# Is Taekwondo turning into "the pushing art"?



## skribs (Jun 7, 2019)

I've had a few discussions on the Taekwondo subreddit regarding pushing in Taekwondo sparring.  Now, first off, I'd like to thank Martial Talk.  I know I butt heads with some people here, but this place is far less toxic than that forum.  But I digress...

There's been a few discussions regarding the use of pushing in sparring.  My understanding of pushing as the rules have changed since I started:

When I started, there was no pushing allowed at all
A few years ago, it was explained you could move with your feet, but not use a shoving motion with your arms (i.e. you can block their chest and then move)
Now, it seems the rules are you can shove your opponent, so long as you make a kicking motion immediately after
This topic is coming up a lot on Reddit, specifically in regard to a female world championship fight, where the winner would basically sumo-push her opponent out of the ring, and give a half-hearted kick on the way out to give her opponent a penalty for being kicked out of bounds.

Even if you take that gamer strategy away, the simplest way to compete in the new rules is to shove someone and kick.  While they're recovering from the shove, they're an easier target, and it's a lot easier to follow up on an arm push than a leg push.

In our sticky on WTF sparring, it discusses how sparring evolved into a rule-set built on high-difficulty techniques being rewarded.  Punches are easy to land and don't score.  Kicks to the head and spinny kicks are more difficult and score more.  But shove-and-kick is a simple tactic, which is rewarded with the same score as using proper footwork to set up your kicks.

Sorry if this comes across as a rant, but it seems that the sport side of the art is quickly devolving from a technical chess game of kicks and counters, to who has the stronger shove.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've had a few discussions on the Taekwondo subreddit regarding pushing in Taekwondo sparring.



First off, I'd recommend not calling it's taekwondo sparring. Because it's not. What you're talking about is Olympic sparring under WT rules. Olympic. Not taekwondo.



> Now, first off, I'd like to thank Martial Talk.  I know I butt heads with some people here, but this place is far less toxic than that forum.  But I digress...



We try.



> There's been a few discussions regarding the use of pushing in sparring.  My understanding of pushing as the rules have changed since I started:
> 
> When I started, there was no pushing allowed at all
> A few years ago, it was explained you could move with your feet, but not use a shoving motion with your arms (i.e. you can block their chest and then move)
> ...



Basically, my opinion on this is the same as any discussion of Olympic sparring. It sucks. It's a stupid ruleset. It should be completely overhauled or totally abandoned in favor of a ruleset that actually uses at least the majority of what the Art of TKD teaches. You want to shove? Go ahead. And when you do, I'll throw you.
Screw the WT. Spar using TKD.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> First off, I'd recommend not calling it's taekwondo sparring. Because it's not. What you're talking about is Olympic sparring under WT rules. Olympic. Not taekwondo.



It's the sparring style most commonly linked to Taekwondo by non-Taekwondo martial artists, and its the sparring style built around the most prestigious sport.  I agree that this isn't the only Taekwondo sparring style, but since we're talking about perceptions and stereotypes of the art, I felt it was appropriate.



> We try.



Wait...you try to butt heads with me, or you try not to be toxic?



> Basically, my opinion on this is the same as any discussion of Olympic sparring. It sucks. It's a stupid ruleset. It should be completely overhauled or totally abandoned in favor of a ruleset that actually uses at least the majority of what the Art of TKD teaches. You want to shove? Go ahead. And when you do, I'll throw you.
> Screw the WT. Spar using TKD.



Do you think it's possible to design a point game around kicks, which will not end up in a shoving match or in endless chest-bump clinches?

I do agree I wish we were allowed to use more of our toolkit.


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's the sparring style most commonly linked to Taekwondo by non-Taekwondo martial artists, and its the sparring style built around the most prestigious sport.  I agree that this isn't the only Taekwondo sparring style, but since we're talking about perceptions and stereotypes of the art, I felt it was appropriate.



I rarely (if ever) think intentional inaccuracy is appropriate. It takes zero effort to use the more accurate term. And can educate those who don't know any better than to use the inaccurate term.



