# Most important Kata



## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

Style you do and what YOU consider the most important kata, If there is one that seems to generally be considered the most important give that too 

Seisan? Sanchin? Naihanchi? Pinan Series?  What's the one you'd keep if you could only keep one?


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## Grenadier (May 25, 2006)

I really couldn't put a "most important kata" classification on any of them, since each one has something to offer.  

Just as a few examples (can't list every lesson, else I'd probably violate a max charater limit), I'd use these points when teaching Shotokan Karate:

At the beginner level, there's the Taikyoku series: Have to start somewhere, and to get good stances, fundamentals, and timings, is critical to someone's development.  Since all the stances are zen kutsu dachi, and the same hand / same foot rule applies, it's easy to learn, and that students can soon learn how to refine their performance, once the sequences become second nature.  This is where they first "get it," for the lack of a better term.  


At the intermediate level, there's Heian Shodan (sometimes swapped with Heian / Pinan Nidan in other systems, since it is a bit more difficult to learn): Their first complex kata.  This kata makes them aware that they are going to showing a lot of aspects, such as blocking, punching, open hand techniques, kicking, koshino-kaiten, and also because they are no longer strictly adhering to the classical "H" of the Taikyoku series.  Also, one's stances are really highlighted by this form, since they are going to have to make sure that their zen kutsu dachi, kiba dachi, and ko-neko dachi are all in order.  

It's really a lot for a newly minted intermediate student to digest, and although the other Heian kata teach equally important techniques and lessons, their first Pinan is going to be a good sized leap, but invariably, they're going do do just fine.  


At the advanced level, there's Kanku Dai: A culmination of everything they've learned, plus a bit more.  This is where they learn whether or not their endurance is sufficient to go through the whole kata with full intensity, while not fading away.  It is, after all, a rather long form.  At the same time, though, learning it really isn't that difficult at this stage, since the students can now see (or had better be able to see) that the first half is almost like piecing parts of Heian Shodan and Heian Yondan together, so the familiarity of the techniques is already present.  

As a result, they'd better darn well see that the more basic items they learned are going to be with them for the rest of their times as martial artists!


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## Explorer (May 25, 2006)

Tough question ... I currently practice about 13 open hand and 6 weapons kata ... they're all interesting, fun and instructive.

IF I had to choose .... naihanchi 1 or 2 ... maybe pinan 1

If I practice all my kata as one long kata ... can I count that as one?

It might be easier to list the kata I would leave behind .... hmmm ... nope, that's not so easy either.


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## Explorer (May 25, 2006)

Since Naihanchi Shodan is so often the first kata a student learns it would be natural to consider it the most necessary ...


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## Grenadier (May 25, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> Since Naihanchi Shodan is so often the first kata a student learns it would be natural to consider it the most necessary ...


 
Just out of curiousity, which system teaches the Naihanchi / Tekki series as the first one?  It's a bit more of a complex kata than the others, and I wonder how they manage to get people started with it?  

Every Karate system I've seen generally doesn't teach it until after the student has several other kata under the belt (no pun intended).


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## Andrew Green (May 25, 2006)

Prior to Ituso creating the Pinan series for teaching in schools, and prior to the Fukyugata being created most Shuri based styles used Naihanchi as the first kata.  Choki Motobu was said to keep his students on it for years, so much so that some questioned if he knew any others.


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## Grenadier (May 25, 2006)

Thanks, Andrew.

Shame on me for not knowing this, especially since I did spend a good number of years with a Shuri system!


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## ppko (May 25, 2006)

I will have to agree with explorer on this Nai Hanchi Shodan has so many levels of breakdowns that it is deffinately my most important kata


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## Henderson (May 25, 2006)

From a Goju Ryu standpoint I would have to say Geki Sai Ich because it encompasses so many of the aspects of Goju as a whole, and presents a new student with many glimpes of what is in store further into the training.


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## Nomad (May 25, 2006)

Washin Ryu karate... probably Ten No Kata since so few schools have kept this terrific kata going.  

Heian/Pinan katas are also very very important, and we always go back to these throughout our training.


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## tshadowchaser (May 25, 2006)

Difficult question for all are important.
The first one you learn may be the most important because if you don't learn it you don't larn the rest.
I consider Sanchin to be one of the most important but there are others within my system that I put at the same level


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## Explorer (May 25, 2006)

PPKO -

Looks like we run in some of the same circles ... have you ever attended one of the DKI seminars in Channahon IL with Dusty Seale OR attended the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai in Madison WI with Chris Thomas?


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## ppko (May 26, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> PPKO -
> 
> Looks like we run in some of the same circles ... have you ever attended one of the DKI seminars in Channahon IL with Dusty Seale OR attended the Kyusho Jitsu Kenkukai in Madison WI with Chris Thomas?


