# KRAV MAGA TRAINING • That's why the Street is different from your Dojo



## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 8, 2014)

I came across this video yesterday and posted it to my blog:

*The Instinctive Edge* - KRAV MAGA TRAINING That 8217 s why the Street is different from your Dojo The Instinctive Edge 

Here is the video:





Thought this might be interesting and generate some conversation.


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

Something I tried to point out earlier without a great deal of success! 

I always thought there was a good reason for not staying on the ground. 

From Systema there is a little drill that we do when getting up from the ground where you virtually come up in a spiral in such a way that you can check your surroundings. It also helps to reduce tunnel vision as you are being forced to look around. 

If you have a couple of minutes you can see it at 2:57 in the following video.   




I teach it to the Krav guys and yell at them if they get off the ground without looking about. I don't have to yell often.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

I am pretty sure regardless of the drill if i snuck up behind someone and attacked them they are going to have issues defending themselves.

now that people know what a dog pile is. It is also a game we play. And it does not leave the victim with much of a chance.


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## Transk53 (Dec 9, 2014)

Brilliant OP. @2:09, would the chain punch be feasible? IE I mean in terms of the static position and body balance. If you see what I mean.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 9, 2014)

Apparently wearing big baggy hooded sweat shirts it's to smart either that guy went flying


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 9, 2014)

See, this is why the Gracie family doesn't believe in birth control. That way, if you have someone down on the ground and someone comes running up to kick your head in, then you've got your brothers on hand to take _that_ guy down. (I'm only half joking.)

More seriously, this is why I'm a big advocate of knee mount if you have to take someone down in a fight. It's much easier to keep an eye on the surroundings and disengage if necessary from top of knee mount than from any other ground position.



drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure regardless of the drill if i snuck up behind someone and attacked them they are going to have issues defending themselves.



Yeah, that's why it's so important to develop peripheral awareness and avoid the tunnel vision which is so natural when getting into a fight. It's not really an issue of style as it is a matter of psychology, self-control, and tactical understanding.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 9, 2014)

Absolutely Tony, Knee on stomach is a great position for a street confrontation because you can be mobile very fast instead of the mount or crossbody where your mobility is significantly reduced.


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I am pretty sure regardless of the drill if i snuck up behind someone and attacked them they are going to have issues defending themselves.
> 
> now that people know what a dog pile is. It is also a game we play. And it does not leave the victim with much of a chance.


It's nothing to do with sneaking up. If you look at the CCTV examples, the assailants are running up. It is the speed of the attack and a lack of awareness of a potential attack that makes it effective. Tunnel vision is part of that but intentionally putting yourself in a position where it can happen doesn't make sense to me.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> It's nothing to do with sneaking up. If you look at the CCTV examples, the assailants are running up. It is the speed of the attack and a lack of awareness of a potential attack that makes it effective. Tunnel vision is part of that but intentionally putting yourself in a position where it can happen doesn't make sense to me.


Ive been attacked from behind a few times and truth be told they were all my fault.  I got to focused on the task and not what was going on around me.  The worst was a drunk guy tried to run me over with a car.  I got out of the way and he crashed into a car.  I was trying to drag him out of the car before he backed up and tried again.  When I got him out on the ground to cuff him his 2 cousins came up behind me one got me in a choke hold from behind the other was grabbing my arm.  In the end I won mainly because I was bigger stronger better trained and not drunk


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## Deleted member 32980 (Dec 9, 2014)

This is what the Israeli special forces used. As part of Thier anti-terrorist groups.


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## Tez3 (Dec 9, 2014)

Nate the foreverman said:


> This is what the Israeli special forces used. As part of Thier anti-terrorist groups.



It is Israeli, the name itself is Hebrew. It's not just for spec forces. Many non Israelis use it to make loads of money teaching it all around the world. There is also a fair bit of bickering over who has the best 'lineage'.


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## punisher73 (Dec 9, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See, this is why the Gracie family doesn't believe in birth control. That way, if you have someone down on the ground and someone comes running up to kick your head in, then you've got your brothers on hand to take _that_ guy down. (I'm only half joking.)
> 
> More seriously, this is why I'm a big advocate of knee mount if you have to take someone down in a fight. It's much easier to keep an eye on the surroundings and disengage if necessary from top of knee mount than from any other ground position.
> 
> ...



Speaking of the Gracies, I remember reading an interview with Rickson Gracie and he talked about GJJ and self-defense.  He said GJJ/BJJ was great in Brazil because everyone just circles around and watches.  BUT, in America, he said he wouldn't go to the ground, he would rely on his striking and try to get out of there because spectators do get involved.  He also mentioned carrying a gun.

As to the video.  Good stuff, but should be "common sense" for people training in a martial art.  I did find it funny when they did the part about "not knowing who is involved" or whatever they called it, yet all of the people involved were wearing their gang colors and you could tell who was who.  Awareness and training will help you notice that type of thing.


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## Transk53 (Dec 9, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> It is Israeli, the name itself is Hebrew. It's not just for spec forces. Many non Israelis use it to make loads of money teaching it all around the world. There is also a fair bit of bickering over who has the best 'lineage'.



I have been told in the past that the IDF version is not taught outside the military. That right? I.E. any different.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See, this is why the Gracie family doesn't believe in birth control. That way, if you have someone down on the ground and someone comes running up to kick your head in, then you've got your brothers on hand to take _that_ guy down. (I'm only half joking.)
> 
> More seriously, this is why I'm a big advocate of knee mount if you have to take someone down in a fight. It's much easier to keep an eye on the surroundings and disengage if necessary from top of knee mount than from any other ground position.
> 
> ...



the peripheral thing is legitimately hard. Like the advice i give to boxers "punch them and don't let them punch you"

it is true but doesn't help much.

there is a reason for that tunnel vision. The actions of the guy directly in front of you who is trying to hurt tend to be important.

i know personally it is harder to pick out an ambush than it seems.

we solve the peripheral issue with numbers.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> It's nothing to do with sneaking up. If you look at the CCTV examples, the assailants are running up. It is the speed of the attack and a lack of awareness of a potential attack that makes it effective. Tunnel vision is part of that but intentionally putting yourself in a position where it can happen doesn't make sense to me.



which is a risk as soon as you fight people at all.

pro tip for you. On your own It is not awareness it is mobility. If you become stationary. Standing or the ground. That is where the risk increases. If your third party attacker has to cover ground to get at you. It is a lot harder to to create the circumstances for a good ambush.

as a group it is the opposite. You all go running off on your own you get picked off.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Am i the only person who spars 10 to a room and so has to constantly watch out for other people?


