# To-Shin Do/Bujinkan



## bydand (Feb 17, 2007)

First things first.  This is *NOT* a thread intended to compare the arts, bash each other, or discuss which is "Better".  I want to see if practitioners on both sides can find some common ground in order to mend some of the fences and bridges that have been torched and/or damaged the past few years.  There have been very heated discussions in the past on every forum I have been to, most of which erupted into flame wars.  Here on MT there have been discussions/disagreements about the differences.  I want to see some healing here, and if there ever was an online forum and people that can accomplish this; it is Martial Talk.

I started in a Bujinkan school.  Granted the Instructors were closely tied to SKH and so we would naturally have a tendancy to lean toward his teaching style anyway.  When he formed the Quest Centers and went with a new name for the art taught I figured it would cause problems, never did I think it would extend this far down the timeline.  I know everybody who studies any variant of Ninjutsu tends to be a bit defensive.  How could we not really?  "Ninja's" and their various incantations are everywhere basicly slamming the name and image of the arts we love into the ground with just stupid claims and actions.  We know who they are, no need to name them or discuss them.  That would be the major similarity I would think.  The desire to "defend and protect" the art we have chosen.  Others I can see, in no particular order I might add, are:  Movement is tops, not strength;  Subtlties<sp?> can make or break a technique;  Pride in our art;  Tendency to not discuss "what" we train in to outsiders due to misunderstanding associated with the arts;  Etc...  Please fill out my list with what you can see as what is common ground between these arts.  Also, please do not knock someone elses position on what they find to be common, even if it does seem strange or even downright wrong to us.  Who knows, for their particular school, they may do things closer in one area than other schools do.

Another thing, Could we just call it to-Shin Do?  I have used the "TSD" abbreveation before, and among practioners it makes sense, but to others the question arises "What are they talking about Tang-Soo Do for?"  I know I had to remind myself of that many times.


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## Don Roley (Feb 17, 2007)

bydand said:


> First things first.  This is *NOT* a thread intended to compare the arts, bash each other, or discuss which is "Better".



I think it will probably end up that way, despite your wishes.

I will be blunt and say that what I see as a cause for a lot of the problems is that a few select Toshindo posters can't see it as a seperate art. Somehow it always seems to be that they sneak in the impression that theirs is an _improved_ version of Bujinkan for today's reality. If you look at most of the flame wars that have gone on here, that one point has been the match that set off things most of the time.

In threads that the idea has not been raised, things are smooth. But it seems as if a few people (not here anymore for the most part) made it their duty to promote that image as often as possible.

The other problem seems to be around the fact that Hatsumi ordered that Hayes' name be taken down from the board at Honbu and has declared on numerous occasions that he is not a student of his anymore. You accept that, but there seems to be many that will try to present any theory they think will be believed to give another impression.

If you want to start the healing, then merely getting people to accept that Hayes is no longer a student of Hatsumi and stopping any comments about Toshindo in relation to Bujinkan is a god first step. If Toshindo people talked about Toshindo techniques as if they had no relation to the Bujinkan, there would be less trouble IMO. So you see why I think threads like this can actually backfire.


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## lalom (Feb 17, 2007)

Well Bydand,

Due to the tone of Mr. Roley's post, I really don't think that the To-Shin Do guys here will chime in too well.  Even if his post was innocent, it didn't answer the intent of your posted question.  Perhaps I'm not understanding here (very probable!).   

Bydand, you asked for the "common ground" between the arts.  What do they have in common?  Is this the question?  Are you asking from the perspective of To-Shin Do practitioners or both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do?


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## Don Roley (Feb 17, 2007)

lalom said:


> Due to the tone of Mr. Roley's post, I really don't think that the To-Shin Do guys here will chime in too well.



I am always blunt and call things as I see them. And there has been a lot of problems with a few Toshindo people. We had to ban at least a few of the worst ones eventually.

I fear threads like this because it seems that we can't go very far into one without *someone* saying, "we have that too- but we also have additional, improved stuff you can't find in brand x-kan." I have also talked about this sort of thing in regards to Bujinkan/Genbukan discussions.

I strongly feel that if we try to treat Toshindo and Bujinkan as seperate arts that we will be much better off. If Hayes wanted to do things like the Bujinkan, he would not have created Toshindo. If you want to talk about things that are done the same in both arts, then you better be prepared for when there are small differences for one side to claim that it is an improvement and the other to say that it is a misunderstanding of what was being taught. And then the flames begin.


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## bydand (Feb 17, 2007)

You have a great point Don that never crossed my mind really.  As for you being blunt - fantastic I applaud that actually, because there is so much beating around the bush and people who actually mean one thing, but try to put it in the most generic terms that their meaning is mistaken.  I was hoping you would chime in here actually, and was looking forward to your take on this.

lalom, I was hoping that both Bujinkan and To-Shin Do practitioners would chime in.

Yes, it has to a given that they ARE two seperate arts, but those two arts share a common link in the past and still share some items yet.  I am afraid that this will turn into a pissing match and just widen the gap yet again.  Please everybody try to refrain from doing that.


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## Don Roley (Feb 18, 2007)

bydand said:


> Yes, it has to a given that they ARE two seperate arts, but those two arts share a common link in the past and still share some items yet.



I understand what you are trying to do. But you have to remember that this section was just recently placed far away from the section where the Bujinkan is in for a reason. The worst trolls are gone. But there are still many more out there. Many more might join just to cause trouble if they can.

It is my opinion that instead of trying to find a common ground, in the short term we need to treat the two here as completly seperate arts. When I see someone doing FMA similar but different from Bujinkan it is of interest to me. I ask why they do it differently rather than assume it is due to a mistake. But if I see something done differently in the same art as I, then I may comment and the matter of one side being right and the other wrong comes up instead of looking at it as a matter of outlook and strategy.

