# Black Belt/Sash/Rank at a young age...



## Blaze Dragon (Feb 27, 2014)

So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.

I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.

Now this makes me want to tell a story and have a conversation about this. When I use to do TKD, one of the students was like 14 or so and had his black belt. His parents moved so him and his brother had to go to a different school. They found one, but in order to maintain there rank there new teacher needed to test them. His younger brother was...hmmm I don't know purple or brown belt. Regardless the instructor tested him and let him keep his belt. This other student being a black belt and young didn't seem to fit for the teacher. Because the teacher test him and then sparred him. The kid was able to beat the instructor which seemed to fustrate him since he made him spar him 3 more times or so before he reluctantly agreed to let him keep his rank.

Now I tell my story since this teacher shared in the idea that you have to be a certain age for your black belt...

now the topics I would like to hear opinions on..

How young is too young?
Why does age matter? Should it not be based on skill?

on the flip side...
How well can a young kid learn martial arts. I mean lets consider self defense, a child learning self defense will react differently to an adult attacker then a child who is a full grown teen.


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## drop bear (Feb 27, 2014)

We have thrown 14 year olds in the ring. They do all right.

There was a  fighter Tyler manowara who turned pro  under 18 years.


14 year old girl fighting full contact.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SS7JKZez0Uk

What was that black belt issue again?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 27, 2014)

Really depends on the school and what the belt represents *at that school*.

Or within a particular organization.

Two people from two different arts can train consistently and train well in their respective arts for five years, with one being a black belt and the other still a colored belt.  Each belt represents a different point in that art's training.  

Some organizations/schools have five year old black belts.  Some won't issue them until the student is of majority age.  So long as the grading policy is consistent within itself, and so long as outlandish claims are not being made about what a black belt can do, I don't see it as an issue.

Now if an adult student is in a class with a five year old black belt, the issue isn't why the kid has the belt, but why an adult and a five year old are in the same class.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2014)

It's a topic that comes up frequently around here...

I don't believe in baby black belts. The youngest Dan rank I've seen awarded in our system was a 17 year old girl. She started with this school before I did and I asked her tonight how long ago that was. She was 5 when she started.

I don't think that kids have the maturity or the real understanding of the Art to achieve Dan rank. I also think there are exceptions, but as a general rule, I think 18 is a fair guideline. 

I was 13 when I got my first 1st Dan, and I don't think I had the maturity or real understanding for the rank.


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## TKDTony2179 (Feb 28, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Really depends on the school and what the belt represents *at that school*.
> 
> Or within a particular organization.
> 
> ...



Well, I will say this from first hand experience that when you are in a small town, you don't have the option to have an adult class and kid class. Sometimes the best you can do is to have different classes for different ranks but you will still have different age groups with in the class.  My instructor has done that for yrs. The school I am running now I will have to do the samething because we don't have a large group of 5 yr old being in our schools. 

Do adults like this? Not the ones that acturally take class but I think they understand. (You can tell by the look on their face) For other adults it don't matter to them cause they take with their child anyways. 

A kid that is 5 yrs old that have a black belt to me would look like he is dressed up for holloween because it looks more like a reward for him and I know he can't do what I can do and it doesn't bother me at all.


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## TKDTony2179 (Feb 28, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.
> 
> I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.
> 
> ...



I use to think that a black belt was a person that could showscase high level of skill and proficiency in an art. Which it still does but Ihave learned that it means a lot more to other people.  At the end of the day, the belt is just ahigh rank certificate. When you leave the school you attend it doesn&#8217;t matterif you are a black belt. Most people do I think skill is just as important as thematurity part. I live in place where dads take their son out in cold morning towait for a deer to show up so they can shoot it. I have seen ill girls on linetaken apart a gun and then putting it back together  and will show you that it work.  They learn a skill and learn to be responsibleon how to use a gun. 
With that being said I think a kid can learn how to beresponsible and learn a set of skills. Not every kid should get a black belt. Ihave seen kids fail numerous of time for testing.  So as long as the school if being honest withthemselves I see no problem. 
I would assume that is the reason Kano made a belt systemanyway.  Start a curriculum 

Now for the tough question, how old or young can one obtain a black belt? Either 9 or 10yrs old.   Our hand book says you have to be 13 before 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] degree and 21 before you can test for 4[SUP]th[/SUP]. Now there is a big gap.  I know a lot of people are going to disagree with that but as long as I have been in this art under this org it do seems right that a young person is rewarded 1[SUP]st[/SUP] dan because at that part the saying of &#8220;Now this where your training begins&#8221; kind of hold true because they get to refine the things they are not good at.  Like I always said, there are some adults that shouldn&#8217;t have a belt as well.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 28, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> Well, I will say this from first hand experience that when you are in a small town, you don't have the option to have an adult class and kid class. Sometimes the best you can do is to have different classes for different ranks but you will still have different age groups with in the class.  My instructor has done that for yrs. The school I am running now I will have to do the samething because we don't have a large group of 5 yr old being in our schools.
> 
> Do adults like this? Not the ones that acturally take class but I think they understand. (You can tell by the look on their face) For other adults it don't matter to them cause they take with their child anyways.
> 
> A kid that is 5 yrs old that have a black belt to me would look like he is dressed up for holloween because it looks more like a reward for him and I know he can't do what I can do and it doesn't bother me at all.


As I said, if an adult student is in a class with a five year old black belt, the issue isn't why the kid has the belt, but* why *an adult and a five year old are in the same class.  There is always a reason.  It may be a good, or at least practical reason; in your case, you don't have the option to do it differently.  Though that really kind of turns an adult class into a family class.  No value assessment, by the way.  

I was in your position at a school where I used to teach.  We had a mix of kids and adults.  We did the best we could and I'd like to think that we made it work.  I kept the kids together and the teens & adults together, so it was essentially me running two classes simultaneously.  I took the opportunity to pair the kids with adults on occasion so that we could work on strategies for them to deal with adult predators.  Of course, one child with a class full of adults is a challenge.  You do what you can.

In any case, the black belt on a kid is fine with me so long as the belt is not touted as some kind of mystical entrance into the mythical Chanbara fighting secrets (and that is regardless of the age of the belt holder) or some kind of equivalent to Popeye's spinach.  So long as the grading policy is consistent within itself in a school/organization, it works for me.  It did not a few years back (if you had read any of my posts six years ago, you'd see that my opinion on this has shifted over the years), but after a lot of thought and being challenged in my views by people with fairly compelling arguments, my views shifted on the subject.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 28, 2014)

As others have said, it comes down to what a black belt (or any rank) means in your system.  Does it mean that you have memorized a particular series of patterns and can perform them with a certain level of skill?  Does it mean you have a certain degree of actual fighting ability?  Does it mean you have the maturity to live your life according to a certain set of ideals?  Once you have declared what the rank means, it clarifies whether someone of a certain age is likely to be able to meet those requirements.  Personally I'm in favor of awarding rank based on how an individual meets the actual requirements rather than setting an arbitrary cut-off age.

In BJJ, there's a separate system of belts (white through green) for kids under the age of 16.  My instructor recently awarded a blue belt (adult rank) to a young man who is only 15 years old.  This individual had been training and grappling with adults for a couple of years, is able to match other adult blue belts in sparring, and displays excellent maturity for his age.  Given all that, my teacher didn't see the need to make him wait an extra year to be promoted.

Getting back to the original story, I would be a little concerned about going to a teacher who couldn't beat a 14-year old in sparring.  Unless the instructor was really getting up there in years or the student was some sort of phenom, that might be a warning flag.  Then again, I'm in an art where instructors are expected to roll with their students on a regular basis, so that may affect my viewpoint.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 28, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> At the end of the day, the belt is just a high rank certificate.


In many cases, it isn't even that.  In KKW TKD, for example, it is simply a beginning degree.  I've seen the sentiment expressed almost universally that a black belt is just the beginning.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 28, 2014)

At one time you had to be a bad *** to have a black belt no one would mess with you. Now you can find someone in every community that knows or has a child black belt.  And yet we wonder wonder why the majority of people think little of someone who claims to have a black belt.   A five year old black belt  not in my school.
Heck I knew an instructor who made himself a Grandmaster and promoted his 13 year old son to 5th degree so that if anything happened to him his son would inherit the school.  Did the kid have the knowledge , well maybe in that school but not in any other that I know of.
Yes, we all have our own idea of what is required to be a black belt but really dose the five year old have the knowledge to pass on the art and explain techniques and history.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 28, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Yes, we all have our own idea of what is required to be a black belt but really dose the five year old have the knowledge to pass on the art and explain techniques and history.



Unlikely, but a first degree black belt is hardly expected to be passing the art on or to explain history.  A first dan has not learned anywhere near the entire system in most arts that use the rank.  

Though they should be able to explain techniques from the colored belt levels.  Not because of some sort of expectation that they teach, but because they are looked at as seniors to those with colored belts and colored belts expect that their fellow student with the black belt can clarify/lead the drill when serving as a partner.

Also, even in schools with fairly unsophisticated requirements for a black belt, the black belt means at the very least that the student has learned the full basic curriculum.  A sharp five year old could potentially be able to demonstrate all of what he or she has learned on command.  But they are unlikely to be able to explain it to another student (prodigies not withstanding).


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 28, 2014)

I think that is one thing that bothers me. People who become black belts because they paid for it. Many schools have a deal, you pay and come and you will get promoted. It's about time spent and the ability to remember forms. How many schools break this mold? Are there schools out there where you also have to have ability, skill, and aptitude? I know it seems to be more the case once someone hits black belt. In fact I don't think many people ever obtain black belt, I don't know what the numbers are but I imagine less then 10% of students will see there black belt and less then 5% of that will see there 5th in any given system. Random numbers, nothing etched in stone but is the picture I have.

Still thinking back to some of the old schools I would check out and seeing the skill level of some of the students. I think if the school is doing a good training method and the students are dedicated, they will grow in skill as they do in rank.

I just wonder, what makes the next rank worth it?


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## geezer (Feb 28, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In many cases, it isn't even that.  In KKW TKD, for example, it is simply a beginning degree.  I've seen the sentiment expressed almost universally that a black belt is just the beginning.



I hear this a lot, and I have to disagree. In some TKD organizations this _might_ be true. Or  more especially in a school where they routinely give _little kids_ an adult BB rank. In other systems, the BB or it's equivalent implies real achievement and proficiency( BJJ?).  Sure there's still a long way to go to  true mastery but by BB you're more of a journeyman and definitely not a beginner.

In the art I study, You put in a good many years to achieve the BB equivalent and only a very, very few ever achieve 5th level or higher. After a certain point it's an issue of ability as much as knowledge and years.  Honestly, I probably never will make "master", even with decades working at it.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 28, 2014)

geezer said:


> I hear this a lot, and I have to disagree. In some TKD organizations this _might_ be true. Or more especially in a school where they routinely give _little kids_ an adult BB rank. In other systems, the BB or it's equivalent implies real achievement and proficiency( BJJ?). Sure there's still a long way to go to true mastery but by BB you're more of a journeyman and definitely not a beginner.
> 
> In the art I study, You put in a good many years to achieve the BB equivalent and only a very, very few ever achieve 5th level or higher. After a certain point it's an issue of ability as much as knowledge and years. Honestly, I probably never will make "master", even with decades working at it.



Ability is a big factor, but so is knowledge, true understanding, and the ability to pass on that knowledge. We have a student who is 70 years old. She just got promoted to 2nd geup. She can't kick much above her own waist, but for her rank she's got a good understanding of the material she's been taught, and she's good at teaching, especially with the younger students. Would I hesitate to promote her to 1st Dan when the time comes? Nope. Not if she continues to work the way she has so far.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We have thrown 14 year olds in the ring. They do all right.
> 
> There was a  fighter Tyler manowara who turned pro  under 18 years.
> 
> ...



Bad parenting there.  Letting a 14 year old full contact fight is borderline child abuse.  with all the data coming out about brain injuries and allowing a 14 yr old take multiple blows to the head like that is stupid.


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## Takai (Mar 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Bad parenting there.  Letting a 14 year old full contact fight is borderline child abuse.  with all the data coming out about brain injuries and allowing a 14 yr old take multiple blows to the head like that is stupid.



As a parent who actively trains with their kids...that was really hard to watch. My kids are much younger than that but, I wouldn't allow them anywhere near a ring. I just don't get what is going on with some parents. The risk of serious injury in that type of match is just not worth it. 

Of course, listening to my 9 year old daughter ask "Why are they just flailing?" was priceless.


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## WaterGal (Mar 1, 2014)

I think it really depends on what a black belt _means _in the context of the style and organization.  

Does black belt mean you've mastered a deep and detailed set of skills and are ready to strike out on your own as a teacher?  Does it mean you can legitimately defend yourself in real life or are a hardcore tough fighter?  Then yeah, you need to an adult, or at least an older teen.

But in some styles/orgs, a black belt means that you can do this list of forms, that list of strikes, are a decent sparrer for your age & weight class, are physically fit and have a good attitude.   If those are the requirements, I think some middle-to-older kids can reasonably be black belts. Yeah, they won't usually have the same power as an adult and may take longer to learn things.  But if they work hard, kids can learn to do forms and strikes cleanly, and can spar well for their weight class.

But I do think that 5 years old is too young by _any _reasonable standard.  Kids 3-4 years are still developing basic motor skills, spatial awareness, and being able to pay attention for more than 2 minutes. At that age, most of what you're teaching them is stuff like which foot is the left one and how to stand in line; there's just no way a 3-year old could learn Taegeuk 3 in two months well enough to even do it on their own.  I have no idea how they're passing those kids along.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Bad parenting there.  Letting a 14 year old full contact fight is borderline child abuse.  with all the data coming out about brain injuries and allowing a 14 yr old take multiple blows to the head like that is stupid.



What age are they playing football?

She now has a 2-1-0 pro record. 

http://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/32785-kaela-banney
http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/topic/kaela-banney/

It is a Queensland thing. Kids are just brought up tougher here.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2014)

Takai said:


> As a parent who actively trains with their kids...that was really hard to watch. My kids are much younger than that but, I wouldn't allow them anywhere near a ring. I just don't get what is going on with some parents. The risk of serious injury in that type of match is just not worth it.
> 
> Of course, listening to my 9 year old daughter ask "Why are they just flailing?" was priceless.



And you told the 9 year old that most first fights are pretty scrappy?


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## ballen0351 (Mar 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> What age are they playing football?


at 5 my 1st son started but that's with full pads and helmets and against other 5 year olds and I still think twice about it and may not let my other son start and there is talk here of banning tackle football for kids due to more data on traumatic Brain injuries


> She now has a 2-1-0 pro record.
> 
> http://www.tapology.com/fightcenter/fighters/32785-kaela-banney
> http://www.gladstoneobserver.com.au/topic/kaela-banney/


didn't say she wasn't an ok fighter I said her parents are stupid


> It is a Queensland thing. Kids are just brought up tougher here.


Keep telling her that when she has dementia at 40 and blows her head off like Junior Seau  "Oh its ok she was a tough kid"


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## Takai (Mar 1, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And you told the 9 year old that most first fights are pretty scrappy?



Actually I explained the difference between the system they are training in (Wing Chun) versus the style they were watching.


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## drop bear (Mar 1, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> at 5 my 1st son started but that's with full pads and helmets and against other 5 year olds and I still think twice about it and may not let my other son start and there is talk here of banning tackle football for kids due to more data on traumatic Brain injuries
> 
> didn't say she wasn't an ok fighter I said her parents are stupid
> 
> Keep telling her that when she has dementia at 40 and blows her head off like Junior Seau  "Oh its ok she was a tough kid"



I think you are overestimating the risk. Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures. And it is an area where kids are still allowed to fall over.
Look I accept it is a hard sport and not many people are going to be able to take it to the level where they fight. There is a lot of dedication and sacrifice involved.

And that is where the experience is gained. A pro fighter is the equivalent of the black belt. As far as the standing in most clubs go. They take a mentoring role and get some added authority. They have the fight skills and the experience.

So can a minus 18 handle responsibility? Yes.

Can they know the techniques? Yes.

Can they handle themselves as much as a 14 year old girl can be expected to? Yes.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 1, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.
> 
> I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.
> 
> ...



I really don't think age should be an issue for rank but rather, it should be if the student is ready for the rank, physically and mentally. At my dojo to get a black belt you have to be able to take a hit like a full grown man. You hold a pad and somebody hits it full force and you have to be able to take the impact. That is one of the requirements for black belt. Now, if a five year old can fulfill that requirement for getting a black belt along with all the other requirements than I don't see any reason why he shouldn't get it, although I've never heard of a five year old that could do that.


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## TKDTony2179 (Mar 1, 2014)

Takai said:


> As a parent who actively trains with their kids...that was really hard to watch. My kids are much younger than that but, I wouldn't allow them anywhere near a ring. I just don't get what is going on with some parents. The risk of serious injury in that type of match is just not worth it.
> 
> Of course, listening to my 9 year old daughter ask "Why are they just flailing?" was priceless.



Yea flailing because of lack of skill and adrenaline dump. Pad work and real fighting looks totally different.


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## TKDTony2179 (Mar 1, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> I think it really depends on what a black belt _means _in the context of the style and organization.
> 
> Does black belt mean you've mastered a deep and detailed set of skills and are ready to strike out on your own as a teacher?  Does it mean you can legitimately defend yourself in real life or are a hardcore tough fighter?  Then yeah, you need to an adult, or at least an older teen.
> 
> ...



Only reason I can see a 5 yr old that have a black belt is because they passed their lil dragon or ninja program. But I can see why that would confuse adults or even older black belt.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

TKDTony2179 said:


> Yea flailing because of lack of skill and adrenaline dump. Pad work and real fighting looks totally different.



It is easy to look perfect when you are not under pressure. But the plan changes when you step in to the ring for the first time. A scrappy first fight is no indication of lack of skill. More just what happens in a full contact fight.

It is not uncommon and that was a better first fight that a lot of people have. You have to bear in mind very few people are able to perfect pad work and real fight there way through one of those.

A first mma fight is supposed to look like that. It is just one of the differences between real life and what people think should happen.

It can be a trap because people go to water when the reality of hard punches to the head changes the script from clever pad work to trying to achieve some simple basics under enormous pressure.

Same girl doing drills. Nothing wrong with her technique.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PDOaG52D_h4


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I think you are overestimating the risk.


And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries.  And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.


> Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures. And it is an area where kids are still allowed to fall over.


Yeah I got the implied "we are just tougher then you" BS the first time.  Like I said don't matter how tough you are physics are physics and being tough won't stop a kids brain from banging around in the skull.  You wanna do it as an adult great known the risk under stand the risk and go for it.  Hopefully I'm wrong but since we are only now taking this stuff seriously and really studying Traumatic brain injury on adult athletes and seeing even repeated small hits over the course of a few years can cause major damage later in life this girl won't know the damage for another 20 or 30 years.  Hey but you guys are just tougher down there so physics don't apply to her I guess.


> Look I accept it is a hard sport and not many people are going to be able to take it to the level where they fight. There is a lot of dedication and sacrifice involved.


Again all that is irrelevent were talking science and facts and facts are showing repeated blows to the head are bad for adults and we have limited data on kids brains but what i have been reading the data we do have shows amd even great effect at a younger age.  


> And that is where the experience is gained. A pro fighter is the equivalent of the black belt.


Sure she can run around with a black belt that's meaningless to me when she will be drooling and forgetting her name at 40.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries.  And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.
> 
> Yeah I got the implied "we are just tougher then you" BS the first time.  Like I said don't matter how tough you are physics are physics and being tough won't stop a kids brain from banging around in the skull.  You wanna do it as an adult great known the risk under stand the risk and go for it.  Hopefully I'm wrong but since we are only now taking this stuff seriously and really studying Traumatic brain injury on adult athletes and seeing even repeated small hits over the course of a few years can cause major damage later in life this girl won't know the damage for another 20 or 30 years.  Hey but you guys are just tougher down there so physics don't apply to her I guess.
> 
> ...



Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners. 

It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?

I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.
> 
> It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?
> 
> I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.



Here and here and here and here. How many more would you like?

The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too oftne.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Here and here and here and here. How many more would you like?
> 
> The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too oftne.



And so you are proposing removing any sport where a child could sustain a concussion? I don't think you would have many sports left.

Including the tkd I am afraid.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jLcAXcemUDc

By the way did they give that kid a standing count? If you want to discuss danger and head trauma. That is an issue right there.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

flo said:


> I looked into that little white girl's Kaela training. damn. It's like an instant eye sore.
> 
> Ugly! clumsy! and so grounded. you call that martial art? we capoeiristas fly everywhere.



See I like capoeira. 

I would be more of an Angola man these days.

I used to train with some of these guys.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BsPGy6LC59k


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.
> 
> It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?
> 
> I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.



