# Super slow Siu Nim Tau (siu lam tau)



## geezer (Oct 14, 2019)

This WC forum has been really dead lately, but I suspect that there are still a few of us WC die-hards lurking about so I thought I'd throw out a few things that have been on my mind for general discussion. 

One thing that a student has asked me about is the traditional practice of doing Siu Nim Tau (as it is spelled in my WT/VT lineage) at a _super-slow speed,_ especially the first third of the form involving the "saam pai fut" movements (the repeated centerline extensions and retractions of tan and fook sau).

Now in our group, these movements are always done fairly slowly in comparison to the rest of the form, with each extensions taking between 3 and 5 seconds each, and the retractions equally as long. That is to say they are done at roughly the speed shown in the clip below taken from a closely related lineage. 






However, sometimes people practice these initial movements at an _extremely_ slow pace, taking five minutes or more for each extension. And I've heard stories of Grandmaster Yip taking as long as 15 minutes extending the tan-sau. The justifications for this practice often include building focus, concentration, superior structure and, when combined with proper breathing, as a form of meditative _chi-gung_ exercise. 

In the past, I _have_ tried this, spending up to about two minutes on each extension, however, I've never made it a regular part of my own training, and certainly, have never made it a regular part of my classes. For one thing, our class time is just too limited. And for my own part, I'm way too undisciplined and ADD to train that way consistently! Besides that, over the years I have become increasingly skeptical about some of the more mystical claims made regarding chi in TCMA.

So my question is, do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT, and what do feel are the practical benefits? ...Or on the other extreme, do some of you spend _less time _doing SNT at all, as you have progressed further in WC/WT/VT?


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## Danny T (Oct 14, 2019)

For the most part in class we do the forms at about the speed shown. From time to time we will do it extremely slowly to emphasize the importance for doing so as homework. While I don't believe in the mysticism of chi I do believe and know that by doing the forms extremely slowly the practitioner learns to feel the tension in their body and how to release it. You feel the changes in your center of gravity and how breathing can make changes as well. This is further developed (when emphasized and done properly) in chi sao and within many of the two persons drills and utilized in sparring.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 14, 2019)

I play and teach this form with a number of different speeds and energies, depending what I'm working on or what I want students to be working on. I usually don't do the final 3rd slowly, though. I'll try it. I am usually emphasizing either flow or whipping energy in those sections. If I do lead it slowly, it's usually to help someone learn the sequence.


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

geezer said:


> So my question is, do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT, and what do feel are the practical benefits?



Nope. Did the slow form many years ago. But it is mostly about training your horse (physical) and mental focus. 
With the extended horse exposure (in my cases, it was about 45 minutes) there can be and most likely will be some physical discomfort, even shaking in the legs, etc. Your mind and inner chatter will be drifting to focus on your lower half, while your limbs/arms continue on "auto pilot"...and it's this auto pilot aspect that one is after. The ability for the limbs to continue to function when the mind is elsewhere. 
Good topic Geezer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2019)

I like this clip for the following reasons:

- body push/pull arms.
- The body movement is more noticeable than the arm movement.
- Power generation can be seen.
- body unification.
- ...

People said that Taiji is just "waist movement". Any MA system has waist movement training is always superior.


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

??? What does this have to do with super slow SLT form?




Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like this clip for the following reasons:
> 
> - body push/pull arms.
> - The body movement is more noticeable than the arm movement.
> ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> ??? What does this have to do with super slow SLT form?


In that "super slow SLT form", you can see "freeze the body and only move the arms" which is lacking "body unification". Where are "elbow coordinate with knee" and "shoulder coordinate with hip"?

I try not to point out what's missing in OP's WC clip. I just point out what's existing in my WC clip. You can clearly see the "elbow coordinate with knee" and "shoulder coordinate with hip" there.

Since in both clips, the feet are not moving, "hand coordinate with foot" is missing in both clips. This has to do with the original form design.

What's the difference between a MA guy and a traffic cop? When a

- MA guy moves, he moves his whole body as one unit.
- traffic cop moves, he only moves his arms while his body is static.


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> "body unification". Where is "elbow coordinate with knee" and "shoulder coordinate with hip"?



You always bring this up. And you always show the same video with this same guy. And we always say the same thing: what you are talking about IS in the forms. For example, the second form. In the second form you "coordinate elbow with knee" and "shoulder with hip" etc. You just seem to want to see these aspects in the first form of wing chun. 
First you build the foundation, let it cure...then add the walls, roof, blah blah blah...

To be clear: I'm not disagreeing with you dude. I for one support the qualities you are discussing in the video you posted. I think they are an important part of wing chun.


