# Bassai/Passai/Pal Sek  Variations from style to style and respective bunkai



## SahBumNimRush (Mar 8, 2013)

K-man said:


> So, we have to work with what we have and try to use our knowledge of  techniques to unravel the secrets of the kata we are studying,  regardless of the variations. I haven't tried it, but, it might be  possible to look across the spectrum at the differences to help with our  understanding.    :asian:




I'll put this here, since it involves OMA, JMA, and KMA's  Since we were recently talking about bunkai and how changing the form/kata/hyung is a detriment by limiting applications, I thought I'd start a new thread to explore this a bit further.  I previously posted in another thread about Seisan, but since I don't really know that for very well, I thought I'd start with Bassai.

For reference sake here are the various forms of Bassai Dai from the various styles that practice the form:

Shito Ryu Bassai Dai:






Shorin Ryu Passai Dai:






Shotokan Bassai Dai:






Shuri Ryu Passai Dai:






Wado Ryu Bassai:






Gensei Ryu Bassai:






Kyokushin Bassai:






Shindo Jinenryu Bassai:






Shukokai Bassai:






Shorinji Ryu Bassai:






Tang Soo Do Bassai:


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 8, 2013)

Here is some older footage of bunkai as per the JKA from the 1960's.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 8, 2013)

Sequentially, I'll start from the ready motion posture through the first movement.  When I first learned the form I was taught this movement as a lunging block, i.e. attacking the attack.  Much like the bunkai above demonstrates.  

As I gained experience and rank, I was shown applications as a throwing defense against a wrist grab.  I can't seem to find an example on the almighty youtube of the technique, and I don't have a personal video of it.. . I'll have to continue to do some digging.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2013)

Here is a video I produced on the opening move for Bassai kata.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRiQh-7Z578&list=UUQRaQdqLXTEtDcT8hjQTbAA&index=5

Bassai means "to penetrate the fortress."  I interpret this to mean that all of the applications are designed to turn a very bad situation around completely around.  Therefore, the applications in Bassai tend to have more techniques in them that would cause serious injury.


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## TimoS (Mar 8, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Bassai means "to penetrate the fortress."



There's just one minor problem with that translation: the kata name Passai was already known before Itosu (?) selected the kanji for it. This means that we don't know for sure what, if anything, Passai originally meant. Maybe it did mean "penetrate the fortress", maybe it didn't. In Seibukan we don't use the kanji for (most of) the kata, precisely because of the reason I stated. 

Oh and sorry for nitpicking, I've had a few beers and that tends to make want to split hairs


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## Makalakumu (Mar 8, 2013)

TimoS said:


> There's just one minor problem with that translation: the kata name Passai was already known before Itosu (?) selected the kanji for it. This means that we don't know for sure what, if anything, Passai originally meant. Maybe it did mean "penetrate the fortress", maybe it didn't. In Seibukan we don't use the kanji for (most of) the kata, precisely because of the reason I stated.
> 
> Oh and sorry for nitpicking, I've had a few beers and that tends to make want to split hairs



That makes a lot of sense.  It's sort of how everything evolves.  The names come after the thing exists.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Mar 9, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Sequentially, I'll start from the ready motion posture through the first movement.  When I first learned the form I was taught this movement as a lunging block, i.e. attacking the attack.  Much like the bunkai above demonstrates.
> 
> As I gained experience and rank, I was shown applications as a throwing defense against a wrist grab.  I can't seem to find an example on the almighty youtube of the technique, and I don't have a personal video of it.. . I'll have to continue to do some digging.



Honestly, my favorite application for that movement is one that my instructor teaches that he based on the idea that Patsai/Passai/Bassai was taught to the bodyguards of Okinawan royalty and, as such, contains mostly techniques for protecting another person. My instructor does acknowledge that we don't know for certain that this is what was intended, but the theory still yields some interesting results in bunkai. Essentially, the fist-in-palm position at the opening is the Okinawan version of the Secret Service's "hands ready position," which can be seen here:







This position allows the bodyguard to be relaxed, but also have their hands in a position from which they can easily and swiftly counter attacks that may be initiated against them or the person they are defending. Since the kata then proceeds to cover distance, we can assume (based on the above theory) that we are covering distance to get between an attacker and the person we are defending. From there, the kata shows a me-oto-de uke (married hands receiving technique), which is done slightly differently depending on the version you do, but the general movement typically involves an outward-moving chudan uke (mid-level "block") with the other hand performing some sort of supporting action. This can be used simply as a way of supporting the movement, structurally, to shove the attacker away while deflecting their attack. What we typically do, however, is use the supporting hand as a strike--either nukite (spear hand) or shuto (sword hand) while the other hand deflects the attack. In our version the supporting hand is not touching the primary hand/arm, but is instead held rigidly in a spear/sword hand configuration pointing at the other hand, very much like you see in the Shorin-Ryu example provided in the OP.

You can stop there, but we usually practice putting the attacker on the floor by grabbing them from there and performing the following technique. In our kata, that is a spin (the kosa-dachi (cross-legged stance) indicates that a throw can be done from that position) followed by either a left outward-moving chudan uke (our Passai Sho) or by the hands dropping (our Passai Dai). Both hand positions can result in throwing the attacker, but in slightly different ways.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

Wow! Sesan had a convoluted path with multiple sources but Bassai!  That is something else. I tried to draw the links but it is a truly incestuous picture. All the styles that were posted with versions of Bassai are interconnected. I am not being lazy by posting from Wiki but that more or less summarises the information I found.  The most interesting thing of all, and nothing to do with variation, is that the creator of the kata was left handed. Or, maybe it has everything to do with the different versions as one after the other of the masters teaching Bassai tried to adapt it to a more right handed form.