No I have not been to Channahon but Dusty was my first DKI instructor, and he is one hell of a guy, I have not met Chris Thomas yet niether, I go to the camps every year, and make as many seminars as my wife will allow, ut he has not been to any yet that I have been too


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## Makalakumu (May 26, 2006)

Would anyone consider Bassai Dai?  This kata takes years and years of study.  There are so many moves, so many applications, and so many layers.  It's got effective blocking, striking, locking and throwing.  Many people describe Bassai Dai as its own martial art.


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## Explorer (May 26, 2006)

> upnorthkyosa said:
> 
> 
> 
> > Would anyone consider Bassai Dai? This kata takes years and years of study. There are so many moves, so many applications, and so many layers. It's got effective blocking, striking, locking and throwing. Many people describe Bassai Dai as its own martial art.


 
I once read a book ... can't remember the name or the author... it was a Japanese sensei ... I'll try to find it.  He said something I'll never forget (besides his name or the title of his book) ... anyway, his opinion is that every kata is a master's kata.  If you have the tools to comprehensively interpret kata then every kata is capable of offering great self defense techniques.  Also, Master Thomas' opinion is you only need one kata really ... if you know how to break it down ... one is more than enough. 

That being said, Chris practices 20 or 25 open hand kata!    He just like's 'em.


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## BlackCatBonz (May 27, 2006)

I would have to say Tensho or Naihanchi........it's too hard to pick between those 2.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 27, 2006)

Naihanchi / Tekki Series and Kusanku Dai or Kanku Dai.  Kusnaku pretty much has everything at least close to it but when you look at Pinan / Heian series there are a few other waza thats not in Kusanku or Kanku Dai.  I chose these kata for my styles ciriculum:
Kihon Kata (first one is indentical to Taikiyoku Shodan)
Pinan 1-5 some of my students have learned the Heian Series
Naihanchi 1-3
Passai Sho or Bassai Dai
Bassai Sho
Kusanku Dai or Kanku Dai
Hangetsu
Empi
Jion

Once I finish learning Gojushiho and practice it for a couple years I will probably add it to the list also.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (May 28, 2006)

my personal most important solo kata list

from goju: gekisai, sanchin, tensho

from wado: naihanchi, seishan, niseishi

those kata fits my personal outlook of health and self-defense. sanchin, tensho, seishan and naihanchi are good for health. gekisai and niseishi contains great self-defense techniques, and are good to train basic techniques too.


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## Wes Tasker (May 29, 2006)

Just my humble opinion-

Goju - Seiunchin: a great embodiment of hard and soft

Uechi - Seisan: a great snapshot of the Chinese influences that includes aspects of both Sanchin and Sanseiru

Shito - any of the Gokenki taught White Crane kata: because the are so rare

Shorin - Kusanku: it always seemed to embody all the mechanics and major strategies of the system to me, at least Matsubayashi

Wado - any of the Jujutsu kata that are hopefully being preserved somewhere and not just the Shotokan Kata that Otsuka Sensei taught.  I think the Jujutsu is the key to the bunkai and oyo of the kata as Otsuka Sensei taught them.

-wes tasker


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## Andrew Green (May 29, 2006)

Now here's another question, do you think you can learn something about a person's understanding of their system based on what they answer?


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## Brandon Fisher (May 29, 2006)

Not so much the answer as the interpertation they give you of the kata.


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## Cirdan (May 29, 2006)

I am still learning the Pinan and tough I have studied the more advanced kata a bit I have no idea wich one is of greatest importance. However what you learn above black belt is generally considered to be way more important once you have a solid foundation to build upon.

Personally, right now, I`d chose Kushanku for my only kata beacuse you find a lot to work with there and much stuff from the Pinan series.


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## Makalakumu (May 29, 2006)

I know that I suggested Bassai above, but in reality, I couldn't pick one kata in particular.  I would say that the most important kata is the one that you fully understand.


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## Henderson (May 29, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Now here's another question, do you think you can learn something about a person's understanding of their system based on what they answer?


 
That seemed the intention of this thread from the beginning. :lfao:


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jun 3, 2006)

Wes Tasker said:
			
		

> Wado - any of the Jujutsu kata that are hopefully being preserved somewhere and not just the Shotokan Kata that Otsuka Sensei taught. I think the Jujutsu is the key to the bunkai and oyo of the kata as Otsuka Sensei taught them.
> 
> -wes tasker


 
Unfortunately there are not much solo / one man kata of jujutsu left in the Wado system, what's left only some solo training forms on how to use several hand strikes within one second remaining, and some training drills on how to use the knife and sword.

My sensei taught a lot of paired / two man jujutsu katas of wado, which consists of idori (both the 7 waza and 10 waza versions), fujin goshinjutsu (5), gyakunage (10, but many said this is not an official kata), and tantodori (both the 7 waza and 10 waza versions). he demonstrate also tachidori (sword defenses) but to this day we never really learned the kata, just some taisabaki movements from that kata.


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## Cirdan (Jun 3, 2006)

I had a conversation about stances (wado) with my sensei a few days ago and he told me that all you need is present in Pinan Nidan, it is just not very apperant. I was a bit doubtful at first but after thinking about it I must agree. Toughts?