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like this clip for the following reasons:
> 
> - body push/pull arms.
> - The body movement is more noticeable than the arm movement.
> ...



Yeah ...whatever. _I like the clip I provided_ because... Well actually it's not all that great IMO, but it is very similar to what we do and, most of all, I thought that girl was really cute!


Now, honestly I thought the bouncy guy in your clip didn't show good, _efficient _body unity either. His body movements seemed exaggerated and not particularly well synchronized with his hand movements.

In the Wing Chun I train, or at least as I have been training it, siu nim tau _does_ have body unity, but:

1. _You only start to put this in later,_ well after Chum Kiu is taught, ...probably mor at the Biu Tze level.
2. The movements are very small and efficient, and never large and bouncy.
3. And if _the movements are small _as you begin to do them, _they get smaller as you get better_, so someone watching might not see them. Still, _you feel them inside._ And someone who is knowledgeable and watching closely will see (and feel) the difference.
4. And finally, this subtle body unity wasn't really taught to me. I kinda _had to discover it _for myself. And now that I'm aware of it, I see in the movements of others. Especially those who are better than I am.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> 4. And finally, this subtle body unity wasn't really taught to me. I kinda _had to discover it _for myself.


This is the issue that I try to address.

The body unification concept wasn't taught to me by my primary art long fist system teacher either.

- You figured it out by yourself.
- I learned it from cross training the XingYi 6 harmony concept.

How many people may never figure this out by themselves or have cross training opportunity?

What can we do so the next generation can learn this in a easy way?


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the issue that I try to address.
> 
> The body unification concept wasn't taught to me by my primary art long fist system teacher either.
> 
> ...



I think you need to figure out how to use the quote feature. I did not say what you are apparently quoting. I think that was @geezer


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## geezer (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the issue that I try to address.
> 
> How many people may never figure this out by themselves or have cross training opportunity?
> What can we do so the next generation can learn this in a easy way?



Yes! I think you make a very good point!


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is the issue that I try to address.
> 
> The body unification concept wasn't taught to me by my primary art long fist system teacher either.
> 
> ...



In my WC upbringing, body unification was taught and pain-painstakingly drilled from day 1. I'm sorry you did not get this from your instructor. But just because this may be so, does not mean it was the fault of the art. It was or could have been the fault of your instructor.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2019)

geezer said:


> do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT?


When I train a form slow, I try to examine whether my hand and foot both start to move at the same time, and also both stop at the same time. For example, if I just do a simple drill left palm outside in block. I'll start to move my left hand the same time when I start to step my left foot to my left. When my left hand stop, I want to make sure that my left foot also stop at the same time. Since SNT doesn't include footwork, it's not a form that is suitable for slow training.


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## wckf92 (Oct 14, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When I train a form slow, I try to examine whether my hand and foot both start to move at the same time, and also both stop at the same time. For example, if I just do a simple drill left palm outside in block. I'll start to move my left hand the same time when I start to step my left foot to my left. When my left hand stop, I want to make sure that my left foot also stop at the same time. Since SNT doesn't include footwork, it's not a form that is suitable for slow training.





So in other words...the OP asks these two questions: 
"...do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT, and what do feel are the practical benefits?..."
To which, your answer would be no and none to both. 
Got it. 

I guess, if you know the first form of WC...you could try the super slow version and then comment back here what your thoughts are about it. 
Food for thought dude....


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2019)

To train your WC form slow, you will get much more benefit to train the 2nd WC form, or 3rd WC form than the 1st WC form. In both 2nd and 3rd form, you can examine your hand and foot coordination that you can't do that in the 1st form.

In other words, SNT is not suitable for slow training. You won't get all the benefit out of your SNT slow training.

2.36 - 2.40.






0.28 - 0.30.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 15, 2019)

I have to say, slow Siu Nim Tau is one of the best Qigong forms I have ever done. It is great, if done correctly, for internal training and upper and lower unity. How up and lower unity you may ask, since the lower does not move. Getting power from the root, to the hands, that is the upper and lower unity I am talking about


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## DanT (Oct 15, 2019)

geezer said:


> This WC forum has been really dead lately, but I suspect that there are still a few of us WC die-hards lurking about so I thought I'd throw out a few things that have been on my mind for general discussion.
> 
> One thing that a student has asked me about is the traditional practice of doing Siu Nim Tau (as it is spelled in my WT/VT lineage) at a _super-slow speed,_ especially the first third of the form involving the "saam pai fut" movements (the repeated centerline extensions and retractions of tan and fook sau).
> 
> ...





geezer said:


> This WC forum has been really dead lately, but I suspect that there are still a few of us WC die-hards lurking about so I thought I'd throw out a few things that have been on my mind for general discussion.
> 
> One thing that a student has asked me about is the traditional practice of doing Siu Nim Tau (as it is spelled in my WT/VT lineage) at a _super-slow speed,_ especially the first third of the form involving the "saam pai fut" movements (the repeated centerline extensions and retractions of tan and fook sau).
> 
> ...


