# "The Arrest & Death of Nathaniel Jones"



## Karazenpo (Dec 2, 2003)

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Many of you have probably seen the tape of the arrest of this man.   (Cincinnatti, Ohio).  However, it also has been shown on several networks in a 'cut' or edited manner most probably to draw attention or ratings to that particular network's news channel to stay tuned for the full story, in my opinion anyway.   Please view the film in its entirety before giving your viewpoint. The begining shows a 350+ pound African American male charging and punching a police officer who was attempting to calm him down. What most are initially seeing is officers' reactions to this. During the assault on the officer Mr. Jones is clearly heard yelling racial slurs toward the officer while beginning his attack. I only mention this to set the tone of his mental condition and intent toward the officer. Please notice the officer backing up as Mr. Jones approaches and then charges at him in an severely agitated manner. You will also hear officers repeatedly giving him commands to put his hands behind him. Batons were used by police in an attempt to get him to submit. Also bear in mind that trace amounts of "Angel Dust" (PCP-a "horse" tranquilizer) and cocaine were found in his system. Also bear in mind this man was an EDP (emotionally disturbed person). I have seen a pair of police handcuffs (at an Officer Survival seminar) that had marks on them like vice grip pliers and the single strand portions were all twisted. What is significant about this is that they were "BITTEN" off  by an EDP. I believe, from what I heard so far, the baton blows were not used to the head area with most to the extremities of the body and other justifiable striking areas. Now, I could stand corrected on that as the investigation unfolds but that was the latest I have as of this posting. Please take everything I have written into consideration when voicing your opinion and please put yourself in the postion of the police officers at the scene and also remember, more often than not an EDP will eventually go for the police officer's gun and they have the strenght to rip it right from the holster. It took a total of six police officers to take him in. The man, unfortunately, died while in police custody. They are currently awaiting an autopsy for the exact cause of death. However, some are speculating, and I admit it is speculation that his actions, obesity and drug use may have brought on a heart attack.  Again, please weigh up everything and put yourself there, at the scene, and remember -these officers are not neccessarily skilled martial artists either.    What say you?


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## Karazenpo (Dec 2, 2003)

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Here's the story:

Beating case has drug link 


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Autopsy finds cocaine, PCP 

By Howard Wilkinson
The Cincinnati Enquirer


The 41-year-old Northside man who died early Sunday after a violent videotaped fight with Cincinnati police had cocaine and PCP in his system, the Hamilton County coroner said Monday. 

VIDEO 


WCPO Video  
Dr. Carl Parrott said the drugs are stimulants sometimes linked to "bizarre and violently aggressive behavior." 

The widely played videotape showed Nathaniel Jones lunging at police officers and hitting them as they ordered him to stop. 

It took six officers repeatedly wielding metal batons to bring the 350-pound man down in a White Castle restaurant parking lot in North Avondale. He died shortly thereafter. 

For police, discovery of cocaine and PCP - also known as "angel dust'' - in his system explains much. 


Six Cincinnati police officers have been placed on administrative leave following the death of Nathaniel Jones Sunday. They are from top left, Guy Abrams, James Pike, Joehonny Reese, Jay Johnstone, Baron Osterman and Thomas Slade. 
(AP photo)

"It certainly clears up in our minds why he was acting the way he was," said Capt. Vincent Demasi, acting commander of the investigations bureau. He said the videotape "shows us our officers were acting within their training. He was an extremely violent individual who was suffering extensively from the effects of these drugs." 

Jones' death set off an unwanted replay of the agony and anger that wrenched Cincinnati 2 1/2 years ago, when a police officer shot an unarmed black man in a dark alley. The shooting touched off three nights of street riots and revealed the depth of the city's racial divisions. 

Monday, as the official investigations into what happened to Jones and why began to take shape, some activists again charged Cincinnati police with targeting blacks. Some called for the police chief's dismissal. 

"If proper police procedure means that you can use that kind of force to clobber people who are clearly disarmed, there is something wrong," said Calvert Smith, president of the Cincinnati chapter of the NAACP. 

Mayor Charlie Luken defended the actions of the police. 

"It appears that the police responded appropriately and consistent with their training," Luken said. "They'd been attacked with a deadly weapon - a 400-pound man." 


Click to view an Acrobat PDF file (168k) showing a detailed timeline of the police encounter with Nathaniel Jones. 
(Randy Mazzola infographic)

Jeff Thompson, Jones' roommate and close friend, defended him Monday, saying the father of two was not violent. 

"I can't really say what made him do what he did, but what I'm concerned about is that we didn't see what happened before the tape started rolling and what happened after it stopped," Thompson said. 

Jones' case was eerily similar to the death of Roger Owensby Jr., who died while Cincinnati police officers tried to handcuff him during a struggle in 2000. 

Smith and other activists said the latest death shows little has changed in police use-of-force policies, despite the historic police reform settlement the city made with the Justice Department after the riots and which is monitored by federal courts. 


Dr. Calvert Smith, president of the Cincinnati Branch of the NAACP, holds a press conference Monday. 
(Steven M. Herppich photo)

The NAACP will conduct its own investigation into the death, which, so far, has resulted in six Cincinnati police officers being placed on administrative leave, a routine procedure in such cases. 

But it was clear Monday that it would take some time for investigators to piece together exactly what happened and why. 

The coroner could not yet issue a ruling on the cause of death, saying he was still gathering toxicology information, reviewing reports from medical responders and police, and examining the graphic videotape of Jones' confrontation with police. 

Parrott said Jones had a "markedly enlarged heart, consistent with hypertensive heart disease." He also said Jones had linear bruises on his right calf, right thigh, right buttock and right flank. 

Cecil Thomas, director of the Cincinnati Human Relations Commission, urged people to look at the entire chain of events - from beginning to end. 

"If you look at the whole tape, what you see is the officer telling (Jones) to stay back,'' said Thomas, a former city police officer. "What that's saying to me as a former officer is that they're trying to give him some space. The last thing you want to do is get into a physical, hand-to-hand confrontation. But then the individual clearly attacked the officer.'' 

The bruises found on the calf, thigh and buttocks of Jones' right side - presumably caused by the repeated blows from police officers' batons - show no evidence of causing damage to Jones' internal organs, the coroner's preliminary report said. 

Chain of events 

Jones' violent confrontation with police unfolded about 6 a.m. Sunday in front of the White Castle restaurant on West Mitchell Avenue in North Avondale. 

A restaurant employee called 911 to report a man had passed out in the grass nearby. Firefighters who responded said the man was awake but "becoming a nuisance." They asked for police help. 

When the 5-foot, 9-inch, 350-pound suspect attacked the first two officers on the scene, back-up officers were called and, soon, six officers were struggling to handcuff the man, striking him repeatedly with batons, the videotape shows. 

When officers got Jones on his stomach and rolled him over, they realized he needed medical help. 

He died within minutes of reaching University Hospital. 

