# High Kicks In Okinawan Karate



## scottie (Aug 30, 2010)

I have trained in Okinawan Karate (Isshinryu) and most of our kicks were always below the waist. As a matter of fact the more think about it, I remember one of my Isshinryu Instructors saying that if he wanted to kick someone in the face. He would kick them in the groin first then once they bend over, he would kick them in the face. As I look at Japanese Karate ie. Shotokan and Kyokushin Karate, I see a lot higher kicks Like round and round house kicks to the face. I just wonder if that was added by Funakoshi to try to make karate accepted in Japan, or do we have high kicks in other Okinawan arts. Were they add as karate begins to be exposed to Korean arts??? I would be grateful for any insight. thanks


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## tshadowchaser (Aug 30, 2010)

I do not know about others but my instructor was much like yours, he wanted kicks lower than the chest.


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## chrispillertkd (Aug 30, 2010)

It's my understanding that high kicks were added to Shotokan not by Gishin Funakoshi but by his son, Yoshitaka. He also lowered the stances somewhat, making them less uprght than those associated with more "Okinawan-y" karate.

Pax,

Chris


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## dancingalone (Aug 30, 2010)

> I just wonder if that was added by Funakoshi to try to make karate  accepted in Japan, or do we have high kicks in other Okinawan arts. Were  they add as karate begins to be exposed to Korean arts???



Good question.  I doubt high kicks were taught or promoted by Gichin Funakoshi.  It probably came into vogue when free sparring was incorporated by many of the karate university clubs, which I understand was after Funakoshi Sensei passed away.

High kicks are not taught in any traditional Okinawan karate system I am aware of.  In fact, many routine techniques like mawashi geri or the heel yoko geri are not properly Okinawan karate either, although many dojo, mine included, teach them as sparring techniques.


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## scottie (Aug 30, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> It's my understanding that high kicks were added to Shotokan not by Gishin Funakoshi but by his son, Yoshitaka. He also lowered the stances somewhat, making them less uprght than those associated with more "Okinawan-y" karate.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



This could be another thread it's self if it get much discussion I will make it one.
Thanks Chris,
So Yoshitaka is really more responsible for Changing Okinawan Karate to make it more appealing to the Japanese, or to make them think is was Japanese. I have not studied this part of Karate history.


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## scottie (Aug 30, 2010)

I just found this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gigō_Funakoshi


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## terryl965 (Aug 30, 2010)

When I was involved in Okinawa Karate they never kicked higher than the solar-plex, it was consider being outside of one's balance for self defense purposes.


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## Victor Smith (Aug 30, 2010)

I started training in Isshinryu in 1974 or so.  We were always a blend of traditional Okinawan style kicking which was based on attacking the lower body and/or base and kicks as high as you could function with. One of my seniors who trained on Okinawa in 71-72 could perform absolutely perfect slow motion side kicks over head high and much more.  I continue to teach the same way low and non-low to the students ability.

The higher kicks didn't come from Okinawa but the influence of other systems and competion at tournaments.  We always are a function of what we rub up against (ie additional instructors).

But in my case I also studied the Chin Woo Tam Tuie with toe kicks (for chinese boots) aimed right at the ankle and just above. That makes 92% of all Okinawan kicks high kicks, except I also teach the use of stepping as a kicking practice which becomes lower than Tam Tuie.

Take a different example. Jhoon Rhee a noted TKD instructor didn't have Spinning kicks in his program from his stuides under General Choi in Korea and actually saw them first in the USA from other Korean stylists. Of course he adopted them too.

In the case of Shotokan there were more influences than Funakoshi Gigo. Many of the original students traveled in their jobs in the 30's to China, Korea, etc and brought those kicks (such as the round house) back to Japan some of which were adopted into Shotkan.

I once made the very big mistake of mentioning to a friend in Shotokan I competed against that Okinawan kicking was superior because it was lower. His father trained with Funakoshi in the 30's. He smiled and in an instane exploded from standing back into zenkatsu dachi and then drove a front kick (with control) into my mouth. Still smiling.

