# not quite understanding this concept



## IMAA (Oct 15, 2003)

Hello everyone.

   I have a question.  I would like to know or best understand the reason behind all the "rolling" in systema. 

  Okay as I set and watch all the video series w/ vlad and Mikail i notice everytime they hit someone or attempt to or whatever, the student is rolling all over the place?  Now Im confused as to is this the intention of what they expect you to do in real combat situations?  It looks as if they want you to be thier "fall guy" as he attempt to attack you you just fall. This seems to go against natural principal most people dont want to go to the ground, yet fall there purposely in a fight.   I understand alot of the principles of the C\/\CTEMA and respect its outlook.  But when your an outsider looking in, it often looks like someone the (TEACHER) is makeing the student be his dummy.  As me and my peers sit around and watch this tape series or what not it's hard not to critisize the movements and say " man that will never work in real life"  Thier looks too never be any "realistic" approach to the systema training. Its all done at slow motion, eazy going techn.  Now im a firm believer that you must crawl before you can walk, and walk before you can run, but for the instance of SYSTEMA, is it possible to use this in an actual fighting application against someone trying to take your head off?  I mean this post in no disrespeact at all, im just wanting to find out the truth.  I'm just going off the video training series.   Unfortunetly I don't live within an area that teaches Systema.  Probably the closest place is over 800miles away.  
Any assistant would help.

Thanks w/ respect to all.

Cory


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## jellyman (Oct 15, 2003)

Well, it's going to be difficult to answer without seeing what specifically you are talking about, but whether someone rolls or not is up to them. Check out the SSG thread for more info.

Also if you go to my website, you will see some people going not so slow (I recommend you get the latest version of Windows Media player if you don't have it already before viewing).

Long story short -  given the real fight, why do you think we'd go slow?

For the benefits of slow sparring, check out the SSG thread, also there's an essay on my site.

Whether fast or slow, the philosophy is: if they don't get out of the way, hit them.

Not that systema is just about striking, by any means...

Does it really work? Well, it works for me. And that's based on the other guy trying pretty hard.

Of course, most people are skeptical until they spar with a good systema guy, and even then they may wonder wtf happened rather than think 'it worked', for a while. This has happened in the club I help run, although they tend to get it by the 3rd or 4th class. After this is when the soft work is better done (IMO), when the other guy knows what it all means.

Typically for a new person I simply invite them to have a go, and once I get their attention I suggest we take it down a notch so he/she can learn some. Assuming that they want to.

I leave you with a couple questions - if you expect extraordinary results, why wuold you expect ordinary training methods? And if expect ordinary results, why bother changing what you already do?


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 15, 2003)

Arthur's got a good article on the "Slow Sparring" up on his site and its also in the July issue of MT Magazine (free download).

If I understood it correctly, you go slow to work on precision. Theres a lot more to it though.

:asian:


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## Jackal (Oct 15, 2003)

When I first started training in Systema, Vladimir always had me roll when I was either put down by another practitioner or when I felt that my stance integrity was compromised. He said I had to do this intentionally because I came from a very tough, hard-styled background. He wanted me to learn to yield to and accept all forms of pressure including that of gravity. He told me it would help me relax, teach me to be soft & supple, and learn how not to fight when I felt uncomfortable but just learn to ride the wave. The ground is the most unyielding, least forgiving opponent youll ever be in contact with. If you can be soft enough to match its firmness regardless of the intensity of your movement, what does a fist or foot have to offer in comparison?

Is rolling always stressed and considered tactically viable? Although everything is circumstantial, most of the time Id say, no. Is it a great way to help practitioners relax, stop fighting themselves and get out of their own way? Absolutely.

Summary, its a training aid that helps one learn not to struggle, neither with the opponent nor themselves. Always going with or around impellent force.

At least thats how I see it.

Plus, its kept me from breaking many a time.



-Jackal


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## NYCRonin (Oct 15, 2003)

