# The issue with MMA community



## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.

this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.

the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


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## lklawson (Aug 20, 2021)

[entertainment mod enabled]


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


Muay thay is lame.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Muay thay is lame.


Lol I meant Muay Thai


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> Lol I meant Muay Thai


So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one.  Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise.  Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.  

Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though.  I mean, look at football (American or otherwise).  Fans of a team are inherently irrational.  They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams.  And most of it is emotional fandom.  But that's just the nature of it.  People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle).  But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.

The key, though, is don't take it seriously or personally.  And remember that if someone uses ninjutsu or aikido successfully in MMA, it will make you dizzy how fast peoples' opinions will change.  

For my part, I think training Aikido for MMA would be really good for Aikido.


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?


Only if you refer to the rum as grog to make it sound tougher.


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## Instructor (Aug 20, 2021)

I don't attack MMA and it doesn't attack me.  Life is good.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one.  Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise.  Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.
> 
> Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though.  I mean, look at football (American or otherwise).  Fans of a team are inherently irrational.  They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams.  And most of it is emotional fandom.  But that's just the nature of it.  People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle).  But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.

THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.  

nah, they’ll just say it worked because the guy doing it made it work...I mean no duh lol.

I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.
> 
> THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.
> 
> ...


I will point out that it would not be unusual for a teacher to be able to beat all of his students.  That is often what brings a student to a teacher in the first place: the perception that the teacher is better than they are, and they want to become good like the teacher.  

What would be really telling is if someone became student to a teacher who they knew they could beat, and the teacher knew it as well.  But if the student perceives that the teacher has a certain methodology or something that the student realizes would make an improvement in his own abilities, then the relative skill difference is immaterial, compared to the knowledge transfer.  That knowledge is what matters.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.


I'd be surprised if that were true. It's not an efficient platform for training up to speed quickly, nor does it give an advantage over something like Judo or CCW, so the longer learning curve makes it a poor choice for competing against other styles.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> Agreed, I just dislike how they act that what they’re saying is gospel. I was just in a Bruce Lee thread where the same old bs was being spouted, BRUCE LEE NEVER FOUGHT IN COMPETITION OR A BOXING RING. but lee beat every one of his students...and some were judo and boxing champs.
> 
> THATS YOUR STANCE! Oh it’s my stance, not Tim Tacketts, Dan Inosanto, Jesse Glover, or James DeMile.
> 
> ...


They guy that you were arguing with was not someone that trains MMA, just so you know. He's a CMA guy.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I will point out that it would not be unusual for a teacher to be able to beat all of his students.  That is often what brings a student to a teacher in the first place: the perception that the teacher is better than they are, and they want to become good like the teacher.
> 
> What would be really telling is if someone became student to a teacher who they knew they could beat, and the teacher knew it as well.  But if the student perceives that the teacher has a certain methodology or something that the student realizes would make an improvement in his own abilities, then the relative skill difference is immaterial, compared to the knowledge transfer.  That knowledge is what matters.


They were his students because he beat them, many of his first generation students were in other arts and schools then joined him.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> They guy that you were arguing with was not someone that trains MMA, just so you know. He's a CMA guy.


You mean in the aikido thread? I just found him very close minded


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> You mean in the aikido thread? I just found him very close minded


The JKD thread, I think, not aikido. And I know little to nothing about bruce lee, just wanted to put that out there since you seemed to think that he was part of the mma crowd when that's not his background.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> The JKD thread, I think, not aikido. And I know little to nothing about bruce lee, just wanted to put that out there since you seemed to think that he was part of the mma crowd when that's not his background.


a few people made the comment, I just think it’s weird they thought Lee didn’t have any fight experience, you can see interviews of Lee’s students and even their students on YouTube. Adam Chan is one of the best


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'd be surprised if that were true. It's not an efficient platform for training up to speed quickly, nor does it give an advantage over something like Judo or CCW, so the longer learning curve makes it a poor choice for competing against other styles.



I talked with a couple MMA guys, a few years back, that trained Qigong and they were picking my brain about Taijiquan. Basically they will train anything that they think will help them win and qigong helped them relax. But with that said, I have not heard of any Aikido folks who were also MMA. A few were BJJ but no MMA


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## punisher73 (Aug 20, 2021)

Since the thread is about me, I thought I'd chime in (even though he called me a liar and a troll for pointing this out).

Here were my posts:

_Yep, and not a single "student" of Bruce Lee ever competed or won anything on a large scale. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris etc. trained WITH Bruce Lee and were already established martial artists when they met. Bruce Lee was NOT their instructor. Many people trained with each other and exchanged ideas back then, which was the case with Lewis and Norris. Bruce Lee exchanged ideas with Ed Parker and Gene LeBell, but no one over says that they were Bruce's teachers. It only seems to go the other way when someone came to Bruce to exchange ideas or learn something from him.

What we DO know is that the year after Bruce Lee died, Dan Inosanto took a JKD team to the IKC's (Ed Parker's huge tournament in CA) in 1974 to compete in the Team Black Belt division. Their first draw was to the BKF "B Team". Dan Inosanto's team lost 33-0, they didn't even score a SINGLE point. They never brought another team.

So what Judo Championship did Jesse Glover actually win? He won the Pacific Northwest Championship Brown Belt Division. Not to take away his achievement, but that is much different than competing in an open national championship tournament and claiming he was a national champion. I would also expect that a student who sparred in a striking match would be dominated by a striker in sparring based on striking.

To put it another way, when Gene LeBell sparred Bruce Lee and put Bruce in a headlock and then picked Bruce up in a fireman's carry and ran around with Bruce on his shoulders we would expect that because it was a grappling match and Bruce Lee was not a grappler. It was also what inspired Bruce to train with Gene for about 2 years because it was such a weakness in his approach.

What "boxing champions" did Bruce Lee teach long term? What championships did they win? James Demile claimed he was the Air Force HW boxing champ. But, there are no records of him competing and winning that title (All Air Force). Back then, he would have fought for the "All Service" Championship against the other branches. Most of those guys were Olympic quality or turned pro that competed at that level. Many years later when Demile was questioned, he talked about that most of his boxing matches were "smokers" against bums and that the other matches were between divisions in Anchorage Alaska. Demile even stated, "It sounded like I was a good fighter, but to tell the truth the guys I fought were not that good". So, he may have won something in Alaska, but again it wasn't a title like we are led to believe.

In the book, "The Tao of Bruce Lee", Joe Lewis told the author that "Bruce didn't spar anybody except for the guys who sucked up to him."_

My point is/was, if you want to say someone is a great fighter then there needs to be some type of measurement to it, which is judged by competitions or documented fights with other fighters.  If you want to say that Bruce Lee helped coach other martial artists and helped them with his concepts/ideas, I have no problem with that.  

I don't think anyone would argue that Angelo Dundee and Cus D'Amato were amazing boxing coaches, but you would have never called them fighters.


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## Steve (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’m sure people do train aikido for mma.


Really?  If anyone did anything like this I would literally (and by "literally", I mean figuratively) lose my mind:


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Really?  If anyone did anything like this I would literally (and by "literally", I mean figuratively) lose my mind:


I'm not sure I fully understand the purpose of this video.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 20, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by "the MMA community". As you say, my experience with most actual MMA fighters and coaches is that they are pretty open minded about anything that works.

I do have to disagree if you are placing Rokas or Ramsey Dewey in the category of people who would attack you for discussing anything other than "judo, muay thai, wrestling, bjj, boxing, or kickboxing."

Just offhand, I can recall Ramsey Dewey showing techniques he has incorporated from Capoeira, telling the story of the time he got his butt kicked by an old Tai Chi master, and mentioning the time one of his students (who had an Aikido background) pulled off an Aikido throw in sparring that he had never seen someone pull off before. I've also seen him speak approvingly of a variety of other arts.

Rokas has posted videos challenging practitioners of arts not known for sparring to send him footage of their systems actually being used under pressure - but he has then posted follow up videos where he shows the footage he has received and shown respect for those practitioners who actually demonstrated sparring ability. I exchanged a couple of messages with him back when he was still in the process of trying to make his Aikido work and hadn't switched to a full time MMA focus. I found him to be extremely polite and respectful.


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## Mider (Aug 20, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I'm not sure I know exactly what you mean by "the MMA community". As you say, my experience with most actual MMA fighters and coaches is that they are pretty open minded about anything that works.
> 
> I do have to disagree if you are placing Rokas or Ramsey Dewey in the category of people who would attack you for discussing anything other than "judo, muay thai, wrestling, bjj, boxing, or kickboxing."
> 
> ...


I guess I mean the peanut gallery, guys who train mma as a hobby or are fans but don’t really fight

i think Rokas jumps into stuff without doing research, he should be asking who is the teacher, does the school emphasis real world application, not just join a school, see it sucks then trash the martial art when it’s that particular schools fault, you'll find mcdojos in every art. Ramsey Dewey is a bit worse because he makes excuses, when Yi Long used Kung fu successfully he goes oh well he’s not a monk so it’s irrelevant or karate doesn’t work...Machida only makes it work cause he’s Machida.

I’ve never seen him do so...I’ve seen him be critical of most arts, from Kung fu, Krav Maga, wing Chun, etc 

He may be extremely polite etc but just because the school doesn’t make it work doesn’t mean the art doesn’t work, I’ve seen guys in wing Chun spat, guys in Aikido use it for security because they adapted it with other techniques. I don’t take what he says seriously polite or not, I think his approach is silly and he should do more research into schools and arts he learns


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## letsplaygames (Aug 21, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


 
MMA is wide open, it's pond is very very deep with big fish. (even at the local level!)  Most those that practice MMA have little patience for the martial version of "How many Angles can stand on the head of a pin" 

I think what your seeing with people in mma with those people that have little or no patience,  is they know many  arts do not respond well to the "physical dynamics of a fight" therefore ineffective. So...  "Why talk about them... ?"

Now that all said... for me, one of the draws of watching MMA is when someone has a unique style drawn from something one wouldn't normally see in MMA.   They usually have the advantage till someone figures out the strategy or tactic.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 21, 2021)

Wouldnt say you get it anymore or less in MMA than any other martial art or place.    And define attacked?

(and this is more club pending, and club culture pending than style really)

Being more willing to basically step into a ring and duke it out isnt really a objectively bad thing especially if you are teaching fighting, Combat sports may just build a culture of more willing to step inside a ring and duke it out.    Or to do that to "prove whats better".


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## BrendanF (Aug 21, 2021)

*"the issue with the internet MA community"

Fixed that for you.  Personally I realised a while back that every MA person younger than me likely falls into this box.  There are many causes, but why let it bother you?


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2021)

Mider said:


> I guess I mean the peanut gallery, guys who train mma as a hobby or are fans but don’t really fight



For the sake of discussion, if we change that to "_Guys who train *Martial Arts* as a hobby or are fans but don't really fight_" that would probably be ninety something percent of all people who ever trained Martial Arts.

_Mod edit: fixed quote tags_


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2021)

@Buka it's not letting me quote you, but I'd bet even more than that, depending on what you consider "ever trained".


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?


They can turn a wolf into a monkey..


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> They can turn a wolf into a monkey..


Well someone can at least. If you figured out who did it, let me know.


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## Buka (Aug 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Buka it's not letting me quote you, but I'd bet even more than that, depending on what you consider "ever trained".


You're probably right. And I think the real reason most people don't train Martial Arts as a full time thing is, they just can't. Not with work, family and everything else everyone goes through.

If you're trying to fight for a living, sure, maybe, if everything goes well and your living conditions are lucky enough.

Full time Martial Arts is a tough racket.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Well someone can at least. If you figured out who did it, let me know.


I was talking about Mai Tais..


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 21, 2021)

Buka said:


> You're probably right. And I think the real reason most people don't train Martial Arts as a full time thing is, they just can't. Not with work, family and everything else everyone goes through.
> 
> If you're trying to fight for a living, sure, maybe, if everything goes well and your living conditions are lucky enough.
> 
> Full time Martial Arts is a tough racket.


Yup. Often not a desire issue. I love MA of any form, but with medical issues, energy being spent towards work, and just taking care of a household it seriously hampers the amount of time I can spend on MA. I could theoretically spend more time if I removed all other social parts of my life, but that wouldn't be healthy. 

And I don't have kids yet, and fairly lucky career-wise so far. For plenty of people it's just not possible at all to spend more time on it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> @Buka it's not letting me quote you, but I'd bet even more than that, depending on what you consider "ever trained".


The quote tag had his reply inside it. I fixed it.

And I agree.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2021)

Do people think their martial art is on the same level as the MMA ones though?

I mean I fully recognise there are martial artists who are better than me. I recognise there are schools better than mine.

I don't have the sort of fragile ego that demands I am on an equal tier with dudes who are demonstratively better.

And in MMA it is pretty easy to tell because basically they either beat you up or they don't. You don't have to muck around with a bunch of silly logic games.

I mean this conflict quite often comes about more when someone suggests a completely theoretical thing and then suggests MMA guys are being mean when it gets dismissed.

So for example ramsey dewey for example has no time for Master Wong's antics. 

But there is no onus on the guy to bolster master Wong's ego. Or support the very suspect advice he puts out.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2021)

So let's simplify the issue with the MMA community.

Some stuff from some styles doesn't work and you shouldn't learn it. And the MMA community know this because they actually do the things that do work. 






Sorry if that offends some styles.


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## jayoliver00 (Aug 22, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.



Those guys that you listed, mostly just dabbled in those TMA's.  To get to where they are, their core was still those MMA staples that you were complaining about. Anderson Silva, ain't a Wing Chunner...he's straight up Muay Thai and even opened a school for it. And he's a BJJ BB and Pro Boxer.

Eric Paulson was getting demolished in the early days of MMA, trying out his Wing Chun there; and that was when the  talent was nowhere near what it is today.  Paulson then started training BJJ, Mai Thai, and all of that (that you complained about). Chuck Liddell is an anomaly with a freakish chin (that's gone now due to all that beating)....you throw wide, looping punches like Liddell does so often, and you'll go night night quick.  Ain't no aspiring UFC fighter is saying..."hey, I'd like to throw punches like Chuck Liddell, can you teach me?"  And Liddell is also a Wrestler.  Hackleman also teaches all of those staple arts that you complained about.


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 22, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.



What do you mean by "attacked?"

Are they claiming that arts outside of those aren't good for MMA?  Never having been involved in MMA myself, I wouldn't have the experiential wherewithal to argue with an MMA fighter on that.  At the same time, results don't lie.  Look at the arts that the top fighters in the UFC are trained in.  

Anyone who's going to get an inferiority complex over it can easily save themselves the stress by taking up an art that's more commonly represented in MMA.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

Sorry to say, I am more on the MMA side. To put it in perspective, I never learn MMA, my main discipline is Tae Kwon Do which I spent almost 3 years. I learn some Wing Chun and 9 months of Judo when I was in Hong Kong. I don't know anything about BJJ, ground game, wrestling and all that. By the time MMA was available, I am way too old to learn.

To me, MA is the ART OF KICKING BUTT, not artistic. You want pretty and grace, go do ballet. UFC is the ULTIMATE proving ground for what works and what NOT. Particular the earlier days where the only rule were no eyes gauging, no biting. People with all disciplines went up there and very quickly ( only UFC 1, 2, 3) to show what worked and what didn't. People pick the ones that WORK and eliminate the ones that doesn't.

MMA is very practical and evolving very fast. You can see the change even watching back videos from 7 years ago. Basically, ones that boil down to is Tae Kwon Do kicks, boxing hands ( combine to kick boxing), BJJ, wrestling, Muy Thai elbows and knees. These are proven by time and success. IF any style disagree, the octagon is WIDE OPEN for them to proof their worth. You beat them, you will earn your respect. You do not demand respect, YOU EARN IT. You feel passionate about this, train hard, find someone with the talent and go into the Octagon and win. They will give you all the respect you want.

Now, don't claim your style and fight like MMA, if you win by MMA style, that doesn't count. You win with your distinct style. Don't go up there and do kick boxing. And being from Hong Kong, I had a lot of exposure to the masters of different style. They talk too much. Like I said, MA is an art of kicking butt, don't beautify the meaning.

Sorry, as an outsider, this is how I see it. Talk is cheap, go win some matches with your style, then people will give you the due respect.

Go on youtube, look up Xu Ziaodung.

SORRY


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> UFC is the ULTIMATE proving ground for what works and what NOT.