> Of the Okinawan versions of Passai, a clear evolutionary link can be seen from Matsumura no Passai (named after the legendary Sokon Matsumura), to Oyadomari no Passai (named after the Tomari-te karate master Kokan Oyadomari), and then onto the Passai of Anko Itosu who popularized karate by introducing it into the curriculum of Okinawan schools. The Matsumura version has a distinct Chinese flavour, whereas the Oyadomari version is more "Okinawanized". It was further modified by Itosu, and is thought to have created a "sho" (Passai sho) form of it. Gichin Funakoshi of Shotokan took it to Japan and taught them as Bassai dai and Bassai sho. The Tomari style which incorporated Oyadomari no Passai was passed down the Oyadomari family for three generations, originally taught by a Chinese living in Tomari (possibly named Anan), who "used very light techniques". Sokon Matsumura also learned Chinese boxing from the military attaches Ason and Iwah at Fuchou.
> The Okinawan versions include powerful blocking and angular defense against attacks from multiple directions. This form is at least 400 years old (based on a carbon tested, silk drawing of the form), and is a family form (Passai is the name of a family in Okinawa). The creator of the form was left-handed. If the practitioner keeps that in mind, some more of the hidden techniques of the form will become visible.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passai



I learned Bassai Dai about twelve years ago in another life and, to be honest, I didn't like it.  It did not fit with other Goju kata. But that's another story.     I have no more than superficial knowledge of the ins and outs of Bassai.  So if it's OK, I'll just grab a beer and watch the discussion from the sidelines.      :asian:


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## TimoS (Mar 9, 2013)

> The creator of the form was left-handed


Doubtful. Of course it's possible, but since nobody knows the true origins of Passai, how can we know that the creator (who might not even have been Okinawan for all we know) was left-handed? I don't have the book at hand right now, but I think McCarthy has speculated that the kata was originally Chinese.
Oh and as for Passai, there exists also a version that is not related to the versions linked here earlier. We call it Passai Guwa, some call it Koryu Passai. Here's the Seibukan version
[yt]pamrxy5WsgM[/yt]


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

TimoS said:


> Doubtful. Of course it's possible, but since nobody knows the true origins of Passai, how can we know that the creator (who might not even have been Okinawan for all we know) was left-handed? I don't have the book at hand right now, but I think McCarthy has speculated that the kata was originally Chinese.
> Oh and as for Passai, there exists also a version that is not related to the versions linked here earlier. We call it Passai Guwa, some call it Koryu Passai. Here's the Seibukan version
> [yt]pamrxy5WsgM[/yt]


I'm sure you are right about being Chinese. It is most likely that it was brought back by Bushi Matsumura.  Almost everyone else involved in Bassai was student of, or student of student of Matsumura.   The Okinawan base seems to be Shuri-te.   :asian:


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## dancingalone (Mar 9, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Sequentially, I'll start from the ready motion posture through the first movement.  When I first learned the form I was taught this movement as a lunging block, i.e. attacking the attack.  Much like the bunkai above demonstrates.
> 
> As I gained experience and rank, I was shown applications as a throwing defense against a wrist grab.  I can't seem to find an example on the almighty youtube of the technique, and I don't have a personal video of it.. . I'll have to continue to do some digging.



I see one possible interpretation to be the technique called nikkyo in aikido.  It surely also exists in virtually every other system I've studied by one name or another.  The wrapping of the hands and fingers in the Passai opening movement is a hint on how to turn the attacker's hand (and his core) to secure leverage immediately.

This video isn't perfectly the idea I am expressing since it doesn't show using the left hand as part of the technique, but it's probably close enough.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 9, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> The wrapping of the hands and fingers in the Passai opening movement is a hint on how to turn the attacker's hand (and his core) to secure leverage immediately.



I believe this is similar to what I was getting at previously.  By wrapping and pulling the opponent's arm and core to secure leverage, then the "leaping" into the cross leg stance beyond the opponent, takes the opponents locked wrist quickly and fiercely behind his own body for a throw.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 9, 2013)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> Honestly, my favorite application for that movement is one that my instructor teaches that he based on the idea that Patsai/Passai/Bassai was taught to the bodyguards of Okinawan royalty and, as such, contains mostly techniques for protecting another person. My instructor does acknowledge that we don't know for certain that this is what was intended, but the theory still yields some interesting results in bunkai. Essentially, the fist-in-palm position at the opening is the Okinawan version of the Secret Service's "hands ready position," which can be seen here:



My Sah Bum Nim was an honor guard for Kennedy, and teaches this "passive" defensive posture as well.  I had no idea this "posture" was something utilized by the Okinawan guard centuries ago.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> My Sah Bum Nim was an honor guard for Kennedy, and teaches this "passive" defensive posture as well.  I had no idea this "posture" was something utilized by the Okinawan guard centuries ago.


