# " Chinese Wrestling "



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Interesting how they stamp like a Bull before attacking 😁


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

seem a friendly bunch


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

I dedicate this to *JoGaWolf * & * Oily Dragon  





*


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 9, 2022)

I believe @Kung Fu Wang was a Shuaijiao guy.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> I believe @Kung Fu Wang was a Shuaijiao guy.


no idea what that is


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


I’m pretty sure @Kung Fu Wang does Chinese wrestling.


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> no idea what that is


Lol. He’s a poster on this forum who does the thing you’re posting videos about.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Steve said:


> Lol. He’s a poster on this forum who does the thing you’re posting videos about.


i need to wear my glasses more often.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


It's JUDO to me. That's how we did it before........No stomping though. We didn't have the habit to tell the opponent that we are coming.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I dedicate this to *JoGaWolf * & * Oily Dragon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


More Kung Fu Wang. Didn't watch the whole thing, any dancing with the barbell that made of stone over the head or rolling the drum?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> More Kung Fu Wang.


yeah him too !


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's JUDO to me. That's how we did it before........No stomping though. We didn't have the habit to tell the opponent that we are coming.


right i´m wearing my Goggles now so can read... yes the stamping is something i´ve never seen before.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> no idea what that is



Shuaijiao is what you are asking about. All those videos are of Shuaijiao and traditional Shuaijiao training

*Shuaijiao*


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Shuaijiao is what you are asking about. All those videos are of Shuaijiao


i am being honest here, i never had my glasses on & am blind as a bat when reading


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> i am being honest here, i never had my glasses on & am blind as a bat when reading


Ha ha, I don't need glasses, but it's still JUDO to me. Minus the stomping.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> the stomping.


Like a raging bull 😀
It really depends if I'm on my phone or computer. Never renewed my truck licence @ 55 as I don't think I'll pass the eye sight tests.  When I was 50 they said next time with glasses. Not that I drive trucks now so don't care. Just reading I need them. Small print Was getting blurred


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, I don't need glasses, but it's still JUDO to me. Minus the stomping.


That was my first impression, too.  But then to me, it was a little different - seemed like the techniques were cleaner and crisper with more precision - less grabbing, gi tugging, and "dancing".  I also liked that the throws were done with great control to minimize chance of injury.  This was my first real look at Chinese wrestling - I liked it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Interesting how they stamp like a Bull before attacking 😁
> View attachment 29062







It's normal for wrestling.  It's not a stamp.  Sometimes it's because they are trying to trigger a response other times its a change of plans "I was going to do this, but my opportunity closed so I stopped."  You can see the same stomping above.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's normal for wrestling.  It's not a stamp.  Sometimes it's because they are trying to trigger a response other times its a change of plans "I was going to do this, but my opportunity closed so I stopped."  You can see the same stomping above.


Like a feint. Yeah I get that but a Bull does it 🐮...haha


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I dedicate this to *JoGaWolf * & * Oily Dragon
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ha ha ha.. I dedicate this to you and Alan


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> That was my first impression, too.  But then to me, it was a little different - seemed like the techniques were cleaner and crisper with more precision - less grabbing, gi tugging, and "dancing".  I also liked that the throws were done with great control to minimize chance of injury.  This was my first real look at Chinese wrestling - I liked it.


We protect the opponent also, maybe just in the competition only. We always pull the opponent's gi on one side when we throw to make sure he landed on one side and not no the head. 

I don't know of any dancing in Judo. It's no nonsense in my experience.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. I dedicate this to you and Alan


I don't do anything like this at all. I don't even think Judo is useful at all.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's JUDO to me. That's how we did it before........No stomping though. We didn't have the habit to tell the opponent that we are coming.


This is because Jimmy is having a bad influence on you lol


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> We protect the opponent also, maybe just in the competition only. We always pull the opponent's gi on one side when we throw to make sure he landed on one side and not no the head.
> 
> I don't know of any dancing in Judo. It's no nonsense in my experience.


My MMA sparring partner does the kettle bell swings and the plate rotation.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> ha ha ha.. I dedicate this to you and Alan


The wrestling is actually very good.
The other stuff..sort of looks a bit weird.( original videos)


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> My MMA sparring partner does the kettle bell swings and the plate rotation.


Yes they're not a new thing. The original Videos i posted showed some dancing aerobics. Like mc Hammer 🤣
Same pants too


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


Yes, Shuai Jiao ancestor styles are baked into a few different traditional CMA.  But it's also a standalone combat sport.

Whether or not you'd learn it in a school depends a lot on the teacher.  Some Tai Chi schools do this stuff, many don't.  Hung Kuen schools often do.

It's also a subset of San Shou, full contact standing mixed CMA.  Cung Le did a great book on it.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's JUDO to me. That's how we did it before........No stomping though. We didn't have the habit to tell the opponent that we are coming.


It's a lot, lot older than Japan.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's a lot, lot older than Japan.


Who cares, I don't like either one. If I want to learn grappling, it would be either wrestling or BJJ. The action starts AFTER they are on the ground. Shooting is a lot more effective than all the throws in Judo that pull the opponent in, turn and throw. It just take a little practice in resisting and it's going to be hard to throw like Judo.

Look good in show like in the videos because the opponent literally jump up to be thrown. When opponent knows how to resist the throw, it's going to look messy and like tuck of wall.

You do NOT want to turn your back to the opponent to throw!!! Watch out the chokes  from behind!!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Shooting is a lot more effective than all the throws in Judo that pull the opponent in, turn and throw.


I'll take a good throw over shooting any day.  For example shooting in on someone is probably not a good option for you, but a trip or a throw is still very much a viable technique for you.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Who cares, I don't like either one. If I want to learn grappling, it would be either wrestling or BJJ.


But it is wrestling.  Every ancient civ developed the same wrestling.  You can find it all over the place.

The training is all the same.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll take a good throw over shooting any day.  For example shooting in on someone is probably not a good option for you, but a trip or a throw is still very much a viable technique for you.


You learn those before? I did. It's easy to resist that kind of throw.

Of cause you can argue, it's not easy to resist a master. OF CAUSE!!! But against someone that is just ordinary learning for a year or two, it's easy. BUT if you have a few years, even a master is going to find it hard.

I take a shoot over a throw any time of the day.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You learn those before? I did. It's easy to resist that kind of throw.
> 
> Of cause you can argue, it's not easy to resist a master. OF CAUSE!!! But against someone that is just ordinary learning for a year or two, it's easy. BUT if you have a few years, even a master is going to find it hard.
> 
> I take a shoot over a throw any time of the day.


How do you feel about sweeps.

I like sweeps.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> How do you feel about sweeps.
> 
> I like sweeps.


Yes, sweeps are good. Anything that I don't have to turn my back towards the opponent. Sweeps are fast.

It's easier than people think to resist those throws. I can tell you just simple stiff arms will make it a lot harder for him to pull you in to throw you. Even after he turn to try to throw you over the hip, you just sit lower, it will make it very hard for him to pull you over the hip or leg. People that practice a few months of Judo or whatever knows very well how to do it.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> How do you feel about sweeps.
> 
> I like sweeps.


I want to put it in another post because it's important. You don't see this and Judo demonstrate sweeps that often, NOT because it's not effective. It is NOT as pretty.

Believe it or not, when I was learning Judo long time ago, I didn't like sweeps ONLY because it's not as fancy as those throws.

But sweeps are actually very useful. You can actually end a fight without hurting anyone(best case) by just sweep the leg, drop the guy and that's the end of it. Now I appreciate sweeps.

Same as shoot, trip to make the guy fell backwards, it's nothing pretty about it, but it's so much harder to defend. I know, CMA guys don't like it, it looks dirty.

AND the best way to defend a shoot is SPRAW!!, looks ugly, but since the early 2000 when they discover the Spraw, it really ended the dominance of shoot and take down. Now you don't see people shoot that much because everyone learn Spraw.

Spraw is so ugly, jumping back, straight leg far apart anchor to the ground to resist the push from the shoot. Might be it's too ugly for some people to learn!!!


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yes they're not a new thing. The original Videos i posted showed some dancing aerobics. Like mc Hammer 🤣
> Same pants too


I still like catching fish in the river.


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## geezer (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I still like catching fish in the river.





Alan0354 said:


> AND the best way to defend a shoot is* SPRAW!!,* looks ugly, but since the early 2000 when they discover the Spraw, it really ended the dominance of shoot and take down. Now you don't see people shoot that much because everyone learn Spraw.


Alan, of course you speak Chinese ...and also very good English, but not as your native tongue, so allow me to offer a couple of corrections. First, as you see in the previous sentence, the expression is_ "of course",_ not _"of cause"_. The second correction is more relevant. The term you want to use is _"sprawl"_ not _"spraw"._

The sprawl was not "discovered" in 2000. It has been around forever, probably for thousands of years. I started wrestling as a kid way back in the mid 1960s and it was the most fundamental shoot defense back then ...and one thing my old, arthritic body can still do today. But good shooters can often set a guy up and beat the sprawl. That's another thing that's been true forever!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Sprawling has been around for hundreds of millions of years.

Animals that grapple sprawl naturally.  Whoever saw a tiger take another tigers legs out?  Nope they meet head to head, whatever level.

That's a key element of tiger Kung fu.  Enemy goes low, you lower, with claws out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll take a good throw over shooting any day.


Let's compare shooting (single leg, or double legs) and face to face throw (foot sweep, front cut, inner hook, outer hook, leg spring, ...).

When you shoot, 

- Your opponent has 2 free arms.
- Your head is fully exposed for punching.

When you use face to face throw,

- You use your arms to deal with your opponent's arms (your opponent doesn't have free arms). You then use one of your leg to deal with one of your opponent's legs.
- Your head is not exposed for punching.

In the following "inner hook" example, you use 

- left hand to control your opponent's right arm.
- right hand to push on his neck (this will block his left arm attack).
- right leg to hook your opponent's left leg.

When you apply this throw, you will have less chance to be punched on your head than when you shoot.


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## Steve (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Sprawling has been around for hundreds of millions of years.
> 
> Animals that grapple sprawl naturally.  Whoever saw a tiger take another tigers legs out?  Nope they meet head to head, whatever level.
> 
> That's a key element of tiger Kung fu.  Enemy goes low, you lower, with claws out.


I don’t think you are talking about the same thing. Can you show me what you mean by tigers sprawling?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

geezer said:


> Alan, of course you speak Chinese ...and also very good English, but not as your native tongue, so allow me to offer a couple of corrections. First, as you see in the previous sentence, the expression is_ "of course",_ not _"of cause"_. The second correction is more relevant. The term you want to use is _"sprawl"_ not _"spraw"._
> 
> The sprawl was not "discovered" in 2000. It has been around forever, probably for thousands of years. I started wrestling as a kid way back in the mid 1960s and it was the most fundamental shoot defense back then ...and one thing my old, arthritic body can still do today. But good shooters can often set a guy up and beat the sprawl. That's another thing that's been true forever!


That's the most effective way, why nobody talk about it here? All the fancy foot work and all that. Nothing effective like Spraw. Not fancy enough? Too ugly?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's compare shooting (single leg, or double legs) and face to face throw (foot sweep, front cut, inner hook, outer hook, leg spring, ...).
> 
> When you shoot,
> 
> ...


How come all the TMA got killed pretty much by shoot in UFC back in the days? I doubt they can defend that today. Maybe on paper or demonstration like in the video.

The problem is you cannot generate force when you are being pushed backwards. *They literally take a hit from you and you're dead next*. This is NOT touch sparring!!!

You have to get into the octagon to proof that!!!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Steve said:


> I don’t think you are talking about the same thing. Can you show me what you mean by tigers sprawling?


Tigers are masters at hitting the mat fast.  You can find all sorts of level changing in tiger combat. 

In single leg defense as an example, you drop and sprawl, you're doing what a tiger does, dropping your weight and using your hind legs to brace yourself using your hands as guard, with grips.

Looking for a good pic of actual tigers doing this, but they do.  Being spammed with Detroit Tigers "clinch" news.  Internet.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Tigers even do north South sometimes.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Tigers even do north South sometimes.
> 
> View attachment 29067


Sometimes, human like to do N S too!!! 😂


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Sort of getting there...google spam.  lots of high school wrestling teams named the Tigers, obviously.  Some even use mascots with these poses.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You learn those before? I did. It's easy to resist that kind of throw.


Yes.  If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off.   Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it.  It's like everything else.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes.  If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off.   Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it.  It's like everything else.


Well, I am still waiting for your video with the MMA guy. Show us how you do it. It should be easy.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes. If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off. Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it. It's like everything else.


Yes.  Power, speed, and technique will not be effective if the timing is not there.  And it's one of the more difficult skills to cultivate.  Power, speed and technique can be practiced solo.  Timing is harder to get down as you have to integrate yourself into an opponent's movement and even intention.  Experience and a clear mind are needed to really develop good timing.  I've found that timing is the _first_ thing to go when you have a long layoff from sparring.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I've found that timing is the _first_ thing to go when you have a long layoff from sparring.


That was my biggest whine when I got back into sparring.  Everything going was off big time.  It was really depressing.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, I am still waiting for your video with the MMA guy. Show us how you do it. It should be easy.


Concept is easy. Answer is easy.  Getting the required led strength and endurance is not easy.  It's one of my hardest workouts.  Nothing easy about that but I'll be stronger because of it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's easy to resist that kind of throw.


This is why one has to learn throw (and joint lock) in pairs - 2 throws (or 2 locks) in opposite directions.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Concept is easy. Answer is easy.  Getting the required led strength and endurance is not easy.  It's one of my hardest workouts.  Nothing easy about that but I'll be stronger because of it.


Yes, talk is easy, so far, nobody did it that well. So there comes time to say it doesn't work. There are ways that works, so it's better forget the theoretical way, and go for the practical way.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why one has to learn throw (and joint lock) in pairs - 2 throws (or 2 locks) in opposite directions.


Of cause, that's so basic, you do NOT do it alone!!! Been there, done that.

Simple shoot is so much more effective, no talk is necessary, just have the opponent on his back and ground and pound. Forget the talk.

BTW, NOBODY got knock out from shooting that I have seen* all these years* in UFC, nobody I know of that managed to land anything meaningful when they are being shot. That include the days where there was *no rule against hitting on the neck and back of the head in the Octagon *in the early days.

Maybe you can get into the octagon to be the first one to KO someone when they shoot. Just tell them you are CMA, they will shoot you.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

To me, it's very simple. All the timing and technique, The ONLY one limiting factor is SPEED and REACTION TIME.  There is a limit on how fast a human can react to a signal, some people are faster, but still there is an UPPER LIMIT. Beyond that, it is just NOT POSSIBLE to improve.

So if the opponent attack you at speed you cannot react on time, no matter how hard you practice, you are NOT going to get the timing. So it's just better to find other ways than just blaming on timing.

Shooting is simple, one step move, it's fast. Those Judo or whatever you call throws are multi-steps. You first pull the person in, then you turn your own body, and then pull the person over your own hip or leg to throw him down. THIS IS SLOW. There is time to react and it's easy to resist. SHOOT is so fast, your head quickly bury into the person's lap to make it hard to hit the head and neck. The back can take a lot of abuse. You only have a split second to make one hit before you are flat on your back already!!!

All these years, I saw ONE person did a Judo throw in the Octagon, he was an expert in Judo. I've seen so many shoots. There is good reason people doing that. Base on history, shoot is the most effective take down technique. It's just NOT PRETTY.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yes.  If it's easy for you opponent to resist then your timing is off.   Throw people when they least expect it or when they are least able to prevent it.  It's like everything else.


In Judo this is important. Unbalancing & setting up the throw


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> BTW, NOBODY got knock out from shooting that I have seen* all these years* in UFC, nobody I know of that managed to land anything meaningful when they are being shot.


It has happened, more than once. It’s just difficult to properly time a knockout shot on someone who is doing a proper shot. So most fighters do the smart thing and defend the shot first.

Some of the KO’s in this video occurred as the fighter was starting in for a shot. (For example at 1:02 and at 4:30.)







Alan0354 said:


> All these years, I saw ONE person did a Judo throw in the Octagon, he was an expert in Judo.


There have been a lot of people who have successfully executed Judo throws in high level MMA.







Alan0354 said:


> I've seen so many shoots. There is good reason people doing that. Base on history, shoot is the most effective take down technique.


You are correct that shooting for double and single leg takedowns is higher percentage in MMA than big “Judo style” throws. I suspect we’d see a higher percentage of the Judo style throws if fighters wore clothing on their upper body which could be grabbed. Having a jacket to hold on to makes those throws easier to execute. Either way, there is a time and a place for both kinds of technique. I actually have a higher success rate with Judo takedowns than shots when I do MMA sparring, but that’s because I’m old and don’t have the explosive speed that you want for a good shot. It’s easier for me to get a clinch and work from there. If I was a young competitive athlete, I’d probably do a lot more shots.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll take a good throw over shooting any day.  For example shooting in on someone is probably not a good option for you, but a trip or a throw is still very much a viable technique for you.



On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Tigers are masters at hitting the mat fast.  You can find all sorts of level changing in tiger combat.
> 
> In single leg defense as an example, you drop and sprawl, you're doing what a tiger does, dropping your weight and using your hind legs to brace yourself using your hands as guard, with grips.
> 
> ...



I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it. This is why if you view the Gracie in action tapes, or even the first UFC, you see people getting taken down rather easily by the Gracie's sloppy DLTs over and over again.

As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.


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## frank raud (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yes, sweeps are good. Anything that I don't have to turn my back towards the opponent. Sweeps are fast.
> 
> It's easier than people think to resist those throws. I can tell you just simple stiff arms will make it a lot harder for him to pull you in to throw you. Even after he turn to try to throw you over the hip, you just sit lower, it will make it very hard for him to pull you over the hip or leg. People that practice a few months of Judo or whatever knows very well how to do it.


and yet, millions of people all around the world manage to throw people whether the stiff arm them or not. It almost like they were taught proper judo.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Printe


Alan0354 said:


> Yes, talk is easy, so far, nobody did it that well.


Surprisingly most striking TMA practitioners don't think that fighting in a low stance is realistic.  Well it's a surprise until you see that most TMA schools are striking focused with very little to know serious grappling training.  This means that the low stance is of no use to them in the context of striking. But when you look at grappling schools, it's the high stance that is useless.  

I've talked to some teachers and they agree with you that the low stance is useless, but that's only because they are trying to use it for striking and not for grappling.  The low horse stance is the only low stance that I know that allows a person to strike and kick from.

If you want to have good options for punching, kicking, and good grappling defense, then that is going to be the optimum position to be in, The practitioner's fighting stance should be a mid level stance.  Grappling stance should be a low stance. This way when Kung Fu says "drop stance" it actually works.  Dropping from high stance to low stance takes longer than dropping from mid level to low level stance.

You'll see a lot of Kung Fu people try to drop from high to low and still get caught.  It just takes too long.  There are exceptions to this but for the most part, this is going to be the issue.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> So there comes time to say it doesn't work. There are ways that works, so it's better forget the theoretical way, and go for the practical way.


I won't be saying this, especially since I've had good success with it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> In Judo this is important. Unbalancing & setting up the throw


Not sure what the sound was saying, but from the what I saw I liked it lol.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> So most fighters do the smart thing and defend the shot first.


That's what I always tell students.  Address the grappling first then strike.  Better to stall the shoot then strike, then to strike and miss. The flying knee is a good option because it removes what the grappler is aiming for and replaces it with the knee.  No aiming necessary but the flying knee in general is an advance skill.  It's one of the hardest things student have trouble with.  




Tony Dismukes said:


> There have been a lot of people who have successfully executed Judo throws in high level MMA.


@0:30.  That happened to me this year.  I was trying to take my sparring partner's back and he threw me.  I forgot that he knew how to throw people and I positioned myself for a good throw which he was able to get.  This was in light sparring.  I didn't try to fight it because he had the timing right so I just went for a ride.  In that situation he didn't turn his back to me.  I was creeping around to take his back and he caught on and threw me.   He reminded me that there are more ways to put someone on the ground other than the shoot. The clinch is full of opportunities for a throw.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it.


Not many.  Most focus on striking and because they go Style A vs Style A.  They usually end up training against low quality grappling and walk-troughs.  The best option is to just partner with a school that grapples and tell them to just come at them.  In my opinion the best grappling to train against is from someone who does striking and grappling.  This means that the grappling is often set up off of punching and kicking.  With my last teacher the sprawl lesson was a one day event and I never saw another lesson from it.



