# Spirit: the third (forgotten?) part of the triangle



## girlbug2

The Mind, Body, Spirit saying is arguably the most universal martial arts phrase . The way it was explained to me in Kenpo, those are the three parts that make up a balanced person; all parts must be nurtured in the martial arts. You are not just a body, nor a body and a mind, but also a spirit.

Now I don't believe that it is possible to teach any martial art without including the body *and *the mind. Obviously the art manifests physically, originating in the mind of the artist first. The spiritual side however is more subtle and has never been pinned down to my satisfaction. What would you (or your art) say the "spirit" aspects of MA is? Is there something that manifests during training together in the dojo, an undefinable "force"? Is "spirit" in the philosophy and teaching of the instructor regarding when and how to apply the art? Does faith in a higher power come into play at all in your dojo -- does your sensei discuss matters of spirituality explicitly as such?

But really, how many senseis even attempt to explicitly address the spirit side of the triangle?

I am guessing, based on my own limited experiences with 3 different styles, that "spirit" is the most commonly neglected of the three aspects of the MA triangle. Or, perhaps the senseis typically do not waste time  on that with the lower ranking students, in which case, perhaps I need to get a higher rank to find out.

How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?


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## Xue Sheng

I will say this and then get out of the way

First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. It is not separate nor does it stand out and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.

And to clarify the term "Spirit" does not always mean or translate the same to other cultures.

China - Spirit is Shen but when talking about shen you are talking about the mind in China, not religion.

Also I feel that this "search" for spirituality in many martial arts is in fact ruining many martial arts

OK, now I will get out of the way


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## girlbug2

First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. *It is not separate nor does it stand out* and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.

So does that mean it is an indefinable force? 
I suppose what I'm getting at is, whatever people might call the "martial spirit", is it a feeling/energy you get when a group comes together to train, or is it purely the philosophical principles that the art is based on?


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## Xue Sheng

girlbug2 said:


> First the Spirit or Spirituality you are talking about is intrinsic to many martial arts. *It is not separate nor does it stand out* and it is not the job of any MA teacher to teach spirituality. The eastern cultures that many MA styles come from do not compartmentalize things like we do here in the west.
> 
> So does that mean it is an indefinable force?
> I suppose what I'm getting at is, whatever people might call the "martial spirit", is it a feeling/energy you get when a group comes together to train, or is it purely the philosophical principles that the art is based on?


 
I can absolutely guarantee I am not the person you want in this post, beyond my previous post, if you want to keep it going. Just search for any topics on spirituality in MA and Xue Sheng and you will see why.

Good luck in your search


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## girlbug2

As you wish:|

(sigh) I hope I'm not the only one interested in this topic!


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## Steel Tiger

girlbug2 said:


> The Mind, Body, Spirit saying is arguably the most universal martial arts phrase . The way it was explained to me in Kenpo, those are the three parts that make up a balanced person; all parts must be nurtured in the martial arts. You are not just a body, nor a body and a mind, but also a spirit.
> 
> Now I don't believe that it is possible to teach any martial art without including the body *and *the mind. Obviously the art manifests physically, originating in the mind of the artist first. The spiritual side however is more subtle and has never been pinned down to my satisfaction. What would you (or your art) say the "spirit" aspects of MA is? Is there something that manifests during training together in the dojo, an undefinable "force"? Is "spirit" in the philosophy and teaching of the instructor regarding when and how to apply the art? Does faith in a higher power come into play at all in your dojo -- does your sensei discuss matters of spirituality explicitly as such?
> 
> But really, how many senseis even attempt to explicitly address the spirit side of the triangle?
> 
> I am guessing, based on my own limited experiences with 3 different styles, that "spirit" is the most commonly neglected of the three aspects of the MA triangle. Or, perhaps the senseis typically do not waste time on that with the lower ranking students, in which case, perhaps I need to get a higher rank to find out.
> 
> How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?


 
To continue where Xue left off, that is the CMA perspective, Shen, spirit, is a necessary component in doing anything.  It is intent.  Let me see if I can explain it.  You have five elements operating here - Shen (spirit), Yi (the reasoning mind), Qi (life energy/breath), Li (muscular strength), and Jin (force).  To produce Jin the Shen guides the Yi to coordinate Qi and Li.  Does that make sense?  In English - Intent guides the Reasoning Mind to coordinate Life Energy and Muscular Strength to produce Force.

Of course this is a very internal MA view of this, but the internal arts do tend to be involved with this sort of thing a bit more than the external ones.  Because of this Spirit is not dealt with separately in my classes it is just a part of what we do.

Spirituality is another matter.  The funny thing about spirituality is that it doesn't have to have anything to do with spirit.  It is more about beliefs and morals, and in that instance I address it, albeit in a cursory fashion, through the Taoist philosophy that is an intrinsic part of bagua.


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## Errant108

Prove the spirit exists.


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## tellner

Xue Sheng said:


> I will say this and then get out of the way
> ...MANY TRUE THINGS...
> OK, now I will get out of the way



Word.


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## Kacey

Errant108 said:


> Prove the spirit exists.


