# Love Child or Bastard ... what's in a name?



## MA-Caver (May 25, 2011)

Interesting article about the word usage of the Schwarzenegger debacle and how they define the child conceived out of wed-lock.   





> "Love Child" How a bastard phrase went mainstream. By Katie RoiphePosted Tuesday, May 24, 2011, at 6:37 PM ET  Arnold Schwarzenegger and his family. Click image to expand.Arnold Schwarzenegger, Maria Shriver, and their children togetherThe other afternoon, as people were pondering the breakup of Arnold Schwarzenegger's marriage, I found myself thinking about the origins of the ubiquitous but complicated term love child. If the word was once slangy or tabloidish, news organizations ranging from CBS News to the Washington Post now seem to consider it a straightforward descriptive term, as if it were the Standard English word for a child born outside of marriage. So it seems like a fruitful time to untangle its vexed etymology.  http://www.slate.com/id/2295419?wpisrc=xs_wp_0001


----------



## Blade96 (May 25, 2011)

I actually despise the word bastard for those people. My cousins some of them and even myniece were conceived and born out of wedlock. I'd swiftly object to anyone calling em bastards.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 25, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> I actually despise the word bastard for those people. My cousins some of them and even myniece were conceived and born out of wedlock. I'd swiftly object to anyone calling em bastards.


The true meaning of the word is that they are children not subject to the family title or fortune. In modern American society we have done away with the concept. If the DNA matches, its your kid. I think the song "Love Child" helped spread the term and its meaning. I know every time I hear the word, I think of the song.
Sean


----------



## MA-Caver (May 25, 2011)

Further reading on the Schwarzenegger scandal ... 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ac/20110525...jA3luX3RvcF9zdG9yaWVzBHNsawNzY2h3YXJ6ZW5lZ2c-


----------



## granfire (May 25, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> The true meaning of the word is that they are children not subject to the family title or fortune. In modern American society we have done away with the concept. If the DNA matches, its your kid. I think the song "Love Child" helped spread the term and its meaning. I know every time I hear the word, I think of the song.
> Sean



Well, 'Bastard' usually meant a sad life for the child. Somewhat unprotected and outside of polite society. 
'Love Child' has such a nice, romantic ring to it...though it was probably something that came about as the same time as 'Cock' was no longer a polite term for a male chicken.


----------



## Big Don (May 25, 2011)

Bastard is the correct term, and has been for hundreds of years. Like many other things, the shame has been taken out of unwed child bearing. There is a term for that too, decadence...


----------



## granfire (May 25, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Bastard is the correct term, and has been for hundreds of years. Like many other things, the shame has been taken out of unwed child bearing. There is a term for that too, decadence...



LOL

I don't think 'decadence' fits in there'

I think it's about time that the shame has been taken away. It takes 2 to tango...and let's not get down the road of how it's a male dominated society, blah blah....since marriage is only of greater importance if the _male _line must be documented.


----------



## Big Don (May 25, 2011)

granfire said:


> LOL
> 
> I don't think 'decadence' fits in there'


 On the contrary, it fits perfectly:
*dec·a·dence*

&#8194; &#8194; 
noun 1. *the act or process of falling into an inferior condition or state; deterioration; decay: Some historians hold that the fall of Rome can be attributed to internal decadence. *

2. *moral degeneration or decay; turpitude. *

3. *unrestrained or excessive self-indulgence. *



> I think it's about time that the shame has been taken away. It takes 2 to tango...and let's not get down the road of how it's a male dominated society, blah blah....since marriage is only of greater importance if the _male _line must be documented.


----------



## granfire (May 26, 2011)

Big Don said:


> On the contrary, it fits perfectly:
> *dec·a·dence*
> 
> &#8194; &#8194;
> ...



It's a matter of opinion.


Taking the stigma off a child not born into a marriage and the decline of Rome are hardly on the same page.


----------



## Big Don (May 26, 2011)

granfire said:


> It's a matter of opinion.
> 
> 
> Taking the stigma off a child not born into a marriage and the decline of Rome are hardly on the same page.


The stigma should never have been the child's but, rather, both parents.


