# Chicago Dojo Wars



## Kirk (Jan 17, 2002)

Do any of you have any details about the Chicago Dojo Wars??
I would love to hear the story about this, if anyone knows of
it.  I spent quite awhile surfing the web for it, and can't find
any info on it.  Can anyone hook me up?


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## fist of fury (Jan 17, 2002)

yeah I searched too but culdn't find anything. I'd be interested if somebody knows.


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## GouRonin (Jan 18, 2002)

If you check out the 24th issue of Black Belt magazine dated December 1965, you'll see a blurb about a group from Buffalo that called itself "'The Buffalo Black Belt Society' that vowed to police the ranks of the martial arts in upstate New York. Fake masters beware!"

Unknown if they actually did anything though...


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## fist of fury (Jan 18, 2002)

Well I wouldn't want anyone killed but maybe something like that too weed out all the mcdojo's


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Do any of you have any details about the Chicago Dojo Wars??*



What is the issue here?


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## Kirk (Jan 18, 2002)

Just idle curiosity as to what actually happened at the dojo that
night/day.


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## arnisador (Jan 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Just idle curiosity as to what actually happened at the dojo that
> night/day. *



Sorry, I know nothing at all about this--what are the Chicago Dojo Wars?


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## Kirk (Jan 18, 2002)

Let me first say that what I repeat here, is what I was told, not
necessarily FACTUAL.  Count Dante (real name unknown) a.k.a
"Count Dynamite" was the instructor/sifu/sensei of The Black
Dragons school in Chicago.  They'd have dojo challenges all
the time, and one strong rival in that area was The Green 
Dragons school.  One time, the fight in the dojo with MANY
students resulted in all present pulling various weapons off the
wall of the dojo they were in, and there were/was deaths.
Count Dante's friend and student (name unknown) died in this
"war".  Count Dante was so distraught by it, he inevitably died
from bleeding ulcers, which were a direct result of his feeling
so bad about the death of his friend.  

The "Count " came because he was true (British?) royalty.

Why the fight happened, why it escalated, how many students
were there, what were the injuries, ect.  Anyone know?  There's
hardly anything that I can find about it on the web.


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Let me first say that what I repeat here, is what I was told, not necessarily FACTUAL.*



Fair enough.



> *
> Count Dante (real name unknown) a.k.a
> "Count Dynamite" was the instructor/sifu/sensei of The Black Dragons school in Chicago.  They'd have dojo challenges all the time*



I remember Count Dante--he had full-page ads in comic books all the time for his deadly system. We think correspondence systems are new with the Internet and video but it isn't that simple. I honestly didn't think he had an actual school--I assumed he was principally a businessman making his money by selling self-defense lessons through the mail. (I don't recall if he offered rank or a certificate or just lessons). He was a well-known character due to his ads.



> *
> The "Count " came because he was true (British?) royalty.*



I'd be suspicious of that--for starters, it's Earl in the UK system, not Count (though the wife of an Earl is a Countess; see also here and here.) Also, Dante does not sound like a British surname or place name--it's an Italian first name.

He was always just a figure in a comic book ad to me--I'd be curious to hear more!


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## GouRonin (Jan 20, 2002)

"Count Dante" = John Keehan. Not a real Count. Self given through his ranking.

April 23/1970,  The dojo war caused the stabbing death of Jim Koncevic.

The Count died of bleeding ulcers in 1975.

Yes he was the guy in the back of comic books.


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## Kirk (Jan 20, 2002)

Kewl, one "fact" discounted.  He's not royalty.  Anyone else
know any details of the event?


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## arnisador (Jan 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Kewl, one "fact" discounted.  He's not royalty. *



A count would be noble but not in general royal (unless say he were a prince who was also a count, e.g. Prince Edward of the UK who is also an Earl). In any event, it appears that as expected Count Dante was neither!

What did the ads say? Ah yes, the "Deadliest Man Alive".

