# What's in a name?!



## stanley neptune (May 13, 2004)

Sifu, Sigung, Soke, Shifu, Sensei, Sempai, Professor, Great & Glorious Grandmaster, Grand Poohbah.....

All I can say is you Kenpo guys really are in to the fancy titles. (I am a kenpo guy too by the way.) I don't get it. All that should matter is ability and wisdom. 

Take some of the discussion on the "Who is Fred Villari?" thread. You guys spend so much time worrying about when did Great and Glorious Grand Master Parker give Nick Cerio the title of Sigung (Sifu, Shifu Sensei....I don't know!!)

WHO CARES!!!!

A 20 year old kid with a year in Muay Thai or Mixed Martial Arts could hand a beat down to some chubby old sigung. A college age golden glove boxer could open up a can of whoopass on old Professor Sensei Sempai Soke. 

Titles don't mean anything. It is the wisdom and knowledge coupled with ability that serve as the delivery system that imparts these qualities to the next generation. That is all that matters. 

Unless you are more interested in developing some phoney baloney oriental mystique to go along with the lime green temple dogs  and the phony oriental scrolls in your kwoon (studio, dojo, dojang) just drop the names. Or at least deemphasize them in favor of conveying the right message. Kenpo is an american system despite Demasco and Mattera's best efforts to link it to Shaolin. (It's funny Communist China takes a page from the capitalist west by prostituting one of it's most sacred traditions. Any clown can go and train at Shaolin as if it is Disney World for martial artists.)

I will take ability over title any day.

Stanley Neptune


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## pete (May 13, 2004)

> Kenpo is an american system


at least american-ized, like pizza, frankfurters, and french fries.  

agree on the name thing, though it would be an honor for one to be bestowed on you by a "master" that you admire.  no different that the red stripes past a certain point when they become more honorific.


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## MisterMike (May 13, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> A 20 year old kid with a year in Muay Thai or Mixed Martial Arts could hand a beat down to some chubby old sigung. A college age golden glove boxer could open up a can of whoopass on old Professor Sensei Sempai Soke.
> 
> Titles don't mean anything. It is the wisdom and knowledge coupled with ability that serve as the delivery system that imparts these qualities to the next generation. That is all that matters.
> 
> ...




Title means more than rank. Who can beat down who does not matter. There's more to it than that in the martial arts. If title is given when it is earned it does matter, just like rank.

I agree some titles seem to have been added to American Kenpo. The only ones I know of in American Kenpo are along the lines of Student, Teacher, Professor, Grand Master, etc. Notice they are all English.

Practitioners with mixed backgrounds are entitled to keep their titles.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 13, 2004)

I couldn't agree more.  Before the UFC's, when the challenge matches were in-studio, watched many a high-falutin', well-titled MA-ist go down under the choke of even beginning BJJ students.  Like Mike said, though, I think the function is one of distinction.  You don't see it so much in kenpo, because (at least used to be) kenpo systems are more stingy with their ranks.  But in systems where you can have half a dozen 10th degree blacks in the room, how do you know who the boss is?  

Traditionally, there was the head of a system (the grandfather, so to speak), and then a buncha great uncles, and then the next layer down of 1st gens who trained with the original crew.  Titles were a way of denoting position and respect to the top echelon of a given tradition; to set the grampa and great uncles apart from the bulk of the Kwoon...I mean, Clan...I mean, Kai...I mean, Ryu...aw, forget it.

Even members of the executive board of a corporation have different titles, aimed at denoting some slight variations of authority within the corporate structure.  But it's all internal.  The CEO of IBM can make 'em shake in their boots in his own back yard, but won't even warrant a second glance in a Mom-&-Pop operation with people who don't even know who he is.

My own take.

Dave


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## Touch Of Death (May 13, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Sifu, Sigung, Soke, Shifu, Sensei, Sempai, Professor, Great & Glorious Grandmaster, Grand Poohbah.....
> 
> All I can say is you Kenpo guys really are in to the fancy titles. (I am a kenpo guy too by the way.) I don't get it. All that should matter is ability and wisdom.
> 
> ...


