# Reading Parker's Infinite Insights



## Ceicei

Have any of you read all of his five Infinite Insights books within the past year?  If not, did you read them more than a year ago?  

If you didn't read all, did you read some? Why or why not?

For those who did read all five, which part made the most impression and how did it effect your Kenpo?

- Ceicei


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## Michael Billings

I read them in their entirety annually, and often more than that ... not to mention the number of times I go back and look at pieces of them to refer students to.

-Michael


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## Maltair

Would love to read the books, just have not been able to get a hold of them yet. I wonder if the library has them?


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## Rainman

> _Originally posted by Ceicei _
> *Have any of you read all of his five Infinite Insights books within the past year?  If not, did you read them more than a year ago?
> 
> If you didn't read all, did you read some? Why or why not?
> 
> For those who did read all five, which part made the most impression and how did it effect your Kenpo?
> 
> - Ceicei *



They are reference books, so anytime I want to look something up or find an example for a visual I use them.   I am also a student still learning from them so it depends on the information I am studying that week, month or day when they are opened and to which page.  There are many points of reference contained within 3,4, and 5.   They are a must have and must know for anyone who studies American Kenpo.   Most things talked about on these forums can be referenced to one of the Infinite Insights.


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## c2kenpo

I have read the first three boooks and have just not gotten a hold of the last two to finish reading them.I think at the time in my training I became more focused on what my muscle memory was then my brain memory. 
Thanks for the reminder to finish a goal!

Dave Gunzburg
:asian:


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## gman

I bought all 5 shortly after I started taking lessons. When I first read them most of the content was well beyond what I was learning. Then about a month ago I reread them and now it is starting to make some sense. I plan on reading them again in a few months. I like part 5  the most.


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## Goldendragon7

Like others have said... these are Ed Parkers reference books.  This was his lifes works in a nutshell.  I have read, re-read, continue to reference, and expand upon the books all the time.  
I have worn out at least 4 sets of books in the last 18 years. 

:asian:


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## CoolKempoDude

i was a fan of Ed parker sr. I owned and read all his written books 2 or 3 years ago.

i no longer have these books because i gave them to my friend.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I have all five books.  I've read them cover to cover about three or four times.  I've also used them as reference material.

When they first came out, they were pretty advanced as martial arts books go...They had more theories and concepts with more analogies and examples than anything else.  The technique breakdowns were (and still are) the most detailed ever.

Now when I reread these books, I see that Mr. Parker was truly a genious.  But, he was a genious in need of an editor.  To me, the material seems to ramble.  Some of the concepts seem to be a little thin in real world application (Black Dot / White Dot is my un-favorite).  Many of the concepts are explained in a round-about way making it difficult for the uninitiated to grasp.  And, In light of current publishing standards, the illustrations are crude and the photographs primitive.

I think it would be great if a professional author (maybe Tom Bleeker?) collaborated with a few Kenpo Seniors on an update.  A revised and updated Infinite Insights with tighter writing, newer illustrations, and clear color photos in a large format would certainly be the best martial arts book series available for the forseeable future.


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## Basicman

I have read the first three, having a little difficulty obtaining the last two, which I would like to read (especially Volume 5).  I found the first Volume extremely boring especially the history part.  I also question the validity of the history(the ancient part) due to history being "rewritten" so to speak so many times by the different cultures in Asia.  I do feel the series is what drew me to American Kenpo, because it seems that there was some thought put into designing it.

Take Care
John


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *
> Now when I reread these books, I see that Mr. Parker was truly a genious.  But, he was a genious in need of an editor.  To me, the material seems to ramble.  Some of the concepts seem to be a little thin in real world application (Black Dot / White Dot is my un-favorite).  Many of the concepts are explained in a round-about way making it difficult for the uninitiated to grasp.  *


*

The books were supposed to be entirely conceptual, not specific. They were designed to make a student think, and were written for all martial artists, not just kenpo.




			And, In light of current publishing standards, the illustrations are crude and the photographs primitive.
		
Click to expand...


They were done almost a quarter of a century ago. The content for the most part is over 35 years old.




			I think it would be great if a professional author (maybe Tom Bleeker?) collaborated with a few Kenpo Seniors on an update.  A revised and updated Infinite Insights with tighter writing, newer illustrations, and clear color photos in a large format would certainly be the best martial arts book series available for the forseeable future.
		
Click to expand...

*
It would be a bit presumptious for any of us (even if we could come to a concensus) to redo Mr. Parker's work. Not to mention it is owned by Edmund and is not in the public domain for reinterpretation. That should be left to his son who put together the original. There is talk that one day Edmund will redo them into a single volume. Parker often spoke of redoing them himself. He was particularly displeased with some of the pictures and stances of some participants and wanted to omit and correct them.

However he felt "pressed" to get the product out while he was still alive. Many have said, and I cuncur, "He knew his time was short."


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## Rob Broad

The books are part of our history, and while some say they are far from perfect, nothing man made is ever perfect.  The idea that some seniors should redo the books is ludicrous, thats like saying smeone should go starighten up the leaning tower of pizza.


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## jfarnsworth

I have read 1,2,4,&5. I believe book 3 is really a difficult book to "read" because of it's nature. I have only really sat down to take some notes out of 4 and 5 though.


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## Doc

Although I am represented in all five volumes - my credentials come from the fact that I did stay in a Holiday Inn last night.


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## Michael Billings

... to sit down and read in-depth, repeatedly.  Lots and lots of information in there ... not sure you would ever find it at the Holiday Inn.   So Doc, will we find Infinite Insights in our night stands at the neighborhood Holiday Inn?

-Michael


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## Goldendragon7

> _Orig posted by Michael Billings _*
> So Doc, will we find Infinite Insights in our night stands at the neighborhood Holiday Inn?
> -Michael *



All I can tell you is that he is on "HOLIDAY" and can be found "INN" the Jacuzzi.

:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7

Off to crack open the insights again to keep up with Farnsworth!

:asian:


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... to sit down and read in-depth, repeatedly.  Lots and lots of information in there ... not sure you would ever find it at the Holiday Inn.   So Doc, will we find Infinite Insights in our night stands at the neighborhood Holiday Inn?
> 
> -Michael *


Right next to the Gideon sir.


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## RCastillo

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *All I can tell you is that he is on "HOLIDAY" and can be found "INN" the Jacuzzi.
> 
> :rofl: *



Let's stay on topic please!

I've read them, and need to read them again. They've helped me to dig further into Kenpo, but have also confirmed aspects found in an other art that I studied before.:asian:


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## jfarnsworth

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Off to crack open the insights again to keep up with Farnsworth!*



ME? :rofl: 

No way, I need them to ask you all of my off of the wall questions. 

I've had a bad last month to month and a half so I need to get back into them.


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## Matt Bernius

Question for all you Kenpo folks. I'm not involved with Kenpo but have a huge respect for it and Professor Parker. Which of these books (or his others) would make a good reference for someone outside of the system who would like to understand it's basic tenants and concepts?

- Matt


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## Michael Billings

... a very good place to start.

Volume #1 has some very essential information, in terms of how to conceptually organize Kenpo.  Without it you are operating in a bit of a vacuum.

Volumes #2 & #3 are primarily about basics, but also lead us through "how to's" which are essential to understand and execute the techniques. "Basics - you have to have a strong foundation", as Sigung LaBounty would say.  These books also contain Principles and Concepts that relate to correct application.  And you continue to learn the nomenclature essential to communicating with anyone else who is in  this system.  

Volumes #4 & #5 are my favorites.  Although anyone can benefit from reading them as a stand alone resouce, it adds depth to your level of understanding if you have read the other books.

They were written sequentially on purpose, in the order SGM Parker perceived as necessary.

Have fun and take your time.  We all re-read them all the time (at least lots of us do), and I always find something new.  I am on my 2nd set now.

-Michael


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## teej

I find that they hold a vast knowledge. There most certainly are areas easier to understand than others. Different readers will interpret parts differently.

I one thing that I do find is that everytime I read or look into them, I find or learn something different. Or something else makes sense. Or I better understand a direction Mr. Parker was going. (or think i do, lol)

Just remember that they are a guide to follow of how some things were at the time they were written. That SGM Parker always envisions improvements and evolution of American Kenpo.

Final word, They are a great source of wealth and knowledge.

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


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## ob2c

I voted:
*I have read all five of Parker's Infinite Insights books within the past year.*

But, I have to admit that I cheated..., sort of. I've tried to order them before and, for variouse reasons, was unsuccessful. So I finally just ordered some used ones from variouse sources. I got them all in jsut before Christmas, and I'v devoured them! I'm just about finished with 5, then I intend to re-read them and take notes. Good info for anyone, indespensable for a Kenpo practitioner.


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## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by ob2c _
> *I have read all five of Parker's Infinite Insights books  Good info for anyone, indespensable for a Kenpo practitioner.
> *



Agreed!!!!!!!


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## Seig

I think that as a practitioner progresses and his understanding grows his perceptions will change.  As this occurs, it is a good idea to go back and reread the volumes.


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## CoolKempoDude

there should be a poll for this question

Is reading Parker's infinite insights (5 volumes) a requirement for all American Kenpo practicers ??? 

Yes or  No


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## rschoon

I first read them years ago (they were much more available).  I am now on night shift and have just re-read the series again.  I have gleened a great deal more info from them this time around and "saw" a lot more information that I did't see when I use them for reference.

I also understand a lot more of it now than I did way back when.

Rick artyon:


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## Nightingale

they're definitely worth the read! I learned a lot.


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## kenpoworks

The I.I. series, is Ed Parkers legacy to the Art of Kenpo and by its nature is referential.

My books where purchased from and signed by Mr. Parker himself.
Well all the books i have in the I.I. series are signed by mr. P except No 5, which, was swapped by a Kenpo "brother" for an unsigned copy about 10 yrs after purchase at a seminar(sorry, I just had too get that one off my chest).
what I have found is that as my meagre knowledge of Kenpo grows, that the I.I. series grows in value also.
Richy.


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## kenpoworks

The I.I. series, is Ed Parkers legacy to the Art of Kenpo and by its nature is referential.

My books where purchased from and signed by Mr. Parker himself.
Well all the books i have in the I.I. series are signed by mr. P except No 5, which, was swapped by a Kenpo "brother" for an unsigned copy about 10 yrs after purchase at a seminar(sorry, I just had too get that one off my chest).
what I have found is that as my meagre knowledge of Kenpo grows, that the I.I. series grows in value.
Richy.


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## Goldendragon7

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> The I.I. series, is Ed Parkers legacy to the Art of Kenpo and by its nature is referential.
> 
> 
> All the books I have in the I.I. series are signed by Mr. P, I have found that my meagre of Kenpo I.I. series knowledge grows in value with time.  Richy.



Yep, you got that right.... they are a true treasure!

:asian:


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## rschoon

Another good read is the "Encyclopedia of Kenpo", especially for the non-kenpoist.  It will help a person to glean a decent idea of our terminology and many of the concepts and principles.

Respect to all!

Rick


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## cdhall

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> ... to sit down and read in-depth, repeatedly. Lots and lots of information in there ... not sure you would ever find it at the Holiday Inn. So Doc, will we find Infinite Insights in our night stands at the neighborhood Holiday Inn?
> 
> -Michael


Probably won't find them on your night stand, but if you wake up feeling like a Fifth Degree it may be because of the great rest you had. :ultracool 

Unless of course you stay in a Holiday Inn during your test for Fifth. That might get you a spot as their spokesperson. :idunno: 

However, I was going to say that I started reading Infinite Insights cover to cover about 12 years ago and bogged down in Book 3 if I recall. Since then I may have actually finished them by jumping around and reading them and using them as a reference so much.  I agree that they could have been more tightly edited. And of course they are "dated" by today's published standards/methods.

And having someone else re-write Mr. Parker's books would be a bad move. It would be better for someone(s) to write their own. Like Mr. Wedlake has done. I've read one or two of his books and they were pretty good. I think Kenpo 101 I really liked.

I had heard that Mr. Parker, Jr. was going to update the series once but I didn't know he had plans to do one volume. It may be cool to do one volume as 8.5 x 11 or something and incorporate the Encyclopedia of Kenpo and publish it that way. That could be a very handy and heavily illustrated reference.

What about an interactive CD or DVD to go with it? Hmmm.


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## mj-hi-yah

I have read all five volumes.  I think that books 1-3 are important to read at the beginner level and 4 and 5 contain advanced concepts that can be read as a beginner, but are more readily understood once you've built a knowledge base and have had experience in applying that knowledge.  I believe that any Martial Artist could find something in these books, but all Kenpo practitioners would benefit from reading and rereading them.    I learn something every time I pick one up.  There are lots of great books by other Kenpo practitioners that are beneficial to read,  but  I think that the Infinite Insights are the greatest reference, and for some reason I think I like the fact that they haven't been tampered with.  Maybe it's because Kenpo seems to have moved in some different directions that I like seeing what Ed Parker's original intentions were for the art.  A friend just sent this link to me last night.  I haven't ordered anything from it yet, but for those of you who are having trouble locating part or all of the volumes, I did see that they are available here.  http://www.superiormartialarts.com/catalog/uniform/kenpobooks.html


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## Doc

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> ... Maybe it's because Kenpo seems to have moved in some different directions that I like seeing what Ed Parker's original intentions were for the art...


Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.


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## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.


Doc,
First it seems that perhaps a hello is in order. :asian:  Hello, and thanks so much for your interest.  I see now from this thread that you are more than familiar with Infinite Insights.  That's great.

What you have to say here is very interesting to me, because I've been curious about finding out more information regarding Ed Parker's original intent in terms of Kenpo.  Actually, I was originally more specifically interested in the Kenpo we learn today and why it often differs amongst some Kenpo schools.  I wanted to know more about the way Ed Parker originally wanted the material presented in Kenpo as he first presented it.  I am most interested in how that may have changed in translation over time to the differences in what we are learning in the present.  

These thoughts of mine are the result of research on Kenpo for my thesis paper.  I discovered that Ed Parker had a written curriculum, which you must also know of; I think it is entitled the "Accumulative Journal".  I would love to find that as well, but was disappointed to learn that it is no longer in print.  I remain interested in Ed Parker's intentions before others influenced the teaching of the Kenpo that is taught today.  This interest was sparked by research and an article that I read:  Kenpo Never Change.  Further, since Ed Parker authored the Infinite Insights books, I assumed these were his original thoughts, or rather his original intentions, for Kenpo.  I had not considered otherwise.

As of 6:41 am that was the best information I had on the subject matter.  Thanks for the enlightenment.  I had no idea that Ed Parker had considered something different from the beginning, but find it fascinating that he made changes in his intent, and I wonder about that.  I am further curious as to whether or not you think that some of the original concepts should have remained.  

However, whether it was his first conception for Kenpo, or what circumstances may have caused him to change from his original intent, my feelings about these five books remain the same, and my interest in how he wanted the material presented remains the same.  Perhaps sometime after I've had a chance to read the other books we could discuss the changes in his intent.    

Either way it sounds like the books you are recommending may help me in some way in my quest - good books for a thirsty mind are always a welcome thing!  I will put them on my list of reads right after I finish "The Path to Excellence" which is due to arrive in a week.  

 It's funny how we come to learn new things, because my original intent here, on this thread, was simply to agree with something you had said earlier in this thread about it being Edmund Parker's place, if anyone's, to make changes to the volumes.  I didn't state it before, but I agree with that. At the same time, I also think they are fine just the way they are.  

