# Picking a martial art?



## kapas (Mar 18, 2015)

Hey Guys/Girl, my name is Andrew and i just registered here in the forum because in the next week i will choose a martial art to do, and improve. I really like taekwondo and my main goal is not to go to the competitive side, but for self defending (of course competitive will be part of the training and i may join some if im good at it, but my main goal as i said is self defensing). I will explain: I have 19 years old, but since i only have 1,69 meters (5.5 feet) i am not very confident about myself and my hability to self defending me if i need to in street. I dont want to fight with anybody, but if i have to i must be prepared. So my question here is if someone did ever used taekwondo in street for self defending and how did it gone? and how can u kick someone if u are wearing jeans?

Thanks in advance


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## TrueJim (Mar 18, 2015)

My thought, for what it's worth: if your primary interest is self-defense, it's probably at least as important to pick which _school_ as it is which _art_. There are some taekwondo schools that do a lot of self-defense, and a lot of schools that don't. That's probably true to some extent for other martial arts as well. For example, near me there's a Wushu school that does almost no self defense, as well as some karate schools nearby that do not emphasize self-defense. 

What you might want to do is visit several schools close to where you live, from several different styles of martial arts, and ask them how much self-defense training they do. I believe it was another thread in this forum where somebody posted these excellent suggestions for self-defense training:

Training in street clothes sometimes rather than just taekwondo uniforms
Education in how to be more aware of one's surroundings, with emphasis on potential threatening situations
Training in environments outside the taekwondo school (parking lots, alleys, etc.)
Avoidance of combat via techniques such as verbal de-escalation and calls for assistance
Training to escape or evade a threatening situation
Self defense against armed attackers
Self defense against multiple attackers
Identification and use-of improvised weapons
Self defense from ground positions (e.g., grappling)
Self defense when at a disadvantage (hands full of groceries, protecting a child, etc.)
Understanding of laws pertaining to the use of self defense
What to do _after_ defending one's self (getting to safety, calling the authorities, getting medical attention)
As you visit schools near you, you could ask them how much (if any) of these things they do. If you find a school that does many of these things, it might be a good self-defense school.


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## Drose427 (Mar 18, 2015)

Style isn't nearly as important as instructors and your desire to improve.

Even doing kukki-TKD (what you see in the olympics) you'll learn to take hits.

Learning Muay Thai you may not learn takedowns.

Sport BJJ schools may not teach you self defense 

If you want self defense, find a good or even decent school that focuses on it regardless of art, and put in some time outside of class.

How an instructional class goes doesn't define how a practitioner trains. 

That sad,

In the 4 years I've been training I've used it 6 times. I only kicked twice, for a leg sweep. I could have went for the side kick to the ribs, could have front kicked the chin on one of them. But, that would've created massive liability for me. 

The first time I ever used it was against a drunk frat boy, he tried to clinch and I knocked him out with an elbow and fractured his jaw. Found myself in the police station getting a talking to about how with my training I over did it since it was just a drunk idiot, not another real threatening situation. 

I never had to go to court, no charges were filed for either side, and I haven't seen the frat guy since. But I did have to spend the night at the station, and they could have charged me with battery.

It sounds bogus, but if you ever have a lawyer of LEO tell you what you are allowed and aren't allowed to do it will blow your mind. (This is in OH, your state may be different)

Liabilities of things like head and body kicks aside, 

You aren't going to be told to use them in SD, I've never seen anyone advocate sport style TKD sparring for SD, you'll learn to fight with your hands, to do locks, throws, clinches, etc.

regardless of what you train in or how often, you need to be working with as many styles in as many ways as you can. 

A style doesn't defend you, you have to practice, spar, drill, and do it yourself.

It's all in how well your instructor can teach and explain things to you, and how much effort you put in


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## Mephisto (Mar 18, 2015)

See what's available near you, see what classes are during times you can attend, see what you can afford. That should pretty much make your decision for you, or narrow it down.

That being said, if you're just beginning your martial arts journey, I'd recommend you get into a style and school that does lots of training with a resisting opponent. Arts like judo, bjj, boxing, Muay thai, mma, kyokushin karate, are solid arts. Most of these schools take a competitive approach and will teach you how to handle an aggressive attacker. You can't get good at fighting if you don't fight, regular sparring or grappling will do just this (and will do wonders for your self confidence). Most of these schools will ease you into sparring and the coaches and practitioners are down to earth guys. Conditioned athletes can be unintentionally be intimidating to some who are more timid but don't be turned off, if you want to be a lion you've got to train with lions.

As for tkd? In the us, I wouldn't recommend it for fighting ability. It's very commercialized and hard to find a good school. Many tkd guys are quick to say their school is one of the few hard tkd schools but it's rarely the case. Tkd has potential, but largely the way it's practiced isn't going to prepare you for an aggressive attack. 

Keep in mind "self defense" can mean different things. Imo most who use the term are describing the ability to fight or fight off an attacker. Sparring and resistance training is a big part of being ready to handle an attacker. But a complete self defense curriculum would include situational awareness and avoidance training, and many other non martial components.


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## Earl Weiss (Mar 19, 2015)

IMO
a. It's not the art , it's the school / instructor
b. Don't ask what they teach. They may tell you anything to get you to sign up.
c. Watch 3 classes or so. Watching one may give the wrong impression. You may just happen to come in on the monthly pattern class and think that is all they do.
d. Is what they are teaching what you want to learn? For example, one of the most common initial attacks is a punch to the face.  Are they teaching habits that are useful against this?
e. You don't need to kick very high in a SD situation.


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## kapas (Mar 19, 2015)

so guys thanks a lot for ur help ans opinions, i have aome friends that do taekwondo and i was looking into schools and prices and the one i can afford is 20€ per month 3 or 4 times a week with saturday. They told me that they're school is more a class of competition training but still i will try 2 days of taekwondo on that school cause ita near my house and its cheap. I personaly know the instructor since is a friend of family and i know he have done a lot of competitions whn he was younger, and he is a great fighter and instructor but since he is more focused on the competitive side i dont know if i will like. Today i will try muay thai too, cause a school of muay thai just opened near my house and its 25€ per month so i am interested too! Will see what happen, thank you all of you for the quick response and more opiniona are welcome ! 
Thank you all


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## Instructor (Mar 19, 2015)

Old School TKD is excellent for self defense, it's all about finding the right teacher.  Nowadays it's very hit and miss on school quality.  I still see some very impressive TKD people out there but I also see a lot of stuff that I wouldn't bother with.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2015)

What happened with the Muay Thai?

New to martial arts picking one for self defense MartialTalk.Com - Friendly Martial Arts Forum Community


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## Instructor (Mar 19, 2015)

I think perhaps OP is shopping around so he started similar threads for every art available in his region to see what our responses would be.  Really one thread on them all would have been more efficient.


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## kapas (Mar 19, 2015)

Oh sorry guys, i just started here and in muay thai cause its the 2 i am more willing to practise, i didnt know where do start a topic so im sorry!


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 19, 2015)

Your fine, no worries, I was mostly curious.


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## Manny (Mar 20, 2015)

Well I want to share my experience with TKD in the past and nowdays. My friend if yuo want to learn a martial art for personal defense in mind let me tell you that you will find in almost (and read almost please) TKD dojangs WTF/Olimpic TKD that's good for cardio, good for tournaments, etc,etc because it's focused in the competitive side. Yes this kind of TKD can be efective but it's not designed to fight but for competiton rule set.

My case is apart, and let me tell you why. I Began in mid 80's in a TKD Dojang that focused in ALL not only competition and by miself I have been learning self defense techs in other martial arts like Kenpo karate, Judo and Aikido, no, I am not a self defense guru but I can use my hands,feet,elabows,knees equaly good and I also know how to submite a Bad Guy if need it, but that's because I have learn some moves in other martial arts.

A high Dollyo Chagui in a tourney can give you 3 points but doing the same kick in the steet in street clothes can lead you to dissaster, a nice spining hook kick can give you even a well knock out in the mat but again in ths street if the Bad Guy grab your kick you are done.

However not all it's bad because a good placed round cick aimed to the legs, or a front kick to the blader/groin can be devastating, so kick for street reasons must be aimed low, for the torso/neck/head area the hands are more suiteble been either a karate chop, a fist or open palm strikes.

I think a good martial art to get involved with it is Hap Ki Do, in this MA you will learn very good self defense aplications.

Good luck.

