# 12 Angles and Targeting



## Samurai (Aug 30, 2002)

I have seen many FMA systems use a pattern of 12 Angles to teach the basic strikes and counters.  It seems that every teacher and every style has a different pattern for the 12 Angles.

The one thing that I HAVE noticed is that MOST of the systems that use this pattern will have the same Angles for 1-5.  

Angle 1 - 45 degree strike to the upper region
Angle 2 - Left side 45 degree strike to upper region
Angle 3 - Right side 90 degree strike to mid region
Angle 4- Left side 90 degree strike to mid region
Angle 5- straight thrust to mid section

My question to you is....what areas (pressure points, areas, and vital regions) do you target on these angles?  

I believe that the targets change all the time depending on what your attacker is doing, but I would like a general idea of what your style teaches.

Thanks
Jeremy :samurai:  Bays


----------



## arnisador (Aug 30, 2002)

In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.

See also this thread.


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Aug 30, 2002)

I use only 9 angles of striking.
#1 Forward strike to head-shoulders
#2 Backhand strike to head-shoulders
#3 F. Strike to shoulders-ribs
#4 B.H Strike to shoulders-ribs
#5 F. Strike waist-lower leg
#6 B.H Strike Waist-lower leg
#7 Thrust to Groin -lower stomach
#8 Thrust to Middle Stomach
#9 Thrust to Throat-Eyes
Even Thought we do the hooking type strikes. In Mordern Arnis it's Strike #6,#7#,10,#11. I am more concern with zones. It shouldn't matter what type of strikes they are doing but where the strike is going. If so why don't they included the Punyo strike( Striking with the butt-end of the stick.) into there Zones or angles of attacks.
Bob
 :asian:


----------



## J-kid (Aug 30, 2002)

most shots go for the head.
Reasons being
causes alot of damg
dazes oponent
can cause knock out and other probles.
plus hurts them alot more then a shot to the ribs in most cases.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.
> 
> See also this thread. *



Arnisador,

No disrespect, just curious, why are one and two to the shoulders and not the temple or the head in general. Is this for safety reasons, and once you understand you can translate it to the head for combat, but for practice and safety it is the shoulders. I know I provided an answer, myself, but trying to learn more.  

Thanks

Rich


----------



## arnisador (Aug 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *just curious, why are one and two to the shoulders and not the temple or the head in general. Is this for safety reasons, and once you understand you can translate it to the head for combat, but for practice and safety it is the shoulders. *



I absolutely believe that once you "get it" you can and and must start translating it to other target areas; a #1 is a forehand 45 degree strike, whether to the head, shoulder, wrist, knee, or ankle! My understanding was that the target areas in the basic numerada of Modern Arnis definitely were chosen with safety in mind, because the Professor was working on getting it into schools in the Philippines, but also with a target area that is comfortable for that type of angle. The #3/#4 is targetted at a height that I find very comfortable, though it also feels natural at the waist level.

I was always told that the #1/#2 were shoulder-to-hip cuts, as with a sword--I don't know if that's a good place to cut with a sword. The neck would be better but is more mobile; maybe this gets around a shield? I don't know. In my mind I picture a typical cleave as targetted around the collarbone, a few inches from the neck.


----------



## arnisandyz (Sep 4, 2002)

I heard this somewhere, "stick seeks bone, steel seeks flesh" - blunt weapons would target boney areas (collar bone, ribs, elbows, knees, etc)  + vital targets that would recieve trauma from impact (temple, etc) and a blade would target fleshy areas, muscle, kneck, behind joints like armpit, inner elbow, wrist + obvious vital targets, (heart, femural, etc.).


