# Musso Bowie Knife



## KPM (Dec 30, 2018)




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## Polina (Dec 30, 2018)

Wow looks more machete than knife!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 30, 2018)

It may just be the angle, but it looks to me like the belly curve is long enough to bring the point above the centerline of the blade. If that is the case, I'd count that as a negative. The Bowie is a fighting knife. Fighting knives are used for thrusting (yes, cutting too, but the point is relevant to thrusting) and for that, the point should be in line with the center of the blade. 
Cutting is important, and it's messy, but one thing of which I can assure you is that thrusts are far, far more lethal.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It may just be the angle, but it looks to me like the belly curve is long enough to bring the point above the centerline of the blade. If that is the case, I'd count that as a negative. The Bowie is a fighting knife. Fighting knives are used for thrusting (yes, cutting too, but the point is relevant to thrusting) and for that, the point should be in line with the center of the blade.
> Cutting is important, and it's messy, but one thing of which I can assure you is that thrusts are far, far more lethal.



I have a mate who kills pigs with a boning knife. Which has that upraised tip. 

I am not sure if that is really going to stop the knife.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I have a mate who kills pigs with a boning knife. Which has that upraised tip.
> 
> I am not sure if that is really going to stop the knife.



Nice strawman you have there. I didn't say it would stop it. It will affect penetration, though.
Obviously, any knife can kill you. I've seen people killed with a 2" bladed swiss army knife. But as with any tool, a proper design will improve efficiency.


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> It may just be the angle, but it looks to me like the belly curve is long enough to bring the point above the centerline of the blade. If that is the case, I'd count that as a negative. The Bowie is a fighting knife. Fighting knives are used for thrusting (yes, cutting too, but the point is relevant to thrusting) and for that, the point should be in line with the center of the blade.
> Cutting is important, and it's messy, but one thing of which I can assure you is that thrusts are far, far more lethal.



A "straight on" thrust is not the only one utilized.  Thrusts will often come at an angle, where the off-centered point is an advantage.  And this is an exact reproduction of an historical knife.  Three other historical knives are known with the exact same design.   People "back in the day" would likely question your idea that an off-center point is a negative for a fighting knife.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2018)

KPM said:


> A "straight on" thrust is not the only one utilized.  Thrusts will often come at an angle, where the off-centered point is an advantage.  And this is an exact reproduction of an historical knife.  Three other historical knives are known with the exact same design.   People "back in the day" would likely question your idea that an off-center point is a negative for a fighting knife.



There is no advantage to having the tip out of line with the midline of the blade. No matter what the angle at which you're thrusting, the power is greatest straight along the midline. Both physics and physiology require it. An off center point is fine for slashing. Not for thrusting. That is one reason why there are no examples of a pure thrusting weapon, such as a smallsword or stiletto, with a curve.


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## CB Jones (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no advantage to having the tip out of line with the midline of the blade. No matter what the angle at which you're thrusting, the power is greatest straight along the midline. Both physics and physiology require it. An off center point is fine for slashing. Not for thrusting. That is one reason why there are no examples of a pure thrusting weapon, such as a smallsword or stiletto, with a curve.



I think its just the angle you looked at it.   In the video, it looks like the tip lines up with the mid line


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## Flying Crane (Dec 31, 2018)

I’ve not tested this theory, but just for a brain exercise it seems to me that a stab done with a horizontal-ish hook punch movement, say to the side or kidneys, could find a raised point useful.  Depends on the actual angle in which it comes in.  But perhaps.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Nice strawman you have there. I didn't say it would stop it. It will affect penetration, though.
> Obviously, any knife can kill you. I've seen people killed with a 2" bladed swiss army knife. But as with any tool, a proper design will improve efficiency.



Not to any real degree according to this guy. 

The method is to stab the pig in the heart.


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve not tested this theory, but just for a brain exercise it seems to me that a stab done with a horizontal-ish hook punch movement, say to the side or kidneys, could find a raised point useful.  Depends on the actual angle in which it comes in.  But perhaps.



That is exactly right Michael!  And I thought that would be clear from the video I provided.


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## KPM (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no advantage to having the tip out of line with the midline of the blade. No matter what the angle at which you're thrusting, the power is greatest straight along the midline. Both physics and physiology require it. An off center point is fine for slashing. Not for thrusting. That is one reason why there are no examples of a pure thrusting weapon, such as a smallsword or stiletto, with a curve.



