# You're Walking Down a Dark Alley - Semi Sucker Punch?



## DavyKOTWF

You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.  
   A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.  
   Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?


----------



## Martial D

DavyKOTWF said:


> You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
> A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
> Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?


I strike. If you wait for him to move first you'll have bigger problems than the law.


----------



## Buka

When one asks for trouble one usually finds it.


----------



## drop bear

Punch them if you want.


----------



## CB Jones

Not a sucker punch.

Individual took an aggressive stance understood by any reasonable person to precede an attack.  Giving you justification to defend yourself by striking out.


----------



## drop bear

By the way the witnesses are probably friends of the attacker. So as far as the law is concerned he was walking down the alley reading the bible when you hit him for no reason.


----------



## axelb

I get a taxi or drive home late at night.


----------



## Steve

I'd pull guard.


----------



## CB Jones

I'd be like.....


----------



## Headhunter

One of the biggest things about self defence is to know not to walk down dark alleys


----------



## jobo

DavyKOTWF said:


> You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
> A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
> Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?


People who are going to attack you dont jump out if the darkness in front of you and take up a boxing stance, never, pull a knife perhaps, does the guy think your someone else who is going to attack him,?

If this, or something like this did happen, then your problem is the other guy, going behind you, and the fact he is in a gaurd, mean actually hitting him may not be that easy, he is " on guard" after all,

I think the best course of action is a quick sprint and a side step, get to the street and then reconsider, when they have to come towards you, to attack, rather than wait for you to walk towards them, idf the alkey is to narrow for that, then walking backwards away from them, to keep them both in front of you, seems sensible, and the people watching may well be with them anyway


----------



## JowGaWolf

DavyKOTWF said:


> You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
> A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
> Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?


Lol.  I have never walked down a dark alley before.  Big No, No.

But if I did.  I would watch both the actions of the guy in front of me and the actions of the other guys standing by. If something is up then his friends will give away the real intent.   If they aren't his friends then they may be my way out of a bad situation.  I definitely wouldn't go back into the dark alley.  

I would create distance and maintain distance that would allow me to best see a possible attack or weapon.   At this point I probably would have scanned the environment extensively and I would be on high alert.

This is about all that I can realistically say because it's not a situation I would have put myself in.  I've walked dark streets before  and I carried myself as if I might be a threat.  This made people less willing to approach me at night on a dark street.  

A dark street gives me more options in comparison to an alley.   When I think of an Alley I think of a Trap Door Spider waiting to pull me in and make my day horrible.


----------



## DavyKOTWF

The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum.  Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently.  Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on.  I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such,  but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch.  I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance.    Do you or don't you?   For me, yes.  Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone.  Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.


----------



## Headhunter

DavyKOTWF said:


> The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum.  Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently.  Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on.  I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such,  but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch.  I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance.    Do you or don't you?   For me, yes.  Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone.  Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.


As someone already said though. No ones going to come up to you with their guard outside of a movie set. If someone wants to attack they'll come at you swinging. If they want to rob you they'll pull a weapon or pin you to the wall. No ones ever going to come at you like that.

Also that's not good advice at all. If you get into a scrap you call the police first before anyone else can. Firstly you were the one attacked so you have nothing to hide. Second if you don't call them and the other guy does. He gets his story in first and has his friends to back him up. But if you get in first and explain it was self defence you'll be alright most times


----------



## axelb

I haven't studied JKD, but what I understand from the concepts; you can intercept on timing by hitting as the opponent is bringing the guard up.
Pre timing before they begin their attack.

Sucker punch would require attacking during a distraction before they are expecting an attack. 

The detailed scenario suggests they already expect an altercation,  in fact they are encouraging one. 

Effectively you are already at the stage that most striking competitions start at, so any successful attack used in competition also applies.


----------



## wab25

DavyKOTWF said:


> Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. ) Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.


 I don't get it... why is this the thing you learned? In your situation, you already broke many of the rules that any decent self defense type class should have given you. Honestly, you probably already lost this one anyway.

You should have learned to be aware of your surroundings. This alley being so close to your house, and on your way to work, you should know if it is safe or not. Don't be on it if it is not safe. If it is safe usually, but this one time it was different... how did you end up close enough to hit the guy, in his guard before he can react? You should have noticed their presence a long time before you got there, and either crossed on the other side of the street well out of reach, or turned around to get something you forgot at the office... giving yourself a huge head start in the case that they wanted to come after you. Walking right up to a group of suspicious guys, in a dark alley and waiting till one gets into a fighting stance, close enough that you can end it with one shot, in front of his buddies... means you already lost and hopefully you will wake up.

But, yes, I agree. You should do what you need to in order to leave, then leave. In this case, it was pay attention to your environment, and never get that close. Having failed that, your chances of being the hero go way, way down.


----------



## pdg

So I'm wandering about on the street with my friend and this guy walks out of a dark alley right in front of us, it's enough of a surprise to make us stop, turn and face him.

Is he in cahoots with that group hanging around under the streetlight?

Shields up! Red alert!





Seriously, if somebody is going to accost you they're unlikely to take a stance, it ruins the fun surprise of just smacking you. Nobody does a mugging with fists unless it's hit first, make demands later.

Oh, and



DavyKOTWF said:


> Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything



You don't get how it works, do you?

The general never mans the front line, he stands and watches his troops do the work...


----------



## JR 137

JowGaWolf said:


> Lol.  I have never walked down a dark alley before.  Big No, No.
> 
> But if I did.  I would watch both the actions of the guy in front of me and the actions of the other guys standing by. If something is up then his friends will give away the real intent.   If they aren't his friends then they may be my way out of a bad situation.  I definitely wouldn't go back into the dark alley.
> 
> I would create distance and maintain distance that would allow me to best see a possible attack or weapon.   At this point I probably would have scanned the environment extensively and I would be on high alert.
> 
> This is about all that I can realistically say because it's not a situation I would have put myself in.  I've walked dark streets before  and I carried myself as if I might be a threat.  This made people less willing to approach me at night on a dark street.
> 
> A dark street gives me more options in comparison to an alley.   When I think of an Alley I think of a Trap Door Spider waiting to pull me in and make my day horrible.


I’ve peed in dark alleys before.  Staggering out of the bar, and when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go.

Never got jumped during that though.


----------



## jobo

DavyKOTWF said:


> The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum.  Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently.  Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on.  I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such,  but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch.  I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance.    Do you or don't you?   For me, yes.  Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone.  Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.


well that's the principle of most ma, this seems,a very specific scenario, but reality time, its not a movie, your out numbered 2may be 6to one, his friend(s) will almost certainly join in, and they don't take turns like they do in the,films, one grabs, you, the other punches you

can you actually take some one out with one punch,  i mean you know this as you have,done it at least a few times,some people are very resilient , and will punch you back or grab you, once you don't move, you've lost ,  there's a guy behind you now, somewhere in the,dark,

so, hit them and run, just run, or back up to keep space and your attackers in view,  or maybe say excuse me mate and step round him,


----------



## Flying Crane

The thing is, I don’t believe anybody actually walks down dark alleys, nor that people actually get attacked in that scenario.  That is such a stereotype it’s silly actually.

I feel the same way about the “bar fight” scenario.  There might be more historic truth behind that one, but I suspect it too is largely unrealistic stereotype.


----------



## DavyKOTWF

Wow.  Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise.   For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'.   Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me;  it's not a stereotype, just real.
    Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
   This is like discussing religion.  Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.     

When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard.  DKOTWF

I'm out.


----------



## drop bear

Steve said:


> I'd pull guard.


