# double #12



## bloodwood (Oct 24, 2002)

I have noticed for some time now the tendency for people to misuse umbrella and slant blocks. This occurs a lot during solo baston semi sparing and in block, check, counter-counter drills as well as in sparing using equipment.
Here's what I've noticed.
After using an umbrella block on a #12 strike and countering with a #1 strike
or
After block, check and counter with a #1 strike of your opponents #2 strike

 When another #12 strike is done following either of these applications many people try to do another standard umbrella block rather than do a right to left slant block or reverse umbrella block. In the time it takes to bring your stick back into position to do another umbrella block you get hit. I have noticed this in many students from different areas of the country and from different backgrounds and ability. I have broken my students of this habit but it took some time and many repeated drills.
Is this just a comfort thing or was the umbrella block over used because it was easier? If anyone has noticed this or can think of some reasons for it's occurrence I'd like to hear your opinions.
:idunno:


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *I have noticed for some time now the tendency for people to misuse umbrella and slant blocks. This occurs a lot during solo baston semi sparing and in block, check, counter-counter drills as well as in sparing using equipment.
> Here's what I've noticed.
> ...



Good Evening Bloodwood,

I can see your point, it would flow so much easier to do the slanting block or the horizontal block. (* Basically the same block, we just breakout the difference sine the block against the number twelve has the can horizontal to the floor, No Big Deal, just semantics on my part, my apologies. *) 

I do think that some people might have a problem with the slanting block. They open up their fingers and either get disarmed and/or hit with their own cane and maybe even their opponents cane also. Therefore I could see where they would not 'trust' the slanting block as much as the they would the umbrella block. So, it could be very likely a comfort zone issue as you pointed out that the Umbrella is easier to execute.

Very good question.

Just my thoughts and ramblings.

Rich


----------



## jaybacca72 (Oct 25, 2002)

if you are doing an umbrella block utilizing the checking hand you are in sumbrada range right?so to respond to the attack with your block and then a number strike and then this is where you say the improper block is being used correct?(bloodwood)wouldn't be quicker to just use your checking hand and parry the on coming 12?this is also assuming the guy isn't crashing in on you with a punyo 12 or 1 angle.
just curious that's all
later
jay


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 25, 2002)

Blood,
My opinion: one of the basic fundamental viewpoints which comes from the _basic give and take flow drill_ is to be able to go from whatever position you are in right at the moment.  What you described above is the attempt to use a favorite move rather than use what is there.  Personally, I feel the slanting block is a rather weak one (unless modified by the Dr. Gyi method) BUT I will do that if that is what "is presented to me" by my positioning right at that exact moment.

If one is trying to use a move which one isn't in position for or continually trying to use a favorite move, they've missed the boat on the Flow.

Opinionatedly yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## bloodwood (Oct 26, 2002)

Great points guys. They all help in understanding why so many misuse this block.
Rich
I like it when people ramble on, that's when they let you know what's really on their minds. I hadn't considered the loose open finger grip for the block, I guess I just do it without thinking because I have big hands but I can see where this palm up grip could cause a problem for some with small or weak hands. Keep rambling.
Jay
A live hand pass in this situation is the quickest route to avoiding getting hit and easily substituted for the slant block. Which ever one you can get there quicker?
Remember DR G says, nobody hits you with a stick, they use a sledge hammer or a shovel. Which block you gonna use?
Dan
Favorite techniques are hard to break people of. They tend to try and use them in situations that don't apply. Using what's available and from any situation or position IS what it's all about. FLOW.  With time and the right teacher eventually students will be more instinctive and respond without thinking and just do the right thing.

Another point I believe makes people think they should use the umbrella in these situations is the speed or timing of the drills. At a slow training speed they feel they have the time to bring their stick back to the other side to perform another umbrella block but in real time while they're making the move to get into position for their block they're getting hit.   :hammer:


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 26, 2002)

Whamo! :hammer: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by bloodwood _
> 
> *Great points guys. They all help in understanding why so many misuse this block.
> Rich
> ...





Bloodwood,

I will hold this against you in the future. You asked for my Ramblings.  

Good points though

Rich


----------



## DoctorB (Oct 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Blood,
> My opinion: one of the basic fundamental viewpoints which comes from the basic give and take flow drill is to be able to go from whatever position you are in right at the moment.  What you described above is the attempt to use a favorite move rather than use what is there.  Personally, I feel the slanting block is a rather weak one (unless modified by the Dr. Gyi method) BUT I will do that if that is what "is presented to me" by my positioning right at that exact moment.
> ...



Hello Dan,

You got the it right on target - too many people trying to do a favorite tactic or defense rather than moving from where they are to where they need to be at that moment.  I also agree that the slant is a weak block, however I avoid the Gyi method in favor of stepping on an angle forward and to my left while blocking.  The stick was originally at or below my own waist and on my right side.  I do not want to move ACROSS the decending arc of the attacking stick, therefore the movement to my own left side.

In short, the real answer to Bloodwood's concerns is to teach good tactical response of defending from where the defender's stick is rather than trying to make the defense working according to the defender's favorite technique.  

