# Playing my form 10,000 times.



## toranaga (Jul 22, 2010)

Hello,

I am a Yang style taiji player from Colorado.
I have learned my teacher's "24" form, and desire to learn the traditional "108" form.
I plan to play the form 10,000 times, before I move on to the "108".

I will be  noting my progress on my school's BLOG.

http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/21/introduction-to-10000-forms.aspx

I am happy to accept any questions, comments, kudos, or criticism.


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## geezer (Jul 23, 2010)

10,000 times. Wow. 

I'm not a Tai Chi practitioner, so I don't know exactly how many hours that translates too. Over a thousand? Anyway it sounds like a formidable challenge, not unlike the kinds of vows that monks take or religious devotees going on pilgrimages. From a martial arts perspective, I trust that you will be placing at least as much emphasis on _quality_ as quantity. If you don't do the form well, you'd simply be repeating errors 10,000 times. Ouch!


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## toranaga (Jul 23, 2010)

Thank you Geezer.

I am keeping a detailed paper journal, of course quality and mind intent are key to my progression.
I am also working very closely with my teacher.

my 24 form comes in at just under 3 minutes. so that is a whole lot of minutes.


today I did my 100th, so I feel good about being 1% done.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2010)

That is a lot of 24 form.

Why do you want to do it 10,000 times before moving on to the long form?


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## toranaga (Jul 23, 2010)

just a number I picked based on a quote, from an unknown source

"fear not the warrior who has learned 10,000 techniques, fear the warrior who has practiced 1 technique 10,000 times"

it should not take too long.
when I get the 108, I will play it 10,000 before moving to the staff, then for the dao.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 23, 2010)

Good luck to you.

The long form, if done right, can take about 20 minutes and 30 minutes is better.

I wouldn't focus on the number of times I do the form, quality is better than quantity.

But with that said my sigung liked his students to do the long form at least 3 times a day adn after about 6 months you would have a good understanding of it.... I think that works out to a over 500 times.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 23, 2010)

don't get too hung up on the number of repetitions.  Sometimes those quotes of 10,000 or 100,000 are really alegorical, and just mean, "keep practicing".


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## toranaga (Jul 23, 2010)

Thank you for your comments.


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## toranaga (Jul 25, 2010)

New BLOG post
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/24/day-1-to-10000-forms--july-2-2010-friday.aspx


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## toranaga (Jul 25, 2010)

another new BLOG post
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/24/day-2-to-10000-forms--july-3-2010-saturday-2.aspx


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## mograph (Jul 26, 2010)

... and who knows what may happen on the way to 10,000? Your teacher may ask you to practice something else after a few months, and just do the set twice a day. And then you may come back to more intense set practice later. Or not. 

Change is the only constant in life, no?


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## toranaga (Jul 26, 2010)

thank you for your reply Mograph


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## East Winds (Jul 26, 2010)

My Master used to tell me that practicing the form once correctly, was better that practicing the form 1000 times with errors. Practicing the form correctly once every so often would be great for me and I have been training Traditional Yang Family Form for over 20 years!!!!!! 

Incidentally, 24 step is not a Yang form, it is only based on Yang style and was formed by a committee on which there was no Yang family member.

Anyway, good luck with your endevour.

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2010)

East Winds said:


> Incidentally, 24 step is not a Yang form, it is only based on Yang style and was formed by a committee on which there was no Yang family member.


 
Very true, the person most responsible for the actual construction of 24 form (aka Beijing 24 form, 24 form, 24 competition form, Yang style 24 form, Yang 24 competition form, Yang short form, competition short form) was Li Tianji who is more a Xingyiquan person than taijiquan, although he did study Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan (Possibly briefly with Yang Chengfu). His Nephew (Li Deyin) is still teaching what his uncle designed along with what he himself designed, Xingyiquan and possibly Baguazhang


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## toranaga (Jul 27, 2010)

East Winds said:


