# So Martial Arts isn't Boy Scouts



## PhotonGuy

People on MartialTalk have said that martial arts training is not the same thing as Boy Scouts. Well, they're not exactly the same thing but they do have some stuff in common. And they do have some of the same principals. And, if you're going to say that Martial Arts is nothing like Boy Scouts I would have to say you're wrong and you really can't say that with any credibility if you weren't ever a Boy Scout yourself. I was a Boy Scout so I know.


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## Tez3

Just a shame some Scout Associations don't live up to the Founder's principles though. I don't think many martial arts discriminate on the grounds of gender, sexuality and religion though our Scouts and Guides don't either. I don't think B-P would like trolling either.


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## donald1

Mostly differences but there may be some things they have in common,  there are martial arts ranks and boy Scouts ranks and both have requirements for them


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## PhotonGuy

donald1 said:


> Mostly differences but there may be some things they have in common,  there are martial arts ranks and boy Scouts ranks and both have requirements for them



Yes that would be one of the more obvious similarities but aside from that some of the same principals apply. Boy Scouts teaches hard work, honesty, kindness, resourcefulness, and a team effort and lots of martial arts teach the same.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> People on MartialTalk have said that martial arts training is not the same thing as Boy Scouts. Well, they're not exactly the same thing but they do have some stuff in common. And they do have some of the same principals. And, if you're going to say that Martial Arts is nothing like Boy Scouts I would have to say you're wrong and you really can't say that with any credibility if you weren't ever a Boy Scout yourself. I was a Boy Scout so I know.




Have you read 'Scouting for Boys'? If not, you really need to, if you have you really need to read it again. Be my guest.

http://www.thedump.scoutscan.com/yarns00-28.pdf


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## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> People on MartialTalk have said that martial arts training is not the same thing as Boy Scouts. Well, they're not exactly the same thing but they do have some stuff in common. And they do have some of the same principals. And, if you're going to say that Martial Arts is nothing like Boy Scouts I would have to say you're wrong and you really can't say that with any credibility if you weren't ever a Boy Scout yourself. I was a Boy Scout so I know.



Build your case...  How are martial arts like Boy Scouts?


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## drop bear

Do boy scouts punch each other in the face?


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## Dirty Dog

drop bear said:


> Do boy scouts punch each other in the face?



We did, occassionally...
Of course, a couple of the other scouts atteneded the same dojang as I did at the time.


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## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Build your case...  How are martial arts like Boy Scouts?



As I stated before, lots of the principals taught in Boy Scouts are also taught in many of the martial arts, hard work, kindness, resourcefulness, and teamwork. A Scout strives to be "Physically Strong, Mentally Awake, and Morally Straight," and most martial arts practitioners, serious ones at least, strive for that too. And, just like many of the martial arts, Boy Scouts has a ranking system. And, both the martial arts and Boy Scouts stress being prepared for stuff. In the martial arts, its about self defense thus being prepared in case you're attacked and being in good shape and healthy, and about being prepared for anything you might come across in general. In Boy Scouts its the same thing, the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared," so there you have it.


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## MJS

Hmm...the same could be said about the Military.  So, aside from the things you mention, is there anything else that equates the scouts to the arts?


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## Dirty Dog

I can point out vague similarities between elementary school and martial arts. While the similarities exist, the question remains: so what?
What's your point?


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## drop bear

Do boy scouts date strippers?


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## Steve

PhotonGuy said:


> As I stated before, lots of the principals taught in Boy Scouts are also taught in many of the martial arts, hard work, kindness, resourcefulness, and teamwork. A Scout strives to be "Physically Strong, Mentally Awake, and Morally Straight," and most martial arts practitioners, serious ones at least, strive for that too. And, just like many of the martial arts, Boy Scouts has a ranking system. And, both the martial arts and Boy Scouts stress being prepared for stuff. In the martial arts, its about self defense thus being prepared in case you're attacked and being in good shape and healthy, and about being prepared for anything you might come across in general. In Boy Scouts its the same thing, the Boy Scout motto is "Be Prepared," so there you have it.



A lot of those same principles are taught to kids on the soccer team too. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Tez3

drop bear said:


> Do boy scouts date strippers?



Some are strippers. Here we are inclusive of everyone, straight, gay, male, female, transgender, strippers, clergy, disabled, whatever all are welcome to Scouting and Guiding.


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## Cirdan

Flower arrangement has many of the same principles as martial arts but calling them the same would be a stretch.

Got a date with this hot stripper so see you guys later


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## Transk53

I was a Cub Scout at my first boarding school. I actually really enjoyed it. In the school grounds we had a orchard, sadly no longer, got sold to housing development, where we used to camp out. Eventually I did make it to the scouts at 12, but discovered Girls. Much more interesting than a merit badge, plus I accidently set fire to my tent. Got thrown out for unruly behaviour. Looking back on it I do wish I had not been such a little b###### and persisted with the true mission. The highlight of my Cub days was observing Badgers. That was cool


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> I was a Cub Scout at my first boarding school. I actually really enjoyed it. In the school grounds we had a orchard, sadly no longer, got sold to housing development, where we used to camp out. Eventually I did make it to the scouts at 12, but discovered Girls. Much more interesting than a merit badge, plus I accidently set fire to my tent. Got thrown out for unruly behaviour. Looking back on it I do wish I had not been such a little b###### and persisted with the true mission. The highlight of my Cub days was observing Badgers. That was cool



Cubs and scouts have girls in these days.  You could always become a leader.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Cubs and scouts have girls in these days.  You could always become a leader.



Nice idea, but could hardly lead myself through life until recently


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Nice idea, but could hardly lead myself through life until recently



Working as a volunteer with children is hugely therapeutic,  they are young, funny and great fun. Too many people miss out on fun these days and fun is healing. Scouting and Guiding is a game, B-P designed it that way, it's not just for kids, it's for adults too. You can find friends, a sympathetic ear and great support as well as a lot of laughs among the Scout and Guide communities, we may have a spat every so often but then we are a family, brothers and sisters. Getting away from your own problems and getting involved in activities is another thing B-P wanted it to be, and it works.


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## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> Working as a volunteer with children is hugely therapeutic,  they are young, funny and great fun. Too many people miss out on fun these days and fun is healing. Scouting and Guiding is a game, B-P designed it that way, it's not just for kids, it's for adults too. You can find friends, a sympathetic ear and great support as well as a lot of laughs among the Scout and Guide communities, we may have a spat every so often but then we are a family, brothers and sisters. Getting away from your own problems and getting involved in activities is another thing B-P wanted it to be, and it works.



Kids can sometimes be enlightening and very funny. That slice of life was left to my Sister, but yeah food for thought. I will keep what you suggest in mind. The latter part of your post has some resonance with me. I believe that is why I am enjoying Elements MA so much, I'm getting away forgetting and learning.


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## Tames D

Tez3 said:


> Some are strippers. Here we are inclusive of *everyone*, straight, gay, male, female, transgender, strippers, clergy, disabled, *whatever all are welcome* to Scouting and Guiding.



Everyone? pedifiles, murderers, arsonists, spousal abusers....


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## Tez3

Tames D said:


> Everyone? pedifiles, murderers, arsonists, spousal abusers....



For adults in the UK working with children we have the DBS scheme, anyone working and/or volunteering with children and vulnerable adults has to have one. Of course it only works if you have a record but until we are issued with crystal balls it will have to do. In Guiding we have to have two referees, of course that again isn't a total surety. We do have procedures though to safeguard the children as much as is humanly possible.
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service/about


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## PhotonGuy

I never said the martial arts and boy scouts are the exact same thing, I was saying they've got some things in common, and that some of the concepts that you apply to one can be applied to the other. And other than that, what does strippers have to do with this?


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## Tames D

Tez3 said:


> For adults in the UK working with children we have the DBS scheme, anyone working and/or volunteering with children and vulnerable adults has to have one. Of course it only works if you have a record but until we are issued with crystal balls it will have to do. In Guiding we have to have two referees, of course that again isn't a total surety. We do have procedures though to safeguard the children as much as is humanly possible.
> https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/disclosure-and-barring-service/about



So,it would be safe to say that not "everyone is welcome"?


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## Badger1777

I can see the similarity. Martial arts is, in my opinion, little to do with the mechanics of the moves. Its more about the mental focus and discipline required in the endeavour to perfect those moves, and apply them, and most importantly, NOT apply them at all if we can help it. I was never in cubs or scouts but I had a fair few friends that were. They had the same mental focus and discipline and resourcefulness.


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## PhotonGuy

Badger1777 said:


> I can see the similarity. Martial arts is, in my opinion, little to do with the mechanics of the moves. Its more about the mental focus and discipline required in the endeavour to perfect those moves, and apply them, and most importantly, NOT apply them at all if we can help it. I was never in cubs or scouts but I had a fair few friends that were. They had the same mental focus and discipline and resourcefulness.



That would depend on the style of martial arts whether or not it stresses the physical aspects such as the moves or the mental focus. For instance, Muai Thai is practically all physical, or at least its mostly physical whereas a style such as Tai Chi places a much bigger emphases on the mental focus that you mention. Boy Scouts can also put good emphasis on physical aspects. Part of being a good scout is being physically strong and some of the merit badges such as sports, swimming, athletics, and physical fitness put a big emphasis on physical attributes and some of the badges I just mentioned are required for Eagle Scout. Overall, though, I would say that both martial arts and boy scouts have both physical and mental aspects in them.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I never said the martial arts and boy scouts are the exact same thing, I was saying they've got some things in common, and that some of the concepts that you apply to one can be applied to the other. And other than that, what does strippers have to do with this?



A good stripper needs to be flexible, physically fit, mentally agile and prepared. Preferably honest as well. Sounds like they have as much to do with martial arts as scouting.


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## PhotonGuy

I've never heard if a stripper having a rank or of any ranking system used in stripping. Boy Scouts on the other hand does have a ranking system and so do many of the styles of martial arts.


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## Tames D

Some strippers are rank.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never heard if a stripper having a rank or of any ranking system used in stripping. Boy Scouts on the other hand does have a ranking system and so do many of the styles of martial arts.



But not all. The strippers to scouts comparison is therefore valid.


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## drop bear

Tez3 said:


> Some are strippers. Here we are inclusive of everyone, straight, gay, male, female, transgender, strippers, clergy, disabled, whatever all are welcome to Scouting and Guiding.




Yeah England and Australia. They have just let the gays in over in America land. And still can't cope with girls.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> That would depend on the style of martial arts whether or not it stresses the physical aspects such as the moves or the mental focus. For instance, Muai Thai is practically all physical, or at least its mostly physical whereas a style such as Tai Chi places a much bigger emphases on the mental focus that you mention. Boy Scouts can also put good emphasis on physical aspects. Part of being a good scout is being physically strong and some of the merit badges such as sports, swimming, athletics, and physical fitness put a big emphasis on physical attributes and some of the badges I just mentioned are required for Eagle Scout. Overall, though, I would say that both martial arts and boy scouts have both physical and mental aspects in them.



True. This organisation in my experience was only one in the seventies that catered for disabled and kids with mild to extreme learning conditions. My fond memories of it come from being around my peers without the usual prejudice that was rife in those days. The Cubs made me feel wanted and safe, but more than that, it later transpired in adulthood that the Cubs mentally prepared me for the world that I was eventually going to have to walk through. The average human (what I term a normal) really does not understand how hurtful it is to be ostracised from society. I had it myself when trying to befriend kids, only to have their parents putting a stop to it because I was not right in the head.


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## Tez3

You can compare a good many things to martial arts if you wished, not really sure why you'd want to. Scouting and Guiding are world wide organisations with many of it's members doing things that go far beyond what would be considered usual for a youth organisation, in many countries it is actually a lifeline for those less able or less wealthy. This year in the UK we are celebrating the Big Brownie Birthday, 100 years of Brownies the younger girls aged 7-10, the Guides had their centenary a few years back. during the First World War the War Office had Guides as messengers because they knew they could be trusted. Looking back overall  those years there is some tremendous stories of how Guiding not just changed lives but saved them, there's stories of huge heroism in times of war, inspiring stories as well as sad ones. Soon after the Allies landed on the D Day beaches senior Girl Guides were packing up to follow them, they set up refugee camps, children's groups and helped those who had been newly liberated. All over the world Guides and Scouts are doing things that are amazing. Don't dismiss it as just being a kids 'thing' it is for people of all ages, youth is the focus but there's room for everyone. The majority of organisations stay true to B-Ps aims of not being focussed on any one religion but of promoting spirituality and of being welcoming to everyone, it's a huge shame that one of the biggest doesn't but perhaps that will change one day.

this is what I'm, part of http://www.wagggs.org/en/home


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## Transk53

Yeah Tez. As with most things that people do not understand, they have to disparage that what they do not want to understand. That is what annoys me!!


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## Dirty Dog

Transk53 said:


> Yeah Tez. As with most things that people do not understand, they have to disparage that what they do not want to understand. That is what annoys me!!



Who disparaged scouting? I've seen a lot of posts in this thread poking fun at silly comparisons, but none dogging scouting...


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## Badger1777

PhotonGuy said:


> That would depend on the style of martial arts whether or not it stresses the physical aspects such as the moves or the mental focus. For instance, Muai Thai is practically all physical, or at least its mostly physical whereas a style such as Tai Chi places a much bigger emphases on the mental focus that you mention. Boy Scouts can also put good emphasis on physical aspects. Part of being a good scout is being physically strong and some of the merit badges such as sports, swimming, athletics, and physical fitness put a big emphasis on physical attributes and some of the badges I just mentioned are required for Eagle Scout. Overall, though, I would say that both martial arts and boy scouts have both physical and mental aspects in them.



Sorry I didn't make my point very well. I'm not suggesting that martial arts is not that physical. The martial arts I've experienced (karate, kung fu and now tang soo do) are very, very physical. In addition to the general strength, fitness and agility training, the actual moves are practiced intensively with a view to perfecting them. But as our teacher says, we aim for perfection, but can never achieve it because there is always room for improvement.

