# Weapon questions



## donald1 (Aug 21, 2014)

I got 4 questions 
1.  Which Is better for long for hard hits,  durable,  also I prefer heavier bo over light,  which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different 
2. Ash wood,  I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it.  Is it good?  Just curious on that question 
3.  I'm sure I might have asked this but what are some easy ways to know if a sword is good or a piece of junk ( i like weapons but if I'm going to put money in i want it good enough to spare 
4.  What's more important stance or good control of the weapon)  i wanna say weapon but could be stance 
Cause if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you 
Yet if you're stance is important cause without good stance you could get knocked off your feet or get hit by an attack that could have been avoided or countered


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## Grenadier (Aug 22, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I got 4 questions
> 1.  Which Is better for long for hard hits,  durable,  also I prefer heavier bo over light,  which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different



For the first part:

How hard you can hit using a bo is actually more dependent on using a good set of mechanics, where the entire body is utilized to generate the power, and not just trying to use only arm muscles.  I've seen a most amazing fellow (Shihan Toshihiro Oshiro) in his 60's swing a medium weight bo with enough force that he can snap through someone else's bo.  At the same time, I've seen some very large individuals trying to swing as hard as they can using their arms as well as a heavy bo, and they end up generating a swing that is far weaker than what you'd expect.  

For the second part:

Purpleheart has the advantage of having a higher density, and will be a harder wood than hickory.  It will have a higher crush resistance.  

At the same time, though, hickory is more resilient and more flexible, while still be plenty tough enough.  While it may have a lower crush resistance, it's also going to be less likely to splinter due to its resilience.  

Either material is going to be just fine for a bo.  It all comes down to how much you're willing to spend, and what physical appearances you favor.  



> 2. Ash wood,  I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it.  Is it good?  Just curious on that question



Ash wood is a good bit lighter than hickory.  It's quite strong for being a lighter wood, and as long as you're not going to be doing a lot of bo on bo contact drills, it's a nice choice.  




> 4.  What's more important stance or good control of the weapon)  i wanna say weapon but could be stance



Stance and control are all part of your fundamental techniques / mechanics.  They are both important, of course, which is why it's very important to get good quality live instruction, so that you can start out with the proper set of mechanics, instead of having to go back, unlearn, and properly learn.  

Stance and movement is how you'll generate most of your power, where the lower body will provide you with the strength.  The upper body will be responsible for controlling the bo.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 24, 2014)

Hi Donald,

Grenadier has addressed some of this quite well, I'm going to come from a slightly different angle here.



donald1 said:


> I got 4 questions



Okay.



donald1 said:


> 1.  Which Is better for long for hard hits,  durable,  also I prefer heavier bo over light,  which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different


 
I'd suggest talking to your instructor in the weapon. Some systems will have a distinct preference (my systems state a preference towards Japanese oak, white in the main, sometimes red), others will be a little more lax on specific requirements. You say that you prefer a heavier bo over a light one? Once again, what does your system say&#8230; I have a student that is focusing on Bo with me&#8230; he bought one without checking with me, and bought a fairly thick and heavy one&#8230; which simply didn't work with our system&#8230; he had to go out and buy a lighter, thinner one&#8230; 

That said, hickory has a fairly good following, as it's possibly the closest American hardwood equivalent to Japanese oak, and shares many similar traits. Purplewood is also quite good, but rarer, and can be a bit more expensive. But the main thing is to ask your instructor&#8230; and, if you don't have one, then I'd ask what you're doing with the weapon.



donald1 said:


> 2. Ash wood,  I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it.  Is it good?  Just curious on that question



See Grenadier's comment here&#8230; it can also be a bit more brittle if not treated properly, which is why he's saying it's not really for contact work.



donald1 said:


> 3.  I'm sure I might have asked this but what are some easy ways to know if a sword is good or a piece of junk ( i like weapons but if I'm going to put money in i want it good enough to spare



What are you using a sword for? Have you checked with your instructor? If not, do so&#8230; if you don't have one, to be frank, I'm rather reticent to give out advice to someone I don't know&#8230; they're dangerous items by design&#8230; add to that inexperience, and a lack of awareness and knowledge, and it's a recipe for injury. 

If you are actually training in an art that uses a sword, how is it used? Is it in Iai? Kumitachi? Tameshigiri? Each will have different preferences and requirements&#8230; simply listing fairly vague comments about "good" or "bad" things to look for can't really deal with such ideas, and can only give the impression of usable knowledge, while at the same time commonly doing little but confusing the matter and making people feel that the little they then hear is "the truth". It's not.



donald1 said:


> 4.  What's more important stance or good control of the weapon)  i wanna say weapon but could be stance
> Cause if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you
> Yet if you're stance is important cause without good stance you could get knocked off your feet or get hit by an attack that could have been avoided or countered



Yeah&#8230; again, talk to your instructor. Different arts will have different emphasis&#8230; and you might find that the two are very much the same thing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 24, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I prefer heavier bo over light, ...


I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.










donald1 said:


> if you can't keep a good control of the weapon it could be knocked out your hands or used against you ...


When you use a staff to fight someone who also has a staff, you should watch out when your staff contact with your opponent's staff, his staff may 

- slide along your staff, 
- hit on your hand, and
- force you to drop your staff.

This is the most common staff skill and it's called "hand striking staff".

IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit.  If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach. 

If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".


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## Chris Parker (Aug 24, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you use a staff to fight someone who also has a staff, you should watch out when your staff contact with your opponent's staff, his staff may



Staff versus staff isn't necessarily the common form in a number of systems. 



Kung Fu Wang said:


> - slide along your staff,
> - hit on your hand, and
> - force you to drop your staff.
> 
> This is the most common staff skill and it's called "hand striking staff".



It may well be called that by you, but it's hardly a universal name&#8230; nor is that "the most common staff skill". Once again, John, the way you do things is not necessarily the same as the way things are done in many, many other systems.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit.  If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach.
> 
> If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".



What you're describing is pretty standard for Ryukyu Kobudo (Okinawan systems), but is not the way it's done in Japanese systems, or largely in many Chinese systems&#8230; once again, the particular methodology is dependant on the system being trained itself. Simply giving what you think is "the best" approach, without understanding the congruence of culture and personal preference in individual systems, you're really missing much of how training in a martial art actually works.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 24, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.



Hmm, you added a bit...

As a strength training device, sure, good plan&#8230; as a staff&#8230; terrible, terrible plan. Just terrible.