----------



## cdhall (Sep 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *I heard this somewhere, "stick seeks bone, steel seeks flesh" - blunt weapons would target boney areas (collar bone, ribs, elbows, knees, etc)  + vital targets that would recieve trauma from impact (temple, etc) and a blade would target fleshy areas, muscle, kneck, behind joints like armpit, inner elbow, wrist + obvious vital targets, (heart, femural, etc.). *



I am unfamiliar with this quote, however, for what it is worth I think Mr. Duffy has also told us that the preferred targets for a blunt weapon are bony (skull, clavicle, elbow, wrist, knee, hands, feet and maybe also the top of the pelvis) and the preferred targets for a knife or blade are muscle/flesh (forearm, abdomen, hamstring, throat, etc) as well.
:asian:


----------



## Danny T (Sep 6, 2002)

Hello all,

In Pekiti-Tirsia the "Basic" twelve attacks angles and targets are:

1. Forehand Horizontal to ear
2. Backhand Horizontal to ear
3. Forehand Horizontal to ribs or elbow
4. Backhand Horizontal to ribs or elbow
5. Low line thrust to the groin or prostate gland
6. Backhand Diagonal cavical to opposite foot
7. Forehand Horizontal to knee
8. Backhand thrust to solar plexus
9. Forehand thrust to heart
10. Two handed downward slash from top of head to either foot
11. Two-handed grip thrust driving 45 degrees downward into the bridge of the nose
12. Single hand thrust driving 45 degrees into the bridge of nose with simultaneous palm strike to groin with live hand.

We have 12 sets of 12 movements and targets teaching how to utilize the weapon differently. IE. Reverse grip, Double force, Punyo, Hooking, Double grip (bayonet)
Therefore this is only the basic 12.

Danny T


----------



## Angus (Sep 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> 
> *most shots go for the head.
> Reasons being
> ...



It's a good thing you don't do any FMA and posted here anyway.

We have 14 striking angles, which are:
(right side)

1: Forehand/inward angled (45 degrees unless ortherwise noted) strike to the head/temple
2: Backhand/outward angled strike to the head/temple
3: Inward flat strike to the elbows/body
4: Outward flat strike to the elbows/body
5: Forehand thrust to the body
6: Inward angled strike to the body
7: Outward angled strike to the body
8: 60 degree inward/upward strike from low to high
9: 60 degree outward/upward strike from low to high
10: Forehand thrust to the throat/head
11: Backhand thrust to the throat/head
12: Straight downward strike to the head (usually from high to low) down the centerline
13: Staight upward strike to the the groin (usually from low to high) up the centerline
14: Flat outward strike to the head.


----------



## diggum (Sep 10, 2002)

In Doce Pares Eskrima, there's a difference between angles of attack and targets.  While there's the "industry-standard" of an Angle 1 strike being basically any forehand strike to the upper quadrant of their body, and Angle 2 being a backhand version, there's a separate field that breaks down the 12 basic attacks and blocks (12 pairs, or doce pares.)  These are:
1   Downward strike to top of head (caveman)
2   Backhand strike to temple (shoulder for practice)
3   Forehand strike to temple
4   Backhand uppercut to ribs
5   Forehand uppercut to ribs
6   Backhand strike to hips
7   Forehand strike to hips
8   Backhand strike to knee
9   Forehand strike to knee
10 thrust to opponents right eye/neck
11 thrust to opponents left eye/neck
12 thrust to opponents solar plexus/ jam up.


----------



## stump (Sep 11, 2002)

most shots go for the head.
Reasons being
causes alot of damg
dazes oponent
can cause knock out and other probles.
plus hurts them alot more then a shot to the ribs in most cases.


I don't think this is actually the case in the FMA.   In my limited experience most shots go for the closest target available, and so most initial strikes are to the hand, elbows, knees or whatever is closest to you.  