I didn't bash MMA I bashed this kids parents.  Grown adults can do what they want.  They are old enough to look at the dangers and weigh the risks and make a choice.  

There is growing data about kids and head injuries and the outlook isn't good.  Adults brains are done forming and growing so it is what it is.  Kids not so much.

It takes 10 seconds on Google to find the data if you choose to read it.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I didn't bash MMA I bashed this kids parents.  Grown adults can do what they want.  They are old enough to look at the dangers and weigh the risks and make a choice.
> 
> There is growing data about kids and head injuries and the outlook isn't good.  Adults brains are done forming and growing so it is what it is.  Kids not so much.
> 
> It takes 10 seconds on Google to find the data if you choose to read it.



And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
> http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/



Ok how man kids are running from bulls, BASE jumping, Cave diving or driving race cars?  And getting ate by a Shark really?  That's your rebuttal to scientific evidence showing traumatic brain injuries in Children is very dangerous and can cause life long problems.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ok how man kids are running from bulls, BASE jumping, Cave diving or driving race cars?  And getting ate by a Shark really?  That's your rebuttal to scientific evidence showing traumatic brain injuries in Children is very dangerous and can cause life long problems.



Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.

Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.

So is playing dangerous games with bulls. ( you think mma is tough try going to a rodeo)

And you never had any scientific evidence you told me to find it remember? so there was nothing to rebutt. And another poster even laid out some for you.


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.
> 
> Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.
> 
> ...



I didn't know google was so hard for you
TBI in children
http://www.biausa.org/brain-injury-children.htm
http://nichcy.org/disability/specific/tbi
http://www.childrenshospital.org/health-topics/conditions/head-or-brain-injury
http://www.asha.org/Publications/leader/2010/101102/Pediatric-Traumatic-Brain-Injury.htm
http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/909105-overview
http://www.cdc.gov/traumaticbraininjury/statistics.html
http://www.internationalbrain.org/issues-associated-with-preschool-child-traumatic-brain-injury/
http://cokidswithbraininjury.com/

MMA specific
http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/11/10/5087742/ufc-mma-brain-injury-tbi-cte-concussions


> One fighter, for example, says he slurs his speech for up to 36 hours after sparring sessions. He also was found wandering a department store, oblivious to how he got there. Others tell stories of being dizzy for months after a fight and unable to remember people they've met a few days earlier.





> Or this from former UFC fighter Tom DeBlass:
> DeBlass already retired from fighting once, last November, after losing his first two fights in the UFC. But he returned in April to a different promotion and scored a technical knockout to improve his record to 8-2.
> After that win, DeBlass says, he wasn't sure he would fight again. He says his brain would ache after sparring, and his fiancee, Delilah Acevedo, says he is generally more forgetful.
> This spring, for example, DeBlass was ordering takeout from Conca D'oro Restaurant in Forked River for a gathering at his home. Minutes later, he called back and tried to order his own meal again, forgetting he had already done so.​



http://www.mmafighting.com/2012/3/13/2867460/the-fighter-who-stayed-too-long


> "When talking to him on the phone, his speech was becoming slurred," said Mike Mobbs, who&#8217;s counted Goodridge as his best friend since the two were nine years old, growing up in Barrie, Ontario together. "It got to the point where, when having phone conversations with him, I found myself constantly saying, &#8216;What did you say? Pardon?&#8217; That, to me, was the tip-off."


http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...aces-to-learn-more-about-fighter-brain-injury


> Earlier this spring, Bernick and his team revealed findings that showed substantial degradation in certain areas of the brains of long-tenured MMA fighters. The affected areas are critical to learning, memory and emotion. Evidently, these degradations are consistent with the symptoms of chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE), a condition caused by multiple head injuries and characterized by dementia, memory loss, aggression, confusion and depression. CTE generally appears years, or even decades, after the trauma occurs.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I didn't know google was so hard for you
> TBI in children
> http://www.biausa.org/brain-injury-children.htm
> http://nichcy.org/disability/specific/tbi
> ...




And I did say there was a risk. 

I am not sure how you remove risk from sport.

Certainly there are ways to minimise that and mma is making steps to do so especially with younger fighters. I think there should be more focus on good refereeing good medical advice fair match ups and systems in place that reduce that risk.

I don't feel we need to condem the parents of any child that does a sport that can result in concussions.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I don't feel we need to condem the parents of any child that does a sport that can result in concussions.



I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only



So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?

You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up. Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.

Obesity is a big killer that starts in child hood.

Boxing has been used as a troubled youth program with good results.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

PTSD treated with mma.
http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever

Now mental health in youth is a killer as well.

Contact sports are not going away and I don't believe as a society we would be healthier or happier if they did.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?


football is taking steps to prevent head injuries including rule changes equipment changes and at least here even the slightest belief a kid took a hard shot to the head he is pulled from game, evaluated, and if the medic think its even a slight concussion he cant go back in game, is banned from practice for 2 weeks and cant play in a game for 4 weeks and needs a doc note saying hes cleared to play. Youth Soccer is banning the use of heading the ball to try prevent this and I know nothing about rugby I don't even know if we have kids rugby here.


> You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up.



sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.



> Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.


not according to the Doctors 


> Obesity is a big killer that starts in child hood.


has nothing to do with the topic.  kids can play anything other then beating each other in the head. BJJ, Judo, Grapple or  wrestle if you want to keep training in MMA style and stay in shape 


> Boxing has been used as a troubled youth program with good results.
> http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever


great kids wear head gear and:
Because of the risk of                     head and facial injuries, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society oppose boxing as a sport                     for children and adolescents. These organizations recommend that physicians vigorously oppose boxing in youth and *encourage                     patients to participate in alternative sports in which intentional head blows are not central to the sport. 
*http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1165.abstract


> PTSD treated with mma.
> http://www.cis.org.au/media-informa...900-an-indigenous-program-thats-boxing-clever


that's the same tory from the boxing above?



> Contact sports are not going away and I don't believe as a society we would be healthier or happier if they did.


I don't want contact sports to go away.  I just don't want kids put at unnecessary risks with repeated blows to the head.  you want to do it as an adult have fun you know the risks.


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## generalneon (Mar 2, 2014)

I joined this forum for my daughter, who is 10. She is currently a 1st dan in Tang Soo Do, about to test for her 2nd degree in April. She has put in the time, the effort, and has shown the dedication to earn her rank. She helps to instruct the lower belts in forms and sparring, and has strived to improve herself and others. She has been recognized for having forms twice as crisp as black belts twice her age. Ultimately, it depends on the kid. How a five year old earns a black belt is a mystery to me, since I thought that dedication and attrition factor into the ranking, but if a kid puts in the work, there should be no real age barrier. Black belts do, however, need to be earned.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

generalneon said:


> I joined this forum for my daughter, who is 10. She is currently a 1st dan in Tang Soo Do, about to test for her 2nd degree in April. She has put in the time, the effort, and has shown the dedication to earn her rank. She helps to instruct the lower belts in forms and sparring, and has strived to improve herself and others. She has been recognized for having forms twice as crisp as black belts twice her age. Ultimately, it depends on the kid. How a five year old earns a black belt is a mystery to me, since I thought that dedication and attrition factor into the ranking, but if a kid puts in the work, there should be no real age barrier. Black belts do, however, need to be earned.



how long has she trained?


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## generalneon (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> how long has she trained?



She's been training since she was five, averaging between three and five classes per week, not including the Haidong Gumdo classes she takes twice a week.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

generalneon said:


> She's been training since she was five, averaging between three and five classes per week, not including the Haidong Gumdo classes she takes twice a week.



So in 5 years shes gone from no belt to ready for 2nd dan?  Is it a real adult level black belt or junior belt?  We don't allow anyone under 18 to have an adult belt.  We have 2 different levels of junior black belts then at 16 you can start the adult classes but cant test for black until 18.  My teachers son is 17 and is amazing but he cant test for a few more months.  And nobody can test for 2nd dan at 5 total years the fastest it would be possible is 8 years total.


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## generalneon (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So in 5 years shes gone from no belt to ready for 2nd dan?  Is it a real adult level black belt or junior belt?  We don't allow anyone under 18 to have an adult belt.  We have 2 different levels of junior black belts then at 16 you can start the adult classes but cant test for black until 18.  My teachers son is 17 and is amazing but he cant test for a few more months.  And nobody can test for 2nd dan at 5 total years the fastest it would be possible is 8 years total.



There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

generalneon said:


> There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.



Im sure shes a great kid, but shes still a kid.  Ive never seen a kid blackbelt because they don't exist in my organization.  If I saw a 10 year old 2nd dan in any place I walked into looking for training, Id turn and walk out.  My preference I don't believe they are on par with adults but your ok with it so good for her.


----------



## generalneon (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Im sure shes a great kid, but shes still a kid.  Ive never seen a kid blackbelt because they don't exist in my organization.  If I saw a 10 year old 2nd dan in any place I walked into looking for training, Id turn and walk out.  My preference I don't believe they are on par with adults but your ok with it so good for her.



If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

generalneon said:


> If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.


I have no doubt kids can copy the moves but that's not understanding the material.  More to it then looking good


----------



## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> football is taking steps to prevent head injuries including rule changes equipment changes and at least here even the slightest belief a kid took a hard shot to the head he is pulled from game, evaluated, and if the medic think its even a slight concussion he cant go back in game, is banned from practice for 2 weeks and cant play in a game for 4 weeks and needs a doc note saying hes cleared to play. Youth Soccer is banning the use of heading the ball to try prevent this and I know nothing about rugby I don't even know if we have kids rugby here.
> 
> 
> sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.
> ...



You are drawing you own lines in the sand about the risk. It went from 1 concussion is bad to well if they have systems in place it is better. To wrestling and judo may produce injuries but that is better.

And you are welcome to make that choice for yourself and your kids as other parents have drawn their own lines in the sand. And make their own choices.

Regardless and to try to get back on topic anyone who has the experience and the dedication to be a pro fighter should fill the same boxes that it takes to be a black belt. Not taking into account personal character which is of course personal.

This holds with any activity if you are pursuing a martial art and they are further along than you then listen to what they say. If this means that progress is defined by a rank then that is also OK.

It is not reasonable to base rank on what seems to be age or body weight. 

Each martial arts sets its own standards on this. You can't really compare black belt in style a to black belt in style b. Gradings are not really designed to do that.

Comparing black belts changes the meaning from an achievement that is designed to mark your own progress to an achievement designed to impress others.

The same question could be raised regarding disabled black belts.


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You are drawing you own lines in the sand about the risk. It went from 1 concussion is bad to well if they have systems in place it is better. To wrestling and judo may produce injuries but that is better.
> 
> And you are welcome to make that choice for yourself and your kids as other parents have drawn their own lines in the sand. And make their own choices.


I'm not talking about injuries that heal like broken bones or sprain ankles.  Head injuries don't heal and sometimes don't even show up until decades later.  There is no intent to strike the head in any of the other sports like football judo wrestling horseback riding.  Its all incidental.  Mma is purposely targeting the head. So when you brain is still forming and growing as a kid your parents are stupid to put you at that risk.  Incidental or accidental head contact can't be avoided joining a sport that purposely targets the head is bad parenting.  You want to ignore the data fine go for it but again I feel bad for her when she's 40 and can't remember her kids names.


> Regardless and to try to get back on topic anyone who has the experience and the dedication to be a pro fighter should fill the same boxes that it takes to be a black belt.


One has nothing to do with the other.  Plenty of pro fighters don't have black belts and pleant of black belts could never make it as a pro fighter.


> Not taking into account personal character which is of course personal.
> 
> This holds with any activity if you are pursuing a martial art and they are further along than you then listen to what they say. If this means that progress is defined by a rank then that is also OK.


That's where I disagree a 5 yr old black belt doesn't have the intellectual capacity to thoroughly explain the finer details of a form or kata or bunkai.


> It is not reasonable to base rank on what seems to be age or body weight.


Tell a 7 year old to explain how to tie his shoe.  They have been doing it for a few years so its not hard.  They can't they don't have the capacity.  Now ask a 10 yr old black belt to explain a black belt lvl kata and the details of a bunkai.  They might be able to copy the teacher and preform the moves but that's not enough.


> Each martial arts sets its own standards on this. You can't really compare black belt in style a to black belt in style b. Gradings are not really designed to do that.


I agree to an extent but if your rank test is the same for a 5 year old kid and a 25 year old something's wrong there.


> Comparing black belts changes the meaning from an achievement that is designed to mark your own progress to an achievement designed to impress others.
> 
> The same question could be raised regarding disabled black belts.



Depends on the disability.  Physical disability its not even close to similar.  Mental then yes depending on severity


----------



## K-man (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Bad parenting there.  Letting a 14 year old full contact fight is borderline child abuse.  with all the data coming out about brain injuries and allowing a 14 yr old take multiple blows to the head like that is stupid.


Totally in agreement. 



drop bear said:


> It is a Queensland thing. Kids are just brought up tougher here.


I don't believe it is a Queensland thing at all. Stupid is where you find it.



drop bear said:


> I think you are overestimating the risk. Of contact sports mma suffers some of the least head trauma. And has very good safety measures.



I don't believe there is any evidence anywhere to support this statement.



ballen0351 said:


> And I think your not paying attention to all the data coming out about brain injuries.  And we have no idea the damage being caused to a 14 yr old whos brain is still growing and*developing.
> 
> True again.
> 
> ...





drop bear said:


> Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.


Mohammad  Ali was 42 when diagnosed with his problems. If you look at the time frame his career spanned 22 years but the major trauma occurred in the later stages of his career when he started getting hit. MMA hasn't been around long enough to see the problems but I have no doubt that the damage will become evident.



> Dr. Ferdie Pacheco, Alis long-time ringside physician, is one of those who feels boxing alone is not to blame, but rather the fact that Ali continued fighting longer than he should have. Boxing in and out of itself is not the cause of Muhammad Alis brain injuries, but rather, it was Muhammad Ali fighting for too long and fighting at an advanced age that resulted in his injuries, he stated.
> 
> 
> When asked after which fight he felt he should have retired, Ali simply said, Foreman, referring to his 1974 world heavyweight title clash with George Foreman, The Rumble in the Jungle.
> ...





drop bear said:


> I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.


A very fine fine line at that. I would suggest that even with top quality headgear I wouldn't allow a child into full contact fighting.



Dirty Dog said:


> The long term effects of even a single concussion in a child can be devastating. Pretending that it's no big deal won't change that. And while you may not have noticed the early onset of significant cognitive degeneration in people who have had multiple concussions, I can assure you that those of us in emergency medicine see it far too often.


This needs to be read again ... slowly, so it sinks in.



drop bear said:


> And my point is mma is one of the lesser risky sports.
> http://www.scifighting.com/2013/11/20/16325/12-sports-dangerous-mma/


That's a joke, right? There may be be sports with more chance of injury but few with more chance of brain injury. Not one of the people involved in these activities goes out in the knowledge that they are likely to be hit multiple times to the head.



drop bear said:


> Cheerleading, equestrian, motocross.
> 
> Actually motocross is a pretty big sport here.
> 
> ...



Cheerleaders punching each other to the head? No
Equestrian eventers or jockeys punching each other? Mmm! Not within the rules.
Motocross guys in a punch up? See previous answer.
MMA guys punching each other to the head? Sure, not a problem.



drop bear said:


> And I did say there was a risk.
> 
> I am not sure how you remove risk from sport.
> 
> ...


You can't remove the risk of injury from sport or from life in general. Everything comes down to risk management and avoiding things that are likely to cause long term permanent damage. MMA would be in the the top group of sports where competitors are likely to suffer ABI. Any parent that knowingly exposes their child to that risk is open to condemnation.



ballen0351 said:


> I don't think all sports but MMA or any full contact fighting art be it TKD, Karate, Boxing where blows to the head are the norm should be restricted to adults only


Years ago as a junior boxer I would have disagreed. With the more recent medical evidence I concur. At what age a person can take such a decision is debatable.



drop bear said:


> So are we condemning parents of football, rugby, soccer?
> 
> You are facing the issue where these risks are an acceptable part of growing up. Quite often the benefits of sport outweigh The risks.
> 
> ...


We are not discussing contact sports. We are discussing MMA or martial arts. I no longer allow hard punching to the head in our training. It just isn't worth the risk. If as an adult, you make the decision to engage in a sport that could cause you long term disability, that is your call. For me, martial art training is great for many reasons, but being hit in the head is not one of them. 




ballen0351 said:


> sure some risk but not full contact punches and kicks to the head.
> 
> Because of the risk of                     head and facial injuries, the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Canadian Paediatric Society oppose boxing as a sport                     for children and adolescents. These organizations recommend that physicians vigorously oppose boxing in youth and *encourage                     patients to participate in alternative sports in which intentional head blows are not central to the sport.
> *http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2011/08/24/peds.2011-1165.abstract
> ...


Spot on! Mate I hope you got a Rep for this thread. (I tried)


----------



## jks9199 (Mar 2, 2014)

Folks, let's try to shift back on topic about young black belts.  And on that note, let's try to remember that the meaning of a black belt is really dependent on the school and association, sometimes even changing over time.  Let's not excoriate a kid because of how their teachers do things, OK?


----------



## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I'm not talking about injuries that heal like broken bones or sprain ankles.  Head injuries don't heal and sometimes don't even show up until decades later.  There is no intent to strike the head in any of the other sports like football judo wrestling horseback riding.  Its all incidental.  Mma is purposely targeting the head. So when you brain is still forming and growing as a kid your parents are stupid to put you at that risk.  Incidental or accidental head contact can't be avoided joining a sport that purposely targets the head is bad parenting.  You want to ignore the data fine go for it but again I feel bad for her when she's 40 and can't remember her kids names.
> 
> One has nothing to do with the other.  Plenty of pro fighters don't have black belts and pleant of black belts could never make it as a pro fighter.
> 
> ...



And again you are making you own choice about risk. And what is acceptable. Just like everybody else gets to.

The point is that if you can use your martial arts to win fights then that is an indicator that you understand it. I don't get the point of Kata so I don't do it. I don't condem other people who choose to do it.

And this is the point I am trying to make. I don't judge other styles by my standards. I don't think that is reasonable if it is working for them fine.

So if for example people want to give down syndrome kid a black belt that he worked for. Then he deserves that.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ujCeYfAyU

If they want to give a child a black belt that they worked for fine.

Just because someone is awarded a black belt it does not really mean they will be called upon to fight crime or win fights. It is for them and their club. Not me,not my club and not to meet my expectations


----------



## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

jks9199 said:


> Folks, let's try to shift back on topic about young black belts.  And on that note, let's try to remember that the meaning of a black belt is really dependent on the school and association, sometimes even changing over time.  Let's not excoriate a kid because of how their teachers do things, OK?




Yeah fair point.


----------



## K-man (Mar 2, 2014)

generalneon said:


> There is no designation between junior or senior belts, your level is your level. She has put in the hours of training, passed every test she was given, which are the exact same as anyone else testing, regardless of age. She passed her black belt test at age 8, and continued with her training for an additional 2 years, which is required to teat for 2nd degree. One of the big factors to earn the black belt is time training in the dojang, and she's in there, training, very frequently, more so than most other students her age, and more than many senior belts. She's a quick learner, very determined, and a bit of a perfectionist. Her instructor stresses discipline and power, both of which she has demonstrated frequently. She does have her moments where she displays a level of immaturity, but she will work through it to meet any and all expectations. She's earned everything she's acquired. If she's earned it, age should be irrelevant.


Forgive me if I disagree. I have seen too many babies walking around with black belts. Designate them as juniors, sure. But to equate the child's rank with an adult rank is a joke. I'm with *Ballen *&#8203;on this one.


generalneon said:


> If that's how you feel, then you're entitled to your feelings. However, you may just be impressed by the level of skill that the kid displays if you decided to hang around and watch. If the crispness and power of the kicks are what one expects, and the fluidity of the forms displayed are nearly flawless, then that would bode well for the instructor's ability to teach their students the art. That instructor shouldn't be looked down upon if young students can learn what they are teaching to the point of high accomplishment.


I once saw a thirteen year old grade to adult black belt and it was just pitiful. He had the knowledge but not the physical ability. I have a sixteen year old with three times the ability and much more knowledge but it will be two more years before he gets his black.  When he does he will wear it with pride in any company.

At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.
:asian:


----------



## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

K-man said:


> Forgive me if I disagree. I have seen too many babies walking around with black belts. Designate them as juniors, sure. But to equate the child's rank with an adult rank is a joke. I'm with *Ballen *&#8203;on this one.
> 
> I once saw a thirteen year old grade to adult black belt and it was just pitiful. He had the knowledge but not the physical ability. I have a sixteen year old with three times the ability and much more knowledge but it will be two more years before he gets his black.  When he does he will wear it with pride in any company.
> 
> ...



Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?

What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?

I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And again you are making you own choice about risk. And what is acceptable. Just like everybody else gets to.


Its not "my" choice.  Its what the medical professionals are finding out.


> The point is that if you can use your martial arts to win fights then that is an indicator that you understand it.


True but that has nothing to do with a black belt I know orange belts or green belts that can win fights.


> I don't get the point of Kata so I don't do it. I don't condem other people who choose to do it.


Which is fine but if were talking about an art that teaches them i just dont believe a 10 year old is mentally capable of understanding them.  They can copy the moves no doubt but dont understand what they are doing.


> And this is the point I am trying to make. I don't judge other styles by my standards. I don't think that is reasonable if it is working for them fine.


Which is fine I dont judge people either but the point of a forum is to give ideas and opinions and someone asked the question.  And in my opinion if I walked into a school looking for training and saw kids with black belts my first thought is Mcdojo and Im walking out.  I could be totally wrong but thats my opinion.


> So if for example people want to give down syndrome kid a black belt that he worked for. Then he deserves that.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ujCeYfAyU


Got no problem with that.  At my dojo we have a few special needs kids.  We give them ranks but also take into consoderation there limitations and grade accordingly.


> If they want to give a child a black belt that they worked for fine.
> 
> Just because someone is awarded a black belt it does not really mean they will be called upon to fight crime or win fights. It is for them and their club. Not me,not my club and not to meet my expectations


I agree but whats your opinion?  Would you award an adult rank to a 5 yr old?


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?
> 
> What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?
> 
> I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.



I don't think it has anything to do with one black belt is better then another's but if your test is the same for an 8 yr old and a 28 yr old its either way to hard for one or way to easy for the other.  There is too much difference mentally physically and emotionally between the ages for the tests and material covered to be equal for both ages.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think it has anything to do with one black belt is better then another's but if your test is the same for an 8 yr old and a 28 yr old its either way to hard for one or way to easy for the other.  There is too much difference mentally physically and emotionally between the ages for the tests and material covered to be equal for both ages.




It would solve your age problem though. Either they could do it or they can't. 

But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Its not "my" choice.  Its what the medical professionals are finding out.
> 
> True but that has nothing to do with a black belt I know orange belts or green belts that can win fights.
> 
> ...




And so now you are drawing a line in the sand about what does as does not make a black belt. And again that is fine and your choice. Just like it is fine and their choice to have their own standards.

An adult rank in our system is a guy who fights. That is about the criteria. You have the fight team and you have everybody else. Otherwise there is no rankings except for things like the sherdog ones.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And so now you are drawing a line in the sand about what does as does not make a black belt. And again that is fine and your choice. Just like it is fine and their choice to have their own standards.
> 
> An adult rank in our system is a guy who fights. That is about the criteria. You have the fight team and you have everybody else. Otherwise there is no rankings except for things like the sherdog ones.


Lol I'm not drawing any lines anywhere.  I'm giving an opinion on an internet forum.  No more no less.

So can a 5 yr old be on your "fight team". If not why since you say age shouldn't matter

Or since you don't really have ranks in your school do kids
Train in the same class with aadults?  Since giving a 10 year old an adult black belt means that 10 yr old is of the same skill level as adults of the same rank


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## Carol (Mar 2, 2014)

Unfortunately the brain is not a muscle and cannot be built up to better withstand impact.  Safety gear helps some but the damage sustained is from the brain hitting the skull, and no safety gear can prevent that.   


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Lol I'm not drawing any lines anywhere.  I'm giving an opinion on an internet forum.  No more no less.
> 
> So can a 5 yr old be on your "fight team". If not why since you say age shouldn't matter
> 
> ...




We have weight classes and we make our own judgements on age. So no a five year old cannot be on our fight team. Kids train with less or no contact. We don't match up hundred kilo guys with 50 kilo guys for serious sparring.

So yes we do make adjustments for kids. But that does not mean we are automatically right and all of you guys are wrong.

And this is my point.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We have weight classes and we make our own judgements on age. So no a five year old cannot be on our fight team. Kids train with less or no contact. We don't match up hundred kilo guys with 50 kilo guys for serious sparring.
> 
> So yes we do make adjustments for kids. But that does not mean we are automatically right and all of you guys are wrong.
> 
> And this is my point.



And my point is if you need to make adjustments for kids then its not the same level as adults so it isn't the same rank.


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> And my point is if you need to make adjustments for kids then its not the same level as adults so it isn't the same rank.



It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.

Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.

Our style takes more commitment than most. As you have said there is a physical element and a danger element. A lot of styles don't have that and it is plausible that a child can perform to that standard. 

It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.
Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.

So this adjustment becomes part of a grading.

In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.

But rankings are not designed like that.


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## K-man (Mar 2, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.


Not so. Kano introduced the ranking system originally. He used them to recognise progress through his organisation. Other Japanese styles followed suit. If you look at the USJF I reckon they have it right. You progress through the ranks as a junior but you grade to black belt as an adult.



> The USJF Juniors ranking system specifies ranks to 11th ky&#363; (j&#363;ichiky&#363. The USJA Juniors ranking system specifies twelve levels of ky&#363; rank, beginning with "Junior 1st Degree" (equivalent to j&#363;niky&#363;, or 12th ky&#363 and ending with "Junior 12th Degree" (equivalent to ikky&#363. As with the senior practitioners, the USJA recommends that juniors wear a patch specifying their rank. When a USJA Junior reaches the age of 17, their conversion to Senior rank is:
> Yellow belt converts to 6th kyu (rokyu)
> Orange belt converts to 5th kyu (gokyu)
> Green belt converts to 4th kyu (yonkyu)
> ...





drop bear said:


> Why is there an expectation at all that other people are supposed to be impressed by your black belt?
> 
> What happens when you encounter someone who has done their bb harder?
> 
> I am not sure at all about this idea that people are walking around with this concept that their bb is more awesome than anybody else's.


Most people who haven't trained martial arts look at a black belt as something special. They have no concept of dan ranks but anyone with a black belt must be some tough SOB, and if you go back thirty or forty years they were. Back then a black belt wasn't given out without a lot of blood, sweat and tears, especially the blood. I trained in one school for a very short time where you weren't allowed to touch your partner when sparring. Go figure!  Now you have little kids walking round with black belts. If someone here is a black belt in BJJ I'm impressed because I know what it took to get there. Same for most other MAs. But in some MAs, and I'm not naming them here, the rankings are just a joke. Nothing to do with 'my belt is more awesome than yours'. Personally I couldn't give a stuff about the rank, but if you tie a black belt around your waist in the places I train then you had better be at that level. Some places I have trained guys are scared to hit hard in case they hit you. It is hard to train effectively when the strikes lack intent. To me that reflects badly on the school and the instructors. But you can't train that way with kids. Years ago the most promising 15 year old I had left after a grading where he was hit a bit too hard by an over zealous partner.

When you talk about harder gradings it gets interesting. Years ago the gradings were really hard with lots of physical work and full on sparring, very little knowledge required. Now, we don't actually spar as such. For black belt now you will still put on head gear etc and have to work hard, but that's just a small part of it. The more advanced gradings are demonstrating knowledge and understanding.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 2, 2014)

K-man said:


> Not so. Kano introduced the ranking system originally. He used them to recognise progress through his organisation. Other Japanese styles followed suit. If you look at the USJF I reckon they have it right. You progress through the ranks as a junior but you grade to black belt as an adult.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The thing is that it sets the bar on any arbitrary level we want.


A style that grades easier is one that does not realise the potential of its students

A style that is too hard is subjecting its students to too much risk.

This makes every grading system right.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 3, 2014)

geezer said:


> I hear this a lot, and I have to disagree. In some TKD organizations this _might_ be true.


Might be?  In the largest TKD organization, and in a good number of the smaller ones, it is definitely true.

4th dan is considered an instructor grade and 5th dan an up are considered high dans in KKW TKD.  In Korea, ildan (first dan) takes a year.  Second dan another year, third dan another two years, and fourth dan another three years.  These are minimums.  So a newly minted fourth dan in KKW TKD in Korea represents roughly seven years of training.  In the states, where the average in KKW schools is roughly two years based on what I've seen and read, it represents roughly eight years (again, minimums).  A fifth dan represents over a decade of training.  

From what I've gathered and read, in arts where a shodan takes more than three years (say four to six), a freshly minted black belt is not considered a high rank.  The sentiment that a black belt is just the beginning is also frequently expressed regarding many of these arts.

While a new black belt, even in a two year program, is not a rank beginner, they are frequently considered to be still in the beginning stage of the art.  Again, that is based on what I've seen/read/heard, not on hard data.



geezer said:


> Or  more especially in a school where they routinely give _little kids_ an adult BB rank. In other systems, the BB or it's equivalent implies real achievement and proficiency( BJJ?).  Sure there's still a long way to go to  true mastery but by BB you're more of a journeyman and definitely not a beginner.


I was not referring to real performance and proficiency.  I was strictly referring to rank.  A shodan/chodan/ildan is not generally considered a high rank.  Shodan literally means "beginning degree," and while a shodan is (or should) not be a rank beginner, it is generally not considered a high rank.  

Mention of BJJ is out of place, as BJJ made the black belt a much more advanced grade than it is in most martial arts.  From what I understand, it is something along the lines of ten years to achieve. 

I also don't know that I would call a shodan the equal of a journeyman.  The two don't really represent the same thing. 



geezer said:


> In the art I study, You put in a good many years to achieve the BB equivalent and only a very, very few ever achieve 5th level or higher. After a certain point it's an issue of ability as much as knowledge and years.  Honestly, I probably never will make "master", even with decades working at it.



I don't know what art you practice and I don't know what the average time to shodan/equivalent is, nor where it fits into the scheme of your art's ranks, so I don't have a perspective on it.  But based on yoru last sentence, shodan does not appear to be a "high" grade in your art either.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But k man is judging his black belt off other styles.


The differences between schools, even within the same art and the same organization, is different enough that I would not go beyond the same school in terms of comparison.  That is not practical, but I would not go beyond the same art and the same organization in terms of standards for rank.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.
> 
> I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.
> 
> ...



I'll say the same thing I've always said about this matter...IMHO, I don't believe in giving a BB to anyone under the age of 16.  Some schools have a Jr. BB, which isn't considered a full BB until the person reaches a certain age.  I'm fine with that.  But a 5yr old BB...that's a joke, the school is a mcdojo, more interested in making money and keeping people happy, than preserving the real meaning behind the art and the belt, and I'd run, not walk, away from any school that did that.  It's a joke, plain and simple.  

Sure, some will say, "But what if the kid starts at 3?  by the time he's 12 he should be ready."  I still call BS on that!  I highly doubt anyone that young, has a solid understanding of what it means to be a BB.

Forgot to answer the other questions.  How young is too young?  Under the age of 16.  Age matters IMO, because the older you are, the better you can understand something.  A 5yr old knows what it means to be a BB?  I highly doubt it.  Sure, I've seen some quality young kids out there.  There are a few kids at my dojo that are younger than 16 that have a 'kids' BB.  I train at a Kyokushin dojo.  My teacher doesnt hand out BB's to anyone that doesnt deserve them.  His standards are high for every rank, especially the BB.  I've seen his BB tests, and they're no joke.  The quality and skill level of those kids is above and beyond ANY youth BB that I've seen in any other schools I've trained or been a part of.  And yes, skill is just one part of it.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Sorry I have missed the drooling name forgetting 40 year old mma practitioners.
> 
> It would have to be easier to just present the data than just to bash mma wouldn't it?
> 
> I do realise that sport for children exposes those children to risk. And there is a line between letting a child have risk and letting a child participate in a activity they enjoy.



I agree.  Even with protective gear, injury can and does, happen.  I think that this is why many, not all, dojos out there, tend to water down their teachings, mainly due to fear of injury to someone and the lawsuit that'll no doubt follow.  What some tend to forget is that the arts involve contact.  You can't spar or do SD without it...it doesnt work that way..lol.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I have no doubt kids can copy the moves but that's not understanding the material.  More to it then looking good



QFT!!!  THAT is the main key factor, IMO!  I doubt a 6yr old, a 10yr old is going to have the full understanding of things.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 3, 2014)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So I was browsing the forums and I ran across a post about starting martial arts at an older age, anyway one of the responses was about a class this guy was checking out. The class had a 5 year old with a black belt he said.
> 
> I saw other posts comment on this and one individual mentioned they didn't think someone should have a black belt until they are at least 18.
> 
> ...



It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.

There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."

To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.
> 
> There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."
> 
> To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.



Yes, you're right...it does stink how some places are.  Regarding what you said...my guess would be that the school has a seperate belt system for kids, and another for adults.  I'd say the reason for this is probably to prolong the training, so as to not award them higher rank while being so young.  IF that is in fact the reason, I can accept that.  Look at it this way...nowadays, people are all about the belts.  It makes people feel good.  Oh boy, I got a new belt...I must be good!  Um...no, not necessarily. LOL!  

When I started Kyokushin, and took my first belt exam, we don't find out until a few days later, whether or not we passed.  The belt that I thought I was testing for was orange.  However, when I came to class, my teacher handed me a blue belt.  I didn't question it or ask why.  I can only assume that because of my past training, he felt I was worthy of skipping a belt.  However, since then, I have not skipped any ranks.  For me, it's all about the training, and learning the art.  When I'm ready to test, he'll tell me.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.
> 
> Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.


Im not comparing two different schools or styles.  Within an individual school each rank should have people around the same skill level so white belts should be similar, blue belts should all be similar, browns, blacks ect. Its impossible for a 5 yr old to have the same skill level as a 28 yr old normal adult.  Mentally, physically, and emotionally they are just too far apart in development.


> Our style takes more commitment than most.


:BSmeter:



> As you have said there is a physical element and a danger element. A lot of styles don't have that and it is plausible that a child can perform to that standard.
> 
> It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.


More too it then looking good and memorizing the test.


> Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.
> 
> So this adjustment becomes part of a grading.


if your styles testing and material is the same for a 5 yr old and a 35 yr old ow much is the 35 yr old really learning?  Not much if you ask me.  


> In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.


none that Ive ever seen but Ive never trained in all styles or seen all black belt tests.  The ones Ive seen couldn't be learned and passed in a few months.


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## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> It isn't the same rank anyway. My rank is not your rank even if the belts look similar.



True.



> Raking has this issue. That you are applying one standard to people of different ages different sizes and different learning abilities. And it cannot be done. And personally I believe it shouldn't be done.



We're not all clones of each other, so adjustments will need to be made.  A 5'3 female, trying to reach the face of a 6'2 male, is probably going to be difficult, so yes, adjustments will need to be made.  Will the fitness level of a 23yo male be different than that of a 60yo male?  Probably.  Even with age, size, sex, etc, differences, standards can still be held accordingly.  




> It was even mentioned about some kid with his snappy techniques that in theory pass an adult standard. You mentioned that the child would not have the understanding. But that is subjective. In a objective test of understanding the kid would only need the right answers.
> Without adjustment the kid can become a black belt by every standard required.



I'll refer to what ballen said regarding this.

So this adjustment becomes part of a grading.  However, I will add that me personally, I'm not a fan of young kids, ie: 4, 5, 6yr olds, training anyways.  



> In all honesty many black belt tests could be passed with a few months of dedicated training if all you were doing was training to pass a test.
> 
> But rankings are not designed like that.



I disagree.


----------



## K-man (Mar 3, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> It stinks how some schools (out of greed) have undermined the significance of belts. For example, in the judo school I went to, there were a lot of students 13-16 years old. I saw them wearing all kinds of belts, and I found out the ranking system was: white, yellow, orange, green, blue, purple, brown, black and then degrees of black.
> 
> There was an older guy in class...maybe about 30. He was a yellow belt. Then he took a belt test and the next time he came to class...he had a BROWN BELT!!! I asked, "Hey, shouldn't he have orange?" They told me, "No. For anyone over 18 the belts go white, yellow, brown, black and then various degrees of black."
> 
> To me, that just makes the belt system a moot point. I mean, why do you get to skip all those colors just because you are over 18? What was the reason behind that? I didn't have the nerve to ask the Sensei about it (I thought he would take it as me challenging his choices instead of just being curious), and now I can't because the school is long gone.


I would wonder why it is 'greed' that gives the belt system a lack of significance. I don't charge for junior grading but it is important IMHO, if belts have any relevance, that children's belt progress be held back so they arrive at black belt at an age where they are ready for a black belt and are equal physically and mentally with other Shodan ho. If that means adding more coloured belts, fine by me. I have one friend who adds stripes to his coloured belts as the kids move up. Nothing to do with money, just rewarding progress without making a mockery of the belt system.
:asian:


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## K-man (Mar 3, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The differences between schools, even within the same art and the same organization, is different enough that I would not go beyond the same school in terms of comparison.  That is not practical, but I would not go beyond the same art and the same organization in terms of standards for rank.


I agree with you. I didn't actually say what *drop bear *quoted me as saying. What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect a blackbelt of any style to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 3, 2014)

MJS said:


> I agree.  Even with protective gear, injury can and does, happen.  I think that this is why many, not all, dojos out there, tend to water down their teachings, mainly due to fear of injury to someone and the lawsuit that'll no doubt follow.  What some tend to forget is that the arts involve contact.  You can't spar or do SD without it...it doesnt work that way..lol.



And look not everybody would be expected to jump in the cage at 14 or ever.

Some martial arts are going to be geared towards little or no contact.

Personal choice.

I could very easily get on my high horse and say if a black belt has never fought then he is not a real black belt.

Bjj tends towards this idea.

But again because of personal choice I don't feel people have to.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 3, 2014)

K-man said:


> I agree with you. I didn't actually say what *drop bear *quoted me as saying. What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect a blackbelt of any style to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
> :asian:




What you said was.

At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.


----------



## MJS (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> And look not everybody would be expected to jump in the cage at 14 or ever.
> 
> Some martial arts are going to be geared towards little or no contact.
> 
> ...



That is all true.  MMA is popular, so personally, I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to train at an MMA gym, but just have no desire to fight in the ring, for whatever reason.  As for the contact....again, true....to each his own I suppose.  Everyone trains for various reasons.  I prefer not to use what I call the side benefits, ie: fitness, meeting new people, etc, as the sole purpose for training.  I don't need the arts to help me stay in shape, though as I said its a side benefit.  I train for SD.  I want the ability to raise the odds in my favor, should the need arise.  That said, if the first time you take a good shot, is in a real fight, don't be surprised at the outcome, if you get knocked on your ***.   My point...I'd rather get used to the contact in the controlled setting.  But again, that's just me. 

Another thread was started on the whole injury thing.  We should focus that discussion over there.  This thread is about young kids getting a black belt.  On that matter, I stand by what I said earlier.  A 5yr old BB is a joke.  A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke.  But that's just my opinion.  Apparently others share it too.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 3, 2014)

MJS said:


> That is all true.  MMA is popular, so personally, I see nothing wrong with someone wanting to train at an MMA gym, but just have no desire to fight in the ring, for whatever reason.  As for the contact....again, true....to each his own I suppose.  Everyone trains for various reasons.  I prefer not to use what I call the side benefits, ie: fitness, meeting new people, etc, as the sole purpose for training.  I don't need the arts to help me stay in shape, though as I said its a side benefit.  I train for SD.  I want the ability to raise the odds in my favor, should the need arise.  That said, if the first time you take a good shot, is in a real fight, don't be surprised at the outcome, if you get knocked on your ***.   My point...I'd rather get used to the contact in the controlled setting.  But again, that's just me.
> 
> Another thread was started on the whole injury thing.  We should focus that discussion over there.  This thread is about young kids getting a black belt.  On that matter, I stand by what I said earlier.  A 5yr old BB is a joke.  A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke.  But that's just my opinion.  Apparently others share it too.




Ok but what happens when we raise that.

(Going into mma duchebag mode)

90% of blackbelts are jokes. I routenly demolish them in the gym in the street. I train harder,fight harder and am more physically capable because the expectation on me is higher.

You are a joke if you have never had a fight.
If you have never been hit.
If you think training twice a week will cut it.
If you are not as strong as you can be.

I mean sure have your black belt wear it to parties impress girls. Don't use it as an indication of fighting  because you don't.

Now personally I think that stance is a bit mean spirited to people who are actively trying to do something and have been rewarded for their effort.


----------



## K-man (Mar 3, 2014)

drop bear said:


> What you said was.
> 
> At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation. If your organisation gives out black belts to 8 year olds fine, but don't expect others to look at that with more than a mild amusement.


*"At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation".*

and

*"... a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style."*

Isn't what I said?
:idunno:


----------



## K-man (Mar 3, 2014)

MJS said:


> This thread is about young kids getting a black belt.  On that matter, I stand by what I said earlier.  A 5yr old BB is a joke.  A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke.  But that's just my opinion.  Apparently others share it too.


