All of the technical aspects had already been discusswed.  When you wanted to make ill comments towards the way other people do things.  I don't know either one of you.  But the petty bickering between organizations is almost to the point of foolishness.


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## Fastmover (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> * But the petty bickering between organizations is almost to the point of foolishness. *




No one is representing an organization when they make a comment. It is simply an individual with an opinion. Individuals
can respectfully agree or disagree. 

Personally I learn a lot from different points of view and Im glad
the mods allow this sort of thing.

Just a Thought


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

Yadda, yadda, -- flamethrowers aside, who else has some interesting shtuff re blocking set.

Besides the obviously hidden vertical outward block between inward and outward extended, what else is there, obvious to some, not so obvious to us others?  

There is the back elbow block that I already mentioned.  Elbows that act as blocks are quite effective.

An alternative, look at what the forearms are doing in the last couple of blocks.  For example on the back elbow -- this can be done as a hanging backknuckle block/strike to a low thrusting strike to the kidney.

With the palm heel pushdown, use the forearm to divert a low thrusting strike to the abdomen, like a knife or club thrust.

I like the flow of the Blocking Set from high zone (upward block), to lower zone (inward/outwards), to even  lower (downward inward) to even lower still, (downwards/palm heel push down).  There is an intended progression there that makes some sense.  Not that variation is bad.

I  like practicing the sequence in a neutral bow where each of the blocks go out on the diagonals.  The pattern creates a triangle with you behind the point.  Use the rear hand to check, strike, etc.

I liked Tatum showing the proper deflecting angle of the downward block because if you do that block to 3:00 in a horse it  is really out of alignment if you step back into a neutral bow.  (See, it isn't so hard to say something nice about another instructor.)

Also, exchange the blocks  for parries and see what angle and  method  of execution differences there are.

Put a club in your hand and see what you would do with it.  Now a knife.

Lay on your back and do blocking set with your foot.  (Front kick, inward crescent, outward crescent, [roll to side] stiff leg heel kick, roundhouse, side kick).

There is way too much there to waste time flaming over the trivial.

Derek


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## Bill Lear (Sep 23, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Shiatsu *
> 
> _All of the technical aspects had already been discusswed.  When you wanted to make ill comments towards the way other people do things.  I don't know either one of you.  But the petty bickering between organizations is almost to the point of foolishness. _



Do you have something technical to contribute to this debate? Looks like opolitical pot-stirring to me.



> *Originally posted by Fastmover *
> 
> _ I think Clyde is just a "homeboy" cheering for the home team. He is no different then anyone else out there in that regards.
> 
> ...



 :lol: Ha Ha Ha! :lol:



> *Originally posted by dcence *
> 
> _Your statement leads me to believe that you don't do the VO between the inward and outward extended. It is simply a matter of returning motion and is already there without the slightest change. Have you not been taught this before?_



I think the point was to isolate invididual blocks and applications without disturbing the flow of motion between you and and your partner during it's practice... I will concede, there can be a vertical outward block inserted between the inward and outward blocks, but doing so would effect the continuity of the drill.



> *Originally posted by satans.barber*
> 
> _I'm not so sure adding that block in is a good idea. When teaching people to do a back elbow (in, for example, Obscure Wing), it can be quite hard to condition them to do it from point of origin, i.e. having their palm resting on or about the thigh, and then bringing the elbow straight backwards into the sternum._



I don't think it's a bad idea, just a different way of approaching it. If someone threw a punch at me from the front and I had to block it with a vertical outward, then be inclined to execute a back elbow to an attacker from behind this interpetation would work fine for me. Hell, it would add a little gravitational marriage to the elbow strike wouldn't it?

Now if I had to execute a pushdown block to the front and an elbow to the back... I would *not* lift my arm all the way to a vertical outward to a new point of origin without having a good reason to do so (see the example above).

Just some of my thoughts on the matter.


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

I never thought of doing it with a club, although I will try it tonight.  Forearm blocks are what we were taught in the beginning it then moved to brush and parry blocks.  We were taught.  Upper x block, downward push block, right outward block, left outward block, right inward block, left inward block, right down block left down block.  As we moved up in rank, we went to simple parry/palm and knife hand blocks, with exception of the x block.:asian:


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> I think the point was to isolate invididual blocks and applications without disturbing the flow of motion between you and and your partner during it's practice... I will concede, there can be a verticle outward block inserted between the inward and outward blocks, but doing so would effect the continuity of the drill.



Exactly right,  ZD.  I tried to be as clear as possible -- DO NOT PAUSE ON THE TRANSITIONAL VERTICAL OUTWARD BLOCK.  It is there in the passing between the inward and outward extended.  It should  not be emphasized.  Just see it like you would see someone on the side of the road as you drive by -- don't slam on the breaks and disrupt traffic (unless she is  really hot).

