# Favorite Sources for Non-Martial Topics?



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

For those who have done the research, what are your favorite sources for the non-fighting topics related to self-defense? I'm thinking of things like de-escalation, recognizing threats, target hardening, victim selection, etc. I'm interested in both the technical sources (I'm a psychology nerd, so I'll even read a journal article of a related study) and the consumer-digestible content. Books, videos, articles, and even paid content/courses.

For those with experience in security/LE/bouncing, which sources line up with what you found to work?

For those who teach these things (to MA students, seminars, or to professionals), what seems to click?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 4, 2017)

I am excited about this thread. It has the potential to be really good. But I need to curb my enthusiasm because I know the majority of martial artists get everything they know by just showing up for class.....but I'm still excited and looking forward to a lot of reading.


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## Runs With Fire (Nov 4, 2017)

I do two main things: I listen, and I look for books.  A great many people with a lifetime of experience will ,at least on occasion, open their experience and start telling a story.  That's how I've learned the most on theory.  Whether a group of lounging masters at a conference, a visiting instructor over lunch,  or a parent waiting for class to finish.  I like to read books that cover real experiences of people who survived bad situations, regardless of what it was.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2017)

Cash in transit. Or cash handling.
Lonely planet guide and travel tips.
Sales
Pick up techniques.

How To Deal With An Aggressive AMOG - 7 Killer AMOG Tactics


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## ShortBridge (Nov 4, 2017)

Great topic. I may need to wait (a few days) to be back at a keyboard to fully participate fully, but -

I find Cooper's Color System and I.M.O.P. to be useful and essential.

Favorite books on the subject (in no particular order) include:

Strong on Defense
Meditations on Violence
The Little Black Book of Violence
The Gift of Fear
Verbal Judo
Scaling Force


There are others and none of these are perfect. I think it is a hard genre to write well. Many are overlapping and some are better for certain types of people than others.

I commonly pan YouTube here as a source of martial arts truth, but videos of crimes and assaults, while not fun to watch can be very educational for someone trying to train for surviving or avoiding assault


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I am excited about this thread. It has the potential to be really good. But I need to curb my enthusiasm because I know the majority of martial artists get everything they know by just showing up for class.....but I'm still excited and looking forward to a lot of reading.


I am excited about it, too. Some folks have dropped sources from time to time in various threads, and I thought it about time we gathered some of that into one place, and perhaps with some debate on the merits of some of the sources.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Cash in transit. Or cash handling.
> Lonely planet guide and travel tips.
> Sales
> Pick up techniques.
> ...


I assume those first 4 are topics, rather than sources?


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## ShortBridge (Nov 4, 2017)

This topic is precisely why I get aggrevated when people post about "reality" when they mean sparring. (Please don't respond and turn this into a sparring thread. We have plenty of other real estate for that)

This is an essential topic and area of exploration for anyone teaching or interested in self defense/personal safety. It can be trained, but it's different than training.


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## ShortBridge (Nov 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I assume those first 4 are topics, rather than sources?



Which first four?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Which first four?


I was replying to Drop Bear.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 4, 2017)

if i was to teach a course on human combative behavior these would be my recommended reading.
books:

Rory Miller has quite a few books and you really cant go wrong reading them (most notable "M_editations on Violence")_ or taking a seminar with him, he is a great guy.  in my opinion however his experience is in Law enforcement and correctional facilities so a discerning eye can spot a leaning bias in this direction and sometimes this may not translate well into the civilian world. i do think he realizes this but the reader should be aware of making broad assumptions based on his books.

Gavin De Becker has a hand full of books as well (most notable _"The gift of fear") 
_
for threat recognition i would recommend "_Left of Bang"  _by Patrick Van Horne. its a military book for the recognition and detection of terrorist activity but the concepts can also apply to other things.

_"Strong on Defense"  _ by Stanford Strong , i read it back in 1997 when it was released so i cant really remember much about it so i cant say if it is good or bad but if people are still recommending it then it must still be relevant.

Geoff Thompson has some books as well as material on Youtube.   highly recommended.

in the same vain as Thompson is  Lee Morrison while he has some books he also has content on Youtube. i recommend his Youtube stuff
Urban Combatives - The best in Combatives on the net

LT. COL Dave Grossman has two must read books  _ "On Killing"  _and  _"On Combat"  _ these are must read books for understanding the effects of adrenaline and fear while engaged in combat and the psychology of combat.
"_Warrior Mindset"  _is a book by  Michael J. Asken, PH.D.  the books had the help of Dave Grossman and Loren W. Christensen.  so all three of these authors are good.

When it comes to womens self defense, and rape,,,, now i have to make a note here that most cases of rape happen by someone the victim knows (i have to mention this because i dont want posters to go into the usual diatribe) that being said these books are a valuable source of information when it comes to serial rapists and their behavior.

_"Men Who Rape"_ by A.Nicholas Groth  Groth was the originator of the Classifications that are now common place and used by FBI  profilers and law enforcement. it was his clinical studies that laid the foundations for everything we know today.

Roy Hazzelwood  picks up where Groth"s work stops.  Hazelwood was one of the originators of the Behavioral Science Unit within the FBI and was actively in the field trying to solve cases. Hazelwoods specialty focus was on sexual crime and rape.  he has put out a few books most notable _"The Evil that Men Do"_
His book is a collection of case studies that he worked on.  also is _"Dark Dreams"  _it is a kind of follow up to his first book.

_"Seductions of Crime" _ was pretty good by Jack Katz  it's a "chilling exploration of the criminal mind"  so says the title.  released in 1988 so its been a long long timee since i read it....maybe im due for a re-read.

