# NOOB in TKD with questions



## HM2PAC (Sep 17, 2008)

Hello everyone, this is my 1st post here. I live in Maine with my wife and 2 children. This summer we started ATA TKD as a family and we all enjoy it very much. I would have preferred Kung Fu, as that is what I have trained in in the past, but up here the options are somewhat limited.

Soon we are to be ready for "Leadership" which requires sparring, finally. However, our training center requires that we buy their package of gear for $350/ea. Head gear, gloves, kick boots, chest protector and foam rubber weapons. I can get similar gear commercially for about $100/ea.

The wife and I are really torn. We all love the TKD, the kids look forward to each practice and even practice at home. My 6 y/o son has taken to using soccer practice as a good time to practice kicks. The problem is that $1500 is a bit too much for us to layout for TKD gear when we could pay less than $400 over the internet.

I do not want to offend our instructors, but I am starting to feel as though we are about to be fleeced. 

Does anyone have any suggestions?


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 17, 2008)

What you are saying is typical ATA crud.
The national average for martial arts lessons is $70 per month.
ATA schools are known for this.  Google ATA Taekwondo and see what you are getting into.

AoG


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## jarrod (Sep 17, 2008)

AoG is correct.  ATA is about making money.  check your local recreation centers or the YMCA.  most of them offer at least tae kwon do if not other martial arts at a much more competitive rate.

jf


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 17, 2008)

I appreciate Jarrod's comment about YMCA's.  There are 52 schools in my area and the best of them are hidden in ymca's and community centers.  
We have an ATA school here and they charge $99 per month.  Meanwhile, the best guy I know of charges $30 and meets in one of the rec centers.  He has been there for a long time, so there are lots of stable schools hidden in these centers.
Sidenote: I have not visited my local ATA, so I don't know about their quality.  Our biggest Mcdojo is actually another school that charges $115 per month and pumps out 4 year old black belts.  I have gotten several of their students after their free promotional month runs out.

AoG


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## HM2PAC (Sep 17, 2008)

AoG wrote:


> The national average for martial arts lessons is $70 per month.



Our family rate is affordable. I have no problems with that. My problem lies in the seemingly inflated prices for common gear.


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## Kacey (Sep 17, 2008)

I agree with those who point out that the ATA is known for fleecing their  students - not all ATA classes, certainly, but neither is the price differential you mention uncommon in ATA classes.

It's okay for them to make _some _money from selling equipment; that's often a reliable source of income for schools (I charge $5 over my cost for equipment - which goes to the class fund - and that includes the cost of shipping) - but it's not okay to charge so much your students cannot buy required equipment.

I would suggest talking to the instructors.  Point out that there are 4 of your and ask for consideration on that basis.  If they say yes, and the consideration (in terms of reduction in cost) is fair it's all good.  If they won't consider a volume reduction, you and your wife will have to decide if you can afford to continue at this school, or if you will have to investigate other options - but if, aside from the equipment cost, you like it there, I would really suggest talking to them first, before you make any decisions.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 17, 2008)

Kacey,

Thanx.

We do have to speak with our instructors. Hopefully they will make some sort of exception, however, I'm not optimistic. The literature they gave to us last night stated that their insurance company expressly prohibits the use of protective gear other than ATA approved.

I'm new to TKD, however I do have experience with other martial arts. I have never seen anything like this. My previous instructors had gear that we used, rather than us buying our own. Granted, that was a few years ago, and things in the industry may well have changed.

There are a couple of other schools in the area, but they are few and far btwn. I really wish we had a Kung Fu or HapKido school out this way, but alas, those are not available.


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## Kacey (Sep 17, 2008)

Well... I'll just say that I'm an instructor, and my insurance requires head gear, foot pads, hand pads, mouth guards, and (for male students) cups - but it says nothing about who makes them, or even what type, just that my students must wear them.  The key words here seem to be "ATA approved", which seems to be translating as "ATA sold them to you".  I'm sorry that this is a problem generated by a class you're otherwise happy with, and I wish you a successful resolution to your problem.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 17, 2008)

I hope that this can be ameliorated with minimal conflict, but as I said before, I'm not optimistic. Tomorrow night we'll speak with our instructors. Hopefully they can come to some sort of rational agreement with us.

