# The Real Karazenpo



## MJS

In another thread regarding a recent seminar with GM Gascon, Danjo made this comment:

"I've seen Brad and Mike do their stuff, as well as their students. If _that's_ original Karazenpo, then there IS no original Karazenpo. I was hoping that someone had actually seen _Sonny_ demonstrate something. Like I said, thanks anyway."

The part that caught my eye was what I underlined. Now, I no longer train in the SKK methods, and my experience with the SKK system was limited to Brown Belt, so my question is...What is the original Karazenpo, if there is in fact something original and how different is what Gascon teaches compared to what is seen in the Villari schools?


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## RevIV

Danjo,
I do not get this comment.  There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju.  There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles?  I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon.  If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.


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## JTKenpo

RevIV said:


> Danjo,
> I do not get this comment. There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju. There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles? I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon. If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.


 

Do we really want to waste our time trying to convince someone about something they have already made their mind up about?  Have we ever seen a positive post that helps or educates us from this person or has it just been put downs and sarcasm?  nuff said for me


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> Danjo,
> I do not get this comment. There has to be an original Karazenpo -- even if it is just a remanipulation of Kaju. There are only so many ways a body can move, so does this mean there is no original Kaju because the system came from already pre-existing styles? I do not believe so myself, I think when the founders put things together they made it theirs, just like Gascon. If i had only one chance to win a million dollars and say who does the original Karazenpo then the answer would be SGM Pesare. Prof. Rash is now a student of Sijo Gascon but his forms are very USSD.


 
You made my point for me in a round about way. Pesare said that he had four forms and a few combinations from Gascon when he left for RI. The rest, was his invention with significant additions by Cerio, Villari etc. When Gascon came "out of retirement" he gave a seminar where the only thing he demonstrated was breakfalls. When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there _is_ no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo." The question has never been definitively answered and everything that I have seen Brad or Mike do was either Kajukenbo or SKK. A manual of the "Original" techniques was supposed to be published back in 2006 by the KGSBBS, but bupkis has come out and now they don't even have that announcement on their websites.

As to the Kaju example you gave, take a look at the original method. It doesn't look like the styles that it came from. If Gascon just re-named what Kajukenbo he had "Karazenpo" then he invented nada. I can call a Smith and Wesson a Colt all day, but it's still a Smith and Wesson.


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## DavidCC

I don't know if it is accurate to call Mike Rash a student of Gascon's since Gascon is retired and not teaching.  Seems to be more of an employee than a student.


""Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo." 

yeah that sounds about right...


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## Danjo

JTKenpo said:


> Do we really want to waste our time trying to convince someone about something they have already made their mind up about? Have we ever seen a positive post that helps or educates us from this person or has it just been put downs and sarcasm? nuff said for me


 
To convince someone, you have to have a convincing argument. Otherwise, you're just telling them to drink kool-aid.

Who are you BTW? Your profile is more than a bit sparse on info.

Edit: Nevermind I found your website.


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## JTKenpo

Danjo said:


> To convince someone, you have to have a convincing argument. Otherwise, you're just telling them to drink kool-aid.
> 
> Who are you BTW? Your profile is more than a bit sparse on info.


 

Chalk up my first response to being a grump *** this morning, not enough coffee, but it really doesn't matter.  Who am I, fair enough question, Kenpo student first, teacher second.  My base is in SKK and AK thats what you are looking for right?


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## Danjo

JTKenpo said:


> Chalk up my first response to being a grump *** this morning, not enough coffee, but it really doesn't matter. Who am I, fair enough question, Kenpo student first, teacher second. My base is in SKK and AK thats what you are looking for right?


 
Like I said in my edit above, I went to your website. Thanks for the reply.


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## RevIV

the ball started rolling with someone, if the forms and a few of the combo's came from Gascon originally then he created the begining.


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> the ball started rolling with someone, if the forms and a few of the combo's came from Gascon originally then he created the begining.


 
Unless they weren't original forms. Or, if Pesare changed them to something entirely different.


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## RevIV

Danjo said:


> Unless they weren't original forms. Or, if Pesare changed them to something entirely different.


 
According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon.  Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon. Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.


 
Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> According to SGM Pesare he teaches the original four pinans (katas) exactly as they were taught to him by Gascon. Unless you can prove to me differently then I will then go with the fact that the original 4 katas were created by Gascon.


 
Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me.  He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him

respectfully,
marlon


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## Danjo

marlon said:


> Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me. He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
That is an argumentative fallacy called and "Ad Hominim" attack. It means that rather than answer the questions, you attack the questioner. In this case, you say that he shouldn't answer the question because you feel that I have unresolved unpleasant experiences with SKK. It seems that the shortest route would be to answer the questions and refute any fallacious assertions that I may have indavertantly made with facts.


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## RevIV

Danjo said:


> Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?


 
They are kata's 1-4 in the SKK but not really.  The essence is there but there were def. changes made by students of SGM Pesare.  Prof. Cerio on down. 5-7 were creations of Pesare - 4 down came from Gascon.
Jesse


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## RevIV

marlon said:


> Jesse, this road with Danjo will just leave you frustrated, trust me. He has his opinion and it is different from ours and the best thing is to leave it at that, he has had some unpleasant experiences with SK that have stayed with him
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon


 
I know where Danjo is coming from. I am very secure on how i learned my Kempo and wish Dan had a similiar experience but he did not.  I have seen Dan's post for years and will try not to get baited.  Dan, I will answer questions on what i know, if you know or believe you know an answer to one of your questions then just say it instead of asking the question.


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## marlon

Danjo said:


> That is an argumentative fallacy called and "Ad Hominim" attack. It means that rather than answer the questions, you attack the questioner. In this case, you say that he shouldn't answer the question because you feel that I have unresolved unpleasant experiences with SKK. It seems that the shortest route would be to answer the questions and refute any fallacious assertions that I may have indavertantly made with facts.


 

for the record been there done that with  you Danjo.  I am glad you are enjoying your kajukenbo instruction

marlon


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## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?


 
Told by who?  Why do you believe they were correct?


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## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> Told by who? Why do you believe they were correct?


 
Joe Shuras said that Pesare had changed the forms and combo's and showed his high ranking black belts the original way they were performed once in a workout. I don't know why he'd lie about that.

My point is that if the forms SKK does now have been altered by Pesare, then they're not what Gascon taught. If Gascon taught Kajukenbo forms to Pesare, then they are Kajukenbo, not Karazenpo even if he changed the names of them. If Gascon is not teaching the "Original" Karazenpo anymore because he doesn't remember it. Then the only record we WOULD have of Karazenpo are the forms and combos he taught Pesare.

