# Had a Seizure in Jiu Jitsu Class Today



## james0012

In Jiu Jitsu class, I sparred off against an 11 year old child who must have been about 90 pounds and 1 foot shorter and had only attended a few classes. I'm 34 years old and have been attending class for about 2 months now so I didn't want to try too hard. This attitude led to him (impressively) getting me in a full mount with his legs pinning my shoulders so his arms were free and mine weren't. He then strangled me. (sidenote: is this a legal move?) I tapped out with my feet as my arms were pinned and I couldn't verbally say it. The kid didn't notice me tapping and knocked me out. Fair play to the kid as he told me that he let go as soon as I went out. So I had a seizure on the mats and urinated as well. I'm completely fine, more amused than anything out of the instructor's concern for the mats. Wife was worried about brain hypoxia but I assured her that's only for long durations of unconsciousness. My neck is really tender with a red mark on it so I think I'll skip classes for a week or two until healed.

That would have been some way to go, huh? The missus keeps telling me this sport is too dangerous, but I didn't think I would be in danger from children! I didn't go to the hospital but I'm going to go in tomorrow just to make sure. Do I win the prize for the craziest day?


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## JR 137

Well, at least you have a good sense of humor 

Have you had seizures before?  You should get checked by a physician.


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## james0012

JR 137 said:


> Well, at least you have a good sense of humor
> 
> Have you had seizures before?  You should get checked by a physician.



With the situation as strange as this, you have to laugh.

And nope, I haven't had any before. You're probably right.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

james0012 said:


> With the situation as strange as this, you have to laugh.
> 
> And nope, I haven't had any before. You're probably right.


Every time you have a seizure, your seizure threshold lowers, so going to double up the advice of getting it checked out.
Id imagine that it shouldn't be a huge issue though if you're in your 30s and had your first one, but I'm also not a doctor so better to be safe than sorry.


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## james0012

kempodisciple said:


> Every time you have a seizure, your seizure threshold lowers, so going to double up the advice of getting it checked out.
> Id imagine that it shouldn't be a huge issue though if you're in your 30s and had your first one, but I'm also not a doctor so better to be safe than sorry.



I don't plan on getting any more seizures! Thanks for the advice, I'll go tomorrow most likely.


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## Headhunter

Couldn't you still have tapped with your hands I mean your arms were trapped but could you have still moved your hands? Also were you actually fitting or did you just pass out I've seen people confuse the 2 before but either way you should get that checked out


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## Headhunter

james0012 said:


> I don't plan on getting any more seizures! Thanks for the advice, I'll go tomorrow most likely.


Your telling me you  planned on having this one lol? Seriously though you never know especially when doing things like jiu jitsu or any martial art that has risk of brain injuries


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## drop bear

I have been choked out on top of a guy. Went out. He didn't notice. Woke back up and subbed him.


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## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> Couldn't you still have tapped with your hands I mean your arms were trapped but could you have still moved your hands? Also were you actually fitting or did you just pass out I've seen people confuse the 2 before but either way you should get that checked out



There is this wierd state where you think you are consious but you are not. So you might remember tapping or yelling. But all you were actually doing was snoring.






With experience you get better at tapping a bit earlier.


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## james0012

Headhunter said:


> Couldn't you still have tapped with your hands I mean your arms were trapped but could you have still moved your hands? Also were you actually fitting or did you just pass out I've seen people confuse the 2 before but either way you should get that checked out



My hands were in a weird position and he mounted me by surprise. One hand was underneath my body and the other was palm down and half pinned so I could only drum the mat. It was a little humiliating to get mounted by a child with no experience; kind of made me wonder if I've even learned anything in the 2 months! Maybe I need to start going twice a week.

Not sure if I was fitting, I was too busy fitting . Other people said I was shaking temporarily.


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## james0012

drop bear said:


> I have been choked out on top of a guy. Went out. He didn't notice. Woke back up and subbed him.



That is crazier! I had no idea where I was when I went out, was that an instinctual sub?


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## drop bear

james0012 said:


> My hands were in a weird position and he mounted me by surprise. One hand was underneath my body and the other was palm down and half pinned so I could only drum the mat. It was a little humiliating to get mounted by a child with no experience; kind of made me wonder if I've even learned anything in the 2 months! Maybe I need to start going twice a week.
> 
> Not sure if I was fitting, I was too busy fitting . Other people said I was shaking temporarily.



You just leaned what many martial artists never learn.

There are no lies on the mat.


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## drop bear

james0012 said:


> That is crazier! I had no idea where I was when I went out, was that an instinctual sub?



Nah I just woke back up. I think he thought i was toying with him because I was probably lying there on top of the guy.

You almost never get a sub from the bottom. I didn't think it would work either.


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## Dirty Dog

That's really unlikely to be an actual seizure. That sort of random muscle twitching is quite common when people pass out (or are choked out).


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## james0012

drop bear said:


> You just leaned what many martial artists never learn.
> 
> There are no lies on the mat.



What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha


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## drop bear




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## james0012

Dirty Dog said:


> That's really unlikely to be an actual seizure. That sort of random muscle twitching is quite common when people pass out (or are choked out).



Aren't seizures just random muscle twitching anyway?


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## james0012

drop bear said:


>



Definitely could have been this. Also, those kids are idiots. I've read so many stories on kids dying from the choking game.


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## drop bear

james0012 said:


> What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha



Your training wont work every time. People will come along and beat you. Even non trained guys can catch you out. Even if you are percieved as technically better. You learn to be humble and see the truth of things.

Your training is no longer based on what should happen but based on what does happen.

And when you learn to do that you become a better martial artist.


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## Dirty Dog

james0012 said:


> Aren't seizures just random muscle twitching anyway?



No. Seizures are the uncontrolled firing of neurons in all or part of the brain. 
The twitching and jerking people do when they pass out looks a lot like a seizure to the layman, but it's really not.


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## Bill Mattocks

Dirty Dog said:


> That's really unlikely to be an actual seizure. That sort of random muscle twitching is quite common when people pass out (or are choked out).



Called doing the chicken back in the day.


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## james0012

drop bear said:


> Your training wont work every time. People will come along and beat you. Even non trained guys can catch you out. Even if you are percieved as technically better. You learn to be humble and see the truth of things.
> 
> Your training is no longer based on what should happen but based on what does happen.
> 
> And when you learn to do that you become a better martial artist.



I hope I don't sound petty but I think the result was more of a combination of luck and me being taken by surprise than a question of skill or strength.


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## Bill Mattocks

james0012 said:


> I hope I don't sound petty but I think the result was more of a combination of luck and me being taken by surprise than a question of skill or strength.


Luck counts too.


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## drop bear

james0012 said:


> I hope I don't sound petty but I think the result was more of a combination of luck and me being taken by surprise than a question of skill or strength.



They are still factors that got you choked unconsious.


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## james0012

drop bear said:


> They are still factors that got you choked unconsious.



Fair enough, he did do well. Showed a lot of strength to get in the mount and then pin me. I'm sure I'll be better prepared for next time though.


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## JP3

You got to go get on top of that kid, bro... don't let him go forward playin' you like that. Next time, power force your way into a full mount, ground and pound him a couple imes and then front choke him out with your nose pressed right up against his saying, "Fun, ain't it!"

Wait... sorry... Flashback from a "Get in My Guard" youtube video.  Don't do that.

Sorry, couldn't resist since you made light of the situation already yourself. Agree with the above though, make apt witht he doc, let him/her know what happened, and just make sure.


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## james0012

JP3 said:


> You got to go get on top of that kid, bro... don't let him go forward playin' you like that. Next time, power force your way into a full mount, ground and pound him a couple imes and then front choke him out with your nose pressed right up against his saying, "Fun, ain't it!"
> 
> Wait... sorry... Flashback from a "Get in My Guard" youtube video.  Don't do that.
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist since you made light of the situation already yourself. Agree with the above though, make apt witht he doc, let him/her know what happened, and just make sure.



Scare him away from all martial arts, I like your thinking lol


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## kuniggety

james0012 said:


> In Jiu Jitsu class, I sparred off against an 11 year old child who must have been about 90 pounds and 1 foot shorter and had only attended a few classes. I'm 34 years old and have been attending class for about 2 months now so I didn't want to try too hard. This attitude led to him (impressively) getting me in a full mount with his legs pinning my shoulders so his arms were free and mine weren't. He then strangled me. (sidenote: is this a legal move?) I tapped out with my feet as my arms were pinned and I couldn't verbally say it. The kid didn't notice me tapping and knocked me out. Fair play to the kid as he told me that he let go as soon as I went out. So I had a seizure on the mats and urinated as well. I'm completely fine, more amused than anything out of the instructor's concern for the mats. Wife was worried about brain hypoxia but I assured her that's only for long durations of unconsciousness. My neck is really tender with a red mark on it so I think I'll skip classes for a week or two until healed.
> 
> That would have been some way to go, huh? The missus keeps telling me this sport is too dangerous, but I didn't think I would be in danger from children! I didn't go to the hospital but I'm going to go in tomorrow just to make sure. Do I win the prize for the craziest day?



Why couldn't you say "tap"?

Strangling is fine. Pretty much as long as it's not a strike it's okay. You can take your shoulder, jam it into their throat, and then hop on your toes and drive it in and it is a legitimate tap. Only things that are off limits, at lower levels, is certain leg locks because it's easy to cause long lasting damage with them.

