# Ussd



## Gufbal1982

*United Studios of Self Defense (USSD)* 
Quote:
Originally Posted by *Danjo* 
_Well, having talked to a number of instructors there, it's all about the money. They tested the celebrities right next to us in Lake Forrest, (Christian Slater and I went for Green belt at the same test session, and Steven Seagal's kids also trained there) and it seems that if there were a "Special Club" that they would be the one's who would have gotten it.

When I would go to the tests in Charlie's Lake Forrest HQ, I would work my butt off before testing to learn all of my material and be able to do it well. I would be standing next to people that forgot forms and combinations and some that even had to take a break and sit out part of the test. Well, at the end of the session, everyone got their tested for rank. When one of my fellow students that was testing at the same time asked one of the "Masters" what the deal was, the "Master" shrugged his shoulders and said, "It's a business." That's a quote I heard myself right from the mouth of Dennis B._



I wanted to give my 2 cents here.  United Studios is a business.  Is it fair to give some people special treatment?  No.  Will they do it though? yes. Why?  Because they want to keep their businesses running.  Remember, USSD says they never close a school, just get rid of the bad instructor that ran it.  I can honestly say that a few schools have closed, most recently being Seal Beach, CA.  Sounds like a well oiled business, right?


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## Danjo

Gufbal1982 said:


> *United Studios of Self Defense (USSD)*
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *Danjo*
> _Well, having talked to a number of instructors there, it's all about the money. They tested the celebrities right next to us in Lake Forrest, (Christian Slater and I went for Green belt at the same test session, and Steven Seagal's kids also trained there) and it seems that if there were a "Special Club" that they would be the one's who would have gotten it._
> 
> _When I would go to the tests in Charlie's Lake Forrest HQ, I would work my butt off before testing to learn all of my material and be able to do it well. I would be standing next to people that forgot forms and combinations and some that even had to take a break and sit out part of the test. Well, at the end of the session, everyone got their tested for rank. When one of my fellow students that was testing at the same time asked one of the "Masters" what the deal was, the "Master" shrugged his shoulders and said, "It's a business." That's a quote I heard myself right from the mouth of Dennis B._
> 
> 
> 
> I wanted to give my 2 cents here. United Studios is a business. Is it fair to give some people special treatment? No. Will they do it though? yes. Why? Because they want to keep their businesses running. Remember, USSD says they never close a school, just get rid of the bad instructor that ran it. I can honestly say that a few schools have closed, most recently being Seal Beach, CA. Sounds like a well oiled business, right?


 
Hey! We had a pretty good school at Seal Beach before you left! You let us train hard and spar hard. Unfortunately that wasn't the popular thing to do in the USSD. Remember the USSD bus and the visiting brown belts that we gave a beating to? That was just before you left.


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## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> Hey! We had a pretty good school at Seal Beach before you left! You let us train hard and spar hard. Unfortunately that wasn't the popular thing to do in the USSD. Remember the USSD bus and the visiting brown belts that we gave a beating to? That was just before you left.


 
Hahaha.  I remember that!  It was fun and funny at the same time.  I remember getting in trouble for it, but I didn't care.  It was sad that you guys beat the tar out of those so called "brown belts" and you were only green and blue belts at the time.


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## almost a ghost

Well, since this is a USSD thread... have fun


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## Danjo

Gufbal1982 said:


> Hahaha. I remember that! It was fun and funny at the same time. I remember getting in trouble for it, but I didn't care. It was sad that you guys beat the tar out of those so called "brown belts" and you were only green and blue belts at the time.


 
I believe we were called "Brawlers" and "Thugs" by the guy from HQ. Ah, the good old days.


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## JamesB

almost a ghost said:


> Well, since this is a USSD thread... have fun


 
:xtrmshock :erg:  

that's just wrong.


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## Danjo

almost a ghost said:


> Well, since this is a USSD thread... have fun


 
Those were painful to watch.


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## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> Those were painful to watch.


 

HAHAHA!!!  OMG, those were the commericials that they ran in Las Vegas.  I think I learned those techniques at some point...i'm seriously dying of laughter here.


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## Danjo

World's wimpiest child abductor clip was the funniest by far.


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## Gufbal1982

LOL.  Yes.  That one is really funny.  It's funny how they used the Vegas instructor's for the commercials where it says "come join a United Studios class today"


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## MeatWad2

Now, here's something for pure enjoyment:





 
I want the monkey to teach me!


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## Mariachi Joe

The monkey rocks


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## IRO-Bot

MeatWad2 said:


> Now, here's something for pure enjoyment:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I want the monkey to teach me!



That is just awesome.


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## Gufbal1982

IRO-Bot said:


> That is just awesome.


 
that Monkey was awesome!  Can he teach me?


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## Mariachi Joe

Man that chimp had some vertical


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## 14 Kempo

Mariachi Joe said:


> Man that chimp had some vertical


 
Yeah, but looked to be more TKD then kempo


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## 14 Kempo

... but wish I had kicks like that.


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## Mariachi Joe

May have been TKD but the chimp still rocks, wish I could jump that high


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## MeatWad2

I don't care what that monkey does...he looked RAD!


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## Josh Oakley

That  the coolest thing ever!


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## Iron Leopard

two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.  

Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself.  It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.

If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.

what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.


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## 14 Kempo

Iron Leopard said:


> two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.
> 
> Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself. It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.
> 
> If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.
> 
> what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.


 
I totally agree here. People are, and should be, judged on thier own abilities and capabilities ... within limits. There are schools that have persons that are autistic and/or otherwise mentally or physically handicapped in some way, should they not be allowed to study, train and rank within thier own abilities?


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## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> two cents about sub par people on high rank tests.
> 
> Please remember that in the martial arts you are only in competition with yourself. It's about "your" journey and "your" improvement.
> 
> If you keep that in mind you will be able to tolerate those with less skill than yourself.
> 
> what did those students look like before any training. If you compare those people to yourself or if instructors did that ...nobody but the most hardcore and self disciplined of us would ever make it to black belt and thousands would never benefit from the martial arts.


 
I disagree. While it's true that you are only in competition with yourself in terms of training and how long it takes you to achieve a certain level, there still ought to be minimum standards for rank. When someone is given a certain rank from an organization, they are in essence representing that organization. They are saying to the world, "This is what someone looks like at this rank in this organization." Now, grant you, like in any other area, there are going to be varying levels of skill within a certain rank. One can pass a test with a "C-" or with an "A+", but there should still be the concept of someone not measuring up to the minimum standard. 

I always understood the idea of competing only with oneself to mean that one was not in a race with others, nor does one have to look exactly like others to succeed. For instance, one person mught be large and powerful and another small and quick and flexible. They are clearly going to look different from each other at a test for the same rank. However, the overall combination of skill in either case should be one of expertise and skill. If one is testing for black belt and is large and strong, they should look like a large and strong expert with highly developed technique. If one is small and quick, then they should look like a small quick expert. But if one looks like a small quick purple belt, then they shouldn't be given a black belt (Or even tested for one) even if they have shown tremendous growth in their own ability level since they started training. Otherwise, ranks mean nothing within an organization. 

That's also why cross ranking is a very dubious practice. If someone from one organization gives high rank to someone from a different organization even though the recipient of the rank knows nothing of the art they are being ranked in, then it means that that rank is meaningless. It also begins to reflect badly on the rest of the people in the awarding organization who are highly ranked who actually earned that rank. For instance, if someone from Gojo Ryu awarded an ATF TKD guy high rank in Gogu Ryu even though the TKD guy never trained in Gogu RYU, I imagine that a lot of Legitimate Goju people would get quite angry about it. Why? Because rank is supposed to mean something, at least within an particular organization.