Hanzou said:


> As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.


This will cause problems in effectiveness because the context and approach will always be focuses on Style A vs Style A.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> In my opinion the best grappling to train against is from someone who does striking and grappling.  This means that the grappling is often set up off of punching and kicking.


I disagree. Go to the people who do DLTs (and sprawls) the best: Wrestlers. If you can stuff a D1 wrestler's DLT, you're in good shape.



JowGaWolf said:


> This will cause problems in effectiveness because the context and approach will always be focuses on Style A vs Style A.



Nothing wrong with seeing how SJ stacks up to other grappling systems, and seeing what other grappling systems can learn from SJ. We don't see that too often because SJ practitioners don't really operate outside their zone. This is happening with Judo as well, and it's disappointing.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That happened to me this year. I was trying to take my sparring partner's back and he threw me. I forgot that he knew how to throw people and I positioned myself for a good throw which he was able to get.


Same here. I had a new sparring partner whose Judo was much better than I realized. I took his back and had only a split second to realize that I'd been suckered before I went flying. We were sparring no-gi and I rarely run into people who are that good at hitting the shoulder throw without a jacket to grab onto.

It was a good lesson though. After that I remembered to always make sure my hips were lower than my opponent's whenever I went go for the back.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.


So true.

And get this, I'm watching The Terminator last night to fall asleep, and never noticed til now, that Arnold (or his stunt double) gets taken down by Rick Rossovich (or his stunt double) with a flawless double leg in that bedroom screen.

Of course, Rick immediately dies, but the TD worked. It got me thinking, what kind of takedown might work on a humanoid hunter killer robot, and found myself agreeing, it'd have to be a double leg.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Nothing wrong with seeing how SJ stacks up to other grappling systems, and seeing what other grappling systems can learn from SJ. We don't see that too often because SJ practitioners don't really operate outside their zone. This is happening with Judo as well, and it's disappointing.


Honestly I think the best place to see Shuai Jiao technique in a more diverse environment is in San shou (where if you look you will even find double leg takedowns at the high level). 

In fact San Shou fighters have a wide range of wrestling backgrounds, so thats where SJ really gets to mix with judo, BJJ, sambo etc.

SJ like you said, is like Judo, a lot of those guys stuck to their ruleset and are not full contact mixed martial artists.  But there are SJ guys that also fight ammy and pro.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

Also, Hanzou this thread and your avatar got me thinking about one of the greatest pro wrestlers of all time.

Anybody else know who I mean?  Here's a clue.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Honestly I think the best place to see Shuai Jiao technique in a more diverse environment is in San shou (where if you look you will even find double leg takedowns at the high level).
> 
> In fact San Shou fighters have a wide range of wrestling backgrounds, so thats where SJ really gets to mix with judo, BJJ, sambo etc.
> 
> SJ like you said, is like Judo, a lot of those guys stuck to their ruleset and are not full contact mixed martial artists.  But there are SJ guys that also fight ammy and pro.



I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.


San Shou fighters with BJJ and other ground training are pretty awesome.  I know quite a few personally.  The common factor is these are people who don't mind learning all sorts of standing and ground sparring.  It's all good.

If they really want to mix both, they bring it to an MMA gym/comp.  If they want to be Kung Fu Gentlepeople, they go to a San Shou tourney.

There's a rule set for everybody nowadays.  That's how I spot fake martial arts.  They have no rule set.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.


I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.

It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.
> 
> It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.


Well, there is _one_ better defense.

Don't be there.

That my friend is one of the funniest things to see, a shoot that misses the target.  And a blown shoot is an opportunity, not an obstacle.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I believe the issue is that while animals were sprawling when "grappling" with each other, *many martial arts didn't teach their students how to do it*. This is why if you view the Gracie in action tapes, or even the first UFC, you see people getting taken down rather easily by the Gracie's sloppy DLTs over and over again.


It's too ugly, there's no grace. That's no no for a lot of those style. Seems like they rather get their butt kick than to stood that low to spraw.



Hanzou said:


> As for Shiao Jiao (sp?) I would love to see more of it in a cross-grappling environment versus (western) Wrestling, Judo or BJJ. Unfortunately, I only tend to see it in a vacuum, which is rather odd in the current martial environment.


I am surprised too, I thought 30 years after Gracie completely whooped their butt, they would be humble and learn.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 10, 2022)

*outstanding posts Gentlemen ! *


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am glad someone actually know this to support my assertion. I just base on watching the UFC fights. So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.
> 
> It is easy to sit back and talk here, that you can do this, do that. Then blame on timing. They keep practice and practice, problem is there is limitation of reaction time and speed if the move is too complicate.



What's worse is that it isn't something you can dedicate a class or two towards and call it a wrap. You need to spend time both learning it, and defending against it.  The technique is THAT devastating to stand up fighting.

Further, the DLT has evolved with grappling and fighting in general, so those sloppy DLTs from the 90s are nothing compared to the crisp combination leg attacks I'm currently seeing in MMA and competitive grappling.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.


Because a wider stance  will made the double leg significantly more difficult to pull off.  You can only retreat as far as your rear leg.  If your rear leg is still in danger when you step back with your lead leg then your feet are too close together and you are at risk of being the victim of a double take down.  This is why I teach students not to put more than one leg in danger and to use a longer stance.  If the stance is low.  Stance height will also affect the placement of the feet.  The taller you stand the closer your feet will be.  The lower your stance the further apart they will be.  The only exception to this are the low stances that we see BJJ and Judo practitioners in non striking competition.  For example like this.  The only issue with this is that you wouldn't stand like this in front of someone who has good kicks and punches.





This guy talks about the same thing I've been talking about for years, which is to take that mid level stance and go between mid level and low level as needed.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> On what planet does this logic originate from? The double leg takedown is easily one of the most effective takedowns in wrestling or martial arts period. Which is why it was banned in Judo competition, because it pretty much negated the entire stand up curriculum.


I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> What's worse is that it isn't something you can dedicate a class or two towards and call it a wrap. You need to spend time both learning it, and defending against it.  The technique is THAT devastating to stand up fighting.
> 
> Further, the DLT has evolved with grappling and fighting in general, so those sloppy DLTs from the 90s are nothing compared to the crisp combination leg attacks I'm currently seeing in MMA and competitive grappling.


Oh yeh, look at Royce Gracie got destroyed by Matt Huges over 10 years ago. it was pitiful. 

In the modern days with videos to study, MA is moving at warp speed. Anyone that doesn't evolve along will be destroyed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I disagree. Go to the people who do DLTs (and sprawls) the best: Wrestlers. If you can stuff a D1 wrestler's DLT, you're in good shape.


I would still want to train against someone who has both good striking and good grappling.  If I'm going to improve my kung fu skills then I don't want to spar against someone who only does grappling.  I want to spar against someone who does punching and grappling .  MMA does both striking and grappling.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.


Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.

If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience. Find one train as long as you.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.


Really dude?  How many times have I've been saying that I spar with an MMA guy at the Gym. That guy is in his mid 20's.  What are you even talking about?  I said I would like to spar with some of you guys so you can see first hand.  I didn't say I wanted to beat you up.  How many times have I said in this place I spar to learn.. Geeezz..

by the way if you are going to live by "Talk is cheap" then that's a two way street.  Age is no excuse or reason for those who follow that rule.  I used to know some old dudes who used to say that same stuff but would never apply it to themselves.  Point is.  If you aren't willing to follow your own rule then maybe it shouldn't be a rule.  Don't ask of others what you yourself aren't willing or able to do.  



Alan0354 said:


> If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience.


Again. The guy that I spar with has done competitive MMA fights  He trains BJJ, Muay Thai, and TKD.  The only reason I do as much ground fighting with him is because I told him I will continue as long as I can so that he can work his techniques.  I told him I wanted him to get some use of the training beyond striking because I know he enjoys grappling.   He's around 25 years old and has a little more than 10 years of Martial Arts experience.  His endurance is better than mine and he's stronger than me.  But none of that has anything to do with me wanting you guys to experience the same thing. 

The things that I talk about can be shown without knocking heads off,  One doesn't not need to strike or be struck to see or identify when they can or can't apply a technique.  Anyone who can't tell that should spar more often.  If they are too old to start sparring then they should have a little more belief in those who train or share videos of them training.   If you still don't want to believe people then that's a totally different issue and probably doesn't have anything to do with Martial Arts.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Go spar with the MMA people. It's so easy to pick on the old and weak.
> 
> If one day you can beat the guy, find one a little better. Find someone at your level of MMA, not someone that only has like 2 or 3 years experience. Find one train as long as you.


You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who picked that up.  Maybe the "the weak" comment coming from a guy who has let the group know on more than one occasion of how strong he is, was a joke as well.  If so  I would appreciate an indication of that lol.    It is what it is I guess.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You say this a lot, to people on here who do fight or have fought, and have told you that. You seem to ignore this for some reason, and keep using it as your ace in the hole, while not doing the same yourself. I don't think you realize how ridiculous the argument comes off when we consider who it's coming from/being said to.


So you said if I am not good, then I don't qualify to talk even though it is SO OBVIOUS in the last 30 years who is kicking who's butt? One has to be BLIND not to see it.

The problem is people here think in order to criticize, one has to know. I totally disagree. This is not hear say, watch tv, UFC every week showing. Youtube. I am sure as IGNORANT as me, I can see who is kicking who's butt.

*This is just a way with shut people up to state the obvious.*

I am sure you guys can win the argument here. BUT how about in the Octagon?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> So you said if I am not good, then I don't qualify to talk even though it is SO OBVIOUS in the last 30 years who is kicking who's butt? One has to be BLIND not to see it.


I did not say that at all. I made no comments that you are not qualified to talk about anything, and have not stated you are not good. Simply that you have not fit the criteria you are stating others need, despite them fitting that same criteria. 


Alan0354 said:


> The problem is people here think in order to criticize, one has to know. I totally disagree. This is not hear say, watch tv, UFC every week showing. Youtube. I am sure as IGNORANT as me, I can see who is kicking who's butt.


Again, not what I said. Closer to what you claim. 


Alan0354 said:


> *This is just a way with shut people up to state the obvious.*


You are the one who tries to shut others up with this argument. Constantly. 


Alan0354 said:


> I am sure you guys can win the argument here. BUT how about in the Octagon?


Do you mean as professional fighters, at the top level of UFC? If so, to my knowledge we don't have those here at all, currently. So if that's what's needed to discuss, none of us should be on this forum and we should just close it. Do you mean having people fight cross-discipline or in MMA/cross-discipline style bouts, to test what's stated? If so, plenty of people have done just that, including those you tell to do that.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Do you mean having people fight cross-discipline or in MMA/cross-discipline style bouts, to test what's stated? If so, plenty of people have done just that, including those you tell to do that.


Yes, what is the result when fighting those that has the same level of training. Meaning fighting MMA trained people of equal experty. Of cause, I don't mean just go into professional fight, they won't let you. Also if one has been in TMA for decades, DO NOT go pick on a MMA that only has 2 or 3 years of training. It has to be of same level.

Speaking of that, how come nobody in TMA manage to fight professionally in the octagon since the first few UFC? Yes, I know, some claimed to be TMA and fought before, BUT they fought like others, NOT their own discipline. Meaning in another words, you can't tell what style when they are in the octagon.

For ignorant people like me, I can only based on who's winning. That's one thing good about fighting, only one can win.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I love San Shou, but the lack of ground fighting kills it for me.


If you are used to watch MMA, you may feel silly to watch boxing game.

I love

- boxing, but the lack of kick.
- kickboxing, but the lack of throw.
- San Shou, but the lack of ground game.
- MMA, but the lack of weapon fight.

IMO, the correct MA training path should be:

boxing -> kickboxing -> San Shou -> MMA -> traditional weapon fight -> modern weapon fight


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are used to watch MMA, you may feel silly to watch boxing game.
> 
> I love
> 
> ...



San Shou is considered a form of MMA. However, the lack of ground fighting eliminates an entire part of MMA fighting, and leaves me wanting more.

Boxing and kickboxing aren’t considered MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 10, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> San Shou is considered a form of MMA.


I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines.  San Shou doesn't fit that.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines.  San Shou doesn't fit that.



Originally yes. However nowadays, there’s definitely a MMA style. Sure, some fighters favor some aspects of the style more than others, but in general, fighters in UFC, One, Bellator, etc. are all using the same general style. If UFC banned ground fighting, it’d look like San Shou as well.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 10, 2022)

I thought MMA is just adapting anything that is proven useful. Like they use boxing hands a lot, TKD kicks, Muy Thai(which similar to boxing hands and some TKD kicks) elbows and knees. Then BJJ and wrestling ground game. They even use the Wing Chung front step kicks to the knee.

To me MMA is literally *M*ixed *M*arshall *A*rts in the true sense. That it pick all the moves that proofed effective from different styles and mix in.

In fact, I notice the MMA stance is half way between boxing narrow stance and the deep stance. Feet are a little over 2ft apart. Close enough to dance like boxing, but far enough so it can take a much wider step to cover more distance. It has the speed of boxing dancing, but can step bigger steps to move faster.

MMA constantly changing and improving. I can watch an UFC fight and kind of know what year it's recorded. It's constantly improving because they do NOT have all the tradition, believes and pride to get in the way. If one day, one particular style go into the octagon and whoop a few butts, you bet MMA will style will change without resistance that you see in other styles. their goal is to be the best.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 10, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought Mixed Martial Arts was because you fight against different disciplines.  San Shou doesn't fit that.


San Shou the modern combat sport is a mix of lots of styles.  There are a huge number of styles represented, going back hundreds of years, and multiple countries.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 10, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> San Shou the modern combat sport is a mix of lots of styles.  There are a huge number of styles represented, going back hundreds of years, and multiple countries.


I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because a wider stance  will made the double leg significantly more difficult to pull off.  You can only retreat as far as your rear leg.  If your rear leg is still in danger when you step back with your lead leg then your feet are too close together and you are at risk of being the victim of a double take down.  This is why I teach students not to put more than one leg in danger and to use a longer stance.  If the stance is low.  Stance height will also affect the placement of the feet.  The taller you stand the closer your feet will be.  The lower your stance the further apart they will be.  The only exception to this are the low stances that we see BJJ and Judo practitioners in non striking competition.  For example like this.  The only issue with this is that you wouldn't stand like this in front of someone who has good kicks and punches.
> View attachment 29077
> 
> This guy talks about the same thing I've been talking about for years, which is to take that mid level stance and go between mid level and low level as needed.



Well that's the thing, you wouldn't go for a DLT if someone has a wide stance like that. That wide stance opens you up for leg attacks outside of DLTs. In fact the page where you got one of those images from discusses takedowns that you can use against such stances.



> I wish some of you guys could spar with me so I can show you first hand.



No, I get what you're saying, but utilizing a wide, deep stance for an extended period of time to avoid a DLT is an inefficient way to prevent takedowns. Doing that sets you up for vulnerabilities elsewhere, and when you exit that stance to deal with those other weaknesses, the DLT chance opens up again. The sprawl is an infinitely better counter, because your opponent has committed to the takedown and is wide open to a variety of attacks.

BTW, I do agree w/you that (reputable) MMA would be a good place to learn striking combinations into grappling.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Doing that sets you up for vulnerabilities elsewhere, and when you exit that stance to deal with those other weaknesses,


Those risks and vulnerabilities are manageable.  Me being on the ground is a much bigger vulnerability.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Those risks and vulnerabilities are manageable.  Me being on the ground is a much bigger vulnerability.



Manageable in what way? Getting hit with a single leg while in a wide stance is just as bad as getting hit with a double leg in a narrow stance. Maybe even worse because the single leg can set up leg locks.

Also you won’t be all that vulnerable on the ground if you learned the guard.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.


why do you think this type of wrestling is not so wide spread in the west?, at least not so in Europe? I see other chinese styles like Wing Tsun or Choy Lay Fut  but not this type of wrestling


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.





not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> So far, the only effective defense of shoot is spraw. It's ugly like a duck, but that really neutralize a lot of the shoot.


The sprawl is one of the most important and effective counters for a wrestling shot, but it is far from the only one. Other options include:

Distance management - making it hard for the opponent to ever get the opportunity to start a good shot
Changing level, coupled with frames and/or underhooks
Hand fighting to shut down opportunities for the shot
Evading the shot by cutting an angle, frequently combined with frames and/or level changes
Snapping down the opponent's head (can be combined with a sprawl)
Catching a kimura grip, which can be used for a reversal, submission, or forcing the opponent into defensive mode
Guillotine choke
Catching the opponent with a knee or uppercut on the way in. This is risky, but can be devastating when it works.
Of course, there are offensive counters for all these defenses, including the sprawl. And there are defensive counters to the counters. It's a deep, deep area of study.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't like the San Shou 3 seconds clinching time limitation. If you can't take your opponent down within 3 seconds, the referee will separate both fighters. This is why the ACSCA comes up the combat SC rule which is the same as the San Shou rule but without that 3 seconds limitation.


It's not always 3 seconds.  In Lei Tai formats it's often up to the ref, competitors will grapple a lot longer as long as something is going on and they're not just hugging each other.  If somebody turns their back to attempt a throw and it fails, and the other guy just bear hugs, that's a good case for splitting them up and you'll see that sometimes.  It's not pro wrestling lol.

And there's no time limit in sparring, I've seen some pretty serious Sanda clinchfighting.  If it were to go to the ground all the time, it might actually get a bit boring.  I started to feel the same way about UFC until they started getting back into the solid strike game, after that brief love affair with GJJ.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 11, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The sprawl is one of the most important and effective counters for a wrestling shot, but it is far from the only one. Other options include:
> 
> Distance management - making it hard for the opponent to ever get the opportunity to start a good shot
> Changing level, coupled with frames and/or underhooks
> ...


I was trying to remember what I forgot to list ...

Hip check
... is another important one.

If your opponent is wearing a jacket, then countering with an uchimata can also be done sometimes, but you're less likely to see that in MMA.


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## geezer (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.
> 
> not saying with the video all these KO´s are Choy Lay Fut...


Off topic or not, I liked the video you posted linking of CLF with other types of fighters using similar whipping power to devastating effect. This is the counterpoint to Wing Chun's straight lines. CLF also has straight lines ....and WC has some circles ...sorta like the white dot in the black, and black dot in the white of the Yin-Yang symbol I guess.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

geezer said:


> Off topic or not, I liked the video you posted linking of CLF with other types of fighters using similar whipping power to devastating effect. This is the counterpoint to Wing Chun's straight lines. CLF also has straight lines ....and WC has some circles ...sorta like the white dot in the black, and black dot in the white of the Yin-Yang symbol I guess.


Yeah I tried CLF years ago..just didn't like the teacher much. Being honest I like WT better. Just suits me better.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's the thing, you wouldn't go for a DLT if someone has a wide stance like that. That wide stance opens you up for leg attacks outside of DLTs. In fact the page where you got one of those images from discusses takedowns that you can use against such stances.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wide stance is not mobile. MMA adapted a middle of the road stance with feet a little over 2ft apart that get the best of both worlds, still narrow enough to jump around like boxing high stance, low enough to have better resistance to being pushed.

Funny why people so resistance to spraw?!!! It just look so ugly and no grace.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks a lot like circle punch that we talked about before(I think before you join). The idea is similar to TKD RIDGE HAND that I learn before. The difference is TKD use the wrist joint and the part between the index finger and wrist to hit. I practice circle punch for a while and decided to go back to ridge hand to do this wide swing. 

BTW, I looked into this kind of circle punch in slow motion, some people use the second joint of the fingers to hit. I did not know that until JowGaWolf pointed it out and I verified watching in slow motion.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> why do you think this type of wrestling is not so wide spread in the west?, at least not so in Europe? I see other chinese styles like Wing Tsun or Choy Lay Fut  but not this type of wrestling


Because there are not that many SC instructors available. SC is trained in China only by the minority muslim people. I believe there are less than 10 (or 5) SC instructors in US. I cannot even name a single SC instructor in Europe today.

Also most people don't like to be thrown over head.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> is trained in China only by the minority muslim people


Why? Just curious


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Why? Just curious


I believe most muslim SC teachers didn't care about to make SC popular. Also back then (before 100 years), most Chinese muslim teachers didn't like to teach non-muslim students. They would call SC as "minority people self-defense skill".


