# genbukan



## Enson (Jun 23, 2004)

i have a very old magazine from the u.k. that has genbukan highlighted. the grandmaster (hatsumi's cousin) says that his school and hatsumi's are the only real ninjutsu schools. so what is this 3rd school and who started that?
also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?
hope i didn't offend anyone but just started thinking about that, and thought i would go to the place where all the ninjutsu historians are.


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## Cryozombie (Jun 23, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> i have a very old magazine from the u.k. that has genbukan highlighted. the grandmaster (hatsumi's cousin) says that his school and hatsumi's are the only real ninjutsu schools. so what is this 3rd school and who started that?
> also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?
> hope i didn't offend anyone but just started thinking about that, and thought i would go to the place where all the ninjutsu historians are.



Jinenkan is fairly new... from the mid 90's.  It was founded by a guy named Fumio Manaka... formerly of the bujinkan.  If you mag is older that could be why it doesn't list the Jinenkan... 

Also... Ninja/Samurai... two sides of the same coin... many of the Samurai schools had Ninpo in them. The 'kan schools contain the teachings of both.


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## FudoshinDojo (Jun 23, 2004)

also i see the grandmaster now starring in videos for panther productions coming off as samurai. what is he really? ninja or samurai?>>

There is not a clear distincton such as cowboys and Indians, Ninja and Samurai, many Ninja were samurai as well. Tanemura sensei is a Grandmaster of different samurai jujutsu schools such as Hontai Yoshin Takagi ryu jujutsu, Asayama Ichiden ryu taijutsu, etc, he also is a menkyo kaiden in Togakure ryu Ninjutsu. There are two organizations, Genbukan Ninpo Bugei and Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei. 

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


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## Dale Seago (Jun 24, 2004)

Yeah. What technopunk and Brian said.


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## Enson (Jun 24, 2004)

from what i've read the ninja were people that would not live under samurai reign. they were people that chose to live in the mountains to escape the heiarchy of the samurai. so i always thought they couldn't be samurai. maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.


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## George Kohler (Jun 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.



I believe _NINJA: THE TRUE STORY OF JAPAN'S SECRET WARRIOR CULT_ by Stephen Turnbull has some more information about this.


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## FudoshinDojo (Jun 24, 2004)

from what i've read the ninja were people that would not live under samurai reign. they were people that chose to live in the mountains to escape the heiarchy of the samurai. so i always thought they couldn't be samurai. maybe i'm just confused. maybe someone can point me to some books so i could read more about this.



Enson,
I remember this was a popular opinion that was promoted by authors back in the 80's however probably more drama than fact, me personally I don't like to get in to what Ninja are or are not, I train in Ninpo Bugei as a martial artist. To answer your original question as an example many of the Koga families were proud to be samurai but were not inhibited by samurai ethics and felt free to use Ninjutsu when necessary, also a very famous Iga Ninja, Hattori Hanzo was often referred to as a bushi. Of course as far as books go I reccomend my teacher's (Tanemura sensei), Ninpo Secrets book and Ninpo Bugei Fundamental Taijutsu, beyond those, anything written by Hatsumi sensei is factual.

sincerely,
Brian Hodges
GWNBF/KJJR
Fudoshin Dojo-Cho


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## Enson (Jun 24, 2004)

"Hattori Hanzo"
isn't that the same guy/character from kill bill? don't be offended if i'm wrong. just thought i heard that name before.


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## Jay Bell (Jun 24, 2004)

*chuckle* Yeah...he was the sword maker in the flick.  They got the name from history.


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## Shogun (Jun 24, 2004)

I was viewing one of my SKH Koppojutsu vids, and he mentioned 3 or 4 different schools of Kukishinden, and other Shinobi and Samurai arts. He didnt list specific names, but he was talking about how natural it is for different lineages (in this case, 4) from the same teacher. He mentioned Takamatsu's teacher, and then mentione how several other lineages spawned from him. Does anyone know of any accurate lineages? or are they all ofshoots of the same school (bujinkan).


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## Dale Seago (Jun 24, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> Does anyone know of any accurate lineages? or are they all ofshoots of the same school (bujinkan).



There are several martial lineages associated with the Kuki family or derived/descended from their family arts. From a list of schools and their soke which Jay Bell previously posted elsewhere: 



> Kukishinden Ryû Happo Bikenjutsu
> 
> 1. Izumo Kanja Yo****eru
> 2. Izumo Koshiro Terunobu
> ...


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## Shogun (Jun 24, 2004)

are these lineages (besides Hatsumi's) around today?

Regards,
kyle


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## Dale Seago (Jun 24, 2004)

Shogun said:
			
		

> are these lineages (besides Hatsumi's) around today?
> 
> Regards,
> kyle



Yes indeedy.


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## Cruentus (Jun 24, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Yes indeedy.



Sorry Dale...now I am highly confused again.

I thought that all roads led to Bujinkan/Hatsumi in one way or the other. Other Kan's and indies that are legit somehow trace themselves to Hatsumi, I thought.

So...are there other families that can claim ninjitsu that are not connected with Buj? If so, out of that list, how many are left?

Thanks,

Paul


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## Cruentus (Jun 24, 2004)

Sorry again for the confusion...

I am sure to you guys who do the art, this issue has been kicked to death. But to me, someone who does not study ninjitsu but likes to learn the history and learn about all martial arts, it can be very confusing.