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 26, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Bastard is the correct term, and has been for hundreds of years. Like many other things, the shame has been taken out of unwed child bearing. There is a term for that too, decadence...


I don't think the term does fit, Don. This kid is going to get payed.
Sean


----------



## granfire (May 26, 2011)

Big Don said:


> The stigma should never have been the child's but, rather, both parents.



Oh, well, should have could have would have...
Unless the spawn sprung from the loins of a big time noble man to set his illegitimate brat up, the kid suffered. Always has. As well as the woman who gave life to it.
The sperm donor? Not so much. To put blame on him is a new thing...and only if he is married other wise.


----------



## Nomad (May 26, 2011)

Big Don said:


> The stigma should never have been the child's but, rather, both parents.



But the term, which may be technically correct but which has always carried a big stigma with it, refers to the child, not the parents.  By definition, he or she is the one stuck with it.

On that basis alone, I have no objections to seeing it go away.  I have fewer problems if people want to insult the parents; they're grown ups and ought to be able to handle it.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (May 26, 2011)

I find the term Bastard to be correct. Love Child is not correct... maybe Horny tuesday afternoon in the parlor child would be better fitting for Arnolds Bastard.

besides I am watching the Game of Thrones series on HBO, Calling someone a Bastard seems as natural there as calling a Midget an Imp... just gets my PC funnybone all tickled.

DNA has become a bane to the Arnolds in the world, of course one look at the little Barbarian Bastard and you can tell its noone elses but Arnolds.

but ya lets call him a Love Child so we dont hurt his fragile sense of self worth.... because I am sure the fact that his mother cheated on his father and had a baby with another married man whos wife was also pregnant, and now the guy who has been your father for 14 years suddenly is no relation at all and your real father is the joke of the political and acting world.... ya that wont bug him at all... hes a LOVECHILD afterall :shrug:


----------



## Touch Of Death (May 26, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I find the term Bastard to be correct. Love Child is not correct... maybe Horny tuesday afternoon in the parlor child would be better fitting for Arnolds Bastard.
> 
> besides I am watching the Game of Thrones series on HBO, Calling someone a Bastard seems as natural there as calling a Midget an Imp... just gets my PC funnybone all tickled.
> 
> ...


I didn't know we were calling the little people 'demons', when was that custom?
Sean


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (May 26, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> I didn't know we were calling the little people 'demons', when was that custom?
> Sean


its a scifi show, not a historical documentary... it is still amusing as non PC as the show is... it started slow, but has been getting better and better each show. I really like it.


----------



## granfire (May 26, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I find the term Bastard to be correct. Love Child is not correct... maybe Horny tuesday afternoon in the parlor child would be better fitting for Arnolds Bastard.
> 
> besides I am watching the Game of Thrones series on HBO, Calling someone a Bastard seems as natural there as calling a Midget an Imp... just gets my PC funnybone all tickled.
> 
> ...




That is putting the fault on the shoulders of the one person who had no say-so in the situation. 
Let's face it: 'Bastard' is still a derogatory term. 
"Horny tuesday afternoon in the parlor child" probably is close to the truth, but sheesh... the kid still has no fault and is doomed to carry the burden...(vacectomies FTW?)


----------



## Carol (May 26, 2011)

Of course the kid is getting ripped off!  How else is he gonna get two Christmases and parents vying for the kid's affection when the divorce happens?   The poor bastards miss out on a lot of loot... :lol2:


----------



## Big Don (May 26, 2011)

Carol said:


> Of course the kid is getting ripped off!  How else is he gonna get two Christmases and parents vying for the kid's affection when the divorce happens?   The poor bastards miss out on a lot of loot... :lol2:


Arnold's kid is not about to be a POOR bastard, the rich bastard


----------



## granfire (May 27, 2011)

Big Don said:


> Arnold's kid is not about to be a POOR bastard, the rich bastard




Well, he falls under the category of 'offspring of the powerful' 
They were generally speaking not too bad off anyhow.