Manny


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## kapas (Mar 20, 2015)

Well, thank you a lot sir for ur opinion! today i went on a taekwondo class and the it was the day of "technique", i will get back there monday cause its a different training and see if i like. I am trying muay thai too and im split between the two martial arts! I dont have Hap Ki Do in Portugal, especially where i leave so im restricted to muay thai and taekwondo. I like the competition side too, but i want to know that even training hard in competition with a martial art, i can be "safe" if i need to use my knowledge earned in the martial art to defend myself if fighting is my only avaiable option. 
Thank you guys, and more opinions are welcome!


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

kapas said:


> Well, thank you a lot sir for ur opinion! today i went on a taekwondo class and the it was the day of "technique", i will get back there monday cause its a different training and see if i like. I am trying muay thai too and im split between the two martial arts! I dont have Hap Ki Do in Portugal, especially where i leave so im restricted to muay thai and taekwondo. I like the competition side too, but i want to know that even training hard in competition with a martial art, i can be "safe" if i need to use my knowledge earned in the martial art to defend myself if fighting is my only avaiable option.
> Thank you guys, and more opinions are welcome!


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Muay Thai is very popular here now in the US.  However, I don't like it.  I would try the TKD or karate first.  Then go to Muay Thai if those are too regimented and seem impractical.  On the TKD, and karate too, beware of the overly-sporty versions which can slide into recreational activity.  This is where critics of TMA's really pounce on the 'mirage' of self defense in TMA.
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good luck.


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## Drose427 (Mar 20, 2015)

kapas said:


> Well, thank you a lot sir for ur opinion! today i went on a taekwondo class and the it was the day of "technique", i will get back there monday cause its a different training and see if i like. I am trying muay thai too and im split between the two martial arts! I dont have Hap Ki Do in Portugal, especially where i leave so im restricted to muay thai and taekwondo. I like the competition side too, but i want to know that even training hard in competition with a martial art, i can be "safe" if i need to use my knowledge earned in the martial art to defend myself if fighting is my only avaiable option.
> Thank you guys, and more opinions are welcome!



Assuming theor both good schools,

Choose whatever feels most comfortable or natural to your body style.

You can train with contact in either, its not difficult at all to find MMA or kickboxing guys who are more than up for sparring with a style they dont usually fight against. This helps prepare them for the ring, and helps you as well in case your TKD school doesnt do a lot of hard contact. You're going to be training outside of the gym anyways after all.

It comes down to how you decide to train, I advocate testing multiple styles because people naturally move differently, fight differently, etc. 

For example, I chose TSD/Taekwondo or our MT school, because I have MT friends, we spar hard in TKD, and what was the most important factor for me, our footwork was a closer match to how I boxed than our MT school, which advocated more planting for kicks.

Had I not already had a light, quick movement fighting style I may have chosen a different art.

Try them both and simply see what works best for your personally, dont let people whisper decisions in your ear. They simply dont have your strengths/weaknesses


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 20, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> ... personally, dont let people whisper decisions in your ear. They simply dont have your strengths/weaknesses


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Don't let people whisper in you ear?  WOAH.  MA is about learning to make your own decisions.
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And I'd really like an answer to my kung fu/ karate vs. boxing post(s) in your role as instructor that you represent here....  NO need to WHISPER...


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## Instructor (Mar 21, 2015)

In many cases this sort of thing is less about style and more about the instructor teaching it.  My advice as always is to find a person who's instruction and ideas resonate with you personally.  My first school was a TKD school back when I didn't really know the differences between the various styles.  But you know the teacher was great and he really taught me some good stuff.  Many of the ideas I learned in that first school I still pass on to others all these years later.  I am still friends with my first teacher and we still talk on a regular basis.  These martial arts relationships can do so much more for you than teaching you to defend yourself.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 21, 2015)

Instructor said:


> In many cases this sort of thing is less about style and more about the instructor teaching it.  My advice as always is to find a person who's instruction and ideas resonate with you personally.  My first school was a TKD school back when I didn't really know the differences between the various styles.  But you know the teacher was great and he really taught me some good stuff....


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It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis.  Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique.  As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:




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EDIT: TKD is not for me.  It's a personal choice.  Take a look @ how the whole curriculum has been structured...others have spoken to this as well.  I give these black-belts "A" for form.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis.  Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique.  As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not sure I would choose that as a good example of step sparring to illustrate what Taekwondo is capable of. They are clearly still at the 'forging' stage. Though the basic technical form is OK if looked at in isolation, the application of technique is in my view highly unrealistic, even as a bridge between basics and freestyle sparring. The distancing is off, the combos are not logical from a cause and effect perspective, blocking with the foot is frankly ludicrous unless it's incidental (although it seems to be a favourite) and the flappy double kicking is superfluous, high risk, and inferior to a single powerful blow. What little close work there is does not disturb the attacker's balance enough to achieve the results shown without a play-along opponent.

There are better examples of Taekwondo close work out there.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Mar 22, 2015)

I feel similarly about 1 step sparrings particularly those using a kick to block a punch.  When I learnt one similar, I thought "jeesh, I hope the kids don't think this is really a way to block a punch."


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## Drose427 (Mar 22, 2015)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I feel similarly about 1 step sparrings particularly those using a kick to block a punch.  When I learnt one similar, I thought "jeesh, I hope the kids don't think this is really a way to block a punch."



Generally this falls into the "test one step" category. Gotta show off flexibility and accuracy, but like you said a good instructor shouldnt let their students think thats really how you should block a punch.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 22, 2015)

I'm not against the idea of using a foot to clear a guard if the opportunity arises, but I don't believe one step is a good place to demonstrate the idea as it is misleading.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 22, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I'm not sure I would choose that as a good example of step sparring to illustrate what Taekwondo is capable of. They are clearly still at the 'forging' stage. Though the basic technical form is OK if looked at in isolation, the application of technique is in my view highly unrealistic, even as a bridge between basics and freestyle sparring.
> |
> Hate to hide behind Funakoshi BUT.... there is a reason for training this traditional way.  If you are a pure reality-TYPE guy and sport-based fighter, then NO, THESE ARE NOT FOR YOU.
> |
> ...


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Again, I can agree with the practical form of the (traditional karate) low block the way it is often demonstrated.  Frankly, the low block (it's form) can get you into as much trouble as it can get you out of.  This concept has also been covered in historic MT Forum posts.
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However, the 1-steps are how I came about to really focus on traditional karate "mental clarity," to borrow the phrase from that T.  KIME is another mental discipline term that applies here.  Of course, if all you can see it Gracie's wiping out strikers like the uke here... then the import of these mental concepts is lost to your type of training....
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The most relevant part of these comments, IMO, is "forging."  And then of course what are poster's defining as such....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 22, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Generally this falls into the "test one step" category. Gotta show off flexibility and accuracy, but like you said a good instructor shouldnt let their students think thats really how you should block a punch.


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Checked out your site.  You hang with some very tough guys.  I think that has stilted your overall conclusions.  I believe it was you who dismissed my Lyoto Machida LOSS vid (without analysis).  So to be fair, I'll be the standup guy and post another Karate vs. MT-Boxing full contact fight vid.



Happens to be Shotokan karate....the karate style people love to hate.  Shotokan guy, this is not UFC but another MMA org, knocks bejisus out of MT opponent...
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You said all TMA fight with hands up guard.  This Shotokan fights with conventional Shotokan kumite hands held low guard.  His opponent holds hand up in typical MT kickboxing fashion, the way you say 'real' blocks work.  Don't work at all for this guy.  So you would be saying that the Shotokan stylist has a 'bad' instructor & the kickboxer has a 'good' instructor.
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And by the way, I'm not saying the hands up guard doesn't work, it just won't work against a dynamic striker....(see footnote)
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AND so begs the question, how did Shotokan guy learn to guard & strike so well.... including the distancing & timing you speak of.  Was it  1-steps or free sparring?
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Footnote: with some qualification of course.


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## Drose427 (Mar 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Checked out your site.  You hang with some very tough guys.  I think that has stilted your overall conclusions.  I think it was you who dismissed my Lyoto Machida LOSS vid (without analysis).  So to be fair, I'll be the standup guy and post another Karate vs. Boxing full contact fight vid.
> 
> 
> ...



1. Machidas hands arent low at all.... Theyre not as tight, but theyre  high enough he could easily block.

2. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.

I never dismissed step sparring in this thread, the closest was commenting how certain onesteps are meant to show case accuracy and flexibility, not be realistic. 

 Nor have I ever said anything bad about any style of Karate. I've defended Karate several times on this site.

I train in both an MMA Gym and a Tang Soo Do School, dont twist my words and make opinions for me.

