# John Pellegrini



## MJS

In the June issue of BB magazine there was a very interesting article about John Pellegrini and his brand of Hapkido.  He goes on to explain what he does in his system and how its different from the more traditional Hapkido systems.  In the magazines to come, there have been many articles submitted by people.  Some of them are very supportive of his style while others seem to be very critical about what he has done to the art.

While I am not a student of Mr. Pellegrini or of Hapkido, I have attended a seminar put on by him at a local MA school.  Not really knowing what to expect, I went anyway.  I have to say that I was very impressed with what I saw.  The material that he taught was IMO, pretty straight forward.  He covered many defenses while standing as well as on the ground. 

My question is, what do the people on this forum think about Mr. Pellegrini and what he has done to the art?  Was he wrong to take out some of the more traditional things such as the high kicks, kata, etc. or did he do a good thing?

Mike


----------



## Disco

The amount of political mayhem that lives within the world of Hapkido is mindboggling. We'll just leave it at that. To be succinct, Mr. P. is a grandmaster of marketing. His actual martial arts background is/was/has been debated many times with nothing conclusive emerging. Be that as it may, what he teaches seems to fill a void and people seem satisfied and impressed. My personal heartburn is the fact that once you become a student, it's a constant buy, buy, buy. It's "mandatory" for Black Belts to invest in all the systems tapes to go up in the BB ranks. Mabey it's just me, but I find that mandate repugnant. But no more so than another Hapkidoists claim that theirs is the only game in town and if your not with them then your a fraud. 

Hapkido, the art/style/discipline/way of life or whatever one wishes to label it is a very fine element of the martial arts in general. To answer your question as to if he was wrong to take out traditional things such as katas/hyungs, high kicks etc. Some styles of Hapkido have no forms and some styles have no kicks and some styles have both and some do not. Mr. Pellegrini didn't invent anything new or different, he just did a masterful repackage job.


----------



## Hollywood1340

It works for me  GMP is a good man, and the ICHF is a good organazation. Is it for everybody? No. And as in most arts, the secret is in the instructor. CHKD can be an wonderful addition to any art, or can be a stand alone system. Or you can chose not to train in it. Wonderful, isn't it?


----------



## Shiatsu

How tall is Mr. P?


----------



## MartialArtsChic

Works for me too!


----------



## Mithios

I train in both classical H.K.D. and C.H.K.D. And in my opinion. C.H.K.D. is a good system. For the thing's J.P. has taken out ( meditation, ki exercises, high kick's etc. ) He has added in     ( jeet kune do style trapping,  a different weapon's methodology, and more ground grappeling )      Mithios


----------



## Hollywood1340

> _Originally posted by Shiatsu _
> *How tall is Mr. P? *


I consider my self to be about 5' 8" and I'm slouching a bit...I'd say around the same.


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Disco _
> *The amount of political mayhem that lives within the world of Hapkido is mindboggling. We'll just leave it at that. To be succinct, Mr. P. is a grandmaster of marketing. His actual martial arts background is/was/has been debated many times with nothing conclusive emerging. Be that as it may, what he teaches seems to fill a void and people seem satisfied and impressed. My personal heartburn is the fact that once you become a student, it's a constant buy, buy, buy. It's "mandatory" for Black Belts to invest in all the systems tapes to go up in the BB ranks. Mabey it's just me, but I find that mandate repugnant. But no more so than another Hapkidoists claim that theirs is the only game in town and if your not with them then your a fraud.
> 
> Hapkido, the art/style/discipline/way of life or whatever one wishes to label it is a very fine element of the martial arts in general. To answer your question as to if he was wrong to take out traditional things such as katas/hyungs, high kicks etc. Some styles of Hapkido have no forms and some styles have no kicks and some styles have both and some do not. Mr. Pellegrini didn't invent anything new or different, he just did a masterful repackage job. *



Isnt it like that with all or a good portion of the orgs. today?  I mean, if you want to be a part of the org. you have to support it, either by buying tapes or having the head person in for a certain amount of seminars a year.

Mike


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by Mithios _
> *I train in both classical H.K.D. and C.H.K.D. And in my opinion. C.H.K.D. is a good system. For the thing's J.P. has taken out ( meditation, ki exercises, high kick's etc. ) He has added in     ( jeet kune do style trapping,  a different weapon's methodology, and more ground grappeling )      Mithios *



Thats probably why I liked it so much.  I love the Filipino arts, and am a huge fan of grappling.  To me, it seems like he took out the things that either dont stand much of a chance of working or that are too flashy, and added in the simple, to the point things, that are going to work!  

Mike


----------



## Master Todd Miller

+The only isse I would have with Master Pelligrini is how he says he founded a new style of Hapkido with very little Hapkido training.  To use the term Hapkido is not exactly true.  I know what he teaches is good for another system with very little joint manipulation in there style but for someone who wants to learn the original off balencing Hapkido will want to go elsewhere.

Todd M.


----------



## Hollywood1340

> _Originally posted by Master Todd Miller _
> *+The only isse I would have with Master Pelligrini is how he says he founded a new style of Hapkido with very little Hapkido training.  To use the term Hapkido is not exactly true.  I know what he teaches is good for another system with very little joint manipulation in there style but for someone who wants to learn the original off balencing Hapkido will want to go elsewhere.
> 
> Todd M. *



??


----------



## glad2bhere

Thanks, Todd. I think you put it very concisely. 

I think that folks who want to learn a group of S-D techniques would probably gravitate towards John with few questions asked.  The rate at which he shot up the ranks and attained his present standing can be debated for eternity. For people like me, watching someone represent what they do as a Hapkido art is about as pleasant as getting grit in my sandwich at the beach. There are just way too many people who want to be able to say they are part of a group without having to pay full price. 

BTW: I understand that GM Lim, Hyun Soo is coming to Chicago at the end of November. Are you going to be part of this? Kevin contacted me. If its true I am very surprised people have not been mentioning this more on the Nets. 

BTW#2: For those who don't know, GM Lim and John Pelligrini are the difference between day and night. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## progressivetactics

I met him at a "VOO" clinic a few years back, and was suprised by the lack of "master" characteristics he portrayed, and the amount of ego he exhibited.  I was suprised, and decided not to attend any of his semiars based on that.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear "prog": 

I know what you are talking about as I attended one of his seminars many years back and apparently he has not grown much since then. I figure its one of those things that people need to make up their own minds about. Its hard to characterize it accurately. Just seems to be better to let folks go and witness his demeanor first hand. On the flip side you can always tell someone who is the opposite because you leave the seminar going "I wanna be more like HIM!"  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by progressivetactics _
> *I met him at a "VOO" clinic a few years back, and was suprised by the lack of "master" characteristics he portrayed, and the amount of ego he exhibited.  I was suprised, and decided not to attend any of his semiars based on that. *



I didnt think that he had an ego.  I think that it was more of just being confident with his art.  What was he doing that gave you that impression?

Mike


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think that folks who want to learn a group of S-D techniques would probably gravitate towards John with few questions asked.  The rate at which he shot up the ranks and attained his present standing can be debated for eternity. For people like me, watching someone represent what they do as a Hapkido art is about as pleasant as getting grit in my sandwich at the beach. There are just way too many people who want to be able to say they are part of a group without having to pay full price.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, I'm not an expert on Hapkido, but didnt JP start off with traditional Hapkido and then modified it?  The second half of your statement is true.  We all take the arts for different reasons, and I realize that learning the forms, weapons, breathing, etc. is important.  How can someone say that they are doing Hapkido if they are not doing all of this?  IMO, I think what he did was take out some of the flashy things and gear it more towards combat.  Example:  Can a jump spinning kick be used in SD? Sure.  Is it practical? No.
> 
> Mike
Click to expand...


----------



## MartialArtsChic

I haven't met him yet, but I've known people who have gone to his seminars and I've heard nothing but good things not only about the seminars and such but about him as a person.

This art works very well for me and I'm completely enjoying myself and am more confident if I should ever have to use it.  But as time goes on, I will explore other arts and weapons and such so this is my base and beginning.



Lorrie


----------



## progressivetactics

i may have mistaken his deamenor, i just noticed he wanted to share his art, not what was being taught by Voo, often.  When we would do the training drills, he would walk through it 1 time, then stand around while everyone else seemed to be working.  Almost as if he didnt need to do it.  Could be my interpretation, but that is what i felt.  I could be wrong, and certainly don't want to trash talk anyones instructor.  I hope he does well for anyone who trains with him.


----------



## glad2bhere

Dear Mike: 

I don't know if this will help because often times these things can be pretty subjective but let me try. 

1.) One of the first things he said at the seminar I was at was "I don't teach Hapkido". He said it plain and said it a couple of times. The problem was that I then started to wonder what the validity was for what he was teaching and why he was using the term in his marketing if it wasn't what he was teaching. 

2.) He spent quite a bit of time with each technique letting us know why his approach was superior to other arts and approaches. I've been to a few seminars and given my share of seminars and I can tell you that this is, straight-away, a no-no. You can think it all you want, but you don't discount material that other people have learned regardless of what you think of your own material. My own approach in a seminar is "I do it like this and other people do it like this. Try them both and decide which works or feels better for you."  

3.) Not only myself but a few other folks began to ask him about common bonds among the material that bound his curriculum together. In response I heard a few times that based on his standing as the head of his art he could do pretty much as he pleases. This isn't half-wrong but it does not address the information people were looking for and frankly came across more as a dodge and indicative of maybe poor understanding of his art than anything else. He certainly made a point of letting everyone know that he was a person of standing in the KMA community instead of just letting his material speak for itself. FWIW.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MJS

> _Originally posted by glad2bhere _
> *Dear Mike:
> 
> I don't know if this will help because often times these things can be pretty subjective but let me try.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1.) One of the first things he said at the seminar I was at was "I don't teach Hapkido". He said it plain and said it a couple of times. The problem was that I then started to wonder what the validity was for what he was teaching and why he was using the term in his marketing if it wasn't what he was teaching.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Correct.  If you look at his web site, he talks abouit what his art is and is not.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 2.) He spent quite a bit of time with each technique letting us know why his approach was superior to other arts and approaches. I've been to a few seminars and given my share of seminars and I can tell you that this is, straight-away, a no-no. You can think it all you want, but you don't discount material that other people have learned regardless of what you think of your own material. My own approach in a seminar is "I do it like this and other people do it like this. Try them both and decide which works or feels better for you."
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Again, it was a long time since I went to that seminar, so if he said the same thing there, I really dont remember.  I agree with you though, and I have said the same thing many times, that there is something to learn from every art.  Chances are, that at a seminar, there is going to be so much stuff to learn, that the odds of you remembering everything are pretty slim.  By taking a few things that you like, working them, and adding them to your bag of tricks, look at how much better you'll become.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .) Not only myself but a few other folks began to ask him about common bonds among the material that bound his curriculum together. In response I heard a few times that based on his standing as the head of his art he could do pretty much as he pleases. This isn't half-wrong but it does not address the information people were looking for and frankly came across more as a dodge and indicative of maybe poor understanding of his art than anything else. He certainly made a point of letting everyone know that he was a person of standing in the KMA community instead of just letting his material speak for itself. FWIW.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> I would tend to think that if someone was the main guy, that yes, he pretty much could do what he wanted.  My main art is Kenpo.  If Ed Parker were still alive today, then I'm sure the same would apply to him also.  As for not addressing the info.  Again, I had no idea what this art was like or who JP even was until that day.  I did a little research prior to attending, so at least I would have some idea what to expect, but I would think that if someone that is from more of a trad. Hapkido background, that they would have an idea what he was like, and if they didnt like his stuff, they probably should not have gone to see him.
> 
> 
> Thank you for the reply.  As I said in the beginning, that seminar that I attended was the first of its kind.  I have no background in Hapkido at all.  I appreciate you taking the time to give feedback.
> 
> Mike*


----------



## Hapkidoman

Ego is the appropriate term, but then there is no lack of ego in the heads of Martial Arts Organizations, most of them either are or have become "Legends in their own Minds".


----------



## dortiz

You are answering a thread from 2003??


----------



## Hapkidoman

Still a valid point !!!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Hapkidoman said:


> Ego is the appropriate term, but then there is no lack of ego in the heads of Martial Arts Organizations, most of them either are or have become "Legends in their own Minds".


Never been to a CHKD seminar, but when I called DSI to ask about CHKD and left a message, GMP returned my call personally and spent darned near an hour on the phone with a guy whom he didn't know from Adam.

My sole conversation with the man left me with the impression of a pretty down to earth guy who was decidedly not egotistical.  

Daniel


----------



## KarateMomUSA

Hapkidoman said:


> Ego is the appropriate term, but then there is no lack of ego in the heads of Martial Arts Organizations, most of them either are or have become "Legends in their own Minds".


Leaders in any field have a strong ego. If not I doubt that they would have even been leaders


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

KarateMomUSA said:


> Leaders in any field have a strong ego. If not I doubt that they would have even been leaders



Also, there is a difference between having a strong ego and being egotistical.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Never been to a CHKD seminar, but when I called DSI to ask about CHKD and left a message, GMP returned my call personally and spent darned near an hour on the phone with a guy whom he didn't know from Adam.
> 
> My sole conversation with the man left me with the impression of a pretty down to earth guy who was decidedly not egotistical.
> 
> Daniel



The details of that call may be found here: http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=87066&page=4


----------



## Kong Soo Do

This is a rather old thread, but some of the comments jumped out at me for response;



MJS said:


> Like I said, I'm not an expert on Hapkido, but didnt JP start off with traditional Hapkido and then modified it?



Many people question GMP for a variety of reasons.  They don't like his rank.  They don't like the time in which he progressed in rank.  They don't like his system.  Yada yada.  I did a bit of research based upon a thread on my own board.  Apparently, GM Myung, Kwang Sik (WHF) promoted GMP up to 6th Dan.  And I believe the numerical progression exists.  Most in Hapkido know the contribution and level of experience of GM Myung.  So we have a choice to make;  either GMP was sufficiently skilled in traditional Hapkido to earn in numerical progression up to 6th Dan in Hapkido from GM Myung or GM Myung and the WHF is a rank mill selling rank to anyone with enough cash.  Take your pick.  Then Seo, In Sun of the World Kido Federation granted him GM status in Hapkido.  So again, the same question can be applied as I stated above.  

Has GMP developed something that people want?  Yes.

Has GMP developed an art that looks like it is standing the test of time?  Yes.

Does GMP have students who find value in what he offers?  Yes.

What else is needed then?


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Apparently, GM Myung, Kwang Sik (WHF) promoted GMP up to 6th Dan.




That is incorrect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> That is incorrect.



Perhaps, but not according to the information that I have, from right here on MT.  I have, however, sent an email requesting confirmation and/or additional information.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps, but not according to the information that I have, from right here on MT.


  This is the first time that I have heard this.  Please link the thread, as there are probably over a hundred GMP/CHKD threads on this board.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I have, however, sent an email requesting confirmation and/or additional information.


The only rank that I am specifically aware of is a gudan from Sun Seo.  I know that he trained under GM Wolmerhauser, though I am not aware of any rank.  Who ranked whom is ultimately unimportant at this point; the man runs his own organization and has created his own art.  He can rank himself 30th dan if he so chooses.  Either you (the general you, not you specifically) like what he's put together or you do not.

If a person doesn't like his system, then fine, but if that person is going to argue that the system is flawed on this board, then I request that they actually address what it is about CHKD as a system that they don't like.  My biggest beef with CHKD detractors is that they most often have little to no familiarity with the system.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> This is the first time that I have heard this.  Please link the thread, as there are probably over a hundred GMP/CHKD threads on this board.



Hi Daniel.  Here is the link http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?12605-GM-Pellegrini-in-Black-Belt!  Post #13 by Iron Ox.  He doesn't appear to be a big fan of GMP.  I sent him an email.  He hasn't been active on the board since last year however.  If I get a reply I'll be happy to comment on it.



> Who ranked whom is ultimately unimportant at this point; the man runs  his own organization and has created his own art.  He can rank himself  30th dan if he so chooses.  Either you (the general you, not you  specifically) like what he's put together or you do not.
> 
> If a person doesn't like his system, then fine, but if that person is  going to argue that the system is flawed on this board, then I request  that they actually address what it is about CHKD as a system that they  don't like.  My biggest beef with CHKD detractors is that they most  often have little to no familiarity with the system.



I agree with you completely.  It is his art and his org so he can pretty much do as he pleases with it.  As I mentioned earlier;



			
				Kong Soo Do said:
			
		

> Has GMP developed something that people want?  Yes.
> 
> Has GMP developed an art that looks like it is standing the test of time?  Yes.
> 
> Does GMP have students who find value in what he offers?  Yes.
> 
> What else is needed then


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The only rank that I am specifically aware of is a gudan from Sun Seo.  I know that he trained under GM Wolmerhauser, though I am not aware of any rank.  Who ranked whom is ultimately unimportant at this point




The World Hapkido Federation used to publish dan promotions in their newsletters, newsletters which I still have. I also remember seeing announcements of GM Pellegrini's promotions in Taekwondo Times. I can look it up if I really wanted to, but after reading your post, I am not motivated enough to go digging through bankers boxes. Like you said, who cares.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> The World Hapkido Federation used to publish dan promotions in their newsletters, newsletters which I still have. I also remember seeing announcements of GM Pellegrini's promotions in Taekwondo Times. I can look it up if I really wanted to, but after reading your post, I am not motivated enough to go digging through bankers boxes. Like you said, who cares.


Well, I can name a good ten people on MT who care, but that wasn't my point.  The man is the GM of a system that he has been developing for roughly a decade and a half.  Whatever his lineage was prior to establishing CHKD, he has over fifteen years in as current GM of his system. He has is followers who are happy with what he is doing, and it is unlikely that they will get together and impeach him due to some deficiency in his promotion history.  He's GM of CHKD for the rest of his life, so debunking his promotions prior to that serves only as a means to support negative criticism of his system and to take a jab at him personally.

I am personally not concerned about his rank; I do not train in his system and am not on the fence about doing so.  Personally, I find the biggest obstacle to CHKD in the minds of many of his detractors is the delivery method, i.e. distance learning.  Regardless of the legitimacy (or lack there of) of his rank, the video learning still rankles all of the same people, as does the slick marketing.  Then there's the 'it isn't really hapkido' line of reasoning.  Again, not having trained in his system, I have no comment regarding this.

There are MT members who train in his system and love it, most of whom are not novices in the arts.  There are MT members who are definitely detractors, and who are not novices in the arts, but who do not train in his system.  I am generally inclined to take the opinion of those with firsthand experience over those who have none.  I see the former as being actually educated in the subject and the latter as essentially doing movie reviews after watching only the trailers.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, I can name a good ten people on MT who care, but that wasn't my point.



Well, that's their problem. Let's not make it ours by getting sucked into the drama of it all.  





Daniel Sullivan said:


> The man is the GM of a system that he has been developing for roughly a decade and a half. Whatever his lineage was prior to establishing CHKD, he has over fifteen years in as current GM of his system.



I want to say that it's been twenty years now. 92 sticks in my head for some reason. For some reason I associate Combat Hapkido with the Barcelona Olympics. 





Daniel Sullivan said:


> He's GM of CHKD for the rest of his life, so debunking his promotions prior to that serves only as a means to support negative criticism of his system and to take a jab at him personally.



Or to take a jab at the senior who promoted him....  The person who promoted GM Pelligrini to Hapkido 1st Dan used to stay at my house when he visited Hawaii. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am generally inclined to take the opinion of those with firsthand experience over those who have none.  I see the former as being actually educated in the subject and the latter as essentially doing movie reviews after watching only the trailers.



First hand experience is always preferred to "research" conducted via google.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Or to take a jab at the senior who promoted him....




I looked back at the thread.  I don't see anyone taking a jab at any Hapkido seniors???  




			
				puunui said:
			
		

> First hand experience is always preferred to "research" conducted via google.



I absolutely agree 100%.  I would add that it is preferred to getting one's information from banned trolls on internet boards as well.  Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to take a long look back through the WHF's promotion lists.  Another good example of first hand experience;



			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> There are MT members who train in his system and love it, most of whom are not novices in the arts.



Actually being in on at least several classes would give a much better perspective than simply discussing it on the net.  Talking in earnest with the instructors and studenst of the system to form an educated opinion.  It is easy to form a preconceived idea without actually knowing the person(s) and what their teaching has produced.

Good insight from both of you, thank you.


----------



## miguksaram

puunui said:


> First hand experience is always preferred to "research" conducted via google.


Wait...are you saying information on the internet is not always correct...well crap there goes my whole Taekwondo history book I wrote.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I looked back at the thread.  I don't see anyone taking a jab at any Hapkido seniors???



If you say so. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I would add that it is preferred to getting one's information from banned trolls on internet boards as well.



Who is the banned troll on internet boards that you are referring to? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps it would be worthwhile for you to take a long look back through the WHF's promotion lists.  Another good example of first hand experience;



Why would it be worthwhile for me to do that? Whose name would I see, yours?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

miguksaram said:


> Wait...are you saying information on the internet is not always correct...well crap there goes my whole Taekwondo history book I wrote.



I'm sure you'll do fine Jeremy.  I would image you have quite an extensive library


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm sure you'll do fine Jeremy.  I would image you have quite an extensive library




A library is a start. More importantly, miguksaram has a korean wife, so he understands korean culture. He has also built relationships with seniors who can tell him exactly what happened.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> A library is a start. More importantly, miguksaram has a korean wife, so he understands korean culture. He has also built relationships with seniors who can tell him exactly what happened.



Very true Glenn.  As long as the information source is unbiased and provides factual data, one can find many different ways to research something of interest.  We always need to keep an eye on separating fact from fiction or allowing personal prejudice to interfere with making an informed decision.  

Good points, thank you.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> VAs long as the information source is unbiased and provides factual data, one can find *many different ways* to research something of interest.  We always need to keep an eye on separating fact from fiction or allowing personal prejudice to interfere with making an informed decision.




When it comes to korean martial arts historical research, I don't believe that there are many different ways, at least not many different ways to get to what actually happened. I think that the best way, or the way that has produced the best results for me, has been to seek out those who were actually there, and then get them to tell you directly what happened. Once you are at that point, there is no "making of an informed decision" and there really is no decision to make, because the facts and the truth speak so loudly and fit so perfectly that it literally drowns out all of the other "sources". And at least with respect to kukki taekwondo, all of the pioneers basically state the same thing, from a slightly different perspective. I would invite you to try and contact one of the pioneers and see for yourself. Then you might have a change of heart about "many different ways". You can start with your Kwan Jang, GM LEE Kyo Yoon, who is still alive and quite accessible, IF you approach him in the correct way.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

I think that is great Glenn, and I'm glad that you have found sources in which you feel comfortable in placing your confidence.  As I stated earlier, as long as the source(s) are unbiased and factual then you're all set.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think that is great Glenn, and I'm glad that you have found sources in which you feel comfortable in placing your confidence.  As I stated earlier, as long as the source(s) are unbiased and factual then you're all set.




Other than Dakin Burdick, what sources do you rely on when conducting historical research? And how do you determine whether the source in which you feel comfortable with/rely upon/place your confidence in is unbiased and factual?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I looked back at the thread.  I don't see anyone taking a jab at any Hapkido seniors???


This thread is but a drop in the bucket with regards to GMP/CHKD threads on this board alone.  Take into account threads on other boards, and you are looking at thousands of threads about GMP and CHKD.  The thread that you linked is fairly typical of many such threads with regards to the nature of the criticisms.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> When it comes to korean martial arts historical research, I don't believe that there are many different ways, at least not many different ways to get to what actually happened. I think that the best way, or the way that has produced the best results for me, has been to seek out those who were actually there, and then get them to tell you directly what happened. Once you are at that point, there is no "making of an informed decision" and there really is no decision to make, because the facts and the truth speak so loudly and fit so perfectly that it literally drowns out all of the other "sources". And at least with respect to kukki taekwondo, all of the pioneers basically state the same thing, from a slightly different perspective. I would invite you to try and contact one of the pioneers and see for yourself. Then you might have a change of heart about "many different ways". You can start with your Kwan Jang, GM LEE Kyo Yoon, who is still alive and quite accessible, IF you approach him in the correct way.



But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth. Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them.  So when presented with the truth, and how to get to the truth, it sounds a lot like hell to them, so instead they search out many different ways, or versions to support there BS.  Of course, I don't think that anyone here would do that, but these folks do exist. 

"I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."   Harry S. Truman


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth. Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them.  So when presented with the truth, and how to get to the truth, it sounds a lot like hell to them, so instead they search out many different ways, or versions to support there BS.  Of course, I don't think that anyone here would do that, but these folks do exist.
> 
> "I never gave anybody hell! I just told the truth and they thought it was hell."   Harry S. Truman




A lot of our stuff has been out there for a while now, and it has come to be "generally accepted". But I can remember early on a lot of people were really upset with the seemingly endless facts that we were putting out there, information that we got directly from the pioneers. Those people were really mad, especially the followers of General Choi. And some of them are still mad, licking the wounds which never seem to heal, while they plot their revenge. 