----------



## drop bear

Headhunter said:


> As someone already said though. No ones going to come up to you with their guard outside of a movie set. If someone wants to attack they'll come at you swinging. If they want to rob you they'll pull a weapon or pin you to the wall. No ones ever going to come at you like that.
> 
> Also that's not good advice at all. If you get into a scrap you call the police first before anyone else can. Firstly you were the one attacked so you have nothing to hide. Second if you don't call them and the other guy does. He gets his story in first and has his friends to back him up. But if you get in first and explain it was self defence you'll be alright most times



I dont call the cops. The less they get involved the better.

And yeah you get the occasional guy who just shapes up at people for no reason. When they have had a bad day or something.


----------



## pdg

DavyKOTWF said:


> Wow.  Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise.   For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'.   Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me;  it's not a stereotype, just real.
> Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
> This is like discussing religion.  Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.
> 
> When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard.  DKOTWF
> 
> I'm out.



Shame you're so blinkered that a few views (I can only assume including mine) make you flounce out...

As a learning exercise it's quite poor, there's very very little to learn from it.

Nobody knows the intent of these hypothetical people, and from the actual details you gave my reverse hypothesis is just as likely to be true.

I've been through plenty of dark alleys and people have been surprised when I emerged, and the reverse has also happened - nobody got hit...

Thing is, people who live in the real world have no choice but to consider the consequences of their actions - punching someone who puts their hands up is going to lead to trouble.

Other thing, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder already - saying stuff like:



DavyKOTWF said:


> Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.



Just shows this.

Again, living in the real world - where not everyone is corrupt enough to be out to get you - means there are certain rules of engagement. Punching someone who may well be acting defensively already won't do you any favours.


----------



## CB Jones

DavyKOTWF said:


> Wow.  Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise.   For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'.   Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me;  it's not a stereotype, just real.
> Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
> This is like discussing religion.  Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.
> 
> When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard.  DKOTWF
> 
> I'm out.



You posed a question and it was answered.  Why are you getting upset?


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

drop bear said:


>


You saved me some effort pulling this up


----------



## dvcochran

DavyKOTWF said:


> You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
> A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
> Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?


A. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
B. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
C. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
Seriously though, it is easier to ask for forgiveness but it could be an unnecessary hassle. Plus, you had time to address them so why didn't you get out of the way and in with the crowd. That doesn't sound like a lot of circumstance to say you were in fear for your life. Granted there were two of them. 
The first rule we teach about self defense is to not put yourself in a situation to need it.


----------



## JowGaWolf

JR 137 said:


> I’ve peed in dark alleys before.  Staggering out of the bar, and when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go.
> 
> Never got jumped during that though.


1. you were drunk so big Fail on that one lol.  If you are staggering then you probably aren't too alert at that point. 
2. Which is most important. "No one likes to get pissed on." lol.


----------



## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> Not a sucker punch.
> 
> Individual took an aggressive stance understood by any reasonable person to precede an attack.  Giving you justification to defend yourself by striking out.


I don't know. My academy training was anal about the definition of intent. It should be different for a layperson but it would be a judgement call.


----------



## JowGaWolf

DavyKOTWF said:


> The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum.  Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently.  Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on.  I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such,  but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch.  I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance.    Do you or don't you?   For me, yes.  Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone.  Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.



Here are some videos to give you a better idea of how attacks happen


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I’ve peed in dark alleys before.  Staggering out of the bar, and when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go.
> 
> Never got jumped during that though.


I have been in California only twice, L.A. to be exact. The closest I have ever been to being "mugged", I was walking down Sunset Strip gawking at everything not really paying attention. There were two of us and I was foolishly walking next to the buildings. A guy came out of an alley and sucker punched me hard enough to crack the bone above my eye. I think he had a small shank in his hand because the cut was really deep and long. I went to my knee but didn't get knocked out. When I stood back up he was half way down the alley running hard. To this day I don't know if he expected it to knock me out so he could roll me, thought I was alone, or was it just plain meanness. Learned some hard lessons that day.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> Here are some videos to give you a better idea of how attacks happen


Trust me, I know; video not needed.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

dvcochran said:


> I have been in California only twice, L.A. to be exact. The closest I have ever been to being "mugged", I was walking down Sunset Strip gawking at everything not really paying attention. There were two of us and I was foolishly walking next to the buildings. A guy came out of an alley and sucker punched me hard enough to crack the bone above my eye. I think he had a small shank in his hand because the cut was really deep and long. I went to my knee but didn't get knocked out. When I stood back up he was half way down the alley running hard. To this day I don't know if he expected it to knock me out so he could roll me, thought I was alone, or was it just plain meanness. Learned some hard lessons that day.


Depending on age and area (I don't know sunset strip, not being form there), it may have been a gang initiation thing. Or a dare from friends.


----------



## JowGaWolf

DavyKOTWF said:


> Wow. Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise.


You have to look at it from a Self-defense perspective which is to avoid putting ones-self in dangerous situations from the beginning.  



DavyKOTWF said:


> For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'.


for me personally I have never been in a situation of where I couldn't scan the area.  Even when I walked down dark streets, I give myself extra room when walking by an area where someone can just jump out like that.   If I can't scan the area then I don't go down that path.  

Like the stuff in this video has a lot of places you can't scan, but more importantly look where you see the majority of the people.  





Different city same behavior.  You don't see people hanging around alley entrances.  I'm not saying that there aren't people in the alley.  But I am saying that those type of people are the ones you don't want to meet.  Walk up on a drug deal, rape, druggies and other criminals and you may have a really bad night.  Even homeless people try to stay out of the alley.


----------



## JowGaWolf

dvcochran said:


> Trust me, I know; video not needed.


My post was for the OP.  I wasn't pointing it out to you.  Just thought the OP could use some help in creating an accurate scenario.


----------



## CB Jones

dvcochran said:


> I don't know. My academy training was anal about the definition of intent. It should be different for a layperson but it would be a judgement call.



Doesn't matter his intent.  Perceiving someone stepping toward you with raised fists in a "Boxer's Stance" as an imminent threat should be considered a reasonable and justifies you to use reasonable force to defend yourself.


----------



## axelb

You setup a specific scenario and don't get the answers you wanted to read?

With that attitude, when you launch a strike at someone in this scenario and do not get the reaction you wanted from the attacker, how are you going to deal with that?

Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.


----------



## JowGaWolf

axelb said:


> With that attitude, when you launch a strike at someone in this scenario and do not get the reaction you wanted from the attacker, how are you going to deal with that?


This is why my answer stopped at me creating distance.  The attacker may be taller than me, bigger than me, stronger than me, he may have boxing / fight experience.  I can't assume that a future attacker can't defeat me, I can only take advantages of the opportunities that come up between him jumping at me and attacking.

If the attacker jumps out and punches at me, who is to say he doesn't throw is own flurry of combinations.  The trouble with "what if scenarios" for self-defense is that in real life things don't happen as planned.  No criminal sets up appointments with there victim and say "I'm going to jump you in a dark alley on x date and x time.  Stuff like that comes out of the blue.  If people actually expect something like that to happen then, most likely they will do things to prevent it from happening, such as avoiding bad areas, or travel through bad areas in a manner that lowers their risks.  I think this is where most people's minds were at, because it was a scenario that many of us actively try to avoid whenever possible (dark alley at night scenarios).


----------



## Gerry Seymour

DavyKOTWF said:


> The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum.  Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently.  Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on.  I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such,  but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch.  I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance.    Do you or don't you?   For me, yes.  Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone.  Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. )   Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.


Given the circumstance, I'd probably strike. If I'm in range to hit him, then there's a person within range who has indicated his intent to hit me. I can probably get my punch in before he realizes I'm a counter-threat. Legally (if the circumstances are known) this is reasonable: a reasonable person would fear being hit by a stranger who, stepping within striking distance, took a fighting stance.

Of course, once you throw that first punch, any or all of the guys in the area might decide to help, and you don't know who they'll help, so a better course of action might have been taken moments earlier, or right before you stepped into the alley.