I'm glad I didn't make that simple statement, because I've learned something new.  Thanks.

Respectfully,
MJ


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## Doc

> Doc,
> First it seems that perhaps a hello is in order. :asian:  Hello, and thanks so much for your interest.  I see now from this thread that you are more than familiar with Infinite Insights.  That's great.



Same to you sir. If you look again youll find I am in every volume.



> What you have to say here is very interesting to me, because I've been curious about finding out more information regarding Ed Parker's original intent in terms of Kenpo.  Actually, I was originally more specifically interested in the Kenpo we learn today and why it often differs amongst some Kenpo schools.



The contemporary or the business kenpo is by design an interpretive conceptual product. Instructors as well as students were supposed to interpret that material to their personally liking. Clearly in the arts this was innovative on one level, but destructive to the overall art on another that establishes no definitive material beyond the generalized concepts. Every school, student, teacher is different because the only goal was to make the individual as competent as possible with the available material. Even simple blocks are different from student to student and school to school. This is an anomaly in the arts and far from the norm in other discipline with more depth of available knowledge or definitive structure.



> I wanted to know more about the way Ed Parker originally wanted the material presented in Kenpo as he first presented it.  I am most interested in how that may have changed in translation over time to the differences in what we are learning in the present.



Good luck there. Thats like attempting to decipher Henry Fords original intent for his method for the building of the automobile. You might want to re-think that position rather than trying to find a definitive thought process for an entity designed to be interpreted by whomever comes in contact with it. 

Simply, he was creating a conceptual vehicle that every student could find value in, and come away with something they find functional that did NOT require his presence day-to-day for instructors or students to learn. Afterall he was the one and only expert for this newly created conceptual art and couldn't be everywhere on a consistent basis. His personal art, is another story however.



> These thoughts of mine are the result of research on Kenpo for my thesis paper.  I discovered that Ed Parker had a written curriculum, which you must also know of; I think it is entitled the "Accumulative Journal".



I was looking at my copy yesterday cleaning out my archives after moving a school. Although I never really used it, I was presented with a copy of most material as Parker produced it from the early sixties so I have a lot of stuff.

I also took a look at the original commercial material of 32 techniques per belt that started with orange and stopped at green. After green the material changes to green/brown where the extensions of the orange belt material are added back in. It wasnt until much later that the purple extensions, weapon forms, etc were added to expand the commercial and competition material.



> I would love to find that as well, but was disappointed to learn that it is no longer in print.



There are lots of guys that still have theirs. I bet Dennis Conatser is another with it. That Dude (hes a Bud so I can call him that), never got rid of anything. Parker used to call him the Pack Rat he accumulated so much written material from every source he could get his hands on.



> I remain interested in Ed Parker's intentions before others influenced the teaching of the Kenpo that is taught today.



Now you are moving in a completely different direction. Before Parker was influenced by Chinese Masters in California, the Kenpo was closer to what he was taught in Hawaii and represented in his first commercial kenpo karate book in 1961. But even that was evolving rapidly before he split off the commercial motion based version.



> This interest was sparked by research and an article that I read:  Kenpo Never Change.



Ed Parker used to say, Kenpo never changes, but is perpetually refined. But he was not talking about a single entity Kenpo as most think it is. There are many, many versions inclusive of the commercial Kenpo with the word karate attached to it that he taught and sold as a business model for instructor students to make a living. This is the perpetually refined kenpo he spoke of which was based on a teachers/students personal interpretation and use of abstract motion theory. It changed from teacher to teacher, student to student, and Parker ranked them according to their own group not to an overall kenpo as well.



> Further, since Ed Parker authored the Infinite Insights books, I assumed these were his original thoughts, or rather his original intentions, for Kenpo.  I had not considered otherwise.



Infinite Insights were written as a model for all martial artists as you observed, however Ed Parker used his commercial version of kenpo as the basis for the business material he had evolved from the early seventies. Actually there was no new material in the Infinite Insights. It simply represented commercial product Parker (and others) worked on from about 1972 to 1980. In fact in the first volume he states as much, and the first volume was published as I recall in 1981.



> As of 6:41 am that was the best information I had on the subject matter.  Thanks for the enlightenment.  I had no idea that Ed Parker had considered something different from the beginning, but find it fascinating that he made changes in his intent, and I wonder about that.  I am further curious as to whether or not you think that some of the original concepts should have remained.



The original (and more) material does remain, it simply is not represented in the business model because it is too labor intensive and requires extensive knowledge not available to most. Additionally Parker never intended for it to be mass disseminated per his agreement with the Chinese who took him under their wing as a non-white and entrusted him with certain information the Chinese still hold close to the vest.



> However, whether it was his first conception for Kenpo, or what circumstances may have caused him to change from his original intent, my feelings about these five books remain the same, and my interest in how he wanted the material presented remains the same.  Perhaps sometime after I've had a chance to read the other books we could discuss the changes in his intent.



Parker never had a change of intent. He continued to expand and accumulate knowledge of the science until he passed. However the information in Infinite Insights represents more of a necessary divergence from his concurrently developing personal art, rather than a replacement as some may suggest. Clearly the Parker seen on film in the fifties and sixties is different in execution than the Parker of the eighties. He is not executing the material represented in Infinite Insights. That is why most could not replicate what Parker did when he executed a technique. He was not doing the same thing he was teaching. In later video of seminars, you can see that when he teaches slowly he does things different than when he explodes.



> Either way it sounds like the books you are recommending may help me in some way in my quest - good books for a thirsty mind are always a welcome thing!  I will put them on my list of reads right after I finish "The Path to Excellence" which is due to arrive in a week.



You will find them interesting, and they contain information that is not in Infinite Insights and allude to things mysteriously dropped later on from the commercial kenpo that remained in Parkers personal evolution. I always use the slap-check as an example. It was never written about in any of Parkers published work, yet was very prominent in his explosive execution.



> It's funny how we come to learn new things, because my original intent here, on this thread, was simply to agree with something you had said earlier in this thread about it being Edmund Parker's place, if anyone's, to make changes to the volumes.  I didn't state it before, but I agree with that. At the same time, I also think they are fine just the way they are.



Yes, the only thing I would like to see Edmund do is re-do some of the pictures, (As Ed Parker intended to do before he passed), and compile the volumes into one large hard cover with an addendum from Ed Parker Jr. separate from the original material. 



> I'm glad I didn't make that simple statement, because I've learned something new.  Thanks.



My final advice, is don't think of American Kenpo as a single entity with an expectation everyone is even close to the same thing. Beyond the, what has become, the generic name, most are very different interpretations as Parker intended for most.

I always learn something in these exchanges. Thank you for participating. We must do it again sir.

Resectfully,


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## Storm

Nightingale said:
			
		

> they're definitely worth the read! I learned a lot.



I am just im the middle of reading the third volume.  So much infor and so much to take in. Very good hope I can get my hands on the other volumes.


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## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> Same to you sir. If you look again youll find I am in every volume.


Hello again, and let me say that I am sorry for the assumption that I am a sir.  I suppose MJ is the reason.  MJ stands for Mary Jo. I could be granted a pass into the ladies locker room if desired.   I will certainly look to find you in each volume.  



> The contemporary or the business kenpo is by design an interpretive conceptual product. Instructors as well as students were supposed to interpret that material to their personally liking. Clearly in the arts this was innovative on one level, but destructive to the overall art on another that establishes no definitive material beyond the generalized concepts. Every school, student, teacher is different because the only goal was to make the individual as competent as possible with the available material. Even simple blocks are different from student to student and school to school. This is an anomaly in the arts and far from the norm in other discipline with more depth of available knowledge or definitive structure.


 
This is the way it was presented to me by my instructor and I found it to be very curious that Ed Parker would allow such freedom in interpretation.  I totally agree with you that by design, intentional or not, this is both innovative and destructive to the art at the same time.  I was curious as to why he never made video tapes, other than Sophisticated Basics (that I am aware of) to show the techniques, basics, sets and forms to promote consistency.  It was this paradigm between innovation and what I considered to be a form of inherent self destruction that sparked my interest in finding out Ed Parker's intent for Kenpo.  It just didn't make complete sense to me.  It is most curious.  

After reading the quote below I began to wonder why Ed Parker would want the base system to be taught identically, yet not have a written curriculum.  That led me to the knowledge of the Accumulative Journal. I was happy to hear this, because it meant to me that he built something that he must have believed was worth preserving in some way.  I'm not sure if you know him, but this was written by a man named Kevin Lamkin and is an excerpt from the article Kenpo Never Changes:

I asked Mr. Parker (he preferred to be called 'Ed') why the American Kenpo in his own organization had so much variance between schools. He seemed agitated about this question, yet I went further to inform him that the instructor who had hosted a recent seminar stated that this was because Ed Parker is always changing the system. Before I could complete my sentence, Mr. Parker blew-up and firmly stated,

"Kenpo Never Changes, it Perpetually Refines Itself."​He added, "Very few instructors understand this parable. What it refers to is this; My system should be taught from the base system, The Ideal Phase of each technique. I will be starting a limited franchise of schools next year (1988). Each school will teach, as all should, the techniques, basics and forms identically. What the instructor is charged to do is to _"tailor"_the technique - after the Ideal Phase is understood. In this way, Kenpo remains the same and is refined perpetually for the student."

Reading this led me to believe that Ed Parker actually wanted some consistency in Kenpo to transcend time.  If this is the case, and Ed Parker actually wanted Kenpo to always begin with the same base, I was curious how it changed so much.  If this is truly the case, and there was a consistent curriculum that was intended to be taught identically in it's ideal phase, than one might conclude that the ideal phase at least should have remained the same, but yet I've seen lots of versions of the "same" Kenpo techniques, and not always qualified as tailored versions.  This is the reason for my interest in the Accumulative Journal.  As an instructor, I just really wanted to see how he, (and as I know now, his collaborators) believed the basics should be presented.   



> I was looking at my copy yesterday cleaning out my archives after moving a school. Although I never really used it, I was presented with a copy of most material as Parker produced it from the early sixties so I have a lot of stuff.


I'm wondering why you never really used this.  Was it because you knew the material, or because you didn't find it necessary or valuable in your teaching?
Would you ever consider sharing this?



> I also took a look at the original commercial material of 32 techniques per belt that started with orange and stopped at green. After green the material changes to green/brown where the extensions of the orange belt material are added back in. It wasnt until much later that the purple extensions, weapon forms, etc were added to expand the commercial and competition material.


This history is interesting.  Thanks.





> Ed Parker used to say, Kenpo never changes, but is perpetually refined. But he was not talking about a single entity Kenpo as most think it is. There are many, many versions inclusive of the commercial Kenpo with the word karate attached to it that he taught and sold as a business model for instructor students to make a living. This is the perpetually refined kenpo he spoke of which was based on a teachers/students personal interpretation and use of abstract motion theory. It changed from teacher to teacher, student to student, and Parker ranked them according to their own group not to an overall kenpo as well.


 
Thank you for this.  This, rather than what I read in the article, makes more sense in explaining the changes in Kenpo.  Ironically, while I would like to see a little more common ground in Kenpo, as a certified teacher - the idea of individualization is what most attracts me to Kenpo.  





> Infinite Insights were written as a model for all martial artists as you observed, however Ed Parker used his commercial version of kenpo as the basis for the business material he had evolved from the early seventies. Actually there was no new material in the Infinite Insights. It simply represented commercial product Parker (and others) worked on from about 1972 to 1980. In fact in the first volume he states as much, and the first volume was published as I recall in 1981


I'll have to reread that.  I had certainly considered that even Ed Parker had influences in his training that led him to developing this system, and as far as collaboration goes, in retrospect I do remember reading things about him thanking various people for their contributions.  





> The original (and more) material does remain, it simply is not represented in the business model because it is too labor intensive and requires extensive knowledge not available to most. Additionally Parker never intended for it to be mass disseminated per his agreement with the Chinese who took him under their wing as a non-white and entrusted him with certain information the Chinese still hold close to the vest.


 
This is interesting!  I feel cheated...just kidding  I think I could spend the rest of my life trying to understand Infinite Insights alone!





> Ed Parker never had a change of intent. He continued to expand and accumulate knowledge of the science until he passed. However the information in Infinite Insights represents more of a necessary divergence from his concurrently developing personal art, rather than a replacement as some may suggest. Clearly the Parker seen on film in the fifties and sixties is different in execution than the Parker of the eighties. He is not executing the material represented in Infinite Insights. That is why most could not replicate what Parker did when he executed a technique. He was not doing the same thing he was teaching. In later video of seminars, you can see that when he teaches slowly he does things different than when he explodes.


This may be the most interesting exchange of all.  Perhaps this is the essence of Martial Arts...the art part of the art - evolving self-expression.  If you could presume, and if you feel you can't that is okay, what do you think Ed Parker would think about the way Kenpo has evolved?  If that is too difficult to answer (or in addition), what do you think of the way Kenpo has evolved? 




> You will find them interesting, and they contain information that is not in Infinite Insights and allude to things mysteriously dropped later on from the commercial kenpo that remained in Parkers personal evolution. I always use the slap-check as an example. It was never written about in any of Parkers published work, yet was very prominent in his explosive execution.


 
I'll look forward to this!




> My final advice, is don't think of American Kenpo as a single entity with an expectation everyone is even close to the same thing. Beyond the, what has become, the generic name, most are very different interpretations as Parker intended for most.


I think I finally understand.  



> I always learn something in these exchanges. Thank you for participating. We must do it again


Thank you!  That would be nice.  I've learned a great deal!  

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:


----------



## Michael Billings

Once again, great info and history from your perspective Doc.  Thanks for sharing.  

 Are you still planning a trip to Houston for Mr. Bugg's?  I am looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.

 Oss,
 -Michael


----------



## Doc

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Once again, great info and history from your perspective Doc.  Thanks for sharing.
> 
> Are you still planning a trip to Houston for Mr. Bugg's?  I am looking forward to seeing you if you can make it.
> 
> Oss,
> -Michael



Looking forward to seeing you as well. We have much to talk about.


----------



## Doc

* CAUTION: THE BELOW MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME, BUT IS NOT INTENDED IN ANY WAY TO DEMEAN OR SUGGEST WHAT ANYONE DOES IS INVALID.*



> Hello again, and let me say that I am sorry for the assumption that I am a sir. I suppose MJ is the reason. MJ stands for Mary Jo. I could be granted a pass into the ladies locker room if desired.  I will certainly look to find you in each volume.



My apologies. Most of the ladies usually identify themselves in their posts. Please excuse my making such an assumption.



> This is the way it was presented to me by my instructor and I found it to be very curious that Ed Parker would allow such freedom in interpretation. I totally agree with you that by design, intentional or not, this is both innovative and destructive to the art at the same time.



Although essentially he had no choice, the idea of a self-defense based art of practical and functional choices mandated it could not be presented any other way. He took the concept of self defense courses found in many universities and expanded on the theme and added belts. In this format, most do not study long term (semester to semester) and therefore only want reasonable skills as quickly as possible.

Flexibility was inherent in the presentation because students were not studying an art form and the individual had to take responsibility for their own actions and personal well being. 

Previously most martial activity had been sold as an art form with strict country of origin cultural rituals and foreign language mandates. This intrigued many Americans who embraced these activities as an art with some vicarious martial benefits.

