# Amazing what you can purchase on Ebay these days...



## Jphtkd (Aug 6, 2009)

I used to joke with a friend all the time about this. We used to say people with black belts and no skill bought them on ebay... apparently somebody was listening...


http://cgi.ebay.com/Tae-Kwon-Do-Bla...in_0?hash=item334fc00106&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


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## KELLYG (Aug 6, 2009)

Freaking sad!!!


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## Twin Fist (Aug 6, 2009)

i feel ill


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 6, 2009)

You can buy the USTU seal for only $1.40

http://cgi.ebay.com/Martial-Arts-US...0?hash=item1bfe135884&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Hmm you can buy alot of certificates on Ebay....
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=ma...6.m270.l1313&_odkw=judo+certificate&_osacat=0


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## Jphtkd (Aug 6, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You can buy the USTU seal for only $1.40
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Martial-Arts-US...0?hash=item1bfe135884&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
> 
> ...



Lol "WTF Dan Certificate"


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## NPTKD (Aug 6, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You can buy the USTU seal for only $1.40
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Martial-Arts-US...0?hash=item1bfe135884&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116
> 
> ...


  Not only is the USTU Seal but the Tae "KWAN" do seal!


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## Jphtkd (Aug 6, 2009)

I wonder if the seller knows that the USTU no longer exists


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 6, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> I wonder if the seller knows that the USTU no longer exists


The people who buy those certificates don't care. I've seen IKKA kenpo certificates being sold on e-bay signed by SGM Ed Parker and he died 19 years ago. There is obviously a market for these certificates.


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## mwd0818 (Aug 6, 2009)

*Hoping that the buyers and sellers are going for the collector and historical markets*

:duh:
:hb:

*knows it's not true*


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## Jphtkd (Aug 6, 2009)

_"_*THIS IS NOT MEANT TO CONVEY REAL QUALIFICATIONS AND WE ONLY OFFER THIS AS A NOVELTY ITEM. BUYING THIS DOES NOT INFER YOU COMPLETED ANY SCHOOLING. *_*THERE ARE ALOT OF KNOCK OFFS OF OUR WORK ON EBAY, WE HAVE BEEN SELLING THESE AT SHOWS, FESTIVALS AND CRAFT SHOWS FOR 3 YEARS AND HAVE NEVER HAD ANYONE EVER COMPLAIN. THESE CERTIFICATES ARE REALLY HIGH END. YOU WILL BE AMAZED AT WHAT THESE ARE."

*_*A knock-off of a fake certificate (listed as a "marshall arts" certificate btw)... would the knock-off of the fake = a real certificate?
*


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## K31 (Aug 6, 2009)

Doh! And here I've been a chump and sweating and getting injured...To bad Billy Mays is dead, they could have an infomercial. On the other hand maybe they could get Vince "The Sham-wow guy"."Hi, it's Vince here for the Sham-Dan blackbelt system.You ever want to be able to impress a woman by telling her you're a blackbelt but you hate the thought of all those nasty pushups and repetitive Hyungs?  Well, those days are over!...But wait there's more. Call in the next 20 minutes, cause we can't do this all day, and receive a bonus Dan upgrade for no extra cost! A $29.95 value free!"


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 6, 2009)

Whats really sad is how many people are actually buying these.



> http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISA...2993&ftab=AllFeedback&sspagename=VIP:feedback


 
I like this one:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/Korean-Martial-...0?hash=item45e6d55390&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116


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## ATC (Aug 6, 2009)

Wow!


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## dbell (Aug 6, 2009)

Oh how sad this time in life is that people go through these steps to make credentials..

Sigh...


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## dancingalone (Aug 6, 2009)

Yes, this is one of the reasons why I no longer look at rank or belts when meeting a new martial artist, whether a junior color belt or even a high dan holder.  It's all about the knowledge in their head or how they perform on the floor.

It's a shame, but it is what it is.


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## dancingalone (Aug 6, 2009)

By the way, the seller is a Mr. Gordon and he appears to teach the KKW forms.  This might not be a bad deal if he can really hook you up with a legit KKW rank, assuming you have the skills of course.  Of course, it'd be pretty hard to acquire the skill level to be a real black belt without training in a school and having access to partners of multiple sizes and shapes.


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## Jphtkd (Aug 6, 2009)

You can watch them slap fight on youtube:


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 6, 2009)

K31 said:


> Doh! And here I've been a chump and sweating and getting injured...To bad Billy Mays is dead, they could have an infomercial. On the other hand maybe they could get Vince "The Sham-wow guy"."Hi, it's Vince here for the Sham-Dan blackbelt system.You ever want to be able to impress a woman by telling her you're a blackbelt but you hate the thought of all those nasty pushups and repetitive Hyungs? Well, those days are over!...But wait there's more. Call in the next 20 minutes, cause we can't do this all day, and receive a bonus Dan upgrade for no extra cost! A $29.95 value free!"