I believe in the efficiency of Okinawan style kicking (and there are differences between the systems), but excellence in anything works.


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## Manny (Aug 30, 2010)

I am not a karateka so I can say anithing about the way the karateka kick but I am a tae kwon doing and we have a pletora of fancy kicks to head level. Even those flashy-nasty high kicks look super inside the dojo/dojang I have to tell you that most of them are very dangerous for one's self to do in a real fight, it's pretty easy to loose the balance or the worst would be that our high kick  to be taken by our enemy.

When I started my kenpo karate lessosn my sensei told me in kenpo they kick to the head,but fisrt they kick the groing or the gut and when the scumbag bend in pais theu kicked the face or head, it seems to me a clever move.

Manny


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## seasoned (Aug 30, 2010)

Okinawan GoJu, low to medium kicks. The main reason for low kicks is because the art is a close in fighting system.


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## searcher (Aug 30, 2010)

For the two Okinawan systems I have BB rank in the highest kicks we use are abdominal(if we look at the traditional teaching), but I have raised the level of the kicks for training, not to take away from the original application, but to expose my students to alternative application.

If my students are to ever be competitive at knockdown karate, they have to be able to kick to the head andneed to train for such.    I have had discussions with my students about the original way of kicking in the forms and I make sure they know why we increased the range/height of the kicks when training.    Some of my students like to keep the kicks low, where others go more for a Japanese/Korean/American height on their kicks.    For my students it is more about their own abilities and where they are wanting to go on THEIR journey.    I give them options and they get to explore how they will apply their knowledge.


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## Omar B (Aug 30, 2010)

I totally understand the whole thought process behind keeping the kicks lower, it just plain makes sense.  But damn do I love kicking high.  Nothing screws with an opponent's head like being close, like punching range then suddenly he gets kicked in the head.  Really gives an attacker pause.


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## seasoned (Aug 31, 2010)

Omar B said:


> I totally understand the whole thought process behind keeping the kicks lower, it just plain makes sense. But damn do I love kicking high. Nothing screws with an opponent's head like being close, like punching range then suddenly he gets kicked in the head. Really gives an attacker pause.


Makes total sense, when you are young those legs just want to kick high. ( I loved it myself). As life would have it, as we get old, everything comes into perspective. Whether we want it to or not.


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 31, 2010)

seasoned said:


> Makes total sense, when you are young those legs just want to kick high. ( I loved it myself). As life would have it, as we get old, everything comes into perspective. Whether we want it to or not.



I agree.  My flexibility is about as good as it has ever been (which isn't saying a lot, I was never very flexible even when young), but I work very hard on careful stretching and I try hard for good, well-controlled, high kicks.  It really isn't happening for me, and I have to presume the situation will not improve a great deal for me at this point in my life.  I can kick higher in some ways by using different joints - for example, I can do an axe kick over my own head (not well-controlled yet, but that's different) because I have pretty flexible hips and can tuck my tailbone well.  But the front snap kick I can only get to the bottom of my jaw on the right, and maybe chest high on the left  That's it, that's all, no more.  My otoshi geri is far from horizontal, more like 45 degrees, and my side kicks are somewhat low too.

I just practice technique and power and don't worry a lot about kicking high.  Isshin-Ryu doesn't demand it of me anyway, so it's an ideal art for me.  We do, like many, practice high kicks too, even if they aren't in the art by definition; and we even practice kicks not used at all in Isshin-Ryu, and I give it my best shot.  But I can handle not being able to do the highest kicks.  Part of getting old.  I'm glad I don't do TKD, I'd be sunk!