Web searches on Count Dante turn up many odd items. I notice there is a band that has taken on this name.

http://www.ashidakim.com/history.html
http://www.the-snu.co.uk/dante.html
(A larger ad appears on the latter site.)


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## superdave (Jan 24, 2002)

Here is another site on Count Dante. According to this article he created the martial arts. So we all owe him a great deal of gratitude.http://www.countdante.com


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## Rob_Broad (Jan 25, 2002)

I know the Ashida Kim webpage refers to Count Dante.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 25, 2002)

'Count Dante's' full name was Juan Raphael Dante, right?  Did he speak with a hispanic accent at all?  You'd imagine that a Spanish noble would speak with some sort of accent.  I just can't see how so many people fell for this guy's B.S.

Have you seen his pictures?  All of his poses look like something from those 'They Call Me Bruce' movies, except those were *supposed* to be funny.

Cthulhu


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 2, 2002)

Did not Black Belt Magizine carry a few articals on the full event some time after? If I remember correctly Count Dante and 3 to 5 of his students "visited" a local Chinese School, seems like Dante and the Schools instructor (can't remember name) had said crude things about each other. Anyway upon entering they faced a gauntlet with the Sifu standing on the other end, the students inbetween where all armed with knives hatchets etc. 
All of Dante's students where seriously injured one killed. Dante it is said actually made it trough the line but collasped at the feet o the Sifu.
There have been a few articles on this event over the years but all seem to be just retelling of the original story I read many years ago.
Has anyone tried contacting Black Belt Mag. to see if they have th artical in their arcives?
Shadow


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## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

That story sounds like a load of cr@p to me.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2002)

Soory But I do not spin tales. The question was asked I answered to the best of my memory. 
I didnt say all facts where true just what I recalled being printed at the time.
If you are not old enough to remember when instructors would fight open wars for territory  it not my fault. Times have changed now peope sue if you look cross ways at them.Back then you fought for your territory and the winnner stayed the loser whent to the hospital, then went somewhere else to set up shop.
The fact remains one student killed 3 or 4 injured And that was just Dante's people and they where not in their own dojo 
How true the repored facts where I can not say and if I remember correctly Dante was always reluctant to speck on the subject.
Dose the Chigo Tribune have a morgue that might have the info
Shadow


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## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

I am not saying that you are full of cr@p. Just that the story is.

C'mon. Who is gonna walk through a gauntlet of knives and hatchets? And on Dante made it through only to fall at the feet of the school's owner?

There were dojo wars. Dante and crew did go to another school with bad intentions. Things did get out of hand and a fight did erupt. A weapon was pulled by one or two people. One person died as a result. Dante regretted it to his dying day.

But come on...that report makes it sound like it was a ritualized fight to prove how tough Dante was. This is the same guy who advertised in comic books for cryin' out loud as to his hands of death!

If you're gulible enough to believe that line of spew they supposedly called "facts" as they reported it, then "it's not my fault."

Really.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2002)

Never said I belived all of it, anything reported by newspapers is subject to miss quotes and possibly bad information due to people giveing misleading facts.
I'll try to contact the Chicago tribune , Chicago public libary, and Black Belt Mag. to see if I can get an arcive artical on the whole thing. That obviously will take some time but give me time and I'll report back with the info I get(hopefully I can get it)
Shadow


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## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

As time goes by the story always changes. I'm sure by now it's reached epic proportions but it will be interesting to hear.

Thanx for taking the time and effort to dig it up.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2002)

didn't mean to sound bitchy misinterpeted
your c**p sentence. As i said well return to this thread if I can get the information
Change of subject just looked across the street and there is a moose standing n front of the police station. Damn either I am hullusinating or this town I live in is getting stranger. Wounder if they will give it a ticket for not putting money in the parking meter
Sheldon
Aka Shadow


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## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

Moose! Thems good eatin'!


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## Kirk (Feb 3, 2002)

I too appreciate your looking into this matter.  How do you go
about contacting these agencies?  

have you truly eaten moose before (not mouse) Gou?


