# Report saying America was a safe haven for Nazis after the war



## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681

I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.


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## crushing (Nov 15, 2010)

"Safe haven for Nazis" sounds a bit exagerrated.  According to the article, some scientists were allowed in to the US.  Here it is 2010 and former Nazis are still be deported from the US.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-guard-to-be-deported-from-US-to-Austria.html

There are many, many stories like like this over the years.


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

crushing said:


> "Safe haven for Nazis" sounds a bit exagerrated. According to the article, some scientists were allowed in to the US. Here it is 2010 and former Nazis are still be deported from the US.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-guard-to-be-deported-from-US-to-Austria.html
> 
> There are many, many stories like like this over the years.


 
Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.


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## crushing (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.


 
Yes, the US became a safe haven for some scientists that apparently were Nazis, but the title implied, perhaps purposefully, something more general.

The former Soviet Union was a safe haven for some, Australia another for others and many went to Central America.  There have been safe havens around the world for Nazis.  Especially if they could contribute to those countries in certain ways.  It wouldn't surprise me if there was a bidding war between the US and Russia to recruit the best and brightest scientists that may have been forced to swear allegience to the Nazi party in Hitler's Germany.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681
> 
> I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.



At that time, the partitioning of Germany was occurring.  It was becoming clear that the Soviet Union was to become an enemy (the beginning of the 'Cold War') and we wanted to get those assets out of Germany so that they could not be used against us by the Soviets.  This is my understanding of it.  I do not believe that there was any favorable Nazi sentiment lingering about; we just wanted the people and the knowledge they had.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.



Mmm. Otoh I cannot help but think that this is like calling a prison a safe haven for criminals.

And from a pragmatic pov like intelligence:
Yes, many high value assets were brought to the US for extended debriefing.
Russia did the same thing. People like von Braun were highly valuable. They could have shot him of course, but that would be (in the eyes of the intelligence services) a huge waste.

The war was won, let bygones be bygones and get as much of the spoils as possible. Let's not worry about who killed whom. Instead rejoice and celebrate the happy occasion of getting valuable info (parody of the sir Lancelot scene of the holy grail  so don't get angry)


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.


 
hmmmm... Josef Mengele and friends went to South America....funny...no mention of that... 

More USA bashing, it has become the hobby of many these days  


Now to the report...is this true? ...to some extent yes.... now if a flame post is what you want.... now can we get into the very big part that the British Empire played in the whole middle east issue and helping start terrorism and making it what it is today.... Or we could get into the British Empire&#8217;s use of social Darwinism to subjugate entire societies if you prefer.. Or since we are bringing up history we could get into who was very instrumental in saving Britain and Europe during WW II... 

Bottom-line... no one that is or was ever considered a world power or super power is free from guilt due to having more than 1 skeleton in its closet it would prefer to forget

This whole thing, IMO, is silly, inflammatory and basically a posting that is just trying to start a fight... and there is enough of that going on all over the world for me thanks... don't need more here... and I will have no more to do with it.


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## punisher73 (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681
> 
> I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.


 
That's like blaming England for the Holocaust because they refused to accept Jews from Germany to occupied territory in Africa(asked before the "Final Solution" was enacted) or because England did not attend the conference that they were invited to for discussion of the 'jewish problem'. 

Every "civilized" country has done something that seemed prudent at the time, but hindsight shows was a mistake.  Atrocities aside, their scientists were leaps and bounds ahead of everyone else.  It was a scramble for many of the nations to get as many of their scientists as they could to help out their own countries.


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> hmmmm... Josef Mengele and friends went to South America....funny...no mention of that...
> 
> More USA bashing, it has become the hobby of many these days
> 
> ...


 

Well the report came from the *New York Times* so do they bash America? it's not in the British media, it's from AOL another American owned media outlet.

Flame war? no, I didn't post that America is a safe haven _I said report says_, that report is from an *American* source in an *American* paper, I was inviting comments.

another* American* paper reporting this
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/nat...says_Nazi_hunters_kept_some_for_the_U_S_.html


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well the report came from the *New York Times* so do they bash America? it's not in the British media, it's from AOL another American owned media outlet.
> 
> Flame war? no, I didn't post that America is a safe haven _I said report says_, that report is from an *American* source in an *American* paper, I was inviting comments.
> 
> ...


 

from... news.aol.co.uk <---- uk

And maybe it is just me but I did not get the impression that you were asking for comments from either of your posts



Tez3 said:


> http://news.aol.co.uk/world-news/story/us-condemned-over-nazi-settlers/1397681
> 
> I knew about Braun the rocket specialist being brought to America to work at Nasa even after he had worked on the V1 and V2 rockets that were launched at Britain to kill it's people but this report says there's more Germans allowed to settle in safty in America.


 
And I particularly did not get that impression from this one... this was, at least to me...much more accusatory



Tez3 said:


> Well if they weren't being prosecuted for either war crimes or crimes against humanity damn right the US was a safe haven for them. if they lived in the country knowing they were safe from being made to account for their actions yes it is a safe haven for them.


 

But then maybe it is just me... shall we talk about the evils of the empire now or is the US still in the sights


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## elder999 (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Well I was inviting comments.


 
It's old news. Heck, our military used Nazi concentration camp data on "experiments" with freezing-in fact, most of what we know about how the human body reacts to freezing comes from those events.  

And, a while ago Tez posted something about our space program and how we couldn't have done it without the British (or the Aussies, for that matter), but we really couldn't have done it without those _Germans._ Were they truly Nazis, or like many others who had to join the party, just Germans? I couldn't say. 

We sure did grab as many as we could, though.....


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Here's the original New York Times article about the *American Justice Department's* report. 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=Report%20on%20Nazis%20being%20brought%20to%20America&st=cse

My OP says merely that I knew about von Braun and that the report says more were brought to America, there's no accusation in there but I do have an intense personal interest in the whereabouts of Nazis. If this report isn't true say so or add your comments on this *American* report.
I called it a safe haven which is the report is true it would have been. If they'd been taken to the UK I would have asked and said exactly the same questions and words. 
People seem to be very defensive over something which appeared in American newspapers, with my history how can you not expect me to take an interest? You are very quick to judge and very quick to defend against accusations that aren't there.

I'm very aware of Britain's part in the refusing of Jewish refugees, in it's conduct of sending Jews back to the camps they came from after the war was over, of putting Jews in a camp on Cyprus, of their withdrawal out of Palestine before Independance after disarming the Jews and arming the Arabs. I'm very aware of the pograms in the UK, I live not many miles away from one in York at Cliffords Tower, I'm aware of the pogrom in Wales in the 1900s etc etc etc. 


Elder I'm sure it wasn't me who posted anything about the space programme, I don't know anything about it!!


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## elder999 (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Elder I'm sure it wasn't me who posted anything about the space programme, I don't know anything about it!!


 


Tez3 said:


> A great many people educated in many countries worked on the moon projectas well as Americans. The money of course was American.
> 
> Btw how many of you use Nokia phones or enjoy a sauna, both very civilised additions to the human condition.


 
There's another, somewhere..........:lol:


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

elder999 said:


> There's another, somewhere..........:lol:


 
Ah that but it doesn't say I know anything about the technical stuff lo, I thought you meant that! it was a thread about education! My scientific knowledge would fill a aspirin if that! I was racking my brains trying to think when I'd posted on something technical, it made my brain hurt!



http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB331/index.htm

Now I don't know if the National Archive is political or purely academic but they started it all it seems.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> My OP says merely that I knew about von Braun and that the report says more were brought to America, there's no accusation in there but I do have an intense personal interest in the whereabouts of Nazis. If this report isn't true say so or add your comments on this *American* report.