I think that the best thing for this section would be to attract and encourage a large number of Toshindo practicioners that are secure enough in what they do that they do not have to compare themselves favorably with the Bujinkan or anything else. With a community that is quite able to treat what they do as something different from Bujinkan, then you have the ground work for people to discuss things objectively.

As things stand, I can imagine some of the trolls chiming in or sending in others to take their place to push their position. I don't think you want that any more than I. There needs to be time to build up Toshido in the minds of everyone as an art that does not need to compare itself to anything else for friendly comparison to go on.


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## Kreth (Feb 18, 2007)

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, return to the original topic.

-Kreth/Jeff Velten
-MT Senior Moderator-


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2007)

I think that there are obviously a lot of *similarities*. (how could there not as Hayes Sensei was a student of Soke)  Yet I believe that Hayes Sensei has always had some differances in the way he taught as compared with how Soke teaches.  With the formation of To Shin Do, Hayes took a gigantic step in stepping out from under Hatsumi Sensei's shadow and now is a head of his own art and organization.  This is probably a good thing for his growth.  I have met some skilled To Shin Do people and also some uskilled *as this is true* for every art.  I hope that Hayes Sensei has success and enjoys prosperity with his new art of To Shin Do! 

I think it is hard to compare them at this point because To Shin Do is still a relatively new martial art.  However if pressed some of the glaring differeances is the approach to the Godai and changing some stances and defensive posturing during a physical confrontation.  Other than that they do seem very similar at times.

Truthfully To Shin Do like any art has great potential with the right people leading it and with the right spirit behind it.  I for one am glad that the To Shin Do people on MartialTalk have their own forum and can now explore their art in it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2007)

Here is a To Shin Do promotions video clip:  http://www.questmartialarts.com/html/quest_video.html
Maybe some discussions points could be generated off it regarding
some differeances!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2007)

Yet another To Shin Do video clip.  This one features a Handgun disarm.
http://www.questdojo.co.uk/

Maybe these two clips can generate some discussion points.


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## SKB (Feb 18, 2007)

Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do? If the whole concept of To-Shin-Do having anything to do with what you do in Japan is to much for you, why do you insist on viewing these threads? Jumping up and down screaming To-Shin-Do is not Bujinkan is kind of old!!!!

Mr. VanCise, what are some of the things you noticed in the videos? I'd like to hear your ideas/comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 18, 2007)

I think that Don can make valid points on To Shin Do. (primarily because the art's parent system is Budo Taijutsu)  Though for anybody to have any kind of deep understanding of a system they should really train in it for a while.

As to the clips that I posted.  John Poliquin's Dojo looks very nice and a well balanced professional dojo with all ranges of younger to older practitioners.  Technique wise there were some very nice ones and some other ones that the practitioners probably need a little work on but what would you expect from a rank promotion video tape.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




The clip from the UK school had some nice things to it.  I have seen almost identical movement in many systems including Budo Taijutsu, etc with it.  The verbal directions part of the person being attacked was good and learning how to use your voice and give directions is a skill that more people and systems could work on.

Those were just a few things that I saw.


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## Don Roley (Feb 18, 2007)

SKB said:


> Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do?



Take a look at the title of this thread.

Go ahead......

Take a look again.......

I really do not have much interest in many of the recent threads. I post in a  lot of sections here at martialtalk and read a lot of the threads. When someone asks a question I think I can answer, I tend to do so. And I give my opinion frequently. I gave mine about the potential for flaming in this thread to Bydand and he seems to have taken it under consideration and you seem to have proven my point.

Oh, and look at post #7 in this thread. I will let you follow in the spirit of that post now that I have spoken my side of the story and answered your question.


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## bydand (Feb 18, 2007)

SKB said:


> Mr. Roley....... why do you even come over to the threads talking about To-Shin-Do? If the whole concept of To-Shin-Do having anything to do with what you do in Japan is to much for you, why do you insist on viewing these threads? Jumping up and down screaming To-Shin-Do is not Bujinkan is kind of old!!!!
> 
> Mr. VanCise, what are some of the things you noticed in the videos? I'd like to hear your ideas/comments!!!!!!!!!!!!!




exactly what I didn't want.  Constructive comments please.  Don happens to have valid points and personally I respect his views very highly, as well as Brians'.  I'm sorry I started this thread as it seems to be the people from my own art who stirs things up and are oblivious to common courtesy.


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## bydand (Feb 18, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> As to the clips that I posted.  John Poliquin's Dojo looks very nice and a well balanced professional dojo with all ranges of younger to older practitioners.  Technique wise there were some very nice ones and some other ones that the practitioners probably need a little work on but what would you expect from a rank promotion video tape.



Thanks for the clip Brian.  It is kind of hard to see what color belt they have on while doing the demos, but it appeares the highest is a red which would be somewhere around 5th kyu if I remember right.  Most of them look to be between white and Yellow/Black which would be around 8th or 9th kyu.  Just starting the journey.  

John is a great guy who was with the Bujinkan for years before following SKH and To-Shin Do path.  He is just scary good in reality.


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## lalom (Feb 18, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I am always blunt and call things as I see them. And there has been a lot of problems with a few Toshindo people. We had to ban at least a few of the worst ones eventually.
> 
> I fear threads like this because it seems that we can't go very far into one without *someone* saying, "we have that too- but we also have additional, improved stuff you can't find in brand x-kan." I have also talked about this sort of thing in regards to Bujinkan/Genbukan discussions.
> 
> I strongly feel that if we try to treat Toshindo and Bujinkan as seperate arts that we will be much better off. If Hayes wanted to do things like the Bujinkan, he would not have created Toshindo. If you want to talk about things that are done the same in both arts, then you better be prepared for when there are small differences for one side to claim that it is an improvement and the other to say that it is a misunderstanding of what was being taught. And then the flames begin.


 
I completely understand what you are saying Don, but there is also another forum entitled "Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan" for the differences (of which there are) to be discussed.  I, for one, would like to try and find the things we have in common instead of always looking for things that divide us.


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## SKB (Feb 18, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> ........ The verbal directions part of the person being attacked was good and learning how to use your voice and give directions is a skill that more people and systems could work on.