It would be easy to just say "this is too hard" and walk away, or to say of a particular kick which you think is perfectly adequate, "this will do" and stop trying to improve it. In sparring, it would be easy to say you've found a set of techniques that work well for you, so this will do, rather than constantly observing and learning from both your opponent and your self. But of course we don't take those easy options. When dripping with sweat and tempted to ease off or stop, we keep working hard. When that kick is about right, we keep trying to improve it just a bit more. When sparring, when we're not in a real fight and are not really going to get hurt, we still apply that mental focus that zones out everything that is nothing to do with the current situation. Without that mental focus, a martial arts class would be nothing more than an amateur dance session. But of course it doesn't stop there. We don't just use the mental focus we naturally have, we build on that mental focus in order to enable us to achieve more. Sometimes its obvious we're doing so, such as in tai chi, sometimes less obvious but still there. That trained mental power is useful of course in martial arts, but it leaks out into just about every aspect of our day to day lives, benefiting us there too.


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## Transk53

Dirty Dog said:


> Who disparaged scouting? I've seen a lot of posts in this thread poking fun at silly comparisons, but none dogging scouting...



What, oh no, was not directed towards any peeps on here. I wear my heart on my sleeve sometimes and forget where I am.


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## PhotonGuy

Every martial art does have a ranking system of some sort. Even those styles that don't use different colored belts or patches on the uniform or any other type of official rank, there is the instructor/student hierarchy and that is your ranking system right there.


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Every martial art does have a ranking system of some sort. Even those styles that don't use different colored belts or patches on the uniform or any other type of official rank, there is the instructor/student hierarchy and that is your ranking system right there.



A "ranking" system that is every bit as valid among strippers. Just watch Burlesque for proof. The stripper/scout comparison remains valid. Pointless, but valid. Like so many things. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Every martial art does have a ranking system of some sort. Even those styles that don't use different colored belts or patches on the uniform or any other type of official rank, there is the instructor/student hierarchy and that is your ranking system right there.




We don't have a 'rank' system in Guiding, we have certain 'titles' such as district commissioner which means  they do specific tasks but they aren't jobs we aren't paid, it is a girl led organisation, the girls decide what they do, what badges, what activities and what we campaign for, we don't have a hierarchy, we are all sisters in Guiding.


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## PhotonGuy

Boy Scouts has a clearly defined ranking system that is more complicated than just having a student/instructor hierarchy. So do most martial arts. Although not all martial arts do have such ranking systems most do have a ranking system that involves colored belts or in some cases it might involve some other method of designating rank such as patches on the uniform. I've never heard of any stripper organization that has a ranking system that complicated. So, since most martial arts do have such a ranking system, not even some stripper organizations have such a system let alone most so that is one of the things that martial arts and boy scouts have in common but that stripping doesn't.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Boy Scouts has a clearly defined ranking system that is more complicated than just having a student/instructor hierarchy. So do most martial arts. Although not all martial arts do have such ranking systems most do have a ranking system that involves colored belts or in some cases it might involve some other method of designating rank such as patches on the uniform. I've never heard of any stripper organization that has a ranking system that complicated. So, since most martial arts do have such a ranking system, not even some stripper organizations have such a system let alone most so that is one of the things that martial arts and boy scouts have in common but that stripping doesn't.



Ok, may I correct you on something. When you speak of 'Boy Scouts' you need to remember that you are talking about the Boy Scouts of America, when you say they have a complicated rank structure you need to understand the scouts of your country have this not Scouts in general. Scouting is worldwide, there are millions of Scouts in a huge variety of countries. While remaining, hopefully, true to B-P's aims and ideals each country's association will run things differently so when you say Boy Scouts do this or have that you need to remember that yours is only one association among many so your argument doesn't hold water about Boy Scouts and martial arts I'm afraid.

Mission, Vision and Strategy | Scout.org


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## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Boy Scouts has a clearly defined ranking system that is more complicated than just having a student/instructor hierarchy. So do most martial arts. Although not all martial arts do have such ranking systems most do have a ranking system that involves colored belts or in some cases it might involve some other method of designating rank such as patches on the uniform. I've never heard of any stripper organization that has a ranking system that complicated. So, since most martial arts do have such a ranking system, not even some stripper organizations have such a system let alone most so that is one of the things that martial arts and boy scouts have in common but that stripping doesn't.



At this point it's pretty obvious to all but the most obtuse that strippers have as much in common with Scouts as Scouts do with Martial Arts.
If you have a point other than "it's possible to find vague parallels between completely unrelated things" perhaps you'd care to make it?


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Every martial art does have a ranking system of some sort. Even those styles that don't use different colored belts or patches on the uniform or any other type of official rank, there is the instructor/student hierarchy and that is your ranking system right there.



Everything thing in life has a ranking system from the little Ant colony up to the Royal Families of the world. They are all different, but have the same core basis. The one I have to work within is a nightmare. As a senior officer, I have guys under me (not literally), plus two managers above. Rank and file, used to be the domain of the plebs many moons ago lol.


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## Tez3

Transk53 said:


> Everything thing in life has a ranking system from the little Ant colony up to the Royal Families of the world. They are all different, but have the same core basis. The one I have to work within is a nightmare. As a senior officer, I have guys under me (not literally), plus two managers above. Rank and file, used to be the domain of the plebs many moons ago lol.




True but most ranking systems are fairly simple, I don't know why American Boy Scouts would have a 'complicated' one. When I was in Scouting in Germany ( British Scouting for the Military kids) we often met American Scouts (like us) on camps etc, they didn't seem to have any particular ranking system that wasn't the norm. Someone has to be in charge and they have to have some helpers, Scouting has always emphasised teaching leadership skills so the kids were encouraged as much as possible to do things and decide things for themselves with leaders giving guidance rather than 'orders'. 
In martial arts as an unpaid instructor I don't feel the 'ranking' structures of the instructor is so much a hierarchy of who is in charge, who gives the orders, who is the boss as much as who is more experienced. Perhaps in a martial arts business this would be different but most clubs and gyms I know are run as 'not for profit' not businesses. 
Martial arts shares with Scouting a few things but then you can say that about any thing. Cooking shares things with martial arts as does dog training! Most of the activities humans do share something in common with each other. How could they not? it is a stretch however to compare Scouting and martial arts specifically. They have some similarities but aren't the same at all so no, Boy Scouts aren't martial arts.


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## Carol

I don't know all the minutiae about the BSA, they never let me in   But it isn't particularly complicated.  "Scout" for joining, then "Tenderfoot", "Second Class" and "First Class"

The Cub Scouts (for younger boys) have different divisions, but they aren't ranks.  They are largely to keep the activities age appropriate.

Scouting for All Ages


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## Tez3

Carol said:


> I don't know all the minutiae about the BSA, they never let me in   But it isn't particularly complicated.  "Scout" for joining, then "Tenderfoot", "Second Class" and "First Class"
> 
> The Cub Scouts (for younger boys) have different divisions, but they aren't ranks.  They are largely to keep the activities age appropriate.
> 
> Scouting for All Ages



That's what I thought too, I couldn't understand the 'complicated ranks comment'.


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## Carol

I don't quite get it either.   

Its possible that the perception of complexity is based on some of the terminology involved with a boy's progression within the BSA.  I think there are enough references in common culture that most folks in the US understand what an Eagle Scout or a First Class Scout is.  But there are other terms that be more familiar to folks directly involved in scouting.  Until I started volunteering at the park, I didn't know what a Webelo was (4th-5th graders), or what the Arrow of Light was (a 'crossover' ceremony from cub scouts to boy scouts).   Didn't make that much of a difference in what I was doing as a park volunteer, but it was kind of cool to understand what my young campers were getting excited about


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Ok, may I correct you on something. When you speak of 'Boy Scouts' you need to remember that you are talking about the Boy Scouts of America, when you say they have a complicated rank structure you need to understand the scouts of your country have this not Scouts in general. Scouting is worldwide, there are millions of Scouts in a huge variety of countries. While remaining, hopefully, true to B-P's aims and ideals each country's association will run things differently so when you say Boy Scouts do this or have that you need to remember that yours is only one association among many so your argument doesn't hold water about Boy Scouts and martial arts I'm afraid.
> 
> Mission, Vision and Strategy | Scout.org



If anything, that makes scouts even more like the martial arts. You say there are many different types of scouting organizations in many different countries aside from BSA in the USA. Well there are many types of martial arts, many types of styles, many different stories of origin of the various martial arts from various different countries. Some martial arts have ranking systems, some don't. Some boyscout organizations have ranking systems such as BSA and Im not too familiar with other scouting organizations but some of them might not have rank. Some scouting organizations are very old and very traditional in their approach and some might be more new and more modern just like different styles of martial arts. So if anything, the fact that theres different scouting organizations aside from BSA and that they do things differently, that makes it even more similar to the martial arts.


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## PhotonGuy

Carol said:


> I don't know all the minutiae about the BSA, they never let me in   But it isn't particularly complicated.  "Scout" for joining, then "Tenderfoot", "Second Class" and "First Class"
> 
> The Cub Scouts (for younger boys) have different divisions, but they aren't ranks.  They are largely to keep the activities age appropriate.
> 
> Scouting for All Ages



It gets complicated when you get into all the different requirements for rank. You have to be able to demonstrate some basic scouting skills for the early ranks. For the more advanced ranks you have to get these things called merit badges which show you have some proficiency in a given field depending on what badges you get. There are certain specific merit badges you need to get for certain ranks and then you have to get so many merit badges that are "free electives" which you choose from any of the 100+ merit badges that are available. Aside from merit badges you also have to do community service, you have to take on various positions in your troop, (quartermaster, assistant patrol leader, patrol leader, ect. and that in and of itself is a rank of some sort.) And, to get your Eagle badge, the highest rank, you have to do a service project that you lead, that and some other requirements. So that is where it gets complicated.


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## PhotonGuy

One of the more obvious similarities between Boy Scouts and the martial arts is that Boy Scouts, assuming we're taking about BSA, they've got the highest rank which is Eagle Scout and in martial arts that use colored belt systems, usually the highest color is black. That being said, you could say that Eagle Scout is the BSA equivalent of Black Belt. Both ranks are shown with a symbol that's part of your uniform, in the martial arts its a black belt worn on your waist and in BSA its an eagle badge you wear on the front of your boy scout shirt. Now, anybody can buy a black belt from a martial arts store for a few dollars but that doesn't mean they've earned it and anybody can buy an eagle badge from a Boy Scouts store but that doesn't mean they've earned it. So, a person can own a black belt or an eagle badge but that does not mean they've achieved those ranks. For that reason, if somebody were to mail me a black belt I would want them to put in the return address so I could know where to send it back, same thing as if somebody were to mail me an eagle badge, I would send it back because Im satisfied with achieving the rank, not owning the physical symbol of the rank. So, Boy Scouts and Martial Arts aren't exactly the same thing but this is one of the more obvious things they have in common.


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## frank raud

jks9199 said:


> Build your case...  How are martial arts like Boy Scouts?


 They are both run along paramilitary lines?


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## frank raud

PhotonGuy said:


> One of the more obvious similarities between Boy Scouts and the martial arts is that Boy Scouts, assuming we're taking about BSA, they've got the highest rank which is Eagle Scout and in martial arts that use colored belt systems, usually the highest color is black. That being said, you could say that Eagle Scout is the BSA equivalent of Black Belt. Both ranks are shown with a symbol that's part of your uniform, in the martial arts its a black belt worn on your waist and in BSA its an eagle badge you wear on the front of your boy scout shirt. Now, anybody can buy a black belt from a martial arts store for a few dollars but that doesn't mean they've earned it and anybody can buy an eagle badge from a Boy Scouts store but that doesn't mean they've earned it. So, a person can own a black belt or an eagle badge but that does not mean they've achieved those ranks. For that reason, if somebody were to mail me a black belt I would want them to put in the return address so I could know where to send it back, same thing as if somebody were to mail me an eagle badge, I would send it back because Im satisfied with achieving the rank, not owning the physical symbol of the rank. So, Boy Scouts and Martial Arts aren't exactly the same thing but this is one of the more obvious things they have in common.



So....you not accepting rank you haven't earned from an organization is something they both have in common? Why does my brain hurt when I try to read this?


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## jks9199

Yeesh...  what a mess.

Look, the BSA has essentially 2 parallel rank process.  One can be compared to technical development: it's earning merit badges, fulfilling requirements, and so on to advance from having nothing on your shirt pocket through Scout, Tenderfoot, Second Class, First Class, Star, Life, and finally Eagle.  Along with that are the leadership positions in the troop.  These are generally things like Patrol Leader, Senior Patrol Leader, Jr. Asst. Scoutmaster, and staff positions like Quartermaster, Secretary, and Treasurer.  The exact structure of these will vary with the size of the troop.   I guess we can make a little comparison to some martial arts, where there is a difference between getting a black belt or other recognition of skill, and a teaching license or permission.

But, really, to go much beyond this -- the comparison is being stretched worse than the Commerce Clause.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> If anything, that makes scouts even more like the martial arts. You say there are many different types of scouting organizations in many different countries aside from BSA in the USA. Well there are many types of martial arts, many types of styles, many different stories of origin of the various martial arts from various different countries. Some martial arts have ranking systems, some don't. Some boyscout organizations have ranking systems such as BSA and Im not too familiar with other scouting organizations but some of them might not have rank. Some scouting organizations are very old and very traditional in their approach and some might be more new and more modern just like different styles of martial arts. So if anything, the fact that theres different scouting organizations aside from BSA and that they do things differently, that makes it even more similar to the martial arts.



And even more like strippers, as well.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog, you've made it clear that you aren't a fan of my posts, so with all due respect, might I ask why you even bother to read them let alone respond to them?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Well you could at the very least say that Black Belt and Eagle Scout are equivalents, where one is for the martial arts the other is for boy scouts.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Dirty Dog, you've made it clear that you aren't a fan of my posts, so with all due respect, might I ask why you even bother to read them let alone respond to them?



Same reason I keep working with students who are struggling. I keep hoping you'll learn something. 
And I'm hardly alone. Have you noticed that the vast majority of the replies assume your posts are not to be taken seriously? 
I'm just blunter than most. 
After all, this entire thread is just you repeating for the umpteenth time your obsession with rank. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you could at the very least say that Black Belt and Eagle Scout are equivalents, where one is for the martial arts the other is for boy scouts.



