# What is it all about ? Self Defense



## Infinite (Feb 23, 2007)

So I've been reading various posts and I've finally decided I've had enough of "never do" or "always do" or what not.

It appears that some people do not understand the core concept behind what self defense is. Self defense is simply having more options while reducing your attackers options.

ALL conflict comes down to this principal. If you can do 15 things and he can only do 4 ALL of the advantage is in your favor. Does this mean you will succeed? No there are several hundred steps between options and execution.

In the end how ever if you choose to eliminate options from your skill set then you are doing HALF of the job of your attacker. 

Options are not defined simply by techniques but by everything. Options to run too move to talk to appease. All of these are weapons in our self defense toolbag. 

Think of it like this, we wanted to LEARN martial arts this learning is increasing our options we PRACTICE them to use them effectively.

These are two sides of the same coin. I see people who constantly start down this path only to decide through some mechanism to reduce their own options.

In some cases there is no choice if you have a physical issue that prevents you from doing something then you shouldn't obviously attempt it. However in cases where the only limiting factor is fear or ignorance we should remember to think of things objectively and realize that absolutes are a dead end in both evolution and life.

I trust that everyone on this board would likely agree with this statement (talk about absolutes eh?)

"In the event that someone I loved was in mortal danger I would use all means necessary to protect them from harm." This is the mantra of self defense. You may not LIKE a move you may feel it is too risky but to decide that you would never do it is a mental block that could cost you dearly in the future.

Now, discussion on! 

--Infy 

P.S.
Hey Brian I'd be interested in your response to this given the name of your school and previous insights.


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## Bigshadow (Feb 23, 2007)

I agree with you!  Self defense is not on or off.  It encompasses what you said.  It is using everything at your disposal to come home alive or to save a life. 

I really like Jack Hoban's take on Warriorship and the Living Values he talks about.


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 23, 2007)

I would agree that you should do whatever is neccessary to save your life, (unless this involves the ushering in of a Zombie Apocalypse and/or The End of Days. Then it is recommended you take it like a man.)

However that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to work out what logically are the best options to use. So rather than "never" do a particular method, it should instead be "don't do it unless you have to", ranging in order of whatever the hell gets you out of there as fast as possible.


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## flashlock (Feb 23, 2007)

I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.

That's what is so wrong with so many martial artists.  They practice 10 different kicks, 10 different punches/strikes, and a smattering of grappling--then when push comes to shove, they don't know what tool to get out of their over-crowded tool boxes, and they hesitate.

Jacks of all trades, masters of none.

WWII guys like Applegate believed you should pick 10 good moves, and practice them over and over.  Look at the simplicity of BJJ (in terms of amounts of moves) and its general success in competitions.  Less is more!


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## tellner (Feb 23, 2007)

About the only "never" and "always" we use in self defense class are:


Never allow yourself to be taken to a secondary crime scene
Never acquiesce to being tied up or otherwise restrained
Always do whatever you decide to 100%, without hesitation or holding back


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## cubankenpo (Feb 23, 2007)

i agree with u
but its not important to know many defenses, the main thing is knowing a few, but combine them, option is effectivity so mixing u can get good results,
joe


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 23, 2007)

```
I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.
```
 

There is alot of wisdom in that statement. Look at Tai Chi Chuan. There is warding off, roll back, press and push. These actions are supplemented by hip and elbow bumps (called kao in chinese), pulling down and splitting the opponents body in two directions. 

That adds up to eight actions (they can be done in 5 directions, the chinese add the eight actions to the five directions and come up with 13 primal energies of Tai Chi. 

Listen to Glenn Hairston: 

http://www.internaldamagetaichi.com/     :ultracool


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2007)

I started this thread, which brings up some similar points. Many times people will say that you can't possibly be prepared for every situation. In the thread I linked, a member stated:



> To take this analogy and run with it...
> 
> Sure, being able to do five things perfectly is great, and it will serve you well so long as you only ever need to do those five things.
> 
> My opinion is that it is a big bad world out there, and you can't count on being able to get by on a limited (even if perfected) skill-set. Whether you re-examine a single art to get the most out of it, or take techniques from multiple arts, it is important to be comfortable and competent at all ranges of fighting.


 
I agree with this.  I have a number of techniques off of various punches.  Do I have my favorites? Sure, but I still work on that "what if" phase.  What if the opponent does this?  What if he does that?  So, while some can say they'd rather have a few things, those few things are going to be limited when it comes to the 'what if.'  

I cross train in BJJ.  Am I a master? Not even close.  But, between what I know from BJJ in addition to my other arts, I'm comfortable on the ground.  My goal is not to cuddle for 20min. but to get back to my feet.  So while I train a bunch of arm locks, leg locks, mount, guard and side escapes, positions, etc., I have my fav. things to do, but I don't limit myself to a handful of moves.

