# Drills



## Icepick (Jan 11, 2002)

I've been reading Matt Thornton's stuff again, particularly about Alive training vs. Dead (pre-programmed) drills.  While I agree that it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming a "drill master", unable to deal with someone not familiar with the drill, but aren't there some advantages to traditional FMA drills?

Do you guys teach sumbrada, sinawali or the like?  What skills do you feel these develop?


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## Bob (Jan 11, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> *I've been reading Matt Thornton's stuff again, particularly about Alive training vs. Dead (pre-programmed) drills.  While I agree that it is important not to fall into the trap of becoming a "drill master", unable to deal with someone not familiar with the drill, but aren't there some advantages to traditional FMA drills?
> 
> Do you guys teach sumbrada, sinawali or the like?  What skills do you feel these develop? *



In my opinion being a drill master is okay as long as you take that drill and break it down to see where the combat attributes are inside the drill. 
Drills should be done in a progressive manner. First the drill is learned and practiced at slow speed, then moved into a medium speed. At this medium speed level, techniques should be incorporated into the drill. Once this has been practiced and the moves are fluent then increase the speed of the drill as well as changing the range of the drill. 
For ex: Drills such as 5 count and 10 count (names are different in different schools) should be done at combat speed and should be practice with a consistant rhythm and then practice with a broken beat as to counteract any predictability.
Another example: When practicing sinawalis the same progression should take place, get the rhythm down, and increase speed and take techniques from the sinawalis. Or use the practicing of the sinawali, as a chancs to practice half beats. Single sinawali is awesome for this. 
Another example: While doing heaven have one guy defend against it with just a single stick and then go back into to the heaven drill without breaking beat......
Drills have there place in training. They help with timing, breaking of timing, reference points and the biggest benefit they help develop line familiarization. 
Drills should only be part of the whole. They need to be balanced with sparring, or "live training"  
Just my two and half cents..........
Thanks
Bob


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## Black Grass (Jan 11, 2002)

The problem (I feel) is that too much time is spent on pre-set drilling and not enough on sparring. I consider sparring a drill, albeit one with less restistriction. 

Pre-set or patterned drills  (2 man or single) are about developing atrributes. Power, range, speed, finess or a combination of these. And with the right mind set  are excellent training tools. But not the end all be all

Sumbrada or counter for counter, I feel is a good drill for recognizing positions for disarms, blocking or locks in middle range (sometimes close). What it doesn't do particularly well is simulate combat, however most people tend to practice it this way. Also most people it seems,  tend to stay in middle range and stationary. If you move it a whole lot better.Its also a good drill to get the feel of different weapons and how the can be manuevered. I quite like this drill for dos manos(2-handed)

Sinawali, by this i assume you mean 2 man double stick mirror drills. I dislike the way that many practice pre-set double stick drills standing in front of each other. One is better off hitting tires so that power is developed ( and to save sticks). If done while  moving I think this develops a sense of range (particularly long), combining footwork and stick work and also a sense of rythm can be developed. Again what it doesn't do particularly well is simulate combat.

Sangga at patama, or block and hit is good for practicing a given techniques at a control pace and refining it. I believe that some do not pay enough attention to this type of training as the get better givining them up for the fancier 2 man drills. I believe this is a mistake. its like stroking patterns it should be practiced continously.

There are many other types of drill but I just picked some of the more common ones.  I think 2 man pre-set or pattern drills are good but I feel there is too much of a reliance on them in the practice of FMA  here in the west and not enough sparring

Regards,

Black Grass


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## Cthulhu (Jan 11, 2002)

Read IFAJKD's post of the Vunak interview in the JKD forum.  Vunak explains how these drills ended up making him a better fighter.  Good read.