 
But I already said it was true to some extent. 



Tez3 said:


> I called it a safe haven which is the report is true it would have been. If they'd been taken to the UK I would have asked and said exactly the same questions and words.
> People seem to be very defensive over something which appeared in American newspapers, with my history how can you not expect me to take an interest? You are very quick to judge and very quick to defend against accusations that aren't there.


 
Safe haven for Nazis.... not in general.... a few... maybe... but apparently Mengele did not beleive it was he went to South America

And yes I am quick to... yadda yadda yadda who cares whatever.... and I shall leave it at that because the rest just becomes an argument... and a silly one at that


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## crushing (Nov 15, 2010)

Dig around some more and you will also probably find stories that the CIA hired Nazi scientists that were recuited by and went to Russia to spy for the US.  I wouldn't be surprised if they were hired by the CIA before "choosing" Russia.

Tez,  If anything, you've exposed a double-standard in America.  Former Nazi steelworkers get deported whilst former Nazi scientists get to work for the US government.  At least it doesn't appear you had that double standard.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article555186.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/feb/04/secondworldwar.germany
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1525553.stm


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng, I was making no accusations, I'm well aware of the attitude of governments (all governments) towards what is expedient and how they will get into bed with anything and anyone they think with benefit them with the excuse it's for the good of the country, mankind or whatever. However I wasn't pointing the finger nor was I bashing America, I don't know why you think I was and to start accusing me of that is unfair. I used the would 'if' and made sure it said it was the report. To start Brit bashing in return is also unfair.

Like many Jews the subject of the Nazis and the war is never in the past, it is with us constantly. Those of us that have elderly relatives who survived the war are reminded always, the bane of old age is that one remembers the past easier than the future and they suffer now. Those of us that lack relatives because they didn't survive the Nazis are also always reminded by their absence. 

To have former Nazis here is appalling, the government's decision to let them stay is terribly wrong especially after it had already sent many Russians back to the USSR where they knew they would be executed by the communists. There are people here who are trying to have these Nazis brought to answer to the courts as to their conduct during the war but many think it should be left to lie. I think it extraordinary to allow prisoners of war to settle in this country. I'm also disgusted by this country's use of translators. !n Iraq and then leaving them there to be executed also.

The point the Nazi hunters like Simon Wiesanthal have always made is that we must chase them down however long it takes to bring them to justice because it sends the message to all that we, as human beings, will not tolerate mass murder and what is now called ethhnic cleansing. And truly we must not leave these people to their comfortable lives, even if we have to bring old men to court it must be done. The Saddams, the Mladics, the Milosevics, the Karadzics etc of this world must know that however long it takes we will come for them.

http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441467&ct=8876241


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Xue Sheng, I was making no accusations, I'm well aware of the attitude of governments (all governments) towards what is expedient and how they will get into bed with anything and anyone they think with benefit them with the excuse it's for the good of the country, mankind or whatever. However I wasn't pointing the finger nor was I bashing America, I don't know why you think I was and to start accusing me of that is unfair. I used the would 'if' and made sure it said it was the report. To start Brit bashing in return is also unfair.
> 
> Like many Jews the subject of the Nazis and the war is never in the past, it is with us constantly. Those of us that have elderly relatives who survived the war are reminded always, the bane of old age is that one remembers the past easier than the future and they suffer now. Those of us that lack relatives because they didn't survive the Nazis are also always reminded by their absence.
> 
> ...


 

Who is Brit bashing? Historic facts be historic facts not bashing and like the supplied, albeit somewhat sensationalized, link to the article about the Nazi harboring US, what I stated were facts.

But surprisingly this thread has left me in a rather strange mood... I think I need to make another thread


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 15, 2010)

elder999 said:


> It's old news. Heck, our military used Nazi concentration camp data on "experiments" with freezing-in fact, most of what we know about how the human body reacts to freezing comes from those events.
> 
> And, a while ago Tez posted something about our space program and how we couldn't have done it without the British (or the Aussies, for that matter), but we really couldn't have done it without those _Germans._ Were they truly Nazis, or like many others who had to join the party, just Germans? I couldn't say.
> 
> We sure did grab as many as we could, though.....



Along those lines, there have been serious discussions about the ethics of using data gathered from the torture and killing of Jews by Nazis during WWII.  The questions are deep, there are no easy answers.

http://www.jlaw.com/Articles/NaziMedEx.html


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## Empty Hands (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The point the Nazi hunters like Simon Wiesanthal have always made is that we must chase them down however long it takes to bring them to justice because it sends the message to all that we, as human beings, will not tolerate mass murder and what is now called ethhnic cleansing.



I agree with that.  I think this situation is a bit more complex, however.  I don't think "defecting" scientists like Von Braun were ever connected to the murder or mistreatment of Jews or other prisoners (correct me if I'm wrong).  They should be punished for what they actually did, not merely the regime they worked for.  Choosing whether or not to work with the Nazis was hardly a simple choice, after all.  I'm sure their lives would be forfeit if they said no.  

So yes, Von Braun helped design rockets which took British lives.  Kruppe and Messerschmit designed weapons which took Allied lives as well.  Everyone involved down to the common man riveting sheet metal did so as well.  At what point is it unfair to call them "Nazis" and hold them accountable for war crimes, when we would never consider weapon designers and manufacturers working for ourselves or other countries as war criminals?  What about every soldier in the Luftwaffe or Wehrmacht who actually pulled the triggers, can we label all of them Nazis and war criminals too?

Unless the scientists can be connected to important and influential support of the regime (i.e. important industrial backers so critical in 1933) or murder/abuse of prisoners, then it hardly makes sense to call them Nazis and war criminals.  It goes against all of our earlier standards.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 15, 2010)

Likewise, consider the industries that created weapons and material for Germany and Japan during WWII.  I've owned a Krups coffeemaker and a Mitsubishi automobile.  Both were willing manufacturers of weapons and material for their respective country's war efforts.

What does this mean for us?  What should it mean?


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Who is Brit bashing? Historic facts be historic facts not bashing and like the supplied, albeit somewhat sensationalized, link to the article about the Nazi harboring US, what I stated were facts.
> 
> But surprisingly this thread has left me in a rather strange mood... I think I need to make another thread


 

TBH I think you are being childish. I see nothing sensational about the link supplied, I find nothing that you should take umbrage about in it other than perhaps at your government or government dept of the time that allowed them in and to stay. You are making an argument where there is none offered from me and if anything you are being obtuse about why I find it a subject so close to my heart as well as many others. 

Why, too, you should be so defensive baffles me and why you should think that it's American bashing I don't know.

If there are still these Nazis alive there are many of us that would like to see them investigated and put on trial *if* the evidence warrants it. These were our families that were killed and we want justice. this isn't about blaming America this is about finding these people and finding the truth about what they did. I believe you have no limit on the time you catch murderers in, so why should they not be investigated? For all you know they may have killed American prisoners of war (86 American soldiers who were prisoners of war were massacred by a Waffen SS unit on 17th Dec 1944 at Malmedy, Belgium) Wouldn't you want those SS to answer to their crimes? 

_"In 1980, prosecutors filed a motion that misstated the facts in asserting that checks of C.I.A. and __F.B.I.__ records revealed no information on the Nazi past of Tscherim Soobzokov, *a former Waffen SS soldier*. In fact, the report said, the Justice Department knew that Soobzokov had advised the C.I.A. of his SS connection after he arrived in the United States_.