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe most muslim SC teachers didn't care about to make SC popular. Also back then (before 100 years), most Chinese muslim teachers didn't like to teach non-muslim students. They would call SC as "minority people self-defense skill".


Interesting but I think eventually it'll get out to the West.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Manageable in what way? Getting hit with a single leg while in a wide stance is just as bad as getting hit with a double leg in a narrow stance. Maybe even worse because the single leg can set up leg locks.


Not for me.  I'm comfortable with the single leg defense.  Because of the stance that I take. I can easily punch, knee, kick, or grab anything that is trying to control that front leg.  I can retreat as far as my rear leg and that's a good distance when I'm in a mid level stance..  I can also detect motion much better at that height.  It's not risk free but by reducing the number of targets you can readily attack, I pretty munch know what I have to guard against.  Based on someone my same height.  I can kick my opponent's body because it's much closer to my lead leg than my body is to his his lead leg.  Like my sparring partner learned.  It's a lot of distance to make up.  He has good kicks and he was surprised that it wasn't so easy.  

I thought taking a lower stance in socks would be problematic but I was able to move fast enough.  Not that it matters, I was only able to go in one direction in socks.  Wearing shoes would allow me to to change directions more quickly.  But I'm learning to adjust to not being able to change directions quickly.  It forces me to engage in grappling more than I would if I was wearing shoes.  Good times for me. good challenges to overcome


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Interesting but I think eventually it'll get out to the West.


In the past 40 years, SC in US has been evolved into combat SC (punch + kick + lock + throw).

Here are some "Combat SC" demo clips by my students (and my student's students).


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not for me.  I'm comfortable with the single leg defense.  Because of the stance that I take. I can easily punch, knee, kick, or grab anything that is trying to control that front leg.  I can retreat as far as my rear leg and that's a good distance when I'm in a mid level stance..  I can also detect motion much better at that height.  It's not risk free but by reducing the number of targets you can readily attack, I pretty munch know what I have to guard against.  Based on someone my same height.  I can kick my opponent's body because it's much closer to my lead leg than my body is to his his lead leg.  Like my sparring partner learned.  It's a lot of distance to make up.  He has good kicks and he was surprised that it wasn't so easy.
> 
> I thought taking a lower stance in socks would be problematic but I was able to move fast enough.  Not that it matters, I was only able to go in one direction in socks.  Wearing shoes would allow me to to change directions more quickly.  But I'm learning to adjust to not being able to change directions quickly.  It forces me to engage in grappling more than I would if I was wearing shoes.  Good times for me. good challenges to overcome



You can “easily” knee, kick, or grab someone that has control over your front leg to the point that they’ll release your leg?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Good news is that other systems have those punches as well.  They should be controlled punches but you have some MMA guys who are picking up techniques and may understand how to do the technique correctly which often results in the punch throwing them off balance.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> You can “easily” knee, kick, or grab someone that has control over your front leg to the point that they’ll release your leg?


If you are talking about "knee stomp" then nope.  I'm actually in the best position to defend against that.  I used to have people stomp me in knee to prove it.  I told the MMA guy to do it and I think he hurt is foot.  Round house kicks to the knee, I see coming a mile a way. because people show more movement for some reason when their eyes are focused downward.  The only risk that I've encountered so far is being caught shifting weight to my lead leg.  If been timed a few times like that but not many.  I don't consider this a weakness of a stance because it still exists in higher stances.  

There is a Shuai Jiao escapes that works on someone grabbing that front legs.  It fits right with the stance.  I had the MMA guy try one of the the techniques he was planning to get me with, so I tested it with the high stance and the mid level stance. . I let him put it and felt the effect of it.  It was effective against a high stance and I fell each time.   But that some technique doesn't work if my knees are bent significantly.  The technique he was planning only works if the technique can straighten the leg, which in my guess he couldn't do it.  I let him give extreme pressure and it still didn't work I had to make some adjustments to keep the technique ineffective and I did so my cutting my shinbone into his collar bone.  He continued to put more pressure than he would ever be able to use in a real fight and I became concern that he woudl either damage his collar bone or that I will shift in the wrong way and would have a sudden increase of full pressure straightening out my leg.   I also did the Shuai Jiao escape and that thing worked sweet.  It helped me to escape the ankle lock.  The only real concern about that is if I would have the same result with shoes on.   I'm hesitant to try it because I'm afraid that my shoes will cut into his face as I pull it out.  That's the best case scenario.  The worst case scenario is that the shoe helps secure the lock.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you are talking about "knee stomp" then nope.  I'm actually in the best position to defend against that.



No, I'm talking about single-leg takedowns after your opponent has grabbed your leg and started to "run the pipe" or otherwise manipulate your leg and thus your balance.



JowGaWolf said:


> I used to have people stomp me in knee to prove it.  I told the MMA guy to do it and I think he hurt is foot.  Round house kicks to the knee, I see coming a mile a way. because people show more movement for some reason when their eyes are focused downward.  The only risk that I've encountered so far is being caught shifting weight to my lead leg.  If been timed a few times like that but not many.  I don't consider this a weakness of a stance because it still exists in higher stances.
> 
> There is a Shuai Jiao escapes that works on someone grabbing that front legs.  It fits right with the stance.


TBF, there are single-leg shoots that go for that back leg over the front leg in wide stances. Yeah, some guys are that good at it.



JowGaWolf said:


> I had the MMA guy try one of the the techniques he was planning to get me with, so I tested it with the high stance and the mid level stance. . I let him put it and felt the effect of it.  It was effective against a high stance and I fell each time.   But that some technique doesn't work if my knees are bent significantly.  The technique he was planning only works if the technique can straighten the leg, which in my guess he couldn't do it.  I let him give extreme pressure and it still didn't work I had to make some adjustments to keep the technique ineffective and I did so my cutting my shinbone into his collar bone.  He continued to put more pressure than he would ever be able to use in a real fight and I became concern that he woudl either damage his collar bone or that I will shift in the wrong way and would have a sudden increase of full pressure straightening out my leg.   I also did the Shuai Jiao escape and that thing worked sweet.  It helped me to escape the ankle lock.  The only real concern about that is if I would have the same result with shoes on.   I'm hesitant to try it because I'm afraid that my shoes will cut into his face as I pull it out.  That's the best case scenario.  The worst case scenario is that the shoe helps secure the lock.



Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 11, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In the past 40 years, SC in US has been evolved into combat SC (punch + kick + lock + throw).
> 
> Here are some "Combat SC" demo clips by my students (and my student's students).


Complete with Mortal Kombat remix.  Love this.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> No, I'm talking about single-leg takedowns after your opponent has grabbed your leg and started to "run the pipe" or otherwise manipulate your leg and thus your balance.


Having sparred in this stance before, I have seen it as you describe.  It's a much longer distance to cover, even my MMA sparring partner was amazed at how the low stance made "the usual" more difficult to pull off.  I know he's been thinking about finding a weakness., eventually he will find out what I already know.  "Kick the lead lead to disrupt the balance."  Once my body fights to regain balance, it will forget about all other defenses.



Hanzou said:


> TBF, there are single-leg shoots that go for that back leg over the front leg in wide stances. Yeah, some guys are that good at it.


Yes there are some that are good at it, but even so it is still a much greater distance to close than you realize.  That's why my MMA sparring partner was surprised, he wasn't expecting the distance to be as big.  I still haven't done full sparring with it meaning I haven't attacked while in the stance.  I just did defense, while my sparring partner could use what ever he wanted.  Who knows may the story will be different time we go at it.  I'll probably just defend again because right now I just care about my legs lasting.  I will be satisfied when I can stay in that low stance and move around in it for 5 minutes. without my legs tiring.  I have big mountain to climb but I think it's possible.  I also know that my sparring partner will be brainstorming on how to break down that  stance.  i like that he tries to figure things out instead of brute forcing it.  That means he can change on the fly and it also means that my earlier success will be more difficult to repeat.  Which is part of the reason why I don't want to get into my offensive tactics when in a low stance.  




Hanzou said:


> Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here.


It's the exercise at 0:36  Drawing leg and   Basin leg at 0:50 are the ones I practice.  





This is the Explanation of Drawing leg.  I do the crappy version of this. I have  no flexibility at all for this so I'm just taking my time with it.  No rush.


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## Hanzou (Oct 11, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Having sparred in this stance before, I have seen it as you describe.  It's a much longer distance to cover, even my MMA sparring partner was amazed at how the low stance made "the usual" more difficult to pull off.  I know he's been thinking about finding a weakness., eventually he will find out what I already know.  "Kick the lead lead to disrupt the balance."  Once my body fights to regain balance, it will forget about all other defenses.





JowGaWolf said:


> Yes there are some that are good at it, but even so it is still a much greater distance to close than you realize.  That's why my MMA sparring partner was surprised, he wasn't expecting the distance to be as big.  I still haven't done full sparring with it meaning I haven't attacked while in the stance.  I just did defense, while my sparring partner could use what ever he wanted.  Who knows may the story will be different time we go at it.  I'll probably just defend again because right now I just care about my legs lasting.  I will be satisfied when I can stay in that low stance and move around in it for 5 minutes. without my legs tiring.  I have big mountain to climb but I think it's possible.  I also know that my sparring partner will be brainstorming on how to break down that  stance.  i like that he tries to figure things out instead of brute forcing it.  That means he can change on the fly and it also means that my earlier success will be more difficult to repeat.  Which is part of the reason why I don't want to get into my offensive tactics when in a low stance.



Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.

No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka. 


JowGaWolf said:


> It's the exercise at 0:36  Drawing leg and   Basin leg at 0:50 are the ones I practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.


Because I could still move out of range . Instead of shuffling backwards I can shuffle left or right.  I'm in the gym now so I'll use part of my break to record the foot work.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2022)

There are so many games that you can play when your opponent gets you in single leg. First you extend your leg between your opponent's legs. This will connect your body with your opponent's body.

If your opponent moves his 

- right leg (his weight is on left leg), you attack his left leg.
- left leg (his weight is on right leg), you attack his right leg.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.
> 
> No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.
> 
> ...


I am glad you said what I've been saying over and over BUT BETTER than me in the technical way I cannot get into, even though it's so obvious that a child can see. 30 years after Gracie.................


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques.


I spar to learn so why what benefit does it serve me to lie about what works or not? Do you lie about what you discover when you are learning and exploring things things that may or may not work?  I'm far from Master Wong. I have no title. I only talk about the things I actually train and experience.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps. With that said, I'd like to see that being used against Judo foot sweeps, and seeing the results.


The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner. I tried it against one of his ankle picks.  In his technique the lock prevents the foot from moving backwards but not upwards. The turning of the foot prevents my toes from getting stuck.  The technique also doesn't work in a tall stance as there is no leverage to pull the leg out.

I can just use cat stance to avoid certain sweeps and trips.  I did some wrestling against some new people tonight.  He tried to step behind me and trip me. I switched to cat stance and his leg flowed under my leg without resistance.  I taught them how to do it tonight and they were able to use it and be successful with it.  No need to use the Draw leg to defend against it


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am glad you said what I've been saying over and over BUT BETTER than me in the technical way I cannot get into, even though it's so obvious that a child can see. 30 years after Gracie.................


It's only because you think that the footwork doesn't work. You don't understand the Footwork.  Even if I show you that it works you will make another excuse and say that my sparring partner is not of good quality.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 11, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Why wouldn't your MMA partner simply circle to your open side and shoot from an angle? Why would he try to directly shoot while facing your lead leg? That doesn't make sense.
> 
> No offense, but this stuff simply reminds me of the Master Wong stuff; Doggedly adhering to traditional methods instead of simply embracing modern methods for modern techniques. It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke. There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.
> 
> ...


Oh about the sweeps. I've already showed a video that in the past.  The person was successful the fist time.  After fist time I was able to neutralize his follow up attempts.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> It's like when people say they can beat the Guard by hitting people in the nuts, or bite their way out of a Triangle Choke.


I've never said such thing about any chokes.



Hanzou said:


> There's a reason we don't see super wide stances in MMA, and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is. The only time I've seen super wide stances employed is when BJJ guys are trying to troll competitors who are clearly advanced Judoka.


I've never said that I use a super wide stance.  Show me where I've said that.   You guys make a lot of assumptions about what I'm talking about.   A low stance does not mean that it has to be a super wide stance.    A low stance simply means you bend your knees more.  It doesn't mean make your stance as wide as possible.

Do you consider this a super wide stance?  



 

If I'm doing a super wide stance then so are these professional MMA fighters.





This is a super wide stance.  You go go back to any of my post and you'll see me talk about low stances, not super wide stances.  



Hanzou said:


> Was there a point in that video where he used it against a single leg takedown? I saw that he used it against foot sweeps, but I wasn't talking about foot sweeps.


You asked me what technique I was using.  I told you.   These are your words "*Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here*."
I gave you an example of the technique I was using.  That is what the MMA guy was trying to do to me.  I've already shown you the technique that used.  






This technique doesn't work on me because of my stance is low and the foot of my lead leg doesn't point north.  You can see in the picture that my lead foot in not pointing north .  I there's no way that he can push the inside of my knee.  




Hanzou said:


> and it's because it isn't as fool proof as you're proclaiming it is.


I never said it was fool proof.  I already told you where the technique is weak and why.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's only because you think that the footwork doesn't work. You don't understand the Footwork.  Even if I show you that it works you will make another excuse and say that my sparring partner is not of good quality.


No, I understand, just there are a *MUCH BETTER* way called* sprawling *that is proven all these years. You just refused to look at it like you said in the past that you want to find something in your style that can do that.

I am still waiting for your video. Are you waiting until you can beat him before you record it? It's been a long time already.


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner.


Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great that you are doing something a little different.  But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky.  To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.  

It's like if I said, "Gay men do X.  I know a lot about this because I have a gay friend."


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No, I understand, just there are a *MUCH BETTER* way called* sprawling *that is proven all these years. You just refused to look at it like you said in the past that you want to find something in your style that can do that.


Once again you make assumptions about things in me.  Sprawling has nothing to do with "finding something in my style."  Sprawling is already in Jow Ga Kung Fu.  The thing about sprawling is that I can't kick or punch from that position.  So if I want to have those options available to me then I'll need to learn more than just sprawling.









Same guy another sprawl


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner.





Steve said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great that you are doing something a little different.  But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky.  To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.
> 
> It's like if I said, "Gay men do X.  I know a lot about this because I have a gay friend."


I agree with Steve here. What you are doing is a great first step for pressure testing and refining your techniques. But it's just a first step. There are a huge range of MMA practitioners with different styles, skill levels, strengths, and weaknesses. They will test you and expose flaws in your movement differently.

I've sparred Kung Fu practitioners and done well. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will do equally well in sparring you.

At some point in your process, it will be helpful to find an environment where you get to spar a wider variety of partners. You'll find that a certain tactic which works reliably against one opponent ends up failing miserably against another. Some MMA gyms are quite good for this and are open to friendly exchanges and testing with practitioners of different background. (Other gyms you should probably avoid.)


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky. To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.


I have had similar experiences with other people I spar with.  Not only with my MMA sparring partner.  I only talk about my MMA sparring partner because that's who I'm sparring with now.  I've sparred against other grapplers and strikers.  This is why I say that I wish I could spar with some of you guys so you can see for yourself.  It probably seems "Janky" because you probably have an inaccuate image of what I'm doing.  You probably think I'm looking like this when I'm sparring, If so then you definitely have the wrong image of what's going on and what I'm doing.




I hear what you are saying but all of this doubt is actually coming from people who don't spar in the same low stance that I spar in.  I don't even know if you guys have even sparred against someone who gets in a low stance like me  (Again.  my stance doesn't look like that guy in the picutre.)  If you haven't sparred against someone who gets into a low stance like me, then how do you know what I'm describing?


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## Steve (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I have had similar experiences with other people I spar with.  Not only with my MMA sparring partner.  I only talk about my MMA sparring partner because that's who I'm sparring with now.  I've sparred against other grapplers and strikers.  This is why I say that I wish I could spar with some of you guys so you can see for yourself.  It probably seems "Janky" because you probably have an inaccuate image of what I'm doing.  You probably think I'm looking like this when I'm sparring, If so then you definitely have the wrong image of what's going on and what I'm doing.
> View attachment 29101
> 
> I hear what you are saying but all of this doubt is actually coming from people who don't spar in the same low stance that I spar in.  I don't even know if you guys have even sparred against someone who gets in a low stance like me  (Again.  my stance doesn't look like that guy in the picutre.)  If you haven't sparred against someone who gets into a low stance like me, then how do you know what I'm describing?


Just to be clear, my comment has nothing really to do with the specific techniques.  Until you have some broader experience, I would recommend just being mindful of the possibility that you don't know what you don't know and are at the 'unconscious incompetence' stage of development.  

Look at it this way.  I would be highly suspicious of similar conclusions being drawn by your MMA sparring partner about kung fu.  I'm pretty sure he's not going back to his MMA pals saying similar things to them.  "Hey guys.  I have a kung fu sparring partner, and everything I ever thought about kung fu is 100% true!"


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## Hanzou (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Because I could still move out of range . Instead of shuffling backwards I can shuffle left or right.  I'm in the gym now so I'll use part of my break to record the foot work.



You can shuffle right or left how exactly? Your stance still has a wide open area regardless of which way you shuffle, and there's no way you can turn quickly enough with that wide of a stance versus someone who is utilizing boxing or wrestling footwork.
You sacrifice mobility for stability, unless we're simply ignoring the laws of physics.



JowGaWolf said:


> The reason I understand it more now because I explored it with my MMA sparring partner. I tried it against one of his ankle picks.  In his technique the lock prevents the foot from moving backwards but not upwards. The turning of the foot prevents my toes from getting stuck.  The technique also doesn't work in a tall stance as there is no leverage to pull the leg out.
> 
> I can just use cat stance to avoid certain sweeps and trips.  I did some wrestling against some new people tonight.  He tried to step behind me and trip me. I switched to cat stance and his leg flowed under my leg without resistance.  I taught them how to do it tonight and they were able to use it and be successful with it.  No need to use the Draw leg to defend against it



When I say SIngle Leg Takedown, I'm talking about this;






And please observe all the different variations.



JowGaWolf said:


> I've never said such thing about any chokes.


It's the exact same type of thinking.



JowGaWolf said:


> I've never said that I use a super wide stance.  Show me where I've said that.   You guys make a lot of assumptions about what I'm talking about.   A low stance does not mean that it has to be a super wide stance.    A low stance simply means you bend your knees more.  It doesn't mean make your stance as wide as possible.
> 
> Do you consider this a super wide stance?
> View attachment 29089
> ...



Those MMA fighters are in motion. The standard MMA stance at rest is not as wide as that or as wide as your stance. Again, it isn't that wide because it sacrifices mobility and is vulnerable to flanking and takedowns. I said "super-wide" because that's how you were describing it, but yes due to those pictures I would not consider your stance "super-wide", however it is very wide for a fighting stance.



JowGaWolf said:


> You asked me what technique I was using.  I told you.   These are your words "*Would you happen to have an example of that SJ technique? I'm very curious to see what you're talking about here*."
> I gave you an example of the technique I was using.  That is what the MMA guy was trying to do to me.  I've already shown you the technique that used.
> 
> 
> ...



Clearly we weren't talking about the same technique. Further, saying a technique "doesn't work on you" is entering Master Wong territory. I respect you and your experience, but saying stuff like that is a big red flag. Again, I think the issue is that you want to find the answers to problems using only Jow Ga. While that is admirable, the simple reality is that all the answers are not in Jow Ga or any singular fighting style.

It reminds me of when the Gracies refused to incorporate leglocks in their system because they said that their system was perfect. Instead of simply learning leglocks and bringing them into GJj, they came up with ridiculous excuses and methodologies on how to beat leglocks, and it was all BS, culmuniating in Royler and Rener Gracie getting demolished by leglockers in competition.

Eventually it became quite clear that they had to learn leglocks or they would rapidly lose students because other groups had started embracing leglocks with rapid speed. Now GJJ gyms incorporate leglocks, and the art and its students are better for it.

Learning to sprawl or the Guard isn't going to break your Jow Ga, it'll make it better.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> here are a huge range of MMA practitioners with different styles, skill levels, strengths, and weaknesses. They will test you and expose flaws in your movement differently.


