# How many of you believe you will be fighting someone like you?



## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, Alot of martial arts let you believe there art will defend and save you from harm?

Think about it? Who are the most likely attackers, criminals,gang members,rapist, bullies,really bad dudes. Most of these people DO NOT CARE what they do to you....?

Yet we do not want to cause harm to others...because we were not brought up that way. (hurting/killing) is not a part of our lives ,lot of us go to Church and believe in loving all people.

Do you have the "mindset" or killer instincts to survive? or do you believe the person you are fighing has the same morals as you?

Be prepare to die or get injury.......the Samuria code got it right!..Aloha


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## rutherford (Mar 10, 2006)

All of the fights I have _lost_ I can point to a single moment where I said, "I do not want to fight.  I do not want to be involved in this conflict, and I do not want to hurt this person."

However, these thoughts have led me to get my head bounced off a set of concrete steps, knocking me unconscious.  I've also had fat lips and less serious injuries.

At some point in every conflict, it is far too late for these thoughts.  If your awareness did not lead you to avoid the situation before now, you must clear them from your mind, and do what is necessary to survive.  I have been lucky, so far, and understand that you don't really lose any fight which you survive.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

That all sounds a bit melodramtaic to me. Most self-defence situations are unlikely to include someone trying to kill you. I'd be interested to hear if there are any credible statistics which show whether assaults are mostly caused by "hardened criminals". Obviously it depends on the nature of the assault, but you get my gist.


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, In the book Attack Proof written by a retire police officer. His reports says: over 26,000 people are killed every year in fights, and more are injury.

Please research this?  You will be surprise of the numbers.  Look at the FBI crime records? How many people are murder, rape, mug, and so on?

Why do you think we have so many prisons?  and so many of the criminals are let out early to make room for the new criminals?

and the ones that get out..commits 70% or the crimes today.

Rapist are not cure by jail time.....and when they are let out? they do it again and again.

............have a nice day........Aloha


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

What percentage of assaults result in death? And also, are you only talking about USA?


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

I've done some googling and I've found this statistic (http://timlambert.org/1994/10/dgu-00007/ -together with someone's analysis), apparently attributed to a study of over 14,000 incidents by Gary Kleck. Not sure what year the study was in (definately pre-1994) or geographical coverage but I'd guess it's USA. 

Anyway, apparently only 0.35% of assaults result in death, and that would discount unreported assaults and domestic assaults, so the true fraction would be far less still.

Also, the full crime report is here: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/documents/CIUS2004.pdf 

It is a lot of reading and needs further analysis to put the figures into perspective, but here are some basic figures for 2004:
% of US population murdered in 2004: 0.005%
% of US population victims of violent crime in 2004: 0.46%

Back to the murders, only 12.9% were attributed to strangers (although 44.1% were unknown)


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 10, 2006)

Its ridiculous to assume that God fearing people wont defend there children from harm. There are those that hide their heads and hope it all works out but, and they are cowards no matter what their spiritual upbringing. 
Sean


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, All the figures is of the USA.  Go down to any police station and ask how many people get into fights in the neighorhood.

Please research those numbers in may vary from enforement agenies.

You will not hear of many daily indidents in your town/cities...because they happen so routinely and do not make the news anymore.

If you have a  police officer friends talk to them. 

We live in a very violent world and each generation teaches the next one to hit back when someone hits you?  don't we tell our kids that when a bully harass them?  or some other kid hit them in the playground.

fight or flee.....human nature........tag your it and I run....Aloha


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## elder999 (Mar 10, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> I've done some googling and I've found this statistic (http://timlambert.org/1994/10/dgu-00007/ -together with someone's analysis), apparently attributed to a study of over 14,000 incidents by Gary Kleck. Not sure what year the study was in (definately pre-1994) or geographical coverage but I'd guess it's USA.
> 
> Anyway, apparently only 0.35% of assaults result in death, and that would discount unreported assaults and domestic assaults, so the true fraction would be far less still.


