# Physical strength vs. Judo/Grappling adept



## Rob Schnyder (Jul 7, 2019)

It's a scenario that i often wonder, or even would like to see. It doesn't really happen in Judo obviously, because of divisions, and i haven't really seen it in other forms of martial art either.

The hypothetical scenario in question is, let's say we have an adept judoka, who is in let's say the 48kg 52kg divisions, with a height of around 5'2 - 5'4. And let's say this judoka chooses to use the Sankaku-jime as her submission of choice on her opponent. Picture below.





Now let's say her opponent is also a athlete, in this case a martial artist, but who is much larger, the person in question for this scenario is none other than Gabi Garcia, a 6ft+ BJJ machine. Picture below.





So the fight commences, and the judoka gets Garcia in a Sankaku, alike the picture above. Now we want Gabi to showcase her overwhelming size and physical strength only, against the small judoka, so Gabi is only allowed to use her arms and upper body (lets say her legs are tied down) to try and pry the judoka's leg apart, and free herself from the submission.

Would like to know what you think would happen in this scenario, would it be possible, even for somebody as massive and imposing as her?


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## drop bear (Jul 7, 2019)

So a bigger expert grappler?


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## Headhunter (Jul 8, 2019)

Lol Garcia is a joke. She's so obviously on steroids and her opponents are usually 60 year olds


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## frank raud (Jul 8, 2019)

So, basically you want a match between Gabby Garcia and Mackenzie Dern, under different rules, and Gabby only able to use  partial strength? Oddly specific hypothetical question. PS. Mackenzie has won against Gabby, she has also lost against her.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 8, 2019)

Rob Schnyder said:


> It's a scenario that i often wonder, or even would like to see. It doesn't really happen in Judo obviously, because of divisions, and i haven't really seen it in other forms of martial art either.
> 
> The hypothetical scenario in question is, let's say we have an adept judoka, who is in let's say the 48kg 52kg divisions, with a height of around 5'2 - 5'4. And let's say this judoka chooses to use the Sankaku-jime as her submission of choice on her opponent. Picture below.
> 
> ...


That's not strength vs. skill - it's strength and skill vs skill with significantly less strength. If the skill is equal, the strength is a differentiator. If the strength is equal, skill becomes a differentiator. If one is stronger, and the other more skilled, it comes down to the application of each. There's a great video of one of the Gracies grappling a professional bodybuilder (I think). The big guy is almost certainly stronger, but the Gracie in question handles him without breaking a sweat, because the big guy has no comparable grappling skill.


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## drop bear (Jul 8, 2019)

And by the way. Yes a really strong person can power out of that submission.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jul 8, 2019)

Rob Schnyder said:


> Now we want Gabi to showcase her overwhelming size and physical strength only, against the small judoka, so *Gabi is only allowed to use her arms and upper body (lets say her legs are tied down)* to try and pry the judoka's leg apart, and free herself from the submission.


It is possible for a bigger/stronger person to power out of a triangle choke, but it's going to be a _*lot*_ harder if they can't use their legs. Defenses against the position are generally based around moving your whole body (powered by the legs) rather than just prying the legs off with your arms.

Let's say this was Mackenzie Dern vs Gabi Garcia. (Dern is a bit bigger than your hypothetical, but I don't know offhand who the equivalent 52 kg champion would be.) If, during the course of a normal match, Dern managed to get Garcia in a triangle, then I'd say Garcia would have a pretty good chance of escaping, using a combination of technique and her superior size and strength. On the other hand, if Garcia was unable to use her legs, I'd say the odds would be heavily in Dern's favor.


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## Buka (Jul 8, 2019)

Welcome to Martial Talk, Rob.

Your post got me all Matrix thinking....


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## Gaucho (Jul 8, 2019)

"A good big guy will always beat a great little guy."
Bill Wallace


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## Rob Schnyder (Jul 9, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It is possible for a bigger/stronger person to power out of a triangle choke, but it's going to be a _*lot*_ harder if they can't use their legs. Defenses against the position are generally based around moving your whole body (powered by the legs) rather than just prying the legs off with your arms.
> 
> Let's say this was Mackenzie Dern vs Gabi Garcia. (Dern is a bit bigger than your hypothetical, but I don't know offhand who the equivalent 52 kg champion would be.) If, during the course of a normal match, Dern managed to get Garcia in a triangle, then I'd say Garcia would have a pretty good chance of escaping, using a combination of technique and her superior size and strength. On the other hand, if Garcia was unable to use her legs, I'd say the odds would be heavily in Dern's favor.




Thanks for the response Tony, yes sorry for not naming a specific Judoka in this scenario. Yes i agree Mcenzie Dern is a bit bigger than my hypothetical. But it is still a little unclear to me is, does it come down to size vs. size, because if this were the case i would have to agree with you, because side by side Dern's legs would (make even an athlete as large as Garcia) arms look really weak and small really. Or does it come down to specific strengths, for example Garcia having really developed arm musculature all round, and are built for short burst of power, compared to other judo practitioners arm size and musculature.

And another detail that i would like to mention is that Mcenzie has a pretty average build, she is not overly muscular, or really muscular at all, but at the same time she isn't skinny either.

Or is it simply the case of, the assailant's legs are bigger than the sufferer's arms, therefor it is a simple victory. Because in my mind if this were the case, then not even a 6ft + strongman athlete would have a chance, because again as big and strong as the male athlete would be, it is a fact that Dern's legs are bigger than said man's arms would be. Sorry to over-complicate things unnecessarily, but it is still pretty grey to me.


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## Rob Schnyder (Jul 9, 2019)

frank raud said:


> So, basically you want a match between Gabby Garcia and Mackenzie Dern, under different rules, and Gabby only able to use  partial strength? Oddly specific hypothetical question. PS. Mackenzie has won against Gabby, she has also lost against her.



Hi Frank, yes haha sorry to be so specific, but yes under specif rules. So it's basically the judoka obviously using her lower body in a sankaku-jime, and Garcia only being able to use her upper body, so her arms etc. The reason for this is there is really no min/max factor in the martial arts community, none that i've seen at least, and this is a really is a really fascinating topic for me, it would at least be fascinating to see/watch.


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## jobo (Jul 9, 2019)

Rob Schnyder said:


> Hi Frank, yes haha sorry to be so specific, but yes under specif rules. So it's basically the judoka obviously using her lower body in a sankaku-jime, and Garcia only being able to use her upper body, so her arms etc. The reason for this is there is really no min/max factor in the martial arts community, none that i've seen at least, and this is a really is a really fascinating topic for me, it would at least be fascinating to see/watch.


I'm having trouble with what you find so fascinating?

hold !ocks et al, are just the application of levers, there's no hold that can't be unheld, if the level of strength differential is large enough,  the problem with the very specific example your interested in, is that legs are generally much stronger than arms, so a weaker persons !legs may well be stronger than a stronger persons arms.

if your going to insist they can only use their arms, then no they won't escape, if they can generate power using the whole body then perhaps so.

if that was me in that hold with a100 lb ma, I would just stand up a d bang their head on the floor till they let go


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