# what is the main root of MA



## Manny

I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?

Manny


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## Monadnock

I've read India as a main source. I'm not sure of man's pre-historic migration patterns, but there is credit given to one dude from India who taugh the Chinese, and China has had influence on Japan, Korea and Okinawa. Not that there were no indiginous systems in those parts -- fighting styles seem to just develop rather naturally no matter where you are. But there are traceable roots from India, like Chuan Fa > Gung fu > Kempo. That's skipping a lot of generations, but hopefully that helps.


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## WMKS Shogun

This should be posted in General Martial Arts discussion, not in Korean Martial arts. However, I will give an answer as well since I am not a Moderator and cannot move this to the appropriate forum.
     Many martial arts developed out of necessity WHERE EVER they were needed. Each culture has its own martial arts. Eastern Martial arts tend to be more codified and standardized, but any country or land that has ever existed where people were forced to defend themselves has had some sort of martial arts. Eastern Martial arts seem to have come to China via India (according to the legends) and then spread from China to Okinawa, Korea, and Japan, (Vietnam, Thailand, etc.) where they mixed with the native fighting methods and became the arts we know today. This is a massive oversimplification, but it should help shed some light.


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## Xue Sheng

Manny said:


> I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?
> 
> Manny


 
It depends on the MA you are talking about but from the list you have given it would be China. 

Example
Sumo is indigenous to Japan. 

Shuaijiao originated in China no Indian influence. 

Likely Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi indigenous to China.

Part of the historical definition of Internal and External Chinese martial arts is whether it came from inside China or outside of China. Shaolin allegedly comes from Da Mo who was from India.


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## exile

The problem is, how much plausibility do you want? We have enormous amounts of evidence that legendary history comports very poorly with real history, but you don't need illustrations of this kind to see just how little credibility we can put in oft-told tales about what happened thousands of years ago. Just ask yourself, exactly what were the different Kwans teaching in Korea in the mid-1950s? What were their training methods, what was their attitude towards hyungs, what kind of sparring did they do? We know almost nothing about answers to these questions, in fact, a point emphasized in Doug Cooks new book on TKD. So even as recently as 50 years back, we're still in the dark about the _content_ of the KMAs. Or take lineages: check out some of the various threads in the Kempo or Ninjutsu fora to get some idea of just how tangled and controversial some of the lineage claims made by various individuals in those MAs is. And again, we're talking about events in living memory! Now extrapolate that uncertainty back of scores of generations, bearing in mind that legends, as the folklorists tell us, are usually charters intended to back up current social arrangements or claims to legitimacy, and I think it's pretty clear that where you don't have secure documentation, you can't claim even plausibility, let along knowledge.

As far as the legend of Bhoddhidharma is concerned, for example, we can't be sure that the dude even existed in the first place. What to make of the story that he removed his own eyelids to keep himself from falling asleep while meditating:

_Another more dramatic story attributes the origin of tea to the founder of Zen Buddhism Bhodhidharma. Bhodhidharma traveled to China from India to teach Buddhism. When he arrived he went straight to a Shao-lin temple and sat in front of a wall to meditate on the best way to pass on his teachings in this unfamiliar culture. According to legend, he remained there for nine years. However, in the sixth year he became drowsy and fell momentarily asleep. Upon awakening, to ensure that this did not happen again, he cut off his own eyelids so his eyes could no longer close. Where his eyelids fell the Chinese goddess, Quan Yin, caused tea trees to sprout._

(http://www.immortalitea.com/tea history.htm)

Do you believe that? Or even that he meditated for nine years nonstop in front of a wall?  Do we _know_ that he visited the Shaolin Temple on that famous occasion? Much less the martial _content_ of what he supposedly taught the monks? _There is no documentation for any of this._ So, in view of the examples I gave earlier, what is the likelihood that some piece of esoteric historical information survived, accurate and intact, two millenia?

The question, `Where did MAs originate', seems to me to be like the question, `Where did language originate'. Language is a human cognitive ability based on very unique neural wiring that no other species possesses. Is it likely that our ancestors who developed this wiring in the course of their evolution were sitting around, mute, maybe communicating by gesturestheir biological capacity for language in place, all dressed up but with nowhere to go until some single ancestral language that was actually spoken `moved in' from one particular place in the world and got all those loaded cortexes firing? A single point of origin for MA is just as unlikely. People fight. Over time, and a lot of fighting, they discover what works better and what worse. A body of knowledge begins to accumulate, and you get fighting systems as parts of cultural knowledge. Contact with other groups leads to modifications, exchanges of information, adaptations. It's like that with everything. Why would we expect the MAs to be any different? The bottom line is, there isn't a single shred of evidence for any particular place being the origin of `the martial arts'. It's hard enough to provide historically reliable account about how they got started where we find them!


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## tellner

People have been fighting since before we came down out of the trees. They've been practicing it for about as long. There has been systematized wrestling and training in the use of weapons as far back as we have records. The Vedas speak of training in archery. Old Cretan, Egyptian and Sumerian pictures and writing refer to military training and wrestling with what appears to be coaching. 

Martial arts are universal. There is no single source unless you're willing to include the Olduvai Gorge.

"OK, Ook. Pick up big rock. Hit Thag with big rock. No let Thag hit you with pointy stick."


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## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> People have been fighting since before we came down out of the trees. They've been practicing it for about as long. There has been systematized wrestling and training in the use of weapons as far back as we have records. The Vedas speak of training in archery. Old Cretan, Egyptian and Sumerian pictures and writing refer to military training and wrestling with what appears to be coaching.
> 
> Martial arts are universal. There is no single source unless you're willing to include the Olduvai Gorge.
> 
> "OK, Ook. Pick up big rock. Hit Thag with big rock. No let Thag hit you with pointy stick."


 
um... it wasn't ook it was og and ook was who og hit Thag was the name og gave his rock and you had the birth of Thag style.... Sheesh...for crying out loud.... get it right :uhyeah:


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## Andrew Green

Fighting is a natural skill, its always been there.  There was no one day when someone suddenly realised, "Hey! I can hurt things, I should make a system!"

