# Sparring:  Contact or Not?  Where?



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

I was surprised to learn that Soo Bahk Do students do not make contact when sparring (unless I misunderstood the post).  Do you mean you counter one another with zero contact????

In Tang Soo Do, we do have contact.  We are allowed to strike from the top of the head to the belt. We are also allowed kidney punches and kicks. Kicks are allowed to the head.  Straight punches are allowed to the head.  Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control.  Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.

There was a knockout at a recent Pennsylvania tournament but I don't know the details.  Knockouts are rare, I think.

I'm under the impression that black belts are allowed to hit in the face at tournaments.  Not sure.  That may also depend on the center judge.  I see that they are hitting in the face during class.

I was hit in the face last night by my green belt partner who is also 4th gup.  No black eye yet.  She was going for my head.  Just glad it wasn't my nose.  And I kicked her below the belt (how embarrassing).  I know that didn't feel too good.  This speaks to our lack of control.  However, we gain more control the more we spar.

So, I'm curious if you are allowed face punches, kidney punches, whatever.  And if you have no contact, how are you awarded points?


----------



## MBuzzy (Sep 3, 2008)

First of all, I would be careful about saying "In Tang Soo Do we have...." with the huge amount of schools and organizations, you're only speaking for a very small minority.  As I stated in my post here, I'm in the SBD Federation.  We do have a no-contact rule, although contact happens.  The intent of the rule is to stop excessive contact and to protect both the students and the studio owners from liability suits.  When it comes right down to it, it has very little to do with how tough you are and how much contact you allow....it is a legal thing.

Now we do spar with contact, the strictness with which the rule is applied is up to the judge or the studio owner.  Again, we emphasize CONTROL.  Being able to choose if you hit your opponent or not is very important....also how hard you will hit them.  Control also plays into how effectively you can actually hit your target.

One more note....that I just have to say....Lynne, I've read your posts about the sparring at your school before and honestly, I have to say.  It really scares me that there are schools like your out there.  Who encourage hits to the face, "pummelling," and other tactics like that in their sparring.  Sparring is a martial arts excercise just like any other.  The point is to _prolong life_ and to _tune your body_, not to hurt yourself.  The days of punching tree bark for 4 hours are long gone.  We are much smarter than that.  Throwing a full speed punch on target and _not_ hitting is far more difficult than actually connecting; people really dont' seem to think about that.  If your school is encouraging people to hurt each other, please please....use your judgment, if it doesn't smell right, it isn't.  Not only is that dangerous to you and your daughter, but it is a liability suit waiting to happen.....

I'm not trying to put down your school....just some things to think about.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

MBuzzy said:


> First of all, I would be careful about saying "In Tang Soo Do we have...." with the huge amount of schools and organizations, you're only speaking for a very small minority. As I stated in my post here, I'm in the SBD Federation. We do have a no-contact rule, although contact happens. The intent of the rule is to stop excessive contact and to protect both the students and the studio owners from liability suits. When it comes right down to it, it has very little to do with how tough you are and how much contact you allow....it is a legal thing.
> 
> Now we do spar with contact, the strictness with which the rule is applied is up to the judge or the studio owner. Again, we emphasize CONTROL. Being able to choose if you hit your opponent or not is very important....also how hard you will hit them. Control also plays into how effectively you can actually hit your target.
> 
> ...


 
I'm on the fence.  I had been trying to do light but accurate contact because I believed all you had to do was make contact. I wasn't out to beat the heck out of anyone.  On the otherhand, if we hit lightly that's considered pulling punches.  Then from a self-defense point, the instructor's want us to be able to defend ourselves, so they want our sparring to be a little more reality-based.  

I know our school wouldn't allow orange belts to hit in the face and backfists are moderated if caught at that level.  I'm not so sure about green belts and up striking the face.  Not 100% on that at all.  We are definitely allowed the kicks to the head and backfists and punches to the head during class.  At my level, we generally don't strike in the face.  If I get hit in the face at a tournament and it's allowed, I will be returning face punches.

Once I was sparring a black belt and he backfisted my nose, but stopped short.  I don't know if that would be allowed in a tournament.  People do get broken noses in tournaments.  That is not rare. I suspect from wayward punches though.  Anytime blood is drawn that is an immediate disqualification for the one who drew the blood.

Now, the instructors are constantly after us regards control.  They'll reprimand a student if the student goes in brawling and flailing.  And they want to see good technique.  A roundhouse is a roundhouse, not a shoe kick.  Often, I hear them say, "Control!"

I was very surprised about the pummeling.  My daughter said, "Oh, they teach you to pummel."  The idea is to make sure you land some solid hits.  I think it may be to intimidate your opponent to some degree, too.  That's just what I think, lol.