Any 10 min+ SLT serves to develop "Yi" or mental intent. It has its place, but not during the class, where other things can be trained. For the most part, I try to keep my classes 90% partner drills (techniques, chi sao, sparring), and 10% forms, calisthenics, stretching, air techniques.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2019)

geezer said:


> So my question is, do any of you regularly train the very slow version of SNT, and what do feel are the practical benefits? ...Or on the other extreme, do some of you spend _less time _doing SNT at all, as you have progressed further in WC/WT/VT?


I like to train solo drills. I don't like to train forms.

I prefer to repeat:

- Left Tang Shou, right spear fingers.
- Right Tang Shou, left spear fingers,

100 times non-stop. I feel I can get more out of my training this way. I can even do this when I walk on the beach.


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to train solo* drills*. I don't like to train forms.
> 
> I prefer to repeat ...100 times non-stop. I feel I can get more out of my training this way.



This is how I_ solo_ train in Escrima when I can't rustle up a partner. I've put together about half a dozen short forms. Each form is comprised of about six linked solo drills repeated to both sides. 

I do a form, pick out the piece that needs the most work, and then just train _that segment_ many times over and over. Then afterwards I'll try it again in the context of the form and see if it hasn't gotten a lot better!


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## Eric_H (Oct 15, 2019)

Though I typically agree with John W when it comes to different types of drilling, in this one I prefer to adopt the model that every type of training is conditional and seasonal in the journey. 

In the beginning, one of the hardest things to train in WC is to not move - nearly every other martial art will dodge, step back or sidestep. In HFY WC we tend to set up our structure from square one/original position and defend that space. 

This requires mental training (overcoming the flinch and stress responses) and bridging technology. In order to maintain the original position without being run over, the technology we need to develop is Loi Lau Hoi Sung and proper Kim Yueng Ma to support it. Both of those are part of the lesson of the first form in my line.

For many students, being able to stay still is way harder than being able to move.

Once a student is no longer in that season, I agree with developing body coordination in movement as has already been opined.

As for doing the form very slowly, my experience points that it can have benefits when the student has yet to develop a sense of sinking the body and the elbow.


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## geezer (Oct 16, 2019)

Eric_H said:


> In the beginning, one of the hardest things to train in WC is to not move - nearly every other martial art will dodge, step back or sidestep. In HFY WC we tend to set up our structure from square one/original position and defend that space.



This is one of the big differences between HFY and LT's "WT" coming from the IP Man lineage. I got a little taste of the HFY method once working chi-sau with Jake (remember him?). Although I don't believe he trained with you for long, he really admired that non-moving aspect of HFY that he saw you do.

Leung Ting's method tends towards the opposite end of the spectrum, moving effortlessly with just an ounce of pressure. ...yet now that I think about it, he would occasionally demonstrate powerful rooting and immovability  under pressure too. Apparently there is a season for everything.

In Escrima, the DTE guys call that _going deep_, or _de fondo_ for those times when there can be no yielding or retreat. It's a whole different mindset, like Leonidas at Thermopylae.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2019)

Eric_H said:


> For many students, being able to stay still is way harder than being able to move.


To escape a foot sweep, or single leg attack, you have to move your leg any way. IMO, if you have to guard your ground (very good training) and not moving back, the WC YGKYM is too narrow for that (it's too easy for your opponent to reach your both legs).

If you use side way wide stance to guard your ground, when your opponent attacks, you can shift your weight back and forth. But I don't believe WC uses side way wide stance.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 17, 2019)

I actually had a chance to meet and train with @Eric_H a little bit last weekend. Terrific guy and some really interesting stuff. I think we had a lot of common ground, until it came to Chi Sao and then our differences were clear. Unfortunately, we saved that for last and didn't have enough time to riddle it out, but it's clear that we just regard it as different exercises entirely. 

Hopefully we'll get a chance to revisit that later this month. It's always great to connect with people in real life and even better when there are differences and they are cool.


