# Stick Fighting/Self defense, both?



## OCman44 (Apr 28, 2009)

Hello everybody,

I've been continuing my research on the Filipino Martial art trying to learn everything about it that there is before my training but there's a few things that boggle me about it. My main reason behind starting kali is for the "Self defense" and some other reasons but mainly for the self defense aspect of it.

Now, from what I've learned is that Kali has a "Stick" fighting art & a "Self defense" form. The thing that confuses me is that Im trying to figure out what the differences are and why some ppl claim it as an amazing, practical form of self defense and others say its just stick fighting.. The "Self defense" form where you have the Empty hand, knife/any other object you can pick up from daily use and use it with some techniques learned from the training is the part im trying to find out about. The actual stick fighting aspect of the art is primarily used in tournaments and less so for self defense. Thats how Im seing it

Now, the training methods used in the Self defense portion consist of the flow drills and other drills used with the sticks correct? I know that the sticks are used for training hand/eye cordination.

In otherwords Im trying to find out if Kali has 2 sides to its training. 1 for tournaments(not as much self defense) and 1 FOR self defense training(real world fights). The one im looking for is more so of the real world self defense and I think I've said it in my posts prior to this one but Im trying to clarify the differences between "stick fighting" kali, and self defense kali. Reason Im posting this is because anytime I talk to someone about Kali they always say, "Oh its just stick fighting" when in reality Kali is a deadly form of self defense as well thats not just based off sticks but everyday items that you come across that can be turned into a weapon with the use of kali techniques.


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## Blindside (Apr 28, 2009)

It depends on how you train, some schools focus on heavily sportized competition, sort of akin to Olympic TKD vs. traditional TKD. The training that you do for those types of competitions is very dissimilar to the root art. Which doesn't mean that those guys can't fight, but that some portion of their training is dedicated to that particular ruleset.  But if you looked at some of those competitions, alot of it is unimpressive and doesn't look like something you would want to take to assist you in weapon defense.

Regardless of sport/non-sport issues, I will say that many of the core training drills tend to get taught as matched weapon drills. This is incredibly valuable in getting reps for using and defending against a weapon, but at some point a significant amount of time needs to be spent on asymmetric weapon training. Real life isn't duels. But most of what people see, and quite frankly most of what a beginner would train in is something that looks like "stick fighting" or "knife fighting" rather than self-defense which would be characterized by dissimilar weapons.

Lamont


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## geezer (Apr 28, 2009)

Hello everybody,



OCman44 said:


> I've been continuing my research on the Filipino Martial art* trying to learn everything about it that there is before my training...*


 
If you're really interested in studying an FMA, find a good instructor and start training.



OCman44 said:


> Now, from what I've learned is that Kali has a "Stick" fighting art & a "Self defense" form. The thing that confuses me is that Im trying to figure out what the differences are and *why some ppl claim it as an amazing, practical form of self defense and others say its just stick fighting...[/*quote]
> 
> Well, what do you expect. Some "ppl" are well informed. Others are less so. And some are ignorant bloody wankers. The FMAs include a vast variety of arts, from blade work, to stick fighting, to empty handed work, at all ranges, from long range kicking to down and dirty grappling. But some styles do emphasize stick dueling. Find a teacher who teaches what you want and get going!


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## OCman44 (Apr 28, 2009)

Blindside said:


> It depends on how you train, some schools focus on heavily sportized competition, sort of akin to Olympic TKD vs. traditional TKD. The training that you do for those types of competitions is very dissimilar to the root art. Which doesn't mean that those guys can't fight, but that some portion of their training is dedicated to that particular ruleset. But if you looked at some of those competitions, alot of it is unimpressive and doesn't look like something you would want to take to assist you in weapon defense.
> 
> Regardless of sport/non-sport issues, I will say that many of the core training drills tend to get taught as matched weapon drills. This is incredibly valuable in getting reps for using and defending against a weapon, but at some point a significant amount of time needs to be spent on asymmetric weapon training. Real life isn't duels. But most of what people see, and quite frankly most of what a beginner would train in is something that looks like "stick fighting" or "knife fighting" rather than self-defense which would be characterized by dissimilar weapons.
> 
> Lamont


 
Thanks for the Reply Lamont, Its much appreciated.  However, Im still looking for more info on my topic if anyone can enlighten me more then Lamont already has.

The Inosanto Academy is probably where I will be training at once I begin(Its a drive but itll be damn worth it).  From what I've learned from reading stuff about the academy is that they train more so in the self defense portion more so then the sport/tournament side of Escrima.  THAT is what Im looking for.  In all honesty, Im not looking to be in tournaments.  I've been in tournaments my entire life for many yrs through sports which Ive enjoyed but this is entirely different.