> Wait...you try to butt heads with me, or you try not to be toxic?



I try not to be toxic. And we (meaning the staff) do what we can to control toxic posting.



> Do you think it's possible to design a point game around kicks, which will not end up in a shoving match or in endless chest-bump clinches?



I don't know if it's possible, I don't _*care*_ if it's possible, and I wouldn't even try. Because that wouldn't be taekwondo sparring. Part of the problem with the idiotic WT ruleset is it's total and complete obsession with kicking. TKD is not kicking. That's why it's not called taedo. It is kicking and punching and kneeing and elbowing and throwing and sweeping and locking and...

Again, screw the WT. Spar with TKD.


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## CB Jones (Jun 7, 2019)

That's why we dont compete in WT....hate the rule set....we much prefer the all strikes to head or body earn 1 point system regardless of the difficulty of the technique.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 7, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I don't know if it's possible, I don't _*care*_ if it's possible, and I wouldn't even try. Because that wouldn't be taekwondo sparring. Part of the problem with the idiotic WT ruleset is it's total and complete obsession with kicking. TKD is not kicking. That's why it's not called taedo. *It is kicking and punching and kneeing and elbowing and throwing and sweeping and locking and...*
> 
> Again, screw the WT. Spar with TKD.



Now there you go making me want to go find a TKD school that trains and spars like this! My primary exposure to TKD was from a school that was entirely focused on the WT rule set and it completely turned me off to the art. What you describe here sounds great!


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## Mitlov (Jun 7, 2019)

I've watched the controversial Walkden bout that she won by having her opponent DQed by pushing her out despite Walkden being down about ten points. I don't have a problem with forcing someone out being a valid offensive technique--we had that in fencing, and I think it's also part of Sanda kickboxing--but it should result in a point to the pusher, not a penalty to the pushee. That will prevent it from being an escape valve for someone who is losing, which is why the Walkden victory was frustrating to me.

I disagree with the assertion that WT sparring is fundamentally broken. Even if some don't enjoy it themselves, it's a popular sport for a reason. As a great recent example, here's Aaron Cook at that same World Championships, with an exciting and dynamic (if not close) fight:


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> First off, I'd recommend not calling it's taekwondo sparring. Because it's not. What you're talking about is Olympic sparring under WT rules. Olympic. Not taekwondo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you ever think lifetime boxers go around dissing boxing because all they do is punch? Of course not. World Tae Kwon Do sparring is the counter to boxing, by design. It was assembled by leadership from the primary TKD organizations and remaining Kwan's so yea, it is TKD. There are plenty of TKD sparring forums that use a different ruleset. 
The introduction of the push is not new. More of a re-introduction. That is an original tactic that became banned for a time. It is always a chess match and the best fighters learn how to adapt.


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I rarely (if ever) think intentional inaccuracy is appropriate. It takes zero effort to use the more accurate term. And can educate those who don't know any better than to use the inaccurate term.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmm, what it the first word? Tae? Yes, it is a "kicking, punching, way of life". You are trying to mix TKD sport and TKD art. Something I have given up on as it is simply a fools errand.
Last numbers I heard were over 200 countries, 60 plus million students, and 8 million poom-dan students. So love or hate what WT/Kukkiwon have done, they have elevated TKD as a whole far ahead other styles, at least as far as participation. The only MA that can say they are an Olympic sport is Judo. That swings a very big hammer by any standard.


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2019)

MetalBoar said:


> Now there you go making me want to go find a TKD school that trains and spars like this! My primary exposure to TKD was from a school that was entirely focused on the WT rule set and it completely turned me off to the art. What you describe here sounds great!


