# Moderation Level



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 26, 2012)

Recently we're gotten a large number of complaints concerning a couple of members. No, I'm not naming names here.

The complaints fall into the following categories.

1- I don't like what he said. Censor him.
2- I don't like how he said what he said. Censor him.
3- I don't like him. Ban him.
4- A few actually did deal with rules issues and were addressed.

Neither I nor my staff will be used to censor or shut down a differing opinion. That's never been our purpose here.

If someone is stating something you don't like, you have these options:

1- Put the person on ignore.
If they piss you off that much, use the sites built in feature to hide their comments from your view.  Have the personal strength to not 'peek'.

2- Tune them out.
If you are unwilling to use the 'ignore' feature, or can't figure out how to use it (see FAQ forum for help or post in the support forum and we'll be happy to walk you through it.) put on some blinders and tune them out.

3- Keep reporting non-rules violations and risk a warning or infraction for abuse of the RTM system.

4- Respond to them, but don't rise to the bait. Don't add more fuel on the fire.  Someone lashes out, be polite in return.  They'll look like an even bigger ***, which makes it easier to moderate.  When everyone's swinging, everyone loses.

The alternative is we put the TKD and other KMA areas under strict moderation.  This means that -all- member posts will be placed in a queue and reviewed by a moderator prior to becoming publicly visible.  This may delay posts by a few days as we're pretty busy as is and that's a lot more work.  We will run all posts through a -strict- check against the sites TOS and reject -all- that even hint at violating them.  It will make these sections nice and quiet. Quiet as in dead. Since after a day or 2 of such active moderation, traffic will grind to a halt and post counts will drop to almost nothing.

Your call folks.  Grow a little thicker skin and in a few cases grow up already, or kill off the whole TKD area.

This isn't a kindergarten. It's my belief that our members do not wish  to be treated like children and micro-managed. This means act like  adults, and work some things out among yourselves -before- mods have to  get involved.  It also means that people are going to hold different  views and beliefs, which some will hold to no matter what you say or do.  Such is life.  See #1 & #2 & #4.

Our goal is an active, thriving, diverse TKD forum. Heavy modding would defeat that I think.


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## Touch Of Death (Jan 26, 2012)

My spider sense told me this thread was coming.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 26, 2012)

I personally have thoroughly enjoyed my experience in the KMA threads since joining here.  While there may be some heated debates, I think that for the most part it has been enlightening.  I hope it doesn't come down to micro-management and strict moderation.  I like that we can converse in near real time on here.. .


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## Cyriacus (Jan 26, 2012)

You know, I dont see the point to most of the disagreements in the first place. Its obvious that if two people are set in their opinions, theyre not going to change them because someone they dont even know shows them otherwise. And even then, why does one have to prove themself right? I say, if I may be blunt, let them argue, and shut them up if it goes on for longer than 10-15 posts. Unless its amounting to something.


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## Gemini (Jan 26, 2012)

Reminds me of when I got here, though I thought we had cleaned it up pretty good at one time. People just don't understand what a turn off it is to the larger community. A lack of junior students or knowledge seekers usually indicates a problem, like they don't feel welcome. Shame.


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## dancingalone (Jan 26, 2012)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I personally have thoroughly enjoyed my experience in the KMA threads since joining here.  While there may be some heated debates, I think that for the most part it has been enlightening.  I hope it doesn't come down to micro-management and strict moderation.  I like that we can converse in near real time on here.. .


I agree strongly.  There is a lot of interesting information at times in those heated threads.  It's just a matter of cooling your emotions and ignoring the irrelevant bits.Not to mention we all build track records after a period of participation.  Surely we all know which posters don't suit our tastes and we can master ourselves accordingly, even if only to skip past their posts?


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 26, 2012)

For the most part, this section provided a pretty substantial value in the information exchanged.  Part of the problem exists when a person is unable to separate an issue from the person.  This gets compounded when they begin trolling i.e. starting multiple threads about the person they have an issue with, going at them in multiple other threads etc.  It gets compounded further when friends of this individual feel compelled to jump in with less-than-pleasant remarks in threads they really aren't contributing to much, or at all.

The ignore feature, with no offense intended, is not a solution.  A person's reputation is a valuable thing to them, and to their students.  When one or more individuals start trolling, as listed above, with cheeky remarks designed to malign a person...well the old saying is 'tell a lie loud enough and often enough and people will start to believe it.  It also makes you look like your dodging questions, which can raise a red flag even if it is unintentional.

I'm going to suggest adding a feature to Martial Talk that I have used successfully on Martial Warrior for years.  We called it the 'Octagon ' but you could use any term you wish.  The Octagon was simply a small section of the board that I created for disputes.  The normal rules of the board remained such as you can't cuss the guy out or lie etc.  A thread was created specifically for the two people having a dispute, and only they could post in it (and mods if necessary of course).  This way the two individuals could discuss the matter directly with each other without one or the others buddies coming in and taking jabs.  The biggest benefit was that the dispute remained ONLY in that one thread, which meant that it could not spill out to the rest of the board in multiple threads.  If it did, then it was instant grounds for suspension.  This encouraged members to remain civil and pleasant with each other on the board, while providing a direct outlet for them to hash it out.  I required all factual information to be just that, factual.  Which meant the person had to supply sources for the statements they made if necessary.  If it was an opinion, it was just that, an opinion.  If the second party refused to engage the other in the Octagon over the dispute, but instead continued to harass i.e. be a troll on the open board then guess what....suspension.  

It worked.  And it made the moderation job a heck-of-a-lot easier.  Once the thread between the two reached a conclusion the matter was closed.  If it resurfaced on the open board i.e. snide remarks, unpleasant remarks, buddies jumping in etc...suspension.  It was just that easy.


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## StudentCarl (Jan 26, 2012)

I see a variation on KongSooDo's tagline:

We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our insecurities.

There is value in discussing content, but ego battles just shows the insecurity of the poster. We need to hold ourselves to a higher standard than that. Don't cross the line from sharing information/ideas into a contest of who's right. You can't keep others from their ignorance, but you don't need to join them at their level either.


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## terryl965 (Jan 26, 2012)

Oh my god kids in a play ground? What is next he looked at me. Seriously can't we all agree to dis-agree?


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## dortiz (Jan 26, 2012)

Many other forums that were bullied by key folks regardless of their wealth of knowledge have dried up and dissapeared. Why? because after a while you can be right all the time but only you are left listening.