I can't spar against all MMA guys.  That's not realistic .  I can only tell you who I sparred against the the reactions that they have and the feedback that they tell me..  Some of this stuff I could literally take a tape measure and show some of the the stuff that I've explained.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I've sparred Kung Fu practitioners and done well. That doesn't necessarily mean that I will do equally well in sparring you.


It's not about doing well or not doing well.  It's about what exists and what doesn't exists.  For example.  If I stand in front of you and your fist can touch my face, without moving my feet I can lower my stance and the distance between your fist and my face will increase.  But the distance from my feet to your body will be the same..   If we use the same example, but this time I only leave my lead foot in place and step back with my rear foot, then the distance between your fist and my face increases.  If I lower that stance the distance increases.  


If I stand tall, then I give you more room to shoot underneath my guard.  If I lower my stance then I give you less room to shoot underneath my guard.  
The higher my stance the further away my guard is from my knee and shin.  The lower my stance the closer my guard is to my leg. 
If I stand in a low stance for a long time, that low stance will demand more energy of my legs to maintain the stance.sales.
All of these are true and are independent of anyone's skill level.  The challenges that exists because of this will be the same challenges that everyone has to overcome.  How well a person does in addressing these will determine how much advantage or disadvantage they will have.   
This is where I start my training.  Are there some exceptions to this?  Of course, but those exceptions should be covered as exceptions and not included in general function If you are 6 feet tall and your opponent is the same height, then the above will be true. If you are 6ft and your opponent is 5"7 then it's an exception. I always think of martial art techniques as being applied to someone who is near the same height as their opponent.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can't spar against all MMA guys. That's not realistic . I can only tell you who I sparred against the the reactions that they have and the feedback that they tell me..


Of course. But the more sparring partners you have with different styles and body types, the more confident you can be about your conclusions. I've definitely had multiple occasions where I thought I had a good understanding of what worked in a given situation and then run into a sparring partner who forced me to re-evaluate things.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Steve said:


> Look at it this way. I would be highly suspicious of similar conclusions being drawn by your MMA sparring partner about kung fu. I'm pretty sure he's not going back to his MMA pals saying similar things to them. "Hey guys. I have a kung fu sparring partner, and everything I ever thought about kung fu is 100% true!"


I'm sure he does.  But it's not from the point of view of Kung Fu.  It's from the point of MMA.  I'm also sure he doesn't put it on a scale of 100%.  As much as I gas out in the ground game.  I'm pretty sure he is validated that most Kung Fu students don't grapple to the extent that they do.   I'm also pretty sure no one here will say differently. Or at least have not said differently in past discussion.  The reason I know is because he has already express those views to me directly about the things that he has seen from other in the gym.  Those conversations always start with "I don't want to be that guy."  Then he shares his thoughts.  We are pretty open about thoughts and assumptions that we have about what we do.  

He is more of a "Always test the technique."  I'm more of a "It's not the technique but the user"  We clash a little on that aspect, but are straight forward with the training approach. that we take.  He already knows that I'm exploring the low stance.  We just don't talk in the same manner that you guys do.   When I first told him what I was going to do with the low stance, he was more than willing to put that to the test.   Which is what I want him to do.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Of course. But the more sparring partners you have with different styles and body types, the more confident you can be about your conclusions. I've definitely had multiple occasions where I thought I had a good understanding of what worked in a given situation and then run into a sparring partner who forced me to re-evaluate things.


The challenges will still exist.  Regardless of how many people I spar with.. The only thing that is going to be different is their approach of tearing down the defense and my approach to implementing it. Things like how long to hold the stance, how to keep my legs from burning out.  When to get into the lowstance and when to rise out of it.  All of that doesn't change the challenges, it just changes the application of the stance.   For example,  Do I just stand there in a low stance or move in a low stance.  Either choice is still a low stance application.  But those challenges are still there.  

The phase that I'm at now is the leg strengthening phase I need to be able to stand and move in a low stance for at least 5 minutes without my legs completely failing.  I won't be effective for too long if I can't get to that point with my leg strength,  Right now my only option is to come out of the stance and get into it as needed which is fine, but it's going to be a problem if I get into a clinch while in that low stance.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've never said such thing about any chokes.
> 
> 
> I've never said that I use a super wide stance.  Show me where I've said that.   You guys make a lot of assumptions about what I'm talking about.   A low stance does not mean that it has to be a super wide stance.    A low stance simply means you bend your knees more.  It doesn't mean make your stance as wide as possible.
> ...


Your stance is not low in the picture, the question is how do you move? in MMA, people with this stance jump around like boxing high stance. They are very mobile jumping back and fore. Are you light of the feet like them or just lower stance? You need to show yourself moving to tell how well you are doing it. Can you move fast enough? I've only see you do slow speed demo or still pictures, never any regular speed motion. Speed is everything.

Here is an example:


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Clearly we weren't talking about the same technique. Further, saying a technique "doesn't work on you" is entering Master Wong territory. I respect you and your experience, but saying stuff like that is a big red flag.


The technique doens't work on the stance.  There's nothing wrong with saying that.  That is the nature of all techniques.  Some techniques work against other and some techniques don't.  Like trying to use a font kick to my knee cap to hyper extend my knee doesn't work when my knee has a deep bend in it.   That kick will however work if I have a slight bend in my knee.  

There is no one technique that works against all techniques and I've made no assumptions about it.  I have even stated the weaknesses of the low stance.  Has anyone else talked about the weaknesses that they have in their approach?  I think not.  I don't mind talking about the weaknesses of any techniques that I do, and I have done so in multiple occasions.  But I've also have stated what's been working for me along with why it didn't work.


----------



## zenfrog (Oct 12, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


Fireman's carry/kata garuma?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

zenfrog said:


> Fireman's carry/kata garuma?


yeah sure just impressive in a fighting situation


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> our stance is not low in the picture, the question is how do you move?


That is my mid level stance.  Low stance starts when it gets lower than that.  I can't go super low because it destroys mobility,  So the actual space that is good for mobility is only a few inches lower than that.  The best way to describe it may in terms of the angle of the knee.  So in this picture.  Low stance is anything shorter than this stance so long as my knees don't reach a 90 degree angle.   At that angle the weight distribution changes, weight mobility gets sucked up by the strain on the legs trying to hold that position.   Instead of driving force into the ground it feels like it's going into the knees.  I can lower my height more without bending my knees by making my stance wider, but that makes things worse for me.  It will give me knew problems like shifting weight from one leg to the other.  If the stance is so wide that I can't quickly stand one leg, then my stance is too wide.

  As for moving around at this height I can still walk the stance. (move lead foot, then rear foot.)  I can also shuffle and step back.  Shuffling is probably the quickest, but it's also the most demanding.  The one good thing to take note is if your opponent likes to press you then you won't be in the stance for long.   That person will keep you moving and you'll most likely go through various stance level changes.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That is my mid level stance.  Low stance starts when it gets lower than that.  I can't go super low because it destroys mobility,  So the actual space that is good for mobility is only a few inches lower than that.  The best way to describe it may in terms of the angle of the knee.  So in this picture.  Low stance is anything shorter than this stance so long as my knees don't reach a 90 degree angle.   At that angle the weight distribution changes, weight mobility gets sucked up by the strain on the legs trying to hold that position.   Instead of driving force into the ground it feels like it's going into the knees.  I can lower my height more without bending my knees by making my stance wider, but that makes things worse for me.  It will give me knew problems like shifting weight from one leg to the other.  If the stance is so wide that I can't quickly stand one leg, then my stance is too wide.
> 
> As for moving around at this height I can still walk the stance. (move lead foot, then rear foot.)  I can also shuffle and step back.  Shuffling is probably the quickest, but it's also the most demanding.  The one good thing to take note is if your opponent likes to press you then you won't be in the stance for long.   That person will keep you moving and you'll most likely go through various stance level changes.
> 
> ...


I think that's a good "mid-level" stance for someone who prefers lower stances. It's high enough so that you can have some mobility as long as your legs are conditioned for it, but it's low enough so that you can easily lower your level when you're trying to stuff a shot. I've seen professional fighters who use a stance that low at least some of the time. I'm currently trying to get into the habit of working out of a similarly low stance for my HEMA fencing, as that goes along with the treatise sources we are working with.

I also think you've identified a lot of the relative strengths and weaknesses. You're sacrificing some mobility, you require a degree of leg conditioning, and you are relatively vulnerable to leg kicks. You gain some stability and you're more difficult to take down.

Just don't confuse "more difficult" with "impossible". There are fighters out there who can take you down no matter what stance you fight out of.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Are you light of the feet like them or just lower stance? You need to show yourself moving to tell how well you are doing it. Can you move fast enough?


I can be but I'm usually not.  It just depends on what I think I'll be dealing with.  If I think I'm only going to be dealing with strikes then I'll move around more.  If I think I'll be grappling then I'll move around less knowing that my legs will need that energy.  I try not to make excessive movements, for example, I don't bounce.  But I do bouncing as one of my training exercises as it helps with my leg strength and endurance and helps to to stay light footed.  I just don't use it when sparring. I'll try to remember to record a few minutes of my footwork tonight


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The thing about sprawling is that I can't kick or punch from that position.


The "downward pulling" is similar to spraling but you can still remain your own mobility.

This is the only picture that my teacher competed in the national tournament in Shanghai, China back in 1947.





The moment that you use sprawling, the moment that you lose your own mobility too. If you use your palm to strike on the back of your opponent's neck follow with a pull (neck wipping), you can let your opponent to kiss the dirt while still remaining your own mobility.

This is why I don't like leg shooting. My opponent's free hands can do too many things.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think that's a good "mid-level" stance for someone who prefers lower stances. It's high enough so that you can have some mobility as long as your legs are conditioned for it, but it's low enough so that you can easily lower your level when you're trying to stuff a shot.


I tried to go from high to low in the past just like they teach in a lot of kung fu schools including mine.  It's just not feasible when we are trying to react in fractions of a second.  If we are the same height I've just given you a textbook clear open to shoot in on me. Even if I want to drop stance,  I'm only going to make it half way down as you make contact and that's not enough to get under your arms.  I may not even make it that far if I'm occupied with reacting to your previous action before the shoot.  I wouldn't be surprised if the required drop from high stance to low stance is more than a foot.

From this height





to this stance level is a long journey in a world where a single leg latches on.  Even dropping to that level quickly with no pressure or opponent is difficult to do.  I can't do it,  I don't think that will change as I age lol.  I rather be half way to  where I need to be so it only takes me half the time to get there.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> if I'm occupied with reacting to your previous action before the shoot.


We have talked about the long guard in another thread. If you can put your hand on your opponent's shoulder, you can stop his shooting during the early stage.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just don't confuse "more difficult" with "impossible". There are fighters out there who can take you down no matter what stance you fight out of.


As long as I can identify and be honest with the weaknesses then nothing will be impossible.  Literally, at this moment the easiest way to defeat my low stance is to trigger me to take it and then force me to be in it for a long period of time. aka (2 minutes).  After that I won't have the strength to do the stance.  If I understand that, more than anyone else, then  "impossible" if far from my thoughts..  I even told my sparring partner the same thing, but he went for the brute force solution, which is fine with me.

I think in general there is a misconception  of what a low stance is.  People tend to picture the right thing for conditioning but the wrong thing for application.  Even Kung Fu practitioners debate the effectiveness and use of it.  



Kung Fu Wang said:


> The moment that you use sprawling, the moment that you lose your own mobility too.


I was always taught that the sprawl was the go to for being caught off guard.  If I'm not caught off guard then use the other plan that I have and not fall back on the sprawl.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> We have talked about the long guard in another thread. If you can put your hand on your opponent's shoulder, you can stop his shooting during the early stage.


I used the long guard last night against some a teen (I guessing he's a teen or in his early tweenties).  Whenever he advanced and was in range I would place my hand on the side of his face and push his head off center.  The only reason I was able to do it is because he didn't mange my long guard.   I'm curious if hey will use any of the stuff that I showed them last night.  I showed them the long guard and a low wrestler's  stance. I missed being able to spar with him maybe next time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was always taught that the sprawl was the go to for being caught off guard.  If I'm not caught off guard then use the other plan that I have and not fall back on the sprawl.


As long as your leading leg can move back faster than your opponent's shooting, you can lead your opponent's shooting into the emptiness.

This is why in the "home gym" thread, I suggest to use the weight pulley to train the "press your opponent's head down and step back your leading leg" drill. After you have drilled it over 10,000 times, you will develop fast footwork to pull your leading leg back when your opponent shoots in.

You can go to gym to build up big muscle. You can also develop good shooting counter at the same time - kill 2 birds with 1 stone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 12, 2022)

Most Chinese wrestlers have big muscle.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Most Chinese wrestlers have big muscle.


Definitely looked better fed than the average farmer in the paddy field 😆


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

What do you guys think about Sambo?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> What do you guys think about Sambo?


Heard good things about it. People won in the first few UFC by sambo(I think). So at least they won in the octagon.

It does look like Judo too in your video.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Heard good things about it. People won in the first few UFC by sambo(I think). So at least they won in the octagon.
> 
> Put it this way, I take it over Judo any time of the day.


Definitely looks good stuff. Don't know of any school here though.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Heard good things about it. People won in the first few UFC by sambo(I think). So at least they won in the octagon.
> 
> It does look like Judo too in your video.


Not just the early UFCs. Khabib Nurmagomedov is one of the most dominant fighters of the current era and he has a Sambo background. (Also wrestling and Judo. The 3 arts are very synergistic.)



Jimmythebull said:


> What do you guys think about Sambo?


I’m a fan of Sambo and have trained just a little bit in it. The instructor in that video is Vlad Koulikov. I’m going to be attending a seminar with him next month and I’ll probably post to report my experience.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The instructor in that video is Vlad Koulikov. I’m going to be attending a seminar with him next month and I’ll probably post to report my experience.


Yeah do that ..I've always liked the Look of sambo


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

So I take it in Sambo they train without a jacket too?
Yup...Good stuff


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> So I take it in Sambo they train without a jacket too?
> Yup...Good stuff



Not traditionally. Typically Sambo is practiced with a jacket. MMA pushed many grappling systems towards nogi.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> What do you guys think about Sambo?


It's a fine grappling system. Unfortunately it's getting eclipsed by BJJ and MMA grappling systems outside of Russia.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Not traditionally. Typically Sambo is practiced with a jacket. MMA pushed many grappling systems towards nogi.


I´ve never seen it live so can only go by videos but yes most are with Gi


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> It's a fine grappling system. Unfortunately it's getting eclipsed by BJJ and MMA grappling systems outside of Russia.


old system..


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I´ve never seen it live so can only go by videos but yes most are with Gi



It's the same thing that happened with Bjj; Traditional BJJ is practiced in the gi, but nogi popularity exploded in the early 2000s, and now you'll be hard-pressed to find a BJJ gym not offering nogi training.

I personally prefer nogi for cost (cheaper than a gi), more self-expression, and self defense.



> old system..



Very old. It made some waves a few years ago thanks to its leglocks and stand up, but Renzo's DDS boys stole its thunder before it could get a foothold.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Very old.


yeah let´s not forget Russia is a vast country with mongolian in there & a chinese influence...do you think there´s an influence from the chinese wrestling?


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Not traditionally. Typically Sambo is practiced with a jacket. MMA pushed many grappling systems towards nogi.


Don't forget the short shorts.  They are the standout feature of Sambo.

Because dammit, wrestlers have the legs for it.


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## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> yeah let´s not forget Russia is a vast country with mongolian in there & a chinese influence...do you think there´s an influence from the chinese wrestling?



If someone showed some evidence of Chinese wrestling within Russian wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia and Eastern Europe has some of the best wrestlers on the planet.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> If someone showed some evidence of Chinese wrestling within Russian wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia and Eastern Europe has some of the best wrestlers on the planet.


very true


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> If someone showed some evidence of Chinese wrestling within Russian wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia and Eastern Europe has some of the best wrestlers on the planet.


True story: Someone once tried to convince me South Americans invented wrestling.  They were extremely determined, too.

I responded with "A Tiger in Africa???". 

They were bewitched.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> It's a fine grappling system. Unfortunately it's getting eclipsed by BJJ and MMA grappling systems outside of Russia.


Just take what is useful and use it. BJJ alone won't do it now-a-days either, they also has to incorporate other style to be effective.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> If someone showed some evidence of Chinese wrestling within Russian wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia and Eastern Europe has some of the best wrestlers on the planet.


Don't you know by now, that anything that is good, CMA will claim they invented it 1000 years ago?!!!  🤣

I am waiting for them to claim they invented boxing or Muy Thai also.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> If someone showed some evidence of Chinese wrestling within Russian wrestling, I wouldn't be surprised. Russia and Eastern Europe has some of the best wrestlers on the planet.


They have always been strong in  wrestling.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't you know by now, that anything that is good, CMA will claim they invented it 1000 years ago?!!!  🤣
> 
> I am waiting for them to claim they invented boxing or Muy Thai also.


My understanding îs that Muay Thai is the sporting version of muay boran


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't you know by now, that anything that is good, CMA will claim they invented it 1000 years ago?!!!  🤣
> 
> I am waiting for them to claim they invented boxing or Muy Thai also.


My understanding îs that Muay Thai is the sporting version of muay boran.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Just take what is useful and use it. BJJ alone won't do it now-a-days either, they also has to incorporate other style to be effective.



Well I wasn't saying that Bjj was superior or anything. What I mean is that Sambo attempted to enter the grappling craze and was making a little headway, but was quickly cut off by Bjj exponents embracing leglocks and wrestling. In the end, it became less that Sambo was offering something BJJ wasn't offering, and more if you prefer Sambo's aesthetics to Bjj's.

The problem for Sambo was that Bjj's culture was just WAY more appealing to the masses than Sambo's. Just like Brazil and southern California is WAY more appealing than Russia. So because of that, Sambo got eclipsed pretty quickly. Still a highly effective system of grappling though. The same thing happened to Catch btw when it tried to get into the grappling craze in the late 90s/2000s.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't you know by now, that anything that is good, CMA will claim they invented it 1000 years ago?!!!  🤣
> 
> I am waiting for them to claim they invented boxing or Muy Thai also.


Well, the Chinese wrestling tradition is over 4,500 years old, a lot older than the Greek Dark Ages.  The closest comparison I know of is Egyptian wrestling, which dates as far back as the 20th century BC and contains pretty much every hold in modern wrestling.

The oldest artifacts depicting wrestling are actually cave drawings.

Really, no culture "invented" wrestling.  Humans evolved this skill from our mammal ancestors, which is why you can find the origins of wrestling in every major civilization in history.   But historically it all comes from the Asia/Africa/Levant region (like everything human).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2022)

Ancient Chinese wrestling pictures.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2022)

People who promoted Chinese wrestling in US back in 1980.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> i am being honest here, i never had my glasses on & am blind as a bat when reading


You should have stopped abusing yourself sooner…


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yes they're not a new thing. The original Videos i posted showed some dancing aerobics. Like mc Hammer 🤣
> Same pants too


Don’t fool yourself, MC Hammer is a legitimately scary customer. He may have poor fashion taste, but the dude has people that will put folks in the ground where it’s moist.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Same here. I had a new sparring partner whose Judo was much better than I realized. I took his back and had only a split second to realize that I'd been suckered before I went flying. We were sparring no-gi and I rarely run into people who are that good at hitting the shoulder throw without a jacket to grab onto.
> 
> It was a good lesson though. After that I remembered to always make sure my hips were lower than my opponent's whenever I went go for the back.


My question to all this is if you were on concrete, what changes about the efficacy of the throw or sweep?


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> crazy swinging punches which reminds me of a guy i knew as a kid. when he had a fight he always swung his punches. Bit of topic i know but i was wondering why chinese wrestling is not more popular (as wrote in my last post). It does look good. I would definetly try it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We call that the ghetto whopper where I’m from.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Don’t fool yourself, MC Hammer is a legitimately scary customer. He may have poor fashion taste, but the dude has people that will put folks in the ground where it’s moist.


Was some crazy fashion in the Gym too..
Wanna wrestle Woo bear? 🤣


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Really, no culture "invented" wrestling.


Wrestling the activity is natural. It's how mammals learn how to fight. It provides a way to establish an alpha and to establish a rank within society.  It.

