# When does Taiji become Tai Cheese?



## East Winds (Jun 22, 2004)

Referring to another post on this board about Lee Family Arts and Taoist Tai Chi, it crossed my mind to ask, at what stage does Taiji cease to deserve the name Taiji and become something else? I have my own ideas but wondered what other subscriber thought.

Very best wishes


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2004)

Taiji becomes Tai CHeeeeeeeese (IMHO) when people quit realizing that taiji quan was meant to break people & hurt things as a means of self defense. Once they try to "blend with the world", "become one with the universe", "not hurt anybody" or "exercise" the essence is lost forever. Not saying those more esoteric practices can't/won't be developed by the practice of taiji quan, but it is a fighting art, period.


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## East Winds (Jun 22, 2004)

clfsean,

Pretty much my own opinion. Once you take the Ch'uan out of it, it is no longer Taiji. It might look like Taiji, but it most certainly won't be. I would also include proper body structure, so essential for martial applications and of course the use of the martial energies. There is a lot of crap out there masquerading as Taiji, but I guess that is always how it has been and how it will always remain.

Best wishes


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Pretty much my own opinion. Once you take the Ch'uan out of it, it is no longer Taiji. It might look like Taiji, but it most certainly won't be. I would also include proper body structure, so essential for martial applications and of course the use of the martial energies. There is a lot of crap out there masquerading as Taiji, but I guess that is always how it has been and how it will always remain.


Indeed...:jedi1:


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## pete (Jun 22, 2004)

Seperate the two.

Tai Chi (Tai Chi Chuan or Taijiquon...all the same), is a complete system of martial arts.  the forms practiced are one piece of the training.  the forms teach you to develop proper anotomical structure and a relaxed awareness necessary to progress in the art.  the forms internalize the principles and train the mind and body to move in unity.  the applications are not overtly displayed in the forms, also as a training device to teach one to conceal intent and not provide your enemy information which he can use against you.

Tai Chi progresses beyond the solo forms, to pushing hands... which begins as a cooperative exercise used to develop other skills within the art, such as listening, yielding, adhering, and following.  skills are developed which have an overly aggressive opponent exhaust himself and put himself into a position of disadvantage, from which a trained tai chi fighter can assume control.  Pushing hands is also a good reality check to test your stances and posture after practicing the solo form.

The applications within the form are also practiced as self defense techniques.  each movement can be interpreted as several or many different self defense techniques, depending on a scenario you'd create. the concepts of chin na (sieze and control) are tightly woven within the applications and again, the effectiveness of the techniques are dependant upon one's understanding and ability within the tai chi principles.

Without the martial applications, the Tai Chi form is a wonderful exercise, however is no longer Tai Chi.  It is aptly called Chi Kung (or Qigong). Rather than mock this as "Cheesey", recognize it for what it is.  Chi Kung can be translated as "energy work" which would include exercises derived from Tai Chi forms.  It is of great benefit to athletes who have aches and pains in their joints from Long Distance Running or Jogging, Tennis, or hard Martial Arts.  It has been proven to be help calm the nerves, lower blood pressure, and have positive influence on respiratory and circulatory systems.

There are many types of Chi Kung, but what I practice and speak of here is a Tai Chi based Chi Kung.  other styles like Iron Shirt or those specialized in breathing techniques are not what i'm speaking of here, as i am not familiar with these practices or their benefits.

Chi Kung is a good compliment to other systems of Martial Arts.  It can develop ones posture, awareness, internal energy and a better sense of balance, thus improving your ability to excel in another art.

pete


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## clfsean (Jun 22, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> Seperate the two.


Nope...




			
				pete said:
			
		

> Tai Chi (Tai Chi Chuan or Taijiquon...all the same), is a complete system of martial arts. the forms practiced are one piece of the training. the forms teach you to develop proper anotomical structure and a relaxed awareness necessary to progress in the art. the forms internalize the principles and train the mind and body to move in unity. the applications are not overtly displayed in the forms, also as a training device to teach one to conceal intent and not provide your enemy information which he can use against you.