By the way I'm a newbie here, and looking forward to talking FMA to you all

all the best

stump


----------



## thekuntawman (Sep 21, 2002)

in my style of arnis/eskrima, which i call "fighting eskrima", our numbers 1-6 for hitting ( we have up to 26) are this way,
#1- out to in temple STRAIGHT (no angle)
#2- in to out temple Straight
    #1 and 2 can also be hit to the front of the face from the same angle, which i treat as it is a separate strike (24, 25)
#3- out to in shin, thigh or knee (inside only)
#4- in to out shin, thigh or knee (inside only)
    we do not bother to hit the outside of the knee where the meat is.
#5- forehead, collar bone, wrist or hand, or shoulder
#6- up wards thrust to the chin or throat
     we do not thrust the stick to the body with one hand, except for short sticks. of course this rule is different for blade weapons.

i make sure the fighter understands the difference of hit with a long weapon, hit with short weapon, hit with thin/thick weapon, slash, cut, stab, thrust, and smack. the power is different, just like you hit each target different, and you change your block with the angle of the strike. for example, you hit the wrist differently if he is standing still when you strike, or he is moving, or if you are aiming for the top of the head, the back of the head (if he is turned or bending over), or the collarbones. they are all #5, but the target requires more power than others, and some are easier to hit, some are easier to avoid the hit, and the blockings for each one is different.


----------



## LabanB (Sep 21, 2002)

Hi Diggum,

   What you've described is Cacoy Canetes 12 strikes, rather than THE 12 strikes of Doce Pares! Doce Pares GB uses both the original 12 strikes (see below) and Cacoy's 12 strikes.

1 Diagonal forehand strike to left shoulder
2 Diagonal backhand strike to right shoulder
3 Horizontal forehand strike to left ribs
4 Horizontal backhand strike to right ribs
5 Palm down thrust to stomach
6 Palm up thrust to stomach
7 Diagonal forehand strike to left knee
8 Diagonal backhand strike to right knee
9 Palm down thrust to chest
10 Palm up thrust to chest
11 Downward strike to top of head 
12 Backhand strike (Witik) to temple

Bill Lowery


----------



## arnisador (Sep 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by LabanB _
> 
> *5 Palm down thrust to stomach
> 6 Palm up thrust to stomach
> *



Are these like the Modern Arnis #6 and #7, but lower?


----------



## Dan Anderson (Sep 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *In Modern Arnis, the most basic interpretation is that #1 and #2 are to the shoulders and #3 and #4 are to the (level of the) elbows. The #5, done as a straight-in thrust, goes to the lower belly.
> 
> *



Arnisador,
Numbers 1&2 - to the noggin, to the noggin.  Cross reference the tapes and books.
Dan


----------



## Dan Anderson (Sep 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Arnisador,
RP never said that 1&2 were 45 degree angle strikes to anywhere.  1&2 were noggin conks.  The 45 degree angle strike is an extrapolation of that idea and actually is the premise behind the reverse figure 8.  Check the books and tapes for referencing.  As to the sword, he never said one way or another so it may be so or it may be another extrapolation.

Yours,
Dan (again)


----------



## arnisador (Sep 25, 2002)

I know that I was taught very specific places for the 12 strikes to land, though it was also strongly emphasized that only the angle was important and that the targets given were just so people could practice the Numerada (a term I never heard used in Modern Arnis). The #1 and 2 always were directed to the shoulder in formal practice--though I agree that in practice the head is better if you're thinking stick, or at least the collarbone, while the neck would be good for a sword. The shoulder is safer and also makes the counter easier as it's lower, which can be useful for beginning practice.

Now that you mention it, I'm trying to think if I have a clear memory of the Professor giving me that advice--that the #1 and 2 are shoulder-to-hip--or not. I'm not sure!


----------



## arnisandyz (Sep 25, 2002)

Arnisador,

You bring up the numerada.  I think (guessing) that any numbering system is simply a way of getting everybody on the same page, so you don't have to say "hit me like this", you just say "feed a one".  In a structured numerada (by the numbers)  it is a way to learn the angles that are coming at you,  practice proper zoning, footwork, etc. and counterstriking, also range finding (sometimes you go long range, sometimes middle, sometime you close the gap.  In the more advanced stages we try to have the feeder give random strikes and the reciever keep thier stick moving either by the sugidas of PT or thier own method so they have to deal with the angle from wherever the stick is, and sometimes you are out of position (good thing you have that live hand).  The angle of attack is stressed more than the specific target areas.  Pretty much anything that gets in the path of the angle becomes the target although some targets are better than others.  By thinking this way it seems more flowing, your not as concerned with  "damn, I missed my target, I'll try again", which almost becomes tunnel vision for some people. You can more easily flow into the next transition attack/defense.