The kids are really enjoying the class. If it was just them it would not be such a big deal. The problem is I want to continue and now my wife is into it and wants to continue.


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## arnisador (Sep 17, 2008)

If they really have a concern about safety equipment meeting certain safety standards that's one thing--but then they should be able to work with you. I don't think you'll be happy if you lay out $1500 for equipment.


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## jarrod (Sep 17, 2008)

ArmorOfGod said:


> I appreciate Jarrod's comment about YMCA's. There are 52 schools in my area and the best of them are hidden in ymca's and community centers.
> We have an ATA school here and they charge $99 per month. Meanwhile, the best guy I know of charges $30 and meets in one of the rec centers. He has been there for a long time, so there are lots of stable schools hidden in these centers.
> AoG


 
i know what you mean.  my judo/sambo coach is a 2x national sambo champion who has churned out literally hundreds of national champs & international players in judo as well as an olympian, plus national & world champs in sambo.  he's out of a rec & charges $60 per 8 week session.

jf


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## Cirdan (Sep 18, 2008)

What other schools are available? I would never recomend staying with an organization of money grabbers like that.


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## Brian S (Sep 18, 2008)

In my opinion, you are better off buying blackbelts on ebay and wearing them to the park to play than staying with ATA.

 :angel:


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## HM2PAC (Sep 18, 2008)

cirdan asked:


> What other schools are available?



Close to us is a Kenpo Karate school. Other than that we may have to travel about 30-45 minutes to get to a larger city. This is being done on school-nights, which is somewhat limiting.

Our YMCA is starting a Karate class, I'll look into that as well.


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## tshadowchaser (Sep 18, 2008)

Personally if I laid out 1500 for equipment it had better last me and my family a life time.  If the instructor insists you pay such an exorbitant price I think you might be better off looking at other schools in your area.  I know you probably like where you are and what is being taught but do you want to be robbed at the same time your studying?  Those prices are completely over inflated and a rip off.

Just my 2 cents worth


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## savagek (Sep 18, 2008)

Hello, 

Tshadowchaser is correct, I outfit my students for around $75.00 (quality gear)... Maybe you should look for other training options. 

Best of luck. 

Be well and Gassho, 

Ken Savage 
www.winmartialarts.com


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## BrandonLucas (Sep 18, 2008)

I'm not sure how ATA normally runs things, since I'm affiliated with ITF, but at our dojang, our instructor only requires us to buy shin/instep pads and forearm pads.  He supplies the other padding, and uses a strong antibacterial spray to clean them with after use.  Everything is made from vinyl that he supplies, so cleanup is easy.

It seems to me that even if you were required to pay for equipment, you shouldn't be charged that much over the cost of purchasing the equipment elsewhere.  It's just like buying anything else:  if something's overpriced at one store, shop around until you find the best price.

If they tell you that you have to buy their equipment only, and that they won't accept equipment that you can afford to buy, (assuming, of course, that the equipment is up to standards), then this would be typical McDojo/McDojang practice.  

If this is the case, speaking with your instructors about the cost of the equipment isn't going to do much good, although they may agree to come off the price "this one time".  McDojo's are all about making money, and while they may let you slide on this one thing, there will be something else that you "must" purchase that will be equally as overpriced.

Of course, this may not be the case, and they may have the wrong prices marked or something of that nature.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 18, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> Kacey,
> 
> Thanx.
> 
> ...


The reason for the ATA gear required by the insurrance is due to the fact that ATA schools get their insurance from the ATA.  WTF offers insurance to schools, but aren't as tied into the individual dojangs to the same level.  

Alot of schools require that you buy gear from them, and most (mine) strongly encourage it.  The price differential was not too bad, and the only material difference was the school logo on the gear and the uniformity of the gear.  For the record, I bought mine elsewhere; I'm a custodial single parent of two teens and I cannot afford to pay more into martial arts than I presently do.  

