# Lack Of Power In Techniques



## MJS (Aug 8, 2011)

One thing I notice when watching some people do techniques is the lack of power in the strikes.  Seems alot of the time, people are just going thru the movements, barely making any contact, or moving the body.  I could see this, perhaps when they're first learning something...of course you want to go slow to get things down, but even when the speed is picked up, its more light touch/slappy stuff, instead of contact.

I've always said that the arts involve contact.  Why people can't understand this, is beyond me.  Nothing is more frustrating, when you see someone do this, go to correct them, and within seconds, they're right back to doing what they were doing before.  Isnt this part of what makes Kenpo, Kenpo?  The contact, controlling the body, etc.

Anyone else experience this while teaching a class, or during seminars/camps?


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## Stealthy (Aug 8, 2011)

Seems I tend to say this more often than anything else...

 "If you don't hit me, I *WILL* hit you".


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## Cyriacus (Aug 8, 2011)

Well, where I train, if you dont put Power into your Techniques; A: You wont be Promoted. B: Youll be constantly shouted at by Instructers. C: If you suddenly lose interest and stop adding Power for no good reason youll be demoted.

And were constantly reminded of what is pretty much a catchphrase, which is MORE POWER.

Optionally, 50 Pushups.

In short, i believe that Technique without Power shouldnt be possible. I mean, if you want to just do the motions, go do Yoga or something.
Not a Combatative Art.


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## Carol (Aug 8, 2011)

Its annoying.  I think most folks want to get hit during class...including me, and I'm not exactly the toughest thing around. 

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk


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## Thesemindz (Aug 9, 2011)

During training there's a fine line between appropriate contact and too much contact. Especially when you are working static techniques against a compliant dummy It's one thing to smack somebody around during sparring, when they're trying to defend themselves and fight back. It's a whole other thing to smack somebody around during technique practice when they're just standing there not trying to defend themselves. I'm sure you already know that, but I think it bears mentioning when discussing this topic.


-Rob


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## Danjo (Aug 9, 2011)

One fights how one trains. If there is no contact in training, there will be none in a fight. I agree with Rob, that one has to remember the difference between technique practice and sparring. In technique practice, one should contact enough to get used to it and to toughen up the uke/dummy, but not so much to injure him. Getting used to getting hit is important, but one doesn't need injuries every time one punches in for someone.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Stealthy said:


> Seems I tend to say this more often than anything else...
> 
> "If you don't hit me, I *WILL* hit you".



Exactly!  IMO, not even making the slightest attempt to hit, is doing more harm than good.  Imagine the look on the face of these people who pull punches and train with others who also pull punches, when the 18yo punk on the street, throws a punch and knocks your *** to the ground.  I wonder if the words, "Gee, I've been training for 4yrs, and got knocked on my ***" will come to mind. LOL.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, where I train, if you dont put Power into your Techniques; A: You wont be Promoted. B: Youll be constantly shouted at by Instructers. C: If you suddenly lose interest and stop adding Power for no good reason youll be demoted.
> 
> And were constantly reminded of what is pretty much a catchphrase, which is MORE POWER.
> 
> ...



And this is a quality school!  Sadly, alot of places dont share this same sentiment, due to fear of losing students.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> During training there's a fine line between appropriate contact and too much contact. Especially when you are working static techniques against a compliant dummy It's one thing to smack somebody around during sparring, when they're trying to defend themselves and fight back. It's a whole other thing to smack somebody around during technique practice when they're just standing there not trying to defend themselves. I'm sure you already know that, but I think it bears mentioning when discussing this topic.
> 
> 
> -Rob



Good points.  But, even during stationary technique training, if medium contact can't be made, thats a problem, IMO.  As for fighting back....yes, thats the next step, IMO, when working the techniques.  Of course, caution needs to be exercised, otherwise the technique training will turn into a sparring session.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Danjo said:


> One fights how one trains. If there is no contact in training, there will be none in a fight. I agree with Rob, that one has to remember the difference between technique practice and sparring. In technique practice, one should contact enough to get used to it and to toughen up the uke/dummy, but not so much to injure him. Getting used to getting hit is important, but one doesn't need injuries every time one punches in for someone.



Exactly!  For clarification, I wasn't suggesting so much contact that people are heading to the ER after each class, but when you dont make any contact......


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## Flying Crane (Aug 9, 2011)

I do not believe that the problem lies so much in a lack of CONTACT, but rather a lack of understanding how to fully engage the body to deliver real power.  Most people are driving their techniques with simple arm strength.  That can be OK if one is physically strong, but it misses the much much greater power the the body offers when used as a unit.  I believe that people simply do not understand how, and were never properly taught how to do this.


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## Stealthy (Aug 9, 2011)

Thesemindz said:


> During training there's a fine line between appropriate contact and too much contact. Especially when you are working static techniques against a compliant dummy It's one thing to smack somebody around during sparring, when they're trying to defend themselves and fight back. It's a whole other thing to smack somebody around during technique practice when they're just standing there not trying to defend themselves. I'm sure you already know that, but I think it bears mentioning when discussing this topic.
> 
> 
> -Rob



I believe during static techniques against a compliant dummy is the *best* time to condition both hitting and getting hit, provided it is the compliant dummy that is dictating the level of contact with constant feedback.

