# Sweeps: Are they part of your Kempo?



## Mark L (Jul 2, 2008)

Do you have them in your forms?  Do you emphasize them in any of your techniques?  Do they show up in your students' repertoire when sparring or in free form self defense?   I love 'em, but you have to set it up ...


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## MarkC (Jul 2, 2008)

Yes.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 2, 2008)

The answer is yes, but I feel the need to state that leg hocks are used more than sweeps. I guess it all depends on how you define sweeps.


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## stickarts (Jul 3, 2008)

Definately. Being good at sweeps adds a lot to your fight game and also its important to know how to recognize sweeps and be able to avoid them!
We cover several different sweeps and off balancing techniques.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 3, 2008)

Yes. We put it under the umbrella of shuaijiao, much like *14 Kempo* and *stickarts *have said. The goal: to introduce him to the ground while we're still standing up (not going down with him). The ground never misses, and it's a much tougher opponent for him than I'll ever be.


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## DavidCC (Jul 3, 2008)

what specifically is a sweep, how is it different from a throw or leg hock, or is it?


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## marlon (Jul 3, 2008)

sweeps are all over the place...different from hockdowns and throws.  i love them...learning to recognize them and set them up we do during embu practice (slower free form fighting) pulling them off in sparring requires a great deal of set up timing some madness and luck.  But when it works...!!!

marlon


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## marlon (Jul 3, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> what specifically is a sweep, how is it different from a throw or leg hock, or is it?


 
to me a throw or leg hock reqiures the upper body to 'make' the takedown a sweep is all leg.

marlon


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## Jdokan (Jul 3, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> what specifically is a sweep, how is it different from a throw or leg hock, or is it?


My thoughts are the sweep is typically done without there having to be another part of the body disrupted....Kinda like a quick hockey stick effect.... With the throw or hock I typically have their shoulder, etc in my hands getting pushed/pulled into a specific direction......


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## girlbug2 (Jul 3, 2008)

ah yes, sweeps are a beautiful thing.

On the ends of many techniques I was taught to automatically include either a sweep or some other type of takedown. Without counting I'd say sweeps are appropriate for about 1/3 of the techniques we are taught in American Kenpo.


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## Christina05 (Jul 3, 2008)

girlbug2 said:


> ah yes, sweeps are a beautiful thing.
> 
> On the ends of many techniques I was taught to automatically include either a sweep or some other type of takedown. Without counting I'd say sweeps are appropriate for about 1/3 of the techniques we are taught in American Kenpo.


 

I agree sweeps are a beautiful thing.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 3, 2008)

We have both standing and ground sweeps.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 3, 2008)

That's an interesting point, *Kempojujutsu*, sweeps from when you're prone.  

We used to use those quite a bit in Lau, along with a more wrestling-like 'scissors' kick (opposed blows to the front of the shin and the back of the knee) to give us the opening to get back up.

In Lau also, front leg sweeps were much in evidence, usually followed up by either a punch, grab or rear leg sweep to complete the job i.e. get the opponent to lift their front foot to avoid the sweep and thus put all their weight on the back foot, giving you the opening as their mobility vanishes.  A defence against this was to turn the involuntary foot lift into a kick but if the attacker was expecting this then that just gave them something to catch and pull you about with :lol:.

I can't speak to kenpo, so forgive me for talking about my old style but it's what I can speak on with some surety.


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## stickarts (Jul 3, 2008)

Generally, I see a sweep as taking the opponent completely off of their feet, whereas we also do offbalancing which upsets their balance and technique although they are still standing to some degree.


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## DavidCC (Jul 3, 2008)

If a sweep is a takedown that does not use upper-body leverage, then I wold have to say that I ahve very few of those in the system I practice.  

Combination 11 as we do it uses an ankle pick _after_ striking high, so that might be a sweep although I am not using MY leg.

Combination 26 as we do it also uses high and mid strikes and then uses our hands on his leg/ankle.

but as far as leg vs leg with no upper body control... No, I don't think we have any techniques that use that mechanism.  I have a number of leg sweeps or hocks in techniques but they are always used in conjunction with upper body stuff too.


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## marlon (Jul 3, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> If a sweep is a takedown that does not use upper-body leverage, then I wold have to say that I ahve very few of those in the system I practice.
> 
> Combination 11 as we do it uses an ankle pick _after_ striking high, so that might be a sweep although I am not using MY leg.
> 
> ...


 
most of mine are in the forms and animal / kempo techniques  as for combinations...28, 30 maybe 32 depending on how you have it but it is also very close to 28.  I am defining sweep as a leg to leg thing  sweeping out the leg with your arm like #2  and 11 is not what i am refering to, here.  Although someone could make an arguement for it.  Perhaps the person who started the thread can clarify.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## RevIV (Jul 3, 2008)

marlon said:


> most of mine are in the forms and animal / kempo techniques as for combinations...28, 30 maybe 32 depending on how you have it but it is also very close to 28. I am defining sweep as a leg to leg thing sweeping out the leg with your arm like #2 and 11 is not what i am refering to, here. Although someone could make an arguement for it. Perhaps the person who started the thread can clarify.
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
if we are only talking leg-to-leg and not specific hawk downs and sweeps then the combo's would also have -- 1(hawk),20(hawk),22(sweep), including the ones you said already.