I've said something similar, only I said MMA in general is the proving ground.  In any case, the idea is the same.  A practitioner in an art outside of those most commonly practiced in MMA can deny this until the cows come home, but seeing is believing; and to show is to prove.   And that's exactly what MMA does.  That's why we call it the "proving ground."

I'm under the impression that many of us want to believe that we're Mr Miyagi or Jackie Chan, and can take down the big mean looking guys with the tattoos and the mohawks.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've said something similar, only I said MMA in general is the proving ground.  In any case, the idea is the same.  A practitioner in an art outside of those most commonly practiced in MMA can deny this until the cows come home, but seeing is believing; and to show is to prove.   And that's exactly what MMA does.  That's why we call it the "proving ground."
> 
> I'm under the impression that many of us want to believe that we're Mr Miyagi or Jackie Chan, and can take down the big mean looking guys with the tattoos and the mohawks.


Don't think I am gleeful to say all that, actually I am very bitter because I put in a lot of effort learning Tae Kwon Do and Injured my back from all the high kicks and had to quit. If I knew MMA was coming, I would have saved my back and put effort into MMA and BJJ. I say this with a lot of bitterness. But this is the fact. Don't agree, prove inside the octagon.

I don't associate with Kung Fu community in US at all, but I lived in Hong Kong for 20 years and seen enough of their loud mouth trash talking it really turned me off. They talk as if they were the best and trash talked other style. Then they go into talking fight "on paper".........If you come at me with this, then I do this to counter..........Hell, you don't talk fight on paper, you fight!!!

I was there when Bruce Lee died. They hated Bruce Lee but Lee whooped their butt. We heard of private fights between Lee and other masters. I heard it's common some rich people actually had private party hosting fights and never goes on record whether you believe it or not. They hated Bruce Lee at the time. Then right after Lee died, a lot of people came out and claimed they can beat Bruce Lee. It's so common people trash talk each other.

I remember there were competitions broadcasted on tv between different style in the whole Asia. People represented different style went into the stage with all the body armor fighting each other. I was young at the time before I learn anything. I was watching.........How come they all looked the same when they fight, just fighting like mad dogs whaling at each other!!! There's no difference between monkey style, Prey Mentas, Hung Ga, white brow, or any other fancy styles. All looked like mad dog whaling at each other!!!    *I did not see this,* but my friend told me he saw Muy Thai really whooped every other styles' butt.

To me, the problem of tradition MA is they are stubborn, they refuse to change. Those styles were invented hundreds of years ago learning from animals. They glorify how to do it EXACTLY how it was done from the beginning, they refuse to change, instead keep arguing how "right" they are. MMA is about change, improving. They look at Kung Fu, they incorporated the* step kick* to the knee from Wing Chun. You can see they use it a lot lately. MMA community is NOT stubborn, you just have to show it's effective and they'll learn and use it right away.

Last but NOT the least, there's so so much BULL **** in Kung Fu. I personally suffered from the scam and hype. When UFC first came on the scene, I was too old and my back won't allow me to learn anymore. I was watching how the grappler lower the body and charge the opponent. Their back are exposed right in front of you. You can use Iron Palm to wack on his back. I spent 3 years practicing Iron Palm diligently, I did NOT hit any harder, I got nothing out from it other than carpal tunnel on both of my hands. I had to have surgery on my left hand and I still carrying it on my right hand. Kung Fu glorify repetitive motion, that you practice hitting 100 times every day over and over and you get better. That is such a SCAM. Scam about promising miracle of iron palm. 3 long years of practicing, absolutely no improvement, no increase in hitting power, all a scam. You see on youtube iron head and iron body stuffs? Good luck.

 I am glad Xu Zaiodung makes it a mission to uncover all the BS.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I've said something similar, only I said MMA in general is the proving ground.  In any case, the idea is the same.  A practitioner in an art outside of those most commonly practiced in MMA can deny this until the cows come home, but seeing is believing; and to show is to prove.   And that's exactly what MMA does.  That's why we call it the "proving ground."
> 
> I'm under the impression that many of us want to believe that we're Mr Miyagi or Jackie Chan, and can take down the big mean looking guys with the tattoos and the mohawks.



It is the best laboratory because it is really versatile. That basic mma platform can be used to test so many different dynamics consistently with that nice mix of saftey and realism. 

You can experiment with weapons or multiple opponents of even obstacles without having to reinvent the wheel too much. 

And it was something that was being tested bady without that platform and one of the reasons we have so many misconceptions about fighting and self defence.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

drop bear said:


> It is the best laboratory because it is really versatile. That basic mma platform can be used to test so many different dynamics consistently with that nice mix of saftey and realism.
> 
> You can experiment with weapons or multiple opponents of even obstacles without having to reinvent the wheel too much.
> 
> And it was something that was being tested bady without that platform and one of the reasons we have so many misconceptions about fighting and self defence.


I would be so nice to eliminate a lot of the rules and go back to the early days of UFC. Don't have the balls, don't walk into the octagon.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I would be so nice to eliminate a lot of the rules and go back to the early days of UFC. Don't have the balls, don't walk into the octagon.



I know guys who have done it. There was an Australian NHB league back in the day. 

But you can't do it constantly. And therefore you don't really get good at it. Where if you have more rules you can do it more often. 

It is like bare knuckle boxers. They don't train a heap of bare knuckle because they just can't get the volume of training needed to compete in a bare knuckle fight. 

And this is where the my style is better than yours comes in to it.

Say I wanted to learn self defence on the street against a guy punching me. 

It is more efficient to just be really good at grappling and then spend some of that time learning the specific dynamics of grappling and punching. Because you develop the tools to achieve that result better. 

And so your BJJs your folk wrestling your judo and so on are just better styles for gaining those skills. 

Then you could take that knowledge and then say do krav for example and be able to do krav functionality better than a krav expert because they have missed these massive functional necessities. 

And we can see it. Not necessarily in the top tier UFCs because the individual talent issue. But with things like the wimp to warrior programs that put people in full contact fights inside six months. 

Rokus is a prime example there where they took a guy with years of training and made him progress astronomically in a very short time.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Sorry to say, I am more on the MMA side. To put it in perspective, I never learn MMA, my main discipline is Tae Kwon Do which I spent almost 3 years. I learn some Wing Chun and 9 months of Judo when I was in Hong Kong. I don't know anything about BJJ, ground game, wrestling and all that. By the time MMA was available, I am way too old to learn.
> 
> To me, MA is the ART OF KICKING BUTT, not artistic. You want pretty and grace, go do ballet. UFC is the ULTIMATE proving ground for what works and what NOT. Particular the earlier days where the only rule were no eyes gauging, no biting. People with all disciplines went up there and very quickly ( only UFC 1, 2, 3) to show what worked and what didn't. People pick the ones that WORK and eliminate the ones that doesn't.
> 
> ...


The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.


Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.


It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.

Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules.  At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!


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## Urban Trekker (Aug 23, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.



I don't think anyone has ever insinuated that.  I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people who've defended themselves are untrained.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.
> 
> Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules.  At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!


Let us know when you are ready to walk in and have one of those fights.  I am sure we can’t wait to hear about it.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2021)

Urban Trekker said:


> I don't think anyone has ever insinuated that.  I'm fairly certain that the vast majority of people who've defended themselves are untrained.


I appreciate that clarity and perhaps you have not insinuated that.  But it is a common theme around here.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Let us know when you are ready to walk in and have one of those fights.  I am sure we can’t wait to hear about it.


In the next life perhaps.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> In the next life perhaps.


Ah see, it really isn’t for everybody.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ah see, it really isn’t for everybody.


I am too old, and I am not talented.

MA is not for everybody, very few people can be good enough. But when we compare different styles, we compare *ONLY *of the best out of the best of that style. Most people have no place to represent the particular style even they practice the style.

UFC type of fight is for the best of the best. It's for people that think they are good enough and fight through the elimination process to get up there. So whoever goes on pay per view are the very few chosen ones. The question is whether the other styles that talk loud, can find talent to actually get into the Octagon to show the world they can win with their style to proof their style is worthy to be up there and can win.

Of cause, most that learn BJJ cannot make it into the octagon, only Gracie that has the talent be able to get up there to show to the world what BJJ is. Now the whole world knows and respect BJJ. Any style that think they deserve to be up there should put their money where their mouth is, recruit some talented people to learn their style, fight through the UFC elimination process. then show the world how good the style is. It's worth the trouble if you have the goods. Look at BJJ dojo is all over the place, it's world known now. If anyone style truly think they have the goods, put in the effort and stun the world, it will pay off. Don't just trash talk.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 23, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Well, that and this bizarre notion that anybody who doesn’t do MMA or does not train in one of the methods on the short list of what seems to work best in the MMA competition format, is categorically unable to defend themselves, is a bit of a snoozer.


My main style is Tae Kwon Do, a style even heavily used in MMA for their kicking. I would be the first one to admit that if I face with an MMA guy with talent only of my level, train as hard and as long as I trained, I would get my butt whooped. That the guy will eat me for breakfast. Because as good as Tae Kwon Do kicks, it's only ONE dimension. MMA is multi-dimensional fighting skill.

To me, MMA is a complete system, I would have no chance against someone in my level that practice MMA. I would not trash talk MMA. The ONLY way I can even have a chance is eyes gauging and biting.

I cannot stress enough, I am very bitter about this, but it is the truth. Any style think they are better, get into the octagon and win some fights.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It is quite binary who manage to walk out of the octagon!!! I don't think MMA techniques has a short learning curve. Of cause MMA is not everything, nothing can beat eyes gouging and biting, that's a big equalizer. Just where to draw the line. UFC type is the closest to real fighting, might not be perfect, but it's better than the rest of the competition system.
> 
> Like I said, I wish they go back to the rules of UFC1, 2 and 3 which is almost no rules.  At least they should let people hit the back of the head, kick while they are down. The rules are more favorable to grappling and ground work. I keep telling myself if I ever face an MMA fighter, remember to poke their eyes and bite them!!!


Eye gouging and biting aren’t all that much a game changer, in my opinion. But you kind of make my point with your first sentence.


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## geezer (Aug 23, 2021)

Paul Calugaru said:


> ....Most those that practice MMA have little patience for the martial version of "How many *Angles *can stand on the head of a pin"


Agreed. Unless you are an engineer getting paid to work on that kind of thing, I find it pretty abstruse. See for yourself:


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The only issue I have with using MMA competition as a defining measure is that it’s somewhat binary. What performs well enough to be competitive isn’t everything that works. It’s just what works best (applicable to the context and the learning curve is short enough). Whatever passes that test is likely to be effective in most fighting contexts. But that doesn’t mean what doesn’t perform well to that test isn’t effective in some (perhaps many) contexts.



Yeah. But there is no platform for that specialist technique or system to work in context. 

By this argument everything that doesn't work in MMA could work in another environment. 

And that quite simply isn't the case.

So let's say shooting guns doesn’t work well in MMA. We still need to prove somewhere, shooting guns does work. (Which we can do a few ways. That is pretty easy) 

Compare that to standing arm bars which is almost impossible to prove works anywhere.


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## geezer (Aug 23, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Eye gouging and biting aren’t all that much a game changer, in my opinion. But you kind of make my point with your first sentence.


Eye gouging _can_ create an opening, but only if you have the skills to back it up. I remember back in high school (about 50 years ago!!!) we would have challenge matches to see who would represent our school in each weight class when we went up against other schools. 

One time I challenged an older guy named Bob who could always beat me, but I still went in with 100% of what I had. Amazingly, I actually got the take-down and followed it with a really fast pin! Turned out, when I set up my shoot by throwing my hands up high towards his face, I had accidentally _gouged the guy right in the eyes._ Man was he pissed afterward ...and his eyes were all red and tearing profusely. 

Still, Coach gave _me_ the win and let me have the slot to compete in the upcoming match. I asked him why, when Bob was obviously the better wrestler and I had unintentionally broken the rules. He pointed out that the upcoming match wasn't a big deal (more like a practice match), and it would be good experience for me. Besides, if Bob wanted to represent us in the major tournaments later in the season, he better get tough enough to take a little poke in the eyes. 

The coaching strategy worked. If I remember right, after that Bob was undefeated for the rest of the season.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2021)

Eyes gouging and biting is NOT the solution for everything, but if someone like me that don't know anything about ground fighting, that's the ONLY option for bare knuckle fight that at least give me a chance. Grappling is slower, you do have time to search for the eye to poke and find a piece of meat to bite on IF you have a cool head. Let's face it, if you are only a striker, if your back is on the ground, you are DONE!!! At least eye gouging and biting will give you a slight chance.

If you doubt what I said, go to youtube and watch UFC1 and 2 again. Look at how pitiful those strikes were, boxers, Kung Fu, Karate............. If one only know striking kung fu, you seriously think you can do better? Sorry.


Now that I am old, it is normal for people at my age to use a cane. THIS, is the biggest equalizer. I join this forum not to talk about MA and bare knuckle fighting, I know my limit. I am on this forum mostly about cane and stick fight. I just kind of join in when I see something interesting. Now, adding a cane greatly shift the balance. I don't care about going into the ring, for me, it's self defense and survival.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Eyes gouging and biting is NOT the solution for everything, but if someone like me that don't know anything about ground fighting, that's the ONLY option for bare knuckle fight that at least give me a chance. Grappling is slower, you do have time to search for the eye to poke and find a piece of meat to bite on IF you have a cool head. Let's face it, if you are only a striker, if your back is on the ground, you are DONE!!! At least eye gouging and biting will give you a slight chance.
> 
> If you doubt what I said, go to youtube and watch UFC1 and 2 again. Look at how pitiful those strikes were, boxers, Kung Fu, Karate............. If one only know striking kung fu, you seriously think you can do better? Sorry.
> 
> ...


You are still better off going through the correct mechanics of the escape.






So if you are going to bite or poke it should be to achieve these defensive positions. Otherwise just biting or poking can lead to you exposing yourself to more attacks or a worse position

Let's use the Von flue.





This is common with beginners in that they think they have your head then they are winning. But they are exposing themselves to a submission instead. So in reality you have to give up that headlock and do something else.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. But there is no platform for that specialist technique or system to work in context.
> 
> By this argument everything that doesn't work in MMA could work in another environment.
> 
> ...


I agree, in principle. What I think it sometimes missed in the often-binary look is where there are approaches that are less about direct application (some "techniques" in my opinion are actually drills).

With things like standing arm bars, I see them as edge cases. The control methods used in the dojo to get to them are the important part. And understanding how and why they don't work well, and how to transition to something else. And undertanding them for what they are (not restraints, certainly). And sometimes, there are things in a system that are just for fiddling with, to keep students active and practicing the principles. For some of us, that esoteric stuff keeps us going.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Aug 24, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just offhand, I can recall Ramsey Dewey showing techniques he has incorporated from Capoeira, telling the story of the time he got his butt kicked by an old Tai Chi master, and mentioning the time one of his students (who had an Aikido background) pulled off an Aikido throw in sparring that he had never seen someone pull off before. I've also seen him speak approvingly of a variety of other arts.


Just saw this, i think its the way they word it and the fact you are looking at a episonic of their opinion which can also change.   thats where the confusion lays.


Now this has jogged my memory, i think a lot of the MMA/combat sport folks view the more tradtional martial arts as good for supplimentory exercise/something more than just fighting.    And you probbly need to learn fighting through a combat sport to really unlock the TMA's potential.     (at least i sort of got that from dewy, hard2hurt and a few others i watch, or used to)


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## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am too old, and I am not talented.
> 
> MA is not for everybody, very few people can be good enough. But when we compare different styles, we compare *ONLY *of the best out of the best of that style. Most people have no place to represent the particular style even they practice the style.
> 
> ...


Wow.  This is just…wow.


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## Gyakuto (Aug 24, 2021)

The issue is being so open minded that your brain falls out!


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## Zinobile (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?


No.  Some things are meant to be devoured, not discussed


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## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Wow.  This is just…wow.


Truth hurts.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 24, 2021)

The issue with the MMA community is the TMA community. "traditional" martial arts had a moment in its history, where things changed for the worst. In karate, the "grade school" mentality swept away the real martial content. Practitioners from the west, accepted it the way it was, and never sought to bring things back to pre-1800s standards, when they were referred to as "jutsu". The worst thing to happen to karate was the conversion to "do", as in karate-do. 

Except for a small handful of ryuha who use its theories, the whole idea of "ti" - Okinawa's original art, is all but disappeared. 

The truth is that practically every technique used in MMA today originates from the Classical Martial Arts. 