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## Iron Leopard

Danjo, I see what you are saying.  My main point would be that the c- student and the a+ student would represent a wide span. 

 The A+ being the instructor grade student the C- being the 55 year old lady with knee problems who can't do pushups or kick above her knees.  Her reaction time and combination speed will be very very slow compared to the a+ student.

The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol 

He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?


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## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> There are schools that have persons that are autistic and/or otherwise mentally or physically handicapped in some way, should they not be allowed to study, train and rank within thier own abilities?


 
NO.

While they are going to be more limited in terms of the range and variety of techinuqes that they can train in , they should have to achieve the same level of skill as anyone else in those techniques that they _CAN_ perform in order to get rank. If all they can do is block and punch, then they should do it _expertly_ to achieve an expert ranking. Everyone has limitations and one works with those and works around those on one's journey, but one does not throw out standards for those things that they _can_ do well just for the sake of getting rank. All that would do is create a fantasy and a make believe world where we are all pretending that a particular person is an expert when they are not.

Ask yourself this: Is it fair to keep those same people out of medical school and not give them doctorates and allow them to practice medicine? Should we not lower the standards to allow for those less qualified?  There's an old saying that goes, "What do you call the person that graduates at the bottom of his medical school?" Answer: "Doctor." Why?Because they GRADUATED. They were able to meet the minimum requirements to achieve this goal. We live in a far too politically correct world these days.


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## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> Danjo, I see what you are saying. My main point would be that the c- student and the a+ student would represent a wide span.
> 
> The A+ being the instructor grade student the C- being the 55 year old lady with knee problems who can't do pushups or kick above her knees. Her reaction time and combination speed will be very very slow compared to the a+ student.
> 
> The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol
> 
> He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?


 
Someone that can defend themselves to a fair degree in a confrontation is a green belt, not a black belt IMO. Rank should not be the goal; expertise should be the goal and rank should be the reflection of having met that goal.


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## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> The other example would be the guy who is 40ish can't remember his techniques fast and if you run him for 20 minutes he'll be winded. He can't take a hard body shot or he collapses and his forms instead of looking like crane or tiger..look more like yak and seal! lol
> 
> He will squeak by the tests including black belt and I feel that he should. he does enough right and could defend himself to some degree in a confrontation, but would he pass them in your dojo?


 No. I would not pass a 40 year old that got winded in 20 minutes, looked like crap, couldn't remember his forms and couldn't take a hard body shot to black belt.


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## Mariachi Joe

I got to agree with Dan on this, if you give a black belt to someone that's not at that level you might end up overinflating their ego and they could potential end up in a situation where they could be seriously injured.


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## Hand Sword

I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part. In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?


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## Mariachi Joe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMH0xpjvLg&mode=related&search=

Check this out


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## John Bishop

Hand Sword said:


> I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part.



Not everyone has the desire to be involved in the MMA world.  There are still plenty of physically capable and even gifted athletes that are interested in traditional martial arts.  



Hand Sword said:


> In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?



The martial arts has always, and will in the future continue to attract the weak who are tired of getting sand kicked in their face.  
But getting a black belt is just like anything else in life, the harder it is to get, the more value it will have.  
Not everyone who goes to college will get a degree, and not everyone who is involved in sports will ever get to the college, professional, or Olympic level.   For the most part, martial arts is a physical activity.  
I really dislike seeing the signs on schools saying "we are a black belt school".  If anyone can be a black belt, then what is the value of it?
Same thing with children black belts.   If a 10 or 12 year old can become a black belt, what is the acheivement when a 25 year old acheives the same rank?   Is someone seriously going to work their a-- off for 5 years to get to the same level as some 10 year old?    10 year old's play Little League and Pop Warner, 25 year old's don't.  
Anyway, that is just my feeling, which for the most part is shared by my peers in my system.   But it's up to the individual instructor or organization as to what standard they set.


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## 14 Kempo

Mariachi Joe said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuMH0xpjvLg&mode=related&search=
> 
> Check this out


 
Now that's funny ...


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## almost a ghost

Hand Sword said:


> I think personality types, and athletic abilities play a huge role in this area. Judging from what's been seen in the dojos for a while now, gone are the pitbulls, into the MMA world, for the most part. In their place are the less coordinated, less confident types. No matter how hard some train, they'll never "pop" as well as the "naturals". If they put in all of their effort, and given ability, why shouldn't they get promoted?



That's a very "1984" attitude towards the martial arts.


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## Hand Sword

John Bishop said:


> Not everyone has the desire to be involved in the MMA world. There are still plenty of physically capable and even gifted athletes that are interested in traditional martial arts.


 
I definitely agree. I was just saying it, for the most part. There seems to be way less of those people in the TMA's now, then there used to be. 





John Bishop said:


> The martial arts has always, and will in the future continue to attract the weak who are tired of getting sand kicked in their face.
> But getting a black belt is just like anything else in life, the harder it is to get, the more value it will have.
> Not everyone who goes to college will get a degree, and not everyone who is involved in sports will ever get to the college, professional, or Olympic level. For the most part, martial arts is a physical activity.
> I really dislike seeing the signs on schools saying "we are a black belt school". If anyone can be a black belt, then what is the value of it?
> Same thing with children black belts. If a 10 or 12 year old can become a black belt, what is the acheivement when a 25 year old acheives the same rank? Is someone seriously going to work their a-- off for 5 years to get to the same level as some 10 year old? 10 year old's play Little League and Pop Warner, 25 year old's don't.
> Anyway, that is just my feeling, which for the most part is shared by my peers in my system. But it's up to the individual instructor or organization as to what standard they set.


 
Agreed. My point was to the not moving crisply enough for some people here. I was just pointing out, again, for the most part, the athletic alphas of the species are not the most prevalent in the TMA's, and to penalize them for their physical abilities, or lack there of (in their eyes) was wrong. They are spending the time and effort, as we all did.


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## Hand Sword

almost a ghost said:


> That's a very "1984" attitude towards the martial arts.


 
Hey, truth is truth, no matter what time we're in. The MA's are more popular than ever, training is way different, and the cast of characters that take them up have changed along with the training overall.


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## Danjo

Hand Sword said:


> Agreed. My point was to the not moving crisply enough for some people here. I was just pointing out, again, for the most part, the athletic alphas of the species are not the most prevalent in the TMA's, and to penalize them for their physical abilities, or lack there of (in their eyes) was wrong. They are spending the time and effort, as we all did.


 
It might not be "Crisp" movements for everyone (though they should be as crisp as they can be). Once again, everyone has different strengths as well as weaknesses. The weaknesses need to be compensated for and the strengths enhanced by one's training. But expertise is still required for advancement. 

John Bishop (my instructor if you didn't already know) doesn't pretend that we all come out a a cookie cutter even though we are learning the same basic techniques in class (the core system). Some us us are big, others small. Some have long legs and arms, some are short. Some are older than others etc. We all learn the same techniques. We are all expected to gain a certain level of expertise in those techniques. However, the application will vary depending on one's own attributes. He'll tell a shorter person to get in close when fighting, a taller one to stay on the outside, a weaker one to remember to use eye-gouges etc. etc. It's all adjusted to one's own abilities while learning the core techniques and concepts. "Look how much longer his legs are than yours! Don't try to stay on the out side and fight him. Get in close where he can't get to you as easily!" are typical comments.

