# Kenpo and MMA



## MJS (Nov 6, 2007)

Since the birth of the UFC, it seems like everyone ran out and joined a grappling school to learn this art that was defeating all comers to the ring.  Suddenly schools that normally were only teaching stand up arts, offered grappling as an addition.

That being said..how well do you feel Kenpo fairs to MMA today?  If we look at some of the MMA fighters, they devote their life to training.  Sparring, training for hours a day..basically they eat, sleep and breathing training.  Of course, the average Joe has a full time job, so its hard to devote that kind of attention to ones training.  

But taking all of this into consideration, in your opinion, how would Kenpo hold up?  Does anything need to be changed, added, etc to the art or to your own personal training?

Thoughts?


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## Andrew Green (Nov 6, 2007)

I don't think it would, MMA is a distinct style, Kenpo would do about as well in MMA as TKD would in boxing.  There might be the odd person that can make it work to some extent, but to really max out there potential they'd have to drop the kenpo and start actually training in MMA.


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I don't think it would, MMA is a distinct style, Kenpo would do about as well in MMA as TKD would in boxing. There might be the odd person that can make it work to some extent, but to really max out there potential they'd have to drop the kenpo and start actually training in MMA.


 
Figures I'd leave something out of my initial post.   Just for clarification purposes, I'm not necessarily referring to a Kenpo person entering a UFC, although we could take that into consideration.  I'm speaking overall...as in someone who trains MMA, fighting someone who does Kenpo.  Two people in a bar, one bumps into the other, words exchanged, next thing punches are being thrown.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 6, 2007)

I think at that point its going to largely come down to who trains harder.  On average I'd put my money on the person doing MMA, if for no other reason then they are far more likely to be used to fighting full contact, and likely able to execute a takedown if things aren't going there way.  

But bar fights are unpredictable, too many factors.  There are potential weapons, both people usually have friends there, sucker punches and fould techniques will happen from both sides, etc.

Really it just comes down to who is better conditioned, has more experience, keeps there head and fights smarter.


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## dubljay (Nov 6, 2007)

I would have to agree with Andrew here.  Kenpo and MMA are two very different animals, two very different training concepts.  Even if we exclude the 'pro' MMA guys, the ones that do nothing but train for a living, the disparity in training styles is the issue.  


There have been few kenpo classes I have been in where we worked on hitting a heavy bag for 20 minutes straight, or where the sparing was near full contact.  I'm not saying those are requirements for becoming skilled in defending yourself.  

I'm willing to guess that MMA spends a great deal more time working on those things.  

How many kenpo instructors have been working on a technique with a student, and thrown in some attack out of the ordinary?  What happens?  the student freezes (usually).  I've had several instructors do that to me.. and while I've gotten better at improvising I still hesitate.  Hesitation is bad bad business.

It's hard to think clearly when you've had your bell rung by a well placed punch.  MMA trains that way (again just speculation on my part i don't know how the 'average' MMA class is run)... very few kenpo schools do.

I guess the way I see it is that it's two very different types of training and conditioning.

I'm not saying one is better than the other, that there aren't  kenpoists out there that can hold their own, or that don't train like that.  But as a general rule... not many do.



The rise of MMA has caused me to re-evaluate my own thoughts on training.  In two ways, one for those who actually do train MMA.. they are going to be more rounded than I am, and used to taking more punishment than I am.  That kind of training isn't really for me, but at the same time i acknowledge that there are going to be some out there that do train that way.  The second way the rise of MMA (UFC to be exact) is the fact that it's everywhere in the media.  And now there's a bunch of untrained, back yard wannabe UFCrs out there just waiting to try to execute some of the moves they see on tv, which is probably the most dangerous.


Just my $.02

-Josh


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## MJS (Nov 6, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> I think at that point its going to largely come down to who trains harder. On average I'd put my money on the person doing MMA, if for no other reason then they are far more likely to be used to fighting full contact, and likely able to execute a takedown if things aren't going there way.