Most of these guys have a 'passive' ready position. Body language says, "OK guys, everything is under control. From that position it is easy to move to 'active' ready or take immediate action.  The one I don't like is the guy with the interlocked fingers. If he was grabbed from behind that could be the difference between an easy escape and being controlled. Hands clasped in front, fine .. hands by the sides and slightly to the front, fine.  Fingers interlocked, not for me.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2013)

In the sequence right after the opening, the series of outside inside and inside outside blocks, I've been playing with an application that moves an opponent and lets you take the back.  I can see something like this being used as crowd control.  Sweep the arms out of the way and turn the person around.  

If Matsumura is the origin of bassai on Okinawa, it would make sense that certain kata would contain crowd control techniques.  I imagine they had plenty of opportunity to escort people out or clear a path through a crowd.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 9, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> In the sequence right after the opening, the series of outside inside and inside outside blocks, I've been playing with an application that moves an opponent and lets you take the back.  I can see something like this being used as crowd control.  Sweep the arms out of the way and turn the person around.



I have used the 2nd-4th moves in a similar manner which you describe in defense from a rear shoulder grab, lapel grab or strike.  The first two inside out blocks to position the opponent in a position which gives you the leverage (i.e. locking the wrist, elbow, and/or shoulder), then the turning outside in block to throw or move the opponent out of the way.


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## K-man (Mar 9, 2013)

OK. The beer is finished and now you are talking application I'll throw one in. In fact this scenario is best suited to a left handed person despite *TimoS*' scepticism.   I am also applying my understanding of the 'rules' of kata that determine positions relative to your opponent, all strikes are to vital points and all techniques should be finishing techniques or put you in a dominant position to finish. Also before karate went into the schools the hands were open, not clenched.

Before someone shoots me down, I have just looked at this now and have not pressure tested it apart from subjecting my wife to the basic movement.

Attacker (Uke) pushes or grabs with his left arm towards the right shoulder (grab) or right side of torso ( push or punch) . This is likely going to be closely followed by a right punch.

Defender (Nage) moves to the right allowing the Uke's hand to move towards Nage's right side. This makes it possible for Nage to grab the left wrist and lift and turn Kote Gaeshi (wrist throw). Normally this would be a straight take down and finishing move but let's assume it fails.  Even in failing the first move will have unbalanced Uke. The 180 degree turn in the kata represents a spinning anticlockwise turn that finishes with a left hand strike (most likely ura haito uchi or ura ken uchi, but could be shuto uchi)  to the back of the skull (GB 20). Normally this should be a finishing strike but again, let's assume it fails. The right arm goes under uke's left arm to trap the arm near the shoulder, turning him so he is now face to face again (second turn). That exposes the left side of the neck for a left ura haito to the throat (ST 9). Again, that should be a finishing move. Etc, etc, etc.    I had never before thought of looking at a kata from the perspective of a left handed person.   :asian:


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## Never_A_Reflection (Mar 9, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> My Sah Bum Nim was an honor guard for Kennedy, and teaches this "passive" defensive posture as well.  I had no idea this "posture" was something utilized by the Okinawan guard centuries ago.



I certainly can't guarantee that they did, but it stands to reason that body guards would have figured it out before the Secret Service did sometime in the thousands of years they existed all across the world.



Makalakumu said:


> In the sequence right after the opening, the series of outside inside and inside outside blocks, I've been playing with an application that moves an opponent and lets you take the back.  I can see something like this being used as crowd control.  Sweep the arms out of the way and turn the person around.
> 
> If Matsumura is the origin of bassai on Okinawa, it would make sense that certain kata would contain crowd control techniques.  I imagine they had plenty of opportunity to escort people out or clear a path through a crowd.



I would agree with this approach. I will say, however, that I feel the sequences of outside-inside/inside-outside chudan uke are an "Itosu-fication." By that, I mean that those sequences don't seem to exist in older versions, and so while I have found a similar application for them, I prefer to work with versions that did not receive modification (or much modification, at least) by Itosu. Some good examples are the Passai passed on by Hohan Soken, the Passai passed on by Taika Oyata, and the Passai that Chibana learned from Tawada Sensei. Of those, I only practice Tawada Passai (also called Matsumura no Passai) as passed on by Chibana as Passai Dai, which can be seen here:






In this version, you can see that those inward/outward uke sequences are not present, and if memory serves they are not present in the other two examples I listed. If we look at these versions, then we see a rising wedge being made with the arms, which then drop and proceed into a jodan uke and then into a me-oto-de age-ura-tsuki (married hands uppercut). For this sequence, I see it as either advancing through a crowd, much as you mentioned, or defending against nearly any frontal assault, which is something that would be likely to occur if you step in front of the person you are protecting. The wedge action of the arms is used today to escort clients through crowds, and the dropping arms could easily be used to press two people apart in the process, while the subsequent movements could be used to counter people trying to grab you or otherwise stop you. For a frontal assault of some type, I use this as a flinch response (hands come up to protect the head) and once contact is made I drop the arms, control whichever limb I made contact with and strike with the jodan uke to the head/jaw/throat (depending on what is open). The movement after that (married hands uppercut) serves very well as a method of clearing a blocking limb out of the way and countering, in case the attacker was able to block your initial jodan uke.