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## donald1 (Aug 24, 2014)

F





Chris Parker said:


> Hi Donald,
> 
> Grenadier has addressed some of this quite well, I'm going to come from a slightly different angle here.
> 
> ...



Right now my main contact bo is a thicker oak,  he was saying either purple heart or hickory was acceptable 

Afcoarse,  when I practice kobudo i always takes training seriously.  The sword thing is for the most part a collection and most of them I do not have a form for most but usually techniques or take a i have practiced some forms that a sword could also be used in(mostly train with a wooden bokkun sword and a wooden jian for bogua circles (i don't use the metal swords much)  the most metal weapon i practice with is a liuyedao but that's only because I do have a form for it 
The reason for the question,  while I do have some inexperience i know after some time and training I will have the experience to train with a better sword and if I was already saving for one then money won't be a problem when the sword ends up being expensive


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## Grenadier (Aug 24, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I find the brass pipe can be used as a good staff. If you can seal both ends, you can fill in with other material to make it solid with you desire weight.



The problem with hollow metal, is that it will be susceptible to crushing.  Also, a material like brass is going to be a soft metal.  The only way to get around the flaws here, is to use a solid filler, and that's going to make it too heavy for practical use.  



> IMO, the best way to hold your staff is to divide your staff in 3 equal parts at point A and B. You then use one hand to hold on spot A, use another hand to hold on spot B. This way you can treat your staff as "2 heads staff" and you can use both ends to strike. When you have to block a heavy blow from your opponent's staff, you can let the center of your staff to touch on your belly and connect your body and your staff as one single unit.  If you let go one of your holds (either at A or B), you can swing your staff to the opposite side with 2/3 of the maximum reach.
> 
> If you hold your both hands toward one end, you can also use your staff as a spear. When you hold your staff this way, your staff is no longer a "double heads staff" but become a "single head staff".



Different systems will put a different emphasis on what is the ideal way to hold a bo.  

For example, Yamanni Ryu practitioners strike with the long end of the bo, in order to maximize power, but will quickly slide the bo along the hand to block with the shorter end, to maximize control, maximizing the use of leverage in both cases.  Since the hands never leave the bo (changing hands is done by flipping the bo over, while sliding the hands along the shaft), you have excellent control over the weapon at all times.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 25, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Right now my main contact bo is a thicker oak,  he was saying either purple heart or hickory was acceptable



Cool. Hickory will probably be easier to come by, at least. Other than that, personal preference&#8230; see if you can find examples of both, and see which one you like. 



donald1 said:


> Afcoarse,  when I practice kobudo i always takes training seriously.  The sword thing is for the most part a collection and most of them I do not have a form for most but usually techniques or take a i have practiced some forms that a sword could also be used in(mostly train with a wooden bokkun sword and a wooden jian for bogua circles (i don't use the metal swords much)  the most metal weapon i practice with is a liuyedao but that's only because I do have a form for it
> The reason for the question,  while I do have some inexperience i know after some time and training I will have the experience to train with a better sword and if I was already saving for one then money won't be a problem when the sword ends up being expensive



Still not sure what you're wanting the sword for&#8230; if it's to be part of a collection, then typically you'll want it to be a certain quality&#8230; and that'll mean some expense&#8230; at the very least. If it's for training, what do you do in your training?


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## donald1 (Aug 25, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Cool. Hickory will probably be easier to come by, at least. Other than that, personal preference&#8230; see if you can find examples of both, and see which one you like.
> 
> 
> 
> Still not sure what you're wanting the sword for&#8230; if it's to be part of a collection, then typically you'll want it to be a certain quality&#8230; and that'll mean some expense&#8230; at the very least. If it's for training, what do you do in your training?



At this point just techniques and using different weapons in weapon forms (example: tanbo kata - instead of using tando switch weapons with sword) 

I will probably not be getting a good sword now but later when I do more sword practice id like to know what I'm looking for


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 25, 2014)

In regards to hard woods:

*Hickory is good and you will probably be very happy with that*.  Since your instructor recommend it that would be your best choice.

Purple Heart is enjoyable to work with well but has a higher chance of potentially shattering with really hard contact.  Just like Kamagong and cocobolo, etc.  

*The ideal best choice in my opinion is Japanese White Oak*.  Definitely my favorite among all options.  Great strength and resilience in one package!  Plus it will last with hard contact over a long period of time.  The one thing you do have to understand though is that not all Japanese White Oak is the same.  There are some floating around out there on the net for sale that are certainly of a much lower quality.  If you ever need this info I am more than happy to provide suppliers to avoid but pretty much any *big martial arts supplier* that I have encountered is using this cheaper white oak!  

Not a fan of ash that I have worked with at all.  Light, splinters to easily in my opinion with hard contact and deteriorates rapidly.  

*The ultimate junk is Red Oak*. If you want junk then use this.  Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact.  Just junk!  I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances.  Just garbage!  Worst of the worse!


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## Grenadier (Aug 25, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The ultimate junk is Red Oak*. If you want junk then use this.  Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact.  Just junk!  I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances.  Just garbage!  Worst of the worse!



It depends on the kind of red oak used.  For the most part, I strongly agree, that most of your red oak weapons are going to be made out of very porous red oak wood, and that a lot of these junky weapons need to be treated with wood fillers, in order to get a smooth finish.  Once they slap on the cheap varnish and sealant, then most people can't see how truly awful the weapon really is.  

On the flip side of the coin, there are some species of red oak that have a much more solid grain, and don't suffer from the porous nature of the cheaper red oak.  Unfortunately, this kind of red oak is quite rare, and usually isn't going to be used for making weapons.  Shureido uses this kind of red oak in some of their kobudo weapons.  Of course, the buyer pay quite a price premium, and for that kind of money, he's better off getting a different wood.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 25, 2014)

I have never trained with anything from Shureido so I have no experience with them.  They may be a rare exception.  Any red oak I have ever seen used basically was a one time usage with hard contact drills.  So I can't in good conscious recommend that anyone train with red oak as in my experience  it has been junk.

On another note I utilize rattan a lot and that is a great training tool but with the OP's question I did not feel it was what he was looking for.  Rattan has great shock absorbing capacities and it frays rather than shatters.  Making it an ideal training tool for extremely hard contact!

