# Push Daggers



## SFC JeffJ

What do you think of these?

What are the pro's and con's?


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## terryl965

I personally love them, I own about twenty or so. Now about pro's and con's I have no answer for mine are for my collection sorry.
Terry


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## KenpoTex

I've got one and have experimented with carrying it. However, I haven't decided whether it's going to be a part of my EDC yet.

Pro's: 
-very intuitive...just punch. To me, this makes them ideally suited for weapon-retention situations because you can use them very effectively with your "off hand." Many people, myself included unfortunately, don't practice their knife work as much with their off hand. This knife eliminates that concern. Just draw and start throwing jabs.

-it's very efficient; lots of damage with minimal exertion

Con's: 
-they're very task specific. The same qualities that make them very easy to use, also limit your options when using them. In other words, they're no good for anything other than punching at someone.

-they're not legal in many places. Many places don't allow fixed blades (which these are). If they do allow fixed blades, many places don't allow double-edged knives (which most of these are). And some places specifically prohibit push-daggers (so you'd be screwed anyway ).


So what do we have, 2 pro's and 2 Con's? I guess my overall take on the push dagger is that they're a very effective and formidable weapon. If you are legally able to carry one it would make a good addition to your loadout. However, due to it's lack of versatility, I would carry it in addition to another knife.


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## SFC JeffJ

Thanks for your very well put opinion KenpoTex.

Luckily where I am, none of those legal issues come up.

Jeff


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## Brian R. VanCise

From a tactical perspective it is hard to beat having a push dagger as your bladed weapon of choice.  They are excellent for slashing, cutting, thrusting and of course they have incredible penetration power.  They are also very, very hard to disarm and that makes them an ideal tool for use in a violent encounter.  

From a legal perspective you are going to be crucified if you ever have to use one except in a very dire home defense situation.  Unfortunately they have a bad reputation as a weapon of thugs, low lifes, gamblers and crimnals.  They are also illegal almost everywhere.

Bottom line : I love them.  Train almost daily with some of mine and consider them a very effective home defensive tool.  However, I would hate to use one of them and have the lawyer's eat me alive. (but to save my life or my family there would be no question about using one of them)

I have a list of where I place them mentally in order of use if someone were to invade my house and the push dagger is only after shotgun, handgun on that list.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey KenpoTex, I have one of those in my collection as well.  Very effective and very well made.  You also have a good choice in watch as I have the same one as well.


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## KenpoTex

JeffJ said:


> Thanks for your very well put opinion KenpoTex.
> 
> Luckily where I am, none of those legal issues come up.
> 
> Jeff


Same for me, in Missouri with a CCW you can carry *any* knife except for a switchblade or a balisong.




			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Hey KenpoTex, I have one of those in my collection as well. Very effective and very well made. You also have a good choice in watch as I have the same one as well.


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## tshadowchaser

the last I heard push daggers where a felony to carry in most areas of the USA  ( they are considered a concealed weapon) I could be wrong
Personaly i like them


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## arnisador

Remember the belt buckle that conceals a push dagger? Looked like a good idea to me! But the issue of legalities is real. Make sure you know the law in your state if you choose to do this.

I like the retention aspects of this weapon...but, it's never really felt comfortable in my hand, to be frank.


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## SFC JeffJ

kenpotex said:


> Same for me, in Missouri with a CCW you can carry *any* knife except for a switchblade or a balisong.


Don't even need a CCW here to carry one.

Well, here it's just a carry permit, the concealed is optional.

Jeff


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## KenpoTex

JeffJ said:


> Don't even need a CCW here to carry one.
> 
> Well, here it's just a carry permit, the concealed is optional.
> 
> Jeff


Nice.  In MO, without a permit, you're restricted to a folder no more than 4" if it's concealed (you can "open carry" larger knives or fixed blades).


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## SFC JeffJ

kenpotex said:


> Nice.  In MO, without a permit, you're restricted to a folder no more than 4" if it's concealed (you can "open carry" larger knives or fixed blades).


Here in Indiana, there are not state laws restricting blade length or type.

The exceptions are automatic knives (assisted opening doesn't count) and it can't "shoot" the blade.

A few municipalities do have restrictions though, but most don't.

Jeff


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## SFC JeffJ

Love the new Avatar btw!