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## TimoS (Mar 9, 2013)

I think this video has been here on MT before, but repetition is good  Here are _some_ applications to Passai
[yt]tKBo5wcAzwo[/yt]
From 2:40 onwards.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2013)

It all sounds like good stuff.  The version of bassai that we all practice may be different, but I think we can all come up with some decent applications for it.  For my part, I originally learned the kata with no applications.  In my lineage, the applications were not transmitted and it's been something that I've had to pick up later.  There is also a fair about of reverse engineering of movements going on with my practice as well.  So, I can't really say if what I work out is historically accurate.  I try to do as much research as possible, but in the end, it all comes down to my interpretation.  

I wonder if there is anyway to verify what the original applications actually were?  Is it possible to train in a system that teaches bassai and has passed down the exact applications through a distinct lineage that goes right back to the originators of the kata?  I'd love to actually catch a glimpse of the minds who created the kata I just practiced this morning.


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## TimoS (Mar 9, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I wonder if there is anyway to verify what the original applications actually were?


I would say that unless you happen to have a time machine parked in your garage, the chances are not good. Many of the Okinawan schools do carry the bunkai and while the "outside" of a kata might change a bit over the years and from teacher to teacher, the "inside" should remain the same. The actual applications might also be somewhat different, but they should all utilize the same basic principles.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2013)

TimoS said:


> I would say that unless you happen to have a time machine parked in your garage, the chances are not good. Many of the Okinawan schools do carry the bunkai and while the "outside" of a kata might change a bit over the years and from teacher to teacher, the "inside" should remain the same. The actual applications might also be somewhat different, but they should all utilize the same basic principles.



Noting all of the variations of the kata, I wonder what principles carry through all of them.  If the kanji for the kata is something that is fabricated, where does a person start when it comes to understanding the principles?


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## dancingalone (Mar 10, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> Noting all of the variations of the kata, I wonder what principles carry through all of them.  If the kanji for the kata is something that is fabricated, where does a person start when it comes to understanding the principles?



I think what is taught most immediately by one's teacher or one's teacher's teacher, even if it is a recent addition, must be evaluated first.  

Many Tang Soo Do schools for example impart animal totems to the forms, such as Turtle for the Pinan, Snake for Passai, and Bear for Naihanchi.  I don't know that the Turtle analogy works for me, but running Passai with the characteristics of a Snake (swift, supple, sudden, deadly) possibly could, even if the idea is one probably introduced by a Korean somewhere along the line rather than by Itosu or Matsumura.

Obviously the practice of the basics need to align with this idea too.  If you want to embue Passai with a snake's spirit, your isolated technique practice whether in the air or on a heavy bag need have it too.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 10, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Many Tang Soo Do schools for example impart animal totems to the forms, such as Turtle for the Pinan, Snake for Passai, and Bear for Naihanchi.



I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.


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## dancingalone (Mar 10, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.



I recently heard a bit more about it that I'll share here.  A master I am friendly who came up through the MDK & Soo Bahk Do told me it is something he has heard Grandmaster HC Hwang discuss in brief, so I would surmise that with regard to the Okinawan/Japanese forms, the animal totems is something they are willing to embrace to a degree.  My friend didn't know who first came up with the idea though.

Edit:  A good first starting place is to look at Kang Uk Lee as the source since he has the only published work I am aware of that mentions animals in connection to the forms.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 10, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.



If you look at Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Volume 2, the one with all of the advanced forms described in it, the opening has a prominent animal picture right above the textual description of the form.  It may come from this.


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## Makalakumu (Mar 10, 2013)

As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata.  Bassai, for example, translates into "to penetrate the fortress".  I see this immediately turning a bad situation into a positive one for you.  I see it as teaching karateka more advanced, more dangerous responses, because the odds are stacked against you in a confrontation.  For me, when I interpret the kata, multiple attackers, empty hand defense against weapons, outright killing techniques are shown.  

Here is a partial list of principles

1.  Immediate incapacitation.
2.  Multiple attacker superior position.
3.  Defanging the snake.
4.  Basic weapon knowledge.


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## TimoS (Mar 10, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata


I see. And what, if anything, can you deduce from e.g. Seisan, which _might_ mean 13? Or Gojushiho, i.e. 54 steps?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 10, 2013)

TimoS said:


> I see. And what, if anything, can you deduce from e.g. Seisan, which _might_ mean 13? Or Gojushiho, i.e. 54 steps?



I suppose you'd have to understand the numerology. Isn't 54 an important Buddhist number? It's half of 108.


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## K-man (Mar 10, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata.  Bassai, for example, translates into "to penetrate the fortress".  I see this immediately turning a bad situation into a positive one for you.  I see it as teaching karateka more advanced, more dangerous responses, because the odds are stacked against you in a confrontation.  For me, when I interpret the kata, multiple attackers, empty hand defense against weapons, outright killing techniques are shown.
> 
> Here is a partial list of principles
> 
> ...


If this is correct, the kata was named by the family that developed the system.  The translation is also questioned. 



> The Okinawan versions include powerful blocking and angular defense against attacks from multiple directions. This form is at least 400 years old (based on a carbon tested, silk drawing of the form), and is a family form (Passai is the name of a family in Okinawa). The creator of the form was left-handed. If the practitioner keeps that in mind, some more of the hidden techniques of the form will become visible.
> The Okinawans did not have a clear definition for the name "Passai" for Funakoshi to translate into Japanese, so he substituted it with a similar sounding kanji, "Bassai". This can be literally translated to mean "extract from a fortress" or "remove an obstruction". This is thought to be in reference to the power with which the kata should be executed, emphasizing energy generation from the hips and waist. However, the designation of Bassai by the Japanese does not appear to have a direct relation to movements in the kata or its origins.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passai



You have made a number of assumptions about this kata that I would suggest apply to all kata. Because all kata are fighting systems, why is it this one is more advanced? All kata contain lethal techniques. 