Normally I recommend buying from your school, but the cost differential that you mention is, quite honestly, criminal.  I will refrain from any comment about the ATA directly; I've never been in it and all knowledge that I do have is second hand.  

Daniel


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## bowser666 (Sep 18, 2008)

Personally it sounds liek the 1000% markup. They probably buy it from the site that you foudn and then gouge the students on pricing. Very sad, its schools that pull this that give good ones a bad rap.


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## Brad Dunne (Sep 18, 2008)

A suggestion, since you seem to be kind of stuck with this ATA school. Ask some of the other students if anyone has any ATA gear they wish to sell. There should be somebody that is not going with the ATA any longer and would like to unload the equipment they purchased. Aside from that, you either pay what they ask or go on down the road. I suggest, go on down the road.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 18, 2008)

We couldn't make it to practice tonight, a crash tied up the highway and there is no way around. (Did I mention that we live in a rather rural area?)

I looked over the literature further, it seems that only ATA equipment can be used at the facility and at ATA tournaments. So while we may be able to outfit the entire family of four for $400, it would not meet ATA specs.

We are presently looking for used gear.


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## terryl965 (Sep 18, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> We couldn't make it to practice tonight, a crash tied up the highway and there is no way around. (Did I mention that we live in a rather rural area?)
> 
> I looked over the literature further, it seems that only ATA equipment can be used at the facility and at ATA tournaments. So while we may be able to outfit the entire family of four for $400, it would not meet ATA specs.
> 
> We are presently looking for used gear.


 
If you go to Craig List and doa search for ATA gear you can alway find it especially here in the metroplex of Dallas, even if they ship it to you at 10% of the original cost it is worth it.
Try that and I am sure you will have great luck.


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## ArmorOfGod (Sep 18, 2008)

Also, you can go to eBay and type in "ATA" and see lots of gear for cheap with the ATA logo stamped on it.

AoG


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## Laurentkd (Sep 18, 2008)

Another thing to think about is, what is the NEXT cost going to be? When it is time to go in the next level of programs (Black Belt Club, or Leadership Team or whatever) what other gear will you have to pay for that you feel you can't afford? 
If you feel this school is worth what you are paying for adjust your budget accordingly and then go for it!!
But, if you think there is going to be a constant burden to pay for equipment, it might be worthwhile to check out some other schools before getting more attached to this one.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 19, 2008)

Laurentkd wrote:


> Another thing to think about is, what is the NEXT cost going to be? When it is time to go in the next level of programs (Black Belt Club, or Leadership Team or whatever) what other gear will you have to pay for that you feel you can't afford?
> If you feel this school is worth what you are paying for adjust your budget accordingly and then go for it!!
> But, if you think there is going to be a constant burden to pay for equipment, it might be worthwhile to check out some other schools before getting more attached to this one.



There are a number of things I'm looking down the road at having to pay for that are beginning to not make sense to me.

Foam rubber weapons
Blackbelt Academy
Leadership Training

There are a couple of things like "Delta" and "SWAT". They have tacticool names that make them sound neat.

Today I intend to go checkout the Karate place a little down the road from where we train.

I've made myself a heavy bag in my basement out of an old seabag and towels. I hit the thing more than I hit pads in class. No real sparring in TKD until we reach "camo" belt.

I did Kung Fu when I lived in Hawaii years ago. Very little sparring gear, and a whole lot of physical contact from the get-go.


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## jarrod (Sep 19, 2008)

camo belt?  are there degrees of camo belt?  if so, can you see the stripes on it?

more importantly, is the school keeping up to date by using desert camo, or better yet digi-cams?  if they are still using woodland camo, RUN.  they are obviously out of touch with the realities of modern martial arts.

jf


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

Camo belts.  Ugh.  

As I said, I'll make no derogatory comments about the ATA, but the camo belt is just plain stupid in my opinion.  Probably okay for tiny tigers, little ninjas or mini dragon programs, where the kids are under eight, but for a regular program?  Come on!

