# His job was to rape young girls before their execution



## Bill Mattocks

Disgusting.  I don't even know what to say.  If this story is true, I don't know how we can even consider making nice with Iran.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1246443842931&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull



> In the Islamic Republic it is illegal to execute a young woman, regardless of her crime, if she is a virgin, he explained. Therefore a "wedding" ceremony is conducted the night before the execution: The young girl is forced to have sexual intercourse with a prison guard - essentially raped by her "husband."


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## girlbug2

This is the result of their so-called "Theocracy". A wonderful advertisement.


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## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> Disgusting.  I don't even know what to say.



Indeed.  These are the same morality police that prevented young girls from exiting a burning building because they were not properly clothed to be around strange males.  This sort of religious belief is a powerful sickness.



Bill Mattocks said:


> If this story is true, I don't know how we can even consider making nice with Iran.



We've made nice with worse for worse reasons.  We have been friends with, and even supported and installed, myriad dictators and strongmen.  World politics is an ugly thing.


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## Omar B

And they think we are the bad guys, look how they treat their own women.


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## arnisador

It's like something out of WWII.


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## grydth

Few can despise the Satanocracy in Iran more than I do..... yet even I would need something more than a story from a disaffected and disgraced militia man before I'd believe this is the national policy there.


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## rhn_kenpo

Welcome to the mind of radical Islam.  In addition to this sort of moral outrage, they also want you and I dead.
R


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## Bill Mattocks

grydth said:


> Few can despise the Satanocracy in Iran more than I do..... yet even I would need something more than a story from a disaffected and disgraced militia man before I'd believe this is the national policy there.



I think that it is good to question such extraordinary claims.  Here is a news clipping from 1985 that says the same thing:

http://digitalnewspapers.libraries....true&BaseHref=DCG/1985/03/21&EntityId=Ar00500

Here's one from 2003:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,87281,00.html

2002:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-1315179/Terrorized-by-tradition-A-Commentary.html

So it appears to be a recurring theme, and it comes from a variety of sources, not just one militiaman.

However, it does seem so far out there that I perfectly understand your doubt.  In this case, I'm beginning to think there is truth to it.


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## JDenver

rhn_kenpo said:


> Welcome to the mind of radical Islam.  In addition to this sort of moral outrage, they also want you and I dead.
> R



Part of the problem is identifying just who 'THEY' is.  Even the word 'radical' sits in a position of subjectivity.  What a mess.

Oh, and I hate that this thread put this pre-execution rape idea into me brain!  Blah!


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## searcher

And everyone gives me a hard time about wanting to use some of our nuclear arsenal on such people.


I understand that we will have some colateral damage and that cannot be avoided, but it cannot be worse then what the girls are going through. 


And yes, they want us dead.    But we will sit around and do nothing while they perform these atrocities and kill off our people.    When will this country wake up and see how the world is?    It is time for the West to take a stand and do something.


*rant off*


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## Ken Morgan

searcher said:


> And everyone gives me a hard time about wanting to use some of our nuclear arsenal on such people.
> 
> 
> I understand that we will have some colateral damage and that cannot be avoided, but it cannot be worse then what the girls are going through.
> 
> 
> And yes, they want us dead. But we will sit around and do nothing while they perform these atrocities and kill off our people. When will this country wake up and see how the world is? It is time for the West to take a stand and do something.
> 
> 
> *rant off*


 

The minute you nuke the crazies, and there are way too many to get them all, you isolate yourself. All the moderate Muslims in the world suddenly scream for your blood. So instead of 20% hating you, youre now up to 99%.

Nope, its always better to be involved in nice quite covert operations. Give the opposition intelligence, $$, and whatever else they need, whenever they ask for it.

Just wait, Iran will be a fully functional democracy within the decade. Sadly there may be a **** load of internal blood before its over.


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## arnisador

Support atheism. It cures most of these problems. Zealotry in the name of the Abrahamic religions is a problem nearly world-wide.


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## Ken Morgan

arnisador said:


> Support atheism. It cures most of these problems. Zealotry in the name of the Abrahamic religions is a problem nearly world-wide.


 
Uh-huh. 
http://richarddawkins.net/


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## Omar B

I'm with you man.


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## Empty Hands

searcher said:


> And everyone gives me a hard time about wanting to use some of our nuclear arsenal on such people.



Perhaps because Iran is _maybe _5% such people, and 95% everybody else?



searcher said:


> I understand that we will have some colateral damage and that cannot be avoided, but it cannot be worse then what the girls are going through.



"Some" collateral damage?  There are 66 million people in Iran.  If we apply the above formula, that's about 62.7 _million_ collateral damage "units."  I'd say that goes beyond "some", and tells you why you get a hard time suggesting this solution.  

Also, it would be worse than what the girls go through.  I'd take rape and execution to dying from radiation poisoning.  You have no idea how horrible it is.


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## FeralKenpo

I don't believe that you can do something bad for the greater good.


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## Cirdan

Another example of the disease that is organized religion leading to opression, murder, rape, phedophilia and general cruelty inflicted upon the human race.


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## LoneRider

Destroy the unholy vermin. Redeem the moderates, but destroy the extremists.


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## Archangel M

good luck with the atheism thing...tell me how that works out for ya.


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## Tez3

Blaming religion and pretending all would be well without it is blinkered. People would merely find something else, Pol Pot, Stalin and Ceausescu and many others did. 
The raping of virgins before their execution/murder has been around since Roman times, in this case though perhaps it's excuse for inflicting yet another torture on somebody.


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## Ken Morgan

Archangel M said:


> good luck with the atheism thing...tell me how that works out for ya.


 
Actually It's working out quite well, thank you for asking!