However, expertise is never sacrificed merely because a person has difficulty in doing it, or, worse yet, because one person has a harder time than someone else. Life is seldom fair. Some people are more intelligent than others, some have more grace and better reflexes. Some are stronger and some men get to keep their hair into old age (sigh) etc. etc. In other words, some will move up more quickly than others will despite the fact that the one may be working just as hard as the other. 

No one in the street, or bar or alley is going to take into consideration how long someone has been training or how much they have improved since they began learning the martial arts. You can either do it, or you can't. No service is done to someone by giving them a rank that they do not merit. Like Joe said, it's pretty much the opposite.


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## Hand Sword

I agree with all of that, as I already have said. My point was to not put the lesser talented people, who are busting their backsides, giving it their all, in that group, and denying them a certain rank. There is always some improvement with time and work, though not as good looking as what some people want or expect. If they know their stuff, they should advance in rank IMO.


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## Danjo

Hand Sword said:


> I agree with all of that, as I already have said. My point was to not put the lesser talented people, who are busting their backsides, giving it their all, in that group, and denying them a certain rank. There is always some improvement with time and work, though not as good looking as what some people want or expect. If they know their stuff, they should advance in rank IMO.


 
Well, like I was saying, there are going to be ranges, but there are still minimums in terms of ability levels. It's a cumulative score since everyone has different strengths etc., but the overall needs to hit the minimum in order to advance. The instructor should already be seeing all of this before puting a student up for advancement in the first place. You're telling the world that "This is what a black belt in my school looks like."


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## Hand Sword

I definetly agree with that!


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## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> Well, like I was saying, there are going to be ranges, but there are still minimums in terms of ability levels. It's a cumulative score since everyone has different strengths etc., but the overall needs to hit the minimum in order to advance. The instructor should already be seeing all of this before puting a student up for advancement in the first place. You're telling the world that "This is what a black belt in my school looks like."


 
I'll agree as well. There should be a minimum and an instructor should know his/her students capability going into a test.


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## Gufbal1982

14 Kempo said:


> I'll agree as well. There should be a minimum and an instructor should know his/her students capability going into a test.


 

I will say that I have always been an advocate of "a black belt is a black belt no matter what age that person is."  if a student can't hang with the other black belts, than that person is not ready.  I know for a fact that I shouldn't have gotten my ranks so young.  I know I was only originally promoted because I wanted to run a school and the only way it was happening was to rush me to a rank I wasn't ready for. If I were to take that test now though, I'd be ready and willing to do what I need to do.


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## 14 Kempo

Gufbal1982 said:


> I will say that I have always been an advocate of "a black belt is a black belt no matter what age that person is." if a student can't hang with the other black belts, than that person is not ready. I know for a fact that I shouldn't have gotten my ranks so young. I know I was only originally promoted because I wanted to run a school and the only way it was happening was to rush me to a rank I wasn't ready for. If I were to take that test now though, I'd be ready and willing to do what I need to do.


 
I don't believe I was rushed to any rank, however, one of the points I must bring to light is the fact that although I've gone through this twice to the same rank, I'm not the same now at 47 as I was at 30. My body doesn't do the things it once could and my endurance is not where it was. As far as lasting 20 minutes, my last name isn't Van Damme, so I would hate to think that any altercation I may get into would last even one tenth of that time.


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## Gufbal1982

14 Kempo said:


> I don't believe I was rushed to any rank, however, one of the points I must bring to light is the fact that although I've gone through this twice to the same rank, I'm not the same now at 47 as I was at 30. My body doesn't do the things it once could and my endurance is not where it was. As far as lasting 20 minutes, my last name isn't Van Damme, so I would hate to think that any altercation I may get into would last even one tenth of that time.


 

I am more or less referring to those that are now referred to as "junior black belts"


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## Gentle Fist

Gufbal1982 said:


> I will say that I have always been an advocate of "a black belt is a black belt no matter what age that person is." if a student can't hang with the other black belts, than that person is not ready. I know for a fact that I shouldn't have gotten my ranks so young. I know I was only originally promoted because I wanted to run a school and the only way it was happening was to rush me to a rank I wasn't ready for. If I were to take that test now though, I'd be ready and willing to do what I need to do.


 
Agreed..  That is why I love the ranking system in BJJ.  No kiddie black belts and it is quite easy to prove or disprove your rank.


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## Gufbal1982

fistlaw720 said:


> Agreed..  That is why I love the ranking system in BJJ.  No kiddie black belts and it is quite easy to prove or disprove your rank.



Agreed.  It's all about who gives it their all when you roll on the mat.  I love bjj too!


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## DavidCC

Our standard for black belt is notbased on age, but instead on the idea that a BB should be able to defend himself or herself against an adult.  So if some 13 year old were to get through the ranks and be physically developed and skilled enough, then so be it.  But I don't know any right now that could do that...

We did promote a 17yr old earlier this year, but he is 6'2 and headed to college... that's practically an adult.


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## Danjo

DavidCC said:


> Our standard for black belt is notbased on age, but instead on the idea that a BB should be able to defend himself or herself against an adult. So if some 13 year old were to get through the ranks and be physically developed and skilled enough, then so be it. But I don't know any right now that could do that...
> 
> We did promote a 17yr old earlier this year, but he is 6'2 and headed to college... that's practically an adult.


 
In Shotokan, 16 was the minimum age for black belt. Same with Judo back then. Other arts it's 18.

One of the myriad problems with promoting children to black belt is what I found at the High School I teach at. A 17 year old girl wore her TKD gi to school with her black belt for Halloween. When I asked her about her training, she said, 

"Oh I don't do this anymore. I got my black belt when I was 14 and I was so relieved because it meant that my parents would let me quit."

Gufball1982 can also tell you of a child at the USSD Shaolin Monk Show that tested for his brown belt. She asked him about it and the kid said, "Yep. Just two more tests to black belt then I can _quit_!"

It's essentially a form of Little League for these kids whose parents make them go and won't let them stop until they've "Finished". Pretty sad.


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## 14 Kempo

This is sad, but all too true ... we have two students that are 8 years old, they came to us as 2nd degree black belts in TKD. We also have one the is 13 that was 2nd in Tan Soo Do. This is not good in any sense of the imagination, maybe, just maybe, under special circumstances, the 13 year old as a BB, but 2nd?


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## John Bishop

Well, in Kajukenbo the tradition is that no one is promoted to black belt until they're 18.  A very few schools break from this tradition and promote 16 year olds to "student black", which is our probationary black.  For adults, they stay at student black for 1 year, and if they're still active, the rank becomes 1st degree.  The instructors who promote 16-17 year olds usually hold them at student black until they turn 18.
No black belts are added to the official Kajukenbo Family Tree until they are 18.  
I enforce the 18 year old rule, and all the students and parents know it up from day 1.  
In fact the majority of the parents have been very supportive of this policy, and appriciate that we are not a belt factory, and wearing the black belt is a adult responsibility.  It's sort of laughable to see a kid who's still young enough to have his mommy spank him, running around with a black belt on.


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## DavidCC

John Bishop said:


> It's sort of laughable to see a kid who's still young enough to have his mommy spank him, running around with a black belt on.



ROFLMAO!!