:cheers:


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ok but what happens when we raise that.
> 
> (Going into mma duchebag mode)
> 
> ...


OK, let's look at context. I would dispute your claim that 90% of black belts are jokes. I would agree that a very small percentage may be. But how do you gauge that? Sure we go into the cage where they have to play by your rules. So you go into a different dojo and now you play by their rules. Now you are the joke. Your black belt means nothing.

So you come into my dojo we spar, you submit me, you win. Regardless of the fact that before you took me down I took out your knee and damaged your spine. What have you prove? Oh yes, you demolished me ... right. 

Just how many black belts have you demolished on the street? I wouldn't even know how to recognise one. And I would be unlikely to be fighting one because some one that has devoted that much time to training won't be fighting on the street unless some dickhead attacks him first, or are you saying you are deliberately picking fights to test your skills? Some of my mates used to do that back in the 60s but you go to jail for that now.

And I am impressed, really. I mean I only train in the gym 5 or 6 hours a week and train karate, Krav and Aikido about 10 hours a week. But at 16 or 17 I would expect you to be fitter and stronger than me at 65. But the difference is, you are training to compete and to compete physically. I am training because I love the MA scene and I have mates training with me. I can explore the kata and look for the hidden applications. I don't live in the expectation of being attacked in the street, even by someone with your undisputed strength and ability, but if that were to occur, I can take heavy punches and I am pretty much as fit and strong as I can be and I handle young aggressive guys in the dojo all the time. Such an attacker is very likely to get a nasty surprise if he was to attack me or my family on the street. 

By your definition I am at least not one of your 90% jokes and I must confess it never occurred to me to wear my black belt to a party to impress the girls. I must admit I have put a belt on to play karate with my five year old grandson but he normally gives me a coloured belt and he likes the yellow one the best. 

And you're right, it is mean spirited to demean the effort people have put in to their training. But when my five year old grandson ties my black belt around his waist, it *is *a joke.
:asian:


----------



## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Ok but what happens when we raise that.
> 
> (Going into mma duchebag mode)
> 
> ...



LOL..no, I don't think that everyone that does MMA is a DB.   OTOH, there are some that are, but we see that all over so....

Seriously though...I've got no problem with MMA or anyone that trains it.  I enjoy watching it, I have friends that train it.  I still enjoy working out with them.   Funny what you said in your comment though, as I tend to believe that A LOT of BB's out there, are, well...a joke.  Nothing wrong with never being in a fight.  IMO, going out looking for trouble is rather stupid.  I've talked my way out of more than I've been in, so I take that as a plus.  Been hit...hard, many times.  Like I said, everyone has their reasons for training.  I have mine, and I'd rather pay for my mistakes in the dojo, and make the corrections, than get hit for the first time in the street, and crumble from the pain.  Training time...real life gets in the way.  I'd say 2-3 times/week, unless you're a pro fighter and THAT is your daily job, is good. Of course, if you can go more, than great!   Strength...well, given we tend to live in a land of fatties, I'd say taking care of yourself should be high on the priority list.  

Honestly, I'm not really sure where you fall regarding this topic.  Are you for or against young BBs?  Hey, just because I might think something is a joke..well, if someone disagrees, that's cool...I'll respect their opinion.  Sorry though...just because a kid started training at 5, doesn't mean that at 10, they should be a BB, and then at 14, a 2nd dan, but that's just me.  I'm sure the next question will be, "So, what will you do with that 5yr old?  Make them wait 11yrs before giving them a BB?"  Umm...sure, why not?  Problem today, is that everyone is in a rush, and everyone thinks the BB is something magical.  It isn't.  Trust me, in 28yrs of training, I've seen people wearing a BB, saw them perform, and thought, "Good Lord, this guy is a BB!?!?!?"  Alrighty then.   I mean really...are school owners that afraid of the parents, that they can't say, "Well Mr. and Mrs. Jones, your kid is more than welcome to train at my school.  However, there are some things that you should know about my expectations and the way I do things."  Hey, when I started Kyokushin, my teacher told me to take a few trial sessions, to see if this was for me.  Afterall, he said it wouldn't be easy.  I figured, how hard could it be?  I trained for years in Kenpo, felt I was in good shape.  how different can the training possibly be??  Well, I'll say this.  That 1hr class kicked my ***!  I was soaked when I left and felt like a newb to the arts.  I worked harder 20min in, than I did in an hour Kenpo class.  Sad but true.  

I said in an earlier post...at my dojo, there are youth black belts.  I also said that my teacher doesn't hand out rank, especially the black belt rank.  These kids will test for the adult BB when they're older, but nonetheless, looking at them now, and there's a small handful of them, they're head and shoulders above other kids their age, wearing BBs.


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## generalneon (Mar 4, 2014)

Man, oh man. 

I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little peeved. To look at these comments, feeling that the elitists of martial arts are poo-pooing the accomplishments of my daughter is quite frustrating. 

She has been training for nearly six years, taking at least three classes every week, usually ends up five or six per, has absorbed, processed, and enacted almost every scrap of advice towards her training, and proven her skills and knowledge at every opportunity. The tests she takes do not have any difference for any age group, you do what you gotta do to pass. She has run out of room for the trophies she has earned at tournaments, and has them lying about in her room. She helps teach the lower belts on forms and techniques, reiterating lessons that she learned from past years. Yet, somehow, due to her young age, her ranking is deemed a joke? 

Is there some magical age at which a martial artist "gets it"? What kind of actions or behavior needs to be displayed to signify that one "gets it"? If someone younger than your mystical time allotment displays that they "get it", why is that person not given the proper ranking that they clearly earned? Why do students past the age barrier that pass any test are assumed that they "get it"? 

First and foremost, in the most simple form, martial arts are taught to defend yourself from an attack. Not to show off exotic moves, not to so Hollywood stunt work, to defend yourself. No doubt, anyone untrained that comes up against my daughter is gonna get hurt. Someone much larger than her, she can hurt them and get away. That's just physics, too large an individual and anyone would have difficulties. Anyone her size, and they would be getting that attacker up off the floor with a squeegee.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Man, oh man.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little peeved. To look at these comments, feeling that the elitists of martial arts are poo-pooing the accomplishments of my daughter is quite frustrating.



Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no?  I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others.  Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone.  I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.  



> She has been training for nearly six years, taking at least three classes every week, usually ends up five or six per, has absorbed, processed, and enacted almost every scrap of advice towards her training, and proven her skills and knowledge at every opportunity. The tests she takes do not have any difference for any age group, you do what you gotta do to pass. She has run out of room for the trophies she has earned at tournaments, and has them lying about in her room. She helps teach the lower belts on forms and techniques, reiterating lessons that she learned from past years. Yet, somehow, due to her young age, her ranking is deemed a joke?



Hey, I give props to your daughter.  At least she's doing something productive, rather than sitting on the couch, watching tv and playing video games.  However, I still can't grasp the idea of giving someone young, a BB, much less a 2nd dan.  So, you're telling me, that at 10yrs old, she can not only perform a technique or kata, but she also has a working knowledge of the ins and outs of said tech. and kata?  She understands and can give 1-2 applications for each move in a kata, she can understand how a tech. works, can adapt that tech under changing circumstances, can teach it, etc.?  



> Is there some magical age at which a martial artist "gets it"? What kind of actions or behavior needs to be displayed to signify that one "gets it"? If someone younger than your mystical time allotment displays that they "get it", why is that person not given the proper ranking that they clearly earned? Why do students past the age barrier that pass any test are assumed that they "get it"?



See above and past posts from me.  I mentioned 16 at least, preferably 18, before someone gets a BB.  So, going on what you feel, you'd be perfectly fine with someone being a 5th dan under the age of 21?  No offense, but this is the attitude that I was talking about earlier...where the teacher is too afraid to say no, and the parents and child thinks that because they've trained for the average time, they should and/or better be awarded the belt.  Sorry, I call BS on that.  Furthermore, just because someone is past the age barrier, as you call it, still doesn't guarantee they'll 'get it'.  The odds would probably be a bit higher...I mean, someone who's 18, 20, 21, is probably going to grasp something a bit better than a 10yr old.  

On another note...what I find interesting is you look at an art like BJJ, where it's taken people 10yrs to gain a BB, and you don't see all the crying and moaning about rank.  The place where I train now, is by far, the most traditional, old school dojo's that I've ever trained at.  Yet despite kids at that school having BB's, they're all considered junior black belts.  They'll still have to test and perform to the adult standards when they're old enough.  



> First and foremost, in the most simple form, martial arts are taught to defend yourself from an attack. Not to show off exotic moves, not to so Hollywood stunt work, to defend yourself. No doubt, anyone untrained that comes up against my daughter is gonna get hurt. Someone much larger than her, she can hurt them and get away. That's just physics, too large an individual and anyone would have difficulties. Anyone her size, and they would be getting that attacker up off the floor with a squeegee.



I agree that they're all about SD, fighting, etc.  Who said anything about exotic moves or Hollywood stunt work??


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> LOL..no, I don't think that everyone that does MMA is a DB.   OTOH, there are some that are, but we see that all over so....
> 
> Seriously though...I've got no problem with MMA or anyone that trains it.  I enjoy watching it, I have friends that train it.  I still enjoy working out with them.   Funny what you said in your comment though, as I tend to believe that A LOT of BB's out there, are, well...a joke.  Nothing wrong with never being in a fight.  IMO, going out looking for trouble is rather stupid.  I've talked my way out of more than I've been in, so I take that as a plus.  Been hit...hard, many times.  Like I said, everyone has their reasons for training.  I have mine, and I'd rather pay for my mistakes in the dojo, and make the corrections, than get hit for the first time in the street, and crumble from the pain.  Training time...real life gets in the way.  I'd say 2-3 times/week, unless you're a pro fighter and THAT is your daily job, is good. Of course, if you can go more, than great!   Strength...well, given we tend to live in a land of fatties, I'd say taking care of yourself should be high on the priority list.
> 
> ...



Each club should be allowed to make the decision for themselves. I have no issue with child black belts some will know their stuff some won't. In all seriousness it is a hobby for most people. Let them get some reward for it.

Accepting a child black belt helps people to be humble.

So the difference is if people said in there own system they do a b c. Fine and for whatever reason.

But they are making judgement on other clubs which is not. Honestly it is sneaky style bashing.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Man, oh man.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little peeved. To look at these comments, feeling that the elitists of martial arts are poo-pooing the accomplishments of my daughter is quite frustrating.
> 
> ...




It is the elitist attitude I have an issue with as well.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> *"At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation".*
> 
> and
> 
> ...



And they should expect to be looked on with mild amusement.

I would never consider someone else's progress a joke.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Each club should be allowed to make the decision for themselves. I have no issue with child black belts some will know their stuff some won't. In all seriousness it is a hobby for most people. Let them get some reward for it.
> 
> Accepting a child black belt helps people to be humble.
> 
> ...



Funny you talk about style bashing, seeing that MMA is one of the biggest offenders of that. 



drop bear said:


> It is the elitist attitude I have an issue with as well.



Yet in this post, he said:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ash-Rank-at-a-young-age?p=1625042#post1625042

we're entitled to our opinions.  Funny, how when we voice those opinions, we're suddenly elitist.  Go figure.



drop bear said:


> And they should expect to be looked on with mild amusement.
> 
> I would never consider someone else's progress a joke.



As I've said in the past, I'm not the martial arts police, nor do I choose to be.  I know what I can/can't do, and I'm more than happy with the folks that I train with, both in and out of the dojo, as well as with the arts that I train.  If someone chooses to devalue something, well, all I can do is shake my head.  Of course, if someone asks, either in person or on a forum, my opinion of a good art, qualities, etc, I'm going to give them an honest opinion.  Sorry to offend people...I didn't realize so many folks today, are made of glass, but I c all it like I see it  I'm tired of sugar coating something, just to make someone feel good.  I mean, if someone sucks, why not tell them?  Why make them walk around thinking they're good?  My teachers have no issues with correcting me...hell I want them to!  If I'm not performing well, I want to know, so I can fix that.  But yes, I'm sorry, but it is my opinion that mcdojos, and kids with black belts and 2nd, 3rd, 4th dan black belts, is a joke!


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Funny you talk about style bashing, seeing that MMA is one of the biggest offenders of that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Who's style have I bashed?

I am working from a mma perspective as everybody is working from their own. 

I haven't been here that long and have not come across a mmaer bashing styles. 

The issue with telling people they suck is it is mostly unproductive. It doesn't help someone learn it doesn't help there confidence it does not improve there training.

It is designed to make the person saying it feel better.

If I  went around telling people they sucked my coach would drop me on my head.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Who's style have I bashed?



Did I mention your name?  



> I am working from a mma perspective as everybody is working from their own.



Ok.



> I haven't been here that long and have not come across a mmaer bashing styles.



I understand that.  So as to not sidetrack this thread, I'd be happy to PM you links to threads.  



> 1) The issue with telling people they suck is it is mostly unproductive. It doesn't help someone learn it doesn't help there confidence it does not improve there training.
> 
> 2) It is designed to make the person saying it feel better.
> 
> 3) If I  went around telling people they sucked my coach would drop me on my head.



1) Ok, ok...maybe saying the word 'suck' was a bit rough.  How about telling someone that they're not performing their material well, that they need to put more power into what they're doing, not be so sloppy with stances, that they need to put more effort into what they're doing?  Whatever choice of wording you decide to use, we, as teachers, should not fear telling a student their performance is poor.  Again, why sugarcoat something?  

2) Actually, as a teacher, its our job to teach and make sure our students are learning correctly.  I makes me feel good to see them progress.  But again, if they're not doing something right, I'm going to tell them.  That doesn't make me a bad guy.  Not saying anything, is doing more of a dis-service, both to the student and the teacher!

3) Ok.  And as I said, since 'sucked' was a poor choice, I think you know what I'm talking about.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Of course, if someone asks, either in person or on a forum, my opinion of a good art, qualities, etc, I'm going to give them an honest opinion.  Sorry to offend people...I didn't realize so many folks today, are made of glass, but I c all it like I see it  I'm tired of sugar coating something, just to make someone feel good.  I mean, if someone sucks, why not tell them?  Why make them walk around thinking they're good?



people don't actually want to hear this from an outside source.  generally they will only accept this from a very limited number of people: their teacher or other classmates.  But they will not accept it from others.


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Each club should be allowed to make the decision for themselves. I have no issue with child black belts some will know their stuff some won't. In all seriousness it is a hobby for most people. Let them get some reward for it.
> 
> Accepting a child black belt helps people to be humble.
> 
> ...


I seem to recall you posted:


drop bear said:


> 90% of blackbelts are jokes. I routenly demolish them in the gym in the street. I train harder,fight harder and am more physically capable because the expectation on me is higher.


So you are saying this young child is one of the 10% of black belts who is not a joke? Yep, I can see that ... not!



drop bear said:


> And they should expect to be looked on with mild amusement.
> 
> I would never consider someone else's progress a joke.


Of course not, but perhaps refer to your comment above and please explain.



drop bear said:


> Who's style have I bashed?
> 
> I am working from a mma perspective as everybody is working from their own.
> 
> ...


Mate. According to you 90% of black belts are a joke and that you routinely beat them in the ring and on the street. Isn't that saying they suck? If it isn't I'd like to know how you feel about the really bad ones.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Did I mention your name?
> 
> 
> 
> ...




1) If it wasn't directed at me why post it?  The mmaers I train with are more concerned with getting their own stuff right. Everybody trained their style because they think it is better. That has to be taken for granted.

3) I do but I still don't agree. Way back I posted as an example a down syndrome kid getting a black belt. I remembered it because another forum had that discussion the same way we are discussing kids.

How can he teach now can he fight. He is not a really real representation of the effort it takes to make it to black belt. And there same deal just let him have the belt. It is not worth crushing students who may never excel to support the egos of those who do.

That is what competition is for. (Actually that is a bit throwaway. Comps are generally pretty respectfull.)

Correcting someone so they are better is different to never grading them.


----------



## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> I seem to recall you posted:
> So you are saying this young child is one of the 10% of black belts who is not a joke? Yep, I can see that ... not!
> 
> 
> ...



You didn't understand the context.


----------



## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> 1) If it wasn't directed at me why post it?  The mmaers I train with are more concerned with getting their own stuff right. Everybody trained their style because they think it is better. That has to be taken for granted.



What?? LOL!!  So, let me get this straight.  You assume that something I said was geared to you...just because you train MMA?  LOL!  Relax dude.  Trust me, if I was gearing it to you, I'd have made my intent clear.   If you read what I said earlier, you'd have seen that I said that I enjoy MMA, I like watching it, I like going to see the fights, I have good friends that train in it, and I work out with those folks as well.  If I thought every guy that trained MMA was a DB, as you called it earlier, why would I do any of those things?  

No comment on my #2?



> 3) I do but I still don't agree. Way back I posted as an example a down syndrome kid getting a black belt. I remembered it because another forum had that discussion the same way we are discussing kids.
> 
> How can he teach now can he fight. He is not a really real representation of the effort it takes to make it to black belt. And there same deal just let him have the belt. It is not worth crushing students who may never excel to support the egos of those who do.
> 
> ...



If you were paying attention, you'd have noticed what I said to you here:

"We're not all clones of each other, so adjustments will need to be made.  A 5'3 female, trying to reach the face of a 6'2 male, is probably going to be difficult, so yes, adjustments will need to be made.  Will the fitness level of a 23yo male be different than that of a 60yo male?  Probably.  Even with age, size, sex, etc, differences, standards can still be held accordingly."

Ahh...that's what competition is for?  So, let me get this straight.  You're saying it's wrong if you don't stroke the ego of someone and make them feel good in class, handing out the belts, etc, but step into the ring and it's ok to show them that they're not all they're cracked up to be? LOL.  Don't crush their ego in the classroom, hand them that 2nd dan, but crush their ego in competition?  

And if you don't agree, that's fine.  That's your opinion, and unlike some others, I'll respect it.  We can agree to disagree.


----------



## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> 1) If it wasn't directed at me why post it?  The mmaers I train with are more concerned with getting their own stuff right. Everybody trained their style because they think it is better. That has to be taken for granted.



Remember what you said here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ash-Rank-at-a-young-age?p=1625227#post1625227

This implies that that MMA people can be DB's.  Yet in this post you say the opposite.  Like I said, every art has a few bad apples.  It doesn't mean that the art as a whole is bad, because of a few DB's.


----------



## K-man (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> You didn't understand the context.


You are right. Perhaps you could explain it to me. Just which 90% of black belts are a joke and where does a young child fit into your scenario?


----------



## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

Flying Crane said:


> people don't actually want to hear this from an outside source.  generally they will only accept this from a very limited number of people: their teacher or other classmates.  But they will not accept it from others.



You're right.  Sad thing is, I'd be willing to bet that in some cases, a teacher or classmate will refrain from saying it, out of fear of losing a student, upsetting someone, causing someone to leave, etc.  How those fragile folks go through life is beyond me.  Do they get pissed at their boss and quit their real life job, if their boss corrects them?  Pretty sad IMO, if they do.


----------



## generalneon (Mar 4, 2014)

> MJS said:
> 
> 
> > Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no?  I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others.  Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone.  I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.
> ...



Just trying to make a point about why she trains.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> I agree with you. I didn't actually say what *drop bear *quoted me as saying.


Yeah, my response was really to the part about judging between arts in general.  Apologies; I should have spelled that out or left the part where your name was mentioned.



K-man said:


> What I actually said that a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style. However, that said, I would expect *a blackbelt of any style *to be able to demonstrate their skill in an outside SD situation and I can't see an eight year old black belt doing that.
> :asian:


Not all martial arts are geared towards outside SD.  For example, would you say that about an eighty year old who just got her black sash at the tai chi class she took at the senior center?

How about a Haidong gumdo black belt or an iaido or kendo shodan?

Sure, the principles that are taught in those arts are applicable in SD, but kendo, iaido, and tai chi classes taught in senior centers do not contain self defense specific training.  Same goes for Haidong Gumdo.

And while one of my kendo students (a child, ironically) did successfully apply kendo principles to dealing with a schoolyard bully, the purpose of kendo is not self defence.  It is not even related to fighting.

Such an expectation on your part, at least worded as broadly as "all" is unrealistic.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> *"At the end of the day a black belt is not transferable. It represents a level within any particular organisation".*
> 
> and
> 
> *"... a belt is only a measure of progress within a particular style."*


Agree 100%.  I would even go so far as to say that even within a style, it will differ from school to school, but overall, I think this statement of yours is on the money.