Cthulhu


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## Icepick (Jan 14, 2002)

Here is the Matt Thornton interview that spurred me into thinking about this:

http://www.straightblastgym.com/questions.html

I also got a fascinating answer to the same inquiry by Roy Harris, at his forum:

http://www.royharris.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=236


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## Icepick (Jan 17, 2002)

Black Grass & IFAJKD -

Could you please take a look at the Roy Harris post at this link?

http://www.royharris.com/forum/show...s=&threadid=236

Do you train anything "in-between" pre-set drills and sparring, to develop the ability to maintain a stickfight at mid-range?  I'm starting to train my BJJ instructor, and when we spar, I fear it will turn into largo mano or grappling.  Obviously, this cuts out the majority of Modern Arnis and Balintawak, which thrive in the corto range.  It seems like it depends on the generation of power in a confined space and footwork.  My brief Balintawak training has helped me to swing hard without a long windup, but footwork is a concern.  Any ideas?  I'm going to ask Renegade to work with me tonight, too.  

I don't want to get shown up by the white belt, Kyle!  Could damage my extremely fragile ego.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 17, 2002)

How about sumbrada for medium range training?  With 3 (and I think 5) count, you're close enough to use the live hand, but not quite close enough for punyo strikes to the head.

Cthulhu


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## Icepick (Jan 17, 2002)

Cthulhu -

I like sumbrada a lot, at Tim's school we use the three count and a few variations on the 5.  My question concerns the fact that these drills artificially keep you in my favorite range.  I want to develop the skill to keep someone in that range, even if they don't want to play by the rules of the drill.  Any ideas?  I know it can be done, I've tried to shoot on Manong Ted...bad idea.


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## Cthulhu (Jan 17, 2002)

This may be overly simple, but how about your sumbrada partner keeps backing or zoning away, making you learn how to adjust so as to stay in the desired range?

Cthulhu


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## Icepick (Jan 17, 2002)

I've done that, too, Cthulhu, but you may be on the right track.  Maybe just an increase in intensity?  I'll try it with my partner attempting to shoot when he sees an opening.  Some combination of stepping back and striking/sprawling...probably time to break out some padded sticks.  I want to avoid that question of "did I hit hard enough to stop the shoot".  Anyone worked on this???


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## Cthulhu (Jan 17, 2002)

Here's another idea:  train with your back to a wall or other obstruction.  You can't move away to keep the range, so you _have_ to find a way to keep distance using technique.

Sounds real hard.  Have fun!

Cthulhu


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## bscastro (Jan 17, 2002)

Drills develop speed, accuracy, distance, proper hand positioning, proper stickwork, etc. I think drills have great benefit, but they could also be varied and done with broken rhythm, etc. to make it more practical.

Also, the little things in a drill, such as accuracy of your partner's attack and energy do a lot from making a drill just a bunch of preset movements to a training tool to make one a better fighter, artist, etc.

Bryan


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## Icepick (Jan 17, 2002)

Cthulhu -

Great idea about backing up to the wall!  I've often wished they would hold an NHB event in an elevator.  I think you'd see some interesting results.    

Bryan -

I agree wholeheartedly!  I don't mind working a drill slowly, but if your partner is not focused or drills sloppily, it's both useless and aggravating.


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## Black Grass (Jan 17, 2002)

Sumbrada (counter for counter) I consider an in- between drill . Basically you freely mix up the angles and blocks. After someone has a good bases in sumbrada by the numbers  (like 6 count or 10 count cycles)  you simple just  go one for one and not think in terms of cycles. What I like to do sometimes is pick and angle ( lets say #1) anything my partner does I block and counter with a #1 .Originally sumbrada was free as taught in Serrada, I believe it was Guro Dan who broke it down to specific drills.

How do you stay in middle range if your oppent wants to go into another range? Move! The easiest way to integrate this is by stepping everytime you strike or block forward or back. Lets take 6 count that would mean you step forward 6 time and your partner would  step back 6 time. in the next cycle you reverse. Then you can start going sideways, in circles. But all this time you are still in middle range. The next step is you simple move, either you or your partner iiniating just make sure you stay in middle range.