Trying to track the first martial art would be like trying to track the first language.  There is no start date, there was cross over, influence, independent development and a gradual progression of ups and downs to where we are now.


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## JBrainard

For some strange reason I thought that the HEROIC Cynical Curmudgeons would gravitate to this thread.


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## bushidomartialarts

Tellner, you know as well as anybody that Ook is traditionally practiced only by Orangutans....

Martial arts probably developed like language, music and religion.  They're universal, part of our nature as humans.  Now, in some societies they were developed more formally and/or given more significance (which is why Asian martial arts have a more stylized and ritualized tradition as opposed to, say, boxing or savate).  But you'll find fighting styles/arts/sciences developed all over the place.

To be fair, though, I think the OP was asking about what most people mean when they say 'martial arts'.  They're not thinking about boxing, or n'golo or aborigine bush spearfighting techniques.  They're talking about smallish yellow men in funny pajamas.  I've always understood that this particular set of traditions came out of India, through China and thus to the rest of the world.

But that's hard to prove and most of the details are likely to be apocryphal, outright propaganda, or both.


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## Kacey

*Attention all users:

Thread moved to General Martial Arts Talk to generate more responses.

-Karen Cohn
-MT Senior Administrator
*


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## chinto01

I know I will just be repeating what others have said but every society has had some sort of fighting arts since the beginning. All societies have also codified them and passed them on in several different ways. Wether it be folk dances, or actual training drills. The asian arts can be traced back to Turkey, India, China, Korea, Okinawa, and Japan. if you could be more specific in your inquiry it would help.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## Andrew Green

bushidomartialarts said:


> I've always understood that this particular set of traditions came out of India, through China and thus to the rest of the world.



But isn't there also some evidence that India may have had a good deal of influence from Greece in this regard, from when Alexander invaded and brought Greek boxing, wrestling and pankration?


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## terryl965

Andrew Green said:


> But isn't there also some evidence that India may have had a good deal of influence from Greece in this regard, from when Alexander invaded and brought Greek boxing, wrestling and pankration?


 

Andrew I beleive you are right with this.


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## Touch Of Death

Manny said:


> I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?
> 
> Manny


There is no source. Put two dogs in a cage and you have a war. As long as there have been people, they have had War. The experienced teach the inexperienced. While India may be old, it ain't that old. There have been other civilizations before it, and it would stand to reason they had martial arts.
Sean


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## Shotgun Buddha

Martial Arts, as in fighting systems, evolved wherever there was fighting.
Martial Arts, in there modern format, evolved wherever there was profit.


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## Last Fearner

Manny said:


> waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?


 
I'll answer this, but it probably won't be the answer you were looking for.

My answer is that it comes from the heart. Techniques come from the head, and experience in combat. The will to succeed in combat and in self defense comes from the spirit - - the warriors spirit. Warriors have existed for hundreds of thousands of years in virtually every culture that has survived, and most that have not.

However, the Martial Art began when the ability to fight and destroy your enemy was joined with the desire not to. There is nothing unique about fighting, and the ability to win in battle is merely a blend of enhanced skill, fortunate timing, and perhaps some luck. The warriors of old were concerned with death, and killing their enemy. The Martial Artist became unique because of the value placed on life, and the preference to preserve rather than destroy life. Justice, honor, honesty, integrity, and self control became the defining qualities of the Martial Art.  Without them, all you have is Martial Combat - - Mortal Combat - - fighting.

There is no one place, time, or person to precisely identify its origin, but I will say that to simply identify the nature of humans to survive, fight, or become aggressive and conquer others is a very crude, basic, and inaccurate interpretation which is not different and unique enough to say this was, or is the Martial *ART*! This is my definition. Reject it if you will, but anyone can fight, and those who win consistently are nothing more than good fighters. A Martial Artist controls himself first, and then others through wisdom more than might.

CM D.J. Eisenhart


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## Cirdan

Last Fearner said:


> There is nothing unique about fighting, and the ability to win in battle is merely a blend of enhanced skill, fortunate timing, and perhaps some luck. The warriors of old were concerned with death, and killing their enemy.


 
hmm.. *The Art of War *anyone?


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## LawDog

The martial arts of today has evolved from the basic human instinct to survive. This comes not from anyone location but from all.


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## Adept

Last Fearner said:


> to simply identify the nature of humans to survive, fight, or become aggressive and conquer others is a very crude, basic, and inaccurate interpretation which is not different and unique enough to say this was, or is the Martial *ART*! This is my definition.



Well, as you say this is your definition. However, I don't think it is the most common, nor most accurate one. I could define an apple as a low platform with four legs, arm rests and back support (otherwise known as a chair), but that wouldn't make it a _good_ definition.



> anyone can fight, and those who win consistently are nothing more than good fighters.



I would define the martial arts as any codified collection of fighting techniques, bound by an overiding strategy. As such, they would have begun with the very first human conflicts.


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## exile

JBrainard said:


> For some strange reason I thought that the HEROIC Cynical Curmudgeons would gravitate to this thread.



And we didn't disappoint you, _did_ we, JB! :angel:


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## Brian R. VanCise

People have been learning how to protect there families, tribes, cities, etc. since the beginning.  Martial skills have always been important to provide safety to any and every group.  I do not think you can say it started anywhere in particular but that every group, culture, etc. has had a form of martial arts and trained in it.  Some became more codified (east asian martial arts) and were still trained regularly even when the tools changed. (ie. firearms)  Other's drifted or were no longer used and therefore disappeared with the advance in technology.  Bottom line I do not think you can find an origional source but instead many sources.  That is what makes it beautiful because of all of the variety.


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## MJS

Manny said:


> I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?
> 
> Manny


 
I believe the OP was asking for a geographical area or areas in which the various arts out there have generated.  We have a thread here to discuss the ethics of the arts.