I got your point about mentioning Tang Soo Do as inclusive of all TSD organizations as rules differ from organization to organization.  Ours is a large organization.  If I remember correctly, last year our tournament was open to SBD/TKD, etc., so our rules might have been a surprise for some.

(At a recent tournament one of the masters allowed throat strikes.  That's surprising to me.)


----------



## claireg31 (Sep 3, 2008)

hi Lynne

in class we have light/controlled contact, however, because we have all trained together for so long, we quite often get carried away and it becomes exesive contact from time to time (never tears though).

At competitions we are allowed contact, but as in class, it shouldn't be too exesive. The point scoring and techniques can vary from club to club. Some disallow jumping back fists to the head, others don't allow jump-spinning kicks to the head.

In all, i reckon its pretty had to not have contact, i have on one occassion had a warning for exessive contact, to me it wasn't exessive just what i was used to in class.

Control is something that we are taught from the very beginning and i believe it is something that is very important to the art we practise, the kids do tag sparring and that even when they get their sparring kits, it takes time and makes it fairer too.

However, having said all that, if someone is overly aggressive in a match with me, its like a red rag to a bull and i fight like i would with one of the guys in class...


----------



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

claireg31 said:


> hi Lynne
> 
> in class we have light/controlled contact, however, because we have all trained together for so long, we quite often get carried away and it becomes exesive contact from time to time (never tears though).
> 
> ...


 So far, I've only been to one tournament.  I was an orange belt then.  I have my second tournament in October so it shall be interesting to see how things go.

I do remember getting points without contact last year.  I did an inside/outside kick that I know did not strike my partner.  I did go over her shoulder and down the front.  I was awarded a point.  I figured that was because we were orange belts and "trying."

Now, I'm very curious to see if any of us will get warnings for excessive contact.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 3, 2008)

Regards liability, we have to wear sparring gear during class sparring and tournaments.  Required:  helmet, gloves, and shoes.  In addition, I wear shin guards and a mouthguard.

At last year's tournament, the judges stood over us while we were putting on our sparring gear.  Hmmm.  I suppose they were checking to make sure we were using approved gear.

Gee, I just had to duct tape my sparring shoes.  Do you think they'll fly this year?  Duct tape will hold better than the junky foam and plastic.


----------



## claireg31 (Sep 3, 2008)

i just don't think sparring gear last very long!!

duct tape might be better, more strength in it..

in class we have all our sparring gear on, not often i wear my gum shield in class, but then its choice and we all know our limits, ok, so i am aware that a stray fist can connect and might do.

i hate the thought of being hit hard in a competition and i hate the thought i might hit someone hard too, i guess if your lucky enough to wathc the first round then you can gage how hard/soft you are allowed to contact, if that makes any snese whatsover!!


----------



## thesandman (Sep 3, 2008)

It is important to understand a few things.  One, that sparring is a game.  It's a training tool to be sure, but it is a game.  Like any game, there are many many variations to be found.  The most common of which in a tournament setting is stop sparring.  That is, the fight stops after each point.  Two, sparring is not equated to a real fight.  There is no such thing as "realistic" sparring.  Being a good sparrer does not make you a good fighter.  Sparring will teach you many of the things that will help you be a good fighter, but not all of them by any means.

In general, under black belt ranks are "light contact", not allowing face or kidney strikes.  Additionally, contact is not required to earn a point.  Scoring a point without contact is judged by if the strike was fully extended or not.  If the strike was pulled for control, but clearly COULD have struck if desired, the point is awarded.  If the strike fully extends, but falls just short, it is not awarded.

Black belt ranks are "firm contact" but not excessive, allowing face and kidney strikes.  The control comes into play by being able to judge the force required to stagger your opponent without injuring them.

Blind techniques (such as spinning backfists) are rarely allowed at all.  Any technique that does not have a direct line of sight between the attacker and the point of contact is deemed to not be adequately controlled.  This makes sense as it's pretty hard to control a strike you can't see against a moving target.  Now, spinning techniques such as this can be done legally IF the head finishes the turn before the strike lands.  This is risky though, because you're trusting that the judges are skilled enough to know the difference and keen of sight to see it.

Some of the things I've read in these threads concerns me.  We must be careful about judging training methods, especially when it comes to "realism".  It's a tricky idea for many reasons.  I'm willing to bet that NONE of us are crazy and irresponsible enough to have ANY truly realistic fighting training in our classes.  To do so would require an actual fight.  The ONLY way to train realistically is to practice the real thing.  If you're training "realistically" and do not end up in the hospital, you were training with someone who was no match for you and you should be ashamed of taking advantage of their weakness.  