Having said that, I would say the vast majority are grateful for the information that we put out there, because it gives them a new perspective on their much beloved martial art, a perspective that refreshes and rejuvenates their desire to continue on their journey. I can't tell you how many people have wrote to me or come up to me to thank me for what we do. They are tired of the bashers who constantly attack and criticize taekwondo. They want to feel good about themselves, their art and their training, and they also want to continue to the upper levels of the path. The biggest fans seem to be, oddly enough, the korean seniors, who always knew that taekwondo was special, but did not have the english words to explain it to their students. The look of respect, admiration and gratitude in their eyes when I see them in person makes all of the BS we have to put up with to get the message out worthwhile. 

And the thing that people do not understand is that when it comes down to it, you and I are nothing special. We weren't world champions, nor did we even strive for such things. I know that when I first joined whatever school I joined as a white belt, I was like every other new student, at the bottom of the totem pole, trying to figure it out. Everyone ahead of me was better and more senior, and it seemed like an impossible task to even get close to their skill and knowledge level. If someone had a crystal ball and told me back when I was a white belt that I would be doing the things that I have done, am doing, or will do, I would have told them they were crazy. 

Most of those seniors have long since stopped practicing. But we are still here, trying new things, exploring areas previously unknown to us, while attempting to share a small piece of what we have discovered. I've come to accept the fact that no matter what we do, there will always be a small percentage of people who won't like it or us, because we make them feel bad, or small, or stupid, or lazy or whatever else. But I would think that they would feel good, because frankly, if the two of us can get there, then everyone can, including them. We're both nothing special, and if they passed us on the street, they wouldn't even look twice at us.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> But some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth.



What truth are you refering to?  If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students.  If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored?  Looking the other way isn't 'truth'.  One of Glenn's instructors sold rank.  My instructor had an instructor who sold rank.  Is not this also 'truth'.  A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior.  I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth".  They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.



			
				master cole said:
			
		

> Some people want others to buy into their BS and they will spend many hours, days and years trying to get out their BS message, heck these days they will even put up websites and have their buddies promote them.



So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training?  If so, can you demonstrate your proof?  And why would you call GMP's offering BS?  As has been demonstrated, his art is established, is standing the test of time and has many students who find value as Daniel Sullivan has stated.


----------



## iron_ox

Pellegrini again?  Really?

What does anyone want to know that I might be able to say I didn't already?

I talked to many of the sources - GM Wollmershauser - face to face, during his last seminar, at my dojang.  He confirmed the rank issue.  First Dan, provisional, honorary second dan, then the move to Myung Kwang Sik.  What I said about Pellegrini not being physically able to do technical material is borne out from them and a host of others that have actually trained with him.

Then the jump from Myung to Seo...all of this in a span of about 10 years.  Sure, he has had time to refine the banter in 15 years, but the fact he was given the platform in the first place is scary.

I really have no interest in training in his "art" - as I have said before, I don't believe his training and rank rise to the occasion of Hapkido.  If he would call it Pellegrini-do, I would not even comment about him at all - but using the name Hapkido to me is just inappropriate.

I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank, well that's my belief.

My issue is that the material he teaches is neither battle or time tested - I'm glad that people like his approach to whatever it is he does, but his watered down approach to Hapkido has now spawned breakaways who have even less knowledge  and now call themselves Grandmaster of their own self styles "Hapkido"...

Without getting into a flame fest, I am happy to answer what I know...and while I do add Google to my search criteria, I have personally met and talked to people about issues with Hapkido - been doing that for 30 years or so.

As for the ego thing...I will add this, I have had very limited dealings with him back in the very very early days of his rise to "fame" - in 1993 - and to say he was cocky and rude would be an understatement.  Maybe he's mellowed.  At a seminar a few years ago, he used a man who is now a student of mine for a demonstration.  He said to him "I am a Grandmaster, I will not hurt you so you don't need to be afraid."  My student said after that there was no real way to take the man seriously.  Yeah that's hearsay, but funny.

Lineage to me is the same in martial arts as it is in medicine, I would be reticent to visit a "doctor" with a diploma from inside a crackerjacks box, I would want the real training if he called himself an MD, I wish people looked at martial arts lineage the same way - its not just political fodder - it is a first way of demonstrating that someone has a level of knowledge - and sure rank gets sold, but we all need to be vigilant and ensure that a certain standard can be maintained.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank, well that's my belief.




I believe Kong Soo Do contacted you to verify whether GM Pelligrini was promoted to 6th Dan by the WHF. I notice there was no response to that. 

Just curious, but do you think GM CHOI Yong Sul "sold" rank as well? Also, how much does GM Lim charge you for promotions? How do you feel about learning Hapkido mainly in a seminar setting? Do you believe that is the way to go?


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> One of Glenn's instructors sold rank.



That's your interpretation.  




Kong Soo Do said:


> My instructor had an instructor who sold rank.



When you have a chance, you really should attempt to build a relationship with your instructor's instructor or for that matter some of your instructor's seniors from that dojang. You might learn some interesting things about your instructor that way. At the very least, you will get to hear both sides of the hearsay story you are retelling. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> Is not this also 'truth'.



Actually, no it is not. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training?




We heard IronOx's reason why GM Wollmershauser (who in my opinion had some of the best hand techniques I have ever felt) promoted GM Pelligrini. Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons. Here is a quote from Ninjitsu grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei: "I feel that the title of soke, or 'grandmaster' as you usually translate it, was in fact given to me way before my technique had matured. In a similar manner, I sometime do the same thing to my students. Even though a person may not be qualified for a given rank technically, I give them the rank in order to pressure them into growing stronger in the future."


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> That's your interpretation.



What other interpretion is there Glenn?  You're simply covering up and/or trying to ignore dishonorable practices from your 'seniors'.  I had relayed the story of a Korean GM selling rank (jumping another Korean from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) for money.  You stated that your instructor had done the same thing.  Promotions based on skill with no regard to a person's ethnic background, religion, gender or social standing is honorable.  Promotions based on receiving money under the table from a 'home boy' is dishonorable.  What is there to interprete?

Promotion based upon skill & experience = good
Promotion based on a monetary kick back under the table and/or for a slice of the pie when the new 'master' opens a school = bad



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> When you have a chance, you really should attempt to build a relationship with your instructor's instructor or for that matter some of your instructor's seniors from that dojang.



No thanks, I'll take a pass.  Not interested in learning how to cheat people or do good ole boy promotions for cash.



> Actually, no it is not.



Actually, yeah, it kinda is.  



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons.



Well, can't argue with you on this one;



			
				iron ox said:
			
		

> I will say he was ranked by GM Wollmershauser out of kindness, and Myung and Seo - well, as often as I have documented them both selling rank


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're simply covering up and/or trying to ignore dishonorable practices from your 'seniors'.



I'm not covering up anything. You can talk about it all you want. In fact, I invite you to do so every chance you get. I would think though that if you have a problem with him, then you would speak to him directly about it, instead of speaking about him behind his back, something which you criticized when you felt someone else was doing it. 

PS: Remember your question about taking shots at seniors? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> I had relayed the story of a Korean GM selling rank (jumping another Korean from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) for money.  You stated that your instructor had done the same thing.  Promotions based on skill with no regard to a person's ethnic background, religion, gender or social standing is honorable.  Promotions based on receiving money under the table from a 'home boy' is dishonorable.  What is there to interprete?



Again, you should go call him up and give him a piece of your mind. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Promotion based upon skill & experience = good
> Promotion based on a monetary kick back under the table and/or for a slice of the pie when the new 'master' opens a school = bad



How about promoting "students" so they in turn can promote you. Is that good or bad? 





Kong Soo Do said:


> No thanks, I'll take a pass.  Not interested in learning how to cheat people or do good ole boy promotions for cash.



Thank you for sharing how you feel about your instructor's instructor, who you use as the basis of your organization's Han Moo Kwan history and development, so much so that you use his name on your page. 

One last question about good ole boy promotions -- if it is for free, or if you donate the proceeds of that promotion to charity, does that make it ok?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I'm not covering up anything.



Then we'll have to agree to disagree. I can only evaluate based upon the statements that you make.



> How about promoting "students" so they in turn can promote you. Is that good or bad?



Got any examples? Specific examples that you have first-hand knowledge about? I'd really like to see you go down this road Glenn, I really would.



> One last question about good ole boy promotions -- if it is for free, or if you donate the proceeds of that promotion to charity, does that make it ok?



Got any examples? Again, any specific examples you have first-hand knowledge about? Names, dates of promotions, relationships, training history or lack thereof? And again, I'd really like to see you go down this road. 

And here is a question for you Glenn; is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?

Note to the mods; this discussion is direct on all fronts but is also maintaining a respectful tone towards each other. At least that is my perception of the comments and how my comments are intended to be taken.  Although the thread is drifting somewhat from the OP, it is an old thead and I don't think the OP would mind.  Please allow it to run its course. Thank you.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Got any examples?



Just asking in general. Why, do you know someone that does that? If so, what are your thoughts on it?




Kong Soo Do said:


> And here is a question for you Glenn;  is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?



I have never done that, but if I had heard that my instructor or senior did so, I would at the very least attempt to find out from the senior or my teacher directly what actually happened and why.

But as I get older, I care less and less about such things. From my experience, the seniors really don't look at or ask about one's piece of paper like how lower ranked students tend to. They are not overly concerned about such things. Rather they evaluate people using noonchi and other methods. To tell you the truth, I have no idea what rank most of my seniors are. I just know they are my seniors, in every sense of the concept, and I act accordingly. Plus I am focused on other things, which makes that sort of stuff even more irrelevant to where I am right now.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I have never done that, but if I had heard that my instructor or senior did so, I would at the very least attempt to find out from the senior or my teacher directly what actually happened and why.



And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Here is a question to any who would like to answer:

What are you thoughts regarding people starting new organizations and assigning themselves the rank appropriate to an organizational head?

Or do you feel that they must receive said rank from someone else?

Thank you


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?



I would assume they had a very good reason for doing what they did. I certainly wouldn't disrespect them in public about it. I might start questioning the junior who received the rank, if they began to act in an inappropriate fashion towards me or any other senior. The point is that I choose not to disrespect my seniors or teachers in a public fashion and conversely you think it is ok without even attempting to find out if there is another side to the story. That is pretty much it, in a nutshell. To me, having ill thoughts about one's teachers or seniors is like having ill thoughts about your parents or siblings. Would you post on the internet all the bad things your father said your grandfather did? Not me. I never speak ill about my parents or grandparents, ever.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here is a question to any who would like to answer:
> 
> What are you thoughts regarding people starting new organizations and assigning themselves the rank appropriate to an organizational head?
> 
> Or do you feel that they must receive said rank from someone else?
> 
> Thank you



Daniel, that is an excellent question.  Here's my take;

There are no universal guidelines on promotions for arts that use the Dan/Kyu/Gup system.  In some arts, an individual can earn a BB in one year.  In other arts it may take 10 years.  In one art there are only two belts (white & black).  In others there are 15 the color of the rainbow with stripes in-between.   Who is right?  Who is wrong?  And on what basis do you judge?
There are no universal guidelines on promotion to BB. In some arts it is the instructor that grades you alone.  In other arts it is an organization that grades you.  In others, both the instructor and the organization work together.  Who is right?  Who is wrong?  And on what basis do you judge?
Who gave the founders of their various arts rank?  Did they all receive it the same way?  Did some receive it differently?
If someone with training starts their own organization/art then they would be default be the head of that organization/art.  If they want to assume the highest rank in that organization/art is it right?  Is it wrong?  And on what basis do you judge?
If someone with training starts their own organization/art and keeps their current original rank, who then promotes them if/when it becomes necessary?  Do they promote themselves?  Is it right?  Is it wrong?  And on what basis do you judge?  If they receive promotion by review of their peers is it right?  Is it wrong?  And on what basis do you judge?
Bottom line is that there exists no universal standard by which all arts 'must' comply.  One can look down on what an individual/organization has done, but they need to follow it up with a rational justification and not 'just cause'.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

> Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do*
> 
> And what would you do if you found out that it was indeed a backroom promotion for cold hard cash rather than being based on skill, experience, TIG etc?





puunui said:


> I would assume they had a very good reason for doing what they did.



And what _'very good reason' _would they have other than being greedy and unethical?


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> And what _'very good reason' _would they have other than being greedy and unethical?




See my Hatsumi Sensei quote. I notice that you are good at asking questions, at least of me, but poor at answering questions, at least mine.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> See my Hatsumi Sensei quote.



Which specifically has nothing to do with the question.  No problem, I think that I've found out what I suspected.  

As always, nice talking with you.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Which specifically has nothing to do with the question.



If you say so. Keep on disrespecting your seniors and your teacher's teacher and I will continue to respect and honor mine. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> No problem, I think that I've found out what I suspected.



What I wrote is nothing that I haven't already said before on MT. The bottom line is that it is a difference in values. I would never do the things that you do, and you are unable or unwilling to do the things that I do, which is why we are where we each are. And as long as your are happy with your choices, then it's all good. I know I am happy with my choices.


----------



## mastercole

Kong Soo Do said:


> What truth are you refering to?  If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students.  If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored?  Looking the other way isn't 'truth'.  One of Glenn's instructors sold rank.  My instructor had an instructor who sold rank.  Is not this also 'truth'.  A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior.  I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth".  They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.
> 
> 
> 
> So are you claiming that GMP was promoted by GM Myung, Kwang Sik , GM Mike Wollmershauser and GM Seo, In Sun on the basis of friendship and not training?  If so, can you demonstrate your proof?  And why would you call GMP's offering BS?  As has been demonstrated, his art is established, is standing the test of time and has many students who find value as Daniel Sullivan has stated.



I don't know who or what a GMP is.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Keep on disrespecting your seniors and your teacher's teacher and I will continue to respect and honor mine.



You're confusing the issue Glenn, it isn't disrespectful to point out when a senior's actions were motivated by money rather than the betterment of the art.  It isnt' disrespectful to take a stand for what you feel is right.  



> The bottom line is that it is a difference in values.



Yes, it cleary is a difference of values.



> I would never do the things that you do, and you are unable or unwilling to do the things that I do, which is why we are where we each are.



Yes, you've made that very clear.  I am most definately unable and unwilling to stand by while watching unethical behavior motivated by greed.  



> I know I am happy with my choices



I know that I am also very happy with my choices.

Peace.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> I don't know who or what a GMP is.



My apologies, I thought you were following the thread.  GMP has been used multiple times in this thread as an abbreviation for GM Pellegrini.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're confusing the issue Glenn, it isn't disrespectful to point out when a senior's actions were motivated by money rather than the betterment of the art.  It isnt' disrespectful to take a stand for what you feel is right.



I'm not confusing anything. How about your grandfather? Has your father told you anything that he did that you need to take a stand against? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Yes, you've made that very clear.  I am most definately unable and unwilling to stand by while watching unethical behavior motivated by greed.



But you don't really know that, because you never took the time to hear both sides of the story. But it's ok, because apparently while you are unable and unwilling to stand by your instructor's instructor, GM LEE Kyo Yoon is able and willing to. I say that because last year he promoted your instructor's instructor to Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan, the first one GM Lee promoted. And apparently he stands by me as well because he sent me a christmas card. Did you get yours? I first met GM Lee ten years ago at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea. We exchanged cards and he sent me an autographed copy of his book, for free, without me asking. I wonder if I would enjoy the same sort of relationship with GM Lee if I did the things that you do towards his first Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan. 

Al has an even closer relationship with GM Lee and has actually been to GM Lee's house, and also assisted in the english version of GM Lee's latest book. Master Cole even wrote a letter that is included in the book. So GM Lee stands by him as well. 

You rant and rave about all the bad things that your instructor's instructor has done, and yet you include him in your webpage. And here you are, arguing with two people who have better relationships with the founder of your kwan as well as your instructor's instructor, and your instructor's seniors, when we aren't even Han Moo Kwan members. Can you get more ironic than that?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

You're confused Glenn. We were discussion your instructor either real or hypothetical, whichever is appropriate.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> You're confused Glenn.



Am I?




Kong Soo Do said:


> We were discussion your instructor either real or hypothetical, whichever is appropriate.



Were we?




Kong Soo Do said:


> What truth are you refering to?  If a martial art pioneer or senior did something particuarly noteworthy then it should be held up as an example for future students.  If, however, a martial art pioneer or senior is shady, unethical, bias or promotes discriminatory practices then that should not be swept under the carpet and ignored?  Looking the other way isn't 'truth'.  . . . *My instructor had an instructor who sold rank.*  Is not this also 'truth'.  A senior should not be held to some arbitrary, artificial standard simply becuase they are a senior.  I agree with you completely..."some people don't want to expose their followers, or potential followers to the truth".  They would rather white wash bad behavior and ignore it.





Kong Soo Do said:


> And here is a question for you Glenn; is selling rank (for example going from blue belt to 4th degree black belt in 6 months) to someone based upon their ethnic background being the same as yours for money a good thing or a bad thing?



I guess you didn't get a christmas card from GM Lee this year. You don't have to answer that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> Were we?



Oh Glenn, now you're really showing your confusion.  Here, let me help you out.  Take a look at your previous post.  The third time you quoted me was a conversation I was having with Al back on page 3 or 4 of this thread.  It wasn't addressed towards you at all.  The last time you quoted me was a question I posted directly to you.  See...I even have your name in the quote.  And you responded the very next post with;



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> I have never done that, but if *I had heard that my instructor or senior  did so*....



So it appears, at least on page 4 that you knew we were talking about your instructor (real or hypothetical).  So either your REALLY confused...or your deliberately taking my question to another member and trying to put them with my question to you as some sort of diversion.  I'm sure you would never do that though.  So I'll just have to assume that you got yourself confused.  Which makes all of your comments about Christmas cards and signed books moot.  Or were you just looking for an opportunity to make yourself look important by dropping names of people you claim to know?  Nope, I can't believe you would stoop to that either which takes us back to you just being confused.  And that's okay, it's been a long day for me as well.

So just to sum it up, if you found out your instructor was selling rank based upon ethnic background, religion or gender for quick cash, rather than for skill, experience, training and TIG...you're fine with that.  Providing it is a Korean senior?  Whereas on the other hand, I have an issue with it.  I think that sums it up in a nutshell.

Always a pleasure Glenn.  We may not agree but it is always entertaining. 

And thank you mods for allow Glenn and I to hash this out between us in this thread.  I think it's been productive, educational and enlightening.  And though we have been direct, I think it has also remained polite.  And thank you Glenn for that and your participation.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

So, about that John Pellegrini guy....


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> So it appears, at least on page 4 that you knew we were talking about your instructor (real or hypothetical).



Yes, and we were also talking about your instructor's instructor as well. Remember? 




Kong Soo Do said:


> So either your REALLY confused...



No one has ever accused me of being "confused" before, but I guess there is always a first time. 




Kong Soo Do said:


> or your deliberately taking my question to another member and trying to put them with my question to you as some sort of diversion.  I'm sure you would never do that though.  So I'll just have to assume that you got yourself confused.  Which makes all of your comments about Christmas cards and signed books moot.  Or were you just looking for an opportunity to make yourself look important by dropping names of people you claim to know?  Nope, I can't believe you would stoop to that either which takes us back to you just being confused.  And that's okay, it's been a long day for me as well.



No actually, I was making a point, which is that you rant and rave about your instructor's instructor, as well as other seniors, but you do not enjoy the type of relationships with seniors that others who do not act the way that you do have. So there is a heavy price that is paid by your type of attitude and behavior, which I am unwilling and unable to pay. I rather have the relationship and assume the best, rather than throw that relationship away and get disconnected from my family.  




Kong Soo Do said:


> So just to sum it up, if you found out your instructor was selling rank based upon ethnic background, religion or gender for quick cash, rather than for skill, experience, training and TIG...you're fine with that.  Providing it is a Korean senior?  Whereas on the other hand, I have an issue with it.  I think that sums it up in a nutshell.



Not quite. I would assume that my instructor has a good reason for doing what he is doing, that hopefully in the future I will understand why he did what he did, and won't go publicly disrespecting him about it. When I was a teenager, I felt like my parents did this or that wrong. I didn't say anything publicly to people, only later to realize that my father or parents or grandparents had good reasons for doing what they did. Only later did I understand. Same thing with martial arts students. There comes a point where low ranked black belts think that they know more and can do better than their teachers. Then they strike out on their own and come to understand why their teachers did certain things. 

As for seniors, to me race does not matter. I have many non-korean seniors who I look up to and learn from and listen to, famous names, in certain circles. They know who they are and I always publicly recognize them when possible. And the comment that comes from all their mouths is "It is good to be glenn's senior" or "glenn is a great junior". And, I am a great senior as well, sharing freely with my juniors without reservation or hesitation. However, if someone is a bad junior, then they get treated or ignored accordingly. 

There are many things happening and will happen in the next eighteen months in taekwondo, things which my seniors have asked me to be involved in, things which will greatly affect taekwondo both nationally and internationally. Some of it is good I believe, and other stuff will be not so good, which we need to hopefully prevent. Al will also be a part of this. In fact, he and I play a very key role on one particularly important aspect of the future, which is good because even though we have diverse backgrounds, and different points of view, we work well together. 

One of the important things that needs to be reestablished is the respect that is inherent in taekwondo, and all martial arts really. Ten years ago, some negative people accused our seniors of all kinds of false things, which tore down the USTU, and also the WTF. Then the negative people had a free hand in running things, and they ended up running it into the ground. Now people realize that it was wrong to do what was done, that we don't need that type of teenage adolescent rebellion in taekwondo. Disrespecting seniors was wrong, everyone knows that, but they do not know what to do to make things right. 

This discussion between you and I, was from my point of view, for them. They needed to see the difference in values of the immediate past vs. the future. The immediate past was all about disrespecting our seniors, our teachers and our leaders, erasing what they accomplished, and in doing so, bring our national organization onto the brink of bankruptcy and killing all hopes of a viable future for anyone. The future will be about the reasons why we all signed up for taekwondo lessons in the first place, the friendships, the learning, the values, the respect, the sense of family and belonging that permeates all good schools.We had that in the USTU, but didn't know until it was taken away from us, and we need to bring that back. 

If people are not interested in that, and instead feel like living in the past, continuing the hate parade, then they should not join. But if they want something different, if they want to be a part of something meaningful again nationally, then they should get ready, because it's coming. 

I realize that you are not interested in any of this, and that is ok, because there are a whole lot of other people who are interested and they have been waiting patiently for a long time. Well, the time is soon upon us. Real soon. Stay tuned. We are right at the edge. 2012 and 2013 promise to be a wild ride. 

Back on topic: Disrespecting GM Pelligrini or other seniors? That seems so.... ten years ago.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> but you do not enjoy the type of relationships with seniors



Actually, I do have tremendous relationships with people that have been in the arts longer than me, as well as those that have been in the arts shorter than me.  Both in and out of my direct lineage.  But thank you for your concern.  Cheers 



			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> So, about that John Pellegrini guy....



Quite right Daniel.  I appreciate the time that Glenn and I have had and appreciate those allowing us to indulge a bit.  But yes, it is time to get back on track and I see Glenn agrees.  So back to the topic.  I've already stated my feelings so I'll leave it to others to express their own thoughts on the topic if they wish.

I've been up since O'dark hundred so I'm heading to bed.


----------



## MJS

Wow...this thread is one of those oldies but goodies....seeing that its like 9yrs old.  Anyways....I didn't start it with any ill intent, ie: to bash anyone or any art, but instead to talk in somewhat of a civil fashion.  As I said, I'm not a student of GM P, but I did, quite a few years ago, attend a seminar, and enjoyed it very much.  

IMO, it seems like he hasn't done anything different than alot of other people have done, from other arts, ie: Kenpo, Jeff Speakman and his 5.0 Kenpo.  Jeff has made quite a few changes to the way he does his Kenpo, but its still Kenpo.  

So, what is it exactly that rubs people the wrong way?  His lack of time in traditional Hapkido?  Him removing certain things that're found in traditional Hapkido?


----------



## mastercole

Kong Soo Do said:


> Oh Glenn, now you're really showing your confusion.  Here, let me help you out.  Take a look at your previous post.  The third time you quoted me was a conversation I was having with Al back on page 3 or 4 of this thread.



I'm sorry Mr. Schultz, but we were not having a conversation.