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## Omar B

Tez3 said:


> Blaming religion and pretending all would be well without it is blinkered. People would merely find something else, Pol Pot, Stalin and Ceausescu and many others did.
> The raping of virgins before their execution/murder has been around since Roman times, in this case though perhaps it's excuse for inflicting yet another torture on somebody.



Congrats, I've found my Ceaucescu reference for the day!


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## celtic_crippler

"Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever. 

That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)


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## Tez3

celtic_crippler said:


> "Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever.
> 
> That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)


 
I disagree though, religion in itself doesn't do anything. People will always find a way to justify their deeds, religion is only one way, get rid of it and something else will take it's place, it's human nature thats at fault, we will always have a reason to be intolerant. Yu can twist any belief or even non belief into something foul.


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## celtic_crippler

Tez3 said:


> I disagree though, religion in itself doesn't do anything. People will always find a way to justify their deeds, religion is only one way, get rid of it and something else will take it's place, it's human nature thats at fault, we will always have a reason to be intolerant. *Yu can twist any belief or even non belief into something foul*.


 
Yup...and it's called "religion." LOL


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## CoryKS

celtic_crippler said:


> "Religion" is responsible for more death and suffering throughout our history than anything else. It doesn't matter what name it goes by; Islam, Christianity, ..whatever.
> 
> That being said, I feel that "spititual" people typically have good character. I suppose you could say that I view religion as a perversion of spirituality. Most often used for political gain (power.)


 
I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it.  Religion is a tool, and it works really well for getting a whole lot of people to move in one direction without having to explain the whys and wherefores to them.  Sometimes you get unsavory people holding the reins, and sometimes you get unintended consequences where someone interprets doctrine in an unorthodox manner.  But I think its best to focus on those specific events rather than to discourage religious participation in general, because it can be valuable.


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## Tez3

celtic_crippler said:


> Yup...and it's called "religion." LOL


 
So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.


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## CoryKS

Tez3 said:


> So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.


 
I consider communism to be a religion.  It reveres the state rather than a deity, but the trappings are essentially the same.  Eric Hoffer wrote a fascinating book called The True Believer, which discusses the traits of mass movements and the reasons why people join them.  Highly recommended.


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## celtic_crippler

CoryKS said:


> I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it. Religion is a tool, and it works really well for getting a whole lot of people to move in one direction without having to explain the whys and wherefores to them. Sometimes you get unsavory people holding the reins, and sometimes you get unintended consequences where someone interprets doctrine in an unorthodox manner. But I think its best to focus on those specific events rather than to discourage religious participation in general, because it can be valuable.


 
Sorry...don't mean to come off that way. Religion is the tool, yes I recognize that. But it's a dangerous tool because people use it to tap into other's emotions, hopes, and spirituality to further an agenda. When you control someone's faith they'll believe and do what ever you say. 



Tez3 said:


> So what justified the communist atrocities? The communist countries are atheist and anti religion yet in the old USSR millions were tortured and killed.


 
They're actually Greek Orthodox I believe? But anyway, Stalin outlawed "religion" because he didn't want any competition...the "state" was the new "religion." ...a rose by any other name still stinks...lol


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## MA-Caver

I keep finding it strange how we are condemning another religion/country that condemns us as harshly for how WE live. How we let our women dress and act and so forth. 
The definition of evil is a blurred line and it depends upon which side of it you live. 
Agreed it's horrible in the manner that they treat their women, even condemned prisoners who are probably guilty only of violating a religious precept... and even then probably falsely accused by an irate husband who feels that it's within his right to do so because she burnt dinner one night, or spoke back at him during an argument. 

Bombing these people and talk of "wiping them off the face of the earth" sounds just like what they want to do to us. Yet peace/treaty negotiations are necessary for both sides to prevent the rhetoric from becoming a reality. Sort of leave us alone and we'll leave you alone. 
The BIG problem is that there are those who do NOT want to leave "them" alone because they got something we want... oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. If we curb that lustful part of ourselves then the worries about what goes on over there would be curbed as well and they would likely stop worrying about us coming over to take away their wealth, which is essentially what we want to do in the long run. 
I say WE by way of the present "powers that be"... and I'm not talking about our government(s) but the powers that are behind said governments. 
Of course this means getting the oil companies and their stockholders to curb their own greed and allowing the technology of non-fossil fuels to be mass produced and implemented into our societies that we would not need that stuff that comes up outta the ground... or at least not as much as present demands require. 

yeah.... rrriiiggghhhtt!


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## celtic_crippler

MA-Caver said:


> I keep finding it strange how we are condemning another religion/country that condemns us as harshly for how WE live. How we let our women dress and act and so forth.
> The definition of evil is a blurred line and it depends upon which side of it you live.
> Agreed it's horrible in the manner that they treat their women, even condemned prisoners who are probably guilty only of violating a religious precept... and even then probably falsely accused by an irate husband who feels that it's within his right to do so because she burnt dinner one night, or spoke back at him during an argument.
> 
> Bombing these people and talk of "wiping them off the face of the earth" sounds just like what they want to do to us. Yet peace/treaty negotiations are necessary for both sides to prevent the rhetoric from becoming a reality. Sort of leave us alone and we'll leave you alone.
> The BIG problem is that there are those who do NOT want to leave "them" alone because they got something we want... oil that is, black gold, Texas tea. If we curb that lustful part of ourselves then the worries about what goes on over there would be curbed as well and they would likely stop worrying about us coming over to take away their wealth, which is essentially what we want to do in the long run.
> I say WE by way of the present "powers that be"... and I'm not talking about our government(s) but the powers that are behind said governments.
> Of course this means getting the oil companies and their stockholders to curb their own greed and allowing the technology of non-fossil fuels to be mass produced and implemented into our societies that we would not need that stuff that comes up outta the ground... or at least not as much as present demands require.
> 
> yeah.... rrriiiggghhhtt!


