# Should getting a Black Belt be this stressful?



## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

Okay I want to start with a disclaimer, I do not want this to turn into a is he too young discussion. I have read the posts and I know how some of you feel about kids as BBs. In his school they do allow kids as young as 7-8 to test for BB so that is just the way it is there (Although I am beginning to think they should raise the age).

That being said here is what I need input on. My son has been taking TKD for 3.5 yrs and he is 8. He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show. That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show. 

Here is my issue, my son is an emotional kid (he gets it from me) if he gets frustrated he cries. He does not quit and he will keep going through the tears but that is just his personality. Way back in Nov. before the Review Board stuff started I approached the owners of the school and asked them straight up if my son was ready to go up for BB. I made it clear that I was fine with him waiting another year (they only do it once a year). They said he was ready and they would make sure he was ready and he would do fine. Now I have no idea what goes on at Review Board because it is a big secret and no one is allowed to talk about it so I was relying on their knowledge of what goes on to determine if my son was ready. Well we are now less than a week from Review Board and my son has had private lessons, done all the prep work, attended 22 classes in Feb. alone just to get ready and the owner comes to him and tells him he may not allow him to go up for Review Board. I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done. Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit! It sounds more like a college hazing to me? Is this the norm for a BB test? If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now. If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right. I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys. 

I guess my question is, is this the norm and should the BB test be so awful that it is the worst day of a kids life? If so we may just have to be done with the arts. Just FYI- I also do TKD but started after my son so he is up for BB before me.

Thanks for any input you may have.
-Kate


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## Cyriacus (Mar 6, 2012)

This is gonna sound harsh.
Some people quit way too easily.
It isnt remarkable.

As a comparative;
We get people who quit during BB Gradings. From Injuries sustained attempting it. Thats about it. And since this seems to be a matter of intensity, and a more Psychological Wall that needs to be overcome, itll come down to Perseverance.

So, I would suggest two things.
One; Tell them that He may become emotional, but tell them to disregard it. Explain to them, as You just did, that it isnt representative of being upset, so much as just His response to certain kinds of pressure, and that He always keeps going regardless. Its just an outlet He has little control over. The worst thing that can happen is if He gets teary throughout it, and someone gets all soft. Thatd lead to Him being suggestified into quitting. Just think, "Are you sure you want to keep going?" every couple of seconds.
Two; Dont let Him think this will be a bad experience. Tell Him itll be hard, then tell Him how good He will feel when He overcomes that objective. Encourage success. Do not fear difficulty.

Lastly, being a Black Belt ISNT meant to be about being soft. If thats what You want, find a Belt Factory and do Yoga, or something.
This means the Standards are decent. And it means that whether He succeeds or fails, attempting and persevering through to the end is an achievement in and of itself, succeed or fail.


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2012)

cay22 said:


> the owner comes to him and tells him he may not allow him to go up for Review Board. I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done.



If he doesn't test until next year, it sounds like something you already were concerned about before the 22 classes in one month, etc., so no big deal. IF he tests and doesn't pass, he'll take it again next year, so no big deal.

Either way, I don't see the big deal.



cay22 said:


> Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit!



A  36 year old police officer broke down crying during one of my shodan tests-it's supposed to be hard. That said, I don't know anything about no 8 year old BB......



cay22 said:


> If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now.



Well, you should point out what I said-either way, it's no big deal-certainly not worth being "crushed and humiliated." He has the rest of his life to practice TKD if he wants, one year more is a gift.



cay22 said:


> If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right.



And maybe they're telling him that to motivate him. Just a thought.



cay22 said:


> I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. *This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys.*



Then, either way, it should be a lesson to him: there are disappointments in everything, even things we really enjoy.


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## dancingalone (Mar 6, 2012)

There is no one size fits all answer.  Some schools do make the BB exam a trial by ordeal of sorts while others handle it more as a graduation celebratory event.  It seems like your child's school might fall more into the first group.

Fit is important in finding a school to train at.  Has the atmosphere at your school been consistent before now?  They seem a bit hard-nosed, which is fine, but it should have been explained well in advance that the BB test is stressful at their school and that failing is a very real possibility.

By the way, I am amazed they have child BBs with such an apparently demanding exam while not permitting the parents to watch.  Lawsuit city!


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## StudentCarl (Mar 6, 2012)

Usually this kind of experience/test is something a person remembers his whole life with pride for facing it. He will grow regardless of the result. We grow from facing tough challenges, not from always knowing the result before beginning nor even what the result is. I've grown more from my failures than my successes, though the really tough successes yield growth too.

I do agree with Dancingalone's concern about the appropriateness/legal jeopardy of nobody allowed, particularly with a minor.


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## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

To Dancingalone, I think that is my biggest issue is that NO it has not been consistent. Up until now it is a "big happy family" where they really help the kids get through all the tests. Yes they yell some and correct them but if a kid gets upset they give them a min to calm down and then go on. My son has gotten upset before but has never quit or stopped doing what he was supposed to, he has worked through it. Now all of a sudden they are going to he so hard on him he will quit? And no none of this is explained early on unless you directly ask. Once you have 3 years in it is hard to go somewhere else.

I was wondering about the legals of no parents there also.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2012)

any school that wont let parents be present?

quit

run away

never look back

any instructor that is so stupid as to not allow parents to watch thier tests is too stupid to be allowed around children

i would NEVER be alone with a child.  I would NEVER tell parents they cant watch.

NEVER

run.
run away


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

If making black belt were easy then everybody would have one.  Not to be hard on your son.  But if you crack up and quit during the test then you are not a black belt.  You are a mom and I know you are protecting him, but strength sometimes requires adversity, challenge, and stress.  The stess he feels during this test is nothing compared to a real life and death fight if he should find himself in that position, I am sure you would want him physically, mentally, AND emotionally prepared.

If it makes you feel any better I can't teach my son with my wife in the room, she worries about every little bump.


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## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

To elder999 - I do understand that disappointment is a part of life and if told back in Nov. that he was not going up this year he would have been disappointed but gotten over it. I think (especially for a child) there is a big difference in telling them days before. Maybe I underestimate my child and he would bounce back and be fine but I still feel it is wrong to deny him after they continually told him he was ready. He has failed testings before so it is not like he expects to pass, he knows he must be ready. I guess I was just naive to think that if he was physically and mentally ready he would have the chance to pass. I hate to bring up the $ but if he does not pass I am out $200! That is a lot of money to pay someone to make my kid possibly feel like crap. All other testings he failed they "pretested" him so he failed before the actual testing.


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## dancingalone (Mar 6, 2012)

cay22 said:


> To Dancingalone, I think that is my biggest issue is that NO it has not been consistent. Up until now it is a "big happy family" where they really help the kids get through all the tests. Yes they yell some and correct them but if a kid gets upset they give them a min to calm down and then go on. My son has gotten upset before but has never quit or stopped doing what he was supposed to, he has worked through it.



I can understand this would be upsetting.  Perhaps they are one of those people who regard the BB as a firm line and they really want to make sure someone does well and deserves it before awarding it.  But if that is the case, regular reminders that the BB test is no joke should be made.



cay22 said:


> Now all of a sudden they are going to he so hard on him he will quit?



Will he definitely quit?  Our little ones can surprise us a lot sometimes.  I will say this.  I am someone who likes to give stressful tests myself, and as such I make it a point to understand how far I can push some physically and mentally before they breakdown.  Hopefully, your child's instructor has a similar measure of him or perhaps the test is in the anticipation and worry in of itself.



cay22 said:


> And no none of this is explained early on unless you directly ask. Once you have 3 years in it is hard to go somewhere else.



If you ever have to move, I think you'll find that many TKD schools will accept rank transfers readily.  They'll just work with your boy to get him up to speed on their own requirements before advancing him further.



cay22 said:


> I was wondering about the legals of no parents there also.



<shrugs>  I would never teach a child without providing ready viewing access to the parents as well.  My lawyer was very clear on that when we went over my operational plan for potential liability.  Sometimes even the perception that something isn't kosher is enough to bring in all sorts of legal entanglements even when you've done nothing wrong at all.



			
				cay22 said:
			
		

> I hate to bring up the $ but if he does not pass I am out $200! That is a  lot of money to pay someone to make my kid possibly feel like crap. All  other testings he failed they "pretested" him so he failed before the  actual testing.



Most places have free retests for precisely this reason, so that the students don't feel cheated or taken advantage of financially.  Ask what the policy is about this.  

As a parent though, if you think your son is not ready, you should perhaps pull him from the exam after explaining to him the importance of growth, milestones, and reaching a high level of success at each level before attempting another?


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

The couple of things jump out at me based only on what you've said.  First, taking you at your word, quitting isn't an issue for your son.  Controlling emotions, maybe... but I agree with you that it seems odd that after knowing your son for over 3 years, they now believe him to be a quitter.  I personally don't believe in mind games with kids.  So, if they're telling him this in what I'd call an extremely misguided attempt at motivation, that's a red flag for me.  

More concerning, however, is what TF mentioned.  They won't let you be present during the testing?  I have a real problem with that.  They want to do something with my kids and I'm not there?  Not a chance.  No way in hell.  That is a huge red flag for me.  Secret stuff for adults would also be a red flag, but you bring 7 to 10 year old kids into the mix and I'm extremely suspicious.  

While I want to be clear that we've only heard one side of this story and have no way to verify any of the allegations, taken at face value this is a very weird situation.


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## Jenna (Mar 6, 2012)

I am really sorry -and a little bit worried- to hear that your son will be crushed and humiliated by not achieving BB status this year.  Crushed and humiliated are extremely depressing words when talking of a child so young.  I hope that does not happen.  

If a less than favourable outcome happened, he is still the same great boy and you the same concerned and loving mother. I understand that you have all worked hard for this and but nobody is any less worthy if BB is not reached just now.

I truly hope it works out for the best.  And if it does not, that you can find a way to reframe the crushing and humiliating catastrophe as just one of those unexpected and unforseen situations that we cannot always plan for, but always manage to deal with and to survive.

Wishes


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

We have, what I consider, a tough test for the Jr. BB.  However, the minimum age for it is 10 years so I am not quite sure how an 8 year old would handle it.  That being said, if the instructor will not allow him to test after you have paid for the private lessons to prep him, then I would ask for the money back in the private lessons.  Like you said, he is the same kid as he was in November when they were willing to take your money for the lessons.  

Keep in mind, or perhaps they should keep in mind, that he has been working his butt of almost everyday.  That can lead to some physical and mental exhaustion which may be a factor into why he seems more emotional than usual.  Regardless, I would push to have him test.  It would be better to try and fail than to be told he is not mentally ready (I know they said he was mentally but emotionally ready but to me they go hand in hand).  

Final thought, we do not allow parents in during our black belt testings either.  It is a harsh test, that we are more concerned with parents freaking out than the kids.  We do not "black" out the windows, but we do not allow them in the door either.  We have several black belts on hand to test them, so they are not alone, and they test at the same time as our adult black belt test.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2012)

There are so many things wrong with this thread. :mst:


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Final thought, we do not allow parents in during our black belt testings either.  It is a harsh test, that we are more concerned with parents freaking out than the kids.  We do not "black" out the windows, but we do not allow them in the door either.  We have several black belts on hand to test them, so they are not alone, and they test at the same time as our adult black belt test.


If a parent insisted, are you saying you would refuse?  No way in hell.  That's just flat out wrong, in my book.  Would you mind sharing your rationale?


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

Watching someone get pushed right up to their breaking point isn't easy, it's one reason I am not sure about black belt children.  But that is not what this thread is about.  

I too agree that you should be able to watch the test.  I don't think that you should be able to interrupt it.  If his instructors have been above board to this point you should have grown to trust them.  If you dont' trust them then get your son out of there!

$200 is not really a lot of money when it comes to children.  In the span of your sons life and his well being it's a rather token amount.  If he takes the tests and passes he will gain something from that.  If he takes the tests and fails and then a year later takes the test again and passes, in a way he will learn an even more valuable lesson.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> If a parent insisted, are you saying you would refuse?  No way in hell.  That's just flat out wrong, in my book.  Would you mind sharing your rationale?


Yes, we would refuse.  The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent.  These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours?  We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse. 

Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do  so.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 6, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, we would refuse.  The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent.  These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours?  We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse.
> 
> Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do  so.



Im inclined to approve. Some Parents have this nasty habit of 'getting involved'.


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

I also approve.


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## Manny (Mar 6, 2012)

Any tkd dojang/sambonim who not allow parents to see the test of their children and or makes children runing into tears as a result of emotional abuse should be closed, period. We can not test children as adults, the children are emotional by nature and some adults too. i remeber I had towait one year more to obtain my black belt, my sambonim at that time said to me I was not ready, don't liked it but thanxs to it the next year I did a very very good black belt test, and yes it was not easy to spar with three large black belts at the same time, it was not easy do the board breaking and it was not easy to endure all the test but my spirit was big and I could pass the test with flying colours. At 43 yeras old and with 3 year of comback to tkd I did my second degree black belt and yes I was a little afraid abou the stamina, the altitude of mexico City that could afect me, afraid to be severily beaten by a young stud and the only thing I was not allowed to do at this test was to fight to 3 or 4 young black belts BUT I know if this was mandatory I will die in the arena before quiting!