In the ATA, there are at least two levels of each belt: recomended and decided.  Assuming that you must pay to test for each one, that makes about twenty belt testings including two black.  They may not require a testing or have a testing fee for each level, but if they do, that is a LOT of dough, and very unnecessary in my opinion.  Once again, I do not know if each level requires a test fee.

As Lauren said, if you feel that the school is a good school and worth the money, then adjust accordingly.  You have a martial arts background yourself, and while it may not be taekwondo, I'd venture that you can determine if the training is of a quality commensurate with the pricing.

HM2PAC, what is Delta??  I've seen Swat patches (Special Winning Attitude Team) and STORM (Special Team Of Role Models) but Delta??  Sounds like someone's been watching too much Chuck Norris!

Daniel


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## HM2PAC (Sep 19, 2008)

It's woodland camo. They could learn a thing or three from Bill Jordan.

Yes, you have to pay each time you test. If you are recommended, then you have to pay again and test again for a decided belt in a couple of months.
so yes, there are about 10 or 11 belts depending on how you count them.

The wife and I had a big discussion last night, she is starting to have the same concerns I am. We can find all of the gear on Ebay new or used fora fraction of the price that we are looking at at our training facility. Of interest is that at the ATA website, prices for gear are not given, only "contact you instructor".

I don't know what Delta is. I'm pretty sure it will involve opening a wallet though.



I


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

Ten or twelve belts, each with recommended and decided levels means twenty to twenty two testing fees.  Unless the fees are chump change, then I'd consider that to be waaaayyy over the top.  

How do you feel about the instruction you and your family receive?

Daniel


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## HM2PAC (Sep 19, 2008)

Celtic Tiger asked:


> How do you feel about the instruction you and your family receive?



Mixed bag really. Our kids are young. My son is 6 and my daughter is 8. They have a number of friends that attend and really enjoy it all. 6 and 8 year-olds are not going to have the motor skills to do everything perfect, but they do well with what they are capable of.

In the classes I see things that make me shake my head. Most of the students, be they new or seasoned, young or old, can't simply tie their belt in a simple square knot. Including the BlackBelts. Uniforms are dirty/wrinkled. Senior students/Blackbelts are physically out of shape and quite literally obese. Discipline is on the edge at best. (I could go on, but I need to go run the chainsaw this AM.)

I make sure our uniforms are WHITE and pressed. It takes the wife and I about 15 minutes to iron uniforms for 4 people. It's not a huge expenditure of time.

In a word, I'm not pleased.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

I've seen schools like that.  One place I looked at a while back had lots of wording in their literature regarding the fitness benefits of the martial arts, but a lot of the senior students and at least two of the staff were obese and the discipline thoughout seemed, 'on the edge' as you put it.

When I look at a school, I don't pay much attention to the low belts.  I look at the blackbelts.  Blackbelts that look like they have the technique of a green belt is generally a huge red flag, kiddie blackbelts not withstanding (I could rant on that subject for pages).

Daniel


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## HM2PAC (Sep 19, 2008)

The "leadership" program is $89/mo through something called Automatic Funds Transfer (AFT).

We can pay monthly with cash, but it is an extra $5.

A penalty for paying cash? Since when did credit become better than cash? 

I just spoke on the phone with another school. They have better rates, no contracts, and have all the sparring gear at the school. We meet with them   this upcoming week, possibly Tuesday.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

The discount is not because it is credit but because it is automatic and tied into a contract.  The idea is to get a customer to go with the contract.  It benefits the school by keeping people around longer and benefits the student with a lower rate.

I have mixed feelings regarding contracts.  Our school has them and I signed on for a lengthy one (my choice), but I am also supremely happy with my dojang and the instruction that my sons and I receive.

Best wishes with the new place. What type of school is it; Taekwondo, Shotokan, Kenpo?