When you combine free foot work and free stick work then you got yourself a drill!

more later...

Vince


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## bloodwood (Jan 17, 2002)

While we're on the subject of drills here's one I use as a rapid response blocking only drill. It is done at a fast tempo with no time for the student to counter between strikes.
Here's the strike sequence:

1-8-2- abanico R-L-R-L -9-1-12- abanico 1- 12-2

most students have trouble with the abanico blocks and have a tendency to try and block them straight on without twisting and get hit in the sides of the head. they also have problems with the 12- abanico 1 - 12 combination

I believe that Balintawak teachers use this type of drill.

Comments gladly accepted


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## Cthulhu (Jan 17, 2002)

Please take my FMA advice with a grain of salt, folks.  I've only been actively practicing the FMA for a couple of weeks.  However, I make sure not to give advice on stuff I haven't done yet.

I think having a fairly extensive background in an external system allows me to appreciate the simplicity of the FMA system, as I've found many uses for the few things I've been taught so far.  However, I think the FMA lend themselves to this anyway 

Cthulhu


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## thekuntawman (Jan 21, 2002)

it is not right when people say that most philippine martial arts fighters use the drill for there training. the kind of power timing and speed you use for doing the drills is a different kind from what you need in fighting. the philippine martial arts taught in america and europe is very very different from what pilipinos are doing at home. most fighters who focus lots on the fighting part (sparring) dont do them, just like they dont do much of sinawali, yantok at daga, disarmings and other things like that. of course its true that almost every style uses all those things, but the small styles and guys who dont care about having a "complete" system, they usually just have the strikings and combination attacks and counters.

drilling is a different kind of skill. the drill of the "fma" is like the kata of karate. you can have one with or without the other, but being bad or good at one have nothing to do with your skill in the other one.


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## arnisador (Jan 21, 2002)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *most fighters who focus lots on the fighting part (sparring) dont do them, just like they dont do much of sinawali, yantok at daga, disarmings and other things like that. of course its true that almost every style uses all those things, but the small styles and guys who dont care about having a "complete" system, they usually just have the strikings and combination attacks and counters.*



Could you expand on this--people in the Philippines who are actully training for competition and how they do it and what techniques they use?


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## Black Grass (Jan 21, 2002)

The focus in the Philippines is much more getting the basics, conditioning and repeation. It is more like what you find in boxing and/or muay thai. Its more about training then learning. Sparring is key not 2 man drills.


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## Icepick (Jan 21, 2002)

For those interested, another nice article:

http://www.jkdunlimited.com/off2.htm

Black Grass -  When I last attended a Roy Harris BJJ seminar, he explained that free rolling is useful mostly for cardio work.  If we roll to win, we're only practicing the things we are already good at...  Kyle is fond of "drills" where we free grapple, but within limits, e.g. someone takes a top position, we grapple until the guy on the bottom escapes or submits.  I think both Kyle and Roy view this kind of repetition as better for increasing a skill level.  Is that the sort of thing you meant when you said,  "When you combine free foot work and free stick work then you got yourself a drill!"?


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## Black Grass (Jan 22, 2002)

Icepick,

Yes, thats exactly what I meant. To me its the middle range equivalent of long range hands only sparring. You basically take away option to work on something specific.  

However, before you get to this its important to have the basics through technique repeatition. Without this it leads to stick waving and the purpose is lost. And ultimately you want to take those skills and put it back into your sparring.

These type of 2 man drills are for long term development, I believe they won't make you a fighter, but it will make you a better one.

Regards,

Black Grass


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## Icepick (Jan 24, 2002)

The following is a post by "Crafty Dog" Marc Denny, made on the Eskrima-Digest.   www.martialartsresource.com

"in my own training I do both -- the cooperative training thing and fighting. Of course by itself CT can leave you clueless, but if you have fighting as part of your training, then that is not likely. I love being in Guro I's Maphilindo class and find it stimulates my thinking deeply. (The Kali class does have sparring so I don't mention it here) If I passed on it because it was cooperative, I would have much less to bring to a fight. Fighting only leaves one in the danger not only stagnation as a fighter, but of the path coming to an end-- people get stale sometimes if all they do is fight."


