# Popularity: FMAs vs Other Arts



## geezer (Jun 10, 2010)

Ok, I'm not sure if this is a question or a rant. Here's the short of it. I practice and teach two arts, Ving Tsun and Eskrima.  It's just a small, non-commercial group. But no matter what I do, interest in the Ving Tsun is 2 to 3 times greater than Eskrima. I don't teach this for a living, so what's my problem? Basically, just that _I love doing Eskrima_, and I'd really like to get more of my students involved. But there simply isn't the same level of interest! And it's not just me, either. I have friends in the area that do a variety of different FMA's. Some are _really_ good. Not just instructor level good, but _Master level good._ And they seem to have the same problem. Too few students, not much dedication. It seems that there's way more interest in other arts ranging from the latest fads like MMA and BJJ, to Karate, Kung-fu, TKD, heck, you name it. What's up with that? Any thoughts?


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## Blindside (Jun 10, 2010)

Getting whacked by a stick hurts more than getting punched?

Honestly, I know of several very experienced martial artists who don't like working kali because of the focus on deadly weapons.  I think it has to do with either not liking the fairly practical approach that we take to weapon usage, or that it is simply to revealing of holes in their own system's defenses against the same.


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## nerdette_007 (Jun 10, 2010)

Eskrima is my first martial art, and I chose my school primarily because they offered it. I was surprised to find that its the smallest class by far, with sometimes only three of us on board...especially when kenpo and BJJ seem to draw a dozen students at the very least. So yes, I've noticed this as well. 

I think its probably a combination of beginners feeling intimidated by the weaponry, and a general hesitance to study an "exotic" MA (as opposed to the familiar and typical stuff).


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## geezer (Jun 11, 2010)

nerdette_007 said:


> I think its probably a combination of beginners feeling intimidated by the weaponry, and a general hesitance to study an "exotic" MA (as opposed to the familiar and typical stuff).



One complaint I hear is that people don't want to be dependent on weapons. They want to learn_ empty-handed_ self defense arts. But I think this is _bogus_. When I demonstrate the art I always emphasize how our  FMA concepts transition from blade to stick to empty-hands.

A better objection is that people have a limited amount of time and want to focus on their core art rather than spreading themselves too thin. That's a fair argument. But a bit hard to believe these days when so many people are all about mixing martial arts. Go figure...


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## MJS (Jun 11, 2010)

geezer said:


> Ok, I'm not sure if this is a question or a rant. Here's the short of it. I practice and teach two arts, Ving Tsun and Eskrima. It's just a small, non-commercial group. But no matter what I do, interest in the Ving Tsun is 2 to 3 times greater than Eskrima. I don't teach this for a living, so what's my problem? Basically, just that _I love doing Eskrima_, and I'd really like to get more of my students involved. But there simply isn't the same level of interest! And it's not just me, either. I have friends in the area that do a variety of different FMA's. Some are _really_ good. Not just instructor level good, but _Master level good._ And they seem to have the same problem. Too few students, not much dedication. It seems that there's way more interest in other arts ranging from the latest fads like MMA and BJJ, to Karate, Kung-fu, TKD, heck, you name it. What's up with that? Any thoughts?


 
I have no real solid reason as to why its not as popular.  Could be a number of reasons..things such as: people think its too violent, its not as cool as TKD, there aren't many kids in the class, people dont like the idea of using weapons, etc.  I could go on, but you get my point. 

What they fail to see, is that the FMAs are a weapon based art, so duh, of course weapons will be a focus.  I think they may also fail to see the fact that much of the empty hand and weapon disarms, can all be interchangable.  

There may not be 1001 FMA mcdojos around, like we see with some other arts, but fact remains, we do have dedicated schools all over the place, filled with groups of people, that enjoy training and teaching the art.

Thats all that matters to me.  IMO, I dont see the FMAs dying any too soon.


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## geezer (Jun 12, 2010)

MJS said:


> There may not be 1001 FMA mcdojos around, like we see with some other arts, but fact remains, we do have dedicated schools all over the place, filled with groups of people, that enjoy training and teaching the art.
> 
> Thats all that matters to me.  IMO, I dont see the FMAs dying any too soon.



Yeah... I guess I should consider the quality of the student versus the quantity.  It's hard to get new people involved, and a lot of folks try it once and never come back, but the few who do continue with the FMAs tend to be really committed.