No. They are not remotely equivalent. No more so than being the best pole dancer in town is equivalent to being an Eagle Scout or a black belt. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> If anything, that makes scouts even more like the martial arts. You say there are many different types of scouting organizations in many different countries aside from BSA in the USA. Well there are many types of martial arts, many types of styles, many different stories of origin of the various martial arts from various different countries. Some martial arts have ranking systems, some don't. Some boyscout organizations have ranking systems such as BSA and Im not too familiar with other scouting organizations but some of them might not have rank. Some scouting organizations are very old and very traditional in their approach and some might be more new and more modern just like different styles of martial arts. So if anything, the fact that theres different scouting organizations aside from BSA and that they do things differently, that makes it even more similar to the martial arts.



NO, there are NOT 'different types' of Scouting, it is all Scouting, just that there are some differences in how organisations are run. All Scout organisations come under the umbrella world organisation. Please look up your history of the founding of Scouting ie Lord Baden-Powell founded Scouting and each country that has an organisation tailors it towards there youth but it is nothing like martial arts. If you persist in thinking that you persist in remaining ignorant and wrong, and probably going against scout Laws.

Please read up on the Founder of Scouting and see what his aims and values were, please educate yourself as you are doing Scouting no favours at all.

http://scouts.org.uk/media/52831/baden_powell.pdf


----------



## Transk53

frank raud said:


> They are both run along paramilitary lines?



Once upon a time there was a certain organisation in a certain European country that advocated lets just say, a hearty exercise and hunting regime.


----------



## Tez3

This is Lord Baden-Powell's last message, *to all Scouts*, found after he had died, it's one that should be thought about rather than whether Scouting and martial arts are the same, they aren't and life is too short to ponder that question anymore, oh and Shana Tova xx

 
 
 
B-P prepared a farewell message to Scouts, for publication after his death.
 The message follows...
 _"Dear Scouts - If you have ever seen the play "Peter Pan" you will remember how the pirate chief was
always making his dying speech because he was afraid that possibly when the time came for him to die he might not have
time to get it off his chest. It is much the same with me, and so, although I am not at this moment dying, I shall be doing so
one of these days and I want to send you a parting word of good-bye.
Remember, it is the last time you will ever hear from me, so think it over.
I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have as happy a life too.
I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness doesn't come from being rich, nor merely
from being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and
strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man.
Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented
with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one.
But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you
found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but
have done your best. "Be Prepared" in this way, to live happy and to die happy- stick to your Scout Promise
always when you have ceased to be a boy - and God help you to do it.
Your friend,
Robert Baden-Powell"
_


----------



## Transk53

Tez3 said:


> This is Lord Baden-Powell's last message, *to all Scouts*, found after he had died, it's one that should be thought about rather than whether Scouting and martial arts are the same, they aren't and life is too short to ponder that question anymore, oh and Shana Tova xx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> B-P prepared a farewell message to Scouts, for publication after his death.
> The message follows...
> _"Dear Scouts - If you have ever seen the play "Peter Pan" you will remember how the pirate chief was
> always making his dying speech because he was afraid that possibly when the time came for him to die he might not have
> time to get it off his chest. It is much the same with me, and so, although I am not at this moment dying, I shall be doing so
> one of these days and I want to send you a parting word of good-bye.
> Remember, it is the last time you will ever hear from me, so think it over.
> I have had a most happy life and I want each one of you to have as happy a life too.
> I believe that God put us in this jolly world to be happy and enjoy life. Happiness doesn't come from being rich, nor merely
> from being successful in your career, nor by self-indulgence. One step towards happiness is to make yourself healthy and
> strong while you are a boy, so that you can be useful and so you can enjoy life when you are a man.
> Nature study will show you how full of beautiful and wonderful things God has made the world for you to enjoy. Be contented
> with what you have got and make the best of it. Look on the bright side of things instead of the gloomy one.
> But the real way to get happiness is by giving out happiness to other people. Try and leave this world a little better than you
> found it and when your turn comes to die, you can die happy in feeling that at any rate you have not wasted your time but
> have done your best. "Be Prepared" in this way, to live happy and to die happy- stick to your Scout Promise
> always when you have ceased to be a boy - and God help you to do it.
> Your friend,
> Robert Baden-Powell"
> _



Indeed. He lived a life worth living and brought joy to those in need. Something that most people, myself included, cannot claim.


----------



## Cirdan

frank raud said:


> They are both run along paramilitary lines?



Are you _trying_ to make a case for stripping being a martial art? 
(Hey is that Tez in the audience?)


----------



## Tez3

Yep, that will be me front row! The one on the right looks a bit pensive lol.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you could at the very least say that Black Belt and Eagle Scout are equivalents, where one is for the martial arts the other is for boy scouts.



Not really. Black belt is often only the beginning of real training. The palm awards after Eagle are really little more than participation awards. In that comparison, black belt would be more like the Arrow of Light.

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Not really. Black belt is often only the beginning of real training. The palm awards after Eagle are really little more than participation awards. In that comparison, black belt would be more like the Arrow of Light.
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



Well you could say that Eagle Scout is only the beginning in terms of learning about being prepared and developing the various virtues and concepts taught in Scouts. Although this is rare, I've known of Scouts who have earned every merit badge there is in Boy Scouts. To get an Eagle badge you're required to earn 21 merit badges and in Boy Scouts there are over 100 merit badges you can earn and there have been cases of Scouts who have earned all 100 plus merit badges, so for them Eagle was just the beginning.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you could say that Eagle Scout is only the beginning in terms of learning about being prepared and developing the various virtues and concepts taught in Scouts. Although this is rare, I've known of Scouts who have earned every merit badge there is in Boy Scouts. To get an Eagle badge you're required to earn 21 merit badges and in Boy Scouts there are over 100 merit badges you can earn and there have been cases of Scouts who have earned all 100 plus merit badges, so for them Eagle was just the beginning.



You could say a lot of things but if you do it's really flogging a dead horse isn't it? Scouting is Scouting, it's a Game ( B-P said it was before you argue), martial arts aren't.


----------



## Cirdan

Please get off the dead horse now, I want to eat it before it spoils. Horse sausage is nomnom.


----------



## donald1

I've heard a lot of weird metaphors but dead horse...?


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you could say that Eagle Scout is only the beginning in terms of learning about being prepared and developing the various virtues and concepts taught in Scouts. Although this is rare, I've known of Scouts who have earned every merit badge there is in Boy Scouts. To get an Eagle badge you're required to earn 21 merit badges and in Boy Scouts there are over 100 merit badges you can earn and there have been cases of Scouts who have earned all 100 plus merit badges, so for them Eagle was just the beginning.



Well you cold say [a lot of really silly stuff]. It still doesn't make Scouting any more like martial arts training than pole dancing.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> You could say a lot of things but if you do it's really flogging a dead horse isn't it? Scouting is Scouting, it's a Game ( B-P said it was before you argue), martial arts aren't.



Scouting is a game? I beg to differ.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Scouting is a game? I beg to differ.



So now you're claiming that the man who FOUNDED Scouting is wrong?

:rofl:


----------



## Buka

I hadn't read this thread until today. Scouts, strippers and martial arts......now I have to get the image out of my head of beautiful strippers teaching scouts the closed guard.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Same reason I keep working with students who are struggling. I keep hoping you'll learn something.
> And I'm hardly alone. Have you noticed that the vast majority of the replies assume your posts are not to be taken seriously?
> I'm just blunter than most.
> After all, this entire thread is just you repeating for the umpteenth time your obsession with rank.



Than perhaps I shouldn't take your responses so personally. The way I see it, it looks like you're trying to cause trouble with many of your responses to my posts but you're pointing out that that's not the case. You're not still bitter about my comments about martial arts programs in YMCAs are you?

As for rank, Im not all that obsessed with it. I personally think, and this is just me, that making it to first degree black belt is a good goal and after that rank doesn't concern me all that much. As for Boy Scouts, I made it to Star and Im fine with that. The reason I didn't continue with Scouts is because of a combination of a family situation and the situation with my troop. Besides, I didn't have a burning desire to be an Eagle Scout. If I did I would've found a way of doing it, I would've joined another troop, ect. But as I said, I was fine with Star.


----------



## Transk53

donald1 said:


> I've heard a lot of weird metaphors but dead horse...?



"To flog a dead horse" Not sure about the origin of the saying, but in the UK it generally means one is looking at a hopeless situation.


----------



## Cirdan

I see a serious problem about strippers with black belts... it _covers_ two inches of the ***


----------



## Carol

Cirdan said:


> I see a serious problem about strippers with black belts... it _covers_ two inches of the ***



But doesn't stripping involve taking something off?  :idunno:


----------



## Transk53

Cirdan said:


> I see a serious problem about strippers with black belts... it _covers_ two inches of the ***



Does it cover the fanny?


----------



## Blindside

Comes from beating or flogging a dead horse to try to get it to move.
Sent from my Lumia 900 using Board Express


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Than perhaps I shouldn't take your responses so personally. The way I see it, it looks like you're trying to cause trouble with many of your responses to my posts but you're pointing out that that's not the case.



I'm not causing trouble. I'm pointing out factual errors and just plain silliness.



PhotonGuy said:


> You're not still bitter about my comments about martial arts programs in YMCAs are you?



Still? Never was, so I can't "still" be. You're speaking from ignorance. Ignorance doesn't rate anger or bitterness. At most, rueful amusement. Or public laughter. 



PhotonGuy said:


> As for rank, Im not all that obsessed with it. I personally think, and this is just me, that making it to first degree black belt is a good goal and after that rank doesn't concern me all that much. As for Boy Scouts, I made it to Star and Im fine with that. The reason I didn't continue with Scouts is because of a combination of a family situation and the situation with my troop. Besides, I didn't have a burning desire to be an Eagle Scout. If I did I would've found a way of doing it, I would've joined another troop, ect. But as I said, I was fine with Star.



Your posts indicate otherwise.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Cirdan said:


> I see a serious problem about strippers with black belts... it _covers_ two inches of the ***



Well, but it doubles as a garter belt...


----------



## Carol

Transk53 said:


> Does it cover the fanny?



That depends on which side of the Atlantic you are on

*ducks for cover before Tez clobbers me*

:redcaptur


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Scouting is a game? I beg to differ.



*Lord Robert Baden-Powell the founder of Scouting called it a Game*, I'm not going to disagree with the man who came up with the idea of Scouting, are you?


----------



## Tez3

Scouting is not an abstruse or difficult science: rather* it is a jolly game *if you take it in the right light. In the same time it is educative, and (like Mercy) it is apt to benefit him that giveth as well as him that receives. 

_Aids to Scoutmastership_ (1920) Preface. Lord Baden-Powell.

Think about what scouting is and what it is for, read the quotes of B-P to find it's real meaning, you don't seem to have grasped the true concept of what Scouting is, comparing it to anything is to demean Scouting and that other thing. There is always a place for people in scouting whatever there age, one doesn't have to leave, you can always be a Scout.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> "To flog a dead horse" Not sure about the origin of the saying, but in the UK it generally means one is looking at a hopeless situation.



We do it all the time and if you ever studied history you will know what I mean. An example will be how, to this day, people are still debating whether or not Japan should've been nuked in WWII. The fact of the matter is, had Japan not been nuked than the argument would've been that Japan should've been nuked and what the outcome would've been, but what it all comes down to is that Japan was nuked and arguing about it now would be pointless since its been done and what's done is done and arguing about it now won't change the past. So, people are flogging a dead horse in that regard.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not causing trouble. I'm pointing out factual errors and just plain silliness.



Right. Well than I interpreted you wrong.



Dirty Dog said:


> Still? Never was, so I can't "still" be. You're speaking from ignorance. Ignorance doesn't rate anger or bitterness. At most, rueful amusement. Or public laughter.



Than I stand corrected about martial arts programs in YMCAs.



Dirty Dog said:


> Your posts indicate otherwise.



You could say Im obsessed with achievement, and rank is a type of achievement.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> We do it all the time and if you ever studied history you will know what I mean. An example will be how, to this day, people are still debating whether or not Japan should've been nuked in WWII. The fact of the matter is, had Japan not been nuked than the argument would've been that Japan should've been nuked and what the outcome would've been, but what it all comes down to is that Japan was nuked and arguing about it now would be pointless since its been done and what's done is done and arguing about it now won't change the past. So, people are flogging a dead horse in that regard.



'Japan nuked' disrespectful or what! The argument whether nuclear weapons should have been used is often a moral one, it could also be said to be a redundant argument but either way it is not flogging a dead horse. I think you misunderstand the expression.  There is something that can be learned from the 'Japanese argument', there is never anything to learn from flogging a dead horse, that's the point, the horse being dead no amount of flogging can bring it to get up and gallop off, it's dead, deceased, no more, defunct, departed, perished, it is no more.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> You could say Im obsessed with achievement, and rank is a type of achievement.



No, it is not. SKILL is an achievement. Rank is something you can buy over the internet.
Try here. You can get all the rank you could possibly want. What you will not get is any skill, or any useful training.

The difference between rank and skill has been pointed out to you many times. That you *still* don't grasp the difference supports my statement.


----------



## Tez3

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it is not. SKILL is an achievement. Rank is something you can buy over the internet.
> Try here. You can get all the rank you could possibly want. What you will not get is any skill, or any useful training.
> 
> The difference between rank and skill has been pointed out to you many times. That you *still* don't grasp the difference supports my statement.



Hence the military expression "don't mistake your rank with my authority" :supcool:


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> No, it is not. SKILL is an achievement. Rank is something you can buy over the internet.
> Try here. You can get all the rank you could possibly want. What you will not get is any skill, or any useful training.
> 
> The difference between rank and skill has been pointed out to you many times. That you *still* don't grasp the difference supports my statement.



It would depend on the conditions in which you got the rank. If you got the rank over the internet than no it doesn't require any skill and there is no achievement involved. If you get a rank by completing a hard test or series of tests than it would obviously require skill or ability of some sort. So, whether or not rank does involve skill depends on how you got it.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> It would depend on the conditions in which you got the rank. If you got the rank over the internet than no it doesn't require any skill and there is no achievement involved. If you get a rank by completing a hard test or series of tests than it would obviously require skill or ability of some sort. So, whether or not rank does involve skill depends on how you got it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


>



If you disagree with me than say how.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> If you disagree with me than say how.



