# Mitose



## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 7, 2002)

I have head the name James Mitose more times than i can count since i began my training in Kenpo, Heard stories about how he is/was arrested and put to trial for some reason, does anyone here have any more information about this, I would love to learn more. :asian:


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## donald (Feb 7, 2002)

Hello Sir,
What I remember from written accounts. Is that he was convicted for some type of sven gali type act. It was supposed to have taken place not to long after the "manson family" nightmare. One of his former "students" turned states evidence, and he(Mr.Mitose) was hung out to dry!!! Whether he was truly guilty, or not I could'nt say. His is an intriguing legacy to say the least.
By His Grace


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 7, 2002)

Try this BIOGRAPHY OF James M. Mitose


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## GouRonin (Feb 7, 2002)

Don't forget that the Tracy website is somewhat biased.

Mitose's claims became grander towards the end of his life. While there is no doubt that he possed some knowledge and has some historical content to him it is hard to distinguish what was fact and what is embellishment.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 7, 2002)

Part if the reason I asked was I had only heard that he was arrested and tried, No one had ever told me if in fact he was convicted, which i just found out yes he was convicted, or even what he was arrested for, and now i understand that he was arrested for extortion and murder, So now i have another question, Who was he convicted of murdering, was that person significant, I wish i had more overall detail as to the whole story, theres millions of bits and pieces, but i would take me years to get any true insight to this, Many I'm talking to now say that theres so many clouds around the scenario that i shouldt even bother trying to find this stuff out. Well I'm often too stubborn to just let something drop like that before im satisfied that i atleast have the jist of the story and enough information that i feel comfortable that i can at least make a partial judgement for my self as to what really happened.


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## Robbo (Feb 7, 2002)

This is the version I heard from Bruce Juchnik while attending one of his seminars.


http://www.mackido.com/Thought/Ethics_of_a_fight.html

this too,

http://kempo.4mg.com/articles/mitose.htm


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 7, 2002)

Try this artical published in the November 1992 issue of Black Belt Magazine 

Hope this helps
:asian:


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sanxiawuyi _
> *Try this artical published in the November 1992 issue of Black Belt Magazine
> 
> Hope this helps
> :asian: *




Best Info I found so far at least this give me the whole story of who he was convicted of murdering and some insight as to why it occured. Definitely an interesting story, at very least it give you some insight as to what a skilled person with little or no self control can do (talking about mitose's studesnt not mitose), Kind of sad that one of the greats in our art was F%&*#D Over by one of his students. Does anyone know anything about the student that supposedly sold him out. Who is he, where is that student now etc. Thanks for all your help

:asian:


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 7, 2002)

The students name at that time was Terry Lee. He later changed it too Nimr Hassan continues to teach at his dojo in Philadelphia,The Koga Ha Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo Association of Philadelphia 


James Mitos's son, Thomas B. Mitose, teaches and passes on his familys art of Kosho-ryu at his dojo,Mitose's Kosho-Ryu Karate Kenpo Academy", in Antioch, CA.

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes _
> *Kind of sad that one of the greats in our art was F%&*#D Over by one of his students.*



Oh come on. Mitose SENT that guy over there to collect money he was extorting from the guy. In the old country the stuff Mistose was pulling might have flown but in North America it swam like a concrete block.

Mitose was responsible for his own problems. He was well aware who he was sending to meet with the farmer and what he was going to do. Whatever his skill was he was a con man and a liar. He pretended to be a priest, he exaggerated his own lineage as time went on and he got caught. He was influential in the makeup of American Kenpo but was just a piece of the pie. He brought some elements to it but was not the vital link in the chain.

His claims over Chow are also suspect. Chow would have pounded the puss out of Mitose. And threatened to do so when Mitose tried to pull some strong arm stuff on him. I don't blame him for backing down. From what I hear Chow could %$#@ up a steel ball with a rubber mallet he was so tough.

Consider this however, a quote from Richard "Huk" Planas on the skill he saw of Mitose.

_"I personally don't know the extent of Mitose's training. All I can say is that back in the time when I was running the Pasadena studio there was a short period of time where Mitose came in almost daily. He would get on the mat and show us things that were not impressive to anyone of us. He once wanted to show me a 'secret move' and told me to throw a punch at him. When I did he immediately dropped down on his right knee and punched me in the top of the foot. Mr. Parker and the rest of us who were on the mat just looked at each other in disappointment."_

Let's stay real about this.


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *
> 
> Oh come on. Mitose SENT that guy over there to collect money he was extorting from the guy.
> ...




Gou,
I really respect your opinions, but like the other side of the Mitose coin, they are just your opinions. Aside from the Planas quote, how do you know for certain those allegations are true?

Isnt sort of odd that almost everyone in American Kenpo spread the same info as you just stated, and people from the other Kenpo camps tell the other story. Things that make you go Mmmm. Do you think the truth may lie somewhere in the middle?

As for the Chow thing, people have been arguing about this for years, but the fact remains he got a black belt from Mitose, was in his book, Chows brother says William studied with Mitose, etc, etc,. Chow must have thought he could learn something from Mitose. Those were tough times in Paloma settlement in Hawaii and if you taught martial arts, you had to back it up.