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## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> In Shotokan, 16 was the minimum age for black belt. Same with Judo back then. Other arts it's 18.
> 
> One of the myriad problems with promoting children to black belt is what I found at the High School I teach at. A 17 year old girl wore her TKD gi to school with her black belt for Halloween. When I asked her about her training, she said,
> 
> "Oh I don't do this anymore. I got my black belt when I was 14 and I was so relieved because it meant that my parents would let me quit."
> 
> Gufball1982 can also tell you of a child at the USSD Shaolin Monk Show that tested for his brown belt. She asked him about it and the kid said, "Yep. Just two more tests to black belt then I can _quit_!"
> 
> It's essentially a form of Little League for these kids whose parents make them go and won't let them stop until they've "Finished". Pretty sad.


 

Was that brat my student?  I remember that kid and I was pretty ticked that he said that.  It is a form of little league for these kids...even worse for some.  It's daycare...


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## shaolin ninja 4

Gufbal1982 said:


> Was that brat my student?  I remember that kid and I was pretty ticked that he said that.  It is a form of little league for these kids...even worse for some.  It's daycare...



Haha.


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## Iron Leopard

I believe it should be 16 for black belt for a million reasons.  One of those being that you don't want a child to think that he can stand face to face with a grown adult and win the fight. 

Kids in Martial arts is a funny thing.  Of course you want the child to be motivated and focused and get the full benifit. Is not beneficial for the child who doesn't want to be there to be there though? lol 

Children can still learn discipline, respect, manners and self defense if they are forced to attend class so it's a tough call.


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## Mariachi Joe

helps keep the kids out of trouble too


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## Carol

Probationary black for a year before 1st degree becomes official?  

Hmm.....interesting.   I kind of like the idea.


----------



## Danjo

Gufbal1982 said:


> Was that brat my student? I remember that kid and I was pretty ticked that he said that. It is a form of little league for these kids...even worse for some. It's daycare...


 
I think you told me that he used to be your student and then he went to train under your then instructor Mr.Turner.


----------



## Danjo

Carol Kaur said:


> Probationary black for a year before 1st degree becomes official?
> 
> Hmm.....interesting. I kind of like the idea.


 
Sort of a motivator to keep training after you've reached black belt by seeing it as a bench mark in your training rather than a stopping point.


----------



## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> I believe it should be 16 for black belt for a million reasons. One of those being that you don't want a child to think that he can stand face to face with a grown adult and win the fight.
> 
> Kids in Martial arts is a funny thing. Of course you want the child to be motivated and focused and get the full benifit. Is not beneficial for the child who doesn't want to be there to be there though? lol
> 
> Children can still learn discipline, respect, manners and self defense if they are forced to attend class so it's a tough call.


 
16 used to be older than it is now. Adolesence has been extended a great deal from what it used to be. One used to be able to drop out of school and join the military at 16 and my general memory of what a sixteen year-old was back in the 60's and 70's was a more mature (or at least hardend by the realities of life) person in general.

As society has changed into a PC world, the general maturity level has dropped along with it.  Everyone thinks that they can protect kids these days also. Cerfews, bicycle helmets, elbow and knee pads for skateboards etc. Very few Jungle Gyms left on school grounds, etc. etc. 

No longer are kids seeking to be adults as early as possible, but rather the adults are seeking to remain kids as long as they can. TV shows make reaching adulthood unattractive to kids. In the 50's-70's kids shows featured kids who were funny and usually getting into trouble through their childlike ineptitude and at the end, the adults would step in and solve the problems the kids had so humorously gotten themselves into. Now, the sitcoms show the kids as the hip, cool intelligent ones and the adults as out of it, nerdish boors whom the kids have to tolerate while rolling their eyes at how lame the adults are. I could rant for longer, but you get my drift. 30 years ago, giving a 16 year old a black belt didn't seem wrong. I know very few 16 year-olds now (or even 18 year olds for the most part) that I think are mature enough to merit one.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> I think you told me that he used to be your student and then he went to train under your then instructor Mr.Turner.


 

Yup.  That's the brat.  I will not name any names though.  He quit from there too...didn't make it to black belt with Mr. Turner.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Danjo said:


> Sort of a motivator to keep training after you've reached black belt by seeing it as a bench mark in your training rather than a stopping point.


 
USSD is doing that junior black belt thing now...which is OK, but now instructors are rushing 12 and 13 year olds to be Junior Black Belts.  The upside is that they can't test again until they are 18 and then their skill level will determine if it's a test for 2nd degree or 1st degree.


----------



## Iron Leopard

yes ussd is giving jr black belts and then recertifiying at 18 sometimes 16 in some cases. I think it's a good idea.  I agree with danjo that alot of kids at 16 now are less mature but.. if you've been studying for 4-5 years and are showing the skill and can spar and work your techniques well on adults ..then you should get the black belt.


----------



## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> yes ussd is giving jr black belts and then recertifiying at 18 sometimes 16 in some cases. I think it's a good idea. I agree with danjo that alot of kids at 16 now are less mature but.. if you've been studying for 4-5 years and are showing the skill and can spar and work your techniques well on adults ..then you should get the black belt.


 
Much of it depends on what you want a black belt to mean in your organization and thus what you want it to say to the rest of the world at large. If you want a black belt to mean a 21 year-old that's trained for a few years, then give them out. But don't expect the rest of the MA world to think very much of you if you say "I'm a black belt from so-and-so". If someone tells me they're a black belt In BJJ, Kyokushin, or Kajukenbo, then I'm impressed because I know what they had to go through to get there. If they tell me they're a black belt from some of these other places that hand out rank to kids, my opinion will be a bit different.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> yes ussd is giving jr black belts and then recertifiying at 18 sometimes 16 in some cases. I think it's a good idea. I agree with danjo that alot of kids at 16 now are less mature but.. if you've been studying for 4-5 years and are showing the skill and can spar and work your techniques well on adults ..then you should get the black belt.


 

Also, remember that with the rank there should be a level of maturity.  If you are 16 and act like you're 13, but you have skill, I'll still make you wait.  Why?  Because being a black belt has some kind of respect attached with it.  USSD, as well as successful businesses, have a saying "act as if."  If you cannot be mature and "act as if" you are a black belt before you get the rank, then you're not ready.  Also, I liked what my FV instructor did to me and a few others that were under 16.  We were put on probation for a year to prove we were ready for the rank.  If you weren't, then you were demoted back to brown and had to wait for the next BB test that you were ready for.  Didn't have the demotion experience, but I would emphasize that too if I have a school again.


----------



## Danjo

Danjo said:


> Much of it depends on what you want a black belt to mean in your organization and thus what you want it to say to the rest of the world at large. If you want a black belt to mean a 12 year-old that's trained for a few years, then give them out. But don't expect the rest of the MA world to think very much of you if you say "I'm a black belt from so-and-so". If someone tells me they're a black belt In BJJ, Kyokushin, or Kajukenbo, then I'm impressed because I know what they had to go through to get there. If they tell me they're a black belt from some of these other places that hand out rank to kids, my opinion will be a bit different.


 
Here's the corrected quote. Amazing what a transposed couple of numbers can do eh?


----------



## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> Much of it depends on what you want a black belt to mean in your organization and thus what you want it to say to the rest of the world at large. If you want a black belt to mean a 12 year-old that's trained for a few years, then give them out. But don't expect the rest of the MA world to think very much of you if you say "I'm a black belt from so-and-so". If someone tells me they're a black belt In BJJ, Kyokushin, or Kajukenbo, then I'm impressed because I know what they had to go through to get there. If they tell me they're a black belt from some of these other places that hand out rank to kids, my opinion will be a bit different.
> 
> Here's the corrected quote. Amazing what a transposed couple of numbers can do eh?


