# Young black belts, no problem - young grandmaster...hmm?



## andyjeffries (Dec 23, 2010)

"26-year-old eighth degree black belt"

I know there's been discussions on here before about how people feel about young black belts.  Personally I have no problem with them.  However, I don't think it's right that someone can be an 8th Dan black belt at 26.  I know they couldn't under Kukkiwon rules, but this is TAGB (which I'm sure used to be an ITF offshoot, but is now considered an independent).

What are your thoughts on this?  How young should someone be before they could be considered an 8th Dan/Grandmaster?


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## terryl965 (Dec 23, 2010)

If you add up the years between grades he is not old enough..... 1 between 1 to 2, 2 between -2 to 3, 3 between 3 to 4, 4 between 4 to 5, 5 between 5 to 6, 6 betweem 6 to 7, 7 between 7 to 8,  that is 28 years by itself than add another 4 to get to black equals 32 years, the kid is not that old yet..... This is just bad,


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## andyjeffries (Dec 23, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> If you add up the years between grades he is not old enough..... 1 between 1 to 2, 2 between -2 to 3, 3 between 3 to 4, 4 between 4 to 5, 5 between 5 to 6, 6 betweem 6 to 7, 7 between 7 to 8,  that is 28 years by itself than add another 4 to get to black equals 32 years, the kid is not that old yet..... This is just bad,



Apparently, in the TAGB it's even longer - it's the number of years for the grade you're going for (not the grade you are) - if Wikipedia is to be believed:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo_Association_of_Great_Britain#Gradings

Also interesting is that this website has him listed as a 3rd Dan (which sounds a lot more likely): http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html


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## SahBumNimRush (Dec 23, 2010)

It never ceases to amaze me the degree of "self-promotion" that goes on.  I've been in TKD for 25 years, and I have earned my 5th dan.  But I've seen people leave our association as a 2nd dan, and then I see them at tournament the next year and some how they out rank me because they're now a 7th dan.  I might as well just bite the bullet and promote myself to a 13th degree to the 7th power!


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## hal-apino (Dec 23, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> "26-year-old eighth degree black belt"
> 
> I know there's been discussions on here before about how people feel about young black belts. Personally I have no problem with them. However, I don't think it's right that someone can be an 8th Dan black belt at 26. I know they couldn't under Kukkiwon rules, but this is TAGB (which I'm sure used to be an ITF offshoot, but is now considered an independent).
> 
> What are your thoughts on this? How young should someone be before they could be considered an 8th Dan/Grandmaster?


 

I personally feel it's silly to see a 5, 6, or 7  year old black belt.  If your going to accept that , then a 26 year old 8th dan should not be a surprise.


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## andyjeffries (Dec 23, 2010)

hal-apino said:


> I personally feel it's silly to see a 5, 6, or 7  year old black belt.  If your going to accept that , then a 26 year old 8th dan should not be a surprise.



I have no problem with under 16s getting poom grades.  There are even 8 year olds I'd recommend for 1st Poom (Frederik Olsen from Denmark is one).  I'd prefer they wear half red/half black belts, but I'm not really offended if they wear black.

But I'd argue there's a world of difference between a young child having 1st poom (which only means they know the basics competently) and a young man having a grandmaster's grade (which means he is mature enough to grade others to 7th Dan and should be helping setting policy).


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 23, 2010)

Maybe it was a typo. 

Pax,

Chris


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## andyjeffries (Dec 23, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Maybe it was a typo.



Maybe...  The press do make mistakes like that because they don't understand the significance.  However, I still want to make sure I'm not the only one that thinks that would be crazy


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## Tez3 (Dec 23, 2010)

The 'World Championships' I imagine are named as such by the TAGB so while I expect it was competitive it would only consist of members of the TAGB. As the last two intials stand for Great Britain I imagine it was a fairly small competition.
A few years back we had an MMA fight night in Brigg, Lincolnshire and we were approached by a coach of a kickboxer, he showed us the newspaper clippings from local paper stating she was a European champion and very experienced kickboxer so we agreed to match her on the card. Anyway she turned up and gets hammered by someone who wasn't a champion in fact she'd only had a couple of KB (shiny pants style at that). the upshot was she was a European champion in their own style's championships, they were holding a 'world' one next where she was expected to win. Everyone felt very sorry for her lying on the canvas, my instructor had 'words' with the coach.

This guy has his own school as well as being a 'master', I expect we'll read he's a Grandmaster soon. I don't like junior black belts at all, no one under 18 should be one in our opinion, to grade them as such is usually a commercial decision.


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 23, 2010)

I would be suprised to find that this was anything other than journalistic sloppiness. In my experience, the press does not rate very highly in this area. As an example, every time I read an article about SCUBA, they refer to our "oxygen tanks." Any diver will tell you our tanks are filled with compressed air, or sometimes special gas mistures. But they're certainly not filled with oxygen, since 100% oxygen is incredibly toxic if you're below about 20 feet...

His  web site states that he is "club owner and chief instructor" and 3rd dan. It does say that he trains with a man who is 8th dan, so perhaps that is where that number came from.


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## Bones (Dec 23, 2010)

Titles aside, now i am curious to see if this guy will fight at the us open as the link to the news article notes and, if so, as to the outcome.


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## Manny (Dec 23, 2010)

I have some good examples and one bad example. My firsth sambonim Ramon Alvite Gazca if I recall back in 1983 was a third dan black belt, now he is a 7th dan black belt he has 40 years of life devoted to TKD, my actual sambonim Miguel Angel Carillo he has more than 35 years of experience and life inside TKD he is one of five international referess in my Country, he was a top competitor and he was a top person in the Universiades Games he has a lot of TKD bagage, Profeor Ernesto Moran Saldivar (sambonim of my sambonim) he is an 8 dan black belt with more than 40 years of life devoted to TKD he was third place in Korea back in 1973 in an international Champisonship. All these people has a full life of achievements inside TKD.

The BAD example, once not much time ago I went to an Aikido dojo, the master claims he was a 6th Dan Black Belt, when I saw him teaching I jus laughed this 20 years old person has the ability and technike of maybe a 4th or 3rd kup and hi's certificate was fake!

Manny


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## ralphmcpherson (Dec 23, 2010)

Im accustomed to waiting the same amount of years as the dan you are after, so from 1st to 2nd is 2 years, 2nd to 3rd is 3 years etc (as that is the way our club does it), so from the day you get first degree to the day you get an 8th degree would be 35 years minimum so with this guy being in his 20's it is an impossibility, but with all the self promotion and dan skipping going on anything is possible I suppose.


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## Tez3 (Dec 24, 2010)

So, who wants to phone him up to ask him what his rank is?

http://www.thisisscunthorpe.co.uk/s...ht-action/article-3033692-detail/article.html

He's actually from Scunthorpe, my instructor used to live there until last year so I'll ask him. I know his children went to TKD in Scunthorpe for a little while until it became too expensive, he has three children and it was costing over £150 a month in fees. He was in the army so couldn't teach them himself.


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## FieldDiscipline (Dec 24, 2010)

That has got to be a typo.  I really cant see that in the TAGB.  Dave Oliver is an 8th Dan himself and has been at this for a loooong time.   GM C.K. Choi ratified that while he was over. 

That's a typo.


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## searcher (Dec 24, 2010)

Man, I am running behind.    I have been training for 32 years now and I am only a 6th Dan.     What have I been doing wrong?    Oh Yeah, not promoting myself.    How silly of me.

Young BBs are fine, IF they earn it.     Young "Masters" would be fine if they could earn it.    What is the big thing about going higher in rank, it is silly.    If you have a BB and no skills with it, it makes the belt nothing more than dyed cotton.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

Dr Kim came up with the poom belt, taking the idea from Korean civil service. They used the half red & half black belt. But why those colors? What do they symbolize & what does the combo symbolize?

Gen Choi used a Jr BB & made it half white & half black belt, & used the 13 year age as the cutoff. ITF BB had to be at least 9 & you could not be promoted to 2nd Dan until at least 14 & 1/2 years old. Same certificate though.

Would anyone want to really learn a martial art from a teenage master of a GM in their 20s? Or even 30s?
What about the maturity that only comes with age & experience?


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## andyjeffries (Dec 26, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Dr Kim came up with the poom belt, taking the idea from Korean civil service. They used the half red & half black belt. But why those colors? What do they symbolize & what does the combo symbolize?



I would say (from my position) that as red belt is the last full colour belt, then red belt-black tags is the last kup grade that a half-half belt would show that it's more than the last kup grade but not quite a full dan grade.  That seems logical and strikes a chord with how I see the poom grades.

As for what red symbolizes, I'd been told many years ago that the colours symbolize progression outwards from the centre of the earth:

White - the white hot fiery centre of the earth's molten core
Yellow - the cooling, but still hot central crust
Green - the grass on the surface of the earth
Blue - the sky
Red - the sun
Black - the wider universe/space

That also fits with the colour belt -> next colour tag idea - you're getting closer to that next stage so you get a little bit of the next colour in your layer before you move in to that layer.



KarateMomUSA said:


> Would anyone want to really learn a martial art from a teenage master or a GM in their 20s? Or even 30s?



I'd say that there are two questions - would anyone want to learn from an instructor in their 20s or 30s?  In this case I'd say obviously yes - some of the world's best coaches are in their 30s (or were when they hit their prime).  I personally taught a small children's class as an 18 year old 2nd Dan (with hindsight I wasn't mentally mature enough to understand the business side of running the club).

Whether they are a Master or Grandmaster hasn't particularly mattered in my area, a teacher is a teacher (I'm learning BJJ from a purple belt and that's fine to me - he knows more than me and is allowed to teach at purple belt so it's cool).

Whether they should be a master or GM in their 20s or even 30s is a different question, but from a student's point of view I don't imagine most would care and would trust the certifying authority that gave them the grade.



KarateMomUSA said:


> What about the maturity that only comes with age & experience?



I agree with you that you shouldn't be a GM in your 20s/30s - I was just saying that a lot of people would be happy learning from them.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2010)

I'm sure a lot of people would be happy to learn from them but they would more likely be people who were completely new to martial arts and were therefore impressed by 'high' rank! oh and who didn't mind paying high prices.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 26, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say (from my position) that as red belt is the last full colour belt, then red belt-black tags is the last kup grade that a half-half belt would show that it's more than the last kup grade but not quite a full dan grade. That seems logical and strikes a chord with how I see the poom grades.
> 
> As for what red symbolizes, I'd been told many years ago that the colours symbolize progression outwards from the centre of the earth:
> 
> ...


Yes but I was wondering what the official KKW line or reasoning or symbolisim is. I don't remember seeing it in the official KKW textbook


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## andyjeffries (Dec 26, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Yes but I was wondering what the official KKW line or reasoning or symbolisim is. I don't remember seeing it in the official KKW textbook



Me neither...  I'm full of Boxing Day lunch so can't be bothered to go and check either 

Hope you had a good Christmas (and Boxing Day if you celebrate it).


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## puunui (Dec 28, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> Whether they should be a master or GM in their 20s or even 30s is a different question, but from a student's point of view I don't imagine most would care and would trust the certifying authority that gave them the grade.




Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 28, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> Me neither...  I'm full of Boxing Day lunch so can't be bothered to go and check either
> 
> Hope you had a good Christmas (and Boxing Day if you celebrate it).