----------



## arnisandyz (Sep 25, 2002)

Arnisador,

You bring up a point of the numerada.  I think (guessing) that any numbering system is simply a way of getting everybody on the same page, so you don't have to say "hit me like this", you just say "feed a one".  In the structured numerada (by the numbers)  it is a way to learn the angles that are coming at you,  practice proper zoning, footwork, etc. and counterstriking, also range finding (sometimes you zone long range, sometimes middle, sometime you close the gap.  In the more advanced stages we try to have the reciever keep thier stick moving either by the sugidas of PT or thier own combinations so they have to deal with the angle from wherever the stick is, and sometimes you are out of position (good thing you have that live hand).

Also,

if you think of the target areas from a counterstrike of reciever perspective, your not really thinking,  He is trying to hit my temple or he is trying to hit my third rib, etc.  You are more concerned with the general direction the strke is flying at you.

Targeting can be good, precision striking, accuracy, timing and all the other good things, but people get to hung up on it.  Sometimes its better to just let it fly and let it hit whatever gets in its path.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 25, 2002)

Indeed, I think this is most beneficial for beginners--at the higher levels you must be fed random strikes. I'm talking about the basic drill as I recall it having been taught.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Sep 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *The #1 and 2 always were directed to the shoulder in formal practice - *



Arnisador,
This might be an East Coast thing as the first time I came to Buffalo in 1987 at John Bryant's school (back when Tim Hartman was a puppy - either a green or brown belt) I had to correct _everyone _ into actually striking at a target and not a foot away.  Yes, a foot away, and this was _everyone _ I came in contact with.

Remy Presas, _never, ever _ had us hit at the shoulder for strikes 1&2 in formal (or otherwise) practice.  It was always the head.  Other areas of the country I cannot vouch for nor other instructor's preferences.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




Oh Danny Boy!,

I would have to agree with you, that some schools were taught one way, or that the 'instructor' of rank what ever it was changed something, either for less damage or 'safer' practicing.

I agree in the Flint Schools it has always been the head and the temple.

But, I am willing to accept that others may have been taught other ways. Yet, I hope they listen here and elsewhere to these types of discussions and then adjust their techniques accordingly. i.e. kids vs. adults. or beginners vs. advanced. or WOW this is cool and I will do it this way.

Just my thoughts

Rich
 :asian:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Sep 27, 2002)

Ricky,
I have books which show, in actual photos, there numbers 1&2 go.

Authoringly yours,
Dan
:asian:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Ricky,
> I have books which show, in actual photos, there numbers 1&2 go.
> ...



True Dan,

And I never doubted the books or you. I have them now or in the past in a previous life. One and Two are to the head, but I think I should have said I could see where someone might have changed it to teach kids, and then everyone else ofrgot or did not learn the correct way. I also have seen many a person want to touch on every strike. So they target the shoulder to touch so as to limit the amount of damage of repeated strikes to the head. (* Which I ahve taken in my youth.  *) And then the next generation losses the concept that the Shoulder was the chosen target to hit the person for practice, when the head are the actual target.

Ciao

Rich


----------



## Dan Anderson (Sep 28, 2002)

Ricardo,
You are missing the point completely.  I am trying to generate a sale here.

Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Ricardo,
> You are missing the point completely.  I am trying to generate a sale here.
> ...



DOH!  

I never said I was smart or quick.  

Just Obtuse and Oblique. :rofl: 

Good luck on the Sale if I have not blown it. 