 
Yeah, that made a bit of difference ... but I think most of us knew what you meant previously.


----------



## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> Yeah, that made a bit of difference ... but I think most of us knew what you meant previously.


 
Another thing to think of. If someone gives a kids a black belt, that's a lot of pressure to put on a kid. They are being set up for ridicule and scoffing. A child might think that they really want a black belt, but is it really what's best for them? If you take a baby into a bait shop, they are going to want to grab all the pretty shiny thing they see. Unfortunately, those things have hooks in them that they haven't been taught how to handle properly. It takes an adult to say, "No. Not yet." Sure, the kid might get upset, but whatever. He's a kid.


----------



## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> Another thing to think of. If someone gives a kids a black belt, that's a lot of pressure to put on a kid. They are being set up for ridicule and scoffing. A child might think that they really want a black belt, but is it really what's best for them? If you take a baby into a bait shop, they are going to want to grab all the pretty shiny thing they see. Unfortunately, those things have hooks in them that they haven't been taught how to handle properly. It takes an adult to say, "No. Not yet." Sure, the kid might get upset, but whatever. He's a kid.


 
OK, for the sake of discussion ... hypothetically speaking, what if the person is 16 years old, 6'1" 220#, mature, athletic and can stand up to any adult in your school? Should he too be held back? Same rules? or are there exceptions?


----------



## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> OK, for the sake of discussion ... hypothetically speaking, what if the person is 16 years old, 6'1" 220#, mature, athletic and can stand up to any adult in your school? Should he too be held back? Same rules? or are there exceptions?


 
In our school it's 18 years old period. No exceptions.

In other schools, 16 is the age. No problem with that either. More a matter of preference. I assume that the instructor would be going by more than age when awarding the black belt.

Get any younger than that, and it begins to get silly IMO. Look, we have age requirements for a lot of things: 16 to get a driver's license; 18 to vote; 21 to drink; 25 to be elected to the house of representatives, 30 to be elected to the Senate, 35 to be president, 55 to get the Carl's Jr. Senior discount. etc. etc. I don't think we "Owe" children black belts. I don't think it's "holding them back" anymore than it's holding back a 14 year old from getting a driver's license or a 19 years old from being allowed to buy wiskey in a bar.


----------



## Hand Sword

Amen to that!


----------



## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> In our school it's 18 years old period. No exceptions.
> 
> In other schools, 16 is the age. No problem with that either. More a matter of preference. I assume that the instructor would be going by more than age when awarding the black belt.
> 
> Get any younger than that, and it begins to get silly IMO. Look, we have age requirements for a lot of things: 16 to get a driver's license; 18 to vote; 21 to drink; 25 to be elected to the house of representatives, 30 to be elected to the Senate, 35 to be president, 55 to get the Carl's Jr. Senior discount. etc. etc. I don't think we "Owe" children black belts. I don't think it's "holding them back" anymore than it's holding back a 14 year old from getting a driver's license or a 19 years old from being allowed to buy wiskey in a bar.


 
Agreed, well stated. Really sad to see some of the people out there holding certain ranks, even those prior to BB ... embarrasses me actually. I just have to realize that I'm not the one handing them out and that I represent the rank I wear well. Maybe some day I'll have the power and can make the rules ... LOL


----------



## MeatWad2

Iron Leopard said:


> yes ussd is giving jr black belts and then recertifiying at 18 sometimes 16 in some cases. I think it's a good idea.  I agree with danjo that alot of kids at 16 now are less mature but.. if you've been studying for 4-5 years and are showing the skill and can spar and work your techniques well on adults ..then you should get the black belt.



How much does ussd charge for black belt test's?

Does Grand Master Mattera run it or his underlings?


----------



## Gufbal1982

MeatWad2 said:


> How much does ussd charge for black belt test's?
> 
> Does Grand Master Mattera run it or his underlings?


 
Um, back to the Ferrari payment as far as test fees go for that rank.


----------



## Gufbal1982

as far as who runs the test, from what I remember, Master Mattera was only at my test for maybe 10 to 15 minutes tops.  Random district managers ran the test.


----------



## Iron Leopard

I believe that the black belt and higher tests are all $400 now for USSD I'm not sure what Vallari studios are charging now. was $200?  I know that one of my friends payed $200! lol  


I must say that the masters at the black belt tests I was at at both valarri and USSD were incredibly talented and able to run the tests well.

I'm still going to have to say that hate em or love em the FV and USSD Masters are second to none.


----------



## kosho

I like kata....so it is hard to pick one.  Ok tired so spelling maybe a issue.

in SKK  I like  hun suki tiger 
In Kosho  I like Neko Buto Shodan 
In shotokan I like bassi Di

kosho


----------



## kosho

LOL  sorry was reading a different post  and  added it here. LOL
 Kosho


----------



## Danjo

Iron Leopard said:


> I'm still going to have to say that hate em or love em the FV and USSD Masters are second to none.


 
You need to get out more bro.


----------



## Hand Sword

I would agree with that. However, in fairness, business practices aside, I remember them from back in the day, and as martial artists, let's just say that they weren't lacking.


----------



## Iron Leopard

AMen to that..hand sword...have any of you guys been hit by masters or grand masters or professors for that matter??   and had your body hit so fast and manipulated so well that really you were unable to respond or stop the technique from working if you had tried? 

That is an awe inspiring moment! very motivating! Must train harder...Must train harder...Must train harder!


----------



## 14 Kempo

Iron Leopard said:


> AMen to that..hand sword...have any of you guys been hit by masters or grand masters or professors for that matter?? and had your body hit so fast and manipulated so well that really you were unable to respond or stop the technique from working if you had tried?
> 
> That is an awe inspiring moment! very motivating! Must train harder...Must train harder...Must train harder!


 
I have and I'll agree, it's eye opening. I am one that also notices body positioning. During seminars, even if the training is focussed on something else, watch the body positioning. It seems they are always in position without thought, it's natural. Proof to the hours upon hours of training. I was introduced to checking back in the FV days. It's not something that is readily taught thus far in my USSD training, but will be discussed if asked about in the proper arena. Problem seems to be that not all instructors have enough knowledge to even know about this themselves.


----------



## Danjo

14 Kempo said:


> I was introduced to checking back in the FV days. It's not something that is readily taught thus far in my USSD training, but will be discussed if asked about in the proper arena. Problem seems to be that not all instructors have enough knowledge to even know about this themselves.


 
Why is this do you suppose? Why are the instructors not taught this stuff? Could be a couple of things IMO. One: It's not commercially viable to teach to that level and so the only ones that have that info and training are the old guard. Or Two: There is intentionally information held back so that the Masters look good when they demo on the students. that is, they teach the basic curriculum to the general public and keep other more effective training to themselves so that they can keep one up on those below them. this would include the instructors at the various studios, many of whom were not even trained in SKK before opening a school (Cynthia Rothrock for example).


----------



## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> Why is this do you suppose? Why are the instructors not taught this stuff? Could be a couple of things IMO. One: It's not commercially viable to teach to that level and so the only ones that have that info and training are the old guard. Or Two: There is intentionally information held back so that the Masters look good when they demo on the students. that is, they teach the basic curriculum to the general public and keep other more effective training to themselves so that they can keep one up on those below them. this would include the instructors at the various studios, many of whom were not even trained in SKK before opening a school (Cynthia Rothrock for example).