Jones, said Thompson, suffered from narcolepsy - a sleep disorder that can cause patients to drop off into unconsciousness without notice. That condition, Thompson said, might have been what caused Jones to pass out at the White Castle. 

Monday, the Coalition for a Just Cincinnati - the group that organized a boycott of downtown Cincinnati after the April 2001 riots - demanded that Luken fire Police Chief Thomas Streicher because of how officers handled the confrontation. 

Streicher is out of town, but Luken rejected that demand Monday and expressed support for the officers. 

Said the mayor: "The tape is very clear and very audible. You can hear what people say to each other. At one point in the tape, it's obvious that they're trying very hard not to hit (Jones) in the head." 

There are three investigations into the death under way - one by the Citizen Complaint Authority, which was created by the 2002 collaborative agreement; another by police homicide detectives and a third by the police department's internal investigations section. 

Question about departure 

One question Luken had Monday was why personnel from Cincinnati Fire Department Rescue Company 38 in Winton Place briefly left the scene Sunday morning. 

Fire Chief Robert Wright said he can't answer that until he talks to the four-man EMS crew that initially arrived at the White Castle after a report of a unconscious man in the parking lot, then left the scene while police tackled Jones. 

"I don't know what they were thinking. I don't know how they saw this," Wright said. "Maybe they saw this guy handcuffed and thought, 'It's under control.'" 

The fire chief said he doubts those minutes would have made a difference. 

"I don't have the benefit of the coroner's report. I wasn't there, but I just don't think that would have changed anything. He was a flatline when our guys got there." 

By 6:04 a.m., the officers are seen on the tape trying to revive Jones. 

"Sir! Sir!" one officer shouted. 

"I don't see him breathing," another said. 

The paramedics returned at 6:05 and begin CPR within a minute of their arrival. Jones was sped by ambulance to University Hospital, but died within minutes of arriving at the emergency room. 

--- 

Kevin Aldridge, Dan Horn and Gregory Korte contributed. E-mail hwilkinson@enquirer.com 





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## MisterMike (Dec 2, 2003)

I think the officers were justified in their course of actions to restrain the person. In fact, I think he is lucky to have lived as long as he did. While I'm no expert on when police should use deadly force, I know when I would have. 

I'm sure Jesse Jackson will be at the funeral.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 2, 2003)

When person is acting like that a simple net or perhaps a high speen projectile sandbag would have done the trick but as you have stated deadly force was the prefered method and that is exactly what they got, a death. A lot of deaths occur because you got the guy on his stomach with his arms behind his back but... oh well. What's that Rush Limbah calls those people? "Just another dead doper". As Rush will be someday


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 2, 2003)

Not takeing sides on this but what I aw was police beating the liveing hell out of some one. I saw one officer trying to put the mans ams behind his back and failing missably . Lack of knowlege on how to use the batton to put  the arms behind the back was evident. The man seemd to be on the ground at one point but the beating seemd to continue. Was he under control at that time , I have no idea, but it looked like he might have been.
I know that many police have only the most basic idea of how to use their battons for pinning , controling, and rendering their suspect accsessable to cuffing. 
Im not takeing the dead mans side for police are always in a dangerous posistion when dealing with anyone, I just think better training in the use of the batton might have helped.


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## theletch1 (Dec 2, 2003)

Is a big game net or high speed bean bag shot gun standard issue for all police in that area?  I don't think a bean bag, even fired from a 12 ga. would have stopped the guy.  My take on this is that the officers present did everything by their training and their attacker still died.  The reports indicate that only non-lethal areas where targets of the batons.  What were the officers to do when attacked by a man who was much larger than them, intent on doing them harm and bouyed by the effects of narcotics?  This is and will continue to be a divisive subject on both a racial basis and on what seems to be becoming an inherent dislike of police officers in this country.  If the autopsy shows that it was a blow from a baton that killed the man then by all means, punish the officers involved.  If, however, the autopsy shows that he died as a result of complications related to his previous ailments and drug use then this should be seen as a wake up call for what our officers face during their rounds.


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 2, 2003)

Mybe the whole beating a guy to death with a baton thing just doesn't look good on TV. I know maybe we should pass laws requiring video of police brutality to be illeagle to show on TV to eliminate rioting. You know like an Ashcroft thing. Good, honest, Godfearing Christian citizens won't mind.


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## Brian King (Dec 2, 2003)

> When person is acting like that a simple net or perhaps a high speen projectile sandbag would have done the trick but as you have stated deadly force was the prefered method and that is exactly what they got, a death


 
The use of nets has been deemed illegal for many years now. It seems it is degrading to the victim to be treated like a common animal. Beanbags might have worked, against someone who feels pain. When would you suggest that he should have been shot with one? Perhaps when first encountered (instead of trying to calm him down with verbalization) or perhaps after he assaulted the police officer and is now on the offensive? Of course at that range bean bags will break bones and could cause lethal injury. Perhaps a taser could have been used, of course none of the officers present had access to such expensive toys.

As to state that *deadly force was the preferred  method and that is exactly what they got, a death*  is just ignorant.  Learn the use of force continuum that police have to follow. A baton is not lethal force. It is used to stop an attack on the officer (usually by striking the legs and knee area of the attacker and/or his arms and hands if he is punching or grabbing)





> Jones had linear bruises on his right calf, right thigh, right buttock and right flank.


   Hey TOD ever get a bruise on your leg? Did it kill you?  To use deadly force people need feel endangered. But feeling endangered is not enough. The person threatening you must also have the ability to do you harm but even that is not enough, they must also have the opportunity to do you harm. Notice I said do you harm. You do not have to wait until you are beaten almost to death the minute that you are losing the conflict you can escalate up the force continuum. Now did the 350 pound drug enraged EDP have the ability to harm them, did he have the opportunity to harm them, where they in jeopardy? If yes to these they could have used deadly force. Uh TOD that means shooting the attacker until he ends the attack.



> Lack of knowlege on how to use the batton to put the arms behind the back was evident.



It is against most departmental policies to use a baton as a pain compliance tool. It has no gauges on it to determine the amount of force being used. If used to pry or lock arms (or legs or neck or anything else) the department is likely to be sued as an excessive force issue. Most departments are left with using the batons to make the person attacking comply with the verbal orders being given. (in layman terms hit them till they give up.) The batons are metal (likely ASP batons) expandable and hollow. They are made from aluminum (very light weight) and are designed to give blunt trauma to the area being hit without breaking bones or causing any permanent injury. They cause dysfunction not injury. Most police are trained to hit the subject charging them on the leg(s) until they go down and become compliant. That means that they put their arms behind their back, cross their legs, turn their head that sort of stuff. Yelling I give up while still resisting and not complying does not count.