I also have no experience with white wax wood so I could not give a recommendation for it but I have heard it is descent.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2014)

donald1 said:


> At this point just techniques and using different weapons in weapon forms (example: tanbo kata - instead of using tando switch weapons with sword)
> 
> I will probably not be getting a good sword now but later when I do more sword practice id like to know what I'm looking for



Yeah&#8230; that really doesn't tell me much&#8230; 

What kind of "techniques"? Depending on the system, you might not ever actually use a metal sword&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *The ultimate junk is Red Oak*. If you want junk then use this.  Only suitable for non-contact training and will probably not last one session with hard contact.  Just junk!  I would never recommend red oak to anyone under any circumstances.  Just garbage!  Worst of the worse!



As Grenadier has done, I'm going to disagree with this, with a caveat.

Most of what is sold as "red oak" is over dried, cheap, red stained lower grade woods&#8230; it's not actually red oak at all. Actual red oak (Japanese) is the preferred material of a number of Ryu-ha, over white oak, as it has a greater overall density, giving the weapons created with it a greater weight. The grain isn't quite as tight as white oak, which some systems prefer as well&#8230; others, obviously, are the opposite.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 26, 2014)

*My experience is that any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare) was junk*.  Just craptastic!  Not hard to understand.  I'm not saying that there might not
be some good red oak out there.  Just not worth wasting my personal time with it! 


The Japanese systems that I am very familiar with prefer white oak and fukuro shinai.  Obviously there is a reason for this as white oak is a fantastic material to work with 
and has great strength and is very resilient!  When I was last in Japan I stocked up bought my own training tools in white oak and shipped them
back to my house.  That was not a mistake as I still have all these training tools years later!


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 26, 2014)

Aww just get a Chinese white wax staff and be done with it


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## Chris Parker (Aug 26, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *My experience is that any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare) was junk*.  Just craptastic!  Not hard to understand.  I'm not saying that there might not
> be some good red oak out there.  Just not worth wasting my personal time with it!



Honestly, Brian, I don't think you've had experience with actual red oak&#8230; more the "fake" red oak that I mentioned above. By the same token, I've seen a lot of items sold as "white oak", which is really just bleached hardwoods of some form&#8230; they're just as bad as the fake red oak.

You just need to get better gear&#8230; anything red oak from here I'd highly recommend&#8230; I have a fair bit myself (and a lot of their white oak items&#8230; and some sunuke&#8230 Bokken Swords | Bokken Training Swords for Aikido and Kendo



Brian R. VanCise said:


> The Japanese systems that I am very familiar with prefer white oak and fukuro shinai.  Obviously there is a reason for this as white oak is a fantastic material to work with
> and has great strength and is very resilient!  When I was last in Japan I stocked up bought my own training tools in white oak and shipped them
> back to my house.  That was not a mistake as I still have all these training tools years later!



Okay&#8230; do you know why they prefer white oak? Or fukuro shinai? I mean&#8230; red oak is very resilient, and has great strength as well&#8230; 

And, out of interest, which are the systems you're very familiar with that prefer fukuro shinai? What design? Just curious here...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 26, 2014)

Hey Chris,

*Most of the red oak out there sold is just junk.* (I feel like a broken record here)   I have seen it, felt it and witnessed people training with it.  Heck I can even spot poor red oak by looking at a video clip of someone training with it.  Nor do I feel that the OP should even investigate red oak.   I like you have also seen poor white oak.  Typically from a big martial arts supplier trying to cash in on its reputation.  Though this is more rare.  


Chris, I do not need to experience better red oak. Everyone I train with utilizes white oak and fukuro shinai.   I have great training tools in white oak bought in Japan by me personally.  The absolute best you can get.  Why would I switch or even be interested at this point?  When everyone I train with either uses white oak of fukuro shinai.

As for fukuro shinai I have personal handmade items by a master craftsman who makes them just for me to the highest caliber.  He only makes them for me and they are no longer for sale internationally.  When someone is looking for great fukuro shinai that are for sale I recommend them to Tim Bathurst located in Australia at Tombo Supplies: Bujinkan Bathurst Dojo » Tombo Supplies   I have some of these as well and they are great!  Not just good, great.  Tim makes a very fine product here.

As for systems I am familiar with Chris you know some of them already.  I do not even know why you are asking?


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## donald1 (Aug 26, 2014)

I 





Chris Parker said:


> Yeah&#8230; that really doesn't tell me much&#8230;
> 
> What kind of "techniques"? Depending on the system, you might not ever actually use a metal sword&#8230;
> 
> ...



Right now the only sword form i practice the only sword i practice with is jian for bogua circles (but it's wooden) maybe not in the style I'm in now but when I get more experience and training and eventually train in different styles maybe one that does but whether or not I have a form for it.  I would still like to add more to the collection but would like to know if there good or junk

To the techniques questions,  mostly practicing forms and sometimes using a different weapons or just combinations that could be used in weapon sparring


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## Badger1777 (Aug 26, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I got 4 questions
> 1.  Which Is better for long for hard hits,  durable,  also I prefer heavier bo over light,  which is better purple heart or hickory or would you suggest a different
> 2. Ash wood,  I heard of it might have even seen a bo made of it but don't know anything of it.  Is it good?  Just curious on that question



Is this for training, or for killing someone? I've seen totally untrained thugs do a lot of damage with rubbish bits of pine wood, or pool cues. My point is, if you are going to hit someone with a what is effectively a big stick, and you are thinking about which big stick will deliver the most force, well ANY big stick is going to deliver a lot of force, so if its for training purpose, to master an art without actually exploding someone's skull, does it matter that much how tough the stick is?


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## Grenadier (Aug 26, 2014)

Badger1777 said:


> My point is, if you are going to hit someone with a what is effectively a big stick, and you are thinking about which big stick will deliver the most force, well ANY big stick is going to deliver a lot of force, so if its for training purpose, to master an art without actually exploding someone's skull, does it matter that much how tough the stick is?



Yes, it does matter. 

Cheaply made wooden weapons are made of inferior types of wood, and they break very easily.  Even a decent swing with no contact can run the risk of breaking such a weapon.  Also, many a system will work bo on bo drills, and you certainly don't want a junk weapon when it comes to that, since such a weapon will quickly become splinters.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 26, 2014)

*Yes as Grenadier pointed out it matters quite a bit.*   Quality training tools that can take the heavy contact and maintain their shape and form without damaging or splintering are a must for
systems that use them in hard contact drills.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 27, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Chris,
> 
> *Most of the red oak out there sold is just junk.* (I feel like a broken record here)   I have seen it, felt it and witnessed people training with it.  Heck I can even spot poor red oak by looking at a video clip of someone training with it.  Nor do I feel that the OP should even investigate red oak.   I like you have also seen poor white oak.  Typically from a big martial arts supplier trying to cash in on its reputation.  Though this is more rare.