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely Tony, Knee on stomach is a great position for a street confrontation because you can be mobile very fast instead of the mount or crossbody where your mobility is significantly reduced.



yeah vote in for knee on belly. And of course can be transitioned into from most top control.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> I have been told in the past that the IDF version is not taught outside the military. That right? I.E. any different.



our judo guy is Israeli. Probably did time in the military. (i think they have to.)

i will ask him.


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> which is a risk as soon as you fight people at all.
> 
> *pro tip for you*. On your own It is not awareness it is mobility. If you become stationary. Standing or the ground. That is where the risk increases. If your third party attacker has to cover ground to get at you. It is a lot harder to to create the circumstances for a good ambush.
> 
> as a group it is the opposite. You all go running off on your own you get picked off.


Thanks for the advice. I must remember to add it to what I teach. I wonder why I had never thought of it myself. 

Oh! A pro tip back ... awareness is crucial, probably number one for self defence.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

K-man said:


> Thanks for the advice. I must remember to add it to what I teach. I wonder why I had never thought of it myself.
> 
> Oh! A pro tip back ... awareness is crucial, probably number one for self defence.


a few reasons.

generally because you are fighting for space in a gym and cant go out and scrap properly.

because there is this idea that all street fighting is in fighting.

because it is technically high risk. With all the running around.

how does that awareness work for you when you fight people? I cant pull it off in real fights all that well. To much going on.

instead i position to where is is less of a risk.


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## drop bear (Dec 9, 2014)

Awareness isn't a real thing. Unless it is backed up with proven tactics.

so if you are caught in the middle of a fight. All the peripheral in the world wont save you. You are better off recognizing that. And moving to a better position.

eg. Breaking up a fight. You don't stand between people trying to push them apart.


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## K-man (Dec 9, 2014)

drop bear said:


> a few reasons.
> 
> generally because you are fighting for space in a gym and cant go out and scrap properly.
> 
> ...


Mate, I teach this stuff. I am sorry that I was being facetious but I have just been insulted again on another thread and I was a bit testy with you telling me my job. 

OK. But, I'm confused as to what you are saying here.

What is you are fighting for space in the gym? We don't have a gym. I have a huge dojo space and small numbers. When we do multiple attacks we use different scenarios, some of which you are the only one on the ground, some you are surrounded. In all cases you have to keep relaxed as you are being hit and you have to keep moving.

I'm assuming you mean 'infighting'. If that is the case then any fight I am in will be infighting. If someone wants to fight me they will come into my space. I will not be engaging in a monkey dance. If the fight goes to the ground, I don't want to stay there.

What do you mean by "technically high risk"?

Awareness is something that I stress at all stages of training. I gave one example of a training aid I employ in my earlier post. That and stressing peripheral vision, taking time to glance around, keep moving your feet so that you are not stuck facing one direction, keeping a wall behind you etc.


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## Danny T (Dec 9, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> More seriously, this is why I'm a big advocate of knee mount if you have to take someone down in a fight. It's much easier to keep an eye on the surroundings and disengage if necessary from top of knee mount than from any other ground position.


Agreed!
I like to say, "when it comes to ground fighting the closest I want to be to the ground is my knee on the bad guy's belly."   
Doesn't always happen but that is where I'd prefer to be.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Mate, I teach this stuff. I am sorry that I was being facetious but I have just been insulted again on another thread and I was a bit testy with you telling me my job.
> 
> OK. But, I'm confused as to what you are saying here.
> 
> ...



a fight can occur over a huge distance especially if it is big and you are having running battles. It changes the dynamics.

if i can constantly run away it makes it really hard for you to apply stuff. Like hyenas on some sort of animal. They just nip at them untill they get exhausted. And then kill it. It is not the stand up fight people expect. Gym space usually determines you don't train like that.

i don't understand why you would do only one range or train for one style of attack. Monkey dance is one circumstance you may find yourself in against your will. Or even may be the most tactical choice.

running at someone and engaging them is risky. Standing still and crab walking towards them keeps you safer. But makes you a target for ambush attack.

i will do awareness as a new post


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> running at someone and engaging them is risky. Standing still and crab walking towards them keeps you safer. But makes you a target for ambush attack.



No offence, but that seems a little contradictory to me.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Awareness. Is really difficult in a fight. If you concentrate on your surroundings you cant focus as well on the guy in front of you hitting you.

you really cant do both at once. You have to switch between one and the other and it is a compromise.

now awareness does not work as well as it is sold. This coming from someone who does get ambushed. It is one of the least effective methods to counter it.

i thought i had good situational awareness untill i became a target.

so you have to be positioned so that you are not relying on awareness as much. 

the difference between being in a circle of 10 guys and learning 360 degrees of defence.

and just getting out of that circle.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> No offence, but that seems a little contradictory to me.



it is a compromise where one risk may outweigh the other.

so it will be contradictory by definition.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

If i run hard in a fight throwing superman punches at everybody You have to run harder to catch me and hit me.

but if I screw it up........


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

Yeah of course, that would be the leg it and damage what you can. But as you say, you get clipped once and your down. Better to run harder and find defensible ground IMHO


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah of course, that would be the leg it and damage what you can. But as you say, you get clipped once and your down. Better to run harder and find defensible ground IMHO



then it becomes a tactical game of a running battle. Rather than anything practiced in a dojo.

(sort of. There are still elements that overlap)


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> then it becomes a tactical game of a running battle. Rather than anything practiced in a dojo.
> 
> (sort of. There are still elements that overlap)



Indeed. As you say above, awareness is key and also tactical  awareness of the situation. No amount of MA or SD training will help if you are cornered and in threat of being pushed down, or being pushed down. The group rushing you will be in the ascendency and if you have to leg it, do so. I guess you're MMA training would mitigate some of that, but for me no.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Indeed. As you say above, awareness is key and also tactical  awareness of the situation. No amount of MA or SD training will help if you are cornered and in threat of being pushed down, or being pushed down. The group rushing you will be in the ascendency and if you have to leg it, do so. I guess you're MMA training would mitigate some of that, but for me no.



see i still think awareness is kind of a non thing. Especially when used in as general a concept as it seems to get thrown around.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Awareness. Is really difficult in a fight. If you concentrate on your surroundings you cant focus as well on the guy in front of you hitting you.
> 
> you really cant do both at once. You have to switch between one and the other and it is a compromise.
> 
> ...



I pretty much agree with all of this, which is why I would say that _real_ situational awareness is not the movie version where you can be engaged in a pitched battle with an opponent in front of you yet magically aware of the bad guy coming up to stab you in the back.

_Real_ situational awareness includes the knowledge of all the things you just  mentioned so that:

You only engage at close range with one opponent if you have no choice or you know there is no one else in the vicinity or you know you have backup to monitor your surroundings - and even then you don't engage longer than you have to.

