# How many hours does it take to become an expert?



## Makalakumu (Sep 18, 2012)

I found this link recently and I wanted to share and apply it to martial arts.

http://expertenough.com/2442/10000-hours-to-become-an-expert-infographic



> Weve asked you in the past whether or not you think it takes 10,000 hours to become an expert,  but we found this infographic at Udemy.com with some interesting hour  counts for how long it takes to master a particular skill.



The ten thousand figure is something I've heard bantered around MA community for years.  

That said, where does your MA practice fall?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 18, 2012)

For myself, I could go back to 11, but my time in the dojo happened in fits and we moved around a lot.  I really got obsessed with MA around 19 when I went to college and pretty much directed my own life.  Since then, here are some estimates.

I've practiced for about one hour a day, six days a week, for 19 years outside of MA class.  Most of the time it's more than an hour (more like 1.5 to 2.0), but I have taken time to heal from injuries and I've gone on vacations.

Total practice outside of MA class - 52 x 6 x 1 = 312 x 19 = 5,928 hours.

For the child free years of my life, I pretty much went to an MA class four-five days a week at 2 hours a crack.  Olivia was born when I was 25 so that means I devoted 6 years to this insanity. 52 x 4.5 x 6 x 2 = 2,816 hours

After kids, my wife and "had a discussion" and I broke a collarbone which resulted in another "discussion" where I grew up and began acting responsibly.  Since then, I've either taught or attended 2-3 classes a week at 2 hours a piece. 52 x 2.5 x 11 x 2 = 2,860 hours

This gives me a grand total of 11,604 hours devoted to MA.  If I tack on the time I spent as a kid, I might brush 13,000, but that's a stretch.  

Comparatively, that would put me a little over a typical sports expert at 9,600 hours, but under an expert chef.   I suppose that makes logical sense.  

Anyway, I wanted to share this because I thought it was really cool.  Enjoy!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 19, 2012)

IMO, it all depends on how intensely you practice (some people would say there practicing for 5 hours, when they took so many breaks they only practiced for two, while someone else wouldn't take a break in all 5 hours), what you consider mastering (or if it's even possible), and how talented you are. for some people the 10,000 mark might be correct, but for others, it could be way less hours, or way more hours. I know that personally some of my friends who have spent less hours, and are less intense when they practice are much closer to mastering our style then I am, simply because they are talented and I am not. Other people who have the same practice habits as me or as my talented friends, but aren't as far along as I am, because they have less natural ability then I do. It's all relative, no exact number.


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## Zenjael (Sep 20, 2012)

The level of expert seems something subjectively reached, but objectively defined. One doesn't become an expert, they are named by others as one, or aren't.

But then again, this begs the question of what about 10,000 hours of bad training? Or what about me? Where I trained for past that time, but remember almost none of it consciously, because it was in my formative years (concerning Moo Duk Kwan TKD) between the ages of 2-10. Others argue that one shouldn't take that training in a person's life into account, but I argue otherwise, and here is why; while I cannot recall save in flashes learning parts of the forms, once I begin the motion I remember all the Taegeuk, and palgae forms, yet if you asked me to write out how to do them, I would not be able to. And I can still do them at the level of a 3rd dan.

I think in part we don't remember most of our formative years because they are so much a part of who we are... we don't need another mechanism of recall. The reason I say this, is because I can remember practicing the other aspects of TKD later on, in my teenage years, when I was a more consciously awakened individual.

But should I discount those hours I spent in my childhood? No, I don't think so.

Experience is what creates expertise. But experience is relative, and you can't put it into 'x amount of hours'. It will take as long as it takes, and the only way to reach it is diligence, honest work, and perfect training, training, training.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 20, 2012)

The term 'expert' is as nebulous as 'master' and 'grandmaster' (not to mention great-grandmaster and supreme grandmaster).  To attach an hour measure (or year-measure) is pretty meaningless because it is subjective and totally dependent upon the abilities, skill and seriousness of the individual.  I work with a plethora of 'non-experts' that have never set foot in a Dojo/Dojang but feel confident in their abilty to back me up (and in fact, they do regularly).  On the other hand, I can also name a plethora of masters, grandmasters, supreme grandmasters, Dr. Professor grandmasters PhDMA's that I would most definately not want anywhere near me as back up.  