I dismissed your Machida Loss video because you were using it to implicate Shotokan was weaker than Muay Thai or other striking styles, when Machida has regularly used  Shotokan to KO People from nearly every other striking style imaginable.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 22, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> 1. Machidas hands arent low at all.... Theyre not as tight, but theyre  high enough he could easily block.


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Fair enough.  They are low compared to typical kickboxing guard, IMO.



Drose427 said:


> 2. You're putting a lot of words in my mouth.


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Happens to me all the time too.  Was commented on in the critique T.



Drose427 said:


> I never dismissed step sparring in this thread, the closest was commenting how certain onesteps are meant to show case accuracy and flexibility, not be realistic.


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Now you are guilty.  Certainly the point of my statement was the applicability to fighting, the post & vid are that reality context...



Drose427 said:


> Nor have I ever said anything bad about any style of Karate. I've defended Karate several times on this site.


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I'm talking about some different points of view in a style we both support.  That's a reality.



Drose427 said:


> I train in both an MMA Gym and a Tang Soo Do School, dont twist my words and make opinions for me.


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So that's how you train.  I train differently.  Proves nothing by itself.  I'm a stanch supporter of MMA too.  Said so several time in several posts....  So include my words when you comment.



Drose427 said:


> I dismissed your Machida Loss video because you were using it to implicate Shotokan was weaker than Muay Thai or other striking styles, when Machida has regularly used  Shotokan to KO People from nearly every other striking style imaginable.


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In Your Mind.  And BTW way, karate as seen in MMA, it has been the MT stylists who have dominated Lyoto Machida & Wonderboy Thompson.  *However, don't assume by a style label that I am making style-only conclusion when discussing my proposition.*_  I think, however, the MT vs. Karate makes an interesting thesis.  These two often seen to go head to head....
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The VALID conclusion that can be made from the Lyoto Machida vid is that Lyoto Machida's Karate / MMA is weaker than Shogun Rua's MT.  Proven fact.  It's a launching point for discussion.  Realistically.
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YOu see, you used mental "head movement" to dodge what you thought I was portraying, when my "strike" wasn't what you thought.
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You aren't dealing with a Noob.... that was another play on words, "feint" in boxing lingo.
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Edit: I love Machida.  He's not the last word on traditional karate.  A super vid of Machida @ his best was the Rich Franklin fight.  Rich Franklin was a former UFC champ I believe._


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 22, 2015)

A Lot of Posters here think 1-steps are a limited, physical drills exercise.... I get it....


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## Drose427 (Mar 22, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> A Lot of Posters here think 1-steps are a limited, physical drills exercise.... I get it....



Not a single person has said anything along those lines


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## Gnarlie (Mar 23, 2015)

One steps are a limited exercise by their nature. That doesn't mean they are useless, and that's not what I said.

All I said was the example chosen was not a good one to illustrate close work or good one step.

If it's intended to illustrate flexibility, good. Pure form in isolation, good. Application of taekwondo principles not good, distancing and choice of technique not good, therefore close work not good.

I practice one steps often, as a forging tool for application of principle. Treating one step in this way leads to results very different from those in the video.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Not a single person has said anything along those lines


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I put up some material for discussion.  If you are going to talk in absolutes, then take it or leave it.



Gnarlie said:


> One steps are a limited exercise by their nature. That doesn't mean they are useless, and that's not what I said.
> 
> All I said was the example chosen was not a good one to illustrate close work or good one step.
> 
> ...


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See response(s) to Drose427.  I appreciated your view, I see it in my dojo.  From my perspective, 1-steps are technically limitless....  You don't care for example(s)--OK, the original doubters at my dojo no longer question me....  IMO, 1-steps are NOT an 'isolation" exercise.  But yet again, that's often how they are interpreted.  There's a historic post that speaks to this issue re the Korean karates such as TKD, that leverage off the Shotokan karate curriculum.  Some of the simplifications of the Japanese karates were translated to Korean styles, absent contact with the Okinawan originators of traditional karate.
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Lastly, I AM in concert with your closing sentence, I am NOT with your criticism of the 1-step vid example....
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Thanks for answering....


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 23, 2015)

BY THE WAY:
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There are some very articulate, well written historical articles @ MT re TSD.  Perhaps our new martial artist should refer to those in his decision making.  Drose 427 is also an authority in TSD.  I know I'm going to be looking into them.  My original TMA teacher started in TKD, then moved on to Chinese Kempo, which when I returned had been transformed into an Okinawan or Japanese kenop style.  So a measure of cross-pollination in my karate style, if you will....


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## Drose427 (Mar 23, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> I put up some material for discussion.  If you are going to talk in absolutes, then take it or leave it.
> 
> 
> ...



You are the only one dealing with absolutes


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## Manny (Mar 23, 2015)

One steps are tools only, they are not self defense per se, one stapes and three steps are prearranged motions/tecnikes, very basics. 

Manny


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## Mephisto (Mar 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis.  Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique.  As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:
> 
> 
> ...


If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 24, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.


As I said, it's not a good example.  It is inaccurate to assume that this is what applied Taekwondo self defence actually looks like, and perhaps unwise to write off the whole art of Taekwondo based on that assumption.


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## Mephisto (Mar 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> As I said, it's not a good example.  It is inaccurate to assume that this is what applied Taekwondo self defence actually looks like, and perhaps unwise to write off the whole art of Taekwondo based on that assumption.


Believe me, I don't base my thoughts on tkd from this video alone, it just further confirms my bias. I've done plenty of looking into tkd and trained with many tkd practitioners, some of them very good fighters, most of them not. Tkd has potential but the bad schools vastly outnumber the good and if someone who doesn't know anything martial arts is looking for a school statistically they are more likely to find bad tkd than good, so I recommend tkd be avoided in such cases. But if you just want to get active any school may be fine, I'm talking self defense and fighting ability here. "Good and "bad" are relative terms.


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## ShotoNoob (Mar 25, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> If we're talking self defense, this video is exactly why I'd avoid tkd. As has been mentioned blocking punches with feet is a terrible idea. I'm not a fan of steps though. Some FMA schools work their stick and blade counters in a similiar way, I'm not a fan. In most cases you're ready for the attack, you know what's coming, and only one strike is thrown and the attacker freezes. These drills might have some value at a basic level but I think they're a waste of time for an advanced students.


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I think such is problematic too.  Maybe why that's why the Okinawan styles of karate (as a general rule) are hand-centered.  I know I'm way better with hands than feet.  We've got a number of members of our school who excel at feet.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Believe me, I don't base my thoughts on tkd from this video alone, it just further confirms my bias. I've done plenty of looking into tkd and trained with many tkd practitioners, some of them very good fighters, most of them not. Tkd has potential but the bad schools vastly outnumber the good and if someone who doesn't know anything martial arts is looking for a school statistically they are more likely to find bad tkd than good, so I recommend tkd be avoided in such cases. But if you just want to get active any school may be fine, I'm talking self defense and fighting ability here. "Good and "bad" are relative terms.



That doesn't reflect my experience at all. Then again, I'm not in the US and I look for clubs with a strong and obvious link to Kukkiwon. But that's not hard to find. I have yet to find a 'bad' TKD school. I'm not sure you can really use the word 'statistically' when generalising based on personal experience.


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> That doesn't reflect my experience at all. Then again, I'm not in the US and I look for clubs with a strong and obvious link to Kukkiwon. But that's not hard to find. I have yet to find a 'bad' TKD school. I'm not sure you can really use the word 'statistically' when generalising based on personal experience.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


I think I can use the terminology that tkd is statistically bad for self defense and fighting. At least in the United states it's a reality, it may be different in your country but over here it's an accurate statement.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

So it's not Taekwondo that's bad, but the way it is trained local to you. Taekwondo is what it is, just because it's trained one way local to you doesn't change the truth of what it actually is. It seems that TKD in the US compared to internationally represents a rather different and misleading picture of Taekwondo as a martial art, so generalisations based on local experiences are also likely to be misleading.


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> So it's not Taekwondo that's bad, but the way it is trained local to you. Taekwondo is what it is, just because it's trained one way local to you doesn't change the truth of what it actually is. It seems that TKD in the US compared to internationally represents a rather different and misleading picture of Taekwondo as a martial art, so generalisations based on local experiences are also likely to be misleading.


If by "local" you mean as a national trend. I still stand by my statements, if a friend of mine in this country were considering tkd for self defense, id tell him to consider another style because statistically in this country tkd is overrun with glorified daycares and mcdojos. 