The poom examination I have seen of small children it's a nice thing, my sambonim demand weeks before the examination good technike, desicion and determination but never to the pint of making a child broke in tears, never!! this is kind of abuse.

If your boy was my boy, I would demand see the test and the pretest or whatever just to ensure my biy will be ok, if sambonim or board odes not allow me then I will remove my boy of the dojang and would fine another more friendly where my boy could be fine.

Manny


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im inclined to approve. Some Parents have this nasty habit of 'getting involved'.


I was on the testing board when my youngest was testing for his Jr. BB.  I was told specifically that I was not allowed to test the Jr's.  I was only allowed to test the adults.  It was one of the hardest/proudest things for me to see as he went through this test.   Even as someone who has been through the test, I wanted to "rescue" him from it.  So I can only imagine how a non-martial arts parent would react to seeing what we do.


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## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Will he definitely quit?  Our little ones can surprise us a lot sometimes.  I will say this.  I am someone who likes to give stressful tests myself, and as such I make it a point to understand how far I can push some physically and mentally before they breakdown.  Hopefully, your child's instructor has a similar measure of him or perhaps the test is in the anticipation and worry in of itself.



I do not believe he will quit. I have talked with him about the fact it will be difficult and that is because his BB will be earned not given. He has said he will not quit. (Of course no one knows until they get in there but it is not like he is sitting here saying he is not sure he can do it) It is the instructor who seems like he is confident he will quit. (and really that is all up to the instructor) I do not mind if they push him to a breaking point, I do not mind if it is hard on him. I just do not want to send him in there with a target on his back with an instructor who is going to try and get him to quit. This is so unlike the people we have known for 3+years. I just feel like they pulled a switch on us. We started at this school because of how they treated the kids and how good they were with them. I guess I just assumed they would be like that at Review Board too. Thanks for all your incite, this thread has been very informative.


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

They are the same people, the circumstance has changed.  My teacher is one of the most warm loving people I know.  During my BB test he had the best poker face I have ever seen.  Stone cold, like a different guy.  It's a big deal and requires both student AND teacher to endure an ordeal and make tough choices.  Teachers generally don't like watching suffering any more than anybody else, especially since they too have done that test before.  But it must be done.

I think you should let him test, for better or worse.  It's better than the unknown.  Who knows what the future holds, this may be his one big chance.


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## Manny (Mar 6, 2012)

Because of all the things we ahve exposed here in thsi post is why I think no one below at least 15 would be a black belt or a poom belt, boys and girls below 15 and even 18 are not emotionaly mature to do a black belt test and to obtain a black belt, yes I know there are a very few exepcions but in general children are not mature enough.

Manny


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

Manny I share your view but that isn't what this thread is about so lets stay on track.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2012)

and the first time he gets sued he will be out of business.

and he will deserve it for doing something, well intentioned or not, that is out right STUPID in this day and age



miguksaram said:


> Yes, we would refuse.  The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent.  These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours?  We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse.
> 
> Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do  so.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

A school policy of how they test their Jr.'s for bb is not really a concern of mine.  People do not agree with our method and that is  fine.  We turn out great Jr. BB's and so what we have going seems to  work.  I do not agree on the fluffy run forms and blow sunshine up the  asses of the kids while they perform techniques during a test, but hey,  some do and works for them and so more power to them.

The only issue I have with what is going on is the fact that she paid for private lessons just to be told that he may not be able to test after all of time and money put into preparing for the test.  That should have been determined by the instructor from the very beginning.  It was already expressed by the parent that they were willing to wait one more year at the very beginning of all this.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> and the first time he gets sued he will be out of business.
> 
> and he will deserve it for doing something, well intentioned or not, that is out right STUPID in this day and age


Thank you for your concern.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2012)

we live in a lawsuite happy nation, sad but true. And so sorry, but as a parent, i would walk the hell out the first time some one told me i couldnt be there with my CHILD during anything. too many molester karate instructors to EVER allow that. I am NOT casting any accusation on Mr Sharkey, or you. I am just totally opposed to not allowing parents to be with thier kids.


If you are doing things that parents try to stop, that is something you should think about tho.


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## lifespantkd (Mar 6, 2012)

cay22 said:


> I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done. Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit! It sounds more like a college hazing to me? Is this the norm for a BB test? If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now. If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right. I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys.
> 
> I guess my question is, is this the norm and should the BB test be so awful that it is the worst day of a kids life? If so we may just have to be done with the arts. Just FYI- I also do TKD but started after my son so he is up for BB before me.
> 
> ...



I respect your thoughtful consideration of the issues involved in the decision that you are facing on behalf of your son.

No, this is not how all schools conduct black belt tests, whether the tests are for adults or for children. So, this approach is not an inherent part of Taekwondo or of the martial arts. It is just an inherent part of *some* schools' approach to testing. As you have seen already from the replies that you have received, people's opinions vary quite a bit based on what their experience has been, their understanding of children, what they believe a black belt and a black belt test mean, their understanding of family dynamics, their understanding of teaching and assessment, and so on. The bottom line is that you know your son better than anyone else. You also know your own values better than anyone else. And you also know the situation at your school better than anyone on this board. Your son will learn lessons from this experience, no matter what choice you make, including but not limited to:

1. What it is like to face a challenge (i.e., the test) that goes well.
2. What it is like to face a challenge that goes poorly.
3. What it is like to do a self-evaluation and decide that he's not ready for the challenge, but is willing to keep training for another year.
4. What it is like to do a self-evaluation and decide that he's not ready for the challenge and just quit completely.
5. What it is like for his parents to decide that his school's approach does not match his family's standards for understanding of and responsiveness to a child's needs, valuing of parental supervision, trust of parental wisdom, trust in and collaboration with parents, and so on.
6. How to vote with your feet (i.e., standing up for what you believe in by taking your business elsewhere). Note that this is most definitely not the same thing as running away from a problem or protecting your son from a challenge he could/should have faced. You could even research the other schools in the area, including talking with them about what you are experiencing at your current school. Although change can be hard, and may not be needed, knowing what your options are could help you feel more confident about the decision you ultimately make.
7. How to process a difficult decision (e.g., listening to your gut, as well as rationally exploring options, values, needs, pros and cons).
8. What it's like to have to make a decision when you may never really know if it was the right one or not.

Best wishes to you and your son,

Cynthia


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

Cynthia that is possibly the best reply I have seen on here.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> we live in a lawsuite happy nation, sad but true. And so sorry, but as a parent, i would walk the hell out the first time some one told me i couldnt be there with my CHILD during anything.



And we would wish you well on your journey.



> too many molester karate instructors to EVER allow that. I am NOT casting any accusation on Mr Sharkey, or you. I am just totally opposed to not allowing parents to be with thier kids.


I understand your concern.  Keep in mind that the kids are tested at the same time as the adults.  Kids will be in back of the floor area and adults in the front of the floor area.  On average there are usually 10-20 adult black belts on the board to do the test.  It is not one person with one child at a testing.  Not too mention, as I said, a group of other adults present taking the test.  We have never done nor do I think we will we ever do a black belt testing for one person. 



> If you are doing things that parents try to stop, that is something you should think about tho.


They do it out of parental instinct.  As I said, watching my own son going through it, it was hard not to step in and make sure he is ok or to tell the person testing him to cut him some slack.  Even at the break I could not go over and talk to him and check up on him.  So to a parent who has never trained or never trained at our school they will not understand what we are doing.  Regardless, we are not mentally or physically abusing them.  We are, however, pushing them to and beyond their limits.

It is hard to explain to anyone outside of our school because, well you are not part of the school and so do not know what they are put through in their training.   Parents get to watch all their tests up to their highest guep/kyu rank.  We are hard on them for those tests as well.  So by the time the kids are ready for a Jr. BB test, they parents have a good idea of what they are in for.


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## jks9199 (Mar 6, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> any school that wont let parents be present?
> 
> quit
> 
> ...



This is where I have concerns as well. A black belt test should be challenging, hard and even stressful or what does it mean?  And it should mark a transition in training just like various school diplomas mark changes in expectations for students. And I can deal with some secrecy about the test process. But the level of secrecy here bothers me. What goes on that's got to be so covert?

Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 6, 2012)

"There is no right way to do a wrong thing." Tony George


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Yes, we would refuse.  The bottom line is that it distracts the student and we explain that to the parent.  These kids need to be 100% focused on the test. What purpose would it hold for them sit there for 4-5 hours?  We cannot have the parents coming in and out at their convenience, they cannot take pictures, and there is NO outside discussions allowed, even from those present at the test. Even during their water breaks they do not converse.
> 
> Regardless if you feel it is wrong or not, it is how Sensei Sharkey has ran his black belt tests since he has had them some 30+ years ago and will continue to do  so.


I want to be very clear.  You can run your business as you wish.  I'd NEVER allow my child to be a part of any organization that is secretive and cultish in this way.  I cannot imagine any responsible parent doing so.  l wonder at the complete lack of judgement on the part of the organization AND the parents.  Frankly, this seems so self-apparent to me that I am literally having trouble processing the utter absence of common sense.

We're not talking about warriors or samurai or ninja or soldiers.  We're talking about children.  Pushing children and motivating them is one thing.  "Testing" them in such a way that even someone who has been a part of the organization admits that their instincts were to "rescue" the children is so bizarre, it is literally boggling my mind.  

And certainly, in the case of the OP, where such a testing represents a radical departure from any experience the child has had in the school previously is irresponsible and reckless.  If you're going to test a child under harsh and grueling conditions, I'm not against it, provided you have adequately prepared the child both physically and mentally for the test, AND you are partnering at EVERY step with the parents.  The parents are NOT impediments, if you're doing it correctly and getting their support.  

Bottom line, I've managed to raise two strong, independent, thoughtful, intelligent teenagers by trusting my instincts.  I have a toddler who is respectful, polite, fearless and joyful.  My instincts have served me well.  My instincts tell me that your approach is not in the best interest of the kids, and this secretive, cultish approach to martial arts is EXACTLY the problem I have with these kinds of "traditional" schools.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

This is also an interesting thread in light of the disabilities thread from last week.  Punuui and several others compared a TKD black belt to a high school diploma and were very clear that they believed that it should be attainable by everyone.  

The question I have is why TKD seems to have no middle ground.  If it exists, where is it?  You guys seem to go from one extreme to another.  A black belt is either a low level rite of passage, or it is worth risking a child's emotional, physical and mental wellness in its pursuit and parents are barred from witnessing the testing for fear that they will feel compelled to rescue their child.  What the hell?  Seriously.  What the hell?


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## Buka (Mar 6, 2012)

Should a black belt test be stressful? Damn right it should be.

But not for eight year olds. I'm sorry, I know you set parameters on this thread about not wanting to hear "he's too young". But he's too young. Hate me all you want, it doesn't change the fact. Frankly, it's dicracefull.


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## miguksaram (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> I want to be very clear.  You can run your business as you wish.  I'd NEVER allow my child to be a part of any organization that is secretive and cultish in this way.


What is cultish about it?  We are in a closed off environment is all.  As I mentioned before the parents can sit and watch all their tests up to their highest rank.  We do not do sacrifices or chant or pay homage to any great power.  We are not secretive.  The parents are told what is going on and why they are not allowed to be there.  



> I cannot imagine any responsible parent doing so.  l wonder at the complete lack of judgement on the part of the organization AND the parents.  Frankly, this seems so self-apparent to me that I am literally having trouble processing the utter absence of common sense.


So now you are questioning my parental skills and common sense as well as my methodology of testing...any other insults you would like to hurl over my way why you are at it?



> We're not talking about warriors or samurai or ninja or soldiers.  We're talking about children.  Pushing children and motivating them is one thing.  "Testing" them in such a way that even someone who has been a part of the organization admits that their instincts were to "rescue" the children is so bizarre, it is literally boggling my mind.


Again, as I already said, it is hard to explain to someone who is not part of our school or its culture.  If you were, you would understand, since you are not, please do not question my parental skills, common sense or what we do without first training with us.



> And certainly, in the case of the OP, where such a testing represents a radical departure from any experience the child has had in the school previously is irresponsible and reckless.  If you're going to test a child under harsh and grueling conditions, I'm not against it, provided you have adequately prepared the child both physically and mentally for the test, AND you are partnering at EVERY step with the parents.  The parents are NOT impediments, if you're doing it correctly and getting their support.


Again, if you bothered to read my other postings you would see that the parents see how we test our kids through out their duration of learning from us.  They know exactly what their kids will be getting into once they are about to take a Jr. BB test.  They know why we do not allow them to stick around for that particular test.  Clear and simple...they are not without common sense nor are we behaving in a cultist manner.  