 
"Aggravated Assault is an unlawful attack by one person upon another for the purpose of inflicting severe or aggravated bodily injury. This type of assault is usually accompanied by the use of a weapon or by means likely to produce death or great bodily harm. Attempts are included since it is not necessary that an injury result when a gun, knife, or other weapon is used which could and probably would result in serious personal injury if the crime were successfully completed." (_Crime in the United States_ _1999, _USDOJ-FBI)

]I suggest you look at the  FBI webpage


In particular  this page, on murder, where you will note:





> Of those incidents in which the murder weapon was specified, 70.3 percent of the homicides that occurred in 2004 were committed with firearms. Of those, 77.9 percent involved handguns, 5.4 percent involved shotguns, and 4.2 percent involved rifles. Approximately 12.4 of the murders were committed with other types or unspecified types of firearms. *Knives or cutting instruments were used in 14.1 percent of the murders; personal weapons, such as hands, fists, and feet, were used in 7.0 percent of murders, and blunt objects (i.e., clubs, hammers, etc.) were used in 5.0 percent of the homicides.* Other weapons, such as poison, explosives, narcotics, etc., were used in 3.6 percent of the murders. (Based on Table 2.9.)





As well as, (and this is for the original poster):





> Of the homicides for which law enforcement provided supplemental data to the UCR Program, the victim-offender relationship was unknown for 44.1 percent of the victims.* For the incidents in which the relationships were known, 76.8 percent of the victims knew their killers and 23.2 percent were slain by strangers. Among the incidents in which the victims knew their killers, 29.8 percent were murdered by family members and 70.2 percent were killed by acquaintances.*


 

As for the rest of it, &#8220;One&#8217;s like us? They&#8217;re all dead!&#8221;


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## rutherford (Mar 10, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> That all sounds a bit melodramtaic to me. Most self-defence situations are unlikely to include someone trying to kill you.


 
Actually, the guy who bounced my head off a set of stairs was a classmate of mine.  He wasn't a hardened criminal, but he certainly could have killed me.

Luckily he didn't want to, because I couldn't have done anything to stop him at that point.


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## Rick Wade (Mar 10, 2006)

To try and help put our students and myself in the proper mindset we use terms like enemy rather than opponent or competator.  In the UKF (Universal Kenpo Federation) under Mr. Pick Kenpo isn't a sport it is a knife system firmly based out of Ed Parker's American Kenpo System.  Make no mistake about it we are training for combat and the worst case senario.

V/R

Rick


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, Many fights that starts...most people do not intend to kill the person only to create alot of pain.

But it doen't take much to hit your head on the corner of a wall or fall and hit something that kills you, or receiving a blow that causes you to die.  Happens many times where the person did not want to kill but only to hurt the guy.  I'm sorry I only want to hurt you and not kill you???? 

OOPs ..........Jail time........Aloha


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

Still Learning, 

I think you need to consider the crime statistics more carefully. You keep posting about how common murder is etc. It's not _that_ common and the statistical chances of being a victim vary greatly depending on your location, ethnicity (sorry, the figures do show that), gender, age and from my experience in UK, your own (eg criminal) activities. 

Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.


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## Grenadier (Mar 10, 2006)

Just having the mindset to avoid doing harm to another is different from being blindly immersed into it.  

There will come a point at which there's no return, and you will fight for your life.  If not for your life, then for the life of your children, your significant other, etc.  At that point, I'm fairly certain that most of us on this forum would conclude (whether voluntarily or involuntarily) that the time for talk is over.  

Different people, though, will have different "points of no return," when it comes down to it, and different situations can create different such points as well.


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, I am not paranoia?  I have a friend who is a police officer and we use to go fishing/camping a lot and he tells me a lot stories that do not show up in the news that happens daily.  When we travel together or in a store (I live in a small place -KONA). he  always point out the criminals around us and many of them know him too. 

I just want to share something many people are not aware of...and it can happen to you (facing a really bad guy).  How many of you practice facing this kind of people?  .................awareness is living a little longer...Aloha


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## evenflow1121 (Mar 10, 2006)

Question: What are your thoughts when facing an opponent?
Bruce: There is no opponent.
Question: Why is that?
Bruce: Because the word ''l'' does not exist.
A good fight should be like a small play...but played seriously. When the opponent expands, l contract. When he contracts, l expand. And when there is an opportunity... l do not hit...it hits all by itself (shows his fist).
Any technique, however worthy and desirable, becomes a disease when the mind is obsessed with it.

