# Do you think the rule set of UFC makes it difficult to translate a large set of martial arts?



## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

Let the arguments begin!!!


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 2, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Let the arguments begin!!!


Arguments about what?


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## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Arguments about what?


if rules make certain martial arts have an advantage, what should be changed to we see more variety and why do those rules exist? is it really to defend the athlete or to favor BJJ?


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2022)

No.

Ok. Here is the premis. I had to prove once that 2+2=4.

And it is a hard concept to explain. The conclusion I came to was 2+2=4 because it is consistent with everything else.

1+1=2
 1+1+1+1=4

And so on every way you come at the problem. Consistently gives you the correct answer.

This is how MMA works. Someone tries to punch you. You have a consistent solution. 

If someone is on top of you holding you down. You have a consistent solution.

If you do some other martial arts that doesn't really change. You will face the same dynamics if you ufc rules fought with tkd guys or krav guys. Or if you shoved a rubber knife in there or whatever.

You can move outside the dynamics of the UFC rule set. But the basic problems encountered and overcome will be similar. 


The UFC rule set is probably the easiest to translate in to other styles. As it gives the most opportunity for that style to present its strengths and expose its weaknesses.


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## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> Ok. Here is the premis. I had to prove once that 2+2=4.
> 
> ...






 <- check Chael Sonnen talking, this is what made me think about the rules and suff


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 2, 2022)

dramonis said:


> if rules make certain martial arts have an advantage, what should be changed to we see more variety and why do those rules exist? is it really to defend the athlete or to favor BJJ?


Let’s assume the rule set does favor one or more arts. Why would that be a reason to change them?


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2022)

dramonis said:


> <- check Chael Sonnen talking, this is what made me think about the rules and suff



I think that is because UFC has less rules though.









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Statistically a very few number of moves are responsible for a very large number of finishes.

If you don't do those moves you are fighting against the odds.


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## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Let’s assume the rule set does favor one or more arts. Why would that be a reason to change them?


I think is way more interesting to watch or even fight if there is more variety of tech used in the ring, as UFC evolve we see that they remove a lot of techs even in BJJ to fit MMA, 90's figures were more fun to see cuz was noticeable the difference of fighting styles now days seems that everyone has more o less same skill set, and sometimes ppl show some different moves but this is when the person excel on fighting


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## dramonis (Dec 2, 2022)

drop bear said:


> I think that is because UFC has less rules though.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think is because ppl try to be more effective on the limitations imposed by UFC, but i really don't know for sure

we can't really tell cuz I can also relate to the belt of ppl, closer to black belt different tech we will see, and one thing to notice especially in brasil they tend to teach a lot more armbars than leg so... is also question of training.


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## drop bear (Dec 2, 2022)

dramonis said:


> i think is because ppl try to be more effective on the limitations imposed by UFC, but i really don't know for sure
> 
> we can't really tell cuz I can also relate to the belt of ppl, closer to black belt different tech we will see, and one thing to notice especially in brasil they tend to teach a lot more armbars than leg so... is also question of training.



But you can do all of sambo. All of judo and leg locks in MMA.

Ryan hall is one off the best leg lockers around for example.


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## Cynik75 (Dec 3, 2022)

Gerry Seymour said:


> Arguments about what?


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## ronki23 (Dec 3, 2022)

Fight under Pride rules. No elbows though


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## frank raud (Dec 4, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Let the arguments begin!!!


No.


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## Jared Traveler (Dec 4, 2022)

I do think grappling would play a much bigger part of there were no rounds.


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## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I do think grappling would play a much bigger part of there were no rounds.



Venues like rounds though, it helps with profits at bars etc. It may be martial arts but it's a business for many.


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## drop bear (Dec 4, 2022)

And I would ko myself if I had to sit through a solid hour of lay and pray.


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## punisher73 (Dec 5, 2022)

Hmmm.....so many answers.

Rules dictate tactics and techniques.  For example, gloves were banned in the first UFC (yeah...we know Jamerson still had one glove on, but Rorion allowed it because he knew he was clueless).  The Gracies were smart to know that many fighters break their hands and would be more "gun shy" to punch hard because of it. The early UFC's also had a softer floor that favored grappling over better footing for strikers to move quicker.  Tank Abbott was the first to wear what eventually became the "mma glove" because he WAS a street savvy fighter. 
If there were no time limits and no stand ups, you would see more ground based games again like the earlier UFC's.  Standing fighters up when there is no action is an advantage to strikers.

The environment also plays a part between ring and cage (Pride vs. UFC) and will play into your tactics.  For example, UFC uses the fence too its advantage for fighters.  If it was an open area and much larger, you would see different tactics. 