No, I'd say that most of what is sold as red oak is junk&#8230; but that doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't investigate it&#8230; that's like saying that $79 wall-hanger "samurai katana swords" are junk, so there's no point investigating real swords.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris, I do not need to experience better red oak. Everyone I train with utilizes white oak and fukuro shinai.   I have great training tools in white oak bought in Japan by me personally.  The absolute best you can get.  Why would I switch or even be interested at this point?  When everyone I train with either uses white oak of fukuro shinai.



I'm not saying you need to use red oak, Brian&#8230; and I'm definitely not suggesting that you need to "switch" what you're currently using&#8230; but I am suggesting that, if you're going to label it almost entirely as "junk", it might help if you see what the real stuff is like.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to infer by talking about the white oak items you have bought in Japan (underlined for no reason at all, right?)&#8230; so you've got some good tools&#8230; great&#8230; that doesn't make white oak the single best material, or your items the "best you can get", it must be said. Again, different systems (and people) will have different opinions as to what constitutes the "best", after all&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As for fukuro shinai I have personal handmade items by a master craftsman who makes them just for me to the highest caliber.  He only makes them for me and they are no longer for sale internationally.  When someone is looking for great fukuro shinai that are for sale I recommend them to Tim Bathurst located in Australia at Tombo Supplies: Bujinkan Bathurst Dojo » Tombo Supplies   I have some of these as well and they are great!  Not just good, great.  Tim makes a very fine product here.



Yeah, I have some of Tim's fukuro shinai&#8230; as well as quite an extensive collection of many, many other items&#8230; ranging from the aforementioned "junk" through to Japanese red and white oak, a range of European hardwoods, manau cane, a wax-wood Jo (just for you, Xue&#8230; but I gotta say, I prefer my Japanese white oak one, for a few reasons), as well as metal (steel and alloy in various items)&#8230; I quite like Tim's items&#8230; however, we stopped using them a number of years ago, in preference for wooden items. I still get mine out on occasion for certain things, though&#8230; as well as my Jinenkan fukuro shinai (I prefer Tim's, to be honest).



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As for systems I am familiar with Chris you know some of them already.  I do not even know why you are asking?



So, can you name the systems you are "very familiar" with that prefer a fukuro shinai? I wasn't aware that you were overly familiar with any system that actually does, so it's piqued my curiosity...



donald1 said:


> Right now the only sword form i practice the only sword i practice with is jian for bogua circles (but it's wooden) maybe not in the style I'm in now but when I get more experience and training and eventually train in different styles maybe one that does but whether or not I have a form for it.  I would still like to add more to the collection but would like to know if there good or junk



Here's the thing&#8230; you can't learn what's "good" or "bad" in any real way from a forum&#8230; or a book&#8230; you need someone guiding you, in person, highlighting range of aspects for you to pay attention to. Similar to choice of materials, different systems and instructors will have a range of different preferences for their non-wooden weaponry as well&#8230; ranging from specifications and mountings, to design, to balance and weight, and more. There is no single answer&#8230; 



donald1 said:


> To the techniques questions,  mostly practicing forms and sometimes using a different weapons or just combinations that could be used in weapon sparring



Yeah&#8230; that's still pretty vague&#8230; if you're meaning something like a solo Chinese-style form, then look to the systems preferences, and ask your instructor. The idea of "sometimes using a different weapon or just combinations" seems to suggest to me that you're kinda making it up yourself as you go&#8230; would that be correct? And, while we're here, are you talking about Chinese swords, or just swords in general?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2014)

*Chris all of the Japanese martial practitioners* that I know across several systems all use Japanese white oak for their wooden training weapons and a few utilize hickory.   Hickory is easily accessible in the US and a good number of wood workers who make training weapons produce hickory ones.  *Yet, in the end all the practitioners* that I know prefer white oak.  No one and I repeat no one uses red oak.  *They all avoid it*!  Like me they all think it is crap.  

If you like red oak that is fine as you are entitled to your opinion.  Though you said just above that you, yourself prefer white oak. (kind've confusing for the OP don't you think)  *I**t feels like we are going through the motions of conversation and in the end ju**st to have the same result in that I would not recommend it for the OP*!  Nor would I recommend it for anyone training in a system that utilizes hard contact with their wooden training weapons.  There is a high likelihood that they would get some training weapons that would splinter, crack, shatter during training and that quite frankly is a good enough reason for me not to recommend anyone train with red oak. 

As to fukuro shinai it is good that you have experienced Tim's as they are very, very good.  *High quality*.  I have only trained once with a Jinenkan fukuro shinai and it got the job done but not as nice as what Tim or my friend make.  Still it got the job done.

Just so we are on the same page.  The systems I mentioned the practitioner's prefer white oak *and* fukuro shinai.  Not fukuro shinai over wooden training weapons.  I think you confused that though it was pretty plane in my writing before.


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## donald1 (Aug 27, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> No, I'd say that most of what is sold as red oak is junk&#8230; but that doesn't mean that the OP shouldn't investigate it&#8230; that's like saying that $79 wall-hanger "samurai katana swords" are junk, so there's no point investigating real swords.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You know what,  I think I will ask my instructor that question 

I don't know what that question means making my self up as I go?? 

Swords in general but the only sword form i learned is a Chinese sword


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## Chris Parker (Aug 28, 2014)

Brian, you're missing everything again. Let's try once more&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Chris all of the Japanese martial practitioners* that I know across several systems all use Japanese white oak for their wooden training weapons and a few utilize hickory.


 
White oak (shirokashi) is very popular&#8230; and hickory is a good American hardwood substitute, as it shares many of the same principles&#8230; but none of that has been argued against&#8230; nor is any of that really relevant to the point I have been making.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hickory is easily accessible in the US and a good number of wood workers who make training weapons produce hickory ones.


 Er&#8230; yeah&#8230; you can go back to the third post in the thread for me talking about the benefits and properties of hickory&#8230; not really sure what you think you're saying here&#8230;



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Yet, in the end all the practitioners* that I know prefer white oak.


 
Again, not uncommon. Still not sure what your point is&#8230; I mean, the question in the OP didn't involve Japanese woods at all&#8230; I brought them up as an example of systems having particular preferences&#8230; you then brought them up again to push something the OP didn't ask for, or about, including a scathing, and I might say, rather ill-informed critique on red oak&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> No one and I repeat no one uses red oak.  *They all avoid it*!  Like me they all think it is crap.


