# JKD Chi Sao Vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao



## wingchun100

I imagine this might be something I have to be experience in person and cannot be expressed in words, but I figured I would ask anyway.

Aside from the "strong side forward" stance (as opposed to the basic Wing Chun front facing stance), are there any ways in which JKD Chi Sao differs from Wing Chun Chi Sao?


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

Well...  Unless we have someone who is both an expert in JKD and also Wing Chun we might not have a clear answer on this.     I do know what you might be talking about though.   There are differences in doing chi sao with people.      I don't think it's a JKD or a Wing Chun that defines it different.     
Yes.   Some people in JKD do Chi Sao out a modified Bai Jong where they are squared up with their shoulders but their feet are in a JKD stance.     

I think where the biggest difference is the energy that they put into Chi Sao.  I have rolled with different people.   Wing chun people, JKD people.   They all have a different intent and different energy.    
Take Energy for example.   Some people put a lot of muscle into it.  Some people are really relaxed.      Some people play in chi sao and never break out of it into a boxing type of flow.     Lot of people do it differently.

And what is the intent why they are doing Chi Sao.   Some schools make it into a "Slapping game"     Who was able to get through.   
How many people are being good listeners with their arms.   And for that matter with their legs if they incorporate chi sao with legs.   
What is their intent...?  Are they just about crashing lines that they predetermine.   Are the really listening... is there a give and take in the exchange of energy.

I always like to chi sao with different people.   There are many different energies.   Emin Boztepe, Francis Fong, Dan Inosanto all had different energies.   One of the most gifted people I rolled with is from out west.   When you closed your eyes he constantly felt like he was right in front of you... but he was constantly shifting and moving at angles yet his hands and arms told you totally something different.

So Steve....  I wouldn't say there is a difference because of JKD or Wing Chun.   I would say it's related to the individual and also how they were taught to do chi sao.   And possibly if they forgot what they were taught they got caught up with winning or hand chasing etc...


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## wingchun100

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Well...  Unless we have someone who is both an expert in JKD and also Wing Chun we might not have a clear answer on this.     I do know what you might be talking about though.   There are differences in doing chi sao with people.      I don't think it's a JKD or a Wing Chun that defines it different.
> Yes.   Some people in JKD do Chi Sao out a modified Bai Jong where they are squared up with their shoulders but their feet are in a JKD stance.
> 
> I think where the biggest difference is the energy that they put into Chi Sao.  I have rolled with different people.   Wing chun people, JKD people.   They all have a different intent and different energy.
> Take Energy for example.   Some people put a lot of muscle into it.  Some people are really relaxed.      Some people play in chi sao and never break out of it into a boxing type of flow.     Lot of people do it differently.
> 
> And what is the intent why they are doing Chi Sao.   Some schools make it into a "Slapping game"     Who was able to get through.
> How many people are being good listeners with their arms.   And for that matter with their legs if they incorporate chi sao with legs.
> What is their intent...?  Are they just about crashing lines that they predetermine.   Are the really listening... is there a give and take in the exchange of energy.
> 
> I always like to chi sao with different people.   There are many different energies.   Emin Boztepe, Francis Fong, Dan Inosanto all had different energies.   One of the most gifted people I rolled with is from out west.   When you closed your eyes he constantly felt like he was right in front of you... but he was constantly shifting and moving at angles yet his hands and arms told you totally something different.
> 
> So Steve....  I wouldn't say there is a difference because of JKD or Wing Chun.   I would say it's related to the individual and also how they were taught to do chi sao.   And possibly if they forgot what they were taught they got caught up with winning or hand chasing etc...


 

Thanks. I have not done much Chi Sao with JKD people. One habit I noticed with the person who did Chi Sao with me was that he would often break contact instead of sticking. Every time he broke contact, I was able to fill the void with a fist or two.

In the past I was in the habit of hand chasing myself, because I was so worried about getting hit that I would focus on blocking their hands instead of controlling their core. These days I like to think that I am getting much better about that. In fact, a few weeks ago I had a couple big revelations when it comes to Chi Sao that I have been dying to put into practice, but I haven't had the chance yet.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

Some people just don't stick all the time.     Some people who do jkd with go out of chi say into Hubud or various other drills where sticking it not key.  It's more about finding openings in space.    

