# Forgiveness and Submission



## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2007)

Can forgiveness lead to submission?  If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?  Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 29, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission? If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?


 
In my eyes, yes.



upnorthkyosa said:


> Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


 
In my eyes, no.


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## CuongNhuka (Dec 29, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission? If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated? Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


 
That depends, do you mean my thoughts, or what the Bible says? I think the Bible (or Bible thumpers) would say that ultimate forgiveness leads to ultimate power (who can insult someone who only forgives you for it?). But I'm not so sure if it would go that far or say that ultimate forgiveness leads to submission.

I'm not the most helpful of sorts, am I?


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## Makalakumu (Dec 29, 2007)

My initial thoughts on this are that pure forgiveness (in the Christian sense) would lead to pure submission to that which needed to be forgiven.  However, I may be missing something.  In fact, I wonder if forgiveness and submission need to be tied together at all?  Or if the reality is that some sort of middle ground is struck and pure forgiveness really doesn't exist...


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission?  If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?  Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?



Forgiveness is not the same as "forgetting" or as accepting the behavior and compromising your values.

Example, if someone steals money from me, I can forgive them in the sense that I don't harbor resentment towards them, or wish them ill will or wish to take revenge. But that doesn't mean that I have to hang around that person and pretend like nothing happened, or trust that person now because I forgive them. Further, that doesn't mean that I have to facilitate for that person to have no consequence for their action. And especially, because I forgive that person that doesn't mean that I have to now allow them to steal from me again.

Forgiveness in the Christian sense is actually quite genius. That is because it actually is for me and not necessarily for the person who wronged me. If someone wrongs me and I choose to not forgive them, then negative thoughts and resentment and skepticism now negatively affects my life. By not forgiving, I allow that persons wrongdoing to hurt me. Forgiving allows me to move on with a free conscious.

I make it a point to forgive everyone, even if I would later have to kill them...


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## Big Don (Dec 30, 2007)

I don't know.
I do know the hardest person to forgive is yourself, and that knowing the aforementioned fact doesn't make it a damn bit easier to do.

I also know John F Kennedy said:


> Forgive your enemies, but remember their names


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

one time i was so close to understanding life as it is.  i almost could see all possibilities potentials as well as the truth of how things seem to be.

then i came up with the term forgiveness.  i thought about it for a while but then lost it again.  if we really had forgiveness all the time, our world would be very different.

but i think the answer to your question is, yes it is possible.  saying one forgives may not truly be forgiveness because that ultimately comes from the heart and is impossible to measure perfectly.

forgiveness goes deeper than blame.  blame will not go away easily but with time and forgiveness it can even completely vanish. so forgiveness and blame are not directly connected.  this is really strange.  -  in the heart sutra it says that something can be nothing and that nothing can be something, that all things shapeless can take shape and all shape are in essence shapeless.

but forgiveness in itself could be seen as a gateway to another realm.  or forgiveness is the other realm.  but wherever it is, all wrongs long to be forgiven.

i had this feeling that forgiveness was a key to understaning and transcending our own human limitations.

but if that doesnt work just smash their head in.




j


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## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> Forgiveness is not the same as "forgetting" or as accepting the behavior and compromising your values.
> 
> Example, if someone steals money from me, I can forgive them in the sense that I don't harbor resentment towards them, or wish them ill will or wish to take revenge. But that doesn't mean that I have to hang around that person and pretend like nothing happened, or trust that person now because I forgive them. Further, that doesn't mean that I have to facilitate for that person to have no consequence for their action. And especially, because I forgive that person that doesn't mean that I have to now allow them to steal from me again.
> 
> ...


 
So the phrase "forgive and forget" is not "real" forgiveness?  I see what you are saying, but it sounds as if some sort of middle ground has been struck...


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## Ray (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission? If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated? Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


e.g. Forgiveness does not mean that a criminal forgoes the debt to society; It means that I will not live with the disease of seeking revenge on another...that if he/she truely rehabs, then I won't begrudge that person the right to earn a living or to live in the house next door.