I think the only thing going through your head at that particular moment is the fight.  For me once, the guy is up in my face there is no point of return.  I cant sit around and try to talk him out of it, I have to cover my own ***.  Once the guy is down on the floor or hurt in a way that I know he will not or can not attack me then I will stop.  I dont like hurting people, and I ve never gloated or been happy about having to fight, but sometimes you simply have to and I have to agree with Rutherford, once you start clouding your mind with trying to get out of fighting you lost your focus and that can be dangerous. 

As far as morals, that is a good question, certainly if someone out on the street is going to rape or assault or rob a person that individual has a lack of morals, but you know fights can also start for different reasons: drunk people in a bar, a guy who had a bad day at work and drank too much and got violent, two guys fighting over one girl. The only thing going through my head at the time of a fight is that the person in front of me doesnt care enough of what may happen to him if he wants to go out and start a fight with someone, but if he doesnt care what happens to him, he obviously must care even less about what may happen to me, so avoiding the fight is out of the question at that point.  What it does not give me the right, at least in my opinion, is to beat a person severely when that person is already in a state where he can no longer harm me.

To answer the last part of the question, I dont really think I would ever fight someone like me cause I hate fighting.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

The best Sushi I ever had was in Kona. Anyway, how many times have you been murdered lately?


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## stickarts (Mar 10, 2006)

I have always been pretty calm and layed back until I get threatened or someone tries to smack me! :0) Then I am still calm but on high alert! :0)
I don't assume anything but try and evaluate what the threat really is and what are my their strengths and weaknesses vs. theirs.
Most situations i have been able to de-escalate and avoid conflict.


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## elder999 (Mar 10, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.


 
Funny-my house is in the forest, and, in spite of that, my insurance tells me that the chances of my house being consumed by a forest fire are actually lower than the chances of my being a victim of criminal violence. Granted, that depends as much on the weather as anything else, and, while my home is still standing unscathed, we have had to evacuate 3 times due to nearby forest fires (as in *had to*: fireman knocking on the door at 2 a.m) . 

By your reckoning, somehow though, preparing against such an eventuality is "paranoid and fatalistic." Equally so, as you've stated, for preparing against the possibility that one will be the victim of a violent crime.

I've been the intended "victim" of violent crime, on several occasions, and in three different countries. I didn't become a "victim" because I was prepared to answer violent crime with what is, essentially, the only answer in that situation: controlled violence. I defended myself, because I knew how. In one instance, someone was breaking into my home, and the simple sound of the action on my shotgun, preceded by my saying "Get out of my house, now!" was enough to send them running, but I would hae shot them if they hadn't. Not because I'm trigger-happy, but because that's what's called for in that situation-like it or not, if someone is _invading_ my home, and they've been told to leave, and they've heard that distinctive _ker-chuck!_, then they need shooting. Ditto rapists, muggers, and various other actionable assaults-and if no firearm is available, then violence must be answered by running, or with violent physical training, or meek compliance.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 10, 2006)

elder999 said:
			
		

> By your reckoning, somehow though, preparing against such an eventuality is "paranoid and fatalistic." Equally so, as you've stated, for preparing against the possibility that one will be the victim of a violent crime.


Not at all, but we need to keep things in perspective and we need to consider a scalable response which allows us to fit the response to the circumstance.


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## still learning (Mar 10, 2006)

Hello, On my part time job as a Security Officer....You will start hearing about all the fights and other incidents that happens to our other fellow workers's shift areas.

Last week an employee forgot his name tag and his mother brought it and park in front of the store (fire zone lane mark with yellow strips). I did not know who she was or why she park there.  I told her she was in a no parking zone and had to move to a parking area.

He son came up to me with fire in his eyes and said that I give his mother a "bad attitude."  ...boy did he want to get into a fight. (because I ask  her to move her car from the fire zone)

So I got out of my security truck and told him I will apologize to his mother and mention that his son said I give her a bad attitude?  She said NO! and I look him in the eye and I said this sitution could have escalated, and I walk away.   ...........things can happen so fast because of mistaken of what really happen..............Aloha

PS. untill you do this type of job...you will never realize how  many peope do give you 'BAD ATTITUDES" to you evertime


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## MJS (Mar 10, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Still Learning,
> 
> I think you need to consider the crime statistics more carefully. You keep posting about how common murder is etc. It's not _that_ common and the statistical chances of being a victim vary greatly depending on your location, ethnicity (sorry, the figures do show that), gender, age and from my experience in UK, your own (eg criminal) activities.
> 
> Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.