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## Tez3 (Jan 26, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> For the most part, this section provided a pretty substantial value in the information exchanged. Part of the problem exists when a person is unable to separate an issue from the person. This gets compounded when they begin trolling i.e. starting multiple threads about the person they have an issue with, going at them in multiple other threads etc. It gets compounded further when friends of this individual feel compelled to jump in with less-than-pleasant remarks in threads they really aren't contributing to much, or at all.
> 
> The ignore feature, with no offense intended, is not a solution. A person's reputation is a valuable thing to them, and to their students. When one or more individuals start trolling, as listed above, with cheeky remarks designed to malign a person...well the old saying is 'tell a lie loud enough and often enough and people will start to believe it. It also makes you look like your dodging questions, which can raise a red flag even if it is unintentional.
> 
> ...



If you've called it the Octagon you will have the UFC lawyers sueing you! it's trademarked lol!


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> If you've called it the Octagon you will have the UFC lawyers sueing you! it's trademarked lol!



How about the mud pit?  That might fit better :uhyeah:


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 26, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> I see a variation on KongSooDo's tagline:
> 
> We don't rise to the occasion...we sink to the level of our insecurities.



Never wrestle with a pig because you only get dirty...and the pig likes it :uhyeah:


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## sopraisso (Jan 26, 2012)

I confess I'm surprised with this. I've been reading this section of the forum almost daily, and although I've seen heated discussions, I didn't imagine someone would've felt personally offended (at least not in a way that couldn't be ignored).
After the time I started reading the forum I really learned a lot, and even it's like I know a little about most posters. No need to say I feel particular simpathy for many of them, what doesn't mean I don't enjoy everyone else's contributions. Particularly in the heated discussions, I don't believe there was a single time I couldn't learn a lot with every side of the controversy. If the forum becomes strictly moderated, I know all would be lost since then, and I would have to go look after knowledge in forums where people don't know that much and where there's not 10% the respect and maturity I'm used to seeing here.


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## MJS (Jan 26, 2012)

sopraisso said:


> I confess I'm surprised with this. I've been reading this section of the forum almost daily, and although I've seen heated discussions, I didn't imagine someone would've felt personally offended (at least not in a way that couldn't be ignored).



If you only knew...lol.  To this day, I'm still shocked at the things people say.  I mean, really, its a message board.  Its so easy to walk away, ignore, etc, yet for some, its so hard.  I often wonder what these people do in real life, when they can't walk away or ignore.  Do they quit their jobs because of a coworker?  LOL.


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## aedrasteia (Jan 26, 2012)

dortiz said:


> Many other forums that were bullied by key folks regardless of their wealth of knowledge have dried up and dissapeared. Why? because after a while you can be right all the time but only you are left listening.



Hey Dortiz

"because after a while you can be right all the time but only you are left listening".

I am SO stealing this  - OK?  credit to you.


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## miguksaram (Jan 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> How about the mud pit?  That might fit better :uhyeah:


Jello pit...fits better and we can have $1.00 draft nights.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 27, 2012)

I must say I'm surprised and pleased with the replies. I expected at least 1 'sod off' (which usually happens in cases like this.)

My problem with a 'pit fight' area is, it seems like a childish solution IMO.  We've long suggested that people take their personal differences to the PM or email systems where any arguing is out of site. Sure you lose the 'train wreck voyer' traffic boost, but it just never struck me as polite or professional.  Case in point, if you're having a disagreement with a parent in your school you bring them into the office and shut the door, you don't argue with them in the middle of the training floor so that everyone can see. I can see the idea working for some sites, but not here. It's come up a few times to be honest and each time the cons outweigh the pros.

I honestly don't want to do heavy modding. Right now, we're running light on staff, everyones got lives outside the site including me, and we just have better things to do than nitpick and comb things that finely. Shouldn't have to as the majority of our members are adults capable of behaving accordingly. 

What we don't want is to have to deal with hundreds (we're in the dozens now) of reported posts that are really differences of opinion, at the same time we need members to flag the real trouble so we can get involved if we need to.  Optimally, we won't as members work things out themselves before they explode. Reading through the replies here has made me feel better about the KMA and TKD sections, something I thank everyone who replied for. These are some of MT's busiest areas and I want to see them continue to grow and prosper, but to do that I need everyones help. I think we're in good shape. :asian:


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I must say I'm surprised and pleased with the replies. I expected at least 1 'sod off' (which usually happens in cases like this.)
> 
> My problem with a 'pit fight' area is, it seems like a childish solution IMO. We've long suggested that people take their personal differences to the PM or email systems where any arguing is out of site. Sure you lose the 'train wreck voyer' traffic boost, but it just never struck me as polite or professional. Case in point, *if you're having a disagreement with a parent in your school you bring them into the office and shut the door*, you don't argue with them in the middle of the training floor so that everyone can see. I can see the idea working for some sites, but not here. It's come up a few times to be honest and each time the cons outweigh the pros.
> 
> ...



You do? Damn, I usually just bring them onto the mat so I can 'demo' a SD move to the kids and then choke them out or something. Seriously, it's the fathers you see, they think they know better than me, what with being only a woman and them big roughy toughy soldiers (that'll never work is what I get), so I have to show them who's right, it has to be done.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jan 31, 2012)

Let me toss this out for consideration and possible resolution.  What is the best option if one or two members (who are buddies) continually drop little sarcastic or negative remarks that are designed to put you in a bad light or derail the thread?  Probably not quite enough to RTM, or perhaps it is but I'm hesitant.  Almost like a drive-by.  Usually sarcastic or off-topic and definitely non-constructive.  The ignore feature isn't an option imo as it is often a personal zinger.  And I think a lot of people would feel compelled to defend themselves.  I don't want to overburden the mods, but at the same time this sort of thing just really needs to stop.  Too be honest, if these folks really had a legitimate dislike of/for me I'd rather them just be upfront and say exactly how they feel and why and then see if there is any validity to it.  If so, then it can be addressed.  If it isn't valid, then they really need to zip up the sarcasm.  

My intention isn't to act like them or go to their level.  But sometimes you just have had it up to your eyeballs with them and you engage them which ends up in warnings and thread closings.  I've tried the pm route, neither wishes to engage.  Not enough of an audience in a pm.  I've offered to give them free reign in an off-board venue, neither will accept.  They seem content to zip in for a drive-by and then zip out.  Or mix in some unnecessary sarcasm or negative comments with something legitimate.  I'm not talking about simple disagreement, I'm talking about simple uncivil behavior.  

So I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Appreciate it.


