# Creating your own custom martial arts.



## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?

As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)


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## Gnarlie (Dec 5, 2018)

Could use some punctuation. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

Gnarlie said:


> Could use some punctuation.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


Ah ok i will do my best to punctuate, it was a bit rushed, but overall did you like the little tutorial for martial artists like ourselves to create our very own martial arts that are practical? =)

Edit: just did my best to punctuate, hope the reading is more bearable now =)


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?
> 
> As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)


It doesn’t seem to be more than a rushed attempt at an explanation of power generation- nothing there about creating a customized martial art.


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## Martial D (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?
> 
> As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)


This is an extremely poorly written (punctuation? Paragraphs) blurb full of sort of sometimes true-mostly true generalities that read as if the author is working with mostly second hand information.

I also don't see how this relates to the title.  So how do we create a martial art from this?

No offense, and nothing personal, but this is my honest impression.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> This is an extremely poorly written (punctuation? Paragraphs) blurb full of sort of sometimes true-mostly true generalities that read as if the author is working with mostly second hand information.
> 
> I also don't see how this relates to the title.  So how do we create a martial art from this?
> 
> No offense, and nothing personal, but this is my honest impression.


 The point in this tutorial is to create an efficient martial art by making adjustments to optimize the techniques you have learned and trained from prior martial arts experience((example: taekwondo,aikijutsu,boxing,etc)) and breaking them down to make the customized martial arts more practical and simplisticso you should already be able to do at least basic punches kicks and strikes, but the point is to draw power from the ground and directing that power from point A to point B in the quickest and nontelegraphed manner, and to do that you need to make adjustments to your techniques, you need to let the kick do the kick for you and same principle applies in punching, as in letting the power you draw from the ground do the punching/kicking while you keep the leg/arm loose, you generate power by doing a quick push off from the back leg rapidly which allows you to quickly direct the energy from the ground through your body through your punch/kick and into your target, think of that quick push off the ground using the back leg as a jolt rather than simply a push, and to make your punch and kick faster, you must cut off unnecessary movements, "chambering" your kicks shouldn't be a forced movement instead the power you drew from the ground will "auto chamber" for you without a conscious effort on your part, and regarding the hip twist we were taught to rotate our hips to generate power, but the hip is only a medium for the power you drew from the ground through that rapid push off from the back leg, the hip twist also shouldn't be a conscious effort it should come along naturally as you draw power from the ground using that quick jolt off the back leg,that should make your kick faster more powerful and not telegraphed, and as for the punching technique, the one i have answered in the original post was from boxing((yes i cross trained with taekwondo and boxing and some aikijutsu, not necessarily to highly advanced levels but enough to where i understand the fundamental concepts behind the striking,kicking,grappling with proficiency)) to punch without telegraphing your punches, you need to cut off movements that makes the punch easy to read,such as large shoulder movements,elbows flaring out,and unconsciously winding your punch, after doing that you can now draw power from the ground by rapidly pushing off your back leg((like a quick jolt, not a simple push)) and with your elbows tucked, with a non-forced hip twist, punch straight into your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fist all in one motion,that should make for a fast direct powerful right to the point punching technique without telegraphing the punch, and to cover grappling just about any martial arts focused on grappling such as aikijutsu ,judo,jiujitsu,etc should cover the grappling aspect, the point is to build a martial art using foundations you built through prior martial arts training, making adjustments to the techniques you have learned and trained with, to create a custom and efficient martial arts that works for you ^^


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> The point in this tutorial is to create an efficient martial art by making adjustments to optimize the techniques you have learned and trained from prior martial arts experience((example: taekwondo,aikijutsu,boxing,etc)) and breaking them down to make the customized martial arts more practical and simplisticso you should already be able to do at least basic punches kicks and strikes, but the point is to draw power from the ground and directing that power from point A to point B in the quickest and nontelegraphed manner, and to do that you need to make adjustments to your techniques, you need to let the kick do the kick for you and same principle applies in punching, as in letting the power you draw from the ground do the punching/kicking while you keep the leg/arm loose, you generate power by doing a quick push off from the back leg rapidly which allows you to quickly direct the energy from the ground through your body through your punch/kick and into your target, think of that quick push off the ground using the back leg as a jolt rather than simply a push, and to make your punch and kick faster, you must cut off unnecessary movements, "chambering" your kicks shouldn't be a forced movement instead the power you drew from the ground will "auto chamber" for you without a conscious effort on your part, and regarding the hip twist we were taught to rotate our hips to generate power, but the hip is only a medium for the power you drew from the ground through that rapid push off from the back leg, the hip twist also shouldn't be a conscious effort it should come along naturally as you draw power from the ground using that quick jolt off the back leg,that should make your kick faster more powerful and not telegraphed, and as for the punching technique, the one i have answered in the original post was from boxing((yes i cross trained with taekwondo and boxing and some aikijutsu, not necessarily to highly advanced levels but enough to where i understand the fundamental concepts behind the striking,kicking,grappling with proficiency)) to punch without telegraphing your punches, you need to cut off movements that makes the punch easy to read,such as large shoulder movements,elbows flaring out,and unconsciously winding your punch, after doing that you can now draw power from the ground by rapidly pushing off your back leg((like a quick jolt, not a simple push)) and with your elbows tucked, with a non-forced hip twist, punch straight into your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fist all in one motion,that should make for a fast direct powerful right to the point punching technique without telegraphing the punch, and to cover grappling just about any martial arts focused on grappling such as aikijutsu ,judo,jiujitsu,etc should cover the grappling aspect, the point is to build a martial art using foundations you built through prior martial arts training, making adjustments to the techniques you have learned and trained with, to create a custom and efficient martial arts that works for you ^^


Again, it appears to just be discussing some basic principles of power generation. Those are not really new to folks with experience. They don't tune arts into something new and customized - they are principles found (in different forms) in pretty much every art.


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## Martial D (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> The point in this tutorial is to create an efficient martial art by making adjustments to optimize the techniques you have learned and trained from prior martial arts experience((example: taekwondo,aikijutsu,boxing,etc)) and breaking them down to make the customized martial arts more practical and simplisticso you should already be able to do at least basic punches kicks and strikes, but the point is to draw power from the ground and directing that power from point A to point B in the quickest and nontelegraphed manner, and to do that you need to make adjustments to your techniques, you need to let the kick do the kick for you and same principle applies in punching, as in letting the power you draw from the ground do the punching/kicking while you keep the leg/arm loose, you generate power by doing a quick push off from the back leg rapidly which allows you to quickly direct the energy from the ground through your body through your punch/kick and into your target, think of that quick push off the ground using the back leg as a jolt rather than simply a push, and to make your punch and kick faster, you must cut off unnecessary movements, "chambering" your kicks shouldn't be a forced movement instead the power you drew from the ground will "auto chamber" for you without a conscious effort on your part, and regarding the hip twist we were taught to rotate our hips to generate power, but the hip is only a medium for the power you drew from the ground through that rapid push off from the back leg, the hip twist also shouldn't be a conscious effort it should come along naturally as you draw power from the ground using that quick jolt off the back leg,that should make your kick faster more powerful and not telegraphed, and as for the punching technique, the one i have answered in the original post was from boxing((yes i cross trained with taekwondo and boxing and some aikijutsu, not necessarily to highly advanced levels but enough to where i understand the fundamental concepts behind the striking,kicking,grappling with proficiency)) to punch without telegraphing your punches, you need to cut off movements that makes the punch easy to read,such as large shoulder movements,elbows flaring out,and unconsciously winding your punch, after doing that you can now draw power from the ground by rapidly pushing off your back leg((like a quick jolt, not a simple push)) and with your elbows tucked, with a non-forced hip twist, punch straight into your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fist all in one motion,that should make for a fast direct powerful right to the point punching technique without telegraphing the punch, and to cover grappling just about any martial arts focused on grappling such as aikijutsu ,judo,jiujitsu,etc should cover the grappling aspect, the point is to build a martial art using foundations you built through prior martial arts training, making adjustments to the techniques you have learned and trained with, to create a custom and efficient martial arts that works for you ^^


Since your intention seems to be to have people read what you say, you might want to format your writing into sentences and paragraphs. Punctuation wouldn't hurt either.

With that out of the way, I can't help but wonder if you have ever heard of mixed martial arts.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Since your intention seems to be to have people read what you say, you might want to format your writing into sentences and paragraphs. Punctuation wouldn't hurt either.
> 
> With that out of the way, I can't help but wonder if you have ever heard of mixed martial arts.


I understand english isn't my first language((vietnamese)), but i will put more effort in learning more english, and to improve on punctuation skills, and about mixed martial arts i heard of it, it is where practicioners also cross trained in several martial arts like i have with taekwondo, boxing, aikijutsu, etc right? If so yes i have heard of mixed martial arts, but going into highly public events while wearing nothing but shorts doesn't seem to appeal to me you see((comfortable wearing dobok, or at least a shirt))


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Again, it appears to just be discussing some basic principles of power generation. Those are not really new to folks with experience. They don't tune arts into something new and customized - they are principles found (in different forms) in pretty much every art.


 there is more to it than just power generation, things like timing and avoid telegraphing your punch,kick,and strikes and cutting out unneeded movements to increase the delivery speed of your punching kicking and striking techniques is also very important, however i forgot to mention evasion work in the tutorial which is better to make use of than blocks whenever possible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> there is more to it than just power generation, things like timing and avoid telegraphing your punch,kick,and strikes and cutting out unneeded movements to increase the delivery speed of your punching kicking and striking techniques is also very important, however i forgot to mention evasion work in the tutorial which is better to make use of than blocks whenever possible.