In a controlled environment like this you have the best chance of minimizing accidents and injuries.

When the complexity of the drilling increases then the contact should become less of a focus since there should already be a naturally high level anyway from previous drills. Then when even complex drills are easy and safe then partner feedback should come back into play to ensure contact is at the threshold of what the Uke can handle.

When drills can not get anymore complex due to un-nominated attacks with any weapon at any target along any attack vector while retaining control over contact, it is safe to say merely taking off the gloves is the final step to an actual fight.


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## MarkC (Aug 9, 2011)

There should be no such thing as a compliant dummy after the initial learning of a particular technique or sequence.


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## Stealthy (Aug 9, 2011)

MarkC said:


> There should be no such thing as a compliant dummy after the initial learning of a particular technique or sequence.



Not necessarily.

If you are merely trading blows one for one then sure but if you are trying to hone the reflexes of capitalizing on a successful hit then you first need to get in that hit.

For example, evade/block/counter-strike -> solid strike -> throw....will never get conditioned if that first counter-strike never connects.

What you need is "controlled resistance" whereby the Uki is resistant but in an ultimately compliant way such that the hit can be scored but you need to work for it.

So as much as you want to condition "controlled contact" you also want "controlled resistance" to make sure you both work for it and connect hard.

Fully non-compliant partners are fine for one-hit trading only....Granted, for that purpose they are essential since it is off that first hit that a sequence follows so both defending against one and getting one in are essential.


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## OKenpo942 (Aug 17, 2011)

I agree with the quote "To hear is to doubt, to see is to be decieved, to feel is to believe". Kinda says it all. thank you.

James


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 17, 2011)

I agree with this. Look at most Kenpo people spar. Kenpo sparring in most schools looks like watered down kick boxing. Why not learn to use your techniques in a live manner instead of standing with your feet together waiting for a called attack to come. It's no wonder many Kenpo students can't fight. People should put some gear on and go at it hard, none of that slap happy BS.


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## SuperFLY (Aug 18, 2011)

i get frustrated with this as well in my Karate.

you'll be practising techniques but sometimes i could just stand there and they'll never make contact. whats the point?

during my last grading doing my sets i was partnered with a girl and the first punch (jodan/head punch) went somewhere off to my left?!?! i stepped back to do the technique and completely missed her arm. i looked at her for a second and she said 'do you want to do that again?' and i said 'yeh, and this time actually aim for me!' no point doing a technique if its not on target in the first place...

i've rightly or wrongly mentioned this to my sensei too. we were practicing all 5 sets and he was taking a huge step back each time so his punches, although on target, were never going to properly reach me. i asked him to get in closer, he took it as me being a little cocky and punched a hell of a lot quicker from a much closer position. still blocked it  and it felt great. i felt like i actually HAD to block it. i like that feeling, feels 'real'.


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## Mark Jordan (Aug 18, 2011)

In Kenpo power is more important than learning separate techniques.


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 18, 2011)

Mark Jordan said:


> In Kenpo power is more important than learning separate techniques.



Yes, this is true, but in Kenpo looking flashy and firing off 1000 slaps without even a minimal position change seems to be the norm.


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## punisher73 (Aug 18, 2011)

I think that is the advantage of some of the "traditional" karate styles.  They spend A LOT of time on basics and getting them down before moving on.  I think that proper basics get lost in the rush to get to the "fancy" S-D techniques.  Because those are alot more fun to train.  Sometimes I wonder if some students don't hit hard because they don't really know HOW to hit hard.  They only do air techniques and then light contact on a compliant partner, where is the transition to hit hard and go through the technique even if it is just on B.O.B. or a heavy bag or a pad holder?


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## MarkC (Aug 18, 2011)

This is something that irritates the hell out of me too.
Yet plenty of these guys (and women) think they would actually be able to defend themselves.


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 18, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> I think that is the advantage of some of the "traditional" karate styles.  They spend A LOT of time on basics and getting them down before moving on.  I think that proper basics get lost in the rush to get to the "fancy" S-D techniques.  Because those are alot more fun to train.  Sometimes I wonder if some students don't hit hard because they don't really know HOW to hit hard.  They only do air techniques and then light contact on a compliant partner, where is the transition to hit hard and go through the technique even if it is just on B.O.B. or a heavy bag or a pad holder?



 It makes more sense to me to learn all of the basics at white belt and refine them as one progresses through the ranks. I have been told by some people the reason the basics are broken up over several ranks is that some of the basic moves are too advanced to learn at white belt. I think that is nonsense. There is no reason why all of the basics cannot be taught and learned at white belt, none. Some of the basic moves are just plain ridiculous. Chicken kicks for example are not worth the energy expended to pull them off.


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## punisher73 (Aug 19, 2011)

hongkongfooey said:


> It makes more sense to me to learn all of the basics at white belt and refine them as one progresses through the ranks. I have been told by some people the reason the basics are broken up over several ranks is that some of the basic moves are too advanced to learn at white belt. I think that is nonsense. There is no reason why all of the basics cannot be taught and learned at white belt, none. Some of the basic moves are just plain ridiculous. Chicken kicks for example are not worth the energy expended to pull them off.