----------



## CB Jones

I don’t always walk down a dark alley but when I do...I punch everyone


----------



## ShortBridge

DavyKOTWF said:


> ...  Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?



No one commented on the legal question. I have a friend who lectures and has written books on this subject that some of you have likely read. I have somewhat different views and this is fundamentally what I tell my students:

First of all the actual law depends on the country, state, and sometimes even more local jurisdictions. Anyone who really wants to work this out, needs to do so in the place that they live and then remember that when you are traveling it may not exactly apply. Get your information from local experts.

But, let's break this down further:

*The Law* - Written laws are usually pretty clear. Research them and/or consult with an attorney.

*Will you be arrested?* - A totally different question. Police on the scene will decide who to arrest. They might take your information and let you go, they might apprehend you and take you in for an hour or over night. They don't only arrest people who they know will be charged, prosecuted, and convicted. Sometimes, they just feel the need to get someone in custody, off the street. Before local marijuana laws changed to the point where they currently are in Washington, a Seattle cop friend explained to me that though it was illegal, personal possession was the city attorney's lowest prosecution priority. Meaning, if they got all their other work done and there was no crime left to be prosecuted that month, they might actually charge and prosecute a personal marijuana possession.  Of course that was never the case, so police had no interest in arresting someone and taking both suspect and arresting officer off of the street for an hour only to have them released. BUT, if they felt like they were a danger to themselves or someone else or they were on their way to commit a violent crime, or they wanted to effect a legal search, they could use the dime bag to put them in jail for the night and avoid something worse. It was against "the law" and it is a valid arrest, though charges will be dropped. Point is, police on the scene get to decide who to arrest and who to let go. Whether or not you are arrested or spend a night in jail is a different question than were you justified?

*Will you be charged/prosecuted?* - On one level I don't believe that law enforcement institutions are inherently corrupt, as Davy indicated. But, they do have their problems and some are worse than others. Putting that aside, the city/district attorney will decide afterward, whether or not you were arrested, whether to charge you. This could be based on a variety of things, virtually none of which are within your control at this point. If you punch one guy in the face, he may shake it off, take you down and beat you stupid. Same punch, different guy, he might hit his head on the dark alley and die. Maybe he had a medical problem and would have died that night anyway, maybe it was a freak accident, it happens. Don't throw the punch if you aren't prepared to deal with whatever the result ends up being. Prosecutors have careers just like the rest of us and their win/loss record is essential to them. They chose cases that they think they can win and tend not to pursue cases where they doubt it. That has nothing to do with "the law" or "what's legal", but it's almost the more relevant question, right up there with "what else is on their plate right now?"

*Will you be convicted?* - This is really what I think most people mean when they ask about the law. It's really a different question, though. How good is the prosecutor? How good is your attorney? How much can you afford to spend on your defense and how long can you be tied up with the process? How much/little did you help them build their case after the fact? How sympathetic is the victim? (no way for you to know in the alley) Your race might be a factor. The person who you hurt's race might be a factor. The judge might be a factor. The jury will be a factor. For these reasons, most cases settle. It becomes a crap shoot that most accused people are uncomfortable with. None of this has very much to do with the actual law. Whatever the law is in your area, you might be arrested, you might be prosecuted, you might be convicted. There are laws everywhere about one person using violence against another person. When they apply to an incident involves a lot of human decision making. What you should be concerned with is "will it result in litigation?"

I actually think that "law abiding" citizens working out ahead of time when they can legally justify violence against another person creates a lot of newsworthy stories of tragedy. I won't cite any because we'll divide up into camps and start calling each other names. But, if I have a student or someone who wants to be a student who I suspect is thinking this way, we sort it out or I don't teach them.

Personally, I don't want to hurt anyone. I am committed to my personal safety. That means making good choices and being prepared to use my training to survive an assault. I trust myself and my judgement knowing that it can't be perfect and people do make mistakes, sometimes fatal ones. If I have really good situational awareness, avoid problems and am good as de-escallation (which I am) and am not too proud to run to safety if that's my best option, then I'm only going to resort to physical self defense because I had to. At that point, I have to survive the next 2 minutes and I can't be thinking about my legal defense until its over.

Complicated, cascading legal checklists to run down in a figurative dark alley with shady figures approaching you will prevent you from acting in your own best interest.*

*I'm not an attorney.
**The opinions of this poster are for entertainment purposes only and should not be considered legal advice.
***Stay in school, don't do drugs.


----------



## Steve

dvcochran said:


> I don't know. My academy training was anal.


This is a family friendly forum, man.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> This is a family friendly forum, man.


Is that word not family friendly when referring to the freudian stage? Genuine question; dont have kids so i never thought about it before.


----------



## Buka

I believe the initial premise is flawed. It could just as easily have read "You enter a biker bar dressed as a mime wearing chaps"

Which, of course, you know you shouldn't be doing. You know, unless you happen to be into that sort of thing. 

Just like you shouldn't be walking down no dark alley that you are not familiar with at night. There be boogie men down dark alleys.

Now, what the hell did I do with them chaps?


----------



## JR 137

Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...

You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am.  Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie.  You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times).  A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.

His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.

Whatta ya do?  You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...
> 
> You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am.  Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie.  You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times).  A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.
> 
> His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.
> 
> Whatta ya do?  You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.


Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.


----------



## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.


There’s no doubt in your mind it’s a gun, and he’s pulling it out, if that changes anything.


----------



## ShortBridge

kempodisciple said:


> Find out what he wants. I dont trust myself that in that moment i would act optimally to prevent the gun being pulled out, once it is if i attack im probably dead, and running wouldnt do much either. Most likely situations imo are either hes pulling out a cigarette, i saw the gun and in my panic just assumed he was pulling it out, or hes mugging me at which point id rather give him my wallet then take that risk.



Actually, according to Rory Miller, running might be your best option. I don't have the sited study here, but distance made the biggest difference between surviving and being shot dead. The second biggest factor was cover, so run fast, away from the shooter toward cover. Don't zig zag, go for distance and cover. As I remember it:

1) A person brandishing a gun may not be intending to fire the gun, don't stick around and wait for instructions, be gone like a jack rabbit.
2) Accuracy under pressure, in the dark  is harder than most people think and every foot of distance between you and the gun reduces the likelihood of a fatal shot.
3) Non-fatal gun shots are more common than you realize, even if you get hit, keep moving away from the shooter.

All of things things (according to a study cited in "Meditations on Violence") increase your chances of surviving a gunshot.


Certainly there are also fight options. I'll mostly let other people fall for the trick of talking about how they would use their training to disarm and defeat someone, but system agnostic. Speed, timing, range, control, and inflict maximum, overwhelming, unrelenting damage.


I don't know which of the two is a better bet. Depends on a lot of things. In either scenario, time and space are major factors. Frankly, I know what "you got a light?" means off of Fordham Road at 2am and I hope that I would have been working this out and moving to action before I saw the gun, but you never know until you are there, no matter how much training you've done.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShortBridge said:


> Actually, according to Rory Miller, running might be your best option. I don't have the sited study here, but distance made the biggest difference between surviving and being shot dead. The second biggest factor was cover, so run fast, away from the shooter toward cover. Don't zig zag, go for distance and cover. As I remember it:
> 
> 1) A person brandishing a gun may not be intending to fire the gun, don't stick around and wait for instructions, be gone like a jack rabbit.
> 2) Accuracy under pressure in the dark is harder than most people think and every foot of distance between you and the gun reduces the likelihood of a fatal shot.
> 3) Non-fatal gun shots are more common than you realize, even if you get hit, keep moving away from the shooter.
> 
> All of things things (according to a study cited in "Meditations on Violence") increase your chances of surviving a gunshot.
> 
> 
> Certainly there are also fight options. I'll mostly let other people fall for the trick of talking about how they would use their training to disarm and defeat someone, but system agnostic. Speed, timing, range, control, and inflict maximum, overwhelming, unrelenting damage.
> 
> 
> I don't know which of the two is a better bet. Depends on a lot of things. In either scenario, time and space are major factors. Frankly, I know what "you got a light?" means off of Fordham Road at 2am and I hope that I would have been working this out and moving to action before I saw the gun, but you never know until you are there, no matter how much training you've done.