 
Good point and one reason why I've made changes to the way I train.  I'm nowhere near how a pro fighter would train, but I have made some changes for the better IMO. 



> But bar fights are unpredictable, too many factors. There are potential weapons, both people usually have friends there, sucker punches and fould techniques will happen from both sides, etc.


 
From that standpoint, I may have to give the edge to Kenpo.  Yes, I'm sure there are some MMA, BJJ, etc. schools that cover that aspect, but I don't believe it'd be on the same level as Kenpo.



> Really it just comes down to who is better conditioned, has more experience, keeps there head and fights smarter.


 
True.


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## Ray (Nov 6, 2007)

Why is there such an interest in comparing this to that (no matter what "this" at that "are")?  Chevy vs. Ford; etc.

Most of the people that you meet in bars, on the streets are not going to be trained, conditioned fighters.  If they do have any kind of experience and want to beat the heck out of you, then there isn't going to be a time keeper or a ref starting or stopping the bout every three minutes -- so may not be prepared for the attack.  One of the good things about bar fights for me is: I don't drink any more and don't go to bars, but when I did most of the violence was sloppy drunk.  

There are too many variables to take two perfectly conditioned and trained fighters from two different disciplines and put them in a true no-holds barred fight to the death.  Everything from biological clocks to a rude driver on the way to the match can affect the performance; to a possible incubating illness which doesn't quite exhibit itself as an illness yet.

Have fun in Kenpo.  Have fun in Mixed-up Martial Arts.  Or whatever it is you do.  You'll likely be in good shape and have a slightly better than average chance of surviving today; plus you'll have a hobby that keeps you off the streets and out of trouble (we hope).

As for lots of people signing up for MMA as opposed to other things; "lots of people" always go with the current fad.  There are those who stick with what they do (even when it is the current fad).  For example, my oldest brother did aikido, karate, scuba, sky-diving and so many other things; but if you have to work for a living then you are limited to what you can do at any one time AND limited by how much time you can devote to becoming "good" at it.


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2007)

The more I read this, the more I think I was a bit misleading in my OP.  Reading dubljays post though, I think he made some great points, those being part of what I was trying to get across on my own.

I wasn't intending this thread to be a my art vs your art debate.  I wasn't intending to make people think that I'm looking to see how Kenpo would fair in the cage.  It should be a no-brainer to everyone that since '93, when the UFC really hit the MA world, full steam ahead, that there are some very obvious training differences.  I don't know about anyone else, but I train for SD.  I would think that Kenpo is well suited for that.   However, as its been said, there are obvious training differences.  Does everyone that trains Kenpo really pick up the pace in the dojo, spar hard, with contact, train some alive methods, and add in some grappling?  



> The rise of MMA has caused me to re-evaluate my own thoughts on training. In two ways, one for those who actually do train MMA.. they are going to be more rounded than I am, and used to taking more punishment than I am. That kind of training isn't really for me, but at the same time i acknowledge that there are going to be some out there that do train that way. The second way the rise of MMA (UFC to be exact) is the fact that it's everywhere in the media. And now there's a bunch of untrained, back yard wannabe UFCrs out there just waiting to try to execute some of the moves they see on tv, which is probably the most dangerous.


 
This is what I'm getting at!!   I work 40hrs a week, sometimes more, and I have a life outside of work and MAs, so I don't train my rear off like a MMA guy would, but there are folks that do.  Technically, that is their 40hr work week.  

Sure, as Ray said, chances are, we're not going to end up fighting a pro MMA fighter, but speaking for myself, I like to train for worst case scenario.  Kinda hard to look at someone and really judge what kind of fighter they are.  But hey, if someone can do that, more power to you.  

Basically, this thread was designed to see who has made any changes, if any at all, if their training to deal with the MMA style fighter.  Have you done any grappling training?  Have you upped your intensity level at all?


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2007)

With the exception of about four fighters, of all the other fighters who fight professional rules I know in the UK have jobs/careers. None of them are able to devote all day every day to training.the also work 40 hours a week and have to fit their training in when they can, even the ones who fight in the top shows here.