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## GouRonin (Feb 3, 2002)

I have eaten many things...including but not limited to:
Deer, Elk, Moose, Yak, Bison, Boar, Ostrich, Emmu, Rabbit, Snake and more. If it has walked, crawled, or fallen on God's green earth at one point then I have taken a bite out of it most likely.

I love flesh.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 3, 2002)

The three that I mentioned have e-mail addresses. The paper and libary will have arcival search abilities would think Black Belt Mag.would also . Might cost a little I think its $20 for the paper not sure on the others.
Seems like the moose just wanderd into town down one of the side street to main st. The Game warrden finaly had to knock it down with a medical dart.  Darn thing stayed at the side of the police station for over 3 hours. They will let it lose somewhere in the wood.


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## fist of fury (Feb 4, 2002)

I'm definatley intrested in hearing what you find out.  Too bad you can't challenge schools anymore there's a load of mcdojo's in my town that should be weeded out. 
But I guess there good for kids.


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## Kirk (Feb 7, 2002)

> Too bad you can't challenge schools anymore there's a load of mcdojo's in my town that should be weeded out.




I totally agree!


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## Yari (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *I'm definatley intrested in hearing what you find out.  Too bad you can't challenge schools anymore there's a load of mcdojo's in my town that should be weeded out.
> But I guess there good for kids. *



Sorry, I don't believe that they could be good for kids. If the intenstion (sp?) is wrong from the start, ie. scraping alot of money to the owner, then this will reflect in everything else. I don't want my kids to be influenced by that.


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## fist of fury (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> *
> 
> Sorry, I don't believe that they could be good for kids. If the intenstion (sp?) is wrong from the start, ie. scraping alot of money to the owner, then this will reflect in everything else. I don't want my kids to be influenced by that. *



Yeah I guess your right. I was thinking those as more of an exercise class/day care. But most of the mcdojo instructors tell thier students what they teach is applicable to self defense. I shall go punish myself.


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## Yari (Feb 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by fist of fury _
> *
> 
> I shall go punish myself.  *



OK  :boing2:  LOL... You could try and inflict a dobble armbare lock with a single slap kick , done with a pain crusher.... and then send in the picture....... ;-)


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## fist of fury (Feb 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yari _
> *
> 
> OK  :boing2:  LOL... You could try and inflict a dobble armbare lock with a single slap kick , done with a pain crusher.... and then send in the picture....... ;-) *



:erg: 
While attempting to take the picture myself I ended up get my head stuck in my @ss again.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 12, 2002)

To anyone interested if you go to the site for Black Belt Magizine  and use there search with the listing  John Keehan you will find a number of articles about the man. The one everyone is interested in is #4. 
Still have not recieved replys from the Chicago paper, will notify you if and when I do.
I was wrong about some of the facts but still think I have seen another version of the story. Anyway this one seems to be more resonable.
Checkout the first(#1) article also. This man was deffinately out there somewhere in his own world
Shadow


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 13, 2002)

http://www.blackbeltmag.com/archives/blackbelt/1970/aug70/bbt.html
Try this:


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2002)

You did it!  That was the detailed info I was looking for!
AWESOME!  Thanks for the info!


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## vincefuess (Feb 13, 2002)

Yo Kirk!  You asked this same question in another forum and I thought I gave a fairly complete analysis.  As John Keehan was an instructor under Robert Trias' association- you may find out more about what actually went down by researching the topic in "karate"- particularly "Japanese Karate" forums, where the folks who were there might actually be.  If you you are that interested in the pursuit of that topic, find some of the descendants of the school (I understand that John Keehan aka Count Dante promoted about 250 to black belt- surely many are still around!).

I'll poke around a bit, and I'll let you know if I find a direction that looks fruitful.

Vince


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## Kirk (Feb 13, 2002)

I did ask the same question in several forums, but could never
find out DETAILED facts about it.  Most of what I got was "there
was a fight at a dojo in chicago ... Count Dante, who's not really
a count was there,  his buddy died, Dante felt like crap about
it".   So I tried here, and to my luck, I got so much more of
the details of what actually happened. ... And I appreciate it!