Distance would make a difference. But thats assuming that the person shot at you. My goal would be to try to get the guy not have a reason to shoot me. I would have to see that study though, could change my view since its based more on personal logic than statistics.


----------



## ShortBridge

kempodisciple said:


> Distance would make a difference. But thats assuming that the person shot at you. My goal would be to try to get the guy not have a reason to shoot me. I would have to see that study though, could change my view since its based more on personal logic than statistics.



I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.

But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.

The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.

What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.

The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.

Fight or flight?

Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.

If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well? 

When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.

These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.


----------



## Steve

kempodisciple said:


> Is that word not family friendly when referring to the freudian stage? Genuine question; dont have kids so i never thought about it before.


Which word?  Academy?


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.
> 
> But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.
> 
> The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.
> 
> What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.
> 
> The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.
> 
> Fight or flight?
> 
> Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.
> 
> If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well?
> 
> When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.
> 
> These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.


Sorry, but it’s not a fictional character nor scenario.  Maybe stereotypical, but that doesn’t make it fictional.

It happened to me.  I’ll give specifics when I’ve got a few more minutes.


----------



## ShortBridge

JR 137 said:


> Sorry, but it’s not a fictional character nor scenario.  Maybe stereotypical, but that doesn’t make it fictional.
> 
> It happened to me.  I’ll give specifics when I’ve got a few more minutes.



Okay, I meant no offense and I don't doubt you. These things do happen. My answers above are still my answers, but I'll be interested to hear how things really played out. 

Though...I sort of know the ending. Like I tell my son "you know there's a Spiderman 3, so you don't have to worry about him dying in this movie."


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShortBridge said:


> I'm pretty sure that it is cited from Rory Miller's book "Meditations on Violence", but it's been a while since I read it. I think my copy is loaned out or I'd be happy to send it to you. I'll look for it on Monday.
> 
> But, I'm going to push back on your plan a little bit further. We're dealing with fictional and somewhat stereotypical characters here, but there's not really an alternative for a discussion like this.
> 
> The guy we're dealing with has a plan. Asking you for a light wasn't about getting a light, it was the first step in his plan, to get you to stop and search your pockets for a light, even though you know you don't have one and distract you with your own polite explanation while he went to the next step on his plan...which apparently involves a gun at this point.
> 
> What's next? Don't know. You're curious and want to find out, but you know it's bad. It might be shoot you dead. It might be demand your wallet, it might be "get in the car so I can take you someplace to do something to you that I don't want to do here." If he just wants you wallet, give it to him, but there's no way for you to know that and if it's something else....it's not something good.
> 
> The overwhelming statistics suggest that he has done this before. That this is something that he does. He's experienced with it, you're not. He knows the plan, you don't. Very, very unlikely that you are the first. His goal is to stick to that plan. Why do you think you can persuade him to abort and decide to be a good guy? I'm pretty good at dealing with crazy people, drunk people, upset people, even bullies. But JR laid out a scenario of an armed predator. You're not going to talk him out of it and your cooperation is actually part of his plan.
> 
> Fight or flight?
> 
> Unarmed defense against an armed assailant is high risk and extremely ill-advised, but might be your best option depending on your training, his experience and your ability to command time and space and do serious damage very quickly. I don't want to talk about armed defenses, I'll let other people do that and surely they are on their way to this discussion right now.
> 
> If you're alone, flight might be a better option. It isn't part of his plan, so now he has to decide if, since his plan has fallen apart, does he really want to discharge his firearm on a city street or just pick a more compliant victim. While he's deciding you're adding distance and hopefully cover to the equation. If you're not alone, the decision to run gets much more complicated. Are you with a date? Is it a first date? Is it going well?
> 
> When I'm with my wife or my son, flight is not as ready of an option. I've impressed upon them to jackrabbit. I'll leave if and when I can, but I can't as long as they are there, so the best way for them to help me be safe, is to get the hell out of dodge. And, I might have to engage in this scenario.
> 
> These decisions, to me, are critical self defense training. Think about them now and make some decisions and then train around those scenarios and decisions. Then, as others said, try to avoid finding out.


Read through this, but going to read through it a few times. My library has an extensive database so I'll look through there for the book. 

As for him doing it before, my assumption (again based on my own internal logic), would be that he has succeeded at what he's doing before, and if he's smart he doesn't want to leave a trail of bodies, here or elsewhere. So most likely if he succeeds at what he's doing I will be alive (from what I've heard the most likely thing is a mugging in this situation). But if I run, he may choose it's not worth the risk, or he may panic that I'm going to get the cops or something similar, shoot and leave. 

Now if I'm not alone, if I have my fiancee or my parents with me, chances are I most likely would engage while instructing them to leave.


----------



## ShortBridge

So, we're arriving at different conclusions on your 2nd paragraph and that's cool. I'm open, if it's just my wallet, it's not worth dying for, but if it's not, at some point, I'm going to have to abruptly and shockingly act, whether that is to engage or bolt. As time passes and we feel each other out, it get's tough to do something unexpected. 

We're aligned on your third paragraph. Things change if people you care about and are responsible for are with you.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> This is a family friendly forum, man.


Ok, now you are being like the mainstream media, cutting out the part of a comment to fit the story. haha.


----------



## dvcochran

CB Jones said:


> Doesn't matter his intent.  Perceiving someone stepping toward you with raised fists in a "Boxer's Stance" as an imminent threat should be considered a reasonable and justifies you to use reasonable force to defend yourself.


Probably so but you will still get dragged through the legal crap. Better safe than sorry though.


----------



## dvcochran

JowGaWolf said:


> My post was for the OP.  I wasn't pointing it out to you.  Just thought the OP could use some help in creating an accurate scenario.


Understood. I had just finished a post about an attack and I guess my emotions were a little amped. No harm, no foul.


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> Okay, I meant no offense and I don't doubt you. These things do happen. My answers above are still my answers, but I'll be interested to hear how things really played out.
> 
> Though...I sort of know the ending. Like I tell my son "you know there's a Spiderman 3, so you don't have to worry about him dying in this movie."


No offense taken.  And I didn’t think you doubted me.

I was walking down Arthur Ave around 2 am.  Walking like I always did/do in that and similar areas - walking quickly, but not fast, just at a pace where I had to be somewhere and knew where I was going.  Head up, eyes basically scanning left to right.  Not making eye contact with anyone, kind of like looking through people.

A guy is walking down the sidewalk coming in my direction.  When he’s within earshot, so to speak, asks me “do you have a light?”  That gets me to briefly make eye contact.  As I’m saying “I don’t smoke” he’s pulling out a gun.  At that point I’m just a little further than an arm’s reach.

Once I saw what he was doing, I instantly stepped in with a right hook to right under his eye.  I never hit someone so hard before nor since.  He dropped straight down, and I gave him 3 or 4 soccer kicks to the ribs.  Then I ran.  Faster than I’ve ever ran before.

I think the punch knocked him out cold, but I honestly don’t know.  He didn’t move much, and didn’t make any noise.

I honestly didn’t think at all.  There wasn’t any time to.  The only thought was “sh!t” and I did what I did.

I went over all the what if’s in my head for a long time afterwards...

What did he really want?  Probably my wallet, but he didn’t get the chance to say so.
If I gave it to him would he have shot me anyway?
What if he was just a psychopath who was going to shoot me for no reason at all?
What if I didn’t drop him?
What if he shot me after I started running (after I hit him)?
What if I ran instead of hitting him?
What would he have chased me or shot at me?

