# How good was Bruce Lee?



## Joab (Jun 22, 2009)

I was certainly awed by Bruce Lee when I was younger primarily because of his speed in his movies. Later, when I took wing chun  I found I couldn't tell any difference from the Sifu's speed and Lee's, both were rather awesome to my admittedly untrained eyes. How good was Bruce Lee? Was he the fastest, quickest martial artist of the 20th century as some say, or, as great a martial artist as he was, are there really a number of martial artists in the world who are just as good at least when it comes to speed as Lee?


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## Chris Parker (Jun 22, 2009)

Hi,

The best? Depends in whose eyes we are talking about. The fastest? Even Bruce said he wasn't really that fast, he just knew how to remove the unnecessary actions, so that he appeared fast (his words, by the way).

The thing to realise here is that speed is one small aspect of overall skill and ability, and, to my mind, far from the be-all end-all. Bruce was an inspiration to an entire generation of martial artists and more, but he was one singular example of possibility. Whether or not you find him the best is going to be up to you.


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## stickarts (Jun 22, 2009)

I never met him, however, two highly talented people that trained with him, Dan inosanto and Joe Lewis, both have spoken extremely highly of him. Those are great testimonials. :0)


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## Jenna (Jun 22, 2009)

Bruce Lee?  "Give him half a year / a year and he could be really good".  He would be no good in UFC though (to paraphrase).  And to think  I had taken him for some kind of genius in his understanding of both fighting mechanics and martial philosophy.  Hmmpf.  Well, seems it ain't so, accorrding to the everso compelling Bas Rutten.






Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## terryl965 (Jun 22, 2009)

He was a head of his time, but to be the greatest is a statement that gets used way to much.


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## Omar B (Jun 22, 2009)

I can say the man was a good teacher.  He also stripped a lot of the BS from MA leaving us with pretty good philosophy of fighting and of life.  So in my eyes he was good.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 22, 2009)

I would have to say as mentioned before, He was a pioneer, ahead of his time definitely. But given he was truly the 1st to showcase his style & philosophy he is automatically placed on a pedestal. I would say he was awesome not putting anything aside! But nothing deserving of his "god like" title.


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## Joab (Jun 22, 2009)

Having lived for 23 years in Seattle where Lee lived for awhile, I have met a couple of guys who were students of Bruce Lee and my wing chun Sifu was taught by James DeMille, who was a student of Lee's for a few months. All say he was great in his abilities as a martial artist, but my Sifu seemed to be great to me as well. One student of Lee's said he wasn't a very good teacher, in fact he used his students as punching bags. They all say he had a lot of character flaws, he was very cocky, but could back up everything he was cocky about, and something of a womanizer, but a truly great martial artist.

Still, I have seen wing chun Sifus who seemed to be as good as Lee, but than when you get to that level its difficult to say, there all something of a blur of kicks and punches.


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## graychuan (Jun 22, 2009)

Most of Bruce's skill...beyond what he knew of WC...was because of his training ethic and conditioning. It is a known fact that Bruce had only completed SLT level and had only just learned the Chum Kui form before he decided 'traditional methods were too fixed' and decided to do his own thing. There were plenty of guys in the original Ip man group out of Hong Kong in 1951 that knew Bruce personally. My Sigung, Woo Fai Ching was one. 
In truth, Yip man didnt even train Bruce as much as is popularized. Wong Shun Lung did most of Bruce's teaching although Bruce did spend time with Yip Man. The phenomena of Bruce's skills say more about WC than it does about him. Just think if he had finished the system how skilled would he be? 

Like a lot of less dedicated Chunnas, Bruce didnt have the patience for 'traditional systems' and when he didnt have the time to devote to true understanding he called it useless and tried to do his own 'Jeet Kune Do'. This did not sit well with Yip Man at all. In the end even Bruce denounced his creation of JKD. Why? Because it was just incomplete Wing Chun. Good as he was, his understanding never actually went beyond what he had learned in Hong Kong. So of course he filled in the holes with whatever else he could find usefull. 

I love Bruce and his movies, but I have LEARNED to love Wing Chun more.