LOL. I couldn't resist reading this outloud in a Billy Mays voice and pointing to my monitor. :rofl:


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## CDKJudoka (Aug 6, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I like this one:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Korean-Martial-A...3286.m20.l1116




What I like the best about this was that it was a *Korean* Cert, written in *Chinese* and *English*.


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## terryl965 (Aug 6, 2009)

Man oh man what next......


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## Twin Fist (Aug 6, 2009)

oh dear god


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 6, 2009)

> What I like the best about this was that it was a *Korean* Cert, written in *Chinese* and *English*.


 
You mean Koreans don't use Chinese or English?! :uhyeah: Well flip my brain and call me Pancakes!!

Well what else would Koreans use for writing? Hangul? Thats just baffling!!:rofl:


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## girlbug2 (Aug 6, 2009)

Yeah, but is it as good as learning karate the fun and easy way?


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 6, 2009)

http://shop.ebay.com/s.html?LH_Sell...lt+certificate&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1246&_rdc=1

That's nothing.  Click there.

AoG


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## ArmorOfGod (Aug 6, 2009)

It's really bad with the even mispell "marshall arts."
http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-BELT-MARS...in_0?hash=item3a513700ed&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 6, 2009)

Permit me to vomit.

Better the martial arts should die out completely than be reduced to this.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 6, 2009)

http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-BELT-MARS...in_0?hash=item3a513700ed&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14

That guy is gold!! gold I tell you!! gold lol.

Oriental federation lol.


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## msmitht (Aug 7, 2009)

ArmorOfGod said:


> http://shop.ebay.com/s.html?LH_Sell...lt+certificate&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1246&_rdc=1
> 
> That's nothing.  Click there.
> 
> AoG


The certs on that page and the others posted on ebay are all garbage. They are all generic or from bogus org's. There was a guy trying to sell KKW certs on the web but he was caught by KKW officials and stripped of rank. 
Not surprising to see an ATA cert on there. 
It is not the cert that is important, it is the signature on it and the journey to get it. I know many great tkd students and masters who, for one reason or another, do not have KKW or ITF cert's.


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## Miles (Aug 7, 2009)

If you are not "purchasing" skills through blood (yours and others), sweat (yours) and tears (yours and others), you don't deserve a dan rank.  If anyone wishes to delude himself into thinking he has achieved a rank obtained any other way, he is not a martial artist.  He is an idiot.


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## Carol (Aug 7, 2009)

DarkPhoenix said:


> What I like the best about this was that it was a *Korean* Cert, written in *Chinese* and *English*.





JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You mean Koreans don't use Chinese or English?! :uhyeah: Well flip my brain and call me Pancakes!!
> 
> Well what else would Koreans use for writing? Hangul? Thats just baffling!!:rofl:




Hangul is a casual Korean script.  The more formal script, Hanja, contains characters borrowed heavily from the Chinese.   Just sayin'


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> http://cgi.ebay.com/BLACK-BELT-MARS...in_0?hash=item3a513700ed&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14
> 
> That guy is gold!! gold I tell you!! gold lol.
> 
> Oriental federation lol.




great looking certificate tho, clean, uncluttered, kinda like the new design on the Walmart brand foods....


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## Carol (Aug 7, 2009)

granfire said:


> great looking certificate tho, clean, uncluttered, kinda like the new design on the Walmart brand foods....



And don't forget the Wal-Mart brand wine to go with the Wal-Mart brand foods


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## granfire (Aug 7, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> And don't forget the Wal-Mart brand wine to go with the Wal-Mart brand foods




LOL, has not gotten that bad - yet. ^_^


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## NPTKD (Aug 9, 2009)

I'll probably catch some crap for this but....... What is the difference between these and some schools issuing thier own dan certificates. Or buying these to use for there school
 Keep in mind I do not use them we promote thru Kukkiwon.


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## NPTKD (Aug 9, 2009)

I will add that in some peoples eyes they are both the same. unless your some one like Jhoon Rhee or along that line.


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## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I'll probably catch some crap for this but....... What is the difference between these and some schools issuing thier own dan certificates. Or buying these to use for there school
> Keep in mind I do not use them we promote thru Kukkiwon.


 

There is no difference at all, remember a certificate means nothing except you spent time in a dojaang. What really matters is can you survive it need be.


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## terryl965 (Aug 9, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> I will add that in some peoples eyes they are both the same. unless your some one like Jhoon Rhee or along that line.