And on and on.  Then the whole what about my wife if I was shot type stuff.

The next day at work, all I could think about was how stupid I was for doing that rather than giving up whatever he wanted.  My boss at the time who was more like a friend had the best advice.  He said (paraphrasing) “you’re still alive and not injured, so you did the right thing.  Forget about the what if’s and think about what actually is - you’re alive and not injured.” Then he laughs and says “and you still have your $10.”

Honestly, it was probably amateur hour.  He was too close.  If he was any further away, it wouldn’t have gone down that way.  I didn’t have time to run.  It happened to quickly and he was too close for me to run.  The whole situation was what it was, and I’m over it.  It was about 12 years ago and hasn’t bother me in a long time.  I can look at it pretty objectively now without much emotion. 

It sounds stupid, but once I saw him reaching for the gun, it just went into slow motion until I punched him.  Same as a car accident I had back in college - I saw the car coming, and I knew there was nothing I could do.  It went into slow motion until the car actually hit mine.  And the thought was the same - “sh!t.”

Edit: in the spirit of the thread - if you know an attack is coming, striking first is justifiable.


----------



## ShortBridge

Great outcome.

You'll never know what he intended, but clearly he didn't get it, you inturpted his plan and insured your own safety. 

Right thing to do every time? Who knows? Right thing for everyone? Definitely not. 

Seems to me that you made the right split second decision under extreme duress, though. That's a big win for you.

Curious if you recall what happened to the gun after he went down. Still in his hand? Loose on the sidewalk? When I think through scerarios, I always contimplate kicking it under a parked car or dropping it in a mailbox or something on my way out, just to remove it from the equation, but that's academic in your story. I make no claims that I would have done better or even as well.

Hopefully this guy is on mooktalk telling his version of this story right now.


----------



## CB Jones

Once, I was walking down Arthur Ave and it was around 2 am.  When I see this guy walking down the street continuously looking left and right at people but not making eye contact.  I assumed he wanted to light a cigarette and was looking for someone with a lighter.  

When he got close to me I asked him... “do you have a light?” just trying to be nice.  As I pull out this cool faux gun lighter to offer him he just unloads on me with a right hook without warning and after I fell down begins kicking me in the ribs until he turns and runs away. 

Crazy right?


----------



## jobo

JR 137 said:


> Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...
> 
> You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am.  Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie.  You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times).  A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.
> 
> His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.
> 
> Whatta ya do?  You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.


Thats Where this situaTion always goes wrong, if i ask someOne asks for a light, and they reply " i dont smoke" i feel like Punching them, i didnt ask if they smoke, that infomation is of no use to me, i want to know if they have a light, a question i still havent got an answer to.

Just say, sorry mate, no. Then they wouldnt feel the need to shoot you


----------



## JR 137

jobo said:


> Thats Where this situaTion always goes wrong, if i ask someOne asks for a light, and they reply " i dont smoke" i feel like Punching them, i didnt ask if they smoke, that infomation is of no use to me, i want to know if they have a light, a question i still havent got an answer to.
> 
> Just say, sorry mate, no. Then they wouldnt feel the need to shoot you


Good way to look at it.  Kind of like when I ask my wife if she wants A or B, and I get a “yes.”  Which F’in one?


----------



## JR 137

CB Jones said:


> Once, I was walking down Arthur Ave and it was around 2 am.  When I see this guy walking down the street continuously looking left and right at people but not making eye contact.  I assumed he wanted to light a cigarette and was looking for someone with a lighter.
> 
> When he got close to me I asked him... “do you have a light?” just trying to be nice.  As I pull out this cool faux gun lighter to offer him he just unloads on me with a right hook without warning and after I fell down begins kicking me in the ribs until he turns and runs away.
> 
> Crazy right?


You deserved it for carrying a fake gun


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> Great outcome.
> 
> You'll never know what he intended, but clearly he didn't get it, you inturpted his plan and insured your own safety.
> 
> Right thing to do every time? Who knows? Right thing for everyone? Definitely not.
> 
> Seems to me that you made the right split second decision under extreme duress, though. That's a big win for you.
> 
> Curious if you recall what happened to the gun after he went down. Still in his hand? Loose on the sidewalk? When I think through scerarios, I always contimplate kicking it under a parked car or dropping it in a mailbox or something on my way out, just to remove it from the equation, but that's academic in your story. I make no claims that I would have done better or even as well.
> 
> Hopefully this guy is on mooktalk telling his version of this story right now.


I thought about that too, after the fact.  One of my what if’s.

What I did wouldn’t work every time.  Another step or two away, and he’d have been out of range, changing the entire scenario.


----------



## Anarax

DavyKOTWF said:


> You got off work late.  It's dark outside.  You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley.  So to save time, you take the shortcut.  You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
> A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit.   You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area.   One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position.  There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
> Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance?  (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this)    Is this legal?  Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there?   Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch?  Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?



Legal ramifications are a huge part of situational awareness and use of force. The second they blocked my exit I would have turned around. Avoiding the setup of I walked towards them and hit first is going to look bad. However, if I turned around to go another route and they followed then that will at least show they sought me out/potentially instigated it. Just walking towards them while saying hello isn't what I would do. Two people in a poorly lit alley way is a bad situation for anyone, I'm not playing on their terms.


----------



## ShortBridge

JR 137 said:


> I thought about that too, after the fact.  One of my what if’s.
> 
> What I did wouldn’t work every time.  Another step or two away, and he’d have been out of range, changing the entire scenario.



But then you may have made an adjustment. You have to feel good about how you handled it. It really couldn't have gone any better.


----------



## dvcochran

dvcochran said:


> I have been in California only twice, L.A. to be exact. The closest I have ever been to being "mugged", I was walking down Sunset Strip gawking at everything not really paying attention. There were two of us and I was foolishly walking next to the buildings. A guy came out of an alley and sucker punched me hard enough to crack the bone above my eye. I think he had a small shank in his hand because the cut was really deep and long. I went to my knee but didn't get knocked out. When I stood back up he was half way down the alley running hard. To this day I don't know if he expected it to knock me out so he could roll me, thought I was alone, or was it just plain meanness. Learned some hard lessons that day.


Adding to my post. L.A. California, just sucks. Period.
The attack I mentioned earlier happened when I was near my prime in athletic ability. For a long time I took a hit to my pride also, thinking I should have easily been able to avoid it or deal with it without harm.* I would have strongly advocated striking first back then.* Like I said earlier, there was a lot of fault on my own by not by not being aware of my surroundings. 
Fast forward three years. I am back in L.A. for the same company going to the same place. I had taken a cab down Sunset to go to the Whiskey GoGo club (look it up, great history). I got out of the cab and walked about 10 feet when a guy I was aware of quickly turned toward me and presented a knife. He started to talk (I made sure we had eye contact) but before he could really say anything, I stepped to the side. outside parry blocked the arm with the knife and took control of it. Then palm heeled the elbow. Crack. The knife went flying and he went down as I controlled the arm. I stomped his head twice and felt the arm go limp. I then took one step back still controlling the arm to check for movement. None. Just to be sure I did three had stomps to the ribs. No movement. I stepped back to check the environment. The street was busy but people just kept walking like he was just a piece of debris on the sidewalk. I went into the GOGo and enjoyed the evening never hearing anything about what had happened outside. 
I think the three rib stomps may have been for the first attack. Who knows. My point is I learned my lesson from the first attack and it paid off the next time. 
Age and experience has taught me there are times you will not see a life event coming, death, accidents, even attacks. Without exception, *strike first/strike fast is an incontrovertible rule to live by*. However, when I start the "what if game" my age and experience knows the repercussions of the rule. So I am not arguing the rule, just want people to understand in this screwed up day and age it likely will not be a black & white situation.


