# Israel and Hamas: War looms



## Bill Mattocks (Nov 16, 2012)

For those who have not been following this developing story...

1) For the past several weeks, Hamas has been lobbing missiles into Israel.
2) Israel started striking back.
3) Yesterday, Israel targeted and killed the Hamas leader as he drove in a car on a public street.
4) Egypt recalled their Ambassador to Israel in protest.
5) Hamas has begun lobbing missiles into Tel Aviv.
6) Israel has called up all their reserve military forces to full active status.

And...here we go.

http://www.businessweek.com/news/20...gaza-targets-as-air-strike-kills-hamas-leader



> Tel Aviv Sounds Air-Raid Warning as Israel Extends Gaza Strikes
> Air-raid sirens sounded for a second day in Tel Aviv and an explosion was heard in the city as Israel extended its bombing of Gaza and militant groups fired rockets at the Jewish state.
> 
> Egypts prime minister, Hisham Qandil, visited Gaza today and called for an international effort to end the violence there, saying that the world should take responsibility in stopping this aggression. Israels army said it has deployed tanks near the Gaza border and called up reservists.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2012)

Israel has never not been at war. Always someone wants to wipe it off the face of the earth. 
Nice too to know how the media is treating Israel as the bad guys again.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2012)

How the IDF tries to minimise civilian casualties.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTEDVC5ZqPA&feature=share




However Hamas and it's allies want to destroy all Israelis. An Israeli baby hurt in a rocket attack on Israels omething the media doesn't like to show.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 16, 2012)

Where is the coverage and outrage at the 3 Israeli civilians killed in the latest attacks?

We all know how this thread is going to devolve...


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 16, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Where is the coverage and outrage at the 3 Israeli civilians killed in the latest attacks?
> 
> We all know how this thread is going to devolve...



I am posting about what is happening.  I have not taken a side, and if you think I have said anything that is untrue, let me know.  I have exhibited no outrage at all, at either side.  Nor has anyone at this point given a pro-Hamas statement that I've seen.


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## granfire (Nov 16, 2012)

I just got home from Europe. Watched very little news....

But what struck me: The attacks are not just somewhere, but near the Golan Heights

Yes, I might be getting things mixed up but this is fueled by the civil war in Syria.

It seemed to me that the attacks aimed at Israel were aimed to form a barrier that fugitives cannot cross.

Israel has never really stood still when the borders were violated (to my memory, no major violations anyway), so with the Army at the ready, and shooting back, civilians will get clobbered. Not that their own people cared about them, but they make good news for the bad guys.

Something similar is happening at the Syrian/Turkish border. There have been many violations of the border on that end also. I can only assume to tighten the crossings from the other side so the people can't leave. 

In both cases, I cannot fathom why anybody would want to spread the conflict. 
Turkey is - even if unsteady at times - a NATO partner....and if Israel were to get serious, only burned earth would remain. And I don't mean that in a negative way either. 

I am just looking at the situation and wonder. 

(and no, the Syrian rebels are no angels either)



Unless of course Iran is paying the puppets to draw attention away from them. Which would work in both cases.


(I seem to recollect that there are quiet a few Palestinians though who, caught in the Hamas ruled territories, don't really care for their politics much. But it seems they don't have the means to escape them either)


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 16, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am posting about what is happening.  I have not taken a side, and if you think I have said anything that is untrue, let me know.  I have exhibited no outrage at all, at either side.  Nor has anyone at this point given a pro-Hamas statement that I've seen.


She was just being preemptive.


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## Tez3 (Nov 16, 2012)

I wasn't answering Bill at all, didn't quote him either, all I was doing was pointing out that all the bias of the media is coming out. I understood what Bill had written wasn't judgemental...unlike the press.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 16, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I am posting about what is happening.  I have not taken a side, and if you think I have said anything that is untrue, let me know.  I have exhibited no outrage at all, at either side.  Nor has anyone at this point given a pro-Hamas statement that I've seen.



Not directed at you, Bill. Like Tez said, just overall coverage. Plenty of media coverage of the air stikes, not so much of the rocket attacks, other than to say that they are in retaliation for the air stikes.   :barf:


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## CanuckMA (Nov 16, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> She was just being preemptive.



Ahem, Bill was respnoding to me. Last I checked, I'm either a guy, or in desparate need of electrolysis.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> I just got home from Europe. Watched very little news....
> 
> But what struck me: The attacks are not just somewhere, but near the Golan Heights
> 
> ...




Two different things. Syrians have lobbed mortar fire at Israel "by mistake". That's in the Golan, North West part of the country.

Hamas has increased their rocket attacks in the South East. They have also started to target Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem. I just can't wait to see the reaction if one of those highly inacurate rocket hits the Al-Aqsa mosque...


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## granfire (Nov 16, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Two different things. Syrians have lobbed mortar fire at Israel "by mistake". That's in the Golan, North West part of the country.
> 
> Hamas has increased their rocket attacks in the South East. They have also started to target Tel Aviv, and Jerusalem. I just can't wait to see the reaction if one of those highly inacurate rocket hits the Al-Aqsa mosque...



The timing sure is suspicious.....


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## CanuckMA (Nov 16, 2012)

granfire said:


> The timing sure is suspicious.....



There's also romours that Hizbollah may be planning something in Lebanon. They just finished a large exercise. Either a coup or an invasion of Israel. We may be looking at an allout shooting war soon. Perhaps it's just that time again, where Israel shows the Arab nations what happens when they take the restrains off their military.


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## WC_lun (Nov 16, 2012)

I have a sneaking suspicion Iran is playing puppet master in this flare up.  Iran is the only country substantially backing the Syrian government at this point.  Even selling them weapons.  Hamas has all of the sudden gained the ability to attack Jeruselum with Iranian made rockets.  This comes right as a nuclear arms inspector is being allowed to inspect an Iranian nuclear facility.  Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but it seems to me, the only player that can gain any advantage from any of this is Iran.  We also know they are not above sowing a little chaos in the area for thier own advantage.


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## granfire (Nov 16, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> I have a sneaking suspicion Iran is playing puppet master in this flare up.  Iran is the only country substantially backing the Syrian government at this point.  Even selling them weapons.  Hamas has all of the sudden gained the ability to attack Jeruselum with Iranian made rockets.  This comes right as a nuclear arms inspector is being allowed to inspect an Iranian nuclear facility.  Perhaps I'm just a cynic, but it seems to me, the only player that can gain any advantage from any of this is Iran.  We also know they are not above sowing a little chaos in the area for thier own advantage.