From 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/14/us/14nazis.html?pagewanted=2&_r=1

_"The report also examines the case of Arthur L. Rudolph, a Nazi scientist who ran the Mittelwerk munitions factory. He was brought to the United States in 1945 for his rocket-making expertise under__ Operation Paperclip,__ an American program that recruited scientists who had worked in Nazi Germany. (Rudolph has been honored by __NASA__ and is credited as the father of the Saturn V rocket.) _
_The report cites a 1949 memo from the Justice Departments No. 2 official urging __immigration__ officers to let Rudolph back in the country after a stay in Mexico, saying that a failure to do so would be to the detriment of the national interest. _
_Justice Department investigators later found evidence that Rudolph was much more actively involved in __exploiting slave laborers at Mittelwerk__ than he or American intelligence officials had acknowledged, the report says."_

_"In chronicling the cases of Nazis who were aided by American intelligence officials, the report cites help that __C.I.A.__ officials provided in 1954 to __Otto Von Bolschwing__, *an associate of Adolf Eichmann who had helped develop the initial plans to purge Germany* *of the Jews* and who later worked for the C.I.A. in the United States. In a chain of memos, C.I.A. officials debated what to do if Von Bolschwing were confronted about his past  whether to deny any Nazi affiliation or explain it away on the basis of extenuating circumstances, the report said_"

Can't you see how very serious this is to us, you pout and seem to think it's a case of blaming America for everything. Look at the people they let in and tell me that you think it's a trifling thing,how can we not sit up and take notice! Otto Von Bolschwing helped with plans to wipe out all Jews in German and more than likely not all other 'non desirables', can you not see how immense that is? It's not the petty oh blame America for everything 'game' you assume, this is crimes against humanity on a huge scale, the elimination of an entire population.

The New York Times article also says
_"More than 300 Nazi persecutors have been deported, stripped of citizenship or blocked from entering the United States since the creation of the O.S.I., which __was merged with another unit__ this year"_

The above is very encouraging and deserves praise.

What I believe too is that the American people who had no knowledge of this at the time will as good decent people will be horrified at the thought that these monsters were allowed into their country, I believe if it had been known at the time there would have been an outcry and the bringing of these people into America would be stopped. Surely making these criminals citizens and giving them benefits of life in America is a huge slap in the face to those who fought and died for freedom. Perhaps that's what you should be mad at not me.


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Likewise, consider the industries that created weapons and material for Germany and Japan during WWII. I've owned a Krups coffeemaker and a Mitsubishi automobile. Both were willing manufacturers of weapons and material for their respective country's war efforts.
> 
> What does this mean for us? What should it mean?


 
Perhaps nothing to you and me, perhaps it should mean nothing.

 However we are talking about men, who may well be still alive, who killed a great number of people, who planned the destruction of an entire people, who murdered and tortured their way across Europe. Shouldn't they be investigated and if there's evidence taken to stand trial for these crimes?


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## elder999 (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> TBH I think you are being childish.


 
Pot? Kettle? See below.




Tez3 said:


> Can't you see how very serious this is to us, you pout and seem to think it's a case of blaming America for everything.


 
In the case of exploiting slave labor, one couldn't be involved in German industry during WWII, be German, and not be involved in the use of slave labor, ala Oscar Schindler.This in itself is hardly an indictment. More to the point, the end of the war in Europe saw special units created by the Americans that were tasked with getting Nazi scientists and keeping them away from the Soviets *and *the British. The Soviets had units tasked with getting Nazi scientists and keeping them away from the Americans and the British.

The British had units-one led by Ian Fleming, and tasked with getting the secrets of Germany's proto-jet plane- that were tasked with getting Nazi scientists, and keeping them away from the Soviets and the Americans-who were throwing all of our weight around, running the show, and grudgingly sharing the secrets of the atomic bomb. It's more than likely that the Americans did get the lion's share of scientists-127 Nazi rocket scientists alone came to the U.S. as part of Operation Paperclip-but the British did get their share, who became, presumably, British citizens.



Tez3 said:


> What I believe too is that the American people who had no knowledge of this at the time will as good decent people will be horrified at the thought that these monsters were allowed into their country, I believe if it had been known at the time there would have been an outcry and the bringing of these people into America would be stopped. Surely making these criminals citizens and giving them benefits of life in America is a huge slap in the face to those who fought and died for freedom. Perhaps that's what you should be mad at not me.


 

Nah. They're scientists. For a great many of them, as long as they were permitted to pursue their work, they could care less who's doing the grunt work, or what they're having for lunch, or if their hair is on fire-never mind dealing with their personal feelings about the regime they're working for, or what's being done around them. For some, like Heisenberg and a few others, the excesses of Hitler and his government caused them to surreptitiously undermine the efforts they were involved with-or leave. Those that remained wound up in foregin hands at wars end, American, Soviet *and* British..........
......it's just that the Brits  didn't get the best ones, never really accomplished much with them, and , Soviet black-hole cone of silence notwithstanding, are better at keeping their mouths shut than we are.


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## Blade96 (Nov 15, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> At that time, the partitioning of Germany was occurring.  It was becoming clear that the Soviet Union was to become an enemy (the beginning of the 'Cold War') and we wanted to get those assets out of Germany so that they could not be used against us by the Soviets.  This is my understanding of it.  I do not believe that there was any favorable Nazi sentiment lingering about; we just wanted the people and the knowledge they had.



That happened. The USSR also kidnapped german scientists and took them to the USSR so get germany to pay their large war reparations. 

And I think 'US became a safe haven for nazis after the war' is a bit of  a misleading of what it actually was, don't you think?


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

So the American soldiers who fought their way across Europe, who liberated the concentration camps wouldn't care that Nazis were going to be sitting in their country nice and safe after the war, oh well if you say they'll be fine with it I'm sure they will. 

Tscherim Soobzokow wasn't a scientist, he was Waffen SS who was recruited by the CIA to spy for them.

Otto Von Bolschwing wasn't a scientist he was a high ranking SS officer, involved in planning the Final Solution.

Excuse the scientists by all means but the rest? Are you really comfortable having the SS for neighbours?


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> That happened. The USSR also kidnapped german scientists and took them to the USSR so get germany to pay their large war reparations.
> 
> And I think 'US became a safe haven for nazis after the war' is a bit of a misleading of what it actually was, don't you think?


 

'Safe haven' were the words used by the American branch of the Simon Wiesanthal Foundation, take it up with them.

_"For more information, please contact the Center's Public Relations Department, 310-553-9036, join the Center on Facebook, __www.facebook.com/simonwiesenthalcenter__, or follow @simonwiesenthal for news updates sent direct to your Twitter page or mobile device."
_

From here
http://www.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=lsKWLbPJLnF&b=4441257


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## elder999 (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> So the American soldiers who fought their way across Europe, who liberated the concentration camps wouldn't care that Nazis were going to be sitting in their country nice and safe after the war, oh well if you say they'll be fine with it I'm sure they will.
> 
> Tscherim Soobzokow wasn't a scientist, he was Waffen SS who was recruited by the CIA to spy for them.
> 
> ...


 

Well, I dunno-were any of them arrested for murder, or molesting children, or committing atrocities? 

Are any of them still alive, or not drooling and incontinent?

We actually had some German emigres in our neighborhood who were (former) Nazis, when I was a kid. I can't say that they were favorite neighbors, but they never made me particularly uncomfortable-I don't know what he did in the war, and never reallhy got along with them-especially when we were rotten teenagers working on cars out at the curb or playing guitars late into the morning hours-but, hey, I can't say that my friends and I were anybody's favorite neighbors either.....:lol:


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 15, 2010)

Well in order to teach or conduct research at a German University during that time you had to be a member of the party, (If I recall correctly). Millions joined the Nazi party in order to advance their business and academic goals. Same as joining the communist party in China today, it helps your career.