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> But then you may have made an adjustment. You have to feel good about how you handled it. It really couldn't have gone any better.


What you can and should and shouldn’t do all depends on a ton of factors.  Sometimes you’ve got room and opportunity to run; sometimes you don’t.  Sometimes you’ve got opportunity to strike, sometimes you don’t.  Sometimes you can yell for help, sometimes you can’t.

There’s way too many variables to take into consideration.  I read what you guys were posting about Geoff Thompson’s stuff like running in a straight line away from the gunman and a bunch of other stuff from him and others.  That’s all fine and good if the situation allows it.  A lot of the RBSD stuff I’ve seen is too rigid in a sense.  Too much “he’ll do this, and you do that” or “this is the best way to address this” type stuff.  When does a fight go exactly as planned?  When does an unexpected attack ever go as planned?  It doesn’t.


----------



## JR 137

While I’m on Fordham Rd and the area, here’s a way quite a few people I know directly got jacked, and I’ve heard a lot of people say their friends got the same thing (I worked at Fordham University, right on Fordham Rd)...

In broad daylight, a guy would walk right up to you as you’re walking down the street.  He’d stop right in front of you and two guys would be shoulder to shoulder with you.  He’d say “I have a gun.  The guys next to you have their’s pointed at you right now.  Take your wallet out, hand me all your money, shake my hand, and put your wallet back into your pocket.”

You’ve got to admit, they’re pretty good.  

Once I heard about that, I left my wallet, phone, watch, etc. in my desk whenever I needed to go that way.  I’d have a few singles in my back pocket, and any other cash elsewhere.  I never got approached, so I don’t know what they would’ve done if all I gave them was a few singles.


----------



## ShortBridge

JR 137 said:


> What you can and should and shouldn’t do all depends on a ton of factors.  Sometimes you’ve got room and opportunity to run; sometimes you don’t.  Sometimes you’ve got opportunity to strike, sometimes you don’t.  Sometimes you can yell for help, sometimes you can’t.
> 
> There’s way too many variables to take into consideration.  I read what you guys were posting about Geoff Thompson’s stuff like running in a straight line away from the gunman and a bunch of other stuff from him and others.  That’s all fine and good if the situation allows it.  A lot of the RBSD stuff I’ve seen is too rigid in a sense.  Too much “he’ll do this, and you do that” or “this is the best way to address this” type stuff.  When does a fight go exactly as planned?  When does an unexpected attack ever go as planned?  It doesn’t.



I agree with you. Those studies are informative to me. Drills and training that I do is informative to me. When stuff happens, you're going to do something and hope for the best. Good training and having worked out some of the critical thinking about options ahead of time helps and might help you avoid paralysis. Just like an infielder, gets a bunch of data, watches a bunch of film, does a ton of drills, and fields 1,000,000 ground balls, but in the game, something weird comes off of the bat and they do something. Sometimes it works out, some times it doesn't. How good they are, how good their training was, and happenstance all factor into their success, but they also don't have foolproof, hard and fast prescriptions for how to field a real batted ball, in a real baseball game. But, their odds of success are much better than mine or any person who hasn't done that work.

"Take your money out, hand it to me, shake my hand and put your wallet back in your pocket in full view of dozens of witnesses?" You betcha! Not worth dying for. 

I think about and I train my students to prepare for increasing their odds of avoiding and if not, surviving an assault. I think that increases their odds over training them for belts or chi sao tournaments, but I suppose you could do both, as long as you maintained perspective.

This has turned into a very good thread. Thank you guys for your contributions.


----------



## JR 137

ShortBridge said:


> I agree with you. Those studies are informative to me. Drills and training that I do is informative to me. When stuff happens, you're going to do something and hope for the best. Good training and having worked out some of the critical thinking about options ahead of time helps and might help you avoid paralysis. Just like an infielder, gets a bunch of data, watches a bunch of film, does a ton of drills, and fields 1,000,000 ground balls, but in the game, something weird comes off of the bat and they do something. Sometimes it works out, some times it doesn't. How good they are, how good their training was, and happenstance all factor into their success, but they also don't have foolproof, hard and fast prescriptions for how to field a real batted ball, in a real baseball game. But, their odds of success are much better than mine or any person who hasn't done that work.
> 
> "Take your money out, hand it to me, shake my hand and put your wallet back in your pocket in full view of dozens of witnesses?" You betcha! Not worth dying for.
> 
> I think about and I train my students to prepare for increasing their odds of avoiding and if not, surviving an assault. I think that increases their odds over training them for belts or chi sao tournaments, but I suppose you could do both, as long as you maintained perspective.
> 
> This has turned into a very good thread. Thank you guys for your contributions.


I like and agree with your post, so I think I hit like.

Drills are for exactly as you described.  Your infielder analogy is right on IMO.  There’s so many variables to the infielder’s response to that ground ball - how many base runners and where they are, how many outs, the score, etc.; not to mention how it comes off the bat.  The situation’s going to dictate the response.  The best an MA instructor can do is give a few responses, and teach principles rather than rigid responses.


----------



## Flying Crane

Buka said:


> Now, what the hell did I do with them chaps?



I was gonna use them again tonight, but if you need them I’ll get them back to you...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

JR 137 said:


> Ok, realistic scenario for the types that can’t see past the OP’s case...
> 
> You’re walking down a side street off Fordham Rd in the Bronx at about 2 am.  Arthur Ave for those who may be familiar with the area and/or the A Bronx Tale movie.  You’re minding your business and walking quickly, but not giving off signs that you’re an easy target (that you know of, as you’ve been around that neighborhood many times).  A guy walking towards you asks for a light, and as you’re replying “I don’t smoke” he reaches into his waistband and you clearly see a gun being pulled out.
> 
> His mistake is he gets a bit too close before it’s drawn completely, so you’re within punching distance if you close in quickly enough.
> 
> Whatta ya do?  You’ve only got a fraction of a second to decide.


My fiance took me to brooklyn saturday for my birthday, had this thread running through my mind half the time. Then, she took me to a restaurant in lower manhattan called "Ninja new york", where 'ninjas' jump out at you with fake knives. was very interesting making sure I did not respond to people 'trying' to attack me with knives.


----------



## JR 137

kempodisciple said:


> My fiance took me to brooklyn saturday for my birthday, had this thread running through my mind half the time. Then, she took me to a restaurant in lower manhattan called "Ninja new york", where 'ninjas' jump out at you with fake knives. was very interesting making sure I did not respond to people 'trying' to attack me with knives.


How was the food?  I never know how to order at Japanese restaurants.  I don’t know, I guess I can’t figure out how much sushi I’m actually going to get and if I should order a few different things or is one enough.  Every time I’ve been in a sushi restaurant, it was with a bunch of people and somehow sushi got ordered and passed around.  I always get an entre instead of sushi, but I mooch everyone else’s because I’m that guy who’s got no clue in a Japanese restaurant.  I’m a big sushi fan, so you’d think I’d know how to order it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

We got a 'set' meal, to save us from having to figure it out. Cost $60 for two for just the food, came with chicken tempura, sushi, sashimi, edamame beans, fruit and steak. I was a fan, all the food was delicious. Definitely someplace to go if you enjoy that kind of thing (and are okay with people jumping out at you)

But about japanese places in general, I have the same issue as you...I never know if ordering something is just one roll, or if it's enough for an actual meal. A lot of places have a combo thing though, so if you find one of those with sushi you like it handles that worry.


----------



## ShortBridge

I'd be happy to have a date night out in (almost) any of the boroughs, but I would not enjoy a meal that involved ninjas jumping out and pretending to ambush me. Geeze, who's idea of a theme restaurant is that? We're clearly not the target market, but I can't imagine how anyone would enjoy that sort of thing in 2018 when people sometimes get randomly killed while eating out.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

ShortBridge said:


> I'd be happy to have a date night out in (almost) any of the boroughs, but I would not enjoy a meal that involved ninjas jumping out and pretending to ambush me. Geeze, who's idea of a theme restaurant is that? We're clearly not the target market, but I can't imagine how anyone would enjoy that sort of thing in 2018 when people sometimes get randomly killed while eating out.