I can't remember where I first heard/read it, but I really like the 80/20 principle.  To sum it up, 80% of your results are going to come from 20% of your effort.  In application to MA, that 20% is your basics, and 80% of your time should be spent training them.  The other 20% of your time can be spent training the lower percentage moves like a chicken kick (just look at Machida's KO of Couture to see it has a place and time).

I remember a thread from Dr. Dave (posts on MT as Kempoka-BudoKai I believe) in which I asked him about an old school training routine and there was alot of emphasis on training the basics and getting them to a sharp edge.  I also think of it like this, if you can't get your first two moves to work (block and strike) does it matter what else you attempt to do from your vast repitoire of S-D techniques?  You need to hit hard to stun/damage your attacker to buy yourself time plain and simple.


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## Razor (Aug 19, 2011)

I think a lot of the problem is with beginners, and they need it trained out from them.

When I started, my punches were probably not powerful enough, but quite soon I was performing kata with a 3rd dan who is a lot bigger than me and didn't pull any punches. Essentially, I knew if I didn't block or evade properly, I was going to be hit and it would hurt. I think that's a good way to get beginners accustomed to how much power you should have.

EDIT: I don't actually train in Kempo, but think it applies to many martial arts!


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 19, 2011)

I think like you do regarding the defender's response to an attack. If one is able to recover from an attack and their offense is weak, they may as well pack it up and go home. I always like to hear people talk about how the extensions will save them if their technique (not the ideal phase techniques) is not effective. I hope these people understand that the real world is not like the dojo. I'm pretty sure that people just don't stand there stiff as a board, with their arm locked out in front of them waiting for the 1000 slaps of vengeance that are on the way.:uhyeah:

I'll have to check out the Machida/ Couture footage. It just may help change my mind about chicken kicks.


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## just2kicku (Aug 21, 2011)

I agree that basics are your fundamentals, without them its like building a house starting at the roof with no foundation. The days of practicing basics for 2 hours a night I believe has gone by the wayside in this day and age. Instructors are doing it for a living now instead of having a job and teaching for the love of the art. Catering to what the student wants equals rent being paid and a new car. Crazy!


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi folks!
Been awhile since I've been on the boards here at MT! I had some time and was reading this thread. For the most part, I agreed with the majority of opinions,However, When I read this statement,I had to disagree. I understand the initial idea behind dealing with a "non compliant dummy"but at that point there still has to be some level of compliancy because if a "dummy" consistently resists my actions and or reactions, I will have to bring it to the point that I may have to use full contact to get my "point" across. To the majority of mass, one can take various strikes but without some level of conpliancy The various more lethal strikes will now become exactly that, lethal. We don't ant to poke out our partners eyes or rupture their eardrums to "get our point across". However, we can "agree" to use more contact so that we "both" can benefit from the training experience. I'm reminded of a quote from Mr. Parker "Remember:My control is only as good as YOUR control!"  Many tmes, I've dealt with "Stone Dummies" who would not respond to your techniques but when it was their turn they would hit you full blast...until you responded by hitting them just as hard! then it was "You don't have to hit THAT hard!" from them! We are supposed to regulate the amount of contact so as to enable our fellow kenpoist to achieve a greater level of endurance and durability so that when they are attacked on the street and they are actually hit,their response should be "I get hit harder in class!"
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


MarkC said:


> There should be no such thing as a compliant dummy after the initial learning of a particular technique or sequence.


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi folks!
We initially stand in a "natural stance" [or as I decoratively refer to it, the "I don't know karate" stance [which,btw,Frank Trejo has used many a time to lull an opponent into a false sense of confidence] because most people who actually attack you don't "fight fair" an drop into a stance to drop YOU! Most people are more tan happy to sucker punch you when you aren't "ready" or even looking! So, you had better learn how to react from the "Officer, I was just standing here and then he attacked me" stance. Also, I tend to enjoy the "Beautiful Intelligent Tender Caring Human" slap to get my opponent's attention or to distract him from the more deadly actions that I don't want him to see! Many of the later techniques address standing in a fighting stance but understand that the natural stance w/ hands up in a "passive" position is a fighting stance as well.
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


hongkongfooey said:


> I agree with this. Look at most Kenpo people spar. Kenpo sparring in most schools looks like watered down kick boxing. Why not learn to use your techniques in a live manner instead of standing with your feet together waiting for a called attack to come. It's no wonder many Kenpo students can't fight. People should put some gear on and go at it hard, none of that slap happy BS.


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 29, 2011)

Hi folks!
Mr. Parker was once asked "Why do people from XXX traditional style look so much better than kenpo people who hold comparable rank in the undergrade ranks?" his response "When you only have 6 letters of the alphabet to learn,then it is easier to get good at those 6 letters. But by the same token,what happen when someone uses letters you ae not familiar with? Kenpo practitioners learn a diverse series of techniques at an earlier level to evenly familiarize them with realistic attacks that occur on the streets of today. They [kenpoists] have a greater understanding of the various scenarios that can and will happen to them."fancy" techniques? Most of the yellow,orange and even purple self defense techniques are only 3 to 6 major movements in length.Depends on what a given individual considers "fancy". Now fancy that!LOL!
I hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


punisher73 said:


> I think that is the advantage of some of the "traditional" karate styles.  They spend A LOT of time on basics and getting them down before moving on.  I think that proper basics get lost in the rush to get to the "fancy" S-D techniques.  Because those are alot more fun to train.  Sometimes I wonder if some students don't hit hard because they don't really know HOW to hit hard.  They only do air techniques and then light contact on a compliant partner, where is the transition to hit hard and go through the technique even if it is just on B.O.B. or a heavy bag or a pad holder?


