# How high can instructors promote their students?



## Carol

Out of sheer curiosity...if an instructor is...say...a 6th degree BB, to what rank can s/he promote his/her students?


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## michaeledward

I think the custom is two belts below themselves; so a 6th could promote to a 4th.


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## Carol

Thanks Michael!  :asian:

Do you know how the tradition came about? 

I can see Asian traditions being vertical enough to not traditionally allowing a promotion to the same rank...but why two belts below instead of, say, one belt below?

Just curious...


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## Kacey

It's the same in my TKD association - a BB can promote up to 2 ranks below their current rank.  As far as I know, the rationale is that the rank below yours is too close to provide a clear understanding of the differences between ranks, and the finer points of demonstrating that you are the next rank.


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## Flying Crane

I believe these customs are more common among those who belong to a larger parent organization, with one whom they accept as a grandmaster.  Among those who are more independent minded, and who do not belong to a larger organization, you would typically find more lax attitudes towards this.


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## Carol

Ahh! OK...now another follow up to that.


I read someplace that the rank of "Intstructor" is given, traditionally, to a 3rd degree bb.   Is this one of the reasons why...since a third dergree would be the de minimus rank required to award a black belt?

Once my curiosity is piqued...I tend to ask a lot of questions


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## Flying Crane

Carol Kaur said:
			
		

> Ahh! OK...now another follow up to that.
> 
> 
> I read someplace that the rank of "Intstructor" is given, traditionally, to a 3rd degree bb. Is this one of the reasons why...since a third dergree would be the de minimus rank required to award a black belt?
> 
> Once my curiosity is piqued...I tend to ask a lot of questions


 
My First Degree certificate states that I can teach and award rank.  Period.  No special considerations attached.  But then again, I and my instructors do not belong to any larger organization.  I guess we have always just done things our own way and not worried much about what others might think about it.


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## PatMunk

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I think the custom is two belts below themselves; so a 6th could promote to a 4th.



Some say you can promote to two belts below yourself, then again some say you can promote to one rank below yourself, but at some point you can promote to your rank. If you could only promote, no matter what your rank, to two grades below yourself then how does anyone get to 9th or 10th.

I might be mistaken but I think at the level of 7th or 8th you can start promoting to your grade.


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## Kenpodoc

You can promote to any rank you wish, the question is will anyone take that rank seriously. My instructor wears a Bar on his belt but generally tests first black and above only when his instructor (Mr. Wedlake) is present.  This means that we get the honor of being tested in front of Mr. Wedlake and my instructor in effect gets tested by our demonstration of what he has taught us.

Jeff


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

I think the tradition in Kenpo is not to promote your students to more than 2 ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.

So the answer is 8th Degree Black Belt.


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## monkey

What Ive seen on some styles (yes 2 belts bellow founders rank.)Yet if they  have a board of suporting members some one can be made Grandmaster! In the shaolin -kepmo line.(7th dan Master Proffesor).In the days of James Mitose,I herd it from Anton Kruckey that it could take a life time to get a black.He didnt understand how a small child could have such rank that took so long.


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## Kenpodoc

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I think the tradition in Kenpo is not to promote your students to more than 2 ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.
> 
> So the answer is 8th Degree Black Belt.


:rofl:


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## Carol

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I think the tradition in Kenpo is not to promote your students to more than 2 ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.
> 
> So the answer is 8th Degree Black Belt.


 
:roflmao:


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## Rich_Hale

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I think the tradition in Kenpo is not to promote your students to more than 2 ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.
> 
> So the answer is 8th Degree Black Belt.


 
So in all the wisdom of an Old Fat Kenpoka,

Does this mean I can promote myself to 9th, so I can promote my instructor to 7th, so he can promote me to 5th?

RH


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

Yes.   And more...

You can promote yourself to 10th, then promote your instructor to 8th.  He can then promote you to 11th, then you promote him to 9th, then he can promote himself to 10th and promote you to 12th.