> Bottom line, I've managed to raise two strong, independent, thoughtful, intelligent teenagers by trusting my instincts.  I have a toddler who is respectful, polite, fearless and joyful.  My instincts have served me well.  My instincts tell me that your approach is not in the best interest of the kids, and this secretive, cultish approach to martial arts is EXACTLY the problem I have with these kinds of "traditional" schools.


Congrats on your instincts...guess what, I have three great kids (23 year old girl, 17 year old boy, and 15 year old boy).  They are strong independent thinkers as well.  I have trusted my instincts as well and it has served me as well.  My boys have both been through this test and are better for it.  Nothing they face in school has yet to put the type of pressure on them like their JR. BB test.  Because of that, they don't stress out on such little things because they know they can handle it.  
What we do, which again you really have no clue about, outside of some words typed here, may not be in the best interest of YOUR kids, but do not state that it is not in the best interest or all kids.  We have raised several world champions and a slew of national champions, we have black belts that have gone on to be pastors and run their own charities to help feed those in need.  We have Jr. BB's who travel the world doing seminars and entertaining the US Troops AND still keep a 3.0 GPA in their school.  You may not agree with how we run our BB test.  Fine...don't train with us, but do not begin to sit there and insult our the parents who do allow their kids to train here and do not accuse of of cultist like behavior just because you don't know or understand how we function.


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## elder999 (Mar 6, 2012)

Buka said:


> Should a black belt test be stressful? Damn right it should be.
> 
> But not for eight year olds. I'm sorry, I know you set parameters on this thread about not wanting to hear "he's too young". But he's too young. Hate me all you want, it doesn't change the fact. Frankly, it's dicracefull.



Not necessarily disgraceful-it should be the exception, though, and not the rule:











BTW-if your eight year old "black belt" isn't doing it like these guys, he probably isn't "ready," or a black belt.


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## terryl965 (Mar 6, 2012)

Well first off if your son is not strong enough mentally to take rejection than he should not be testing for his BB. Sorry but that is simply the truth, dis-appointment is part of life. I am pretty sure when he first strated riding his bike he fell a couple of time but he kept getting back on to try again and finally it came together. We learn more by failing than by winning. Some of my best BB are those that had to comeback and test again so they did not fail but rather they grew, thisis what needs to be told to your son.

My second concern is a close venue, my test has portion that we ask the parents to please leave not because we do not want them but simply so the student can focus on there techniques. But when parents are told they cannot be there, I have a problem with it. We kindly ask for the parents to get up but if they insist we let them stay with them knowing if the child is looking at them and getting any help they will most likely fail. That always helps them but they just go into my office and can watch from my two way mirror so they really can see them the child just cannot see the parent but we also have that for spouses as well.

If I was you I would not let him test for another year just so he can grow emotionally more, but that is simply up to you and his instructor.


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## Gorilla (Mar 6, 2012)

My kids have been thru ordeal BB tests one of them was 13 hours.  My only problem is not letting the parents watch.  To many problems now a days.  I would instruct the parents to remain quite and if they don't follow the rules their child fails.

I am a big believer that you should not let your kids out of your sight at that age.  I am very suspicious of someone who would suggest that I should.


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## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Well first off if your son is not strong enough mentally to take rejection than he should not be testing for his BB. Sorry but that is simply the truth, dis-appointment is part of life. I am pretty sure when he first strated riding his bike he fell a couple of time but he kept getting back on to try again and finally it came together. We learn more by failing than by winning. Some of my best BB are those that had to comeback and test again so they did not fail but rather they grew, thisis what needs to be told to your son.
> 
> My second concern is a close venue, my test has portion that we ask the parents to please leave not because we do not want them but simply so the student can focus on there techniques. But when parents are told they cannot be there, I have a problem with it. We kindly ask for the parents to get up but if they insist we let them stay with them knowing if the child is looking at them and getting any help they will most likely fail. That always helps them but they just go into my office and can watch from my two way mirror so they really can see them the child just cannot see the parent but we also have that for spouses as well.
> 
> If I was you I would not let him test for another year just so he can grow emotionally more, but that is simply up to you and his instructor.



Just to state it, he has failed pre-testings and has had to wait to test, he was bummed but he kept going. I think it is different to fail than to have the chance to try taken from you at the last minute. There is a very long list of things he has had to do to get ready including written tests, Essay, Bio, portfolio, poster board and extra training sessions. To have him do all of this and then take his opportunity away to try is wrong. Since I have no idea what goes on I relied on the Owners knowledge to make the judgment. I was told the only way he would fail was if he quit. I was also told they felt he was ready. I am annoyed with the last minute change of mind. After all that has been said here I am going to speak with the owners and see if I can't get an idea of what goes on. I do not think we will be there for the long haul after this but I feel he should get the chance. I think I have prepared him mentally as best I can and I will hope his want to get his BB will pull him through. I do like your explanation that "they did not fail they grew". I will have to use that 

After all of this I really think is a school wants to go hard core and "old school" with their testing they need to be very clear up front and they should have an age limit. Part of me wants to pull him now and part wants to let him try. Thanks all!


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> This is also an interesting thread in light of the disabilities thread from last week.  Punuui and several others compared a TKD black belt to a high school diploma and were very clear that they believed that it should be attainable by everyone.



That's true. To me 1st dan is the lowest rank on a scale from 1 through 9 or 10. However, some people look at a "black belt" as the highest rank on the color belt scale. That seems to be the distinction. Personally, I don't see what the big deal is about black belts and children. If someone does not wish to promote children to "black belt" then they shouldn't do so. If others wish to promote kids to black belt, then they can do that as well. Many of my students have gone on to open their own school. I never tell them what to do or how to teach. When they ask if this or that is alright, I always give them the same answer "It's up to you. You are the teacher, not me. Do whatever you want." 




Steve said:


> The question I have is why TKD seems to have no middle ground.  If it exists, where is it?  You guys seem to go from one extreme to another.  A black belt is either a low level rite of passage, or it is worth risking a child's emotional, physical and mental wellness in its pursuit and parents are barred from witnessing the testing for fear that they will feel compelled to rescue their child.  What the hell?  Seriously.  What the hell?



Personally, I don't believe in overly long, multi day, grueling ordeals for tests, black belt or otherwise. But that is just me. If others feel that sort of thing is necessary, because they feel that "black belt" is some sort of huge rite of passage, then they are free to do that.


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## cay22 (Mar 6, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> My kids have been thru ordeal BB tests one of them was 13 hours.  My only problem is not letting the parents watch.  To many problems now a days.  I would instruct the parents to remain quite and if they don't follow the rules their child fails.
> 
> I am a big believer that you should not let your kids out of your sight at that age.  I am very suspicious of someone who would suggest that I should.



They do have a wall of one way mirrors separating the waiting room and the floor so it would be easy to let the parents sit and view without distracting the kids.


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## Archtkd (Mar 6, 2012)

cay22 said:


> Okay I want to start with a disclaimer, I do not want this to turn into a is he too young discussion. I have read the posts and I know how some of you feel about kids as BBs. In his school they do allow kids as young as 7-8 to test for BB so that is just the way it is there (Although I am beginning to think they should raise the age).
> 
> That being said here is what I need input on. My son has been taking TKD for 3.5 yrs and he is 8. He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show.
> -Kate


I stopped reading after the line about parents. Why would anyone tell me I can't see what my 8-year-old son or daughter is doing in a blacked-out room with a bunch of adults, for an entire day? Would you agree to such terms if this was a day-long spiritual ordeal being conducted by nuns, pastors, rabbis, imams, etc, in a blacked-out house of worship? Would you agree to a parental ban if this was a Boyscout sort of skills review of 8-year old children in a campsite blocked out to the general public? Who agrees to this kind of nonsense?


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## Instructor (Mar 6, 2012)

cay22 said:


> They do have a wall of one way mirrors separating the waiting room and the floor so it would be easy to let the parents sit and view without distracting the kids.



To me this seems ideal.


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> What is cultish about it?  We are in a closed off environment is all.  As I mentioned before the parents can sit and watch all their tests up to their highest rank.  We do not do sacrifices or chant or pay homage to any great power.  We are not secretive.  The parents are told what is going on and why they are not allowed to be there.


Who the hell knows what's going on in there?  You refuse to allow the parents to witness it.  That's what makes it cultish.  





> So now you are questioning my parental skills and common sense as well as my methodology of testing...any other insults you would like to hurl over my way why you are at it?


I'm certainly questioning your policy of refusing to allow parents to witness the testing if they choose to.  I have no idea what methodology of testing you use, and I don't know what kind of a parent you are.  I'm sure you're father of the year.  The policy outlined by you is alarming to me.  


> Again, as I already said, it is hard to explain to someone who is not part of our school or its culture.  If you were, you would understand, since you are not, please do not question my parental skills, common sense or what we do without first training with us.


And again you wonder what about this is cultish?  And again, this has nothing to do with your parental skills, however much you'd like to personalize it.  It's about your school's policy to refuse parents access to witness what you admit is testing so severe that you yourself felt compelled to "rescue" the children.  





> Again, if you bothered to read my other postings you would see that the parents see how we test our kids through out their duration of learning from us.  They know exactly what their kids will be getting into once they are about to take a Jr. BB test.  They know why we do not allow them to stick around for that particular test.  Clear and simple...they are not without common sense nor are we behaving in a cultist manner.


And again if you would recall your own post where you mentioned testing children so severely that you felt compelled to save them, you might get an inkling of where to an objective, outside perspective, the policy would be seen as irresponsible.  You're accusing me of failing to read your posts, but I only have your own words to which I can react.  





> Congrats on your instincts


Thank you.  





> ...guess what, I have three great kids (23 year old girl, 17 year old boy, and 15 year old boy).  They are strong independent thinkers as well.  I have trusted my instincts as well and it has served me as well.  My boys have both been through this test and are better for it.  Nothing they face in school has yet to put the type of pressure on them like their JR. BB test.  Because of that, they don't stress out on such little things because they know they can handle it.


Were you able to witness their testing?  Not really relevant, but I'm curious.  Regarding your parenting, as I said before, I'm sure you're a great parent.  And again, the actual testing isn't really the question, because you could literally say anything you'd like about it.  No one gets to see it, because it's a closed door ceremony.  Do you really not understand the distinction?   We can't even get to the actual test because it all stops at two things:  your admission that the test is so severe that even you, familiar with the test, felt compelled to "rescue" kids from it, and it's done behind closed doors where a parent cannot see what is happening to a minor child.  





> What we do, which again you really have no clue about, outside of some words typed here, may not be in the best interest of YOUR kids, but do not state that it is not in the best interest or all kids. We have raised several world champions and a slew of national champions, we have black belts that have gone on to be pastors and run their own charities to help feed those in need.We have Jr. BB's who travel the world doing seminars and entertaining the US Troops AND still keep a 3.0 GPA in their school.  You may not agree with how we run our BB test.  Fine...don't train with us, but do not begin to sit there and insult our the parents who do allow their kids to train here and do not accuse of of cultist like behavior just because you don't know or understand how we function.


And Michael Jackson's dad raised a family of motown superstars, and he was later exposed as both physically and mentally abusive to his kids.   Bob Knight produced a number of championship teams and NBA standouts, but he was an angry jackass.  Jerry Sandusky taught as a part of one of the most successful and beloved college football coaching staffs ever, and he was a child molester.

What's your point?  Is this an appeal to authority?  That because you have a good record, every policy you have is wise?  We only find out about these guys after the fact, and when it's exposed everyone is surprised.  

The point is that it's closed doors and promises of success that take advantage of parents who trust too willingly, allowing authority figures to take advantage.  That your school promotes a situation like this is alarming in exactly the way outlined above.  As I said before, I just can't imagine anyone thinking it's a good idea.  Jerry Sandusky was, by all accounts a GREAT coach.  Bob Knight, too.  I could literally name dozens of situations similar to these.  The one thing they all have in common is that they all involve keeping secrets and separating the parents from the children.


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> The point is that it's closed doors and promises of success that take advantage of parents who trust too willingly, allowing authority figures to take advantage.  That your school promotes a situation like this is alarming in exactly the way outlined above.  As I said before, I just can't imagine anyone thinking it's a good idea.  Jerry Sandusky was, by all accounts a GREAT coach.  Bob Knight, too.  I could literally name dozens of situations similar to these.  The one thing they all have in common is that they all involve keeping secrets and separating the parents from the children.



I think that if parents want to watch, they should be allowed to. Afterall, they are the ones paying. I've asked certain parents to wait outside/come back later and not watch class, but that was an individual situation involving a disruptive parent, rather than a general rule. However, I don't know it if is a logical or appropriate conclusion that just because a school does have a closed door black belt test, that something fishy is going on. In the situation that you give above, I think the separation of the parent from the child is more about isolating a potential victim or victim from others, which wouldn't be the situation at a belt test with 20-100 or more people participating, of all ages, children and adults.