Indeed for the most part... except quan is spelled with an "a" .... chi is spelled "ji"... 



			
				pete said:
			
		

> Tai Chi progresses beyond the solo forms, to pushing hands... which begins as a cooperative exercise used to develop other skills within the art, such as listening, yielding, adhering, and following. skills are developed which have an overly aggressive opponent exhaust himself and put himself into a position of disadvantage, from which a trained tai chi fighter can assume control. Pushing hands is also a good reality check to test your stances and posture after practicing the solo form.


Indeed again... 



			
				pete said:
			
		

> The applications within the form are also practiced as self defense techniques. each movement can be interpreted as several or many different self defense techniques, depending on a scenario you'd create. the concepts of chin na (sieze and control) are tightly woven within the applications and again, the effectiveness of the techniques are dependant upon one's understanding and ability within the tai chi principles.


Yet again agreement...



			
				pete said:
			
		

> Without the martial applications, the Tai Chi form is a wonderful exercise, however is no longer Tai Chi. It is aptly called Chi Kung (or Qigong). Rather than mock this as "Cheesey", recognize it for what it is. Chi Kung can be translated as "energy work" which would include exercises derived from Tai Chi forms. It is of great benefit to athletes who have aches and pains in their joints from Long Distance Running or Jogging, Tennis, or hard Martial Arts. It has been proven to be help calm the nerves, lower blood pressure, and have positive influence on respiratory and circulatory systems.


This is where I just gotta say no. Taiji quan is a fighting art. Without the "quan" or the intention of using it as such, why not call it Tai Cheese? That's all it is... a pizza without toppings!

Qigong is qigong. It can be done in conjunction with an "empty" taiji quan form (if that's how you want to do it), but qigong has its own postures & motions for opening certain channels at certain points after certain results have been achived. Hence... Yi Jin jing, Ba Duan Jing, Hua To Wu Shou Sheng Fa & Shi Fa, gongs for specific arts (Taiji Chan Si Gong example), etc.... 



			
				pete said:
			
		

> There are many types of Chi Kung, but what I practice and speak of here is a Tai Chi based Chi Kung. other styles like Iron Shirt or those specialized in breathing techniques are not what i'm speaking of here, as i am not familiar with these practices or their benefits.


See above...



			
				pete said:
			
		

> Chi Kung is a good compliment to other systems of Martial Arts. It can develop ones posture, awareness, internal energy and a better sense of balance, thus improving your ability to excel in another art.
> 
> pete


I practice qigong in Choy Lay Fut.... pretty much every martial system has qigong of one type or another. Specific qigong sets are just that, specific sets built over time with experience, not watering down or diluting a fighting art. 

Taiji quan is just that... Grand Ultimate Fist. It's meant to defend & attack, with the added benefits of health, well being & all that good stuff. Remove the quan from taiji & it's just like putting water in your gas tank. It fills it up for sure, but I hope you never need it.


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## pete (Jun 22, 2004)

> That's all it is... a pizza without toppings!



sorry, but not everyone likes the anchovies~



> qigong has its own postures & motions for opening certain channels at certain points



as does the tai chi forms



> Remove the quan from taiji & it's just like putting water in your gas tank.



its more a matter of telling people what you are doing... to be tai chi, it must include the spiritual, the physical, and the martial otherwise it is incomplete, not "grand ultimate".

chi kung, on the other hand, is a pretty much a generic term for energy work. this would include the non-martial tai chi, and exercises which have been derived from it.  

its not cheesey, it is what it is...

again, there are people out there that can take advantage of the many health benefits without an interest in, as you've stated, _"break people and hurt things"_, or that have already found enough ways to defend themselves in another martial art.  to these people, i suggest Chi Kung for the reasons already stated.

personally, i like the complete art, tai chi, but continue to practice and teach chi kung as well.  

pete.