     Now on top of all these i would suggest reading military classics on war. this may be beyond the scope of the OP interest but i thought i would mention it since they can be a wealth of information.

Chinese books, the 7 Chinese classics;

T'ai Kung's Six Secret Teachings
The Methods of Ssu-Ma
Sun- Tzu, The Art of War
Wu -Tzu
Wei Liao-Tzu
Three Strategies of Huang Shih- Kung
Questions and Replies, T'ang T'ai-tsung and Li Wei-Kung
Sun Pin, Military Methods
Western authors ,books;

Vegetius _"De re Militari"  De re militari - Wikipedia_
Marshal Maurice de saxe _"My reveries on the art of war"   Maurice de Saxe - Wikipedia_
Frederick the great _"Instructions for generals"  Frederick the Great - Wikipedia_
Napoleon _"Military Maxims" _
Ardant du Picq _"battle studies" Ardant du Picq - Wikipedia_
Carl Von Clausewitz _ "Principals of War"   Carl von Clausewitz - Wikipedia_
Antoine- Henri Jomini _"Art of war"   Antoine-Henri Jomini - Wikipedia_
_
Edit:
Also "Blacks Law Dictionary "  and "The FBI Crime Classifications Manual " are invaluable books for a library on these topics._


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## ShortBridge (Nov 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I was replying to Drop Bear.



Ah, he's on my ignore list, so I didn't see what he posted.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Ah, he's on my ignore list, so I didn't see what he posted.


I've often wished the system had some way of indicating where ignored content was, to demystify those blank spaces.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 4, 2017)

for on line content;

YouTube channel  "_Active Self Protection"_ Active Self Protection
they have a great catalog of video of shootings and assaults.  John Correia does a good commentary on the video footage. and if you dont like commentary there is always the volume button and you can just watch the clips.

YouTube  "_Nathan Wagar"  Nathan Wagar _has a few vids that are good,  unfortunately he hasnt put up new material in a long time.

YouTube "_Sucker Punch Oakland" _ihttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7XtFU9AFqCzSFHwoR28vsQ  s about bouncers and they do interviews with a lot of professionals.

YouTube  "_Funker Tactical"  Funker Tactical - Fight Training Videos _i believe this is Doug Marcaida's (knife and kali) channel, but there is a wide range of professionals making videos for the channel

the FBI has a web sight and a page for information,  Welcome to the LEB website  and 
National Criminal Justice Reference Service | NCJRS
you can also search topics of interest on Google with "FBI Bulletin" in the name and do some research that way as well.

i like Science Direct.   ScienceDirect.com | Science, health and medical journals, full text articles and books.
but its not free.  sights charge for content.  so a PDF study and report could cost $19.99  you get a 24 hour window to download it or print it out.
a science direct platform account allows you to access  Science Direct, Scopus, Mendeley, Evise, Elsevier Editorial, SciVal, Engineering vIllage, GeoFacts, Reaxys, Embase, ClincalKey, PharmaPendium and Pathway Studio.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I assume those first 4 are topics, rather than sources?



No sources. I could only be bothered linking one as I was on a phone.

Buyer beware: 10 common travel scams


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> No sources. I could only be bothered linking one as I was on a phone.
> 
> Buyer beware: 10 common travel scams


Those names (like “sales” and “pick up techniques”) won’t help much with a search.


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## drop bear (Nov 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Those names (like “sales” and “pick up techniques”) won’t help much with a search.



I just googled sales techniques got this.

7 Sales Techniques to Get Your Prospects to "Yes" Faster

Googled cash in transit got a PDF.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...UAaAQFgg5MAE&usg=AOvVaw1RCLdobHvDPeXCMbgDOTLd


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## Danny T (Nov 4, 2017)

The above stated and:
"In Sheep's Clothing" Understanding and Dealing with Manipulative People - George K. Simon Ph.D.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I just googled sales techniques got this.
> 
> 7 Sales Techniques to Get Your Prospects to "Yes" Faster
> 
> ...


Okay, so they were topics, rather than sources?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For those who have done the research, what are your favorite sources for the non-fighting topics related to self-defense? I'm thinking of things like de-escalation, recognizing threats, target hardening, victim selection, etc. I'm interested in both the technical sources (I'm a psychology nerd, so I'll even read a journal article of a related study) and the consumer-digestible content. Books, videos, articles, and even paid content/courses.
> 
> For those with experience in security/LE/bouncing, which sources line up with what you found to work?
> 
> For those who teach these things (to MA students, seminars, or to professionals), what seems to click?


I usually pull information from animal documentaries covering animal behavior, leadership and management books and online readings, scientific information about human behavior and how the body responds to external elements, and the anything I can get my hand on about vision and perception. 

My latest curiosity is magic.  I'm curious to know if I can apply some of the same methods that magicians use to fighting. They are excellent at misdirection.


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## Brian King (Nov 4, 2017)

An interesting source for reading material is the Commandants reading list.
When I was in the Army, the stereotype was the brains were Air Force and the muscle was the Marines. Today the U.S. Marines are both. In truth there are many bright professionals in all of the branches and the Commandants reading list is used by all branches.

Home - Commandant's Professional Reading List - Official Site - Research Guides Home at Library of the Marine Corps
Regards
Brian King


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, so they were topics, rather than sources?



If you want them to be.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I usually pull information from animal documentaries covering animal behavior, leadership and management books and online readings, scientific information about human behavior and how the body responds to external elements, and the anything I can get my hand on about vision and perception.
> 
> My latest curiosity is magic.  I'm curious to know if I can apply some of the same methods that magicians use to fighting. They are excellent at misdirection.