Well, you want me say to how I disagree with you? Okay, well you say something, then I disagree with you, that's *how* it's done.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Lets try again, what is it exactly that you disagree with me on?


----------



## Rich Parsons

PhotonGuy said:


> People on MartialTalk have said that martial arts training is not the same thing as Boy Scouts. Well, they're not exactly the same thing but they do have some stuff in common. And they do have some of the same principals. And, if you're going to say that Martial Arts is nothing like Boy Scouts I would have to say you're wrong and you really can't say that with any credibility if you weren't ever a Boy Scout yourself. I was a Boy Scout so I know.



I was kicked out of 6 troops. One for knowing how to tie knots before the knot class. Another for not walking through the Poison Ivy as the rest of my patroll did. I called it to their attention but the seior ignored me. I was told not to come back as I did not follow orders well. And others for similar situations. What many were trying to teach I already knew. I had parents who took me camping and let me plays with tools as a kid. 

As to martial arts, not all martial arts have a creed and or higher calling or bring forth providence or try to project a religious feel. They just teach one who to move and fight and or defend themselves. And those that have adopted it in the second half of the 20th century did so so they could have a me too or for the little kids to give them something to say you broke these rules, now do this or else leave. 

So, NO, Martial Arts are not like the boy scouts. Some of the characteristics can be found in some martail arts, yet not all.  
NA <> BS 
A subset of MA [TKD,..., ] has some attributes within in common with a subset of BS[Principals, ...,]

Apples are not like Orange. Different colors and different taste and texture. Yes both are fruit. 
TKD is not like Karate. Yes they both punch, and kick, yet they can have a very different approach or mindset to how they present or share the techniques. 

To me What I learned (or did not learn) in the BS, has nothing to do with what I learned in the MA. 

MA <> BS


----------



## PhotonGuy

Rich Parsons said:


> I was kicked out of 6 troops. One for knowing how to tie knots before the knot class. Another for not walking through the Poison Ivy as the rest of my patroll did. I called it to their attention but the seior ignored me. I was told not to come back as I did not follow orders well. And others for similar situations. What many were trying to teach I already knew. I had parents who took me camping and let me plays with tools as a kid.
> 
> As to martial arts, not all martial arts have a creed and or higher calling or bring forth providence or try to project a religious feel. They just teach one who to move and fight and or defend themselves. And those that have adopted it in the second half of the 20th century did so so they could have a me too or for the little kids to give them something to say you broke these rules, now do this or else leave.
> 
> So, NO, Martial Arts are not like the boy scouts. Some of the characteristics can be found in some martail arts, yet not all.
> NA <> BS
> A subset of MA [TKD,..., ] has some attributes within in common with a subset of BS[Principals, ...,]
> 
> Apples are not like Orange. Different colors and different taste and texture. Yes both are fruit.
> TKD is not like Karate. Yes they both punch, and kick, yet they can have a very different approach or mindset to how they present or share the techniques.
> 
> To me What I learned (or did not learn) in the BS, has nothing to do with what I learned in the MA.
> 
> MA <> BS



Well MA and BS obviously aren't exactly the same thing, they're in fact very different in a lot of ways, but that's not to say that they've got some things in common, they apply some of the same principals.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Well MA and BS obviously aren't exactly the same thing, they're in fact very different in a lot of ways, but that's not to say that they've got some things in common, they apply some of the same principals.



Well, they're both compound words in English.  I guess that's a way they're alike.  And they're both activities that people do.  That's another. 

Yeah -- you're stretching.  A lot.  Maybe you should run for Congress and start working on the Commerce Clause; it's possibly the only thing more stretched out of resemblance to where it started than your analogy here, or Dolly Parton's sweater.


----------



## PhotonGuy

They apply some of the same principals. Both emphasize being trustworthy, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and clean. And in both you shouldn't be afraid to talk to your superior if you don't understand something, you should be able to talk to your sensei in the martial arts and you should be able to talk to your scoutmaster in boyscouts.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> They apply some of the same principals. Both emphasize being trustworthy, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and clean. And in both you shouldn't be afraid to talk to your superior if you don't understand something, you should be able to talk to your sensei in the martial arts and you should be able to talk to your scoutmaster in boyscouts.



'Superior' now that's an emotive word. In Scouting it's not one that should be used, as B-P said it's a game, the idea is to engage young people to help them become well round human beings. 
I haven't been in any martial art that emphasises being friendly, trustworthy, courteous etc etc. Martial arts is mostly for adults ( yes I know children do them) to teach them to fight/defend themselves not to teach them to be well rounded human people. 
I'm not sure why you want to link the two, why it matters.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> They apply some of the same principals. Both emphasize being trustworthy, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and clean. And in both you shouldn't be afraid to talk to your superior if you don't understand something, you should be able to talk to your sensei in the martial arts and you should be able to talk to your scoutmaster in boyscouts.



All traits that are equally important to pole dancers.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> I haven't been in any martial art that emphasises being friendly, trustworthy, courteous etc etc. Martial arts is mostly for adults ( yes I know children do them) to teach them to fight/defend themselves not to teach them to be well rounded human people.
> I'm not sure why you want to link the two, why it matters.



I don't know where you're from but over here, children make up the vast majority of people who take up martial arts. In most cases you get a child whose maybe 8, 9, 10 who wants to try it out so they do it for a year, get their green belt, hang it up on the wall, show it to their friends, and then move on to other stuff. Children by far make up most of the business. If you've ever been to a MA tournament over here you will see they are mobbed with children who are 12 and younger. Teens and adults make up a smaller portion of tournament participants.

As to why Im linking the two and why it matters is because of this, asking about rank, and there I go about rank again, there is nothing wrong with asking your scoutmaster about rank in boyscouts. Although the handbook spells it out about what you need to do for each rank there are still some things which might be unclear to the scout and there is nothing wrong with asking the scoutmaster about it. Asking your sensei about rank in the martial arts, on the other hand, is often seen as disrespectful and can sometimes even get a student a six month suspension in rank advancement as this other member of the boards posted on how he does it at his place. Anyway in both MA and BS, I am talking about earning rank, not buying it or having it handed out. Anyway, what Im getting at is whats the difference in asking about such stuff in scouts vs martial arts aside from, "martial arts isn't boyscouts."


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I don't know where you're from but over here, children make up the vast majority of people who take up martial arts. In most cases you get a child whose maybe 8, 9, 10 who wants to try it out so they do it for a year, get their green belt, hang it up on the wall, show it to their friends, and then move on to other stuff. Children by far make up most of the business. If you've ever been to a MA tournament over here you will see they are mobbed with children who are 12 and younger. Teens and adults make up a smaller portion of tournament participants.
> 
> As to why Im linking the two and why it matters is because of this, asking about rank, and there I go about rank again, there is nothing wrong with asking your scoutmaster about rank in boyscouts. Although the handbook spells it out about what you need to do for each rank there are still some things which might be unclear to the scout and there is nothing wrong with asking the scoutmaster about it. Asking your sensei about rank in the martial arts, on the other hand, is often seen as disrespectful and can sometimes even get a student a six month suspension in rank advancement as this other member of the boards posted on how he does it at his place. Anyway in both MA and BS, I am talking about earning rank, not buying it or having it handed out. Anyway, what Im getting at is whats the difference in asking about such stuff in scouts vs martial arts aside from, "martial arts isn't boyscouts."




It says on the top right hand corner where I'm from. And again I will remind you that you are talking about Scouting in your country, we don't have 'scout masters' the word being redundant here as being far too authoritative, we have Scouters/Scout leaders. We don't have rank in Scouting  and 'rank' in martial arts isn't rank in the sense of the military etc. I think you are reaching for similarities that aren't there. In Scouting we have the Queen's Scout which isn't a rank it's an award, you have to work for it but it gives you no rank.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> We do it all the time and if you ever studied history you will know what I mean. An example will be how, to this day, people are still debating whether or not Japan should've been nuked in WWII. The fact of the matter is, had Japan not been nuked than the argument would've been that Japan should've been nuked and what the outcome would've been, but what it all comes down to is that Japan was nuked and arguing about it now would be pointless since its been done and what's done is done and arguing about it now won't change the past. So, people are flogging a dead horse in that regard.



Man what is up with you. Yeah Japan got nuked, but it was to spare American lives. In 1945, it would have been a blood bath on both sides. It is not debatable to me. Anyway who is debating it and where. Would like to see some linkage.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> It says on the top right hand corner where I'm from. And again I will remind you that you are talking about Scouting in your country, we don't have 'scout masters' the word being redundant here as being far too authoritative, we have Scouters/Scout leaders. We don't have rank in Scouting  and 'rank' in martial arts isn't rank in the sense of the military etc. I think you are reaching for similarities that aren't there. In Scouting we have the Queen's Scout which isn't a rank it's an award, you have to work for it but it gives you no rank.



I see you're from England. So things are obviously different there. Here in NJ as I said most of the people who take up martial arts are children and they usually only do it for awhile, maybe for a year or so. And our BSA system is obviously different than your scouting. We do have leaders in our troops but there is also the scoutmaster who oversees the whole troop.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Transk53 said:


> Man what is up with you. Yeah Japan got nuked, but it was to spare American lives. In 1945, it would have been a blood bath on both sides. It is not debatable to me. Anyway who is debating it and where. Would like to see some linkage.



In some of my college classes we would study WWII and we would read articles written by people who said Japan shouldnt've been nuked. I don't have any links right now but I will try to find some. One of the arguments against it is that it was a test to see the effects of a uranium bomb vs a plutonium bomb. The first bomb was a uranium bomb, the second bomb was a plutonium bomb.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Here is a link I found. It is not the same articles I read in college but it has arguments both in favor and against the nuking of Japan.

Debate:Was the United States Justified in Nuking Japan? - RationalWiki


----------



## Cirdan

A dolphin and a whale were responsible for dropping the nukes of course.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Here is a link I found. It is not the same articles I read in college but it has arguments both in favor and against the nuking of Japan.
> 
> Debate:Was the United States Justified in Nuking Japan? - RationalWiki



I don't need to see some half arsed wiki page. American lives were saved. I would like you to see reality sometime fella.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> In some of my college classes we would study WWII and we would read articles written by people who said Japan shouldnt've been nuked. I don't have any links right now but I will try to find some. One of the arguments against it is that it was a test to see the effects of a uranium bomb vs a plutonium bomb. The first bomb was a uranium bomb, the second bomb was a plutonium bomb.





PhotonGuy said:


> Here is a link I found. It is not the same articles I read in college but it has arguments both in favor and against the nuking of Japan.
> 
> Debate:Was the United States Justified in Nuking Japan? - RationalWiki





Transk53 said:


> I don't need to see some half arsed wiki page. American lives were saved. I would like you to see reality sometime fella.



There is plenty to debate on the issue of nuclear weapons. But this is not the correct place for it. It's the wrong thread. In the wrong forum.


----------



## Transk53

Dirty Dog said:


> There is plenty to debate on the issue of nuclear weapons. But this is not the correct place for it. It's the wrong thread. In the wrong forum.



I hear ya, sorry man. Just a bit passionate about certain things!


----------



## PhotonGuy

The thread has gone off on a completely different tangent. I only used the example of nuclear bombs on WWII of how people beat dead horses when they still to this day argue against it. That was when this thread got into the idea of beating dead horses, when the thread started out as a comparison between boyscouts and martial arts.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> The thread has gone off on a completely different tangent. I only used the example of nuclear bombs on WWII of how people beat dead horses when they still to this day argue against it. That was when this thread got into the idea of beating dead horses, when the thread started out as a comparison between boyscouts and martial arts.



Yeah sure.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> The thread has gone off on a completely different tangent. I only used the example of nuclear bombs on WWII of how people beat dead horses when they still to this day argue against it. That was when this thread got into the idea of beating dead horses, when the thread started out as a comparison between boyscouts and martial arts.



You still haven't grasped the idea of flogging a dead horse, it isn't the Japan/nuclear debate, as you can see there's still strong feelings and arguments in that. Flogging a dead horse is where you are comparing oranges with apples and saying they are the same when they really, really not. people would 'flog' a horse to make it go faster and/or keep going, there's still mileage in the horse. Flogging a dead horse is obviously pointless because the bloody horse is dead and not going anywhere.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Well than enough about trying to compare martial arts and boyscouts. I was actually getting at something else when I started this thread.


----------



## Carol

PhotonGuy said:


> Well than enough about trying to compare martial arts and boyscouts. I was actually getting at something else when I started this thread.



So you started a thread about comparing martial arts to the Boy Scouts of America  because you wanted to talk about something_ other than_ comparing martial arts to the Boy Scouts of America?

How does that work, exactly?


----------



## PhotonGuy

This is the point I wanted to make. I was a Boy Scout and in Boy Scouts there is nothing wrong with a scout asking the scoutmaster stuff about what they need to do to get to the next level. There is nothing wrong with a Life scout asking the scoutmaster what they need to do to get to Eagle. On the other hand, some people, I would say lots of people on this board say its disrespectful for martial arts students to ask their senseis stuff about belts. I don't see what the problem would be with a brown belt student asking their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt. Take note I am talking about a brown belt student here, not a white belt or a green belt but a brown belt. If a student wants to get an A in a class there is nothing wrong with the student talking to their teacher about it and if a Life scout wants to be an Eagle there is nothing wrong with them talking to their scoutmaster about it. It doesn't mean the student or scout disrespects their teacher or scoutmaster, they just want to do well and reach a certain goal and there shouldn't be anything wrong with them asking about it. However, people say its disrespectful for a brown belt student in the martial arts to ask their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt, I don't see why that is. If you've got a certain goal you need to know what you have to do to reach that goal, makes sense doesn't it?