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## East Winds (Jun 22, 2004)

Pete,

Good points, but please do not confuse Qigong with Taijiquan. They are separate disciplines. Yes, they may be closely inter-related and both can be practiced as a martial art. And while Qigong can be practised only for health, Taijiquan is a martial art. I practice Zhan Zhuang (both for health and its martial asprect) and Zhan Zhuang (or mind boxing) is a martial form of Qigong. The real health benefits of Taijiquan (and martial Qigong) come from relating the martial postures (i.e. correct body alignment and applicability as a martial application) to opening the channels of energy. Until you have attained this combination you would be as well doing Line Dancing or aerobics. You will get the same benefits. The question of spirit in Taijiquan is much misinterpreted by the "new agers" and is included in Taicheeeese as some form of communing with nature. Spirit in Taijiquan is more correctly translated as "Shen"  and has nothing to do with spirituality. I content that the removal of the martial from taijiquan equates to the removal of the heart and spirit of the art and what remains should therefore not be called taiji. 

with very best wishes


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## clfsean (Jun 23, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Pete,
> 
> Good points, but please do not confuse Qigong with Taijiquan. They are separate disciplines. Yes, they may be closely inter-related and both can be practiced as a martial art. And while Qigong can be practised only for health, Taijiquan is a martial art. I practice Zhan Zhuang (both for health and its martial asprect) and Zhan Zhuang (or mind boxing) is a martial form of Qigong. The real health benefits of Taijiquan (and martial Qigong) come from relating the martial postures (i.e. correct body alignment and applicability as a martial application) to opening the channels of energy. Until you have attained this combination you would be as well doing Line Dancing or aerobics. You will get the same benefits. The question of spirit in Taijiquan is much misinterpreted by the "new agers" and is included in Taicheeeese as some form of communing with nature. Spirit in Taijiquan is more correctly translated as "Shen" and has nothing to do with spirituality. I content that the removal of the martial from taijiquan equates to the removal of the heart and spirit of the art and what remains should therefore not be called taiji.
> 
> with very best wishes


Indeed.... with out Shen, you have no Xin, you have no Yi in the technique... hence a slo-mo Mambo  (no offense to Mambo dancers... y'all have Shen/Xin/Yi in your dances!)

Pete... we are going to have to agree to disagree bottom line.


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## pete (Jun 23, 2004)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Pete... we are going to have to agree to disagree bottom line.



So, if i understand your bottom line: 

_Chi Kung is cheesey, no martial intent=no value.  Tai Chi (the full package) is the only way to go...otherwise, you're dancing with the cheese. Chi Kung cannot be separated from Tai Chi. the two cannot peacefully coexist for those who choose to practice Chi Kung without Tai Chi_.

yep... we do disagree... i say it's an informed decision to be made by the individual. don't advertise Chi Kung as Tai Chi, but also don't mock it as some sort of dairy product...

pete.


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## clfsean (Jun 23, 2004)

pete said:
			
		

> So, if i understand your bottom line:
> 
> _Chi Kung is cheesey, no martial intent=no value. Tai Chi (the full package) is the only way to go...otherwise, you're dancing with the cheese. Chi Kung cannot be separated from Tai Chi. the two cannot peacefully coexist for those who choose to practice Chi Kung without Tai Chi_.
> 
> ...


Nope... I think you're a little off... 

Taijiquan is a Martial Art used for offensive & defensive protection of a person or persons
Qi Gong is an exercise used to cultivate a body's natural energies by using subtle, specific motions & exercises
Taiji quan incorporates qi gong as part of its training regimen
Qi gong does not necessarily incorporate taiji quan as part of its training regimen. It uses specific methods & motions to open & close meridians & channels necessary to the successful completion of the desired exercise hence methods such as 8 Pieces of the Brocade, Muscle Change Classic, Hua To's Animal Play, Wild Goose, etc...
The removal of the "quan" aspect from taiji produces a watered down, near useless dance. It removes the heart, spirit & intent of taiji quan.
The adovcation of tai chi as a form of qi gong is a misnomer & misleading
That's what I'm saying...

We disagree. That's the bottom line.


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## pete (Jun 23, 2004)

> Nope... I think you're a little off...



well, yeah, otherwise we wouldn't be doing this stuff... i'll take that as a compliment~



> Taijiquan is a Martial Art used for offensive & defensive protection of a person or persons



yes and no... defensive in nature, but within the defense is where the offensive is found.  



> Qi Gong is an exercise used to cultivate a body's natural energies by using subtle, specific motions & exercises



no problem there... 



