# skip Dan in Hapkido



## goingd (Aug 3, 2009)

Before I delve into the topic - I do not want this thread to turn into a slur of bashing, so try not to be specific with names unless you would like to mention yourself. Regardless, keep the criticism respectful.

I have known those who have been skipped in Hapkido. I feel that if one has the level of technique they are being skipped to AND the time and experience then there is nothing immediately wrong with it.
If one is not being asked by their master to test for a skip, then I feel that they should have a good reason for requesting such a test - i.e. promoted the art through their dojang.

^~^


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 3, 2009)

goingd said:


> I have known those who have been skipped in Hapkido. I feel that if one has the level of technique they are being skipped to AND the time and experience then there is nothing immediately wrong with it.


I agree.  Ultimately, if the person has the goods, then the rank is unimportant.  Rank is only of substantive meaning within the school where it was issued anyway.



goingd said:


> If one is not being asked by their master to test for a skip, then I feel that they should have a good reason for requesting such a test - i.e. promoted the art through their dojang.


Well, I can think of several legit reasons, not the least of which is students defrauded by rank in a previous school who simply wish to continue in their art without starting over again (an expensive proposition).

Daniel


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## Catalyst (Aug 3, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Ultimately, if the person has the goods, then the rank is unimportant.


 
I agree whole-heartedly with what Daniel is saying.

The point that is always brought up in our Dojang is that the founder of Hapkido: Dojunim Choi, Yong Sul could produce no certificates of rank, he could produce no scrolls (DRAJJ or otherwise), he could produce no records of who he studied with, when he studied with them, where he studied with them, for how long he studied with them, etc. The Oral history that has been passed to me is that all of Doju Choi's records had been stolen from a railway station while returning to Korea after World War 2.

Doju Choi's certification was his own abilities. He didn't have the papers to back it up, but he certainly had the abilities to back it up. 

Whether it was defending himself on the streets, in a brewery courtyard, or elsewhere, in real life scenarios, Doju Choi was the real deal.

I've been told that Korea right after World War 2 was a very tough and dangerous place. They were emerging from decades of Japanese Occupation and within 5 years of the end of World War 2, Korea would be embroiled in an extremely bloody civil war. It was in this setting that people could see that Doju Choi was an extremely accomplished Martial Artist.

Doju Choi didn't have the papers and the certificates and the ranks; but he had was what mattered most, the ability to defend himself.

The Founder of our Art couldn't prove rank to anybody, that is of course, unless you were foolish enough to attack him.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 3, 2009)

One other thing that needs to be considered is what the whole kyu/dan rank is anyway.

It was lifted from the Japanese game of Go. It was applied by Kano when he created Judo as a means of differentiating senior and junior students and of giving junior students something to work towards.

While the system certainly has its merits and uses, it is no substitute for skill, and now, rank is often awarded for payment of testing fees and class attendence without the accompanying skills.

Then of course there is the factor of dan ranks over fourth or fifth usually being more about how one has promoted the art and/or administrative or even honorary, rather than about the person's level of skill.

Let us also not forget that there is a hefty financial stake for the school and org in dan gradings and some students wind up defrauded by GM's who pocket the money and issue a dojo dan rather than one from the organization.

Certainly, I am not knocking those with a dan rank or a high dan rank. It is to be respected. But at the same time, we should look at dan rank for what it is rather than elevating it, as often happens in such discussions (for example, "he is a ninth dan, how dare you question him...." comments).

Daniel


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## Ty Hatfield (Aug 3, 2009)

> Certainly, I am not knocking those with a dan rank or a high dan rank. It is to be respected. But at the same time, we should look at dan rank for what it is rather than elevating it, as often happens in such discussions (for example, "he is a ninth dan, how dare you question him...." comments).
> 
> Daniel


 
I agree and again saying that really honor kind of thing. It is long years of work, then other people standing up and saying "your this rank". Then the paying of money is little hard for me at times since im getting into the not just a hundred of $ but a few hundreds of $ adding up to thousands of $.
I feel that what we do is good to. When someone is able to or is high rank but had not payed his fee's we still let him dress like he is that level and bow out with respect. I see alot of high ranking Dan Masters that join my Hapkido Federation and we alot of time rank them in at 3rd level as in name but they have to learn all the information to be completed in that level. It is all built on respect and even though im higher level in hapkido I will stand aside and make sure they are reconized and respected.


