# real life attacks



## feintem (Oct 24, 2002)

How do you practice for a real attack? when pepole throw a step through punch or kick. We are not fighting a traditional matial artist we are fighting in the streets of americia. Where if you do not leave honor in the gutter  you are.  If you half step with the attack you will half step with the techique . 


--Just a thought what is yours?--








KENPO-
.......beautiful to behold but, deadiy to the touch.....


-Michael Grilli-


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## Blindside (Oct 24, 2002)

> Where if you do not leave honor in the gutter you are.



What has "honor" have to do with defending yourself?  And in particular with realistic self defense?  

I actually think the prevelance of the step through attack is an artifact of the mid-fifties and sixties, when the systems were set up to defend against karate type attacks.  You are correct about not facing a step-through punch in "real life" but I view it as a training tool.  The step through punch gives a beginner time to read the attack.  As the student gets better, you should remove those big obvious cues, and focus on reverse, cross, and hook punches.  The lunge punch ending position can mimic a jab, but I can't read and respond to a jab nearly fast enough to move to the outside of the attack like many of the techs call for.  But that is just me.

My opinion,

Lamont


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## Kalicombat (Oct 24, 2002)

Unless you live in a radical part of your town, are a trouble seeker, trouble maker, etc..., fighting in the streets of America is easily avoidable. Fighting is a conscious decision to engage in combat with another person or persons whom also have made a conscious decision to do so. Simply walk away from your perspective opponent, and both parties win. In my experiences, a fight is ego based, usually involved alcohol, and was over either very quickly, or not long after the bouncers interceded.
However, when a person makes a decision to make you their mark for reasons un beknown to anyone but themselves, and they attempt to attack you, then the proverbial **** should hit the fan. We as kenpoists should not be caught up in which foot the attacker stepped with, or trying to sort out which technique will work best, we must act, not react. I do not know your rank, experience, etc..., but my personal goal is effective, spontaneous action.  I will use what ever "gift" a perpetrator offers, be it left foot, right foot, left hand, right hand, club, knife, bottle, etc. 


Just my opinion,
Gary Catherman


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## Zoran (Oct 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by feintem _
> 
> *How do you practice for a real attack? when pepole throw a step through punch or kick. We are not fighting a traditional matial artist we are fighting in the streets of americia. Where if you do not leave honor in the gutter  you are.  If you half step with the attack you will half step with the techique .
> 
> *



To answer your question. I use spontenaity drills. You have a person line up infront of you and attack you with any type of attack in any way. From there you can move on to any 1-2 combination attack. Same thing with grabs, bear hugs and etc. Try having your partner behind you and attack you with any grab type attack. To step that up, if your technique doesn't work right away, have them take you down.

Anyway, that's some of the ways I train for it.


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## clapping_tiger (Oct 24, 2002)

It has been a while since I posted in here, for some reason I couldn't log on. 

I am lucky enough to be a member of a school which as purchased a full contact body armor suit. Some classes we get the lower belts practicing hitting all their targets on a moving body, that sets them up for when they hit the more advanced stage which takes place at blue belt and above. We then do attack scenarios which the attacker in the suit attacks full force and you need to defend. Then at brown and black, anything goes. All attacks from any angle, and any combination of attacks. In our instructor classes we take that one step further and add in a little more adrenaline stress training and work with someone "Woofing" at you(acting like a real attacker or drunk guy looking for a fight. You curse use racial slurs or say whatever someone might say to you to get you to fight). It helps prepare you for in case you can't resolve the situation and you need to get down to business. You also find yourself a little better prepared to defuse a situation if it should arise; I found this out first hand.


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## Handsword (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Blindside _
> 
> *
> I actually think the prevelance of the step through attack is an artifact of the mid-fifties and sixties, when the systems were set up to defend against karate type attacks.  You are correct about not facing a step-through punch in "real life" but I view it as a training tool.  The step through punch gives a beginner time to read the attack.  As the student gets better, you should remove those big obvious cues, and focus on reverse, cross, and hook punches.  The lunge punch ending position can mimic a jab, but I can't read and respond to a jab nearly fast enough to move to the outside of the attack like many of the techs call for.  But that is just me.
> ...



I've been thinking a bit about the cross punch (ie. right straight punch without a step-through) lately.  This is a common type of attack and I believe the syllabus techniques should deal with this in the early belt levels.  

Sure, there are a whole bunch of techniques that can be adapted to a cross punch with just a few modifications, but why wait to learn re-interpretation for such a likely attack?

