# 1800's "Pugilism", is it useful?



## chrissyp (May 22, 2018)

So in my martial arts journey, I started off as a boxer, then to Muay thai, and then to Shotokan.

Part of the interest in Shotokan comes from the more realistic defense involving the lack of gloves.

This lead me to try to understand classic Pugilism. If you ever see any old photos, a lot of the defense and techniques are similar to traditional karate.

I found this video, of guy explain it. It seems pretty sound technique, with the exception of him only using one arm to defend. The video gets to the point about the 3 minute mark.

Other than this, does anyone have any input on the style? Or is dead for a reason?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 22, 2018)

@lklawson would be your best bet for an answer


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## Martial D (May 22, 2018)

Fighting, like any competitive skilled activity, evolves. People innovate, things get better, more streamlined. The football players of today are better, the basketball players, the tennis players, and yes, the boxers. Things that don't evolve get left behind.

Just as we can predict what would happen if we put Michael Jordan on an early 1900s basketball team, we can also predict what happens if we put Tyson or ggg against an old timey boxer. It wouldn't be pretty.

This is partially why we don't see non competitive arts that have been frozen in time in a fighting cage.


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## chrissyp (May 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Fighting, like any competitive skilled activity, evolves. People innovate, things get better, more streamlined. The football players of today are better, the basketball players, the tennis players, and yes, the boxers. Things that don't evolve get left behind.
> 
> Just as we can predict what would happen if we put Michael Jordan on an early 1900s basketball team, we can also predict what happens if we put Tyson or ggg against an old timey boxer. It wouldn't be pretty.
> 
> This is partially why we don't see non competitive arts that have been frozen in time in a fighting cage.


Interesting point of view! Makes sense!


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 22, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> does anyone have any input on the style?







I like the way that he extends his leading arm (at 5.30). It has the following advantages:

- Since his leading arm is in his opponent's attacking path, his opponent's punch has to deal with his arm first. It's the same strategy that wrestlers like to put hands in front of their knees.
- He can interrupt his opponent's punch farther away from his head. His opponent's punches will have less chance to land on his head.
- The fight starts in his opponent's territory and not in his territory. This is like to set up the anti-missile system on the coast line than in Washington DC.
- It's much more aggressive strategy than to put your arms around you own head (as shown in the following clip).


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## chrissyp (May 22, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the way that he extends his leading arm (at 5.30). It has the following advantages:
> 
> - Since his leading arm is in his opponent's attacking path, his opponent's punch has to deal with his arm first. It's the same strategy that wrestlers like to put hands in front of their knees.
> - He can interrupt his opponent's punch farther away from his head. His opponent's punches will have less chance to land on his head.
> ...


I like the long guard! I agree! It also can set up some nice elbows, the only problem I see with it is you have to be weary of feints. But I like the style, he has another video where he expands on it all. The only issue I see other than that, is his epethisis (sp?) On using just one arm for deflection, where as I think both should be used, depending on the strike and angle.


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## chrissyp (May 22, 2018)

another technique I studied, is the vertical fist, which is a narrower target, which makes for slipping past a certain blocks easier, and with it being bare knuckle I THINK (i'm not 100%) on this that it's better to strike with because it has a much more natural bone allignment?


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## Kung Fu Wang (May 23, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> I think both should be used, depending on the strike and angle.


If he uses 2 extend arms, that will be "Chinese zombie guard", or 







"double spears" strategy.


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## jobo (May 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Fighting, like any competitive skilled activity, evolves. People innovate, things get better, more streamlined. The football players of today are better, the basketball players, the tennis players, and yes, the boxers. Things that don't evolve get left behind.
> 
> Just as we can predict what would happen if we put Michael Jordan on an early 1900s basketball team, we can also predict what happens if we put Tyson or ggg against an old timey boxer. It wouldn't be pretty.
> 
> This is partially why we don't see non competitive arts that have been frozen in time in a fighting cage.


Well yes and no, it's very difficult to separate the evolution of a sport Performance from the evolution of rules, our understanding of Fitness /performance training ,the evolution of equipment and the evolution of humans, over 50 / 100 years. If old time greats were born day 25years ago, there's a good chance, that Jack Dempsey ,Ali ,John McEnroe, babe Ruth, Pele etc, would still be all time greats. Though Ali would probably be fighting at cruiser weight.give a 1980s McEnroe a 2018 racket, and modern training and he would still be pretty good.

On the topic of boxing,,,or pugilism, give a 1800s boxer a great big pair of gloves to hide behind and out law kicking and they will quickly learn to fight like a modern fighter, just as ggg, would look like a pugilist, if you reversed the change.