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## geezer (Oct 18, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I actually had a chance to meet and train with @Eric_H a little bit last weekend. Terrific guy and some really interesting stuff. I think we had a lot of common ground, until it came to Chi Sao and then our differences were clear. Unfortunately, we saved that for last and didn't have enough time to riddle it out, but it's clear tha*t we just regard it as different exercises entirely. *
> 
> Hopefully we'll get a chance to revisit that later this month. It's always great to connect with people in real life and even better when there are differences and they are cool.



I'd definitely like to hear more about your very different types of chi-sau. Now I'm really curious.  It's really cool that you can accept that you are doing _different exercises_ rather than taking the "this is right and that is wrong" approach. By considering them different types of training, you leave yourself open to considering what the other drill can offer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2019)

Eric_H said:


> As for doing the form very slowly, my experience points that it can have benefits when the student has yet to develop a sense of sinking the body and the elbow.


I like to associate my slow training with footwork. For example, if I just train "guide opponent's arm across his body (guide opponent's leading arm to jam his own back arm)", I want to coordinate my back foot stepping with my leading arm guiding. I want to make sure that when my leading hand starts to

- move, my back foot also start to move.
- stop, my back foot also stop at the same time.​
For those drills that without footwork, I can't train this kind of hand and foot coordination. This coordination can be noticeable in slow speed training.

Am I the only person who has this concern? Do we have different goals in our slow training?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2019)

I don't like to train MA slow. It makes me to feel old. When I see old people move in slow speed, it upsets me.

Am I the only person who feels this way?


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## wckf92 (Oct 18, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to associate my slow training with footwork





Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like to train MA slow


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## ShortBridge (Oct 18, 2019)

geezer said:


> I'd definitely like to hear more about your very different types of chi-sau. Now I'm really curious.  It's really cool that you can accept that you are doing _different exercises_ rather than taking the "this is right and that is wrong" approach. By considering them different types of training, you leave yourself open to considering what the other drill can offer.



Well, I can't speak for his lineage and wouldn't want to appear to be trying. I also don't really want to speak for mine. I'll just speak from my experience and then layer on top of that that I have a shoulder problem that has kept me from putting too much of my own emphasis on Chi Sao for the last few years. I do teach it and I like doing it up to a point.

For me, it is two things:

1) It is an exercise that enables for developing flow, grounding, and the right ratio of structure and softness. It's a great way to develop sensitivity and find openings and opportunities by feel, rather than sight or intellect. My partner is there to expose flaws in my structure and intent so that I can correct them.

2) It can also be a really fun game. It's not fighting and I don't really consider it "sparring", it's a unique construct for Wing Chun and maybe related styles. 

When people talk about Chi Sao tournaments or in the Olympics or talk about it as though it is fighting or sparring, I don't really get that. It's not what I understand it to be, though you do get to hit each other. I think if you want to "spar" or  test yourself against another system, for example, there are much better ways to do that. But, Chi Sao is one of many things that builds our skills and contributes to that goal over all. I think that the interwebs world of Wing Chun has made chi sao out to be something other than was intended. 

That's my take, not speaking for my si gung or his legacy. I actually don't recall what he may have said about it in the past. And I didn't get enough time on it with Eric to understand his perspective. I hope to see him again this month and maybe we can talk about it more or may be he'll chime in here. I like where my kung fu comes from a lot, but I'll never make claims along the lines of it being the only one true..whatever. Life is too short for that sort of thing.


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## APL76 (Oct 19, 2019)

We routinely do Sui Lim Tao (SLT) for between 10 to 20 minute in class (we have 2 hours so enough time).
For us it is a very important developmental tool that achieves a number of goals. 

Firstly we try to lock the appropriate structure into the body through pulling everything into place during SLT and holding it for extended periods of time repeated many times over years of training. It also refines our adherence to the centreline in application of our forward force (see below) by relating the forward force tightly to structure.

Secondly it develops a lot of strength through trying to reach and hold the ideal structure. We sink in the stance and bring the resting arms up and back with the hips forward. This puts a lot of isometric tension on the body and develops strength. In addition to that we have our forearms under tension during Sam Bai Fat (SBF) which develops them too. 

Thirdly we try to relax everything other than the forearms while we do SLT which when repeated over a descent length of time (a couple of years) and when one learns to relax under that kind of tension it is easier to get a deeper level of relaxation while doing the rest of the Wing Chun we do. 

Fourthly through doing SBF very slowly we develop forwards force through the arms that eventually comes into training in Chi Sao, which, through Chi Sao and training in drils, eventually comes into practical application allowing you to attack when the line is clear and avoid force that is not forward (coming from the opponent) without thought, it becomes completely automatic.