Perhaps being an expert is having the right amount of training to successfully do whatever it is your training for consistently.  And also perhaps, if you call yourself an expert (or master etc)....your not.  If on the otherhand others look upon you at this level, you are.


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> The term 'expert' is as nebulous as 'master' and 'grandmaster' (not to mention great-grandmaster and supreme grandmaster).  To attach an hour measure (or year-measure) is pretty meaningless because it is subjective and totally dependent upon the abilities, skill and seriousness of the individual.  I work with a plethora of 'non-experts' that have never set foot in a Dojo/Dojang but feel confident in their abilty to back me up (and in fact, they do regularly).  On the other hand, I can also name a plethora of masters, grandmasters, supreme grandmasters, Dr. Professor grandmasters PhDMA's that I would most definately not want anywhere near me as back up.
> 
> Perhaps being an expert is having the right amount of training to successfully do whatever it is your training for consistently.  And also perhaps, if you call yourself an expert (or master etc)....your not.  If on the otherhand others look upon you at this level, you are.


What do you mean by "back up?"  I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.  

Regarding the OP, I think that the chart is interesting.  10,000 hours is a common shorthand for developing expertise that I think makes the point, even though it's clear that it's not an exact figure.  It's sort of like the 80/20 principle that can be applied to almost anything.  80% of the work done on a team is accomplished by 20% of the workers, etc.

But there is another wrinkle, which is that expertise is often relative.  In other words, we measure expertise relative to the abilities of the lay person.  So, in fighting, for example, there are people who aren't true combat experts, but can fake it because the learning curve is so steep at the bottom that their performance is far above that of the average individual.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 20, 2012)

> A martial arts student went to his teacher and said earnestly, "I am devoted to studying your martial system. How long will it take me to master it." The teacher's reply was casual, "Ten years." Impatiently, the student answered, "But I want to master it faster than that. I will work very hard. I will practice everyday, ten or more hours a day if I have to. How long will it take then?" The teacher thought for a moment, "20 years."



And I tend to believe this to be true, the harder you focus on the goal the more likely you are not focusing on training which to me translates you are more focused on your ego and less focused on the enjoyment of training or learning&#8230; and for every obstacle or failure that sets back your goal things will be more frustrating and things will take longer&#8230;if you ever get there at all


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## punisher73 (Sep 20, 2012)

Steve said:


> What do you mean by "back up?"  I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.



"Back up" is an American slang term (not sure if used in other countries) for your help in a situation.  In flying terms it would be your wingman, someone who is going to help you out in the fight.  Used in law enforcement circles for the additional officers sent to assist you.

So, he is saying that there are plenty of people labeled as "experts" because of their titles that he wouldn't trust to help him out of a situation.


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> "Back up" is an American slang term (not sure if used in other countries) for your help in a situation.  In flying terms it would be your wingman, someone who is going to help you out in the fight.  Used in law enforcement circles for the additional officers sent to assist you.
> 
> So, he is saying that there are plenty of people labeled as "experts" because of their titles that he wouldn't trust to help him out of a situation.


Okay. Yeah.  I get that, but I got confused, because it sounds like KSD is going out looking for trouble and bringing "back up."  Seemed a little odd.  Still does, I guess.

I don't routinely bring back up with me anywhere, and I've always presumed that most people were the same.


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## Kong Soo Do (Sep 20, 2012)

Steve said:


> What do you mean by "back up?" I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.





			
				Punisher73 said:
			
		

> "Back up" is an American slang term (not sure if used in other countries) for your help in a situation. In flying terms it would be your wingman, someone who is going to help you out in the fight. Used in law enforcement circles for the additional officers sent to assist you.
> 
> So, he is saying that there are plenty of people labeled as "experts" because of their titles that he wouldn't trust to help him out of a situation.



Punisher is correct, my comment was meant for when I'm on-duty.


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## Tames D (Sep 20, 2012)

Steve said:


> Okay. Yeah. I get that, but I got confused, because it sounds like KSD is going out looking for trouble and bringing "back up." Seemed a little odd. Still does, I guess.
> 
> I don't routinely bring back up with me anywhere, and I've always presumed that most people were the same.



KSD is a LEO. He doesn't have to look for trouble. Trouble finds him.


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## Steve (Sep 20, 2012)

Ah...  I didn't know that about you, KSD.  Makes much more sense.