I Can't speak about tkd overseas but  I'm not certain it's better, but I won't go as far to say something I'm not certain of. I've talked to more than few guys in the states that think their tkd school is one of the few strong schools only to learn otherwise myself. Obviously these guys are biased, maybe you are too.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> If by "local" you mean as a national trend. I still stand by my statements, if a friend of mine in this country were considering tkd for self defense, id tell him to consider another style because statistically in this country tkd is overrun with glorified daycares and mcdojos.
> 
> I Can't speak about tkd overseas but  I'm not certain it's better, but I won't go as far to say something I'm not certain of. I've talked to more than few guys in the states that think their tkd school is one of the few strong schools only to learn otherwise myself. Obviously these guys are biased, maybe you are too.



You realise there are 4343 Kukkiwon registered dojangs just in America, right? And many many more non-registered and from other types of TKD. Are you sure your sample size is statistically significant enough to assign the confidence interval you seem to be assigning? And to extrapolate on a global scale?

I make no claim about my own school, I'm just saying that how Taekwondo is taught and trained at whichever schools you may have visited has no bearing on what the art actually is, and the art is there to be found for those who want to look.


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> You realise there are 4343 Kukkiwon registered dojangs just in America, right? And many many more non-registered and from other types of TKD. Are you sure your sample size is statistically significant enough to assign the confidence interval you seem to be assigning? And to extrapolate on a global scale?
> 
> I make no claim about my own school, I'm just saying that how Taekwondo is taught and trained at whichever schools you may have visited has no bearing on what the art actually is, and the art is there to be found for those who want to look.


Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?


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## Gnarlie (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?


I am less likely to be wrong because I am not generalising based a sample I am talking specifics as they are taught at the source. 

I am talking about the true nature of the art as practiced and disseminated by the leaders of the Kukkiwon. I am close enough to the core of Taekwondo to understand what the art is, without having to look at it through the lens filter of bad teaching.

And my experience is that as an art, TKD is technically just fine for self defence purposes.


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## Drose427 (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Yes, I'm sure. My thoughts and opinions are confirmed by other critical minded martial artists as well. You don't have to agree though. Your own thoughts and opinions are equally likely to be wrong and incorrect, how's my schools have you visited? How many practitioners of tkd have you met? Surely not enough to make an opinion on the whole art of tkd?




Like? Professional fighters have stood up for TKD, not to mention the Korean military and LE.....

Uninformed or uneducated opinions arent statistical data. In the few years ive been on this site, ive seen many many people try to say a style is bad, when they knew nothing about the style. Theyre arguments were just "oh i saw a video where the title said one was tkd" or "ive heard". Thats like saying, "Chevys are bad because i saw a video break down and my friend didnt like it" Theres nothing factual or statistical about it

How many TKD schools or students have you actually met and trained with?


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Like? Professional fighters have stood up for TKD, not to mention the Korean military and LE.....
> 
> Uninformed or uneducated opinions arent statistical data. In the few years ive been on this site, ive seen many many people try to say a style is bad, when they knew nothing about the style. Theyre arguments were just "oh i saw a video where the title said one was tkd" or "ive heard". Thats like saying, "Chevys are bad because i saw a video break down and my friend didnt like it" Theres nothing factual or statistical about it
> 
> How many TKD schools or students have you actually met and trained with?


Who knows how many tkders I've met, how many have you met? In the us tkd is one of the most widespread and popular arts, it's also notorious for mcdojos. You can argue if you want but I'm not gonna agree with you. I'm not saying it's all bad everywhere, but your average tkd school that you'll find in your average us town is probably a mcdojos and not geared toward self defense or fighting ability.


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## Drose427 (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Who knows how many tkders I've met, how many have you met? In the us tkd is one of the most widespread and popular arts, it's also notorious for mcdojos. You can argue if you want but I'm not gonna agree with you. I'm not saying it's all bad everywhere, but your average tkd school that you'll find in your average us town is probably a mcdojos and not geared toward self defense or fighting ability.



Nor is your average BJJ school.....or Boxing gym.... 

Its all unfounded generalizations..You dont have to agree, but your argument is very flawed.


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## Mephisto (Mar 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Nor is your average BJJ school.....or Boxing gym....
> 
> Its all unfounded generalizations..You dont have to agree, but your argument is very flawed.


Well I see your argument as flawed. Are you located in the us? Are you aware of the prominence of mcdojos? These are not unfounded accusations, there are many practitioners that agree with me. You're taking this too personally.


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## Drose427 (Mar 27, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> Well I see your argument as flawed. Are you located in the us? Are you aware of the prominence of mcdojos? These are not unfounded accusations, there are many practitioners that agree with me. You're taking this too personally.



I am on the US, I hear it all the time. 

9 times out of 10  from people using excuses such as "I saw it online" or "I knew a guy" who've had very limited exposure. Hell, half the TKD guys in kickboxing in MMA who still strike like TKD guys went to Sport Schools folks with limited exposure call "McDojos" 

In fact there was Korean TKD champ who competed in K1 about a year or two ago, and won his match using TKD....Didnt even bother with punching much.

Annthony Pettis, Henderson, Silva, and especially Cung Le all have a blatant TKD base and use very obvious TKD techs....Cung Le particularly wrecked his opponents using Kukki style fighting. Which isnt odd considering many, many Kukki TKD guys keep their hands up at about chest level just like he tends to..

If TKD is so shoddy its a little odd so many professional fighters regularly train and recommend it isnt it?

You realize theres a big issue with low quality, overpriced BJJ too right? Folks just trying to capitalize on sport without ever putting any emphasis on SD. Hell, our local gyms dont talk about SD at all, the one that does 2 towns over does so in passing but according to the guys there its not SD but just an extra hour of rolling. If you expose yourself to enough BJJ schools, you'll know this is pretty bad right now.

There are a heck of a lot of shoddy boxing gyms too, go to amateur events enough and it becomes apparent when their guys become punching bags. Trainers say its the fighters fault, and the fighter buys it.

Kukki TKD schools get called Mcdojos everyday because many train for sport.....that does not make a school a McDojo.

ITF schools frequently get called McDojo, but the Korean Military and in some places LE's havent had any issue with it. 

You could claim that the majority of Traditional schools are Mcdojos, but the folks who use it in SD as anecdotes aside, theres quite literally thousands out there and you have no proof aside from opinions.


I never called them accusations, but when its nothing more then generalized personal opinions, usually from people with very little actual exposure and zero TKD training of any kind, its hardly a solid argument...

I guess I can go ahead and not recommend BJJ anymore since there are so many sport oriented schools......

See my point?


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## Gnarlie (Mar 28, 2015)

Advising a beginner to avoid Taekwondo because your localised experiences of it have been negative is like saying:

"Don't buy a German car, I had a ride in a second hand Trabant once and the driver was awful. My experience was awful therefore all German cars, in fact all cars, and all people who drive cars, are awful..."

If you need me, I'll be over here metaphorically working for BMW. 

I would advise a beginner to spend a bit of time researching the right vehicle to buy.


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## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> I am on the US, I hear it all the time.
> 
> 9 times out of 10  from people using excuses such as "I saw it online" or "I knew a guy" who've had very limited exposure. Hell, half the TKD guys in kickboxing in MMA who still strike like TKD guys went to Sport Schools folks with limited exposure call "McDojos"
> 
> ...


I'm aware there are some sketchy guys involved in bjj, and they are usually outed and widely criticized by the bjj community, which does a good job policing itself. Recently a lot of controversy surrounded a bjj school that gave a teen a bb, many in the community were outraged. Bjj can be pricey too, I'll give you that. But your average bjj schools will afford a certain level of quality. Generally a blue or purple belt will be able to handle a lower belt or any guy off the street, of course exceptions apply. I'm not going to debate sport bjj with you, I think it has a lot more value for self defense than kata and one steps.

Boxing can have its issues too but generally boxers will experienced fighting an aggressive opponent which offers a lot of value when it comes to preparing for self defense. Cardio gums like "title" boxing clubs are expensive, don't spar, and should be avoided, but they are the minority in the boxing world. 

Again I'm not saying all tkd is bad and that some athletes haven't used it successfully. But if you go up to your local tkd school chances are it's a mcdojo.


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## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Advising a beginner to avoid Taekwondo because your localised experiences of it have been negative is like saying:
> 
> "Don't buy a German car, I had a ride in a second hand Trabant once and the driver was awful. My experience was awful therefore all German cars, in fact all cars, and all people who drive cars, are awful..."
> 
> ...