I'm just one of those types of guys that loves hearing the details
of stories.  When someone tells me a personal story, after they're
done, I always go "okay, so lets back up here .. and I ask like
 a billion questions, as the story is painted in my head" ... it's
anal, I know ... but it's me.


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## arnisador (Feb 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *John Keehan aka Count Dante promoted about 250 to black belt- surely many are still around*



I wonder what became of them! I wonder if any are still teaching his art or if they have all changed to something else (either studying a new art or renaming his to something else). One apparently is Ashida Kim.


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## vincefuess (Feb 13, 2002)

Man, even before I posted the message, the answer was there for you!!  That's what I call service.  Very interesting link, I enjoyed reading all of it.

As to the Ashida Kim link- I'm not sure whether to laugh or be afraid.  It's too realistic to be a joke, yet too stupid to be real.

AAARRRRGHHH!!


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## fist of fury (Feb 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by vincefuess _
> *Man, even before I posted the message, the answer was there for you!!  That's what I call service.  Very interesting link, I enjoyed reading all of it.
> 
> As to the Ashida Kim link- I'm not sure whether to laugh or be afraid.  It's too realistic to be a joke, yet too stupid to be real.
> ...


Yes he calims he an actual ninja. When I was youmger I was dumb enough to buy into his hype. I still have some of his books.
:shrug:


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## arnisador (Feb 27, 2002)

From the 1970 Black Belt article mentioned before:



> JUDO TAKES TO THE AIR
> 
> By Mildred Carr
> 
> SEOUL, Korea - Each overseas flight of the Korean Airlines will have a judo expert on board as a precautionary step against hijackers or "other unruly passengers," an airlines spokesman announced. Thirteen highly skilled judoka have been assigned to serve as stewards on the international flights to Japan and Southeast Asia. This program was started as a result of the hijacking of a Korean turbo-prop plane by a North Korean spy. This is the first time an airline has officially initiated a martial arts program on its flights.





> CHINESE MARTIAL ARTISTS CONVENE FOR CONFERENCE
> 
> By John T. McGee
> 
> NEW YORK CITY -Alan Lee and the Chinese Kung Fu-Wu Su ***'n were hosts to a group of masters in the Chinese fighting arts. The association, under Lee's direction, put on an exciting and highly informative demonstration. Afterwards, a conference was held in which the guests participated. The questions discussed included: "Should a ranking system similar to that used in karate be instituted in kung-fu?"; "Are diplomas necessary?"; and "Is the idea of a national kung-fu association tenable at the present time?"


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## kenposcum (Aug 16, 2002)

From what I understand (me being the puppy that I am), the dojo wars were not just one isolated incident, but many throughout the late sixties and early seventies.  I will hassle my instructor for more info and report back, tootsweet.  
A caveat: any info I recieve will probably be of the strictly anecedotal variety, sorry.:asian:


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## tonbo (Aug 16, 2002)

Truly a "bad-name" day for the martial arts, when this all took place.  

Yeah, I know these kind of things happened.  My head instructor's father is a survivor of the "old school" challenge days.  I can see why people did it, but am still amazed at the levels to which it went.

Unbelievable.

Anyway, thanks for digging that info up!!

Peace--


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## J-kid (Aug 16, 2002)

I was thinking SOMEONE should start a web page listing mcdojos. Alot has changed since the 70s  we cant go around beating the crap out of every person who makes a Mcdojo.  But we can worn people about them... Just a idea,,   Your friend Judo-kid


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## Aikikitty (Aug 16, 2002)

This is the first I every heard about the whole thing!!!  GRRRRRR!  The whole thing strongly reminds me of one of those bad dojos in the Karate Kid movies only 500 times worse! :angry: :flammad: :wah: 

It's when something stupid like that happens and so everybody hears about it and many people think ALL martial art people are like that and they would NEVER allow there kid to even think about taking martial arts!!!!! :soapbox: :wah: 

Robyn :wah: :waah: :vu:


