# Help with becoming less rigid



## hawkryger (Apr 1, 2015)

Hello all. I have a long-time background in Taekwondo and am just now a few months into Northern Mantis Kung Fu. Obviously the two styles are very different. Both myself and my instructor have been noticing how rigid my forms seem. This is a byproduct of my years of TKD, and something that's hard to break. I am wondering if you kindly folks have any advice to help me make my KF forms more smooth and fluid? I have been doing Tai Chi as well, which helps, but I find with the faster KF forms I tend to fall into old habits of rigidity again. Thanks for any suggestions. 


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## Instructor (Apr 1, 2015)

booze?


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## hawkryger (Apr 1, 2015)

Ok, when I said any suggestions I meant any that are actually thoughtful. 


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## Instructor (Apr 1, 2015)

Just kidding around.  Sorry if it's not funny. 
I deal with this kind of thing a lot.  TKD folks come over to Hapkido and they bring that crisp, precise, linear movement with them.  Whereas Hapkido favors relaxed circles and blending movement.  You can usually see shades of their earlier training in their movement no matter how much of the new art they learn.
The only advice I'll offer is to try to relax and follow your teachers lead.


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## hawkryger (Apr 1, 2015)

No worries  Hard sometimes to get intent from text. Thanks for the follow up


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 1, 2015)

This may sound crazy, but put on soft some music, Go Slow, and pay attention to your reverse motion. Strikes are but a halfway point of a full swing, and that swing happens on a circle, so think circles, not strikes.


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## Tez3 (Apr 1, 2015)

hawkryger said:


> Ok, when I said any suggestions I meant any that are actually thoughtful.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




Tis April Fools day 
]


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## clfsean (Apr 1, 2015)

There's a whole laundry list of things you can do, but the thing is you don't have time to do them all right now. The biggest thing I'd offer is relax your body. All of it. No tension, no muscling things, just motion. When you can "move" without forcing it, then you're starting to relax. Then you connect your body (all of it) & then you're generating power & issuing force more akin to CMA methods. It took me a long to relate to this coming from a KMA/JMA background before hitting CMA. 

And booze does help believe it or not.


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## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Do a squat with your feet flat to the floor untill you can sit on your heels almost.


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## drop bear (Apr 1, 2015)

Sorry with your legs close together or at least shoulder with.

It should open your hips up eventually.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 1, 2015)

hawkryger said:


> make my KF forms more smooth and fluid?


1st step, you try to coordinate one arm with one leg such as:

- right arm and left leg move/stop at the same time, or
- right arm and right leg move/stop at the same time.

Of course "left" and "right" can be switched in any order as required.

For example,

- right hook punch and left back leg touch right leading leg at the same time (coordinate right arm with left leg).
- right forearm push and right leg advance at the same time (coordinate right arm with right leg).

2nd step, you try to coordinate your

- shoulder with your hip,
- elbow with your knee,
- hand with your foot,

your body coordinate starts to get into more detail. When you can do that, your movement will become smooth and fluid. In other words, if you can divide your "combo" in several steps, for each step of your move, you will need to figure out which leg should coordinate with which arm. You should never just thinking about arm movement without thinking about leg movement (or the other way around).


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## K-man (Apr 1, 2015)

First thing to do is make sure you are not setting your feet. As soon as you set your feet, your whole structure locks up.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 1, 2015)

hawkryger said:


> Hello all. I have a long-time background in Taekwondo and am just now a few months into Northern Mantis Kung Fu. Obviously the two styles are very different. Both myself and my instructor have been noticing how rigid my forms seem. This is a byproduct of my years of TKD, and something that's hard to break. I am wondering if you kindly folks have any advice to help me make my KF forms more smooth and fluid? I have been doing Tai Chi as well, which helps, but I find with the faster KF forms I tend to fall into old habits of rigidity again. Thanks for any suggestions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk




time, patience, and practice.... that is all


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## mograph (Apr 1, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> time, patience, and practice.... that is all