Maybe because I'm a 6'1" 200 lbs guy but I can't see myself getting pinned by a 90 lbs person. Just buck them off. If you keep your hands in tight, if they mount that high, you should be able to chuck them forward over your head.


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## Andrew Green

james0012 said:


> The missus keeps telling me this sport is too dangerous, but I didn't think I would be in danger from children! I didn't go to the hospital but I'm going to go in tomorrow just to make sure. Do I win the prize for the craziest day?



Describe this seizure?

When people get choked out they sometimes twitch a little, but it's very different then a seizure.  I'm not saying you didn't, just that if someone has never seen a seizure and the twitchy thing that happens when someone is out from a choke it might be easy to confuse.

The sport is as safe as any other.  But safety is largely around how you train, at 11 I would not personally teach chokes after just a couple classes, there are far more important things to learn first.  There are also safe ways to choke a person, and unsafe ways.  Direct pressure on the wind pipe - that's not nice, and more dangerous then a blood choke.


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## kuniggety

Andrew Green said:


> The sport is as safe as any other.  But safety is largely around how you train, at 11 I would not personally teach chokes after just a couple classes, there are far more important things to learn first.  There are also safe ways to choke a person, and unsafe ways.  Direct pressure on the wind pipe - that's not nice, and more dangerous then a blood choke.



A lot of BJJ schools don't allow air/wind pipe chokes for minors. Blood chokes are hit and miss.


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## Andrew Green

kuniggety said:


> A lot of BJJ schools don't allow air/wind pipe chokes for minors. Blood chokes are hit and miss.



And for very good reason.  They are dangerous and often result in tears, which are not something we want on the mat


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## drop bear

kuniggety said:


> Why couldn't you say "tap"?
> 
> Strangling is fine. Pretty much as long as it's not a strike it's okay. You can take your shoulder, jam it into their throat, and then hop on your toes and drive it in and it is a legitimate tap. Only things that are off limits, at lower levels, is certain leg locks because it's easy to cause long lasting damage with them.
> 
> Maybe because I'm a 6'1" 200 lbs guy but I can't see myself getting pinned by a 90 lbs person. Just buck them off. If you keep your hands in tight, if they mount that high, you should be able to chuck them forward over your head.



Two reasons 
If you are super high in mount there is no buck. As you are relying on your hips 

And dudes can sit on one ton bulls and not get bucked if they have good mobility.


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## Andrew Green

kuniggety said:


> Strangling is fine. Pretty much as long as it's not a strike it's okay. You can take your shoulder, jam it into their throat, and then hop on your toes and drive it in and it is a legitimate tap. Only things that are off limits, at lower levels, is certain leg locks because it's easy to cause long lasting damage with them.



There are a lot of things that are illegal under most sub grappling rules that aren't strikes or leg locks.  especially at 11 years old.




> Maybe because I'm a 6'1" 200 lbs guy but I can't see myself getting pinned by a 90 lbs person. Just buck them off. If you keep your hands in tight, if they mount that high, you should be able to chuck them forward over your head.



Nor I, I'm not a beginner though.  And I am experienced in how to roll with someone half my size or smaller.  

For a beginner who while trying to go nice and easy because the person is smaller to end up caught, have the response to try and tap out and then pass out before figuring out a way out that was safe for the kid... that's certainly possible.

Sure, if he started thrashing and bucking he probably would have gotten free, but it's training and it's a kid.  Tapping out seems more then reasonable.  And if you aren't experienced enough recognizing that you are about to go out before it's too late and hitting tunnel vision on tapping seems more then possible.


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## kuniggety

drop bear said:


> Two reasons
> If you are super high in mount there is no buck. As you are relying on your hips
> 
> And dudes can sit on one ton bulls and not get bucked if they have good mobility.



If a person is relatively close to your body weight (or more), I agree it is certainly in the hips. With Someone much small than you, you can buck with your upper body. If a person is high mounted with their weight forward, and I get my elbows wriggled under, then I can still buck them over. Bench press might be a better term than buck here. I grapple with a handful of folks who are smaller than me who think they can grab a high mount on me without putting their knees into my armpits to secure open elbows and they usually find themselves getting thrown off.


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## kuniggety

Andrew Green said:


> There are a lot of things that are illegal under most sub grappling rules that aren't strikes or leg locks.  especially at 11 years old.



At 11, yes, what they can do to each other. I was answering what can be done to an adult (since he said he's 34) and what an adult can do to another adult. Restricted moved are rather limited. What the kid can do to another kid and what he can do to the kid, yes, are quite restricted.



> For a beginner who while trying to go nice and easy because the person is smaller to end up caught, have the response to try and tap out and then pass out before figuring out a way out that was safe for the kid... that's certainly possible.
> 
> Sure, if he started thrashing and bucking he probably would have gotten free, but it's training and it's a kid.  Tapping out seems more then reasonable.  And if you aren't experienced enough recognizing that you are about to go out before it's too late and hitting tunnel vision on tapping seems more then possible.



Concur but I think a huge part of training is adjusting your strategy based on who you're sparring with. Do I really want to pull that 300 lb go on to me? Or, am I really going to be successful pinning him in side control or, in this case, high mount. If they let me, yeah, but sparring usually involves resistance.


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## james0012

kuniggety said:


> Why couldn't you say "tap"?
> 
> Strangling is fine. Pretty much as long as it's not a strike it's okay. You can take your shoulder, jam it into their throat, and then hop on your toes and drive it in and it is a legitimate tap. Only things that are off limits, at lower levels, is certain leg locks because it's easy to cause long lasting damage with them.
> 
> Maybe because I'm a 6'1" 200 lbs guy but I can't see myself getting pinned by a 90 lbs person. Just buck them off. If you keep your hands in tight, if they mount that high, you should be able to chuck them forward over your head.



He had two hands around my throat pretty tightly, I couldn't speak. I did try to buck but I couldn't get any head leverage and could only move my legs.


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## james0012

Andrew Green said:


> Describe this seizure?
> 
> When people get choked out they sometimes twitch a little, but it's very different then a seizure.  I'm not saying you didn't, just that if someone has never seen a seizure and the twitchy thing that happens when someone is out from a choke it might be easy to confuse.
> 
> The sport is as safe as any other.  But safety is largely around how you train, at 11 I would not personally teach chokes after just a couple classes, there are far more important things to learn first.  There are also safe ways to choke a person, and unsafe ways.  Direct pressure on the wind pipe - that's not nice, and more dangerous then a blood choke.



I don't know what it looked like, but after reading replies it could well have been the twitchy thing.

And I don't think anyone had taught him it! It definitely is not nice, one of the reasons why I thought it was not a legal move.


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## james0012

kuniggety said:


> If a person is relatively close to your body weight (or more), I agree it is certainly in the hips. With Someone much small than you, you can buck with your upper body. If a person is high mounted with their weight forward, and I get my elbows wriggled under, then I can still buck them over. Bench press might be a better term than buck here. I grapple with a handful of folks who are smaller than me who think they can grab a high mount on me without putting their knees into my armpits to secure open elbows and they usually find themselves getting thrown off.



I couldn't get any elevation.


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## Buka

james0012 said:


> In Jiu Jitsu class, I sparred off against an 11 year old child who must have been about 90 pounds and 1 foot shorter and had only attended a few classes. I'm 34 years old and have been attending class for about 2 months now so I didn't want to try too hard. This attitude led to him (impressively) getting me in a full mount with his legs pinning my shoulders so his arms were free and mine weren't. He then strangled me. (sidenote: is this a legal move?) I tapped out with my feet as my arms were pinned and I couldn't verbally say it. The kid didn't notice me tapping and knocked me out. Fair play to the kid as he told me that he let go as soon as I went out. So I had a seizure on the mats and urinated as well. I'm completely fine, more amused than anything out of the instructor's concern for the mats. Wife was worried about brain hypoxia but I assured her that's only for long durations of unconsciousness. My neck is really tender with a red mark on it so I think I'll skip classes for a week or two until healed.
> 
> That would have been some way to go, huh? The missus keeps telling me this sport is too dangerous, but I didn't think I would be in danger from children! I didn't go to the hospital but I'm going to go in tomorrow just to make sure. Do I win the prize for the craziest day?



What's worse is I hear his sixty pound younger sister is gunning for you. Aims to make you a notch on her new Garanimals.

Welcome to MartialTalk, James.


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## james0012

Buka said:


> What's worse is I hear his sixty pound younger sister is gunning for you. Aims to make you a notch on her new Garanimals.
> 
> Welcome to MartialTalk, James.



Too soon man, too soon. Thank you!


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## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha


It's okay. I usually assume Drop Bear is offensive, too. 

Seriously, I think he was saying you just learned that you weren't as good as you thought (per your comment that you need to train more). Something many martial artists train a long time without learning, or at least learn a lot later than we should, and a useful lesson for any of us.


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## Gerry Seymour

JP3 said:


> You got to go get on top of that kid, bro... don't let him go forward playin' you like that. Next time, power force your way into a full mount, ground and pound him a couple imes and then front choke him out with your nose pressed right up against his saying, "Fun, ain't it!"
> 
> Wait... sorry... Flashback from a "Get in My Guard" youtube video.  Don't do that.
> 
> Sorry, couldn't resist since you made light of the situation already yourself. Agree with the above though, make apt witht he doc, let him/her know what happened, and just make sure.