> Incidentally, 24 step is not a Yang form, it is only based on Yang style and was formed by a committee on which there was no Yang family member.
> 
> Anyway, good luck with your endevour.
> 
> Very best wishes


please note, that i never wrote of a "yang" family 24 form.
I wrote of my teacher's "24" which, for whatever reasons he chooses, he adapted from his "108".


please read BLOG for details.
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/24/day-4-to-10000-forms--july-5-2010-monday.aspx


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## toranaga (Jul 27, 2010)

new BLOG posts

http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/24/day-4-to-10000-forms--july-5-2010-monday.aspx


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2010)

toranaga said:


> please note, that i never wrote of a "yang" family 24 form.
> I wrote of my teacher's "24" which, for whatever reasons he chooses, he adapted from his "108".
> 
> 
> ...


 

Yes you did say it was your teachers 24 form but...Sorry&#8230;no&#8230; he did not design that

On the site linked to your blog I see a label &#8220;Traditional Yang Style 24 Form&#8221; I watched the video and it is Beijing 24 form, there is no traditional 24 form. If this is what your teacher is teaching you your teacher did not design it anymore than I designed the 24 form that I do (that I learned from my first sifu 18 years ago) which looks incredibly traditional due to my 15 years training traditional Yang style with my 2nd sifu. But it is still the Beijing 24 form as it came from Li Tianji.


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## toranaga (Jul 27, 2010)

well congratulations on being right, and knowing so much about taijiquan.

as being right, and knowing so much, and name dropping seem to be all you care about.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2010)

toranaga said:


> well congratulations on being right, and knowing so much about taijiquan.
> 
> as being right, and knowing so much, and name dropping seem to be all you care about.


 
Excuse me.... name dropping!!!!

I cannot change history and the truth of the matter is that it is not a form your teacher nor is it traditional Yang styles 24 form since there is no such animal. I cannot change the fact that it was designed by Li Tianji nor can I change fact that it is not from the Yang family.



toranaga said:


> as being right, and knowing so much, and name dropping seem to be all you care about.


 
as to the above snippy little comment; I tend to care about truth as it applies to CMA on MT and the truth is your teacher did not design that form and if using historical facts such as the names for the people that really designed I, and deserve credit for it, is a problem then I suggest you stick to facts and not fantasy.


I have held my tongue through most of this and let it go as naiveté but historical inaccuracies and false claims I cannot let go...sorry...


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## toranaga (Jul 27, 2010)

again congratulation on being really smart, and good at taiji.

have fun in your practice and may good fortune smile upon you.

I think you take yourself a little too seriously, and are a little too quick to try and correct people.

the thread is about my practice, not who created the 24 posture form.

I does not matter to me, who created the form, or who taught you taijiquan.


Thanks for all your input, and have a pleasant day.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 27, 2010)

toranaga said:


> again congratulation on being really smart, and good at taiji.
> 
> have fun in your practice and may good fortune smile upon you.
> 
> ...


 
Truth hurts doesn't it

Just as a reminder



toranaga said:


> Hello.
> 
> I am a Yang style taiji player from Colorado.
> *I have learned my teacher's "24" form*, and desire to learn the traditional "108" form.
> ...


 



toranaga said:


> *please note, that i never wrote of a "yang" family 24 form.*





toranaga said:


> *I wrote of my teacher's "24" which, for whatever reasons he chooses, he adapted from his "108".*


 
You appeared to care a few posts ago...now... after being hit with historic fact and replying with a bit of a snotty post.....it does not seem to matter.


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## Rabu (Jul 27, 2010)

Its good to have goals.

It takes some courage, or at least some pride, to display them in public.

Dont be suprised if you receive feedback on your posts.

Best of luck in your practice and achieving your goals.

You can certainly not go wrong in listening to critique or feedback, and deciding how you apply it.  Just because someone may have offered feedback in a form you didnt like, doesnt mean it does not have value.

I believe in stating some level of skill and putting that skill in perspective, it was Xue's intent to validate what he was offering as advice or direction.

I do not believe for a moment that he was either trying to be condescending or bring arrogant in his statements.

Just a few pennies from a pig....