Look, it's fine that you don't know anyone that uses it&#8230; but believe me, it is used. Japanese red oak (akakashi) has been a staple for centuries for a range of items&#8230; more often longer weapons than shorter ones&#8230; also favoured by systems that have a lot of conditioning work, due to the heavier weight&#8230; it's an incredibly good wood for the purpose. It crushes like shirokashi&#8230; it's heavy&#8230; the grain isn't as tight as shirokashi&#8230; which means that it takes less time to season and age properly&#8230; akakashi is less likely to warp in humid climates as well&#8230; 

None of that means that red oak is more popular&#8230; it's not, really&#8230; white oak is&#8230; but it does show that red oak (proper red oak) is far from "crap"&#8230; but, one more time, the majority of what is sold as "red oak" is really nothing like actual akakashi&#8230; so it's both unfair, and rather misleading (or disingenuous) to label it based on false examples. Look again to my analogy of the $79 wall hanger&#8230; are you going to judge Japanese swords by that weapon? That's what you're doing with your comments on akakashi.

Actually, tell you what&#8230; here's Ellis Amdur's take on the wood:



> It is less flexible than hickory and more dent resistant.  One negative quality is that the sap tends to dry out. You must regularly oil kashi or it gets increasingly brittle.  In addition, as it ages, the grain tends to separate.  Most Japanese weapons sold these days are made of inferior oak, from Kyushu (the grain is much more porous) or Taiwan.  Genuine kashi from Japan is marvelous for weapons.



Note how he mentions (as I have done) that most "Japanese" oak weapons aren't really what would be classed as actual Japanese oak&#8230; either shirokashi or akakashi&#8230; you're as likely to get incredibly poor "substitute" white oak as you are red&#8230; it's just that the "white" is sold at a premium (based on false representation, more than anything else), so the majority of items sold are substitute red oak&#8230; they're both garbage woods, really&#8230; but neither of them are the actual Japanese oaks themselves, so it's pointless basing an opinion on these substitutes. You even made this observation on white oak commonly sold yourself in your first post in the thread&#8230; so why you're fighting against the idea of it being the same with red, I have no idea&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> If you like red oak that is fine as you are entitled to your opinion.


 
You're missing the argument, Brian. I'm saying that your opinion is not based on any experience with the wood itself&#8230; whereas mine is. Hell, you yourself say "My experience with any red oak I have worked with (albeit very rare)"&#8230; so you haven't really gotten much experience with any form of red oak, and, from the sounds of things, absolutely none with actual akakashi&#8230; again, I don't understand why you're not willing to accept that what you've used was junk, but that's the same as the poor substituted "white oak" you yourself brought up in your post.

For the record, though, my collection includes items in shirokashi, akakashi, both of the "substitute" versions (both of which are terrible&#8230; there's a reason I get all the bokken for my school myself from Japan&#8230; and only from sources I trust), hornbeam, hickory, manau cane, sunuke, bamboo, leather-bound bamboo, pine, wax-wood, and more&#8230; I've also used things like eucalyptus, jotoba, ironbark, kamigong, ebony, and more.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Though you said just above that you, yourself prefer white oak. (kind've confusing for the OP don't you think)



No, not confusing for them&#8230; as it's besides the point of the OP, and not part of their question&#8230; it was part of the conversation with you. And yeah, I tend to prefer white oak&#8230; but I'm not locked into that as a single material&#8230; I'm looking at getting some ipu items soon as well&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I**t feels like we are going through the motions of conversation and in the end ju**st to have the same result in that I would not recommend it for the OP*!  Nor would I recommend it for anyone training in a system that utilizes hard contact with their wooden training weapons.  There is a high likelihood that they would get some training weapons that would splinter, crack, shatter during training and that quite frankly is a good enough reason for me not to recommend anyone train with red oak.


You're not dealing with the actual wood, though. That's the point I've been trying to make. Additionally, the OP hasn't said anything about impact&#8230; he's mentioned kobudo&#8230; which has quite a lot of solo forms, rather than anything to do with impact&#8230; so you're simply projecting your own training onto his question, and are looking for what you would use in your training, without actually considering that his usage and needs are rather different. That's why I only dealt with the woods he asked about&#8230; rather than trying to suggest that he has should be using something completely different.

Tell you what&#8230; you go and get some real red oak, train with it, and tell me what you think (compared to both your previous "red oak" and with your Japanese white oak)&#8230; until then, you're critiquing katana by looking at a wall hanger.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As to fukuro shinai it is good that you have experienced Tim's as they are very, very good.  *High quality*.  I have only trained once with a Jinenkan fukuro shinai and it got the job done but not as nice as what Tim or my friend make.  Still it got the job done.



They're designed quite differently for a range of reasons, of course&#8230; both of them "get the job done", dependent on what the job is. And yeah, Tim's are good&#8230; not sure why you feel the need to validate my experience, though&#8230; hmm&#8230; 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Just so we are on the same page.  The systems I mentioned the practitioner's prefer white oak *and* fukuro shinai.  Not fukuro shinai over wooden training weapons.  I think you confused that though it was pretty plane in my writing before.



No, we're not on the same page, as you've not only not answered my question, you've leapt to an unsupported and inaccurate assumption. I never thought there was a preference for one over the other&#8230; my question is what system are you, personally, "very familiar with" that has a preference (as one of it's training tools) for using fukuro shinai? Can you name the systems themselves? That's what I've asked three times now. There may be follow up questions (here's a clue: one of them is already in an above post&#8230; number 17&#8230.



donald1 said:


> You know what,  I think I will ask my instructor that question



About what to look for in swords? Cool. 



donald1 said:


> I don't know what that question means making my self up as I go??



I was asking if you were simply coming up with techniques/combinations yourself&#8230; basically swinging a sword around without a pre-determined sequence, for example. 



donald1 said:


> Swords in general but the only sword form i learned is a Chinese sword



Okay. Different forms of swords are going to have some rather wildly varying criteria to them&#8230; "swords in general" is not an easy thing to discuss, there are simply way too many variables and exceptions. It's probably better to pick a form of sword first, and learn about it&#8230; from there, you can begin to see what's applicable to other forms, and what's particular to that form.


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## donald1 (Aug 28, 2014)

I don't know if I'd say without a pre determined,  I try to figure out what I'm going to do before I do it,  if I do just like seeing what is more effective for weapon sparring. I think some people refer to it as shadow partner (i think,  not completely certain one that) 

I did ask my instructor yesterday when class was over how to tell if it's good or junk.  And he said 2 things if it wobbles (or maybe it was loose) or if the blade stops at the handle its junk


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## Chris Parker (Aug 28, 2014)

donald1 said:


> I don't know if I'd say without a pre determined,  I try to figure out what I'm going to do before I do it,  if I do just like seeing what is more effective for weapon sparring.