Yes. And every art I'm aware of has at least some components of those things. The information you provide is generic, and really not about creating a custom art.


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## Martial D (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I understand english isn't my first language((vietnamese)), but i will put more effort in learning more english, and to improve on punctuation skills, and about mixed martial arts i heard of it, it is where practicioners also cross trained in several martial arts like i have with taekwondo, boxing, aikijutsu, etc right? If so yes i have heard of mixed martial arts, but going into highly public events while wearing nothing but shorts doesn't seem to appeal to me you see((comfortable wearing dobok, or at least a shirt))


Cool. I'm sure your English is much better than my Vietnamese, but then again I'm not trying to give a tutorial in that language.

As has been mentioned, what you are talking about is something most serious martial arts to already do, especially in mma.

Here in North America mma is already quite popular, and entails everything you just described. What you are talking about isn't creating a new art, it's learning how to fight.


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## skribs (Dec 5, 2018)

I'll be honest.  I only read the first few sentences.

Having perfect punctuation isn't important.  Separate each sentence with a period, and if there is a point in the middle of a sentence where you might pause, use a comma.  Other than that, it's not about having perfect grammar so much as it is separating and connecting ideas.  If you don't use everything right that's okay, it just makes it more readable.  One thing I do is put 2 spaces after each sentence.  People say you don't have to do that anymore, but I find it still helps.

Paragraphs are a good way to do this.  You'll notice most of the other posts in this thread have done that.  Even I've done that.  Each paragraph discusses a different thought.  Or sometimes if a single thought is too long, you can extend it to multiple paragraphs.  It gives your readers a bit of a break, and also helps give them a frame of reference for where they are in the sheet.  My first paragraph talked about how much I read.  It didn't need much more.  My second paragraph talked a little about punctuation.

But my third paragraph, about paragraphs ironically, was getting a little long.  It's easy to keep your eyes on the line when you're only a couple lines up or down from the paragraph break (the line between paragraphs).  But it gets a lot harder when there are...14 lines in a huge block of text, which is what shows up in your original post.  This is why when my paragraph was starting to get a little bit longer than I'd like, I cut it into 2 pieces.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 5, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Cool. I'm sure your English is much better than my Vietnamese, but then again I'm not trying to give a tutorial in that language.
> 
> As has been mentioned, what you are talking about is something most serious martial arts to already do, especially in mma.
> 
> Here in North America mma is already quite popular, and entails everything you just described. What you are talking about isn't creating a new art, it's learning how to fight.


 ah yes you seem to be right, the whole tutorial i made is more like mixed martial arts, and also more about refining and optomizing the martial arts techniques you have learned to be more practical for fighting which is essentially what mixed martial arts is about,rather than creating an entirely new martial art.

 i apologize for not being able to distinguish the differences between the refinement of martial arts techniques we have learned and that of creating an entirely new martial art, oh and skribbs thank you for the lesson in making paragraphs and punctuation, it is very helpful. ^^


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## dvcochran (Dec 5, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?
> 
> As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)



That is one long run-on sentence. So what is your question?


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## Bruce7 (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?
> 
> As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)



I am not trying to be rude to you, but the answer to your question is NO, we don't need a new martial art. Many people have spent their lives developing their Martial Art. Your time would be better spent finding the best Martial Artist instructor you can find and practice. if you train many years with the right instructor, you will not want a new martial art. I do think it is a good Idea not to learn only one martial. Learning a different Martial Art from an amazing instructor will improved your abilities greatly. All the great Martial Artist knew other arts besides the one they teach.


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?


I think that after a certain point a martial artist should have grown in his study that his art has become "customized" to himself and, in a way, unique.  Before that, as he begins his learning, it works best to have a pattern to follow.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> The point in this tutorial


Oh, a tutorial?  Never mind then. I don't need it and the folks that do need one aren't in a place where they know enough that they can or should "create" a personalized martial art.

Most of the time that I see this sort of question, it's coming from a pretty young person who ultimately want to be a "master" or progenitor of a style and be venerated for that after watching too many Shaw Brothers movies.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> there is more to it than just power generation, things like timing and avoid telegraphing your punch,kick,and strikes and cutting out unneeded movements to increase the delivery speed of your punching kicking and striking techniques is also very important, however i forgot to mention evasion work in the tutorial which is better to make use of than blocks whenever possible.


These things are foundational to, literally, every martial art.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 6, 2018)

lklawson said:


> I think that after a certain point a martial artist should have grown in his study that his art has become "customized" to himself and, in a way, unique.  Before that, as he begins his learning, it works best to have a pattern to follow.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 Hi iklawson you are correct in some ways, but there are times when a martial artist would want to create a more simplified and practical version of the arts they have learned, making adjustments and refinements to the techniques they have trained with.

 what i mean by simplifying their martial arts to make it more practical, i am refering to cutting out impractical techniques such as the tornado kick, high side kick, hook kick and opting for more practical kicks such as the front kick, low roundhouse kick to the shin, a roundhouse kick to an unguarded head, knee kick against opponents that attempt takedowns, and as for striking techniques cutting out reverse punch and spear hands, and then opt for a straight punch with the fore knuckles to the body, a palm strike to the head , elbow strikes against opponents that managed to get in close range for grappling

those kinds of simplifications and adjustments to their martial arts fighting style, and the thing you said about watching movies, i don't watch movies, i still attend classes in taekwondo with vietnamese taekwondo grandmaster Dang Huy Duc as a brown belt and i do Tenshikai Aikijutsu under vietnamese aikido master Dang Thong Phong as blue belt((you can look both of my masters up)) and i do attend a boxing gym as to cover the punches that taekwondo barely has((covering the aspects of punching and kicking by training in both boxing and taekwondo, and grappling covered by aikijutsu)).

 with that aside although my rankings are not first dan black belt and above, i have already understood the concepts and have great deal proficiency in striking kicking and punching, i even made adjustments that they don't explicitly teach in class, such as not forcing the leg into a chamber position but rather allowing the kicking leg to auto chamber and fire by the power you draw from the ground, allowing the hip to rotate by itself as you perform the kicking and striking techniques rather than doing it manually, boxing is perfect as it is for punching, because it covers that you draw power from the ground, but more importantly how to not telegraph your punches unlike what we would do in taekwondo.

 but the main point is you create a martial that suits your needs for each aspect and be able to apply them in serious situations such as a life threatening situations, but however i do respect that one needs prior martial arts experience before they can think about combining their martial arts styles they have learned =)


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> Hi iklawson you are correct in some ways, but there are times when a martial artist would want to create a more simplified and practical version of the arts they have learned, making adjustments and refinements to the techniques they have trained with.
> 
> what i mean by simplifying their martial arts to make it more practical, i am refering to cutting out impractical techniques such as the tornado kick, high side kick, hook kick and opting for more practical kicks such as the front kick, low roundhouse kick to the shin, a roundhouse kick to an unguarded head, knee kick against opponents that attempt takedowns, and as for striking techniques cutting out reverse punch and spear hands, and then opt for a straight punch with the fore knuckles to the body, a palm strike to the head , elbow strikes against opponents that managed to get in close range for grappling, those kinds of simplifications and adjustments to their martial arts fighting style, and the thing you said about watching movies, i don't watch movies, i still attend classes in taekwondo with vietnamese taekwondo grandmaster Dang Huy Duc as a brownd belt and i do Tenshikai Aikijutsu under vietnamese aikido master Dang Thong Phong as blue belt((you can look both of my masters up)) and i do attend a boxing gym as to cover the punches that taekwondo barely has((covering the aspects of punching and kicking by training in both boxing and taekwondo, and grappling covered by aikijutsu)), with that aside although my rankings are not first dan black belt and above, i have already understood the concepts and have great deal proficiency in striking kicking and punching, i even made adjustments that they don't explicitly teach in class, such as not forcing the leg into a chamber position but rather allowing the kicking leg to auto chamber and fire by the power you draw from the ground, allowing the hip to rotate by itself as you perform the kicking and striking techniques rather than doing it manually, boxing is perfect as it is for punching, because it covers that you draw power from the ground, but more importantly how to not telegraph your punches unlike what we would do in taekwondo, but the main point is you create a martial that suits your needs for each aspect and be able to apply them in serious situations such as a life threatening situations, but however i do respect that one needs prior martial arts experience before they can think about combining their martial arts styles they have learned =)


You learn what works for you by training and by experience. And it will change over time with changes in your skill, experience, and physical condition.