Last time we checked professor is an English word; so, that is what we call our... er... professor.
sean


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## Thesemindz (May 13, 2004)

At our school black belts and instructors are called Mr. or Mrs. whatevertheirlastnameis. For instance, I'm Mr. Sandwell, and my instructor is Mr. Sturgess. If I wanted to be really, really, formal. I'd call him Mr. Theron Sturgess. That would make me, Mr. Rob Sandwell. Even Mr. Parker is reffered to as Mr. Parker. That's one of the things I've always liked about our school. As a title, Mr. carries alot more weight in my mind then Sifu, Sigung, Master, or Grandmaster. It always felt more American to me as well. After all, we call out president Mr. President. I like that.


-Rob


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## Mark L (May 13, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> All that should matter is ability and wisdom.


Of course.  But which one is most important?  You can have one without the other.



> A 20 year old kid with a year in Muay Thai or Mixed Martial Arts could hand a beat down to some chubby old sigung. A college age golden glove boxer could open up a can of whoopass on old Professor Sensei Sempai Soke.


Should the sigung or professor relinquish his title/rank to the youngster because his physical prowess has diminished?  Do you think the young bucks can learn nothing from their elders?



> Titles don't mean anything. It is the wisdom and knowledge coupled with ability that serve as the delivery system that imparts these qualities to the next generation. That is all that matters.
> 
> I will take ability over title any day.
> 
> Stanley Neptune



It is the wisdom and knowledge and _the ability to convey it to the next generation_ that matters.  Are we saying the same thing?  

Cus D'Amato was Mike Tysons trainer early in his career, I'm sure Tyson could kick his ***.  That fact didn't preclude Tyson from learning a whole lot about fighting from the old guy, even after his physical abilities were significantly diminished.

BTW, my teachers title is Greg.


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## c2kenpo (May 13, 2004)

> Sifu, Sigung, Soke, Shifu, Sensei, Sempai, Professor, Great & Glorious Grandmaster, Grand Poohbah.....




Grand Poohbah......After all of the serious titles you put up here you close it with Great and Glorius Grandmaster......and Grand Phoobah...

First I agree that a title is given AFTER it is EARNED. 
Whatever the title, it has no reflection on the ability to share the knowledge it carries with it in some cases. I know one instructor that out of love we say Grand Phoobah (only in casual settings and not on the training floor) is an AMAZING intructor that has the ability to convey complex ideas of motion and physics into simple taske that a class of beggining students can use and understand and put in to practice. I also know and instructor that is called "Master" and has a high rank in the system he teaches yes I never see any growth in his student base and a common thread is .."I didn't get it"

As far as watching some 20 yr old Muy Thai fighter come in and wipe the floor with the aging instructor??
Let me suggest you DON't try that anyhwere. I know too many in the MA world that have "been there / had that / And he had his lesson"

A "title" simply put can be one of respect or of love. I use many examples of them,  the one I use the most, and to me shows the most amount of respect to whom I am speaking with is simply 

Sir or Mam

I think we are on the same lines of thought I hope. 

David Gunzburg


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## Rick Wade (May 13, 2004)

If you are saying that we should maintain the Japanese name like shodan, nidan so on and so forth.  I will point out this.  I ask Sensi Bobby Lowe who teaches traditional Karate from Masa Oyma why don't you count in Japanese?  He said you know why they count in Japanese in Japan?  Because that is what they speak.  With that being said what are we going to call ourselves?  Because Shodan does not mean first degree Black Belt.  It mean first step.  I like the way American Kenpo has it set up.  

1st Black	             Junior Instructor
2nd Black	             Assistant Instructor
3rd Black	             Head Instructor
4th Black	             Senior Instructor
5th Black	             Associate Professor
6th Black	             Professor
7th Black	             Senior Professor
8th Black	             Associate Master
9th Black	             Master
10th Black	Senior Master of the Art


With that being said very few Black Belt say call me Associate Proffesor Smith.  Most of the say Call me Mr. Smith or Mrs. Smith depending.