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## J Ellis (Aug 3, 2009)

I agree that an instructor and/or organization has the right to promote a practitioner to whatever rank he/they feel is appropriate based upon the combination of skill and time in study. I've seen it done, and I don't have an objection when it is done in a credible and honest manner.However, I see a difference between an instructor or organization choosing to do so, and an individual putting him/herself forward and requesting a higher rank. If the organization wishes to convene a board to evaluate practitioners that may have been misused in the past and are due a higher rank, so be it. But to step forward and assert I deserve to skip ranks and be promoted to a higher level is contrary to the spirit of humility that many martial arts hold as an ideal.Joel


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## Dusty (Aug 3, 2009)

the only problem i would forsee with dahn skipping is the material learned at each level. for the style i train in, lets say you were to go from 2nd dahn to 4th dahn as you could perform your known material very well. one of the problems is that the material learned at 3rd dahn as well as the time given to understand said material is that you may miss a large portion of what you are meant to understand. white belt to black belt gives you the basics. 2nd dahn teaches you techniques to put a finer spin on the beginner material, then third dahn teaches a different set of techniques to now become very proficient with your beginner material. That would be my only concern.
I hold high rank in tkd and middle rank in hkd and i would understand skipping rank in tkd as i dont find that much in the way of technical material beyond black belt. it seems to be more about time in rank, as opposed to hkd which is a much finer art. one slight adjustment can take a wrist throw from forced brute strength to effortless beauty!!
hope this makes sense.
Dusty, kj


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## mwd0818 (Aug 4, 2009)

To the point of skipping rank and missing material.

I have skipped Kyu (Gup) ranks before with students.  Generally, double promotions were given in the following cases:



Students who had learned similar arts previously and we were mainly just changing things over to the new system
Students who, for one reason or another, were unable to test for their next rank immediately.  Rather than limiting their progress, they continued to learn material in the next rank and had roughly half or more of the next rank's material
High quality students who don't need to extend the "basics" time and are immediately ready for the advanced classes.  In that case, I'll usually move them from White to Orange (skipping Yellow)
True, they might end up ranked slightly above their material, but if they are good enough to deserve the double promotion, then they are good enough to learn the extra material.

When you move into Dan rankings, I honestly think material is less important, but rather one's understanding and ability to move and share it.  I was bumped up quicker than I imagined recently because I was held back due to political reasons for years.  When asking my instructor about material, the response was basically:

"You move like it already.  You can learn the pattern, but the movement is what takes time.  You already have the movement."

So in that case, sure.

And this extends well outside of Hapkido and moves across all arts.  Rank matters most when you have more stripes than you have skill.


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## Ty Hatfield (Aug 5, 2009)

I look at the Dan System like this:

1st Dan you know the basics. This is the start.

2nd Dan you start having students and work on being a better teacher. I feel you can if look at it like this put letters together.

3rd Dan you start having Black Belts and start understanding the basics and could even make up your own understandings. I feel here it is as though you can put words together.

4th Dan you have a school or dojo and black belts are having black belts. You have deep understanding of Teq and movement. I feel here you can make sentences and Punctuation.

5th Dan you Have many school many black belts that have black belts. You teach in Many School and do Seminars. You are able to Write Books and understand deeper Teq and movements.

6th Dan is the same as 5th Dan it is just you are promoted though your Legacy.

Rest 7th though 9th are just positions promoted though your legacy and should only be made though Years and years of Training, Teaching, and Mentoring.

10th Dan is Position promoted though ones own Federation and there is only one that holds this position though his or her life.

Please feel free to elaborate and fix anthing you feel I missed.

Thanks,
Ty Hatfield


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## goingd (Aug 5, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Rank matters most when you have more stripes than you have skill.


God I love that statement...


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## goingd (Aug 5, 2009)

Here is an interesting side question: What do you think about individuals with no Hapkido rank being promoted directly to a dan rank after learning from things like seminars, private lessons, or those with previous Hapkido understanding, and no rank?


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## Ty Hatfield (Aug 6, 2009)

goingd said:


> Here is an interesting side question: What do you think about individuals with no Hapkido rank being promoted directly to a dan rank after learning from things like seminars, private lessons, or those with previous Hapkido understanding, and no rank?


 

Very good question my friend, I very interesting in our federation we have lets say 8th Dan that quits one federation an joins ours. I think I covered this a little but we do this since they are high level martial artists then we make room for them in our federation and give them a Honor Rank of 3rd Dan in Hapkido. Then we work with them helping them gain that rank as they learn everything and it becomes realistic 3rd Dan Level.

The way we look at Hapkido is that it covers every aspect of everything you do. So we look at the years in Martial Arts, the Styles they have Mastered, Then work with them on anything they are lacking.



Thanks,
Ty Hatfield


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2009)

goingd said:


> Here is an interesting side question: What do you think about individuals with no Hapkido rank being promoted directly to a dan rank after learning from things like seminars, private lessons, or those with previous Hapkido understanding, and no rank?


*Rank from seminars only:* This was common in the early days off Haedong Gumdo when they were trying to get it off the ground. 

Frequently, the individuals in question held some level of rank in another art or arts and were looking to add sword work to their TKD program. This is probably the case with people doing the same with hapkido. 

The major difference is that hapkido is already off the ground and does not benefit at all from this practice. Someone is making money, pure and simple, otherwise they would never offer rank after a seminar.

*Rank after private lessons:* If a student has been taking private lessons and holds no rank, but comes into my school and is head and shoulders above everyone else, go ahead and promote him.