 
I see it with the Masters, I see it with some of the instructors. Number one may be true, it is thought to be more advanced training. Checking knees and such can cause injury very easily. Lower ranks do not always have the control to practice such techniques. I don't agree with number two in its entirety, although I think holding back the information may be intentional, I don't think it is to make the masters look better. Most students, including some high ranks, in my studio, never noticed the positioning. I did, cause I look for that. Not only because of my prior training, but because I am all about what and how things work in a real environment. I do think part of it is the actual rank of some of the instructors (leave it at that, another discussion has already taken place about that).

Positional checking is used to keep opponents continually off balance and, as the term goes, in check. By positioning yourself properly, you reduce the chance of taking damage. Again, as stated in a previous post, I believe it is all important in training to work with someone of skill to try and counter anything you are trying to accomplish. Doing techniques against a non-reacting opponent, while in the beginning is probably a necessity, is not a way to perfect anything. As we all know, an opponent is not going to just stand still.


----------



## MeatWad2

Danjo said:


> Why is this do you suppose? Why are the instructors not taught this stuff? Could be a couple of things IMO. One: It's not commercially viable to teach to that level and so the only ones that have that info and training are the old guard. Or Two: There is intentionally information held back so that the Masters look good when they demo on the students. that is, they teach the basic curriculum to the general public and keep other more effective training to themselves so that they can keep one up on those below them. this would include the instructors at the various studios, many of whom were not even trained in SKK before opening a school (Cynthia Rothrock for example).




Most karate masters do that! They are selfish bastards.


----------



## John Bishop

If we can't keep the comments somewhat positive, let's at least try and contribute something useful to the discussion.


----------



## Danjo

deleted duplicate post


----------



## Danjo

MeatWad2 said:


> Most karate masters do that!


 
Well that's actually been the opposite of my experience. When I look at high ranking martial artists (Shotokan, BJJ, Kajukenbo) performing their technique on me, they are _definitely_ superior in their execution of it. However, they aren't using stuff that we haven't been taught (usually it's the same exact technique), they just do it _better_. More smoothly, powerfully and precisely and with less effort. I never get the feeling that "Hey, they're using body-checking that they haven't taught us." But rather, "Wow! So this is how this is supposed to look when it's done right!" They don't need to rely on gimmicks like holding back info to make themselves look good, nor have they stopped teaching effective stuff that they still employ for the sake of commercialism.


----------



## Iron Leopard

I agree with Danjo.  The difference in masters insn't that they have different techniques...of course they will have some advanced techniques that I don't have.. I don't know everything. but..usually its the same stuff I have they just have better stances, postion, power, targeting, speed, etc!  It just realy inspires me to practice the basic stuff I already have more!


----------



## Hand Sword

Well, remembering from the past, Villari's way was to introduce everyone to the martial arts. This meant simplifying the material, or, basically, spoonfeeding the students. They bring you along slowly, keeping it simple, and as you show competency, you get the advanced pieces added to the puzzle. Now, from a business stand point, it's solid ideology. Teachers in schools move along slowly, teaching in a frustrating manner to faster students, that get it. Or, think of it as being as fast as your weakest runner.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Everyone should go train at another dojo before they say their art is the best.
If you dont know whats out there how do you know yours is the best?


----------



## 14 Kempo

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Everyone should go train at another dojo before they say their art is the best.
> If you dont know whats out there how do you know yours is the best?


 
Wasn't it the Gracies that said they had the end all style in MA with thier Jujitsu system. That was true years ago in the UFC, but not so today. IMO, no one art is the best in and of itself. Each art has its advantages and disadvantages. I believe one of the good things about the MMA becoming so popular is that it brought to the forefront the fact that people need knowledge in many, many fighting styles. And in that vein any one style is better than no style, whether that style be boxing, TKD, Kempo, wrestling, or any other art ... they all have thier positives and negatives; ever hear of yin and yang?


----------



## Iron Leopard

Well that's one reason I really like Kempo ..it does incorporate the ground fighting and some kung fu and karate and the flashy kicks of other arts if that's what you want and the womens self defense and.....it has everything! well alot of stuff anyway! lol


----------



## Gufbal1982

Iron Leopard said:


> Well that's one reason I really like Kempo ..it does incorporate the ground fighting and some kung fu and karate and the flashy kicks of other arts if that's what you want and the womens self defense and.....it has everything! well alot of stuff anyway! lol


 
Which location teaches groundfighting?  I know I was never taught groundfighting...


----------



## Hand Sword

Really? I remember it being taught back in the day, from my very beginning. Last I was in classes, years back, they would still cover it. Everyone seemed to have it too, up in the north east.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> Really? I remember it being taught back in the day, from my very beginning. Last I was in classes, years back, they would still cover it. Everyone seemed to have it too, up in the north east.


 
I'm on the west...from what I remember, they banned it being taught in the dojo's because of injuries.


----------



## Hand Sword

When did you start learning? The watering down came ???? mid 80's, in total?? Then again, I came up in the FVSSD, back in the day.


----------



## Matt

Hand Sword said:


> When did you start learning? The watering down came ???? mid 80's, in total?? Then again, I came up in the FVSSD, back in the day.



In CT, they didn't touch on it too much. When I became involved in MSDC, they did more, especially Shihan Bryant who did some neiwaza drills at seminars. Things got really more 'ground' aware at my current school when 1.) one of our black belts went to Brazil to study with the Gracies, and 2.) Professor Ferreira exposed us to some Aiki-jutsu  through his studies, and we spent a while on the ground (I think there are some pictures at http://www.dpkempo.com of RevIV enjoying the experience). 

I still need to work on that range. 

Matt


----------



## Hand Sword

This sounds like recent times. When did you start that with SKK?


----------



## Matt

Hand Sword said:


> This sounds like recent times. When did you start that with SKK?



I started under Scott Packard (in FVSSD) in 1990. His school was one of the ones that left in 1992 or 1993 with Steve Demasco when he left Villari's to join USSD as head of East Coast operations. While in college at UCONN, I also studied at the Willimantic FVSSD for private lessons, but somewhat sporadically. When I moved to Cape Cod, I joined a school that was with Masters Self Defense Centers, which was formed from schools that left Villari's in 1992 or so. In 2003, the school I am affiliated with went 'independent', and then joined the Kempo Jutsu Kai. Thankfully, I had been studying under Professor Ferreira of the Kempo Jutsu Kai since 2001. 

But enough about me...

Matt


----------



## Hand Sword

That's why. You came on board after the watering down occurred, and everyone went "business" first, art second.


----------



## Matt

Hand Sword said:


> That's why. You came on board after the watering down occurred, and everyone went "business" first, art second.



Funny, I didn't think the watering down happened until a smidge later. I had my ribs broken during class - we played pretty hard - in Ct. When I came back for a visit (probably during '97 or '98) his blackbelts complained that I 'hit too hard' during sparring. That's when I felt 'a change'. 

Matt


----------



## BigKiai

Gufbal1982 said:


> I'm on the west...from what I remember, they banned it being taught in the dojo's because of injuries.


 
We've been covering ground fighting.


----------



## Hand Sword

There was fragments still playing hard, As I said, in terms of the bigger picture, commercialism was in full bloom. If you went with Masters (Mr. Bagley?) I can see the hard core way. He was always very serious. Funny thing about him, your instructors, at least for me, were always first name, even with each other. However, Master Bagley was always Master Bagley. This wasn';t because he demanded it, just because of his persona and energy he threw out.