Now, even if those four forms are still basically the same as taught to Pesare, and the combinations can be re-constructed, then we have a very small existing curriculum for Karazenpo. Four forms and a handfull of combinations don't really give much material for an entire system that has so many highly ranked black belts and representatives.


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## Jdokan

Danjo said:


> Which 4 are those? I was told that he totally changed Kata's 1-4. Are they the same as 1-4 in SKK?


Danjo Have you seen both sets of these forms  ( I guess if they were truely different than my question becomes mute...)?  I'd be interested in your take....As a West Coast Guy you seem to have better opportunity to witness some of our "older" (sorry guys) MA's....


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## Danjo

Jdokan said:


> Danjo Have you seen both sets of these forms ( I guess if they were truely different than my question becomes mute...)? I'd be interested in your take....As a West Coast Guy you seem to have better opportunity to witness some of our "older" (sorry guys) MA's....


 
Well, I know what the Kaju forms look like for sure and I've seen many variations of them depending on the instructor and the method being taught. I also have a brown belt in SKK so I know the forms that are being attributed to Gascon. Shuras described some of the combinations to me in their original form that he got from Pesare, and they have been changed drastically. I've seen Namahoe's students at tournaments doing forms and they are basically Kajukenbo and have no resemblence to the SKK forms. Mike Rash demonstrated a form for Chris Geary's guys, and it was pretty much Heian Shodan, so that didn't tell us much one way or the other.

So once again, did Sonny Gas merely teach Kajukenbo, and thus invent nothing?

I'm looking for some evidence that Gascon ever did anything original. From everything I've seen if it was Kaju that he taught, then he certainly had nothing to do with inventing that. And if Pesare only got a small handfull of forms and combos that he significantly altered and then created the rest of the system himself, then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon. Gascon would merely have been Pesare's first MA instructor.

I'm more open to being proven wrong than you folks might think. So if there is some evidence that Gascon created an original system somewhere, I'm all for looking at it.


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## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon.


 
I think some of the difficulty in communication here is the blurring of the lines between shaolin kempo and karazenpo.

The "Sijo" (is that a real word?) of Shaolin kempo is Fred Villari.  he made it up based on everything he knew at the time.  Does some of it resemble Cerio's Kenpo?  yes.  Does Cerios kenpo resemble Pesare's kenpo?  Yes.  Does Pesare's kempo resemble karazenpo? That seems to be the Danjo's question here.

It seems to me that karazenpo (today) is an organization, not a style. Was it a style at some time?  Yes, I think so, but Sonny Gascon's lineage did not continue, except for Pesare, who was completely out of contact with Gascon for many, many years.  Corrigan 'found' Gascon and 'used' him as a lightning rod to draw together the fragmented groups that came from Pesare, Cerio, Villari, & Mattera - unsuccessfully, mostly.  Sonny Gascon is just a nice old Hawaiian dude who used to teach kajukenbo until his cousins started squeezing him for the vig - 40 years later I think he was surprised that anyone even knew his name, and now he's so happy to be so much more than just a retired mechanic.  Ohana!

This whole branch is nothing but bastards anyway _(quit killing kenny!)_  Get a little rank and go your own way; find some knowledge somewhere, glue it on the side of it, and sign up some students.  It's a mutt, heinz 57, frankenstein - always has been, and always will be.  We are all our own sijos.

I have Pesare's kempo history DVD and the Kata as executed on that video are not that different than what I am doing today.


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## RevIV

Im good with that.  SGM Pesare is the founder of Kempo in New England.  pretty much no one can take that from him. If he had to modify what he did to make it work for him and his students that is fine.  I was told by him that the forms he taught were the ones originally taught to him.  I believe Matt was at the same seminar when he said this, and so was Joe Shuras.  I will ask him at my next private lesson.  Danjo, did you ever get the DVD put out by Pesare circa 60?
Jesse


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## Flying Crane

Danjo said:


> Four forms and a handfull of combinations don't really give much material for an entire system that has so many highly ranked black belts and representatives.


 
Have you ever seen Wing Chun?


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## RevIV

I do not know what Combo's SGM Pesare created or brought back from Gascon, but I just scanned through his circa 60 dvd again real quick and i saw combo's
1,2,3,4,5,9,11,13,15,16,26.  Just thought I would share.


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## Danjo

RevIV said:


> I do not know what Combo's SGM Pesare created or brought back from Gascon, but I just scanned through his circa 60 dvd again real quick and i saw combo's
> 1,2,3,4,5,9,11,13,15,16,26. Just thought I would share.


 
That dvd goes way beyond 1960 if I recall when I watched it. #4 combo is virtually the same as #6 punch counter in Kaju, so I'm sure he learned that one from Gascon.


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## Danjo

Flying Crane said:


> Have you ever seen Wing Chun?


 
Good point.


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## Danjo

Here's an example of what Shuras told me about the original #3 combination for instance. Notice how radically Pesare changed what he got from Gascon to what there is now.:

"
*Dan, I almost forgot. There was no soft inward block in SK's original #3, that was improvised probaly because of inexpereinced ukes 'following' you with the punch. Now, it seems to have been adopted as standard.*

*Here's the orignal #3 as taught to George Pesare by Sonny Gascon. You're fighting two people. One in front and one behind. The one behind grabs you arms pinned (bear hug from behind), the one in front punches to your head. You duck and immediately punch, front two knuckle to groin and you're in a kneeling stance, right knee kneeling but not touching the floor. The drop down called 'duck & punch' releases the bear hug and the left elbow shoots to elbow position as a strike to the rear as you simultaneously punch the groin.. You then straighten back up with a cup & saucer (left fist over right fist) which is a full power elbow to the rear. Next, from that position you throw a right boxing uppercut to your opponent's jaw who was bent over from the blow to the groin, cross and cover, checking both downed opponents. "Joe""*


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## John Bishop

Actually, I just had this conversation with George Pesare last month.  I had bought his DVD of 60's New England Kempo, and he wanted my critique of what he was doing then.   

Mr. Pesare and myself have been corresponding  back and forth for 21 years now.  Over the years he has sent me many documents (tournament flyers, school flyers, news clippings, etc) from the 60's on.   
When I first contacted Mr. Pesare around 1987, he was not aware of who Sonny Gascon had trained under.  He simply knew that Gascon was teaching something he called "Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu" and it was a "kenpo" system.  And that at times Bill Ryusaki would assist in the classes.  He also had not had any contact with Gascon since the mid 60's, and asked if I could put him in touch with "Victor Gascon".  I did attempt to do this, but I was informed by my connections in Hawaii that, "Sonny Gascon was no longer involved in the martial arts, and did not want to be associated with the martial arts".