Thank you...I love Christmas...I don't celebrate Boxing Day but maybe I'll start...a friend of mine says Happy St. Stephen's Day!


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## terryl965 (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.


 
But if you go by the KKW textbook and age requirement they set up they all would have been to young.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 29, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> But if you go by the KKW textbook and age requirement they set up they all would have been to young.


True & the same for the ITF. However in Gen Choi's 1965 book, the 1st English book on TKD he states Dan promotions were every 2 years. He modifies that after the ITF was formed in Seoul Korea in 1966


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## andyjeffries (Dec 29, 2010)

puunui said:


> Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.



But that was at a different period...  at the same timescale we thought having children out working at 10 years old was acceptable.  Times have moved on and while I don't think any worse (or better) for the founders having achieved such early grades at young ages, I also don't think it's acceptable these days.  

I wonder whether they would think it's acceptable to grade someone to 9th Dan in their 30s these days?...  Obviously the Kukkiwon doesn't, but I wonder for those that achieved 9th Dan young...


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## andyjeffries (Dec 29, 2010)

KarateMomUSA said:


> Thank you...I love Christmas...I don't celebrate Boxing Day but maybe I'll start...a friend of mine says Happy St. Stephen's Day!



We don't really do much to celebrate over here, but we'll often have family round (or go round a family member's house) and have a big lunch and a few drinks (kind of how I imagine Thanksgiving to be).  It's also nice because it makes Christmas more of a two-day event


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 30, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> We don't really do much to celebrate over here, but we'll often have family round (or go round a family member's house) and have a big lunch and a few drinks (kind of how I imagine Thanksgiving to be). It's also nice because it makes Christmas more of a two-day event


 
Two days? Crickey, man. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany! It's sad that people often get sick of Christmas by Dec. 24. That's when the celebrating actually _starts_ 

Pax and _Merry Christmas_,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Dec 31, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Two days? Crickey, man. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany! It's sad that people often get sick of Christmas by Dec. 24. That's when the celebrating actually _starts_
> 
> Pax and _Merry Christmas_,
> 
> Chris


 
Christmas must be over, Tesco, a supermarket chain here, has Easter eggs in it's shops now!


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## andyjeffries (Dec 31, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Christmas must be over, Tesco, a supermarket chain here, has Easter eggs in it's shops now!



I'm avoiding the shops but I can imagine it.  Normally they have a couple of days of bargain Xmas items at knock down prices then they're on to the next thing...


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## IcemanSK (Dec 31, 2010)

My guess is that the newspaper article author got it wrong in the writing of the piece. 

I was once interviewed by a reporter re: self-defense. The reporter began interviewing the receptionist of the community center where I held classes. Despite the fact that the majority of the interview was with me, the reporter used what I said & often stated "she said x, y, & z." If one watched the interview & then read the article (or just read read the article) it would make no sense as to who actually said what. I couldn't believe it got past an editor.

This article in the OP: the editor probably has no clue between a 27 year old 8th Dan & a 60 year old 8th Dan.


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## hal-apino (Dec 31, 2010)

andyjeffries said:


> I have no problem with under 16s getting poom grades. There are even 8 year olds I'd recommend for 1st Poom (Frederik Olsen from Denmark is one). I'd prefer they wear half red/half black belts, but I'm not really offended if they wear black.
> 
> But I'd argue there's a world of difference between a young child having 1st poom (which only means they know the basics competently) and a young man having a grandmaster's grade (which means he is mature enough to grade others to 7th Dan and should be helping setting policy).


 
Based on what your saying then it seems to me that it should be based on the individual and not the age.   My point was that I am not certain that many 6,7 or 8 year olds have the mature level to hold a black belt!  I am just saying the same holds true for students who have to pay respect to the "black belts"  it seems to me it is the same.   Black belts are the seniors in the school and who all other students do in fact follow, or so I thought.


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## KarateMomUSA (Dec 31, 2010)

hal-apino said:


> Based on what your saying then it seems to me that it should be based on the individual and not the age.   My point was that I am not certain that many 6,7 or 8 year olds have the mature level to hold a black belt!  I am just saying the same holds true for students who have to pay respect to the "black belts"  it seems to me it is the same.   Black belts are the seniors in the school and who all other students do in fact follow, or so I thought.


I guess it comes down to definitions of mature & black belt. To me a kid is a kid. We are all born as baby infants, then grow to be older "kids" or children. Then we are no longer a child when we enter the teen years (13 = thirTEEN) & become a TEENager. However some may still say they are still "kids"
So I like the concept of Gen Choi's junior black belt which is exactly half white & half black. According to his 6 belt color scheme, white among other concepts, signifies innocence. Black, the opposite of white on the color scheme signifies maturity, among other concepts. 
So mixing the 2 colors to me is the perfect mix & helps solve this problem. It allows the recognition of the skill acquired, that they are no longer a beginner & have grasped the physical basic techniques. While it also symbolizes the obvious lack of maturity!
This problem is addressed by not only making the junior black belt to wear this special junior belt of half white & half black until they become at teen at the age of thirteen (13), but by limiting them to 1st degree until they are 14.5 years old. The clock that requires at least 1.5 years to go from I Dan to II Dan does not start till they are 13. A further ITF restriction was added by Gen Choi that the age of 9 is needed for 1st degree.

So little Mary gets her 1st degree at 9, but wheres the junior black belt till she turns 13. She can not be a 2nd degree till she turns at least 14.5 at the earliest. So when people see Sissy Mary crying at 9 as she is afraid to sleep in the dark, or beginning taken to the dojang by the hand, not even allowed to cross the steet or go to a public bathroom by herself, they won't be confused when they she that yes she is a black belt, but a junior black belt, as she like all kids lack maturity, along with some adults we all know. Obviously the younger you go the more clear the points are.
I also like the Kukki TKD Poom system, named & created by Dr Kim from examples of the Korean civil service system.
The point is that each entity must have a logical way to handle this inherent conflict


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## andyjeffries (Jan 1, 2011)

KarateMomUSA said:


> I guess it comes down to definitions of mature & black belt. To me a kid is a kid. We are all born as baby infants, then grow to be older "kids" or children. Then we are no longer a child when we enter the teen years (13 = thirTEEN) & become a TEENager. However some may still say they are still "kids"



I would classify kids as being more encompassing.  I would say you're either a kid or an adult, with the changeover happening at 18.  If you have a new baby over here people will often say "I hear you just had a kid, congratulations" so in the UK kid means child and they don't stop being a child (even a teenager is a kid/child) until 18.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, would prefer them to wear a poom belt and I certainly consider them an Nth Poom not an Nth Dan but black belts are quite common.  I wouldn't ever mistake a 9 year old black belt for a person of maturity and instructor level


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## sawyer280769 (Feb 11, 2012)

I agree,  It has to be a typo.  I have been a member of te TAGB for over 25 years on and off.  As stated previously Dave Oliver is an 8th degree as are other founder members of the TAGB and they have been doingTKD for nearly 40 years


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 11, 2012)

Originally Posted by puunui said:
			
		

> Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.





andyjeffries said:


> But that was at a different period...  at the same timescale we thought having children out working at 10 years old was acceptable.  Times have moved on and while I don't think any worse (or better) for the founders having achieved such early grades at young ages, I also don't think it's acceptable these days.
> 
> I wonder whether they would think it's acceptable to grade someone to 9th Dan in their 30s these days?...  Obviously the Kukkiwon doesn't, but I wonder for those that achieved 9th Dan young...



Andy, I'm not really understanding what your issue is on this topic.  You state you don't have any issues with a child being a black belt.  I disagree of course, but lets go with your perspective for a moment and see where it leads.  GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.  Who ranked him to 8th Dan?  And beyond that, if he did it, why can't someone else do it as well?  Perhaps this young man skipped rank.  I know you wouldn't have any issue with that as you've benefited from this yourself on the basis of the recommedation of your GM.  Perhaps this was his case as well.  

Perhaps they use an abbreviated TIG.  The 'normal standard' really isn't a standard.  It is in use by some organizations, but not all.  It isn't a universal rule of law that must be abided by for all.  Perhaps it was a combination of abbreviated TIG and skipped Dan ranks.  Perhaps it was self-promotion, but then he wouldn't have been the first to self-promote or shop for rank by organization-hopping.  Their is martial historical precedence for that as well is there not?  

I didn't see in the article at what age he started, perhaps he was one of those 4 year old BB's many don't have a problem with?  In which case he has 24 years under his belt which is 1/3 longer than GM Ji Han Jae.  

So...what's the issue?  Seriously.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 11, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Andy, I'm not really understanding what your issue is on this topic.  You state you don't have any issues with a child being a black belt.


 
I'm OK with children hold poom rank, not full dan rank.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I disagree of course, but lets go with your perspective for a moment and see where it leads.  GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13.  So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years.  Who ranked him to 8th Dan?  And beyond that, if he did it, why can't someone else do it as well?



Because that was a different time.  50 years ago there were few/no 8/9th dan grandmasters, so at the time getting more people to that rank was generally acceptable.  As I said, at that time children were up cleaning chimneys and people thought smoking was beneficial with no side effects. Things are different now.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps this young man skipped rank.  I know you wouldn't have any issue with that as you've benefited from this yourself on the basis of the recommedation of your GM.  Perhaps this was his case as well.



I have no issue with skipping rank providing you have TIG and meet the minimum age requirements.  In this the Kukkiwon implicitly agrees because there are minimum ages for each dan rank.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps they use an abbreviated TIG.  The 'normal standard' really isn't a standard.  It is in use by some organizations, but not all.  It isn't a universal rule of law that must be abided by for all.  Perhaps it was a combination of abbreviated TIG and skipped Dan ranks.


 
Perhaps it was but I disagree with generally shortened TIG.  I understand the Kukkiwon has a process for abbreviated TIG, for Olympic/WC medal winners, etc and I'm OK with that, but to get to 8th Dan grandmaster level at 26 is crazy.  I agree with others that the early ranks don't mean that much (compared to what the average non-martial artist westerner believes they mean) but surely the high dan ranks should require many decades of studying?



Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps it was self-promotion, but then he wouldn't have been the first to self-promote or shop for rank by organization-hopping.  Their is martial historical precedence for that as well is there not?



But he's ITF and moved to TAGB (so the article says) rather than an independent.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I didn't see in the article at what age he started, perhaps he was one of those 4 year old BB's many don't have a problem with?  In which case he has 24 years under his belt which is 1/3 longer than GM Ji Han Jae.



But GM Ji was promoted in a different time...  That's the difference.  What would be interesting is to know the youngest person GM Ji has promoted to 8th Dan...  Has he repeated history by promoting other younger people to that high a rank, or does he only promote people at certain ages.



Kong Soo Do said:


> So...what's the issue?  Seriously.



No issue, I was just giving an opinion and posting this at a time when others were saying they disagreed with child/junior black belts to see how others felt.  I wasn't venting, just putting it out there fore discussion.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 11, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> No issue, I was just giving an opinion and posting this at a time when others were saying they disagreed with child/junior black belts to see how others felt.  I wasn't venting, just putting it out there fore discussion.



Thank you for the reply, and I think you put out a good topic for discussion.  It brings all kinds of things up to take a close look at and see what people think.  