You are over-complicating this.  Just train under an instructor who knows how to fight and do what he tells you.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## pdg (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> Hi iklawson you are correct in some ways, but there are times when a martial artist would want to create a more simplified and practical version of the arts they have learned, making adjustments and refinements to the techniques they have trained with.
> 
> what i mean by simplifying their martial arts to make it more practical, i am refering to cutting out impractical techniques such as the tornado kick, high side kick, hook kick and opting for more practical kicks such as the front kick, low roundhouse kick to the shin, a roundhouse kick to an unguarded head, knee kick against opponents that attempt takedowns, and as for striking techniques cutting out reverse punch and spear hands, and then opt for a straight punch with the fore knuckles to the body, a palm strike to the head , elbow strikes against opponents that managed to get in close range for grappling, those kinds of simplifications and adjustments to their martial arts fighting style, and the thing you said about watching movies, i don't watch movies, i still attend classes in taekwondo with vietnamese taekwondo grandmaster Dang Huy Duc as a brown belt and i do Tenshikai Aikijutsu under vietnamese aikido master Dang Thong Phong as blue belt((you can look both of my masters up)) and i do attend a boxing gym as to cover the punches that taekwondo barely has((covering the aspects of punching and kicking by training in both boxing and taekwondo, and grappling covered by aikijutsu)), with that aside although my rankings are not first dan black belt and above, i have already understood the concepts and have great deal proficiency in striking kicking and punching, i even made adjustments that they don't explicitly teach in class, such as not forcing the leg into a chamber position but rather allowing the kicking leg to auto chamber and fire by the power you draw from the ground, allowing the hip to rotate by itself as you perform the kicking and striking techniques rather than doing it manually, boxing is perfect as it is for punching, because it covers that you draw power from the ground, but more importantly how to not telegraph your punches unlike what we would do in taekwondo, but the main point is you create a martial that suits your needs for each aspect and be able to apply them in serious situations such as a life threatening situations, but however i do respect that one needs prior martial arts experience before they can think about combining their martial arts styles they have learned =)



None of that is really creating a customised martial art though.

I do wonder if you truly know the meaning of the words being used?

What you call refining techniques to make them more efficient I call "training".

Getting rid of techniques - all well and good until that time comes when something you specifically and intentionally chose to ignore is the best course of action.

High side kick works very well indeed if you are capable of using it.

A hook kick can put someone off balance extremely efficiently - if you are capable of using it.

A tornado kick - well it's probably not ideal as an intentional go to move, but if that roundhouse misses because they step back then why waste the momentum you created?

Conversely, something like a low roundhouse kick to the shin is a very low value move.

Train what you're good at, improve what you're not so good at, don't use what puts you in the floor - it's hardly rocket surgery.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 6, 2018)

pdg said:


> None of that is really creating a customised martial art though.
> 
> I do wonder if you truly know the meaning of the words being used?
> 
> ...


 yes you do have a point that it should be common sense to not use blatantly impractical techniques like the tornado kick, the low roundhouse kick to the side of the knee is what i meant not the shin if you kick hard enough you could put the opponent out of commission, and the reason why i called high side kick impractical it is because it is not just slower to execute than other kicks, but it is because it is more telegraphed and once your opponent are aware of the side kick they can easily sidestep and counter attack.

But you are right that the high side kick still has its uses but it would be best to execute when the opponent is in a weakened state or execute it as a surprise when they are less likely to react.


and yes absolutely training is great major part of refining the techniques, however i meant the other half where you could make adjustments to the technique you train with, like opting for letting the power you draw from the ground to auto rotate your hips and auto chamber and auto extending the kick all simultaneously in one motion in a very fast time frame, and getting rid of any micro movements that would telegraph your techniques to the opponent especially opponents that are keen of telegraphic movements.

But all in all i absolutely agree a martial artist should always do what works for them and don't do what doesn't work for them.

If possible i would like to change the post title to "combining learned martial arts disciplines, and optomizing the combined martial arts for practical usage in sparring or situations that necessitates self defense".


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## pdg (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> like opting for letting the power you draw from the ground to auto rotate your hips and auto chamber and auto extending the kick all simultaneously in one motion in a very fast time frame



I was going to mention this bit too.

If your active turning kick (say) consists of prepare, chamber, rotate, extend, kick - you don't know the kick.

The whole thing is one fluid move in application.

In practice, in training, in patterns, in line work - then it's broken down into the separate components to build muscle memory.

In sparring I only ever do a deliberate and separate chamber (or any other portion of any technique) as a distraction...


From my interpretation of the criteria in your posts that means I have created my own customised martial art, only I haven't. I don't do pdg-fu, I do TKD.

Likewise, every martial artist who has honed their skill has, by your definition, created their own customised martial art - only they haven't. Only the most pretentious of practitioners would claim to have done so.

There are people who have customised, and have developed, and have merged and mixed - but the honest ones describe what they have done and never hide their inspiration.


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## lklawson (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> yes you do have a point that it should be common sense to not use blatantly impractical techniques like the tornado kick, the low roundhouse kick to the side of the knee is what i meant not the shin if you kick hard enough you could put the opponent out of commission, and the reason why i called high side kick impractical it is because it is not just slower to execute than other kicks, but it is because it is more telegraphed and once your opponent are aware of the side kick they can easily sidestep and counter attack.
> 
> But you are right that the high side kick still has its uses but it would be best to execute when the opponent is in a weakened state or execute it as a surprise when they are less likely to react.
> 
> ...


Friend, from what you have written so far, I just think you are barking up the wrong tree.  I get the feeling that you are trying to get ahead of yourself in your training and martial arts career.  To be honest, that is not a big deal because I think most people try to plan ahead of where they are in their martial arts journey and usually miss the mark because they "don't know what they don't know" (to borrow a phrase).  That said, we're here trying to let you know.  It is our combined experience that you should just find someone who knows how to fight and learn from him.  He will teach you what you need to know and he will help you "customize" the techniques and strategies of his fighting style to your body, your mind, and your capabilities as you learn and grow.

Moving on: Your formatting and use of paragraphs has improved.  This post is more readable than the last.  Good job.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> yes you do have a point that it should be common sense to not use blatantly impractical techniques like the tornado kick, the low roundhouse kick to the side of the knee is what i meant not the shin if you kick hard enough you could put the opponent out of commission, and the reason why i called high side kick impractical it is because it is not just slower to execute than other kicks, but it is because it is more telegraphed and once your opponent are aware of the side kick they can easily sidestep and counter attack.
> 
> But you are right that the high side kick still has its uses but it would be best to execute when the opponent is in a weakened state or execute it as a surprise when they are less likely to react.
> 
> ...



Do you do a martial art that allows you to develop your own game?

Or is this thread dependant on having to manage a super structured system.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 6, 2018)

*I think it is very practical and has been going on before are time here on earth every style came from another at one point.Now to me personally every single martial  art has something to offer and every single martial art has something they could add.Some might think there styles are flawless, but if you cross train a little i think can only make you better for instance say two guys have the same skills in bjj ,but  one the guy's  also maybe a blk belt or highly skilled in one or more arts who is going to be the more complete fighter imho. I think if mma taught anyone anything is that there is always room for improvements !*


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Do you do a martial art that allows you to develop your own game?
> 
> Or is this thread dependant on having to manage a super structured system.


I do 3 seperate martial arts being Taekwondo under grandmaster Dang Huy Duc being brown belt in that discipline, Aikijutsu under master Dang Thong Phong being blue belt in that discipline, and Boxing at a local boxing gym, however i am thinking of mixed martial arts being exactly the discipline i am looking at, as it contains all aspects of being a complete martial arts system that allows you to combine multiple disciplines of martial arts that you have learned.




Denoaikido said:


> I think its very practical and has been going on before are time here on earth every style came from another at one point.Now to me personally every single martial  art has something to offer and every single martial art has something they could add.Some might think there styles are flawless, but if you cross train a little i think can only make you better for instance say two guys have the same skills in bjj ,but  one the guy's  also maybe a blk belt or highly skilled in one or more arts who is going to be the more complete fighter imho. I think if mma taught anyone anything is that there is always room for improvements !


yes i absolutely agree all martial arts have things to offer,cross training allows you to attain certain skills and techniques that one art has that the other might not have, for instance if one only trained in striking arts he will have trouble on the ground, or if one only trained in grappling arts he would be too passive, whereas the one who has trained in both striking and grappling arts will be able to handle the 2 scenarios efficiently in contrast to the other 2 martial artists who didn't train for their respective opposing elements, and that is absolutely correct that there is always room for improvement, getting to a high level isn't the end of your martial arts journey rather it is a endless journey to continue improving as a martial artist.


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## drop bear (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I do 3 seperate martial arts being Taekwondo under grandmaster Dang Huy Duc being brown belt in that discipline, Aikijutsu under master Dang Thong Phong being blue belt in that discipline, and Boxing at a local boxing gym, however i am thinking of mixed martial arts being exactly the discipline i am looking at, as it contains all aspects of being a complete martial arts system that allows you to combine multiple disciplines of martial arts that you have learned.



Sounds fair.

Do MMA.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sounds fair.
> 
> Do MMA.


I will do so thank you.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> Hi iklawson you are correct in some ways, but there are times when a martial artist would want to create a more simplified and practical version of the arts they have learned, making adjustments and refinements to the techniques they have trained with.
> 
> what i mean by simplifying their martial arts to make it more practical, i am refering to cutting out impractical techniques such as the tornado kick, high side kick, hook kick and opting for more practical kicks such as the front kick, low roundhouse kick to the shin, a roundhouse kick to an unguarded head, knee kick against opponents that attempt takedowns, and as for striking techniques cutting out reverse punch and spear hands, and then opt for a straight punch with the fore knuckles to the body, a palm strike to the head , elbow strikes against opponents that managed to get in close range for grappling
> 
> ...



