# Tactical considerations in self defense



## Juany118 (Oct 30, 2016)

Okay, the purpose of this thread?

The tactical considerations of the martial arts are incredibly varied.  Everything from environment, the sizes of opponents, weapons.  There are some that people may not have considered but others did because of where they live.  As an example in Fairbanks Alaska winter temperatures can last from October through April and some people would be surprised how effective heavy winter coats can be in terms of reducing impact damage let alone perhaps be cumbersome.  In Northern climes they also deal with months of night, so a tactical flash light may be a necessity.  Others may be things that "clicked" only because of an encounter or an occupation.

Regardless I am fairly certain that none of us have considered every possibility so the idea here is for people to share tactical considerations that they keep in mind and/or plan for and the techniques or methods that they use to address them.  I'll start in the first response but I understand if this thread doesn't get a lot of traction because it can appear rather overwhelming but I think it would really help to inform us all.

I would like to set only one rule.

No pissing matches that "style X is superior".  If you see an actual problem with a specific technique that could create a danger feel free to point it out but please keep 2 things in mind.

First, if you are going to criticize a specific technique, provide an alternative.  Just shooting someone down is not constructive.
Second, PLEASE don't say "your style is crap for that learn X if you really want to deal with it".

Also, not a rule but if the considerations are extensive in nature, perhaps separating the posts into seperate posts would help keep things neat.

Oh and note the considerations need not be fighting technique oriented, situational awareness considerations, target hardening etc are all on the table.


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## Steve (Oct 30, 2016)

By self defense, you mean an instance where someone is physically attacking you?   My vote is avoid high risk behaviors, regardless of where you're living, and you'll be in pretty good shape.   don't buy drugs in bad neighborhoods.  Don't drink to excess in public.   Things like that, and youll decrease your likelihood of being a victim of aggravated assault more than the national average of 230 or so out of 100,000 people.


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## Juany118 (Oct 30, 2016)

Consideration 1 from me, keep your environment in mind.  Basics, not talking about being in the "bad lands".

Now what I am going to reference here is about the inanimate environment, as such it's not as effective outside as you are always moving so it's constantly changing but inside it works.  Look for entrances and exits, not just because that is where a threat may enter but sometimes the best defense is retreat.  Also consider what around you is "solid" because if you can not escape finding cover may be the order of the day.  Now if people want LEO specific environmental issues (potential weapons in a typical environment etc.) I will elaborate but that seems a bit of a tangent.


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## Juany118 (Oct 30, 2016)

Steve said:


> By self defense, you mean an instance where someone is physically attacking you?   My vote is avoid high risk behaviors, regardless of where you're living, and you'll be in pretty good shape.   don't buy drugs in bad neighborhoods.  Don't drink to excess in public.   Things like that, and youll decrease your likelihood of being a victim of aggravated assault more than the national average of 230 or so out of 100,000 people.



I will admit this thread is in part informed by my occupation.  I have dealt with victims complete innocent.  They parked their cars at point A, walked to the play house at point B to watch a stage play and got mugged.  In essence this thread is about what do you consider, if you study for self defense, for the "oh crap" scenario. 

That is why I put it on the self defense thread because some people look at martial arts the way other do a condom.  "Better to have one and not need it, than need it and not have one."

Long story short I have learned you can do everything right and still be a victim.


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2016)

Fine.
 If you want to push someone back and also want to avoid heaps of aggression. You can push them with your arm out to the side using your bicept rather than just double palming them in the chest. Saves that angry eye contact. And if they flare up you basically have their back.


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## drop bear (Oct 30, 2016)

Steve said:


> By self defense, you mean an instance where someone is physically attacking you?   My vote is avoid high risk behaviors, regardless of where you're living, and you'll be in pretty good shape.   don't buy drugs in bad neighborhoods.  Don't drink to excess in public.   Things like that, and youll decrease your likelihood of being a victim of aggravated assault more than the national average of 230 or so out of 100,000 people.



Speaking of high risk behaviors.

 if you see your house broken into.  Don't go in there.  Just wait outside for the cops. 