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## Sukerkin

> And we didn't disappoint you, did we, JB!




Nope, you chaps didn't disappoint.  Excellent and interesting posts as ever :rei:.

Sadly, also as it seems destined ever to be, I was unable to hand out rep as deserved {I swear those Gnomes are getting even more churlish :lol:}.


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## exile

MJS said:


> I believe the OP was asking for a geographical area or areas in which the various arts out there have generated.  We have a thread here to discuss the ethics of the arts.



Quite right, Mark. The OPer is clearly employing the common usage of `martial art' as systematic fighting system, and in that normal sense of the term, we wouldn't expect to find a single point of origin for something as built-into human society as combat. I'm not saying that it's part of human nature to fightthere are societies that have been described (in Amazonia, for example) where physical conflict was considered completely unacceptable, almost nonhuman; but the _capacity_ to fight is clearly inborn, and actualized in most cultures. 

The thing is, we tend to be unhappy, for some reason, with accounts that involve multiple, independent orgins for certain things, and MAs seem to be one of them. I'm not sure why. We don't assume, for example, that dance arose at a single point in space and time and then diffused out to the rest of the world. Or toymaking, or any number of other activities. I'm not sure why there is so much concern with `the' origin of MA... could it just be a large scale version of the lineage preoccupations that seem to afflict so many MAists? Sort of the BIG lineage question? The thing is, lineage issues seem to be associated with legitimacy questions, but the search for the Ur-MA doesn't strike me as involving legitimacy... :idunno:



Sukerkin said:


> Sadly, also as it seems destined ever to be, I was unable to hand out rep as deserved {I swear those Gnomes are getting even more churlish :lol:}.



It's OK, Mark, it's ever the thought that counts.... and as you may've noticed, some of us are a bit less encumbered in that respect at the moment...


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## Brother John

Manny said:


> I was wondering, we have chinesse MA, Japanese MA, Korean MA,Vietnamese MA, etc,etc. but waht's the real main root of the martial arts, I mean where it comes from?
> 
> Manny


Sort of like asking where food came from. 
Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc. 

As for the Asian martial arts: If you had to reach for a place of origin.... I'd have to say that you'll need to look to India!! Most places known for their combat arts had 'systems' for combat training already....but these were influenced by the older civilizations. The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia...and transformed into the oldest of Gung-Fu and other systems.....which were further disceminated throughout the Orient by monks and others. These systems were added too or greatly influenced the systems already found in the other countries..further molding them into systems of combat that we now enjoy.

Your Brother
John


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## Andrew Green

Brother John said:


> Sort of like asking where food came from.
> Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc.



So what you are saying is the oldest martial art is reall "Monkey Kung Fu"? :lol:


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## exile

Brother John said:


> Sort of like asking where food came from.
> Mankind has been fighting and struggling with each other since Cain & Able. (or Monkey 1 and Monkey 2 if you don't but the whole Gennisis thing) Martial Arts are about war, fighting...etc.
> 
> As for the Asian martial arts: If you had to reach for a place of origin.... I'd have to say that you'll need to look to India!! Most places known for their combat arts had 'systems' for combat training already....but these were influenced by the older civilizations. The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia...and transformed into the oldest of Gung-Fu and other systems.....which were further disceminated throughout the Orient by monks and others. These systems were added too or greatly influenced the systems already found in the other countries..further molding them into systems of combat that we now enjoy.
> 
> Your Brother
> John



The problem is, there's no documentary or archaeological reason to believe that the combat systems of India are any older than those of China. The Shang dynasty, China's second, is in excess of four thousand years old, and the Bronze Age Chinese armies of that time were already formidable, sophisticated fighters. If you say that the oldest martial arts are from X and diffused to Y, you are making a substantial factual claim. You say that `The systems of India are some of THE oldest, and I believe they were transplanted to China and other places throughout Asia'. Well, what is the evidence base for that belief&#8212;specifically, the belief/claim about (i) the respective ages of Indian and Chinese fighting systems and (ii) the actual spread of the former to the latter?


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## tellner

They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts. 

The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.


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## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts.
> 
> The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.


 
A bit 

Harappan Culture: From 2500 B.C. to 1600 B.C
Xia Dynasty China: 2100 to 1800 B.C or ca. 2000-1500 B.C
Shang Dynasty: 1700-1027 B.C.

But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg. 

The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it. 

If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts. 

Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy. 

So what came first the Chicken or the Egg?


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## tellner

Xue Sheng said:


> But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg.


That one's simple. 

If you're a Creationist it was the chicken. The Deity created all the animals. One of them was the chicken. 

If you lean towards Science it was the egg. Chickens evolved from their predecessors. Those predecessors all laid eggs. At some point you can say "This is the earliest thing which we can all agree was a chicken. It came from an egg. Ergo the egg came first. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum_."

Isn't MartialTalk great? Not only can you argue about who is the Supreme Grand Master of Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu, you can learn the answers to the Mysteries of the Ages 



> The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it.


 
Pre-frickin'-cisely. Even if one were older it says absolutely nothing about what influenced what. I was just trying to spoke someone's wheel a little bit.


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## exile

tellner said:


> They both had armies a long, long time ago. Ergo, they both had martial arts.
> 
> The Harrapan culture is certainly older than any civilization we know about in China. But we have no idea how much cultural influence it had on later India.





Xue Sheng said:


> If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts.
> 
> Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy.



As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examplesthe independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts,  I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources. 


You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?


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## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> That one's simple.
> 
> If you're a Creationist it was the chicken. The Deity created all the animals. One of them was the chicken.
> 
> If you lean towards Science it was the egg. Chickens evolved from their predecessors. Those predecessors all laid eggs. At some point you can say "This is the earliest thing which we can all agree was a chicken. It came from an egg. Ergo the egg came first. _Quod Erat Demonstrandum_."
> 
> Isn't MartialTalk great? Not only can you argue about who is the Supreme Grand Master of Billy Bob's Kenpo Ryu Bujutsu Ninja Fu, you can learn the answers to the Mysteries of the Ages


 
Huh, I just wanted mine scrambled with toast :uhyeah:

OK then which came first the creationist and scientist or the argument about it. 