----------



## wingchun100 (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS is right in that a teacher should be honest if something a student does "sucks," but I have found that most people won't respond well if you tell them ONLY something negative. However, add a positive in there and they are all right. I think it is because people get discourage and think to themselves, "Geez I am paying all this money and spending all this time here, and the teacher didn't have anything good to say!" So if my sifu were to say to someone "your punch isn't powerful yet but your stance is good," they wouldn't be as discouraged as if he had only criticized their punch.


----------



## ballen0351 (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Man, oh man.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I'm getting a little peeved. To look at these comments, feeling that the elitists of martial arts are poo-pooing the accomplishments of my daughter is quite frustrating.


Nobodys poo-pooing your daughter.  We are poo-pooing the practice of saying a 10 year old is the same level as a 28 yr old.  It just isn't possible.


> She has been training for nearly six years, taking at least three classes every week, usually ends up five or six per, has absorbed, processed, and enacted almost every scrap of advice towards her training, and proven her skills and knowledge at every opportunity. The tests she takes do not have any difference for any age group, you do what you gotta do to pass. She has run out of room for the trophies she has earned at tournaments, and has them lying about in her room. She helps teach the lower belts on forms and techniques, reiterating lessons that she learned from past years. Yet, somehow, due to her young age, her ranking is deemed a joke?


When she competes does she compete against adults or is it by age groups? Im sorry but if you walked into any other type of business say you contacted a mechanics shop to get an oil change and a 10 year old walksout with a wrench to change you oil you would say "Is this a joke?" My son is 8 he can change oil in a car Ive showed him hes helped me and if I asked  Im sure he could do it by himself. BUT that's not acceptable yet you think a 10 year old teaching self defense is acceptable?  Sorry but that screams belt factory.  Now it doesn't mean your daughter isn't working hard and learning but again seeing a 2nd dan 10 year old just isn't acceptable in most martial arts schools.


> Is there some magical age at which a martial artist "gets it"? What kind of actions or behavior needs to be displayed to signify that one "gets it"? If someone younger than your mystical time allotment displays that they "get it", why is that person not given the proper ranking that they clearly earned? Why do students past the age barrier that pass any test are assumed that they "get it"?


If you believe age doesn't matter then why do we have age limits for driving a car?  My son is 8 and again he knows how to drive a car he drives my old jeeps all over our property.  According to you if he can reach the pedals and see out the windshield he should get a license. There are developmental stages that need to be reached before someone is able to "get it."  She is so young she doesn't even know what she doesn't get yet.


> First and foremost, in the most simple form, martial arts are taught to defend yourself from an attack. Not to show off exotic moves, not to so Hollywood stunt work, to defend yourself.


So again your showing a lack of getting it.  If these "exotic" moves are in your style then  someone along the way deemed them important for self defense.  If not and its just for show then you need to find a new art


> No doubt, anyone untrained that comes up against my daughter is gonna get hurt. Someone much larger than her, she can hurt them and get away.


I Hope so  


> Anyone her size, and they would be getting that attacker up off the floor with a squeegee.


well I hope shes not getting into fights with other 10 year old girls since I cant think of any one else the size of a 10 year old girl but another 10 year old girl


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no?  I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others.  Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone.  I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.


Yes, but in stating that, you say "_a five year old black belt is a joke_. _ A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke_."

Which is guaranteed to make a person who's child is a five year old with a black belt or a twelve year old with a second or third degree black belt defensive.  In short, you draw the very response you bemoan by essentially insulting the students themselves.

I realize that your intent is to say that _awarding_ a black belt to a five year old or a second/third degree black belt to twelve year old is a joke, but your actual statement calls the students themselves "jokes."

There are a lot of ways that you could state your opinion; 'I am strongly opposed to the awarding of black belts to children or degrees above first to tweens and young teens' or 'the awarding of black belts to children is a bad idea because ...' would do so very nicely.

Even the assertion that schools with children earning such belts are "handing out rank" is an assumption.  It may be true in some or even many cases, but the statement implies the award earned by a child or young teen is automatically handed out.  It may not be appropriate in your opinion to award such ranks to students in those age ranges, and there are certainly compelling arguments to support that view, but unless we're acquainted with a particular school, we really don't know that the rank was handed out (as opposed to being worked for).

You are also assuming in your statement that teachers are afraid to not give out rank.  That may be true in some or even many cases, but there are instructors who are legitimate practitioners who truly believe that kids should be able to earn a black belt and who believe this for reasons that are unrelated to their school's commercial success.

In principle, I personally don't care.  As a kendo instructor, we don't use belts anyway.  In terms of teaching hapkido and self defence, I have no child students, but there are certain things in hapkido that I believe should wait for a student to be older.  This is for physiological reasons and potential for injury, not due to any opinion of what children can or cannot understand.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Remember what you said here:
> http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ash-Rank-at-a-young-age?p=1625227#post1625227
> 
> This implies that that MMA people can be DB's.  Yet in this post you say the opposite.  Like I said, every art has a few bad apples.  It doesn't mean that the art as a whole is bad, because of a few DB's.



That was to make a point I pretty clearly labeled it.

What I was trying to say is there are always going to be harder people than you. And I imagine you don't expect them to be laughing at you.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> In principle, I personally don't care.  As a kendo instructor, we don't use belts anyway.  In terms of teaching hapkido and self defence, I have no child students, but there are certain things in hapkido that I believe should wait for a student to be older.  This is for physiological reasons and potential for injury, not due to any opinion of what children can or cannot understand.



I forgot to finish this thought.  In principle, I don't care.  In practice, any school owner knows that they are under some degree of scrutiny and that issuing black belts to children will rub some people the wrong way and may potentially cast their school in the light of being a McDojo.  Those owners have to weigh the pros and cons and make their decision based on what they want for their school, as well as the environment in which their school exists.

Schools located in suburbia, particularly more affluent parts of suburbia, exist in a different environment than a school located in a city.  Like it or not, if you have no students because you're teaching self defence and your customers either want or think you're offering an alternative to little league, then you failed to do your homework or appropriately define what you are doing.

I am a proponent of kids in the martial arts, though I do think that in expanding kids programs, there has been a deterioration of instructional integrity, though I see this as a separate (though related) issue from that of attaching black cloth to the waist of a five year old.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Funny you talk about style bashing, seeing that MMA is one of the biggest offenders of that.



If you're talking about discussions on this forum, I think the bashers tend to be the MMA wannabees and fanboys, not the actual practitioners.  In general, I can't think of any of the MMA fighters that I train with who are in the habit of bashing other styles.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Originally Posted by *MJS*
> 
> Yet earlier, you said that everyone was entitled to their opinion, no?  I'm sorry that you're taking offense to the opinions of others.  Elitists..lol...no, I don't consider myself above and beyond anyone.  I'm just stating a) my opinion and b) the reality of what we see in many schools today, which is a bunch of young kids wearing black belts and watered down arts.
> 
> Yes, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do respect it. I simply have an opposing opinion, and I feel very strongly about it. With my daughter getting ready for her 2nd dan test coming up next month, it simply makes me feel like her accomplishments are being disrespected due to her young age, and I took offense to it. Not hatin', just debatin'.



I understand.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month. 





> Hey, I give props to your daughter.  At least she's doing something productive, rather than sitting on the couch, watching tv and playing video games.  However, I still can't grasp the idea of giving someone young, a BB, much less a 2nd dan.  So, you're telling me, that at 10yrs old, she can not only perform a technique or kata, but she also has a working knowledge of the ins and outs of said tech. and kata?  She understands and can give 1-2 applications for each move in a kata, she can understand how a tech. works, can adapt that tech under changing circumstances, can teach it, etc.?
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. That was my point initially. Watching her teach a lower belt a new form, she explains how the moves break down, what attacks you dodge, and the counters and attacks. She describes the action as she breaks down each move, because that was what she learned from her instructor, how he describes the attacker's actions during the form.  It just goes back to her having a top-notch teacher.



So, in your opinion, as long as all the standards are met, you see nothing wrong with the age factor?  I'm probably going to have to go with what Daniel said in his reply, but let me ask you this.  If we go with your theory, then it's very possible for someone to reach a high level black belt, at a young age.  If you walked into a school and saw someone who was 20yrs old, but was a 7th or 8th dan, would that be ok with you?






> See above and past posts from me.  I mentioned 16 at least, preferably 18, before someone gets a BB.  So, going on what you feel, you'd be perfectly fine with someone being a 5th dan under the age of 21?  No offense, but this is the attitude that I was talking about earlier...where the teacher is too afraid to say no, and the parents and child thinks that because they've trained for the average time, they should and/or better be awarded the belt.  Sorry, I call BS on that.  Furthermore, just because someone is past the age barrier, as you call it, still doesn't guarantee they'll 'get it'.  The odds would probably be a bit higher...I mean, someone who's 18, 20, 21, is probably going to grasp something a bit better than a 10yr old.
> 
> 
> 
> I do think that you're underestimating today's kids. They are far more worldly, and far brighter, than I was at that age. They can grasp the ins and outs far faster than a generation ago, and meet or exceed expectations placed upon previous generations. Then again, they could fall flat on their face, as well. It depends on the student. If they work hard, listen, learn, and display what they have learned to meet or exceed requirements, then they have earned it. It's not being awarded, it's being earned. Once again, it goes back to how well they have been trained. Teachers today have a greater wealth of knowledge, and better teaching tools, than in the past. They build off of the past teachings, put a new spin or new technology into it, and young students can grasp it easier, while staying true to the art. A 5th dan at an age before they can rent a car? Have they passed every test, put in the training, and displayed their depth of knowledge? Yes? Done. If they display the working knowledge of their art, and have put in the time at the school, then their age shouldn't be a hinderence.



Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving?  Voting? Drinking?  Working?  I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car.  So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?




> On another note...what I find interesting is you look at an art like BJJ, where it's taken people 10yrs to gain a BB, and you don't see all the crying and moaning about rank.  The place where I train now, is by far, the most traditional, old school dojo's that I've ever trained at.  Yet despite kids at that school having BB's, they're all considered junior black belts.  They'll still have to test and perform to the adult standards when they're old enough.
> 
> 
> 
> That's your choice of art, and I respect that. But what if the student can meet or exceed the adult testing standards at a younger age? Why should they be penalized for not having scurried around the surface of the planet for long enough? Do the adult black belts look down at these students, thinking that they aren't a "real" black belt yet?



My point was simply that in that art, you don't see people, of any age, worrying about rank.  Everyone trains, and they earn the rank on the standards the art has.  What is the rush?  Does it really matter if someone who starts training at 5, gets a BB by the time they're 10 or are they capable of waiting until they're 16?





> I agree that they're all about SD, fighting, etc.  Who said anything about exotic moves or Hollywood stunt work??
> 
> 
> 
> Just trying to make a point about why she trains.



Ok.


----------



## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> MJS is right in that a teacher should be honest if something a student does "sucks," but I have found that most people won't respond well if you tell them ONLY something negative. However, add a positive in there and they are all right. I think it is because people get discourage and think to themselves, "Geez I am paying all this money and spending all this time here, and the teacher didn't have anything good to say!" So if my sifu were to say to someone "your punch isn't powerful yet but your stance is good," they wouldn't be as discouraged as if he had only criticized their punch.



Of course, and my apologies for not stating that.   There certainly is nothing wrong with pointing out the good things.  My teacher does that all the time.  One class, we were doing some floor drills, going up and down the dojo, doing a series of blocks, strikes, etc.  He stopped me and made a correction with the way I was executing the block/punch.  I saw his approval when I made the correction.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving?  Voting? Drinking?  Working?  I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car.  So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?


Thank you for the credit, but that was Ballen's post.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but in stating that, you say "_a five year old black belt is a joke_. _ A 12yo 2nd or 3rd degree BB is also a joke_."
> 
> Which is guaranteed to make a person who's child is a five year old with a black belt or a twelve year old with a second or third degree black belt defensive.  In short, you draw the very response you bemoan by essentially insulting the students themselves.
> 
> ...



Points taken Dan, but yes, I do feel that it's a joke.  My wording could probably have been better.  Let me ask you this though...had I used your 2nd, more friendly option of voicing my disapproval of 5yr old BBs, do you think that the replies would be that much different?  If I say, "I disagree with giving a 5yr old a BB, because IMO, they're way too young, and they just do not have the ability to fully grasp, like someone who's older, what the belt is really all about, as well as having the ability to have a much more in depth understanding of the material."  Do you think that someone still won't take offense to that?  Maybe not like as if I said, "All 5yr old BBs are a joke!!" but given the fact that I'm still talking about their child, the fact that I disapprove, despite how much training they do per week, their understanding, etc, I'd still wager a guess feathers would be ruffled.  

Regarding the handing out rank comment.  Do you feel that what I said holds any truth, when I made the comment that some schools may cater to the child, out of fear of losing a student?  During my time teaching, I've had more than 1 parent approach me and ask why Joey is getting promoted, but their child isn't, especially since they both started at the same time.  Well ma'am, joey shows up 4-5 times a week, takes a private a month, clearly trains at home, and your child, well...I am lucky to see him twice a week, he fools around in class, doesn't seem like he trains at home...but you want me to promote him anyways?  They're either going to take the hint or they're going to get pissed off and leave.  I've seen is many times.  

As far as teachers being afraid...well, I pretty much covered that in the above reply as well.  Hey, I understand that people need to make a living, but I'd rather not devalue my school or morals because someone is upset and leaves.  IMO, I don't see anything wrong with a teacher being upfront with potential students, and making it clear from day 1, and outlining everything from attendance, to testing.

As far as the belts...well, I could take 'em or leave 'em.  When we have Arnis camps/seminars, nobody wears their belts.  The upper belts always try to mix in with the lower ranks.  It usually doesn't take much to figure out, simply by watching, who the higher belts are.  It's like I always say, impress me with your skill and knowledge, not the number of stripes on your belt.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Thank you for the credit, but that was Ballen's post.



Yeah, my bad.  I realized that too late.


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## MJS (Mar 4, 2014)

Tony Dismukes said:


> If you're talking about discussions on this forum, I think the bashers tend to be the MMA wannabees and fanboys, not the actual practitioners.  In general, I can't think of any of the MMA fighters that I train with who are in the habit of bashing other styles.



Sure, you are correct.   It's one of those "1 bad apple ruins the bunch" scenarios.  The fanboys and wannabees ruin the good with their actions.  To the outsider looking in, it makes all MMAists look bad.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> [B said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem.  Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school.  The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.  

If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 4, 2014)

Unfortunately it breaks down to :
If your paying and your child is learning and getting rank then you fell your getting your monies worth and you have bragging rights. 
If your child is in a school where children are not allowed higher ranks your still have them same bragging rights and you realize that your child will not gain those ranks until a certain age.
The perception of what a blackbelt means in the arts is so messed up that it only means something within your on school until you prove your worth in an actual situation or prove your worth to other martial arts senior instructors


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## ballen0351 (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> #1 If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem.  Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school.  The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.
> 
> #2 If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.


Ill wait for his reply for specifics but If as he says they have no difference between a junior black belt and an adult black belt then in theory it should be option 2 since in most schools a black belt should be of the skill lvl to teach a basic class.  If its option one then there is a difference between an adult rank and a junior rank even if they don't admit it


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 4, 2014)

a black belt may be a certain level of ability to do certain things but an instructor it dose not make.  some people can do but will never be able to instruct for many reasons.  maybe schools need to start having ranks and instructors certs (although I have seen instructors badges on 10 year olds also)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Points taken Dan, but yes, I do feel that it's a joke.  My wording could probably have been better.  Let me ask you this though...had I used your 2nd, more friendly option of voicing my disapproval of 5yr old BBs, do you think that the replies would be that much different?


Hard to say.  The replies may have been less indignant.  

 I still remember saying the same kinds of things to Mangoman when he posted about kids with belts years ago.  I thought that I was saying something that needed to be said.  Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, but my tone with him, looking back, generated much more heat than light.



MJS said:


> If I say, "I disagree with giving a 5yr old a BB, because IMO, they're way too young, and they just do not have the ability to fully grasp, like someone who's older, what the belt is really all about, as well as having the ability to have a much more in depth understanding of the material."  Do you think that someone still won't take offense to that?  Maybe not like as if I said, "All 5yr old BBs are a joke!!" but given the fact that I'm still talking about their child, the fact that I disapprove, despite how much training they do per week, their understanding, etc, I'd still wager a guess feathers would be ruffled.


People take offence and have their feathers ruffled by all kinds of things.  I'm not saying that we should walk on eggshells and seek never to offend.  But at the same time, we all know that there are parents who read/post on this board who have children with dan ranks and who do not have the background to know why you or I might view it as a problem.  Let's face it; a parent with a grade school student is probably significantly younger than I am and has no memory of martial arts prior to the Karate kid and the fitness/ninja craze of the eighties, which is arguably when the shift to children really happened in the States.

If our board exists to disseminate knowledge and share information in a friendly, informal fashion, it behooves us to keep in mind who might be reading our posts and whether or not our words are simply making them more defensive and causing them to dig their heels in rather than reach them and educate them.

And I certainly do not hold myself up as a saint in this area; my own past posting history is filled with comments than generate more heat than light.



MJS said:


> Regarding the handing out rank comment.  Do you feel that what I said holds any truth, when I made the comment that some schools may cater to the child, out of fear of losing a student?  During my time teaching, I've had more than 1 parent approach me and ask why Joey is getting promoted, but their child isn't, especially since they both started at the same time.  Well ma'am, joey shows up 4-5 times a week, takes a private a month, clearly trains at home, and your child, well...I am lucky to see him twice a week, he fools around in class, doesn't seem like he trains at home...but you want me to promote him anyways?  They're either going to take the hint or they're going to get pissed off and leave.  I've seen is many times.


I phrased it as I did because I think that in many cases, it does hold truth.  But I've seen enough exceptions that I'm not willing to generalize regarding kids with black belts.



MJS said:


> As far as teachers being afraid...well, I pretty much covered that in the above reply as well.  Hey, I understand that people need to make a living, but I'd rather not devalue my school or morals because someone is upset and leaves.  IMO, I don't see anything wrong with a teacher being upfront with potential students, and making it clear from day 1, and outlining everything from attendance, to testing.


Again, I phrased my comment as I did because there is truth there as well.  And I watched a former sabeom agonize over belting young kids, and finally, he gave in and adjusted his grading standards out of fear of losing students and of confrontation with parents.  On the other hand, Puunui made a very strong case for belting kids, and I seriously doubt that fear of parents reactions played any part.  And I have met very diligent instructors who firmly believe in black belts for younger students, fear playing no part in their reasoning.



MJS said:


> As far as the belts...well, I could take 'em or leave 'em.  When we have Arnis camps/seminars, nobody wears their belts.  The upper belts always try to mix in with the lower ranks.  It usually doesn't take much to figure out, simply by watching, who the higher belts are.  It's like I always say, impress me with your skill and knowledge, not the number of stripes on your belt.


We don't wear belts in kendo.  And it becomes pretty clear who senior students are to any casual onlooker.  

With hapkido students, I only use six belts: white, yellow, green, blue, red, and red/black for kids or black for adults (I don't do stripes; just name at one end and the school at the other).  I won't teach joint locking or manipulation in a children's class and I don't have enough students to even consider a separate belting program for children.  This is strictly an issue related to joint and bone development in kids.

If I did have a children's self defence program, I might consider doing that, though it would be with the understanding that the grades are for that particular program.  Would I have the kids' ranks terminate in a black belt?  I'm undecided at this point, but as it is not on my radar for the near future, I don't feel pressed to make a choice in that area.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Ill wait for his reply for specifics but If as he says they have no difference between a junior black belt and an adult black belt then in theory it should be option 2 since in most schools a black belt should be of the skill lvl to teach a basic class.  If its option one then there is a difference between an adult rank and a junior rank even if they don't admit it


I have trained in a lot of schools and in none of them are shodan/chodan students required or expected to be able to teach a basic class.  I have heard of that being the case in some arts/schools, but I would hardly consider it universal.

I don't know anything about the school where his daughter trains, so I have no opinion.  However, I used to train at a school where the owner began giving teaching duties to minor students.  This was without any real preparation for teaching and was mainly being done for the purpose of cheap labor.  It was one of the reasons that I left that school.


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## tshadowchaser (Mar 4, 2014)

Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks


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## ballen0351 (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I have trained in a lot of schools and in none of them are shodan/chodan students required or expected to be able to teach a basic class.  I have heard of that being the case in some arts/schools, but I would hardly consider it universal.
> 
> I don't know anything about the school where his daughter trains, so I have no opinion.  However, I used to train at a school where the owner began giving teaching duties to minor students.  This was without any real preparation for teaching and was mainly being done for the purpose of cheap labor.  It was one of the reasons that I left that school.


I didn't say anyone was required or expected to teach a class.  I said a basic black belt should have the ability and skill level to teach a basic class.