In my opinion none of that is easily achievable if one doesn't do SLT very slowly of extended periods of time. Hence, we do it for at least 10 minutes each time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2019)

APL76 said:


> we do it for at least 10 minutes each time.


Do you follow the CMA guideline that each move should be coordinated with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale of your breathing?

When you train slow, how do you coordinate your move with your breathing. If you coordinate your move with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you can't train your move too slow. If you make your slow move for more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you have just broken your single moves into parts.


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## yak sao (Oct 20, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you follow the CMA guideline that each move should be coordinated with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale of your breathing?
> 
> When you train slow, how do you coordinate your move with your breathing. If you coordinate your move with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you can't train your move too slow. If you make your slow move for more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you have just broken your single moves into parts.



Because WT/WC very often deals with an opponent by blitzing in with numerous attacks, even as many as several attacks per second, there is no way to exhale on every single attack.
If we tried to do this we would quickly hyperventilate and be at the mercy of our opponent.
That's not to say that there won't be an occasional strong exhale with a well placed kick or punch, but for the most part we seek to have normal breathing.

So during SNT training, we strive for deep, rhythmic breathing from the  diaphragm
 throughout the form, not trying to sync our breathing with the movements.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Because WT/WC very often deals with an opponent by blitzing in with numerous attacks, even as many as several attacks per second, there is no way to exhale on every single attack.


You don't have to inhale/exhale fully. You can inhale/exhale partially.

In CMA there is one "section breathing" training that you divide your breath into

- 1, you inhale fully, and then exhale fully.
- 1/2, you inhale 1/2, inhale another 1/2. You then exhale 1/2, exhale another 1/2.
- ...
- 1/7, you inhale 1/7, inhale another 1/7, … You then exhale 1/7, exhale another 1/7, ...

This way you can train both partial inhale and partial exhale.

If you throw several punches in 1 second, of course you cannot coordinate your breathing with your punch. that's the "fast extreme for speed".

I'm talking about the "slow extreme for power" that you slow down your move for more than 1 inhale or 1 exhale.




yak sao said:


> not trying to sync our breathing with the movements.


To switch from exhale to inhale (or the other way around) in the middle of a single move violates the power generation principle. The more that you do it, the less body coordination that you can achieve. 

On the

- outside, your hand should coordinate with your foot.
- inside, your breathing (Chi), intention (Yi), power generation (Li) should all coordinate together.

You can't have both inhale and exhale for either "compressing" or "releasing".​


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Because WT/WC very often deals with an opponent by blitzing in with numerous attacks, even as many as several attacks per second, there is no way to exhale on every single attack.



You can't exhale sharply several times in rapid succession from one inhalation? Weird.


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## APL76 (Oct 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you follow the CMA guideline that each move should be coordinated with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale of your breathing?
> 
> When you train slow, how do you coordinate your move with your breathing. If you coordinate your move with either 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you can't train your move too slow. If you make your slow move for more than 1 inhale, or 1 exhale, you have just broken your single moves into parts.



No. Breathing should be natural throughout all of it, not just SLT. I was specifically taught NOT to time breathing with movement. It is to be kept as close to natural breathing as possible.


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## wckf92 (Oct 21, 2019)

APL76 said:


> No. Breathing should be natural throughout all of it, not just SLT. I was specifically taught NOT to time breathing with movement. It is to be kept as close to natural breathing as possible.



Yup. Same here. Just breathe naturally.


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## yak sao (Oct 21, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You can't exhale sharply several times in rapid succession from one inhalation? Weird.



Yes of course I can , but that's not the way it should be trained.
As I and a couple of others have mentioned,  the goal of WC is to breathe naturally.
This doesn't disparage all the other martial arts that exhale on every attack, just another way Wing Chun is different.


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## Danny T (Oct 21, 2019)

There are a number of ways for the body to take in air and to off gas carbon dioxide. Costal breathing and Diaphragmatic are what we see the most of. In Form in WC we strive for natural, relaxed diaphragmatic breathing vs costal. Diaphragmatic breathing allows greater amount of air, helps lower the center of gravity and helps allow the elbows to stay inward and closer the the centerline vs costal breathing that expands the rib cage, raises the center of gravity, and pushes the elbows outward from the centerline as well as raises the shoulders slightly.
Don't hold your breath and don't exaggerate it. Just breathe when you need to.


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## wckf92 (Oct 21, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Don't hold your breath and don't exaggerate it. Just breathe when you need to.



This!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2019)

APL76 said:


> I was specifically taught NOT to time breathing with movement.


It's the other way around. You time your movement with your breathing.