Prove it doesn't.  Proving, or disproving, an intangible of that nature is a philosophical exercise - it goes along with proving faith.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Character or morals a teacher can help or affect with a practitioner.  

Spirit just is!  As Xue pointed out it is intrinsic.  In one art that I study the system of Budo Taijutsu, Hatsumi Sensei spends very little if any time on this.  When asked he says to just train.  That says alot.  *Just train and do!*






As for the spirit being neglected in training?  *No way as it is always there!* :asian:


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## jkembry

Spirit to me is something that cannot be taught.  That being said, I do believe that training and training more makes me aware of the spirit (actually I prefer Qi or energy).  Qi is something that I have felt from time to time during my short tenure of training.  And I find in it manifests itself in different ways with me.  the trick for me is to be aware of its existence and to keep on training.

- Jeff -


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## punisher73

I think that in the west when we usually say "spirit" we mean the soul, and as such any discussion usually involves a religious aspect.  This might be why many instructors do not talk about spirit, they don't want to put their religious views onto other students.

I also think that "spirit" as it refers to martial aspects can also imply and take into consideration a person's "emotional content" (I think Bruce Lee even used that term).  Another way to put it is your intent.

I think that "spirit" is also an almost indefinable and VERY personal thing that is when you are unified with yourself and others around you.  I think a lot of us have met a very "spiritual person" who just seemed to possess an energy around them.  I'm NOT talking about a religious person who does all the "do's and don'ts" of their chosen religion. It isn't something you can prove or even quantify it is just something that is.

I'm not sure how you can really teach that to someone.  I think if a student asks than if you have walked on that path before you can help point them on how to start to walk the path.  But, I think that each person experiences it in their own way and discovers their own path.


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## girlbug2

Steel Tiger said:


> To continue where Xue left off, that is the CMA perspective, Shen, spirit, is a necessary component in doing anything. It is intent. Let me see if I can explain it. You have five elements operating here - Shen (spirit), Yi (the reasoning mind), Qi (life energy/breath), Li (muscular strength), and Jin (force). To produce Jin the Shen guides the Yi to coordinate Qi and Li. Does that make sense? In English - Intent guides the Reasoning Mind to coordinate Life Energy and Muscular Strength to produce Force.
> 
> Of course this is a very internal MA view of this, but the internal arts do tend to be involved with this sort of thing a bit more than the external ones. Because of this Spirit is not dealt with separately in my classes it is just a part of what we do.
> 
> Spirituality is another matter. The funny thing about spirituality is that it doesn't have to have anything to do with spirit. It is more about beliefs and morals, and in that instance I address it, albeit in a cursory fashion, through the Taoist philosophy that is an intrinsic part of bagua.


 
Thanks for clearing that up. I had always supposed Chi (qi) to mean spirit. That sequence actually makes sense to me.

I would disagree that spirituality doesn't have anything to do with spirit however, if spirit is defined as intent. Intent has a lot to do with beliefs and morals. 

So to sum up, the CMA view is that spirit is just intrinsic to the martial arts. Got it


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## girlbug2

jkembry said:


> Spirit to me is something that cannot be taught. That being said, I do believe that training and training more makes me aware of the spirit (actually I prefer Qi or energy). Qi is something that I have felt from time to time during my short tenure of training. And I find in it manifests itself in different ways with me. the trick for me is to be aware of its existence and to keep on training.
> 
> - Jeff -


 
Qi/energy/force=result of training. I concur.


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## CoryKS

Our school uses the term to mean the student's willingness to perform with intensity and to give the maximum effort even after your lung has fallen out and walked off to get a drink.  Sometimes we have kata sessions where the goal is to demonstrate spirit even if the performance degrades somewhat.


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## girlbug2

punisher73 said:


> I think that in the west when we usually say "spirit" we mean the soul, and as such any discussion usually involves a religious aspect. This might be why many instructors do not talk about spirit, they don't want to put their religious views onto other students.
> 
> I also think that "spirit" as it refers to martial aspects can also imply and take into consideration a person's "emotional content" (I think Bruce Lee even used that term). Another way to put it is your intent.
> 
> I think that "spirit" is also an almost indefinable and VERY personal thing that is when you are unified with yourself and others around you. I think a lot of us have met a very "spiritual person" who just seemed to possess an energy around them. I'm NOT talking about a religious person who does all the "do's and don'ts" of their chosen religion. It isn't something you can prove or even quantify it is just something that is.
> 
> I'm not sure how you can really teach that to someone. I think if a student asks than if you have walked on that path before you can help point them on how to start to walk the path. But, I think that each person experiences it in their own way and discovers their own path.


 
I am getting that so far -- instructors are unwilling to touch upon religious aspects. Perhaps because of fear of litigation in our hyper-sue modern times?

Regarding a "spiritual person" -- I have met people with tremendous charisma, regardless of religious beliefs. Some people just have it naturally.


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## Kacey

girlbug2 said:


> I am getting that so far -- instructors are unwilling to touch upon religious aspects. Perhaps because of fear of litigation in our hyper-sue modern times?
> 
> Regarding a "spiritual person" -- I have met people with tremendous charisma, regardless of religious beliefs. Some people just have it naturally.