One of the greatest things about most TKD schools is they DO teach everything @Dirty Dog mentioned AND at the same time you can have the opportunity to learn Kukkiwon forms and WT sparring and compete at the highest level. That is a very good deal in my book. 
That said, our GM laments the schools that have devolved into purely sport schools, where a white belt never has a chance to learn that there is much more to the style. They are a real problem for the future integrity of TKD.
If you have only competed in tippy-tappy points tournaments, I highly recommend trying the accrual system. Until you have competed against someone who can kick you in the head twice before the average competitor punches you, you just can't understand.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 9, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> One of the greatest things about most TKD schools is they DO teach everything @Dirty Dog mentioned AND at the same time you can have the opportunity to learn Kukkiwon forms and WT sparring and compete at the highest level. That is a very good deal in my book.
> That said, our GM laments the schools that have devolved into purely sport schools, where a white belt never has a chance to learn that there is much more to the style. They are a real problem for the future integrity of TKD.
> If you have only competed in tippy-tappy points tournaments, I highly recommend trying the accrual system. Until you have competed against someone who can kick you in the head twice before the average competitor punches you, you just can't understand.



I’m sure they are out there, but I’ve yet to set foot in a “sport” Taekwondo school that only teaches WT rules sparring and nothing else. Competitors are a very small percentage of Taekwondo students. 

Also, from what I’ve seen, lower level competitors don’t use the same “skills” as world class players. It’s unfortunate, IMO, that the rules now favor what I consider to be negative tactics. Competitors use strategies that are proven to win. 

Everyone on the internet Kong’s for the 80s and 90s Olympic Taekwondo with more of a back leg game with stepping. The bad side of that was watching two players stare at each other and bounce for two minutes of a three minute round. I think the best rule set for Olympic Taekwondo is somewhere between the new and the old. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2019)

It continues to evolve. I believe most of this is intentional to prevent complete predictability. Form the competitor and spectators perspective. I love watching boxing but this has been one of its longtime knocks.


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## dvcochran (Jun 9, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've had a few discussions on the Taekwondo subreddit regarding pushing in Taekwondo sparring.  Now, first off, I'd like to thank Martial Talk.  I know I butt heads with some people here, but this place is far less toxic than that forum.  But I digress...
> 
> There's been a few discussions regarding the use of pushing in sparring.  My understanding of pushing as the rules have changed since I started:
> 
> ...



It appeared to be some very bad or biased judging to me. I admit I am not 100% up to date on WT rules but she had to be using a very grey area to her advantage. Kudos to her if the judging was clean. If so, that was a good job of knowing how to use the rules to your advantage. Me and my trainer would watch all the film we could on judges of upcoming matches to see if we could find any tendencies. The bigger the tournaments the better the job of going over rules pre-tourney.
If you watch the clip below you see warnings for much more subtle pushing. I miss the clinch more.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 9, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've had a few discussions on the Taekwondo subreddit regarding pushing in Taekwondo sparring.  Now, first off, I'd like to thank Martial Talk.  I know I butt heads with some people here, but this place is far less toxic than that forum.  But I digress...
> 
> There's been a few discussions regarding the use of pushing in sparring.  My understanding of pushing as the rules have changed since I started:
> 
> ...





dvcochran said:


> It appeared to be some very bad or biased judging to me. I admit I am not 100% up to date on WT rules but she had to be using a very grey area to her advantage. Kudos to her if the judging was clean. If so, that was a good job of knowing how to use the rules to your advantage. Me and my trainer would watch all the film we could on judges of upcoming matches to see if we could find any tendencies. The bigger the tournaments the better the job of going over rules pre-tourney.
> If you watch the clip below you see warnings for much more subtle pushing. I miss the clinch more.


Any chance one of you could add a video of the fight in question? I get the feeling a lot of fights would come up if i just searched "female tkd world championship", and i wouldnt know exactly what im looking for to find the right one, since i dont pay much attention to sport tkd


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## skribs (Jun 9, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance one of you could add a video of the fight in question? I get the feeling a lot of fights would come up if i just searched "female tkd world championship", and i wouldnt know exactly what im looking for to find the right one, since i dont pay much attention to sport tkd










dvcochran said:


> It continues to evolve. I believe most of this is intentional to prevent complete predictability. Form the competitor and spectators perspective. I love watching boxing but this has been one of its longtime knocks.