 
Perhaps I'm not reading it the same as you are, but I took his post, not so much as being paranoid, but simply asking if the people who train are actually going to be able to bring themselves to effectively defend themselves should the situation arise.

Mike


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## Adept (Mar 10, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> Still Learning,
> 
> I think you need to consider the crime statistics more carefully. You keep posting about how common murder is etc. It's not _that_ common and the statistical chances of being a victim vary greatly depending on your location, ethnicity (sorry, the figures do show that), gender, age and from my experience in UK, your own (eg criminal) activities.
> 
> Violent crimes are terrible when they happen. But encouraging paranoia, fatelistic or triggger-happy mentalities is not sensible self-defence IMO.



The thing is, the chances of actually being involved in _any_ kind of situation where you are likely to use your physical SD is minute. One could make a strong argument that bothering to train for SD at all is a waste of time.

However, all of us here do it anyway, because we don't want to take that chance. And while we're at it, we may as well assume that any SD situation that we get into will be life or death. Theres no downside to training with that assumption, so any differences will be positive, and any surprises will be pleasant ones.


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## SAVAGE (Mar 10, 2006)

Well I dont think you need a "Killers" mindset...you do however need a "survival" mindset and be willing to kill to survive!

That IMHO is what seperates us from the thugs!


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## evenflow1121 (Mar 10, 2006)

I wouldnt consider a fight a life or death situation per se, it can be or it can lead to it sure, but not all fights are life threatening.  Still, I think there is quite a bit more than paranoia, as a martial artist you are trained to defend yourself, and while you should be smart and avoid situations that are avoidable, some things will just be out of your control.  

I think what you were trying to get at is that if you go into a situation looking for a fight you are more than likely to find it, sure I agree with that, if that is what you are saying, but in a situation where you have an individual up in your face or is about to strike you, the last thing on your mind should be how to avoid the conflict, you should be focusing on the fight cause more likely than not, its going to happen.


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## Cruentus (Mar 11, 2006)

I spotted this thread, which poses an interesting question. You can narrow down possabilities, but you can't very well predict the profile of who you might be attacked by any more then you can predict if you will be attacked at all. it is worth saying that most people can manage to get through their lives without having gone through the horrors of assault.

But for all practical purposes, assume that the person or group of persons you face will have the edge on you. Maybe they are faster, stronger, more ruthless, or better armed. Or perhaps they just plain have the initiative. Assume this because the person attacking you most likely is doing so because they believe they have the edge on you. They wouldn't attack you if they didn't think they could win.

Statistical probabilities aside, that is how you should train... as if you will have to someday fight for your life. 

There are too many people who have made the mistake of assumption; assuming that they aren't likely to be attacked, or assuming that because they are trained in a martial art that they most likely won't be overtaken by their opponent. These assumptions all come with a price, so if you make them just hope that that death isn't the one who collects the debt.

Paul


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## beau_safken (Mar 11, 2006)

Well sorry but my take given the original title isnt looking like the rest of this thread.

When I read the title I was assuming it was a talk about if you met another copy of yourself (skill set, emotional equivenent, etc) would you be able to fight.  

My answer would be if I ever encountered another martial artist I wouldnt know.  Some teachers instill a "superiority" complex in their students...  Other take the other side of tranquility and understanding to the other extreme.  Lets look at it in this manner then.  Nothing like a good old fashioned bell curve...forgive my math...im a accountant not a freakin bookworm  Working off the bell curve here....so think of the 0-100% on a linear scale not necessarily as in 2% vs 98% being smaller or larger..just different sides of the line.  Dig?  Spacial thinking time and a little calc to f with ya.

0.00001 - 2.5% will want the fight...They want to test their knowledge and want a fight like a crack addict wants another hit.  He will bring it to anything and anyone that looks like a challenge or breathing.

2.51 - 5% will look for the fight...but not seek it.  They are waiting for that golden oppritunity to show themselves worthy of praise, but lack the fortitude to take the extra step unless shown the door.

5.001 - 33% will think I wonder if I could do such and such in a real fight situation.  I dont want the fight but wouldnt say no if given a chance.

34%-50% feel ok with a fight but know something isnt right about it.  Just something to do not necessarily to prove and the like.