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## Kyle (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> *
> I don't want to get shown up by the white belt, Kyle!  Could damage my extremely fragile ego.   *



Heh, the only way that's gonna happen is if you let me!  Now, if I can crash and get a takedown.... 

    - Kyle


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## Kyle (Jan 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> *...Maybe just an increase in intensity? ...probably time to break out some padded sticks.  I want to avoid that question of "did I hit hard enough to stop the shoot".  Anyone worked on this??? *



Seriously, I think it's a matter of working this area.  Strikers who never trained against a grappler who wants to take them down get in big trouble.  I don't think it matters much whether a stick is involved.  A knife helps considerably, but it needs to be trained in any case.

If you make the "sticks" for next time, I'm ready to work it.  BTW, we can work it after class any time, if you can stay.

    - Kyle


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## Icepick (Jan 27, 2002)

Kyle -

I'll hit Home Depot tomorrow, and bring the stuff Tuesday.  Your homework will be to make your own stick.  It'll take you 1/2 hour while watching TV.  

Tim is looking into WEKAF style helmets for us.   I'll bring some stuff to bang next Saturday.  Staying after class during the week is tough, because I don't get home until 11 pm as it is.  

 

And, as you can imagine, if the wife ain't happy, NOBODY'S HAPPY.


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## Dave Fulton (Nov 27, 2002)

I am of the opinion that drills can be very beneficial IF trained correctly and in combination with sparring.

For drills to be beneficial, you must learn the pattern, break the pattern and finally disolve the pattern.  Learning the pattern means paying strict attention to the details and not anticipating the next move.  Breaking the pattern involves increasing the intensity, changing the tempo and inserting disarms, locks and empty hand strikes, kicks, etc.  At the level of disolving the pattern, there is no set pattern, but rather a spontaneous flow that intertwines all of the patterns.  

As you move through the above progression, you need to analyze the strategies and tactics held in the drills and start incorporating them into sparring drills, distance sparring and various levels of contact sparring ... up to full-contact.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Full Contact Martial Arts Association
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


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## lhommedieu (Nov 28, 2002)

One aspect of drills that has not been mentioned is the practice of proper body mechanics.  I well remember thinking that I was getting pretty good at drills, especially when playing with partners at about the same level at my martial arts school.  Just when all the pieces started falling into place, in waltzed a friend of the instructor with considerable experience in the Filipino martial arts.  Within a few seconds of practicing a two-man drill with him, it was obvious that I was feeling something I hadn't felt before.  The guy just didn't do the drill very well - he was in _complete_ control of _all_ aspects at _all_ times.  His advice:  go VERY slow, and treat any drill with the respect it deserves.  This involves breaking it down into all its pieces before speeding it up again.

BTW, this was also a guy with a lot of fighting experience.  Notice that I said "fighting," not "sparring."  Once you can see that any drill (sparring included) is supposed to help you to become a better fighter, you don't need to subscribe to the "drill" vs. "sparring" dichotomy.  They both have their place, and both should be practiced intelligently.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Dave Fulton (Dec 2, 2002)

Yes, body mechanics is definitely one of the "details" that I was refering to.  Because Steve has a background in Pekiti-tirsia (as do I), I am sure that he will back me up when I say that without body mechanics, you will be a complete failure at Break-in/Break-out.  

Although you can learn the things that drills teach through other means (like hitting the tire & sparring), I think that drills are a great way to augment those other methods and can help prepare one for sparring.  I believe that it is the use of a mixture of drills, sparring and the other training tools (like hitting the tire), in addition to the Pekiti-tirsia technology, that has allowed Grand Tuhon Gaje to consistently produce formidable fighters over the years.  

