# Invalidation



## donald (Feb 1, 2002)

*I went to the "Chapel site", and saw something that surprised me! In the blackbelt listings. They have a guy listed, but next to his name theres a little one of these >. When I scrolled down to see what > signified. The caption said, bb declared invalid by Jeff Speakman!!! Am I understanding this correctly? Did this person have their blackbelt nullified by Jeff(AKKS)Speakman? Are Mr. Chapel's, and Mr.Speakman's schools united? I just found it odd. That they would list a guy, and then deny him in the same breath. That is assuming Mr.Chapel has agreed with the "invalidation" of this person? Is blackbelt invalidation common in some systems? I have never heard of it in American/Tracy kenpo before.   *


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 1, 2002)

I dont know how common it is but on the tracy website there is someone listed by the name of Geroge A. Elmer Jr. under the Sandan (3rd degree BB) section of the tracy family tree that states that he has had his rank revoked, I dont know why. but it is listed clear as day, if you would like to see it here is the web address.  

http://www.tracyskarate.com/Tracytree/SandanALL.htm

I have been meaning to ask my instructor about this, but keep forgetting, and i dont even know if hell tell me to begin with.

:shrug:


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## Kirk (Feb 1, 2002)

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but if I were to get a b.b. in P.K., I
could just flat out open a school, and call it American Kenpo, 
Parker Kenpo, etc.  I could give full credit to my lineage, and I 
wouldn't have to pay a dime to anyone.  But when studying
Tracy kenpo, I have to pay fees, memberships, etc, and sign
a contract agreeing not to open in specific areas, etc.
I betcha he opened up a competing dojo/kwoon/school/whatever
with another Tracy Kenpoist .. but that is MY OWN GUESS, I didn't
get it from anyone.  Check out his time line:



MR GEORGE A ELMER JR.             

1975-IST DEGREE BLACK BELT (tracy's kenpo)

1980-2ND DEGREE BLACK BELT (ed parker's kenpo)

1984- 3RD DEGREE BLACK BELT (tracy's kenpo)

1986- 4TH DEGREE BLACK BELT (a.c.k.k.s.)

1990-5TH DEGREE BLACK BELT (a.c.k.k.s.)

1994-6TH DEGREE BLACK BELT (a.c.k.k.s.)

1999-7TH DEGREE BLACK BELT (a.c.k.k.s.) 

 References:

http://www.ackks.com/belt rank.htm

http://www.ackks.com/


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 1, 2002)

Youre probably right, But theres no way to know for sure, I've seen that site before, actually you found it before when i was trying to find out the answer. Regardless, Its a situation where a BB has been deemed invalid, dont get me wrong it dosent really matter at all, you can take a belt or certification away, but you can never take away someones knowledge, and what they have learned, The only problem I have with the guy is how often hes being promoted (or promoting himself) He promoted himslef to 4th BB 2 years after he recieved his 3rd from tracy, tracy requirements are at least 3-4 years as 3rd degree, from 4th to 5th he waited 4 years, also seems short, same thing from 5th to 6th, 4 years,  now IMO 4 years between 5th and 6th is just way too short. I'll try to remeber to ask my instructor, there may be something to it that we just dont know about.  :shrug:


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## Kirk (Feb 2, 2002)

> may be something to it that we just dont know about



I'll definitely go with that.  Apologies Nate, I didn't realize it was
you who queried this before, so I thought I was supplying the
same info to someone else.  

I'm very curious about this as well.  Would love to know the
story behind the whole thing.


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## GouRonin (Feb 2, 2002)

Jeff Speakman and Ron Chap'el do not belong to the same organization.

Ron Chap'el heads up the Martial Science University which can be found at:
http://maxpages.com/edparkerskenpo

And Jeff Speakman heads up the AKKS, American Kenpo Karate Systems which can be found at:
http://64.176.245.233/default.htm

The person in question had his belt nulified by Speakman and then was recognized by Chap'el as he joined the Chap'el lineage.

I do not believe you can invalidate rank. 

Remember, whatever you wear, you have to bear.


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## vincefuess (Feb 10, 2002)

Another point of consideration is that you really are not considered an instructor in AK until 3rd black.  That is the point when you have been introduced to all of the physical aspects of the art.

As far as rank revocation goes- it only matters to the one who revoked it.  They can't take knowledge out of your head.  If you act in a manner that a particular association doesn't like and they kick you out and revoke your status- big deal.  You always have what you learned.

Vince


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 18, 2002)

Vince, what was your source of information for this statement?


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## vincefuess (Feb 19, 2002)

The Hierarchy of black belt rank designations as described in INFINITE INSIGHTS INTO KENPO by Edmund K. Parker for one.  3rd Degree Black= Head Instructor.  Only a 3rd Black could recommend rank testing through 1st degree black, and though I wasn't ranked by the IKKA it is my understanding that the actual award of black belt and subsequent degrees had to be approved by a board of senior black belts, if not SGM Parker himself.

You are merely an assistant instructor if you cannot promote your student through 1st degree black, by definition.  The requirements vary a bit from association to association, but generally at lower rank levels (sub black) a student can only be promoted by someone at least two belt levels higher in rank, and that is subject to approval of a ranking officer.

Did you hear different somewhere?  Or are we splitting hairs on our own PERSONAL definitions of instructorship?  I guess someone COULD be a 1st degree black in AK, then change the name to FreddyBob's Dragontail Kenpo, start his own association, then promote himself to 10th degree (wait- that was supposed to be a joke!!).