Okay, Kramer.


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## Gerry Seymour

kuniggety said:


> If a person is relatively close to your body weight (or more), I agree it is certainly in the hips. With Someone much small than you, you can buck with your upper body. If a person is high mounted with their weight forward, and I get my elbows wriggled under, then I can still buck them over. Bench press might be a better term than buck here. I grapple with a handful of folks who are smaller than me who think they can grab a high mount on me without putting their knees into my armpits to secure open elbows and they usually find themselves getting thrown off.


You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.


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## james0012

gpseymour said:


> You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.



Is that all its been? Feels like more but the maths adds up. And yeah, it's hard to concentrate when you're being strangled for a straight minute. Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?


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## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> Is that all its been? Feels like more but the maths adds up. And yeah, it's hard to concentrate when you're being strangled for a straight minute. Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?


Very unlikely it was a minute, though it may have seemed that way.


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## james0012

gpseymour said:


> Very unlikely it was a minute, though it may have seemed that way.



It was a long time, 1 minute would still be my estimation. But then again, I'm not the most reliable person with times.


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## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> He then strangled me. (sidenote: is this a legal move?)



Yep.



james0012 said:


> I don't think anyone had taught him it! It definitely is not nice, one of the reasons why I thought it was not a legal move.


Most of jiu-jitsu is not "nice" moves. You're training to break people's limbs and choke them unconscious. That's why tapping early and often is so important.

From your description, the kid was doing the classic Hollywood-style choke just wrapping both hands around your neck and leaning his weight on you? The reason that's not taught is that it's much less effective and much easier to escape than a technical jiu-jitsu choke.



james0012 said:


> kind of made me wonder if I've even learned anything in the 2 months! Maybe I need to start going twice a week.


It's hard to progress very quickly going to classes only once per week. Also, 2 months is not very long.



Dirty Dog said:


> That's really unlikely to be an actual seizure. That sort of random muscle twitching is quite common when people pass out (or are choked out).


Agreed. I've seen that multiple times.



james0012 said:


> I'm 34 years old and have been attending class for about 2 months now so I didn't want to try too hard. This attitude led to him (impressively) getting me in a full mount with his legs pinning my shoulders so his arms were free and mine weren't






drop bear said:


> You just leaned what many martial artists never learn.
> 
> There are no lies on the mat.






james0012 said:


> What's that mean? Spent 2 minutes re-reading this and came up with nothing. But I feel like I should be offended haha



It means you've had a chance to learn the important distinction between what your ego would like to tell you and the cold truth of reality. You thought a little kid couldn't do anything to you and you got choked unconscious as a result. Now imagine it was someone your own size, with actual experience and training, using a proper technical choke which is 10 times as effective as what the kid did to you.



james0012 said:


> but I think the result was more of a combination of luck


As Renzo Gracie says, the more I train, the luckier I get.

This wasn't a random street encounter where someone cold-cocked you just as your turned to look at a car crash and simultaneously tripped on a pothole. This was a controlled environment on a flat surface with an agreed upon start point. You lost because you underestimated your opponent and then didn't have the skillset to escape once that error in judgment got you into a bad place. Both of those are in your power to work on improving.



james0012 said:


> me being taken by surprise than a question of skill or strength.



I'll agree it's not a question of strength (unless that's a freakishly strong 11 year old). It's definitely a question of skill. With greater skill, you would have been able to avoid getting mounted like that and would have known how to escape if you did get into that position.



james0012 said:


> Speaking of, do any of you feel that time was excessive? Even if he didn't notice my tapping, surely he could have used common sense there, I was gagging. I don't blame the kid but surely he should know that strangling for that long isn't good, right?



That's what tapping is for. If your partner doesn't tap, he's indicating that he still feels safe.True, an experienced practitioner will recognize a situation where his partner's hands are unable to tap and will be alert for other signals (like your feet tapping), but if the kid has only been to a few classes, he may not recognize that.

Tip for the future: if you are being choked like that, tuck your chin to your chest and pull your shoulders to your ears. That should protect your neck long enough so that you should at least be able to say "tap" verbally.


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## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> It means you've had a chance to learn the important distinction between what your ego would like to tell you and the cold truth of reality. You thought a little kid couldn't do anything to you and you got choked unconscious as a result. Now imagine it was someone your own size, with actual experience and training, using a proper technical choke which is 10 times as effective as what the kid did to you.



Yes, admittingly there is a lot of training to go.



Tony Dismukes said:


> That's what tapping is for. If your partner doesn't tap, he's indicating that he still feels safe.True, an experienced practitioner will recognize a situation where his partner's hands are unable to tap and will be alert for other signals (like your feet tapping), but if the kid has only been to a few classes, he may not recognize that.
> 
> Tip for the future: if you are being choked like that, tuck your chin to your chest and pull your shoulders to your ears. That should protect your neck long enough so that you should at least be able to say "tap" verbally.



What I'm saying is that it was clear that I was not feeling safe. I looked in the bathroom mirror afterwards and was completely blue. I was also continuously gagging quite loudly. If I were on the other end, I would have let go quite quickly regardless if there was a tap to prevent serious injury.

I don't think the tip would apply here. My shoulders were trapped underneath his legs and he had control of my head movements.


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## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> My hands were in a weird position and he mounted me by surprise. One hand was underneath my body and the other was palm down and half pinned so I could only drum the mat.





james0012 said:


> I don't think the tip would apply here. My shoulders were trapped underneath his legs and he had control of my head movements.



I suspect you are not remembering the details of your position and your sparring partner's position completely accurately. That's not surprising. You're at the point where many beginners barely can tell their left from their right or how to move on the ground without falling over on their own. A lot of the time, your perception about how your body is positioned does not quite match up to reality.

It would be _very_ difficult to mount someone in such a way that your legs could control their shoulders and head so completely that they could not tuck their chin or shrug their shoulders towards their ears. It would be even harder to do that to someone who is much larger. I'm a 194 pound BJJ black belt and I'd have to do some experimentation to figure out if I could even do that. If you _could_ do it, it would change the angle of the choke so as to make the choke weaker. Furthermore, it would mean the top person was so far forward that the bottom person's hands would definitely be free to tap or could become free to do so with just a minimal amount of wiggling.

If your instructor happened to be watching at the moment, I'm sure he could have shown you how to easily adjust your position so that you verbally or physically tap. Since you aren't used to this sort of experience yet, you probably froze up mentally and didn't realize a lot of the opportunities you had for protecting yourself, escaping, or tapping.


----------



## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suspect you are not remembering the details of your position and your sparring partner's position completely accurately. That's not surprising. You're at the point where many beginners barely can tell their left from their right or how to move on the ground without falling over on their own. A lot of the time, your perception about how your body is positioned does not quite match up to reality.
> 
> It would be _very_ difficult to mount someone in such a way that your legs could control their shoulders and head so completely that they could not tuck their chin or shrug their shoulders towards their ears. It would be even harder to do that to someone who is much larger. I'm a 194 pound BJJ black belt and I'd have to do some experimentation to figure out if I could even do that. If you _could_ do it, it would change the angle of the choke so as to make the choke weaker. Furthermore, it would mean the top person was so far forward that the bottom person's hands would definitely be free to tap or could become free to do so with just a minimal amount of wiggling.
> 
> If your instructor happened to be watching at the moment, I'm sure he could have shown you how to easily adjust your position so that you verbally or physically tap. Since you aren't used to this sort of experience yet, you probably froze up mentally and didn't realize a lot of the opportunities you had for protecting yourself, escaping, or tapping.



I think this is where the luck part I was talking about comes in. Now this may not be completely accurate as I am just a lowly beginner haha. But here's how I remembered it:

When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense, I'm sure there were a lot of opportunities to escape or tap that I didn't take. I know I was concentrating on trying to make noise with my feet more than anything. Even tried tapping out by blinking hard 3 times, that would have been a first!

As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement? I don't know, I'm probably making a fool of myself! And the instructor wasn't watching, he probably would have broke it up if he was.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense,



Do you remember, was he

sitting on you like a chair, with his feet on the floor past your head
kneeling on your shoulders, with his feet tucked under him and on top of you
sitting on your shoulders with the inside of his knee wrapped over your shoulders and his feet tucked underneath your body and/or arms
or sitting on your shoulders with his knees splayed wide so they were on the floor next to your shoulders and his lower legs on the floor outside of your arms?
Any one of those has fairly easy ways to free your hands enough to tap, the details are just a little different for each.



james0012 said:


> As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement?



Nope. When I teach the defense against that choke, tucking the chin (and shrugging the shoulders) is the very first thing I show. The choking hands really can't stop it. You just didn't try it because you haven't yet learned the fundamentals of defense against chokes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> I think this is where the luck part I was talking about comes in. Now this may not be completely accurate as I am just a lowly beginner haha. But here's how I remembered it:
> 
> When he mounted me, I tried to push my arms off the floor and I fell down and landed on my arm. So my right arm was definitely trapped underneath my back, maybe near my armpit area. My left hand was palm down near my armpit area, elbows outward. He was sitting on both my shoulders, wrists and upper body very close to my neck. My head was flat on the floor and he was directly above me strangling. I hope that makes some sense, I'm sure there were a lot of opportunities to escape or tap that I didn't take. I know I was concentrating on trying to make noise with my feet more than anything. Even tried tapping out by blinking hard 3 times, that would have been a first!
> 
> As for the tucking of the chin, wouldn't the strangling hands just block chin movement? I don't know, I'm probably making a fool of myself! And the instructor wasn't watching, he probably would have broke it up if he was.