Clear?


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## Rich_Hale

And to think the only reason I'm not walking around wearing double bars is because I simply couldn't do the math.

Oh well, I may not be too bright when it come to rank, but when it come to business - I have it nailed!  

Ya, I teach for free, but I make it up in volume.


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## jfarnsworth

Ok, cool. Now we all know how it gets done. Any takers to put on a 3 bar belt?


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## Carol

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ok, cool. Now we all know how it gets done. Any takers to put on a 3 bar belt?


 
I play 12-bar blues. Does that count? :boing1:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Ok, cool. Now we all know how it gets done. Any takers to put on a 3 bar belt?


 
I think it's been done...


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## Hand Sword

Simply Amazing!  :erg:


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## Carol

migod, someone cover my eyes...


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## green meanie

:erg:


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## Rich_Hale

*Time enhansed photo.*


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## Ray

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> *Time enhansed photo.*


My belt used to hang that long that until I hit 40 years old. Now I can barely get it around my waist.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> *Time enhansed photo.*


 
Now that's funny. I actually laughed outloud when I saw this. Brilliant...I gotta get me photoshop.


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## jfarnsworth

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> I think it's been done...


Yes, his reverse belt thing he coined up. I think the black and red all indicate his advanced degrees in all martial arts he's studied:idunno:  and achieved. 

It looks stupid.


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## fnorfurfoot

I was brought up to believe that an instructor could promote to one rank below his own rank.  I have heard that some systems make it two degrees below.  

As far as people getting ranked to a 10th Dan....I have heard of a variety of options.  One would be to create a new name for your system and claim that you are the grand master of that system, since you created it.  That has been done way too many times.  

Another would be only slightly more honest.  As you develop your ability, add a degree to your own belt every five years or so.  You are ranking yourself but at least it isn't overnight.  It's kind of like homeschooling yourself.  As you learn more, you graduate to another level.  

The next is more realistic.  Once you have established yourself as a life long instructor in the arts and have developed a strong following, the black belts that you have trained through the years vote for you to receive your next rank.  Then they sign your certificate.

The last is for an existing Grandmaster to basically retire from teaching and promote a student of his to 10th degree to carry on the system in his absence.


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## Kenpojujitsu3

Rich_Hale said:
			
		

> *Time enhansed photo.*


 
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## JamesB

This is a joke picture, right??? :idunno:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka

JamesB said:
			
		

> This is a joke picture, right??? :idunno:


 
The second one is a joke.

Everyone else thinks the first one is a joke -- everyone except for Mr. Spry


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## hongkongfooey

Spry has the GLOW!


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## RichK

"Spry has the GLOW!"  Gorgeous Ladies Of Wrestling???


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## hongkongfooey

Nope, nothing to do with Suzy Spirit. Think of the movie The Last Dragon.


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## fnorfurfoot

He is the MASTER!!!!!


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## Carol

Sho' Nuff!!


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## Kenpobuff

I just did the math...I'm a white belt again.

Steve


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## yorkshirelad

jfarnsworth said:


> Yes, his reverse belt thing he coined up. I think the black and red all indicate his advanced degrees in all martial arts he's studied:idunno: and achieved.
> 
> It looks stupid.


And I suppose all the fat boy wearing 2 bars who can't see the knot don't look stupid. I hope they don't go training on the beach. Wouldn't want Rainbow Warrior towing them into the ocean.


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## yorkshirelad

JamesB said:


> This is a joke picture, right??? :idunno:


 Yes it's a joke picture. Some of these guys are furious at the fact that Spry is not still chewing on Mr Parker's carcass, like they are. It's really quite sad.


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## Sukerkin

Just say "No!" to zombie-revivification.

The last reply in this thread was mid-2006 and you have added nothing to it with your un-necessary, content-free, couple of posts.