 
Even his does not hold what it once did, he has so many pass instructor using his name and sytem but teaches nothing like the old days.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 9, 2009)

yeah, cuz we ALL know that a KKW cert means quality....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


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## sadantkd (Aug 9, 2009)

I just watched the sparring on youtube, and it may just be the worst thing I've ever seen.


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## NPTKD (Aug 9, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, cuz we ALL know that a KKW cert means quality....:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


 

I guess one why to look at it is.  If wanted to move to a different country someday and wanted to attend or open my own school. I think I would rather have the clout of KKW hanging on my wall then that of a Dan certificate from someone... lets say  like Larry's Double Foot TKD. It really doesn't matter how good I think I am, quality is in the eye of the consumer.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 9, 2009)

yeah, i guess the KKW impresses some people. So does the ATA come to think of it.


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## Kacey (Aug 9, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Hangul is a casual Korean script.  The more formal script, Hanja, contains characters borrowed heavily from the Chinese.   Just sayin'



Beat me to it!


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks guys.  I am now an OFFICIAL 20th degree black belt who has been thanked by president Obama, and the mayor of gotham for being a great super TKD person.  I bought a couple extra so i can print a few more later when I need something more dated.  I plan to have my 30th degree by mid summer next year.  That will pack them into the front doors....


But seriously, these certificates have been arround for years.  Its not the certificate that matters, its the signature on it and the reputation that backs it that add value.

As for the online Black Belt courses........... I guess in todays world where video games and being lazy make up a majority of our society.... what did you expect.


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

Oh....

And for all you guys (and Gals) out there who want to start a school or already have a school that needs help.....

Here ya go.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220443479029


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 10, 2009)

Sure you don't want this?

http://www.internationaljock.com/ad...source=shoppingcomsite&utm_medium=shoppingcom


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> Sure you don't want this?
> 
> http://www.internationaljock.com/ad...source=shoppingcomsite&utm_medium=shoppingcom


 
I prefer to be _FREE.....:boing2:_


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## NPTKD (Aug 10, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i guess the KKW impresses some people. So does the ATA come to think of it.


 
You are really comparring the two! Come on.... You know I used to get pissed when there was something that I wanted but couldn't get also. You know like when you want a Big Mac and your mom would say" I can make you a hamburger at home". You know they even came out with a sauce that was just like the sauce they put on the Big Mac! She made me one once. I liked it because she made it for me..... But it Still wasn't a Big Mac!  I'm sure who ever made your certificate made it look reaLLLLLL nice. But its still not a .............:ultracool


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## searcher (Aug 10, 2009)

I did a little bit of research on this guy and here is his website: http://firststrikeonline.org/default.aspx


Sorry if it is already been found.     I guess it will keep him rolling in the green and laughing the whole time.


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

You know, I have met many people who said the same thing.... "SCREW KKW".  and i can see their point.  But those are usually the same people who couldnt get one.  Like someone who was a 4th Dan already but had never had the oppurtunity to get one from the start.  One day they get the chance and Then KKW says "we dont care, you start as 1st Dan and wait full amount of time for each... no acception"... I can understand the resentment.  Then I see these so called BB that paid their money and got a KKW who dont deserve it and it makes you even more dissatisfied with them.  Resentment.  Frustration.  Its all understandable, but so was my Bachelors Degree.... Why did I have to pay money to some BS institution to say I knew how to do my job.  Because it was "more widely" recognized and accepted than my resume that said I could do the same thing.  

True TwinFist, you may not and others may not care about it or even accept it, but overall.... the world is bigger and has alot more who do.  I came to a few points in my TKD life where I said Screw it too.  I found myself as a 3rd dan who was told I wasn't a real BB because i didnt have a KKW.  and I had to start over... on paper... After all, it's still just a piece of paper that you need to be able to back up with your knowledge and skill.


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

BIGMAC.....

i hate bigmacs....

Give me a Double cheese anyday!:lfao:


mmmmmmmm  doublecheeseburger.....:fanboy:


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## NPTKD (Aug 10, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> You know, I have met many people who said the same thing.... "SCREW KKW". and i can see their point. But those are usually the same people who couldnt get one. Like someone who was a 4th Dan already but had never had the oppurtunity to get one from the start. One day they get the chance and Then KKW says "we dont care, you start as 1st Dan and wait full amount of time for each... no acception"... I can understand the resentment. Then I see these so called BB that paid their money and got a KKW who dont deserve it and it makes you even more dissatisfied with them. Resentment. Frustration. Its all understandable, but so was my Bachelors Degree.... Why did I have to pay money to some BS institution to say I knew how to do my job. Because it was "more widely" recognized and accepted than my resume that said I could do the same thing.
> 
> True TwinFist, you may not and others may not care about it or even accept it, but overall.... the world is bigger and has alot more who do. I came to a few points in my TKD life where I said Screw it too. I found myself as a 3rd dan who was told I wasn't a real BB because i didnt have a KKW. and I had to start over... on paper... After all, it's still just a piece of paper that you need to be able to back up with your knowledge and skill.