As for members of the SS same thing, most of them were elite units used on the front lines as infantry and armour units, only a small percentage were concentration camp guards and such. 

Tens of thousands of ex German service men immigrated to North and South America after the war, probably 99% of them were normal soldiers. The bastards who are war criminals should never have been used for any purpose, by any government, expect to test the tensile strength of a piece of rope


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## Empty Hands (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Excuse the scientists by all means but the rest? Are you really comfortable having the SS for neighbours?



This is exactly the distinction we are trying to get at.  You, or the authors you cite, are conflating "Nazi/SS/Camp Butcher" with "Scientist" so it's impossible to tell which is which.  I doubt anyone here, and certainly not myself, would oppose charging former SS murderers with their crimes.  However, apparently mixed in with that group, are scientists who can't be fairly described as Nazi Murderers.  All I am saying, all I think anyone here is saying, is that's it's unfair to describe all the scientists gathered in the war as Nazi Murderers without knowing more about them.

These distinctions are important.  Otherwise we condemn every German who lived through that time as a murderer, which is not something I'm prepared to do.


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

So it's alright to profit from the scientists work because they were only scientists and wouldn't have dreamed of being Nazis? We shouldn't investigate them, we should assume they are all innocent because they are scientists?

Ken, in 1933 the SS comprised 52,000 men, in 1936 Himmler put them into key postisions in the country. In 1944 the Waffen SS were formed, it grew to 150,000 in six months, the SS Deathhead Units were also formed to man the concentration camps, in 1944 there were 24,000 in that unti and 594,000 in the Waffen SS. The Nuremburg trials declared them a criminal organisation responsible for most of the crimes against humanity.committed in the last war.
In Occupied Norway the German troops were under the command of the Waffen SS and the SS, it was the same in Occupied Holland, Danmark and the rest of Occupied Europe. Look at these lists by no means a full one and see what the SS did.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres.html
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/massacres_east.html

And this one,
"THE SAGAN EXECUTIONS (March, 1944)
The Gestapos most cold blooded act of butchery was the murder of 50 RAF officers from the POW camp, Stalag Luft III at Sagan in Silesia. Hundreds of officers had a hand in the building of a tunnel, 28ft down below one of the huts in the British north compound. It ran for 360 feet, passing under the wire at a depth of 20ft. The breakout on March 24th. 1944, saw the escape of 79 men before the tunnel was discovered. The last three men out gave themselves up to the guards in the hope that they could delay the search for the rest. Hitler issued a personal order that fifty escapees were to be shot on recapture. Within weeks, all had been recaptured, except three who eventually managed to reach England. After their capture, the officers were confined to various jails near where the arrests took place. Early in the morning they were taken out of their cells and in groups of two or three, were bundled into cars in company with their guards, and driven out into the country. On the autobahn, near a wood, the car would stop and the prisoners allowed out to relieve themselves. While performing this natural function, the guards would sneak up behind them and shoot them in the neck. Their bodies were then taken to the nearest crematorium. Any money the officers had on them were taken to help pay for the cremation. When the urns containing the ashes of the murdered officers began arriving at Stalag Luft III, the enormity of the massacre was revealed. Most urns had the officers name, date cremated and place-names such as Gorlitz, Brux, Breslau , Liegnitz, Kiel, Munich, Saarbrucken and Danzig. Most urns had the dates, 29th, 30th and 31st March, 1944. Official Gestapo files noted that the officers were shot while trying to escape. After the war, the RAF Special Investigation Branch, led by Squadron Leader Francis P. McKenna, ex 622 Squadron from Mildenhall, began its search for the culprits. It took over three years to bring the murderers to justice. Of the 72 culprits traced, 21 were found guilty and hanged, 17 imprisoned, 11 committed suicide, the rest died, disappeared or were acquitted."

The last one was found in 1968.

http://www.rafpa.com/books.htm


Far from being just combat troops the SS and the Waffen SS were the scourge and terror of Europe.

An article from Spiegel on ordinary people committing 'Nazi' crimes.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,542245,00.html

You could also look up about this.

 BELGIUM Bande 24 DEC 44 34 Village men are executed by members of members of No. 8 *SS *Commando for Special Duties. 

Malmendy 17 DEC 44 Stavelot 18 DEC 44 130 Belgians (67 men, 47 women and 23 children) are executed for harboring wounded American soldiers

FRANCE La Paradis 26 May 1940 97 members of the Royal Norfolk Regiment are executed by members of the 2d *SS* Infantry Regiment Wormhoudt

 27 May 1940 85 British POWs are placed in a barn by members of No 7 CO, 2d BN *SS* Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler Grenades are thrown in. Survivors are pulled out 5 at a time and executed

 Le Mesnil-Patty 8 June 44 35 Canadian POWs executed by 12* SS* Panzer Division Authie

 7 June 44 40 Canadian POWs executed one by one by 26 *SS* Panzer Grenadier Regiment. 

I've already mentioned the shooting of unarmed Americans.


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## Tez3 (Nov 15, 2010)

I think as far as World War Two is concerned we have a vast culteral divide between Europe and America. You see the war as the past, the Germans as being old, defeated enemies you can afford to be magnanimous to and the Nazi scientists as merely being useful, for us we have have deep deep scars and many problems in Europe that stem from the war. Many Europeans still remember the horrors of Occupation, if they don't their parents and grandparents do, it still colours much of European politics today.

When Americans say well we came and saved you, do they actually know what they saved us from? Can any sane man imagine what was going on all over Europe and not be affected? Not just the concentration camps, there was the euthanasia of the mentally and physically disabled, the rounding up of the gypsies, the trade unionists, of anyone who spoke agsint the Nazis, the terror of the knock on the door. Reprisals against villages and towns, the Germans even massacred their Allies, the Italians. Unspeakable horrors in the camps, forced labour in factories, starvation. Entire villages destoyed, possessions taken away. people led away to forests to be shot, lorries turned into mobile gas chambers, children murdered. It was endless terror and fear. Millions of Russians died, millions of people all over Europe. Do you see why we are so grateful Americans came into the war? but how we don't understand each other when it comes to the Germans of that period?

Europe at the end of the war was devastated, town, cities and villages destroyed, millions displaced, people who had been made to work for the Nazis thousands of miles away from their homes trying to get back to find loves ones, refugees, concentration camp survivors all trying to claw their way back to life. It's estimated 50 million people lost their homes. How do you think we couldn't, even now be disturbed by this? When I was born several years after the war, there was still rationing, still bomb sites all over the cities, still great poverty and people trying to rebuild their lives, well into the sixties people were still trying to recover. In some places it wasn't until the seventies that the bomb sites were finally rebuilt on. All over Europe it was the same, if you look at the memorials in European towns you will see the names of the people killed in the war, not just the soldiers but the old men and women, the children, the mothers, sister, aunts, uncles all massacred by the Nazis. There are families all over Europe with few relatives because they we killed in the war, again not as soldiers but massacred by the Nazis. Europe lost _two thirds_ of it's civilian population.  How can we not blame the Germans who were of an age to be in the war? How can we see them and see innocence? The good Germans who protested, who tried to prevent the Nazis, they were rounded up and killed, guillotined usually, the Nazis guillotined more people the French did in the Revolution.