As to multiple attackers? Sure, you can interpret ithat way but that is then saying that a kata is a combination of individual actions or reactions. How do you determine where one action stops and the next begins?  Interpreting any kata as turning to defend against a different attacker means that kata no longer gives you the information regarding your position relative to your attacker and the angle and direction of your strike. Multiple directions is not the same as multiple attackers. As a fighting system, you can enter a kata at any point.  If the attack is a grab from behind the kata will give you the basic response that will get you out of the grab and provide the turn or move to allow you to overcome the attacker.  There would be litterally dozens of applications in any kata but each move should provide an application that takes over from the previous one should the previous one fail.  Practising kata gives you the muscle memory to continue the sequence of the system under stress.

In Arnis, for example, the forms are used with sticks but they also work the same way with knives or empty handed. I don't believe any of the Chinese based forms work the same way.  I have seen some kata reworked to include applications with sai or tonfa but I don't believe for one minute that that was the way they were used in China. The Chinese have their own weapon kata.

Defanging the snake?  Sure you can have an interpretation for that as that is what bunkai is about. But, in the classical sense 'defanging the snake' is about attacking the arm or hand holding a weapon until it can no longer hold it. That was often a series of cuts or blows. I can't see how a kata can do that. A kata gives you sequential strikes that are all are fight finishers.  Defanging the snake requires a number of strikes to a limb. 

I think we'll have to agree to disagree.     :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Mar 10, 2013)

That was a very interesting article that you shared.  Thanks.  I'd like to dig into the sources more when I have time.  Still, every journey begins with a step.  Maybe the step is wrong and you have to retrace your steps to the beginning and maybe you simply have to change directions.  I'll start with the kanji and learn as I go.



K-man said:


> You have made a number of assumptions about this kata that I would suggest apply to all kata. Because all kata are fighting systems, why is it this one is more advanced? All kata contain lethal techniques.



I have been practicing karate for a long time.  I started in 5th grade and I only began to understand that all kata could be complete fighting systems about 10 years ago.  I was told that many times before that, but I really didn't see it.  I didn't understand it until I could actually start to see the applications and possibilities in the movements.  This is important to keep in mind because I think we often take for granted how much we do know and how much our understanding of kata has evolved.  Imagine yourself as a beginner again.  The confusion, the practice, the body mechanics, they are all new and simple, less dangerous material is easier for them to grasp.

I see kata in much the same way.  The way I teach kata breaks it down and doles out the knowledge in small doses so that students don't get overwhelmed.  I start with the Pinan kata to get across the basics and approach the concepts of self defense in a simple, yet practical and effective way.  Passai kata is something that I teach after the Pinans, so it really is more appropriate to begin to address the more dangerous and advanced principles.  After Passai, I teach Naihanchi and I use that kata to transmit even more advanced principles.  Lastly, of the core kata that I teach, Kusanku and Chinto are where I'll draw it all together and make the point that all kata are stand alone systems and that all principles that were separated actually apply to all.  It's an understanding that can really help the students reinterpret what they have been taught and bring more life into the art.  I don't know how effective it is to start with that.  It certainly didn't work for me.  I had to have a certain level of experience before I could really understand that point.  

So, yeah, this discussion of principles is important, but the context of the system is important as well.  Without the context, it's just a confused mess and very few students will have the ability to unravel it.


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## K-man (Mar 10, 2013)

Makalakumu said:


> I have been practicing karate for a long time.  I started in 5th grade and I only began to understand that all kata could be complete fighting systems about 10 years ago.  I was told that many times before that, but I really didn't see it.  I didn't understand it until I could actually start to see the applications and possibilities in the movements.  This is important to keep in mind because I think we often take for granted how much we do know and how much our understanding of kata has evolved.  Imagine yourself as a beginner again.  The confusion, the practice, the body mechanics, they are all new and simple, less dangerous material is easier for them to grasp.
> 
> I see kata in much the same way.  The way I teach kata breaks it down and doles out the knowledge in small doses so that students don't get overwhelmed.  I start with the Pinan kata to get across the basics and approach the concepts of self defense in a simple, yet practical and effective way.  Passai kata is something that I teach after the Pinans, so it really is more appropriate to begin to address the more dangerous and advanced principles.  After Passai, I teach Naihanchi and I use that kata to transmit even more advanced principles.  Lastly, of the core kata that I teach, Kusanku and Chinto are where I'll draw it all together and make the point that all kata are stand alone systems and that all principles that were separated actually apply to all.  It's an understanding that can really help the students reinterpret what they have been taught and bring more life into the art.  I don't know how effective it is to start with that.  It certainly didn't work for me.  I had to have a certain level of experience before I could really understand that point.
> 
> So, yeah, this discussion of principles is important, but the context of the system is important as well.  Without the context, it's just a confused mess and very few students will have the ability to unravel it.