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I would never teach a child without providing ready viewing access to the parents as well.  My lawyer was very clear on that when we went over my operational plan for potential liability.  Sometimes even the perception that something isn't kosher is enough to bring in all sorts of legal entanglements even when you've done nothing wrong at all.



I might even go so far as to say you should never be alone with a child. I think I told this story before, but I was judging at a friend's belt test and went to use the bathroom during a break. I was walking out when this small boy looked up at me and asked me to pull his pants down so he could pee. I told him he should ask his mother or father to help him with that. We were the only ones in the restroom. But imagine if I had done as the boy requested and someone swung the restroom door open in the middle of that? How do you explain that one? Talk about stress at a belt test....


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

I'm gonna get SO much crap for this, but I don't care.

My BB grading was an hour and a half. The instructor has taught me for my entire life, coached me in multiple national and international tournaments, and was the one who prepared me for my grading. The instructor knows whether or not his students are black belt material, why put them through the ringer to prove a point?


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I'm gonna get SO much crap for this, but I don't care.
> 
> My BB grading was an hour and a half. The instructor has taught me for my entire life, coached me in multiple national and international tournaments, and was the one who prepared me for my grading. The instructor knows whether or not his students are black belt material, why put them through the ringer to prove a point?



Why would you get crap?


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> Why would you get crap?



I think some people might be of the opinion that if you do not go through a long arduous ordeal, then your "black belt" isn't earned, it was given to you, which is not the same thing as going through a long process of sweating, straining, bleeding, suffering, etc.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> Why would you get crap?
> 
> 
> Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.



Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.

Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think some people might be of the opinion that if you do not go through a long arduous ordeal, then your "black belt" isn't earned, it was given to you, which is not the same thing as going through a long process of sweating, straining, bleeding, suffering, etc.



Yes, that's it.

To me, I spent the 7 years or so combined experience leading up to it sweating, straining bleeding and suffering .


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## puunui (Mar 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students.



I don't advocate that.




ETinCYQX said:


> I don't see a need for it.



Neither do I. It is just a 1st dan, not a frat initiation. 




ETinCYQX said:


> Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?



That is how it is done here. I find it ironic that the style that is in my opinion one of the hardest to get a "black belt" in, has no real promotion test process. They just hand you your new belt, and often times it is someone else's old belt to boot.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't advocate that.
> 
> Neither do I. It is just a 1st dan, not a frat initiation.
> 
> That is how it is done here. I find it ironic that the style that is in my opinion one of the hardest to get a "black belt" in, has no real promotion test process. They just hand you your new belt, and often times it is someone else's old belt to boot.



When I really do own my own dojang and don't have to answer to an instructor I have toyed with the idea of doing promotions this way, just handing them to martial artists who deserve them. We used to do that with stripes in our PTF/early WTF era. If you deserve it, you deserve it.

I have one student in mind, as well, that I'd like to give my black belt to when he reaches first Dan. Not sure I'll still have anything to do with his tkd training at that point though.

I'd forgotten actually you mentioned shorter, less grueling tests. Sorry to exclude you, sir


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## Steve (Mar 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.
> 
> Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?



Yup.  Well, there's some celebration, and in my experience they've been handed out at special events like a seminar, but, I've never seen anyone test for it.  The idea is that you are testing every day.

But just to be clear, I'm not against tough tests.  To each his own.  

I'm very against a person I've hired presuming to ever attempt to exclude me from anything concerning a child of mine.  

Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

Steve said:


> Yup.  Well, there's some celebration, and in my experience they've been handed out at special events like a seminar, but, I've never seen anyone test for it.  The idea is that you are testing every day.
> 
> But just to be clear, I'm not against tough tests.  To each his own.
> 
> ...



I'm not against them I just don't use them myself


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## ballen0351 (Mar 6, 2012)

All i can say is im shocked any parent would let there small children under 13 out of there site with any adult.  There are no background checks for martial art instructors.  You only know what they want you to know.  Skilled child molesters are just as skilled at gaining a parents trust as they are the childs.  I dont allow my kids anywhere without me or my wife.  Even in school we pop in from time to time just to check up on things.  

My question would be is an 8 year old black belt the same as a 28 year old black belt?  Or do they need to test for an adult belt later when they are an adult?  If its the same test, to same standards then i doubt its  very challenging for the adult.  And if it has different standards, which it would have to be different just due to size strength and stamina then there is no point in keeping the kids hidden from the parents.  Keep them in a different room ok as long as they can see whats going on but blacking out windows really were not teaching some super top secret death art.  There are martial art schools in every town and clips of everything ever taught on you tube no need for all the shhhhhh this is so secret we cant even show your mom or we will have to kill her crap.  Its martial arts not the CIA.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 6, 2012)

mine was about 90 minutes for 1st dan

2nd was MUCH longer


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 6, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> mine was about 90 minutes for 1st dan
> 
> 2nd was MUCH longer



My 2nd's gonna be close to the same, 3rd is instructor rank here for the most part so I think I have to write a paper for that. Not positive.


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## mastercole (Mar 6, 2012)

To me, some people make way to much out of a Dan or Poom test.  1st Dan or Poom is a low level practitioner, 1 step above a 1st geup, like 1st geup was 1 step above 2nd geup.

All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.

Perfect situation = Excellent instructor + Excellent student

Not so perfect situation = Excellent instructor + not so excellent student

Bad situation = Uneducated ignorant instructor + any student

As a parent, one of our goals should be to raise our children to achieve their potential in all that they can. This helps create an excellent student, for any subject.  A part of that goal is finding the right teachers, excellent teachers who can help our children reach their potential in a given field of study.

As a teacher, our only goal is not to be that uneducated ignorant instructor, for the uneducated ignorant instructor smothers their students with the wrong motive, preventing them from reaching their potential.

That said, the Dan and Poom test can be open /closed - whatever, as long as the instructor is excellent, it will come out right because the motive of the instructor is right.

If the instructor is bad, then it is all bad, whatever it is.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 6, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think some people might be of the opinion that if you do not go through a long arduous ordeal, then your "black belt" isn't earned, it was given to you, which is not the same thing as going through a long process of sweating, straining, bleeding, suffering, etc.



I understand that some people feel that way, but I personally don't see the need for it. Of course, none of my tests were particularly long or arduous. I've always spent more time waiting for my turn than actual time on the mat. My last test (at Kukkiwon) probably took 10 minutes or less to complete, not counting waiting in line. Actually, the color belt students at our club have a longer test than that.

I know after nearly 20 years of practice that it doesn't take a long time watching someone to see if they are skilled, even if I've never seen them before. If I can do it, then I feel pretty sure other people can, too, especially people with more experience than me.


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## mastercole (Mar 6, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I understand that some people feel that way, but I personally don't see the need for it. Of course, none of my tests were particularly long or arduous. I've always spent more time waiting for my turn than actual time on the mat. My last test (at Kukkiwon) probably took 10 minutes or less to complete, not counting waiting in line. Actually, the color belt students at our club have a longer test than that.
> 
> I know after nearly 20 years of practice that it doesn't take a long time watching someone to see if they are skilled, even if I've never seen them before. If I can do it, then I feel pretty sure other people can, too, especially people with more experience than me.



If a person is performing their best, I can tell in a minute, most likely seconds if they are skilled or not.  I don't need to see them swim the Great Lakes, kill a goat, swallow a flaming sword, eat broken glass, walk on hot coals, pierce their forearms with crochet needles, stay awake for a week, eat a bean a day for a month, etc to know that.


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## jks9199 (Mar 6, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.
> 
> Most of the time, BJJ brown belts are just handed a black belt one day right?



There's a place, at least in Western society today, for a coming of age right or challenge, and one place (not the only one!) to find that can be a martial arts program.  But that doesn't mean that the test has to be some sort of ultimate torture test/crucible combination of BUD/S and fraternity hazing; it just has to be an experience that's out of the norm, and that pushes you in a way you haven't been pushed before.

There are a couple types of tests.  Some tests are simply demonstrations that sort of put a cap or finale on your training to that point.  They recognize that you've achieved that level.  Others make you prove the level you've achieved.  (Most BJJ schools I'm aware of do this throughout; you get a new belt when you're besting those at your current level consistently, and pushing those at the next level.  Whether or not there's an actual test experience.)  And some are that crucible/right of passage that I mentioned.

On the topic of parents watching -- I said it was a concern.  It doesn't automatically make it a bad program or put nefarious intent on those who prohibit parents from watching.  But it raises red flags.  Especially when they refuse to even explain the test to the parents.  In the Boy Scouts of America, there is a special program called the Order of the Arrow.  The Ordeal is the initiation into the brotherhood; there's a right or ritual and it's kept "secret" to make it more meaningful.  But if there are parents with concerns, there are provisions for them to review and see the content.  But, apparently, at this school -- what goes on in the Black Belt Panel is kept completely secret.  That's a red flag.  Again -- it doesn't mean that there IS a problem, but why that level of secrecy?  Especially in a program involving *8 year olds*?


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## Archtkd (Mar 7, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> There's a place, at least in Western society today, for a coming of age right or challenge, and one place (not the only one!) to find that can be a martial arts program.  But that doesn't mean that the test has to be some sort of ultimate torture test/crucible combination of BUD/S and fraternity hazing; it just has to be an experience that's out of the norm, and that pushes you in a way you haven't been pushed before.



I grew up in a part of Kenya where coming of age is a very big deal, involving serious rituals that I will not write about here so as not to derail the thread. I don't believe that coming of age, though -- in any society -- shoul come at the early age of 8. Mind you I'm not saying we should not have 8-year old blackbelts, but rather that we should not consider an 8-year old blackbelt to be someone who's moved from the childhood stage -- the transition for which most coming of age rites are performed. There's a big likelihood that my 7-year old son will make blackbelt before he is 8, but he's not having any coming of age events until he is at least 13.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> To me, some people make way to much out of a Dan or Poom test.  1st Dan or Poom is a low level practitioner, 1 step above a 1st geup, like 1st geup was 1 step above 2nd geup.
> 
> All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.
> 
> ...


You say that you see black belt as "a low level practitioner", but wouldnt that change from club to club and art to art? I mean, Im sure bjj guys dont see a black belt as a low level practitioner and I know where we train we dont view a black belt that way either. That may be the case where you train, but you cant really generalise that across all clubs and martial arts.


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## lifespantkd (Mar 7, 2012)

Steve said:


> The idea is that you are testing every day.



That's certainly how I approach my training. I see testing as an opportunity to assess what I have learned and where I'd like to go from that point on. But, I also do this every time I practice Taekwondo.

Cynthia


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## mastercole (Mar 7, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You say that you see black belt as "a low level practitioner", but wouldnt that change from club to club and art to art? I mean, Im sure bjj guys dont see a black belt as a low level practitioner and I know where we train we dont view a black belt that way either. That may be the case where you train, but you cant really generalise that across all clubs and martial arts.



For you or anyone it can be whatever you like, simply pick something.


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## elder999 (Mar 7, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:
			
		

> You say that you see black belt as "a low level practitioner", but wouldnt that change from club to club and art to art? I mean, Im sure bjj guys dont see a black belt as a low level practitioner and I know where we train we dont view a black belt that way either. That may be the case where you train, but you cant really generalise that across all clubs and martial arts.



Shodan_=first step._

For some, it's an entrance into secrets-a step through a gate on a journey-not the culmination of a journey, but graduation onto the way, and the way is *hard.

For others, it's just another step-no big deal, and it shouldn't be.

i've seen both: my tae kwon do Chudan test took a little less than 2 hours, and was really no big deal. My kyokushin test took..an awful lot out of me, never mind the time-I was 16 for both of them, though-they both were hard, really, though I didn't need to sleep the rest of the weekend away after the tae kwon do one. :lol:

In Judo, it just kind of happened-I was competing against black belts, so I was one.Yonezuka sensei just tossed me a belt, and said,[Here. put this on.

In Miyama ryu jujutsu, the hard test is the one for first kyu-that last brown belt before black belt.It takes around six hours, and the test boils down to Demonstrate the entire system, then defend against a judo shodan and a karate shodan, and if you're as perverse as I am. a boxer. 

The rankings that come afterward-not so hard.

I've been in on a few rankings-maybe more than "a few"- though, where the belt -shodan- was simply awarded at the end of class-though it had been a pretty hard class-they didn't know they were going to get promoted. I can see some merit in all those ways, really-in the end, it doesn't really matter that much which way it is, what matters is how the value of it is perceived, and what was done to earn it.*


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## andyjeffries (Mar 7, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Maybe not "crap", but seems like everyone but me advocates 4 and 5 hour tests designed to break students. I don't see a need for it.



Just to let you know, you're definitely not alone.  I think my 1st dan test was shorter than yours!  I don't advocate long gruelling tests - join the marines if you want that *****!

I've always been of the opinion that if you can't judge whether you would promote someone to a particular rank within a few minutes you shouldn't be testing them.