As Tony posted, there are defenses at any of the points that would restrict your hands (and he's far more of an expert on those than I am). Most are fairly easy...(wait for it)...once you know and have practiced them. This early in your training, you just haven't gotten to (many/any) of them.

And the chin tuck is very strong. It would probably take someone pretty skilled and reasonably strong to prevent the tuck from buying some space (@Tony Dismukes I assume that's something someone like you could manage?). Neck muscles are pretty strong, compared to hand muscles, so once you learn to use this, it's a big help at buying a bit of an opening.


----------



## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> Do you remember, was he
> 
> sitting on you like a chair, with his feet on the floor past your head
> kneeling on your shoulders, with his feet tucked under him and on top of you
> sitting on your shoulders with the inside of his knee wrapped over your shoulders and his feet tucked underneath your body and/or arms
> or sitting on your shoulders with his knees splayed wide so they were on the floor next to your shoulders and his lower legs on the floor outside of your arms?
> Any one of those has fairly easy ways to free your hands enough to tap, the details are just a little different for each.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. When I teach the defense against that choke, tucking the chin (and shrugging the shoulders) is the very first thing I show. The choking hands really can't stop it. You just didn't try it because you haven't yet learned the fundamentals of defense against chokes.



So my shoulders and hands were close together, my elbows were pointing out. He had his knees on my shoulders and the upper shins on my left wrist and right forearm. It was an unorthodox position, I'm sure. I doubt he could replicate it if he tried. What were the easy ways to free my hands there? I wish I could show you a picture but I would have no idea what to type in Google.

As for the neck, I was looking straight up at the ceiling (edit: by ceiling I mean figuratively, ceiling vision was obscured), back of my head pinned against the mat. From that position, would it still be possible to tuck my neck? Considering the more I tuck, the faster I would choke as well. I would like to try out this defense.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> And the chin tuck is very strong. It would probably take someone pretty skilled and reasonably strong to prevent the tuck from buying some space (@Tony Dismukes I assume that's something someone like you could manage?).


Not from that position and applying that choke. If you want to prevent the chin tuck, you need a good lever. In a real fight, I'd prefer the nose. In a more friendly match, from the rear you can use the forehead, from front headlock position you can use the chinstrap grip, from mounted you can use sidewise pressure on the chin to rotate the head and open up some neck space.



james0012 said:


> So my shoulders and hands were close together, my elbows were pointing out. He had his knees on my shoulders and the upper shins on my left wrist and right forearm. It was an unorthodox position, I'm sure. I doubt he could replicate it if he tried. What were the easy ways to free my hands there?


In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)



james0012 said:


> From that position, would it still be possible to tuck my neck?


Absolutely.



james0012 said:


> Considering the more I tuck, the faster I would choke as well.



Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.

To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not from that position and applying that choke. If you want to prevent the chin tuck, you need a good lever. In a real fight, I'd prefer the nose. In a more friendly match, from the rear you can use the forehead, from front headlock position you can use the chinstrap grip, from mounted you can use sidewise pressure on the chin to rotate the head and open up some neck space.
> 
> 
> In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)
> 
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> 
> 
> Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.
> 
> To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.


Thanks, Tony. I assumed there would be something that would work there to get past/prevent the tuck, beyond what I know. But now that you put it that way, there really isn't much leverage if you're positioned that high on the torso.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> Thanks, Tony. I assumed there would be something that would work there to get past/prevent the tuck, beyond what I know. But now that you put it that way, there really isn't much leverage if you're positioned that high on the torso.


Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.

Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.

*(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)


----------



## Gerry Seymour

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.
> 
> Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.


Good point.



> *(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)


I remember an instructor at a seminar telling me about seeing someone (Gene LeBell?) teach that particular lesson to a certain MA movie star who thought he wasn't chokeable.


----------



## james0012

First of all, thank you for taking your time to help me with this. It is appreciated and I can tell that you are a good instructor.



Tony Dismukes said:


> In that position, you didn't have the leverage to lift your arms straight up to free them, since that would have meant lifting his whole body weight with your arms at a really bad angle. Instead, first bridge up as high as you can to take your own body weight of off your trapped arm. Next, while you are still raised up straighten your arms, extending your hands down towards your waist as if you were reaching into your pockets. This will also bring your elbows back in towards your ribs. This is a reasonably powerful motion and there wouldn't be nearly enough of his pressure on your arms to stop it because you aren't going against gravity. Once your arms are extended down by your sides and he is all the way up on your shoulders, you are free to just bend an elbow and tap him on the back to let him know the choke is working. (There are also a bunch of escapes you could do from here, but let's just focus on getting you to be able to tap out safely for now.)



I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back. To be fair, I did only try that for about 5 seconds before just trying to tap out with my feet, if I continued I might have been able to dislodge my arm but it was unlikely.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Nope. Tucked chin makes the choke take much longer.
> 
> To clarify a bit, when I say tuck the chin, don't think about bending your head forward until your chin touches your chest. Think about being a turtle pulling yourself into your shell, actually shortening your neck. It would be a lot easier if I could show you in person.



Yes, this does make sense actually. I was under the impression that moving my chin towards his hands would make it a tighter squeeze.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to contradict everything you're saying here, it is good advice. But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference? I did try to move my head in the choke, although I'm not sure if it would count as a chin tuck and made only the most minimal of movements. It probably didn't go like this, I was probably more likely trying to lift my head up instead of tucking my chin but here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.

Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.


----------



## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, you could push up on their nose (or fishhook a nostril with your thumb) to force the chin up, but that only leaves one hand to choke with. As soon as you let go he can put his chin back down.
> 
> Of course with a proper technical choke you only have to get the chin up long enough to get your arm under it to seal the deal*. The Hollywood psycho choke (some people call it the rape choke) isn't so effective in that regard because it doesn't prevent the person from tucking their chin even after the choke is applied.
> 
> *(A really good rear naked choke can finish you off even if you do keep the chin tucked so the arm can't get underneath. Under the chin is better for the choke, though.)



So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke? Who even names these things?


----------



## kuniggety

james0012 said:


> Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.



You learn a lot about body mechanics, physiology, and a little physics when studying BJJ... and that's along with the chess like strategies that you will eventually develop for baiting and responding to your opponents baits and openings.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back


I suspect your were probably trying to move your arm sidewise out from under your back rather than extending it towards your feet. The latter is a much stronger motion.



james0012 said:


> But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference?


Not really.



james0012 said:


> here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.
> 
> Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck?


Not so much. He can still move his hands (although that won't help him choke you.) The main effect of the chin tuck (or turtle-necking as I sometimes call it) is that it thickens and strengthens your neck giving more protection for your windpipe and your arteries. That should relieve the pressure enough for you to be able to say "tap" - especially when the guy choking you is only half your size.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke?


The more common name I've heard for it is the "rape choke", but that can be problematic if you want to run a family friendly academy. It doesn't have an "official" name because it's not a move we train to use, just one we train to defend against.


----------



## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> I suspect your were probably trying to move your arm sidewise out from under your back rather than extending it towards your feet. The latter is a much stronger motion.



I can't remember my motions but it sounds like that is what probably happened.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Not so much. He can still move his hands (although that won't help him choke you.) The main effect of the chin tuck (or turtle-necking as I sometimes call it) is that it thickens and strengthens your neck giving more protection for your windpipe and your arteries. That should relieve the pressure enough for you to be able to say "tap" - especially when the guy choking you is only half your size.



I'd imagine the chin wouldn't be able to push against 2 hands though, irrelevant of size. How much motion is required to thicken and strengthen the neck?



Tony Dismukes said:


> The more common name I've heard for it is the "rape choke", but that can be problematic if you want to run a family friendly academy. It doesn't have an "official" name because it's not a move we train to use, just one we train to defend against.



Ah, I can see why. I'm really against the choke and not just for personal reasons.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> I'd imagine the chin wouldn't be able to push against 2 hands though, irrelevant of size. How much motion is required to thicken and strengthen the neck?


The chin isn't really moving the hands, so that's not an issue. How much your neck shortens in the process mostly depends on how long your neck is to begin with. Probably no more than an inch for most people. The chin itself may move a bit more.



james0012 said:


> I'm really against the choke and not just for personal reasons.



Wait until people start tapping you out with _real_ chokes, You'll long for the days when it was just an untrained kid with his hands on your throat.


----------



## james0012

Tony Dismukes said:


> The chin isn't really moving the hands, so that's not an issue. How much your neck shortens in the process mostly depends on how long your neck is to begin with. Probably no more than an inch for most people. The chin itself may move a bit more.



My neck is pretty short, his hands were probably covering the entirety of my neck as well as parts of the bottom of the chin.



Tony Dismukes said:


> Wait until people start tapping you out with _real_ chokes, You'll long for the days when it was just an untrained kid with his hands on your throat.