Rich
 :asian:


----------



## thekuntawman (Oct 3, 2002)

i have a suggestion for #1 and #2

 instead of going all the way to the side of the head to hit the temple. practice the hittings going to the face, like the nose, or side of the eye sockets or cheekbones. then make the angle almost straight to him like a jab instead of like a hook. you will see if you play with it that your strike will miss his block almost every time. why?

because most people train the block to go all the way to the side. your stick if you do it my way will slide in past his stick, even if his block catches your strike, he is going one way and you are going the other way, try it you'll see that i am right.


----------



## Damian Mavis (Oct 3, 2002)

"It's a good thing you don't do any FMA and posted here anyway."

Ah for crying out loud Angus you made me pee my pants with that comment.  Bastard.

All this talk of angles of attack makes me want to go back to Kali class.  I miss it so......

Damian Mavis
Honour TKD


----------



## K Williams (Oct 5, 2002)

1-Forehand diagonal to left temple/ear
2-Backhand diagonal to right temple/ear
3-Forehand horizontal to left elbow/ribs/hip
4-Backhand horizontal to right elbow/ribs/hip
5-Straight thrust to abdomen
6-Downward thrust to left clavicle
7-Downward thrust to right clavicle
8-Backhand diagonal to right knee
9-Forehand diagonal to left knee
10-Straight thrust to left eye
11-Straight thrust to right eye
12-Downward vertical strike to crown of head


----------



## DWright (Oct 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by K Williams _
> 
> *1-Forehand diagonal to left temple/ear
> 2-Backhand diagonal to right temple/ear
> ...



This is exactly as I was taught.

It looks like it could have been taken right out of Dan Andersons
book.

(Do I get points for that Mr. Anderson:rofl: )


----------



## arnisador (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> 
> *It looks like it could have been taken right out of Dan Andersons book.*



He wrote a book?

Why am I always the last to know?


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> 
> *This is exactly as I was taught.
> 
> ...



All sorts of points...no discounts, but all sorts of points.

Yours in finances,
Dan Anderson
 
Buy the book!


----------



## K Williams (Oct 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by DWright _
> 
> *This is exactly as I was taught.
> 
> ...



I don't know anything about Mr. Anderson's book. These are the strikes that were taught to me by my Guro.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 8, 2002)

Dear K Williams,

A couple of posters and I are having fun with each other regarding a book that I wrote.  I would be surprised if you learned them from my book as it has only been out for a few months.  MartialTalk shifts from serious business to good natured fun faster than a speeding bullet sometimes and if you are relatively new or don't know the posters, it can get misleading.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## K Williams (Oct 8, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Dear K Williams,
> 
> ...



Oh OK. Just making sure that no one accuses me of copying information from your book.

Thanks,
K. Williams


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 9, 2002)

K,
(You aren't related to the agent of the same name in Men In Black, are you?)  To catch some of the humor which abounds in MartialTalk, go to the Modern Arnis fourmm thread No Personal Agendas.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## IMAA (Oct 14, 2002)

Hello All

 Well to add gas to the fire here Im going to add what were taught here in INDIANA and it was our 12 basic numerado that I was passed down from Guru Inosanto to Guru Ogle to Me.

1.  Horizontal forehand to the "left" side of the temple, ear,neck.
2.  Horizontal backhand to the Right side of the "                        "
3.  horizontal forehand to the left side of the Ribs,elbow, hip area.
4.  horizontal backhand to the right side of the "                          "
5.  A thrust with the hand grip facing upwards into the lower abdominal area, possibly groin, and have been told to Solar plexas area as well.
6.  A overhead 1or2 handed thrust to the throat/eyes/base under the nose area.
7. reversal thrust same areas (6 and 7 flow together)
8. is like a straight punch to the facial area/throat target with the stick in your hand, could possibly hook the punyo end on contact.
9. forehand to left knee/thigh area
10. backhand right side knee/thigh area
11. is a twrill over head thrustingdownward slash thru body to feet
12.  Is a hard thrustall the way thru cntr if its a sword or a punyo strike to chin if its stick.