So, in that vein, when you bring backup, they're trained specifically for the role.  One could say, they are logging hours towards expertise in that very specific role.  Georges St. Pierre might be a formidable martial artist, but he's never (to my knowledge) worked to cultivate any expertise in law enforcement.

Which actually gets to another point here, that an expert is by definition a specialist.  There is no such animal as an "expert" in martial arts.  There are experts in very specific subsets of martial arts.   In the same way, there is no such thing as an "expert" doctor.  The expert is the neurosurgeon, who has focused on a specialty.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 20, 2012)

One thing that stuck me as interesting was the comparison between different fields.  Science and technology definitely required far more hours of experience to be considered an expert.  While social subject and physical skills came in at the lower range.  When you combine this with the calculations that actually determine how many hours one practices, it becomes incredibly difficult to reach that thresh hold of 10,000 hours.  If you went to a two hour class three times a week for ten years, that only gets you to about 3000 hours.  That's the level of BJJ Black Belt or the average karate 3rd dan.  Many in the MAs would consider that expertise level.  Yet, it doesn't even approach 10,000.  You'd have to train with that intensity for 35 years to hit 10,000.  And that doesn't even bring you close to the level of expertise of a neurosurgeon.  It's something to ponder for sure.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 21, 2012)

Steve said:


> Ah... I didn't know that about you, KSD. Makes much more sense.
> 
> So, in that vein, when you bring backup, they're trained specifically for the role. One could say, they are logging hours towards expertise in that very specific role. Georges St. Pierre might be a formidable martial artist, but he's never (to my knowledge) worked to cultivate any expertise in law enforcement.
> 
> Which actually gets to another point here, that an expert is by definition a specialist. There is no such animal as an "expert" in martial arts. There are experts in very specific subsets of martial arts. In the same way, there is no such thing as an "expert" doctor. The expert is the neurosurgeon, who has focused on a specialty.



I think expert is generally used to define a very high skill level in a particular specialty.  I would not consider that because a person claims or even has, expertise beyond some others, that such a person is automatically an expert.

I think we need an acceptable definition of expert before we can have a meaniful discussion.  That was brought up some time ago, reference qualifying as an expert in a USA court of law.  I don't think there was really much discussion on what it would take to do that.

Would anyone care to take a stab at defining an expert?



Makalakumu said:


> One thing that stuck me as interesting was the comparison between different fields. Science and technology definitely required far more hours of experience to be considered an expert. While social subject and physical skills came in at the lower range. When you combine this with the calculations that actually determine how many hours one practices, it becomes incredibly difficult to reach that thresh hold of 10,000 hours. If you went to a two hour class three times a week for ten years, that only gets you to about 3000 hours. That's the level of BJJ Black Belt or the average karate 3rd dan. Many in the MAs would consider that expertise level. Yet, it doesn't even approach 10,000. You'd have to train with that intensity for 35 years to hit 10,000. And that doesn't even bring you close to the level of expertise of a neurosurgeon. It's something to ponder for sure.



Are you talking about training only in that specialty or also in those things that must precede the specialty training, if needed?  For instance, a neurosurgeon must first become a doctor.  They may need to become a neurologist, then become a neurosurgeon(not sure, but there would be some sort of progression that could be stopped, and still have a practicing doctor).  In martial arts, one must progress through a series of black belt stages (in Korea, one will probably be strongly encouraced at the 3d dan level to go out and acquire at least a 1st dan in another MA).  One does not start out to study the expert level (some weekend seminars not accepted), they must have prerequisite studies first.

Interesting topic.


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## Steve (Sep 21, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> One thing that stuck me as interesting was the comparison between different fields.  Science and technology definitely required far more hours of experience to be considered an expert.  While social subject and physical skills came in at the lower range.  When you combine this with the calculations that actually determine how many hours one practices, it becomes incredibly difficult to reach that thresh hold of 10,000 hours.  If you went to a two hour class three times a week for ten years, that only gets you to about 3000 hours.  That's the level of BJJ Black Belt or the average karate 3rd dan.  Many in the MAs would consider that expertise level.  Yet, it doesn't even approach 10,000.  You'd have to train with that intensity for 35 years to hit 10,000.  And that doesn't even bring you close to the level of expertise of a neurosurgeon.  It's something to ponder for sure.


