# Difference between Northern and Southern?



## AlwaysTraining (Jan 29, 2006)

What exactly are the differences between Northern and Southern styles.  I've read a few different explainations but I'd like to hear it from the practitioners.


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## clfsean (Jan 29, 2006)

Lots, but not many.

In the generalized sense, barring internal/external, animal/hand, short/long & in no way a complete or even close to accurate & complete comparison ... 

Southern systems tend to use hands more than Northern systems. 
Southern systems tend to be a little more direct & straight forward in application & theory.
Southern systems tend to marry weapons to hands.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2006)

Look at were they were developed
North - more open space
South - small narrow streets

Wing Chun  Southern
Xingyi - Northern

Northern mantis - bigger movements
Southern Mantis - smaller movements.

That is my understanding.


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## 7starmantis (Jan 30, 2006)

Well, here are a couple of threads on the topic, soem interesting reading about the topic.

Northern, Southern Fighting Strategy

Northern vs Southern

Reading those threads you will see I have a big problem with the distinctions and its mostly from my training in 7* mantis. We are considered a "northern" system but fight (in my experience) more "southern" than many "southern arts". Let me say that my experiences are almost exclusively limited to mantis with only a bit of Hung Gar, Eagle Claw, and some basic Wing Chun. I also train heavily with partners from other systems such as Karate, Muay Thai, and Gracie Jujitsu. That being said, my intrest is mainly in fighting so I may appraoch the situation different from someone whose intrest is more for forms or the art of the systems. 

Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.

Ok, off my soap box...
7sm


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Look at were they were developed
> North - more open space
> South - small narrow streets
> 
> ...


 
This is a bit of an oversimplification.  Tibetan White Crane and Choy Li Fut are both considered "Southern", but use long, sweeping movements and lots of space, for example.

It is difficult to really categorize what the difference is.  I think personally that different systems developed under various circumstances and influences and so simply are what they are.  Generalizations often don't apply very well once you start looking at examples.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2006)

Not to get off subject, but I know nothing about "Tibetan White Crane"

Something called Tibetan is Southern?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 30, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Not to get off subject, but I know nothing about "Tibetan White Crane"
> 
> Something called Tibetan is Southern?


 
Well, it was originally Tibetan but was brought into southern China so got lumped in with the other southern systems.  It has some stylistic similarities with Choy Li Fut, and influenced Hung Gar, esp. with the Fu Hok set of Wong Fei Hung.  One of the original Ten Tigers of Canton was a White Crane guy (actually probably Lama or Hop Gar at the time, see next paragraph) and was a friend of Wong Fei Hung's father.

The system went thru some changes over the centuries.  Origninally it was Lion's Roar style in Tibet, then Lama style (practiced by the Tibetan Lamas) when it was brought into China, then it took the name Hop Gar, and from Hop Gar it split into a sister art known as White Crane.  They still all exist as distinct arts, but are very similar and come from the same root.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 30, 2006)

Flying Crane

Cool, Thank You.

 I have read about southern systems and I have a friend that is a Wing Chun person, but as for my Kung fu it has been primarily Northern. And my understanding, and I admit my previous description was worded poorly and/or I could be entirely wrong. 

I should not have used "movement" What I meant was 'distance" ground covered.

Xingyi can cover a large distance in a short time; Shaolin has cartwheels and flips in order to move away or closer faster. 

My understanding of the difference between North and South styles came from terrain. There was simply more open space in the North.

Am I close to right or WAAAAAAY of base?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Flying Crane
> 
> Cool, Thank You.
> 
> ...


 
I think in general you are correct.  It is just that once we move beyond the general sense and look at specific examples, we see that the generalities often aren't as accurate.

My sifu also teaches a lot of shaolin material so I am familiar with that and understand the kind of ground that is covered.  I have also studied Wing Chun so I know how compact that system is.  I have had opportunity to witness things like Bok Mei, Mantis, Choy Li Fut, Hung Gar, Bagua, and Hsing-I.  I would say that Shaolin is the best example of the stereotypical northern system and Wing Chun would be the best and most extreme example of a southern style.  But then Choy Li Fut is much more like a northern style even tho it is southern.

My point is that I think it is just difficult to make a real Northern/Southern categorization that is accurate more than about 30% of the time.  While I find it interesting to know where styles originated from, I think getting hung up on these kinds of categorizations isn't the best way to look at them.  I prefer to look at the system for what it is and not worry about what kind of techniques it "should" have based on where it came from.