----------



## Blade96 (May 27, 2011)

the sperminator


----------



## David43515 (May 28, 2011)

Language changes in use right along with fashion. There`s absolutely nothing wrong with the words "bastard,cripple,fat,retarded,dumb,or whore". They`re words with specific meanings that were used for hundreds of years. But people added their own sense of superiority to them and began using them as a slur. So we no longer have midgets or dwarves, we have "little people". No one is mentally retarded, they`re "developmentally challenged".....despite the fact that retarded just means slower than normal. I was born and raised in Ohio, family`s been there since one of my ancestor`s got a land grant as his Army pension for fighting in the war of 1812. But you can bet I`d catch alot of flack if I ever tried to refer to myself as a native American. Personally I think it`s foolishness. IT`s one of the reasons that we have company execs claiming that "unfortunate mistruthes circulated" rather than saying "someone lied".

Got news for you. I`m not over-weight, pleasingly plump, or even calloricly challenged....I`m fat. My hair isn`t thinning either, it`s falling out. I`m going bald. What`s left isn`t silver either, it`s grey because I`m getting old. Not because i`m advancing in years, or maturing (something my wife NEVER accused me of), but because I`m getting old. And I`m okay with it.


----------



## Cryozombie (May 29, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> the sperminator


 
I... saw that movie.  

And Edward *****hands.

I'll shut up now...


----------



## Blade96 (May 29, 2011)

Cryozombie said:


> I... saw that movie.
> 
> And Edward *****hands.
> 
> I'll shut up now...



Haa.....


----------



## David43515 (May 30, 2011)

Sorry about that last post. I was in a bit of a mood. Even I read that and though "what an a**hole."


----------



## granfire (May 30, 2011)

David43515 said:


> Sorry about that last post. I was in a bit of a mood. Even I read that and though "what an a**hole."



LOL, I thought it was refreshingly to the point.
Well, aside from the fact that I can get on a diet, or buy a wig...changing the manner in which I was conceived, not so much.


----------



## shima (May 30, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> besides I am watching the Game of Thrones series on HBO, Calling someone a Bastard seems as natural there as calling a Midget an Imp... just gets my PC funnybone all tickled.



Actually what's extra interesting in Game of Thrones (and more specifically the books where it all started) is that Bastards in that world have a special last name they take to denote that they are a bastard. 

So Jon Snow being a child of the north, has the last name of Snow and not Stark in the series because all children given the last name of Snow are bastards in the northern part of that world. There's also other last names for bastards based around where they were from such as Waters, Storm, Sand, etc. 

Anyhoo it's just an interesting concept. I mean imagine if we actually did that in real life, it'd be like permanent branding and everyone would know you held no legitimate claim to any family inheritance. Can you imagine if your father is John Smith, your mother Jane Doe, but you get to be Jimmy Doomed or something equally awkward of a name that is clearly not from your parents?


----------



## Carol (May 30, 2011)

Interesting point Shima.  

As an imperfect (but real-life) comparison...I have relatives who decided to give their child a last name that was different from either of their own.  Their reasons why are outside the scope of this discussion, but I will say that they were unique and personal...and unrelated to the parentage of the child.

This was very difficult for the older folks (particularly the child's grandparents), because they associate different last names with matters such as illegitimacy, remarriage, questionable parentage -- none of which applied to the child in question.  

However, the child's name was not Jimmy Doom.  :lol:   As far as I can tell...they have not seemed to mind their unique name while growing up.    It certainly hasn't affected their academic performance (just graduated from high school, with honors, and heading to college).

I think what bothered the grandparents the most was the child being "labeled" in a negative way...or perhaps the child being labeled something they were not.  Considering that bothered the grandmother in particular for a very long time (sadly, she's now passed on), I wonder if that has bothered her more than the child actually being illegitimate?