Seems like they are the big winners when the world is not looking at them but the kicked up dust....


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## Big Don (Nov 16, 2012)

The Arab v Israeli conflict:
Arabs blow stuff up
Israel stands strong
Arabs blow stuff up
Israel blows up Arabs
Arabs scream they are being oppressed


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2012)

Remember the picture of the Israeli baby I posted? the Jewish baby who's parents were killed in the rocket attack, it's being used as a 'Palestinian baby' to show how bad the Israelis are. You'd think the Hebrew writing on the medics badge would give it away somehow that she's Jewish wouldn't you.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Remember the picture of the Israeli baby I posted? the Jewish baby who's parents were killed in the rocket attack, it's being used as a 'Palestinian baby' to show how bad the Israelis are. You'd think the Hebrew writing on the medics badge would give it away somehow that she's Jewish wouldn't you.


As a matter of fact, no. I wouldn't know the difference, or have been looking to ensure the race of the baby.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2012)

Touch Of Death said:


> As a matter of fact, no. I wouldn't know the difference, or have been looking to ensure the race of the baby.



the Israeli medic gives it away a bit as you wouldn't find him in Gaza.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> the Israeli medic gives it away a bit as you wouldn't find him in Gaza.


I see.


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## Big Don (Nov 17, 2012)

Faking photos isn't a new trick... (2007)




_An  elderly Iraqi woman shows two bullets which she says hit her house  following an early coalition forces raid in the predominantly Shiite  Baghdad suburb of Sadr City. At least 175 people were slaughtered on  Tuesday and more than 200 wounded when four suicide truck bombs targeted  people from an ancient religious sect in northern Iraq, officials said.  (AFP/Wissam al-Okaili)_


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 17, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Faking photos isn't a new trick... (2007)
> 
> 
> 
> _An  elderly Iraqi woman shows two bullets which she says hit her house  following an early coalition forces raid in the predominantly Shiite  Baghdad suburb of Sadr City. At least 175 people were slaughtered on  Tuesday and more than 200 wounded when four suicide truck bombs targeted  people from an ancient religious sect in northern Iraq, officials said.  (AFP/Wissam al-Okaili)_


I guess you had to be there.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 17, 2012)

Hmm, mysterious bullets that manage to be fired and yet at the same time retain their cartridges ... new physics?  Or old (and not very clever) politics?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 17, 2012)

Sukerkin said:


> Hmm, mysterious bullets that manage to be fired and yet at the same time retain their cartridges ... new physics?  Or old (and not very clever) politics?



Holy ****! More magic bullets! Arlon Spector's ghost is a traitor!


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

The bullet on the left is the one that killed Kennedy


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2012)

Israel has got to settle the Palestine issue...how to do that, I have no idea. If both sides would keep their religion private rather than making it state policy, that'd help. Religiously-organized states are problematic around the world. Yes, I get that Israel is there for that purpose...I don't have a rational solution for this irrational problem.


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## Tez3 (Nov 17, 2012)

Religion has nothing to do with the Middle East conflict, it's about *land, water and power*. Religion is the very last thing it's about.


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## Big Don (Nov 17, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Israel has got to settle the Palestine issue...how to do that, I have no idea. If both sides would keep their religion private rather than making it state policy, that'd help. Religiously-organized states are problematic around the world. Yes, I get that Israel is there for that purpose...I don't have a rational solution for this irrational problem.


There are Muslim members of the Israeli government, Israel is NOT a theocracy. Nor, is it, like "palestine" a thugocracy.


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

Nuke the entire region and be done with it. If they can't find a way to live together let them ****ing die together.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Israel has got to settle the Palestine issue...how to do that, I have no idea. If both sides would keep their religion private rather than making it state policy, that'd help. Religiously-organized states are problematic around the world. Yes, I get that Israel is there for that purpose...I don't have a rational solution for this irrational problem.



Israel is mostly secular. The conflict is not about religion. The conflict is about the Arab states being butt hurt because the Jews were given their tiny bit of desert back. And were then successful at transforming it into a democratic and economic powerhouse, while they opress their populations in ********s. 

The conflict would be resolved very quicly by simply having the Arab staes recognize Israel as a country, and sitting down to negotiate borders they can all live with.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> Nuke the entire region and be done with it. If they can't find a way to live together let them ****ing die together.



Thanks for being so understanding about my family and friends, and not caring about killing 50% of a people.


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Religion has nothing to do with the Middle East conflict[...]Religion is the very last thing it's about.



Well...that's certainly a novel position to take.


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Thanks for being so understanding about my family and friends, and not caring about killing 50% of a people.



Gee, I thought we were talking about two peoples here, Israeli and Palestinian, or aren't you worried at all for 'the other'.


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## WC_lun (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> Nuke the entire region and be done with it. If they can't find a way to live together let them ****ing die together.



This has to be one of the most ignorant post I have ever read.  How murdering millions of people sound like anything close to a valid answer is beyond me.


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Israel is mostly secular. The conflict is not about religion. The conflict is about the Arab states being butt hurt because the Jews were given their tiny bit of desert back.



Why was it their part of the desert? Remember, religion isn't a factor--don't use that in your answer.

Mostly secular? Their courts use religious law all the time.


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> This has to be one of the most ignorant post I have ever read.  How murdering millions of people sound like anything close to a valid answer is beyond me.


When neither side is interested in peace the only other option is war without end.

Quite frankly I'm sick to death of the entire Middle-East situation and our countries being dragged into it by leaders who lack both spine and conviction.

It's never going to change. There is too much hate on both sides and a lot of it is justified. We should back out and leave the combatants to their own devices.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Why was it their part of the desert? Remember, religion isn't a factor--don't use that in your answer.
> 
> Mostly secular? Their courts use religious law all the time.



It's called archeology. Jews have been in that land for thousands of years.

The Israeli justice system uses Jewish Law the same way as the US uses Xtian law.

The only part of true Halacha found there, as it is in a lot of Western countries, is allowing WILLING parties to settle civil disputes through a Rabbinic Court.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> When neither side is interested in peace the only other option is war without end.
> 
> Quite frankly I'm sick to death of the entire Middle-East situation and our countries being dragged into it by leaders who lack both spine and conviction.
> 
> It's never going to change. There is too much hate on both sides and a lot of it is justified. We should back out and leave the combatants to their own devices.



Israel is very much commited to peace. It's just hard to negotiate with countries who don't even want to recognize your right to exist.


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## CanuckMA (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> Gee, I thought we were talking about two peoples here, Israeli and Palestinian, or aren't you worried at all for 'the other'.