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## wingchun100 (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> Of course, and my apologies for not stating that.   There certainly is nothing wrong with pointing out the good things.  My teacher does that all the time.  One class, we were doing some floor drills, going up and down the dojo, doing a series of blocks, strikes, etc.  He stopped me and made a correction with the way I was executing the block/punch.  I saw his approval when I made the correction.



Well, you have to give people hope for the future or you will have one less student.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I didn't say anyone was required or expected to teach a class.  I said a basic black belt should have the ability and skill level to teach a basic class.


I know.  I said required or expected _to be able t_o teach a basic class.  I included required because I actually _do_ know of schools were shodans have some level of teaching as a requirement (though usually not soloing a class).  Of course, these are not two year black belt programs either, but generally more like five or six.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks



In my opinion, awarding kids black belts is not so much the issue as the fact that schools jumped to do so without exploring other means of building youth programs.  While I'm not against children with black belts in principle, I also don't feel that it should be a go-to solution.  I can think of a lot of ways to reward kids and build a youth program that does not require the use of that particular badge.

The problem is that nothing is more recognizable to the public as a symbol of accomplishment in the martial arts as the black belt.  And that is precisely why it was chosen: market cache.  

At this point, railing against black belts for children is like railing against knighthood for pop stars and actors.  It is institutionalized now and is not going away.  In short, it has become part of the MA landscape.

Thus I feel that it is more important to emphasize integrity in grading and honesty about what the belt represents in a particular school or art. If the belt system is designed so that a five year old can meet the requirement, then fine; make the five year old meet those requirements, whatever they may be.  If your system has different requirements based on the age of the student, then make the students meet those requirements, whatever they may be. 

Of course, if a five year old can meet the requirements, please don't ask me to pay hundreds of dollars for my kid to test.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 4, 2014)

Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 4, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.


I don't think preventing a 5 year old from an adult belt is putting it on a pedestal.  I'd say it goes for all belts a 5 yr old orange belt or blue or red or pink or purple belt shouldn't be the same as a 25 yr old.


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## generalneon (Mar 4, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Nobodys poo-pooing your daughter.  We are poo-pooing the practice of saying a 10 year old is the same level as a 28 yr old.  It just isn't possible.
> 
> I disagree. If a street fight, perhaps not, that's just physics. It's not speed that kills, it's momentum that kills, and a larger individual would have far more momentum behind their strikes than a small kid. But the other aspects, retention of knowledge, displaying forms and fighting combinations, those can be equal to an older student, it just depends on the particular students.
> 
> ...



Her training has taught her to not go looking for a fight, but if a fight finds her, to put their opponent down and make sure that they stay down, called I believe _ilsa pilgar_. Just one of the many concepts that she 'gets'.


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## generalneon (Mar 4, 2014)

MJS said:


> I understand.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> ...



Just sayin'.


----------



## generalneon (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If Generalneon means that his daughter being a good senior to her juniors, then I don't see the problem.  Kids who are at the head of their class helping kids who are not is not uncommon in school.  The idea of students being a 'teacher's assistant' is also not unheard of in grade school.
> 
> If Generalneon means that his daughter is acting in the role of an instructor who is under the supervision of a senior instructor, then the school is engaging in a practice that I do not endorse.



There's a couple things going on with that. The teacher breaks down class by rank and assign various seniors to work on a particular form, one-step, etc. They are seeing if the juniors are showing respect to their senior as they learn, and the seniors are being observed as to whether or not they show maturity and poise in a leadership role. Plus, the seniors are being given a taste of teaching and seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future.


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## ballen0351 (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> I disagree. If a street fight, perhaps not, that's just physics. It's not speed that kills, it's momentum that kills, and a larger individual would have far more momentum behind their strikes than a small kid. But the other aspects, retention of knowledge, displaying forms and fighting combinations, those can be equal to an older student, it just depends on the particular students.


If that were true we would have a bunch of 10 year old college students running around.  Maybe your kids a prodigy but we have a bunch of TKd schools in my town and I see kids in black belts all the time I cant imagine they are all prodigies. There is just to big of a difference developmentally both physical and mental between a10 yr old and a 20 yr old.  Which is why we have all the laws protecting kids because they are not adults. I teach kids a totally different curriculum then adults.  Why? because a kid cant generate enough force needed to complete certain techniques effectively so why show them until they are older and more capable. Instead I teach them more relevant and age appropriate things related to self defense.  Self defense for a 5 year old had different needs then self defense then a 20 yr old.   


> Core competitions are done with age groups,


 Why? if shes is just as good why do they have age groups? 


> but competition for grand champion is open to all black belts. The analogy of a kid being employed and wrenching on a car is really getting off subject. There are national laws forbidding that. I'm sure that my kid could swing a mattock underground at the coal mine that her grandfather works at, but it would be illegal.


Why do we have laws protecting kids?  According to you if a kid can do the move or swing the hammer its all that matters.


> If your kid drives around on the streets, and gets pulled over, then they are breaking the law.


why according to you age doesn't matter right?


> Who exactly are the martial arts police? You?


nope someone asked for an opinion and I gave it.  It really don't matter to me what they teach at your school or what color belt you daughter wears


> Different schools of martial arts have different rules that all members must follow, and if an age requirement for advancement is one of the rules, so be it, everyone has to follow their rules. However, if the concepts are grasped and displayed to satisfaction to a panel of judges, both physically and mentally, and their is no existingrule against age requirements, then their age should not be the deciding factor as to whether or not they earned advancement.


except both mentally and physically age does matter so it cant be the same. 


> That was me making a point about the martial artist elitist attitude of, "This kid is too young to share the floor with me, maybe they'd be better served taking ballet lessons, and leaving the martial arts to the real martial artists. Now get off the floor, you're taking up valuable kicking room."


No martial art elitist here and kids don't take up any room in my training since we dont train kids and adults at the same time because it becomes to simple for the adults or to hard for the kids. So it has nothing to do with sharing the floor and more to do with the nonsense of a kid thinking they are adults.  I went to an elementary school to assist my Sensei with a career day.  At the time I was a brown belt.  As we walked in to a 4th grade class I heard a little girl tell her friend she was a black belt at her school and she could kick my butt.  


> Her training has taught her to not go looking for a fight, but if a fight finds her, to put their opponent down and make sure that they stay down, called I believe _ilsa pilgar_. Just one of the many concepts that she 'gets'.


until due to her size and limitations of age she cant then what?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

generalneon said:


> There's a couple things going on with that. The teacher breaks down class by rank and assign various seniors to work on a particular form, one-step, etc. They are seeing if the juniors are showing respect to their senior as they learn, and the seniors are being observed as to whether or not they show maturity and poise in a leadership role. Plus, the seniors are being given a taste of teaching and seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future.



Okay, so it is observation of leadership and senior students being good seniors to their juniors.  

I presume that the part about seeing if they may want to pursue teaching in the future means distant future for a young teen or tween.  

While I do not feel that age is an issue for a black piece of cloth, I do feel that teaching not only requires a level of maturity that is unusual in teens, tweens, and children, but also that the instructor be _at least_of the age of majority.  Preferably, mid twenties or greater.

There are a number of reasons for this, some of which revolve around the instructor and some of which revolve around the perception of the instructor.  Typically, a teen has difficulty controlling a class.  Partly because of lessons a teen has typically not learned at that stage of life and partly because the students and/or parents of students perceive him or her as a kid.


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## K-man (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not all martial arts are geared towards outside SD.  For example, would you say that about an eighty year old who just got her black sash at the tai chi class she took at the senior center?
> 
> How about a Haidong gumdo black belt or an iaido or kendo shodan?
> 
> ...


Of course you are right. I should have qualified my reply. However, my intent was possibly more realistic in that black belt exponents of any martial art who claim their art can be used for self defence should be able to demonstrate their expertise in a nasty situation if required to do so. I would include TKD in that category. In our karate it would take about eight years to get to Nidan and the same for aikido. 
:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

K-man said:


> Of course you are right. I should have qualified my reply. However, my intent was possibly more realistic in that black belt exponents of any martial art who claim their art can be used for self defence should be able to demonstrate their expertise in a nasty situation if required to do so. I would include TKD in that category. In our karate it would take about eight years to get to Nidan and the same for aikido.
> :asian:


I don't know that I fully agree, but I think that that is a very reasonable viewpoint. 

Where I differ is that not all arts have the same training time to first degree.  As I mentioned earlier, in Korea, it takes one year.  And that is apparently not a recent phenomenon.  You cannot reasonably compare a one to two year student with a four to six year student.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, in at least KKW TKD, a first degree is not considered a high grade.  It is considered a beginning degree.

Now, having said that, a one to two year student is not (or at least should not be) a rank beginner and should have enough trained in to be able to, as you say, demonstrate their expertise (or at least proficiency) in a nasty situation when required to do so.  I was not a long time student in TKD as a kid and was no black belt, and was able to do so.

As far as kids with degrees of that nature go, I would expect them to be able to do what they reasonably can when things get nasty.  The sort of circumstances that young kids are most likely to face are either schoolyard bullies or adult predators.  

While a child is at a severe disadvantage when dealing with an adult predator, there are strategies that a child, even a five year old, can learn and 'get' well enough to apply.

Of course, a child would have to be getting instruction in those kinds of things and drilling in them regularly, and based on what I see of most kids MA classes, they're more fitness and sport oriented.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know that I fully agree, but I think that that is a very reasonable viewpoint.
> 
> Where I differ is that not all arts have the same training time to first degree.  As I mentioned earlier, in Korea, it takes one year.  And that is apparently not a recent phenomenon.  You cannot reasonably compare a one to two year student with a four to six year student.
> 
> ...



But if you were being equal. None of us would fare well against an attacker twice our body weight. You still train the child but it will be low percentage by nature.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> But if you were being equal. None of us would fare well against an attacker twice our body weight.


An attacker twice my 220 pound body weight would hard pressed to catch me without having a heart attack and would likely have some serious mobility issues.



drop bear said:


> You still train the child but it will be low percentage by nature.


Low percentage of what?

In any case, most of what you train a child for is to build the foundation by getting the muscle memory in them when they're really in the zone for learning pretty much anything and have gobs of flexibility.

Self defence for children against adult predators should focus on strategies to A) avoid them, and B) to escape from them, particularly before they get the kid into a vehicle.

No strategy is guaranteed, even for an adult.  And yes, a well trained child is at a severe disadvantage against an adult predator.  

But then, that has nothing to do with belts.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> An attacker twice my 220 pound body weight would hard pressed to catch me without having a heart attack and would likely have some serious mobility issues.
> 
> 
> Low percentage of what?
> ...



Low percentage meaning a severe disadvantage. Just a me terminology thing. Nothing is guaranteed to work nothing is guaranteed to fail. So low high percentage.

I think there would be two threats to children stranger danger and bullying. For stranger danger avoidance and awareness is key. For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> I think there would be two threats to children stranger danger and bullying.


Yeah, I just said that. 



drop bear said:


> For stranger danger avoidance and awareness is key.


I touched on that, as well as discussing escaping the predator before they can get the child away, and particularly before getting put into a vehicle.

The awareness/stranger danger is something that can be learned without a martial art, but which certainly should be a part of any children's self defence class.  



drop bear said:


> For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order.


Might be.  Of course one of the benefits of the martial arts is frequently a difference in how the student carries themselves, which makes them less appealing to the bully than they might otherwise be.  

I see a *lot* of anti bullying things being promoted as part of the kids MA classes in my area.  I don't honestly know what they're specifically doing, so I cannot comment as to the quality of the material.  But it is the sort of thing that should be one of the major focuses of children's self defence, and which is less likely to be touched on in an adult class.

Self defence/self protection needs are different for kids than they are for adults, so the classes should be different.  Though this, again, has nothing to do with the topic of black belts and children.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yeah, I just said that.
> 
> 
> I touched on that, as well as discussing escaping the predator before they can get the child away, and particularly before getting put into a vehicle.
> ...



We'll my original point was that there are child pro fighters. So a black belt should not be that much of a stretch.

But then everybody complained.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> We'll my original point was that there are child pro fighters. So a black belt should not be that much of a stretch.
> 
> But then everybody complained.


Belts are used for competition bracketing in a number of arts.  The ATA has five year to seven year old black belt divisions.  WTF tournaments are bracketed by belts as well.  While I'm not aware of children in the pros, children have been wrestling in tournaments for decades.  

But bracketing not withstanding, belts are really about the student's progress and how that progress is tracked in a particular school and/or a particular organization.

And as others here have probably already pointed out, contest fighting is not the same as self defence.  In contest fighting, the contestants are as equal as they can reasonably be; same weight, same gender, same belt, etc.  

None of what you and I discussed regarding adult predators or bullies has any direct correlation to contest fighting.  

You mentioned bullying, saying, "_For bullying possibly the careful use of cracking heads might be in order_," and I said might be.  While the skills in contest fighting might be utilized if things get physical, bullying is largely mental and emotional, using a threat, possibly of violence, but not necessarily, to intimidate the victim.    

So is a black belt on a child much of a stretch?  Again, depends on the art, organization, and/or the school and what the belt represents in the context of that art, organization, and/or school.


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## drop bear (Mar 4, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Belts are used for competition bracketing in a number of arts.  The ATA has five year to seven year old black belt divisions.  WTF tournaments are bracketed by belts as well.  While I'm not aware of children in the pros, children have been wrestling in tournaments for decades.
> 
> But bracketing not withstanding, belts are really about the student's progress and how that progress is tracked in a particular school and/or a particular organization.
> 
> ...





Contest fighting as an indication they understand the techniques and the concepts behind them. Which is generally the counter argument to a child black belt. Whether or not a child could reasonably mentor an adult in a martial art.


And my point is if they are dedicated enough to be a pro fighter they have the capacity to be a black belt.

All training is of course not the same as self defence.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 4, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Contest fighting as an indication they understand the techniques and the concepts behind them.


Or that they don't and they lose a lot.



drop bear said:


> Which is generally the counter argument to a child black belt.



Actually, it isn't.  The general counter argument is that the test for a  child is not the same test as for an adult, thus the child should not  earn the same rank.  The whole understanding issue comes up when people demonstrate that either a child can pass the same test (albeit with sparring partners in their own age range) or that adults receive accommodations too. 



drop bear said:


> Whether or not a child could reasonably mentor an adult in a martial art.


Personally, I consider that to be problematic.  While there are always exceptions, as a general rule, children do not have the capacity to mentor adults and adults are resistant to being mentored by children.



drop bear said:


> And my point is if they are dedicated enough to be a pro fighter they have the capacity to be a black belt.


My shodan grading had an essay requirement.  It was unrelated to how well I could fight or my level of dedication.  

Not all schools grade by the same standards.  Some grade you based on qualities other than just the physical skills, while with others, it's all about physical skills.  

So I reiterate, it depends on the school/org/art.  Just because a student, be they a child or not, can do well in one area, it does not automatically follow that they'll do well in others.  

Of course, this conversation is academic for me.  I don't have an issue with children wearing black belts.



drop bear said:


> All training is of course not the same as self defence.


Agreed.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

drop bear said:


> That was to make a point I pretty clearly labeled it.
> 
> What I was trying to say is there are always going to be harder people than you. And I imagine you don't expect them to be laughing at you.



I figured that's what you were talking about.   And I agree...there's always someone going to be bigger, badder, etc, and that's fine.  OTOH, if someone mocks an art that I do, then it is what it is.  Whether or not I like it is moot, as I just keep moving on.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Hard to say.  The replies may have been less indignant.
> 
> I still remember saying the same kinds of things to Mangoman when he posted about kids with belts years ago.  I thought that I was saying something that needed to be said.  Maybe I was, maybe I wasn't, but my tone with him, looking back, generated much more heat than light.



You're correct.  




> People take offence and have their feathers ruffled by all kinds of things.  I'm not saying that we should walk on eggshells and seek never to offend.  But at the same time, we all know that there are parents who read/post on this board who have children with dan ranks and who do not have the background to know why you or I might view it as a problem.  Let's face it; a parent with a grade school student is probably significantly younger than I am and has no memory of martial arts prior to the Karate kid and the fitness/ninja craze of the eighties, which is arguably when the shift to children really happened in the States.
> 
> If our board exists to disseminate knowledge and share information in a friendly, informal fashion, it behooves us to keep in mind who might be reading our posts and whether or not our words are simply making them more defensive and causing them to dig their heels in rather than reach them and educate them.
> 
> And I certainly do not hold myself up as a saint in this area; my own past posting history is filled with comments than generate more heat than light.



Can't dispute that.   While I really don't like to sugar coat anything or say something as a 'feel good' I do understand that it is possible to still get your point across without being too blunt.   Of course, while we do at times, attempt to educate those that are not as experienced, it'd be nice if more dojos were less willing to hand things out.  Yes, I know this is asking for a lot, however, some school owners are just as guilty of doing things to make people feel good. But we know this as it's been hashed and rehashed so no sense in repeating. 




> I phrased it as I did because I think that in many cases, it does hold truth.  But I've seen enough exceptions that I'm not willing to generalize regarding kids with black belts.



Ok.  For me, I just can't, and probably never will, be able to wrap my head around the fact that a school can promote a young child to the BB level, claim they're on the same level as an adult, and said child be capable of having a full understanding and in depth working knowledge of the material, such as an older BB student.  Of course, I'm fine with the Jr. BB ranks, as they're not considered full adult BBs, and in time, will continue to advance their knowledge.  People try to justify the BB rank to a kid by saying, "But he/she knows all the material and performs sharp and crisp."  Yes, ok, but there's a difference between doing the material and really knowing it.  




> Again, I phrased my comment as I did because there is truth there as well.  And I watched a former sabeom agonize over belting young kids, and finally, he gave in and adjusted his grading standards out of fear of losing students and of confrontation with parents.  On the other hand, Puunui made a very strong case for belting kids, and I seriously doubt that fear of parents reactions played any part.  And I have met very diligent instructors who firmly believe in black belts for younger students, fear playing no part in their reasoning.



Ok.




> We don't wear belts in kendo.  And it becomes pretty clear who senior students are to any casual onlooker.
> 
> With hapkido students, I only use six belts: white, yellow, green, blue, red, and red/black for kids or black for adults (I don't do stripes; just name at one end and the school at the other).  I won't teach joint locking or manipulation in a children's class and I don't have enough students to even consider a separate belting program for children.  This is strictly an issue related to joint and bone development in kids.
> 
> If I did have a children's self defence program, I might consider doing that, though it would be with the understanding that the grades are for that particular program.  Would I have the kids' ranks terminate in a black belt?  I'm undecided at this point, but as it is not on my radar for the near future, I don't feel pressed to make a choice in that area.



I guess the main issue I have, is from years of seeing young kids not being capable of grasping the material, yet they are promoted.  Personally I'm not fond of a 3yr old training in the first place, and were I to own my own school, I wouldn't take kids that young, despite it being a huge source of income.  IMO, when the $ is placed higher than the other things, ie: not watering down, devaluing things, that's just wrong, IMO.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

tshadowchaser said:


> Lets face it, many of us do not like the idea of a child black belt but the truth in the matter is most schools are supported by youth programs and if ranking the kids keeps the parents bringing them back then schools will continue to give out the ranks



My current teacher has a kids program and well as older kids who have black belts.  Funny though...in the going on 3yrs that I've been there, it's amazing to see the difference in the kids compared to other schools I'm familiar with.  I'll have to ask my teacher what's the youngest that he's awarded a BB to.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Well, you have to give people hope for the future or you will have one less student.



Agreed!


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Should the black belt be placed on a pedestal the way it often is in the USA? Perhaps it should be seen as just another belt. I especially don't see why the black belt would be placed on a pedestal if your instructor is from Japan, as mine is.



Because a long time ago, the BB meant something more than what it means today.  My teacher is from Japan, and has said to me many times, while chatting after class, that he would not feel right about awarding any rank, especially the BB, if the person didn't deserve it.  As ballen said, it's not just the BB, but any rank.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

generalneon said:


> I understand.  We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this, but hopefully her test is a success next month.
> 
> Thank you.



You're welcome. 






> So, in your opinion, as long as all the standards are met, you see nothing wrong with the age factor?  I'm probably going to have to go with what Daniel said in his reply, but let me ask you this.  If we go with your theory, then it's very possible for someone to reach a high level black belt, at a young age.  If you walked into a school and saw someone who was 20yrs old, but was a 7th or 8th dan, would that be ok with you?
> 
> Let's see their skill set and decide if it's valid or not. The proof is on the mat.



I'll agree with you that the proof is on the mat. Like I've said, it's the skill, knowledge, understanding, ability to teach, have the in depth knowledge, etc, that matters more than the stripes.  I probably would question the sight of a 20yr old 8th dan.  To me, I see an older person, someone in their 50's, 60's, etc, someone who's put in upwards of 30-40yrs of training, not someone who began at 5, got their first dan at 9, and is now an 8th dan at 20.  