 
Point taken...I don't hear a lot about the African nations forcing female circumcision being bombed back to the stone age. 

BUT...it doesn't make it any less a human rights violation. Another big problem with religion, any religion, is that it most often does not lend itself to logic, reason, or basic common sense.


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## Live True

celtic_crippler said:


> BUT...it doesn't make it any less a human rights violation. Another big problem with religion, any religion, is that it most often does not lend itself to logic, reason, or basic common sense.


 
CC you make some very valid points, and I agree that this treatment of women is barbaric and hideously cruel. I also agree that some of the worst atrocities are committed in the name of religion and fanatical idealogies. To the OP, I personally think this man and his cohorts should have some anatomical revisions made....%-}


That said, faith is not a wholly bad thing, and you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. First - - realizing this is specifically why some folks disapprove of religion - - I believe that religion is meant to address that part of our world and beliefs that doesn't always match science and logic, as we know it. It is the same part of us that reaches poetic and artistic heights in some finer pieces of music, sculpture, or other type of art. (and for the record, I do not believe you have to have religion or faith to create amazing art...thbbttt!) It is that intuitive and creative part of us that cannot be pinned down by science, at least not as we know it. I do not think that makes it bad. I simply think it makes it different and hard for some to grasp.

Unfortunately, not all people seek religion for self knowledge, aesthetic, and/or self and world exploration. Many choose religion for comfort, belonging, and/or direction...and there lies the problem. If you are choosing religion for comfort, then you will sacrifice whatever reason and logic you have to keep your comfort level high. If you are choosing relgion for belonging, then you will do what you have to so you can continue to belong...at least until belonging is no longer satisfactory to you. Finally, if you are choosing religion for direction, because you don't WANT to think, then you are ripe pickings for any strong minded individual who comes along. Sheep, by any other name, are easily led and misled...and there are more wolves than shephards willing to take charge, it seems.


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## Live True

Religion and politics are both used to control the masses in many of the worst atrocities of history....so, perhaps, it's frenzied ideaology that you dislike so...and religion is just one of the easier targets to pin down.

These men are using thier culture and religion to excuse thier actions.  Quite honestly, that's a lie.  They had a choice.  It was simply easier to choose to "go along" and "do what they were told".
<><><>
Fortunately for us, religion and politics are also responsible for some truly amazing and beautiful creations...(and destruction of same...sigh)

bamiyam buddha (destroyed in 2001 by the Taliban//170+ feet tall?)






parthenon




machu picchu





palace tombs at petra




angkor wat, cambodia


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## celtic_crippler

Further back-thread I said I find spritual people are most often of better character. Perhaps I should be saying "_organized_" religion to better get my point across.


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## Live True

apologies, Bill...just realized I kinda assisted in hijacking the thread...SAWRY...

and now back to our regular programming......


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## Live True

celtic_crippler said:


> Further back-thread I said I find spritual people are most often of better character. Perhaps I should be saying "_organized_" religion to better get my point across.


 
I'm not completely disagreeing with you, as I'm not a fan of organized religion myself...but I think the real fault lies in those folks who seek comfort, belonging, and direction above thier seeking thier own minds and directing thier own lives. sheeople....baaaaadd....

I think the point I was trying to make...is that faith is not all bad...as you state...and sometimes the "organized" part can create some beautiful things....


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## MA-Caver

Religion is one thing... human rights violations is another. Unfortunately many of the aforementioned is done in the name of religion. 
Yet who are we to judge? 
Would we not be just as incensed if they came over to our land(s) en massed, armed and overwhelming in firepower and such and told us everything we were taught while growing up is WRONG? Our faith, our government, our judicial system, etc. 
Evil, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder. 
We are taught that the painting of The Birth of Venus by Sandro Botticelli is a beautiful thing, yet there are those who would burn such a painting because of the nudity represented within... and they don't HAVE to be Muslim at all. 
We decry child sex with an adult as evil yet in Thailand it's perfectly legal. Are we doing anything with them... going to go to war with them... of course not... what does Thailand has to offer to us? Nothing that the powers that be could use (or make a profit for). If Thailand had a huge underground reservoir of oil or gold or whatever is of intrinsic value then yeah we'd be hearing more about it and be over there to make things right! But since they don't, ehh, leave them alone as long as they don't bring it over here... right? 

So we're given stories of *these* particular atrocities in *those* lands as propaganda so to make us be disgusted with them, hate them and be more willing to go fight them in a grand scheme to make things right when the* bottom line* is to seize the oil (read: $$$) that is there.


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## KELLYG

I think that most of the Iran's problem has nothing to do with religion or sex but power.  Obtaining power and keeping power is very difficult. Keeping  people frightened by using what ever method necessary is one of the most effective methods of control.  If females are taken out of the power equation then the people in control are only responsible for keeping 1/2 of the population in line.  If 1/2 of the population is automatically deemed superior to the other 1/2 then every one has someone to push around, except for the women of course.  If everyone's attention is directed in and among themselves then the powers at be can do what ever they want to without worry.


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## MA-Caver

KELLYG said:


> I think that most of the Iran's problem has nothing to do with religion or sex but power.  Obtaining power and keeping power is very difficult. Keeping  people frightened by using what ever method necessary is one of the most effective methods of control.  If females are taken out of the power equation then the people in control are only responsible for keeping 1/2 of the population in line.  If 1/2 of the population is automatically deemed superior to the other 1/2 then every one has someone to push around, except for the women of course.  If everyone's attention is directed in and among themselves then the powers at be can do what ever they want to without worry.