Wing chin hits when there is a void.   Well we all try.     I have chased hands.    Esp. If I did chi say against someone that I thought really want to hit me and I was feeling like they wanted to hit me hard.    Mentally you get "trapped".  Hahaha.    Funny.   You get trapped chasing hands.  

Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with.    Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.


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## wingchun100

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Some people just don't stick all the time.     Some people who do jkd with go out of chi say into Hubud or various other drills where sticking it not key.  It's more about finding openings in space.
> 
> Wing chin hits when there is a void.   Well we all try.     I have chased hands.    Esp. If I did chi say against someone that I thought really want to hit me and I was feeling like they wanted to hit me hard.    Mentally you get "trapped".  Hahaha.    Funny.   You get trapped chasing hands.
> 
> Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with.    Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.


 
I get what you are saying. I have had people do that to me too, but if I control their centerline, then they can't hit anyway. They are too busy trying to regain control. I'm not saying I am a master at it, as people who are better than me WILL hit me, but I do pretty good.

I am not familiar with that thing you said there about going out of chi sao into hubud. I can't wait to see that in action!


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

You can see people go from chi sao to hubud to tai chi push hands and various flow/energy drills.   They try not to stay confined to chi sao.
Look on Youtube.... I am sure you will find it...
Here is one with various flows... not hubud... but you might get what I am saying about coming out of chi sao to don chi sao.




Also at 1:22 they break from Chi/trapping into Hubud....  sloppy... but a quick example..


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## wingchun100

Ugh...I didn't see this until now, and YouTube doesn't work from the computer I am using.

Guess I will have to see it in class.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

No worries.   Well you will not really see it from me.   I don't do the switching out from Chi Sao into various drills.   If I train Chi Sao it's for the purpose of Chi Sao.    Some JKD schools do switch in and out of various drills.  Anyway.....   I mentioned this... cause the original question was JKD Chi Sao vs. Wing Chun Chi Sao.   
Come to think of it... I have seen people in Wing chun who go into a pak da type of roll out of chi sao.


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## wingchun100

That's cool. Hey, I just want to train, but in the absence of being in class (which will happen soon because I am wrapping up the last week at my part-time job), I come here to ask questions. And I have a lot. I am always questioning...but in a good way, not in a "I'm going to challenge you just to be a jerk" way.


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## Kung Fu Wang

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> Some people just don't stick all the time. ...
> Chi sao is great when you have good energy to work with.    Otherwise it can be just annoying to deal with someone who is just trying to be a jerk.


Unfortunately, that jerk may be someone who just gives you a realistic test. In fighting, you won't find that "good energy" to work with.

When you train sticky hand, you should

- guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then enter.

So the question is, should you train unrealistic situation that you can touch your opponent's arm all the time, or should you train realistic situation that you try to touch your opponent's arm but your opponent is not cooperated with you?

In fighting, you want to

- build a bridge,
- sense your opponent's intention,
- destroy that bridge (so your opponent cannot sense you),
- borrow your opponent's force and add your own force,
- tuck your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
- you then move in.

You may only need 1/4 second from the arms contact to obtain information that you will need. IMO, that will be more realistic "sticky hands" training.


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Unfortunately, that jerk may be someone who just gives you a realistic test. In fighting, you won't find that "good energy" to work with.
> 
> When you train sticky hand, you should
> 
> - guide your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
> - you then enter.
> 
> So the question is, should you train unrealistic situation that you can touch your opponent's arm all the time, or should you train realistic situation that you try to touch your opponent's arm but your opponent is not cooperated with you?
> 
> In fighting, you want to
> 
> - build a bridge,
> - sense your opponent's intention,
> - destroy that bridge (so your opponent cannot sense you),
> - borrow your opponent's force and add your own force,
> - tuck your opponent's arm away from your entering path,
> - you then move in.
> 
> You may only need 1/4 second from the arms contact to obtain information that you will need. IMO, that will be more realistic "sticky hands" training.


Understand your point.    You have to pressure test things.    And there will be people who don't let you build a bridge.  

My point was when you are learning.   Training.    In order to learn the correct response to a particular energy you need to work with someone that is willing to work with you.   Helping you to learn that certain energy dedicates certain responses.    If you are training with a jerk.   Well you will never learn.    But once you learn.   Go test yourself against the jerk. Test your hands against various styles of fighting.   See where you have advantages.   See where there are disadvantages.   Find your mistakes. Now go back to the person who will help you train to fill those gaps.   Fix em.   Now retest it.


