# Weight lifting



## soccer50 (Jun 4, 2003)

Let me start off by saying that i believe that one needs cardio to really benefit from lifing weights. 

Weight lifting....theres toning up for sports lifting  and power lifting. personally, believe that weight lifting is not needed. however i do lift weights. i just do biceps and pecs. becuase everything else is handled in my Muay Thai training. Many martial artist i know agree that power lifting is a burden. i know power lifters who do little cardio and just have muscle mass. some say they had to stop for a few years to get smaller. My question is: isnt there a muscle mass to height deal? a 6 foot person has x amount of muscle mass thats normal for him, but if a 5  foot person also has x amount of muscle mass, thats not good..right?because ur slow and heavy. it doesnt help in fights either...ive seen bony people beat up some football players. but the bony people have MA training. but the fottbal players have wieght training. what are the benefits of extra muscle mass?:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by soccer50 _
> *Let me start off by saying that i believe that one needs cardio to really benefit from lifing weights.
> 
> Weight lifting....theres toning up for sports lifting  and power lifting. personally, believe that weight lifting is not needed. however i do lift weights. i just do biceps and pecs. becuase everything else is handled in my Muay Thai training. Many martial artist i know agree that power lifting is a burden. i know power lifters who do little cardio and just have muscle mass. some say they had to stop for a few years to get smaller. My question is: isnt there a muscle mass to height deal? a 6 foot person has x amount of muscle mass thats normal for him, but if a 5  foot person also has x amount of muscle mass, thats not good..right?because ur slow and heavy. it doesnt help in fights either...ive seen bony people beat up some football players. but the bony people have MA training. but the fottbal players have wieght training. what are the benefits of extra muscle mass?:asian: *


There is no such thing as "toning up".  You really can't "tone" your muscles in the way you put it.  Most of the toning is getting rid of flab.

You are confusing bodybuilding with powerlifting.  Bodybuilding is training for mass and aesthetics.  Powerlifting is training for absolute strength.  Olympic lifting is training for speed-strength or dynamic strength as you will.  Martial artists will most undoubtedly benefit from powerlifting and olympic lifting.  Powerlifting is where you add strength without gaining mass as it's a totally different training philosophy.  That's why you see a lot of skinny guys on TV that bench over 400.  Bodybuilders are the biggest people on the planet.  A bodybuilder @ 5'5" can weigh in at 200 pounds with a VERY LOW BF%.  However, a bodybuilder can nowhere compare in strength with a powerlifter.  

Bodybuilders - Huge guys, above-average strength
Powerlifters - Above-Average Size, Best Strength

And don't tell me you're one of those bicep and pec people.  Those two muscle groups are most associated with teens who don't know what they're doing and they just bench and curl every day.

You need to work the muscles that actually DO something.  The chest does something, but it isn't near the top.  Legs and back.  The two most important muscles.  Ironically, these are the muscles that people don't care about.

Professional bodybuilders and professional powerlifters do little cardio, period.  But you aren't a professional that competes, and can't sacrifice stamina for winning a competition.

Especially in muay thai, you can benefit from doing squats with proper form, snatches, power cleans, clean and jerks, dead lifts, and bent-over rows.

Size and weight don't always mean you'll be slow.  Some people are naturally big.  I'm short and stocky, being 5'7" 1/2 and around 180 at a 13% BF.  However, I was always like that.  There are different body types out there.  I'm a mesomorph, not the bodytype that will prevail in basketball.  According to those "know-it-all internet doctors".  But my strengths are speed, agility, and flexibility.


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## MartialArtist (Jun 4, 2003)

And no, you are also confusing size with fighting.

You have to think outside what you see.  I've seen little guys beat up big guys, when both had prior training, and I've seen big guys beat up little guys.  But to say that just because a little guy beat up a big guy means the extra mass is useless?  Or to say that the faster smaller guy got beat up by a big guy means that speed is useless?  That's a foolish statement.