It is also possible that there are two other blocks and tactics that could be employed, however they are totally overlooked in the Modern Arnis System as taught by the followers of the late GM.

Sincerely,

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## bloodwood (Oct 28, 2002)

DoctorB
If you would kindly tell us about these other two blocks it would be greatly appreciated.  :asian:

 I'm always looking to add new things or be reminded of things I may have forgotten.


----------



## arnisandyz (Oct 29, 2002)

Maybe you could play with the timing?  After the umbrella block, check and counter, another 2 from the attacker comes before the counter gets there.  The student has to change from thinking about hitting the temple to dealing with the incoming stick , hence, it may be a way to cultivate  the 'flow" in an arranged sequence.

Hate to be cliche, but that economy of motion thing is a good training aid to get students to understand, or else you could just hit them until they figure out why!


----------



## arnisandyz (Oct 29, 2002)

Can someone explain what a "slanting block" is in your system?

Thanks


----------



## Black Grass (Oct 29, 2002)

Bloodwood wrote:
After using an umbrella block on a #12 strike and countering with a #1 strike
or
After block, check and counter with a #1 strike of your opponents #2 strike

When another #12 strike is done following either of these applications many people try to do another standard umbrella block rather than do a right to left slant block or reverse umbrella block. 

Me :
Its not nessarily bad doing repeating umbrella blocks. They can be applied effectively in both situations listed above. The deciding factor is your position in relation to your opponent and the position of your stick at the time.

This is valid observation in Modern Arnis where the players tend to be more rooted. But in situations where you are driving your oppontent back or trying to out flank him this is an acceptable technique esspecially when your #1 strike follows thru or your hand ends in a lower position after your #1.

I actually think the slant (or pluma (pen)) is not a particularly good technique for most Modern Arnis (MA) players as it requires footwork because of its generally week structure on its own (as stated by Dan Anderson). 

Most MA players execute techniques more rooted similar to MA parent art Balintiwak. In fact, Balintiwak does not block use this block I beleive for this reason. But Renegade would be better to answer this.

regards,
Black Grass

(You should post this stuff on the general FMA board it is a good topic. I'm not a Modern Arnis practioner anymore but the more intresting topics are in this forum)


----------



## arnisador (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisandyz _
> 
> *Can someone explain what a "slanting block" is in your system? *



Hold your right hand in front of your face, holding a stick, palm facing out. Tilt the tip of the stick down 30-45 degrees. That's *very roughly* the roof block (though you'd have your hand higher than that for application, etc.).

Hold your right hand in front of your face, holding a stick, palm facing in. Tilt the tip of the stick down 30-45 degrees. That's *very roughly* the slant block (though you'd have your hand higher and often more to the side than that for application, etc.).

Before anyone corrects me on these positions, please understand that I'm trying to get the general idea across using text only--these aren't the exact positions, footwork and the live hand matter, and so on. I'm hoping this will get the idea throygh as I imagine most systems have something similar to the roof and slant blocks! If someone can say it better, please do.


----------



## bloodwood (Nov 1, 2002)

I think another reason for people to misuse a technique or to be stuck in the rut of over using their favorite techniques is that many work on one technique at a time and don't string strikes and blocks together for rapid fire application, when timing kicks in and is critical. There aren't enough advanced classes available for training advanced movements and getting students to think in Flow mode. I guess that happens more in commercial schools as opposed to small groups that do not cater to children or new students. They have the advantage of training with more advanced people are able to push the envelope.


----------



## arnisandyz (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> Hold your right hand in front of your face, holding a stick, palm facing in. Tilt the tip of the stick down 30-45 degrees. That's *very roughly* the slant block (though you'd have your hand higher and often more to the side than that for application, etc.).
> 
> ...


----------



## DoctorB (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> 
> Me :
> Its not nessarily bad doing repeating umbrella blocks. They can be applied effectively in both situations listed above. The deciding factor is your position in relation to your opponent and the position of your stick at the time.
> ...



Hey there Black Grass,

I suspect that you are correct about slant block not being a particularly good technique for most Modern Arnis players and your reasoning behind that conclusion is also correct.  I would like to point out that I made the same point as Dan Anderson in one of my posts on this topic.  In addition I would also point you toward Rocky Paswik and with some modesty, myself, in addition to Tim Hartman, with regard to Balintawak and the use/non usage of the slant block.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 1, 2002)

I don't like the slant block either; I never use it. I teach it because the Professor did. It always felt weak to me, unless you had made up so muchground by footwork that it was a just-in-case cover (which is always the ideal if you're going to use a block but not always the reality). Umbrella of course I like.


----------



## Black Grass (Nov 1, 2002)

Dr. Barber,

Re-read your post ( sorry I don't know how i missed it the first time) I would add another point to your point of steping to the left, in regards to a slant block. The use of closed finger grip. The open finger grip is nice way of getting your stick knocked out of your hand . Some of the old masters might have been able to do it this way, but most of us can't. Even such ilustrious instructors as PG Edgar Sulite and one of his teachers the infamous Tatang Ilustrisimo advocated a closed finger grip.