If forgiveness is after the offense, then the question becomes: do I submit to the offense in the first place?  Reasonable defense, in line with the (bodily or property) attack is proper; otherwise sticks and stones.


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## Kacey (Dec 30, 2007)

In theory, it should be possible to forgive any wrong.  I'm not sure I'm understanding what you mean when you say "submit"; I think the two concepts can be mutually exclusive, but do not have to be.

I can forgive someone their actions, and still find the actions wrong, even reprehensible.  Then, too, there is the need to learn from actions, both of one's own and others'.  There is a phrase "never to forgive, never to forget" that is used in quite few contexts, but I first learned it in religious school; being Jewish, we spent a significant amount of time on the Holocaust - and in that context the above phrase dovetails with "those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it".  Forgiveness, we were taught, leads to forgetfulness - and forgetting the atrocities of the Holocaust could open the door to a repetition.  Thus, we must learn from history so that we do not repeat it.

Even on a personal, rather than societal level, forgiveness will depend on the nature of the transgression, as will submission, the sense you apparently mean it.  Someone steals from you because their child is starving - that can be forgiven, but may lead to better locks or an alarm system to prevent a recurrence.  Someone steals your car to support a drug habit - that too can be forgiven, but the next car may well have a locking bar on the steering wheel and a LoJack system in addition to a standard alarm.

So to get back to the original questions:



> Can forgiveness lead to submission?



It can... but possible and likely are two different issues.



> If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?



I don't believe so.  Forgiving a wrong does not make it right.



> Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?



Yes.


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission?  If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?  Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?




I don't believe forgiveness leads to submission, nor does it negate the action being forgiven. Forgiveness is for the benefit of the forgiver, not the forgiven. You can forgive someone you haven't seen for something that was done long ago. Forgiveness also doesn't mean you become a doormat, taking everything that's thrown at you, forgiveness frees you from bitterness and all the negativity you carry with you when you hold a grudge, it is NOT saying the action being forgiven is ok, and the consequences the other person may suffer for their action does not go away. It simply means you will no longer let the other person continue to hurt you by carrying around the offense. You let it go. You forgive them.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> So the phrase "forgive and forget" is not "real" forgiveness?  I see what you are saying, but it sounds as if some sort of middle ground has been struck...



I just don't think that philisophically, forgiveness HAS to go hand and hand with forgetting, although it can. I think the ol' "forgive and forget" mantra was a modern add on, and therefore forgiveness is often confused with forgetting and letting someone hurt you all over again. And I just don't think that forgiveness has to be that way, or was meant to be that way in the Christian sense.

But by our standards, maybe it does seem like a middle ground... :idunno:


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Dec 30, 2007)

> Can forgiveness lead to submission? If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated? Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


 To me forgiving someone is forgiving their mistake or lack of thought in what ever area I am forgiving them in. You are not submitting to their action and cause rather you are accepting the cause and action.
To me I think of it as a parent forgiving their child accepting action and cause effect with compassion and understanding of why. I do not think you can reject the wrong because that is the cause of forgiveness with out that what are you forgiving? Rather it is accepting the wrong and all the cause and effects that are produced from it. Forgiving is a powerful force.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2007)

Cruentus said:


> I just don't think that philisophically, forgiveness HAS to go hand and hand with forgetting, although it can. I think the ol' "forgive and forget" mantra was a modern add on, and therefore forgiveness is often confused with forgetting and letting someone hurt you all over again. And I just don't think that forgiveness has to be that way, or was meant to be that way in the Christian sense.
> 
> But by our standards, maybe it does seem like a middle ground... :idunno:



To follow up from your previous example:

If one forgives a person for stealing money form them. And if they never see that person again, then over time they may forget. But as pointed out if one does not forgive them then they must spend time thinking about it and they will never be able to forget at all. 

While I agree the two are not required for a person to forgive and to forget. But if one is to forget then one should get in a state of mind where it is no matter and the first step is forgiveness. 