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## KenpoTex

JeffJ said:


> Love the new Avatar btw!


thanks


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## KenpoTex

Since we're talking about push-daggers, I just ran across this one it's pretty sweet (unfortunately it's also pretty pricey). It's made by Wilson Tactical and uses compact (officer's model) 1911 grip panels for handle scales. Somehow the idea of having the ability to have matching grips on your pistol and your knife is cool.
http://www.wilsontactical.com/1_mainframe.htm?about.shtml~main


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## Brian R. VanCise

That is nice albeit pricey.  There other one is nice as well but pricey also.
I do like the colt Steel with the Kraton grip.  There is no movement in the hand when thrusting through something. (In my experience)  I have had movement with other models.


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## SFC JeffJ

Nice looking knife, but overpriced, and I don't think I care for the angle of the grip.  I know they are trying to make it more 1911, but I don't think that grip angle would work for me for a push dagger.

Jeff


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## arnisador

Yeah, the angle caught my eye too. I'd have to feel it in my hand to know though.


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## KenpoTex

The cold-steel's are probably the best value for a carry knife and the kraton handle feels like it's fused to your hand.

I actually kinda like the grip angle on this one. I haven't handled one of these but I've handled others that share this design. The blade protrudes between your first and middle finger instead of between your middle and ring-finger. To me this makes it a little more "accurate" since most any of us with a karate/MA background are used to punching with the first two knuckles instead of with the middle two. It really comes down to personal preference.

Since I've been tossing out push-dagger porn, here's another one that's nice (but also expensive)




http://www.mercworx.com/detail.aspx?ID=28


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## highjumpman

Hi y'all! Here is an interesting one I came across. Its not a pure push dagger, but rather a "convertible".
The blade's position can be changed when depressing the lock on the back of the frame. I'ts not a quality make and not a beauty, especially in terms of blade polish, but the sharp blade keeps its position and the nature of the frame assures a good grip.

Two points to note: 1. In "push dagger mode", the blade points upwards, which will probalby have a noticable effect on the dagger's piercing quality.
2: I wouldn't want to switch blade position in the midst of combat...






http://www.flickr.com/photos/80382083@N00/262174084/






http://www.flickr.com/photos/80382083@N00/262174086/


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## Brian R. VanCise

I would not want any *non fixed* push dagger in my hand in a violent encounter.  Even with the most reliable lock in the world.  Just to much potential for some kind of malfunction and whoops there goes all of your fingers.


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## SFC JeffJ

Neat looking knife, but I don't see the need for a folding push dagger.  They are pretty compact to begin with.  Also gotta agree with Brian about the lock.

Jeff


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## arnisador

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would not want any *non fixed* push dagger in my hand in a violent encounter.  Even with the most reliable lock in the world.  Just to much potential for some kind of malfunction



My thought too. It looks neat but I wouldn't carry it. Still, I appreciate having had a chance to see what one looks like!


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## Mustafa

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would not want any *non fixed* push dagger in my hand in a violent encounter. Even with the most reliable lock in the world. Just to much potential for some kind of malfunction and whoops there goes all of your fingers.


I would want to agree on this one.
It cannot be rightly made if one part is made here and the other is there. However if it is one producent he will know how to make his toughts cooperate with his skill in the making.
That producer ... Like right now, we are making things that consists of many "different-ies", even if the main chief above them is one.

But that is different from if it is only one producer, then the quality is the same and other cant reduce it.

Me, i would like to test such as i never knew about them before now.
However i find a throwing knife equally efficient as a hand to hand combat knife, especially when you have several of them (combined by alot of practise). 
It is not so superiour by itself, when just one knife. Like Once armed with several i mean.

Of course i may be wrong, i have not experience with knives like you do.

edit; and i am thinking of my knives when i talk about this. Because blazing arrow can be thrown, used in hand to hand combat, and it has holes in it so i can make something longer with it.


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## KenpoTex

ref. the folding push-dagger.  I've never see this particular model but I have handled others and they have all been cheap pieces of crap that I wouldn't trust (this one looks about the same)...I like my fingers where they are.

I'm not even going to get started on the whole "throwing knives for SD/combat" topic.


