# Pressure points



## Eazy (Sep 10, 2010)

Just put this in something ive got interest in thats all any info or techneques or vids would be appreciated.
Heres one i found.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k1U2AVM4es&feature=fvw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mxEUS_as48&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTmanCg_r6k&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLiwmt45ahU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i3rYkiJLA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUr6lxaXQU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobAh1vUuxw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_T9avaf_k&feature=more_related


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## Chris Parker (Sep 10, 2010)

Hi Eazy,

Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but....



Eazy said:


> Just put this in something ive got interest in thats all any info or techneques or vids would be appreciated.
> Heres one i found.
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmEa0FN5DhY


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmEa0FN5DhY[/quote]

"Pressure Point Knock Out". This is not how someone falls when they are knocked out. The legs here retain support of the body, whereas in an actual knockout, they give way first.



Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k1U2AVM4es&feature=fvw


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k1U2AVM4es&feature=fvw[/quote]

"Choson Ninja Pressure Points" Well, Greg manages to get every single point wrong (he's usually out by an inch or so, sometimes a few inches), he seems to have no structure to which language he is describing the points with (to the point where I would probably be tempted to ask him to repeat them... just to see if he can), certainly far from Japanese for a "ninjutsu" system... Not something to be followed.




Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mxEUS_as48&feature=related




"Pressure Point Fighting" Well, this was a bit better, but really was just using mechanics (stopping the movement, and therefore absorption of the impact, by the neck and head), rather than specificly "pressure point fighting". And I'm highly doubtful that such a technique would be felt under adrenaline, you'd need to hit the base of the skull (really all he was doing) a lot harder, and then you'd still probably only rattle them for a second or so.



Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTmanCg_r6k&feature=related




"Pressure Point Body Technique". Okay, a straight shot down to the floating ribs, aimed down to affect the diaphragm. Cool. Some issues with the way he's doing it, but overall I've seen much worse. Really, the effect is heightened in the dojo, and you really do need far more power if you're going to try these things for real (against an adrenalised opponent).



Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLiwmt45ahU&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLiwmt45ahU&feature=related[/quote]

"Pressure Point Technique Against Punch". Er, no. The initial movement to push the guy away is just bad tactics (and not well done), the "stopping" hit to the head is not going to work the way he is doing it there (he will eat a very hard hit to the head), the inside of the thigh is not a "pressure point", it's just the femoral artery, and he's not going to get the best result with that kick, and the hits to the back of the head were only half of the time any more than an annoyance. Not a good one.

Oh, and for your information, a search to the site listed gives "related searches" including one Captain Chris (who I think may be the one "teaching" here?). You may want to read through this thread: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85005




Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i3rYkiJLA&feature=related


 
"Pressure Point Knock Out From a Punch". Not really convincing either. A shot to the point of the jaw when he's already unbalanced backwards, sure, I can see that as a knockout. But this doesn't cut it for me as the recouperation goes against all forms I've come across (hitting the back of the skull? The idea is to get oxygen back into the lungs, so you tend to work the diaphragm far more in these methods....), and the fall is again not what would be expected. He falls as he expects to fall, really.




Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUr6lxaXQU&feature=related


 
"Pressure Point Knockout Energy Dojo". Ah, this is a common method. The trick is in the timing.... you knock them backwards slightly, so they start to lean forward to balance themselves up again. As they hit the end of their forward correction, you hit them (angling slightly up) to the base of the skull with the hand they don't see (you only tell them to prepare for a light hit, and they think it's the first one that knocks them back). If you can tell them to keep their feet where they are (for their safety!) first, you get the toppling forward effect at the end. By standing the right distance away, they will reach to catch themselves on you, overbalance, and you immediately start to tell them "okay, okay, sit down, it's okay....", which helps convince them they were "knocked out" by your "gentle strike". Gotta love these things....

Now, to balance, I teach and train what some may refer to as "pressure points" in my system as well, but the reality of it is very different to these examples. The reality is that it is just an approach to targeting, and a fair amount of power and impact is often needed to get some kind of result (especially outside of a dojo, where adrenaline is a higher factor, and the other guy doesn't know he's supposed to fall down....). Gaining a high degree of precision with targeting is one thing, these parlour tricks are less impressive when you know how they're done... and you can see how far from any real use they are.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 10, 2010)

PS, I see you're modifying your post (again). If there's anything added I can comment on, I will, but my above post is in direct responce to your original (in full in the quotes, so everyone knows).


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## Eazy (Sep 10, 2010)

Thanks for your constructive views i check the link you suggested.
I agree that all or most these methods would be hard to pull off to someone with trained fighting skill, But may work well this someone well on the booze when most trouble starts, Im not one for the one hit knock outs they look very dangerous, Possably kill someone i think those neck strikes. but the idea was just to direct members to that area of youtube with a good opic and maybe they find something they like then bring it back here and converse over it amoung others. Yes sorry about the upgrade i found more i liked. I really appreciate your views though.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 10, 2010)

Two more? Okay, these are fun, aren't they?



Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobAh1vUuxw&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobAh1vUuxw&feature=related[/quote]

"A Pressure Point Knock Out". Ha, no it isn't. Again, no hallmarks of an actual knockout, for the main thing, the "rescussitation" is frankly bad, and this is more of a laugh than anything else.



Eazy said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_T9avaf_k&feature=more_related


 
"Pressure Point Knockout Neck Strikes" Well, the description itself says "clearly staged".... so I'm going to say.... no! But the guy on the left is certainly responsive, isn't he? See how much he moves even when not really being hit later in the clip? Good demo partner.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 10, 2010)

It's not that they'd be "hard" to pull off, it's that they'd be impossible to pull off without a partner (attacker) who knew he was supposed to fall down... and so you know, alcohol, being a muscle relaxant, would make these "techniques" even less likely to work, as the person you tried it on would be more able to "ride" the blows, and would be moving, making it harder for you to land any of them.


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## Drac (Sep 10, 2010)

I have attempted to demonstrate some of the pressure point techniques I have learned over the years on my family. NO ONE responded to them, not even my 110 lbs Niece. Some folks like myself respond to all of them.


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## oaktree (Sep 10, 2010)

>


 
If you are being knocked out it's doubtful you will be able to keep your grip on someone.He also does a classic trained side break fall haha.



> _http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k1U2AVM4es&feature=fvw_


 
I wish I knew I would have known I was going to see 2 guys put stickers on each other ahead of time people are now wondering what kinda of sticker fetish I have...:uhohh:

Choson Ninja is one of the worse references to anything.
I heard Chinese name for the points I thought I heard Japanese and Korean for some of the points too. It would have been better if he just said it in Chinese or say the Jingluo and # instead of me having to be my own babel fish for myself.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-mxEU...eature=related


 That is like a shock hit better than the other two but I find that hard to define as pressure point use.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTmanCg_r6k&feature=related


 
Basically he is describing a body shot. Not really pressure point.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLiwm...eature=related


 This actually started off as a decent technique.
If you have his head there are so many possibilities The soccer kick to the groin ok not what I would do but not bad then he talks about a pressure point!! Forget the point you had his head you could have easily kneed his face or went for a choke or anything but that pressure point.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8i3rYkiJLA&feature=related


 
I thought he said SI-17 Tian rong near Jugular vein LI-17 Tian ding near Jugular vein. But he said SI-18 Quan Liao and LI-18 Fu tu. I doubt that will cause you to pass out. At least if you pressed the jugular vein it might cause you to black out. Haha he said Governing vessel first(which is correct) but he then changed it to Conception which is the front haha.
All I can think of is man those people are paying all that money for this.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_NUr6lxaXQU&feature=related


 
That was terrible. And the last 20 seconds of him massaging him was just creepy. If you notice he starts the demo with hair but the master hits him so hard his hair falls off.



> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YobAh1vUuxw&feature=related


 
She said "Hado ken!! right? That was terible too....


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xo_T9avaf_k&feature=more_related


 
So many of these guys who do these knock out demos are creepy and old. 

There are point that can knock a person out but they are not any mystical nonsense. They line up with Western anatomy.

I give you the Acupuncture names and tell you the English location:
CV-23 Lian Quan= basically Adam's apple
CV-24 Cheng =what boxers call the Button or the Chin
MHN-3 Yin Tang= center between the eyes
MHN-9 Tai Yang-near temple
GB-20 Feng chi= base of the skull
TB-22 He Liao=near temple superficial artery passes


I left out points I know.


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## Eazy (Sep 11, 2010)

Thanks for taking so much effort for a really good view. Im impressed with you knowlege of the points I'll get them down on paper. Thankyou.


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## oaktree (Sep 11, 2010)

> Thanks for taking so much effort for a really good view. Im impressed with you knowlege of the points I'll get them down on paper. Thankyou.


 
Well since you are interested in those points..... You should learn what they are used for better to heal then to harm.

*CV-23*


> *Chinese Name* Lian Quan
> *English Name* Ridge Spring
> Location: At the upper border of hyoid bone.
> Point Associations:
> ...


 *CV-24*


> *Chinese Name* Cheng Jian
> *English Name* Sauce Receptacle
> 
> Location: At the center of the mentolabial groove directly below the lip.
> ...


*MHN-3*


> *Chinese Name* Yintang
> *English Name* Hall of Seal
> Location: Midway between the medial ends of the eyebrows
> Actions & Effects:
> ...


*MHN-9*


> *Chinese Name* Taiyang
> *English Name* Great Sun
> Location: At temple, in a depression about 1 cun posterior to the midpoint between the lateral end of the eyebrow and the outer canthus of the eye.
> Precautions: No Moxa.
> ...


*GB-20*


> *Chinese Name* Feng Chi
> *English Name* Wind Pool
> Location: In a depression between the upper portion of the sternocleidomastoid muscle and the trapezius, level with GV 16
> Point Associations:
> ...


*TB-22*


> *Chinese Name* Erheliao
> *English Name* Harmony Bone Hole
> 
> Location: Anterior and superior to TH 21 level with the root of the auricle on posterior border of hairline of the temple where superficial temporal artery passes.
> ...