Yes I care about the other side as well. Maybe it's because my parents survived a genocide that killed 1/3 of my people, nut I'm a tad sensitive when folks start talking about eliminating the Jews.


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> Yes I care about the other side as well. Maybe it's because my parents survived a genocide that killed 1/3 of my people, nut I'm a tad sensitive when folks start talking about eliminating the Jews.


There are more than Jews in the middle east. Muslims, Christians and god knows who else are also there.

And the Jewish Holocaust was my grandfather's generation, not mine. I'm going to neither forget nor forgive it, but I'm not going to be held hostage by it either.


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## Big Don (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> There are more than Jews in the middle east. Muslims, Christians and god knows who else are also there.
> 
> And the Jewish Holocaust was my grandfather's generation, not mine. I'm going to neither forget nor forgive it, but I'm not going to be held hostage by it either.


But, you will stand idly by and watch as people in "palestine" and elsewhere continually try to recreate it.
I'm impressed.


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## arnisador (Nov 17, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> It's called archeology. Jews have been in that land for thousands of years.



...and the Palestinians moved there from Cuba 30 years ago? By this logic we should give Georgia and the Carolinas back to the Cherokee.



CanuckMA said:


> Israel is very much commited to peace. It's just hard to negotiate with countries who don't even want to recognize your right to exist.



The second sentence is true--the first has less evidence to support it. That commitment to peace is a desire to be left alone with things as they are.

I'm mostly for Israel in this matter but they have to find a solution. It's incumbent upon them to do so--they control the land.


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

Big Don said:


> But, you will stand idly by and watch as people in "palestine" and elsewhere continually try to recreate it.
> I'm impressed.



Gee, Don, you're trying to make it sound as though I support one side over the other. Reading comprehension not up to snuff?


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## Big Don (Nov 17, 2012)

Scott T said:


> Gee, Don, you're trying to make it sound as though I support one side over the other. Reading comprehension not up to snuff?





> We must take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.


[h=1]Elie Wiesel[/h]Oh, I am impressed by your ability to overlook thousands of instances of terrorism committed against Israelis. If your next door neighbor occasionally shot at your house, would you just sit there, or would you take steps to make him stop?
Heh, I clicked "Reply with quote" and I did...


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## Scott T (Nov 17, 2012)

Big Don said:


> *Elie Wiesel*
> 
> Oh, I am impressed by your ability to overlook thousands of instances of terrorism committed against Israelis. If your next door neighbor occasionally shot at your house, would you just sit there, or would you take steps to make him stop?
> Heh, I clicked "Reply with quote" and I did...



No, I don't overlook it. I also don't overlook the fact that Israel has -- quite possibly -- the best equipped and trained military establishment in the world or that they also like to aggravate the situation by setting up illegal outposts on occupied lands.

They don't need us, they just like the sympathy.


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## Big Don (Nov 18, 2012)

If my neighbors frequently fired at my home, you can bet your *** I would shake them down on their way home from work. 
Prudence, when carried out by Israelis is treated as wrong.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 18, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Well...that's certainly a novel position to take.


Unique to say the least.


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 18, 2012)

Scott T said:


> Nuke the entire region and be done with it. If they can't find a way to live together let them ****ing die together.


The less one understands about a people so far away, the quicker they come to this solution. 
Sean


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

Scott T said:


> No, I don't overlook it. I also don't overlook the fact that Israel has -- quite possibly -- the best equipped and trained military establishment in the world or that they also like to aggravate the situation by setting up illegal outposts on occupied lands.
> 
> They don't need us, they just like the sympathy.



We don't just like the sympathy, sympathy gets you no where. However I would spare some sympathy for your lack of education and not knowing any history. America along with the Uk is responsible for what happened in the Middle East because after the First World War it divided the Middle East into chunks allotting rulers for each. The borders of the countries were drawn up without any thought to tribal or national populations. Israel, Palestine as it was then was given to the UK as a Protectorate. In 1919 the British promised Palestine would be a Jewish country as it was reckoned by law it belonged to the Jews. Despite what you may think not all Jewish people left there. The British however reneged on the agreement, the Second World War started, the Mufti of Jerusalem allied with Hitler, became his 'good friend' and preached the Nazi word, the British threw him out he went to live in Germany. After the War and the Holocaust the Jews wanted the British to honour the Balfour Agreement and let them live in Palestine. The British didn't agrre, packed many off to a concentration camp in Cyprus however the Jews persisted and despite the British arming the Arabs and confiscating the arms from the Jews ( though some soldiers did help the Jews) gained Israel first by fighting for Independance ( just like America did) then legally (just like America). In the Declaration of Independance everyone was declared equal citizens of Israel, Jews, Muslims, Christians everyone. Before the war I will point out that the Arabs *happily sold* great tracts of land to Jews making it legally acquired land, it wasn't until the Jews irrigated and made the land green they thought they would take it back.


The Palestinian refugees you see today are the ones that were told by their leaders to leave their homes because they were going to drive the Israelis into the sea and destroy them forever. They were told that when the Jews were gone they could have their land, homes and 'wealth'. Sadly for them the Jews weren't driven into the sea and they were forgotten about by their leaders. Huge amounts of money given by other countries to help them relocate to somewhere better 'disappeared'. As a side note the authorities want to dig up Yasser Arafat ( the Nazi Mufti of Jerusalems nephew btw) because they believe now he was murdered and by his own not the Israelis, it's all about the money.

You may think history is something dead and gone but it comes back and bites you in the ****, that's why you learn it and hopefully learn _from _it.

As for dropping a nuclear bomb on the region, that would be a good way to wipe out most of the world, I take it your geography is as poor as your history. 

Hamas is a terror organisation, not just against Israel but what is probably worse against it's own people, If Israel didn't exist do you honestly think there would be peace when the Syrians are massacring each other as are the Egyptians, the Iranians hate the West notably America because they put the Shah on the throne, the Iraqies hate the west because of two wars, they hate the Iranians because of their wars. The Muslims are killing Christians in Lebanon, a good many of these countries are killing Kurds. Kuwait is busy bumping off Palestinians because of their siding with Iraq during the Gulf Wars. In Yemen they are fighting each other. Israel actually is only a small part of the problem out there and the only country willing to make peace with anyone. 