The loss of life is always regrettable. This man in his physical condition, with the chemicals he put into his body mixing with the natural chemicals that your own body produces during combat is a suicide waiting for the rope. He could have ended the conflict anytime he wanted to by just complying with the officers commands. He didnt want to and judging by the tape had he been able to continue the attack he would have. I am sorry that his children have no father tonight. I would be even sorrier if any of the officers children lost their parents due to this mans behavior and choices.  

See you on the mat soon
Friends
Brian


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## Karazenpo (Dec 3, 2003)

From a veteran police officer perspective who also served as a member of the drug unit:

A 150 pound man drugged out on a 'horse tranquilizer' (PCP), absolute no feeling of pain, not to mention being an EDP (emotionally disturbed person-doctors have reported the strength of these individuals at times can be of ten men-fact). I have a picture of a pair of handcuffs with what appears to be vice grip plier marks and the single strands of the cuffs were all twisted. They were bit off, yes bit off by an average built EDP with no drugs in his system-this is a documented case-not a fairy tale! Back to my example, a 150 pound strung out EDP can be police offciers' worst nightmare to bring under control. They would have a better shot taking in Mike Tyson. As another poster said the baton is basically taught for striking with very limited controlling and do you know why? because the controlling techniques, no matter how skilled you are do not fair that well in these situations and they get the officer hurt. The bulk of baton training today emphasizes striking. You really have to experience 'rock'n & roll'n with someone of this nature, size and mental condition. It is unbelievable! I knew a guy who was about his size that was heavy into coke. He was shot by another dealer while sitting in his car with a 9 mm thirteen times, all hits, he managed to struggle the gun from his assailant and fired the final round left at him. The guy shot 13 times-survived but walks with a limp to this day! This is documented. I knew personally of some of the parties involved for it happened in my area. My firend had a guy strung out on PCP back in the 70's from a neighboring town P.D. My friend was a tough kid about 6'5" and tilted the scales at around 250. His partner was about 6', 200 and had a reputation as a tough street fighter.  The arrestee was a thinly built 160. The call was a man walking nude holding a cat. "No kidd'n, you think I could make this up!, lol. They stopped got out of the cruiser and the guy throws the cat in their face and runs. He breaks into a woman's house, sits down and starts watching a basketball game on tv. The two cops broke the guys arm, collar bone, ribs, jaw and I believe his knee cap. They did $13,000 damage to the lady's house. Again-documented!
One more, the current head of the training division for the Massachusetts Criminal Justice Training Council at the time was working for a big college police department. He was also an extremely talented martial artist, black belt, and PR-24 intermediate instructor (side-handled baton) in other words he certified baton instructors for the state. At a sporting event a college football player (over 6' and 200) was drunk and caused a disturbance. The cop went to arrest him but this guy decides to fight him. The officer used a two-handed power swing to his knee cap during the struggle. (There were two officers involved). The guy collapses but then gets back up a swings at the officer. The cop pounces on him and takes him back to the ground and they manage to cuff him after a struggle.  One officer rode in the back seat with him. He looks down (the guy had shorts on) and his kneecap was 'concaved' in. He had to be flown to another hosptial for special surgery. There was a lawsuit and settlement. The man's blood alcohol content was .30!!!!!!! There are many more stories but I think I've made my point. I'm sure many on this forum have their own true stories of similiar events! It's one of those situations you have to be there and experience it to be able to judge it.  Respectfully submitted,


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brian _
> *The use of nets has been deemed illegal for many years now. It seems it is degrading to the victim to be treated like a common animal. Beanbags might have worked, against someone who feels pain. When would you suggest that he should have been shot with one? Perhaps when first encountered (instead of trying to calm him down with verbalization) or perhaps after he assaulted the police officer and is now on the offensive? Of course at that range bean bags will break bones and could cause lethal injury. Perhaps a taser could have been used, of course none of the officers present had access to such expensive toys.
> 
> As to state that deadly force was the preferred  method and that is exactly what they got, a death  is just ignorant.  Learn the use of force continuum that police have to follow. A baton is not lethal force. It is used to stop an attack on the officer (usually by striking the legs and knee area of the attacker and/or his arms and hands if he is punching or grabbing)   Hey TOD ever get a bruise on your leg? Did it kill you?  To use deadly force people need feel endangered. But feeling endangered is not enough. The person threatening you must also have the ability to do you harm but even that is not enough, they must also have the opportunity to do you harm. Notice I said do you harm. You do not have to wait until you are beaten almost to death the minute that you are losing the conflict you can escalate up the force continuum. Now did the 350 pound drug enraged EDP have the ability to harm them, did he have the opportunity to harm them, where they in jeopardy? If yes to these they could have used deadly force. Uh TOD that means shooting the attacker...
> ...


Oh Brian, I said what killed him was putiing a 350 pound man on his stomach with his arms behind his back. The police know this, it happens all the time, they might as well have shot him in the head.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 3, 2003)

The death has just been listed as a homocide.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 3, 2003)

A couple of things:

First to have it lsited as a homocide is not an issue in my book. I know an officer that was involved in a shooting and was on suspension as per procedure and was under investiagtion of homocide. Not sure of the state or local laws or policies, so I could be wrong.

I also echo that people on drugs have no idea of pain. I helped a police officer with a bad guy who was on drugs.  This guy bit the police officer three times, I personally peeled his fingers off of the holster and gun numerous times as all three of us were rolling around. I tried a lock on him and had my weight on top of him. He just lifted his arm, broke his wrist and said FU and continues to fight. Funny thing is the officer went to call for back up in the middle of the fight, and I just rolled over on my back and had him grabbed while he was facing up. I thought if he saw the sky he would not think he was trapped. He relaxed for a couple of seconds, long enough for the officer to call for back up. Then we were back on again.

It is not a good situation for anyone involved.


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## dearnis.com (Dec 3, 2003)

A few things...
First "beanbag" rounds are not and never will be a cure-all.  Also, there was no possibility of deploying these rounds in this situation (I can elaborate if needed).
PERHAPS a taser would have been an option, but with the man's heart condition the outcome may have been no different.

The next comment is not intended to be a flame, but....
if you have never had the experience of a doped-up, violent offender laughing off your best shots you may not have the full perspective needed to evaluate this incident.  

Both PCP and cocaine can and do bring out this type of behavior; apparently this subject had injested both.  

Remember, homicide is only the first half of the ruling; they nust need to hand "justifiable" on the front.

Chad


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

I guess I'll feild an opinion on this one. The guy made the first move on the cops. This means he is dangerous, something that most cops I have ever met assume of everyone all the time, and should be (generally are) prepared to deal with in an assertive not aggressive way. I think that he was dangerous until he hit the ground. A 350 lb. man doesn't get up easily. That is the time the cops should have stepped back to reassess(sp) how the situation had changed. This is not when you step in and beat the living snot out of him. I know that modern "non-lethals" or "less-than-lethals" like beanbags and tasers are nice, but they aren't always available and they could've still caused his heart to fail anyway. I know that the police didn't strike at targets that generally cause death or potentially fatal injuries, but they did continuously whale on a man that looked like he would have had trouble even getting up. What about some mace or OC to disorient and then let him have his little fit until he is tired. Then restrain him and call in a paddy wagon for the big boy. Its not like he's going to outrun (not exactly a sprinter) the police or steal a car (if he could fit in one) while the police are standing there. Every schoolkid used to know not to beat on a man when he is down. 