> Because that was a different time.  50 years ago there were few/no 8/9th dan grandmasters, so at the time getting more people to that rank was generally acceptable.



Okay, why would it be more acceptable?  Why would there need to be a rush to get 8th/9th Dan GM's that perhaps had much less time-in-the-arts than what they now require from others?  Do you feel that 16 years is enough time to make 8th Dan and be called a GM?  If the answer is yes, then I would submit that if it was okay for him then it should be okay for anyone provided they had the same or similar training, regardless of the era of training or how many 8th/9th Dans are running around.



> I have no issue with skipping rank providing you have TIG and meet the minimum age requirements.  In this the Kukkiwon implicitly agrees because there are minimum ages for each dan rank.



But he was ITF and/or TAGB.  Do they adhere to KKW standards for TIG.  If they don't, should they?



> Perhaps it was but I disagree with generally shortened TIG.  I understand the Kukkiwon has a process for abbreviated TIG, for Olympic/WC medal winners, etc and I'm OK with that, but to get to 8th Dan grandmaster level at 26 is crazy.



If I understand you correctly, there can be circumstances that legitimately allow for shortened TIG.  Would there be any legitimate justifications that apply to this individual?  Has anyone here met him?  Seen him train?  Know of any reason that would be a legitimate justification?



> That's the difference.  What would be interesting is to know the youngest person GM Ji has promoted to 8th Dan...  Has he repeated history by promoting other younger people to that high a rank, or does he only promote people at certain ages.



I think a more interesting question would be, who promoted GM Ji to 8th Dan after 16 years of training.  What was the justification, other than just needing to get some people up there as fast as possible.  I don't necessarily see that as a legitimate justification.  

Good discussion!


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## FieldDiscipline (Feb 11, 2012)

Seeing as this has reappeared.

http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html

Found through the power of Google.  




FieldDiscipline said:


> That has got to be a typo.  I really cant see that in the TAGB.  Dave Oliver is an 8th Dan himself and has been at this for a loooong time.   GM C.K. Choi ratified that while he was over.
> 
> That's a typo.


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## Tez3 (Feb 11, 2012)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Seeing as this has reappeared.
> 
> http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html
> 
> Found through the power of Google.



Hallo! Was this the last time you posted? Missed you around!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 11, 2012)

No opinion on the age of a GM.  I think that it is really a matter of maturity and not of age.  Also, being a GM usually involves running a school or multiple schools.  Doing that well is a different set of skills than that of technical proficiency in the art.  

Comparing a GM who is younger than what is typical to a child with a black belt is a red herring.  Let's say that a child gets his first pum at five (like the kid in that ATA thread).  He can test through fourth pum prior to turning fifteen and a fourth pum can convert to a fourth dan when he is 18 (if I am reading article 8 correctly http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/viewfront/eng/promotion/regulations.jsp).  Not entirely sure, as on the same page, it indicates that a fourth dan must be 21.  

Anyway, if it's 18, then by this time, this fourth dan has been practicing since he was three or four, so you are looking at like fourteen years of practice.  If its 21, then he's been practicing for about seventeen years.  

Same kid test for his fifth dan at 25 then his sixth at 30.  That is 26 years of practice.  I'm not sure if sixth or seventh or higher is called grand master, but with 26 years in the art, an in this hypothetical scenario, our hypothetical kid has been practicing for an actual 26 years and has taken no breaks in training.

I'd certainly consider him my senior and would consider him to be an inspiration.  Should he be called a grand master?  I don't know.

I think that it is more important to look at what kind of person he or she is than what their title is.


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## msmitht (Feb 12, 2012)

It is either a typo or total bs! I have been training since I was 6. In 32 years I have earned a 6th dan mdk and a 5th dan kkw. I think all martial frauds should be exposed for who they are and, moe importantly, who they are not.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2012)

msmitht said:


> It is either a typo or total bs! I have been training since I was 6. In 32 years I have earned a 6th dan mdk and a 5th dan kkw. I think all martial frauds should be exposed for who they are and, moe importantly, who they are not.



I think post #39 above showed it was a typo.  But for the sake of discussion, if it hadn't been a typo why would you have considered him a fraud?


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## msmitht (Feb 12, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I think post #39 above showed it was a typo.  But for the sake of discussion, if it hadn't been a typo why would you have considered him a fraud?



Because there is no assosiation that would back a 28 yo 8th dan. If there was people would lay off of the ATA and ban together against it. A gm is someone who knows tkd inside and out. They would have several master instructors under them who have promoted their own students to black belts of various degrees.


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 12, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Because there is no assosiation that would back a 28 yo 8th dan. If there was people would lay off of the ATA and ban together against it. A gm is someone who knows tkd inside and out. They would have several master instructors under them who have promoted their own students to black belts of various degrees.



Thank you for the reply.  Another member offered the following;



> Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.



Is this not a good example of a historical precedence in the Korean arts?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 13, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> *Because that was a different time. 50 years ago there were few/no 8/9th dan grandmasters, so at the time getting more people to that rank was generally acceptable.*
> 
> Okay, why would it be more acceptable?  Why would there need to be a rush to get 8th/9th Dan GM's that perhaps had much less time-in-the-arts than what they now require from others?  Do you feel that 16 years is enough time to make 8th Dan and be called a GM?  If the answer is yes, then I would submit that if it was okay for him then it should be okay for anyone provided they had the same or similar training, regardless of the era of training or how many 8th/9th Dans are running around.



I can't answer why any more than I can answer why people thought that making children as young as four climb up chimneys risking death. At the time it seemed to make sense to those that were there, so they did it. I would say that now 16 years is not enough time to make 8th Dan/GM.  We have a different viewpoint from people a long time ago.  Some of it is right, some of it is wrong.  I guess time will tell whether we were right or they were ;-)



Kong Soo Do said:


> But he was ITF and/or TAGB.  Do they adhere to KKW standards for TIG.  If they don't, should they?



No and no.  I however am a Kukkiwon dan holder so that may help explain why I have my point of view more and why I refer to the Kukkiwon's rules on this, as I guess a kind of proof that I'm not crazy in my thinking ;-)



Kong Soo Do said:


> *Perhaps it was but I disagree with generally shortened TIG. I understand the Kukkiwon has a process for abbreviated TIG, for Olympic/WC medal winners, etc and I'm OK with that, but to get to 8th Dan grandmaster level at 26 is crazy.*
> 
> If I understand you correctly, there can be circumstances that legitimately allow for shortened TIG.



Correct.  Winner of Olympic Games (100% reduction in TIG), Winner of World Level Championship (80%), Winner of Continental Level Championship (60%), Medal from President/Leader of their country for devotion to Taekwondo development (50%).



Kong Soo Do said:


> Would there be any legitimate justifications that apply to this individual?  Has anyone here met him?  Seen him train?  Know of any reason that would be a legitimate justification?



No, I haven't met him, but even if he'd won Olympics, World Championships and got multiple medals from the president of his country, I'd still disagree with him having shortened TIG (and age) for more than one rank.



Kong Soo Do said:


> I think a more interesting question would be, who promoted GM Ji to 8th Dan after 16 years of training.  What was the justification, other than just needing to get some people up there as fast as possible.  I don't necessarily see that as a legitimate justification.



Again, I can't answer.  The same could be said though I'm sure of a number of other high ranking martial artists from that period.  I can't describe why it happened, only why I don't think it's as acceptable now.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 13, 2012)

Personally, I think people over think this.  If we in the west didn't care so much about titles, none of this would amount to a hill of beans.  Look at how many threads in this section revolve around who we think is deserving of what belt and what title.  And  look at all of the negativity that goes with it.

And it all turned out to be a typo anyway.  

As far as GM Ji being 8th dan after 16 years of training being acceptable then but not now, why?  Is Reversi rank somehow better now than it was then?  Or were all of the old GMs demigods?

Or is it simply that we don't like anyone breaking the mold because it messes with our egos on some level?  I suspect that that is the real reason.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 13, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Thank you for the reply. Another member offered the following;
> 
> 
> 
> Is this not a good example of a historical precedence in the Korean arts?



Abso frickin' lootely. GM Han Cha Kyo's ITF Dan # was k-8-6. Issude in 1973. I will have to check his exact age, but he was in the Military demo in fron of President Rhee in 1954 or so. He would have been about 22 at that time. I will look for something which has his exact age.  This means he would have been a 41 year old 8th Dan. 

I think the time in grade requirements got extended when a lot of Non Natives started training.  Plus there was no "International Dan Line" crossing which bumped up the rank.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Personally, I think people over think this.  If we in the west didn't care so much about titles, none of this would amount to a hill of beans.  Look at how many threads in this section revolve around who we think is deserving of what belt and what title.  And  look at all of the negativity that goes with it. And it all turned out to be a typo anyway.



Typo or not, it's an interesting discussion.  At the end of the day, if we don't discuss and disagree we never get a chance to hear conflicting opinions and change our own.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> As far as GM Ji being 8th dan after 16 years of training being acceptable then but not now, why?  Is Reversi rank somehow better now than it was then?  Or were all of the old GMs demigods?



As far as I know Reversi doesn't have ranks.  Or are you referring to go/baduk/wei qi?

Assuming you meant go, I guess the answer would be that the martial arts system took it's origins/concepts/terminology from go, but the two aren't directly comparable.  Baduk players can go from 1p (1st Dan professional) to 9p in 3 years (Rui Naiwei turned pro in 1985 and become the 9th 9p in China in 1988).  Do you think that would be acceptable in martial arts?

Also, bear in mind that the ranks in go were originally created to give a fair handicap system (handicaps in go are very uniform in that you can give your opponent more stones on the board to start with and the difficulty to recover is proportional to the number of stones).  In modern go they don't give stone handicaps in professional dan rank tournaments as even a 3 stone handicap could easily cause a 1p to beat a 9p.

So the difference between dan ranks in go and martial arts are completely different, so although the kyu/gup/dan system took inspiration from go, people should stop using the comparison as it falls down very simply upon detailed discussion.

Here's an interesting answer to the question "Is grandmaster level chess better today than 30 years ago?".  I would personally feel this makes sense.  Times move on, people study more, new things are considered, techniques/strategy are devised, biomechanics/biological processes are discovered.  Therefore the amount of knowledge/ability that is required to achieve the highest ranks is harder now than it was decades ago (and this therefore translates in to longer to achieve it).



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or is it simply that we don't like anyone breaking the mold because it messes with our egos on some level?  I suspect that that is the real reason.



I'm nowhere close to grandmaster status, so I don't care who is/isn't.  It may be ego on the part of existing grandmasters who don't want others getting to their level too soon (but from the grandmasters I know that certainly does not seem to be the case).

This is really a discussion just to gather opinions and discuss it.  For some of us it may solidify our existing opinion, others may change.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 13, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is this not a good example of a historical precedence in the Korean arts?



I agree there is precedent set, but should we always be bound by what historically happened?  Should we do the same things "because that's how they were done back then" or should we evolve?

Do you agree that because it was law in the past that we should still stone our children to death if they are stubborn and rebellious?