Can't wait! But in all seriousness, I think I would prefer for real chokes with more experienced people.

1) It's less embarrassing. I'm a 6 footer and the kid could well have been under 5 foot and was skinny for that height. Getting in the mount was probably more of me taking it easy on him but the fact that he could push my arms down under his legs and maintain it when I was trying to get out was embarrassing. Also, it's a degrading choke and not being able to tap heightens that. This doesn't even cover the humiliation of urinating oneself.

2) They would have let go sooner. After gagging for quite a long period, I'm sure an experienced student would let go irrelevant of a tap out.

3) It was painful. I'm sure the other chokes from experienced students would be more painful, but this went on for a long time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> First of all, thank you for taking your time to help me with this. It is appreciated and I can tell that you are a good instructor.
> 
> 
> 
> I tried bridging but am not as flexible as I would like. I could get my hips and some of my lower back off the ground but my arm was trapped on my upper back. To be fair, I did only try that for about 5 seconds before just trying to tap out with my feet, if I continued I might have been able to dislodge my arm but it was unlikely.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, this does make sense actually. I was under the impression that moving my chin towards his hands would make it a tighter squeeze.
> 
> I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to contradict everything you're saying here, it is good advice. But would him having two hands on my throat make a difference? I did try to move my head in the choke, although I'm not sure if it would count as a chin tuck and made only the most minimal of movements. It probably didn't go like this, I was probably more likely trying to lift my head up instead of tucking my chin but here's how I would imagine it going: I push my chin down on to the back of his hand and his hand is prevented from moving as it is resting on his other hand.
> 
> Would that have happened if I had tried a proper chin tuck? Got to tell you, when I first started Jiu Jitsu I never thought it would be this complicated. I think I've put more thought into BJJ than my degree.


The chin tuck is powerful. It won't save you from a choke, but it will buy you some time. With a strangle like that, it can buy real time. Pair that with the types of techniques Tony is talking about (once you've practiced them), and it will get you out of this type of situation.

BJJ is simple. BJJ is complex. Because that's how bodies work. As with any grappling art, as you practice more, the moves make more sense. There are common principles across them, so as you learn more ways to do things (techniques), you start to get a better picture of how to manipulate your opponent and yourself.

I'd say if you weren't able to bridge to get your arms free, that's probably not a matter of flexibility, so much as technique and/or core strength. It doesn't take much flexibility to bridge to your shoulders, and it takes a lot of flexibility to get your hand back under your own shoulder. So, you should be able to bridge to free a hand stuck behind you. But, and this is a big "but", you have to bridge well, and that's tough to do under duress when you are still a beginner.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> So the proper name for it is The Hollywood Psycho Choke? Who even names these things?


I think that's my favorite accurate name for any attack, ever.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> My neck is pretty short, his hands were probably covering the entirety of my neck as well as parts of the bottom of the chin.


That's the key. When you turtle (tuck the chin), you actually occlude their grip a bit, pushing some fingers off the key areas and/or compressing the hands into a weaker position. That's part of the reason it's not as effective on a good rear naked choke - no fingers, and less surface area, so less total effect from the tuck.


----------



## james0012

gpseymour said:


> The chin tuck is powerful. It won't save you from a choke, but it will buy you some time. With a strangle like that, it can buy real time. Pair that with the types of techniques Tony is talking about (once you've practiced them), and it will get you out of this type of situation.
> 
> BJJ is simple. BJJ is complex. Because that's how bodies work. As with any grappling art, as you practice more, the moves make more sense. There are common principles across them, so as you learn more ways to do things (techniques), you start to get a better picture of how to manipulate your opponent and yourself.
> 
> I'd say if you weren't able to bridge to get your arms free, that's probably not a matter of flexibility, so much as technique and/or core strength. It doesn't take much flexibility to bridge to your shoulders, and it takes a lot of flexibility to get your hand back under your own shoulder. So, you should be able to bridge to free a hand stuck behind you. But, and this is a big "but", you have to bridge well, and that's tough to do under duress when you are still a beginner.



I could move my lower back upwards in the bridge but I needed to move the kid to get out. He had my forearm pinned so even if I could get my arm out from under my back, I would still be pinned. And I couldn't even budge the kid let alone lift him up enough to escape. I guess I should have tried bridging a little more as it was probably better served than uselessly flailing around but I don't think it was possible for me to tap.

And yes, it is very hard to concentrate under duress. I was panicking from all the gagging I was doing and didn't think anything through. My mind was just focussing on trying to breathe. Not to mention, his face is blocking my vision throughout and I can't see what I'm doing.



gpseymour said:


> That's the key. When you turtle (tuck the chin), you actually occlude their grip a bit, pushing some fingers off the key areas and/or compressing the hands into a weaker position. That's part of the reason it's not as effective on a good rear naked choke - no fingers, and less surface area, so less total effect from the tuck.



Okay, that makes more sense then. I'll definitely implement that next time. Would I need access to my shoulders for tucking to work? Because he had my shoulders pinned. Or would simply tucking my neck be enough to verbally tap out?


----------



## JP3

gpseymour said:


> You're applying a level of skill someone with about 8 classes (2 months, once per week, per the OP) probably doesn't execute without a lot of thought. Doesn't sound like strangle-boy gave him time to think that out.


Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.

Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.

James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.

But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching.  Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.

And. air chokes suck. Ow.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> I could move my lower back upwards in the bridge but I needed to move the kid to get out. He had my forearm pinned so even if I could get my arm out from under my back, I would still be pinned. And I couldn't even budge the kid let alone lift him up enough to escape. I guess I should have tried bridging a little more as it was probably better served than uselessly flailing around but I don't think it was possible for me to tap.
> 
> And yes, it is very hard to concentrate under duress. I was panicking from all the gagging I was doing and didn't think anything through. My mind was just focussing on trying to breathe. Not to mention, his face is blocking my vision throughout and I can't see what I'm doing.


Don't worry too much about what didn't work at the time. You'll reprogram some instinctive movements into movements that create more effective technique. I'm nowhere near Tony's level (or some of the other BJJ guys here), but I could bridge out of that, free the first arm, and probably manage what Tony described for the other arm. Keep at it, and you'll hit my (not very high) level of ability at bridging fairly soon - probably months, not years. As for not being able to see what you're doing, one of the commonalities in martial arts training is that you learn to feel/know what your body is up to without seeing it. That not being able to see will not be a problem at that point.



> Okay, that makes more sense then. I'll definitely implement that next time. Would I need access to my shoulders for tucking to work? Because he had my shoulders pinned. Or would simply tucking my neck be enough to verbally tap out?


Not really, because you're pulling your head down (for a simple explanation) with your neck and shoulder muscles. Shrugging the shoulders will help in a situation like you had, but they are neither very difficult to access (even in that situation) nor necessary for the technique to gain you some time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

JP3 said:


> Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.
> 
> Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.
> 
> James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.
> 
> But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching.  Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.
> 
> And. air chokes suck. Ow.


Escapes don't have to be all that explosive to work against someone that size. A small shift gains a lot of leverage, and then you can control the rest smoothly.


----------



## james0012

JP3 said:


> Gerry, Strangle Boy should be capitalized. Proper noun, due to title you so generously bestowed.
> 
> Kid's going to grow up to be Shimewaza Man.
> 
> James clarified how the kid caught him. I was thinking tunnel vision myself, literally since he Was being choked... and the tunnel vision happens quite often, both in the actual vision and in the progress of thought. But, he clarified about the position and the not speaking thing, and erupting into a full-bklown, explosive escape could have hurt budding Strangle Boy's bod, as well as feelings, so the restraint was admirable.
> 
> But, you're right, blood asphyxiation uusually doesn't cause seizures, it causes the momentary shutdown of the voluntary nervous system, thus da muskles. When we reboot that way, often times there's test circuits firing to get things all back online and all green lights acorss the board. Sometimes this manifests in visible, sometimes more than visible but obvious twitching.  Happens quite a bit at judo tournaments when the slippery ground guys start working some smooth chokes on people who don't know they are there until it's too late.
> 
> And. air chokes suck. Ow.



You make me sound like some kind of hero, all I wanted to do was get the kid in trouble so I could talk to his hot mum 

No but seriously, the build up to the mount was when I was taking it easy. When he started strangling me, I attempted many an explosive escape but couldn't move him.

And yes, I'm sure it wasn't a seizure now. Went to the doctors earlier today as promised and got the all clear, just no BJJ for a few weeks until the neck bruising goes down.

They really do suck.


----------



## james0012

gpseymour said:


> Don't worry too much about what didn't work at the time. You'll reprogram some instinctive movements into movements that create more effective technique. I'm nowhere near Tony's level (or some of the other BJJ guys here), but I could bridge out of that, free the first arm, and probably manage what Tony described for the other arm. Keep at it, and you'll hit my (not very high) level of ability at bridging fairly soon - probably months, not years.



Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.


----------



## kuniggety

james0012 said:


> Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.



