# Which martial art is most similar to Tai Chi



## kubrick (Nov 1, 2008)

I would like to compliment my TC training with another martial art. Have previously trained in TKD and Shotokan but I am now looking for a softer form. Any ideas?
Thanks


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 1, 2008)

I guess Bagua or Hsing Yi could help.


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## grydth (Nov 1, 2008)

I'd suggest exploring Kung Fu if instruction is available.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 1, 2008)

First question or two; How long have you trained Taijiquan? What style of taijiquan do you trin?

Xingyi, Bagua or another style of taijiquan 

But to be honest I found some incredible similarities in Military Sanda


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## arnisador (Nov 1, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I guess Bagua or Hsing Yi could help.



Makes sense to me!


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## kubrick (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanks for the replies.
I am currently learning Yang Long Form TC (108 movement). Been doin TC for 6 months or so but only just found a good instructor. Did TKD to Red belt and Shotokan when I was a kid.
I'm interested in softer forms as I suffer from RSI (guitar playing!) and I always remembered when doing TKD i was always very tensed up. I realise I was probably too tense and actually doing things incorrectly but i find it much easier to stay loose with a softer style.
I used to play guitar very tensed up also, hence problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 2, 2008)

kubrick said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> I am currently learning Yang Long Form TC (108 movement). Been doin TC for 6 months or so but only just found a good instructor. Did TKD to Red belt and Shotokan when I was a kid.
> I'm interested in softer forms as I suffer from RSI (guitar playing!) and I always remembered when doing TKD i was always very tensed up. I realise I was probably too tense and actually doing things incorrectly but i find it much easier to stay loose with a softer style.
> I used to play guitar very tensed up also, hence problem.


 
If you have only been doing taiji for 6 months might I suggest sticking with taiji a while longer before you look for something else. That is unless you are done with taiji and want to move on.

The long for is just the beginning.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 2, 2008)

As Master Yang Jwing Ming once explained, Tai Chi is actually not a martial art perse.  It is a philosophy.  All things in creation have come to be through the harmony of positve and negative.   One also speaks of wuji or no polarity-a primordial state.  However taichi is the philosophy of yin and yang.  Taichichuan should be similar to conventional martial arts training and means 'the fist of taichi'  -  it should be noted, however, that there is much mystery about the subject of taichi everywhere and also that socalled conventional martial arts usually also aspire to incorporate philosophical aspects, health as well as wholistic approaches.  So there is not that much difference after all, but in essence taichi is not merely a martial art and i believe that all activities and things in life definately can be directly related to the concept of taichi.

My opinion as to which martial arts most resemble taichichuan would be aikido for one, as it was intended and taught by UeshibaOsensei.  
Aikido at first glance may seem more mechanical and less round than taichichuan, but i believe that the conepts are the same.  Many aiki exercises can be seen as qigong, and ki is a central subject in the philosophy of taichi and the practice of taichichuan.

j


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## kubrick (Nov 2, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> If you have only been doing taiji for 6 months might I suggest sticking with taiji a while longer before you look for something else. That is unless you are done with taiji and want to move on.
> 
> The long for is just the beginning.



Thanks, I realise I am very much a beginner at TC, but I am just looking for some more practical self defence training and i would like to find a style that has some symbiosis (!) with my TC.

Thanks again for all replies!


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## mograph (Nov 2, 2008)

Ah. The thing with Internal Chinese MA such as Taijiquan, Bagua and Xingyi is that it generally takes a long time to get to a point where you can use it in self-defence. From what I've experienced and read, anyway. 

That said, I think the closest you could get for your needs would be Aikido (as kaisasosei wrote), which has its roots in Bagua as I understand it.

Or maybe you could find a school that does Chen style Taijiquan for self-defence, but that could be difficult. 

Or maybe a Kung Fu school (as grydth suggested) that has a strong internal component to its curriculum would suit your needs.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 3, 2008)

[QUOTE I realise I am very much a beginner at TC, but I am just looking for some more practical self defence training and i would like to find a style that has some symbiosis ][/QUOTE]

The practical self defense is all there!!

 The thing is knowing how to apply it.