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## blindsage (Jun 22, 2009)

If you've never seen Bruce Lee in person, never experienced his speed yourself, how would you know if your Sifu is as fast as Bruce or not?  You have no real frame of reference to make the comparison.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Most of Bruce's skill...beyond what he knew of WC...was because of his training ethic and conditioning. It is a known fact that Bruce had only completed SLT level and had only just learned the Chum Kui form before he decided 'traditional methods were too fixed' and decided to do his own thing. There were plenty of guys in the original Ip man group out of Hong Kong in 1951 that knew Bruce personally. My Sigung, Woo Fai Ching was one.
> In truth, Yip man didnt even train Bruce as much as is popularized. Wong Shun Lung did most of Bruce's teaching although Bruce did spend time with Yip Man. The phenomena of Bruce's skills say more about WC than it does about him. Just think if he had finished the system how skilled would he be?
> 
> Like a lot of less dedicated Chunnas, Bruce didnt have the patience for 'traditional systems' and when he didnt have the time to devote to true understanding he called it useless and tried to do his own 'Jeet Kune Do'. This did not sit well with Yip Man at all. In the end even Bruce denounced his creation of JKD. Why? Because it was just incomplete Wing Chun. Good as he was, his understanding never actually went beyond what he had learned in Hong Kong. So of course he filled in the holes with whatever else he could find usefull.
> ...



Hey, actually are you one of Ali Rahim Sifu's students? (sorry, off topic)


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

blindsage said:


> If you've never seen Bruce Lee in person, never experienced his speed yourself, how would you know if your Sifu is as fast as Bruce or not?  You have no real frame of reference to make the comparison.



That's agreed, we can debate all day. (I could say I'm better than Bruce! by the way I'm not serious...)

He was a pioneer so give credit to where credit is due, he was ahead of his times. Maybe not the best, maybe the best. But that's not whats important, take whats of use and discard the rest. From Bruce Lee.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 23, 2009)

Graychuan, maybe you can clear this up for me.

But wasn't Woo Fai Chin Sifu taught by Leung Seung who in turn would have had interactions with Bruce, but given the time lines I don't believe Woo Fai Chin Sifu would have.

Not causing trouble just trying to get a better perspective.

Thanks,


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## graychuan (Jun 23, 2009)

No problem, 

Woo actually trained directly with Yip Man for 2 years as a favor to Leung Sheung, then Leung Sheung trained Woo for another 6 years.

Good Question tho....


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## graychuan (Jun 23, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Hey, actually are you one of Ali Rahim Sifu's students? (sorry, off topic)


 

Yes I am.


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## Joab (Jun 23, 2009)

blindsage said:


> If you've never seen Bruce Lee in person, never experienced his speed yourself, how would you know if your Sifu is as fast as Bruce or not? You have no real frame of reference to make the comparison.


 
I didn't say they were, I wrote "to my untrained eye" in other words, from what little I know (And I freely admit it is untrained)
they both looked like blurs to me. What I was asking is of those who have trained eyes, how good did Bruce look to you? To me he looked awesome, but than what do I know? Not a lot to be honest.


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## Andrew Green (Jun 23, 2009)

Jenna said:


> Bruce Lee?  "Give him half a year / a year and he could be really good".  He would be no good in UFC though (to paraphrase).  And to think  I had taken him for some kind of genius in his understanding of both fighting mechanics and martial philosophy.  Hmmpf.  Well, seems it ain't so, accorrding to the everso compelling Bas Rutten.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I think you are putting words in his mouth there.  Bruce Lee, with the skills he had when he was alive, would lose.  He didn't train to fight against MMA fighters, MMA wasn't around.  He's never even seen a Octagon, not to mention MMA fights.  How are you going to deal with G&P tactics when you've never even seen them used?

Bruce Lee might do well in MMA, but he would have to learn the sport first, and based on everything he's written, that is exactly what he would do.  But it would take him some time to learn the skills needed to do MMA.

Those first handful of UFC's showed one thing, if you don't know the other guys skill set and he knows yours, you will loose.  Which is basically what Bas is saying.  His stuff was ahead of its time, but MMA is even further ahead (at least as it relates to MMA fighting)


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## geezer (Jun 23, 2009)

Andrew Green said:


> Bruce Lee might do well in MMA, but he would have to learn the sport first, and* based on everything he's written, that is exactly what he would do*.  But it would take him some time to learn the skills needed to do MMA.