----------



## Nomad (May 31, 2011)

David43515 said:


> Language changes in use right along with fashion. There`s absolutely nothing wrong with the words "bastard,cripple,fat,retarded,dumb,or whore". They`re words with specific meanings that were used for hundreds of years. But people added their own sense of superiority to them and began using them as a slur. So we no longer have midgets or dwarves, we have "little people". No one is mentally retarded, they`re "developmentally challenged".....despite the fact that retarded just means slower than normal. I was born and raised in Ohio, family`s been there since one of my ancestor`s got a land grant as his Army pension for fighting in the war of 1812. But you can bet I`d catch alot of flack if I ever tried to refer to myself as a native American. Personally I think it`s foolishness. IT`s one of the reasons that we have company execs claiming that "unfortunate mistruthes circulated" rather than saying "someone lied".
> 
> Got news for you. I`m not over-weight, pleasingly plump, or even calloricly challenged....I`m fat. My hair isn`t thinning either, it`s falling out. I`m going bald. What`s left isn`t silver either, it`s grey because I`m getting old. Not because i`m advancing in years, or maturing (something my wife NEVER accused me of), but because I`m getting old. And I`m okay with it.



The difficulty is that many words, while their technical meaning may be accurate, acquire baggage through usage.  If a term is used by enough people over a long enough time as a derogatory comment designed to hurt someone, then it will continue to do so, even if the person using the word means it in it's original context.  You can't readily divorce the term from the negative connotations.

On this basis, it's sometimes useful to make new terms that don't carry the same message of scorn or ridicule.  

Language is never constant; it evolves constantly, and the meanings of words and the message the word carries changes over time.  This is natural drift, and will happen.  Calling someone a "scoundrel" or a "mountebank" is pretty trivial and meaningless now, but were at one point fairly dire insults.  

What's equally interesting is that sometimes a group will collectively work to reclaim a derogatory term and change it's context (see the use of the N-word in rap lyrics... it simply doesn't have the same connotation as when an "outsider" to the group uses it).


----------



## Blade96 (May 31, 2011)

My so called illegitimate cousins and my illegitimate niece have no problem with their names. They have our family names. and no one cares that the parents werent married. They are treated as just as much a part of our family, because they are, as anyone else.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (May 31, 2011)

I wonder what is truely more damaging.. someone calling a person by a name with negative connotations attached to it, or a person who grows up dealing with the fact that his parents were to selfish, or to stupid to dedicate themselves to a strong relationship and a family unit to nurture, protect, and teach the person to be the best person they could in turn be?


----------



## Balrog (May 31, 2011)

I dunno.  You haven't really lived until a charming British or Aussie lady has called you a "bahstahd".  :lol:


----------



## Blade96 (May 31, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I wonder what is truely more damaging.. someone calling a person by a name with negative connotations attached to it, or a person who grows up dealing with the fact *that his parents were to selfish, or to stupid to dedicate themselves to a strong relationship and a family unit to nurture, protect, and teach the person to be the best person they could in turn be?*



with two of my cousins, the father abused their mom who is my first cousin. I am glad they never got married. It would have been harder to get away if she had been. She was not selfish.


----------



## Carol (May 31, 2011)

Balrog said:


> I dunno.  You haven't really lived until a charming British or Aussie lady has called you a "bahstahd".  :lol:



Howsabout a Bostonian? The accent is similar


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 1, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> with two of my cousins, the father abused their mom who is my first cousin. I am glad they never got married. It would have been harder to get away if she had been. She was not selfish.


 
to have a kid with someone who is not a strong partner for you and for the kid is either selfish or stupid the vast majority of times.
sometimes physical things beyond your control happens, like someone dies, or has a life altering experience, or is raped, or something else that is not normal, and not a valid choice.. sounds like your Aunt was either selfish or stupid in her choices of men.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> to have a kid with someone who is not a strong partner for you and for the kid is either selfish or stupid the vast majority of times.
> sometimes physical things beyond your control happens, like someone dies, or has a life altering experience, or is raped, or something else that is not normal, and not a valid choice.. sounds like your Aunt was either selfish or stupid in her choices of men.