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> This is the point I wanted to make. I was a Boy Scout and in Boy Scouts there is nothing wrong with a scout asking the scoutmaster stuff about what they need to do to get to the next level. There is nothing wrong with a Life scout asking the scoutmaster what they need to do to get to Eagle. On the other hand, some people, I would say lots of people on this board say its disrespectful for martial arts students to ask their senseis stuff about belts. I don't see what the problem would be with a brown belt student asking their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt. Take note I am talking about a brown belt student here, not a white belt or a green belt but a brown belt. If a student wants to get an A in a class there is nothing wrong with the student talking to their teacher about it and if a Life scout wants to be an Eagle there is nothing wrong with them talking to their scoutmaster about it. It doesn't mean the student or scout disrespects their teacher or scoutmaster, they just want to do well and reach a certain goal and there shouldn't be anything wrong with them asking about it. However, people say its disrespectful for a brown belt student in the martial arts to ask their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt, I don't see why that is. If you've got a certain goal you need to know what you have to do to reach that goal, makes sense doesn't it?



Don't you already have two threads about needing to have better communication with your martial arts instructor?  You really need to let this subject go, you are seriously fixated on it.  Relax, breathe, use those martial arts skills you have learned to to clear your mind and move on.


----------



## Dirty Dog

Blindside said:


> Don't you already have two threads about needing to have better communication with your martial arts instructor?  You really need to let this subject go, you are seriously fixated on it.  Relax, breathe, use those martial arts skills you have learned to to clear your mind and move on.



I think it's more like 8...


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> This is the point I wanted to make. I was a Boy Scout and in Boy Scouts there is nothing wrong with a scout asking the scoutmaster stuff about what they need to do to get to the next level. There is nothing wrong with a Life scout asking the scoutmaster what they need to do to get to Eagle. On the other hand, some people, I would say lots of people on this board say its disrespectful for martial arts students to ask their senseis stuff about belts. I don't see what the problem would be with a brown belt student asking their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt. Take note I am talking about a brown belt student here, not a white belt or a green belt but a brown belt. If a student wants to get an A in a class there is nothing wrong with the student talking to their teacher about it and if a Life scout wants to be an Eagle there is nothing wrong with them talking to their scoutmaster about it. It doesn't mean the student or scout disrespects their teacher or scoutmaster, they just want to do well and reach a certain goal and there shouldn't be anything wrong with them asking about it. However, people say its disrespectful for a brown belt student in the martial arts to ask their sensei what they need to do to get a black belt, I don't see why that is. If you've got a certain goal you need to know what you have to do to reach that goal, makes sense doesn't it?



So you are saying that Scouts and martial arts aren't the same at all. 

When I said that you should remember that you are talking about Scouting in your country you should also remember you are talking about the martial arts *you do.* What people say it's disrespectful to ask about black belt, I don't and I welcome questions, most instructors I know do.  If you have a problem with your instructor/sensei it doesn't mean all martial arts is like that.


----------



## Chris Parker

PhotonGuy said:


> They apply some of the same principals. *Both emphasize being trustworthy, friendly, courteous, kind, brave, and clean. *And in both you shouldn't be afraid to talk to your superior if you don't understand something, you should be able to talk to your sensei in the martial arts and you should be able to talk to your scoutmaster in boyscouts.



Ha, this may come as a surprise, but you and I have very, very different ideas of martial arts, if that's what you think they're emphasising particularly the "trustworthy" part ha!


----------



## MJS

I can't believe this is still going on. LOL!  Look at it like this:  There will always be similarities in things, but in this case, you (the OP) is comparing things that are nowhere remotely the same.  Let's use a Martial Arts analogy.  I've done Kenpo for over 20 years.  I've now switched to Kyokushin.  The katas are not the same at all.  Sure, there are punches, blocks and kicks, however, there are differences in the way they're applied.  Similar? Sure. The same? Not at all.


----------



## Blindside

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, this may come as a surprise, but you and I have very, very different ideas of martial arts, if that's what you think they're emphasising&#8230; particularly the "trustworthy" part&#8230; ha!



One of my (old school Filipino) instructors likes to say "you always have to keep something in your pocket in case you have to kill them (one of your students)."  The "what you have in your pocket" is both regarding weaponry and what techniques that you don't show them.


----------



## Transk53

Blindside said:


> One of my (old school Filipino) instructors likes to say "you always have to keep something in your pocket in case you have to kill them (one of your students)."  The "what you have in your pocket" is both regarding weaponry and what techniques that you don't show them.



Yeah agree. Not qualified to comment.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> When I said that you should remember that you are talking about Scouting in your country you should also remember you are talking about the martial arts *you do.* What people say it's disrespectful to ask about black belt, I don't and I welcome questions, most instructors I know do.  If you have a problem with your instructor/sensei it doesn't mean all martial arts is like that.


You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and I am going to start another thread about it.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and* I am going to start another thread about it*.



Please don't.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and* I am going to start another thread about it*.



Please don't.


----------



## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and I am going to start another thread about it.



It is my understanding that with a strict belt structure, you don't ask, you get told.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and I am going to start another thread about it.



Please. I'm begging you. Don't. Not again.

You need to come to grips with the fact that you're going to get the same answers every time you start yet another thread for the same topic. You don't like the answers, but they're not likely to change. The only thing that will change is people will, as they get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, become blunter, due to the possibility that you just didn't understand the answers the first time. Or the twelfth. A not unreasonable possibility, since if you got it, you wouldn't keep asking the same thing.


----------



## Tez3

I didn't mean to double post, not sure how it happened but am thinking it was a Freudian slip ie please don't make another thread about it.


----------



## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> You might not say that it isn't disrespectful to ask questions about ranks and the instructors you know might not say that but some of the people on this board have indicated it is and its an overall idea in the martial arts world that you're supposed to just "shut up and train," and not ask questions about testing or belts because that's disrespectful. That can create problems and I am going to start another thread about it.



At the very least, PG, I would encourage you to consider before posting what, if anything, would be the new content in such a thread. If you can't clearly define and communicate the difference between the new thread topic and older thread topics you've posted before, then I would encourage you not to duplicate post. Again.

It is highly unlikely that such a thread would elicit any new information or insight from the population here. Maybe you'll have to just let it go.


----------



## tshadowchaser

wait a few years before starting a topic that has been covered within the last year. maybe there will be enough new posters by then so that differing view will find a different line of discussion


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Please don't.



If you don't like it you don't have to read it. So Im warning you, don't read the new thread I start, or risk doing a Sheldon Cooper.


----------



## tshadowchaser

Just because people named Sheldon are geniuses dose not mean they do not make mistakes sometime ( I should KNow)


----------



## PhotonGuy

tshadowchaser said:


> Just because people named Sheldon are geniuses dose not mean they do not make mistakes sometime ( I should KNow)


Actually Sheldon makes lots of mistakes. He's a genius when it comes to book smarts and academic stuff but he is very dumb in other areas.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Please. I'm begging you. Don't. Not again.
> 
> You need to come to grips with the fact that you're going to get the same answers every time you start yet another thread for the same topic. You don't like the answers, but they're not likely to change. The only thing that will change is people will, as they get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, become blunter, due to the possibility that you just didn't understand the answers the first time. Or the twelfth. A not unreasonable possibility, since if you got it, you wouldn't keep asking the same thing.



Here's the problem. I've tried to make points in the past with my posts but it keeps going off in directions I don't intend it to. For instance, some of my threads have become debates over whether or not a student should be told before they can test or of the student can test or at least ask to test at their own discretion. When I mention that my place is the latter people start saying that its wrong and that Im going to a McDojo. If that's the position they want to take than so be it but arguing over that is getting off the point. 
Also some of my threads have become debates over whether or not students should even pursue rank. Aside from being off the point I think that in and of itself that's a pointless thing to debate over. People make up their own minds over whether or not they want to work on rank and if somebody else's mind is made up differently than mine than that's their personal choice but theres really no point in us trying to change each other's minds on that. After all, whether or not somebody else decides to pursue rank or not has no effect on my life whatsoever and vice versa. The thing is, you shouldn't try pushing your choice on others. If you don't want to pursue rank that might be the right choice for you but not necessarily for somebody else. 
Just like with Boyscouts. Somebody said that some people go into Boyscouts and they don't care about rank and badges they just want the experience of being in the outdoors and doing some of the stuff that you do in Boyscouts such as camping, fishing, hiking, ect. Then there are those who go into Boyscouts who do want to earn badges and who want to be Eagle Scouts someday. Neither of those reasons are right or wrong, they're personal choices. I've never heard of somebody who wanted to be an Eagle Scout being told that pursuing that is wrong or off the point. It might be off the point for somebody who doesn't care to be an Eagle Scout and who goes into Boyscouts for other reasons but again, that's a personal choice. And even though martial arts isn't Boyscouts the concept is the same, whether or not a student wants to pursue rank and make it to whatever belt or level, that's a personal choice and there is no right or wrong answer over whether or not a student should do that, its up to the student.
So, with what I hope will be my final thread on this, I hope to clear this all up and not have the thread go off topic. But, if you do read my thread my advice would be to take it with a grain of salt. If reading my thread causes you to react like Sheldon Cooper, you've been warned.


----------



## Tez3

Who the heck is Sheldon Cooper and why should I care? And taking your threads with a 'grain of salt' as you advise surely means you aren't posting seriously and therefore may be trolling.
When you put a thread up you cannot then complain that people discuss it, we all have different ideas and different thoughts you cannot censor those into something you agree with or decide that people mean something they do not. What you are actually saying is 'if you don't agree with me don't read my thread or comment', that's not what this place is for, it's not supposed to be about one or two people only posting what they want and getting huffy because people then post what they think or believe.
By the way martial arts is still nothing like Scouting.


----------



## Gnarlie

Tez3 said:


> Who the heck is Sheldon Cooper and why should I care? And taking your threads with a 'grain of salt' as you advise surely means you aren't posting seriously and therefore may be trolling.
> When you put a thread up you cannot then complain that people discuss it, we all have different ideas and different thoughts you cannot censor those into something you agree with or decide that people mean something they do not. What you are actually saying is 'if you don't agree with me don't read my thread or comment', that's not what this place is for, it's not supposed to be about one or two people only posting what they want and getting huffy because people then post what they think or believe.
> By the way martial arts is still nothing like Scouting.



I'd go a step further and say it is more like 'I am going to post a thread and if people don't agree with me or the discussion does not lead to the specific undisclosed destination I have in mind, I am going to post another duplicate thread and repeat the same cycle ad nauseam / infinitum.'


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> If reading my thread causes you to react like Sheldon Cooper, you've been warned.



Perhaps I'm not the one who should be compared to someone who is 'dumb in a lot of ways'...


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Here's the problem. I've tried to make points in the past with my posts but it keeps going off in directions I don't intend it to.



And you have not yet figured out why....... interesting


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Who the heck is Sheldon Cooper and why should I care?


He is a character from a sitcom. At post 133 you can see a clip of him shocking himself when he hits himself on the forehead.


Tez3 said:


> And taking your threads with a 'grain of salt' as you advise surely means you aren't posting seriously and therefore may be trolling.


What Im saying is don't take my posts personally. Its pointless to get all worked up over something you read on some forum. And besides, you might not be somebody that my question in a post is directed to, so if you're going to read and answer it anyway you're just wasting your time. But, its your time to waste not mine.


Tez3 said:


> When you put a thread up you cannot then complain that people discuss it, we all have different ideas and different thoughts you cannot censor those into something you agree with or decide that people mean something they do not.


Some of my threads are only directed at people with certain viewpoints and if you don't have those certain viewpoints than Im not asking you the questions in the thread and you read and answer them you're wasting your time, see above.


Tez3 said:


> What you are actually saying is 'if you don't agree with me don't read my thread or comment', that's not what this place is for, it's not supposed to be about one or two people only posting what they want and getting huffy because people then post what they think or believe.


Read or post whatever you want but if you get all exasperated about what I post don't say I didn't warn you.



Tez3 said:


> By the way martial arts is still nothing like Scouting.


They've got some stuff in common, they both emphasize hard work, being prepared, both scouting and not all but many of the martial arts have a ranking system of some sort, and both teach qualities of leadership. Some of the martial arts are even used in some Boyscout activities although most of the arts are unfortunately banned from Boyscouts except for Judo, Aikido, and Tai Chi.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Perhaps I'm not the one who should be compared to someone who is 'dumb in a lot of ways'...


I can't compare you to anybody. I don't know you from Adam just like you don't know me from Adam.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> He is a character from a sitcom. At post 133 you can see a clip of him shocking himself when he hits himself on the forehead.




Quoting a television character is somewhat odd.




PhotonGuy said:


> What Im saying is don't take my posts personally. Its pointless to get all worked up over something you read on some forum. And besides, you might not be somebody that my question in a post is directed to, so if you're going to read and answer it anyway you're just wasting your time. But, its your time to waste not mine.



Look, this is a discussion forum not your personal site. You don't get to decide who answers and what their answers should be.



PhotonGuy said:


> Some of my threads are only directed at people with certain viewpoints and if you don't have those certain viewpoints than Im not asking you the questions in the thread and you read and answer them you're wasting your time, see above.



Private conversations then should be done by PM. You cannot choose who posts.



PhotonGuy said:


> Read or post whatever you want but if you get all exasperated about what I post don't say I didn't warn you.




I'm not exasperated by your posts just the fact you don't understand what a discussion site is for.



PhotonGuy said:


> They've got some stuff in common, they both emphasize hard work, being prepared, both scouting and not all but many of the martial arts have a ranking system of some sort, and both teach qualities of leadership. Some of the martial arts are even used in some Boyscout activities although most of the arts are unfortunately banned from Boyscouts except for Judo, Aikido, and Tai Chi.




You cannot talk about Scouting as if you know every Scout Association, you don't. Here, in the original one, there is nothing to say you can't do martial arts, Scouting doesn't impinge on other hobbies you have, in fact quite the opposite, there are badges you can earn for them and that includes martial arts. Scouting in the UK doesn't have a 'ranking system' nor do most of the Scouting Associations I've worked with in Europe, they have leaders of course but no rank involved.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> I can't compare you to anybody. I don't know you from Adam just like you don't know me from Adam.



I am beginning to get the impression (Ok I had this impression awhile ago) that you will continue to post the same topics over and over again until everyone agrees with you. And if they don't then, well they are taking it off topic..... also interesting


----------



## Tez3

Xue Sheng said:


> I am beginning to get the impression (Ok I had this impression awhile ago) that you will continue to post the same topics over and over again until everyone agrees with you. And if they don't then, well they are taking it off topic..... also interesting




Wearing us down until we agree with him lol, ain't going to happen, I've got kids I can resist.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Look, this is a discussion forum not your personal site. You don't get to decide who answers and what their answers should be.