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## punisher73 (Aug 29, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Mr. Parker was once asked "Why do people from XXX traditional style look so much better than kenpo people who hold comparable rank in the undergrade ranks?" his response "When you only have 6 letters of the alphabet to learn,then it is easier to get good at those 6 letters. But by the same token,what happen when someone uses letters you ae not familiar with? Kenpo practitioners learn a diverse series of techniques at an earlier level to evenly familiarize them with realistic attacks that occur on the streets of today. They [kenpoists] have a greater understanding of the various scenarios that can and will happen to them."fancy" techniques? Most of the yellow,orange and even purple self defense techniques are only 3 to 6 major movements in length.Depends on what a given individual considers "fancy". Now fancy that!LOL!
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



I didn't mean "fancy" as in non-functional.  I meant "fancy" as in more fascinating to a new student and more fun to work on.  Many beginners want to gloss through the foundations and go on to material that they deem "funner".  You can see it in more traditional arts too, where the student tries to bypass good basic training so they can start to work on katas etc.


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## DavidCC (Aug 29, 2011)

I don't believe practicing techniques with a partner is the right time to be working to develop power in your strikes.  With proper mechanics power will be there.  More power than you can use with a partner.  IMHO it's an oxymoron - I am training to develop the ability to deliver more power by making contact with my partner and pulling my power so he doesn't get hurt.  I don;t believe heavy contact in technique practice is required to learn to hit well.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Been awhile since I've been on the boards here at MT! I had some time and was reading this thread. For the most part, I agreed with the majority of opinions,However, When I read this statement,I had to disagree. I understand the initial idea behind dealing with a "non compliant dummy"but at that point there still has to be some level of compliancy because if a "dummy" consistently resists my actions and or reactions, I will have to bring it to the point that I may have to use full contact to get my "point" across. To the majority of mass, one can take various strikes but without some level of conpliancy The various more lethal strikes will now become exactly that, lethal. We don't ant to poke out our partners eyes or rupture their eardrums to "get our point across". However, we can "agree" to use more contact so that we "both" can benefit from the training experience. I'm reminded of a quote from Mr. Parker "Remember:My control is only as good as YOUR control!"  Many tmes, I've dealt with "Stone Dummies" who would not respond to your techniques but when it was their turn they would hit you full blast...until you responded by hitting them just as hard! then it was "You don't have to hit THAT hard!" from them! We are supposed to regulate the amount of contact so as to enable our fellow kenpoist to achieve a greater level of endurance and durability so that when they are attacked on the street and they are actually hit,their response should be "I get hit harder in class!"
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



I think this article sums it up pretty nice. 
http://www.straightblastgym.com/aliveness101.html

especially the part where he talks about the "I" method.  When first learning, yes, the uke should be compliant, so as to allow the student a chance to get to learn the technique.  And yes, as resistance is gradually introduced, the uke still needs to take into consideration that when we simulate the eye shot or any hit that would, if it were really applied, cause a reaction, that they should act accordingly.  I've worked with some people who couldn't grasp this, thus forcing me to hit them or do something to them to make the tech work.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> We initially stand in a "natural stance" [or as I decoratively refer to it, the "I don't know karate" stance [which,btw,Frank Trejo has used many a time to lull an opponent into a false sense of confidence] because most people who actually attack you don't "fight fair" an drop into a stance to drop YOU! Most people are more tan happy to sucker punch you when you aren't "ready" or even looking! So, you had better learn how to react from the "Officer, I was just standing here and then he attacked me" stance. Also, I tend to enjoy the "Beautiful Intelligent Tender Caring Human" slap to get my opponent's attention or to distract him from the more deadly actions that I don't want him to see! Many of the later techniques address standing in a fighting stance but understand that the natural stance w/ hands up in a "passive" position is a fighting stance as well.
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



I tend to work all of my techs from that natural stance.  I do that, because the majority of the time, thats how I'm standing.   I also like to work things from a slightly bladed stance.  This isn't the 'fighting stance' neutral bow, or anything like that, simply a non threatening, slightly bladed stance, which will still keep my feet shoulder length apart, but will give me a bit more movement, than simply standing naturally.


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> Mr. Parker was once asked "Why do people from XXX traditional style look so much better than kenpo people who hold comparable rank in the undergrade ranks?" his response "When you only have 6 letters of the alphabet to learn,then it is easier to get good at those 6 letters. But by the same token,what happen when someone uses letters you ae not familiar with? Kenpo practitioners learn a diverse series of techniques at an earlier level to evenly familiarize them with realistic attacks that occur on the streets of today. They [kenpoists] have a greater understanding of the various scenarios that can and will happen to them."fancy" techniques? Most of the yellow,orange and even purple self defense techniques are only 3 to 6 major movements in length.Depends on what a given individual considers "fancy". Now fancy that!LOL!
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE


 


punisher73 said:


> I didn't mean "fancy" as in non-functional.  I meant "fancy" as in more fascinating to a new student and more fun to work on.  Many beginners want to gloss through the foundations and go on to material that they deem "funner".  You can see it in more traditional arts too, where the student tries to bypass good basic training so they can start to work on katas etc.