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## Wes Tasker (Jun 3, 2006)

Cirdan-

We could actually turn this into an interesting exercise if you would care to list the tachi / kamae used in your school's version of Pinan Nidan.  Then we could examine how your Sensei's statement might play out.  If you didn't mind....

-wes tasker


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## Cirdan (Jun 3, 2006)

Wes Tasker said:
			
		

> Cirdan-
> 
> We could actually turn this into an interesting exercise if you would care to list the tachi / kamae used in your school's version of Pinan Nidan. Then we could examine how your Sensei's statement might play out. If you didn't mind....
> 
> -wes tasker


 
The following is a breakdown of Pinan Nidan (from a dvd with Hiroji Fukazawa.) Except for a few details this is how our club do this kata.


Musubi dachi - Rei/Shizentai yoi

90 degree left turn. Mahamni no neko ashi dachi left - Gedan tetsui otoshi uke left / move forward Junzuki dachi right - Junzuki right

About-turn to the right: Junzuki dachi right - Gedan barai / release Tetsui otoshi uke right bringing back the front foot in Migishizentai / move forward: Junzuki dachi right - Junzuki right

90 degree to the left: Junzuki dachi left - Gedan barai / move forward: Junzuki dachi right - Jodan age uke right.
Move forward: Junzuki dachi left - Jodan age uke left / move forward: Junzuki dachi right - Jodan age uke right + Kiai

Rotate 225 degrees to the left: Junzuki dachi left - Gedan barai left / move forward Junzuki dachi right - Junzuki right

90 degrees to the right: Junzuki dachi right -Gedan barai right / move forward Junzuki dachi left - Junzuki left

45 degrees to the left: Junzuki dachi left - Gedan barai left / move forward Junzuki dachi right - Junzuki right.
Move forward Junzuki dachi left - Oi zuki left / move forward Junzuki dachi right -Junzuki right + Kiai

Rotate on right foot 225 degrees to the left: Shomen no neko ashi dachi - move forward the left foot: Shiko dachi left - (Yonhon)Nukite left / move forward Shiko dachi right - Nukite left

Rotate on the left foot 90 degrees to the right: Shomen no neko ashi dachi - move forward the right foot: Shiko dachi right - Nukite right / move forward Shiko dachi left - Nukite left

Return to Shizentai/Musubi dachi - Rei


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 3, 2006)

Cirdan,
I don't really understand what you mean by this comment 





> all you need is present in Pinan Nidan


 Can you clarify a bit please?


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## Cirdan (Jun 3, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Cirdan,
> I don't really understand what you mean by this comment Can you clarify a bit please?


 
My sensei`s argument was basically was that all stances we use are present in Pinan Nidan in some form.


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## Wes Tasker (Jun 3, 2006)

Cirdan-

Thanks for that...  One question - is your "junzuki dachi" the same as a "zenkutsu dachi" or front stance in other systems, or is it different?  Thanks again.

-wes tasker


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## Cirdan (Jun 3, 2006)

Wes Tasker said:
			
		

> Cirdan-
> 
> Thanks for that... One question - is your "junzuki dachi" the same as a "zenkutsu dachi" or front stance in other systems, or is it different? Thanks again.
> 
> -wes tasker


 
I think so yes. My knowledge of other systems is a bit limited. The tip of the front knee is right above the big toe and unlike Shotokan, Wado tilts the torso slightly forward. The stance might also be slightly higher. The half-moon trajectory has been discarded so we move the feet straight forward.


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 4, 2006)

Well I would agree with your Sensei for the most part.  Kiba Dachi or Naihanchi-Dachi isn't there and I am not sure about the Wado Ryu version of Pinan Nidan but Kokutsu-Dachi isn't either.

However stand up positions, Cat Stances, Front Stances are.  Those really are the primary stances I think.  At least ones that seem to be used the most.


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## Cirdan (Jun 4, 2006)

Brandon Fisher said:
			
		

> Well I would agree with your Sensei for the most part. Kiba Dachi or Naihanchi-Dachi isn't there and I am not sure about the Wado Ryu version of Pinan Nidan but Kokutsu-Dachi isn't either.


 
Are you sure these are not present in a similar form or as a "between" position? One of the things my instructor tried to tell me was that many stances are the same with only the torso twisted differently.

Can Kokutsu dachi can be said to be in Pinan Nidan when you move from cat stance to Shiko dachi and strike Yonhon nukite the first time?


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## Brandon Fisher (Jun 4, 2006)

In transition I would say you could recognize it however I feel a stance is not in transition mode it is made even for a second with the block, strike or kick.  But again it depends on the system philosophy.


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## TheHeathen (Jun 25, 2006)

Not quoting or picking any particular post.. just using this as a jumping off point..

I would consider that the MOST IMPORTANT KATA is one of two things.

Both are very ambiguous.

It is either..