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## terryl965 (Aug 31, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I agree. My flexibility is about as good as it has ever been (which isn't saying a lot, I was never very flexible even when young), but I work very hard on careful stretching and I try hard for good, well-controlled, high kicks. It really isn't happening for me, and I have to presume the situation will not improve a great deal for me at this point in my life. I can kick higher in some ways by using different joints - for example, I can do an axe kick over my own head (not well-controlled yet, but that's different) because I have pretty flexible hips and can tuck my tailbone well. But the front snap kick I can only get to the bottom of my jaw on the right, and maybe chest high on the left That's it, that's all, no more. My otoshi geri is far from horizontal, more like 45 degrees, and my side kicks are somewhat low too.
> 
> I just practice technique and power and don't worry a lot about kicking high. Isshin-Ryu doesn't demand it of me anyway, so it's an ideal art for me. We do, like many, practice high kicks too, even if they aren't in the art by definition; and we even practice kicks not used at all in Isshin-Ryu, and I give it my best shot. But I can handle not being able to do the highest kicks. Part of getting old. I'm glad I don't do TKD, I'd be sunk!


 
Bill I still do TKD but over the years my kick are lower and lower, mainly for the self defense that comes with it. All those high kicks are great in tournaments and that is what I tell all my people , but what I enjoy more is a great body shot that KO's someone, to me this is what real power should do.


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## Manny (Aug 31, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Bill I still do TKD but over the years my kick are lower and lower, mainly for the self defense that comes with it. All those high kicks are great in tournaments and that is what I tell all my people , but what I enjoy more is a great body shot that KO's someone, to me this is what real power should do.


 
Amen Terry, you are right! I am a TKD man too and can't kick as high as when I was in High School but believe me poor the guy who faces my back kick to the ribs!!

Manny


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## Brandon Fisher (Aug 31, 2010)

I have always been taught that kicks in Okinawa Karate were targeted towards the solar plexus and lower.  While in Okinawa this past spring and discussing kicking techniques with 2 different sensei's one isshin ryu and one goju ryu and isshin ryu, both said the same thing at 2 different times train the kicks high to help build the strength to kick low.  Food for thought if you ask me.


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## angrywhitepajamas (Sep 15, 2010)

Someone brought this up in the dojo I attend a few years ago.  The question was posted to one of our 4th degrees who had lived in okinowa as a child.
The smile that lit his face was like a child on Christmas morning, that alone should have been a warning.  Our 4th degree demand for a demonstration followed very soon after wards.  The student tried to kick the head of the 4th degree repeatedly, and was given replies from kata and kumite. 

Also the student who tried this was in his teens, the 4rth degree was in his 50's.  It was very painful to watch.


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## rlp271 (Sep 16, 2010)

Sounds about par for the course whenever you try to discuss the "merits" of high kicks in a self defense situation with someone who loves to show you their point rather than tell it to you.


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## BigRich (Sep 20, 2010)

I study two different styles of (Shobaiyashi Shorin-ryu and Shudokan) and both have low and mid body kicks.  On occasional a front snap kick with go to the brachia-plexus but generally the attitude is more along the lines of what others have said (if you want to kick him in the head, go for the or get him bent over first, then kick him in the head).


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## dancingalone (Sep 20, 2010)

BigRich said:


> I study two different styles of (Shobaiyashi Shorin-ryu and Shudokan) and both have low and mid body kicks.  On occasional a front snap kick with go to the brachia-plexus but generally the attitude is more along the lines of what others have said (if you want to kick him in the head, go for the or get him bent over first, then kick him in the head).



I'm curious if you practice 2 different versions of the same kata, since I believe Shobayashi and Shudokan have overlapping forms.


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## Brandon Fisher (Sep 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm curious if you practice 2 different versions of the same kata, since I believe Shobayashi and Shudokan have overlapping forms.


If so I give props that would be hard to do.


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## BigRich (Sep 21, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I'm curious if you practice 2 different versions of the same kata, since I believe Shobayashi and Shudokan have overlapping forms.


 
No.  When we have kata that overlap and there are differences in execution we practice it the Shorin Ryu way as it tends to be accepted as the more traditional.


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## dancingalone (Sep 21, 2010)

BigRich said:


> No.  When we have kata that overlap and there are differences in execution we practice it the Shorin Ryu way as it tends to be accepted as the more traditional.



I see.  Do you practice any of the unique Shudokan kata like the reserved Kyoku kata?  There's also some higher black belt forms like Soshin, etc.


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