# Federation Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul



## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

One of the first things my teacher did when he pulled our dojang from the Soo Bahk Do federation was dump the old and dead Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul patterns.  He replaced these with the actual Bunkai/Oyo from our forms, which in my opinion, are much deeper and much more effective then anything the federation was teaching with Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul.  

I liked the development of power principles that practicing the federation patterns helped to develop.  Yet, the techniques themselves and the stylized, methodical, slow, and mechanical response to stylized, methodical, slow, and mechanical attacks seemed to be a "dangerous" thing to practice.  

Or maybe we all missed the point at our dojang?  What do you think about your federation ill soo shik and ho sin shul?


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## okinawagojuryu (Aug 20, 2005)

I like your instructors way of thinking by the sound of it . Does he require bunkai for testing , as well ? Would you mind sharing your instructors name ? Does he have a website , as well ? I've always disliked the Fed 1 steps & Ho Sin Sul . There's more to SD then wrist grab defenses . 

David


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## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

My teacher's name is Mr. Dan Knoll. He does not have a website, however, I am working to create one for my dojang and his. It's only a matter of time. 

And, yes, this knowledge is required material for testing. Instead of Ill Soo Shik and Ho Sin Shul, we need to demonstrate our knowledge of the forms, our drills, and our instinctive responses.


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## Andy Cap (Aug 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa I don't belong to the federation you speak of, but in reading your post I get offended.  I think your post is offensive because you judge the techniques of the federation.  I don't mean to throw stones, and do not want a confronatation.  I simply feel that as martial artists we should try to avoid mud slinging.  

 Let us focus on your new techniques and discuss them.  Let us focus on what people find effective and what people like, not what they think is bad.  Your post would have been a great start to a productive conversation had you not throw judgements at an organization I would assume you are a product of.  

 Just as a note, I used to do the very same thing.  I would judge the value of a system and then publically slander it with my opinions.  I have since thought deeper on this concept and realized it was not the best approach.

 I hope you don't take offense at this, I simply would like to remove the infighting and noise from the martial arts as a whole._
_


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## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

I'm sorry you took offense to my post.  We all have different approaches to self defense.  My teacher and myself have decided that federation ill soo shik and ho sin shul are not for us and will not teach them.  The reasoning behind this decision is important and debateable.  Like I said, I could be missing the point.  

However, I do not think that I am.

Here is why...the stylized movements involved teach the TSD principles of development of power, use of hip, and distance/timing.  Yet, the attack intent and the responsive technique are not very realistic.  In fact, I can safely say that one will _never_ see anything resembling this in real life.

This, in my opinion, is dangerous.  We fight how we train, even Grandmaster Hwang said as much.  I would rather use our practice of basic techniques to develop TSD principles and train distance/timing and instinctive response through more realistic intuitive movement.  

btw - at Martial Talk we have an environment where we can openly share our feelings and opinions.  I did nothing more then that.  If you disagree with me please let me know how and why.  If the only thing you have is indignation because I expressed my feelings and opinions, I think that defeats the purpose of having discussions like this...


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## Andy Cap (Aug 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> My teacher and myself have decided that federation ill soo shik and ho sin shul are not for us and will not teach them.


 
 Simple enough.  That is all that needed to be said of them, and then you could send the message of what you have developed or learned.  Your message would be positive and possibly be better received.



			
				upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> btw - at Martial Talk we have an environment where we can openly share our feelings and opinions. I did nothing more then that. If you disagree with me please let me know how and why. If the only thing you have is indignation because I expressed my feelings and opinions, I think that defeats the purpose of having discussions like this...


 I do not agree or disagree - heck I don't even know what federation you are talking about.  I understand that this forum is here to discuss opinions and the like.  You are free to say what ever you want.  I just wanted to recommend a more diplomatic approach.  After all, did you want to discuss the validity of this federations self defense techniques or did you want to discuss what you have developed?  I imagine the latter.

 As I say, I was just making a suggestion.   I frequent a few martial arts forums and I see a lot of people arguing about what is wrong with each other's techniques or points of view rather than discussing what is valid about them.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

Andy Cap said:
			
		

> I understand that this forum is here to discuss opinions and the like. You are free to say what ever you want. I just wanted to recommend a more diplomatic approach.


This is a valid criticism.  The original post contains a fair amount of invective.  Words like "old" and "dead" describe my feelings, though.



			
				Andy Cap said:
			
		

> After all, did you want to discuss the validity of this federations self defense techniques or did you want to discuss what you have developed? I imagine the latter.


I would like to discuss both and hopefully retrace some of the reasoning that led me to my decision.


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## Andy Cap (Aug 20, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I would like to discuss both and hopefully retrace some of the reasoning that led me to my decision.


 Excellent!  Please continue.  I love to read people's thoughts and ideas on self defense and martial arts in general.


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## mtabone (Aug 20, 2005)

Upnorthkodanja,

With all due respect, I come from the other school of thought on the, Ill Soo Shik and most definitely the Ho Sin Shul. 