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## Mustafa

There could be other good knives but what i have owned by others. I am by no means good enough to be able to cut a man without a knife.
That knife is like it is, and cannot be changed.
Like the damage i can cause is dependent on me and the knife, not the knife by itself. I will have to practise alot though before i can handel one professionally.
I mean, it is not the knive that is bad, it is the one who holds it. (Like; I am exposed to rain and wind, the (mine) knife is made of stainless stell, it can only be made better when the option is given. I can only increase it effiency when i use it, i cannot decrease it. If i suck with knives, then i am supposed to cut myself  and someone else takes my knife)

But even stainless stell can rust in a very long time. If properly taken care of, then it takes care of you. If you dont someone else will  ... when / if they find you. But you cant hide forever from the other guys? One time later on, your knife does not remain rustfree (if you have stainless, then it is OK). You will not have anything to defend yourself with by that time - Or it may break in the midst of an encounter.


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## Shovel Hook

I am a great fan of the push dagger. Would prefer it to almost any knife for defensive use, though would not carry it for legal concerns. i owned a CS Safekeeper 2. Their new model of pushdagger have some refinements such as kraton over the part of the hilt that makes contact with your fingers. But the old Safekeepers had a simply excellent, thin and compact but full purchase grip, and most importantly an ideal blade profile. While penetration is the long suit of such a knife, obviously, these models offer good cutting/slashing capabilities. Without compromising stabbing/thrusting power. For that versatility IMO they are better than the current models. I need to get another one while I still can. Maybe the Safekeeper 1 as seen in the Color of Night, featuring 5" blade. The 3 was a great design, being a single edge which made it more legal than the usual push dagger, and I don't believe CS is making a single edge anymore, which is too bad. I love the MercWorx Seraphyn and hope to own one soon. The Kopromed push dagger is another nice one, featuring a stag handle which would make an awesome companion to the old CS Stag Trailmaster (and Colt SAA and Bond Arms Derringer with matching stag grips, that would be a beautiful western style rig).


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## Shovel Hook

Not a push dagger but I also owned a CS Kobun and found it to be an excellent CCW. A little longer than "Big Apple Special" size, but a great fixed blade to carry. The Master Hunter (esp. in the better steel) would be good to EDC but the grip is kind of thick for being discreet. Anyway the Kobun was my alternate fixed blade for carry. Still, nothing for me tops a push dagger. With any of the above the kraton gets pretty grabby on clothing, but I think it's better to have that than something smooth that will not be as firm in the hand when it counts


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## KenpoTex

just bumping this one since I got some new toys. I've re-evaluated my EDC knives since this thread made its first go-round and have decided to make a PD a permanent part of my "load-out" (wardrobe permitting). This decision is due in part to the fact that I've been training more in Boxing/MMA methodologies and the PD is excellent in this context.

I still have my CS Safekeeper II (seen in an earlier post in this thread) but I feel that the 4" blade is a little too long. I feel that any failure to strike with a proper angle of incidence will be magnified by the length of the blade possibly causing the knife to be twisted out of the hand.

That being the case, I picked up one of the Safekeeper III's. The blade (and subsequently, the overall length) is 1.5" shorter which makes it feel much more secure when striking (I've tested it on a couple of unsuspecting trees and an old phone book with good results). While I prefer the double-edge design, I don't feel that it really matters that much since it's the point that's doing the work. The factory sheath leaves a bit to be desired but I'm waiting on a custom sheath so that problem will be resolved shortly.







Moving on...
While the Ka-Bar TDI is not by strict definition a push-dagger, I've had pretty good success in using it in much the same manner if it's held in forward grip ("reinforced thumb" punch type motion). It also performs very well in reverse grip with a kind of "chopping" hammer-fist motion. 
I decided to get one of these to play with after hearing all the good reviews over the last couple of years. While I probably won't carry it very often (have other stuff), this will probably be used if I'm in an area that forbids my PD's or my double-edged FB's. I think this is an excellent choice for a compact, concealable fixed-blade. The fact that it's used by and marketed for LE might also get rid of some of the stigma often attached to carrying a FB (if you care about that kind of thing...).


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## MarkBarlow

I'm a big fan of push daggers, especially for tight quarters.  I've got a Cold Steel I like and several zytel ones that are strategically placed in the house, car and boat.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey KenpoTex I like the Ka-Bar TDI as well.  It is a very handy functional little knife that is easier accessible, carries well and is a functional utility tool.  Better yet it translates perfectly to FMA Kerambit technique's and that makes it very, very effective.  I would not trade it for a Push Dagger in a violent confrontation but then again it's great carry factor, every day functionality and effectiveness is hard to match in a very short blade.


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