Bare fiSt"boxing looks a lot like old time pugilist, because that works,


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## punisher73 (May 23, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well yes and no, it's very difficult to separate the evolution of a sport Performance from the evolution of rules, our understanding of Fitness /performance training ,the evolution of equipment and the evolution of humans, over 50 / 100 years. If old time greats were born day 25years ago, there's a good chance, that Jack Dempsey ,Ali ,John McEnroe, babe Ruth, Pele etc, would still be all time greats. Though Ali would probably be fighting at cruiser weight.give a 1980s McEnroe a 2018 racket, and modern training and he would still be pretty good.
> 
> On the topic of boxing,,,or pugilism, give a 1800s boxer a great big pair of gloves to hide behind and out law kicking and they will quickly learn to fight like a modern fighter, just as ggg, would look like a pugilist, if you reversed the change.
> 
> Bare fiSt"boxing looks a lot like old time pugilist, because that works,



You beat me to it.  Modern boxing looks like modern boxing due to the gloves and rules.  Old bareknuckle boxing looks similar to "karate" in many aspects due to how it was used as well.  Now, add in all of the other "dirty" tricks of old boxing and it really starts to look like karate, things like forearms, elbows, hammerfists etc.

If you want to explore this idea further, Mark Hatmaker has a couple boxing dvds out that incorporate those things into boxing for self-defense.  Also, filipino boxing offers a unique perspective as well.


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## IvanTheBrick (May 23, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> So in my martial arts journey, I started off as a boxer, then to Muay thai, and then to Shotokan.
> 
> Part of the interest in Shotokan comes from the more realistic defense involving the lack of gloves.
> 
> ...


Every style, whether dead or alive can teach you something. Take what you need, and leave the rest. Develop your own techniques that work for you afterwards.


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## JowGaWolf (May 23, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> So in my martial arts journey, I started off as a boxer, then to Muay thai, and then to Shotokan.
> 
> Part of the interest in Shotokan comes from the more realistic defense involving the lack of gloves.
> 
> ...


Some of the basic principles still hold but a lot of the other principles no longer hold true simply because they have evolved into modern boxing.  

I think it still has viable techniques and what you'll discover is that none of those techniques are performed as they were in the 1800s.  The movement in the video is modern fight movement and not 1800 fight movement.  

The extended lead arm is often used in modern boxing but the application of it differs from the 1800 versions.   Maybe one day someone will be able to demonstrate original pulgilism without the evolution of the strikes and tactics


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## jobo (May 23, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of the basic principles still hold but a lot of the other principles no longer hold true simply because they have evolved into modern boxing.
> 
> I think it still has viable techniques and what you'll discover is that none of those techniques are performed as they were in the 1800s.  The movement in the video is modern fight movement and not 1800 fight movement.
> 
> The extended lead arm is often used in modern boxing but the application of it differs from the 1800 versions.   Maybe one day someone will be able to demonstrate original pulgilism without the evolution of the strikes and tactics


How do you know what the movement was like in the 1800s?


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## drop bear (May 23, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> @lklawson would be your best bet for an answer



Ironically no. We had this out and his theory is that modern boxing is a result of rule changes and not just the evolution of boxing.

My argument that modern fighting has a consistant theme across rulesets, from bare knucke, MMA, kickboxing, boxing, sanda, kudo. And so rule changes are not really a factor was not enough to convince him.

Showing footage of old timey bare knuckle champions. That were technically pretty raw was not enough to convince him.

Champion bare knuckle fighters training in gloves was not enough to convince him


His counter argument  was that I am a poo poo head.

There is this romantic idea that bare knucke boxing is somehow more suited to bare knuckle fighting. But the evidence just doesn't support  it.

I had the same idea when I spoke to a friend of mine who went from muay thai in 16oz gloves to muay thai in MMA gloves. I assumed there was some sort of mechanical difference that needed to be adressed. (and by the way he actually is a champion fighter. Holds titles and stuff)

And no not really. You get hit more. That is about it.

At some point i really need to bail up chris haseman and see what he says on it.

So we don't really know if there is use in the old style of bare knuckle as I don't know if anyone who is any good uses that method.


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## drop bear (May 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the way that he extends his leading arm (at 5.30). It has the following advantages:
> 
> - Since his leading arm is in his opponent's attacking path, his opponent's punch has to deal with his arm first. It's the same strategy that wrestlers like to put hands in front of their knees.
> - He can interrupt his opponent's punch farther away from his head. His opponent's punches will have less chance to land on his head.
> ...



That is my issue right there. A lot of unproven claims from guys who are trying to achieve the same results of say a MMA or boxer. But have not demonstrated their ability on that stage.


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## jobo (May 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> That is my issue right there. A lot of unproven claims from guys who are trying to achieve the same results of say a MMA or boxer. But have not demonstrated their ability on that stage.