 
I have to agree with you on the verbal commands! They really make a diffrence in a real situation. Other arts I have studied did nothing along this line. The only verbal aspect was yelling a 'KI'. Giving commands works well on a legal level also. If the witnesses hear and see you giving orders then the 'bad guy' jumps up and comes out you, you are in a better position then if you just stood there pointing a gun at him.


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## MrFunnieman (Feb 20, 2007)

lalom,

I would submit that there are terms that are shared by both lineages.
Like: Omote gyaku, Ura gyaku, Ganseki nage, etc.  However the execution of this principles/ techniques varies according to the lineage.  The kiai in To-shin Do are "Stop", "No", etc.  I don't have experience with Booj kiai.  I have trained with some booj guys, but it was a basement type scenario, not a formal dojo.  Those are a couple obvious similarities as I see it that "most" people "should" be able to agree on.



lalom said:


> I completely understand what you are saying Don, but there is also another forum entitled "Differences between To-Shin Do and the Bujinkan" for the differences (of which there are) to be discussed.  I, for one, would like to try and find the things we have in common instead of always looking for things that divide us.


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## maccuda (Feb 21, 2007)

Honestly, they are not so far apart
I have studied both and cannot understand all the anger towards eachother.
Everyone their own system, where ever they feel happy.
I agree with lalom that we should look at the things we have incommon.
we are bound by history in any effect.


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## saru1968 (Feb 21, 2007)

How much time have you spent training in either art?


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## SKB (Feb 21, 2007)

Who has spent any significant time studying ToShinDo and another system? From the post I can read some people have done some of this, but has anyone spent a good amount of time?


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

bydand said:


> I'm sorry I started this thread as it seems to be the people from my own art who stirs things up and are oblivious to common courtesy.



When someone like you comments on the bad behavior of someone in his own art, it lets all of us not in the art see that it is not populated by people marching in lockstep. So I really appreciate you commenting on this and nipping a TSD/ BBT fight in the bud.

I don't think there is any art that does not have a few idiots. I remember one guy who claimed to study Bujinkan and just _had_ to go over to the TKD forum and tell them  they were wasting their time. Some of us really wanted to find out who that guy was and jump up and down on him.

As long as people like you keep things postive here and there is time to heal from all the damage certain people from places as widely distributed as California and the UK did here, then we can look forward to a good relationship in the future.

But there are arts like Okinawan karate that do similar katas, but are different arts. They use the same name, but the sequence and such is different in each art. When one art does something different from another Okinawan art, there really does not seem to be much need for anyone to say that the other guys are wrong. But I don't think that will be the case with ninjutsu. As long as people use the terms that the soke uses, then they will be held to the standard and definitions of that use. That has been and will be a source of problems in the near future I feel.


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## Carol (Feb 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> But there are arts like Okinawan karate that do similar katas, but are different arts. They use the same name, but the sequence and such is different in each art. When one art does something different from another Okinawan art, there really does not seem to be much need for anyone to say that the other guys are wrong. But I don't think that will be the case with ninjutsu. As long as people use the terms that the soke uses, then they will be held to the standard and definitions of that use. That has been and will be a source of problems in the near future I feel.



Hey Don, would you be able to offer an example where the same terminology to one means something different to the other?  I don't know if that's a fair question given that I don't study either art but I was just curious.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

Saru1968, i have spend 2,5 year in Bujinkan and 2 years now in the To-shin do system.
That might not be a very long time but actually training it does give you (or i think) an understanding what it is about instead og guessing or

Mind you that different schools have different teachers so not 1 school is the same even if they study the same priciples.

I find the differences between the 2 not that far apart. Yes there are differences but the roots are the same and to me the base (techniques & stances etc) are of the same nature.
To-shin do is just adapted a bit more to modern day society. Postures are disguised more (so you dont look agressive on cctv) and especially in the beginning techniques deal with the most common attacks (like hooks/punches/tackles etc) and not alot with history, sword and the more classical forms one gets taught in the Bujinkan.
That anyway is my opinion.
They both are great ways and great to practice, one is not "better" then the other, they are different in some ways but similar in even more.


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> Hey Don, would you be able to offer an example where the same terminology to one means something different to the other?  I don't know if that's a fair question given that I don't study either art but I was just curious.



Sorry, I don't know much about Okinawan arts aside from what I have seen some people talk about. IIRC, the kata called Pian is called Heian in other arts and there has been some small differences in the way things are done. Why, I do not know. If people think that one art is doing things differently from them because they are wrong, it is not something that seems to have been mentioned around me.


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> I find the differences between the 2 not that far apart. Yes there are differences but the roots are the same and to me the base (techniques & stances etc) are of the same nature.



Perhaps if you spent more time in one or the other the differnces would become clearer. Some people look at arts like karate and jujutsu and can't tell the difference. Some of us can sip certain wines and not be able to tell a burgendy from a caberet. But if you know the subject matter a great deal, then you can tell the differences.

The secret is to say that you _*can't tell the differencedue to a lack of experience*_ rather than try to say that _*there is no difference.*_ With the former, you keep your mind open to the chance that there may be differences you can't see. But with the former, you pretty much take a stake that is hard to change no matter how much evidence is laid out in front of you.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

Don,

i know i'm not a master or in the field for 20 years but i'm sure i can say more about the differences then most people on this forum who just speculate or have information secondhand.
I dont want to say which one is better since that is personal, just noting my personal experience and stating where i have based this on (my training years), so people can choose to take that serious or not.
This thread was about the two arts, so i have responded how i feel about them, having practiced them both. I have never said that there was NO difference (see my previous post)

About wines, its a Cabernet by the way and if one has tried wines every week for almost 5 years, i am sure that person has a better view of which is which then someone who never tasted any or alot of wines.

I have a very open mind and came here to discuss the difference between the arts since i am very interested in both, not to be attacked about how i view things myself.