With respect,
Sanxiawuyi

:asian:


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## GouRonin (Feb 7, 2002)

Actually, my opinons and those of others are just as factual as any the Tracy's have put forward. I have spoken with a few people from both sides. 

What I find odd is that now Ed Parker is dead and people are suddenly screaming of lineage to Mitose when they didn't say jack when he was alive. Although it's like that with some people and Ed Parker too.

You are right. The truth lies in the middle I am sure. But I doubt it's as far to the side as the Tracy's would have anyone believe. In the end I wasn't there so I am going on the words of a few men I respect. I am sure that you are as well. However it just seems that the Tracy people are more vocal about their version.

Chow did train with Mitose and that is not in dispute. It was a tough time and I am sure that Mitose had some skills. But to say that Chow and Parker got it all through Mitose is a huge leap.


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## Sanxiawuyi (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Chow did train with Mitose and that is not in dispute. It was a tough time and I am sure that Mitose had some skills. But to say that Chow and Parker got it all through Mitose is a huge leap. *



Hey Gou,

I enjoy meeting you on these forums. Your post are rationally based, not emotionally, youre a fellow Canuck, and you dont get too nasty 

I never have said that Chow and Parker got it all through Mitose. Anyone who knows me, and yes I do practice Tracy Kenpo, knows I dont agree with the linage as laid out. There are many elements missing, but I have been searching. I think people who read the history page at my site know what I believe, and that road isnt direct back to Mitose. As you have said, Chow was an incredible martial artist, no dispute, and he did not learn all of that from Mitose. On the other hand, he didnt learn the rest from his father!

Kimo Ferreira has tracked down some interesting history on Kenpo as well.

Respectfully,
Sanxiawuyi


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## GouRonin (Feb 7, 2002)

Of course I am rational. I'm Canadian! I'll be the first to say that Chow was a little weird too. The guy used to get things in dreams for his martial arts etc he claimed.

But that was then and this is now. I doubt we'll ever know the real truth. At the moment I am still trying to track down who taught Ed Parker his judo. It's not easy. No one knows.

As funny as it seems I really am sorta Rabid and vicious but Jaybacca keeps me on some semblence of a leash.

Before I used to be really mean...


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## Kirk (Feb 8, 2002)

> Before I used to be really mean...




Yeah, I heard that too


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## vincefuess (Feb 10, 2002)

BOTTOM LINE NATE:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is likely a duck.

Mitose was involved in nasty stuff- extortion, blackmail, etc.- the evidence is too strong to deny.  Just like there are people who don't think Bill Clinton had extramarital sex- those of us who live in the real world know he did.

Mitose is the same situation.  He was surrounded by controversy, and was convicted of only ONE of the crimes he commited.  He sent a "disciple" to strongarm some money out of a strawberry farmer he had suckered into a deal and the guy killed the farmer.  THIS IS FACT AND PUBLIC DOMAIN INFORMATION AVAILABLE THROUGH GOVERNMENT RECORDS.

Chow never had this crap surounding him, nor did SGM Parker.  Was it just bad luck that 4 out of 5 people considered Mitose a cultist crook?  Was it just bad luck you were speeding in your new Neon?

Look at the facts, and let judgement be your guide.  Only people who need defense defend their position to a fault.

In MY own personal opinion, and it is a widely shared opinion, Mitose was a cultist criminal who preyed upon his fellow man like a vampire.  Nobody in the martial arts community support him except those who claim lineage to him, and that claimed lineage is dubious you have to admit.  It's funny nobody talks this way about Funakoshi, Oyama, Parker, etc....

There is a smell around Mitose, and it is there for a reason.

Vince


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 11, 2002)

I am just looking for information, No i relaize i opened a huge "can'o'worms" there as so many sides and so many variations of the story ive heard so far that i have no idea what to believe, one things for certain, he was denitiely crazy, wehter he was crazy homocidal crazy i dont know but there are too many things, Either people say that he was super nice and only took blame for his student because of tradition, and that in the whole he was really a great guy that preached peace over violence. then there people that say hes an extorting murdering, lying, etc etc. type person. Odds are hes somewhere in the middle. I wasnt even alive when all of these things happened so i cannot pass any judgements to either side. one things for cure, A whole lotta crap did go on.
:asian:


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## vincefuess (Feb 11, 2002)

Man, how many times can a dead horse be kicked? I have gone the scales to the extremes in both directions regarding "the Mitose thing".  I have researched this from one end to the other (over a period of years), and the conclusion I draw is that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck.  There is OVERWHELMING amounts of information that paint Mitose a "shady character"- there is very little to the contrary, other than that offered by those "claiming the legacy", who have their own agendas and may not be too keenly interested in the truth if it doesn't suit their purpose.

I posted somewhere in this forum (maybe in this thread) asking someone to prove that the "Mitose Clan Kosho Ryu" even existed in Japan at all.  I have seen nothing to convince that it did.  Most every other traditional asian art can define its roots clearly, and are still represented in their homeland.  Kosho Ryu is not.  Even the mysterious NINJAS have more documentation of their existence and lineage. Did the Kosho Ryu just disappear from Japan in a puff of smoke?