Do you have some sources you particularly like?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you want them to be.


A source would be a specific book, instructor, video, company, etc. You're just pointing to topics to search for. I'm hoping folks will share specific sources they like, that they've found credible and useful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 5, 2017)

Brian King said:


> An interesting source for reading material is the Commandants reading list.
> When I was in the Army, the stereotype was the brains were Air Force and the muscle was the Marines. Today the U.S. Marines are both. In truth there are many bright professionals in all of the branches and the Commandants reading list is used by all branches.
> 
> Home - Commandant's Professional Reading List - Official Site - Research Guides Home at Library of the Marine Corps
> ...


I remember hearing a news story some time back about a shift in the leadership training in the Marines, making use of what had been learned over time both in the military and in the civilian world. They've clearly put a lot of effort into that "brains" side in the last generation, at least.


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## Paul_D (Nov 5, 2017)

My number one recommendation would be Dead or Alive: The Definitive Self Protection Handbook by Geoff Thompson.  It was fundamental in me understanding that MA and SD are two different things (that and Iain Abernethy's Martial Map Podcast).  Being on the small side (me, not the book ;-) ) it was worth the price alone purely for the fact that after reading it, I was for the first time in my life able to fully relax in a pub.  It also the only book that talks in any depth about SD in terms other than men fighting each other in the street.

There are other book that look into the non physical skills, The Little Balck Book of Violence, Lee Morrisons Urban Combatives, but not nearly in as much depth, and even then the focus remains on men fighting each other in the street.

One of the best websites I've come across for the non physical side of SD is Suzy Lamplugh Trust | Home

Iain Abernethy's Podcasts, as previousy mentioned, are full of excellent, and free information.

What I have found clicks most on SD courses is when you teach people, particularly women, about how criminals select their victims.  Just avoiding simple patterns of behaviour gets taken on board much better than teaching them strangle escapes,  for example, which if they don't continue to practice will be of little use to them anyway.  That and The Fence/The Wedge, whatever name you chose ot give it.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Do you have some sources you particularly like?


 Ivan Pavlov and Classical Conditioning (Pavlovian or respondent conditioning) + Human Behavior Pattern Recognition

Pavlov Source #1:  

 Pavlov Source #2: More references at the bottom.
Pavlov Source #3:  Youtube Video
Human Behavior #1:  National Geographic Alpha Male.  (one of my favorite)
Human Behavior #2:  National Geographic. The science of stress
Pattern Recognition #1: Ted talk
Pattern Recognition #2: Human Behavior is 93% Predictable.  Not a lot of info. But was one of the articles that made me look at martial arts forms differently, especially with the debate that old techniques don't work.  Instead of only looking at reaction responses, I now look at behavior responses in the context of a person's reaction.  So identify a behavior and associate a response.  An example of this may be that brawlers have different behavioral patterns that those who depend on strategy.  If you have students then your strategic students may be the quiet students while your brawlers may be the students who have more of a dominant personality.   If there is a connection between the two then you can almost figure what type of fighter you are fighting before the fight even starts, simply by recognizing the behavioral patterns. This ties into another small article that I read about Psychology "*The way that people do one thing is the way that they do everything.*" If this holds true then this would apply to fighting and self-defense.

*Animal Behavior* -  Pick any video document that talks about the behavior of animals.  If you are from the "camp" that accepts humans as animals then you'll begin to recognize similar patterns in animal and human behavior.  

Business Management Books -  Victory Secrets of Attila the Hun, The Art of War (couldn't find the book but it was from a business perspective. It's somewhere in my house),  

Human Vision Source #1: 

Human Vision Source #2:  Basketball Peripheral Training.  This interest me because I played basketball, but never trained my peripheral vision for basketball.  It was just something that was the thing do to "No look passes" is what every kids wants to be good at because it makes you look good when you do it.  In basketball you are often tracking with Peripheral vision.  I never really thought how I did it, so I'm trying to map out how I learned it. Without doing drills like the one in the video.  My curiosity is to understand how some people may be trying to train it..  Every now in then I come across a video like this one.  



 , where people think they are using their Peripheral Vision but because I read the biology research etc. on vision,  I know that we can't see color with Peripheral Vision.  I'm not saying the guy isn't using is peripheral vision.  Because if he can see the color of the cones then it must mean that is peripheral vision is on the soccer ball and not the cones.  It's similar to basketball, where we focus on the people who are on the court but we don't look at the ball when we dribble.  Taking into consideration that the brain is auto calculating the speed of the ball, the angle, the movement of the body, the movement of the defender, the movement of other players, and the recognition of openings, my theory is that we suck at fighting and that we are probably getting in the way.   Not sure if anyone here plays basketball or has played basketball before, but there's a lot of pattern recognition and calculation that happens on auto pilot.  If I can train my kung fu in a similar manner that basketball is trained then I should be able to more than double my fighting ability. I just need to translate Basketball into Kung Fu.


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## frank raud (Nov 7, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I usually pull information from animal documentaries covering animal behavior, leadership and management books and online readings, scientific information about human behavior and how the body responds to external elements, and the anything I can get my hand on about vision and perception.
> 
> My latest curiosity is magic.  I'm curious to know if I can apply some of the same methods that magicians use to fighting. They are excellent at misdirection.


Magicians and pickpockets depend on misdirection to make their "tricks" work. A Pickpocket’s Tale   A great book which covers some of the subject(from a martial arts perspective) is The Liar The Cheat and the Thief by Maija Soderholm. The subtitle is deception and the art of sword play. while the sword drills may not be relevant to you, the first half of the book will be.


