# Ninjutsu is not a martial art.



## tim po (Dec 11, 2021)

Ninjutsu is not a martial art, it is part of a martial tradition. Jutsu indicates skillset, in this case, the skills related to Nin. Nin can be translated many ways, commonly as stealth, invisibility, perseverance, and intention. Taijutsu means 'body skills', and the martial art being referred to as Ninjutsu so often is called Ninpo Taijutsu.  Essentially what Ninjutsu consisted of in history were the skills of espionage, intelligence gathering, escape and evasion, and guerrilla warfare. Psychological tactics and camoflouge were certainly employed for fighting, but the Shinobi most of all wished to avoid open combat.  Their way was to blend in, to escape attention, to be 'invisible' at least in their intent.  Today, Ninjutsu is alive and well and grown immeasurably in degree of complexity. Any and everything one might gain skill in, that may enhance your capability to escape danger, can be considered Ninjutsu, if associated with the study of Ninpo.


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## Bill Mattocks (Dec 11, 2021)

tim po said:


> Ninjutsu is not a martial art, it is part of a martial tradition. Jutsu indicates skillset, in this case, the skills related to Nin. Nin can be translated many ways, commonly as stealth, invisibility, perseverance, and intention. Taijutsu means 'body skills', and the martial art being referred to as Ninjutsu so often is called Ninpo Taijutsu.  Essentially what Ninjutsu consisted of in history were the skills of espionage, intelligence gathering, escape and evasion, and guerrilla warfare. Psychological tactics and camoflouge were certainly employed for fighting, but the Shinobi most of all wished to avoid open combat.  Their way was to blend in, to escape attention, to be 'invisible' at least in their intent.  Today, Ninjutsu is alive and well and grown immeasurably in degree of complexity. Any and everything one might gain skill in, that may enhance your capability to escape danger, can be considered Ninjutsu, if associated with the study of Ninpo.


Great way to make friends.


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## tim po (Dec 11, 2021)

no disrespect intended. I just wonder why the category devoted to the martial arts of the Shinobi is mislabeled so.


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## geezer (Dec 11, 2021)

tim po said:


> no disrespect intended. I just wonder why the category devoted to the martial arts of the Shinobi is mislabeled so.


Shin-po nin-po kem-po _Tim-po!_ Do you practice Ninjutsu? 

....or just _pedantry?_


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## geezer (Dec 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> Shin-po nin-po kem-po _Tim-po!_ Do you practice Ninjutsu?
> 
> ....or just _pedantry?_


OK, I admit I'm digging into the Christmas chocolate a bit early and am getting carried away. Honestly, _no disrespect intended!_


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## tim po (Dec 11, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK, I admit I'm digging into the Christmas chocolate a bit early and am getting carried away. Honestly, _no disrespect intended!_


oh, thanks for explaining.  i thought you were just _that_ kind of geezer.


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## tim po (Dec 11, 2021)

and to answer your question, no, i am not involved with espionage, intelligence gathering, spycraft, or really much of anything that could be defined as Ninjutsu.


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## BrendanF (Dec 12, 2021)

> Forum is for discussion of the modern organizations that teach the original ninjutsu arts that are still in existence today. Discussion topics include, but are not limited to modern application for self defense, ranking, history of the organizations, and teaching themes.



Don't see any mention of 'martial' there myself.. if so inclined I'd probably take more issue with the phrase 'modern organisations that teach the original ninjutsu arts'


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## punisher73 (Dec 12, 2021)

What is your definition of a martial art?  What is your definition of a martial tradition?

I think that would help any discussion so everyone has the same starting point.


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## tim po (Dec 14, 2021)

I didn't mean to come across as such a judgy mcjudgypants, i could have done better in expressing this concern. there is so much hype and nonsense surrounding the Shinobi traditions, I had hoped that the community would by now have routed out alot of the mystique by avoiding commonly misunderstood terminology, like 'ninja' and 'ninjutsu'. but, i suppose it still sells memberships.

to answer your question, traditions kept alive beyond their relevance in modern application are what they are-living, but on life-support. that 'life-support' is the paying consumer. Martial Traditions are what remains of a Martial Art 100 years after it has ceased to exist in dynamic relevance. kept alive for it's wisdom, but not as functional as it was once, because it has stopped growing, adapting, and seeking relevance in a changing world. kinda like me, i suppose.  nothing exists in a static state. all in the universe as we know it is either growing or dying. nothing can remain as is forever, and tradition itself may impede creative expansion, barring a path of relevance into the future. If there is anything I hold dear that I have learned from the philosophy of Ninpo, it is the importance of full creative involvement on the part of the practitioner.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 14, 2021)

In my experience with traditional Chinese methods, they continue to be highly relevant today.  I guess the way I define the term traditional, is something that has been handed down from one generation to another, for some period of time.  Just exactly what that period of time is, or how many generations it needs to survive in order to be included as traditional, I suppose is open for debate.  But the fact that it continues to exist speaks to its effectiveness and continued relevance.  It is because people still find it useful and effective.  We do not practice simply to preserve a piece of history.  That history and tradition is interesting to many of us, but is not itself the point.  But at the same time we need to accept that these things continue to change, and how it is practiced today is not identical to how it was practiced 100 or 300 years ago.  The door needs to be open to that change, and that change does not alter the identity of that system.  It just means that it is adapted based on the current experiences of the practitioners.  

I think a big part of the problem is when people decide that they need to preserve a method based on how it was done at some specific date or era in the past.  That is when it becomes irrelevant, and a relic.  I always wonder: why that date or era?  None of these martial methods sprang forth fully formed in a vacuum.  They were all created by people, and that creation happened over time and over some generations to make it what it ultimately became.  Why does that process need to end on a certain date?  Why can it not continue with each new generation of practitioners?  That is how it remains relevant.


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## BrendanF (Dec 14, 2021)

tim po said:


> there is so much hype and nonsense surrounding the Shinobi traditions, I had hoped that the community would by now have routed out alot of the mystique by avoiding commonly misunderstood terminology, like 'ninja'



What's the difference between 'shinobi' and 'ninja'?


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## tim po (Dec 15, 2021)

the term Ninja was coined in the 1970's. the people who developed Ninjutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu were known throught history by many names, Shinobi no Mono (the people of Shinobi) was most common, from what i've read.


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## punisher73 (Dec 15, 2021)

tim po said:


> I didn't mean to come across as such a judgy mcjudgypants, i could have done better in expressing this concern. there is so much hype and nonsense surrounding the Shinobi traditions, I had hoped that the community would by now have routed out alot of the mystique by avoiding commonly misunderstood terminology, like 'ninja' and 'ninjutsu'. but, i suppose it still sells memberships.
> 
> to answer your question, traditions kept alive beyond their relevance in modern application are what they are-living, but on life-support. that 'life-support' is the paying consumer. Martial Traditions are what remains of a Martial Art 100 years after it has ceased to exist in dynamic relevance. kept alive for it's wisdom, but not as functional as it was once, because it has stopped growing, adapting, and seeking relevance in a changing world. kinda like me, i suppose.  nothing exists in a static state. all in the universe as we know it is either growing or dying. nothing can remain as is forever, and tradition itself may impede creative expansion, barring a path of relevance into the future. If there is anything I hold dear that I have learned from the philosophy of Ninpo, it is the importance of full creative involvement on the part of the practitioner.


So based on this definition.  Almost any koryu art is a "martial tradition" and not a martial art?  

People whom I have spoken to in the Bujinkan would probably argue that the art that they practice is being adapted to more modern times in how it deals with attacks.  One could probably even argue with the growing popularity of bushcrafting, outdoor survival and the "gray man" concept that "ninjutsu skills" are becoming more applicable again.


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## tim po (Dec 15, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> So based on this definition.  Almost any koryu art is a "martial tradition" and not a martial art?
> 
> People whom I have spoken to in the Bujinkan would probably argue that the art that they practice is being adapted to more modern times in how it deals with attacks.  One could probably even argue with the growing popularity of bushcrafting, outdoor survival and the "gray man" concept that "ninjutsu skills" are becoming more applicable again.


Koryu arts are steeped in tradition, but of any arts have remained relevant right up until the present, imo. when most martial arts began to teach adaptations for sport and exhobition, the Shinobi arts went back underground. Takamatsu Soke entered WWII as a spy, and I'll bet he was a damn good one. Ninpo Taijutsu still has no sport application, competitive sport itself is an adaptation to modern relevance, but a deviation from tradition, martial arts were for war not competition, although challenges and tournaments did exist, they were not the focus.
 agree, Ninpo is probably the most flexible of any martial philosophy to my knowledge. i do not think what i wrote should be interpretted to imply that Ninpo is a dead art, quite the opposite.  it is because of the evolving and adapting element that i have embraced it as the core of my training on a physical and philosophical level as it is complimentary to all of the many other things i seek knowledge of in the name of survival, like the themes you mentioned. 

I would take down my original post if i could, i did not clearly express what i was getting at and i see no need now to make the point at all. there are a lot of great conversations on here about these arts, i've scarcely commented because i have so little to add that has not been covered by people far more knowledgeable than me.
 Ninpo Ik Kan,
tim


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2021)

I really like the term "martial tradition."  Seems very appropriate for arts that are primarily focused on historical preservation and continuity.


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## Hanzou (Dec 15, 2021)

Aren't we at the point now where Ninjutsu practitioners don't even call themselves Ninjutsu practitioners or "Ninja" anymore?

That said, I see nothing wrong with what the OP is saying. A lot of "Ninjutsu" being peddled around (especially during the "Ninja craze" of the 80s and 90s) was simply a marketing gimmick.


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## Steve (Dec 15, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Aren't we at the point now where Ninjutsu practitioners don't even call themselves Ninjutsu practitioners or "Ninja" anymore?
> 
> That said, I see nothing wrong with what the OP is saying. A lot of "Ninjutsu" being peddled around (especially during the "Ninja craze" of the 80s and 90s) was simply a marketing gimmick.


In the 80s, I definitely wanted to be a ninja.  I settled for Wing Chun, because that's the school that was nearby.  But if I had found a ninja school, i would definitely have signed up.

To be clear... this kind of ninja.  I loved the show "The Master' with Lee Van Cleef:


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## Hanzou (Dec 15, 2021)

Steve said:


> In the 80s, I definitely wanted to be a ninja.  I settled for Wing Chun, because that's the school that was nearby.  But if I had found a ninja school, i would definitely have signed up.
> 
> To be clear... this kind of ninja.  I loved the show "The Master' with Lee Van Cleef:



Hell yeah. Who didn't want to be a Ninja as a kid? Remember all the Ninja books that came out during that time period? Looking back, those books were just plain crazy.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 15, 2021)

I still want to be a ninja.  

There has to be a way...


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 15, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> things continue to change, and how it is practiced today is not identical to how it was practiced 100 or 300 years ago.  The door needs to be open to that change, and that change does not alter the identity of that system.  It just means that it is adapted based on the current experiences of the practitioners.


Some things change, some never change even over a thousand years.  The weapons change, the armor changes, but take all that away, the only way to gain a skill is to suffer for it.

Because suffering is the literal definition of the "nin" kanji 忍.

"Ninpo" is not much different than "kung fu", linguistically.  Now that I think of it, the Chinese pronunciation of "po" is "fa"/"fat", the same as in quan fa.


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## Sifu Ken of 8 Tigers (Dec 15, 2021)

tim po said:


> Ninjutsu is not a martial art, it is part of a martial tradition. Jutsu indicates skillset, in this case, the skills related to Nin. Nin can be translated many ways, commonly as stealth, invisibility, perseverance, and intention. Taijutsu means 'body skills', and the martial art being referred to as Ninjutsu so often is called Ninpo Taijutsu.  Essentially what Ninjutsu consisted of in history were the skills of espionage, intelligence gathering, escape and evasion, and guerrilla warfare. Psychological tactics and camoflouge were certainly employed for fighting, but the Shinobi most of all wished to avoid open combat.  Their way was to blend in, to escape attention, to be 'invisible' at least in their intent.  Today, Ninjutsu is alive and well and grown immeasurably in degree of complexity. Any and everything one might gain skill in, that may enhance your capability to escape danger, can be considered Ninjutsu, if associated with the study of Ninpo.



You need not spend so much time defending your words as far as I'm concerned. Your view is reasonable and your point was well made. These other guys are being the semantic pedants.


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## punisher73 (Dec 16, 2021)

Steve said:


> In the 80s, I definitely wanted to be a ninja.  I settled for Wing Chun, because that's the school that was nearby.  But if I had found a ninja school, i would definitely have signed up.
> 
> To be clear... this kind of ninja.  I loved the show "The Master' with Lee Van Cleef:


I loved that show as a kid.  I was able to get the series on dvd for a REALLY cheap price and rewatched it.  Brought back a lot of good memories.  Also, wasn't too bad and was very representative of 80's action shows/movies.  But, when compared to newer stuff, very cheesey.


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## punisher73 (Dec 16, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Aren't we at the point now where Ninjutsu practitioners don't even call themselves Ninjutsu practitioners or "Ninja" anymore?
> 
> That said, I see nothing wrong with what the OP is saying. A lot of "Ninjutsu" being peddled around (especially during the "Ninja craze" of the 80s and 90s) was simply a marketing gimmick.


I think it depends on the group.  I have seen some that focus more on the "jujitsu" aspects of their art and downplay it.  Other groups I have seen, are focused on the "ninjutsu" aspect and have started to teach the bushcraft, gray man stuff.  As far as the Bujinkan as a whole, they focus the name of their art as "Budo Taijutsu".


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## Steve (Dec 16, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I loved that show as a kid.  I was able to get the series on dvd for a REALLY cheap price and rewatched it.  Brought back a lot of good memories.  Also, wasn't too bad and was very representative of 80's action shows/movies.  But, when compared to newer stuff, very cheesey.


Some of those shows hold up pretty well.  Some... not so much.


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## Hanzou (Dec 16, 2021)

This ruined Ninjutsu forever;






Great show btw.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 16, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> This ruined Ninjutsu forever;
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's an antidote.  I've seen it work on kids. 

Wait until they're about 16 though.  Let them enjoy their youth a little, before they get the real ninjas.


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## Steve (Dec 16, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> This ruined Ninjutsu forever;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My son wore the headband to school every day for a year when he was in the 2nd grade.  He loved that show.  He is an OG Naruto fan... watched it when it was first on TV.


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## lklawson (Dec 16, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Hell yeah. Who didn't want to be a Ninja as a kid? Remember all the Ninja books that came out during that time period? Looking back, those books were just plain crazy.


I found a link to some.








						Classic NINJA Titles
					

Classic Ninja Titles by Ashida Kim present the first five books published in his award winning and prolific  literary contribution to understanding the history, methods, and motives of the mysterious Ninja, invisible assassins of ancient Japan, who could  penetrate anywhere unseen, kill without...




					dojopress.com
				




<ducking> <running> <hiding>

🤣 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## jks9199 (Dec 16, 2021)

tim po said:


> the term Ninja was coined in the 1970's. the people who developed Ninjutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu were known throught history by many names, Shinobi no Mono (the people of Shinobi) was most common, from what i've read.


Might I ask you name your sources?  The fact is that, outside of Fujita Seiko and (arguably) Maasaki Hatsumi, there's not a lot of reliable written info out there, and there's a whole lot of questionable stuff out there.


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## tim po (Dec 16, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Might I ask you name your sources?  The fact is that, outside of Fujita Seiko and (arguably) Maasaki Hatsumi, there's not a lot of reliable written info out there, and there's a whole lot of questionable stuff out there.


you just named them.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Might I ask you name your sources?  The fact is that, outside of Fujita Seiko and (arguably) Maasaki Hatsumi, there's not a lot of reliable written info out there, and there's a whole lot of questionable stuff out there.



I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> I didn't mean to come across as such a judgy mcjudgypants, i could have done better in expressing this concern. there is so much hype and nonsense surrounding the Shinobi traditions, I had hoped that the community would by now have routed out alot of the mystique by avoiding commonly misunderstood terminology, like 'ninja' and 'ninjutsu'. but, i suppose it still sells memberships.
> 
> to answer your question, traditions kept alive beyond their relevance in modern application are what they are-living, but on life-support. that 'life-support' is the paying consumer. Martial Traditions are what remains of a Martial Art 100 years after it has ceased to exist in dynamic relevance. kept alive for it's wisdom, but not as functional as it was once, because it has stopped growing, adapting, and seeking relevance in a changing world. kinda like me, i suppose.  nothing exists in a static state. all in the universe as we know it is either growing or dying. nothing can remain as is forever, and tradition itself may impede creative expansion, barring a path of relevance into the future. If there is anything I hold dear that I have learned from the philosophy of Ninpo, it is the importance of full creative involvement on the part of the practitioner.