I would be happy to be proven wrong in this assumption of mine, I really would.  Nobody has succeeded so far, though.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 11, 2002)

Hey yo man... When did i argue with you, Like you said youve had years to research I've been at it a week, And yes I've gotten to the point where im seeing something thats walking like a duck and sounds like a duck, but its too far off in the distance for me to be sure if its a duck, My HS years were strange, maybe im hallucinating the duck (joke) I dont disagree with anything youve said. Never hurts to get all the information you can.
:shrug:


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## vincefuess (Feb 11, 2002)

Dang Nate!  Did ya think I was chapped or something??  LOL- I didn't mean to come off that way at all.  ASK QUESTIONS- ALWAYS ASK QUESTIONS!

By "kicking a dead horse" I meant that when the subject of Mitose comes up, you always here the same tired OPINIONS- and that is all they are is opinions. Nobody seems to be able to offer up any substantiated fact.  That's why I raise the question about the existence/history/etc. of the Kosho Ryu in Japan- to go PAST Mitose (cuz you won't find squat in the way of answers as relates directly to him) and try to reach some truth by coming up the "historical rear" so to speak.

You have never done anything to chap my hinder.  Rubbing people the wrong way is what "I" do best!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## GouRonin (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *the conclusion I draw is that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it is a duck.*



...and them's good eatin'! So shoot the d@mn thing!


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## GouRonin (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes _
> *I am just looking for information, No i relaize i opened a huge "can'o'worms"*



A better question to ask you Nate is this...does it matter right now? Are you enjoying what you are doing? That is what matters.


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## GouRonin (Feb 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *Rubbing people the wrong way is what "I" do best!!*



Oh Gross, maybe you and Kirk can get the room together. I'm outa here. Ah ha ha ha!
:rofl:


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## Kirk (Feb 11, 2002)

ROFL!  You sick farfegnugen!  




> I am just looking for information, No i relaize i opened a huge "can'o'worms



Lemme guess Gou .. "them's good eatin" ???


:rofl:      :boing2:


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## GouRonin (Feb 11, 2002)

You'd be surprised at what you can eat.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 11, 2002)

You guys act younger than me. ROTFLMAO :rofl:


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## GouRonin (Feb 12, 2002)

They can make me get older but they can't make me grow up.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 12, 2002)

It says your a mental health therapist in your profile, what exactly do you specialize in, Psychiatrymm psychology, Pycho-therapy, or just being a plain old psycho.


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## GouRonin (Feb 12, 2002)

Mental Health Specialist.

I work with people with long term mental illnesses of a severe nature such as schizophrenia. I'm on the crisis management team. It's my job to work with people and keep them out of the institutional settings and in the community. That involves everything from financial supports, to issues with psychotropic medications and everything in-between.

Before that I worked in the correctional system.

Between the two, I think I have a grasp on abnormal behavior.
:asian:


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 12, 2002)

So did you leanr martial arts based on interest or get attacked by one too many convicts/crazy people, and then decided you need to learn how to correct yourself.


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## GouRonin (Feb 12, 2002)

I started learning martial arts before I was in either field. I started in boxing and it sorta evolved from there.

While I do sometimes get involved in incidents, I do not work *IN* the institutional setting. My job is to try and avoid having my clients go there or try and get them out earlier.

I do get attacked once in a while but often that is minimized by the fact that I try to keep aware of my surroundings and avoid being in dangerous situations.

More often than not it is my clients who are a danger more to themselves than to others.

Trying to explain to a client for example why it's a bad thing to set himself on fire after splashing himself with gasoline is not unusual. But not rare. Since I do not work under a legal authority like police and fire nor do I work under legal auspices such as those provided by mental health institution a lot of my work involves _convincing_ my clients.

It's not boring.


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## Rob_Broad (Feb 12, 2002)

It seems amusing that Al Tracy is now linking his lineage to someone like Mitose.  Al has been in some shady deals as well.  But what I find most amusing is that Al Tracy's supposed lineage is to someone that cannot refute the claim, and that Al's own brother thinks that it is full of crap.


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 12, 2002)

Dont take this the wrong way rob, but every chance you get you seem to take a shot at the tracys bottom line is that when it comes to years of experience there arent many people out there that can claim to have that amount of time invested in learning the arts as they can, there as legitimate of martial artists as we both are.


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## Rob_Broad (Feb 12, 2002)

No offense taken Nate, but having been in the martial arts for almost 21 yrs, I have seen the changes in peoples ways of doing things.  Jim and Al were inovators in the way they mass marketed their their tapes.  Al is a business genius, I have the complete business manual package.  But I find his morals to be a little lacking.  He says straight out in the business manulas, "Never date a student", that is great advice but where do you think he met Pat.  I spent the first dozen or so yrs in the Tracy system, and it has always seemed to be about the money.  That is fine that is what he is in it for, all the power to him.  I admit he has more yrs in than I do, has attained higher rank that I ever will, that to is fine.  There wa a lot of animosity between Ed Parker and Al right up SGM Parker's death, then Al pretended like they were the best of friends.