IMO if you are looking for similar style the best bet would be Bagua and Hsing yi and it is not uncommon for the masters of old to train in one of these as well as Tai chi chuan just look at Sun Lu T'ang. Also looking at the masters of old they were very accomplish fighters.

good luck


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## hpulley (Nov 3, 2008)

Most who teach taiji at a martial arts school instead of a community center light fitness programme will also be able to teach you ba gua and wushu (kung fu), sanshou, et al.  Taiji is an internal style of wushu (kung fu) so that would be the obvious step up into something of higher intensity.  Sanshou is 'practical wushu' so it is more focused on self defense and fighting.

In truth though, karatedo came from both okinawan and chinese systems and now Japanese wushu (karatedo) has been incorporated back into sanshou so you can find elements of taiji in Japanese systems as well.  In fact my dojo teaches both Okinawan and Chinese systems and talks about the common origins of both.  Both are about the best way to move your body and train your body for many reasons, only one of which is self defense.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 3, 2008)

> That said, I think the closest you could get for your needs would be Aikido (as kaisasosei wrote), which has its roots in Bagua as I understand it.


 
yes, i believe that is true in several ways.  The precurser to aikido, Daitoryu aikijujutsu has basics that are built upon the 8 directions and are comprised of off balancing techniques towards all sides actually named after the 'eight pillar' trigrams.  

Furthermore, aikido founder UeshibaOsensei would often talk about using the right hand or the left hand as in and yo (or ying and yang).  Also, aikido is one of the arts that lays great emphasis on ki or energy as well as tanden.  this can mean different things in different schools but there are similarities between the arts.


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## bostonbomber (Nov 3, 2008)

I'm going to have to agree with Xue Sheng, I'd stick with taiji before attempting another system.  I think it is important to supplement your taiji training with something more intensive (e.g., weight training, running, etc).  But if you try learning a new system at this early stage it will be very difficult to separate the concepts of taiji from the other choice (even if the other choice is also a so called "internal" system as well).

Taiji is an extremely effective, complete system.  As far as fighting goes, it doesn't have to be complemented with anything.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 3, 2008)

kubrick said:


> Thanks, I realise I am very much a beginner at TC, but I am just looking for some more practical self defence training and i would like to find a style that has some symbiosis (!) with my TC.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks again for all replies!


 
There is a rather large amount of practical self-defense training in Taiji but in order to understand it and use it as Taiji is meant to be used you need to have first s qualified Sifu that understands it and will teach it and be willing to take the time to learn it. And also there is a need to understand that a qualified Taijiquan Sifu does know better than you what you need to learn and what you are ready to understand and learn

If you are looking for Bagua of Xingyi or anything else in order to use taiji as a self-defense art you are not learning taiji you are learning another style such as Bagua and Xingyi and applying their views to taiji and you then do not have taiji. Xingyi and Bagua although internal are not the same as taiji when it comes to the martial arts at all. 

Taijiquan yields and blends where Baguazhang circles and evades and Xingyi tends to not yield, blend, circle or evade it tends to smash straight through. And aikido, although a great martial art, is not taiji and it does not approach fighting the same and combining Taiji with aikido is again not taiji at all and it misses the point, as far as taiji is concerned, as it applies to application

I mean no offense but it sounds as if you are looking to reinvent the wheel or take a short cut to the martial arts of taiji and there is no need to reinvent it at all, find a teacher that is qualified and listen to what he/she says and take the time to learn it. And there are no shortcuts, particularly in any CMA art categorized as internal.

Bottom-line if you want the martial arts of taiji you have to understand it takes years. My Sifu agrees with his sifu in that it takes about 6 years just to understand the long form and basic push hands. And martial applications are part of that but you are still not done training and learning things taiji by far even after 6 years.

EDIT

Arbitrary numbers here because it is all based on how hard you train and how often you see your Sifu but I have been told that if you are going by taiji taking at least 6 years to understand the long form enough to use any of it as it was meant to be used as taiji you are talking 4 years to get to that in a Baguazhang form and 2 years in Xingyiquan. None of it comes easy or quickly and if your goal is taiji then I would stick with taiji adding another style with only 6 months in taiji will only cause confusion, beleive me I know I tried many years ago myself..