Hi Cory
  I can certainly sympathize with your assessment of how Systema might appear to an outsider on tape - that was my first exposure to it. I also regarded it as ineffective in real life.
I did experiment with some of the whip like motions on the 200 lb. heavy bag at work - and made it jump on contact like never before. Then came the experimentation with certain defenses illustrated on my 'TRS' tapes - certain ones worked rather well. From there, detailed analysis and MANY tape playing, experimentation with my best friend and student. Soon enough - there was a certain 'something' being expressed in my movement.
Then came meeting and training with Vladimir and my training really took off.
As far as all the rolling goes - I would have to see the particualr instances to explain why. Sometimes a rol is used to evade, sometimes it is the best way to elude a lock. Many times a new person might not realize that the uke has had his form subtly broken and is being taken down. When a take down is well done, the body's allignment is so out of whack that the uke kinda collapses, like a house of cards. An experienced uke, upon feeling himself going down, will turn that collapse into a more graceful roll. It IS better than getting dumped in a heap. 
One of the ways you can tell a more experienced Systema practitioner is by the way he can break an attackers balance and form in such a manner as to make it appear almost as though he has done little to nothing to make him fall.
The slow motion work is something that we use a fair bit BUT make no mistake, a couple (or three, or four) with expereince will go at it much faster, and harder (while retaining relaxed motion), than what the tapes might display. Certain things do not get presented on tape because, without a teacher, it is easy for someone to wind up focusing on a mistaken impression of what they think they see. To use your analogy - right now, the tapes (overall) have covered the crawl phase and recently the concept of walking is creeping in - many of the family have excellent 'running' tapes BUT these are not commercially available - we kinda trade them for our own development.

Can Systema be used against a commited attacker? Indeed, it can.
I am employed by the NYC Dept. of Correction at its well known island resort (Rikers Island). Been so for 18 years. I am also a 40 year practioner of 'the arts'. Over the years - at work alone - I have been involved in over 100 'use of force' incidents...multiple attackers, weapons, mini-riots - the works. As such, I have applied my martial practice many times against very committed attackers, guys who knew only violence as response, those with nothing to lose. Of all the martial expressions I have been trained in, I have found my Systema the most effective and dependable under all circumstances, at work and in the street. Without going into a recounting of 'war stories' - let it suffice to say that, for me, it works just fine.

As you know, it is difficult to experience Systema for many people (reminds me of how hard it was to find legitimate Kung fu training in the late 60's or Nin-po in the early 80's). That situation is rapidly changing. As interest develops, people are contacting Vladimir, or one of his affiliate instructors (such as yours truly); and arranging for seminars in their area. (It is easier than going to Toronto or Moscow - but if you want it bad enough - no distance is too far -  I met Jackal, Arthur and NoSuchChick in NYC first, met Jellyman in Moscow first, Furtry in Toronto). This usually leads someone to do whatever is necessary to get the training necessary to become an affiliate themself - and then a group forms and then...
I am certain that, in time, you will be able to study from someone with 'hands on' experience. 
Perhaps you will sponser a seminar in your area one day or we will meet in Toronto.
Rob


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## Jay Bell (Oct 15, 2003)

I can relate to Jackel's post.  Typically whenever a hand makes contact with the back of my head/neck, my body automatically wants to lock solid into place.  Kwan has worked hard on relieving this.

Simple idea...when a suckerpunch comes through and the instinct is to lock the body hard on contact, you get hurt.  If you allow the imput to move the body into a roll, the impact is lessened dramatically.  It can be the difference between continuing and not getting back up.

Everything is slowed down to a crawl to help work this out of you.


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## NYCRonin (Oct 15, 2003)

Jay
  "Simple idea...when a suckerpunch comes through and the instinct is to lock the body hard on contact, you get hurt. If you allow the imput to move the body into a roll, the impact is lessened dramatically. It can be the difference between continuing and not getting back up."
   Very true - I know by experience...painful experience.
3 years ago, I recieved a blow from behind by a much larger attacker with some sort of 'brass knuckle'. I didnt feel the 'pain' but my body went right down to the ground and sorta bounced right back up. The attacker, seeing this - ran out of the club I was at. 
   3 fractured bones in and around the right eye socket, 2 teeth broken at the root, a tooth through the lip...still have some facial nerve damage. The examining doctor was amazed I did not go unconscious or worse from the blow.


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## TAZ (Oct 15, 2003)

Bigger then ROBG!!!! don't scare the short people (like me!)

The epitome of the 'no technique' concept was bought home to me in my class on Monday..we were playing around with using everything but our hands to break an attackers form and put them on the ground/lock/strike them. One of my students attacked..ended up on the ground with my knee on his throat and said show me that again...my answer  I Can't not because I don't want to share the knowledge but because he attacked at speed and I can honestly say I do not know what I did ..I just know that I moved...therfore I could not repeat what I had done as the next repetition my reaction would be different based on speed, distance and most importantly feeling...sounds zen..but its all 'just' movement.  Arguably you could say that all accomplished martial artists would say the same...the only difference I would point out is that I am not an accomplished martial artist by any means!!


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## Kwan Lee (Oct 15, 2003)

"my body went right down to the ground and sorta bounced right back up. The attacker, seeing this - ran out of the club I was at. "

Oh, man, that made me laugh!