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Let me toss this out for consideration and possible resolution.  What is the best option if one or two members (who are buddies) continually drop little sarcastic or negative remarks that are designed to put you in a bad light or derail the thread?  Probably not quite enough to RTM, or perhaps it is but I'm hesitant.  Almost like a drive-by.  Usually sarcastic or off-topic and definitely non-constructive.  The ignore feature isn't an option imo as it is often a personal zinger.  And I think a lot of people would feel compelled to defend themselves.  I don't want to overburden the mods, but at the same time this sort of thing just really needs to stop.  Too be honest, if these folks really had a legitimate dislike of/for me I'd rather them just be upfront and say exactly how they feel and why and then see if there is any validity to it.  If so, then it can be addressed.  If it isn't valid, then they really need to zip up the sarcasm.
> 
> My intention isn't to act like them or go to their level.  But sometimes you just have had it up to your eyeballs with them and you engage them which ends up in warnings and thread closings.  I've tried the pm route, neither wishes to engage.  Not enough of an audience in a pm.  I've offered to give them free reign in an off-board venue, neither will accept.  They seem content to zip in for a drive-by and then zip out.  Or mix in some unnecessary sarcasm or negative comments with something legitimate.  I'm not talking about simple disagreement, I'm talking about simple uncivil behavior.
> 
> So I'd like to hear your thoughts.  Appreciate it.



You could hit the RTM.  The mods will review and either adress it or if the majority feel its not actionable, we usually send a PM to the reporting person, advising them of such.  

You could PM one of the mods, saying something like, "Hey can you check out this post.  Seems like rude, but I'm not really sure, so rather than hit the RTM...."

Just a side note.  The RTM feature has been abused in the past and at times, it still is.  Like Bob said, its primary function is for rule violations.  Could you hit it in the scenario you gave above?  Sure, but of course, IMO, it'd be good to be pretty close to certain that it is a violation.  Thread derailment....valid reason to RTM.  Constantly being on the fence tossing little jabs.  Yeah, thats something thats valid, as it happens all the time.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 22, 2012)

As per the number of requests we're seeing these last few days, we're considering putting the KMA section under full moderation. 
Meaning, you make a post, the -only- person who will see it until a mod gets around to reading it and oking it is you.

I always try to give our members what they want, and well, that seems to be what is wanted. 
I don't understand this request, it'll really slow things down, but that seems to be the desire.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 22, 2012)

who would possibly think this is a good idea?


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 22, 2012)

People who didn't get the message the last few times.


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## Carol (Feb 23, 2012)

Hmmm.............I'm not seeing a lot of Supporting Members out there in KMA land.

You cause migraines for the volunteer mod staff here, the least you can do is kick in and help keep the lights on. 

C'mon, kick in!   Who's gonna put money where their mouth is?   ** throws down gauntlet **

[FAQ] What is a Supporting Member? How do I become one?


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 23, 2012)

Carol said:


> Hmmm.............I'm not seeing a lot of Supporting Members out there in KMA land.
> 
> You cause migraines for the volunteer mod staff here, the least you can do is kick in and help keep the lights on.
> 
> ...



I fully agree that full moderation would suck. I also agree that being a supporting member is a good thing. I don't recall exactly, but I think my supporting membership came pretty soon after my registration as a new user.

And I try not to cause too many migraines.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 23, 2012)

this is like the longest streak with no infractions since i joined for me....lol


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 23, 2012)

Actually, what we are leaning towards is just putting the 4 or 5 people in question in a 'all posts moderated' group which will be reviewed as we can, and let everyone else go as usual. Seems more fair to only moderate the folks demanding it.


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## Jenna (Feb 23, 2012)

I agree.  When it all kicks off in the playground / schoolyard, the teachers really must intervene.  No right thinking person can expect infants and juniors to have acquired the sense to resolve situations theirselves.  Really, what were you thinking, Bob and Mods?  And just for the record, my dolly IS prettier than your dolly! And all y'all dollies!


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 23, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Actually, what we are leaning towards is just putting the 4 or 5 people in question in a 'all posts moderated' group which will be reviewed as we can, and let everyone else go as usual. Seems more fair to only moderate the folks demanding it.


I think thats the best outcome. Ive been here for the best part of 3 years now and up until recently Id never really felt any tension here (I still dont really). If there are people breaking the rules then I dont see a problem with their posts being moderated if it comes to that, but Id hate to see it get to a point where someone is heavily moderated just because people complain about them and for no other reason. Providing that person is respectful in their posts. Merely having a difference of opinion is not fair means for extra moderation though in my opinion.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think thats the best outcome. Ive been here for the best part of 3 years now and up until recently Id never really felt any tension here (I still dont really).



I agree with this, there generally isn't tension.  Sure there are people on here who obviously don't get along (there's only one in my ignore filter and I may be removing that soon), but at the end of the day we're probably all adults, so if people are bickering, either filter out the meat of what they're saying or just ignore the bickering and skip ahead or read a different thread.  Without the heat in the debate, the place would probably be a lot quieter...


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I agree with this, there generally isn't tension.  Sure there are people on here who obviously don't get along (there's only one in my ignore filter and I may be removing that soon), but at the end of the day we're probably all adults, so if people are bickering, either filter out the meat of what they're saying or just ignore the bickering and skip ahead or read a different thread.  Without the heat in the debate, the place would probably be a lot quieter...


Exactly right Andy, I actually think its a good thing that we have people who are genuinely passionate about their beliefs, irrespective of what they are. There are people here I dont agree with, but I dont hold it against them personally, we just have different views on tkd which leads to good healthy debate. There are definetly people here who dont agree but very rarely, if ever, do people cross the line from what Ive seen (or maybe Im going to the wrong threads).


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I agree with this, there generally isn't tension. Sure there are people on here who obviously don't get along (there's only one in my ignore filter and I may be removing that soon), but at the end of the day we're probably all adults, so if people are bickering, either filter out the meat of what they're saying or just ignore the bickering and skip ahead or read a different thread. Without the heat in the debate, the place would probably be a lot quieter...



Passionate debate, yes. Repeatedly insulting people, no. 

Pax,

Chris


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2012)

Chris is correct.  IMO, some good, strong, passionate debate is good, and it does make a thread rather interesting.  I've passionately debated with many on here, about various things.  Though I may disagree with what they're saying, it really takes away from the enjoyment of posting, if people start tossing in veiled insults, rude comments, etc.  

Ex:  Sorry, I disagree with you, and we may be at a point where we'll have to just agree to disagree.  I'm set in my views, you in yours.

or...

You know what....you've got your head shoved so far up your *** its not even funny.  The stuff that you're saying right now is so dumb.  Why dont you get a clue!

Which one is the better route to take?  I'd say option 1.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2012)

MJS said:


> Chris is correct.  IMO, some good, strong, passionate debate is good, and it does make a thread rather interesting.  I've passionately debated with many on here, about various things.  Though I may disagree with what they're saying, it really takes away from the enjoyment of posting, if people start tossing in veiled insults, rude comments, etc.
> 
> Ex:  Sorry, I disagree with you, and we may be at a point where we'll have to just agree to disagree.  I'm set in my views, you in yours.
> 
> ...



Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that option 1 is better, but as an adult I can skip over option 2 if people choose to use it ;-)

I'd rather than than quiet threads and everyone falling over themselves to be polite and responses being less than open.

It's your call at the end of the day, I'm just saying it's a risk that it would go too far the other way if mods have a heavy hand - and personally I'd hate to see this forum (the TKD section of it) die off..


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## dancingalone (Feb 23, 2012)

Give the offenders penalty points if necessary and move on.  I think the idea of moderating a handful of people so that their posts stay in a queue until released seems silly.  

As for the locked thread about Disabled people and black belts, can a moderator reopen it as soon as the judicial review is over?  I think it was a good, interesting thread and it's a shame that discussion has been shut off.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 23, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Passionate debate, yes. Repeatedly insulting people, no.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris


Yep.



ralphmcpherson said:


> Exactly right Andy, I actually think its a good thing that we have people who are genuinely passionate about their beliefs, irrespective of what they are. There are people here I dont agree with, but I dont hold it against them personally, we just have different views on tkd which leads to good healthy debate. There are definetly people here who dont agree but very rarely, if ever, do people cross the line from what Ive seen (or maybe Im going to the wrong threads).


Yep.

I tend to disagree with some of what Puunui and MasterCole have to say.
But I can also see plenty I do agree with, and recognize the presence of reasoning and enough experience to warrant having those opinions, so its cool.
Its Good, in fact.

Plus, in debating some things, You have a chance to put a point across. The important thing is that both sides are prepared to possibly have to agree with the other, or agree to disagree, even if they dont like what theyre agreeing with. Its at that point that often, insults start flying. Unfortunately.
Which is unfortunate, really.
A good debate, even if youre both right, or both wrong, or ones right and ones wrong, can lead to learning more about the topic at hand, regardless. Or just learning more about your own opinion of it. Or you might learn something completely new.
Thats the beauty of a debate.
Even if the debate is You defending a viewpoint. Because if You succeed, thats all the more reason to possess it.

And so forth.

What needs to be moderated is when a debate turns into repetition of the same statements in different wording, essentially trying to hammer a view into the other person. Or criticizing them for not outright agreeing with You.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 23, 2012)

The problem is finding a balance between allowing people to work things out as adults, and needing to burp colicky babies who are prone to projectile vomiting and feces slinging.  
Confuse the 2, you kill the forum.
Ignore the 2nd, you kill the forum.
The babies run topics into the dirt, and drive off all 'other' views.

When there's a perception that the babies are running the playpen, we get numerous reports with comments like "I know you arent going to do anything about this....."

I don't want to do heavy moderation.
It's a lot of work.
It slows down discussions.
It's -A LOT- of work.
It can kill discussions.
Did I say we don't want to do heavy moderation?

So, no 'putting anything into a delayed review queue. Instead we've decided to focus a harder look at the people we see often in those same reports.
No, it's probably not fair to run their reported posts through a .000001 micron filter.
No, it's probably not fair to do the same to their reporters posts.
But, we'll go by 'letter of the law' and infract accordingly, and in a couple of weeks the water is cleaner.
My staff's under instructions to go right to point infractions for the 'usual names', as all of them have had the requisite 62 chances and a donut already.

Because it's the same couple of people going round and round nipping and barking and sniping and taking little shots at each other who play little games that are causing all the headaches, and we're tired of it.

Please, discuss what you want....but do it without the little digs.  Unless you're 12. Then get off the site, we have rules against pre-teens on here.

Danke.


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## shesulsa (Feb 23, 2012)

I stand firm that there are people who get off just watching productive conversation get shut down as we've seen happen to some potentially good threads here. It's a game. There is the type of person who really doesn't see what they're doing is blatantly against the rules so it becomes regular vernacular for those people. I think that's a double-edged sword in that it's good to look at intent ... but it's important to look at the effect of such ignorance. If people are being driven away from your business ... ya gotta fix the problem. Toxic relationships aren't like wine - they need to be thrown out with the vinegar.


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I stand firm that there are people who get off just watching productive conversation get shut down as we've seen happen to some potentially good threads here. It's a game. There is the type of person who really doesn't see what they're doing is blatantly against the rules so it becomes regular vernacular for those people. I think that's a double-edged sword in that it's good to look at intent ... but it's important to look at the effect of such ignorance. If people are being driven away from your business ... ya gotta fix the problem. Toxic relationships aren't like wine - they need to be thrown out with the vinegar.



I agree; there are people out there who get a sense of power or control by causing threads to close.  They're often folks who are careful enough to toe the line -- almost exactly.  They'll run their toes right up to the line, smudge it, but argue they never crossed it.  And they didn't -- in any one post.  But, as a whole?  Hell, yeah.

What can be really frustrating is when the problem children also have something valuable to contribute.  If they'd just drop the grade school crap...


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I agree; there are people out there who get a sense of power or control by causing threads to close.



Who gets a sense of power doing that? I know I don't. My sense of power comes when I get to help someone who wants help, so that they can go where they want to and are supposed to go.


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 23, 2012)

IMO, those who are passionate about their art will have strong opinions that will occasionally clash with others.  I have not taken strong offense to anything I have witnessed/experienced in the KMA threads.  Those I consider to be real trolls leave as quickly as they come, because we are a close knit group with regulations that foster productive discussion.  

As long as everyone is courteous and respectful, we have *great* discussions on here, and I'd hate for it to be compromised for some brief moments of indiscretion.  Whether I agree or disagree with every single post by anyone on here, I think that as a whole everyone contributes to these threads in a positive way.  

In our dojang, we stress that no one person is above Taekwondo, which I believe is applicable to all martial arts and life in general.  As long as we can keep our egos in check, I think there is a lot to be gained by the discussions on this website.. .

But then again, I haven't had any personal attacks or conflicts with any members on here.. .


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that option 1 is better, but as an adult I can skip over option 2 if people choose to use it ;-)



Unfortunately sir, not everyone shares your sentiment.  



> I'd rather than than quiet threads and everyone falling over themselves to be polite and responses being less than open.
> 
> It's your call at the end of the day, I'm just saying it's a risk that it would go too far the other way if mods have a heavy hand - and personally I'd hate to see this forum (the TKD section of it) die off..



I've been on this forum for quite a while.  To be honest, you'd really be surprised at how much leeway some are given.  Either way, we're between a rock and a hard place.  In other words...too heavy, you risk losing people, too light, and you risk losing people, and we're accused of not doing enough moderation.  And frankly, I agree with you...while I'm not a TKD person, there are alot of good people in this section and I wouldn't want to see it die off either.