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## frank raud (Nov 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For those who have done the research, what are your favorite sources for the non-fighting topics related to self-defense? I'm thinking of things like de-escalation, recognizing threats, target hardening, victim selection, etc. I'm interested in both the technical sources (I'm a psychology nerd, so I'll even read a journal article of a related study) and the consumer-digestible content. Books, videos, articles, and even paid content/courses.
> 
> For those with experience in security/LE/bouncing, which sources line up with what you found to work?
> 
> For those who teach these things (to MA students, seminars, or to professionals), what seems to click?


My first exposure to the non-fighting aspects of self defense were through Craig Douglas, aka Southnarc. I still take his Managing Unknown Contacts course when I have the opportunity as a refresher.


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## frank raud (Nov 7, 2017)

Other people who I find valuable resources include Dr. William Aprill  Aprill Risk Consulting – Acquiring an Armed Mindset and Paul Sharp  SBG Illinois & Sharp Defense


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Magicians and pickpockets depend on misdirection to make their "tricks" work. A Pickpocket’s Tale   A great book which covers some of the subject(from a martial arts perspective) is The Liar The Cheat and the Thief by Maija Soderholm. The subtitle is deception and the art of sword play. while the sword drills may not be relevant to you, the first half of the book will be.


Thanks.  I'm going to read it. It'll be a starting point for me.


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## frank raud (Nov 7, 2017)

There is a lot of crossover from sales to self defense, as much of sales involves a degree of manipulation or the ability to read a person, gathering clues from body language and verbal clues. You can find some of the same stuff in poker. The book of tells by Peter Collett is a digestible study of body language.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 7, 2017)

having been in car sales myself and it being a family business (my dad owns the dealership)  i often think about how sales(closing) is really a form of negotiation and it is very applicable to de-escalation.  the ability to control the conversation (and thus emotions), the ability to guide and direct it, is something i add to my curriculum.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Magicians and pickpockets depend on misdirection to make their "tricks" work. A Pickpocket’s Tale   A great book which covers some of the subject(from a martial arts perspective) is The Liar The Cheat and the Thief by Maija Soderholm. The subtitle is deception and the art of sword play. while the sword drills may not be relevant to you, the first half of the book will be.


I just read the article.  I now have a few ideas to work with.  The statement about the eyes following an arc was interesting.  I think I may be able to put that in practice.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 7, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For those who have done the research, what are your favorite sources for the non-fighting topics related to self-defense? I'm thinking of things like de-escalation, recognizing threats, target hardening, victim selection, etc. I'm interested in both the technical sources (I'm a psychology nerd, so I'll even read a journal article of a related study) and the consumer-digestible content. Books, videos, articles, and even paid content/courses.
> 
> For those with experience in security/LE/bouncing, which sources line up with what you found to work?
> 
> For those who teach these things (to MA students, seminars, or to professionals), what seems to click?



My list would be rather esoteric.  I would not expect most people to see the relevance, but these are indeed non-fighting topics related to self-defense, to me anyway.

In no particular order:

Catch Me If You Can - Frank Abagnale Catch Me if You Can (book) - Wikipedia

The Book of Lies - Aleister Crowley Book of Lies

The I Ching or Book of Changes, Hexagram 23  Hexagram 23 (Stripping (bō). Splitting Apart) | Book of Changes (I Ching)

The Principia Discordia The Principia Discordia

Two Years Before The Mast - Richard Henry Dana Jr 

The Razor's Edge - W. Somerset Maugham

The Rosy Crucifixion - Henry Miller

A Garden of Sand - Earl Thompson

Little Birds - Anais Nin

Unspoiled Heart - The Journal of Charles Mattocks of the 17th Maine - Charles Mattocks

The Crusades - Zoe Oldenbourg

That should do for now.  More if anyone's interested.


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## geezer (Nov 10, 2017)

@Bill -- That's quite a diverse reading list! One entry that I find especially surprising is Aleister Crowley's enigmatic _Book of Lies. _Perhaps you could give some small inkling as to what lead you to include Crowley on your list?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> @Bill -- That's quite a diverse reading list! One entry that I find especially surprising is Aleister Crowley's enigmatic _Book of Lies. _Perhaps you could give some small inkling as to what lead you to include Crowley on your list?


well my guess would be the fact that Crowley spent years standing in front of a mirror trying to make himself disappear.   imagine if instead of fighting you could just vanish into thin air and walk away unbeknownst to your assailant.


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## JR 137 (Nov 10, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> well my guess would be the fact that Crowley spent years standing in front of a mirror trying to make himself disappear.   imagine if instead of fighting you could just vanish into thin air and walk away unbeknownst to your assailant.


Ninjas do that all the time.  Ever see them throw that smoke ball on the ground?  I’ve got to find out where they get those things.  It would get me out of a lot of chores around the house.


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## Paul_D (Nov 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> well my guess would be the fact that Crowley spent years standing in front of a mirror trying to make himself disappear.   imagine if instead of fighting you could just vanish into thin air and walk away unbeknownst to your assailant.


You can, have you not seen Ashida Kim's Ninja Invisibilty video?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 22, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> You can, have you not seen Ashida Kim's Ninja Invisibilty video?


no i have the book,  i guess it doesnt do him justice.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

geezer said:


> @Bill -- That's quite a diverse reading list! One entry that I find especially surprising is Aleister Crowley's enigmatic _Book of Lies. _Perhaps you could give some small inkling as to what lead you to include Crowley on your list?