The real answer is that you have to play by your strengths, and not to play by your weaknesses.  If you're fast, be fast.  If you're not graceful, but you pack a punch, then don't try to be graceful and try to punch the guy.  Simple logic.  Every person is different, and you have to train in a given manner where you are at optimal fighting performance.  Mr. XYZ would benefit from more power training than he would speed training, and would benefit from flexibility training while Mr. ZYX would benefit from more weight training and playing by his strength and coordination.  You just have to find the perfect combination of training methods.


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## spook mma (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *There is no such thing as "toning up".  You really can't "tone" your muscles in the way you put it.  Most of the toning is getting rid of flab.
> 
> You are confusing bodybuilding with powerlifting.  Bodybuilding is training for mass and aesthetics.  Powerlifting is training for absolute strength.  Olympic lifting is training for speed-strength or dynamic strength as you will.  Martial artists will most undoubtedly benefit from powerlifting and olympic lifting.  Powerlifting is where you add strength without gaining mass as it's a totally different training philosophy.  That's why you see a lot of skinny guys on TV that bench over 400.  Bodybuilders are the biggest people on the planet.  A bodybuilder @ 5'5" can weigh in at 200 pounds with a VERY LOW BF%.  However, a bodybuilder can nowhere compare in strength with a powerlifter.
> ...



absolutely correct.  sport science continues to show that contrary to myths in previous generations (weight lifting will slow you down, is ineffective, etc.) weight lifting should be implemented into a muay thai regimen. i know my instructor strongly urges us to lift on days we don't train.  professional boxers use weight lifting to help increase their functional strength, as well as make gains in speed.  basketball, football, baseball, and practically all other athletes use weight lifting as a tool to improve in their effectiveness.  why not thai boxing?

as MartialArtist stated, the major muscle groups that should be incorporated into a weight/strength training routine are back, legs, and chest.  not so coincidentally, these are also the largest muscle groups. 

also, don't be so quick to condemn extra muscle mass.  the extra 10 lbs. that you gain in muscle mass (which isnt as easy to gain as it might sound) isnt enough to cause major inflexibility or cause you to slow down considerably.  nfl cornerbacks and safeties hover around 200-220 lbs and those guys are fast in every way. 

but while we are on the topic, what is a good routine?  i placed a post in the Muay Thai forum, but a suggestion would be made to post something in this forum


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## Elfan (Jun 5, 2003)

"Toning" is a bastard form of a proper biological term: tonus.  Tonus is the residual tension in a skeletal muscle when it is at rest.  It is not well understood but atrophied muscles have a lack of tonus so the converse would be that tonus increases at a muscle strengthens.

paraphrased from the Super Slow Tech Mnl.


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 5, 2003)

Muscle mass is also a genetic thing.  Not everyone can be huge, no matter how hard you train.  Don't think that just because you're lifting weight you're going to be like Arnold soon.  Most people will *never* come close.

Strength training is one part of fitness, along with Flexibility and cardiovascular fitness.  All three should be trained to maximize your potential.  Granted you don't have to specifically lift metal bars over your head, doing body-weight exercises can be all that you need/want.  But, there are some exercises that are difficult, if not impossible to do with only body weight, or sometimes your body weight limits your growth.

Strength training has been found to enhance all sports, from Sprinting to Tennis.  It's purely a myth that it slows you down.  It all depends on your training regimen.

Did you know that the average person loses up to 10% of lean muscle mass per decade after age 30.  Strength training is what keeps that in check.

Bottom line, strength training is important for a healthier life.  Muscles are what burn the calories we eat and let us be mobile.

WhiteBirch


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## Elfan (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lvwhitebir _
> *Muscle mass is also a genetic thing.  Not everyone can be huge, no matter how hard you train.  Don't think that just because you're lifting weight you're going to be like Arnold soon.  Most people will *never* come close. *



*Potential* is a genetic thing.  Even Ahhhhhhhhnold would look like a string bean if his muscles were deprived of stimulation to grow or the recover factors.  Just cause you are blessed with good genes doesn't mean you don't have to train, the prodigal son still has to return so to speak.