Damn Chickens, who knew they were such philosophical being 




tellner said:


> Pre-frickin'-cisely. Even if one were older it says absolutely nothing about what influenced what. I was just trying to spoke someone's wheel a little bit.


 
I need to read stuff like this when I am running a low-grade fever more often. 

Pretty much if Calculus and pyramids can be developed by different people without any of them having knowledge of the other it would seem to follow that martial arts could very likely develop the same way.


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## Xue Sheng

OOPS.... and speaking of pyramids.... sorry about that, I really need to read what everyone has posted before I post.... I shall blame it on the fever.



exile said:


> As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examplesthe independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts, I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources.
> 
> 
> You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?


 
Completely agree


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## 10,000 Hit Combo

You guys are all wrong!  Chuck Norris came up with the martial arts one day while he was building the log cabin he was born in.  He also invented BBQ, swear words and cowboys.


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## exile

10 said:


> You guys are all wrong!  Chuck Norris came up with the martial arts one day while he was building the log cabin he was born in.  He also invented BBQ, swear words and cowboys.



I won't say anything to contradict. Chuck might find out and not like it, and then...


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## Touch Of Death

Xue Sheng said:


> A bit
> 
> Harappan Culture: From 2500 B.C. to 1600 B.C
> Xia Dynasty China: 2100 to 1800 B.C or ca. 2000-1500 B.C
> Shang Dynasty: 1700-1027 B.C.
> 
> But as I sit here reading through all in a slightly feverish state (sick today) I am beginning to think this discussion is much the same as which came first the Chicken or the egg.
> 
> The fact that the Harappan predates Xia really does not mean jack as to whether or not it influenced Chinese martial arts at all. This does not mean that the Harappan were not the first to develop a martial art but it also does not mean that they had any martial influence on China in any way shape or form. But they could have just as easily, but to be honest I tend to doubt it.
> 
> If Newton and Leibniz can come up with Calculus independently of each other and at the same time what is to say that is was not exactly the same with marital arts.
> 
> Some guy in India figures out a better way to put a smack down on his neighbor and exactly the same time a guy in China figures out a similar thing. Some guy in Greece figures out Pankration another guy in Mongolia figures out how to wrestle and some one in China comes up with the precursor to Shuaijiao. It is all about survival so I tend to feel it is highly unlikely it was started by one group or one guy.
> 
> So what came first the Chicken or the Egg?


(pictures egg smoking a cigarette) As for whom discovers something first. I've heared that somethings get simultaneously invented all the time. The telephone was just plain ready to be invented. The only argument is the patent date.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

exile said:


> As usual, my fellow HCCs have zeroed in on the crucial arguments and examplesthe independent discovery of the calculus by Newton and Leibnitz is a beaut, XS! The crucial lesson to take away from their posts, I believe, is that, as Tellner stresses, you cannot use relative ages of civilization to come to conclusion about the relationship between specific components of those two civilizations. If something works really well, and it's worth doing, then the odds are good it'll be discovered independently in different places at different times. You're an ancient civilization and you want to build tall? You don't have much choice: it's going to be a ziggurat or a pyramid, and the current state of the argument makes it pretty clear that the Aztecs and Maya invented the form of their pyramidal structures completely independently of Old World sources.
> 
> 
> You don't need modern anatomical knowledge to understand that the directions of mobility for the wrist or elbow are limited and that forcing either joint to travel in one of the other directions will cause.... pain. If Bruce Lee was correct that facts about skeletal anatomy and the nervous system mean there are only so many ways to move in to atttack someone and only so many ways to defend, then shouldn't we expect the same discoveries to be made repeatedly and independently?


They have found cocaine in ancient Egyptian Pyramids; so you never know if they had contact with eachother or not. The drug tade was alive and well.
Sean


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## Langenschwert

I hate it when people make all the good points before I get to post!  I'm sure the origins are lost in the mists of time.  Where there is conflict, there will be Martial Arts.  The more conflict there is, the faster they develop... like an arms race.

As a WMAer, I would _like_ to believe that Pankration was the grand-daddy of all MA, but really... to think that Asians didn't know how to fight until the Greeks came along is kind of silly.  Did the Pankrationists _influence_ their Eastern counterparts?  Maybe.  And maybe the Indians influenced the Greeks.

But the independant development is likely the best theory.  Simply taking a look at the stances of both German and Japanese swordsmanship seems to confirm that quite well.  As well as the similarity between Ringen and Jiu-Jutsu.  There was no German knight wandering Japan in the 1300's showing them swordsmanship and grappling, even though the arts are so similar it's spooky.

So I will go out on a limb and say that _I_ am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory. 

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## tellner

Touch Of Death said:


> (pictures egg smoking a cigarette)



...and the chicken is saying

"Of course you did. That's why I never do at all."


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## CuongNhuka

Martial Arts (in general) come from mans dislike and hatered of his fellow man. Until that is, some clever monk found out Martial Arts are a good from of mediation and phyiscal exercise. 
granted this a massive over simplification.


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## Langenschwert

CuongNhuka said:


> Until that is, some clever monk...


 
Or fencing master:


*I speak not against masters of defence indeed, they are to be honored, nor against the science, it is noble, and in my opinion to be preferred next to divinity, for as divinity preserves the soul from hell and the devil, so does this noble science defend the body from wounds & slaughter. And moreover, the exercising of weapons puts away aches, griefs, and diseases, it increases strength, and sharpens the wits. It gives a perfect judgement, it expels melancholy, choleric and evil conceits, it keeps a man in breath, perfect health, and long life. It is unto him that has the perfection thereof, a most friendly and comfortable companion when he is alone, having but only his weapon about him. It puts him out of fear, & in the wars and places of most danger, it makes him bold, hardy and valiant.*

-George Silver, 1598

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Xue Sheng

tellner said:


> ...and the chicken is saying
> 
> "Of course you did. That's why I never do at all."