I agree completely. If MMA had come around when Bruce was alive, he would have adapted. That's what he was all about. And from what people who knew him say, he was a quick learner.

As far as the OP goes... "How good was he?" Good enough to inspire a couple of generations of students to take up the martial arts. There may be those who are better fighters, but for me (as others have said) Bruce was to MA what Ali was to boxing. _The greatest_.


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## David43515 (Jun 23, 2009)

Okay, I`ll give the guy his due. Bruce Lee was a Philosophy major in college so he was a trained analytical thinker. That helped him to present MA in a way that westerners appreciate and understand much easier. He also popularized Kung Fu and most other MA for westerners. Good for him.

       But according to Dan Inosanto, there were at least 12-15 people around the west coast alone that Lee readily recognized as being better fighters than he was.

         Everyone seems to think he was some kind of MA god. Get over it people. He was a boxer and a part time wing chunner that wasn`t afraid to cross train. He was in fantastic physical shape. But he was an actor trying desperately to promote his own celebrity and if possible his own style of martial arts cobbled together with very little guidance. When he first began his "traditional training is a waste and can`t stand up to my new modern BS "routine, he rented a theatre in San Fransico to do public demonstrations of his amazing speed. He said no one would be able to stand up to his punching speed and asked for voluteers from the audience to help with a friendly demo. Several of Lau Bun`s Choy Lay Fut students urged one of thier best seniors to go up and be a part of the demo. He used a simple traditional winmill series of repetative blocks and Lee couldn`t lay a glove on him.

          We ALL have our hero worship and the people that inspired us to begin training......but the guy`s been dea for how many years people? Let it go.


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## geezer (Jun 23, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Most of Bruce's skill...beyond what he knew of WC...was because of his training ethic and conditioning. It is a known fact that Bruce had only completed SLT level and had only just learned the Chum Kui form before he decided 'traditional methods were too fixed' and decided to do his own thing...
> 
> Like a lot of less dedicated Chunnas, Bruce didnt have the patience for 'traditional systems' and when he didnt have the time to devote to true understanding he called it useless and tried to do his own 'Jeet Kune Do'. This did not sit well with Yip Man at all. In the end even Bruce denounced his creation of JKD. Why? Because it was just incomplete Wing Chun. Good as he was, his understanding never actually went beyond what he had learned in Hong Kong. So of course he filled in the holes with whatever else he could find usefull.



Boy, this could be the subject for a whole new thread. It is well known that Bruce was never taught the highest levels of WC. But on the other hand, the core stuff, _well understood_, can be devastating in the hands of "a natural". Especially, a driven one. I have met such individuals. Emin Boztepe is one who comes to mind. 

Another point. With a list of seniors, or "si-hings", as long as your arm, it would have been difficult for Bruce to catapult to the top levels of the Yip Man lineage, regardless of his skills. So he may have felt that he had little choice but to find his own path. Was the trade-off worth it? Did he come out ahead, or not? Maybe if he were alive today, he could tell us.


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## Tensei85 (Jun 24, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Yes I am.



Awesome! Give Rahim Sifu my best regards :ultracool


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## graychuan (Jun 24, 2009)

geezer said:


> Boy, this could be the subject for a whole new thread....
> Another point. With a list of seniors, or "si-hings", as long as your arm, it would have been difficult for Bruce to catapult to the top levels of the Yip Man lineage, regardless of his skills*.* So he may have felt that he had little choice but to find his own path. Was the trade-off worth it? Did he come out ahead, or not? Maybe if he were alive today, he could tell us.


 
 Respectfully, I dont see how this would explain peeps like Leung Ting, Augusten Fong, or even William Cheung. Those guys finished the system. And they were not in the first group with which Yip Man started. I dont think its about how high he ranked in the lineage but more about his skills and the information he aquired.
Bruce's 'path' clearly included Hollywood. Nothing wrong with this. He was great, extremely competent in fighting and I loved is movies.


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## mook jong man (Jun 24, 2009)

I asked one of my instructors what they thought of Bruce Lee in Sigung Tsui Seung Tin's school in Kowloon
Apparently they said _he could have been really good if he kept on training in Wing Chun._


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## geezer (Jun 24, 2009)

graychuan said:


> Respectfully, I dont see how this would explain peeps like Leung Ting, Augusten Fong, or even William Cheung.