MMA methodology is to isolate techniques. That is no different from the concept of bunkai and oyo practiced in Okinawan dojo. People who say kata are useless, say so out of misinformation and lack of understanding. And this lack comes from the "do" mentality, as it is assumed by the MMA community. 

When you learn a technique in MMA, you learn it step by step, and then you practice it until you can do it on the mat. When the MMA'ers see TMA breaking down and drilling technique for the same purpose, they say: "that will never work against a resisting opponent". It borders on hypocrisy.

Here is the thing though: karate is not a "kick/block/punch" art. It does contain those weapons, but that is only superficial. The fact that it is a fusion of Ti - Okinawa's original art - which is a Newaza, and Boxing Methods from China initially, makes Karate a Grappling art. It uses small joint manipulation AND Ti's Newaza, and the secret to uncovering the Newaza aspect of Karate lies in its Stances and Footwork. 

Herein lies the discrepancy MMA people have with TMA. 

The techniques are not practiced in the original intention, as modern interpretation has gotten in the way of that. Also, everyone became comfortable with this "way" (do) of doing things. 

So in reality - we are one and the same... there. End of argument.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I agree, in principle. What I think it sometimes missed in the often-binary look is where there are approaches that are less about direct application (some "techniques" in my opinion are actually drills).
> 
> With things like standing arm bars, I see them as edge cases. The control methods used in the dojo to get to them are the important part. And understanding how and why they don't work well, and how to transition to something else. And undertanding them for what they are (not restraints, certainly). And sometimes, there are things in a system that are just for fiddling with, to keep students active and practicing the principles. For some of us, that esoteric stuff keeps us going.



In the context of a testing ground though. Arm bars might be some thing you want to do. But they are not going to work outside mma if they don't work in it.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Truth hurts.


I guess if it’s your truth, it might hurt you.  What you describe is not my truth.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Gyakuto said:


> The issue is being so open minded that your brain falls out!



Interestingly I would have though taking an idea. Jumping in the cage and trying it. Is the open minded response. 

I mean does anyone remember when you couldn't kick people in the head on the streets because you get taken down?

I believed that until I saw it tested.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Here is the thing though: karate is not a "kick/block/punch" art. It does contain those weapons, but that is only superficial. The fact that it is a fusion of Ti - Okinawa's original art - which is a Newaza, and Boxing Methods from China initially, makes Karate a Grappling art. It uses small joint manipulation AND Ti's Newaza, and the secret to uncovering the Newaza aspect of Karate lies in its Stances and Footwork.



And here is where the conflict comes up. 

So then as the MMA guy I say great. Let's see that used in context. Let's see karate grappling used in a grappling comp or a MMA fight. 

And then you say you can't because reasons. 

And I dismiss it as something that might be fun subjectively. But not something that will help me grapple someone.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2021)

Rat said:


> And you probbly need to learn fighting through a combat sport to really unlock the TMA's potential.


This is simplified, but it's an essential idea.

Basically, if you know how to fight then you can make a lot of things work. That can include not only high-percentage moves but also techniques which are lower-percentage or highly situational.

There are a lot of martial arts out there which have potentially useful techniques, tactics, and ideas, but have a training methodology which doesn't lead to reliable fighting skill or attributes. Thus, practitioners don't have good luck applying their techniques under stress or in a real fight. (I won't call this a "TMA" issue because I think that term is poorly defined and the problem is definitely not limited to traditional arts anyway.)

In the story I mentioned where Ramsey Dewey talks about seeing his student pull off an Aikido throw in sparring, he went to the student and said "I didn't know that sort of thing could actually work." His student's reply was something along the lines of "Aikido has some good stuff you can use once you know how to fight. The problem is that if you only train Aikido, you don't learn to fight."


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## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess if it’s your truth, it might hurt you.  What you describe is not my truth.


Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?

You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.


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## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Interestingly I would have though taking an idea. Jumping in the cage and trying it. Is the open minded response.
> 
> I mean does anyone remember when you couldn't kick people in the head on the streets because you get taken down?
> 
> I believed that until I saw it tested.


I never understand why people and this thread keep talking. There are UFC gyms all over the country. I have one 3 minutes drive from where I live. Just take their skill and walk into the octagon. I am sure they have a way to let you try out. You don't talk MA, you do it.

Would it be something if a particular style can use there distinct style and beat everyone in the octagon? They will be well known overnight around the world like Grace BJJ. That, is big money business.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2021)

I'm going to put on my moderator hat for a moment and remind everybody that the MartialTalk terms of service prohibit art bashing.

You can express your opinion that certain training methodologies are good or not so good for developing usable skill.
You can express your opinion that certain techniques are effective or not effective.
You can express your opinion that you're waiting to see certain arts or techniques demonstrated under particular circumstances before you accept that they are effective.

What you _can't _say, without violating our TOS, is something like "_(insert art name here) sucks, it's all a big fraud and no one should ever practice it."_

Just a friendly reminder.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?
> 
> You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.


You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.


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## Koryuhoka (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> And here is where the conflict comes up.
> 
> So then as the MMA guy I say great. Let's see that used in context. Let's see karate grappling used in a grappling comp or a MMA fight.
> 
> ...


Well dude.. I'm in my mid 60s and have nerve damage from training injuries. So I'm not personally doing it.. and there go your predicted "reasons". Someone might come along to whom I can teach these ideas. You may be able to see it.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.



The art with ten million people will also just be better. Because you have ten million people working on a problem.

Subjectivity always gets added to these debates and it isn't really as important a factor. 

If you want a technique to work. There are steps you have to go through to make it work. And working at an elite level is kind of one of them. 

You can obviously experience fame in martial arts through other methods than UFC and most of them are easier. Which is why we are having this discussion. If people were not looking for recognition then nobody would be having this discussion.

The ramsey dewey master wong conflict is a good example. You can't say you have nothing to prove too loudly or too often without people figuring out you do have something to prove you just don't want to go prove it. 

Otherwise UFC is a very interesting example because a lot of the techniques that are employed are incredibly basic. They are not master techniques from elite guys that nobody else can learn and be functional in. Which then becomes a very important reference point for your average Joe.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> Well dude.. I'm in my mid 60s and have nerve damage from training injuries. So I'm not personally doing it.. and there go your predicted "reasons". Someone might come along to whom I can teach these ideas. You may be able to see it.



You have students or training partners. Someone who could show his ability in say a beginner grappling competition? 

At least present a case that the system you advocate is functional. And then say. Look I am not that guy. But here is an example of another guy making this idea work.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The art with ten million people will also just be better. Because you have ten million people working on a problem.


Not necessarily. It depends on how much they focus on that problem. If the art with 10mil is filled with people that believe in no-touch-jutsu, or have a standardized sparring set that's crap, while the art with 1thousand spends all their time training actually fighting, and cross-competes, while the cream of their crop might be worse than the cream-of-the-crop from the other style, in generality it might be a better style for fighting. 


drop bear said:


> Subjectivity always gets added to these debates and it isn't really as important a factor.
> 
> If you want a technique to work. There are steps you have to go through to make it work. And working at an elite level is kind of one of them.
> 
> You can obviously experience fame in martial arts through other methods than UFC and most of them are easier. Which is why we are having this discussion. If people were not looking for recognition then nobody would be having this discussion.


Yup, but alan's argument was around why aren't specific people proving themselves in the ring to bring fame to their style. Which isn't everyone's goal. For the people who's goal it is, then alan's questions are legitimate.


----------



## Koryuhoka (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> You have students or training partners. Someone who could show his ability in say a beginner grappling competition?
> 
> At least present a case that the system you advocate is functional. And then say. Look I am not that guy. But here is an example of another guy making this idea work.


That's kind of what the statement you quoted says. I would like to find a complete beginner with whom to do this.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup, but alan's argument was around why aren't specific people proving themselves in the ring to bring fame to their style. Which isn't everyone's goal. For the people who's goal it is, then alan's questions are legitimate.



Almost by definition the people having issues with the MMA community dismissing their style. Are concerned about their styles fame. 

Otherwise being dismissed by the MMA community doesn't factor in.


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're assuming everyone has the same goal of experiencing fame through UFC. You're also assuming that all arts have the same base talent pool to start off with. If 10 million people train one art, and 1 thousand people train another. The most talented people are almost guaranteed to come from the first art.



I don't think I understand.  Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Koryuhoka said:


> That's kind of what the statement you quoted says. I would like to find a complete beginner with whom to do this.



A white belt bjj competition is easy to enter. But they are still functional grapplers.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not necessarily. It depends on how much they focus on that problem. If the art with 10mil is filled with people that believe in no-touch-jutsu, or have a standardized sparring set that's crap, while the art with 1thousand spends all their time training actually fighting, and cross-competes, while the cream of their crop might be worse than the cream-of-the-crop from the other style, in generality it might be a better style for fighting.



Yeah but this isn't a riddle. It isn't where I suddenly reveal the ten million strong style are really cats or something.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't think I understand.  Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?


I just looked it up and 3.6 million people train MMA apparently, however accurate you want to take that result.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> I don't think I understand.  Are you saying 10 million people train in MMA?


I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but  are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.

I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.

The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more exceptional individuals you will find and the more remarkable the top individuals will be. The best guy out of a million is generally going to be better than the best guy out of a thousand.
The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but this isn't a riddle. It isn't where I suddenly reveal the ten million strong style are really cats or something.


But there are styles that have millions of people that are not as effective as styles with less people. Based on quick google searches, and without specifying styles to avoid art bashing, there's a style that has ~10 million "black belts", and ~70 million people overall, per google, that as a whole is much less effective than MMA with 3.6 million people, or the 3 million that do BJJ.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but  are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.
> 
> I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.
> 
> ...


For the record- @drop bear if that second point is the point you are trying to make, then I absolutely agree with it. I just think that there are restrictions that come from some arts being faulty, yet still having those supreme individuals that will make it work against others with better training methodologies.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but  are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.
> 
> I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.
> 
> ...



Sort of. We can look at Australia with 20 million people and then the other powerhouse ufc nations. And still have produced a couple of title belts. 

So it is still achievable with less guys.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> But there are styles that have millions of people that are not as effective as styles with less people. Based on quick google searches, and without specifying styles to avoid art bashing, there's a style that has ~10 million "black belts", and ~70 million people overall, per google, that as a whole is much less effective than MMA with 3.6 million people, or the 3 million that do BJJ.



That is because the system matters.


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I doubt we’re to the point of having 10 million MMA practioners in the world yet, but  are definitely more than 10 million wrestlers out there and wrestling has had a major influence in MMA. Most of the other arts which are commonly found in MMA have large talent pools to draw from.
> 
> I think both drop bear and Monkey Turned Wolf have important points.
> 
> ...


Okay.  There's a certain logic to that, but I really think the training model creates the talent pool. If you had 1000 people training in wrestling for 10 years, how many of those 1000 people would be competent?  We can define "competent" if you like, but I don't have in mind an elite athlete.  Someone who can reliably use their skillset inside and outside of the sport.  I'd say, if they're all training for 10 years, pretty close to 1000.  

If you have 10 million people training in whatever people are envisioning as the "anti-mma" of the day is, how many people would be competent after 10 years?  Only the most talented?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay.  There's a certain logic to that, but I really think the training model creates the talent pool. If you had 1000 people training in wrestling for 10 years, how many of those 1000 people would be competent?  We can define "competent" if you like, but I don't have in mind an elite athlete.  Someone who can reliably use their skillset inside and outside of the sport.  I'd say, if they're all training for 10 years, pretty close to 1000.
> 
> If you have 10 million people training in whatever people are envisioning as the "anti-mma" of the day is, how many people would be competent after 10 years?  Only the most talented?


To clarify my point, a deep talent pool in a given community will produce remarkable individuals and a higher average practitioner in whatever activity that community is actually practicing. If that deep talent pool is a group of people who spend their time punching each other in the face while trying not to get punched themselves, then they’ll probably have a lot of people who are good at that. If the talent pool is people who are doing acrobatic exhibition, then they’ll have a bunch of people who can do amazing flips and stunts. It’s only a talent pool for things you are actually doing.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 24, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The deeper the talent pool of practitioners in an art or sport, the more the art itself will develop and the better the average practitioner will be - provided that the community of practitioners is engaged in sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve via competition and/or inspiration.


I thought I’d add a bit to my own point here. The “sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve” is really key, in two ways.

First, suppose you have a system, “Secret Master Death Touch Do”, which has a million practitioners around the world. However each individual dojo instructor makes his students take a vow of secrecy and loyalty so that they are not allowed to visit other schools or share knowledge with other students of SMDTD. Even if the basic techniques and practice methods of the art are sound, you probably won’t get a lot of outstanding practitioners.

Secondly, suppose you have another art, a rare form of historical wrestling passed down by one family living in Portugal, taught in a school with only 20 students. Now suppose the students of that art decide to go out and compete in Judo and Sambo and Freestyle wrestling tournaments. They watch BJJ instructional videos and Sumo tournaments and talk shop with friends who are catch wrestlers. I’d argue that even if this art only has 20 practitioners, those practitioners are now part of a larger grappling community that encompasses tens of millions of people and they will reap the benefits accordingly.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 24, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


Of course...  Those arts are what make up today's MMA community....  If you want to redefine MMA to actually mean any arts then by all means....

Personally I think it's unfortunate that there is such a huge bias against traditional arts...  I think all people interested in actual combative arts should be excited to bring in more, not less arts....  If anyone can fight with whatever art then let's welcome them....  There are absolutely things useful in almost all martial arts, the more the better.  The more biased people are the more will be lost instead of found...


----------



## Grandmaster Yue men quan (Aug 24, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


Mma, mutilated martial arts. Is a system of taking stuff that works in a game of close the gap, establish grips take down establish a dominant position and a great submission. You can bypass at any step to any other. This is called being well rounded fighter. Whatever style you do you should strive for the same game. Kinda the end of conversation some arts it just takes longer to understand than others.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?
> 
> You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.


Ok so, this is all nonsense.  

here is what I understand about you, based on your own posts:  you are embittered because you perceive that you received poor training when you were younger, and now you feel you are too old to make changes.  The training you got some decades ago failed to prepare you to step into an MMA ring now, at your age.  

Those are your issues that you can deal with, or not.  They are not my issues.  Attempting to project your bitterness and perceived failures does not make them my problems.  I am happy to train as I do; and get this:  I have no interest in fighting for fun and entertainment.   I realize that may be difficult for you and some others to grasp.  Why would someone like me choose to spend a significant portion of his life training in the martial arts, and not want to fight?  I can’t explain it to you. If you can’t understand it, that is your loss, not mine.  

And get this, while I don’t think much about fighting, and pay zero attention to MMA competitions, I still see combative value in what I do. I actually do not live in fear that my training will fail me in any reasonably likely scenario where I might need to defend myself.  

I am sorry that you apparently feel like a failure.  I do not feel that way about myself.  Do what you need to do, to cope with it.  Or don’t.  But when you project this onto others, you are entering a world in which you know nothing.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 24, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Ok so, this is all nonsense.
> 
> here is what I understand about you, based on your own posts:  you are embittered because you perceive that you received poor training when you were younger, and now you feel you are too old to make changes.  The training you got some decades ago failed to prepare you to step into an MMA ring now, at your age.
> 
> ...


I guess I am wasting my breath.

Actually I had good training at the time, the world moved on since MMA. I can see how much better is MMA. I am not blind and admit what I learn is over, I am not stubborn blindly defending what I learn.

Maybe you are right, if I just said Tae Kwon Do is the BEST, I am not interested to prove it, I just want to keep practicing, I would be happier.   I think we should stop talking to each other. Goodbye.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 24, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I guess I am wasting my breath.
> 
> Actually I had good training at the time, the world moved on since MMA. I can see how much better is MMA.


If that works for you, enjoy.


----------



## Argus (Aug 24, 2021)

I think that this thread, and some of the attitudes here, shows what is wrong with *some* of the attitudes around MMA.

The best MMA guys I've met are also some of the best TMA guys I've met, and vice versa. TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts. Sometimes, depending on the TMA and the teacher, it's just up to you to make it functional under pressure. Other times, it's functional right out of the box. Most of the time, it's functional once you understand the context and where it fits in within the approach of the system that you train, and the context that you are testing it out in (which is sometimes appropriate for sportive environments, and sometimes not so appropriate for them).