It's interesting that you should hone in on that one particular reference.  I will try to give you some references, but in honesty, the entire book contains code for martial arts training in a very 'holistic' sense.

Let's take this one:
*THE LEOPARD AND THE DEER*
The spots of the leopard are the sunlight in the glade; pursue thou the deer stealthily at thy pleasure.
The dappling of the deer is the sunlight in the glade; concealed from the leopard do thou feed at thy pleasure.
Resemble all that surroundeth thee; yet be Thyself—and take thy pleasure among the living.
This is that which is written—Lurk!—in The Book of The Law.​
I have underlined the most obvious part in the quote above.

This one is right out of the basic Eight Laws of the Fist:

*SAMPSON*
The Universe is in equilibrium; therefore He that is without it, though his force be but a feather, can overturn the Universe.
Be not caught within that web, O child of Freedom! Be not entangled in the universal lie, O child of Truth!​
"A person's unbalance is the same as a weight."

*THE MOUNTAINEER*
Consciousness is a symptom of disease.
All that moves well moves without will.
All skillfulness, all strain, all intention is contrary to ease.
Practise a thousand times, and it becomes difficult; a thousand thousand, and it becomes easy; a thousand thousand times a thousand thousand, and it is no longer Thou that doeth it, but It that doeth itself through thee. Not until then is that which is done well done.
Thus spoke FRATER PERDURABO as he leapt from rock to rock of the moraine without ever casting his eyes upon the ground.​
The above quote speaks of the necessity of training and repetition, delves into the Japanese notion of 'mushin', and takes it even further.

When you practice kihon and kata over and over and over again, you begin to do it without thinking.  This brings you to a state of mushin, where your body reacts without conscious thought (another of the Eight Laws of the Fist).  Taken to extremes, and you're not doing karate - karate is moving within you.

Or at least that's how I am currently thinking of it.  I'm a long way away from that kind of karate.  But I think I can see it ahead on the path.

Hopefully that helps.  I really enjoy the entire book, such as it is.  There's a lot of gibberish; in my opinion, it was placed there intentionally to distract those who are incapable of absorbing the simple truths expressed.  Likewise the mystical or quasi-religious aspects.  Those that see it as that miss the point, but that was by intent, I believe.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> no i have the book,  i guess it doesnt do him justice.


By that emoticon, I feel fairly sure it does. I'd love to read that.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> It's interesting that you should hone in on that one particular reference.  I will try to give you some references, but in honesty, the entire book contains code for martial arts training in a very 'holistic' sense.
> 
> Let's take this one:
> *THE LEOPARD AND THE DEER*
> ...


Do you think the meaning you take from it is intentional?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> By that emoticon, I feel fairly sure it does. I'd love to read that.


they dont have a "sarcastic" emoji.   Ashida Kim books are not worth wiping your butt with.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> they dont have a "sarcastic" emoji.   Ashida Kim books are not worth wiping your butt with.


Then they do his videos perfect justice. I think they must be excellent reading - like reading the book "English, How she is spoke" (a treatise on spoken English, written IIRC in Portuguese by a non-English speaker, then translated via two translation dictionaries (with French or Spanish being the intermediary language).


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> Do you think the meaning you take from it is intentional?


I don't know about that work, but my impression is that much of the meaning we draw from literature (and movies, and paintings, and music) has much more to do with us than with the artist.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about that work, but my impression is that much of the meaning we draw from literature (and movies, and paintings, and music) has much more to do with us than with the artist.


Ehhhhh...  I don't know if I would go that far.  I'd say some of the meaning we draw is personal, but it's very, very important to distinguish between what was intended and what was not.  Any art form has layers.  But educating oneself about what was intended by the artist or author is a huge part of understanding what the art really means.  Sure, you can draw further meaning from it, but that's actually, IMO, a small part of it, and in fact can lead you down a rabbit hole that is opposite of what was really meant by the artist or author.

And, of course, there is value in drawing personal meaning from art, but I would propose that it should be done intentionally, understanding how it deviates from the intentions of the author. 

So, getting back to this, I asked because I'm not familiar with this and just wanted to know if this was personal interpretation or what the author intended.


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## dvcochran (Nov 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Cash in transit. Or cash handling.
> Lonely planet guide and travel tips.
> Sales
> Pick up techniques.
> ...


Made the mistake of clicking on the link. That's just sad.


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## drop bear (Nov 22, 2017)

dvcochran said:


> Made the mistake of clicking on the link. That's just sad.



A lot more usefull than color codes or finger in the eye.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> Do you think the meaning you take from it is intentional?


 
Isn't everything?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know about that work, but my impression is that much of the meaning we draw from literature (and movies, and paintings, and music) has much more to do with us than with the artist.



True, sometimes. But tell me, is "Moby Dick" a book about a whale?


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> Ehhhhh...  I don't know if I would go that far.  I'd say some of the meaning we draw is personal, but it's very, very important to distinguish between what was intended and what was not.  Any art form has layers.  But educating oneself about what was intended by the artist or author is a huge part of understanding what the art really means.  Sure, you can draw further meaning from it, but that's actually, IMO, a small part of it, and in fact can lead you down a rabbit hole that is opposite of what was really meant by the artist or author.
> 
> And, of course, there is value in drawing personal meaning from art, but I would propose that it should be done intentionally, understanding how it deviates from the intentions of the author.
> 
> So, getting back to this, I asked because I'm not familiar with this and just wanted to know if this was personal interpretation or what the author intended.