Thank you, this post explains a lot. I may agree or disagree with you , but now I understand you a lot better.
Kicking: Given that Chung Do Kwan was one of the first Kwans and is known for its overall power and emphasis on kicks to the head agrees with what you are saying. I learn Moo Duk Kwan before Taekwondo became a sport, we spent 40% of our time working on hand techniques and 60% of our time on kicking so not all Taekwondo works only on Kicking.
*I agree with you on high side kicks, *when I was a young man I could side kick almost straight up, but sparing or fighting my side kicks were no higher than the chest. It is your chose on how you do your side kick, your side kick sounds like the way I did it went I studied long fist Kung Fu, personally I prefer the power of the Taekwondo side. This is just my opinion if you do not do a traditional Taekwondo side kick you are giving up something special.
*I total agree that you can learn a great deal from boxing. *
Did you know when Ali knock out Sonny Liston , he said he used a reverse punch. It looked like an overhand right to me, but Ali was so fast who knows.
Your grandmaster taught the South Vietnamese Army, I am sure he could teach you a lot about hand techniques.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 6, 2018)

lklawson said:


> Friend, from what you have written so far, I just think you are barking up the wrong tree.  I get the feeling that you are trying to get ahead of yourself in your training and martial arts career.  To be honest, that is not a big deal because I think most people try to plan ahead of where they are in their martial arts journey and usually miss the mark because they "don't know what they don't know" (to borrow a phrase).  That said, we're here trying to let you know.  It is our combined experience that you should just find someone who knows how to fight and learn from him.  He will teach you what you need to know and he will help you "customize" the techniques and strategies of his fighting style to your body, your mind, and your capabilities as you learn and grow.
> 
> Moving on: Your formatting and use of paragraphs has improved.  This post is more readable than the last.  Good job.
> 
> ...


I would suggest a more liberal use of periods, however.


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I am wondering what fellow martial artists think about this little tutorial about creating our very own martial arts that is to be practical and functional?
> 
> As martial artists we know that martial arts is a method of using your body and limbs as a weapon, for generating power use the energy you draw from the ground as a power source rather than muscle power, don't overcommit on twisting the hip, because overcommiting the hip twist into a punch or kick ironically robs most of the speed and power from the punch and kick, instead do just the right amount of hip twist while you draw power from the ground pushing off the back leg simultaneously in one motion in your punches and kicks, if performed correctly you might notice the punches and kicks are faster and more powerful than the punches and kicks you have most likely performed before, because the power you draw from the ground through the quick push of your back leg generates alot of power ,speed, and acceleration for the striking and kicking techniques than other techniques that lack that quick push off the back leg, then once you accomplished that focus on cutting off unnecessary movements in your techniques, such as raising your knees high for kicking, instead let the kicking leg be loose so when you draw power from the back leg((which can be the kicking leg)), and do a non exaggerated hip twist the kick will be faster and more powerful and most importantly non-telegraphed, which means you can mostly likely kick your opponent without them reacting to it, because you aren't signalling your attacking intentions, the same applies in punching don't flare out your elbow or wind back to punch, instead keep your elbows tucked and while you draw power from the ground through the quick push off your back leg and a non exaggerated hip twist, punch your opponent with the 2 protruding knuckles of either fists right off the bat with none of the telegraphed movements mentioned, no winding your punches, and no flaring out your elbows and you shall see improvements in your punching ,kicking, and striking techniques in your custom martial arts, just add leg stretching for flexibility, speed training for explosive power and speed, bag work,conditioning drills, strengthening exercises, plyometrics, aerobic exercises, and if you want you can incorporate some grappling techniques borrowed from grappling martial arts, and sparring practices, and you may just have successfully created your very own functional and practical martial arts =)



Fifteen years old. Starts thread about creating your own custom martial arts....

Damn, it's got to be great being young.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 6, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> Thank you, this post explains a lot. I may agree or disagree with you , but now I understand you a lot better.
> Kicking: Given that Chung Do Kwan was one of the first Kwans and is known for its overall power and emphasis on kicks to the head agrees with what you are saying. I learn Moo Duk Kwan before Taekwondo became a sport, we spent 40% of our time working on hand techniques and 60% of our time on kicking so not all Taekwondo works only on Kicking.
> *I agree with you on high side kicks, *when I was a young man I could side kick almost straight up, but sparing or fighting my side kicks were no higher than the chest. It is your chose on how you do your side kick, your side kick sounds like the way I did it went I studied long fist Kung Fu, personally I prefer the power of the Taekwondo side. This is just my opinion if you do not do a traditional Taekwondo side kick you are giving up something special.
> *I total agree that you can learn a great deal from boxing. *
> ...


That is very Interesting Chung Do Kwan as i have looked up is a martial art that was trained under by general Choi Hong Hi who is the founder of ITF Taekwondo by combining his disciplines in Shotokan Karate and Taekkyon including Chung Do Kwan and is the one who taught my grandmaster Dang Huy Duc Taekwondo, and you are right Chung Do Kwan is a martial art that is known for its power and emphasis on kicks to the head.

 and yes i absolutely agree Boxing is a great complement with Taekwondo because you learn alot about executing fast powerful and precise punches with great timing along with evasion work, and as for Muhammad Ali he is a very famous boxer known for his great speed and power, i don't doubt that he could execute a reverse punch with such a speed that it would look like an overhand right.

 and yes my taekwondo grandmaster Dang Huy Duc did taught several hand techniques such as the knife hand, hammer fist, reverse knife hand, spear hand, reverse punch, straight punch, and palm heel strike, and there are probably more hand techniques from first dan black belt and above that he hasn't taught me yet having only reached brown belt at the moment, i will continue my taekwondo training to learn the techniques that may be taught at first dan black belt and above before i will enroll in mixed martial arts in the future, and as for the traditional taekwondo side kick i agree it is very powerful and can be effective if executed at the right opportunity, preferably in a combination with punches and other kicking techniques like the roundhouse kick and front kick, and only doing the side kick at chest and gut level during sparring or fighting.

Those are great points you have brought up thank you. =)


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 6, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Sounds fair.
> 
> Do MMA.


He walked into that one for you, DB. We can't count it.


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## Bruce7 (Dec 7, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> That is very Interesting Chung Do Kwan as i have looked up is a martial art that was trained under by general Choi Hong Hi who is the founder of ITF Taekwondo by combining his disciplines in Shotokan Karate and Taekkyon including Chung Do Kwan and is the one who taught my grandmaster Dang Huy Duc Taekwondo, and you are right Chung Do Kwan is a martial art that is known for its power and emphasis on kicks to the head.
> 
> and yes i absolutely agree Boxing is a great complement with Taekwondo because you learn alot about executing fast powerful and precise punches with great timing along with evasion work, and as for Muhammad Ali he is a very famous boxer known for his great speed and power, i don't doubt that he could execute a reverse punch with such a speed that it would look like an overhand right.
> 
> ...



I real;y liked your post.
When I was your age I though if I worked hard throw the magic of martial arts I could beat everyone except my instructors. I was in the navy in my prime with 5 or 6 years of Martial Arts training, I was in the Gym and an All Navy Boxer was lightly making fun of Martial Arts. So I got in the ring with him, the only rule was we wore boxing gloves.
With in about 3 or 4 minutes of sparing he knock me out. The only time in my life I have ever been knock out. I could not figure out why I could not beat him he was my size. I later figured out, he train in his art of boxing 8 hours a day 6 days a week and travel once a month to fight the best fighters in the arm services.  I had to do a job ,so I only train 2 hours a day, The main ingredient in the magic of Martial Arts is training.


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 7, 2018)

Bruce7 said:


> I real;y liked your post.
> When I was your age I though if I worked hard throw the magic of martial arts I could beat everyone except my instructors. I was in the navy in my prime with 5 or 6 years of Martial Arts training, I was in the Gym and an All Navy Boxer was lightly making fun of Martial Arts. So I got in the ring with him, the only rule was we wore boxing gloves.
> With in about 3 or 4 minutes of sparing he knock me out. The only time in my life I have ever been knock out. I could not figure out why I could not beat him he was my size. I later figured out, he train in his art of boxing 8 hours a day 6 days a week and travel once a month to fight the best fighters in the arm services.  I had to do a job ,so I only train 2 hours a day, The main ingredient in the magic of Martial Arts is training.


I absolutely agree that training with diligence is what allows all martial arts techniques to work with great efficiency, i usually train 3 times a week with 2 hours in Taekwondo and 2 times a week with Boxing of 1 and half hours and Aikijutsu on the weekends of 2 hours, continuous training along with dedication to improving your techniques allows for great precision power and speed of the technique's execution, without great dedication to training all techniques no matter how good they are would be completely useless.

the biography you shared about entering the navy and losing to a boxer dedicated to his training was very Interesting to read, it shows that without great diligence and effort in training and improving your techniques, all of it would go to waste in moments that you need it the most.  =)


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## Denoaikido (Dec 7, 2018)

I would have to agree currently I train aikido 3 to 5 times a week and bujinkan a few times a week too I have  been thinking of adding back some heavier based  striking art im thinking some form of Japanese karate to further my over all budo.Now  like i said up top every art can offer something good to further your journey and every art is also lacking things if one does not realize that I'd say they maybe to one minded and might need to expand their horizons just a bit and test there selves ion other arts just my opinion!


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## Ascendingsoul (Dec 7, 2018)

Denoaikido said:


> I would have to agree currently I train aikido 3 to 5 times a week and bujinkan a few times a week too I have  been thinking of adding back some heavier based  striking art im thinking some form of Japanese karate to further my over all budo.Now  like i said up top every art can offer something good to further your journey and every art is also lacking things if one does not realize that I'd say they maybe to one minded and might need to expand their horizons just a bit and test there selves ion other arts just my opinion!


 I agree with everything you have said, not one art provides everything you need, learning through a variety of martial art disciplines is essential to improving as a martial artist, because you will acquire many techniques and skills that you would have otherwise never learned if you stick to only 1 art, being open to learning new things is essential to improving as a martial artist. =)


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## amateur (Dec 10, 2018)

I think the most important thing in creating a custom martial art is to realize that not all moves are
for everyone. 