"Spirit/spirituality" and "religion" can be - and often are - separate.  As an instructor, I talk about "spirit"more in the sense Cory used (willingness, effort, perseverance, etc.) than anything else.  Some arts or organizations are organized to promulgate a certain religion, but most are not, certainly not in the sense that is meant in the US.  It has nothing to do with fear of litigation; it is because, while most arts teach morality (which, for many people, has a religious connotation or context), at least in terms of proper use of the skills being taught, religion itself is not part of most arts.  If the two were not kept separate, then students would limited to instructors who share their own religion - and being Jewish, it would have been really hard for me to find an instructor; likewise, none of my current students are Jewish.

There are plenty of people whose religious beliefs are in direct contradiction to those of their instructors, or to precepts of a particular art; instructors can either accommodate those differences, and therefore those students, or will be unable to teach them.  But the teaching of actual religion in the martial arts should be limited to those classes/organizations that are intended to do so, and it should be made obvious to prospective students that the class is being used to promulgate a particular religion.


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## Xue Sheng

girlbug2 said:


> I would disagree that spirituality doesn't have anything to do with spirit however, if spirit is defined as intent. Intent has a lot to do with beliefs and morals.


 
OK to quote my favorite philosopher "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more"






 WARNING Rant to follow

NO NO NO NO NO

Spirit in CMA has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with beliefs or morals. 

Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
Do you need a Unified mind to pursue spirituality, well likely or at least the Buddhist think so but having a unified mind DOES NOT mean spirituality, Morality or Beliefs. It means "Clear thinking" Just because you can think clearly DOES NOT mean you are spiritual, Moral or have any beliefs that would qualify as spiritual. 

After that is Yi which is intent and there is no mysticism, religion or morality it is being sharply focused. Now do you need to be sharply focused for meditation? Yes

But does being sharply focused mean you are spiritual? No. It means you have the ability to concentrate your thoughts.

Again being sharply focused in thinking DOES NOT necessarily mean you are or have any desire to be Spiritual. I took calculus 3 in College and I can tell you that took a lot of focus but I sure would not call it spiritual

Qi is internal energy that we all have in the body and is about as spiritual as is the Skeletal system. Ask a TCMA teacher born and raised in China or an OMD born raised and trained in China and you will AT BEST get something close to a lesson in Anatomy and physiology&#8230; that is if they talk to you about it at all.

From my branch of Taijiquan you need Shen, Yi and Shi (Shi is proper posture) after that you have Yi, Qi, Li. 

None of that is spiritual to me to me it is

You have to have a calm mind to focus your thoughts and in order to do this you have to be comfortable in the correct posture

Next Yi

You now can concentrate to move energy to move your muscles.

Now if after training and understanding ALL of that if someone wants to go off looking for spirituality, more power to them. But if you go into this looking for Spirituality you end up with a watered down MA that ends up in philosophical discussions that try and justify the "violence" of MA that just can't be right since one is a spiritual being and thereby you DO NOT TRAIN properly and you get Watered down useless MA. This whole idea of Forced, compartmentalized, oh you must be a guru after 15 years of taiji, idea of spirituality is making me SERIOSLY consider switching to MMA or putting all my focus into Sanda just to get the heck away from it. Why oh why we here in the west want to know how to spiritually wack someone up side the head I have NO idea. 

It is not the job of any MA teacher to teach anyone spirituality it is not the job of any MA teacher to have spiritual discussions with his students and it is not the job of the teacher to show you any proper path to walk.

As my taiji Sifu has said when asked about the "Spirituality" of Taiji "I don't know about spirituality I know about taiji" 

Learn whatever MA you want, train it and train it hard and you will be surprised at what you learn about yourself and others but if you are looking for overt spirituality or philosophical discussions about it go to a church not a martial arts school.






 Rant Over

Sorry I could not sit back any longer

Spirituallity is fine but trying to seperate it from any TCMA and highlight it is not. If that is what you want I truly hope you find like minded folks that will discuss it with you but a lot of us old warrions have heard it way to often.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Growing up here in Miami there were a lot of fights.

In those fights sometimes you fought a bigger guy or sometimes a gang but if you had heart you were always respected.

Heart/Intent/Spirit/Will these things are not something really trained.

They are a by product of yourself,experiences,training, and discipline.

It may seem this is neglected in the training hall but in fact each part of training is building this.

The Spirit forms naturally thru patience and training. However it should not be the goal to be spiritual because this will only get in the way of the spirit forming naturally.