I never said otherwise.



Tez3 said:


> Private conversations then should be done by PM. You cannot choose who posts.


No I can't. Like I said if you want to waste your time that's your choice not mine.



Tez3 said:


> I'm not exasperated by your posts just the fact you don't understand what a discussion site is for.


Supposedly its you who doesn't understand what I understand, or that's the impression Im getting.



Tez3 said:


> You cannot talk about Scouting as if you know every Scout Association, you don't. Here, in the original one, there is nothing to say you can't do martial arts, Scouting doesn't impinge on other hobbies you have, in fact quite the opposite, there are badges you can earn for them and that includes martial arts. Scouting in the UK doesn't have a 'ranking system' nor do most of the Scouting Associations I've worked with in Europe, they have leaders of course but no rank involved.


Im talking about BSA, Boyscouts of America, in particular, not other scouting organizations.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Supposedly its you who doesn't understand what I understand, or that's the impression Im getting.



No, you keep telling us what you mean, we got it several threads and many, many, many posts ago...and we still don't agree with you.

If you are posting and feel that what you write is wasting our time then I'd suggest you are trolling at worst, being unclear at best.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> I am beginning to get the impression (Ok I had this impression awhile ago) that you will continue to post the same topics over and over again until everyone agrees with you. And if they don't then, well they are taking it off topic..... also interesting


More along the lines that some of my threads only apply to people who have the same opinion on certain stuff that I do. If you don't have the same opinion Im not going to try to get you to change your mind but there would really be no point in you answering the thread.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> More along the lines that some of my threads only apply to people who have the same opinion on certain stuff that I do. If you don't have the same opinion Im not going to try to get you to change your mind but there would really be no point in you answering the thread.



So you are saying that having the same opinion is somehow different than agreeing with you.....interesting


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> If you are posting and feel that what you write is wasting our time then I'd suggest you are trolling at worst, being unclear at best.


Well put it this way, lets say I start a thread about strategies on how to achieve rank. Now, somebody who isn't interested in rank there really would be no point in them reading or answering such a thread and for them to do so would be a waste of time for them. Its their choice if they want to read or answer it but if they do than they made the choice to waste their own time. It would not be a waste of time for people who are interested in achieving rank but it would be for people who don't care for that. If somebody doesn't care about rank Im not going to try to get them to change their mind about it but I don't see why they would bother to get involved in a thread about strategies on how to achieve rank, much like I would never get involved in a thread about interior decorating and how to get good at it. Why? Because interior decoration is a field I have absolutely no interest in.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> So you are saying that having the same opinion is somehow different than agreeing with you.....interesting


It can be. Having the same opinion is not that simple. Once you share an opinion with somebody on something, then there is other stuff that has to be taken into consideration. How do you go about doing what you want to do? There can be much debate with that. You see that in politics all the time, people agreeing on a certain political position but debating on how to go about gaining that position. I could give specific examples but I don't want to get too much into politics on this board.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well put it this way, lets say I start a thread about strategies on how to achieve rank. Now, somebody who isn't interested in rank there really would be no point in them reading or answering such a thread and for them to do so would be a waste of time for them. Its their choice if they want to read or answer it but if they do than they made the choice to waste their own time. It would not be a waste of time for people who are interested in achieving rank but it would be for people who don't care for that. If somebody doesn't care about rank Im not going to try to get them to change their mind about it but I don't see why they would bother to get involved in a thread about strategies on how to achieve rank, much like I would never get involved in a thread about interior decorating and how to get good at it. Why? Because interior decoration is a field I have absolutely no interest in.




Do let me know if you ever find a thread about interior design on MT, it's very unlikely isn't it? what you will find is threads on martial arts, we are martial artists therefore we are interested in threads on here.

People who aren't interested in achieving rank still have opinions on the subject though, something I don't think you understand.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> It can be. Having the same opinion is not that simple. Once you share an opinion with somebody on something, then there is other stuff that has to be taken into consideration. How do you go about doing what you want to do? There can be much debate with that. You see that in politics all the time, people agreeing on a certain political position but debating on how to go about gaining that position. I could give specific examples but I don't want to get too much into politics on this board.



So you only want to discuss things with those that think the same as you..... seems like an incredibly boring and safe conversation... rather telling don't you think... but then it is not exactly what MT is about....


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Do let me know if you ever find a thread about interior design on MT, it's very unlikely isn't it? what you will find is threads on martial arts, we are martial artists therefore we are interested in threads on here.


You might. There are certain folders dedicated to discussing everything and anything, within the rules of the forum. So you never know, you just might find a thread on interior decoration.



Tez3 said:


> People who aren't interested in achieving rank still have opinions on the subject though, something I don't think you understand.


Sure they do. But I don't see why they would constantly post their opinion on a thread that's about how to obtain rank. I can see them maybe posting it once, that they don't care about achieving rank, and then moving on. So, if I keep asking the same questions over and over again know this, the questions might be directed at people who hold a certain viewpoint. For instance, they might be directed at people who do want to achieve rank. So if you don't care for rank you only need to answer the question once, you can say you don't care about it, and move on. You don't need to keep answering it since you already answered it the first time. 

Also, I would like to point this out. I can't stop you from reading or responding to anything I post on MT but by the same token I don't force you to read or respond to anything I post. So if you don't like something I post know this, I didn't make you read it. It was your choice.


----------



## Dirty Dog

PhotonGuy said:


> Sure they do. But I don't see why they would constantly post their opinion on a thread that's about how to obtain rank.



Because the answer is very simple. If you want rank, go buy a belt and sew some stripes on it. Ashida Kim will even print you a fancy certificate.
That's all it takes.

Now, if you wanted to talk about ways to obtain SKILL, you'd find lots of people interested in talking to you. 

You inability to grasp the difference between these two things is the root of your difficulties.
Not anybody else.
You.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> So you only want to discuss things with those that think the same as you.....


Just because somebody thinks the same way I do about a particular subject, interest, or position doesn't mean they think or agree with everything that has to do with that particular subject, interest, or position. Take this MT forum for example. This entire website is about the martial arts, with some exceptions such as the folders that are open to free discussion on non MA topics, but just about everybody on this forum has some fascination or at least some interest in the martial arts, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here. However, just because we share this common interest, in this case the martial arts, doesn't mean we agree with everything about the martial arts. In fact, there is tons of debate and tons of disagreements on this board. So in a broad sense we do all think the same, we all share an interest in the martial arts, but that doesn't mean we all think the same way when it comes to specific topics about the martial arts.



Xue Sheng said:


> seems like an incredibly boring and safe conversation... rather telling don't you think... but then it is not exactly what MT is about....


See above.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Because the answer is very simple. If you want rank, go buy a belt and sew some stripes on it. Ashida Kim will even print you a fancy certificate.
> That's all it takes.


And as I said before, that's a cheap way of gaining rank and I don't care for a cheap rank. And by cheap I mean in terms of knowledge, skill, and ability requirements not financial requirements, although buying a belt as you suggest is cheap in all those regards.



Dirty Dog said:


> Now, if you wanted to talk about ways to obtain SKILL, you'd find lots of people interested in talking to you.


And unless you go to a place that has cheap requirements for rank (see above) than rank and skill go hand in hand, or at least you won't find anybody with a high rank who didn't obtain a high level of skill first. Sure you might find people who do have a high level of skill and just don't care about rank but as I said before, many of my posts and threads are not directed at them.



Dirty Dog said:


> You inability to grasp the difference between these two things is the root of your difficulties.
> Not anybody else.
> You.


I have grasped the difference as explained above.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> But I don't see why they would constantly post their opinion on a thread that's about how to obtain rank



But this is what you do!


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> Just because somebody thinks the same way I do about a particular subject, interest, or position doesn't mean they think or agree with everything that has to do with that particular subject, interest, or position. Take this MT forum for example. This entire website is about the martial arts, with some exceptions such as the folders that are open to free discussion on non MA topics, but just about everybody on this forum has some fascination or at least some interest in the martial arts, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here. However, just because we share this common interest, in this case the martial arts, doesn't mean we agree with everything about the martial arts. In fact, there is tons of debate and tons of disagreements on this board. So in a broad sense we do all think the same, we all share an interest in the martial arts, but that doesn't mean we all think the same way when it comes to specific topics about the martial arts.



I honestly do not think you understand what you are saying here. 



PhotonGuy said:


> Just because somebody thinks the same way I do about a particular subject, interest, or position doesn't mean they think or agree with everything that has to do with that particular subject, interest, or position.



For example you said “Just because somebody thinks the same way I do about a particular subject” you then wrote “doesn't mean they think or agree with everything that has to do with that particular subject, interest, or position.” 

Basically you just said just because someone thinks like I do about something does not mean they think like I do about something. 



PhotonGuy said:


> Take this MT forum for example. This entire website is about the martial arts, with some exceptions such as the folders that are open to free discussion on non MA topics, but just about everybody on this forum has some fascination or at least some interest in the martial arts, otherwise you probably wouldn't be here.



Mostly true, some are here to agitate and irritate (trolls), but for the most part you are correct. But this statement begs the question, then why do you feel that if someone does not share your opinion on a topic that they should not post in your thread?



PhotonGuy said:


> However, just because we share this common interest, in this case the martial arts, doesn't mean we agree with everything about the martial arts.



This true, however you have already stated, that you believe a prerequisite to posting in one of your threads, is that one should share your opinion on your topics



PhotonGuy said:


> In fact, there is tons of debate and tons of disagreements on this board. So in a broad sense we do all think the same, we all share an interest in the martial arts, but that doesn't mean we all think the same way when it comes to specific topics about the martial arts.



That is also true, but that is not what you were saying before, as a matter of fact it contradicts what you previously posted. See below



PhotonGuy said:


> More along the lines that some of my threads only apply to people who have the same opinion on certain stuff that I do. If you don't have the same opinion Im not going to try to get you to change your mind but there would really be no point in you answering the thread.



Basically here you are saying there is no reason for someone to post in your threads if they do not already agree with you



PhotonGuy said:


> It can be. Having the same opinion is not that simple. Once you share an opinion with somebody on something, then there is other stuff that has to be taken into consideration. How do you go about doing what you want to do? There can be much debate with that. You see that in politics all the time, people agreeing on a certain political position but debating on how to go about gaining that position. I could give specific examples but I don't want to get too much into politics on this board.



And again here, you seem to require that someone have the same opinion as you as a preqequsit to responding to what you post.


Do you understand that you are posting contradictory things here?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically you just said just because someone thinks like I do about something does not mean they think like I do about something.


 They might think like you do about something at one level but not think like you do about it at another level.



Xue Sheng said:


> This true, however you have already stated, that you believe a prerequisite to posting in one of your threads, is that one should share your opinion on your topics


It is not up to me to set prerequisites for posting in my threads as I am not in charge of MT and people can post what they want within the rules of MT. However, if they're going to constantly post in one of my threads that is about a topic they have no interest in and they constantly make it clear they have no interest in that topic, I am going to ignore their posts. If they get frustrated about constantly answering my questions over and over again that's because they haven't exercised their option of not answering.

As for answering the rest of your post, how can I put this to you? We both have an interest in the martial arts, that's why we're both on MT. So, we agree with something. Now, there are certain things about the martial arts that we might disagree on. For instance you might prefer style A over style B and I might prefer style B on style A. So we might agree about something at a surface level, martial arts is interesting, but we disagree with certain stuff at deeper levels, such as which styles we prefer.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> If they get frustrated about constantly answering my questions over and over again that's because they haven't exercised their option of not answering



The problem is that you post the same question over and over again causing even the most benign and sympathetic posters to get frustrated. You are showing a lot of ego here, as if it's all about you.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> The problem is that you post the same question over and over again causing even the most benign and sympathetic posters to get frustrated.


Well you can always ignore it when I do that. You don't have to answer my questions over and over again. Maybe my questions aren't directed at you or other certain other specific people. If you choose to answer my questions anyway, over and over again, than you brought that upon yourself by not exercising the option I mentioned above.


Tez3 said:


> You are showing a lot of ego here, as if it's all about you.


Welcome to the world of martial arts.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well you can always ignore it when I do that. You don't have to answer my questions over and over again. Maybe my questions aren't directed at you or other certain other specific people. If you choose to answer my questions anyway, over and over again, than you brought that upon yourself by not exercising the option I mentioned above.




Really, you do think it's all about you don't you?
I don't answer your questions over and over by the way, but kinder, more patient people than I do and you are being grossly unfair to them because you are clearly ungrateful for that time.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> They might think like you do about something at one level but not think like you do about it at another level.
> 
> 
> It is not up to me to set prerequisites for posting in my threads as I am not in charge of MT and people can post what they want within the rules of MT. However, if they're going to constantly post in one of my threads that is about a topic they have no interest in and they constantly make it clear they have no interest in that topic, I am going to ignore their posts. If they get frustrated about constantly answering my questions over and over again that's because they haven't exercised their option of not answering.
> 
> As for answering the rest of your post, how can I put this to you? We both have an interest in the martial arts, that's why we're both on MT. So, we agree with something. Now, there are certain things about the martial arts that we might disagree on. For instance you might prefer style A over style B and I might prefer style B on style A. So we might agree about something at a surface level, martial arts is interesting, but we disagree with certain stuff at deeper levels, such as which styles we prefer.



You are not getting this are you... you contradicted your own posts...but just don't seem to understand how...



PhotonGuy said:


> Well you can always ignore it when I do that. You don't have to answer my questions over and over again. Maybe my questions aren't directed at you or other certain other specific people. If you choose to answer my questions anyway, over and over again, than you brought that upon yourself by not exercising the option I mentioned above.
> 
> Welcome to the world of martial arts.



so can you explain what reposting the same old tired over done posts over and over again in some sort of quest to get everyone to agree with you...or you will post the same thing again...have to do with the "world of martial arts"


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> You are not getting this are you... you contradicted your own posts...but just don't seem to understand how...


No I believe it is you who is not getting it. How can I put it to you that its possible to agree about something at one level but disagree at another level? Its not a contradiction if you do a little deep thinking.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Really, you do think it's all about you don't you?