I, for example, do not practice blade kicks (awful for my inner thighs) or  crescent kicks (fastest 
way to gain knee pain).

Also, I eventually discarded side kicks in push kicks' favor. This is just a personal judgement.
Side kicks are more powerful but also more telegraphed and I deduced that push kicks offer
a better power/speed balance.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 11, 2018)

Yes very true i have been noticing this alot more now that I am in aikido and working with so many different body sizes  im 6 ft 4in 215lbs right now . I noticed some advantages in aikido for being the tall guy and some very big dis advantages as the art was made by a much smaller man then me or most American's period so that being said,I am pleased  there are some moves that really work for me because of my hight and reach advantages as well,I love aikido i am learning from a guy here that trained with one of <Osensei's>direct students sensei sugawara  and he even comes here from japan and teaches its a honor to be so close to the original art form.


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## Martial D (Dec 11, 2018)

Ascendingsoul said:


> I agree with everything you have said, not one art provides everything you need


Unless you consider MMA to be its own style(and I do)


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## Denoaikido (Dec 11, 2018)

That is fair enough but even mma depending who teaches it might leave out some desired things and cant cover every art but sure is the closest thing if taught right.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 12, 2018)

Denoaikido said:


> That is fair enough but even mma depending who teaches it might leave out some desired things and cant cover every art but sure is the closest thing if taught right.


There are many systems/arts that include grappling and striking. Some instructors leave parts out, some add other parts in. And some systems are specialized (and some instructors further specialize within them). Whether a style has everything a student needs depends on the student's goals.


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## Denoaikido (Dec 12, 2018)

I totally agree there ^^^^^^^


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## Buka (Dec 12, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Unless you consider MMA to be its own style(and I do)



I do as well. Darn good one, too.


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## Denise A Daniel (May 29, 2019)

I am searching for a book showing the chung do kwan tae kwan do katas from the first to the last one.  Is there such a book out there and where can I find it?  Thanks everyone.  I was in Chung Do Kwan for about 10 years, broke a metatarsal - my fault - that took six months to heal and personal circumstances took me away from my beloved teacher and friends.  My friend and I, 67 and 72 years old now want to relearn our katas and are having trouble finding a book to carry us through.  She's 2nd degree black and I am brown or red in some schools. Any help will be appreciated!  Thanks again!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 29, 2019)

Denise A Daniel said:


> I am searching for a book showing the chung do kwan tae kwan do katas from the first to the last one.  Is there such a book out there and where can I find it?  Thanks everyone.  I was in Chung Do Kwan for about 10 years, broke a metatarsal - my fault - that took six months to heal and personal circumstances took me away from my beloved teacher and friends.  My friend and I, 67 and 72 years old now want to relearn our katas and are having trouble finding a book to carry us through.  She's 2nd degree black and I am brown or red in some schools. Any help will be appreciated!  Thanks again!


I would recommend starting your own post asking for it. The people who might know, might not look in this thread since the thread isnt related to TKD, if you start one with the title chung do kwan tkd or something similar it might help


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## Denise A Daniel (May 29, 2019)

Thank you for such a quick response.  I found a book on amazon with the ITF katas from white to the last black belt kata.  All 24. Pictures, diagrams, info on who it was named for, etc.  Thanks again!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 29, 2019)

Denise A Daniel said:


> Thank you for such a quick response.  I found a book on amazon with the ITF katas from white to the last black belt kata.  All 24. Pictures, diagrams, info on who it was named for, etc.  Thanks again!


I'm glad you found what you were looking for. I hope you'll hang around and post. There's a pretty active group of TKD folks here for you to interact with.


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## dvcochran (May 29, 2019)

Denise A Daniel said:


> I am searching for a book showing the chung do kwan tae kwan do katas from the first to the last one.  Is there such a book out there and where can I find it?  Thanks everyone.  I was in Chung Do Kwan for about 10 years, broke a metatarsal - my fault - that took six months to heal and personal circumstances took me away from my beloved teacher and friends.  My friend and I, 67 and 72 years old now want to relearn our katas and are having trouble finding a book to carry us through.  She's 2nd degree black and I am brown or red in some schools. Any help will be appreciated!  Thanks again!


It is great to hear about you and your friend. It should be great exercise for the both of you. 
I saw several YouTube channels with CDK forms which may be easier to learn from. While looking for books I saw that there were different versions of forms from various books so that may be a problem for you. Amazon had a few books.


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## Buka (May 30, 2019)

Denise A Daniel said:


> Thank you for such a quick response.  I found a book on amazon with the ITF katas from white to the last black belt kata.  All 24. Pictures, diagrams, info on who it was named for, etc.  Thanks again!



Welcome to Martial Talk, Denise. Nice to have you.


----------



## JP3 (Jun 1, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Unless you consider MMA to be its own style(and I do)


OK, the rest of this thread, which started out mistitled in my opinion, has been sort of going in circles, but the above caught my attention.

So, "MMA is its own style?"  Just curious, how did you get to that concept?

My own thought is that MMA is more descriptive of the act of combining other styles, since the styles that make up one MMA fighter's … catalogue if you will, don't necessarily have to match with another's, i.e. a longtime judoka can start doing a lot of Muay Thai and cover one's gaps witht he other's training regimen... and that person's actual, mat-level appearance of style won't match a guy/gal who came up in sport TKD, figured out they'd better protect their head and got heavy into western boxing and trained in Sambo for their grappling art.

Is my question making sense?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2019)

JP3 said:


> OK, the rest of this thread, which started out mistitled in my opinion, has been sort of going in circles, but the above caught my attention.
> 
> So, "MMA is its own style?"  Just curious, how did you get to that concept?
> 
> ...


I think both views have merit. 

There are places now that teach "MMA", rather than teaching the separate arts. They often split it into "standing/striking" and "ground work", rather than (for instance) Muay Thai and BJJ. All the ones I've seen appear to have similar mixes - all the usual suspects (CCW, Judo, BJJ, MT, western boxing, etc.). We could call MMA in this case, actually, an art, with several similar styles within it, based on which arts the standing and ground work were taken from.

But then there's also a complement of MMA gyms that still teach the underlying arts more completely, as well as those folks who train in a single art, then (usually) supplement to fill gaps so they can compete in MMA.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2019)

Doesn't the name "Mixed Martial Arts" say it all?


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## JP3 (Jun 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think both views have merit.
> 
> There are places now that teach "MMA", rather than teaching the separate arts. They often split it into "standing/striking" and "ground work", rather than (for instance) Muay Thai and BJJ. All the ones I've seen appear to have similar mixes - all the usual suspects (CCW, Judo, BJJ, MT, western boxing, etc.). We could call MMA in this case, actually, an art, with several similar styles within it, based on which arts the standing and ground work were taken from.
> 
> But then there's also a complement of MMA gyms that still teach the underlying arts more completely, as well as those folks who train in a single art, then (usually) supplement to fill gaps so they can compete in MMA.


Right, and I agree with that. But, does the simple act of combining techniques into a curriculum reach the...hmm... threshold for lack of a better term, for "creating a style?"

Right when I was getting Wasabi going, putting in the sprung floor, etc., I was training at what I'd call a "MMA gym."  I'd call it that as I've had some time spent in both boxing "gyms" and Muay Thai "gyms."  Same exact feel to them.  Was there training, absolutely. Was there teaching, certainly.  Was there a "style" I could identify, not really.

Well, unless you look at each fighter training in there, including me, as representing their own style.  If you did that, you'd have maybe 20-30 different "styles," as each guy did things a bit differently. I was probably the only guy in there (shoot, I was probably the only guy in Texas) using a jab-cross-hook, footsweep to leg kick combo... but I bet you that most of the guys in there had those tools in the bag. They just didn't see the efficacy, or have the skillset yet, to use them. I did, so I did.  My arms are Gibbon-long, so it's hard for me to generate punching power, but I can pull a cow out of a ditch, so despite the frame I go in for clinches instead of staying outside. That seems backwards of traditional thought, but it's typically worked for me unless I get partnered-up with someone along Mike Tyson's body and fighting style.  But, I digress...

It's the "is its own style" that makes me confused, I guess.  Can Martial D, for instance, call it what he wants? Of course he can and he's as right as I am, no worries. It is just weird to me that we can take, let's say 3 random styles, each of which operate to fill gaps in what the others lack, jam them together into an individual operator's toolbox, and then Wham-O, his new style is called MMA, which is the same thing we call another guy who used three completely different arts/styles, whatever.


This is going to sound cookie jar on the bottom shelf simple, but is it the mere act of combining arts to cover flaws/gaps what makes what we now call MMA its own style? Maybe that's it.


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## dvcochran (Jun 1, 2019)

Pull a cow out of a ditch; I Love that saying!


----------



## Martial D (Jun 1, 2019)

JP3 said:


> OK, the rest of this thread, which started out mistitled in my opinion, has been sort of going in circles, but the above caught my attention.
> 
> So, "MMA is its own style?"  Just curious, how did you get to that concept?
> 
> ...



MMA "boxing" is quite different than boxing

MMA grappling is much different than wrestling or bjj.

MMA movement is quite different from any other style.

Not to mention every 'traditional' style has roots in other styles just as MMA does.