 

I would like to thank http://www.yinyanghouse.com
For supplying the points because I am to lazy to type it all.


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## Eazy (Sep 11, 2010)

Dose anyone know the pressure points on a cat?.

I want to throw my energy into my cats sensory system and knock him out without touching him for practice.

I know it can be done ive seen priests do it in church, Yep they make people drop all the time it can be done.

I asked my missus if i could drop her she said she was thinking about leaving my _ss anyway, Geeze that was nice.


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## oaktree (Sep 11, 2010)

> Dose anyone know the pressure points on a cat?.
> 
> I want to throw my energy into my cats sensory system and knock him out without touching him for practice.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.heliomed.com/Images/BC-131-l.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=acupuncture+for+cat&aq=f
I do not know much about the subject. I only know it exist. I have no idea
the history,theory or training for it. I will see if someone with more qualifications can speak on behalf of it.


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## Eazy (Sep 11, 2010)

LOL, I was only joking Haha you got me back, but hey thats great i give that to my missus Shes a Veterinary Surgeon. She used to work for the RSPCA.
Im sure she would be aware of this but hey its great i'll print her off one and suprise her with it.


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## rlp271 (Sep 11, 2010)

Any time you see the words "no-touch" and knockout in the same sentence, it's the power of suggestion.  All those seminar tapes you see, and what you see in churches, is the power of suggestion at work.  If you tell someone that by doing A, B will happen, enough times, they believe it on a subconscious level.  To put it in vernacular, they drink the Kool-aid.  I give you this video:






You have to watch it to the end, but you'll see how an untrained person, who has not done martial arts with George Dillman responds to one of Dillman's high ranking student's attempt at a no-touch knockout.  This is another kiai master debunked:






This isn't to say chi/ki doesn't exist or that pressure points and acupuncture points don't exist.  A parallel can be drawn between what western science has dubbed electrical impulses and what Eastern medicine has dubbed chi or ki.  Interrupt the flow, and things tend to shut down.  That's what happens when they use a defibrillator.  They shock two bundles of nerves to stop your heart because it isn't beating correctly.  The muscles then reset themselves and start beating at a normal rhythm.  Saying you can actively throw your body's energy at someone else though, that's going to take a lot more convincing and empirical evidence for it to be accepted as fact.  I'm rather fond of what Master Young told my instructor, "I know pressure points exist, but if I hit you hard enough, it doesn't matter if it's a pressure point or not."


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm gonna piggy-back on ya, Chris.



Chris Parker said:


> Hi Eazy,
> 
> Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but....
> 
> "]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmEa0FN5DhY


[/url]

"Pressure Point Knock Out". This is not how someone falls when they are knocked out. The legs here retain support of the body, whereas in an actual knockout, they give way first.[/quote]

Agreed this doesn't look like a knockout. Either power of suggestion, or _maybe_ he saw the white lights (got stunned). I'd think it possibly the latter, since he retained his grip on the gi, and he got struck on the right-side jugular. I have been white-lighted a couple of times getting hit right there.

However, even though it's possible to at least stun the guy for this setup, my main objection to this is the uke is totally relaxed and complacent... making it really easy to stun or knock out, regardless. People react differently to strikes if they're resisting or amped up. That's actually my sticking point for all of these videos.




> Now, to balance, I teach and train what some may refer to as "pressure points" in my system as well, but the reality of it is very different to these examples. The reality is that it is just an approach to targeting, and a fair amount of power and impact is often needed to get some kind of result (especially outside of a dojo, where adrenaline is a higher factor, and the other guy doesn't know he's supposed to fall down....). Gaining a high degree of precision with targeting is one thing, these parlour tricks are less impressive when you know how they're done... and you can see how far from any real use they are.


 

And I might add, not everyone HAS all the pressure points. my wife, for instance, has never had the expected reaction to the pressure point on the top of the forearm. And not for lack of people trying. I've also had a number of students that were the same way (oddly, most of them were women). And for those to do react to pressure point strikes, I have seen people get desensitized to them, or people who have had surgery or who have cerebral pasly who don't react the same way that most people do. (Before anyone gets angry about me doing pressure points with someone with CP... that guy's a mean little bastard when we spar. Don't underestimate him or you'll go flying over his wheel chair.)


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 12, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> Any time you see the words "no-touch" and knockout in the same sentence, it's the power of suggestion. All those seminar tapes you see, and what you see in churches, is the power of suggestion at work. If you tell someone that by doing A, B will happen, enough times, they believe it on a subconscious level. To put it in vernacular, they drink the Kool-aid.


 
I know an instructor that "demonstrates" that a no touch hit can knock a person back. Then after the onlookers ask him how it worked, he reponds "it worked on you because at least a part of you believed, or wanted to believe, that it would.

He then will procede to lecture on the dangers of buying into what people tell you, and why a healthy dose of skepticism is always called for.


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## Eazy (Sep 12, 2010)

Yes well ive watched the first on right though and there is alot of +s comming from a 9th dan raises concerns in conjunction as highlited with his earlier comments good find. 
I'll look at the other now.