You continually work to position yourself so as to make it hard for anyone to come up behind you.

You don't get so emotionally committed to beating the other guy that you forget your most important goal is to go home in one piece. (I've seen situations where one combatant _knows_ other peoples are coming up, but he just doesn't _care_ because he's so intent on smashing the other guy.)

You understand that trade-off between focusing on the guy in front of you and focusing on your surroundings and can switch the focus as demanded by the situation moment to moment.

You keep track of where you are in relationship to any exits or escape routes.

You choose tactics which allow you maximize mobility and field of vision (.i.e. knee mount instead of crossbody if the fight goes to the ground)

And so on ...


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I pretty much agree with all of this, which is why I would say that _real_ situational awareness is not the movie version where you can be engaged in a pitched battle with an opponent in front of you yet magically aware of the bad guy coming up to stab you in the back.
> 
> _Real_ situational awareness includes the knowledge of all the things you just  mentioned so that:
> 
> ...


yes.

and then we have to add an element to that.

in that you have to win the fight you are in. You may have to take the guy to the ground and keep him there because you are getting bashed.

then you may choose side control or even fight from guard because there is no way you can let this dude back up.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> yes.
> 
> and then we have to add an element to that.
> 
> ...



I would say you *may* have to win the fight you are in, depending on the situation.  *You* are a professional being paid to take care of conflicts at the bar. *I* have the option to take off running as soon as I get a clear shot at the exit. I've got a wife with MS at home to take care of. She doesn't care whether I beat some guy at the bar, she just wants me home safe.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> see i still think awareness is kind of a non thing. Especially when used in as general a concept as it seems to get thrown around.



I tend to view as a personal thing, tied in with personal experience. Probably is a non thing and maybe should be called something else.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> I tend to view as a personal thing, tied in with personal experience. Probably is a non thing and maybe should be called something else.



depends how it is thrown around. "we train situational awareness" could mean anything really.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> depends how it is thrown around. "we train situational awareness" could mean anything really.



Yeah more of an umbrella term really. Over here door staff are getting training on spoting terrorists. Suppose as you say, what is thrown out there.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah more of an umbrella term really. Over here door staff are getting training on spoting terrorists. Suppose as you say, what is thrown out there.



i have done an anti terrorist course. 

and i bet they will be told to be situationally aware as if it is some extra thing.

 And they will be like thank you captain obvious.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

More than likely.


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## elder999 (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> It is Israeli, the name itself is Hebrew. It's not just for spec forces. Many non Israelis use it to make loads of money teaching it all around the world. There is also a fair bit of bickering over who has the best 'lineage'.


And, more to the point, and what I've always liked about it-it's designed for a country where basically the "army" is the ENTIRE POPULACE. It's formulated for the person who isn't a full time warrior, soldier or martial-artist.



Transk53 said:


> I have been told in the past that the IDF version is not taught outside the military. That right? I.E. any different.



When I was first exposed to it, back in NY,  back in the early 80's, the IDF version was pretty much all that was available in the U.S.-I don't know enough about the history of "other versions," but I've seen enough of them to know that there are some that are worth something, and some that are worth staying away from........


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

elder999 said:


> When I was first exposed to it, back in NY, back in the early 80's, the IDF version was pretty much all that was available in the U.S.-I don't know enough about the history of "other versions," but I've seen enough of them to know that there are some that are worth something, and some that are worth staying away from........



One of my old (as in not here any more) was in the French Foreign Legion. While there, he was exposed to Krav which was the IDF version. Basically, he said that IDF Krav was only taught to serving rankers and officers, not the civilians. He also said the the Isralies only exported a slimmed down version. What that means I do not know, I can only guess that certain techniques were withdrawn from the curriculum. A full fat and lite thing here.


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Awareness. Is really difficult in a fight. If you concentrate on your surroundings you cant focus as well on the guy in front of you hitting you.


True, which is why you need to train for it.



drop bear said:


> you really cant do both at once. You have to switch between one and the other and it is a compromise.


Not the case if you can keep peripheral vision. Again there are techniques that help with that. 



drop bear said:


> so you have to be positioned so that you are not relying on awareness as much.


As I pointed out in my earlier post.



drop bear said:


> the difference between being in a circle of 10 guys and learning 360 degrees of defence.
> 
> and just getting out of that circle.


Sometimes not all that easy, which is why we train in the circle and also getting out of that circle.



drop bear said:


> If i run hard in a fight throwing superman punches at everybody You have to run harder to catch me and hit me.
> 
> but if I screw it up........


I won't be chasing you.



drop bear said:


> in that you have to win the fight you are in. You may have to take the guy to the ground and keep him there because you are getting bashed.
> 
> then you may choose side control or even fight from guard because there is no way you can let this dude back up.


That might be the case in your bouncing job but nothing to do with me on the street. I have no desire to go to the ground with anyone and if I do get him down, I certainly won't be trying to get him back up.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> True, which is why you need to train for it.
> 
> Not the case if you can keep peripheral vision. Again there are techniques that help with that.
> 
> ...



training is one thing. But it is different outside the dojo. Have you tried that peripheral vision stuff in fights?

for me it kind of works and kind of doesn't. So if i am running in from the sidelines choosing which target to go for. Then the peripheral vision factors in. But if i am engaged with someone i am not exposing my head that much by looking around.

and even then if i am getting wailed on i am better off covering up. Creating some distance then applying awareness. You just cannot hope to stay in that position and think you will defend to any degree.

 i don't agree with you as to whether or not you have a desire to do whatever. I believe you need the tools in the toolbox to make a decision at the time.

so if you are convinced you never need to hold a person down or chase a person down. Good luck to you. I would still be prepared for that eventually.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> training is one thing. But it is different outside the dojo. Have you tried that peripheral vision stuff in fights?
> 
> for me it kind of works and kind of doesn't. So if i am running in from the sidelines choosing which target to go for. Then the peripheral vision factors in. But if i am engaged with someone i am not exposing my head that much by looking around.
> 
> ...



K-man will correct me if I'm wrong but he didn't say he would never need to hold a person down to chase them down, _he said he had no_ _desire to_, a totally different kettle of fish. I'm sure if he felt he needed to he would be able to perfectly well, the tools are there whether they are deployed or not. Not having the desire to do something doesn't mean one doesn't have the capability to do it.