You shrug your shoulders and think a few German scientists are harmless, useful even but you don't see what we see, that they were part and parcel of the horror that was inflicted on Europe and that there are no innocent Germans from the war time. You may think that's unfair, it's not right but think if instead of Europe it had been America. It may not be right to blame a whole generation of Germans but the truth is we do and can you tell us honestly that we should forgive them? We should forgive the millions and millions ( 60 million is a conservative estimate) of dead, the devastation of countries and the devastation of smashed lives? 60,000 people died in the Blitz alone. Warsaw had a population of 1,289,000 before the war, it was just 153,000 afterwards. Would you, could you forgive so easily? 
For Europe it's never in the past, it's always just behind us, its within living memory. We still see the bullet holes from the firing squads in the walls of the houses. Think of 9/11 ground zero but country wide and millions dead, then someone rounding up survivors and killing them or putting them in camps, then think of that happening for five years. After the people who did this were defeated would you be so keen to have them back as scientists or whatever?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 15, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps nothing to you and me, perhaps it should mean nothing.
> 
> However we are talking about men, who may well be still alive, who killed a great number of people, who planned the destruction of an entire people, who murdered and tortured their way across Europe. Shouldn't they be investigated and if there's evidence taken to stand trial for these crimes?



If it turns out that George Bush is arrested for war crimes (don't think it's likely, just saying), then I was one of the guys who worked in the industries that supplied war material for the Iraq and Afghanistan war effort.  I kept critical networks running.  Am I a war criminal?

If so, why?  If not, how is the guy who designed gears that went into a German WWII tank a war criminal?

Yes, there are real war criminals, I believe in such things. I also believe the overwhelming majority were just doing their jobs, whether they liked the administration in power or not.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> If it turns out that George Bush is arrested for war crimes (don't think it's likely, just saying), then I was one of the guys who worked in the industries that supplied war material for the Iraq and Afghanistan war effort. I kept critical networks running. Am I a war criminal?
> 
> If so, why? If not, how is the guy who designed gears that went into a German WWII tank a war criminal?
> 
> Yes, there are real war criminals, I believe in such things. I also believe the overwhelming majority were just doing their jobs, whether they liked the administration in power or not.


 
I knew explaining how we felt would be pointless but I had to try. 

Yeah, you're right all those Germans were just doing their jobs and Europeans are just whinging.
War criminals? they were just following orders.

No German told the SS about their Jewish/communist/gay/Jehovah's Witness etc neighbours and had them taken to the camps. No German benefitted from the removal of Jewish  people from jobs, schools and universities. No German threw stones at Jews in the street, no German walked passed dying people, no German smashed the windows in Jewish houses, no German joined the SS voluntarily. The whole nation were just following orders. Only a few were guilty, the rest of course they were innocent. How could I have ever thought otherwise. Silly me.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 16, 2010)

Difficult topic. 

Ok the war was over and the Nazis soundly beaten.
As soon as Berlin was taken, there was a new shift in the balance of power, influence and ideologies. Everyone knew that there would a be a power struggle. So what to do?
Do you take the high road and put your country at a serious disadvantage?
Or do you take the pragmatic approach and gather as much intelligence assets as possible?

As for the 'everyone is guilty' line.
Well, yes I suppose. The war was a total war. The entire socio economic structure was bent to the war effort. It was simply impossible to exist in Germany (or UK, or...) and not be part of the war effort. And people did in fact do despicable things. What do you suggest? Executing every single German?


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Difficult topic.
> 
> Ok the war was over and the Nazis soundly beaten.
> As soon as Berlin was taken, there was a new shift in the balance of power, influence and ideologies. Everyone knew that there would a be a power struggle. So what to do?
> ...


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## punisher73 (Nov 16, 2010)

elder999 said:


> It's old news. Heck, our military used Nazi concentration camp data on "experiments" with freezing-in fact, most of what we know about how the human body reacts to freezing comes from those events.
> 
> And, a while ago Tez posted something about our space program and how we couldn't have done it without the British (or the Aussies, for that matter), but we really couldn't have done it without those _Germans._ Were they truly Nazis, or like many others who had to join the party, just Germans? I couldn't say.
> 
> We sure did grab as many as we could, though.....


 
I was going to mention the fact that ALOT of data came from Nazi scientists that could not have been learned any other way in science and medicine because they did such atrocities to other people.  Usually, when it gets mentioned someone twists it as being pro-nazi.  Glad it can be discussed for what it is here.


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## crushing (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I'm suggesting they think about the total devastation left after the war ended and see why Europeans aren't inclined to be so forgiving as they are towards Germans.


 
Actually, the links I provided earlier in this discussion show the United Kingdom to be quite forgiving of Nazis, particularly due to the post war labor shortage.  Here they are again if you missed them.

The UK:  A Nazi Safe Haven

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/scotland/article555186.ece
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/feb/04/secondworldwar.germany
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1525553.stm


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## elder999 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> [No I'm suggesting that Americans understand what it was like in the last war and understand why recruiting SS officers to spy for them is morally wrong. .


 
Good night, Irene!(just been dying to say that!) we have arguments on this very board about how killing Indians was ok, not genocide and "just a clash of cultures," arguments about the "real" casuses of our Civil War and how it "wasn't really over slavery, but states rights"(*to slavery*, duh!). We have a populace nearly completely and blissfully  ignorant of their government's direct action or complicity in butchery in the Phillipines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua,  and Chile-and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately. Long before he became "an evil dictator who had rape rooms," Saddam Hussein was one of our government's pets. You should neither be surprised that we're not as outraged as Europeans, really don't care about European's ourtrage, and mostly don't care about the relative morality of using Nazis as spies after the war was over-something that started happening more than 60 years ago. We help support the House of Saud-who help support the terrorists we're fighting. We help support the Pakistani government, who help support the terrorists we're fighting. They called WWII "the war to end all wars" and the worlds been nothing *BUT* at war for the last 60 years, if you bother to know where to look-and always has been a gaping, supperating, pus filled open wound of suffering. We're still arguing about what happened to the Armenians was a "genocide." We make a "legal" distinction between "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing."

Is it any wonder that I really can't give a **** about 6 million Jews, dust now for 60 years? 

I love my country, but compared to my own government, _Hitler was a prince._


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 16, 2010)

I can't argue emotion against logic, so this will be my final post in this thread.

I appreciate the points made about the complicity of everyday Germans in the Nazi atrocities.  I appreciate the points made about how America, despite sending soldiers to fight and providing war material to allies, did not have the horrors of the war visited upon our shores, and so we lack the perspective of WWII that Europeans have.  I get that.

However, be that as it may, we are what we are.  We are not Europeans, we don't feel the same way Europeans do.  All this _"why can't you feel the same way we do about things"_ is an utter waste of time; we don't feel the same way you do, we're not likely to start, so move on.

Horrible things were done in WWII, particularly against the Jews.  Many Jews live in the USA, and we are constantly on guard against that sort of thing happening again, against Jews, Muslims, or what-have-you.  Every time bigotry appears to raise its pointed head, there are many voices, mine included, ready to point the finger and start raising hell.  Other than that, there's not much we can (or are willing) to do in a free society; people are free to hate if they wish, they're even free to talk about their hatred; we only prevent them from acting on their hatred.  Sorry if that offends sensibilities, but I actually prefer it that way and I do not apologize for it.

As to the importation of scientists and other skilled professionals who were Germans and worked for the Nazis - or were actual Nazis themselves; what is it exactly you want me to do about it?  Be offended?  Well, I'm not.  I see that if we hadn't snatched them up, the USSR would have (and did in many cases), and their brainpower and research would have been put to work against the West (that includes free Europe, by the way).

Should we have put them in prison?  Perhaps, assuming they were guilty of some crime.  We didn't.  It's done.  They're long dead as are the people who should have would have could have investigated them or prosecuted them.  It's over.  We can only talk about it now, nothing anyone does can change anything.

So we hired a bunch of Nazi scientists.  Shrug.  I don't care, except in a historical sense.  They didn't carry on being Nazis here, they only carried on being scientists.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

crushing said:


> Actually, the links I provided earlier in this discussion show the United Kingdom to be quite forgiving of Nazis, particularly due to the post war labor shortage. Here they are again if you missed them.
> 
> The UK: A Nazi Safe Haven
> 
> ...