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> As for the locked thread about Disabled people and black belts, can a moderator reopen it as soon as the judicial review is over? I think it was a good, interesting thread and it's a shame that discussion has been shut off.



Yes, that can probably be arranged.


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## shesulsa (Feb 24, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> I agree; there are people out there who get a sense of power or control by causing threads to close.  They're often folks who are careful enough to toe the line -- almost exactly.  They'll run their toes right up to the line, smudge it, but argue they never crossed it.  And they didn't -- in any one post.  But, as a whole?  Hell, yeah.
> 
> What can be really frustrating is when the problem children also have something valuable to contribute.  If they'd just drop the grade school crap...



I guess, in those cases, I'd have to ask myself if it's worth the headaches.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 24, 2012)

MJS said:


> I've been on this forum for quite a while.  To be honest, you'd really be surprised at how much leeway some are given.  Either way, we're between a rock and a hard place.  In other words...too heavy, you risk losing people, too light, and you risk losing people, and we're accused of not doing enough moderation.  And frankly, I agree with you...while I'm not a TKD person, there are alot of good people in this section and I wouldn't want to see it die off either.



May I suggest looking at their track record.  Look at repeated patterns.  Are they making an *effort* to get along with those they disagree with?  Are they making an *effort* to look at 'their' side of an issue.  Are they able to separate the member *FROM* the issue? 

Or,

Do they come into a thread, do a drive-by jab and then zip out?  If questioned about a little slice of sarcasm, do they respond with a legitimate justification?  Do they respond at all?  Even if asked directly my a mod or admin?  Are they a shill for another member?  Do they take threads off topic with regularity?  Not a bit of normal thread drift, but stupid stuff like arguing whether falling down is flying for two pages.  

People can be direct.  People can challenge your views in a professional, respectful manner.  People can question what you've stated, again in a professional, repectful manner.  That isn't a problem.  It is drive-bys, intentional sarcasm, intentional thread drift, arguing stupid crap page after page.  That is a problem.


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## seasoned (Feb 24, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> this is like the longest streak with no infractions since i joined for me....lol


You must be getting soft.  Really only just kidding, I at times enjoy your wit..................


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## Twin Fist (Feb 25, 2012)

dude, i have a rule, if i cant laugh at myself, i am not allowed to laugh at others....lol


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2012)

Ii thinks the Mods here do a very good job!  I have never seen a post that I would report.  I don't believe in censorship.  I have for that matter never reported a post.  I have had my posts reported and reviewed.  The mods again treated me fairly.  I really don't understand all the rule reading by the people who post on this board.  Some of it seems like junior high tattling.  I don't like you so I am going to try to get you kicked off the board.  I like the prickly curmudgeon posts of twin fist.  I enjoy the lawyerly and sometimes pompous posts of Punnui.  I even enjoyed the odd English perspective of Tez3.  I miss the humor of mango man.  I enjoy the misspellings of Terry.  This is a strange fun group.  I promise to go on an on about my kids until it drives you al crazy.  For my last parting shot of this hour my Youth BB thread is still the most entertaining and controversial thread ever on this Tkd BBS.  I was probably reported 10 times for that one.


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2012)

I can't forget Ralph the Aussie who trains at a studio with 4000 x KKW BB who  have discovered the true meaning of TKD and it's punching.  

Cant forget Mr Cole...o yeah him and Punnui are the some person.. Just kidding the Itf are commies...did I just say that... kidding again.

Can we all not take this so seriously and take a laugh break


BTW Bob Hubbard has 6000 screenl names and is everyone you hate...

For that matter  I am Bob...


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## Gorilla (Feb 25, 2012)

Btw I am going to go to kajukendo


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## seasoned (Feb 25, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> dude, i have a rule, if i cant laugh at myself, i am not allowed to laugh at others....lol


Thats, what I'm talking about.

Rule to live by for sure.................


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Ii thinks the Mods here do a very good job! I have never seen a post that I would report. I don't believe in censorship. I have for that matter never reported a post. I have had my posts reported and reviewed. The mods again treated me fairly. I really don't understand all the rule reading by the people who post on this board. Some of it seems like junior high tattling. I don't like you so I am going to try to get you kicked off the board. I like the prickly curmudgeon posts of twin fist. I enjoy the lawyerly and sometimes pompous posts of Punnui. I even enjoyed the *odd English perspective of Tez3.* I miss the humor of mango man. I enjoy the misspellings of Terry. This is a strange fun group. I promise to go on an on about my kids until it drives you al crazy. For my last parting shot of this hour my Youth BB thread is still the most entertaining and controversial thread ever on this Tkd BBS. I was probably reported 10 times for that one.



You've seen Granfire's signature haven't you? The other thing is that despite both countries having a common(ish) language we are actually quite foreign to each other. If Americans forget that we are British and imagine we are a foreign country they'd understand us rather better. We don't pretend to understand Americans in the same way that parents don't understand their teenagers lol!


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## elder999 (Feb 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You've seen Granfire's signature haven't you? The other thing is that despite both countries having a common(ish) language we are actually quite foreign to each other. If Americans forget that we are British and imagine we are a foreign country they'd understand us rather better. We don't pretend to understand Americans in the same way that parents don't understand their teenagers lol!




Actually, that same communication issue exists within the U.S. from state to state-I really have a hard time with some Texans, for instance, or people from Florida or Puerto Rico......
.......which is appropriate, since most of us think of Britain as a sort of 51st or 52nd (after Canada) state,anyway....:lfao:


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## Tez3 (Feb 25, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Actually, that same communication issue exists within the U.S. from state to state-I really have a hard time with some Texans, for instance, or people from Florida or Puerto Rico......
> .......which is appropriate, since most of us think of Britain as a sort of 51st or 52nd (after Canada) state,anyway....:lfao:




The thing is, we think we 'know' each other, that we understand each other when we don't, our cultures are actually very different, we don't actually share many experiences either to make common ground between us even though we've fought enemies together etc we had different experiences doing it. In a seriousness thinking of us as another state compounds the misunderstandings, we may be 'cousins' but we are the foreign cousins. I know Americans don't understand why we don't want guns, they think because we all speak english we should be like them but our history, experiences and views are very different from yours, the same with many things from the death penalty, abortion, politics and yes martial arts. We aren't so taken with the whole 'lineage' thing, Exile ( do come back please!) once explained it that because Americans don't have a couple of thousand years of history they are very keen to have lineages in something so in martial arts it's very important to them whereas we just think it's nice to know who your instructor's instructor was. In's all in perspectives, our perspectives are very different from yours and that leads to misunderstandings....bit like on some threads here.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 25, 2012)

The best I ever came up with that dichotomy, Tez, is that the English think 100 miles is a long way and the American's think 100 years is a long time .  