 

 Been there! Done that! He doesn't get it! Thank, you do.


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## dancingalone (Aug 10, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> You know, I have met many people who said the same thing.... "SCREW KKW".  and i can see their point.  But those are usually the same people who couldnt get one.  Like someone who was a 4th Dan already but had never had the oppurtunity to get one from the start.  One day they get the chance and Then KKW says "we dont care, you start as 1st Dan and wait full amount of time for each... no acception"... I can understand the resentment.  Then I see these so called BB that paid their money and got a KKW who dont deserve it and it makes you even more dissatisfied with them.  Resentment.  Frustration.  Its all understandable, but so was my Bachelors Degree.... Why did I have to pay money to some BS institution to say I knew how to do my job.  Because it was "more widely" recognized and accepted than my resume that said I could do the same thing.
> 
> True TwinFist, you may not and others may not care about it or even accept it, but overall.... the world is bigger and has alot more who do.  I came to a few points in my TKD life where I said Screw it too.  I found myself as a 3rd dan who was told I wasn't a real BB because i didnt have a KKW.  and I had to start over... on paper... After all, it's still just a piece of paper that you need to be able to back up with your knowledge and skill.



There's some value in being a member of a large organization if rank recognition is important to you.  

That said a few of you are overstating the status of the KKW as a gold standard in certifying black belts.  I suppose one might well feel some KKW envy if one practiced a KKW syllabus (and that's a rather loose one apparently), but there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people in the US alone who follow other curriculum and practice different forms than the KKW's.  I doubt any of them feel any sense of envy or regret for not having KKW paper.

The KKW is the largest TKD org in the world right now.  But it is no closer to cornering the market on TKD training than Ford or Mazda is to gaining a car monopoly in the US.  If you want to buy a Ford and get your KKW BB that's great.  Deciding otherwise (or even not having the foggiest idea what the KKW is) is totally fine also.


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> there's some value in being a member of a large organization if rank recognition is important to you.
> 
> That said a few of you are overstating the status of the kkw as a gold standard in certifying black belts. I suppose one might well feel some kkw envy if one practiced a kkw syllabus (and that's a rather loose one apparently), but there are tens (hundreds?) of thousands of people in the us alone who follow other curriculum and practice different forms than the kkw's. I doubt any of them feel any sense of envy or regret for not having kkw paper.
> 
> The kkw is the largest tkd org in the world right now. But it is no closer to cornering the market on tkd training than ford or mazda is to gaining a car monopoly in the us. If you want to buy a ford and get your kkw bb that's great. Deciding otherwise (or even not having the foggiest idea what the kkw is) is totally fine also.


 
honda/acura....


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> I found myself as a 3rd dan who was told I wasn't a real BB because i didnt have a KKW.  and I had to start over... on paper...



anyone that told me that would be told exactly which part of my butt they could start kissing

get this straight, other than KKW schools, NO ONE KNOWS OR CARES WHAT THE KKW IS

got that?

NO ONE

the public certainly doesnt, in fact MOST MARTIAL ARTISTS have never heard of them.

try comming to texas and telling Allen Steen or Pat Burleson that they aint  real BB's cuz they aint KKW. i got money says you will wake up wondering what happened to you.......

THE KKW is just another fraternity. Sometimes usefull, but for the most part? it is just a way of BUYING YOURSELF some warm fuzzy feelings from other people that are in the same frat.

and no one else gives a damn




i LAUGH at the slaves that send hard earned money to the leeches in Korea


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 10, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i guess the KKW impresses some people. So does the ATA come to think of it.


 
I understand exactly your point. Any Certificate only impresses (or NOT) *OTHER INSTRUCTORS. *
The average Joe on the street has NO idea what the KKW or ATA is. This may surprise some of you, but straight up, that's true. Only if you have spent the time & money does it mean anything to most of us.
I just started teaching again not too long ago. I teach in a town where the ATA has been for 30 years, and there used to be a KKW certified Instructor here also. NOT 1 person has came in wanting ATA or KKW - NOT ONE. In fact, I have a few from the other orgs. to switch over.
You guys are paying BIG $$$$ for no reason at all, other than YOU have BEEN TOLD it is Important. No disrespect meant, Truly.
Billy's parents probably don't care or even KNOW what the certificate even means anyway. I have gained 5 students (from the other guys) because they did NOT want to pay TOP $$$ just for a certificate.
If you want the KKW, ATA or any other, that's fine, just don't kid yourself that it means more than it does.
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## d1jinx (Aug 10, 2009)

:fanboy:mmmmmmmmmmmm..... Doublecheeseburger  :fanboy:


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

please explain why you think you "need" a KKW cert?