A: How slow should I train my Taiji.
B: It depends on your breathing speed. When you just wake up in the morning, your breathing speed is slow, you do your Taiji slow. After you have run 5 miles, your breathing speed is fast, you do your Taiji fast.

To force your breathing speed is bad for your body.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2019)

DanT said:


> Any 10 min+ SLT serves to develop "Yi" or mental intent.





Danny T said:


> Don't hold your breath and don't exaggerate it. Just breathe when you need to.


If you coordinate your movement with your breathing (not the other way around), I just don't see how you can do SLT for 10 minutes.

You can only do in 2 ways:

1. Hold your breath slow - it's unhealth.
2. Do both inhale and exhale in a single move (such as a punch) - you cannot coordinate your power generation such as "compressing" and "releasing" with your breathing.

IMO, both 1 and 2 are not good training.


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## Danny T (Oct 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you coordinate your movement with your breathing (not the other way around), I just don't see how you can do SLT for 10 minutes.
> 
> You can only do in 2 ways:
> 
> ...



Not in SLT. In SLT in my training it is about position, structure, stance, elbow, centerline control, center of gravity control, forward elbow projection. Power generation will be enhanced by the structure but that will be in greatly expounded in Chum Kiu training.


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## Eric_H (Oct 21, 2019)

ShortBridge said:


> I actually had a chance to meet and train with @Eric_H a little bit last weekend. Terrific guy and some really interesting stuff. I think we had a lot of common ground, until it came to Chi Sao and then our differences were clear. Unfortunately, we saved that for last and didn't have enough time to riddle it out, but it's clear that we just regard it as different exercises entirely.
> 
> Hopefully we'll get a chance to revisit that later this month. It's always great to connect with people in real life and even better when there are differences and they are cool.



Was good meeting you and your student @ShortBridge - I hope you'll look me up if/when you end up in SF!


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## Eric_H (Oct 21, 2019)

geezer said:


> I'd definitely like to hear more about your very different types of chi-sau. Now I'm really curious.  It's really cool that you can accept that you are doing _different exercises_ rather than taking the "this is right and that is wrong" approach. By considering them different types of training, you leave yourself open to considering what the other drill can offer.



One of the interesting pieces in my line is our 5 wheel energy theory. It's more or less a retelling of five element theory, just viewed through a WC lens. 

A lot of what I see other lines do is (from my perspective) specialize in one or two of those energies, particularly Cheung and Saat (Crash and destroy). One thing that I think is special about HFY is we look to be able to play all 5 roles, and neutralize all 5. This has allowed me to see most of what other lines and other arts do and understand why they are effective... and how to in turn rob them of what they need to be effective (assuming I have the skill to pull it off in time).

Tends to open the brain up a bit to say "This works under these circumstances" instead of "that's right/wrong"


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 21, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Yes of course I can , but that's not the way it should be trained.



I'm not about to argue about what you SHOULD do. It's not my style. My comment was strictly because you said you COULD not. And that would be weird.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2019)

wckf92 said:


> Just breathe naturally.


How do you train your breathing for

- 1 step 1 punch.
- 1 step 2 punches.
- 1 step 3 punches.
- ...​


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## APL76 (Oct 21, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's the other way around. You time your movement with your breathing.
> 
> A: How slow should I train my Taiji.
> B: It depends on your breathing speed. When you just wake up in the morning, your breathing speed is slow, you do your Taiji slow. After you have run 5 miles, your breathing speed is fast, you do your Taiji fast.
> ...




Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in wing chun. 

You do realise that while there might (and that's a huge might) be some principles that are universal in across Chinese martial arts, that does not mean that all Chinese martial arts adhere to the same set of principles right?

And you don't force any breathing speed in wing chun, that's the point; you simply try to breath naturally. Indeed if you are timing you movements and your breathing together it could be argued that its you who are advocating forcing your breathing speed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2019)

APL76 said:


> And you don't force any breathing speed in wing chun,


When you

- walk, you can breath naturally.
- run, your breath can be 2 steps inhale, 2 steps exhale which is not natural any more.

For those styles that

- only train 1 step 1 punch (such as Baji, Chen Taiji, Xing Yi, …), this will not be an issue.
- also train fast punches (such a WC, preying mantis, long fist, …), this can be an issue.

When you chase your opponent with your chain punches, what will be your natural breathing suppose to look like?

In the following clip, he throws 17 punches non-stop. Did he

1. hold his breath during these 17 punches?
2. exhale partially at any punch he may like.
3. exhale partially and equally at each punch?
4. ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2019)

APL76 said:


> Maybe in whatever style of kung fu you do but not in wing chun.