 
I figured it out, assuming paleontologists are right.

Birds come from dinosaurs and some dinosaurs laid eggs so the Egg came first, possibly it was smoking, I'm not really sure of that, but it was most definitely, beyond any shadow of doubt that the egg came first.......



Maybe.


----------



## Steel Tiger

Just a few things I would like to add regarding some of the posts I have slowly been reading through.

It is very difficult to say how old a cultural group or civilisation is based on its archaeology.  The difficulty is in defining its beginning and end.  So when comparing cultures that occurred close together temporally it is difficult to say which is older.  As a result, it is difficult to see diffusion patterns.  This is further complicated by the fact that such patterns are rarely one-way, so what may appear to be moving from one culture to another may actually be moving in the opposite direction or even moving back along a path it has already traced.

Here's something to ponder regarding this subject.  The oldest known urban developments are Catal Huyuk in Turkey and Jericho in the Levant.  Could these be the origin of codified martial arts on the Eurasian super-continent?

The oldest 'martial art' I have encountered, that is a set of fighting techniques with a name attached, is from Egypt and is named after the god-thing Sebek.  Does this mean that Egypt is the source of codified martial arts? No I don't think so.  In the Mahabharata, the great Indian epic written in the second millenium BC, there are descriptions of individual and sets of techniques.  There are also things called sacred weapons which appear to require long periods of training and study to master.  Could these be martial arts?  Probably.  Given when the Mahabharata was written it is likely to be a much older oral transmission which might rival the Egyptian sources.  But as I said before it is difficult to say which is older.

Personally, I am of the belief that martial arts, in the form we know, have developed many times in different places.  Europe, Egypt, India, China, Japan, all have indigenous fighting arts that seem to be different to each other.  There are descriptions of codified fighting arts from Mexico, especially among the Aztecs where there are also warrior schools to train elite fighting men.  It is very unlikely that the mesoamerican cultures were influenced by any others.

One last thing I would like to point out is that I link codified fighting arts, what we generally call martial arts to urbanised cultures.  This is because these agricultural cultures have available free time.  Time that can be spent considering and developing the concepts and principles that make up a martial art.  Thus I tend to exclude sub-Saharan Africa as a source of codified martial arts because, apart from one or two possibilities, there are no urbanised cultures.


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## exile

Langenschwert said:


> I hate it when people make all the good points before I get to post!  I'm sure the origins are lost in the mists of time.  Where there is conflict, there will be Martial Arts.  The more conflict there is, the faster they develop... like an arms race.



If it works, and it serves a common human purpose, you can bank on it showing up independently in several places. Look, for example, at the technology used to erect the huge sarsen uprights at Stonehenge in the last building cyle. There's now very clear archaeological evidence for the method, involving shaped logs as rollers, pulley systems to get the masoned blocks onto the rollers, predug pits and a bunch of other things that take advantage of the relative frictionlessness of the wheel, the use of leverage to manipulate extremely heavy objects with relatively long axes, and so on. And this method, with locally different embellishment but virtually identical mechanics, was also used by the ancient Easter Islanders who put those enormous stone head sculptures up. There are only so many ways to manipulate something very big and heavy when you have relatively low populations and and only muscle power. And there seems to have been zip contact between the Easter Islanders and any population in Europe; the EIers were actually among the most isolated of the Oceanic groups. Over and over again, you see the same thing. There are certain resources and physical constraints, representing opportunities and limitations respectively. The solution space that arises from these two dimensions may be rather small. If so, look out for repeated independent discover of one or another of the few solutions available. I suspect the MAs, particularly the empty-handed kind, fall into that category...



Langenschwert said:


> As a WMAer, I would _like_ to believe that Pankration was the grand-daddy of all MA, but really... to think that Asians didn't know how to fight until the Greeks came along is kind of silly.  Did the Pankrationists _influence_ their Eastern counterparts?  Maybe.  And maybe the Indians influenced the Greeks.
> 
> But the independant development is likely the best theory.



Independent invention probably coexists quite happily with mutual influence. People independently come up with the same key idea, and since they share that idea as a kind of common ground, the somewhat different ways each group implements that key idea will be of interest to them. It's like,  if you and the gang over the hill have both independently discovered bicycles, then the shape and placement of their handlebars and how they solve the braking problem is going to be of interest to you and vice versa. But if they've dicovered roller skates instead, then you aren't going have much to say to each other of interest. In principle, one or the other group might adopt the other technology... but it's probably _more_ likely that instead, each group would make up an astonishingly large number of very insulting jokes and comments predicated on the stupidity of bicyles (if you're one of the roller skaters) or roller skates (if you're a cyclist). You know... `how many bicyclists does it take to change a light bulb' sort of thing. (And no, I'm not going to try to figure out what the punch line should be! :lol So you probably can have your cake and eat it to, in terms of contact vs. independent invention. 





Langenschwert said:


> Simply taking a look at the stances of both German and Japanese swordsmanship seems to confirm that quite well.  As well as the similarity between Ringen and Jiu-Jutsu.  There was no German knight wandering Japan in the 1300's showing them swordsmanship and grappling, even though the arts are so similar it's spooky.



The limits imposed by swinging a long blade and stabbing with the point of that blade are probably enough to explain most of the swordsmanship resemblances; similarly for the grappling MAs. It would be interesting to work out the space of possibilities in detail on a priori grounds; my guess would be that in neither case would there be an awful lot of alternatives. I _love_ it when I hear of cases like that. 



Langenschwert said:


> So I will go out on a limb and say that _I_ am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.