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## hemi (Nov 7, 2007)

MJS said:


> I'm speaking overall...as in someone who trains MMA, fighting someone who does Kenpo. Two people in a bar, one bumps into the other, words exchanged, next thing punches are being thrown.


 

In my opinion, who ever made first real contact, well theres your most likely victor. All the training in the world can be negated in a flash if you get hit while off guard and that hit was enough to knock you unconscious. 

Again just my .02


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## Brian Jones (Nov 7, 2007)

Let's go beyond the obvious of sayign it depends on the person. A god Kenpo person wil defeat a bad MMA person evrytime.  And vice versa. I agree that the conditioning and triaing of an MMA stylist could be the deciding factor.
   However let's not forget that the kenpo stylist cna do all sorts of things not allowed in MMA. Strikes to the throat, eye gouges, tearing the ear, full kick to the groin.
  In an all out street fight, I don't think it's all that easy to say who would win.  All sorts of factors wil play into it, conditioning, head smarts, heart and sometimes blind luck.


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## Omar B (Nov 7, 2007)

Really, style usually has little to do with anything in winning a fight.  It comes down to who's spent more time in the dojo/dojang.  There there's also the factor of leaving yourself out there and getting caught, I've seen many great fighters felled by poeple who one would think it outmatched.  Are you well practised?  Can you take a hard blow and keep going?  Those are more important than style to me.

Oh, on a side note, Lyoto Machida is a pretty amazing Shotokan fighter who has yet to have a loss in MMA.  Sure his dad is is Shotokan master but he's an example of any style can do it.  




There's also Serkan Yilmaz who's a Taekwondo fighter in MMA who's pretty brutal too.  Oh, and his moves arre pretty crisp too.


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## Jdokan (Nov 7, 2007)

In answering the original postIt is a crap shootweve seen both sides win in the UFCIn respect to what Brian just posted about Kenpo strikes that are not allowed in the ring... that brings in an entire arsenal of weapons/striking points .


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## Andrew Green (Nov 7, 2007)

Brian Jones said:


> However let's not forget that the kenpo stylist cna do all sorts of things not allowed in MMA. Strikes to the throat, eye gouges, tearing the ear, full kick to the groin.




This line of reasoning is seriously flawed.

There is no metaphysical force that prevents people that train in MMA from executing techniques that are not allowed in competition or sparring.

Kenpo has rules in training and competition as well, are they bound by sacred law to follow them outside of the dojo?

Will divine intervention prevent any TKD person from punching someone in the face?

No, MMA practitioners are just as capable of using foul techniques as anyone.


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## Ray (Nov 7, 2007)

hemi said:


> In my opinion, who ever made first real contact, well theres your most likely victor. All the training in the world can be negated in a flash if you get hit while off guard and that hit was enough to knock you unconscious.


That's what the trainings 'sposed to be for, to make us a little smarter than the average drunk dork in the bar.  Of course if you get someone who throws that punch "in a flash" then he (or she) is likely trained somewhat to throw a punch.


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## MJS (Nov 7, 2007)

Regarding the use of certain strikes.  We all know that its been talked about countless times, but hey, may as well bring it up again.  

For myself, I've always been on the belief that you fight like you train.  I have a ton of techniques against punches of all sorts, grabs, kicks, weapons, etc.  However, I have my 'bread and butter' techniques as well, those being the ones that I feel the most comfortable with.  I've done technique lines, and every time a straight right punch comes in, I do that same tech. over and over.  Comes natural.  It has nothing to do with an inability to do something else, but its the one that comes to mind first.

So..all that said, it does not take a rocket scientist to poke someone in the eye, but if that is something that you normally don't do on a regular basis, is it going to be your 'bread and butter' move?  I don't know..I'm not a MMA fighter.


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## Andrew Green (Nov 7, 2007)

Anybody that trained with eye pokes in sparring would have a class that looked like a bunch of pirates after a short time.

