# Koto ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu



## heretic888 (Jul 14, 2003)

Hey guys, I'm doin' a bit of research at the moment, and I'd wonder if you'd all help me out.

In your own words, how would you characterize and describe Koto-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu?? You know, in terms of techniques, principles, ideologies, feelings, flow, etc etc??

Thanks. Laterz.


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## Pyros (Jul 14, 2003)

Hehee. I'll start with the obvious so others can get right to the point... Gyokko Ryu is the source for Kihon Happo. Koto Ryu is famous for it's bone manipulation tactics.


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## heretic888 (Jul 16, 2003)

Errr.... anyone else??


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

http://www.bujinkanbc.com/Ryuinfo.htm

This site gives rather extensive information on the martial arts you are interested in. Ninjutsu sites of all the Nine Ryu will usually contain an excerpt on them. They are the Bone Martial Arts, and are rather rare. I would recommend hiring a video on them if you want to find out more. 

An alternative suggestion is to try using Nina Williams in Tekken 5 (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken5/profile.php?id=nina), if you are into games. The game is rather realistic, and has realistic motion animation. Her pressure points will give you a feel of Gyokko-Ryu, whilst her bone breaking techniques will give you an idea of Koto-Ryu. Keep in mind though her style is a blend of Aikido, the Bone MAs and commando kicks/grapples, so you have to know what to look for. She is also extremely specialised and experienced, so keep in mind some of the moves are more flexible than what you may be taught if you were to learn the art. I used to wonder why her bone strikes were so powerful, but when I read up on the arts she uses, it made sense. The training regime forms your limbs into lethal weapons, and the strikes are at extremely vulnerable parts of the human body.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Feb 8, 2006)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Hey guys, I'm doin' a bit of research at the moment, and I'd wonder if you'd all help me out.
> 
> In your own words, how would you characterize and describe Koto-ryu Koppojutsu and Gyokko-ryu Kosshijutsu?? You know, in terms of techniques, principles, ideologies, feelings, flow, etc etc??
> 
> Thanks. Laterz.


 
From what I have experienced..

Koto-ryu: straightforward. To the point. Your opponent comes to you intending to do harm. Just as he is about to get close to you, you jam your fingers on his throat and rake his face, possibly gouging out an eye or two. Quick destruction!

Gyokko-ryu: How to defeat strong and stubborn opponent. He punch you, you block, he tried to kick you, you avoid. He still wants to fight you, so he lunged at you and grab your lapel. You apply wristlock to him and kick him to make sure he stays down after you throw him. Then you jump away to safety. End of fight.


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## Kreth (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> They are the Bone Martial Arts, and are rather rare.


??? Actually, these two systems are taught quite frequently in the Bujinkan...


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## Bigshadow (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> Her pressure points *will give you a feel* of Gyokko-Ryu, whilst her bone breaking techniques *will give you an idea* of Koto-Ryu.


Whaaaa? You have got to be kidding!  :roflmao:   

So you mean a picture of a pot of soup will give an idea of how it tastes?

That kind of reminds me of my son who thought he could play tennis because he was good at Mario Tennis.  We went out to the REAL tennis courts and he found out it was alot of work and the experience wasn't even close to what he thought it would be! :roflmao:


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## Cryozombie (Feb 8, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> That kind of reminds me of my son who thought he could play tennis because he was good at Mario Tennis. We went out to the REAL tennis courts and he found out it was alot of work and the experience wasn't even close to what he thought it would be! :roflmao:


 
It amazes me how common it is to think that these things can be learned from videogames.  Granted, I have seen some moves in some games (like DOA3) that I have looked at and said... "Hmm, that looks like it could work, if..."  in much the same way as you can see somthing in a video and go... Hmm... 

But learn it from a game?  Might as well lay down in a hole now...


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## mrhnau (Feb 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It amazes me how common it is to think that these things can be learned from videogames.  Granted, I have seen some moves in some games (like DOA3) that I have looked at and said... "Hmm, that looks like it could work, if..."  in much the same way as you can see somthing in a video and go... Hmm...
> 
> But learn it from a game?  Might as well lay down in a hole now...