Mark.... think again. _PLEASE!_ Given all the moaning, griping and whingeing that MAists do about the MAs... do you want to be identified as the person all of them can _blame_ for whatever it is they don't like?? Talk about drawing a target and sticking your head in the bullseye... please reconsider!!!


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## Steel Tiger

Langenschwert said:


> So I will go out on a limb and say that _I_ am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
AHA!!  So it was you!  Damn you for getting me stuck in this cycle of study and practice, and study and practice, and study and practice...

By the way, my teacher is a big fan of George Silver and introduced a number of his ideas into his syllabus.


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## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> So I will go out on a limb and say that _I_ am the source of all martial arts, since it's just about as proveable as any other theory.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
so it WAS you..... you and I REALLY need to talk... :uhyeah:


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## Sukerkin

exile said:


> Mark.... think again. _PLEASE!_ Given all the moaning, griping and whingeing that MAists do about the MAs... do you want to be identified as the person all of them can _blame_ for whatever it is they don't like?? Talk about drawing a target and sticking your head in the bullseye... please reconsider!!!


 
ROFL

Just when we starting to get to know and like him too ... is it always the sensible seeming ones that go off the rails and have the roof fall in on them (and can I mix any more metaphors whilst I'm about it )?

Sorry to not have anything substantive to contribute at this time but I'm at work and have to type hastily (and think little ("No change there then!" choruses everyone )).


----------



## exile

Steel Tiger said:


> AHA!!  So it was you!  Damn you for getting me stuck in this cycle of study and practice, and study and practice, and study and practice...
> 
> By the way, my teacher is a big fan of George Silver and introduced a number of his ideas into his syllabus.





Xue Sheng said:


> so it WAS you..... you and I REALLY need to talk... :uhyeah:





Sukerkin said:


> ROFL
> 
> Just when we starting to get to know and like him too ... is it always the sensible seeming ones that go off the rails and have the roof fall in on them (and can I mix any more metaphors whilst I'm about it )?
> .



See?? See??!!! _Told_ you.... and this is just the beginning. And these chaps aren't even the real complainers. There are I few I can think of...

My advice: a quick retraction, with lots of `... surely you could tell I was joking...' type asides. Or maybe you should claim that you blacked out, and when you came to you found yourself in front of your computer monitor with a whole bunch of MT and e-mail messages you'd sent, and absolutely no memory of having sent _any_ of them. Whatever it is, do it _quickly...._


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## Xue Sheng

exile said:


> See?? See??!!! _Told_ you.... and this is just the beginning. And these chaps aren't even the real complainers. There are I few I can think of...
> 
> My advice: a quick retraction, with lots of `... surely you could tell I was joking...' type asides. Or maybe you should claim that you blacked out, and when you came to you found yourself in front of your computer monitor with a whole bunch of MT and e-mail messages you'd sent, and absolutely no memory of having sent _any_ of them. Whatever it is, do it _quickly...._


 

To late.... Langenschwert.... *HE'S* the one responsible for all this...... HE's the one responsible for ASHIDA KIM (to name only ONE)..... What were you thinking man?

We really need to talk.... oh and when we do.... NO swords allowed. :uhyeah:


----------



## Shaderon

No he's had it now, we've seen it and we've gotten it in writing.  It's ALL his fault.   

Right Lang, while we've got you here, I've got some VERY expensive Chiropractic and Physiotherapy sessions that I need to claim back and lots of sick time from injuries that I can prove are directly YOUR fault since you invented MA's.

I'm calling my lawyer now.

NO ONE beats him up before I sue him ok?


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## Langenschwert

Xue Sheng said:


> To late.... Langenschwert.... *HE'S* the one responsible for all this...... HE's the one responsible for ASHIDA KIM (to name only ONE)..... What were you thinking man?


 
But really... it wasn't my fault! See? ---> 



 


> We really need to talk.... oh and when we do.... NO swords allowed. :uhyeah:


 
Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time!  Here's your glove back.   Longswords at dawn. 

And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat!  Here is some footage of my last duel.  I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless.  I'm taller than I look here, though: 



 
Be warned!!! 

Best regards, 

-Mark


----------



## Shaderon

Langenschwert said:


> But really... it wasn't my fault! See? --->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time! Here's your glove back.  Longswords at dawn.
> 
> And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat! Here is some footage of my last duel. I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless. I'm taller than I look here, though:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be warned!!!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
You may be good in a fight, but is your lawyer good in the courtroom?

Post all the challenges and affermations you like Mark, I'm printing and saving each and every word.... Mwahahahahahaha


----------



## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> But really... it wasn't my fault! See? --->
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ah, but if that's a challenge to duel (what... my excuses don't get me off the hook????), I get to pick the weapons and the time! Here's your glove back.  Longswords at dawn.
> 
> And, being the source of all Martial Arts (and thus, apparently, time travel), I will be difficult to defeat! Here is some footage of my last duel. I was foolish enough to challenge, and was issued a Falchion, but prevailed nonetheless. I'm taller than I look here, though:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Be warned!!!
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
Impressive

Regardless

"You have insulted my family and the Shaolin temple"

And Choice of weapons.... What are you talking about... I train Chinese styles.... There are no choices

OK Chinese Dao and 40 paces..... of course the Dao is rather ineffective at 40 paces (But I can do a lot of Very cool looking flailing around with it) but SO BE IT.   :uhyeah:


----------



## Langenschwert

Shaderon said:


> You may be good in a fight, but is your lawyer good in the courtroom?


 
Lawyer?  Lawyer??????  Varlet, I scoff at such modern new-fangled legal artifice.  We shall have justice according to Swabian law, end engage in a Judicial Duel!!!  Doesn't that seem like fun?  Longsword, spears, funky shields... much better than a stuffy ol' courtroom!

Judicially,

-Mark


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## Langenschwert

Xue Sheng said:


> OK Chinese Dao and 40 paces


 
Pool noodles at one pace? 