Ineffective use of the pluma (pen or slant block) I believe is common among many FMA players not just in Modern Arnis.

Dr. B you make mention of 2 other blocks not used in Modern Arnis that could be used inlue (sp?) of the Slant block. Are these blocks/tactics in MA but not used by MA players or block/tactics not in MA at all? Also what is Dr. Gyi's method. Can you please elborate ?

Black Grass

BTW No slight intend in regrads to knowledge of Balintawak. I was unaware of your involement in Balintawak and I didn't think R. Paswik was  member of this forum.


----------



## bloodwood (Nov 1, 2002)

A 45 degree angle on a standard umbrella block accompanied by a rushing in move is a good entry in sparing. The Dog Bros. use a flying umbrella block as a combat entry move. From what I saw it looks like leaping at your opponent while doing an umbrella block then going on the offense after you have safely closed the distance. Again, combat and training drills are two different animals and should not be mistaken for each other. Too many people think that a drill can be used in fighting rather than taking one movement out of the drill and using it. Each movement in a drill is a full technique in itself.  As soon as this clicks in your head the sooner you will realize the Flow concept.


----------



## DoctorB (Nov 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Black Grass _
> 
> *Dr. Barber,
> 
> ...



Hi Black Grass,

No Problem with regard to missing my post - I have done the same thing quite a few times on this forum - it is just the nature of how the program is set up and the timing of the posts coming up.

We are again in total agreement, the open finger method of slant or wing blocking is an invitation to disaster via losing one's stick upon impact.  The same problem is evident in twirling the stick.  I am quite aware that some styles/systems do not advocate twirling, just as some others use the technique.  Professor, did teach twirling and when properly used it has a place in one's arsenal of techniques - but it must be used sparingly.

Damn, did I make another typo (inclu)?   Sorry about that.  The additional blocks are deflections based on the #1 and #2 strikes.
They are part of the Modern Arnis System as taught by Professor.
He used them, but did not specificly teach or name them.  I learned the names as forward and reverse "spike blocks".    In other words, your stick tip is pointed up unlike the umbrella and wing/slant blocks.   Bodyshifting and good wrist snapping are essential with these blocks/ deflections.  These blocks are more frequently used  in a family eskrima style that was taught in Hawaii in the 1960 - 80's and in American Modern Arnis.  

I would be happy to show you these two techniques if you get down to Buffalo or I get up to Toronto.

I really can not elaborate on anything that Dr. Gyi is teaching since I only attended one of his seminars and that was nearly 10 years ago.

Rocky, just came on board the forum within the last week or so. My training in Balintawak is under GM Bobby Taboada, who, BTW, does use and teach the slant block.  His idea is that the slant/wing block is a weak block that should be part of your training but definately not your primary tool.  

Appartently the inclusion of the slant block in the Taboada version of Balintawak, comes from his training under the late GM Jose Villisan, who used a "softer" style than did the late GGM Bacon.  It seems that each of the original Balintawak masters added bits of their own personality to the art even though  they all had GGM Bacon in common as their master instructor.  Professor Presas, used Balintawak as one of three  major building blocks for his art of Modern Arnis. 

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------



## arnisandyz (Nov 3, 2002)

I think I get the idea of your "slant block" now.  I was mistaken in associating it with a wing.  It sounds more like what we call a "shield" in sombrada or a pluma as someone else stated.  Used by itself it is very weak, must be supported by the live hand and with zoning to deal with power.


----------



## Black Grass (Nov 5, 2002)

Bloodwood:
>A 45 degree angle on a standard umbrella block accompanied by a rushing in move is a good entry in sparing. The Dog Bros. use a flying umbrella block as a combat entry move. 

Me:
I believe this is a fairly common entry. Most guys come in with a #12 or #1. A move that I like which I have seen Pekiti Tirsia guys use it a #5 thrust as the attack after the umbrella.

A question to Modern Players how would counter an opponent with a umbrella cover (start of a new thread ?)

Doc B:
>Professor Presas, used Balintawak as one of three major building blocks for his art of Modern Arnis. 

Me:
Presas Arnis, Balintawak what was the third?

Vince


----------



## arnisador (Nov 5, 2002)

> how would counter an opponent with a umbrella cover



Ideally, by hitting the hand holding the stick and not the blocking stick itself. Back up and defang.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Nov 6, 2002)

If you look at the bladed usage fo the slanting block, it is quite an efficient method of getting your opponent to help slice his arm.  They cut downward - you cut upward - blood spurts.

Against a percussion instrument it is a different story and I side with Dr. Gyi on this one.  Unless you brace your wrist when using the slanting block (or sue the check hand to do the majority of the defense by passing the strike) that stick is going to copme slamming into your ribs hard enough to wake you out of a sound sleep.

Yep.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## DoctorB (Nov 7, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Ideally, by hitting the hand holding the stick and not the blocking stick itself. Back up and defang. *



Good response.  I would use the umbrella block, push the opponent's arm away and to my left side, the counter with
a "drop" (downward) strike and a #5 thrust to the chest.  
The latter strike is intended to make the opponent step back
to gain the room to follow-up with a finishing strike of choice.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.


----------