Just to add my 2p, I wouldn't let my child go to a school where the parents aren't allowed to watch.  I think the potential for abuse is too great.  I understand parents being asked to watch from a separate room (glass windows) so they don't distract the child.  The school may raise great champions/martial artists, but if anything were to happen it would mentally scar that child for life - and personally I'm not willing to take that risk.

I believe the BTCB gradings are like this though - no one but the testees and their instructors are allowed in the grading hall.  I disagree with that.

When I last tested students (a small catch-up test for those that weren't ready at testing time) I had one parent ask if she could watch the test.  My reply was "of course, I'm sure X would love the support.  I'll put some chairs behind where they'll be testing.  Just please be quiet, not shouting encouragement as it may break their concentration".  She was over the moon with that and I was too - I love when parents are supportive of their children in martial arts and not just treating it like some free time without the kids (I have a mixture of both).


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## jks9199 (Mar 7, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I grew up in a part of Kenya where coming of age is a very big deal, involving serious rituals that I will not write about here so as not to derail the thread. I don't believe that coming of age, though -- in any society -- shoul come at the early age of 8. Mind you I'm not saying we should not have 8-year old blackbelts, but rather that we should not consider an 8-year old blackbelt to be someone who's moved from the childhood stage -- the transition for which most coming of age rites are performed. There's a big likelihood that my 7-year old son will make blackbelt before he is 8, but he's not having any coming of age events until he is at least 13.



Sorry; I wasn't at all suggesting that 8 years old is appropriate for a coming of age.  It's simply one reason why there is indeed a space for a challenging, stressful black belt test.  I personally don't believe in black belts below age 18 -- though that's a little bit astray of the topic.

For kiddie black belts?  The tests should be appropriately scaled; reasonably challenging but not nearly the same as an adult test.  An 8 or 9 year old simply can't do the same things as an adult, in many ways.  As someone else already said -- a test that challenges an 8 year old would probably be pretty easy for an adult!


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## StudentCarl (Mar 7, 2012)

To me the training is the test; the 'test' should be a demonstration rather than answering a question. I understand the idea of making a test a rite of passage or a 'proving', but I think that regular training habits and skills tell you more about a person overall than a single test...though I agree with the sentiment that a skilled instructor/practitioner can evaluate a person's skills in a pretty short time. Skills alone don't tell the story. I guess that comes back to how you define a black belt; I think dedication, habits, and consistency matter as much or more. Who has initiative, dogged perseverence, independence, spirit?  I also think that real pressure testing should be part of training, not a novelty or curveball on test day.

As a comparison of character, I know people who practice their religion on Sunday when they dress up and go to church, but the rest of the week you'd wonder what guides them. I also know people who never attend church who live with more faith and moral character than those who attend regularly. People who test well don't necessarily make good black belts.

My black belt test was a couple of hours. I've had harder, more grueling mental, emotional and physical times in team training sessions. It really comes down to what you sign up for.

One concern for the OP is that it sounds like the story has changed. If the story changes, the product you're buying is no longer what was promised.  If so, how can you trust them?

Carl


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## decepticon (Mar 7, 2012)

Although my daughter is now 13, I have very strong feelings about activities for younger kids. NO ONE, and I mean No One, ever took her away from me into any secret place where I could not be present. Not doctors, orthodontists, religious leaders, or martial arts instructors. I was highly indignant toward those few who tried to do so and left their facilities in short order. It ticks me off even now, to think that anyone else believes they have the right to do anything to my child without my consent. How dare anyone try to preempt the rights of parents! (Can you see the bristling of my bear fur?)

That said, I do understand how some parents could be a hinderance to belt testing. I think it would be reasonable to have some form explaining to them what they were about to see, what it was intended to accomplish, and what behavior was expected of them during the test. They could then sign, promising to keep quiet/not disruptive during the test or agreeing to take their student and leave the testing area - no passing grade, no refund. And they could certainly have the option of waiting outside the room and/or not watching, if they doubted their resolve to keep out of it. 

During my daughter's childhood, there were often times when I chose to leave her alone in a class or activity. But it was my choice and I always retained the option to pop in, should I desire to do so. Any time parents were barred (with the understandable exceptions of kids making surprise Mother's Day or Christmas presents, or what not), that sent up a huge red flag to me. What were they planning to do in there that they expected I would object to? If a parent - the person morally and legally charged with ensuring the safety of their children - would object, then what possible justification would be strong enough to override their wishes? After all, they are the ones paying for the service - they are the actual clients and are the ones you need to keep happy.

I agree that putting 8yo's under such pressure that their parents would be tempted to remove them from it is a tremendously risky scenario. It seems very dangerous to me to put the reputation of the school and instructors into the hands of what are often highly excitable and imaginative 8yo's. Doesn't matter whether other BB's were present or whether the kid is just making stuff up. Word of mouth spreads like wildfire and a reputation is a fragile thing that can be quickly damaged, even by untrue and unfair accusations.

Let's face it. We all have a pretty good idea of what 8yo's are capable of in terms of martial arts. Regardless of the color of their belts, they still have 8yo brains and are limited in their judgement, perspective, and comprehension. While martial arts may help them to learn to handle stress to the best of their ability, it can not change their innate ability. No amount of martial arts training or testing can change that biology. 

To the original poster, ditch that school and fast! Kind of makes you wonder what else have they been up to that they are not telling parents, since they seem to feel it is okay to keep parents in the dark about some things. Cut your losses and count yourself lucky to get out before anything really bad happens. Find another school that has more of an open door policy. If your child gained valid skills during his time there, they will transfer to a new setting and enable him to progress well and rapidly. If the skills don't seem to transfer well (I'm talking about basic things like balance, stamina, attention span, kicks, blocks, strikes, etc.), then you really have to question the quality of the instruction he was receiving - better to get out now than to throw any more money down that hole.


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## Steve (Mar 7, 2012)

Well, this will echo what I said in the previous black belts for people with disabilities thread, but as far as I'm concerned, if you're consistent and transparent, I have no issue with whatever you decide to do.

If your black belt tests are grueling, multi-day affairs involving being pushed to the limits of your physical and mental endurance, great.  As long as the training has led in a logical, safe way to that point, the expectations are clearly communicated and that, in the case of minors, the parents are involved partners at every step.   

These three simple criteria are, I believe, common sense and good business, regardless of how you view a black belt.


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## msmitht (Mar 7, 2012)

a belt test is supposed to test the student on the curricula that they have been taught in class. If they have been taught correctly then there should be no problem on exam day. If the student fails then what does that say about the instructor? If they fail for any reason it is the instructors fault for not preparing them properly.
I would insist on being allowed to watch or I would demand a refund for all tuition paid since he started(unless it was in writing that the exam would be private and you signed something agreeing to it).


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 7, 2012)

For the record I am frequently alone with students. Not one on one, but a group of students and myself as instructor, ranging from 6 to 13. That's the parent's choice, not mine.


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## Steve (Mar 7, 2012)

decepticon said:


> Although my daughter is now 13, I have very strong feelings about activities for younger kids. NO ONE, and I mean No One, ever took her away from me into any secret place where I could not be present. Not doctors, orthodontists, religious leaders, or martial arts instructors. I was highly indignant toward those few who tried to do so and left their facilities in short order. It ticks me off even now, to think that anyone else believes they have the right to do anything to my child without my consent. How dare anyone try to preempt the rights of parents! (Can you see the bristling of my bear fur?)


Exactly my own reaction.  Glad I'm not the only one.  I'll say though, even at 15, I'd be very suspicious of any attempt to bar me from my daughter in any way.


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## Steve (Mar 7, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> For the record I am frequently alone with students. Not one on one, but a group of students and myself as instructor, ranging from 6 to 13. That's the parent's choice, not mine.


Whether or not the parents choose to be there is a different matter (and another potential discussion about what schools expect from the parents in the way of participation and involvement).


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## andyjeffries (Mar 7, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> For the record I am frequently alone with students. Not one on one, but a group of students and myself as instructor, ranging from 6 to 13. That's the parent's choice, not mine.



The last part is the key part though.

I have some parents stay, some go.  I don't mind which.  However, they all have the option of staying and watching everything (classes and gradings).


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## miguksaram (Mar 7, 2012)

Just an update.  I spoke with Sensei Sharkey about this last night.  He said that if the parent was so adamant that they had to be there, even after we explained the reason why, then he would allow it.  However they would have to literally sit in one place from beginning to end (4-5 hours).  No phone calls, no walking around, no going in or out the door, no talking to any instructors or anyone else in the school, no bathroom break, unless the kids are on their own break, and even then no talking to the students.  They cannot say anything to their kid, they cannot step on the floor for any reason whatsoever.  If we felt the kid was being distracted like turning to look at mom or dad, then we would again explain to the parent that it was best not to be there.  If they still did not want to go then we would dismiss the participant from the test as they cannot maintain the focus needed.

I also misinformed the board here.  The minimum age for a Jr. BB is 12 not 10 years old.  We had one girl that was 11 and studied with us for 6 years and was literally coming in 5 days for 3 of those 6 years.




This is her doing traditional bo at age 12 at the WKA World Championships in Italy.    She is also one of the top players in her traveling soccer league, and on the honor roll at school.  She is just one of many of our success stories.  Yes, we are tough on them during their test, but the results are great martial artists and great kids.  

Steve,
To answer your question, yes I was present at both of my kids' belt test.  When my oldest was having his Jr. BB I was have my adult BB test in the school.  When my youngest was having his Jr. BB test I was on the testing board at that point.  Anyone wanting to see pics of the black belt test are more than welcome to visit my FB page.


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## decepticon (Mar 7, 2012)

miguksaram, perhaps if a parent was so adamant to observe, it might help to put them at a good distance away from the candidates, or at least from their candidate. And also to make all the rules very clear to both them and their child, especially that they were not to communicate nor look at each other for support. I think your Sensei's exception rules would be workable, even for someone like me. You might even consider writing the rules up and having the parent sign them so that there could be no room for argument if anyone had to be dismissed.

But most importantly, to be sure that the parent knows WHY you have these rules. If I felt that a rule had a valid reason, I would probably obey it even if I didn't like it much. However, if the reason seems dumb (or is unknown), I am less likely to comply. 

The issue is not that I want to protect my child from all pain (hence the vaccinations and orthodontia), it is that until she is fully able to stand up for herself, to the extent of questioning authority if she feels something is not right and has the ability to protect herself from harm, if it is in my power, I will be there to do it for her. As she matures, I find that I have to be the "mama bear" less and less. However, activities conducted behind blacked out windows automatically imply that there is some reason why they can not be conducted openly. And they are fraught with far too many opportunties for wrong doing for my tastes.

The school we attend does hard testing. Our instructor won't let anyone test who hasn't previously demonstrated that they know the material. However, his purpose with testing is to determine whether the student can perform the material under pressure, both physical and psychological. We are supposed to feel like quitting. So that we can demonstrate our growing ability to fight through that adrenalin recoil and keep going. I have to confess that during my last testing, I felt like shouting, "I am too old for this crap!", and sitting down right in the middle of the test. I snicker now at the thought, wondering what the instructor and other BB's would have done with me if I had given in to such thinking! But the bottom line is that I didn't, and I pressed on and did some of the best knife fighting I have ever done. 

Friends and family are welcome to sit in folding chairs along side the mat. I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intercede for their relative (however, young children don't do upper level testing at our school). There is always plenty of distraction - other students coming in for their classes, people milling about, phones ringing, etc. Just like there would most likely be in a real life self defense situation. The candidates are expected to master their own concentration. During breaks we are allowed to get a drink or go to the bathroom. There is little talking because the testing is just too hard. Candidates are usually winded and sometimes approaching exhaustion. Our heads are "in the game" and we are in no mood to visit with spectators. I can see how 8yo's would have definite problems with attention span in a similar situation.


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## miguksaram (Mar 7, 2012)

decepticon said:


> miguksaram, perhaps if a parent was so adamant to observe, it might help to put them at a good distance away from the candidates, or at least from their candidate. And also to make all the rules very clear to both them and their child, especially that they were not to communicate nor look at each other for support. I think your Sensei's exception rules would be workable, even for someone like me. You might even consider writing the rules up and having the parent sign them so that there could be no room for argument if anyone had to be dismissed.


Unfortunately we do not have a big enough space to place them at a good distance.  We have never had any problems with parents insisting on being there.  As I stated before, the parents are able to observe the belt tests up to the highest guep/kyu rank.  So they do have a good idea on what the kid is going to go through.  However, if the situation arises when we meet the parent who insists on being there, I am more than sure that Sensei Sharkey will make it quite clear what the expectations are.  He is not one to be subtle about such things.



> But most importantly, to be sure that the parent knows WHY you have these rules. If I felt that a rule had a valid reason, I would probably obey it even if I didn't like it much. However, if the reason seems dumb (or is unknown), I am less likely to comply.



Again, we make this all clear as to why do not invite them to watch in the first place.  If comes down to them staying, we have covered as well.  If they feel they cannot follow the rules of being there, then the student will not test for his/her Jr. BB.  They can just test for their adult bb when that time comes.  This does not mean that we will stop teaching them.  It just means they will not have a black piece of cloth to go around their waist for a little longer.