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## Eazy (Sep 12, 2010)

You don't supose that is is over confidence in ones own self with the high black belt level and trainers trying to find that new unmastered skill.
I don't think the idea is stupid any more im glad i started the thread.
Ive got a new look on the pshycology of it all and i think alot of it has to do with that.
Thes masters believe within their rights that they can find that extra power or energy its like chassing the martial art Holy grail if you will. 
No Battle was won without will and these masters are warriors they are mind set and knowing the power of the mind if they can learn to sync it and they may or someone may one day.
Its a mystery and while its that well who knows where it will end up but curainly nowhere if no one studies it.
we can make our selves lighter or dead weight =heavy'er thats something aswell. 
Like walking on eggs its a step towards mind controll and levetation somethng eles but i think these thing all link some how.
Only masters can navigate uncarted waters i guess.
As it stands today i personaly would not go and buy a how to vid on it but maybe it has enough info to give someone the tools to forward achiving something in that direction, So not nessasarily a complete waste of money if your a martial arts resercher. Chi Wow


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## Eazy (Sep 12, 2010)

Ok so now they can hone that skill the next step is to be able to make someone you don't know believe within seconds ( Maybe not that impossable) with years of practice. Ide like to see a demo one someone unsuspected of the demo even happening and see what happens. 
It maybe not a case of the person not being tapped in but the person fighting against the suggestion because they know what the test is and they defy it. 
So not even a normal mind but a closed mind to the suggestion. 
It would be very hard to set up. but could be done if the practitionor did not have a uniform on and just looked normal get some one to stand back and film at a park or something. it would look very wierd for the resevor but you get those TV pranksters doing wierd stuff so not impossable.


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## Eazy (Sep 12, 2010)

Don't give up if your interested keep honning in on it and practicing these skills keep reserching it obviously takes years maybe even longer than it takes to get a high level black belt.
Ive put some other suggestions in here on some methods of what one might try.
Im not a skilled martial artists but i still have some thoughts on this topic.


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## Eazy (Sep 12, 2010)

Levetation exposed




 
I kow this is off topic well sort of its still suposed to be a mind power and this is not an attempt for me to suggest that it is impossable but merrly a base for reserch for those looking into it.
There are many more flicks avalable in the same page to kick you off so have a look. But i suggest if you are interested in these type of topics then one must go in with as has been repeated an open mind.
If you don't go in with an open mind its hard to walk through closed doors.
But to know what is real you must know what is not.
Then begins the search for truth.


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## Master Dan (Sep 12, 2010)

FIRST:

Presure points in general are tied to the 12 meridians and to hard or soft organs!! Some shut the brain down so quickly before the legs fold.

Others such as Gall Blader effect the legs and collaps the legs but the person may still be awake.

First and formost all you guys over 40 must not have more than 15 minutes manipulation in two weeks. I watch a bunch of macho law enforcement and corrections people play MMA and youger guys were manipulating areas that can cause stroke or heart atack up to 7 years later from Plaque released in the blood.

Youn Boys young dumb full of cum go ahead beat each other but you older guys need to wise up!!!!!!!!!

I know people with permanent organ and other problems nation wide due to oh oh please pick me pick me knock me out by people who do not care what or know what the end result to thier healt will be geeeeeeeeeez 

grow up study dont just speculate


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

Ok you make some good valid points and that is appeciated, But this is a ongoing thread and your comment of awarness of damage is good but in the future you could tone down the other comments please.
Its not like anyone here is going to go out and strike pressure points tomorrow, I certainly hope not anyway.
The purpose of the thread is to understand where they are and what effects they have.
Its handy to know if i accidently hit someone there and they start flopping around on the floor i may know why and massage them back.
This was more my idea Awarness.
It seems you know alot about the subject and i encourage you to keep particapating with links of damage being done etc. 
That would be a more constructive way of helping with the topic.
If i wanted or was inclined to do what you seem to be suggesting then you have a lot of commets to make for all those showing on youtube where i would have stayed but i come here to learn from a good variety of skilled people.
This topic has evolved very nicely from where it started and im enjoying it, Its giving me direction for research. 
Thankyou.
Written without prejudice


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## oaktree (Sep 13, 2010)

> Presure points in general are tied to the 12 meridians and to hard or soft organs!! Some shut the brain down so quickly before the legs fold.


 
I would very much like to know what points you are talking about specific that you can press or needle that knocks a person out.




> Others such as Gall Blader effect the legs and collaps the legs but the person may still be awake.


Can you give me the point or points pressed to achieve this?
I mean if you press like GB-33 Xi Yang guan which is the knee joint I suppose the leg would "collapse" and you would fall but thats not mystical thats just basic anatomy.



> First and formost all you guys over 40 must not have more than 15 minutes manipulation in two weeks. I watch a bunch of macho law enforcement and corrections people play MMA and youger guys were manipulating areas that *can cause* stroke or heart atack up to 7 years later from Plaque released
> in the blood.