----------



## mastercole

puunui said:


> But you don't really know that, because you never took the time to hear both sides of the story. But it's ok, because apparently while you are unable and unwilling to stand by your instructor's instructor, GM LEE Kyo Yoon is able and willing to. I say that because last year he promoted your instructor's instructor to Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan, the first one GM Lee promoted. And apparently he stands by me as well because he sent me a christmas card. Did you get yours? I first met GM Lee ten years ago at the Kukkiwon Instructor Course in Korea. We exchanged cards and he sent me an autographed copy of his book, for free, without me asking. I wonder if I would enjoy the same sort of relationship with GM Lee if I did the things that you do towards his first Han Moo Kwan 10th Dan.
> 
> Al has an even closer relationship with GM Lee and has actually been to GM Lee's house, and also assisted in the english version of GM Lee's latest book. Master Cole even wrote a letter that is included in the book. So GM Lee stands by him as well.
> 
> You rant and rave about all the bad things that your instructor's instructor has done, and yet you include him in your webpage. And here you are, arguing with two people who have better relationships with the founder of your kwan as well as your instructor's instructor, and your instructor's seniors, when we aren't even Han Moo Kwan members. Can you get more ironic than that?



GM Kyo Yoon Lee, the founder of Han Moo Kwan told me, in his living room, that some of the relationships between juniors and seniors had been broken. He said the formation of Kukkiwon was his task and dream. When they completed Kukkiwon, he said they waited for the lights to come on but it took some time, as the electrical infrastructure had to go out many kilometers from Seoul into the forest and up on the mountain that Kukkiwon sat upon. They were concerned that the light would not go on.  Suddenly the light went on and all the Kwanjang let out a big yell!  He said that it was the proudest moment in their Taekwondo lives.  Then GM Lee told me that anyone who does not follow Kukkiwon is not following their biggest seniors wishes. He said to follow Kukkiwon is not a direction coming from some second or third generation people, it is coming from him, and all the other Kwan. His last comment on that subject was that if you don't follow Kukkiwon, you don't follow him. Those are the broken relationships, without a lineage.


----------



## iron_ox

> I believe Kong Soo Do contacted you to verify whether GM Pelligrini was promoted to 6th Dan by the WHF. I notice there was no response to that.



I am assuming you are referring to an email question...until today, the email address I had posted was about 9 years out of date, do I never got that email. Sorry. But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini?  I guess.  Did Pellegrini have the time or training in?  Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?





> Just curious, but do you think GM CHOI Yong Sul "sold" rank as well? Also, how much does GM Lim charge you for promotions? How do you feel about learning Hapkido mainly in a seminar setting? Do you believe that is the way to go?



What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea.  He was consistent during his life in ranking people.  That seems certain.  Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.

This thread is about Pellegrini.  Not me.  The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business.  I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.  

I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.  

This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.


----------



## iron_ox

MJS said:


> So, what is it exactly that rubs people the wrong way?  His lack of time in traditional Hapkido?  Him removing certain things that're found in traditional Hapkido?



Frankly he never learned enough "traditional" Hapkido to remove anything - the stuff he claims to have removed never existed there in the first place, but he really doesn't know that.

Not sure about the comments of disrespecting seniors, or whether the idea that it was done 10 years ago applies to my comments then, but I am Pellegrini's senior in Hapkido, now in Pellegrini-do, yep, he is above us all...


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> I am assuming you are referring to an email question...until today, the email address I had posted was about 9 years out of date, do I never got that email. Sorry. *But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini? I guess.* Did Pellegrini have the time or training in? Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?


I generally like to be absolutely certain of that sort of thing before posting it.




iron_ox said:


> What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea. He was consistent during his life in ranking people. That seems certain. Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.
> 
> This thread is about Pellegrini. Not me. The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business. I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.
> 
> I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.
> 
> This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.


I agree.  

As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank _will not be issued _without said payment, then technically, it can be called selling rank.  Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank _will not be issued _without said payment, then technically, it can be called selling rank.  Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.



Let's make sure we're clear on this.  There is a difference between 'selling rank' and charging for a proper evaluation.  An instructor, qualified in the art in question and of sufficient rank to administer the test who in turn actually tests the skills of the individual is entitled to be compensated for the test and time involved IF they want to be compensated.  Or, if the instructor is going to promote a higher ranking individual where a physical test is unnecessary or impractical (for a variety of reasons) the instructor can use other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.

Selling rank is quite different.  It could involve an 'airport' promotion.  Or a back room, under the table or good ole boy promotion for cold hard cash or a cut of the school profits from the new 'master'.  Considerations such as skill level, experience, teaching ability, time in grade/arts are not a factor as much as how much money can be made.  

We need to be clear as to what is acceptable and what is shady (at least in most people's eyes).  Uechi Kanei Sensei promoted people from zero to Godan (5th Dan) in the 50's.  However, they had just converted to the Dan/Kyu system.  The practitioners that received Godan were Seniors in the art that had studied under Uechi Kanbun Sensei.  And it was necessary to fill in the hierarchy of the art.  This is acceptable.  Examples of what (by most people) is unacceptable abound, unfortunately, in the arts.  

The level of skill, or lack of skill from GM P at this point, as has been stated is moot.  He has his own art/organization which people have found value in and through.  In order to question him would be to question those that promoted him to the various levels.  I will say one thing for consideration; it has been brought up that he has weak hands due to injury and cannot perform some techniques and has found ways around that disability.  I don't have an issue with that as it would do well for smaller men or women with weaker hands or those that have a similar disability.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini?  I guess.



What rank did GM Myung promote GM Pellegrini to? Was it 6th Dan? I think that was the question that was being emailed to you. 




iron_ox said:


> Did Pellegrini have the time or training in?  Not as I understand it...but since Myung's dead, its kinda mute don't you think?



Well, let's compare your own training with GM Lim. You go to Korea every year, since what 2004. Say that is 8 trips. I don't know how long you stay but let's say 7 training days. That is 56 days of training. Some people would say that 56 days of training would be enough for maybe an orange belt or green belt. Is that your Jungkikwan rank from GM Lim? 





iron_ox said:


> What Choi Dojunim did in terms of "selling" rank I have no idea.  He was consistent during his life in ranking people.  That seems certain.  Since obtaining a ninth dan would have been highly coveted, and only 4 were ever issued, and I know the three living 9th dans (personally) didn't buy them, I would say that's a good enough benchmark.



There are some other questions, but let's start with this one: One person starts Hapkido in 1990 and gets 1st Dan in 1995, continues training, but no further promotions. Another starts in 2005 and gets up to 2nd Dan in 2012. Who is more senior in your opinion?




iron_ox said:


> The cost of rank in the Jungki Kwan is not in question here and is frankly none of your business.



Must be really high, because if it were reasonable, you would tell us. 




iron_ox said:


> I don't live in Korea, so I train with Grandmaster Lim as often as I can. He and I are both very satisfied with that arrangement.



I am sure GM Seo and GM Pellegrini are happy with their arrangement, but that didn't stop you from criticizing them. Interesting that you do almost the same thing, and when that is raised, you get defensive. 




iron_ox said:


> I will add this, while I am happy to discuss the Jungki Kwan, and Grandmaster Lim, my research into Hapkido - and the many non-Hapkido variants - is not based on the word of one man.



My research into Hapkido is also not based on the word of one man. I will add this, I find it interesting that you say GM Lim, GM Wollmershauser, GM Adams, Choi Dojunim, but then refer to GM Myung as Myung, GM Seo as Seo, and GM Pellegrini as Pellegrini. Why is that? 




iron_ox said:


> This thread is about Pellegrini, lets keep it there.



We can start up a new thread if you want. I'm sure there are lots of people interested in the Jungkikwan.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I generally like to be absolutely certain of that sort of thing before posting it.



Here are a few quotes from around the net from some reputable sources about Pellegrini and rank:

_Ladies and Gentlemen:

I am often very quiet about the goings on DD but there are times when 
silence is not an option. Master Tomlinson, I appreciate your chronology  of Mr. Pelligrini's history but there are a few facts that was left  out. Before I say 
anything let me make perfectly clear that I have no issue with Mr Pelligrini. 
he is where is because "the system" permitted it. I will add to what Master 
Tomlinson wrote because it's history and if it will help someone to make an 
informed decision, I am all for it. What I have to add is based on my own 
personal experience with him.

Mr. Pelligrini was also a member of the World Oriental Martial Arts 
Federation (WOMAF) and the Korean Hapkido Federation (KHF) both led by  GMs Sang Kook Kim and James Garrison or Portland, Oregon. He became a  member of WOMAF and KHF circa 1990 then a 1st dan issued by GM Michael  Wollmershauser who led the AHA. In 1992, Mr. tested for his 2nd dan at a  seminar led by GM Garrison at seminar in Las Vegas. I, then a 5th dan,  was a member of the exam board. Mr. Pellegrini was issued a provisional  2nd dan because is performance at the exam was not satisfactory. He was  extended this privilege based on GM Arthur Gitlin and my recommendation.  GM Garrison was against this idea but he went along with it. 

Shortly after that weekend GM Gitlin received a letter from Mr.  Pellegrini resigning his membership on the ground that standards set by  GM Garrison was too high and therefore unattainable. That's I know  personally.

Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster
IKMAF_

_Mike T writes;

Actually I witnessed Pelligrini recieve his 1st Dan black belt in  Hapkido in 1989 to 1990 from Mike Wollmershauser..it was after a 5 day  seminar in Orange City Florida at Chester Holubecki's Isshinryu  Dojo..check around..the truth "should" set you free..did I use the word  free?? At that time Pelligrini had NO Hapkido experience at ALL. He  owned a TKD dojang in south Florida and came up to get some Hapkido  training...HE KNEW NO HAPKIDO THEN, he didn't even know how to take a  fall!! I was there in person and saw it..period. After his quick  "honorary" second dan from the AHA in about 1991 he jumped to the WHF.. I  have a black belt in Hapkido from the WHF in 1992 from Master Hal  Whalen who was the instructor of the year in that organization at the  time and is on all the early WHF video's assisting Kwang Sik Myung. So  no offense to Peter Donello but your facts are all WRONG!! In the mid  80's Pelligrini hadn't even smelled any Hapkido yet...he should of  possibly been a blue belt and taking falls about that time but he chose a  different route and that is the reason you won't get a lot of us old  timers to buy into the hype and propaganda. Pay your dues on the mat not  on the credit card and then you will earn the respect of all of  us...that is the advice I have for EVERYONE who is interested in Hapkido  regardless of rank, organization, or anything else...IF you do that you  are my Hapkido brother if you don't than you are just a salesman with a  nice marketing idea that I don't respect anymore than a used car  salesman trying to pawn off a 74 vega on me...don't tell me because  someone is a good salesman that somehow that makes their Hapkido  legitimate...PLEASE...that is straight bullsh-t.
Michael Tomlinson

More from Michael Tomlinson

I feel what Dakin is saying and I agree..work out with who you want, spend 
your money on what you want...BUT please don't get defensive and mad  when guys on here tell you the truth who were there and not gossiping  but 
informing people of the "actual history" it's a service to people to hear 
this information and not a bashing on anyone....I'm getting too old for all 
that!!!

..I don't think Pelligrini got his BB in 1988 but I could be mistaken...the 
only way I know about all of this is because I was personally there on the 
mat when it all happened...Orange City...Chester Holubecki's Dojo...it was 
where MY instructor taught HKD at that time...we worked out there 3 times a 
week religiously and a lot of times on Saturday too, every class was 2 and a 
half hours or more...once a year Mike Wollmershauser came down to do a  three to five day AHA seminar...Chester was from Springfield Mass, Mike  W. was from Springfield Mass, and my instructor Steve Mortel who was one  of Hal Whalen's first black belts, had moved to my area of Florida from  
Boston....lot's of Mass. guys who knew each other....that's why we were at 
an Isshin Ryu Karate Dojo doing "real" HKD..plus Chester had some really 
good mats which were hard to find in the early 90's and late 80's...anywho 
Pelligrini owned a tkd school in Sunrise Florida and ONLY came up for the 
seminar..no one in our area knew him at all....I saw him recieve his 1st dan 
from Mike W..Pelligrini didn't do HKD then,..and knew nothing about HKD 
before that seminar.

..by 1992 I was testing for my 1st dan with Hal Whalen 
and we were in the WHF under Kwang Sik Myung...Pelligrini was NOW in the  WHF so I was aware of his entire HKD history in the very early  stages....ask 
yourself this??? Pelligrini recieved his 1st and 2nd dan in the AHA...and 
they were basically honorary...then he jumped to the WHF when Mike W. 
wouldn't promote him anymore, where did I hear this? From Mike W. 
personally...no worries..doesn't concern me and I have nothing but good 
things to say about Mike W., he treated me great and showed me some  awesome HKD..plus he was good friends with Hal Whalen and Steve  Mortel...by 1993 or so Pelligrini was now a 4th or 5th dan in HKD under  Myung....did I agree with this??? 

No, was it my business, no....so whatever..BUT...he was in the 
AHA and the WHF and that is the ONLY place he trained in HKD before he 
started his own thing....ok...fast tracked with two honorary HKD black belts 
in the AHA and skipped to 4th and 5th in the WHF,,, ALL WITHIN ABOUT 6 
YEARS!!! I'm not saying anything about anyone on here...it is just the 
facts.....just one question more and I'll stop..... Why doesn't Pelligrini 
state these facts on his website???? I read all the info on his link with 
all his accolades and accomplishments and history...why would he not put his 
training on there with the AHA and the WHF....it doesn't make sense to me 
that you would leave off the two organizations where you recieved your 
actual HKD training???? Why is that??? Just some facts and  questions....again...I don't care who or where anyone trains  with....it's 
all up to you..if you love training with him that is great and I am happy 
for you..but putting advertisements on here about a seminar with marketing 
stuff that some of us old timers no better will get these kind of facts 
stated everytime...it's not bashing...it's our duty as old time HKD people 
to let EVERYONE know...you make your own choices and decisions...but at 
least you know the truth...

Michael Tomlinson

From Hal Whalen

As I read the posts from both Master Dakin Burdik and Master Mike  Tomlinson ,I would first like to thank them for their compliments and  kind Words.

As far as john Pelligirini goes ,A couple of things had been overlooked John
was once involved with Master Garrison out of Oregon ,Before he became  involved with Master Myung and The WHFand was asked to leave.

There are reasons Master Myung Has never come out publicly I will go into a
little detail ,I was first a member of the WHF and the first Non-Korean to
receive 5TH Dan from them in 1987,This is before Pelligrini was even a member or in Hapkido he was still TKD

I first Met John in Jan or Feb of 1991 at a seminar held in Ca. at the World
Hapkido Federations Dojang ,It was a two day instructors course along with
annual Banquet. john moved Best when a Camera came out It made most of the People at the seminar laugh

I was there with several of My Black Belt students john was partnered up  with Donald Hahn ,I remember Him complaining about his wrist and the  fact he would only use one side doing Techniques ,And when we kicked  someone said I thought He did Tae Kwon Do but his kicks "SUCKED"

After about ten minutes Donald Switched partners so we were paired up  ,Don's reaction was Now we Do Hapkido he was upset That even before he  applied the Technique or pressure John would tap out ,or he would have  too guided to the Floor because He did not Seem to know how fall .Don  and I did " Balls To walls " Hapkido the way it was meant to be every  time Master Myung Had people switch he would look over at us . and "Say  Not you Two"

That evening was the Instructors Banquet held at a local restaurant the guest
Speaker was Hwang,Duk Kyu the President of The KHA at that time . While  dinner was going on John mentioned He was upset about the possibility we  would be forced to do forms that Myung made up . He asked me Since you  are the Senior American would you please approach Master Myung ,Which I  did the Following day.

The next Day I approached Master Myung and Mentioned some of the  Instructors asked if We could not do the Forms , And he said those that  wish not to do the Forms please step over to the Wall ,John did not move  he stood there to give the impression it was all me ,This was his lame  attempt to either Knock me down or discredit me , He could not do it on  the Mat.

That was the Beginning of my lost of respect for him.Master Myung held a
seminar in New York in or around 1992 at a Dojang owned by someone John  had promoted to first or second Dan . Two of My Black Belts were there I  could not make it My wife was Pregnant and Due .. Not one of the  Students there could fall And My Black Belts stepped up to assisit  Master Myung in teaching A seminar on how to fall ,They were  disappointed since little or No hapkido would be taught ,It was around  this time He was either asked to leave or suggested ,If I had any  respect for him it was lost ,



_What exactly was I being asked about and why should I be certain about a rank from Kwang Sik Myung?? Does it really matter what rank Pellegrini got from Myung? Not really, but I'm not sure that is the discussion here; but not to get too far sidetracked, Pellegrini got low honorary rank from Master Mike Wollmershauser, some mid rank from Myung Kwang Sik (the level of which is clearly know better by others that were there) and a 10th Dan from a man with a 3rd dan in Hapkido...so go figure if the rank Pellegrini has is valid.

If the "number of the ranlk that was awarded by Myung is important, I can drop Hal Whalen a line and ask him...but his statement above seems pretty clear.

Do you want to know if Myung "sold" rank?? if thats the question, my personal experience was, about 8 years ago I trained someone to test with Myung for 4th Dan.  I thought it was going to be a face to face test.  It turns out that the two had not seen each other in years and the test was on video tape - fo Master rank, so in my opinion that consitutes *selling* rank, yep.

How's that for being certain?


----------



## iron_ox

puunui, Before I worry about any of your questions, who are you?  You want to question my background, lets start with your name and your background.  And before you start a thread about me or the Jungki Kwan, understand I do not speak for the organization, I am a member, if you live in the US or Europe, or Korea, go to a Jungki Kwan Dojang for information.

Actually, sorry, I did a quick check, I believe you are Glenn Uesugi correct?  I notice you have tried to derail a few other threads you didn't agree with someone by making the thread about them, so if you really want to bicker with me, take it to PM so I can ignore you there.  If you are Glenn Uesugi, I understand why you might want to "question" me given my stance on certain things! LOL


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Daniel Sullivan said:
> 
> 
> 
> As far as selling rank goes, if there is a monetary payment involved, regardless of what costs it is supposedly covering, and if the rank _will not be issued _without said payment, *then technically, it can be called selling rank*. Even if the test was a grueling five hour affair.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Let's make sure we're clear on this. There is a difference between 'selling rank' and charging for a proper evaluation.
Click to expand...


I think you missed where I said that '*technically*, it *can* be called selling rank.'

The reason is that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "proper evaluation."  



Kong Soo Do said:


> An instructor, qualified in the art in question and of sufficient rank to administer the test who in turn actually tests the skills of the individual is entitled to be compensated for the test and time involved IF they want to be compensated.



If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?  



Kong Soo Do said:


> Or, if the instructor is going to promote a higher ranking individual where a physical test is unnecessary or impractical (for a variety of reasons) the instructor can use other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.



All of which is subjective.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> Selling rank is quite different. It could involve an 'airport' promotion. Or a back room, under the table or good ole boy promotion for cold hard cash or a cut of the school profits from the new 'master'. *Considerations such as skill level, experience, teaching ability, time in grade/arts are not a factor as much as how much money can be made.*



And unless you are present for the promotion in question *and* know the minds of the people involved, how can you determine this?  Perhaps the promting master was going on other criteria such as teaching ability, contributions to the art(s) etc.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> We need to be clear as to what is acceptable and what is shady (at least in most people's eyes). Uechi Kanei Sensei promoted people from zero to Godan (5th Dan) in the 50's. However, they had just converted to the Dan/Kyu system. The practitioners that received Godan were Seniors in the art that had studied under Uechi Kanbun Sensei. And it was necessary to fill in the hierarchy of the art. This is acceptable. Examples of what (by most people) is unacceptable abound, unfortunately, in the arts.


I agree.  But on what criteria do you judge what is acceptable or unacceptable?  

Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?  
What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth dan simply because you are the head of the organization?  
What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them bestow rank upon you?
How about mailing it in?  Literally.  A video of you doing the required techniques.  Chuck Norris is reputed to have done this.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> The level of skill, or lack of skill from GM P at this point, as has been stated is moot. He has his own art/organization which people have found value in and through. In order to question him would be to question those that promoted him to the various levels. I will say one thing for consideration; it has been brought up that he has weak hands due to injury and cannot perform some techniques and has found ways around that disability. I don't have an issue with that as it would do well for smaller men or women with weaker hands or those that have a similar disability.


To be clear, I have no issues whatsoever with GMP's promotions.  

As for questioning those who promoted him, there are people who do.  I am not one of them.  At the end of the day, the people who promoted him have to live with the decisions that they made, not I.  And he has to live with whatever he did to obtain rank from those people, not I.  

There aren't very many physical schools teaching Cheon Tu Kwan hapkido; most of the people who train in it do so via video.  If you are willing to train via video, for whatever reason, then chances are, how the instructor obtained his or her rank is probably unimportant to you; primary considerations for video students usually are convenience and cost effectiveness.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think you missed where I said that '*technically*, it *can* be called selling rank.'
> 
> The reason is that there is no consensus on what constitutes a "proper evaluation."



Is that "proper evaluation" in the eyes of the person issuing the rank? Yes?  In Gumdo, for example, the Korea Gumdo Assoc. has very defined criteria as I am told for rank progression, and the fees that are to be paid to the association for the rank, I think many of these fees go to the panels time, the certificate, administration stuff, but thats if you actually go and test in front of them I assume.





Daniel Sullivan said:


> If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?



Interesting thought, so a fee is relevant if you just go and do a grading?  Do your students grade with you or go elsewhere, and do you charge them?  I'm not asking prices, just how you see this being put into practice.





Daniel Sullivan said:


> Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?
> What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth dan simply because you are the head of the organization?
> What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them bestow rank upon you?
> How about mailing it in?  Literally.  A video of you doing the required techniques.  Chuck Norris is reputed to have done this.



Does it matter if someone starts their own ORG. then issues grades out of that ORG. to you?  Just wanted your take on that idea.




Daniel Sullivan said:


> To be clear, I have no issues whatsoever with GMP's promotions.
> 
> As for questioning those who promoted him, there are people who do.  I am not one of them.  At the end of the day, the people who promoted him have to live with the decisions that they made, not I.  And he has to live with whatever he did to obtain rank from those people, not I.
> 
> There aren't very many physical schools teaching Cheon Tu Kwan hapkido; most of the people who train in it do so via video.  If you are willing to train via video, for whatever reason, then chances are, how the instructor obtained his or her rank is probably unimportant to you; primary considerations for video students usually are convenience and cost effectiveness.