Ask those in the higher ranks of American Kenpo what the real truth is about Parker and Tracy.  I respect your opinion, as long as you respect mine.  That doesn't mean we have to like the opinion of the other guy.  I have done the Tracy system, and the Parker system, I personally prefer the Parker method.  Others prefer the Tracy idea of more is better, that is fine.  And as I said in another thread a few months ago Tacy Kenpo is better than no kenpo at all.


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## Dave Simmons (Feb 27, 2002)

Hi Rob,

Still hurt over your problems in the business end of Kenpo? Sure Al and Parker feuded over Kenpo for years but they were not enemies.

You stated," talk to American Kenpo Seniors." Well I know a few and the answer is not simple. The old Seniors have a better handle on this than the newer generations. But when it comes right down to it. It's just doesn't matter. We are Kenpo practitioners with the same "roots". 


Peace,

Dave Simmons
Twin Dragon Karate


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 27, 2002)

How the hell did you get in here? (just kidding)

I think that "The Truth" which is posted all over the Tracy site speaks for itself. I haven't seen an Ed Parker related web site that peers up Mr. Tracy's behind with a telescope, and airs all of his dirty laundry. Why is that?

:rtfm: 

Billy Lear


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## Dave Simmons (Feb 27, 2002)

What laundry? Does it  really bother you that much? If so I am sorry that I upset you.

As far as American Kenpo website not peering up Al's behind that' just plain gross!

Dave Simmons


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## Klondike93 (Feb 27, 2002)

Why did they feud? What caused such a problem between Parker and the Tracy's? Maybe someone could hit just the "meat" of the problem.

:asian:


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 27, 2002)

Peering up Mr. Tracy's butt would definatley be wrong!!!

(See... we can agree on something.)

:barf: 

Billy Lear


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2002)

Can someone identify for me the "main" Ed Parker's Kenpo and Tracy Kenpo web sites that are being discussed here?


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## Nate_Hoopes (Feb 27, 2002)

I have no idea about the parker, site, the tracy site is http://www.tracyskarate.com Good luck with the searching for information, it is there its just hard as hell to find.


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## WilliamTLear (Feb 27, 2002)

www.edparkersikka.com

:idunno: 

Tell me if you find any lengthy articles aimed against Mr. Tracy here.

Billy Lear


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## Kirk (Feb 27, 2002)

> _posted by Rob Broad:_
> I have done the Tracy system, and the Parker system, I personally prefer the Parker method. Others prefer the Tracy idea of more is better, that is fine. And as I said in another thread a few months ago Tracy Kenpo is better than no kenpo at all.




Just out of curiosity, are there any of you out there that have
done the reverse of Rob?  Started in the Parker system, achieved
a high rank, and then went over to the Tracy system?


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 27, 2002)

Rob, I'm sure there have been some "Parker to Tracy" changes but far less than the reverse.  There could be a number of reasons for this, the main reason would be to move and find no Parker studios, the other could be a dissatisfied student  with an instructor or many more.

The reason there are so many Tracy to Parker change overs is simply the fact that when the Individuals examine the material from both systems , it becomes clear where the material started and by whom.  Also there is far more depth of knowledge in the Parker Studios.  Keep in mind however, this is greatly dependent upon the Incividual instructor that one gets.  There are plenty of Parker Instructors out there that don't have a lot of the available material at their grasp due to weak instruction lineage.

There are also a number of "specialists" out there that are good at one thing or another and do not really teach the complete system.  For example ...   some instructors are good and enjoy sparring so they do a lot of that in their studios and the rest of the art takes a back seat.  On the other hand... there are those instructors that "take off" on the "self defense" portiion of our art ane yet others that specialize in the forms and sets.

So as you can see there are a great number of variables to the Art of Kenpo.  Don't forget however who founded it and continued to develop and "upgrade" it until his death....... Ed Parker!

:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Nate_Hoopes _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Mitose was not messed over by a student. Long before he was arrested tried and convicted of that last murder, he had a long history and arrest record of criminal extortion and rape. He had been arrested for murder before but manage to be released because witnesses recanted. He was a con man, and according to Parker showed no significant skill in the martial arts what so ever. he even attempted to envolve Parker in a con scheme when he came to the mainand pretending as usual to be a priest.


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## jazkiljok (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> Mitose was not messed over by a student. Long before he was arrested tried and convicted of that last murder, he had a long history and arrest record of criminal extortion and rape. He had been arrested for murder before but manage to be released because witnesses recanted. He was a con man, and according to Parker showed no significant skill in the martial arts what so ever. he even attempted to envolve Parker in a con scheme when he came to the mainand pretending as usual to be a priest. *



And for the gullible who think Mitose was the "victim" of the hapless killer Terry Lee..

Mitose was convicted by a jury. obviously he didn't plead guilty, did he?- so his weak little ploy of suggesting that he was "ultimately" responsible as the  teacher IS JUST IRRELEVANT. The jury didn't send him away because of this dumb attempt to gain sympathy from the them back-firing.

witness testimony from his victims, his criminal track record and his own admissions to pass criminality led him to the slammer. Our justice system isn't fail-proof but it works fairly well the majority of the time and worked just fine in this case.

the "assassin" Terry Lee was a clumsy killer that didn't show much martial art skill at that time- his  good behavior in prison and clean living since doing his time, point to a naive and easily manipulated man led astray by a dangerous con artist. 

as to Mitose's peaceful ways and 1500 year old system- here's an excerpt from an interview from some one who knew him personally. Adriano Emperado.