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## terryl965 (Aug 10, 2009)

TF and TKDKevin I will spead some light for what a KKW certificate gets you. This is not to say everyone needs it they do not, what people need is knowledge and a good understanding of what SD really is. The KKW is needed for International competition and the Olympic sport you must have it if you plan on playing the Game. I am not saying to go out and get one but for those that want the top level person in the sport it is a requirement.

So no only a small % really need it and yet every get one. I have some student that need it but I do not get everybody one only those wishing for it. TF you are right Pat or Allen would go ape **** if you told them they was not for real, since I see Pat almost once a month.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

so FOR SPORT you need it? ok that i can believe


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 10, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> TF and TKDKevin I will spead some light for what a KKW certificate gets you. This is not to say everyone needs it they do not, what people need is knowledge and a good understanding of what SD really is. The KKW is needed for International competition and the Olympic sport you must have it if you plan on playing the Game. I am not saying to go out and get one but for those that want the top level person in the sport it is a requirement.
> 
> So no only a small % really need it and yet every get one. I have some student that need it but I do not get everybody one only those wishing for it. TF you are right Pat or Allen would go ape **** if you told them they was not for real, since I see Pat almost once a month.


 
Terry....I do know what the KKW Certificate can get you. That's not news to me.
Yes, I know what you are trying to say.....again, the WTF is NOT the ONLY Association that holds International Events. The KKW is needed for WTF International competition. Again, Top Level in the WTF, Just like ITF has theirs, & ATA theirs as do other Associations. You are speaking as if a person isn't competing in WTF, then they are not competing in REAL TKD.
I know that is not what you mean, but again, this has been said and repeated so much in the last 25 years that it is spoken as if the WTF Tournaments are the only ones that count now.
Again, Please don't misunderstand me, I'm not knocking it, but there are many that think if you don't have a certain Association Certification, then you are lesser quality, or not REAL TaeKwonDo.
The ATA had competitors from 17 countries and more than 5000 competitors............should we all go join the ATA?
Bigger doesn't mean better.....it only means bigger.
With Respect.
-Kevin


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## NPTKD (Aug 10, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> please explain why you think you "need" a KKW cert?


 
Well Here it is... Your not going to like it. First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable. I found in order to become a international referee I needed to be KKW. In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. In order to continue to improve my skills in the art of the people that you are dismissing in your comments I needed a KKW. I know you'll say " I've learned Texas Karate or Texas TKD" but the last time I checked Texas was in the United States. And  the hybrid system that you are learning has its roots in Japan or Korea. So to answer your question its a small price to pay ( probably the same that you have paid) to ensure that I can keep learning and  improving the conditions in my schoo for myself and my students. i mean I could also go to staples and have them print out a really nice certificate to give to my students, sure they don't know the differenace. And some might not even care. But what about the one who will. Do I stick him with some dead end Dan certificate that means nothing outside of my school or state because I feel that the KKW mean nothing? What gives me that right? They come to us because they beleave in what were are doing. And most think what one TKD school is doing,All TKD schools are doing. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them.


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## NPTKD (Aug 10, 2009)

oh ya, and your probably one of those people who think that they don't need health insurance ether!:duh:


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## Twin Fist (Aug 10, 2009)

so, to recap:

to play KKW games, you need a KKW cert

to go to other KKW schools, you need a KKW cert

to ref at KKW games, you need a KKW cert

otherwise?

it's toilet paper


you think you need a KKW cert because the KKW told you you did

congrats, you are the martial arts equivilent of a frat boy


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 10, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Well Here it is... Your not going to like it. First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable. I found in order to become a international referee I needed to be KKW. In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. In order to continue to improve my skills in the art of the people that you are dismissing in your comments I needed a KKW. I know you'll say " I've learned Texas Karate or Texas TKD" but the last time I checked Texas was in the United States. And the hybrid system that you are learning has its roots in Japan or Korea. So to answer your question its a small price to pay ( probably the same that you have paid) to ensure that I can keep learning and improving the conditions in my schoo for myself and my students. i mean I could also go to staples and have them print out a really nice certificate to give to my students, sure they don't know the differenace. And some might not even care. But what about the one who will. Do I stick him with some dead end Dan certificate that means nothing outside of my school or state because I feel that the KKW mean nothing? What gives me that right? They come to us because they beleave in what were are doing. And most think what one TKD school is doing,All TKD schools are doing. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them.