What happens in the past affect the present and the future, if after the First World War the Allies hadn't been so keen to carve up territories then none of this would be happening now so yes America, France the GB are in a large way responsible for what is happening there now. the arabs know this and hold us responsible so if there were no israel they would still be a huge threat to the world, where and why do you think Al Queda gets so much support? Look at the indentities of the 9/11 terrorists and those caught since. don't think the Arab worlds hatred is confined to Israel, don't think either that Israel is anything more than an irritant to them, it's America and the UK they want to hit back at, this hatred has been fermenting a very long time. We put the ruling houses in control and a huge amount of people hate us for that. The Saudi Royal family was nothing more than local tribal chiefs till we made them 'royalty', same in amny places. Our interference there _has never stopped _and they hate us for it.

As I can't believe someone can't be so lacking in knowledge of history, geography and current world affairs I must conclude you are actually trolling with the intention of causing outrage and/hurt. I'm answering not for you but for anyone who does actually not know what is behind it all. The religion doesn't matter, it's an excuse people make when they want soemthing the other side has. A good majority of land in Israel that wasn't already Jewish owned because the Jews hadn't left, was sold to the Jews by the arabs. When it became fit to use after a lot of work the Arabs wanted it back. If religion was the point of the war Hamas wouldn't be firing rockets at Jerusalem a city held sacred by them and the home of many devout Muslims. 

If you aren't trolling read the history of the world ( perhaps the history of America too), learn geography and think before opening your mouth, then you will have an opinion that isn't ignorant . You don't have to agree with us but you could argue from an educated point of view then rather than a 'dur, let's nuke everyone', it's hardly going to sort anything out only causing more problems than it sorts besides it just sounds so silly.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

As for dropping a nuclear bomb on people would you wish this on anyone? I wouldn't, *not anyone.

this contains graphic pictures and really isn't for those who are sensitive but on the other hand you really should look before saying nuclear weapons are the answer.
http://www.mctv.ne.jp/~bigapple/



*


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> As for dropping a nuclear bomb on people would you wish this on anyone? I wouldn't, *not anyone.
> 
> this contains graphic pictures and really isn't for those who are sensitive but on the other hand you really should look before saying nuclear weapons are the answer.
> http://www.mctv.ne.jp/~bigapple/
> ...



Ironic, considering the one currently nuclear armed country in the region....


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## Big Don (Nov 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Ironic, considering the one currently nuclear armed country in the region....



Yeah, the one least likely to use them...


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Ironic, considering the one currently nuclear armed country in the region....



Well I was wondering whose nuclear weapons he was advocating using, presumably America's.
Israel, as everyone knows, doesn't have nuclear weapons.....


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## CanuckMA (Nov 18, 2012)

Scott T said:


> And the Jewish Holocaust was my grandfather's generation, not mine. I'm going to neither forget nor forgive it, but I'm not going to be held hostage by it either.



It's not abouit being held hostage to it. For you, it's a paragraph in a book. For me, it's the numbers on my parent's arms. It's the eason why gathering the entire family was the 5 of us. Why it's still less than a dozen. It's folks I interact with daily who have num,bers on their arms. It's real. And when someone talks about doing it again, it strikes a nerve.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> It's not abouit being held hostage to it. For you, it's a paragraph in a book. For me, it's the numbers on my parent's arms. It's the eason why gathering the entire family was the 5 of us. Why it's still less than a dozen. It's folks I interact with daily who have num,bers on their arms. It's real. And when someone talks about doing it again, it strikes a nerve.



Same with my family and many I know. My daughter, my youngest is 27 and has only known of my family, my parents, no one else.

To advocate genocide, well there's nothing that can be said. 
America reacted to 9/11 by invading Afghanistan where they believed the murderers were based, yet Israel is considered to blame for defending itself. If Israel is wiped off the face off the earth, then the radical Muslims will be looking to destroy the West including America, or perhaps especially America next. Far fetched? think of multiple 0/11s, the constant fear of attacks, the fear is already there but it will be trebled more even when there's no Israel. The entire Middle East will be focused on the West.
http://markhumphrys.com/islamism.nightmares.html


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## granfire (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Well I was wondering whose nuclear weapons he was advocating using, presumably America's.
> Israel, as everyone knows, doesn't have nuclear weapons.....



I am sure the Germans can send them some....the German people want to get rid of them, BAD!

(and of course, it's tongue in cheek....the Middle East glowing in the dark is bad for business)


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Israel, as everyone knows, doesn't have nuclear weapons.....



Wink-wink. Nudge-nudge. 

It's generally accepted in the community that they have between 80 and 200, and has been for the better part of 30 years-long before Jimmy Carter became the first person to outright say what everyone already knew..and even longer before Mordecai Vanunu-a technician at Demona for a decade-was sent to prison by Israel for saying as much. Sophisticated design, based on the French-less than 8lbs., and possibly less than 5 lbs. of weapons grade plutonium, from material initially provided by South Africa and refined at their Demona reactor complex. Low yield, high thermal yield, meaning less fallout from dropping them on their neighbors.

Mostly tactical weapons _*that are meant to be used*_, rather than theater weapons meant as a deterrent.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

However in all these years despite all the aggression, attacks, the Israeli deaths and perhaps the temptation to use them Israel never has.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)




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## CanuckMA (Nov 18, 2012)

The capabilities and the temptation was very much there during the 1973 war, when Israel faced the most credible threat of anihilation in it's existence. But the decision was made that until atacked that way, they were not going to resort to any kind of WMD. 

As far as the elction is concerned, attacking Israel is the best way to ensure a hard line right wing government will be elected. As rocket attacks mount, 600 from the start of the year to before this latest round, the Israeli public turns more and more to the right.


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> However in all these years despite all the aggression, attacks, the Israeli deaths and perhaps the temptation to use them Israel never has.



Well, that's a far cry from "Israel has no nuclear weapons, " isn't it? And therein lies the rub-to use them would be to _declare _them.

And, in fairness to Israel, not declaring them was probably a far more effective deterrent than using them.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Well, that's a far cry from "Israel has no nuclear weapons, " isn't it? And therein lies the rub-to use them would be to _declare _them.
> 
> And, in fairness to Israel, not declaring them was probably a far more effective deterrent than using them.



Perhaps I should have put a little note beside my comment about Israel not having nuclear weapons so it would be known the comment was tongue in cheek, still I did think _you'd _know ...


----------



## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Perhaps I should have put a little note beside my comment about Israel not having nuclear weapons so it would be known the comment was tongue in cheek, still I did think _you'd _know ...




Pet peeve. Not a joking matter to someone with a career like mine.

Transistioned out a few years ago, and *still* have the occasional nightmare.....:uhoh:


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Pet peeve. Not a joking matter to someone with a career like mine.
> 
> Transistioned out a few years ago, and *still* have the occasional nightmare.....:uhoh:




Did I say it was a joke, far from it, tongue in cheek, doesn't mean it's a laughing matter especially when it's my people someone is talking about wiping out. It's ironic in the sense of irony not sarcasm. I know Americans think irony and sarcasm are the same they aren't however, quite different things.