Well there not trying to get the same results as a mMA or a boxer as they are noT completing in mmA,or boxing, noR would they be allowed to with out gloves and then it wouldn't bare fist fighting if they did,


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## drop bear (May 23, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well there not trying to get the same results as a mMA or a boxer as they are not completing in mmA,or boxing, not would they be allowed to with out gloves



They kind of are. They are trying to get strikes in while avoiding strikes. 

And you can compete without gloves. This happens. It is not like self defence where you never drop that pen.

People have done it. We can see them do it. We can talk to guys who have done it. I have just been talking to a guy who competed bare knuckle face punching karate. Chris Hasemen who competed bare knuckle MMA may or may not get back to me on this.

The concept that pugilist guy is doing something that nobody can test isn't the case here. And everything he suggests hinges on people with actual experience in bare knuckle fighting never turn up.


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## EddieCyrax (May 24, 2018)

chrissyp said:


> I like the long guard! I agree! It also can set up some nice elbows, the only problem I see with it is you have to be weary of feints. But I like the style, he has another video where he expands on it all. The only issue I see other than that, is his epethisis (sp?) On using just one arm for deflection, where as I think both should be used, depending on the strike and angle.



My sparing style is very much geared towards controlling/managing my opponents lead arm.

The guy in the video clearly has skill.  This said I would like to see his concept demonstrated against a fighter with his level of competency.

I personally love when my opponent sticks their front arm that far out.  It creates all sorts of openings for me as it is easily moved to twist/ break down their posture/stance.  I would not be punching his arm.  I would use it to maneuver inside or control......

Also,

Nice Arm Bar is also an option if you can work out the timing.


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## JowGaWolf (May 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> His counter argument was that I am a poo poo head.


You are a poo poo head. But that's  another story.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (May 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like the way that he extends his leading arm (at 5.30). It has the following advantages:
> 
> - Since his leading arm is in his opponent's attacking path, his opponent's punch has to deal with his arm first. It's the same strategy that wrestlers like to put hands in front of their knees.
> - He can interrupt his opponent's punch farther away from his head. His opponent's punches will have less chance to land on his head.
> ...


Focusing on the part at 5:30...I did not listen with sound, so I may have missed something. But I don't see why you would attack someones arm like that if they put it out. To me it doesn't accomplish anything, and hurts you. I could see staying out of range and waiting for an attack, or trapping or jamming the arm, or sidestepping and going in, but not just hanging out in that range waiting for him to attack...


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## punisher73 (May 25, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Ironically no. We had this out and his theory is that modern boxing is a result of rule changes and not just the evolution of boxing.
> 
> My argument that modern fighting has a consistant theme across rulesets, from bare knucke, MMA, kickboxing, boxing, sanda, kudo. And so rule changes are not really a factor was not enough to convince him.
> 
> ...



I agree more with Mr. Lawson in this regards for the following reasons:

1) Bigger gloves allows for different guards to cover more areas, such as holding the gloves on the cheeks.  Also, protects the hands more which leads to more head punching as opposed to body punching.  You said there was no mechanical difference in your friend, just that you got hit more.  That is the WHOLE POINT, he is utilizing a style and approach based on larger gloves.  If all fighters had to fight with 4 oz. MMA gloves (or the 5 oz gloves Jack Dempsey wore) in boxing you would slowly start to see an evolution of guards and defensive work so you wouldn't keep getting hit more. 

2) Ring Size:  smaller rings lead to more engagement with the fighters and less moving around and running.  This has lead to different styles of boxing based on the ability to move a lot more.  This was one of the key factors in the Jack Dempsey v. Gene Tunney fight.  Dempsey always fought in a smaller ring which favored his bulldog style of moving in and taking out an opponent.  Tunney used a lot more footwork and moving around to avoid that.  

3) Neutral corner:  Previously, a fighter could stand over the downed fighter and as soon as they started to get up could engage again.  

4) Clinching:  Now it is a strategy used to smother another fighter or to get the fight back where you want it on a close in fighter because the referee will step in to break the clinch and separate the fighters.  Before the rule change, if you clinched up you were eating kicks or getting tossed onto the ground.  It was not a "safe zone" for the fighter.

5) Round limits:  Top end of a pro fight is 12 rounds.  Before the 80's when Ray Mancini killed a man in the ring, it was 15 rounds.  Yet, before the 1920's there was no limit to the rounds.  This definitely effects how you train and your approach.  How many times have you heard the complaint about just boxing to win the rounds and getting a decision and never knocking out a fighter?  Old school, the only way to win the fight was to make it so the other guy couldn't continue.  

All of these factors influence how boxing is trained and utilized.  All of it develops into its own separate strategy.  Looking at how it is done now and saying there is a common thread to all of them ignores how they were all implemented from the same rule pool.