So while I think they are responsible for his death, I don't think they should be punished for his death. They did apply medical attention immediatly and tried to keep him alive. I do, however, think they used excessive force in restraining him and should be punished for that. Cinncy is already a hotbed of racial tension and the police need to be aware of this in their everyday actions. I have personally heard too many police officers gripe in personal conversations about "sensitivity" training and how the criminals are not sensitive to them, but if you continue to be insensitive in appearance and to the needs of the people they will  get "insensetive" up-side the officers' head in a riot.


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## MisterMike (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *When person is acting like that a simple net or perhaps a high speen projectile sandbag would have done the trick but as you have stated deadly force was the prefered method and that is exactly what they got, a death. A lot of deaths occur because you got the guy on his stomach with his arms behind his back but... oh well. What's that Rush Limbah calls those people? "Just another dead doper". As Rush will be someday *



No, it wasn't the preferred method but it was what he had coming for resisting. He knew his weight as well, and should have made it easier on himself.  As usuall, the libs come out with "it's everyone else's fault but their own."


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *No, it wasn't the preferred method but it was what he had coming for resisting. He knew his weight as well, and should have made it easier on himself.  As usuall, the libs come out with "it's everyone else's fault but their own." *



How could it possibly be a "lib's fault" that the police beat the hell out of a guy.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

O.C. or any of the chemical derterants aren't nearly as good as they are cracked up to be, especially on an EDP and/or drugged out subjects. As a matter of fact in Massachusetts, in O.C. training we take a hit of hit and then go on to fight two padded individuals for a minute or two just to show the officer that with the proper mindset you can still put up a hell of a fight after being hit with O.C. We have this videotaped. When OC first came out there was an incident of an obese man who took a bat to cars on Route 9 in Natick, Mass. not far from where I work. Cops came and he was throwing them around like rag dolls. They used all their OC and he still fought like an animal. They finally subdued him and he died of a heart attack while in custody. 

The man was told 16 times by police to put his hands behind his back while being struck in non-lethal areas. Which part of that didn't he understand? I have to assume he understood english since he called the officer 'white boy' and 'redneck'. In grappling you are taught it is the strength in your legs that can take you from the ground back to your feet. He certainly had strong enough legs. 

Now, for the kenpo people on this forum. Aren't you taught rapid fire speed striking to 'vulnerable' areas of the body? When critics tell you it's overkill don't you answer with something like this: "It is not overkill, we are taught to strike only the number of times it takes to subdue the opponent, we stop only when the threat has been neutralized".  Now, why too, after striking, would we want to stop and step back and let him recover so we can start all over again? We don't teach our students that. Please remember, once the cops are beaten the bad guy has full access to firearms in which he can shoot the police and kill innocent civillians. This is no theory, it has happened and has happened way too often! Cops are not trained to fight fair, they are not trained to fight by the 'Queensbury Rules', they are trained to fight to WIN. A municipality or state spends tax dollars to train and equip officers to win, not lose. 

 I believe it was 1979 in California. A police officer was sent to a call where the suspect was reported to have been 'dusted' (PCP). An absolute minimum of two officers were to be dispatched on any PCP calls. One officer arrived first and before back up arrived he was encountered by the man, average weight and height, maybe 155-165 pounds. This guy picked up a long length of heavy piping that had been laid on the side of the road for construction work and swung it at this officer. He ripped his badge off his uniform so violently that he bent the back of the badge. He ripped open the cruiser door breaking the hinges and then tore the shotgun that had been mounted in the cruiser from its locked support. The officer made his way around the cruiser with his service revolver pointed right at the suspect telling him to put the shotgun down. The suspect laid the gun on the roof of the cruiser but never took his finger from the trigger guard. Thinking the man was complying, the officer lowered his gun as he went to walk around to the suspect. At this point this guy fired the shotgun killing the cop. Back ups arrived and a German Shepherd police dog was sent after the suspect as he was fleeing. When this guy tried to shoot the dog the K-9 tore into his arm and the dog sustained repeated blows with the butt of the rifle but never backed off and kept tearing into this guy. He was finally subdued and brought to the hospital. The doctor that worked on him stated there was so much PCP in his system that he could have went through open heart surgery with no other anesthetics and felt no pain!!!!!!!!! Documented by Charles Remsberg and Dennis Anderson-Police Officer's Street Survival seminars sponsered by the Calibre Press.

Please ask any officer who has lived through a situation like that before second guessing them-it was no overkill. They did what they had to do to protect the community and go home to their families at the end of their tour of duty. Please don't begrudge  them that!  Sincerely submitted,


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 4, 2003)

Let's look at the facts here.

1)  350lb man
2)  intoxicated/under the infuence
3)  attacked police officer without provocation
4)  resisted arrest
5)  ignored orders to comply during strugle
6)  was struck with baton to non-lethal areas
7)  heart disease
8)  consumed an unknown quantity of whitecastle burgers before the altercation
9)  continued fighting until 6 officers subdued him

This guy died because he was an idiot not because the police killed him.  He didn't die from blows or strangulation.  He died because he was a big fat slob with a heart condition on drugs who tried to fight six guys in cold weather.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka wrote:
This guy died because he was an idiot not because the police killed him. He didn't die from blows or strangulation. He died because he was a big fat slob with a heart condition on drugs who tried to fight six guys in cold weather.




Allen, what I and others have tried to communicate in thousands of words on this incident-you have done in four lines! Great post!


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

Make that three lines!!!!!!!!!, lol.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 4, 2003)

Just trying to cut through the BS and speak what I think.


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## MisterMike (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *How could it possibly be a "lib's fault" that the police beat the hell out of a guy. *



"Their" referring to the attacker, not libs.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka wrote: Just trying to cut through the BS and speak what I think.


I say: You certainly do Alan! No flies on you!!!!!!!!  Wonder why some can't see it that way? ,lol. Thanks, police everywhere appreciate that kind of support. I thank you, sir! Respectfully & Sincerely submitted, "Joe"


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 4, 2003)

TOD is a lib? What's a lib?

I saw the tape last night....and two things seemed clear. 

First, this big fat putz attacked the cops. And kept attacking them. 

Second, the cops--not particularly in good shape themselves--looked as though they had no earthly idea how to use a baton. Somebody better acquainted with them might clear this up...but why the hell were they spearing away--pretty clumsily, it looked like to me--with the thing? 

Looked to me as though they didn't even know how to swing the thing with any power, let alone use the batons to tie this idiot up. Reminded me of what one of my students told me--she's a C.O. out here, and at her last refresher on the use of the baton, the "martial artist," teaching the class made everybody yell, "ki-ai," when then swung...