While I agree that the art of Kenpo provides us with a vast array of tools, sometimes I can't help but think that there are too many tools in the box.  Students tend to focus on the 'fancy' things, such as the long drawn out techniques, such as Dance of Death.  Long tech, lots of moves, it looks cool, because you're beating the hell out of the person...lol.  Yet in reality, is that practical?  

To each his own I suppose, but for me, I'm a believer in the KISS principle.  We're all getting to the same end point, only difference is that some get there a bit quicker.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 1, 2011)

I have run into this a lot since i started teaching. Even when i am having people work the techniques on me. Standing 6'3" and weighing 250lbs im pretty tough. I have to constantly tell people to make contact or that they arent going to break me.

One thing i have discovered is that if they go to perform a technique and it lacks force, i will usually counter to show them they need to mean it. that gets their attention pretty quick when they end up on their backs on the mats.

B


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## MasterPain (Sep 1, 2011)

I believe that some folks just need to slow down their movement a bit.  Super fast combinations don't have a lot of power.  Slow down a little and focus on putting body behind each strike.

Thanks.


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## hongkongfooey (Sep 1, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> Hi folks!
> We initially stand in a "natural stance" [or as I decoratively refer to it, the "I don't know karate" stance [which,btw,Frank Trejo has used many a time to lull an opponent into a false sense of confidence] because most people who actually attack you don't "fight fair" an drop into a stance to drop YOU! Most people are more tan happy to sucker punch you when you aren't "ready" or even looking! So, you had better learn how to react from the "Officer, I was just standing here and then he attacked me" stance. Also, I tend to enjoy the "Beautiful Intelligent Tender Caring Human" slap to get my opponent's attention or to distract him from the more deadly actions that I don't want him to see! Many of the later techniques address standing in a fighting stance but understand that the natural stance w/ hands up in a "passive" position is a fighting stance as well.
> I hope that I was of some service,
> KENPOJOE



 No amount of Kenpo training will prepare you for an attack (sucker punch) that you don't see coming. I also stand by my statement that many Kenpo people can't fight. They can spout off terminology, talk about principles, and work techniques on a compliant partner when they know what the attack is. Take away the comfort of knowing how and where you are going to be attacked and the Kenpo goes right out the window.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 2, 2011)

hongkongfooey said:


> No amount of Kenpo training will prepare you for an attack (sucker punch) that you don't see coming. I also stand by my statement that many Kenpo people can't fight. They can spout off terminology, talk about principles, and work techniques on a compliant partner when they know what the attack is. Take away the comfort of knowing how and where you are going to be attacked and the Kenpo goes right out the window.


No Training can. Because no matter how skilled you are, youre still made of Bones, Muscles, Organs, and their related Functions.
Now, most Engagements dont take place with a Sucker Punch. Its rare for someone to say "Oh look at that guy - Lets go punch him in the Head from behind!".
Most of the time, you either know the Person, or they Confront you first, or the give you a harsh Push.
Conditioning is about the only thing thatll help you, since itll allow you to be struck numerous times, and still regain some sense of Control, in order to Retaliate. But ultimately, you have to assume that even if you see the attack coming, you WILL be hit. And if youre not?
Thats Nice! Pat yourself on the back Sir!

Because its better to Expect the Worst, than Dredge it out with Optimism.

And as for some People not being able to Fight - Some People dont have Fighting in them. I consider them good sources of Information though, as they tend to sponge it up. They also make for good Assistant Instructers.
But those of any Art who can really Fight, are usually Pretty Good at it.

I imagine Kenpo works the same way.



MasterPain said:


> I believe that some folks just need to slow  down their movement a bit.  Super fast combinations don't have a lot of  power.  Slow down a little and focus on putting body behind each strike.
> 
> Thanks.



That depends on Experience, and the Style. For example, Speed may not be 100% Power, but Speed itself can BE Powerful.
Im of the belief that all MA should strive for Power, above all else. And Speed is an aspect of Power. It NEEDS to be learnt, just perhaps not right away.
A Black Belt isnt going to be too great, if he can generate the most Power in the World, at a lowered Rate of Speed.
(Bare with me. I couldnt think of any non-extraditionary explanation of what im trying to say )
Therefore, could it not be beneficial to Teach Speed from the very Beginning, but to constantly remind the Student that it is not their Main Priority?


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## LawDog (Sep 2, 2011)

HongKong,
I don't know you but it is very obvious that you have had limited contact with the overall Kenpo community. Yes there are many "sports" type of Kenpo schools out there and there are also many Kenpo schools that "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk". However there is a very large group of kenpoists that can back up what they say. Out on the west coast there are the Kaju systems and the Ralph Castro systems along with many many others. On the east coast there are the SGM Cerios schools and the SGM Pesare's schools along with those who came from their lineage. The best way to personally prove out your opinon is to walk into one of the mentioned schools and call them a bunch of candy a _ _ _ _ and see what happens.
One should not blanket an entire style because of a few contacts that one has made or what one reads in a forum.
p.s. Kaju is not Kenpo but many of todays Kenpo systems are from their lineage.
Nothing personal here just my opinon about a slap in the face we kenpoists received.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 2, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> That depends on Experience, and the Style. For example, Speed may not be 100% Power, but Speed itself can BE Powerful.
> Im of the belief that all MA should strive for Power, above all else. And Speed is an aspect of Power. It NEEDS to be learnt, just perhaps not right away.
> A Black Belt isnt going to be too great, if he can generate the most Power in the World, at a lowered Rate of Speed.
> (Bare with me. I couldnt think of any non-extraditionary explanation of what im trying to say )
> Therefore, could it not be beneficial to Teach Speed from the very Beginning, but to constantly remind the Student that it is not their Main Priority?