The stick fighting portions Ive seen at the places Ive been seemed more of a training technique for hand/eye cordination.  I know stick fighting is apart of the art but I also know there's a lot of self defense involved as well(Panatukan, Dumog, etc..).  Thats the stuff Im looking for.  The Filipino Boxing(Panatukan), the Empty hand self defense techniques(Locks, grapples, strikes), and Knife defenses(Whether it be Knives or a pen).  I want to make sure Im training in the correct stuff before I invest more time and effort into it and I think thats all based off what the schools around me teach.  

I couldnt get much of an idea how OC Kickboxing teaches their Escrima(based off the Lacoste/inosanto system) because the time I went in there I couldnt get a feel of how serious they were on whether it was Tournament based or self defense based.  I think I'd have to ask questions at the schools to get my answers.  I have Emailed Inosantos academy atleast 4 or 5 times and have yet to recieve any responses


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## Blindside (Apr 28, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> I couldnt get much of an idea how OC Kickboxing teaches their Escrima(based off the Lacoste/inosanto system) because the time I went in there I couldnt get a feel of how serious they were on whether it was Tournament based or self defense based. I think I'd have to ask questions at the schools to get my answers. I have Emailed Inosantos academy atleast 4 or 5 times and have yet to recieve any responses


 
You have spent 2 months not training, trying to figure out where to train.  As long as neither place requires stupidly long contracts (I wouldn't sign anything over three months as a beginner), then I would go down and sign up to the place that is nearby tomorrow.  Give it at least two months and maybe three, and then decide if you like it or not.


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## MJS (Apr 28, 2009)

Like any other art, I'd also say that alot comes down to how you're training.  However, the FMAs are excellent for self defense, and anyone who says that they're not, IMO, doesn't know what they're talking about, and needs to get on the mat with a good FMAist!  

The training that I do, is primarily geared for SD purposes.  However, from time to time, we do stickspar.  Its good to do that, as it really opens your eyes as to what you can/can't do, when the pace is picked up.  On the other hand, SD can still be gained from the sparring concept.  In other words, you can pick something, say a disarm, pick up the pace of it, and get a more realistic, SD feel to it.  This is where the sparring will help, due to the fact that things will be moving quicker.  

So, I can take a #1 strike, from Modern Arnis, and have my partner really swing at me.  Obviously its wise to use some gear, but I can assure you, the feeling that you'll get will be much different, than the stationary practice.  Will you pull off a textbook disarm?  Maybe, maybe not, however, what we should be looking for is being able to pull out the concepts and principles to aid in your defense.

Mike


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## fangjian (Apr 28, 2009)

In my opinion most FMA is as good for self defense as most other martial arts like Karate, Muay Thai etc.  The live sparring is always good for learning how to control your emotions and getting use to someone hitting you.  At my school, along with live grappling and kickboxing, you have to learn at least 3 ways of countering common attacks like headlocks, rear chokes, bear hugs etc.   You could be a BJJ blackbelt or an awesome stickfighter but if someone puts you in a simple headlock or hammerlock and you're not use to dealing with it, you could be screwed.


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## Rich Parsons (Apr 28, 2009)

OCman44 said:


> Hello everybody,



I am nobody. Not Everybody. As in Nobody is home.  
(* Always lead with a joke even if it is the truth but laughter has their attention *)




OCman44 said:


> I've been continuing my research on the Filipino Martial art trying to learn everything about it that there is before my training but there's a few things that boggle me about it.



As others have stated, go and train. Stop talking and DO. 

I will give you an example. As a young kid someone told you that 1 + 1 = 2. Right? I hope so. 

Now did you use this and add and know that 1 + 1 = 2 without knowing the proof on why 1 + 1 = 2? I would assume so, as most people are not ready for the proof when they are just starting our. 

Go train, and then ask some questions form your training. They will be specific. Not this appearance and perception issue of others. Do you like it or not? And to find out go and try it. 



OCman44 said:


> My main reason behind starting kali is for the "Self defense" and some other reasons but mainly for the self defense aspect of it.



Self defense is a great reason. The other reasons make me wonder, why you want to train, but we all have our reasons. 




OCman44 said:


> Now, from what I've learned is that Kali has a "Stick" fighting art & a "Self defense" form.




Yes but NO. 

Kali is a stick fighting and a blade and an empty hand system that uses body position and joint locks to attack or defend against your opponent. All of this can be used in your self defense.

NOTE: THEY ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE!




OCman44 said:


> The thing that confuses me is that Im trying to figure out what the differences are and why some ppl claim it as an amazing, practical form of self defense and others say its just stick fighting..



Who are these some people? 

Are they ubiquitous *"THEY"?*

Point out a post on the internet where an FMA practitioner call it just stick fighting.


Even I who teaches Balintawak which is a stick optimized system do not say that system is only stick fighting. 

Could you be misunderstanding what people are printing or saying? 




OCman44 said:


> The "Self defense" form where you have the Empty hand, knife/any other object you can pick up from daily use and use it with some techniques learned from the training is the part im trying to find out about.



Now I am confused. Empty hand (* Check *), knife (* check *), and any other object you can pick up (* check *), which should include a stick can be used. So why is the stick separated? 