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## girlbug2

Xue Sheng said:


> OK to quote my favorite philosopher "I've had all I can stands and I can't stands no more"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> WARNING Rant to follow
> 
> NO NO NO NO NO
> 
> Spirit in CMA has ABSOLUTLY NOTHING to do with beliefs or morals.
> 
> Shen = Spirit = Unified mind
> Do you need a Unified mind to pursue spirituality, well likely or at least the Buddhist think so but having a unified mind DOES NOT mean spirituality, Morality or Beliefs. It means "Clear thinking" Just because you can think clearly DOES NOT mean you are spiritual, Moral or have any beliefs that would qualify as spiritual.
> 
> After that is Yi which is intent and there is no mysticism, religion or morality it is being sharply focused. Now do you need to be sharply focused for meditation? Yes
> 
> But does being sharply focused mean you are spiritual? No. It means you have the ability to concentrate your thoughts.
> 
> Again being sharply focused in thinking DOES NOT necessarily mean you are or have any desire to be Spiritual. I took calculus 3 in College and I can tell you that took a lot of focus but I sure would not call it spiritual
> 
> Qi is internal energy that we all have in the body and is about as spiritual as is the Skeletal system. Ask a TCMA teacher born and raised in China or an OMD born raised and trained in China and you will AT BEST get something close to a lesson in Anatomy and physiology that is if they talk to you about it at all.
> 
> From my branch of Taijiquan you need Shen, Yi and Shi (Shi is proper posture) after that you have Yi, Qi, Li.
> 
> None of that is spiritual to me to me it is
> 
> You have to have a calm mind to focus your thoughts and in order to do this you have to be comfortable in the correct posture
> 
> Next Yi
> 
> You now can concentrate to move energy to move your muscles.
> 
> Now if after training and understanding ALL of that if someone wants to go off looking for spirituality, more power to them. But if you go into this looking for Spirituality you end up with a watered down MA that ends up in philosophical discussions that try and justify the "violence" of MA that just can't be right since one is a spiritual being and thereby you DO NOT TRAIN properly and you get Watered down useless MA. This whole idea of Forced, compartmentalized, oh you must be a guru after 15 years of taiji, idea of spirituality is making me SERIOSLY consider switching to MMA or putting all my focus into Sanda just to get the heck away from it. Why oh why we here in the west want to know how to spiritually wack someone up side the head I have NO idea.
> 
> It is not the job of any MA teacher to teach anyone spirituality it is not the job of any MA teacher to have spiritual discussions with his students and it is not the job of the teacher to show you any proper path to walk.
> 
> As my taiji Sifu has said when asked about the "Spirituality" of Taiji "I don't know about spirituality I know about taiji"
> 
> Learn whatever MA you want, train it and train it hard and you will be surprised at what you learn about yourself and others but if you are looking for overt spirituality or philosophical discussions about it go to a church not a martial arts school.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Rant Over
> 
> Sorry I could not sit back any longer
> 
> Spirituallity is fine but trying to seperate it from any TCMA and highlight it is not. If that is what you want I truly hope you find like minded folks that will discuss it with you but a lot of us old warrions have heard it way to often.


Dude, you have no idea how tempted I was to reply with a single J-word!

(Lord I do apologize..)

Seriously, I had no idea this would be such a hot button.

But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.

I do agree that it is not a sensei's _job_ to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?

I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.


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## Xue Sheng

girlbug2 said:


> Dude, you have no idea how tempted I was to reply with a single J-word!



Feel free to use the J-word should you so desire. I have been called many things by those who I do not agree with about spirituality in MA which is rather ironic if you think about it.



girlbug2 said:


> But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.



I suggest you check your history on eastern martial arts. There is MUCH more to CMA than Shaolin and MUCH more to JMA than Zen.

But regardless you would be hard pressed to get a single TMA trained Sifu/Sensei form China or Japan to talk to you about spirituality, it is intrinsic they do not compartmentalize like we do in the west.



girlbug2 said:


> I do agree that it is not a sensei's job to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?



You do not understand Chinese or Japanese culture if you expect a spiritual view form a real live Sensei or Sifu.




girlbug2 said:


> I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.



I will try and keep this civil

I do taiji, people show up to class with a view of a calm sense of self and spirituality that they KNOW they will get form Taiji. But when you even MENTION MA they are offended and then they try and change it to what THEY Want and it is this search for spirituality that we in the west appear to need that is a BIG contributor to the destruction of MA styles like Taiji and Aikido and Bagua soon to follow.

The bottom-line here is that your view of spirituality is just fine for you but it is NOT part of what TMA id nor was it ever part of the Eastern view of MA.

If you want to pursue it that is fine but do not say it is missing or you don't understand why it is not emphasizes or why it is not discussed more because then you are forcing your view of spirituality on MA that was not there previously.

Many do not understand the MA they train or the culture it comes form but instead of trying to understand it they try and change it to someth8ing they understand and the changes the art and DOES water it down and make it FAR less effective than it originally was.

Did you have any idea before this that Taiji was actually a rather effective MA or did you just think it was a type of moving mediation for health. This is what I am talking about it waters things down.

Now have at me call me whatever name you want but I suggest you learn more about the history and the culture that you&#8217;re chosen MA comes form before you wonder why your view of spirituality is not openly discussed or practiced, berate others for not agreeing and/or force your views of spirituality on it.


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## girlbug2

I wasn't going to call you a name, certainly not "Jesus"

Yes, part of my purpose in being here is to become more educated. That is why I ask questions.

It was not my intent to berate anybody or to force my views of spirituality on anybody. This is meant to be a philosophical discussion about the various perceptions of the term spirit and how it applies to martial arts. I merely ask for everybody's take on it from their understanding and experiences. And now we have yours. Thank you.