Okay&#8230; so you're coming up with the actions yourself, yeah? Out of interest, how do you decide if what you're doing is "more effective" for weapon sparring? How do you qualify things? 



donald1 said:


> I think some people refer to it as shadow partner (i think,  not completely certain one that)



I think you mean shadow boxing there.



donald1 said:


> I did ask my instructor yesterday when class was over how to tell if it's good or junk.  And he said 2 things if it wobbles (or maybe it was loose) or if the blade stops at the handle its junk



Okay&#8230; that's to do with the fittings of the sword (everything other than the blade) and the tang (the part of the blade that fits inside the handle). Both of which are indications of how safe it is to use, and are indications of cheap build quality. Interesting that he'd pick those aspects to highlight.


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## donald1 (Aug 28, 2014)

I don't know we practice 1 person forms and 2 people sets but hardly been a while since we weapon sparred.  Either way the only thing I know now it's just good practice 

I think he was in a hurry to leave,  he didn't stay and talk after class,  sometimes the students talk about their day and he usually is there but left quickly


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2014)

*Okay let's try this again,* 

Chris the OP, donald1 asked a pretty general question about what wood was durable and better for hard hits.
You, Grenadier and I offered opinions.  All pretty similar with you and I favoring white oak.  Though I mentioned my disdain
for red oak.  If the OP came across red oak where he lives in a ma supply store it probably will be crap.  I would add
 that I know of no one that uses red oak.  This is not hard to understand.  With the OP living in the US his best bet 
is of course to ask his teacher and get a recommendation but if he does go out on his own to buy training implements 
with hickory being a common wood used here he probably won't go wrong with it.  If he can find a supplier of white oak
 that would be preferred but hickory would more than likely work for him.  We have pretty much already hashed this out 
and it is useful information for donald1.

I would add that there are also now wood composite training swords that appear to offer fantastic strength.  Personally I do not use
them but know several aikidoka who do and they all swear by them.  Composite wood when done right can offer another
outlet for the martial practitioner to explore to find that durability that they are looking for.  Like I said I do not use them so
I cannot endorse them but I have heard some very good things.

As to your unanswered question I am not fielding it because it does not belong in this thread nor does it in anyway help the OP
with his question on wood durability.  We need to stay on topic in this thread but you are always welcome to start another thread
to field questions about systems that utilize both wood training implements and fukuro shinai.   Or you are more than welcome to pm me!


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## donald1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Red oak can be cheap and break easily its more or less good for first time students.  I use a thick red oak.  I'm planning on switching in the near future but for what I've talked to with my instructor there's two kinds a quick growing and a slow growing (i think that's how he phrased it) and the slower growing is better than the quick growing 

Which one is a heavier wood hickory or white oak
Personally i like having the extra weight to the bo.  I remember my first bo then switching to a thicker bo after I got used to it the old bo felt too light and now I think I'd like to try a better wood that has more weight 
Thanks


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2014)

donald1 my experience is that with the training implements that I have the hickory ones seem a slight bit heavier.  However, it is so negligible that it 
 doesn't matter to me.  Hickory is very common in the US and used a lot.

 Here is an interesting read on comparison of the  three types of wood hickory, white oak, red oak: Oak vs. Hickory Wood | eHow

 Here is one just talking about hickory: Information on Hickory Wood | eHow

 Wood use around the world is in some ways very geographical in that certain woods in certain areas work better do to the climate, etc.

 In the Philippines and throughout Southeast Asia rattan is a very standard training tool. (Indonesia, India, Philippines, etc.  However when they 
 want a harder wood in the Philippines for home defense, etc. they will use kamagong or bahi, etc.  Where I am at in Las Vegas kamagong is not an ideal wood as it
 does not like the dry heat.  I keep all my kamagong sticks together in a climate controlled room so they do not crack.  

 Hope the above gives you some ideas.


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## donald1 (Aug 28, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> donald1 my experience is that with the training implements that I have the hickory ones seem a slight bit heavier.  However, it is so negligible that it
> doesn't matter to me.  Hickory is very common in the US and used a lot.
> 
> Here is an interesting read on comparison of the  three types of wood hickory, white oak, red oak: Oak vs. Hickory Wood | eHow
> ...



Whenever I sand my red oak bo i don't wear a mask should I be concerned and or get a mask


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## Blindside (Aug 28, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Whenever I sand my red oak bo i don't wear a mask should I be concerned and or get a mask



The safe answer is yes, you should get a mask, oak isn't a high allergen risk in terms of woods, but it is always better to err on the safe side.


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## Grenadier (Aug 28, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Whenever I sand my red oak bo i don't wear a mask should I be concerned and or get a mask



Yes, wear a mask, and if you have goggles, use them as well.  

There is a thing called "Carpenter's Cancer," and although you wouldn't be exposed to nearly as much as a carpenter would, it's still best not to take any chances.  Besides, inhaling sawdust is one of the most irritating sensations you'll encounter, since it doesn't wash away that easily.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2014)

When evening I am working with wood whether cutting, sanding, etc. I always where a mask and eye protection.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 29, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Okay let's try this again,*
> 
> Chris the OP, donald1 asked a pretty general question about what wood was durable and better for hard hits.
> You, Grenadier and I offered opinions.  All pretty similar with you and I favoring white oak.  Though I mentioned my disdain
> ...



Sure, let's try again&#8230; 

What I've been trying to, Brian, is to show that a blanket dismissal based on inferior examples can be misleading and inaccurate. Donald is just as likely to come across the inferior "false" white oak as he is the inferior "false" red oak unless going through someone like the page I linked back on the first page. I've also been trying to improve your knowledge in this area&#8230; something you've been fighting against for whatever reason.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would add that there are also now wood composite training swords that appear to offer fantastic strength.  Personally I do not use
> them but know several aikidoka who do and they all swear by them.  Composite wood when done right can offer another
> outlet for the martial practitioner to explore to find that durability that they are looking for.  Like I said I do not use them so
> I cannot endorse them but I have heard some very good things.