That being said.  In the US, MMA is usually a mixture of wrestling, Boxing, Muay Thai, and BJJ.  In other countries, you don't always get this mix like we do here.  Its easy to forget that the UFC is only one MMA competition in the world.  But, most MMA will be techniques that are higher percentage moves that can be applied against a resisting opponent.  Even in MMA, you will see moves done that are more "complex" when there is a much greater skill than the opponent.  Think about some of the things that Anderson Silva could do in his prime.

At this point, the ruleset of UFC is meant to give the most entertainment value (while working within the legal contraints for safety).  Before some of the rule changes, many people were losing interest because they didn't want to see a long drawn out ground grappling match.  Remember, for the most part, the UFC's fan base demographic is the same as the WWE fanbase (which is also why you see it promoted now with the trash talking etc.)


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## skribs (Dec 5, 2022)

I personally think the UFC is already open to a wide array of martial arts, and that those arts that are not very common are fine with not being very common in the UFC.

In Taekwondo, my biggest concerns were Taekwondo tournaments, learning what my Master had to teach me, and effectively teaching my students what he and I wanted them to learn.  I wasn't even watching the UFC.  I'd catch some highlights.  If I saw a nice kick, I could appreciate it, whether it came from a Taekwondoist, Karetaka, Muay Thai-er, or whoever it came it from.

In Hapkido, my biggest concern was trying to get more people from our Taekwondo class to try out Hapkido as well.  The fact very few people in UFC train Hapkido, or that almost everyone on r/martialarts can't even tell the difference between Aikido and Hapkido, none of that was of much concern to me.  Again, my focus was on mastering my technique and my own progression, and learning what my Master had to teach me.

In Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, I don't really care again about UFC.  I haven't watched a UFC match since I started BJJ.  I went and watched my professor and one of the upper belts compete in a recent tournament.  I'm trying to learn how to do the basics.  I'm trying to remember a technique long enough to hit it in sparring.  The fact that it is popular in the UFC almost indirectly pushed me away from it, because of my experience with BJJ (and Muay Thai) folks on r/martialarts being very much of the "If you don't do BJJ your argument is invalid" type of discussion.

UFC, and MMA in general, have a fighting system which rewards other combat sports where you are encouraged to meet strength against strength.  Other arts have other priorities.  Combat sports (including MMA) do a very good job of sharpening iron against iron.  Combat striking sports generally carry increased risk of concussion that point-based sports or self-defense arts do not.  Combat sports in general tend to ignore anything that is out-of-scope of a sanctioned match.  One big example is Fran Sands, boxing coach, who says "I teach boxing, not self-defense."  (That's not to say you can't use boxing in self-defense, but he's focused exclusively on the sport, and not on any other application).

I've done arts that aren't in UFC.  I'm doing an art that is (heck, the art that started it).  I'm not planning on competing in the UFC, or even in an MMA fight, so I don't really see any reason to care one way or the other.


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## Buka (Dec 5, 2022)

I think the UFC rule set teaches the fighters in the UFC what works well and what will get shoved up your opinion if you try and use it against someone who's a good fighter.


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## wab25 (Dec 6, 2022)

I would like the OP to give one example of a martial art style that is difficult to translate to MMA, along with the rule or rules that inhibit this translation. Also, how should the rules be changed to include this particular martial art?


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## Cynik75 (Dec 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I would like the OP to give one example of a martial art style that is difficult to translate to MMA, along with the rule or rules that inhibit this translation. Also, how should the rules be changed to include this particular martial art?


Like on the streetz ya know, no rulez.
Fight till one of fighters will not be able (phisically or mentally) to fight.  

I can bet MT, BJJ, wrestling, boxing, sambo etc. still would be the dominant styles.


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## skribs (Dec 6, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I would like the OP to give one example of a martial art style that is difficult to translate to MMA, along with the rule or rules that inhibit this translation. Also, how should the rules be changed to include this particular martial art?


OP did include a video of someone talking about how Judo isn't represented in MMA, certainly not in the medal stand.  Which I think is false, because Ronda Rousey was one of the most prolific women's MMA fighters, and came in with a strong Judo background.

Judo is probably underrepresented (compared to wrestling and BJJ) because of the lack of gi in MMA.  To fix this particular "problem", adding a "Gi MMA" would make a lot of sense.  I do believe there are some BJJ competitions that move in this direction a bit (but that doesn't help UFC).  A gi in most arts is just a uniform, but in BJJ and Judo is part of the sport as well.  Like how a football helmet isn't just part of the uniform, it serves a practical use in the sport.