> Muscles are what burn the calories we eat and let us be mobile.



Exactly.  I'm not able to find consistant numbers for this but a pound of muscle, just from its base metabolism, consumes about 40 calories a day while a pound of fat consumes only 2.


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## MartialArtist (Jun 5, 2003)

No matter how much we train, none of us will be Ronnie Coleman.

Also, if Arnold trained to be a powerlifter, he wouldn't be as big as he was.

All of the muscle-bound guys that you see in the IFBB competitions like Arnold (classic era), and today's pros such as Coleman, Gunter, Priest, Ruhl...  All are on steroids.  Steroids + smart bodybuilding training + excellent diet and rest + dedication = IFBB bodybuilder.

Bodybuilding is different from powerlifting.  Powerlifting is what most athletes should be doing (unless for certain people such as centers in basketball who need the mass or NFL linemen).  And like spook mma said before, 10 pounds of muscle (not fat) takes over a year, even for a lot of genetic freaks.  You might gain 20 pounds in a few months, but most of it would be water weight, fat, etc.  10 pounds might be reasonable if you had excellent training, lots of calories, etc. and if you were a beginner, thus getting what people call beginner gains.


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## soccer50 (Jun 5, 2003)

Wow, these are really good replys. Thanks for clearing it up.

what do u guys work on when u lift wieghts. the reason i do biceps and pecs mainly becuase every other muscle is covered by wieght free excersices. i do crunches, reverse crunches, back crunches, squats, incline and decline pushups, reverse bench press (the fly **really hard**), pull ups. Everything i do with wieghts is bench(incline flat and decline), bicep curl, and deltoids.

I hear about this repetition vs amount of weight deal. whats that all about? i dont remember wat it was, somethign like power and endurance:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Jun 5, 2003)

For mass, 3 sets of 8-12 reps.  Never going below 6 reps.  1 minute rests in between and lots of flexing (to get more blood pumping)

For strength : 5-6 sets of 2-6 reps.  3 minute rests.

For endurance : Usually three sets of over 16 reps

Anyway, every person is different so experiement with the rep ranges.


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## Elfan (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *Bodybuilding is different from powerlifting.  Powerlifting is what most athletes should be doing (unless for certain people such as centers in basketball who need the mass or NFL linemen).  *



I disagree.  I think the only people who should be training like a powerlifter are powerlifters, ie people who intend to compete in a powerlifting event.  Athletes should tailor their weighlifting routine to the demands of their sport.  A rockclimer might desire specialized forearm work and the increased mass from deadlifting and sqating might actaully be detrimental.  However, the squat, deadlift, and bench press are all excelent exercise and can be extremely useful to most athelets.


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## MartialArtist (Jun 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I disagree.  I think the only people who should be training like a powerlifter are powerlifters, ie people who intend to compete in a powerlifting event.  Athletes should tailor their weighlifting routine to the demands of their sport.  A rockclimer might desire specialized forearm work and the increased mass from deadlifting and sqating might actaully be detrimental.  However, the squat, deadlift, and bench press are all excelent exercise and can be extremely useful to most athelets. *


That's why I said most athletes would benefit from POWERLIFTING.  Powerlifting's goal isn't mass, it's strength.


