# Push Hands Demonstration: Pardon my ignorance...



## zzj (Oct 9, 2014)

Firstly, I am still very much a beginner at Tai Chi Chuan (Taijiquan), having slightly more than a year's experience in Chen Style, having done only forms and not Push Hands.

That said, I enjoy watching Push Hands videos on youtube and am acquainted with the theory behind push hands (Chen-centric of course)... the question is as follows:..

When I watch demonstrations involving Chen Style, this is usually what I see...






however, when I watch videos involving other styles, especially Yang and its variants, I sometimes come across stuff like this...






The first video shows Chen Ziqiang, one of Chen Style's foremost 20th Generation exponent.

The second video is by GM Huang Sheng Shyan, student of Cheng Man Ching and contemporary of William Chen so he's definitely no charlatan.


I can immediately appreciate the what is going on for Chen Ziqiang's video, while in GM Huang's video there is almost no external indication of the inner workings; while it can be said that these are 2 different kinds of demonstrations against differing levels of resistance, but I don't remember seeing any Chen Stylist demonstrating such (almost) unbelievable feats.

Is this due to fundamentally different internal workings, or the culture of the style/variant?


----------



## zzj (Oct 9, 2014)

(Sorry, no English Subs, it is entirely in Mandarin)

This video is a lecture on the internal theory in Yang Style (?) with several fajing demonstrations. I didn't watch entire video, but I gathered that while the basic principles are the same as Chen style, there is an emphasis on visualizing one's intent spatially as the basis for fajing, and the ensuing demonstrations all look rather amazing. There is no talk of Silk Reeling which is the core method in Chen, I wonder whether Silk Reeling accounts for the much more overt displays in Chen Style.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 9, 2014)

I'm in a hurry this morning and I will post more later but
Chen Video 1 is the typical Sanshou + push hands of 20th generation Chen. Find videos of the 19th and it will be different
Yang video 2 is typical no touch qi transfer silliness and not to be taken seriously
Yang Video 3 if you watch really closely he is using Qinna in many places

I will post a vid later of a good Yang push hands that is similar to what you are seeing in Chen


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 9, 2014)

Tung Hu Ling; son of Tung Ying Chieh who was a student of Yang Chengfu






Tung Kai Ying; son of Tung Hu Ling who also trained with his grandfather Tung Ying Chieh


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 9, 2014)

Chen Tai Chi Pushing Hands Feng Zhiqiang





Chen Xiaowang


----------



## pete (Oct 9, 2014)

More importantly, why is it that after more than a year's practice of Tai Chi have you not done any pushing hands?


----------



## zzj (Oct 9, 2014)

Xue Sheng said:


> I'm in a hurry this morning and I will post more later but
> Chen Video 1 is the typical Sanshou + push hands of 20th generation Chen. Find videos of the 19th and it will be different
> Yang video 2 is typical no touch qi transfer silliness and not to be taken seriously
> Yang Video 3 if you watch really closely he is using Qinna in many places
> ...



Thanks for the videos, the push hands are very much in line with realistic applications of internal principles. I just wonder about the minority of videos that border on the no-touch silliness, and I would argue that the 2nd video I posted on GM Huang may not be a clear cut case of such shenanigans unlike let's say Yan Fang of ex-Jingwu Taiji fame or infamy.

For example, the following video of Wei Shuren






How 'real' is the skill being demonstrated?


----------



## zzj (Oct 9, 2014)

pete said:


> More importantly, why is it that after more than a year's practice of Tai Chi have you not done any pushing hands?



It is just the structure of curriculum here, we are expected to have a minimal level of proficiency in the 2 Lao Jia routines prior to starting push hands. I am currently learning er lu (cannon fist).


----------



## zzj (Oct 10, 2014)

zzj said:


> It is just the structure of curriculum here, we are expected to have a minimal level of proficiency in the 2 Lao Jia routines prior to starting push hands. I am currently learning er lu (cannon fist).



Me and my assumptions... I just clarified this matter with my teacher and it would seem that I was wrong about the curriculum. The push hands class is a separate class that I could join if I wanted to, there is no pre requisite to finish the er lu although most of students of the push hands class started only after learning er lu. Well, looks like I'll be starting push hands in a matter of days.


----------



## pete (Oct 10, 2014)

zzj said:


> Me and my assumptions... I just clarified this matter with my teacher and it would seem that I was wrong about the curriculum. The push hands class is a separate class that I could join if I wanted to, there is no pre requisite to finish the er lu although most of students of the push hands class started only after learning er lu. Well, looks like I'll be starting push hands in a matter of days.



That's good!  You'll soon be able to answer your own questions through your experiences, with more meaningful information than you'll ever read on these boards...


----------



## Xue Sheng (Oct 11, 2014)

Chen Zhenglei


----------