If you do want to go in and scrap with whoever may be inside.  I vote for tuning  the lights on first rather than creeping up on a guy in the dark.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 30, 2016)

Along the lines of what @Steve  posted, every night I go for a jog. It occurs to me each jog when I pushing to go a bit farther; if someone were to attack me now, I'm likely to exhausted to protect myself. I couldn't run away, and my reaction and speed are probably slowed down. While in theory I am training a SD style and preparing myself for that encounter, I am just putting myself in more risk.

I don't mind this as in reality I do it because I enjoy it, but I find it odd that I put myself at more risk by training then I would if I didn't train at all.


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## oaktree (Oct 30, 2016)

*" In essence this thread is about what do you consider, if you study for self defense, for the "oh crap" scenario. "*

First thing I consider is my environment, am I in a rough area, I keep a mental note of anything that can be used to my advantage in most cases any type of weapon near me on the ground, any barriers, etc. 

The second thing I look for is people is there anyone watching me, following me, people grouping together, anything looking out of place.

The third thing I look for if approached by someone or if someone is about to approaching I assume the worse from him.
I will keep my distance of at least 3 feet. 

The fourth thing I keep in my mind is who ever is approaching me is carrying a weapon and wants to kill me.
Having been in situations where people truly have wanted to kill me that is just how I think when approached by strangers.

I am thinking that the oh crap situation has two basic variations 1.some sort of ego driven beer spilling, name calling cut me off in traffic situation and 2.I am robbing, I just want to kill you for fun type of situation. I easily avoid the first one by being well mannered, avoiding places like clubs, bars, apologize, and offer them what ever they want usually an apology and a handshake settles these things fine. If the second one again I assume he has a weapon or friends, and I may draw a weapon first, I may decide to run and hide or I may stand my ground and fight hand to hand, I prefer hand to hand last.

I also consider if there are people watching the fight because they will be witness and testify to the police should they show up so if that is the case I may not draw a weapon and put my hands up palm facing the guy and say I do not want to fight please dont hurt me. I was told by one of my teachers when police show up say I am in shock I need to go to the ER for treatment and I can not answer any questions till after I have been treated and then contact my lawyer at the hospital and have them speak to the police.


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## Juany118 (Oct 30, 2016)

kempodisciple said:


> Along the lines of what @Steve  posted, every night I go for a jog. It occurs to me each jog when I pushing to go a bit farther; if someone were to attack me now, I'm likely to exhausted to protect myself. I couldn't run away, and my reaction and speed are probably slowed down. While in theory I am training a SD style and preparing myself for that encounter, I am just putting myself in more risk.
> 
> I don't mind this as in reality I do it because I enjoy it, but I find it odd that I put myself at more risk by training then I would if I didn't train at all.


And these would be target hardening exercises.  The point is this.  Self defense is a rare occassion, you may never need to use it in your life.  BUT if you tell yourself "I am training this for self defense" and you don't think, in advance, about tactical considerations and then find yourself needing to use it you actually increase, rather than decrease, your chance of injury (imo.)

Now if you aren't training martial arts for real world self defense, no worries.  It is foolish imo however to go to a school telling yourself "this is to defend myself and then consider real world dynamics that don't exist inside the school, target hardening that can help prevent the situation in the first place etc.

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## marques (Oct 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> As an example in Fairbanks Alaska winter temperatures can last from October through April and some people would be surprised how effective heavy winter coats can be in terms of reducing impact damage let alone perhaps be cumbersome.  In Northern climes they also deal with months of night, so a tactical flash light may be a necessity.


I think giving attention to that 'details', in self-defence, is as important as 'physical' skills. Old boys, you still have a chance. 

I thought about that yesterday. Because I put myself a big jacket.
- On the defensive side, I would neglect a bit the body in benefit of my head defence.
- On the offensive side, I would avoid body strikes and favour legs (and head) strikes. Takedowns would be nice, too, since they would fall easier and get up slowly. Quite the same as for fat guys.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> don't buy drugs in bad neighborhoods.



