# lok sau



## matsu (Jun 11, 2008)

i have just started lok sau in my training and have been lucky to have a private lesson solely focused on the techniques.
i also see my son every sunday as well s the nites he trains with me so we can practise then.
are there any techniques i can practise on whilst i am training home alone.......sad but true.
or just concentrate on each individual technique singularly?

ideas?- any help appreciated?

matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 11, 2008)

Matsu, 

I would take your time with lok sao. 
It is an important drill to practise and practise well

I would just keep practising changing guard, chain punching, stamp kicks etc at home and keep lok sao for class


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## graychuan (Jun 11, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Matsu,
> 
> I would take your time with lok sao.
> It is an important drill to practise and practise well
> ...


 

   I completely agree. Luk-Sao( as we spell it but we all know what we are talking about. Welcome to the world of Wing Chun!:wink2  is the platform that brings the art to life. From a romantic perspective the Low Fook/High Fook hand is the Crane and the Tan/Bong hand is the Snake.
  From a practical perspective...it teaches proper structure, range and builds a platform for sensitivity. So its very important to get this right. My T'ai Ch'i Ch'uan Sifu used to say, 'You'll get there faster by going slower'.


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## matsu (Jun 11, 2008)

kamon.....are you my reincarnated conscience? lol i knew you above the others were gonna tell me keep it slow :surfer:

but thank you for doing so. i practise as much as can in all the very basics.

graychuan.. thank youfor the "romantic" help- i will remember those more than any other explanation.

many thanks
matsu


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## mook jong man (Jun 11, 2008)

You can practice sil lum tao form, pivoting from side to side making sure to pivot through the center of your feet, punching make sure each punch is in the same spot.
 practice moving in your stance in any direction staying locked in ,sunk down and back straight.
 Pick out movements of sil lum tao and do them over and over again in a correct and relaxed manner. 
Stand in front of a mirror with your guard up and throw single punches check to see that you dont telegraph start off slow and then work up to fast ensure there is no pre movement, only forward motion no drawing back before you punch dont telegraph with your face either keep a relaxed poker face. Thats all i can think of at the moment.


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## geezer (Jun 11, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> *You can practice sil lum tao form, pivoting from side to side *making sure to pivot through the center of your feet, punching make sure each punch is in the same spot. ...practice moving in your stance in any direction staying locked in ,sunk down and back straight.



I assume you mean, "sil lum tao" form,_ and_ pivoting from side to side (as a a separate activity). If so, I'd agree.

Interestingly, you advise _"pivoting through the center of your feet"_. Many branches of WC teach pivoting weighting the heels. Others insist on weighting forward, on the balls of the feet. Some insist on moving both feet simultaneously, others start by turning one foot, then the second in sequence to maintain "rootedness", even in turning. In my branch, like yours, we also favor the center of the foot. My pesonal advice, though, is to do the best you can with what your sifu teaches. If you develop a strong, balanced structure, it will work, regardless.


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## matsu (Jun 11, 2008)

yep.....the more i learn the more i find out there is more to learn....

thanks again for the input.... matsu


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## mook jong man (Jun 12, 2008)

Yeah i meant pivoting separately, it teaches you to find the center of your body, we were taught to pivot through the center of the feet because if you pivot on the heels you have no resistance and can be pushed back and if you pivot on your balls of the feet you can be pulled forward. 
In the center is where you have the most resistance. But i know other branches do it differently.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 12, 2008)

We also pivot through the centre of the feet. Pivoting on the balls or toes of the feet is unstable and designed for quick movement

In a real street fight this is very high risk
My boxer friends have had the same problem where they use their toes and were taken to the floor almost immediately

Matsu - I wasn't telling you to go slow for traditions sake. Lok sao builds muscle memory and needs time to sink in

Unlike some other arts, training as much as you can in a short space of time won't make a dramatic difference to your WC
It is doing these drills over a long space of time

ie a person who practises chi sao twice a week for 15 years will be much better than someone who does it five times a week for 3 years


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## matsu (Jun 12, 2008)

kamon- i realised that:supcool:. you seem to be the reply i am already hearing in my head!
and i,m beginning to really see how complex WC is.......DAMMIT!

but loving it..
thanks again matey... and chime in anytime your comments always valid 

matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 13, 2008)

Matsu - WC gets easier. 
When I started, I struggled big time
But after 8 years of training, while I am still learning, it has become easier to understand new techniques and principles

I cannot speak for any other federations, but I know that Kamon students are usually a very good standard after two years. Some are great after just a year 

My advice to you Matsu is to enjoy the training. Don't beat yourself up if you don't get things straight away


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## brocklee (Jun 15, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Matsu - WC gets easier.
> 
> My advice to you Matsu is to enjoy the training. Don't beat yourself up if you don't get things straight away