Looking back it would seem that information about the possible applications of kata in realistic fighting started about 20 years ago.  Unfortunately I was just going with the flow at that time.  I thought knowing kata was being able to perform lots of them. Now it's totally different. In some ways I think you are lucky to have the Pinan kata in your system as they were put together by Itosu as a teaching system.  Yamaguchi tried to do the same with his Taikyoku kata but I don't think he had the understanding of kata that Funakoshi possessed. Those kata in Goju Kai were just for practising basics, nothing to do with practical applications.  So, like you, my real martial art journey only began a bit over 10 years ago too.  But fortunately the knowledge snowballs.  

But, I don't have to imagine I am a beginner. I know first hand!   Three years ago when I was introduced to Masaji Taira's ideas it would have been appropriate to have tied on a fresh white belt because, boy, was that an experience. If we are to keep learning we will always have times when we are beginners again. The important thing is never to close the mind. It can always benefit from a breath of fresh air.    :asian:


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 11, 2013)

Moving the sequence along to "left spear hand, right punch, right inside out block, left punch, left inside out block."  I notice some variation here.  Some styles don't start with the left hand out prior to the punch.  Some styles emphasize a "wrap up" for the "inside out block", while others merely bend their elbow from the punch position.

  I know this is from Kanku/Kusanku/Kong Sang Kun, but it is the same movement in question:






Is this similar to a bunkai you use/teach, are there other uses that you teach/use?


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 12, 2013)

Again, basic interpretation that I was taught:  Left spearhand strike to the throat, right punch to the solar plexus, right inside out block, left punch to solar plexus, left inside out block.  Later applications were similar to what Mr. Abernethy shows above.  The first being that the "spearhand" was more of a block, which then grasps and pulls the attacker into your right punch, the "inside out block" then strikes the locked elbow of the grasped arm, thus turning the opponent.  Opening the face or kidney area for the left hand punch, then finishing with a back fist (inside out block).


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## dancingalone (Mar 12, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Again, basic interpretation that I was taught:  Left spearhand strike to the throat, right punch to the solar plexus, right inside out block, left punch to solar plexus, left inside out block.  Later applications were similar to what Mr. Abernethy shows above.  The first being that the "spearhand" was more of a block, which then grasps and pulls the attacker into your right punch, the "inside out block" then strikes the locked elbow of the grasped arm, thus turning the opponent.  Opening the face or kidney area for the left hand punch, then finishing with a back fist (inside out block).




The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available.  In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above.  In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 13, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available.  In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above.  In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.



I'll have to look at those segments from a Shorin-ryu perspective.  It's not something I'm very familiar with.  In our school, the movements in Bassai and Kong Sang Kun are identical.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 13, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available.  In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above.  In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.



"Hook hands" Is this similar to "sticky palm"?  i.e. blocking> grabbing>twisting> pulling?


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## dancingalone (Mar 13, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> "Hook hands" Is this similar to "sticky palm"?  i.e. blocking> grabbing>twisting> pulling?



Yes.  There are a series of dual action 'inverted knifehands' with the lead hand where at the same time the rear hand ends up in a guarding position across the torso.  When we worked applications, the ideas expressed invariably involved trapping the neck or shoulder or elbow joint while using the other arm to draw uke into yourself.

I guess the Iain Abernethy stuff above is the same stuff ultimately through expressed differently.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 14, 2013)

Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick.  But what about this?  From 0:51-0:57






I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.

Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 14, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick.  But what about this?  From 0:51-0:57
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I normally wouldnt comment, but im curious. Take these with a pinch of salt. This is just what i see, and im no expert.

The sequence I see:

Feet together, hands in > Hands come up > Step forward and bring both hands in an arcing motion outward then back in, followed by a lead straight punch/push.

The applications i see: 

#1; Grab the bottom of someones shirt, pull it up over their head, bring both hands back (do the motion. in this theory with the step back it just holds said shirt over the persons head), drive them back and let go with your rear hand so that you can use it for something whilst your lead hand keeps control of their head.
#2; Holding a baton by the handle and by the tip with the handle in your right hand, step in and strike straight up under someones chin, let go with your left hand, grab them using your left hand, then finish up by pushing their head back using the baton whilst pulling their arm back toward your hip, like a push with the baton to keep them at a distance before you move on to doing something else.


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## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.
> 
> Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.



One application my Matsubayashi sensei taught for this was a basic collar tie up or clinch.  The morote tsuki is the advancement of control over uke where you now have both arms in the v-shape of his frame.  Then instead of a reverse punch (jumping punch) as in Shotokan or TSD, we ended up in a side punch from a horse stance before turning to the rear into manji uke or swastika block before finishing the sequence with a very obvious shoulder throw.  Manji uke is the set up for the throw.


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## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2013)

Cyriacus said:


> #1; Grab the bottom of someones shirt, pull it up over their head, bring both hands back (do the motion. in this theory with the step back it just holds said shirt over the persons head), drive them back and let go with your rear hand so that you can use it for something whilst your lead hand keeps control of their head.



Too funny, but I can see a method to the madness.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 14, 2013)

Interesting ideas.  I can see where both of these could be effective, particularly the shirt.  I can't remember, do you/did you practice this form in your Taekwondo training?  or do you practice the newer form sets?  If you were taught this form, what were you told this movement was?  

I'm merely trying to get an idea of what different styles/practitioners are taught as movements in a form that span a large variety of arts.  

Thanks for your input!


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## TimoS (Mar 14, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Manji uke is the set up for the throw.



The way I see it, the manjiuke part is totally separate from what was done previously and it is e.g. a release from when someone grabs you. The next move is just the counterattack part.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 14, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Too funny, but I can see a method to the madness.