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## MichaelJB (Jun 14, 2010)

Hey Geez - It may help open some peoples' eyes to take a swing at them while they are using their preferred martial art.  I did that with someone who wanted to try out his Aikido against me.  Luckily for him, I opted to use a padded stick.  He learned very quickly that, without major changes in his movements, he wasn't able to catch my hands as I struck - something he had no problem with during his classes.  Unfortunately for him, the changes he made created other opportunities for me to hit him.

But then someone already mentioned that there are many out there who'd rather not find out something like this about their art or their personal skill level...


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## Arnis7Tres5 (Jun 15, 2010)

Hi,

I'm new here.  My background's in Arnis 7-3-5, Balintawak, and now since coming to the States, PTK.

I think the lack of interest is legitimate.  And I think a lot of it comes from the fact that most FMA instructors are sub par.

I have attended seminars and demos here and the Philippines, and what I've noticed is that FMA is being taught like 1980s aerobics, only with sticks.

Demos are usually with instructors where two people hit sticks, then one is defeated, then the other twirls his sticks around rapidly, while the other just stands there.

So the real FMA isn't getting to the would-be students or other martial artists, because it's being misrepresented.  Look at MMA, kickboxing, even other East Asian arts now, they spar and get dirty.  Before we start hitting other martial artists with sticks, we should look into ourselves first.

This is just my opinion.


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2010)

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm new here. My background's in Arnis 7-3-5, Balintawak, and now since coming to the States, PTK.
> 
> ...


 
IMO, its sad when this happens in any art.  This is probably the #1 reason why people question some arts.  Its bad enough that many already have a distorted view of the martial arts in general, but when they see nothing but garbage, it does nothing but solidify that notion.  

Then again, just because there are a few jokers in the FMAs, I dont think ALL FMA people should be lumped in with them.  Fortunately there are people/groups out there that're the real deal.


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## Arnis7Tres5 (Jun 15, 2010)

MJS and all,

I don't mean to say that FMA as a whole is now sub par.  I simply mean that many (too many) are not qualified to teach and they are the ones introducing the world to FMA and its culture.  

Perception is everything.  If I'm studying Karate and some one tells me how deadly FMA is and then I get a stick twirling extravaganza, with all the BS stories to boot, then my perception will define FMA.  And you can't blame them for not being interested when this happens.


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## MJS (Jun 15, 2010)

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> MJS and all,
> 
> I don't mean to say that FMA as a whole is now sub par. I simply mean that many (too many) are not qualified to teach and they are the ones introducing the world to FMA and its culture.
> 
> Perception is everything. If I'm studying Karate and some one tells me how deadly FMA is and then I get a stick twirling extravaganza, with all the BS stories to boot, then my perception will define FMA. And you can't blame them for not being interested when this happens.


 
No worries.  Thats not how I took your post at all.  Sorry if I gave that impression.


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## geezer (Jun 15, 2010)

MichaelJB said:


> Hey Geez - It may help open some peoples' eyes to take a swing at them while they are using their preferred martial art.  I did that with someone who wanted to try out his Aikido against me.



Hahahahahahahahaha!  ahem... Sorry Mike. Nothing against Aikido... I enrolled my boy in an Aikido class. He loves it, and the instructor is awesome. But the thought of some guy going up against your stick-work empty-handed with with what typically passes for Aikido just really brings some funny images into my mind. I wish I'd been there.

Anyway, great to have you on this forum! Now, regarding the original topic of FMA popularity, how are your classes going? And are you guys still interested in getting together for some stick sparring sessions?


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## geezer (Jun 15, 2010)

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm new here.  My background's in Arnis 7-3-5, Balintawak, and now since coming to the States, PTK.



Hey Arnis735--Welcome to the FMA subforum! This FMA dept. is one of the less visited sub-forums on this site, so I'm naturally enthusiastic when we get a couple of new guys posting. Out here in Phoenix we've got some Balintawak players and some people who've studied Pekiti, but I'm in the dark about Arnis 7-3-5. Ok, I know it's off topic but what can you tell us about what you do?


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## Arnis7Tres5 (Jun 15, 2010)

Hello to you geezer and thank you.

7-3-5, comes from 7 angles of attack, 3 thrusts and 5 blocks.  I studied it as a child in Tarlac, Philippines.  It is stick focused, but the old man who taught me, who was our neighbor, Mang Pedring was an active guerilla during the Japanese occupation, and he was known for having cut down many Japanese during those war years with his Samurai sword taken from a Japanese officer.