It's totally fine to say that MMA is the quickest way to reach your goal of competing in a sportive environment, but it's a totally different one to argue that MMA is the one and only best way, and that it has more value than all other arts in all contexts. The first statement is honest and defensible; the second, I believe, is short sighted and a bit arrogant and possibly ignorant.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who continue to train, and see great value in both. I find I tend to learn the most from teachers like this. There are serious limitations, and selective forces at play with any competitive, sportive environment that people don't acknowledge nearly enough. There's a *lot* of very good stuff to learn outside of that context as well, and there are plenty of ways to pressure test it and make it functional too.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2021)

Argus said:


> I think that this thread, and some of the attitudes here, shows what is wrong with *some* of the attitudes around MMA.
> 
> The best MMA guys I've met are also some of the best TMA guys I've met, and vice versa. TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts. Sometimes, depending on the TMA and the teacher, it's just up to you to make it functional under pressure. Other times, it's functional right out of the box. Most of the time, it's functional once you understand the context and where it fits in within the approach of the system that you train, and the context that you are testing it out in (which is sometimes appropriate for sportive environments, and sometimes not so appropriate for them).
> 
> ...



There is kind of a shifting of goal posts that seems a common reaction.

The issue is I don't know if any of the goal post shifting is really viable.

So there are MMA fighters that are legitimately good martial artists. Not even the top tier guys. But the average guys. Who are out on the mats all the time being better at martial arts than everyone in the room.

Then you get the pro fighters who smoke those guys.

Then the champion fighters who smoke those guys.

Then the best of them make it in to the UFC and get smoked in the preliminary you generally don't even see.

The best of them make the under card.

And the best of them get a title belt.

It is not a quick process that lacks depth or understanding. They are just that good.

This seems like a really hard concept for non MMA guys to accept. And it is strange because learning you are not as good as you think you are is one of the first techniques you learn in a combat sport.

Holding on to this idea that you have this extra depth or forbidden techniques if you can't seem to demonstrate that is just an attempt to hold on to an ego that doesn't help you develop.

You are steven segal trying to coach Anderson Silva.





It winds up just being cringy.

Otherwise go out on to a mat and stop some guy with your amazing concepts or specialist knowledge.


----------



## Argus (Aug 24, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is kind of a shifting of goal posts that seems a common reaction.
> 
> The issue is I don't know if any of the goal post shifting is really viable.
> 
> ...



You completely ignored my post. Or maybe didn't even read it.
You're telling me that I and other TMA guys can't train someone to compete in the UFC. Okay... I wasn't saying I could.

You're still stuck on the "UFC / MMA are everything, and the ring is the only martial context that matters" issue. If you think that, I can't really help you. I'd just encourage you to widen your perspective a little bit, and be a little more open minded.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> ..................
> This seems like a really hard concept for non MMA guys to accept. And it is strange because learning you are not as good as you think you are is one of the first techniques you learn in a combat sport.
> 
> Holding on to this idea that you have this extra depth or forbidden techniques if you can't seem to demonstrate that is just an attempt to hold on to an ego that doesn't help you develop.
> ...............................


That.

It is important to learn to be humble and objective AND have an open mind. Hell, I feel good that MMA literally use all the kicks from Tae kwon Do that is my main style, but I can see that it is only one dimension of MMA, MMA have so much more and I'd be the first one to say if I have to fight an MMA guy of just my talent level and at my skill level, I'd be screwed because he know so much more than me.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> .........................
> You're telling me that I and other TMA guys can't train someone to compete in the UFC. Okay... I wasn't saying I could.
> ....................


Does Gracie BJJ originally TMA? Did the first few UFC consisted of all different TMA people? That's how it all started. I remember there was a Wing Chun guy, a Ninjitsu guy in UFC2. They just got the butt handed to them. There were Jodo, Karate and other styles. Just process of elimination what works and what doesn't. I don't think there is anything called MMA for quite a few years. In fact, MMA is a combination of technique that works from all different styles. They only pick technique that works.

I've been waiting since the 90s for more TMA to win in UFC, I hope someone can step up and use their own style to compete in UFC. This is where all talks end and rubber hits the road. There is big money in it if anyone has the goods. Look at Gracie BJJ, One Royce Gracie put BJJ on the map and look at all the schools they have all over the place. Royce Gracie just won the first 3 or so UFC, then he got his butt handed to him by Matt Huges later. But still, he put BJJ on the world map and become a big business.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> You completely ignored my post. Or maybe didn't even read it.
> You're telling me that I and other TMA guys can't train someone to compete in the UFC. Okay... I wasn't saying I could.
> 
> You're still stuck on the "UFC / MMA are everything, and the ring is the only martial context that matters" issue. If you think that, I can't really help you. I'd just encourage you to widen your perspective a little bit, and be a little more open minded.



Of course TMA guys can train people to be in the UFC. You see guys like Dan Kelly and Judo. Or machida or wonder boy in karate. 

They just train a system that produces very good martial artists. 

You potentially don't have a system that produces as high quality martial artists. And that is fine. But you seem to want to be treated as if you do have a system that does. Why do you think you get that for free?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> In the context of a testing ground though. Arm bars might be some thing you want to do. But they are not going to work outside mma if they don't work in it.


This is that binary thing I was talking about. There are many things I can do reliably (in the right situation) against someone untrained or poorly trained - including folks not trained for grappling or grappling defense - but which will not work against a trained MMA fighter. So there are things that don't work (or don't work often enough) in MMA that can actually come into play outside MMA. And that's without even considering the difference in intent or objective.

So I think it's safe to say there's very little that works in MMA competition that doesn't work (sometimes in a more limited application) outside that context. But MMA doesn't serve to disprove as much as it serves to prove. Does that make sense?

MMA is probably the most efficient complete approach (boxing is probably the most efficient incomplete approach) to fighting skills.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Like I said, proof it in the octagon. Don't you have talented people that can measure up? If the style is really that good, they should be able to go up there and whoop their butt and they will be so admired around the world.....Just like BJJ. You see Grace BJJ schools and other JJ schools popped up all over the place? You don't want that?
> 
> You are in SF, you know there is a big UFC gym in Sunnyvale where I live, it's only 1 hour away. You might have one closer than that, check it out. Don't talk to a non talented old person like me, take a visit, I am sure there is a way for you to get into the octagon and have a try. My wife goes there to workout, they sure have an Octagon there. I am sure is not for show only. That's where rubber hits the road, where all talks end and show what you have.


You appear to assume everyone has the same motives you do.

You also appear to assume anyone who disagrees is uninformed (hence, your suggestion to try an MMA gym).

And you get back to the binary bit: either it kicks butt in the octagon, or it doesn't work. There's a world of room between those two points.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I never understand why people and this thread keep talking.


It's a forum. It's what you joined to do, I assume.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The art with ten million people will also just be better. Because you have ten million people working on a problem.


Assuming they are. BJJ is an example of where this happens. I'm not sure all arts did the same at their height of popularity. Or maybe it was just a different definition of the "problem".

I don't think my base art grew (developed) much at its peak of popularity. It was never very big (I'd bet fewer than 10,000 practitioners even then), but didn't seem focused on improvement in that way.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Not necessarily. It depends on how much they focus on that problem. If the art with 10mil is filled with people that believe in no-touch-jutsu, or have a standardized sparring set that's crap, while the art with 1thousand spends all their time training actually fighting, and cross-competes, while the cream of their crop might be worse than the cream-of-the-crop from the other style, in generality it might be a better style for fighting.


Yep. Let's not forget that at one point BJJ didn't have a very large talent pool. It had a few very determined (and possibly very talented) people who were intent on solving the problem.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Almost by definition the people having issues with the MMA community dismissing their style. Are concerned about their styles fame.
> 
> Otherwise being dismissed by the MMA community doesn't factor in.


I don't think that's necessarily true. If someone insults my art, they don't challenge its fame at all, since it never had any. Perhaps reputation is a better term?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is kind of a shifting of goal posts that seems a common reaction.
> 
> The issue is I don't know if any of the goal post shifting is really viable.
> 
> ...


I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that MMA was a quick and shallow method of development. The point I think you're referring to in the post you quoted appears to be more about the "other stuff" often contained in TMA. 

There's stuff I teach and work on that is more about developing the body in ways that will make it more capable at 70 or 80 years old. And there are drills and exercises I include because people can continue to use them if they stop training with me, to keep their body healthier. There are even some things I do because it keeps the lightly-committed practicing and getting better and healthier.

Those things don't make much impact on fighting ability, so don't make much sense in the context of just training to fight. That's part of the "do" in my system. If you just took those things out, it'd be better suited to learning to fight (because you'd gain back that time for more combat-focused activity).

I don't think MMA not (normally) having that kind of focus makes it shallow. It just makes it more focused. That's its strength.


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I never understand why people and this thread keep talking.


Well, since you're one of those people still talking in this thread, you should be able to answer your own question.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yep. Let's not forget that at one point BJJ didn't have a very large talent pool. It had a few very determined (and possibly very talented) people who were intent on solving the problem.


I sort of addressed that issue in my post here:


Tony Dismukes said:


> I thought I’d add a bit to my own point here. The “sharing information and training methods and pushing each other to improve” is really key, in two ways.
> 
> First, suppose you have a system, “Secret Master Death Touch Do”, which has a million practitioners around the world. However each individual dojo instructor makes his students take a vow of secrecy and loyalty so that they are not allowed to visit other schools or share knowledge with other students of SMDTD. Even if the basic techniques and practice methods of the art are sound, you probably won’t get a lot of outstanding practitioners.
> 
> Secondly, suppose you have another art, a rare form of historical wrestling passed down by one family living in Portugal, taught in a school with only 20 students. Now suppose the students of that art decide to go out and compete in Judo and Sambo and Freestyle wrestling tournaments. They watch BJJ instructional videos and Sumo tournaments and talk shop with friends who are catch wrestlers. I’d argue that even if this art only has 20 practitioners, those practitioners are now part of a larger grappling community that encompasses tens of millions of people and they will reap the benefits accordingly.


During the time before BJJ had millions of practitioners, they were busy training with, competing against, and stealing anything that worked from exponents of Judo, wrestling, lutra livre, Sambo, and other arts. Without the expanded talent pool of all those other arts, BJJ would not have been nearly as effective.


----------



## Steve (Aug 25, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> To clarify my point, a deep talent pool in a given community will produce remarkable individuals and a higher average practitioner in whatever activity that community is actually practicing. If that deep talent pool is a group of people who spend their time punching each other in the face while trying not to get punched themselves, then they’ll probably have a lot of people who are good at that. If the talent pool is people who are doing acrobatic exhibition, then they’ll have a bunch of people who can do amazing flips and stunts. It’s only a talent pool for things you are actually doing.


Talent and an earnest desire to learn something don't alone produce skill.  If you take talented people and give them poor instruction, they will end up performing poorly.  Some exceptional people may succeed entirely on their own in spite of the training.  I don't disagree with the point.  I just think it could be misleading.  

Simply put, if you're evaluating a system, the elite practitioners in that system can misrepresent the quality of the training, because a person of exceptional talent can make things work that are unrealistic for the rank and file.  A system with 10 million people may be a terrible system if there 10,000 elite practitioners and 9,990,000 people floundering.  

So, in a system, I'm less interested in traits that are unique to each individual, and more interested in how many people who excel vs those who do not, along with the grown and development of those who don't have exceptional traits.  All this to say that a much more interesting question for me is how reliably does a system teach untalented people?  

Which is why I'd say if you take 1000 people and they train in wrestling for 10 years, how many will be competent?  I think the number would be very close to 1000.  You trained in BJJ and many other things, and are a black belt.  You have also described yourself as having average talent and athleticism.  So, how did that happen?  Is it repeatable?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> Talent and an earnest desire to learn something don't alone produce skill. If you take talented people and give them poor instruction, they will end up performing poorly. Some exceptional people may succeed entirely on their own in spite of the training. I don't disagree with the point. I just think it could be misleading.
> 
> Simply put, if you're evaluating a system, the elite practitioners in that system can misrepresent the quality of the training, because a person of exceptional talent can make things work that are unrealistic for the rank and file. A system with 10 million people may be a terrible system if there 10,000 elite practitioners and 9,990,000 people floundering.


I don't disagree, but the point about the talent pool still stands. I'll step away from martial arts and use guitar playing as an example.

In my opinion, based on many years as a musician, the quality of instruction received by guitar players ranges from non-existent (completely self-taught), to poor, to mediocre, to good, and all the way up to excellent. However I would estimate that the large majority fall into the bucket of having poor-to-mediocre instruction. (Which helps explain why so many would be musicians quit before reaching competent skills. That said, we still have tons of absolutely amazing guitar players out there - many of whom are self-taught or who have received poor or minimal instruction. This is partly due to the sheer number of people who try the instrument, but also the examples of what is possible do a lot to inspire upcoming guitarists to aim higher and work harder.


Steve said:


> So, in a system, I'm less interested in traits that are unique to each individual, and more interested in how many people who excel vs those who do not, along with the grown and development of those who don't have exceptional traits. All this to say that a much more interesting question for me is how reliably does a system teach untalented people?


Yep. Interestingly, I don't know that the top fight gyms are actually the best at teaching untalented students. I think they often just work on attracting the most talented and driven individuals and set them to pushing each other ("iron sharpens iron"). Personally I'm more focused on figuring the best way to teach people without those natural talents or attributes.


Steve said:


> You trained in BJJ and many other things, and are a black belt. You have also described yourself as having average talent and athleticism. So, how did that happen? Is it repeatable?


I _wish _I had started out with natural talent and athleticism. I'd be a lot better by now. I think it's more accurate to say that I started out in the bottom 1% in terms of talent, athleticism, and general fitness. The good news is that I think this gives me more insight in teaching students who start out with a similar lack of ability.


----------



## Mider (Aug 25, 2021)

Grandmaster Yue men quan said:


> Mma, mutilated martial arts. Is a system of taking stuff that works in a game of close the gap, establish grips take down establish a dominant position and a great submission. You can bypass at any step to any other. This is called being well rounded fighter. Whatever style you do you should strive for the same game. Kinda the end of conversation some arts it just takes longer to understand than others.


Not what I was discussing though, I’m saying as a martial artist one should be open minded


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I sort of addressed that issue in my post here:
> 
> During the time before BJJ had millions of practitioners, they were busy training with, competing against, and stealing anything that worked from exponents of Judo, wrestling, lutra livre, Sambo, and other arts. Without the expanded talent pool of all those other arts, BJJ would not have been nearly as effective.


Good point. By reaching beyond their limited group, they effectively enlarged the talent pool working on the problem.


----------



## Steve (Aug 25, 2021)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't disagree, but the point about the talent pool still stands. I'll step away from martial arts and use guitar playing as an example.
> 
> In my opinion, based on many years as a musician, the quality of instruction received by guitar players ranges from non-existent (completely self-taught), to poor, to mediocre, to good, and all the way up to excellent. However I would estimate that the large majority fall into the bucket of having poor-to-mediocre instruction. (Which helps explain why so many would be musicians quit before reaching competent skills. That said, we still have tons of absolutely amazing guitar players out there - many of whom are self-taught or who have received poor or minimal instruction. This is partly due to the sheer number of people who try the instrument, but also the examples of what is possible do a lot to inspire upcoming guitarists to aim higher and work harder.
> 
> ...


I think we're really close to saying the same thing.  I agree with everything you've said.  I'm simply trying to point out that talent is a uncontrollable variable, unless your goal is recruitment (i.e., my goal is to recruit top talent vs my goal is to refine my training model).  If the latter, it's more useful (IMO) to presume that talent is an intangible trait, like athleticism, coordination, optimism, or resilience.  You can improve these things over time, but they are traits, not skills.  If the goal is to teach everyone skill regardless of their traits, then looking only at the best case scenarios can be misleading.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> In fact, MMA is a combination of technique that works from all different styles. They only pick technique that works.


The problem in your reasoning here is that you are taking the above notion and translating it into meaning “if it isn’t used in MMA then it does not work.”

that is simply not true.


----------



## Steve (Aug 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> The problem in your reasoning here is that you are taking the above notion and translating it into meaning “if it isn’t used in MMA then it does not work.”
> 
> that is simply not true.


I took it as the opposite, "if you aren't sure if it works, use it in MMA and you will find out."   And that is quite true.


----------



## Mider (Aug 25, 2021)

I’m glad to see on the net and many places TMA are resurfacing as people adapt them to the modern world like Kali with the Dog Brothers or certain mma guys do wing Chun n Kung fu


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.

Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.