Around 1990-91, I wrote a kenpo article for "Inside Karate" magazine in which I included a kenpo family tree.  According to all the people who contacted me as a result of the article, it was the first time anyone in New England had heard that they had a lineage that went back to Kajukenbo.  

According to Gascon, Mr. Pesare only trained with him for 2 months.  Mr. Pesare has not denied this statement.  But I find it hard to believe that he learned 4 katas and a handful of defensive combinations in just 2 months.  

Now back to the "1960's Kempo in New England" DVD.   When Mr. Pesare asked what I thought about the techniques, I gave him a honest answer.   The training methods/workouts appeared to be old school hardcore training, but I was personally disappointed that I didn't see more resemblance to Kajukenbo, since Gascon had trained with John Leoning.  
The "original 4 pinans" had no resemblance to the first four Kajukenbo katas, and I only recognized 2 combinations as variations of "Grab Art 15", and "Punch Counter 6".  
I also told him that the heavy use of open hand strikes, high kicks, and jumping kicks, was not something common in Kajukenbo.  He agreed, and said that much of what is on the DVD was of his design.  
You have to realize that even though Mr. Pesare calls his system "Kempo", he trained far more in tae kwon do, judo, and other arts, then he did in Karazenpo.  

Whether it sounds good for historical reference or not, nobody today would know who Sonny Gascon was if it wasn't for George Pesare.  You can probably count on one hand the number of "Karazenpo" people who do not have a lineage to George Pesare.  George Pesare is a exceptional martial artist who has taught and learned various martial arts for close to 50 years.  He deserves ALL the credit for the kempo that has originated from New England.


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## marlon

Danjo said:


> Well, I know what the Kaju forms look like for sure and I've seen many variations of them depending on the instructor and the method being taught. I also have a brown belt in SKK so I know the forms that are being attributed to Gascon. Shuras described some of the combinations to me in their original form that he got from Pesare, and they have been changed drastically. I've seen Namahoe's students at tournaments doing forms and they are basically Kajukenbo and have no resemblence to the SKK forms. Mike Rash demonstrated a form for Chris Geary's guys, and it was pretty much Heian Shodan, so that didn't tell us much one way or the other.
> 
> So once again, did Sonny Gas merely teach Kajukenbo, and thus invent nothing?
> 
> I'm looking for some evidence that Gascon ever did anything original. From everything I've seen if it was Kaju that he taught, then he certainly had nothing to do with inventing that. And if Pesare only got a small handfull of forms and combos that he significantly altered and then created the rest of the system himself, then HE, not Gascon, is the true "Sijo" of SKK and the like, not Gascon. Gascon would merely have been Pesare's first MA instructor.
> 
> I'm more open to being proven wrong than you folks might think. So if there is some evidence that Gascon created an original system somewhere, I'm all for looking at it.


 


from my understanding Sonny Gascone did not create anything new but for political reasons called his system karazempo.  I am fine with this. as for the rest of it.  I had and have my issues with the way Villari did things however, skk has proven itself to me many times over and against other arts.  So as for the rest of it it is history, nothing more and nothing less.  I think it is best to look at history only with the intention to move forward.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## DavidCC

www.kgsbbs.com said:
			
		

> *Sonny made a guest appearance and performed Karazenpo during a taping of   Dick Clark s American Bandstand at recreation park in Burbank California. In this early episode Sonny, Richard Limo Tanaka and others can be seen doing all the "original" dances.*




If we got a copy of that episode, I guess you could say you were seeing original karazenpo.


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## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> [/b]
> 
> If we got a copy of that episode, I guess you could say you were seeing original karazenpo.


 

I thought of that too. Unfortunately I have no way of getting that episode unless we knew what date it was broadcast.


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## John Bishop

marlon said:


> from my understanding Sonny Gascone did not create anything new but for political reasons called his system karazempo.  I am fine with this.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



I have also heard that.  But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.  
I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.   
They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's", which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools.   Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.


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## marlon

John Bishop said:


> I have also heard that. But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.
> I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.
> They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's", which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools. Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.


 
in the end ... there seems to be no way to 'know'. My stance is that therre is a connection through Prof. Chow and there are major changes / differences..we are still the same ohana

respectfully,
marlon


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## John Bishop

marlon said:


> in the end ... there seems to be no way to 'know'. My stance is that therre is a connection through Prof. Chow and there are major changes / differences..we are still the same ohana
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



Yes, I would agree that Chow may be one of the keys.  I know Leoning students (Al Rimando, Carlos Bunda) who were senior to Gascon, and Leoning students who were there with and after Gascon (Doug Bunda, Rick Kingi).  They learned the same techniques and forms from Leoning, and teach them today.  And they're not the same as the one's on Mr. Pasare's DVD.  
But, like I said Bill Ryusaki had shotokan training, and also trained with Chow's student Bill Chun Sr.  And Walter Godin was senior to Gascon and had training from Joe Emperado, and William Chow.
But again, Mr. Pasare trained in tae kwon do long enough to get a black belt, so I'm sure he was adept at the Okinawan Pinan katas.  
Another thing to note is Eugene Sedeno was a student of Walter Godin's during his Karazenpo years and after.  And all during this time Eugene learned Kajukenbo techniques, not what is on the Pesare DVD.  We've got a lot of Kajukenbo film from the 60's, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD.  John Leoning Jr. has film from his fathers first school in Kalihi, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD.  
Peter Robinson, (who is a member here) opened a Leoning branch school in Conn. around 1964.  He said when he saw Pesare's students perform at a tournament in New England he did not see what he recognized as techniques Leoning taught.  He was surprised because he expected to see simularities, since Gascon had trained under Leoning.  When he moved back to California in the 90's he visited GM Rick Kingi's school in L.A., and was happy to see the same techniques that he had learned from Leoning in the late 50's-early 60's. 
So somewhere between Gascon and Pesare, there were changes.


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## DavidCC

Danjo said:


> I thought of that too. Unfortunately I have no way of getting that episode unless we knew what date it was broadcast.


 
After some time searhcing through AB information on the web, I discovered that AB did not move to California until 1964, so it is unlikely that they taped a MA demo in Burbank in 61.  I went through a complete episode guide with list of guest stars and interviewees from 61-67 (after SG moved back to Hawaii) and found no mention of it.  However there were a good number of episodes that were incomplete on the web site I was viewing so it is difficult to say for sure.


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## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> After some time searhcing through AB information on the web, I discovered that AB did not move to California until 1964, so it is unlikely that they taped a MA demo in Burbank in 61. I went through a complete episode guide with list of guest stars and interviewees from 61-67 (after SG moved back to Hawaii) and found no mention of it. However there were a good number of episodes that were incomplete on the web site I was viewing so it is difficult to say for sure.