This running in from the sidelines thing? that can be very iffy from a number of points. It can for one thing be seen as an offensive move by the law, you would need to be sure of the circumstances and your legal standing.
'Applying awareness'? an odd way of expressing it.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> K-man will correct me if I'm wrong but he didn't say he would never need to hold a person down to chase them down, _he said he had no_ _desire to_, a totally different kettle of fish. I'm sure if he felt he needed to he would be able to perfectly well, the tools are there whether they are deployed or not. Not having the desire to do something doesn't mean one doesn't have the capability to do it.
> 
> This running in from the sidelines thing? that can be very iffy from a number of points. It can for one thing be seen as an offensive move by the law, you would need to be sure of the circumstances and your legal standing.
> 'Applying awareness'? an odd way of expressing it.



well if we are speaking for k man i am going to suggest he will never find a reason to engage in prolonged groundwork unless forced there by the guy he is fighting. And this will be because he thinks fights will happen in a certain way rather than an unpredictable way.

the whole umbrella of fighting outside the dojo can be iffy in a legal sense.

applying awareness sounds right as i will be switching it on and off. If i am engaged in a toe to toe with some guy. I find i don't have the time and space to do much scanning of the room. But if there is a break in the action then i might have a chance for a look around.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> well if we are speaking for k man i am going to suggest he will never find a reason to engage in prolonged groundwork unless forced there by the guy he is fighting. And this will be because he thinks fights will happen in a certain way rather than an unpredictable way.
> 
> the whole umbrella of fighting outside the dojo can be iffy in a legal sense.
> 
> applying awareness sounds right as i will be switching it on and off. If i am engaged in a toe to toe with some guy. I find i don't have the time and space to do much scanning of the room. But if there is a break in the action then i might have a chance for a look around.




Well I'll put it this way, I would trust K-man in a fight to watch my back more than I'd trust you simply because I find your modus operandi in a fight or potential fight situation dangerous.
I'm likely quite honestly to have been in more situations over the years than either of you and I don't want someone who is a maverick beside me in those situations. I think you sound more like a brawler than someone who has trained  any sort of self defence/martial arts.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Well I'll put it this way, I would trust K-man in a fight to watch my back more than I'd trust you simply because I find your modus operandi in a fight or potential fight situation dangerous.
> I'm likely quite honestly to have been in more situations over the years than either of you and I don't want someone who is a maverick beside me in those situations. I think you sound more like a brawler than someone who has trained  any sort of self defence/martial arts.



what has that to do with anything?

and i am more val Kilmer than tom cruise.


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> what has that to do with anything?
> 
> and i am more val Kilmer than tom cruise.




Really? that's all you can come up with? If you can't see there's nought more to be said.


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## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Really? that's all you can come up with? If you can't see there's nought more to be said.



that you would prefer k man by your side When you are in the danger zone?


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## Tez3 (Dec 10, 2014)

'danger zone'? I like people who are with me when we are in the 'danger zone' ( a film cliché if ever I heard one) to be calm and aware and not wade in thinking they are a Ninja Turtle.


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## Transk53 (Dec 10, 2014)

A bouncer does not fight on the door, just controls it k-man. In fact, these days we are door staff and don't drag knuckles. The above content is suggestive.


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## K-man (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> training is one thing. But it is different outside the dojo. Have you tried that peripheral vision stuff in fights?


I have had several instances where I had one person under restraint with up to five or six of their mates on hand. Yes, I was certainly aware of where they were and their demeanour.



drop bear said:


> for me it kind of works and kind of doesn't. So if i am running in from the sidelines choosing which target to go for. Then the peripheral vision factors in. But if i am engaged with someone i am not exposing my head that much by looking around.


I have never had the need to do that. Not to say the situation could never occur but for me it is an unlikely scenario.



drop bear said:


> and even then if i am getting wailed on i am better off covering up. Creating some distance then applying awareness. You just cannot hope to stay in that position and think you will defend to any degree.


I can agree with what you are saying, but again, a situation I am not likely to encounter.



drop bear said:


> i don't agree with you as to whether or not you have a desire to do whatever. I believe you need the tools in the toolbox to make a decision at the time.


Exactly what I teach. You must recognise and use what you have. If you are on the ground you have to fight on the ground until you can get up. I have only had to do that once.



drop bear said:


> so if you are convinced you never need to hold a person down or chase a person down. Good luck to you. I would still be prepared for that eventually.


In the past, and when I was a bit younger, I used to chase and catch people. But, I wasn't chasing them to fight them, just restrain them. I cannot imagine many scenarios now where I would need to do that again and definitely I wouldn't be chasing them for a fight.


----------



## K-man (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> well if we are speaking for k man i am going to suggest he will never find a reason to engage in prolonged groundwork unless forced there by the guy he is fighting. And this will be because he thinks fights will happen in a certain way rather than an unpredictable way.


Your first sentence is 100% correct. Your second is wrong by the same percentage. If you had been in my Krav class last night you might have heard me say "When you have someone standing in front of you, you cannot pre plan what you are going to do. You watch the body language and react instinctively. Then you work from the position you are in with what ever opportunities you have been offered." I believe that's pretty close to what you are saying.



drop bear said:


> the whole umbrella of fighting outside the dojo can be iffy in a legal sense.


So true, which is why I remind my guys of that a dozen or more times every night.


----------



## K-man (Dec 10, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> A bouncer does not fight on the door, just controls it k-man. In fact, these days we are door staff and don't drag knuckles. The above content is suggestive.


Mmm! Where I come from bouncers also work inside removing patrons who are no longer welcome. As to the second part, I'm not sure what I have posted that gave you that impression. Perhaps you could elaborate.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 10, 2014)

drop bear said:


> training is one thing. But it is different outside the dojo. Have you tried that peripheral vision stuff in fights?


Yes and in domestics, and in homicide scenes, and in SWAT raids and in undercover work where I was always worried about being robbed or killed.  So yes and it can be taught.


> for me it kind of works and kind of doesn't. So if i am running in from the sidelines choosing which target to go for. Then the peripheral vision factors in. But if i am engaged with someone i am not exposing my head that much by looking around.


You don't need to "look around" that's the point of peripheral vision.


> and even then if i am getting wailed on i am better off covering up. Creating some distance then applying awareness. You just cannot hope to stay in that position and think you will defend to any degree.



One on one sure.  3 or 4 or 10 on 1 covering up will get your head smashed in. And depending in where you are there may not be any distance available to create.  So now you better start using better training, strengh, stamina, and stay calm.  Running around like a crazy man won't do much


> > i don't agree with you as to whether or not you have a desire to do whatever. I believe you need the tools in the toolbox to make a decision at the time.
> >
> >
> > > I agree you always need a plan B, C, D ,E and be willing to jump from A to D then back to B.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> 'danger zone'? I like people who are with me when we are in the 'danger zone' ( a film cliché if ever I heard one) to be calm and aware and not wade in thinking they are a Ninja Turtle.



so you would prefer them to act like an ice man and not a goose.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Yes and in domestics, and in homicide scenes, and in SWAT raids and in undercover work where I was always worried about being robbed or killed.  So yes and it can be taught.
> 
> You don't need to "look around" that's the point of peripheral vision.
> 
> ...



i am sure it can be taught. But the question was has k man used what he has been taught?

unless you taught him.

i mean that is what you do right. Train. Test. Train some more. 

removing your focus from the job at hand. By concentrating on external threats Increases the risk of not being able to do that job. You don't get to do both at once effectively. 