Another increasingly common type of attack is the muay thai thigh kick.  As this is usually delivered to the outside of the lead leg, I don't believe that the Kenpo roundhouse kick defence techniques apply.

The average skill level of potential attackers out there is increasing and yet we don't specifically deal with these types of attacks in the syllabus at the ideal stage.  Is this not where a Kenpo syllabus would need to evolve (still teaching the same concepts and principles against a different range of attacks)?

And on the flip side, I'd say there are a whole bunch of "ideal" attacks which deal with unlikely scenarios (such as two-handed chokes from behind and unfriendly handshakes).  

I don't have a problem with these techniques, it's the "ideal attacks" that I'm questioning.

Respectfully,

- Slade


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## GouRonin (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by feintem _
> *We are not fighting a traditional matial artist we are fighting in the streets of americia.
> 
> --Just a thought what is yours?--*



My thought is that it's pretty sad when you can't spell the name of the country you live in.


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## Les (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *My thought is that it's pretty sad when you can't spell the name of the country you live in.
> *



I heard this is the new 'updated' spelling.

There is also talk of cutting the country down to a 24 state system, or even, some suggest, a 16 state system.

This won't effect your fees (taxes), you'll still have the privilege of giving too much your hard earned cash to the 'Higher Belts' of the government.

And NO guns!  Whoops, I shouldn't have said that  

But what of those countries around the periphery of this great nation, and some of those in Europe?

Well, it seems they're just doing 'Motion Government'

Les

DISCLAIMER

This post is offered as light humour, and the author accepts no responsibility if any person reading it takes offence.
It's ONLY a joke, honest


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## brianhunter (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *I heard this is the new 'updated' spelling.
> 
> ...



I needed that today!! Funny!!! HAPPY FRIDAY EVERYONE!!!!!!!!


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## GouRonin (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by brianhunter _
> *I needed that today!! Funny!!!*



Agreed. Les...you're the King of Martial Talk today!


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## RyuShiKan (Oct 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> 
> *Unless you live in a radical part of your town, are a trouble seeker, trouble maker, etc..., fighting in the streets of America is easily avoidable. Fighting is a conscious decision to engage in combat with another person or persons whom also have made a conscious decision to do so. Simply walk away from your perspective opponent, and both parties win. In my experiences, a fight is ego based, usually involved alcohol, and was over either very quickly, or not long after the bouncers interceded. *



I agree. I usually look at the places people come from on these boards and rarely do I see Harlem, East St. Louis (my old stomping grounds, btw), East LA or any other arm pit of the world written next to the persons name.
I usually see some podunk town with  a population equal in size to my senior class written that I have never heard of most of the time.
The "bar fight"/"street fight" scenario always seemed a bit far fetched. 
Having frequented many of the US Military bars in Japan I have seen plenty of "bar fights" that were nothing like you would see in the movies.
Most ended before anything serious happened because the bouncers were doing their jobs. Most of the time the two people were so blasted they could hardly stand. 
I would say "road rage" would be more realistic situation than anything else.


To answer your question we train a lot for when people "sucker punch" since that is the way many dirt bags will try and hit you. 
No step, just bang! out of the blue here comes the punch.......


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## Nightingale (Oct 29, 2002)

dude, it was a typo. get over it. 




> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *My thought is that it's pretty sad when you can't spell the name of the country you live in.
> *


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## GouRonin (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *dude, it was a typo. get over it.  *



Bite me, _"Dooood"._

I counted 5 spelling errors and his grammar is so bad he sounds like he took too many punches to the head and he drools. An occasional spelling error is ok. We all have one or two and we manage to get our point across. Even purposeful bad spelling can be used to get your point across.

However, how we spell or type on the net conveys something to the reader. Both the concept being put forth and something about the writer. 

If you can't spell the name of the country you live in that's pretty d@mn sad.


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## fist of fury (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> 
> *Bite me, "Dooood".
> 
> ...



:rofl: 
very true besides that's what the edit button is for to correct your typing mistakes.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 29, 2002)

Look, the only gramma (and granpa) checker I can possibly install here is from M$ and I just wont do that.... so, y'all are just going to have to learn to get along.


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## Elfan (Oct 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by feintem _
> 
> *How do you practice for a real attack? when pepole throw a step through punch or kick. We are not fighting a traditional matial artist we are fighting in the streets of americia. Where if you do not leave honor in the gutter  you are.  If you half step with the attack you will half step with the techique .
> 
> ...