Daniel


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## gblnking (Sep 19, 2008)

In the many differant schools I've tried, visited, or interacted with in some fashion I've always found the best overall quality goes hands down to the schools that have no contracts. I have been a member (sucker) in several "McDojo's" at one the regional head instructor even went as far as to say that he wanted that particular style to be the "McDonalds of martial arts" and that's a direct quote. Ounce a school started hefting outrageous fee's on my family for gear and 2 ? tests per belt, I'd know it's time to leave. Don't give them any more of your money. And tell them that too. Let the instructors know how disappointed you for being ripped off.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 19, 2008)

The new place to check out next week is:http://www.hameldojo.com/index.htm

They teach Shorinryu Matsumura Seito, a form of Okinawan Karate.

No contracts
Slow progression
Emphasis on self-defense
School supplies the gear at no charge
School supplies the weapons at no charge

I spoke with Mr. Hamel today, he said they emphasize a form of karate that is similar to what I had learned in KungFu. Not many high kicks and utilizing the opponents own force to direct them to the side then to strike.

This appeals to me.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 19, 2008)

Looks like the school I trained in in the early eighties.  They disappeared, sadly; went out of business and recommended another school, not disappeared with people's money.  Loved that place.  It's what I'd like to do when I open my own school.

Daniel


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## Mimir (Sep 20, 2008)

Celtic Tiger said:


> but Delta?? Sounds like someone's been watching too much Chuck Norris!
> 
> Daniel


 
Daniel, there is no such thing as too much Chuck Norris


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## HM2PAC (Sep 21, 2008)

My wife and I were able to speak to our instructors at length about the gear, and the AFT.

As it turns out they don't care how we get our gear, or where it comes from. They are also amenable to monthly cash payments.

This is good, as we are striking out on schools in our area. The closest schools with good reputations are about 30+ minutes from our house.

I'm not big on the TKD, and I will have to wear a camo belt at some point. However, it beats not doing anything. I am continuing to train with my Hung Gar books and my heavy bag in the basement. It's not the same as having a real Sifu around, but the style suits me.


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## Brian S (Sep 21, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> The new place to check out next week is:http://www.hameldojo.com/index.htm
> 
> They teach Shorinryu Matsumura Seito, a form of Okinawan Karate.
> 
> ...


 
 This would sound very appealing to me as well! I say go for it!!

 p.s. I would drive much further for a better school


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## terryl965 (Sep 21, 2008)

We all must do what feels right nomatter what, follow your first instinct.


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## HM2PAC (Sep 22, 2008)

> p.s. I would drive much further for a better school



My first reaction was to say yes to driving further. We are no longer looking at the link that I posted previously, for reasons I can't go into.

There are 2 other schools in adjacent towns. The problem is that the classes are later in the evening on school nights.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Sep 22, 2008)

HM2PAC said:


> My wife and I were able to speak to our instructors at length about the gear, and the AFT.
> 
> As it turns out they don't care how we get our gear, or where it comes from. They are also amenable to monthly cash payments.
> 
> ...


Glad to hear that you were able to work things out monetarilly with them.  The gear situation in particular!  

If you stay with that school, my advice is for you and your family to get all that you can from the training that they provide, treating each test as if you will fail if you don't put out the highest effort.  In that way, you'll benefit from class and the rest of the class will take notice, and perhaps try to step up to level of the new students.

Unfortunately, students tend to fall to the lowest common denominator, but happily, new students with high standards will often spark the competative drive and bring out the best in those around them.

Best wishes to you!  Keep us posted!

Daniel


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## HM2PAC (Sep 23, 2008)

Well, we've decided to get our gear. The foam rubber weapons, I think those will be OK for the kids, but I can't bring myself to join in. I don't think they create realistic attitudes toward weaponry. Wood and steel I'm OK with.

I am pretty stoked about sparring again, it's been a few years. I keep myself in pretty good shape with weights and swimming/bicycling. In the evenings we as a family practice our forms and "one-steps". I also have the kids doing a few basic Hung Gar exercises such as siting in horse position (knees at 90 and hips at 90) while they do blocks. The little critters have amazing strength and endurance compared to adults. They can sit there for seemingly ever.


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