I miss Exile too.  I spoke to him a couple of times on the phone and he's as nice in 'person' as he is in text.


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## elder999 (Feb 25, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> that because Americans don't have a couple of thousand years of history they are very keen to have lineages in something so in martial arts it's very important to them whereas we just think it's nice to know who your instructor's instructor was. In's all in perspectives, our perspectives are very different from yours and that leads to misunderstandings....bit like on some threads here.



*Most* Americans don't have a couple of thousand years of history......:lfao:



Sukerkin said:


> The best I ever came up with that dichotomy, Tez, is that the English think 100 miles is a long way and the American's think 100 years is a long time .
> .



With each year over the age of thirty, I'm thinking 100 years isn't a long time at all....:lfao:


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## Sukerkin (Feb 25, 2012)

:chuckles:

Oh and you owe me a tenner, Elder, as I bet it would take less than half an hour for you to make a comment along those lines .  

All I can say is prove it!  Where are your written records and deeds of ownership?  Not got any have you?  No flag neither! {sticks out tongue ... in a mature way of course :lol:}.  Pics or it didn't happen .


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I can't forget Ralph the Aussie who trains at a studio with 4000 x KKW BB who  have discovered the true meaning of TKD and it's punching.
> 
> Cant forget Mr Cole...o yeah him and Punnui are the some person.. Just kidding the Itf are commies...did I just say that... kidding again.
> 
> ...


Thanks gorilla, Id thought you'd forgotten about me , Im glad all 4000 of us dont train at the one studio, that'd make for an interesting class. Fortunately we are spread out all over Australia.


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## Carol (Feb 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I can't forget Ralph the Aussie who trains at a studio with 4000 x KKW BB who  have discovered the true meaning of TKD and it's punching.
> 
> Cant forget Mr Cole...o yeah him and Punnui are the some person.. Just kidding the Itf are commies...did I just say that... kidding again.
> 
> ...



Yup.  A proud father.  Intelligent.  Knowledgeable about the arts, but for personal reasons isn't training themselves.

I knew you were Bob all along.  It wasn't a bad cover until you actually tried to take on another name.  Who the heck is named Tal anyway?  Might want to blend in a bit better next time.:lol:


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Sukerkin said:
			
		

> All I can say is prove it!  Where are your written records and deeds of ownership?  Not got any have you?  No flag neither! {sticks out tongue ... in a mature way of course :lol:}.  Pics or it didn't happen .



Dude.



> How can you buy or sell the sky, the         warmth of the land?  The idea is strange to us.  If we do not own the freshness         of the air and sparkle of the water, how can you buy them ? *Chief Seattle, 1854.....*maybe



I say "maybe," because _Sealth_ did indeed make a speech when the U.S. government attempted to "buy" a bunch of land. He made his speech in Dwamish, and it was translated by someone present into Chinook, which was them then translated into English. Who knows what he really said? Some would call it a myth, and for some it's fact. 

I call it history, though-it's a very...._Indian_ viewpoint-if he didn't say these things, any number of others would have. 

Take your written records, flags, and deeds of ownership, and wipe your **** with them, for all they really mean.[sticks out his tongue, in a mature way, of course...]...:lfao:


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## Gorilla (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You've seen Granfire's signature haven't you? The other thing is that despite both countries having a common(ish) language we are actually quite foreign to each other. If Americans forget that we are British and imagine we are a foreign country they'd understand us rather better. We don't pretend to understand Americans in the same way that parents don't understand their teenagers lol!



What???  Huh??? LOL!!!  Stop telling me what to do MOM!!!


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2012)

Wow. Is thread drift one word or two?


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Wow. Is thread drift one word or two?



If you think about it there's no thread drift, it's the same thing. We assume because we speak much the same language we understand each other but our experiences are different, our views are different and our way of life is different but misunderstandings happen because we think we are the same, that we spend our days in the same way thinking the same things. It's no different in martial arts, we assume because people do 'martial arts' they are doing it for the same reasons we are, that they train they same way etc etc, you get the 'drift'. What is really happening is that on both cases we project our own personalities if you like onto others, so if I think knowing all the history of my art is the important thing I'd get angry when someone says well it doesn't matter what the history is as long as you can fight. If you believe being a high Dan grade gives you the right to be snotty with lower ranks then you will be upset when the lower ranks answer back and not show you the respect you think you deserve and get, at least to your face, in your own style. It's a shock for some perhaps to come on here and be questioned when they don't in their own styles. The ego needs to be left behind if you want a good debate here, also don't project what you perceive someones feelings are onto them, so often people say wow you're angry, you're bitter' you're having a hissy fit when they aren't it's what the reader has thought not what the writer wrote!. We have people telling us in the Uk we are brainwqashed about guns etc etc but we just don't have the same history or experiences that Americans do with them so neither side can understand the other, likewise in martial arts we often don't think someone else is correct because we are basing it on our own experiences rather than looking at someone elses, in many ways familiarity does breed contempt.

Look at the UK as if it were a foreign country you don't know instead of one you think you do, look at other's martial arts in the same way and enjoy the differences.


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## Sukerkin (Feb 26, 2012)

elder999 said:


> I say "maybe," because _Sealth_ did indeed make a speech when the U.S. government attempted to "buy" a bunch of land. He made his speech in Dwamish, and it was translated by someone present into Chinook, which was them then translated into English. Who knows what he really said? Some would call it a myth, and for some it's fact.



Soooo ... got a video of that? :lol:


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Look at the UK as if it were a foreign country you don't know instead of one you think you do, look at other's martial arts in the same way and enjoy the differences.



I lived there for 7 years, and took my wife there to marry her on the walls of Amberly Castle. I think I know the UK better than most Americans. 

And yes, I realise that you were using the generic "you" and not the specific.

Still not sure it has anything to do with moderation levels though...


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I lived there for 7 years, and took my wife there to marry her on the walls of Amberly Castle. I think I know the UK better than most Americans.
> 
> And yes, I realise that you were using the generic "you" and not the specific.
> 
> ...


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Dirty Dog said:
> 
> 
> > I lived there for 7 years, and took my wife there to marry her on the walls of Amberly Castle. I think I know the UK better than most Americans.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Tez3 said:
> 
> 
> > Sticking with what I'm personally familiar with, I find the US and the UK to be about as dissimilar as the KKW and the ITF. Different in small ways (like the meaning of "keep your pecker up") but similar in most of the major ways, each with both good and bad points.
> ...


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Oh lord now you're for it...and I don't mean about the Brit/American thing..... the TKD thing.
> 
> 
> *I find a lot of differences tbh and chatting about this with the American exchange officer we had he did too, perhaps it depends on where in America you come from?*


There's a thing that Elder brought up, but you kind of poo poo'd.  America, much like Canada, is very, very large.  Our States are as big as most of the countries in Europe.  So, when you talk about America, you are talking about a country that is so different from State to State that it can be like going to a different country.