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## kaizasosei (Nov 3, 2008)

The question was which martial art, of the many out there, is most similar to Tai Chi?  No doubt taichi is an excellent as well as complete system and has deep philosophical roots.  If you, Xue Sheng believe that there is no martial art that comes even close to taichi, then just say so.   I feel the question does deserve some kind of appropriate answer...

but definately, it is true that there are a host of excellent kinds of chinese systems that would be great supplements to taichichuan training.  Both grappling and striking....there are probably more than in any other culture.  I first started with choy lay fu and qigong as a youngster....

who's to say, maybe aikido is just a form of taichi...it's just that i was trying to answer the question.  I wasnt telling anyone what they should do because maybe they're not doing anything wrong in the first place.  



j


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 3, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> The question was which martial art, of the many out there, is most similar to Tai Chi? No doubt taichi is an excellent as well as complete system and has deep philosophical roots. If you, Xue Sheng believe that there is no martial art that comes even close to taichi, then just say so. I feel the question does deserve some kind of appropriate answer...
> 
> but definately, it is true that there are a host of excellent kinds of chinese systems that would be great supplements to taichichuan training. Both grappling and striking....there are probably more than in any other culture. I first started with choy lay fu and qigong as a youngster....
> 
> ...


 
I was not responding to you I was responding to kubrick and not saying anything against you or your post or anyone elses specifically, It may be a good combination but it is not taiji if you combine aikido with taiji and it is not aikido if you combine taiji with aikido. It may be effective but it is neither taiji nor aikido. They have different philosophies, different strategies and different applications, different origins, etc. 

But taiji is taiji, xingyi is xingyi, bagua is bagua and aikido is aikido they all have different approaches to martial arts and fighting

As to aikido being another form of taiji, not in my opinion or my sifu's. However I, like my Sifu, am rather impressed by aikido. But I doubt you would not find anyone of the taiji families that would call Aikido Taiji. And likely not find any of Morihei Ueshiba family or students calling aikido taiji either. As a matter of fact I was at a demo, at my old taiji school, of one of the students of a student of Ueshiba (sorry his name escapes me at the moment but he teachers of taught in NYC) where he did say this is not taiji. But without that I would still say it is not. There are similarities but they are not the same.

And what was said by kubrick is he was looking for "some more practical self defense training". Taiji is rather practical it just takes a long time to learn and at an early stage if you go off and start combining things you will miss the point. 

Is aikido similar to taiji? Yes I believe it is.

Is Aikido another type of taiji? No I do not believe it is.


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## kaizasosei (Nov 3, 2008)

Hi.  

Thanks for getting back to me.  I did not feel threatened or offended.  It's alright for everyone to have their own approaches.  I suppose that is what makes each style special.  I suppose that i am extreme in my own way, always dabbling in so many different diciplines and systems...
sometimes i get a tad irritated and wonder why people choose to completely limit themselves to one martial art even to the point of becoming martial art vain.  Then again sometimes i admire the dedication and the quest for perfection.  Also, i think that it might be confusing to mix up too many different arts and it may be challenging to get it all under one hat, in itself.

One time, the question was asked in a caligraphy class if taichi is the most powerful martial art or what is the most powerful martial art....the caligraphy teacher remained silent though im quite sure he is a good martial artist and would have plenty of opinion.  Then i casually interrupted and proclaimed with utter confidence that taichi is the most powerful martial art and it is almost silly just posing the question.
It was weird however the reaction i caused, people started to whisper some with a look in their eyes like 'ooh, he said it' others seemed pleased yet bewildered by the statement and the confidence i exuded, especially coming from the japanology institute, just visiting for caligraphy.