My full visualisation is dragging a shirt lip up over a head, pulling it tight and releasing one hand, all the while pushing the person back, then using the free hand to batter them with, for the sake of sticking to traditional sorts of things, forearm strikes to the head and neck, or possibly a Osoto Gari of some kind.

Id like to contort it into being grabbing the shirt around the shoulders, but thats stretching the interpretation a bit.
...iiiiif that didnt matter, id say bringing the hands up was grabbing the shirt just behind the shoulders, the step forward drove them back, and you pulled it up and out over their head. Then you held them with your front hand and got to work with the other. Same thing, just with a different grab. I didnt list that originally but because your hands dont really come towards you in the form, from what i can see.


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## dancingalone (Mar 14, 2013)

TimoS said:


> The way I see it, the manjiuke part is totally separate from what was done previously and it is e.g. a release from when someone grabs you. The next move is just the counterattack part.



It could be.  Is this the official Seibuken interpretation (does such a thing exist?)?

My sensei liked to have us consider any changes in application if we continued in the kata 1 more move or if we truncated by 1 move.  The application I described was one of his favorites.


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## TimoS (Mar 14, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> Is this the official Seibuken interpretation


No, not really. I'm not actually sure what the "official" bunkai for that part is, but the scenario I described is more of a self defence application I've picked up from a friend


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## Cyriacus (Mar 14, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Interesting ideas.  I can see where both of these could be effective, particularly the shirt.  I can't remember, do you/did you practice this form in your Taekwondo training?  or do you practice the newer form sets?  If you were taught this form, what were you told this movement was?
> 
> I'm merely trying to get an idea of what different styles/practitioners are taught as movements in a form that span a large variety of arts.
> 
> Thanks for your input!



Yay, i get to ramble a bit! 

I originally got half way through Tul. After a couple of school transfers i started on Palgwe, then  because of moving house im learning Taegeuk where i am now. One of the instructors here is all sorts of into interpreting applications, and ive recently hopped on board for the ride. One of the first things he covers is that were basically doing a significantly altered form of Karate, and that you shouldnt take the exact movements too literally because of how many variations of each move their are, but also that the same combinations and basic 'moves' can be found in different systems regardless, and that cant be a coincidence. 

So what im doing here is taking individual 'moves' im familiar with, or similar ones, and looking without being too strict or exact at ways i know to use them, then applying the logic to the combination in that video.

Given that weve somehow turned every Taegeuk up to Sa Jang into the gentle art of attacking (I think theres been one single solitary defensive move, in Ee Jang?) people with various weapons and chokes from behind, i feel like nows as good a time as ever to be open to criticism or praise in a public (forum) format 

I mostly listed off possible interpretations so that if you looked at different ways of doing the same form, you might see the ones i listed in them. Or you might not. But if you did, that might be interesting?


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 14, 2013)

To use the Japanese term, Manji Uke, since I don't know the Korean term.. . I like the Bubishi explanation as trapping a kick and throwing the opponent.

Similar to this:


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## K-man (Mar 14, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick.  But what about this?  From 0:51-0:57
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From my POV, I would go back to 0:47 and the kick. We call it Kansetsu geri or knee joint kick. At that point Nage turns 180 deg which signifies to me that the kick was into the back of the knee, turning Uke. With his back turned he cops two Shuto strikes to the back of the head. Instinctively, Uke would be lifting his arms to protect the head allowing Nage's hands to slip under the arms, lift up and apply a neck lock (Full Nelson). If that isn't working, Nage pushes him away and strikes on both sides of his head, to the ears. The next punch would be to the kidney.

:asian:


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 15, 2013)

K-man said:


> From my POV, I would go back to 0:47 and the kick. We call it Kansetsu geri or knee joint kick. At that point Nage turns 180 deg which signifies to me that the kick was into the back of the knee, turning Uke. With his back turned he cops two Shuto strikes to the back of the head. Instinctively, Uke would be lifting his arms to protect the head allowing Nage's hands to slip under the arms, lift up and apply a neck lock (Full Nelson). If that isn't working, Nage pushes him away and strikes on both sides of his head, to the ears. The next punch would be to the kidney.
> 
> :asian:



That's interesting.  I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before.  Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms?  I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps.  Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes.  However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!


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## dancingalone (Mar 15, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> That's interesting.  I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before.  Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms?  I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps.  Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes.  However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!



K-Man will surely clarify fully for himself, but I think this can be an aspect of Taira Sensei's (from Goju-ryu) teachings.  As I understand the concept, kata can be thought of as a continuum where each step can be assigned success or failure to varying degrees.  A reasonably high level of success in a move will end the fight right then and then.  Otherwise, it proceeds but regardless, you should be able to flow from move to move in the order specified in the kata as a response to ANYTHING your opponent throws at you. 

Did I get that right, K-Man? By all means, speak up as I am very interested in this. 

I've got to give K-Man some kudos.  K-Man is partially responsible from his postings here on MT for me planning a trip to train with Taira Sensei later this year.  I'm very interested in learning more about his thoughts on kata and bunkai as lineage wise I am very close to him, but he's clearly somewhat of a revolutionary in Goju-ryu right now.


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 15, 2013)

That is an interesting and helpful concept.  I'm sure I will see more applications looking at my forms from this perspective.