Rob


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## mograph (Jul 27, 2010)

It is often instructive to see if martial artists debate in the style of their martial art.

Should force be met with force?
... or should gentle direction be mistaken as force?

In the end, we can all learn from one another, no?


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## clfsean (Jul 27, 2010)

toranaga said:


> well congratulations on being right, and knowing so much about taijiquan.
> 
> as being right, and knowing so much, and name dropping seem to be all you care about.



How about quit being so uptight & listen to people who aren't selling (or trying to sell) you anything.

If I was talking Yang style, I'd listen to Xue & not argue. If I were talking Xingyi, I'd listen to Xue & not argue. 

It's not his fault information is being filled in for you that your sifu should've filled in from the get go. No alluding to things... straight up. It takes less time to be straight from the onset than providing vagueness to let you fill in the blanks and make assumptions or mislead by leaving out pertinent info. Then when you visit a social board (which this is) you get told the story you were given isn't exactly correct. 

Sorry... this one is on your teacher for not being clear... or on you for not asking & swallowing the whole dadgummed fishing rig without biting on it first.

Either way... ease up. You've been provided good info. If anything, I'd say thanks.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 29, 2010)

If I may ask a question

Why is your post on MT on Tuesday 07-27-2010, 10:04 AM linked to day 4 of your blog but on your blog the date of day 4 is listed as Day 4 to 10,000 forms - *July 5, 2010 Monday*


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## clfsean (Jul 30, 2010)

I think he took his toys & went home.


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## toranaga (Aug 1, 2010)

new blog posted
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/26/day-9-to-10000-forms--july-10-2010-saturday.aspx


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## toranaga (Aug 1, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> If I may ask a question
> 
> Why is your post on MT on Tuesday 07-27-2010, 10:04 AM linked to day 4 of your blog but on your blog the date of day 4 is listed as Day 4 to 10,000 forms - *July 5, 2010 Monday*



entries not necessarily written on same day as exercise.

I started my paper journal, before the decision to BLOG was made.

Thanks for following my progress.


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## toranaga (Aug 1, 2010)

Rabu said:


> Its good to have goals.
> 
> It takes some courage, or at least some pride, to display them in public.
> 
> ...





thanks for the insight Rob,
of course you are correct.


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## Rabu (Aug 2, 2010)

You are welcome.

I would rather be _liked_ than correct though, and so I reiterate what I said before:  Keep up the good work and know your goals.

Be well,

Rob


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## toranaga (Aug 3, 2010)

new BLOG post
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/categories/progress thru 10.aspx


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## toranaga (Aug 8, 2010)

More Blog posts.
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/07/29/day-15-to-10000-forms--july-16-2010-friday.aspx


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## toranaga (Aug 15, 2010)

new BLOG post with video of my 100th form
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/2010/08/12/day-22-to-10000-forms-july-23-2010-friday.aspx


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 16, 2010)

Fist congratulation on your 100th 

I am hesitant to post anything and likely any comment from me is not welcome but if I might suggest working on intent in the form. 

I have other suggestions but I will not say anymore unless you request it, and if you prefer I will do this via PM. Or if you prefer I will simply shut my mouth.


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## East Winds (Aug 16, 2010)

What Xue Sheng said!!! My main comment would be that you "short change"  your postures. i.e. you do not complete the posture, therefore you are not delivering any of the energies required for martial applications.

Very best wishes


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## toranaga (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks to you both for taking time to watch the video.
I know I have much work to do.

Today I cross the 200 mark and will be making a new video to post on youtube.

Xue, don't hold back, moving forward with positive attitudes.  all comments welcome.   Comments on form is what I am after.


EW, thanks for watching, I need as much help as I can get


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 16, 2010)

Intent is very important, concentrate on the form while you are doing it, and concentrate on the posture. Every posture has a distinct beginning and ending but that does not mean a stop between each posture. They all flow into one another.  

Also just as a general comment about just about any Martial art form/posture. It is more than getting from A (the beginning) to B (the end) it is more like getting from A to Z and all the other letters in between should be correct as well.