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## Aikicomp

In our system (An American style of Ju-Jitsu) my Instructors certificate  states I can promote to 1 rank below my present and all future ranks. Now, I was promoted to Godan (Highest in our style) by the founder of our system and he has since died, so I could not (technically) promote anyone above Yondan. The only way I would consider promoting a student to Godan would be to get all the current Godans in our style and then to have us agree that the student was worthy of that rank or if I'm the last one alive I would pass it on to the Yondan that would continue the style.

Michael


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## Doc

There is no, nor has there ever been a standard other than the one your instructor gave you, and he can't enforce that one.


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## shihansmurf

Well said.

Rank and the rules for giving it are subjective.  I would love to see the dan grade promotions settled by fights to the death with KFC sporks but until that day I, for one, will continue to just respect each instructor's judgements at face value as no one else's rank has any bearing on mine or any of my student's. We, in general, get too wrapped up over the rank issue.  I know the folks that I respect and I do so based on who they are and what they do and how they conduct themselves, not what bit of colored cloth they wrap around their waist. As to what a particular teacher chooses to award their student, that is between that teacher and that student.I keep myself to myself and do my best to provide the best training to my students that I possible can. Enough on my plate with that.

Mark


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## Kenpodoc

shihansmurf said:


> Well said.
> 
> Rank and the rules for giving it are subjective. I would love to see the dan grade promotions settled by fights to the death with KFC sporks but until that day I, ...
> Mark


 True, but then we'd have arguments about whether or not they were using true KFC sporks or some shoddy offshoot.

Jeff


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## Sukerkin

Which is why, in turn, if lineage and legitimacy is important to an individual, they seek out koryu (or their equivalent in other cultures) arts.

If it is not and it is the approval of their own peers that matters, then such things as koryu do not matter.

The only time when 'rank' beomes a subject for serious contention is when it is either being misrepresented or abused.  Other than that, let it go.  I was recently promoted to *sandan* in my art ... did that affect any of the correspondants in this thread?  Do any of you (past or present contributors) really care?  I seriously doubt it :lol:.  

So, in the end, I suppose I'm advocating a "don't fret about it" approach.  Certainly don't allow it to spark heated adversarial debate in a thread that hit cryogenic storage a long time ago.


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## shihansmurf

Kenpodoc said:


> True, but then we'd have arguments about whether or not they were using true KFC sporks or some shoddy offshoot.
> 
> Jeff


 
Well of course we couldn't use Popeye's forks. That would be an inferior test of martial eating skill.

Mark


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## Flying Crane

Sukerkin said:


> I was recently promoted to *sandan* in my art ...


 
Hey!  Congrats Mark!  When did that happen?


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## jfarnsworth

yorkshirelad said:


> And I suppose all the fat boy wearing 2 bars who can't see the knot don't look stupid. I hope they don't go training on the beach. Wouldn't want Rainbow Warrior towing them into the ocean.


 
WTF?
Where did that come from? I got an email saying you posted to a thread from almost 3 years ago. I come on here to see this. What are you trying to accomplish?


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## Twin Fist

Farnsworth, he is one of Steve Spry's students, and is chaffing at the fact that Spry is considered a joke by the true Kenpo Seniors



jfarnsworth said:


> WTF?
> Where did that come from? I got an email saying you posted to a thread from almost 3 years ago. I come on here to see this. What are you trying to accomplish?


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## ArmorOfGod

Old Fat Kenpoka said:


> I think the tradition in Kenpo is not to promote your students to more than 2 ranks below the rank to which you have promoted yourself.
> 
> So the answer is 8th Degree Black Belt.


 
lol


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## yorkshirelad

jfarnsworth said:


> WTF?
> Where did that come from? I got an email saying you posted to a thread from almost 3 years ago. I come on here to see this. What are you trying to accomplish?