All mammals do this in some shape or form.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Steve said:


> Don't get me wrong.  I think it's great that you are doing something a little different.  But man, the way you draw sweeping conclusions from your limited interactions with a single "MMA sparring partner" just seems janky.  To be more specific, I think you might be jumping to a conclusion with insufficient evidence or experience.
> 
> It's like if I said, "Gay men do X.  I know a lot about this because I have a gay friend."





Jimmythebull said:


> Was some crazy fashion in the Gym too..
> Wanna wrestle Woo bear? 🤣
> View attachment 29125


Um no thanks. I have a headache.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wrestling the activity is natural. It's how mammals learn how to fight. It provides a way to establish an alpha and to establish a rank within society.  It.
> 
> All mammals do this in some shape or form.


Even snakes do it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Wrestling the activity is natural. It's how mammals learn how to fight. It provides a way to establish an alpha and to establish a rank within society.  It.
> 
> All mammals do this in some shape or form.


But before "society" was even established, it was a way to procure food (and...mates) before we made our first tools.

And humans didn't even invent tools....

This is a from a 4000 year old African tomb.





19th century draft reproduction.  Crazy that this stuff actually exists, and we found it.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But before "society" was even established, it was a way to procure food before we made our first tools.
> 
> And humans didn't even invent tools....
> 
> ...


These are early court reporters ways of recording the proceeding on an assault case circa 4000 bce.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My question to all this is if you were on concrete, what changes about the efficacy of the throw or sweep?


For me it depends on the available grip of the surface spinning sweeps vs non spinning sweeps


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Wow, I don't think I ever caught this before, but that's a 4,000 year old depiction of a guard...

Your move, Kron.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> But before "society" was even established, it was a way to procure food (and...mates) before we made our first tools.
> 
> And humans didn't even invent tools....
> 
> ...


It's the only activity where dominance can be established without all males killing each other. Lol


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's the only activity where dominance can be established without all males killing each other. Lol


Hmm, you might just have discovered the spark at the dawn of society.

"I want your woman".

"Nope" 

*wrestling ensues*

"Ok now go sit the corner and behave".


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My question to all this is if you were on concrete, what changes about the efficacy of the throw or sweep?


Accordinate to the Chinese wrestling rule, if you have Chinese wrestling jacket on you, anybody who challenges you, you cannot refuse the challenge. If anybody get killed during wrestling (with wrestling jacket on), there will be no legale issue involved. The Chinese wrestling jacket is called "the hero skin". If you have the courage to put it on, your death cannot be blammed by your opponent.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Wow, I don't think I ever caught this before, but that's a 4,000 year old depiction of a guard...
> 
> Your move, Kron.
> 
> View attachment 29129


You sure it's guard or kissing? Or something else?!!!


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You sure it's guard or kissing? Or something else?!!!


What they don’t do that move in the octagon? It’s right before one takes the other ones back. It goes back to Greek men mentoring younger more nubile wrestlers.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)




----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 13, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You sure it's guard or kissing? Or something else?!!!


What's the difference?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My question to all this is if you were on concrete, what changes about the efficacy of the throw or sweep?


If we had been on concrete, that throw would have hurt. A lot. It was a high amplitude, high speed shoulder throw. I think that my ukemi is good enough that I probably wouldn't have been knocked out, but it would have sucked.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Accordinate to the Chinese wrestling rule, if you have Chinese wrestling jacket on you, anybody who challenges you, you cannot refuse the challenge. If anybody get killed during wrestling (with wrestling jacket on), there will be no legale issue involved. The Chinese wrestling jacket is called "the hero skin". If you have the courage to put it on, your death cannot be blammed by your opponent.





Tony Dismukes said:


> If we had been on concrete, that throw would have hurt. A lot. It was a high amplitude, high speed shoulder throw. I think that my ukemi is good enough that I probably wouldn't have been knocked out, but it would have sucked.


It’s part of why I don’t buy a lot of the arguments in here about what’s better, because it depends on so many things.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It’s part of why I don’t buy a lot of the arguments in here about what’s better, because it depends on so many things.


A: Why do you lift your opponent over your shoulder and then drop him down? Why don't you just drag him down instead?
B: Because you want to use the height to drop your opponent to cause damage. If you can smash your opponent's head onto the ground, the game is over.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2022)

Here is a SC introduction video to share. It was filmed in 1980.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2022)

One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:

- not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
- maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).

But after MMA is popular, people no longer train this any more.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 14, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:
> 
> - not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
> - maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).
> ...


I always teach my students how to throw their opponent and stay standing first. There are times when it’s better to stay standing and there are times when it’s better to go down to the ground and control your opponent. But if you can throw and keep your balance, it’s an easy adjustment to go down with your opponent if the situation calls for it. On the other hand, if you’ve only practiced going down with your opponent, then it’s a lot harder to stay standing after a throw if that’s what’s necessary in the moment.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> there are times when it’s better to go down to the ground and control your opponent.


SC guy will also go down with opponent for the reasons as:

- lose balance.
- drag down by opponent.
- do it on purpose to use body weight to hurt opponent.

The difference is a SC guy may try to get back up ASAP.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:
> 
> - not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
> - maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).
> ...



I don’t agree with that. People are still taught throws and sweeps  in western wrestling, Bjj, and MMA grappling. The issue is that there are times when throwing someone to the ground won’t stop them. There’s plenty of examples of people getting thrown to a hard surface and popping right back up again and coming for the person who threw them a second, third, or even fourth time. Each time that person comes at you again is another chance they can seriously hurt you.

The other issue is the chance of injury or even death that can be caused from throwing someone on their head or back. Good luck explaining to a judge and jury why you had to paralyze a guy at a bar because he slapped your girl’s butt. 

In short, in a lot of cases it is simply better to control someone on the ground over simply tossing them and letting the chips fall where they may. That said, there’s definitely cases where tossing someone is a good idea as well, and people should definitely know how to take someone down and stay on their feet.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> It goes back to Greek men mentoring younger more nubile wrestlers


This thread just got weird 🤣
Joking aside this below is oil wrestling


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2022)

There are 5 brenches of Chinese wrestling:

- Beijing style.
- Baoding style.
- Tianjin style.
- Mongolian sttyle.
- Yi style.

Here is a video for Chinese Yi minority people no jacket wrestling.

You can see:

- Sprawl.
- Single leg, double legs, foot sweep, outer hook, firemen's carry throw, shoulder throw, embracing, leg spring, leg block, hip throw, ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2022)

Video for Mongolian wrestling. They only wrestle for 1 round. No time limit.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:
> 
> - not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
> - maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).
> ...


Because they got creamed.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I don’t agree with that. People are still taught throws and sweeps  in western wrestling, Bjj, and MMA grappling. The issue is that there are times when throwing someone to the ground won’t stop them. There’s plenty of examples of people getting thrown to a hard surface and popping right back up again and coming for the person who threw them a second, third, or even fourth time. Each time that person comes at you again is another chance they can seriously hurt you.
> 
> The other issue is the chance of injury or even death that can be caused from throwing someone on their head or back. Good luck explaining to a judge and jury why you had to paralyze a guy at a bar because he slapped your girl’s butt.
> 
> In short, in a lot of cases it is simply better to control someone on the ground over simply tossing them and letting the chips fall where they may. That said, there’s definitely cases where tossing someone is a good idea as well, and people should definitely know how to take someone down and stay on their feet.


Problem is those kind of Judo stuff end at throwing the opponent to the ground. But it is proven throw to the ground is ONLY the start, then comes the ground game that those Judo really don't have anything. *I called those Judo in the generic term, they all the same.*


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Video for Mongolian wrestling. They only wrestle for 1 round. No time limit.


That's where BJJ and wrestling is SO MUCH more advanced. All these "Judo" end when throwing to the ground. that's where bjj and wrestling begin. That's why BJJ and wrestling made a mark in UFC and MMA.

Maybe they should challenge Xu Xiaodong in China first, if they can beat him, at least make a little name, then try fight into the octagon and see how they fair.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=xu+xiaodong


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Problem is those kind of Judo stuff end at throwing the opponent to the ground. But it is proven throw to the ground is ONLY the start, then comes the ground game that those Judo really don't have anything. *I called those Judo in the generic term, they all the same.*


Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone.  You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Did the old man Gracie start here?...I think so.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone.  You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.


Both ground skill (1 against 1) and mobility (1 against many) are important. It's better to preserve both instead of to preserve just one of the other.

Here is a clip of taking your opponent down and then take off.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone.  You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.


That's better.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> That's better.


Of course the BJJ people still probably think the Gracies invented it all.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Of course the BJJ people still probably think the Gracies invented it all.


They are not doing too well now!!! MMA is so much more advance after incorporate BJJ into it and improved. I am not defending BJJ, they did ruled at the beginning of UFC, then faded. I myself would like to learn BJJ only because I have no knowledge of ground game. It will really add to my kick boxing.

there are advantage of ground game, there was news that one of those crazy attacker tried to attack people randomly, one of the BJJ guy submitted him, hold him on the ground long enough for the police to come over to arrest the guy. If he started kicking the guy after throwing him down, he might got into trouble of assaulting the guy. You don't know the law here, it's getting crazy. Releasing violent criminal and prosecute the law abiding people to the full extend.

You mean BJJ people have a garbage mouth like those CMA people also? I have no idea. I can only speak from my experience of CMA people when I was in Hong Kong those days.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> They are not doing too well now!!!


Nothing against BJJ but I'm sick of people thinking it's somehow invincible..utter BS


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Nothing against BJJ but I'm sick of people thinking it's somehow invincible..utter BS


No, I call it as it is. Gracie did ruled the first few UFC, he opened the eyes of the world. But then wrestlers took over. Gracie was destroyed later by Matt Huges.

Thinking back after someone said Royce Gracie was sloppy. There might be some truth. I don't know enough to judge, but sure seems like the stuffs is a lot tighter in MMA ground game compare to Gracie.

People should let winning do the talking, not by garbage mouth. It's a really turn off. You should listen if you were in Hong Kong. I am so sick and tired of those trash talk...........AND then see them being slaughtered in the modern days.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No, I call it as it is.


Was just talking in general,  not you Alan. I hear it a lot ...I do BJJ I'M a blue belt..who cares.
They think it's some kind of badge of recognition.that they are bad.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

So I'm going to wrestle my pillow 
Good night all...


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone.  You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.



Kosen is merely a ruleset. These days, Judoka looking to improve their ground game go to Bjj, even in Japan.

As for fighting on the ground, I’ve seen plenty of street fights go there, whether people want to go there or not. Best to be the one who knows what to do.


----------



## geezer (Oct 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here is a SC introduction video to share. It was filmed in 1980.


John, thanks so much for sharing this old video. I find it very interesting just how many of the solo drills look exactly like pieces of forms from striking arts ranging from long fist to wing chun. I've always thought that a lot of the movements you see in striking arts may have originally had grappling, locking and throwing applications ...yes, even in Wing Chun. Some examples:

_-The drawing shown in the beginning at* 0:33 *above, _with the elbow striking the opponent's chin looks exactly like a technique in my WC branch  called gwai-jarn that I sometimes use to set up a throw. The throw part is not really _taught_ as far as I know, it's just something that made sense to me.

_ - The "bowing" excercise at 7:07 above: _Looks a lot like the final movement sequence in Wing Chun's _Biu Tze_ form, and the throw shown could probably be added onto a WC close range combination as a finishing move. I will definitely experiment with that as soon as we get back into the training room with mats! See Biu Tze, 1:48-1:55 below:






_-The "Belt Cracking" training show from 8:33 to 8:53 above: _ ...that's already been shown being integrated with Wing Chun (Ving Tsun) by the well known Wong Shun Leung lineage instructor , _Wang Zhi Peng_ in Beijing:


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> So I'm going to wrestle my pillow
> Good night all...
> View attachment 29149


Good night, it's late your time.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Problem is those kind of Judo stuff end at throwing the opponent to the ground. But it is proven throw to the ground is ONLY the start, then comes the ground game that those Judo really don't have anything. *I called those Judo in the generic term, they all the same.*


Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ.  Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO.  Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping.  And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.

Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two.  Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc). 

No gi?  Definitely goes to the BJJ no gi players but that's because no gi Judo is not a thing AFAIk. 

But this idea that Judo is just for throws and don't train on the ground (well), na dude.  Best ground grappling partner I ever had was not a BJJ black belt, it was a Judo black belt with 40 years experience.  Total badass.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ.  Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO.  Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping.  And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.
> 
> Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two.  Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc).
> 
> ...


I just judge by the *all videos shown by Kung Fung Wang*, all the talk, most just look like Judo that I learned before.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Because they got creamed.


Not really.  Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.

Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler.  So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.

As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Not really.  Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.
> 
> Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler.  So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.
> 
> As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.


CMA did not get creamed? We must be watching different UFC. CMA never make it back in the Octagon. Now, there are CHINESE fighting in the Octagon, but they are MMA and fight like MMA.

I am not defending Gracie, I already said he disappeared since UFC3, then wrestlers took over. Gracie got slaughtered by Matt Huges later.

Even BJJ really have not come back, I saw people from Brazil fought in UFC later, but I don't think they claimed to be BJJ. They fought like MMA. So maybe BJJ is out of tough like CMA too.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Plenty of judoka have a fine ground game without ever training BJJ.  Could they improve on it by cross training sure, but if you learn ground techniques in Judo properly...it's pretty much the same experience, IMHO.  Same warmups, subs, chokes, sweeps, throws, bridging, bumping.  And these were not even Kosen judo competitors, these were traditional Kodokan schools with comp teams.
> 
> Actually I've rolled with about as many high level judoka as BJJ belts, *never really noticed a difference in the newaza between the two*.  Never ever met a Judoka that could not do well on the ground, though their strats often differ a bit (attrition vs upgrading position etc).



Eh, with modern guards and leg locks in BJJ, and Judo actually regressing due to competitive rule changes, I really don't see how that's the case.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> CMA did not get creamed? We must be watching different UFC. CMA never make it back in the Octagon. Now, there are CHINESE fighting in the Octagon, but they are MMA and fight like MMA.
> 
> I am not defending Gracie, I already said he disappeared since UFC3, then wrestlers took over. Gracie got slaughtered by Matt Huges later.
> 
> Even BJJ really have not come back, I saw people from Brazil fought in UFC later, but I don't think they claimed to be BJJ. They fought like MMA. So maybe BJJ is out of tough like CMA too.


CMA did not get creamed, since some of the very first UFC winners were fighting under Asian martial arts banners.   Even the ones fighting under the Brazilian flag were really just doing judo newaza and slapping their family name on it. 

Ninjas got creamed, along with the pro wrestlers.  CMA/FMA/JMA/KMA did OK, imho.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, with modern guards and leg locks in BJJ, and Judo actually regressing due to competitive rule changes, I really don't see how that's the case.


My judo experience is just that old, dude.  Like me.  BJJ is just the youngin of the two, if you get me.  Scrappy, sure.

If things have changed, it'd be hard for me to even tell, I'm too busy training the way I know.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> CMA did not get creamed, since some of the very first UFC winners were fighting under Asian martial arts banners.   Even the ones fighting under the Brazilian flag were really just doing judo newaza and slapping their family name on it.
> 
> Ninjas got creamed, along with the pro wrestlers.  CMA/FMA/JMA/KMA did OK, imho.


It's easy, go up to the octagon now and see. I remember I saw a few CMA in the introduction clip in UFC2, I remember the Wing Chung got slaughtered.

CMA should test out their stuffs in the octagon, you have the goods, audition and go win. If they win, then they can talk all the trash and it's ok. Don't be like the days after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him and talk trash. I was there those days.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Not really.  Early UFCs were pretty vacant of decent ground grappling arts for a reason.
> 
> Royce Gracie would not have faired well against a decent judoka or wrestler.  So they made damn sure he only fought pro wrestlers and people with no ground training.
> 
> As soon as that changed, BJJ was still destined to take off, but judo players had been doing that stuff for a long time before the Gracie Challenge.



Uh, he fought both Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the early UFCs and beat them both. The reason their ground game sucked was because no one took ground fighting seriously in those days. Even Judo had largely neglected it by the early 1990s.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> My judo experience is just that old, dude.  Like me.  BJJ is just the youngin of the two, if you get me.  Scrappy, sure.
> 
> If things have changed, it'd be hard for me to even tell, I'm too busy training the way I know.


Yes, things have changed considerably. Especially in the last 15 or so years thanks to no-gi and leglocks. Leglocks especially being the largest evolutionary push in the art in some time. For example, Ashi Garami, a banned leglock in Judo became a Guard variation.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's easy, go up to the octagon now and see. I remember I saw a few CMA in the introduction clip in UFC2, I remember the Wing Chung got slaughtered.
> 
> CMA should test out their stuffs in the octagon, you have the goods, audition and go win. If they win, then they can talk all the trash and it's ok. Don't be like the days after Bruce Lee died, everyone came out and said they can beat him and talk trash. I was there those days.


You're not wrong.  Wing Chun often gets slaughtered but nowadays there's a bunch of Wing Chun guys in MMA that don't.

That's how its supposed to work.  I think we agree.

Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to *do something about it*, which quite frankly dwarfs any professional combat sports competitor I can think of.  And he paid the price too.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 15, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, he fought both Ken Shamrock and Dan Severn in the early UFCs and beat them both. The reason their ground game sucked was because no one took ground fighting seriously in those days. Even Judo had largely neglected it by the early 1990s.


Both Ken and Dan were veterans on the ground but had, AFAIK, little training in Judo.

Funny thing.  If you know Judo, you know nobody expects Judo!  Especially wrestlers.

I just made this.  Copyright is free to everyone feel free to share.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> The other issue is the chance of injury or even death that can be caused from throwing someone on their head or back. Good luck explaining to a judge and jury why you had to paralyze a guy at a bar because he slapped your girl’s butt.


I'm in the US and this logic is always strange to me because the same reasoning is not used for guns.  Shoot an attacker is self defense, but thrown an attacker on his head And it's murder.   The gun is more deadly than the throw.  

I'm sure why so many can about the attacker when there is no gun, but when a gun is used many people say the attacker deserved to be shot.  Maybe the majority of the people that I hear thus logic from don't live in the US.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> . I can only speak from my experience of CMA people when I was in Hong Kong those days.


You should let that go and only focus on CMA and martial arts in general that can be used.   What you do is like a person who had a bad dentist experience and think all dentist don't know what they are doing.  Use you experience to help identify functional martial arts and quality teachers.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

geezer said:


> I've always thought that a lot of the movements you see in striking arts may have originally had grappling, locking and throwing applications ..


I usually find this to be the case for a lot "striking" techniques that feel little off for a striking technique.  Especially if the technique puts me into a position where I question the probability that I would be in that position to strike.  If the technique doesn't feel right as a striking technique then see if it's a grappling technique.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to *do something about it*,


He even states that he was only going after fakes. His goal wasn't to fight kung fu practioners who knew how to fight.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Both Ken and Dan were veterans on the ground but had, AFAIK, little training in Judo.
> 
> Funny thing.  If you know Judo, you know nobody expects Judo!  Especially wrestlers.



Wrestlers had dominated Judo for decades. It was a running joke that wrestlers would enter Judo comps and win. I do believe a big reason for the Olympic Judo rule change after 2008 was because a Mongolian wrestler ended up winning gold or silver by doing double-leg takedowns. Even embarrassing one of Japan's top Judoka. TBF, but the only grappling style that blunted wrestling's dominance in the grappling realm was Bjj. Judo could have done it, but Kano's hang-ups on ground grappling, and the push for Judo in the Olympics following WW2 stopped that from happening. It was the Brazilians who took Judo to its most logical stylistic conclusion.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm in the US and this logic is always strange to me because the same reasoning is not used for guns.  Shoot an attacker is self defense, but thrown an attacker on his head And it's murder.   The gun is more deadly than the throw.
> 
> I'm sure why so many can about the attacker when there is no gun, but when a gun is used many people say the attacker deserved to be shot.  Maybe the majority of the people that I hear thus logic from don't live in the US.



I'm also from the US (though I'm currently overseas), and I don't understand it either. I suppose many Americans have a deep fear of being unable to defend themselves with their hands so they have a gun at their hip just to be sure they can be belligerent a-holes and not deal with any consequences.