Seriously, Jackal has made some good points.  I would like to add that this comfort with the ground does have significant application to groundwork and using offensive rolling while evading and moving around.  Secondly, it is rare that we get in fights in wide-open parking lots and on surfaces as smooth as a roller rink, where there isn't at least two or three obstacles (chairs, broken glass, containers, staircases, short walls and railings, buddies on the ground) in your way.  Just as one would conform around a blow from a fist or kick, it would be important to also avoid contact with these objects when pushed into them.  At the very least, you would "roll" on them, much like "gearing" down into a ball-like shape when you hit a wall running straight on.  There a few drills you can do to work on this.

If you still don't want to roll, try having someone, like Jim King from Toronto, start swinging a bear claw (nasty medieval weapon, tons of iron spikes at the end of a heavy staff) at you and see if you don't do at least one roll to get out of the way!  If you don't have a bear claw, try a real sword.  If you don't roll, you'll still find yourself collapsing very near to the ground at times, and you'll have to do this softly.  

Why am I so sure?  Because, if the person is working honestly with the weapon, even at slow speed, you'll find yourself in awkward and compromising positions as you start moving away from his attacks.  What's the point in hold your position then?  Escape!  And sometimes the only answer is to escape via roll, or else become 2 shorter people.

Kwan Lee

Russian Martial Art Arizona
www.russiancombat.com


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## NYCRonin (Oct 15, 2003)

I also have had the experience of having Jim help me to 'move' as Kwan described.
Last year, during a Toronto visit, Jim met me at Vlad's school - he had told me he would bring some 'toys' to help me work movement.
He arrived and placed on the floor a few knives, a cossack whip, a staff, a machette, the mentioned bears claw/wolfs tooth (a staff with many nasty teeth at one end and a pike at the other) and a battle ax - all very real metal 'toys'.
We worked 'up the ladder' of difficulty and complexity - and you can bet your butt that by the end of that session - I WAS MOVING!!! 

Ah, inspiration - comes in many forms. Nothing quite as motivating as having a guy like Jim King swinging a battle ax at ya!


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## Clive (Oct 17, 2003)

Rolling is basically one of the ways of moving if are going to or on the ground.


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## Furtry (Oct 18, 2003)

> Hello everyone.
> 
> I have a question. I would like to know or best understand the reason behind all the "rolling" in systema.
> 
> ...



Two things, first is my thought, 1) Learn to do the max that will be required so it will be easier to everything else.
2) If you can't learn it slowly, how are you going to do it quickly?
That I got from Scotty from club Vlad.


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## IMAA (Oct 20, 2003)

Hi guys,  sorry it took me so long to reply.  My PC was down this whole week.  And im still not sure its running to par.  

You all made great sense.  And in a sense that was alot of what I was searching for.   My understanding now is its more a training method of just gettting out of harms way than a mere "just do" and dont ask questions.   

  Last night I had a small group over and we started working on some systema drills, getting our bodies to flow in a more natural movement.  Starting w/ one person in the middle and the other 5 of us, placing a fist on different areas, and that person in the middle was "yielding" to the others.  Then we uped the any to using 2 fist on different parts of the body, then we added "train, knives" and the person was yielding to that allowing them to smoothly transition out of the hold.  It was great all of us walkedout with a better understanding.  I for now have no Systema teacher, but still just will work it as to the best of my knowledge and will someday find one when it comes my way, or do as was mentioned bring someone in for a seminar.

  I too work in corrections, so I can relate....haha good times.

thanks all be well

Cory


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## Samurai (Oct 20, 2003)

Any Systema teacher willing to come to Central  Indiana for a seminar?
We have a small group but can advertise 

Contact me or Cory and maybe we can work out some details.
Thanks,
Jeremy Bays

FarmNaz@sprynet.com


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## arnisador (Oct 20, 2003)

Maybe hold it in in Indianapolis? I'd certainly like to come.


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## NYCRonin (Oct 20, 2003)

Samurai,
   Looks like you might have found your first seminar attendee - and in a new record time, I think.
   Could be a 'good omen'.


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## Samurai (Oct 21, 2003)

I really think this MIdwest area would like to see some exposer to Systema.

IF we were to host a seminar in Indiana some place.  Who would come?  Pipe in so I can see what the response from my internet family would be.  This is not an sort of offical committment but just a general survey.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bays
Farmland, Indiana
IMAA


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## arnisador (Oct 21, 2003)

I'm in Terre Haute and am very interested. Driving to Indianapolis or Bloomington is fine, beyond that starts to be a bigger time commitment than I may be able to make.


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