I think its about the same as a movie.. its good entertainment, and if it does inspire you to pursue a real martial art, then all the better!

As far as learning from a video game, I'd agree, that would be pretty silly, in the same way I should not learn MA from those incredibly fun kung fu movies


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It amazes me how common it is to think that these things can be learned from videogames. Granted, I have seen some moves in some games (like DOA3) that I have looked at and said... "Hmm, that looks like it could work, if..." in much the same way as you can see somthing in a video and go... Hmm...
> 
> But learn it from a game?  Might as well lay down in a hole now...


As if I said you can actually learn the techniques from the game...No. Obviously you cannot. They do, however, use motion animators to get the moves worked out, as well as hire martial artists to capture their motions and so on. So, the game can actually demonstrate what the moves look like if that's what you're aiming for. So its a good way to see what they are like. So yes the moves look realistic, yes they look powerful, but no, I never implied its a valid way of learning them...for now. Virtual reality might yet change that.

As for the rarity of the two arts, well in Europe finding a Bujinkan school is not an easy matter. I am surprised to ask Masters here if they have heard of Gyokko/Koto Ryu to end up having them ask me "what the hell is that?" Really good ones too. Other martial arts, like Aikido, are much easier to find trainers for. To be absolutely honest, had I not heard of the specific Ryu's from Tekken, and had I not seen documentaries on Bujinkan, I would not know it existed either.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 8, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> I think its about the same as a movie.. its good entertainment, and if it does inspire you to pursue a real martial art, then all the better!


I agree with that wholeheartedly!  Training videos are the same.  Unless someone has experienced/felt it, the training videos are virtually of no use other than just entertainment.


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> I agree with that wholeheartedly! Training videos are the same. Unless someone has experienced/felt it, the training videos are virtually of no use other than just entertainment.


Yet he said he's doing research on it, not actually wanting to study the art.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> Yet he said he's doing research on it, not actually wanting to study the art.


True, but what better way to research it, than try it out, "feel" it.  I will forewarn anyone wanting to, it is addictive!


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> True, but what better way to research it, than try it out, "feel" it. I will forewarn anyone wanting to, it is addictive!


Well I was under the impression that Ninjutsu was quite rare outside of Japan. It certainly is in Europe.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Feb 8, 2006)

Can't be too rare around your parts, have a look at www.winjutsu.com.


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Can't be too rare around your parts, have a look at www.winjutsu.com.


Hmm, quite a few of them, but most of them are in London. I am way up North. -_-


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## rutherford (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> Well I was under the impression that Ninjutsu was quite rare outside of Japan. It certainly is in Europe.


 
Nimravus is in Europe, and most of the people responding in this thread are Bujinkan members.  Me too. 

:wavey:


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

rutherford said:
			
		

> Nimravus is in Europe, and most of the people responding in this thread are Bujinkan members.  Me too.
> 
> :wavey:


Cool to know.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> To be absolutely honest, had I not heard of the specific Ryu's from Tekken, and had I not seen documentaries on Bujinkan, I would not know it existed either.


 
MOST of my exposure in the Bujinkan has been to those two ryus, as far as I know.  I was under the mistaken impression before I started training with my current instructor about 3 years ago that most of what I had seen came from Togakure Ryu, but that is not the case.  

I'm sorry to disagree with you, but motion capture or not... I wouldnt try and learn about a specific art from watching moves in a videogame.  I do some work with an Indie film company, and from that perspective I remind  you that whenever you use an art for "entertainment" purposes, it has to be "opened up" so the movements are visible, look cool, and have value as entertainment... I would have to believe the same holds true of most fighting games, the attack, to look good and attract a buyer, has to have some "flair" to it... and therefore probably isn't true to what the art actually is.


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> MOST of my exposure in the Bujinkan has been to those two ryus, as far as I know. I was under the mistaken impression before I started training with my current instructor about 3 years ago that most of what I had seen came from Togakure Ryu, but that is not the case.