I would think that as well. We saw how strongly the suffragette movement here in the states (and over the pond) affected/changed how women are treated in this country and then later with civil rights and then the harassment laws which protect and equalize women even further. 
Iran is going through changes whether they want to or not. A woman is martyred there being shot during the political debacle they experienced a month or so ago.  
That will affect changes within and as I've always noticed throughout history (via reading) that an oppressed people will rise up against their oppressors sooner or later. All we got to do is sit back and let it happen (to them) and take advantage of the changes as they occur instead of spending our own blood trying to FORCE those changes upon them. 
Same with Somalia and the other African countries that have oppressive leaders... they don't live forever and the people will rise up once they're sick and tired of being sick and tired. Who are we to affect the natural course of a country's history? Lets worry about OUR own for a change.


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## Andrew Green

CoryKS said:


> I see where you're coming from here, but I think you're blaming the gun for killing people rather than the person wielding it.



Well... weapons in war do have a considerable effect on the ability to wage it.  Armies on foot wielding swords and bows do considerably less damage then a full out war with modern weapons which can destroy entire cities.

Apart from weapons you also need people to fight, religion gives the people that motivation.  Religion might not have been the "reason" for many wars, the reason more likely being resources or territory, but it has provided the justification, and given many soldiers the ability to kill other humans.



CoryKS said:


> I consider communism to be a religion.  It reveres the state rather than a deity, but the trappings are essentially the same.  Eric Hoffer wrote a fascinating book called The True Believer, which discusses the traits of mass movements and the reasons why people join them.  Highly recommended.



Communism is not a religion, it is a economic system.  It is no more a religion then the American system of capitalism.  It may fuel a similar "this is THE way" attitude in people, but it is not a religion.


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## Andrew Green

KELLYG said:


> I think that most of the Iran's problem has nothing to do with religion or sex but power.  Obtaining power and keeping power is very difficult. Keeping  people frightened by using what ever method necessary is one of the most effective methods of control.  If females are taken out of the power equation then the people in control are only responsible for keeping 1/2 of the population in line.  If 1/2 of the population is automatically deemed superior to the other 1/2 then every one has someone to push around, except for the women of course.  If everyone's attention is directed in and among themselves then the powers at be can do what ever they want to without worry.




Sounds similar to other Abrahamic religions for most of their history.

Power is always the issue, but they are using religion as the tool to maintain it.  Without that tool, it would be a lot harder to maintain that level of control.


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## KELLYG

I agree with you Mcaver.  But what complicates this all the more is that our people in power want what there people in power have ie. Oil.  Us wanting to interfere in there natural progression of there country is not us wanting to help bring about positive change in the lives of women but us trying to obtain power over the Oil that grants us more power in the long run.  Remember By Whatever Means Necessary.  I by no means am suggesting that treating women as despicable as they do in Iran or other countries is O.K. But if our main goal is there oil the just come out and say so.  Then we can discuss that. I don't like being manipulated like we were in Iraq and their weapons of mass destruction.


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## Tez3

celtic_crippler said:


> Sorry...don't mean to come off that way. Religion is the tool, yes I recognize that. But it's a dangerous tool because people use it to tap into other's emotions, hopes, and spirituality to further an agenda. When you control someone's faith they'll believe and do what ever you say.
> 
> 
> 
> They're actually Greek Orthodox I believe? But anyway, Stalin outlawed "religion" because he didn't want any competition...the "state" was the new "religion." ...a rose by any other name still stinks...lol


 
Russian Orthodox, similiar style but different.
 My concern is that by blaming 'religion' we excuse the people committing the atrocities by saying it's religion that's doing it. Frankly the people who could do this, will, regardless of what they say they believe in. If you can torture someone there is something fundamentally wrong with you that you can hurt another human being regardless of whether you have a religion or not.


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## Archangel M

I agree Tez...religion is a justification for the behavior.


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## MA-Caver

KELLYG said:


> I agree with you Mcaver.  But what complicates this all the more is that our people in power want what there people in power have ie. Oil.  Us wanting to interfere in there natural progression of there country is not us wanting to help bring about positive change in the lives of women but us trying to obtain power over the Oil that grants us more power in the long run.  Remember By Whatever Means Necessary.  I by no means am suggesting that treating women as despicable as they do in Iran or other countries is O.K. But if our main goal is there oil the just come out and say so.  Then we can discuss that. I don't like being manipulated like we were in Iraq and their weapons of mass destruction.


Well that's the whole kicker isn't it? We were manipulated into that war and we were manipulated into Vietnam and WWII AND WWI. The Gulf Of Tonkin Incident was probably a staged incident, we didn't want to get into WWII but knowledge of an impending attack and refusal to honestly negotiate with the Japanese threw us into that one, granted Germany probably would've started something with us and was trying to provoke us by having hunter-subs prowling our Atlantic coastline but by and large the PEOPLE didn't want to get into it, inspite of being in the last years of a depression. Yet we did. As with the sinking of the Lusitania (where just enough Americans were killed to anger us), prior to our entry into the so called "War to End All Wars"  
If the powers that be want another war and one with Iran then they'll do something (behind the curtains) to provoke Iran (via sanctions or whatever) to attack us and bing bang boom there we are. Notice how we're not really getting all uptight about North Korea and their so called nuclear program... lots of sword rattling to be sure but no real (present) demonization of the N. Koreans because (again) they got nothing valuable to offer to us... *ahem* to the powers that be. 

Way off topic I think... probably deserves a thread of it's own anyway... 