With this idea as a given, that true realism in class is just too dangerous, everything becomes an issue of degree.

If one class has a rule of "no contact" for their sparring, that's just a degree of the rules to prevent injury (and legal liability).  That is no worse or better than a class that chooses to require strong contact.

Sparring is a GAME, the rules will always exist to prevent severe injury.  Some classes will be okay with a bloody nose or a black eye, others won't.  Each may have compelling reasons for their choice.  Even the UFC, the current pox on the martial arts, has rules.  Things you are not allowed to do.  Once you introduce things you are not allowed to do, it is no longer "realistic".

As for my classes, we tend to follow the tournament structure pretty well.   If something was not hard enough to be deemed a point in a tournament, we won't count it.  On the other hand, if something was so strong as to risk a warning for excessive force, we will point that out.


----------



## JoelD (Sep 3, 2008)

Excellent post, sir. Nicely put.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 3, 2008)

This is the first time I've ever heard of Backfists being not allowed at a tournament. I'm curious as to why people think they are dangerous.

A spinning blind backfist (panic chop) on the other hand is obviously dangerous. Backfists are one of the first techniques we teach our students.

At Black, we allow moderate body contact, but no face contact. In class, we vary the levels of the contact based on the goal of the drill.


----------



## cdunn (Sep 3, 2008)

In class, we offically spar no contact. However, when it's two adult senior (red / black) belts, you bring what ever your senior wants you to bring. Often, this is light-to-moderate contact. Rarely, this is 'Please don't make me bleed on sabomnim's floor'.

The only real benefit you get from the harder sessions is that getting hit slowly dissociates the mental shock from the physical shock of getting hit. Being able to assess how much you actually got hurt from getting hit, and going on with the fight is a skill that has to be developed, otherwise, the surprise of it can shut down your ability to 'return fire', as it were.


----------



## Kacey (Sep 3, 2008)

A couple of things:

First, I do Ch'ang H'on TKD, not TSD, so the rules are different - our tournament rules are moderate contact to the body, light contact to the head; legal target zones are anywhere on the front of the torso above the belt (from the floating ribs forward, belt to base of throat), and anywhere on the head.  There are no legal targets on the neck, behind the floating ribs, or below the back.  This, remember, is _tournament_ sparring - class rules often vary.

We require hand and foot pads, mouthguards, and open-face headgear (red belt and up - sweeps are legal at red belt, and the chief danger is hitting the floor with your head after you've been swept), and cups for male competitors.  We allow, but do not require, shin and arm guards.  All pads are dipped foam.  We do not allow head gear that covers the face (cage, plastic, etc.), although those who want to can wear sports goggles.  We do not allow leather pads, or tape of any type, as either can easily cut your opponent - and since the face is the only area open, it's the area most likely to get cut.  The best way to fix cracks in dipped foam pads is to use superglue - it won't cut like tape, and holds really well.


----------



## foggymorning162 (Sep 3, 2008)

This is a topic I've been thinking about a lot lately. Our federation does not allow head contact (this is a fairly new rule we used to allow light contact at the black belt level) we have a class that is sparring only the intstructor does allow head contact in class I wouldn't mind but my son sees a neurologist for migraines and some of the teens think light contact means your opponants head should only rock back a foot and a half instead of three feet. I've spoken to the instructor if it doesn't stop I will go to our head instructor last resort I will stop bringing my son to that class but I don't want to do that because he truely enjoys sparring. We do sometimes make head contact in the adult class but it is usually done in a friendly manner(just a reminder to watch your head). I think  thesandman correctly explained scoring without contact this is how we score head contact and also no contact sparring if you are not wearing gear. I would love to say more on this subject but my son needs homework help so I'm signing off


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

I guess I can modify by saying we have moderate contact in class but some people go harder, especially black belt men with black belt men.  You'd better watch out and be ready to move the heck out of the way because they are going to be staggerng and flying out of the ring.  Now that is fact.  Often same with the red belts.  I keep an eye on them when I'm lined up waiting for my turn to spar, or sparring for that matter (they sometimes come tumbling into my ring).  Ok, tournaments _are _rough.  I think most judges let red belts and black belts go hard in our partiipating organizations.