 
Plus, who knows if they even have the show correct? Or, perhaps they were confusing Gascon with Leoning or Aleju Reyes again. I remember them claiming that Gascon was asked to be head judge at the Internationals, but it was actually Reyes that had that position. Too many stories with too little corroboration.


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## marlon

John Bishop said:


> Yes, I would agree that Chow may be one of the keys. I know Leoning students (Al Rimando, Carlos Bunda) who were senior to Gascon, and Leoning students who were there with and after Gascon (Doug Bunda, Rick Kingi). They learned the same techniques and forms from Leoning, and teach them today. And they're not the same as the one's on Mr. Pasare's DVD.
> But, like I said Bill Ryusaki had shotokan training, and also trained with Chow's student Bill Chun Sr. And Walter Godin was senior to Gascon and had training from Joe Emperado, and William Chow.
> But again, Mr. Pasare trained in tae kwon do long enough to get a black belt, so I'm sure he was adept at the Okinawan Pinan katas.
> Another thing to note is Eugene Sedeno was a student of Walter Godin's during his Karazenpo years and after. And all during this time Eugene learned Kajukenbo techniques, not what is on the Pesare DVD. We've got a lot of Kajukenbo film from the 60's, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD. John Leoning Jr. has film from his fathers first school in Kalihi, and it's not the same as Pesare's DVD.
> Peter Robinson, (who is a member here) opened a Leoning branch school in Conn. around 1964. He said when he saw Pesare's students perform at a tournament in New England he did not see what he recognized as techniques Leoning taught. He was surprised because he expected to see simularities, since Gascon had trained under Leoning. When he moved back to California in the 90's he visited GM Rick Kingi's school in L.A., and was happy to see the same techniques that he had learned from Leoning in the late 50's-early 60's.
> So somewhere between Gascon and Pesare, there were changes.


 
i would love to see soemof these techniques!!  I can say that the form demonstrated on Pesare's dvd was done with a much more shotokan 'rhythm' than the way i learned it....here's a question:  How would you bring a more kaju flavour to sk, master Bishop, as we discuss ity here on MT, not as shown on the Villari DVD's

respectfully,
Marlon


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## John Bishop

Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)











Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin


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## stickarts

Very cool!


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## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> I have also heard that. But, if the techniques on Mr. Pasare's 60's DVD really are the techniques he was taught by Gascon, then Gascon did make major changes.
> I am a Kajukenbo black belt from the John Leoning/Bill Ryusaki lineage, and I do not recognize those forms as the one's being taught by the first generation students of John Leoning, or any Kajukenbo lineage.
> *They do resemble the Okinawan "Pinan's",* which were also taught in many early Tae Kwon Do schools. Another possibility is the fact that Bill Ryusaki was also a shotokan black belt, and Mr. Pasare told me that Bill Ryusaki was a assistant instructor for Gascon at times.


 
I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare)  They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage.  Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?


----------



## John Bishop

RevIV said:


> I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare)  They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage.  Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?



Versions of the Okinawan Pinans are done in many systems.  The Shotokan versions are called Heian's.  The tae kwon do and tang soo do versions keep the Pinan name.  All of these versions are very identical in movement, even though there may be slight changes in stance work, snap, power, hand positioning.  
One example is the Shotokan Heian's use "back stances" where the Okinawan styles use "cat stances".  Some Heian's use a knife hand block, where the Korean versions use a knife hand strike.  But either way, 70-80% of the movements, strikes, stances, and blocks are the same from the Okinawan style Pinan, Shotokan Heian, and tae kwon do and tang soo do Pinan.
The Kajukenbo Pinan's (now called Palama Sets) with the exception of #13 do not resemble any of the Pinan's, or Heian's practiced in any of the Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Karazenpo, or Shaolin Kenpo systems. 
So like I said before.  Either Gascon or Mr. Pesare changed the Kajukenbo forms that John Leoning had taught Gascon.


----------



## Danjo

RevIV said:


> I by all means do not know all the "Okinawan "Pinan's", but the ones that i do know do not look like SGM Pesare's Kats's (called pinan's by SGM Pesare) They do closely resemble the Pinans of Villari's. Heien Sandan, Yondan and Godan are almost identical to 3,4,5 pinan in the Villari lineage. Or were you refering to their Karate snap and power?


 
The Pinan kata that Shaolin Kempo have were added to the system by Nick Cerio from a book by Mas Oyama. Villari just kept them. 

Pesare's dvd shows them doing "Statue/Stature of the Crane" which was a derivation of Rohai. On the dvd he also says that he added other forms and altered them from their Okinawan/Japanese versions.

The forms he calls Pinans are what SKK calls "Kata". I notice that Pesare talked about training in Bill Ryusaki's back yard, so I wonder how much of his instruction came from him? Certainly the term "Kumite" that Pesare uses probably came from Shotokan, since we don't use it in Kajukenbo.


----------



## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> Versions of the Okinawan Pinans are done in many systems. The Shotokan versions are called Heian's. The tae kwon do and tang soo do versions keep the Pinan name. All of these versions are very identical in movement, even though there may be slight changes in stance work, snap, power, hand positioning.
> One example is the Shotokan Heian's use "back stances" where the Okinawan styles use "cat stances". Some Heian's use a knife hand block, where the Korean versions use a knife hand strike. But either way, 70-80% of the movements, strikes, stances, and blocks are the same from the Okinawan style Pinan, Shotokan Heian, and tae kwon do and tang soo do Pinan.
> The Kajukenbo Pinan's (now called Palama Sets) with the exception of #13 do not resemble any of the Pinan's, or Heian's practiced in any of the Japanese, Okinawan, Korean, Karazenpo, or Shaolin Kenpo systems.
> So like I said before. Either Gascon or Mr. Pesare changed the Kajukenbo forms that John Leoning had taught Gascon.


 
Thank you, I understand that, but i do not understand where you think that SGM Pesare's Kata's resemble the Heian's.  I have learned Palama 1 and the flow is very similiar to that of Pesares Kata's.  As for Nick Cerio and Villari's Pinans and Cat forms I can see where you are coming from on them looking like Shotokan.  Palama 1 has the double elbows back and then step through Left punch, 1 kata (Pesare way) also has this double elbow set. "X" blocks in both forms, sweep techniques both forms. 
I may be wrong on this one, but i believe Palama 2 has a lot of scoop blocks in defense to kicks and strikes to the groin - that exact move is at the end of SGM Pesare's 2 Pinan (kata)


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## John Bishop

As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning.  The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.  

Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)





SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)


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## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.
> 
> Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)


 
Thats a nice pinan 3 from Leoning, as for the SKK one-- never seen that version.  not even close to ours.  I have seen that person do other forms and none of them resemble ours. thank you for the vid. links


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## John Bishop

Your welcome.  Sometime today I'll put up Pinan 1 and 2 as taught by Sijo Emperado.  (For those who don't know, the 14 katas of the Original Method of Kajukenbo were first named "Pinan's", or "Pinions", or "Pinyons" depending on who was pronouncing it.  The Filipino Hawaiians normally pronounced it "Pin Yoan".  Others pronounced it "pin yun".  In 1993 the name was changed to "Palama Sets" since the katas were distinct to the Kajukenbo system. )


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## John Bishop

RevIV said:


> I have seen that person do other forms and none of them resemble ours. thank you for the vid. links



Yea, lot of that going around.  Especially from people who have been cross ranked. See it in all systems.


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## JTKenpo

John Bishop said:


> As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.
> 
> Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)


 

I don't know what lineage this skk kata 3 is from but it is not what is being done in new england as skk kata 3.


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## 14 Kempo

JTKenpo said:


> I don't know what lineage this skk kata 3 is from but it is not what is being done in new england as skk kata 3.


 
Nor is it being done that way on the West Coast.


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## DavidCC

I have to agree, that "Kata 3" is nothing at all like the SKK that came from Villari line.  There is a large group in Eurpoe using the name "Shaolin kempo" that has nothing to do with Villari; that might be the source of it.

I found the kata 3 from USSD here.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=PCE_0SgMCMU&feature=related

Still, very different than kajukenbo's

here is USSD pinan 3, which should bear some resemblance to ryukyu's "pinan sandan"
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3inLNXK9pG4


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## John Bishop

Kajukenbo Pinan (Palama Set) 1 and 2


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## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> Yea, lot of that going around. Especially from people who have been cross ranked. See it in all systems.


 
Well being a person who has graciously cross ranked in two Kempo systems, I am more than appreciative to being able to see both sides of the story.  Helps me develop what I want to teach,  kindof like taking the best of many styles and training and teaching a combination of what you feel is best for yourself and students.


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## John Bishop

RevIV said:


> Well being a person who has graciously cross ranked in two Kempo systems, I am more than appreciative to being able to see both sides of the story.  Helps me develop what I want to teach,  kindof like taking the best of many styles and training and teaching a combination of what you feel is best for yourself and students.



It's all about knowledge.  There are people who cross rank and put great effort into learning their new system.  There fore becoming better martial artists.
And there are those who just change their patch, make no effort to learn the new system, and just call their old stuff by the new name.  That's what hurts a system.


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## LawDog

Ref. post #45.
I have never seen that version of SKK Kata #3.


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## LawDog

Ref. post #51.
I have seen this version of kata #3  and pinon #3. They were not done well but they do represent the late 70's - 80's versions.


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## almost a ghost

John Bishop said:


> As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a
> SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)



I've seen this a lot of youtube. You will find a lot of clips labeled "Shaolin Kempo" from Europe and South America that have no relation to the what North America calls Shaolin Kempo. I thought for a while they were just using Shaolin instead of Shorinji, but that theory didn't last long.


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> Kajukenbo Pinan (Palama Set) 1 and 2


 
thank you for these.  the 1 pinian is almost exactly like the one i learned from Costa when i was able to study some kajukenbo here in Montreal,however, his 2 pinian was different.  the 2 pinian is very much like Prof. Kimo's 2 pinian.  Again, thankl you for sharing

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> As a example here is Pinan 3 as taught by a direct student of John Leoning. The Kajukenbo Pinan or Palama Set 3 has no forward or rearward movements, unlike the Pinan 3 in Mr. Pesare's DVD.
> 
> Pinan 3 (Leoning lineage)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> SKK Kata 3 (Don't know how close this is to the Cerio and Villari versions)


 

the Leoning 3 pinian is very similar to Prof.Kimo's but the kata 3 is nothing like i have seen in skk

respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin


 

i find that in the Gaylord and Godin stuff i can see skk fairly clearly.  i love the fast and furious finishes (that afre signature of Prof.Chow) we do not do that so much in sk...anymore...  
REspectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon

John Bishop said:


> Some Grab Arts, free sparring, and Punch Counters (Mostly white belts)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Charles Gaylord and Walter Godin


 

thank you for these.  I can see fairly clearly in the Gaylord and Godin stuff many close similarities with skk.  I love the fast and furious finishes (signature of Prof. chow i think) that we do not see in skk so much...any more...   

Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## John Bishop

To confuse things even more, these are supposed to be Karazenpo Katas 4, 3, 2, & 1.  They look like CHA-3 katas.
These are students of Brad Namahoe, who started in CHA-3, then Kajukenbo, then Karazenpo.


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## MarkC

I used to know some CHA-3 guys many years ago, and they did something that looked very much like this.


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## RevIV

John Bishop said:


> To confuse things even more, these are supposed to be Karazenpo Katas 4, 3, 2, & 1. They look like CHA-3 katas.
> These are students of Brad Namahoe, who started in CHA-3, then Kajukenbo, then Karazenpo.


 
those seem to be more Kajukenbo


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## 14 Kempo

RevIV said:


> those seem to be more Kajukenbo


 
I thought the same, I definately saw parts of the Palama Sets in there. But then again, it all has the same root.


----------



## DavidCC

So where's all the SKK people today?  

I would have thought this would get SOME reaction.  We're just a little midwest school but ...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65882


----------



## LawDog

:cheers::cheers:


----------



## 14 Kempo

DavidCC said:


> So where's all the SKK people today?
> 
> I would have thought this would get SOME reaction. We're just a little midwest school but ...
> 
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65882


 
Tried to PM you, David, but your inbox is full!!!

Congratulations!


----------



## DavidCC

14 Kempo said:


> Tried to PM you, David, but your inbox is full!!!
> 
> Congratulations!


 
Yah got a bit of traffic lately 

s/b clear now, and I'll make sure you can email me thru the site as well.  I look forward to hearing from you.

-D


----------



## marlon

Master Bishop,
if i were to drop the 6 pinans i teach and replace them with kajukenbo forms, which ones would you suggest that would best serve sk students?

\
respectfully,
Marlon


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## John Bishop

marlon said:


> Master Bishop,



Thanks for the sign of respect, but I like being called John around here.



marlon said:


> if i were to drop the 6 pinans i teach and replace them with kajukenbo forms, which ones would you suggest that would best serve sk students?
> 
> \
> respectfully,
> Marlon



If I'm understanding the SKK curriculum right, your Pinans are actually similar to the Okinawan/Japanese Pinans/Heians?  And your numbered "katas" are similar to the Karazenpo "Pinans"?  
If this is true, your "Pinans" are good training tools for teaching the basics to students at the beginning and intermediate levels.  That's why variations of these katas are practiced by most of the major Okinawan and Japanese systems.  