CN: Mitose was a controversial figure who spent the last years of his life in prison. Can you tell us something about the Mitose you knew in Hawaii?

EMPERADO: When Mitose taught Kenpo Jujitsu he always emphasized his religious philosophy. He dressed as a minister, carried rosary beads, and chanted like a Buddhist. He always stressed that you were never to use kenpo, even for self defense. His workout was that of traditional Japanese karate. We did makiwara training, some jujitsu takedowns and throws, and worked on developing the one punch kill. We also had one kata; the Naihanchi kata. 

CN: What did Mitose call his art and who did he learn it from?

EMPERADO: Mitose called his art Kenpo Jujitsu. He told us that he had learned it from Choki Motobu. I never heard the term "Kosho Ryu Kenpo" until he went to prison and some other instructors visited him and got master certificates in Kosho Ryu. I also never heard from him the story about the Kosho family temple. 

CN: So Mitose was a highly peaceful and spiritual man?

EMPERADO: Not really. You see in 1953 Professor Mitose paid a unannounced visit to my Palama Settlement school. He brought Dr. Arthur Keave and Masaichi Oshiro with him. He asked if they could demonstrate some techniques to my students. So I said ok, and Oshiro proceeded to demonstrate the Naihanchi kata. I then consented to demonstrate some of our Kajukenbo techniques. When all was done Mitose told me that me that I should call my system Kenpo Jujitsu since he considered it to be rooted in his system. I told him that I couldn't because there were 5 creators who contributed their arts to the system. He then became enraged and threatened to come back the next day with a samurai sword and kill me. Me and some of my students waited for his return, but he never showed. The next thing I heard he had gone to California. Years later I heard that he was in prison for having a student kill an old man. 

CN: So the Kosho Ryu we see today in magazines is not the Kenpo Jujitsu you remember from Hawaii?

EMPERADO: Like I said I had never heard of Kosho Ryu Kenpo. Mitose called it Kenpo Jujitsu and some of the Japanese said that the traditional name should be Shorinji Kempo. The instructors who got the master certificates while visiting Mitose in prison were all from different systems, and I'm sure that he didn't teach them kenpo in prison. In fact Thomas Barro Mitose was a Kajukenbo black belt under my student, Joe Halbuna. 

full interview at: 
http://www.interactivesmack.com/kajukenbo/sijointerview.html


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## Doc (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Why is it when I say these things everybody gets mad at me. I said it years ago. Mitose was a con man and he thought martial arts was a good cover.


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## Rainman (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> *
> 
> Why is it when I say these things everybody gets mad at me. I said it years ago. Mitose was a con man and he thought martial arts was a good cover. *



Quit thinking so much-they will attack you-  your words to me-  


:asian:


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## Doc (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Duly noted


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 19, 2002)

I said it as well.......... but what do we know..........:idunno:


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## jazkiljok (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *I said it as well.......... but what do we know..........:idunno: *



what you and Doc know is more then certain folk want to hear!

so keep on telling 'em!

:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jazkiljok _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Quite true.  The more information out there the harder it is for the BS to be taken seriously.


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## Sigung86 (Aug 20, 2002)

Rob,

I'm probably putting my wee-wee in the EPAK whacker here, but here it goes.  I don't really know what kind of problem you had with Al Tracy.  I don't think it really matters to any of us, but I kind of get tired of hearing how crappy my art is.  An art that I have been in since 1971, an art that I have used in the defense of my life, successfully obviously, on a number of occasions.  An art that I have passed on to a number of SpecOps people, who have also used it in their pursuits, again successfully.

I'm not all that loyal to Tracy's, in the greater scheme of things.  You can feel free to ask Dennis Conatser, or perhaps the good Doctor (having been one of his more vocal defenders in other milieu).  I am working my way through various elements of EPAK now.  Probably would do more if there were an EPAK instructor, that I would work with, who was closer to me than the inimitable Golden Dragon.

I don't know if you really mean to be insulting.  I hope that you are not, intentionally, however, it does get a little old.

EPAK folk often wonder why more Tracy Folk don't come over.  Yet, on the part of many, the Tracy folk feel like all we get is a ration of superiority and sniffing of the nose.  I won't speak for anyone else after saying that, but I wouldn't really be interested in being in a group of people who have that point of view.

Insofar as shady deals.  Those do not apply to all Tracy practicioners, and I think I feel like you apply the whole misfortune that you had to me personally... Perhaps you don't feel that way, but it comes across to me that way.

Parker and Tracy both have pulled questionable acts in their times.  It was the part of getting the commercial message out to all the paying students possible.  That's business.

Hope you understand that I simply had to say something, or just get pissed enough about all the interminible Tracy vs Parker crap,  that has been going on for 40+ years, and simply quit coming to this forum.

I now stand ready for the usual suspects to beat on me.

Thanks,

Dan Farmer


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## Rob_Broad (Aug 20, 2002)

My comment was not directed at any group or style.  I simply stated "*Quite true. The more information out there the harder it is for the BS to be taken seriously.* "  The quite true was agreeing that what Goldendragon and Doc know is about the true history of kenpo is more than many out there and more than some want to hear.