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> i know i'm not a master or in the field for 20 years but i'm sure i can say more about the differences then most people on this forum who just speculate or have information secondhand.



Don't be so certain.

Ninjamom had a post a while back in a thread about kenjutsu. She pointed out that treasury agents are trained to look for forgeries by handling a lot of real bills for a long time. Only then are then allowed to pick up bogus bills. Due to their long experience with things that they know are real, they are able to pick up the differences with something different that most of us can not.

That is the danger of doing two things with only a little time behind us. It may seem that we are looking at the same thing. But a person who really, really knew one of the two subjects might have the differences jump right out at them.

I know that when I first started, things seemed a lot closer to a lot of other arts than they do now.

And then there is the problem of questioning what do we mean by Bujinkan and what do we mean by Toshindo. If you look at the Bujinkan posters, a lot of them seem to have quite different outlooks on the art and how it is done. It is not uncommon for us to get into a screaming match about which way is more correct for doing Bujinkan. 

At the same time, people will acknowledge that Hayes had a huge influence in the way the art was taught in America.

So, are these differences and similarities due to Hayes versus Hatsumi's way of doing things? If Hayes taught one way and Hatsumi another, then the people who learned from Hayes or learned from people who learned from Hayes may be doing things his way while saying that they are following Hatsumi's footsteps. I have seen that type of thing happen.

So if we are talking about Bujinkan, I would say that we need to be looking at the way Hatsumi and his senior students do things and advise us to train. The same goes for Hayes. This makes things very difficult since whenever we get someone who wants to say that they have trained in both, it seems that they have not been around the standard of the art for more than a few hours. What we are left with is people who have trained with a teacher trying to emulate his teacher comparing what he does with another person trying to emulate another teacher. If we think that the standards are the heads of the art themselves, then we can see how these comparisons are flawed from the beggining.

Really, how many people here can say that they have trained with either Hayes or Hatsumi for more than 40 hours in the last year? Those that are honest enough to say they have not should be willing to say they really are not in a position to know what the head of the art is trying to teach and can't make a comparison.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

I agree with you there Don.

but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.
If one would look at the masters then one would need someone who as you said is very close to them and studied with them for a long time closely.
quite unlikely to find someone on a forum like this.

I cannot see it benefits anyone here to say which art is better, they are different, thats the way it is.
We can only discuss how different, in an objective manner.
Wasnt that the purpose of this topic? to see what people think the differences are without shooting at anyone?

I personally think Bujinkan or Budo tai jutsu as well as To-shin do are great, all of them, with all their differences and such.
As i said, they have the same roots and thats whats connects them.

I for one would like more people to say why they specifically chose for what direction and what they feel is different from their own experiences.


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## Carol (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> I agree with you there Don.
> 
> but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.
> If one would look at the masters then one would need someone who as you said is very close to them and studied with them for a long time closely.
> quite unlikely to find someone on a forum like this.



Incorrect.  We  have seasoned masters in many different arts posting here on MartialTalk, including the ninjutsu-related arts, and we are quite honoured to have them spend a bit of their day with us.

Please feel free to take a look around and use the search feature if need be....and be careful about making quick assumptions.  :asian:


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> but i thought this thread was how people who train these forms perceive things from their own experiences.



Ask five blind men to describe an elephant...........

And Bydand seems to have had a change of heart about this thread.

FYI- I have been training in Japan- occasionally with Hatsumi, for over a decade. So I tend to look at stuff by Hayes like the bit he did for the discovery channel with the viewpoint of what Hatsumi has been teaching. I really do not want to get into a discussion over who is better able to make judgements and statements even so.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

thanks for pointing that out Carol, that is good to know!

appricate your comments Don, i know this is a touchy subject but it doesnt have to be..
Opinions are personal anyway so if we have to descibe the "elephant" obviously they will differ.
Its just interesting how people who train in here To-shin do perceive their studies, as looking at the videos in the links. Makes it easier for people to see what people are talking about.

Its very good also to get your comments, haveing trained with Dr. Hatsumi and thus being able to discern what Mr Hayes is Doing /trying to get across or even alter.


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## bydand (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> Wasnt that the purpose of this topic? to see what people think the differences are without shooting at anyone?



Actually no it wasn't the topic.  The topic as plainly stated in the opening post was to look at the similarities of the arts.  Enough has been hammered about the differences elsewhere.  We all know they are different arts, we all know To-Shin Do is a splinter off of the main "tree" of the Bujinkan.  given that, there are bound to be elements that are close. Like the simplicity of the movements at first glance, then the deeper understanding of how even tiny changes in those "simple" movements leads to something totally different happening.  That is what I was looking for.



> I personally think Bujinkan or Budo tai jutsu as well as To-shin do are great, all of them, with all their differences and such.
> As i said, they have the same roots and thats whats connects them.
> 
> I for one would like more people to say why they specifically chose for what direction and what they feel is different from their own experiences.



I would agree with this as well.  As long as it doesn't turn into a P&M match.  I for one had the choice made *for* me.  The school I was with followed SKH when he went To-Shin Do and away from the Bujinkan.  There were no other Bujinkan school within 6 or 8 hours from my location at the time, and I was just married and starting my own family.  I wasn't going to pack up the family and move to an area I didn't like to begin with to follow training in a specfic art when the Instructors I knew and trusted were still the same people and didn't change a darn thing in our training routine.  Do I regret the change?  Honestly, sometimes I do. My dream has always been to go to Japan and take in a few classes from Hatsumi and his top level instructors; with the break, I don't feel as if that will ever come to pass.  I respect the art, and more specifically, the man enough that without an active membership in the Bujinkan I wouldn't be pompous or crude enough to expect to be allowed that honor because my art is "Close" or "Shares a common root".  I wish the tie to Hatsumi Soke hadn't been cut, but am in no position to heal, or mend that wound.  I am in a spot (as we all are) to try to maintain positive relationships with those who I still consider brothers and sisters in the art.  Do we do things the same right down the line still?  No.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

Bydand, why couldnt you train with DR Hatsumi in Japan?
Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..
But i do see how you feel about it, i sometimes feel the same but same story about the dojo being close to home.