That said, yeah if I'm in a street fight and choke someone to death, I'll be looking at quite some time behind bars unless I can prove that my life was in absolute peril. I think even if I dislocate a shoulder or a knee I could still be looking at some pretty hefty assault charges.

Shame, because I do love me some shoulder locks.....


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 15, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> One thing that's very important for Chinese wrestling is to remain balance when you throw your opponent on the ground. The reason are:
> 
> - not to drop your body on top of your opponent when your opponent is on the ground (for safety reason).
> - maintain mobility so you can take off if you need to (when you deal with multiple opponents).
> ...


I would train with you if you were near


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> This thread just got weird 🤣
> Joking aside this below is oil wrestling
> View attachment 29138


Where is his hand? Bro.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah but kosen Judo? Also outside when on the ground no-one goes to the floor with anyone.  You'll get a few kicks to the head..then that's it.


That’s right. Choking my buddy outside the bar gets you a soccer kick to the head. Who is tough now? It doesn’t mean a thing in the street. 230 grains of hollow point doesn’t care a damn about your superior technique.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> So I'm going to wrestle my pillow
> Good night all...
> View attachment 29149


Now this you can trust?


----------



## Darren (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone do this on here? @ 2:06 just picks him up..lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I would train with you if you were near


Ha ha.  I think I would need some beginner lessons.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You're not wrong.  Wing Chun often gets slaughtered but nowadays there's a bunch of Wing Chun guys in MMA that don't.
> 
> That's how its supposed to work.  I think we agree.
> 
> Xu Xiadong trained real kung fu, got upset at the state of "masters" in China, and decided to *do something about it*, which quite frankly dwarfs any professional combat sports competitor I can think of.  And he paid the price too.


I must have missed it about the WC guys in MMA. Do they fight like the traditional WC or they fight like MMA?

If they start fighting like MMA, it's a different story, then it's not WC. Remember, those CMA people are very STUBBORN, they believe in following the tradition and history, that's the reason they got beat over and over. If they are humble and learn the things that WORK, sky is the limit. That's how it should be.

*Don't mistaken that I trash Chinese, I am Chinese and I am PROUD of a lot of things that Chinese are good at.* Look at how successful Chinese are in US. I am in high tech. Chinese *DOMINATES* the hardware engineering in electronics. Go to any high tech company, you can get away speaking Chinese!!! They buy real estate in the best part of town and drive the nicest cars. BUT when comes to MA, something really gone wrong. I just call it as it is. The pride and ego get in the way.

Chinese writing and painting are very good also..............BUT their music standard...........BAD too, this is speaking as a musician myself. I am a lot better as a musician than MA I can ever be. I was professional and won a lot of competition in HK in the 70s!!!!

I just call it as it is. They want to brag, go win some fights in the octagon with* their tradition style*, then we talk. *Don't fight like MMA and claim they are CMA*. I know there are good Chinese MMA fighter, I just saw a few fights not too long ago. They are MMA, they are very good too. AND please don't start telling me CMA have all the moves in MMA 1000 years ago!!!!


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 15, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> You should let that go and only focus on CMA and martial arts in general that can be used.   What you do is like a person who had a bad dentist experience and think all dentist don't know what they are doing.  Use you experience to help identify functional martial arts and quality teachers.


Too many of them.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> That’s right. Choking my buddy outside the bar gets you a soccer kick to the head. Who is tough now? It doesn’t mean a thing in the street. 230 grains of hollow point doesn’t care a damn about your superior technique.



If your buddy is choking someone outside the bar, you’d still soccer kick the guy he’s choking. So instead of just getting kicked, the guy is getting choked too.

In short, fighting in the street is a bad idea, and should be avoided.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> In short, fighting in the street is a bad idea, and should be avoided.


Self defense should include to defend your love one. When someone attacks your love one in the street, you can't avoid it.

The major reason that one trains MA is to develop some MA skill so in case he gets into a street fight, he can survive.

Again, sport is the path, combat is the goal. It makes sense to spend some of your life time in sport. But to spend all your life in sport just make no sense to me. When you train for sport, you train those legal moves. When you train for combat, you train those illegal moves.

Combat can be in many different forms:

- Battle field.
- Police work, secret service job, body guard duty, ...
- Challenge fight.
- Street fight.
- ...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Too many of them.


I would agree with that.   In comparison to the schools that actually train the application through sparring.  But I think that will change with the up coming generations.  I think it will be the ones who have a passion for martial arts application that will do it.  Also teachers will need to teach martial art application through sparring against different systems.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Self defense should include to defend your love one. When someone attacks your love one in the street, you can't avoid it.
> 
> The major reason that one trains MA is to develop some MA skill so in case he gets into a street fight, he can survive.
> 
> ...



Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself? I would argue that 99% of "street fights" are situations you can easily avoid if you keep your ego in check and simply walk away, or if you don't frequent certain areas like bars or pubs. That 1% is when you're dealing with an unhinged person who simply won't allow you to escape. Challenge fights fall into that category as well where 9/10 times you can simply walk away from the situation and let the person say whatever they want.

Unless you're a soldier, "Battlefield" isn't going to apply, but even if you are a soldier, chances are you're using weapons, and you're not running around the place with your shirt off looking to fight someone hand to hand.

Frankly. the most likely situation where you're going to apply martial arts training is police work, security, and similar lines of work. I would add being a teacher to that list, since some schools are pretty much havens for violence, and I've seen plenty of instances where teachers had to fight off crazed teenagers who are often bigger and stronger.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself?


Not to protect yourself, but to protect someone else.

You walk in the street. A guy tries to drag a girl into his car. The girl is screeaming. There are no police around. No street people are willing to help.

If you let that person to drag that girl into his car and drive away, you don't know what will happen to that girl.

You don't know that girl. You just feel that you should do something. A punch on that guy's head may not be needed. But a head lock from behind and force the guy to release that girl seems to be a good option.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Realistically though, in what situation would you find yourself in a situation where a street fight would occur and you have no choice but to protect yourself? I would argue that 99% of "street fights" are situations you can easily avoid if you keep your ego in check and simply walk away, or if you don't frequent certain areas like bars or pubs. That 1% is when you're dealing with an unhinged person who simply won't allow you to escape. Challenge fights fall into that category as well where 9/10 times you can simply walk away from the situation and let the person say whatever they want.
> 
> Unless you're a soldier, "Battlefield" isn't going to apply, but even if you are a soldier, chances are you're using weapons, and you're not running around the place with your shirt off looking to fight someone hand to hand.
> 
> Frankly. the most likely situation where you're going to apply martial arts training is police work, security, and similar lines of work. I would add being a teacher to that list, since some schools are pretty much havens for violence, and I've seen plenty of instances where teachers had to fight off crazed teenagers who are often bigger and stronger.


Must teachers are not fit enough to go toe to toe with a teenager. Being older and out of shape puts them at a big disadvantage. Self defense for nost of them will need to be more preventive.  Maybe educate teens at an early age about the law.  Some teens do things because they know they are under 18.  They don't have a good understanding of the exception that would make it legal for an adult to hit a teen.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Must teachers are not fit enough to go toe to toe with a teenager. Being older and out of shape puts them at a big disadvantage. Self defense for nost of them will need to be more preventive.  Maybe educate teens at an early age about the law.  Some teens do things because they know they are under 18.  They don't have a good understanding of the exception that would make it legal for an adult to hit a teen.


This is the sad reality & against a gang it's difficult.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Not to protect yourself, but to protect someone else.
> 
> You walk in the street. A guy tries to drag a girl into his car. The girl is screeaming. There are no police around. No street people are willing to help.
> 
> ...



Eh, I doubt I’d get involved in something like that. If I think it looks sketchy, I’d notify the police. There’s self defense, protecting others, and then there’s trying to be Batman without a costume. That can get you killed.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Must teachers are not fit enough to go toe to toe with a teenager. Being older and out of shape puts them at a big disadvantage. Self defense for nost of them will need to be more preventive.  Maybe educate teens at an early age about the law.  Some teens do things because they know they are under 18.  They don't have a good understanding of the exception that would make it legal for an adult to hit a teen.



Most? I’d say the vast majority. I would recommend every teacher to learn self defense of some type, regardless of what school they’re teaching at. We had a teacher train at my old gym years ago, and learning grappling saved her life. She got trained in how to grapple with teens because she actually grappled with teens of different sizes and power during training. 

By the time of her attack, she was a very solid blue belt who was very good at escaping holds and pins, and exceptional at back takes.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Wrestlers had dominated Judo for decades. It was a running joke that wrestlers would enter Judo comps and win. I do believe a big reason for the Olympic Judo rule change after 2008 was because a Mongolian wrestler ended up winning gold or silver by doing double-leg takedowns. Even embarrassing one of Japan's top Judoka. TBF, but the only grappling style that blunted wrestling's dominance in the grappling realm was Bjj. Judo could have done it, but Kano's hang-ups on ground grappling, and the push for Judo in the Olympics following WW2 stopped that from happening. It was the Brazilians who took Judo to its most logical stylistic conclusion.


Where can I read about wrestlers dominating judo worldwide for decades?  I'd love to learn if this is true or just your viewpoint.

Not that I disagree, but again, when I did Judo, it was on par with all other wrestling I'd done before.  If you're talking D1 level, I might agree more.  But for average players, I've seen many a wrestler, even collegiate level ones, fit right in Judo and not dominate.  More like pollenate, or it's good to have them in Judo classes (just like it's good to have Sambo, jujutsu, BJJ dudes as well).

But damn if this is the case, it might be time to go back and get my judo black belt.  It would be a cake walk if I could find the time.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> This is the sad reality & against a gang it's difficult.


Does anybody else get spammed with the VShred dude when trying to watch these?  Telling me how my cardio will never help me lose weight and I need his program?

Trying to figure out if it's just me.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Does anybody else get spammed with the VShred dude when trying to watch these?  Telling me how my cardio will never help me lose weight and I need his program?
> 
> Trying to figure out if it's just me.


i´m no computer GEEK but maybe you need a better anti virus blocker
I changed recently my internet source & got a free Norton anti virus. works great.  I normally just used free AVG  or something like that.
of course this pc is just for my entertainment.. working from home work wise protect with a top anti virus


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Where can I read about wrestlers dominating judo worldwide for decades? I'd love to learn if this is true or just your viewpoint.





Oily Dragon said:


> Not that I disagree, but again, when I did Judo, it was on par with all other wrestling I'd done before.  If you're talking D1 level, I might agree more.  But for average players, I've seen many a wrestler, even collegiate level ones, fit right in Judo and not dominate.  More like pollenate, or it's good to have them in Judo classes (just like it's good to have Sambo, jujutsu, BJJ dudes as well).
> 
> But damn if this is the case, it might be time to go back and get my judo black belt.  It would be a cake walk if I could find the time.











						How Western Wrestlers Changed Judo - Fight Times Magazine
					

“Judo is a source of national pride in Japan, where the martial art originated.” (Cheng, 2012) But as larger, stronger foreigners, often with a wrestling background, entered the sport, the Japanese world-domination of Judo was challenged. Over the last fifty years judo has seen many rule changes...



					magazine.fighttimes.com


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> How Western Wrestlers Changed Judo - Fight Times Magazine
> 
> 
> “Judo is a source of national pride in Japan, where the martial art originated.” (Cheng, 2012) But as larger, stronger foreigners, often with a wrestling background, entered the sport, the Japanese world-domination of Judo was challenged. Over the last fifty years judo has seen many rule changes...
> ...


Thanks!!  Just for that dude, this is for you.

I'd like to know how many times watching this video you exclaim out loud.  At 30s in I was on my feet, howling like a monkey.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I must have missed it about the WC guys in MMA. Do they fight like the traditional WC or they fight like MMA?
> 
> If they start fighting like MMA, it's a different story, then it's not WC. Remember, those CMA people are very STUBBORN, they believe in following the tradition and history, that's the reason they got beat over and over. If they are humble and learn the things that WORK, sky is the limit. That's how it should be.


It's WC if they use WC principles, which are uber simple short range boxing.  Snake, Crane, and Dragon.  It's not rocket science.  I could teach you in a day, dude.

There's even a pro boxer LEGEND on Martial Talk who has been posting about how he discovered the overlap between heavyweight boxing and Wing Chun!

And it depends on the tradition.  There are really stubborn CMA schools out there that do get beaten over and over (chances are, they do not have San Shou/San Da teams and just decided to take on a fight they were destined to lose, which was Xiaodong's point), and there are schools that don't, that are definitely Chinese in flavor, and have hundreds of years of full contact tradition.  These are some of the toughest people on the planet, standing or gruond.


Alan0354 said:


> Chinese writing and painting are very good also..............BUT their music standard...........BAD too, this is speaking as a musician myself. I am a lot better as a musician than MA I can ever be. I was professional and won a lot of competition in HK in the 70s!!!!


awww...well there's only so much you can do with 5 tones.  Please keep in mind I know nothing about Chinese music other than their use of pentatonics.


Alan0354 said:


> I just call it as it is. They want to brag, go win some fights in the octagon with* their tradition style*, then we talk. *Don't fight like MMA and claim they are CMA*. I know there are good Chinese MMA fighter, I just saw a few fights not too long ago. They are MMA, they are very good too. AND please don't start telling me CMA have all the moves in MMA 1000 years ago!!!!B


But there is no such style as "MMA", it's a mix of anything, truly.  Even if you go to an MMA school, it's probably going to be a mix of traditional martial arts and modern training equipment/routines.  There are MMA schools that teach CMA too, because a lot of MA comes from CMA (it's really, really old).

I know THREE professional MMA fighters and al three were heavy CMA guys.

And again, China developed boxing and wrestling 4,000+ years ago (in writing, but it's probably millions of years old).  Brazil wasn't a country until 1822, but I'm sure there's a South American boxing/wrestling ancestor in that continent too.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's WC if they use WC principles, which are uber simple short range boxing.  Snake, Crane, and Dragon.  It's not rocket science.  I could teach you in a day, dude.
> 
> There's even a pro boxer LEGEND on Martial Talk who has been posting about how he discovered the overlap between heavyweight boxing and Wing Chun!
> 
> ...


The definition of MMA is mixing different styles, taking the best of every style and put them together. CMA put a lot of emphasis on their unique moves, like WC sticky hands, Choi Le Fut has it's way of punching, and there is eagle claw, prey mentis and all that with very distinct way. If they start mixing in more useful stuff, it's an improvement, BUT that's not what they are SO PROUD of and all the talks about STICKING to tradition and claim superior. So it can either MMA where it's practical or following their pride and stuck with everything traditional.

So don't talk big about their tradition and then use outside of their style and go fight. They want to call themselves modern style and start learning from others to get better, MORE BLESSING for them. BUT you know that's not how it works with CMA.


Like my TKD school in the 80s, my teacher taught Bruce Lee kick boxing style, not TKD even though it's TKD school. BUT he NEVER once talk about how great is TKD and all that. At the time, it's very advance in 1984. He even invited JJ instructor once a while to teach the class. This is the kind of good school I honor. BUT you know most of the CMA school are NOT like this. They talk a lot, straight tradition. My school was like MMA of the older days combining boxing and new TKD kicks of Bruce Lee, how many CMA school can say that?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The definition of MMA is mixing different styles, taking the best of every style and put them together. CMA put a lot of emphasis on their unique moves, like WC sticky hands, Choi Le Fut has it's way of punching, and there is eagle claw, prey mentis and all that with very distinct way. If they start mixing in more useful stuff, it's an improvement, BUT that's not what they are SO PROUD of and all the talks about STICKING to tradition and claim superior. So it can either MMA where it's practical or following their pride and stuck with everything traditional.
> 
> So don't talk big about their tradition and then use outside of their style and go fight. They want to call themselves modern style and start learning from others to get better, MORE BLESSING for them. BUT you know that's not how it works with CMA.
> 
> ...


How much CMA have you actually trained Alan?

You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint, that's just me being honest.  WC Sticking hands, Choy Li Fut strikes...are all MMA 101.  There's nothing unique in any CMA style (not talking modern Wushu).

Now if you've only seen movies and TV shows, I can understand why you feel this strongly.  If you had trained in a good school with a comp team, I don't think you would.

Why the strong bias?  Maybe you just need to train in a good CMA school that does actually does Sanda?  It's not that hard to find those schools.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> How much CMA have you actually trained Alan?
> 
> You seem to have a very narrow viewpoint, that's just me being honest.  WC Sticking hands, Choy Li Fut strikes...are all MMA 101.


Almost a year in WC and White Brow. BUT I knew a lot of people that trained and even taught in Hong Kong. That's how they are, tradition. You have to put the hand in exactly that position and body exactly like that...........

Seen too many of them through out the years.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Almost a year in WC and White Brow. BUT I knew a lot of people that trained and even taught in Hong Kong. That's how they are, tradition. You have to put the hand in exactly that position and body exactly like that...........
> 
> Seen too many of them through out the years.


I hear you.  They must seem very entrenched over there.  I don't like those schools either, but I learned to accept them as low hanging fruit 

I watched Kill Bill Vol 2 again last night, I remembered learning Bak Mei, and the meaning of Saam Chuen, which is kind of like Yut Chuen.  What if your opponent is 3, 1, or zero inches away!

Started busting out shadowboxing Snake and Mantis style.  The dude next to me almost dropped his beer when I dropped to the ground and popped back up with a BJJ technical standup.

Crane style eyeball snatching scene is still gross.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ha ha.  I think I would need some beginner lessons.


Same


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I hear you.  They must seem very entrenched over there.  I don't like those schools either, but I learned to accept them as low hanging fruit
> 
> I watched Kill Bill Vol 2 again last night, I remembered learning Bak Mei, and the meaning of Saam Chuen, which is kind of like Yut Chuen.  What if your opponent is 3, 1, or zero inches away!
> 
> ...


Are you Chinese?

I so wish CMA can win. Just find ways to make it work against grappling and ground game. I don't like to keep trashing CMA, but they really need to be humble and admit they don't have all the answers and there's nothing wrong to learn the modern ways and EVOLVE. That it doesn't matter who invented first, just evolve, improve and go win before talking.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> If your buddy is choking someone outside the bar, you’d still soccer kick the guy he’s choking. So instead of just getting kicked, the guy is getting choked too.
> 
> In short, fighting in the street is a bad idea, and should be avoided.


What I said was, if someone is choking my buddy, then I will kick them. Yeah fighting is a bad idea. Unless it’s not.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I doubt I’d get involved in something like that. If I think it looks sketchy, I’d notify the police. There’s self defense, protecting others, and then there’s trying to be Batman without a costume. That can get you killed.


I've done it before but not for a woman.  An adult was trying to pick a fight with a teenager (I was in Australia at the time).  I saw the thing go down from the beginning and to the end.  I step in and protected the teen.  I think seeing it from beginning to end is what made it easier for me to step in.   I didn't call the police then because I didn't have a cell phone.  I would have to do a lot of analysis for me to do the same for a woman.  Domestic disputes can be really nasty and depending on what happens between me and the guy causing the problems.  The woman may actually turn on me.  There is definitely no one answer that will fit all scenarios.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Does anybody else get spammed with the VShred dude when trying to watch these?  Telling me how my cardio will never help me lose weight and I need his program?
> 
> Trying to figure out if it's just me.


Delete all of your cookies


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Eh, I doubt I’d get involved in something like that. If I think it looks sketchy, I’d notify the police. There’s self defense, protecting others, and then there’s trying to be Batman without a costume. That can get you killed.


Pimps don’t take kindly to “Captain save a ho“ coming to the rescue. I promise that can get you whipped by him and the ho at the same time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> How Western Wrestlers Changed Judo - Fight Times Magazine
> 
> 
> “Judo is a source of national pride in Japan, where the martial art originated.” (Cheng, 2012) But as larger, stronger foreigners, often with a wrestling background, entered the sport, the Japanese world-domination of Judo was challenged. Over the last fifty years judo has seen many rule changes...
> ...


Thanks for showing this picture. This was the 1st technique that I learned to against shooting. When your opponent shoots in, you use overhook and leg lift to throw him down.

I have never seen this shooting counter used in UFC.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Pimps don’t take kindly to “Captain save a ho“ coming to the rescue. I promise that can get you whipped by him and the ho at the same time.


yeah that's a good example of me calling the police and recording video on my phone.  The last thing I want to do is to waste my life on someone who wouldn't appreciate the cost.


Jimmythebull said:


> This is the sad reality & against a gang it's difficult.