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## dearnis.com (Dec 4, 2003)

They responded as they were trained.....



> Looked to me as though they didn't even know how to swing the thing with any power, let alone use the batons to tie this idiot up. Reminded me of what one of my students told me--she's a C.O. out here, and at her last refresher on the use of the baton, the "martial artist," teaching the class made everybody yell, "ki-ai," when then swung...



I have been reprimanded in baton training for striking too hard, and have been taught by  ASP certified instructors that the baton is  specifically NOT a grappling or restraint device.

Please remeber folks, that what officers are taught stems from a great many sources, not always from efficiency and safety.

Chad


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## Pacificshore (Dec 4, 2003)

Hey, unless you walk in a pair of Cop boots, and know what it takes, keep your opinions based on the facts at hand, and not what should have or have not been done by the Police.  Granted there are a few bad apples out there, but there are far MANY good hard working cops out their doing a job not many are cut out to do.


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

Again, I'll say that I don't blame the officers for this guy's death. The heart condition is something that he should've thought of before he decided to get all F'ed up on any drugs, and "consume an unknown quantity of whitecastle burgers before the altercation" (that's a good one, I like it). I don't think they have the right to pummel him the way they did. As many people will tell you, law enforcment is not martial arts and there is such a thing as overkill. Hypothetical: What happens to a cop that shoots a guy with a knife, the guy drops and can't get up, but the knife is still in his hands, the cop empties the mag into him. That's not just overkill, its murder. Why stop from beating on him, um. . . because he could die. Okay, that's a cheap shot, because I already said it wasn't their fault he died, but then again maybe that's the only reason he stopped moving. When people hit me in the ribs or *** I start fighting back or at least protecting my ribs and ***, no matter who they are. If a cop hits me in the ribs and then tells me to put my hands behind my back and then hits me in the ribs again, then I ain't listening to him no more. I'm keeping my ribs from getting broken. Those cops didn't even give him the opportunity to comply, whether he would or not. I mean all I have to say to prove my point is, here we go, Rodney King. Let's not act like police brutality doesn't exist and sign up for the protect my brothers in blue newsletter. Without sounding the antithesis of Mike who said its not right to think "it's everyone else's fault but their own" let also not say "well its okay, he deserved it". 
With respect, Karazenpo stated "Cops are not trained to fight fair, they are not trained to fight by the 'Queensbury Rules', they are trained to fight to WIN. A municipality or state spends tax dollars to train and equip officers to win, not lose." I disagree, they are trained to APPREHEND criminals to stand trial in court or at least that is what they are paid for by my tax dollars, not win, whatever that term is being applied for here. Who won in this confrontation. The suspect is dead, the cops are handed another black eye in public perception and the people in the surounding communities are pissed and ready for another riot.


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## MisterMike (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by rmcrobertson _
> *TOD is a lib? What's a lib?
> 
> I saw the tape last night....and two things seemed clear.
> ...




OK - so that's what you saw. Now what is your point?

That they should have made Bruce Lee growls and twirled it more?

That you could have done a better job on the fat bastard?

or "not particularly in good shape themselves" means that since you did not approve of how they handled it they now deserve some sort of unwarranted jab at their physical characteristics (as compared to the assailant), which is as effective as saying "hey that lip ring really takes the focus off your fat behind" to the lady working the welfare counter.


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pacificshore _
> *Hey, unless you walk in a pair of Cop boots, and know what it takes, keep your opinions based on the facts at hand, and not what should have or have not been done by the Police.  Granted there are a few bad apples out there, but there are far MANY good hard working cops out their doing a job not many are cut out to do. *



Save the "if you aren't doing it keep your mouth shut" crap. It's not my job, its theirs and I'm helping pay their salary. I don't doubt there are great cops out there that do a great job, but I don't think that these are the guys. My opinion, just as yours, is one of many that shapes public policy and therefore is valid as an opinion, not a fact. Yes, there are "far many good hard working cops out their doing a job" and there are many hard working citizens that can and do catch a beating because the of the bad apples. That's why we have to vent our opinions and keep our eyes on their actions.  the worst part is that by voicing my opinion in this matter, and trying to justify a dead man that I think was undeservedly smacked around, I will be seen a cop-hater or someone who doesn't deserve police protection. This isn't the case it is just that I believe in the rights of the citizen as much as the rights of the officers.


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *Save the "if you aren't doing it keep your mouth shut" crap. It's not my job, its theirs and I'm helping pay their salary. I don't doubt there are great cops out there that do a great job, but I don't think that these are the guys. My opinion, just as yours, is one of many that shapes public policy and therefore is valid as an opinion, not a fact. Yes, there are "far many good hard working cops out their doing a job" and there are many hard working citizens that can and do catch a beating because the of the bad apples. That's why we have to vent our opinions and keep our eyes on their actions.  the worst part is that by voicing my opinion in this matter, and trying to justify a dead man that I think was undeservedly smacked around, I will be seen a cop-hater or someone who doesn't deserve police protection. This isn't the case it is just that I believe in the rights of the citizen as much as the rights of the officers. *



Sorry, that may have come off as harsher than I planned when I typed it. I really just think things are getting a little distorted by "the blue haze".


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## Michelle (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Oh Brian, I said what killed him was putiing a 350 pound man on his stomach with his arms behind his back. The police know this, it happens all the time....Sean *



TOD... I never heard of this.  Is it just with extremely overweight people where this has a potential for being fatal?  And how so?  Is it from respiratory problems?  

TIA
Michelle


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 4, 2003)

Michelle:  It's just like when an elephant lies down:  It's weight knocks the wind out of it's own lungs and the animal suffocates itself.


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

Kinda like beached whales?


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## Michelle (Dec 4, 2003)

Thank you for the response sir (OFK).  So...... what we have is a situation where the fact he was 350 lbs is ultimately what led to his death.   Throw me down at a buck twenty five and cuff me and I'm probably going to be okay, right?  It was his weight.  

But wait!!  No!!  Because he didn't suffocate.  He had a heart attack.  And he had a heart attack because he had heart disease.... and he had heart disease because he was overweight.  On top of that, he was doing 2 drugs that are well known to cause heart arythmias even in people who are in good shape.  And then he picks a fight.

When are we going to start holding people responsible for their own actions and stop blaming everyone else?  The above scenario sounds more like involuntary suicide to me than anything else.

Okay.  Let the flogging begin.
Michelle


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 4, 2003)

I said it earlier:  The guy was a big fat slob with heart disease on drugs who attacked some police officers in cold weather.  That is the perfect recipe for a heart attack.  If he had died shoveling snow it wouldn't be as controversial as if he attacked some white police officers.