----------



## shaolin ninja 4

Hand Sword said:


> There was fragments still playing hard, As I said, in terms of the bigger picture, commercialism was in full bloom. If you went with Masters (Mr. Bagley?) I can see the hard core way. He was always very serious. Funny thing about him, your instructors, at least for me, were always first name, even with each other. However, Master Bagley was always Master Bagley. This wasn';t because he demanded it, just because of his persona and energy he threw out.


 
How long did you train with master bagley?
Is he still practicing law* ?  Does he teach anymore?*


----------



## LawDog

During the very early 70's the USSD training included, very basic Judo, ground free fighting, (not gound grappeling), Kenpo Karate and very basic Jujitsu. These early classes stressed heavy basic's, then combinations, guns, club and knife techniques and forms. Heavy sparring was done at the end of every class,(not the tourny or sport type either).


----------



## MeatWad2

LawDog said:


> During the very early 70's the USSD training included, very basic Judo, ground free fighting, (not gound grappeling), Kenpo Karate and very basic Jujitsu. These early classes stressed heavy basic's, then combinations, guns, club and knife techniques and forms. Heavy sparring was done at the end of every class,(not the tourny or sport type either).



Can you tell us more good stories about the old days?

I saw on ebay old villari tournament's videos for sale.


----------



## Gufbal1982

Hand Sword said:


> When did you start learning? The watering down came ???? mid 80's, in total?? Then again, I came up in the FVSSD, back in the day.


 
 I started in 87, when the break up happened out in California.  I was also 5 when I started...


----------



## LawDog

MeatWad2,
Sparring back in the early 70's USSD is very different from today. There was very little saftey equipment around in those days. Sparring was allways controlled contact. What is meant by controlled contact is that you must, with speed and focus, be within the power curve of any strike/kick when you come into contact with your opponent but still maintain enough control of your move so that you could stop the impact before it could cause any damage to your class mate.


----------



## Danjo

LawDog said:


> MeatWad2,
> Sparring back in the early 70's USSD is very different from today. There was very little saftey equipment around in those days. Sparring was allways controlled contact. What is meant by controlled contact is that you must, with speed and focus, be within the power curve of any strike/kick when you come into contact with your opponent but still maintain enough control of your move so that you could stop the impact before it could cause any damage to your class mate.


 
It was the same in Shotokan in the late 70's. All we had were cups. Probably most karate classes had to do it that way.


----------



## MeatWad2

Cool thanks sir.
More stories please?


----------



## Danjo

MeatWad2 said:


> Cool thanks sir.
> More stories please?


 
Sure. I think htat people tended to be more technically precise back then on agverage. The reason is that before the widespread use of equipment, ther was less banging away and more control of one's technique. Not only were you expected to focus the blow just short of the bodily target, but when you _did_ make contact, you wanted it to be good. You couldn't just get by with slamming into someone with a side kick and repeatedly bash them in the headgear or torso etc. like you can now.People used to stalk each other more and not just rush in as much as they do now a days. Equipment has encouraged a more Kickboxing style of fighting. Styles tend to get muted and everyone starts looking the same after a while. A kickboxer can attain proficiency in as little as six months of training. To master a more technical and precise art that strikes at vital targets and makes use of technique rather than brute force takes much longer. Now, having said that, I do think that there is a usefulness to having equipment as well. Power and the ability to take a good punch or kick that is really being aimed at you is very good training. In the Kenpo, Kempo and related arts, there is a large amount of equipment-free training while practicing techniques such as tricks, counters combinations etc. as well as sparring with gear on. Anyways, this is just a long way of saying tht there were virtues as well as pitfalls to the pre-gear days of the martial arts.


----------



## Iron Leopard

well said danjo.  You have to train with and without equipment. I always encourage male students to wear cups at all times though.  Although I've had instructors that distain the use of cups because it toughens you up when you get kicked without one.


----------



## Hand Sword

:rofl:

Don't you mean "soften them up". Then again, I can see your point--lol. Getting kicked there, hard, would tighten up the body so hard, causing our deep, masculine voices to become high tennar.


----------



## Iron Leopard

lol now I didn't say I agreed with it!


----------



## LawDog

Will re-write later


----------



## Mariachi Joe

Hand Sword said:


> :rofl:
> 
> Don't you mean "soften them up". Then again, I can see your point--lol. Getting kicked there, hard, would tighten up the body so hard, causing our deep, masculine voices to become high tennar.


 

Ha ha, that was good.:rofl:


----------



## 14 Kempo

Danjo said:


> Sure. I think htat people tended to be more technically precise back then on agverage. The reason is that before the widespread use of equipment, ther was less banging away and more control of one's technique. Not only were you expected to focus the blow just short of the bodily target, but when you _did_ make contact, you wanted it to be good. You couldn't just get by with slamming into someone with a side kick and repeatedly bash them in the headgear or torso etc. like you can now.People used to stalk each other more and not just rush in as much as they do now a days. Equipment has encouraged a more Kickboxing style of fighting. Styles tend to get muted and everyone starts looking the same after a while. A kickboxer can attain proficiency in as little as six months of training. To master a more technical and precise art that strikes at vital targets and makes use of technique rather than brute force takes much longer. Now, having said that, I do think that there is a usefulness to having equipment as well. Power and the ability to take a good punch or kick that is really being aimed at you is very good training. In the Kenpo, Kempo and related arts, there is a large amount of equipment-free training while practicing techniques such as tricks, counters combinations etc. as well as sparring with gear on. Anyways, this is just a long way of saying tht there were virtues as well as pitfalls to the pre-gear days of the martial arts.


 
I agree here, even just back in the 80s, training was different, more controlled. Don't get me wrong, there was actually more contact, but it was controlled contact. It seems that now there is very little contact whatsoever in some systems. I like the contact, afterall, we are training to fight. I've actually seen people who have been training for a fair amount of time that have not even hit a bag! What's up with that? IMHO, those people may go into shock even if they are the ones delivering the blow ... let's face it, even hitting someone can hurt and if you've never experienced that feeling, you may freak out. Wouldn't that be sad. So gear, I agree, positives and negatives, but it is out there, use it and at least experience some contact, or you may be in for a real surprise someday ... I like to say that I train so I won't have to fight, so let's hope that day never comes


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## Gufbal1982

14 Kempo said:


> I agree here, even just back in the 80s, training was different, more controlled. Don't get me wrong, there was actually more contact, but it was controlled contact. It seems that now there is very little contact whatsoever in some systems. I like the contact, afterall, we are training to fight. I've actually seen people who have been training for a fair amount of time that have not even hit a bag! What's up with that? IMHO, those people may go into shock even if they are the ones delivering the blow ... let's face it, even hitting someone can hurt and if you've never experienced that feeling, you may freak out. Wouldn't that be sad. So gear, I agree, positives and negatives, but it is out there, use it and at least experience some contact, or you may be in for a real surprise someday ... I like to say that I train so I won't have to fight, so let's hope that day never comes



Now, let me ask a question to all of you that read this thread.  As a former CI, we were told at meetings that a good way to make some easy money for the week was to just pitch people on sparring gear packages, even if the person wasn't ready.  What do you think that does to the student?  Would you think it would emphasize getting better or do you think it might instill a bit of an ego in them?


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## Josh Oakley

Gufbal1982 said:


> Which location teaches groundfighting?  I know I was never taught groundfighting...



A lot of them, now. Kent, WA, does. I just had a ground-fighting sesson this evening.