With intermediate to advanced students ,I personally don't spend a lot of time teaching katas, and just about none teaching application.  I will explain what the techniques are, and point them out when they appear in various "punch counters", "grab arts" etc.  But I prefer working techniques with a partner, and live training via sparring and grappling.   
I do feel that katas serve a purpose in teaching beginning to intermediate students basics.  And they also help improve movement, balance, and co-ordination.  Those things that should be developed before any live training takes place.  

The 14 Kajukenbo katas were developed in 3 phases.  There were originally 8 katas.  Then 9, 10, 11, and  12 were added.  The last two katas were #13, and 14.  Those schools who know the history of the 14 katas, know that 13 and 14 were added to be beginners forms.  So they teach 14 first, and some teach 13 second.  The are numbered 13 and 14 because that was the order they were added to the system.  
#14 is a expansion of the drill called the "clock dance".  (I know there's a lot of disagreement as to whether kenpo has Okinawan or Japanese roots.  But most of the old time Hawaiians believe that it came from Okinawa, and that is why they sometimes call katas "dances", "monkey dances", etc. A whole other topic.)  

I would not be comfortable telling anyone one what katas they should adopt from Kajukenbo.  Or even suggesting they adopt any of our katas.  But I will list the Kajukenbo katas that I would keep if I was asked to only teach 6.

_Palama Set 14_ is a very good beginners kata.  
It teaches stepping in and out at angles (we use the numbers on the clock to denote the angle, instead of 45 degrees, 90 degrees ext.  Hence "clock dance").  
It teaches forward and backward stepping.  
It teaches the "horse", "forward", "kneeling", and "cat" stance.  
It teaches the "up", "outward", "bent wrist", and "inward" blocks.  It teaches the "front snap" and "front thrust" kicks, and also the lunge punch. 
_
Palama Set 1_ is again a good beginners kata.  It teaches "outward", "downward", "inward", and "X" blocks.  Introduces students to "hand strikes" combined with "checks", and also "elbow" strikes.

I like _Palama Set 4 _because it teaches simultaneous blocking and striking, with a emphasis on developing hand speed.  
This kata is practiced in a stationary horse stance.  The goal is after the sequence of techniques is learned, to do it faster and faster.  With good form of course.  

_Palama Set 8_  helps develop good kicks, balance, and strong legs.  We really don't do jumping kicks in any of our self defense combinations.  But practicing them in this kata, and line work helps develop leg strength and explosive speed off the line.  

_Palama Set 9_ has some of the Chinese influence of the system.  Nice usage of open hand techniques in the form of palm strikes, grabs, and chops. 

_Palama Set 11_ (Dance of Death)  is a variation of "Naihanchi Shodan", the main form taught in the Mitose and Chow schools.  It is also the form performed at Kajukenbo/Hawaiian Kenpo funerals.  So it has some historical significance.


----------



## marlon

And, i have naihanchi kata from soke Cuevas. Thank you John,
i appreciate many many of the points in your response.  I am still deciding and discussing it with my teacher.  A few years ago i learn 13 and 14 from Costa, in that order and i have learned 3 of Prof.Kimo's katas which look very much like some of the kaju katas you shared with us.  I very much appreciate the break down you offered.  I like the pinians so i may keep them however, it does seem more apporpriate to use the beginner forms that are more in line with SK and since Shihan is the inheritor of Prof. kimo's system and our roots are from Prof.Chow...it seems a logical move.
thanks for sharing

Respectfully,
marlon


----------



## KENPOJOE

MJS said:


> In another thread regarding a recent seminar with GM Gascon, Danjo made this comment:
> 
> "I've seen Brad and Mike do their stuff, as well as their students. If _that's_ original Karazenpo, then there IS no original Karazenpo. I was hoping that someone had actually seen _Sonny_ demonstrate something. Like I said, thanks anyway."
> 
> The part that caught my eye was what I underlined. Now, I no longer train in the SKK methods, and my experience with the SKK system was limited to Brown Belt, so my question is...What is the original Karazenpo, if there is in fact something original and how different is what Gascon teaches compared to what is seen in the Villari schools?


 
Hi folks!
I saw this post on another thread and thought I'd address it here first.
I, for one, have seen Sijo Gascon move and have been taught techniques by him. I have also seen him demonstrate techniques on others [Prof. Rash and others]. I have seen him demonstrate techniques that are a direct correlation to kenpo karate/Shaolin Kempo techniques that I was taught in the past, as well as direct correllation to certain American Kenpo techniques i've learned as well. I have placed video clips on youtube to confirm that.
I can personally assure you,danjo, and anyone else that Victor Gascon still has a good grasp of the style he created. He is simply happy that people are still carrying on the art of of his lineage in some form and/or fashion. That is the wonderful positive message he brings with him everywhere he goes.
There is obviously an "Original" Karazenpo Goshinjutsu, just as there was an "original" kajukenbo or American Kenpo. However, in many cases, it was improved upon over time.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE
Massachusetts co-vice president
Karazenpo Goshinjutsu


----------



## KENPOJOE

Danjo said:


> You made my point for me in a round about way. Pesare said that he had four forms and a few combinations from Gascon when he left for RI. The rest, was his invention with significant additions by Cerio, Villari etc. When Gascon came "out of retirement" he gave a seminar where the only thing he demonstrated was breakfalls. When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there _is_ no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo." The question has never been definitively answered and everything that I have seen Brad or Mike do was either Kajukenbo or SKK. A manual of the "Original" techniques was supposed to be published back in 2006 by the KGSBBS, but bupkis has come out and now they don't even have that announcement on their websites.
> 
> As to the Kaju example you gave, take a look at the original method. It doesn't look like the styles that it came from. If Gascon just re-named what Kajukenbo he had "Karazenpo" then he invented nada. I can call a Smith and Wesson a Colt all day, but it's still a Smith and Wesson.