Ed Parker changed the focus to self-defense and left just enough of the Asian influence to maintain that mysterious foreign flavor, to separate it from American boxing and wrestling. He inserted the word karate to that end because of the public familiarity with the term. Learn karate and defend yourself from attack became the theme and it wasnt long before most subscribed to this method of selling their art.

Originally the Japanese Arts dominated after WW II from our exposure when American Servicemen returned home. These arts were sport arts and called as such. Karate-do was a natural extension of the ju-do activity. Those who practiced ju-do were known as judo players because of its competition mandates for advancement. The same was true for karate practitioners who were also known as karate-players. I have found memories of my grandmother asking me if I was going to play karate today.

So you see most arts were sold as just that or as a sporting activity. Ed Parker changed all that, and although those activities havent changed much, they are now all sold as the ultimate in self-defense. Good or bad, Ed Parker influenced the industry in that way.

So on one hand he had a positive proliferation effect on the martial arts in America and is known, quite rightly so, as the Father of American Karate. The bad news is mass consumption meant reducing it to its lowest common denominator, if it was to be financially successful. But because of its inherent flexibility the individual was responsible to make it work. Conceptually the tools were all there, and the student engaged the information at the depth they chose to participate. There were some good things that came of it, but most, at best were mediocre to sorry under mass belt driven business mills.

Ed Parker borrowed and based his business model on an existing dance chain called Arthur Murray Dance Studios. This was when karate schools first became known as studios instead of dojos. In selling, terminology was very important. A studio was a comfortable term. What the hell is a dojo? most would say. 

Anyway, Arthur Murray would lure people come into the studios with 5 private lesson for a flat low fee that was attractive. Most people who didnt know how to dance would be embarrassed to get in front of a group and show their dance ineptitude, so the idea of initial private lessons cheap was attractive and an effective lure. 

Parker would say this is how you brought the lookey loos and the mildly curious into the studio to ultimately get them into group classes, by making them feel comfortable. It didnt hurt that this methodology yielded high returns for the amount of time invested. 

The majority who entered the dance studios learned to dance reasonably well enough to satisfy their needs and desires and moved on. They could now dance with their friends without being embarrassed, but few became true really accomplished dancers. However clearly they got their moneys worth. Those who did well and who thought they would like to make a living dancing were offered the opportunity to teach in their own studio, once they reached a certain level. 

Thus the student became the teacher rather quickly. I think most would agree that a year or two of part time dance lessons hardly qualifies anyone to teach dancing except on the most superficial of levels. Sound familiar? Ed Parker would advertise in the paper, Karate Instructors Wanted, no experience necessary. Anything to get people into the studios to sell the art to the American public.

Study a few years and then turn around and now you can teach. Its called proliferation and an effective business expansion concept, but at best produces and promotes mediocrity. Particularly in a martial art where significant street experience is important, and injury is a distinct possibility upon failure. This is why the student and not the teacher is responsible for how they choose to execute a technique. I present the concept, and you decide how, when, and even if you use it.

But Ed Parker also conceded the limitations. He said, We are an industry feeding upon itself. And at some point he knew it would collapse upon itself without a true foundation. He knew that was not possible under that existing format. Proliferation took the commercial studio art all over the world, but it had its price.

Imagine someone who graduates from elementary school who suddenly is allowed to teach elementary school. A person who doesnt know how to fight, with no effective street fight experience, works out for several years and is now a self-defense instructor because they passed the course, is now teaching others how to fight. Even at its best, its the bleary eyed teaching the blind.

Originally Parkers proliferation plan worked for one simple reason. He started with men who had life and street experience. In most cases the majority of Parkers students came to him with significant martial arts experience. In fact, very few people were actually taught by Parker from a no experience white belt to black belt. The majority of the well-known names were brown or black belts when they came to Parker. For them the conceptual product worked because they had a significant foundation coupled with street experience to make the ideas more than functional. Parker basically started with a bunch of tough guys who could already fight. Parker just made them better. These were the guys that brought their experience to teaching and making the kenpo studio material work. However for the most part, these people are no longer taking students from white to black, and no matter how good a student is, without experience there will always be a void.



> I was curious as to why he never made video tapes, other than Sophisticated Basics (that I am aware of) to show the techniques, basics, sets and forms to promote consistency.



I was apart of that project along with Ed Parker jr. who did all the real heavy lifting. I was the announcers voice and also briefly in number one demonstrating a few difficult movements he needed. But the answer is a simple one. How, or why would you create videos of a definitive way to do undefined conceptual techniques? Remember he promoted individual flexibility in his commercial art. He was concerned if he committed techniques to video, everyone would attempt to mimic instead of think. 

It would have been counter-productive as well to the idea of the individual being personally responsible for sticking fingers in someones eyes. Parker himself didnt do these things because he didnt have to, but the business model used soft tissue assaults to the throat, groin, eyes, and neck to insure a level of effectiveness. (I think I just described all of the commercial techniques in one sentence.)



> It was this paradigm between innovation and what I considered to be a form of inherent self destruction that sparked my interest in finding out Ed Parker's intent for Kenpo. It just didn't make complete sense to me. It is most curious.



Different interpretations have different intent. Simply, the version that peaked your interest was about proliferation while imparting some level of skill that was satisfactory to the individual student. It was and is a rather shallow concept, that allowed a few brilliant people to do well, but the majority never rose above the level of the concept.



> After reading the quote below I began to wonder why Ed Parker would want the base system to be taught identically, yet not have a written curriculum.



He never definitively defined the base business model; therefore there was no definitively written curriculum beyond the conceptual. 



> That led me to the knowledge of the Accumulative Journal. I was happy to hear this, because it meant to me that he built something that he must have believed was worth preserving in some way.



Well yes and no. He created a franchise guide he called the accumulated journal for school owners and managers. It contained all of the conceptual information, techniques ideas, etc. available at the time.

Prior to that the written techniques were not available to students. Students were given the names of techniques, which is why they were constructed as they were to help students remember them, with no written material beyond a simple list of requirements.

Ed Parker sold them the Accumulated Journal and mangers/owners taught from the journals to create a loose semblance of material from school to school. Over time students began requesting the written versions of the techniques, so Parker created the technique manuals. However, the accumulated journals were never intended for everyone to have, and is also the reason why they are rare. They were never produced in large numbers. It also becomes clear why schools never ever did things the same. It was all subject to interpretation, which was what Parker promoted.



> I'm wondering why you never really used this.  Was it because you knew the material, or because you didn't find it necessary or valuable in your teaching?



In the methodology I was taught it had virtually no value, and was actually a divergence from some of his other more n-depth teaching. Many of the older students to this day resent the business version and resisted learning it.



> I'm not sure if you know him, but this was written by a man named Kevin Lamkin and is an excerpt from the article Kenpo Never Changes:
> 
> I asked Mr. Parker (he preferred to be called 'Ed') why the American Kenpo in his own organization had so much variance between schools. He seemed agitated about this question, yet I went further to inform him that the instructor who had hosted a recent seminar stated that this was because Ed Parker is always changing the system. Before I could complete my sentence, Mr. Parker blew-up and firmly stated,
> 
> "Kenpo Never Changes, it Perpetually Refines Itself."
> 
> He added, "Very few instructors understand this parable. What it refers to is this; My system should be taught from the base system, The Ideal Phase of each technique. I will be starting a limited franchise of schools next year (1988). Each school will teach, as all should, the techniques, basics and forms identically. What the instructor is charged to do is to "tailor"the technique - after the Ideal Phase is understood. In this way, Kenpo remains the same and is refined perpetually for the student."



Just for the record, Ed Parker never preferred nor asked to be called Ed by anyone. There were those who were around in the old days before things became more formal who called him Ed and he didnt correct them, but he didnt prefer it.

When I first met him as a teenager he was Mr. Parker. As I grew and our relationship grew, I called him Edmund, (as I do his son) as well as a series of nicknames. Kahuna, Manaloha, Grandmaster Flash, The Magician of Motion, Boss, and The Old Man were some of the many. For me, he fluctuated between being a father figure, big brother, and best friend. I never ever called him Ed. He personally confided he didnt like it, but as far as I know never corrected anyone. He was an informal person who simply introduce himself as, Ed Parker. No grandmaster or titles. Just Ed Parker.



> Reading this led me to believe that Ed Parker actually wanted some consistency in Kenpo to transcend time. If this is the case, and Ed Parker actually wanted Kenpo to always begin with the same base, I was curious how it changed so much.



See the above



> If this is truly the case, and there was a consistent curriculum that was intended to be taught identically in it's ideal phase, than one might conclude that the ideal phase at least should have remained the same, but yet I've seen lots of versions of the "same" Kenpo techniques, and not always qualified as tailored versions. This is the reason for my interest in the Accumulative Journal. As an instructor, I just really wanted to see how he, (and as I know now, his collaborators) believed the basics should be presented.



One of the great misconceptions in the motion based business model is the Three Phases. People assumed they were to do Parkers Ideal Phase. In fact they were supposed to do Their Ideal Phase from Parkers conceptual teachings, and design techniques that would be personally functional. Parker never ever produced a definitive way to physically perform anything. It was all designed to be interpretive.

The Web of Knowledge outlined an order of, and general possible attack considerations. The technique manuals proposed possible very general ideas to be interpreted by instructors and students.

The Instructor and/or student was supposed to begin that process by designing an ideal phase to extrapolate solutions based on Parker concepts. There never, ever was an ideal phase proposed, promoted, or taught by Parker in the motion based business model.

Here are Parkers written words on the subject taken from his own I.K.K.A Green Belt Technique Manual in the Accumulative Journal.

*BEGIN PARKER QUOTE*
As you analyze a specific technique, study is best begun by dividing your efforts into phases. Phase I of the analytical process requires that you commence with an ideal or fixed situation. 

This means that you are to select a combat situation that has been structured with a prescribed sequence of movements, and use this ideal technique as a basis. In this phase, the term ideal implies that the situation is fixed and that the "what if" questions required in Phase II are not to be included in Phase I. 

Using the ideal technique or model situation as a reference point not only refers to the defensive moves you employ, but the anticipated reactions of your opponent as well. Technically then, it is the prescribed reactions of your opponent that completes the ideal technique. 

Therefore, the ideal techniques are built around seemingly inflexible and one dimensional assumptions for a good purpose. They provide us with a basis from which we may begin our analytical process, (like a control model in any reliable scientific experiment). Prescribed techniques applied to prescribed reactions are the keys that make a basic technique ideal or fixed. 

In Phase I, structuring an ideal technique requires selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense, offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them.

These, so called ideal or fixed situations when analyzed and formulated properly should effectively take into consideration minor alterations of combat to make phase I significantly able to stand alone.
*END PARKER QUOTE*

This is an area of massive confusion and a close reading of Mr. Parkers words should reveal the obvious. He is speaking to instructors and/or students and telling them how to approach the conceptual information and how to create their ideal technique, while utilizing his ideas as a starting point. That is why it is so flexible and interpretive. Once YOU create YOUR Ideal Phase and teach or become proficient with it, than you may move to the other phases. The other part of the confusion is the what if. It is important to understand, when teachers/students create an ideal technique model, students do not, and should not have the luxury of confusing themselves entertaining infinite possibilities of what ifs as Mr. Parker stated above.

So-called what ifs do not exist in the ideal phase process. They should be different techniques with a similar offensive theme.  These questions should be answered as you move upward in the levels of your ideal phase process. Broken Ram answers questions similar to Charging Ram.  Captured Twigs is a variation of the question of Thrusting Prongs. Sword and Hammer is simply a different reaction timing to Obscure Wing.



> Thank you for this. This, rather than what I read in the article, makes more sense in explaining the changes in Kenpo. Ironically, while I would like to see a little more common ground in Kenpo, as a certified teacher - the idea of individualization is what most attracts me to Kenpo.



Like most people.



> This may be the most interesting exchange of all. Perhaps this is the essence of Martial Arts...the art part of the art - evolving self-expression. If you could presume, and if you feel you can't that is okay, what do you think Ed Parker would think about the way Kenpo has evolved? If that is too difficult to answer (or in addition), what do you think of the way Kenpo has evolved?



I think Mr. Parkers prediction of the business model came true. A kind reminder please; Kenpo is not a single entity that has or has not evolved. If the business model is your base, than only the individual may speak of their evolution of what they do and how they have interpreted it. I was taught differently and my personal evolution is on schedule as Parker also predicted.

Thank you for the stimulating exchange, and once again I apologize for the gender assumption, and please excuse any errors in my lengthy and somewhat hurried response. Back to work.


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## sumdumguy

Doc, 
     Once again a most enlightening post! I think though, that the quote in Mr. Parker's journal was saying a bit more then that wasn't it? I kind of read (interpretation here) that he was, while explaining the process, saying that "this isn't really what I'm trying to teach you". Am I right? The sentence, "these, so called fixed or ideal" kind of makes me wonder about a few things..... A bit of a negetivism it think.... Just a thought.
Thanks  :asian:


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## Michael Billings

Once again, something for my notebook.  Not everyone who was around at the same time as you, see it in the same light.  That leads to some of the contradiction by 3rd or 4th gen instructors, who only know what their instrutors shared.  