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## Josh Oakley

14 Kempo said:


> I have and I'll agree, it's eye opening. I am one that also notices body positioning. During seminars, even if the training is focussed on something else, watch the body positioning. It seems they are always in position without thought, it's natural. Proof to the hours upon hours of training. I was introduced to checking back in the FV days. It's not something that is readily taught thus far in my USSD training, but will be discussed if asked about in the proper arena. Problem seems to be that not all instructors have enough knowledge to even know about this themselves.




Wait, what? checking's first taught at the Yellow Belt level as part of DM 3. I'm confused.


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## Josh Oakley

shaolin ninja 4 said:


> Everyone should go train at another dojo before they say their art is the best.
> If you dont know whats out there how do you know yours is the best?



Plus, if they train at more than one dojo, they might get rid of the idea of a "best" art.


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## Gufbal1982

Josh Oakley said:


> A lot of them, now. Kent, WA, does. I just had a ground-fighting sesson this evening.



What is your standard for a grappling class?  Maybe your experience is different than mine seeing as you are in WA.


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## Gufbal1982

Josh Oakley said:


> Wait, what? checking's first taught at the Yellow Belt level as part of DM 3. I'm confused.


 
Technically, if you learn DM 3 at yellow belt with the check, aren't you not learning by the book?  I clearly remember being told that the manual is to instructors as the bible is to catholics...you stick to it no matter what.  I guess only some instructors follow that.  I know it was seriously stressed in the academy when I was in it though.  I think teaching the check at yellow isn't a good idea at first.  You should be getting them used to the idea of just doing the DM.  A yellow belt is still relatively new, unless that person has experience in other arts.  Then, I think it's ok to add the check.  However, I know it can be confusing to people just starting out.  They mistake it for a block instead of a check.


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## 14 Kempo

Josh Oakley said:


> Wait, what? checking's first taught at the Yellow Belt level as part of DM 3. I'm confused.


 
As far as a check, I was thinking more of 'leg checking' ... being that this technique, #3, is done typically against the standard front lunge punch, I check the leg, my right leg to thier right leg. This should not, IMO, be taught at lower ranks, not below green or brown. Leg checking can cause injury and should be done with caution. Hand checking is fine to teach and causes virtually no damage.

My comments earlier, with regards to checking, were focused on the legs. Sorry if I was unclear.


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## Josh Oakley

No, thank you. that clears it up a lot. Thank you!


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## Josh Oakley

Gufbal1982 said:


> What is your standard for a grappling class?  Maybe your experience is different than mine seeing as you are in WA.



Once or twice a month, in place of our sparring class, if there aren't that many people, and we're all willing to stick around, the class will be an extended sparring/grappling class. WHen it's just grappling, we'll work on specific grappling techniques (transitioning between positions, arm locks, chokes, etc.) and then spend plenty of time actually grappling. 

I come out about 2 pounds lighter on those nights.


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## Gufbal1982

You kind of didn't answer the question, Josh.  I asked what is your standard for a grappling class.  You see, in a traditional school that teaches only grappling, there are basics and warm ups that go before you drill from position to position, submissions or even "roll."  Every BJJ school that I have walked into has taught a 90 minute group class for that reason.  So, what kind of grappling basics do you do?  Do you start on your knees to grapple or do you start from standing?  If you start from standing, do you work on your wrestling skills in class?  So, let me rephrase my original question...what do you do in a grappling class with USSD?  I am now officially curious to find out...


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## shaolin ninja 4

Hey does anybody know why villaris is all over the east coast and he only has 4 schools on the west coast?
Does he have any plans to open more schools on the west coast?


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## Josh Oakley

Gufbal1982 said:


> You kind of didn't answer the question, Josh. I asked what is your standard for a grappling class. You see, in a traditional school that teaches only grappling, there are basics and warm ups that go before you drill from position to position, submissions or even "roll." Every BJJ school that I have walked into has taught a 90 minute group class for that reason. So, what kind of grappling basics do you do? Do you start on your knees to grapple or do you start from standing? If you start from standing, do you work on your wrestling skills in class? So, let me rephrase my original question...what do you do in a grappling class with USSD? I am now officially curious to find out...


 

Sorry, I should have asked for clarification before answering your question. I'll give you as detailed a description as I know how to give. Keep in mind, I'm not answering for USSD as a whole, though. Just for my school. At my school, we begin a grappling workout with ten minutes of calisthenics, and five minutes of stretching, to limber up. after that, what we do depends on the night. According to my instructors schedule book the class is supposed to be an hour, but we've never had a grappling class that was that short. Here are the breakdowns, which are a bit of a SWAG (scientific wild-*** guess), based on the grappling classes I've been to:

(15-20 min)Warm up and stretching.

Then it's usually a combination of two of these three:
(25-30 min) transitioning from position to position.
(25-30 min) grappling techniques (arm bars, chokes, etc.)
(25-30 min) grappling, 2-3 minute rounds, switching partners at end of round.

Or 50-65 min of grappling, with the instructor coaching us. most of the students are new to grappling and have little more than a year of martial arts experience, we, at this time, grapple beginning on our knees (remember: I'm SWAGing. That's my guess as far as the reasoning)

What we do depends on who's in the class at the time, and I haven't seen a grappling class even done if more than 6 of us show up. What the instructor teaches varies on who shows up. I can't tell you of any kind of definite arrangent for the grappling class, but that's because I've only been to four grappling classes, so I'm no expert on my instructors methods. Hope this helps, because it's the best I can do.

So far it doesn't seem to differ much from the BJJ I've learned in other studios, and my guess is that it won't, as far as technique goes. I'm sure it will get more in depth as time progresses, and students progress and are ready for stuff like going into grappling from a standing position, but for now I've given the best answer I can give. What I can say with certainty is that even with almost a decade of experience in wrestling, Jujitsu, and Army combatives, the classes are a workout and a learning experience for me.


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## Gerry Seymour

Royal Jackson said:


> Dan is a professional, it took me 4 months to get close, when I got in, I tore it up, but he change his style, to push me back out, me and Dan are old, SPEED SPEED SPEED, but have to have power, I broke Dan's ribs, cause he broke my jaw, but I came back.....Royal


You are replying to a thread that hasn't had a post in 13 years.


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## _Simon_

gpseymour said:


> You are replying to a thread that hasn't had a post in 13 years.


I'm actually aiming at finding the oldest possible last post in a thread, and posting, in order to claim the title of "greatest necromancer" or.. "longest delay upon revival".... there's gotta be a better record-title name... XD


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## Gerry Seymour

_Simon_ said:


> I'm actually aiming at finding the oldest possible last post in a thread, and posting, in order to claim the title of "greatest necromancer" or.. "longest delay upon revival".... there's gotta be a better record-title name... XD


Seems like a good use of your time.


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## Flying Crane

gpseymour said:


> Seems like a good use of your time.


Well hey, if Covid has you unemployed...


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## Buka

_Simon_ said:


> I'm actually aiming at finding the oldest possible last post in a thread, and posting, in order to claim the title of "greatest necromancer" or.. "longest delay upon revival".... there's gotta be a better record-title name... XD



You'll get my vote, you sly necromancer, you.


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## _Simon_

Flying Crane said:


> Well hey, if Covid has you unemployed...


Yes! Exactly! Tis a splendid use of my time 


Buka said:


> You'll get my vote, you sly necromancer, you.


Haha why thank you sir! The secret post has been made...


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