1. The very first kata that you learn in your chosen style.
--Reason being. It is the base on which you build all your other kata. The first kata will usually make or break a (potential) karateka. Once the first kata is out of the way and learned, it becomes apparent to the student that they either can or cannot do this. Thankfully, most people decide to continue on, and using that skill gained from learning the first kata, they are able to perform all the other kata that they are taught.

or

2. Your competition kata, if you compete.. this could also be altered to say, "Your favorite kata to perform". You will always devote more time and effort to the kata, any/all of them that you like. However, if you compete and you have one kata that you use for that, it will become the most important kata to YOU. You will give it more of your "attention to detail" and effort.

Kata, IMHO is about perspective. I believe there is room for interpretation in many different kata. Obviously, the more basic kata are less subjective, and have a fairly "set in stone" interpretation. But as kata get more advanced, there are some techniques that become more open to interpretation.. many times based on style, but also based on personal perspective.


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## melj7077 (Jul 29, 2006)

Of the nine forms I require and teach I consider Naihanchi and Rohai the two most important as they contain most of the base information you'd need to understand the system.


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## Robert Lee (Jul 30, 2006)

I was told before that sanchin Kata is very important And some could do it for 20 years and never know its meaning. It teaches proper breathing proper dynamics of the body when striking and blocking But with out looking or being told what to look for it takes years to understand. So for Goju Ryu It is important Now all the old Kata Koryu katas They hold the key that makes Karate what it is So they are very important to all the styles That have retained them And its been said they should never be changed The newer katas since say 1930 They can be up dated alterd as they are not the key to the orginal Arts that Karate evolved from.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 26, 2007)

The traditional system I have a teaching credential in teaches 29 kata. Of all of them I'm most partial to Gei Kisai and Patsai Dai.


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## jtbdad (Mar 27, 2007)

This may seem like a cop out guys but to me the most important Kata is whichever one I am working on at the time.  I don't mean to sound esoterical or anything but all Kata at least in some ways are the same kata.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 27, 2007)

I was going to suggest that the first four forms of Seiza No Bu plus the first four of Batto Ho might be a candidate for the 'core concepts' kata series ... then I realised I was in the Karate fora and that that might just be a tad off topic :O.

Sorry chaps ... blame it on using the New Posts link to check what's going on :blush:.


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 27, 2007)

Short form 1 (style is unimportant)


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## D.Cobb (Apr 6, 2007)

Robert Lee said:


> I was told before that sanchin Kata is very important And some could do it for 20 years and never know its meaning. It teaches proper breathing proper dynamics of the body when striking and blocking But with out looking or being told what to look for it takes years to understand. So for Goju Ryu It is important Now all the old Kata Koryu katas They hold the key that makes Karate what it is So they are very important to all the styles That have retained them And its been said they should never be changed The newer katas since say 1930 They can be up dated alterd as they are not the key to the orginal Arts that Karate evolved from.


 
Sanchin kata, is the most important. I believe it was Chojun Miyagi who said, "If your Sanchin kata is no good, then your karate is no good either." Or something to that effect. 
My Senseii tells it this way, "When I see you do Sanchin kata correctly, then I can walk out and not come back. Because then, you won't need me any more."

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (Apr 6, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> Short form 1 (style is unimportant)


 
Short Form 1, Taikyoku, Gekesai, etc. These katas are primarily meant to teach the individual stances and transitions between them, to beginners. Once the beginner has learnt these stances transitions and accompanying blocks and strikes, then they can be taught the core katas of their respective styles.

It's the core katas that are important.

--Dave


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## Chizikunbo (Apr 6, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Style you do and what YOU consider the most important kata, If there is one that seems to generally be considered the most important give that too
> 
> Seisan? Sanchin? Naihanchi? Pinan Series? What's the one you'd keep if you could only keep one?


 
Personally I think that Naihanchi Shodan is one of the most important Kata, and my personal favorite.
The bunkai concepts presented in this form, have taught me more about martial arts, than any other form I have studied....
--Josh


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## IWishToLearn (Apr 9, 2007)

TheHeathen said:


> Not quoting or picking any particular post.. just using this as a jumping off point..
> 
> I would consider that the MOST IMPORTANT KATA is one of two things.
> 
> ...



Just a thought in respect to point #1: I've watched trial classes at several schools wherein they teach a very poor "first kata" just to give people the impression that they'll be able to efficiently learn the system, and then slam them with extremely high tuition rates. In each case, it was a case of McDojo at work. Whee.


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## cstanley (Apr 9, 2007)

For the Shorin/Shito ryu/Shuri based styles, the 5 Pinan are the essential and most important kata. Sanchin is almost universally named as most important by Goju stylists, and Naihanchi has to be somewhere in the most important group. Everything else is gravy.


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## chinto (Apr 18, 2007)

all of the kata in a system are important!  and diferent systems start with diferent kata. the system i study is one that till a few years ago started out with seisan as the very first kata. I would say every kata is as important as any other just for different reasons.


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## seasoned (Apr 26, 2007)

Okinawan GoJu-Ryu 2 by Seikichi Toguchi is a very good read for any 
serious karate person. Back on subject Sanchin is the foundation kata.