How others act by their religion I think personally is none of our damned business. If we want to protest something then let it be the violation of basic human rights of which we all share equally as residents of this planet.


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## Tez3

MA-Caver said:


> Religion is one thing... human rights violations is another. Unfortunately many of the aforementioned is done in the name of religion.
> Yet who are we to judge?
> Would we not be just as incensed if they came over to our land(s) en massed, armed and overwhelming in firepower and such and told us everything we were taught while growing up is WRONG? Our faith, our government, our judicial system, etc.
> Evil, just as beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
> We are taught that the painting of The Birth of Venus by Sandro Botticelli is a beautiful thing, yet there are those who would burn such a painting because of the nudity represented within... and they don't HAVE to be Muslim at all.
> *We decry child sex with an adult as evil yet in Thailand it's perfectly legal.* *Are we doing anything with them... going to go to war with them... of course not... what does Thailand has to offer to us? Nothing that the powers that be could use (or make a profit for). If Thailand had a huge underground reservoir of oil or gold or whatever is of intrinsic value then yeah we'd be hearing more about it and be over there to make things right! But since they don't, ehh, leave them alone as long as they don't bring it over here... right? *
> 
> So we're given stories of *these* particular atrocities in *those* lands as propaganda so to make us be disgusted with them, hate them and be more willing to go fight them in a grand scheme to make things right when the* bottom line* is to seize the oil (read: $$$) that is there.


 

Sex with children in Thailand is very illegal! the age of consent is 15 but for sex workers it's 18! Some authorities may look the other way but peadophiles especially foreign ones are routinely caught and prosecuted.
http://www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000008275
Interpol work to catch as many sex tourists as they can and believe it or not they work with the Thai authorities.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/38183.stm
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JH23Ae01.html


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## MA-Caver

Tez3 said:


> Sex with children in Thailand is very illegal! the age of consent is 15 but for sex workers it's 18! Some authorities may look the other way but peadophiles especially foreign ones are routinely caught and prosecuted.
> http://www.pattayadailynews.com/shownews.php?IDNEWS=0000008275
> Interpol work to catch as many sex tourists as they can and believe it or not they work with the Thai authorities.
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/38183.stm
> http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/JH23Ae01.html


Ah, well then, I stand corrected :asian: ... when I had this information, admittedly it was about 10+ years ago... not realizing that times do indeed change. But still at 15! sheesh one imagines that there is a black market or an organized crime handling that group that still specifies the under 18 kids.


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## CoryKS

Andrew Green said:


> Well... weapons in war do have a considerable effect on the ability to wage it. Armies on foot wielding swords and bows do considerably less damage then a full out war with modern weapons which can destroy entire cities.
> 
> Apart from weapons you also need people to fight, religion gives the people that motivation. Religion might not have been the "reason" for many wars, the reason more likely being resources or territory, but it has provided the justification, and given many soldiers the ability to kill other humans.


 
The effect of weapons on the ability to wage war does not make them the object of blame for their use.  Religion does not give motivation.  _People_ give motivation, and religion is one of the tools they use to do that.  



Andrew Green said:


> Communism is not a religion, it is a economic system. It is no more a religion then the American system of capitalism. It may fuel a similar "this is THE way" attitude in people, but it is not a religion.


 
Communism is to economic systems what creationism is to science.  It does not work, it cannot work, and had been proven not to work.  Therefore, communism is a religion because those who accept it do so based on nothing but blind faith that it will work.


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## David43515

Nothing in my life has ever brought more joy to me than religion. Every good choice I have ever made has been influenced by the teachings of my religion. Every wonderful thing I have in my life (my wife, my children, close friends I wouldn`t have met any other way,my job as a teacher, and more things than I could ever count) came to me through following my religion.

          I can`t help but be sad that so many of you have a bad image of religion, or have had bad experiances through it. Bad or misguided people use God to try and justify the evil they do in the worl. I can`t deny that. But they use science, patriotism, intelecualism and rhetoric as well. For them, religion is just another tool in the box. It`s shameful. But please don`t confuse the messenger with the message.

        "Pure religion and undefiled before God is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in thier affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."       James 1:27

         I`m not trying to convert or convince anyone. But don`t forget that religion has also had amazing influence on man to do good, to rise above the common and the petty, and to learn to embrace what is noble in him.


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## Ken Morgan

David43515 said:


> Nothing in my life has ever brought more joy to me than religion. Every good choice I have ever made has been influenced by the teachings of my religion. Every wonderful thing I have in my life (my wife, my children, close friends I wouldn`t have met any other way,my job as a teacher, and more things than I could ever count) came to me through following my religion.
> 
> I can`t help but be sad that so many of you have a bad image of religion, or have had bad experiances through it. Bad or misguided people use God to try and justify the evil they do in the worl. I can`t deny that. But they use science, patriotism, intelecualism and rhetoric as well. For them, religion is just another tool in the box. It`s shameful. But please don`t confuse the messenger with the message.
> 
> "Pure religion and undefiled before God is this, To visit the fatherless and the widows in thier affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world." James 1:27
> 
> I`m not trying to convert or convince anyone. But don`t forget that religion has also had amazing influence on man to do good, to rise above the common and the petty, and to learn to embrace what is noble in him.


 
Nice post.

Religion has a very bad history. It was and is used to keep the masses down, help the rich get richer, murder, rape and as justification for more wars then I can count.

Its true that sometimes religion has been an amazing influence on man to do good, but then again you dont need religion to do good works. Anybody can do good works. I know plenty of atheists who volunteer and give back to their communities.

It would be sad to think that religious people are good, or do good things because a god is watching, and they will be rewarded in another life. Everybody should be doing good works because it helps our communities.