I was thinking about that myself.  I'm a purple belt at about 2500 hours of BJJ.  I've mentioned bloom's taxonomy before.  I really like Bloom's taxonomy.  It helps understand levels of expertise, and also helps trainers target learning for people who have different levels of understanding.  In other words, you wouldn't teach a black belt the same way you'd teach a white belt.   

Bloom's Taxonomy moves through six levels, starting with Knowledge and ending with Evaluation (Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation).  Most people, even professionals, get to Analysis, which is level four.  Analysis is the BJJ black belt, but wouldn't qualify as "expert" on that chart.  That doesn't mean the black belt is incompetent... just the opposite.  It's the difference between my coach and Saulo Ribeiro.  No comparison.  Or, put it this way.  My coach is badass.  He's technical and has a ton to teach me.  When we roll, I'm literally no challenge for him.  HIS coach is Giva Santana, and the difference between my coach and myself is mirrored with them.  Giva pushes my coach and handles him unlike anyone else I've seen.  I haven't ever met Moises Muradi, but from what I've heard, when Giva rolls with him, the difference is reflected again between them. 

So, in this framework, Giva Santana, even though he's defeated guys like Damien Maia in BJJ competitions, won the Pan Ams and is an all around guru in BJJ, would not qualify as an expert, because he's at the synthesis level.  

The nut, I guess, is that in the context of this discussion, it seems that "expert" means someone who stands apart even among his peers.  Not just an accomplished practitioner, but someone who has distinguished him or herself in meaningful ways.

It's early, so I hope this made sense.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 21, 2012)

Steve said:


> I was thinking about that myself.  I'm a purple belt at about 2500 hours of BJJ.  I've mentioned bloom's taxonomy before.  I really like Bloom's taxonomy.  It helps understand levels of expertise, and also helps trainers target learning for people who have different levels of understanding.  In other words, you wouldn't teach a black belt the same way you'd teach a white belt.
> 
> Bloom's Taxonomy moves through six levels, starting with Knowledge and ending with Evaluation (Knowledge, Comprehension, Application, Analysis, Synthesis and Evaluation).  Most people, even professionals, get to Analysis, which is level four.  Analysis is the BJJ black belt, but wouldn't qualify as "expert" on that chart.  That doesn't mean the black belt is incompetent... just the opposite.  It's the difference between my coach and Saulo Ribeiro.  No comparison.  Or, put it this way.  My coach is badass.  He's technical and has a ton to teach me.  When we roll, I'm literally no challenge for him.  HIS coach is Giva Santana, and the difference between my coach and myself is mirrored with them.  Giva pushes my coach and handles him unlike anyone else I've seen.  I haven't ever met Moises Muradi, but from what I've heard, when Giva rolls with him, the difference is reflected again between them.
> 
> ...



I wonder how many hours the top guys in BJJ rack up? I have a sneaking suspicion that 10,000 hours may actually be a good rule of thumb for physical activities. I wonder how many hours a person like Rickson Gracie put into his practice?  Would he be the neurosurgeon of BJJ? Maybe 10,000 hours is way too low?


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## Omar B (Sep 21, 2012)

I can see somebody else read Outliers.  Yes, I believe in the 10000 hours number.  http://www.amazon.com/Outliers-Story-Success-Malcolm-Gladwell/dp/0316017922


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## Rich Parsons (Sep 22, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> I found this link recently and I wanted to share and apply it to martial arts.
> 
> http://expertenough.com/2442/10000-hours-to-become-an-expert-infographic
> 
> ...




How many classes to a Bachelor's Degree? It depends upon is it 3 credit hour or 4 credit hour classes or 5 or even 1 or 2. It all depends. There is a requirement for the total number of classes and out of those classes there are requirements for the number in different areas. They all require that you have passed the class and also have a certain understanding level. 

Just putting a number of hours or any time frame on something is bad. 

I could show up for classes and just daydream and pay my money. I really am not learning anything then. Also if someone just picks up a stick and hits them self in the head, do I count the time they are knocked out are "expert" training time? Of they never really hit anything is that good training that leads to "expert" knowledge?


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## Makalakumu (Sep 22, 2012)

Of course the training could be bad, but assuming it's good, when you calculate the amount of time, it's surprising.  It's also surprising how many other fields far exceed the martial arts, yet earning a second, third, or fourth degree blackbelt carries with it a certain amount of respect.  In some way, it's a bit of an ego check.