What points are you refering to? How would you or anyone be able to test 
that the point pressed  caused the plaque to be released 7 years later? 



> I know people with permanent organ and other problems nation wide due to oh oh please pick me pick me knock me out by people who do not care what or know what the end result to thier healt will be geeeeeeeeeez


 What organ or organs were damaged? What points were used? 

I look forward to your reponse.


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## rlp271 (Sep 13, 2010)

First, I don't believe in no-touch knockouts.  I also don't think you can do that much convincing in the short amount of time an attack happens.  Maybe if you did a Mindfreak thing like Chris Angel, or whatever that show was called.  That might work, because you have time to work the crowd and get them into the idea.  Other than that, I wouldn't count on it in a self-defense situation.  Also, Dillman goes to great lengths at the end of the interview to explain why it may not have worked saying things about the placement of the tongue in the mouth or the toes on the ground.  Why would you want to rely on something that is so finicky?

@Master Dan, first off, I'm just going to call you Dan if you don't mind since I don't know your last name.  No offense, but you're not my master, and even my master asks us to call him Mr. Brown.  I don't think anyone said that meridians and pressure points don't exist.  A lot of us have just said that they aren't reliable.  Not everyone has the same sensitivity, and in a non-training situation, the precision necessary to execute pressure point strikes just isn't worth it.  A few are easily accessible, and easily activated, but the majority are not.

As far as delayed death is concerned, too many cheeseburgers could cause a major buildup of lipids on the walls of my coronary arteries and an eventual blockage leading to a heart attack.  I'm not going to write it off completely, and you should never take lightly things that can't be fully tested, like delayed death via pressure points, but still, I'd rather train to win a self-defense situation outright sans pressure points than say, "You just crushed my face, but don't worry in 40 years my vibrating palm technique will explode your liver."


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

I agree this would be good to see something to back up those comments.


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## rlp271 (Sep 13, 2010)

You seriously had me thinking, "Is this guy insane?" with the cat pressure point comment.


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

Haha got ya, i was just being funny. 
But here's a chart link its a fairly good one till i find better.
http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/3846/kyusho0db.gif


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## Chris Parker (Sep 13, 2010)

Hi Eazy,

That list is a basic one very similar to the ones from Koto Ryu and Takai Ryu. So you know, though, it's not really "pressure points", or Dim Mak, it's a system of targeting refered to as Kyusho. There's a difference between them, really.

To really get the best out of something like this, it needs to be combined with the education of how to approach each target, what strikes are suited to it, what angles to use (that'll change for the same point depending on the system studied, so you know), without that it's mostly just a list of points. Think of it like learning a bunch of words from a language, but not how to put them into sentences.


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## frank raud (Sep 13, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> First and formost all you guys over 40 must not have more than 15 minutes manipulation in two weeks. I watch a bunch of macho law enforcement and corrections people play MMA and youger guys were manipulating areas that can cause stroke or heart atack up to 7 years later from Plaque released in the blood.
> 
> 
> grow up study dont just speculate


 
So, is it reasonable that if 15 minutes every 2 weeks is too much, that say 10 minutes every 2 weeks would be sufficient to release smaller amounts of plaque(up to 7 years later), which would in fact extend the life span of the practioners? Or would this be too hard to attribute to manipulating pressure points almost a decade earlier?

What studies have you done that provide any kind of conclusive information that pressure point manipulation can cause death UP TO 7 years later? Or is that just speculation?


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

You got it yep its from the same martial art you do. Ninjutsu out of one of there books im lead to believe.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 13, 2010)

Yeah, trust me, I'm going to recognise our terminology. As said though, the points are rather useless without the requisite training that goes along with it, for the most part. For instance, what can you tell me about jakkin, exactly where it is, how it is best approached etc? Or hoshi ita? Or in, which is given a different name in your list, by the way....

My point is that learning the points for interests sake is fine, but it is not to be confused with actually learning the points properly. So while you may have a list, it's like having a book listing ingrediants for a cake without the recipe or a kitchen.


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

I agree and its a bit of a mud map, I would try anything like that till trained but its interesting to touch around those areas on my self and feel the sensation of discomfort and realise the likleyhood of serious impact.
I had a good flick off youtube these two blokes fight on the street for real and one guy hit the other on the side of the neck with a forearm and that guy was shaking on the ground like electricity going through him. everyone just standing around doing nothing.
I think learning how to reverse it before applying it is the key. The after massage is critical even if you don't like the attacker.


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

I found it, check this out. 
This guy drops the other and before the other bloke hits the ground he punches him in the head back onto his feet then the next erious knock is towars the end when the drops hin with a forearm across the neck the guy hits the deck and is in a kind of fit.
Its a serious Knock out and well caught on flim.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-SiUA0w2jrE&feature=related


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 13, 2010)

It would be fascinating to see the research that went into this! (ie. the 7 year claim)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 13, 2010)

*Pressure Nerve Points* as we call them in IRT can be effective and a method of knocking out an attacker, stunning or inflicting non lasting pain.  They do work well some of the time but of course each individual and violent encounter is different.  PNP's should be utilized within a structure where they are not the only thing that could happen. Take the following clip where I could affect the Hypoglossal as well as the Brachial Plexus (Neck).