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## 14 Kempo (Jul 3, 2008)

marlon said:


> to me a throw or leg hock reqiures the upper body to 'make' the takedown a sweep is all leg.
> 
> marlon


 
That would be how it was in my mind as well.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 3, 2008)

Never seen a throw, sweep, takedown, hock, whatever you want to call it, that only requires leg movement only. Most of them I have seen, practice requires both leg/hip and upper body displacement. 

I guess if you push someone and they fall down, then you didn't use leg movement. But I wouldn't count that as a throw, sweep, takedown.

I don't get into what is what, when teaching. I use these three terms (throw, sweep and takedown) as a mean of getting someone down on the ground. To me they all mean the same thing. I am sure others have different meanings for all of them.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 3, 2008)

Sweeps are a seperate entity from throws or takedowns in Lau Gar.  They are a technique with the leg alone directed at unsettling the opponents footing.

Is this simply a case that different arts have different 'toolkits' when all is said and done?


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 3, 2008)

MarkC said:


> Yes.


Stealing my answers!


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## Kempojujutsu (Jul 3, 2008)

I have a couple students that are brothers, who I usually pair up in class. The one is about 40 pounds lighter then his brother. He usually tries to do throws with just his leg only. I have to remind him that you must move his upward body so you can use the leg to throw them.


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## Mark L (Jul 4, 2008)

marlon said:


> Perhaps the person who started the thread can clarify.


The takedowns in 28 and 32 are pretty close, though abbreviated forms of the technique's I'm referencing.  Imagine standing on the face of a clock, with your left foot in the center and right foot on the 6.  The forward sweep moves the right foot counterclockwise to attack 12, the reverse sweep moves the right foot clockwise to attack 12.  I get low, almost sitting on my heel when I do these, using my hands on the ground to aid balance.  I shoot for at least 270 degrees of sweep, driving through the target. A combination of the forward, then reverse sweeps (right leg then left leg sweeps) is effective in attacking both the leading and trailing leg of the opponent.

I find these techniques effective in countering high attacks, particularly kicks and spinning techniques.


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## Brother John (Jul 4, 2008)

Sweeps are VERY useful!!
Yes, we practice them and insert them as often as they are applicable.
It's a great advantage to be able to drop someone in some way they didn't intend to go.

Your Brother
John


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## Pacificshore (Jul 4, 2008)

Mark L said:


> Do you have them in your forms?  Do you emphasize them in any of your techniques?  Do they show up in your students' repertoire when sparring or in free form self defense?   I love 'em, but you have to set it up ...


Yes, sweeps are found in our form of Kempo.  To not have any form of sweeps in Kempo/Kenpo is like not having the deep rooted stances in Shotokan


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## MarkC (Jul 4, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> Stealing my answers!



I'm a fast learner....


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## marlon (Jul 4, 2008)

Mark L said:


> The takedowns in 28 and 32 are pretty close, though abbreviated forms of the technique's I'm referencing. Imagine standing on the face of a clock, with your left foot in the center and right foot on the 6. The forward sweep moves the right foot counterclockwise to attack 12, the reverse sweep moves the right foot clockwise to attack 12. I get low, almost sitting on my heel when I do these, using my hands on the ground to aid balance. I shoot for at least 270 degrees of sweep, driving through the target. A combination of the forward, then reverse sweeps (right leg then left leg sweeps) is effective in attacking both the leading and trailing leg of the opponent.
> 
> I find these techniques effective in countering high attacks, particularly kicks and spinning techniques.


 
thanks, then i guess i answered what i thought i was answering  ...    The forms these types of sweep are most easily seen in (at least to my eyes) are nengli and 5 dragons and nunchuku form but they are all over the animal / kempo techniques and the combo'si mentioned.  Training is truth and a sweep is a useful tool.

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Christina05 (Jul 4, 2008)

marlon said:


> to me a throw or leg hock reqiures the upper body to 'make' the takedown a sweep is all leg.
> 
> marlon



What exactly is a leg hock??


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## marlon (Jul 10, 2008)

Christina05 said:


> What exactly is a leg hock??


 

a hock down is when you step behind a person (of course only after you have disrupted thier spinal alignment) place your leg that is closest to them btwn their legs and extended to the front of them. Shift their weight onto their leg closest to you and shift into a horse stance making sure to bring thier upper body downward as you shift.  I know some people do it like a judo throw lifting thier leg to effect the throw but i teach that as a separate throw as i feel different body mechanics are required and a different mis alignment of the attacker is necessary.

Respectfully,
marlon


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