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## seasoned (Apr 28, 2007)

chinto said:


> all of the kata in a system are important! and diferent systems start with diferent kata. the system i study is one that till a few years ago started out with seisan as the very first kata. I would say every kata is as important as any other just for different reasons.


 
If I may I would like to comment on the above. 
In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all


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## searcher (May 13, 2007)

Style: Chito-ryu  Kata: Seisan


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## cstanley (May 13, 2007)

seasoned said:


> If I may I would like to comment on the above.
> In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all


 
What you say is very true. Shito ryu incorporates Sanchin fairly early, although it isn't taught first. For the Shuri/Itosu/ Mabuni lineage ryu, the Pinan are the building blocks. They are sort of the kata alphabet. Sanchin is usually taught after Ten No, Chino (Fukyugata), the Pinan, and Naihanchi. This just reflects the differences in philosophy and training between the Naha and Shuri/Tomari ryu. I have asked several Okinawan instructors and some Western instructors what kata are most important to them. All said the Pinan. If I had to give up all my kata but a few, I'd keep the 5 Pinan.
BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"


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## searcher (May 13, 2007)

cstanley said:


> BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"


 
I could not agree more with you.   The reason our style uses seisan as its "base" is because O-sensei Chitose spent the early years of his training working only on this kata under the guidance of Seisho Aragaki, before he was allowed to move on to other training.   As far as the favorite thing, there are already threads on this.   Mine happens to be either Sochin or Niseishi, to tough to decide.


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## cstanley (May 13, 2007)

searcher said:


> I could not agree more with you. The reason our style uses seisan as its "base" is because O-sensei Chitose spent the early years of his training working only on this kata under the guidance of Seisho Aragaki, before he was allowed to move on to other training. As far as the favorite thing, there are already threads on this. Mine happens to be either Sochin or Niseishi, to tough to decide.


 
I do the Arakaki Sochin. My guess is that you probably do, too. That is a fine kata and one of my favorites. Gojushiho and Rohai are my two favorites, however.


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## chinto (May 14, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> I am still learning the Pinan and tough I have studied the more advanced kata a bit I have no idea wich one is of greatest importance. However what you learn above black belt is generally considered to be way more important once you have a solid foundation to build upon.
> 
> Personally, right now, I`d chose Kushanku for my only kata beacuse you find a lot to work with there and much stuff from the Pinan series.


 

I would have to coment that your statement about what you learn above black belt ( shodan ho or shodan ) is more importent. that would depend on the system. in the system I am a student of you learn all the empty hand kata of the system and polish them to a fair degree before you test for shodan ho. after all they are the test criteria.  you also learn kobujitsu/kobudo and test on the weapons you know, but there you may indeed learn more weapons kata after that point of testing for shodan ho.


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## chinto (May 14, 2007)

seasoned said:


> If I may I would like to comment on the above.
> In order for our style or any for that matter to be considered an art it must have a progression to it. As with a musical instrument you start with the basics and everything else is built off of that. In the case of Sanchin it contains the essence and root of all other techniques. For this reason it was taught first and in some cases unless you persevered over many years you were never given anything else. The key elements of our art does not begin with techniques but with breath control, structure, and proper movement, all of which sanchin teaches us. Once you have these foundational elements then you can begin to incorporate them into all of your kata, or techniques. Traditional Karate is like building a house, foundation first, structure then the finer work last. I feel this is why some of our greatest masters looked so smooth and fast but when they hit it was very meaningful. Please lets dialog to see how others feel about this. Maybe some lukers will put their 2cents in. It is hard to express with a key board what I am trying to say but let it be known that I always type with the spirt of respect for all


 
 yes there is a progression, how ever diferent systems have diferent doctrins and progressions.  the system i study added fyu kyu kata to make the initial entry a lot easier for new students, but if you look you will find that for the okinawan kata's the oldest empty hand kata is seisan.  it teaches all kinds of the fundimentals. so im not sure why you would some how think that i am saying that the fundimentals are not important, after all the fundimentals are what make up all the kata just mixed up and moved around and used a bit diferently.  each system starts diferently.  the systems of goju starts with sanchin kata and uechi ryu start as with it as well. But, meany other systems do not.


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## chinto (May 14, 2007)

cstanley said:


> What you say is very true. Shito ryu incorporates Sanchin fairly early, although it isn't taught first. For the Shuri/Itosu/ Mabuni lineage ryu, the Pinan are the building blocks. They are sort of the kata alphabet. Sanchin is usually taught after Ten No, Chino (Fukyugata), the Pinan, and Naihanchi. This just reflects the differences in philosophy and training between the Naha and Shuri/Tomari ryu. I have asked several Okinawan instructors and some Western instructors what kata are most important to them. All said the Pinan. If I had to give up all my kata but a few, I'd keep the 5 Pinan.
> BTW, there is a difference between "most important" and "favorite." Anybody want to do a thread on "what is your favorite kata?"