That was ok, they did not know before. THE WORST is after that, they INSIST on keeping the traditional, refuse to modify, they still practice what was taught over 100 years ago hoping to have a different result. Maybe in US, people learn to be a little open minded. But in China( I can't speak for Japan and others), they honor tradition, they feel that is respect to the founder and absolutely refuse to change. Thereby, 30 years later, they still cannot get into the octagon as they have no chance to pass the elimination fights to get to big time. Instead they invalidate MMA, saying " I don't want to show because I don't want people to learn it",  or  " It's too deadly to use it" or " I am above all these and I have no interest to compete".

This is 2021, things work differently, MMA learn from other sports, film, analyze, figure a way to solve the puzzle rather being stubborn and start bad mouthing( very common in Hong Kong amount those so called "masters").

Please, go to youtube and look for Xu Ziaodung, that said it all. Instead of changing, they put a $20K price to anyone that can beat him. Government sanction him, make him paint his face before he can fight. Don't they ever learn? I am Chinese, I was from Hong Kong, I saw all the BS first hand. Look at how they castigated Bruce Lee because Lee combine the best of few styles and whoop their butts. You should listen all the bad mouthing and claimed they can beat Lee AFTER Lee died. I was there at the time and I heard all of it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.
> 
> Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.
> 
> ...


I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received.  That is a real bummer.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received.  That is a real bummer.


Nop, I chose the best at the time. It was 1984, I looked for one that was more modern, I found a Tae Kwon Do school that really taught kickboxing which is new at the time due to influence from Bruce Lee. We used boxing hands instead. We did not do forms until 2 weeks before belt test. Forms are USELESS and the teacher did not want to waste time on it. Instead, we held bags for each other and let the other person punch and kick to get use to the impact on the body. It was new at the time while all the other MA still doing those useless moves punching under the shoulder, big horse stand and all the useless moves.

I am just too old to learn MMA only, not that I had bad training. *At least I can say most MMA KICKS are originated from Tae Kwon Do. At least I can say I learned a good system*. Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA. How many Kung Fu can say that? Only one I saw so far is Wing Chun step kick to the knee. Not to mention I picked the school that taught boxing hands instead of the traditional Tae Kwon Do.

Time change, MMA replace kick boxing. If only Kung Fu have an open mind, open to change, one day, they might win in the octagon.



EDIT:

I almost forgot, I did got scammed, I was fooled into learning IRON PALM, fooled by the hype of all the "magic". 3 long years of practicing, I got NOTHING other than two carpal tunnels. That, I am very bitter.

The Tae Kwon Do class was by Lee Lawler of Lawler's Tae Kwon Do in Daly City. That was a good school. It was 1984, not only we moved beyond tradition forms and got into kick boxing with boxing hands, Mr. Lawler even invited a Jujitsu Instructor every other month over to teach arm bar, locks and all. This is 1984, we were laughing......why!!! Now we all know. Mr. Lawler is very forward thinking. Can most of the other masters say that?

I am teaching kick boxing to my grand daughter, I was looking up Lawler's Tae Kwon Do, apparently he retired since the pandemic, too bad, that would be a good place to start for her. Mr. Lawler must be close to 75 now.


----------



## Unkogami (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> ....Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA.....


Or not.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Unkogami said:


> Or not.


You know Tae Kwon Do? Kicks is about 1/3 of MMA today, other third is mostly boxing hands. Then 1/3 is JJ and wrestling. It's split pretty even.

Most kicks in MMA today are from Tae Kwon Do. We learned all those kicks in the class. You saw the UFC fights now, they even started using spin hook kicks to the head, hook kicks that I thought were not very practical at the time. The only kick that has nothing to do with Tae Kwon Do is the step kick to the knee, that actually is from Wing Chun which I learn for a little while.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that MMA was a quick and shallow method of development. The point I think you're referring to in the post you quoted appears to be more about the "other stuff" often contained in TMA.
> 
> There's stuff I teach and work on that is more about developing the body in ways that will make it more capable at 70 or 80 years old. And there are drills and exercises I include because people can continue to use them if they stop training with me, to keep their body healthier. There are even some things I do because it keeps the lightly-committed practicing and getting better and healthier.
> 
> ...



I see and MMA and those feeder arts don't do those things?

From the post I replied to. 

"TMA's tend to be quite a bit more esoteric, conceptual, and philosophical, and slower to learn, and so many people who are interested in just becoming as competitive as quickly as possible, and are only focused on competition, understandably don't have patience for them -- but there's a lot to be learned from TMA's as well as more competitive arts. 

It's totally fine to say that MMA is the quickest way to reach your goal of competing in a sportive environment, but it's a totally different one to argue that MMA is the one and only best way, and that it has more value than all other arts in all contexts. The first statement is honest and defensible; the second, I believe, is short sighted and a bit arrogant and possibly ignorant.

Like I said, there are a lot of people who continue to train, and see great value in both. I find I tend to learn the most from teachers like this. There are serious limitations, and selective forces at play with any competitive, sportive environment that people don't acknowledge nearly enough. There's a *lot* of very good stuff to learn outside of that context as well, and there are plenty of ways to pressure test it and make it functional too.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I’m sorry you are disappointed with the training you received.  That is a real bummer.


Don't be. He is better off having figured that out.


----------



## Unkogami (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You know Tae Kwon Do? Kicks is about 1/3 of MMA today, .....


Every kick is NOT TKD.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> This is that binary thing I was talking about. There are many things I can do reliably (in the right situation) against someone untrained or poorly trained - including folks not trained for grappling or grappling defense - but which will not work against a trained MMA fighter. So there are things that don't work (or don't work often enough) in MMA that can actually come into play outside MMA. And that's without even considering the difference in intent or objective.



Yeah you have gone for this argument a few times. And honestly it is pretty silly. 

Moves that work on a MMA guy also work on an untrained guy. And generally they work better. 

Why would you learn moves that only work against guys that can't fight?

Apart from the joke value of pulling moves like that off on untrained guys.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Unkogami said:


> Every kick is NOT TKD.


Mostly, we learn all those. Like I said, step kick is distinctly not Tae Kwon Do, that's Wing Chun.

Oh another one that cannot be claimed as TKD, foot stomping!!! That was brought on by Marco Ruhas( spelling) early in UFC. You see people occasionally using it.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Steve said:


> I think we're really close to saying the same thing.  I agree with everything you've said.  I'm simply trying to point out that talent is a uncontrollable variable, unless your goal is recruitment (i.e., my goal is to recruit top talent vs my goal is to refine my training model).  If the latter, it's more useful (IMO) to presume that talent is an intangible trait, like athleticism, coordination, optimism, or resilience.  You can improve these things over time, but they are traits, not skills.  If the goal is to teach everyone skill regardless of their traits, then looking only at the best case scenarios can be misleading.



Yeah. Sort of. You can do both. 

But  the question is can average soccer mum who is middling ability in a MMA gym take on kung fu sifu from another gym? 

And so when we are presenting the exceptional guys. Even if you fall short you may still be miles above everyone else. 

Tony is a hobbiest, said that he is not naturally talented, probably won't have a professional MMA career. But in terms of talent. Probably miles better in application and knowledge than lot of systems who are selling similar outcomes. 

The bar is set really low. 

Or again we could look at Ramsay Dewey and Master Wong beef. Ramsey dewey isn't an exceptional MMA fighter. And there is very little doubt how that one would go.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Why would you learn moves that only work against guys that can't fight?
> 
> Apart from the joke value of pulling moves like that off on untrained guys.


I don't think this is what's going on, all due respect to those relating their experience....

Without writing a book on this...  All those training in whatever form or art are at some level of skill...  I think the person in question can pull a move off on some but not others not because one can't fight and the other is MMA it's because one person is better than he is.  

Take an MMA person who has trained for 6 months and there will be a boatload of moves he won't be able to make work against guys training for 2 years....  That doesn't mean the move sucks, it means his attributes are not there yet and definitely not up to where the other person is....


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> I don't think this is what's going on, all due respect to those relating their experience....
> 
> Without writing a book on this...  All those training in whatever form or art are at some level of skill...  I think the person in question can pull a move off on some but not others not because one can't fight and the other is MMA it's because one person is better than he is.
> 
> Take an MMA person who has trained for 6 months and there will be a boatload of moves he won't be able to make work against guys training for 2 years....  That doesn't mean the move sucks, it means his attributes are not there yet and definitely not up to where the other person is....



Yeah. You would think that was the case. But unfortunately it isn't. 

We are talking moves that work because the opponent has made a bunch of fundamental mistakes. 

Krav maga blitzing or blasting? Is a good example. And while it is a cornerstone defence for them if you ever watch krav guys spar you never see that move.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. You would think that was the case. But unfortunately it isn't.
> 
> We are talking moves that work because the opponent has made a bunch of fundamental mistakes.
> 
> Krav maga blitzing or blasting? Is a good example. And while it is a cornerstone defence for them if you ever watch krav guys spar you never see that move.


I'm not familiar with that move... 

In the post what was said was that this person can use some move on low level people but not on higher level people (essentially)...  I mean that speaks for itself.... If in fact the move can be done in an alive manner, like in sparring with persons A and B but not C, etc.... 

Now, if he can't really use that move on anyone because he meant like "in theory" that's a whole nother can-o-beans....  Some TMA folks don't spar....  They can't make this statement...

Then there are high % moves and lower % moves etc....


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The bar is set really low.


Consider the challenge of selling martial arts classes to regular people...  They want to learn how to fight really well without actually fighting, (many of them)...  So you have them do part 1 and part 2 in a fighting class but leave out the alive resistance training and hope for the best...  Low bar required...

Then everyone says, "See that system or TMA doesn't work..." lol


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> Consider the challenge of selling martial arts classes to regular people...  They want to learn how to fight really well without actually fighting, (many of them)...  So you have them do part 1 and part 2 in a fighting class but leave out the alive resistance training and hope for the best...  Low bar required...
> 
> Then everyone says, "See that system or TMA doesn't work..." lol



That system doesn't work.

Imagine selling weight loss to people who refuse to give up pizza. 

Do you have them give up pizza? or do you have people just never loose weight?

Then they say their weight loss program doesn't work.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> I'm not familiar with that move...
> 
> In the post what was said was that this person can use some move on low level people but not on higher level people (essentially)...  I mean that speaks for itself.... If in fact the move can be done in an alive manner, like in sparring with persons A and B but not C, etc....
> 
> ...



Ok bursting.





It relies not only on the guy throwing a poor telegraphic punch but also throwing it at half speed.

As soon as you add real speed or a bit of randomness or tighten that punch in to a hook. You are basically out of luck.

Even an overhand which should be perfect for that punch, doesn't fit because they either come too fast, is thrown off the back of other punches or they move their head.

So it is a move trained specifically for a bad puncher.

But any sort of normal punch defence will work against a bad punch. You don't need a specific defense to terrible fighters.

Now you can learn it if you are slick and fighting gumbies and you are mocking them. But for any sort of serious self defence you just don't do it.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> That system doesn't work.
> 
> Imagine selling weight loss to people who refuse to give up pizza.
> 
> ...


No it does...  It gives those people a slight edge over those who don't drill, hit bags and so on....and it does it without fighting or sparring...  

You said that "system"  But what I'm talking about is blaming an Art because these schools are selling something that people want to buy...  You can train many arts curriculum and not spar or fight. You could even do it with Judo, just leave out the randori...  

Fighting is hard, dangerous and many regular people will not do it... they don't want to do it but want to drill moves, hit bags and learn something that will build some attributes...  I mean this is real, whether you like it or not....


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Why are we talking about technique against ordinary people that don't know anything? Anything you train is better than nothing!!! Even if you do weight training, it's better off than ones that don't because you can throw them around. That doesn't mean weight training is effective in beating people!!!

You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.

Also, I NEVER assume people don't know how to fight, I assume they do. How can you keep talking about facing someone that don't?!!! You might be in for a brutal awakening!!! Hell, I spent almost 3 years in TKD, 9 months in Judo and some Wing Chun, I have been keeping in shape for the last 30+ years not only on this, but weight training. If I look at people that don't know how to fight, of cause chances are I can whoop their butt regardless of their age and can be even a little bigger than me!!! BUT, I NEVER think like that. I learn to be humble, assuming everyone know and learn how to fight.

Hell, I can still out bench press, out bicep cure and out lift some young kids in the gym, BUT, I mainly looking at those that bench 225lbs or even 315lbs and bicep cure over 50lbs dumbbells. *YOU COMPARE WITH THE STRONG, NOT WITH THE WEAK*!!! Hell, I join a workmen's gym rather the yuppy gym. I've been to gyms that it's not common for men to bench press over 135lbs!!!! I do NOT want to go to those gyms to feel good!!! Hell, now I work out at home, I still do pushup with feet on the chain, wearing 60lbs weight jacket and do 5 sets of 22reps of pushups. AGAIN, I am 68!!!

Now I am working very hard on stick fight, I assume people know MA, this still gives me a distinct advantage over them as I have a cane.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> No it does...  It gives those people a slight edge over those who don't drill, hit bags and so on....and it does it without fighting or sparring...
> 
> You said that "system"  But what I'm talking about is blaming an Art because these schools are selling something that people want to buy...  You can train many arts curriculum and not spar or fight. You could even do it with Judo, just leave out the randori...
> 
> Fighting is hard, dangerous and many regular people will not do it... they don't want to do it but want to drill moves, hit bags and learn something that will build some attributes...  I mean this is real, whether you like it or not....



Yeah.

Correct.

If people want to buy junk they are idiots. If people sell that junk they are unethical.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Ok bursting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok yes that move is probably not a real move...

How to know?  Have someone show how they can use it in sparring against a resisting person....  If they can then I'd say it's real, if not then I'd say it's BS...  I call people out all the time for showing some moves when they know what attack is coming, that's not sparring or fighting it's called a drill and when you know what's coming you can do anything....


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.


How could you in any reasonable way be serious about that position?  This is a rush to judgement without understanding the problem.... 

There's nothing about those fights that is an incitement of an art or style...  Those guys went down because they had no experience fighting grapplers... LOL  That's is all...   A great boxer would also have went down and it's no indictment of boxing....


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> Ok yes that move is probably not a real move...
> 
> How to know?  Have someone show how they can use it in sparring against a resisting person....  If they can then I'd say it's real, if not then I'd say it's BS...  I call people out all the time for showing some moves when they know what attack is coming, that's not sparring or fighting it's called a drill and when you know what's coming you can do anything....



Yeah the drills need to come from live training experience.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> I see and MMA and those feeder arts don't do those things?


The MMA folks I've talked to and played with only ever mentioned drills focused on the skills for direct application. It's possible some MMA places add in exercises that don't have efficient translation to fighting skill and things designed to be used if you stop training - I've just never heard anyone mention them.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> The MMA folks I've talked to and played with only ever mentioned drills focused on the skills for direct application. It's possible some MMA places add in exercises that don't have efficient translation to fighting skill and things designed to be used if you stop training - I've just never heard anyone mention them.















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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah you have gone for this argument a few times. And honestly it is pretty silly.
> 
> Moves that work on a MMA guy also work on an untrained guy. And generally they work better.
> 
> ...


I feel like you're arguing against a stance I haven't taken. Yes, stuff that works against a trained fighter will work elsewhere.

Why learn things that aren't likely to work against someone who's highly trained? A few reasons. Firstly, I doubt I'll ever need to deal with someone who's highly trained. If I do, and they are currently in serious training, I'll be in trouble, regardless, since I'm not in heavy training. Secondly, some of this stuff is just fun to play with. As long as I find it has some reasonable application, I'm happy with it.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I feel like you're arguing against a stance I haven't taken. Yes, stuff that works against a trained fighter will work elsewhere.
> 
> Why learn things that aren't likely to work against someone who's highly trained? A few reasons. Firstly, I doubt I'll ever need to deal with someone who's highly trained. If I do, and they are currently in serious training, I'll be in trouble, regardless, since I'm not in heavy training. Secondly, some of this stuff is just fun to play with. As long as I find it has some reasonable application, I'm happy with it.



No.

If you get in to a self defense fight you need high percentage techniques. This will improve your chances regardless as to their skill level. There is no "well I will probably fight an untrained guy" 

Otherwise learn any old thing you want for fun. 

Getting those two ideas confused will hurt you at some point.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Mobility is the new Black
> 
> 
> Literally everyone in BJJ needs this. Give us 10 days to convert you into a believer, and change the way you train forever!
> ...


That's very cool. Again, this seems to be unusual within MMA. That may simply be my perception. If it is, I'm confused by some of the complaints I've heard MMA folks put forth about TMA - forms and other exercises not being effective for teaching fighting.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> How could you in any reasonable way be serious about that position?  This is a rush to judgement without understanding the problem....
> 
> There's nothing about those fights that is an incitement of an art or style...  Those guys went down because they had no experience fighting grapplers... LOL  That's is all...   A great boxer would also have went down and it's no indictment of boxing....