The rest of my post was talking about the martial arts in general.  I am very big on the sharing of knowledge, and I feel the more open we are about things in the martial arts the less chance there is of Con Artists takng advantage of people, and so called mystical martial artists spreading bad information on the public.

As for my opinion about Al Tracy, it is just that my opinion.  I personally prefer EPAK over the Tracy system, and if it were not for the politics of the martial arts I probably would not have found that I prefer EPAK.  The Tracys(back when it was Jim and Al) did many good things for the kenpo community, I personally think things changed when it became Al and Pat.  And as i have stated before Tracy's Kenpo is better than no kenpo at all, simply meaning if there was no EPAK school where I lived I would be at a Tracy's school beofre any other style.  I hope I have made thngs a little clearer.


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## vincefuess (Aug 22, 2002)

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is usually a duck.  In all my research over many years I have NEVER found one piece of evidence other than heresay that Mitose was who or what he claimed to be.

I am still waiting for irrefutable proof that there was even a Kosho Ryu Clan in Japan, and if there was- how was Mitose the grand master?  Every other clan still has descendants in representation of some form, with legitimate and proven documentation of fact.  Were they killed and all their records destroyed in Hiroshima?  Nagasaki?

I have found piles and piles of inormation that paint him of dubious character, to say the least.  Everything about the guy was smoke and mirrors, I don't care what some Folsom prison guard has to say.

The cream has a way of rising to the top, it is the natural order.  Mitose has never risen.  And believe me, I started from the OTHER side of the debate- I thought he was what he and some others purported him to have been.  The overwhelming evidence (and lack thereof) swayed my opinion, and my opinion is not easy to sway.  Oddly enough, all of this stemmed from initial research I did for my black belt thesis.  One question led to another, to another, to a hundred more.  It's funny I continue that same line of research to this day!  The thickness of the clouds seem to suggest the answer is right before us.


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## Chiduce (Aug 23, 2002)

To put it lightly, they all laid claim to being body demolition men of some sort at that particular time in modern day martial arts history. Mitose just got caught! Master David Johnson, my sifu's instructor states that "Mitose was a crazy man, whom was a out of control". Sifu Clinard (aka. Jimmy Bird)  is into his 50's and Master Johnson is in to his golden years in age!
Sincerely, In Humility;
Chiduce!


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## kelly keltner (Jul 8, 2004)

If Mitose had time to punch someone in the foot. What would have happened if he really meant to hurt somebody.


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## Seig (Jul 8, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> If Mitose had time to punch someone in the foot. What would have happened if he really meant to hurt somebody.


He had time because the individual stood there and let him.


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## monkey-a-go-go (Jul 8, 2004)

Fellows, First off great forum and discussion.  Mitose is one of the most intersting characters in martial arts history. Check out his business relationship with Chow. Also his Aikido connection which was another temple donation scam. Ever heard of Mutsu Mizuho? His pre -war kempo book? I am sure Doc has. If you ever get a chance compare it to Mitose 's book. Very interesting. Mizuho's lineage? Otsuka of Wadoryu KENPO JIUJITSU fame and Funakoshi's shotokan/shotokai. Mizuho along with Higaonna and others vistited hawaii and trained with existing karatekas. This stuff is finally getting around. Mitose's book is a good look at 1930's japanese karate along with some Okazaki jiujitsu.  Another interesting link is Mitose- Trias. In Trias' book My hand is my sword the Koshoryu crest is in the background of a photo. Trias claims Motobu lineage but his art doesn't look anything like Chosei Motobu's karate. Their naihanchi is different also. Lots of other little things like Mitose's middle knuckle strike - a Funakoshi favorite not Motobu. The Tracy's in a weird way have a better lineage than they might realize : )  Keep it coming!


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## KenpoDave (Jul 8, 2004)

WilliamTLear said:
			
		

> www.edparkersikka.com
> 
> :idunno:
> 
> ...



I'm curious, are there any lengthy articles aimed against Ed Parker at www.tracyskarate.com?


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## RCastillo (Jul 9, 2004)

All this matters, NOT! I'm here, and I'm heartily endoresed by the Goldendragon. Got problems with that? call Scottsdale,AZ :uhyeah: 

It's really very simple;I teach, you teach, we keep moving to perfect our art, and prepare to take on the trash in the street that attempts to hurt us, and our families. :asian: 

Respects to all!


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## kelly keltner (Jul 11, 2004)

jazkiljok said:
			
		

> And for the gullible who think Mitose was the "victim" of the hapless killer Terry Lee..
> 
> Mitose was convicted by a jury. obviously he didn't plead guilty, did he?- so his weak little ploy of suggesting that he was "ultimately" responsible as the teacher IS JUST IRRELEVANT. The jury didn't send him away because of this dumb attempt to gain sympathy from the them back-firing.
> 
> ...