_"If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother ... Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city ... And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. Deuteronomy 21:18-21"_


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## andyjeffries (Feb 13, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Abso frickin' lootely. GM Han Cha Kyo's ITF Dan # was k-8-6. Issude in 1973. I will have to check his exact age, but he was in the Military demo in fron of President Rhee in 1954 or so. He would have been about 22 at that time. I will look for something which has his exact age.  This means he would have been a 41 year old 8th Dan.



He started martial arts when he was 9, born in 1934.  So from 1943 to 1973 is 30 years of training.  That's a fair amount of time and he would have been 39 years old as a grandmaster, which is a lot different to the theoretical (typo) young grandmaster this thread was about.  Under Kukkiwon rules (which I know we're not talking about) 44 years is the minimum age for 8th dan, so this is not that dissimilar.

Again, though this was at a different time.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 13, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Typo or not, it's an interesting discussion. At the end of the day, if we don't discuss and disagree we never get a chance to hear conflicting opinions and change our own.


Certainly, but why must the same subject be rehashed over and over again? 



andyjeffries said:


> As far as I know Reversi doesn't have ranks. Or are you referring to go/baduk/wei qi?


Go, which Reversi is similar to and from which kano lifted our kyus and dans.



andyjeffries said:


> Assuming you meant go, I guess the answer would be that the martial arts system took it's origins/concepts/terminology from go, but the two aren't directly comparable. Baduk players can go from 1p (1st Dan professional) to 9p in 3 years (Rui Naiwei turned pro in 1985 and become the 9th 9p in China in 1988). Do you think that would be acceptable in martial arts?
> 
> Also, bear in mind that the ranks in go were originally created to give a fair handicap system (handicaps in go are very uniform in that you can give your opponent more stones on the board to start with and the difficulty to recover is proportional to the number of stones). In modern go they don't give stone handicaps in professional dan rank tournaments as even a 3 stone handicap could easily cause a 1p to beat a 9p.
> 
> ...


The point is that you are talking about a rank system lifted from a game and which in martial arts is so nebulous in its definition that nobody can really agree about what defines it. Time in grade isn't even uniform from art to art or from org to org within an art. People cannot even agree on what qualifies a person as a first dan. 



andyjeffries said:


> I'm nowhere close to grandmaster status, so I don't care who is/isn't. It may be ego on the part of existing grandmasters who don't want others getting to their level too soon (but from the part of existing grandmasters who don't want others getting to their level too soon (but from the grandmasters I know that certainly does not seem to be the case).
> 
> This is really a discussion just to gather opinions and discuss it. For some of us it may solidify our existing opinion, others may change.


I wasn't thinking of you in particular. But who says that you have to be near or at GM rank for ego to come in? All it takes for ego is for someone else who we perceive as less accomplished/younger/different from ourselves achieving something that we haven't and going against the grain. 

_'My GM was fifty before he got his 8th dan... this guy's only 30 and must be a fraud_.' 

or 

'_He's ten years younger than me and I'm not eligible, but I've been training just as long. He must be a fraud._'

Ego is a funny thing, and it can get in our way for less than logical reasons.

Here is a question: What is the job of a person with 'grandmaster' rank? If you took away the kyu/dan system, what would you say are the requirements? What qualifications should a person being considered for such a job exhibit. And would not preventing a younger person from being a GM be considered age discrimination in any other profession? As for time in the profession, should that even really be such a big consideration? 

Promotions in most other professions are more about the results you produce. Plenty of people are with companies for a long time and have mediocre quality of work and produce questionable results. 

Time in grade just means that you've been present for a while and has no bearing on your ability to produce, your actual knowledge, or what you have contributed to the art.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Certainly, but why must the same subject be rehashed over and over again?



I started this thread because there has been lots of "kiddie black belt" threads, but none discussing the other end of the spectrum.  It also had just come up in my news feed, so it was timeley.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Go, which Reversi is similar to and from which kano lifted our kyus and dans.



I wouldn't say that Reversi is similar to Go.  That's my issue with people keeping using Reversi in this situation.  Reversi is about flipping pieces and having more pieces than your opponent on the board at the end of the game.

Go is about territory and strategic defence/attack (and capture to a lesser extent).  They are completely different, but both happen to use black and white pieces.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The point is that you are talking about a rank system lifted from a game and which in martial arts is so nebulous in its definition that nobody can really agree about what defines it. Time in grade isn't even uniform from art to art or from org to org within an art. People cannot even agree on what qualifies a person as a first dan.



You were the one that brought Reversi/Go in to this ;-)



Daniel Sullivan said:


> I wasn't thinking of you in particular.



I assumed as you were replying to my message it was aimed at me, thanks for the clarification.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> But who says that you have to be near or at GM rank for ego to come in?



Fair enough, I hadn't thought of it in the terms you describe.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Here is a question: What is the job of a person with 'grandmaster' rank? If you took away the kyu/dan system, what would you say are the requirements? What qualifications should a person being considered for such a job exhibit. And would not preventing a younger person from being a GM be considered age discrimination in any other profession? As for time in the profession, should that even really be such a big consideration?



These are good points for discussion.  I used to feel that rank was just a progression through the arts as a student and that there should be no reason why you should be kept back from higher rank even if you don't want to teach.

I've changed over time to think that higher dan ranks are for those that are teaching or at least aspiring to teach.  If you don't, there's no need for higher rank.  I now agree that master ranks should be for those that have (or aim to have) school(s) of their own.  I think that grandmasters should definitely have produced their own masters, or at least be committed to teaching others, more junior masters.

So, given that a certain amount of time is really required for people to mature in the arts, it would take X years to reach "master"/"instructor" level and therefore Y years to reach grandmaster level.  There may be some that get there faster than others, but I don't think it should be purely achievement focused.  I don't see Taekwondo as a profession, I see it as a journey through life.

I like to think of a grandmaster as being equal to a grandfather within a family.  I am a father to two young children (therefore I'm a master on that scale, I have my own "students").  I am confident raising my children and helping guide them to become adults/parents themselves one day.  There are still times I like to shoot the breeze/discuss issues with my father (the grandmaster on that scale) and I find he has a different perspective and insight that I don't have.

So, while I'm sure there are some pretty young grandfathers, you don't get to be a grandmaster at 10 years old regardless of how wise you are ;-)

That may not be the most logical of debate points, but hopefully I've got my feelings/opinion across.  (dons asbestos suit for the upcoming flaming)



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Promotions in most other professions are more about the results you produce. Plenty of people are with companies for a long time and have mediocre quality of work and produce questionable results.
> 
> Time in grade just means that you've been present for a while and has no bearing on your ability to produce, your actual knowledge, or what you have contributed to the art.



I agree with both points.  However, as I don't see Taekwondo as a profession per se (sure some people may make a very nice living at it, but I see that more as a side-effect) so it breaks down in comparison in my mind.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 13, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I wouldn't say that Reversi is similar to Go. That's my issue with people keeping using Reversi in this situation. Reversi is about flipping pieces and having more pieces than your opponent on the board at the end of the game.
> 
> Go is about territory and strategic defence/attack (and capture to a lesser extent). They are completely different, but both happen to use black and white pieces.
> 
> You were the one that brought Reversi/Go in to this ;-)



The specifics of the game are unimportant; the point is that it was lifted from a game and the ranks have to do with handicaps between players, which is at least initially how it was used when it was lifted.

Again, the meaning of rank in martial arts is so nebulous in its definition that nobody can really agree about what defines it. Time in grade isn't even uniform from art to art or from org to org within an art. 

People cannot even agree on what qualifies a person as a first dan. BJJ requires almost a decade from what I understand. In Korea, HKD and TKD require a year. In the US, it generally ranges from two to four years, with two being average for the big commercial schools.

Then you have titles in some arts that are not directly tied to a specific grade. 



andyjeffries said:


> I assumed as you were replying to my message it was aimed at me, thanks for the clarification.


Replying _to_ you, not about you. 



andyjeffries said:


> These are good points for discussion. I used to feel that rank was just a progression through the arts as a student and that there should be no reason why you should be kept back from higher rank even if you don't want to teach.
> 
> I've changed over time to think that higher dan ranks are for those that are teaching or at least aspiring to teach. If you don't, there's no need for higher rank. I now agree that master ranks should be for those that have (or aim to have) school(s) of their own. I think that grandmasters should definitely have produced their own masters, or at least be committed to teaching others, more junior masters.
> 
> ...


No, it isn't a profession, but we're still talking about promotions, promotions that bring with them greater responsibility and prestige.

You mentioned a chess grandmaster. No time in grade requirements there, nor age requirements: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_(chess). But it definitely is results driven.

Just to be clear, I'm not in favor of grandmasters in their twenties or of awarding black belts to children. But while I am not in favor of it, nor will I dismss the holders out of hand, though I consider both to be red flags.

While I do _like_ what you said about what a grandmaster should be, and while I agree that it does take a certain amount of time to both learn the art and to mature, what you said is not overly concrete.

And since we're up here debating about what constitutes a valid GM, I'd like to see something concrete besides age as a requirement.  Otherwise, we can all just say that 'this is what I feel a grandmaster should be and it is true for me, though maybe not for you.'  At which point facts become irrelevant.

Personally, I think it starts with whether or not the individual is part of a larger organization.  Organizations set parameters for what constitutes a GM.  Some have minimum ages, others do not.  Most have a minimum grade (7th, 8th, 9th).  Not all organizations have the same time in grade requirements, so while it may not be consistent from organization to organization, you can at least measure time in grade within an organization.

But if the person is independent, what then?  Do you use the standard of other organizations within the art?  Then the question comes up as to what defines a grandmaster.  Is he or she the head of a system?  If so, then age, time in grade, and grading itself are no longer factors; he or she is the head of their system.  What if the art has no grading?  Not all arts do, though I'd bet that most of the arts that don't also don't use the title of grandmaster in their system.


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## dancingalone (Feb 13, 2012)

A simple solution would be to correlate the dan ranks to a set curriculum along with a subjective measure of skill, performance, and understanding of said material with some allowances given for age and physical handicap.  Keep the other titles such as sabum/master/grandmaster formally reserved for people who actually teach and run schools.

Some Japanese/Okinawan systems do it this way and I think it works well.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> A simple solution would be to correlate the dan ranks to a set curriculum along with a subjective measure of skill, performance, and understanding of said material with some allowances given for age and physical handicap. Keep the other titles such as sabum/master/grandmaster formally reserved for people who actually teach and run schools.
> 
> Some Japanese/Okinawan systems do it this way and I think it works well.



That is how it is done in kendo.  And yes, it works very well.  Isn't it also the same in aikido and goju?


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Because there is no assosiation that would back a 28 yo 8th dan. If there was people would lay off of the ATA and ban together against it. A gm is someone who knows tkd inside and out. They would have several master instructors under them who have promoted their own students to black belts of various degrees.



In GM Ji's case, when he was 8th Dan, he had lots of students who had opened their own dojang and were promoting their own students to dan rank, and those students were also going out and opening their own dojang. GM Ji's title back then was "Chong Kwan Jang", which meant that he had many kwan jang under him, even at that young age. For example, one such student was GM HAN Bong Soo, who had taught for years at Osan AFB and then moved to Los Angeles to open a Hapkido dojang there.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

msmitht said:


> I think all martial frauds should be exposed for who they are and, more importantly, who they are not.