 
I would have to say seisan is one of the most important as it is the oldest and a basis there for, but i would give up the pinan kata to keep kusanku and kusanku dai. all that is in the pinan is in the kusanku katas. I would however say that every kata has a great deal to teach you.


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## Grenadier (May 14, 2007)

I posted earlier in this thread, regarding empty hand kata, but I'll also post from a kobudo viewpoint as well.  

In the Yamanni-Ryu kobudo system, the bojutsu kata has a most interesting history.  Originally, kata Tsuji No Kon was the first one to be taught to the students, but as it turns out, it is rather complex, and in retrospect, probably too complex for your "average" student to learn first.  

Therefore, the Don Nyu Kon kata series (ichi, ni) are taught first these days, since they help refine your basic bo techniques to the point where you can then be ready to learn the more complex kata.  This is why I would have to say that the Don Nyu Kon kata are extremely important, since they're easy to learn, but give you a good foundation on which you can build.  Once students have the two above kata, then they can learn Tsuji No Kon much more effectively.  

The Chou No Kon kata series (sho, dai) are also very important, since they teach you manipulation of the bo that incorporates multiple strikes in what looks like a fast flurry of strikes, as well as really hitting weight shifting, so that by the time you have learned the Don Nyu Kon and Chou No Kon kata series, learning the next kata, Ryu Bi No Kon, takes only a single session in most people's cases.


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## seasoned (May 17, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Now here's another question, do you think you can learn something about a person's understanding of their system based on what they answer?


 
Very good, and yes you can. What they say is what they train with. Everyone looks for something that they want. May money is on Sanchin, 
boring but necessary to best grasp the principles of the art.


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## cstanley (May 18, 2007)

I agree with Seasoned. How they answer says a lot. For the Naha based ryu, Sanchin is invariably the answer seniors give. I have heard Tensho given, as well as Seisan. Those are in the ball park, but you can't really understand them without Sanchin. 

For the Shuri based ryu, I have to say the Pinan...all 5 as a unit. I know that many say Kosokun (Kushanku), and that would be ok, too, because the Pinan are derived, in part, from it. But, there are just some things in Pinan that you miss in Kosokun. 

The difference in responses is just indicative of the different philosophies and origins of the ryu. We do the Naha kata in Shito ryu, but the emphasis is different. In spite of the fact that Mabuni incorporated the Naha kata, we are still primarily a Shuri/Tomari ryu. Nobody does Goju like a true Goju practitioner. There is just something missing if you haven't been Goju all your karate life. But, these are the nuances that make it all so interesting.


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## chinto (May 19, 2007)

cstanley said:


> I agree with Seasoned. How they answer says a lot. For the Naha based ryu, Sanchin is invariably the answer seniors give. I have heard Tensho given, as well as Seisan. Those are in the ball park, but you can't really understand them without Sanchin.
> 
> For the Shuri based ryu, I have to say the Pinan...all 5 as a unit. I know that many say Kosokun (Kushanku), and that would be ok, too, because the Pinan are derived, in part, from it. But, there are just some things in Pinan that you miss in Kosokun.
> 
> The difference in responses is just indicative of the different philosophies and origins of the ryu. We do the Naha kata in Shito ryu, but the emphasis is different. In spite of the fact that Mabuni incorporated the Naha kata, we are still primarily a Shuri/Tomari ryu. Nobody does Goju like a true Goju practitioner. There is just something missing if you haven't been Goju all your karate life. But, these are the nuances that make it all so interesting.


 
actualy the kusanku and kusanku dai have every thing in all 5 pinan kata and a bit more. so i would say that the kusanku kata's are more important as that is where there is evedence that Itosu developed the 5 pinan kata from.


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## cstanley (May 19, 2007)

chinto said:


> actualy the kusanku and kusanku dai have every thing in all 5 pinan kata and a bit more. so i would say that the kusanku kata's are more important as that is where there is evedence that Itosu developed the 5 pinan kata from.


 
No, they do not. Go through them. The Pinan are actually more subtle than the Kosokun kata, and have potential for more jujutsu waza. Most of the sequences in Pinan Sandan and Pinan Godan are totally lacking in the Kosokun. BTW, Kushanku (dai) is Kosokun Dai. Then there is Kosokun Sho (Kushanku Sho).


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## searcher (May 19, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Gojushiho and Rohai are my two favorites, however.


 
They are both fine forms.  We have two variations of Rohai that we use.


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## chinto (May 20, 2007)

cstanley said:


> No, they do not. Go through them. The Pinan are actually more subtle than the Kosokun kata, and have potential for more jujutsu waza. Most of the sequences in Pinan Sandan and Pinan Godan are totally lacking in the Kosokun. BTW, Kushanku (dai) is Kosokun Dai. Then there is Kosokun Sho (Kushanku Sho).