> Taiji quan incorporates qi gong as part of its training regimen



again, i'd go further to say the chi kung is within the tai chi



> Qi gong does not necessarily incorporate taiji quan as part of its training regimen



here is where you agree with me! 



> The removal of the "quan" aspect from taiji produces a watered down, near useless dance. It removes the heart, spirit & intent of taiji quan.



here is where we part ways... while it is no longer tai chi, it is far from useless and can remain a fine chi kung.  i'd agree that the full benefits are not realized until the full art is practiced... but with proper anotomical posture, movements, and awareness there are many benefits for those not interested in fighting.



> The adovcation of tai chi as a form of qi gong is a misnomer & misleading



but not the advocation of Chi Kung derived from Tai Chi, and stated as such.
I'm not trying to sell you a bicycle by calling it an automobile... but it will provide transportation.



> That's what I'm saying...We disagree. That's the bottom line.



you are correct here!  

best wishes in your journey...

pete


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## East Winds (Jun 23, 2004)

Got to agree with most of what clfsean is saying. I dont think anyone was saying Qigong was cheesy. I certainly wasn't. As I say I practice Zhan Zhuang and its martial equivalent Da Cheng Chuan (Yi Chuan). And yes if you want to practise only Qigong and not Taijiquan, then that is OK. My point was about the people who who claim to teach Taijiquan with no martial content. I say that at that stage, (if there is no martial content) then it is not taiji. It might properly be called Taoist Health Exercises or any other name you want to attach to it, but don't call it taijiquan. That's my argument, plain and simple. The Taoist Tai Chi Society specifically prohibit the practise or even mention of any martial aspect, yet they claim to teach taijiquan. Don't understand that I'm afraid.

Very best wishes


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## pete (Jun 23, 2004)

> if you want to practise only Qigong and not Taijiquan, then that is OK.



my point, exactly!



> My point was about the people who who claim to teach Taijiquan with no martial content... if there is no martial content then it is not taiji.



agree! 



> The Taoist Tai Chi Society specifically prohibit the practise or even mention of any martial aspect, yet they claim to teach taijiquan.



don't know of this group, but doesn't sound kosher... there may be a place for these guys (again i know nothing about them), but sounds like they need truth in advertising, and call there "product" what it is...

pete.


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## Guro Harold (Jun 26, 2004)

Not only is there a lack of Martial Applications,  if there are martial applications, can the instructor execute them effectively with good form.

I performing at a demo and before me was a tai chi master who fell doing a martial application, not good!


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 28, 2004)

What's really in a name?  It doesn't matter to most people if it has martial applications or not, so who am I to force it on them.  If the art has a benefit to it, teaches the Tai Chi form, and people are attracted to it, is it really NOT Tai Chi Chuan simply because they aren't learning the "real" meaning behind the moves?  If I practice kung fu and don't spar, am I not still learning Kung Fu?  If I dribble a ball and shoot it through a hoop but don't play in a basketball game, is it still basketball?

Don't get me wrong, I practice and appreciate the martial applications behind the moves.  I find I learn and understand the form more deeply because of it.  But why bash people that just haven't seen the light yet?  Let them learn a little and then learn what they're missing.  If they want it, they'll then gravitate towards that.  Many people don't want the martial applications and stay away from many arts because of it.  I think it's better to at least get them in the door.

As far as "false advertising" goes, it's not like advertising a car and giving a bike.  It's more like advertising a car, you envision the model you want, and end up with a VW.  If you expected a Porche, you're disappointed.  If you only expected a VW, then you're happy.

WhiteBirch


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## East Winds (Jun 28, 2004)

WhiteBirch,

Interesting take on the subject. I suppose if you only have superficial interets in your art, you wont care what is being taught in its name. "I find I learn and understand the form more deeply because of it". Sorry, don't understand that reasoning. Taijiquan is a martial art and the martial postures are put together to  "make" the form. Not the other way round as you are suggesting. I have studied my art diligently now for 15 years and I strongly object to some "snake oil seller" peddling something that he calls taijiquan. If that is the depth of your interest, can I suggest line dancing as an alternative?

Very best wishes

Alistair


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## clfsean (Jun 28, 2004)

*wince* .... ouch.... 