Mike


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## still learning (Feb 24, 2007)

Hello,  FIGHT OR FLEE....IF need to fight....anything goes...anything (bats,guns knives can be use against you too)...you need to be ready for anything.

When the adrenline kicks in..the fear factor..working...most of us will get tunnel vision.  Hopefully we train often and hard enough for our skills to kick in natually.

Having your mind train to response to: The Killer instincts or survival instincts...to think FIGHT BACK WITH NO FEAR....Fight back anyway....

when it is for real.....Will we be able to TO DO THE RIGHT THINGS?

Most of us do not practice in real places,dark,scary,unknowns situtions...very rare for anyone to practice in the adrenline response..and all alone too....

One thing that will help you survive is too: FIGHT BACK ANYWAY-NO matter the odds, (If unable to talk your way out),and NO choices......But also find a way to escape (run).

There are NO simple answers in a real situtions...in practice things are different.  NO one can train you being in a real situtions, with the real fears! all alone too....

Just ask any soldier who prepares for wars...and goes into one! 



 Best to be humble and kind....will give you a longer life!   

Self-defense will it work? ....Depends on the person and how they react, Fear changes a person sometimes...Just my thoughts ....Aloha


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## Shotgun Buddha (Feb 24, 2007)

MJS said:


> I started this thread, which brings up some similar points. Many times people will say that you can't possibly be prepared for every situation. In the thread I linked, a member stated:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Damn right. You can't plan on how to deal with a problem, unless you study how the problem works.
Likewise you can't make a game plan, unless you have enough pieces to play the game in the first place.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2007)

It certainly has little to do with the amount of techniques one has or how few techniques one knows.  What it really comes down to is the ability to apply *universal principles* in the moment.  Self Defense and personal protection can work in many ways and you could have ten good techniques but be unable to apply them due to the changing factors and principles involved.  You could have 5,000 techniques (or more) and suffer the same consequence.  Or you could work through constant practice to have the principles down and then walla *if *you can apply them you will be able to adapt them to multiple situations in the real world.

Budo Taijutsu, BJJ, Arnis and many more arts have almost unlimited techniques.  Lots and lots of techniques but it is the person that understands and has the correct body movement that can apply the principles. (these people are few and far between at least the really good ones)

Lastly there are *no absolutes*.  Nothing in personal protection will prepare you for the real thing and nothing will guarantee you success.  The only thing you can do is train and train thorough and train smart plus have a little luck in the moment of a violent encounter.  Hopefully you have somone experienced along the way to show you how the principles work. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Great Thread!


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## zDom (Feb 24, 2007)

flashlock said:


> I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.
> 
> That's what is so wrong with so many martial artists.  They practice 10 different kicks, 10 different punches/strikes, and a smattering of grappling--then when push comes to shove, they don't know what tool to get out of their over-crowded tool boxes, and they hesitate.
> 
> ...



I can't speak for all martial artists, but from my experience:

techniques were added progressively.

At white belt I was taught one punch, three different kicks.

Now after over 15 years of training, I have a very long list of techniques that I not only "know" but have trained thousands of repetitions for each technique.

Here is the important part, though: I don't "think" about which technique I am going to use anymore. They are all just THERE for me.

What would I "do" if someone attacked me? Pfft. I can't answer that question. There are too many variables  it really depends on how the attacker moves, the overall situation. But I know this for a fact (from experience!)

I do SOMETHING, effectively, with confidence and conviction, with no thought.

I think the Japanese call it "no mind."

But I never "freeze up" while I mentally review my list of potential techniques.

Afterward, I usually go "Wow.. never thought I would have done THAT ..."



The nice thing is, even if someone studied me specifically for weaknesses, good luck with that. How can they figure out what I'm going to do when I don't even know? Too many possibilities.

Predictability is a LIABILITY in fighting. I exploit it all the time during free sparring.

It has been pointed out that most people know what a BJJ stylist is going to do.

Believe me, with all the popularity of BJJ right now, there are a lot of wanna-be's studying and mimicking that style.

(Not disrespecting dedicated BJJ stylists, btw; there is no doubt they are top of the heap when it comes to ground work, and that their techniques are effective)

But don't think that I am going to be caught surprised by someone shooting in on me for a double leg/single leg takedown when I KNOW there are thousands of UFC fans practicing this with their buddies in the backyard anymore than the looping John Wayne punch that, pre UFC, was the most likely attack from troublemakers.

So IMO it is better to train a handful of techniques thousands of times than 50 techniques a few dozen times. That is a great way to start.

But it is even better to train 50 techniques thousands of times once you have the first handful burned into to your muscle memory with thousands of reps.

And then 100 techniques. And then 200. Etc.