Rule set and environment will ALWAYS change how a martial art or combat sport is done and it will always gravitate to maximizing itself in that rule set.


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## drop bear (May 25, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> 1) Bigger gloves allows for different guards to cover more areas, such as holding the gloves on the cheeks. Also, protects the hands more which leads to more head punching as opposed to body punching. You said there was no mechanical difference in your friend, just that you got hit more. That is the WHOLE POINT, he is utilizing a style and approach based on larger gloves. If all fighters had to fight with 4 oz. MMA gloves (or the 5 oz gloves Jack Dempsey wore) in boxing you would slowly start to see an evolution of guards and defensive work so you wouldn't keep getting hit more.



And how long is that change supposed to take?

Have you seen anybody who makes pugilism work?


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## punisher73 (May 29, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And how long is that change supposed to take?
> 
> Have you seen anybody who makes pugilism work?



How long?  Who knows?  If boxing as a sport adopted 4 or 5 oz. gloves tomorrow, then the change would occur quicker than if it is just a gym here or there that starts training that way.  It's the nature of the beast.  Think about if you only sparred the same small group of people each time in a school.  Eventually, you would start to develop strategies to beat those same people.  They may or may not be something that can be applied to people universally.  

Your second question is too nebulous.  How are you defining "pugilism"?  Pre-1920's with kicks, hip tosses etc.  Dirty boxing, that uses all of the banned techniques like rabbit punches, hammers, hacksaws, and includes the kicks, hip tosses etc?  Also, streetfights caught on tape that illustrate those principles?  Sparring sessions under old school rules?  What are you looking for?


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## drop bear (May 29, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> How long?  Who knows?  If boxing as a sport adopted 4 or 5 oz. gloves tomorrow, then the change would occur quicker than if it is just a gym here or there that starts training that way.  It's the nature of the beast.  Think about if you only sparred the same small group of people each time in a school.  Eventually, you would start to develop strategies to beat those same people.  They may or may not be something that can be applied to people universally.
> 
> Your second question is too nebulous.  How are you defining "pugilism"?  Pre-1920's with kicks, hip tosses etc.  Dirty boxing, that uses all of the banned techniques like rabbit punches, hammers, hacksaws, and includes the kicks, hip tosses etc?  Also, streetfights caught on tape that illustrate those principles?  Sparring sessions under old school rules?  What are you looking for?



Anybody in either bare knuckle or mma gloves using pugilism to win fights, anywhere?


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## punisher73 (May 30, 2018)

You can look at any MMA fight and see concepts, principles and techniques being used from pugilism.  

You will see grabbing the head to punch or elbow, oblique kicks like Jon Jones uses, you will see the hip toss or cross buttocks throw. 

Watch Nick Diaz, not only does he train with modern boxers, he also trains with pugilists and incorporates that into his boxing.

MMA uses whatever works.  As fighters are introduced to it and add it to their gameplan, other fighters will also add those tools to their toolbox.


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## drop bear (May 30, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> You can look at any MMA fight and see concepts, principles and techniques being used from pugilism.
> 
> You will see grabbing the head to punch or elbow, oblique kicks like Jon Jones uses, you will see the hip toss or cross buttocks throw.
> 
> ...



Who are the pugilists nick Diaz trains with?


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## punisher73 (May 31, 2018)

The Pugilist: Nick Diaz's very old school boxing

There is an article comparing the strategies and tactics.  TBH I can't find the article again that mentioned that Nick Diaz had trained with pugilists, but I will keep looking for it.


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## drop bear (May 31, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> The Pugilist: Nick Diaz's very old school boxing
> 
> There is an article comparing the strategies and tactics.  TBH I can't find the article again that mentioned that Nick Diaz had trained with pugilists, but I will keep looking for it.



I had a look and couldn't find who. Just some passing references.


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## drop bear (May 31, 2018)

Malos1979 said:


> I would like to study pugilism just from a historic perspective. There are always elements that are useful I think.



Yeah. Finding some sort of legitimate source would be nice though.

Academic pursuit should still have that practical grounding. Otherwise we get that random guy in the park saying any old stuff to justify his stuff.


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## punisher73 (Jun 1, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. Finding some sort of legitimate source would be nice though.
> 
> Academic pursuit should still have that practical grounding. Otherwise we get that random guy in the park saying any old stuff to justify his stuff.



I agree as well.  If you get a chance to review the article, it is a very nice comparision of the old pugilism concepts and strategies that are used by NIck Diaz.  Nick Diaz has a very unique style of boxing in MMA.  Whether or not he formally trained with a pugilism trainer or intuitively started to do it that way, it makes a valid point about the evolution of combat sports and he they are defined and refined with rules and environment changes.


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