 No I don't. That's why if somebody has taken a different position on a certain topic of discussion I am not going to try to change their minds, I will instead respect their position and ask other people what they think.


Tez3 said:


> I don't answer your questions over and over by the way, but kinder, more patient people than I do and you are being grossly unfair to them because you are clearly ungrateful for that time.


Maybe my questions weren't even directed at them in the first place.
BTW thank you for not answering my questions over and over as they weren't directed at you in the first place.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> No I don't. That's why if somebody has taken a different position on a certain topic of discussion I am not going to try to change their minds, I will instead respect their position and ask other people what they think.
> 
> Maybe my questions weren't even directed at them in the first place.
> BTW thank you for not answering my questions over and over as they weren't directed at you in the first place.




If posts are to be directed to individuals then there is little point in you posting here, you would be better discussing by FB or email/PMs. Either it's an open discussion or it's a private one, you need to make your mind up. On here and every other forum the discussions are public, you don't get to chose who posts on threads.
The point of discussion isn't to persuade others to think as you do it's to explore ideas and thoughts. I haven't changed my mind very often reading what other's have written but many times I've been given food for thought, seen another view or had an enjoyable debate with someone who has different views from mine. If you debate your views it makes you think about them more which is always good. I don't know what your intent is when posting here, I suspect it's to find those who will endorse your own thoughts about things which isn't really too healthy.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> If posts are to be directed to individuals then there is little point in you posting here, you would be better discussing by FB or email/PMs. Either it's an open discussion or it's a private one, you need to make your mind up. On here and every other forum the discussions are public, you don't get to chose who posts on threads.


Maybe its an open discussion but its directed at people who share a common interest or position. Take for instance this very website. MT is an open forum and its directed at people who have an interest, involvement, or some sort of connection to the martial arts. And it is open to everybody, including people who don't care for the martial arts but for such people to come on this forum I would find a bit unusual. Somebody whose never done martial arts before might come here out of some curiosity they have on the subject but as for somebody whose made up their mind that they've got no interest in the martial arts, while there is no rule that says they can't come here could you imagine somebody posting on these boards over and over again that they have no interest in the martial arts? Sounds quite silly doesn't it? Same thing with some of my threads. They are directed at people who share certain interests and positions with me and for people to keep posting on them about how they don't share the positions would be like the person who comes here and keeps posting that they aren't interested in MA. 



Tez3 said:


> The point of discussion isn't to persuade others to think as you do it's to explore ideas and thoughts. I haven't changed my mind very often reading what other's have written but many times I've been given food for thought, seen another view or had an enjoyable debate with someone who has different views from mine. If you debate your views it makes you think about them more which is always good. I don't know what your intent is when posting here, I suspect it's to find those who will endorse your own thoughts about things which isn't really too healthy.


You're quite right, and considering what you just said I would like to point out that lots of questions have multiple answers. You are aware that when you're presented with a problem there might be multiple ways of solving it, and often there is. As a matter of fact a common exercise done with problem solving is to present a problem and then after certain solutions have been proposed to take away those solutions and see what other options exist for solving the problem. So, maybe when I ask the same questions over and over again I am looking for different answers from different people. As for the people who keep giving me the same answer over and over again, they already gave me their answer the first time so there is no need for them to keep giving it.


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> As for the people who keep giving me the same answer over and over again, they already gave me their answer the first time so there is no need for them to keep giving it.



What you are looking for isn't different opinions, it's opinions that you agree with. Some questions only have one answer, that you don't like that answer is something you have to reconcile yourself to. Asking it again and again won't change that answer.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> What you are looking for isn't different opinions, it's opinions that you agree with.


Well lets face it, we all do that to some extent. After all, MT is for people who share the opinion that they enjoy the martial arts, or that they have some interest in it. We're not looking for people who have no interest in the martial arts.



Tez3 said:


> Some questions only have one answer, that you don't like that answer is something you have to reconcile yourself to. Asking it again and again won't change that answer.


Some do but some don't. Lots of the questions I ask have multiple answers or solutions. The martial arts itself often deals with multiple solutions to problems, just look at the myriad of different martial arts styles.

And now for a game of Chess.


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> No I believe it is you who is not getting it. How can I put it to you that its possible to agree about something at one level but disagree at another level? Its not a contradiction if you do a little deep thinking.



Well you are right there, I don't get illogical and non sequitur statements you are making all that well. And you have absolutely no idea what I said do you? I am simply saying that you "Photoguy" have contradicted your own posts in this thread. And I I'm sorry but I have to say I doubt you have the capacity for deep thinking, you either do not comprehend what is written here or you are not reading it before you respond......


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> People on MartialTalk have said that martial arts training is not the same thing as Boy Scouts. Well, they're not exactly the same thing but they do have some stuff in common. And they do have some of the same principals. And, if you're going to say that Martial Arts is nothing like Boy Scouts I would have to say you're wrong and you really can't say that with any credibility if you weren't ever a Boy Scout yourself. I was a Boy Scout so I know.



This is your OP, you aren't asking any questions you are making a statement (and it's principles btw principals are a different thing), you are also saying you are correct merely because you were a Scout. This isn't conducive to neither good discussion nor good debate. Nearly all yur threads start with a stament which people are then expected to agree with, if they don't agree you decide they shouldn't reply or 'bother' with the thread.

And for the record I was a Scout Leader, am currently a Girl Guide Leader and will say categorically Scouting is not like martial arts anymore than anything else is. Scouting is a Game, that's how Lord Baden-Powell designed it to be, if your Scouting isn't a game then it's not real Scouting. Martial arts aren't a game.


----------



## Steve

Photonguy, for what it's worth, everyone here makes choices.  In my opinion, if you want to post the same thing over and over, you're not all that different from anyone else.  Just about everyone here is in the same boat.  Just be prepared for the consequences. 

it's kind of funny from the outside looking in, to see three pages of posts all saying the same thing to photon guy about his posting the same things over and over. Kind of a meta moment for me. Worth a chuckle. I'm sure the admins appreciate the traffic you generate, if nothing else.  And I appreciate the absurdity of the threads you seem to foster.


----------



## Steve

Tez3 said:


> And for the record I was a Scout Leader, am currently a Girl Guide Leader and will say categorically Scouting is not like martial arts anymore than anything else is. Scouting is a Game, that's how Lord Baden-Powell designed it to be, if your Scouting isn't a game then it's not real Scouting. Martial arts aren't a game.


Martial arts aren't a game?  Says who?


----------



## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Photonguy, for what it's worth, everyone here makes choices.  In my opinion, if you want to post the same thing over and over, you're not all that different from anyone else.  Just about everyone here is in the same boat.  Just be prepared for the consequences.
> 
> it's kind of funny from the outside looking in, to see three pages of posts all saying the same thing to photon guy about his posting the same things over and over. Kind of a meta moment for me. Worth a chuckle. I'm sure the admins appreciate the traffic you generate, if nothing else.  And I appreciate the absurdity of the threads you seem to foster.



Sometimes when one is trying to get a point across to one, that is obvious to many, it takes time and effort...however there does come a time, when comprehension is unlikely, when one should stop hitting the wall with a hammer...put it down...and walk away..... that time has come


----------



## PhotonGuy

Xue Sheng said:


> Well you are right there, I don't get illogical and non sequitur statements you are making all that well. And you have absolutely no idea what I said do you? I am simply saying that you "Photoguy" have contradicted your own posts in this thread. And I I'm sorry but I have to say I doubt you have the capacity for deep thinking, you either do not comprehend what is written here or you are not reading it before you respond......



I am being very logical and I am not contradicting myself. It is you who at least isn't using any deep thinking when reading my posts. Let me put it simply and maybe this time you will get it. We both agree that martial arts is interesting. So we agree on that. However, we disagree in what styles we prefer, you prefer style A and I prefer style B. So there you have it, what part don't you understand?


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> This is your OP, you aren't asking any questions you are making a statement (and it's principles btw principals are a different thing), you are also saying you are correct merely because you were a Scout. This isn't conducive to neither good discussion nor good debate. Nearly all yur threads start with a stament which people are then expected to agree with, if they don't agree you decide they shouldn't reply or 'bother' with the thread.
> 
> And for the record I was a Scout Leader, am currently a Girl Guide Leader and will say categorically Scouting is not like martial arts anymore than anything else is. Scouting is a Game, that's how Lord Baden-Powell designed it to be, if your Scouting isn't a game then it's not real Scouting. Martial arts aren't a game.



Well I've said this in an earlier post but I was talking about BSA (Boyscouts of America) in particular. I was not talking about other scouting organizations and I probably should've clarified that with my first post. As for whatever scouting organization you're involved in I wouldn't know about it but I do know that BSA does have some stuff in common with the martial arts as I also said before. As for martial arts not being a game, sometimes it is used as a game. Ever hear of tournaments and sport competition?


----------



## Xue Sheng

PhotonGuy said:


> I am being very logical and I am not contradicting myself. It is you who at least isn't using any deep thinking when reading my posts. Let me put it simply and maybe this time you will get it. We both agree that martial arts is interesting. So we agree on that. However, we disagree in what styles we prefer, you prefer style A and I prefer style B. So there you have it, what part don't you understand?



I would agree with you but then we'd both be wrong.

You are arguing against something I am not saying and you are also arguing against something you previously said...but you do not have any clue about this do you......I do believe you are Cognitively-impaired


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well I've said this in an earlier post but I was talking about BSA (Boyscouts of America) in particular. I was not talking about other scouting organizations and I probably should've clarified that with my first post. As for whatever scouting organization you're involved in I wouldn't know about it but I do know that BSA does have some stuff in common with the martial arts as I also said before. As for martial arts not being a game, sometimes it is used as a game. Ever hear of tournaments and sport competition?




Wow, you really don't know your Scouting history do you. You really should know about 'our' Scouting as it is the original that every other Scouting organisation is based on. Your Scouts are part of worldwide Scouting, it isn't an organisation in isolation. Welcome Scout.org  and  World Organization of the Scout Movement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Tournaments and competitions aren't games, you just said it yourself they are sports.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Wow, you really don't know your Scouting history do you. You really should know about 'our' Scouting as it is the original that every other Scouting organisation is based on. Your Scouts are part of worldwide Scouting, it isn't an organisation in isolation. Welcome Scout.org  and  World Organization of the Scout Movement - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Organization_of_the_Scout_Movement
I've never studied much of the history of scouting on how BSA evolved, Im only talking about my own experience with BSA.



Tez3 said:


> Tournaments and competitions aren't games, you just said it yourself they are sports.


And sports aren't games? Ever hear the song, "Take Me Out To The Ball GAME"?


----------



## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I've never studied much of the history of scouting on how BSA evolved, Im only talking about my own experience with BSA.



Then you are an ignorant Scout, history is something that is very important. It didn't occur to you to wonder about the history of Scouting, how it was founded by Lord Robert Baden-Powell and taken all over the world by people who started Scouting in their own countries, about how a Scout is a brother to all Scouts etc? You didn't look to see what your brother Scouts were doing in the Nepalese Earthquake or how Scouts are helping their communities all around the world with clean water schemes, literacy, medical aid etc? Shame on you for not knowing what your organisation is part of, that's an extremely selfish point of view only being involved in what you were doing, very unScoutlike I'm afraid.

A song title is proof of nothing other than it is a song title.


----------



## Steve

Xue Sheng said:


> Sometimes when one is trying to get a point across to one, that is obvious to many, it takes time and effort...however there does come a time, when comprehension is unlikely, when one should stop hitting the wall with a hammer...put it down...and walk away..... that time has come


Xue, I think you're right.  I get that it's frustrating, but in my opinion, it's not okay to tell someone you think he's cognitively impaired.   Even if you think it's true.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Then you are an ignorant Scout, history is something that is very important. It didn't occur to you to wonder about the history of Scouting, how it was founded by Lord Robert Baden-Powell and taken all over the world by people who started Scouting in their own countries, about how a Scout is a brother to all Scouts etc? You didn't look to see what your brother Scouts were doing in the Nepalese Earthquake or how Scouts are helping their communities all around the world with clean water schemes, literacy, medical aid etc? Shame on you for not knowing what your organisation is part of, that's an extremely selfish point of view only being involved in what you were doing, very unScoutlike I'm afraid.


I will have you know its been quite awhile since I've been a Boyscout, many years as a matter of fact, so I don't remember everything about it but I do know this, knowledge about Lord Robert Baden-Powell was not and is not required in BSA and the Nepalese Earthquake didn't happen until way after I was done with scouting. Yes I know about how a scout is a brother to all scouts and I was aware how Boyscouts in the USA help out within the country with all sorts of stuff, community service, disaster relief, ect. but I never was knowledgeable about scouting organizations outside the country. An Eagle Scout might know a good deal about that but the furthest I got was Star which is two ranks below Eagle and none of the requirements for Star or the ranks leading up to it involved knowing about scouting organizations all around the world. The merit badge Citizenship of the World I believe really gets into that but I had never earned that. I would've had to have earned it to become an Eagle Scout as it is a required merit badge but as I said, the furthest I got was Star. When I was in Boyscouts it never got into in depth history as to how it all got started and as I said, its been many years, so shame on you for making assumptions about me that were wrong.



Tez3 said:


> A song title is proof of nothing other than it is a song title.


What Im saying is, a sport is a type of game, don't tell me you're unaware of that. And that includes when the martial arts is used as a sport.


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## PhotonGuy

Steve said:


> Xue, I think you're right.  I get that it's frustrating, but in my opinion, it's not okay to tell someone you think he's cognitively impaired.   Even if you think it's true.


I quite agree.


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## Xue Sheng

Steve said:


> Xue, I think you're right.  I get that it's frustrating, but in my opinion, it's not okay to tell someone you think he's cognitively impaired.   Even if you think it's true.



You may want to read back through some posts he has made including the one where he implied I was simple and another where he seemed to think I was "butt hurt" and then feel free to pass judgement...but in this case I calls them as I sees them



PhotonGuy said:


> I quite agree.