Kicks to the juniors' heads by black belts are usually controlled and stop short of more than light contact.  Now, I wouldn't trust an orange belt or a green belt with head kicks.  I don't think we have enough control yet.  I know orange belts do not.  But we are allowed to kick at the head in most tournaments.  When an orange belt tries a backfist to the head you are going to get hit in the face instead, lol.  To learn control though, we need to practice with contact.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> This is the first time I've ever heard of Backfists being not allowed at a tournament. I'm curious as to why people think they are dangerous.
> 
> A spinning blind backfist (panic chop) on the other hand is obviously dangerous. Backfists are one of the first techniques we teach our students.
> 
> At Black, we allow moderate body contact, but no face contact. In class, we vary the levels of the contact based on the goal of the drill.


 I can only tell you what I've been told, "It's easy to knock someone out with a backfist."  And my instructors are talking about a backfist to the head while facing your opponent.  We practice backfist-reverse punches often in class.  It's rather automatic and I do it in sparring a lot.  I'm thinking I need to stop practicing that combination or I'll do it in competition.  We were warned over and over last year to not even do a backfist as a set-up.  This year, they are already warning us and the tournament is in October.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Thanks for the super glue idea, Kacey.  I really didn't want to spend another $20 + shipping right now.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 4, 2008)

Hi Lynne,

At my school, for the children, I am about them using control. No face punches. I don't want to give them a reason to be scared of something very assential to learning martial arts--sparring. For my adults I ask they also use control. If both adult students agree they can "bang" on each other, I don't let them use straight punches to the face durring sparring. However, I do teach them how to straight punch. I tell my students that, in my opinion,  it does'nt take skill to hit hard-I can teach that in a few lessons. But it does take skill to spar fast and accurate and barely touch your opponet. afterall most of my students have to go to work the next day. I beleive highly trained martial artists know "control" is like flipping a switch. They can hit with authority when need be--its a mindset. Do accidents happen...unfortunatley yes! In the last couple of months two of my black belts  (one from each school) have broken a couple of noses with round house kicks.


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Hi Lynne,
> 
> At my school, for the children, I am about them using control. No face punches. I don't want to give them a reason to be scared of something very assential to learning martial arts--sparring. For my adults I ask they also use control. If both adult students agree they can "bang" on each other, I don't let them use straight punches to the face durring sparring. However, I do teach them how to straight punch. I tell my students that, in my opinion, it does'nt take skill to hit hard-I can teach that in a few lessons. But it does take skill to spar fast and accurate and barely touch your opponet. afterall most of my students have to go to work the next day. I beleive highly trained martial artists know "control" is like flipping a switch. They can hit with authority when need be--its a mindset. Do accidents happen...unfortunatley yes! In the last couple of months two of my black belts (one from each school) have broken a couple of noses with round house kicks.


 I agree that it takes skill to be fast and accurate, barely touching your opponent.

My instructors consider it pulling punches and kicks if we do not make moderate contact.  Senior males tell me to hit harder, "You can hit harder than that!  Come on, hit me hard!"  Maybe they are trying to teach me to not be afraid to hit and to be more agressive as well as more accurate.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I agree that it takes skill to be fast and accurate, barely touching your opponent.
> 
> My instructors consider it pulling punches and kicks if we do not make moderate contact. Senior males tell me to hit harder, "You can hit harder than that! Come on, hit me hard!" Maybe they are trying to teach me to not be afraid to hit and to be more agressive as well as more accurate.


 
I would say you are right


----------



## Empty Hands (Sep 4, 2008)

Lynne said:


> I can only tell you what I've been told, "It's easy to knock someone out with a backfist."



Not in my experience.  I've taken full force backfists from some of our more _enthusiastic _students and it never came close to knocking me out.  Didn't even hurt too bad.  Punches on the other hand hurt a lot more, and cause knockouts more readily - aim for the chin!


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 4, 2008)

Empty Hands said:


> Not in my experience.  I've taken full force backfists from some of our more _enthusiastic _students and it never came close to knocking me out.  Didn't even hurt too bad.  Punches on the other hand hurt a lot more, and cause knockouts more readily - aim for the chin!



I would tend to agree, which is why I am suprised by this trainof thought. A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.


----------



## foggymorning162 (Sep 4, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.


 The temple scares me I read an articles about temple shots killing people I don't remember which mag it was in now, one our instructor gets.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 4, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> I would tend to agree, which is why I am suprised by this trainof thought. A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.


 
I agree! I've been hit in the temple full force by my big brother when we were in our early twenties. It dropped me like a rock. A big ol flash of light.....if ya know what I mean? :xtrmshock


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

Oh...we backfist to the temple (Kap Kwan Kyon Kyuk) my friends - that's the target.  Backfist to the temple, reverse punch to the solar plexus is a routine training drill.

This is why I say it's not hard for us lower belts to strike the face instead of the temple.  It takes a lot of control and accuracy to strike the temple at our level.