I only buy my drugs in the nicest of neighborhoods. Sorry, Steve, I just couldn't resist that one.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2016)

I think this fits into "tactical" considerations. I travel a lot, so I deal with a LOT of restrictions. Since I don't normally check a bag, I cannot carry most of what people might consider as self-defense paraphernalia (including guns, pepper spray, kubotans, knives, etc.). Since I can't carry them on the plane, and won't have them at the other end, I choose to almost never carry them, at all. I don't want to develop habits of expectation that will slow my responses when those articles aren't handy.

So, I focus more on recognizing weapons I do have available (normal articles plus what's in the environment).


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2016)

Now, for environment. This varies a lot by style. The more a style moves, the more the ground and cluttered area matter.

The more likely you are to use the ground (either going to the ground or putting them there with a throw or takedown) the more the ground matters.

If you use projections (throws that send them away, rather than straight down), then walls and clutter can be useful.


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## Steve (Oct 31, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I only buy my drugs in the nicest of neighborhoods. Sorry, Steve, I just couldn't resist that one.




Tactically, if you're going to buy drugs or take drugs better to stick with legal ones consumed in the privacy of your own home.   That's what I had in mind.  

In Washington, purchasing weed is much safer now than a few years ago, for example.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> Tactically, if you're going to buy drugs or take drugs better to stick with legal ones consumed in the privacy of your own home.   That's what I had in mind.
> 
> In Washington, purchasing weed is much safer now than a few years ago, for example.


Won't be long before you will be able to buy your drugs on Amazon and have them delivered Via drone.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Self defense is a rare occassion, you may never need to use it in your life.


I use self-defense techniques and methods everyday, both inside and outside of my house. If you a person that follows the idea that self-defense has physical and non-physical components then you should be using self-defense everyday.  To some, these techniques and methods may not feel like "self-defense" because it has become the norm of what is done, but it would still be self-defense.

As for the physical tactics the rule is this. "It can happen to me."  I train for the physical side of self-defense because of that statement.  Physical ability and body conditioning takes time.  It's something that I do when during the down times of physical conflicts.  The human mind is strange because some people will say "I don't need it because it not likely to happen to me."  Unfortunately when and if does happen, at that point it's too late to try to improve physical ability and body conditioning.  It's too late to learn how to shoot straight.  It's too late to drop 20 pounds or build up the endurance to run away.  With self-defense, when that "physical" crap hits the fan, I have to be ready to go into action with what I have.

I guess we can look at martial art training (with training focus on a self-defense) and other self-defense training (not seminars) as an activity that ensures or increases readiness.


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## ShortBridge (Oct 31, 2016)

This is a very poignant and relevant topic and I appreciate you starting the discussion on it. I always challenge my students to work through this. Even within my city, the difference between living in the city vs the suburbs brings very different tactical considerations. 

Sure, don't buy drugs off the street or get wasted and stumble out of bars into alleys in the middle of the night. But, I wait at bus stops (or don't wait as bus stops) and that's a major scenario that I consider in my training. Some of my students live just out of town and thus would never, ever find themselves waiting at a bus stop. 

The streets are wet here much of the year, so traction and rooting is important and challenging. It's dark much of the year too, so yeah, 5 months of the year a flashlight is key. 

I think this is one of the more worthwhile conversations I've seen here, so I'll give it at bit more time and promise to participate more when I can.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2016)

Good thread, don't even know where to start.

Running away - if you live in places with cold climate, you're probably wearing heavy coat and boots. If you've never run in heavy coat and boots the option you think you have may not be a reality. If you do run - and get caught, you may be too exhausted too use anything you might normally use. Running in winter gear is tough. I don't mean road work in the winter, you dress differently for that, I mean the everyday stuff you go out in.

If you wear winter boots, and you consider kicking as part of your self defense repertoire, if you haven't actually done a lot of kicking in those very boots you're going to find your timing shot to hell, you're pivoting and grip completely different than anything you're used to or have even considered. On the flip side of that, certain sweeps you do might very well be enhanced, but again, if you haven't trained in those boots, you probably wouldn't know that. And for those who live in warm climates, boots are worn for months at a time by those in cold regions.