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Did I say it was a joke, far from it, tongue in cheek, doesn't mean it's a laughing matter especially when it's my people someone is talking about wiping out. It's ironic in the sense of irony not sarcasm. I know Americans think irony and sarcasm are the same they aren't however, quite different things.



Oooh. _Irony_.

Would that be anything like the standard Israeli hello being _"shalom,"_ and the standard Palestinian one being _"salaam"_?

Or would it be that both of them mean "peace?" :barf:


----------



## granfire (Nov 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Oooh. _Irony_.
> 
> Would that be anything like the standard Israeli hello being _"shalom,"_ and the standard Palestinian one being _"salaam"_?
> 
> Or would it be that both of them mean "peace?" :barf:




NO, that is sarcasm - the way you write it, anyhow! :angel:


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## elder999 (Nov 18, 2012)

granfire said:


> NO, that is sarcasm - the way you write it, anyhow! :angel:



Nah, babe. That's disgust. Disgust that for every Palestinian who says that Israel should be wiped from  the face of the earth, there's an Israeli who says that _the Palestinians should go back to Syria and Jordan, with the rest of the Ah-rabbs._ Caught in between, of course, area majority who just want to get along. Israelis sickened by civilian deaths, and Palestinians,, trapped by Hamas. And, of course, all of us trapped in the boxes of our "informed opinions." Frankly, I'm just tired of it. Bring on the glass parking lot. It's what we all deserve. :barf:


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## Scott T (Nov 18, 2012)

Tried, writing a response but too tired at the moment. Later.


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## Tez3 (Nov 18, 2012)

You reap what you sow, as I said if America, France and the UK hadn't meddled to start with this wouldn't be happening now. History comes and bites you on the ****. If the reparations hadn't been so severe after the First World War the chances of there being the Second World War would have been almost none. If America, France and the UK hadn't meddled in the Middle East the chances there would have been all this war etc would have been almost none. It wasn't our generation of course but we are paying the price.


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## elder999 (Nov 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You reap what you sow, as I said if America, France and the UK hadn't meddled to start with this wouldn't be happening now. History comes and bites you on the ****. If the reparations hadn't been so severe after the First
> World War the chances of there being the Second World War would have been almost none. If America, France and the UK hadn't meddled in the Middle East the chances there would have been all this war etc would have been almost none. It wasn't our generation of course but we are paying the price.



If the US,France, and the UK hadn't meddled in the Middle East, the chances that there would be a state of Israel are almost none....


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## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2012)

elder999 said:


> If the US,France, and the UK hadn't meddled in the Middle East, the chances that there would be a state of Israel are almost none....




Perhaps, but it was always on the cards however without the Holocaust there wouldn't have been such a great need for Israel.


----------



## granfire (Nov 19, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Nah, babe. That's disgust. Disgust that for every Palestinian who says that Israel should be wiped from  the face of the earth, there's an Israeli who says that _the Palestinians should go back to Syria and Jordan, with the rest of the Ah-rabbs._ Caught in between, of course, area majority who just want to get along. Israelis sickened by civilian deaths, and Palestinians,, trapped by Hamas. And, of course, all of us trapped in the boxes of our "informed opinions." Frankly, I'm just tired of it. Bring on the glass parking lot. It's what we all deserve. :barf:



considering that we are moving into the Holiday Season with a steep increase in calls to 911 for domestic situation...does that at all surprise you?
We can't make it through Thanksgiving Dinner....much less a few millenia. 

But yeah, people who just want to be at peace, on both sides, being overshadowed by those with an agenda - who are usually far, FAR away from the battle front.....

However, I was just making a smartass remark regarding irony and sarcasm....


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2012)

elder999 said:


> If the US,France, and the UK hadn't meddled in the Middle East, the chances that there would be a state of Israel are almost none....



Yup.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Yup.




False argument, if America and the UK hadn't interfered there would have been no rise to power of Hitler and the Nazis, no Holocaust, no Nazi Mufti of Jeruslaem, well, you get the picture. The Arab countries would follow their natural borders with leaders that the locals wanted instead of having foisted on them. There may well have not been an Israel but the dire need for it wouldn't be there. The hatred of the Muslims for America is far greater than the hatred of Israel I'm afraid, memories are long in the Middle East, they go back a long way and to be honest I don't blame them in many respects.
I could live without Israel being real and being just an aspiration if it meant there had been no Holocaust and there was peace in the Middle East. 


Going back to something I posted earlier.








And this....


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> False argument, if America and the UK hadn't interfered there would have been no rise to power of Hitler and the Nazis, no Holocaust



Is the "interference" you're referring to WWI?


----------



## granfire (Nov 19, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Is the "interference" you're referring to WWI?



previous to that actually, when the countries were formed, without regard to the ethnic boundaries.


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2012)

Yeah, colonialism sucked. I'm not sure I follow the point. Will we trace blame back to Jehovah for promising them the land in the first place, 3000 years ago?


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## granfire (Nov 19, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Yeah, colonialism sucked. I'm not sure I follow the point. Will we trace blame back to Jehovah for promising them the land in the first place, 3000 years ago?



You missed the point Tez was repeating a few times: While the British kinda sorta promised the Jews a country, without the massive fluster cluck starting with the treaties of Versailles and finding their climax in Adolf the Unneccassary, there would have not been a need for a Jewish country: Ever since the exodus...no wait...that was the wrong one, anyhow ever since the Romans dismantled Palestine, Jewish people had been living in all countries of the middle east in pretty much peace. 

But then again, the British led the Arabs on, making them believe that if they beat the Turks they'd get their own country...


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## arnisador (Nov 19, 2012)

granfire said:


> the treaties of Versailles



Yup--really bad idea. Ensured WWII...



> and finding their climax in Adolf the Unneccassary



...but that specific form of WWII, including the Holocaust, was less clearly predictable. Still...



> there would have not been a need for a Jewish country



...plenty of Jews left Europe before WWI, even (including my wife's grandparents) because it was already problematic there. Anti-Semitism has long roots and the Jews would have wanted, and benefited from, their own country even without WWII.