Respectfully


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 13, 2004)

Rick Wade said:
			
		

> If you are saying that we should maintain the Japanese name like shodan, nidan so on and so forth. I will point out this. I ask Sensi Bobby Lowe who teaches traditional Karate from Masa Oyma why don't you count in Japanese? He said you know why they count in Japanese in Japan? Because that is what they speak. With that being said what are we going to call ourselves? Because Shodan does not mean first degree Black Belt. It mean first step. I like the way American Kenpo has it set up.
> 
> 1st Black     Junior Instructor
> 2nd Black     Assistant Instructor
> ...


On what you're wearing?


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## Rick Wade (May 13, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> On what you're wearing?




I was just using Smith as an example.  I know some very good female black belts.


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## wisdomstrikes (May 13, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Sifu, Sigung, Soke, Shifu, Sensei, Sempai, Professor, Great & Glorious Grandmaster, Grand Poohbah.....
> 
> All I can say is you Kenpo guys really are in to the fancy titles. (I am a kenpo guy too by the way.) I don't get it. All that should matter is ability and wisdom.
> 
> ...


Your points are well taken, thanks.
-Wisdomstrikes


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## 8253 (May 14, 2004)

the funny thing is that when I started learning Kenpo I was never taught any of these fancy names, we went just on a first name basis and learned the techniques and forms and learned how to expand upon them.


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## RRouuselot (May 14, 2004)

After living in Asia for more than 20 years I think I can say I am some what of an informed person on certain aspects asian customs and culture.


Titles like sensei, senpai sifu etc were a way for the student(s) to show resepct to their teacher. 
People should never call themselves sensei, senpai or sifu, etc.........only uninformed or stupid people would call refer to themselves using such titles.

Dont even get me started on how stupid it is to use the term "Soke" A term used mainly by moronic western martial artists that are totally clueless as to its meaning.


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## Karazenpo (May 14, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Sifu, Sigung, Soke, Shifu, Sensei, Sempai, Professor, Great & Glorious Grandmaster, Grand Poohbah.....
> 
> All I can say is you Kenpo guys really are in to the fancy titles. (I am a kenpo guy too by the way.) I don't get it. All that should matter is ability and wisdom.
> 
> ...



Stanley, you have a point and I tend to agree but it's not as simple as that with me. You see, I never used titles, still don't at my schools. I go by "Joe". Here's what happened to me. When I first got hooked up with Professor Cerio in the late 80's, he recognized my rank and gave me the title of 'sensei' but I never used it. In 1992 when he tested me for 6th, he awarded me the title of shihan. Appreciated it and was honored of course, but never used it. At this time time we were involved together setting up police training seminars for the U.S. Police Defensive Tactics Association and were going all over. Seminars were open to law enforcemnt personnel and reputable martial arts instructors who wished to learn how to teach police officers in defensive tactics and liability. Professor Cerio got a little upset with me because my people who attended called me 'Joe'. I also spoke to Hanshi Craig Seavey about this at one time because he never used titles until he joined Professor Cerio's organization. I explained to him I felt it was better to go by our names like we used to than to use titles. He told me that it was proper protocol to utilize titles in the traditional martial arts world. He has had many seminars at his main school in Framingham with such notables as Tadashi Yamashita, Fumio Demoura, Kimo Ferrierra, George Pesare, Larry Garron, and the list goes on. These men all used titles at the seminars. It's one of those deals, 'when in Rome, do as the Romans do', lol. I don't know if you still go to seminars or train with various traditional martial artists but if you do I'm sure you would want to show them the proper respect and not offend anyone by breaking their protocol. I still feel uncomfortable using titles so I reached a compromise. I use my title when it comes to most written correspondance involving the martial arts, like on this forum. I may use Professor Joe like Joe Rebelo uses KENPOJOE, when Joe and I are together we simply call each other "Joe", lol. I use my title when signing certificates. I don't use my title when teaching at all. If, however, I am a guest instructor at a school and that is their protocol and preference such as at Hanshi Seavey's than I respect their wishes. I don't believe in using titles at all outside the schools. Hanshi Seavey and I are very close friends and socialize periodically and I simply call him 'Craig' but if I'm attending a seminar he's hosting I follow his protocol. I believe there is nothing wrong with respecting others beliefs and traditions as long as they are of no detriment. So to me, it's no big deal! Respectfully, 'The Great Kahuna of Kempo' Joe, LOL.