So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.

That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years. I watch a lot of UFC, just by the way they fight, I can even tell how old is the fight because they *CONSTANTLY changing and improving.*


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> If you get in to a self defense fight you need high percentage techniques. This will improve your chances regardless as to their skill level. There is no "well I will probably fight an untrained guy"
> 
> ...


You make this argument a lot. If the training teaches how to recognize the opportunity, then having edge-case techniques isn't a problem. If the opportunity never comes up, then no big deal. You just go back to the foundational stuff that is available more often. Including some esoteric bits doesn't preclude having good foundational material.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.
> 
> That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years.


Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Nop, I chose the best at the time. It was 1984, I looked for one that was more modern, I found a Tae Kwon Do school that really taught kickboxing which is new at the time due to influence from Bruce Lee. We used boxing hands instead. We did not do forms until 2 weeks before belt test. Forms are USELESS and the teacher did not want to waste time on it. Instead, we held bags for each other and let the other person punch and kick to get use to the impact on the body. It was new at the time while all the other MA still doing those useless moves punching under the shoulder, big horse stand and all the useless moves.
> 
> I am just too old to learn MMA only, not that I had bad training. *At least I can say most MMA KICKS are originated from Tae Kwon Do. At least I can say I learned a good system*. Tae Kwon Do kicks is 1/3 of the MMA. How many Kung Fu can say that? Only one I saw so far is Wing Chun step kick to the knee. Not to mention I picked the school that taught boxing hands instead of the traditional Tae Kwon Do.
> 
> ...


well look at that:  I began training in 1984 too.  Looks like we have something in common after all.

I've experienced some less-than-optimal training as well, along the way.  I moved on and found something else that I felt was better.  That's how its done. 

With all due respect, you spend three years training TKD some decades ago, and another few months with some other things.  That is not a lot of instruction.  I have no problem with your enthusiasm for MMA.  _De gustibus non disputandum est. _ If you like it, nobody can dispute that.  It's just that MMA isn't the venue or the approach for everyone.  Anyone who likes it should pursue it, watch it, as much as they want.  There is nothing wrong with that.

But I think your relativly short round of actual instruction may be clouding your view.  You see MMA as the answer to it all.  Maybe for you it is.  But you are unable to recognize that it simply isn't, for others.

I dunno what to tell you.  I think you have some issues to work out.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That's very cool. Again, this seems to be unusual within MMA. That may simply be my perception. If it is, I'm confused by some of the complaints I've heard MMA folks put forth about TMA - forms and other exercises not being effective for teaching fighting.



Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> well look at that:  I began training in 1984 too.  Looks like we have something in common after all.
> 
> I've experienced some less-than-optimal training as well, along the way.  I moved on and found something else that I felt was better.  That's how its done.
> 
> ...



Present a functional alternative.

Which is the element that is sorely lacking in this discussion.

Something that doesn't sound like a religious experience.

"You may not believe but I felt the spaghetti monsters light in my soul so I know the truth"

"I was walking down the street and the spirit of Odin pushed me out of the way of a speeding car. So I know it works"

Kind of thing.


----------



## Koryuhoka (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Well, we are going nowhere talking in abstract way, let's talk more technical.
> 
> Most ( most) striking Kung Fu, have no ground game. They have NO defense against tackling. They can have very good strikes, the problem facing a grappler is you only have ONE chance, just one punch before the grappler is way close up to you and trip you to the ground. Once you are on the ground, you are just a piece of meat. It is that simple. Go on youtube and watch the first 3 UFC where there was no MMA or anything, everyone were TMA. It is so pitiful those strikers, kung fu, karate, boxing just got thrown to the ground. They couldn't even touch the grappler and were flat on the ground already.
> 
> ...


Classical martial arts DO have defenses against the "ground game" and other tactics used in MMA.

The fact that no one has bothered to do the work of breaking down and analyzing the movements within the forms does not make them absent. People are just too hung up on seeing "flowery" or what they consider "useless" movements that they become blinded by misconceptions.

No one in the Classical Martial Arts communities has bothered to sit and look at what is being used in MMA.

I have, what I believe is an extensive curriculum of Brazilian Jiujitsu. When I watch this material, I am constantly noticing movements in the techniques that are found in the arts I trained in, and others of which I am familiar.

I realize that BJJ is just one component of MMA.

My point is that one cannot say theirs works, but the other's does not, simply because they all contain variations of the same techniques.

One should say:

(insert name of art) martial art does not work IN THE MMA THEATRE, because those who are teaching and practicing it, are not, or do not know how to apply it in that environment.

It has to be worded that way, because I worked, for many years, in protective services - Personal, Executive/Celebrity, Music and Fashion venues. All I ever trained in was Classical Martial Arts of Okinawa and China. I had my share of live engagements and have 2 successful knife disarms. Went home unscathed every time, and I owe that to my training. No one can deny me my experiences. I also understand that was a different arena, but if we are talking about effectiveness of martial arts as a whole...

This is my issue with the MMA community. We all do the same thing. But most of us have not all been applying it in its fullness.

It is irresponsible and inexcusable for this to have happened, but do not blame the art.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.


as can a competent kung fu guy.  or karate guy.  or TKD guy. or...name whatever style you want here...


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> So, should they learn from that? They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers, how come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash? That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.
> 
> That's why MMA is far superior because the moment they got their butts handed to them, they stop, evaluate, strategize and improve, like solving the puzzle instead of staying in denial for 30 years. I watch a lot of UFC, just by the way they fight, I can even tell how old is the fight because they *CONSTANTLY changing and improving.*


You know how kung fu people train?  You've trained kung fu?  ALL of it?  I mean, I realize you had a few _whole months_ of Wing Chun, and then you followed some bad advice on iron palm and hurt yourself.  So you now know all about how kung fu people train, and what place forms take in training, and what other drills and applications are part of the whole of the training?  really?  ...interesting...

I wish I was so knowledgeable.  I only know what I do.  I don't entertain fantasies of knowing what everyone else does.


----------



## Argus (Aug 25, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Of course TMA guys can train people to be in the UFC. You see guys like Dan Kelly and Judo. Or machida or wonder boy in karate.
> 
> They just train a system that produces very good martial artists.
> 
> You potentially don't have a system that produces as high quality martial artists. And that is fine. But you seem to want to be treated as if you do have a system that does. Why do you think you get that for free?



Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...

I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.

I'm not even sure that the best UFC fighter in the world would necessarily win against an average practitioner of a given weapons based system if you give him a weapon. Sure, he may have a physical advantage and good reflexes, but he has absolutely zero experience, knowledge, and muscle memory.

Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
3. Deal with multiple opponents
4. Handle both trained and untrained opponents who are much larger than you, and who behave very differently than they do in the ring.
5. Handle a variety of weapons, including sticks, knives, swords, or even firearms?
6. Deal with an attacker who may be wielding any of the above variety of weapons.
7. Make most efficient use of bodymechanics and techniques given the very big changes that subtle differences make when wearing clothes, shoes, lack of training gear, and the potential for weapons, multiple opponents, and all other factors mentioned here? People really under estimate how much of a difference small things make. *Really*

I'd also argue that the way people behave in a non sportive combat environment is very different. Committed, unskilled attacks are not always as easy to defend from as people think, and always practicing against uncommitted, skilled opponents sort of robs you of learning what you can do in response to them. Ending a fight is all about efficiency, and taking advantage openings that your opponent gives you while not getting hit, stabbed, or cut yourself. If you don't train versus a wide range of attacks at various distances and with all sorts of implements, your performance will be suboptimal for the situation.

My argument is a case for being *unspecialized*. Competitive fighters must specialize highly. On the other hand, people with a more general approach to preparedness and combat must specifically avoid specializing and adopt a general approach that can deal with a much broader spectrum of threats.

Let me just give you a very tiny example of how specialization hurts: In Filipino Martial Arts, most people train with a light weight rattan stick of exactly 28 inches. However, the moment you pick up a fighting weight stick twice the weight, or a stick that is a little longer or shorter, or indeed a blade or machete, things become extremely awkward if you haven't handled that specific length, weight, and shape or nature (blade versus impact) weapon before, and the nature of what you can and can't do with each one changes a lot more than you would think. If you always train with that one implement of a certain size and weight, I'm sure you can compete well in a stick fighting match. But you will be far less effective when wielding anything other than that 28 inch light weight rattan stick that you spend all your time training with.

Then, there's the nature of the sportive context in which you test your skills. Some people treat the stick as a stick. Some treat it as a blade. Others seem to totally ignore what would be, without protective equipment, lethal shots to the head and rush in for to grapple or take down, which I can't really understand. Decided norms around competition hugely affect how you test your art, and who would come out on top if you were competing.

That's just an example of minor differences, and applies across the board to things like wearing or not wearing gloves, etc.

Then there are things you simply don't train for at all if your focus is purely on competition, such as multiple attackers, hitting with your bare hands, dealing with weapons, multiple attackers, concrete, and all sorts of uncertainties which do not just change what you do a little bit, but completely.

I just watched a video of two trained, very competent sports fighters get into a street fight with a larger group of random people. They did really good, until one of the random guys picked up part a large piece of construction lumber laying around, and swung at one of them. Not knowing what to do, his natural, trained reaction was to back off and try to get out of range, and he wound up getting hit squarely in the head, knocked to the ground unconscious, and stomped on. You can say all you want that "oh, I know better than to do that" and "I can deal with X or Y" but until you've trained to do so and have ingrained and make it second nature, you had better think twice about whether or not you can, indeed, do what you say you can.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Being less than capable against an elite grappler wouldn't really bother me if I was a boxer. A competent boxer can handle most situations.


I can see why you laugh at my post. You only worry about facing people that don't know anything. I am sure a competent boxer can handle most untrained people, just like I said even if I do weight training, the fact that I am stronger than someone that doesn't know how to fight, I can throw him around without knowing any MA.



Alan0354 said:


> Why are we talking about technique against ordinary people that don't know anything? Anything you train is better than nothing!!! Even if you do weight training, it's better off than ones that don't because you can throw them around. That doesn't mean weight training is effective in beating people!!!
> 
> You test the technique by looking at the best of the best. You watch just UFC 1, 2 and 3, you see those TMA that got flatten to the ground without even landing a punch, you can make a judgement how effective is that TMA.
> 
> ...


I guess this is funny. We should only talk about facing people that doesn't know anything.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> You know how kung fu people train?  You've trained kung fu?  ALL of it?  I mean, I realize you had a few _whole months_ of Wing Chun, and then you followed some bad advice on iron palm and hurt yourself.  So you now know all about how kung fu people train, and what place forms take in training, and what other drills and applications are part of the whole of the training?  really?  ...interesting...
> 
> I wish I was so knowledgeable.  I only know what I do.  I don't entertain fantasies of knowing what everyone else does.


Now I know from reading here, you guys are trained against only people on the street that don't know anything and claim your stuffs work beautifully.

You should really go on youtube and watch Xu Ziaodong. Those people he challenged and whooped their butts, are famous masters in China. Guess what the government did, they make him paint his face before every fight to humiliate him, some people put a $20K bounty on him to whoever can beat him.

This is really an eye opener, I did NOT realize until this thread and till today. WOW. This, I agree, all kung fu works beautifully.......on untrained people.


----------



## Alan0354 (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...
> 
> I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.
> 
> ...


I agree with a lot of what you said. I have so many guns they're coming out of of my ears!!! We went shooting twice a week for years, I punched a big hole in the middle of my target at 25yds pistol shooting every time. I won 2nd in one competition. I have guns from Glock to tiny Freedom Arms 22Magnum that fit in the palm of the hand. When I go to some questionable place, you bet I carry. Not only that, I do gun smithing to improve performance and reliability on pistols. I talked about this in Firingline Forum on and off, not here.

I train hard on stick fighting using a cane also and carry a cane wherever I go these days. I have pepper spray in my pocket at all time. I train a lot harder on stick fight than kick boxing. Kick boxing at this point is more aerobic exercise in my weekly exercise program.

BUT, this is a thread on MMA....................


----------



## Argus (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I agree with a lot of what you said. I have so many guns they're coming out of of my ears!!! We went shooting twice a week for years, I punched a big hole in the middle of my target at 25yds pistol shooting every time. I won 2nd in one competition. I have guns from Glock to tiny Freedom Arms 22Magnum that fit in the palm of the hand. When I go to some questionable place, you bet I carry. Not only that, I do gun smithing to improve performance and reliability on pistols. I talked about this in Firingline Forum on and off, not here.
> 
> I train hard on stick fighting using a cane also and carry a cane wherever I go these days. I have pepper spray in my pocket at all time.
> 
> BUT, this is a thread on MMA....................


Awesome! I'm glad you have broad training. That will serve you well.

My point is that you can't really use MMA as the yardstick by which to measure every martial art, though. Consider this: Would you assert that an Olympic shooter would have superior skill in self defense with a firearm than someone who trains self defense / tactical shooting? The sport version is highly specialized, and no doubt, the practitioners are extremely good marksmen. But that training misses out on many real world aspects of accessing and using a weapon in self defense. The same can be said of many sportive arts. Now, MMA/UFC is pretty close, granted, to real combat, but it ignores far, far too much to be used as some kind of universal yardstick by which to judge the effectiveness of all things. Not all TMAs are good, but many are, and some of them are very ideal for self defense, or other combative contexts, whilst simultaneously not being great for competitive fighting in the ring, and that simply comes down to differences in the context for which the respective arts evolved.


----------



## Flying Crane (Aug 25, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now I know from reading here, you guys are trained against only people on the street that don't know anything and claim your stuffs work beautifully.
> 
> You should really go on youtube and watch Xu Ziaodong. Those people he challenged and whooped their butts, are famous masters in China. Guess what the government did, they make him paint his face before every fight to humiliate him, some people put a $20K bounty on him to whoever can beat him.
> 
> This is really an eye opener, I did NOT realize until this thread and till today. WOW. This, I agree, all kung fu works beautifully.......on untrained people.


Oh you KNOW this eh?  Funny fellow.  You seem to know everything.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.



Ok. How do you fare weapon against weapon though?

Are you able to dominate a ufc fighter in say a full contact stick fight.

Or even with some head gear and nerf bats?

Have you tested that your weapon skills make any difference at all?

Or is this another ego bolstering logic game?

The dog brothers for example test weapon systems with a modified MMA platform. Could you beat a dog brother?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 25, 2021)

Argus said:


> Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
> 1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
> 2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
> 3. Deal with multiple opponents
> ...



Yeah. Pretty much.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3517380384972485
			




By the way. I have been in a lot of fights. Do you think those issues you raised are super important specialist skills?

Because with  those questions. It is kind of like you don't understand the subject.

The thing I think people miss is that they think their system has some sort of monopoly on real world experience. And that is not the case.

Quite often the sports fighter can have more real world experience than the RSBD guy. 

So Integrated above train bouncers. The coach works doors with half his students.

Near to me in Townsville MMA train a bunch of soldiers. There just happens to be a massive military base there. I did a seminar with the guy who sets up the systems for the Armies close combat. You can't throw a rock in that club and not hit a war veteran. 

We have at least 3 cops train with us. I bounced for twenty years and my coach recently did volunteer/protection work in PNG a country where they still burn witches.

So is the information about what is and isn't necessary in a street attack coming from credible guys? 

Because your outfit for example isn't exactly a game changer.


----------



## Argus (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Ok. How do you fare weapon against weapon though?
> 
> Are you able to dominate a ufc fighter in say a full contact stick fight.
> 
> ...



Ego bolstering logic game? Not sure where you got that.

I could not come close to beating a dog brother at my current skill level. But I've trained with, and was taught by one for a short time (about a year). He taught a traditional system, but with an extremely pragmatic and real-world approach. I experienced first hand his skill and ability, and was thoroughly convinced that what he had to teach was very effective indeed. I experienced a truly eye opening level of power, speed, and functional technical skill. He is a world class martial artist, and has had a huge impact on my _understanding_ of Martial Arts, even if I did not train long enough to cover more than the basics of the system he taught me. This is just to say what has influenced my understanding and perspective on what makes a system practical and effective, and how things change between a sportive and real world context.