In other words, the point you've made, Tez, is a good one but is one that I believe most Americans have internalized to the point that it's a given.  I speak English much as they do in Louisiana, but the similarities we share are superficial.  Consider the way that Americans refer to Californians or Texans.  

Point being, Brits ARE foreign to us, but I don't know whether you can accurately say that you're MORE foreign that we are to each other.   

Or maybe I'm completely wrong and need to drink another cup of coffee.  



Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> Or maybe I'm completely wrong and need to drink another cup of coffee.



No, that's pretty much it.

I'm from New York, originally-I won't even get into the things people assume because of that, even though I've lived in New Mexico for 18 years now............
,......of course, I *do* think I'm better than anyone else, but it's because_ I am_, *not* because I'm from New York...:lfao:


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> There's a thing that Elder brought up, but you kind of poo poo'd. America, much like Canada, is very, very large. Our States are as big as most of the countries in Europe. So, when you talk about America, you are talking about a country that is so different from State to State that it can be like going to a different country.
> 
> In other words, the point you've made, Tez, is a good one but is one that I believe most Americans have internalized to the point that it's a given. I speak English much as they do in Louisiana, but the similarities we share are superficial. Consider the way that Americans refer to Californians or Texans.
> 
> ...




I've actually pointed out several times on MT that America is massively larger than we are, which is why things like our NHS, gun laws etc probably would never work for you. The analogy of course with martial arts is the huge organisations as opposed to ( or opposed as in against!) the small independents or even those with no organisations. I don't know whether you are foreign to each other or not tbh, there's not a lot of discussion about the different states on here. I don't know how much mind sets are different among Americans which will be why I haven't mentioned it. I also don't know what the different mind sets are among the different TKDists but I don't see why a couple of people should act as if they are superior to all others and by doing so try to demean others. this is somewhere for discussion, you shouldn't be mocked because your ranking, in another style at that, is deemed insufficient to be able to join in the conversations. You shouldn't receive neg rep because you disagree with something in polite way, debates shouldn't be conducted by rep. 


You can have the coffee, we're on the drams watching Scotland and France, the 'Auld Alliance', play each other at rugby.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I've actually pointed out several times on MT that America is massively larger than we are, which is why things like our NHS, gun laws etc probably would never work for you. The analogy of course with martial arts is the huge organisations as opposed to ( or opposed as in against!) the small independents or even those with no organisations. I don't know whether you are foreign to each other or not tbh, there's not a lot of discussion about the different states on here. I don't know how much mind sets are different among Americans which will be why I haven't mentioned it. I also don't know what the different mind sets are among the different TKDists but I don't see why a couple of people should act as if they are superior to all others and by doing so try to demean others. this is somewhere for discussion, you shouldn't be mocked because your ranking, in another style at that, is deemed insufficient to be able to join in the conversations. You shouldn't receive neg rep because you disagree with something in polite way, debates shouldn't be conducted by rep.
> 
> 
> You can have the coffee, we're on the drams watching Scotland and France, the 'Auld Alliance', play each other at rugby.



Exactly.  You don't know.  I'm trying to inform you.  Elder is, too.  You're saying that we don't understand how foreign you are.  I believe that most Americans do because we live with it even within our country.

Take the gun laws and NHS.  It's easy to get the impression that "America" has a position.  But it's nowhere near that simple.  America has an official position, which is reflected in Federal law.  But then each State has a position, which is distinct and frequently at complete odds with the National one.   Healthcare works differently in Washington State than it does in Massachusetts.  Gun laws are dramatically different in California and in Arizona, just a few hours away by car.  

What I'm saying is that you make a good point, and that it's a good reminder.  But don't make the same mistake in considering Americans to be homogenous.  Just as I'm sure you'd balk at mushing together the Welsh and... well, from what you've said in the past... anyone else. 

Regarding rep, I don't know what to say about that.  I think people can rep for whatever reason they want, good or bad.  It's just not that big a deal to me.  

Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## elder999 (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> . Gun laws are dramatically different in California and in Arizona, just a few hours away by car.
> .



Hell, I can strap on my Glock in the shoulder holster, put a jacket on and drive to Arizona or Colorado-set foot in California or take off that jacket in Denver, though, and I'm breaking the law.....


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> Exactly. You don't know. I'm trying to inform you. Elder is, too. You're saying that we don't understand how foreign you are. I believe that most Americans do because we live with it even within our country.
> 
> Take the gun laws and NHS. It's easy to get the impression that "America" has a position. But it's nowhere near that simple. America has an official position, which is reflected in Federal law. But then each State has a position, which is distinct and frequently at complete odds with the National one. Healthcare works differently in Washington State than it does in Massachusetts. Gun laws are dramatically different in California and in Arizona, just a few hours away by car.
> 
> ...



Actually what I'm saying is we are foreign to each other. I'm not discussing what Americans are to each other...because I don't know. I'm not assuming anything about Americans, my points about people using the NHS etc to compare with American systems etc are taken from specific posts on MT rather than assuming all Amricans are alike.  I'm talking only from my own viewpoint which is that Americans often think they know us but don't which was an analogy for martial arts in that because we do one style we can imgaine all must operate (not do techniques the same though but in basic operations, gradings, belts, membership that sort of thing) the same way.

I don't care what rep people give me, but do find it's bad manners especially from those in particular who espouse martial arts tenets and manners when they don't leave their name or use it to be insulting or rude, I'm aware it's reportable but again it makes work for the mods, and it serves no purpose other than for someone to vent their spleen.


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## Steve (Feb 26, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Actually what I'm saying is we are foreign to each other. I'm not discussing what Americans are to each other...because I don't know. I'm not assuming anything about Americans, my points about people using the NHS etc to compare with American systems etc are taken from specific posts on MT rather than assuming all Amricans are alike.  I'm talking only from my own viewpoint which is that Americans often think they know us but don't which was an analogy for martial arts in that because we do one style we can imgaine all must operate (not do techniques the same though but in basic operations, gradings, belts, membership that sort of thing) the same way.
> 
> I don't care what rep people give me, but do find it's bad manners especially from those in particular who espouse martial arts tenets and manners when they don't leave their name or use it to be insulting or rude, I'm aware it's reportable but again it makes work for the mods, and it serves no purpose other than for someone to vent their spleen.



Let me back up.  

Tez.  I understand what you're saying.  You're saying that Brits and Americans are foreign to each other.  I get that.

I also get that you don't know much about Americans, and that you're not assuming anything about us.

Noted.  Okay?

Now... to move the conversation forward. 