It's not as technical as Balintawak and it's not as robust as PTK, I think it was rather pretty simple and that was the beauty of what Mang Pedring taught.  We hit tires and tree trunks, with different kinds of sticks and we sparred.  And that was it.

To connect it to the subject at hand, we did witness various challenges, from friendly, sportsman-like matches to really treacherous type fights.  I think this is where quality control of the FMA have always been.  And when this was done away with, the quality of teachers went down and this is the main reason for the lack of interest.


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## geezer (Jun 16, 2010)

Arnis7Tres5 said:


> To connect it to the subject at hand, we did witness various challenges, from friendly, sportsman-like matches to really treacherous type fights.  I think this is where quality control of the FMA have always been.  And when this was done away with, the quality of teachers went down and this is the main reason for the lack of interest.



You know, the same is true of other martial arts too. Take away the "uncivilized" challenge matches, and you take away the reality. That's probably why the interest in MMA is increasing while interest in traditional martial arts is decreasing. Even though MMA bouts are a sport, and may not be a true reflection of what would work in a real-life encounter, at least people can see the stuff "tested". Meanwhile, without such "testing" TMAs seem to become more and more removed from reality with each passing generation. This is also happening with FMAs in modern times. The last generation that actually used this stuff, mainly the Filipino heroes who resisted the Japanese during WWII, has almost entirely passed. Will the FMAs now evolve (or devolve) into a non-functional, ritualistic artform.... some sort of Filipino equivalent of Japanese Budo? Hmmm... I think topic this calls for a new thread. Please join me there.


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## MichaelJB (Jun 16, 2010)

geezer said:


> Hahahahahahahahaha!  ahem... Sorry Mike. Nothing against Aikido... I enrolled my boy in an Aikido class. He loves it, and the instructor is awesome. But the thought of some guy going up against your stick-work empty-handed with with what typically passes for Aikido just really brings some funny images into my mind. I wish I'd been there.
> 
> Anyway, great to have you on this forum! Now, regarding the original topic of FMA popularity, how are your classes going? And are you guys still interested in getting together for some stick sparring sessions?



lol...I have nothing against Aikido either.  In fact my father received his shodan directly from O-Sensei a little before I was born so I've always had an interest in the art.  But like you stated, in many cases what goes for <state art here> nowadays tends to leave a lot to be desired.  

Classes are going ok.  We're ready anytime for anything Eskrima related when you are...just let me know.


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## geezer (Jun 17, 2010)

MichaelJB said:


> Classes are going ok.  We're ready anytime for anything Eskrima related when you are...just let me know.



Honestly, Jeff hasn't pushed the sparring, so I may have to just visit your group myself and endure a few beatings, until I get a little better at it. --Steve


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## K831 (Jun 18, 2010)

Blindside said:


> Honestly, I know of several very experienced martial artists who don't like working kali because of the focus on deadly weapons. I think it has to do with either not liking the fairly practical approach that we take to weapon usage, or that it is simply to revealing of holes in their own system's defenses against the same.





MichaelJB said:


> But then someone already mentioned that there are many out there who'd rather not find out something like this about their art or their personal skill level...





nerdette_007 said:


> I think its probably a combination of beginners feeling intimidated by the weaponry, and a general hesitance to study an "exotic" MA (as opposed to the familiar and typical stuff).





MJS said:


> I people think its too violent


 
I think the above sum it up.


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## billc (Jul 13, 2010)