 Ever Evolving, Revolving, and Devolving,
 -Michael


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> CAUTION: THE BELOW MAY BE OFFENSIVE TO SOME, BUT IS NOT INTENDED IN ANY WAY TO DEMEAN OR SUGGEST WHAT ANYONE DOES IS INVALID.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can see why may have needed to say this. I am myself am not at all offended, but perhaps a bit conflicted by some of the things you've revealed here, which I will attempt to explain as I go on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My apologies. Most of the ladies usually identify themselves in their posts. Please excuse my making such an assumption.
> 
> 
> 
> Please don't apologize I almost always go by MJ, it's what everyone calls me, especially in my karate world and I forget that it is not gender specific.  Please know I'm never offended by the assumption.  I'm just not in the habit of saying, "Hi and by the way I am a woman."   I only mentioned it because you never know... someday I might run into you at a seminar, and you'd be expecting a sir.
> 
> Now that that is out of the way, let me please say that this is a brilliant post!  You are like living history, and have an amazing memory.  This is what I've been searching for.  Thank you for sharing all of this!  The history is fascinating and reading it is like having a light turned on.  The business model that is kenpo gives me the perspective I needed.  Please let me know if it is alright to quote you on some of this.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you see most arts were sold as just that or as a sporting activity. Ed Parker changed all that, and although those activities havent changed much, they are now all sold as the ultimate in self-defense. Good or bad, Ed Parker influenced the industry in that way.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I recently saw a video clip of Joe Louis speaking about Ed Parker and now I understand what he meant when he said he was, "a good businessman."  (as well as being a complete person).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So on one hand he had a positive proliferation effect on the martial arts in America and is known, quite rightly so, as the Father of American Karate. The bad news is mass consumption meant reducing it to its lowest common denominator, if it was to be financially successful. But because of its inherent flexibility the individual was responsible to make it work. Conceptually the tools were all there, and the student engaged the information at the depth they chose to participate. There were some good things that came of it, but most, at best were mediocre to sorry under mass belt driven business mills.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This part is unfortunate really.  Did Mr. Parker make visits to or keep in contact with the various school owners who purchased the model? Or was that done through the IKKA?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Parker borrowed and based his business model on an existing dance chain called Arthur Murray Dance Studios. This was when karate schools first became known as studios instead of dojos. In selling, terminology was very important. A studio was a comfortable term. What the hell is a dojo? most would say.
> 
> Anyway, Arthur Murray would lure people come into the studios with 5 private lesson for a flat low fee that was attractive. Most people who didnt know how to dance would be embarrassed to get in front of a group and show their dance ineptitude, so the idea of initial private lessons cheap was attractive and an effective lure.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Interesting and kind of funny that a model for a karate system would be based on that of a dance school - there is some irony there.  However Kenpo schools as well as Arthur Murray schools are still all around, providing proof of what a great business model it is.  Today, we still come for the "free" gi and private lesson, but on some level don't you think that most people are aware that they are being reeled in? At least I was, but I wanted to be, and ultimately you would not stay in an activity where your needs weren't being met.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thus the student became the teacher rather quickly. I think most would agree that a year or two of part time dance lessons hardly qualifies anyone to teach dancing except on the most superficial of levels. Sound familiar? Ed Parker would advertise in the paper, Karate Instructors Wanted, no experience necessary. Anything to get people into the studios to sell the art to the American public.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This part helps me to understand a lot, but honestly is a little disappointing, but not surprising.  Here's something I'd considered.  In most karate schools students are expected to accumulate a certain number of teaching hours in order to advance in rank.  This to me is proliferation within a school.  Eventually a head instructor would not have to teach many classes at all.  I'm aware of it though and like giving back through teaching so it doesn't much bother me.  However, it does concern me that people may be pushed into moving along in the ranks, or begin teaching too soon in order to establish a team of instructors in a school.  In our school we pushed to have a class to prepare for teaching.  I was not comfortable with the idea of teaching things that I felt I barely had grasped myself.  Also, some people are more suited to being teachers than others, and in my opinion having this be a mandatory requirement is not always in everyone's best interest.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Particularly in a martial art where significant street experience is important, and injury is a distinct possibility upon failure. This is why the student and not the teacher is responsible for how they choose to execute a technique. I present the concept, and you decide how, when, and even if you use it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Was it set up this way to somehow indemnify the teacher/school of responsibility?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Imagine someone who graduates from elementary school who suddenly is allowed to teach elementary school. A person who doesnt know how to fight, with no effective street fight experience, works out for several years and is now a self-defense instructor because they passed the course, is now teaching others how to fight. Even at its best, its the bleary eyed teaching the blind.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> First let me say that this quote does not upset me I see it as the truth.  I need not imagine here.  I live this.  The fact is I am a woman, and I've never been in a fight in my life. I am on the heels of passing the course after five years.  I'm teaching people, and I question it myself.  Still how do you gain real world experience?  You can't exactly go out into the streets and pick fights with your neighbors, but I totally see your point.  I'm just not sure what could be done about it.  I suppose sparring is a bit like the driver's education simulation car.  I learn a lot there, but in some ways I know it is not a real fight for my life.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the methodology I was taught it had virtually no value, and was actually a divergence from some of his other more n-depth teaching. Many of the older students to this day resent the business version and resisted learning it.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Do you still teach?  How do you approach your teaching?  I'm not sure how to reference this...there is the business model of kenpo that you've already said that you don't subscribe to, but what other ways are there to refer to kenpo being that it is not a single entity?  I'm just not sure what the right words are.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When I first met him as a teenager he was Mr. Parker. As I grew and our relationship grew, I called him Edmund, (as I do his son) as well as a series of nicknames. Kahuna, Manaloha, Grandmaster Flash, The Magician of Motion, Boss, and The Old Man were some of the many. For me, he fluctuated between being a father figure, big brother, and best friend. I never ever called him Ed. He personally confided he didnt like it, but as far as I know never corrected anyone. He was an informal person who simply introduce himself as, Ed Parker. No grandmaster or titles. Just Ed Parker.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> This is the fun stuff!   I see here you were very close.  I imagine he had lots of names for you too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> One of the great misconceptions in the motion based business model is the Three Phases. People assumed they were to do Parkers Ideal Phase. In fact they were supposed to do Their Ideal Phase from Parkers conceptual teachings, and design techniques that would be personally functional. Parker never ever produced a definitive way to physically perform anything. It was all designed to be interpretive.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> All of this information on the phases is extremely helpful to me as an instructor.  It clears some things up.  Thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> A kind reminder please; Kenpo is not a single entity that has or has not evolved. If the business model is your base, than only the individual may speak of their evolution of what they do and how they have interpreted it. I was taught differently and my personal evolution is on schedule as Parker also predicted.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I'm understanding so much more about this, but it's a little hard, only in the fact that up until a short while ago only one Kenpo existed for me.  I think that changed a bit last year when I attended the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston.  That's when I first really began to notice the differences and make comparisons.  Especially in the seminars - which were great!
> 
> [
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the stimulating exchange
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> You are welcome, and thank you too!
> MJ
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## Doc

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Doc,
> Once again a most enlightening post! I think though, that the quote in Mr. Parker's journal was saying a bit more then that wasn't it? I kind of read (interpretation here) that he was, while explaining the process, saying that "this isn't really what I'm trying to teach you". Am I right? The sentence, "these, so called fixed or ideal" kind of makes me wonder about a few things..... A bit of a negetivism it think.... Just a thought.
> Thanks  :asian:


----------



## Doc

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Once again, something for my notebook.  Not everyone who was around at the same time as you, see it in the same light.  That leads to some of the contradiction by 3rd or 4th gen instructors, who only know what their instrutors shared.
> 
> Ever Evolving, Revolving, and Devolving,
> -Michael



Yes sir that is to be expected. I have always made it a point to stay away from the "business" of kenpo as much as possible because it has a corrupting influence when one makes their living wholly on or in the arts. Most of the things I say I have documentation for having kept just about everything that came into my possession from Parker. Then other things are plain obvious when looked at objectively. Of course the history has nothing to do with the level anyone chooses to involve themselves and study. It may however make it more work than they had anticipated, in as much that what some think is there is specifically and intentionally absent. Either way Mr. B, you still the man.


----------



## sumdumguy

MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.

   Doc, what's with the    that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time. 
 :asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
> or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> Doc, what's with the  that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time.
> :asian:


Sumdumguy's too late...:armed:  already took the red one,  but if you like you can have my blue


----------



## Doc

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> MJ, if you take the blue pill now, you will never know the difference... lol....
> or, take the red one and see how deep the Kenpo hole goes. lol...... sorry couldn't resist.
> 
> Doc, what's with the    that's no answer.... your killing me here.... I gotta get to California. OH, Mr. Rainey Says a great big Hi. He was going to try to find you when he was in Cali in January but he ran out of time.
> :asian:


I figured I have already stepped on enough toes this week. Your point however is well taken. Many who study some form of Parker kenpo today have a tendancy to feel that what they are "learning" is some kind of "evolution" of older material and that it is definitive, despite the obvious. Many never considered that the idea of the "secrets" of any art are not to be found in a strip mall school full of people who have limited street skills taught by a twenty-somethings galleria warrior.

It would really be good to see A.C. again, and meet you as well. It will happen.

Meanwhile over on the other site youngsters are arguing with an Emperado student and a legitimate historian about things that were before they were born because someone "told" them different.    They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct as they read over here and then post over there to show how smart they are.


----------



## pete

> They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct


 but he did write the Crucible and was married to Marilyn...  :roflmao:


----------



## sumdumguy

Well, I wear steel toed boots besides, in comparison, I know relatively little about a whole bunch of nothing. I would say my cup is empty but I don't have a cup... Ouch... lol 
    Point taken, I still along with many others I am sure, appreciate the time you take to post on this site for some of us younger Gen Kenpo people to read and learn..... 
Thanks Doc.   :asian:


----------



## Doc

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Well, I wear steel toed boots besides, in comparison, I know relatively little about a whole bunch of nothing. I would say my cup is empty but I don't have a cup... Ouch... lol
> Point taken, I still along with many others I am sure, appreciate the time you take to post on this site for some of us younger Gen Kenpo people to read and learn.....
> Thanks Doc.   :asian:



I don't have a cup either. I'm still looking for it.

Thanks.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Doc said:
			
		

> Meanwhile over on the other site youngsters are arguing with an Emperado student and a legitimate historian about things that were before they were born because someone "told" them different.  They can't even get the name of the "dance studio" correct as they read over here and then post over there to show how smart they are.


http://www.dancestudios.com/

Dark Lord


----------



## Michael Billings

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> http://www.dancestudios.com/
> 
> Dark Lord


 Cute man, Cute.

 You go Clyde!!

 -MB


----------



## Doc

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> Cute man, Cute.
> 
> You go Clyde!!
> 
> -MB



With respect to the Dark Lord who posted the link and MJ, it hadn't occurred to me that Arthur Murray's Dance Studios would still be in business. 

From their website comes something that sounds very familiar. Just insert the correct *word(s)*.

THE BASIC TEN QUESTIONS

Here are 10 questions most frequently asked by prospective new students.

Can I learn to dance? *(fight - defend myself)*

Dancing *(self-defense)* is as easy as walking once you are taught by an Arthur Murray *(Kenpo instructor)*expert. Hundreds of thousands have been successfully trained In Arthur Murray Dance *(Ed Parker)* Studios. There is no age limit. Our oldest students are over 70. The youngest are usually in their early teens. The vast majority are in their 20s, 30s, 40s, and 50s.

Will it take long? *(to learn to defend myself)*

The length of the course depends on how many dances *(belts)* you would like to learn *(attain)* and how proficient you would like to become in each dance *(belt level)*. However, you will be able to dance *(defend yourself)* after your first lesson.

Is your system *(style)* of teaching *(self-defense)* difficult?
We teach four *(many)* simple basic movements *(techniques)*, from which the new combinations are derived.

How much do the lessons *(different belts)* cost?

The cost depends on a number of factors: how good you want to be; what dances *(belts)* you want to learn *(attain)*; the number of days and weeks in your dance *(training)* schedule, etc. Your first lesson is free. After your first lesson, your instructor will be in a better position to recommend a program *(charge you)* and you will have the knowledge to make an intelligent and informed choice.

Does the fee have to be paid in advance?

There are several convenient methods of payment available. * Visa, Mastercard, check, cash, belt plans, etc.)* If you prefer, you can budget the fee in small installmentsto suit your needs.

Will I learn the *(advanced techniques, death touch, Bruce Lee stuff, be able to jump high, etc.)* steps?

You can learn the very latest steps *(techniques)* in any or all social *(street confrontations)* dances-Swing, Hustle, Disco, Samba, Merengue, Fox Trot, Rumba, Cha-Cha, Mambo, Waltz, Tango, etc.{b](guns, knives, punches, kicks, etc)[/b] Novelty or fad dances *(grappling and MMA)*are also taught.

Will I have to return each year to learn the newest steps *(techniques)*? *(if I stop training)*

After getting a good foundation *(learning the basics)* , you will be able to analyze *(understand motion)*the new steps *(embark on a kenpo discovery Journey)* and pick them up yourself *(discover new motions)* without difficulty. However, many students return because they enjoy their lessons *(getting more belts)*and the friends and confidence theyve acquired. *(to spend more money)*

May I take the lesson at any time convenient to me? *(What is your class schedule)*

Take your lessons at any time you wish. Our studios are open from 10:00 AM until 10:00 PM Monday through Friday; Noon to 5:00 PM Saturday. *(Sundays are tournament days)*

Will I have a good teacher? *(instructor)*

All of our teachers *(instructors)* are competent *(champions, fighters, experienced, etc.)*. The teachers selected for you are ones who best suit your personality. To qualify as Arthur Murray teachers *(Ed Parker Instructors)*, they must complete *(train, spend)* a most arduous *(expensive)* *(through all of the belts to black)* training regimen.

What benefits do I derive?

Dancing *(self-defense)* is our first line of social activity *(personal defense)*. Good dancing *(the ability to defend yourself)* is a lifetime investment in *(protecting yourself and love ones)* fun, poise, confidence, improved personality and new friends. Beyond these, dancing *(Kenpo)* is a superb physical conditioner- providing fun without working at it! It opens up a wonderful new world of togetherness and a thriving year-round *(expensive)*social calendar!


----------



## Doc

> I only mentioned it because you never know... someday I might run into you at a seminar, and you'd be expecting a sir.



And be pleasantly surprised.



> Now that that is out of the way, let me please say that this is a brilliant post! You are like living history, and have an amazing memory.



Its OK to just say old. Its really not a big deal when you live it. Then it just becomes memories. I watched Lee Harvey get shot live on TV by Jack Ruby. For some its history, for me its just a memory.



> This is what I've been searching for. Thank you for sharing all of this! The history is fascinating and reading it is like having a light turned on. The business model that is kenpo gives me the perspective I needed. Please let me know if it is alright to quote you on some of this.



Absolutely but my quotes can get you into fights.



> I recently saw a video clip of Joe Louis speaking about Ed Parker and now I understand what he meant when he said he was, "a good businessman." (as well as being a complete person).



Make no mistake about it, Ed Parker was the best and a good man with a good heart, but he was a businessman who had a rather large family to take care of. It shouldnt be strange that he capitalized on his skill and business acumen to make a living from the arts. He wasnt the only one, and in fact he wasnt even first. His own students Al & Jim Tracy embarked on a franchise system of Kenpo schools as well. And although they ultimately were bigger and had more schools, they lacked the conceptual foundation that Parker developed to sell Kenpo, and they were intensely driven by the business aspect. Successful for sure, but not quite as good in my opinion because Al spent too much time trying to break out of the Parker shadow and attempting to discredit Ed Parker with outlandish claims.

Whereas Parker attempted to develop instructors for his affiliate schools, Al simply bought them utilizing anyone with a legitimate MA background, kenpo or not. Much like his well-known Tournament Fighting Team. He hired Joe Lewis to head it up along with other guys from kenpo like Richard Willett, and Shorin Ryu Champion Jerry Smith, who became Joes best student and the only other authority on Joes competition methodology handed down from Bruce Lee.




> This part is unfortunate really. Did Mr. Parker make visits to or keep in contact with the various school owners who purchased the model? Or was that done through the IKKA?



Parker spent a great deal of time on the road staying in touch with students as much as humanly possible. But with students all over the world, he saw most very rarely and even then, spent little quality teacher time with them. Most of the time it was seminars, local promotions, and selling of patches, books, and merchandise.

Those of us who lived in southern California were a little better off because he had to come home, but few saw him more than once a week in a group setting. The rest of the time he was on the road.



> Interesting and kind of funny that a model for a karate system would be based on that of a dance school - there is some irony there. However Kenpo schools as well as Arthur Murray schools are still all around, providing proof of what a great business model it is. Today, we still come for the "free" gi and private lesson, but on some level don't you think that most people are aware that they are being reeled in? At least I was, but I wanted to be, and ultimately you would not stay in an activity where your needs weren't being met.



Well thats the secret. Most dont really think they can fight. Ive heard many question how they were taught a technique, and many confided, Id never use that in the real world. Than there are minorities who run very physical classes like Bob White and Larry Tatum who give some of their students a sense of what a fight is about, and learn a sense of survival.



> This part helps me to understand a lot, but honestly is a little disappointing, but not surprising. Here's something I'd considered. In most karate schools students are expected to accumulate a certain number of teaching hours in order to advance in rank. This to me is proliferation within a school.



You are indeed correct, but that is the proliferation model.