It's more to prevent the cheese that goes on in matches.  A lot of the recent rule changes have been made to prevent fighters from abusing the rather strict rulesets to their advantage.  For example:

It used to be that fighters would lean back so far when they kicked, that the only way to get back up was to roll.  This kept your head so far away from your opponent that they couldn't retaliate.  Rule was changed that if you fall while scoring a point, the point doesn't count.
It used to be that fighters would just get into the "clinch" (can't grab, so the "clinch" is basically pushing chestguards together), so now pushing is legal so players have a way out of the clinch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 10, 2019)

I'm outside the community, but you guys knew it was only a matter of time before I posted in this thread. 

I don't have a problem with pushing being part of the game, but the way it was used in that fight seems outside the spirit of the contest. If pushing like that is to be allowed, throwing should also be allowed (because you have to commit a lot of weight to push that hard, and could easily be thrown). Otherwise, there needs to be some allowance for judge's discretion on whether the push is being used specifically to put someone outside the ring or for setting up an attack. Most of hers were clearly trying to push her opponent out. As someone else already said, I think, changing the rules so it doesn't lead to a DQ is an important first step. Why should you be DQ'd for my actions?


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## dvcochran (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's more to prevent the cheese that goes on in matches.  A lot of the recent rule changes have been made to prevent fighters from abusing the rather strict rulesets to their advantage.  For example:
> 
> It used to be that fighters would lean back so far when they kicked, that the only way to get back up was to roll.  This kept your head so far away from your opponent that they couldn't retaliate.  Rule was changed that if you fall while scoring a point, the point doesn't count.
> It used to be that fighters would just get into the "clinch" (can't grab, so the "clinch" is basically pushing chestguards together), so now pushing is legal so players have a way out of the clinch.


I looks a lot like the rule says it is OK as long as it is a straight arm push. Possibly red ran out of gas?
I loved the clinch. Being shorter and able to kick high from very close range, I could use it to my advantage coming out of the clinch. I have at least two knockouts from front kicks to the chin coming out of the clinch. Ah, the good ole days.


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## dvcochran (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's more to prevent the cheese that goes on in matches.  A lot of the recent rule changes have been made to prevent fighters from abusing the rather strict rulesets to their advantage.  For example:
> 
> It used to be that fighters would lean back so far when they kicked, that the only way to get back up was to roll.  This kept your head so far away from your opponent that they couldn't retaliate.  Rule was changed that if you fall while scoring a point, the point doesn't count.
> It used to be that fighters would just get into the "clinch" (can't grab, so the "clinch" is basically pushing chestguards together), so now pushing is legal so players have a way out of the clinch.


In the clinch, arms had to be straight. The degree that you could fudge this rule was always a question. Coming out of the clinch you could grab the Hogu near the shoulder and pull you opponent and usually get away with it as long as you were still very close. The general perception was that the person with their arms on top had the advantage. Being shorter I had to figure out ways to negate the perceived advantage.
I never remember a "falling away" kick being a point. Strikes had to be controlled, ending in a return to neutral position (didn't matter how you go there, forward or back) or followed with a legal move. Must have changed after I quit competing.


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## dvcochran (Jun 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm outside the community, but you guys knew it was only a matter of time before I posted in this thread.
> 
> I don't have a problem with pushing being part of the game, but the way it was used in that fight seems outside the spirit of the contest. If pushing like that is to be allowed, throwing should also be allowed (because you have to commit a lot of weight to push that hard, and could easily be thrown). Otherwise, there needs to be some allowance for judge's discretion on whether the push is being used specifically to put someone outside the ring or for setting up an attack. Most of hers were clearly trying to push her opponent out. As someone else already said, I think, changing the rules so it doesn't lead to a DQ is an important first step. Why should you be DQ'd for my actions?


The only logical assumptions I can come to is either Red did not know she could, or how, to push back, red was totally out of gas, or it was very questionable judging.


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## skribs (Jun 10, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The only logical assumptions I can come to is either Red did not know she could, or how, to push back, red was totally out of gas, or it was very questionable judging.



What a lot of people were saying on the other forum is that Blue was following the letter of the rules, where Red and the audience were looking at the spirit of the rules.