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## spook mma (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I disagree.  I think the only people who should be training like a powerlifter are powerlifters, ie people who intend to compete in a powerlifting event.  Athletes should tailor their weighlifting routine to the demands of their sport.  A rockclimer might desire specialized forearm work and the increased mass from deadlifting and sqating might actaully be detrimental.  However, the squat, deadlift, and bench press are all excelent exercise and can be extremely useful to most athelets. *



i'm gonna go out on a limb and say EVERY athlete would benefit from strength training.  correct me if i'm wrong, but who wouldn't want to be stronger and faster?  even golfers, a la Tiger Woods can find a benefit to strength training.

as far as deadlifting and squatting are concerned, at the very least a strength training regimen should include those exercises, or some variation.  note that strength training would not necessarily result in increased muscle mass.  

and rockclimbers actually utilize more legwork than most people realize.  i'm positive that serious rockclimbers incorporate low weight squats, lunges, or other variations of these exercises.  i imagine that endurance exercises would probably be emphasized more however.

now i do agree that a martial arts practioner should not follow a strict power lifting routine.  but i believe that it goes without saying that one should incorporate ideas and exercises that would suit you.


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## soccer50 (Jun 6, 2003)

What is the difference between muscalar strengh and enurance? doesnt weight lifting come with both?


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## Elfan (Jun 6, 2003)

I'm not saying that athletes woudn't benifit from strength training/weight lifting/whatever you want to call it, I was saying that training as a powerlifter trains is not nececarily the appropriate apporach for all athletes.  

I think almost any athlete could benifit from a strength training program.


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by soccer50 _
> *What is the difference between muscalar strengh and enurance? doesnt weight lifting come with both? *



I would say that marathon runners have muscular endurance (the ability for the muscle to work for a long period of time, very efficient at burning glucose/fat) while power lifters have muscular strength (good at short burst of very powerful energy).

While the power lifters can lift a lot of weight, their muscles would probably cramp up if they attempted a marathon.  Conversely, marathoners don't have the muscle mass to lift very heavy weight.

Of course these are all generalities for the sake of an easy description.

More medically, it's probably the difference between the fast twitch and slow twitch muscle fibers that make up the muscle.  Marathoners have more fast twitch while power lifters have more slow twitch.

WhiteBirch


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## MartialArtist (Jun 6, 2003)

There's also muscle fibers...  There are two main muscle types, and one of them has two parts to that group.  Depending on the composition, it can change some physical aspects.

Muscle group I - Slender.  People with this type are usually in some type of long stamina-related type of thing such as marathons.  Red muscle.

Muscle group II - Fast twitch muscle.  Explosive athletes have this type of muscle group.  When working out, these muscle fibers are the ones that grow.  White muscle.

There are two Group II muscles.  IIa and IIb.  IIb is the fastest-twitching but tire out the easiest.

For instance, most World Cup soccer players have IIa (although many have I or IIb.).  Explosive positions that don't have to run forever such as halfback (American Football) have this.  Martial artists can vary.

I'm no expert on muscle fibers, but there are is some general reading that you can find online.


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## MartialArtist (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Elfan _
> *I'm not saying that athletes woudn't benifit from strength training/weight lifting/whatever you want to call it, I was saying that training as a powerlifter trains is not nececarily the appropriate apporach for all athletes.
> 
> I think almost any athlete could benifit from a strength training program. *


Yeah, I agree, and I have stated that and gave an example on NFL linemen as they would benefit from a bodybuilding program also (mass with some strength gains) from a powerlifting program (strength gains with some mass gains).  Primary goals are different.  Bodybuilding - Mass and aesthetics.  Powerlifting - Strength.  For martial artists, especially those who compete, would benefit more from a powerlifting program unless you had to be like 140 pounds at 6' or something.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Jun 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by soccer50 _
> *What is the difference between muscalar strengh and enurance? doesnt weight lifting come with both? *



Muscular strength can be best measured by your ability to perform one repetition of a certain weight, (your max.)

Musular endurance is your ability to repeat or sustain an action which is stressful to the muscles (ie 20 repetitions of a lesser weight, or hanging from a chin-up bar with arms bent at 90 degrees.)

Different styles of exercise develop either area at different rates.