Yes. In addition, here are some options:
1. Do Zhan Zhuang. Work up to at least 30 minutes per session. You _have_ to learn to relax (and distribute the effort of standing through your body) in order to survive it.
2. Do a set "sloppy." Let your arms hang, but out slightly as if inflated. Just let them go along with your body as if they were mostly inflated, maybe with hands floating about a foot from the hips. YMMV.
3. Basically, "let" more things happen, and "make" fewer things happen.
4. Feel heavy below, and light above.
5. Feel the air on your hands as you move slowly. It's hard to do this while tense. Then try it using your face and so on.
6. It's how you feel, not how you look. Read the 10 essences and _feel_ them as you go.

Hope that helps.


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## hawkryger (Apr 1, 2015)

Wow, so many great responses. Thank you all so much! I have a lot to work on!


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## mograph (Apr 3, 2015)

I recommend Kenneth Cohen's book, _The Way of Qigong_, in particular the chapter "fang song gong," and the section "sensitivity," therein. 

Being _song_ is not about being tensed ... like some guy who snaps into a ready pose, all hard quivering muscle and bulging veins. That guy is frozen in that pose, and he has to relax in order to move and _do_ anything. 

No, to me, being _song_ (sounds like "soong") is being in neutral, neither in forward gear nor in reverse, but with a full tank of gas. It's all relaxed, yet full of potential, neither committed to a nap nor to an angry locked state. You can go forward or you can go back. Left or right. You can make something happen or you can let something happen.

Make sense?


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## blindsage (Apr 3, 2015)

Invest in more relaxed movement.  Tension feels strong, but it is self-defeating.  Your TKD will get better as well.  Most really highly skilled MAists learn to relax because everything works better.


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## dlcox (Apr 4, 2015)

hawkryger said:


> Hello all. I have a long-time background in Taekwondo and am just now a few months into Northern Mantis Kung Fu. Obviously the two styles are very different. Both myself and my instructor have been noticing how rigid my forms seem. This is a byproduct of my years of TKD, and something that's hard to break. I am wondering if you kindly folks have any advice to help me make my KF forms more smooth and fluid? I have been doing Tai Chi as well, which helps, but I find with the faster KF forms I tend to fall into old habits of rigidity again. Thanks for any suggestions.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Xue Sheng had good advice I would add simply walking through the movement without emphasis on intent. As clfsean stated just do the motions, once your body has been reprogrammed emphasis can be placed. This will take time. With the practice of so many styles (Tae Kwon Do, Mantis, Taiji) that are significantly different from one another you will face conflicts within the movements. Time, patience and practice are the only cure should you continue on with all three. Personally I would suggest dropping one of the new endeavors to focus on only one of them. Too hard to keep your cup empty with two wells filling it let alone three.


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## hawkryger (Apr 4, 2015)

mograph said:


> I recommend Kenneth Cohen's book, _The Way of Qigong_, in particular the chapter "fang song gong," and the section "sensitivity," therein.
> 
> Being _song_ is not about being tensed ... like some guy who snaps into a ready pose, all hard quivering muscle and bulging veins. That guy is frozen in that pose, and he has to relax in order to move and _do_ anything.
> 
> ...



Yes, excellent! I will definitely check out that book. Thanks!



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## hawkryger (Apr 4, 2015)

dlcox said:


> Xue Sheng had good advice I would add simply walking through the movement without emphasis on intent. As clfsean stated just do the motions, once your body has been reprogrammed emphasis can be placed. This will take time. With the practice of so many styles (Tae Kwon Do, Mantis, Taiji) that are significantly different from one another you will face conflicts within the movements. Time, patience and practice are the only cure should you continue on with all three. Personally I would suggest dropping one of the new endeavors to focus on only one of them. Too hard to keep your cup empty with two wells filling it let alone three.


 
Good advice for sure. I stopped TKD training to focus solely on KF and Tai Chi for now. 