It's apparently really popular, and I had a blast watching my fiance freak out at everyone. I think part of it is that when you are going in, you know that it's all fake. I would agree though, martial artists are probably not the target market.


----------



## JR 137

Funny thing about sushi...
I hate salmon.  Cooked any way, it’s just got that odd taste that I can’t get into.  But I love salmon sushi.  Don’t ask why.

And for the record, I love fish and seafood.  Jellyfish is the only thing from the ocean I can think of that I wouldn’t try eating.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> Funny thing about sushi...
> I hate salmon.  Cooked any way, it’s just got that odd taste that I can’t get into.  But I love salmon sushi.  Don’t ask why.
> 
> And for the record, I love fish and seafood.  Jellyfish is the only thing from the ocean I can think of that I wouldn’t try eating.


Man I love Salmon any way it is fixed. Love seafood but didn't know people ate Jellyfish but would give it a try. I do hate squid though. Can't stand the consistency.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Man I love Salmon any way it is fixed. Love seafood but didn't know people ate Jellyfish but would give it a try. I do hate squid though. Can't stand the consistency.


I don’t think anyone eats jellyfish.  Just my way of saying I’ll eat anything from the ocean that’s actually edible.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I don’t think anyone eats jellyfish.  Just my way of saying I’ll eat anything from the ocean that’s actually edible.


I did a little reading and jellyfish are pretty popular in some Asian countries. Plus they are 80% protein. Supposedly good for RA. They are prepared like noodles and mixed with other foods so  wonder how much flavor they have.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I did a little reading and jellyfish are pretty popular in some Asian countries. Plus they are 80% protein. Supposedly good for RA. They are prepared like noodles and mixed with other foods so  wonder how much flavor they have.


I can’t imagine the consistency would be appealing.  I guess it’s all in the way it’s cooked, but that can be said for anything.  I mean, if you season the hell out of doo-doo it shouldn’t taste like doo-doo if you cook it right, but I’m not going to try that either


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I can’t imagine the consistency would be appealing.  I guess it’s all in the way it’s cooked, but that can be said for anything.  I mean, if you season the hell out of doo-doo it shouldn’t taste like doo-doo if you cook it right, but I’m not going to try that either


Worst consistency I have ever eaten is squid. Just wrong.


----------



## Steve

Just stay away from Atlantic salmon.  That stuff is gross.


----------



## ShortBridge

Steve said:


> Just stay away from Atlantic salmon.  That stuff is gross.



Right. You don't expect us PacNW guys to go along with this do you? Totally different out here.


----------



## oftheherd1

Double post.


----------



## oftheherd1

Double Post.


----------



## oftheherd1

dvcochran said:


> Adding to my post. L.A. California, just sucks. Period.
> The attack I mentioned earlier happened when I was near my prime in athletic ability. For a long time I took a hit to my pride also, thinking I should have easily been able to avoid it or deal with it without harm.* I would have strongly advocated striking first back then.* Like I said earlier, there was a lot of fault on my own by not by not being aware of my surroundings.
> Fast forward three years. I am back in L.A. for the same company going to the same place. I had taken a cab down Sunset to go to the Whiskey GoGo club (look it up, great history). I got out of the cab and walked about 10 feet when a guy I was aware of quickly turned toward me and presented a knife. He started to talk (I made sure we had eye contact) but before he could really say anything, I stepped to the side. outside parry blocked the arm with the knife and took control of it. Then palm heeled the elbow. Crack. The knife went flying and he went down as I controlled the arm. I stomped his head twice and felt the arm go limp. I then took one step back still controlling the arm to check for movement. None. Just to be sure I did three had stomps to the ribs. No movement. I stepped back to check the environment. The street was busy but people just kept walking like he was just a piece of debris on the sidewalk. I went into the GOGo and enjoyed the evening never hearing anything about what had happened outside.
> I think the three rib stomps may have been for the first attack. Who knows. My point is I learned my lesson from the first attack and it paid off the next time.
> Age and experience has taught me there are times you will not see a life event coming, death, accidents, even attacks. Without exception, *strike first/strike fast is an incontrovertible rule to live by*. However, when I start the "what if game" my age and experience knows the repercussions of the rule. So I am not arguing the rule, just want people to understand in this screwed up day and age it likely will not be a black & white situation.



Oh Wow!  I just knew it.






That was you wasn't it?


----------



## oftheherd1

kempodisciple said:


> We got a 'set' meal, to save us from having to figure it out. Cost $60 for two for just the food, came with chicken tempura, sushi, sashimi, edamame beans, fruit and steak. I was a fan, all the food was delicious. Definitely someplace to go if you enjoy that kind of thing (and are okay with people jumping out at you)
> 
> But about japanese places in general, I have the same issue as you...I never know if ordering something is just one roll, or if it's enough for an actual meal. A lot of places have a combo thing though, so if you find one of those with sushi you like it handles that worry.



Just ask.  

Give the waiter/waitress a chance to work for a larger tip.


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> I don’t think anyone eats jellyfish.  Just my way of saying I’ll eat anything from the ocean that’s actually edible.



You know, as I learned it many many years ago on Okinawa, sushi was usually a wrap of some kind with some type of protein (fish, pork, or beef) in it, but it was distinct because the of the way the rice was prepared, it was sort of pickled.  Sashimi, now that was raw seafood.and even it could be done several ways.  The first time I tried raw octopus I thought I would have to spit it out and embarrass myself.  It seemed the more I chewed, the larger the lump in my mouth got.

Since then I have eaten snake, raw fish, baby chickens allowed to incubate in the shell about two weeks before being cooked and eaten, cooked ox blood, dog, more octopus, squid, several kinds of raw fish, including fresh caught from the Yellow Sea near an island close to the Han River outlet (think about it).  I love eel, and oyster on the half shell as well as cold noodle soup and kimchi.  

And I think even jellyfish.  It was cut into thin strips and served with some chopped vegetables and a sauce as I recall.

Oh, I also eat western style food, but not all.

My wife is Korean and we eat mostly korean-style food, and some of the things I have eaten I don't think she would eat.  But I would try just about anything at least one time.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Worst consistency I have ever eaten is squid. Just wrong.


I love squid/calamari.  Octopus too.  And scallops.  They’ve all got more or less that same texture.  I can see why people wouldn’t like the texture, but it doesn’t bother me at all.


----------



## JR 137

oftheherd1 said:


> You know, as I learned it many many years ago on Okinawa, sushi was usually a wrap of some kind with some type of protein (fish, pork, or beef) in it, but it was distinct because the of the way the rice was prepared, it was sort of pickled.  Sashimi, now that was raw seafood.and even it could be done several ways.  The first time I tried raw octopus I thought I would have to spit it out and embarrass myself.  It seemed the more I chewed, the larger the lump in my mouth got.
> 
> Since then I have eaten snake, raw fish, baby chickens allowed to incubate in the shell about two weeks before being cooked and eaten, cooked ox blood, dog, more octopus, squid, several kinds of raw fish, including fresh caught from the Yellow Sea near an island close to the Han River outlet (think about it).  I love eel, and oyster on the half shell as well as cold noodle soup and kimchi.
> 
> And I think even jellyfish.  It was cut into thin strips and served with some chopped vegetables and a sauce as I recall.
> 
> Oh, I also eat western style food, but not all.
> 
> My wife is Korean and we eat mostly korean-style food, and some of the things I have eaten I don't think she would eat.  But I would try just about anything at least one time.


You reminded me of a funny story from one of my soccer players a while back...