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Yup--really bad idea. Ensured WWII...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Of course we would have wanted our own country, Zionism is an old movement,a pre World War one but the last war made it imperative rather than just hopeful. Even without Israel though the Middle East was messed up because of the boundaries and the imposition of rulers. Less colonialism though more to do with oil supplies even then. America supported Greece after the First World War and enabled them to invade Turkey which again caused problems when the Turkish Empire was broken up, Palestine had previously been held by the Turks along with other Middle Eastern lands. Britian, America and France didn't so much want the colonies but to ensure oil supplies and the wealth it brought. Even if Palestine had been controlled by Arabs and there was no Israel the chances of ther being war and the terrorism against America would still be high because of the past. The Iranians who incidentally support Hamas in Gaza with arms and money as well as military training hates the US for putting the Shah on the throne. he was a monster though.


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## granfire (Nov 20, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Yup--really bad idea. Ensured WWII...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was not really talking about Europe.
In pretty much all countries along the mediterranean coast and the middle east were enclaves of Jewish people. 

But a lot of people left for the new world before WWI...so that is neither here nor there either.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2012)

Good bye Ottoman Empire...hello unrest in the Middle East, it is an incredibly complicated area of the world what an incredibly complicated and convoluted history

   But bad feelings between the Middle East and the west go back further than WW I and promise made that were not kept. They still tell stories in the Middle East about the Crusades, and they are generally not painting a positive picture about any of those we call Crusaders


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## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Good bye Ottoman Empire...hello unrest in the Middle East, it is an incredibly complicated area of the world what an incredibly complicated and convoluted history
> 
> But bad feelings between the Middle East and the west go back further than WW I and promise made that were not kept. They still tell stories in the Middle East about the Crusades, and they are generally not painting a positive picture about any of those we call Crusaders




True. memories are long and mistreatment is never forgotten.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 20, 2012)

As if this man's pain isn't enough to bear he's being used as propaganda,  so very sad.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 21, 2012)

From ABC:
The Israel-Hamas cease-fire  brokered by the Obama administration, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin  Netanyahu and Egyptian president Mohammed Morsi, and announced today is  fragile, White House officials acknowledged.

 &#8220;The way we view this is that it&#8217;s an important step,&#8221; a senior White  House official said, &#8220;but our concerns are Egypt can&#8217;t control all of  Hamas,&#8221; the ruling party in Gaza designated a terrorist group by the  U.S. State Department, &#8220;and Hamas doesn&#8217;t control every extremist with a  rocket in Gaza. So there is a tenuous nature to this.&#8221;
___________________
What does this mean? It means nobody is shooting now, but, as soon as the nutjobs get some more rockets into Gaza, they'll start shooting at Israel again. Then, Israel will use targeted fire to take out the current terrorist leader, and the nutjobs will start screaming Israel is murdering children and otherwise oppressing them. You could argue that, but, you'd be arguing against decades of history.
From Politics and Finance blog:



​


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2012)

In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382

Hamas killed six of their own, shooting them then dragging them through the street tied to motorbikes. Killing their own is quite common, it keeps their people 'in line' I suppose.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/10538581


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## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.
> 
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382
> 
> ...


Had Israel RETURNED fire, you know, the way they do, they would have been pilloried as oppressors or some other ********


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2012)

It was ever thus since the bully David beat Goliath.


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## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?
The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed, i.e., "Miss, if you hadn't been wearing the short shorts and tube top, the rapist would have left you alone..."


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)




----------



## CanuckMA (Nov 22, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> In the first couple of hours of the ceasefire Hamas fired 20 rockets into Israel.
> 
> http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/162382



But they have the convenient excuse that it was other groups that did it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?
> The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed, i.e., "Miss, if you hadn't been wearing the short shorts and tube top, the rapist would have left you alone..."



To be honest I can't. My shift partner is a Gurkha and he says it always worries the Nepalese that the Chinese might decide to invade them, he says Israel is a hope and proof that the little countries can stand up for themselves against overwhelming odds. Much not be much but hope is always a good thing. 
I wish the people of Gaza well, most Israelis do actually, we think they are victims in this, they deserve so much more from their fellow Arabs. Iran doesn't care about them they are worth nothing to them which is awful. The Israelis and the Palestinians may be enemies for now ( Israel does hope for peace, always) but how much worse are the Palestinians 'friends' in dealing with them?


----------



## granfire (Nov 22, 2012)

the Palestinians are the useful idiots in this game.

Frankly, to their 'friends' they are worth much more dead as poster children for the oppression and to point fingers at evil Israel.
(and apparently it does not even matter whom they are using, all victims are fair game)

I have heard the families of suicide bombers are paid somewhere around 20.000 dollars....life is cheap.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

granfire said:


> I have heard the families of suicide bombers are paid somewhere around 20.000 dollars....life is cheap.


Saddam was one of those paying that fee, but, he was not a threat to anyone, remember...


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## Tez3 (Nov 22, 2012)

So very, very sad.


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## granfire (Nov 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Saddam was one of those paying that fee, but, he was not a threat to anyone, remember...



Never said different.
But there were a lot of people (are, actually) with much deeper pockets who continue to pay the blood money.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> Hey Tez, can you name any other instance where the nation (state/person/whatever) clearly acting in self defense is blamed?



I'm not sure it's so clear who is the unambiguous "good guy" and who is the unambiguous "bad guy" here. Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but it could've done more to try to address the problems earlier. On Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. I can see parallels to the American Revolution against the legitimate British govt. and parallels to the driving out of the Native Americans. (Please! I'm not saying it's exactly like either of those things.) A Palestinian with a bulldozed home might see more shades of grey than do you.



> The only thing that comes to my mind is blaming a rape victim for how she was dressed



When can we start leaving rape analogies out of these things? Do people have no other rhetorical skills? That's the _only _thing that comes to your mind?


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

granfire said:


> Never said different.
> But there were a lot of people (are, actually) with much deeper pockets who continue to pay the blood money.


Ideally, those people would be hunted down and killed.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> I'm not sure it's so clear who is the unambiguous "good guy" and who is the unambiguous "bad guy" here. Yes, Israel has the right to defend itself, but it could've done more to try to address the problems earlier. On Thanksgiving Day here in the U.S. I can see parallels to the American Revolution against the legitimate British govt. and parallels to the driving out of the Native Americans. (Please! I'm not saying it's exactly like either of those things.) A Palestinian with a bulldozed home might see more shades of grey than do you.
> 
> 
> 
> When can we start leaving rape analogies out of these things? Do people have no other rhetorical skills? That's the _only _thing that comes to your mind?