Have your training partner attack you "for real." Like have him actaully try to hit you (its good to discuss this out before hand).  This alone I think will help you immensly.

Also consider practicing the "what-ifs" of the technique.  For examample if we set aside arguments and consider the ideal attack for delayed sword to be a right hand lapel grab.  Then the what-ifs would be things like:

a.  His attacking arm may be bent
b.  it may be straight and locked out
c.  the arm might start bent and then push you out
d. his right foot is forward when he grabs
e. His left foot is forward instead
f.  he is leaning forward when he grabs you

On the topic of "step through punuches..."  I prefer to think of them as "Punch step through." I claim no experience in street fighting but I think the only people who step through *with* their punch are karate people in the dojo.  Anway, to understand what I mean by a "punch step through" get in a "right neutral bow."  Now punch while forward bowing as hard as you can, don't try to catch yourself like a good trained kenpoist.  Your whole body will end up following your punch and you will step through.  I think that this better refelcts what "real" attacks will be, unless of cource you regularly get jumped by guys in white pajams ;-)


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## cdhall (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by clapping_tiger _
> 
> *...In our instructor classes we take that one step further and add in a little more adrenaline stress training and work with someone "Woofing" at you(acting like a real attacker or drunk guy looking for a fight. You curse use racial slurs or say whatever someone might say to you to get you to fight). It helps prepare you for in case you can't resolve the situation and you need to get down to business. You also find yourself a little better prepared to defuse a situation if it should arise; I found this out first hand. *



This sounds like an excellent idea.  While I think the body armor (we have some) is limiting in some regards, it is good to be able to hit a moving attacker with full force.

And simulating a situation by involving adrenaline is very good.  I have often found myself getting "heated" and first had to take a second or two to adjust and then to decide what to do.  I usually get "weak" first and then I can ignore it and decide what is next.  Could be a massive liability in the street.  Fortunately even point tournaments help me with this.


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## cdhall (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *Look, the only gramma (and granpa) checker I can possibly install here is from M$ and I just wont do that.... so, y'all are just going to have to learn to get along. *



Get 'em Bob!

Besides, no one has given Gou any sh#! for spelling America "C-a-n-a-d-a"
:roflmao:


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## cdhall (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *I heard this is the new 'updated' spelling.
> 
> ...



Well done, Les.

But of course you suffer from being taught "The Queen's English" which, as clearly explained in the OED, is merely a subset of "American English" which is of course merely a commercialized, watered down version of "English," which is of course inherently inferior to German, which is inferior to Latin.  But still, it is good enough to run the one of the World's strongest economies, so it is a workable methodology.

However, I did have Mr. English over several times, and on pain of death and after being sworn to secrecy as others no doubt have been as well, I was shown how English really is closer to Latin than anyone really knows and when used properly it is obviously superior to that which most multinational corporations, book publishers, and Universities use today.  But I can not show it to you in writing because, by nature, "commercial English" is incapable of expressing even the basic concepts of "English" however once I demonstrate it to you in person you will immediately realize how the one is a mere derivative of the other.

It is truly a shame that there is no software available, no way to hold a seminar, no modern electronic recording device which will allow me to convey this information to you as it would greatly elevate and enhance present day communication if you could all just get on the same page with me.
:rofl::roflmao:

Les, I had to try.  That was really funny.  In accordance with the Preparatory Considerations delinated in Infinite Insights Book 1, I am going to Accept that there are those out there who will take offense at this as I am Aware that the Environment of the Internet allows anyone to see what is written and fail to see well-intenioned humour.  However since the Range of any attack can not truly harm me I feel that my Position will prevent serious injury before damage can escalate out of control.  By Maneuvering this disclaimer to Target everyone's rational brain, I hope that Natural Weapons of logic and reason can also serve as my Natural Defense against impending disrespectful, unwarranted and potentially inflammatory retailatory comments.  :shrug:

Thanks again Les, if I can stop laughing I'll go to bed now.


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## cdhall (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by feintem _
> 
> *How do you practice for a real attack? when pepole throw a step through punch or kick. We are not fighting a traditional matial artist we are fighting in the streets of americia. Where if you do not leave honor in the gutter  you are.  If you half step with the attack you will half step with the techique .
> 
> ...



My thought is that no later than the Brown Belt level you should practice a precise and vigorous defense against a vigorous, precise attack and that even so "What If's" will occur and you should also be able to react to these spontaneously.