I remember my first roll and looking at the other person and just going "what do I do?" I didn't grow up wrestling or even really rough housing. There is a lot to learn in the beginning and it all seems overwhelming at first. Keep it up and piece by piece it will start coming together. You'll start getting more awareness of your breathing, your limbs, your body weight, and your concentration. At the same time you'll start feeling the shifts in the other person's weight, awareness of where all of their limbs are at, etc. You'll start panicking ALOT less as you'll learn to stay calm and assess the situation. The tunnel vision will start disappearing. You won't be going "oh my god, I'm getting choked!". Instead, its "okay, they're working on settling it in and now it's settled in and not I've got a few more seconds", all the meanwhile taking note of the spatial awareness I was mentioning earlier and being able to really think about how to deal with it. A lot of BJJ in the beginning is just learning to really relax in the moment.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

james0012 said:


> Yeah, any sport really is about perseverance and hard work, especially BJJ. I think I'll take an extra class a week if I can find time.


Side note: BJJ is incredibly tough, and needs way more than once a week.

My first roll, was with my kempo insturctor, who happened to be a purple belt in BJJ. We agreed before rolling to go for 5 minutes, and I tapped out about 20 times in those 5 minutes. Later, I joined a BJJ school for a month, attended around 4x per week, and my accomplishment there was by the end being able to go 3 minutes without being tapped out. If you are serious about learning BJJ, once a week is not nearly enough time to learn what you need, unless you got 10 years to spare to get decent at it.


----------



## james0012

kuniggety said:


> I remember my first roll and looking at the other person and just going "what do I do?" I didn't grow up wrestling or even really rough housing. There is a lot to learn in the beginning and it all seems overwhelming at first. Keep it up and piece by piece it will start coming together. You'll start getting more awareness of your breathing, your limbs, your body weight, and your concentration. At the same time you'll start feeling the shifts in the other person's weight, awareness of where all of their limbs are at, etc. You'll start panicking ALOT less as you'll learn to stay calm and assess the situation. The tunnel vision will start disappearing. You won't be going "oh my god, I'm getting choked!". Instead, its "okay, they're working on settling it in and now it's settled in and not I've got a few more seconds", all the meanwhile taking note of the spatial awareness I was mentioning earlier and being able to really think about how to deal with it. A lot of BJJ in the beginning is just learning to really relax in the moment.



I've had a few sparring fights now and usually learn something or show signs of improvement in each one even though it's just constant tapping out against more experienced fighters. I've even tapped out a more experienced white belt, an adult this time! The kid though, I think this was his second lesson and he told me that he doesn't have any experience in fighting. So it definitely felt like my learning regressed somewhat from this.

Also, I am usually very good under pressure. I've played football (soccer) for my whole life and am usually playing my best in the 90th minute in close games. I know BJJ is _slightly _different to football but the point is I've never really cracked under pressure until now. Even in my other BJJ fights, I've never panicked as I knew I had some control on the outcome of the fight by tapping. But in this instance, I didn't have that and he had regulation of my breathing which led me getting a little tunnel vision towards the end there. The point is, I think this was a one time incident where I lost my calm, I don't think tunnel vision is something I have to worry that much about in the future unless this type of choking is a common thing in BJJ.



kempodisciple said:


> Side note: BJJ is incredibly tough, and needs way more than once a week.
> 
> My first roll, was with my kempo insturctor, who happened to be a purple belt in BJJ. We agreed before rolling to go for 5 minutes, and I tapped out about 20 times in those 5 minutes. Later, I joined a BJJ school for a month, attended around 4x per week, and my accomplishment there was by the end being able to go 3 minutes without being tapped out. If you are serious about learning BJJ, once a week is not nearly enough time to learn what you need, unless you got 10 years to spare to get decent at it.



The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> I've had a few sparring fights now and usually learn something or show signs of improvement in each one even though it's just constant tapping out against more experienced fighters. I've even tapped out a more experienced white belt, an adult this time! The kid though, I think this was his second lesson and he told me that he doesn't have any experience in fighting. So it definitely felt like my learning regressed somewhat from this.
> 
> Also, I am usually very good under pressure. I've played football (soccer) for my whole life and am usually playing my best in the 90th minute in close games. I know BJJ is _slightly _different to football but the point is I've never really cracked under pressure until now. Even in my other BJJ fights, I've never panicked as I knew I had some control on the outcome of the fight by tapping. But in this instance, I didn't have that and he had regulation of my breathing which led me getting a little tunnel vision towards the end there. The point is, I think this was a one time incident where I lost my calm, I don't think tunnel vision is something I have to worry that much about in the future unless this type of choking is a common thing in BJJ.
> 
> 
> 
> The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.


Losing your calm when being choked is normal. That's one of the huge benefits of BJJ training, IMO - you stop being normal in a lot of good ways.


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.


Almost every student I've ever taught (not BJJ, but still a comparable training regimen) has attended twice a week. You'll progress about three times as fast going twice a week as going once a week, as you'll lose less between classes.


----------



## james0012

gpseymour said:


> Almost every student I've ever taught (not BJJ, but still a comparable training regimen) has attended twice a week. You'll progress about three times as fast going twice a week as going once a week, as you'll lose less between classes.



I think what I'll do is alternate between 1 and 2 lessons. My wife is 2 months pregnant now so it's likely going to be 1 most of the time for a while. And I do have to miss lessons for a week or two as the neck bruising is turtle-neck-type-prominent.

Thanks to everyone who answered, it was helpful.


----------



## kuniggety

james0012 said:


> Also, I am usually very good under pressure. I've played football (soccer) for my whole life and am usually playing my best in the 90th minute in close games. I know BJJ is _slightly _different to football but the point is I've never really cracked under pressure until now. Even in my other BJJ fights, I've never panicked as I knew I had some control on the outcome of the fight by tapping. But in this instance, I didn't have that and he had regulation of my breathing which led me getting a little tunnel vision towards the end there. The point is, I think this was a one time incident where I lost my calm, I don't think tunnel vision is something I have to worry that much about in the future unless this type of choking is a common thing in BJJ.



It's not just about cracking under pressure as a whole like in a sport. You're going to be constantly putting yourself into new and uncomfortable positions. The first time you get a guy (or I guess gal) who massively outweighs you in north/south position and smothers your face with the girth of their chest or stomachs, it will suck. You really can not breath then. You'll have your face sat on. You'll have your gi pulled over your face which just make breathing harder. If it's just a one time thing for you, then great, but don't expect it to just be only this one time.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

james0012 said:


> The thing is, work and life gets in the way of that. Also, that would mean prioritising BJJ over my other hobbies which I have a bigger investment in. I could try for 2 times a week, but 4 times is excessive.


I wasn't suggesting 4 times a week, that was a personal decision and if you're planning on doing it long-term will more than likely lead to burnout. I think 2 times a week is fine for most MA's as long as you're not competing (1 time a week can help, but you will progress much slower than you want). Since your wife is pregnant don't focus on it too much as you'll still progress once a week, it will just be slow.


----------



## james0012

kuniggety said:


> It's not just about cracking under pressure as a whole like in a sport. You're going to be constantly putting yourself into new and uncomfortable positions. The first time you get a guy (or I guess gal) who massively outweighs you in north/south position and smothers your face with the girth of their chest or stomachs, it will suck. You really can not breath then. You'll have your face sat on. You'll have your gi pulled over your face which just make breathing harder. If it's just a one time thing for you, then great, but don't expect it to just be only this one time.



The only reason why I was panicking so much was because I was unable to tap despite reaching my pain limit. I expect that I will be put in worse moves but I will not panic as I can just tap out.

I'm not even sure it would be classified as tunnel vision. I was trying hard to tap out for a while, it was only when I realised that I couldn't when I started panicking. Either way, it's unlikely to happen again.


----------



## JP3

gpseymour said:


> Escapes don't have to be all that explosive to work against someone that size. A small shift gains a lot of leverage, and then you can control the rest smoothly.


Completely agree, but at the risk of sounding uppity &/or condescending to James, which I'm not trying to be, maybe his skill level isn't there yet.  You could do it, most likely I could, lots of skilled people know how to work the situation, but keep in mind, James let a 12 y/o get both hands around his neck, tight enough that he was unable to talk. That happened to you on the ground recently?

As I said, james, that sounds crappy, which I don't intend. Mistakes get made on the mat all the time, by everyone, me included. I'll bet ya one thing, I bet you're moving earlier next time that anyone has their hands approaching your neck, eh?  That is a VERY good lesson to internalize.


----------



## JP3

james0012 said:


> The only reason why I was panicking so much was because I was unable to tap despite reaching my pain limit. I expect that I will be put in worse moves but I will not panic as I can just tap out.
> 
> I'm not even sure it would be classified as tunnel vision. I was trying hard to tap out for a while, it was only when I realised that I couldn't when I started panicking. Either way, it's unlikely to happen again.



Not being able to tap out can show up in a lot of ways... the most common is that the technique being used on you takes place before you have the time you need to realize that it is too late. Less common, and somewhat what happened in your O/P was when the limb you reflexively use to tap is held/constrained... or as in this case, ignored.  That's a risk of working with beginners as well, some are very talented naturally, some are just crazy lucky, and either of them can put a hurtin' on ya.

But, I think you're right, for a group of reasons, I bet this doesn't, or things anything like it, ever happen again.


----------



## james0012

JP3 said:


> Completely agree, but at the risk of sounding uppity &/or condescending to James, which I'm not trying to be, maybe his skill level isn't there yet..



Oh don't worry about that, it's obvious that you're speaking with good intentions. I haven't run into that kind of attitude and the gym handled it well.