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## Danny T (Apr 4, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> This may sound crazy, but put on soft some music, Go Slow, and pay attention to your reverse motion. Strikes are but a halfway point of a full swing, and that swing happens on a circle, so think circles, not strikes.


Huh! Go Slow you say?
Did you not post this on another thread?


Touch Of Death said:


> I keep seeing people post about how going slow helps your technique. It doesn't.


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## yak sao (Apr 4, 2015)

Nothing against TKD...I've had the opportunity to fight against some of those guys back in the day  and some of them were damn good fighters. 
This is anecdotal at best, but the ones I've known who changed over to kung fu have a hard time unlearning that style of movement.

 The advice so far is solid....just go through the movements, no power. Think of being in a pool of water, shoulder deep. Move in such a way as to not make waves.


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## yak sao (Apr 4, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Huh! Go Slow you say?
> Did you not post this on another thread?



I saw that too....I was going to bust his chops on it too, but thought maybe we got through to him


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 4, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Huh! Go Slow you say?
> Did you not post this on another thread?


I said it would sound crazy.


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## Danny T (Apr 4, 2015)

yak sao said:


> I saw that too....I was going to bust his chops on it too, but thought maybe we got through to him


I did look at the previous post after posting this. Knowing what was posted there after I quite following it you are correct. Wasn't attempting to pile on, just questioning the different posting.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 4, 2015)

Learning a new thing is a valid reason to go slow.


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## Brian King (Apr 4, 2015)

Welcome to MT hawkryger.
Some really good suggestions above thread. If I might add a couple for you to think about and maybe try? Disclaimer, I do not practice CMA.

Sometimes a persons perspective just needs a bit of opening up. The fact that a person moves the way that they do says something to them if they will listen. It is obvious that a person moves in whichever way because that way has in the past worked for them. It has been successful in someway that helped the body recognize it as a proper and correct way of moving. Recognizing that since the current way of moving has worked for them in the past is proof that it is not wrong, it is merely different. It is easy to get worked up by listening to that inner complaining/blaming voice, which by listening to it often just causes an increase or greater likely hood in the less desired outcome.  In the case of the OP, an increase of excess tension. When hearing that blaming, finding fault inner voice, give yourself a pat on the back for having the sensitivity to recognize that you are moving with excess tension and let out that breath that was suspended, lol. Tell yourself that it is not wrong, just different, and right now you wish to try a different way of moving. Chuckle at yourself and look around - perhaps there are plenty of people training right beside you that are more than willing to give you lumps, no sense in giving yourself lumps.

One of the ways to move in a more relaxed manner is to first add excess tension. It is funny but for me true - trying to relax specific muscle groups can be difficult simply because your body does not yet have the specific neural pathways that would allow the muscles to release the held tension, or as often is the case, the nervous system is firing out of a fear response. Doesn't really matter. Either way you can trick the body into relaxing a bit. You will not be as free as your sifu or instructor, but you will be freer. Simply do which ever movement you were doing when you noticed the excess tension but this time make your body as tense as possible, head to toe, while still being able to move. Think isometrics. The body can be tense extended or compacted, heck do it both ways or mix it up. Then do the movement as relaxed as possible, think floppy and not martially. It doesn't have to make sense martially. You want to explore both extremes, too much tension, not enough tension. Right after, go back into the movement and try to move natural which should be somewhere between the two extremes and keep breathing.  

Another trick is to focus your mind on something other than what your body is doing/feeling. Do the movements but focus entirely on breathing for example. Or focus on the second/minute hand on a wall clock, can you get thru a series of movements and never lose sight and consciousness of the ticking clock? 

Good luck
Regards
Brian King


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## hawkryger (Apr 5, 2015)

Many thanks for the thoughtful response Mr. King!


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## jks9199 (Apr 5, 2015)

Another suggestion...