*Rank with previous hapkido understanding:* This would be kind of like myself with taekwondo. I took taekwondo, karate, and TSD alternatively from about seven through about nineteen, then got into sport fencing. I started to get back into taekwondo, but then my first child was born and I had neither the money nor the time. I started back into taekwondo three years ago at the same place that I take (and now teach) kendo. I started as a white belt again, but moved fairly quickly, as I still had retained much of my previous training. But had I been given dan rank quickly, I would have raised an eyebrow. It would have been inappropriate. 

After taekwondo for awhile, I took up hapkido under the same instructor. His taekwondo class had a fair amount of hapkido blended into it. Thus, I had a pretty good handle on wristlocks and arm bars by the time I signed up for hapkido class and needless to say, I could punch and kick quite well. I still started as a white belt.

So in short, I feel that if you are starting a new art, or starting back after years away, start as a white belt, and the school should promote you according to your ability and progress.

Daniel


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 6, 2009)

I began Sin Moo Hapkido in Bray, Co Wicklow, Ireland in around May of 1998 and recieved a chodan in April of 1999. I seriously loved the art. I worked nights at the time and the guy I worked with would train with me while we were supposed to be working. We both shared our private classes and took five per week and trained three group classes per week. Our teacher was Massan Ghorbani who is a ninth Dan under DJN Ji Han Jae.
Massan began HKD in 1992 and during a seminar with DJN was promoted to fourth Dan, when before this he had no rank in Hapkido. Before this seminar, he was fourth Dan Kyokushinkai Karate, an Irish full contact kickboxing champion and all Iran knock down karate champion.
I don't see anything wrong with this. He is truly a great martial artist and has been loyal to DJN ever since. If anyone is travelling to Ireland, go to his dojang "Master's Temple" in Bray. It's just behind the dart station and you can get the Dart (train) from Dublin city right to the dojang. You won't be disappointed.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 6, 2009)

mwd0818 said:


> Rank matters most when you have more stripes than you have skill.


I would like to expand on this statement: it also matters most to beginners who know very little about martial arts, but want to justify a purchase decision and/or have a "my gm is better than your gm" mentality.  I think that this is more a matter of insecurity than anything else.  

It does offer credence to one's words: _he's ___th dan, so he *must* know what he's talking about! _is the mentality that those not in the know tend to have.  And there are plenty of people with rank willing to take advantage of that.

Daniel


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## mwd0818 (Aug 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would like to expand on this statement: it also matters most to beginners who know very little about martial arts, but want to justify a purchase decision and/or have a "my gm is better than your gm" mentality.  I think that this is more a matter of insecurity than anything else.
> 
> It does offer credence to one's words: _he's ___th dan, so he *must* know what he's talking about! _is the mentality that those not in the know tend to have.  And there are plenty of people with rank willing to take advantage of that.
> 
> Daniel



There is definitely a rippling effect in the water when you have someone with a lofty degree and no skills to back it up.  Unfortunately, newcomers are often the victims.

My general attitude is one of apathy towards those with over-inflated rank.  You might have 7 stripes or 10, but I'll be more than happy to show greater skill with half as many.  My only trepidation in completely not caring is when younger students who can't tell the real difference yet, look at the other guy and think, "Maybe your stances ARE supposed to look like that, cause that's the way this 10th degree is doing them!"

Unfortunate, just not sure how to fix it.


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 6, 2009)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I would like to expand on this statement: it also matters most to beginners who know very little about martial arts, but want to justify a purchase decision and/or have a "my gm is better than your gm" mentality. I think that this is more a matter of insecurity than anything else.
> 
> It does offer credence to one's words: _he's ___th dan, so he *must* know what he's talking about! _is the mentality that those not in the know tend to have. And there are plenty of people with rank willing to take advantage of that.
> 
> Daniel


QFT!! I find that this is more prevalant in the US than in Europe.The reason for this is contracts. Most studios in Britain/Ireland are amateur clubs. The instructor rents the spot for a nominal fee to practise two or three times per week and work a 'day job'. There are full time studios, but they are few and far between. Because of this the instructor just teaches and rank is not an issue because he doesn't need a certain number of students for his livelihood. Some instructors have lofty titles and are promoted to high degree prematurely, but usually this is for the sake of personal ego.

It's been almost ten years since I lived in Europe, so things might have changed a little, but due to conversations I have weekly, I don't think that things have changed much.

In the US it's all about business. The instructor usually needs a high rank to compete with other school owners who also have advanced rank. They draw students in with glossy adds and free intro classes and the new student just ses the guy with 8 stripes and naturally thinks he's better than the guy down the street with 3. The student signs a year long contract and then is locked in. If the student doesn't like what he's learning, he can leave but his bank account keeps getting debitted. Rank is all about business to a school owner. It may well be deserved, but it doesn't harm contract sales.

In an ideal world every potential student would be clued in and would ask for a verifiable history of the potential instructor. Training experience, teaching experience, and lineage should all be taken into account.


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