I've used some of the composite and completely artificial bokken (is that term still applicable? Hmm&#8230 myself&#8230; such as the so-called "indestructible bokken"&#8230; I'm really not fond of them personally.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As to your unanswered question I am not fielding it because it does not belong in this thread nor does it in anyway help the OP
> with his question on wood durability.  We need to stay on topic in this thread but you are always welcome to start another thread
> to field questions about systems that utilize both wood training implements and fukuro shinai.   Or you are more than welcome to pm me!



Hardly any need, Brian. I'm pretty sure I know what you're referring to, and there is no preference in the systems for fukuro shinai there&#8230; there is an organisational one, but not a ryu-ha one. That said, if you were actually familiar with one of the systems that does utilise fukuro shinai as standard equipment, that could have been interesting&#8230; oh well&#8230; 



donald1 said:


> Red oak can be cheap and break easily its more or less good for first time students.  I use a thick red oak.  I'm planning on switching in the near future but for what I've talked to with my instructor there's two kinds a quick growing and a slow growing (i think that's how he phrased it) and the slower growing is better than the quick growing
> 
> Which one is a heavier wood hickory or white oak
> Personally i like having the extra weight to the bo.  I remember my first bo then switching to a thicker bo after I got used to it the old bo felt too light and now I think I'd like to try a better wood that has more weight
> Thanks



Similar&#8230; hickory is a fairly light wood, and white oak is lighter than red&#8230; probably not much in it, really.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> donald1 my experience is that with the training implements that I have the hickory ones seem a slight bit heavier.  However, it is so negligible that it
> doesn't matter to me.  Hickory is very common in the US and used a lot.
> 
> Here is an interesting read on comparison of the  three types of wood hickory, white oak, red oak: Oak vs. Hickory Wood | eHow
> ...



Hmm&#8230; as neither of those links have any information on their suitability or applicability to weapons, I'd simply like to provide the following: Wood for Weaponry | Toda-ha Buk?-ry? Naginatajutsu

Note the comments in the kashi (Japanese oak) section on people dismissing it based on mistaking it as the wrong wood&#8230;


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2014)

Chris,

I do not think it is misleading or inaccurate.  The example of "red oak" being crap is pretty standard amongst Japanese practitioners across several disciplines that I personally know.  They all favor white oak.  Not to hard to understand then.  The links I provided showed Hickory being harder than white oak with red oak being softer and that is assuming you can even get quality red oak which quite frankly obviously is a rare event.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2014)

Anyways let's hope that we have at least given donald1 some things to think about as he goes to buy his martial training supplies!  Hopefully we have helped him out!


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## donald1 (Aug 29, 2014)

Yes and thankyou it helped but I only have one last question,  what's a good heavier wood


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2014)

Well people do train with Hickory training tools which is heavier/denser than white oak and of course significantly more than red oak.  Purple Heart is also heavier/denser and while I do not train with it I have not heard any complaints either.  The heaviest sticks I train with are Kamagong which is a very heavy/hard ebony wood found in the Philippines.  It is definitely a very heavy hard wood and perfect for self defense but.... what is necessarily always good for hitting someone may not be the ideal training implement.  Kamagong is typically thought of as a great tool for self-defense and also for personal strength building but you will not find FMA practitioner's hitting kamagong sticks together in training because the sticks might shatter sending a piece flying.  FMA practitioners also do not like hickory all that much on average, etc.  This is a potential common problem the harder the wood is.  Where as a lighter training wood like rattan is used in stick on stick work.  Rattan slowly shreds but does not splinter very often.  That is why they are perfect for incredibly hard striking drills that frankly would fry and or shatter many hardwoods.  Yet, I would not want a rattan stick for self-defense instead I would want kamagong for it's heaviness and density and of course they are just a substitute for a blade.  Japanese white oak is like a perfect blend of hardness and density plus the ability to absorb repeated blows without damage.  Hickory is good as well but a little heavier.  Many people train with hickory and enjoy it.  I have some hickory three foot and four foot sticks and they have lasted a long time.  Though I totally prefer my white oak sticks of the same sizes.

What you want to find is the right wood for the tool you are using with the the density and hardness plus weight that you desire.

Personally I do not think you could go wrong with White Oak or Hickory for what it sounds you like you want.


Top Ten heaviest woods: Top Ten Heaviest Woods | The Wood Database

Top Ten hardest woods: http://www.tenorama.com/en/ranking/top-ten-hardest-woods-world

Here is the janka scale for a lot of different wood:  http://tinytimbers.com/pdf/chart_janka.pdf

more janka: The Janka Hardness Test for Hardwoods


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## Grenadier (Sep 2, 2014)

donald1 said:


> Yes and thankyou it helped but I only have one last question,  what's a good heavier wood



How much are you willing to spend?  

For the heavy woods, Jatoba (Brazilian Cherry), Purpleheart, and Ipe (Brazilian Walnut) are probably going to be the best choice for the money spent.  Otherwise, you're going to be looking at something far more expensive.


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## donald1 (Sep 2, 2014)

For this time I plan on being price around less than $200 

What's the average price range of purple heart,  I've known several people in my class to be very proud of theirs so I'm considering one too.  Later on when I get a lot more experienced i plan on getting one better than that(that one price will not matter i can save up for it)


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## Chris Parker (Sep 3, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Chris,
> 
> I do not think it is misleading or inaccurate.  The example of "red oak" being crap is pretty standard amongst Japanese practitioners across several disciplines that I personally know.  They all favor white oak.  Not to hard to understand then.  The links I provided showed Hickory being harder than white oak with red oak being softer and that is assuming you can even get quality red oak which quite frankly obviously is a rare event.



Brian, your own comment on your experience with red oak is that it's minimalist&#8230; I've been dealing with it (the false substitute "red oak", and the real deal) for 2 decades or more&#8230; and I've been pointing out that your limited experience and anecdotal comments from some unnamed practitioners of unnamed systems (with the only proviso being "Japanese") doesn't really give an accurate or informed/authoritative description of what red oak (the real stuff) is actually like&#8230; as a result, yeah, it's both misleading and inaccurate. And, one more time, just because the guys you know all prefer white oak doesn't mean that red oak is crap, nor that it's universally not utilised or liked&#8230; ask them what their take on biwa is, and we'll see how much they've researched and looked into these areas. 

And again, I'm going to state that my personal collection is fairly large&#8230; and includes a large array of materials&#8230; which I can compare very easily. That's where I'm coming from.



donald1 said:


> Yes and thankyou it helped but I only have one last question,  what's a good heavier wood





Brian R. VanCise said:


> Well people do train with Hickory training tools which is heavier/denser than white oak and of course significantly more than red oak.