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## Kacey

girlbug2 said:


> But I do ask, why would spirituality necessarily water down the martial arts? Is it not possible that spirituality could enhance one's training? After all, as I have been lead to understand it, the eastern martial arts are strongly connected to a monastic tradition.


 
Spirituality is a personal thing, and people can come to it in a variety of ways.

From Spock's World, by Diane Duane:


> He folded his hands and steepled his fingers. *There is no context in your translation because it is probably the one concept in the language that must be continually reexperienced to be valid. You cannot freeze it into one form, any more than you would want to repeat the same breath over and over all your life. One must experience aTha differently every second. But that is not a tradition or a stricture imposed by people  merely a function of the structure of the universe. Your position in space-time constantly changes: aTha must change as well.*
> Jim shook his head.  Im missing something.
> I think not, Spock said. I think most human languages would render the concept as immanence. or something similar. aTha is the direct experience of the being or force responsible for the creation and maintenance of the Universe.
> God Jim said, incredulous.
> Vulcans experience that presence directly and constantly. Always have, to varying degrees. The word is one of the oldest known, one of the first ever found written, and is the same in almost all of the ancient languages.


I posted the entire passage to give context the part I was interested in - the part now in bold. The key facet here is that spirituality is not _fixed_ - as Spock says in the passage, about a'Tha, it must continuously reexperienced, as it is always changing and evolving, based on the life experiences of the person involved. Certainly, involvement in a martial art can _affect_ one's current spirituality; it can even _shape_ one's current (and future) spirituality, through the physical conditioning and the mental discipline, and many instructors will help with that by providing guidance along the way (how and when to use the skills, how to build them, how to train, etc.) but that growth and change is a personal, internal happening.



girlbug2 said:


> I do agree that it is not a sensei's _job_ to teach spirituality. But does that mean he cannot express his personal spiritual beliefs to the students in any aspect?


 
It depends on what you mean.  Do I try to demonstrate to my students that I follow the moral precepts taught in my art to guide its use?  Certainly; we discuss scenarios in which TKD should and should not be used on a regular basis, as I consider that part of my responsibility as an instructor.  Do I discuss my religion with them?  Not in class, and only in the context of "I'll be out for this Jewish holiday, so-and-so will be subbing for me."  My students are welcome to ask about my religion - and my spirituality, which is tied into it - outside of class, and outside the context of class.  But none of my current students share my religion - why would I expect them to share my spirituality?

There are some clubs and associations formed to promote a particular religious view, and that's their choice - as long as they make it clear to the students that that's what they're doing, rather than tricking students into believing that the religion is part and parcel of the martial art.  Martial arts - while often paired with religious/spiritual practices throughout Asia - are not religious in and of themselves, and should not treated as such.



girlbug2 said:


> I understand that this topic is wearing on you, so if you are not inclined to respond that's okay, maybe someone else will take it up. My sincere thanks for your participation.



If you don't ask, you won't know - but be aware that this is a topic about which a great many people have very strong opinions, and often very private ones as well.  Some people are quite open about sharing their personal spirituality, but others are less so, and some will not do it at all.


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## JBrainard

girlbug2 said:


> How (if at all) is spirit addressed in your dojo? And is it regarded equally with mind and body?


 
It is intentionally not addressed in the school I go to. My teacher has not explicitly said why it is so, but I would guess that it is because our spirituality is a personal matter, and he has students of many religions training under him.
I think it makes sense.


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## Xue Sheng

girlbug2 said:


> II merely ask for everybody's take on it from their understanding and experiences. And now we have yours. Thank you.


 
Actually you don't. 

You have my view of spirituality discussions as they applies to martial arts.... kinda

and you're welcome



Kacey said:


> If you don't ask, you won't know - but be aware that this is a topic about which a great many people have very strong opinions, and often very private ones as well. *Some people are quite open about sharing their personal spirituality, but others are less so, and some will not do it at all*.



BINGO!!!



As to asking it is fine but I can't stress enough that one really needs to know the language if you will. 

I keep referring to Shen as being translated to spirit and to a westerner they go EUREKA I found spirituality but they do not delve into it any deeper to find that Shen to a Chinese person means spirit but that spirit is "mind"

And the original miss understanding of Qi made by the OP herself. Qi is energy it is not spirit or spirituality. 

Looking into the actual meanings of the words being used and not making assumptions as to the meaning, even though one would be justified in believing the spirit that is Shen is the same as the western definition, if you look into it you find it is not and in the process you learn some pretty amazing things about the culture.

You cannot put western views and ideals on an Eastern Culture, it doesn't work, and that is if you want real understanding of said culture.

Also could be that all of my teachers were or are either Chinese or taught by Chinese a Sifu or a  Japanese Sensei too I don&#8217;t know.

Is there spirituality in Martial arts&#8230; actually if you train it right yes&#8230; but it is not overt it is intrinsic&#8230;. It is not a group thing it is personal&#8230; and my view of it is likely different than the next person so how do you train it&#8230;.

What is, is that is all.