3,4, 10 on one you are suggesting there is any likelihood you could stand and trade? You wouldn't cover and move?
i don't see how you achieve that. Regardless how much better training you have.


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 10, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Agreed!
> I like to say, "when it comes to ground fighting the closest I want to be to the ground is my knee on the bad guy's belly."
> Doesn't always happen but that is where I'd prefer to be.



Interestingly, we were taught knee on belly and knee on sternum.

Knee on sternum sucks btw.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Your first sentence is 100% correct. Your second is wrong by the same percentage. If you had been in my Krav class last night you might have heard me say "When you have someone standing in front of you, you cannot pre plan what you are going to do. You watch the body language and react instinctively. Then you work from the position you are in with what ever opportunities you have been offered." I believe that's pretty close to what you are saying.
> 
> So true, which is why I remind my guys of that a dozen or more times every night.



i have not heard a mabye from you in this before. You don't run. You don't ground work you infight and never monkey dance.

and the running thing is a bit of a tangent. It stops you getting sniper punched under the right circumstances. So if you don't run after me all the better. I am creating a bit of space.

you are putting a lot of restrictions out there. And making them black and white occurrences as to what will happen.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Interestingly, we were taught knee on belly and knee on sternum.
> 
> Knee on sternum sucks btw.



there is a positional asphyxia risk associated there by the way.

just in case people want to get heavy with the legal ramifications.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 10, 2014)

K-man said:


> Mmm! Where I come from bouncers also work inside removing patrons who are no longer welcome. As to the second part, I'm not sure what I have posted that gave you that impression. Perhaps you could elaborate.



security guards do all sorts of stuff.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear, I honestly think you are having a conversation with yourself as well as dropping in comments that are amusing only in your head. I know you think having a conversation is like sparring but really it's not. I don't think you have read what K-man has actually written and I don't think Hanzou needs to be told what the 'ramifications' are on a technique he will be very familiar with.
I imagine you think you are the only one who deals with violence and potential violence, that you feel you are bringing us your wisdom and knowledge gained from years out in the field as it were. Sadly that's not the case, many of us have been in situations that have taught us more than reading your posts do, we all speak from our own experience. We have learnt from instructors that have also had the same or often more experience. In other words we aren't bloody stupid mate so stop treating us as if we are.


----------



## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i have not heard a mabye from you in this before. You don't run. You don't ground work you infight and never monkey dance.
> 
> and the running thing is a bit of a tangent. It stops you getting sniper punched under the right circumstances. So if you don't run after me all the better. I am creating a bit of space.
> 
> you are putting a lot of restrictions out there. And making them black and white occurrences as to what will happen.


I'm not sure what you are arguing for or against here. I train because I enjoy it. I teach so I can pass on the information I have had the privilege of learning. If I ever need to use the skills I have learned it will be in a self defence situation, not sparring, not competition and not in a security/ bouncing environment. In self defence hopefully I will never need to resort to fighting. If that becomes necessary I will not be chasing someone. They can come to me or I will be out the door if escaping is an option. I have no intention of fighting on the ground. If I was taken to the ground my prime objective would be to regain my feet and disengage. The monkey dance is what in legal terms is consensual fighting, not that that makes it legal. I'm not into consensual violence except in the dojo

As to running. If you are running away, why would I want to chase you? You can make all the distance you like. In the meantime I'll be leaving.

I'm putting no restrictions on anything. Under the law, I can fight to defend myself, my family or my property. Outside of that I am throwing myself on the mercy of the court. From past experience playing the 'legal game' is generally beneficial only for barristers and solicitors. I will only be fighting if there is no other option.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> security guards do all sorts of stuff.



Yes security has all manner of different stuff to take part in, but l don't think chasing someone down a street and giving them a kicking is appropriate. I think you always have to do what's necessary. Someone has a dig fair enough.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i am sure it can be taught. But the question was has k man used what he has been taught?


Question has nothing to do with Kman Your claim that you cant use peripheral vision in the real world and that is just flat wrong.


> unless you taught him.


nope


> i mean that is what you do right. Train. Test. Train some more.
> removing your focus from the job at hand. By concentrating on external threats Increases the risk of not being able to do that job. You don't get to do both at once effectively.


Nonsense.  I train new recruits how to do this every year.  No worrying about ALL threats will get you killed. You know out in the real world......


> 3,4, 10 on one you are suggesting there is any likelihood you could stand and trade?


Yep I've done it and I'm still here


> You wouldn't cover and move?


sometimes you cant move.


> i don't see how you achieve that. Regardless how much better training you have.


Welcome to the real world.


----------



## Danny T (Dec 11, 2014)

Hanzou said:


> Interestingly, we were taught knee on belly and knee on sternum.
> 
> Knee on sternum sucks btw.


Was taught both points and the neck in Karate, Wing Chun and Pekiti-Tirsia as well as in CSW and BJJ. Using the term 'knee on belly' generically as knee on the body controlling his body with pressure.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Dec 11, 2014)

Danny T said:


> Was taught both points and the neck in Karate, Wing Chun and Pekiti-Tirsia as well as in CSW and BJJ. Using the term 'knee on belly' generically as knee on the body controlling his body with pressure.



Yeah, I consider "knee on belly" or "knee mount" to be a generic term. The way I normally teach it is actually shin across the waistline like a seat belt. The knee on sternum variation is nastier, but a bit less secure and easier to escape. The knee on face version is just being mean, although it does help build your pain tolerance if you're the person on the bottom.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Mmm! Where I come from bouncers also work inside removing patrons who are no longer welcome. As to the second part, I'm not sure what I have posted that gave you that impression. Perhaps you could elaborate.



Sorry. I meant to double quote you and drop bear. My edit button did not work.


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## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry. I meant to double quote you and drop bear. My edit button did not work.



Also you are. Depending on the size of the venue, it could be a two man or a big team. The front door staff tend to stay on the front door, unless a code red is called. Then you can make use of bar staff and management.


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## K-man (Dec 11, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry. I meant to double quote you and drop bear. My edit button did not work.


Cool!


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## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> Cool!