I'm not talking about my localized experiences, I'm talking about a trend in tkd across the country.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2015)

The TKD I've seen here is what I'd call 'proper' martial arts, I have trained it a bit with a friend who is a TKD instructor. They seem to do everything I've ever done in a martial arts class albeit with differences in the way they do techniques. Too many high kicks for me personally with my old knees but well taught and practical. Demos I've seen tend to be the sports/Olympic variety, again not my thing but if it's yours they work hard and don't appear to be teaching rubbish to rake in money.
McDojos aren't always bad, they can be out for the money but many do actually give value back with good classes, good instructors and good techniques. The black belt clubs, childcare etc is extraneous but doesn't mean that the main classes aren't good. There is a huge tendency among some martial artists to look down on anyone who tries to earn a living at teaching martial arts, as if it's somehow less honourable than teaching for little or no monetary fees. There are places that will fleece you but they can be any or even no style, automatically panning TKD is just silly. 
The best advice is to go look at clubs/schools of any style you like the look of and even have a look at those you don't like the look of! Get a feel for the teaching, the atmosphere and the students and see how you feel about it.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> I'm not talking about my localized experiences, I'm talking about a trend in tkd across the country.


How do you qualify that it actually is a trend across the country? What is your sample size? How many of those 4000+ Kukkiwon registered dojangs have you personally visited and trained at for more than a couple of sessions?

For every strip mall McDojang you might have driven past / heard about through a friend's brother's cousin, there may well be ten others behind closed doors off the main street that you're not aware of. You don't know what you don't know - so what evidence are you basing this supposed trend upon? 

The thing is, the bad examples get a disproportionate amount of publicity.

It's easy enough to find a club with strong links to the Kukkiwon and or one of the Korean universities, if you want to train good, solid, well taught Taekwondo. If you wander into any old storefront, then I wouldn't expect too much, but I would also say that what is being taught may have deviated from what Taekwondo actually is.


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## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> If you wander into any old storefront, then I wouldn't expect too much, but I would also say that what is being taught may have deviated from what Taekwondo actually is.


My point exactly, if you wander into any old tkd school, there's no guarantee of quality. Just as I haven't visited every tkd school, neither have you. We may just have to agree to disagree here. I'll continue to have my reservations about commercial tkd but things may be changing.


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## Tez3 (Mar 29, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> if you wander into any old tkd school, there's no guarantee of quality



That's going to be true of most things in life, wander in anywhere you won't know what you are getting, however it could be the journey of a lifetime.
I think you are generalising and possibly giving many people you don't know a bad name. Why not accept that there's good and bad everywhere, caveat emptor after all.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 29, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> My point exactly, if you wander into any old school, there's no guarantee of quality.



Fixed that for you.


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## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> That's going to be true of most things in life, wander in anywhere you won't know what you are getting, however it could be the journey of a lifetime.
> I think you are generalising and possibly giving many people you don't know a bad name. Why not accept that there's good and bad everywhere, caveat emptor after all.


As I've said multiple times in this thread, I agree, there is good tkd to be had. But you average tkd school? Not a good place to seek self defense and fighting ability.


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## Mephisto (Mar 29, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Fixed that for you.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


To draw firm your earlier examples, go to any boxing school. There will be students who regularly spar. Even in a boxing school with s losing record, you'll find guys that spar. Go to any bjj school and you'll find guys who roll with resisting opponents regularly. In the lowest denominators you have blue and purple belts claiming higher rank, but they could still out grapple most people with no bjj training.

Now go to a tkd school. You may find light contact or no contact sparring, said school may not spar at all. You'll see child black belts, accelerated black belt club programs. Time is spent on kata and theory. How does the fitness level of students at your average tkd school compare to the boxing school? How much weight does the rank carry compared to a bjj school? 

Like I said, there is potential in tkd but the commercialized aspect of the art hinders it as a system. You have to be objective when considering a school. I could link my local tkd schools and no one would be impressed. I have criticisms of my own FMA system, and I surely don't think all the schools associated with it are of superior quality. That doesn't matter to me, I see the deficiencies and make sure I do better. Just be honest and admit tkd has a trend lackluster schools in the commercial martial arts market and do what you can to separate what you do from that.


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## TrueJim (Mar 29, 2015)

Just an aside...in the area where I live (northern Virginia) the whole "McDojo" thing seems to apply as much to karate as it does taekwondo. We have a _ton_ of karate schools around here that offer after-school and summer-camp programs for children. Some of those karate schools have good reputations, some...not-so-good. My point is, this phenomenon isn't unique to taekwondo, I think.

The other martial arts are generally less well-represented around here; the majority of the schools are karate and taekwondo. But even the jiu jitsu, wushu, krav maga, etc. schools that we do have...they all offer kids classes.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 30, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> To draw firm your earlier examples, go to any boxing school. There will be students who regularly spar. Even in a boxing school with s losing record, you'll find guys that spar. Go to any bjj school and you'll find guys who roll with resisting opponents regularly. In the lowest denominators you have blue and purple belts claiming higher rank, but they could still out grapple most people with no bjj training.



My TKD experience is that people who attend Kukki TKD schools can spar. fitness level may vary because Taekwondo is an inclusive art, but the mid-grade guys can still spar at least competently, and spar regularly.



Mephisto said:


> Now go to a tkd school. You may find light contact or no contact sparring, said school may not spar at all.



Does not reflect my experience of any Taekwondo school I have ever visited.


Mephisto said:


> You'll see child black belts, accelerated black belt club programs.



Never seen this in person either.


Mephisto said:


> Time is spent on kata and theory.



No it isn't, time is spent on poomsae and theory. Time is spent on theory in any martial art, including boxing and BJJ. Poomsae is the core of the art on which sparring is built and from which self defence principles are extracted.. You clearly don't understand that much about Taekwondo - so why spout off about it?


Mephisto said:


> How does the fitness level of students at your average tkd school compare to the boxing school?



Just fine in my experience. In fact, in many cases exceptionally well.


Mephisto said:


> How much weight does the rank carry compared to a bjj school?



Depends wholly on the club and instructor. In both arts.


Mephisto said:


> Like I said, there is potential in tkd but the commercialized aspect of the art hinders it as a system. You have to be objective when considering a school. I could link my local tkd schools and no one would be impressed. I have criticisms of my own FMA system, and I surely don't think all the schools associated with it are of superior quality. That doesn't matter to me, I see the deficiencies and make sure I do better. Just be honest and admit tkd has a trend lackluster schools in the commercial martial arts market and do what you can to separate what you do from that.



That's exactly what I am doing here- you are making broad sweeping statements about Taekwondo, and I am differentiating Kukki Taekwondo from that. I just don't believe it is a national or global trend, when there are so many positive examples of Taekwondo out there, and my not inconsiderable experience of training Taekwondo in different countries does not reflect your generalisations at all.



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## Jaeimseu (Mar 30, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> My TKD experience is that people who attend Kukki TKD schools can spar. fitness level may vary because Taekwondo is an inclusive art, but the mid-grade guys can still spar at least competently, and spar regularly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To be fair to Mephisto, I can see how someone in the US could come to the conclusion that he has. I've seen some very good schools, Kukkiwon and otherwise, but I've seen lots of questionable schools, too. I've seen too many supposedly Kukkiwon schools doing very in-Kukkiwon-like Taekwondo. That said, the U.S. is a very large country and every region is different. The area I lived in was very weak on Kukkiwon taekwondo.


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## Tez3 (Mar 30, 2015)

Mephisto said:


> As I've said multiple times in this thread, I agree, there is good tkd to be had. But you average tkd school? Not a good place to seek self defense and fighting ability.




And again how do you know that? You been to the UK, Europe, Australia, South America, Asia especially Korea? You haven't been to many clubs in North America even. You simply don't know that.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 30, 2015)

Jaeimseu said:


> To be fair to Mephisto, I can see how someone in the US could come to the conclusion that he has. I've seen some very good schools, Kukkiwon and otherwise, but I've seen lots of questionable schools, too. I've seen too many supposedly Kukkiwon schools doing very in-Kukkiwon-like Taekwondo. That said, the U.S. is a very large country and every region is different. The area I lived in was very weak on Kukkiwon taekwondo.



And I believe you have visited those schools that you speak of, and you're not speaking of anything on a national or global trend level. Yes there are weak schools out there, but I do not believe that they are in a majority and I also don't believe there is a downward trend. Quite the opposite thanks to NGBs and an established seminar structure.

The in-Kukkiwon-like schools you saw under the Kukkiwon banner will not sustain in the long term under an NGB structure because the grading and seminar requirements are becoming ever more stringent.

To advise someone new against choosing Taekwondo as an art on the grounds of a flawed generalisation based on personal experience is in my view somewhat unfair.