 

I dont know which version of the kusanku katas you are doing.  yes there is kusanku sho and kusanku dai, and there are some diferences in them if they are from the shuri linige or the tamari linage. what we use is the tamari version. also there is a fairly large variation in the pinan kata between styles  from what i have seen. but there is a great deal of potential for what you are calling "jujitsu waza" which is as native to karate as it is to jujitsu, as Okinawan karate has always used joint locks and manipulations and traps and brakes and yes even throws, in the kusanku katas as in the pinan katas.  that is not to say that the pinan kata are not very very valuable! becouse they are, but if i had to give up one or the other, i would give up the pinan kata first.  

which linige does your kusanku katas come from?  I also wonder what your pinan kata look like.  for instance the pinan katas of  matsumura seito is very very diferent then what we do in shobayashi shorin ryu.  that is not to say better you understand, mearly that it is diferent.


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## searcher (May 20, 2007)

If it has not been brought up yet:  The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 20, 2007)

searcher said:


> If it has not been brought up yet: The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.


Yep they sure were.  But you would need to look at the older versions of Kusanku and not so much the Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai to really see it but you can see it in them.


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## tshadowchaser (May 20, 2007)

Jumping away from the current discussion it still seems to me that the most important kata one learns is the first one he/she learns. Without that one the basic movement, correct posture, etc. will never be learned and all of the other kata will be flawed if the first one is not learns correctly, no matter what system one learns


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## cstanley (May 20, 2007)

The Pinan were taken from Kosokun (Kushanku) and a kata called Channan, which has been lost to history. And, no, the Channan kata has not been rediscovered despite the gang of wannabees writing books claiming to have found it. It is like some kind of Holy Grail or something. Anyway, the Pinan are essential kata for the Shuri based ryu. 

In response to the question which version of Pinan I do, they are the Motobu ha Shito ryu version of Shogo Kuniba. They are very much like the Matsubayashi Shorin versions, but the cat stances are deeper and we use an old stance called "su dachi" a lot. There are other minor differences. You can find a reasonable approximation of them on the Shito Kai website, but I find the performances uninspiring though technically very good. There is a lot of Shito ryu in Ga.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 20, 2007)

I have never heard Kusanku be called Kosokun before.


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## cstanley (May 20, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> I have never heard Kusanku be called Kosokun before.


 
Yes, Kosokun is the Japanese name that is often used for those kata. Some use Kanku Dai and Sho, and others keep the Chinese name, Kushanku. But, they refer to the same kata.


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## searcher (May 20, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Jumping away from the current discussion it still seems to me that the most important kata one learns is the first one he/she learns. Without that one the basic movement, correct posture, etc. will never be learned and all of the other kata will be flawed if the first one is not learns correctly, no matter what system one learns


 

But doesn't that fall under the training of basics?    It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.

In the words of Linda Richman, "discuss."


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## cstanley (May 20, 2007)

searcher said:


> But doesn't that fall under the training of basics? It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.
> 
> In the words of Linda Richman, "discuss."


 

I think we were speaking of the most important kata as in reflective of the nature and philosophy of each ryu. What you say  is true on an individual level. Kata is basics, by the way.


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## Hand Sword (May 20, 2007)

For my very tardy response (my apologies to you all :asian would be the very first kata taught to people. It is the foundation from which all of the others are built from. Also, if you have to be away for a while (which I think we all do for one reason or another at some point), decide to come back and knock the tons of rust off, you have to start there (at the beginning) again. Plus, for me that seemed to be the one I knew, and didn't have to think about after the time off.


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## tshadowchaser (May 20, 2007)

> But doesn't that fall under the training of basics? It seems to me that this area (basic movement, correct posture, etc.) falls under the training of basics andless under the umbrella of kata, if you have somewhat of a seperation in your training.


true
 but if those principles are not reinforced in the first kata then why even do the kata. The first one will be the foundation upon which all others follow. If the first one is sloopy in its posture and movement then so will all others.  Thats about all I was trying to say


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## Brandon Fisher (May 20, 2007)

cstanley said:


> Yes, Kosokun is the Japanese name that is often used for those kata. Some use Kanku Dai and Sho, and others keep the Chinese name, Kushanku. But, they refer to the same kata.


Ok thanks


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## chinto (May 21, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Yep they sure were. But you would need to look at the older versions of Kusanku and not so much the Kusanku Sho and Kusanku Dai to really see it but you can see it in them.[/quote
> 
> 
> I would need to see what you are calling "the older versions of Kusanku" to be sure, but I beleave that is what we are tought. we practice the same Kusanku sho and Dai that were tought by Master Kyan.   ( the old tamari te version.)  the katas have not been changed from what master kyan tought and so perhaps are exactly what you are talking about? but I can tell you they are the same katas that Chotoku Kyan tought when he started teaching and with out change.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 21, 2007)

Those would be one of the versions I am talking about along with the version that is taught in Matsumura Shorin Ryu.


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## chinto (May 21, 2007)

Brandon Fisher said:


> Those would be one of the versions I am talking about along with the version that is taught in Matsumura Shorin Ryu.


 

ahh ok,  then you understand why if I had to give up one of the sets of kata i would give up the pinan before the kusanku katas. but really would never give up either if I could help it :jediduel:


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## chinto (May 21, 2007)

searcher said:


> If it has not been brought up yet: The Pinans were developed from the Kusanku kata.