Just finding drop bears credentials as a doorman a bit sceptical. I have worked with one Ozzie, things seem a little off.


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## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yes security has all manner of different stuff to take part in, but l don't think chasing someone down a street and giving them a kicking is appropriate. I think you always have to do what's necessary. Someone has a dig fair enough.



there a circumstances. You get a back up call or something.

i used to work shopping centers. A back up run could be a half marathon before i even got to the fight.

but i am not strictly keeping this bouncing either. Part of the methods i am endorsing are also the ones i find hard to stop. Rather than the ones i use.

security is quite often using the many vs one tactics.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> drop bear, I honestly think you are having a conversation with yourself as well as dropping in comments that are amusing only in your head. I know you think having a conversation is like sparring but really it's not. I don't think you have read what K-man has actually written and I don't think Hanzou needs to be told what the 'ramifications' are on a technique he will be very familiar with.
> I imagine you think you are the only one who deals with violence and potential violence, that you feel you are bringing us your wisdom and knowledge gained from years out in the field as it were. Sadly that's not the case, many of us have been in situations that have taught us more than reading your posts do, we all speak from our own experience. We have learnt from instructors that have also had the same or often more experience. In other words we aren't bloody stupid mate so stop treating us as if we are.



mabye if you were part of the discussion you would get better responses.

so far you have not discussed the topic at all.

so i am not sure what you are trying to achieve.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Question has nothing to do with Kman Your claim that you cant use peripheral vision in the real world and that is just flat wrong.
> 
> nope
> 
> ...



l claim peripheral vision is limited in application in the real world. And that is just flat right.

ok so your training is the same or different to k mans?

i had a look. Your average range of peripheral vision is about a hundred degrees sideways. How much better do you get someone's range through training?

because a hundred degrees really isnt much

you have fought 10 guys on your own?


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> mabye if you were part of the discussion you would get better responses.
> 
> so far you have not discussed the topic at all.
> 
> so i am not sure what you are trying to achieve.




Well you got me beat there as I have no idea what you are talking about.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> there a circumstances. You get a back up call or something.
> 
> i used to work shopping centers. A back up run could be a half marathon before i even got to the fight.
> 
> ...



Yeah I understand aggression and the moment. This is what I teach my guys by personality, but tactics work as a team.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> l claim peripheral vision is limited in application in the real world. And that is just flat right.
> 
> ok so your training is the same or different to k mans?
> 
> ...



No all wrong.

(Edit> as I personally do not think it is appropriate to brag about taking on 10 blokes)


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> l claim peripheral vision is limited in application in the real world. And that is just flat right.


then your not doing it right


> ok so your training is the same or different to k mans?


I have no idea what or how he trains.  I know how I train officers


> i had a look. Your average range of peripheral vision is about a hundred degrees sideways. How much better do you get someone's range through training?
> 
> because a hundred degrees really isnt much


Yep and if you don't get "tunnel Vision"  learn not to panic and move you body and your head I can increase that range pretty far.  If I stare at you I get 100 degrees.  then if I look left I can still see you in my right side peripheral and my left is now 100 degrees farther so I still see you and that much farther.  Look off to the right and same thing.  before you know it you can cover a large amount of ground.  Then add that to the eye naturally looks for movement it makes it even easier as long as you stay calm



> you have fought 10 guys on your own?


Actually in the 4-5 min I was waiting for help  I probably hit over 20 different people So I don't know an actual number.  We have a bar area that on weekends its nothing to have several1000s of people in the summer.  Huge fight in a parking lot I work my way to the middle and see people stomping a man to death and a gun laying on the ground next to him..  He's laying next to a car so I kicked the gun under the car then  I put myself between him and the crowd and used the car to protect my back.  I emptied a can of pepper spray then started swinging my baton at anyone that wouldn't get back.  There was several people that attempted to attack me and him.  Apparently he punched his girlfriend in front of a large group of minority guys who took offense when they tried to get him to stop he called them a bunch of racial slurs which made them even more pissed.  then he started to pull a gun from his pocket which made them even more mad.  Had I just concentrated on one guy at a time Id have had my head knocked in like him.  You keep your head on a swivel learn not to fixate on one thing. 

The first lesson I teach and the one every police recruit falls for is the domestic violence scenario.  You send them in and say the male beat up the female.  Have the roll players argue and the recruit ALWAYS gets in the middle it never fails.  Then when he arrests the male he always turns his back to the female and that's when she attacks him.  After we teach them better tactics and train them that nothing is ever as it seems and never fixate on anything for too long they do much better. 
Ask anyone that has ever been robbed with a weapon most victims fixate on the weapon and can describe it pretty well but never look at the suspects face they get tunnel vision.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Yeah I understand aggression and the moment. This is what I teach my guys by personality, but tactics work as a team.



i am not saying they don't. But in the vein of multiple attackers. That is generally us. We are the ones who use those tactics. But there is also a set of counter tactics that spoil what we do.

those are the ones that you would employment against multiples.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> then your not doing it right
> 
> I have no idea what or how he trains.  I know how I train officers
> 
> ...




didn't you say this?

"You don't need to "look around" that's the point of peripheral vision."


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

I mean seriously balen i have done a heap of posts saying you have to be in a position to apply situational awareness. We go round in circles and you come up with this idea about positioning.


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## Tez3 (Dec 11, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> .....The first lesson I teach and the one every police recruit falls for is the domestic violence scenario. You send them in and say the male beat up the female. Have the roll players argue and the recruit ALWAYS gets in the middle it never fails. Then when he arrests the male he always turns his back to the female and that's when she attacks him. After we teach them better tactics and train them that nothing is ever as it seems and never fixate on anything for too long they do much better.........



Absolutely, I've seen this happen. A military policeman went to arrest a soldier in this situation and because he can only arrest him not a civilian he ignored the wife who then attacked him.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Awareness isn't a real thing. Unless it is backed up with proven tactics.
> 
> so if you are caught in the middle of a fight. All the peripheral in the world wont save you. You are better off recognizing that. And moving to a better position.
> 
> eg. Breaking up a fight. You don't stand between people trying to push them apart.



this was on the first or second page.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i am not saying they don't. But in the vein of multiple attackers. That is generally us. We are the ones who use those tactics. But there is also a set of counter tactics that spoil what we do.
> 
> those are the ones that you would employment against multiples.



So basically you are looking for a fight. The drill is twitch when someone looks tasty. Yeah seen it before!


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I mean seriously balen i have done a heap of posts saying you have to be in a position to apply situational awareness. We go round in circles and you come up with this idea about positioning.


if all you took from that is positioning well good luck too you because you missed the boat


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

drop bear said:


> didn't you say this?
> 
> "You don't need to "look around" that's the point of peripheral vision."