If religion works for you great, Im happy for you. Thank you for not trying to convert anyone. Its most annoying when folks try.


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## CoryKS

To be fair, that whole "let's abolish slavery" thing started with a couple of guys in England who decided to shove their religion down everybody's throat. Just a thought.


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## Andrew Green

CoryKS said:


> The effect of weapons on the ability to wage war does not make them the object of blame for their use.  Religion does not give motivation.  _People_ give motivation, and religion is one of the tools they use to do that.



Isn't that sort of like saying Meth isn't bad, pimps are bad for getting prostitutes addicted and dependent?



> Communism is to economic systems what creationism is to science.  It does not work, it cannot work, and had been proven not to work.  Therefore, communism is a religion because those who accept it do so based on nothing but blind faith that it will work.



So pure communism is sort of like pure capitalism then?


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## Tez3

MA-Caver said:


> Ah, well then, I stand corrected :asian: ... when I had this information, admittedly it was about 10+ years ago... not realizing that times do indeed change. But still at 15! sheesh one imagines that there is a black market or an organized crime handling that group that still specifies the under 18 kids.


 
15 is an average age around the world, it's 16 in the UK.

Ken, it is annoying and downright insulting sometimes when people try to convert you! I seem to attract people who want me to be 'saved' lol. Does my head in!


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## celtic_crippler

No "thing", ideology or otherwise, is wholely good or evil. At the root is people and how they use it. It just so happens that more people have seemingly used religion to advance their own agendas instead of focusing on advancing the teachings of that relgion that relate to the betterment of mankind. 

For example: The period known as the Christian Reformation saw more bloodshed than any other period in man's history. The only event that compares is WWII and that's only because we dropped two nukes on Japan. 

Relgious organizations do good works, especially at the community level. They have a positive impact on thousands of lives. Behind the good and the bad are the people running the show and their intentions but the thing about religion, and this could be said of political parties as well, is that they appeal to one's core values, a need to "belong", and so forth...to the point where "faith" overrides "rational thought." Call it brain washing, call it voo-doo...whatever... but there's something dangerous about large numbers of people devoid of logic blindly following fanatical rhetoric.


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## Ken Morgan

CoryKS said:


> To be fair, that whole "let's abolish slavery" thing started with a couple of guys in England who decided to shove their religion down everybody's throat. Just a thought.


 
I've never said some good things haven't come religion or religious people.

But you don't need to be religious to do good things. Nor do you need to be religious to commit some terrible acts.


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## Bruno@MT

searcher said:


> And everyone gives me a hard time about wanting to use some of our nuclear arsenal on such people.
> 
> 
> I understand that we will have some colateral damage and that cannot be avoided, but it cannot be worse then what the girls are going through.
> 
> 
> And yes, they want us dead.    But we will sit around and do nothing while they perform these atrocities and kill off our people.    When will this country wake up and see how the world is?    It is time for the West to take a stand and do something.
> 
> 
> *rant off*




Who is this 'They' you want to nuke?
The minority in power? The near majority who wanted a more progressive president? or the joe in the street who has no measurable influence on daily life?

And taking a stand? How? Iran is a sovereign country and short of invading it, what are you going to do?
Yes, if this is true, it is a disgrace, but that does not mean that we (the west) should just nuke entire countries because of it.

EDIT: just in case anyone should think I condone this sort of thing: I don't.
However, someone being casual about killing a million people (of which only a handful are the actual targets) with a thermonuclear weapon is not a solution.


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## CoryKS

Andrew Green said:


> Isn't that sort of like saying Meth isn't bad, pimps are bad for getting prostitutes addicted and dependent?


 
By Jove, I think he's got it!  The thing about your example is, we need to be clear on what we mean by "bad".  Meth can be said to be bad as in "bad for you", but not bad in the moral sense because it is doesn't actually do anything but sit there.  If meth chased you down a dark alley and injected itself into your bloodstream, then it would be bad.  And yes, pimps are bad.  



Andrew Green said:


> So pure communism is sort of like pure capitalism then?


 
I dunno, I'd have to know what your criteria for failure were.  Capitalism allows for individual success or failure, so if one were to claim that capitalism were a failure because there are a minority of people for whom it doesn't work, I'd have to disagree.  It's not like communism where everybody rises or falls together.


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## CoryKS

Ken Morgan said:


> I've never said some good things haven't come religion or religious people.
> 
> But you don't need to be religious to do good things. Nor do you need to be religious to commit some terrible acts.


 
I know you didn't.  In fact, you gave a passing nod to some of the good things it has done after you listed the many horrors that, to your mind, it should be blamed for.  

And no, you don't need to be religious to do good or bad things.  The abolition example wasn't intended to show that religion is necessarily good.  The point was that the leaders of the movement drew their inspiration from the doctrine of their religion (unintended consequence, perhaps), and managed to gain traction because they presented their argument in religious terms to those who shared their beliefs.  In effect, they used religion as a tool to lead large numbers of people to their desired goal.  That ability is a feature rather than a bug, IMO.  If some people use it for bad purposes, then those particular instances should be addressed rather than assaulting the concept of religion itself.


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## arnisador

David43515 said:


> Nothing in my life has ever brought more joy to me than religion.



If it's good for you, that's great!



> For them, religion is just another tool in the box.



Well, I'm not sure it's _just_ another tool...how many wars have really been fought in the name of science? Religion seems to access a particularly fervent aspect of the brain. Scientists don't try to convert people to scientivism the way the religious try to convert people.



> But don`t forget that religion has also had amazing influence on man to do good, to rise above the common and the petty, and to learn to embrace what is noble in him.