50.01-67% feel not so ok with a fight but know they can handle it if need be.  Nothing too much to prove but more or less arent looking for any issues to happen.

67.01-95% Arent into a fight at all.  I want to play fight and make sure everyone and everything about it is ok before starting.  Not actively seeking in any manner...in fact specializes in diffusal tactics.

95.01 - 98.5% DOnt like fighting and it almost makes them sick to the point of nausea.  To them a fight is nothing but a complete preversion of martial arts as it should never make it to that point.

98.51 - 100% believe in a complete lack of a fight is the trust salvation in a situation.  To not fight is to win completely for both parties.

Given I am coming off a massively tough week and am not in the best of mind...but this sounds pretty good.  Just like legos, add a little to the above and help me create a continuim of escalation.

Thanks and lets do this.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31767


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## Rick Wade (Mar 11, 2006)

Adept said:
			
		

> The thing is, the chances of actually being involved in _any_ kind of situation where you are likely to use your physical SD is minute. One could make a strong argument that bothering to train for SD at all is a waste of time.


 
Wrong I did and it probably saved my life The guy pulled a knife on me after I said no to his request for money.  If he hadn't of run after I snapped his elw I would have kept going until I totally eliminated the problem.



			
				Adept said:
			
		

> However, all of us here do it anyway, because we don't want to take that chance. And while we're at it, we may as well assume that any SD situation that we get into will be life or death. Theres no downside to training with that assumption, so any differences will be positive, and any surprises will be pleasant ones.


 
You are absolutely correct after he pulle dthe knife on me it was my intention to give him my wallet and my reactions too over and I was acting without any prior planned moves (spontanious reaction).


V/R

Rick


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## bushidomartialarts (Mar 11, 2006)

we work on that in my studio often (adult classes at any rate).

trouble is we're decent human beings and care about not hurting others.  attackers aren't and don't.

there's a lot of research and some good workshops out there on how to turn off that 'decent human' switch and revert to somebody who can fight and no longer care about the other person.

this is why the most dangerous opponent in the world is a caring mother who believes her children are threatened -- she doesn't give damn one about the safety of the attacker at that point.  or her own, for that matter, so long as her kids come out okay.


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## still learning (Mar 12, 2006)

Hello, Most of us will never really be in a real fight or nasty situtions.  So the number that were mention may seem unreal.  This is normal when it doesn't happen to you,your family, or friends.

Kinda like a drunk driver than kills one more person...it doesn't effect us...cause we do not know the persons involved.  UNTILL it happens to us?  "Yet"  look at the number of people die each year?  Even car accidents that kills...if we do not know the people so it doesn't effect us?

Life is good when it doesn't happen to you? ..........enjoy yours....Aloha


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## kickcatcher (Mar 12, 2006)

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, On my part time job as a Security Officer....You will start hearing about all the fights and other incidents that happens to our other fellow workers's shift areas.
> 
> Last week an employee forgot his name tag and his mother brought it and park in front of the store (fire zone lane mark with yellow strips). I did not know who she was or why she park there. I told her she was in a no parking zone and had to move to a parking area.
> 
> ...


 
From what you describe you were successful in "self-defence", cool. BUT, you have demonstrated that many self-defence situations do NOT involve people facing "hardened criminals" nor people intent on killing them. It's not all life and death. And added to this your have a compariatively more confrontational work area that the vast majority of people, which increases your chances of being in "self-defence" situations relative to many others. If self preservation was your primary concern in life you wouldn't work in that work area. 

I've used my self-defence training both within a work setting and outside. Some of those situations were more frightening than others but if I look back objectively I'd say that none had a very high risk of death, even if I'd failed in my self-defence. In most cases my successful use of self defence conflict-management/fencework/de-esculation/escape/avoidance etc avoided even physical assault - demonstrating that despite those people _wanting_ to assault me, they were not intent on killing me (else I'd be dead by now, lol). I believe this carries over moreso to people who lead less confrontational lives.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 13, 2006)

If I were going to be fighting someone who has the same amount of training, practice, skills, know-how then it would definitely be a draw... this I believe applies to everyone, from Bruce Lee, Ed Parker Sr. from Samantha to Kenpo Tess, to Flatlander and to just about everyone else on MT and beyond.