I think this begs the question: relevant to what?


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?


any reason why they wouldn't?


Gerry Seymour said:


> I think this begs the question: relevant to what?


indeed it does, sir.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> any reason why they wouldn't?
> 
> indeed it does, sir.


You brought up relevance, so I was hoping you had an idea what you were referring to.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> You brought up relevance, so I was hoping you had an idea what you were referring to.


i do. but it is my observation, my perception, my experience, and we all have those things for ourselves. if thought has been provoked, think.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> i do. but it is my observation, my perception, my experience, and we all have those things for ourselves. if thought has been provoked, think.


If you refuse to provide context for your post, your post only means what people think it means. Which is kind of not how you want communication to work.

So, rather than dancing around, why not share what you meant, so I can reply to that. Otherwise, I'm just replying to whatever I thought you meant.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> any reason why they wouldn't?



He's been on rather shaky ground in regards to lineage, some of his claims,  and technical ability.


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## dunc (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> He's been on rather shaky ground in regards to lineage, some of his claims,  and technical ability.


The lineages of most of the schools are not questioned by anyone. Frankly just these are enough as they contain a huge curriculum

Sure some lineages are more murky historically, but these account for about 5% of the curriculum and regardless of the limited data points available to validate their history the techniques work well in my experience 

Also worth noting that Hatsumi sensei has been designated a living national treasure (_Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha)_ by the government 
They limit these to a total of 116 living people and in terms of martial artists he's in the same company as the Soke of Bokuden Ryu and Seikichi Uehara or the chef Jiro Ono

He was awarded the level of "sword saint" (or similar translation) from the national association for preserving the methods of kenjutsu


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> He's been on rather shaky ground in regards to lineage, some of his claims,  and technical ability.


i am unaware of that, but there are few more trustworthy sources to my knowledge.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If you refuse to provide context for your post, your post only means what people think it means. Which is kind of not how you want communication to work.
> 
> So, rather than dancing around, why not share what you meant, so I can reply to that. Otherwise, I'm just replying to whatever I thought you meant.


i think people are generally getting tired of my opinions, i guess i come across as one who is overly impressed with his own viewpoint. i wasn't being sarcastic, if my post provokes thoughts of your own i'd like to hear them.  

i can try again later to clarify my original intent.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 17, 2021)

"trust" and "ninja".

"What are two words you should never put together", Alex.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 17, 2021)

dunc said:


> He was awarded the level of "sword saint" (or similar translation) from the national association for preserving the methods of kenjutsu


Kensei?  When did this happen??  Do you have more info???

If I sound perplexed, I am.  I follow such ridiculous things closely, and was not aware.


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## BrendanF (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?



No.


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?


There are, as I understand it, significant differences of opinion on that.  That's why I put the "(arguably)" in there.


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> you just named them.


Which works?  Which translations?  They aren't all equal.  For example, Stephen Hayes sort of took a lot of his early material from Hatsumi, but the filtering process was...  Well, it was what it was.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Which works?  Which translations?  They aren't all equal.  For example, Stephen Hayes sort of took a lot of his early material from Hatsumi, but the filtering process was...  Well, it was what it was.





Gerry Seymour said:


> I think this begs the question: relevant to what?


hmm... i actually dont know how i ended up with both of you in this response, i really kinda suck with computers  but any way

JKS, i had not heard anything about Hatsumi being regarded suspiciously, but being Soke does kinda mean he gets to shape the art however he chooses, far as I know. and c'mon, how much can we really expect to ever know the true history of Japan, especially the involvement of Shinobi-we're talking about the most secretive members of the most secretive people in the history of the world! would not surprise me if there were deviations. to be fair, i never really got into SKH, he was kinda too 'Mr. Rogers' for me.

Gerry, I thought i gave sufficient answer to this question in the quoted response, the relevance being war, essentially. all martial arts were created during a time when they were needed, to fight for everything people fought for.  as civilians in a time so removed from when any of these things happened, do we do ourselves harm or favor by clinging to traditions? if we favor traditions and wish to keep them relevant, how best to do that, with an art like this? focusing on Ninjutsu, without the Ninpo, will only make clever criminals. 

 the more i think about it, the less i agree with myself, using Ninjutsu as the umbrella term for all of the traditions that still live from this shrouded past is well and good. i always sought to avoid it, if pressed, i was satisfied when they told me they never heard of Ninpo Taijutsu! What always impressed me most was the core philosophy, as i was able to understand it based on the sources and people available, including Hatsumi Soke.e recently writings of Fujita Seiko have been translated too.
I have had people tell me they think Taijutsu is weak. such and such is better, of course. but taijutsu IS weak, without Ninpo, and yeah, a little bit of ninjutsu too.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> i think people are generally getting tired of my opinions, i guess i come across as one who is overly impressed with his own viewpoint. i wasn't being sarcastic, if my post provokes thoughts of your own i'd like to hear them.
> 
> i can try again later to clarify my original intent.


I was trying to have thoughts about your post without assumptions. I guess I’ll just keep my assumptions, given no other option.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> I was trying to have thoughts about your post without assumptions. I guess I’ll just keep my assumptions, given no other option.


no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> Gerry, I thought i gave sufficient answer to this question in the quoted response, the relevance being war, essentially. all martial arts were created during a time when they were needed, to fight for everything people fought for.  as civilians in a time so removed from when any of these things happened, do we do ourselves harm or favor by clinging to traditions? if we favor traditions and wish to keep them relevant, how best to do that, with an art like this? focusing on Ninjutsu, without the Ninpo, will only make clever criminals.


If we use war as a measure of relevance, I doubt anything we commonly call “Martial Arts” will pass that test.


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## BrendanF (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.



You should understand that this is the nature of the forum - it isn't you.  If you can tolerate the dynamic people are happy to hear your perspective.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.


Seriously, don’t worry about it and you are welcome here.  People can ride you hard sometimes, and sometimes it just depends on the day.  There is a lot of interaction here, most of it friendly and good natured.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> No.



Care to elaborate? This is generally my experience regarding Hatsumi as well, but I'd be interested in hearing your PoV.



jks9199 said:


> There are, as I understand it, significant differences of opinion on that.  That's why I put the "(arguably)" in there.



Indeed. I'm seeing that difference of opinion in this very thread.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> JKS, i had not heard anything about Hatsumi being regarded suspiciously, but being Soke does kinda mean he gets to shape the art however he chooses, far as I know. and c'mon, how much can we really expect to ever know the true history of Japan, especially the involvement of Shinobi-we're talking about the most secretive members of the most secretive people in the history of the world! would not surprise me if there were deviations. to be fair, i never really got into SKH, he was kinda too 'Mr. Rogers' for me.
> 
> the more i think about it, the less i agree with myself, using Ninjutsu as the umbrella term for all of the traditions that still live from this shrouded past is well and good. i always sought to avoid it, if pressed, i was satisfied when they told me they never heard of Ninpo Taijutsu! What always impressed me most was the core philosophy, as i was able to understand it based on the sources and people available, including Hatsumi Soke.e recently writings of Fujita Seiko have been translated too.
> I have had people tell me they think Taijutsu is weak. such and such is better, of course. but taijutsu IS weak, without Ninpo, and yeah, a little bit of ninjutsu too.



My issue with Hatsumi is stuff like this;






One of the beautiful things about ground fighting/newaza is that due to its nature, it's rather easy to discern what is nonsense and what actually would work in a given situation. 

What Hatsumi is doing here is utter, pure nonsense. I could toss a BJJ white belt in there with a few months experience  and Hatsumi would get subbed over and over again.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Dec 17, 2021)

tim po said:


> no matter what i say i am responded to with assumptions, and i blame my lack of googlejutsu prowess. it is ok to share your thoughts, or not. i don't think i am cut out for internet forums. peace be to all.


I've enjoyed reading your posts and the debates that have come from it, for what it's worth. 

There are also some on here who have researched a lot and I have great faith in what they post..others not so much. Also some are more blunt while others aren't. It's up to you how to interact with anyone, but if you can get through the difference of opinions and personalities, you can learn (and teach) a lot.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Gerry Seymour said:


> If we use war as a measure of relevance, I doubt anything we commonly call “Martial Arts” will pass that test.


war _was_ the relevance. war is still a thing, and it could be said that the martial arts being cultivated by the world's special forces are the cutting edge of modern martial arts development in a way,  but our culture is very competitive and sports are an enormous influence on so many people. for many arts, there are certainly exceptions, that relevance has translated into sport and exhibition, in the name of tradition and the preservation of heritage for some more than others. in some cases, there are ways they can fall short of staying relevant by clinging to rigid kata. it cannot for work for Ninpo to  become sport, though it has been made a spectactle by our culture no doubt, so it seems to me that the natural evolution has to align with cultural goals of a different nature to stay relevant - and (hopefully) moral in purpose.

i had to practice my googlejutsu, so i googled 'gray man'. i thought it was just about my beard, but, yeah, that's kinda what i feel the relevance of Ninpo in our modern age is closer to, for me (not for people still involved in war) and the approach to technique in Ninpo Taijutsu lends itself well to a martial-minded type who strives to cultivate such a persona. the hidden intention, stealth. the skills spoken of, escape and evasion, urban camoflouge, awareness, definetly modern Ninjutsu in it's own way. though i actually feel silly now that i know its a trending thing..


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> My issue with Hatsumi is stuff like this;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


dude did he grab his nuts? damn.

yeah...there is some wtf there for sure. can't hear what he is saying, so never know what he is trying to illustrate for sure, but i suspect in a few of those instances he is using skin-grabbing(shako ken?) which is difficult to see but is very painful. i really don't even want to think about what it would feel like from Soke! 

his techniques are always as vague as his answers. i've never been his uke but i'll bet you'd have to ask one to know why he is a terrifying human being.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I've enjoyed reading your posts and the debates that have come from it, for what it's worth.
> 
> There are also some on here who have researched a lot and I have great faith in what they post..others not so much. Also some are more blunt while others aren't. It's up to you how to interact with anyone, but if you can get through the difference of opinions and personalities, you can learn (and teach) a lot.


thank you.  i've been enjoying reading the ones i haven't posted in.


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## tim po (Dec 17, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Seriously, don’t worry about it and you are welcome here.  People can ride you hard sometimes, and sometimes it just depends on the day.  There is a lot of interaction here, most of it friendly and good natured.


Thanks- it's like a whole new realm of martial arts training.


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## BrendanF (Dec 17, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Care to elaborate? This is generally my experience regarding Hatsumi as well, but I'd be interested in hearing your PoV.



I'm no expert on the historicity of ninja/ninjutsu - I'm sure Chris would know far more about that stuff.  But in my experience with koryu practitioners and teachers in Japan, Mr Hatsumi and the 'x-kan' organisations are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock; a tourist exploitation machine based on some pretty cringy, childish ideas.  Not seen as either legitimate martial arts, or historical traditions.  

Of course this does not sit well with the legions of foreigners who have time and emotion invested in these organisations.  They often cite the Emperor giving Mr Hatsumi an award as 'proof' of his good standing (I understand he received an award 'for contributions to tourism' from the Emperor - I don't think he was designated a living cultural asset and would be keen to see evidence to support that)

It is pretty apparent that much of the 'ninja' stuff was created by Mr Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu, and does not have any history prior to that.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I'm no expert on the historicity of ninja/ninjutsu - I'm sure Chris would know far more about that stuff.  But in my experience with koryu practitioners and teachers in Japan, Mr Hatsumi and the 'x-kan' organisations are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock; a tourist exploitation machine based on some pretty cringy, childish ideas.  Not seen as either legitimate martial arts, or historical traditions.
> 
> Of course this does not sit well with the legions of foreigners who have time and emotion invested in these organisations.  They often cite the Emperor giving Mr Hatsumi an award as 'proof' of his good standing (I understand he received an award 'for contributions to tourism' from the Emperor - I don't think he was designated a living cultural asset and would be keen to see evidence to support that)
> 
> It is pretty apparent that much of the 'ninja' stuff was created by Mr Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu, and does not have any history prior to that.



Yeah, this is more in line with the impressions I've come across from koryu practitioners and scholars.


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## jks9199 (Dec 17, 2021)

Regarding Hatsumi -- from various things I've read, some question not so much him, but the origins of some of the material he received from Takamatsu.  I fully confess that I'm not versed enough in the issues to have a good opinion; some of the material from Takamatsu is well documented in many areas.  Some of it -- not so much.  Doesn't mean it's not valid or true, simply that some of the groups didn't leave a record as clearly as others.


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## Hanzou (Dec 17, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Regarding Hatsumi -- from various things I've read, some question not so much him, but the origins of some of the material he received from Takamatsu.  I fully confess that I'm not versed enough in the issues to have a good opinion; some of the material from Takamatsu is well documented in many areas.  Some of it -- not so much.  Doesn't mean it's not valid or true, simply that some of the groups didn't leave a record as clearly as others.



The stuff he demonstrated in that video I posted definitely isn't valid.


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 18, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> There are, as I understand it, significant differences of opinion on that.  That's why I put the "(arguably)" in there.


Just like a ninja too, throw everyone off the real scent.  Tell enough lies, nobody can recognize the truth anymore.

It's an effective tactic.


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## BrendanF (Dec 18, 2021)

jks9199 said:


> Regarding Hatsumi -- from various things I've read, some question not so much him, but the origins of some of the material he received from Takamatsu.  I fully confess that I'm not versed enough in the issues to have a good opinion; some of the material from Takamatsu is well documented in many areas.  Some of it -- not so much.  Doesn't mean it's not valid or true, simply that some of the groups didn't leave a record as clearly as others.



Exactly.  Takamatsu was legitimately a senior figure in two koryu that were/are traditionally taught together, due to a challenge between the two headmasters centuries ago - Kukishin ryu and Takagi ryu.  He apparently also received paperwork for a couple of other arts like Shinden Fudo ryu that were independently documented. 

At some point Takamatsu wrote to the head of the Kuki family, who are hereditary custodians of a Shinto shrine and the orthodox Kukishin ryu, for permission to use their name in creating a new 'koryu karate' system.  I don't think he ended up doing that.  He was very old and apparently suffering mentally when he taught Hatsumi - he wrote lineages for his new 'ninja' ryuha that included comic book characters and the like.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

Right. Lots to cover here... this might be a really long one, or I might split it up... let's see how we go.

Firstly, hi, Tim. Good to meet you. Whilst I get your enthusiasm and desire to "clear up" what you see as an issue, there's quite a lot that, perhaps, you aren't aware of, or that you aren't taking into account... let's see what we have.



tim po said:


> Ninjutsu is not a martial art, it is part of a martial tradition.



Yeah, I'm gonna break these up... 

This opening statement is both true, and not true. It depends on the context that is being discussed, and, importantly, the system(s) being discussed... as well as historical, social, and cultural aspects. But we'll get to that.



tim po said:


> Jutsu indicates skillset, in this case, the skills related to Nin.



Sure... that's one interpretation. A set of technical methods is another... practical techniques is another... as far as "skills related to Nin", well, not really. It's more about "skills (technical methods, practical techniques) applied to the context of nin (忍)"... which is kinda what you get to next, so not too far off. Of course, this is only one contextual application of the term... but, again, we'll get there.



tim po said:


> Nin can be translated many ways, commonly as stealth, invisibility, perseverance, and intention.



The translation of "invisibility" isn't as accurate... in simple terms, it's about forbearance, patience, perseverance... with a subtext of concealed action, stealth. Invisibility would more likely be fukashi (不可視 pretty literally "unable to be seen")... I get the connection, and Draegers' work in the 60's "Ninjitsu: The Art of Invisibility" perhaps has a bit of the blame there, but the "translation" isn't correct. As far as "intention"... just, no.



tim po said:


> Taijutsu means 'body skills', and the martial art being referred to as Ninjutsu so often is called Ninpo Taijutsu.



Within the Genbukan (and Bujinkan... sort of. The more common term there is "Budo Taijutsu", although Ninpo Taijutsu is sometimes applied by some teachers, or in some contexts)... the term being taken from one of the three primary areas taught in Togakure Ryu... with one of the others being ninjutsu specifically... but, again, we'll get there.



tim po said:


> Essentially what Ninjutsu consisted of in history were the skills of espionage, intelligence gathering, escape and evasion,



Largely, yep.



tim po said:


> and guerrilla warfare.



And... nope. While there were certain regional areas where the bushi of the area were known for such approaches, and those areas have a connection in a way with historic legends about "ninja", it's not really the same thing.



tim po said:


> Psychological tactics and camoflouge were certainly employed for fighting, but the Shinobi most of all wished to avoid open combat.  Their way was to blend in, to escape attention, to be 'invisible' at least in their intent.