 
Sir, no disrespect meant.....again, it sounds like it is being said that if EVERYONE doesn't teach KKW TKD then it's not real TKD. For your info, the ATA (i'm no fan of them) IS the largest TaeKwonDo association in the USA. The chances of one of your students moving and walking into an ATA school is pretty good. So through your own "logic" we should all join the largest Association - the ATA.............NO Thank You.
For some reason, there is this thought, that Instructors must keep paying and paying big $$$ to keep up on things. Thats ONLY True with SOME Associations. The Association that I belong to has FREE Instructor Camps AND FREE Instructor Testings.
Small Price to Pay?? How many Hundreds per Black Belt? How many Thousands to 5th Degree? When the day comes that I test for 5th Degree, it will cost me ZERO. That's money saved that I can re-invest into my students. Keeping current is our job, I agree with you Sir, but also making sure they don't get overcharged is also my job.
Just my Opinion - But I do stand by it.
Respectfully,
-Kevin


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## dancingalone (Aug 10, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> Well Here it is... Your not going to like it. First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable. I found in order to become a international referee I needed to be KKW. In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. In order to continue to improve my skills in the art of the people that you are dismissing in your comments I needed a KKW. I know you'll say " I've learned Texas Karate or Texas TKD" but the last time I checked Texas was in the United States. And  the hybrid system that you are learning has its roots in Japan or Korea. So to answer your question its a small price to pay ( probably the same that you have paid) to ensure that I can keep learning and  improving the conditions in my schoo for myself and my students. i mean I could also go to staples and have them print out a really nice certificate to give to my students, sure they don't know the differenace. And some might not even care. But what about the one who will. Do I stick him with some dead end Dan certificate that means nothing outside of my school or state because I feel that the KKW mean nothing? What gives me that right? They come to us because they beleave in what were are doing. And most think what one TKD school is doing,All TKD schools are doing. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them.



Not much above made sense.

"First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable."

You believe holding KKW membership is the only way to stay current?  What about learning anatomy?  What about learning nutrition?  How about just some good old fashioned hard training with and without your dojang?  

"In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. "

You could also join the ITF or the GTF or a handful of other orgs that are large enough to hold international tournaments.  That is, if sport TKD is even one's interest to begin with.

"I know you'll say " I've learned Texas Karate or Texas TKD" but the last time I checked Texas was in the United States. And the hybrid system that you are learning has its roots in Japan or Korea. So to answer your question its a small price to pay ( probably the same that you have paid) to ensure that I can keep learning and improving the conditions in my schoo for myself and my students"

Huh?  Not sure what you're trying to say here or what Texas' status as a state has to do with the universal value of a KKW rank.

"i mean I could also go to staples and have them print out a really nice certificate to give to my students, sure they don't know the differenace. And some might not even care. But what about the one who will. Do I stick him with some dead end Dan certificate that means nothing outside of my school or state because I feel that the KKW mean nothing?"

You're definitely a true believer.  Let's just say the currency of a KKW certificate is worthless in certain circles...And that's without even bringing up the various competing orgs like the ITF(s).

"What gives me that right? They come to us because they beleave in what were are doing. And most think what one TKD school is doing,All TKD schools are doing. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them"

Do you seriously believe this?  Seriously?


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## Jphtkd (Aug 10, 2009)




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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 10, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


>


 
Thanks for the Laugh............If you look at it right, it kinda looks like a Kangaroo :boing2:


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## Jphtkd (Aug 10, 2009)

lol it does! I wonder what your therapist would say about that...


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## TaeKwonDoKevin (Aug 10, 2009)

Jphtkd said:


> lol it does! I wonder what your therapist would say about that...


:deadhorse  :caffeine: :lfao:    :bow:  :hmm: 
*WOW- I gotta get so sleep!*


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## msmitht (Aug 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> yeah, i guess the KKW impresses some people. So does the ATA come to think of it.


I really enjoy most of your post's and agree 99% of the time with what you have to say....HOWEVER, please do not ever again compare the KKW with the ATA.
That is like comparing the NFL to pop warner.
TYVM


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## granfire (Aug 11, 2009)

msmitht said:


> I really enjoy most of your post's and agree 99% of the time with what you have to say....HOWEVER, please do not ever again compare the KKW with the ATA.
> That is like comparing the NFL to pop warner.
> TYVM





HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

TaeKwonDoKevin said:


> Sir, no disrespect meant.....again, it sounds like it is being said that if EVERYONE doesn't teach KKW TKD then it's not real TKD. For your info, the ATA (i'm no fan of them) IS the largest TaeKwonDo association in the USA. The chances of one of your students moving and walking into an ATA school is pretty good. So through your own "logic" we should all join the largest Association - the ATA.............NO Thank You.
> For some reason, there is this thought, that Instructors must keep paying and paying big $$$ to keep up on things. Thats ONLY True with SOME Associations. The Association that I belong to has FREE Instructor Camps AND FREE Instructor Testings.
> Small Price to Pay?? How many Hundreds per Black Belt? How many Thousands to 5th Degree? When the day comes that I test for 5th Degree, it will cost me ZERO. That's money saved that I can re-invest into my students. Keeping current is our job, I agree with you Sir, but also making sure they don't get overcharged is also my job.
> Just my Opinion - But I do stand by it.
> ...