PS: The part about Cerio's title you mentioned was just an answer to a question raised, that's what these forums are for. I never dodge a question and if I don't have the answer I attempt to find it. There was no harm in KENPOJOE's question on Professor Cerio's title and Mr. Parker. Students and fellow instructors ask us things all the time, we just like to have the answers for them when they ask, the right ones, that is!  Isn't one's knowledge increased when questions are asked? Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## stanley neptune (May 14, 2004)

Professor Joe,

I referred to the Nick Cerio title question in effect and I was paraphrasing. I am sure I did not quote the question verbatim. That being said I certainly, especially being from the New England area, meant NO DISRESPECT to Nick Cerio. The man, god rest his soul, is justifiably a revered institution in the region. While never having met the man I know only good things of him.

And you oh wise and mighty professor (I am just kidding) sound like a quality guy from the many posts you have authored. Some day I hope we get to train together although I am a mere neophyte compared to you. My Journey has taken many paths from the days of Harvey Thaler and Rino Tonelli some 30 years ago and do not hold a similar rank as you. I have the utmost respect for your rank and the ranks of your peers.

Stanley Neptune


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## Nightingale (May 14, 2004)

Everyone I've trained with has simply been "Mr." or "Ms.", even though they could use "Master" or "Professor" if they chose.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (May 14, 2004)

After having been raised in a severe environment (MA-wise) with strict attention to P's & Q's, then having reproduced it in my first attempts at teaching, I've kinda killed the whole title thing, except as is appropriate in the company of other artists (as Karazenpo sed, "when in rome..").

Mostly, I encourage my students to call me Dave, or sometimes, knot-head (rarely, if ever, butt-face).

Seriously, some of the nicest guys I've met in the MA were also the least formal, but that didn't stop them from being the most informative.  Mr. Bob White (known ceremoniously as "Mr. White") is one of ther best coaches a kenpoista is going to find. He is also one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet. Never toots his own horn, and is perpetually interested in finding out were you're at, and helping you improve.  The Grand Poo-Bah thing never enters the picture, even though this is one of Mr. Parkers more senior students, with knowledge out the wazoo and a string of student accomplishments that would make any instructor beam...never heard him exercise his well-earned bragging rights.

The Gracie Academy, Torrance, circa early nineties had guys coming in to take the Gracie Challenge.  You would think, since they walked in with a tude, the Gracies would have met their bravado with like energy.  Nope. Can't tell you how many times Rorion offered to make guys a smoothie at the smoothie bar who had just walked in with monstrous chips on their shoulders, ready to brawl.  Rolling with Royce or Rickson, it was never, "Super-dooper awesome dude of really serious rank/accomplishment, I have a question about the specifics on a technique?"  It was more like, "Royce...how do you do this?". Even jocular, most of the time. "Hey, Royce...how does one do this move without looking like a monkey?" ... "Dehbid..dawn mehk mee chawk yoo."  A little more serious with Rickson till you got acquainted with him, but still always very sociable and very nice. Another ultimate gentleman.

As for titles in kenpo? Try to guess where/who this quote comes from: "Only in da class. Otherwise, just call me Ed. Mr. Parker was my Dad's name. *big grin*"

I think titles are good for certs, and mayber business cards to impress the uninformed public (ya gotta make a buck, and what the sheep don't understand, unfortunately impresses them).  Other then that, they seem to be for the satisfaction of small egos.  Been looking on the web, and there's some bozo who's granted himself -- or had granted to him by his partners in crime -- all sorts of silly poo-bah-esque titles.  Has literally over a dozen ryu's listed under his name, with acu-titles and ranks for each one of them. (i.e., shodan-ryu, Shihan; Nidan-ryu, Hanshi).  