Hmm... a major issue here seems to be the concept that a "ninja" was a thing/person in and of themselves... that's simply not the case. In a real way, "ninja" (shinobi no mono, rappa, kusa, suppa, any of myriad other terms) was a job, not a person... and, more often than not, simply referred to a samurai engaging in any of the above actions (espionage, scouting, sabotage).



tim po said:


> Today, Ninjutsu is alive and well and grown immeasurably in degree of complexity.



Er... huh?



tim po said:


> Any and everything one might gain skill in, that may enhance your capability to escape danger, can be considered Ninjutsu, if associated with the study of Ninpo.



Well, no.  That's the thing about studying a cultural approach to a topic or area... if what you does doesn't fit that cultural context, then it isn't the thing you are trying to do. I get the whole "make it work for today" idea, but that's then creating something different (which may be based in the first set of concepts, but isn't really the same thing at all).



tim po said:


> no disrespect intended. I just wonder why the category devoted to the martial arts of the Shinobi is mislabeled so.



Okay, then.

It's not. You're missing two thirds of the meaning of the term.

Did that help?

Okay, let's explore a bit (by the way, this is all in the stickies on this forum, so maybe a bit of reading there would help...).

In a real way, there are three ways to look at the usage/application of the term "ninjutsu". These are as a historical methodology, as a historical cultural phenomenon, and as a modern interpretation of the concept. So, let's look at each of these.

The first is the historical methodology, which is what you have been trying to describe here. It's most commonly found as a subset of military strategies and skills, based around information gathering, scouting, reconnaissance, sabotage, and so on. This was rarely, if ever, a stand-alone system, but was part of a larger set of education of (most commonly) upper level warriors, as part of a total military education. As a result, there are ninjutsu (and related) sections of the curriculums of schools such as Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, Tatsumi Ryu (where they refer to the concept as "monomi"), Araki Ryu, Yagyu Shinkage Ryu, Kukishin Ryu/Kukamishin Ryu, and so on. Very occasionally, there may be a specialised curriculum/education based around this area, separated from a larger syllabus (and therefore intended for only some persons within a military faction/domain), such as Kishu Ryu, today reconstructed (without real credibility) as Natori Ryu, and a handful of others.

The second is a historical cultural phenomenon. In Japan, this refers largely to the Edo Period, where Japan entered a period of extended peace, with many legends being developed and embellished as part of social entertainment. Through these stories, especially regarding the exploits of the powerful ruling factions (Oda Nobunaga, Tokugawa Ieyasu etc), many of the popular images we have today (thieves, assassins, magicians) were used to describe some of the characters surrounding these men and events. The Oda Nobunaga attacks on the central Honshu regions of Iga and Koga (present-day Mie and Shiga prefectures) to quell some of the political uprisings there, coupled with the more unusual combative tactics employed by the religious/military (but centrally resistant) persons in the Ikko-Ikki campaigns would give rise to the "guerrilla warfare" legends of the "ninja", for example... the death of Takeda Shingen (likely from a form of stomach cancer) has been re-spun as an assassination by a dwarf "ninja" hiding in the bottom of a toilet, and stabbing with a short spear... Additionally, the presence of various "ninja" characters in popular entertainment (kabuki in particular) helped drive this mystique.

Lastly is the modern application, dominantly headed by the arts also referred to as the Takamatsuden (or, simply, "transmissions from Takamatsu", Hatsumi's teacher). As will be discussed, these arts are certainly far from free of controversy (we'll deal with them in detail as we go), but, to give some context, the first art that Hatsumi was given headmastership of was Togakure Ryu (a bit under two years after starting studying with Takamatsu), an art ostensibly teaching (and describing itself as) "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu". As a result, it was under this banner name that Hatsumi began presenting himself to the world, so the name kinda stuck. He would also use it as the primary title in most public engagements and publicity (tv appearances, acting roles, publications, and so on)... and the Bujinkan was originally the name only of the dojo (physical building itself... that's what the "Kan" suffix refers to), with the art being taught there being "Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu", regardless of the actual origin of the specific methods being taught.

This is then coupled with the historical claims of a number of the other arts taught, specifically Gyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu (but then extending to the listed Gikan Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu, as they claim a basis stemming from Gyokko Ryu themselves, and Kumogakure Ryu, which is also listed as a "ninjutsu" school), which claim to have been developed in the aforementioned Iga region (present-day Mie Prefecture) popularly associate with the mythical and legendary "ninja". As a result, the Bujinkan makes claim that there are "ninjutsu" traditions (Togakure Ryu, Kumogakure Ryu), as well as traditions deriving from the Iga region, and therefore "ninja-related" (Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Gikan Ryu, Gyokushin Ryu)... with the remaining arts being more "samurai" in their historical application (Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Shinden Fudo Ryu, and Kukishin Ryu... although that one also had a historical ninjutsu component to it). So, rather than list the various arts, and before the term "Budo Taijutsu" was coined, it became a common short-hand to refer to the Takamatsu traditions as "Ninjutsu"... mainly as a simple, short way to refer to what is taught in the more expansive dojo.

So, as you can see, it's not "mis-labelled"... you're just only choosing to use one application of the term.



tim po said:


> and to answer your question, no, i am not involved with espionage, intelligence gathering, spycraft, or really much of anything that could be defined as Ninjutsu.



However, you describe yourself as a practitioner of Ninpo Taijutsu... and, surely, you get that that's what you were being asked if you studied, yeah? So, let me probe a little further... how long have you studied (I'm assuming Bujinkan, from your comments about Hatsumi)?



BrendanF said:


> Don't see any mention of 'martial' there myself.. if so inclined I'd probably take more issue with the phrase 'modern organisations that teach the original ninjutsu arts'



Ha, yeah, I can see that (and agree in the main). Realistically, it's because, back in the day, there was a large component of the forum that practiced what would later be referred to as "Modern Ninjitsu" (sometimes as "neo-ninjutsu")... largely Western inventions based on bad karate, worse judo, terrible weapons (a lot of them Chinese and Okinawan), and a hell of a lot of fantasy, that would continually challenge the Japanese based organisations and members with the claim that their arts were just as valid expressions... eventually, they were split off to their own forum, so the description of this one was re-worded to reflect that separation... the other forum died pretty quickly, though, as most members kept finding themselves banned for a range of infractions... 

Continued in the next post...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

tim po said:


> I didn't mean to come across as such a judgy mcjudgypants, i could have done better in expressing this concern. there is so much hype and nonsense surrounding the Shinobi traditions, I had hoped that the community would by now have routed out alot of the mystique by avoiding commonly misunderstood terminology, like 'ninja' and 'ninjutsu'. but, i suppose it still sells memberships.



To be honest, I don't think there's much "hype" anymore... in the 80's, and even into the very early 90's? Sure. But these days, I don't think so... additionally, most practitioners don't use any terms like "ninja", and the few who use terms like "ninjutsu" usually do it for brand recognition, for want of a better term. Whether that's a good idea is another discussion, of course... 



tim po said:


> to answer your question, traditions kept alive beyond their relevance in modern application are what they are-living, but on life-support. that 'life-support' is the paying consumer.



Word to the wise here... I'd refrain from commenting on koryu, application, and the state of such arts in todays world. I really don't have time to cover it all here, but... that comment smacks of a complete lack of education on the subject.



tim po said:


> Martial Traditions are what remains of a Martial Art 100 years after it has ceased to exist in dynamic relevance. kept alive for it's wisdom, but not as functional as it was once, because it has stopped growing, adapting, and seeking relevance in a changing world.



Yeah... you have no idea what you're talking about, and don't have the context or framework to understand it. That's not an attack, more an observation, to be clear... and you're far from alone in being in that position.



tim po said:


> kinda like me, i suppose.  nothing exists in a static state. all in the universe as we know it is either growing or dying. nothing can remain as is forever, and tradition itself may impede creative expansion, barring a path of relevance into the future. If there is anything I hold dear that I have learned from the philosophy of Ninpo, it is the importance of full creative involvement on the part of the practitioner.



This is what I'm getting at... Bujinkan practitioners are often very happy to parrot Hatsumi's comments on "classical martial arts", where he bemoans that they are "stuck, unchanging", but his art is "a living art"... then you get the "we train for the modern world" idea (and, honestly, no, most don't, as there isn't much understanding present in the vast majority that I've seen, from the very top down), all the while basing their presumed credibility on the claimed histories and ages of the arts... you really can't have it both ways. Either you're studying a classical art, in which case, study it in it's classical context, or you're doing a modern art (which may be derived from, or based on, some classical or traditional material... and, really, is a fair enough description of the Bujinkan), dealing with modern situations and contexts... or, recognise what they are (individually), and teach them as such (individually)... the modern is not the classical, and the classical is not modern... both have their place, and, believe it or not, both have their application in the modern world (which is not the same as saying they are equally suited to modern violence, it must be stated), but deriding classical arts, then trying to claim to be one, is quite... schizophrenic? It's the classic "well, I never wanted to be in your club in the first place" after you get rejected...



BrendanF said:


> What's the difference between 'shinobi' and 'ninja'?



Nothing, really... different preferred terms in different ages. "Ninja" is pretty much a Meiji term.



tim po said:


> the term Ninja was coined in the 1970's.



Nope. About a hundred years too late, there... perhaps a bit longer, actually.



tim po said:


> the people who developed Ninjutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu were known throught history by many names, Shinobi no Mono (the people of Shinobi) was most common, from what i've read.



Shinobi no Mono does not mean "the people of Shinobi", unless you have a weird approach to grammar... it's like translating "thief" as "people of stealing"... next, I'd be pretty careful the claims I made about "the people who developed Ninjutsu and Ninpo Taijutsu" as any kind of historical individuals... ninjutsu, being the skills of espionage and information gathering, developed as a pretty natural application of military strategic approaches... it would be bizarre if only one person developed it as a concept (yeah, I know the whole En no Gyoja story, and others... they are not really anything close to it, for the record... En no Gyoja was a priest who brought a form of Buddhism, which was combined with native Shinto to develop studies such as Shugendo, who has been co-opted into some of the "ninja" mythos). It has existed in some form since two opposing forces tried to get some kind of advantage by figuring out some of their enemies strengths and weaknesses before a battle. It could be argued that it was driven into a state of refinement by the introduction of the 5 Chinese Classics, most notably Son Shi (Sun Tzu), and the 13th Chapter dealing with spies, but it was already in development. What made it Japanese (and, therefore, ninjutsu) was the application of the Japanese cultural concepts (religious teachings and ideas, Shinto, Taoist, Buddhist), and so on.

Next, the term "Ninpo Taijutsu" really doesn't seem to have existed before Takamatsu... well, I suppose he's had a number of names over his lifetime (Jutaro, Chosui, Toshitsugu...), so, yeah? But, if you're referring to historical persons (not Takamatsu), then, you're gonna need to back your work up... 



tim po said:


> Koryu arts are steeped in tradition, but of any arts have remained relevant right up until the present, imo. when most martial arts began to teach adaptations for sport and exhobition, the Shinobi arts went back underground.



Er... what?

Let's break this down... Koryu arts ARE traditions. They aren't steeped in them, they are them. Then there are other traditions associated within the school, but the school itself is a tradition. The rest doesn't make much sense, but if I was to parse it, it seems you meant "... but IF any arts have remained relevant right up until the present, imo, when most martial arts began to teach adaptations for sport and exhibition, (it's) the Shinobi arts (who) went back underground." Assuming that's correct, then there's a bit to cover.

When Japan came out of the Pax Tokugawa, and into the Meiji Restoration, there was a lot of upheaval in the country, with some (quite understandable) resentment towards the samurai who had been, in many ways, the oppressors for some 900 years. However, many of these former samurai were now set up as business and political leaders, and they didn't necessarily want their older traditions to just stop... so there was a concerted effort in a number of areas to repackage some of the older arts in a way that could be preserve their essential spirits, while limiting the association with the old regime. This lead to the development of what we now call Kendo, Judo, and later, Aikido, Iaido, and so on. Even Sumo was largely re-structured and re-worked to provide a wider appeal. However, to say that that was the teachers "begin(ning) to teach adaptations for sport and exhibition" is grossly inaccurate. Kano's Judo, for example, was more related to being adapted to be integrated into the education system... the "competition" was meant to be a minor aspect, and part of Kano's original vision was to have the Kodokan be the centre for all Japanese martial arts... he wanted all senior members to also be well versed in the older classical arts (he brought in Shimizu Takauji of Shinto Muso Ryu, and four shihan from Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu to teach staff and sword arts to the senior students, as he felt Judo by itself was only a part of the equation). Most of the modern arts we have today are more a reflection of post WWII than the end of the samurai rule, to be honest.

As far as "the Shinobi arts went back underground", well, the first thing is to realise that they never were in the first place... while they wouldn't be exactly advertise, they were just part of the overall military education... there weren't really "ninja traditions" to go underground in any real way.



tim po said:


> Takamatsu Soke entered WWII as a spy, and I'll bet he was a damn good one.



HA!!! 

No. He didn't. There are rumours that he acted as a kind of spy in China in the early 1900's (around 1910-1920)... by the time WWII rolled around, he was about 60 years old... for a more realistic idea there, Fujita Seiko, claimed 14th (and last) head of the Wada-ha Koga Ryu, acted as a special guest instructor at the Nakago academy for officers, where skills such as spycraft were taught... but he was there as a karate instructor (for the record, they also had guest instructors from the Kodokan, from Aikido, various weapon arts, especially Toyama Ryu, a school developed at another military academy in the early 20th Century), so, no, the Japanese army were not being taught to be "ninja" in WWII, nor was anyone employed as one outside of regular spy craft that all armies were engaging in.



tim po said:


> Ninpo Taijutsu still has no sport application, competitive sport itself is an adaptation to modern relevance, but a deviation from tradition,



Er... what? No. Many classical traditions had a form of competitive practice, gekken/gekiken competitions (the precursor to modern Kendo) were held semi-regularly (Musashi's father engaged the Yoshioka school in one such competition in front of the Emperor in the late 16th Century, winning two out of the three bouts, and being named the "Greatest Warrior Under Heaven" [loose translation]), Judo's competition approach grew directly out of the competitive practice methods Kano was exposed to and enjoyed in both his Kito Ryu and Tenjin Shin'yo Ryu studies... that's not even getting into the rich history of sumo, and various jacketed and seated wrestling sports that the samurai (and others) engaged in.



tim po said:


> martial arts were for war not competition,



This is a common, but deeply misunderstood and misapplied statement. Bluntly, if you think martial arts training is for use in war, you have very little idea of war, the necessary elements and training, the requirements, or martial training. I'll put it this way... a new recruit to the army is taken through boot camp, which typically lasts for 8-10 weeks... after which, he's able to be deployed. How long do you think it would take to have an army ready if you had to wait until they'd completed a 10-15 year study of a complete martial tradition? More to the point, why would you bother that kind of investment when soldiers were being sent with only a relatively small chance of survival? It just doesn't make sense... 

Where the idea of these arts being for "war" is more about learning military strategy and leadership, as well as approaches to tactical thinking, and so on, which would be taught largely though the medium of combative techniques... but, even there, the actual techniques weren't necessarily directly applicable to the war of the day... many arts focused on the sword, but that's not a battlefield weapon... it is, however, a great teaching tool to focus on tactical methods and concepts... and that's only dealing with the actual "military" arts... many systems simply aren't military ones. Shinto Muso Ryu (and it's associated fuzoku ryu-ha), really is a policing art... others are focused on assassination (and they aren't the ninjutsu ones, either! Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu, I'm looking at you...), or on duelling functionality, or on deep study of spiritual or philosophical concepts, or political ideologies, and so on.

Martial arts are a lot more than most people think or are aware of... 



tim po said:


> although challenges and tournaments did exist, they were not the focus.



They were in some cases. To be honest, at this point, you're not even aware of how much you're not aware of.



tim po said:


> agree, Ninpo is probably the most flexible of any martial philosophy to my knowledge.



But how far does your knowledge extend? Is it wide enough for that to be meaningful in any way? I mean... I'm pretty sure the JKD guys might take you up on that comment... 



tim po said:


> i do not think what i wrote should be interpretted to imply that Ninpo is a dead art, quite the opposite.  it is because of the evolving and adapting element that i have embraced it as the core of my training on a physical and philosophical level as it is complimentary to all of the many other things i seek knowledge of in the name of survival, like the themes you mentioned.



And that's cool, but that's your take on things... and it shouldn't preclude similar things being present in other arts, even if you're unaware of them, or are unable to recognise them.



tim po said:


> I would take down my original post if i could, i did not clearly express what i was getting at and i see no need now to make the point at all. there are a lot of great conversations on here about these arts, i've scarcely commented because i have so little to add that has not been covered by people far more knowledgeable than me.
> Ninpo Ik Kan,
> tim



I don't know that taking down the original post is the best idea... look, I know things don't always come out the way we intend, but it can provoke comments from, as you state, people far more knowledgable than yourself... which can help others far less knowledgable to learn more. So, even if you may be a bit embarrassed by it, don't be... it can help in ways you may not at first see.