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## Never_A_Reflection (Mar 15, 2013)

I like K-Man's suggestion, although we don't do that kick in the versions of Passai that I practice, and I also like the suggestion of pulling someone's shirt over their head. For the double-high-block/double-hammerfist/punch sequence, I've learned several different applications. A basic one is that you are grabbed from behind and put into a full-nelson hold, then you either gouge their eyes or push back on your forehead with your hands to loosen their grip, then drop and drop your arms to break their grip, and then you grab one of their arms and use the "punch" to pull them into a rear elbow strike. It's not my favorite thing to do, but it does work unless there is a large size discrepancy. I also learned it as a joint lock (nikyo variant) used to counter a wrist grab, then you punch them after forcing them down with the lock. A fun and interesting one that my instructor is fond of is a defense against a shirt grab--you bring your arms up from underneath theirs, hook your thumbs under their jaw and lever their face backward and down, and from there the punch can be a strike to the throat or wrenching the head. Of course, this is all done in cat stances for us, so lead legs kicks, knee strikes, or sweeps can be incorporated as you see fit.

I have to say, I am most entertained by Funakoshi's application--I'm terribly fond of attackers who don't bring their hands back down after you lift them up :


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## SahBumNimRush (Mar 15, 2013)

Never_A_Reflection said:


> A basic one is that you are grabbed from behind and put into a full-nelson hold, then you either gouge their eyes or push back on your forehead with your hands to loosen their grip, then drop and drop your arms to break their grip, and then you grab one of their arms and use the "punch" to pull them into a rear elbow strike. It's not my favorite thing to do, but it does work unless there is a large size discrepancy.



I'll have to try this one out.. .



Never_A_Reflection said:


> I also learned it as a joint lock (nikyo variant) used to counter a wrist grab, then you punch them after forcing them down with the lock.



I use this one, but since we use a "jump punch" there is a knee strike prior to the punch.



Never_A_Reflection said:


> A fun and interesting one that my instructor is fond of is a defense against a shirt grab--you bring your arms up from underneath theirs, hook your thumbs under their jaw and lever their face backward and down, and from there the punch can be a strike to the throat or wrenching the head.



Sounds like that hurts!


Never_A_Reflection said:


> I have to say, I am most entertained by Funakoshi's application--I'm terribly fond of attackers who don't bring their hands back down after you lift them up :



HAHA!


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> That's interesting.  I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before.  Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms?  I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps.  Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes.  However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!


IMHO, a kata is a fighting system that runs from beginning to end.  Now if you would have to use the whole kata, I would suggest that you need to go back to study the basics because each move by itself should be a 'finishing' move. So when someone asks what a particular move in a kata might be, I go back to the previous one or two moves to find the context. Sometimes that can be obvious or sometimes quite obscure. Kicks make it a lot easier to find a reference. If there is a turn, that also helps to find an explanation. In the Bassai example there was both. If a version doesn't have the kick, it doesn't matter. Just look at what you have.

Back to the example and the Shuto strike to the back of the head should have been all it took, so, the individual technique alone should be enough.  But if under pressure and with an adrenalised opponent it isn't enough, you make up distance (second step) and hit him again. Iain Abernethy would suggest that you can keep using the same technique if it is not defended. (An example would be multiple hammer fist or elbow strikes.) by now our attacker should be on the ground but we haven't been able to get if over with. He raises his hands to protect his head, we slip under his arms and, to me, the raised hands are now on his head. That can break the neck. My understanding is that not only are these finishing moves but that those moves can be lethal. (All strikes are to Kyusho points.)

With that understanding, I look for the neck breaks of which there are many in most of the Goju kata.  These don't necessarily have to be used that way as once the attacker is on the ground you can end it with a kick or other such technique. This type of bunkai will only work if you are controlling your opponent at close range. That way we can work on 'predictive' response. Generally that means, controlling with one hand and hitting with the other.

But to summarise. Yes, I always look at a number of techniques, but I look at each one to be able to do the job and the next as the 'go to' move if the first one fails.        :asian:


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## K-man (Mar 15, 2013)

dancingalone said:


> K-Man will surely clarify fully for himself, but I think this can be an aspect of Taira Sensei's (from Goju-ryu) teachings.  As I understand the concept, kata can be thought of as a continuum where each step can be assigned success or failure to varying degrees.  A reasonably high level of success in a move will end the fight right then and then.  Otherwise, it proceeds but regardless, you should be able to flow from move to move in the order specified in the kata as a response to ANYTHING your opponent throws at you.
> 
> Did I get that right, K-Man? By all means, speak up as I am very interested in this.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the compliment.  Yes, Taira's teaching is a breath of fresh air.  I like to think of it that he has given us the key to the pantry. He has shown us how to make a cup cake and encouraged us to find out for ourselves how to make the wedding cake.   :asian:


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## Never_A_Reflection (Mar 15, 2013)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I'll have to try this one out.. .


  One addition I forgot to mention is that you can also pry their fingers off your head and lock them with the double-hammerfist movement, but I hate finger locks 


SahBumNimRush said:


> I use this one, but since we use a "jump punch" there is a knee strike prior to the punch.


  We consider cat stances to be placeholders for a lead leg kick, knee strike, or sweep, so we often would do the same as you 


SahBumNimRush said:


> Sounds like that hurts!


  Yeah, it feels pretty terrible if it's done correctly. It takes practice to get the lever action down, though--just pushing doesn't do much.


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