The rules are that you're allowed to push as long as its followed by a kick.  So she's pushing all the way across the mat and giving a half-hearted kick at the end.  The kick doesn't score, but its enough to justify the push.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> It used to be that fighters would lean back so far when they kicked, that the only way to get back up was to roll.  This kept your head so far away from your opponent that they couldn't retaliate.  *Rule was changed that if you fall while scoring a point, the point doesn't count.*


They had to make a special rule for this??


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 10, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> They had to make a special rule for this??



Yes. Some players would intentionally fall to avoid a counter attack. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 10, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The only logical assumptions I can come to is either Red did not know she could, or how, to push back, red was totally out of gas, or it was very questionable judging.



My conclusion is that the Blue player had no answer to Red and so resorted to gaming the rules. My understanding is that Red had beaten Blue two or three times consecutively and was dominating the scoreboard in this match. 

The worst part to me was watching her celebrate as if it was some wonderful performance. 


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## skribs (Jun 10, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> They had to make a special rule for this??



As the sport evolves and more "cheese" is discovered, that cheese needs to be eliminated from the rules.  Another rule is "no monkey kicks", which are basically reverse hook kicks (i.e. an inward strike with the heel to the ribs).  These kicks don't have enough power to be very effective in a real situation, but are strong enough to activate the sensors on the chestguard and score a point.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> Yes. Some players would intentionally fall to avoid a counter attack.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sure, but it seems to me that voiding a point if the competitor falls down when he delivers the technique would be an automatic.  I am surprised they needed to create a rule specifically to govern that issue.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> As the sport evolves and more "cheese" is discovered, that cheese needs to be eliminated from the rules.  Another rule is "no monkey kicks", which are basically reverse hook kicks (i.e. an inward strike with the heel to the ribs).  These kicks don't have enough power to be very effective in a real situation, but are strong enough to activate the sensors on the chestguard and score a point.


The rules are what they are, but I would say that could be an effective kick, depending on the target.


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## skribs (Jun 10, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> The rules are what they are, but I would say that could be an effective kick, depending on the target.



And it wouldn't be very effective on the target it is scoring on.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> And it wouldn't be very effective on the target it is scoring on.


To the ribs?  Sure it could be.


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## skribs (Jun 10, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> To the ribs?  Sure it could be.



A punch would be faster and harder to counter, and you'd have better balance if they grab your arm than if they grabbed your leg.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 10, 2019)

skribs said:


> A punch would be faster and harder to counter, and you'd have better balance if they grab your arm than if they grabbed your leg.


That may or may not be true depending on circumstances.  But either way it does not change the fact that the inward heel kick to the ribs can be effective.

Whether or not a different technique or a different set of circumstances might be MORE effective does not diminish the fact that the technique in question is effective.


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## Mitlov (Jun 11, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, but it seems to me that voiding a point if the competitor falls down when he delivers the technique would be an automatic.  I am surprised they needed to create a rule specifically to govern that issue.



Rolling or falling kicks are a staple in Kyokushin. It's not surprising to me that TKD would need to clarify whether or not they're legal in the WT ruleset.


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> Rolling or falling kicks are a staple in Kyokushin. It's not surprising to me that TKD would need to clarify whether or not they're legal in the WT ruleset.



They were staple in American karate, too. I so loved rolling and falling kicks, used to smoke people with them all the time in competition....until they made me stop. They said because I lost eye contact with the target for a split second it was dangerous because of that. I countered with "then why are all manner of spin kicks allowed?"  Of course they had no answer to that.

I have found that the people who run competitions in the striking arts don't really care about anything other than making their own jobs easier and, of course, making a buck.

The cartwheel version of the falling kicks is still my favorite, and I can still land it with one hundred percent accuracy even as an old man. There is no other technique I can say that about. I throw it at shorter than jab distance and I can hit anyone with it any time I want. That's how damn easy it is to throw if you have it in your repertoire.