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## wingchun100

I'm hoping that I will be able to do this soon enough.


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## Vajramusti

wingchun100 said:


> I imagine this might be something I have to be experience in person and cannot be expressed in words, but I figured I would ask anyway.
> 
> Aside from the "strong side forward" stance (as opposed to the basic Wing Chun front facing stance), are there any ways in which JKD Chi Sao differs from Wing Chun Chi Sao?


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Big Difference


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## Kung Fu Wang

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> And there will be people who don't let you build a bridge.


The first 30 seconds of this clip is pretty much like that.


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## Thunder Foot

Late to this, but I do both and I would say there is no such thing as "JKD Chi Sau".... there is only Chi Sau. Wing Chun isn't the only style that has chi sau, so why would there be a specific for JKD. One can chi sau in many different ways, and it's all simply Chi Sau.


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## wingchun100

Thunder Foot said:


> Late to this, but I do both and I would say there is no such thing as "JKD Chi Sau".... there is only Chi Sau. Wing Chun isn't the only style that has chi sau, so why would there be a specific for JKD. One can chi sau in many different ways, and it's all simply Chi Sau.


 
Having gone to a couple JKD classes since this post, I can say there is a difference in the way it is approached.


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## Thunder Foot

wingchun100 said:


> Having gone to a couple JKD classes since this post, I can say there is a difference in the way it is approached.


And it will most likely be different with every person you train with. Just like different WC/VT lineages chi sau differently. That doesn't quantify a JKD approach, as there is no such thing.


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## wingchun100

Thunder Foot said:


> And it will most likely be different with every person you train with. Just like different WC/VT lineages chi sau differently. That doesn't quantify a JKD approach, as there is no such thing.


 
Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).


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## Thunder Foot

wingchun100 said:


> Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).


I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?


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## Juany118

Thunder Foot said:


> I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?



At least in the WC I study, chi sau with legs is called chi gerk.  Chi sau is taught, typically, before chi gerk.


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## Mou Meng Gung Fu

I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.


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## wingchun100

Thunder Foot said:


> I see. So are you saying in your WC chi sau you never use your legs? Or that you've only done chi sau in YJKYM and not in any of the other stances in WC/VT?


 
No, it starts in YGKYM. We move around from there, but in JKD you are in the strong side forward stance to begin with.


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## Thunder Foot

wingchun100 said:


> No, it starts in YGKYM. We move around from there, but in JKD you are in the strong side forward stance to begin with.


Ok, I didn't realize the emphasis of the starting position. So are you saying that by starting chi sau in any position other that YJKYM, one is no longer practicing WC?


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## NYFIGHTSOURCE

I learned t do Chi Sao initially in a JKD school.   We practiced it in the YGKYM stance.   From what I have seen and crossing hands with various people in Wing Chun and lineages... there really is no difference.  We also trained in Chi Gerk.  Also practiced being rooted and times when you might not want to be so rooted.    We also practiced Chi Sao in the Bai Jong stance.   50/'50 weight with front leg bent and rear leg bent.   Rear heal raised.  (Typical JKD stance).   The only variation to the stance was that the shoulders was squared up vs. being angled.     And in this stance there is more movement with footwork.    Slight angles, progression forward and back etc.    It helps in training the ability to stay within a distance that you can stick to your opponent.      I have seen some schools push really aggressively into one another.  
Basically... I think Chi Sao is Chi Sao.  I don't think there is a difference between Wing Chun or JKD if it's being done properly and with the intent it was meant for.


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## wingchun100

NYFIGHTSOURCE said:


> I learned t do Chi Sao initially in a JKD school.   We practiced it in the YGKYM stance.   From what I have seen and crossing hands with various people in Wing Chun and lineages... there really is no difference.  We also trained in Chi Gerk.  Also practiced being rooted and times when you might not want to be so rooted.    We also practiced Chi Sao in the Bai Jong stance.   50/'50 weight with front leg bent and rear leg bent.   Rear heal raised.  (Typical JKD stance).   The only variation to the stance was that the shoulders was squared up vs. being angled.     And in this stance there is more movement with footwork.    Slight angles, progression forward and back etc.    It helps in training the ability to stay within a distance that you can stick to your opponent.      I have seen some schools push really aggressively into one another.
> Basically... I think Chi Sao is Chi Sao.  I don't think there is a difference between Wing Chun or JKD if it's being done properly and with the intent it was meant for.