Thing is, it is not about what, who which is the strongest.  It is about the subject matter. The essence of taichi is the essence of all martial arts.  I personally equate taichi with alchemy, both eastern and western which is the highest art known to man above swordsmanship and even higher than wizardry.
so it is obvious that taichi being the essence all arts that if mastered 
is the most powerful-that has nothing to do with names or cultures. after all, a taekwondo kick may have a certain style to it, but in the end it is not a taekwondo kick, it is a high kick or a fast kick or a beautiful kick.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 3, 2008)

Dabbled a bit myself (jma, kma, cma), spent the last several years in Yang Taiji and done some Chen (still do actually). But have decided to move on to (return to) Xingyiquan. But I still have a big connection to Taijiquan and I often think about returning. And I have absolutely no problem with combining arts, the only problem I do have is when someone trains something like Taiji and then tries to combine it with another style to get the martial arts of it and still call it Taiji when if they took the time and listened to thier sifu they would find the true martial arts of it. What they end up with is something that might be effective but it is not Taiji. And I do not feel it is superior to any other art it is just another wy that is all. 

My Yang sifu has spent over 50 years in Taiji and only Taiji and to be honest I do not find him lacking anywhere as a martial artist. His patience and calm in the face of confrontation has always amazed me as well as the ease with which he is able to move someone. He is at a level I wish I could attain but I do not have the time as he did to dedicate to it. But who knows what the future holds, only time will tell


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## oxy (Nov 3, 2008)

I pretty much agree that 6 months is not long enough to get a good understanding of Taiji to try and supplement it with other things.

I think at this point, a lot of mental effort should be spent on learning how to observe. I think there's too much emphasis on "what the teacher can teach" and not enough on "what the student can learn".

When you can observe people and understand their movements, you can incorporate many aspects of other martial arts without having trained in them and still retain, in this case, Taijiness.


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## Nitedragon89 (Nov 3, 2008)

I think Da Cheng Chuan is pretty close to being similair to Tai Chi


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## Laoshi77 (Nov 5, 2008)

kaizasosei said:


> The essence of taichi is the essence of all martial arts.


 
I like that. To elaborate further I feel that most martial arts at a higher level actually begin to resemble Taijiquan. I've seen high level Ninjutsu practitioners resemble a Taijiquan stylist; Glenn Morris often spoke of the benefits in learning Taiji and he was a man who practised many effective martial arts.
Again Aikido and Wing Chun stylists also possess the grace of the Taiji practitioner; the more you learn the softer your movement and techniques will become. This is the ultimate level of martial arts in my humble opinion.


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## kubrick (Nov 5, 2008)

Many thanks for all your replies.


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## furtom (Nov 11, 2008)

mograph said:


> Ah. The thing with Internal Chinese MA such as Taijiquan, Bagua and Xingyi is that it generally takes a long time to get to a point where you can use it in self-defence. From what I've experienced and read, anyway.
> 
> That said, I think the closest you could get for your needs would be Aikido (as kaisasosei wrote), which has its roots in Bagua as I understand it.
> 
> ...



Well, I started with aikido and recently added tai chi to my practice. It has worked very well for me, but I have been studying aikido for more than 2 years, which still isn't much, but more than the OP's 6 months.

Having said that, I don't think it would hurt any. We all know when we are satisfied and when we feel we need more. Maybe a few (or many) years later, we will realize we didn't need to make such-and-such a move or change, but that's not of much use in the present.

My tai chi is probably a little better than most beginners because I have some experience in another internal art. The study of tai chi has been like approaching the same "problem" from another angle and has helped my aikido in just a very short time.

In the final analysis, we study this stuff to satisfy and challenge ourselves. Each individual is his own light in that regard.

BTW, we haven't considered in this thread the possibility that the OP wants to study a more practical martial art because his teacher may not teach tai chi as such. There are plenty of such teachers out there.

Best.
Tom


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## kubrick (Nov 16, 2008)

furtom said:


> .
> BTW, we haven't considered in this thread the possibility that the OP wants to study a more practical martial art because his teacher may not teach tai chi as such.
> 
> Best.
> Tom



Thanks again to everyone. The above quote sums it up. In fact I did not even realise TC had any practical applications until I started looking on YouTube. We don't really get taught these applications ... yet. Of course the other prob is that I started with the Toaist TC dudes who deliberately remove ANY and ALL practical applications from thier syllabus


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Nov 16, 2008)

You may want to contact a poster here named Eastwinds who is in Scotland and does Taichichuan. He may be able to assist you in your area.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 16, 2008)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You may want to contact a poster here named Eastwinds who is in Scotland and does Taichichuan. He may be able to assist you in your area.