-Mark


----------



## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> Lawyer? Lawyer?????? Varlet, I scoff at such modern new-fangled legal artifice. We shall have justice according to Swabian law, end engage in a Judicial Duel!!! Doesn't that seem like fun? Longsword, spears, funky shields... much better than a stuffy ol' courtroom!
> 
> Judicially,
> 
> -Mark


 
Actually Shaderon he has a point, it does sound much more exciting than a courtroom.... possibly not as safe, but definitely more exciting



Langenschwert said:


> Pool noodles at one pace?
> 
> -Mark


 
Ok you have chosen your weapon and it works for me.... you bring a pool noodle..... I'll bring a Dao :EG:


----------



## Last Fearner

Fear not, Langenschwert!  I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was *I* who started the whole Martial Art concept!

I am sure that the throng will be more than happy to turn their venom on me, and it will be done with greater ease, pleasure, and more serious intensity (probably because some would believe that I am serious-  )

You are now free, Langenschwert, to slip off into the shadows, and let the target fall on my head - - but do it quickly lest they remember your faux pas forever!
I will guard your retreat... :knight:


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## Xue Sheng

Last Fearner said:


> Fear not, Langenschwert! I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was *I* who started the whole Martial Art concept!
> 
> I am sure that the throng will be more than happy to turn their venom on me, and it will be done with greater ease, pleasure, and more serious intensity (probably because some would believe that I am serious-  )
> 
> You are now free, Langenschwert, to slip off into the shadows, and let the target fall on my head - - but do it quickly lest they remember your faux pas forever!
> I will guard your retreat... :knight:


Or he could take it as a challenge to his integrity and then I am off the hook in regards to the duel.


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## Langenschwert

Last Fearner said:


> Fear not, Langenschwert! I can take all the pressure and attention off of you by simply stating that you are wrong - - it was *I* who started the whole Martial Art concept!


 
Thank you for your most valiant offer, but I simply cannot shirk my responsibility as the progenitor of the combat arts.  A simple sojourn into the realm of etymology will prove that I am what I claim to be.  Hearken:

My name is Mark, which is derived from Mars, the Roman God of War.  Martial Arts means Arts of Mars.  As aforementioned, I also invented (will invent? Will have invented?  I ain't tellin'!) time travel, hence I posit that the persona of Mars is based on _ME_, thus negating temporal evidence against my suit. 

It's all my fault.  But it's not my fault that y'all chose to train.  Read _Illusions_ by Richard Bach.  Thou art thine own driving force.  Q.E.D.



> I will guard your retreat... :knight:


Retreat?  Retreat???  Perish the thought!  I would not fain depart the field of battle with nary a blow being struck.  A churl, varlet and yea even a cowardly cur would I then be.

Those that still beareth grievance against me may try my mettle hand-to-hand in the lists, on the duelling grounds or on the field of battle.  I shall await all comers with mine trusty longsword.  May your blades break and shields shatter, may your harness fail thee at thy uttermost need, and may thy widows and widowers find no surcease from grief at thy falling before me.

Thou challengest me at thine own great peril.  Tread carefully, fellow warriors, lest the Goddess of Chivalry lay thee low at my feet.

Martially,

-Mark


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## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> Thou challengest me at thine own great peril. Tread carefully, fellow warriors, lest the Goddess of Chivalry lay thee low at my feet.
> 
> Martially,
> 
> -Mark


 
But we are still talking pool noodle vs Dao correct? I of course have the Dao.


----------



## Langenschwert

Xue Sheng said:


> But we are still talking pool noodle vs Dao correct? I of course have the Dao.


 
That's in your own private dream world!  Unless I name my longsword "Pool Noodle", in which case, sure!  Though that's hardly an epic name for a sword.  Charlemagne had "Joyeuse", Arthur had "Excalibur", and then there's a whole boatload of sword names from my Viking ancestors.  

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Sukerkin

Langenschwert said:


> My name is Mark, which is derived from Mars, the Roman God of War. Martial Arts means Arts of Mars.


 
But, but, but ... so is *mine*!



Langenschwert said:


> As aforementioned, I also invented (will invent? Will have invented? I ain't tellin'!) time travel, hence I posit that the persona of Mars is based on _ME_, thus negating temporal evidence against my suit.


 
Ah, there you have the advantage of me, sirrah!  A mickle upon such farthing trickery :lol:.




Langenschwert said:


> Those that still beareth grievance against me may try my mettle hand-to-hand in the lists, on the duelling grounds or on the field of battle. I shall await all comers with mine trusty longsword. May your blades break and shields shatter, may your harness fail thee at thy uttermost need, and may thy widows and widowers find no surcease from grief at thy falling before me.
> 
> Thou challengest me at thine own great peril. Tread carefully, fellow warriors, lest the Goddess of Chivalry lay thee low at my feet.


 
Now that's a good taunt :tup:


----------



## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> That's in your own private dream world! Unless I name my longsword "Pool Noodle", in which case, sure! Though that's hardly an epic name for a sword. Charlemagne had "Joyeuse", Arthur had "Excalibur", and then there's a whole boatload of sword names from my Viking ancestors.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
That's it

"You have insulted my family and the Shaolin temple"

:uhyeah:


----------



## Last Fearner

Langenschwert said:


> My name is Mark, which is derived from Mars, the Roman God of War. Martial Arts means Arts of Mars.


 
Ahhhh, a compelling argument - but alas, I have a better one! My name is Eisenhart which is German for "Iron heart," and rhymes with "Martial Art." Thus, the very term "Martial Art" was derived from my name. My first name, Darwin, is after Charles Darwin for the origin of the species, for I AM the origin of all Martial Art (_I really hope no one is actually buying all this!  _)

Wait..... could we have simultaneously created the same thing at the same time in history? Perhaps you are a reincarnation of me, or I of you. Which came first, the Langenschwert, or the Eisenhart? Oh, the questions run too deep for such a simple man! :shrug: 



Langenschwert said:


> Read _Illusions_ by Richard Bach. Thou art thine own driving force.