More to come!


----------



## Hanzou (Dec 18, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> More to come!


----------



## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Aren't we at the point now where Ninjutsu practitioners don't even call themselves Ninjutsu practitioners or "Ninja" anymore?



Depends on the practitioner, but, yeah. The Bujinkan started out as the Bujinkan Dojo, teaching Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu, later being the Bujinkan Dojo International, then Bujinkan Dojo Ninpo Taijutsu (late 80's/early 90's), before finally settling on Bujinkan Dojo Budo Taijutsu in the early/mid 90's. The Jinenkan prefer the term "Jissen Kobudo" for their approach ("real fighting old martial arts")... the Genbukan, however, divide their syllabus into the Ninpo Taijutsu syllabus, the Kokusai Jujutsu Renmei syllabus, the Koryu Karate syllabus, and so on... so, they still maintain the "Ninpo"/"Ninjutsu" terminology more than the others. In fact, classes start with the recitation of the "Ninniku Seishin", a kinda poem that is supposed to encapsulate the core philosophical ideals of "Ninpo" practice.



Hanzou said:


> That said, I see nothing wrong with what the OP is saying. A lot of "Ninjutsu" being peddled around (especially during the "Ninja craze" of the 80s and 90s) was simply a marketing gimmick.



A marketing hook, sure... gimmick? Not really... that would imply that it wasn't a major part of the offering (at least in terms of the image presented). But we're maybe getting a bit semantic there...



Oily Dragon said:


> Some things change, some never change even over a thousand years.  The weapons change, the armor changes, but take all that away, the only way to gain a skill is to suffer for it.



Sure... but that's a delicate line to try to walk... how much change can be undertaken before it is no longer what it was? And how little being changed means that the art stifles and dies? Realistically, though, the biggest thing that changes is the cultural context and environment... which makes these arts (especially koryu) a very interesting way to bridge the gap between the modern and classical cultures and realities... 



Oily Dragon said:


> Because suffering is the literal definition of the "nin" kanji 忍.



Er... huh? No, I wouldn't ever describe that as a literal translation of shinobu... it can have the implication of "to bear, or to suffer a burden", but not suffering itself... that would be kurushimu (苦しむ), to conjugate it.



Oily Dragon said:


> "Ninpo" is not much different than "kung fu", linguistically.  Now that I think of it, the Chinese pronunciation of "po" is "fa"/"fat", the same as in quan fa.



Uh... yeah, it's pretty different... and, yeah, the "ho" character (法) is the same as in quan fa... the Japanese pronunciation there would be "kenpo" (fist methods - 拳法). Ninpo is a different concept/idea, and quite removed from either kenpo or kung fu (which is an idea based around the benefits and rewards of hard work and effort)... 



punisher73 said:


> I think it depends on the group.  I have seen some that focus more on the "jujitsu" aspects of their art and downplay it.  Other groups I have seen, are focused on the "ninjutsu" aspect and have started to teach the bushcraft, gray man stuff.  As far as the Bujinkan as a whole, they focus the name of their art as "Budo Taijutsu".



Yeah, more and more.



jks9199 said:


> Might I ask you name your sources?  The fact is that, outside of Fujita Seiko and (arguably) Maasaki Hatsumi, there's not a lot of reliable written info out there, and there's a whole lot of questionable stuff out there.



The problem is that it was a rather minor aspect of overarching military strategies and methodologies... it wasn't important enough to note much about it in many cases. That said, there are a number of texts from a wide array of schools that give some ideas as to how the individual schools approached the idea of espionage... but, most of it is only really of value within the context of the particular schools themselves.

Besides Fujita and Hatsumi (and, really, Fujita's major credibility comes from his reputation as a martial scholar than his claim of being the head of a "ninjutsu" line, something that Hatsumi doesn't share... he has a huge collection of ancient scrolls and texts, but more as a collector than a scholar), there are the three classic texts, being the Bansenshukai, Ninpiden (Shinobi-no Den), and Shoninki... then there's a range of texts by Ito Gingetsu... the problem being that much of these are more propaganda/fantasy writings, rather than historical military texts... they give some insight into the way such legendary figures (who didn't really exist in that sense) were seen at the times of writing, but little more than that.



Hanzou said:


> I'm curious, do scholars of classical Japanese martial arts still consider Maasaki Hatsumi a legitimate source of Ninjutsu?



Er....................................... no. Or of martial arts, in the main... 



tim po said:


> any reason why they wouldn't?



Besides the credibility issues of the schools that Hatsumi claims? There's his disdain of classical arts and the way they're transmitted, preferring his own (internal) beliefs over historical validity and veracity, there's the failure to provide any real evidence of his arts existing historically, his leaning into the imagery above and beyond factually based information, and, well, his own very eccentric personality traits...  

Look, Hatsumi is very charismatic, a trait that shouldn't ever be overlooked or underestimated... his sense of distance and balance is incredibly good, and he is a natural showman... but none of that lends itself to a credible scholarly source. It does, however, lend itself to attracting lots of students, followers, and fans... as well as detractors. In Japan, though, he's largely seen by most of the (particularly koryu) community as that kinda weird uncle/grandpa who says and does things that are a bit out of the ordinary, but he's tolerated as he's not really hurting anyone, and people seem happy... 



tim po said:


> indeed it does, sir.



See above...

Okay, next!


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## tim po (Dec 18, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I'm no expert on the historicity of ninja/ninjutsu - I'm sure Chris would know far more about that stuff.  But in my experience with koryu practitioners and teachers in Japan, Mr Hatsumi and the 'x-kan' organisations are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock; a tourist exploitation machine based on some pretty cringy, childish ideas.  Not seen as either legitimate martial arts, or historical traditions.
> 
> Of course this does not sit well with the legions of foreigners who have time and emotion invested in these organisations.  They often cite the Emperor giving Mr Hatsumi an award as 'proof' of his good standing (I understand he received an award 'for contributions to tourism' from the Emperor - I don't think he was designated a living cultural asset and would be keen to see evidence to support that)
> 
> It is pretty apparent that much of the 'ninja' stuff was created by Mr Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu, and does not have any history prior to that.





Chris Parker said:


> To be honest, I don't think there's much "hype" anymore... in the 80's, and even into the very early 90's? Sure. But these days, I don't think so... additionally, most practitioners don't use any terms like "ninja", and the few who use terms like "ninjutsu" usually do it for brand recognition, for want of a better term. Whether that's a good idea is another discussion, of course...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


woah.  anybody ever asks me what a ninja is again i'm just gonna say 'a what?' and tell them to ask you.

Thank you, for taking so much time to actually address each line of my rambling in turn, and i'm still sorry you had to, but this is the most information on the history of Japanese martial arts I have ever read in one place. 

there really is no reason i should expect that anything i have ever learned is true. for awhile i did try pretty hard to get the story straight, but 30 years ago, there was no internet and sources were few and mostly horseshit, and now it seems that the few i always thought were legit, also full of fabrications.  by then i didn't have any crazy ideas about becoming a ninja assassin, but found a core of technique that allowed me to learn so much more over the years.

i know you want to know about my training, there really isn't much to point to there. i was never a student of the Bujinkan. I went to seminars at Bujinkan schools and to Tai Kai events (and had no right to be there but no one asked) and i read everything i could find and watched all the damn videos...i had a loose affiliation of freaks i trained(really very hard) with(some of them went on to high ranking within the Bujinkan) but i won't give names.  for the next 15 years i traveled and trained with dozens of people, some masters of an art, most just enthusiasts of the path, but what i had (thought i ) learned from the philosophies put forth (as Ninpo) became to me the key to understanding everything else I observed  (well, that and Quigong).  been a hermit about 12 years now, and just recently(been injured) got to thinking i would get involved again, but i haven't even used the internet much. don't trust it, everyone lies. and i have quickly come to realize that my isolated path, for whatever practicality it has served me, has little to offer here.


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## Hanzou (Dec 18, 2021)

tim po said:


> Thank you, for taking so much time to actually address each line of my rambling in turn, and i'm still sorry you had to, but this is the most information on the history of Japanese martial arts I have ever read in one place.


Don't be sorry. He* loves *typing a book's worth of information in a post.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

dunc said:


> The lineages of most of the schools are not questioned by anyone. Frankly just these are enough as they contain a huge curriculum



Well, you'd really need to be a lot more specific, there, Dunc... which specific lineages are you referring to? Cause... yeah, there's a lot of them that are pretty questioned... let's break them down.

We'll start with the less-questioned ones: Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu. 

Okay, these are pretty well established as being valid, no major issue there... but they do bear a bit of a closer look. Both these arts trace themselves to Takamatsu via Ishitani (who is only given that name in the Takamatsu traditions, by the way... everywhere else reads his name as Ishiya... just a thing to know...), who was a shihan of Takagi Ryu and Kukishin Ryu (his name is listed in both mainline lineages... not as soke in Kukishin, for the record, but as the 15th Shihan of the Ouchi-Ijin line of Kukishin Ryu). He was said to have worked as a security guard in the Takamatsu family match factory, and taught Takamatsu in his late-teens through to his twenties (he received Menkyo Kaiden in 1913). It was through this teaching that Takamatsu was also acknowledged as a shihan of Kukishin Ryu as a part of the restoration efforts of Kuki Takaharu, 26th soke of the school, including being involved in the creation of the Kodo Senyokai Shobukyoku with another senior student, Iwami Nangaku. Takamatsu left the Kukishin Ryu around 1934, after refusing an offer to take over the Shobukyoku after Iwami died. By 1950, Takamatsu had created his own organisation, the Kashihara Shobukyoku, to teach his approach to these schools. As part of the founding of this school, Takamatsu sent a letter to Kuki Takaharu, asking for permission to start a branch of the Kukishin Ryu (teaching what he called Kukishin Ryu Ninpo). He was refused permission to do that, but was allowed to create his own material based on the arts he had been taught.

After this, Takamatsu began introducing things like Togakure Ryu, as well as Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, and Shinden Fudo Ryu, which he would claim he was taught by his uncle or grandfather (the terms are hard to differentiate... basically an older, male family member), who ran a dojo teaching Shinden Fudo Ryu... much of the material of this Togakure Ryu was, remarkably, incredibly similar to the ninjutsu teachings of the Kukishin Ryu that were no longer practiced or maintained by the school, being part of the Dai no Hyoho (large-scale military strategies), with the school only teaching their Sho no Hyoho (small-scale/individual combat strategies) from the mid-late Edo period onwards. However, they were still found in the Kuki family archives, which Takamatsu had studied in a great deal of detail, and even helped reconstruct when some were lost to a fire (specifically the Amatsu Tatara teachings, as well as some of the naginata and other methods). 

When looking at the Koto/Gyokko approaches, they're quite notable (as Japanese arts) for a number of things, such as a abundance of unarmed kamae (Japanese jujutsu systems tend to not have them, whereas Chinese arts tend to have quite a few... mainly due to the prevalence of solo drills and forms). This then supports the idea that they are, really, reworked systems that Takamatsu learnt in China, where he spent a decade travelling, teaching, and training.

Okay, so there's questions on, what, everything other than Takagi and Kukishin... but it's not even that simple. The line of Takagi Yoshin Ryu taught in the Bujinkan is the Mizuta-den... not the Ishitani-den. But the one verifiable teacher of Takamatsu that we have is Ishitani... who gave him the two unassailed arts... where does Mizuta fit in? Well, according to the story, after training with Ishitani, Takamatsu met Mizuta, and learnt from him... that line came from a generation before Ishitani, even though it's a simpler structure overall. But, in the decade after getting his Menkyo Kaiden, that's when he was in China... so... when did he meet Mizuta? One real possibility is that it is a created lineage, based on the Ishitani material, but simplified, and given to Hatsumi, as Takamatsu had already given the next generation of the Ishitani line to Sato Kinbei. Not saying that's what happened, but it's a real possibility. Okay, so the legit jujutsu line isn't as legit... still a legit school, but a somewhat fabricated lineage... I'm not getting into my thinking as to the execution of the school here, but there's more to go into in regards to whether or not it's actually Takagi Yoshin Ryu at the end of the day.

So, Kukishin Ryu. Legit. He was a shihan of the school, after all, right? Even after he left, other senior members of the Kukishin Ryu would seek Takamatsu out for more study... so that's gotta be good. Well....

To be honest, even that's not as legit as it seems. The only part of the school that is genuinely Kukishin Ryu is the bojutsu... and, even there, only the section referred to as the Keiko Sabaki Gata (Goho, Ura Goho, Sashiai, Funa Bari etc etc). The rest of the school is what I would call Kukishin based (or related), with the various aspects coming from a variety of other lines, as none of it has much correspondence to the actual school. And, even with the primary bojutsu aspect, the line taught in the Takamatsu schools is more a synthesis of the Takagi Ryu/Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu curriculum, and the Kukishin Ryu curriculum, so it's maybe 80% matching in terms of structure... but most kata are done rather differently.

So, what's not questioned? That's the thing... there's something to question in almost all of the schools.



dunc said:


> Sure some lineages are more murky historically, but these account for about 5% of the curriculum and regardless of the limited data points available to validate their history the techniques work well in my experience



The techniques "working" isn't the issue, though... a modern rifle works fine, but it's not a 16th Century matchlock, and claiming it is is being disingenuous, at the best. As far as the "murky history" arts accounting for about 5% of the curriculum... that's... generous. Let's look... 

Takagi Yoshin Ryu - about 130 kata
Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu - about 25 kata

Total 155 kata.

(Other schools) 

Kukishin Ryu
Bojutsu - about 30 kata
Hanbo - about 16 kata
Jo - 9 kata
Sword - 9 kata
Kodachi - 3 kata
Spear - 30 kata
Naginata - 9 kata
Bisento - 9 kata
Jutte - 5 kata
Taijutsu - 60 kata

Gyokko Ryu - about 50 kata
Koto Ryu - about 50 kata
Shinden Fudo Ryu - 28 kata
Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu - 30 kata
Togakure Ryu sword - 17 kata
Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu (not kata) - 15 primary sections

Total 370 kata/ninjutsu teachings

Unofficial schools
Shinden Fudo Ryu Taijutsu - about 80 kata
Asayama Ichiden Ryu - around 60 kata, some lines extend to around 123.

Total 140-203 (depending on how they're taught).

This is not including ura gata in the main and variations. Nor is it looking too hard at the Takagi and Kukishin lineage issues.



dunc said:


> Also worth noting that Hatsumi sensei has been designated a living national treasure (_Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha)_ by the government



Er... no. For one thing, there is no category for martial arts within the listing... it covers traditional arts and crafts, such as Noh, Kabuki, music... secondly, in 2000, he received an award for his work in International Cultural Promotion, which was issued by the Royal Family of Japan (not the Emperor themselves). 



dunc said:


> They limit these to a total of 116 living people and in terms of martial artists he's in the same company as the Soke of Bokuden Ryu and Seikichi Uehara or the chef Jiro Ono



No, he's not. There are zero martial artists listed as "living National treasures". There are a number of arts that are designated "intangible cultural assets", but the Bujinkan in not one of them. And which Bokuden Ryu soke do you think also has such a (non-existent) award? Kai Kuniyuki, who teaches a school of Bokuden Ryu Jujutsu and Iai (which also comes from Ueno Takashi, and Hatsumi has shown some of the jujutsu in the past), or the more legit Bokuden Ryu Kenjutsu? I mean, it's neither, but still... curious.



dunc said:


> He was awarded the level of "sword saint" (or similar translation) from the national association for preserving the methods of kenjutsu



What?!?!?!?!

Dunc... dude... no. Not even close. Nowhere near it. Firstly, there's no such "award", and no body that could, or would, award it. It's a term used (typically after death) to some of the greatest swordsman from Japanese Sengoku and Edo periods. Secondly, you think he got it for "preserving the methods of kenjutsu"!?!?! Look... to be kind, Hatsumi's sword is... far from good. His Iai is filled with problems, and his ken is almost entirely made-up in the moment... he's not "preserving" anything. This is before we even start to look at the sword lines in the Bujinkan being restructuring (at the most generous) of other material, or created wholesale from other material, by Takamatsu.

No.



tim po said:


> i am unaware of that, but there are few more trustworthy sources to my knowledge.



Again, this comes back to how far your knowledge extends...



tim po said:


> hmm... i actually dont know how i ended up with both of you in this response, i really kinda suck with computers  but any way
> 
> JKS, i had not heard anything about Hatsumi being regarded suspiciously, but being Soke does kinda mean he gets to shape the art however he chooses, far as I know.