 
I feel for you Kevin! Yes, I to once had to wear Wlamart shoes when my friends wore Nikes! I even went so far as to draw a swoop on the to fit in.


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

:lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao::lfao:

:highfive:


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

dancingalone said:


> Not much above made sense.
> 
> "First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable."
> 
> ...


 

Sure I do! I would not have wrote it if I didn't. You most of you KKW bashers make me smile anyway. Its a big sansbox you find a toy! Just hang in there little guy, you have already made a friend in Kevin. He wears Walmart shoes also.


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## Laurentkd (Aug 11, 2009)

I think we owe it to our students to offer some sort of recognized certification for Black Belt. I am not going to argue the merits of ITF/KKW/ATA whatever, but I think that if we are going to have students dedicate years of blood sweat and tears and yes even money, that their rank ought to be somewhat transferable somewhere.
I guess I feel this way because I was one of those who's instructor told everyone they were going to receive Kukkiwon certificates, and then skipped town. I had to track down another master who was at my test.  I (well my parents really) made sure that I received the certificate I was due (by paying for it again) and when I went and joined another school I was recognized as a 2nd degree, while my peers were not. Many of our students will end up leaving us at somepoint (college, job change, etc) and I want to make sure their certification is recognized somewhere beyond my dojang.


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

I guess my point is ( unlike Double D's or Twin foot or whatever) I'm not bashing the ITF or ATA. If that is the system that you study so be it. They have there own cerificates, and that great! But for Kukkiwon Taekwondo it is KKW Dan Ceriticate. If not don't teach Kukki taekwondo. Call it something else. But you can't have the best of both worlds. And as far as the money!!! I paid my instructor a hell of alot more money then I ever paid the KKW! And if Mr. Kevin feel that he is doing a great service to this students by not offering a $70.00 certificate, well..... $70.00 for 5 or 6 years of training, come on!


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

*About Us*

At Twin Fist Martial Arts, we teach a unique system of modern martial arts that teaches self defense and produces students who are disciplined, confidant, coordinated, physically fit people. Using American Tae Kwon Do as the basis of our style, and incorporating elements from many styles we have developed a system for dealing with real world threats in modern situations.
So I can understand why you would not use KKW. And why you would use your own. And that fine! But for those of us who use Kukki TKD,we use KKW Dan. Now you see, I'm not bashing your choice. Big sandbox


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

*Programs and Prices*
*Fitness Plus:*  Choose one art​
*Pay out:*  $810*​
*1 month:  *$105​
*3 month:  *$95/month​
*6 month:  *$85/month​
*1 year:  *$75/month​
*Black Belt:*  Choose two arts​
*Pay out:*  $918*​
*1 month:  *$115​
*3 month:*  $105/month​
*6 month:*  $95/month​
*1 year:*  $85/month​
*Masters:*  Choose any three arts​
*Pay out:  *$1026*​
*1 month:  *$125​
*3 month:*  $115/month​
*6 month:*  $105/month​
*1 year:*  $95/month​
*Leadership:*  Choose any four arts​
*Pay out:*  $1134*​
*1 month:*  $135​
*3 month:  *$125/month​
*6 month:*  $115/month​
*1 year:*  $105/month​
*Victory:*  All five arts​
*Pay out:*  $1242*​
*1 month:*  $145​
*3 month:*  $135/month​
*6 month:*  $125/month​
*1 year:*  $115/month​
***Pay out is full payment of one-year contract, with 10% discount, at time of contract signing.
**Uniforms, weapons, and equipment not included in program pricing.


Come on Kevin, your really saving your students money! Buddy you can afford those Nikes!​


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

Laurentkd said:


> I was one of those who's instructor told everyone they were going to receive Kukkiwon certificates, and then skipped town.



did you know any less because you didnt get the cert?


didnt think so.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

my my, you are insulting aint ya?

you keep sending your money to korea in return for a piece of paper, and keep fleecing your students by outright lying to them and telling them it matters..

I guess when you cant have skill, you might as well have a piece of paper with some Korean writing on it........