And apologies for stating the differences where you would rather look at the similarities. good point.


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## bydand (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> Bydand, why couldnt you train with DR Hatsumi in Japan?
> Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..
> But i do see how you feel about it, i sometimes feel the same but same story about the dojo being close to home.
> 
> And apologies for stating the differences where you would rather look at the similarities. good point.



Comes down to needing a current Bujinkan card to train there, and I don't have one and haven't for many years.  I wouldn't try to get one at this juncture for the simple reason it wouldn't be "right" because I don't train with the Bujinkan anymore.  I may be old fashioned, but it would go against my nature to obtain one just to go there to train a few classes, I would feel like a fraud the whole time I held it.  Plus I figure, by the time I get to a position where I COULD afford to do such a trip, it may no longer be required. 

I'm not even going to touch the topic of SKH still training with Hatsumi Soke, and hope nobody else does either.  It is not the topic of this thread and should be addressed elsewhere if anybody wants to open that bees nest.


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## Don Roley (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda said:


> Mr Hayes still trains with him even though he has gone his own direction..



Oh gawd, everybody duck.

Please maccuda. Before you make statements like this, could you *please* look through some of the old threads and see what has been going on before you open up another can of worms?

Here is the Reader's Digest version.

Hayes has showed up for one training session every few years. He has made the trip to Japan, but only showed up at training once and did something else the rest of the time. The last time he showed up he was asked to go somewhere out of the general public eye by Hatsumi. Things did not go well there from what I hear. A few weeks later Hayes gave a glowing account of his training there on the internet and when hearing this, Hatsumi took the unprecented move of having his name publically taken down from the board of tenth dans that represent Bujinkan.

If you can add to this story with documented facts, please do so. But we have seen a lot of flame wars led by people that try to deny these basic facts without actually going to Hatsumi or anyone in Japan to see if what the thought went on actually did. We do not need more of the same.

If you want to avoid a problem and really can't back up what you say with well established accounts, please just let this matter go in this thread and in the future.

Edit- while I was tying this Bydand wrote,



> I'm not even going to touch the topic of SKH still training with Hatsumi Soke, and hope nobody else does either. It is not the topic of this thread and should be addressed elsewhere if anybody wants to open that bees nest.



and I agree. I want to point out that what you wrote was wrong. There are other threads if you want to deal with this matter. I hope you will take the time to look things up and let sleeping dogs lie.


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## saru1968 (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda, how simular do you see the seperate training of 'classical Ninjutsu' in Toshindo to your prior Bujinkan training?

Have you just graded in Toshindo or do you gain grades in both Toshindo & 'classical ninjutsu' and this Bujinkan grades?

How difficult is this to administer?

Its sounds confusing to me but i've never got a clear understanding about it.

Thanks.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

hmm thats not what i'm heard Don but you are right, lets not go there.

lets get back to the Similarities in the systems!


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## bydand (Feb 22, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> And Bydand seems to have had a change of heart about this thread.



Not really.  Still wish it had faded into the mists of old threads, but it just keeps popping back up.  :idunno:

As long as it does so, I'll be following it and hoping it keeps civil and ontrack.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

Saru,

you just grade in 1, the To-shin do system
there is some "classical" ninjutsu in it but thats not the primary concern.
Thats more for people who are interested in that part.
And how would you class classical ninjutsu? 12th century or 16th or 18th?

Basically you train the To-shin do system so thats where you grade in, this has nothing to do with Bujinkan grades.

The classical ninjutsu training we get is quite similar if not the same as in the Bujinkan, at least in my school and very interesting.

hope this makes sense?


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## bydand (Feb 22, 2007)

maccuda, if you don't mind me asking? Which school do you train in?  Sounds like we share a very similier path in this art.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

Yes no problem Bydand, i currently train in the Nothants quest dojo in the UK
and yesh its should be similar if they are both To-shin do..


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## saru1968 (Feb 22, 2007)

Thats what confuses me....

I get mixed messages when i ask.

I've asked the Uk guy of Toshindo Mr Arthur and he tells me its seperate ie...

One lesson Toshindo, with grading in Toshindo. 

Another 'classical ninjutsu' lesson with the option to gain Offical Bujinkan ranking.

I ask if there was cross over levels, ie learn 'X' amount in Toshindo equals 'X' grade in Bujinkan.

He quoted an American Toshindo website as 3rd Dan Bujinkan = 1st Dan Toshindo.

I could not follow how that works, it sounded so confusing..and still is.

Everyone else i have spoke too does not seem to know this system he talks of.

But if Toshindo is taught the way you say how does a student gain rank in Bujinkan then and moreso how do they get manage the yearly Bujinkan membership and Bujinkan grade fees.

This is not intended to cause problems its i've been looking for an answer on this for the past 18 months and its nice to have to conversation to understand the situation better.

I suppose to me it just makes sense to train in X art to rank in that art rather than train in X art to grade in X & Y.

cheers

Gary.


EDIT..BTW if you want to take this to PM in case its sidelining the thread please do.


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## maccuda (Feb 22, 2007)

well its still under the umbrella of Toshindo isnt it so i guess we can discuss this openly.

My experience is that you train in To-shin do, thats what you grade in and nothing else.

What is the case however is that if you have previous knowledge that will give you an advance and you pick things up alot quicker thus advance quicker.
I was offered a higher belt when i started because of my Bujinkan history.
It does make sense but i think as you said one art is one art.

If i practice kickboxing and then go to karate, does that make me a higher belt there? No, you will have better understanding, thus advancing faster but i dont think it should be interchangable since they are different arts.

It was never mentioned to me that i could exchange my grade in To-shin do to a Bujinkan one, and i personally feel those 2 should be seprerate.


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## lalom (Feb 22, 2007)

saru1968 said:


> Thats what confuses me....
> 
> I get mixed messages when i ask.
> 
> ...