Some other arts I could think of that aren't represented as much include self-defense focused arts like Krav Maga and Hapkido.  I'll use Hapkido as an example here.  Most of my Hapkido techniques would be against the rules in MMA, because we attack the weakest part of your body we can get ahold of.  90% of the time, it means we're grabbing fingers, and using those to create a gooseneck on your wrist that will control your arm and the rest of your body.  It gets much more difficult if I have to grab your wrist, because I have a worse grip and much less leverage that way.  However, rules are there for safety, and relaxing rules creates a greater risk of injury.

Then there's arts like Taekwondo and Karate, where typically striking is for points instead of for knockout.  A way to make them fit better is to go away from the 9-10 scores that they currently use, and instead use a point system like Taekwondo uses.  (Yes, I singled Taekwondo out, because I believe Karate pauses after each point is scored).  There is precedent for this in combat sports.  Both BJJ and wrestling do this.  

However, because of how complex MMA is, I'm not sure that you could have an objective  scoring system that is fair for both strikers and grapplers.  Something like:

1 Point: Punches, elbows, knees, leg kicks, recovering position in grappling
2 Points: Body kicks, spinning arm strikes, advancing position in grappling, sweep or reversal in grappling
3 Points: Head kicks, spinning kicks, submission threats, jumping position in grappling
Priority could still be given to KO or tapping your opponent out, but in this way a point-based art could start to fill in the gaps.  Additionally, it might incentivize people from Karate or Taekwondo to compete in MMA, if it offers options closer to their style of fighting.

To sum up, the three ideas I have to "fix" the "problem" with the UFC.  I'm not saying they wouldn't come with their own problems, but these are ways to get other arts more involved.

Add a Judo/BJJ Gi, so there is something for Judo and Gi-BJJ guys to grab onto
Reduce the list of banned techniques, so that self-defense guys can go for the moves they want to
Change the scoring metrics to reward every landed strike, instead of being a subjective 9-10 score, to encourage point-based striking arts to join the fray


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## dramonis (Dec 11, 2022)

wab25 said:


> I would like the OP to give one example of a martial art style that is difficult to translate to MMA, along with the rule or rules that inhibit this translation. Also, how should the rules be changed to include this particular martial art?


Judo, taekwondo, Greco-roman, more exotic like Shuai jiao, wing Chun, kali (unarmed) ... list goes on although from time to time we see it but is very difficult to have more than 3 ppl using that tech


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## skribs (Dec 11, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Judo, taekwondo, Greco-roman, more exotic like Shuai jiao, wing Chun, kali (unarmed) ... list goes on although from time to time we see it but is very difficult to have more than 3 ppl using that tech


That was only part of the question.  What rules inhibit them?  What changes would fix this?

What do you mean by "from time to time we see it but is very difficult to have more than 3 ppl using that tech."  There's a ton of context missing.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 11, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Judo, taekwondo, Greco-roman, more exotic like Shuai jiao, wing Chun, kali (unarmed) ... list goes on although from time to time we see it but is very difficult to have more than 3 ppl using that tech


Greco-Roman wrestlers have been some of the most successful practitioners in MMA. I don’t see how anyone could claim that the MMA rule set discriminates against Greco-Roman.

Judo practitioners less so, because of the need to adapt to no-gi. But there have been a reasonable number of successful judoka in MMA.

 I can’t recall off-hand any top MMA fighters whose primary foundation is Tae Kwon Do, but there have been a number of top practitioners who have some TKD background and have used TKD techniques successfully in the cage. I don’t think there’s anything in standard MMA rules which would prevent TKD practitioners from being able to use their art.

Shuai Jiao practitioners would probably have the same challenge as judoka in adapting to grappling without the jacket, but they could probably make the adjustment if there were any out there making the attempt.

Wing Chun practitioners have not historically done that well in MMA, but I’d say that has more to do with limitations in their typical training methods than with the restrictions of MMA rules. Alan Orr has shown that it’s possible to use WC in MMA.

Kali practitioners have a legit claim that MMA rules severely handicap their style. Obviously a system which is primarily weapon based is not going to do well in a competition which bans the use of weapons. (Some forms of Kali do include an unarmed component, but it generally takes up a relatively small percentage of training time and is optimized for taking advantage of the practitioner’s existing weapon skills rather than being the best possible approach to unarmed fighting.)


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## dramonis (Dec 11, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Greco-Roman wrestlers have been some of the most successful practitioners in MMA. I don’t see how anyone could claim that the MMA rule set discriminates against Greco-Roman.
> 
> Judo practitioners less so, because of the need to adapt to no-gi. But there have been a reasonable number of successful judoka in MMA.
> 
> ...