You study the art that is directly affected by such things.  Hapkido is directly affected when this sort of thing happens and everyone says "its just rank, or its just political, or we should all just train more and see each other on the mat" - that's fine, but the fact is that people in the art already might be able to say that, people that are new to Hapkido think such things as 10th dans hold water in this art from organizations that have a training space in Korea that the certificates are issued from...this sort of thing has diluted the entire art!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> Here are a few quotes from around the net from some reputable sources about Pellegrini and rank:
> 
> _Ladies and Gentlemen:
> 
> I am often very quiet about the goings on DD but there are times when
> silence is not an option. Master Tomlinson, I appreciate your chronology of Mr. Pelligrini's history but there are a few facts that was left out. Before I say
> anything let me make perfectly clear that I have no issue with Mr Pelligrini.
> he is where is because "the system" permitted it. I will add to what Master
> Tomlinson wrote because it's history and if it will help someone to make an
> informed decision, I am all for it. What I have to add is based on my own
> personal experience with him.
> 
> Mr. Pelligrini was also a member of the World Oriental Martial Arts
> Federation (WOMAF) and the Korean Hapkido Federation (KHF) both led by GMs Sang Kook Kim and James Garrison or Portland, Oregon. He became a member of WOMAF and KHF circa 1990 then a 1st dan issued by GM Michael Wollmershauser who led the AHA. In 1992, Mr. tested for his 2nd dan at a seminar led by GM Garrison at seminar in Las Vegas. I, then a 5th dan, was a member of the exam board. Mr. Pellegrini was issued a provisional 2nd dan because is performance at the exam was not satisfactory. He was extended this privilege based on GM Arthur Gitlin and my recommendation. GM Garrison was against this idea but he went along with it.
> 
> Shortly after that weekend GM Gitlin received a letter from Mr. Pellegrini resigning his membership on the ground that standards set by GM Garrison was too high and therefore unattainable. That's I know personally.
> 
> Ian A. Cyrus, Headmaster
> IKMAF_
> 
> _Mike T writes;
> 
> Actually I witnessed Pelligrini recieve his 1st Dan black belt in Hapkido in 1989 to 1990 from Mike Wollmershauser..it was after a 5 day seminar in Orange City Florida at Chester Holubecki's Isshinryu Dojo..check around..the truth "should" set you free..did I use the word free?? At that time Pelligrini had NO Hapkido experience at ALL. He owned a TKD dojang in south Florida and came up to get some Hapkido training...HE KNEW NO HAPKIDO THEN, he didn't even know how to take a fall!! I was there in person and saw it..period. After his quick "honorary" second dan from the AHA in about 1991 he jumped to the WHF.. I have a black belt in Hapkido from the WHF in 1992 from Master Hal Whalen who was the instructor of the year in that organization at the time and is on all the early WHF video's assisting Kwang Sik Myung. So no offense to Peter Donello but your facts are all WRONG!! In the mid 80's Pelligrini hadn't even smelled any Hapkido yet...he should of possibly been a blue belt and taking falls about that time but he chose a different route and that is the reason you won't get a lot of us old timers to buy into the hype and propaganda. Pay your dues on the mat not on the credit card and then you will earn the respect of all of us...that is the advice I have for EVERYONE who is interested in Hapkido regardless of rank, organization, or anything else...IF you do that you are my Hapkido brother if you don't than you are just a salesman with a nice marketing idea that I don't respect anymore than a used car salesman trying to pawn off a 74 vega on me...don't tell me because someone is a good salesman that somehow that makes their Hapkido legitimate...PLEASE...that is straight bullsh-t.
> Michael Tomlinson
> 
> More from Michael Tomlinson
> 
> I feel what Dakin is saying and I agree..work out with who you want, spend
> your money on what you want...BUT please don't get defensive and mad when guys on here tell you the truth who were there and not gossiping but
> informing people of the "actual history" it's a service to people to hear
> this information and not a bashing on anyone....I'm getting too old for all
> that!!!
> 
> ..I don't think Pelligrini got his BB in 1988 but I could be mistaken...the
> only way I know about all of this is because I was personally there on the
> mat when it all happened...Orange City...Chester Holubecki's Dojo...it was
> where MY instructor taught HKD at that time...we worked out there 3 times a
> week religiously and a lot of times on Saturday too, every class was 2 and a
> half hours or more...once a year Mike Wollmershauser came down to do a three to five day AHA seminar...Chester was from Springfield Mass, Mike W. was from Springfield Mass, and my instructor Steve Mortel who was one of Hal Whalen's first black belts, had moved to my area of Florida from
> Boston....lot's of Mass. guys who knew each other....that's why we were at
> an Isshin Ryu Karate Dojo doing "real" HKD..plus Chester had some really
> good mats which were hard to find in the early 90's and late 80's...anywho
> Pelligrini owned a tkd school in Sunrise Florida and ONLY came up for the
> seminar..no one in our area knew him at all....I saw him recieve his 1st dan
> from Mike W..Pelligrini didn't do HKD then,..and knew nothing about HKD
> before that seminar.
> 
> ..by 1992 I was testing for my 1st dan with Hal Whalen
> and we were in the WHF under Kwang Sik Myung...Pelligrini was NOW in the WHF so I was aware of his entire HKD history in the very early stages....ask
> yourself this??? Pelligrini recieved his 1st and 2nd dan in the AHA...and
> they were basically honorary...then he jumped to the WHF when Mike W.
> wouldn't promote him anymore, where did I hear this? From Mike W.
> personally...no worries..doesn't concern me and I have nothing but good
> things to say about Mike W., he treated me great and showed me some awesome HKD..plus he was good friends with Hal Whalen and Steve Mortel...by 1993 or so Pelligrini was now a 4th or 5th dan in HKD under Myung....did I agree with this???
> 
> No, was it my business, no....so whatever..BUT...he was in the
> AHA and the WHF and that is the ONLY place he trained in HKD before he
> started his own thing....ok...fast tracked with two honorary HKD black belts
> in the AHA and skipped to 4th and 5th in the WHF,,, ALL WITHIN ABOUT 6
> YEARS!!! I'm not saying anything about anyone on here...it is just the
> facts.....just one question more and I'll stop..... Why doesn't Pelligrini
> state these facts on his website???? I read all the info on his link with
> all his accolades and accomplishments and history...why would he not put his
> training on there with the AHA and the WHF....it doesn't make sense to me
> that you would leave off the two organizations where you recieved your
> actual HKD training???? Why is that??? Just some facts and questions....again...I don't care who or where anyone trains with....it's
> all up to you..if you love training with him that is great and I am happy
> for you..but putting advertisements on here about a seminar with marketing
> stuff that some of us old timers no better will get these kind of facts
> stated everytime...it's not bashing...it's our duty as old time HKD people
> to let EVERYONE know...you make your own choices and decisions...but at
> least you know the truth...
> 
> Michael Tomlinson
> 
> From Hal Whalen
> 
> As I read the posts from both Master Dakin Burdik and Master Mike Tomlinson ,I would first like to thank them for their compliments and kind Words.
> 
> As far as john Pelligirini goes ,A couple of things had been overlooked John
> was once involved with Master Garrison out of Oregon ,Before he became involved with Master Myung and The WHFand was asked to leave.
> 
> There are reasons Master Myung Has never come out publicly I will go into a
> little detail ,I was first a member of the WHF and the first Non-Korean to
> receive 5TH Dan from them in 1987,This is before Pelligrini was even a member or in Hapkido he was still TKD
> 
> I first Met John in Jan or Feb of 1991 at a seminar held in Ca. at the World
> Hapkido Federations Dojang ,It was a two day instructors course along with
> annual Banquet. john moved Best when a Camera came out It made most of the People at the seminar laugh
> 
> I was there with several of My Black Belt students john was partnered up with Donald Hahn ,I remember Him complaining about his wrist and the fact he would only use one side doing Techniques ,And when we kicked someone said I thought He did Tae Kwon Do but his kicks "SUCKED"
> 
> After about ten minutes Donald Switched partners so we were paired up ,Don's reaction was Now we Do Hapkido he was upset That even before he applied the Technique or pressure John would tap out ,or he would have too guided to the Floor because He did not Seem to know how fall .Don and I did " Balls To walls " Hapkido the way it was meant to be every time Master Myung Had people switch he would look over at us . and "Say Not you Two"
> 
> That evening was the Instructors Banquet held at a local restaurant the guest
> Speaker was Hwang,Duk Kyu the President of The KHA at that time . While dinner was going on John mentioned He was upset about the possibility we would be forced to do forms that Myung made up . He asked me Since you are the Senior American would you please approach Master Myung ,Which I did the Following day.
> 
> The next Day I approached Master Myung and Mentioned some of the Instructors asked if We could not do the Forms , And he said those that wish not to do the Forms please step over to the Wall ,John did not move he stood there to give the impression it was all me ,This was his lame attempt to either Knock me down or discredit me , He could not do it on the Mat.
> 
> That was the Beginning of my lost of respect for him.Master Myung held a
> seminar in New York in or around 1992 at a Dojang owned by someone John had promoted to first or second Dan . Two of My Black Belts were there I could not make it My wife was Pregnant and Due .. Not one of the Students there could fall And My Black Belts stepped up to assisit Master Myung in teaching A seminar on how to fall ,They were disappointed since little or No hapkido would be taught ,It was around this time He was either asked to leave or suggested ,If I had any respect for him it was lost ,
> 
> 
> 
> _What exactly was I being asked about and why should I be certain about a rank from Kwang Sik Myung?? Does it really matter what rank Pellegrini got from Myung? Not really, but I'm not sure that is the discussion here; but not to get too far sidetracked, Pellegrini got low honorary rank from Master Mike Wollmershauser, some mid rank from Myung Kwang Sik (the level of which is clearly know better by others that were there) and a 10th Dan from a man with a 3rd dan in Hapkido...so go figure if the rank Pellegrini has is valid.
> 
> If the "number of the ranlk that was awarded by Myung is important, I can drop Hal Whalen a line and ask him...but his statement above seems pretty clear.
> 
> Do you want to know if Myung "sold" rank?? if thats the question, my personal experience was, about 8 years ago I trained someone to test with Myung for 4th Dan. I thought it was going to be a face to face test. It turns out that the two had not seen each other in years and the test was on video tape - fo Master rank, so in my opinion that consitutes *selling* rank, yep.
> 
> *How's that for being certain? *



Okay by me.  

I was responding to your comment of 



iron_ox said:


> 'But, since you ask, did Myung Kwang Sik promote Pellegrini?* I guess.*'



When people say, 'I guess,' it sounds uncertain in and of itself.

As I said earlier, people need to live with the decisions that they make.  GMP obtained his hapkido rank in whatever way it was that he obtained it.  Since he wasn't a decades long HKD practitioner at the time, I'm sure that he and whoever ranked him were aware that the promotions might raise a few eyebrows.  They have to live with that.  Perhaps they are perfectly content in their arrangements and see no issue with them whatsoever.  Or perhaps not.  

My former GM is in my age range (below 45).  He broke from the IHF and the FIK, started his own hapkido and kendo federations and declared himself 9th dan by virtue of being the organizational head.  How a 34 years old at the time man is a 9th dan in kendo and hapkido and why he broke from those organizations is a question that he will have to answer to those who ask.  I received eight years of very good instruction from him, along with a fouth dan ranking in his kendo program.  I am on my own now, but I have an open invitation to go back and train with him.  As far as I am concerned, I received what I paid for: eight years of very good instruction, an opportunity to teach classes for several years, an inside knowledge of how a dojo functions, and credentials in the form of a fourth dan and teaching certificates in both kendo and hapkido.  As far as his rank goes?  That is between he and his seniors.

My thanks for the clarification.

Daniel


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Hi Daniel,

You've posed some good questions, forgive me if I miss something;



Daniel Sullivan said:


> If I am paying organizational dues and fees to train in the class, why is an instructor entitled to charge me again?



I can't answer this.  Our organization doesn't have dues and most of us don't charge a testing fee at any level.  



> Going to a paper mill and buying a certificate that says that you're eighth dan; is that acceptable?



I can only answer for myself, I would say this is unacceptable generally.  



> What about starting your own organization and declaring yourself eighth  dan simply because you are the head of the organization?



I would suggest this is a case-by-case basis.  Are we talking about a guy with a couple of weekends worth of seminars declaring himself a GM with an 8th Dan?  Are we talking about someone with 20, 30, 40 years of training/teaching or more that can show rank progression i.e. a 1st Dan, 2nd Dan and up?  



> What about meeting with grandmasters who may know you through reputation  and correspondence, paying to attend their seminars, and having them  bestow rank upon you?



I know someone on this board that is generally well respected in TSD and the KMA community that did something similar to this.  It was well received from his peers in various KMA's.  I spoke with him directly about it.  No one seemed to have an issue within his circle and to be honest, his circle is pretty wide and far reaching with some well respected names.



> How about mailing it in?  Literally.  A video of you doing the required techniques.



Generally a face-to-face is better in my opinion.  However, technology is what it is these days and sometimes 'in person' can't be done for a variety of reasons.  The KKW allowed up to 3rd Dan without being there in person or even video.  As long as the paper work was satisfied and the check was good the promotion went through.  So if someone can do whatever is required on video and submit it to someone qualified to review it...well 'was it live or was it Memorex'


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> I notice you have tried to derail a few other threads you didn't agree with someone by making the thread about them, so if you really want to bicker with me, take it to PM so I can ignore you there.




You don't know if I agree or disagree with you or not. And whether GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan is probably more important to other people than to me. I know the answer and I know what Master Whalen would say as well, so you do not need to bother him. 

As to the present discussion. There is a story I read in Joe Hyam's book which is worth repeating. A teacher drew two lines in the sand, one shorter than the other. The teacher asked the students, "how do I make the shorter line longer than the longer line?" Students had all sorts of answers, including cutting the longer line into shorter pieces. However no one came up with the answer the teacher was looking for, which was to lengthen the shorter line until it was longer than the other one.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Not sure about the comments of disrespecting seniors, or whether the idea that it was done 10 years ago applies to my comments then, but I am Pellegrini's senior in Hapkido, now in Pellegrini-do, yep, he is above us all...




I'm not so sure about that. One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.



Your humility is staggering.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Your humility is staggering.



Of course it is ok for him to say that he is GM Pellegrini's senior, right? And I notice you make no comment about that, even when he failed to confirm what you wanted him to confirm. Irrespective of all of that, the truth is the truth, which is, I am his senior, which by the way, he already knew when he wrote his posts.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> Is that "proper evaluation" in the eyes of the person issuing the rank? Yes?  In Gumdo, for example, the Korea Gumdo Assoc. has very defined criteria as I am told for rank progression, and the fees that are to be paid to the association for the rank, I think many of these fees go to the panels time, the certificate, administration stuff, but thats if you actually go and test in front of them I assume.



Just to make it clear, my point was not at all that organizations do not have criteria for a proper evaluation.  But, unscrupulous people can jump through hoops to justify what they do as a proper evaluation.  Or scrupulous people may feel that they've been evaluating you all along and simply promote you when they feel that you are ready without a test.  Is it a proper evaluation?  They would say so.  Someone who feels that all tests must be ten hours long and leave you with one foot in the grave may not.



iron_ox said:


> Interesting thought, so a fee is relevant if you just go and do a grading?  Do your students grade with you or go elsewhere, and do you charge them?  I'm not asking prices, just how you see this being put into practice.


I have two private HKD students whom I inherited from another instructor.  I do not  charge them for geub gradings.  The cost of colored belts is inconsequential.  When they are ready to test for ildan, they will test with my master, who is IHF by way of Moo Moo Kwan under GM Hee Kwan Lee in Michigan.  They will need to pay the organization fee, but I will not ask anything more than that from them.

My primary art is kendo.  I teach and I am unaffiliated.  I do not charge for gradings period.



iron_ox said:


> Does it matter if someone starts their own ORG. then issues grades out of that ORG. to you?  Just wanted your take on that idea.


I think that it depends on the reasons that one has for starting their own organization and why they choose to make themselves eighth or ninth dan.  An eighth dan master who breaks away and starts his own org and declares himself ninth dan as the head of that organization I wouldn't raise an eyebrow about.  A fourth or fifth dan who does the same thing would raise an eyebrow or two with me.  I wouldn't out and out call them a fraud, but ninth dan mathematically would take between thirty five and forty years to reach starting from scratch.  Most self promoted ninth dan GM's do not have this amount of time in the art.  I think that a lot of those who do this feel that they have to have the lofty rank in order to be taken seriously, particularly if they are not Asian.

Personally, I think that they would do better to simply teach well and run a good school while seeking an avenue for continued learning and advancement.  Customers honestly don't know the difference.  Just calling yourself master is more than enough for people below your own rank.  People above your rank wouldn't be coming to learn from you anyway; they have their own seniors already.  So the appelation of 'grand' master is frankly pointless in such a scenario unless you already have the years of experience and depth in the art to justify it.



iron_ox said:


> You study the art that is directly affected by such things.  Hapkido is directly affected when this sort of thing happens and everyone says "its just rank, or its just political, or we should all just train more and see each other on the mat" - that's fine, but the fact is that people in the art already might be able to say that, people that are new to Hapkido think such things as 10th dans hold water in this art from organizations that have a training space in Korea that the certificates are issued from...this sort of thing has diluted the entire art!


I don't disagree.  

Personally, I think that the very usage of the kyu/dan system, particularly in a non competitive MA, invites this sort of thing.  

I would rather see the use of descriptive titles than lofty numerical grades.  If you establish your own art, you're the founder.  No grades necessary.  If you become the head of the art, you are the head of the system.  If you are experience enough to teach others how to teach, you are a master.  If you are experienced enough to teach, you are a teacher.  If you are learning to teach and assist a teacher in the process, you are an assistant teacher.  If you run the school and are the highest ranking instructor, you are the headmaster.  If you compete and win your division, you a tournament champion.  If you show up week in and week out to learn, you are simply a student, senior to some and junior to others.

As far as GMP is concerned, he's established an art that has survived for twenty years and he maintains himself as its head.  He got the rank that he wanted (or felt that he needed) and has his CHKD organization.  His system seems to make a lot of people happy and seems to have appeal with people who are experienced MA-ists.  

Unfortunately, leapfrogging to high grades in a short time sets a bad precedent, and most in the know will judge his system negatively because of this.  Those who train in and love the system may not like the criticism, but GMP most likely knew that he would get negative reactions from his peers as a result of such rapid promotion and that his students would be put into the position of having to defend him.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I can't answer this.  Our organization doesn't have dues and most of us don't charge a testing fee at any level.


Well, you seem to feel that an instructor is entitled to charge for testing.  By the way, I'm not saying that he isn't, but once money enters the equation, there needs to be a clear reason as to why so that the student's advancement isn't tied to the money.




Kong Soo Do said:


> I can only answer for myself, I would say this is unacceptable generally.


I agree.  Not only unacceptable, but outdated and overly expensive; they have home computers and photo quality printers for that sort of thing now, no third party needed.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I would suggest this is a case-by-case basis.  Are we talking about a guy with a couple of weekends worth of seminars declaring himself a GM with an 8th Dan?  Are we talking about someone with 20, 30, 40 years of training/teaching or more that can show rank progression i.e. a 1st Dan, 2nd Dan and up?


I agree.  See my response to Iron Ox.




Kong Soo Do said:


> I know someone on this board that is generally well respected in TSD and the KMA community that did something similar to this.  It was well received from his peers in various KMA's.  I spoke with him directly about it.  No one seemed to have an issue within his circle and to be honest, his circle is pretty wide and far reaching with some well respected names.


To be clear, I have no problem with this.  But the organization needs to take pains to see that it is clear that money was not the deciding factor.  Money taints everything.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> Generally a face-to-face is better in my opinion.  However, technology is what it is these days and sometimes 'in person' can't be done for a variety of reasons.  The KKW allowed up to 3rd Dan without being there in person or even video.  As long as the paper work was satisfied and the check was good the promotion went through.  So if someone can do whatever is required on video and submit it to someone qualified to review it...well 'was it live or was it Memorex'


The KKW comment is not accurate.  Fourth dan and higher KKW members may sign dan certificates.  They are in essence Kukkiwon representatives.  

If a school owner of fourth dan or higher promotes a student, they are vouching that that student meets or exceeds the standards set by the Kukkiwon for the promotion.  That representative may promote based on the results of a grading or based on his or her knowledge of the student (I am not certain if the Kukkiwon has a requirement for a unique physical grading or if a simple 'the student is at that level' suffices).

As for whether or not video ranking is in and of itself appropriate, I'd say that it depends on who you ask.


----------



## mastercole

Mr. Dave Schultz, there is no reason to send me private notifications. Anything you have to say, say it here on MT for everyone to read.


----------



## Chris Parker

puunui said:


> We heard IronOx's reason why GM Wollmershauser (who in my opinion had some of the best hand techniques I have ever felt) promoted GM Pelligrini. Instructors promote students for all kinds of reasons. Here is a quote from Ninjitsu grandmaster Hatsumi Sensei: "I feel that the title of soke, or 'grandmaster' as you usually translate it, was in fact given to me way before my technique had matured. In a similar manner, I sometime do the same thing to my students. Even though a person may not be qualified for a given rank technically, I give them the rank in order to pressure them into growing stronger in the future."



Not to distract from the discussion of John Pellegrini, as I'm not familiar with him, or his history, but I will point out that the usage of Hatsumi's quote isn't really a credibility builder. The ranking "system" (such as it is) that exists in the Bujinkan is essentially non-existant, to the point that it is considered to have no value, and be in no way any indication of skill, knowledge, ability, experience, or anything relevant other than knowing the right people, turning up for a day or more in Japan, and paying the cash. It's at the point where the highest ranking are routinely pulled apart as being terrible, despite them being given the rank by Hatsumi, and him saying that they are great examples publicly. Hatsumi's various justifications and quotes that he has used over the years don't change any of that, as none of them are enforced... for example, if a student is "promoted early to pressure them to be stronger", and they don't grow stronger, typically they are promoted again, and told that they are doing well!

Finally, the entire concept is a rather Asian one, and really shouldn't be applied to Western ideas and cultures, as there is too much of a disconnect there.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> I am his senior, which by the way, he already knew when he wrote his posts.



If you knew he was already aware of this....then why post it?  

By the way, just how many 9th Dans are in Sin Moo Hapkido?  And, out of curiosity, how long have you been training in Sin Moo Hapkido specifically?

Thank you.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Well, you seem to feel that an instructor is entitled to charge for testing.



Actually, no.  I personally feel that the test should be free.  Which is why I have never charged a testing fee.  But I acknowledge that many do charge for their time, use of the facility (lights, water etc).  Although I don't object to a reasonable charge to cover time and expenses, we all know that greedy excess often prevails in some areas of the arts.  



> To be clear, I have no problem with this.  But the organization needs to  take pains to see that it is clear that money was not the deciding  factor.  Money taints everything.



I agree.  In the particular example I mentioned, I believe that no money changed hands and the promotee didn't even know about the promotion until it happened.



> The KKW comment is not accurate.



The KKW comment is accurate.  The special testings did not require 1-3rd Dan testers to be present.  This is according to their own flyer.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

mastercole said:


> Mr. Dave Schultz, there is no reason to send me private notifications. Anything you have to say, say it here on MT for everyone to read.


 
No problem Al.  It was for your benefit, not mine.  As I mentioned, 'common sense and fear'.  I'm happy that you understood and complied.  All my best


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> You don't know if I agree or disagree with you or not. And whether GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan is probably more important to other people than to me. I know the answer and I know what Master Whalen would say as well, so you do not need to bother him.



Then why did you ask Mr. Uesugi?  You don't sign your name to your posts, so you want to troll here anonymously?  What a time waster you are.  If you already know all the answers then enlighten us.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> I'm not so sure about that. One thing is sure, I am your senior in Hapkido, and I am not just talking about dan rank either. Just ask any of the people that you quoted.



And again Mr. Uesugi why does that matter?  While there are some heated discussions on this board, this is a place for conversation, not confrontation - if you want that game, I can think of the board we should go to...otherwise, cool your jets.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> Of course it is ok for him to say that he is GM Pellegrini's senior, right? And I notice you make no comment about that, even when he failed to confirm what you wanted him to confirm. Irrespective of all of that, the truth is the truth, which is, I am his senior, which by the way, he already knew when he wrote his posts.



Mr. Uesugi, just for your edification, I didn't have a clue who you where until you started trying to derail the thread.  Then I checked.  I didn't fail to confirm anything.  As I said, repeatedly, I wasn't at the grading, but knew others who were around, and had information about someone else that was grading at the same time - I posted that back in the original post.  That was as far as my contribution was respective of that grading.  

And again, why does it matter if you claim to be my senior?  Not sure what bearing that has on anything. I made a comment to someone else talking about disrespecting seniors that I thought might have been directed to me, that's it.  

Again, you claim to have the answers - so why the trolling?


----------



## mastercole

Kong Soo Do said:


> No problem Al.  It was for your benefit, not mine.  As I mentioned, 'common sense and fear'.  I'm happy that you understood and complied.  All my best



Whatever that means. Much like your post, I don't read your messages, I delete them.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> The KKW comment is accurate.  The special testings did not require 1-3rd Dan testers to be present.  This is according to their own flyer.


Flier???  Do you have a link to this flier?  If you are talking about that special testing a couple of years ago, that was a single event to my knowledge and it was done in conjunction with USAT.  It was not a normative or regular thing.  From what I understand (Glenn probably can answer better than I), it will probably never happen again, as the Kukkiwon was not pleased with how it was approached.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Flier???  Do you have a link to this flier?  If you are talking about that special testing a couple of years ago, that was a single event to my knowledge and it was done in conjunction with USAT.  It was not a normative or regular thing.  From what I unAderstand (Glenn probably can answer better than I), it will probably never happen again, as the Kukkiwon was not pleased with how it was approached.



I don't have a link, it was sent to me via email.  Apparently it isn't a one-time event as it is going to happen in Great Britain (or has happened already as I don't remember the date of the event).  I had discussed this with GM Davies in GB as he had been asked to participate by the KKW.  From our conversation, it was pretty much the same as what Vegas did.  Whether it was tweaked or not I don't know.  Apparently this may be a 'somewhat' regular thing at different venues.


----------



## MJS

iron_ox said:


> Frankly he never learned enough "traditional" Hapkido to remove anything - the stuff he claims to have removed never existed there in the first place, but he really doesn't know that.
> 
> Not sure about the comments of disrespecting seniors, or whether the idea that it was done 10 years ago applies to my comments then, but I am Pellegrini's senior in Hapkido, now in Pellegrini-do, yep, he is above us all...



Its been a while, but I seem to think that he mentioned the way kicks are done.  I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of Hapkido, but I'm curious as to what kicks he's talking about, if you're saying the stuff he's talking about wasnt there to begin with.


----------



## terrylamar

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Flier???  Do you have a link to this flier?  If you are talking about that special testing a couple of years ago, that was a single event to my knowledge and it was done in conjunction with USAT.  It was not a normative or regular thing.  From what I understand (Glenn probably can answer better than I), it will probably never happen again, as the Kukkiwon was not pleased with how it was approached.



The Kukkiwon signed a MOU with the California Unified Taekwondo Association (CUTA.)  There will be more.