 
What!?! Could this be!!? Another fan of Bach, and ILLUSIONS? :highfive: 

Last time I corresponded with him, I tried to urge him to go ahead with making ILLUSIONS into a movie (funding is the drawback, he says).

"Learning is finding out what you already know.
Doing is demonstrating that you know it.
Teaching is reminding others that they know just as well as you.

You are all learners, doers, teachers."  ~ Richard Bach: ILLUSIONS



Langenschwert said:


> Retreat? Retreat??? Perish the thought! I would not fain depart the field of battle with nary a blow being struck. A churl, varlet and yea even a cowardly cur would I then be.


 
I admire your courage (or at least your mock, pretense for the Illusion of bravery). Then perhaps we could stand and fight together - - back to back (just watch where you're swingin' that sword!) iratedan 

*"Brother to brother, yours in life and death."*:knight:


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

What a good thread, this topic can be discussed infinitely, sorta like that *WORD ASSOCIATION* thread...


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## Shaderon

Last Fearner said:


> I admire your courage (or at least your mock, pretense for the Illusion of bravery). Then perhaps we could stand and fight together - - back to back (just watch where you're swingin' that sword!) iratedan


 
You're right I'm calling off my Lawyer, this is MUCH more entertaining, and cheaper.  opcorn: 


DUEL DUEL!!!!!     Though for a duel I guess you have to fight each other... hmm no that's not good you both seem to be friends...

Lang, did you know Last said this about you?  *whisper whisper whisper*
Last, guess what lang just said behind your back?  *whisper whisper whipser*


----------



## Xue Sheng

Shaderon said:


> Lang, did you know Last said this about you? *whisper whisper whisper*
> Last, guess what lang just said behind your back? *whisper whisper whipser*


 
Thanks, I was getting worried I was going to end up in a duel for a minute there :uhyeah:


----------



## Langenschwert

Last Fearner said:


> Ahhhh, a compelling argument - but alas, I have a better one! My name is Eisenhart which is German for "Iron heart," and rhymes with "Martial Art." Thus, the very term "Martial Art" was derived from my name. My first name, Darwin, is after Charles Darwin for the origin of the species, for I AM the origin of all Martial Art (_I really hope no one is actually buying all this!  _)


 
A better argument?  How many duels am I gonna have to fight, here?   Actually, Eisenhart is similar to Eisenpforte, a guard named in some German longsword manuals.   You may have something there. 



> Wait..... could we have simultaneously created the same thing at the same time in history? Perhaps you are a reincarnation of me, or I of you. Which came first, the Langenschwert, or the Eisenhart? Oh, the questions run too deep for such a simple man! :shrug:


 
I guess I'm going to have to take Stephen Hawking out drinking again amd ask him.  There goes another paycheque.   I have no info on how he feels about Supertramp, either.



> What!?! Could this be!!? Another fan of Bach, and ILLUSIONS? :highfive:


 
So it would seem.  Strange, considering our diametrically opposed philosophical viewpoints.  



> Last time I corresponded with him, I tried to urge him to go ahead with making ILLUSIONS into a movie (funding is the drawback, he says).


 
Everybody seems to have that problem. 



> (or at least your mock, pretense for the Illusion of bravery).


 
Them's fightin' words!  Impugning my e-courage may draw the wrath of my martial pixels!!!  Tread carefully, lest thy new allies forsake thee in thy hour of need!



> Then perhaps we could stand and fight together - - back to back (just watch where you're swingin' that sword!) iratedan
> 
> *"Brother to brother, yours in life and death."*:knight:


 
Then I shall rally the troops: 



 
Huzzah, off to battle!!!

Tolkien-esquely,

-Mark


----------



## Langenschwert

Xue Sheng said:


> Thanks, I was getting worried I was going to end up in a duel for a minute there :uhyeah:


 
Get in line like everyone else!  Just give me time to select some Seconds.  Any takers? 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel

-Mark


----------



## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> Get in line like everyone else! Just give me time to select some Seconds. Any takers?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duel
> 
> -Mark


 
Aww forget it, you are looking at this from a Western perspective (to many rules) and I am looking at it from an Eastern Perspective (get on with it) and that would just cause another argument which leads to more duels and it just gets WAY to time consuming so I will just stick saying

"You have insulted my family and the Shaolin temple"

And I'm ok with that.


----------



## Langenschwert

Xue Sheng said:


> Aww forget it, you are looking at this from a Western perspective (to many rules)


 
Well, the rules weren't always followed.  Once combat starts, the rules of engagement are: "win at all costs".

And then there's the back alley brawl, using rapiers and daggers.  Or I can just knock on the temple doors and say "Can Xue Sheng come out and play?" 

At which point, we can find a nice field or bridge, draw weapons, and proceed to kill each other like civilized human beings. 

If I ever make it to Valhalla, I'm gonna need the practice ahead of time, so I'm still pluggin' for that duel. 

Best regards,

-Mark


----------



## Langenschwert

Sukerkin said:


> But, but, but ... so is *mine*!


 
Hmmm.  So many duels, so little time.  What's a guy to do?  Given the chances of surviving so many successive duels (not so good, really), I might have to downgrade the duels into hard-nosed games of tiddly-winks.  

-Mark


----------



## Xue Sheng

Langenschwert said:


> Well, the rules weren't always followed. Once combat starts, the rules of engagement are: "win at all costs".
> 
> And then there's the back alley brawl, using rapiers and daggers. Or I can just knock on the temple doors and say "Can Xue Sheng come out and play?"
> 
> At which point, we can find a nice field or bridge, draw weapons, and proceed to kill each other like civilized human beings.
> 
> If I ever make it to Valhalla, I'm gonna need the practice ahead of time, so I'm still pluggin' for that duel.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark


 
Civilized!!!!!

Now you've taken all the fun out of it.

That's it, I'm taking my dao and going home. :uhyeah:


----------