JP3 said:


> You could do it, most likely I could, lots of skilled people know how to work the situation, but keep in mind, James let a 12 y/o get both hands around his neck, tight enough that he was unable to talk. That happened to you on the ground recently?
> 
> As I said, james, that sounds crappy, which I don't intend. Mistakes get made on the mat all the time, by everyone, me included. I'll bet ya one thing, I bet you're moving earlier next time that anyone has their hands approaching your neck, eh?  That is a VERY good lesson to internalize.



There was a lack of skill in the build up to the choke, I was definitely sparring complacently. And from then on, he won fair and squareish. I still feel like the continous gagging should have been good enough indication to let go but I'm not going to blame an 11 year old for something he wasn't taught.



JP3 said:


> Less common, and somewhat what happened in your O/P was when the limb you reflexively use to tap is held/constrained... or as in this case, ignored.



It wouldn't be fair to say ignored. He just didn't realise that I was tapping with my feet. He probably didn't realise that my hands were constrained.



JP3 said:


> But, I think you're right, for a group of reasons, I bet this doesn't, or things anything like it, ever happen again.



You see, 2 months in and I'm already breaking new grounds.


----------



## JP3

James, in Muay Thai class, in the dim annals of my history, they guy who was sort of the assistant instructor (guy started in Muay Thai after 20 years as a Golden Gloves boxing instructor... who does that?) had a saying:  Anybody can get caught. Don't get uppity.  It's true. All one has to do  to understand that is to go back and review surprising victories in combat sports over the last 40 years to find shining examples of, "That guy go SO lucky ..."

On the 11 year old not knowing what gagging sounds are.... Man you're making me laugh at anecdotal stuff I can write about which is only consisten in thread because it's funny - to anyone who wasn't IN it -- I am wondering if that kid wasn't scared brownypants to be rolling with a guy your size int he first place. Then, somehow (to him) he finds himself in a position of advantage and his whole world focuses down into keeping that grip and if he can do anything, make it tighter (a different form of tunnel vision, eh...).

Well... probably freak out took place while you were out for those few seconds with and by everyone who was Not unconscious, and by the time you revived to ... er ... sobriety, they were relatively back to normal. I think that quite a few very good lessons were learned on that mat during that sequence. Your own, we've beaten up in this thread  and your attitude shows it's stuck.  Sorry about the neat-O turtleneck bruising.... really I am. Closest I can compare is I was passing my instructor's guard once, and was working my way from side control into a mount/front choke (baseball grip) and he was blocking my elbow with his elbow and I kept coming, pressure increasing, pressure increasing and then all of the sudden our arms slipped off of each other and Wham! All that potential energy converted in a fraction of a second into kinetic energy whih accelerated... and ended up with his elbow being blocked by my face. My suborbital arch (cheekbone) as it happens.  Distinct cracking sound emanated from the impact.

I found myself on my back, him crouched over me. "You OK?"  Me: "I think we broke my face."

We hadn't, the X-rays showed. But I got a nifty set of double black eyes which I sported for nearly a month before all the interesting colors faded back to normal.

Ah well... we both learned something that day, probably more than one each, once set physical, the other set... background mental I guess you'd call it.


----------



## james0012

JP3 said:


> James, in Muay Thai class, in the dim annals of my history, they guy who was sort of the assistant instructor (guy started in Muay Thai after 20 years as a Golden Gloves boxing instructor... who does that?) had a saying:  Anybody can get caught. Don't get uppity.  It's true. All one has to do  to understand that is to go back and review surprising victories in combat sports over the last 40 years to find shining examples of, "That guy go SO lucky ..."
> 
> On the 11 year old not knowing what gagging sounds are.... Man you're making me laugh at anecdotal stuff I can write about which is only consisten in thread because it's funny - to anyone who wasn't IN it -- I am wondering if that kid wasn't scared brownypants to be rolling with a guy your size int he first place. Then, somehow (to him) he finds himself in a position of advantage and his whole world focuses down into keeping that grip and if he can do anything, make it tighter (a different form of tunnel vision, eh...).
> 
> Well... probably freak out took place while you were out for those few seconds with and by everyone who was Not unconscious, and by the time you revived to ... er ... sobriety, they were relatively back to normal. I think that quite a few very good lessons were learned on that mat during that sequence. Your own, we've beaten up in this thread  and your attitude shows it's stuck.  Sorry about the neat-O turtleneck bruising.... really I am. Closest I can compare is I was passing my instructor's guard once, and was working my way from side control into a mount/front choke (baseball grip) and he was blocking my elbow with his elbow and I kept coming, pressure increasing, pressure increasing and then all of the sudden our arms slipped off of each other and Wham! All that potential energy converted in a fraction of a second into kinetic energy whih accelerated... and ended up with his elbow being blocked by my face. My suborbital arch (cheekbone) as it happens.  Distinct cracking sound emanated from the impact.
> 
> I found myself on my back, him crouched over me. "You OK?"  Me: "I think we broke my face."
> 
> We hadn't, the X-rays showed. But I got a nifty set of double black eyes which I sported for nearly a month before all the interesting colors faded back to normal.
> 
> Ah well... we both learned something that day, probably more than one each, once set physical, the other set... background mental I guess you'd call it.



I'm not trying to be uppity. He won, perhaps if we sparred again he would win again. I'm just saying that I wasn't sparring to my full potential on the build up to the mount. That doesn't diminish his win. His groundwork was superior, he had the strength to shimmy to a higher mount and pin me and then the skill to maintain it to set up the choke irrelevant if the pin was aided by luck.

I expect the reverse tunnel vision is what happened, even though I cannot imagine why since I have the friendliest face going. I have this weird ability where any baby placed in front of me laughs and you don't understand just how many stray cats have followed me home (and occasionally kept). But yes, I could see how it would be intimidating. It's out of his comfort zone and the height difference is probably over a foot. I would have been scared at his age as well. Actually, at his age I would probably be playing dungeons and dragons, shying away from all physical activities.

There were no freak outs, my instructor was calm and handled the situation well. The kid was a little freaked out but was soon laughing about it, my dad jokes are advanced now. I told him that he should have kept the hold for longer as my sinuses were beginning to clear, which actually was kind of true lol. Sinuses were blocked all day up until then. So I guess there's something I learned, if your nose is ever blocked, forget nasal spray this is where it's at.

Black eyes suck, I had one back in my scandalous days and the amount of "what happened?" questions you get is unreal, worse than the actual injury. It's fun to play around with that (responding by telling them the first rule of fight club eg.) but I think every person I walked into asked me, some even asking twice and it got so annoying.

Well anyway thank you, I have learned things! There's a lot of experts here to do that. Good luck with your own sparring future.


----------



## FriedRice

james0012 said:


> He had two hands around my throat pretty tightly, I couldn't speak. I did try to buck but I couldn't get any head leverage and could only move my legs.



He "rape choked" you, lol.


----------



## james0012

FriedRice said:


> He "rape choked" you, lol.



I thought we all agreed on The Hollywood Psycho choke?


----------



## james0012

Edit: Oops, thought I was editing my last post but turned out I created another one. I'm an idiot!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> Edit: Oops, thought I was editing my last post but turned out I created another one. I'm an idiot!


I wanted to click "agree" on that, but you don't know me well enough yet to know how much I entertain myself by agreeing when people say that about themselves.


----------



## james0012

gpseymour said:


> I wanted to click "agree" on that, but you don't know me well enough yet to know how much I entertain myself by agreeing when people say that about themselves.



I here you, I do that all the time as well stranger or not! Probably why I need to improve my BJJ haha.

Edit: I'm just going to leave that misspelled 'here' for irony.


----------



## Tony Dismukes

JP3 said:


> All one has to do to understand that is to go back and review surprising victories in combat sports over the last 40 years to find shining examples of, "That guy go SO lucky ..."



Renzo Gracie after knocking out Oleg Taktarov: _"People say I got lucky. Maybe I did. All I know is, the more I train, the luckier I get_."


----------



## james0012

Update! Sorry about reviving an old thread but I thought it would be better than just starting a new one with this one still visible.

Anyway, I went back to bjj on Saturday and decided to spar against the kid again (small class, didn't want any awkwardness).

So it was pretty even for the first half, we were both doing well but just couldn't get the sub. But in the second half, he dominated it and I wanted to get an opinion on what went wrong. I was in the mount and he was in the closed guard and he managed to turn me on my side. He just kept the guard until I tapped out, which took a long time and from then on I was quite tired.

So a lot of my stamina was gone and he got another unorthodox sub that I don't know the name of. It's the one where he's on his knees and I'm in a scissors facing towards his legs and also on my stomach. Then he got his third sub with a mounted triangle and his last with a headscissors where he was on his back and I was on my knees. So yeah, not a good second half.

So: A) How can I increase my stamina?
B) How do I get out of these moves?
C) Should I try to stay at the bottom so I don't get caught in his guards?
D) How do I spar against someone who is reliant on their leg strength? How can I take advantage of that?

Sorry for the long post, it's just disappointing to lose against beginners, especially when they're 11!