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## jks9199 (Aug 16, 2010)

Let me caveat this with the statement that I don't know tai chi to any particular depth, and that your courage in attempting to reach 10000 reps of the form AND to documenting it is commendable...

That said... when I've seen skilled tai chi, bagua or other internal form stylists peform their form, there is a rooting and solidity that you're lacking.  I can't say why you're lacking it, though it may be in your stances and in the intention mentioned by others.  Remember that the motions, be they assuming a stance, extending a hand or foot, stepping or shifting, or whatever, are meaningful and should be intentional and deliberate, rather than as if they were simply drifting, if that makes sense.


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## toranaga (Aug 16, 2010)

Xue, than you for the pointers, I will take you advice to heart, for it is great advice.


JKS, thank you for your words of encouragement, and for your advice.

I know I have lots of hard work to do, that is why I chose such a high number.

I am only 7 months into my training, coming from a very sedentary lifestyle.
This whole "moving my body" thing is pretty new to me.
I was 380 pounds when I started, and now I am just over 350 pounds.
That is a whole lot of weight to move around.  I am just getting to the point where I am not out of breath after playing my form, in fact I am up to playing it 4 times in a row, in regular intervals.
The intent is coming, the footwork still sloppy, the movements still sluggish.
I try to make each play better than the last.

I have added a daily 5 mile walk to my training.
Also I practice Taiji Qigong at least an hour everyday, and at least an hour of push hands training every day also.


Please know that I am committed to the art, and appreciate any and all comments, kudos, or complaints.
I know there are some very skilled players here, who can help me grow.


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## mograph (Aug 16, 2010)

Toranaga, what are your intentions when you are moving? 
What are you thinking when you're moving? 
Where is your attention for a given move, and in general? 
What are you trying to do inside?


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## toranaga (Aug 16, 2010)

mograph said:


> Toranaga, what are your intentions when you are moving?
> What are you thinking when you're moving?
> Where is your attention for a given move, and in general?
> What are you trying to do inside?



MO,
sometimes the intent is martial, sometimes qigong.
mostly just keeping proper posture of shoulders and pelvis.
It is very hard for me to have martial and qigong going at the same time.
I am just a beginner , and sometimes feel overwhelmed by the amount of detail that goes into the movements.
I will persevere, and any coaching you can give me is welcomed.


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## East Winds (Aug 16, 2010)

toranaga,

Congratulations on accepting the comments made on this board about your form. For 7 months in, I would say you are making excellent progress. Can I suggest you look up Yang Chen Fu's 10 Essences (freely available on the web) and try to include them in your practice. But remember that these essences are cummulative. In other words, you can't be doing essence 2 unless you are already doing essence 1 and so on

These 10 essences are the real "secret" of Tai Chi Chuan!!!!!

Good luck with your practice

Very best wishes ​


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## mograph (Aug 16, 2010)

Toranaga, if you can combine my question with East Winds' answer, you'd be off to a great start.


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## toranaga (Aug 16, 2010)

EW, I read Cheng-Fu's essences often.
I will re-read tonight and start applying the first.
thanks for the input.


MO,
 thanks again


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## TaiChiTJ (Aug 16, 2010)

> I have added a daily 5 mile walk to my training.
> Also I practice Taiji Qigong at least an hour everyday, and at least an hour of push hands training every day also.


 
Impressive! Good Luck!


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## toranaga (Aug 16, 2010)

Thank TJ.
Today was my first 5 mile day.
I have been working up to the five mile mark.

there is a park with a paved trail, around a small lake.  The lap is 1.25 miles.
I pause after each lap and play my form.   It is a grand way to start the day.


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## toranaga (Aug 26, 2010)

MOre BLOG POSTS everyday
check it out
http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/categories/progress thru 10.aspx


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## toranaga (Sep 14, 2010)

I'm still out here doing my thing.
new blog posts every day

http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/categories/progress thru 10.aspx


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## toranaga (Sep 24, 2010)

New Blog posted every day http://blog.taichicoloradosprings.com/categories/progress thru 10.aspx


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