"CUTA will now process all Kukkiwon Dan/Poom Certificates in the United States.  CUTA will host Poomsae Seminars, Kukkiwon Instructor courses and events." http://www.cutkda.com/index.php?opt...kukkiwon-a-cuta-unites&catid=37:fp-rokstories


----------



## Kong Soo Do

terrylamar said:


> The Kukkiwon signed a MOU with the California Unified Taekwondo Association (CUTA.)  There will be more.
> 
> "CUTA will now process all Kukkiwon Dan/Poom Certificates in the United States.  CUTA will host Poomsae Seminars, Kukkiwon Instructor courses and events." http://www.cutkda.com/index.php?opt...kukkiwon-a-cuta-unites&catid=37:fp-rokstories



Thank you Terry, that is correct.  Skip Dan testing looks to still be a venue that is being offered;



> The California Unified Taekwondo Association is authorized to conduct  all Kukkiwon events, including the Kukkiwon Dan/Poom Certification up to  7th Dan (_*Skip Dan Certification and Special Skip Dan Certification*_),  Kukkiwon Poomsae Seminars, Instructor Education Seminars and more.



And as I said, it was or will be offered in GB as well.  I would imagine that perhaps other countries in the EU may well see it as well.  I'll have to shoot my friend Simon O'Neill in Spain an email and see if he's heard anything.  If so, I'll let you know.


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Mr. Dave Schultz, there is no reason to send me private notifications. Anything you have to say, say it here on MT for everyone to read.



He was probably inviting you to participate on his message board, which averages about five posts per month, from the same four or five people. You and/or I going there makes about as much sense as he showing up to a WTF event. We come from different worlds and are going in different directions. I understand he could use some help jump starting his message board, but we have more important things to focus on this year.


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> Not to distract from the discussion of John Pellegrini, as I'm not familiar with him, or his history, but I will point out that the usage of Hatsumi's quote isn't really a credibility builder. The ranking "system" (such as it is) that exists in the Bujinkan is essentially non-existant, to the point that it is considered to have no value, and be in no way any indication of skill, knowledge, ability, experience, or anything relevant other than knowing the right people, turning up for a day or more in Japan, and paying the cash. It's at the point where the highest ranking are routinely pulled apart as being terrible, despite them being given the rank by Hatsumi, and him saying that they are great examples publicly. Hatsumi's various justifications and quotes that he has used over the years don't change any of that, as none of them are enforced... for example, if a student is "promoted early to pressure them to be stronger", and they don't grow stronger, typically they are promoted again, and told that they are doing well!
> 
> Finally, the entire concept is a rather Asian one, and really shouldn't be applied to Western ideas and cultures, as there is too much of a disconnect there.




Thank you for you post. Actually it was very appropriate, if you understand how Hatsumi Sensei and other seniors think and regard promotions, which is completely different from others, especially in the western world. Judging Hatsumi Sensei or GM Seo's actions without understanding or even attempting to understand their cultural point of view is like, again, an American going to London and telling the British that they speak funny english.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> If you knew he was already aware of this....then why post it?




To let other people know and figure out for themselves if that is the type of example that they wish to follow, disrespecting their seniors in the fashion that he does.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Then why did you ask Mr. Uesugi?  You don't sign your name to your posts, so you want to troll here anonymously?  What a time waster you are.  If you already know all the answers then enlighten us.




Gee, how rude you are. Actually, Kong Soo Do I believe posted about GM Myung promoting GM Pelligrini to 6th Dan. I stated that was incorrect. Kong Soo Do did not believe me and pulled one of your old posts to prove that GM Myung did promote GM Pelligrini to 6th Dan and said that he sent you an email to confirm. I was trying to help Kong Soo Do out, but if you have a different opinion about the rank that GM Myung gave to GM Pelligrini, then just say you were mistaken.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> And again Mr. Uesugi why does that matter?  While there are some heated discussions on this board, this is a place for conversation, not confrontation - if you want that game, I can think of the board we should go to...otherwise, cool your jets.




I guess that is something, you addressing me as "Mr.". Better than how you treat GM Myung or GM Seo. 

My jets are cool. What board are you talking about that we should go to? As for why it matters to know how to act towards seniors, that is obviously a question for GM Lim to answer for you.  

You might also wish to consider your attitude toward GM Seo as well, given the fact that GM Adams' lineage is through the Kuk Sool Won. Also, GM Seo has promoted many hapkido practitioners to kodanja rank, not just GM Pelligrini, but also people like GM West, Dr. Kimm, GM Timmerman, GM  and so on. I don't know if you considered all of that.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Flier???  Do you have a link to this flier?  If you are talking about that special testing a couple of years ago, that was a single event to my knowledge and it was done in conjunction with USAT.  It was not a normative or regular thing.  From what I understand (Glenn probably can answer better than I), it will probably never happen again, as the Kukkiwon was not pleased with how it was approached.




I don't think the Kukkiwon wants to do a special testing with the current leadership of USAT. That Las Vegas test left a bad taste in the Kukkiwon's mouths. But the Kukkiwon does recognize that there are practitioners out there that did not have the opportunity to obtain appropriate Kukkiwon rank and they are trying to rectify things. The Kukkiwon is trying to help taekwondoin; it has nothing to do with money, and it is ridiculous to even suggest that.


----------



## puunui

MJS said:


> Its been a while, but I seem to think that he mentioned the way kicks are done.  I'm not very familiar with the ins and outs of Hapkido, but I'm curious as to what kicks he's talking about, if you're saying the stuff he's talking about wasnt there to begin with.



Hapkido has many kicks, perhaps the most kicks of any martial art. There are certainly more kicks in hapkido than there is in taekwondo, for example. Also hapkido kicks are used in different ways for different purposes. There are basic kicks which help digestion and to exercise and move the internal organs, in addition to uses in self defense situations. There are also special kicks such as spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, two leg flying side kick, etc. which some feel are not as practical. I believe these are the types of kicks that GM Pelligrini has not included in his Combat Hapkido, the more acrobatic type kicks.


----------



## puunui

terrylamar said:


> The Kukkiwon signed a MOU with the California Unified Taekwondo Association (CUTA.)  There will be more.



We'll see.... There are all kinds of things going on with regard to the Kukkiwon. This past Friday wasn't a real good one for the organization and President Kang.


----------



## Chris Parker

puunui said:


> Thank you for you post. Actually it was very appropriate, if you understand how Hatsumi Sensei and other seniors think and regard promotions, which is completely different from others, especially in the western world. Judging Hatsumi Sensei or GM Seo's actions without understanding or even attempting to understand their cultural point of view is like, again, an American going to London and telling the British that they speak funny english.



I didn't say it wasn't appropriate, I said that it wasn't adding credibility to others by using Hatsumi's approach. And are you really talking to me about understanding Hatsumi's approach? I feel that I'm in far more of a position to understand it than you are, honestly....


----------



## jks9199

Folks, for the most part, this thread has been a civil and informative discussion.  It's starting to lose the civil aspect, and that takes the informative side out with it.

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite & respectful.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator
*


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> He was probably inviting you to participate on his message board...


 
Actually no.  

Al aka mastercole has chosen the similar low road that you have Glenn.  This road entails;


Posting subtle sarcastic remarks about me, my instructor and our organization that are untrue.
Trying to dig around for some type of dirt on the above.
Trying to deflect from whatever the topic of a thread is and turn it on me and my training background (and you do the same thing to others such as Iron Ox in this thread).
Posting threads here on MT (or in existing threads in an attempt to take them off topic), that use the ravings of a banned troll, as the basis of 'proof'.  These types of threads get shut down by the moderators in short order.  Often before I've seen them and had the opportunity to present the actual truth.  The reason you and Al do this is simply to present a picture of me that isn't accurate.  The fact that it isn't accurate is of little regard to you both.
Since I wanted to avoid this here on MT (and thus ease the strain on the moderators), I created a specific discussion thread on my own board in which you, Al and Jeremy could team up and have complete freedom to trash me on whatever front to your hearts content.  I assured all of you that none of my 'buddies' would join in and I would make my defense alone.  In this way you could freely talk without fear of being warned by a moderator or face the chance of being suspended here on MT.  In fact, I made the statement in the very first post to 'come in and trash me' with all the facts you could put together.  And if a larger audience was needed, links to the thread could be sent far and wide.

Jeremy, to his credit, joined that discussion.  We hashed out a bunch of things.  But you Glenn, for all of your subtle jabs, arrogance and half-truths DIDN'T join the discussion to back up your own words.  After hijacking two dozen threads (or more), after starting multiple threads directly about me....you ran away.  I gave you a golden opportunity to put everything on the table in a venue where you could speak freely without fear of suspension...and you ran away.  And when Al aka mastercole, your buddy, tried the same thing here on MT, I offered him the exact same thing...and he ran away.  I think that speaks volumes about the validity of your words.

Well, the thread is still there and anyone here that wants the link simply needs to pm me (or look in your profile page).  It is there for all to see.  And the invitation still stands if you ever decide to stand behind your words.  That is the only reason I provided you the opportunity to join that board.  Your presence or participation otherwise isn't needed or desired.

BTW, the banned troll that you like to quote and link to for your 'proof' joined that discussion.  He further exposed himself as a liar beyond anything I've exposed him on in the past.


----------



## jks9199

What does any of the above have to do with John Pelligrini?

Let's get back on topic, OK?  This isn't an option or a request.  It's a nicely phrased directive.

*Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Assistant Moderator
*


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> I don't think the Kukkiwon wants to do a special testing with the  current leadership of USAT. That Las Vegas test left a bad taste in the  Kukkiwon's mouths. But the Kukkiwon does recognize that there are  practitioners out there that did not have the opportunity to obtain  appropriate Kukkiwon rank and they are trying to rectify things. The  Kukkiwon is trying to help taekwondoin; it has nothing to do with money,  and it is ridiculous to even suggest that.


The Kukkiwon's registration fees are so modest, particularly with regards to low dan's, I don't really see how it could be about money. 



puunui said:


> We'll see.... There are all kinds of things going on with regard to the Kukkiwon. This past Friday wasn't a real good one for the organization and President Kang.


What happened on Friday??


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Hapkido has many kicks, perhaps the most kicks of any martial art. There are certainly more kicks in hapkido than there is in taekwondo, for example. Also hapkido kicks are used in different ways for different purposes. There are basic kicks which help digestion and to exercise and move the internal organs, in addition to uses in self defense situations. *There are also special kicks such as spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, two leg flying side kick, etc. which some feel are not as practical. I believe these are the types of kicks that GM Pelligrini has not included in his Combat Hapkido, the more acrobatic type kicks.*


That is what he indicated to me in our telephone conversation last year.  He indicated that there is nothing particularly wrong with such techniques; simply that they weren't his thing.

What are your thoughts on the deletion of such techniques?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

MJS said:


> In the June issue of BB magazine there was a very interesting article about John Pellegrini and his brand of Hapkido.  He goes on to explain what he does in his system and how its different from the more traditional Hapkido systems.  In the magazines to come, there have been many articles submitted by people.  Some of them are very supportive of his style while others seem to be very critical about what he has done to the art.
> 
> While I am not a student of Mr. Pellegrini or of Hapkido, I have attended a seminar put on by him at a local MA school.  Not really knowing what to expect, I went anyway.  I have to say that I was very impressed with what I saw.  The material that he taught was IMO, pretty straight forward.  He covered many defenses while standing as well as on the ground.
> 
> *My question is, what do the people on this forum think about Mr. Pellegrini and what he has done to the art?  Was he wrong to take out some of the more traditional things such as the high kicks, kata, etc. or did he do a good thing*?
> 
> Mike



Going back to the OP, I've highlighted the questions.  In regards to the first question;  As I've mentioned previously, Hapkido is not a single, unique, unchanging or unchangeable art.  There are multiple Hapkido organizations around the world.  Each has, to either a small or large extent, a different approach to Hapkido.  What I'm saying is that one organization or 'branch' may not have the number of kicks that another may have.  One might have forms and another may not.  Certain techniques may be done differently or taught differently.   And of course the ranking structures may differ i.e. TIG, promotional requirements etc.  My stance is that _if_ John Pellegrini has taken whatever level of Hapkido he has been taught (and ranked in by others) and _if _he has changed it according to what he thinks is best and _if_ others have found value in it, then no problem exists.  As it is his own art and his own organization then (according to martial historical precedence set by those before him) he can claim to be whatever rank he wishes to claim in said art and organization.  

I'm assuming he's a 9th or 10th Dan?  I don't know what he claims but I suppose if rank and time in the arts makes one a senior then he is senior to many/most on this board?  If you abide by such standards?  If the number of people in an organization, or the number of students one has or the number of black belts you have produced over the course of a martial career is a standard, would that make him a senior to many/most on this board?  I don't know how large CHKD is as I've never looked into it so these are rhetorical questions that could be applied to a number of people in the arts.  Or...not applied as the case my be.  

In regards to the second question in the OP;  speaking from strictly a SD perspective which is my personal venue and focus, high kicks are not normally part of any serious combative art.  They were never placed in WWII Combatives by Fairbairn, Applegate, Sikes, Nelson or O'Neill.  In fact, quite a lot of 'traditional' components were intentionally discarded.  You don't find them in highly rated systems such as SPEAR, Hisardut Krav Maga, Systema, Boatman, PCR, L.E.D.T. etc.  Factually speaking, performing a high kick in the Dojo/Dojang, when one is warmed up, stretched out, barefoot and in a loose fitting uniform on a flat, dry and level surface is quite different from performing a high kick in tight clothing such as jeans or a dress, wearing shoes or high heels, on grass, gravel, oil stained parking lot,   wet or sloping surface, stairs, elevator, confined spaces etc.  This is why high kicks are usually not taught in these types of venues.  Perhaps CHKD follows the same philosophy?  I don't know but suspect perhaps this is the case.  

Removing kata?  Personally I think if one knows the correct applications of kata that it is an invaluable tool.  However, again using the above combatives systems as an example, they don't use 'kata' but do train by rote which is a similar concept.  Again, if what he has developed works in the real world against aggressive, determined attackers then he has done well.  I'm going to try to contact him as I'm now interested to see if he has any type of data base or real world altercations from practitioners of CHKD.  This is something that we do in MSK Kong Soo Do and I know other combatives systems do likewise.  And if the focus of the martial art is SD, which in my opinion is the main (if not sole) purpose and CHKD has in fact be useful to that end...then his rank or how he came by it is of little practical interest.  The proof is what can be done in a violent altercation (as far as SD and the martial arts is concerned).


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> I didn't say it wasn't appropriate, I said that it wasn't adding credibility to others by using Hatsumi's approach.



I understood what you said. What I said was that your comments were appropriate to help others understand what GM Seo did with respect to GM Pelligrini. Many people state that rank means nothing, but usually it comes from people who do not have rank and they are trying to justify their own position. But when someone like Hatsumi Sensei or GM Seo does it, when they say rank means nothing, they are doing it in the opposite way, that if all you want is rank, here it is, higher than you or anyone else thinks you "deserve", which only underlines the concept or philosophy that rank means nothing. 




Chris Parker said:


> And are you really talking to me about understanding Hatsumi's approach? I feel that I'm in far more of a position to understand it than you are, honestly....


 
I realize that you probably think you are in a better position to understand asian based philosophy/culture in general and japanese philosophy/culture in particular better than I. Another poster mentioned my last name in an earlier post. If you googled my last name, you might discover how long the martial arts has been a part of my family, which may change your perspective. Or not. 

Over and above that, Hatsumi Sensei isn't the only teacher who does what was described in the quote. Others have done the same thing, the reason being, that the level in which they operate is so removed from concepts like dan rank or titles that it is virtually meaningless to them. There are other cultural considerations as well.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The Kukkiwon's registration fees are so modest, particularly with regards to low dan's, I don't really see how it could be about money.



Exactly. 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> What happened on Friday??



Things are still in play so I can't really get into the details.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What are your thoughts on the deletion of such techniques?




I personally like the special kicks of hapkido and think they are applicable for self defense. I have students who have used those successfully in self defense situations. I also think that those special kicks are an integral part of Hapkido from a technical, mental and philosophical perspective. If I were a white belt again, I probably wouldn't join a hapkido school if they didn't teach such techniques. However, if a hapkido instructor focused his curriculum for self defense only like GM Pellegrini, and he did not feel confident with using hapkido special kicks for self defense, then I suppose I could understand why he would take it out of his self defense only curriculum.


----------



## IRISH KMA

puunui said:


> Just a little correction.  GM West was NOT certified by GM Seo. The Kido group he and Dr. Kimm are associated with is:
> 
> http://www.kidohae.or.kr
> 
> GM Seo's group is:
> 
> http://www.kidohae.com/
> http://hmjhapkido.or.kr/


----------



## MJS

puunui said:


> Hapkido has many kicks, perhaps the most kicks of any martial art. There are certainly more kicks in hapkido than there is in taekwondo, for example. Also hapkido kicks are used in different ways for different purposes. There are basic kicks which help digestion and to exercise and move the internal organs, in addition to uses in self defense situations. There are also special kicks such as spinning kicks, jump spinning kicks, two leg flying side kick, etc. which some feel are not as practical. I believe these are the types of kicks that GM Pelligrini has not included in his Combat Hapkido, the more acrobatic type kicks.



Yes, you're right, thats probably what he is talking about.  So, back to my original statement...he's most likely getting crapped on, because he removed certain things.  

In your opinion, do you feel those things are practical?


----------



## puunui

IRISH KMA said:


> Just a little correction.  GM West was NOT certified by GM Seo. The Kido group he and Dr. Kimm are associated with is:
> 
> http://www.kidohae.or.kr
> 
> GM Seo's group is:
> 
> http://www.kidohae.com/
> http://hmjhapkido.or.kr/




GM Seo was Kidohae president for 20 or more years, so GM West got dan certificates signed by GM Seo, just like GM Pelligrini.


----------



## puunui

MJS said:


> Yes, you're right, thats probably what he is talking about.  So, back to my original statement...he's most likely getting crapped on, because he removed certain things.



Because he removed certain things, because he was promoted rapidly, because his schools negatively impact some people's dojangs by taking students that may have gone to those instructors, because he makes a lot of money, etc. Take your pick on why people attack him.




MJS said:


> In your opinion, do you feel those things are practical?



Perhaps not for everyone, but yes, those kicks have value in certain self defense situations for certain practitioners, in my opinion.


----------



## MJS

One of the best answers I've got so far! Thank you!!! 




Kong Soo Do said:


> Going back to the OP, I've highlighted the questions.  In regards to the first question;  As I've mentioned previously, Hapkido is not a single, unique, unchanging or unchangeable art.  There are multiple Hapkido organizations around the world.  Each has, to either a small or large extent, a different approach to Hapkido.  What I'm saying is that one organization or 'branch' may not have the number of kicks that another may have.  One might have forms and another may not.  Certain techniques may be done differently or taught differently.   And of course the ranking structures may differ i.e. TIG, promotional requirements etc.  My stance is that _if_ John Pellegrini has taken whatever level of Hapkido he has been taught (and ranked in by others) and _if _he has changed it according to what he thinks is best and _if_ others have found value in it, then no problem exists.  As it is his own art and his own organization then (according to martial historical precedence set by those before him) he can claim to be whatever rank he wishes to claim in said art and organization.



Much like Kenpo, where you also have numerous people who're teaching Ed Parkers Kenpo, yet, there're numerous 'versions' of the way things're taught.  



> I'm assuming he's a 9th or 10th Dan?  I don't know what he claims but I suppose if rank and time in the arts makes one a senior then he is senior to many/most on this board?  If you abide by such standards?  If the number of people in an organization, or the number of students one has or the number of black belts you have produced over the course of a martial career is a standard, would that make him a senior to many/most on this board?  I don't know how large CHKD is as I've never looked into it so these are rhetorical questions that could be applied to a number of people in the arts.  Or...not applied as the case my be.



Yeah, I'm assuming that as well.  I don't know what he claims either, but one thing is certain, he's created his own version.  Right or wrong, he seems to have a large, successful following.



> In regards to the second question in the OP;  speaking from strictly a SD perspective which is my personal venue and focus, high kicks are not normally part of any serious combative art.  They were never placed in WWII Combatives by Fairbairn, Applegate, Sikes, Nelson or O'Neill.  In fact, quite a lot of 'traditional' components were intentionally discarded.  You don't find them in highly rated systems such as SPEAR, Hisardut Krav Maga, Systema, Boatman, PCR, L.E.D.T. etc.  Factually speaking, performing a high kick in the Dojo/Dojang, when one is warmed up, stretched out, barefoot and in a loose fitting uniform on a flat, dry and level surface is quite different from performing a high kick in tight clothing such as jeans or a dress, wearing shoes or high heels, on grass, gravel, oil stained parking lot,   wet or sloping surface, stairs, elevator, confined spaces etc.  This is why high kicks are usually not taught in these types of venues.  Perhaps CHKD follows the same philosophy?  I don't know but suspect perhaps this is the case.



Agreed. 



> Removing kata?  Personally I think if one knows the correct applications of kata that it is an invaluable tool.  However, again using the above combatives systems as an example, they don't use 'kata' but do train by rote which is a similar concept.  Again, if what he has developed works in the real world against aggressive, determined attackers then he has done well.  I'm going to try to contact him as I'm now interested to see if he has any type of data base or real world altercations from practitioners of CHKD.  This is something that we do in MSK Kong Soo Do and I know other combatives systems do likewise.  And if the focus of the martial art is SD, which in my opinion is the main (if not sole) purpose and CHKD has in fact be useful to that end...then his rank or how he came by it is of little practical interest.  The proof is what can be done in a violent altercation (as far as SD and the martial arts is concerned).



Are there kata in Hapkido?  I agree, that if there is kata in your art, that knowing the applications, instead of aimlessly going thru the moves, is VERY important.


----------



## MJS

puunui said:


> Because he removed certain things, because he was promoted rapidly, because his schools negatively impact some people's dojangs by taking students that may have gone to those instructors, because he makes a lot of money, etc. Take your pick on why people attack him.



My take is simple:  if someone is happy with what they're doing, great.   If they have no intention on being the martial arts police, then why concern themselves with what others do?  If those people are happy with what they're doing, and have no intention of leaving their group for any other, then why worry what someone else does?  IMO, if people spent more time training and less time worrying what others are doing, everyone would be better off...lol.

I know there're other Kenpo people who comment on my thoughts/interpretations of the art, and thats fine.  I know what I do, and I know what they do.  I'm happy with what I do. 






> Perhaps not for everyone, but yes, those kicks have value in certain self defense situations for certain practitioners, in my opinion.



Personally, I'm not a high kicker.  IMO, there're good targets chest level and below.  If you want to kick someone in the head, kick 'em in the balls first, then the head, when they lean over...lol.  Seriously though....if someone finds value in high kicks, thats great.


----------



## IRISH KMA

That's the beauty of certifications.  If GM Wests 9th Dan was signed by GM Seo (which it is not) but at one point his certs were then you have 3 GMs (using the term GM loosely) you have 2 extremely skilled martial artsist, West and Timmerman, and one not nearly as skilled as they are all holding the same rank.  Unfortunately that is case not only in Hapkido but Kukkiwon Tae Kwon Do as well.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> There are multiple Hapkido organizations around the world.  Each has, to either a small or large extent, a different approach to Hapkido.  What I'm saying is that one organization or 'branch' may not have the number of kicks that another may have.  One might have forms and another may not.  Certain techniques may be done differently or taught differently.




But the differences are not so great that a hapkido practitioner cannot recognize another hapkido practitioner, as opposed to someone who has studied some other joint lock or throwing art, tried to add some kicks, and calling that hapkido. So even though GM Pellegrini has chosen to not include certain things, what has been retained is recognizable has hapkido.


----------



## puunui

MJS said:


> Much like Kenpo, where you also have numerous people who're teaching Ed Parkers Kenpo, yet, there're numerous 'versions' of the way things're taught.




Kenpo is a little different though, at least the ones which find their lineage through Professor Mitose and/or Professor Chow. Under that lineage, there is almost no consistency that I can see, other than perhaps the shoulder checking or "cover" motion, and the hawaiian spirit of aloha blended in. My uncle studied with Professor Chow in the 1950's (he's in those photos in volume one of the Infinite series) and when I showed him what Professor Chow was doing in the early 1980's when I studied with him, he didn't recognize too much. My uncle and my family both lived about one mile from both Palama Settlement and Nuuanu YMCA, in puunui. I have a special love for Kenpo, just because it is so much of a reflection of Hawaii in spirit and philosophy, but I think it is unfair to compare it to hapkido. Hapkido is not korean kenpo, although it may someday get to that point.


----------



## mastercole

MJS said:


> Personally, I'm not a high kicker.  IMO, there're good targets chest level and below.  If you want to kick someone in the head, kick 'em in the balls first, then the head, when they lean over...lol.  Seriously though....if someone finds value in high kicks, thats great.