Well... yes, and no. The role of a soke is to preserve the art... he can opt to do that the best way he deems fit... what Hatsumi is really doing, though, is using the schools he was given to create an entirely new (modern) art, called Budo Taijutsu.



tim po said:


> and c'mon, how much can we really expect to ever know the true history of Japan, especially the involvement of Shinobi-we're talking about the most secretive members of the most secretive people in the history of the world!



Er... Japan was one of the most literate and bureaucratic societies in history... the main reason there's not a lot of information is that it wasn't considered overly important. The individual traditions would have their own records of their methods, but it was a minor aspect. Records would often cite the more important events, rather than "scouts reported 150 enemy by using the secret methods of shinobi iri"...   



tim po said:


> would not surprise me if there were deviations. to be fair, i never really got into SKH, he was kinda too 'Mr. Rogers' for me.



Okay.



tim po said:


> Gerry, I thought i gave sufficient answer to this question in the quoted response, the relevance being war, essentially. all martial arts were created during a time when they were needed, to fight for everything people fought for.



The problem is that that is an inaccurate assessment of the situation and reality.



tim po said:


> as civilians in a time so removed from when any of these things happened, do we do ourselves harm or favor by clinging to traditions? if we favor traditions and wish to keep them relevant, how best to do that, with an art like this? focusing on Ninjutsu, without the Ninpo, will only make clever criminals.



To be honest, that doesn't begin to make sense.



tim po said:


> the more i think about it, the less i agree with myself, using Ninjutsu as the umbrella term for all of the traditions that still live from this shrouded past is well and good. i always sought to avoid it, if pressed, i was satisfied when they told me they never heard of Ninpo Taijutsu! What always impressed me most was the core philosophy, as i was able to understand it based on the sources and people available, including Hatsumi Soke.e recently writings of Fujita Seiko have been translated too.



Here's the thing... the core philosophy is found through the physical methods in classical arts... reading can help flesh them out, but you need to have the physical basis first.



tim po said:


> I have had people tell me they think Taijutsu is weak. such and such is better, of course. but taijutsu IS weak, without Ninpo, and yeah, a little bit of ninjutsu too.



Again... that doesn't make any sense...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> My issue with Hatsumi is stuff like this;



Ha, my issues go well beyond that... but that's for another time, I suppose... 



Hanzou said:


> One of the beautiful things about ground fighting/newaza is that due to its nature, it's rather easy to discern what is nonsense and what actually would work in a given situation.



Well, yes, and no... if you gain sufficient experience and exposure to anything, it's easy to pick out what is and isn't "good" (or effective within it's intended context). For those less informed? Not so easy... I mean, I could post video after video of sword, and it's incredibly apparent to me what's good, what's great, and what's incredibly problematic... but I doubt you'd have anywhere near the same appraisal ability... and that's okay.



Hanzou said:


> What Hatsumi is doing here is utter, pure nonsense.



Yes, it is. It really, really is.



Hanzou said:


> I could toss a BJJ white belt in there with a few months experience  and Hatsumi would get subbed over and over again.



This is where context comes into it... not that I'm defending what was shown, but the idea of "subbing" people just isn't in the mentality here... you might as well say that a basketball player will get taken out by a tennis player in a game of tennis... 



tim po said:


> war _was_ the relevance. war is still a thing, and it could be said that the martial arts being cultivated by the world's special forces are the cutting edge of modern martial arts development in a way,



Special Ops don't develop martial arts. They don't have the time to. They develop combative methods, which is something quite different.



tim po said:


> but our culture is very competitive and sports are an enormous influence on so many people.



Modern cultures (Western) love rap music and electronic garbage... that doesn't mean there aren't fans of Beethoven and Led Zeppelin still around. In other words, it's not a good idea to generalise an entire culture when looking at rather niche appeals.



tim po said:


> for many arts, there are certainly exceptions, that relevance has translated into sport and exhibition, in the name of tradition and the preservation of heritage for some more than others. in some cases, there are ways they can fall short of staying relevant by clinging to rigid kata. it cannot for work for Ninpo to  become sport, though it has been made a spectactle by our culture no doubt, so it seems to me that the natural evolution has to align with cultural goals of a different nature to stay relevant - and (hopefully) moral in purpose.



Yeah... the thing is, a traditional art needs to retain relevance to it's culture itself, not another one (Dave Lowry has a great article on a palm tree in Missouri looking at this idea: Introduction: A Coconut Palm in Missouri



tim po said:


> i had to practice my googlejutsu, so i googled 'gray man'. i thought it was just about my beard, but, yeah, that's kinda what i feel the relevance of Ninpo in our modern age is closer to, for me (not for people still involved in war) and the approach to technique in Ninpo Taijutsu lends itself well to a martial-minded type who strives to cultivate such a persona. the hidden intention, stealth. the skills spoken of, escape and evasion, urban camoflouge, awareness, definetly modern Ninjutsu in it's own way. though i actually feel silly now that i know its a trending thing..



These can be valuable skills, agreed... many modern self defence systems (Richard Dmitri's being a favourite of mine at the moment... puts out some great stuff on facebook for free)... of course, the "nin" aspect is not necessary... the way you're approaching it seems a bit... fantasy infused, if you'll allow the observation.



BrendanF said:


> I'm no expert on the historicity of ninja/ninjutsu - I'm sure Chris would know far more about that stuff.  But in my experience with koryu practitioners and teachers in Japan, Mr Hatsumi and the 'x-kan' organisations are viewed as a bit of a laughing stock; a tourist exploitation machine based on some pretty cringy, childish ideas.  Not seen as either legitimate martial arts, or historical traditions.



Agreed.



BrendanF said:


> Of course this does not sit well with the legions of foreigners who have time and emotion invested in these organisations.  They often cite the Emperor giving Mr Hatsumi an award as 'proof' of his good standing (I understand he received an award 'for contributions to tourism' from the Emperor - I don't think he was designated a living cultural asset and would be keen to see evidence to support that)



From the Royal Family, not the Emperor... and, yeah, not even close to a living national treasure... there isn't a category for martial arts for that award.



BrendanF said:


> It is pretty apparent that much of the 'ninja' stuff was created by Mr Hatsumi's teacher, Takamatsu, and does not have any history prior to that.



That's the safe money, yeah.



jks9199 said:


> Regarding Hatsumi -- from various things I've read, some question not so much him, but the origins of some of the material he received from Takamatsu.



That's certainly a big part of it... but Hatsumi's approach itself lends itself to questions of credibility, considering the somewhat hit-and-miss creative application approach, and eschewing of almost all traits and aspects that would be expected of a traditional, or even a Japanese art in many ways... I sometimes wonder what the public response would have been like if Hatsumi had opted to teach the arts "straight", rather than applying a constant variation creative approach... I suppose it would be essentially the Genbukan, where there's far less questioning, despite it being based in the same traditions from the same sources in the main... not that the Genbukan is without it's own issues, but it doesn't seem to attract the same criticism and negative image that the Bujinkan does.



jks9199 said:


> I fully confess that I'm not versed enough in the issues to have a good opinion; some of the material from Takamatsu is well documented in many areas.  Some of it -- not so much.  Doesn't mean it's not valid or true, simply that some of the groups didn't leave a record as clearly as others.



Some has a bit of supporting documentation... most of the well documented arts aren't as much Bujinkan as they're made out to be... 



Hanzou said:


> The stuff he demonstrated in that video I posted definitely isn't valid.



Yeah... unfortunately, there's not much of a critical feedback loop, so things like this get swallowed by the majority of the Bujinkan membership... 



BrendanF said:


> Exactly.  Takamatsu was legitimately a senior figure in two koryu that were/are traditionally taught together, due to a challenge between the two headmasters centuries ago - Kukishin ryu and Takagi ryu.



Even that gets wonderfully complicated... the Kukishin line that Ohkuni Kihei brought to the Takagi Ryu with his meeting of Takagi Gennoshin was an off-shoot of an off-shoot of the family school... some accounts have Ohkuni being the founder of that particular line, others have him as the 4th head of one line, and the official Kukishin lineage places him as the 6th head of the Ouchi-Ijin line (which lead to Ishitani). The Kukishin Ryu Bojutsu that is transmitted within the Takagi Ryu Jujutsu (mainline) is not considered official Kukishin Ryu by the family (nor is Hatsumi's Kukishinden Happo Biken... there was a letter sent to the Kukishin Ryu by Hatsumi discussing the make up of his line, in which he claimed the position of 28th Soke. It was considered to be interesting, but not the same school).



BrendanF said:


> He apparently also received paperwork for a couple of other arts like Shinden Fudo ryu that were independently documented.



Personally, I think most of what Hatsumi got from Takamatsu was paperwork only... where Takamatsu got it from is another question. Shinden Fudo Ryu is often cited as "legit", however people kinda gloss over the fact that it was supposed to have been taught to him by Toda... who has not been shown to have existed... which is where he "got" Togakure, Koto, Gyokko, Gyokushin, Gikan... so, if the source of those schools is doubted, doesn't that put Shinden Fudo in doubt as well? Yes, there are other schools called Shinden Fudo Ryu that are traceable, notably the Taijutsu (that Ueno Takashi received), and a school of the same name that William Barton-Wright apparently studied that is unrelated... but the Dakentaijutsu in the Bujinkan? That's more of a mystery... 



BrendanF said:


> At some point Takamatsu wrote to the head of the Kuki family, who are hereditary custodians of a Shinto shrine and the orthodox Kukishin ryu, for permission to use their name in creating a new 'koryu karate' system.  I don't think he ended up doing that.  He was very old and apparently suffering mentally when he taught Hatsumi - he wrote lineages for his new 'ninja' ryuha that included comic book characters and the like.



One thought about the Kukishin Ryu Taijutsu in the Bujinkan is that it was created to counter karate and judo (which explains the types of attacks seen there, which are all stepping punches, kicks, and seoinage style throws)... but the request was for a Chosui-ha Kukishin Ryu Ninpo... and, yeah, the answer was a polite, but definite, no. As far as the lineages, yeah, there's a number of interesting names through there...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 18, 2021)

tim po said:


> woah.  anybody ever asks me what a ninja is again i'm just gonna say 'a what?' and tell them to ask you.



Ha, no problem.



tim po said:


> Thank you, for taking so much time to actually address each line of my rambling in turn, and i'm still sorry you had to, but this is the most information on the history of Japanese martial arts I have ever read in one place.



No problem. Hope it was interesting for you.



tim po said:


> there really is no reason i should expect that anything i have ever learned is true. for awhile i did try pretty hard to get the story straight, but 30 years ago, there was no internet and sources were few and mostly horseshit, and now it seems that the few i always thought were legit, also full of fabrications.  by then i didn't have any crazy ideas about becoming a ninja assassin, but found a core of technique that allowed me to learn so much more over the years.
> 
> i know you want to know about my training, there really isn't much to point to there. i was never a student of the Bujinkan. I went to seminars at Bujinkan schools and to Tai Kai events (and had no right to be there but no one asked) and i read everything i could find and watched all the damn videos...i had a loose affiliation of freaks i trained(really very hard) with(some of them went on to high ranking within the Bujinkan) but i won't give names.  for the next 15 years i traveled and trained with dozens of people, some masters of an art, most just enthusiasts of the path, but what i had (thought i ) learned from the philosophies put forth (as Ninpo) became to me the key to understanding everything else I observed  (well, that and Quigong).  been a hermit about 12 years now, and just recently(been injured) got to thinking i would get involved again, but i haven't even used the internet much. don't trust it, everyone lies. and i have quickly come to realize that my isolated path, for whatever practicality it has served me, has little to offer here.



Hmm... so, a few scant and separated lessons in large seminars over a short number of years? Yeah, I'm not overly surprised that your understanding is a bit... off. Again, not an attack, just an observation. 

Thanks for sharing your background. It helps me understand where you're coming from.


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## tim po (Dec 18, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i'm not surprised either, this is exactly what i hoped to find, and yes it has been (and will continue to be) an informative read. 

i am coming across like a fantasy fan, i see that. actually i have tried to stay as far away from 'claiming' Ninpo, or any martial art (the only one i earned a black belt in was Tang Soo Do), and instead have focused purely on relevant self defense(as i see it). privately, i have always held everything i've learned against the lessons i gleaned from the Bujinkan and other practioners, because i always felt that it aligned most specifically with my intention, part of that being to 'not look like a fight' and avoid calling attention to myself in this way.and there are techniques i learned from Ninpo practioners that  i have never seen anywhere else, probably because they are too nasty for most modern schools. also some of the things i often see( in Aikido for instance) lack certain elements that would make them more realistic, the use of distancing, using the body to pin an arm rather than grabbing the wrist, subtle things that were related to me by observing Hatsumi"s Budo Taijutsu and I valued that instruction.

when i was a kid i knew every dinosaur, because there were only like 12 of them. when my daughter was into them, few of those even existed anymore and there were 2000 new ones, this is kinda like that. there was very little to go on, last time i was looking. but so many hilarious fakes, i watched their videos too( we actually had to buy the VHS tape back then). amazing how much you can learn about what not to do, that can be useful too. i'm bummed that Hatsumi is not taken seriously though, but that video is undefendable, even though i want to, i can't. 

There was another school you mentioned earlier but not in this last post, the Kumogakure Ryu. I always liked what I saw of it's approach, i wonder now if it was legitimate in any way. is it true the the Kumogakre Ryu was related to Ba Gua?


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## tim po (Dec 18, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Well, you'd really need to be a lot more specific, there, Dunc... which specific lineages are you referring to? Cause... yeah, there's a lot of them that are pretty questioned... let's break them down.
> 
> We'll start with the less-questioned ones: Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Kukishin Ryu.
> 
> ...


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 18, 2021)

Chris, thanks for clarifying the "Hatsumi Kensei" thing. I was shocked to hear that.  It didn't sound right, but so much about Ninjutsu never does.

On the "suffering" translation you're right, I could have been more clear. I didn't mean literal pain suffering, but as you said the endurance of it.  From Chinese Ren fa/Jan fat.

Which is the central idea I think of when I think of ninpo, the ability to withstand. That's where I see overlap with the concept of kung fu, since both imply a willingness to train to overcome obstacles, hardship, whatever.  I know Ren Fa is also found in Shaolin scripture, I'll try to find where I read that.  

Does that make more sense?  I won't be able to finish reading your posts until after the holidays, but they sure look informative from space.


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## dunc (Dec 18, 2021)

@tim po You’ll find that folks on here hold differing views on Hatsumi, his skill and the veracity of the traditions he teaches
As with every human endeavour folks align themselves into a particular tribe or group and work hard to provide arguments to reinforce their tribe’s position
Sports martial artists have an issue with his assertion that certain techniques can’t be sparred and the lack of sparring in the general Bujinkan community
Koryu practitioners have an issue with his assertion that the traditions need to continually evolve in order to survive and that this is part of the tradition
Independents tend to look for gaps in what he teaches and illustrate how they have filled those gaps with their own training/research in order to differentiate themselves
I have an agenda because I’ve been deeply involved in the Bujinkan for over 30 years
and so on

You’ll have to make up your own mind…

You can probably google my post about the living cultural treasure ( _Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha_) and reach your own conclusions 
My comment about the sword association was based on my personal experience (hence I don’t know the exact details), but probably it will be googleable. Basically when he was teaching sword these old dudes turned up to training in the Ayase Budokan taking notes and having long discussions with Soke and the shihan. I was there. After a while folks shared that he’d earned the highest award as a sword master from this group, and he has the certificate on his office wall (along with all the other stuff like that) for all to see

There are several students of Hatsumi who also train in Koryu arts. One western Japan resident is Mark Lithgow. I’ve only heard that their teachers treat Hatsumi sensei with respect, but probably there are some Japanese Koryu practitioners who feel differently

I agree with folks that the ground work in the Bujinkan is nonexistent and the only video where he shows anything like that is the one posted on this thread. If you look carefully at the clips he’s showing variations of trap and roll, but his partners don’t have a clue what they’re doing on the ground so he has no need to move in a big way and can mess around with catching them with “early unexpected stuff“ which he likes to do (because he‘s old and likes to be creative)


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## lklawson (Dec 18, 2021)

tim po said:


> Thank you, for taking so much time to actually address each line of my rambling in turn, and i'm still sorry you had to, but this is the most information on the history of Japanese martial arts I have ever read in one place.


Yeah, stick around for a while. Chris doesn't post often but when he does buckle up!


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## BrendanF (Dec 19, 2021)

tim po said:


> i wonder now if it was legitimate in any way. is it true the the Kumogakure Ryu was related to Ba Gua?



I'd be amazed if it was, other than through some contact Takamatsu may have had.  Baguazhang is a relatively young art; it was created/taught by Dong Haichuan around the Beijing area in the late 1800s.