I'm new to this forum. I actually joined to refute some of the posts in the General Kenpo forum, concerning Spry. So when I saw another attack, I had to reply, even though the post was posted years ago. My point all along is that it seems ok, even encouraged in the "old boys club" here to attack people and make "humourous comments" concerning them but when the tables are turned, feelings get hurt and grown men start crying. I posted this before I was informed about the RTM feature. BTW, I am no longer in contact with Spry and there is no love lost between us, but the dual standard here is a little weird to me.


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## jfarnsworth

Unfortunately, I was not attacking him in that post. There was a different picture in the post I was referring to than the one you actually see.  Go back & reread what was posted by me in that post. Since you were probably referring to my very last sentence that was my own opinion, not attacking Spry himself. I don't know the guy. Don't much really care about the guy as we have not crossed paths. Beyond that, you are entitled to your opinions as am I. Catch 'ya later. 

I'm kinda done with this subject. I'm going to go back to lurking about.


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## Sukerkin

Flying Crane said:


> Hey! Congrats Mark! When did that happen?


 

A couple of weeks ago - I wish it had happened in a less stressful period of my life so I could have enjoyed the moment more but it was still a wonderful surprise.  

In my mind I have always seen third dan as that point where you are no longer considered a 'beginner' and have shown that you have a solid grasp of what your art contains.


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## jfarnsworth

Sukerkin said:


> I was recently promoted to *sandan* in my art ... did that affect any of the correspondants in this thread? Do any of you (past or present contributors) really care? I seriously doubt it :lol:..


 
Congratulations on the recent promotion. 
Jason


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## cdhall

Kenpodoc said:


> You can promote to any rank you wish, the question is will anyone take that rank seriously. My instructor wears a Bar on his belt but generally tests first black and above only when his instructor (Mr. Wedlake) is present.  This means that we get the honor of being tested in front of Mr. Wedlake and my instructor in effect gets tested by our demonstration of what he has taught us.
> 
> Jeff



Well put, your instructor is tested by virtue of the quality of the students he puts up.


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## shihansmurf

Sukerkin said:


> I was recently promoted to *sandan* in my art ... did that affect any of the correspondants in this thread? Do any of you (past or present contributors) really care? I seriously doubt it :lol:.
> 
> quote]
> 
> 
> Well done, and congradulations.
> 
> 
> Mark


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## Milt G.

Hello,
I know that different organizations allow different promotion standards.

I think that the American Kenpo standard for black belt levels is two ranks below your own.  No promotions can be done under 1st black, except by at least a first black.  8th, 9th and 10th degrees by the board of the organization or association only.

In the Tracy system it is one rank below yourself for Dan rankings.  You can recommend advancement to your own level, but it must be approved by the organization.  Or done by someone that is qualified to do the promotion.  In which case, it is no longer your promotion.

No promotions are done under a black belt level, and Shodan can promote to as high as Ikkyu. (1st brown) in most Kenpo systems.

In Kosho-Ryu all Dan promotions, regardless of the level, are done by the organization head only.  At least, that is the case for Bruce Juchnik's "Sei Kosho Shorei Kai".

These are some of the guidelines, as I understand them, anyway. 

Thank you,
Milt G.


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## dbell

In Judo, Kendo and Aikido, you typically have to be 3rd Dan to belt, and you can belt up to 2nd Dan.  In my Kendo school if you are 5th Dan and up to 8th Dan you can belt to 3rd Dan and one below you.  If there are three or more 4th Dan or up on a panel you can belt up to your rank.  (All on the panel have to be that rank or higher.)  9th Dan can belt up to 8th Dan without a panel.  10th Dan (only one in school) can belt up to 9th Dan and will announce his replacement at death (via will) or at retirement who will then be 10th Dan.


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## Hudson69

It has been a really long time but I thought it was up to one below the instructor but my memory is foggy.


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## Milt G.

Rich_Hale said:


> *Time enhansed photo.*


 
Hello,

No offense to Mr. Spry...  But...
THAT is funny...

In a sad sort of way...

Thanks,
Milt G.


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