 
I guess the easiest way for me to discover would be to make it to class.


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## FighterTwister

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.



Honestly, NO difference at all!

*Chi Sao - is - Chi Sao* ........ its the base frame of JKD rooted in Wing Chun and devolved from the Southern Shaolin Temple Monks training on the 108 wooden dummies final test chamber, and its labeled as an exercise drill for trapping hands or aka "Sticky Hands"!

If I may illustrate using these videos..............


























The differences you might see are only due the to difference in the partner's body frame

E.g.

Height, Length of arms or if they have a tendency to raise the arms covering the face or be at a more confident arm level at shoulder height, the drill is the same!

So nothing exceeding the original form of the actual drill concept!

Side note:- By the way they should remake that movie and produce a modern version - ( Shaolin Wooden Men (1976) )


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## FighterTwister

Mou Meng Gung Fu said:


> I practice both Chi Sao (sticking hands) and Chi Gerk (sticking legs). In the beginning, I learned Chi Sao from the basic WCK goat stance, or high horse training stance (YCKYM), without using any footwork. Later on, I learned a JKD variation of Chi Sao performed the exact same way, except from a JKD ready stance, or phasic bent knee stance (BJ), in which there was more movement. However, as I started to progress in martial arts, I learned more WCK stances and footwork. Over time, there were fewer and fewer differences between them. I would say the only difference I see now is that JKD places more weight on the front leg, while WCK places more weight on the back leg. But even then there are times when both JKD and WCK will use a 50/50 neutral stance, so I guess it really just depends on who you're training with. In the style that I practice now, both stances are included and we are allowed to use whatever stance we want, because Chi Sao and Chi Gerk are still practiced the same way regardless of style.



Yeah Chi Gerk allot of people don't talk about that its always Hubud or Chi-Sao.........











Good post thanks!


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## Bino TWT

wingchun100 said:


> Actually there is because, as I said in the original post, JKD does chi sao with the strong side forward, while WC does it in the basic horse stance (the one seen in Sil Lum Tao).



Yes and no. In JKD Bai Jong, it is pretty standard to be strong side forward. In Wing Tsun Bai Jong, depending on lineage (and individual practitioner), sometimes they are squared up and sometimes they are strong side forward as well. But this is only a guard position. Chi Sao is STICKING from contact; you are not sticking if you are in a shifted stance and can't reach your opponent with the back hand. 

Chi Sao is an organic flowing thing, and one should not remain in a stationary position. There should be no fixed position. The Poon Sao position (the most common one seen that is used by the Yip Man branch) is only a starting position, and even that isn't set in stone. Often times, Chi Sao is initiated from no contact, so one can also train bridging and intercepting. 

Honestly the difference I generally see between Wing Tsun and JKD Chi Sao is that a lot of JKD practitioners do not have the Wing Tsun foundation and lack the depth of skills and reflexes that comes from years of Chi Sao training, so they're just kinda winging it. Some JKD schools have absolutely no Wing Tsun in them whatsoever, and are basically just a stitched up MMA that's being called JKD, and their Chi Sao is sub-par for even beginner levels.  

*Side note: The SNT stance is a training tool for beginners. You don't stand in YJKYM and fight. The farther you get in the system, the less you are restricted by the rules of the basics. If you see 2 high level practitioners, one WT and one JKD, sparring or Chi Sao'ing, it can be very difficult to tell them apart at times.   

In higher level Chi Sao, legs (Chi Gerk) and even grappling comes into play. It's all fair game. It's good to be clear with your partner about what you wish to train and establish some rules before you engage though, so they don't get mad when you kick them or take them down. 

I teach both Wing Tsun & JKD, and also do Escrima and Tai Chi. There are many overlaps in the drills/training (Chi Sao, Hubud, Tui Shou, etc), and they can all be used with or against each other. 

BTW, nice to see you here Steve. I recognized the name in your website link. We chat on FB. I just posted a Chi Sao video in the Wing Chun section here the other day, check it out.


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