This is just how I prefer to relate to things.  Maybe it gives you something to ponder.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> While I find it interesting to know where styles originated from, I think getting hung up on these kinds of categorizations isn't the best way to look at them. I prefer to look at the system for what it is and not worry about what kind of techniques it "should" have based on where it came from.


 
I agree and thank you for the clarification.

So basically if I look at the 2 extremes, those being Shaolin and Wing Chun the differences are obvious but beyond that the difference are much more subtle. 

And just to clarify, I am not trying to say one is better than the other. I just have more experience with Northern styles. The Southern Styles I have seen, mostly Wing Chun and a little Choy Li Fut, have been very impressive.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I agree and thank you for the clarification.
> 
> So basically if I look at the 2 extremes, those being Shaolin and Wing Chun the differences are obvious but beyond that the difference are much more subtle.
> 
> And just to clarify, I am not trying to say one is better than the other. I just have more experience with Northern styles. The Southern Styles I have seen, mostly Wing Chun and a little Choy Li Fut, have been very impressive.


 
I think we are understand each other and are in agreement.


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## Gaoguy (Jan 31, 2006)

I think Fuhok is more Fujian based than Lama.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

Gaoguy said:
			
		

> I think Fuhok is more Fujian based than Lama.


 
I know almost nothing about Fujian Crane, but did see a few video clips of some of their forms.  Very interesting, and very very different than Tibetan Crane.

It is entirely possible that Fu Hok has Fujian influences.  I certainly don't know enough about it to dispute that.  But there are definitely elements that are Tibetan, like the Pou Choi and Baht Gim punches that are found in the set.  These are classical, signature Tibetan techniques.  You see similar things in Choy Lay Fut as well.

According to my sifu, a close friend of Wong Fei-Hung's father was a highly accomplished Lama/Tibetan Crane practitioner and this is where the influence came from.  I can't point to documentation to prove it, but this is what I have been told.

Just to clarify, the name White Crane was not attached to the system until the early-mid 1900s.  Prior to this, it was known in China as Lama and Hop Gar.  According to the creation myth, in the 1400s or so, a Tibetan Lama was meditating in the mountains when he witnessed a fight between a Crane and a "mountain ape" of some kind (I guess there is a species of Macaque that lives in some areas of Tibet; not a true ape, but a good sized monkey).  From this fight, the monk devised the system.  

I am not going to argue about the historical accuracy of this story.  I don't think it matters.  But the system is supposedly based on movements of the Crane and the Ape.  So, attaching the name Crane, even at such a later date, is not entirely inappropriate.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 31, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Basically I think the distinction is usefull in explaining systems but fails to really capture the essence of any of the styles. I feel that a truly complete system will contain the best principles or techniques regardless of Northern or Southern distinction. I can see both "northern" and "southern" in many arts as I can see both "internal" and "external". So, I guess I would say take the distinction for a grain of salt and understand that its simply a way to classify and attempt to describe the methods of a system, not in any way a complete explination of any one style.
> 
> Ok, off my soap box...
> 7sm


 
I think 7* has some good point here, and I will try to elaborate a bit.

Lets suppose there is a continuum, one end being Wing Chun representing the extreme Southern Style, and the other end being Northern Shaolin Longfist, representing the extreme Northern Style.  (I am just using these styles as examples, not making any other implications here.  This is just for the sake of discussion).

Each of these styles has certain stylistic characteristics that make it Northern or Southern.  Other styles would fit somewhere on this continuum, some closer to Northern, others closer to Southern, some in the middle.  But most would fall where they do for different reasons from each other.

Maybe there would need to be several continuums: stances, movement, kicking; punching.  Each style would fall on the different continuums based on these aspects of the style.  So in regard to kicking, one style might be closer to Northern, but in regard to punching the same system might be closer to Southern.  

What I am trying to do here is just illustrate how difficult it becomes to fit any style into a general categorization like this.  There is no way to really measure and and quantify these arts.  I think point of origin is really the only good way to categorize an art as Northern or Southern, but stylistically it is just much more murky.

In addition to this, there is much more cross-training and borrowing from one style to another in modern times, then there was a few generations ago.  Martial arts are no longer kept in such secrecy, and we are able to travel much more to train and see different things.  People learn things and incorporate them into their parent style and the parent style changes based on this.  This is another reason why it is difficult to make this kind of classification.