There is that third choice, her mother was abused and taught her to seek abusive men. Not sure if that one is selfish or stupid given you think its one or the other. I await your brilliant reply, or did you just need to insult some random poster's Aunt?
Sean


----------



## Balrog (Jun 1, 2011)

Carol said:


> Howsabout a Bostonian? The accent is similar


 
Can't answer that.  So far, I've only been called a bahstahd by an English lady and an Aussie lady.  I guess I haven't offended any ladies from Boston.  Yet.   :lol:


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 1, 2011)

Touch Of Death said:


> There is that third choice, her mother was abused and taught her to seek abusive men. Not sure if that one is selfish or stupid given you think its one or the other. I await your brilliant reply, or did you just need to insult some random poster's Aunt?
> Sean


 
I toss ignorant in with stupid. You can change ignorant, but the decisions made involving either is usually the same.. The fact remains if what you say is true there was still a choice made, and it was a bad choice. If a person grows up in a family full of criminals and grows up to break a law we throw them in jail, we don't say well they had a bad upbringing so lets go ahead and forgive them.. of course thats what the defense attorneys want you to believe, and in the worst situations sometimes some mercy is shown and charges are reduced but the fact remains that we hold people accountable for their actions.
to many people now days think that its perfectly ok to just run around have sex and if you get knocked up its a minor annoyance... collect child support, or welfare, or other forms of public support(male or female) send the kids to others to take care of and still go about your day with or without the mother/father... its not ok, but it seems to be getting a pass from our society as normal simply because more and more people are doing it, yet our economy is failing, everything wrong you can imagine is happening more and more... is it a symptom or a cause? who knows but in regards to family and having kids, like I said in the vast majority of cases its a choice, a choice that can easily be made one way or the other, and when it does not work out well it can almost always be linked back directly to selfish or stupid choices...change out ignorant with stupid if it makes you sleep better at night Sean. It was not an insult its the truth. Give me a reason that is not based on selfishness or stupidty/ignorance.... other then what I mentioned previously about rape, etc. and I see if its not a choice... you example was still a choice... seeking out abusive men is a choice afterall.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 1, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I toss ignorant in with stupid. You can change ignorant, but the decisions made involving either is usually the same.. The fact remains if what you say is true there was still a choice made, and it was a bad choice. If a person grows up in a family full of criminals and grows up to break a law we throw them in jail, we don't say well they had a bad upbringing so lets go ahead and forgive them.. of course thats what the defense attorneys want you to believe, and in the worst situations sometimes some mercy is shown and charges are reduced but the fact remains that we hold people accountable for their actions.
> to many people now days think that its perfectly ok to just run around have sex and if you get knocked up its a minor annoyance... collect child support, or welfare, or other forms of public support(male or female) send the kids to others to take care of and still go about your day with or without the mother/father... its not ok, but it seems to be getting a pass from our society as normal simply because more and more people are doing it, yet our economy is failing, everything wrong you can imagine is happening more and more... is it a symptom or a cause? who knows but in regards to family and having kids, like I said in the vast majority of cases its a choice, a choice that can easily be made one way or the other, and when it does not work out well it can almost always be linked back directly to selfish or stupid choices...change out ignorant with stupid if it makes you sleep better at night Sean. It was not an insult its the truth. Give me a reason that is not based on selfishness or stupidty/ignorance.... other then what I mentioned previously about rape, etc. and I see if its not a choice... you example was still a choice... seeking out abusive men is a choice afterall.


Ignorance is a better term.


----------



## Blade96 (Jun 1, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> to have a kid with someone who is not a strong partner for you and for the kid is either selfish or stupid the vast majority of times.
> sometimes physical things beyond your control happens, like someone dies, or has a life altering experience, or is raped, or something else that is not normal, and not a valid choice.. sounds like your Aunt was either selfish or stupid in her choices of men.



My cousin (not aunt) was just a teenager at the time, and sometimes teens make dumb choices. and she had 2 kids as  a teen.

When she got older and more mature, she left him.  like i said i am glad she wasn't married to the jerk. would have made it harder.



Touch Of Death said:


> *some random poster*



Hey. 

My cousin's Mom (yes my aunt) never real had a family, she was adopted. And yes she had issues which she may have passed on to her daughter who wound up a teen mom.  Luckily, her other sisters turned out well, one was grown and married when she had kids, and the other is in late 30's is childless and unmarried but has a good bf of like 6 years maybe.