I generally would not say that either, but in your case I made an exception.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I will have you know its been quite awhile since I've been a Boyscout, many years as a matter of fact, so I don't remember everything about it but I do know this, knowledge about Lord Robert Baden-Powell was not and is not required in BSA and the Nepalese Earthquake didn't happen until way after I was done with scouting. Yes I know about how a scout is a brother to all scouts and I was aware how Boyscouts in the USA help out within the country with all sorts of stuff, community service, disaster relief, ect. but I never was knowledgeable about scouting organizations outside the country. An Eagle Scout might know a good deal about that but the furthest I got was Star which is two ranks below Eagle and none of the requirements for Star or the ranks leading up to it involved knowing about scouting organizations all around the world. The merit badge Citizenship of the World I believe really gets into that but I had never earned that. I would've had to have earned it to become an Eagle Scout as it is a required merit badge but as I said, the furthest I got was Star. When I was in Boyscouts it never got into in depth history as to how it all got started and as I said, its been many years, so shame on you for making assumptions about me that were wrong.
> 
> 
> What Im saying is, a sport is a type of game, don't tell me you're unaware of that. And that includes when the martial arts is used as a sport.




No shame on me, shame on you, firstly you go on about Scouting as if it was a passion of your's and it turns out you actually didn't do very much so you really have little or no right to talk about Scouting as if you were entitled to then you keep going on about comparing it to martial arts which is laughable because you know so little about Scouting or martial arts.


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## seasoned

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

*Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.*

Wes Yager  (seasoned)
Senior Martial Talk Moderator.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> No shame on me, shame on you, firstly you go on about Scouting as if it was a passion of your's and it turns out you actually didn't do very much so you really have little or no right to talk about Scouting as if you were entitled to then you keep going on about comparing it to martial arts which is laughable because you know so little about Scouting or martial arts.


I did do very much in scouting back when I was doing it. As I said though its been many years since I've done it but I was very active in it when I was a Boyscout. The reason I stopped had to do with the deterioration of our troop and some other stuff but I would've had to have stopped eventually since you have to be under 18 to be in Boyscouts, unless you take on an adult job such as Scoutmaster. On these boards, I have a right to talk about whatever I want within the rules of the forum. As for my martial arts background which Im more active in than ever, I've been doing it for more than a score. I've been doing it for most of my life so to say I know so little about it would be ludicrous.


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## tshadowchaser

And now back to the topic of Boy Scouts not being Martial Arts or the other way around.
Lets have examples ONLY of why you think it is or is not.
examples:  Boy scouts in the USA have ranks  and most Martial arts classes also have ranks.
                   Boy scouts in the USA are Not expected to punch or kick their friends in class


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I did do very much in scouting back when I was doing it. As I said though its been many years since I've done it but I was very active in it when I was a Boyscout. The reason I stopped had to do with the deterioration of our troop and some other stuff but I would've had to have stopped eventually since you have to be under 18 to be in Boyscouts, unless you take on an adult job such as Scoutmaster. On these boards, I have a right to talk about whatever I want within the rules of the forum. As for my martial arts background which Im more active in than ever, I've been doing it for more than a score. I've been doing it for most of my life so to say I know so little about it would be ludicrous.




'Doing' something for years is no indication that one actually knows anything about what you are 'doing'.
The right you have to talk about anything you want seems to be one you are anxious not to concede to other posters however.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> 'Doing' something for years is no indication that one actually knows anything about what you are 'doing'.
> The right you have to talk about anything you want seems to be one you are anxious not to concede to other posters however.



Other people have the right to post whatever they want too, within the rules of MT, however that doesn't guarantee I won't ignore it.


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## Tames D

Dirty Dog said:


> Please. I'm begging you. Don't. Not again.
> 
> You need to come to grips with the fact that you're going to get the same answers every time you start yet another thread for the same topic. You don't like the answers, but they're not likely to change. The only thing that will change is people will, as they get tired of saying the same thing over and over and over and over and over again, become blunter, due to the possibility that you just didn't understand the answers the first time. Or the twelfth. A not unreasonable possibility, since if you got it, you wouldn't keep asking the same thing.


So why reply time after time after time...???


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## Dirty Dog

Tames D said:


> So why reply time after time after time...???



Because I am an optimist.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Other people have the right to post whatever they want too, within the rules of MT, however that doesn't guarantee I won't ignore it.




So, basically, only those that agree with you need post on your threads.


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## PhotonGuy

Dirty Dog said:


> Because I am an optimist.


Well, you're not going to change my mind about getting a belt by buying it instead of earning it. 
That might be a solution you would choose but not me. And besides, even if I do buy a belt at my dojo first you have to earn it. They will only sell you a belt once you pass the test and you may then buy whatever color belt you just passed the test for, except for the black belt where you just have to pass the test and they then give it to you without you paying anything for the belt.

Maybe I should've been more specific. My goal was not to get belts anywhere but rather from my dojo.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> So, basically, only those that agree with you need post on your threads.



Perhaps I should've been more clear with you and particularly with Xue Sheng on who Im looking for with my threads. Im looking for people who agree with me on certain specific things but not everything. As an example, if I post a thread about how to earn rank Im looking for people who at least place some care or importance to earning belts. People who don't care about rank, or people who are content with just buying belts without earning them, I can't prohibit them from posting on my thread but for them to constantly repeat their opinion on the matter they're just going to sound silly and I am going to ignore them after the first time. So if they get frustrated that they keep posting and Im not sharing their opinion, they're making the choice to keep posting in the first place.


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## Transk53

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps I should've been more clear with you and particularly with Xue Sheng on who Im looking for with my threads. Im looking for people who agree with me on certain specific things but not everything. As an example, if I post a thread about how to earn rank Im looking for people who at least place some care or importance to earning belts. People who don't care about rank, or people who are content with just buying belts without earning them, I can't prohibit them from posting on my thread but for them to constantly repeat their opinion on the matter they're just going to sound silly and I am going to ignore them after the first time. So if they get frustrated that they keep posting and Im not sharing their opinion, they're making the choice to keep posting in the first place.



Scouts do things as a team, the whole goal of coordination and such like. A dojo has coordination, but surely just a group of individuals.


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## Gnarlie

PhotonGuy said:


> Perhaps I should've been more clear with you and particularly with Xue Sheng on who Im looking for with my threads. Im looking for people who agree with me on certain specific things but not everything. As an example, if I post a thread about how to earn rank Im looking for people who at least place some care or importance to earning belts. People who don't care about rank, or people who are content with just buying belts without earning them, I can't prohibit them from posting on my thread but for them to constantly repeat their opinion on the matter they're just going to sound silly and I am going to ignore them after the first time. So if they get frustrated that they keep posting and Im not sharing their opinion, they're making the choice to keep posting in the first place.



Who exactly do you think doesn't care about rank? I never said that, and I don't recall anyone saying that directly in any thread. A lot of the people who disagree with your views on the topic are high dan grade instructors and examiners. I think that is an incorrect assumption you may have made.


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## Tez3

Gnarlie said:


> Who exactly do you think doesn't care about rank? I never said that, and I don't recall anyone saying that directly in any thread. A lot of the people who disagree with your views on the topic are high dan grade instructors and examiners. I think that is an incorrect assumption you may have made.



Repeating this because I think it's an important statement, again though PG is misunderstanding what is being said.


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## Gnarlie

I think that's pretty much the problem here.


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## Tgace

If girls should be allowed into the Boy Scouts what's the point of having the Girl Scouts? For some reason I never hear of a transgender wanting into the Girl Scouts. My. 02 is that I believe a number of these cases are more about making a political statement than they are about actually wanting into the organization.

Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2


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## drop bear

Transk53 said:


> Scouts do things as a team, the whole goal of coordination and such like. A dojo has coordination, but surely just a group of individuals.



We are a team.


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## drop bear

Tgace said:


> If girls should be allowed into the Boy Scouts what's the point of having the Girl Scouts? For some reason I never hear of a transgender wanting into the Girl Scouts. My. 02 is that I believe a number of these cases are more about making a political statement than they are about actually wanting into the organization.
> 
> Sent from my Kindle Fire using Tapatalk 2



Wait what?

You don't have girls in the scouts?

Seems very 1950s to be honest.


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## drop bear

Gnarlie said:


> Who exactly do you think doesn't care about rank? I never said that, and I don't recall anyone saying that directly in any thread. A lot of the people who disagree with your views on the topic are high dan grade instructors and examiners. I think that is an incorrect assumption you may have made.



It is the assumption that focusing on rank is somehow less martial arty than training without focusing on it.

Dirty dog has pretty much said it outright by the way.

For me if rank gets you training then focus the hell out of it.


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## Tgace

drop bear said:


> Wait what?
> 
> You don't have girls in the scouts?
> 
> Seems very 1950s to be honest.



We have Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for Boys and Brownies and Girl Scouts for Girls.....


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## Tez3

Tgace said:


> We have Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for Boys and Brownies and Girl Scouts for Girls.....




We have mixed Scouts, Cubs and Beavers but we also have girl only Guiding.


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## Blindside

The older scouting groups (Explorer, high adventure, etc) have been mixed for a long time.


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## Steve

drop bear said:


> Wait what?
> 
> You don't have girls in the scouts?
> 
> Seems very 1950s to be honest.


Girl Scouts in the USA are a money laundering front for the mob, I think.  At least, having been the "cookie mom" for my older daughter's brownie troop a few years back, that was my impression.  I may be mistaken.


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## drop bear

Steve said:


> Girl Scouts in the USA are a money laundering front for the mob, I think.  At least, having been the "cookie mom" for my older daughter's brownie troop a few years back, that was my impression.  I may be mistaken.



At least they are putting back into the community. Like those hells angels charity events.


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## PhotonGuy

Gnarlie said:


> Who exactly do you think doesn't care about rank? I never said that, and I don't recall anyone saying that directly in any thread. A lot of the people who disagree with your views on the topic are high dan grade instructors and examiners. I think that is an incorrect assumption you may have made.


There's been people on this forum who've made it quite clear they don't care about rank. They just care about the training and they don't care to pursue any belts or titles. Im not saying that's good or bad as its entirely a matter of opinion, but there've been people on this forum that have said that.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> There's been people on this forum who've made it quite clear they don't care about rank. They just care about the training and they don't care to pursue any belts or titles. Im not saying that's good or bad as its entirely a matter of opinion, but there've been people on this forum that have said that.




And?


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## Steve

Tez3 said:


> And?


Feeling plucky, Tez?  Just trying to stir the pot a little?


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## elder999

Tgace said:


> We have Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts for Boys and Brownies and Girl Scouts for Girls.....


There was a Supreme Court ruling a long time ago-when there are no girl groups, but a boy group exists, girls can join, and vice versa.....in most places, though, even the smallest, there are groups for both genders...


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## Transk53

I would have liked to have been a Sea Scout back in the day, or a Sea Cadet whichever is applicable. My swimming skill was almost non existent, still is really. Had to stick with a Otter Dinghy on a local reservoir. When your a kid, anything can be a battle wagon.


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## Blindside

I had heard about the Sea Scouts in high school when I was a boy scout, but was busy enough with Boy Scouts and Explorers that I really didn't have the time for it, but I just found out that this is what the Seattle Sea Scout group is training on:






And just have to say, that it would have been a wonderful opportunity.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> And?


And I was answering Gnarlie when he said there wasn't anybody who didn't care about rank.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> And I was answering Gnarlie when he said there wasn't anybody who didn't care about rank.




You needed to tell us that or use the quote function, it looked like a random comment apropos nothing.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> You needed to tell us that or use the quote function, it looked like a random comment apropos nothing.



I did use the quote function on post 210


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I did use the quote function on post 210


Wasn't an answer though was it? It was one of your statements we are supposed to agree with.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Wasn't an answer though was it? It was one of your statements we are supposed to agree with.


There are people on this forum who don't care about rank. I don't think I need to mention names but there have been people who have made that clear. Are you telling me you don't believe that?


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> There are people on this forum who don't care about rank. I don't think I need to mention names but there have been people who have made that clear. Are you telling me you don't believe that?



No, I'm telling you your posts are random and difficult to follow.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> No, I'm telling you your posts are random and difficult to follow.


Well as I said in an earlier post not in this thread but in a different thread, I can be random.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Well as I said in an earlier post not in this thread but in a different thread, I can be random.




then you shouldn't be surprised when people don't understand you.


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## PhotonGuy

Well I've been convinced that I don't need to start a new thread but I do have one big post which hopefully will be one of my final posts on the matter of advancement although I may make more proceeding posts if I get feedback. Im just wondering which thread to put it in. As I said I don't need to start a new thread but Im looking for a good thread that's on the subject. Im considering the "academic testing vs martial school testing" but that thread has seemed to have died down. Im looking for a good live thread.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Really, you do think it's all about you don't you?
> I don't answer your questions over and over by the way, but kinder, more patient people than I do and you are being grossly unfair to them because you are clearly ungrateful for that time.



Since you don't answer my questions over and over it shouldn't bother you and as for the kinder and more patient people who you claim Im being grossly unfair to, why do you care? You're not them.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> Since you don't answer my questions over and over it shouldn't bother you and as for the kinder and more patient people who you claim Im being grossly unfair to, why do you care? You're not them.




Actually you have been answered several times by me, the trouble is you don't like the answers. There's no reason you have to of course but you can't then say I haven't answered you.
Why do I care? because they are nice people and I care.


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## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> Actually you have been answered several times by me, the trouble is you don't like the answers. There's no reason you have to of course but you can't then say I haven't answered you.
> Why do I care? because they are nice people and I care.


I never said you didn't answer me. I just pointed out that you haven't answered me again and again as you have pointed out yourself or at least you haven't answered me more than several times, and actually I like it that way because I have your answers so there is no reason for you to repeat them.

As for these nice people who you care about, you're the one complaining not them.


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## Tez3

PhotonGuy said:


> I never said you didn't answer me. I just pointed out that you haven't answered me again and again as you have pointed out yourself or at least you haven't answered me more than several times, and actually I like it that way because I have your answers so there is no reason for you to repeat them.
> 
> As for these nice people who you care about, you're the one complaining not them.




You do know that doesn't make sense right?


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## Danny T

PhotonGuy said:


> I never said you didn't answer me. I just pointed out that you haven't answered me again and again...





PhotonGuy said:


> ... or at least you haven't answered me more than several times, and actually I like it that way because I have your answers...


????
Interesting statement.

Makes me say;
"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.”


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