 
You think? What governments think is rarely what the people think, try asking the survivors of the Blitz how they felt about the Germans. Try asking what the Japanese prisoners of war think about the Japanese even today. Ask the Channel Islandrs who had the Germans invae their islands.

The British v Germans mentality is alive, well and kicking, trust me. You'd be surprised by how much anti German sentiment there is here, it's even worse in the Netherlands, they haven't forgiven the Germans at all. here we still call them krauts, still fight them at any opportunity at football matches anywhere in the world, we even still fight them on the beaches. 


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...onquest-their-dislike-of-the-hun-1615916.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2010/jun/24/worldcup2010-national-newspapers


From Nick Clegg the deputy Prime Minister.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/nick-clegg/dont-mention-war-grow-up

http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/opi...r-Beck-Kingston-University-article493295.html

And this
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/column...et-the-war-it-s-far-too-soon-115875-16474483/


_"But what is not reasonable - and what is in fact plain stupid, and a defiance of human nature - is to believe that the people of these islands should look upon Germany as just another European neighbour._
_Question: Why can't the British forget the Second World War?_
_Answer: Because it is just too soon._
_A residual resentment of Germany remains in our national consciousness, and that is entirely understandable."_


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## Blade96 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> You think? What governments think is rarely what the people think, try asking the survivors of the Blitz how they felt about the Germans. Try asking what the Japanese prisoners of war think about the Japanese even today. Ask the Channel Islandrs who had the Germans invae their islands.
> 
> The British v Germans mentality is alive, well and kicking, trust me. You'd be surprised by how much anti German sentiment there is here, it's even worse in the Netherlands, they haven't forgiven the Germans at all. here we still call them krauts, still fight them at any opportunity at football matches anywhere in the world, we even still fight them on the beaches.



I find that really sad. Thats here too.  In fact I went to university with a german girl named Sonja. and she told me it was only in the past 5 years or so people stopped calling her a Nazi. Even though she is far too young to ever be involved in that part of her country's history. I feel sorry for the German people of today, They have to live with that in their country's past and they had nothing to do with it cause they are too young.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Good night, Irene!(just been dying to say that!) we have arguments on this very board about how killing Indians was ok, not genocide and "just a clash of cultures," arguments about the "real" casuses of our Civil War and how it "wasn't really over slavery, but states rights"(*to slavery*, duh!). We have a populace nearly completely and blissfully ignorant of their government's direct action or complicity in butchery in the Phillipines, Cuba, Puerto Rico, the Dominican Republic, Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua, and Chile-and those are just the ones that come to mind immediately. Long before he became "an evil dictator who had rape rooms," Saddam Hussein was one of our government's pets. You should neither be surprised that we're not as outraged as Europeans, really don't care about European's ourtrage, and mostly don't care about the relative morality of using Nazis as spies after the war was over-something that started happening more than 60 years ago. We help support the House of Saud-who help support the terrorists we're fighting. We help support the Pakistani government, who help support the terrorists we're fighting. They called WWII "the war to end all wars" and the worlds been nothing *BUT* at war for the last 60 years, if you bother to know where to look-and always has been a gaping, supperating, pus filled open wound of suffering. We're still arguing about what happened to the Armenians was a "genocide." We make a "legal" distinction between "genocide" and "ethnic cleansing."
> 
> *Is it any wonder that I really can't give a **** about 6 million Jews, dust now for 60 years? *
> 
> I love my country, but compared to my own government, _Hitler was a prince._


 
I can't not care, frankly, those Jews lying as dust were my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles and my cousins.

World War ONE was called the war to end all wars, which was optimistic at best, stupid at worst.

Why should you care about Nazis in your country? figure it out. Do you think they want the best for a country that defeated them? You say you are on the look out for anti Semitism but your country is waging a war on Muslims, if you don't learn from history you are only going backwards. If you don't take the time to understand what the rest of the world is about you are going to make even more enemies, perhaps if you'd taken notice of what was going on you wouldn't have been involved in Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan.
You can stand in glorious isolation as China and India start taking over from you, or you can open your eyes and see whats going on around you and what caused 9/11. You are all moaning about airport restrictions, your government etc, do you think it will get any better? 

I think you've probably all missed the point here. The government departments lied to you about the recruitment of the Nazis. They hide the truth from you - that they knew these people had criminal histories, if you don't care, if it doesn't matter why weren't you told the truth? why weren't the scinetists etc investigated thoroughly? If they lied about their pasts do you not think they could scarcely be honest about the work they did for America! If they were dyed in the wool Nazis, do you not consider they could still work for the benefit of the Nazis rather than the benefit of America? Should they not have been investigated then? for your good if not anyones elses? Of course if you're happy with your government lying to you, crack on.


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## elder999 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> I can't not care, frankly, those Jews lying as dust were my grandparents, my aunts, my uncles and my cousins.
> 
> World War ONE was called the war to end all wars, which was optimistic at best, stupid at worst.
> 
> ...



I'm not missing the point

Our government 's lying to us is nothing new.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I find that really sad. Thats here too. In fact I went to university with a german girl named Sonja. and she told me it was only in the past 5 years or so people stopped calling her a Nazi. Even though she is far too young to ever be involved in that part of her country's history. I feel sorry for the German people of today, They have to live with that in their country's past and they had nothing to do with it cause they are too young.


 

It is sad, its the sins of the fathers on their childrens' childrens' backs. I think it won't stop for many years yet. My daughter is 25, she grew up with only one set of grandparents, one mother, one father and one brother because of the war. I grew up with just parents and a brother, no aunts, no uncles, no cousins. Until it becomes ancient history, it won't die down. 
I have no beef with any German born since the war, I have difficulties with the older ones though, it sits in the back of your mind, you wonder what they did during the war.

On the subject of emotion, there's some subjects that should never become academic, should never become just history, we need to keep a passion for life, for justice and not fall into a fug of blase, apathetic thoughts. We need people who will fight and even tilt at windmills, we need the dreamers, the idealists and the people who will fight for the underdog. We need the people who will take responsiblity. 

*"If I am not for myself, who is for me? But if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now, when?"*  Hillel


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

elder999 said:


> I'm not missing the point
> 
> Our government 's lying to us is nothing new.


 
and you are content?


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> TBH I think you are being childish. I see nothing sensational about the link supplied, I find nothing that you should take umbrage about in it other than perhaps at your government or government dept of the time that allowed them in and to stay. You are making an argument where there is none offered from me and if anything you are being obtuse about why I find it a subject so close to my heart as well as many others.
> 
> Why, too, you should be so defensive baffles me and why you should think that it's American bashing I don't know.
> 
> ...


 

What I am saying it all governments have skeletons that is all. And I am also saying I am not bashing anyone. And the title of the article is a bit sensationalized as is the title of the posts "USA" "Safe Haven" "Nazis" I am sorry you do not agree. I am not trying to make an argument for anything, I'm not getting defensive, stating facts is not trying to make an argument, that is unless of course the person reading said fact has a problem with then.... again.. Sorry you do not see that.