I agree.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> GM Han Cha Kyo's ITF Dan # was k-8-6. Issude in 1973. I will have to check his exact age, but he was in the Military demo in fron of President Rhee in 1954 or so. He would have been about 22 at that time. I will look for something which has his exact age.  This means he would have been a 41 year old 8th Dan.



Looking at other arts, TOHEI Koichi Sensei was promoted to Aikido 8th Dan at age 32.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> He started martial arts when he was 9, born in 1934.  So from 1943 to 1973 is 30 years of training.  That's a fair amount of time and he would have been 39 years old as a grandmaster, which is a lot different to the theoretical (typo) young grandmaster this thread was about.  Under Kukkiwon rules (which I know we're not talking about) 44 years is the minimum age for 8th dan, so this is not that dissimilar.



Who was he training with in 1943? The Chung Do Kwan, his kwan, didn't open until 1944. I also do not believe he was promoted to 1st Dan by GM LEE Won Kuk.


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## dancingalone (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That is how it is done in kendo.  And yes, it works very well.  Isn't it also the same in aikido and goju?



In the particular styles I practice, yes.  In USAF (Aikikai) aikido, we have fukushidoin (asst/junior instructor), shidoin (instructor), and shihan ('master', used to designate a senior level teacher).  In goju, we have the shogo titles of renshi, kyoshi, and hanshi, although it's not as uniformly implemented.

In theory, the teaching titles are decoupled from the dan levels, but I've never met a high ranker in either art here in North America who did NOT run a dojo at least at some point.  However, I understand at the Jundokan on Okinawa there is are numbers of high level dan 6th+ who have been studying there for decades, but they aren't really teachers on their own since the Jundokan has ample senior instructors already.  So mostly they just serve as senior examples.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> If we in the west didn't care so much about titles, none of this would amount to a hill of beans.



Funny, and I've said this before, but when the seniors get together, they never talk about what rank they are. And they don't ask each other what their rank is either.


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## dancingalone (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> Funny, and I've said this before, but when the seniors get together, they never talk about what rank they are. And they don't ask each other what their rank is either.



Honestly then why have them?  How did the title system come about in taekwondo?  Who first accepted the title of grandmaster, etc?


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Honestly then why have them?  How did the title system come about in taekwondo?  Who first accepted the title of grandmaster, etc?



I don't know about the title system, but in 1971, the KTA started the International Master Instructor (Kuk Je Sabum) program, a program that was eventually taken over by the WTF. Around the same time, taekwondo instructors who wished to open a dojang in Korea were required to take an instructor course and obtain an instructor license, which is similar in intent and function as a board certification for doctors or passing the bar for attorneys. This is the Kukkiwon Instructor Course today. 

The KTA, Kukkiwon and WTF do not have a "Grandmaster" certification program. 

In one of his books, GM LEE Kyong Myong stated that 1st-5th Dan (yudanja) are considered "master" rank, and 6th-9th Dan (kodanja) are considered grandmaster rank. Later, when GM Lee became one of the chief authors of books and other publications for the Kukkiwon, KTA and/or WTF his idea and explanation was adopted. 

But the point I was trying to make is that to non korean practitioners, the idea of dan rank seems paramount, to the point where people do all sorts of crazy things to get higher and higher rank. To the korean born senior, they are not so interested in such things, except perhaps when interacting with the non-korean students and juniors.


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## dancingalone (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't know about the title system, but in 1971, the KTA started the International Master Instructor (Kuk Je Sabum) program, a program that was eventually taken over by the WTF. Around the same time, taekwondo instructors who wished to open a dojang in Korea were required to take an instructor course and obtain an instructor license, which is similar in intent and function as a board certification for doctors or passing the bar for attorneys. This is the Kukkiwon Instructor Course today.



Personally, I like the idea of formalizing the process through which certain titles are granted, though I have no idea what the broad thought is on that.  A title frequently is used as a credential of sorts - no reason why then objective requirements couldn't be attached to gaining it, such as graduating an Instructor Course.



puunui said:


> But the point I was trying to make is that to non korean practitioners, the idea of dan rank seems paramount, to the point where people do all sorts of crazy things to get higher and higher rank. To the korean born senior, they are not so interested in such things, except perhaps when interacting with the non-korean students and juniors.



Yes, it's almost a dichotomy there.  Similar to how Yamada Shihan prefers to be addressed as Yamada Sensei instead.  Yet...why have the Shihan title in the first place?  Why have the title of Grandmaster in TKD?

I'm not convinced it is all about interacting with us rank-crazed westerners, at least with Japanese/Okinawan martial arts.  The shogo ranks were created by the Dai Nippon Botoku Kai well before the first American darkened the door of a post WWII dojo.  As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Personally, I like the idea of formalizing the process through which certain titles are granted, though I have no idea what the broad thought is on that.  A title frequently is used as a credential of sorts - no reason why then objective requirements couldn't be attached to gaining it, such as graduating an Instructor Course.



After thinking about it a little more, I believe that there is a sort of formalization process, through the Kukkiwon Instructor certification program. For example, to receive the 3rd Class license, you have to be a Kukkiwon 4th Dan or above. If you are 3rd Dan and below, you can take the course and they will give you a graduation certificate, but not the license until you are 4th Dan. To be 2nd Class, I believe you have to be a Kukkiwon 6th Dan and for 1st Class, you have to be a Kukkiwon 8th Dan. So there is that. 




dancingalone said:


> Yes, it's almost a dichotomy there.  Similar to how Yamada Shihan prefers to be addressed as Yamada Sensei instead.  Yet...why have the Shihan title in the first place?  Why have the title of Grandmaster in TKD?



I think it came about to distinguish between lower rank practitioners. 




dancingalone said:


> I'm not convinced it is all about interacting with us rank-crazed westerners, at least Japanese/Okinawan martial arts.  The shogo ranks were created by the Dai Nippon Botoku Kai well before the first American darkened the door of a post WWII dojo.  As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.



The Korean martial arts really didn't adopt that aspect of Japanese martial arts, at least not to the same extent. They instead went primarily with dan rank. I was looking through some old black belt magazines from the 60s, and the instructor were referred to as "Mr.". Later, the title changed to "master" and now "grandmaster", "supreme grandmaster" "eternal grandmaster" and so forth. 

I'm personally not into titles, but I can tell you that many non-korean practitioners are. Almost every time I visit a martial arts supply store in Korea, there is generally one westerner making some outrageous looking overly wide belt with as much writing and stripes on it that the belt can hold. Then you look at the patch covered silk or satin uniform they are ordering and you understand why the belt has to be that way. It wouldn't match otherwise. Personally, the only thing I put on my dobok from korea is my name in hangul on the top and pants (no patches), if that, and on my belt, my name and the name of my organization, with no rank stripes.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> As they exist and will continue to exist, I'd rather see their award and usage made uniform and meaningful.



On uniform and meaningful, I think you are applying standards which are applicable to a small organization from another style, to the largest organization of any style. I think it is impractical and at this point, unworkable. People have their opinions on what is and isn't acceptable. Generally those standards tend to change over time, in much the same way that the level of parental discipline changes with each additional child added to the family. And once that parent becomes a grandparent, then all parental discipline standards go out the window. 

Even when a student from the strictest dojang transfers to another school, the new instructor always tries to "tweak" that new student to his or her way of doing things. No one has the same standards on anything. 

The Kukkiwon does have a built in program for standards, through their Instructor Courses as well as through the high dan promotion process. There are exceptions, for exceptional people, but as a general rule, in order to be promoted to Kukkiwon 8th and 9th Dan, you have to pass a physical test at the Kukkiwon itself. People flunk these examinations. So someone can get another to promote them up to Kukkiwon 7th Dan, but you won't make it to Kukkiwon 8th or 9th Dan if you don't have a measurable acceptable level of skill. The test itself can be nerve racking, performing before a test board made up of Kwan Presidents from the nine kwan, some of whom who invented the very poomsae that you are performing.


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## dancingalone (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> On uniform and meaningful, I think you are applying standards which are applicable to a small organization from another style, to the largest organization of any style. I think it is impractical and at this point, unworkable.



I hope I am not displaying too much hubris in disagreeing with you.  As the largest MA organization  world-wide, the KKW is precisely in the position to create and enforce standards for the betterment of TKD in general.  Not necessarily just in terms of titles either.  

People on this board often talk about certification and what makes it desirable to people.  As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.

By the way, the USAF and Aikikai certainly don't come near the numbers that the KKW can boast.  Nonetheless both are larger entities as far as martial arts orgs come, and the two lower teaching titles as presently bestowed are aligned with a kensushei or teacher instruction program.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I hope I am not displaying too much hubris in disagreeing with you.



No problem. You never get disrespectful or angry, and if you do, you don't hold on to your anger. Plus, you back up your points with facts and aren't into misdirection or deception just to "win". Disagree with me as much as you want. Having discussions with you only makes me better. 




dancingalone said:


> As the largest MA organization  world-wide, the KKW is precisely in the  position to create and enforce standards for the betterment of TKD in  general.  Not necessarily just in terms of titles either.



I understand what you are saying. And in conjunction with the WTF, the Kukkiwon is in a sense creating and enforcing standards, through competition. If you watch tournament footage from 30 years ago, you will see a variety of styles as far as kyorugi or sparring went. Today, everyone looks very similar to each other, mainly because the rules encourage and to a certain extent require everyone to look similar, in order to score points. Today, the same is occurring in poomsae, through the World Poomsae Championships and other events. The Kukkiwon is also working towards educational programs such as the Kukkiwon Instructor Course. Things are getting more standardized, at least for those who are interested in being within the standards set by the Kukkiwon. 




dancingalone said:


> People on this board often talk about certification and what makes it desirable to people.  As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.



The problem is that Kukkiwon certification and licensing is voluntary outside of Korea. If Kukkiwon certification and licensing were mandatory, like it is in Korea, and people competed as much as they do in Korea, we would see much more standardization in taekwondo through the Kukkiwon. 

The best that I can tell you is that if you wish to see standardization through the Kukkiwon, then you can first take steps to get yourself standardized, and then standardize your own curriculum according to the Kukkiwon standards. That is the first order of business, taking care of your own area of responsibility.


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## mastercole (Feb 13, 2012)

When the WTF took the ball and ran with it, they made one touch down after the other. Right now, it's at about 200 (Nations in the WTF) and counting. I don't think the Kukkiwon could quite keep up with the explosive growth the WTF created. I think it surprised all the seniors.

What has happened is that for decades Taekwondo has grown rapidly in many nations, and in those nations the original Korean instructors met together and made common, but somewhat loose rules like 4th Dan is instructor, and maybe that means master, etc.  Because back home in Korea, no one could take the Sabum exam until they held 4th Dan, and, graduated the Sabum course.  There was no course available to non-Koreans during that time, until 1998. So all these people thought they were automatically instructors, or masters at 4th Dan, or 5th.

Those of us who started attending those first years of courses started coming back to our countries and sharing the information we learned  in Korea. And some of that information did not match with what had been going on at home all these years.  Some of it was shocking to those who had adopted these made up rules from there teachers.  When the word started to spread that the earth was not flat, but indeed round, I'm sure the one's spreading that news, which was actually old news, found similar situations.