Oh yes, it does get easier 

I agree with most everything you say except this:
ie a person who practises chi sao twice a week for 15 years will be much better than someone who does it five times a week for 3 years

This is basically stating that if you just do it for a large amount of time, you'll become good.  Which I think isn't a true statement on a few levels because the person that is doing it five times a week is showing that he/she has more of a desire and commitment to learn.  This type of student usually tends to pick up the concept of relaxing the muscles faster because  many more punches are thrown with less amount time in between repetitions.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 16, 2008)

My example was a bit of a generalisation, and I apologize for that. I have trained every day non stop for a long time in wing chun. Yet there are senior guys who I barely see at class who can still outdo me in chi sao or in feeding techniques

Yet if you force the training (ie if you start as a beginner and go to class five times a week) you will overcomplicate yourself, burn yourself out and won't really have time to analyze what you are actually doing


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## matsu (Jun 17, 2008)

thanks guys- i have a tendency to do that but as life is at the mo,it slows me down anyway.
 i train in class mon and thurs and i practise properly iehter wallbag/master james dvd and on my own weds/sat and i get my son who attends monday classes to lok sau with me sundays.
but i find i am constantly working on something that a class brought to my attention as a weak area.
 last nite was rapid retreat chain punching with circle step.... OMG my feet wont work!!

tahnks again for the support and advice. this all helps lots!

matsu


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## chisauking (Jun 19, 2008)

Look-sau or poon-sau is vastly over'looked' by most wing chun people. Most just want to race ahead and go onto main chisau exchange.

In the begining, look-sau teaches you wing chun's 'bread & butter' 'shapes'. During the reciprocal exchange, your fook is checking the bong, and the tan is checking the fook. The idea being to teach you how to flow from one 'shape' to the next....

On a higher level, look-sau allows you to learn to absorb & displace your opponent's energy, not just using the hands, but using your structure and 'ma'.

If you meet a very good wing chun practitioner, you will see that they can beat you using 'just' the four bread and butter shapes: tan, bong, fook, wu.

If you are practising by yourself, focus on the right positions of your 'shapes' and the direction of your intended energy.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 19, 2008)

Chisauking, 

First off, I presume that you are not suggesting Poon sao and lok sao are the same thing. Your statement 'look sao or poon sao' seems to read that the drills are the same

Also, 'beating' a person in lok sao is a bad phrase to use
Look sao (lok sao) is a static drill, meaning that at basic level you are not looking to hit your opponent. You are merely developing shapes

Too many people think that chi sao is a fight or a realistic tool. It is not. It is building stick and sensitivity and the ability to mould round shapes. It does not matter to me that much if someone gets a hit through my shapes - in a fight, that will often happen. It is what you do about it afterwards

I expect like many, you hit a person in chi sao and think that is the end and 'reset' your shapes (ie start again) as opposed to carrying on


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## chisauking (Jun 19, 2008)

Kamon guy sez: 

First off, I presume that you are not suggesting Poon sao and lok sao are the same thing. Your statement 'look sao or poon sao' seems to read that the drills are the same

csk: Perhaps you care to tell us the fundamental differences?

Also, 'beating' a person in lok sao is a bad phrase to use
Look sao (lok sao) is a static drill, meaning that at basic level you are not looking to hit your opponent. You are merely developing shapes

csk: When I say 'beat' I mean to nullify the opponent's moves, to control his intentions. You don't need to hit anyone in order to control them.

Too many people think that chi sao is a fight or a realistic tool. It is not. It is building stick and sensitivity and the ability to mould round shapes. It does not matter to me that much if someone gets a hit through my shapes - in a fight, that will often happen. It is what you do about it afterwards

csk: If chisau isn't a realistic tool -- in the sense, you won't be using it -- then why train it at all? Are you saying bong, tan, fook, wu aren't realistic? You can't use those 'shapes' in combat?

I expect like many, you hit a person in chi sao and think that is the end and 'reset' your shapes (ie start again) as opposed to carrying on

csk: Your expectation is presumptous. Besides, this topic is about look-sau, not 'gwoh-sau'


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## matsu (Jun 19, 2008)

csk- you seem to be taken a different view point as a personal attck there mate..... chill!!!

matsu


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## brocklee (Jun 19, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Also, 'beating' a person in lok sao is a bad phrase to use
> Look sao (lok sao) is a static drill, meaning that at basic level you are not looking to hit your opponent. You are merely developing shapes
> 
> csk: When I say 'beat' I mean to nullify the opponent's moves, to control his intentions. You don't need to hit anyone in order to control them.



That's right.  The reason for all the sensitivity training is to allow you the ability to anticipate the opponents moves and control them.  It makes us appear to be faster when in fact all we're doing is jumping the gun on the next move while the other person is in a more reactive state.