Some thoughts on why the FMA are not as popular as other arts.
First, I think that firearms training and the FMA are the most serious arts for actual self-defense.  If you encounter drunks at a ball game or party, or your husband or boyfriend beats you up, most of the time they do this with their bare hands.  The regular empty hand arts may be helpful in de-escalating these situations.  When the drunk uses  a bottle, or when the husband/boyfriend decides to kill their wife/girlfriend, they rarely do so with just their bare hands.  Serious life threatening or life changing self-defense encounters will involve an ambush with a weapon, a gun, a knife or a club of some sort.
Here in chicago, just recently, two women, one from Ireland, were attacked by a drug addict who hit them both in the head with a baseball bat.  The gangs in American cities do not spend hours, days and years training their gang members in the intricacies of unarmed combat.  They give the 15 year old a 9mm and send him out to kill.  In the U.K., their teenage criminals are stabbing people left and right because they are having a hard time getting guns.
Now, with this info. we get to the heart of why FMA are not as popular as other arts.  Most people are not serious about self-defense when they enter the martial arts, a lot of people go into the arts on a lark or becuase they are curious.  Most also leave.  These people see the arts from the viewpoint of popular media and popular media usually shows empty hand practitioners.  Boxing, and mixed martial arts are very popular now, Bruce Lee was popular when I was a kid.  The number of Nunchakku in schools during the bruce lee age were incredible.  The television show Leverage, has a martial arts guy in it and he always throws away any weapon he gets his hands on, for example.
Most people going into the martial arts take into account the rude drunk and not the serious career criminal who uses violence without thought, or remorse.  This steers them once again into empty hand arts.  They also may reason, I am not going to have a 2 foot stick on me and I would not bash a rude drunk with a club.  This goes double for a knife.  Most people do not see themselves pulling a knife and stabbing the rude drunk to death.   Because they are not serious about self-defense, they do not see the value of training with the weapons that they will likely face in a serious life threatening or changing encounter.  On top of this, if you do train in FMA, a real instructor will tell you, if you are faced with a knife or club, the first thing you do is run away.  This is easily understood, but once again, the rude drunk is seemingly less of  a run away from it situation.
Empty hand arts are probably less threatening to the uninformed as well.  These are just some random thoughts.


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## billc (Jul 13, 2010)

Another thought from the above ones, people in BJJ or MMA or karate who stick with it over a long period may not be as concerned with actual self-dense as the people who focus on firearms in particular and FMA in general.  They tend to be young, strong and male, although this is not an absolute.  They may also have not experienced or thought about real violence to the same degree as shooters and FMA students.


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## bekkilyn (Jul 13, 2010)

Another possibility is that many people have never heard of these arts before. Everyone has heard of Kung Fu and Karate, and TKD is everywhere these days, but what is the chance that a random someone who is interested in taking "a martial art" is going to know to look up Kali or Escrima?

It doesn't explain the people who do make it to a class and leave, but then the same happens in other martial arts classes if people are trying out different studios, or it turns out to be not what they expected.


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## billc (Jul 13, 2010)

Part of the problem as you say is lack of awareness of the existence of FMA.  The instructors of the arts need to get out more and promote the arts at the local level.  A lot of karate instsructors build a student base by teaching through  community park districts, Ymca's and they go to the various town celebrations and demonstrate in public.  They also need to explain the value of training against the weapons of real criminals.


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## geezer (Jul 14, 2010)

bekkilyn said:


> Another possibility is that many people have never heard of these arts before. Everyone has heard of Kung Fu and Karate, and TKD is everywhere these days, but what is the chance that a random someone who is interested in taking "a martial art" is going to know to look up Kali or Escrima?.



A related point is the _"Cool-ness"_ factor. In the 60's when Karate broke out of obscurity, it got used in the movies and media. Elvis did it. James Bond and all the other cold war super-spies did it. And there were the "Easterns", Japan's re-interpretation of Americas "Western" movies. Films like the Seven Samurai, Yojimbo, Sanjuro... Basically, Karate became Cool.

In the 70's, Bruce Lee's movies  and the "Kung-fu" TV series brought CMA into the limelight. The 80's brought in Ninjutsu. And, finally, Hollywood's excess as well as the McDojo phenomenon began to make it all look like a joke. MMA stuff is now all the rage. And when you consider how cheesy the current presentation of "traditional" martial arts has become, is anyone surprised. At least UFC stuff is _believable_.

If FMA ever got a notch above obscurity, it was probably due Dan Inosanto. But outside the martial crowd and Bruce Lee fans, I don't think may people even noticed. And what attention there was seems to have been focused more on JKD than FMA. Somehow the FMA remain unknown at large, and_ the Philippines as a culture has never gained the coolness factor_ associated with Japan and China. How many Anime cartoons are set in the ancient Japan or China? How about the ancient Philippines?!? And video games... Any body ever hear of anybody ever play _"Archipelago of Mayem"_ ... the one based on tribal war in the Philippines? Maybe because it doesn't exist! ...yet.  Or, how about the classic, _"Grand Theft Datu"_?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 14, 2010)

geezer said:


> Somehow the FMA remain unknown at large,


 
From an ex-old school TKD guy and a CMA guy that has seen too many CMA styles fall victim to popularity.... consider yourself lucky


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## Blindside (Jul 14, 2010)

Xue Sheng said:


> From an ex-old school TKD guy and a CMA guy that has seen too many CMA styles fall victim to popularity.... consider yourself lucky


 
I'm certainly not losing any sleep over it, there is enough bad FMA already.


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