An example of this, is dealing with "ex's". If you always remember all the stuff they did to you and always think about it then one can hate them and or still have other feelings for them. But, if one truly wants to get over them, then allow what they did to wash over you, and move on, for until you let it go, one cannot move on themselves. 

If one needs a personal reason to let it go, do not allow the other person that much control over you. If you ignore them, and move on, then they no longer have control or power over you. 

Now this does nto mean you have to submit to them. If your "ex" beat you and you have moved on the only way you have submitted to this is if you then set yourself up to be with someone who will beat you again. The same goes with people who steal from you. Find "better" people to hang out with. Or find teh "Better" within the person and help them bring it out. 

Good Luck.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

when i was thinking of forgiveness, i was thinking of something like an whole different state of mind.  nothing too new to me.  however, when i looked closer, i could see just how difficult the application of this idea of forgiveness is. also, it becomes more of an issue when you interact with all the hurt and misunderstanding that there is out there.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

forgiving i find noble but forgeting might not be good-(?) most often it is not positive.  but  for every rule theres exceptions  right.

submission is one part of communication. it doesnt imply any kind of force or even unjustified force. 
all actions passive and active in essence could be linked to the passive or the active elements of life.  especially if one changes the paradigm suddenly.  for example there are more spiritual or nonphysical explainations for things like religion for example. 
  if someone asks for forgiveness and they are honest, i myself am quite quick to submit.  however, if i think they are not honest???  -  ultimately i think one can forgive in silence and don't need to be living with the person.

j


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## Live True (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission? If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated? Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


 
Cruentus,  Jade Tigress and Rich Parsons all hit the nail on the head in saying forgiving is for you, not for the other person, and they cover the best reasons why this is so...but here is another thought that might address submission/the wrong perpetrated/and rejecting the wrong done

*Short and sweet of a true story:* 
-abusive husband finally crosses line that "wakes" up spouse, so she leaves and seeks divorce
-after the initial usual public nastiness (he said/she said...confrontations, etc), she very openly forgives spouse (to him, freinds, etc.)
-She states that what he did was wrong, but she wants to look herself in the mirror with no guilt or bitterness.  She is more than ready to get back to living her life.
-She apparently does move on, lets go, and builds a life that fits her better.
-here's the interesting side note:  After much public and private whining and complaining, abusive husband stops drinking, gets his diabetes properly treated (in this case was affecting mental/emotions), moves away, and gets a new wife, whom he does not beat.

So in having the best revenge of living well and moving on (for her sake), the very act of forgiveness, IMHO, also had a positive effect.  It not only rejected the offensive behaviour, it eventually was one of several things (I'm sure) that eventually changed the behaviour.

Everyone wins....
Forgiveness can be very powerful, but it should never be an act of forgetting or accepting poor behaviour or actions.  It should be a very definate rejection of the wrong and an equally clear message of moving on oneself.


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## jks9199 (Dec 30, 2007)

Forgiveness, as others have said, is internal; I forgive someone else.  Contrition is also internal; I realize I've wronged someone, and seek their forgiveness.  The action in both is inside me.  I can't impose forgiveness on someone else, anymore than I can make them feel contrition.  

Submission, though, can be imposed.  I can literally or psychologically beat someone into submission; if they can't resist anymore, I've imposed submission upon them.  There is an inward action of submission, when I as the person sumbitting surrender my will.

I don't see forgiveness and submission as being related; you can submit to something, and never forgive the person who did it.  (I imagine many rape victims can identify with this statement.)  Or, you can forgive a person, without submitting to what they've done.

Forgiveness is also healing; as Ray said.  If I carry around a load of blame/hatred/unforgiveness, it's exhausting, and it poisons almost every interaction.  If I dump that negative emotion, I'm able to enter every other relationship more cleanly.  Accepting someone else's forgiveness is also healing; there's nothing like the feeling of knowing that someone has forgiven you for something which you feel true contrition for.

But neither forgiveness, contrition, nor submission, removes the moral duty to balance or correct the wrong you did, either.