----------



## Steve

james0012 said:


> Update! Sorry about reviving an old thread but I thought it would be better than just starting a new one with this one still visible.
> 
> Anyway, I went back to bjj on Saturday and decided to spar against the kid again (small class, didn't want any awkwardness).
> 
> So it was pretty even for the first half, we were both doing well but just couldn't get the sub. But in the second half, he dominated it and I wanted to get an opinion on what went wrong. I was in the mount and he was in the closed guard and he managed to turn me on my side. He just kept the guard until I tapped out, which took a long time and from then on I was quite tired.
> 
> So a lot of my stamina was gone and he got another unorthodox sub that I don't know the name of. It's the one where he's on his knees and I'm in a scissors facing towards his legs and also on my stomach. Then he got his third sub with a mounted triangle and his last with a headscissors where he was on his back and I was on my knees. So yeah, not a good second half.
> 
> So: A) How can I increase my stamina?
> B) How do I get out of these moves?
> C) Should I try to stay at the bottom so I don't get caught in his guards?
> D) How do I spar against someone who is reliant on their leg strength? How can I take advantage of that?
> 
> Sorry for the long post, it's just disappointing to lose against beginners, especially when they're 11!


It's really hard to visualize some of these situations you find yourself in.  I don't think you've been training long enough to fully understand the positions you're in.  For example, you can't have your opponent in mount while also being in his closed guard.  The two are mutually exclusive. 

That having been said, here are my suggestions (given how long you have been training):

So: A) How can I increase my stamina?  Keep training. 
B) How do I get out of these moves?  Keep training, and mind your posture.  When you're in someone's closed guard, and they're squeezing the life out of you, maintain good posture and then practice your techniques for making them open their guard.  
C) Should I try to stay at the bottom so I don't get caught in his guards?  Keep training, and it's okay to have a plan for what you'd like to try and do in sparring.  However, you need to learn both. 
D) How do I spar against someone who is reliant on their leg strength? How can I take advantage of that?  You need to keep training.  Step one, open the guard.  Step two, pass the guard.


----------



## james0012

Steve said:


> It's really hard to visualize some of these situations you find yourself in.  I don't think you've been training long enough to fully understand the positions you're in.  For example, you can't have your opponent in mount while also being in his closed guard.  The two are mutually exclusive.
> 
> That having been said, here are my suggestions (given how long you have been training):
> 
> So: A) How can I increase my stamina?  Keep training.
> B) How do I get out of these moves?  Keep training, and mind your posture.  When you're in someone's closed guard, and they're squeezing the life out of you, maintain good posture and then practice your techniques for making them open their guard.
> C) Should I try to stay at the bottom so I don't get caught in his guards?  Keep training, and it's okay to have a plan for what you'd like to try and do in sparring.  However, you need to learn both.
> D) How do I spar against someone who is reliant on their leg strength? How can I take advantage of that?  You need to keep training.  Step one, open the guard.  Step two, pass the guard.



Sorry, I think what I meant to say was that I was in the top position and he had the guard. And none of the techniques for opening the guard were working for which I've had successes in the past.


----------



## Steve

james0012 said:


> Sorry, I think what I meant to say was that I was in the top position and he had the guard. And none of the techniques for opening the guard were working for which I've had successes in the past.


When someone has really strong legs, you will need good technique.   Here's the thing.  Nothing works every time.  Just keep at it. 

And truly, it's no problem to mix up the words.  I figured out what you meant.  I really just want to make the point that you are really, really new at this.  Cut yourself some slack and just go and do your best.  And personally, I would recommend you keep sparring with that kid.  It sounds like he's challenging you, which is a good thing.


----------



## kuniggety

The beginning of BJJ is so frustrating. You don't know your head from your *** and will get tapped over and over. Steve is right in that you just have to keep training. There's no substitute for it. I remember when I was about 6 mo in and a new while belt starts and asked when he'll start tapping people. He was a smaller guy. I said how he's in a room full of people more experienced than him and many of us, myself included, had a bit more weight to put behind our techniques. Just worry about survival. 6 months to a year down the road you'll find yourself hanging with the more experienced guys and another guy will be the new guy and they'll seem "easy" to you. 

For stubborn closed guards, standing passes seem to work better for me. It takes work to get up. The key is maintaining your base. You can slide one knee between you as you drop your weight back down. The other is do a motion like you're reaching into your back pocket and then guiding or flipping their leg off of you.


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## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> Sorry, I think what I meant to say was that I was in the top position and he had the guard. And none of the techniques for opening the guard were working for which I've had successes in the past.


I think the term is that you were "inside his guard". Steve, am I remembering that right?


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## Tony Dismukes

gpseymour said:


> I think the term is that you were "inside his guard". Steve, am I remembering that right?


That is correct.


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## james0012

Steve said:


> When someone has really strong legs, you will need good technique.   Here's the thing. Nothing works every time. Just keep at it.
> 
> And truly, it's no problem to mix up the words. I figured out what you meant. I really just want to make the point that you are really, really new at this. Cut yourself some slack and just go and do your best. And personally, I would recommend you keep sparring with that kid. It sounds like he's challenging you, which is a good thing.



I appreciate the advice, man. I think I'm used to seeing big improvements with new sports straight away (except basketball, never play bball unless you're 6'6) and with bjj you only see little moments of improvement which gets frustrating.



kuniggety said:


> For stubborn closed guards, standing passes seem to work better for me. It takes work to get up. The key is maintaining your base. You can slide one knee between you as you drop your weight back down. The other is do a motion like you're reaching into your back pocket and then guiding or flipping their leg off of you.



I'll try it out, haven't attempted a standing pass yet and definitely haven't got a niche (did I use that word right?) for my passing yet.


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## Steve

james0012 said:


> I appreciate the advice, man. I think I'm used to seeing big improvements with new sports straight away (except basketball, never play bball unless you're 6'6) and with bjj you only see little moments of improvement which gets frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try it out, haven't attempted a standing pass yet and definitely haven't got a niche (did I use that word right?) for my passing yet.


Think about it this way.  Every time you roll with a training partner, you get a little better and they get a little better.  While there are a lot of things that contribute to improvement, at the very basic level, you're all improving.  So, you won't see a lot of improvement because you're trying to pass your partner's guard and every tmie you try you get a little better.  He also gets a little better at defending. 

Stick with it.  What's going to happen is, somewhere in between 3 and 6 months of training, some new guys are going to join the school and you'll be sparring with them. All of a sudden, things you've been trying to do for months actually work. 

Point is, you aren't seeing your improvement,  But you are.  Guaranteed.


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## Gerry Seymour

james0012 said:


> I appreciate the advice, man. I think I'm used to seeing big improvements with new sports straight away (except basketball, never play bball unless you're 6'6) and with bjj you only see little moments of improvement which gets frustrating.
> 
> 
> 
> I'll try it out, haven't attempted a standing pass yet and definitely haven't got a niche (did I use that word right?) for my passing yet.


You probably won't notice the improvements until - as someone said - a few months down the road when a new person joins and you realize they are easy to deal with. Or when you start thinking the guys ahead of you are all having "off" days, because they aren't tapping you out as often as they usually do.


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## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> A) How can I increase my stamina?


Keep training. The more you roll, the easier it gets. This is not just about physiological adaptations to increase your cardio - it's also about psychological adaptations so you relax, keep breathing, and don't waste energy.



james0012 said:


> B) How do I get out of these moves?



Your teacher can show you details about how to escape the individual positions you mentioned. You're not really describing them clearly enough for me to give you a detailed counter. Best approach is to not get in them in the first place. When you are in someone's guard, focus establishing a solid base and good posture first. After that, fight for superior grips. It doesn't matter what kind of guard pass you try, it won't work if you have bad base, bad posture, and inferior grips.



james0012 said:


> C) Should I try to stay at the bottom so I don't get caught in his guards?


Nope. Top position is better. You'll get plenty of practice being put on the bottom anyway.



james0012 said:


> D) How do I spar against someone who is reliant on their leg strength? How can I take advantage of that?



Use your entire body. Start with base, posture, and grips.



james0012 said:


> it's just disappointing to lose against beginners, especially when they're 11!



Remember that you are pretty much a complete beginner yourself. Of course you're going to lose to other beginners.


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## james0012

Going to change sparring partners, I think he had something like 5 tap outs in 5 minutes before stopping and asking if he could practice and _teach_ drills (he's had about 5 lessons) to save me the embarrassment of going for another 10 minutes but just made it so much worse. It came from the right place (I think) but it was just cringey. 90% of his 'teaching' was gym-related and he said at one point to "squat bigger weights". What's worse is that I couldn't even get a damn tap out in the drills!

Anyway, I've probably complained about this poor kid too much here. Thanks again!



Tony Dismukes said:


> Use your entire body. Start with base, posture, and grips.



Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I've never properly understood what base meant. Is that just referring to balance?


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## Tony Dismukes

james0012 said:


> Sorry if this is a stupid question, but I've never properly understood what base meant. Is that just referring to balance?


Pretty much. It refers to the proper body positioning and structure which allows you to have good balance in a given situation. Your instructor should be able to advise you on what your proper base and posture should look like when you are sitting in someone's guard and should be able to correct all the little things that you don't even realize you are doing wrong. None of your guard passes are going to work until you can establish solid base and good posture.


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## Buka

Base is everything. In stand up fighting as well. It's the rock the church is built on.

As said in that song...._It's all about the base, about the base_. And you thought they were saying "bass".


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