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## Omar B (Sep 22, 2012)

Exactly, it's not 10000 hours of jjust being there, it's 10000 hours of hard, dedicated work.  Just being there physically doesn't mean a thing.


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## oftheherd1 (Sep 24, 2012)

Rich Parsons said:


> How many classes to a Bachelor's Degree? It depends upon is it 3 credit hour or 4 credit hour classes or 5 or even 1 or 2. It all depends. There is a requirement for the total number of classes and out of those classes there are requirements for the number in different areas. They all require that you have passed the class and also have a certain understanding level.
> 
> ...



But does even a bachelor's degree qualify one as an expert? As to how man credit hours a course it, I don't think that is so important as uaually you must have a certain amount of hours to graduate, and a certain amount of those hours must be in core subjects. So then that raises the question of is MA education more like a college certificate course? In MA we aren't required to study the social graces. You really don't even need to know how to read and write.

And in MA, how many rememeber in the late 50s, and up to the 70s, we knew there were Karate and Judo 'experts.' But we didn't know what it took to be one unless we were studying an MA. We thought maybe a black belt had something to do with it. Then we started hearing about Kung Fu. I remember a guy in Vietnam, when I mentioned that I had studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee, and that Mr. Rhee was a 6th degree BB, he was quite impressed. "Wow, he must be about ready to move up to Kung Fu then."


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## Balrog (Sep 24, 2012)

[h=2]How many hours does it take to become an expert?[/h]
Interesting question!

The easy answer is:  as many as it takes.  But that doesn't really help much without a definition of expert.  I like to think of someone as expert in martial arts who can read a potential situation / opponent, formulate an action to the situation and execute it without conscious thought.  And that does not happen overnight.  For someone to get to that level, I agree that many, many hours/years of training are required, but with the caveat:  have you had X years of training, or have you had one year of training repeated X times?  If one is not varying the training and and mixing up drills so that you approach the same technique from different points of view, have you really learned something well enough to be considered expert?


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## Steve (Sep 24, 2012)

oftheherd1 said:


> But does even a bachelor's degree qualify one as an expert? As to how man credit hours a course it, I don't think that is so important as uaually you must have a certain amount of hours to graduate, and a certain amount of those hours must be in core subjects. So then that raises the question of is MA education more like a college certificate course? In MA we aren't required to study the social graces. You really don't even need to know how to read and write.
> 
> And in MA, how many rememeber in the late 50s, and up to the 70s, we knew there were Karate and Judo 'experts.' But we didn't know what it took to be one unless we were studying an MA. We thought maybe a black belt had something to do with it. Then we started hearing about Kung Fu. I remember a guy in Vietnam, when I mentioned that I had studied briefly under Jhoon Goo Rhee, and that Mr. Rhee was a 6th degree BB, he was quite impressed. "Wow, he must be about ready to move up to Kung Fu then."


Based upon the standard proposed in the first post, a PhD doesn't even qualify as expert.  Expert would be those within the field who have distinguished themselves from their peers in a significant way.  So, the PhD to whom all of the other PhDs defer would be the expert.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 24, 2012)

> Today I made an appearance downtown
> *I am an expert witness, because I say I am *
> And I said, 'Gentleman....and I use that word loosely....
> I will testify for you
> ...



The Garden Of Allah


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## WC_lun (Sep 24, 2012)

You are an expert in martial arts when you are intimately famiilar with the phylosophies, concepts, and application of your system.  There is no time studied criteria,but it does take time.  The 10,000 hour thing is something told to students to make them realize it is a long process and the value of training. 

Unfortunately, there are many out there that claim to be "expert" when they aren't.  How many times have we seen beginners come here to the forums and claim to be an "expert"?  How many times have many of us seen teachers who have no real knowledge of martial arts, yet they continue to teach others on how to be "expert."  Egoes and bussiness concerns make this problem even worse.

In the end I think this is a false line drawn that many want to cross for reasons other than training reasons.  Everybody wants to be respected for what they do, causing a lot of people to make claims that even they themselves do not know are false.  Train hard and train smart, eventually others will see your skill by what you do.  Even if others do not see it, it matters more that you know what you know.


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