I see what you are trying to point out...I think.

Speed and power are intertwined. Throw in mass and its basic physics. I like what you stated though i think it needs to be tweaked. It really depends on the person. Someone big will have a large amount of strength and could probably knock someone out due to his strength and sheer size but that wont help him in a fight against someone who is faster and more agile. On the flip though...someone small and agile might not have the sufficient strength to take down a much larger opponent. Of course this is an age old argument where technique comes into play as well. 

Basically what i want to say is that power and speed are equally important. Both can diffuse a situation and can save your life (as they have for me personally). I think as teachers we should concentrate on TEACHING the techniques and then SHOW them how power and speed are intermixed.

B


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 2, 2011)

LawDog said:


> HongKong,
> I don't know you but it is very obvious that you have had limited contact with the overall Kenpo community. Yes there are many "sports" type of Kenpo schools out there and there are also many Kenpo schools that "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk". However there is a very large group of kenpoists that can back up what they say. Out on the west coast there are the Kaju systems and the Ralph Castro systems along with many many others. On the east coast there are the SGM Cerios schools and the SGM Pesare's schools along with those who came from their lineage. The best way to personally prove out your opinon is to walk into one of the mentioned schools and call them a bunch of candy a _ _ _ _ and see what happens.
> One should not blanket an entire style because of a few contacts that one has made or what one reads in a forum.
> p.s. Kaju is not Kenpo but many of todays Kenpo systems are from their lineage.
> Nothing personal here just my opinon about a slap in the face we kenpoists received.



well said.



hongkongfooey said:


> No amount of Kenpo training will prepare you for an attack (sucker punch) that you don't see coming. I also stand by my statement that many Kenpo people can't fight. They can spout off terminology, talk about principles, and work techniques on a compliant partner when they know what the attack is. Take away the comfort of knowing how and where you are going to be attacked and the Kenpo goes right out the window.



Like lawdog said that is a slap in the face just a little. You cant judge us all by the actions of one.

at the same time i have meant people from other disciplines who fall into the same category. I usually just pity them and hope they never find out the hard way how little they know.


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## hongkongfooey (Sep 2, 2011)

LawDog said:


> HongKong,
> I don't know you but it is very obvious that you have had limited contact with the overall Kenpo community. Yes there are many "sports" type of Kenpo schools out there and there are also many Kenpo schools that "talk the talk" but fail to "walk the walk". However there is a very large group of kenpoists that can back up what they say. Out on the west coast there are the Kaju systems and the Ralph Castro systems along with many many others. On the east coast there are the SGM Cerios schools and the SGM Pesare's schools along with those who came from their lineage. The best way to personally prove out your opinon is to walk into one of the mentioned schools and call them a bunch of candy a _ _ _ _ and see what happens.
> One should not blanket an entire style because of a few contacts that one has made or what one reads in a forum.
> p.s. Kaju is not Kenpo but many of todays Kenpo systems are from their lineage.
> Nothing personal here just my opinon about a slap in the face we kenpoists received.




Law Dog,

You are correct. My experiences have been with mostly with the Parker's Kenpo community and a little of Tracy's, and I should have mentioned that. But my intention is not to paint the whole community with a wide brush that is why I said many, not most, or all Kenpo schools. To be honest, some in the Kenpo community need to be slapped in the face for the poor product they put out and the bad students they produce. One would think with all of the 10th degree grand masters in Kenpoland there would be a little quality control, but I guess not. Look at the bad kenpo videos on you tube and read the comments of Kenpo people reviewing them. For the most part the reviews are glowing and the performance is not any better in person.  

There are some excellent Kenpo people that can back up their claims, I am in agreement with that.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 2, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> I see what you are trying to point out...I think.
> 
> Speed and power are intertwined. Throw in mass and its basic physics. I like what you stated though i think it needs to be tweaked. It really depends on the person. Someone big will have a large amount of strength and could probably knock someone out due to his strength and sheer size but that wont help him in a fight against someone who is faster and more agile. On the flip though...someone small and agile might not have the sufficient strength to take down a much larger opponent. Of course this is an age old argument where technique comes into play as well.
> 
> ...


Youve interprited me Correctly, Sir!
Also, as regard to Size - I think its more Striking Area than Technique. Find the biggest guy there is, and if you can get his Throat, Knee, Shin, or Liver, itll still Hurt as much as anyone else.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 2, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Youve interprited me Correctly, Sir!
> Also, as regard to Size - I think its more Striking Area than Technique. Find the biggest guy there is, and if you can get his Throat, Knee, Shin, or Liver, itll still Hurt as much as anyone else.