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## shesulsa (Aug 11, 2009)

The ninjutsu folks would have a field day with this thread if the issue were Hatsumi Sensei and Hayes. :lfao:


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## jks9199 (Aug 11, 2009)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep your discussions polite and respectful.  

jks9199
Moderator
*


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> my my, you are insulting aint ya?
> 
> you keep sending your money to korea in return for a piece of paper, and keep fleecing your students by outright lying to them and telling them it matters..
> 
> I guess when you cant have skill, you might as well have a piece of paper with some Korean writing on it........


 

So I don't have skill? Is that what your saying?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> The ninjutsu folks would have a field day with this thread if the issue were Hatsumi Sensei and Hayes. :lfao:



see, but there are no winners in that fight........


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2009)

NPTKD said:


> So I don't have skill? Is that what your saying?




oh i am sure you are decent at your sport...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 11, 2009)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep your discussions polite and respectful.  

jks9199
Moderator


*Gentlemen please adhere to the above moderator warning and get back on track.  Thanks!


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> oh i am sure you are decent at your sport...


 
 Am I sure that you are very skill at dungeon & Dragon's or what ever it is that you teach!


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## d1jinx (Aug 11, 2009)

I never said KKW was the only "real" tkd.  To each his own.  But because I chose to teach and participate in that Type of TKD, it is what I got.  It is what I do.  If I were teaching ITF, ATA, AAMA, WXYZ or whatever, I would expect to be cert'd by them also.  Because I do KKW TKD, doesnt mean I don't go above and beyond thier standards.  And I dont agree with the changes they always make.  But its something That I teach and will offer.  The WTF is about the "GAME".  I hate the bs they call sparring.  KKW is about TAEKWONDO.  When and if you ever leave your corner of the world you live in, you will see that no matter how great Jimmy Joe Bob's TKD is and what a great student you were, in the "birthplace" of TKD... Korea.... they will laugh at your so called TKD BB Dan Cert.  And yes, it pissed me off.  And yes, I still continued to train and decided to get it so I do not put any of my students in the same position I found myself in.  

It is easy to dismiss something you cannot be a part of. 


*TF:*
Why even call what you do Tae Kwon Do?  Why call it AMERICAN TAEKWONDO?  Theres nothing american about _TAEKWONDO_.  the words dont even mean anything in english except the DO which is do.  So if you despise Korean "leaches" so much and care not what they teach or offer.... call it "American Way Of Kicking and Punching"   Does taking a traditional Korean art with its roots in Korea and adding your own twist make it American?  oh... thats right... the NAME _Taekwondo_ has more credibility than the real name..."_American Way Of Kicking and Punching_".  

Look.... bottom line, you do what works for you in your corner of the texarkana.  

*tkdkevin*:
Your org NPTA is just another group of schools who couldn't fit in for what ever reason and decided to start their own _lil biker_ gang.  Orgs around the country are like biker gangs, a dime a dozen, and dont mean squat outside their little stomping grounds.  They are gonna give you 5th because you keep paying in to them.  Free is how you look at it.

It kills me when 2 or 3 guys who might have been good (or not) decide they don't like how any other group or community operates and decide to Start thier own thing and sell it like its a NATIONAL org, because brother Bob in Tenn and Sister Sarah in Kentucky join.  Then you sell the BS to your students like it is a HHHHUUUUUUUGGGGGGGEEEEEE org all over the country with "hundreds" of members.  Give me a break.  These orgs only exists because they would rather put money into thier own pocket than those "_LEACHES_" in Korea....



HEY ALL:  
Today I learned Shoalin Kung Fu.  I will add my twist and call it american Shoalin and cut out any credit to china.  No reason to visit the birthplace of Shoalin and be a real Shoalin Kung-fu-ist.


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## NPTKD (Aug 11, 2009)

d1jinx said:


> I never said KKW was the only "real" tkd. To each his own. But because I chose to teach and participate in that Type of TKD, it is what I got. It is what I do. If I were teaching ITF, ATA, AAMA, WXYZ or whatever, I would expect to be cert'd by them also. Because I do KKW TKD, doesnt mean I don't go above and beyond thier standards. And I dont agree with the changes they always make. But its something That I teach and will offer. The WTF is about the "GAME". I hate the bs they call sparring. KKW is about TAEKWONDO. When and if you ever leave your corner of the world you live in, you will see that no matter how great Jimmy Joe Bob's TKD is and what a great student you were, in the "birthplace" of TKD... Korea.... they will laugh at your so called TKD BB Dan Cert. And yes, it pissed me off. And yes, I still continued to train and decided to get it so I do not put any of my students in the same position I found myself in.
> 
> It is easy to dismiss something you cannot be a part of.
> 
> ...


 As a foot note: If you go the route that Twin fist did. Make sure that your curriculum offer things such as" killing unicorns" "Pulling swords from stone"  and " the death touch".


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## jks9199 (Aug 11, 2009)

Thread locked pending review.


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