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## dunc (Dec 19, 2021)

BrendanF said:


> I'd be amazed if it was, other than through some contact Takamatsu may have had.  Baguazhang is a relatively young art; it was created/taught by Dong Haichuan around the Beijing area in the late 1800s.


This I never heard
There are a couple of westerners in Japan who also train in Ba Gua and sometimes highlight similarities between that and taijutsu, but to my eyes these similarities are no different from that you’d see by looking across many other styles


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## Oily Dragon (Dec 19, 2021)

Bagua didn't come out of thin air, it was synthesized from older Daoist training like circle walking meditation.

That stuff goes way back to sects like Loong Men and Quan Zhen and probably further.  At least 1200 years.

There has been a lot of time for cultural mixing, which may be why some things (meditation) are common to these arts, and others like literal names and descriptions are different or totally alien.





__





						Origins of the Circle Walk Practice in Ba Gua Zhang - Circle Walking
					

The art of Ba Gua Zhang was developed during the mid 1800's by Dong Hai Chuan, however, the circle walk practice which he used as a basis for his art was




					www.selfdefenseguides.info


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## BrendanF (Dec 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> Bagua didn't come out of thin air, it was synthesized from older Daoist training like circle walking meditation.



Obviously it didn't come out of thin air, it did however come about in the second half of the nineteenth century.  While I personally think Kang Ge Wu's theories are plausible, the history is in no way a settled topic.  I've seen others forward the Bapanzhang origin story with as much certainty.


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## jks9199 (Dec 19, 2021)

Very few arts came out of nowhere -- except for Sinanju, and even that came from the Sun Source to the Great Wang.

Most arts developed as a couple of guys shared what worked with each other.  Eventually, they got systemized.  Then people started monkeying with them, and we get the mess of today...


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## Chris Parker (Dec 20, 2021)

tim po said:


> i'm not surprised either, this is exactly what i hoped to find, and yes it has been (and will continue to be) an informative read.



No problem.



tim po said:


> i am coming across like a fantasy fan, i see that. actually i have tried to stay as far away from 'claiming' Ninpo, or any martial art (the only one i earned a black belt in was Tang Soo Do), and instead have focused purely on relevant self defense(as i see it). privately, i have always held everything i've learned against the lessons i gleaned from the Bujinkan and other practioners, because i always felt that it aligned most specifically with my intention, part of that being to 'not look like a fight' and avoid calling attention to myself in this way.and there are techniques i learned from Ninpo practioners that  i have never seen anywhere else, probably because they are too nasty for most modern schools. also some of the things i often see( in Aikido for instance) lack certain elements that would make them more realistic, the use of distancing, using the body to pin an arm rather than grabbing the wrist, subtle things that were related to me by observing Hatsumi"s Budo Taijutsu and I valued that instruction.



Hmm... without a more involved history in the art, the best I would suggest is that you've developed your own perception of what things like Hatsumi's art are about, and contain... and I don't know that it's particularly accurate. That doesn't mean it's not valuable to you, just that your take on things might not actually match the reality of them. Just something to be aware of.



tim po said:


> when i was a kid i knew every dinosaur, because there were only like 12 of them. when my daughter was into them, few of those even existed anymore and there were 2000 new ones, this is kinda like that. there was very little to go on, last time i was looking. but so many hilarious fakes, i watched their videos too( we actually had to buy the VHS tape back then). amazing how much you can learn about what not to do, that can be useful too. i'm bummed that Hatsumi is not taken seriously though, but that video is undefendable, even though i want to, i can't.



Honestly, and this is one of the most important take-aways here, I don't think Hatsumi would care less what people think of his art, his performances, his techniques, or anything else. He has his audience, and plays to them... and, so long as they are appreciative, what does it matter what anyone else thinks? Same with the members of the Bujinkan. I'm under no illusion that my comments here will change the minds of any Bujinkan membership... it may get one or two to think about things a slightly different way, but that's about it. It's more about my being true to the reality of the situation as I see it... which has taken me to a perception that, understandably, can be a bit confronting for Hatsumi's supporters and fans... students of his or not.

And, really, it doesn't matter. Hatsumi will do what Hatsumi does, and his students will either follow it, or not. If they do, my words won't change their mind, and if they don't, then they stop being his students... it would be neither the first, nor the last time that would happen.



tim po said:


> There was another school you mentioned earlier but not in this last post, the Kumogakure Ryu. I always liked what I saw of it's approach, i wonder now if it was legitimate in any way. is it true the the Kumogakre Ryu was related to Ba Gua?



Ah, Kumogakure Ryu... this is quite an intriguing topic... yeah, I left it off, and there are, of course, reasons for that... 

Kumogakure Ryu has a fairly unique position in the Bujinkan ryu-ha... it's one of the three "ninjutsu" arts, along with Togakure Ryu and Gyokushin Ryu, and it's claimed history basically says that it was an off-shoot of Togakure, being founded around 1532 by one Iga Heinaizaemon Ienaga, so the idea of it being related to Ba Gua is... well, I honestly don't know where that idea even comes from. In fact, Kumogakure Ryu is quite contradictory in terms of information about it's technical and informational make-up... 

Over the decades, realistically, the Bujinkan has taught using kata and methods from only 6 of the 9 schools, being Togakure, Gyokko, Koto, Shinden Fudo (Dakentaijutsu), Kukishinden, and Takagi Yoshin Ryu. The other three, Gikan, Gyokushin, and Kumogakure, have never really been officially revealed... there are a number of videos of Hatsumi and others teaching things that are claimed/referenced as these arts, however they are often contradictory to other sources claiming to be the same arts... combined with reports that Gyokushin and Kumogakure Ryu have no actual techniques or technical methods at all. So, you'll get one report stating some basic principles and technical traits of a school, then someone will show specific techniques (that contradict the first report), then someone will also say that Hatsumi told them there are no techniques... followed by someone else saying that Hatsumi has shown them techniques from it. So, yeah... in a real way, these arts might as well not exist practically.

Okay, so that's one side of things... the lack of material, and claimed history. We have that with three schools, so why did I say that Kumogakure is unique? Because it wasn't there originally.

In the 70's, Hatsumi was presenting himself as the soke of 8 ryu, not 9... being Togakure Ryu, Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu, Kukishinden Happo Biken (note: not Kukishinden Ryu... there are reasons, but I'm not getting into that here... at least, not yet...), Shinden Fudo Ryu, Gikan Ryu (another interesting case... the dispute over proper sokeship came up in a court case involving Hatsumi and Tanemura... and Tanemura was recognised as having the legitimate claim...), and Gyokushin Ryu. This was how he described himself in his letter to the Kuki family, when he was presenting himself as the 28th Soke of Kukishinden Happo Biken, and they were asking about his connection to their school, and how it differed, considering his teacher was their former Shihan. Then, a few years after Takamatsu died, he announced he was also the soke of Kumogakure Ryu, with a lineage presented having it travel through the Toda family to Takamatsu, then to Hatsumi. It is interesting to note, however, that in no older records are there any mention of Kumogakure Ryu coming via Toda to Takamatsu... nor of Takamatsu mentioning it that I have found... for instance, there is no mention of it in Andy Adams' "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins", one of the earliest properly researched books in English from the 60's... although most of the other schools are (Shinden Fudo Ryu is just referred to as Fudo Ryu, Kukishinden is called Kukishin, Takagi Yoshin is just Takagi, Gyokko, Koto, and Togakure are all named as well... Gikan and Gyokushin are also missing, for the record).

So, is it true that Kumogakure Ryu is related to Ba Gua? Let's safety say... no.



Oily Dragon said:


> Chris, thanks for clarifying the "Hatsumi Kensei" thing. I was shocked to hear that.  It didn't sound right, but so much about Ninjutsu never does.



Oh, read on... there's a bit of clarification below that you may find interesting... 



Oily Dragon said:


> On the "suffering" translation you're right, I could have been more clear. I didn't mean literal pain suffering, but as you said the endurance of it.  From Chinese Ren fa/Jan fat.
> 
> Which is the central idea I think of when I think of ninpo, the ability to withstand. That's where I see overlap with the concept of kung fu, since both imply a willingness to train to overcome obstacles, hardship, whatever.  I know Ren Fa is also found in Shaolin scripture, I'll try to find where I read that.
> 
> Does that make more sense?  I won't be able to finish reading your posts until after the holidays, but they sure look informative from space.



Hope you get something out of them.



dunc said:


> @tim po You’ll find that folks on here hold differing views on Hatsumi, his skill and the veracity of the traditions he teaches
> As with every human endeavour folks align themselves into a particular tribe or group and work hard to provide arguments to reinforce their tribe’s position
> Sports martial artists have an issue with his assertion that certain techniques can’t be sparred and the lack of sparring in the general Bujinkan community
> Koryu practitioners have an issue with his assertion that the traditions need to continually evolve in order to survive and that this is part of the tradition
> ...



Hmm... cautioning against bias is perfectly valid, however I would say to be careful trying to generalise such bias'. For example, I have not heard of any koryu practitioner or teacher having any issue with Hatsumi's assertions about "evolving"... we do say that his approach is not koryu, which it isn't... but to attribute a value to that is to misunderstand the statement. Additionally, to say that "independents tend to look for gaps in what (Hatsumi) teaches..." again, flagrantly misrepresents the situation.

Speaking for myself, who is both independent Takamatsuden and koryu, both statements are thoroughly inaccurate. As koryu, we don't care what Hatsumi does or believes about how his martial arts should be done, or what should happen with his schools... they're his, and it's up to him. We do care when Bujinkan practitioners make out that what they're doing is koryu, and more so when they try to explain koryu or koryu mentality to us. Speaking as an independent, we don't look for anything in what Hatsumi does, especially not "gaps"... we do, however, aim to be true to our understanding and values... and that is what leads to separation in the main. 

This is the thing about not being Bujinkan... we don't really care what the Bujinkan does. I know I don't. I care about the arts themselves, and, frankly, don't see them in the Bujinkan at all.

The other point is that having a particular vantage point does not necessarily mean that the perception is invalid... having a different perspective doesn't mean it's not a correct, or valuable one. But rarely does it go to the idea of "reinforcing their tribe's position"... that, really, is more cult-speak than anything else. Koryu aren't a "tribe". Independents aren't a "tribe". Sports practitioners aren't a "tribe". None of these groups agree even with each other, so none are reinforcing the ideas or positions of some imaginary group-mind. Nor is any of this necessarily rising to the level of "agenda".

The reality is simple; we all speak from our own experience and understanding. That's all. Can those experiences and that understanding be skewed, or off? Certainly. Can they be imbalanced, or unnecessarily inaccurate? Sure. That's why you take all the information you can get, and weight it against your own experience and understanding... but, and this is the important point in all of this, not all experience and understanding is equal. The opinions of someone with only one viewpoint contrasted with one with multiple cannot be equally assessed... by the same token, the more emotionally invested cannot be deemed equivalent to the measured. As you say, it's up to the reader to try to figure which is which... 



dunc said:


> You can probably google my post about the living cultural treasure ( _Jūyō Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha_) and reach your own conclusions



Say, there's a good idea...

List of all (ALL) recipients of the Juyo Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha award (performing arts), and the categories they were given it in:




__





						List of Living National Treasures of Japan (performing arts) - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Again, there is no category for martial arts. There is no martial artist who has EVER been given such an award. None.

And, as already explained, Hatsumi was not given this award... he was given an award for the promotion of Japanese culture, which is an award from the royal family (but not the Emperor)... I mean, you can continue to argue against the facts, but it's not going to help your cause.



dunc said:


> My comment about the sword association was based on my personal experience (hence I don’t know the exact details), but probably it will be googleable. Basically when he was teaching sword these old dudes turned up to training in the Ayase Budokan taking notes and having long discussions with Soke and the shihan. I was there. After a while folks shared that he’d earned the highest award as a sword master from this group, and he has the certificate on his office wall (along with all the other stuff like that) for all to see



Okay, this took a bit more digging... again, as stated, there is no such thing as a "kensei" award, nor is anyone in any position to give one... but I did find what you're talking about.

Hatsumi was given an award labeled "Todo Hanshi" from a group called the Zen Nippon Todo Renmei, and it's then-president, Nakazawa Toshi. The award name basically means "model teacher of the path of the sword"... not quite the "Master Teacher of the Way of the Sword" as many Bujinkan pages put it... but there's quite a bit to unpack.

Firstly, the only record/account of this award is purely in relation to Hatsumi. It was awarded in February, 1995... which is some 6 years after the Zen Nippon Todo Renmei was formed. So, naturally, the question has to be, who is this group? Basically, they're a bit of an odd grouping, and a very small association (with a handful of members). They were formed in 1989, when a few former members of a Battodo Renmei decided to form their own association (haven't found the reason, but, it could be almost anything, from being kicked out, to being refused promotion, to, well, just wanting to do their own thing). They were headed by Nakazawa Satoshi (all the Bujinkan pages seem to get his name a bit wrong, for the record), who acted as the first chairman... and set about creating their own set of techniques.

What they focus on, though, isn't so much sword as martial artists would view it... its tate (stage fighting). The "head instructor", Hayashi Kunihiro, teaches stage fighting, focused on sword combat, and, well, that's what they do. He has also since created his own "ninjutsu" system, Hayashi-den Ninja Taijutsu... although what it's based on is another question.

So, what we have is a small, minor organisation of little relevance, with little credibility in terms of sword arts (stage fighting, tv and movie choreography, maybe... but that's all they actually do), who turned up at Hatsumi's class, and, without any real authority other than their own self-appointed one (and, to be clear, absolutely no authority over or credibility in assessing any other arts that are not part of their association), who decided (for their own reasons) to give Hatsumi an award, based on.... something?

To be honest, it looks like they were seeking to add to their own credibility by associating with Hatsumi, hence the new "ninja" art they also created... but their seal of approval is, bluntly, meaningless. You might as well say that he got the super Naruto award for the purplest hair... and, again, I can't see any legitimate sword association awarding Hatsumi anything for any purpose other than political reasons. Speaking purely as a sword practitioner of a range of schools, Hatsumi's sword is... terrible. Hey, if you like it, great... but that's a preference question, not a quality one.



dunc said:


> There are several students of Hatsumi who also train in Koryu arts. One western Japan resident is Mark Lithgow. I’ve only heard that their teachers treat Hatsumi sensei with respect, but probably there are some Japanese Koryu practitioners who feel differently



Yeah... the Japanese will twist themselves into knots to avoid creating an uncomfortable situation... so speaking of him respectfully, considering his position, is almost expected, really... that's very different from thinking he has much to offer, or has genuine credibility. 

A friend of mine here teaches an art he learnt from his father... who inherited the school from my friends godfather, the founder of the school in the UK. This founder spun some interesting stories about where the various aspects of the school came from (including claiming some Katori, some Takenouchi, and so on), however, it's patently obvious to anyone who knows these schools (or classical Japanese arts) that, no, what we have is a modern mash-up of some basic Judo, Karate, Aikido (well, not really, but they have some spinny-twisty locks that bear a superficial resemblance), largely Okinawan weapons (and Japanese weapons used in an Okinawan fashion), along with a lot of aping and coping (without understanding or insight) of some genuine schools. Still, my friend is convinced that, because his father and godfather taught the school, and there's no way they'd lie to him, it must be genuine... so, each year (at least, up to the global situation), he would go to Japan to try to research and retrace his godfathers' path, finding the origins of his art. It's a futile task, as he'll never find what isn't there, but he's developed a good network of Japanese martial arts teachers, and puts on demonstrations at a few Budokans in front of them... they all nod approvingly, thank him, and praise his efforts and skills... tell him how good his arts are... because that's the Japanese way.

I'm not saying that that's definitely what Mark's teachers are doing, but it would be completely within the Japanese approach... and, really, the majority of koryu teachers around, especially if you get them speaking candidly, may be diplomatic in their language, but will not be overly complimentary of him.



dunc said:


> I agree with folks that the ground work in the Bujinkan is nonexistent and the only video where he shows anything like that is the one posted on this thread. If you look carefully at the clips he’s showing variations of trap and roll, but his partners don’t have a clue what they’re doing on the ground so he has no need to move in a big way and can mess around with catching them with “early unexpected stuff“ which he likes to do (because he‘s old and likes to be creative)



Yeah... look, Dunc, this smacks of the apologetic speech that is sadly all too common. Yes, there's basically no ne-waza in the Bujinkan's arts... there is a little bit (albeit nothing like the context of BJJ), but the issue isn't whether you can find some kind of connection to more commonly found techniques, it's how much understanding of the environment and context is present. That's what Hanzou is talking about. And, for context, it's what I see when I see Hatsumi's sword work as well (hence the above comments).