I guess I should start with some basic japanese terms as well.

Whats a Kan?

Whats a Ryu?

How does a "Family" relate to the Kan's and Ryu's (and what's that called)?

If all roads don't lead to Hatsumi, then how do you legitimize or "prove" that a school came from another lineage outside of Hatsumi?

I had it all set in my head in a very simple fashion from other conversations...basically, if it traces to Hatsumi and they can prove it, whether Bujinkan or not, there is some legitimacy to it. If not, then it is not legitimate. Is my simplistic method of understanding incorrect? I'll be happy if the answer is that I am incorrect, as I am just trying to gain understanding.

Thanks again,

Jubei


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## Dale Seago (Jun 24, 2004)

Eek.

Yes, it can all seem a bit complicated, but it isn't necessarily. There were several Kuki-related branches in existence before Takamatsu sensei's time, and none of them are "ninjutsu" _per se_. . .though some contain elements of what people today would think of as ninjutsu such as strategies/methods for fortress penetration, disguise, etc. As has been mentioned before, a lot of samurai ryuha contained some aspects of ninjutsu; it just wasn't "what they were all about".

The only three purely-ninja systems in The Booj are Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu. . .which is not to say, however, that they are the only ones that historically were connected with ninja. According to our tradition, two others -- Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu -- were originally Chinese temple fighting systems which were brought into Japan and went through generations of adaptation to local conditions before being picked up by Momochi Sandayu, a historically famous ninja leader, in the 1540s and becoming "ninja fighting systems".

Other than the three purely ninja-associated systems I mentioned, I'm not aware of any schools calling themselves ninjutsu/ninjitsu which have been able to prove a connection with any actual old martial ryu in Japan, ninja or otherwise.



> I guess I should start with some basic japanese terms as well.
> 
> Whats a Kan?
> 
> ...



I'll let Don address that one, as he can give both a better linguistic overview and also perhaps some of the historical, social, military, and political implications.

You might find this biographical sketch and timeline of Takamatsu sensei's life interesting: http://www.ninpo.be/Takamatsu%20(eng).htm


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## Shogun (Jun 25, 2004)

Dale and Don.........you guys are the Man/Men!!!!


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## George Kohler (Jun 28, 2004)

Dale Seago said:
			
		

> Tenshin Hyoho Kukishin Ryû Bôjutsu
> 
> 1. Inaba Kaja Yoshi-tame
> 2. Kuki Yasushimaru Kurando
> ...



Hi Dale,

I know you are quoting someone else, but this lineage is not quite correct. The first person, Inaba is not the founder and should not be added. Tanemura sensei is the 18th generation.

Also, some of the spellings of the names are not correct. So anyone wishing to use these names for their references should reconsider.


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## heretic888 (Jun 29, 2004)

*The only three purely-ninja systems in The Booj are Togakure ryu, Gyokushin ryu, and Kumogakure ryu. . .which is not to say, however, that they are the only ones that historically were connected with ninja. According to our tradition, two others -- Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu -- were originally Chinese temple fighting systems which were brought into Japan and went through generations of adaptation to local conditions before being picked up by Momochi Sandayu, a historically famous ninja leader, in the 1540s and becoming "ninja fighting systems".*

Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dale, but don't both of those schools (Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu) supposedly descend from Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu??

If not, my mistake.  :asian:


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## Dale Seago (Jun 29, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> *Please correct me if I'm wrong, Dale, but don't both of those schools (Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu) supposedly descend from Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu??
> 
> If not, my mistake.  :asian:*


*

With Gyokko ryu there is possibly a connection: Its first official Soke was Tozawa Hakuunsai, which could argue for a potential connection with Hakuun ryu but doesn't establish anything conclusive.

I'm not aware of any Hakuun/Koto connection. . .but then again, history's not really my thing.*


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## heretic888 (Jun 30, 2004)

> With Gyokko ryu there is possibly a connection: Its first official Soke was Tozawa Hakuunsai, which could argue for a potential connection with Hakuun ryu but doesn't establish anything conclusive.



Well, since this is a thread about the Genbukan, I did find the following article by Shoto Tanemura:

http://users.skynet.be/genbukan/iga.htm

In it, he states (among other things) that: "_Iga Hakuun Ryu Ninpo was founded in Jinpyo Heiji Era (1151-1160) by Hakuun Doshi who taught Kimon Heibei and Tozawa Hakuunsai (Tozawa Kaneuji who was retainer of Minamoto Tameto). Heibei and Hakuunsai were taught by Hachiryu Nyudo who was expert of Kosshijutsu._"

Also, as a side note... in the last chapter of _Essence of Ninjutsu: The Nine Traditions_, Hatsumi-soke lists Tozawa Hakuunsai as one of the "grandmasters" of "Iga ryu Ninjutsu" --- along Hakuun Doshi, Togakure Daisuke, Momochi Sandayu, and others.

Don't know if any of this establishes any kind of connection, but... *shrugs* 



> I'm not aware of any Hakuun/Koto connection. . .but then again, history's not really my thing.



Well, in the article I linked above, Tanemura claims that: "_Techniques found in Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu, Kasumi Ryu rely greatly on those from Hakuun Ryu Ninpo._"

So, again.... *shrugs*

Just my thoughts. Laterz.  :asian:


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