# A lot of stuff to remember...



## geezer (Sep 1, 2010)

I was floating around on the web yesterday and stopped in on the EWTO website to catch WT _GM Kernspecht's_ latest editorial. He was discussing the "forms" of WT. He mentioned the 6 classical sets (SNT, Chum Kiu, Biu Tze, Mook Yang Jong, Luk Dim Boon Kwun Fa, and the Bart Cham Dao) and also included the WT systems 26 two man training sets (the "Lat sau" and Chi-Sau sections. _The total comes to 32 solo and two man sets._ Some are short, but even so, isn't that a lot to take in? Especially for a system known for streamlining its forms and techniques? 

Personally, as I move officially into my senior years (55 now) I find that it's hard to keep up with an ever expanding curriculum in the sub-system I train in. I'm just hoping to some day reach a level where I don't have to try to remember it all.... and instead get to a point where that's just how I'll move. 'Cause if I actually have to actually memorize that much stuff... I'm screwed!

Anyway, do your WC systems or lineages also have this volume of material? Either way, do you think that that is too much or not?


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## WC_lun (Sep 1, 2010)

Having moved to Wing Chun from an animal system of kung fu, I can tell you that this is NOT a lot of stuff to memorize.  It is actually quite small.  Also understand you aren't going to have to learn it all in the next week or so.  You have many years to memorize and perfect the material.  If you won't be able to memorizze such a small amount of material in say 5 years time, then no martial art is going to be good for you. understand that memerizing these patterns isn't the tough part.  it is perfecting them.


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## geezer (Sep 1, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> Having moved to Wing Chun from an animal system of kung fu, I can tell you that this is NOT a lot of stuff to memorize....


 
Yeah, my first encounter with CMA was in a complicated animal system back about '76. It flamboyent and beautiful (or so I thought at the time). But as a practical method for learning hand to hand fighting, it was totally unwieldy. Plenty of good movements, but the complexity of the forms was extreme to the point of being unrealistic. If you ever really needed to use the stuff, they were sure teaching you the slow way! By comparison the WC/WT/VT I've studied is far more efficient and direct. But 32 "forms" including 26 choreographed sections of Lat-sau and chi-sau is still _a lot_ when compared to a fighting art like boxing for example. I guess the question is all about how you want to alott your time between the different facets of training.

Oh, and by the way, it will take a lot longer than five years to even get _access_ to all that material, much less memorize it. And "memorizing" it is just the beginning since the chi-sau and lat sau cycles constanly change in response to what your partner throws at you. It really is mind boggling, you know.


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## mook jong man (Sep 1, 2010)

geezer said:


> I was floating around on the web yesterday and stopped in on the EWTO website to catch WT _GM Kernspecht's_ latest editorial. He was discussing the "forms" of WT. He mentioned the 6 classical sets (SNT, Chum Kiu, Biu Tze, Mook Yang Jong, Luk Dim Boon Kwun Fa, and the Bart Cham Dao) and also included the WT systems 26 two man training sets (the "Lat sau" and Chi-Sau sections. _The total comes to 32 solo and two man sets._ Some are short, but even so, isn't that a lot to take in? Especially for a system known for streamlining its forms and techniques?
> 
> Personally, as I move officially into my senior years (55 now) I find that it's hard to keep up with an ever expanding curriculum in the sub-system I train in. I'm just hoping to some day reach a level where I don't have to try to remember it all.... and instead get to a point where that's just how I'll move. 'Cause if I actually have to actually memorize that much stuff... I'm screwed!
> 
> Anyway, do your WC systems or lineages also have this volume of material? Either way, do you think that that is too much or not?


 
On the face of it , it does seem like a hell of a lot.
Are these solo and two man sets all different or just variations of each other ?

But I suppose we would have quite a few drills as well such as four , six and eight corner deflection drills etc , its just that they are not codified and quantified , everybody knows them and we have always used them.

Without knowing exactly what your ones are and the attributes they are meant to develop I would be loathed to say get rid of them as they may be very valuable and make up the nuts and bolts of your system.

It is not a lot compared to other styles where they have a kata for this and a kata for that , which are basically rehearsed combat sequences against imaginary multiple opponents.