In fact, I haven't backfisted to any other part of the body than the temple.  Now, in the drills we make no contact.  In  sparring, we do.  However, a good backfist without contact is acceptable if followed by a reverse punch that makes contact (in sparring).


----------



## foggymorning162 (Sep 4, 2008)

In tournament sparring we only allow a back fist if it's not blind which makes a spinning backfist very hard to pull off because even if you look first will the judges see that? so we discourage spinning backfists as I said before though no contact either way.


----------



## JWLuiza (Sep 4, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> I agree! I've been hit in the temple full force by my big brother when we were in our early twenties. It dropped me like a rock. A big ol flash of light.....if ya know what I mean? :xtrmshock



And with the big ol cushy safety hand gear, the chance of a knockout to the temple is nullified.


----------



## foggymorning162 (Sep 4, 2008)

I found this it is boxing but I think it is still relavant. Notice how many deaths are do to head injuries.
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm


----------



## Lynne (Sep 4, 2008)

No more backfists to the temple from me.  I'll just do the set-up in sparring class.


----------



## Gizmo (Sep 5, 2008)

Our TSD friends in Poland often invite us to their tournaments so we also have a chance to see how their sparring looks like. They use two types of sparring. Point-stop is similar to other styles. Basically all boxing techniques and the backfist strike are allowed, plus kicks above the belt. Contact is allowed to the body and to the head, including the face. Control is required. Continuous contact in Polish TSD - the same techniques allowed as in point-stop plus low-kicks to the thighs, no sweeps. Solid contact is allowed in this division and kids are not allowed to participate. On the last Open Polish Championships there was a fair share of TKD, Kickboxing & Karate people taking part. Some nice knockdowns...


----------



## e ship yuk (Sep 7, 2008)

Our previous tournament org was light-to-medium contact.  Target areas were the front of the torso from the seam on the shoulder to the belt, the kidneys, groin, sides of the neck, anywhere there was foam on the headgear; face contact was introduced at the "advanced" level, i.e. 3rd gup+ as light contact, and raised to medium contact for dans.  Sweeps of the front foot were allowed, but only to the back of the foot; you had to strike the pad on his foot with the pad on your foot, and you were expected to control your opponent's fall if he actually went to the ground.  Three seconds were allotted to strike a downed opponent before the match would be stopped.  Grabs were also allowed, but had to be used to benefit a strike - no grappling.

Control was always expected - any technique passing through the center line of the opponent was considered excessive contact and drew a warning.Any reddening of the skin the same.  "Rocking the head" drew an immediate penalty.  Drawing of blood was immediate disqualification.

In-class sparring was much the same, without stopping for points, and we as a school allowed a broader range of techniques - knees, some grappling.


----------



## Kwanjang (Sep 7, 2008)

JWLuiza said:


> And with the big ol cushy safety hand gear, the chance of a knockout to the temple is nullified.


 
Unfortunatley, this was a bare knuckle fight between a big brother and a little brother. I backed him up pretty good, then the temple shot! He Kicked My........


----------



## tko4u (Sep 20, 2008)

Kwanjang said:


> Unfortunatley, this was a bare knuckle fight between a big brother and a little brother. I backed him up pretty good, then the temple shot! He Kicked My........


 
how long ago was that?


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil (Oct 9, 2008)

Lynne said:


> Straight punches are allowed to the head. Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control. Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.quote]
> 
> Lynne,
> I have trained and sparred with practitioners of more systems then you can name over the past 37 years. One of the issues in competitions for the longest time was that Tae Kwon Do judges would not award points for backfists because they felt that they were not viable weapons and couldn't effectively do any real damage.
> ...


----------



## Lynne (Oct 10, 2008)

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Lynne said:
> 
> 
> > Straight punches are allowed to the head. Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control. Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.quote]
> ...


----------



## Lynne (Oct 15, 2008)

We had several men disqualified in our tournament this past weekend.  They drew blood but these situations were accidents. In one case, one person was doing an axe kick and the opponent turned into it with his nose.  Another had to concede his sparring match because of a powerful kick to his ribs.  I heard there was a knockout - I don't know if that's true or if anyone was disqualified.  I don't think you would be disqualified for a knockout.  It doesn't take excessive force to deliver a "knockout" kick or punch.

I was watching the green belt men spar because we were sharing the same ring.  One poor fellow got kicked in the groin twice in the same match.  The first time he was down for about 3 minutes.  I will say he wears his belt awfully low, not too far from the sensitive area.  I think that's a bad idea.  Your opponent may not be controlled, he might be wild.  He might aim for the kidneys but could easily hit below.

I think all of these situations are normal for TSD matches.


----------