As for that video of the two girls competing, I felt embarrassed watching that. The instructor of the girl in blue has no place in the Arts in my opinion. That was awful. Even her grandparents should be embarrassed.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 11, 2019)

Buka said:


> They were staple in American karate, too. I so loved rolling and falling kicks, used to smoke people with them all the time in competition....until they made me stop. They said because I lost eye contact with the target for a split second it was dangerous because of that. I countered with "then why are all manner of spin kicks allowed?"  Of course they had no answer to that.
> 
> I have found that the people who run competitions in the striking arts don't really care about anything other than making their own jobs easier and, of course, making a buck.
> 
> ...


Any chance you've got a video of the falling cartwheel kick? I deal most of my damage in "shorter than jab" so would be cool to try learning it


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you've got a video of the falling cartwheel kick? I deal most of my damage in "shorter than jab" so would be cool to try learning it



I don't, no. But if you can come to Maui I can teach you that kick so you would be able to hit anyone with it just about any time you want. And it would only take a day, maybe two. Honest Injun. I'll even take you to dinner after you get the kick down.

The thing about that kick within that "shorter than jab range" range - if you aren't familiar with it you will never see it coming. Precisely because you are in that short range. Let's say you have your right foot back, left foot forward....

You throw a right hand. I don't care what kind of right hand, a cross, a reverse punch, whatever you like. But that right hand is the first part of that kick. And you throw that right hand like you mean it, not just stick your arm out, really throw it to hit the face.

The rest is just ice cream. And perhaps apologies.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 11, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> Rolling or falling kicks are a staple in Kyokushin. It's not surprising to me that TKD would need to clarify whether or not they're legal in the WT ruleset.


Ok, I would expect that a judge in a tournament ought to be able to tell the difference between something deliberate like these, and someone who simply falls down in the middle of throwing his kick, or immediately after contact because he looses his footing or his balance.  This is not rocket science.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 11, 2019)

Buka said:


> I don't, no. But if you can come to Maui I can teach you that kick so you would be able to hit anyone with it just about any time you want. And it would only take a day, maybe two. Honest Injun. I'll even take you to dinner after you get the kick down.
> 
> The thing about that kick within that "shorter than jab range" range - if you aren't familiar with it you will never see it coming. Precisely because you are in that short range. Let's say you have your right foot back, left foot forward....
> 
> ...


I should hopefully be making my way that way in exactly one year. Going to take you up on that


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I would expect that a judge in a tournament ought to be able to tell the difference between something deliberate like these, and someone who simply falls down in the middle of throwing his kick, or immediately after contact because he looses his footing or his balance.  This is not rocket science.



The problem with most judges at most tournaments, at least striking tournaments, is they are usually the people who weren't quite clever enough to get out of judging that day.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I should hopefully be making my way that way in exactly one year. Going to take you up on that


Times like this i wish there was a way to "save" a post on here so i wouldn't forget it.


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I should hopefully be making my way that way in exactly one year. Going to take you up on that



As Stephen, the mad Irishman from Braveheart said, 'Excellent!"


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## CB Jones (Jun 12, 2019)

Buka said:


> As Stephen, the mad Irishman from Braveheart said, 'Excellent!"



Hawaii is now Buka's island...


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## skribs (Jun 12, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok, I would expect that a judge in a tournament ought to be able to tell the difference between something deliberate like these, and someone who simply falls down in the middle of throwing his kick, or immediately after contact because he looses his footing or his balance.  This is not rocket science.



So you run into the issue of the letter of the rule, vs. the spirit of the rule.


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## dvcochran (Jun 12, 2019)

Buka said:


> The problem with most judges at most tournaments, at least striking tournaments, is they are usually the people who weren't quite clever enough to get out of judging that day.


Love it or hate it, that is one of the good things about Olympic TKD circuit tourney. Only WT certified judges are used. Of course, no one is perfect. That said, the falling analogy would surely never happen.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 13, 2019)

skribs said:


> So you run into the issue of the letter of the rule, vs. the spirit of the rule.


Yup, and it shows a shocking lack of common sense when a judge or other offical cannot make the right decision in that kind of situation.  Again, it ain’t rocket science.  Some of these things really ought to be obvious.


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