Again we agree for the most part. Striking area is technique in regards to the trained vs untrained. Even someone with a limited training background will know to cover vital areas from immediate attack. That being said: where their training ends our training begins and openings tend to...well...open 

Ive been in a couple altercations and a couple with guys bigger than me (im 6'3" 250lbs as i stated before, so that is a large opponent for me to say he is bigger than me). Even with out training vital targets are still hard to reach since you have to account for their own height vs yours and their reach vs yours. It's not impossible but it is challenging. I have taken it upon myself to learn more about my disadvantages as a bigger person than learning how to use my size as an advantage. It has given me an edge when facing sparring partners with more experience when they set out to exploit my disadvantages for themselves. They are always shocked to find out that i know how to counter that.

Again this is where technique comes into play and where i stated the difference between teaching and showing. Vital areas are important to know as they can save your life when facing multiple opponents but it must always be remembered that there is a counter to ever technique and a counter to every counters. Thus is the circle that is martial arts. 

B

As and after thought I'm hoping the OP of this thread, the wise MJS, chimes in again as I am sure he will. Id like to hear his thoughts and also see if he can possibly create another thread out some of this off-topic garble that we have provided. It would be interesting to see the thoughts of some of the MT members on the differences between teaching and showing. 

Ill stop rambling on now...


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## KENPOJOE (Sep 6, 2011)

MJS said:


> While I agree that the art of Kenpo provides us with a vast array of tools, sometimes I can't help but think that there are too many tools in the box.  Students tend to focus on the 'fancy' things, such as the long drawn out techniques, such as Dance of Death.  Long tech, lots of moves, it looks cool, because you're beating the hell out of the person...lol.  Yet in reality, is that practical?
> 
> To each his own I suppose, but for me, I'm a believer in the KISS principle.  We're all getting to the same end point, only difference is that some get there a bit quicker.


H folks!
Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## punisher73 (Sep 6, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> H folks!
> Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
> But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
> I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
> ...



Going with the tool analogy.  A good carpenter will have "mastered" the tools he uses the most.  THEN when he has a job that requires a specialty tool you knows that it is time to use it and is able to use it because of the time spent on the main version of it.  

A large toolbox can be both a hinderance and a blessing depending on the student.  You can master your basics and keep those sharp and then start adding other tools to use, OR a student can just start sampling all of them and never really mastering any of them.

It isn't the system that is "too big" or has "too many techniques", it is the student that doesn't spend the time to dig in and master those and then slowly add more.  Mastery of the basics is enough to handle most situations that you will find yourself in.  So, if all you want in an MA is "most situations" then you won't need all those tools, BUT if you want to be able to handle the situations you may find yourself in that aren't as common then you will need those other tools.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 6, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> Going with the tool analogy.  A good carpenter will have "mastered" the tools he uses the most.  THEN when he has a job that requires a specialty tool you knows that it is time to use it and is able to use it because of the time spent on the main version of it.
> 
> A large toolbox can be both a hinderance and a blessing depending on the student.  You can master your basics and keep those sharp and then start adding other tools to use, OR a student can just start sampling all of them and never really mastering any of them.
> 
> It isn't the system that is "too big" or has "too many techniques", it is the student that doesn't spend the time to dig in and master those and then slowly add more.  Mastery of the basics is enough to handle most situations that you will find yourself in.  So, if all you want in an MA is "most situations" then you won't need all those tools, BUT if you want to be able to handle the situations you may find yourself in that aren't as common then you will need those other tools.



I like this.

Its something I use and strive to teach. I see a lot of the students coming up in the ranks and get awed at the wow factor of some of the stuff they get to learn. I try to point out that while that stuff is cool the basics are called that for a very good reason. they are the begging of what we learn and thus are tried and tested.

nice post punisher

B


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## LawDog (Sep 6, 2011)

I use the K.I.S.S. theory. My system covers standup, throws and ground. We use our techniques against empty hands, weapons and multi attacks. It is easy to apply the K.I.S.S. theory after a student is taught how to modify their techniques to fit most situations. Fewer techniques can then cover many situations. We need only a small tool box.
No one way is completly right and no one system is completley wrong, it is their percentage of right and wrong that counts.
Lawdog.


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## MJS (Sep 6, 2011)

KENPOJOE said:


> H folks!
> Regarding the "too many tools in the box" Plumbers don't carry just one wrench,Carpenters only one kind of nails and a hammer,"The proper tool for the proper job" the old adage goes...
> But if we limit ourselves and strip away the "unessentials" then we limit our ability to use the "Z" of the alphabet when the time an situation warrants it.
> I remember a west coast kenpoist telling me about his friend who was a nuclear physicist and literally a rocket scientist. He tried to get his friend in kenpo when he expressed an interest in martial arts. But after bringing him to a few kenpo classes, he budy wasn't interested, when pressed for an answer on why he wasn't interested. the friend told the kenpo guy"Look, I want to do something where I don't have to THINK about anything! I think all day long and the last thing I want is to study something where I have THINK about a whole new set of things!"...So, the Kenpo guy brought his friend to a well known shotokan dojo to watch a class and take and introductory session. The friend loved it! He stated "This is great! It's simple mindless training not rocket science!" Literally. Remember: the more derogatory version of KISS is: Keep It Simple Stupid!
> ...