For certain individual men, perhaps. On the group level, I see mostly the bad, excepting possibly the Buddhists.



Ken Morgan said:


> Thank you for not trying to convert anyone. Its most annoying when folks try.



Yes, thanks!



CoryKS said:


> To be fair, that whole "let's abolish slavery" thing started with a couple of guys in England who decided to shove their religion down everybody's throat.



Of course, looking at the central role played by religion in justifying the enslavement of non-Christian races in the first place...this isn't quite as impressive as it seems at first.


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## Ken Morgan

Tez3 said:


> Ken, it is annoying and downright insulting sometimes when people try to convert you! I seem to attract people who want me to be 'saved' lol. Does my head in!


 
Yeah, same problem on this side of the ocean. They feel like there is something wrong with you and if you would just believe in the invisable man in the sky, you'd be ok. Its for your own good after all.


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## CoryKS

arnisador said:


> Of course, looking at the central role played by religion in justifying the enslavement of non-Christian races in the first place...this isn't quite as impressive as it seems at first.


 
Slavery needed no such justification.  It predates the major religions, and the cultures that went on to develop those religions were steeped in it and considered it normal.  For those who consider their texts to be the word of God, it may be a gross oversight not to have denounced what we today see as an evil institution.  For those of us who consider religion to be a codification of a culture's mores, it's not that surprising.  What _is_ fascinating to me is how a text written thousands of years ago at a time when slavery was commonplace, and which seems to at least implicitly condone it, could be interpreted in such a way that today we feel the revulsion that we do wrt slavery.  It's worthwhile to keep in mind that this feeling is not universal - slavery continues to this day in Africa, the Middle East and other parts of the world.


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## Ken Morgan

CoryKS said:


> I know you didn't. In fact, you gave a passing nod to some of the good things it has done after you listed the many horrors that, to your mind, it should be blamed for.
> 
> And no, you don't need to be religious to do good or bad things. The abolition example wasn't intended to show that religion is necessarily good. The point was that the leaders of the movement drew their inspiration from the doctrine of their religion (unintended consequence, perhaps), and managed to gain traction because they presented their argument in religious terms to those who shared their beliefs. In effect, they used religion as a tool to lead large numbers of people to their desired goal. That ability is a feature rather than a bug, IMO. If some people use it for bad purposes, then those particular instances should be addressed rather than assaulting the concept of religion itself.


 

Sorry, but Im reasonably certain that there were more then two leaders of the abolitionist movement. (Im assuming ur talking about the US movement, and not the UK one?) Funny but it can be argued that it was the superiority of ones religion, and not just $$, that started the whole slave thing to begin with, stretching back thousands of years. We find it distasteful the thought of slavery today, but there are 100s of thousands of slaves still around, a whole system propagated by many religious people. 

The main question that arises is of course where does morality come from? Religious people will say it comes from god, but I would argue that religion gets its morality from us. To say that without religion we would be no better than animals is insulting.


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## arnisador

Economics drove the European slave trade in Africa, but organized Christianity was what allowed those doing it to overcome their basic human morality and actually engage in this enterprise. The church justified slavery on the grounds that the Africans were inferior and non-believers; many in the U.S. held to the belief that the Africans' enslavement was a necessary step to their religious salvation by comparing it to the Jews' time in Egypt.

The Wikipedia article has info. on it:

Numerous passages in the Bible have historically been used by pro-slavery advocates to support the practice as valid for their societies.

...remained well into the Middle Ages and beyond. Most Christian figures in that early period, such as Augustine of Hippo, supported continuing slavery...

 Nearly all Christian leaders before the late 17th century regarded slavery as consistent with Christian theology...

For example, the evangelical Protestant Society for the Propagation of the Gospel in Foreign Parts owned the Codrington Plantation, in Barbados, containing several hundred slaves; all slaves in the plantation were branded on their chests, using the traditional red hot iron, with the word Society, to signify their ownership by the Christian organisation.

By the Middle Ages, the most powerful and influential Christian voices were in favour of slavery.

Throughout Europe and the United States, Christians, usually from 'un-institutional' Christian faith movements, not directly connected with traditional state churches, or "non-conformist" believers within established churches, were to be found at the forefront of the abolitionist movements.

 in the slave states of the United States, where the justification switched from religion (the slaves are heathens) to race (Africans are the descendants of Ham); indeed, in 1667, Virginia's assembly enacted a bill declaring that baptism did not grant freedom to slaves. The opposition to the U.S. Civil Rights movement in the 20th century was founded in part on the same religious ideas that had been used to justify slavery in the 19th century.

introduction of Catholic Spanish colonies to the Americas resulted in forced conversions and slavery to the indigenous peoples living there. Some priests, such as Father Bartolomé de las Casas worked to protect Americans from slavery, although Casas' works may have helped to inspire the African slave trade.

From elsewhere at WP:

In 1452, Pope Nicholas V issued the papal bull Dum Diversas, granting Afonso V of Portugal the right to reduce any "Saracens, pagans and any other unbelievers" to hereditary slavery. This approval of slavery was reaffirmed and extended in his Romanus Pontifex bull of 1455. These papal bulls came to serve as a justification for the subsequent era of slave trade and European colonialism.

The Southern Baptist Convention formed on the premise that the Bible sanctions slavery and that it was acceptable for Christians to own slaves.

Robert E. Lee: "The blacks are immeasurably better off here than in Africa, morally, socially & physically. The painful discipline they are undergoing, is necessary for their instruction as a race, & I hope will prepare & lead them to better things. How long their subjugation may be necessary is known & ordered by a wise Merciful Providence."