As long as each solo or two man set is built around a concept or a theme and developing the correct muscular action , utilisation of body mass and positioning of the Wing Chun tools , rather than just some funny abstract dance with a few hand movements thrown in.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2010)

As far as I know the 2 lineages I trained in both had the following

Siu Nim Tao (&#23567;&#24565;&#38957;; xi&#462;o niàn tóu
Chum Kiu (&#23563;&#27211;; xún qiáo)
Biu Tze (&#37858;&#25351;: bi&#257;o zh&#464
Muk Yan Jong (&#26408;&#20154;&#27137;; mùrénzhu&#257;ng)
Yee Jee Seung Do 
Luk Dim Boon Kwun

and of course Chi Sao (&#40656;&#25163;, ch&#464;sh&#466;u)

But I should add I never got past Siu Nim Tao (&#23567;&#24565;&#38957;; xi&#462;o niàn tóu) so there could be more


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## Vajramusti (Sep 1, 2010)

Hi Steve-as you know, I don't do Kernspecht's or Leung Ting's version of 
wing chun.
Our wing chun does have a large curriculum(check the Augustine Fong website). But I didn't  memorize" it. Didn't have to-doing the basic hand forms 
and lots of chi sao eventually informs the reflexes.The "curriculum" is just a check point for reflection and absorption  from time to time.
You area young guy at 55- I turned 77 last Sunday... some aches and pains sometimes but my  reflexes are in fine shape for self defense.
joy


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## geezer (Sep 1, 2010)

mook jong man said:


> As long as *each solo or two man set is built around a concept or a theme* and developing the correct muscular action , utilisation of body mass and positioning of the Wing Chun tools , rather than just some funny abstract dance with a few hand movements thrown in.



Mook, the bolded part of your quote is exactly the idea, as I understand it. To clarify, I don't do WT these days. But I did train WT under Leung Ting for about a decade or so back in the 80's. He trained us personally and did not use the European methods developed by his top European student, Master Kernspecht... so we did not learn exactly the same drills and training sets. I will say that whenever we encountered a high level "visitor" from the European organization, we were very impressed. Judging by the results, the  European system works. 

My current instructor did train both in Europe and with LT over here before going off on his own, and he is quite familiar with both the LT (Hong Kong) and EWTO approaches. He is bringing me up to date on the European style training, and right now I'm about mentally overloaded. Maybe if I were younger and could put in four hours of training every day like some of the guys do... On the other hand, if you really internalize the structures, concepts, the feeling and way of moving, maybe you don't need to "remember" so much... when you get good enough to just "ad lib" and make it work. I think that's what Joy was alluding to.

BTW, Joy, _Happy Birthday!_ 77... wow! I had no idea. Well I guess that gives me 22 years to catch up to you! --Steve


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## matsu (Sep 2, 2010)

geezer- you have 11 yrs on me and i,m struggling to "get" some of this and then memeorise it and allow it to absorb. it seems as soon as i,m getting one thing, we're moving onto another thing and it slips.
just want my numbers to come up on the lottery and then i can train 4 hrs per day.

Vajramusti- 77yrs young... wow. i hope im this passionate about wing chun at that age, hell ill be happy walking and breathing unaided lol
 matsu


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## cwk (Sep 2, 2010)

The style of wing chun I practice has quite a lot of stuff to remember but it's nothing compared to the northern kung fu curriculum I learned at Chin Woo. My sifu taught me about 30 forms! I'm always suprised that I can still remember the finer details of the forms when I come to teach them.


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## wushuguy (Sep 2, 2010)

As said before Originally Posted by *mook jong man* "*each solo or two man set is built around a concept or a theme*"


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 2, 2010)

When teaching my class the other day, I found a grading sheet for another style (that also use the hall). They had 32 techniques in one grading lol!!

Even still, 26 set moves for chi sao etc seems a bit much. Wing chun should be simple and be focused more on movement rather than set drills

This comes down to 'aliveness' that everyone always talks about. Certainly have a couple of set drills, but once you get to a certain level, things like chi sao should not be a collection of drills. Your hands should be able to react anyway they need to, rather than use the long way round


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## geezer (Sep 2, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> ...Even still, 26 set moves for chi sao etc seems a bit much. Wing chun should be simple and be focused more on movement rather than set drills...


 
I agree.

However in all fairness, the way the WT sets are conceived is _not_ an attempt to reduce Chi-Sau to rote memorization. Rather it's like polishing your command of a  new language. Long after you learn to converse freely, you still have to step back and learn correct grammar or you will always be talking like a New York cabbie... fluently, but awkwardly, with a strong accent. The Chi-Sau sets in WT (and also in the "VT" I train) are like "practice conversations" in a language class, to make sure you internalize the most efficient responses. They are not meant to replace free and fluid Chi-Sau. That is more like having an actual conversation, discussion or even argument with another person!


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## yak sao (Sep 2, 2010)

My old si-sok used to say that all the chi sao sections are artificial and don't really exist. they are merely vehicles to get you from point A to point B.Once there, you no longer need them. Or as KK puts it, They are like a boat to get you across the water. Once you are on the other side you don't carry the boat with you. the only reason you would hold onto the sections at that point would be to go back across the water and bring someone else over to the other side with you.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 2, 2010)

If this seems like a burdensome curriculum to you, stay away from the various kenpo lineages...


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## profesormental (Sep 3, 2010)

Greetings.

I am working on focusing on drills vs sets for my Wing Chun.

Limiting the number of sets and focusing on application drills keeps the focus on the self defense and situational aspects of combat scenarios. This way we learn by experience... or simulated experience, with most probable situations worked out more.