There's that old joke that the only people saying "size doesn't matter" are the guys who ain't packin, and the women who have settled for them.

Out.

D.


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## Karazenpo (May 15, 2004)

stanley neptune said:
			
		

> Professor Joe,
> 
> I referred to the Nick Cerio title question in effect and I was paraphrasing. I am sure I did not quote the question verbatim. That being said I certainly, especially being from the New England area, meant NO DISRESPECT to Nick Cerio. The man, god rest his soul, is justifiably a revered institution in the region. While never having met the man I know only good things of him.
> 
> ...



Thanks much, Stanley. Your kind words don't go unappreciated. I'm sure we can learn from each other, that's what it's all about. My door is always open to you if you are ever in the area, please just let me know ahead of time so I'll make sure I'm there. You are a very open and honest person which is good to see in today's society. Respectfully, Professor Joe


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## kroh (May 24, 2004)

Just two cents...

If the whole class is taught in the language of the art's country of origin...

Then these titles "could " be correct ( depending on whether or not the person in charge was using them correctly).  

I agree with the above poster who said that the reason they count in that certain language in the country of origin is that they speak that language.  

The titles for the most part are pretty goofy ( just my opinion ).  Adam Hsu, who has been practicing chinese martial arts for years wrote that the only time he ever saw some one called something other than "teacher" was when he came to the U.S. and these insturcors with over developed sense of self started using other words.   

Often times these titles are meant to be written only.  The closest equivalent in America would be where you have a physician with more than one type of expertise.  His title is written as phd********* where the * refer to other areas.   When he introduces himself he won't call him self doctor****** SoAndSO, they just say I am Doctor SoAndSO.

The whole thing is for people who feel the need to elevate themselves in one way or another.  Marketing tool or self gratification device... either way, titles really don't do it for me.  Now if i walk into a MA school and the instructor introduces himself as "Joe" ...I am more likely to stay and see what they have to offer.   If some one steps up and introduces themselves as Grand Master Willy Wonka...I am more likely to step out of the building politely while they are not looking.   

The whole thing is out of control....

Anyhoo it is just two cents....Take it or leave it...
WalT


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## Karazenpo (May 24, 2004)

kroh said:
			
		

> Just two cents...
> 
> If the whole class is taught in the language of the art's country of origin...
> 
> ...



I totally agree with most of what you posted. I do feel if the system you study believes in awarding titles then that should be respected with some flexibility. Like I had posted earlier, for years my original instructors simply used first names and that is where I acquired my foundation or 'identity' so until this day I use my first name. Titles are not required in either of my schools. Possibly when I bow out an instructor or introduce an instructor I will use his/her formal title but for the most part I'm pretty informal and use first names. However, if a title is legitimately earned or bestowed I do feel it should be used in all written documents regarding the martial arts, that's my 'compromise' on the issue and I always respect the protocol when I visit other schools. I would like to also comment on titles being used in this country. I'm not taking issue with what the Chinese instructor stated about 'teacher' and the Chinese martial arts but as a follower of martial arts history and tradition, titles have been used in Okinawa and Japan for centuries. Do I think they are over used here in the U.S.? Absolutely! They are just as abused as the 'coveted' 10th dan and all the 'so-called' newly created systems or what I refer to as 're-inventing the wheel'! I don't mean to offend anyone or their system but it's my opinion it's all overdone. How many different ways are there to fight someone since, generally speaking, we all have two arms and two legs? Like I quoted Jimmy Woo: "Americans believe there are different styles of fighting when actually they are different styles of teaching."  Hey, the Okinawans took what they wanted to learn from Kung Fu and created and taught 'Karate", know what I mean? One other thing, I'm totally against using titles at all outside the schools but that's just my opinion, I know others feel differently and I respect that.


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