The unambiguous Bad guys fire unguided rockets into Israel causing numerous civilian casualties and then whine they are oppressed when the Israeli military uses surgical strikes to take out their terrorist leadership. The unambiguous good guys are the Israelis who, as a government do NOT discriminate based on religion, and don't indiscriminately fire rockets into their neighbor's land... The unambiguous bad guys were elected, and yet, failed to hold an election when the stated term of office was complete... If you can't figure that out, maybe you should see a proctologist about your rectal cranial inversion.
The Rape of Nanking is now a verbotten topic as well?


----------



## arnisador (Nov 22, 2012)

Big Don said:


> If you can't figure that out, maybe you should see a proctologist about your rectal cranial inversion.



There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?



> The Rape of Nanking is now a verbotten topic as well?



I don't follow you. What's the connection?


----------



## CanuckMA (Nov 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?



Actually, no.

The Palestinians have had too many opportunities to have a state, starting with the original partition plan. When you indoctrinate kids to kill the other person, when you set your rocket launchers in the middle of civilian population to maximize your own civilian casualties if there is retaliation, when you deliberately target civilians, you are the bad guy.

At some point, the world has to truly admit to itself that Israel is the humane, restrained nation here. Let's face it, the IDF could get up and flatten Gaza and still be home for bagels and lox.

You realize that even at the financial and human cost, Israel was about to start a ground war. The only reason for that is because only boots on the ground can be very selective of targets.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> There can't possibly be two valid points of view on this?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't follow you. What's the connection?


Firing rockets with no guidance into areas with children and families is a valid point of view how?


----------



## arnisador (Nov 22, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> The Palestinians have had too many opportunities to have a state



But everyone wants their state in the same place.



> At some point, the world has to truly admit to itself that Israel is the humane, restrained nation here.



There's a long history. Has Israel's treatment of the Palestinians given them no legitimate grievances at all? Their complaints are entirely fabricated?

I'm for Israel's right to defend itself in the current situation, but to claim purity on their part and simple malfeasance on the part of the Palestinians is not going to wash.


----------



## CanuckMA (Nov 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> But everyone wants their state in the same place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Israel's 'treatment' of the Palestinians is overwhelmingly the fault of the Palestinians. They need to do 3 things.

1) Stop firing rockets and blowing **** up
2) recognize israel as a nation
3) Sit down with Israel and figure out borders that make sense.

As much as the Pals ***** about Israel's refusal to comply to UN resolutions, they started it by not complying to 181.


BTW, this is the state they could have had in 1948




They could have had one after the 48 war instead of being occupied by Egypt and Jordan.
They could have had one after the '67 or '73 war. They could have had one after Oslo I, Olso II, Camp David, or at any time they met those 3 conditions.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 22, 2012)




----------



## WC_lun (Nov 22, 2012)

As long as the Palestinians refuse to recognize that Israel is a country and exsist, as long as Palestians are willing to perform actions that are a detrimate to thier own people, and as long as Iran keeps stirring the pot, there will be no long lasting peace.  Yes, there are things that the Israelies have done to keep the simmer going as well, such as bull dozing houses and supporting settlers on agreed upon Palestinian land.  First and foremost, the Palestinian people must show they want peace.  That means no more missiles into Israel and if someone does launch a missle into Israel, they must not be treated as heroes.  Palestinians live by the grace of the Israelis right now.  Humas should be smart enough to realize this, but they are told often that Arabs and Iran will support them if it comes to war, which they will not.  None of those countries will risk thier fragile economies and the devestation of war with Israel or America.


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## arnisador (Nov 22, 2012)

All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.


----------



## granfire (Nov 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.



It's like the race relations in the US (well, sort of, but more so):
As long as people profit from the status quo it will continue.


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## Big Don (Nov 23, 2012)

*Hamas cries victory; truce with Israel holds, Yahoo News/AP*

Muslim Brotherhood leader blasts peace efforts with Israel after Morsi helps broker cease-fire Fox News/AP

Negotiating with these animals is perceived by them as weakness.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 23, 2012)

arnisador said:


> All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.


Then you MUST blame the TERRORISTS and NOT the Israelis. Because, were there no terrorist attacks, there would be no need for Israel to shoot back.


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## Big Don (Nov 23, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> As long as the Palestinians refuse to recognize that Israel is a country and exsist, as long as Palestians are willing to perform actions that are a detrimate to thier own people, and as long as Iran keeps stirring the pot, there will be no long lasting peace.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Nope, sorry, housing people is not the same as firing rockets and suicide bombers.





> First and foremost, the Palestinian people must show they want peace.  That means no more missiles into Israel and if someone does launch a missle into Israel, they must not be treated as heroes.  Palestinians live by the grace of the Israelis right now.  Humas should be smart enough to realize this, but they are told often that Arabs and Iran will support them if it comes to war, which they will not.  None of those countries will risk thier fragile economies and the devestation of war with Israel or America.


Sometime, in the next days or weeks, rockets will fly from Gaza, or Syria, or Lebanon, into Israel, are the Israelis supposed to just fort up and take it?


----------



## WC_lun (Nov 23, 2012)

Don, really?  If someone bull dozes your house down would you tell me you hate them any less because at least they didn't shoot a missile at you?  The situation between the Palastinians and Israel is far more complicated than those mean ole Palastinians are shooting rockets.  Peace is going to require a more nuanced aproach than kill the Palastinians because they launch rockets.  That means understanding both side's beef with the other.

Israel will take rocket launches into thier territory for a bit.  Not because they are passive, but because it strengthens thier case against Humas when Egypt fails to control them.  It will quell some of the negative reactions from Isreal's nieghbors. Again, it isn't as simple as you make it seem.


----------



## CanuckMA (Nov 23, 2012)

arnisador said:


> All this sounds great if there is someone bringing them both to the negotiating table. Otherwise, it's just an endorsement of the sad status quo. The current bombing and counterbombing needs to be stopped; but the whole situation has to be addressed to stop the problems permanently.



They both were at the negotiating table.

Remember Olso I, Olso II?

Remember Camp David where Israel agreed to 97% of what the PA wanted, should have been down to negotiating the final details. Barak was willing to sell a solution that could potentially kill his political future. Arafat went back home and started the Second Intifada.

It's not sitting them down at the table. It's having the Palestinians willing to actually negotiate a peace accord. That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.


Not just in words, in deeds.


----------



## seasoned (Nov 23, 2012)

CanuckMA said:


> That starts by recognizing Israel's right to exist and renouncing terrorism.


Yes.



Big Don said:


> Not just in words, in deeds.


And yes again.

Peace comes with compromise, compromise comes with a willingness for peace. 
No one wants to appear weak, and there, is part of a bigger picture.