 
Although eastwinds and I do not always agree I will say I second that.

If I were in Scotland looking for Yang Style Taiji I would look to his school, he is very knowledgeable.


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## Franzfri (Jan 13, 2009)

"My opinion as to which martial arts most resemble taichichuan would be aikido for one, as it was intended and taught by UeshibaOsensei. 
Aikido at first glance may seem more mechanical and less round than taichichuan, but i believe that the conepts are the same. Many aiki exercises can be seen as qigong, and ki is a central subject in the philosophy of taichi and the practice of taichichuan."

It's interesting that you say that. We had a student at the school I attend that ran an aikido school. I often wondered why someone who was an expert at aikido would study taichichuan. My school teaches bagua and xiang yi (please forgive my spelling) as well as taiji and our sifu encourages taiji students to study both forms. I've resisted so far as I would like to become more adept at taiji and I'm 65 years old. I believe that the grey belt shoulin students at my school are required to take a minimum number of taiji classes before testing for black belt.


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## ggg214 (Jan 14, 2009)

after reading some replies, i am wandering why does somebody worship a style named taiji so blindly.
yes, i admit that taiji is also the name of one great chinese philosophy, and taiji quan in some extend uses yin and yang concept in its explanation. but it's just a style, as the same as many other CMAs.
in somebody's eyes, taiji quan's concept interprets the basic and most important principle of MA.but it's no mean to consider taiji quan is the principle of MA.
IMO, taiji quan is not so practical, this is its disadvantage. without passing any MA's basic traing, i suggest not to choose taiji quan. on the other, if you are looking for health, it's a good choice .


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 14, 2009)

ggg214 said:


> after reading some replies, i am wandering why does somebody worship a style named taiji so blindly.
> yes, i admit that taiji is also the name of one great chinese philosophy, and taiji quan in some extend uses yin and yang concept in its explanation. but it's just a style, as the same as many other CMAs.
> in somebody's eyes, taiji quan's concept interprets the basic and most important principle of MA.but it's no mean to consider taiji quan is the principle of MA.
> IMO, taiji quan is not so practical, this is its disadvantage. without passing any MA's basic traing, i suggest not to choose taiji quan. on the other, if you are looking for health, it's a good choice .


 
It all depends on your teacher, the style and how much time one is willing to spend training and how long a period of time they are willing to dedicate to it


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## geezer (Jan 14, 2009)

kubrick said:


> I would like to compliment my TC training with another martial art. Have previously trained in TKD and Shotokan but I am now looking for a softer form. Any ideas?
> Thanks


 
First you need to clarify your goals. What do you want to get out of Tai Chi? How far do you want to take it, and how _patient_ are you? If you are making Tai chi your main focus and foundation, and want to pursue it deeply, both for health and as a martial art, then carefully consider the excellent advice given by _Xue._

On the other hand, if you are practicing Tai Chi more casually, mainly to give yourself better balance and flow, then you may want to practice another martial art _that you can apply in fighting more quickly_. You already have experience in hard, external styles (Shotokan, TKD). And, another Chinese internal system will take a very long time to master--especially if you are dividing your time between two arts. Maybe you could try a _soft_ external style, like Wing Tsun? It teaches relaxation, yielding and flow, but is more immediately applicable. But whatever you choose, you will have to stick with it a lot longer than 6 months to learn anything of value. Good luck.


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## kubrick (Feb 7, 2009)

Thanks again everyone. I have a good instructor and I think I'm making good progress. Since my OP several months ago I have gained a little more understanding about the martial applications, but the school I am at doesn't go too deeply into these or into things like push-hands.