> Then as Daniel said, why have an age restriction for driving?  Voting? Drinking?  Working?  I think you may have just answered my question that I asked above this, but you said a 5th dan before they rent a car.  So, am I safe to assume that you would be cool with someone in their early to mid 20's, being a 7th, 8th, 9th dan?
> 
> If they have attained the skills to acquire it, yes. Once again, the proof is on the mat.



See my above reply. 






> My point was simply that in that art, you don't see people, of any age, worrying about rank.  Everyone trains, and they earn the rank on the standards the art has.  What is the rush?  Does it really matter if someone who starts training at 5, gets a BB by the time they're 10 or are they capable of waiting until they're 16?
> 
> Worried, no. No real rush through it, however I don't believe that age should be the ultimate predetermining factor as to whether or not a student has acquired the sufficient skills and knowledge to advance in rank.



Ok.  My above reply probably covers this too.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> Ok.  For me, I just can't, and probably never will, be able to wrap my head around the fact that a school can promote a young child to the BB level, claim they're on the same level as an adult, and said child be capable of having a full understanding and in depth working knowledge of the material, such as an older BB student.  Of course, I'm fine with the Jr. BB ranks, as they're not considered full adult BBs, and in time, will continue to advance their knowledge.  People try to justify the BB rank to a kid by saying, "But he/she knows all the material and performs sharp and crisp."  Yes, ok, but there's a difference between doing the material and really knowing it.



Okay, the top argument against children with black belts that I have seen on boards over the years is that the kid can't complete the test.  That is demonstrably false; I've seen kids complete the same test the adults complete, right down to the number of kicks.  My girlfriend's nephew went through one of those two day boot camp style tests.  It was a challenging test.  Equally challenging as the adult test.  

So the next argument is that the kids can't perform the moves with power or crispness.  That is also demonstrably false.  Youtube is chock full of crisp and well performing kids.

So the next argument against kids with black belts is depth, knowledge, and maturity.  Surely, no child could possibly be on par with the average adult in these areas.  But let's be honest.  Really honest:  How much depth does the average adult shodan _really _have?  Based on what I've seen, and lets not forget that it is adult black belts who are perpetrating this whole idea of kids with belts in the first place, the average adult doesn't have much, if any more depth of knowledge in these areas than the kids do.  And given that kids are at the age when they are most able to learn diverse things, you'd be surprised at how much depth a kid might have.  

I've seen a lot of kids with surprising depth of knowledge in areas more intellectually complex than martial arts.

So the last line of reasoning against the idea of children with black belt is that a child cannot beat up an adult.  If you really want the same test, then you have to force these tykes to spar grown ups in full contact sparring.  Unarmed in bare feet and without his fellow cops or soldiers or radio to call for back up.  This is a straw man argument as well.  The adults who make this argument are not expected to face similarly impossible odds at their test.  

And for some reason, the same people who make these arguments don't seem to have any issue with the awarding of a black belt to an eighty year old who decides to take up a martial art for the first time.  If that eighty year old gets through the training and the test, I guarantee that his/her opponents are careful not to go full boar on them due to the much greater risk of serious injury that an eighty year old has.  

I've seen first hand morbidly obese, but otherwise capable students, and students with particular health issues given accommodations on their tests as well. 

As an aside, comparing karate class to driving a motor vehicle, voting, joining the army, or consuming alcohol is an attempt at creating a false equivalency.  The laws that are in place for those things are driven by factors other than simple age.  Internationally, the ages of such things are not consistent anyway.  And Ballen's eight year old in a Jeep is probably no less qualified to be on the roads than at least half of the people on the road in my area.  In fact, she might be better than many.  In any case, prior to industrialization, kids were considered adults at a much, much younger age than they are now.  

So really, the issue is not that kid can't have the same grade as an adult.  The real issue is that the grades are seen by many as being literally handed out to unqualified students in order to turn a profit (see below).



MJS said:


> I guess the main issue I have, is from years of seeing young kids not being capable of grasping the material, yet they are promoted.


I cannot stress this enough:  This is *not *a kid issue.  This is a grading integrity issue.  And the same schools that pass unqualified kids are passing unqualified adults.  Who are getting a free pass from the 'no kiddie belt' crowd simply because they're adults.

Really, the devaluing of the grades that people complain about is not because of the age of the recipient but because of the lack of integrity in the grading process which is not related to age of the candidates.  Adults will always come across as being more able and more knowledgeable than children simply because other adults are predisposed to assume that they are.  But I guarantee you that the same schools that are churning out kiddie black belts who aren't qualified are churning out adult black belts who aren't qualified.



MJS said:


> Personally I'm not fond of a 3yr old training in the first place, and were I to own my own school, I wouldn't take kids that young, despite it being a huge source of income.  IMO, when the $ is placed higher than the other things, ie: not watering down, devaluing things, that's just wrong, IMO.


On the other hand, students beginning at three is hardly unheard of in Asia.  I see nothing wrong with training three year olds, with the caveat that the school needs to have an appropriate program and should be conforming to all of the same standards that anyone else working with kids that young should be conforming to in whatever locale the school is in.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

Having said all that in my last post, I want to emphasize that if others feel differently, I respect their opinions in that area.  I don't think that people who have set age requirements for grades should suddenly suspend them.  

And in spite of my not being opposed to the idea of kids in black belts, it is not an idea that I endorse.  I simply don't see the age as the real issue, but instead see a lack of grading integrity as the issue.  Kids are a huge market, so there are a lot more of them and they tend to become the focal point of this frustration because of that.

But lets not forget that it is actually not the kids who are at fault here.  It is profit savvy adults who have high grades, often above seventh dan, who are the perpetrators of this dynamic.


----------



## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Okay, the top argument against children with black belts that I have seen on boards over the years is that the kid can't complete the test.  That is demonstrably false; I've seen kids complete the same test the adults complete, right down to the number of kicks.  My girlfriend's nephew went through one of those two day boot camp style tests.  It was a challenging test.  Equally challenging as the adult test.



Personally, I'm not a fan of the marathon, multi day tests.  Oh yes, I've taken part in them, but I don't feel that a 2 day test is necessary, but that's just me.  To each their own.  What I'm about to say next, is something I said earlier to drop bear, and it'll most likely apply to other parts of your post here.  Nothing says that adjustments/modifications can't be made.  I used the analogy of a 5'3 woman, trying to strike the face of a 6'3 male.  Probably isn't going to happen, and when I've taught techniques to smaller people, male and female alike, I've made adjustments for them.  So, do the kids have to test the same way as adults?  No.  You can adjust the requirements.  Of course, still maintain the quality.   



> So the next argument is that the kids can't perform the moves with power or crispness.  That is also demonstrably false.  Youtube is chock full of crisp and well performing kids.



You are correct. 



> So the next argument against kids with black belts is depth, knowledge, and maturity.  Surely, no child could possibly be on par with the average adult in these areas.  But let's be honest.  Really honest:  How much depth does the average adult shodan _really _have?  Based on what I've seen, and lets not forget that it is adult black belts who are perpetrating this whole idea of kids with belts in the first place, the average adult doesn't have much, if any more depth of knowledge in these areas than the kids do.  And given that kids are at the age when they are most able to learn diverse things, you'd be surprised at how much depth a kid might have.
> 
> I've seen a lot of kids with surprising depth of knowledge in areas more intellectually complex than martial arts.



I can agree with that to a point, but I'd also say that a lot comes down to a) the teacher and how well they explain things, making sure they engrain this knowledge to their students, and b) how much the student does on their own.  I mean, there comes a time when the student has to start figuring things out on their own.  For example: the rank requirements for the Arnis org. that I'm a part of.  All the material is laid out clear as day on the website.  As long as the student does those required things, they'll move along accordingly.  Of course, there're also time in grade standards as well as classes attended.  I tested quite a while ago for my Black, and I passed.  I asked one of my teachers one day, "So, what is there to learn after black?" He said not much as far as physical techs, kata, etc, go, however, he said that what needs to happen now, is that the student needs to start expanding on what they already know.  It's like BJJ.  Sure, there're upper level techs, but the bottom line is, a BB in BJJ is doing the same techs a Blue belt in BJJ is, only much better.   They've got the deeper understanding.  



> So the last line of reasoning against the idea of children with black belt is that a child cannot beat up an adult.  If you really want the same test, then you have to force these tykes to spar grown ups in full contact sparring.  Unarmed in bare feet and without his fellow cops or soldiers or radio to call for back up.  This is a straw man argument as well.  The adults who make this argument are not expected to face similarly impossible odds at their test.



Well, I don't believe I ever  said anything about beating anyone up, so.....

but since you brought it up...if sparring is something that is done at the school, the student should demonstrate their skill accordingly.  Kids spar other kids on tests at my dojo and adults other adults.  Everyone does fine.  Of course, if you're testing for a higher rank, it's pretty much expected that you fight accordingly. 



> And for some reason, the same people who make these arguments don't seem to have any issue with the awarding of a black belt to an eighty year old who decides to take up a martial art for the first time.  If that eighty year old gets through the training and the test, I guarantee that his/her opponents are careful not to go full boar on them due to the much greater risk of serious injury that an eighty year old has.



See my above comments regarding adjusting.  Furthermore, I don't believe I ever said anything about that.  This, IMO, is probably along the lines of giving someone an 'honorary award.' 



> I've seen first hand morbidly obese, but otherwise capable students, and students with particular health issues given accommodations on their tests as well.



Ditto.



> As an aside, comparing karate class to driving a motor vehicle, voting, joining the army, or consuming alcohol is an attempt at creating a false equivalency.  The laws that are in place for those things are driven by factors other than simple age.  Internationally, the ages of such things are not consistent anyway.  And Ballen's eight year old in a Jeep is probably no less qualified to be on the roads than at least half of the people on the road in my area.  In fact, she might be better than many.  In any case, prior to industrialization, kids were considered adults at a much, much younger age than they are now.




I wasn't the one who mentioned that initially. But since you mention it..I take it you have no huge issues with a kid BB? 



> So really, the issue is not that kid can't have the same grade as an adult.  The real issue is that the grades are seen by many as being literally handed out to unqualified students in order to turn a profit (see below).



That's part of it, but IMO, it probably happens more than we wish to admit.  




> I cannot stress this enough:  This is *not *a kid issue.  This is a grading integrity issue.  And the same schools that pass unqualified kids are passing unqualified adults.  Who are getting a free pass from the 'no kiddie belt' crowd simply because they're adults.
> 
> Really, the devaluing of the grades that people complain about is not because of the age of the recipient but because of the lack of integrity in the grading process which is not related to age of the candidates.  Adults will always come across as being more able and more knowledgeable than children simply because other adults are predisposed to assume that they are.  But I guarantee you that the same schools that are churning out kiddie black belts who aren't qualified are churning out adult black belts who aren't qualified.



Ok.




> On the other hand, students beginning at three is hardly unheard of in Asia.  I see nothing wrong with training three year olds, with the caveat that the school needs to have an appropriate program and should be conforming to all of the same standards that anyone else working with kids that young should be conforming to in whatever locale the school is in.



You're right.  Of course, the entire mentality is different.


----------



## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Having said all that in my last post, I want to emphasize that if others feel differently, I respect their opinions in that area.  I don't think that people who have set age requirements for grades should suddenly suspend them.
> 
> And in spite of my not being opposed to the idea of kids in black belts, it is not an idea that I endorse.  I simply don't see the age as the real issue, but instead see a lack of grading integrity as the issue.  Kids are a huge market, so there are a lot more of them and they tend to become the focal point of this frustration because of that.
> 
> But lets not forget that it is actually not the kids who are at fault here.  It is profit savvy adults who have high grades, often above seventh dan, who are the perpetrators of this dynamic.



So, if you were able to change things, what would you propose?  Am I safe to assume that you're somewhat ok with young kids having BB's, but an overhaul of the grading standards?  If that is the case, what would the standards be for a youth? An adult?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> Personally, I'm not a fan of the marathon, multi day tests.  Oh yes, I've taken part in them, but I don't feel that a 2 day test is necessary, but that's just me.


I'm not a fan of such tests either.



MJS said:


> I can agree with that to a point, but I'd also say that a lot comes down to a) the teacher and how well they explain things, making sure they engrain this knowledge to their students, and b) how much the student does on their own.  I mean, there comes a time when the student has to start figuring things out on their own.  For example: the rank requirements for the Arnis org. that I'm a part of.  All the material is laid out clear as day on the website.  As long as the student does those required things, they'll move along accordingly.  Of course, there're also time in grade standards as well as classes attended.  I tested quite a while ago for my Black, and I passed.  I asked one of my teachers one day, "So, what is there to learn after black?" He said not much as far as physical techs, kata, etc, go, however, he said that what needs to happen now, is that the student needs to start expanding on what they already know.  It's like BJJ.  Sure, there're upper level techs, but the bottom line is, a BB in BJJ is doing the same techs a Blue belt in BJJ is, only much better.   They've got the deeper understanding.


Agreed. 



MJS said:


> Well, I don't believe I ever  said anything about beating anyone up, so.....
> 
> Furthermore, I don't believe I ever said anything about that.


You did not.  I was referencing the arguments that I've seen on the boards, both MT and in other places, over the years.




MJS said:


> I wasn't the one who mentioned that initially. But since you mention it..I take it you have no huge issues with a kid BB?


It's not what I would do, but no I don't.  So long as there is integrity in grading.  

Just as I don't believe in elevating the black belt to unrealistic levels, I also don't believe that the standards for attaining one should be dumbed down either.  So a child earns a black belt.  That's one thing.  However, swaths of grade school aged kids regularly being promoted to shodan is a red flag to me.  




MJS said:


> That's part of it, but IMO, it probably happens more than we wish to admit.


I think that it probably happens a lot.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> So, if you were able to change things, what would you propose?


I don't actually look to change anything.  I do what I do the way that I do it because I don't feel that it would be honest to do otherwise.  For starters, I don't have any students younger than about fourteen.  I don't charge for grading either.



MJS said:


> Am I safe to assume that you're somewhat ok with young kids having BB's, but an overhaul of the grading standards?


I'd say that that is fairly accurate.



MJS said:


> If that is the case, what would the standards be for a youth? An adult?



The standard to me is that the student show proficiency in what they have learned and that they understand what they have learned.  

 A shodan/ildan/equivalent candidate should be able to receive (uke/uchidachi/motodachi/whatever your art's term is) for junior students and should be able to answer questions posed to them by their junior partner about the nature of the technique(s) being practiced.

The candidate should be consistent in displaying good etiquette in class and set an example to juniors.

In kata, they should not only be able to perform the technical portions of the kata, but perform them in the proper way.  In other words, with proper pacing, breathing, zanshin, etc.  

Finally, in an art with free sparring, they should show in their bout that they can maintain composure, maintain mental strength, and utilize the techniques and strategies that they have learned in an unscripted setting.  

If a child can meet those standards, then I am okay with a child earning the grade.  I don't see the standard as being different based on age.  The difference is in how the class is structured.

Different art will have different needs in this regard.  If I am teaching hapkido, I will not put a black belt on a child.  Not because a child is incapable of learning/understanding the techniques, but because I will not teach joint locks/manipulation to children for safety reasons.  Because the child has not learned the material, I cannot give him/her a test on the material.  I generally don't think that that kind of thing should be taught to kids until they're in their early to mid teens.  

That issue is not present in Kukkiwon taekwondo, however, so the need is different.

Kids classes need to be structured for kids.  Most importantly, kids should not be hurried.  

Finally, I don't feel that the black belt should be held up as more or diminished to less than what it is in a particular art.  In KKW/WTF TKD, an ildan is literally a beginning grade.  Not a rank beginner, but a beginner in the art.  In BJJ, it is a very different grade.  The KKW ildan should not be elevated to represent what it does in a BJJ school, and a BJJ shodan should not be diminished to represent what it does in a KKW TKD school.

So be honest about the student's progress, be clear about what your school's standards are, and be true to what your art's standards are.  And do not connect grading with money (no, I am not saying never to charge for a grading, even though I personally do not).


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> > It's not what I would do, but no I don't.  So long as there is integrity in grading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> > Ok.  I suppose I could go along with that.
> ...


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't actually look to change anything.  I do what I do the way that I do it because I don't feel that it would be honest to do otherwise.  For starters, I don't have any students younger than about fourteen.  I don't charge for grading either.



Sounds fair to me.   Personally, if I were to have my own school, I'd probably set a limit of 14 as well.




> I'd say that that is fairly accurate.



ok.





> The standard to me is that the student show proficiency in what they have learned and that they understand what they have learned.
> 
> A shodan/ildan/equivalent candidate should be able to receive (uke/uchidachi/motodachi/whatever your art's term is) for junior students and should be able to answer questions posed to them by their junior partner about the nature of the technique(s) being practiced.
> 
> ...



All sounds fair to me.   Someone said earlier, my apologies for not recalling who, maybe tshadowchaser, said that kid/youth black belts are pretty much here to stay, like or not.  So, that said, I would probably be more in favor of it, if the things that you mentioned in your posts, were actually used.  This isn't to say that some school who have kid BB's, don't already have solid standards in place, but it would be nice to see structure.  Yeah, I know, it's asking for a lot..lol.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> MJS said:
> 
> 
> > Sure.  Since I'm not going to go watch their tests to see how legit they are, I suppose it doesn't really matter.  Even my comment about it being a red flag is unimportant unless I'm shopping for a school.  If I'm not, then it isn't.
> ...


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> All sounds fair to me.   Someone said earlier, my apologies for not recalling who, maybe tshadowchaser, said that *kid/youth black belts are pretty much here to stay, like or not*.  So, that said, I would probably be more in favor of it, if the things that you mentioned in your posts, were actually used.  This isn't to say that some school who have kid BB's, don't already have solid standards in place, but it would be nice to see structure.  Yeah, I know, it's asking for a lot..lol.


That actually was me this time.  

I think that some arts lend themselves to it far more than others do, and some organizations in particular more so than others.  

Taekwondo is a good example.  The art is mostly striking and the forms are all performed solo and in a pattern.  Within taekwondo, you have the KKW, which specifies a pum belt for the wee ones, but has no policy against giving them a black belt instead.  Then you have the ATA, which has competition brackets for five year old black belts.

Hapkido does not lend itself in that way, though I do know of a school that does teach kids hapkido and issues black belts in it to kids.  I have not heard about any major accidents at the school, but just the same, I'd rather not take my chances in my own studio.

BJJ doesn't lend itself to children with a black belt simply because of the time in grade required to get it; you'd have to be training in the womb to be black belt at the age of ten, and that assumes no age minimum (there may be one).

I agree that it would be nice to see the structure, but just as there was a time when belts weren't used at all, the martial arts landscape has changed.  Belts are utilized differently than some of us remember.  Some popular arts, like MMA, don't even use them.  

Ultimately, my only requirement be that the training is good and that the school owner doesn't try too hard to gouge the students financially.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Just to add a bit more...and it all goes back to the 1 bad apple ruins the bunch mentality.  I think that when you see an art doing something 'suspect', it makes everyone think that anyone who teaches that art, is also 'suspect'.  Take the Bujinkan for example...you see guys running around with high rank, jetting off to Japan every chance they get, to get a promotion.  The consensus of many, is that the Bujinkan is a joke, compared to the higher standards that you'd see in the Jinenkan or Genbukan.  Does that mean every Buj. inst. is shady?  Probably not, but it raises the red flag, in essence, giving the entire art, a bad rep.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> Just to add a bit more...and it all goes back to the 1 bad apple ruins the bunch mentality.  I think that when you see an art doing something 'suspect', it makes everyone think that anyone who teaches that art, is also 'suspect'.  Take the Bujinkan for example...you see guys running around with high rank, jetting off to Japan every chance they get, to get a promotion.  The consensus of many, is that the Bujinkan is a joke, compared to the higher standards that you'd see in the Jinenkan or Genbukan.  Does that mean every Buj. inst. is shady?  Probably not, but it raises the red flag, in essence, giving the entire art, a bad rep.


Well, the potential is certainly there for that.  

The only problem in this instance is that the main market of dojos with huge kids programs are people who are more concerned about making their child a more well rounded person and with providing their child with a nice after school activity that doesn't involve video games.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That actually was me this time.



LOL!  



> I think that some arts lend themselves to it far more than others do, and some organizations in particular more so than others.
> 
> Taekwondo is a good example.  The art is mostly striking and the forms are all performed solo and in a pattern.  Within taekwondo, you have the KKW, which specifies a pum belt for the wee ones, but has no policy against giving them a black belt instead.  Then you have the ATA, which has competition brackets for five year old black belts.
> 
> ...