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## Pacificshore (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> * I will be seen a cop-hater or someone who doesn't deserve police protection.  *





This is what separates those in L.E. from those who can't and won't put themselves in harms way day in and day out.  Because even with your assessment made here, a Cop will see you as another citizen who has rights afforded to them, and will work hard to make sure they aren't trampled on by them or anyone else.  So don't be surprised when you need one and they knock on your door.  Last I knew, Cops pay taxes too, so I guess some of their salary is paid by them too.:soapbox:


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Dec 4, 2003)

7 Habits of Not Dead People

1)  Don't get morbidly obese
2)  Don't forget to take your psychiatric medications
3)  Don't forget to take your heart medications
4)  Don't do illegal recreational drugs
5)  Don't attack police officers
6)  Don't resist arrest
7)  Don't eat too many cheeseburgers!!!


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Pacificshore _
> *This is what separates those in L.E. from those who can't and won't put themselves in harms way day in and day out.  Because even with your assessment made here, a Cop will see you as another citizen who has rights afforded to them, and will work hard to make sure they aren't trampled on by them or anyone else.  So don't be surprised when you need one and they knock on your door.  *



I both thank them for that and expect it from them, it is, afterall, their job. 



> _Originally posted by Pacificshore _
> *Last I knew, Cops pay taxes too, so I guess some of their salary is paid by them too.:soapbox: *



That they do and their opinon is just as valid as anyother taxpayer, no more or less.


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *7 Habits of Not Dead People
> 
> 1)  Don't get morbidly obese
> ...



:rofl: 

1) check
2) ch. . .ch. . .ch. . check
3)check
4) check
5) check
6) check
7) I'm workin on it


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## Touch Of Death (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michelle _
> *TOD... I never heard of this.  Is it just with extremely overweight people where this has a potential for being fatal?  And how so?  Is it from respiratory problems?
> 
> TIA
> Michelle *


Michelle, I took a class from the Spokane police instructor on just this issue. Fat people have a tendancy to die on their stomachs in the back of police cars from either suffocation or a heart attack brought on by a struggle and labored breathing. As I've said before the police know about this possibility. The two officers landing on him at the same time couldn't have helped either. We have non lethal restraining technology and as a nation of overweight people we should probably consider the problem. However, I sense a belief that he deserved to die for being a "Fat Bastard" from people on this site and he should probably be killed for resisting arrest in the most racialy charged city in America. I can feel the love 
Sean


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## Michelle (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *We have non lethal restraining technology and as a nation of overweight people we should probably consider the problem. However, I sense a belief that he deserved to die for being a "Fat Bastard" from people on this site and he should probably be killed for resisting arrest in the most racialy charged city in America. I can feel the love
> Sean *



No no no.  I don't believe anyone here said he "deserved to die" for being obese (or for any other reason for that matter)... I believe what was said here is that it was definitely contributory and shouldn't come as a surprise, and his death, for reasons listed, does not, in some people's opinions (mine included) constitute "excessive use of force" or police brutality.  I still question the whole gray area that he was "killed".  I look at it more as if He died.  There's a difference.  A big one. 

My father died at age 62 of a heart attack during an asthma attack.  He was overweight, ate crap food, was sedentary, had high blood pressure, drank too much, had the beginnings of emphasema AND smoked two packs of cigarettes a day.  It was actually his asthma inhaler that put his heart over the top and sent him into arrythmia (sp?) and he didn't come out.  Should we have sued the maker of the asthma inhaler?  Uh, no.  He treated his body like crap, even knowing he had all these problems.  He died.  It has nothing to do with "feeling the love" TOD.  It has to do with common sense, the consequences of our actions and accountability.  I feel bad he died.  But there's no reason to try and make it something it's not.  If he was white or hispanic or samoan, or it happened in Des Moine, Iowa would anyone even know about this news story?  Prolly not.  Because you said so yourself....its a racially charged city that's already got a bone to pick.

Respectfully,
Michelle


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

Wow, I'm the one who started this topic but hey, at least everyone is being civil in expressing their opinions. Myself, being a police officer is very interested in hearing everyone's viewpoints whether you agree with me or not.

Quote from Pacificshore:
Hey, unless you walk in a pair of Cop boots, and know what it takes, keep your opinions based on the facts at hand, and not what should have or have not been done by the Police. Granted there are a few bad apples out there, but there are far MANY good hard working cops out their doing a job not many are cut out to do.

I have to most definitely go with that. How many passing judgement can honestly say and give documentation that they have been in similar situations? It's like me passing judgement on a combat veteran in our military, sorry, but I will take a back seat to him/her, he's been there, I haven't! Now, as far as the cops looking 'sloppy' in the use of the baton, as an instructor's instructor in the use of the police baton please let me address this. First of all, police are given limited training in all aspects of defensive tactics & officer survival in most states due to budget constraints. That is, unfortunately, a fact! Secondly, I hope no one on this forum actually thinks they are going to look as good in the dojo or a demonstration as they would on the street. I don't mean this to agitate anyone but I have to definitely speak out on this. I don't care how hard you train, who you are or how great your ability is, you are not going to look like Jeff Speakmen in The Perfect Weapon, as a matter of fact, Jeff Speakmen, in all due respect, won't look like Jeff Speakmen in the Perfect Weapon in similar street confrontations as in the movies.  I'm sure many excellent martial artists reading this can testify to the fact that martial arts as 'applied' in real life encounters is only a shadow of how the practitioner looks in the dojo. The problem I see is many do not want to admit that, even to themselves. They keep up this charade that they can't back up. I know guys like this in the arts who have backed down and basically cowered out when they really should have made a stand (win, lose or draw), in my opinion, just for this reason. They were afraid to break this ridiculous superman 'mystique'. That is why I totally respect where I train, there's no 'smoke & mirrors'. Remember William Cheung when some guy 'crashed' his seminar? (great Wing Chun man, I really mean that, he's very talented). It was caught on tape. Didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me, looked more like Vince McMahon's WWE Thursday Night "Smackdown", true?  I think Hollywood created this impossible myth and some try to live up to it.  Also making fun of the officers' physical condition, older officers from what I could tell, is like telling the woman in a rape case that she deserved it from either how she was dressed or her affairs with other lovers. Sorry, but it most definitely comes off that way. Let's not blame Mr. Jones for his actions, let's blame the cops, it's their fault he assaulted them with no provocation!

OuLobo: You have been very professional and polite in your posts  even when I may disagree with you at times. You also will reflect on what you have wrote and sometimes feel you may have expressed yourself in the wrong light. I've done that too and I also respect that of you but I have to say this and please take it with a smile. I've been in a cop since October 1977 and we are so 'sick & tired' of hearing the "I pay your salary line!", LOL.
OuLobo, c'ome on now, I do enjoy your posts but you can do better than that one! That statement's been around as long as Elliot Ness!, lol. You have to admit that one! Respectfully & Sincerely, "Joe"


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## Karazenpo (Dec 4, 2003)

OUlobo quoted me respectfully but disagreed on this:

With respect, Karazenpo stated "Cops are not trained to fight fair, they are not trained to fight by the 'Queensbury Rules', they are trained to fight to WIN. A municipality or state spends tax dollars to train and equip officers to win, not lose." 