Anyway- that is the way it was taught/ explained to me.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2002)

Black Belt Promotions or any other promotions for that matter depend greatly upon the organization and its Founders ideals.  There is a huge variation in this area.

Yes, In the Infiinite Insights Book 2, Chapter 2 pages 9 & 10 you will find the Black Belt Rank designations that Mr. Parker outlined however I am curious as to where you established the criteria per each rank........ I don't see the "powers"  or  "abilities" that one may acquire by the awarding of any of the ranks.  I'm just curious as to where you acquired your ideas.  

I studied directly with and was promoted to 3rd, 4th, and 5th Black Belt by Mr. Parker personally.  We have discussed this topic at length mainly because I was a studio owner with an average of 135 to 175 students, so promotions were many.  

What lineage do you come from?,  as this may have a great bearing on what you were instructed and taught by your immediate instructor.  We all know that different Instructors can and do at times change and adjust the norm one way or another.  As an example, I for one have my students do all techniques, forms, sets and all other material ~ left and right from day one, not all instructors do that..... so I can't press my personal requirements on your  students if I was asked to sit in on your testing....... unless you ask me to and understood where I was coming from.

According to the Original IKKA Constitution, Article VII, Section 7 - Promotions...............

"An instructor may award, or make recommendation for advancement, up to and including one rank below the rank he then holds if he is a 2nd Degree Black Belt or above.  A 1st Degree Black Belt can only promote to the lowest brown belt grade without permission from his instructor or a Black Belt Committee".

Prior to Mr. Parker's passing he modified this Section so that He personally could observe all Brown and in particular  ALL the Black promotions to try to maintain a greater quality control ......... now were there  exceptions  to that rule for some individuals........ YES, but this was his protocol till the end.  :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2002)

Now you may have read into the following pledge what you are talking about as well.........

1ST BLACK BELT PLEDGE 

I HOLD THAT MY TIME AND MY SKILL ARE THE ASSETS TO MY PROFESSION, ASSETS WHICH GROW IN VALUE AS I PROGRESS IN KENPO, UNTIL AS A .........

THIRD DEGREE BLACK BELT I STAND AS A FULLY QUALIFIED INSTRUCTOR.  

IT SHALL ALSO BE MY RESPONSIBILITY TO PROTECT ANY INDIVIDUALS WHO WOULD TRY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF PERSONAL WEAKNESSES TO DIVEST THE GULLIBLE INTO UNPROFITABLE PATHS.  TO PRESERVE THE SACRED THINGS, GOD, FAMILY, AND COUNTRY, I PLEDGE MY ALL. 

Third is considered Head Instructor (HI) and given full privlidges, but once again these have changed today depending upon which organization you belong to.  

This was just a history lesson to be a little informative and helpful........   
:asian:


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## vincefuess (Feb 20, 2002)

Very interesting info indeed!

I was taught the art of American Kenpo under Rick Fowler in Irving, Texas.  Mr. Fowler is a 6th degree black under Huk Planas.  Sadly, by the time I was really active in my training SGM Parker had already passed away and Mr. Fowler developed the Southwest Kenpo Karate Association (SWKKA) (I believe with the help of Mr. Planas at the time, though I think he is no longer involved).  The powers of the various belt ranks were outlined in the bylaws of the SWKKA, which seem to me to be very similar, if not exactly like the bylaws if the IKKA.  It was a bit of a mute point at our school, because any one of the black belt staff could and did promote colored belt ranks under black, but NO rank over brown was awarded by anyone but Mr. Fowler.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 20, 2002)

Yes, I understand they had a falling out a few years ago.  

I once did a seminar at Ricks about 13 years ago.
:asian:


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## vincefuess (Feb 20, 2002)

All I have heard is rumors as to why they parted ways, and it happened about the same time I parted ways with Sifu Fowler.  There are no hard feelings, and I respect Mr. Fowler.  I moved away, and it is no longer convenient for me to train with him.  He is an excellent instructor and a stellar Kenpo artist.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 20, 2002)

Cool, who do you train with now?
:asian:


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## Darren (Aug 17, 2022)

vincefuess said:


> Very interesting info indeed!
> 
> I was taught the art of American Kenpo under Rick Fowler in Irving, Texas.  Mr. Fowler is a 6th degree black under Huk Planas.  Sadly, by the time I was really active in my training SGM Parker had already passed away and Mr. Fowler developed the Southwest Kenpo Karate Association (SWKKA) (I believe with the help of Mr. Planas at the time, though I think he is no longer involved).  The powers of the various belt ranks were outlined in the bylaws of the SWKKA, which seem to me to be very similar, if not exactly like the bylaws if the IKKA.  It was a bit of a mute point at our school, because any one of the black belt staff could and did promote colored belt ranks under black, but NO rank over brown was awarded by anyone but Mr. Fowler.


What years did you train under Sufi Fowler? I was there from 1989-1993. Thank you!


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## Gentle Fist (Aug 17, 2022)

Darren said:


> What years did you train under Sufi Fowler? I was there from 1989-1993. Thank you!


Holy necro-thread… this was posted over 20 years ago 😉


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## Darren (Aug 18, 2022)

Gentle Fist said:


> Holy necro-thread… this was posted over 20 years ago 😉


Got to pay more attention to the dates!!! Thank you!!!!!!


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