> Eventually a head instructor would not have to teach many classes at all. I'm aware of it though and like giving back through teaching so it doesn't much bother me. However, it does concern me that people may be pushed into moving along in the ranks, or begin teaching too soon in order to establish a team of instructors in a school.



Of course, what could be better as a business owner than to have someone pay you for lessons until they can pay you to teach for you?



> In our school we pushed to have a class to prepare for teaching. I was not comfortable with the idea of teaching things that I felt I barely had grasped myself. Also, some people are more suited to being teachers than others, and in my opinion having this be a mandatory requirement is not always in everyone's best interest.



You are correct. In my program everything is based on an academic model. Students may, if they desire, acquire ranking however this is nothing more than a certificate indicating they have passed the course and their grade. Numerical ranking after black belt is considered honorary at all levels. Those who would teach must obtain a teaching credential separately for each level. This credential is not permanent and will expire periodically and must be renewed. This upholds the tradition of granting rank for various reasons, without corrupting the integrity of the curriculum. No one individual may bestow rank or certification. This may only be accomplished by a committee or board of deans.



> First let me say that this quote does not upset me I see it as the truth. I need not imagine here. I live this. The fact is I am a woman, and I've never been in a fight in my life. I am on the heels of passing the course after five years. I'm teaching people, and I question it myself. Still how do you gain real world experience? You can't exactly go out into the streets and pick fights with your neighbors, but I totally see your point. I'm just not sure what could be done about it. I suppose sparring is a bit like the driver's education simulation car. I learn a lot there, but in some ways I know it is not a real fight for my life.



It is one of the great paradoxes of the methodology. The only answer is to make the courses as realistic as possible and taught by those with significant real world experience. The senior instructor that runs the basics lower division curriculum in our group is a retired captain from the United States Marine Corps, and a senior ranking agent with the Drug Enforcement Administration. 

Other instructors and students include senior and ranking representation from the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department, The Los Angeles Police Department, the United State Marshal Service, The Federal Bureau of Investigation, The United States Secret Service, The California Highway Patrol, The Inglewood Police Department, and other lettered agencies and/or departments I may not mention. Those who will point out any discrepancies immediately in reality-based training constantly scrutinize our curriculum.



> Do you still teach? How do you approach your teaching? I'm not sure how to reference this...there is the business model of kenpo that you've already said that you don't subscribe to, but what other ways are there to refer to kenpo being that it is not a single entity? I'm just not sure what the right words are.



Yes, I teach regularly, however from the perspective of anatomically efficient and functional body mechanics, which is not a part of the motion based business model. Many speak of anatomy and structural integrity but I usually break them down in about 30 seconds in comparison. Most dont have the knowledge regardless of rank.



> This is the fun stuff! I see here you were very close.
> [/quote
> Well yes, but everybody was, werent they? J
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I imagine he had lots of names for you too!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well yes, one came when I went to JC and became a broadcasting major and did radio for a while he called me golden voice. During the years I was the executive director of the IKC I always introduced Mr. Parker, and the Official Voice of the IKC the late Bob Perry to open the event. Bob Perry than took over from there and announced the rest of the show while I juggled demos, music, officials, and competitors.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All of this information on the phases is extremely helpful to me as an instructor. It clears some things up. Thanks!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Yeah its kind of funny but when you read it again from a different perspective, it makes sense. And its been right there in the green belt manual all along.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm understanding so much more about this, but it's a little hard, only in the fact that up until a short while ago only one Kenpo existed for me. I think that changed a bit last year when I attended the Kenpo Karate Internationals in Boston. That's when I first really began to notice the differences and make comparisons. Especially in the seminars - which were great!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Everyone has something to offer and a level of validity. The secret is to seek the level you wish to aspire to, and most important, dont think what you have is all there is. There are levels of Parkers Kenpo that when demonstrated can take on the look and feel of magic. Thats why I called him simply, The Magician. And like any good magician, he might show you the trick, but he wouldn't reveal how he did it to most.
Click to expand...


----------



## teej

Well Doc, you have stimulated many questions. I anticipate my instructor e-mailing me to "call him" after he gets the e-mail of questions I just fired off to him. lol

What is the difference between Kenpo never changing, Kenpo tayloring, or a watered down version of Kenpo due to commercializing?

Please correct me as I may be way off on my interpertation from some of the things you posted. Due to business and commercializing decisions, in your opinion, has Kenpo been watered down in some areas?

Do you see any area where presently Kenpo is evolving in a positive way, being taken to a higher level or possibly improving?

What direction would you like to see Kenpo go and what steps would take Kenpo there?

Yours in Kenpo,
Teej


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc said:
			
		

> Its OK to just say old.


:lol:  LOL...I guess I neglected to mention that I thought I'd heard somewhere that you were about two years old when you first started learning Kenpo...uhhh...something about a child prodigy. 




> Absolutely but my quotes can get you into fights.


  That's ok it seems I could use the experience  .





> Make no mistake about it, Ed Parker was the best and a good man with a good heart, but he was a businessman who had a rather large family to take care of. It shouldnt be strange that he capitalized on his skill and business acumen to make a living from the arts.


 No it is very understandable, but just a thought, as with any business there can sometimes exist a conflict of interest between what's best for the family and what's best for the clients of the business.  



> Whereas Parker attempted to develop instructors for his affiliate schools, Al simply bought them utilizing anyone with a legitimate MA background, kenpo or not. Much like his well-known Tournament Fighting Team. He hired Joe Lewis to head it up along with other guys from kenpo like Richard Willett, and Shorin Ryu Champion Jerry Smith, who became Joes best student and the only other authority on Joes competition methodology handed down from Bruce Lee.


  Interesting...Joe Lewis did appear to have a lot of respect for Ed Parker in spite of his affiliation with the Tracys.



> Well thats the secret. Most dont really think they can fight. Ive heard many question how they were taught a technique, and many confided, Id never use that in the real world. Than there are minorities who run very physical classes like Bob White and Larry Tatum who give some of their students a sense of what a fight is about, and learn a sense of survival.


I definitely agree that people feel this way about some Kenpo techniques.  Some of the techniques really do not seem to be practical, especially for everyone to utilize in a fight, and I have questioned a few myself and have seen others question them as well.  I think the application of a particular technique in the "real world" depends on many variables including state of mind at the moment, amount of prior practice, proper tailoring, the application of elements of focus, ability to use proper alignment, ability to use torque and gravitational marriage and characteristics of body type (size, height, weight, speed, agility, flexibility and strength) and I'm sure lots of things I've yet to fully understand.  I can tell you in real life I will never try the takedown in Falling Falcon on a really big guy, but I don't think it is impractical for a big guy to use the takedown in that technique. I think it is really ok, actually important to be aware of what may or may not work for you individually.  This is where I think using the sd techniques as ideas or as part of the "alphabet of motion" that Ed Parker discusses in Infinite Insights becomes most important.  Ultimately, for me it is just important to be able to apply and or combine a part or parts of techniques in the moment to do enough damage to safely escape an attack.  You have to have faith in some of the things that you do, and I do have faith in many things that I've learned. I find a move like Arching Blades to be perfect for me!  It's effective, blinding and allows me to utilize my speed.   It does seem important to be able to develop a greater sense of "survival" though.  I've seen some of Larry Tatum's stuff and I've liked what I've seen of it.  I'd like to learn more about what both these men do that's different.  




> You are correct. In my program everything is based on an academic model. Students may, if they desire, acquire ranking however this is nothing more than a certificate indicating they have passed the course and their grade. Numerical ranking after black belt is considered honorary at all levels. Those who would teach must obtain a teaching credential separately for each level. This credential is not permanent and will expire periodically and must be renewed. This upholds the tradition of granting rank for various reasons, without corrupting the integrity of the curriculum. No one individual may bestow rank or certification. This may only be accomplished by a committee or board of deans.


 This is an enlightened approach.  This is very appealing to me on many levels!





> Those who will point out any discrepancies immediately in reality-based training constantly scrutinize our curriculum.


 This is an excellent idea.  We do have a police officer who trains with us...I'll have to pick his brain.  




> Yes, I teach regularly, however from the perspective of anatomically efficient and functional body mechanics, which is not a part of the motion based business model. Many speak of anatomy and structural integrity but I usually break them down in about 30 seconds in comparison. Most dont have the knowledge regardless of rank.


  This is interesting.  I'd like to know more about your ideas on this.  Have you published anything on this?  If not, do you think at another time you could share some of these ideas?  Perhaps in a different thread...



> Well yes, one came when I went to JC and became a broadcasting major and did radio for a while he called me golden voice.


  I'll have to locate a copy of Sophisticated Basics to relate to this... 




> Everyone has something to offer and a level of validity. The secret is to seek the level you wish to aspire to, and most important, dont think what you have is all there is. There are levels of Parkers Kenpo that when demonstrated can take on the look and feel of magic. Thats why I called him simply, The Magician. And like any good magician, he might show you the trick, but he wouldn't reveal how he did it to most.


 Thanks Doc - it's a good prescription.   Maybe there is a magician with the potential to be developed in us all.  Maybe for some it only comes to look like magic through a lifetime of personal self discovery as a Martial Artist.  At any rate, it's something for us all to try and aspire to.

To Sumdumbguy:  Really, take the red pill:armed:...you'll find it's totally worth the trip!!!


----------



## Doc

> Well Doc, you have stimulated many questions. I anticipate my instructor e-mailing me to "call him" after he gets the e-mail of questions I just fired off to him. Lol



I beg your pardon. It wasnt me.
I have no idea what youre talking about. :idunno: 



> What is the difference between Kenpo never changing, Kenpo tayloring, or a watered down version of Kenpo due to commercializing?



An interesting question to be sure, but what you are really doing here is talking about a single concept, not three. 

Lets start with the watered down commercial Kenpo comment. Personally I do not see this as watered down. The fact that there are advanced physical principles and concepts not contained therein do not make it watered down.  

If you had a functional intact older automobile that got you from place to place, would it be considered watered down if someone else also had a similar but newer vehicle with satellite FM/AM radio, CD changer, power seats, air, etc. that you dont have?  They both serve their intended purpose.

Now there are some, (and Ive seen them) who actually have watered down the concept because of a lack of knowledge and skill, but the concept is an entity unto itself. It is designed to do one simple thing, and that it can do reasonably well, predicated on the teacher. 

Because it is all conceptually driven, it relies heavily on the skills, knowledge, and teaching ability of the head instructor and those under him/her to interpret the many concepts and make them viable for the student. Than, in turn the student can do the same for him/her self. It is only as good or bad as its interpreter. It is designed to do just that, and although the design itself limits the inclusion of certain things, it is not watered down. It simply is what it is. Only its many, many interpreters make it good or bad. Parker created it to do exactly what it does.

As far as tailoring, that is a concept that is a part of the commercial design. It is what allows students and teachers alike to interpret the concepts. Without tailoring, there is no commercial kenpo. Ed Parker therefore promoted and encouraged tailoring, and it is a part of his genius. 

It is what attracted other accomplished martial artists from other styles to him. This was an innovative feature that very much benefited the experienced that were accustomed to the common single rigidity of most other arts. This tailoring on the positive side, allowed the necessary flexibility to teach a geographically diverse conceptual art that really had only one expert. On the negative side of the ledger, it tended to benefit the physically adept and experienced, and left much to be desired for less capable teachers and their beginner students.

The never changing kenpo is a bit more interesting. You will hear some state they choose to not change anything, out of respect for Mr. Parker. This seems flawed to me for several reasons. First the material is all conceptual anyway and interpreted by them, so what they are really saying is, they dont want to change their personal interpretation or their understanding of the material. That seems flawed to me, especially since Ed Parker said specifically many times (including in Infinite Insights), not to do that. So in respecting Ed Parker, they choose to disrespect his wishes.

What I think is really happening is some are not interested in the growth of their students or additional knowledge even for themselves. They sit on their belts under the guise of respecting Ed Parker. Its just easier than thinking, working, and improving as a teacher.

I cant think of anything in our society that doesnt improve and change. Everything evolves whether we like it or not. Anything that doesnt, we call old and/or obsolete. You know what gets old and obsolete first? Conceptual ideas. Commercial Kenpo is completely conceptual. Although the business model itself will probably always be viable to a certain extent, the methodology must keep up with its ever-changing customer base, as any business must.



> Do you see any area where presently Kenpo is evolving in a positive way, being taken to a higher level or possibly improving?



What Kenpo? Yours? Somebody elses perhaps? I can't say it enough. The business model of Kenpo is not a single entity and hasnt been ever since Parker split off the proliferation conceptual version. It has never been, nor will it ever be. Because it is designed to be interpreted, whos to say whose is better or improving? As long as students and teachers get what they want from it, than they and Parker have done their job.



> What direction would you like to see Kenpo go and what steps would take Kenpo there?



For the business model there is not much hope to get it beyond what it is. Ed Parker knew that, and it is also why he never stopped working on the art for himself. All of the things that are flawed and negative about commercial kenpo are the things that Parker designed in it to allow it to exist. Unfortunately, the numbers of teachers that have the ability to overcome those flaws are too few.

That is why I am not in the business of kenpo. It allows me to allow only a certain quality of committed student to become a part of our student body. It allows me to teach the strict basics and methodologies necessary to build skills for advanced applications. But then again, thats what everybody says.


----------



## Doc

Its OK to just say old. 


> LOL...I guess I neglected to mention that I thought I'd heard somewhere that you were about two years old when you first started learning Kenpo...uhhh...something about a child prodigy.



Uhhhh, yeah! Thats right a prodigy. Yeah, thats the ticket. Baby I was!



> No it is very understandable, but just a thought, as with any business there can sometimes exist a conflict of interest between what's best for the family and what's best for the clients of the business.



Whereas that is true, Ed Parker delivered what he said he would. The fact that some have taken to thinking it is more than they should is another story. Ed Parker in speaking about his many schools said, Just because the red show dont mean you know. He knew ranking was out of control and was mostly for business purposes. Still a commercial rank is just that; a commercial rank.



> Interesting...Joe Lewis did appear to have a lot of respect for Ed Parker in spite of his affiliation with the Tracys.



Joe was always his own man. He just got a paycheck from the Tracys.



> I definitely agree that people feel this way about some Kenpo techniques. Some of the techniques really do not seem to be practical, especially for everyone to utilize in a fight, and I have questioned a few myself and have seen others question them as well. I think the application of a particular technique in the "real world" depends on many variables including state of mind at the moment, amount of prior practice, proper tailoring, the application of elements of focus, ability to use proper alignment, ability to use torque and gravitational marriage and characteristics of body type (size, height, weight, speed, agility, flexibility and strength) and I'm sure lots of things I've yet to fully understand. I can tell you in real life I will never try the takedown in Falling Falcon on a really big guy, but I don't think it is impractical for a big guy to use the takedown in that technique. I think it is really ok, actually important to be aware of what may or may not work for you individually. This is where I think using the sd techniques as ideas or as part of the "alphabet of motion" that Ed Parker discusses in Infinite Insights becomes most important.
> 
> 
> 
> If you say so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an enlightened approach. This is very appealing to me on many levels!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> works for me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is an excellent idea. We do have a police officer who trains with us...I'll have to pick his brain.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good idea.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is interesting. I'd like to know more about your ideas on this. Have you published anything on this? If not, do you think at another time you could share some of these ideas? Perhaps in a different thread...
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but without a background in strict physical basics, it would be difficult to grasp.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Doc - it's a good prescription. Maybe there is a magician with the potential to be developed in us all. Maybe for some it only comes to look like magic through a lifetime of personal self discovery as a Martial Artist. At any rate, it's something for us all to try and aspire to.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Amen  Go Lakers!!!!!!
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


----------



## mj-hi-yah

> Go Lakers!!!!!!