Thanks for the insult... got to go... ta ta


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> You know I think I need another break and I do realize this is just me but I am getting way to negative of late. Ill be back
> 
> What I am saying it all governments have skeletons that is all. And I am also saying I am not bashing anyone. And the title of the article is a bit sensationalized as is the title of the posts "USA" "Safe Haven" "Nazis" I am sorry you do not agree. I am not trying to make an argument for anything, stating facts is not trying to make an argument, that is unless of course the person reading said fact has a problem with then.... again.. Sorry you do not see that.
> 
> Thanks for the insult... got to go... ta ta


 

The title comes from the American Simon Wiesanthal Centre, put up by Americans. I did start the title with *'report saying'* I could have made it sensationalist and controversial by leaving that bit out. The report itself was made by the _American_ _Justice Department_ and reported by the _New York Times_. *No one yet has commented on them.* All anyone seems to think is that the Americans are being blamed for something yet again. _The report was made by an American Government Department, the criticism came from an American newspaper and I'm to blame? don't make me larf mate._

No country is without blame for anything but here it seems there's a cover up and a government department lying to it's people and no one cares, it's shrugged off as so what and that's sad. 

*There was no insult offered*, my insults aren't veiled they are blatant and obvious. I don't stab people in the back I go for the throat.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The title comes from the American Simon Wiesanthal Centre, put up by Americans. I did start the title with 'report saying' I could have made it sensationalist and controversial by leaving that bit out. The report itself was made by the American Justice Department and reported by the New York Times. No one yet has commented on them. All anyone seems to think is that the Americans are being blamed for something yet again. The report was made by an American Government Department, the criticism came from an American newspaper and I'm to blame? don't make me larf mate.
> 
> No country is without blame for anything but here it seems there's a cover up and a government department lying to it's people and no one cares, it's shrugged off as so what and that's sad.
> 
> There was no insult offered, my insults aren't veiled they are blatant and obvious. I don't stab people in the back I go for the throat.


 
Allow me to repeat my previous post

_What I am saying it all governments have skeletons that is all. And I am also saying I am not bashing anyone. And the title of the article is a bit sensationalized as is the title of the posts "USA" "Safe Haven" "Nazis" I am sorry you do not agree. I am not trying to make an argument for anything, I'm not getting defensive, stating facts is not trying to make an argument, that is unless of course the person reading said fact has a problem with then.... again.. Sorry you do not see that._

Now let me break that down for you

Our press is very much into sensationalism and to be honest I do not always believe it. I actually tend to believe the BBC more. But then our press is not the only press in the world that does not report the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth&#8230;you should see the news in China&#8230; it is much the same as the news in the US (now that will upset more than a few Americans)&#8230;the days of Walter Kronkite are long since over in the good ole USA.

The only thing you are to blame for is the lack of knowledge as to how the American press operates and having more than a few posts in the past that were in fact directed at America. And of late America has been blamed for a lot by a lot of people, the proverbial kick a guy when he is down thing, but the first sign of trouble who does everyone run too&#8230; ok these days it seems to be China, they have the money, but before it was us and it will be again&#8230;just wait until the next oppressed people yell for help&#8230; guess who they will yell loudest too.

All governments lie and cover things up, even the illustrious British government and anyone who thinks otherwise is a bit naive IMO. A government cover-up in the USA is far from news to most but it sure as hell sells papers and give conspiracy theorists tons of material to run with.

You are not reading what I posted you are responding to your emotions. I am not getting defensive and I am not arguing. OK this next bit is a jab but at this point I need to do it, I did cast aspersions on the UK based on facts however and although in post 1 it was necessary anything after that likely could have been avoided. And to be honest it was edited in at least one.

And what part of calling someone childish is a veiled insult (possibly a cultural thing). And of course there was the attempted redirection by accusing me of Brit bashing, which in fact I was not doing. History is history and as much as many of us would like to forget and/or deny some or much of it we can&#8217;t. 

And now no insult be a possible threat&#8230; even better. 




Tez3 said:


> I don't stab people in the back I go for the throat.


 
Are you now inferring that I stab people in the back or am I reading too much into that... it is possible...cultural differences and the World Wide Web you know can be problems

As to our government, I get the feeling many are not happy but to explain more would take pages and pages that frankly I do not feel like typing. Suffice to say it is our government and we are stuck with it because we were not paying attention and don&#8217;t let the two party system fool you&#8230;they are not that different.

Now

tez I am going to drop this now and no longer respond to this thread in anyway shape or form...feel free to do and or say whatever you like to me or about me, insult and threaten away&#8230; but I am done. 

I see that per usual the study has drawn me into areas I frankly do not like nor do I really care about. I am guilty of responding beyond my first post and I simply should have left it there.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> Allow me to repeat my previous post
> 
> _What I am saying it all governments have skeletons that is all. And I am also saying I am not bashing anyone. And the title of the article is a bit sensationalized as is the title of the posts "USA" "Safe Haven" "Nazis" I am sorry you do not agree. I am not trying to make an argument for anything, I'm not getting defensive, stating facts is not trying to make an argument, that is unless of course the person reading said fact has a problem with then.... again.. Sorry you do not see that._
> 
> ...


 

Wow, you do really read more into things that is there!

Calling someone childish is hardly an insult, I was being honest, if you prefer I lie say so! All I was saying is that I don't do veiled insults, if I insult you it will out in the open, don't go reading more into it than that. I think you are far too sensitive and are reading between the libnes where there's no writing.

As I said the title came from an American source I put the contact details up on another post, contact them and complain.


Of course I don't know about the American press, so educate me don't whinge.

If you think America is being attacked, answer back, read the other posts, they say either they don't care, it was the right thing to do at the time or whatever. You, all I get is well other countries have stuff to hide, other governments have skeletons etc etc. Yeah, And? What's that got to do with the price of fish? do two or more wrongs make a right? Was your government right or wrong? It's simple. if you think they were right say so, if wrong say so, dont' go on about other countries, we can start new threads for that and believe me I can fill several with the British, Scottish, Welsh, English and Northern Irelands government's misdeeds, how long have you got?

Btw you flatter me, I'm not as clever as you seem to think I am, my posts don't mean anymore than what you read, no attemtped misdirections, no insults, nothing between the lines. Just what I think and feel, it may not be right, it might be dreadfully wrong but it's honest.


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## crushing (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> The British v Germans mentality is alive, well and kicking, trust me. You'd be surprised by how much anti German sentiment there is here, it's even worse in the Netherlands, they haven't forgiven the Germans at all. here we still call them krauts, still fight them at any opportunity at football matches anywhere in the world, we even still fight them on the beaches.


 
With all that anti-Germanism, hundreds of Nazis still found safe haven in the United Kingdom.  Does that bother you more or less than the US recruiting some former Nazi scientists?


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## Sukerkin (Nov 16, 2010)

To answer Crushing directly, "About the same".

I was going to write a lot more but decided that it's far too complex a subject to write about when I'm already brassed off by the travails of my own little life.

So a precis.

It's not great that the devious men that make up our governments decided to harbour certain figures that had connections of lesser or greater extent to the Nazi's.  I understand why and, in some cases, might accede that great advantage accrued from it.  Nietzsche would have been proud.  For myself, not so much.

I would be surprised that this was not common knowledge to everyone here tho'.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

crushing said:


> With all that anti-Germanism, hundreds of Nazis still found safe haven in the United Kingdom. Does that bother you more or less than the US recruiting some former Nazi scientists?


 

It bothers me the same amount. Nazis are Nazis, I don't want them safe anywhere, however if they are here it makes hunting them easier. 
There is alot of anti German feeling here even now, apart from Holocaust survivors and their families who you can understand their trepidation and feelings about the Germans, British people are brought up with it. 
I know an old chap who was a Japanese prisoner of war, he was treated horrendously and barely survived, to this day he won't have anything Japanese in the house nor will he ride in a Japanese car. You can be cold and logical and tell him things are different, the wars over, it was years ago etc but that's how he feels, he *cannot* feel any differently. He still has nightmares and still mourns his mates who died in the POW camp. It's how it is, I don't know how you can change that for him or those that survived the Shoah.  