[yt]_6od5XciSq8[/yt]

*The above* could just as easily affect the jaw on both sides skip the PNP's and affect a knockout or structural damage.  I could easily do the above from a boxing mode where I do a cover parry folowed by an uppercut or a hook!  With PNP's they should work in conjunction with your movement and with striking, trapping, locking, grappling, etc.  They can be utilized with body tools or by man made tools.  They also should work in conjunction with vital points.  Professionally I have used them a few times with good effects.  I have also known people to not have good results as well.  Bottom line is you should not build your personal protection house around them but have them there to help or augment if needed *but not the foundation!*  No magic just good body mechanics!!!

Shameless plug: We offere a CD on our PNP's at our IRT store!


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 13, 2010)

Eazy said:


> This guy drops the other and before the other bloke hits the ground he punches him in the head back onto his feet then the next erious knock is towars the end when the drops hin with a forearm across the neck the guy hits the deck and is in a kind of fit



I don't want to be pedantic, honestly, but your sentences would be much easier to understand with some proper punctuation.


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

I wish i could mate, I really wish i could. 
Im aware of it and just do my best, Im not that good at spelling either.
I try to breake the sentences up cause i just write how i talk and some times i get stuck to find places to break the sentences so i use a comma here and there.
Believe me im alot better than i used to be.

Chris Parker asked me to seperate questions and frazes i think or organise them so things arnt so bunched up.
Its a work in progress i'll keep focused on it, Thanks for letting me know.
Ok , I just went and looked at the sentence you was refering to, Yes it was bad even for me. I apologize.

What did you think of that strick to the neck?. 
It didn't look that intentional, I thought he was going for a hit then didn't connect and turned it into a push with the forearm that could have hit a few pressure points.
It was more of a push than a hit and didn't appear that powerfull and thats what makes me think of pressure points. 
He defenetly new some form of martial arts though, The way he got in close to tip the guy up but was told not to.
He was keeping it a street fight or boxing i mean. Street fight = (no rules) in my book.
I don't know what it is that makes people not follow through with their momentum and follow what their mates say, He could well have lost because of that.
Once commited to a move don't turn back i think.
Thanks again for picking that sentence up it helps if people remind me, I must have got a bit carried away when i found the flick ide been looking for.


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

For *Brian R Vancise*, Nasty and very effective, Thanks again for the flick.


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## jks9199 (Sep 13, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I don't want to be pedantic, honestly, but your sentences would be much easier to understand with some proper punctuation.





Eazy said:


> I wish i could mate, I really wish i could.
> Im aware of it and just do my best, Im not that good at spelling either.
> I try to breake the sentences up cause i just write how i talk and some times i get stuck to find places to break the sentences so i use a comma here and there.
> Believe me im alot better than i used to be.
> ...



First note, on writing...  See Strunk & White.  It's worth purchasing the book, really... It's not very expensive.  ($7 to $10, US)  This online edition isn't bad -- but there have been a few revisions in subsequent editions.

Second, on pressure points in general.  There are three broad types, to me.  You have anatomical points that compromise structures, like popping the back of the knee someone's standing on.  Not a true "pressure point" but you get a reaction from pressure there, so I'm calling it a pressure point.  You then have physiologic or nervous points.  These are areas where nerves are vulnerable to attack, like the brachial plexus or hypoglossal.  These vary in different people (good luck finding them on my arms or shoulders, for example...), and work to varying degrees on different people subject to their pain tolerance, which gets effected by physiology, nervous arousal, and chemical influences.  Finally, there are the acupuncture points.  Lots of claims are made for these.  I haven't seen many work reliably under controlled conditions...  and these are the ones that often get excuses for why they didn't work.  (Dillman's "lifted his toe" explanation among the most egregious!)


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## Eazy (Sep 13, 2010)

Great i checked it out, i'll do that.
 Ive wanted to do an Ebook for some time and this has been a barrier.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 13, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> First, I don't believe in no-touch knockouts. I also don't think you can do that much convincing in the short amount of time an attack happens. Maybe if you did a Mindfreak thing like Chris Angel, or whatever that show was called. That might work, because you have time to work the crowd and get them into the idea. Other than that, I wouldn't count on it in a self-defense situation. Also, Dillman goes to great lengths at the end of the interview to explain why it may not have worked saying things about the placement of the tongue in the mouth or the toes on the ground. Why would you want to rely on something that is so finicky?


 
This is why you don't see no-touch in actual combat. Only in demonstrations. And even then, it works because people are gullible.


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## rlp271 (Sep 13, 2010)

Josh Oakley said:


> This is why you don't see no-touch in actual combat. Only in demonstrations. And even then, it works because people are gullible.



Oh yeah, I know.  That's why I said, I seriously don't believe in them in the least.  I posted the Dillman video and the video of the kiai master getting KO'd.  That's actually why sites like bullshido exist.  We can all say what we want about their general site, where there's a lot of sarcasm and swearing at each other, but their Martial Arts BS section is great.  They bust frauds.  Which is something everyone who got proper training wants to do.