So if every aspect is different from other styles, in addition to my last point, why would you think it wasn't a district style?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 1, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Right, and I agree with that. But, does the simple act of combining techniques into a curriculum reach the...hmm... threshold for lack of a better term, for "creating a style?"
> 
> Right when I was getting Wasabi going, putting in the sprung floor, etc., I was training at what I'd call a "MMA gym."  I'd call it that as I've had some time spent in both boxing "gyms" and Muay Thai "gyms."  Same exact feel to them.  Was there training, absolutely. Was there teaching, certainly.  Was there a "style" I could identify, not really.
> 
> ...


I think it’s as iffy as anything we discuss about delineating between styles and arts. Just how different is Shojin-ryu from mainline NGA? How different is NGA from a simplified Daito-ryu, or Yoshinkan Aikido?


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## JP3 (Jun 2, 2019)

Martial D said:


> MMA "boxing" is quite different than boxing
> 
> MMA grappling is much different than wrestling or bjj.
> 
> ...


Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point.  In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing?  The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches.  Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.


I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point.  And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.

I have problem with seeing it as its own "distinct" thing, as the only thing that is distinct and... maybe as you pointed out, separable, is the mixing-up of other techniques into a cohesive whole.


Jumping off of what Gerry wrote above.... this type of nomenclature war makes my head hurt because I can't understand it.  And understand, in no way is this a comment on the efficacy or lack thereof of MMA.  MMA works. Use your strength against the others weakness, basic tactics made into a system. It works and I like it. Names & labels are a problem.  Does it truly make a huge difference if Bill Bigfist calls himself a MMA-ist or it's intrinsic in his history? To me it doesn't, but I'm not Bill Bigfist either.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 2, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point.  In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing?  The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches.  Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point.  And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.
> ...


I actually think you hit on what I was getting at in your 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Calling it "MMA" is a useful shorthand, which is all I really see most names as - they give us a little bit of information in as few syllables as possible. And as long as whatever name is being used works, it makes sense to use it. And that's how I kinda view any question about whether something is a separate "thing" or not in MA: does using the name for it as a separate thing tell us some useful information?


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## JP3 (Jun 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I actually think you hit on what I was getting at in your 2nd and 4th paragraphs. Calling it "MMA" is a useful shorthand, which is all I really see most names as - they give us a little bit of information in as few syllables as possible. And as long as whatever name is being used works, it makes sense to use it. And that's how I kinda view any question about whether something is a separate "thing" or not in MA: does using the name for it as a separate thing tell us some useful information?


I don't think I've ever used the "Useful" button before, but that one qualifies.

We could look at this way, does the name/label MMA serve a purpose, of course. Does it serve Its purpose of being a descriptive name/label so as to let someone know what it is you're talking about in as little time as possible, it does that, too.

Martial D & I may disagree conceptually on the use of the word "distinct," but I can understand how MMA could be viewed as different, just because the rules structure (if you're using rules) is so wide-open as compared with other types of contact/combat competition things.

Boxing is boxing... or is it? Is the manner and method of boxing going to change if/when you change the rules to include *GASP* that the other guy can, if he can, kick you in the face while you're doing your best to pound his with your hand? We can all agree I think that hand-boxing an opponent is a different experience than boxing someone and both peeps can use their feet, too in one way or another.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jun 3, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point.  In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing?  The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches.  Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point.  And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.
> ...


I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.

In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.

Same with MMA grappling, it will differ from normal wrestling/grappling as when clinched up the opponent can now potentially knee you in the face, or throw an uppercut! So you'll change how you clinch up to keep that into account.

Groundwork now has the element of being cautious of being pounded too, so you have to train for keeping them closer to you whilst they're on top.

Just some thoughts!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.
> 
> In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.
> 
> ...


And that often changes the strategy, entirely. Ground grappling (really, all grappling) can be very patient when there are no strikes. You can get a small amount of control and work slowly to the next control point until you get the throw/takedown/submission you want. Put strikes in there, and some transitions get faster, and you have to spend more attention on defense at certain points, rather than just on moving to the next control.


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## Martial D (Jun 3, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Just tossing out there that "MMA _______ is quite different from ______" unsupported doesn't help me to understand your point.  In your mind, How is MMA boxing different from regular, Western boxing?  The MMA "boxing coaches" used to be just regular, old, western boxing coaches.  Same thing for MMA grappling vs., say, BJJ grappling. Shoot, the techniques are direct quotes most of the time.
> 
> 
> I agree with what you said about how most arts/styles are amalgams or combinations of other styles, I get that and it's a good point.  And I also get that it's way easier to call what the typical MMA practitioner does by the acronym MMA, rather than coming up with something that attempts to explain it all, jukafuyingshudojutsuwa or whatever.
> ...


You say you can't tell the difference between boxing and MMA boxing.

I really can't tell the difference between karate and tkd.

Does that make them  the same thing, or does that mean I haven't trained in the two enough to know?


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## JP3 (Jun 3, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> I think what Martial D might be alluding to (and I may be wrong and don't wanna speak for him or assume!), is that MMA boxing etc is different from the stand-alone art because you have different things to worry about and take into account.
> 
> In boxing, you've got in mind that the opponent is trying to punch you. In MMA boxing, you're super aware that not only that, but that he can kick you, or try a single-leg takedown, so you're considering how to position yourself to avoid or counter that, and your footwork, movement, range and body posture/positioning is going to reflect that. So you've got more to consider, and your approach and what you're being taught will vary quite a bit.
> 
> ...


Well, now I know that what I write isn't understandable, because you said much better above what I was trying to say with this:  " Boxing is boxing... or is it? Is the manner and method of boxing going to change if/when you change the rules to include *GASP* that the other guy can, if he can, kick you in the face while you're doing your best to pound his with your hand? We can all agree I think that hand-boxing an opponent is a different experience than boxing someone and both peeps can use their feet, too in one way or another."

That's what I meant. Change the rules, it changes the game, even if the underlying techniques remain direct quotes of the previous method.  I totally agree witht hat, as will anyone who has done some cross-paradigm training/fighting/sparring.


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## JP3 (Jun 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> You say you can't tell the difference between boxing and MMA boxing.
> 
> I really can't tell the difference between karate and tkd.
> 
> Does that make them  the same thing, or does that mean I haven't trained in the two enough to know?


I see what you did there and while it was slick, it's still not answering my question.  I... think... Simon may have done that for you, though.

As another matter, as the training... blends" for lack of a better word, trying to tell the difference between on the fly karate technique and TKD techniques can get difficult because bodies only work in certain ways, and people after doing an action for thousands of reps naturally tend to get to the most efficient method of performing an action, i.e. round kicks start out looking different for a TKD vs. a Karate white belt...but after 20 years they mostly look the same.

Well, that is unless a grandmaster is standing around frowning at "the new way we've always done things."


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## Martial D (Jun 3, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I see what you did there and while it was slick, it's still not answering my question.  I... think... Simon may have done that for you, though.
> 
> As another matter, as the training... blends" for lack of a better word, trying to tell the difference between on the fly karate technique and TKD techniques can get difficult because bodies only work in certain ways, and people after doing an action for thousands of reps naturally tend to get to the most efficient method of performing an action, i.e. round kicks start out looking different for a TKD vs. a Karate white belt...but after 20 years they mostly look the same.
> 
> Well, that is unless a grandmaster is standing around frowning at "the new way we've always done things."


Yes, Simon pretty much nailed it. The activity is different, the ways to be successful are different, hence, the techniques too must be different.

MMA is a young martial art, so it retains a stronger connection to it's parent arts, but less and less so every day.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jun 3, 2019)

interesting and solid points many of you have said on MMA being is own breed 

but even so lacks weapons and real self defense applications

I like to teach my students all of it, to make them the best they can be


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## drop bear (Jun 3, 2019)

Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard. 

What style am I using?


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## JP3 (Jun 3, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yes, Simon pretty much nailed it. The activity is different, the ways to be successful are different, hence, the techniques too must be different.
> 
> MMA is a young martial art, so it retains a stronger connection to it's parent arts, but less and less so every day.


That logic presupposes a premis MD.  In logic terms you said 

"If B is equal to X, and C is equal to X, then A, also, must be equal to X."

It's not the same as saying: "If A then B, and if B then C, so therefore if A then C."


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## JR 137 (Jun 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> And that often changes the strategy, entirely. Ground grappling (really, all grappling) can be very patient when there are no strikes. You can get a small amount of control and work slowly to the next control point until you get the throw/takedown/submission you want. Put strikes in there, and some transitions get faster, and you have to spend more attention on defense at certain points, rather than just on moving to the next control.


Add a clock, and things typically get sped up too. Think 3 two minute periods in wrestling. No time to hang out, unless of course you’re totally outclassing your opponent.

Why is watching the Kentucky Derby so intense? It’s short. Perhaps the shortest sport there is. Why is watching golf so laidback? Time. Everyone teeing off at the same time to a starter’s pistol going for the same hole the quickest would change things up quite a bit.


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## Martial D (Jun 3, 2019)

JP3 said:


> That logic presupposes a premis MD.  In logic terms you said
> 
> "If B is equal to X, and C is equal to X, then A, also, must be equal to X."
> 
> It's not the same as saying: "If A then B, and if B then C, so therefore if A then C."


Now you are just being pedantic. Go train MMA, THEN form an educated opinion.

Logical enough?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 3, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard.
> 
> What style am I using?


Brazillian Thaijitsu.


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## drop bear (Jun 3, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Brazillian Thaijitsu.



Brazilian Ihitsyou.