So, Tez.  You mentioned earlier that you don't know much about the distinct cultural diversity that exists in America.  Let me share some of what I know, as an American who has lived in many different parts of the country.  {insert all of the previous comments regarding geographical and cultural diversity in America here}

Point being, it's easy, particularly on these boards, to get an impression about "Americans" which isn't representative of most Americans.  So, when Elder and I attempt to agree with you, but clarify a couple of things, it's not because we don't understand your point.  It's because we DO understand your point. 


Sent using Tapatalk.  Please ignore typos.


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## Tez3 (Feb 26, 2012)

Steve said:


> Let me back up.
> 
> Tez. I understand what you're saying. You're saying that Brits and Americans are foreign to each other. I get that.
> 
> ...



then say so and don't be so long winded about it. Yes Tez you are correct as always will do it! :lol:


I'm basically trying to show Dirty Dog though what relevance this has to the OP rather than preach to the converted!

I did put up a thread a while back asking if the views here were representative of America or way out. I think the concensus was that there aren't so many right wingers in reality lol!


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## Carol (Feb 26, 2012)

Feels like I just walked in to The Study for some reason....


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## MJS (Feb 26, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> May I suggest looking at their track record. Look at repeated patterns. Are they making an *effort* to get along with those they disagree with? Are they making an *effort* to look at 'their' side of an issue. Are they able to separate the member *FROM* the issue?



Depends on the person.  Some do what you said, others do not.  This is why it often takes a few days for us to review things.  



> Or,
> 
> Do they come into a thread, do a drive-by jab and then zip out? If questioned about a little slice of sarcasm, do they respond with a legitimate justification? Do they respond at all? Even if asked directly my a mod or admin? Are they a shill for another member? Do they take threads off topic with regularity? Not a bit of normal thread drift, but stupid stuff like arguing whether falling down is flying for two pages.



Again, it varies from person to person.  



> People can be direct. People can challenge your views in a professional, respectful manner. People can question what you've stated, again in a professional, repectful manner. That isn't a problem. It is drive-bys, intentional sarcasm, intentional thread drift, arguing stupid crap page after page. That is a problem.



You are correct.  Like I said, alot of it comes down to wording.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2012)

Wow.  A six page thread on why this section needs heavier moderation than other parts of the site.  

There isn't really anything to discuss; the people who repeatedly cause the problems have all been talked to, both on the forum by those of us with the courtesy to tell them why their behavior is problematic, and by the mods both on the boards and behind the scenes.

Common courtesy may be uncommon, but everyone knows what it is.  Its a pretty standard part of elementary school.  It is simply a question of caring enough to put it into use.  Some people actually take pride in being sarcastic or in eschewing common courtesy.  Others have some weird, quasi evangelistic crusade to expose frauds and what they see as practices damaging to on art or another.  

Whatever the reasons that people have for bad behavior, make no mistake, they are fully aware of what they are doing and simply choose to ignore the TOS, mod warnings, and friendly 'heads up' comments from others.

We can discuss why we need to behave or we can just behave.  Personally, I trust the mod staff to make the best decision about how to handle it.  Whatever decision is made, the rest of us need to respectfully abide by.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2012)

At the end of the day, we're going to do what we think is best for the long term survival of the site and the section.  We've been forced to ban "VIP"'s in the past, one within a few days of his registering because we didn't rush to kiss his feet fast enough. I don't care what rank you are, what your title is, who you know, or who you are.  If I had the 'nerve' to suspend my own instructor, co-founder of the site and a major client of mine....what makes anyone else 'exempt'?   

I want the KMA part of MT to be the best place for passionate in-depth discussions of all things KMA related. "Best" to me means a few things.  

1- Our tag line is "friendly". That means keep the mud slinging to a rare minimum.  Other sites welcome that, we don't. I want lurkers to read our topics and think 'hey, I want to join, these guys are cool". Not "wow, what a bunch of whiny children." So 'best' here is 'friendly and inviting and welcoming'.

2- MT is almost 11 years old. I could cut costs incredibly if I'd just nuke 10 years and 6 GB of discussions. But I won't. I want this to be the longest running, most in depth, most discussion heavy forum there is. So 'best' here is 'lots n lots n lots of discussions!'

3- Members run from newbie to expert. We want to have some balance that appeals to all levels of learning. So 'best' here is a diverse range of member experiences.

4- Our function is discussion. So best here is lots of discussion.

I realize that there are different organizations, different curriculum, hell just different opinions. That's what makes things great.  We want that. Share it, express it, hell, argue a bit if you like.

But we're not going to tolerate the BS anymore. We can't. It's too much work. So, we're looking at complaints carefully and issuing point infractions liberally. The offenders will either cut out the BS or ultimately ban themselves.  They also might decide that being told to act like a mature adult is impossible and leave, possibly stomping their feet a lot on the way out before heading elsewhere to call me and my staff poopie heads and booger eaters. That's their call of course, but it's not that hard to survive on this site. They just choose to be childish rather than respect my house and my house rules and the great resource that all of you have developed here over the past decade. If they can't respect that...I don't want them here.

I want MT to be the best. I want the best members, the best staff, the best content, the best everything. I've believed that for almost 11 years now. You folks tell me if my belief's been in error.  Not here.  On the other topics out there.  I'll know if the reports calm down, if the bickering eases, if post counts go up, if new topics and new members show up.  It's all in the end, up to all of you. I'm just the guy who makes sure the peanuts in the lounge are fresh.

:asian:


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## mastercole (Feb 26, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> At the end of the day, we're going to do what we think is best for the long term survival of the site and the section.  We've been forced to ban "VIP"'s in the past, one within a few days of his registering because we didn't rush to kiss his feet fast enough. I don't care what rank you are, what your title is, who you know, or who you are.  If I had the 'nerve' to suspend my own instructor, co-founder of the site and a major client of mine....what makes anyone else 'exempt'?
> 
> I want the KMA part of MT to be the best place for passionate in-depth discussions of all things KMA related. "Best" to me means a few things.
> 
> ...



I'd say that sounds more than fair.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Oh lord now you're for it...and I don't mean about the Brit/American thing..... the TKD thing.



I like living on the edge. 




Tez3 said:


> I find a lot of differences tbh and chatting about this with the American exchange officer we had he did too, perhaps it depends on where in America you come from?



I am absolutely certain that matters. It may also matter that I was an Air Force brat and so I lived in a lot of places. I was used to the norm being quite variable.

That said, I'll add that I do think that the US and UK, like the KKW and the ITF, have more in common than they do in difference. But those differences, subtle as they can be, make a HUGE difference. Back to my example of meanings. In the UK, "Keep your pecker up" is an encouragement to bravery or persistence. In the US, it's an ad for a little blue pill.


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