Just like every other art, it totally depends on the individual instructor.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 30, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> And I believe you have visited those schools that you speak of, and you're not speaking of anything on a national or global trend level. Yes there are weak schools out there, but I do not believe that they are in a majority and I also don't believe there is a downward trend. Quite the opposite thanks to NGBs and an established seminar structure.
> 
> To advise someone new against choosing Taekwondo as an art on the grounds of a flawed generalisation based on personal experience is in my view somewhat unfair.
> 
> ...


I agree. Advising against TKD is taking things a bit far, unless you are looking for a particular skill not found in TKD.


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## Instructor (Mar 30, 2015)

As a general statement; any system, style, art, or organization can have good and bad schools.  It's best to judge each individual teacher and school on it's own merits or lack thereof.


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## RobBnTX (Apr 24, 2015)

Of course it is more about the instructor and the what and how he/she teaches.  Having said that I have observed some really good classes that I think over time with a lot of training would provide someone with the knowledge and ability to defend themselves if it came down to a situation that you just had to fight your way out of.

The schools in my area I think that would fit that description are a local Wado-ryu school, a local Isshin-ryu school, and a local Tang Soo Do school.  Again, with lots of training and practice and it takes time!

There is an EBMAS Wing Tzun school that I tried out and it may be good for some people and it has an all around approach, that is they cover a lot of real life scenarios in their curriculum and it is suppose to get you to where you can defend yourself with some confidence in a relative short amount of time compared to other arts, usually six months or so but it takes years to finish and perfect their curriculum, but I just kept thinking someone with really good TKD skills would blow right through their techniques.  Although they do move around and teach you how to shift around your opponent, it just seemed way too flat footed and static to me compared to TKD.

I like TKD for the cardio workout as in my old age I have developed a bit of a weight problem, after being thin my whole life!  *Some *of the HoSin Sul self-defense techniques that I have been taught in various TKD schools though seem somewhat unrealistic to me.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 24, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> It's important to look at school's on a case by case basis.  Here's a clip of TKD self defense, including hands and in-close technique.  As opposed to the sporting, kicking only conventions so often seen:
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.

I _will_ say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at _least_ a foot short of contact. (In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.) The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.

Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.


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## Drose427 (Apr 24, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.
> 
> I _will_ say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at _least_ a foot short of contact. (In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.) The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.
> 
> Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.



For many schools, this specific drill is more for beginners, and testing new things.

I will say,  that how theyre doing it (the distancing, the punch not being a full speed/power punch, etx.) Would be considered wrong at my association and theyd get a talkin to


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not going to offer an opinion on the quality of the "average" TKD school. I haven't visited enough of them to claim that I've examined a statistically significant sample.


|
I haven't done a scientific study either.  I basically went / go around to the TMA schools in my area & observe....  the TKD schools in my area tend to be more 'sporty' than this, or for the recreational student.  Still, there are some good TKD stylists around me.



Tony Dismukes said:


> I _will_ say that this clip is an example of something I've seen in some TKD schools that would be an immediate red flag and would cause me to look elsewhere if I were looking for a dojang.


|
No, by my traditional karate standards, these guys are pretty good.  I disagree.


Tony Dismukes said:


> 1. In these one-step drills, the "attacker" is too far away. If the "defender" just stood still, the attacker's fully extended punch would come up at _least_ a foot short of contact.  In some cases it's more like two feet short of contact.)
> 2. The defender's defenses, footwork, and counterattacks are all based on that unrealistic distancing and would fail miserably if the attack was real.
> 3. Hopefully this sort of thing isn't the norm in TKD schools, but I have seen it before in more than one dojang.


Answer:
|
#3. I did #3 first.  Actually, you are right (in my mind) for pointing out some discrepancies.  The way I look at this is that there is actually a whole series of dynamics going on in 1-steps.  Slop or inaccuracies in perfect form are bound to exist or creep in.  Moreover, I don't see these as a huge problem because  a real-time contest has all kinds of variations one has to adjust to as well.  The 1-steps are really dominant action on the part of the defender so I just keep that overall perspective and the value of the exercise is then never lost.
|
#1. If the simulation of contact is the working objective, I stipulate to your correction.  There are several working objectives of 1-steps.  The more important working objectives concern KIME the part of the defender.
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#2. I don't get your objection here.  All you do is state a conclusion?  the distancing is 'unrealistic.'  How so?  the defenses / footwork / counterattacks are based on 'unrealistic' distancing??? Why?
|
Incidentally, _distancing_ is often used to describe sparring ranges which to me is often sport fighting vernacular....  In traditional karate, _transitioning_ is the preferred term to describe karateka movements.

Thanks for the quote/ reply.  Yet we are looking @ 1 steps through different martial glasses....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> For many schools, this specific drill is more for beginners, and testing new things.


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Not by traditional karate standards.  1-steps are teaching a very sophisticated set of skills, particularly the Japanese karate version of KIME.  At higher levels of skill, the Okinawan karate version of KIME takes a front seat.



Drose427 said:


> I will say,  that how theyre doing it (the distancing, the punch not being a full speed/power punch, etx.) Would be considered wrong at my association and theyd get a talkin to


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Where did you get the idea that traditional karate exercises are practiced routinely at full power, full speed?  This is completely wrong.
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Can one practice @ full power / speed? Sure.  But this is testing mode.  Not traditional karate training mode....


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## Drose427 (Apr 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> Not by traditional karate standards.  1-steps are teaching a very sophisticated set of skills, particularly the Japanese karate version of KIME.  At higher levels of skill, the Okinawan karate version of KIME takes a front seat.
> 
> 
> ...



Theyre done full speed, realistic power in my association (10 schools), the local Shorin Association(2 schools), and nearly all of the schools Karate or TKD I've visited or trained with students with.

Ive seen leniency on power/speed at test (although its frowned upon) but NEVER during regular training. 

Doing them improperly or without the danger of "if i dont react properly this will hurt" during regular training is gonna give you a false sense of security. 

Its how my KJN trained during the beginning years of our style and its how we will continue to teach.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> #2. I don't get your objection here. All you do is state a conclusion? the distancing is 'unrealistic.' How so? the defenses / footwork / counterattacks are based on 'unrealistic' distancing??? Why?



As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did  nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.

Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.

For example, look at the first sequence. The defender parries the punch with a crescent kick that connects at a point when the attackers arm is almost completely extended, yet the fist is about 2 feet short of the supposed target. If the attacker had been in range, that punch would have already connected with the defenders face (timing). The kick would have been at the wrong angle to connect with the punching arm. The follow-up side kick would have been at the wrong angle and range to connect.

Sequence # 2 has the same issues, but in addition the step forward to apply the final hand techniques is unnecessary, because the opponent would already be at close range. Same with sequence #3.

In sequence #4, the defender has to make a big step forward in order to connect with the attackers arm on his block/grab. If the attacker had been close enough to connect with his punch and the defender made the same step forward with the same timing, then the x-block would have connected with the attackers ribs while the attackers fist landed on the defenders face. The arm grab would definitely not be happening.

I have no problem with simplified exercises like one-steps. I have no problem with practicing moves at less than full speed and power. (Not always, but it has its place.)  I have a big problem with practicing using incorrect distancing. Distancing is one of the most important aspects of combat no matter what the context.



ShotoNoob said:


> Incidentally, _distancing_ is often used to describe sparring ranges which to me is often sport fighting vernacular.... In traditional karate, _transitioning_ is the preferred term to describe karateka movements.



Distancing is in no way limited to sport fighting. If you can't reach me, you can't hurt me. That's a fundamental reality whether you're in the ring, on the street, or on a medieval battlefield.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Theyre done full speed, realistic power in my association (10 schools), the local Shorin Association(2 schools), and nearly all of the schools Karate or TKD I've visited or trained with students with.
> 
> Ive seen leniency on power/speed at test (although its frowned upon) but NEVER during regular training.
> 
> ...


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There's any number of vids posted by others here @ MT on Okinawan karate.  What you say is not how they are training in class....
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I have never been in a traditional martial arts class of any kind where the practitioners are routinely going full power.


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## Drose427 (Apr 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> There's any number of vids posted by others here @ MT on Okinawan karate.  What you say is not how they are training in class....
> |
> I have never been in a traditional martial arts class of any kind where the practitioners are routinely going full power.



Ive also seen many Okinawan Karate and TKD/TSD practitioners here agree with me on this, distance and a realstic punch are the two most important factors. If youre training against something drastically different, you wont learn to defend yourself against a punch. Which is the entire point of one step.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> #1. As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did  nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.
> 
> Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.
> 
> ...