BJJ and their ranking is something I mentioned earlier.  I commented how long it takes to reach black, yet nobody seems to care or complain. When the rank happens, it happens.  They might have a youth belt system, I really don't know.  Either way, I also asked what the rush was, with some people, in other arts, with ranking.  Almost seems like if someone starts at a certain age, it's almost expected that at specific intervals a test will happen, and you can pretty much expect a BB by a certain time.  IMHO, the time frames are simply a guide.  People hear it takes 2mo to go from white to yellow and dammit, at that 2mo mark, you better get tested.  

As for the TKD...well, I should probably not comment or think before I speak.   LOL!  That is an excellent example though, of the black eye that art gives.


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## MJS (Mar 5, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, the potential is certainly there for that.
> 
> The only problem in this instance is that the main market of dojos with huge kids programs are people who are more concerned about making their child a more well rounded person and with providing their child with a nice after school activity that doesn't involve video games.



True.  Personally, I'd rather see a kid in a physical activity than sitting idle.  Of course, IMO, I think those goals can still be reached, while still maintaining some sort of quality in the school.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> BJJ and their ranking is something I mentioned earlier.  I commented how long it takes to reach black, yet nobody seems to care or complain. When the rank happens, it happens.  They might have a youth belt system, I really don't know.  Either way, I also asked what the rush was, with some people, in other arts, with ranking.  Almost seems like if someone starts at a certain age, it's almost expected that at specific intervals a test will happen, and you can pretty much expect a BB by a certain time.  IMHO, the time frames are simply a guide.  People hear it takes 2mo to go from white to yellow and dammit, at that 2mo mark, you better get tested.
> 
> As for the TKD...well, I should probably not comment or think before I speak.   LOL!  That is an excellent example though, of the black eye that art gives.


I don't know that TKD gives anything a black eye; not speculation I'm willing to make.

I do know that it is the most heavily commercialized of any Asian art that I can think of, and it crosses over heavily into school athletics and the Olympic movement.  The black belt has been used as a marketing tool because it is so recognizable, and the fact that in TKD the ildan is really just a beginning rank that does not take all that long to achieve has served commercial schools very, very well.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> True.  Personally, I'd rather see a kid in a physical activity than sitting idle.  Of course, IMO, I think those goals can still be reached, while still maintaining some sort of quality in the school.



I thoroughly agree.


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## K-man (Mar 5, 2014)

I think I have said enough earlier but as to maintaining integrity in the system I will just say that if I were to award a black belt to a minor, that person will be capable of holding there own, physically and mentally, in adult company and that applies to any black belt of mine.

Having said that you will not find any children running around my dojo with the equivalent of an adult belt of any colour. If I ever do go back to teaching children they will have a junior rank and they can grade to an appropriate adult rank when they are physically capable of doing it. Just don't expect to see me grading junior fifth dans to adult fifth dan any time soon.
:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think I have said enough earlier but as to maintaining integrity in the system I will just say that if I were to award a black belt to a minor, that person will be capable of holding there own, physically and mentally, in adult company and that applies to any black belt of mine.
> 
> Having said that you will not find any children running around my dojo with the equivalent of an adult belt of any colour. If I ever do go back to teaching children they will have a junior rank and they can grade to an appropriate adult rank when they are physically capable of doing it. Just don't expect to see me grading junior fifth dans to adult fifth dan any time soon.
> :asian:



Absolutely nothing wrong with that.


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## generalneon (Mar 5, 2014)

Is there different curriculum for youth students for other styles? I'm just familiar with Tang Soo Do, and the forms, one-steps, ect., are for all students, regardless of age. If they are being taught something different than the adult students, doesn't that, in and of itself, dilute the art?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

MJS said:


> My outlook on 8yr old 2nd dans probably isn't going to change, but I will try to be a bit more tactful with my display of disapproval.


The problem is that the parents who have children with black belts or the children themselves aren't really the ones you disapprove of.  It's the school owners who perpetuate the practice.

And after such schools have milked the parents for hundreds of dollars worth of testing fees, mom and dad have a psychological need to defend their investment.  When they come here, a blunt remark precipitates a less than friendly argument where no matter who wins, everyone loses.

Meanwhile, the actual culprit is counting his money and driving his new Lexus.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 5, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Is there different curriculum for youth students for other styles? I'm just familiar with Tang Soo Do, and the forms, one-steps, ect., are for all students, regardless of age. If they are being taught something different than the adult students, doesn't that, in and of itself, dilute the art?


Safety issues not withstanding, I don't believe that there should be a curriculum differentiation.  

If there is a safety issue, then teach what you can teach and try to communicate the principles of the art within that context so that when the heavier material comes later, it fits in well within the framework the student has built.


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## K-man (Mar 6, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Is there different curriculum for youth students for other styles? I'm just familiar with Tang Soo Do, and the forms, one-steps, ect., are for all students, regardless of age. If they are being taught something different than the adult students, doesn't that, in and of itself, dilute the art?


Can I say, if your daughter was my daughter I would be as proud of her as you are. If she was my student I would be over the moon because I absolutely love it when my students excel. I no longer teach children because the training we do now is different to what we used to do. In the past we taught basics and we taught kata to children. We did sparring with noodles hitting below the knee to teach entering and evasion. There were two man drills but no sparring. Adults and older children, say from 16, trained with much more contact, a lot more self defence and a lot more aggression. In those days I tried to slow the belt progression so that a junior wouldn't by up to junior black belt until about 15 or 16. Then they could grade to adult black belt when they were physically capable of matching it with adults. All junior belts had a white stripe. 

The training we do now is not suitable for children in that it is quite violent. I don't want a situation where I teach children certain things for 10 years or so then have to turn round and say, "ok, now you are older we'll show you the real stuff". 
So I pass younger kids over to friends who have the facilities and the desire to teach children. If I taught children what I teach adults and they used their training at school I can see a lot of problems. Now I know people will say if the children are taught properly there shouldn't be a problem and that is true to the point where, under stress, your training takes over  and the brown stuff hits the fan. 

If you go back to the early times in Okinawa the training was restricted to the few people accepted by a teacher. It wasn't until the government recognised the health benefits of the training that it was introduced into the schools. But the training in the schools was but a shadow of what was taught to the adults. Nobody would be happy to see kids using potentially lethal techniques on each other.

That is why I feel so strongly against giving children an adult rank. I can understand where you are coming from in a system where the adults and children are taught the same things. I can't see how they are going to overcome the problem that that creates. I have difficulty even envisaging a system where the adult training is the same as training for sub-teens.
:asian:


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 6, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> I don't think preventing a 5 year old from an adult belt is putting it on a pedestal.  I'd say it goes for all belts a 5 yr old orange belt or blue or red or pink or purple belt shouldn't be the same as a 25 yr old.



Saying the black belt shouldn't be put on a pedestal was a bit off topic. I was thinking about some of the stuff I've said on other posts, that if brown is the belt rank right before black, as it is in lots of dojos, that going from brown to black should not be such a big jump, it should simply be sequential. Especially if your sensei is from Japan.

Now, the idea of a five year old having a black belt I think is absurd. Why? Because a typical five year old would not be able to meet the requirements for getting a black belt, at least not if the requirements are, in my opinion, requirements worth having for the black belt. In my dojo one of the requirements for black belt is that you have to be able to take a hit like a full grown man, (and no this does not involve directly taking a hit, as I stated before you hold a pad and somebody hits the pad full force and you have to be able to take the impact.) That, and most of the other physical and mental requirements for black belt a typical five year old would not be able to meet, at least in my dojo they wouldn't.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2014)

K-man said:


> The training we do now is not suitable for children in that it is quite violent. I don't want a situation where I teach children certain things for 10 years or so then have to turn round and say, "ok, now you are older we'll show you the real stuff".


Not that I'm advocating that you start teaching children again, but regarding this sentence, why not?  That is part of kids' lives.  They spend six years in kindergarten and elementary school receiving a basic education.  Then for three more years, they receive a more advanced education.  Then they spend four years learning still more advanced material, at which point, they decide what 'real stuff' they wish to pursue in college for another four or more years.

I can think of a lot of reasons not to teach young kids.  I currently only teach kids thirteen and up because I simply don't have the time right now to offer a dedicated children's class, and young kids mixed into an adult class is almost never a good idea because it impacts the class in such a way that one group learns at the expense of the other or both groups suffer.

But I have no qualms about making young kids wait on things that I don't believe in teaching to young kids.  

Young kids can ride a bicycle and once their ready, a mini bike and dirt bikes.  But that motorcycle license and a real road bike have to wait until the rider is sixteen.  As MJS said, what's the hurry?


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## MJS (Mar 6, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't know that TKD gives anything a black eye; not speculation I'm willing to make.
> 
> I do know that it is the most heavily commercialized of any Asian art that I can think of, and it crosses over heavily into school athletics and the Olympic movement.  The black belt has been used as a marketing tool because it is so recognizable, and the fact that in TKD the ildan is really just a beginning rank that does not take all that long to achieve has served commercial schools very, very well.



I only said that, because that is one art that comes to mind, where you tend to see a lot of young kids with BBs.  When you hear people reference the art as Take My Dough, well, right or wrong, you can probably see why people view that art the way they do.  Is every TKD dojo out there using shady tactics?  I honestly don't know.  I'd really like to hope that there's a few at least, that uphold some quality standards.


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## MJS (Mar 6, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Is there different curriculum for youth students for other styles? I'm just familiar with Tang Soo Do, and the forms, one-steps, ect., are for all students, regardless of age. If they are being taught something different than the adult students, doesn't that, in and of itself, dilute the art?



A few of the Kenpo dojos that I've trained at, had a separate curriculum for kids.  Older kids, ie: 14, 15 yrs old, could possibly be in the adult class, depending on maturity and ability to fit in well with an older group of students, but kids that are younger, have fewer techs and kata per belt level.  Those kids will test for a Jr. Black Belt.  While those kids mature, they'll go back and learn the remaining material.  When they're ready, they'll test for their adult black belt.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 6, 2014)

MJS said:


> I only said that, because that is one art that comes to mind, where you tend to see a lot of young kids with BBs.  When you hear people reference the art as Take My Dough, well, right or wrong, you can probably see why people view that art the way they do.  Is every TKD dojo out there using shady tactics?  I honestly don't know.  I'd really like to hope that there's a few at least, that uphold some quality standards.



TKD is the most widely practiced art, and as such it's more visible. I suspect that if it were possible to really research this, you'd find that there are about the same percentage of baby black belts in other arts. 

Larger orgs make easier targets. In the SCUBA world, PADI is the largest, and (just like TKD) some people refer to it as Put Another Dollar In.


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## MJS (Mar 6, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The problem is that the parents who have children with black belts or the children themselves aren't really the ones you disapprove of.  It's the school owners who perpetuate the practice.
> 
> And after such schools have milked the parents for hundreds of dollars worth of testing fees, mom and dad have a psychological need to defend their investment.  When they come here, a blunt remark precipitates a less than friendly argument where no matter who wins, everyone loses.
> 
> Meanwhile, the actual culprit is counting his money and driving his new Lexus.



And this, folks, is probably the best summary of my feelings.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 6, 2014)

MJS said:


> I only said that, because that is one art that comes to mind, where you tend to see a lot of young kids with BBs.  When you hear people reference the art as Take My Dough, well, right or wrong, you can probably see why people view that art the way they do.  Is every TKD dojo out there using shady tactics?  I honestly don't know.  I'd really like to hope that there's a few at least, that uphold some quality standards.


TKD suffers (or benefits, depending upon your perspective) from heavy commercialization and all that goes with it.  Arts and sciences are fundamentally at odds with commercialization.  Art and science demand a degree of integrity while commercial interest demands profit.  If integrity is standing in the way of profit, guess which one loses?


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 11, 2014)

Some martial arts schools will practically hand out black belts, often as a method of making more money. Personally I don't agree with that and I would not recommend training at such a place. I don't think the black belt should be handed out. I don't think any of the belts should be handed out except perhaps the white belt. In most places, a student starts with a white belt on day one and Im fine with that. All the other belts I think should be earned. They should be earned by the student working hard and meeting the standards for the belt. I also think a student should know what they need to do to get their next belt up, whatever color it might be. Up to and including the black belt, a student should know what they need to do to get their next belt.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools will practically hand out black belts, often as a method of making more money.


In which case, they aren't being handed out but are being sold.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Some martial arts schools will practically hand out black belts, often as a method of making more money. Personally I don't agree with that and I would not recommend training at such a place. I don't think the black belt should be handed out. I don't think any of the belts should be handed out except perhaps the white belt. In most places, a student starts with a white belt on day one and Im fine with that. All the other belts I think should be earned. They should be earned by the student working hard and meeting the standards for the belt. I also think a student should know what they need to do to get their next belt up, whatever color it might be. Up to and including the black belt, a student should know what they need to do to get their next belt.



We don't even give out the white belt. New students wear regular workout clothes until they learn Kicho 1. Not super difficult, but they have to be able to get through it on their own before they can wear a dobak.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 12, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> We don't even give out the white belt. New students wear regular workout clothes until they learn Kicho 1. Not super difficult, but they have to be able to get through it on their own before they can wear a dobak.



Yes there are some dojos where you start with no belt and have to earn the white belt. What Im saying is that none of the belts except the white belt, or including the white belt if your dojo doesn't start with that, should be handed out/sold but instead should be earned. However, its only proper that a student should know what they need to do to get to their next belt rank, whatever it might be. It makes sense that a student should know their sensei's standards for getting their next belt up to and including the black belt, doesn't it?


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## generalneon (Mar 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> Yes there are some dojos where you start with no belt and have to earn the white belt. What Im saying is that none of the belts except the white belt, or including the white belt if your dojo doesn't start with that, should be handed out/sold but instead should be earned. However, its only proper that a student should know what they need to do to get to their next belt rank, whatever it might be. It makes sense that a student should know their sensei's standards for getting their next belt up to and including the black belt, doesn't it?



I believe that those of us who are following this thread are in agreement with that opinion. The debate, however, is how young is too young to earn the black belt. Some here believe that if a student has put in the requisite training, and can pass the art's standards, then they earn the belt. Some believe that there should be a youth program separate from the senior training and have it's own belt system.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 12, 2014)

generalneon said:


> Some believe that there should be a youth program separate from the senior training and have it's own belt system.


I believe in a separate youth program for reasons unrelated to the belt.  It is generally unproductive to mix adults with kids, or young kids with teens.  Mainly, the classes are tailored differently.

My personal feeling is that if the student can really pass the test and has the requisite training time, then barring any age standards set by the organization, I see no reason to differentiate.

So long as standards and integrity are maintained.  If the black belt is simply a standard feature of the school after a requisite number of classes and payments, then I have an issue with it.  Regardless of the age of the students.


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 13, 2014)

generalneon said:


> I believe that those of us who are following this thread are in agreement with that opinion. The debate, however, is how young is too young to earn the black belt. Some here believe that if a student has put in the requisite training, and can pass the art's standards, then they earn the belt. Some believe that there should be a youth program separate from the senior training and have it's own belt system.



That would depend on what the standards are. In some dojos, in order to get a black belt you have to be able to take impact like a full grown adult. You also have to be able to hit with the power of a full grown adult. A young child would not be able to meet those standards.


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## MJS (Mar 14, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> TKD suffers (or benefits, depending upon your perspective) from heavy commercialization and all that goes with it.  Arts and sciences are fundamentally at odds with commercialization.  Art and science demand a degree of integrity while commercial interest demands profit.  If integrity is standing in the way of profit, guess which one loses?



Sad but true.  This is what I often refer to when I talk about people caring more about $$ than the quality of things...but that's just me.  Like I've said, I'm all for someone making a buck.  It's just sad...actually pathetic is more like it, when people resort to the things that we've talked about.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 14, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> That would depend on what the standards are. In some dojos, in order to get a black belt you have to be able to take impact like a full grown adult. You also have to be able to hit with the power of a full grown adult. A young child would not be able to meet those standards.



Nor would some full grown adults.  Are we talking adult males or females?  Does that include senior citizens?  What about diminutive people who simply lack physical power? 

Saying, 'power of a full grown adult' simply muddies the waters.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Mar 15, 2014)

I have been learning and teaching since 1967. That's right, I'm still alive and punching and teaching private lessons. 

Kids should not be taught an adult program with crippling or deadly techniques until they reach the age of sixteen, but even then it depends on the kids maturity to take on the serious adult program. To give a kid an adult  black belt is an insult to the adult students and I would never do that and it is also dangerous for kids to have adult knowledge which could injure other kids. Even if a kid had a black belt, a grown adult could beat the kid up. His muscles aren't developed, his height and his emotions.

Aikikenjitsu


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## PhotonGuy (Mar 19, 2014)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Nor would some full grown adults.  Are we talking adult males or females?  Does that include senior citizens?  What about diminutive people who simply lack physical power?
> 
> Saying, 'power of a full grown adult' simply muddies the waters.



Yes that can be a problem. All I know is that my sensei requires a student to be able to take impact like a full grown adult as one of his requirements for black belt. I would assume he means average adult as adult's physical abilities vary based on different factors such as size, gender, ect. 

In medieval times, to be a knight you had to be strong enough to wear armor. The standard age at which a person got knighted was 21 and that is how we got the age of 21 to mean the age of adulthood for certain stuff such as being able to drink alcohol or to get a CDL (Commercial Driver's License) or in the old days, to vote. The reason why people were usually knighted at 21 was because usually by that age a person was strong enough to wear armor. Now, you didn't have to be 21 to be a knight, you could be a knight at a younger age if you could meet the requirements including the requirement of being able to wear armor, but usually it was at 21 when a person got knighted. Just like one of the requirements to be a knight was to be able to wear armor, one of the requirements that my sensei has for black belt is to be able to take impact like a full grown adult. I've never known of any five year old that could do that. There were knights that were younger than 21 but I never heard of a knight who was 5. By the same token, I don't know of any five year old that could take impact like an average full grown adult so that's why a 5 year old would never be a black belt at my place.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 19, 2014)

I have no criticism of your sensei's requirements.

My point was that any requirement is in some way arbitrary.  An age requirement is arbitrary; 13, 16, 18?  I've seen numerous ages mentioned.  Requirements of a degree of power, ability to fight adults, requirements of crispness, etc. 

Different people have different ideas, with the only real commonality being that they all seem to feel very passionately about their position.


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## drop bear (Mar 19, 2014)

Tyler manowara at 16 fighting adults.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bHMq7p-QgnM

At that age he was dropping  pro fighters. So ability is not necessarily too age restricted.

Now if a black belt is based on fighting ability alone and this kid wandered into your gym and flattened you. Does he deserve your black belt more than you do?


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## K-man (Mar 19, 2014)

drop bear said:


> Tyler manowara at 16 fighting adults.
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bHMq7p-QgnM
> 
> At that age he was dropping  pro fighters. So ability is not necessarily too age restricted.
> ...


I could perhaps make an exception for an exceptional 16 year old to be awarded a black belt but as to the belt thing in another dojo, no way, because black belts are not normally handed out that way. As has been pointed out by numerous people on numerous occasions, belts are a mark of progress in any particular system. They cannot be compared style to style. What it would mean, if this kid wandered into our dojo (we don't train in a gym), and could handle himself doing the things we do, is that he is a very competent martial artist. Nothing more. 

By your arguement I could wander into an Iaido school, challenge them to a fight by my rules and become an Iaido black belt because I could beat them in a fight that favours me. If it was fair dinkum fighting they could use a sword but because that is not part of my training and they don't really want to hurt me the sword is not part of the fight.

Then another way of looking at your hypothetical is, if I go into an MMA gym and beat an MMA guy, what does it prove? Just that I am competent at what I do. It doesn't make me a BJJ black belt or an MMA black belt if they have such things.
:asian:


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## drop bear (Mar 20, 2014)

K-man said:


> I could perhaps make an exception for an exceptional 16 year old to be awarded a black belt but as to the belt thing in another dojo, no way, because black belts are not normally handed out that way. As has been pointed out by numerous people on numerous occasions, belts are a mark of progress in any particular system. They cannot be compared style to style. What it would mean, if this kid wandered into our dojo (we don't train in a gym), and could handle himself doing the things we do, is that he is a very competent martial artist. Nothing more.
> 
> By your arguement I could wander into an Iaido school, challenge them to a fight by my rules and become an Iaido black belt because I could beat them in a fight that favours me. If it was fair dinkum fighting they could use a sword but because that is not part of my training and they don't really want to hurt me the sword is not part of the fight.
> 
> ...



Then the belt system represents something other than just fighting competency. And looking at a child black belt or an old black belt with the expectation that they are some sort of fight monster is a bit misleading.

And maybe it is just to represent progress within that school however that school feels justified doing that.

And why if someone wants to justify a 10 year old bb they should not have to do it based on that 10 year olds ability to physically defend that belt.


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