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## _Simon_ (Jun 4, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Ok. Let's try this. In MMA I will hit you in order to pass your guard.
> 
> What style am I using?


The BEST style!!!

Yes! I win!!!


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## JP3 (Jun 4, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Now you are just being pedantic. Go train MMA, THEN form an educated opinion.
> 
> Logical enough?


Now that was just you not paying attention. I have trained MMA, and I hold to my opinion. Taught the judo/groundwork at two while I trained there.


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## Martial D (Jun 4, 2019)

JP3 said:


> Now that was just you not paying attention. I have trained MMA, and I hold to my opinion. Taught the judo/groundwork at two while I trained there.


That makes it even more confounding that you keep to this position without offering any sort of reasoning or argument as to why.

It seems like you are angling towards 'not a style unless Asian dancing', which is a silly position imo. Maybe I'm wrong.


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## Buka (Jun 4, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> interesting and solid points many of you have said on MMA being is own breed
> 
> but even so lacks weapons and real self defense applications
> 
> I like to teach my students all of it, to make them the best they can be



I disagree in part. Although there are no weapons to MMA, in my opinion a person trained in MMA is far better prepared for self defense that most other Arts.


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## JP3 (Jun 4, 2019)

Martial D said:


> That makes it even more confounding that you keep to this position without offering any sort of reasoning or argument as to why.
> 
> It seems like you are angling towards 'not a style unless Asian dancing', which is a silly position imo. Maybe I'm wrong.


I'll go with you're wrong, that works for me. Ha! Too easy.


Even if you are right, it makes no true difference. I am most likely not to change my mind, because my opinion has been created by my experience. Likewise, you... yours.

Asian Dancing... reminds me of the joke. Judo is like dancing except the partners knock each other down.

If you want to think of MMA as being it's own unique animal, different from everything else ever created, go for it. I don't agree with you, and you're not going to agree with me.  Having trained in MMA gyms, and taught in MMA gyms, I found that, to effectively teach, I had to use teaching tools of breaking down individual movements of techniques, whether that's how to throw an effective jab, work a punch combo, go from a strike exchange into a clinch then to a takedown and transition into groundwork, whatever it was... it all broke down into individual, small components. Those components all, for me, arose out of the underlying training in the various arts I'd practiced over the years. That's how I taught, and it seemed to be effective - the guys/gals got the lesson and went on to effectively use the things I'd taught in practice, matches, and ring fights.


But, for someone who didn't ever come up in any sort of traditional program, I can see how it easily could be different.  Maybe it's the weight of 40-odd years of doing it the "old way" that's coloring my perception.

You do you how you want to do you.  I'll remain me. We're not likely to change each others opinions on something so elusive, and illusory, as nomenclature.


But, if ya wanna arm wrestle...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 4, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> The BEST style!!!
> 
> Yes! I win!!!


Only if you succeed. Otherwise your style is crap, and you cannot prove me otherwise.


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## Martial D (Jun 4, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I'll go with you're wrong, that works for me. Ha! Too easy.
> 
> 
> Even if you are right, it makes no true difference. I am most likely not to change my mind, because my opinion has been created by my experience. Likewise, you... yours.
> ...



Ok then, I have a challenge for you then, old man.

Define what a style is, and why. I look forward to watching you trip all over your own feet trying to carefully exclude MMA.

Go.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ok then, I have a challenge for you then, old man.
> 
> Define what a style is, and why. I look forward to watching you trip all over your own feet trying to carefully exclude MMA.
> 
> Go.


That's a problem either looking to include it or looking to exclude it. It's also a problem for most styles.


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## Martial D (Jun 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a problem either looking to include it or looking to exclude it. It's also a problem for most styles.


Ya, I'm really just trying to pin him down on his reasoning. So far all he has offered is that it contains elements of other martial arts..which if to be used as the distinguishing factor in something not being a style, also excludes almost every known style.

Guess Wing Chun isn't a style either. It's just guys doing snake style and crane style together.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jun 5, 2019)

@Buka im speaking nothing of their raw fighting ability but i do not believe that it makes them inherently better at self defense and in some ways makes them worse

a few examples

MMA fighters are well...trained to fight, whereas situational avoidance and verbal self defense can end a fight before it begins
their fighting abilities are tailored to one on one in the ring not one one three in a cement parking lot filled with cars at night (all elements that change tactic needing to be used)
they train to be in top performance and take a licking but a knife or gun doesnt care how many punches you can take


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> @Buka im speaking nothing of their raw fighting ability but i do not believe that it makes them inherently better at self defense and in some ways makes them worse
> 
> a few examples
> 
> ...


I don't think most of those things make as big a difference as skill level. In general, I'd put money on the best-trained fighter if things get physical, regardless of the environment.


----------



## Christopher Adamchek (Jun 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think most of those things make as big a difference as skill level. In general, I'd put money on the best-trained fighter if things get physical, regardless of the environment.



Absolutely not, thinking about and moderate training in environment, multiple attackers, and weapons can out weigh lots of skill and training for ring / sport fighting

especially when a blade is pulled


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Absolutely not, thinking about and moderate training in environment, multiple attackers, and weapons can out weigh lots of skill and training for ring / sport fighting
> 
> especially when a blade is pulled


If you think you're genuinely prepared to deal with multiple attackers and weapons, without a lot of experience dealing with them (in reality, not the dojo), you're fooling yourself.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> Absolutely not, thinking about and moderate training in environment, multiple attackers, and weapons can out weigh lots of skill and training for ring / sport fighting
> 
> especially when a blade is pulled


I think most folks who train in self-defense circles (and that's my circle) give too much emphasis to the effect their training has on weapon defense. If you gave me a skilled MMA fighter, I can make him a better defender against a weapon than someone who isn't as skilled. Give me the average MA student, and even with knife defense training, I think they're less prepared than a skilled (let's say an amateur who wins more than they lose) MMA fighter. The effect is even more pronounced for multiple attackers. Fighting skill matters a lot.

Mind you, I'm not saying context training, training for multiples, and training weapon defense doesn't matter. I'm saying the importance is easy to overstate. MMA training - even if it's heavily focused on competition - could easily be adapted to include the key principles of all three. I give the edge to the person who trains harder, more realistically, and with more emphasis on failure points. Most training for MMA is good fight training (I'm assuming there's some sloppy stuff out there calling itself "MMA"), and translates well to defensive use.


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2019)

One of the things I laugh about when I am getting mauled in sparring.

 If I was doing Krav I would be knocking over a room full of guys with weapons by now.

Rather than struggling to deal with one guy.

And of course we do multiple sparring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

drop bear said:


> One of the things I laugh about when I am getting mauled in sparring.
> 
> If I was doing Krav I would be knocking over a room full of guys with weapons by now.
> 
> ...


Then you're not doing real MMA training, obviously.


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Then you're not doing real MMA training, obviously.



We train for the ring.

A little ring we like to call the world.


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## JP3 (Jun 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ok then, I have a challenge for you then, old man.
> 
> Define what a style is, and why. I look forward to watching you trip all over your own feet trying to carefully exclude MMA.
> 
> Go.


----------



## JP3 (Jun 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ok then, I have a challenge for you then, old man.
> 
> Define what a style is, and why. I look forward to watching you trip all over your own feet trying to carefully exclude MMA.
> 
> Go.


First thing, I don't trip.  I can fall rather awesomely, but no tripping.  You're not paying attention, either.  I don't need to exclude anything from anything else.

Here's  a quick def of "style" it took 2 seconds to find:


"Any of several arts of combat and self-defense (such as karate and judo) that are widely practiced as sport."

From:  https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...artial%20art&usg=AOvVaw2Wa0l7VkY6Kg4oNh1jIkDw

Still doesn't change my opinion.  For Me, MMA is a collection of styles into a system unique to the person. Simple enough. I can even use the above dictionary definition, though I didn't know Webster was up to providing definitions of phrases now, which I think is cool.  Yes, I realize that you can use it as well, so we're back to the same issue of nomenclature.


Why are you wasting your training time on this?Is it so important to your world-view? You're not going to change my opinion, and I'm not going to change yours, and neither of our opinions has any effect upon the other.


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## JP3 (Jun 5, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> That's a problem either looking to include it or looking to exclude it. It's also a problem for most styles.


Like what I've got going here with Martial D, it's one of those things that can easily go either way, is highly-dependent on perspective... and in the end really makes no real difference except for one's own personal understanding.


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## JP3 (Jun 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ya, I'm really just trying to pin him down on his reasoning. So far all he has offered is that it contains elements of other martial arts..which if to be used as the distinguishing factor in something not being a style, also excludes almost every known style.
> 
> Guess Wing Chun isn't a style either. It's just guys doing snake style and crane style together.


For everyone, I apologize my system seems to be trying to double-post almost every time I reply for some reason. Sorry about that, I'm trying to figure out why.


Wing Chun has been around a long, long time. I agree with you, it's ridiculous to give credence to something only because it's been around a long time... but we humans do that All The Time.  I'd say, and will probably offend WC folks, in my personal viepoint, their art is the MMA of CMA, if everyone will pardon the acronyms.

So, you pin me down, to which I gave in... and we are Still stuck on the same point. Opinions differ. You know the saying about opinions.

isn't a style either. It's just guys doing snake style and crane style


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

drop bear said:


> We train for the ring.
> 
> A little ring we like to call the world.


That sounds like something Brian would say on Family Guy.