To me it is really simple. You just have to listen to Korean born masters talk to each other, in Korean. You will hear all these Korean terms used.  Hyung, Hyungnim, Seonsangnim, Hoobae, Seonbae, Jeja, Yudanja, Geupja, Kodanja, Sabum, Sabumnin, Kwanjang, Kwanjangnim, Hwejang, Hwejangnim, etc.  Westerns might say they are titles.  Most all of these are forms of courtesy used in the Korean language.

Westerns, or other nations Taekwondoin then want to know what their title is.  The answer is not so clear because other nations do not follow the same society rules of courtesy found in Korea. So as a non-Korean, can I really ever TRULY be a Hyungnim, Hoobae, Seonbae, etc.?  I say rarely.  But some of these can apply loosely to us.  Some can apply officially to us, in special official circumstance.

If our Korean seniors referee to us in any of these forms of courtesy, then, I guess these terms may somewhat, or even fully apply to us.

I think their has been a simple effort to clarify this.  Most everyone in Taekwondoin was or is a Jeja (student), most of those were at least a "yugeupja" (geup, or color belt rank holder).  Some are Poom holders (upper level child practitioners who are not old enough to have Dan).  Yudanja, Dan holders from 1st to 5th.  Kodanja, Dan holders from 6th to 9th.  Official certifications are issued for these practitioner classifications.

One officially becomes a Sabum by the Kukkiwon, when they pass the test, and are certified as one.  Hwejang can come as an official appointment, or election. Taekwondo Kwanjang the same way.

I think it is important to classify that Kukkiwon 1st to 5th Dan Yudanja, and, 6th to 9th Dan Kodanja does not mean instructor, officially it doesn't.  Dan has no true bearing on the general official instructor designation. Sabum should mean instructor, you have to pass the Sabum test, not a Dan test. 

In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan. I get his picture of the English butler out to calling "Master Worthington", a simple title of respect for a member of the family or household. In English, I think Grandmaster can also be a formal form of Sir, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 6th to 9th Dan.

I think when "Master" is used at 4th Dan, or whatever Dan to mean instructor, or now at 4th Dan one has reached some magical level and gets to wear some special belt, it gives false sense of self to that person and/or to those around them, and that is simply wrong according to Buddhist thought, which is Taekwondo thought. But, in a business sense, it makes sense, if that makes sense 

I use the "master" title in my school for all Dan and Poom holders, including myself. That takes away the god like status that has been wrongly applied to black belts, and instructors. All my students will tell you that "master" means Mr, or Ms. The only people that referee to me as Grandmaster are my Korean seniors, they use it in public in front of students or at events or on documents. No one in my school calls me Grandmaster. Most parents call me Al, I ask all American born, and non-Korean Taekwondoin to call me Al, unless we are in front of our students, then I call the person by their formal title. I do use the title Grandmaster in advertising though. That is a different subject.

Other wise if we as non-Korean's start using these Korean terms to refer to ourselves among ourselves, it becomes like these guys who join some group so they can now claim the Japanese title of Soke, when if one really studies what a Soke is, no one living outside of Japan could achieve the true designation as Soke.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> As a school owner, I'd be a proud proponent of KKW certification if along with the many positive things it currently does, the KKW also had a strong review/certification process for lower dan ranks.



Also, on the idea of the lower ranks, as has been stated by others, most people who take taekwondo quit after achieving 1st Poom/Dan or 2nd Poom/Dan. Therefore, it really does not make all that much sense to require the utmost precision from these yudanja level members. In fact, many instructors tell me that it burns them out to spend all this time and energy working on their color belt masterpieces, only to have them quit soon after making 1st Dan/Poom. However, if someone does stick around to say, 3rd or 4th Dan, then the probability is greater that they will stay for the long term. That is where the Kukkiwon Instructor Courses come in. There are many avenues for 3rd, 4th or higher dan to get additional quality training, and additional certification, whether it is instructor certification, referee certification, or whatever else. So I do not necessarily agree with making "high" standards for 1st or 2nd Dan level practitioners.


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> I'm personally not into titles, but I can tell you that many non-korean practitioners are. Almost every time I visit a martial arts supply store in Korea, there is generally one westerner making some outrageous looking overly wide belt with as much writing and stripes on it that the belt can hold. Then you look at the patch covered silk or satin uniform they are ordering and you understand why the belt has to be that way. It wouldn't match otherwise. Personally, the only thing I put on my dobok from korea is my name in hangul on the top and pants (no patches), if that, and on my belt, my name and the name of my organization, with no rank stripes.



This has largely been my experience, as well. At my dojang (in Korea), the only people who wear any rank stripes on their belts are foreigners who brought their belts from their home countries. I can't recall the last time someone asked me what my rank was. That kind of conversation simply never comes up. People just don't seem too concerned with what dan someone holds. Belts from our club have only the club name and the name of the student.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> This has largely been my experience, as well. At my dojang (in Korea), the only people who wear any rank stripes on their belts are foreigners who brought their belts from their home countries. I can't recall the last time someone asked me what my rank was. That kind of conversation simply never comes up. People just don't seem too concerned with what dan someone holds. Belts from our club have only the club name and the name of the student.



Thanks for the post. Is your name James?


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## Jaeimseu (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> Thanks for the post. Is your name James?



Yes, it is.


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## lifespantkd (Feb 13, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Westerns might say they are titles. Most all of these are forms of courtesy used in the Korean language....In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan....I use the "master" title in my school for all Dan and Poom holders, including myself. That takes away the god like status that has been wrongly applied to black belts, and instructors. All my students will tell you that "master" means Mr, or Ms.



I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.

Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.

Cynthia


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## mastercole (Feb 13, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.
> 
> Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.
> 
> Cynthia



There is a big difference.  Some American Taekwondoin I know that have went off to Korea to experience teaching in a Taekwondo dojang have experienced a rude awakening, they found out a Sabum (Taekwondo teacher) is looked at by the general Korean society as something between a Lead Burger Flipper and Chief Toilet Washer.  Shocking when you come from America where "Black Belt" is the ultimate goal, and people can't wait to get that 4th Gold Stripe so they can not get the Master Patch.  So for sure, instructor in the West, and instructor in Korea, actually are two very different things.


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## lifespantkd (Feb 13, 2012)

mastercole said:


> There is a big difference. Some American Taekwondoin I know that have went off to Korea to experience teaching in a Taekwondo dojang have experienced a rude awakening, they found out a Sabum (Taekwondo teacher) is looked at by the general Korean society as something between a Lead Burger Flipper and Chief Toilet Washer. Shocking when you come from America where "Black Belt" is the ultimate goal, and people can't wait to get that 4th Gold Stripe so they can not get the Master Patch. So for sure, instructor in the West, and instructor in Korea, actually are two very different things.



I practice Taekwondo because I value it as a path of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I teach Taekwondo for the same reason. I do not spend energy thinking about trying to get to a particular rank or trying to get people to see me in a particular way. I simply keep doing what I can to learn more and move along that path for myself and to help others who are interested in doing the same. So, whether I rank high or low in anyone's assessment is irrelevant to me. It's about the journey.

Cynthia


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## mastercole (Feb 13, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> I practice Taekwondo because I value it as a path of physical, mental, and spiritual development. I teach Taekwondo for the same reason. I do not spend energy thinking about trying to get to a particular rank or trying to get people to see me in a particular way. I simply keep doing what I can to learn more and move along that path for myself and to help others who are interested in doing the same. So, whether I rank high or low in anyone's assessment is irrelevant to me. It's about the journey.
> 
> Cynthia



I feel a person that holds this view is not distracted by meaningless things, and is going to truly learn and develop real and lasting relationships with their students, juniors, peers and seniors.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 14, 2012)

mastercole said:


> In the English language, Master can be a formal form related to Mister, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 1st to 5th Dan. I get his picture of the English butler out to calling "Master Worthington", a simple title of respect for a member of the family or household. In English, *I think Grandmaster can also be a formal form of Sir*, and I think used in that way, it is perfect for 6th to 9th Dan.


Loved your post! 

I quoted this part because it is the only part that I had any real comment on. I have never seen the term grandmaster used outside of various fraternal or societal organizations. I have never seen it used as a more formal version of sir.

Regarding the term 'master,' I have seen the usage that you describe. So to has anyone who has ever read Batman. Also, the term is used in various professions, including academics; shipmaster, chess master, schoolmaster, headmaster, master mechanic, master craftsman, etc. 

Professionally, it was historially the title used in the guild system and was the next step after a journeyman. I do not believe that the term grandmaster was used in the guild system, but I may also be wrong on that count. 

Generally, the term is used to denote somone who is a professional or who oversees other professionals or serves as the authority in a particular setting. I think that we in the MA community like to add a great deal of meaning to what a master is. A great deal of meaning that probably doesn't exist in the parent cultures of most of the arts that are discussed on these boards.

I always think of geub/kyu grade students or their equivallent as apprentices, first through third or fourth dan practitioners or their equivallents (depending upon the system) as journeymen and fourth or fifth dan and up as masters (again, depending on the system).  I know that these titles are still used in the trades.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 14, 2012)

lifespantkd said:


> I am just 2nd dan. And, I teach Taekwondo. References in my system of Taekwondo tell me to call myself "Master." I do so because it is appropriate in Kukkiwon Taekwondo, not because it means that I believe I have attained mastery. Far from it. I simply know more about Taekwondo than my students and they are interested in learning from me. Because "Sabum" means "instructor of martial arts" and I teach, my students call me "Sabumnim." It is merely an ackknowledgment that I am their teacher.
> 
> Just like identical terms in the Spanish of Spain and the Spanish of Mexico may not have identical meanings, identical terms of address can have different meanings in different martial arts systems. Knowing those meanings is essential if practitioners from different systems want to successfully understand each other.
> 
> Cynthia


Actually, sabum is the equivalent of shihan and means, if I remember correctly, teacher-father or somthing to that effect. Seonsang is the equivalent to sensei, and the general term for an instructor, if I am not mistaken, is kyosa. There is, if I recall, two versions of kyosa, which sound the same phonetically, but have different hanmoon. The other version is the equivalent to kyoshi.

Not criticizing you for calling yourself sabum, so I hope you don't take it that way.

As for Mastercole's statement about a sabum being something along the lines of lead burger flipper or toilet washer, as a single dad who is also an instructor, I am literally, a teacher father, and lead burger flipper and toilet washer have been part of my job description at home for years!


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## MSUTKD (Feb 14, 2012)

Sungsang and Sensei mean, one that has gone before.

Sabum and Shihan mean, teacher of teachers.

Saboo and Shifu mean, teacher as close as a father.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2012)

I was going to post this yesterday, but I did not have the thumb drive with me.  So here it is:

Tae Sa-Nim &#53468;&#49324; &#45784; (&#22826;&#24107;): Grandmaster
Kwanjang-nim &#44288;&#51109; &#45784; (&#39208;&#38263;): training hall owner/ kwan leader.
Sabeom-nim &#49324;&#48276; &#45784; (hanja &#24107;&#31684;): same as shihan; chief instructor. 
Seonsaeng &#49440;&#49373; (hanja &#20808;&#29983;): same as sensei.  Lit. one who has gone before.

My apologies for any incongruence in formatting.


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## RobinTKD (Feb 15, 2012)

I've only just come across this thread, and frankly, it wouldn't surprise me if the TAGB had graded a 26 year old to 8th Dan, and, knowing Dave Oliver, he probably paid a lot of cash for it.