 
Saru,

You will get your answer directly if you visit www.carolinabujindo.com/forum.  The thread answering your question is called "Ranking in Bujinkan?"

This is a To-Shin Do only forum for discussion of To-Shin Do.  The question you raise was asked and answered.  You can train in To-Shin Do curriculum and receive Bujinkan certification if one prefers it in lieu of a To-Shin Do one.  Why one would do that?  Have no clue.


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## saru1968 (Feb 22, 2007)

This will be my last post on the subject unless i need to repeond to something as i mention in my prior post 'pm' would have been more appropriate.

Yes, that was the thread Mr Arthur referenced to to and did not favours in promoting positive attitudes between Toshindo & Bujinkan by quoting the Toshindo Shodan equals Bujinkan Sandan.

I already thought i knew the answer and the issue was just being clouded by his posts, which was simply that to be graded in Bujinkan you needed a Bujinkan membership not just the grading fee for the certificate, but its old news now.

I'm also very grateful for the likes of Toshindo students, byland who are a shining example of how to conduct themselves.

But i totally agree with you post want to grade in Bujinkan then train Bujinkan, want to grade in Toshindo then train in Toshindo.

anyhow no more need be discusssed.


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## SKB (Feb 22, 2007)

I must of missed something here?????? Did this thread not start out with the idea of talking about things which are the same???? I must of misunderstood........................



> If you want to avoid a problem and really can't back up what you say with well established accounts, please just let this matter go in this thread and in the future.


 
Mr. Roley, you witnessed all of this? You were physicaly there and seen these things with your own eyes. Mr. Hatsumi spoke into your ear and told you what was going on? Where is your 'back up' for any of what you write?



> I'm also very grateful for the likes of Toshindo students, byland who are a shining example of how to conduct themselves.


 
How are the Toshindo students supposed to conduct themselves? Like the other folks on what is supposed to be a thread discussing Toshindo? You must be kidding me!!!! I'll go back to something I said in another posting, since folks like to referance past postings, why do some people even read these threads???? Every thread seems to be driven by certain folks to the same end......... Toshindo is not real, Mr. Hayes makes stuff up and if you are not learning Bujinkan you are not learning the 'real' stuff!!!!

I am begining to see why TSD students are few and far between on here! Maybe the heading should be 'The haters of TSD'? 

I got one more question for you guys and it has to do with what is the same between the two concepts......... what was the Bujinkan called before it was called the Bujinkan???? Guess what..... Mr. Hatsumi did not always call it the Bujinkan!!! So both To Shin Do and Bujinkan seem to have come from a 'art' and both now have names diffrent from the original art!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

So maybe a few people need to take a diffrent look at the situation? I know what comes next......... I get told I aint playing nice with the other kids and I should not post on here any more or maybe I should suck up to you guys like other folks? Maybe at some point there can be a discussion on here that is productive??????? These threads are supposed to be about To Shin Do and not for or against To Shin Do right????


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## Don Roley (Feb 23, 2007)

SKB said:


> Mr. Roley, you witnessed all of this? You were physicaly there and seen these things with your own eyes. Mr. Hatsumi spoke into your ear and told you what was going on? Where is your 'back up' for any of what you write?



I first heard the account from the person who was ordered by Hatsumi to take down his name. I also heard the reasons from him. Since then, I have spoken with a few people who started training with Hatsumi before Hayes was a student but still train with Hatsumi on a weekly basis and they backed up the story.

If you want a check up for on what I say, come to Japan, talk to Hatsumi or anyone allowed by him to teach in the honbu dojo of the Bujinkan. I have 100 percent confidence in the fact that they will back up what I say. I really, really doubt you have the courage to back up your postings here with an honest search for the truth with the source of ordering Hayes name striken from those allowed to represent the Bujinkan.

Go ahead. Try to confirm or deny what I pass on by going to the source instead of flaming me from behind the comfort of your computer. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I will point out that you failed to even try seeking out the truth if you try to dispute this in the future. Considered yourself owned from here on out.


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## bydand (Feb 23, 2007)

SKB said:


> How are the Toshindo students supposed to conduct themselves? Like the other folks on what is supposed to be a thread discussing Toshindo? You must be kidding me!!!!




How are we supposed to conduct ourselves?  Not like an ***, that is for sure.  And not like SKH is a demi-God who is above reproach of any kind.  I love To-Shin Do, I like what it does for me, I like the instructors I've met, and I like the skill sets taught.  I do not like the defensive attitude we tend to take whenever something is said against it.  Come on now, we are adults here, we should act accordingly.  Does it matter if SKH still has his name on the 10th Dan board in Japan?  He has gone his own way, which is different than that which is in Japan, different enough *he* called it a different name and calls himself An-Shu which if I remember right is the founder of an art. That doesn't distract from the simple fact we chose to train in his system.  Would you argue with somebody because they drive a city bus for a living and you think driving a cab is better, or worse? No, that doesn't even make sense, why argue about what art somebody chooses to practice?  Nobody so far has said Bujinkan is better than To-Shin Do on this particular thread, why play that card?  They have said it is different, which is true.  Choices.  