An academic's analysis of that latter: "This [letter] was the prevailing view among most religious people of Lee's class in the border states. They believed that slavery existed because God willed it and they thought it would end when God so ruled. The time and the means were not theirs to decide, conscious though they were of the ill-effects of Negro slavery on both races. Lee shared these convictions of his neighbors"

It's true that there were individual Christians and some smaller Christian groups that opposed slavery, but the organized religion actively participated in promoting and enabling slavery in the U.S.

It's a similar mindset reported in the original post, dealing with another Abrahamic religion. The organized religion of Islam is used to justify the rape and murder of children by redefining the rape as a marital act and the murder as a justified execution...and substituting the religion's twisted ethics for the basic human morality of the people there.

Religion is what's needed, and used, to convince good people to do bad things:

_Good people can do good and bad people can do evil. But for good people to do evil -- that takes religion_. -Steven Weinberg


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## David43515

Since this thread has taken such a wide turn away from the way it started, and has become a place for people to voice thier displeasure with religion, I`d like to share with you an illistration I read recently.

Picture a farmer driving a large open-bed truck filled with sugar beets en route to the sugar refinery. As the farmer drives along a bumpy dirty road, some of the sugar beets bounce from the truck and are strewn along the roadside. When he realizes he has lost some of the beets, he instructs his helpers, "There is just as much sugar in those which have slipped off. Let`s go back and get them." 

I would argue that it is religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) that helps us to see all men as brothers, as equals, as friends that need our support and love. That it is through religion that men can most fully understand the value of thier fellow men, and because they understand, truly begin to care about those around them. That is a teaching that is almost universal among people of faith.Those who look down on others and seek to selfishly use them can`t be said to have any real understanding of thier religion. Sadly, they may try to wrap themselves in the cloak of religion to try and justify thier selfishness, predudice, and cruelty, but they are a minority. A man can be kind and loving to those he meets without knowing anything of religion. But no man can really believe in religion without being kind and loving to those he meets.

"Behold I tell you these things that ye may learn wisdom; That ye may learn that when ye are in the service of your fellow beings ye are only in the service of your God." Mosiah 2:17 (Book of Mormon)


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## David43515

I grew up in a Christian family in a city with a good sized Muslim and Hindu community, so I was lucky to know a few people from lots of faiths. I`ve known very devout Muslims who were ashamed of the radicals who killedinnocents  in the name of thier religion. I`ve known Christians who shudder at the bombing of abortion clinics and the murder of the doctors who work in them. And I`ve seen a Jewish concentration camp survivor who had every reason to hate  show forgivness to the people who took so much from him.

        Most religous people are no different than the people all around you every day. They have thier faults and thier weaknesses, but they`re just people with common sense who try thier best to do what`s right. They aren`t filled with hate or selfiness any more than the rest of the population. When you begin criticizing all of them with bold strokes, you`re saying the same thing about your friends and family members, the people you work with and see in the grocery store or in the pub down the street. Are they all evil bastards out to manipulate the rest of society for thier own profit and pleasure? Of course not. So lets stop the faith bashing.


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## Ken Morgan

David43515 said:


> I grew up in a Christian family in a city with a good sized Muslim and Hindu community, so I was lucky to know a few people from lots of faiths. I`ve known very devout Muslims who were ashamed of the radicals who killedinnocents in the name of thier religion. I`ve known Christians who shudder at the bombing of abortion clinics and the murder of the doctors who work in them. And I`ve seen a Jewish concentration camp survivor who had every reason to hate show forgivness to the people who took so much from him.
> 
> Most religous people are no different than the people all around you every day. They have thier faults and thier weaknesses, but they`re just people with common sense who try thier best to do what`s right. They aren`t filled with hate or selfiness any more than the rest of the population. When you begin criticizing all of them with bold strokes, you`re saying the same thing about your friends and family members, the people you work with and see in the grocery store or in the pub down the street. Are they all evil bastards out to manipulate the rest of society for thier own profit and pleasure? Of course not. So lets stop the faith bashing.


 

Why? Because it hurts your feelings? I see countries bashed, political parties bashed and various MA bashed on this forum. Why does religion get a bi? 

No one is bashing religion per say, but we are expression our dissatisfaction with all archaic (and modern for that matter), belief systems. This dissatisfaction has been generated by centuries of abuse on mankind, and many of us have had enough sitting on our hands accepting the magical man in the sky, simply because our parents, grandparents, that nice pastor fellow all say it is true. Who all say if you dont believe there is something inherently wrong with you and you are going to hell.

Look, if you want to follow religion, be my guest, have fun, hope it helps you through life, but do not force it on me, the public, or proclaim that religion is this untarnished vehicle for good.

 When the catholic church apologizes for diddling little boys, when the muslims apologize for killing people, when the hindus apologize for the caste system, when the jehovahs apologize for letting little children die because they refuse blood transfusions, then, and only then, does religion have the right to come here are claim moral superiority!


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## arnisador

David43515 said:


> I would argue that it is religion (whether Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, etc.) that helps us to see all men as brothers, as equals, as friends that need our support and love.



Well...on an organized level it has just the opposite effect, doesn't it? Jews vs. Muslims in the Mid-East, Muslims vs. Christian America...religion foments wars and adds fuel to the fire.

I would say that modern genetics is much better for what you describe above. It _proves_ that the differences are minor.



David43515 said:


> They aren`t filled with hate or selfiness any more than the rest of the population.



The basic Christian belief is that all of those who are not Christians will be tortured for eternity in burning lakes of fire. That's hateful. Some Christians reject that. That's an improvement. But Christianity, like most religions, is at its heart based on exclusivity and the persecution of those who think and believe differently. I find that pretty hateful, as a belief system.


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