And that's the most spirituality you will get out of me :asian:


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## KELLYG

Are we talking about :martial spirit: or religion.  They, In my opinion are two different things.   Martial spirit is the fundamental :who you are:  The connection between you and your self. For example breaking boards, probably does not make since for people not involved in martial arts.  But it  is used for focus, technique and your willingness to break wood. Doing the same kick over and over to learn and relearn the kick to your level of perfection is another example.  How about black belt testing, some are so physical almost past the point of exhaustion. Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.


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## JBrainard

KELLYG said:


> Are we talking about :martial spirit: or religion. They, In my opinion are two different things. Martial spirit is the fundamental :who you are: The connection between you and your self. For example breaking boards, probably does not make since for people not involved in martial arts. But it is used for focus, technique and your willingness to break wood. Doing the same kick over and over to learn and relearn the kick to your level of perfection is another example. How about black belt testing, some are so physical almost past the point of exhaustion. Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.


 
But what "the willingness" and the "personal self" mean are different for different people. It may simply be the mind, it may be the mind and "spirit." It all depends on the individual person's experience.


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## Jenna

CoryKS said:


> Our school uses the term to mean the student's willingness to perform with intensity and to give the maximum effort even after your lung has fallen out and walked off to get a drink.  Sometimes we have kata sessions where the goal is to demonstrate spirit even if the performance degrades somewhat.


Hey CoryKS   I think you are much closer to the mark with this interpretation than the folk suggesting spirit in some way extends from a religious concept.  I much prefer your account.  It is possible to have great spirit without being in the least "spiritual" (the way that term is used in daily parlance).  And by this account, spirit is in no way lacking in most enthusiastic MA clubs and schools imho.  Good post.  Thanks.
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## girlbug2

KELLYG said:


> willingness   Thru all of this there is a breaking down and rebuilding of your personal self.


 
I think I understand. That is very well put.


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## zDom

www.everythingisspiritual.com

My dad asked me to watch it, so I did. I was expecting a dry lecture on theology. 

It was NOT dry, but very entertaining AND interesting/thought provoking.

"In the Hebrew scriptures there is no word for 'spiritual.' And Jesus never used the phrase 'spiritual life.' Because for Jesus and his tradition, all of life is spiritual ... "


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## thardey

I figure that "martial" spirit is alluded to in the willingness to work hard, to overcome, and to expand yourself while practicing, but that is only a shadow of the "spirit" of a warrior.

Most of us hope to never have to tap into that "warrior" spirit, and those who have find their perspective on life forever altered. It's that unknown, almost separate animal nature living deep down inside of you. No dojo training can prepare you for it, and no instructor can teach you to tame it. It's that part of you that's dangerous, that most religions try to starve, or replace, and that most laws try to tether. But even the wisest lawmakers realize that there is a place where the law simply cannot control the spirit of a warrior, it has to make allowances for it, and call it "reasonable doctrine" or "common law."

Once that powerful spirit has been let out of it's "Pandora's Box," the warrior must learn to live with it, and that is a very private matter. For those who haven't felt it, you can't explain it, and for those who have, there is no need to explain.

It's an "awakening," where you realize many things about yourself that you never would have believed. Only one of those things is the true realization that you are dangerous, and there is no need to prove it to yourself anymore. There are many other things, but they are almost impossible to discuss.

Fortunately for me, my spiritual beliefs do not force me to dismiss, cage, or starve this powerful spirit, but instead teaches me how to harness it for good. It does not run me, but I (through my religion) can use it.

Karate does not, nor was it designed to, teach you what this spirit is, or how to live with it. Karate teaches you the tools that this spirit can use when it is called upon. Instead of being a uncontrolled explosion of passion, force, and violence, Karate puts that gunpowder into a barrel, so that the explosion can be focused into propelling the bullet in a specific direction.


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## Errant108

Kacey said:


> Prove it doesn't.  Proving, or disproving, an intangible of that nature is a philosophical exercise - it goes along with proving faith.



You can't prove a negative.  Logic doesn't work like that.

Spirit in martial arts is not developed by talking about it.  If anything, that kills it.


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## Touch Of Death

Errant108 said:


> Prove the spirit exists.


First of all you are arguing the wrong defenition of Spirit. In this context it speaks of your attitude and how you feel about life and your life. You do have attitude, don't you?
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Errant108 said:


> You can't prove a negative. Logic doesn't work like that.
> 
> Spirit in martial arts is not developed by talking about it. If anything, that kills it.


How so?


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## Errant108

Touch Of Death said:


> First of all you are arguing the wrong defenition of Spirit. In this context it speaks of your attitude and how you feel about life and your life. You do have attitude, don't you?
> Sean



I'm not arguing anything.

I'm just asking for proof.


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## Errant108

Touch Of Death said:


> How so?



You are already dead.


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## Touch Of Death

Errant108 said:


> You are already dead.


Wow! That was mind blowing. I should run off and join a school that deosn't believe in developing spirit too.
Sean


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## Xue Sheng

Spirit

There it exists are we done


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## Touch Of Death

Xue Sheng said:


> Spirit
> 
> There it exists are we done


I knew it!


