# Army combatives



## nbcdecon (Jun 15, 2002)

Currently the Army is giveing diffrent levels of instruction on the combatives the matrix is like this.
skill level 1 novice  ( body holds and positions)
skill level 2 beginner  ( collar cokes and arm bars)
skill level 3 Intermediate ( more submissions) 
skill level 4 advanced instructors  ( some weapons training)
 The Army has set rules much like the old Pancrase rules no punching to the head just open hand and no straight hits with open palm. The Army is has only certified the drill instructors at FT Leonardwood and people of the Ranger bt along with some SF.
 I will host a tourney by the end of the year with these rules in Japan and am working on putting some state side tourney together I just have to hash out the legal portion of the games.


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2002)

What weapons are taught at skill level 4?


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## nbcdecon (Jun 15, 2002)

E-tool, knife, stick, m-16


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## arnisador (Jun 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nbcdecon _
> 
> *m-16 *



Do you mean in a stick-like fashion, or perhaps with a bayonet?


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## nbcdecon (Jun 15, 2002)

all the weapons should be trained with the real thing. For the stick training it would be any stick near by or a night stick.


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## bronzmetal (Jun 23, 2002)

I am currently in the Army and very much into Jiu jitsu. When did this program you speak of started and where (what Army installation) is the training taking place?


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## nbcdecon (Jun 25, 2002)

Most of the training in Jiu jitsu comes from BJJ. The advisor to the new combatives manual is a E-7 at Ranger regement. It was explained to me that FT Leonardwood drill sgts are the hub for the combatives. Go to General Riemer's Library online you should be able to down load the combatives manual it has a POC in the frist couple of pages.


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## bronzmetal (Jun 30, 2002)

I went to the site and I am glad that the U.S. Army has adopted BJJ into it's hand to hand training. I thought of actual submission grappling competitions in the Army to be rumors or some guys just messing around at different units. 
I had a soilder return home from training at Ft. Benning Ga. and he spoke of how they (Infantry school) were doing this type of training and actually having contests ! 
Well, after reading you're post and also checking out FM 3-25 on Gen. Reimer's library site, heck, I hope that my next duty station will be at Ft. Leonarwood so I can be involved in all this good to go training!


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 30, 2002)

This was mention in Close Quarter Combat Mag. This mag is produce by Hock Hochheim. In there he talked about going for arm bars was not a good think for the U.S army to think about. I would have to agree with him. True military combat is not the same as NHB, and if you fight as if you are doing NHB you are going to get KILLED. In NHB there are no helmets so punching to the head will only break your hand. While going for that nice prefect arm bar you get a knife stab in your stomach or in your back if you have the mount. Dirt and other foreign object are not found in the NHB ring. Also many people have mention that BJJ is not effective against Mulitpal attackers. I have not seen to many one man armies out there.
Bob:bazook: :tank: :zap:


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## bronzmetal (Jul 1, 2002)

I totally agree with you. Why would I want to risk a perfect Armbar in Hand to hand during a military battle? That would be silly and costly. However, would it not be safe to know at least how to defend yourself if your enemy bumrushed you and knocked you to the ground?

BJJ, just like most hand to hand combat has it's place.  It just depends on the situation I guess. It is always safer to use a weapon at a safe distance away from your enemy in my opinion. 
But if it comes down to it, do what you must do to survive and take your enemy out with what you can. Whether it be Jiu jitsu, Escrima, Karate or Cra-a-Z during a hand to hand situation I guess it depends on what cards your dealt.

I love BJJ and I am glad that the U.S. Army recognizes that it is one of the best systems when it comes to defense from the ground!


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## Morpheus (Jul 2, 2002)

The purpose of the new combatatives is not to give soldiers the perfect method of military H2H, but to provide a system of physical culture and way of training where they can compete at full speed without risking injury.

It is intended to build fitness, fighting spirit and competetiveness.

H2H fighting is an anachronism. Soldiers fight with entrenching tools and helmets, knives and rocks at close quarters anyway.

So their combatatives programme might as well be good for morale. "We're doing Ultimate fighting like Royce Gracie"


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## HarvesterofSorrow (Jul 8, 2002)

USMC got a new H2H program.  Its MCMAP.  Anyone know anything about it?


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## arnisador (Jul 9, 2002)

Check out the current issue of Inside Kung Fu for an article on the USMC program.


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## Chiduce (Sep 12, 2002)

Heck we did the E-Tool, Knife, & M-16 bit when i was in starting in 1978. Though my AIT training was a lot longer than most recruits. Since we trained at the NASA Space Camp or Redstone Arsenal (U.S. Missile And Munitions School & Center) there was a lot of time to practice basic fighting skills (in between advanced weapon's systems studies) as well as getting into real fights to see what was working. My total training from boot camp to premanent duty was 12 months. Pershing was a great job. 
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## arnisador (Sep 22, 2002)

In  Black Belt Magazine this month is an article on the 2nd Infantry Division adopting "Warrior Tae Kwon Do" (which includes elements of BJJ). They train once a week and hope to achieve brown belt status in roughly a year.


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## tmanifold (Sep 22, 2002)

> _Originally posted by HarvesterofSorrow _
> 
> *USMC got a new H2H program.  Its MCMAP.  Anyone know anything about it? *



From what I understand it was developed by a "panel of experts" one of which is Jack Hoban, a Former marine officer and 14th dan under Hatsumi sensei. I have heard mixed reviews. One good thing is that it is an ongoing program not just 2 weeks at basic.