Are you saying that WC has no concern on this issue?

If a WC guy who stands in front of a heavy bag, throws punches as hard as he can, and also as fast as he can, how will his "natural breath" suppose to look like?


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you
> 
> - walk, you can breath naturally.
> - run, your breath can be 2 steps inhale, 2 steps exhale which is not natural any more.



You're exerting more, your tissues need more oxygen, and your body increases the respiratory rate/depth to provide it.
How is that not natural?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're exerting more, your tissues need more oxygen, and your body increases the respiratory rate/depth to provide it.
> How is that not natural?


Natural = not fixed, has freedom to change.
Not natural = fixed, cannot be changed.

When I run, no matter what speed that I may run, I only use 2 steps 1 inhale, 2 steps 1 exhale. 

I have never done

- 1/2 step 1 inhale, 1/2 step 1 exhale,
- 1 step 1 inhale, 1 step 1 exhale,
- 3 steps 1 inhale, 3 steps 1 exhale,
- 4 steps 1 inhale, 4 steps 1 exhale,
- ...

That mean when I run, my breathing pattern is fixed (not natural).


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## Randy Pio (Oct 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like to train MA slow. It makes me to feel old. When I see old people move in slow speed, it upsets me.
> 
> Am I the only person who feels this way?




What about Hei-Gong?  That is the impression I get, from this thread.  That folks are practicing this set, with Hei Gong.

-RP


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## APL76 (Oct 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You're exerting more, your tissues need more oxygen, and your body increases the respiratory rate/depth to provide it.
> How is that not natural?


Exactly


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## APL76 (Oct 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Natural = not fixed, has freedom to change.
> Not natural = fixed, cannot be changed.
> 
> When I run, no matter what speed that I may run, I only use 2 steps 1 inhale, 2 steps 1 exhale.
> ...



When you run do you time your breathing with your footfalls? Or do you just breath, irrespective of it being rapid or slow, irrespective of the timing of your footfalls, just breath as your body needs you to breath, i.e. breath naturally? 

Wing Chun, as I learned both Yip Man and Yuen Kay San versions of it, indeed does have an interest in the way you breath = Naturally; not timed with movements. It's as simple as that. If you are training hard and are breathing faster, you just breath faster, you still don't time your movements with it, you simply breath naturally. If that means fast and deep from exertion, then that is entirely naturaly. You don't time it with your movements. It's a pretty simple concept to grasp.


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## wckf92 (Oct 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How do you train your breathing for
> 
> - 1 step 1 punch.
> - 1 step 2 punches.
> ...



Dude...I already stated it pretty clearly: NATURALLY. In other words, I inhale when I need to, exhale when I need to. It is not something I give conscious thought to. It happens all by itself.


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## Martial D (Oct 22, 2019)

geezer said:


> This WC forum has been really dead lately, but I suspect that there are still a few of us WC die-hards lurking about so I thought I'd throw out a few things that have been on my mind for general discussion.
> 
> One thing that a student has asked me about is the traditional practice of doing Siu Nim Tau (as it is spelled in my WT/VT lineage) at a _super-slow speed,_ especially the first third of the form involving the "saam pai fut" movements (the repeated centerline extensions and retractions of tan and fook sau).
> 
> ...



We always opened the class with a slow slt, and ended with a faster one. Sometimes the tan fook segment would take upwards of ten minutes.

I actually liked it, and still do it most mornings. I find it puts your mind into tune with your body.


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## APL76 (Oct 22, 2019)

Another question is do people do part of SLT slowly and then part of it fast?

We do the Sam Bai Fat section slowly but then do the rest fast. Obviously when you practice it it can, and should, be done at different speeds to learn it, refine it and so on. But for us the correct way to do the SLT is with Slow Sam Bai Fat and fast through the rest of it.


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2019)

One of the things I see many untrained do is 'hold' their breath when exerting heavily. To help them we teach them to exhale by making a sound. With wing chun the practitioner is taught to be relaxed and only exerting heavily when needed. Therefore to allow the body to just breathe naturally as it needs. We don't force breathing. As the wc practitioner exerts greater amounts of energy the body's own natural mechanisms as designed will increase the breathing rate. Just as it will in any other physical endeavor.


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## Danny T (Oct 22, 2019)

APL76 said:


> Another question is do people do part of SLT slowly and then part of it fast?
> 
> We do the Sam Bai Fat section slowly but then do the rest fast. Obviously when you practice it it can, and should, be done at different speeds to learn it, refine it and so on. But for us the correct way to do the SLT is with Slow Sam Bai Fat and fast through the rest of it.