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## Errant108

Touch Of Death said:


> Wow! That was mind blowing. I should run off and join a school that deosn't believe in developing spirit too.
> Sean



Killing chickens.  Breaking eggs.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Xue Sheng said:


> Spirit
> 
> There it exists are we done


 
Xue you are too much!


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## Touch Of Death

Errant108 said:


> Killing chickens. Breaking eggs.


I lack the spirit to try to understand this post.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death

Although the Special Forces makes you kill small animals, to help you learn to kill without feeling icky.... is that what you mean?
Sean


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## Mr G

Holy tread drift , Batman!  How did we get to killing small animals?!

Way back at the beginning, this tread discussed Mind, Body, Spirit.  Knowledge, Strength, and Power.  I wonder why we are trying to separate aspects of ourselves into three.  I don't think about my training as "teach my mind how to kick"  Now "teach my leg how to kick..."  I think the expression is just tying to say that a martial artist in a holistic manner.  This isn't just about a fight.  It doesn't stay at the dojang.  It is a whole life thing.


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## shesulsa

Errant108 said:


> Prove the spirit exists.


Double-blind studies show prayer works better than the placebo affect.  Maybe not proof but definitely worth considering.


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## hkfuie

Funny how this evolved into arguing what is right, rather than allowing people to just express their beliefs and let them be just that - their beliefs.   

I agree with Errant108 that talking kills it.  Almost.    I love the Tao Te Ching and especially the first words...have to look them up...

Well, it's the third line in the translation that I have...

"The unnameable is the eternally real."

It reminds me that spirituality is an experience.

"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal tao."

I went to work out with this awesome guy here locally because he's knowledgeable about bunkai in TKD forms and the first thing he did was tell me some quote about when you tell a child the name of a bird, the child never sees the bird again.  He instead names the bird, rather than experiencing the creature.  He was telling me that by thinking of a block as a block, I limit how I use that movement.  If I KNOW that that name is just a name, I can find new uses for that same movement.  I just LOVE the people I meet in the martial arts!  Can I specifically remember which moves we covered in that one lesson?  No, but I have since explored that concept.  What a teacher!

Everything we name, it is easy to stop experiencing and a challenge to turn off the thoughts about it and just experience what is now.

For ME, and ME ALONE, I am NOT speaking to anyone else's beliefs here on this forum or anywhere else in the WORLD, even the UNIVERSE,  I think that this is how there is spirituality in martial arts.  But I also find it in every bit of life.  Even in the fact that I am alive (And, No I can't PROVE that!)  

I think this was a great topic, girlbug2.  Just the kind of thing I love to hear others opinions on...I just might hear one idea to open a new world of concepts for me.

Thanks for posting the question.


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## kaizasosei

Not to go against great explainations and translations of spirit in cma, for example as Steel Tiger has shared above, i would say that behind every idea and intention, there is spirit.  If it is a good idea, it is also a good spirit if it is a bad idea it might be a bad spirit.-  I don't think it's always that simple relatively speaking though im trying to simplify and unveil the allmightiness of the spirit world.

As it says in one of the socalled lost gospels; when the body comes to be because of the spirit, it is a great thing, but when the spirit comes to be because of the body, it is an even greater thing.

Practicing martial arts or yoga, or dance or simply doing sports or sitting in front of the computer all day or practicing incorrectly to experience injury only to achieve rehabilitation, artists of might, we are like children acting like superman or some super hero.  Sure that sounds a bit childish, but in essence, there are a great deal of martial artists that do not realize this much less that surpass it.  As i see it, it is the the great spirit that is working through us and our accessibility allows for the spirit to reach us on all realms.  We do live in the physical real in physical bodies, so to answer another question as to the greatest benefit of the martial arts, i think it would be that the we can become very open to the great spirit.  sortof like mediums

again it says in the lost gospel(dont remember exact wording); the kingdom of heaven is like a person that is home alone and thinking of his enemy, enraged he picks up his sword and stabs into a slab of wood with his enemy in mind, 
after that he goes forth and kills his enemy.

i know the killing part is sortof freaky, but i believe it's meant to be philosophical and symbolic not murderous really...

j


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## hkfuie

kaizasosei said:


> again it says in the lost gospel(dont remember exact wording); the kingdom of heaven is like a person that is home alone and thinking of his enemy, enraged he picks up his sword and stabs into a slab of wood with his enemy in mind,
> after that he goes forth and kills his enemy.
> 
> i know the killing part is sortof freaky, but i believe it's meant to be philosophical and symbolic not murderous really...
> 
> j


 
I don't understand this quote.  Does anyone have any thoughts about it that would help me see the point?  I don't want to just make a knee-jerk response to it.  there might be more to it.  All I can see is the murderous idea in the quote.  Kaizasosei, you must have a different understanding, perhaps from the larger context of the quote or of the lost gospels?


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## Xue Sheng

Not wishing to put a damper on anyone&#8217;s definition of spirit or their beliefs but the bottom-line here folks is that whole thing, from a Chinese language perspective is a miss understanding of the Chinese language and how Chinese culture defines spirit.