As for if I could dominate a UFC fighter with no experience in a stick on stick fight... Who knows. Maybe. Maybe not -- simply because I do not know if my limited skill level is sufficient to beat his huge advantage in athleticism. But it's certainly possible that I could, given that weapons are very much a force equalizer, and that skill becomes increasingly more of the determining factor. I'd actually love to finding out, if and when I work up to the level of full contact stick fighting myself. I'm personally more interested in sword/blade over stick systems, however -- and have and probably will continue to focus on that. Put us both in HEMA gear and give us each training blades and I'd happily run that experiment today! And I'll report back with the results. Then we can both learn a thing or to, perhaps 

I have huge respect for anyone who competes, and the amount of training and physical conditioning that they put in. I do not have nearly the same amount of time and resources to dedicate to training, though I wish I did. But, I have met and experienced the skill and prowess of such people, both in the world of combat sports, and traditional martial arts, including individuals who do both. Like I said, I find I learn the most from those who are open minded and who have a broad base of experience in both simultaneously.


----------



## Argus (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Pretty much.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm having a hard time following your argument.

You're saying some MMA guys train outside of the ring, and have real world experience outside of the ring, therefore, people who train MMA are prepared for contexts outside of the ring?

The crux of your argument seems to be that training only for the context of the ring is sufficient, and that anything that doesn't produce a high percentage of competitive fighters in the ring is worthless.

Is your argument now that, because some MMA guys have experience outside of MMA, that this prepares them for artifacts of conflict outside of the ring, or are you saying that because people who are interested in real world combat seek out training at MMA schools, that this proves that MMA is the best thing on the block? Or are you saying that some MMA schools also train for contexts outside of the ring, and therefore are prepared?

What is your argument exactly? I can't even tell if we disagree or not.

I'm all for pressure testing your art, and cross training. I'm only advocating to take a broader perspective than just what happens in a competitive setting. And for the record, I've considered training at an MMA gym myself, and believe I would both enjoy it and learn and benefit a lot. I just don't see how you can say that the ring is the end all be all and that nothing matters outside of that -- if that is indeed what you're saying.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

Argus said:


> I'm having a hard time following your argument.
> 
> You're saying some MMA guys train outside of the ring, and have real world experience outside of the ring, therefore, people who train MMA are prepared for contexts outside of the ring?
> 
> ...



Ultimately i am saying a lot of those issues listed are fabricated issues made by people who either don't understand the subject or who are actively making it up for personal gain.

And I am saying this because I have as much access to real life defence experts through MMA as anyone else does from any other avenue in life.

And my experts are better because they can actually prove their theories in a MMA context.

Tim larkin for example has no evidence he can perform the techniques he advocates. Or even perform an approximation of the techniques he advocates. Or that any of his studentscan perform any of the techniques he advocates. And there is no vehicle to test if he is correct in his assumptions or not. And so his training is purely faith based.

And so you will never know if he is right or wrong. And you have no way to find out other than put your life at risk.

And this is done intentionally to sell you a product.

And so if you are suggesting UFC isn't the be all and end all. When compared to this specific alternative it actually is the be all and end all.


----------



## Argus (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Ultimately i am saying a lot of those issues listed are fabricated issues made by people who either don't understand the subject or who are actively making it up for personal gain.
> 
> And I am saying this because I have as much access to real life defence experts through MMA as anyone else does from any other avenue in life.
> 
> ...



Overall, I think we agree much more than we disagree.

For one thing, I share your general skepticism, and I'm not actually a fan of Tim Larkin. I just liked the specific video that he analyzed.

I do agree also that the more contexts something can be proven in, the better. If you have a self defense technique that also works in an MMA context under pressure, all the better.

But I also practice a sort of reverse skepticism, which is to say, I try not to throw the baby out with the bath water. And I try to decide for myself if a technique does actually work under pressure, by actually trying to apply it under pressure myself. Not necessarily in a competitive environment, but with friends and training partners.

I believe in, and regularly test what I learn. I don't just believe in accepting everything on good faith, and I always maintain a certain amount of skepticism and openmindedness simultaneously. I may not be a self defense expert, or a competitive fighter, but I've routinely gotten together with friends in the martial arts world to test out things under pressure, including really really difficult stuff like knife defense. We've practiced a lot of this stuff full speed, and I've learned a lot from it. Some of the traditional stuff, a lot of it -- including stuff that many people will claim is "not practical," I've had great and reliable success with after playing around with it long enough to understand when it does and doesn't work, and how to apply it pragmatically. Other stuff, I'm not sure of because I haven't been able to apply it under pressure with a high success rate, but that's often times due to my own lack of training it, or lack of understanding when and how to apply it effectively, so I reserve judgement on it. Some stuff, I couldn't make work at all, but this is actually the exception more than the rule, and I remain skeptical but keep open the possibility that it has value that I just don't understand.

Like wise, I've tested, though not competed, my empty hand skill on a variety of martial artists, and to a limited degree, in a sportive context as well. I learned a lot from that. And I have a lot to learn if I want to compete. But I think there is something to be said for its effectiveness that I was able to apply what I did know to good effect, even if at nowhere near the level of a true competitive fighter.

Here's the thing, though: I don't see how you can practice things, like, say, knife versus empty hand in a competitive environment. It's totally unfair, whilst sportive arts are obsessed with fairness. But it's something that I consider really important to practice.

Likewise, you can't really practice disengaging and escaping from a fight, etc. in a competitive environment. You may want to just simply create an opportunity to escape, or to access a weapon as opposed to engaging in a mutually agreed upon fight.

These are just a few examples. There are tons more nuanced differences that I feel are quite large (and I feel this way speaking from direct experience and comparison!), but if we can't even agree on these examples, I don't think we'll agree on more nuanced differences.

I'm not so sure if I agree with your take that many of the "little things" I mentioned aren't big issues in actual real world combat or self defense. I have my own knowledge and actual experience in this area that leads me to value and place emphasis on these differences -- I'm not just parroting what I've heard others claim. And I do often ask myself "how important is this" and "is a much simpler approach just better." My answers are not nearly as clear cut as yours, even after applying a lot of skepticism.

Again, I do highly value testing one's skill in a sparring context, and against a wide range of trained individuals. I'm just saying that there's more to martial arts and self defense than just that. People who are too narrowly focused on *just* competition often throw the baby out with the bath water, and I get the sense that you might be doing that just a little.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.


Except that that's not the message I hear a lot from the anti-TMA crowd. I hear a lot of "forms don't teach fighting" and such, claiming those things are a waste of time.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I can see why you laugh at my post. You only worry about facing people that don't know anything. I am sure a competent boxer can handle most untrained people, just like I said even if I do weight training, the fact that I am stronger than someone that doesn't know how to fight, I can throw him around without knowing any MA.
> 
> 
> I guess this is funny. We should only talk about facing people that doesn't know anything.


And here, once again, you present your inability to see anything other than extremes. Congratulations. There are a lot of people with some ability (anywhere from "meh" to quite good) who aren't elite fighters.

But then you knew that, and just found it easier to argue a point I never made. That's called a strawman, and you've presented a really eggregious example of one here. Well done.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Argus said:


> Does being the best UFC fighter in the world also prepare you to do any of the following?
> 1. Hit someone without gloves, and not break your hand
> 2. Take someone down, and not have your head kicked in by their buddy
> 3. Deal with multiple opponents
> ...


Being an elite MMA fighter would put someone well ahead in any of those categories, compared to someone untrained or not elite in that category. The skills translate. As for #7, I don't think it's as big a factor in that direction. MMA fighters train to deal with no useful clothing to hang onto, so if you add in some handles in the form of jackets, etc, that likely goes in their favor. Clothing (other than something overly constrictive) doesn't become a significant liability unless you're dealing with a grappler who's trained to make use of it (which is why so little clothing in most MMA matches).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Argus said:


> Here's the thing, though: I don't see how you can practice things, like, say, knife versus empty hand in a competitive environment. It's totally unfair, whilst sportive arts are obsessed with fairness. But it's something that I consider really important to practice.
> 
> Likewise, you can't really practice disengaging and escaping from a fight, etc. in a competitive environment. You may want to just simply create an opportunity to escape, or to access a weapon as opposed to engaging in a mutually agreed upon fight.


I don't think you can really do either of those in a dojo or gym very fully, either. You can create a simulation for the knife vs. empty hand, but it will always be limited (there's not enough risk for either side, for starters, so decisions change). And disengage/escape in a dojo setting doesn't have the factor of the other person's decisions. You can only drill the movements and strategies, but you can't really try them out with much reality.


----------



## Trondyne (Aug 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> They then know they don't have to tools to deal with grapplers


What boxer is training to fight grapplers?   



> How come almost 30 years later, they still don't manage to get up there and still talk trash?



Not sure what this means... Everyone has moved on some people will always be lost.....



> That's what I point out about kung fu, they refuse to change, keep doing things that don't work and making excuse.



This is simply anti style bias...  I don't think there is anything wrong with "kung fu", sorry.  What's wrong is that not enough people spar or fight with it.  There are teachers who *never fought* or fought very little* teaching people who don't want to fight* and what do you get? People who can't fight...shocking...  Too many of these people aren't fighting at all, let alone grapplers...

If kung-fu people started fighting (more) we might have a chance to see some very interesting additions to MMA, moves and methods never before seen or rarely seen.  We might have a chance to grow more, and save some dying arts. I know many people don't agree but that's fine, we'll never know until those people start fighting with their art...


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## Trondyne (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Being an elite MMA fighter would put someone well ahead in any of those categories, compared to someone untrained or not elite in that category. The skills translate. As for #7, I don't think it's as big a factor in that direction. MMA fighters train to deal with no useful clothing to hang onto, so if you add in some handles in the form of jackets, etc, that likely goes in their favor. Clothing (other than something overly constrictive) doesn't become a significant liability unless you're dealing with a grappler who's trained to make use of it (which is why so little clothing in most MMA matches).


There are many elements in actual Self Defense not addressed by traditional fighting arts in any way shape or form....

Tony Blauer has been covering this stuff for decades and very well...  Of course fight training helps but can lead you away from what is self defense and not fighting consensual 1 on 1...

This video is Gold...


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## Trondyne (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Except that that's not the message I hear a lot from the anti-TMA crowd. I hear a lot of "forms don't teach fighting" and such, claiming those things are a waste of time.



Forms bore the $hit out of me but they are an ingenious way of preserving not only a catalogue of moves and ideas of the art but sneaky ways to challenge the body and train balance in motion, specialized mechanics, how to loosen up and stretch out muscles and tendons, generate specialized kinds of loose power and more....  

The down side is that they also allow information to be lost because if you don't tell people what some of the moves are they very likely won't figure it out...


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## Trondyne (Aug 26, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Now I know from reading here, you guys are trained against only people on the street that don't know anything and claim your stuffs work beautifully.


Lumping millions of people all together in one bucket is ignorant AF.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> There are many elements in actual Self Defense not addressed by traditional fighting arts in any way shape or form....
> 
> Tony Blauer has been covering this stuff for decades and very well...  Of course fight training helps but can lead you away from what is self defense and not fighting consensual 1 on 1...
> 
> This video is Gold...


I'm not someplace where I can watch a video. Can you give me a bullet-point synopsis of which elements you're referring to?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

Trondyne said:


> Forms bore the $hit out of me but they are an ingenious way of preserving not only a catalogue of moves and ideas of the art but sneaky ways to challenge the body and train balance in motion, specialized mechanics, how to loosen up and stretch out muscles and tendons, generate specialized kinds of loose power and more....
> 
> The down side is that they also allow information to be lost because if you don't tell people what some of the moves are they very likely won't figure it out...


I'm not a fan of them as a catalogue (using them that way leads some folks to determine what is and isn't in an art by the forms, so there's no evolution). I use them almost entirely for the other purposes. I'm not so sure they're sneaky about that - or rather that they necessarily are. I teach my students what the purpose of the forms is, how they were designed, and what they do and don't include.

If someone misinterprets a movement in my forms, it's inconsequential unless they are doing something that's bad for their body.


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## Trondyne (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not someplace where I can watch a video. Can you give me a bullet-point synopsis of which elements you're referring to?


Not at the moment...  What's the problem watching the video?  I am happy to give you a link or we can wait until you are somewhere where you can watch it...  Tony's stuff is worth the wait...


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## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

Argus said:


> Okay, since the UFC seems to be the end all be all of martial arts to you folks...
> 
> I currently train systems that utilize knives, swords, and sticks. I am only a beginner in this system, granted, but I think there's a good chance I'd win a fight against even the best unarmed UFC fighters. There are totally unskilled people who, given a weapon, or just a different opportunity, could do the same. I think there's also a very good possibility that people who have trained my system would have a much higher survival rate against me in such an unfair, unarmed vs armed fight.
> 
> ...


Well, setting aside the fixation on the UFC, I think your points about being "unspecialized" are on point.  To be clear, I think focusing on the UFC (or any apex level of an art) is missing the point.  The focus should be on the middle 50% or so, people who train but aren't elite athletes.  What can they do?  

But when you talk about someone who can do other things, I totally agree.  A person who trains and competes in MMA, and also regularly attends the Dog Brothers gatherings will be more capable than someone who only trains in MMA.  And so on.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Yeah people get confused about forms. Forms done correctly is good mobility training. It is bunkai where stuff gets pretty useless.


Depending on the form and how you do it, it can be good stamina training as well, or a good way to get in the right mindset if you've got a temper. 

I had one form I used to do in fencing competitions if I was losing my matches and noticing my mindset was off. Looked weird as hell doing a form between matches I'm sure, but it helped.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 26, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Depending on the form and how you do it, it can be good stamina training as well, or a good way to get in the right mindset if you've got a temper.
> 
> I had one form I used to do in fencing competitions if I was losing my matches and noticing my mindset was off. Looked weird as hell doing a form between matches I'm sure, but it helped.


I realize this is way off topic, but the thought came to my mind so wanted to add it.


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## shaunkwondo (Aug 26, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Okay, but what about mai tai's? Can those be discussed with the mma community?


Heck yeah!! Best art out there is Mai Tai Kwon Do! I'm a great grandmaster, lol!!


----------



## shaunkwondo (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> So, being serious for a moment, this is a tough one.  Fans of any sport are going to vary in level of expertise.  Some who train in the sport or elements of the sport will have a little more insight than a person who doesn't train at all and is strictly a spectator.
> 
> Fandom, in general, isn't entirely rational, though.  I mean, look at football (American or otherwise).  Fans of a team are inherently irrational.  They will argue until they're blue in the face about things related to their teams and other teams.  And most of it is emotional fandom.  But that's just the nature of it.  People say really mean things about the Seahawks (aks, the seasquawks, if you live outside of Seattle).  But you'll never convince me that Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Russell Wilson, whether it's true or not.
> 
> ...


Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!


----------



## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

shaunkwondo said:


> Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!


First Seahawks game I ever attended in the Kingdome happened to be their first playoff game in franchise history. Wild card game in 1983 against the Denver Broncos.  They won that game, and then went to Miami to face Dan Marino and the Dolphins.  No one gave them a chance in hell to win that game, but Dan Marino, in Marino fashion, choked in the big game and the Seahawks won.  So exciting.

Of course, then the Raiders just killed the Seahawks and went on to win Superbowl XVIII over the Redskins.


----------



## shaunkwondo (Aug 26, 2021)

Steve said:


> First Seahawks game I ever attended in the Kingdome happened to be their first playoff game in franchise history. Wild card game in 1983 against the Denver Broncos.  They won that game, and then went to Miami to face Dan Marino and the Dolphins.  No one gave them a chance in hell to win that game, but Dan Marino, in Marino fashion, choked in the big game and the Seahawks won.  So exciting.
> 
> Of course, then the Raiders just killed the Seahawks and went on to win Superbowl XVIII over the Redskins.


I don't like you Steve. I'm sorry, we can't be friends. 😆


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## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Except that that's not the message I hear a lot from the anti-TMA crowd. I hear a lot of "forms don't teach fighting" and such, claiming those things are a waste of time.



Because the TMA crowd use them wrong. So when the TMA crowd try to bend reality to make a piece of form fit. They are wasting their time. 

Mabye saying its just a movement drill. Not a technique drill from time to time might clear that up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Because the TMA crowd use them wrong. So when the TMA crowd try to bend reality to make a piece of form fit. They are wasting their time.
> 
> Mabye saying its just a movement drill. Not a technique drill from time to time might clear that up.


I'd say that's true of some in the TMA world, from what I've seen. And some of what seems to be trying to make a form fit is really just an intellectual pursuit. There are things I love to poke around with in my base art just for the interest in tinkering (not caring about any application or realism). I suspect there's a bit of that in other arts, too.