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## chisauking (Jun 19, 2008)

I would like to say that look-sau can't be a static drill because one has to move in order to roll. However, if you mean that we should practice look-sau in a 'stationary' position, then I feel this is very 'low level' thinking. Fighting is 'dynamic'. Even when we are standing, we are constantly adjusting, so why would our training be 'static'?

Without movement, we are losing the opportunity to adjust our footwork, our ability to shong-ma, tui-ma, juen-ma, etc., etc.

What a waste of opportunity.

But...each to their own.

Or, perhaps you could try practising look-sau with motion\footwork, and let me know how you get on. Your hands are so much more powerful with the body 'behind' it.


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## brocklee (Jun 19, 2008)

chisauking said:


> I would like to say that look-sau can't be a static drill because one has to move in order to roll. However, if you mean that we should practice look-sau in a 'stationary' position, then I feel this is very 'low level' thinking. Fighting is 'dynamic'. Even when we are standing, we are constantly adjusting, so why would our training be 'static'?
> 
> Without movement, we are losing the opportunity to adjust our footwork, our ability to shong-ma, tui-ma, juen-ma, etc., etc.
> 
> ...



Right again.  One thing that has to be remembered when on the forums is that everyone is at a different level.  This should be respected because we've all been there.


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## graychuan (Jun 19, 2008)

This is Chi Sao play from the our Louisville Kentucky seminar this past weekend.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 20, 2008)

chisauking said:


> I would like to say that look-sau can't be a static drill because one has to move in order to roll. However, if you mean that we should practice look-sau in a 'stationary' position, then I feel this is very 'low level' thinking. Fighting is 'dynamic'. Even when we are standing, we are constantly adjusting, so why would our training be 'static'?.


 
Oh my word....
Your quote of 'low level thinking' seems to have mirrored back on your self here. Static drills are ones that are designed to train basic movements in a repetitive fashion
There should be no deviation of the drill itself. 
Chi sao is different because anything can happen (ie you can end up in muen sao to muen sao, or with underhooks)

If you are playing lok sao with various switches (ie attempting to hit your opponent through the fook sao guard) then it is no longer lok sao 

It is like claiming that a punch that turns into a fut sao at the last second is still a punch

Traditional lok sao is done in a stationary position, but can be evolved to include wing chun footwork
Indeed at Kamon, we include a drill that includes switching between dan chi sao and lok sao



chisauking said:


> Without movement, we are losing the opportunity to adjust our footwork, our ability to shong-ma, tui-ma, juen-ma, etc., etc.
> 
> What a waste of opportunity.
> 
> ...


As stated before, we have done that


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## KamonGuy2 (Jun 20, 2008)

chisauking said:


> Kamon guy sez:
> 
> First off, I presume that you are not suggesting Poon sao and lok sao are the same thing. Your statement 'look sao or poon sao' seems to read that the drills are the same
> 
> csk: Perhaps you care to tell us the fundamental differences?


Don't you know???
Maybe you should have a look at youtube as there are countless videos showing the differences, both in movement and structure 



chisauking said:


> Also, 'beating' a person in lok sao is a bad phrase to use
> Look sao (lok sao) is a static drill, meaning that at basic level you are not looking to hit your opponent. You are merely developing shapes
> 
> csk: When I say 'beat' I mean to nullify the opponent's moves, to control his intentions. You don't need to hit anyone in order to control them.


That wasn't the point. It was the use of the word 'beat'. Do you seriously care whether you 'win' against your opponent
Chi sao should be a drill, where sometimes you get into positions of contriol and sometimes your opponent does. You will roll with students of all levels and it doesn't really matter if you beat them o rnot, as long as you are learning new techniques



chisauking said:


> Too many people think that chi sao is a fight or a realistic tool. It is not. It is building stick and sensitivity and the ability to mould round shapes. It does not matter to me that much if someone gets a hit through my shapes - in a fight, that will often happen. It is what you do about it afterwards
> 
> csk: If chisau isn't a realistic tool -- in the sense, you won't be using it -- then why train it at all? Are you saying bong, tan, fook, wu aren't realistic? You can't use those 'shapes' in combat?


I wasn't talking about the shapes I was talking about the drill
As stated you will use the elements of sensitivity and stick. You will of course use one of the shapes. But you will not roll hands with a person!!!

You train shapes otherways - doing them in drilled combinations with huen bo for example. Chi sao is there to help build sensitivity and stick. 
You are not training a realsitic fight scenario



chisauking said:


> I expect like many, you hit a person in chi sao and think that is the end and 'reset' your shapes (ie start again) as opposed to carrying on
> 
> csk: Your expectation is presumptous. Besides, this topic is about look-sau, not 'gwoh-sau'


You turned the topic into chi sao and look sao
Chi sao includes free attack, or gwoh sao


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