I just said why rely on something so finicky as a, "Why even bother with it?" kind of statement.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 14, 2010)

Ive been training pressure point attacks for years.

Wanna know which secret techniques I use?

- Punch to the throat/adams apple

- Kick to the groin

- Palm to the nose

Ta-da!

Good thing all those "pressure points" are along the center line of a human body eh? Makes all those centerline attacks in Chun just that bit more handy 

No 5 Point Palm Exploding Heart technique. Just hitting people where it hurts. No single finger jabs or techniques requiring ridiculous levels of precison, just a good old punch on the nose does the job quite well I can assure you!


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 14, 2010)

Josh Oakley said:


> This is why you don't see no-touch in actual combat. Only in demonstrations. And even then, it works because people are gullible.



Actual combat, no, not to my knowledge.
But you don't need to be especially gullible for things like that to work.
Search youtube for 'Derren brown'. He can play all sorts of tricks with the human mind that defy reason. One of them is performing a no-touch knockout on a martial artist who doesn't even know him or know what is going to happen.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2010)

rlp271 said:


> Oh yeah, I know. That's why I said, I seriously don't believe in them in the least. I posted the Dillman video and the video of the kiai master getting KO'd. That's actually why sites like bullshido exist. We can all say what we want about their general site, where there's a lot of sarcasm and swearing at each other, but their Martial Arts BS section is great. They bust frauds. Which is something everyone who got proper training wants to do.
> 
> I just said why rely on something so finicky as a, "Why even bother with it?" kind of statement.


 
problem is they're not incredibly great fact-checkers.


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## K-man (Sep 15, 2010)

It seems there are two types of martial artists on this forum. Those who train using vital points and those that think vital points don't have practical application if indeed they exist at all.
Personally, I teach vital points. To my mind, if I'm going to strike someone and I see an opening, I am going to strike that area as hard as I can. If there is a vital point in that target area I will try to hit it. If I succeed, great. If I fail my strike is still as effective as someone who is just hitting blindly.
Now back to the list of vids in the OP.  Amongst those were a couple of Russell Stutely's tapes that were given a bit of a bath.  I have a lot of time for RS and have a number of his DVDs.  One of those vids was of Russell's BAR system and believe me it is not only easy to use and logical ... it also works like a treat.  I was disappointed that they were dismissed as ineffective. So, my suggestion is, don't put things down for the sake of bagging vital point strikes.  Sure there are some charletans out there (eg Kiai Master!), but not all are bad.
Now as to the no touch KO. I've never seen it so I can't make a judgement.  If there are people on the forum who have experienced a no touch ko, or an attempt at one, I'd like to here from them. If, like me, you have had that opportunity then how can you say it's BS or not? I've seen many people put down to the floor without being touched, NOT ko'd, although it wasn't effective against me. 
Sorry if this sounds like a rant but it annoys me when people make strong comments in areas of which they have no knowledge or understanding.  :asian:


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## fighter_x (Sep 15, 2010)

I think there are two sides to that coin when it comes to vital points. There are of course vital points, such as those taught in atemi waza in various Karate systems, and then there are those points along meridians taught from Chinese based systems. I don't have the authority, or quite frankly, the knowledge to debate intelligently on the validity of the Chinese pressure points. On the other side of the coin, it is plain to see that there are quite a few "vital areas" that make sense to strike over other areas. A minor study in anatomy will prove that, and it doesn't require a lot of memory to strike them as needed.

When these questions arise at my school, I have always used this little saying, and mind you its strictly my opinion:

"If you apply enough pressure anywhere, they'll get the point".

54b2e298-d945-4ef4-8095-50bb7a9e0f2b
1.03.01


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## BloodMoney (Sep 15, 2010)

In hundreds of stories, posts, conversations with Security/military/LEO, conversations with students, countless news stories, countless security jobs, training etc I have never seen or even heard of someone using a pressure point effectively in self defense. _Ever_. Above the usual I should say (ie: punching someones nose or kicking them in the groin).

Im not saying they dont exist. Of course they do (look at acupuncture etc) I just question their effectiveness in the heat of combat thats all.

Any pressure point that isnt obvious and easy to target with a flurry of strikes just isnt that practical imo. And whats worse ive seen tough guys take carefully measured and accurate strikes to many of these areas in training and without a flinch, they just dont work on everyone (though theoretically they _should).

_The nose, throat, shins, jaw, groin, base of the neck etc, excellent pressure points that are very easy to strike. Pinching people under their arms, tweaking wrists etc...try that on a big guy whos really intent on messing you up (let alone a trained martial artist or MMA figher) and see what happens. It _might _work, maybe 1 or 2 times out of 5 even, but _might_ just isnt good enough for me personally.



fighter_x said:


> "If you apply enough pressure anywhere, they'll get the point".