Just the sets, with all the intricacies of executing basic movements optimally for martial purposes should be enough to keep you occupied more than learning many dances.

The classic, basic drills, we do a bit, yet people that are really mad at you and want to hurt you don't strike the same way most Wing Chun folks throw...

so we prepare for that, and the attacks they may use.

Hope that helps.


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## seasoned (Sep 3, 2010)

yak sao said:


> My old si-sok used to say that all the chi sao sections are artificial and don't really exist. they are merely vehicles to get you from point A to point B.Once there, you no longer need them. Or as KK puts it, They are like a boat to get you across the water. Once you are on the other side you don't carry the boat with you. the only reason you would hold onto the sections at that point would be to go back across the water and bring someone else over to the other side with you.


Very profound, excellent point. We learn to forget, with redundancy a hindrance.
Back to the OP, this is a problem with many disciplines.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2010)

You want a lot to remember

Long Form
Fast form 1
Fast form 2
Short Dao form
Long Dao Form
Jian Form
Staff Form
Stationary push hands - 3 types
3 step push hands
4 corner push hands
There is also a 0ne step drill and a sticking drill

12 pieces of brocade
Several different Qi gong forms

oh and while we are at it you should know all forms going from right to left and left to right.

But then I read this and it is spot on



yak sao said:


> My old si-sok used to say that all the chi sao sections are artificial and don't really exist. they are merely vehicles to get you from point A to point B.Once there, you no longer need them. Or as KK puts it, They are like a boat to get you across the water. Once you are on the other side you don't carry the boat with you. the only reason you would hold onto the sections at that point would be to go back across the water and bring someone else over to the other side with you.


 



seasoned said:


> Very profound, excellent point. We learn to forget, with redundancy a hindrance.
> Back to the OP, this is a problem with many disciplines.


 
And that is about it, don't get hung up in forms and drills they are all, as it has already been said, simply a way to get from point A to point B




Flying Crane said:


> If this seems like a burdensome curriculum to you, stay away from the various kenpo lineages...


 
  nope, I've seen a kenpo curriculum and it scares me... there is WAY to much to remember there


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## matsu (Sep 3, 2010)

geezer said:


> I agree.
> 
> However in all fairness, the way the WT sets are conceived is _not_ an attempt to reduce Chi-Sau to rote memorization. Rather it's like polishing your command of a new language. Long after you learn to converse freely, you still have to step back and learn correct grammar or you will always be talking like a New York cabbie... fluently, but awkwardly, with a strong accent. The Chi-Sau sets in WT (and also in the "VT" I train) are like "practice conversations" in a language class, to make sure you internalize the most efficient responses. They are not meant to replace free and fluid Chi-Sau. That is more like having an actual conversation, discussion or even argument with another person!


 
i love this analogy, of language and gramer and a conversation.......
i feel like i am getting to the stage of being able to ask questions in a foreign language. i know a few odd words and phrases and i,m trying to put them together to form sentences.... and on a good day i can form a paragraph lol but i cant wait to speak wing chun fluently.
thanks geezer. that was elequent. and i will use that in the future and in my work, when passing on my knowledge of that to my trainees.
matsu


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## dungeonworks (Sep 5, 2010)

geezer said:


> I was floating around on the web yesterday and stopped in on the EWTO website to catch WT _GM Kernspecht's_ latest editorial. He was discussing the "forms" of WT. He mentioned the 6 classical sets (SNT, Chum Kiu, Biu Tze, Mook Yang Jong, Luk Dim Boon Kwun Fa, and the Bart Cham Dao) and also included the WT systems 26 two man training sets (the "Lat sau" and Chi-Sau sections. _The total comes to 32 solo and two man sets._ Some are short, but even so, isn't that a lot to take in? Especially for a system known for streamlining its forms and techniques?
> 
> Personally, as I move officially into my senior years (55 now) I find that it's hard to keep up with an ever expanding curriculum in the sub-system I train in. I'm just hoping to some day reach a level where I don't have to try to remember it all.... and instead get to a point where that's just how I'll move. 'Cause if I actually have to actually memorize that much stuff... I'm screwed!
> 
> Anyway, do your WC systems or lineages also have this volume of material? Either way, do you think that that is too much or not?



Geezer, it's important to note that 55 yrs old is not the 55 yrs old you remember of people when you were 25 yrs old.  I think about 3/4 of the people I know in their 50's and 60's are far more healthy, agile, and nutritionally more aware than those of the same age in years past.  I hear a saying that 60 is the new 40 and I believe it, so just enjoy the ride brother.  Even outside of Wing Chun I have had my "bad days" trying to keep up with martial artist's around your age....and as I have said in other posts, NOTHING hurts a young man more than getting an *** whoopin' from an old man!  Just seems to be more OUCH on the business end of them punches!  I won't even mention "Old man strength"!


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