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## kidswarrior (Feb 24, 2007)

flashlock said:


> I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.
> 
> That's what is so wrong with so many martial artists. They practice 10 different kicks, 10 different punches/strikes, and a smattering of grappling--then when push comes to shove, they don't know what tool to get out of their over-crowded tool boxes, and they hesitate.
> 
> ...


 
Well, I agree and disagree.  As an instructor, I want to keep learning, trying, and even practicing the things I'm not personally very good at, so I can offer a whole store of tools to students to put in their toolbox (that's the disagree part). But I also have my list of 'dirty dozen' things I practice relentlessly for myself, so if the adrenaline dump got so severe I forgot most everything and had to rely on lower brain/fight or flight/muscle memory, I would still be able to acquit myself (that's the agree part). As students mature in the arts, I then encourage them to show me 'their' dirty dozen (which should change over time, as they become more adept and learn more).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 24, 2007)

flashlock said:


> I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.
> 
> That's what is so wrong with so many martial artists. They practice 10 different kicks, 10 different punches/strikes, and a smattering of grappling--then when push comes to shove, they don't know what tool to get out of their over-crowded tool boxes, and they hesitate.
> 
> ...


 
Actually BJJ is one really broad art.  There are almost unlimited techniques to learn.  However it is the principle of movement which applies in BJJ and every other art that makes things work.


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## TaiChiTJ (Feb 24, 2007)

```
It certainly has little to do with the amount of techniques one has or how few techniques one knows. What it really comes down to is the ability to apply universal principles in the moment.
```
 
Another awesomely wise statment. 

I like Glenn Hairstons statement in his video: 

"It doesn't matter how fast you can move, how hard you can hit, how big you are, how strong you are. Can you transfer energy?"

That really strikes a chord in me.


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## Robert Lee (Feb 24, 2007)

If a person does not have the key to relly fight They can know alot and never be able to use it. Heart to fight must be a key tool. The more you know is not the better. each person is different each fight is different. Find the tools that best meeets your needs train those hard fight hard and they will be there for you. No style, Art is the key for every person just the bits and peices that work for just that person.


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## tellner (Feb 25, 2007)

And of course, there's the dirty little secret. Attitude without technique beats the hell out of technique without attitude. Unless you can get the students to make the decision or The Decision what you teach them won't amount to much. It will just be waving their arms and legs around. If they can learn to be on at least a nodding acquaintance with their Thing in the Cave they've learned most of what they need to know for most situations. At that point the curriculum becomes a way of making that defense more efficient.


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2007)

zDom said:


> I can't speak for all martial artists, but from my experience:
> 
> techniques were added progressively.
> 
> ...


 
Great post!! IMO, I think alot of times people get too caught up with the techniques.  I've always viewed them as an option, but nothing necessarily set in stone.  As an example.  I'd run a technique line, in which one person is in the middle of a circle or at the head of the line, and the others are throwing punches, kicks, etc.  Sometimes, I'd be the one to call out the attack.  I'd call out an attack that the person didn't have a technique for, and they'd have that deer in the headlights look.  I'd ask them if they knew how to move, block, punch and kick.  They'd say yes, and I'd say, well, then you know what to do.  Don't think about it, just react, and ya know what...they did!


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## Infinite (Feb 28, 2007)

So we have two camps it seems.

1) Which is my camp: Learn as much as you can practice what you can and minimize the risk of attacks through understanding.
2) The other camp: Learn what you can count on practice those moves and adapt those moves to your situation.

Its funny both are the same thing just said differently.

In my previous post I state, "Learning is one side, Execution is the other." it is combining the two that give us Self Defense.

I think Brian was really insightful you practice to minimize your risk. The more you know about the concepts behind your moves the more likely you are to see a point where you can leverage it.

Next you have to practice those moves so you can tell when those exploits are going to be availible. Part of most martial arts are fients. Which are designed to exploit someones training to exploit opportunities by creating fake ones  (you could do this line of logic all day)

All in all it breaks down too, The more you know the more options you have. The more you can do the more options you have. The more you know and can do the more likely you are to escape a self defense situation with minimal injury.

--Infy


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## jdinca (Feb 28, 2007)

flashlock said:


> I don't want more options, I want a few options that are good.
> 
> That's what is so wrong with so many martial artists.  They practice 10 different kicks, 10 different punches/strikes, and a smattering of grappling--then when push comes to shove, they don't know what tool to get out of their over-crowded tool boxes, and they hesitate.
> 
> ...



The flip side of that coin is that you take all you've learned, add to it over time, and practice it over and over again in any number of different combinations so that when the time comes, you don't have to think and hesitate, you just do.


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## patrick22 (Mar 9, 2007)

idk about all that to me lol...it just comes to me like action reaction now i dont even really think except when im gonna be in a demo agaisnt 5 or 6 black belts thats gonna give me a world of hurt


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