The teen mom's children are now young adults, hold down jobs, and are still not married and have no children though one has  a long time bf.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 1, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> My cousin (not aunt) was just a teenager at the time, and sometimes teens make dumb choices. and she had 2 kids as a teen.
> 
> When she got older and more mature, she left him.  like i said i am glad she wasn't married to the jerk. would have made it harder.
> 
> ...


 
see making bad choices does not mean having to live a bad life or be a bad person.
I am sure that your cousin, and aunt are doing the best they can with the choices they made, and the choices their parents made for them. My hope is that lessons are learned from mistakes and the future generations do not repeat the mistakes of the parents.
Hell my wife and I both are products of divorced families, our parents made stupid and selfish choices, we have both learned hard lessons of ignorance, stupidity, and selfishness from our parents in different ways, we are smart enough to understand that, address it, and work to make sure those choices are not repeated and that the lessons learned are handed down to our kids in turn so that they dont make them again.


----------



## Blade96 (Jun 1, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> see making bad choices does not mean having to live a bad life or be a bad person.
> I am sure that your cousin, and aunt are doing the best they can with the choices they made, and the choices their parents made for them. My hope is that lessons are learned from mistakes and the future generations do not repeat the mistakes of the parents.


For sure 

They really are wonderful people, in fact they are my fave aunt and cousin, and i love em to pieces  We all love them.   Actually they live a very good life now. I am happy they turned out ok. 



			
				luckyboxer said:
			
		

> Hell my wife and I both are products of divorced families, our parents made stupid and selfish choices, we have both learned hard lessons of ignorance, stupidity, and selfishness from our parents in different ways, we are smart enough to understand that, address it, and work to make sure those choices are not repeated and that the lessons learned are handed down to our kids in turn so that they dont make them again.



yep. for sure!  My cousins have learned very well from their mum's mistakes. They do NOT want to be teenage moms! and one of em is going to be 20 in october, the other is going to be 22. and neither are parents.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 2, 2011)

If Arnold would just come out and say he messed up and shouldn't of swept it all under the rug...Then...he might actually be able to save his carrer and possibly his family.  The People will forgive those who ask to be forgiven and show that they deserve it.


----------



## LuckyKBoxer (Jun 2, 2011)

Sensei Payne said:


> If Arnold would just come out and say he messed up and shouldn't of swept it all under the rug...Then...he might actually be able to save his carrer and possibly his family. The People will forgive those who ask to be forgiven and show that they deserve it.


 
that family is a friggin mess. Hopefully the kids dont turn out like the parents.
coming out now apparantly Maria knew about the kid while Arnold was in office and the Kennedy family patriach convinced her that bringing it out while Arnold was in office would damage the Kennedy name and that she should wait till he left office so that it would be more of a disgraced actor thing then a disgraced politician thing.... and she went with it...sad when a family is more concerned about politics then kids... but in the Kennedy family that should not be a big surprise.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jun 2, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> that family is a friggin mess. Hopefully the kids dont turn out like the parents.
> coming out now apparantly Maria knew about the kid while Arnold was in office and the Kennedy family patriach convinced her that bringing it out while Arnold was in office would damage the Kennedy name and that she should wait till he left office so that it would be more of a disgraced actor thing then a disgraced politician thing.... and she went with it...sad when a family is more concerned about politics then kids... but in the Kennedy family that should not be a big surprise.


I just knew one of you guys would figure out how to blame this on democrats.


----------



## Sensei Payne (Jun 3, 2011)

Its Horrible in whats going on...and really its none of the world business but that families...I am simply saying that forgiveness can only happen when there is absolute honesty, sensarity, and acceptance of the blame.

They were together for such a long time, you don't just turn off the feelings of love toward someone, because of a indiscression, no matter how big of a issue it is.

I really hope for this family all the healing in the world..but its going to come down to what Arnold himself does...and accepting responsibility for his actions is a good first step.


----------



## Balrog (Jun 3, 2011)

LuckyKBoxer said:


> I toss ignorant in with stupid. You can change ignorant, but the decisions made involving either is usually the same.. The fact remains if what you say is true there was still a choice made, and it was a bad choice.


 
Or as Ron White says.....you can't fix stupid.


----------