I get the creative bent that Hatsumi has... I get the appeal it has as well... and, if that's what you're after, or what you value, great! More power to you! But when that creative bent takes him into areas that he is less skilled or insightful in, making apologies for him, and making out that what he's doing is valid, or worse, excellent (not saying that's what you're doing, but it is far from uncommon in the Bujinkan), simply adds to the issues of reputation that the Bujinkan already has.


----------



## dunc (Dec 20, 2021)

Thanks @Chris Parker for correcting me on the  Juyo Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha (Performing Arts) award - I think we are talking across purposes and I probably quoted the wrong one in haste. I was under the impression that he had been awarded the status of a Living National Treasure and that the award was given to folk from all sorts of different traditions - based on things like this Living National Treasure (Japan) (Tesoro_Nacional_Viviente_(Japón)) - wikipe.wiki

I’m not sure if the sword association thing is the same as you quote, my memory was that it was later than 1995, but memory is a fickle thing and perhaps this is what I was referring to

On the koryu teachers’ views on him: I’m suggesting that it’s not as simple as taking the word of a westerner who lives outside Japan and hasn’t really spent much time there. Perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that…. And I base this on the experience of long term Japan residents (and a Japanese friend) who also train koryu 
In my experience Japanese are more than capable of making their feelings known so I don’t buy the “well Japanese can’t say what they really think“ argument

My observation is that you spend a huge amount of time criticising the Bujinkan and you asset that a) you have a better way of performing the techniques from schools that are only taught by people who have learnt under Hatsumi-sensei than he does and b) that techniques from Kukishinden, Takagi Yoshin Ryu etc passed on within the Bujinkan are incorrect. In other words you know better than Hatsumi on these matters are teaching something more authentic. Hence my comment that you as an independent are filling in gaps (as you see them) in the Bujinkan with your own stuff and that’s why you wish to remain an independent 

On the newaza - I think you’re making the point that Hatsumi doesn’t understand newaza, but still teaches it and this is analogous to what he does in other areas. Reinforcing your point that, in your view, he hasn’t got a clue about sword or presumably other similarly ”old school” things. And presumably that you know better
He is a 4th dan in Kodokan Judo and he learnt his trade during the 60s. There is plenty of newaza in that education system
Again, as someone with some newaza  experience myself, my assessment is that the principles and structure of the base technique is OK. eg If person in mount‘s head is to one side (albeit easily achieved by Hatsumi with a bit of pain etc) then control an arm and bridge and roll in that direction


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## Chris Parker (Dec 21, 2021)

Hi Dunc,



dunc said:


> Thanks @Chris Parker for correcting me on the  Juyo Mukei Bunkazai Hojisha (Performing Arts) award - I think we are talking across purposes and I probably quoted the wrong one in haste. I was under the impression that he had been awarded the status of a Living National Treasure and that the award was given to folk from all sorts of different traditions - based on things like this Living National Treasure (Japan) (Tesoro_Nacional_Viviente_(Japón)) - wikipe.wiki



Hmm... not really "crossed purposes"... you made a claim, which was wrong. I corrected it, and you said we could "google it to check for ourselves" (a tacit doubling down, really). So I repeated the correction, providing a link to back up my correction, and repeating the actual award Hatsumi had gotten.

This is, I feel, a bit indicative of how this is going... I post objective facts, or observations and conclusions backed up by a fair bit of supporting material, and you're taking that as my being "critical", or attacking Hatsumi and the Bujinkan. It's not. A statement of fact is not an attack, a correction is not a criticism... but we'll get to that as well.
https://www.wikibook.wiki/wiki/es/Tesoro_Nacional_Viviente_(Japón)


dunc said:


> I’m not sure if the sword association thing is the same as you quote, my memory was that it was later than 1995, but memory is a fickle thing and perhaps this is what I was referring to



It's referenced on a fair few Bujinkan pages, listing both the name of the citation, and the group (including the person involved), with a few giving the dates (one dates it specifically as February 18th, 1995). To contrast it with your claim, which was, and I quote, "(Hatsumi) was awarded the level of 'sword saint' (or similar translation) from the national association for preserving the methods of kenjutsu."

No, he wasn't. He was given a presentation of a, frankly, meaningless "title" from an external organisation that has nothing to do with the Bujinkan, is barely a national organisation, and is not involved in the preservation of anything. Instead, they are a small group of stage (movie and tv) sword combat enthusiasts, one of whom has created his own fight choreography "ninja" martial art, which is the only occasion found of them awarding any such title at all... seemingly to gain some credibility via Hatsumi.

Donald Trump recently got an honorary TKD 9th Dan. It has the same credibility.

The bigger problems with both of these cases are that Hatsumi is happy to accept pretty much anything anyone wants to give him, and the Bujinkan faithful are more than happy to repeat (and often exaggerate) what these awards are... for instance, it's sometimes cited that Hatsumi has a Knighthood from the German National Historical Culture Federation... except Germany did away with aristocracy in the early 20th Century, and hasn't used things like Knighthoods since 1918... some 13 years before Hatsumi was born. And a historical society is absolutely powerless to offer or confer anything like a title of nobility, unless Hatsumi is secretly a member of the SCA? Come to think of it, that would explain the "Todo Hanshi" title as well... 

Oh, but, for the record, here are a few of the pages where this is cited:








						Instructors at Bujinkan: Living-Warrior.com
					

Description of instructors at Bujinkan: Living-Warrior Dojo in Meridian Idaho, serving Boise, Nampa, Caldwell, Middleton, Kuna, Star, and Eagle. Description of the grandmaster Masaaki Hatsumi



					www.living-warrior.com
				







__





						Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi Bio
					






					stlbujinkan.com
				







__





						Living Values explores the physical, mental and ethical world of the warrior
					





					www.livingvalues.com
				







__





						Bujinkan New York Dojo : Articles : Westchester : Ninja and Samurai Martial Arts
					

Offering authentic Samurai and Ninja martial arts in Westchester, New York for over 25 years.



					www.nydojo.com
				




Oh, and about the group themselves (ZNTR):
The bujinkan scrolls: Authentic or not (see "eyebeams'" post, third from the top)
What is Zen Nippon Todo Renmei? Ninja Fraud and Cult 

The point is that I would caution against tauting the various accolades that Hatsumi has amassed over the years... many aren't anywhere near as impressive or meaningful as they're made out to be, and there is a lot of exaggeration (if not outright invented claims) involved.



dunc said:


> On the koryu teachers’ views on him: I’m suggesting that it’s not as simple as taking the word of a westerner who lives outside Japan and hasn’t really spent much time there. Perhaps the situation is more nuanced than that…. And I base this on the experience of long term Japan residents (and a Japanese friend) who also train koryu
> In my experience Japanese are more than capable of making their feelings known so I don’t buy the “well Japanese can’t say what they really think“ argument



Ooh, touche...

Yeah, absolutely it's a lot more nuanced... mind you, I'm basing my comments on conversations with senior and experienced practitioners that have a hell of a lot more time in these areas then both of us do combined... and are far more neutral. And you're right, Japanese are very capable of saying what they really think... they just tend not to when the comments are public... or could upset someone. After all, do you really think Mark's teachers would say "Oh, that other teacher of yours... you don't think that's good, do you?". Koryu are based on relationships, so, by accepting Mark in (and knowing his training with the Bujinkan), breaking that relationship by belittling Hatsumi to him is just... not done. Well... maybe when they're drunk.

Okay, the next part I'm going to break up into very small parts... please feel free to go back to the original quote to ensure the context isn't put aside... but there's things to deal with almost every couple of words... 



dunc said:


> My observation



Thing is, it's not an observation, it's a perception. And the reason I can say that is that, well, for it to be an observation, it would need to be present in the first place to be observed. What's happening, though, is that you're reading value judgements into a lot of the things I say... which, combined with your own emotional investment, leads you to the perception you have.



dunc said:


> is that you spend a huge amount of time criticising the Bujinkan



Well, first off, is the Bujinkan above criticism? Is Hatsumi? If your answer is yes, how do you justify that? If no, what's the problem with it, then?

More to the point, I really don't spend much time at all actually criticising Hatsumi or the Bujinkan... you and I simply tend to only engage on these kind of topics, so you get a very disproportionate sense of just how much energy I put into anything of the kind. I also really wouldn't consider any of this really criticism... anymore than I'd suggest stating that the menu of KFC isn't the healthiest food to eat every day constitutes a criticism. Okay, maybe some of the sword comments... 

What I do, though, is to look critically at the material and teaching methodologies... that's not the same as criticising, of course. By doing that, I am aiming to understand the arts themselves better... which naturally highlights differences and discrepancies, which, combined with my understanding of what constitutes a ryu (and how it manifests in it's technical and other expressions), has given me a particular view of what the Bujinkan (and Hatsumi) does, and what that implies.



dunc said:


> and you asset



Assert?



dunc said:


> that a) you have a better way of performing the techniques



No. I've said this to you before, but you're applying a value judgement where it doesn't actually exist. I don't think I have a "better" way of performing the techniques, other than in that I feel they're more accurate to the actual schools themselves. Whether that's a "better" approach is up to the individual, and what they're wanting out of their study. If you want to follow the Bujinkan approach, where there is a more consistent base, and a lot of variation and "flow", then it's not. If you want to get a better sense of how the school itself operates, then it is. 

You're assuming I am claiming it's "better" because it's what I choose to explore... it's only "better" for me. If you think that you're following path two when you're following path one, of course, that's where the conflict comes into it... 



dunc said:


> from schools that are only taught by people who have learnt under Hatsumi-sensei



Er... no, they're not. We covered this before as well. Besides the mainline Takagi and Kukishin (Kukamishin) lines, there are other lines of Koto and Kijin Chosui Ryu (Kukishin Daken) stemming from Ueno Takashi, who received them from Takamatsu before he even met Hatsumi... where the expression is quite different, and not conforming to the Bujinkan approach at all. That's at least half the unarmed, before we even get to the versions and expressions found in the Genbukan (where, let's not forget, the only ryu that relies on Hatsumi for Tanemura's licences and ranks is Gyokko Ryu... everything else comes from other Takamatsu students... mind you, the Genbukan has the same homogenisation, albeit in a slightly different way).

But, really, it's because there are these non-Hatsumi groups and related lines that we can do a comparison, and begin to get to the heart of them... that's how I've come to this appreciation of the schools.



dunc said:


> than he does



Well, no... not really. Hatsumi has taken the material he has, and teaches it a way that he feels is best (or makes the most sense), or in the only way that he can see them. Now, the question (and it's not one we can definitively answer, but there are some logical assumptions we can make) is exactly what Hatsumi learnt in the first place... did he learn them as a homogenised approach? Or did he change them all to that later himself? Indeed, how much of the schools did he actually learn directly in person? We covered the amount of material in an earlier post, and that's not including a fair bit as well, so it's pretty obvious there's a lot of material... Hatsumi has said that he would travel by train to study with Takamatsu on the weekends for 15 years... but the length of time he spent learning these arts was the first 10, not all 15... this is backed up in Andy Adams' book, where, when asked how long it takes to master these arts, Hatsumi states: "10 years"... the length of time he studied with Takamatsu... 

In addition to this, in 1963, during an interview, Hatsumi stated that he was training on weekends with Takamatsu approximately every 3 months... so it's not even a case of every weekend for those 10 years... for at least a length of time, it was far more infrequent. If we start by saying that it was every 2 months for the first couple of years, then it increased, we're still looking at a total training time with Takamatsu of maybe 300 days total? Divide that by some 700 kata, plus kuden, kizu, various extraneous and supplementary materials, and it becomes apparent that there's no way Takamatsu could have taught, in detail, all the material in the schools that are present and taught now, in that time, no matter how talented Hatsumi was/is. So, it would make sense for there to be a more consistent base that was then applied to more written material style transmission (Hatsumi has often spoken about the many letters and teachings he received from Takamatsu in that format)... so, it's not inconceivable that much of the technical material Hatsumi received were simply descriptions of techniques written down... in that case, it's not surprising that each school would become "variations" of a theme, rather than the individual schools they were initially (or intended to be).

This is further supported by some of the stories regarding the old Quest videos... a senior US based Bujinkan practitioner, who lived and trained in Japan for a decade and a half, was asking one of the shihan who were involved in the making of the videos about them, asking if they received special training in schools and their methods before filming, as it was not really done that individual schools would be taught or studied... the answer was "No, sensei brought the densho, and we would read the technique, then film what we thought it was... we'd ask sensei if that was correct, and he'd say 'yes, that's fine'". In other words, it was the first time many of these shihan had seen these techniques, and they were just trying to interpret them in the moment... watching the videos, it's clear that Hatsumi then does his variations based on the basic form presented by the demonstrators (accurate or not), rather than variations based on the actual technique as it's meant to be done. This, again, naturally leads to the homogenised approach, with similar kamae, attacks, blocking methods, throws, and so on, regardless of school... 



dunc said:


> and b) that techniques from Kukishinden, Takagi Yoshin Ryu etc passed on within the Bujinkan are incorrect.



Only if looked at from the perspective of actually studying the schools. If you're wanting to do Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, how the school actually does them is rather irrelevant... but, for a good demonstration of that, the following video clips both show the Bujinkan and mainline Takagi Ryu kata from a range of sections of the school (with many of them showing the same kata). It's probably important to note that Tsutsui-sensei was a student of Kakuno, who was also a student of Ishitani with Takamatsu... in other words, Kakuno and Takamatsu had the same teacher, and these are their two students/successors... so we're not dealing with drift over a dozen generations or so... 

Bujinkan Takagi Yoshin Ryu video:





Takagi Ryu Jujutsu video:







dunc said:


> In other words you know better than Hatsumi on these matters are teaching something more authentic.



Know better than Hatsumi? No. Have a different emphasis and approach, with a different value, and a different set of priorities when it comes to the schools? Yes. And that's the point. I don't follow the Bujinkan methodology of approaching the schools, so I'm free to explore the schools in a wider context, by looking beyond the approach of the Bujinkan itself.



dunc said:


> Hence my comment that you as an independent are filling in gaps (as you see them) in the Bujinkan with your own stuff and that’s why you wish to remain an independent



Yeah... look, to be honest, I don't think you have the first clue about why I am an independent... or why I remain such. Or, really, even what that means. It's more about finding my own values in the arts, and exploring them in a way that matches my values, not about "finding gaps"... in fact, it's almost exactly opposite to that idea. I've dropped a hell of a lot more that is in the Bujinkan than I've added (in fact, I've added almost nothing... I've refined and re-framed, but not really added much at all, outside of a newer understanding and insight that is applied, and some formalised techniques for a couple of weapons that don't have any... just for better consistency in teaching those to my students).

For the record, what I've dropped is a lot of the weapons that don't actually have formal techniques (aside from one category that I've created my own for), I don't engage in the whole "henka" approach, and so on. Realistically, I teach what is formally written for the schools, and that's it.



dunc said:


> On the newaza - I think you’re making the point that Hatsumi doesn’t understand newaza, but still teaches it and this is analogous to what he does in other areas. Reinforcing your point that, in your view, he hasn’t got a clue about sword or presumably other similarly ”old school” things. And presumably that you know better
> He is a 4th dan in Kodokan Judo and he learnt his trade during the 60s. There is plenty of newaza in that education system
> Again, as someone with some newaza  experience myself, my assessment is that the principles and structure of the base technique is OK. eg If person in mount‘s head is to one side (albeit easily achieved by Hatsumi with a bit of pain etc) then control an arm and bridge and roll in that direction



Not quite... what we're saying is that the demonstration shows a lack of appreciation for much of the dynamics that exist in ne-waza... now, I know Hatsumi's judo background, but it's not really present in that clip... I think Hanzou's point is not that the idea of a bridge-and-roll is not valid, it's that the execution (from both sides, really... this isn't just Hatsumi here, but he isn't helped by his uke not knowing what they're doing... and it comes back to him in that, really, he should have been able to get them able to "attack" properly) is largely ineffective, and, for someone who has, what, 70+ years of training, including a Yondan in judo, should have a more solid demonstration on the principles and technical execution. After all, if the success relies on a badly positioned attacker, and then has to be explained, is it really a good example?

Now, Hanzou just picked the ground work clip because that's what he focuses on, so that's understandable... you have a BJJ background as well, as do I, so we can all see the same things... I'm curious if you can see many issues in the Takagi Yoshin Ryu video I posted above... is there anything in there (speaking particularly of Hatsumi's demonstrations) that you'd be critical of? Or is it all fine to your eyes? Either answer is fine, of course... I'm just a bit curious.


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## Steve (Dec 21, 2021)

Without getting into this two much, a couple of quick observations.  First, you're getting on @dunc for his observations, which you correct to perceptions.  You also make a very big deal about the circumspect nature of the Japanese.  And then you asset (okay, assert) that you are sharing observations that you somehow gleaned secondhand (at best) from OTHER people who have observed... and then shared with you directly?  That doesn't sound like "observation."  It sounds like hearsay and gossip.