If you're wearing a heavy coat, especially with a thick shirt under it, your striking skills, especially if they're similar to western boxing, will be slightly different. Again, timing might be off, elbows which you probably keep close to the ribs, will naturally flare out some due to the clothing. This can slightly change your angles in punching, and even more so if you're used to punching and grabbing. If you live in these cold conditions and wear this stuff months at time, you might consider training in it to see the differences.
And if you haven't grappled in heavy clothing (it sucks) you might want to give that a try.

If you have a fancy pair of pimping shoes that look, oh so trendy, when out on the town, if you've never trained in them, you might be screwed. (Especially leather soles) Look good in the casket, though.

Uneven terrain - if you're downside and he upside, or vice versa, things are different. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

if you are in the unenviable position of having to wear a necktie, be aware that you are, in effect, wearing a hangman's noose. At the very least you are like a horse wearing reigns. It's why cops only wear clip ons. (Always loved subduing guys in neckties).


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## Steve (Oct 31, 2016)

hoshin1600 said:


> Won't be long before you will be able to buy your drugs on Amazon and have them delivered Via drone.


Well, the risk of buying them certainly goes down if they are legal and safely obtained.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Speaking of high risk behaviors.
> 
> if you see your house broken into.  Don't go in there.  Just wait outside for the cops.
> 
> If you do want to go in and scrap with whoever may be inside.  I vote for tuning  the lights on first rather than creeping up on a guy in the dark.



Yeah, maybe, but I always know my house pretty good. Way better than him/them.

But you're  right, if you come home and they've broken in, call the cops....or.....possession being nine tenths of the law, they now kind of belong to you. And if they're armed, good. Old people have very little patience with unarmed home invaders. We take our homes way too seriously.


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## Steve (Oct 31, 2016)

ShortBridge said:


> This is a very poignant and relevant topic and I appreciate you starting the discussion on it. I always challenge my students to work through this. Even within my city, the difference between living in the city vs the suburbs brings very different tactical considerations.
> 
> Sure, don't buy drugs off the street or get wasted and stumble out of bars into alleys in the middle of the night. But, I wait at bus stops (or don't wait as bus stops) and that's a major scenario that I consider in my training. Some of my students live just out of town and thus would never, ever find themselves waiting at a bus stop.
> 
> ...


Hills in Seattle are steep and slippery most of the time.  There are some areas that are more prone to crime than others, and the tent cities and derelict RVs parked all over Seattle also create legitimate concerns for the residents in those areas. 

Of course, it really, really, really depends on what kind of self defense we're talking about.  In Seattle, your chances of being robbed on the street are pretty low...  about 12 per 100,000 residents in a given month.   Your chances of being robbed by someone who is armed are less than half that, around 6 per 100,000 residents, and that's with any kind of weapon.

Aggravated assault is pretty unlikely as well, although far more likely to be domestic violence than random, street violence.  So, reasonable precautions would (should?) include avoiding paranoia.

Homicide is pretty uncommon in Seattle.  For a big city, it's remarkably safe (although I'd probably avoid bebopping around White Center after dark).  We have had 14 homicides in 2016, out of over 600,000 residents.  I didn't dig into those stats to find out whether the victims were engaged in high risk behaviors, but I'd bet some of them were. 

Craigslist is very risky, so if you're looking to sell some things on that site, take some simple precautions to stay safe.


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## Juany118 (Oct 31, 2016)

Okay back to environment, this time "outside" considerations.  I would get into "bad weather" related Buka and Short have done a fair job there already.

So is it summer, do you like those shorts? Going to a ground game is going to be VERY unfriendly.  My co-workers think I am nuts but even in the summer I wear long pants on bike patrol to minimize road rash to knees that can come from a scuffle.

When walking down the street don't check your text messages or FB.  Heck I recommend not even talking on the phone.  Studies have shown talking on a cellphone while driving has a similar negative impact to driving under the influence of alcohol.  If you need to talk or text wait until you are someplace where you can be safely stationary.  All the self defense skill in the world will not help you if you don't see it coming or your reaction time is degraded.  To top it off how many of you will just drop or throw that Galaxy S7 or IPhone 7S at the drop of a hat?

Next route.  At night, even if it takes you out of your way try to follow routes that have street lights.  If impossible a tactical flashlight is advised.  Again perception and reaction time.  