The one who wants to win it will win, as it has been observed so many times. The fortitude and the will to come out on top, shall. The one who wants it the most. Whether it's for a tournament trophy or for a situation involving life and death and everywhere in between. 

In my experience I've been in a number of fights. Lost a few, won a few and the rest were either a draw or interuppted by LEO's or some other authority figure. In retropsect of the ones I lost; I may have probably lost them because of some other reasons than a lack of pure selfish motives like wanting to win. Principals and the need to save face of another that I was fighting. Other losses were attributed of course to the guy resoundingly whupping my ***, no if's ands or buts! Inexperience, fear, or the guy was simply better than me in one way or another. At least (... and thanking God everytime I think about them) I survived these losses and learned from them. 
Of the ones that I won, whell, lessee; some of them I won because the other guy didn't want to win it so badly (fear, inexperience, etc.) Others I won because I wanted to resoundingly whip that guys' *** because he deserved it. Others... because it was a life or death situation and dammit I wanted to survive at that particular moment. 

If I were going to fight someone like me ... I will say this ... it will be interesting, it will definitely be educational and mostly ... mostly my friends and neighbors ... it will be FUN!


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## Adept (Mar 13, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> you have demonstrated that many self-defence situations do NOT involve people facing "hardened criminals" nor people intent on killing them...
> 
> despite those people _wanting_ to assault me, they were not intent on killing me (else I'd be dead by now, lol). I believe this carries over moreso to people who lead less confrontational lives.



Certainly. But what conclusions can we draw from this, and how should we apply them to our training?

I believe we _should_ assume that the next person we encounter in a SD situation is willing and able to kill us. Intent on it, in fact. Now, this doesn't mean you should just put two shots in the COM of anyone who looks at you funny, nor should you be paranoid and never leave the house. But you should at all times be aware that any situation has the potential to escalate to a life or death situation. I think of it like this:

Any time I encounter someone, there are only four possible outcomes.

1 - I live, and he dies.

2 - I die, and he lives.

3 - We both live.

4 - We both die.

I believe it is important to remember that even though the overwhelming majority of encounters will be a #3, there is always the potential for a #2 or #4, and if my training hasn't prepared me for that (as much as reasonably possible) then I will be at a disadvantage. It doesn't hurt to train with those potential situations in mind, but it sure could help.

I tend to liken it to driving a car. The overwhelming majority of times you have an incident while driving will be minor. You jam the brakes on at an intersection, you run a red light, you speed a bit, you hit someones bumper at a parking lot, whatever. But you still wear your seatbelt every time you get into the car, just in case.


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## MA-Caver (Mar 13, 2006)

Adept, it is important yes to be as realistic as possible when confronted with a SD situation. All MA training I believe should incorporate this in to their training regiem. Without it, you have to ask yourself what are we training for? It's not just something nice to know, in this day and age it's becomes almost a necessity. 
The world is a wonderful and beautiful place to live. It's also a violent and terrible and ugly place. There for the assumption that this person confronting us wants to do us harm needs to be as clear and without doubt in our minds before we place ourselves into action. This decision making process needs to be done as quickly as possible so that we can proceed without error to the next step in our defense. 
A man standing in front of you yelling and ranting may only be just venting his frustration and anger out at/towards you. But he may not actually want to get into it with you. But how do we know for sure? We don't. Thus we need to prepare ourselves and tell ourselves that we are drawing a line (mentally) which if this person crosses it then we act. And then we act according to our training in response to what this person does. 
I"ve had a lot of people just run off at the mouth and found that's all they were doing. Still I had that line of where (depending upon the situation) if they cross it then I take it up a notch and respond in a manner that communicates to them they need to stop what they are doing. There are many lines/notches before any physical contact is made on my part. Sometimes the speed varies. 
*Brain training* (along with your physcial MA training) I've said before is essential and should be in proportion (and as realistic) to where you live and the rate of violent crime related to that area you are in. This is one way to avoid becoming a statistic... which you are anyway when someone accosts you on the street. 
We've said this many times having that awareness will go a long way to avoiding these confrontations/incidents. Also important to realize that awareness is by no means paranoia. 
Yes, I agree because in my experience a majority of said encounters are #3, but they are no by no means less traumatizing, than a death or waking up in a hospital severely injured. Having that preparedness will help minimize the effects, a support group afterwards (friends/family) will help us deal with it. 
The mind is a powerful weapon. More so than the foot or the hand or a gun. You got one, excercise it and use it.