First let me say, these are merely a way to transmit principles of defense against an attack. Principles of distance, (stepping on a 45 degree angle as to give perfect distance to attack back) multiple hitting, and it is a blitzing movement to the open and closed side of an attacker. Principles like these need to become second nature. I do not expect my students to do number 13 lets say on the street, but the principles needed to defend are there. 

Take intermediate one step number one. Side step 45 degrees, open hand block. Punch one hand then the other, turning your stance each time to get maximum hip, and then step out and round house kick to the head. 

If I saw this on the street I would probably buy this guy a beer. 

But to sidestep out of harms way and attack back seems very plausible in real life to me, as I have done it many times. If you take number one lets say and go fast, you get a blitzing action, which seems a bit more realistic. 

A drill I like doing is have someone try hitting me in the face with three street punches in a row, and I sep back with two center soo dos to the outside (blindside) of my opponents body, and on the third one I step out and do what ever number comes to mind. 
Or perhaps no number comes to mind but I do something, because my partner is trying to hit me, so as long as it works and I dont kill my partner :uhyeah:

Ho sin shul again merely teaches principles. These mechanics dont really translate well (no any martial arts mechanics really translate over words?) in this post, and they are numerous. Again, I train these against people who resist and ever one works. I also have people grab me while I have a blindfold on, and I use the principles I learn in self defense to subdue them. Also, I have effectively used many joint locks and wrist manipulations in real life situations with great success. 

Does that mean this is the only way? No of course not. Does that make mine right and yours wrong? No sir. 

If we ever meet in real life sir, I would love to share with you more of what I am talking about, as well, I would love to have a demonstration of the Ill Soo Suk and Ho Sin Shul what you do as well.  I believe it would be a cool meeting of the minds.

TANG SOO!!!

Michael Tabone
 :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Aug 20, 2005)

mtabone said:
			
		

> Upnorthkodanja


Not quite yet.  However, I will take the hint.  These questions are best posed with a little more humility.  :asian: 

Principles is Ill Soo Shik can easily be taught as principles.  For instance, getting off line.  Any attack can suffice and all the defender has to do is move and position for a counter.  Applications for this principle are endless.  The same can be said of Ho Sin Shul.  Moving from the waist against the weakest direction of a grip is an over arching theme.  

These principles, IMO, are more important then the patterns we use to teach them.  

My biggest criticism of the patterns themselves is the implausability of most of it.  The set, clockwork, motion is counter-intuitive and the techniques trained into your reflexes would probably land a person in hot water.  I would rather train something that gives me a higher percentage of success.  Also, I feel that a little chaos in the attack and defense is a good thing.  Screwing up and learning how to deal with it quickly is not addressed with federation Ho Sin Shul and Ill Soo Shik.

My teacher says that he did not learn Tang Soo Do in the way the federation is now teaching it.  He learned an art more along the lines of what I have attempted to describe.  His explanation for why things changed is that as the federation grew, more and more people would test together and the examiners needed to find a way to get people to all start doing the same thing AND teach the principles.  His opinion is that the principles transferred, but the actual realistic defense did not.  Thus we see the conflict that sometimes develops between pedagogy and martial arts.


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## tsdclaflin (Aug 22, 2005)

My TSD geneology is a web of people leaving federatations/associations and starting new ones.  As a result, I have learned to completely different sets of both self-defense and one-steps.

For my curiousity, could you describe one or two of each.  I wonder which of my instructors was closer to the original.

Thanks,
Ken

For example, my most recent training included 4 cross hand grabs, 4 same side grabs, 3 2-on-1, etc. These had good components of self-defense, but I'm not sure I would follow any one of the sequences thru in a self-defense situation.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 23, 2005)

I was a member of the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan federation for years so that is the set of techniques that I learned.  However, I haven't been in the federation for years and I haven't practiced them.


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## TSDMDK16485 (Sep 14, 2005)

I want to put my input in here if you don't mind! What I have found out that Ill Soo Sik and Ho Sin Sool and Bunki. Its fine that your instructor dumped the ill soo sik and ho sin sool for the bunki. but what I have found is that in self defense situations is that it will only get you so far and vise-verse for ill soo sik and ho sin sool. In some federations they require you to make your own ill soo sik and ho sin sool that you feel most comfortable with. but in my past training bunki and ill soo sik and ho sin sool or a vital part of training in tang soo do. or any art as well. hope i didn't confuse anybody with this post.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 15, 2005)

I feel that there is so much information contained in our forms, we just don't need to come up with set patterns to show us how to use the most basic of basic interpretations of hyung technique.  I feel that the current state of Ill Soo Shik could best be taught informally as a way of doing soo ji and jok ji differently.  The deadly things that our hyung show are a treasure of power that many TSD praticioners have missed.  A hyung is like a poem.  We can "practice" it and say its pretty or we can "know" it and explore its layers.


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