Aleister Crowley was no martial artist, if that's what you mean. He was a loony, among other things. He embraced ancient concepts of mystery religions and cults and used many of their techniques, hiding and transmitting information in various ways. It was intended, although the individual  interpretation can't be proven.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> True, sometimes. But tell me, is "Moby Dick" a book about a whale?


Yes.  And other things.  If it doesn’t work as a book about a whale, it doesn’t work.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Isn't everything?


No.  Not everything is intentional.  Sometimes it’s eisegesis.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Next you guys are going to suggest there isn’t such a thing as bad poetry.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> No.  Not everything is intentional.  Sometimes it’s eisegesis.



But there's no real way to prove which is which.  I also notice that when I buy a car, I suddenly see a lot of the exact same model on the road.  They were always there, I just wasn't looking for them.

However, ultimately, it's not about anyone but me with regard to the insights I draw from my reading material.  I don't proclaim universal truths or beat the drum regarding my findings.  A question was asked, I answered.  How others choose to see that is up to them.  If I am drawing false interpretations from what I read, it either hinders my exploration of my martial arts path, helps it, or does nothing of consequence.  In any of the possible solutions, it is *my* path, and no concern of anyone else's.


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## Martial D (Nov 22, 2017)

Do not comport yourself as a victim, but instead as a master(of yourself and your environment)
https://www.tke.org/files/file/The_48_Laws_of_Power.pdf


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> But there's no real way to prove which is which.  I also notice that when I buy a car, I suddenly see a lot of the exact same model on the road.  They were always there, I just wasn't looking for them.
> 
> However, ultimately, it's not about anyone but me with regard to the insights I draw from my reading material.  I don't proclaim universal truths or beat the drum regarding my findings.  A question was asked, I answered.  How others choose to see that is up to them.  If I am drawing false interpretations from what I read, it either hinders my exploration of my martial arts path, helps it, or does nothing of consequence.  In any of the possible solutions, it is *my* path, and no concern of anyone else's.


I think you’re reading things into my post that weren’t intended.   No need to get defensive.  I’m not aware of the person you quoted.   I am interested in whether he meant the things you read into his words, or if it’s your own interpretation.   If you don’t know, that’s fine.  but saying it’s no one else’s concern is a cop out when you post it on an international forum.

And also, in a different vein, gpseymour said some stuff and I answered him.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 22, 2017)

I always make this mistake. My fault. See ya.


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## Steve (Nov 22, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I always make this mistake. My fault. See ya.


Good lord.  You’re a prickly fella sometimes.  Have a happy thanksgiving.  If you don’t know, why can’t you just say so?


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## drop bear (Nov 22, 2017)

Steve said:


> Do you think the meaning you take from it is intentional?



On that vein I based my bouncing on a misinterpretation of the gambler.

You gotta know when to hold em.
Know when to fold em.
Know when to walk away.
Know when to run.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> True, sometimes. But tell me, is "Moby Dick" a book about a whale?


It is not. And I think there’s much to be taken from it that goes beyond what the author was aware of when writing it. I believe that’s true of many works. In some cases, it’s meaning that can be universally seen. In other cases, it’s meaning that comes partially from our own experiences and interpretation.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Ehhhhh...  I don't know if I would go that far.  I'd say some of the meaning we draw is personal, but it's very, very important to distinguish between what was intended and what was not.  Any art form has layers.  But educating oneself about what was intended by the artist or author is a huge part of understanding what the art really means.  Sure, you can draw further meaning from it, but that's actually, IMO, a small part of it, and in fact can lead you down a rabbit hole that is opposite of what was really meant by the artist or author.
> 
> And, of course, there is value in drawing personal meaning from art, but I would propose that it should be done intentionally, understanding how it deviates from the intentions of the author.
> 
> So, getting back to this, I asked because I'm not familiar with this and just wanted to know if this was personal interpretation or what the author intended.


See my reply to Bill. I’m not saying there’s no intentional transmission. The “moral of the story” level is almost certainly intentional, and only flavored by our experience. In classical artwork, there was a lot of common imagery used, and that would have been intentional. If we go to the other extreme, abstract art tends to get some very different interpretations. Some songs (with words) get different interpretations, and it’s unclear which was intended, like a large portion of poetry.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> eisegesis


That is a fancy word....remind me to never play you in scrabble.

I thought I would point out that much of what writers put down on paper have the surface exegesis meaning(see what I did there..adding a big word.) that the author consciously intended but many times there is also a subconscious meaning that expresses itself.
John Lennon had said many of the songs he wrote after the Beatles ...I thought when I wrote them they were about Paul but looking back I see now they were more about me..
Also authors tend to somehow tap into timeless mythology motifs that they are unaware of. So there are common threads running through our heads subconsciously that we draw from that are shared with other people.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It is not. And I think there’s much to be taken from it that goes beyond what the author was aware of when writing it. I believe that’s true of many works. In some cases, it’s meaning that can be universally seen. In other cases, it’s meaning that comes partially from our own experiences and interpretation.



Let me try to explain by way of example:

*SAMPSON*
The Universe is in equilibrium; therefore He that is without it, though his force be but a feather, can overturn the Universe.
Be not caught within that web, O child of Freedom! Be not entangled in the universal lie, O child of Truth!​
Now, what is the meaning of the above?  It can be difficult to discern - it could be random babble from a known drug-abuser and lunatic.  However, when studying this from the point of view of a martial artist, I see several things.

First, the title, which is 'Sampson'.  Who was Sampson (aka Samson)?  Known for strength, overcome by treachery, etc.  The guy who knocked down the pillars. 

From my reading of Crowley, I know that he equated the fabled feats of strength displayed by Samson to direct application of Archimedes' principles, that is, leverage.  So we are talking about balance here.