> The issue is not that I want to protect my child from all pain (hence the vaccinations and orthodontia), it is that until she is fully able to stand up for herself, to the extent of questioning authority if she feels something is not right and has the ability to protect herself from harm, if it is in my power, I will be there to do it for her. As she matures, I find that I have to be the "mama bear" less and less. However, activities conducted behind blacked out windows automatically imply that there is some reason why they can not be conducted openly. And they are fraught with far too many opportunties for wrong doing for my tastes.


I totally agree with that and for the record, the black window thing is the OP's situation.  Our school does not black anything out.  Parents can stand outside an look inside.  We just do not allow them in the building.



> The school we attend does hard testing. Our instructor won't let anyone test who hasn't previously demonstrated that they know the material. However, his purpose with testing is to determine whether the student can perform the material under pressure, both physical and psychological. We are supposed to feel like quitting. So that we can demonstrate our growing ability to fight through that adrenalin recoil and keep going. I have to confess that during my last testing, I felt like shouting, "I am too old for this crap!", and sitting down right in the middle of the test. I snicker now at the thought, wondering what the instructor and other BB's would have done with me if I had given in to such thinking! But the bottom line is that I didn't, and I pressed on and did some of the best knife fighting I have ever done.


Exactly!! All of our Jr. & adult BB candidates are hand selected to test.  If you were not asked to test, then you were not deemed ready.  The only thing that causes you to fail, is if you quit, if you have such a major brain fart and forget everything you have learned, or if you are not just putting forth the effort in the test that you should be.  



> Friends and family are welcome to sit in folding chairs along side the mat. I have never seen a problem with anyone trying to intercede for their relative (however, young children don't do upper level testing at our school). There is always plenty of distraction - other students coming in for their classes, people milling about, phones ringing, etc. Just like there would most likely be in a real life self defense situation. The candidates are expected to master their own concentration. During breaks we are allowed to get a drink or go to the bathroom. There is little talking because the testing is just too hard. Candidates are usually winded and sometimes approaching exhaustion. Our heads are "in the game" and we are in no mood to visit with spectators. I can see how 8yo's would have definite problems with attention span in a similar situation.


For any of our testings we do not have classes going on.  For the bb testing we have nothing going on at all that day.  The school is closed.  All cell phones are off, unless you need to have it on due to being on-call and then only on vibrate.  The school phone is set to go directly to v-mail.  All you hear are the screams of the victims...errrr I mean the kiai's of the students. ha.ha.ha.


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## miguksaram (Mar 7, 2012)

msmitht said:


> a belt test is supposed to test the student on the curricula that they have been taught in class. If they have been taught correctly then there should be no problem on exam day. If the student fails then what does that say about the instructor? If they fail for any reason it is the instructors fault for not preparing them properly.
> I would insist on being allowed to watch or I would demand a refund for all tuition paid since he started(unless it was in writing that the exam would be private and you signed something agreeing to it).


Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 7, 2012)

O





miguksaram said:


> Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?



If I may jump in, no I would fail a student who was just going through the motions and not putting effort in. That's about the only thing I'd fail a student for, not nerves. Hell I was so nervous I forgot two poomsae for my BB grading


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## ATC (Mar 7, 2012)

Yes the test should be stressful, what test is not.

However what that said, parents, relatives, friends, and so on should all be allowed to view the persons achieving moment. This is something that one, the parent is paying for and two, is of great importance to the tester, and those that support, and are involved in their lives, and should be witnessed by all that support the them. To test for black belt is a special moment and to deny anyone to have loved ones there to witness and support that special moment is cruel at minimum.

If you are testing for black belt and can't focus because someone is watching, then you should not be testing for a black belt, simple as that. Part of what you should be getting evaluated on is your focus, and if simply having a parent or someone there compromises that focus, then you simply are not ready for a black belt. Frankly you should be past the need to look at mommy or daddy for approval by an age, let alone a belt level, if not then you are clearly to immature to be testing for black belt.

That just my .02 anyways.


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## TKDinAK (Mar 7, 2012)

My instructor encourages people... parents, siblings, friends... etc... to come in and watch all the tests... GUP and BB.

He has a short wall separating the training and viewing areas. The GUP tests are a little more laid back than the BB, but there is an unspoken rule that spectators remain quiet and respectful during the tests. I have never seen a parent trying to instruct or interfere with their child's performance.

With the GUP tests, he has a number of BB's on hand to help out and be present for whatever is needed. All instructors and BB's are in dobaks. You can pass either high or low. The only way you won't pass is you've totally forgot the material (never seen this happen), or cannot get your break (seen this a couple of times with the youngsters).

For the BB tests, we have our Phoenix Group board on hand to administer the test. All board members are in suits. Much more formal and serious for these tests. You will not pass if you fail your verbal, perform patterns badly, or cannot execute your breaks. These tests are pass or fail. 

My instructor is very outgoing and amiable in normal classes... and while he doesn't turn to stone during the tests, he does put on a whole different attitude.

The kids who test for a Jr BB ranking, test right along with the adults and have to perform all the same requirements. The standards are adjusted slightly for their age/size... but for the most part, it's the same test.

The BB tests run about 4-6 hours, depending on the amount of students testing. I wouldn't say the test appears to be overly grueling (I'm still a green belt and have only watched), but it's a very serious setting, and students know that they had better know the material and perform well or they will not pass.

Concerning testing children behind closed doors...

I would hope that those who do this, provide that information to the parents well in advance... such as the moment they sign up. I would not appreciate getting this info well into my child's training.

I don't like the thought of having my young child being put through a strenuous test without me being present. If I did get this info in advance of signing up for training, I'd likely go somewhere else. That said, I can see how a trust could be built up between Parent-Student-Instructor where this would be a satisfactory situation for some people. I just don't think I would start the journey knowing my young child was to be out of my sight for a very strenuous and physical MA test.

I do agree that this could open a very serious issue concerning liability... that in itself would give me serious pause in joining a club which uses this practice.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 7, 2012)

Our testing certainly isn't anything like the OP describes.

We're firmly in the "you're tested every day" camp. Generally speaking, students are invited to "test" because they're already performing at the next level. Occasionally, it's the students request. In these cases, they may or may not be allowed to test, and those who do test under these circumstances generally do not perform as well as those who have been invited. They may well be able to perform to a passing level, but it's more likely to be "barely" passable.

Our "tests" are more of a demonstration than anything else. Families and friends are welcome in class and at tests, and although we do expect them to avoid disrupting the class activities, I can't imagine someone being failed because they looked at their parents. We don't do kiddie black belts, but there are plenty of kids amoung the geup ranks.

Our last test there were 7 candidates, testing for anything from 9th geup to 2nd. The examiners are Dan holders. It took about an hour, with the candidates coming up 2 or 3 at a time. Tests include forms, sparring and breaking.

At our last black belt exam, there were two candidates, performing at the same time. The exam included performing 10 forms, free sparring against single and multiple opponents, knowledge exam and multiple station breaking (i.e., I did a 4-station break with a knee strike, rear elbow, side kick and head break, and a power break with 5 16x8x2" concrete pavers). It took about 90 minutes.

I don't personally see any sense in the 4 day long tests, and certainly not in the "Secret Conclave" type of tests.

Incidentially, nobody fails at our tests. If they're unable (for whatever reason) to perform any section at a passable level, their promotion is considered "pending", they are given additional training or assistance, and allowed to repeat that section. By the time students test, there's rarely any doubt that they know the material (I can only think of two cases in which I was not sure of their ability to perform the appropriate material before the test), but there have been several who were pending due to missed breaks. Generally younger students, but one of our adult students had a promotion delayed. Breaking wasn't something this student practiced (although we do have rebreakable boards available for anyone who wants to practice) and nervousness led to failure. Next class, without as much stress, the breaks were done easily.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 7, 2012)

decepticon said:


> Although my daughter is now 13, I have very strong feelings about activities for younger kids. NO ONE, and I mean No One, ever took her away from me into any secret place where I could not be present. Not doctors, orthodontists, religious leaders, or martial arts instructors. I was highly indignant toward those few who tried to do so and left their facilities in short order. It ticks me off even now, to think that anyone else believes they have the right to do anything to my child without my consent. How dare anyone try to preempt the rights of parents! (Can you see the bristling of my bear fur?)





Steve said:


> Exactly my own reaction.  Glad I'm not the only one.  I'll say though, even at 15, I'd be very suspicious of any attempt to bar me from my daughter in any way.



Yup, that is where I'm at too. I took my daughter out of a YMCA swimming program and got my money back because thet changed the rules and would not allow parents in the pool area during class.


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## TKDinAK (Mar 7, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Incidentially, nobody fails at our tests. If they're unable (for whatever reason) to perform any section at a passable level, their promotion is considered "pending", they are given additional training or assistance, and allowed to repeat that section. By the time students test, there's rarely any doubt that they know the material (I can only think of two cases in which I was not sure of their ability to perform the appropriate material before the test), but there have been several who were pending due to missed breaks. Generally younger students, but one of our adult students had a promotion delayed. Breaking wasn't something this student practiced (although we do have rebreakable boards available for anyone who wants to practice) and nervousness led to failure. Next class, without as much stress, the breaks were done easily.



My school holds two BB tests per year... six months apart.

We test our 1st GUP (Red Belt/Black Stripe) along with the black belts. There are normally a couple of 1st GUP testers who fail because the break is fairly difficult... five board jump side kick. If they fail, they can test again the following month during the next GUP test. They can keep testing at the monthly GUP tests until they get their break... then they must wait until the next BB test to try and qualify for their 1st DAN.

If a BB tester fails, at any DAN test, they must wait until the next BB test in six months. Plenty of time to train and correct.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> For kiddie black belts?  The tests should be appropriately scaled; reasonably challenging but not nearly the same as an adult test.  An 8 or 9 year old simply can't do the same things as an adult, in many ways.  As someone else already said -- a test that challenges an 8 year old would probably be pretty easy for an adult!



Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.


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## ATC (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.


This I agree with. I find it funny that adult think they can do what the kids do. In everyone of my classes I can have the kids do so much more, but the adult tend to always handle less.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

mastercole said:


> To me, some people make way to much out of a Dan or Poom test.  1st Dan or Poom is a low level practitioner, 1 step above a 1st geup, like 1st geup was 1 step above 2nd geup.



I think some people feel that if children are receiving black belts, then somehow their own black belt is diminished, that all the hard work that they feel they put it was for nothing, if kids can wear the same rank as they. 




mastercole said:


> All Dan and Poom holders are born out of these situations, for better or worse.
> 
> Perfect situation = Excellent instructor + Excellent student
> 
> ...



In my opinion, one of the ways of telling whether someone has the potential to become an excellent instructor is how open they are to understanding the culture of the martial art that they are studying and teaching. Do they take the time to understand the language, the customs, the culture? Do they eat the food of the country, and actually enjoy it? Can they use chopsticks? Have they visited the country? Do they hold some sort of bitter resentment towards koreans/okinawans/japanese? If an instructor is not open to the culture, then most likely they will end up substituting their own culture, which changes things, sometimes to the point where the art is no longer recognizable.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ATC said:


> This I agree with. I find it funny that adult think they can do what the kids do. In everyone of my classes I can have the kids do so much more, but the adult tend to always handle less.



So why not give kids black belts.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.


I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult.  I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team,  all our coaches can.  I think it depends on the age of the child.  15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult.  I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team,  all our coaches can.  I think it depends on the age of the child.  15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.



How do your jump kicks and flexibility compare to those 8 year olds?


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## ballen0351 (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> How do your jump kicks and flexibility compare to those 8 year olds?



So you only judge on Flexability? Kids are more flexable because they dont have the muscle tone yet thats why babies can suck on their toes that may be the ONLY area kids are better then adults but You said kids are better in MOST areas. There is no way an 8 year old kid has better stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control, then a normal healthy non-obese adult.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> So you only judge on Flexability? Kids are more flexable because they dont have the muscle tone yet thats why babies can suck on their toes that may be the ONLY area kids are better then adults but You said kids are better in MOST areas. There is no way an 8 year old kid has better stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control, then a normal healthy non-obese adult.



That was just a start. I noticed you didn't make any comments on jump kicks. And you mentioned you do karate. I don't know how that compares to taekwondo competition training, which is where the differences become readily apparent.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> There's a place, at least in Western society today, for a coming of age right or challenge, and one place (not the only one!) to find that can be a martial arts program.  But that doesn't mean that the test has to be some sort of ultimate torture test/crucible combination of BUD/S and fraternity hazing; it just has to be an experience that's out of the norm, and that pushes you in a way you haven't been pushed before.