Shen = Spirit = Unified mind 

That is all it is, not religion, not god, not anything of biblical proportions just a unified mind.

Much the same as Kung Fu coming to mean Chinese Martial Arts to the west when it only means hard work, Wushu is the term for Martial Arts in China. This is the kind of thing I am talking about.

Now the discussion of ones personal view of spirit or spirituality in the martial arts is another matter if one whishes to discuss how the practice of martial arts is spiritual to them then by all means go ahead but if it is taking the meaning of Shen and taking that to religion it has nothing to do with it.

Eastern culture does not compartmentalize like we do in the west there is not something called spirituality that is considered seperate from martial arts or daily life it is all the same thing and as I have said multiple times before it is intrinsic.

If you are looking for the rant version of this look to post #18 in this thread.



hkfuie said:


> "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal tao."


 

A good example of this is the Tao....everything comes from Tao. 



> Before heaven and earth were, Tao existed by itself from all time. It gave the spirits and rulers their spiritual powers, and gave Heaven and Earth their birth --the Chuang-tzu


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## Errant108

Xue Sheng hits the point on the head.

If we're talking about the typical "trinity" cited in many Asian martial arts, the majority of the discussion of "spirit" in this thread have been completely off the mark.


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## thardey

Errant108 said:


> Xue Sheng hits the point on the head.
> 
> If we're talking about the typical "trinity" cited in many Asian martial arts, the majority of the discussion of "spirit" in this thread have been completely off the mark.


 
Indeed, I think the "body, soul/mind, and spirit" trinity is definitely a western concept. Not solely western, but the division can be traced back to the renaissance with regard to martial arts.

I attended a seminar a month or two ago about Thibault, a fencing master from the 1600's. Most of his style is integrated with his personal philosophies, so to understand his style, it helps to be familiar with his frame of mind.

The instructor brought up the idea of body, mind, and spirit, or, to be more accurate: spirit, mind, and body. If I remember correctly, the philosophy was that the body was driven by the instinct, the "Animus" (animal nature?) was the term he used. It wasn't so much the motions of the physical body (though that is certainly part of it) but the motivation of the body. 

An untrained fighter will be "controlled" by the body, or the "animus." The overcommitment to actions, primitive reactions, the emotional responses, the tendency to panic, etc. This will influence how the mind perceives the situation, and the mind is now controlled by the body. The mind then controls the "spirit," in this case, the will to fight. The will is lost, and the fighter will give up easily.

A trained fighter will be controlled by the "spirit" -- that is, according to the teacher's interpretation, the certainty of know that what you are doing is "right." There will be no hesitation because you are acting in full accordance with your beliefs. In the case of Thibault, that would mean that you are acting in accordance with "Divine Will" (enter the religious part.) Whatever your religion doesn't really make a difference, as long as you are able to fully believe that you are morally justified in commiting violence against another person. If that "spirit" is in alignment with your religious beliefs (whatever they are), then your mind will be empowered to pursue those beliefs. With the mind/soul, thus empowered, it is able to control the body, and use it as a servant to the "spiritual" desires. You are able to overcome the primitive desires of the body, and perform better, calmer, and longer.

Now, this is from memory, and is my interpretation of the interpretation of the instructor. But the reason it stuck out to me is that it parallels some of my basic theology. This isn't surprising, because Thibault was influenced by Christianity, and I am a Christian, so yeah.

According to "tricotamists" who believe that we are divided into Body, Soul, and Spirit, the condition of those who have not been "born again" is the same as the description of the untrained fighter, above. The spirit is weak, sick, or completely dead, leaving the primitive desires of the body in charge of actions. These are selfish desires, and usually result in selfish actions. The body's desires control the mind, which is then used to provide the body with what it desires.

The "born again" person refers to the rebirth, or awakening, of the "spirit" which, over time, begins to take control of the person, eventually using the mind to control the body. Of course, the more "mature" or in control your "spirit" is, the closer you are to God. The closer you are to God, the more power the spirit has, since the spirit recieves it's power from God. This often what people refer to when they talk about the "Holy Spirit" -- that is, the spirit that is the connection between our body, soul, and God.

Not to get preachy, but this is the "philosophy" section.

But that is why I believe that the original idea of "spirit" in this thread, and in fact the idea of "sprit" in general in the west, is a cultural thing influenced by the christianity of the west, not so much by the philosophy of the east.


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## Xue Sheng

thardey said:


> Indeed, I think the "body, soul/mind, and spirit" trinity is definitely a western concept. Not solely western, but the division can be traced back to the renaissance with regard to martial arts.


 
I believe it is this western concept that mess up a lot of people when they look deeper into Asian Martial Arts, particularly Chinese martial arts, because they see "Spirit" and instantaneously go to spirit as known in Western Religion when in fact Shen which is translated as spirit has little to do with the Western definition and actually is talking about a Unified mind. And it is not a religious concept at all but just something you need to train martial arts. But then what can further mess us westerners up is that Shen or a unified mind is a big part of Buddhism which is a religion but shen itself is not religious only something you need to further your studies of things like Buddhism.


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