Having said that, that's Lee Hayes, who I know to be a 3rd Dan, and is the only advocate of the TAGB I have any respect for.


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Sungsang and Sensei mean, one that has gone before.
> 
> Sabum and Shihan mean, teacher of teachers.
> 
> Saboo and Shifu mean, teacher as close as a father.



How about Sambonim? What is the japanese equivalent of that, and what does it mean?


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Tae Sa-Nim&#53468;&#49324; &#45784; (&#22826;&#24107;): Grandmaster



Never heard taesanim being used before. Who goes by that title?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2012)

puunui said:


> Never heard taesanim being used before. Who goes by that title?


No idea.  I have been putting together a martial arts dictionary for my personal use for years. I think that the info came from someone here on MT, but I've been here for four years.

What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?


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## puunui (Feb 15, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?



Some say kwan jang means grandmaster; others say chong kwan jang. those that go with the chong kwan jang definition tend to define kwan jang as master.


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## mastercole (Feb 15, 2012)

Originally Posted by *Daniel Sullivan* 


_What title are you familiar with that is translated as grandmaster?_



puunui said:


> Some say kwan jang means grandmaster; others say chong kwan jang. those that go with the chong kwan jang definition tend to define kwan jang as master.



Kwanjang as grandmaster is becoming very common place among you younger generation Korean masters in the USA.  To me it's Taekwondo meaning was the head of a Kwan, so it is odd for me to hear or use that term for anyone else. 

Kukkiwon has a lapel pin for Grandmasters that states in Hangul "Taekwondo Chaego Kodanja Hae"   That matches GM Kyong Myong Lee's Kodanja equals grandmaster statement.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 15, 2012)

some 1st dan calls himself "Master" around me i will be too busy laughing to do much of anything else....


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 15, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> some 1st dan calls himself "Master" around me i will be too busy laughing to do much of anything else....



Do you think this response would say more about you, or about them?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 15, 2012)

good question.

here is teh deal Dog.

the REALLY ironic part is the same org that wants to call 1st dans "master" is the SAME org that thinks 1 year 1st dans are just fine

in short, this org is destroying any meaning behind it's ranks

now, as to your question, what does it say about me? that i will laugh at a good joke, and a 1st dan calling himself "Master" is a friggin joke

what does it say about them? 

well, they may not know any better.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2012)

puunui said:


> Some say kwan jang means grandmaster; others say chong kwan jang. those that go with the chong kwan jang definition tend to define kwan jang as master.


I may not be a Korean, but I have been told by more than one person who is that a kwan jang is either the head of the 'kwan' or is the owner of the school.  Which means that a fifth dan school owner is the 'kwanjang' but not a grandmaster.  

The word doesn't even translate to grand master according to every Korean source that I have consulted.

I'm not being critical; I just don't see the English word 'grandmaster' coming out of the Korean word Kwanjang.  Not being Korean and not being fluent in Korean, I certainly don't hold my perspective as being authoritative.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 15, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I may not be a Korean, but I have been told by more than one person who is that a kwan jang is either the head of the 'kwan' or is the owner of the school.  Which means that a fifth dan school owner is the 'kwanjang' but not a grandmaster.
> 
> The word doesn't even translate to grand master according to every Korean source that I have consulted.
> 
> I'm not being critical; I just don't see the English word 'grandmaster' coming out of the Korean word Kwanjang.  Not being Korean and not being fluent in Korean, I certainly don't hold my perspective as being authoritative.



I'm not fluent either, but I think a lot of these discussions arise simply because the words express concepts that cannot be directly or perfectly translated. Thus, our translations are approximations. Close approximations, hopefully, but inexact none the less.


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## Dirty Dog (Feb 15, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> good question.
> 
> here is teh deal Dog.
> 
> ...



I would say that all it says about him is that he's been told by his seniors that X title is appropriate for Y rank, and follows the teachings he's been given.
My direct instructor is a 3rd Dan. When GM Kim writes to him, he addresses his letters to Master Valdez. That's good enough for me.
Were someone to decide that this is a "friggin joke" simply because it doesn't fall into the conventions they've been taught, would say plenty to me, and none of it really good.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 15, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I'm not fluent either, but I think a lot of these discussions arise simply because the words express concepts that cannot be directly or perfectly translated. Thus, our translations are approximations. Close approximations, hopefully, but inexact none the less.


Agreed.  I would also say that in a school with multiple masters, the school owner is the headmaster, so I could see that a 'grand' master who is over the other masters in authority does make sense.


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## mastercole (Feb 15, 2012)

Call every black belt "master"

That takes away all the hype and BS that came with reaching 4th Dan, levels the playing field.  I mean look at the over inflated view some over inflated 4th Dan's have of their rank.

Then we can really see what a practitioner is made of. It's what a person can do, or could do, and what they have achieved, or will achieve. Of course if they hide in their garage and don't get out in the main stream, then we will never know, will we?????


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## Kong Soo Do (Feb 21, 2012)

Would it not be simplier to do away with terms like master and grandmaster?  Shouldn't teacher and student be sufficient?  It would go a long way towards eliminating or preventing many of the things that come up in threads like this.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 21, 2012)

I don't have any problem with usage of the terms, and I think that it is generally good that the Kukkiwon has formulated the policy as to who gets called what. Having said that, I question whether the way in which they are using the honorific is really the best usage. 

Apparently, the policy is for English speaking countries. Again, I think that it is a good idea, given that western culture has a different set of social conventions and honorifics, but I think that using 'master' in the context of the old version of 'mister' reflect a lack of understanding of how the word, 'master' is presently used and how it was used when it was applied as 'mister.'

But since the policy is org specific, it really doesn't matter. Its not any different than the usage of the term 'officer' being applied to policemen, regardless of rank (so far as I know), while in military usage, officer ranks are subdivided between commissioned and non commissioned and are above that of enlisted soldiers. Nobody complains because one is the police and one is the military.

Likewise, a Kukki taekwondo master is anyone from first to fifth dan, while a master in another organization or another art is something different. So, aside from that the usage is not really in line with western usage of the term, it doesn't matter: that is the designated title for ildan through odan. Ego is usually where the issues arise, which makes no real sense, given that most of the people who complain the loudest are of different organizations or of different arts.

Basically, the Kukkiwon has two broad levels of titles: cadet and officer.  You have ten levels of cadets and ten levels of officers, and if your school uses the chodan-bo or dan bo, you have an officer in training rank.  Officer ranks are divided into upper and lower (high dan and low dan), kind of like commissioned officers and non commissioned officers.  

Those officers who take classes and are certified receive an additional designation based on that certification; such as the instructors classes; kind of in the same way that you have the general rank of sargeant, then the specific ranks of drill sargeant, master sargeant, etc.

Titles are used within an organization to define its structure.  Without the organization, you really don't need anything beyond master/apprentice, teacher/student, coach/athlete, etc.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 21, 2012)

Incidentally, I started a thread a few days ago on the subject of KKW specific ranks and honorifics: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?101310-Kukkiwon-usage-of-honorifics-and-grade


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Apparently, the policy is for English speaking countries. Again, I think that it is a good idea, given that western culture has a different set of social conventions and honorifics, but I think that using 'master' in the context of the old version of 'mister' reflect a lack of understanding of how the word, 'master' is presently used and how it was used when it was applied as 'mister.'



I think the term master is being used as master in the master/mister context. I had an Aunt who would write "master" on christmas and birthday cards, when I was a kid. I think it was the show Family Affair where Mr. French used to address the small boy Jody as "Master Jody".


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## andyjeffries (Feb 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think the term master is being used as master in the master/mister context. I had an Aunt who would write "master" on christmas and birthday cards, when I was a kid. I think it was the show Family Affair where Mr. French used to address the small boy Jody as "Master Jody".



This is common in the UK (to refer to children as Master {Surname}).  My son takes great amusement when I refer to him as Master Jeffries and he always replies with "Yes, Master Jeffries?"


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think the term master is being used as master in the master/mister context. I had an Aunt who would write "master" on christmas and birthday cards, when I was a kid. I think it was the show Family Affair where Mr. French used to address the small boy Jody as "Master Jody".


I'm sure that there are exceptions, and I cannot speak for the whole of the UK, but at least in the continental US, it is definitely not the norm.  As I said, that is the honoric that they assigned to first through fifth dan, so it is appropriate within the organization.  

Not what I would have picked, but I'm not in charge of the Kukkiwon, nor do I feel the need to armchair quarterback every decision that they make.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I'm sure that there are exceptions, and I cannot speak for the whole of the UK, but at least in the continental US, it is definitely not the norm.  As I said, that is the honoric that they assigned to first through fifth dan, so it is appropriate within the organization.



Just to be clear, when I was talking about Master being normal for children in the UK, I meant outside of martial arts.  It's a general title used for male children.  My son is referred to as Master Jeffries because he's under 16 and a boy, it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a 7th Gup ;-)  I would refer to my nephew (if I was being jokingly formal rather than calling him Josh) as Master Holland and he doesn't do martial arts at all.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> Just to be clear, when I was talking about Master being normal for children in the UK, I meant outside of martial arts. It's a general title used for male children. My son is referred to as Master Jeffries because he's under 16 and a boy, it has nothing to do with the fact that he's a 7th Gup ;-) I would refer to my nephew (if I was being jokingly formal rather than calling him Josh) as Master Holland and he doesn't do martial arts at all.


I am curious as to whether this is the case in Canada and Australia.  It is not in the US, but the US is not the only English speaking nation.


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## Archtkd (Feb 24, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> This is common in the UK (to refer to children as Master {Surname}). My son takes great amusement when I refer to him as Master Jeffries and he always replies with "Yes, Master Jeffries?"



This is common courtey title for boys in a large part of the British Commonwealth, including Kenya my native country.


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## TheNinja (Apr 5, 2022)

andyjeffries said:


> "26-year-old eighth degree black belt"
> 
> I know there's been discussions on here before about how people feel about young black belts.  Personally I have no problem with them.  However, I don't think it's right that someone can be an 8th Dan black belt at 26.  I know they couldn't under Kukkiwon rules, but this is TAGB (which I'm sure used to be an ITF offshoot, but is now considered an independent).
> 
> What are your thoughts on this?  How young should someone be before they could be considered an 8th Dan/Grandmaster?


There is NO SUCH THING AS A 26 YEAR OLD 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT. Period! And anyone who passed out these degrees like Skittles is just as fraudulent. The problem with martial arts these days is that it is no longer an “art”. You have fraudulent senseis giving themselves degrees they‘ve never earned. And just like everything else in the USA, martial arts has become a commodity rather than being a discipline. There are very few REAL 5th degrees in the USA and those people are well into their 60’s and 70’s. In Japan, Okinawa, Korea etc there are a handful of TRUE 7th degree and a couple 8th degrees. I’m talking about original disipline, not the tweaked versions where you have a purple belt as your sensei. You have MMA instructors (they are not sensei) who claim to have 8th degrees in 12 different disciplines and they’re 48 years old. It’s a joke. I studied Shodokan in Japan for 10 years in the 90’s under Junkichi and Naryiama Tetsuro and they were very strict when it came to Aikido dans “degree”. We learned about fraudulent senseis in several disciplines most being in the USA and Europe. The problem is that their is really no governance of disciplines. Zero authority. Senseis were basically under the honor system, but “honor“ doesn’t make money. And “honor” is very rare these days mainly confined to the military. Simply put, anyone on this board who claims to be a 6,7,8 dan and is younger than 70 years old, they are full of Schiff and so is the person who handed out that dan. There is ONE 9th dan in Shodokan. So don’t fall for nonsense. Anyone can call themselves an 8th dan, DOESNT mean it is actually TRUE or recognized by the REAL authorities of their disciplines. Hell, I can call myself a “pro” golfer but the PGA doesn’t recognize someone with a 12 handicap as a “pro” and wont allow me on the tour. You are not a Rock Star when you sing karaoke.