I think this is one reason we can't trust Nazis.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/mar/12/warcrimes.chile

Don't forget too that many of us are still trying to get our families possessions and property seized by the Nazis back. This family did
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2000/mar/14/warcrimes.germany


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## Mark Jordan (Nov 16, 2010)

I've heard about this and I wonder why its being publicized only now?


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## Blade96 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> It bothers me the same amount. Nazis are Nazis, I don't want them safe anywhere, however if they are here it makes hunting them easier.
> There is alot of anti German feeling here even now, apart from Holocaust survivors and their families who you can understand their trepidation and feelings about the Germans, British people are brought up with it.
> I know an old chap who was a Japanese prisoner of war, he was treated horrendously and barely survived, to this day he won't have anything Japanese in the house nor will he ride in a Japanese car. You can be cold and logical and tell him things are different, the wars over, it was years ago etc but that's how he feels, he *cannot* feel any differently. He still has nightmares and still mourns his mates who died in the POW camp. It's how it is, I don't know how you can change that for him or those that survived the Shoah.



As much as I feel sorry for you and your family and your people (the jewish) for what they went through in the war (and you have good reasons to feel this way) I don't believe the us and britain and all should hunt down every little german who ever did anything bad for the nazis during the war. Many indeed were following orders and lots had no choice. I don't believe they were all the same or they all felt the same as hitler about everything. The german movie 'Stalingrad' in fact was made because the germans wanted to show that not all the germans of that time were 'bad people'


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## elder999 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> and you are content?


 
What in my first post would lead you to believe that I'm "content??"

Our government lies-and lies, and lies, and lies-I think, at times, that *all* governments do. 

Our government deliberately left black men untreated for syphillis, just to see what would happen.

Our government deliberately infected people in Guatemala with syphillis, just to see what would happen.

Our government broke virtually every treaty made with the Indians, committed massive atrocities, and has mismanaged more than $3 billion held in "trust" for the Indians-who have yet to see a dime of that money.

I could go on, and on, and on, and on-I already have.

Why should I care about a bunch of dead Nazis? Why should I be surprised?


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> As much as I feel sorry for you and your family and your people (the jewish) for what they went through in the war (and you have good reasons to feel this way) I don't believe the us and britain and all should hunt down every little german who ever did anything bad for the nazis during the war. Many indeed were following orders and lots had no choice. I don't believe they were all the same or they all felt the same as hitler about everything. The german movie 'Stalingrad' in fact was made because the germans wanted to show that not all the germans of that time were 'bad people'


 
Oh good grief, thanks but I don't need your pity nor do my people, we want justice.

We aren't hunting down every little German, we are hunting down specific Nazis who are on a wanted list.
 'Stanlingrad' is a work of fiction and can't be used as proof of anything I'm afraid. The 'Germans' en masse didn't make it, a director and film crew along with writers did, it can't represent all German's points of view.


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## Blade96 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Oh good grief, thanks but I don't need your pity nor do my people, we want justice.
> 
> We aren't hunting down every little German, we are hunting down specific Nazis who are on a wanted list



oh well i don't mind that, those ones should be caught.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2010)

elder999 said:


> What in my first post would lead you to believe that I'm "content??"
> 
> Our government lies-and lies, and lies, and lies-I think, at times, that *all* governments do.
> 
> ...


 
Hell, I don't care about dead Nazis either!


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## elder999 (Nov 16, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Hell, I don't care about dead Nazis either!


 
Well, as far as WWII Nazis go, there isn't much of any other kind, is there?

I mean, in the case of the U.S. Nazi spies, scientists and whatever, there's none like them......

,.....they all dead!


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

elder999 said:


> Well, as far as WWII Nazis go, there isn't much of any other kind, is there?
> 
> I mean, in the case of the U.S. Nazi spies, scientists and whatever, there's none like them......
> 
> ,.....they all dead!


 

The problem is that while very old there are still a fair amount of them left. We still have a huge number of Second World War veterans left so it's the same with the Nazis. It is probably getting towards the last of them so time is getting short but believe me there are still wartime Nazis out there.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

Here's the Weisenthal Center's Top Ten:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...s-10-most-wanted-Nazi-war-criminals-list.html



Many who were  in their twenties during the war are in their eighties now some in their nineties which frankly is not too old, plenty of us know people that age, there's no reason for not investigating them and if found to be enough evidence to take them to trail. All murderers should know there will be no giving up looking for them or that old age is a bar to legal proceedings. If they have lived to a comfortable old age they should rememember their victims didn't.

This one is dead but you might still find it interesting.

 Aribert Heim - Doctor in Sachsenhausen (1940), Buchenwald (1941) and Mauthausen (1941) concentration camps
Murdered hundreds of camp inmates by lethal injection in Mauthausen
Status: Disappeared in 1962 prior to planned prosecution; current whereabouts unknown Son says he's dead but says there are other Nazis in Egypt hiding out. _Converted to Islam in the 1060s, believed to have helped Al Queda._
​


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## elder999 (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Here's the Weisenthal Center's Top Ten:​
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/new...s-10-most-wanted-Nazi-war-criminals-list.html​
> 
> ...




Sorry about your family, Irene-really. One of my favorite teachers in middle school was a survivor. As for those remaining, crusty old and drooling men, though......

Don't really care, don't really care, don't really care.​ 



Tez3 said:


> This one is dead but you might still find it interesting.​





Tez3 said:


> ​
> Aribert Heim - Doctor in Sachsenhausen (1940), Buchenwald (1941) and Mauthausen (1941) concentration camps
> Murdered hundreds of camp inmates by lethal injection in Mauthausen
> Status: Disappeared in 1962 prior to planned prosecution; current whereabouts unknown Son says he's dead but says there are other Nazis in Egypt hiding out. _Converted to Islam in the 1060s, believed to have helped Al Queda._​


 
So? Every one of us "helps al Qaeda" every time I fill up our car's gas tanks. 

And as for Dr. Heim, I'll  just belt he had some more assistance from Jimmy Hoffa and Elvis...:lfao: :lfao: :lfao:


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2010)

If all the old people you know are drooling and crusty your medical services must be worst than ours!
Some of the brightest people around are old! I guess you haven't seen the Chelsea Pensioners! they've just released a CD as well as being very sprightly.

If theres a 'domestic' murder in America do the police give up wanting to find the murderer? Do they say oh well lets not bother the guys old? I believe the expression you guys use is that there's no statute of limitations on murder, of course when the victims aren't from your country or the murderers aren't there's no reason for you to care. 

Of course if you aren't interested in people who helped plan, pay for and execute 9/11 I guess there's nothing more I can say. Perhaps it was your government after all who did it.


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## crushing (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> If all the old people you know are drooling and crusty your medical services must be worst than ours!
> Some of the brightest people around are old! I guess you haven't seen the Chelsea Pensioners! they've just released a CD as well as being very sprightly.
> 
> If theres a 'domestic' murder in America do the police give up wanting to find the murderer? Do they say oh well lets not bother the guys old? I believe the expression you guys use is that there's no statute of limitations on murder, of course when the victims aren't from your country or the murderers aren't there's no reason for you to care.


 
It's 2010 and Nazis are still being deported from the USA.  Since Nazis appear to be living longer and healthier in your country, it sounds like a nicer safe haven than ending up drooling, crusty, irradiated and on a plane back to Europe.  

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64H6LN20100518


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## elder999 (Nov 17, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> If all the old people you know are drooling and crusty your medical services must be worst than ours!


 

I was thinking more or John _Ivan the Terrible-*oh, no wait*Ivan the someone else for sure_ Demanjuk.

U.S. sure was a "safe haven" for him....


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