He was playing in the world university games hosted by South Korea.  He said every day he’d pass by street food vendors, and what they were cooking smelled really good, so he asked them what it was.  It was dog.  He got disgusted by it.  As the week went on, he thought it smelled so good, so he broke down and asked on of the vendors to try a really small piece.  He said it was the best thing he’s ever eaten.  Then he swallowed it and it hit him that he just ate dog, and he threw up.  The vendor laughed hysterically, and the guy told him it was delicious, but all he could think about was eating his childhood pet.

I’ve eaten some pretty non-mainstream meat and would try pretty much anything.  I’d have to draw the line at dogs though.  Cats too.


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> You reminded me of a funny story from one of my soccer players a while back...
> 
> He was playing in the world university games hosted by South Korea.  He said every day he’d pass by street food vendors, and what they were cooking smelled really good, so he asked them what it was.  It was dog.  He got disgusted by it.  As the week went on, he thought it smelled so good, so he broke down and asked on of the vendors to try a really small piece.  He said it was the best thing he’s ever eaten.  Then he swallowed it and it hit him that he just ate dog, and he threw up.  The vendor laughed hysterically, and the guy told him it was delicious, but all he could think about was eating his childhood pet.
> 
> I’ve eaten some pretty non-mainstream meat and would try pretty much anything.  I’d have to draw the line at dogs though.  Cats too.



I'll bet vendors would have gotten a kick out of that.  Street food vendor implies to me a vendor selling from a cart, but if he wasn't used to small cooking places selling food on sort of back streets, he may not have been able to find another word to describe those he passed by.

I heard from people who survived the depression that most people wouldn't eat cat.  They weren't thinking of Fluffy, it was just that it was practically inedible.  But I wouldn't know, nor frankly, could I vouch for the person who told me that.  He once gave me some rock candy.  Nearly cracked a tooth.      I don't remember ever accepting anything from him after that. 

As to dog, the first time I had it was in Vietnam, A girlfriend of mine and a buddy of mine's girlfriend, thought it would be funny to cook it for us without us knowing.  Well he had eaten dog in Korea so he knew what he was eating.  I could understand the ladies talking about the fun to expect afterwards, even though they were using words they thought I would not understand.  I used words to him they in fact didn't understand, and to get him to agree after we had finished eating, we would suddenly start barking and growling at each other.  They were momentarily surprised, but immediately realized we got them instead of the other way around.  We all had a good laugh.  I ate it several times in Vietnam after that when it was presented to me, but I never went out of my way to order it.  Not even in Korea where it is also plentiful.


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> I love squid/calamari.  Octopus too.  And scallops.  They’ve all got more or less that same texture.  I can see why people wouldn’t like the texture, but it doesn’t bother me at all.



I agree, but it can be cooked too long and they then get a little tough, even scallops, and don't taste as good.


----------



## JR 137

oftheherd1 said:


> I agree, but it can be cooked too long and they then get a little tough, even scallops, and don't taste as good.


Can’t we say that about everything though?


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> Can’t we say that about everything though?



True, but most seafood cooks a little quicker I think.  What has been your experience?


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I love squid/calamari.  Octopus too.  And scallops.  They’ve all got more or less that same texture.  I can see why people wouldn’t like the texture, but it doesn’t bother me at all.


I love scallops. I have never thought they are a "rough" in texture as squid.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I love scallops. I have never thought they are a "rough" in texture as squid.


True.  But scallops that odd mushy kinda texture going on.  Squid can have it if it’s undercooked.  Been there, and it wasn’t good.


----------



## JR 137

oftheherd1 said:


> True, but most seafood cooks a little quicker I think.  What has been your experience?


I don’t cook it often because it’s really easy to mess up.  There’s a very short window.  Too long and it’s too rubbery.  Not long enough and it’s mushy.  And that window’s only a minute or two.

I stick to shellfish and fish if I’m cooking seafood.

But yeah, it cooks pretty quick.  Can’t talk away from it.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I don’t cook it often because it’s really easy to mess up.  There’s a very short window.  Too long and it’s too rubbery.  Not long enough and it’s mushy.  And that window’s only a minute or two.
> 
> I stick to shellfish and fish if I’m cooking seafood.


Have you ever cooked them over open fire? They seem easier to cook that way to me.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> Have you ever cooked them over open fire? They seem easier to cook that way to me.


I grilled them a few times.  On a sheet of aluminum foil on the grill, and in an aluminum pan kind of thing on the grill.  Actually, it was a new grill drip pan that goes under the grill.  I put a little butter, lemon, garlic, and some seasoning in it, put the scallops in, then threw it on the grill.  Came out great.

Broiled them a few times with mixed results.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I grilled them a few times.  On a sheet of aluminum foil on the grill, and in an aluminum pan kind of thing on the grill.  Actually, it was a new grill drip pan that goes under the grill.  I put a little butter, lemon, garlic, and some seasoning in it, put the scallops in, then threw it on the grill.  Came out great.
> 
> Broiled them a few times with mixed results.


I like seasoning them and then marinating them on top of the grill, no pan. Making me hungry.


----------



## Steve

I don’t know about the others, but you can cook squid for a long time and it’s very tender.   It goes from tender to chewy and then back to tender.


----------



## JR 137

Steve said:


> I don’t know about the others, but you can cook squid for a long time and it’s very tender.   It goes from tender to chewy and then back to tender.


Interesting.  I’ve never cooked squid before.  I cooked octopus twice.  Messed it up both times.

Edit: actual octopus, not baby octopus.


----------



## JR 137

dvcochran said:


> I like seasoning them and then marinating them on top of the grill, no pan. Making me hungry.


I’m getting hungry too.  I never put them directly on the grill because I’ve always worried about it sticking and falling apart trying to take it off.


----------



## JR 137

All this talk about cooking seafood is getting to me. I can’t cook it often because my wife is allergic to iodine, which shellfish and the like all have.  Sucks, but it is what it is.


----------



## dvcochran

JR 137 said:


> I’m getting hungry too.  I never put them directly on the grill because I’ve always worried about it sticking and falling apart trying to take it off.


Pam, lots of Pam.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> I don’t know about the others, but you can cook squid for a long time and it’s very tender.   It goes from tender to chewy and then back to tender.


Even the suction cups? That is the part I hate.


----------



## oftheherd1

JR 137 said:


> I don’t cook it often because it’s really easy to mess up.  There’s a very short window.  Too long and it’s too rubbery.  Not long enough and it’s mushy.  And that window’s only a minute or two.
> 
> I stick to shellfish and fish if I’m cooking seafood.
> 
> But yeah, it cooks pretty quick.  Can’t talk away from it.



Yeah, I'm kind of like that too.  I haven't cooked anything in a long time.  My wife thinks that is her job and I should stay out of it.  Luckily she is a very good cook so I don't argue that.  So either she cooks or we eat out.  But even she acknowledges squid and like items require close care when cooking.  And we seldom eat things like that uncooked.  The one thing we may eat raw is oyster on the half-shell.  But we check it and even then usually only from places we trust.


----------



## Buka

If you haven't spent time in cities, you've probably not seen many dark alleys. You're less likely to have ever walked down any. It's a good idea to keep it that way. Not much good ever happens down a dark alley. 

But sometimes cops have to. It's the stuff nightmares are made of.


----------



## JR 137

Buka said:


> If you haven't spent time in cities, you've probably not seen many dark alleys. You're less likely to have ever walked down any. It's a good idea to keep it that way. Not much good ever happens down a dark alley.
> 
> But sometimes cops have to. It's the stuff nightmares are made of.
> 
> View attachment 21781


And that happened in broad daylight. What’s this world coming to?


----------



## Deleted member 39746

Tornado kick, always the tornado kick.


----------



## _Simon_

Rat said:


> Tornado kick, always the tornado kick.


Hahaha booyeah


----------