OUlobo, you won't believe where I got that statement from. Back in the early 80's I was in court sitting in on someone elses' arrest where the baton was used in a use of force situation in which the defense attorney challenged the injuries sustained by his client. That statement that I used in my post came from the sitting judge hearing the case!!!!!!!!! Not from a cop! Honestly, I'll never forget it, my kind of judge! Great debate, OUlobo! Respectfully, Joe

PS: I knew the parties involved personally, that's why I sat in on it. They told me later that the cop was totally justified in the use of the baton but it was their job to try to beat the case. Go figure!


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## OULobo (Dec 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Karazenpo _
> *
> OuLobo: You have been very professional and polite in your posts  even when I may disagree with you at times. You also will reflect on what you have wrote and sometimes feel you may have expressed yourself in the wrong light. I've done that too and I also respect that of you but I have to say this and please take it with a smile. I've been in a cop since October 1977 and we are so 'sick & tired' of hearing the "I pay your salary line!", LOL.
> OuLobo, c'ome on now, I do enjoy your posts but you can do better than that one! That statement's been around as long as Elliot Ness!, lol. You have to admit that one! Respectfully & Sincerely, "Joe" *



Well I'm glad people can understand when temper and quick typing get the best of me. Now on to business. I know the "I pay your salary" thing is overused and cliche', but I think that some officers seem to forget that they are employed by the citizens, albeit mabey not directly, and that they are employed to protect them, among other duties. I know this isn't the police department's only job, but it is part of their duties. Remember if they get put up on charges, it's the people of that community that will be on the jury. Its their opinions that will determine guilt and possibly punishment. As for Mr. Jones, like most of the forum members here, I regret his death and I don't blame the officers, but my personal opinion is that the beating he recieved was excessive.  

I'm glad this discussion was kept from degrading to name calling and threats. I'm happy to see there are still some on the forum that can propegate a debate intelligently and with respect to other's opinions and viewpoints.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2003)

Thanks Oulobo, an excellent response and challenging so here goes. I viewed the entire tape, the police told the suspect in a clear and authoritive manner to put his hands behind him 16 times. All baton blows were definitely, from what I can see and what investigators have so far said, to non-lethal areas. OC and the like do not usually have much if any appreciable effect on people like that. We had a very similiar case just outside my jurisdiction , the cops unloaded all their OC and the guy just fought even harder. He was obese and later died of a heart attack. What would you suggest? I've seen guys impervious to stun guns. As a matter of fact one of my Police Defensive Tactics instructors could take a full hit from one and keep functioning. He demonstrated it right in front of us.  This guy was not only on PCP and cocaine but was an EDP and 350+ pounds, please give this more thought but if that's what you think I will respect that. Also, realize, these things happen fast and you really don't have time to plan but everyone has all the time in the world to judge after it has happened, just like in sports, armchair managing. You must understand, when the police arrive the ball is in the suspect's court. In other words the cops attempt to contain him and hold off until more backup 
arrives but the cops do not have the final word on this. The suspect does because if the suspect starts to leave while in this belligerant manner the police must stop him from doing so as he presents a clear & present danger to the public. The cops can't run away or decide to back off and let him go. He's under arrest and that's the bottom line. If we start doing that no one will obey the police in these situations. Civillians have the option of running away from this guy and calling 911. Once all the cops get there who do they call? Ghostbusters? ,lol. We had a joke on that when a brother officer's wife woke him up in the middle of the night. She heard a noise downstairs and told her husband. He said 'call the cops', she said 'you are the cops'!  Respectfully, Joe

PS: Please critique my post and after taking all my points into consideration give an alternative. I will be open and honest if I feel, as a police officer, that your points are valid  and I tell you.


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## OULobo (Dec 5, 2003)

I still think that it was possible to step back and let him have his fit. The guy might have had strong legs, but he's lifting 350lbs with them. Human legs aren't designed to handle stresses and loads like that, no matter how strong they are. I haven't met a person over 280lbs that can get up in less than 10 seconds. Even NFL football players that size don't hop up from a pile up and they are rigorously trained and in grand condition. This guy isn't going to run off and create a significant public nuiceance in his condition. He barely made it out of the White Castle before he passes out the first time, he had narcolepsy, he had a heart condition, not to mention a first round of bruises that sent him to the ground. Screaming at a man to comply while you are hammering away at his body isn't a realistic way to force his acceptance of your orders. I will concede that there is a level of adrenaline and unpredictablility that has to be taken into account. I know, and thank god, that LEOs aren't robots that are immune to fear, anger and bad decisions, but they should be better prepared and trained in better ways to handle things like this and they need the utmost ability to control their emotions, specifically anger. These officers wouldn't have known if he was complying or trying to shield his ribs from their blows anyway. 

I think the officers acted approprietly until Mr. Jones was on the ground. As for another option, I know that "less-than-lethals" aren't cure-alls, but applying an (un)healthy dose of OC or mace to Mr. Jones' face would disorient and partially impare him. Then let him huff and puff his way the roughly 10 steps, okay 20 steps since he was hopped up, that he could walk before he keels over from exhaustion and pain, or in this case, a disabillity that most people his size have. Effectively nutralized without further beating or risk of Mr. Jones get a hold of a police weapon. This may be wishful thinking, but I think it is realistic in application and I have seen other instances where suspects hopped up on whatever have been contained and later apprehended without being beaten. I my opinion even a standoff would have been better than a beating, that consequently led to a death. 

Another issue to address is the "boogie man" that some drugs have become. I don't condone drug abuse and I know I'm going to take some flack for this, but PCP is an unpredictable drug. Unpredictible means you don't know what he's going to do. Yes, there are examples where the users become endorphine fueled halucinating nutjobs, but there is a good chance that only effect of the drug on the user is that he will stare at a wall and rock back and forth or have a horrible craving for greasy onion covered miniature hamburgers. People have heard horror stories and seen afterschool movies where"good kids" hurl themselves out windows, but these are extreme examples. Not every kid that gets picked on shoots up the school and not every PCP user becomes violent and aggressive. Knowing that he was on drugs after the fact doesn't justify anything as the officers couldn't know about his habits or condition before or during the confrontation.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2003)

Hello OUlobo, being a police training officer since April of 1985 I've reviewed many cases on the use of force. Police officers who strike out of anger usually continue to do so even though its over and the suspect has been totally neutralized. These cops 'came right down' when the suspect was neutralized and showed no signs of hostility or anger what-so-ever, just relief and then concern when he wasn't breathing. 

As far as his leg strength goes, did you see him on the surviellance video at Whitecastle? One radio talk show host, Laura Ingram, described him as doing an aerobics class and included in this was squats-deep knee bends slowly going up and down. He was impressive for an obese man. I saw that tape too on the Fox channel. He was moving pretty good for a big man. I've seen pro wrestlers that big get up pretty quick in their shows and some of them are as obese as him.