The Lakers??? Ok Doc, now we have something to debate!!! :wink1:


----------



## teej

Doc said:
			
		

> Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.



This statement stimulated my thought process. As you pointed out, I never gave much thought to the original Kenpo, or more spicifically, Ed Parkers "original intentions". I for one am one of the ones that thought I was learning and teaching what the art had evolved into as Mr. Parker wanted it to.

I think I now have a better understanding of the "commercial" impact to the art. Please correct me to help me better understand what you mean. This is what I have picked up thus far from your comments. [i may have interpretated some of your views incorrectly.]

In the beginning, Ed Parker was able to teach a very effective street fighting art, building a core of tough practitioners from students with previous martial art back grounds and/or street fighting experience. I am sure SGM Parker was able to imploy some very effective training techniques.

To teach the masses and spread Kenpo, Mr. Parker developed the idea of "tayloring" to the individual. A fantastic business idea, but it came with consequences to the art. Individuals without tough backgrounds were now being taught the art in a different way. Instructors were being kicked out that had no street background. Kind of like learning to fly from someone that has never piloted before. 

Ranks started to fly out there for commercial reasons. {which is why there are instructors out there wearing high ranking Kenpo black belts and patches, but they don't know the material and/or body mechanics} (heck Doc, at times I step on toes too.)

Here is a question. What is your definition of the "conceptual version"? 

How would you suggest to the instructors out there training themselves or instructing to overcome the "flaws" of commercial kenpo? You mentioned training with law enforcement and military individuals. How does your training/instruction differ from the "commercialized" version?

As this thread originated with questions pertaining to the "Infinite Insight" series, what value do volumes 1-5 hold for the version that you teach?

Teej

{thank you for stimulating thought. all of my questions are of a genuine desire for better understanding. please do not take anything I may have said or asked personally. I deeply appreciate and respect your impact and views.}


----------



## sumdumguy

Doc said:
			
		

> The never changing kenpo is a bit more interesting. You will hear some state they choose to not change anything, out of respect for Mr. Parker. This seems flawed to me for several reasons. First the material is all conceptual anyway and interpreted by them, so what they are really saying is, they dont want to change their personal interpretation or their understanding of the material. That seems flawed to me, especially since Ed Parker said specifically many times (including in Infinite Insights), not to do that. So in respecting Ed Parker, they choose to disrespect his wishes.
> 
> What I think is really happening is some are not interested in the growth of their students or additional knowledge even for themselves. They sit on their belts under the guise of respecting Ed Parker. Its just easier than thinking, working, and improving as a teacher.



Perfectly Stated Doc, couldn't agree more... Bravo Bravo
 :asian:


----------



## Doc

Originally Posted by Doc
Interesting perspectives, however the Infinite Insights do not represent Ed Parker's "...original intentions ... for the art ..." unless you're speaking only of his later commercial art. His first book, "Secrets of Chinese "Karate" more closely represents his original intentions once he came to the mainland. Circumstances caused him to create an alternate and simultaneously evolving art he began to represent in his second book, "Kenpo Karate." Many of the important things in this book too were also stripped away when he embraced the "motion" only concept for commercial dissemination. Perhaps you might go back a bit further and examine those historical published works as well so that you might form a broader opinion.



> This statement stimulated my thought process. As you pointed out, I never gave much thought to the original Kenpo, or more spicifically, Ed Parkers "original intentions". I for one am one of the ones that thought I was learning and teaching what the art had evolved into as Mr. Parker wanted it to.



This misunderstanding is common for those who began their training in the commercial art in the seventies or later. Naturally anyone who started then would presume that it is the only kenpo or the final product of a Parker kenpo evolution. Of course there are some who claim they stated with Parker earlier than they actually did for obvious reasons. There is at least one well-known, now very high ranked student not on the family tree (circa 1981) that only knew Parker for a few years in the eighties. When you look at their rank and the time they actually knew Parker, it is out of balance even by the commercial standard of awarding rank. Think of this version of kenpo as a "divergence" from other things he was doing, and not THE definitive kenpo of Ed Parker.





> I think I now have a better understanding of the "commercial" impact to the art. Please correct me to help me better understand what you mean. This is what I have picked up thus far from your comments. [i may have interpretated some of your views incorrectly.]
> 
> In the beginning, Ed Parker was able to teach a very effective street fighting art, building a core of tough practitioners from students with previous martial art back grounds and/or street fighting experience. I am sure SGM Parker was able to imploy some very effective training techniques.



Very well said.  When Parker originally came to the mainland, Kenpo was much more simplistic but much more physical. So much so only tough guys participated, and a black belt could be attained in less than a year. Only the very physical would even consider joining one of these classes. He brought with him the island tradition of, class isnt over until there is some blood on the mat. Ladies, and children werent allowed. Once the commercial kenpo was launched the business was immediately overwhelmed by children, then followed by the less physical males and finally females. Children so dominated the schools and increased revenue, that Parker started me working on an adjustment in the rank process to include children, the less physical, art transfer students, and even sport ranking to prevent cross contamination of the process.



> To teach the masses and spread Kenpo, Mr. Parker developed the idea of "tayloring" to the individual.



Well actually he developed the idea of a motion-based art first (from watching himself on film in reverse), that allowed students to study simple motion and then tailor it to their own needs. A brilliant concept that was and still is anomalous in the martial arts. It created a commercial success, but had serious consequences without a real Parker generated hierarchy base. Each teacher and even the student were encouraged to create and define their own base interpretation. Clearly, no real depth can come when the physical base of the art is created by the individual from nebulous concepts, beyond the individuals own creativity. 

Still, its a brilliant concept that performed well to its expectations. The problems arise when practitioners assign more to it then it deserves, reaching beyond Mr. Parkers own expectations based on known limitations by the progenitor. This however is not indigenous to just kenpo. Even today there are disagreements among the Japanese, Indonesian, Chinese, Hawaiian, and Filipino arts with regards to the creation of competition and commercial models that will overshadow more sophisticated information in the depth of these arts. Typically the more recent lean more toward commercial and sport applications. Nothing new. Parker just did such a good job, that his commercial art naturally supplanted his personal one. No surprise there. The more people doing it, the less depth in can have. The higher the depth of the information, the less people have an understanding and access. The idea of accepting virtually anyone who comes in the door, regardless of education, age, gender, and physicality capabilities has significance to any art as a whole over time. Additionally the American culture has virtually for various reasons embraced the "sport" of martial arts as a representation of the real arts. It is not nor has it ever been, but the "selling" takes place on more levels than just Ed Parker's kenpo.



> A fantastic business idea, but it came with consequences to the art. Individuals without tough backgrounds were now being taught the art in a different way. Instructors were being kicked out that had no street background. Kind of like learning to fly from someone that has never piloted before.



I like that. Very well said. As a side note when I talked to Mr. Parker about the concept, he said that there would be some that would rise to the occasion and be quite good. He told me about a swimming coach at a school in Hawaii that produced nothing but champions. He told me of the many innovative ways he trained his swimmers, but then interjected the coach, couldnt swim. I said yeah, but those people are rare. But Parker said, Yes that is true, but they still do exist.



> Ranks started to fly out there for commercial reasons. {which is why there are instructors out there wearing high ranking Kenpo black belts and patches, but they don't know the material and/or body mechanics} (heck Doc, at times I step on toes too.)



Thanks for the back up. I think most people know this but just dont want to say or admit it. Lower student generated expectations, video black belts, etc. I dont know what the big deal is, after all Parker said it himself.



> Here is a question. What is your definition of the "conceptual version"?



The version based on infinite motion with constituent pseudo-science concepts that promotes maximum flexibility for all with obvious limitations. Most have missed the fact that although abstract motion is infinite, human anatomical movement is not with serious limitations. Have you noticed the large number of Kenpo practitioners who are having surgery on various joints? Notably hips, shoulders, and knees that are subject to inappropriate movements are quite common. Even guys like Chuck Norris, and Bill Wallace have had double hips replacement surgery from questionable body mechanics. Proper striking mechanics are not generally taught in any martial art. Even boxing relies a lot on muscles and mass. Well known kenpo people as well have had multiple shoulder and hip surgeries.



> How would you suggest to the instructors out there training themselves or instructing to overcome the "flaws" of commercial kenpo?



I think most of those who earnestly want to are, for the most part already dong it. There are reasons why many are defecting to other disciplines to fill the holes in their, and their instructors kenpo. They obviously have taken note of significant deficiencies in their lessons and applications.

Many are gravitating to grappling and sport arts to ratchet up the level of reality. In a grappling venue, sport or otherwise, the reality feedback is immediate. Bad body mechanics are exposed immediately. The limitations here are obvious as well. Sport applications remove street possibilities that break sporting rules and teach suspect methodologies that are effective under the umbrella of a referees protection if it fails, versus serious injury or death on the street. A scissors take-down is a great sport technique, but would you try it in a crowded parking lot of a bar when your life may be on the line? 

Still this type of training is better than the majority of the kenpo techniques Ive seen from many instructors. At least they are learning to be really physical. Thats why I admire Bob White so much, (not to slight some others that I dont know personally.  Ive just known Bob over three decades). In my opinion, he recognized some significant deficiencies in the technique based self defense model, and injected his own personality to create a serious street sparring curriculum that has not only proved to be consistently successful in competition, but creates a tough physical and mental survival attitude in his students. 

His students exemplify the words, tough hard nosed.  You want to bang with his people? Bring a lunch, and a good attitude cause if you got a chip, theyll knock it off. I might add they are as nice as they are tough, and they are very tough. Bob wouldnt have it any other way.

Beyond that, I would examine the technique applications and ask the hard questions brought out by realistic training. Does this really work? If the answer is no, find someone who can make it work for real, or abandon it. Dont teach the curriculum just so you can give a person a belt. Of course you may find out there isnt much left except the stomp on his foot, rupture the balls, smash the throat, finger in the eyes, methodology that works with no training at all. Isnt that what they teach in those one-day no belt self-defense courses? Ask yourself, Where is the real skill?



> You mentioned training with law enforcement and military individuals. How does your training/instruction differ from the "commercialized" version?



I was taught differently. Everything I learned is based on an understanding of anatomically correct and efficient body mechanic application. A Psychology of Confrontation component also examines the offensive goals of an attacker(s) and how to negate them mentally and physically. I WAS NOT taught secret information, however I was taught information I was capable of utilizing in a non-business environment, and I was a working uniform police officer, and we were working on a project specifically for public law enforcement personnel that required a significantly more realistic approach not applicable in commercial schools. I simply have continued in the direction Parker was taking me. Also I began my initial study under an instructor that Parker also studied with, and therefore my understanding more closely mirrored some of his own experiences.



> As this thread originated with questions pertaining to the "Infinite Insight" series, what value do volumes 1-5 hold for the version that you teach?



They are an interesting historical reference work into the legacy of Ed Parker and of his divergence into martial arts commercialism. They are required reading for my students from that perspective. They are not textbooks, nor are they reference works for the methodology that I teach whose genesis predates what was essentially dated information, (according to Ed Parker) by the time they were published. My own teachings more closely mirrored Mr. Parkers personal evolution, not his commercial one.





> {thank you for stimulating thought. all of my questions are of a genuine desire for better understanding. please do not take anything I may have said or asked personally. I deeply appreciate and respect your impact and views.}



I never felt otherwise sir.


----------



## Doc

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> Perfectly Stated Doc, couldn't agree more... Bravo Bravo
> :asian:


Yeah, but you're biased. :asian:


----------



## sumdumguy

Biased? How or why would you say that? Honestly...... What elements of my intelect make me biased?
 :asian:


----------



## Doc

Doc said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you're biased. :asian:


you have a brain and you are an independent thinker. No "follow the leader." 

"No soup for you!"


----------



## sumdumguy

I have joined and taken camp classes with some of those knuckle heads that say that, on the other hand I have had some classes with some who don't follow such idiocracies. I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable. Ok, I am rambling sorry..... 
artyon:


----------



## Doc

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> I have joined and taken camp classes with some of those knuckle heads that say that, on the other hand I have had some classes with some who don't follow such idiocracies. I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable. Ok, I am rambling sorry.....
> artyon:



You know you're reambling to chior right?

fight in holding gotta gooooooo


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> You know you're rambling to chior right?


 Oh brother, are we holding hands now.....
 (all together).....

*Kum* *bye ahhhh*,


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Oh brother, are we holding hands now.....
> (all together).....
> 
> *Kum* *bye ahhhh*,


Dennis if you're going to continue with this childish jealousy, we're going to have to break it off. I didn't say anything when you didn't answer your phone Sunday.


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> Dennis if you're going to continue with this childish jealousy, we're going to have to break it off. I didn't say anything when you didn't answer your phone Sunday.


 That was you?!   I answered, but you didn't say anything!  (or were we in the pool) :idunno:


----------



## sumdumguy

Mr. Conatser lives!!!!! Good one Mr. C. I think holding hands is a bit strong, Doc lost me a couple of posts ago anyway..... Besides you know me a little bit and know that I don't subscribe to ALL the madness of commercial Kenpo. I have read all of Mr. Parker's books at least a few times and still re-read them on occasion. I am currently re-reading "The guide to the Nunchaku". You ever notice how much the nine planes come in to play with Nunchaku?
any whoooo
    I can't get away with saying things like Doc does though, so kudos are in order.... 
 :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> I have read all of Mr. Parker's books at least a few times and still re-read them on occasion. I am currently re-reading "The guide to the Nunchaku". You ever notice how much the nine planes come in to play with Nunchaku?
> :asian:


  Yes, I is here........:ultracool

 Yep, and the chucks are one of the most difficult of weapons to master (IMHO). The 'Planes' sure add dimension to the study of the weapon (not to mention empty hand stuff), but those trains and automobiles are a hoot!:uhoh:

 Sure, anyone can swing them around like Bruce Lee, but to actually _master and control them_* "Kenpo Fashion"* is quite another job.

 Yes, every time I review the volumes or any of my notes for that matter I learn something new or create another project to research......LOL

  :redcaptur


----------



## Doc

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> That was you?!   I answered, but you didn't say anything!  (or were we in the pool) :idunno:



You're in the pool on a holiday and I was at work!!!!?????

No justice no peace, no justice no peace!


----------



## sumdumguy

In staying on topic with the Ifinite Insights.
    If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
Just curious.... 
 :asian:


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> You're in the pool on a holiday and I was at work!!!!?????
> No justice no peace, no justice no peace!


 *Huh???????........ Wrong.....!!!!!

You were maintaining Justice :mp5:and I was at Peace:wavey:!

 :ultracool



*


----------



## Goldendragon7

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly, why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
> Just curious....
> :asian:


 Damn good question!!
 :idunno:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> I think that the Infinite Insights are a great place for some people to start. However, in time they will either realize that there are holes in the teachings or not. Those who don't continue on with the sam ting and those do, move on. Holding some value (more sentimental than anything) on the II series. I personally like some of the quotes that Mr. Parker had in them... Particularly the ones that tell people to continue to research and understand what he is telling them. Better understanding, I believe take a person to a finite set of rules and principles. Governed more by the laws of nature and physics then concept and theory, since these have no "real" laws applied or that are applicable.