Now, applying that to my understanding of martial arts principles, I know that balance is an extremely important component of engagement with an adversary.  However, I have always looked at it from the standpoint of keeping my own balance whilst stealing the balance of my opponent.  "A person's unbalance is the same as a weight," as the 8 Laws of the Fist would have it.

However, on reading the quote above from Crowley, my eyes were opened.  He seems to be saying that a person without equilibrium (balance) can overturn the universe.  Now, that directly correlates to Crowley's aforementioned comparison of Samson to Archimedes ("Give me a long enough lever and a place to stand and I can move the world.")

But more than that.  In a martial arts sense, it becomes clear that ANY person's unbalance is the same as a weight.  Not just my opponent's but mine.

But it is a positive statement, not a negative statement.  In other words, it is not an exhortation not to lose one's balance, but rather, an observation that losing one's balance gives one leverage to "overturn the Universe."

Think of how many ways in which this basic observation is true, not just in the arena of martial arts.  Think of world events, history, even recent events (which I will not mention, but I think you can guess).  Notice how 'unbalance' even when mental and not physical can have an outsized impact on the world.

So.  I wonder about how I might unbalance MYSELF and use it to my advantage.  I then see that judoka do this.  There are many types of throws which begin with receiving more than taking, appearing to give, when actually in full control.  One falls to throw, one stoops to conquer, so to speak.

As a result of this, now I am thinking more about how I can engage the use of 'controlled unbalance' on my own part to defeat an adversary - moving the world by giving way, and not necessarily as the judoka do.  Perhaps there is more there.  I don't know.  I am studying it.

Did the author intend any of this?  Not in the martial arts sense, of course.  Crowley was no martial artist.  However, he was an adept at controlling public interest, dictating fashion, remaining in the public eye, being followed, talked about, and even (in some quarters) revered.  Can we not say he was applying this principle himself?  Does one not see how this concept of using leverage from an unbalanced position can be applied to all manner of things, mental and physical?

So this is how I read things.  One asks if this was the author's intent, or if I am applying my own interpretation on it.  Certainly I am applying my own interpretation on it, and certainly Crowley did not intend to write an exposition of martial arts training.  However, a valid observation is a valid observation, both on his part and on mine.  He said something which I believe is rather startling when I think about how it applies to everything in general, and then how it applies to my life as a martial artist in particular.

Summary - it doesn't matter where you find truth; whether the person who put it there meant for you to see it or not, whether it was intended consciously or unconsciously.  All quite beside the point.  I take what I find, think about it, see if I can apply it according to the notion I have developed around it.  If I can, then it is truth, and how I came by it is not important at all.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2017)

Okay, I’d like to clarify my posts, because it seems like I have unintentionally given you guys the impression I was being judgmental.

Take kata.  I don’t do kata but someone named bill mattocks has explained that kata is a deep well of meaning, and that the more he practices the more meaning he gets out of it.   He also has said that the more he learns about the intent behind the movements, the more meaning he gets.   Is one more valuable than the other?  I don’t know.   Maybe, maybe not.   But I would say that the more one knows about the original intent, the more one could get from one’s own practice and contemplation.  Said plainly, would Iain Abernathy be the kata guru he is if he didn’t start with a solid grounding in what the katas were intended to mean?i would guess not.   

So, back to the original question, it was intended to be a benign inquiry about what the author intended.  I apologize for causing a kerfuffle the day before thanksgiving.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

Steve said:


> Okay, I’d like to clarify my posts, because it seems like I have unintentionally given you guys the impression I was being judgmental.
> 
> Take kata.  I don’t do kata but someone named bill mattocks has explained that kata is a deep well of meaning, and that the more he practices the more meaning he gets out of it.   He also has said that the more he learns about the intent behind the movements, the more meaning he gets.   Is one more valuable than the other?  I don’t know.   Maybe, maybe not.   But I would say that the more one knows about the original intent, the more one could get from one’s own practice and contemplation.  Said plainly, would Iain Abernathy be the kata guru he is if he didn’t start with a solid grounding in what the katas were intended to mean?i would guess not.
> 
> So, back to the original question, it was intended to be a benign inquiry about what the author intended.  I apologize for causing a kerfuffle the day before thanksgiving.


I thought you started a good discussion there, Steve. And I agree that it’s useful to understand the original intent, as it might (or might not) guide the meaning we take from it.


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## drop bear (Nov 23, 2017)

Is this like two art critics arguing about the the merits of a new piece of contemporary art.


Right up until the trade needs his ladder back.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is this like two art critics arguing about the the merits of a new piece of contemporary art.
> 
> 
> Right up until the trade needs his ladder back.


Yep.


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## Steve (Nov 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Is this like two art critics arguing about the the merits of a new piece of contemporary art.
> 
> 
> Right up until the trade needs his ladder back.


Ah a ladder.   Must be talking about Dada then.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 24, 2017)

Thanks trolls. I'm gone.


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## Steve (Nov 24, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Thanks trolls. I'm gone.


No one is trolling you, bill.


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## Paul_D (Nov 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Said plainly, would Iain Abernathy be the kata guru he is if he didn’t start with a solid grounding in what the katas were intended to mean?i would guess not.


It would have taken him longer, but I think he still would have done yes.

We have many people like Iain now, but that was not always the case.  In the not too distant past we had generation after generation after generation of Karate instructors being taught, and passing on,  rubbish: kata is for fighting 8 people, the turns in kata are turns to face a new opponent, moves x,y,z, are blocks, and all the other BS that was (and unfortunately in some cases still is) taught.  Therefore at some point even if the instructors of people like Iain, John Burke etc, had not given them a good starting points they would inevitably have reached the conclusions they have. 