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Wow, that's a long reply.  Let me say  @ the outset you are more technically concentrated than I.  I focus more on principles.  So there is a different in thought process...
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Tony, thanks for that detailed description OF #1.  I'll try to respond directly.


Tony Dismukes said:


> #1A. As I said, the attacker is stepping and throwing the punch at a range such that if the defender did  nothing and stood absolutely still, the attack would end up 1-2 feet short of contact at full extension.
> 
> Training against an "attack" that is this far out of range affects everything. It affects timing. It affects angling. It affects footwork. It affects what defenses will work.


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Reply to #1A: Yes, I stipulated as to practicing for actual contact, that working objective was NOT met by the attackers form.
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And yes, it affects all the physical dimensions of the physical confrontation.  In particular, iT will affect what will work.  I think the first advantage I SEE TO THIS 1-step exercise, is just as you noted, the opponent is too far away to do any actual damage.  That principle is made plain by the attacker's failure to close properly.  This is one of the great lessons of 1 steps....
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So, If I as the defender am paying attention, I really don't have to do anything.... do I?


Tony Dismukes said:


> #1B. For example, look at the first sequence. The defender parries the punch with a crescent kick that connects at a point when the attackers arm is almost completely extended, yet the fist is about 2 feet short of the supposed target.
> |
> If the attacker had been in range, that punch would have already connected with the defenders face (timing). The kick would have been at the wrong angle to connect with the punching arm. The follow-up side kick would have been at the wrong angle and range to connect.


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Reply to #1B: You are saying the attacker has thrown the punch too soon.  I got that.  However, isn't the point, not to jump to your next sentence, to execute the kick so it blocks the punch?  The defender does that.  That is the technical working objective of defending against the strike first.  The defender did that and so did accomplish that working objective.  The problem of the attacker being out of position to hit..Still a problem from a contact standpoint... I can see that.  From my view, the technical block-defense of the punch got achieved, we still have the attacker punch thrown "too soon" for realism re a competent punch.
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Here's where I get what you are saying.  That once we fix attacker from throwing the punch from out-of-range, he's in too close for the distance & the  timing of the crescent kick to work.  I can see the problem.  I could agree that a crescent kick might not be the best technique here.
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My comeback is the larger working objective is, given the structure of the exercise technically, to block a hand strike with a kick, here a crescent kick.  The working objective is to develop the ability to block an incoming punch with a crescent kick.  So, the problem statement becomes how do you make the adjustments to do that?  Here the attacker cooperated by stopping short of striking distance.  Criticism aside, that then is the correct zone in which to kick.  So the proper striking zone identified so was accomplished.  That's what I learned.
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If the opponent had closed to punching contact distance, then I would be faced with another KIME.  What to do, how to adjust to pull off, according to the structure of the exercise, a successful crescent kick.  That's how i would look @ the exercise.
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On the follow up kick, of course it will be wrong under your scenario.  For the technical working objective of the exercise, on how to actually block a punch with a crescent kick & follow up, it will be technically right.
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CONSIDER: There might be scenarios where a punch is thrown outside of contact range.  Instead of getting fixated on the exact form of the attack, presumably a punch to the face as you noted, why not look at it as a striking motion on the part of the attacker.  It might be a feint. It might be a hand waving with a stick or club.  It might the grappler reaching forward for that takedown so many here have said is unstoppable (not in my book).  Of course, it could be a mistake in timing & distance on the part of the attacker.  It could be a distracting jab to be followed by a straight punch combo.  that's how i look @ it.  in a dynamic KIME way.  So by the overriding principle of KIME, the physical attributes fall down in ranking and the exercise is still valuable.....
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So under KIME, we have some realism problems with the exercise as precisely shown.  Attacker throws the punch outside of striking range.  Several other working objectives, however, are met, if we think of 1-steps as KIME.  I'll propose a solution in my next post....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> #1. Ive also seen many Okinawan Karate and TKD/TSD practitioners here agree with me on this, distance and a realstic punch are the two most important factors.
> #2. If youre training against something drastically different, you wont learn to defend yourself against a punch.
> #3. Which is the entire point of one step.


#1. Yes. you know what style is notoriously often in agreement with your position?  Shotokan.  That's one of the big sins of Shotokan as often practiced, IMO.  The Master I am currently working with was originally more along your lines.  Until I started demonstrating to him otherwise.
It's better to work smart in traditional karate than maximize physical output.  One of the huge lessons in kata.
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#2. Completely disagree.  Learning to block a punch or any assault in traditional karate is a (your) mental discipline process.  The physical action of your opponent only sets the stage for you to act physically--always controlled mentally.
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Your criticism is completely correct for McDojo practitioners who do karate with brain off.  The when someone throws a real punch, their OFF-BRAIN can't react at all and they can't defend as you say.  They get clocked.
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#3.  To be correct, your final sentence should read, "Which is the entire APPLIED point of the one step."  To be globally correct by traditional karate, the point of the one step is too develop the mental discipline that direct's your physical conditioning for choice of the proper tactic done in the proper way at the proper time that disables the opponent quickly & efficiently...


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

SO, GIVEN TONY D.'S CRITICISM OF TKD 1-STEP #1 / HOW DO WE FIX IT.
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I choose a Tang Soo Do 1-step illustration.  Tang Soo Do, apparently patterned off of Shotokan, is somewhat more relaxed in practice it seems.  Take  a look at this "Super-Simpleton Karate:"




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There's no opponent here, so we have to do everything our self.  Keeping with standard karate 1-step form, attacker steps in a punches to face--assume Tony that the puncher does this competently so defender must take action.  What is defender's response?
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Defender doesn't stand still.   Defender takes a step back (kinda of a side to back stance) to try to avoid getting hit.  That's not all.  Defender's defense is actually too pronged--left hand knifehand block, kind of a softer parry type of block.
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Once replanted in stance, counter upper cut to attacker's open tummy.  Of course we have the same question that Tony raised, here the defender, is the uppercut in position to connect?
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The global 1-step answer is KIME.
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MMA Applicablity:  Note the Tang Soo Do Master doesn't back peddle like Machida & Liddell, circle way out & around upon the attacker's approach.  She does something quite different.
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PostNote: The defender's defense is actually 3-pronged.  Moreover, there is a second tactical advantage, working objective achieved by her defensive posture which was also demonstrated yet not commented on in the 2 criticisms of my TKD crescent kick 1-step vid.  Gee, not so "simpleton karate" after all....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

THIS IS WHAT TRADITIONAL KARATE HAS TO OFFER.  And it's not just knowing the physical.....




>Here's where I'm going (theatrics aside).  These guys are driven by mental discipline.  Their kata is not a physical gym routine.  It's mind & body unison, with the mind exerting complete mental discipline over their physical actions....


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## Drose427 (Apr 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> SO, GIVEN TONY D.'S CRITICISM OF TKD 1-STEP #1 / HOW DO WE FIX IT.
> |
> I choose a Tang Soo Do 1-step illustration.  Tang Soo Do, apparently patterned off of Shotokan, is somewhat more relaxed in practice it seems.  Take  a look at this "Super-Simpleton Karate:"
> 
> ...



Shes demonstrating one particular move,  you really cant extrapolate the points you made from that. 

You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

In response to criticism of their physical form not being "practical" AKA kickboxing, sport karate, etc, that's not what they are doing.  Their physical form builds, facilities, and executes mental discipline.  That's where the power & effectiveness of traditional karate comes from.....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Shes demonstrating one particular move,  you really cant extrapolate the points you made from that.


|
No, YOU can't.  I can.
|


Drose427 said:


> You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step


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Physical form is static.  Principles are fluid.  Ippon Kumite is not physical form.  Doing physical form is athletics.  Doing physical form is sports.  Ippon Kumite demonstrates not physical form,  it demonstrates fighting principles....  Ippon Kumite is an exercise in mental discipline.  Specifically, Ippon Kumite centers on KIME.


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## Drose427 (Apr 27, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> |
> No, YOU can't.  I can.
> 
> 
> You really have zero idea howd she move with an opponent in either free sparring or one step


[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but youre literally just making it up using your imagination...


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 27, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> Yeah, but youre literally just making it up using your imagination...


|
Keep telling yourself that.  All my defeated opponents (mostly) say the same thing.  Traditional karate is a mental discipline.  it's about applying principles.  You have a different definition of what those principles are than do I....  That's it.....