 
Hi folks!
Dear Mr. Weston,
I was reading your post and a few interesting points came to mind:
1. You state "When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there _is_ no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo."
If i were to follow your logic on this point,then you state that if Adriano Emerado was to watch a demo of CHA3,Kakenbo,Chuanfa,Tumpai, & wun hop kuen do & He [Emerado] stated "It's all Kajukenbo" according to your logic, there would be no kajukenbo?
If someone, rather, had said, as I did, "Sijo, if we demonstrate some of our material for you, would you be so kind as to stop us when you see something familiar so that we can gain from your knowledge?", then, if he TRUSTED you, because as you are well aware, there are many naysayers who have nothing good to say and never give a positive comment on a particular subject [HINT!]Then he would definitely be leary [rhymes with geary] to share information with them.
I'm sure that over the passage of time some information may have been forgotten,however, if you eneter with a positive attitude and an open mind, information will be shared. I'm sure there were times in sijo emperado's life where he got sick of the negativity in his own style and just didn't want to deal with you guys at times. 
Things change,people change. Projects are passed to others and take time to be correctly written down and elaborated upon in print. I have started a series of short instructional video clips on youtube to give some insight into the karazenpo goshinjutsu art and it's influences. I light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
As far as your comment about Karazenpo not looking like kajukenbo, it must be hard to see the forest with all those TREES in the way.
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


----------



## John Bishop

DavidCC said:


> I think some of the difficulty in communication here is the blurring of the lines between shaolin kempo and karazenpo.
> 
> The "Sijo" (is that a real word?) of Shaolin kempo is Fred Villari.  he made it up based on everything he knew at the time.  Does some of it resemble Cerio's Kenpo?  yes.  Does Cerios kenpo resemble Pesare's kenpo?  Yes.  Does Pesare's kempo resemble karazenpo? That seems to be the Danjo's question here.
> 
> It seems to me that karazenpo (today) is an organization, not a style. Was it a style at some time?  Yes, I think so, but Sonny Gascon's lineage did not continue, except for Pesare, who was completely out of contact with Gascon for many, many years.  Corrigan 'found' Gascon and 'used' him as a lightning rod to draw together the fragmented groups that came from Pesare, Cerio, Villari, & Mattera - unsuccessfully, mostly.  Sonny Gascon is just a nice old Hawaiian dude who used to teach kajukenbo until his cousins started squeezing him for the vig - 40 years later I think he was surprised that anyone even knew his name, and now he's so happy to be so much more than just a retired mechanic.  Ohana!




_"It's good to have you back braddah.  But where you been the last 30 years?" _ Ted Tabura to Sonny Gascon

To do any in depth research into the Karazenpo history, you have to look at So. Calif. during the 60's.  What happened to the early students after Gascon quit teaching?  And who are the current leaders in the organization?
When Gascon quit teaching he only had a handful of students (5-10).  Those who stayed in the martial arts like Julian Generalao, joined Kajukenbo schools and learned and taught Kajukenbo.  Julian (aka General, Prof. Blue) trained with Allen Abad, Gary Forbach, and others in the San Diego area.  He taught Kajukenbo, and his black belts who started schools taught Kajukenbo.  One being his nephew, Al Cablay.  After getting his black belt, Al trained with me off and on, until he moved out of the area.  
When Gascon came out of retirement, Generalao rejoined him and was given a high rank.  He has passed away recently.
Now look at today's organization.
If you think Mike Rash's techniques look like SKK, your absolutely right.  But it's not because that's the "Original Karazenpo".  Rash was a shorin ryu black belt who joined the Villari organization here in So. Cal. and trained under Bill Mailman.  Before he joined Gascon, he ran a SKK branch school under Mailman in Anaheim, Ca.  
If you think Brad Namahoe's techniques look like Kajukenbo, your right.  Brad trained in Hawaii under Rudy Orlando, a CHA-3 black belt.  In the early 90's, Orlando joined the Kajukenbo organization and Brad did also.  Brad went up to 6th degree under Orlando.  About 4-5 years ago Brad join the Karazenpo organization and was promoted to 7th degree.  
When Sonny Gascon goes on seminar tours, these are the 2 guys he takes. Now nobody is saying that these 2 gentlemen are not good martial artists. To the contrary,they are very knowledgeable martial artists.  But the question is; are they teaching the "Original Karazenpo"?  And that is the topic of this thread.


----------



## Danjo

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Dear Mr. Weston,
> I was reading your post and a few interesting points came to mind:
> 1. You state "When asked to show some "Original" Karazenpo techniques, he replied, "It's all Karazenpo" which to me is just another way of saying that there _is_ no Karazenpo. Or, it could be a way of saying, "Heck it's been over 20 years since I taught anything, and I don't remember, so we'll just go with what you guys are doing now and call it Karazenpo."
> If i were to follow your logic on this point,then you state that if Adriano Emerado was to watch a demo of CHA3,Kakenbo,Chuanfa,Tumpai, & wun hop kuen do & He [Emerado] stated "It's all Kajukenbo" according to your logic, there would be no kajukenbo?
> If someone, rather, had said, as I did, "Sijo, if we demonstrate some of our material for you, would you be so kind as to stop us when you see something familiar so that we can gain from your knowledge?", then, if he TRUSTED you, because as you are well aware, there are many naysayers who have nothing good to say and never give a positive comment on a particular subject [HINT!]Then he would definitely be leary [rhymes with geary] to share information with them.
> I'm sure that over the passage of time some information may have been forgotten,however, if you eneter with a positive attitude and an open mind, information will be shared. I'm sure there were times in sijo emperado's life where he got sick of the negativity in his own style and just didn't want to deal with you guys at times.
> Things change,people change. Projects are passed to others and take time to be correctly written down and elaborated upon in print. I have started a series of short instructional video clips on youtube to give some insight into the karazenpo goshinjutsu art and it's influences. I light a candle rather than curse the darkness.
> As far as your comment about Karazenpo not looking like kajukenbo, it must be hard to see the forest with all those TREES in the way.
> BEGOOD,
> KENPOJOE


 
Well, 1) You haven't confirmed anything via video unless I missed where Gascon was shown demonstrating something. 2) The context of the quote I was told was when Gascon was demonstrating breakfalls and was asked to show Karazenpo moves. He said, "It's all karazenpo" so it wasn't in the context that you're suggesting.

I'm saying that "Seeing is believing" and you're saying "In order to see, you must first believe". Sorry, but I've drank enough Koolaid over the years.


----------



## Danjo

BTW, Here's a still/vidcap (one of many) of Sijo Emperado demonstrating Kajukenbo. He's not shy like Gascon seems to be. I've got video of him demonstrating from a wheelchair also. Not even feebleness can stop him from teaching and sharing. where's the footage of Sonny Gas?


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## The Kai

Thank you for clearing up a mystery, I was taught Pinan 1 by the name of Karaumpha!!


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## marlon

John Bishop,
what do you view as the difference btwn what was taught by Prof.Chow and what was taught by Sijo Emparado?  