No, it's not. Red oak is heavier. That's specifically why it's favoured in a number of the systems that use it. The fake "red oak" is quite light&#8230; but actual red oak isn't. It's commonly used for suburito over white oak for just that reason. Systems that have a lot of contact or conditioning tend to prefer it as well.



donald1 said:


> For this time I plan on being price around less than $200
> 
> What's the average price range of purple heart,  I've known several people in my class to be very proud of theirs so I'm considering one too.  Later on when I get a lot more experienced i plan on getting one better than that(that one price will not matter i can save up for it)



Just a heads up, then, weaponry that costs that much tend to be more as show-pieces, rather than usable items&#8230; frankly, although I have items that expensive and more, it's not something I'd spend on an everyday usable item. Most of my bokken for regular class use are sent from Japan, and come out at about $75AU with shipping etc&#8230; and even that's about as far as I'd go. So, really, it comes back to the question at the beginning of what you're wanting to get it for&#8230; if it's a practical, everyday usage training tool, you really don't need to spend anything near that&#8230; if it's to be a pretty showpiece, cool&#8230; just pick something you like the look of. But in terms of the specifics of the various woods, I'd suggest again reading Ellis Amdur's post on the materials that I linked in a previous post (the Toda-ha Buko Ryu one).


----------



## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2014)

Red Oak (Quercus rubra)



> Common Name(s): Red Oak
> Scientific Name: Quercus rubra
> Distribution: Northeastern United States and Southeastern Canada
> Tree Size: 80-115 ft (25-35 m) tall, 3-6 ft (1-2 m) trunk diameter
> ...



White Oak (Quercus alba)



> View More Images Below
> Common Name(s): White Oak
> Scientific Name: Quercus alba
> Distribution: Eastern United States
> ...



Hickory - Various species can be found here for weight and density purposes


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## Chris Parker (Sep 3, 2014)

Not those oaks, Xue&#8230; check the Toda-ha Buko Ryu link above for the species&#8230; it's an important distinction.


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## donald1 (Sep 3, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> Brian, your own comment on your experience with red oak is that it's minimalist&#8230; I've been dealing with it (the false substitute "red oak", and the real deal) for 2 decades or more&#8230; and I've been pointing out that your limited experience and anecdotal comments from some unnamed practitioners of unnamed systems (with the only proviso being "Japanese") doesn't really give an accurate or informed/authoritative description of what red oak (the real stuff) is actually like&#8230; as a result, yeah, it's both misleading and inaccurate. And, one more time, just because the guys you know all prefer white oak doesn't mean that red oak is crap, nor that it's universally not utilised or liked&#8230; ask them what their take on biwa is, and we'll see how much they've researched and looked into these areas.
> 
> And again, I'm going to state that my personal collection is fairly large&#8230; and includes a large array of materials&#8230; which I can compare very easily. That's where I'm coming from.
> 
> ...



That's good news,  ill be sure to check the link


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 3, 2014)

Hey Chris,

*A lot of people seem to have differing opinions.*  Me for practice with the Bokken, Hanbo, Jo, Rokushaku Bo, yari, naginata, etc. I am either going to use white oak, rare occasions hickory or fukuro shinai.  That is me.  I feel that red oak is crap. 


I'm not the only one though.  Meik Skoss on another forum mentioned this:

Hardness is not the only factor one looks for with a wooden weapon; elasticity or resilience is also very important. Japanese white oak (shirogashi) is easily the best for training in a Japanese weapons art. Akagashi, or Japanese red oak is a lot softer and splinters more easily.

 Ipe and ebony are not very good choices: ebony (J: kokutan) is brittle and shatters after a short time; ipe is hard, to be sure, but it's really heavy. One of my students has a naginata made of ipe, I believe, and I don't like the feel of it. It does not have the "live" feeling I feel in white oak; waza done with the weapon aren't dynamic, leading to a very unsatisfactory practice.

 Biwa, or loquat, is another wood to avoid. Several of my teachers would not allow people to train with a weapon made of biwa if they were working with a partner; they said that injuries incurred with such weapons would never heal. I don't know if that is true or not, but it is what they said. Maybe there's some truth to the idea.

 Hope this helps,

 Meik Skoss
 Shutokukan Dojo
 Koryu.com 

Taken from here: Best wood for bokken
(note Mr. Skoss doesn't appear to like Japanese Red Oak)



Here is a very reputable manufacturer whose products people really like.  His opinion are that only two woods are suitable Japanese White Oak and Hickory. (specifically Appalachian hickory)  

*What are the differences between Japanese White Oak (Shiro Kashi) and Appalachian Hickory? * The US and Japan are fortunate to have indigenous woods with high impact strength. There is a huge amount of erroneous information available concerning the strength of various kinds of wood. Despite innumerable claims, of all of the thousands of wood species worldwide, two are _generally_ suitable for martial art weapons subject to heavy contact - Shiro Kashi and Appalachian Hickory. 

In comparison, Shiro Kashi, like all oaks, slowly gets brittle over time where hickory retains its springy resilience. If warpage occurs in oak due to humidity swings, its permanent but Appalachian hickory can be straightened quite easily. Shiro Kashi might be a bit heavier on average and perhaps a bit harder. Appalachian hickory can be tempered so despite its initially softer state, it can be "run in" to achieve a superb hardened outer surface with a tough, ductile core. Japanese White Oak is uniformly light in color whereas Appalachian hickory includes both reddish and cream colored wood. Appalachian hickory has a long history in the United States of being the preferred wood for striking tool handles and as such, has an established reputation for safety. 

Taken from here:  Kingfisher WoodWorks LLC: FAQ
Note his opinion that only two woods are suitable for hard contact and that is Japanese White Oak and Appalachian Hickory

*I literally could find ton's of people on the internet talking up white oak and deriding red oak but I tire of this.*

Hopefully we have given donald1 plenty to think about and he makes a purchase that he truly enjoys working with!


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## donald1 (Sep 4, 2014)

My instructor let me borrow a sample kit there was 11 kinds of wood in it ash,  yellowheart,  cherry,  jotoba,  bloodwood,  purpleheart,  bubinga moradillo,  mahogany,  cocobolo,  and bocata 

I like the bubinga cause the wood looks like a nice color it looks like it almost changes colors when reflected at the light  but that's the biggest reason why I like it so im not going to get it,  yes I know not all the woods are good for bo materials.  Also I'm thinking about moradillo doesn't look as good looking as jotoba or bubinga but seems like a good bo material
Thanks for the advice everyone it helped a lot


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