Although you have a point there the interview you use with Emparado is suspect. Emparado makes statements about Paul Yamaguchi being  Gogen Yamaguchi's grandson which I don't believe is true. He also states that Yamaguchi was a blackbelt under Chow which is not true. There are a couple of other statements which are suspect. So I don't put a lot of faith in it. Not necessarilly Emparado's intent was to mislead but that maybe his memory did not serve him well.

kell


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## John Bishop (Jul 11, 2004)

kelly keltner said:
			
		

> Although you have a point there the interview you use with Emparado is suspect. Emparado makes statements about Paul Yamaguchi being Gogen Yamaguchi's grandson which I don't believe is true. He also states that Yamaguchi was a blackbelt under Chow which is not true. There are a couple of other statements which are suspect. So I don't put a lot of faith in it. Not necessarilly Emparado's intent was to mislead but that maybe his memory did not serve him well.
> 
> kell


If you check your kenpo history, you'll see that there was a lot of cross training going on in Hawaii in the 50s-60s-70s.  Both Paul Yamaguichi and Bobby Lowe received black belts from Mitose, and later from Chow.  I'm out of town now, but when I return next week, I can provide specifics on the dates of the promotions.  
And yes Yamaguichi is related to Gogen Yamaguichi.  He was referred to as a grand son, but the relationship may be more like a grand nephew.
Sijo Emperado started training with Chow in 1946, and also met Mitose at the same time period. He received instructor training from Mitose in 1950.
Since your questioning his statements, when was it that you knew Mitose and Chow?


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## kelly keltner (Jul 12, 2004)

lighten up big fella. I may have come on a little strong with those statements. I think I asked the question about Yamaguchi's relation to Gogen Yamaguchi when I first met Paul I thought I was told no, but I could be wrong. As for the cross training statement I concede You are possibly and /or problably right.  I would love to hear any history you could or would share with me.  As for Mitose and Chow. The answer is no I never met them.  I have however met people like Thomas Young, Paul Yamaguchi and his wife Helen ,and  B.F. Lau.  They all held Mr. Juchnik in high esteem. Two of the three of them did lengthy videotaped interwiews with him regarding their experiences with Mitose.  As did Rick Alemany, Eugene Sedeno and George Santana. 
Once again I know Mr. Juchnik would love to share with you.  By the way when did you first meet Mr. Mitose and Mr.Chow?  I figure you're at the big Kajukenbo event in Vegas. How's that going. Yes I do question Mr. Emparado's statements. Just like I question Mr. Juchniks statements. I live for who, what, when, where and why. Somehow I think you understand the fascination I have for different points of view on the same subject. 


Kell


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## Jeff Boler (Jul 13, 2004)

Getting into the discussion here a little late, but I would like to note a couple of things.  I have seen references to articles written by William Durbin, on the history of Mitose here in America.

Anything written by Mr. Durbin should be considered suspect, and nothing more than an attempt to bolster his own claims.  Mr. Durbin claims to be the only Kempo grandmaster that has been "recognized" by the three people claiming to have inherited the Mitose art.

Also, Mr Durbin himself has "adopted" Mr. Hassan (aka Terry Lee) into his system as a Shihan.  My understanding is that Mr. Lee did the same for Mr. Durbin.  "Scratch my back, and I will scratch yours".

Durbin's accounting of the crime in question is little more than fantasy.  According to him, the Yakuza had targeted Mitose, and then set him up.  It's his opinion that Mitose, as well as Lee, are both victims, and have been treated unjustly by the justice system.

It's a load of bunk.  Mitose was as guilty as the student in this case.  Unfortunately, there are no laws in the US stating that convicted murderers can't teach martial arts.  Therefore, Mr. Hassan continues to teach in the Philadelphia.

It's is also interesting to note that Mr. Hassan claims to teach Kosho Ryu Kempo and Koga Ha Kosho Ryu Ninjutsu, based on Koga Ryu, and inherited by Mitose..  But that's a completely different story.


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## kelly keltner (Jul 13, 2004)

I don't Know if Mr. Juchnik ever recognized him. I think he said he talked to him once. I'll check and get back to ya.

kelly


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## Jeff Boler (Jul 14, 2004)

Well, you have to look at what Durbin considers "recognition."  My understanding is that they all recognized Durbin as the Soke of his own art.  Now I don't know exactly what that means, other than he has some sort of document with Juchnik's signature.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jul 14, 2004)

Recognition = "Hey, aren't you that guy?"

D.


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## The Kai (Jul 15, 2004)

Just to clarify William Durbin has probably done more to confuse, muddle and confuse the kenpo lineage for his own self serving ends then perhaps anyone else!  Oddly enough most major branchs of the Kenpo arts can be found in durbin's style (according to him),  not bad for a guy located away from hotbeds of kenpo and a art that started outside the kenpo community.

However, if you guys get to serious on your Mitose vs. Chow/ or hanshi Juchnik debate pick up Mastering Kernpo to durbin-the history is so ludicris(sp?) it will make other debates pale in comparision!


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## Jeff Boler (Jul 15, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> Oddly enough most major branchs of the Kenpo arts can be found in durbin's style (according to him),  not bad for a guy located away from hotbeds of kenpo and a art that started outside the kenpo community.



Correct.  Durbin's one and only Kenpo (or Kempo) instructor is Rod Sacharnoski.  Do I need to go there?



