# Knees and kicking



## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2003)

I have been doing martial arts for 16 years and I have never had a problem with my knees.  As of now, I am experiencing some pain from the shock of jumping or twisting.  I wonder if it caused by doing kicks in the air, or if it could be caused by my new weight lifting program.  My wife said that when I am doing squats, my knees go over my toes.  Like I said, I have been doing martial arts for a long time, also, I'm only 27, I would rather change my lifting then my kicking 

upnorthkyosa


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## Disco (Nov 29, 2003)

I would change lifting in favor of kicking. If your pain is new and so is your lifting........... At the very least, take a break from lifting and see if you relieve the pain. Although you may have to give everything a rest in order to fully recover. In all the lifting I have seen at the really high competition levels, the majority of the guys doing squats all have knee wraps and have had some knee problems. Even in kicking, you can develop knee problems. The body can only take so much abuse and were all different with different levels that we can go to before problems arise, The problem associated with lifting is that you can accelerate the chance of injury because of the extra weight and stress. Remember, pain is the bodies way of saying "knock it off". Hope things improve and you continue with your MA training.:asian:


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## dearnis.com (Nov 29, 2003)

I think your wife nailed it; when the knees go beyond the toes in any action shearing forces on the knee skyrocket.  Watch that the knee doesnt pass the toe, and that the toe and knee track together, and you should be fine.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 29, 2003)

Squats are pretty darned harmful all around.  I know I'm going to get flamed for saying this....

True, they cause great gains in musculature throughout the whole body...but they compromise the back as well as the knees.

I've had three weight trainers in as many years tell me that squats were just awesome and safe if done correctly...and all three are now doing seated leg presses and telling me how injurious squats are.  I'm amazed at how short their memories are.


Steve


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2003)

The problem is that I really like doing squats.  I am jumping higher and kicking harder then I have in years.  Is there a way to do squats that isn't harmful to the knees?  Also, do seated leg presses give the same results as squats?

upnorthkyosa


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 29, 2003)

Seated leg presses might help as much as squats.  I don't know...I think it depends on how much you're lifting. 

Have you considered plyometrics?   



Steve


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2003)

My heavy set for squats is about 300 lbs.  I don't know much about pliometrics.  What I like about squats is that they strengthen alot more then just my legs.  I know that I can put up more on a seated leg press because of that.


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## hardheadjarhead (Nov 29, 2003)

I don't doubt the squats are working for you...but it may end up being at a heavy cost.

The plyometrics can be stressful, but perhaps not as much.  Their benefits are substantiated through research.  I knew a Hapkido jock who was assistant coach for the I.U. tennis team.  He did the plyometrics that they did, and his jump kicks were pretty danged good. 

He couldn't kick much above his hips line because of his hips structure...so he'd kick to the head by _jumping_ so high his foot would reach that level.  It was something to see.  He had one heck of a vertical jump.

The other good thing about plyometrics is the flexibility of the exercises.  You can be very "mission specific" with them.  They also duplicate the activity one is shooting for...jumping, hitting, dodging, whatever.

Back in the sixties and seventies one of my instructor's instructors, Mu Gil Lee, used these exercises specifically to get power in his jumps.  They didn't call them plyometrics...it was just Sang Moo Kwan jumping drills.  He was nicknamed "The Flying Tiger", and he was an incredible jumper.


Regards,


Steve


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## dearnis.com (Nov 30, 2003)

No doubt that weighted squats will help in the short term, but there is always that possibility of even one mis-step in an exercise with no room for error.  For me I'll stick to deadlifts for my heavy lift; the bail-out is much easier.
Try some of the variations on high-rep free squats, watching knee-foot alignment.  Combine that with deadlifts and I think you will see a good combination of power, range of motion, and usable strength.


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## triwahine (Dec 15, 2003)

Squats can be very beneficial if used correctly and in moderation.  Always use a spotter and never let your knees go beyond your toes.  Make sure to keep this alignment the entire time.  Think of it as sitting back into a chair.  To correct your form, put a bench behind you and act as if you are going to sit down.  Use lighter weight and perfect the form.  You will see a differenct.  If you have access to one, use the Smith machine to get your technique down correctly.  Some places may even have a "safety bar" which forces the correct form.  Personally, I go back and forth between squats and leg press.  Yes, I can do more on the leg press, but I have had numerous knee surgeries and need to keep my strength high.  As for deadlifts, make sure you get looked at by a professional before attempting these on your own.  If you don't do them correctly, you could mess up your back.  I've seen it happen.  Enlist the service of a qualified individual.  It will help.  Plyometrics are good, but even better if you don't have knee problems.  These are explosive moves which will help with your jumping and quickness.  Again, use a professional.  Always remember that this are great when done in moderation.  Seek help where help is needed.  Good luck with everything.


Aloha,
:wink1:


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## don bohrer (Dec 15, 2003)

Oh boy... I am having major knee pains also. About 10 days ago after some seriously low bow stance work my knees were killing me that night. My right knee is still bugging me. Kinda feels like the knee cap is speed bumping over something.  Anyway I just got back from an Orthopeadic Doc he encouraged me to strengthen my quads, hamstrings, stretch and go easy. He also prescribed an anti inflamatory med (meloxicam). I thought the stance work was safe and an effective way to build leg strength.   Guess I'll just have to tough it out and train smarter.

don


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## OULobo (Dec 16, 2003)

I could never get squats to work. There was too much restriction from the stablizing muscles of the knee, back and legs. The leg press took those muscles out and focused just on the three main quad areas. Great for definition and impressing people. I remember there always being a contraversy about the effectivness of machines that isolate specific muscles. I remember the premise being that if you use machines that don't require grip or aid grip it defeats the practical purpose. What good is it to have a bicep that can curl 100lbs if your grip can't hold that much. Many people think its just for vanity.


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