Gotta remember that whole "the truth will set you free" line... :mp5:


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## lvwhitebir (Jun 29, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> WhiteBirch,
> 
> Interesting take on the subject. I suppose if you only have superficial interets in your art, you wont care what is being taught in its name. "I find I learn and understand the form more deeply because of it". Sorry, don't understand that reasoning. Taijiquan is a martial art and the martial postures are put together to  "make" the form. Not the other way round as you are suggesting.



I don't mean to suggest that.  What I mean is I can perform the movements of the form without understanding any of the martial reasoning.  You wave your arms in a certain way, and voila, you end up looking the same.  I personally find that the martial reasoning helps me understand what my arms and legs are actually doing.  Even if I have a student that says they don't care about the martial aspect, I tell them that they should learn it so that they know what they're learning, why it works that way, and that it will help them remember the pattern of the movements.




			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> I have studied my art diligently now for 15 years and I strongly object to some "snake oil seller" peddling something that he calls taijiquan. If that is the depth of your interest, can I suggest line dancing as an alternative?



Hmm... medical studies have been done to death on Tai Chi.  The studies have generally nothing to do with the martial aspect, so even if a student learns the movements without martial intent, they can still benefit.  Yes I believe they are limiting themselves, but they still can benefit so I'm willing to work with them.  If nothing else, I can try to entice them to learn the why's and wherefore's later.

What is Tai Chi Chuan?  Is the Short Form still Tai Chi Chuan?  What about the 48-Step Form?  What about the Sword Form or the Staff Form?  If you only learn and practice the Short Form for 20 years, are you still doing Tai Chi Chuan -- you're only learning a part of the art -- IMO the same as if you didn't learn the "martial moves."  So, IMO, you *are* learning Tai Chi Chuan, you're just not learning the whole art.

In the end, my point is this...



> Discouragement
> by Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming
> ...
> My master took a look at me and said, "Little Yang, why do you look around at what others are doing? When you plow a field, plow it because you want to plow. You do not plow because others make you plow. You do not plow for others approval. So why would you look around at others? Why would you care? If you look around and see that you are ahead of others, you would become proud of yourself and then you would become lazy. If you are behind, you would become depressed and discouraged. Dont look around, simply bow your head, look down and keep plowing. One day, when you feel tired and take a break, you will look around and suddenly you will realize that there is no one around you. You have left them far far behind you. You will see how far you have gone and yes, you can take some pride in that, but then you look ahead and see how far there is still to go (and there will always be more to go). Thats when you put your head back down and go back to plowing."
> ...



It's kind of ironic.  When you get away from the Taoist mentality, we start generating a "mine" mindset and which is "better."  From a Taoist mentality, from which Tai Chi is based, there isn't a mine or a better -- there just is.

The point is, you can argue until you're blue in the face, but you can't win.  You can't tell them that what they're doing isn't right, you can name the thing anything you want, but that won't change a thing.  So... why even waste the breath and time.  IMO, it's better to be the best that you are and can be rather than worrying about what everyone else is doing.  Be a positive force rather than a negative force.

WhiteBirch


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## East Winds (Jun 30, 2004)

WhiteBirch,

Thanks for the input. I appreciate that Dr. Yang (no relation to the Yang family incidentally) was speaking metaphorically, but we practitioners of Traditional Yang Family Taijiquan have a different take on matters. My Master (Yang Zhen Ji, the second son of Yang Chen-fu) would say that you need to hold your head up (High Spirit), look to where your opponent is and be aware of his intentions, be aware of what is in front of you and what is behind you, look ahead and fear nothing. Never look down!! By looking down you give the advantage to your opponent.

Taijiquan is more than merely performing a predetermined set of movements. If treachers are unaware of correct application techniques, how can they possibly teach correct body structure and correct posture? It is through correct body structure and posture that the energy gates and channels are opened.

Yes, bad Tai Chi will give you exercise, but then so will line dancing and to take up your analogy in a previous post about basketball, no you are not playing basketball, you are only throwing a ball through a hoop!!! My point exactly about Tai Cheese!

You can do 24 step for a lifetime and still do it badly!! And yes I  practise Traditional Yang Family Sword and Sabre as a natural progression from the barehand form. 