This post will make me a MartialTalk Brown Belt so I hope it adds something valuable and addresses your concern.
:asian:


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## Nightingale (Nov 1, 2002)

the only people I've ever seen throw a step through punch have been drunk.  and it was a kind of overhead-charging-bring-hand-and-arm-back-like-throwing-a-baseball type punch... you know, the kind that you see coming from a mile away, and just step out of the way so he runs into the bar instead?

I actually saw this happen in a bar in L.A.  My friends were laughing our arses off. the drunk had taken an issue with a friend of mine checking out the drunk's girlfriend (who looked completely embarrassed by her boyfriend's behavior) and took a swing at my friend. he saw it coming from a mile away, and just stepped out of range. The drunk slammed his fist into the bar instead, and his friends dragged him out of the place before he could make any more trouble...and my friend hooked up with the girl.  They're getting married next month. LOL!

If you can neutralize the threat of a fast punch, like a shuffle punch or a jab, then a step through probably isn't something you really need to worry about.

-N-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## Les (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *the only people I've ever seen throw a step through punch have been drunk.  *



So Nightingale,

Do you hang out with drunk people often?

I guess it's that TV station workers sub-culture.  

Les


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## WilliamTLear (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *the only people I've ever seen throw a step through punch have been drunk.  and it was a kind of overhead-charging-bring-hand-and-arm-back-like-throwing-a-baseball type punch... you know, the kind that you see coming from a mile away, and just step out of the way so he runs into the bar instead?
> 
> ...



I've seen lots of drunk people fight and lots of sober people too for that matter... Sorry to burst anyone's bubble, but the majority of the people I have seen throw a step through punch were sober. (I was a bouncer for a few years, so yeah Les... I used to hang around with about 700 drunk people and that's alot of fun, let me tell you.)

Not all step through's are slow and sloppy either, some can come at you quite fast.

Hasta,
Billy


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## Nightingale (Nov 1, 2002)

billy,

I will bow to your vast experience with drunkedness...er...drunk people.

-Nightingale



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## WilliamTLear (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *billy,
> 
> ...



:barf:  When you bow... I mean bend down, don't blow chunks all over my shoes... :lol:


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## Nightingale (Nov 1, 2002)

hhmph.  

honestly, I've never even been drunk... in college, I was always the designated driver, because I was the only one with a car!  so my friends got sloshed, and I brought a camera and took pictures... they're stored in a file in my desk labelled "blackmail"


-N-


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## WilliamTLear (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *hhmph.
> 
> ...



Nightingale8472 has a blackmail picture of me... Sometimes she holds it over my head while she shouts down at me from the *"Ivory Tower Of Never Drunk"* in the *"Land of Boozers"*.

Uh... oh... Id' better watch it... I could inspire her to do something rash if I keep it up... I'm sorry!!! Really, really sorry!!! Honest, I am!!!


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## Nightingale (Nov 1, 2002)

now Billy, you REALLY don't want me to post the photo of you in the Frederick's of Hollywood french maid costume, do you?


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## WilliamTLear (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *now Billy, you REALLY don't want me to post the photo of you in the Frederick's of Hollywood french maid costume, do you? *



That sinches it... Even though she may have never been drunk, I at least know that she's inhaled a couple times. The Ivory Tower Of Never Drunk should be renamed. How about The Stoned Tower of Smokes Alot?

I've never worn a Frederick's of Hollywood french maid costume... the best you have is an airbrushed fabrication, but go ahead and post it... Good art should always be displayed for the masses to appreciate.  Just make sure that my teeth are straight, O.K.?

Intersting that this post is titled "Real life attacks", eh?


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## Les (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *now Billy, you REALLY don't want me to post the photo of you in the Frederick's of Hollywood french maid costume, do you? *



Here's an idea.....

Lets do a poll of who would like to see THAT picture!

Les


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## SingingTiger (Nov 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Les _
> 
> *Here's an idea.....
> 
> ...



It's really not that bad, although I'm not sure I'd call it a "French Maid" costume.  I guess it depends on the maid.

Rich


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## Nightingale (Nov 1, 2002)

LOL! That's not the same pic I have.... Billy, is there something you'd like to tell us all?


-N-



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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## WilliamTLear (Nov 1, 2002)

If I really had a body like that I'd never make it out of bed every day... Wow... I didn't know that I was that hot? Now I know why Gou Ronin chases me all over the internet. :ladysman: 

Seriously Rich... you've gotta find a new hobby... Playing dress-up with guys pictures is almost as bad as dressing Ken up in Barbies clothes. :shrug: Oh well, have fun.


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