Tony


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2006)

http://news.soc.mil/releases/05NOV/051118-02.htm

*USASOC Soldiers dominate Army combatives championship*



> FORT BRAGG, N.C. (USASOC News Service, Nov. 18, 2005) &#8212;Continuing a special operations tradition evolving hand-to-hand combat techniques, several U.S. Army Special Operations Command Soldiers dominated a recent All Army Combatives Tournament held at Fort Benning, Ga.,  Nov. 5 and 6.


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## D Dempsey (Jan 19, 2006)

One of the guys I train with here at Ft. Bliss entered the tournament at Benning.  He didn't do to well but said it was a lot of fun.  From what he told me the guys who won their weight classes were both pro-fighters.  I'm competing in a combatives tournament tomorrow morning at Ft. Bliss.  I don't think we'll have any pro's here though.
-David Dempsey-


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## EddieB (Jan 19, 2006)

HarvesterofSorrow said:
			
		

> USMC got a new H2H program. Its MCMAP. Anyone know anything about it?


 
     The MCMAP program attempts to integrate L.I.N.E. training with arm restraints, joint locks, and judo-style throws.  The goal is to ensure that a marine doesn't overreact to a peacekeeping situation while.  There is a strong focus on physical conditioning and character development.    
     They utilize a belt system to encourage their members to continue training (tan, grey, green, brown, black) which is worn with their utilities.  
I've never had to use any techniques in anything other than training so I can't vouch for its effectiveness in combat, but some seem pretty brutal. 

Question on the army system: Is there a reason why weapons training is reserved for the higher levels?


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## arnisador (Jan 19, 2006)

D Dempsey said:
			
		

> I'm competing in a combatives tournament tomorrow morning at Ft. Bliss.



Good luck! Let us know how it goes!

Welcome, *EddieB*!


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## Henderson (Jan 19, 2006)

tmanifold said:
			
		

> Jack Hoban, a Former marine officer and *14th dan* under Hatsumi sensei.


 
I know this thread is over 2 yrs old, but is this for real, or a typo?

Frank


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## EddieB (Jan 19, 2006)

I didn't realise I replied to a 3 year old post.  Hope it's still relevant.  According to his web site, he's "only" a 10th dan in Bujinkan as of 1996.


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 20, 2006)

D Dempsey said:
			
		

> One of the guys I train with here at Ft. Bliss entered the tournament at Benning. He didn't do to well but said it was a lot of fun. From what he told me the guys who won their weight classes were both pro-fighters. I'm competing in a combatives tournament tomorrow morning at Ft. Bliss. I don't think we'll have any pro's here though.
> -David Dempsey-


 
Good luck! artyon:


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> I know this thread is over 2 yrs old, but is this for real, or a typo?



As I understand it, in the Bujinkan there are 5 honorary grades above 10th degree black belt and these are often translated into English as 11th through 15th degree black belts. Technically, they're 10th degree plus an additional honor of some sort.

Hey, Judo goes to 12.


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## D Dempsey (Jan 20, 2006)

So I completly lost form points.  I didn't really understand the scoring and some of the rules were different then I was used to in BJJ.  It was still fun though.  Hopefully I do better in the July tournament.  That one is using pancrase rules.


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2006)

Well, you tried! You'' be better prepared for next time.


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## Josh (Jan 20, 2006)

man. Our Army training stinks. And the Modern American thinking stinks!!


They FORCE people to join their "military" and then make do all these Lame techniques that probably won't even work in a real situation, but most of all, because you can't force someone to fight for their country and expect them to do well. 


They need to teach their sergeants about real Combat.  They can't train for EVERY situation.


That's crazy!!! Leveling up in the "Army BJJ and Tae Kwon Do Program"???

If a Belt doesn't matter in civilian life, why should it in the Army?


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## D Dempsey (Jan 20, 2006)

Josh said:
			
		

> man. Our Army training stinks. And the Modern American thinking stinks!!
> 
> 
> They FORCE people to join their "military" and then make do all these Lame techniques that probably won't even work in a real situation, but most of all, because you can't force someone to fight for their country and expect them to do well.
> ...



Last time I checked neither myself or anyone else in the military was forced to join.  It's all voluntary.  Army combatives are taught to build confidence and morale, plus the competitive nature of it makes it fun to do.  It actually doesn't have a whole lot of do with modern combat.  

Are you in the Army?  If you're not why do you even care how it chooses to conduct it's training?


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## Henderson (Jan 20, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Hey, Judo goes to 12.


 
The Kodokan truly only recognizes up to Judan (10th).  Only 15 men have been promoted to 10th dan under the Kodokan since the inception of Judo in 1882.  Prof. Kano was posthumously awarded Junidan (12th), in recognition of his founding Judo.  No one else can be promoted higher than Judan.


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## Henderson (Jan 20, 2006)

Josh said:
			
		

> man. Our Army training stinks. And the Modern American thinking stinks!!
> 
> 
> They FORCE people to join their "military" and then make do all these Lame techniques that probably won't even work in a real situation, but most of all, because you can't force someone to fight for their country and expect them to do well.
> ...


 
Pick up a weapon and stand at post, otherwise I would rather you just said "thank you" and be on your way.....wait a minute...just read the profile...18 yrs old explains it.


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## Shogun (Jan 21, 2006)

My instructor (Pedro Sauer) is the head Gracie Jiu Jitsu program director for the US Army. all of his affiliates are sub-contracted as well. They typically have 3-5 day seminars, each day learning the most basic techniques, but the most effective ways of applying them.


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