Are these your words, which I expect, or can you point out an example? 


As I stated above, all of it is self defense capable. 




OCman44 said:


> The actual stick fighting aspect of the art is primarily used in tournaments and less so for self defense. Thats how Im seing it



This confuses me as well. As, the sticks give you nice long weapons to practice against. The reaction time required to go against them full timing is good. So, how does this now help one's self defense? 

Let me check my memory for weapons that resemble a rattan stick I have been attacked with:

1) Axe Handle
2) Axe (* yes a real axe with a blade *)
3) Tire Iron
4) Bumper Jack poll
5) Pool Cue
6) Table Leg
7) Hoe (* yes a tool used in a garden *)
8) Rake
9) Boken sword
10) Sword
11) Golf Club
12) Baseball bat (* Number one selling sports equipment item in Northern Ireland a few years ago and they do not play Baseball at all there. *) 
13) 2x4 various lengths
14) 2x6 various lengths (* These are harder to hang on too so I listed them separately. 
14) a car (* psst Rich this does not resemble a stick like device. *)
14) (* sorry had to re enter 14 as the above was not allowed *) Flash lights of various sizes
15) oh yeah various sticks as well. 


I guess the stick training was worthless for that type of self defense. (* Please not dodge the car trying to run me down I credit to be light on my feet from stick fighting and moving so I really think it should count. *POUT* *) 



Even the sports form of WEKAF has it self defense applications. At worst it is helping you build endurance while wearing armor and keep moving. At best you learn how to hit and block and move to optimize your points on yout opponent. Which from my limited understanding I use in my self defense. 





OCman44 said:


> Now, the training methods used in the Self defense portion consist of the flow drills and other drills used with the sticks correct? I know that the sticks are used for training hand/eye cordination.



They are used to train the hand eye and also to teach you techniques that you could use any thing with from a stick to a knife or a sword or to your empty hand, but this would be obvious, if you would walk into a class and train and ask an instructor some of your questions do they could demonstrate. 

But, lots people here have said it is all the same, but I guess you have not listened or read or understood what they were talking about. 




OCman44 said:


> In otherwords Im trying to find out if Kali has 2 sides to its training.



It only has one side. Try to touch it and flip it over and you sill see the same side. The only difference is in the tool you try to flip it over with may change, but it only has one side. 

I know this sounds like crap, but think on it, train on it and then think on it some more. 




OCman44 said:


> 1 for tournaments(not as much self defense) and 1 FOR self defense training(real world fights).



If you are looking at a WEKAF training program then yes, it might seem like it is just stick fighting, but if you had trained you could see more. You coudl also explain more to the people who question. 

There is no place like a training hall.

There is no place like a training hall.

There is no place like a training hall.




OCman44 said:


> The one im looking for is more so of the real world self defense and I think I've said it in my posts prior to this one but Im trying to clarify the differences between "stick fighting" kali, and self defense kali.



Real world? Is that like the 5tR33+ man? I am just tryng to understand your point. Where you are coming from. 

If you ask me, (* And I know you have not, but I will tell you anyway *), I think you are afraid. I think you have been beat up or assaulted or scared or mougged or robbed.  That sucks. It really really sucks. Be it from a friend or family or from an unknown. But, talking about it will not get you any closer to knowing real work self defense. You need to go out and start practicing. 

If it is all about a class name, then go ask that instructor. That would be like me asking you why my boss did not like my last presentation. I would have to ask my boss. 

So, while I support people asking questions. It is great. People should ask questions. It helps traffic here on the site. It answers problems. It gives people entertainment. It drives some crazy. 

But, if you are trying to get people to tell you that Stick Fighting Kali at one trainng place is better than Self Defense Kali at another, so you can or othes can point out people expressing opinions, then you are getting real close to be a troll. If not being a troll. So let us hope that this has nothing to do with it. But it is a thought that goes through my head. 





OCman44 said:


> Reason Im posting this is because anytime I talk to someone about Kali they always say, "Oh its just stick fighting" when in reality Kali is a deadly form of self defense as well thats not just based off sticks but everyday items that you come across that can be turned into a weapon with the use of kali techniques.




There will always be people who are closed minded. They will think TKD is only kicking to the head. They will think TSD is just like TKD. (* They are different *) There will be some who will say that anyone with a Katana will win a fight, while others will bet on the little dog in the fight. There will be those that say Kali or FMA is Stick fighting only, while others say ... , . 


Get over what other people are saying. 

Get over what other people are thinking. 

Do you enjoy your training? (* To answer this you need to go train first *)

If you enjoy your training, then who cares what the other people are saying. If they do nto have an open mind, then let them continue to be closed. And when their self defense is surprised by someone doing something they do not expect or understand then hopefully they survive long enough to realize the errors of their way.


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## arnisador (Apr 28, 2009)

geezer said:


> If you're really interested in studying an FMA, find a good instructor and start training.



I agree! You'll have to "see it to believe it"!


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