That is true Joe....a plumber has multiple tools, same for a carpenter, etc.  But, the fact remains, when the poop is hitting the fan, all the fancy stuff goes out the window.  Dont believe me?  Let me use another example.  Arnis.  We have numerous blocks, disarms, locks, etc.  Funny though, how you never see any of that fancy stuff when it comes time to spar.  I've yet to see the nice controlled, textbook disarms that you usually see, during training sessions.  

My point was simply...yeah, in Kenpo we have alot of stuff at our disposal.  Yet the majority of the time, its the simple stuff that we tend to fall back on.  Using myself as another example...when I've done spontaneous reaction drills with my teacher, ie: him attacking hard and fast, me having no idea what he's going to do, its rare that I pull off a full textbook Kenpo tech, and personally, thats not my goal.  My goal is to defend myself in the most effective and simplist way possible.  No time for fancy stuff.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 7, 2011)

MJS said:


> That is true Joe....a plumber has multiple tools, same for a carpenter, etc.  But, the fact remains, when the poop is hitting the fan, all the fancy stuff goes out the window.  Dont believe me?  Let me use another example.  Arnis.  We have numerous blocks, disarms, locks, etc.  Funny though, how you never see any of that fancy stuff when it comes time to spar.  I've yet to see the nice controlled, textbook disarms that you usually see, during training sessions.
> 
> My point was simply...yeah, in Kenpo we have alot of stuff at our disposal.  Yet the majority of the time, its the simple stuff that we tend to fall back on.  Using myself as another example...when I've done spontaneous reaction drills with my teacher, ie: him attacking hard and fast, me having no idea what he's going to do, its rare that I pull off a full textbook Kenpo tech, and personally, thats not my goal.  My goal is to defend myself in the most effective and simplist way possible.  No time for fancy stuff.



would you say that the "fancy" stuff is just a training tool to help us tie our stuff together and to help us use combinations more effectively?

B


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> would you say that the "fancy" stuff is just a training tool to help us tie our stuff together and to help us use combinations more effectively?
> 
> B



Sure.  I'll use a lock flow for example.  In Arnis, we have a long lock flow series, in which we transition from one lock to the next.  Sure, this simply helps the student learn a bunch of locks, how they flow, etc, but the odds of flowing from one to the next to the next to the next, if you were lucky to apply one in the first place, is slim, IMHO.  Out of all those locks, I have a few 'bread and butter' moves that I train alot, feel comfortable with, and feel confident enough to apply.  In a nutshell, they're simple but effective.   So just like the techs, yeah, I do Dance of Death and all the other long, drawn out ones, but I also have my KISS techs, that I prefer.


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## KempoGuy06 (Sep 8, 2011)

MJS said:


> Sure.  I'll use a lock flow for example.  In Arnis, we have a long lock flow series, in which we transition from one lock to the next.  Sure, this simply helps the student learn a bunch of locks, how they flow, etc, but the odds of flowing from one to the next to the next to the next, if you were lucky to apply one in the first place, is slim, IMHO.  Out of all those locks, I have a few 'bread and butter' moves that I train alot, feel comfortable with, and feel confident enough to apply.  In a nutshell, they're simple but effective.   So just like the techs, yeah, I do Dance of Death and all the other long, drawn out ones, but I also have my KISS techs, that I prefer.



Dance of Death...now that sounds cool!!

I honestly never saw the point of the fancy stuff and as I have moved up in the ranks I have noticed that I question the validity of several things i have learned. The seem perfectly fine in class when running drills but some of them in my opinion seem like they may end up getting you hurt or killed because of the complexity of the techniques. 

B


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## MJS (Sep 10, 2011)

KempoGuy06 said:


> Dance of Death...now that sounds cool!!
> 
> I honestly never saw the point of the fancy stuff and as I have moved up in the ranks I have noticed that I question the validity of several things i have learned. The seem perfectly fine in class when running drills but some of them in my opinion seem like they may end up getting you hurt or killed because of the complexity of the techniques.
> 
> B



You should look up the description of the techique...its rather interesting.   Like I said, every art has its fancy stuff.  Do I do the fancy stuff?  Sure.  Those fancy techs are still taught as part of the art, but I always try to make clear that chances are, when your *** is on the line, the fancy stuff is best replaced with something more effective and practical.  Something long, drawn out and fancy will probably work best when you are in a situation that'll allow you to do those things, ie: when you have a compliant attacker.  But the drunk in a bar, who is pissed off at you because you were looking at his girl, probably isn't going to allow you to pull off something fancy.


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## LawDog (Jan 31, 2012)

Technique = The ability to control motion.


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## seasoned (Jan 31, 2012)

LawDog said:


> Technique = The ability to control motion.


Great input, Alan. Good to see you stopped by for a visit.


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## KenpoDave (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> While I agree that the art of Kenpo provides us with a vast array of tools, sometimes I can't help but think that there are too many tools in the box.  Students tend to focus on the 'fancy' things, such as the long drawn out techniques, such as Dance of Death.  Long tech, lots of moves, it looks cool, because you're beating the hell out of the person...lol.  Yet in reality, is that practical?
> 
> To each his own I suppose, but for me, I'm a believer in the KISS principle.  We're all getting to the same end point, only difference is that some get there a bit quicker.



There are a lot of tools in that box.  But it is a "system box," and each practitioner carries only the tools he knows how to use.


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