 


> In staying on topic with the Ifinite Insights.
> If so many people have read and read these books so much and so thouroghly why are some people not using some of the tools shown and or taught?
> Just curious....


Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?


----------



## Michael Billings

Of note, a bunch of the newer Kenpo students have a very difficult time, and if they can find them, usually it is about a months worth of tuition to get them.

 AND YES, I READ, RE-READ, and it seems that I find something new, or at least I see it in a different application, every time I read them.  Usually I read them at least a couple of times a year, maybe three or four on slow years.  We could count them by how many times read per decade now.

 -Michael


----------



## Rainman

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?



There is no contradiction just a lack of understanding on your part on what Mr. Durgan is saying.  Self defense techniques are conceptual... BOOK V.  It does require some interpretation because principles are used in place of concepts.  A theory that most teks use is zone cancellation.  Controlling height, width and depth by pin point accuracy which is a sub cat of targeting, also one of the eight considerations...  this gives us only a basis for real discussion if indeed all  parties have the basics.   

There are Laws- Universal laws that are to be used and understood but really most things are conceptual predicated by theory just the same as econ 101... You get the theory then you have to apply the theory by way of doing.  

So to answer your last inquiry yes.  Theory= leverage  Concept=fulcrum  BOOK V.  Simple enough right?  Not if you have not read the material and discussed how to use it with someone who can do it...

For neophytes I feel your pain- expensive and not readily available.  Many teachers nowadays have expanded the language and have have their own encyclopedia of concepts theories and principles...  They become more and more important as you progress and concepts theories and priciples eventually become the expression through physical manifestation...  Meaning you are using something as simple as marriage of gravity to align muscles and skeleton thus enhancing power by way of directional harmony or structural alignment or whatever you choose to highlight in a particular movement. 

Later on you may come to understand certain things work well in a particular order... every time with no varience.  The only real trick is finding teachers that will help you find this info...  And of course you may not need all this stuff- some people just want to learn to defend themselves and for that they need the how but not the why.


----------



## sumdumguy

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Just curious myself about some things you've said here that seem a bit contradictory, please consider this...if you really believe what you say above about there being no "real" laws applied or applicable in II how can you be curious about people who read and read II but are not applying or using tools that are shown or taught within? Can or do real tools exist in II to be applied if they are merely comprised of concept and theory?


   I didn't say there was nothing that was applicable, I said that some people eventually realize that the only real governing laws are universal laws (those of nature and physics). I also asked about "tools" not principles taught within the II because there are tools taught that can be used to further ones endeavours in the arts/kenpo. There is a difference between "tools" and "laws". I know your fairly new to this forum so I will tell you that the tools vs. principles argument has been done on other threads. Additionally you have to understand that I am not your average run of the mill Kenpo guy just plug'n along, therefore I have some different views and opinions... but that's all they are, just my views and opinions. That and 50 cents might get you a cup'o'joe at the nearest am/pm. Confrontation is my specialty, destruction my desire, not rank, glory, or money. Thanks..


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Rainman,



Thanks for your post.  You're right it's all about trying to understand and I think it depends on your point of view  where you happen to be standing at the time, and what experience you bring with you.  From my point of view, Im seeking knowledge read the books and understand and can relate to some/much of it, but I also have someone stretching my mind to question the scientific validity of some of these theories.  I see value in II, but as I gain experience and deeper understanding, that understanding gives way to further questioning.  Through questioning we learn to define and refine things for ourselves.  Its kind of funny because I dont necessarily disagree with what Mr. Durgan is saying.  I was interested in having him clarify his thoughts. In turn youre helping me to clarify mine.  In his first post it seemed he saw that people sometimes grow beyond II and those who do may find little value to hold onto there other than sentimental.  In his second post he seemed to me to defend the value of the tools within.  So at the same time Im trying to decide for myself which things hold value for me.  I suppose my question to him should have been, Other than sentimental, what value does II hold for you in the place you are in today?  






			
				Rainman said:
			
		

> There is no contradiction just a lack of understanding on your part on what Mr. Durgan is saying. Self defense techniques are conceptual... BOOK V.





I know that self defense techniques are by nature conceptual, being that they are based on "anticipated action"Book V.  Since we can not really anticipate someones actual actions and reactions in a fight they could not be otherwise.  I understand the difference between theory and concept, but would not claim to understand the applications of all. 






> It does require some interpretation because principles are used in place of concepts. A theory that most teks use is zone cancellation. Controlling height, width and depth by pin point accuracy which is a sub cat of targeting, also one of the eight considerations... this gives us only a basis for real discussion if indeed all parties have the basics.


 Agreed, and this is one I mostly grasp, and certainly more than I did at first.






> There are Laws- Universal laws that are to be used and understood but really most things are conceptual predicated by theory just the same as econ 101... You get the theory then you have to apply the theory by way of doing.


  Im with you here






> So to answer your last inquiry yes. Theory= leverage Concept=fulcrum BOOK V. Simple enough right? Not if you have not read the material and discussed how to use it with someone who can do it...


 Having a teacher who understands the applications is very important.  My instructor is very skilled, but he is also always learning and refining too. One of the reasons this forum is great is that it serves as a vehicle for the exchange of ideas from different points of view.  








> Many teachers nowadays have expanded the language and have their own encyclopedia of concepts theories and principles... They become more and more important as you progress and concepts theories and principles eventually become the expression through physical manifestation... Meaning you are using something as simple as marriage of gravity to align muscles and skeleton thus enhancing power by way of directional harmony or structural alignment or whatever you choose to highlight in a particular movement.


 This is where communication, seminars and forums such as these are so important.  In exchanging ideas we learn from the experience of others.  






> Later on you may come to understand certain things work well in a particular order... every time with no variance.



I need to work on this.






> The only real trick is finding teachers that will help you find this info


 Thats why Im hereso thanksyou all have a lot of experience and much to offer in this way, and I learn something each time I tune in.  






> ... And of course you may not need all this stuff- some people just want to learn to defend themselves and for that they need the how but not the why.


  I totally agree unless you are teaching.  In this case I think its very important to stretch yourself and continue to always learn.  



Respectfully,

MJ:asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> I didn't say there was nothing that was applicable, I said that some people eventually realize that the only real governing laws are universal laws (those of nature and physics). I also asked about "tools" not principles taught within the II because there are tools taught that can be used to further ones endeavours in the arts/kenpo. There is a difference between "tools" and "laws". I know your fairly new to this forum so I will tell you that the tools vs. principles argument has been done on other threads.


 Thanks for your clarification! I'll check out the tools vs. principles thread.



> Additionally you have to understand that I am not your average run of the mill Kenpo guy just plug'n along, therefore I have some different views and opinions... but that's all they are, just my views and opinions. That and 50 cents might get you a cup'o'joe at the nearest am/pm. Confrontation is my specialty, destruction my desire, not rank, glory, or money. Thanks..


 :ultracool I appreciate you for your divergent mode of thinking, and am interested in your point of view. If I wasn't, I wouldn't inquire. Following the provoking thoughts is how I prefer to learn. 

Respectfully,
MJ:asian:


----------



## sumdumguy

You have a long kenpo journey ahead of you. The insights you gain here on the forum and seminars and such will mostly all be good for a while. Alas it does become more and more dissapointing later in your personal journey though. Enjoy your youth in Kenpo and absorb what you can. It is however, easy to be mis-led. Take it for what it's worth, nothing is gospel and nothing is forever.... 

     I am but one person also closer to the beginning of my journey then the end, thus (sumdumguy). I don't have all the answers, (darn it!) but like yourself I am inquisitive and want to know. The Infinite Insights will defenitely help you along the way. There will come a time though, if you are truly continuing to evolve on a personal level, that you will come to some serious conclusions and... decisions will have to be made. Almost all of the things we do in life are stepping stones to other places, we just have to step on the right stones... lol
 :asian:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

sumdumguy said:
			
		

> You have a long kenpo journey ahead of you. The insights you gain here on the forum and seminars and such will mostly all be good for a while. Alas it does become more and more dissapointing later in your personal journey though. Enjoy your youth in Kenpo and absorb what you can. It is however, easy to be mis-led. Take it for what it's worth, nothing is gospel and nothing is forever....


  Oh,  and I so wanted to earn those steak knives!  



> I am but one person also closer to the beginning of my journey then the end, thus (sumdumguy).


 Might be time to change that name... The more you know the more you know you don't know ...that's a person who knows... how about? onesmartdude  



> I don't have all the answers, (darn it!) but like yourself I am inquisitive and want to know. The Infinite Insights will defenitely help you along the way. There will come a time though, if you are truly continuing to evolve on a personal level, that you will come to some serious conclusions and... decisions will have to be made. Almost all of the things we do in life are stepping stones to other places, we just have to step on the right stones...


  Change, that's what makes the ride fun! 
Think I'll look to step on some stones avoid the toes.  Thanks :asian:


----------



## Rainman

> I know that self defense techniques are by nature conceptual, being that they are based on "anticipated action"Book V. Since we can not really anticipate someones actual actions and reactions in a fight they could not be otherwise. I understand the difference between theory and concept, but would not claim to understand the applications of all.



No not based on anticpated action... In the particular direction of that statement- the conditioned response (one of the earlier stages of subconscious action) would or should be thought of and anticpation should be axed if and only if you are anticipating your opponent.   We are proactive that is for sure but we need to make sure we are on cadence with our opponent.  An anticipated move allows you to be set up.  

Of course EP used visualization with the statement of *remedy anticipated moves*.  What he left out in this particular circumstance (but was also stated earlier) is zone cancellation.  He is talking about your chess game MJ.  So aniticipation in this circumstance is very large.  Because you have already read about the quadrant zone theory you may base your response to an attack by playing zone defense.    You may anticipate an attack by using the same response to all four zones with only a minor adjustment.  You don't know what the attack is until the opponent shows you in some way or another.   The conditioned response obtained with the 154 sd teks (along with your free fighting) will tell you where your opponent is going unless they have set you up- framed you- and/or are just have a better chess game.    

So let me clean this up a little better... The anticipation is really in the execution of a flawless tek,  meaning you have cancelled their zones and got the restraint,  similated kill, created distance to get away, or threw them in some sort of fashion and the threat has been removed.  We in AK don't anticipate what the other guy does... If we were to anticipate something it would be reactions from hitting targets on the most appropriate angle with enough power to create more targets (or open those targets for a specific sequence) and cancel height width and depth... 

Thanks for giving me something to talk about MJ... You will make a fine Blackbelt.


----------



## sumdumguy

> MJ-HI-YA
> Thanks for your post. You're right it's all about trying to understand and I think it depends on your point of view  where you happen to be standing at the time, and what experience you bring with you. From my point of view, Im seeking knowledge read the books and understand and can relate to some/much of it, but I also have someone stretching my mind to question the scientific validity of some of these theories. I see value in II, but as I gain experience and deeper understanding, that understanding gives way to further questioning. Through questioning we learn to define and refine things for ourselves. Its kind of funny because I dont necessarily disagree with what Mr. Durgan is saying. I was interested in having him clarify his thoughts. In turn youre helping me to clarify mine. In his first post it seemed he saw that people sometimes grow beyond II and those who do may find little value to hold onto there other than sentimental. In his second post he seemed to me to defend the value of the tools within. So at the same time Im trying to decide for myself which things hold value for me. I suppose my question to him should have been, Other than sentimental, what value does II hold for you in the place you are in today?


 
 MJ, this is a good question, must have missed it the first time. Since I still teach, on a commercial level to some degree.... I use them a lot for maintaining my commercial train of thought. (staying on the straight and narrow so to speak). As well, I do use them for some history lessons and some of the basic concept tools that are taught. I also use them as reference to the "commercial" art for analogies in teaching seminars to outside schools and camps (give the people something to relate to). The student, young and on their way to trying to better understand the Kenpo system does benefit from these writings, picking up some tools and concepts along the reading path. This also allows for greater inquisition from the student about such things as the "universal pattern" the "web of knowledge", "quadrant zone theories" and the like. 
 You see, It allows me to teach, and them to not just learn but... survey and formulate questions based on someone elses information so they are now gaining insights that I may not have shared with them had they not ventured out of their comfort zone. There are particulars neccessary for a student to understand that are not taught within the construct of the II. The student will not gain the knowledge of these things by simply reading and applying this information. Incidently their are enough "know it alls" in the world thanks but no thanks on the diff nick. 
  :idunno:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

> Originally posted by *Rainman* - No not based on anticipated action... In the particular direction of that statement- the conditioned response (one of the earlier stages of subconscious action) would or should be thought of and anticipation should be axed if and only if you are anticipating your opponent. We are proactive that is for sure but we need to make sure we are on cadence with our opponent. An anticipated move allows you to be set up.



Hmmm lets see if I understand you. I think you are trying to say that you can not have a spontaneous conditioned response if you are involved in anticipation. I do understand that anticipation does involve some thought which makes it a mindful act, and is not a product of a conditioned response from training the sds and sparring experience. But I am uncertain of how to play chess without the use of anticipation. If I anticipate a move from my opponent based on their actions and act on that I agree that it is possible that Ive been set up and can fall victim to their conditioning a response in me. 

Check Mate.:mp5: 


> Of course EP used visualization with the statement of *remedy anticipated moves*. What he left out in this particular circumstance (but was also stated earlier) is zone cancellation. He is talking about your chess game MJ. So anticipation in this circumstance is very large. Because you have already read about the quadrant zone theory you may base your response to an attack by playing zone defense. You may anticipate an attack by using the same response to all four zones with only a minor adjustment. You don't know what the attack is until the opponent shows you in some way or another. The conditioned response obtained with the 154 sd teks (along with your free fighting) will tell you where your opponent is going unless they have set you up- framed you- and/or are just have a better chess game.


 I have read the quadrant zone theory and mostly see this just a couple of questionsIve experienced this in sparring, my conditioned response will tell me where to go and amazingly does, but what about telegraphing? Trying to read an opponent can be dangerous, as you say if their chess game is better, because it can be a set-up, but when you learn to read your opponent and begin to see when they are unintentionally telegraphing their intentions (a shift in body weight, stance change, pulling back a punch etc.,) cant this lead to your anticipating their next move? Or do you see reacting to telegraphing as being part of your conditioned response as well? 


> So let me clean this up a little better... The anticipation is really in the execution of a flawless tek, meaning you have cancelled their zones and got the restraint, simulated kill, created distance to get away, or threw them in some sort of fashion and the threat has been removed. We in AK don't anticipate what the other guy does... If we were to anticipate something it would be reactions from hitting targets on the most appropriate angle with enough power to create more targets (or open those targets for a specific sequence) and cancel height width and depth...


 Ok I think I see where youre going hereSo I can anticipate the execution of a flawless technique, and the reactions it should create under perfect conditions, but we can not predict what our opponent will dook and I think this is what I was trying to say in the earlier post, but the word anticipation must have been a poor choice of words there.



> Thanks for giving me something to talk about MJ... You will make a fine Blackbelt.