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2019)

JP3 said:


> For everyone, I apologize my system seems to be trying to double-post almost every time I reply for some reason. Sorry about that, I'm trying to figure out why.
> 
> 
> Wing Chun has been around a long, long time. I agree with you, it's ridiculous to give credence to something only because it's been around a long time... but we humans do that All The Time.  I'd say, and will probably offend WC folks, in my personal viepoint, their art is the MMA of CMA, if everyone will pardon the acronyms.
> ...



I am lost. It is like saying a table doesn't exist. There are MMA gyms that do MMA.

I am not sure how opinion really factors in.

So picked at random. 





The style doesn't exist?

The gym doesn't exist?

I am not sure what there is to opinion on?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I am lost. It is like saying a table doesn't exist. There are MMA gyms that do MMA.
> 
> I am not sure how opinion really factors in.
> 
> ...


The debate is whether they're doing MMA (a completely separate thing) or a combination of things. It's a reasonable question that doesn't have a definitive answer. It's like asking whether I teach Shojin-ryu, or mainline NGA with some Judo/FMA/boxing/BJJ. I can argue both sides of that, because it doesn't really matter which we call it, so long as we all know what it is.

In the case of MMA, I think it gets more vague, because there are some places that do teach what I consider MMA (as a style), and others that specifically teach the component styles, plus how to use them together for MMA competition. So I'd argue sometimes it's a style, and sometimes it's just the competition the gym trains folks for.


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## Martial D (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The debate is whether they're doing MMA (a completely separate thing) or a combination of things. It's a reasonable question that doesn't have a definitive answer. It's like asking whether I teach Shojin-ryu, or mainline NGA with some Judo/FMA/boxing/BJJ. I can argue both sides of that, because it doesn't really matter which we call it, so long as we all know what it is.
> 
> In the case of MMA, I think it gets more vague, because there are some places that do teach what I consider MMA (as a style), and others that specifically teach the component styles, plus how to use them together for MMA competition. So I'd argue sometimes it's a style, and sometimes it's just the competition the gym trains folks for.


Yet if even one single gym in the world teaches it wholisticly, it's a style in that place, even by buddies own definition.

If it exists as a style in a place, it exists.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yet if even one single gym in the world teaches it wholisticly, it's a style in that place, even by buddies own definition.
> 
> If it exists as a style in a place, it exists.


True enough. My point was we could argue that's not "MMA, the style" but an amalgamation of other styles (just as we could with Shojin-ryu). It's somewhat a matter of perception, and not terribly important, either way. If someone said what I teach is just an amalgamation of NGA and some other stuff rather than a separate style, I'd be okay with that - it's a reasonable description. Of course, we could also argue that "an amalgamation of NGA and some other stuff" is just the definition of what the style Shojin-ryu is. We could do the same with MMA.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jun 6, 2019)

@gpseymour i think youre right that a typical MMA fighter could pick up other things quicker and use them more effectively but if they dont have those skills they can make simple easily made mistakes that can cost them dearly that some self defense programs address right away for beginner students.  Being a good fighter definitely gives them an edge but many self defense scenarios factor in more than fighting ability. 

And there are stories / articles of such things happening.


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## Martial D (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> True enough. My point was we could argue that's not "MMA, the style" but an amalgamation of other styles (just as we could with Shojin-ryu). It's somewhat a matter of perception, and not terribly important, either way. If someone said what I teach is just an amalgamation of NGA and some other stuff rather than a separate style, I'd be okay with that - it's a reasonable description. Of course, we could also argue that "an amalgamation of NGA and some other stuff" is just the definition of what the style Shojin-ryu is. We could do the same with MMA.


This is really a language issue. It could have been called just cage fighting,  or pit fighting, or something else. MMA stick. So people focus on the word mixed.

If another word for it would have settled on, this wouldn't even be a discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> @gpseymour i think youre right that a typical MMA fighter could pick up other things quicker and use them more effectively but if they dont have those skills they can make simple easily made mistakes that can cost them dearly that some self defense programs address right away for beginner students.  Being a good fighter definitely gives them an edge but many self defense scenarios factor in more than fighting ability.
> 
> And there are stories / articles of such things happening.


It's true. It's why folks who train for SD should spend a little time looking at what's different in those situations and contexts. My point was that overall skill level is more important, so an MMA person won't be inherently worse (the term you used) at self-defense. They'll possibly make some errors they wouldn't if they trained a little on those concepts, but they'll typically be significantly better off in all of those areas than the average person. And for overall self-defense, they can be better prepared than some folks who haven't trained well (but have covered those areas).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> This is really a language issue. It could have been called just cage fighting,  or pit fighting, or something else. MMA stick. So people focus on the word mixed.
> 
> If another word for it would have settled on, this wouldn't even be a discussion.


If we called it "cage fighting", we would probably not talk about it as a style, but as the competition event.

But then we talk about "boxing" as a specific style, so...


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> @gpseymour i think youre right that a typical MMA fighter could pick up other things quicker and use them more effectively but if they dont have those skills they can make simple easily made mistakes that can cost them dearly that some self defense programs address right away for beginner students.  Being a good fighter definitely gives them an edge but many self defense scenarios factor in more than fighting ability.
> 
> And there are stories / articles of such things happening.



Well so long as there are stories.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It's true. It's why folks who train for SD should spend a little time looking at what's different in those situations and contexts. My point was that overall skill level is more important, so an MMA person won't be inherently worse (the term you used) at self-defense. They'll possibly make some errors they wouldn't if they trained a little on those concepts, but they'll typically be significantly better off in all of those areas than the average person. And for overall self-defense, they can be better prepared than some folks who haven't trained well (but have covered those areas).



There are quite a few wild misconceptions that get used. 

Like for example MMA has less access to people who engaged in self defense than RBSD.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

My only issue with MMA as a style is that they stole the name from me. Now I have to find a word besides mixed martial arts or hybrid martial arts to use if I ever open up my own school.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> My only issue with MMA as a style is that they stole the name from me. Now I have to find a word besides mixed martial arts or hybrid martial arts to use if I ever open up my own school.



Unified fighting concepts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Unified fighting concepts.


Cool. Then i can cash in on the UFC entirely by accident


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## dvcochran (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The debate is whether they're doing MMA (a completely separate thing) or a combination of things. It's a reasonable question that doesn't have a definitive answer. It's like asking whether I teach Shojin-ryu, or mainline NGA with some Judo/FMA/boxing/BJJ. I can argue both sides of that, because it doesn't really matter which we call it, so long as we all know what it is.
> 
> In the case of MMA, I think it gets more vague, because there are some places that do teach what I consider MMA (as a style), and others that specifically teach the component styles, plus how to use them together for MMA competition. So I'd argue sometimes it's a style, and sometimes it's just the competition the gym trains folks for.


In that vein, the same can be said for some TKD gyms. Purely sport and nothing else.


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## Buka (Jun 6, 2019)

Christopher Adamchek said:


> @Buka im speaking nothing of their raw fighting ability but i do not believe that it makes them inherently better at self defense and in some ways makes them worse
> 
> a few examples
> 
> ...




I hear you, brother. But I think you're thinking of MMA gyms that train MMA fighters for competitions in MMA. I'm thinking more along the lines of MMA style fight training done in a martial arts schools as part of their regularly scheduled training. Before anyone says that doesn't exist, it does, especially over the last twenty five years.

One of the best things MMA training has going for it is the level of resistance they encounter and use every day. Every single day of their careers in the Arts. Not having any resistance in training can make for some scary realizations in the actual field when facing danger, especially life threatening danger. 

As for guns, which I loathe with a passion, I've been carrying one for a really long time, both in my career and in my private life. I think gun training in Martial Arts schools need a lot of help. Not from other Martial Artists or Arts, but from combat firearms instructors. Most don't usually seek out that avenue. Which is too bad, there's a lot of resources readily available, and quite easy to tap into.

I also believe that ninety five percent of knife training in dojos is not helpful, it's hurtful.


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## drop bear (Jun 6, 2019)

Buka said:


> One of the best things MMA training has going for it is the level of resistance they encounter and use every day. Every single day of their careers in the Arts. Not having any resistance in training can make for some scary realizations in the actual field when facing danger, especially life threatening danger.



It is the level of experimentation available.

So say you do wing chun there is nothing stopping you from doing wing chun in MMA. I have sparred for standing arm bars just to see if I can make restraints work. And where I will get smashed in the head. 

And that means you can find the elements that work and the ones that don't without having to rely on stories. 

And that is a super important base to work from.


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## JP3 (Jun 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> I also believe that ninety five percent of knife training in dojos is not helpful, it's hurtful.


I can get on board with that. I'm no expert with blades at all, but I do pay attention and my brain works most of the time.  A lot of what people have said in dojos/dojangs around North America where I've trained I've sort of stored up in my gray stuff, and cogitated upon it from time to time. Either I didn't understand the "how" of what it was they were saying to do, which is possible, or what they were doing didn't work at all and didn't make any sense.

At OKC's Windsong Dojo there are a couple retired ex-special forces guys, one of which grew up in Manila while his dad was working there, before he grew up and enlisted.  This guy knew knives and blade combat and has the scars you can see from it. It's nothing at all like what I was originally taught, what that guy does. Very arnis, but with the specops training and expertise on top of it. Scary dude. Nice guy, though. Very, very gentle judo player... one of those guys you can't really feel the kazushi he puts on you, but you go where he wants you to go.


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## Buka (Jun 11, 2019)

I think that anyone who spends a couple decades training in the Martial Arts creates their own custom Martial Art.


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