Sorry to ramble on like this, but these thoughts were just floating around in my head so I decided to try and share them.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> In addition to this, there is much more cross-training and borrowing from one style to another in modern times, then there was a few generations ago. Martial arts are no longer kept in such secrecy, and we are able to travel much more to train and see different things. People learn things and incorporate them into their parent style and the parent style changes based on this. This is another reason why it is difficult to make this kind of classification.


 
Good point, I would imagine as China's political system changed, for instance when Mao came to power, many Northern stylists moved south which would add to that mix. 

For example Yang Tai Chi comes from the North, but Yang Cheng fu taught in the south. Also today there is more freedom to move in China allowing Southern and Northern Stylist to move. 

I was recently given a DVD from Beijing of a martial art I had not heard of, turns out it was Wing Chun with the Mandarin name instead of the Cantonese name. Once I have the name, I will let you know what it is, if you are interested.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 1, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Once I have the name, I will let you know what it is, if you are interested.


 
Yes, let us know what it is called.  That would be interesting.


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2006)

Wing Chun in Mandarin oughtta be Yong Chun. Could be off on that, but at least something close to it.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> Wing Chun in Mandarin oughtta be Yong Chun. Could be off on that, but at least something close to it.


 
You are correct sir.

The name on the DVD is Yong Chun Quan. The person doing the form is Peng, Shusong

It is, I think is the first form in Wing Chun - (Also mandarin) Xian Lian Tou.

And now that I have read the small print on the back it is obvious, it talks about Southern Boxing and I quote
It was Bruce Lee who introduced Yong Chun to the world

I don't feel to bad, I know people from Beijing that know what Yong Chun Quan is but do not associate it with Wing Chun, Bruce Lee or Lee Jun Fan. I guess I should have asked them if they new Li Xuànj&#299;n instead, but then again I just found out what his name was in Mandarin.


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## clfsean (Feb 1, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> You are correct sir.
> 
> The name on the DVD is Yong Chun Quan. The person doing the form is Peng, Shusong




Don't know him, but bully on for him. Also no "sir" lives here. 



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> It is, I think is the first form in Wing Chun - (Also mandarin) Xian Lian Tou.
> 
> And now that I have read the small print on the back it is obvious, it talks about Southern Boxing and I quote
> It was Bruce Lee who introduced Yong Chun to the world


 
Siu Lum Tao... Little Idea. 



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I don't feel to bad, I know people from Beijing that know what Yong Chun Quan is but do not associate it with Wing Chun, Bruce Lee or Lee Jun Fan. I guess I should have asked them if they new Li Xuànj&#299;n instead, but then again I just found out what his name was in Mandarin.


 
Well Bruce Lee may have got the world wide attention to Wing Chun, but he was an unfinished student that if I remember right didn't get past the 2nd set (Chum Kiu) but was a decent enough streetfighter.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 1, 2006)

clfsean said:
			
		

> [/color]
> Well Bruce Lee may have got the world wide attention to Wing Chun, but he was an unfinished student that if I remember right didn't get past the 2nd set (Chum Kiu) but was a decent enough streetfighter.


 
I just had a chance to ask someone from Beijing, and they didn't know who Li Xuànj&#299;n, but they knew Jet Li. And I was not aware that Bruce Lee did not go that far in Wing Chun with Yip Mann. But now I am getting way off subject.

Back on subject, this seems to show that there has been quite a mixture of Northern and Southern styles.

Thanks for the info.


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## CrushingFist (Mar 1, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Look at were they were developed
> North - more open space
> South - small narrow streets
> 
> ...


 
I'd second that!
Also, I read that usually southern people were shorter and builder. And northern were taller


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## funnytiger (Mar 1, 2006)

I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned that I'VE seen as a very southern thing is the low solid stances, especially in sei ping ma. Southern systems seem (to me) to be more rooted than northern systems.

You know what's funny though? When I think Southern systems I don't think of Wing Chun first. I think of Hung Ga as being a classic southern system. Deep rooted stances and powerful movements.

But that's just me. And I AM a little biased.


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## MartialIntent (Mar 1, 2006)

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Look at were they were developed
> North - more open space
> South - small narrow streets
> 
> ...


I think in general this is true. I think the question itself leads to the simplification. Obviously there's no clear break between northern and southern but I think the above descriptions hold in general nonetheless.