As for distinguishing "sparring" from "fighting", I subscribe to the idea that "sparring" is a laboratory for testing/developing the technology needed for "fighting".  In sparring we're friends/partners, so (in full-contact sparring) I'm trying my best to hit you as hard as I can so that I can test/develop my my technology, while pushing you to do the same.  In "fighting" we're enemies and I'm trying my best to hit you as hard as I can so that I will survive.  In sparring I show my friend/partner compassion, but if fighting for survival I will not be so compassionate.

We had a great sparring session on Saturday, by the way.  We started with hand-sparring, then some single-stick and finally knife (represented by short sticks).  Some fairly nasty wounds and some average ones were inflicted all around, but in the end all had fun and parted as friends once again.

Respectfully,

Dave Fulton

Full Contact Martial Arts Association.
"As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another."


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## lhommedieu (Dec 2, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dave Fulton _
> 
> *Yes, body mechanics is definitely one of the "details" that I was refering to.  Because Steve has a background in Pekiti-tirsia (as do I), I am sure that he will back me up when I say that without body mechanics, you will be a complete failure at Break-in/Break-out. *


*

That's correct - It's tempting to treat Break in/Break-out as a crashing drill when in fact it's much more successful if you time the entry for the moment just after the sticks make contact.  With the correct angling and body mechanics you fall into the slot (i.e., the entry) almost effortlessly (particularly if you're very relaxed) - sometimes it's so fast that you have to pull back hard to keep from hitting your partner with the puno.    

Best,

Steve Lamade*


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## bart (Dec 4, 2002)

Hey There,

Drills are a tough subject especially since a drill has such a slippery definition anyway. In my experience drills have a number of different purposes. Some drills have to do with building musculature or endurance in a specific area. Other drills have the purpose of repetition so as to develop a conditioned response or to make a particular action reflexive. Other drills are to take theories and concepts and put them into action and application. Other drills are meant to be flashy to sell the system to other people and make them want to learn it. 

I think the most important aspect of drills is the mindset into which one goes during the practice of the drill. For example, we do drills in speech and reading. We condition responses when we learn other languages. Drills are very important and very useful if the mindset is the right one.

The one drill set that sticks out in my mind is the "wax on wax off" one from the Karate Kid. It's corny but that drill would build up "muscle memory" and endurance. And as a cheesy side effect, would be doing double time on the effort because the cars were waxed as well. (hmmm...economy of motion?)

Anyway, drills are important for more than one reason and the only pitfall is if the student doesn't understand the point of the drill and work toward that goal.


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## lhommedieu (Dec 29, 2002)

The "Value of Drills" debate is will no doubt be heard on many forums for many years to come.  I came across an old post of mine (on another forum) while I was cleaning out my files and thought I might throw some more blood on the water by posting it here.  Ive amended it slightly to reflect some further thinking on the matter (i.e., to make it less of a rant). 

1. Drilling vs. Sparring 

Full contact stick fighting is a lot of fun and teaches several practical lessons.  Since it can also be very painful, it helps you learn about your own fear in a controlled environment.  Its as close to fighting with weapons as we can get without seriously hurting each other.  For this reason, there are rules that keep both participants from getting seriously hurt.  These include a form of social contract that prohibits you from repeatedly stomping on someones head after youve knocked him unconscious with your rattan stick, for example.  No one ever died from stick sparring - at least not here in the United States.  If that ever happens, it will happen for the same reason that deaths sometimes occur in amateur boxing or collegiate wresting:  the unfortunate result of a freak accident or congenital anatomical defect that no one knew about.    