I'm 43 years old, I happen to see both sides of this coin, the good and the bad.  I do NOT expect to be held up as an example of actions.  I don't even want to be.  What I wanted to see is a bit of a working relationship fostered between two arts that are very, very close; but NOT THE SAME.  I guess I was wrong.  For that I amm truely sorry for even bringing this thread to life, I guess the wounds are still too fresh, and there are too many standing by ready to rub salt in them instead of salve.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 23, 2007)

*Attention all users*

*Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MT Moderator-
*


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## jks9199 (Feb 23, 2007)

bydand said:


> How are we supposed to conduct ourselves?  Not like an ***, that is for sure.  And not like SKH is a demi-God who is above reproach of any kind.  I love To-Shin Do, I like what it does for me, I like the instructors I've met, and I like the skill sets taught.  I do not like the defensive attitude we tend to take whenever something is said against it.  Come on now, we are adults here, we should act accordingly.  Does it matter if SKH still has his name on the 10th Dan board in Japan?  He has gone his own way, which is different than that which is in Japan, different enough *he* called it a different name and calls himself An-Shu which if I remember right is the founder of an art. That doesn't distract from the simple fact we chose to train in his system.  Would you argue with somebody because they drive a city bus for a living and you think driving a cab is better, or worse? No, that doesn't even make sense, why argue about what art somebody chooses to practice?  Nobody so far has said Bujinkan is better than To-Shin Do on this particular thread, why play that card?  They have said it is different, which is true.  Choices.
> 
> I'm 43 years old, I happen to see both sides of this coin, the good and the bad.  I do NOT expect to be held up as an example of actions.  I don't even want to be.  What I wanted to see is a bit of a working relationship fostered between two arts that are very, very close; but NOT THE SAME.  I guess I was wrong.  For that I amm truely sorry for even bringing this thread to life, I guess the wounds are still too fresh, and there are too many standing by ready to rub salt in them instead of salve.



According to Hayes's own websites, An-shu is something like "retreat leader".  I was curious a few months back and chased down the answer.

Personally -- I think that since he's chosen to go a different direction with his art and his teaching, it was only appropriate that he give it a new name, and make the break.  From what I've seen in various videos of Bujinkan and Toshindo practitioners, I think there's a different feel between the two programs, maybe comparable to getting the same dish at two different Chinese restaurants.  Each is recognizably from the same idea -- but each chef executes it slightly differently.

On this forum, I think there are some passionate practitioners of both styles -- and their passion sometimes interferes with a discussion of the styles.


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## lalom (Feb 23, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I first heard the account from the person who was ordered by Hatsumi to take down his name. I also heard the reasons from him. Since then, I have spoken with a few people who started training with Hatsumi before Hayes was a student but still train with Hatsumi on a weekly basis and they backed up the story.
> 
> If you want a check up for on what I say, come to Japan, talk to Hatsumi or anyone allowed by him to teach in the honbu dojo of the Bujinkan. I have 100 percent confidence in the fact that they will back up what I say. I really, really doubt you have the courage to back up your postings here with an honest search for the truth with the source of ordering Hayes name striken from those allowed to represent the Bujinkan.
> 
> Go ahead. Try to confirm or deny what I pass on by going to the source instead of flaming me from behind the comfort of your computer. I dare you. I double dog dare you. And I will point out that you failed to even try seeking out the truth if you try to dispute this in the future. Considered yourself owned from here on out.


 
Mr. Roley can you please stop?!  This thread isn't about the things you are insisting be noted by To-Shin Do folks.  You aren't helping here!  

SKB, you aren't helping either!  You can't come on here and just blantantly say things that you well know will antagonize others that have agendas.  Neither you nor Mr. Roley's statements are anything but heresay.  You nor Mr. Roley were there so it doesn't need to be discussed here.  Let it die already.

The point of this thread is what do To-Shin Do and Bujinkan arts have in common?  NOT why did SKH's name get taken down or why isn't he a part of the Bujinkan?  Perhaps what the two separate arts have in common is that they both have practitioners that aren't mature enough to ignore dumb stuff!  Which I guess that makes me now that I rambled this way ... heh heh Sorry everybody.

Perhaps this thread should be closed.  It's going nowhere thanks to some immature who try and impose their agenda and others too immature to ignore it.


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## stone_dragone (Feb 23, 2007)

message deleted by author for pointlessness


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## Don Roley (Feb 23, 2007)

lalom said:


> Neither you nor Mr. Roley's statements are anything but heresay.  You nor Mr. Roley were there so it doesn't need to be discussed here.



Just a point- I can state as a fact that his name was taken down and was in a drawer for a short while. The person who took down the name said he threw it away as ordered, but someone else rescued it from the rubbish bin. It was later thrown out when a Toshindo practicioner tried to make a deal out of the fact it had not been thrown out on another message board.

So it is not hearsay when I say that I saw the perfectly intact plate with Hayes name on it and it is not on the name board. Nor is it hearsay when I say that the name is not hanging on the wall of the honbu. And if anyone really doubts anything about the matter, come to Japan and ask the guy who ordered it taken down.

This thread is about something else and we should move on.


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## SKB (Feb 23, 2007)

Well I've seen enough! Have fun!!!!!


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## Fallen Ninja (Feb 24, 2007)

To-Shin Do is not Bujinkan. Is it better? Well many would say yes and some would say no. The real question is... is it better for you? Why do people ramble on and on about similarities and differences.You don't see really other arts trying to do this do you? I really don't care if Don Roley has an agenda against An-Shu Hayes nor do I care if some seem to take pleasure in showing how their way is the only way (Toshindo or Bujinkan). I know that Bydand has stated a few times that he would rather train in the Bujinkan but for distance and convienence he trains in Toshindo. So he is trying to find a connection. Bydand I can see what you were trying to do but it will never work.
Those in the Bujinkan should go back to your forums far far away, and discuss why maybe women aren't that popular in the art. And those in To-Shin Do should talk about how good Mr. Norris has become and the new things that are coming out of Hombu right now.
And for those that do both... (like me) just enjoy both the differences and the similarities.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

Fallen Ninja said:


> To-Shin Do is not Bujinkan. Is it better? Well many would say yes and some would say no. The real question is... is it better for you? Why do people ramble on and on about similarities and differences.You don't see really other arts trying to do this do you? I really don't care if Don Roley has an agenda against An-Shu Hayes nor do I care if some seem to take pleasure in showing how their way is the only way (Toshindo or Bujinkan). I know that Bydand has stated a few times that he would rather train in the Bujinkan but for distance and convienence he trains in Toshindo. So he is trying to find a connection. Bydand I can see what you were trying to do but it will never work.
> Those in the Bujinkan should go back to your forums far far away, and discuss why maybe women aren't that popular in the art. And those in To-Shin Do should talk about how good Mr. Norris has become and the new things that are coming out of Hombu right now.
> And for those that do both... (like me) just enjoy both the differences and the similarities.