+1


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## K-man (Sep 16, 2010)

BloodMoney said:


> Any pressure point that isnt obvious and easy to target with a flurry of strikes just isnt that practical imo. And whats worse ive seen tough guys take carefully measured and accurate strikes to many of these areas in training and without a flinch, they just dont work on everyone (though theoretically they _should)._
> 
> The nose, throat, shins, jaw, groin, base of the neck etc, excellent pressure points that are very easy to strike. Pinching people under their arms, tweaking wrists etc...try that on a big guy whos really intent on messing you up (let alone a trained martial artist or MMA figher) and see what happens. It _might _work, maybe 1 or 2 times out of 5 even, but _might_ just isnt good enough for me personally.


You are quite right. That's why I prefer to call them 'vital points' more than 'pressure points'. There are a number of points on the head that are useful in controlling someone when you don't want to hit them. 
Referring back to the Russell Stutely vids in the OP. His BAR tactic is based on the flinch response followed by heavy hand strike to the temples. From experience, that puts an attacker down real quick. The follow up strikes would not normally be required. In his other vid, the kick to the inside of the thigh slows someone down very effectively. :asian:


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## BloodMoney (Sep 18, 2010)

K-man said:


> That's why I prefer to call them 'vital points' more than 'pressure points'.



Nice, yeah were the same really, good way to put it.


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## Eazy (Dec 17, 2010)

Hi all Im back. http://www.youtube.com/user/sakenpo
This channel has alot of good info on wrist locks pressure points. Jim Brassard is a good instructor and is very clear with instruction. I'll just give his main channel here.


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## Eazy (Feb 4, 2011)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG
This is the best pressure point chart i could find im sure you will agree. if you go to this link the the chart will be there place your cursor over it and click to enlearge. please read the detail below the chart.
I found the outer shoulder area has two interesting pressure points for striking they seem to be a good target as if hit hard enough and miss the points you may well dislocate the shoulder of an attacker. Feeling around for the points on my own shoulder i found them quick enough and also very painfull the two points being close together make them a broard target.


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## Eazy (Feb 4, 2011)

Eazy said:


> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fc/Chinese_meridians.JPG
> This is the best pressure point chart i could find im sure you will agree. if you go to this link the the chart will be there place your cursor over it and click to enlearge. please read the detail below the chart.
> I found the outer shoulder area has two interesting pressure points for striking they seem to be a good target as if hit hard enough and miss the points you may well dislocate the shoulder of an attacker. Feeling around for the points on my own shoulder i found them quick enough and also very painfull the two points being close together make them a broard target.


 correction one major striking target in front of the shoulder two at the back of the shoulder. The one at the front is very painfull.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 4, 2011)

Hi Eazy,

Meridians are not pressure points, they're flow channels for energy, and the specific points are more related to acupressure and acupuncture than "pressure points". They do overlap to a degree, but taking them as the same as each other isn't correct.m Oh, and dislocating from a hard strike to the shoulder is a little optomistic, I feel.

That said, for a diagram, it's pretty good.


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## Eazy (Feb 4, 2011)

K-man said:


> It seems there are two types of martial artists on this forum. Those who train using vital points and those that think vital points don't have practical application if indeed they exist at all.
> Personally, I teach vital points. To my mind, if I'm going to strike someone and I see an opening, I am going to strike that area as hard as I can. If there is a vital point in that target area I will try to hit it. If I succeed, great. If I fail my strike is still as effective as someone who is just hitting blindly.
> Now back to the list of vids in the OP. Amongst those were a couple of Russell Stutely's tapes that were given a bit of a bath. I have a lot of time for RS and have a number of his DVDs. One of those vids was of Russell's BAR system and believe me it is not only easy to use and logical ... it also works like a treat. I was disappointed that they were dismissed as ineffective. So, my suggestion is, don't put things down for the sake of bagging vital point strikes. Sure there are some charletans out there (eg Kiai Master!), but not all are bad.
> Now as to the no touch KO. I've never seen it so I can't make a judgement. If there are people on the forum who have experienced a no touch ko, or an attempt at one, I'd like to here from them. If, like me, you have had that opportunity then how can you say it's BS or not? I've seen many people put down to the floor without being touched, NOT ko'd, although it wasn't effective against me.
> Sorry if this sounds like a rant but it annoys me when people make strong comments in areas of which they have no knowledge or understanding. :asian:


Good point. Pressure or vital points may be used by law enforcment once someone is in cuffs to controll them or maybe security. Sometimes vital points provoke agression if used unessasarilly by law enforcment some police like to try them out on cuffed people to see if they work at all im sure and they do hurt so it becomes like poking a wild animal in a cage with a stick (not good).


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## Eazy (Feb 4, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Eazy,
> 
> Meridians are not pressure points, they're flow channels for energy, and the specific points are more related to acupressure and acupuncture than "pressure points". They do overlap to a degree, but taking them as the same as each other isn't correct.m Oh, and dislocating from a hard strike to the shoulder is a little optomistic, I feel.
> 
> That said, for a diagram, it's pretty good.


 Yep thnks Chris i have put a new chart here that tells me exactly that.


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## Eazy (Feb 4, 2011)

http://www.seiwakai.co.za/html/karate_pressure_points.html
Another chart.


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