And in reference to the post that began this thread: how, when and where you strike someone is often more important than how hard you can hit them. Increasing your muscular strength through resistance training allows you to hit harder. Therefore, if you have the skills to hit properly, at the right time, to the right target, BUT, you can also strike harder, there we see the benefit of weight training to the martial artist.

(And yes, I do believe there is a legitimate benefit to weight training and use weight training myself. I also agree that cardiovascular fitness is extremely important to a martial artist, because combat is stressful and tiring and great cardiac output increases your chances of getting away safely.)


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Jun 6, 2003)

> Marathoners have more fast twitch while power lifters have more slow twitch.



I think you've confused your terms here. Fast twitch fibres are the ones associated with quick, powerful movements such as those required for power-lifters. Slow twitch fibre is endurance muscle which allows a marathon runner to keep moving over long distances at consistant speed.

[People also have a certain percentage of a sort of "hybrid" fibre type - the "fast-twitch, oxidative glycolitic" fibres. (Which i will refer to as "FOG")]
FOG fibres are, in essence, fast-twitch fibres, but tend to take on properties of slow-twitch muscle fibres when endurance training is given precendence over speed or strength. This effectively creates a greater number of slow twitch fibres. This is not particularly useful to the martial artist, but the good news is, the process of "slowing down" these FOG fibres will slowly reverse itself if strength training is resumed or begun. I will not pretend to fully understand the reason for this reaction, as I have not yet spend enough time studying kinesiology to completely grasp the reason for the process, it's just some food for thought.


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## soccer50 (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *There's also muscle fibers...  There are two main muscle types, and one of them has two parts to that group.  Depending on the composition, it can change some physical aspects.
> 
> Muscle group I - Slender.  People with this type are usually in some type of long stamina-related type of thing such as marathons.  Red muscle.
> ...



since muscle groups are herditary, not everybody can be a weight lifter or a football plater. or martial artist or marathon runner huh. i gotta say that these replies are really helpful


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## MartialArtist (Jun 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by soccer50 _
> *since muscle groups are herditary, not everybody can be a weight lifter or a football plater. or martial artist or marathon runner huh. i gotta say that these replies are really helpful *


No, don't misunderstand the comment.

Anyone can be a football player, a weight lifter, etc.  Just to play special positions that require key traits at a professional level.  You have to make the best of your abilities.  If you're a 400 pound man, don't try to play sweeper in soccer.  If you're 400 pounds, don't try to be a NFL halfback that requires explosive running power.  However, at 400 pounds, you could be an NFL linemen, get what I mean?  Also think of basketball.  An agile 5'10" basketball player won't play center, but most likely point guard.  A 7'3" basketball player probably won't play point guard but rather center or a power forward.

Anyone can be a martial artist.  You misunderstood that concept COMPLETELY.  Martial artists can have any type of muscle fibers, just stick to what you're great at.  Those with great stamina can wear the opponent down if they are skillful.  And quickness isn't muscle makeup.  Some people can run faster than others, others can punch faster, kick faster, etc.  But there are just too many variables in fighting.  Most fights are quick, explosive, aggressive.  But a trained fighter who knows what he's doing can play to his strengths.

Anyone can be a marathon runner.  One can always improve.  It's just that don't expect to be a gold medalist.  Professional athletes for their respective sports are not only naturally gifted, but put more sweat in a day than most of you do in a year.  No matter how gifted you are, you also have to train or you won't get that far.

People who blame genes for their lack of ability are as bad as people who naturally have talent and waste it if not worse.

If you aren't naturally fast or agile, you probably won't be _fast or agile_.  But you can become significantly _faster or more agile_


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Crazy Chihuahua _
> *I think you've confused your terms here. *



Thanks for the correction.  At least my point was close to the mark.

WhiteBirch


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lvwhitebir _
> *Thanks for the correction.  At least my point was close to the mark.
> 
> WhiteBirch *



No problem. I wrote a test today on muscle memory and readiness and other rediculous things like that. It's confusing stuff sometimes.


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