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## tellner (Dec 30, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> Can forgiveness lead to submission?


It certainly can if you believe that you are obligated to forgive wrongs no matter what. It's even worse if the injuring party or another _demands_ it.

I am required by my religious beliefs to forgive anyone who honestly and contritely requests it and makes good whatever injury he has done to me. But it is my call as to whether the person is sincere and whether he has repaired the damage or if it's even possible.



> If one forgives every person who has ever hurt anyone does that a person to submit to whatever wrong has been perpetrated?


Nothing prevents someone from trying to prevent the hurt. And nothing requires him to be a doormat or to give anyone a free pass for damages done or wrongs that will be repeated. If someone turns away from his evil, does what he can to right the wrong he did and begs forgiveness it is better to offer it than to seek vengeance.



> Can a person completely forgive and still reject whatever wrong initiated the forgiveness?


Certainly. Forgiveness doesn't mean that no wrong was done. 

Suppose I cheated on my wife. I know it's wrong. But suppose I went to her and said "I ****ed up. I spent a whole night in the pond with six lady frogs. It won't happen again." She'd be within her rights to be angry. I wouldn't be surprised or feel like she was out of line if she cut off my balls or put me in the hospital. But if she had mercy on me and felt like the relationship and I were salvageable she might decide to forgive me and let go of her (justified) anger. It wouldn't come cheap. It wouldn't come easy. There would have to be serious promises made and kept. I expect she would forgive me completely even if she wouldn't forget, and there's no question that she would reject the bad thing I had done to her.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

tellner said:


> I am required by my religious beliefs to forgive anyone who honestly and contritely requests it and makes good whatever injury he has done to me. But it is my call as to whether the person is sincere and whether he has repaired the damage or if it's even possible.
> 
> Nothing prevents someone from trying to prevent the hurt. And nothing requires him to be a doormat or to give anyone a free pass for damages done or wrongs that will be repeated. If someone turns away from his evil, does what he can to right the wrong he did and begs forgiveness it is better to offer it than to seek vengeance.



That is very interesting, and a slightly different take on things. May I ask, what religious belief are you ascribing too that illustrates forgiveness in this way?


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## Kacey (Dec 30, 2007)

Judaism mandates forgiveness, if it is asked for.



> "It is forbidden to be obdurate and not allow yourself to be appeased. On the contrary, one should be easily pacified and find it difficult to become angry. When asked by an offender for forgiveness, one should forgive with a sincere mind and a willing spirit. . . forgiveness is natural to the seed of Israel." (Mishneh Torah, _Teshuvah_ 2:10)


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

Kacey said:


> Judaism mandates forgiveness, if it is asked for.



Right, it is the "if it is asked for" part of it that is a different rendition on forgiveness then conventional Christianity, where you are supposed to forgive regardless of whether or not a person is "sorry" or asks for forgiveness. Then there is the element that you don't have to believe the sincerity of the person asking for forgiveness, and therefore do not have to forgive the person.

So, it's just a bit different then other views. I am not making a judgement on it good or bad, I was just wondering what views Tellner is ascribing too for academic reasons, really...


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## tellner (Dec 30, 2007)

Cruentus, as Kacey says it's Judaism. The tradition has it that sins against the Almighty are the easiest. Hashem is generous if you take the proper steps - Stop doing the Bad Thing; realize it was wrong and admit it; try not to do it again; accept the consequences of your action. As far as G-d is concerned it's all good. At that point you've made _teshuvah_ often called "repentance" but literally "return". Wrongs done to your fellow man? Those you have to work out with him by manning up, doing what needs to be done to remove the harm and sincerely asking for his forgiveness. Once you've done that he's obligated to accept what you did in the spirit it was offered and answer with mercy and forbearance. 

There's also a good bit of Sufi sensibility here. There are things for G-d says you _may_ take vengeance. But from the mercy and forgiveness are better. A murderer can escape execution if the family of the victim chooses mercy for the sake of the Most High. You're obligated to do good and prevent evil. But you are also supposed to be merciful, generous and understanding of human weakness.