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## Yokozuna514 (Apr 6, 2022)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I am curious as to whether this is the case in Canada and Australia.  It is not in the US, but the US is not the only English speaking nation.


Having watched film and TV from the UK I can understand the context of the reference but apart from that I can firmly say that we do not use 'master' in the sense that Andy Jefferies was alluding to in Canada.


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## Tez3 (Apr 18, 2022)

TheNinja said:


> There is NO SUCH THING AS A 26 YEAR OLD 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT. Period! And anyone who passed out these degrees like Skittles is just as fraudulent. The problem with martial arts these days is that it is no longer an “art”. You have fraudulent senseis giving themselves degrees they‘ve never earned. And just like everything else in the USA, martial arts has become a commodity rather than being a discipline. There are very few REAL 5th degrees in the USA and those people are well into their 60’s and 70’s. In Japan, Okinawa, Korea etc there are a handful of TRUE 7th degree and a couple 8th degrees. I’m talking about original disipline, not the tweaked versions where you have a purple belt as your sensei. You have MMA instructors (they are not sensei) who claim to have 8th degrees in 12 different disciplines and they’re 48 years old. It’s a joke. I studied Shodokan in Japan for 10 years in the 90’s under Junkichi and Naryiama Tetsuro and they were very strict when it came to Aikido dans “degree”. We learned about fraudulent senseis in several disciplines most being in the USA and Europe. The problem is that their is really no governance of disciplines. Zero authority. Senseis were basically under the honor system, but “honor“ doesn’t make money. And “honor” is very rare these days mainly confined to the military. Simply put, anyone on this board who claims to be a 6,7,8 dan and is younger than 70 years old, they are full of Schiff and so is the person who handed out that dan. There is ONE 9th dan in Shodokan. So don’t fall for nonsense. Anyone can call themselves an 8th dan, DOESNT mean it is actually TRUE or recognized by the REAL authorities of their disciplines. Hell, I can call myself a “pro” golfer but the PGA doesn’t recognize someone with a 12 handicap as a “pro” and wont allow me on the tour. You are not a Rock Star when you sing karaoke.


A pro golfer is someone who derives money from playing golf, it doesn't have to be on big tournaments or even playing full time. It's literally the opposite of being an amateur. 
I know many honourable people, including martial artists. It's not as rare as you see to think. MMA coaches don't call themselves 'sensei', so it's redundant to tell us they aren't sensei. 
But, hey, thanks for the lecture. Not. 😕


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 18, 2022)

TheNinja said:


> There is NO SUCH THING AS A 26 YEAR OLD 8TH DEGREE BLACK BELT. Period! And anyone who passed out these degrees like Skittles is just as fraudulent. The problem with martial arts these days is that it is no longer an “art”.





Tez3 said:


> But, hey, thanks for the lecture.


I feel TheNinja's pain.  It's sad to watch something degrade over the decades from respectable to shabby, whether it be once grand homes or top black belt ranks.  I too sometimes get peeved at not only the age but sheer number of high blackbelts and red belts out there.  It is ridiculous.

So while TheNinja's post was a little over the top, did contain some inaccuracies, and was over simplified, I agree with the general theme.  The honor system does break down as it depends largely on peer pressure which is not effective when so many millions of practitioners exist with little authoritative oversight.  But that's life.

Yet, there are still schools and individuals who have maintained rank integrity.  The "real" masters out there recognize each other and concern themselves on practicing the true art and self-development while making their students' journey a worthwhile one they can be proud of.


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## Raistlin (Apr 18, 2022)

I believe the biggest reason there were young 8th and 9th Dans back 50 years ago is because it was easier for them to make their mark in the martial arts world back then. At 8th and 9th Dan, it is less about how awesome you are as a martial artist and more about what you are doing to promote your art. Many organizations require that you hold a national or international position within your organization to be promoted to that level. You need to show that you are making an impact and helping to grow your art. That was much easier to do 50 years ago. There were very few TKD schools around the world relative to today. It wouldn't be that difficult to make your mark. Today, there are TKD schools on almost every corner of every city around the world. Much harder to stand out and make your mark today. I think that is the main reason why it now takes much longer to attain the high ranks. Today it is more about your years of service and dedication to your art.
Just my 2 cents.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2022)

I've run into my share of "Young Master Much Faster" guys. It's kind of fun running into a twenty year old 8th degree. But I think there should be a law that we are allowed to de-pants them if we feel like it.

You know, just as a goof.


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## Mider (Apr 19, 2022)

There are some “young” grand masters in Kali, but by young I mean under 60...youngest I ever saw was a guy named Guru Mark Mikita though he ignores the title. Never seen one under 60 that I can recall sept the one I mentioned.

but yeah...most black belts of umpteenth degree are older. One has to be able to do a lot...not just memorize moves, I’m guessing like teach, etc


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 19, 2022)

Raistlin said:


> I believe the biggest reason there were young 8th and 9th Dans back 50 years ago is because it was easier for them to make their mark in the martial arts world back then.


I don't believe this is true.  That's about when rank inflation began with the growing commercialization of MA, which at that time was mostly karate.  Prior to that, I think most systems had better control and authority over high advancement as there were fewer branches and lineages.  Also, the senior teachers of this time learned under the students of the true masters who had high standards.  


Raistlin said:


> At 8th and 9th Dan, it is less about how awesome you are as a martial artist and more about what you are doing to promote your art.


The physical awesomeness peaks out by 6th dan, the practitioner having already proved himself in this area and is approaching or has reached middle age.  After that, deeper understanding of the core concepts, related info such as philosophy, history, something of other styles and such is usually achieved.  Teaching and promoting the art come into play here as you say. For 8th and 9th, exceptional dedication and the recognition of your peers of all the above, as well as having character worthy of respect by them were once the main requirements.


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## Raistlin (Apr 26, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I don't believe this is true.  That's about when rank inflation began with the growing commercialization of MA, which at that time was mostly karate.  Prior to that, I think most systems had better control and authority over high advancement as there were fewer branches and lineages.  Also, the senior teachers of this time learned under the students of the true masters who had high standards.
> 
> The physical awesomeness peaks out by 6th dan, the practitioner having already proved himself in this area and is approaching or has reached middle age.  After that, deeper understanding of the core concepts, related info such as philosophy, history, something of other styles and such is usually achieved.  Teaching and promoting the art come into play here as you say. For 8th and 9th, exceptional dedication and the recognition of your peers of all the above, as well as having character worthy of respect by them were once the main requirements.


What in your mind is a "true master"? Many masters that we revere today such as Hwang Kee, General Choi, Won Kuk Lee, etc. were very young when they founded their own arts. Some of these "true masters" learned from books, watched classes by peaking over fences and practiced on their own. Their arts were in their infancy when they started. They took years of development and experimentation to fully form. What makes them more "true masters" than masters of today? Masters that have dedicated a lifetime of study and dedication to the perfection of their art. While I deeply respect and am indebted to the pioneers of our arts, I don't see them as any more of a "true master" than those that are training today (with the big exception of the McDojo types out there). Unfortunately, there are far more organizations out there that have lowered their standards for promotion, but there are still some out there who haven't.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 26, 2022)

Raistlin said:


> What in your mind is a "true master"? Many masters that we revere today such as Hwang Kee, General Choi, Won Kuk Lee, etc. were very young when they founded their own arts. Some of these "true masters" learned from books, watched classes by peaking over fences and practiced on their own. Their arts were in their infancy when they started. They took years of development and experimentation to fully form. What makes them more "true masters" than masters of today? Masters that have dedicated a lifetime of study and dedication to the perfection of their art. While I deeply respect and am indebted to the pioneers of our arts, I don't see them as any more of a "true master" than those that are training today (with the big exception of the McDojo types out there). Unfortunately, there are far more organizations out there that have lowered their standards for promotion, but there are still some out there who haven't.


You were talking about the time period 50 years ago.  By this time, Japanese karate (shotokan, which was the primary foundation of those Korean masters you mentioned) was already commercialized and had turned into a sport well before that.  

By "true masters," I was referring to those who taught in the late1800's and early 1900's prior to mass instruction: Itosu, Kyan, and Higaonna, and their teachers (and their students in many cases).  These were the guys who were responsible for laying the groundwork for the art that was exported to Japan, and from there to Korea.  They were not products of commercial schools or sport.  They had no organizations to grow and no incentive to promote students.  

The main point to my post was to say your premise of it being easier to be a "master" over 50 years ago than now is not correct - it was just the opposite for the reasons I stated and more.  As you yourself stated, "there are far more organizations out there that have lowered their standards."  This seems to conflict with your original premise. I noticed you did not address this point at all in your reply.

It's not to say there are no "masters" in recent times.  It's just that it is a different MA world now.


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## J. Pickard (Apr 26, 2022)

I mean ultimately, who cares? Call yourself whatever you want, you can't fake it on the mats.


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2022)

isshinryuronin said:


> I feel TheNinja's pain.  It's sad to watch something degrade over the decades from respectable to shabby, whether it be once grand homes or top black belt ranks.  I too sometimes get peeved at not only the age but sheer number of high blackbelts and red belts out there.  It is ridiculous.
> 
> So while TheNinja's post was a little over the top, did contain some inaccuracies, and was over simplified, I agree with the general theme.  The honor system does break down as it depends largely on peer pressure which is not effective when so many millions of practitioners exist with little authoritative oversight.  But that's life.
> 
> Yet, there are still schools and individuals who have maintained rank integrity.  The "real" masters out there recognize each other and concern themselves on practicing the true art and self-development while making their students' journey a worthwhile one they can be proud of.


“Honor” is a pretty abstract grading criterion.   I don’t have a horse in this race, but if a person meets the objective criteria for grading, what’s the problem?

Or does this subjective criteria exist, and you’re saying some schools disregard them?

Just trying to figure out what the problem is.


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## isshinryuronin (Apr 27, 2022)

Steve said:


> “Honor” is a pretty abstract grading criterion.   I don’t have a horse in this race, but if a person meets the objective criteria for grading, what’s the problem?
> 
> Or does this subjective criteria exist, and you’re saying some schools disregard them?
> 
> Just trying to figure out what the problem is.


I think the "honor" system TheNinja and I were talking about refers to not giving out belts based on how much money a student pays you, or advancing them just to say you've got X number of 10 year old black belts, or claiming high rank for business reasons - stuff like that.  But I suppose some promotions are given in good faith by instructors who really_ think_ their student has reached expert skill due to his own lack of it and resulting low standards.  That's sad, too. 

You're right that "honor" is a subjective and abstract term, but most of us can usually recognize it when we see it, or when we don't.


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