It's impossible to safely train exactly "as you fight", there is however different methods of making a dangerous activity into something that can be trained a few times a week and keep you healthy.

Some people do spar with those techniques, either by simulating or wearing protection (safety googles).  MMA does owe its existance to No rules fights where those things where allowed.  But I suspect they are in the minority at this time.
Now whether pulling techniques but allowing everything in technique lines, or restricting techniques but doing them in hard sparring is better for self-defence is another discussion.  Might even be a different answer for different people.


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## Tez3 (Nov 7, 2007)

I'm sure I've written this before lol but as MMA fighters we also train in self defence ( different classes/training sessions) and a lot of us have other martial interests. I know a couple of fighters who do stick fighting.. which in my opinion is absolutely mental! I train and teach TSD also karate whenever possible. 
I've also said this before too .... that if we are controlled and capable enough to fight to rules you can be very sure we are controlled and capable enough to fight without them!! It's quite right that we don't have a mental ref telling us we can't do 'foul' moves in a SD situation! 
By the way, my instructor told us that before gouging eyes we have to lick our fingers- if you don't the eyeball sticks to the finger..................:ultracool


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2007)

Omar B said:


> Really, style usually has little to do with anything in winning a fight. It comes down to who's spent more time in the dojo/dojang. There there's also the factor of leaving yourself out there and getting caught, I've seen many great fighters felled by poeple who one would think it outmatched. Are you well practised? Can you take a hard blow and keep going? Those are more important than style to me.


 
Yes, and again, this was the reason for this thread.   I've talked about that evil word 'aliveness' in the past and had to duck the flames.  If ones goal isn't SD and the main reason they're training is for fitness, etc., then fine, but if you're training for SD, then I'd think one would want to pick the pace up a bit. 



> Oh, on a side note, Lyoto Machida is a pretty amazing Shotokan fighter who has yet to have a loss in MMA. Sure his dad is is Shotokan master but he's an example of any style can do it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Nice clips!!


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## Omar B (Nov 9, 2007)

Thanks man.  You should check out more clips by both those guys.  Both are examples of talent meaning way more than style.  Oh, and I just love seeing someone dropping back in a traditional stance then laying into someone.


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## MJS (Nov 9, 2007)

Omar B said:


> Thanks man. You should check out more clips by both those guys. Both are examples of talent meaning way more than style. Oh, and I just love seeing someone dropping back in a traditional stance then laying into someone.


 

Yes, those clips were definately a great find!!  I saw the one with Lyoto and Rich Franklin!!  Awesome knee shot!!

See, IMO, this just goes to show that even someone with a traditional background, but has some grappling experience, can still pull off the win!!:ultracool

Mike


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## Omar B (Nov 9, 2007)

Just proves that MMA is not only the realm of the Muay Thai/BJJ/Wrestling/Boxing guys.

Too bad Lyoto does not have his own personal web site (that I can find) because he's tough to keep tabs on being in both Japan and Brazil all the time.


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## Gentle Fist (Nov 12, 2007)

Kenpo could work if the practitioner worked it and trained in it with aliveness in mind (full speed, full contact, and full resistance).  Few schools train this way in Kenpo, Karate, TKD, or most schools in America for that matter.  MMA follows much of the training methods of boxing and BJJ, because they work.  Students spend hours on battle testing everything in BJJ, instead of dissecting each move intellectually like in most traditional arts.  I have studied both Kenpo and BJJ, and I will say learning the training methods of BJJ have helped me develop the concepts I learned in Kenpo further.


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## MJS (Nov 13, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Anybody that trained with eye pokes in sparring would have a class that looked like a bunch of pirates after a short time.
> 
> It's impossible to safely train exactly "as you fight", there is however different methods of making a dangerous activity into something that can be trained a few times a week and keep you healthy.
> 
> ...


 
Oh I agree.  If we poked eyes, kicked the groin, etc., we'd be running out of training partners real fast.   But, like anything, its all how you train it.  The same applies to armlocks and chokes, as I don't think that when we train those, we go all out either.


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