In both the Jewish and Sufi traditions the important thing is that it's part of the process of returning to the Source. That process requires intention. Without the intention on the wrongdoer's part to make good and change his ways forgiveness is meaningless. If the wronged party holds onto his hurt and refuses to take part in the process he harms himself.


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## tellner (Dec 30, 2007)

There's about a thousand other things that could be said on the subject. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my particular beliefs here. It's just where they came from and what they are.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

sorry but i forgot to mention that it is a fact that people impose their wills on others in many ways.  i think the word is solliciting or coning.-sometimes, things can be so subtle and convoluted that it is hard to tell exactly who was the more imposing in a certain situation... -sometimes i find i  cannot come to any  logical  final statements--but why not just let yourself feel what you feel-i see no reason to deny or repress or even to make things out to be nicer than they are.  the best would be total communication and acceptance even with no physical contact or even without sharing the same pleasures of life with the other.

today i had a wild idea, i thought that everyone is using bits of truths for the purpose of hurting each other.  i think the hardest kinds of actions to forgive are those which are on purpose and or with harmful intent.  again, i think that the mental channels are more suited to doing damage to a person and getting away with it.  there is no active niceness police or anything like that- there are certain establishments and bodies that make it their buisiness to influence things from time to time, and there are vigilantes or passerbys who simply act out of instinct or from their heart.  for the most part i would say we live in a free world, and i am thankful for that.   but what's worse than physical violence even are ways of controlling the mind. 

i also believe that it is almost impossible to communicate to someone else so as to hurt them without hurting yourself just the same in some way. at the end of the day, we have only ourselves to be angry at.- 
sounds philosophical, but id probably react just as crazy as some people do in an extremely shocking situation.  but the attitude of forgiveness and understanding will go a long way in any case, may even diffuse negativity. 
it's not the bodies or the ideologies that fight each other and betray each other, it's the people.  so that would be a way to really take everything serious and at the same time not take the superficial things that seriously.   
so in my opinion, it is better to communicate and fight than to feign forgiveness.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2007)

sorry i know it's stupid retorting myself. not that it matters....


conversely. 

one could also say that ideologies are at war and all the victims are innocent.


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## Cruentus (Dec 30, 2007)

tellner said:


> There's about a thousand other things that could be said on the subject. I'm not trying to convert anyone to my particular beliefs here. It's just where they came from and what they are.



Awesome, bro. Thanks! I was just wondering for my own interest, as it always interests me to hear about belief systems that are different from my own, to get peoples perspective. From my traditions (Christian and Zen Buddhism) vengence is a no-no; but seeking out someone to stop further injustice is not.  So the take is different slightly from what I am used too, which is why it interested me to hear about it.

Thanks again!  :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Dec 30, 2007)

This has been one of the more informative threads that I've posted on MT.  Thank you everyone for your opinions...  :asian:


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## tellner (Dec 31, 2007)

Cruentus, you might be interested in checking out some of the Christian texts that are being translated into English in the last couple years. Groups like the Nestorians fled persecution in the West but kept their traditions further East. A lot of the writings - many about the 'lost years' - are just making their way back. 

Something that might make you nod your head and smile:

Our Silat teacher is as good and committed a Christian as you'll ever want to meet. In a thread long time back there was a discussion of "what do you admire most about your teacher". For me it wasn't his martial arts skills, which are formidable, or his fighting ability, which is frightening. It's the way he and his wife embody real Christian values like faith, charity, kindness and love in taking in stray everything over the years. That includes stray dogs (our first dog 's mother wandered into his garage during class one day and said "Hi! I'm starving. Take care of me."), cats, goats, wounded ducks, horses, at risk teenagers and young couples who need to get their feet on the ground. "What ye do unto the least of these my brethren, ye do also unto me." 

He also said a long time ago that anyone who is serious about martial arts needs to take "Buddhism 101" to get his brain working right. He's probably right. But right now I feel downright gods-ridden


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