The reason I say that is that once you experience the realities of criminal violence, even the most stubborn and idiotic of people have to accept that kata as it was taught is nonsense.  So it was inevitable that people were at some point going to turn round and think, "That's bollocks because it doesn't work, so if we're not blocking, or we're not turning to face a new opponent, what practical application does this move have, what information is this "turn" actually giving us."

Coming from a good starting point makes the journey quicker, but like I say, for decades all we had was nonsense kata, so at some point someone has had to come from a nonsense starting point and made the journey to where we are now.

p.s. it's Abernethy btw, not Abernathy


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## inkypaws (Nov 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For those who have done the research, what are your favorite sources for the non-fighting topics related to self-defense? I'm thinking of things like de-escalation, recognizing threats, target hardening, victim selection, etc. I'm interested in both the technical sources (I'm a psychology nerd, so I'll even read a journal article of a related study) and the consumer-digestible content. Books, videos, articles, and even paid content/courses.



I've always found the secret service interesting by nature. Lethal and mysterious. They probably take the best of everything to train their ranks. I wonder if they have a book out there. Probably classified though.


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## Steve (Nov 25, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It would have taken him longer, but I think he still would have done yes.
> 
> We have many people like Iain now, but that was not always the case.  In the not too distant past we had generation after generation after generation of Karate instructors being taught, and passing on,  rubbish: kata is for fighting 8 people, the turns in kata are turns to face a new opponent, moves x,y,z, are blocks, and all the other BS that was (and unfortunately in some cases still is) taught.  Therefore at some point even if the instructors of people like Iain, John Burke etc, had not given them a good starting points they would inevitably have reached the conclusions they have.
> 
> ...


if this is the case, are you saying that abernethy’s karate is not “traditional?”  Once again, I’m not saying good or bad.   Just making sure I understand.   Are you suggesting that he is rediscovering the original intent or discovering/revealing new, modern application?


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 25, 2017)

Steve said:


> if this is the case, are you saying that abernethy’s karate is not “traditional?”  Once again, I’m not saying good or bad.   Just making sure I understand.   Are you suggesting that he is rediscovering the original intent or discovering/revealing new, modern application?


The question wasn't directed at me but.....
 this is some major thread drift...can we open its own thread topic?


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 25, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> The question wasn't directed at me but.....
> this is some major thread drift...can we open its own thread topic?


Probably appropriate to do so, though thread drift on a thread I started is probably just karma.


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## Paul_D (Nov 26, 2017)

Steve said:


> if this is the case, are you saying that abernethy’s karate is not “traditional?”  Once again, I’m not saying good or bad.   Just making sure I understand.   Are you suggesting that he is rediscovering the original intent or discovering/revealing new, modern application?


I would say hIs karate is traditional because he is rediscovering the original intent.  What passes as 'Traditional' most of the time these days is anything but that.


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## Steve (Nov 26, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I would say hIs karate is traditional because he is rediscovering the original intent.  What passes as 'Traditional' most of the time these days is anything but that.


I think that’s an important distinction.


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## frank raud (Nov 28, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me try to explain by way of example:
> 
> *SAMPSON*
> The Universe is in equilibrium; therefore He that is without it, though his force be but a feather, can overturn the Universe.
> ...



so, would you say that the interpretation of the book can depend on the experience of the reader? Much like many people read Sun Tzu for business purposes, although he obviously didn't have the boardroom in mind when he wrote The Art of War. It's been about 40 years since I've read Crowley, I'm sure my interpretation of the books will have changed in that time.


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## Kenposcholar (Nov 28, 2017)

These guys have provided an excellent free online self-defense course with no sign-up requirements. It's primarily aimed at women, but guys can apply a lot of the information, too. 
Women's Self Defense | Foundations Of Self-Defense


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2017)

Kenposcholar said:


> These guys have provided an excellent free online self-defense course with no sign-up requirements. It's primarily aimed at women, but guys can apply a lot of the information, too.
> Women's Self Defense | Foundations Of Self-Defense


Unfortunately, I can't get the site to load.


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## Kenposcholar (Nov 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Unfortunately, I can't get the site to load.



Sorry if the link is bad. Try this. 

Women's Self Defense


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 28, 2017)

Kenposcholar said:


> Sorry if the link is bad. Try this.
> 
> Women's Self Defense


It seems to be a problem with their actual site. In Chrome, it loads forever, and finally loads to an entirely blank page, with no error messages. I found I can view the page in the Edge browser. I can view the source code in Chrome, so it's actually loading, but there must be something wrong in the code somewhere that's stopping it from displaying in Chrome.


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## Kenposcholar (Nov 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It seems to be a problem with their actual site. In Chrome, it loads forever, and finally loads to an entirely blank page, with no error messages. I found I can view the page in the Edge browser. I can view the source code in Chrome, so it's actually loading, but there must be something wrong in the code somewhere that's stopping it from displaying in Chrome.



Not sure what's going on as the site works for me. Maybe save it & check tomorrow. There is excellent material they provide that could easily be utilized for a women's' self-defense class, too.


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## hoshin1600 (Nov 28, 2017)

i had no problem with the link.
i read some of their content.  its not bad but its not great either.  it appears to me that they have done some homework and pass that along on the sight but they do fall a little short on providing the whole picture.  there are assumptions being made and a lot of generalizations that are not always accurate.  the good news is that i didnt feel like i needed to pound my head on concrete, like i often do reading the nonsense that is out there.


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