Lastly... you now have a "BJJ background?"  Come on.  Boxing, and now BJJ.  When are you going to make your MMA debut?


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## Hanzou (Dec 21, 2021)

dunc said:


> Again, as someone with some newaza  experience myself, my assessment is that the principles and structure of the base technique is OK. eg If person in mount‘s head is to one side (albeit easily achieved by Hatsumi with a bit of pain etc) then control an arm and bridge and roll in that direction



Eh..... I would very much like to know what type of pain application one could use to "easily" make someone in mount become a limp noodle to the point where you can just roll over and they'll roll with you. Also I take issue with the idea that he was bridging. Yeah, I saw the subtitle where it said "bridge the body", but that guy wasn't bridging. He especially wasn't bridging enough to get his much larger person off of him. There was no trapping of the arm and foot/leg on the side you're rolling to either. You trap the arm and leg/foot in order to stop your opponent from basing out and stopping the roll. The trapping of the arm requires a 2 on 1 because you're in an inferior position. Not only did he improperly trap the hand, his partner purposely tucked his leg in as Hatsumi was rolling in order to assist in the escape.

I also need to stress the sheer silliness of what happens after the roll/escape. What you're supposed to do is roll into their guard. You're not supposed to roll to the point where you're both on your side and start hitting each other like grade school kids. In reality, that becomes a scramble, and if you're dealing with a stronger/more aggressive opponent, you're going to lose that scramble.

And that's just from the first 10 seconds. So yeah, I'm forced to disagree with the notion that any proper principles were taught here. I also take strong issue with the way he just flops down before each technique, as if being on the bottom of mount is no big deal, and is easy to escape from. Legs and arms flat, hips not engaged, elbows and hands not up. If you do something like that when someone is on top of you, your face is going to be turned into hamburger with a side of scrambled brains.


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## dunc (Dec 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Eh..... I would very much like to know what type of pain application one could use to "easily" make someone in mount become a limp noodle to the point where you can just roll over and they'll roll with you. Also I take issue with the idea that he was bridging. Yeah, I saw the subtitle where it said "bridge the body", but that guy wasn't bridging. He especially wasn't bridging enough to get his much larger person off of him. There was no trapping of the arm and foot/leg on the side you're rolling to either. You trap the arm and leg/foot in order to stop your opponent from basing out and stopping the roll. The trapping of the arm requires a 2 on 1 because you're in an inferior position. Not only did he improperly trap the hand, his partner purposely tucked his leg in as Hatsumi was rolling in order to assist in the escape.
> 
> I also need to stress the sheer silliness of what happens after the roll/escape. What you're supposed to do is roll into their guard. You're not supposed to roll to the point where you're both on your side and start hitting each other like grade school kids. In reality, that becomes a scramble, and if you're dealing with a stronger/more aggressive opponent, you're going to lose that scramble.
> 
> And that's just from the first 10 seconds. So yeah, I'm forced to disagree with the notion that any proper principles were taught here. I also take strong issue with the way he just flops down before each technique, as if being on the bottom of mount is no big deal, and is easy to escape from. Legs and arms flat, hips not engaged, elbows and hands not up. If you do something like that when someone is on top of you, your face is going to be turned into hamburger with a side of scrambled brains.


Yeah I don't want to over play the value of that clip.....
As I said he does bridge and roll and he's controlling the hand with a (painful) thumb lock, but he doesn't need to move much because his opponent is so off balance and doesn't have a clue

All Hatsumi does is work with what he's given by his opponent minimising what he needs to do to beat them. He never has a plan other than to confuse his opponent early and capitalise on any mistakes. This is his method

Rightly or wrongly, he rarely corrects people directly which means that his attackers continue to make a lot of mistakes and give him an easy time. He's also a showman and enjoys playing around with ideas, which by its nature is a bit hit and miss
This dynamic is, in my view, what leads to a lot of his students doing any old crap and thinking that it'll work under pressure against someone who make less or smaller mistakes....

Personally I wish more people in the Bujinkan realised this. There is huge value in the method, but Hatsumi is only continuing to practice this method and keeping going in his 80s (now 90s) by being extremely economical with his movements
To really learn the foundational movements you needed to go to certain members of his next generation students, but of course very few people did that preferring to "be the student of the Main Man" instead


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## Hanzou (Dec 21, 2021)

dunc said:


> Yeah I don't want to over play the value of that clip.....
> As I said he does bridge and roll and he's controlling the hand with a (painful) thumb lock, but he doesn't need to move much because his opponent is so off balance and doesn't have a clue



The beauty of grappling is that theory is rather easy to apply in a safe manner. I would invite you to try that technique on a partner. Have them be on top of you and have them attack you as they believe an untrained attacker would attack someone. Don't tell them what you're trying to do, just let them go in, throwing strikes to your head and face, or choke you or whatever. Maybe you want to wear a pads and a mouthpiece to get a bigger sense of realism.

Try to get a thumb lock off and get them to tap while they're in the mount, then try to get them off balance to the point where you can simply roll them over like Hatsumi did. If you can pull that off, I would be quite impressed.


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## dunc (Dec 21, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> The beauty of grappling is that theory is rather easy to apply in a safe manner. I would invite you to try that technique on a partner. Have them be on top of you and have them attack you as they believe an untrained attacker would attack someone. Don't tell them what you're trying to do, just let them go in, throwing strikes to your head and face, or choke you or whatever. Maybe you want to wear a pads and a mouthpiece to get a bigger sense of realism.
> 
> Try to get a thumb lock off and get them to tap while they're in the mount, then try to get them off balance to the point where you can simply roll them over like Hatsumi did. If you can pull that off, I would be quite impressed.


The first one from the choke is doable. I’ve experimented with augmenting the basics with things like the thumb locks and they work really well as multipliers & balance disruptors. They are relatively easy to get from certain collar grips and combined with basic movements like bridge and roll they work excellently
With more experienced partners you need more defence and bigger movements. As I said earlier, he goes with what he’s given and minimises the effort
Things like thumb locks are not taps from inferior positions and Hatsumi doesn’t show them as that either
I’ll try to remember to video in the New Year

The punching ones, I’m not such a fan of as they rely on a very straight punch


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## Yamabushii (Dec 30, 2021)

Steve said:


> In the 80s, I definitely wanted to be a ninja.  I settled for Wing Chun, because that's the school that was nearby.  But if I had found a ninja school, i would definitely have signed up.
> 
> To be clear... this kind of ninja.  I loved the show "The Master' with Lee Van Cleef:


That's hilarious. I went looking for Wing Chun but only found a Ninjutsu school nearby instead. I didn't even know what it was at the time.


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## Yamabushii (Dec 30, 2021)

Hanzou said:


> Aren't we at the point now where Ninjutsu practitioners don't even call themselves Ninjutsu practitioners or "Ninja" anymore?
> 
> That said, I see nothing wrong with what the OP is saying. A lot of "Ninjutsu" being peddled around (especially during the "Ninja craze" of the 80s and 90s) was simply a marketing gimmick.


This. I stopped telling the public I teach "Ninjutsu" or "Ninpo". Anytime someone asks me what we teach, I say Jujutsu because that's the truth. The overwhelming majority of what we teach is Jujutsu. I now tend to keep most of the Ninjutsu-related stuff for special classes/workshops/seminars, but always tell my students it's mostly strategy contrary to what the public tends to believe. I keep the name "Ninja" in my school because that's just a trendy name to use in general.


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## _Simon_ (Dec 30, 2021)

Yamabushii said:


> This. I stopped telling the public I teach "Ninjutsu" or "Ninpo". Anytime someone asks me what we teach, I say Jujutsu because that's the truth. The overwhelming majority of what we teach is Jujutsu. I now tend to keep most of the Ninjutsu-related stuff for special classes/workshops/seminars, but always tell my students it's mostly strategy contrary to what the public tends to believe. I keep the name "Ninja" in my school because that's just a trendy name to use in general.


Awesome! You even cloak the very name Ninjitsu and keep it secret, like a true ninja!


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2021)

dunc said:


> Again, as someone with some newaza experience myself, my assessment is that the principles and structure of the base technique is OK. eg If person in mount‘s head is to one side (albeit easily achieved by Hatsumi with a bit of pain etc) then control an arm and bridge and roll in that direction






No. That technique is not correct at any level where you should be showing that to anyone.

You are describing a white belt teaching white belts dilemma.

So the principles are not ok. And I don't see how that would work.

So this is about master Wong. But basically the same idea.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2021)

dunc said:


> As I said he does bridge and roll and he's controlling the hand with a (painful) thumb lock, but he doesn't need to move much because his opponent is so off balance and doesn't have a clue


 Is the thumb more painful than being elbowed?


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 31, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Is the thumb more painful than being elbowed?


Sometimes, yes, depending on how it's applied. There is a pressure point behind the corner of the jaw. I use it a lot. A whole lot. And pushing on it has never failed to turn the persons head. Now, admittedly, if the other person is on top, they may be able to pull back and reduce the pressure. But having the person on top of you moving away instead of into you isn't a bad thing.
There's no one size fits all answer. But pressure on the right spot can absolutely be effective.


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## Unkogami (Dec 31, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> .... pressure on the right spot can absolutely be effective.


There are many such places on the body, but counting on that for compliance is a mistake. They should be used to cause reactions.


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## drop bear (Dec 31, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sometimes, yes, depending on how it's applied. There is a pressure point behind the corner of the jaw. I use it a lot. A whole lot. And pushing on it has never failed to turn the persons head. Now, admittedly, if the other person is on top, they may be able to pull back and reduce the pressure. But having the person on top of you moving away instead of into you isn't a bad thing.
> There's no one size fits all answer. But pressure on the right spot can absolutely be effective.



They can for example place their fingers in your jaw. And dig that in with their entire body weight and just see who cracks first.


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## dunc (Jan 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. That technique is not correct at any level where you should be showing that to anyone.
> 
> You are describing a white belt teaching white belts dilemma.
> 
> ...


Yeah upon reflection I have to agree with this


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## dunc (Jan 1, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Is the thumb more painful than being elbowed?


It’s excruciating and like any small joint lock it forces a reaction
Although you have to contend with the possibility that you just break the joint without getting a more structural response so they work best as augmentors (is that a word?) to a broader, more structural technique
Being elbowed or punched is a different kind of thing in that it is more structural in nature (ie it moves your opponent in its own right) with the added benefit of damage and pain
The trade off is strikes like elbows require more force to be effective, whereas small joint locks don’t require much effort


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## Dirty Dog (Jan 1, 2022)

Unkogami said:


> There are many such places on the body, but counting on that for compliance is a mistake. They should be used to cause reactions.


I'm always baffled by the habit some people have of responding to things nobody said.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2022)

dunc said:


> It’s excruciating and like any small joint lock it forces a reaction
> Although you have to contend with the possibility that you just break the joint without getting a more structural response so they work best as augmentors (is that a word?) to a broader, more structural technique
> Being elbowed or punched is a different kind of thing in that it is more structural in nature (ie it moves your opponent in its own right) with the added benefit of damage and pain
> The trade off is strikes like elbows require more force to be effective, whereas small joint locks don’t require much effort



The reason I mentioned elbows is there is a good chance you can roll it over and belt a guy from a hand grab. Even a painful thumb grab.


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## drop bear (Jan 1, 2022)

dunc said:


> Yeah upon reflection I have to agree with this


By the way. The extra details of that ramsey dewey upa escape is a straight up game changer. And if you are slick. You can pull off versions of that from side control, half guard and kasegetami.

And at worst opens them up to try other escapes.

So that good upa concept is self defence gold.

Kasegetami escape.


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## dunc (Jan 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> The reason I mentioned elbows is there is a good chance you can roll it over and belt a guy from a hand grab. Even a painful thumb grab.


Yeah I think after the turn over this &/or standing are my "go tos" - I like to use a post (eg amassa pao choke or no gi alternatives) when I stand as it keeps them busy and I find it works better against bigger folk (just got to defend arm bars which is straightforward)
FWIW I don't find the groin to be a viable target until you have opened guard and got standing, you also have to control the legs to prevent up kicks when doing this


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## Ebrahim (Jan 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I still want to be a ninja.
> 
> There has to be a way...


Don't worry!! You already are a NINJA


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## Oily Dragon (Jan 3, 2022)

Ebrahim said:


> Don't worry!! You already are a NINJA


I've barely mastered more than a handful of the elements required to become the Golden Ninja Warrior.

Wood, water, fire, and earth, maybe.


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## Kaori (Sep 26, 2022)

Chris Parker said:


> It is interesting to note, however, that in no older records are there any mention of Kumogakure Ryu coming via Toda to Takamatsu... nor of Takamatsu mentioning it that I have found... for instance, there is no mention of it in Andy Adams' "Ninja: The Invisible Assassins", one of the earliest properly researched books in English from the 60's... although most of the other schools are


Yes, and in the May 1961 "Argosy" magazine article Hatsumi is said to be "the eighteenth successor of the Iga School Ninjitsu [sic], and the thirty-fourth successor of the Togakure School Ninjitsu." He also says at the time that he has no intention of popularizing the art...

Tanemura teaches a form of Iga Ryu Ninpo, based on studying a scroll, but doesn't claim to be soke of that ryu. It's also interesting that official Genbukan documentation on the schools acknowledge that Takamatsu basically tried to reconstruct, or resurrect and revitalize, a form of Kukishin-ryu Ninjutsu. The Togakure Ryu history overview says:

"After the Second World War, Takamatsu started to re-create the Ninjutsu part of [Kuki] Tenshin Hyoho, but stopped and then made Togakure Ryu Ninpo open to the public. He taught this system to some of his students."

The Kumogakure doc is even more explicit:

"After WWII, Takamatsu Toshitsugu considered applying the Ryūsen scroll and others as the foundation for the Ninjutsu volume within the Kuki Shinden Tenshin Hyōhen tradition, but due to certain challenges he terminated this endeavor, and openly transmitted these to his disciples as Togakure-ryū Ninpo and Kumogakure-ryū Ninpo."

It goes on to say that Tanemura has gone on to transform Kumogakure into an actual coherent ryu, based on synthesizing a heck of a lot of kuden (he must have an amazing memory...):

"As for the content of Kumogakure ryū, because its foundation stems from Gikan-ryū, Koto-ryū, Gyokko-ryū and Togakure-ryū, there is no organized system of techniques. Instead, there are only the oral secret transmission 'Ippon Sugi, Kamayari, Onibi, Metsubushi,' and 'Ushirozeme, Urazeme' of Biken (Secret Sword). The Tanemura lineage (Tanemura-Ha) of Kumogakure-ryū concretely systematizes this ryūha based on Takamatsu Toshitsugu’s own notes of techniques from the highest teachings (goku’i) of Gyokko-ryū Kosshi-jutsu manuals densho (9 Ken and 3 Keri, Taihen Kamae-Kata 9, Kihon-Gata 9), and Ueno Takashi’s line teachings of the high-level secret Atekomi Sappō (Deadly Striking Methods) (Shoden 12, Chuden 12, Okuden 12, Menkyo and Kaiden Kuden many), which is using hidden weapons (Kakushi, Kakute). This knowledge has been received through a knowledge exchange with Kaminaga Shigemi who received it from Ueno Takashi and received from Kobayashi Hōshō also. Finally, the transmissions of Ueno Takashi (Chōsui) and Kobayashi Masao (Hōshō) of the 'Iga ryū Ninpo Gokuhi no Maki' (176 Kudens), as well as Sato Kinbei’s 'Ninjutsu Heihō Tora no Maki' (56 Kudens), and Ueno-Kobayashi’s secret transmission book of 'Hō-jutsu' (19 and 13 Kudens) will be taught together. Moreover, there is also the accompanying Ueno house-lineage tradition (Tomoke/Banke line of Ninja)."

So if the Takamatsuden ninjutsu seems of questionable provenance, there's always Banke Shinobinoden and the Iga Museum's new "Nindo" schools for the contemporary would-be ninja, which, in light of the competition, is probably as good as contemporary ninjutsu studies get.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 26, 2022)

I think mainly thanks to Hollywood Nin -Jutsu is laughed at. I´m a Ninja Killer 
Is there a reason for the purple hair??


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## Kaori (Sep 26, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I think mainly thanks to Hollywood Nin -Jutsu is laughed at. I´m a Ninja Killer
> Is there a reason for the purple hair??


It's cultural:


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 26, 2022)

Kaori said:


> It's cultural:


OK .. just a bit strange.


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## Hanzou (Oct 10, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No. That technique is not correct at any level where you should be showing that to anyone.
> 
> You are describing a white belt teaching white belts dilemma.
> 
> ...



That Master Wong vid is disgusting.


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