> However, if you guys get to serious on your Mitose vs. Chow/ or hanshi Juchnik debate pick up Mastering Kernpo to durbin-the history is so ludicris(sp?) it will make other debates pale in comparision!



Durbin received this certificates of "recognition" from Juchnik, Thomas Mitose, and Hassan (aka Terry Lee), and then added their complete lineages to his own.  Fact of the matter is that he's never studied under any of them, nor has his instructor Rod Sacharnoski. He has intentionally warped the history to bolster his rediculous claims.  

My only question is why would you want to even claim to have these lineages is the first place?  Mitose was a criminal, Juchnick only received verbal instruction, Thomas Mitose actually learned Kajukenbo, and Hassan was with Mitose less than one year.  How much could any of these individuals actually know?


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## The Kai (Jul 15, 2004)

I can't speak for the rest, but all said and done hanshi Juchnik is a great martial artist.

Also, durbin is grasping for some respect, recognition so i have no doubt he would use anybody to bolster his fanatasies.  The kenpo community has a tendancy to be a bit fractured (in my opinion all Kenpo is cool, we are like crabs pulling each other down).  Durbin (and others like him) have a chance to get recognised in a effort to "unify".


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## Jeff Boler (Jul 15, 2004)

Oh don't get me wrong.  I have nothing against Juchnik.  I'm sure he's a fine martial artist.  I just don't see how he could have learned much from Mitose "verbally."  I'm sure he has something to offer his students.

My point is with Mitose's "questionable" history, why would someone like Durbin seek everyone out that claims lineage to the guy, and try to establish himself directly under the Mitose lineage?

Doesn't make a whole lot of sense.


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## The Kai (Jul 15, 2004)

Shady or not, Mitose has a name to put a handle on.  It is the handle not the character of the person.  If durbin could stand next to Jeff speakman nad get a picture taken I'd suspect that there would be some claim of recognition (and noy on speakman's part)


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## kelly keltner (Jul 16, 2004)

Durbin has a need to justify himself. My question is: Is he creating growth in the arts by doing any of this. are there more students studying? Does he have any student's?
I have seen many a master or head of organization who's orginization consists of two people. Yet they promote themselves as being a great leader. They even go around asking for recognition of their rank and style, of two people. I'll tell you a personal story. I knew a guy who left the first school I attended a green belt. Through the grapevine I heard he is now promoting himself as a 4th black in our system and trying to get hired as a self-defense instructor for one of the local law enforcement agencies. If he was creating some kind of growth and education in the arts I might be able to justify this, But this seems to be nothing but self-serving. Growth is the key to the survival of the arts. Struggle is the law of growth. If Durbin is trying to justify himself for selfish ends and not for growth then I have no use for him.

kelly


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## John Bishop (Jul 16, 2004)

In law enforcement amons't fraud investigators, there is a saying;  "follow the money trail".  
Basically, when people are putting forward conflicting stories of the same event, you have to look at each persons agenda.  In other words, what do they have to gain from pushing their version?  Are they selling videos, books, empire building, collecting association dues, obtaining promotions, going on the seminar curcuit, etc?  Or do they just have a strong interest in learning the martial arts and it's history?


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## Jeff Boler (Jul 16, 2004)

Durbin, at one time, had schools in multiple cities.  Due to the more esototeric training, and his association with Juko Kai, his student base is regulated to mainly his hombu dojo.  I understand he has around 30 students remaining.

Most of his senior students (myself included) left years ago, when Durbin started changing.  He has always claimed to be a Baptist Minister, but his stories about his art became more bizarre.  He claims to have received "Tenshin Sho".  (Divine Illumination)  In short, Jesus Christ told him to create his martial art.   I guess you could look at it as a "ministry."

Unfortunately,  God didn't inform him that misleading his students by falsifying ranks, histories, lineages, etc., is wrong.  He has continually changed history to bolster his claims, and the claims of his instructor, Rod Sacharnoski.

As for improving the martial arts as a whole, he has no interest in that.  According to him, he's teaching the ultimate martial arts system, founded by God.  Yet it has no set Kata, no competition (not even sparring), nothing resembling an "ancient martial art" or as he calls it, a Bugei.

Kiyojute Ryu is more of a cult then a martial art.  He has, however, been an instructor for the Kentucky State Police in the past.  If he has re-assumed that title, I would be greatly surprised.  It is Durbin who made the statement that 95% of all fights never get to the ground.  Ask any LEO, and he will tell you that this is nothing more than a load of bull.


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## The Kai (Jul 16, 2004)

While it is true durbin is bringing a few people int the arts is he also doing a ton of danmage to the sudents and the martial arts as a whole?


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## kelly keltner (Jul 16, 2004)

The Kai said:
			
		

> While it is true durbin is bringing a few people int the arts is he also doing a ton of danmage to the sudents and the martial arts as a whole?


Well said sir
kell


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## kelly keltner (Jul 18, 2004)

I believe you are correct Mr. bishop. Follow the money trail is a good thought process. All of the people and I do mean all of the people who come out with stories about Mitose have something to gain by putting forth their 2 cents worth. There would be long list of martial arts personalities. Most if not all of them use/used martial arts to make a living and they all contribute or contributed to the growth of the arts in America.

kelly


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