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## kickcatcher (Mar 13, 2006)

Adept, there's nothing to stop people learning and applying awareness, deesculation, avoidance etc etc without the need to assume that the next incounter will involve someone willing to murder you. 

I believe people have to entrain a scalable response which allows the application of robust reasonable force as required and is tailored to their lifestyle and the nature of risks it is likely to present. 

Over playing how dangerous the world is does not help us in this regard, unless you market your MA on ignorant paranoia, which I guess some do. 

The internet is full of big talkers who go on about how if someone "invades" their home they'll shoot them etc. They cite how dangerous the world is as a justification etc. I think it's mostly talk. Even in war most soldiers shoot to miss (1950s US army studies, forget the exact statistics). Maybe these big talkers have weapons fetishes and actually dream that someone might give them an excuse to _legally_ justify their hobby by shooting someone.


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## Brother John (Mar 13, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> That all sounds a bit melodramtaic to me. Most self-defence situations are unlikely to include someone trying to kill you. I'd be interested to hear if there are any credible statistics which show whether assaults are mostly caused by "hardened criminals". Obviously it depends on the nature of the assault, but you get my gist.


From my research (limited, not perfect) MOST hand to hand (not involving a weapon of anykind) involve people that know each other. (not including domestic violence) So unless you know and hang out with the hardened criminal types.... your chances of being attacked by a hardened criminal type is lower than you think. BUT: The WORST attacks, and most weapon attacks, ARE from stranger to stranger....and most often are a side-bar to another crime.
So in the end, I'd rather be prepared for the worst of the worst..
It's better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.

Your Brother
John


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## punisher73 (Mar 13, 2006)

> Hello, All the figures is of the USA. Go down to any police station and ask how many people get into fights in the neighorhood.
> 
> Please research those numbers in may vary from enforement agenies.
> 
> ...


 
I will chip in since I work in the LE field. Every place is different so I can give you some generalizations based on my area.

1) Most fights are ego driven.  It is the bar fight where alcohol is involved and it is over something stupid.

2) Most assaults w/ a weapon are done by people who know each other.  It's usually not stranger vs. stranger

3) Most personal crimes are preventable if you take steps ahead of time by knowing where you are going and what type of area that is and making sure you are not alone or in a situation where something could happen.  Why walk out to your car by yourself at the mall when it is dark? Have a security guard escort you, that is what they are payed for.

4) If you live in a high crime area then you will greatly increase your risk of being the victim of a crime.  I know that sounds stupid, but the criminals in this area don't stray far from where they live to commit their crimes. If you are on vacation, find out ahead of time what places are well traveled and safer and what areas are to be avoided.

5) Don't go to places where you know there is a high risk of a fight.  If you are going to go to a bar, know the place well and what type of people usually go there.  There are certain bars and hang outs where fights happen all the time, common sense says stay away from them.  I had a student complain one time that "everytime I go to this bar someone tries to pick a fight with me, what can I do?" DUHHH!!!! Stop going to that bar.

Students of self-defense really need to examine themselves and find out how many of their choices are driven by good safety awareness and how much is driven by their ego.  "I shouldn't have to leave...", "I have just as much of a right...."  etc. etc.


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## elder999 (Mar 13, 2006)

kickcatcher said:
			
		

> paranoia, which I guess some do.
> 
> The internet is full of big talkers who go on about how if someone "invades" their home they'll shoot them etc. They cite how dangerous the world is as a justification etc. I think it's mostly talk. Even in war most soldiers shoot to miss (1950s US army studies, forget the exact statistics). Maybe these big talkers have weapons fetishes and actually dream that someone might give them an excuse to _legally_ justify their hobby by shooting someone.


 
Nope, no weapons fetish, and here in the U.S. I don't need an excuse to "justify my hobby."-it is _*legal*_-in fact, it's my right to bear arms.  Having deployed firearms, both at home and under other circumstances, I can say that I'm glad I've never had to shoot another person, but I would: if someone invades my home (and, quotes  notwithstanding, if someone breaks into my home and I'n there, that's what they're doing) I will shoot them rather than talk, de-escalate, reasess, or anything else, and if it turns out to be some drunken stupid teenager, then I will have to live with the regret that maybe I could have done those things, but I will be alive.


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