Its true that many of the drills you see in FMAs do not translate well to full contact stick sparring.  Thats because have very specific purposes, IMHO, that have nothing to do with full contact stick fighting.  The distancing and timing found in many drills that are completely wrong for sparring with rattan sticks, begin to make more sense in the context of avoiding a blow-for-blow exchange with an edged weapon.  Full-Contact stick fighting would look a lot different if the contestants fought with pointed four-foot razors.  Drills, when done properly, are for learning the safest, most conservative and most efficient manner of defending while attacking  not the other way around.  This means you have survival mindset, and not a fighting mindset.   If you doubt me, go to Home Depot and purchase a pair of machetes, sharpen them up, and start sparring. I guarantee that your technique will change drastically, if only from a sense of self-preservation.  For that matter, no one that I know of spars regularly with axe handles, or butter knives either  its far too painful.

2. Drilling and Sparring vs. Fighting

All kidding aside (yes, the machete, axe handle and butter knife information above is intended for information purposes only  please dont do this at home, etc.) - heres an exercise that makes the point:  the next time you spar with sticks, make the rule that the match ends as soon as either party scores a thrust with the tip of the weapon, however lightly, on the torso of his or her opponent.  Those two inches of imaginary steel in the chest just took the life of the aggressor, who may have won the match by crashing in and threw you to the ground - but died  a split second later.  Heres another one (seriously):  take a banana and snip off the end so that the soft part inside is showing.  Use this as you weapon while knife sparring.  As soon as the whistle blows, make it your business to drive that banana as hard and fast as you can into your opponents ribs as many times as you can in 3 seconds, not stopping no matter what he does, unless he drops you to the ground first.  (This drill works best if the guy being attacked doesnt understand any of the rules.) Now imagine that the banana is a 10 butcher knife (or a 6 butter knife), and youll understand why knife sparring may be a valuable drill in some contexts but less valuable in others.  (Note:  if you decide to do this, then keep it to yourself.  I do NOT want to responsible for the potential banana sparring fad that might sweep the nation.)

Consider that no one ever survived a rapier duel in 17th century Italy (or any other epoch where men fought to the death with edged weapons) by rushing in and trying to either strike first or hardest, or the most number of times.  Master duelists from this era were (a) incredibly efficient and (b) incredibly conservative with their movements, and delivered precise techniques that were honed to perfection through constant practice.  Yes, they did drills and practiced their own versions of sparring  but they did these differently then than most people do them today, since they appreciated the real consequences of mistakes in the real world.  

Mindset (or attitude) is the single most important attribute necessary for surviving a violent encounter.  No amount of drills or sparring will ever prepare you for someone who is dead-set on crippling or killing you, since you cant train to fight like this in this society.  The best you can ever hope for is a 50-50 chance of survival.  If 2% of the attributes you learned doing drills come out and that makes you a split second faster than the other guy, then that may have made the difference between surviving or not surviving. That means that the drills that you do should be plain, basic, fundamental.  They boil down to:  how do I stop his weapon from hitting me, and how do I stop him from swinging it again.  In the context of surviving an edged weapon encounter, the thousand hours that youve spent working on a drill will usually come down to who gets there first with the most (without getting killed in the process).  Edged weapon encounters are bloody, ugly, and messy.  For this reason, the best drills are the most basic and practical ones.  

Finally, let me point out that training for street fights is idiotic and delusional, if not downright criminal.  Those who find themselves in street fights almost always go looking for them.  Furthermore a street fight is a far cry from an ambush, in which someone has almost always calculated how far he or shere willing to go to hurt you, and have stacked the odds greatly in their favor.  For my money, edged weapons are not the first tools Id reach for to counter such an assault.  Theyre a second-choice at best, if nothing else is around.    If youre serious about learning how to defend your life or the lives of your loved ones, get a gun permit and learn how to shoot in the most efficient and practical way possible  there are scores of schools that can teach this.  Just keep in mind that this martial art is just as hard as any other, and requires the same level of commitment.  (Consider, for example, the thousands of hours you must spend drilling to get a consistent sight picture.) 



Respectfully,


Steve Lamade
San Miguel Eskrima


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