Personally, I like them (even the quite classical ones I've seen folks practice very seriously) as movement drills that reinforce the kinds of movements used in training. I think they are quite nice for that, and give students something they can do solo that focuses them on balance and form.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'd say that's true of some in the TMA world, from what I've seen. And some of what seems to be trying to make a form fit is really just an intellectual pursuit. There are things I love to poke around with in my base art just for the interest in tinkering (not caring about any application or realism). I suspect there's a bit of that in other arts, too.
> 
> Personally, I like them (even the quite classical ones I've seen folks practice very seriously) as movement drills that reinforce the kinds of movements used in training. I think they are quite nice for that, and give students something they can do solo that focuses them on balance and form.



The thing is. If it is a movement drill then the XMA guys are probably doing the most effective versions of forms.






Because if you can do this. Then you are achieving the sort of explosive body control needed to fight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> The thing is. If it is a movement drill then the XMA guys are probably doing the most effective versions of forms.


If you want the form to encourage gymnastic movement or high levels of fitness, I'd agree. If you want it to encourage the kind of movement related to the tactics and strategy of a MA system and general range of motion, etc., probably not. 

I encourage students to use forms to figure out where their bodies are before class. Folks I teach are typically office workers or drive a lot, so finding out where they are tense, sore, etc. helps keep them from injuring themselves in class. That's not a purpose a gymnastic form serves as well.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> If you want the form to encourage gymnastic movement or high levels of fitness, I'd agree. If you want it to encourage the kind of movement related to the tactics and strategy of a MA system and general range of motion, etc., probably not.
> 
> I encourage students to use forms to figure out where their bodies are before class. Folks I teach are typically office workers or drive a lot, so finding out where they are tense, sore, etc. helps keep them from injuring themselves in class. That's not a purpose a gymnastic form serves as well.



Depends how you want to fight.

If your body is called on to do this for example.






Then some sort of back of house is needed to achieve that.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Depends how you want to fight.
> 
> If your body is called on to do this for example.
> 
> ...


Agreed. But the high flipping kicks seen in some XMA stuff (which I'd love to be able to do if I could go back to when my legs were strong enough) don't really apply. So a form designed around the kind of movement to be used would be better.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. But the high flipping kicks seen in some XMA stuff (which I'd love to be able to do if I could go back to when my legs were strong enough) don't really apply. So a form designed around the kind of movement to be used would be better.



Sort of and not sort of. Back to 2+2=4

So you train elements that are required to do a back flip for example which become structural building blocks to perform other movements.

So you do all this gymnastics and then take pieces of gymnastics and put them together in different ways to fight.

And the reason you do the back flip is because you can't fake it or cheat on the details because you will land on your head.

Which is the same argument for MMA in a adaptive approach. So sayyou wrestle and you have to stand up and disengage you are forced to use good wrestling mechanics to do that. 

This then benefits your stand up and disengage when someone has pulled a gun on you or ninjas have dropped out of the shadows.


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## Buka (Aug 26, 2021)

shaunkwondo said:


> Well said!! Couldn't agree more! But Rodgers is better than Wilson... and eh hem... Marino is better then both! You'll never convince me otherwise, whether it's true or not!


Rogers can throw unlike anybody I've ever seen, but Wilson is the better quarterback. Rogers is a diva who only cares about Rogers.

Remember that game where the Seahawks scored 15 points in the last two minutes to slap the Packers?

That's my favorite football game of all time. And I'm from New England.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 26, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Sort of and not sort of. Back to 2+2=4
> 
> So you train elements that are required to do a back flip for example which become structural building blocks to perform other movements.
> 
> ...


That's an argument for the flipping movement being useful, but I don't think it's an argument for the flipping kick movement, which would involve different mechanics. And then there's the question of whether in a given system those flips are what you want folks to focus on in their basic movement exercises. While gymnastics would benefit folks doing what I teach, most folks are much better served by fundamental movement work.

So XMA-style forms might be useful to a few. To larger groups, they'd likely be a barrier, or at least a distraction from fundamentals.


----------



## Steve (Aug 26, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That's an argument for the flipping movement being useful, but I don't think it's an argument for the flipping kick movement, which would involve different mechanics. And then there's the question of whether in a given system those flips are what you want folks to focus on in their basic movement exercises. While gymnastics would benefit folks doing what I teach, most folks are much better served by fundamental movement work.
> 
> So XMA-style forms might be useful to a few. To larger groups, they'd likely be a barrier, or at least a distraction from fundamentals.


I’m not seeing how it’s a barrier or distraction.  Can you spell that out for me?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> I’m not seeing how it’s a barrier or distraction.  Can you spell that out for me?


For someone who can't do flips (not athletic enough) and doesn't know whether they can learn to (or know they can't), it becomes a pereived barrier.

And since doing a flip kick isn't really anything fundamental to fighting, the time spent on it (it would require quite bit of work and focus for most folks) is time away from fundamentals. It'd be like taking a gymnastics class once a week to get better at BJJ: it would probably help marginally, but putting that same time into additional BJJ training would be much more effective.


----------



## brian k (Aug 27, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


Mider,


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 27, 2021)

brian k said:


> Mider,


I'm not sure if the rest of your response got cut off, but all I see from your post is "Mider,"


----------



## Steve (Aug 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not sure if the rest of your response got cut off, but all I see from your post is "Mider,"


Monkey Turned Wolf,


----------



## Cynik75 (Aug 27, 2021)

Steve said:


> Monkey Turned Wolf,


Steve


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 27, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not sure if the rest of your response got cut off, but all I see from your post is "Mider,"


Maybe it's like when you were a kid, and your mom called you by your full name... nothing else needed to be said.


----------



## brian k (Aug 27, 2021)

Mider said:


> I’ve noticed an issue with the mma community, if you start discussing anything that isn’t judo, muay thay, wrestling, bjj, boxing, kickboxing etc you immediately get attacked.
> 
> this  again just the community, the people who actually teach or fight are way more open minded. Guys like Anderson Silva learned Wing Chun and JKD, Roy Nelson does Kung Fu, Yi Long is  self taught in Shaolin, Eric Paulson has done it all from Kali, JKD, judo, savate, shooto, BJJ, boxing, etc. I saw that at Gokor’s gym he is offering wing Chun classes, and scrolling through YouTube I saw that they had Stephen Hayes (Ninjitsu) at the Pit, the same pit Chuck Liddell trains at.
> 
> the point of this post is the following, a true martial artist should keep an open mind, not just take what a master or teacher says, it’s easy to listen to Rokas or Ramsay Dewey, guys who have no real success in the game and find out for yourself.


Mider, 
     Not sure exactly what you mean by _"getting attacked"......_perhaps they're saying that those are the only arts one should study or combine to make mma....or perhaps all they want to talk about is martial arts...Well, of course when someone is leaning something new or something that they really like and enjoy, that will be the main thing on their mind....
     I agree with you that a true martial artist should keep an open mind....however, the old school martial artists thought _their _style was the best, that _they _had the secret knowledge.  I came up through that era.  My sensei would make fun out of other styles......After November 12th, 1993 a whole new world opened up.  I actually thought it was fake at first....I didn't understand it.  How wrong I was.  Those who thought _their_ style was the best quickly found out, if it didn't include grappling, they were at a HUGE loss....hence the evolution of mixed martial arts which has to include all aspects of the arts with of course the exception of weapons.  I too learned the hard way what was missing from _my_ martial art.  It really wasn't complete...Oh, it had kata's, 7 step sparring, self defense techniques, lot's of kicks and hand techniques, but what if someone who truly knew how to grapple took me down?  I was LOST!  I didn't know a thing about any sort of grappling other than an O'soto-gari...and one  other rudimentary throw.  Keeping a closed fist at the hip makes no sense what so ever in a real fight.  Yes, there's meaning to it in the kata, but only a fool would keep his/her hand at her hip while throwing a punch.  One boxing class proved that to me.  After marriage, kids and a new career, the martial arts came back into my life.  I found myself working out with a Wing Chun martial artist....I saw things that reminded me of my karate days....A lot of great striking and trapping techniques....I loved it!  I thought that was the art of all arts!  Especially after meeting Sifu Randy Williams.....By chance, I met my old sensei one day and asked if he was still teaching.  He said he retired...I asked if he'd teach me and a couple of friends...he said sure...That was 26 years ago.  After dabbling in Wing Chun, I saw that there's more out there, so I started looking at other dojo's to see what they had to offer, all the while taking classes from my sensei.  I ate, drank, slept, dreamed and definitely talked about martial arts to anyone and everyone who'd listen.  I went to different schools to see what they had to offer including but not limited to Wing Chun, Kempo, Hapkido and a strong Japanese karate style.  All striking styles up to this point....until one of the schools started incorporating grappling.  Holy crap were my eyes clouded over with a false sense of security.  I mean, I literally thought I could handle myself with anyone...yes, I had my *** handed to me in the striking arts, but I felt WAY over confident that I'd be able to handle myself on the street with any unarmed attacker.  What I didn't realize is if someone even had the slightest rudimentary skills of wrestling and got me down before I could get a strike off, I'd be like a fish out of water or a non-swimmer in a pool with water over my head.  Luckily, my sensei's old friend and Judoka kept inviting me over to learn Judo which I eventually did take some classes along with my sons.  I also put my sons in jiujitsu as well...after learning the importance of grappling.  I learned from them.  Eventually one of my work out partners took up Jiujitsu as well and he taught me what he learned....At least enough to go to the ground with a beginner jiujitsu player.  As fare as Roka is concerned, I have to tip my hat to the man.  He tested his art out and saw it too was lacking...since then, he moved to the states and began learning mma / jiujitsu....and actually entered some tournaments....I do believe he's a true martial artist looking for the truth...I don't know much about Dewey...But at least he's out there doing a good thing....at least from what I can see....


----------



## Mider (Aug 28, 2021)

brian k said:


> Mider,
> Not sure exactly what you mean by _"getting attacked"......_perhaps they're saying that those are the only arts one should study or combine to make mma....or perhaps all they want to talk about is martial arts...Well, of course when someone is leaning something new or something that they really like and enjoy, that will be the main thing on their mind....
> I agree with you that a true martial artist should keep an open mind....however, the old school martial artists thought _their _style was the best, that _they _had the secret knowledge.  I came up through that era.  My sensei would make fun out of other styles......After November 12th, 1993 a whole new world opened up.  I actually thought it was fake at first....I didn't understand it.  How wrong I was.  Those who thought _their_ style was the best quickly found out, if it didn't include grappling, they were at a HUGE loss....hence the evolution of mixed martial arts which has to include all aspects of the arts with of course the exception of weapons.  I too learned the hard way what was missing from _my_ martial art.  It really wasn't complete...Oh, it had kata's, 7 step sparring, self defense techniques, lot's of kicks and hand techniques, but what if someone who truly knew how to grapple took me down?  I was LOST!  I didn't know a thing about any sort of grappling other than an O'soto-gari...and one  other rudimentary throw.  Keeping a closed fist at the hip makes no sense what so ever in a real fight.  Yes, there's meaning to it in the kata, but only a fool would keep his/her hand at her hip while throwing a punch.  One boxing class proved that to me.  After marriage, kids and a new career, the martial arts came back into my life.  I found myself working out with a Wing Chun martial artist....I saw things that reminded me of my karate days....A lot of great striking and trapping techniques....I loved it!  I thought that was the art of all arts!  Especially after meeting Sifu Randy Williams.....By chance, I met my old sensei one day and asked if he was still teaching.  He said he retired...I asked if he'd teach me and a couple of friends...he said sure...That was 26 years ago.  After dabbling in Wing Chun, I saw that there's more out there, so I started looking at other dojo's to see what they had to offer, all the while taking classes from my sensei.  I ate, drank, slept, dreamed and definitely talked about martial arts to anyone and everyone who'd listen.  I went to different schools to see what they had to offer including but not limited to Wing Chun, Kempo, Hapkido and a strong Japanese karate style.  All striking styles up to this point....until one of the schools started incorporating grappling.  Holy crap were my eyes clouded over with a false sense of security.  I mean, I literally thought I could handle myself with anyone...yes, I had my *** handed to me in the striking arts, but I felt WAY over confident that I'd be able to handle myself on the street with any unarmed attacker.  What I didn't realize is if someone even had the slightest rudimentary skills of wrestling and got me down before I could get a strike off, I'd be like a fish out of water or a non-swimmer in a pool with water over my head.  Luckily, my sensei's old friend and Judoka kept inviting me over to learn Judo which I eventually did take some classes along with my sons.  I also put my sons in jiujitsu as well...after learning the importance of grappling.  I learned from them.  Eventually one of my work out partners took up Jiujitsu as well and he taught me what he learned....At least enough to go to the ground with a beginner jiujitsu player.  As fare as Roka is concerned, I have to tip my hat to the man.  He tested his art out and saw it too was lacking...since then, he moved to the states and began learning mma / jiujitsu....and actually entered some tournaments....I do believe he's a true martial artist looking for the truth...I don't know much about Dewey...But at least he's out there doing a good thing....at least from what I can see....


Yes, many say other arts aren’t worth studying, after reviewing certain experts though Aikido and arts like it aren’t good on their own, it’s good to study striking and grappling as well. plus making the art functional 

I think a lot of gyms are watering down everything these days, I’ve even heard many award black belts now regardless of skill and you can buy a blue belt.

I also agree with you in adapting to modern times, from what I’ve heard the old schools would be pissed if you went to another school and cross trained.

I just think we shouldn’t forget traditional arts as they also offer a lot


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## Hanzou (Sep 3, 2021)

Mider said:


> Yes, many say other arts aren’t worth studying, after reviewing certain experts though Aikido and arts like it aren’t good on their own, it’s good to study striking and grappling as well. plus making the art functional
> 
> I think a lot of gyms are watering down everything these days, I’ve even heard many award black belts now regardless of skill and you can buy a blue belt.
> 
> ...



I think what you're seeing is (as others have mentioned) people simply dismissing stuff they see as not worth learning.

And frankly, if the goal is self defense, or learning how to fight, there are a large amount of styles I simply wouldn't recommend people taking up.

If your goal is to simply learn a traditional physical form, get some exercise, and meet interesting people, you can pretty much take anything. However, if you think you can overcome people who are actually learning to fight, that's when you've gone off the rails a bit.

The great misconception is that people who participate in MMA-based martial arts aren't interested in arts outside that particular groups. Nothing could be further from the truth. Those people are always looking for new methods to change the game, and to have an edge over other competitors and groups. Hence why you see Bjj popping up every few years and tearing up MMA circuits; Because that particular art celebrates experimentation and new ways to strangle people. I personally would love to see Aikido, Kung Fu, or Ninjutsu come out of the woodwork and have practitioners changing the dynamic of the MMA world, but that is* highly* unlikely to happen.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 5, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I think what you're seeing is (as others have mentioned) people simply dismissing stuff they see as not worth learning.
> 
> And frankly, if the goal is self defense, or learning how to fight, there are a large amount of styles I simply wouldn't recommend people taking up.
> 
> ...


I think the likelihood of any aiki art making an impact on MMA is pretty slim. The aiki mechanics, as I've experienced them, are useful, but take a long time to learn to usability. They can be applied to almost any techniques, and likely yield some marginal advantage, but that advantage is at least offset (probably more than) by the learning curve. If you took my curriculum and removed the aiki-oriented stuff that takes so long to learn (but is really what interests a lot of us the most), what's left is a basic foundation of grappling and striking, and you can get that in a lot of other places, too. So really nothing there is likely to make any impact on competition.


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## Hanzou (Sep 5, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I think the likelihood of any aiki art making an impact on MMA is pretty slim. The aiki mechanics, as I've experienced them, are useful, but take a long time to learn to usability. They can be applied to almost any techniques, and likely yield some marginal advantage, but that advantage is at least offset (probably more than) by the learning curve. If you took my curriculum and removed the aiki-oriented stuff that takes so long to learn (but is really what interests a lot of us the most), what's left is a basic foundation of grappling and striking, and you can get that in a lot of other places, too. So really nothing there is likely to make any impact on competition.


And that is unfortunate. I had had high hopes that Roy Dean's mixing of Aikido and BJJ would yield some positive results, but outside of a few interesting wrist locks, and elaborate black belt ceremonies, Dean's BJJ hasn't really set the world ablaze. Danaher and Bravo embracing leg locking, and the innovative guard systems coming out of elite BJJ competitors and coaches have been the major realignment in competitive BJJ and consequently MMA ground fighting/grappling.


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