I think the way they give points favors more bjj than wrestlers, not just that if we compare in the beginning wrestlers have less knowledge on joint locks than bjj. I have the impression that when grapple successfully you get more points doing a joint lock than ground and pound


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## drop bear (Dec 12, 2022)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Greco-Roman wrestlers have been some of the most successful practitioners in MMA. I don’t see how anyone could claim that the MMA rule set discriminates against Greco-Roman.
> 
> Judo practitioners less so, because of the need to adapt to no-gi. But there have been a reasonable number of successful judoka in MMA.
> 
> ...



Yet fluffy karate has done ok. Like wonder boy.

Moontasari was a tkd guy.


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## wab25 (Dec 12, 2022)

dramonis said:


> Judo, taekwondo, Greco-roman, more exotic like Shuai jiao, wing Chun, kali (unarmed) ... list goes on although from time to time we see it but is very difficult to have more than 3 ppl using that tech


So, how should the rules be changed to include those?

As mentioned already... there are plenty of fighters from Judo and Greco-Roman wrestling and even a few from TKD. But, I am interested in how you propose to fix this.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 12, 2022)

dramonis said:


> I have the impression that when grapple successfully you get more points doing a joint lock than ground and pound


Not really. Of course a successful submission ends a fight, just like a knockout (which you can achieve through ground and pound). But if you don't finish the fight via submission or KO and it goes to points on the judges' scorecards, then ground-n-pound counts for more than unsuccessful submission attempts. And it's really hard to submit a sweaty athletic guy in a speedo who knows all the submissions and is allowed to hit you while you try to execute them.


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## Tony Dismukes (Dec 12, 2022)

Every high level modern MMA competitor is at the very least proficient in wrestling, submission grappling, and some form of striking. Some are elite in all three areas as well as having additional skills.

But just for fun, I decided to go through the Wikipedia list of UFC champions and count up the numbers for backgrounds in different martial disciplines/combat sports. Lots of them trained in multiple disciplines before entering MMA, so to simplify things I made up some rough-and-ready guidelines. If you count them yourself using different guidelines, you may get slightly different results.

First, I tried to count each competitor's primary background, not everything they might have studied. So if someone was a D1 wrestler and also had a handful of amateur boxing matches, they got counted as a wrestler. A few fighters had strong backgrounds in a couple of arts and I couldn't decide which was their primary, so both arts got counted. That means my totals will add up to slightly more than the actual number of UFC champions.

I counted a fighter's primary background as "MMA" if they started training and competing at a young age without substantial accomplishments in other arts beforehand. So if someone had just a blue belt in BJJ or a couple of years of wrestling or Tae Kwon Do before starting MMA, they get counted under MMA. I also didn't count disciplines that a fighter became expert in after the start of their MMA career.

I was going to separate out the different flavors of wrestling (freestyle, folkstyle, Greco), but Wikipedia isn't always clear on what each athlete had specialized in and some had participated in multiple forms. I did separate out catch wrestling, because it was more unusual and typically came from a different source (i.e. the Japanese pro-wrestling scene rather than high schools and colleges).

I included the winners from the original UFC tournaments before they abandoned the tournament format and went to championship belts. I did not include the Ultimate Fighter show winners.

So anyway, here are my totals:

Wrestling (including Freestyle, folkstyle, and Greco-Roman): 38
MMA: 21
BJJ: 17
Kickboxing (not including Muay Thai): 8
Muay Thai: 7
Boxing: 7
Sambo: 4
Karate: 4
Catch Wrestling: 4
Tae Kwon Do: 3
Kempo: 2
Judo: 2
Lutre Livre: 1
Sanda: 1
Robert Bussey Warrior International (a Bujinkan spin-off): 1*

*(Steve Jennum entered the tournament as an alternate and got directly to the finals after Ken Shamrock withdrew due to injuries. Due to this I don't think he really earned his place on the list of champions, but I include him for the sake of completeness.)


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## drop bear (Dec 19, 2022)

Here is a video I stumbled across that uses the MMA ish system to explore knife fighting.






You can insert ideas in to the basic concept regardless as to what your base art is. Provided you have an understanding as to what is experimentation and what is just being a screaming duchebag.


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## skribs (Dec 19, 2022)

drop bear said:


> Here is a video I stumbled across that uses the MMA ish system to explore knife fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've had a lot of discussions with folks that have a combat sport as their primary art, and have the attitude that you shouldn't explore and experiment with knife defense or things of that nature.  

TMAs get the stigma that they never pressure test anything.  And sure, that is true of many schools, and in some arts it's generally considered a sign of disrespect to pressure test instead of just following orders and developing technique.  But I would give combat sports the stigma that these things are taboo and not to even be worked on.

It's long been my opinion that if you take a TMA guy with knife defense and pressure test those, or if you take an MMA guy with pressure testing and add knife defense, then you would have a worthy system.


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