Exactly my point!  I met Sifu Augustine Fong many years ago and he struck me as a modest man and a gentleman. He has also generally avoided the limelight. But both Sifus Leung Ting and William Cheung have stirred up a lot of controversy with their ambitions to present themselves as the ultimate authorities in the art. I do not want to revisit that discussion. I'm simply pointing out that it would have been very difficult for Bruce Lee to establish himself as the icon he became without moving beyond the confines of Wing Chun.

Graychuan, I think your second point about Bruce Lee's aspiration to make it in Hollywood is right on the money. Finally, his premature death also played a huge role in his  near deification. Had he lived, I suspect he would have been just another martial arts action star to most people.


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## graychuan (Jun 24, 2009)

geezer said:


> Exactly my point! I met Sifu Augustine Fong many years ago and he struck me as a modest man and a gentleman. He has also generally avoided the limelight. But both Sifus Leung Ting and William Cheung have stirred up a lot of controversy with their ambitions to present themselves as the ultimate authorities in the art. I do not want to revisit that discussion. I'm simply pointing out that it would have been very difficult for Bruce Lee to establish himself as the icon he became without moving beyond the confines of Wing Chun.
> 
> Graychuan, I think your second point about Bruce Lee's aspiration to make it in Hollywood is right on the money. Finally, his premature death also played a huge role in his near deification. Had he lived, I suspect he would have been just another martial arts action star to most people.


 

NOW I got ya, man. excellent point!


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 24, 2009)

This whole posts reminds me of a comedian I once saw that was doing a monolog about a guy he knew that was telling everyone how good Bruce Lee was.

Guy: Bruce Lee was so good he could punch you in the chest, rip out your heart, show it to you and toss it the bean dip before you diedwhat do you think of that?

Comedian: Well Im not going to have any of the bean dip 

Bruce was good but I got to go with Geezer on this one, particularly on the whole near deification bits
.


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## zepedawingchun (Jun 24, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> I asked one of my instructors what they thought of Bruce Lee in Sigung Tsui Seung Tin's school in Kowloon
> Apparently they said _he could have been really good if he kept on training in Wing Chun._


 
I had read somewhere, and I don't remember who said this, whether it was Guru Dan Inosanto, or maybe Hawkins Cheung Sifu. But it goes that before Bruce died, he was beginning to understand their were things in Wing Chun that he didn't get (and needed) and was going back to his Wing Chun roots. If so, and he hadn't died, who knows how much better he would have become.

Hawkins Cheung Sifu has some interesting reading on his website concerning Bruce. Having been one of (IMO) Bruce Lee's closest friends, I think he has a better handle on the real Bruce Lee and his JKD. No disrespect to Guru Dan Inosanto, or any of Bruce Lee's students, but Guru Dan was a student where as Hawkins Cheung Sifu was a fellow student, training partner, and childhood friend. As teachers, we only let our students get to a certain level of closeness. And close friends are like family, they see more of what we are like.

http://www.hawkinscheung.com/html/hcarticle3.htm


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## graychuan (Jun 24, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> I had read somewhere, and I don't remember who said this, whether it was Guru Dan Inosanto, or maybe Hawkins Cheung Sifu. But it goes that before Bruce died, he was beginning to understand their were things in Wing Chun that he didn't get (and needed) and was going back to his Wing Chun roots. If so, and he hadn't died, who knows how much better he would have become.
> 
> Hawkins Cheung Sifu has some interesting reading on his website concerning Bruce. Having been one of (IMO) Bruce Lee's closest friends, I think he has a better handle on the real Bruce Lee and his JKD. No disrespect to Guru Dan Inosanto, or any of Bruce Lee's students, but Guru Dan was a student where as Hawkins Cheung Sifu was a fellow student, training partner, and childhood friend. As teachers, we only let our students get to a certain level of closeness. And close friends are like family, they see more of what we are like.
> 
> http://www.hawkinscheung.com/html/hcarticle3.htm


 
I had also heard something of this. it may have even been mentioned in one of the many documentaries on Bruce.


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