I think Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu are two of the first ryus you learn, no?



> I'm sorry to disagree with you, but motion capture or not... I wouldnt try and learn about a specific art from watching moves in a videogame. I do some work with an Indie film company, and from that perspective I remind you that whenever you use an art for "entertainment" purposes, it has to be "opened up" so the movements are visible, look cool, and have value as entertainment... I would have to believe the same holds true of most fighting games, the attack, to look good and attract a buyer, has to have some "flair" to it... and therefore probably isn't true to what the art actually is.


Neither would I, as I have said repeatedly. As I said, it did stimulate an interest in the martial arts in me though.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> Neither would I, as I have said repeatedly.


 
Wait... so you are saying you wouldnt reccomend trying to learn about them from using Nina Williams in Tekken 5?

Then, what is this:



			
				Elhan said:
			
		

> I would recommend hiring a video on them if you want to find out more.
> 
> An alternative suggestion is to try using Nina Williams in Tekken 5 (http://www.tekkenzaibatsu.com/tekken5/profile.php?id=nina), if you are into games. The game is rather realistic, and has realistic motion animation. Her pressure points will give you a feel of Gyokko-Ryu, whilst her bone breaking techniques will give you an idea of Koto-Ryu. Keep in mind though her style is a blend of Aikido, the Bone MAs and commando kicks/grapples, so you have to know what to look for.


 
Sounds to me like you said: If you want an alternative suggestion to find out more about them, use Nina Williams from Tekken 5.

In fact... that IS what you said.


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Wait... so you are saying you wouldnt reccomend trying to learn about them from using Nina Williams in Tekken 5?
> 
> Then, what is this:
> 
> ...


About what they LOOK like. Not to learn how to use them or learn more about them. I even specified certain types of moves. The fact that I posted a link for information about them should at least imply I don't expect the poster to learn the moves from the game. The motion animation is good, and from what instructors have shown me, the moves she uses do look realistic enough to give an idea of how they look.


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## Cryozombie (Feb 8, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> About what they LOOK like. Not to learn how to use them or learn more about them.


 
Ok, ok.  Thats not at all what your original post _said_, thank you for clarifying what you _meant_.


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## Elhan (Feb 8, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Ok, ok.  Thats not at all what your original post _said_, thank you for clarifying what you _meant_.


No problem.  I would never recommend a video game as a method for training in a martial art, let alone even a DVD video. I'll be clearer in future posts.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> I think Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu are two of the first ryus you learn, no?


As far as I know, I couldn't tell you with any certainty what ryu(s) my training has come from.  I have heard several ryus mentioned and I think my training has had a bit of all of them in it, but I couldn't tell you for sure and I really am not too concerned about it either.  



			
				Elhan said:
			
		

> As I said, it did stimulate an interest in the martial arts in me though.


There is nothing wrong with that either!


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## mrhnau (Feb 9, 2006)

Elhan said:
			
		

> I think Koto Ryu and Gyokko Ryu are two of the first ryus you learn, no?



With our group, we first learn Kihon Happo from Gyokko and the Sanshin from Koto.

I'd be curious to hear if other groups do the same, and if not, what they tend to learn first...


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## Bigshadow (Feb 9, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> With our group, we first learn Kihon Happo from Gyokko and the Sanshin from Koto.
> 
> I'd be curious to hear if other groups do the same, and if not, what they tend to learn first...


We definitely learned Kihon and Sanshin first.  Kihon and sanshin is still in everything we do.   It is always there.


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## Elhan (Feb 9, 2006)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> With our group, we first learn Kihon Happo from Gyokko and the Sanshin from Koto.
> 
> I'd be curious to hear if other groups do the same, and if not, what they tend to learn first...


Sounds great. I had always thought of Ninjutsu as the use of trickery and stealth rather than an actual fighting regime, until I saw some documentaries on Bujinkan and started getting names of the various ryu from movies, games and so on, and researching them. I'm quite fascinated about how complete a system it seems to be. I'll definitely look into it.


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