When doing a thrust from a 1 o'clock or 11 o'clock angle (or really any angle other than a "straight on" thrust like a fencer), the hand and blade are turned at an angle.  This puts on off-center point in a leading position and makes the thrust easier.   There is most certainly is an advantage to having the tip a bit off of the mid-line for this type of thrusting because the thrust is coming in on a circular line and not a straight line.  And a "pure" thrusting weapon like a smallsword is used almost exclusively for that "straight on" linear thrust.  Not the angled thrusts I am talking about.


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## lklawson (Dec 31, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> There is no advantage to having the tip out of line with the midline of the blade. No matter what the angle at which you're thrusting, the power is greatest straight along the midline. Both physics and physiology require it. An off center point is fine for slashing. Not for thrusting. That is one reason why there are no examples of a pure thrusting weapon, such as a smallsword or stiletto, with a curve.


There are plenty of fighting knives that are belly/curve heavy. Not all fighting knives are intended to thurst well.

That said, I like my Bowies to be able to thurst well.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## lklawson (Dec 31, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve not tested this theory, but just for a brain exercise it seems to me that a stab done with a horizontal-ish hook punch movement, say to the side or kidneys, could find a raised point useful.  Depends on the actual angle in which it comes in.  But perhaps.


A mandriti or a reversi would be okay like this but it tends to pull the target toward you.

Peace favor your sword (mobile)


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2018)

lklawson said:


> There are plenty of fighting knives that are belly/curve heavy. Not all fighting knives are intended to thurst well.
> 
> That said, I like my Bowies to be able to thurst well.
> 
> Peace favor your sword (mobile)



Sure, but those designs are intended for slashing and cutting.
As far as a Bowie goes, I suspect the high tip is because they really were not fighting knives. They were multi-purpose knifes. The big curved belly is certainly an advantage when cutting, slashing or chopping.


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## KPM (Jan 1, 2019)

Tip just a bit off of mid-line, and this was intended as a pure fighting knife!

Bagwell Bowie - Hell's Belle


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## KPM (Jan 1, 2019)

Another one with an off-center tip.  This was based on the 1917 Cutlass.  I think they had more in mind than designing a "multi-purpose" knife! 

Cold Steel 1917 Frontier Bowie, CS-88CSAB


From the Cold Steel website: Almost sword-like in its cutting and thrusting performance, the Frontier Bowie features a wide, wickedly keen hand-sharpened blade with a generous clip and huge fuller. Made from 1085 Carbon Steel, it is heat treated to a hard spring temper and beautifully blued to a lustrous finish. Its blade is both long and stiff enough to oppose even much larger weapons, while wide and sharp enough to make the most of every opportunity to cut, thrust and deliver a "palpable hit".

The Frontier Bowies handle is a perfect accompaniment to its battle-ready blade. Its big "S" shaped guard offers excellent hand protection while the slim, flat profile stops it from twisting in your hand and keeps your edge alignment true even in the heat of combat. Its modified pistol grip also keeps the knife locked safely in your hand even when utilizing a palm reinforced grip for extended reach and leverage in the thrust.


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## lklawson (Jan 2, 2019)

KPM said:


> Tip just a bit off of mid-line, and this was intended as a pure fighting knife!
> 
> Bagwell Bowie - Hell's Belle


I have the Fortress.  
Ontario Bagwell Bowie The Fortress Fixed 10.375 inch Satin Blade, Wood Handles, Leather Sheath

I like the way it handles for thrusting.  It cuts/slashes OK, but the weight of it, and the spine, makes it "want" to thrust more than cut.

I've got other which "want" to cut more than thrust.  I also have a few that seem to do both fairly well.  One or two of them are Windlass/Atlanta Cutlery.  But they often have fitment issues.  Not enough to make them non-functional, but enough to be noticeable.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Jan 2, 2019)

KPM said:


> Another one with an off-center tip.  This was based on the 1917 Cutlass.  I think they had more in mind than designing a "multi-purpose" knife!
> 
> Cold Steel 1917 Frontier Bowie, CS-88CSAB
> 
> ...


I really love the way this one looks.  I've done Rust Bluing before so the finish definitely appeals to me.  The quillions are pretty much exactly what I want in a "fighting bowie" but the handle itself makes me wonder just a little bit.  I like the simplified bird's-head for retention but the rest of it looks just a bit too slick and lacking a gripping contour.  It's just not been quite enough to convince me to pop a C-note on it.

I've also been looking for a repop of the original Teddy Roosevel Rough Riders bowie.  I see a couple that claim to be or that are branded "rough riders" but I haven't been able to track down what seems to be a photo of a genuine original to compare against.  I was hopeful when I went through the Smithsonian Museum of American History (they had a lot of examples of swords and knives) but no joy.  Same with some of the other museums I've gone through.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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