These are my 12 strike that I was taught and I pass dwn.  Know ther is an advanced numerado set as well  But what Jeremy was tryng to get at for his point being is what Pressure point targets do you guys if at all focus on with your targets.

Let me start
like angle 1and 2 could attack BL2 above the eye
or TW around the ear
or ST8 on the side of the head

angles 3 and 4 could attack such an area as
HEart 9,8,7,4 on the hands and wrist area
or LI 10, 11, 12 on the outer elbow area etc...

If you are famiar with these charts I beleive thats what he is refering too..... thanks again
and salemat..

Cory


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 15, 2002)

Striking with Control and with the Flow

With Control (* Called Broken striking in some systems *)
1 ) Forehand To the Temple
2 ) Backhand to the Temple
3 ) Horizontal Forehand to the Floating Rib
4 ) Horizontal Back Hand to the Floating Rib
5 ) Thrust to the Abdomen
6 ) Thrust to the Chest / Heart Area
7 ) Back Thrust to the Chest / Upper Lung
8 ) Back Hand down to the Opponents left knee
9 ) Fore Hand to the Opponents right knee
10) Thrust to face / Opponents left eye
11) Thrust to the Face / Opponents right eye
12) Strike down to the Cranium

With Flow - Cutting motion
1 ) Forehand 45 degree strike downwards in the head and upper shoulder area.
2 ) Backhand 45 degree strike downwards in the head and upper shoulder area.
3 ) Horizontal Forehand strike to the mid-section.
4 ) Horizontal backhand strike to the mid-section.
5 ) Thrust to the mid section hooking upwards.
6 ) Thrust to the Chest / Heart area hooking from outside to inside.
7 ) Back Thrust to the Chest / Upper Lung area from outside to inside.
8 ) Strike to the Opponents left knee
9 ) Strike to the Opponents right knee
10) Back Thrust to Opponents right eye
11) Thrust to Opponents left eye
12) Strike down to the Cranium.


Note: 10 and 11 are switched in targeting between Control and Flow.

Just to add to the confusion

Rich


----------



## lhommedieu (Oct 16, 2002)

Re. "What you've described is Cacoy Canetes 12 strikes, rather than THE 12 strikes of Doce Pares! Doce Pares GB uses both the original 12 strikes (see below) and Cacoy's 12 strikes."

Interesting that Momoy Canete has his own version as well:

1.	Diagonal forehand slash to neck or collarbone
2.	Diagonal backhand slash to neck or collarbone
3.	Horizontal forehand slash to waist, hip, or elbow
4.	Horizontal backhand slash to waist, hip or elbow
5.	Thrust to lower right quadrant  palm down
6.	Thrust to lower left quadrant  palm up
7.	Upward forehand diagonal slash to knee or hip
8.	Upward backhand diagonal  slash to knee or hip
9.	Thrust to upper right quadrant  palm down
10.	Thrust to upper left quadrant  palm up
11.	Vertical slash downward to crown of head
12.	High palm-down thrust to temple or eye

The transition from #10 to #11 occurs as a vertical flywheel (redondo); #12 starts from near the ground and comes up under the peripheral vision as a steep forehand thrust.  Thrusts are also known as "sunkets" in this system, due to their hooking action.

In San Miguel Eskrima the 12 Strikes generally taught the first day.  They are used to introduce the student to basic targets and angles of attack. They are also used to train body mechanics, distancing and timing (as footwork is introduced), and to show the importance of covering the centerline.

Best,

Steve Lamade
San Miguel Eskrima


----------



## Angus (Oct 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Damian Mavis _
> 
> *"It's a good thing you don't do any FMA and posted here anyway."
> 
> ...



Call it payback.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 17, 2002)

In addition to the strikes 1-12 I was taught by Remy Presas, any strike to the groin is strike #13.  Just thought you'd like to know.

Dan


----------