I don't think he was talking about high kicks, I think it was kicks in general.


----------



## MJS

puunui said:


> Kenpo is a little different though, at least the ones which find their lineage through Professor Mitose and/or Professor Chow. Under that lineage, there is almost no consistency that I can see, other than perhaps the shoulder checking or "cover" motion, and the hawaiian spirit of aloha blended in. My uncle studied with Professor Chow in the 1950's (he's in those photos in volume one of the Infinite series) and when I showed him what Professor Chow was doing in the early 1980's when I studied with him, he didn't recognize too much. My uncle and my family both lived about one mile from both Palama Settlement and Nuuanu YMCA, in puunui. I have a special love for Kenpo, just because it is so much of a reflection of Hawaii in spirit and philosophy, but I think it is unfair to compare it to hapkido. Hapkido is not korean kenpo, although it may someday get to that point.



My point was simply that you have Larry Tatum, Ron "Doc" Chapel, Joe Palanzo, Huk Planas, Jeff Speakman and Paul Mills, all of whom teach Kenpo.  Yet were you to watch each of them, you're bound to see similarities, but you're also going to see alot of differences.  Does every single Hapkido branch do their stuff the same?  I'm asking because I don't know.  Yes, I'm aware that Hapkido and Kenpo are 2 different arts.


----------



## MJS

puunui said:


> But the differences are not so great that a hapkido practitioner cannot recognize another hapkido practitioner, as opposed to someone who has studied some other joint lock or throwing art, tried to add some kicks, and calling that hapkido. So even though GM Pellegrini has chosen to not include certain things, what has been retained is recognizable has hapkido.



Ok, this just answered my question that I asked in the last post I made to you.  So, yes, there will be differences, but not so drastic.  Just like the Kenpo example I used.  So, if I'm reading this right, what GMP is doing, is pretty similar to actual Hapkido.


----------



## MJS

mastercole said:


> I don't think he was talking about high kicks, I think it was kicks in general.



Well, I was talking about high kicks.  I believe GMPs Combat Hapkido has kicks in it, just not the ones that a more traditional brand of Hapkido would include, ie: the jumping, spinning kicks.


----------



## puunui

MJS said:


> My point was simply that you have Larry Tatum, Ron "Doc" Chapel, Joe Palanzo, Huk Planas, Jeff Speakman and Paul Mills, all of whom teach Kenpo.  Yet were you to watch each of them, you're bound to see similarities, but you're also going to see alot of differences.



How about when you compare American Kenpo stylists to say, Kajukenbo or some of the styles in Hawaii? Do you see the same level of similarity? I compare Professor Chow's Kempo Karaho to EP Kenpo and I have a hard time seeing how they are related. 



MJS said:


> Does every single Hapkido branch do their stuff the same?  I'm asking because I don't know.  Yes, I'm aware that Hapkido and Kenpo are 2 different arts.



Of course not, but you can tell that they are still Hapkido. But with Kenpo, I see much more diversity and difference than any sort underlying theme, like I can with Hapkido. Perhaps my perspective is skewed with respect to Kenpo. I also think that GM Parker retained very little from Professor Chow's kenpo and/or Kajukenbo that he learned, and Professor Chow evolved away from what he was doing in the late 40's and 50's.  I also think you are comparing American Kenpo off shoots and I am comparing American Kenpo to the Kenpo that is here.


----------



## Chris Parker

puunui said:


> I understood what you said. What I said was that your comments were appropriate to help others understand what GM Seo did with respect to GM Pelligrini. Many people state that rank means nothing, but usually it comes from people who do not have rank and they are trying to justify their own position. But when someone like Hatsumi Sensei or GM Seo does it, when they say rank means nothing, they are doing it in the opposite way, that if all you want is rank, here it is, higher than you or anyone else thinks you "deserve", which only underlines the concept or philosophy that rank means nothing.



Actually, it's not Hatsumi saying that rank means nothing most of the time (although he has indicated similar things in a different context on occasion), it's the rest of the organisation... including the 15th Dans. But that's not the point....



puunui said:


> I realize that you probably think you are in a better position to understand asian based philosophy/culture in general and japanese philosophy/culture in particular better than I. Another poster mentioned my last name in an earlier post. If you googled my last name, you might discover how long the martial arts has been a part of my family, which may change your perspective. Or not.



No, I think I'm in a better position to understand and discuss Hatsumi's quotes and their context as I, you know, train in his arts, and have done for close to two decades. And it's the context that I've been discussing, as it kinda undermines the quote you used. 



puunui said:


> Over and above that, Hatsumi Sensei isn't the only teacher who does what was described in the quote. Others have done the same thing, the reason being, that the level in which they operate is so removed from concepts like dan rank or titles that it is virtually meaningless to them. There are other cultural considerations as well.



My point was that Hatsumi, and his unique "ranking" system, when being used to justify another persons ranking system, and give it some form of credibility is frankly like saying that Dunkin' Donuts say that your diet should include them, so there's support for the idea.


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> My point was that Hatsumi, and his unique "ranking" system, when being used to justify another persons ranking system, and give it some form of credibility is frankly like saying that Dunkin' Donuts say that your diet should include them, so there's support for the idea.



That's just the point, it's not that unique, and I don't get the Dunkin Donut analogy, but that's ok. I don't really want to argue about it. If you don't like me using Hatsumi Sensei's to make a point, even though you sort of admit the same, then fine.


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> No, I think I'm in a better position to understand and discuss Hatsumi's quotes and their context as I, you know, train in his arts, and have done for close to two decades. And it's the context that I've been discussing, as it kinda undermines the quote you used.



There are other quotes from that same book that explain further his concept of dan rank, but if people want to read it, they can buy his book. It's too long to type out. 

One thing. Whenever Hatsumi Sensei addresses his teacher, he always says "Takamatsu Sensei". I notice you simply address him by his last name. It reminds me of this short quote from that same book: "All those times I visited Takamatsu-sensei over those fifteen years, his wife always served me sake, but I never touched it. Now I tell this story to my students as they sip from a cup of sake I have served them."

I guess I could further explain it from a japanese or asian cultural perspective and how it relates to the GM Seo/GM Pelligrini situation as viewed/judged by others, but I am sure that through your training in bujinkan you will conclude that it is not relevant to the point I am making. Please accept my apology for even thinking that I understand japanese culture better than you do.


----------



## Chris Parker

Honestly, Glenn, you really don't want to get into this with me... what Hatsumi writes in his books and what the reality of the situation is is rather different, hence his actions and justifications/reasons not really being something to look to to add credibility to anothers similar actions. As far as my usage or non-usage of particular honorifics, there are reasons I do or don't use them in different situations, circumstances, and locations, but that's all completely beside the point here. If you want, though, you may want to check the particular relationships involved for your first clue.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

MJS said:


> One of the best answers I've got so far! Thank you!!!



And thank you for the kind words


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

MJS said:


> In the June issue of BB magazine there was a very interesting article about John Pellegrini and his brand of Hapkido. He goes on to explain what he does in his system and how its different from the more traditional Hapkido systems. In the magazines to come, there have been many articles submitted by people. Some of them are very supportive of his style while others seem to be very critical about what he has done to the art.
> 
> While I am not a student of Mr. Pellegrini or of Hapkido, I have attended a seminar put on by him at a local MA school. Not really knowing what to expect, I went anyway. I have to say that I was very impressed with what I saw. The material that he taught was IMO, pretty straight forward. He covered many defenses while standing as well as on the ground.
> 
> *My question is, what do the people on this forum think about Mr. Pellegrini and what he has done to the art? Was he wrong to take out some of the more traditional things such as the high kicks, kata, etc. or did he do a good thing*?
> 
> Mike


Regarding the removal of high kicks and a number of other things, I have read in many places that he did this because these were things that he himself couild not do or do particularly well. Whatever the reason, he has assembled a curriculum that is probably more appropriate for the majority of people simply want to learn an SD oriented art. I haven't watched his tapes; only Youtube clips here and there, so I do not have a very detailed view of CHKD. 

I do know that people who are not novices who value SD oriented material and who are not hapkidoin (and thus have no opinion on what GMP is doing to the art) seem to be positively disposed to what they see of CHKD.

Regarding kata, what kata? Hapkido does not traditionally have kata.  Well, not in the same way that karate or taekwondo does. I suspect that it has specific two person drills which would be 'kata,' but I think that what you mean by kata are solo forms (I understand that there are some HKD kwans that have solo forms, but that they are the exception and not the rule).  If he claims to have 'removed' this element, then it was never really there to remove, so there can be no value judgement here.

Regarding what he has done to the art, I think that he has put together a system which in which average people can attain proficiency, even if they are middle aged and have no MA experience. I consider his video learning to be a good supplement for an instructor, a nice suplement for students learning from an instructor, or a good means for traditional hapkidoin to learn his particular system, but I dislike that he offers it as a means for a complete beginner to learn and rank in his system. I suspect that you or I could pick up his videos, learn and rank in the material, and then meet and practice that material convincingly with other experienced MA-ist. But you are already experienced MA-ist and I have over four years of hapkido training, which is very different from a rank beginner trying to do the same thing. 

I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.



Hi Daniel,

Could you expand on this part of your post please.  I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think this is an area that needs an objective, in-depth look as it touches on GM P as a whole and seems to be a major part of the critism he receives.  Thank you.


----------



## MJS

puunui said:


> How about when you compare American Kenpo stylists to say, Kajukenbo or some of the styles in Hawaii? Do you see the same level of similarity? I compare Professor Chow's Kempo Karaho to EP Kenpo and I have a hard time seeing how they are related.



Like I said....there will be differences and similarities.  Of course, with Kaju, alot depends on which branch you're looking at.  But whatever the case, since we're using Kaju as part of the example....I have watched some clips of the Original Method, and as I said, see similar things, but again, there're differences too.  Things change, from person to person.  One thing I dont see in Kaju as much as I see in Kenpo, is more of what could be called slapping.  Kenpo has a habit of being called a 'slap art' by some, because really, when you look at certain people, thats what it looks like...lol.  I dont see that in Kaju.





> Of course not, but you can tell that they are still Hapkido. But with Kenpo, I see much more diversity and difference than any sort underlying theme, like I can with Hapkido. Perhaps my perspective is skewed with respect to Kenpo. I also think that GM Parker retained very little from Professor Chow's kenpo and/or Kajukenbo that he learned, and Professor Chow evolved away from what he was doing in the late 40's and 50's. I also think you are comparing American Kenpo off shoots and I am comparing American Kenpo to the Kenpo that is here.



The only off shoots would be Mills and Speakman.  They still do Kenpo, but watch Jeff do a Kenpo tech and watch Tatum do the same one.  You tell me what differences you see.  Actually, head over to the Kenpo section.  Take a look at the thread on Thundering Hammers.  Watch the differences.  They're quiet apparent.  As for what Parker did/did not retain...can't comment on that.  Never met the man unfortunately.  I will say this...the guy that I train Kenpo with now moves 1000 times better than alot of the other Kenpo inst. I've trained under.


----------



## MJS

Excellent!  Helpful answer #2!!  Way to go Dan! 




Daniel Sullivan said:


> Regarding the removal of high kicks and a number of other things, I have read in many places that he did this because these were things that he himself couild not do or do particularly well. Whatever the reason, he has assembled a curriculum that is probably more appropriate for the majority of people simply want to learn an SD oriented art. I haven't watched his tapes; only Youtube clips here and there, so I do not have a very detailed view of CHKD.
> 
> I do know that people who are not novices who value SD oriented material and who are not hapkidoin (and thus have no opinion on what GMP is doing to the art) seem to be positively disposed to what they see of CHKD.



You're probably right.  Hell, in Kenpo, there're things that I don't do particularly well, but I still teach those things, despite me questioning the practicality of them...lol.  OTOH, usually when I teach something that I personally dont care for, I tend to give the students a peek at what *I* like to do instead.  I tell them that its simply another option.  I dont like to craft robots, so I let them choose what works for them.  



> Regarding kata, what kata? Hapkido does not traditionally have kata. Well, not in the same way that karate or taekwondo does. I suspect that it has specific two person drills which would be 'kata,' but I think that what you mean by kata are solo forms (I understand that there are some HKD kwans that have solo forms, but that they are the exception and not the rule). If he claims to have 'removed' this element, then it was never really there to remove, so there can be no value judgement here.



Yeah, I was talking about the traditional empty hand kata that you see in most MA systems.  



> Regarding what he has done to the art, I think that he has put together a system which in which average people can attain proficiency, even if they are middle aged and have no MA experience. I consider his video learning to be a good supplement for an instructor, a nice suplement for students learning from an instructor, or a good means for traditional hapkidoin to learn his particular system, but I dislike that he offers it as a means for a complete beginner to learn and rank in his system. I suspect that you or I could pick up his videos, learn and rank in the material, and then meet and practice that material convincingly with other experienced MA-ist. But you are already experienced MA-ist and I have over four years of hapkido training, which is very different from a rank beginner trying to do the same thing.
> 
> I think that the rank gymnastics that he seems to have engaged in in order to legitamize himself as a grandmaster were not only unnecessary, but frankly, they cheapen both hapkido in general and his own system in particular. The latter more so than the former.



Yeah, I'm not a fan of the learn by dvd system either, but thats another thread...lol.  Yes, I probably could watch and learn, as you could.  Now that I think about it, I met a Hapkido guy at the last Arnis Summer camp we had in CT.  He's actually a member of this forum, but he doesnt post much.  I should've picked his brain a bit during the camp.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Hi Daniel,
> 
> Could you expand on this part of your post please. I'm not saying you're wrong, but I think this is an area that needs an objective, in-depth look as it touches on GM P as a whole and seems to be a major part of the critism he receives. Thank you.


Going from new HKD practitioner to grandmaster in roughly ten years is what I am refering to. He was ranked by other people, so he can say that he didn't give himself the rank, and with ten years in HKD and twenty years in his own system, the point really is moot.... except that people will use his rapid rise in grade to undermine his qualifications and therefore to undermine his system, which prevents the system from being evaluated soley on its own merit. Which is why I feel that it cheapens his system.

It cheapens hapkido as a whole simply by virtue of being another high grade being issued to someone who's qualifications for said grade are considered questionable and the promotions apparently have the appearance of being monetarilly driven. I have no opinion of him aside from that he was very pleasant on the phone and seems to be genuinely interested in helping people who are looking for the sort of thing that he offers.

As for whether or not he should have the rank he holds, it is irrelevant. He has the rank and heads his own organization, and both have been the case now for over twenty years. To those who want to quibble about his rank, I say the following: 

*Get over yourselves and move on*. There nothing good to be gained for either yourselves or for hapkido as an art by dwelling on negative thoughts about GMP. You're obviously happy doing what you are doing and his rank isn't going anywhere. If you are concerned that he is reaching people that you are not, then take the high road and promote as aggressively as he does. If you are not willing to do this, then you should ask yourself why rather than complain about the fact that he does.  

If you want to have the taller building, don't tear down the other guy's building, but be willing to build your building taller.  Because tearing his building down doesn't make your own building any taller.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Going from new HKD practitioner to grandmaster in roughly ten years is what I am refering to. He was ranked by other people, so he can say that he didn't give himself the rank, and with ten years in HKD and twenty years in his own system, the point really is moot.... except that people will use his rapid rise in grade to undermine his qualifications and therefore to undermine his system, which prevents the system from being evaluated soley on its own merit. Which is why I feel that it cheapens his system.
> 
> It cheapens hapkido as a whole simply by virtue of being another high grade being issued to someone who's qualifications for said grade are considered questionable and the promotions apparently have the appearance of being monetarilly driven. I have no opinion of him aside from that he was very pleasant on the phone and seems to be genuinely interested in helping people who are looking for the sort of thing that he offers.
> 
> As for whether or not he should have the rank he holds, it is irrelevant. He has the rank and heads his own organization, and both have been the case now for over twenty years. To those who want to quibble about his rank, I say the following:
> 
> *Get over yourselves and move on*. There nothing good to be gained for either yourselves or for hapkido as an art by dwelling on negative thoughts about GMP. You're obviously happy doing what you are doing and his rank isn't going anywhere. If you are concerned that he is reaching people that you are not, then take the high road and promote as aggressively as he does. If you are not willing to do this, then you should ask yourself why rather than complain about the fact that he does.
> 
> If you want to have the taller building, don't tear down the other guy's building, but be willing to build your building taller. Because tearing his building down doesn't make your own building any taller.



Very well put, thank you for expounding.  

This is the perspective I keep thinking about;  According to several seniors in Hapkido (Mike Wollmeershauer, Hal Whalen, Michael Tomlinson, Ian Cyrus, Kevin Sogar etc), John Pellegrini was promoted to 1st and/or 2nd by Mike Wollmeershauer in or around 1990.  Depending on who you read, it was either an honorary Dan or a 'real' Dan.  I'm not sure why an honorary Dan would be issued, if indeed it was?  I can see special circumstances for an honorary Dan being issued.  I don't remember the name off the top of my head, but the KKW issued an honorary 10th Dan to someone on the Olympic committee due to their contribution to the art of TKD.  I have no issue with this.  I've seen honorary Dans issued to people that were ill/terminally ill.  I have no issue with this.  So if the 1st and/or 2nd was honorary...what was the special reason?  If they were 'real' then we have two possibilities really;  John Pellegrini passed whatever requirements were needed for the promotion(s) or they were 'given' (for money or charity?).  Either he earned them or he didn't.  If he earned them then he's as much a Hapkido BB as anyone here according to the requirements set by Mike Wollmeershauer.  If he didn't have the skills necessary then the question is...why was he given the rank in the first place?  If he then skipped around a bit by org-shopping we need to come to terms with the rank he earned (was given?) was then accepted by those organizations in question.  Apparently GM Myung did indeed rank John Pellegrini (from 4th to 6th depending on who your listening to concerning the WHF)  Whatever the rank was, it looks like GM Myung did indeed rank him to master status (at least).  So again, we have a choice to make; John Pellegrini was worthy of master rank in Hapkido in the eyes of GM Myung (passing whatever requirements were necessary for whatever rank he granted to him)...or GM Myung and the WHF granted master status to someone that didn't earn it.  Some say for money?  I don't know and it is a moot point now.  But those are the two choices realistically available. 

Either he earned it or he didn't.  If he didn't earn it, he either paid for it or was 'given' it which means those issuing the rank either sold him the rank or degraded the art by issuing BB and/or master status to someone that hadn't earned it.  That's what it boils down to on this issue.  Regardless of what actually happened, he is now the GM of his own system/art.  Those responsible for this happening should back him up completely as they enabled him to get there...or they should be explaining just exactly what happened and why and take responsibility for it.

I'm not saying it was one way or the other.  Nor am I casting dispersions on anyone mentioned above.  I'm just pointing out that in all likelyhood it is either option A or option B.  I can't see option C but I'm open to looking at it if someone has it.

With respect.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Very well put, thank you for expounding.
> 
> This is the perspective I keep thinking about; According to several seniors in Hapkido (Mike Wollmeershauer, Hal Whalen, Michael Tomlinson, Ian Cyrus, Kevin Sogar etc), John Pellegrini was promoted to 1st and/or 2nd by Mike Wollmeershauer in or around 1990. Depending on who you read, it was either an honorary Dan or a 'real' Dan. I'm not sure why an honorary Dan would be issued, if indeed it was? I can see special circumstances for an honorary Dan being issued. I don't remember the name off the top of my head, but the KKW issued an honorary 10th Dan to someone on the Olympic committee due to their contribution to the art of TKD. I have no issue with this. I've seen honorary Dans issued to people that were ill/terminally ill. I have no issue with this. So if the 1st and/or 2nd was honorary...what was the special reason? If they were 'real' then we have two possibilities really; John Pellegrini passed whatever requirements were needed for the promotion(s) or they were 'given' (for money or charity?). Either he earned them or he didn't. If he earned them then he's as much a Hapkido BB as anyone here according to the requirements set by Mike Wollmeershauer. If he didn't have the skills necessary then the question is...why was he given the rank in the first place?


Given that a first dan is a beginning dan, it isn't even worth discussing.  Honorary dans are given for a variety of reasons.  The Kukkiwon issued an honorary first dan to President Obama.  Ed Parker issued an honorary 8th dan to Elvis Presley.  The IOC member you mention is Ron or Rob and I cannot remember his last name.  He was instrumental in taekwondo becomming an Olympic event.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If he then skipped around a bit by org-shopping we need to come to terms with the rank he earned (was given?) was then accepted by those organizations in question. Apparently GM Myung did indeed rank John Pellegrini (from 4th to 6th depending on who your listening to concerning the WHF) Whatever the rank was, it looks like GM Myung did indeed rank him to master status (at least). So again, we have a choice to make; John Pellegrini was worthy of master rank in Hapkido in the eyes of GM Myung (passing whatever requirements were necessary for whatever rank he granted to him)...or GM Myung and the WHF granted master status to someone that didn't earn it. Some say for money? I don't know and it is a moot point now. But those are the two choices realistically available.


So who brought him up to fourth?  Why did Myung skip him from fourth to sixth?  Or did he promote him first to fifth?  And who promoted him to seventh and eighth?  Or was he skipped directly from sixth to ninth?  Or did he go from first to sixth to ninth?  If I were a CHKD historian, I would really want to know.  But I'm not, so I will leave it to minds who care about such things to hash it out.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Either he earned it or he didn't. If he didn't earn it, he either paid for it or was 'given' it which means those issuing the rank either sold him the rank or degraded the art by issuing BB and/or master status to someone that hadn't earned it. That's what it boils down to on this issue. Regardless of what actually happened, he is now the GM of his own system/art. Those responsible for this happening should back him up completely as they enabled him to get there...or they should be explaining just exactly what happened and why and take responsibility for it.
> 
> I'm not saying it was one way or the other. Nor am I casting dispersions on anyone mentioned above. I'm just pointing out that in all likelyhood it is either option A or option B. I can't see option C but I'm open to looking at it if someone has it.
> 
> With respect.


You earn the skills that you have.  Some people may reward you with rank along the way.  You cannot teach what you don't know.  If GMP put together his system on his own and created the marketing scheme, then he is very good at organizing and promoting.  He is also apparently good at running an organization.  Not everyone has these skills.

He has an organization and a system that serves his customer base.  I play with swords and wish him the best.


----------



## dancingalone

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The IOC member you mention is Ron or Rob and I cannot remember his last name.  He was instrumental in taekwondo becomming an Olympic event.



I think that was Juan Antonio Samaranch, http://<a href=&quot;[url]http://en...wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch</a>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch.  Reading his wikipedia article, it seems like he was awarded a peerage and a bunch of other recognitions by various national governments as well.


----------



## puunui

Chris Parker said:


> Honestly, Glenn, you really don't want to get into this with me...



You're right, I don't want to get into this with you. Thank you for understanding. 




Chris Parker said:


> what Hatsumi writes in his books and what the reality of the situation is is rather different, hence his actions and justifications/reasons not really being something to look to to add credibility to anothers similar actions.



Ok, so a punch isn't a punch and a kick isn't a kick. Got it. 




Chris Parker said:


> As far as my usage or non-usage of particular honorifics, there are reasons I do or don't use them in different situations, circumstances, and locations, but that's all completely beside the point here.



From an asian or japanese cultural perspective, I was taught to always use honorifics or titles towards your teachers and seniors. But that's just me and apparently it is the same for Hatsumi Sensei, since he stills addresses his teacher as Takamatsu Sensei even though he had passed away years ago. Sometimes in samurai shows and they will address another person by their first name only. It isn't meant as a term of disrespect, but something else. Back in the day, everyone knows who you are referring to if someone said "Ieyasu" or "Nobunaga" or "Shingen". Similarly, if you say "glenn", pretty much people know who you are talking about. But you do something different, you call people by their last names only, depending on the situation, circumstance or location, no doubt because this is what you were taught or developed on your own. 




Chris Parker said:


> If you want, though, you may want to check the particular relationships involved for your first clue.



No, I don't want, but thanks for the suggestion.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Given that a first dan is a beginning dan, it isn't even worth discussing.



The only reason I bring it up is that several people have verified that he was in fact issued (given?) and first and/or second Dan in Hapkido.  So we can safety assume he didn't just use his printer and make it up.  



> So who brought him up to fourth? Why did Myung skip him from fourth to sixth? Or did he promote him first to fifth? And who promoted him to seventh and eighth? Or was he skipped directly from sixth to ninth? Or did he go from first to sixth to ninth? *If I were a CHKD historian, I would really want to know.*



In reference to the part of your quote I put in bold, that would be a very reasonable request.  As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy.  But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th.  I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, simply reading what those other individuals stated that were closer to the actual happenings.  So, if this is indeed the facts of the matter then he was promoted to some level of master status in Hapkido by a recognized Hapkido senior.  If that's the case (?) then it would be hard to say anything negative against John Pellegrini without looking towards those that allowed him to that position.  