Stop trying to move forcefully or strongly, with crisp motions. Instead, take all the force out, and concentrate on moving smoothly and without stops or ends in the motion.  Let each motion fluidly connect to the one before or after.  Take the power out, and move intentionally. That's hard to explain in text...

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## hawkryger (Apr 5, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Another suggestion...
> 
> Stop trying to move forcefully or strongly, with crisp motions. Instead, take all the force out, and concentrate on moving smoothly and without stops or ends in the motion.  Let each motion fluidly connect to the one before or after.  Take the power out, and move intentionally. That's hard to explain in text...
> 
> Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk



By move intentionally do you mean to just keep flowing through the whole form, without pausing in any one movement?


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## jks9199 (Apr 5, 2015)

hawkryger said:


> By move intentionally do you mean to just keep flowing through the whole form, without pausing in any one movement?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Its kind of hard to explain. There's a difference between moving intentionally and simply moving. Think about the motion, and let it happen rather than making it happen, if that helps describe it.  Kind of the difference between someone who is pretending to be relaxed and someone who is really relaxed... Or moving with purpose and intent rather than fidgeting.

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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 5, 2015)

Relax, be patient and follow your instructors lead.  In time you will see yourself shedding the rigidity and moving into a more graceful flowing movement.  However, it takes time.


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## Marnetmar (Apr 11, 2015)

Why not just create your own version of Northern Mantis that's as rigid as possible and call it "Tetanus Quan?"


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## yak sao (Apr 11, 2015)

Marnetmar said:


> Why not just create your own version of Northern Mantis that's as rigid as possible and call it "Tetanus Quan?"



How about Rigor Mantis...........rigor mortis....get it?


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## Blaze Dragon (May 8, 2015)

I faced a similar experience going from TKD to Taijiquan, it was gradual overtime. I found that doing the movements slow and really focusing flowing through the movements slowly started to make a difference. I'm sure I'm still more rigid in my movements then I should be, however I am flowing through movements a lot better then I did 5 years ago. Once we started learning fajin, it made a difference too. I think what help the most was visualizing while I moved, imagining myself as water for example. After a while, muscle memory gets programmed in and you start instinctively moving different.


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## drop bear (May 8, 2015)

One of our coaches,rob,has been learning gymnastics conditioning drills. Which we will be adopting elements of for our body weight exercises.
(cos we do en wrong)

Looking in to that may help.


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## BTrent (May 21, 2015)

I had the rigidity of Korean martial arts disappear from mantis when I got to the intermediate level and after starting tai chi.  Some people here say that TKD and TSD will hold you back, but I don't think this is the case.  After doing Tang Soo Do for 26 years, I progress about twice as fast in mantis.  Doing partner exercises in taichi really helps for loosing rigidity if you have a good teacher who knows what she/he is doing.  You can do push hands in such a way where a push from your partner meets no resistance at all.  Do that enough and you will know how to be flexible and not rigid.


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## Shai Hulud (May 21, 2015)

Qigong (if you remain unimpressed by Qi theory, consider Qigong a form of light Chinese isometrics) will help. Its movements are usually specific to concepts in Chinese Taoist tradition, and are relevant to Chinese martial arts, such as Northern Mantis. The circular movements that feature heavily in most Qigong sets should help you get a feel of most Kung Fu styles.

Dr. Yang Jwing Ming's book, _Eight Simple Qigong Exercises for Health_, covers the _Ba Duan Jin_ (Eight Piece Silk Brocade), a popular and very simple external Qi Gong set that should serve as a good introduction to Qi Gong theory and its practice. It is important also that you grasp the concepts behind the movements to help you internalize them. _The Root of Qigong_ by the same author offers a more detailed account of Chinese health practices. 

Three other good books I would recommend are _The way of Energy, The Way of Power, _and _Qigong for Anxiety _by Lam Kam Chuen. You may also want to look into the Dayan/Wild Goose Qigong exercises.


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## hawkryger (May 23, 2015)

It's funny you mention wild goose, as one of my instructors recently certified to teach it. Thanks for the suggestions


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