Again, sir, it's the individual state and munipality that dictates how much training an officer gets and its all about dollars and cents. Sure, there are some officers like myself that train on their own but hey, martial arts isn't for everyone. The minimal training standards are mandated by each state and some of these people aren't even law enforcement who call the shots. Many who make these decisions live in suburban America and never got in a fight in their life. They don't have a clue, so until this changes, we're stuck with the programs we have. What I have noticed, OUlobo, is that they don't really care, they set up 'minimum standards' as a form of 'C.Y.A.' , Cover Your ***, that way if something goes down they let themselves off the hook by saying, hey, those cops had training, they were certified, don't blame us! You should see how some of these certifications are done, they're ridiculous but no one cares, it's a all CYA!   Respectfully, Joe


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by OULobo _
> *I still think that it was possible to step back and let him have his fit. The guy might have had strong legs, but he's lifting 350lbs with them. Human legs aren't designed to handle stresses and loads like that, no matter how strong they are. I haven't met a person over 280lbs that can get up in less than 10 seconds. Even NFL football players that size don't hop up from a pile up and they are rigorously trained and in grand condition.
> . . .
> *



Hi OULobo et al,

I was 284 this morning, And I know I can get up faster than 10 seconds. My BMI is 33+ which means I am Obese, yes. Yet, I carry it quite well. So, I would argue that many people in the weight catagory have problems. Not all, and not those who practice and or workout. Add in the fact that if people are on pain killers and ego enhancers (* i.e. believe they are immortal *) this makes the big guy even more dangerous. Now all he has to do is grab you or fall on you and you are seriously hurt.

As to walking away. What would the police do, if this guy charged a civilian and this civilian got hurt. The Police would be sued.

Believe me, I know Police Brutality, and it does happen. Yet, I also have handled and helped handle people on drugs. If a person gets beat just because this is wrong. If a person attacks a police officer, he has no resepct for the law, and this means that this police officer is nothing more than another person to the bad guy. 

As to positional Asphyxiation, where a large person can stop breathing in certain positions including on their stomache and with their arms behind them, is not a common 100% known issue. Police officers are not insects and Police Agencies are not hives. This is to say that what one police officer knows, does not mean that another officer knows this. the training and emphasis from their local or state could be completely different.


Now to the conditions of this guy. He would have died soon anyway. Heck, he might have been on a bender because he was told he was going to die. It is sad that he did die, and I would not have wished him to be dead.

Yet, here is a question, let us suppose he attacked you instead of a police officer. And let us say you push/attack/defend against him and he goes down. Now let us say while on his knees his Nnarcolepsy kicks in and he falls forward onto his stomache. His lower brain kicks in tell him to start to breath, yet he cannot because of his position. Now you were smart and ran away from this altercation. You call 911. The police show up and he is dead. Now they find the exact same things in his body. Yet, you are now under investigation for homocide, since you touched him. Would you like to have been the person walking out that ended up touching him last before he died of his body condition?

Good discussions


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2003)

Excellent post Rich and I, too, know their are bad police officers just like any other profession. Police brutality does exist as sure as domestic violence does but the vast majority of men don't beat their wives or girlfriends either. So, I do agree with you wholeheartedly. Cops are just a cross section of the population. As far as a bad cops goes I'd be the first to want them prosecuted. It gives good cops a bad name because we all basically wear the ame uniform. I really don't think these guys did anything wrong. You know what to look for? There attitudes after the guy immediately stopped. They did not punish him, there was no vengence, hell, I didn't hear a cop swear. The other thing is these guys initially knew they were being filmed, why would they bite their nose to spite their face? They were in a fight for their lives and they knew it! I saw nothing but relief when they finally subdued him.  Then concern and immediate medical treatment. Just my take on it! Sincerely, Joe


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## OULobo (Dec 5, 2003)

Well, stop the presses y'all. You have come damn close to convincing me that nothing is wrong here. As fo the instance of personally being attacked on the street by Mr. Jones during his bender; first, I generally avoid people like him (passed out in front of a White Castle; second, I'm not a LEO and should not be held to their standard of conduct and action; third, I wouldn't run if the guy is on the ground, I wouldn't attack, I would observe and if he wasn't moving possibly apply emergency attention my self; finally, I don't see my self in danger at all if the situation panned out as you said. The forensics will show that is was asphixiation and not strangulation that caused his death. I'm not responsible if be can't rise on his own. There is still the issue of self-defense and the issue of proving he didn't fall on his own (epithilials on his clothes would be hard to find if even there and the coroner may not even choose to look). There was a case locally recently where a bar fight occured and a man got punched and fell. When he fell he hit the curb and died of a brain hemorrage. A jury found the striker not guilty of his death. However that didn't absolve him of the possiblilty of a civil suit, because he admitted to assault.


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## Karazenpo (Dec 5, 2003)

I would like to also say this. If we keep this type of pressure on our police forces of being constantly browbeaten for decisions and reactions they make in seconds in dangerous situations because they will be fired or incarcerated then I'll tell you what will happen and it's already happening to some. They will UNDERREACT or even FAIL to REACT. They will HESITATE and as the late Ed Parker said, "He who hesitates, mediates, in a horizontal postion". An overreaction can get the suspect killed but an under reaction can get the officer(s) or innocent civillians killed. I realize we have to keep everyone in line and have checks and balances on our officers but we cannot make them paranoid and afraid to do their job because if this happens we'd all better go live in a closet, a locked closet at that!   Respectfully, Joe


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## TonyM. (Dec 5, 2003)

In the tape I was watching the bald headed goof was jamming the end of his nightstick repeatedly at selected sensitive targets with extreme force and from the expression on his face, hostility. I would say that he was deliberately trying to permanitely maim or kill the suspect. I would call this murder. As a former correctional officer with plenty of experience in subdueing violent residents without a nightstick I have to say that Iam sickened and extremely tired of this behavior. Something needs to be done about the police problem in this country. It's been out of contol for as long as I can remember, and thats not including the graft, strongarm protection, drug sales, juvenile rape and falsifying evidence problems that seem to be everywhere.


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## Michelle (Dec 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by TonyM. _
> *In the tape I was watching the bald headed goof was jamming the end of his nightstick repeatedly at selected sensitive targets with extreme force and from the expression on his face, hostility. I would say that he was deliberately trying to permanitely maim or kill the suspect.  *



The coroner's report directly contradicts that.


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 5, 2003)

Of course, it's always possible that this guy was an idiot--looked like it to me--AND the two officers handled him badly...noit because they hit him, but because they hit him poorly. 

I'd still like to know what the jabs were for...looked a little Abner Djaillou to me...but don't get me wrong, sure looked like the cops needs to whomp that guy.


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## arnisador (Dec 9, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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