Derek


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## Bill Lear (Sep 23, 2003)

> *Originally posted by dcence *
> _Exactly right,  ZD. _



My name is Billy... Feel free to call me Billy for now on. Thanks.


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

Most everyone knows about doing the forward motion with one arm while doing the reverse with the opposite arm, from Blocking Set 2.  

Try chasing the blocks through the sequence.  Right upward/right inward with left upward/right outward with left inward/ .....  Just some coordination drills to keep you busy when things are slow.

Derek


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## Shiatsu (Sep 23, 2003)

I was just stating the way we do it.  We don't have a bunch of blocking sets.  That is our first one, then as I stated we go to the softer ones.   We aren't one for thousands of drills and technique lines, although I see the point in them.  :asian:


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## Michael Billings (Sep 23, 2003)

I particularly like the "deflecting angle" of the downward, but also a properly executed upward, inward, and push down.  

I like doing Blocking Set #1 as a Striking Set and as a Breaking Set.  My students feel like they are learning multiple applications for a simple appearing set.  Nice hook for them and gets them thinking outside the box.

-MB


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> I was just stating the way we do it. We don't have a bunch of blocking sets. That is our first one, then as I stated we go to the softer ones. We aren't one for thousands of drills and technique lines, although I see the point in them.



Oops.  I wasn't really responding to your post, though l can see where it looks like it.  I wasn't saying "Mosts everyone knows..." like it is so obvious you  shouldn't have brought it up.  I was saying, "Most everyone knows...." as a segway (sp?) as in "In addition to..."    Sorry.

Derek


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## dcence (Sep 23, 2003)

> The arguement regarding torque. I know there is no such thing, but by common usage, in Kenpoese, there has come a shared meaning. I think of it as residual torque sometimes (when it is), a lot of the time.



I agree.  That is why sometimes I use the misnomer.  Perhaps a  better term than  reverse torque is reversing  torque.  Same with "returning torque."  I think "residual  torque" is a  correct term for something altogether different from reversing or returning.

Just semantics.

Derek


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## kenpo2dabone (Sep 23, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I particularly like the "deflecting angle" of the downward, but also a properly executed upward, inward, and push down.
> 
> I like doing Blocking Set #1 as a Striking Set and as a Breaking Set.  My students feel like they are learning multiple applications for a simple appearing set.  Nice hook for them and gets them thinking outside the box.
> ...



I too have done this and even used a variation of block set as an extension to various techniques in there striking application. I found it works very well.

Another thing I find very interesting is doing block set with a knife in my hand. It really shows angles of attack and paths of action in your blocks. I do this with the reverse grip forwards and backwards as well as with e forward grip forwards and backwords. I also hold one knife in the reverse grip say with my right hand and one knife in the forward grip with my left hand and do block set in the forward motion with my right hand while simultaniously doing it in reverse with the left hand. One of the interesting things that I have found, which I am sure is no secret, is that a stabing motion in the reverse grip, such as an inward block, is a slashing motion with the forward grip. The opposite of that is true as well. A Stabbing motion with the forward grip, such as the inward-downword palm facing in block is a slashing motion with the reverse grip.  I don't know if you have ever played with block set in this manner but I thought I would share.

Salute,

Mike Miller UKF


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## dcence (Sep 24, 2003)

> Another thing I find very interesting is doing block set with a knife in my hand. It really shows angles of attack and paths of action in your blocks. I do this with the reverse grip forwards and backwards as well as with e forward grip forwards and backwords. I also hold one knife in the reverse grip say with my right hand and one knife in the forward grip with my left hand and do block set in the forward motion with my right hand while simultaniously doing it in reverse with the left hand. One of the interesting things that I have found, which I am sure is no secret, is that a stabing motion in the reverse grip, such as an inward block, is a slashing motion with the forward grip. The opposite of that is true as well. A Stabbing motion with the forward grip, such as the inward-downword palm facing in block is a slashing motion with the reverse grip. I don't know if you have ever played with block set in this manner but I thought I would share.



Those are great comments.  In the AKKI we do a knife flow drill that has Blocking Set as its base, but  it is a 2 man drill.  The two doing the set alternate attacking and defending.  One guy does the pattern based on Blocking Set, and the other guy does a different pattern based on  Blocking Set to counter the other, so when one is striking (say like an overhead stab or slash) the other is defending (say with an appropriate upward slash to the forearm/check.  Both moves are based off the upward block in the Blocking Set -- one  is attacking the other defending.  One each move they alternate who attacks and who defends.  It is very sweet.

Thanks for sharing your knife insights.

Derek


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