Wow...That was a big storm.  I didn't want the chocolate before, now I definitely don't want it.  I hate to see what short changing them would do lol.  But seriously that's a tough situation to be in.  I'm not taking up for the teens.  Nothing justifies what they did.  But I am curious to know if words were exchanged.  I wonder if this was one of those situations where you just take an insult, be punked and walked away. I have a difficult time seeing this happening out of the blue.  From the news, the manager went out to tell them to leave.  Yeah my job doesn't pay me enough money to do such things.  It would have been a police call off the back

"According to Plano police, two young boys, between 10 and 13 years old, were trying to sell chocolate bars to customers inside the restaurant when employees asked them to leave."  Dang are those ages right? 10?  I can see 13 but 10?  I wonder if the ages are why no one try to punch the kids?  Adults don't want to go to jail for hitting kids. 

Oh by the way @Alan0354 if you want to know when BJJ doesn't work. This is it right here.  Situations like this you want to really have as much mobility as possible.  No matter how effective it is in MMA, It won't get you out of these type of situations.  This isn't a put down on BJJ. It's just that ground fighting is wrong plan for this situation.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Thanks for showing this picture. This was the 1st technique that I learned to against shooting. When your opponent shoots in, you use overhook and leg lift to throw him down.
> 
> I have never seen this shooting counter used in UFC.
> 
> View attachment 29158


I'm trying to figure how this outcome came about. I wonder what the shoot was targeting


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm trying to figure how this outcome came about. I wonder what the shoot was targeting







Your opponent's both hand tries to grab your leading leg, or your both legs. You use stealing step to move your left leg behind your right leg (out of your opponent's attacking path). You use right arm overhook and right leg lift (or spring) to lift his left leg. You borrow your opponent's forward momentum and throw him forward.

Same footwork, same overhook, just add leg lift (or sping) into it.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Are you Chinese?
> 
> I so wish CMA can win. Just find ways to make it work against grappling and ground game. I don't like to keep trashing CMA, but they really need to be humble and admit they don't have all the answers and there's nothing wrong to learn the modern ways and EVOLVE. That it doesn't matter who invented first, just evolve, improve and go win before talking.


No but I can cook 8 different Chinese styles, before we even get to Kung fu.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 16, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Delete all of your cookies


Ok.

I just baked a pumpkin gut and almond sweet bread (gluten, vegan, dairy free).  

Probably why I ended up getting spammed by the VShred dude.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know THREE professional MMA fighters and al three were heavy CMA guys.


My MMA coach was a CMA practitioner before he got into BJJ and MMA, and it still influences his fighting style. It‘s just part of his personal blend along with BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> View attachment 29159
> 
> Your opponent's both hand tries to grab your leading leg, or your both legs. You use stealing step to move your left leg behind your right leg (out of your opponent's attacking path). You use right arm overhook and right leg lift (or spring) to lift his left leg. You borrow your opponent's forward momentum and throw him forward.
> 
> Same footwork, same overhook, just add leg lift (or sping) into it.


Thank you


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 16, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Ok.
> 
> I just baked a pumpkin gut and almond sweet bread (gluten, vegan, dairy free).
> 
> Probably why I ended up getting spammed by the VShred dude.


I deserve that.  Delete your web browser cookies.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2022)

RedDevil said:


> Only for Sport & fitness.


Thanks.  This is important to keeping the thread on track.   Some of us come from a self defense focus and like a bunch of old men, we tend to drift in thought.  Lol


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 17, 2022)

Another Central Police College SC demo to share.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 18, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Judo could have done it, but Kano's hang-ups on ground grappling, and the push for Judo in the Olympics following WW2 stopped that from happening. It was the Brazilians who took Judo to its most logical stylistic conclusion.


Eliminating two thirds of the founder's vision for the art (Kata and stand up) is the most logical conclusion?


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Another Central Police College SC demo to share.


You are confused between movie and real life. You think people will attack one at a time, the others just stand around waiting for their turn? Come on, give me a break!!!! This is worst than catching fish in the river bare hand to practice eagle craw.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You are confused between movie and real life. You think people will attack one at a time, the others just stand around waiting for their turn? Come on, give me a break!!!! This is worst than catching fish in the river bare hand to practice eagle craw.


Demostration is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you the opportunity. The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it. 

The question is do you have the skill and ability to finish it?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 18, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Demostration is 1/2 fake and 1/2 real. The 1/2 fake part is your opponent gives you the opportunity. The 1/2 real part is you have to finish it.
> 
> The question is do you have the skill and ability to finish it?


This is what a lot of people don't get.

Chinese invented modern warfare.  Their magic is the darkest.  Basic Sun Tzu.

I just watched Backdraft again.  And a little Overboard.  So I'm in this mood.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You are confused between movie and real life. You think people will attack one at a time, the others just stand around waiting for their turn? Come on, give me a break!!!!


As strange as it may be, sometimes that's exactly what happens when you are standing on your feet.  It's usually not until you hit the or look like you are going to the ground that you get swarmed.  In terms of guy that has to fight many.   He can only fight one person at time,  So if he can't run away then he'll need to move in a way that will allow him to punch one of the multiple targets one at a time.  The demo video shows the various things that may happen when you get into a fight against multiple people.  Like someone grabbing your leg or someone coming from behind and grabbing you are all realistic things that may happen.  I don't know what you would do if you got jumped.  I still can sprint, but I'm probably not going to beat anyone at 100 yard sprint and still have enough breath to fight.   Not yet anyway.






If you get into the situation where more than one person is on you, then it's probably because you stopped moving or you are on the ground.  Even the beat downs I've seen in person started off as one attacker at a time then when the victim falls to the ground or gets tied up, that's when the others will jump in.  If you look on youtube for "*basketball fights in park*," you'll see just how dangerous it can be to be on the ground. 

I've seen similar in 5 vs 5 MMA fights.  Where it was down to 2vs1 or 3vs1.  I can't remember, but the 1 guy beat the other guys one at a time he kept punching and moving. They tried to attack at the same time but it was hard to do against a moving target.  My brother was jumped twice that I know of. He's an excellent wrestler, and not a weak guy at all.    The first time I heard that he got jumped it was when he was at the beach with friends.  He fell to the ground and got swarmed.  He said all he could do at that point was to protect his head while they were kicking him.    The second time he got jumped,  it was at a club.  He got tied up with the 1st guy and that's when the 2nd guy tried to sucker punch him.  He got out of that situation by using his footwork.  When we are young we can out run people.  As we get older I think it's more important to know how to keep distance.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is what a lot of people don't get.
> 
> Chinese invented modern warfare.  Their magic is the darkest.  Basic Sun Tzu.
> 
> I just watched Backdraft again.  And a little Overboard.  So I'm in this mood.


 No sir. I do not know Oily Dragon lol


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 18, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No sir. I do not know Oily Dragon lol


The Albatross begins with his vengeance.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> get into a fight against multiple people.


When American Combat Shuai Chiao Association was formed, one of the board directors suggested that "one against many" should be part of the 1st degree black belt test requirement. Other board directors believed it was too much to ask for a 1st degree black belt. After the final vote, this requirement was not part of the 1st degree BB test requirement.

Do people know that "one against many" is part of the BB test requirement in any MA system? Do you think it should be?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Do you think it should be?


It should be. It's something that could happen and did happen to people.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 19, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When American Combat Shuai Chiao Association was formed, one of the board directors suggested that "one against many" should be part of the 1st degree black belt test requirement. Other board directors believed it was too much to ask for a 1st degree black belt. After the final vote, this requirement was not part of the 1st degree BB test requirement.
> 
> Do people know that "one against many" is part of the BB test requirement in any MA system? Do you think it should be?


We don’t have belts but we did do 2vs1 for 1 minute rounds with cup and mouth guard and 4 ounce gloves. People got hurt and blood was on the floor.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 19, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> We don’t have belts but we did do 2vs1 for 1 minute rounds with cup and mouth guard and 4 ounce gloves. People got hurt and blood was on the floor.


This is the same problem we had at our school. People got hurt.  As far as intensity goes, this has to have some level of restraint. The footwork and escapes can be trained but the actual striking turns into blender of fists.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 19, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is the same problem we had at our school. People got hurt.  As far as intensity goes, this has to have some level of restraint. The footwork and escapes can be trained but the actual striking turns into blender of fists.


Yep, rarely did it go the full minute because it was more like a fight than a match. All the guys involved had been training brothers for years. The Sifu never let anybody watch unless they were invited to the advanced classes and were participating. I broke my foot twice in there getting checked on my kicks.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Eliminating two thirds of the founder's vision for the art (Kata and stand up) is the most logical conclusion?



Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.


This is one of those grey areas.  For GJJ etc I think this is true but (scoot), for the average BJJ school it'll depend on the lineage just like Judo.  You'll find a whole lot of BJJ schools that are comp focused and mostly doing ground, and Judo schools that don't really cover the whole curriculum (which is pretty big) and throwing/falling a lot (and ignoring ancient Judo wisdom like the Pudding Guard).

And then you'll find "Goldilocks" schools that do a good mix of both to the right levels.  That's the school for me.  Not hard to find in 2022 but you have to know what you want.

Kata in Judo afaik are very high level training anyway?  Not something youngins spend their time on much.  

And was it really eliminated?  There are BJJ flowcharts out there showing detailed sequences from guard to submission.


----------



## geezer (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.


Nah.

If kata is used as a series of short drills that build useful attributes and conditioning it's useful....

My son used to train under a great and somewhat quirky wrestling coach, a former Korean Olympic team member who was also a high level instructor in traditional Korean martial arts. He had his wrestlers train solo drills, you know, linked sets of moves that were kinda like short wrestling katas. He coached some really good college and high school wrestlers.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.


The solo drill is just the partner drill witout partner. It can be used to "polish" your skill when partner is not available.

Partner drill:





Solo drill:


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Bjj never eliminated stand up. It did eliminate kata because kata is rather pointless, but stand up? Nah.


Kano believed that it was important to learn Tachi-waza (standing techniques) before ne-waza(ground techniques). He also wanted matches to start from standup, not on the knees. This is because HE believed the concepts of judo were best taught (and experienced) in the Tachi-waza phase.  For you to decide the natural evolution of judo is to ignore the precepts of its founder is delightfully ignorant, much like your claim kata is useless.  In BJJ, no doubt. In Judo? It is one of the pillars of the art.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Kata in Judo afaik are very high level training anyway?


Eh, sort of. In many countries, demonstration of the nage no kata (forms of throwing) begins at green belt. There are three sections to the kata, you must demonstrate the first section for green belt, the first two sections for blue belt and all three for brown belt. The other katas in judo are generally reserved for black belts, although we often studied the goshin jutsu (forms of self defense) kata in class as mudansha.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

geezer said:


> Nah.
> 
> If kata is used as a series of short drills that build useful attributes and conditioning it's useful....
> 
> My son used to train under a great and somewhat quirky wrestling coach, a former Korean Olympic team member who was also a high level instructor in traditional Korean martial arts. He had his wrestlers train solo drills, you know, linked sets of moves that were kinda like short wrestling katas. He coached some really good college and high school wrestlers.



It can be useful, but it isn't optimal.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is one of those grey areas.  For GJJ etc I think this is true but (scoot), for the average BJJ school it'll depend on the lineage just like Judo.  You'll find a whole lot of BJJ schools that are comp focused and mostly doing ground, and Judo schools that don't really cover the whole curriculum (which is pretty big) and throwing/falling a lot (and ignoring ancient Judo wisdom like the Pudding Guard).
> 
> And then you'll find "Goldilocks" schools that do a good mix of both to the right levels.  That's the school for me.  Not hard to find in 2022 but you have to know what you want.
> 
> ...



The issue is that stand-up as shown in Judo is a bit overrated and highly venerated for no apparent reason other than people's high regard for Judo itself. When you break things down, Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect, which is why Judo changed its rules to push wrestling out of its art before it completely supplanted it.

When you add BJJ/MMA grappling to that wrestling base, you end up with the butt-scooting and the low entries because those have been shown to be ridiculously effective takedown methods for grappling comps. They're definitely not as effective against a striking opponent, but against a highly skilled wrestler or a judoka, butt-scooting (seated guard) is stupidly effective at shutting down their game. That's why you're seeing what you're seeing in competitive grappling.

In terms of self-defense, I would frankly recommend wrestling over Judo in that department as well. Judo's throws are simply too sophisticated and require a high skill ceiling that forces you into only having a couple of "go-to" throws, whereas I've seen high school wrestlers take people down with a myriad of techniques.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Kano believed that it was important to learn Tachi-waza (standing techniques) before ne-waza(ground techniques). He also wanted matches to start from standup, not on the knees. This is because HE believed the concepts of judo were best taught (and experienced) in the Tachi-waza phase.  For you to decide the natural evolution of judo is to ignore the precepts of its founder is delightfully ignorant, much like your claim kata is useless.  In BJJ, no doubt. In Judo? It is one of the pillars of the art.


I didn't decide anything. BJJ as it is now is the natural process of Judo's evolution without interference from either Kano or the IJF. Its a grappling system that absorbs concepts from multiple disciplines and synthesizes them into a workable system. That's pretty much exactly what Kano did when he created Judo in the 19th century. The problem is that he began to purposely interfere with the system because it naturally began to veer in directions he didn't like. This is why we have the system of Judo we have today; A system that doesn't even allow you to grab your partner's pants to throw them regardless of its potential strategic advantage.

What sort of art would Judo have been today if Kano had embraced the Kosen branch instead of pushing for stand-up? What sort of art would Judo have been if leglocks were allowed to be explored rather than banned in the 1920s? What sort of art would Judo have been if wrestling was embraced in competition instead of blocked?

An art that looks A LOT like Bjj.

I certainly understand that Kano wanted his baby to be a certain way, but frankly parents sometimes don't know what's best for their offspring.

To be fair, the Gracies tried to pull this with BJJ as well, but fortunately, the art was too broad and too diverse by that point for them to be able to control its direction in the way they wanted, so now they, like other branches have to go with the art's evolutionary flow.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> The issue is that stand-up as shown in Judo is a bit overrated and highly venerated for no apparent reason other than people's high regard for Judo itself. When you break things down, Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect, which is why Judo changed its rules to push wrestling out of its art before it completely supplanted it.
> 
> When you add BJJ/MMA grappling to that wrestling base, you end up with the butt-scooting and the low entries because those have been shown to be ridiculously effective takedown methods for grappling comps. They're definitely not as effective against a striking opponent, but against a highly skilled wrestler or a judoka, butt-scooting (seated guard) is stupidly effective at shutting down their game. That's why you're seeing what you're seeing in competitive grappling.
> 
> In terms of self-defense, I would frankly recommend wrestling over Judo in that department as well. Judo's throws are simply too sophisticated and require a high skill ceiling that forces you into only having a couple of "go-to" throws, whereas I've seen high school wrestlers take people down with a myriad of techniques.


I never see Judo put a lot of effort in ground game, sure we learned a little, but we did not practice in sparring. It is proven when being thrown down, that's the beginning only, not the end of the fight.

I would not even think about Judo for self defense. If I were to learn grappling, Wrestling and BJJ would be on top of the list, forget Judo or those chinese stuffs that just Judo.

I am surprised people still don't see ground work after 30 years of dominating the UFC. Like I said many many times, get into the octagon and proof it, don't sit back and pull old videos and armchair quarterbacking.

 Man, those chinese wrestling(JUDO) will be KILL, SLAUGHTERED in the octagon. Won't know what hit them. they think it's like in the movie!!! Again, have the balls, get into the octagon. One win speaks a 1000 words, they'll be famous, rich. Stop making excuses.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I never see Judo put a lot of effort in ground game, sure we learned a little, but we did not practice in sparring. It is proven when being thrown down, that's the beginning only, not the end of the fight.
> 
> I would not even think about Judo for self defense. If I were to learn grappling, Wrestling and BJJ would be on top of the list, forget Judo or those chinese stuffs that just Judo.
> 
> ...



Well yeah, it's the classic tradition versus just going with what works situation. When you ignore efficiency for tradition/ "honoring the founder" you start running into serious problems because you're ignoring the natural evolution of your fighting style.  Stuff like this;







Is highly intuitive and effective. I can teach a student this set up rather quickly and they can effectively use it in a SD situaiton or competition in a month or two of practice. That set up is COMPLETELY banned in Judo practice. You do that in a Judo dojo and you're getting tossed out to the street.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Well yeah, it's the classic tradition versus just going with what works situation. When you ignore efficiency for tradition/ "honoring the founder" you start running into serious problems because you're ignoring the natural evolution of your fighting style.  Stuff like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ha ha, that's why they get their butt whooped and good!!! Not only tradition and all, I have a strong suspicion that they only want moves that are *graceful and pretty* or have to be *SPECIAL*. What you show here is UGLY!!! They look down on that. Can you imagine how ugly is sprawing? They rather get killed than to practice the most effective way of take down defense. Rather work on foot work and all that hopelessly can be fast enough to walk away from a simple shoot. Problem is the shoot is so simple and fast that you cannot foot work away that easy. But sprawing is so ugly, like a crab.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Wrestling is simply the superior method in just about every respect,


Wrestling is not superior than Judo. Wrestling is just a subset of Judo. Judo has throw and take down. Wrestling only has take down. The throw is hard to train because you have to deal with your opponent's weight. The take down that you don't have to deal with your opponent's weight is much easier to train.

The day when everybody only train pull guard and jump guard, the day that the throwing art will die.

The day when MMA has envolved into "1 against many", or "many against many", the day that the ground game will die.

If you have ever involved with gang fight (many against many), you won't think that gropund game will be that useful.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Wrestling is not superior than Judo. Wrestling is just a subset of Judo. Judo has throw and take down. Wrestling only has take down. The throw is hard to train because you have to deal with your opponent's weight. The take down that you don't have to deal with your opponent's weight is much easier to train.
> 
> The day when everybody only train pull guard and jump guard, the day that the throwing art will die.


Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.

Now, don't make excuses, just fight.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> You do that in a Judo dojo and you're getting tossed out to the street.


Why do they get tossed out?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.
> 
> Now, don't make excuses, just fight.


How about just get into a gang fight that "many against many" with no gun? If I send out 3 guys and you send out 3 guys. We meet in a park and have "3 against 3" group fight.

You will quickly find out that "hit and run with mobility" is much more important than the ground skill.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.
> 
> Now, don't make excuses, just fight.


I think what Wang is saying is like saying.   Judo is the book and wrestling is a chapter in that book.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about just get into a gang fight that "many against many" with no gun? If I send out 5 guys and you send out 5 guys. We meet in a park and have "5 against 5" game.


Don't talk about me, you keep showing those "catching fish with hands to practice eagle claw". You have the balls, and you believe what you said. Try audition into the octagon. Win some fights, then you'll be famous and earn money.

Do NOT make excuses, if you truly believe your stuffs work, PROOF it.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think what Wang is saying is like saying.   Judo is the book and wrestling is a chapter in that book.


Yeh, but that chapter is going to whoop his butt.

BAN me, I don't care, this is the kind of mentality that put CMA behind and put us CHinese in shame for being so behind and keep getting our butts kicked instead of be HUMBLE and LEARN.

The worst is keep making EXCUSES. Go win a fight. Don't get your butt kicked. It's a laughing stalk now.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Don't talk about me, ... Do NOT make excuses, if you truly believe your stuffs work, PROOF it.


You don't want people to talk about you. But you want others to proof it for you.

Why don't you proof yourself first? Have you ever competed any MA tournament in your life time? What's your MA tournament record?

You keep saying that MMA is everything. I have just indicated to you that if we change the MMA rule into "3 persons fight against each othert", the ground game will no longer be respected.

Here is a video of "many against many".


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you proof yourself first? Have you ever competed any MA tournament in your life time? What's your MA tournament record?


I don't have to, I am not glorify anything. You are the one that put out of the funny stuff. You have to proof, not me. GO WIN A FIGHT.

IF YOU ARE TOO OLD AND YOU ARE A TEACHER, TRAIN YOUR STUDENT TO GO FIGHT.

One win speaks 1000 words. You'll be rich and famous. IF YOU CAN DO IT.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you proof yourself first? Have you ever competed any MA tournament in your life time? What's your MA tournament record?
> 
> You keep saying that MMA is everything. I have just indicated to you that if we change the MMA rule into "3 persons fight against each othert", the ground game will no longer be respected.
> 
> Here is a video of "many against many".