 No really thank you for sharing, and you gave me a lot to think about today! Thanks for the compliment too. I hope youre right, because to me it is about giving back and what I care most about in terms of being a black belt is being a good teacher. Thats really why Im here bugging all you Kenpo dudes.:asian: 

__________________


----------



## mj-hi-yah

> Originally posted by *sumdumguy* - The student, young and on their way to trying to better understand the Kenpo system does benefit from these writings, picking up some tools and concepts along the reading path. This also allows for greater inquisition from the student about such things as the "universal pattern" the "web of knowledge", "quadrant zone theories" and the like. You see, It allows me to teach, and them to not just learn but... survey and formulate questions based on someone elses information so they are now gaining insights that I may not have shared with them had they not ventured out of their comfort zone. There are particulars neccessary for a student to understand that are not taught within the construct of the II. The student will not gain the knowledge of these things by simply reading and applying this information.


 Yes this is a great answer. You have lucky students. You have to start with some basis, then later on you're ready for freefalling.



> Incidently their are enough "know it alls" in the world thanks but no thanks on the diff nick. :idunno:


 Fair enough, saying sumdumbguy is much more fun anyway! :boing2:


----------



## mj-hi-yah

Doc,

A friend pointed you out to me in II.  :ultracool   In case anyone else is curious Volume 5 page 153 Ouch Doc..why'd you let that guy do that to you? Or Volume 4 page 28 - the tall handsome fellow  ...no trying Falling Falcon on you!

MJ


----------



## dubljay

Shamefull I know, but i haven't read any of them.  Partly because its very difficult to find them, and my instructor keeps his pretty well guarded... not left out too often because one was already torn up and had to be replaced.I plan on buying the full set when I get the money.

-Josh-


----------



## cdhall

I know they can be hard to find, but FYI, there is a set on eBay right now but I don't know anything about the seller. 

There is someone selling a lot of videos on eBay who I am very suspicious of though. Especially because I noticed that they have either begun a new seller account or have two accounts. I would not be surprised that they had an older account cancelled or some really ugly feedback.

Someone on here may know a reputable source for the books though, out of print as they may be right now. Good luck.


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## dubljay

Yes I have seen them on ebay, however my ebay experiences have been less than positive, however I have started to tap into resources that are very good at finding books, hopefully something will turn up.


-Josh-


----------



## cdhall

Good luck then. My eBay experiences have been mostly positive, even the one with the above person I am now more suspicious of.

Good to make your own, reliable network. That is my reccomendation. If I find any of the books for sale, I'll post here. I do know someone whose set is in almost pristine condition. I wonder if they don't want them anymore? I think you are right, they are very, very scarce now. I should have had one of mine signed. I think I had a chance once.

Ah well. They are good references for many reasons. Good luck again.


----------



## cdhall

This is supposedly a NEW copy of Book II. I don't know how, I'll ask the seller, but FYI.

Does anyone know if they are being reprinted somewhere? Officially? I am assuming this book is in "New Condition." I can post here what I find out.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16044&item=3682992434&rd=1


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## Ceicei

cdhall said:
			
		

> This is supposedly a NEW copy of Book II. I don't know how, I'll ask the seller, but FYI.
> 
> Does anyone know if they are being reprinted somewhere? Officially? I am assuming this book is in "New Condition." I can post here what I find out.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16044&item=3682992434&rd=1


If it's new, it probably means that it simply never was read. There have been people who bought in bulk years ago (usually instructors), but haven't been able to deplete their stock. I don't think there are going to be any reprints of these books made.  That means it will become harder and harder to find a complete set.

- Ceicei


----------



## Goldendragon7

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I don't think there are going to be any reprints of these books made.
> - Ceicei


  No, that is not correct.  The Ed Parker books are all available again.

  I have Infinite Insights 1, 2, 4, 5, and the Encyclopedia available.  (3 is on backorder for now should be in soon)


----------



## Mark Weiser

Your correct you can get all the books currently but #3 is out of stock currently at all the suppliers. Standing by with the credit card when they do.


----------



## Michael Billings

I also just bought 2 sets of the entire series at a Martial Arts Store (Lang Son) in Dallas.  They had almost all of Mr. Parker's published books.

 -Michael


----------



## Mark Weiser

Mike how much did it set ya back? I am checking around on prices?


----------



## Michael Billings

See my PM

 -Michael


----------



## Goldendragon7

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> I am checking around on prices?


You'll find the Infinite Insights Series for anywhere from $ 14.95 to $19.95 and  some at $24.95 - The Encyclopedia is going for around $26.95 to $35.95 at most  of the sources I have seen. If not let us know what and how much others are  charging for them. I would stay away from E-Bay unless you are desperate. 

  :asian:


----------



## Mark Weiser

Well I must have a different source my wholesale supplier sells them to me for $19.95 and being a reseller myself I would have to make the price somewhere in the area of $29.95 Retail at the lower end of retail mark-up jist to cover S/H and Taxes lol.


----------



## GAB

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Well I must have a different source my wholesale supplier sells them to me for $19.95 and being a reseller myself I would have to make the price somewhere in the area of $29.95 Retail at the lower end of retail mark-up jist to cover S/H and Taxes lol.


Hi Mark,

That is interesting your site SFCSTC shows the Infinite Insight books priced at $19.95.

Did you ever receive the Money Order I sent you? I have not received the books yet.

Regards, Gary


----------



## Seig

Gary,
Your above post was a bit inappropriate, in the future, please take things like this to PM or E-mail.
Thanks,
Mike


----------



## GAB

Seig said:
			
		

> Gary,
> Your above post was a bit inappropriate, in the future, please take things like this to PM or E-mail.
> Thanks,
> Mike


Hi Sieg,

After seeing it in print and brought to my attention. I will be more careful in the future. 

Happy Holiday

Regards, Gary


----------



## The Kai

However
It is an interesting thought, maybe they found a lower priced reseller??

Todd


----------



## Simon Curran

I just ordered a set (I hope...)

I am looking forward to getting stuck in.


----------



## scfgabe

I am just beginning my study of American Kenpo, so I would love to read and study everything that I can get my hands on.  Where would I get a hold of these and other works by Ed Parker?

Thanks,

Gabe


----------



## Gin-Gin

scfgabe said:
			
		

> I am just beginning my study of American Kenpo, so I would love to read and study everything that I can get my hands on.  Where would I get a hold of these and other works by Ed Parker? Thanks, Gabe


You might try *e-Bay * or *martialartsmart.com* (http://store.martialartsmart.net/kb.html).

:asian:


----------



## Kenpobuff

I got all five for X-mas this last year and have read them all. I'm not sure I will read them all every year but there is some good information in all volumes.  I found mine at AWMA.


----------



## GAB

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> I just ordered a set (I hope...)
> 
> I am looking forward to getting stuck in.


Hi Simon,

So how are the books?

Did you get a chance to read any of them yet?

Regards, Gary


----------



## Simon Curran

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Simon,
> 
> So how are the books?
> 
> Did you get a chance to read any of them yet?
> 
> Regards, Gary


Hi Gary, 
I am still waiting for them to be delivered, but I will let you know when I get them...
Simon


----------



## GAB

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Hi Gary,
> I am still waiting for them to be delivered, but I will let you know when I get them...
> Simon


Thanks Simon,

I am now awaiting word as to what happened to the MO, Had to find the receipt, LOL,  End of year cubby holes and all, in a jacket pocket../ DUH...

Take care, Gary


----------



## Simon Curran

GAB said:
			
		

> Thanks Simon,
> 
> I am now awaiting word as to what happened to the MO, Had to find the receipt, LOL, End of year cubby holes and all, in a jacket pocket../ DUH...
> 
> Take care, Gary


Just a quick update, I have checked up with the company, and 1,2,3 and 5 are underway (should be getting them thursday) but 4 is on back order...

Probably won't be online so much this weekend, got some reading to do...


----------



## GAB

Hi Simon,

Well that is good news for you. I ordered a few through Amazon.com, I have always had good luck with them. Should have done that in the first place.

Hi Mark,

I notice you have a new web site and done some major remodeling...
That back ground is familiar, wasn't that something Bob Hubbard did for America??? 

Did he do your new website??? Since our fall out with the books, I have been watching your post's...

I believe the staff ought to check you out, your stories are not quite the same over the past several months. 

Now you don't even post your address. You are involved in terrorist defense and do your lessons by distance learning???

I am contacting you this way since you won't answer my e-mail, shoot me a line will you?

Maybe you can clear up a few things, I have had a few discussions about your posts with others and they feel the same way I am inclined...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

GAB said:
			
		

> Hi Simon,
> 
> Well that is good news for you. I ordered a few through Amazon.com, I have always had good luck with them. Should have done that in the first place.
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> I notice you have a new web site and done some major remodeling...
> That back ground is familiar, wasn't that something Bob Hubbard did for America???
> 
> Did he do your new website??? Since our fall out with the books, I have been watching your post's...
> 
> I believe the staff ought to check you out, your stories are not quite the same over the past several months.
> 
> Now you don't even post your address. You are involved in terrorist defense and do your lessons by distance learning???
> 
> I am contacting you this way since you won't answer my e-mail, shoot me a line will you?
> 
> Maybe you can clear up a few things, I have had a few discussions about your posts with others and they feel the same way I am inclined...
> 
> Regards, Gary


Now, maybe it's just me. But each time I read one of your psots, I just keep thinking you're getting wierder and wierder, and are unable to take a clue. If you keep calling someone, and they don't take your calls, at what point would you actually start to gather that they might not wish to dialogue with you? If you ask the ladies what the difference is between an ex-boyfriend and a stalker is, you'll get a lot of input about the ability to grab a clue, and take the hint when "no" is the only answer you recieve.

Stalking someone publicly, instead of privately, is still representative of the same clueless pathology. I've noted several threads where people have stopped replying to your prompts, you attempt to goad them to respond, and still they do not. I'm thinking there must be some truth to you being and old boxer, cuz the argument for degredation of gray matter is certainly evident in your actions.

Dave


----------



## GAB

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Now, maybe it's just me. But each time I read one of your psots, I just keep thinking you're getting wierder and wierder, and are unable to take a clue. If you keep calling someone, and they don't take your calls, at what point would you actually start to gather that they might not wish to dialogue with you? If you ask the ladies what the difference is between an ex-boyfriend and a stalker is, you'll get a lot of input about the ability to grab a clue, and take the hint when "no" is the only answer you recieve.
> 
> Stalking someone publicly, instead of privately, is still representative of the same clueless pathology. I've noted several threads where people have stopped replying to your prompts, you attempt to goad them to respond, and still they do not. I'm thinking there must be some truth to you being and old boxer, cuz the argument for degredation of gray matter is certainly evident in your actions.
> 
> Dave


 
Hi Dave,

Well it looks like you are guillty of your own preaching...

Guess we just have different ways to go about it. 

Wait you just publicly stalked me and degraded me and you aren't even out the $115.00...

Interesting thought pattern you have...

Degraded, explain what you would call degrading? Regarding my request for him to answer me about the books...I am doing this to protect others from the same mistake...

Read the whole thread and send me an e-mail before I come down south so we can meet... or not...

Regards, Gary


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I've been out the money on other things before. IMHO, the best revenge is living well. I chalk it up to a lesson learned, and move to the next opportunity. 

Degradation = the drain bamage what comes from many hours trading punches to the head in boxing training.

I ain't aimin' to rag on you (though now that I re-read my own post, it does read a bit on the pissy side); I'm just saying...if you badger the other kids in the sandbox enough to annoy them, you can't be surprised when you find yourself playing in it alone.

Regards,

Dave

PS -- check you mail.


----------



## GAB

Hi Dave, I hear/read you...

Thanks for the e-mail, will be in touch...

Regards, Gary


----------



## GAB

Hi all,

I just finished Infinite Insights #2...Good read...Like Ed Parker said it is the basics...now to read his #3...

I really like the "Don't Quit" at the back of the book, by unknown author...
That is not basics that is "Higher level" stuff...

Glad I am semi retired, I never had the chance to read so much and not have to pass a test...LOL

Regards, Gary


----------



## kenpoworks

Gary,
that really made me LOL......" I never had the chance to read so much and not have to pass a test"..............you do realise that you are just another sad "KENPOIST" just like the rest of us, welcome to the club for the   bewildered !
Respect
Rich


----------



## GAB

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Gary,
> that really made me LOL......" I never had the chance to read so much and not have to pass a test"..............you do realise that you are just another sad "KENPOIST" just like the rest of us, welcome to the club for the bewildered !
> Respect
> Rich


Hi Rich, 
Thanks, and that is very true...

Regards, Gary


----------



## kenpoworks

No problem Gary,
BTW, I do likSuccess your signature...."Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal: It is the Courage to Continue that Counts. "Sir Winston Churchill" ... Bulldog sprit and all that.
Rich


----------



## GAB

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> No problem Gary,
> BTW, I do likSuccess your signature...."Success is not Final, Failure is not Fatal: It is the Courage to Continue that Counts. "Sir Winston Churchill" ... Bulldog sprit and all that.
> Rich


Rich,
Thanks, Sir Winston Churchill was a real indomitable person the World and England was very fortunate for him, at the right time and place...He sure took a lot of flack in his life time...Great man, one of my favorites...

Regards, Gary


----------



## kenpoworks

GAB said:
			
		

> Sir Winston Churchill was a real indomitable person the World and England was very fortunate for him, at the right time and place...He sure took a lot of flack in his life time...Great man, one of my favorites...
> 
> Yes, he did take a lot of flak, but he was the right person ,with the right attitude, in the right place at the right time.
> 
> "when you are going through hell, just keep going" SWC


----------



## TSUNAMIKENPO

In infinite insights vol. 5 SGM Parker lists 154 techniques as the MINIMUM STANDARD. In one of Lee Wedlakes books he says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know these or how I can find them? TSUNAMI KENPO


----------



## hammer

TSUNAMIKENPO said:
			
		

> In infinite insights vol. 5 SGM Parker lists 154 techniques as the MINIMUM STANDARD. In one of Lee Wedlakes books he says there are over 200 self defence techniques. Any one know these or how I can find them? TSUNAMI KENPO


Im not certian, but have you considered the freestyle techniques,the extensions, form seven, like five storms, gathering storms, reversing storms, repeating storms ect. ?? and perhaps the knife techniques of form 8.

And I'm sure there is more,

That's the beauty of kenpo. (But wait there's more! LOL)

Just my thoughts
Cheers


----------



## KenpoEMT

> That's the beauty of kenpo. (But wait there's more! LOL)


 MORE??!!?!?!???!!??!   no one told ME about this! More...as in "Lots, Lots more?"
As in _near infinite...nigh limitless...somewhat boundless....never-run-out-of-possibilities....._
_less-less..._more?

right on.  Sounds like the Kenpo that I signed up for :supcool:


----------



## DocWard

I own all five, but I've only read up through the third book. It was a very difficult read for me. I haven't looked at them for ages. I suppose it is time for me to pull them out and see if they can help me get motivated to resume my training.


----------



## JohnPeace

Doc's comments are right on - Mr. Parker presented the books using his own material and style, they are what they are.  If anyone can improve on the concepts and message they should do likewise in their own name, not change Mr. Parker's work.


----------



## silvestre

hello

it's a great book

best regards


----------



## OzPaul

I've just finished reading all 5 books for the first time.  As i am new to the art i did not totally understand everything but with time and a few more reads i am sure i will get there.


----------



## teej

Don't get discouraged. Every time I read mine I find something new in each volume.


----------



## OzPaul

Yeah, every time i re-read a part of the book it sinks in more.


----------



## Yondanchris

Still need to get me a set, I have checked them out from the library a few times. Between my theology books, school books, and martial arts book lists I will be reading for a lifetime or two...

Chris


----------