Slowly at times, moderately at times, quickly at times, and building up to going as quickly as one is able. More for just something to differently. The drill attacks and countering do more for quickness development than doing the form.


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## yak sao (Oct 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not about to argue about what you SHOULD do. It's not my style. My comment was strictly because you said you COULD not. And that would be weird.



Make no mistakes, I'm weird alright.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 22, 2019)

yak sao said:


> Make no mistakes, I'm weird alright.


When I filled in some security questions for one website log in, there was one question, "What the food that you definite hate". My answer was, "meat". I must be weird.

When people disagree with me, I take it as "normal".


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## geezer (Oct 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When people disagree with me, I take it as "normal".


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## Danny T (Oct 23, 2019)

Geezer...That made me laugh out loud!!
Kung Fu Wang...I agree with Geezer in disagreeing with you just so you can be normal. And I don't want you to get dinged because I'm being disagreeable.


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## snake_monkey (Oct 23, 2019)

I will answer this: Yes. I have played it very slow. Sometimes in class, more often at seminars when there is more time spent training. It's a good workout for the horse but anything over 5 mins is probably best reserved for intermediate to advanced level practitioners.

I find the main benefit to be that when one plays the form in this way the movements themselves become more 'correct' or 'exact' in terms of muscle memory and relaxation. It may help to think about it this way; It is a way to get a different perspective on the form which may bring greater understanding of the form to the practitioner. This relates to mind-body understanding. I don't think of it in terms of any mystical Chi power but breathing slowly from the belly while keeping a pocket of air is not only energizing and invigorating but helps train proper breathing for Wing Chun in action. Just my thoughts.


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## Zeno Bokor (Oct 29, 2019)

APL76 said:


> Another question is do people do part of SLT slowly and then part of it fast?
> 
> We do the Sam Bai Fat section slowly but then do the rest fast. Obviously when you practice it it can, and should, be done at different speeds to learn it, refine it and so on. But for us the correct way to do the SLT is with Slow Sam Bai Fat and fast through the rest of it.



It really depends on the intended use of the movements for your lineage. For us, the first part of the form isn't about defending, it's about learning to use your elbow/wrist so that part is done slowly so that you can concentrate of the movement. The techniques that defend strikes or attack are done fast because you're training those techniques at normal speed but the huen sao we do slower because we use that for wrist strengthening. Also the general pace of the third form is faster than that of the second form which in turn is faster than the first form.


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## geezer (Oct 30, 2019)

Zeno Bokor said:


> It really depends on the intended use of the movements for your lineage.



_Zeno-_ which lineage are you from?


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## Zeno Bokor (Oct 30, 2019)

Lo Man Kam. Here's a video of our first form:
https://v-s.mobi/siu-lim-tao-小念頭-thierry-cuvillier-2016-taiwan-04:00

For me the huen sao done in the video is much to fast but i'm not going to criticize because he is much higher up the food chain than i am


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## skyeisonfire (Nov 3, 2019)

I've always been taught to be as slow as possible, and do it many, many, many, many times.  But I've always hated slow.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 3, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> I've always been taught to be as slow as possible,


Do you change your breathing in the middle of your punch?

start punch ----> exhale ---> inhale ---> end punch

If you don't, how long can one of your inhale (or exhale) may last?


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## skyeisonfire (Nov 3, 2019)

I'm good at breathing,  been doing it since I was born lol.  But seriously, I never really paid attention.  Breathing to me was learned in the gym during slow reps and isometric holds.  I just do it automatically.  Usually push movements exhale and pulling movements inhale.  But SNT is  a little different.  I guess I use the same principle but just longer duration.  I never did it super slow anyways.  Slow is never my speed.


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## FinalStreet (Aug 3, 2020)

skyeisonfire said:


> I'm good at breathing,  been doing it since I was born lol.  But seriously, I never really paid attention.  Breathing to me was learned in the gym during slow reps and isometric holds.  I just do it automatically.  Usually push movements exhale and pulling movements inhale.  But SNT is  a little different.  I guess I use the same principle but just longer duration.  I never did it super slow anyways.  Slow is never my speed.



SNT, long hard work, but huge pay-off. (not in drills). It's not a drill. So if you do not feel immediate benefits within 2-3 minutes after, then something wrong, if feel some parts worked some did not, probably incorrect. SNT is only taught Correct behind closed doors. Even Yip Man was in the selling business. Ofcourse everybody knows slow, but only probably less than 1000 people correct can use SNT efficiently. It's not for everybody to know.


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