----------



## Big Don (Nov 24, 2012)

Remember and recognize that Israel pulled out of Gaza several years ago? 
That was supposed to bring peace...


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel's_unilateral_disengagement_plan

On the subject of razed homes, the Israelis razed more Jewish homes than Palestininas. It was the ideal way to go about it but it showed the willingness of Israel to make the peace plans work, note what the Palestinians did when they took over the remaining Jewish homes.

_"The evacuated settlements were razed by demolition crews, with 2,530 homes being destroyed. All but two of the synagogues of the settlements were left intact. The remaining two synagogues, whose construction allowed for them to be taken apart and reassembled, were dismantled and rebuilt in Israel. The demolition of the homes was completed on September 1, while the Shirat HaYam hotel was demolished later.[SUP][30][/SUP]_
_On August 28, the IDF began dismantling Gush Katif's 48-grave cemetery. All of the bodies were removed by special teams of soldiers supervised by the Military Rabbinate and reburied in locations of their families' choosing. In accordance with Jewish law, all soil touching the remains was also transferred, and the dead were given second funerals, with the families observing a one-day mourning period. All coffins were draped in the Israeli flag on the way to reburial. The transfer was completed on September 1.[SUP][31][/SUP][SUP][32][/SUP]_
_The IDF also began withdrawing its forces in the Gaza Strip, and had withdrawn 95% of its military equipment by September 1. On September 7, the IDF announced that it planned to advance its full withdrawal from the Gaza Strip to September 12, pending cabinet approval.[SUP][33][/SUP] It was also announced that in the area evacuated in the West Bank the IDF planned to transfer all control (excluding building permits and anti-terrorism) to the PNA - the area will remain "Area C" (full Israeli control) de jure, but "Area A" (full PNA control) de facto._
_On September 11, the Israeli cabinet revised an earlier decision to destroy the synagogues of the settlements. The Palestinian Authority protested Israel's decision, arguing that it would rather Israel dismantle the synagogues.[SUP][34][/SUP] On September 11, a ceremony was held when the last Israeli flag was lowered in the IDF's Gaza Strip divisional headquarters.[SUP][35][/SUP] All remaining IDF forces left the Gaza Strip in the following hours. The last soldier left the strip, and the Kissufim gate was closed in the early morning of September 12.[SUP][36][/SUP] This completed the Israeli pullout from the Gaza Strip. However, an official handover ceremony was cancelled after the Palestinian Authority boycotted it in response to Israel's decision not to demolish the synagogues._
_In addition to the synagogues, all of the greenhouses in the settlements were left intact after the Economic Cooperation Foundation raised $14 million to buy the greenhouses for the Palestinian Authority.[SUP][37][/SUP]_
_On September 20, the IDF temporarily entered the northern Gaza Strip, constructing a buffer zone parallel to the border near Beit Hanoun before pulling out.[SUP][38][/SUP]_
_

 __

_
_Residents of Elei Sinai camping in Yad Mordechai, just over the border from their former homes._


_

 __

_
_A protest camp in Tel Aviv from members of Netzer Hazani left without homes._


_Bedouin citizens of Israel from the village of Dahaniya in the Gaza Strip were evacuated and resettled in Arad. The village had had a long history of cooperation with Israel, and the residents themselves had asked to be evacuated due to security concerns.[SUP][39][/SUP][SUP][40][/SUP][SUP][41][/SUP]_
_On September 22, the IDF finished evacuating the four settlements in the northern West Bank. While the residents of Ganim and Kadim, mostly middle-class seculars, had long since left their homes, several families and about 2,000 outsiders tried to prevent the evacuation of Sa-Nur and Homesh, which had a larger percent of observant population. Following negotiations, the evacuation was completed relatively peacefully. The settlements were subsequently razed, with 270 homes being bulldozed. In Sa-Nur, the synagogue was left intact, but was buried under mounds of sand by bulldozers to prevent its destruction by the Palestinians.[SUP][42][/SUP]_
_*Following Israel's withdrawal, Palestinian mobs entered the settlements waving PLO and Hamas flags, firing gunshots into the air and setting off firecrackers, and chanting slogans. Four synagogues were vandalized, looted, and torched. Palestinians also looted objects from destroyed homes.[SUP][43][/SUP] Hamas leaders held celebratory prayers in Kfar Darom synagogue as mobs continued to ransack and loot synagogues.[SUP][44][/SUP] Palestinian Authority security forces did not intervene, and announced that the synagogues would be destroyed. Less than 24 hours after the withdrawal, Palestinian Authority bulldozers began to demolish the remaining synagogues.[SUP][45][/SUP][SUP][46][/SUP][SUP][47][/SUP] The settlements' greenhouses, which were left intact by Israel, were also looted by Palestinian mobs. Palestinian Authority security forces attempted to stop them, but did not have enough manpower to be effective. In some places, there was no security, while some police officers joined the looters.[SUP][48][/SUP]
*_


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## Sukerkin (Nov 24, 2012)

Amongst the many reports and images I have seen over the decades about the war that has flared with varying degrees of heat in that region of the world, there is one that has stuck in my mind from the very first time I saw it.  It's in a book called "The Israeli War Machine" by Ian V. Hogg.  On page 164 of that book (I just went to check and, after about thirty years it took me all of a minute to find the picture I recalled) there is a fairly poor quality photo of a young Israeli woman.  

What caught me so strongly about the shot?

Well, for a start she is nine months pregnant.  She is standing outside a West Bank kindergarten in the bright sun.  She has shades, a headscarf, flowery print dress and, shoulder-slung but in hand, an uzi.

It's not a particularly well taken photo but that shocking juxtaposition of a woman so close to giving birth having the necessity to stand armed guard on a school for the very young really brought home to me just how much of a fortress mentality the Israeli's have had to have.  After all, it's not paranoia if they really are out to get you.


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## Tez3 (Nov 24, 2012)

If you think the Israelis are hard on the Palestinians think on the fact that the commercial greenhouses were bought for the Palestinians at a cost of $14m and they smashed them all up. They could have instead run a very successful market garden business bringing jobs and a measure of prosperity to the area. They smashed up and razed the synagogues which apart could have been used as schools, communitry centres, clinics etc and they smashed up and destroyed houses that Palestinians could have lived in. Does this sound like the Israelis are the ones making the Palestininans suffer unduly?

Israeli help for Palestinians in a quake.   http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/05/15/us-palestinians-israel-relief-idUSBRE84E0YW20120515

http://www.politico.com/blogs/ben-s...acks-aid-to-palestinian-authority-108380.html

Israeli humanitarian aid to Gaza.


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