I know of another school with classes near me which does foreground the self-defence applications (Five Winds in Scotland) so I may attend some classes there.​


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2009)

kubrick said:


> Thanks again everyone. I have a good instructor and I think I'm making good progress. Since my OP several months ago I have gained a little more understanding about the martial applications, but the school I am at doesn't go too deeply into these or into things like push-hands.​
> 
> I know of another school with classes near me which does foreground the self-defence applications (Five Winds in Scotland) so I may attend some classes there.​


 
Did you check here


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## SteffenBerg (Feb 8, 2009)

I think rather than looking for arts similar to Tai Ji, perhaps one ought to shift the paradigm a bit and think of what would complement Tai Ji - while still adhering to the principles of grounding, relaxation, generating power from the center etc. 

While Ba Gua, Xing Yi and other internal arts use the same/similar principles to Tai Ji I think you would benefit more from going outside of the traditional realm of internal arts. The same goes for Aikido (and I have to say most Aikido taught is lacking internal structure - even though it ought to be present). 

I've personally chosen to study Brazilian Jiu Jitsu to complement my Tai Ji. While BJJ does not teach internal principles per se, they are definitely present in the system and the principles taught in Tai Ji complement it well - particularly when it comes to the throwing and chin-na aspects and even while on the ground. 

I would however suggest that you get a firm grounding in the internal principles before venturing out and exploring another art... 2 - 3 years should probably do the trick (provided you have a good instructor in the internal).

Just my 2 cents.
Stef

P.S. Just to give some background on my training, I'm currently a student of Chen style Tai Ji, but have a broad range of experience in various arts: from hard style Karate (e.g. Kyokushinkai and Hawaiian Kempo- about 7 years each); to some experience with Xing Yi, Ba Gua and Aikido (about 3 - 4 years each)... and I chose to seek out and focus on Chen style and BJJ.


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## Quotheraving (Feb 8, 2009)

Personally i find that Brazialian Jiu jutsu involves giving up one's root at the first possible opportunity and grappling on the the ground. It may well complement Tai Chi, but it certainly isn't in any shape or form similar.

What surprised me however was how the skills of Tai Ji and judo can complement one another and how both rely upon a solid root.

Take this Judo player for instance : 




note the solid root.

Now have a look at the same fella practising Tai Ji :


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## SteffenBerg (Feb 8, 2009)

Quotheraving said:


> Personally i find that Brazialian Jiu jutsu involves giving up one's root at the first possible opportunity and grappling on the the ground. It may well complement Tai Chi, but it certainly isn't in any shape or form similar.



The trick is to not look at it one-dimensionally as standing art vs. ground art - because,  believe it or not, they actually have quite a few similarities... You just have to think about how you would apply the principles of Tai Ji while on your back or in the mount etc.

There are ways to use your structure, spine and center etc. (in a very similar way to Tai Ji) to make life very difficult for your opponent. 

I've had several conversations with the Aunkai guys here in Tokyo (who use a great lot of principles from Chen Tai Ji) and also had conversations with Tim Cartmell (in So. Cal) a few years ago about this. They can all show you how to use internal principles while on the ground.

/Stef


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## Quotheraving (Feb 9, 2009)

SteffenBerg said:


> The trick is to not look at it one-dimensionally as standing art vs. ground art - because,  believe it or not, they actually have quite a few similarities... You just have to think about how you would apply the principles of Tai Ji while on your back or in the mount etc.



Tai Ji isn't _just_ rooting you are quite right, but it starts there, giving up your root immediately simply isn't TaiJi. 
I used the 'desire' to abandon root as an obvious example of the major difference, but there are others.

In the absence of rooting the only possible similarity that you can draw between Tai Ji and BJJ is if you could clearly demonstrate that BJJ uses the 8 energies as well as sticking and listening.

Take a look at this video of Sam Masich explaining how the Tai Ji principles can be extended to ground fighting for a clarification of how the principles of TaiJi do translate to ground fighting.






the same principles can be seen here in defenses against attempts to initiate grappling:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cel1-hIO_dc&feature=related


I don't mean this as a slight to you or your art, and recognise that practising a ground fighting style can make for a more rounded martial artist, it's just that I see less similarities between TaiJi and BJJ than I see between TaiJi and say Crane style 



 (as can be seen here demonstrated by Huang Shen Shyan, who incidentally also studied TaiJi) or Wing Chun http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrEDhQBicUs&feature=related.


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