See, you keep talking about me, you glorify CMA, everything has to be different. You want to proof that, have the BALLS to challenge the MMA. 


Your kind of multiple people fighting one in your video? In what world you are from, everyone wait for their turn? You are so out of touch it's not funny.

You're too old, train one of your student and beat up the MMA, you'll be famous and rich. That you dont' have to make any more excuses why you are too old, no money to train, too many rules and all that.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Talk is CHEAP, go win a fight, you'll get slaughtered.
> 
> Now, don't make excuses, just fight.


Just out of curiousity, what exactly is your fight record? I mean, if it's the only thing that matters, you must have one.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why do they get tossed out?


Because under judo rules, leg locks are not allowed EXCEPT in kata.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Just out of curiousity, what exactly is your fight record? I mean, if it's the only thing that matters, you must have one.


No I don't, I just watch. You don't need to have fighting record to SEE. You think this is still in the 19th century? we have videos, youtube to see CMA being butt kicked.

It's ok to be beated, it's A SHAME people keep making excuses instead of being HUMBLE and learn.

Look at Xu Xiaodong Whooped all the CMA, he's not even that good. All the BS.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> See, you keep talking about me,


I will keep talking about you until you stop talking about others.

- Have you ever competed in MA tournaments in your life time? 
- What's your MA tournament record?


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> I certainly understand that Kano wanted his baby to be a certain way, but frankly parents sometimes don't know what's best for their offspring.


Yeah, I mean parents would encourage their offspring to stay in school, learn the whole system, not just one third of it.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No I don't, I just watch. You don't need to have fighting record to SEE. You think this is still in the 19th century? we have videos, youtube to see CMA being butt kicked.
> 
> It's ok to be beated, it's A SHAME people keep making excuses instead of being HUMBLE and learn.


So it is not necessary for you to have a fight record, just be a spectator, but in order for anybody to disagree with you (right or wrong), THEY have to have a fight record?  Solid logic you're working with.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I will keep talking about you until you stop talking about others.
> 
> - Have you ever competed in MA tournaments in your life time?
> - What's your MA tournament record?


It's not me that has to proof, how about you going up in the Octagon? 

Why do you think people has to be good to call those fake ones out?


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> So it is not necessary for you to have a fight record, just be a spectator, but in order for anybody to disagree with you (right or wrong), THEY have to have a fight record?  Solid logic you're working with.


Yes, it's so simple to see who's butt being kicked. Anyone that want to glorify their's are better need to proof.

Don't come here and talk about all the fancy stuffs unless you can proof you can win.

I don't have anything I can win, I don't talk as if I know. Only thing I know is who's butt being kicked.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's not me that has to proof, how about you going up in the Octagon?
> 
> Why do you think people has to be good to call those fake ones out?


Are you calling me "fake one"?


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Are you calling me "fake one"?


You talk a lot, so it's time for you to proof.

Like I said, if you are too old, train a young one to win to proof your point.

Don't get personal, it's so easy, in a fight, only one of the two gets to walk out. It's easy to tell without being an expert. I am NOT an expert. I just look at who raise their hands and who is lying on the floor.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You talk a lot, so it's time for you to proof.
> 
> Like I said, if you are too old, train a young one to win to proof your point.


I don't have to proof myself any more. I was 3 times US heavy weight Chinese wrestling champion back in 1982, 1983, and 1984. In 1984 I competed in super heavy weight and won the 1st place. 

Alex is my student's Paul's student. He has 21-3 Sanda record under his belt.


----------



## frank raud (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't talk as if I know


Have you read what you post?


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

I am so proud I saw a few Chinese fighting in UFC and doing well fighting as MMA


Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't have to proof myself any more. I was 3 times US heavy weight Chinese wrestling champion back in 1982, 1983, and 1984. In 1984 I competed in super heavy weight and won the 1st place.
> 
> Alex is my student's Paul's student. He has 21-3 Sanda record under his belt.


This is 2022, world of MA changed in the 90s. What is the 80s? You fought in Chinese stuffs in the 80s!!!!

He fought in MMA? those are nothing. Show me the ground game.

go challenge in UFC. This is what matter.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Have you read what you post?


Every bit of it.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is 2022, world of MA changed in the 90s. What is the 80s?
> 
> He fought in MMA?


He fought in Sanda. You respect MMA, but you have no respect to Sanda. Why?

Sanda + ground game = MMA.


----------



## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Wrestling is not superior than Judo. Wrestling is just a subset of Judo. Judo has throw and take down. Wrestling only has take down. The throw is hard to train because you have to deal with your opponent's weight. The take down that you don't have to deal with your opponent's weight is much easier to train.



Which is what makes wrestling the superior method in general. Judo certainly has its place, and when done well, it is glorious to behold. However, if we're talking about competition and self defense, I simply have to give the edge to wrestling. It's FAR more intuitive and versatile.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> The day when everybody only train pull guard and jump guard, the day that the throwing art will die.
> 
> The day when MMA has envolved into "1 against many", or "many against many", the day that the ground game will die.
> 
> If you have ever involved with gang fight (many against many), you won't think that gropund game will be that useful.


Well if we're talking self-defense, turning your back to someone while performing a sholder throw or a hip toss is a good way to get shanked. Even if they're unarmed, heaven help you if your throw fails.

Just saying.


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## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Why do they get tossed out?



Those techniques are banned in Judo randori and competition.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> He fought in Sanda. You respect MMA, but you have no respect to Sanda. Why?
> 
> Sanda + ground game = MMA.


Go fight in UFC!!! Why are you keep talking? Go!!! Go win a fight in UFC!!!


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Which is what makes wrestling the superior method in general. Judo certainly has its place, and when done well, it is glorious to behold. However, if we're talking about competition and self defense, I simply have to give the edge to wrestling. It's FAR more intuitive and versatile.
> 
> 
> Well if we're talking self-defense, turning your back to someone while performing a sholder throw or a hip toss is a good way to get shanked. Even if they're unarmed, heaven help you if your throw fails.
> ...


I don't think he has any idea. That's why I discount Judo. His is all Judo. He step into the octagon and he'll find out really fast.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Just go audition in UFC, you can even get in, then we can talk more. Quit the catching fish with bare hand.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Go fight in UFC!!! Why are you keep talking? Go!!! Go win a fight in UFC!!!


You go fight in UFC. I send my guys to fight in Sanda.


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## Hanzou (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Yeah, I mean parents would encourage their offspring to stay in school, learn the whole system, not just one third of it.



I studied old-school GJJ for a long time. That old Judo stand-up is in there, but the difference is that the grips are more based around using the body's natural handles instead of utilizing grips from the jacket. I believe that's a relic of Maeda's fights with catch wrestlers, boxers and the like, and being forced to modify Judo to compensate.

There's also some self-defense stuff that seems to be rom turn-of-the-century Jiujitsu and also some interesting hybrid stuff that clearly came from older Judo kata.

With that said, a lot of that is being lost due to the embrace of wrestling. Especially Eastern European-style wrestling, since it blends so well with the modern ground game.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> His is all Judo. He step into the octagon and he'll find out really fast.


If you are talking about me. I don't know any Judo.

As a Chinese, you don't even know the difference between Shuai Chiao and Judo.

I don't know why, but you have so much "hate" against non-MMA person.

A: I train CMA.
X: You need to fight in UFC.
B: I train Karate.
X: You need to fight in UFC.
C: I train TKD.
X: You need to fight in UFC.
D: I train MMA.
X: You are good.
E: I train BJJ.
X: You are good.
...

When all those non-MMA people kill themselves, the world will only have the people that you like.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 20, 2022)

frank raud said:


> Because under judo rules, leg locks are not allowed EXCEPT in kata.


Funny thing man, because I learned leg locks in Judo. Wasn't taught them, figured it out myself, during newaza practice.

30 years later somebody tried to convince me BJJ invented them.

???


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, but that chapter is going to whoop his butt.


I think you are missing the point because you see wrestling and Judo as 2 separate things.  There are different systems of wrestling but a the root is all wrestling. 



Alan0354 said:


> BAN me, I don't care, this is the kind of mentality that put CMA behind and put us CHinese in shame for being so behind and keep getting our butts kicked instead of be HUMBLE and LEARN.


Not sure why what you said would get you Banned.



Alan0354 said:


> I don't care, this is the kind of mentality that put CMA behind and put us CHinese in shame for being so behind and keep getting our butts kicked instead of be HUMBLE and LEARN.


There are a lot of people who train CMA who aren't Chinese.  



Alan0354 said:


> The worst is keep making EXCUSES. Go win a fight. Don't get your butt kicked


Yeah I'm not sure what excuses you are talking about.  I showed my MMA sparring partner a technique and I used it against it in sparring. He was testing it out to see if it would work.  It did. After sparring we had a big laugh about it because we both knew what just happened and that I tried to get him to grab my wrist again.  He never did while I was in that stance.  

I'm very straight forward with all of my sparring partners.  He has out done me in all instances where we went to the ground.  I made no excuse and told him that I would get the best of him one day and that I'll do it without BJJ.   I really do think you are traumatized about your CMA experience and as a result you can't see that there are people who train CMA and they are the opposite of what you claim.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you are talking about me. I don't know any Judo.
> 
> As a Chinese, you don't even know the difference between Shuai Chiao and Judo.
> 
> ...


Why is the UFC afforded this high praise? Why is it superior to other full contact MMA contests?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why is the UFC afforded this high praise? Why is it superior to other full contact MMA contests?


I find this old clip. People trained MA before MMA was born.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Go win a fight. Don't get your butt kicked. It's a laughing stalk now.


I would never hurt someone for the sake of proving you or anyone else wrong.  That's not an excuse because I would be more than willing to fight someone who wants me to prove that CMA works.

It's not an excuse.  I'm just not going to beat on someone for your benefit.  I think others may feel the same way even if they don't do CMA.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Why is the UFC afforded this high praise? Why is it superior to other full contact MMA contests?


It is just an example, you want to go to Ballatore, that's fine, still MMA.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Those techniques are banned in Judo randori and competition.


Ohhhhhh. Some  I can understand but some others make me wonder why the ban. It would only improve ones skills to defend against it..  As much as I don't like ground fighting, my skills won't decrease because I'm defending agait.  Is it a sports issue or a safety issue that they banned it?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

It's funny and so common when anyone challenge those CMA people, first thing they come back is to say how about you, can you fight, proof. It's like one has to be good enough to qualify to have an opinion!!! How about see the one that lie on the stage!!! You can find so many videos and it really becomes the butt of the joke now.

All the talk day in and day out, who's the one need to proof? 30 years, nobody DARE to go into the octagon.......of cage of other MMA competition. It is NOT a Chinese thing, there are Chinese doing MMA and do very well because they learn. I am so proud of them.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You go fight in UFC. I send my guys to fight in Sanda.
> 
> View attachment 29185


Ever try to qualify in UFC? Or other MMA competitions like Ballatore also. UFC is just a generic term to me.

Here are other MMA competitions:
Top 10 Best MMA Organizations (Promotions) in the World Right Now


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It's funny and so common when anyone challenge those CMA people, first thing they come back is to say how about you, can you fight, proof.


This is normal. If I told drop bear that he couldn't fight, then I would expect him to ask the same of me or challenge me.



Alan0354 said:


> . It's like one has to be good enough to qualify to have an opinion!!!


But when some one shares their thoughts you tell them talk is cheap .  Where I come from "Talk is Cheap" means you want to fight me and prove that I can't fight.  It doesn't mean I go fight someone else to show you that I can fight.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 20, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is normal. If I told drop bear that he couldn't fight, then I would expect him to ask the same of me or challenge me.
> 
> 
> But when some one shares their thoughts you tell them talk is cheap .  Where I come from "Talk is Cheap" means you want to fight me and prove that I can't fight.  It doesn't mean I go fight someone else to show you that I can fight.


So anyone that cannot fight you is not qualify to talk and criticize you? That is so CMA. This is *shutting people up by INTIMIDATION.*

World changed, everything is video taped. It is so easy to see who's winning and who's losing in a fight. Just simple as who's on the floor.

Funny China censor Xu Xiaodone because he beat up those CMA masters. So typical. Xu is not even that good, he can't even get into MMA competition.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> So anyone that cannot fight you is not qualify to talk and criticize you? That is so CMA.


You can talk all you want to me.  I know what I can and can't do.  I don't have any problems talking about my limitations and my abilities. I often do so on the forum.  Just know that your mouth can get you into trouble.  Say the same to someone on the street and that "talk is cheap" and you may find someone giving you a beat down.  Not everyone follows the law.  

As for your criticism.  You are the only one that says stuff like that.  Other people I've sparred with and have had conflicts with think higher of my skill set.   

You have never sparred with me nor have you talked to people I spar with.  So you don't know.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 20, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> So anyone that cannot fight you is not qualify to talk and criticize you?


How about this?

A: You need to share your money with the poor.
B: Why don't you do that first?
A: I don't have money to share.
B: So you ask others to share money with the poor, but you are not willing to do it yourself?
A: Are you saying that a person has no money who has no right to talk about "sharing money with the poor"?
B: It's correct according my logic.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 21, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How about this?
> 
> A: You need to share your money with the poor.
> B: Why don't you do that first?
> ...


Whatever you say, It's not my style that people joke about. There are enough joke around. Sad that CMA refuse to listen and resort to imtimidation. It's a lost for China where Chinese are doing so well in a lot of other area other than this.

You believe what you want, I look at the result. There are Chinese very good in MMA and make it to prime time.................. Been 30 years since Gracie, 50 years since Bruce Lee................ Still.............


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 21, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This is what a lot of people don't get.
> 
> Chinese invented modern warfare.  Their magic is the darkest.  Basic Sun Tzu.
> 
> I just watched Backdraft again.  And a little Overboard.  So I'm in this mood.


If people read sun tzu. 90% of it is deceit. When it comes to war/fighting, you have to know how to deceive your opponent, otherwise no matter how much more powerful you are, they can deceive you and win.


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## Hanzou (Oct 21, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ohhhhhh. Some  I can understand but some others make me wonder why the ban. It would only improve ones skills to defend against it..  As much as I don't like ground fighting, my skills won't decrease because I'm defending agait.  Is it a sports issue or a safety issue that they banned it?



Leglocks was a Safety issue. The single Leg Takedown was for comp reasons.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If people read sun tzu. 90% of it is deceit. When it comes to war/fighting, you have to know how to deceive your opponent, otherwise no matter how much more powerful you are, they can deceive you and win.


And in keeping with the idea that wrestling (Chinese or otherwise) is really just a manifestation of the natural world (evolution between fighting apes and all that), it's funny how a lot of people look at wrestling through their own personal lens.  And why deception is a key element for victory: we're all so easy to fool.

However, I'd caution everyone here to consider that for some people, wrestling isn't natural, it's inborn.  It's a kind of fire that burns inside somebody.  Right down to the Frank's Red Hot I just drank out of the bottle, because it's Friday, and Friday is leg day.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 21, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It is just an example, you want to go to Ballatore, that's fine, still MMA.


Ok just curious.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 21, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> Leglocks was a Safety issue. The single Leg Takedown was for comp reasons.


Hmmm how do you feel about leg locks vs SLT in practice or comp? I am always a little afraid of a new guy actually going too hard and giving me a life changing injury. I’m not a skilled grappler, so I’m out of my depth on this topic.


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## Hanzou (Oct 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Hmmm how do you feel about leg locks vs SLT in practice or comp? I am always a little afraid of a new guy actually going too hard and giving me a life changing injury. I’m not a skilled grappler, so I’m out of my depth on this topic.



SLTs are just takedowns, no biggie.

Leglocks are a different matter entirely. I would recommend only doing them with a skilled instructor or practitioner until you’re used to them. I would never recommend two novices doing them unsupervised. If you’re dealing with someone you’re not familiar with, simply tell them “no Leglocks” for that particular roll. If he ignores your request and starts slapping heel hooks and knee bars, I wouldn’t work with that person anymore.

I tend to tap to Leglocks quickly (maybe a little too quickly) because I worry about future mobility and my knee isn’t in the best condition. There are cases of elite competitors having long-term knee damage from the practice, so there’s definitely some risk involved. However, they definitely have a major place in modern grappling and self defense, so I wouldn’t avoid them.


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## HeiLong123 (Oct 21, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am so proud I saw a few Chinese fighting in UFC and doing well fighting as MMA
> 
> This is 2022, world of MA changed in the 90s. What is the 80s? You fought in Chinese stuffs in the 80s!!!!
> 
> ...


Pretty strong opinion for someone that didn’t contribute anything to the fight game as a martial artist.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 21, 2022)

Hanzou said:


> SLTs are just takedowns, no biggie.
> 
> Leglocks are a different matter entirely. I would recommend only doing them with a skilled instructor or practitioner until you’re used to them. I would never recommend two novices doing them unsupervised. If you’re dealing with someone you’re not familiar with, simply tell them “no Leglocks” for that particular roll. If he ignores your request and starts slapping heel hooks and knee bars, I wouldn’t work with that person anymore.
> 
> I tend to tap to Leglocks quickly (maybe a little too quickly) because I worry about future mobility and my knee isn’t in the best condition. There are cases of elite competitors having long-term knee damage from the practice, so there’s definitely some risk involved. However, they definitely have a major place in modern grappling and self defense, so I wouldn’t avoid them.


Thanks for the reply. I saw someone get their knee injured pretty badly from an SLT. Two white belts. Young, big, aggressive vs. 40 something not in great physical condition. An audible pop. Likely MCL and or meniscus tear. It definitely worries me a bit. I’m 51 and my knees are still pretty good, I want them to stay that way. I train and teach gung fu several times weekly, but my schedule precludes as much grappling practice as I would like. It’s fun learning BJJ as a rank beginner, but I hate the gi. How do you feel about no gi BJJ for total beginners?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If people read sun tzu. 90% of it is deceit. When it comes to war/fighting, you have to know how to deceive your opponent, otherwise no matter how much more powerful you are, they can deceive you and win.


Sound like a good plan to me.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thanks for the reply. I saw someone get their knee injured pretty badly from an SLT. Two white belts. Young, big, aggressive vs. 40 something not in great physical condition. An audible pop.


I always make younger people calm down before wrestling with him.  I try to set the pace low so that they calm down lol.  If I can keep it at low intensity level then it makes it easier to work the techniques and it keeps from being about winning or getting the best out of someone.  I do the same for striking as well.  For me personally I wouldn't wrestle with someone who is "too aggressive on the first date" lol.  

But seriously I've sparred with people who were aggressive and I don't like it.  At that point I might as well fight all out.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 21, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I saw someone get their knee injured pretty badly from an SLT.


Chinese wrestling as a "sport", the ruleset prevents one person from falling on top of the other person (for the safe issue). This is why Chinese wrestling doesn't have ground game.

One time when my teacher wrestled with his opponent, his opponent digged his fingers into my teacher's upper leg and cause some bruise mark. When my teacher threw him, my teacher fell on top of him on purpose. After that round, my teacher's gang and his opponent's gang got into a group fist fight.

In Chinese wrestling, the rule make it safe to play. This is not allowed (drop weight on your opponent).







This is allowed (roll over your opponent's body).


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## Hanzou (Oct 22, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thanks for the reply. I saw someone get their knee injured pretty badly from an SLT. Two white belts. Young, big, aggressive vs. 40 something not in great physical condition. An audible pop. Likely MCL and or meniscus tear. It definitely worries me a bit. I’m 51 and my knees are still pretty good, I want them to stay that way.



This is part of the reason many Bjj schools have their novice students begin the roll from their knees. The possibility of injury from rapid takedowns is a real thing. You have to train takedowns though, so you just gotta be very careful.



Wing Woo Gar said:


> I train and teach gung fu several times weekly, but my schedule precludes as much grappling practice as I would like. It’s fun learning BJJ as a rank beginner, but I hate the gi. How do you feel about no gi BJJ for total beginners?



I think it’s a great idea. Nogi teaches you how to use the natural handles and grips of the body (which imo is better for general grappling and self defense). It’s also much faster paced, which I feel improves your reaction time and increases your overall grappling sensitivity. Finally, Rash guards and shorts or workout pants are FAR cheaper than gis, so that’s great for a beginner who doesn’t want to drop $100+ on a uniform.

I actually prefer nogi to gi, so I’m a little biased.


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