His rank above what GM Myung (or others?) promoted him to?  I don't know as it seems fuzzy.  It seems that the GM Seo did the GM thing?  At any rate, like you've stated, it is what it is and it has been that way now for around 20 years.  

Did make for a long running thread though


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy.  But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th.




It isn't fuzzy. You said GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan. I said that was incorrect. You said you would check with ironox, since he was your source of information, and ironox declined to confirm the 6th Dan. Where is the fuzziness? GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> It isn't fuzzy. You said GM Myung promoted GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan. I said that was incorrect. You said you would check with ironox, since he was your source of information, and ironox declined to confirm the 6th Dan. Where is the fuzziness? GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan.



No, it is very fuzzy.  Or we can use the word 'nebulous' if you prefer, or any word that describes a situation that isn't fully established with factual particulars.  On page 2 of this thread I indicated that a fellow MT member had made the statement that GM Myung had promoted John Pellegrini to 6th Dan and then provided a link.  On page 6 of this thread, post #82 that member (Iron Ox) posted numerous statements from other senior Hapkidoin.  Michael Tomlinson places John Pellegrino at 5th under GM Myung.  GM Whalen does place John Pellegrino under GM Myung as well and relays some information that he witness first hand.  So the 'fuzzy part' pertains to the actual number of the Dan grade.  What appears to be factual, according to many that were there (or discussed the matter with those that were there) is that GM Myung promoted John Pellegrino to master status in Hapkido.  If you disagree, I would suggest taking the matter directly to those individuals that made the statments.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

dancingalone said:


> I think that was Juan Antonio Samaranch, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Juan_Antonio_Samaranch.  Reading his wikipedia article, it seems like he was awarded a peerage and a bunch of other recognitions by various national governments as well.


Yes, that was him.  I don't know where I got Rob or Ron.  

Thanks!


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> The only reason I bring it up is that several people have verified that he was in fact issued (given?) and first and/or second Dan in Hapkido.  So we can safety assume he didn't just use his printer and make it up.


Making it up is the one thing that nobody has accused him of.  I suspect that he went to pains to obtain rank from others specifically to avoid this.

The reason that I feel that it is not worth discussing is because at first dan, you are still very much just a beginner, so the idea that his first dan is some grossly undeserved or some kind of rank buy is, as I said, not worth discussing.  The only thing that I consider worth discussing is when it was issued in relation to when his gudan was issued.  

Except that there's nothing to discuss.  He got his first dan in the early eighties and his gudan roughly a decade later and established CHKD shortly afterward and has been GM of CHKD for the past twenty years.  I'm far less interested at this point in what happened between 1979 and 1992 than I am in how he comports himself as the head of his own system and how well his organization takes care of its members.  From what I understand, his members are very pleased with him as an organizational head.



Kong Soo Do said:


> In reference to the part of your quote I put in bold, that would be a very reasonable request.  As far as exactly how high GM Myung promoted him, to me it seems fuzzy.  But according to what has been presented in this thread from several Hapkido seniors, it would appear to be between 4th and 6th.  I'm not going to be dogmatic about it, simply reading what those other individuals stated that were closer to the actual happenings.  So, if this is indeed the facts of the matter then he was promoted to some level of master status in Hapkido by a recognized Hapkido senior.  If that's the case (?) *then it would be hard to say anything negative against John Pellegrini without looking towards those that allowed him to that position.*


Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier.  You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him.  Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors.  And those who say such things know it.  I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing.  Whether or not it is appropriate or what not is something that I will let others here hash out.

Look, organizations promote people for all kinds of reasons.  It could be that he ran his concept by Seo and Seo thought it was an incredibly good idea and wanted to help him get it going.  In doing so, his organization would be friendly with Pellegrini's and mutual respect between them is something that Seo may have felt would be beneficial to both organizations.  Perhaps he simply wanted to show support for the fledgling organization for the purpose of promoting the martial arts.  

Whatever.  Twenty years down the pike, the only thing that matters is how good GMP is at running his organization.  By the looks of it, video learning not withstanding, he seems to be motivated primarily by the desire to promote the arts and to do right by his membership.  I wish him well.  



Kong Soo Do said:


> His rank above what GM Myung (or others?) promoted him to?  I don't know as it seems fuzzy.  *It seems that the GM Seo did the GM thing?*


From the mouth of GMP himself, yes.



Kong Soo Do said:


> At any rate, like you've stated, it is what it is and it has been that way now for around 20 years.


Based on my conversation with him on first hand accounts of seminars from people that I know and have trained with, I would look forward to training with him if I had the opportunity.  He was very decent to me in our conversation and people that I know who have attended his seminars said that working with him was a very positive experience and they learned a lot.

It all sounds good to me.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> No, it is very fuzzy.  Or we can use the word 'nebulous' if you prefer, or any word that describes a situation that isn't fully established with factual particulars.



I would say that for you, it is fuzzy, since you are getting all these conflicting reports. What isn't fuzzy is that GM Pelligrini was NOT promoted to 6th Dan by GM Myung, because the person you cited has since deferred to others with more personal knowledge. GM Pellegrini's promotions through GM Seo is also fuzzy for you, but not me. Every time GM Pellegrini was promoted by GM Seo, there was mention of it in Taekwondo Times, most times complete with photo.


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier.  You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him.  Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors.  And those who say such things know it.  I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing.



I realize that Parker Sensei may disagree, but there is a very detailed explanation given by Hatsumi Sensei on promotions within his organization which is applicable to the present discussion. I believe there have been students who have gone from white belt or beginner to 10th Dan in his system in two or three years. In his book, which is basically a long interview conducted by Sensei Stephen Hayes, Hatsumi Sensei explains why he does it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

puunui said:


> What isn't fuzzy is that GM Pelligrini was NOT promoted to 6th Dan by GM Myung, because the person you cited has since deferred to others with more personal knowledge.



Apparenlty he made it to at least 5th under GM Myung.  Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point.  I can't make it any clearer for you than I have.  At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding.  If and when you're ready you'll understand.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The only thing that I consider worth discussing is when it was issued in relation to when his gudan was issued.



It would appear that who issued what is fairly well established from those close to the source(s).  



> I'm far less interested at this point in what happened between 1979 and 1992 than I am in how he comports himself as the head of his own system and how well his organization takes care of its members. From what I understand, his members are very pleased with him as an organizational head.



Agreed.



> Which brings us to the senior bashing that Glenn had mentioned earlier. You can't blast his promotion without blasting the people who promoted him. Saying he bought rank says that he was sold rank by those seniors. And those who say such things know it. I'm not criticizing them for it, but they know what they are doing. Whether or not it is appropriate or what not is something that I will let others here hash out.



This is what I've been saying.  Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make.  If John P. earned his ranks, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it.  If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider.  As mentioned multiple times, it is a moot point at this juncture.



> Look, organizations promote people for all kinds of reasons. It could be that he ran his concept by Seo and Seo thought it was an incredibly good idea and wanted to help him get it going. In doing so, his organization would be friendly with Pellegrini's and mutual respect between them is something that Seo may have felt would be beneficial to both organizations. Perhaps he simply wanted to show support for the fledgling organization for the purpose of promoting the martial arts.



That would be a very honorable thing.  



> Based on my conversation with him on first hand accounts of seminars from people that I know and have trained with, I would look forward to training with him if I had the opportunity. He was very decent to me in our conversation and people that I know who have attended his seminars said that working with him was a very positive experience and they learned a lot.
> 
> It all sounds good to me.



Sounds good to me as well.  Perhaps it is time to put the thread to bed on J.P.?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is what I've been saying. Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make. If John P. *earned his ranks*, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it.


Once again, skills are earned. Rank is issued and responsibility is assigned or taken on. 

Not all officers enlist and go through the ranks of private, corporal, or sargeant. Some go to officers school and graduate as officers. Corporate officers and CEOs do not get to their position very frequently by starting out in the mail room or even for being exceptionally good at the company's primary business. The CEO of Red Lobster, for example, probably wasn't a lobsterman and certainly wasn't required to work all of the restaurant positions in order to climb the corporate ladder. He or she was probably brought in from somewhere on the basis of business accumen and probably got started by going to business school. 

I remember when Radio Shack brought in Len Roberts as the new president back in the late eighties/early ninties. He came from Shoneys and had no background in electronics at all. As I recall, he did a good job. I left when he was still president (perhaps he still is) so I have no idea what Radio Shack thinks of him now.

The reason that officers in the military are not always former grunts and that the corporate head of Harley Davidson probably didn't start off as a motorcycle mechanic is because the skills needed to be an officer or a corporate head are unrelated to the skills needed for being in the trenches or on the front line. 

I strongly suspect that there was never any point in his life that Cus D'Amato could have ever beaten Mike Tyson in his competitive years. But he was able to coach Mike Tyson and train him to become a champion. And most of the best football coaches are not former superstar athletes. But they can coach a team of superstar athletes and coordinate their efforts so that the team succeeds on the field.



Kong Soo Do said:


> If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider. As mentioned multiple times, it is a moot point at this juncture.


What, that he bought his rank? Actually, there are several options to consider. Again, the ability to put together a system and an organization are a different skill set than those of being a hotshot on the mat. Asking a tournament champion to systematize the technical elements of a martial art and to put together an organization to spread that art will, in most cases, yield less than satisfactory results. 

GMP's skills as an organizational head and as the founder of his system are a separate skill set from those of being an exceptional MA-ist. Which is why I prefer to judge the man based on the quality of his system and of his organization.

As I said, his rank isn't going anywhere. Chances are, his organization will outlive him. So how good is the organization and how good is the system? 

If you don't like that he called it hapkido, get over it. He's not changing the name. I'm sure that Ferrari drivers had the same complaint about the Pontiac GTO. Perhaps if you wait long enough, the CHKD organization will go the way of Pontiac. But be perpared for a long wait; Pontiac was around for over eighty years.

To be clear, lest anyone think that I am giving approval to the kind of rank gymnastics that it seems that GMP and his senior engaged in, I am not. I feel that such rapid promotions *always* cause friction and undermine the efforts of those who receive such promotions. The only people who care about how quickly you were promoted and to what rank are other MA-ists. Your students will not care, particularly if your system is decent. Nobody cared what rank Bruce Lee was. Nobody cared what rank Funakoshi was either (it was fifth dan, in case you were wondering). Nobody cared what rank Choi Yong Sul was for that matter. And I suspect that GMP is smart enough that he could have accomplished everything that he has with CHKD even without a grandmaster rank.

Rank inflation has been an issue in the martial arts for decades. There is no good reason to undermine what you do by engaging in it. So don't do it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If you don't like that he called it hapkido, get over it. He's not changing the name.



I hope that was a general comment and not directed at me, because I've never stated I have an issue with GM P.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> Apparenlty he made it to at least 5th under GM Myung.


Did he?



Kong Soo Do said:


> Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on *something that is very minor *you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.


If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor.   I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. * If *he did *not* promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did _could_ be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank.  I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it.  I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet. 

And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway.  You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> I hope that was a general comment and not directed at me, because I've never stated I have an issue with GM P.


General comment.  Much of what is in that post is meant in general.  I am aware that you have no issue with GMP.  Puts on both on the same page here, as I do not either.


----------



## iron_ox

Hello all,

I'm not going to quote the whole blurb...

TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.

"...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to *fifth* dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"

There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.  

TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.

April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.

Frankly, having seen what he does, I wished he called it something else...

Of course the issuers of the higher rank should be scrutinized...why those ranks were ever conferred is anyone's guess. If we look at the last, highest ranks, I am under the assumption that the "organization" (World Ki-do, or Hanminjok) conferred them as there is no one in the organization ranked highly enough in Hapkido to issues such rank.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Did he?



According to those with more time in Hapkido that both of us, yes. Should it be an issue (minor or major), not as far as I'm concerned. 



> And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.



Incorrect, which is why I made the statement I made and stand by it. 

With respect.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> General comment. Much of what is in that post is meant in general. I am aware that you have no issue with GMP. Puts on both on the same page here, as I do not either.



Sounds good, just wanted to clarify, thank you.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Did he?
> 
> 
> If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor.   I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. * If *he did *not* promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did _could_ be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank.  I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it.  I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet.




DO you not understand the implication of inflated rank and the potential to be teaching inferior material? And libel?  Come on Daniel, are you kidding?  



Daniel Sullivan said:


> And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway.  You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.



And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin - someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question!  The organizations that issued the rank SHOULD be held accountable - in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.


----------



## iron_ox

MJS said:


> Well, I was talking about high kicks.  I believe GMPs Combat Hapkido has kicks in it, just not the ones that a more traditional brand of Hapkido would include, ie: the jumping, spinning kicks.



"Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks.  Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.


----------



## MJS

iron_ox said:


> "Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks. Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.



Ahh...ok.  Thank you for clarifying that.   So, I take it that the Hapkido that you teach, is as you described above?


----------



## MJS

Actually, after taking a look at your site (which is very nice BTW ) I found the answer to my question.   Its good to see that there're still some traditional schools out there, that adhere to the 'old school' way of things, instead of watering things down.


----------



## oftheherd1

iron_ox said:


> "Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks. Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.



I have mentioned before that my limited TKD experience is from the mid-60s under Jhoon Goo Rhee, and only about 12 months.  But we didn't have such high kicks as are now common.  At least not at the level we were.  We had only one black belt, and several brown belts, with the rest of us below.  

We were astounded one evening when Mr. Rhee was sparring against a rather too exhuberent but very athletic white belt.  He delivered a side hook kick to the white belt's solar plexus.  We had never seen that before and didn't know what had happened.  

Things like a high heel down kick (axe kick?), inside/outside face kick, or spin kicks were not being taught.  I suspect Mr. Rhee and others of higher rank knew them, but we weren't being taught them.  I don't recall that we were taught a 'face kick' using the upper instep of the kicking foot.  We had high kicks to the head, but basically roundhouse and side kick.  Granted, nearly 50 years may have dulled my memories of what was being taught.

When I started Hapkido, I was surprised at the number of kicks we were being taught.  Some of them were indeed high kicks.  But I frankly consided them as much limbering exercises as practical, until one day I saw a Korean TKD contestant at the Western Asian Games (about 1987), using heel down kicks to score two points.  His opponent had apparently never seen nor defended those kicks either.

All that said, my GM told me several tiimes that the Korean Hapkido GMs and Masters generally preferred mid to low kicks as more effective.  They were quite powerful, and could be delivered much more quickly.  I think that is even more true as we get older.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> According to those with more time in Hapkido that both of us, yes. Should it be an issue (minor or major), not as far as I'm concerned.





Iron Ox said:


> Well, this pretty much cements it in my opinion:
> 
> TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.
> 
> "...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to *fifth* dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"
> 
> There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.
> 
> TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.
> 
> April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.





Kong Soo Do said:


> Incorrect, which is why I made the statement I made and stand by it.
> 
> With respect.


What is incorrect?  That you aren't a hapkidoist?  That you should avoid pressing the issue because you arent?  Or that it you cosnider it a minor point?  Or that hapkido is just a label?

If you practice hapkido, then very cool!  I was not aware.  

Do you practice hapkido as hapkido or do you practice techniques that have been culled from hapkido and grafted onto your KSD?  No value judgement, but if you do the latter then I do not consider that to be practicing hapkido.  I ask, not because I don't believe you, but because I have had quite a few people say that they practice hapkido, but further into the discussion, I find out that that they simply learned some HKD techniques in conjunction with TKD.  They did, however, consider that to be practicing the art.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on something that is very minor you've missed the major point.  I can't make it any clearer for you than I have.  At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding.  If and when you're ready you'll understand.



I do understand that it was important or a major enough issue for you to write a post announcing that you sent an email to confirm the 6th Dan, and now that the truth and facts are out (GM Myung did not promote GM Pellegrini to 6th Dan), you are trying to downplay it by calling it "minor".


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> "Traditional" Hapkido, that is the art of Choi Yong Sul Dojunim, has never had high kicks.



What you describe isn't hapkido but rather yukwonsul or yusul. 




iron_ox said:


> Those were added years later by younger men in Seoul, far from Choi Dojunim's influence, partly, in my opinion, to be more attractive to new young students who saw much of the dynamic kicking in Taekwondo, as opposed to the rather combat effective but "boring looking" low line kicks of Traditional Hapkido.



The kicks of hapkido were not added in Seoul years later but were practiced in Taegu. The two people who are most credited with the hapkido kicks are GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong, both early students of GM Choi. GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum. As for why GM Ji and GM Kim added kicks, it was because kicking is a part of korean culture, and they both wanted to create an art that was uniquely Korean, which GM Choi approved of, even though he himself did not practice nor teach those kicks.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> The organizations that issued the rank SHOULD be held accountable - in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.



Why wouldn't the kidohae have no business issuing hapkido rank? After all, the kidohae was created by GM Choi and he was the first president/chair. GM Choi was also endorsed the Korea Hapkido Association, and by extension, its successor organizations. GM Choi was issuing KHA certificates that GM Ji printed for him, including to GM Lim.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...




Probably just a typo. There is a typo in the Modern History book, where it states that when GM LEE Kyo Yoon came back to Seoul he started teaching "Tang Soo Do" instead of another name. Rather than correct it, we felt that it was probably better to leave it the way it is and explain it afterwards. However, there are people out there who are now asserting that GM Lee taught Tang Soo Do based on that typo, and it is showing up on webpages, books, etc. Perhaps we should correct obvious typos like that, so that people don't run with it and end up getting confused. 

But I do think the 6th dan thing was probably a typo, and I wouldn't worry about it.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you practice hapkido as hapkido or do you practice techniques that have been culled from hapkido and grafted onto your KSD?



The Hapkido (and TKD) came well before we went with KSD.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> This is what I've been saying.  Only two realistic options exist and anyone interested in this topic has a simple choice to make.  If John P. earned his ranks, then those that ranked him should proudly say so as he has gone on to develop a successful system that is well received from those actually training in it.  If he didn't...well, then there is the other option for those folks to consider.



You might wish to broaden your perspective beyond your own, because if you do that, you might get to the actual facts. Starting from a conclusion is probably the worst way to investigate something. I prefer to take a more objective approach, seeing it how it really is, from the other person's perspective and culture, rather than seeing it wearing rose colored glasses tinted with my own perspective and culture only.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> DO you not understand the implication of inflated rank and the potential to be teaching inferior material?


While the two are not exclusive, one does not require the other. There is plenty of inferior matieral being taught by people without inflated rank. Perhaps the pioneers of most of Korean arts should have put better mechanisms into place to curb this sort of thing. The Kuk Sool Won guy did from what I understand, and I think that Hwarang Do guy did as well. If I'm not mistaken, they can go after you legally if you use the names of those arts without being ranked in them. 

And certainly, there were fakes and pretenders at the time HKD was founded. 



iron_ox said:


> And libel? Come on Daniel, are you kidding?


Firstly, my remark was neither directed at you nor was it meant to imply you. Secondly, people have been gone after legally for things that they post on internet forums about other people, so if the person to whom it was directed is going to keep saying 'such and such did thus and so,' which happens to be questionable, they really should be able to reference it to more than just an internet thread. 



iron_ox said:


> And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin


Claim to be. 



iron_ox said:


> - someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question!


If I am planning to train under someone, I will question them to death. Otherwise, they're just another place that I crossed off of the list. While I would look forward to participating in a CHKD seminar, I have no desire to train via video. Video teaching pretty much kills it for me, regardless of GMP's rank or who promoted him.



iron_ox said:


> The organizations that issued the rank *SHOULD be held accountable *- in particular when they have no business issuing rank in Hapkido in the first place.


Sure they should. By whom? The international MA regulatory commission? Doesn't exist, and since Korea doesn't have an equivalent to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, I guess it falls to the Kidohae. Apparently they gave GMP his rank. And apparently, they have no real power to hold anyone accountable or to prevent them using the name 'hapkido' in their art. 

So it isn't going to happen. GMP's rank isn't going anywhere. Myung Kwang Sik passed away in 2009, and Seo is KSW and unlikely to go and bust GMP back down to whatever he was prior to being promoted to GM.

Combat Hapkido is not going to be confused for hapkido and frankly, the guys looking to rank via video aren't concerned with whether or not GMP's rank was inflated. And like myself, video training pretty much kills if for anyone who is really interested in quality training. Those who are interested in video learning probably aren't going to be at all interested in what you or I are doing anyway. And there's an instant GM in any major art you can think of with DVD's out there just for those who think that you can learn martial arts from the TV.

Which is why I say that people need to get over it with regards to this guy unless they're willing to either out market him or actually try to bring him up on fraud charges. 

Perhaps all of the traditional or legitimate HKD GMs should get together and form an organization to define and register legitimate Hapkido kwans and to actually call BS on thsoe that they feel are not. 

But if they're not willing to do that, then how do you propose to hold such organizations accountable?


----------



## Kong Soo Do

iron_ox said:


> Hello all,
> 
> I'm not going to quote the whole blurb...
> 
> TKDT Sept 1992, Volume 12, Number 6, page 16.
> 
> "...First World Hapkido Federation Advanced Hapkido Camp...Master Pellegrini who was recently promoted to *fifth* dan by Grandmaster Kwang Sik Myung"
> 
> There is a picture, with them and Gunther Bauer, so it was a fifth dan...not sure why I thought sixth dan...still just as suspect as his first dan was in what 1989 or so, according to Master Mike Wollmershauser when we spoke.
> 
> TKDT Sept 1994, Volume 15, Number 1, Page 16.
> 
> April 16 - 17 1994 was the first World Ki do Federation seminar in Florida. Within three years, has Grandmaster Rank.
> 
> Frankly, having seen what he does, I wished he called it something else...
> 
> Of course the issuers of the higher rank should be scrutinized...why those ranks were ever conferred is anyone's guess. If we look at the last, highest ranks, I am under the assumption that the "organization" (World Ki-do, or Hanminjok) conferred them as there is no one in the organization ranked highly enough in Hapkido to issues such rank.



Appreciate the clarification sir.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

Kong Soo Do said:


> The Hapkido (and TKD) came well before we went with KSD.


Very cool.  Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.


----------



## puunui

Kong Soo Do said:


> Appreciate the clarification sir.




Funny, but I don't think I have ever addressed any of my teachers or seniors as "sir", and I have never heard my seniors using that term either. Calling my teachers and/or seniors "sir" would be like calling my parents or older siblings "sir". I know some families use that, but not mine.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

You can call me sir; I'm a knight!


----------



## puunui

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Very cool.  Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.



Hapkido is not just a label.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

puunui said:


> Hapkido is not just a label.


I know.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> And with respect, seriously, you claim to be a hapkidoin - someone that claims very high rank in Hapkido should be something you question!




Did you question GM Lim about his own hapkido promotions? We know his claim about starting hapkido training in 1965, and that he was promoted to 9th Dan (with one of GM Ji's certificates) by GM Choi in 1984, after GM Choi had suffered a stroke and stopped teaching for a number of years. Is 19 years, in your opinion, enough time to go from white belt to 9th Dan? Also, do you know if GM Lim has all his certificates from 1st through 9th, or did he skip any dan ranks? Just wondering because we always hear about GM Lim's 9th Dan, but never the circumstances upon which he received that.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Very cool. Though I still disagree about HKD being just a label.



That's okay, we can agree to disagree.  I enjoy talking with you regardless of whether we agree or not


----------



## miguksaram

Daniel Sullivan said:


> While the two are not exclusive, one does not require the other. There is plenty of inferior matieral being taught by people without inflated rank. Perhaps the pioneers of most of Korean arts should have put better mechanisms into place to curb this sort of thing. The Kuk Sool Won guy did from what I understand, and I think that Hwarang Do guy did as well. If I'm not mistaken, they can go after you legally if you use the names of those arts without being ranked in them.


Not entirely correct.  You have to have their permission to use their name and teach their art even if you are ranked in it as a black belt.  They went after an individual who was was ranked 4th Dan in Hwarangdo and taught the art, mixed with other arts, under an entirely different name.  However the WHRDA was pushing a lawsuit to stop him from even teaching the same forms....just an FYI...now back to the program.


----------



## iron_ox

Off Topic:



puunui said:


> What you describe isn't hapkido but rather yukwonsul or yusul.



No, it was Hapkido.  Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...




puunui said:


> The kicks of hapkido were not added in Seoul years later but were practiced in Taegu. The two people who are most credited with the hapkido kicks are GM JI Han Jae and GM KIM Moo Hong, both early students of GM Choi. GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into the curriculum. As for why GM Ji and GM Kim added kicks, it was because kicking is a part of korean culture, and they both wanted to create an art that was uniquely Korean, which GM Choi approved of, even though he himself did not practice nor teach those kicks.



No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang.  Only in Seoul.  But you can believe what you want...