Yep I'm not "looking around"  I never take my eyes off my target I see him the entire time.  I'm moving my body or changing my focus.  Your claiming you cant keep an eye on the target and see around you.  Im saying you do it every day.  When you drive you look at the speedometer to see how fast you going or the mirrors you can still see the road at the same time.  Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant to me when you said you cant "look around" I took you as saying your turning away from you attack to look in another direction taking all sight off your attacker.  So I'm not removing visual sight of him (looking around) Im just changing my focus.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 11, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> Absolutely, I've seen this happen. A military policeman went to arrest a soldier in this situation and because he can only arrest him not a civilian he ignored the wife who then attacked him.


Yeah Ive seen it happen a few times


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> So basically you are looking for a fight. The drill is twitch when someone looks tasty. Yeah seen it before!



no i am looking at a fight.  And everything that is hard for a bouncer is good for a person doing self defence.

if this was a bouncing thread my response would be different.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Yep I'm not "looking around"  I never take my eyes off my target I see him the entire time.  I'm moving my body or changing my focus.  Your claiming you cant keep an eye on the target and see around you.  Im saying you do it every day.  When you drive you look at the speedometer to see how fast you going or the mirrors you can still see the road at the same time.  Perhaps I didn't understand what you meant to me when you said you cant "look around" I took you as saying your turning away from you attack to look in another direction taking all sight off your attacker.  So I'm not removing visual sight of him (looking around) Im just changing my focus.



a car has mirrors to help with your situational awareness. 

without those mirrors you still have this blind spot that you are not taking in to account.

and this is without the idea that being punched in the face can be distracting


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> a car has mirrors to help with your situational awareness.
> 
> without those mirrors you still have this blind spot that you are not taking in to account.
> 
> and this is without the idea that being punched in the face can be distracting


LIke I said I teach it, I do it, and I know lots of others that can do it.  Feel free to come by Ill teach you its not as hard as you are trying to say it is.


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> a car has mirrors to help with your situational awareness.
> 
> without those mirrors you still have this blind spot that you are not taking in to account.
> 
> and this is without the idea that being punched in the face can be distracting




However, you are not unaware of the blind spots . You don't ignore them.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> However, you are not unaware of the blind spots . You don't ignore them.



you account for them.

you acknowledge your situational awareness is not a cure all. That even if you have trained in it. There are going to be limitations.

especially with situational awareness. Because if you don't see it you may not know you missed it.

i apply it all the time and i miss stuff all the time. I accept i miss stuff. And plan accordingly


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> LIke I said I teach it, I do it, and I know lots of others that can do it.  Feel free to come by Ill teach you its not as hard as you are trying to say it is.



i am probably more of a target than you though. Less ramifications for targeting a bouncer.

at least in Australia. Almost nobody goes up against cops here.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i am probably more of a target than you though. Less ramifications for targeting a bouncer.
> 
> at least in Australia. Almost nobody goes up against cops here.



and saying that. It is a lot better now with the new laws than it was.

20 years ago when i started. It was under certain circumstances the wild west.

people would go out and target bouncers to raise their manliness factor. And a lot of those issues got swept under the rug.


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i am probably more of a target than you though. Less ramifications for targeting a bouncer.
> 
> at least in Australia. Almost nobody goes up against cops here.


LOl not here.  Ive been shot at, kicked, punched, hit with bottles, chairs,even a car, spit on, choked, pushed, tackled had a TV thrown off a 4th floor at me, cans of soup,batteries thrown etc etc etc.  AND my personal fav I once had a turkey thrown at me during a domestic at thanksgiving


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> LOl not here.  Ive been shot at, kicked, punched, hit with bottles, chairs,even a car, spit on, choked, pushed, tackled had a TV thrown off a 4th floor at me, cans of soup,batteries thrown etc etc etc.  AND my personal fav I once had a turkey thrown at me during a domestic at thanksgiving



i haven't been shot at. Had a few gun wavings though.

what is your opinion on circle of death training?

i will post a video.


----------



## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> i haven't been shot at. Had a few gun wavings though.
> 
> what is your opinion on circle of death training?
> 
> i will post a video.







as a concept not so much application


----------



## Tez3 (Dec 12, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> LOl not here.  Ive been shot at, kicked, punched, hit with bottles, chairs,even a car, spit on, choked, pushed, tackled had a TV thrown off a 4th floor at me, cans of soup,batteries thrown etc etc etc.  AND my personal fav I once had a turkey thrown at me during a domestic at thanksgiving



All that and fridges thrown off balconies, Molotov cocktails, paving stones and kerbs, stones. never a turkey though, did you catch it and take it as evidence?


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 12, 2014)

Tez3 said:


> did you catch it and take it as evidence?


No but it did look good I was tempted to grab a leg and take it for lunch


----------



## ballen0351 (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> as a concept not so much application


We do similar drills more to teach people not to panic when your being attacked from all sides.  Ive seen people panic and freeze up and stop fighting all together.  I don't expect them to win since staying in the middle would be a bad idea but I don't want them to freeze.  I failed a recruit once because of a drill like that no matter how many times we did it she would loose her mind and freeze up and not fight back.  She was fine one on one or even two on one but anymore then that she would just freeze up.


----------



## Transk53 (Dec 12, 2014)

Traffic cones also hurt. See someone hurl one, duck!


----------



## punisher73 (Dec 12, 2014)

Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
1) Failure to define terms:  Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"?  It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant.  For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc.  It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.

2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be.  In this case, the use of "peripheral vision".  Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations.  Problem is we have two different types of vision.  Peripheral and Fovial.  When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision.  Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision".  So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats.  If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats.  This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.


----------



## K-man (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> as a concept not so much application


One comment here. As I have mentioned previously, we often do circle training but I prefer the Systema approach which is to keep moving hitting opponents and moving on. The Krav approach as seen in this video is to engage and destroy, then move on. The problem is that another attacker has the opportunity to move in and grab you. It works as an exercise in getting you used to a chaotic situation with multiple attackers but to my mind is not the best way to engage multiple opponents.

I had a quick look to see if I could find a video but no luck.


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## K-man (Dec 12, 2014)

punisher73 said:


> Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
> 1) Failure to define terms:  Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"?  It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant.  For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc.  It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.
> 
> 2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be.  In this case, the use of "peripheral vision".  Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations.  Problem is we have two different types of vision.  Peripheral and Fovial.  When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision.  Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision".  So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats.  If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats.  This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.


Failure to define terms is always a problem.

Depending on the reason for your training 'situational awareness' is far more important for someone working security, military or police than for someone training for the ring. It is also a concept that we continually stress during training for SD and, yes, it covers a huge range of understanding.