I practised a southern style [Lau Gar - similar to Hung Family KF] for many years. It utilises much closer contact and less of the beautiful flamboyant spinning kicks etc. than perhaps used by more northerly originating styles. To me, northern styles were always much more "romantic" than us poor southern stylists. We're the bread-and-butter, get-the-job-done folk though!!

Respects!


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## 7starmantis (Mar 1, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I think one thing that hasn't been mentioned that I'VE seen as a very southern thing is the low solid stances, especially in sei ping ma. Southern systems seem (to me) to be more rooted than northern systems.
> 
> You know what's funny though? When I think Southern systems I don't think of Wing Chun first. I think of Hung Ga as being a classic southern system. Deep rooted stances and powerful movements.
> 
> But that's just me. And I AM a little biased.



Yeah, but thats the problem I have with the distinction. Look at Wah Lum, they have very low solid stances. In fact we hold horse stance low enough to lay a staff across the legs, and we are considered northern (7* mantis).

7sm


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## funnytiger (Mar 1, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Yeah, but thats the problem I have with the distinction. Look at Wah Lum, they have very low solid stances. In fact we hold horse stance low enough to lay a staff across the legs, and we are considered northern (7* mantis).
> 
> 7sm


 
Hmm... good point. But is that something that is prevalent in Northern styles or is 7* an anomaly in that sense? I would say that a majority of southern styles use the deep rooted stances.

But again. I'm biased.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 1, 2006)

Well, Wah Lum is a northern style, and they use very low stances. I would say probably that most 7* schools use higher stances than we do so that may be a point I have to concede. I think our low stances may be from a wah lum influence anyway. Although alot of the "shaolin" I see uses quite low stances as well.

Who knows
7sm


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## funnytiger (Mar 1, 2006)

7starmantis said:
			
		

> Well, Wah Lum is a northern style, and they use very low stances. I would say probably that most 7* schools use higher stances than we do so that may be a point I have to concede. I think our low stances may be from a wah lum influence anyway. Although alot of the "shaolin" I see uses quite low stances as well.
> 
> Who knows
> 7sm


 
I was aware that Wah Lum was a northern style, but didn't realize that they used such low stances. Maybe you can clear up something for me then. What is the relationship between Wah Lum and 7*? I thought they were one in the same, but obviously I was wrong?

Are these low northern stances "rooted" like the southern low stances? I guess that would be the key distinguishing characteristic.

With all respect.


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## 7starmantis (Mar 1, 2006)

funnytiger said:
			
		

> I was aware that Wah Lum was a northern style, but didn't realize that they used such low stances. Maybe you can clear up something for me then. What is the relationship between Wah Lum and 7*? I thought they were one in the same, but obviously I was wrong?
> 
> Are these low northern stances "rooted" like the southern low stances? I guess that would be the key distinguishing characteristic.
> 
> With all respect.


Well, lets see...
Wah Lum and 7 Star are similar in that they are both mantis systems developed (in my opinion) from the same source. Wah Lum tends to be a bit flashier with more jumping and high kicks, alot of cardio type movements as well. In my opinion, Wah Lum forms (at least intermediate to advanced) are very taxing on the body. We call our Wah Lum sets the "wind sets" in that they are very "winding" or highly cardiovascular. That doesn't mean our advanced 7* sets are not, it just seems Wah Lum uses more cardio type movements. The fighting is a bit harder to interpret from the forms in Wah Lum as it tends to be a bit more flashy. I think Wah Lum may expend a bit more energy than 7* does, but thats really getting into principles and such. I think 7* star is probably a more aggressive or destructive system, but like you say, I'm biased  Of course I have studied both Wah Lum and 7*. 

I think the point of low stances is the rooting, so most systems that teach low stances focus on rooting. In fact ,that is why my lineage has barrowed the low stances from Wah Lum, to teach and focus on rooting. I dont think rooting and low stances are one and the same, and I believe rooting can be done apart from low stances, but for beginners, low stances really helps teach the idea of rooting. We do practice a paradox of rooting yet staying light on the feet in case you must move...one of the many seemingly paradoxial practices we train.

7sm


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## CrushingFist (Mar 1, 2006)

I use to practice Hung Ga when I was 14,15,16 on and off. I' was 5'10-6'2 when I was practicing Hung Ga yes I'm tall and we use to do a lot of horse stance and short-range applications so yes definately hung ga could be the best example. 

I remember reading in the traditional ways, a hung ga student would practice horse stance for 3hours for 3years before learning a different move.


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