Taekwondo has that, we call them "tournaments". And they get harder as you advance in rank, because the people that you are competing against are also advancing. And when you reach the elite level, then people are training real hard for those, much harder than the average student trains for a belt test, including dan level tests. The hardest tournament in the US used to be team trials, where you fight the top five fighters in your weight division in a round robin format. Those kinds of tests let you know exactly where you stand on the totem pole, for the teacher as well as the student.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult.  I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team,  all our coaches can.  I think it depends on the age of the child.  15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.


Exactly. I coach 3 different junior sports and until at least 16 or 17 years of age kids are way behind in co ordination or fitness or anything else for that matter. As for jumping kicks, I won the jump front kick comp at my club and Im 38. Kids were miles behind the adults.


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## ATC (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> So why not give kids black belts.


You never heard me say that kids should not have a black belt.


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## Gorilla (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult.  I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team,  all our coaches can.  I think it depends on the age of the child.  15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.



Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults.  Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old.  They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie.  My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7.  In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.

Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas.  There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.


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## ATC (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> I disagree there is no way an 8 year old can keep up with a normal healthy late 20 thru mid 40's adult.  I coach my son in football 6 thru 8 year olds and im no gym freak or fitness god in fact other then my Karate classes 3 to 4 times a week I dont exercise at all anymore but I can out hustle and out work every kid on that team,  all our coaches can.  I think it depends on the age of the child.  15 -17 years olds then yes there are some that can out work me and alot of adults but in the age this thread was talking about if you cant out work an 8 year old you may need to seek medical help.


Just like anything, it depends on the 8 year old and the adult. Yes there are adults that can out work 8 year olds, just as there are 8 year olds that can out work adults. Many of todays kids and adults are lazy. But on average most kids have far more stamina then adults. Now those adults that workout are above the curve and those kids that workout are above the curve. Most people in the dojang don't push (kids or adults).

My kids at 8 years old were doing reps of 100 for 5 sets of situps as a cool down to their workout. Their workouts on the weekends were 4 to 6 hours long. Their daily workouts were 2 hours long. Both are national champs multiple times over. Both are US. Open champs. My son just won the US Open for his age group. Two weeks before the US Open my son competed as a tune up and fought and beat the current US Open 14-17 Silver (2nd place) medalist, my son is 12.

It all depends on the kid. I will agree that 8 years old on average should never keep up with young adults in their prime (20's) but at 30+ it starts to get pretty hard for that adult to keep his stamina let alone recover from a hard workout. Kids bounce back and are ready for more pretty much as soon as the training stops.

Adults after a good workout go rest. Kids after a good workout go play.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> That was just a start. I noticed you didn't make any comments on jump kicks. And you mentioned you do karate. I don't know how that compares to taekwondo competition training, which is where the differences become readily apparent.



I noticed you didnt comment on stamina, strength, hand and eye coordination, mental capasity, balance, body control,

I dont do jump kicks in my style so I cant comment on them.  I can try one real quick ill need to google it to see what they look like but I can jump and I can kick so I assume I can do both together.

Im not saying kids cant to it and do it well but your comment that they are better in MOST areas I disagree with.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults. Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old. They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie. My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7. In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.
> 
> Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas. There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.


Thats great we are not talking about the exceptions here we are talking normal kids and normal adults there are exceptions to EVERY rule as your kids appear to be.  The post said kids were better then adults in most areas and in the norm thats false.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Both my kids and ATC's kids regularly work out with adults.  Not just adults but elite athletes and have been doing since 8 years old.  They recently worked out with 4 world ranked fighters and three Olympians not at a seminar but regular 2 hour work outs (2 weeks) for the US OPEN. A adult who works out 2 or 3 times a week would not be able to keep up with Kym or Charlie.  My kids work out 4 hour per day 6 days a week sometimes 7.  In the summer is is six hours per day in the summer.
> 
> Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas.  There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.


There are always going to be 'elite' kids, you just have to look at the footage of tiger woods as a small boy playing golf. they are, however, the exception, not the rule. Go to a random tkd/karate/kung fu club and watch the kids train compared to adults and they are miles behind.


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## jks9199 (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Actually, I think it is the other way around for most areas except perhaps breaking. Kids are more flexible, their natural stamina and wind is better, etc. At least how it is dividing up in taekwondo classes, where kids are kids and adults are parents of kids. With adults, once past 35 or so, the ability level generally goes down, while injuries, etc. tend to go up.



If the test were mere physicality -- yep, in many ways a child is more capable than an adult.  I just spent the afternoon chasing a 3 year old; believe me, I know that!  But an 8 year old doesn't have an adult level of concentration, a grown man's strength or coordination, and so on.

A couple of general further notes while I'm writing.  As I've said -- there are different types of tests, that reflect both different meanings of black belt, and different philosophies of the schools or organizations.  Some tests are true trials; some are mere recognition & acknowledgement.  Some view the first level of black belt as a major accomplishment; some just say it means you're finally ready to start learning... and in some, it just means you've hung around and people kind of like you.  Sometimes it's a teaching credential; sometimes it's not.  That all shapes the testing process -- as well as who can be a black belt.

My concern in the original post is simple: what seems to be an absolute black out, even to the parents of young children, about the test.  They refuse to let the parents watch.  They refuse to tell the parents what the test involves, other than that it is so stressful that they've made adults cry and quit.  They are apparently pretty uncommunicative about the whole thing.  That's a concern.  You can have closed, private testing for adults, and it doesn't really bother me.  That's their business, and the adults can choose to do it or not.  But 8 year old kids?  That secrecy worries me.  May be nothing wrong... but I find it worrisome.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Thats great we are not talking about the exceptions here we are talking normal kids and normal adults there are exceptions to EVERY rule as your kids appear to be.  The post said kids were better then adults in most areas and in the norm thats false.



Taking average kids and average adults in a dojang of similar rank and experience, I think that kids fare better than adults in most areas, in taekwondo, which is the area this discussion is in. Perhaps it is different in karate, I don't know.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> If the test were mere physicality -- yep, in many ways a child is more capable than an adult.  I just spent the afternoon chasing a 3 year old; believe me, I know that!  But an 8 year old doesn't have an adult level of concentration, a grown man's strength or coordination, and so on.



I would disagree with you on the coordination and level of concentration. If the students are not concentrating or not coordinated, then it is the teacher's job to get them to concentrate or be coordinated. Like Mr. Miyagi said, we don't blame the student, we blame the instructor. Instructors take all the blame; students take all the credit. Strength is a different matter. Of course a child won't have a "grown man's strength", but then neither will a lot of females or older adults. I frankly think that is a red herring, the strength issue. 




jks9199 said:


> My concern in the original post is simple: what seems to be an absolute black out, even to the parents of young children, about the test.  They refuse to let the parents watch.  They refuse to tell the parents what the test involves, other than that it is so stressful that they've made adults cry and quit.  They are apparently pretty uncommunicative about the whole thing.  That's a concern.  You can have closed, private testing for adults, and it doesn't really bother me.  That's their business, and the adults can choose to do it or not.  But 8 year old kids?  That secrecy worries me.  May be nothing wrong... but I find it worrisome.



On that issue, I personally would allow parents to watch and in fact welcome them to do so, unless they become disruptive, at which point they are no longer welcome. Personally, I enjoy hearing constructive feedback from parents, who I consider an essential part of the process. In order to succeed, a student needs parental support. Without that, people rarely go anywhere, including the martial arts. Or should I say, having parental support makes everything that much easier. So of course they can watch.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ATC said:


> You never heard me say that kids should not have a black belt.




I was addressing that to the group, not you specifically. I know you are not against child earning black belts. Your kids have black belts.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Btw the Morrocan National team train with my kids every time they are in Las Vegas.  There Karate instructor who is an elite athlete has a hard time keeping up with them in a TKD work out.



Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.



Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be. I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school. 
Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.


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## puunui (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be.



Maybe you don't treat kids the same as adults.... As for prime of one's life, I listen to a lot of people, and I get the impression that the prime of their life was when they were kids. 




ballen0351 said:


> I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school.



it has nothing to do with exceptions. In my opinion, students rise to the level of their teacher's expectations. Children take to that concept without the sort of mental blocks and hangups that adults often carry around with them. 




ballen0351 said:


> Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.



No one said you had to agree with me.


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## msmitht (Mar 7, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Would you pass the student how was just lazily going through the motions in his test, even though, up to that point he has never been that way?


I don't know. I've never been put in that situation. I always make sure that they are ready, both physically and mentally. If they were lazy and not trying I would dismiss them after 2 warnings and continue the exam 4 months later.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 7, 2012)

ballen0351 said:


> Oh silly me I didnt realize that Human Physiology was suspended when it came to Modern Taekwondo training methods. Theres a reason why kids are not treated as adults because physically, emotionally, bio-mechanically, maturity they are different they are less advanced then a normal adult human in the prime of his life its why we call it the Prime of your life your the best you have every been and ever will be. I know there are exceptions to every rule like your kids. But if you think you can go into any Taekwondo school and 8 year old will be just as good as a normal healthy 32 year old I say your wrong. I have years of coaching kids in Football, Basketball, Base Ball, and soccer in every age group from 4 years old and up to base my opinion and you cant tell me that the same limits on basic human functions change just because the same kid walks off the field and into a Taekwondo school.
> Like I said there are always going to be some kids that are better just like there will be some adults that are worse but taking the Norms from both I dont agree with you.


You are right. In fact you are so right I cant even see how this can be debated. I was just talking to a friend who is a primary school teacher and tkd student, and he echoed your sentiments exactly. Actually he gave this analogy- set up 6 or 7 cones on a sports field about 2 metres apart. Get a 25 year old and a 7 year old who have both never played soccer or kicked a soccer ball in their life. Demonstrate to both how to dribble the soccer ball through the cones in a snake pattern. Then give each a soccer ball and ask them to try it. You will instantly see the difference between an adult and a child. I can relate to that one as I coached junior soccer and at the end of each session we would have the parents play the kids, most of the parents had never played soccer, most of the kids were into their third or fourth season, the parents win even without any effort at all every time, and soccer requires no physical strength.


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## Gorilla (Mar 8, 2012)

Double post sorry


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## Gorilla (Mar 8, 2012)

puunui said:


> Non-taekwondo practitioners or even taekwondo practitioners who do not train using the modern training methods have a hard time understanding what those modern training methods entail.



Let me clarify my kids karate imstructor who is an elite athlete  also trains with my kids in Tkd has a hard rime keeping up with the pace of a Tkd work out it is much more aerobic work out than Karate.  Our Shotokan coach/trainer is a very big believer in cross training and collaborates with Arlene

The Morrocans are at the cutting edge of TKD Training.  Charlie worked with Issam Chernoubi allot it was very enlightening experience.  We have been very lucky to work with the number 1 welter weight in the world.


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## Archtkd (Mar 8, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Let me clarify my kids karate imstructor who is an elite athlete  also trains with my kids in Tkd has a hard rime keeping up with the pace of a Tkd work out it is much more aerobic work out than Karate.  Our Shotokan coach/trainer is a very big believer in cross training and collaborates with Arlene
> 
> The Morrocans are at the cutting edge of TKD Training.  Charlie worked with Issam Chernoubi allot it was very enlightening experience.  We have been very lucky to work with the number 1 welter weight in the world.


Now I am beginning to understand why those Morroccans are getting so good. I've been puzzling about this with a few folks I know on the Kenya national team.


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## miguksaram (Mar 8, 2012)

msmitht said:


> I don't know. I've never been put in that situation. I always make sure that they are ready, both physically and mentally. If they were lazy and not trying I would dismiss them after 2 warnings and continue the exam 4 months later.


Ok. Do you look at dismissing them as the same thing as failing them?


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## hoshindo (Mar 8, 2012)

Lets go back to the OP.......
<< He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review  board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the  windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a  lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After  the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show.  That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must  attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal  training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick  for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer  get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show. >>

This review board... now is this the BB exam and then the child still has to attend so many classes before the he gets the belt.....or.....what happens on June 1st. is this the exam? can parents watch this event?... is that the real BB exam?  

Is this sat. the BB exam and they mandate these classes while they send off for a cert.?
Just questions that look like that has not been asked.

Jim


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## cay22 (Mar 8, 2012)

hoshindo said:


> Lets go back to the OP.......
> << He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review  board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the  windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a  lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After  the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show.  That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must  attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal  training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick  for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer  get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show. >>
> 
> This review board... now is this the BB exam and then the child still has to attend so many classes before the he gets the belt.....or.....what happens on June 1st. is this the exam? can parents watch this event?... is that the real BB exam?
> ...



The way they run it is on March 10th they hold the Review Board, this is the main "test". Then they have what they call a Black Belt Show on June 1st. The Show is for parents/friends to attend, it is usually held at the local high school auditorium. They perform forms, breaks, takedowns, and "skits" or mini plays meant to show real life applications of taekwondo. It usually lasts 2 hrs and they get their belts at the end of that. The mandatory classes between review board and the show are to practice and rehearse for the show. Then there is a big party after the show.


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## Gorilla (Mar 8, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Now I am beginning to understand why those Morroccans are getting so good. I've been puzzling about this with a few folks I know on the Kenya national team.