RIGHT ON!!!


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## newtothe dark (Sep 18, 2007)

I was sad to see that there wasn't some higher level mature students who would/could jump in and using the started topic come up with some similarities (spelling????) yes maybe the wounds are still to fresh but they are not our wounds they are our teachers wounds not ours but I guess they transfer, oh well guess I wont get much insite on this thread.
Insert disclaimer here not ment to offend or flame anyone for any reason.


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## Bill Sempf (Sep 18, 2007)

newtothe dark said:


> I was sad to see that there wasn't some higher level mature students who would/could jump in ...


 

You will find that this is a common theme.  I sometimes wish we could start a forum just to homestly talk about similarities and differences and technique and teaching style without a bunch of people coming in and ruining it.  Haven't seen it here yet.

Back to the OP, I have to say that to find a common thread, go back to Ju-Jitsu in its original form.  You will find a basis there for a lot of the Taijutsu.  BJJ and AJJ have changes the art a lot, but when read about/studied the original I thought "Ooooh, so THIS is where Aikido and Ninjutsu and Judo came from!"

Just my $0.02.

S


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## ToShinDoKa (Oct 8, 2007)

> According to Hayes's own websites, An-shu is something like "retreat leader". I was curious a few months back and chased down the answer.



I just wanted to comment on the meaning of Anshu...not saying that the one posted earlier was wrong (especially since that's it's intended meaning on the website, I think), but I also saw a translation defining it as: "ordained" or "hermitage head or owner".

Moving along...

One of the differences I've seen and been told by instructors in To-Shin Do, who at one time or another trained in Bujinkan, was the height of the kamae.  In To-Shin Do basics, I've seen a (while uncannily stable) higher 'henka' of the classical kamae when apply Go Shin Taijutsu for self defense.  Our Bobi no Kamae looks 'substantially' different, too.  

I'd say some similarities I've notice in my limited training has been the uses and meanings of 'shikin haramitsu dai komyo!'  Also, in respecting one's teacher, I see that a lot in both arts.  How 'great' these instructors must by, these 'masters' of the warrior ways, to be able to effortlessly and most of the time unconsciously command such loyalty!  

Too, I've seen an emphasis on the 'shoden' levels of the classical nine in the 'dan' ranks of both styles.

EDIT:  Some of the technique names, have the same names, and look a little different.  In the Earth Stability Curriculum, we use a derivative of 'Yoku-to no Kata' of Koto ryu's 'Shoden' curriculum.  

In the case of many of the 'kihon', they share the same names: (i.e. musha dori, muso dori, ura gyaku, omote gyaku, and ganseki nage), and what's so interesting about these are that from what I've seen on youtube Bujinkan Demos (which are cool as hell I might add) they even LOOK exactly the same.  Is this 'news' for anyone, probably not, but I thought I just outwardly state it in an attempt to contribute to a 'potentially' good topic.



-Scott


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## ArtPhsyc (Oct 16, 2007)

As a fairly new student of To-Shin-Do and having no previous knowledge of the ties to Bunjinkan, this thread is really intriguing.  Scott above me, I have trained with.  I can attest for the slightly higher stance but I don't know about ya'll, but how many times has each of us had our instructor repeat "Bend your knees!" "Lower!" hahaha...ahhhh, I miss the dojo.

Looking forward to more similarities as they come to light.

-John D.


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## ToShinDoKa (Nov 9, 2007)

Yeah John, I remember Mr. Broom stressing the four general taijutsu rules:

"Bend your knees"
"Keep your eyes on the bad guy"
"Move your feet"
"Back straight"

Oh how useful they are...

Also, I've noticed the stress in both organizations to learn the history of the traditions of our arts.  For example, there are many suggested readings for different belt levels in To-Shin Do and almost every book (spefically the piece An-Shu wrote) goes deeper and deeper into different aspects of the history 'shadow warriors', if you will.  

I appreciate this in To-Shin Do, and if it weren't for the 'countless' websites created by Bujinkan members who take their time to write down the history of the nine arts, I would have never been pulled into a love for this ninja lineage anyway.  Unlike a lot of people I've spoken to, I was never really impressed w/ Hollywood's version of the ninja, and I thought of them as cowards.  That also might have been to the fact that during my studies of Tae Kwon Do when they stressed 'Indominable Spirit' or Iaijutsu that rated ninja somewhere 'under the horse' (as one of Master Shimabukuro's book put it).  

I found the hardships and oppression that many of the ninja families endured were horrible, and the domineering government of the time were their 'supposed protectors', but could cut them down where they stood if they, or any lower caste, insulted them.  The fact that the ninja could not only oppose this, but work to formulate the 'scheme of totality' for the benefit of their families and nation AND strike fear into the hearts of their oppressors pulled me in like a fish on a hook!  

So that's one part about both separate arts I'll always appreciate...history, history, HIS-TOR-Y!


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## bydand (Nov 9, 2007)

I also like the strong history element in the arts as well.  Plus one of the huge things I have found to be true in both is the accessibility of the top ranking persons, regardless of your own rank.  Whenever I have a question that my normal Instructor can't answer (usually history) I just swing over and talk to one of the Hombu Shihans.  Or I leave a message and they call right back.  If something strikes me during the day and my own Instructor is out and about, I know I can go to one of the top 6 or 7 in our art and he will show me what I need, no questions, no charge, no judgement.  And will follow up later to see if it helped and if I need any follow up.  It was the same way with the highest Bujinkan members when I was with that organization as well.  Very open, very willing to help even a lowly 8th or 9th Kyu that moved like crap and didn't really even know what to ask.    

I can't answer for another art because I never was that involved in another art.  I trained in a few, but they never made me want to know everything I could about the art (my "fault" because they were legit arts and good instructors.)


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