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 28, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I have no problem with simplified exercises like one-steps. I have no problem with practicing moves at less than full speed and power. (Not always, but it has its place.)  _*I have a big problem with practicing using incorrect distancing. Distancing is one of the most important aspects of combat no matter what the context.*_
> |
> Distancing is in no way limited to sport fighting. If you can't reach me, you can't hurt me. That's a fundamental reality whether you're in the ring, on the street, or on a medieval battlefield.


|
As to your quote on DISTANCING, For practical purposes, I would completely agree.
|
Once we have the question of distancing on the table, the question arise on how does one conceptually approach that distancing.  this is something that TMA, in my book, does in a fundamentally different way than the sport fighting methods such a boxing--and what we typically see in MMA.
|
And, we if look at TMA, the traditional karates styles, we see another divergence between the highly mobile, darting in & out of range we typically see in competition kumite; AND, the type of movement we see in the more traditionally-based Ippon Kumite type exercises.
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The practice of the latter is one of the aspects that took me to the practice of traditional karate, the emphasis in the curriculum on 1-steps.  I have seen similar versions practiced in the Chinese martial arts in my locale as well.
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Why I refrain from referring to Distancing, is that it is usually interpreted as one or another of the opponents figuring out how to move across space catching the other guy unaware or off guard--and land a hit on the opponent; or in the case of grapplers do the same conquering of space in order and score a takedown, etc.  Great example of this is the highly-active, bouncing up & down & all around displayed in Shotokan conventional point fighting kumite.  The working goal is based on high mobility of moving in super fast, landing a strike--then backing quickly away out of striking range.  I don't care for this approach myself.
|
I'm not so concerned distancing, either in closing on the opponent unawares--or in maintaining a large defensive buffer such as I've described for conventional Shotokan point fighting-kumite.  I'm more concerned with controlling the exchange.  I'm more concerned with the exercise of KIME.
|
KIME, as emphasized by the Shotokan karate curriculum, addresses all the decisions one must make in any exchange, including the spacial relationship between oneself & the opponent.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Why I refrain from referring to Distancing, is that it is usually interpreted as one or another of the opponents figuring out how to move across space catching the other guy unaware or off guard--and land a hit on the opponent; or in the case of grapplers do the same conquering of space in order and score a takedown, etc.



That's just one aspect of distancing. Honestly, I can't think of a single genuine martial art where understanding and control of distance isn't vitally important. Koryu sword arts, Wing Chun, Karate, BJJ, HEMA, western boxing, TKD, whatever. Regardless of the specific principles of the art, you have to understand distance.



ShotoNoob said:


> KIME, as emphasized by the Shotokan karate curriculum, addresses all the decisions one must make in any exchange, including the spacial relationship between oneself & the opponent.



This is why I am surprised that you initially defended the clip we were discussing. How can the practitioners be developing kime when they demonstrate that they don't understand the spatial relationship between their bodies?


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 28, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's just one aspect of distancing. Honestly, I can't think of a single genuine martial art where understanding and control of distance isn't vitally important. Koryu sword arts, Wing Chun, Karate, BJJ, HEMA, western boxing, TKD, whatever. Regardless of the specific principles of the art, you have to understand distance.


|
I think I said I agree with your interpretation in practice.  It's how one approaches the issue is where the discussion lies....
|
Thanks for following up.


Tony Dismukes said:


> This is why I am surprised that you initially defended the clip we were discussing. How can the practitioners be developing kime when they demonstrate that they don't understand the spatial relationship between their bodies?


|
Tony, I think we are looking at the same vid and seeing two different perspectives.  I think I spoke to this before.
|
My conversation with you, and I note two MT members have marked agreed to your reply-post, is not unlike a conversation I had with a Gracie BJJ club which used to be located very near to me.  Like you, the instructor, a very, very nice guy, could not comprehend my explanation of traditional karate & why it works.
|
Later, one of the senior students there, I talked with him @ length, I gave some short demos, the light-bulb went off in his head.
|
He acknowledged that they, the BJJ club, where not approaching martial arts the way I was explaining.  He gleaned my point of the mental discipline over physical training.
\
Traditional karate as a mental discipline, though specifically set forth in traditional karate manuals, including Shotokan, is not something that is easy to convey in person, let alone over the internet in blog form.  Mental abilities are intangible, we can only see the physical result.  As such, mental qualities are problematic to define, understand & convey.  We have the limitations of the Blog-medium, so to speak.
|
I gave detailed explanations, yet if you are on the wave-length of the local Gracie BJJ club near me, my explanations are just not going to make any sense to you.  I think that's where we are.


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## TrueJim (Apr 28, 2015)

...or, you could just kick the other guy in the head really hard.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 28, 2015)

PICKING SHOTOKAN AS A TRADITIONAL MARTIAL ART:
|
Tony, here's something of an illustration of what i am talking about.  The YT feature's Stan Schmidt.  He is quite up in years in the vid.
\
Stan is well respected by the ranking JKA in Japan.  I believe he started in Judo at his homeland in South Africa.  He became fascinated with karate.  After training in Japan, he went on to spearhead the introduction of karate, via Shotokan to South Africa.
|
Some time back, I obtained a set of VHS tapes made by Stan on Shotokan.  Sure enough, it displays all the attributes which I don't like about Shotokan, the heavy physicality, the over-aggression, some of the rigid techniques, etc.
|
The amazing presentation in those tapes, however, is that Stan does explain in some terms, the traditional karate principles, and how Shotokan karate is designed to move from the physical training, into more of a mental discipline.  His own demonstration of advanced Shotokan karate in these tapes, however brief, is just about the most impressive display of Shotokan karate I have ever seen.
|
Stan, like me, is not a bruiser, though he was very lean & lithe in his younger days.  He is very professorial and speaks like a physical education teacher / college professor.  Here's a brief vid I found on YT




Stan, and two of his most famous students, are highlighted in the vid.  You & I can look @ this vid and see two different processes, I'm sure.  I'll describe what I see below in a separate post for clarity....


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 28, 2015)

ShotoNoob said:


> Stan, like me, is not a bruiser, though he was very lean & lithe in his younger days. He is very professorial and speaks like a physical education teacher / college professor. Here's a brief vid I found on YT
> 
> Stan, and two of his most famous students, are highlighted in the vid. You & I can look @ this vid and see two different processes, I'm sure. I'll describe what I see below in a separate post for clarity....


See, _that_ video I like. The kareteka in the video demonstrate both mental and physical focus as well as good distancing, power, control, intensity, and body mechanics. Even though they practice a very different art than I do, I have total respect for what they are demonstrating. It's in every way far superior to the first TKD clip you posted.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 28, 2015)

Stan Schmidt Demonstration of Traditional Shotokan Karate.
|
REVIEW OF STAN'S KATA.  Since there is a tendency here to point out the flaws in my examples, I can point to a minor mistake Stan makes in his kata.  Again, looking at meaningful working objectives, Stan's demonstration to me highlights how Machida could have out struck Rockhold.
|
Note that in refutation to those whose say that karate is practice full power, Stan is not putting out full physical force in his kata demo.  In doing so, Stan is putting out full mental power and that is where the building of full karate power comes from.
|
Stan's demo against the staff attack demonstrates how to handle an assault under pressure.  The concepts of distancing & timing you speak of are handled by precise, mentally-driven adjustments to stance.  Defense is active, not all that running all over the kumite floor or the MMA Octagon for that matter.  At the exact moment of vulnerability on the part of the attacker, Stan counter stikes, not before.  Note the demo takes a couple of moves for Stan to set the counter up, so to speak.  The process of each tactic in the kumite is an exercise in KIME.
|
REVIEW OF 1ST STUDENT:
|
For Shotokan, this karateka is very relaxed & transitions easily between techniques / tactics.  Obviously this student is one of Stan's best, and his form and precision are on target...   Note that he fights with his hand mid-levels.  I do note his athletics, like most conventional Shotokan stylist's, he relies heavily on evasion rather than active defense.
|
REVIEW OF 2ND STUDENT:
|
This student is more of a bruiser.  However, note how he too is relaxed in smashing the boards, one station right after another.  Had Machida started out this way instead of point fighting Rockhold, Machida might have prevailed.  In traditional Shotokan kumite, you hit the opponent & he goes down....  That's what I got out of this demo.  No pussy-footing around.


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## ShotoNoob (Apr 28, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> See, _that_ video I like. The kareteka in the video demonstrate both mental and physical focus as well as good distancing, power, control, intensity, and body mechanics. Even though they practice a very different art than I do, I have total respect for what they are demonstrating. It's in every way far superior to the first TKD clip you posted.


|
Thanks...  the difference being these guys are experts.  Intensity, I like that descriptor.  It's a sign of mental output.


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