You seem to be questioning my truthfulness.  I in no way suggested that my kids trained the Morrocans.  My kids trained with the Morrocans  and Issam really worked with my son to help him improve.  Him and Charlie really hit it off.

My daughter Kym is and elite athlete and is a worl ranked fin weight.  She has moved up to fly weight and has fought Sanaa Atabrour.  Matter of fact it was a close fight at the Pan Am Open.

Also they work with John Kenyanjoui not sure of the spelling he is a Kenyan.  I believe John did pretty well in Kenya in the 2004-2007 range.


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## msmitht (Mar 9, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> Ok. Do you look at dismissing them as the same thing as failing them?



It depends on how you view it. If I dismiss them in the first half of the exam them it is an "incomplete exam". If I were to let them finish then it would have to be a fail.


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## Archtkd (Mar 9, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> You seem to be questioning my truthfulness.  I in no way suggested that my kids trained the Morrocans.  My kids trained with the Morrocans  and Issam really worked with my son to help him improve.  Him and Charlie really hit it off.
> 
> My daughter Kym is and elite athlete and is a worl ranked fin weight.  She has moved up to fly weight and has fought Sanaa Atabrour.  Matter of fact it was a close fight at the Pan Am Open.
> 
> Also they work with John Kenyanjoui not sure of the spelling he is a Kenyan.  I believe John did pretty well in Kenya in the 2004-2007 range.



Oh no. I was in no way questioning your truthfulness. I was saying that the Morrocans are getting good because they are doing advanced training in the U.S,  something many African teams never get a chance to do. Sorry about the misundestanding.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 9, 2012)

Ultimately the question "should getting a black belt be this stressful" is in and of itself meaningless. There is no standard for "black belt." Not from style to style, or school to school, or even sometimes student to student. It depends on what your son is getting a "black belt" in. Is it self defense? Olympic athletics? Feeling good about yourself? Military combat? Counting to a hundred in Korean? Killing a man with your bare hands? Happy slappy fun times? The answer to the question is completely different according to what the "black belt" represents in this context.

My test was extremely hard. I wouldn't say "stressful" exactly, because I trained like a demon to prepare for it. Hours every day, techniques, PT, fighting, weapons. It was six hours long and we were tested way past the point of exhaustion. I had to fight multiple opponents, perform hundreds of techniques and dozens of sets and forms, as well as demonstrate my ability to teach the material. I had to fight a series of senior black belt practitioners without a break. I had to defend myself against armed attackers, and pass a list of physical challenges to test my conditioning. It went on and on and on. It was one of the most physically, mentally, and emotionally challenging things I've ever endured.

We didn't allow witnesses for the test, and I don't now. But we also didn't give black belts to children, and I don't now. I wouldn't subject a child to that level of intensity. It was serious business, for serious adults. I'm not saying it's wrong for your school to test your eight year old son for a "black belt." But it won't be the same black belt. It'll mean something different, both objectively and subjectively. Which is why I say the question is meaningless. I knew of another school where the black belt test was just a beating. You fought two men until you couldn't anymore. Then they held you up while two more men beat you until the Master was satisfied. Then you got your belt. I think that's brutality and not indicative of skill development so I don't do it that way. But some clearly do. And I imagine it's "stressful" to know you're facing that.

If you don't like the school you're at or the way they do things then leave. The kid is eight. Chances are none of this will mean anything to him by the time he figures out what girls are. If you want him to face the challenge, then face it. And tell him that sometimes we fail at things because we aren't strong enough or good enough to succeed at them yet. That's life. And it's probably a more valuable lesson than whatever martial arts techniques he's practicing in his classes.


-Rob


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## Gorilla (Mar 10, 2012)

Arch sorry sometimes it is hard to read intent.  My misunderstanding.


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## Archtkd (Mar 10, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Arch sorry sometimes it is hard to read intent.  My misunderstanding.



Gorilla: no problem. I have lots of respect for you and always learn from your good posts. Next time you see John Kinyanjui ask him whether he trained with Master Ernest Olayo or Grandmaster Mogg Yoon. If he did we must have trained in the same dojang in Nairobi. It was the old Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang in Uniafric House. GM Yoon was the Kwan Jang, and Master Olayo the chief instructor. There is a Lawrence Kinyanjui I know, who's in Wisconsin, and who also trained at the KTA main dojang. I wonder if they are related.


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## Gorilla (Mar 10, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Gorilla: no problem. I have lots of respect for you and always learn from your good posts. Next time you see John Kinyanjui ask him whether he trained with Master Ernest Olayo or Grandmaster Mogg Yoon. If he did we must have trained in the same dojang in Nairobi. It was the old Kenya Taekwondo Association main dojang in Uniafric House. GM Yoon was the Kwan Jang, and Master Olayo the chief instructor. There is a Lawrence Kinyanjui I know, who's in Wisconsin, and who also trained at the KTA main dojang. I wonder if they are related.




I will talk with John tomorrow.  I will be on business for the week and unable to post. I will let you know on Saturday.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 12, 2012)

mastercole said:


> If a person is performing their best, I can tell in a minute, most likely seconds if they are skilled or not. I don't need to see them swim the Great Lakes, kill a goat, swallow a flaming sword, eat broken glass, walk on hot coals, pierce their forearms with crochet needles, stay awake for a week, eat a bean a day for a month, etc to know that.


One of my TKD sabeoms told me that could tell how good you were just by looking at your back stance. In kendo, the quality of the shomen uchi (frontal head strike) will tell the skill of the practitioner. There are other elements that instructors with to test, frequently non-physical elements, but much more than an hour or too is overkill.

At the same time, a test where the opening and closing ceremonies are longer than the test itself would be off putting to most, particularly if there is a fee attached. None of my kendo tests were longer than two hours.

*Regarding the OP*, I have no problem with a school putting black belts on eight year olds, provided it is consistent with organizational policy (if any), but if a school owner _*is*_ putting black belts on eight year old children, then he or she should drop the hard core/ordeal facade.

As for not letting the folks watch, I am with Twin Fist and Steve all the way: it is foolish and shows a serious lack of common sense on the part of those setting the policy. Too many sex/abuse scandals involving trusted organizations and kids, not to mention the potential for injuries or medical issues for me to give a school owner a free pass on that.  

Anyone remember those well toned and conditioned kids that were on the news for dying on the football or soccor field due to some unexplainable medical phenomenon?  Do you _*really*_ want mom and dad to be able to say, in court, that you barred them, not only from entry, but from even watching through a one way glass?  And now their baby is dead.  And your school is being carved up and served to the grieved parents and their lawyers.  

Sorry, but as far as the public is concerned, MA class falls under the heading of sports, and parents watching their kids' games and practices is the norm.  Imagine a high school telling mom and dad to stay home from a play off game; the school would be in court faster than a ZR1 runs the quarter mile and the person who issued the statement would be thrown under the bus for damage control. 

We talk about being aware of the the laws that govern self defense and about situational awareness. Any school owner who would set such a policy shows a lack of situational awareness and a serious lack of understanding of how the law could ruin them if alegations were ever made, say by a disgruntled student or parent. I was an assistant teacher at a Catholic church school of religion. One of the policies that the school of religion had in place was that no adult could be alone with a child if at all avoidable, and the door was to be left open at all times. I'm pretty sure that public schools have similar policies in place.

Pretty much every organization that works with children has similar policies in place to *protect themselves *from legal problems and from any appearance of impropriety. If the school staff is willing to open themselves up to potential problems in an age where sex abuse scandals are common and organizations involved are forced to pay out in the millions, then they obviously have no concept of self defense and are seriously lacking in common sense, and are, in my opinion, unqualified to be running an MA school, particularly one that has childrens classes.


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## terryl965 (Mar 13, 2012)

All I can say is this WOW just WOW...... people can get really upset over BS line over BS lines.


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## miguksaram (Mar 13, 2012)

If everyone is going to get worked up on some kid and his black belt...please read this first http://www.theonion.com/articles/karate-lessons-give-child-selfconfidence-to-quit-k,2297/


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 13, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> If everyone is going to get worked up on some kid and his black belt...please read this first http://www.theonion.com/articles/karate-lessons-give-child-selfconfidence-to-quit-k,2297/


I read through here and I haven't seen anyone really getting worked up over a kid getting a belt. 

I have seen some fairly strong opinions on the lack of common sense in testing policy that is closed door and prohibits parental observation/attendance due to the serious potential for abuse and legal troubles in such a setting, however. 

Nothing in the article you linked touched on that, though.


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## miguksaram (Mar 13, 2012)

Check out the source of the article and you will understand that it was done in humor.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 14, 2012)

cay22 said:


> Okay I want to start with a disclaimer, I do not want this to turn into a is he too young discussion. I have read the posts and I know how some of you feel about kids as BBs. In his school they do allow kids as young as 7-8 to test for BB so that is just the way it is there (Although I am beginning to think they should raise the age).


Sorry, but that debate must permeate each and every thread in the TKD section, no matter how unrelated. 



cay22 said:


> That being said here is what I need input on. My son has been taking TKD for 3.5 yrs and he is 8. He is slated to go up for review board this Sat the 10th. The review board at his school starts at 9:30am on a Sat and they black out the windows and no one is allowed in even parents. The students bring a lunch and it lasts 5-8 hrs depending on the number of students. After the review board (if they pass) they get ready for the Black Belt Show. That will be June 1st. From March 10th to June 1st the students must attend 2-3 mandatory candidate workouts a week along with their normal training. They are allowed only 1 excused absence and if they are sick for 2 weeks they are no longer in the show meaning they can no longer get their Black Belt. They must wait until next years show.


I think that a five to eight hour test is a bit much.  If you can't figure out if the kid is ready after at least a year or two of teaching them and an hour to test them, then you'll never figure it out.  What goes on for five to eight hours? 



cay22 said:


> Here is my issue, my son is an emotional kid (he gets it from me) if he gets frustrated he cries. He does not quit and he will keep going through the tears but that is just his personality. Way back in Nov. before the Review Board stuff started I approached the owners of the school and asked them straight up if my son was ready to go up for BB. I made it clear that I was fine with him waiting another year (they only do it once a year). They said he was ready and they would make sure he was ready and he would do fine. Now I have no idea what goes on at Review Board because it is a big secret and no one is allowed to talk about it so I was relying on their knowledge of what goes on to determine if my son was ready. Well we are now less than a week from Review Board and my son has had private lessons, done all the prep work, attended 22 classes in Feb. alone just to get ready and the owner comes to him and tells him he may not allow him to go up for Review Board. I spoke with the owner last night and he said he is physically and mentally ready just not emotionally ready. He says he will probably cry and quit during review board and if he quits he is done. Is it common to be so hard on the kids that they quit during review board? He says he has even had an adult quit! It sounds more like a college hazing to me? Is this the norm for a BB test? If my son does not go up he will be crushed and humiliated. I feel that he is the same kid he was in Nov. and if they thought he was ready then he should be ready now. If they would have said then he was not ready I was fine with that but telling a child 4 days before review board after they have worked their rear off to get ready is just not right. I have gotten out of some of the parents whose kids went up at a young age that their kids said it was the worst day of their lives and came home crying. Is this really what getting your black belt is supposed to be about? He has worked so hard I hate to just pull him out and be done. This is the one thing we have found so far that he really enjoys.


When kids start crying due to frustration, it puts the adults into the position of having to interpret the crying.  Since he isn't their kid, you really can't expect them to just pass it off as an emotional response to frustration.  They may also feel (and arguably correctly) that if you cry at a first dan test because you're frustrated, then you probably aren't ready for the grade, at least as they define it.

On the other hand, if you run an eight year old for five to eight hours straight, you're lucky if he doesn't pass out.  Kids that age get tired in the middle of the day and tired little kids tend to act out in ways that adults do not, such as crying over being frustrated.  

Of course, they probably aren't running them for five to eight hours straight, but since they won't tell you what goes on, and since you can't watch, it could anything.



cay22 said:


> I guess my question is, is this the norm and should the BB test be so awful that it is the worst day of a kids life? If so we may just have to be done with the arts. Just FYI- I also do TKD but started after my son so he is up for BB before me.
> 
> Thanks for any input you may have.
> -Kate


The test should be a challenge to the testor.  It should challenge their abilities and demonstrate their proficiency.  I suspect that the lengthy test is meant to test the testor's mettle and composure as much as it is meant to test their proficiency, though I feel that that can be done in two hours or less.  

If they make it into some kind of ordeal and act like they're all 'old school/hard core/whatever,' then they're full of it.  Hard core schools don't put black belts on eight year olds, and any school that does isn't hard core.  

Which is fine; hard core doesn't equate to better.  But it is indicative of adult and older teen males who like a 'tough' workout, not to a chidrens program.


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sorry, but that debate must permeate each and every thread in the TKD section, no matter how unrelated.



That and the lack of face punching in taekwondo competition, as well as the ineffectiveness of taekwondo in self defense.


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