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## John Bishop

marlon said:


> John Bishop,
> what do you view as the difference btwn what was taught by Prof.Chow and what was taught by Sijo Emparado?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Short answer:

From what Sijo Emperado has told me, during the time he trained with Prof. Chow, he was primarily teaching "kenpo jiu jutsu", pretty much the same as James Mitose.  It was practiced like Okinawan karate: makiwara training, linear blocks, single powerful punches.  He (Prof. Chow) also liked to teach judo quite a bit.  (_Yea I know, there are some people who never met Prof. Chow who proclaim that the Prof. never taught judo or katas._)  

As taught by Emperado, Kajukenbo uses jujitsu or judo in about 65-75% of our self defense techniques.  We also use the gunting and limb destruction techniques from escrima.  
In addition to the "octagonal" stepping patterns common in Hawaiian Kenpo, we also use the triangle stepping patterns from escrima, along with western boxing punches and parries.    
Many of the old timers refer to Kajukenbo as a "snap punching/snap kicking system".  We prefer "snapping" techniques over "thrusting" techniques because they lend themselves better to the multiple striking/kicking standing and ground combinations we use.  They also make it harder for a grappler to "catch" your technique and take you down.


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## RevIV

From Joe Shuras;

Hi Jesse, hope all is well with you and yours. I understand you have a new little one in the family, God bless! I was wondering if you could do me a small favor. I was killing some time Sunday and decided to take a look at MartialTalk. Under "The Real Karazenpo" thread Dan Weston had mentioned my name in a couple of posts. I attempted to reply but it's been so long now I have to register and then wait to be approved. Since I don't actively participate on a regular basis anymore so I figured I'll just go to you. 

Dan was pretty accurate but it's been awhile since we corresponded or talked via phone and with so much information discussed things can get a little blurred, however I feel his intentions were sincere and his recall was pretty much on the money.  There were just a few minor things that I do wish to clarify. He was accurate stating that SGM. Pesare did alter the combinations from the originals and if I may add, replaced others with his own creations BUT the first four forms were always taught the way he was taught by Sijo Gascon. I also learned the originals from him and if you can see his 60's video you'll see the first form. I also saw some 8mm movies Prof. Nick Cerio had of #1 and #3. Mr. Pesare did state to me at one time that with all the current interest on the "original' material that he was seriously considering going back and teaching the original combinations in seminar. So, the correction is he never altered the four original forms, just the numerical combinations, some minor, some more radical. 

The second minor correction is about it being "all the original Karazenpo" and the "forward rolls". It was close but just a little clarification here. The "all original Karazenpo" came from when we went to my good friend Bruce Corrigan's school back in 1994. Paul Pucino (an original SGM. Pesare Black Belt) was going over some of the combinations with Bruce in front of Sonny Gascon and Walter Godin and she asked: "Is this the original Kenpo?" The technique Bruce were going over with Paula was using both #3 & #4 block simultaneously (hard scissor type block to a right hand punch (or grab) striking wrist and bicep w/ a simultaneous right front ball kick to the shin. Paula turned and asked Sijo if this was the original Kempo and he stated: "It's all the original Kempo". This wasn't done at the seminar with the forward rolls. 

From what I recall this was done at one of the "Gathering of the Eagles" in which individual seminars were given and Sijo Gascon gave a portion on judo breakfalls, emphasis on the forward roll. An attendee of the G.O.E. had called me and was disappointed in that the seminar consisted of this. I know when I first trained under SGM. Pesare in the 70's the first thing he made sure he wanted us to learn was how to fall correctly and we had a similiar class. We would be pushed from behind, drop into a forward roll, spring to our feet, turn and immediately counter by closing the gap with a kick. Some may infer in that he was away from the art for a while and was more comfortable with these basics and others may infer that traditonally this is the first lesson in the "old hardcore" training methods of Karazenpo. We all, respectfully, have our opinions. However, I can backup KenpoJoe Rebelo for I arrived in Rhode Island at Paul Pucino's school and we were all sitting around with Sonny Gascon and KenpoJoe was recalling KGS techniques he was going over with Sijo Gascon the other night at Jimmy Speights' house in R.I. Brad Namahoe was also with us. To Danjo: I see you earned your Shodan in Kaju under Prof. Bishop-congratulations Dan.

This one's for Marlon. Marlon, back in 1978 myself, my friend Rick Modica and a group of black belts were going over forms up to Nenglis and combinations up to #39 with Gm. Villari in Dedham, Ma. I also saw your posts on Shou Tung Kwok (this is the exact spelling Mr. Villari used in the 1975 artiicle in Black Belt magazine. KenpoJoe still has it and we reviewed it at Paula's school that day I mentioned Sonny Gas was there. I am absolutely positive that back then the foot did not land-you remained in the one legged stance, left leg up-with TWO not three downward tiger rakes-left/right and both slapped the knee for effect. I was originally taught this form by Master John Fritz and then Mr. Villari went over it with us later and they both did it the same exact way-positive! I hope that didn't burst your bubble, Marlon, lol, just kidd'n.

Jesse, I appreciate it if you copy and paste this in it's entirety on one of your posts on that thread, thanks.

Hope all on the forum are doing well, God bless & take care, Joe Shuras


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## MJS

Jesse, thanks for posting this.  BTW, if you're in contact with Joe, and he is interested in posting again on the forum, one of his old accounts could be reopened.  This would eliminate the wait time.  Besides, it would be nice having him back! 

Mike


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## Danjo

Careful about spamming.


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## marlon

RevIV said:


> From Joe Shuras;
> 
> 
> 
> This one's for Marlon. Marlon, back in 1978 myself, my friend Rick Modica and a group of black belts were going over forms up to Nenglis and combinations up to #39 with Gm. Villari in Dedham, Ma. I also saw your posts on Shou Tung Kwok (this is the exact spelling Mr. Villari used in the 1975 artiicle in Black Belt magazine. KenpoJoe still has it and we reviewed it at Paula's school that day I mentioned Sonny Gas was there. I am absolutely positive that back then the foot did not land-you remained in the one legged stance, left leg up-with TWO not three downward tiger rakes-left/right and both slapped the knee for effect. I was originally taught this form by Master John Fritz and then Mr. Villari went over it with us later and they both did it the same exact way-positive! I hope that didn't burst your bubble, Marlon, lol, just kidd'n.
> 
> 
> Hope all on the forum are doing well, God bless & take care, Joe Shuras




That's great Joe!  Actually, the way i was originally taught the form...well i had 3 tigers but done on one leg with the slapping of the knee!  I think it was seeing Shihan do it differently or just me (although i rarely change things on my own...not qualified) that had me change it and the change made sense.  Do you have a reason why it was done from the one leg stance?  Your input is missed here on MT.  It would be amazing if you could convince Master Fritz to give some input here, also.  Thanks Jesse for getting this to us!
Respectfully,
Marlon


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## FelixBG

There's some karazenpo forms performed by GM Jean-Guy Angell who trained under Pesare






In french :


			Histoire Jean-Guy Angell


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## Gentle Fist

FelixBG said:


> There's some karazenpo forms performed by GM Jean-Guy Angell who trained under Pesare
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In french :
> 
> 
> Histoire Jean-Guy Angell


Wow nice find 🤙


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