----------



## iron_ox

MJS said:


> Ahh...ok.  Thank you for clarifying that.   So, I take it that the Hapkido that you teach, is as you described above?



Yes, I teach Hapkido...not a variant.


----------



## iron_ox

Kong Soo Do said:


> Appreciate the clarification sir.



Sorry my earlier number was incorrect.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> No, it was Hapkido.  Far before revisionist historians claimed they "invented" the name...



Was it? There are photos of dojang signs that prove otherwise. 




iron_ox said:


> No again, not according to the GM's I have spoken to from Daegu that were training at the end of the 1940's - the high kicks were never taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang.  Only in Seoul.  But you can believe what you want...



I was talking about the 1950's. GM SUH Bok Sup stated that GM KIM Moo Hong trained hard in kicks when GM Kim was an instructor at his dojang, during the 50's, in Taegu. 

Also, GM YOO Yong Woo (GM Ji's first student in Andong) stated that they trained "high kicks" in andong in 1956, which is before Seoul. 

Also, I never said the high kicks were taught or practiced in Choi Dojunim's dojang. What I said was "GM Choi knew exactly what GM Ji and GM Kim were doing and did not  object, complain or discourage them from practicing or adding that into  the curriculum." 

But you can believe what you want...


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Yes, I teach Hapkido...not a variant.



Correction, you teach yukwonsul, and call it hapkido.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

iron_ox said:


> Sorry my earlier number was incorrect.



Not a problem


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> Why wouldn't the kidohae have no business issuing hapkido rank?



Because the Seo/Suh Kidohae, or the "provincial" Kidohae as it is referred to in Korea is a Kuk Sool Won organization that was "assumed in the 1980's, it has nothing to do with Hapkido.



puunui said:


> After all, the kidohae was created by GM Choi and he was the first president/chair. GM Choi was also endorsed the Korea Hapkido Association, and by extension, its successor organizations.



Choi Dojunim had little or nothing to do with Seoul based, or Pusan based organizations decades before his death.



puunui said:


> GM Choi was issuing KHA certificates that GM Ji printed for him, including to GM Lim.



Now that is funny.  Wasn't he already out of the country by 1982?  And he had SUCH a close bond with Choi Dojunim that what he just forgot to come to the funeral?  Revisionism aside, it showed so much respect to make a claim to being the founder of Hapkido in the same issue of TKDT that the death of Choi Dojunim was announced.  Like claiming to be Choi Dojunim's senior student, or an assistant instructor at Choi Dojunim's dojang...all false.  There are too many people who were there and remember what happened for any of the revisionism to stand.


----------



## puunui

puunui said:


> Did you question GM Lim about his own hapkido promotions? We know his claim about starting hapkido training in 1965, and that he was promoted to 9th Dan (with one of GM Ji's certificates) by GM Choi in 1984, after GM Choi had suffered a stroke and stopped teaching for a number of years. Is 19 years, in your opinion, enough time to go from white belt to 9th Dan? Also, do you know if GM Lim has all his certificates from 1st through 9th, or did he skip any dan ranks? Just wondering because we always hear about GM Lim's 9th Dan, but never the circumstances upon which he received that.



GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.


----------



## iron_ox

OFF TOPIC!  (Again)




puunui said:


> GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.



Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing. But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week.  Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.

Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder??  I was just looking at the list...lets see...



Merrill Jung; 10th Dan - California - maybe 
Jurg Ziegler; 10th Dan - Switzerland - probably not 
Ken MacKenzie; 10th Dan - New Jersey - maybe 
Massan Ghorbani; 9th Dan - Ireland - probably not 
John Beluschak; 9th Dan - Pennsylvania - probably not 
Walter Hubmann; 9th Dan - Austria - Probably not 
Nicolas Tacchi; 9th Dan - France - Probably  not 
Rami Vainionpàà, 9th Dan - Finland - Probably  not 
Rafael Balbastre, 9th Dan - Spain - Probably not 
Yung T. Freda; 9th Dan - California - maybe 
Glenn H. Uesugi; 9th Dan - you - ?? 
Stuart Forrest; 9th Dan- California - maybe 
Ronny Dassen; 9th Dan - Belgium - Probably not 
Dr. Egil Fosslien; 9th Dan - Illinois - maybe 
Hank Shik-Shin; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe 
Ian Cyrus; 9th Dan - Pennsylvannia - maybe 
Larry Dorsey; 9th Dan - California - maybe 
Scott Yates; 9th Dan - New Jersey - maybe 
Geoff J. Booth; 9th Dan - Australia - Probably not 
John Godwin; 9th Dan - Delaware - maybe 
Jimmy Brown; 9th Dan - maybe 
Do any of these men have 18 years of daily training with Sin Moo's founder?  I don't know.


Sorry all, not going off topic again...


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Because the Seo/Suh Kidohae, or the "provincial" Kidohae as it is referred to in Korea is a Kuk Sool Won organization that was "assumed in the 1980's, it has nothing to do with Hapkido.



Have you told that to GM West and Dr. Kimm? And apparently it didn't bother GM Adams, since he claims to be a Kuk Sool Won member and calls his art Hapkido. Isn't he in your lineage? And by stating the above, doesn't that cut against your claim regarding your own Hapkido background and training? If they are not Hapkido, then neither are you, right? We won't even go into the Bob Miller thing. 




iron_ox said:


> Choi Dojunim had little or nothing to do with Seoul based, or Pusan based organizations decades before his death.



Still doesn't take away from the fact that he was a founding member of both organizations. 




iron_ox said:


> Now that is funny.  Wasn't he already out of the country by 1982?  And he had SUCH a close bond with Choi Dojunim that what he just forgot to come to the funeral?  Revisionism aside, it showed so much respect to make a claim to being the founder of Hapkido in the same issue of TKDT that the death of Choi Dojunim was announced.



No, GM Ji left Korea in 1984, not 1982. And I don't know what issue of TKDT you are talking about. Which issue is that? I will say that I was training with GM Ji when GM Choi passed away, and in fact I was the one who informed him of GM Choi's passing. 




iron_ox said:


> Like claiming to be Choi Dojunim's senior student, or an assistant instructor at Choi Dojunim's dojang...all false.  There are too many people who were there and remember what happened for any of the revisionism to stand.



I would say that GM Ji was "a" senior student of GM Choi's, and most probably did help with the teaching duties at GM Choi's dojang, like most black belts do. You claimed to have been an assistant instructor when you were a blue belt. But irrespective of that, I would say that GM Ji's role in promoting and popularizing hapkido is unquestioned, a popularity which I notice some hapkido practitioners happily use for their own benefit, while at the same time criticizing him, for whatever reason. Would you be even practicing hapkido if it weren't for GM Ji and his students, much less GM Seo and Kuk Sool Won?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - *lets say 18 years of daily training *(or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder??


Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan?  No value judgement on the answer.  Just curious.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Originally Posted by *Kong Soo Do*
> 
> Regardless, Glenn, because you're so focused on *something that is very minor *you've missed the major point. I can't make it any clearer for you than I have. At any rate, at this point it is inmaterial and not worth the effort to try to bring you to understanding. If and when you're ready you'll understand.
> 
> 
> 
> If GM Myung did not promote GMP to fifth or sixth dan, then I would not consider that to be something very minor. I don't think that you really know either, given that your only source is a discussion on an internet board. *If he did not promote GMP to 5th or 6th dan (or at all), then saying that he did could be considered libel, particularly if it is connected with accusations of the sale of rank. I have no idea if he did or not, so I'm not going to press it. I only know that other people's internet discussions and someone else's 'I guess' are not enough for me to spread negative comments about others on the internet.
> 
> And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway. You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.*



To be fair, Dave Schultz may not be a pure Hapkidoin, but, he did invent "Taekido" from what I understand, which might be a blend of Tae from Taekwondo, and Kido from Hapkido, does that count as a Hapkidoin?  Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.

If I did suddenly decide to invent a martial art I do a have a name in mind. I would like to call it "pabo-do."  The official organization name would be the "miguk pabo-do yunmeng" because I feel that would best represent where most of the members would come from.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> Why Choi Dojunim did anything he did I would only be guessing.



One thing you might want to guess about is why GM Choi continued to give out certificates which GM Ji made for him in the mid 1960's to students in the 80's. Do you think it was for convenience? And if so, do you think it was more convenient to start calling his art "Hapkido" instead of Yukwonsul, since after all, he was issuing those KHA certificates, which even has the old eagle logo used by the KHA in the 60's. GM Choi, like the rest of his senior students, was riding the wave of popularity that was created by GM Ji and his students in Korea during that time. 




iron_ox said:


> But Grandmaster Lim had many years or both public and private instruction, and trained with Choi Dojunim 6 days a week.  Including almost a decade when Choi Dojunim was teaching out of Grandmaster Lim's dojang.



GM Lim did not start his hapkido training directly with GM Choi. He started with someone else. And GM Choi had a stroke which incapacitated him some years prior to his death, so I don't know the quality of that later time, for your purposes. 




iron_ox said:


> Since this might clarify things for you, in your own mind, do ANY of the 9th or 10th dans in Sin Moo have a similar training history - lets say 18 years of daily training (or even 6 days a week) with Sin Moo's Founder??



Yes, his early students in Korea trained with him and stayed with him until they themselves left Korea. GM MYUNG Kwang Sik would be one such person as would be others of his generation. As for GM Ji's time in the US, the name that comes to mind is GM Yung Freda, who was there from the first month at Daly City. He has the most days with GM Ji than anyone of his non-korean born students.


----------



## mastercole

Daniel Sullivan said:


> And with respect (seriously, not sarcastically), you are not a hapkidoist so far as I know, so you should probably avoid pressing the issue on this, given that you really don't know and that you consider it to be a minor point anyway.  You should also avoid making statements such as, "hapkido is just a label" when do not train in the art.



could it be that some people like to ramble on and on and on about something they don't know anything about. Maybe attacking something real give them a feeling of legitimacy?  Or maybe it's in hopes that their ad nauseam attacks places them in a position of assumed expertise on the subject, a subject that they don't know anything about. We will probably never know.............


----------



## puunui

mastercole said:


> Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.




I never invented a style either, and most probably never will. Not my personality or mentality, especially when there is still so much to learn in the styles that I am already involved with. And I always wonder if I will entirely get it all in those styles. Probably not.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sure they should. By whom? The international MA regulatory commission? Doesn't exist, and since Korea doesn't have an equivalent to the Dai Nippon Butokukai, I guess it falls to the Kidohae. Apparently they gave GMP his rank. And apparently, they have no real power to hold anyone accountable or to prevent them using the name 'hapkido' in their art.



Hello Daniel,

They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish.  Plain and simple.


----------



## Kong Soo Do

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan?



This would make for an interesting thread to see how people respond and their justification for their reasoning.


----------



## MJS

mastercole said:


> To be fair, Dave Schultz may not be a pure Hapkidoin, but, he did invent "Taekido" from what I understand, which might be a blend of Tae from Taekwondo, and Kido from Hapkido, does that count as a Hapkidoin? Unlike Pelligrini and Schultz I never invented a style of martial arts so I am not sure what all that involves.
> 
> If I did suddenly decide to invent a martial art I do a have a name in mind. I would like to call it "pabo-do." The official organization name would be the "miguk pabo-do yunmeng" because I feel that would best represent where most of the members would come from.



Well, points taken, however, I'd like to keep talking about GMP.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish.  Plain and simple.




I can tell you GM Ji's response to that. There was once a Hapkido junior who did not study with GM Ji but called GM Ji and started to complain about one of his seniors who did train with GM Ji. After listening for about one minute, GM Ji asked where the junior got his training and who promoted the junior. The junior lied and said "Korea", at which point GM Ji told the junior that he should complain to Korea and hung up the phone. The junior never called back and has never been heard from since.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Do you feel that eighteen years warrants a ninth dan?  No value judgement on the answer.  Just curious.



If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call.  Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call.



And yet you freely judge others, including those in your own lineage. 




iron_ox said:


> Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.



Consistent how?


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> GM Lim was promoted to 9th Dan in 1983, not 1984. So it was eighteen years from white belt to 9th Dan, not nineteen. My mistake.



OK, must have been a typo huh?

You have a 9th Dan - do you have 18 years of direct day to day training with the Founder of Sin Moo?  12 years?  10 years? 5 years perhaps? How much day to day training do you have?  or have you been primarily a seminar student as you live now in Hawaii and i don't believe the founder of Sin Moo has ever resided there.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> Hello Daniel,
> 
> They should be held accountable by people in Hapkido that care about the art and want to see it flourish. Plain and simple.



How? Through negative press in the form of internet threads? There are probably thousands of such discussions going on. And the same people who gravitate towards what he offers will *still* gravitate towards what he offers _and_ call those saying negative things about GMP haters.

Personally, I think the facts can be stated and those with hears will hear: 

He was promted to first dan by GM Wolmerhauser with minimal time in the art in 1989.
He was promoted to fifth dan in (according to your post earlier) or around 1992 by Kwang Sik Myung
He began CHKD about the same year.
He was promoted to ninth dan in or around 1995 by GM Seo of the Kidohae.
The overwhelming majority of CHKD students (near as I can tell) train via video.
He goes to US Military bases and plays on the mat with servicemen.
He does seminars with law enforcement.
He does seminars to promote his art.
I think that that pretty much covers it.  Those who have eyes, let them read.  And I didn't have to say a single negative thing about the people who promoted him, him, his organization, or his system.  And at that point, my job is done.

If someone still wants to train in his system after knowing those eight items, then I wish them the very best and I hope that what he offers is what they are looking foor and is a good fit for them.  I would recommend that they talk to people who practice CHKD to see what they think of it and how the organization treats them, particularly with regards to whether or not it is a money pit (not saying nor implying that it is).  If the answers are satisfactory, then go for it.


You may feel that what he does has dire consequences for the art.  I haven't seen enough of his system to call it inferior, so I have no comment on that.  As far as rank inflation goes, started in 1989 and it is 2012 and he's a ninth dan GM.  He cannot go any higher.  He will one day pass on and his art will have either proven itself worthy and survive his passing or it will die out without his personality to drive it.  

If it dies out, hapkido will go on and will be better for the demise of CHKD.  If CHKD proves a worthy art and survives, then hapkido will be strengthened as well. 

That is my opinion at least.  I respect and understand if you do not feel the same way.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> How? Through negative press in the form of internet threads? There are probably thousands of such discussions going on. And the same people who gravitate towards what he offers will *still* gravitate towards what he offers _and_ call those saying negative things about GMP haters.
> 
> Personally, I think the facts can be stated and those with hears will hear:
> 
> He was promted to first dan by GM Wolmerhauser with minimal time in the art in 1989.
> He was promoted to fifth dan in (according to your post earlier) or around 1992 by Kwang Sik Myung
> He began CHKD about the same year.
> He was promoted to ninth dan in or around 1995 by GM Seo of the Kidohae.
> The overwhelming majority of CHKD students (near as I can tell) train via video.
> He goes to US Military bases and plays on the mat with servicemen.
> He does seminars with law enforcement.
> He does seminars to promote his art.
> I think that that pretty much covers it.  Those who have eyes, let them read.  And I didn't have to say a single negative thing about the people who promoted him, him, his organization, or his system.  And at that point, my job is done.
> 
> If someone still wants to train in his system after knowing those eight items, then I wish them the very best and I hope that what he offers is what they are looking foor and is a good fit for them.  I would recommend that they talk to people who practice CHKD to see what they think of it and how the organization treats them, particularly with regards to whether or not it is a money pit (not saying nor implying that it is).  If the answers are satisfactory, then go for it.
> 
> 
> You may feel that what he does has dire consequences for the art.  I haven't seen enough of his system to call it inferior, so I have no comment on that.  As far as rank inflation goes, started in 1989 and it is 2012 and he's a ninth dan GM.  He cannot go any higher.  He will one day pass on and his art will have either proven itself worthy and survive his passing or it will die out without his personality to drive it.
> 
> If it dies out, hapkido will go on and will be better for the demise of CHKD.  If CHKD proves a worthy art and survives, then hapkido will be strengthened as well.
> 
> That is my opinion at least.  I respect and understand if you do not feel the same way.



I appreciate your response.  We will have to agree to disagree I feel as I think it does matter about the rank issue.  We ave little to go by in Martial Arts in general except rank, we generally can't just go around hitting people in the head to prove a point about someone's skill, but I have seen that happen years ago.

I do respect your opinion, but think without placing some level of critical eye on this type of ranking in variants of the art, it is watered down tremendously.

Again, thank you for the response.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan

iron_ox said:


> If you are asking me, I will say again that it is not my place to make that call. Choi Dojunim stayed very consistent over the years with his gradings, in particular for a man that did not read or write.


Fair enough. As I said, whatever your answer, I make no value judgement. I know that in kendo, ninth dan is no longer possible to obtain, as the grade has been abolished by the ZNKR. Eighteen years from the very beginning would get you roughly to sixth dan. Different art, so different paradigm, I suppose. I have grown accustomed to the idea that getting to eighth dan is a lifelong persuit. In kendo, there is a physical grading and less than two percent of those who test pass from what I understand. These are not young testors either, as I think the minimum age for a hachidan is 46. So even if I had begun my kendo training forty years ago, I still would not be able to test for hachidan. 

From shodan, it is thirty one years to hachidan at a minimum. While there is not stipulated time from beginning to ikyu, there is a minimum of three months from ikyu to shodan. You can bet on an average of two to four years to shodan from rokyu, so you are looking at anywhere from thirty two to thirty five years from beginning to hachidan.  When kyudan was still an attainable grade, it would have been over years, as it is ten years from nana dan to hachidan, so you'd be looking at another decade after reaching hachidan.  That makes for forty one years from shodan to kyudan, more than double the time from ship geub to gudan in hapkdo.

When I hear eighteen years from white belt to ninth dan it makes me curious as to what the standards are. As I said, it is a different art from kendo, so I make no value judgements. It simply is a different perspective.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> OK, must have been a typo huh?
> 
> You have a 9th Dan - do you have 18 years of direct day to day training with the Founder of Sin Moo?  12 years?  10 years? 5 years perhaps? How much day to day training do you have?  or have you been primarily a seminar student as you live now in Hawaii and i don't believe the founder of Sin Moo has ever resided there.




Back in the 80s, I was practicing Hapkido here and was applying to grad schools. I asked my instructor who his teacher was, and he gave me his lineage, through GM Ji. Then, almost immediately after that conversation, I saw a cover story in Black Belt magazine that GM Ji had moved to the US. I showed that article to my hapkido teacher, and he strongly encouraged me to go learn from GM Ji, because in his words, three years with him is like ten or twenty years under someone else. He said that if you are lucky enough to get accepted as his personal student, something that not everyone in Korea was able to do, he was the type that taught without hesitation, and wouldn't hold back or string me along. I had already applied to schools, including ivy league schools (which I got into) but chose to give all that up to go learn from GM Ji based on that conversation. My first Hapkido instructor and I were very close, I saw him everyday, and even though he was twenty years older than me, said I was like his younger brother. So I trusted his input and advice and made a life decision to go train with GM Ji instead of getting a Harvard or Wharton degree and working on Wall Street doing mergers and acquisitions while making millions. My college finance professor invented the discounted cash flow method which was published in the Harvard Business Review when he was teaching at Columbia, so with his recommendation and connections, along with my grades and test scores, I could pretty much choose whatever school I wanted to go to on the east coast. I made the most out of my time with GM Ji, because the opportunity cost of my decision was incredibly high. 

The very first time I met GM Ji, the first words out of his mouth after looking into my eyes was "I've been waiting for you." My very first words to him was "I got here as soon as I could." That was the beginning of our relationship. GM Ji used to compare me to his student GM HAN Bong Soo. He said we both had the same type of beautifully elegant smooth kicks, in addition to everything else. He was upset when I put a white belt on that first class because he said I was a 5th Dan (just like GM Han was in his promotion book) and should wear a black belt. I wanted to start from the beginning as well as respect the seniority chain that was already in place. I wasn't a Hapkido 5th Dan, but I think he may have been picking up on the fact that Professor Chow promoted me to "Chief Instructor 5th Degree" before I moved to San Francisco, after less than three years of training with him. My uncle had introduced Professor Chow to his wife Patsy back in the 50's and so I think he was trying to pay my uncle back through his over generosity to me. 

But to answer your question, no I am not primarily a seminar student, but rather a regular student from Daly City, where it all began. So my relationship with GM Ji is a little different than your 56 seminar days with GM Lim. Even now, when I show up for Sin Moo Hapkido events, I generally try to either avoid the photo taking, or stand far in the back while everyone else is pushing their way to the front, and GM Ji will call me up and have me sit to his immediate right. People are still trying to push their way to the front of the line, as that wikipedia list shows. I should take my name off that. I didn't put my name up there in the first place. That kind of thing is for other people.


----------



## iron_ox

Daniel Sullivan said:


> When I hear eighteen years from white belt to ninth dan it makes me curious as to what the standards are. As I said, it is a different art from kendo, so I make no value judgements. It simply is a different perspective.



Choi Dojunim started his teaching career in Korea when he was in his late 40's and taught a total of less than 40 years.  According to long time students, his initial progression of techniques was rather slow, but if you stayed long enough, the flood gates opened and the true level of his knowledge was taught by him.

He apparently had his own standard in mind as he ranked people and stayed pretty consistent to that standard.  

I think it would be difficult to compare Choi Dojunim's ranking style to that of Kendo.

Interesting observation though.


----------



## iron_ox

puunui said:


> But to answer your question, no I am not primarily a seminar student, but rather a regular student from Daly City, where it all began. So my relationship with GM Ji is a little different than your 56 seminar days with GM Lim. Even now, when I show up for Sin Moo Hapkido events, I generally try to either avoid the photo taking, or stand far in the back while everyone else is pushing their way to the front, and GM Ji will call me up and have me sit to his immediate right. People are still trying to push their way to the front of the line, as that wikipedia list shows. I should take my name off that. I didn't put my name up there in the first place. That kind of thing is for other people.



But that does not answer the question.  How many years of day to day training did you do in Daly City?  18 years?  And if not than you ARE a seminar student even if you had some formative years training with him in Daly City right?  And I haven't tried to assume what your relationship is with your instructor, but you are a 9th dan never the less and you questioned 18 years of daily instruction - and I'm happy you don't push up to the front of the line, good for you - don't presume to have any idea of the relationships I have with my instructors.

Frankly my training time is not what you brought up.  You brought up Grandmaster Lim's training time with Choi Dojunim.  I don't have, or make claim to a 9th dan - you do, SO do you have at least the same training time?  I'm sure since you are raising such a fuss it must be more right?  Don't deflect.  Just answer the question.  You don't even need to bring up the training time the founder of Sin Moo had with Choi Dojunim, just your training time.


----------



## puunui

iron_ox said:


> But that does not answer the question.  How many years of day to day training did you do in Daly City?  18 years?  And if not than you ARE a seminar student even if you had some formative years training with him in Daly City right?



Actually no I am not a seminar student. I took one seminar with GM Ji, a revival techniques seminar. I consciously avoid those seminars. And whatever my training with GM Ji, it was more than your 56 days, which by the way, started almost two decades before you even met GM Lim. 




iron_ox said:


> And I haven't tried to assume what your relationship is with your instructor,



Actually you have - you presumed and continue to presume that my relationship with GM Ji is seminar based.




iron_ox said:


> but you are a 9th dan never the less and you questioned 18 years of daily instruction - and I'm happy you don't push up to the front of the line, good for you - don't presume to have any idea of the relationships I have with my instructors.



Again, it wasn't 18 years of daily instruction, because GM Lim didn't start with GM Choi and the last few years GM Choi had a stroke. Check out his webpage for more information. Reading his webpage, it isn't clear that he started training in 1965, only that he first saw or met GM Choi in 1965: 

"visiting founder choi young-sool in 1965, grandmaster lim had his first meeting with hapkido. he felt a mysterious charm that made him decide to walk the way of martial artist. at first, the was taught by master kim yeung-jae, founder choi young-sul's pupil, while teaching the students. but he couldn't help stopping his desire to be the best of the martial artist. revisiting founder choi, and became his pupil until 1981...."

As for questioning GM Lim, personally I don't really care. My point is that you live in a glass house, and therefore perhaps you should think twice before you throw rocks at GM Pelligrini or anyone else. If you want to throw rocks at me, feel free to continue to do so. I'll put my hapkido background training and knowledge up for comparison to yours anytime. Whatever sacrifice you think you made on behalf of hapkido, I sacrificed and paid more. Much more. GM Seo, who is in your lineage, doesn't care so why should you? Similarly, if GM Lim wants to promote you to master, then good for him. I wish you the best, as I do GM Pellegrini.


----------



## jks9199

*Admin Note:

Thread locked pending staff review.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Asst Administrator
*


----------