 

Yep, actualy I did bring that up earler, but its nice to have some one else who knows the same thing say it.  but also it turns out he may have been thinking I was refering to some sort of  version of kusanku that is more modern in formulation or something. that is what is in a later post of his. so I think we are actualy pretty much on the same page all around perhaps.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 21, 2007)

chinto said:


> ahh ok, then you understand why if I had to give up one of the sets of kata i would give up the pinan before the kusanku katas. but really would never give up either if I could help it :jediduel:


Yep sure do


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## cstanley (May 21, 2007)

The Kushanku from the Choto Kyan line is called "Chatan Yara no Kushanku." It is a bit different from the Itosu/Sakugawa lineage Kushanku, but in the same ball park. It is considered the highest kata of the Matsubayashi Shorin ryu. We consider Gojushiho to be one of the highest kata. Kosokun Dai is usually taught for shodan/nidan.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 21, 2007)

You just jogged my memory I forgot that Matsubayashi Ryu used Chatan Yara Kusanku.


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## chinto (May 22, 2007)

cstanley said:


> The Kushanku from the Choto Kyan line is called "Chatan Yara no Kushanku." It is a bit different from the Itosu/Sakugawa lineage Kushanku, but in the same ball park. It is considered the highest kata of the Matsubayashi Shorin ryu. We consider Gojushiho to be one of the highest kata. Kosokun Dai is usually taught for shodan/nidan.


 
OK, we just call them kusanku sho and kusanku dai. and all our empty hand kata are tested in the shodan ho testing.  we learn the kusanku kata and several others at brown belt level. I have not heard the term chatan yara no kusanku myself. when i think of chatan yara  I think of the bo/kun kata  chatan yara no kun.  but either way both are from the tamari te linage. 

but thanks for the information!


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 3, 2007)

For Chito-Ryu, Seisan.


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## chinto (Jun 5, 2007)

Em MacIntosh said:


> For Chito-Ryu, Seisan.


 

shobayashi shorin ryu  ...one of them would have to be seisan as well.


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## Arthur (Jan 18, 2008)

In Karate context... Nahanchi Shodan. 

In Judo... Ju No Kata

In Xing Yi... Pi Quan 

In Ba Gua...  Single Palm Change

etc. Fundemental forms, are fundemental forms for a reason.

My thoughts anyway.

Arthur


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## Jin Gang (Jan 18, 2008)

People keep saying "basics" are the most important kata, essentially.  I'd like to mix it up a bit, and say that I disagree, at least in semantics.  Basics are basics, they aren't a kata.  I don't consider the fuyugata and taikyoku type kata to really be important as fighting kata, they're just groups of basics strung together.  Obviously, if you don't know your basics, no kata is going to mean anything.  The one kata I'd want to have, if I could only have one, would be the one that encapsuled the strategies and combinations which had the greatest depth/variety.  for matsubayashi ryu, this would be either kusanku, gojushiho, chinto, passai, or maybe naihanchi.  Each of these kata could be their own seperate "styles", and probably were at one point.  You can extract basics from each of them, and drill them with partners and on bags/makiwara.  The basic kata of various systems, including the pinan, are exactly this...techniques extracted from the traditional kata and reformed into shorter/simplified drills.  

It's hard for me to choose one kata, but I think I'd pick Chinto.  I like the shoulder/elbow bump, the arm dropping, the spinning techniques, and the simultaneous block/strike...reminiscent of some other arts I've studied.  

If I could have two, I'd throw rohai in there, too (the matsubayashi/tomari version).  I just like it, even though it's really short.


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## Shinzen (Jan 26, 2008)

If I had one kata to teach it would be Sanchin (Uechi-ryu version). 
It is simple in design, but very complex in its teachings, encompassing more than just developing core strength for self-defense.  It carries with it deeper philosophical and spiritual significance...but then again, I have had so many kicks to the head it's just easy for me to remember.


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## cstanley (Jan 29, 2008)

chinto said:


> OK, we just call them kusanku sho and kusanku dai. and all our empty hand kata are tested in the shodan ho testing. we learn the kusanku kata and several others at brown belt level. I have not heard the term chatan yara no kusanku myself. when i think of chatan yara I think of the bo/kun kata chatan yara no kun. but either way both are from the tamari te linage.
> 
> but thanks for the information!


 
Kusanku (Kosokun) dai and sho are very different kata. Chatan Yara KSK is a significantly different version of KSK than the Itosu one. Check it out at the Shito Kai website or in Nagamine's book on Okinawan karate.


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## chinto (Feb 1, 2008)

cstanley said:


> Kusanku (Kosokun) dai and sho are very different kata. Chatan Yara KSK is a significantly different version of KSK than the Itosu one. Check it out at the Shito Kai website or in Nagamine's book on Okinawan karate.



our kusanku and passai kata are all tamari-te in linage.. they are NOT the Itosu katas, nore is our chinto kata.   the Itosu versions are significantly different.


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