Adrenal dump causes tunnel vision but the adrenalin is metabolised pretty rapidly. It really is a matter of surviving those first few seconds until the situation subsides. I don't think that there is any magical 180 degree vision. It is, as you say constant movement and scanning that gives you that awareness. However, as Drop Bear said, when you are engaged one on one it is not easy to scan or even look for other threats. All you can do is be aware that other threats may be present and look out for them as best you can.


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## Takai (Dec 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> a car has mirrors to help with your situational awareness.
> 
> without those mirrors you still have this blind spot that you are not taking in to account.
> 
> and this is without the idea that being punched in the face can be distracting



So it isn't "situational awareness" to be aware of issues in your surrounding and use the tools (and/or training) at your disposal to mediate them? I am guessing that someone "taught" you how to drive a car. And you probably could't/didn't use those mirrors properly all on your own. I know I had to be taught. 10 years ago I went to a driving school to get my CDL. I had been driving for years and guess what..I learned to how a "professional" uses their mirrors. It really wasn't that hard but it took sometime to make in an ingrained skill.

Saying that something can't be done in the face of people that are telling you they do it, did it and train people to do it seems to me to be a bit....arrogant.


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## Takai (Dec 12, 2014)

K-man said:


> Failure to define terms is always a problem.



Yes!


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## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

punisher73 said:


> Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
> 1) Failure to define terms:  Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"?  It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant.  For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc.  It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.
> 
> 2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be.  In this case, the use of "peripheral vision".  Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations.  Problem is we have two different types of vision.  Peripheral and Fovial.  When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision.  Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision".  So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats.  If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats.  This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.



i tend not to use the term situational awareness unless i am being specific. 

and find it more useful to use terms like fight,move,pop your head up have a look.

i was thinking of a magic trick. As much situational awareness as we think we have. They still fool us.


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## drop bear (Dec 12, 2014)

Takai said:


> So it isn't "situational awareness" to be aware of issues in your surrounding and use the tools (and/or training) at your disposal to mediate them? I am guessing that someone "taught" you how to drive a car. And you probably could't/didn't use those mirrors properly all on your own. I know I had to be taught. 10 years ago I went to a driving school to get my CDL. I had been driving for years and guess what..I learned to how a "professional" uses their mirrors. It really wasn't that hard but it took sometime to make in an ingrained skill.
> 
> Saying that something can't be done in the face of people that are telling you they do it, did it and train people to do it seems to me to be a bit....arrogant.



my only personal investment in whether this works and to what extent is the amount of risk i personally face applying it.

so i get to have an opinion on this. I have done the training and get constantly assured everything works.

but they are not taking my punches for me if it doesn't.

there is no risk to the trainer if i get bashed.


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## Dylan9d (Dec 14, 2014)

drop bear said:


> as a concept not so much application



This is what we used to do when i was in Krav, i felt like it was good for conditioning and stamina but other than that a useless drill.

I think teaching awareness the knee and shoulder tapping is way better, to learn to fight against multiple attacker the 3 or 4 vs 1 sparring is way better to learn it, especially in mind that you always need to keep 1 attacker between you and the others.


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 14, 2014)

I like both ways of training but I also like putting everyone in a circle and saying "free for all" and letting them go at it.  That way everyone might be a friend one moment and an enemy the next.  Keeps your hed on a swivle and no you do not want to be on the ground in this one


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## K-man (Dec 14, 2014)

Dylan9d said:


> This is what we used to do when i was in Krav, i felt like it was good for conditioning and stamina but other than that a useless drill.
> 
> I think teaching awareness the knee and shoulder tapping is way better, to learn to fight against multiple attacker the 3 or 4 vs 1 sparring is way better to learn it, especially in mind that you always need to keep 1 attacker between you and the others.


Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.


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## ballen0351 (Dec 14, 2014)

That's why we have many different ways to train.  To say this way is useless could be true if this was the only drill ever done.  But as one part of many different drills it's got its place.


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## Dylan9d (Dec 15, 2014)

K-man said:


> Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.


It isn't completely useless, it's a great way to build stamina. We used to do that to practice this in a different and more intense way, the person in the middle keeps punching that bag on a high pace, then he got different attacks from all sides etc. It was a nice way to show what was left from a technique when you are tired.


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## K-man (Dec 15, 2014)

Dylan9d said:


> It isn't completely useless, it's a great way to build stamina. We used to do that to practice this in a different and more intense way, the person in the middle keeps punching that bag on a high pace, then he got different attacks from all sides etc. It was a nice way to show what was left from a technique when you are tired.


I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.


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## Dylan9d (Dec 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.


 
You are right. I like Systema also from the right teachers that is.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.



Which is an excellent approach.  Move and get to the outside, have your opponents have to move and get in each others way while you engage with one is always a good way to go.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2014)

K-man said:


> Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.



that is the basic result of two on one for us. Both guys smell blood and go straight in. And it is generally over pretty quickly.

just the wrong sort of guys to be training it.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Which is an excellent approach.  Move and get to the outside, have your opponents have to move and get in each others way while you engage with one is always a good way to go.



i used to play rugby. And that is the technique for getting past two people. Of course you also train the two people to keep you in the middle.

and they have the advantage because there is two of them.

but look sure. You can try it. It doesn't cost you all that much and you might get away with it. You would need to jink into the middle and hope one of them is drawn in. Then cut to the outside.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 16, 2014)

Multiple attackers are a real tough thing to deal with.  It is not going to be pretty and personally I would rather stack the odds in my favor by utilizing a tool/weapon to deal with them.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Multiple attackers are a real tough thing to deal with.  It is not going to be pretty and personally I would rather stack the odds in my favor by utilizing a tool/weapon to deal with them.



a weapon is always good. Might try to find that baseballs bat vs five(ish) guys.

the other thing from that video is have an exit strategy. Part of my running around like an idiot advice from earlier.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2014)




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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Of course you also train the two people to keep you in the middle.



Fortunately in many/most multiple attacker situations, the attackers won't have extensive training in fighting as a team. If they _are_ skilled in fighting as a team then it makes a bad situation much worse.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 16, 2014)

drop bear said:


>



Stupid, stupid, stupid! A car is a much better weapon than a baseball bat. If you have a gang of people after you and you are in an operational car, don't get out and engage hand to hand.


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## drop bear (Dec 16, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Stupid, stupid, stupid! A car is a much better weapon than a baseball bat. If you have a gang of people after you and you are in an operational car, don't get out and engage hand to hand.



ok i agree with that. And to be honest i would have driven off and called the cops. 

but people do what they do. And that was still a pretty good result.


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