If I had problems with my circulatory system, would I consult a plumber?

Too many people are satisfied by low quality tuition in the MA's and I have never claimed that my style was better than any other. Prior to settling on the study of Traditional Yang I sampled both Chen and Wu (and incidentally some Tai Cheese!!!!).

I will continue to push for a higher standard of teaching particularly in taijiquan, if others are happy to settle for less, then so be it!

Very best wishes

Alistair


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## lvwhitebir (Jul 1, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> Taijiquan is more than merely performing a predetermined set of movements. If treachers are unaware of correct application techniques, how can they possibly teach correct body structure and correct posture? It is through correct body structure and posture that the energy gates and channels are opened.



I agree with the first statement.  However, I still believe you can teach correct body structure and posture without really knowing the application of the techniques.  Unfortunately the studies' summaries don't say whether the practitioners were taught the martial aspect or not, but I surmise it wouldn't matter.  It might be interesting to see that aspect some day.



			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> I will continue to push for a higher standard of teaching particularly in taijiquan, if others are happy to settle for less, then so be it!



That's my point exactly.  Do the best you can and teach what you think is the proper focus of the art.  Show others that you're way is a great way to learn and is highly effective.  But, if others choose a different path, why spend your time and energy bashing them and forcing their art to have a different name.  Where's the authority that proves without a doubt that you're right and they're wrong.  There isn't one.  So it's a no-win battle and reminds me of 6-year-olds calling each other names.  All it does in the end is diminish the art because no one wants to get involved with the argument.  Embrace the difference to grow, there's probably something there that you can learn.

Besides, Tai Chi Chuan is a large art that has a great variety of sub-divisions.  Who's to say which "family" is "correct" if one removes teaching the martial applications and instead focuses on the health aspects.

WhiteBirch


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## East Winds (Jul 2, 2004)

WhiteBirch,

Thanks for the potted Taoist type philosophy.

I rememnber going to a advertised Tai Chi class where the teacher stood us in a circle round a lighted candle in the middle of the floor. We then held a crystal in the right hand, (the Yang hand) whilst the other hand, (the Yin hand) was empty. We then had to channel the Chi energy from the light of the candle through the right hand and into the Tantien. We were then taught how to walk the circle to increase the energy flow whilst chanting the Hen, Hah sounds.

Still, by your thinking, this is the type of teaching which should be encouraged and not criticised.

Ah well it takes all types!!

With very best wishes

Alistair


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## lvwhitebir (Jul 2, 2004)

East Winds said:
			
		

> I rememnber going to a advertised Tai Chi class where the teacher stood us in a circle round a lighted candle in the middle of the floor....



Sounds like the class was doing some sort of meditation that night.  Wow, that's terrible!  Perhaps, though, in later classes they learned the form and the martial applications along with it.  If so, is it not still Tai Chi?  Just because they did some sort of mediation you don't agree with or enjoy doesn't invalidate what they did.  I personally wouldn't have stayed for the class either.  I don't enjoy that aspect of the art as much.  I don't do a lot of meditation in my classes either, but I don't discount it or beat up the people that enjoy it either.



			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> Still, by your thinking, this is the type of teaching which should be encouraged and not criticised.



I don't remember saying 'encouraged' and if I did I appologize.  I just learn to gravitate to what I enjoy and stay away from the rest.  That doesn't mean I'm right and they're wrong, however.  They gravitate to what they enjoy.  So I don't 'discourage' it outright.  I don't like that kind of closed-mindedness; it stifles growth.

If they didn't learn specific aspects that I think are required for a school to advertise it as Tai Chi, then yes it's false advertising.  I just don't think that knowing the martial applications is a blanket requirement for all Tai Chi.  It's incomplete if you don't learn it, but not completely wrong.



			
				East Winds said:
			
		

> Ah well it takes all types!!



There you go... that's my point!  There's so many things to choose from, you can find what fits your needs and desires.  I would be very scared if every Tai Chi school was exactly the same.  So don't worry about whether to call it Tai Chi or Tai Cheese.  Until someone can list exactly what Tai Chi Chuan *is*, just do what you feel is right for you.

WhiteBirch


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