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## kenposcum (Aug 30, 2002)

Well, there are an awful lot of "McDojos" out there spewing an awful lot of crap, and they make an inordinate amount of money swindling people and telling them lies.  I met a guy at Denny's a few years ago who had been studying for ten years and had a grand total of 36 degrees of black.  "Uh-huh," I said, holding back my fury.  The idea of going around to these schools and beating the ever-loving mess out of the charlatan instructors is not a new one("dojo arashi" in Japanese, "school storming") as they are literally taking food out of the mouths of "real" martial arts instructors.  But that would be wrong, wouldn't it?
This is a dilemma that has stalked me for quite some time.  I cannot stoop to their level and sell ranks, and lie about the practitioner's skill level.  That is dishonorable.  But I need to eat and live and date and stuff...and the evil ones will not stop their lies.
What do I do?  I am very angry that these people are allowed to do this.  A formal challenge would just bring the boys in blue, lawsuits, and probably a neat orange outfit and rent-free living.  I suppose I could go to one of these schools incognito and show up the instructor and throw business cards everywhere...well, anybody got any ideas?


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## Rainman (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by kenposcum _
> 
> *Well, there are an awful lot of "McDojos" out there spewing an awful lot of crap, and they make an inordinate amount of money swindling people and telling them lies.  I met a guy at Denny's a few years ago who had been studying for ten years and had a grand total of 36 degrees of black.  "Uh-huh," I said, holding back my fury.  The idea of going around to these schools and beating the ever-loving mess out of the charlatan instructors is not a new one("dojo arashi" in Japanese, "school storming") as they are literally taking food out of the mouths of "real" martial arts instructors.  But that would be wrong, wouldn't it?
> This is a dilemma that has stalked me for quite some time.  I cannot stoop to their level and sell ranks, and lie about the practitioner's skill level.  That is dishonorable.  But I need to eat and live and date and stuff...and the evil ones will not stop their lies.
> What do I do?  I am very angry that these people are allowed to do this.  A formal challenge would just bring the boys in blue, lawsuits, and probably a neat orange outfit and rent-free living.  I suppose I could go to one of these schools incognito and show up the instructor and throw business cards everywhere...well, anybody got any ideas? *



1. Yes- post their club names on forums like this one.  
2. You can't challenge people like that anymore see #1
3. I feel your pain- I've actually tried to get on the mat with some of the people I know to be full of it-cost is usually 20.00.  While I don't like these people actually giving them my money for anything really bugs me.   And actually getting on the mat with the head guy/school owner is like a trying to find a needle in a haystack.


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## kenposcum (Sep 4, 2002)

Well, okay, I know one chain in particular:
T-USA "martial arts" schools.  In addition to teaching the form of Tae Kwon Do better described as Take Your Dough, they also claim to teach other arts, then, when the prospective student arrives, they "explain" to the person how Tae Kwon Do is the "same" or better.  Smooth talking, hustling sales pitches, lies...the best was when they claimed to be teaching "kickboxing," and when the student came they'd just try to con them into takiing TKD, the explanation being, "it's the same!"  Grrrrr...and when they move in, they undercut area martial arts schools by charging less than the established schools until the real schools are forced to close, and *surprise!* then their rates go up.
I don't know if we should start a McDojo thread or how this would work...moderators, any ideas?
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 4, 2002)

McDojos were recently discussed here >
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?&threadid=3514

and a seach came up with a bunch of other links:
http://www.martialtalk.com/search.p...id=22033&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending

Short version, theres legal considerations involved.  If you wish to warn about a school that you've had a bad experience in, feel free to post about it in our 'bad budo' forum.  If you can reference something tangable (police reports, news articles, etc) it helps set the credibility higher than the "a freind told me" posts that all too often crop up.

Definately spread the word, but do so in a way that doesn't bite ya. 


It is often asked "Whats it take to get a black belt?"  
My Reply is $3.50 + S/H.

"Whats it take to be a blackbelt?"
A lifetime of dedication, training and experience.

:asian:


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