# Victim Stabs Mugger, Accomplice Charged With Murder



## tellner (Feb 22, 2009)

From a story in SF Gate:



> told his friend on a cell phone that he had a bad feeling about two men approaching him at the Fruitvale BART Station in Oakland.
> ...
> one suspect, Victor Veliz, 18, held a folding knife with a 5-inch blade to his neck and the other, Christopher Gonzalez, 18, threatened to shoot him Thursday night, authorities said.
> ...
> ...


Let's see.

The defender noticed something was wrong and didn't revert to denial. The attackers presented weapons and threatened to kill him. He escaped with only minor injuries and describes himself as having been in fear. One of the attackers died on his accomplice's knife. The defender expressed sadness at his attacker's death.

It's not even going to go to trial. The defender did absolutely everything right and got out of a worst-case situation pretty much untouched.

I feel sorry for the deceased's father. Losing a child is the worst thing that can happen to a parent. I only hope he's satisfied with Veliz' inevitable conviction.


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

tellner said:


> From a story in SF Gate:
> 
> 
> Let's see.
> ...


 

I understand the dad's grief, but he shouldn't be mad at the victim, he should be mad at his dead son. 


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

After clicking on the link and watching the video I feel like the dad is understandably upset, but he admits his son was hanging out with a criminal from a bad family, and that his son engaged in the fight with the victim, yet he blames the victim for killing his son.

Sorry. Even if his story is true, that his son was just a bystander who jumped in to help his friend in a fight, I still don't have any sympathy. His son shouldn't have been hanging out with monsters, there are consequences to those kinds of decisions.

The only person I have sympathy for here is the victim, minding his own business, and attacked by a group of violent knife wielding attackers.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

Huh. Look what I found on craigslist.

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/rnr/1043858212.html

Weird.


-Rob


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

And get a load of what this genius has to say about the case.

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-218202


-Rob


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## Cryozombie (Feb 22, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> And get a load of what this genius has to say about the case.
> 
> http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-218202
> 
> ...


 
Yeah. He's a moron. But look at his Screen Name: "Student Lawyer" 

'Nuff said.


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## tellner (Feb 22, 2009)

Thesemindz said:


> And get a load of what this genius has to say about the case.
> 
> http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-218202



Craigslist ads go away in a few days, so here's the whole thing...



> *Free Christopher Gonzalez. Free Tookie. Free Mumia. (oakland downtown)*
> 
> Reply to: pers-1043858212@craigslist.org [Errors when replying to ads?]
> Date: 2009-02-20, 10:32PM PST
> ...


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## Thesemindz (Feb 22, 2009)

tellner said:


> Craigslist ads go away in a few days, so here's the whole thing...


 
Thanks for posting that, I didn't think of it, but you actually listed something from a seperate link.

Regardless, as to the craigslist link, I don't think progressives, liberals, marxists, and socialists would necessarily all feel that way. I understand it was meant satirically, but I think the author is misunderstanding the connections between those ideologies.

Certainly some members of the modern liberal/progressive movement will object to the violent self defense of the victim here, but that isn't what connects their belief systems to marxists and socialists. 

The author is confusing the fact that these ideologies might share some fiscal and administrative systems with an idea that they share similar approaches to self defense. I don't subscribe to marxism or socialism, or liberalism or progressive, uh, ism?, either for that matter, but I don't think marxists or socialists are necessarily opposed to self defense. They are opposed to capitalism, and corporatism, and in some cases private property, but that isn't the same as being opposed to self defense.

I don't know. Seems like the author has some distaste for the democratic party and is extrapolating that out a little far.


-Rob


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## MJS (Feb 23, 2009)

The guy was faced with deadly force.  He was well within his rights to use deadly force.  Of course, anytime something like this happens, I'm never surprised when I hear the family of the badguy(s) talking about them as if they're angels.  He was a hard working kid?  Ok, then why was he part of an armed robbery?  

I'm glad that the victim wasn't hurt as bad as he could've been.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 23, 2009)

This reminds me of what happened a year ago at NIU. On feb 14th of last year some ******* went nuts and blew away five kids at the college. I was walking outside as it happened and got to see all the horror and despair of the bloody bodies being wheeled out. Yet after I found out the murderer killed himself and I saw his father on the news I felt bad for the killer's dad.

Not only did he lose his son, but he has to live out the rest of his days knowing his son will be remembered as a monster.

I'm with the victim, I'd probably feel bad if I killed a guy in self defense. I'd still do it, but I'd be sad afterward.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 23, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I'm with the victim, I'd probably feel bad if I killed a guy in self defense. I'd still do it, but I'd be sad afterward.



Good for you!  I agree.  I'd also be angry that someone forced me into the situation where I had to make *his* family sad by ending his threat - and his life.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 23, 2009)

Killing is bad.


But do it if you have to.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 23, 2009)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Killing is bad.
> But do it if you have to.



Corollary: Know when you 'have to'.


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## Andy Moynihan (Feb 23, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Corollary: Know when you 'have to'.


 

*The Schofield Kid*_: [after killing a man for the first time] It don't seem real... how he ain't gonna never breathe again, ever... how he's dead. And the other one too. All on account of pulling a trigger. 
*Will Munny*: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have. 
*The Schofield Kid*: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming. 
*Will Munny*: We all got it coming, kid. 
_

_--Unforgiven
_


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## CoryKS (Feb 23, 2009)

It's a feature, not a bug.  Feel sorry for the dad, but not as sorry as I would have felt for Veliz and his dad if Gonzalez and his friend had killed him.


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## chinto (Feb 24, 2009)

I am sorry but i find no simpathy for the attacker or his family.  He attacked an innocent with deadly force and died for it!~  thank god the none innocent party was the survivor!  as to the father, well his son attacked a man with a knife and friends, and died for it. bury him and thank god he did not go to the gas chamber instead of dieing in the attempt to take an innocent life.


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## Aiki Lee (Feb 24, 2009)

For all we know that guy's dad could have been a mugger himself. This could be a case of like father like son.


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