Don't just look at your companion or the ground.  Not only does this reduce your situational awareness but if someone looking for a victim is around it tags you as one.  Someone who is "head up" and obviously aware of their surroundings is someone who the predator looking for prey will pass by.

Also, at night, always try to look a bit down the road, not necessarily for potential threats but groups of people, open businesses.  Again, in a personal self defense situation your safety is paramount.  If you have to stand and fight then do it but if you can get the guy on his butt then go to a group or into a business the bad guy will almost always take off. 



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## Steve (Oct 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> When walking down the street don't check your text messages or FB.  Heck I recommend not even talking on the phone.  Studies have shown talking on a cellphone while driving has a similar negative impact to driving under the influence of alcohol.  If you need to talk or text wait until you are someplace where you can be safely stationary.  All the self defense skill in the world will not help you if you don't see it coming or your reaction time is degraded.  To top it off how many of you will just drop or throw that Galaxy S7 or IPhone 7S at the drop of a hat?
> 
> Next route.  At night, even if it takes you out of your way try to follow routes that have street lights.  If impossible a tactical flashlight is advised.  Again perception and reaction time.


This is just good advice all the way around.  I think the self defense benefits are a stretch for most people.  But seeing what's going on around you helps you avoid walking into signs, into the street or into other physical harm.  And being seen, particularly on dark roads, is a very good idea.  Wearing a reflective vest is also a darn good idea, in addition to carrying a flashlight (tactical or otherwise).


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## Juany118 (Oct 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> This is just good advice all the way around.  I think the self defense benefits are a stretch for most people.  But seeing what's going on around you helps you avoid walking into signs, into the street or into other physical harm.  And being seen, particularly on dark roads, is a very good idea.  Wearing a reflective vest is also a darn good idea, in addition to carrying a flashlight (tactical or otherwise).



Oh I know it's good advice all around but I look at the cell phone thing from an experience my brother had.  He is now a contractor who does rehabs and new construction but used to be someone who rehabbed house to flip or rent as Section 8.  He was in one of "those" neighborhoods, walking from the house to his car talking on his IPhone.  He is now a Samsung guy because he didn't have insurance.  A thug came up, cold cocked him took the phone and ran.  When he got to the store they had a deal on the S5 with a free tablet.  He learned his lesson the hard way.

That said I think two things are often overlooked in TMA classes when it comes to self defense.

1. Overall situational awareness when not in a fight.
2. That sometimes kicking the bad guy in the knee and running to a place of safety is the best course to stay in one piece BUT you need to know where safety is to pull that off.


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## drop bear (Oct 31, 2016)

Steve said:


> This is just good advice all the way around.  I think the self defense benefits are a stretch for most people.  But seeing what's going on around you helps you avoid walking into signs, into the street or into other physical harm.  And being seen, particularly on dark roads, is a very good idea.  Wearing a reflective vest is also a darn good idea, in addition to carrying a flashlight (tactical or otherwise).



Used to be when phones were worth something. Because they were a target for a snatch and grab. Not so much now.


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## Buka (Nov 1, 2016)

Years ago we used to warn against jogging with headphones on. No need any more, cell phones and nifty mobile devices took over. How long do you figure you would have to wait to find somebody not paying attention because they were preoccupied by their mobile device? Five minutes?

Or just a nice snatch and grab.






It's like attacking lambs drinking water.


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## drop bear (Nov 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> Years ago we used to warn against jogging with headphones on. No need any more, cell phones and nifty mobile devices took over. How long do you figure you would have to wait to find somebody not paying attention because they were preoccupied by their mobile device? Five minutes?
> 
> Or just a nice snatch and grab.
> 
> ...



I have seen dudes grab handbags from a car.  That gets pretty intense.


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## Ademadis (Nov 1, 2016)

What shoes I'm wearing is normally a quick consideration for me. Kicking quickly in walking boots is normally a lot harder than in trainers.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> Years ago we used to warn against jogging with headphones on. No need any more, cell phones and nifty mobile devices took over. How long do you figure you would have to wait to find somebody not paying attention because they were preoccupied by their mobile device? Five minutes?
> 
> Or just a nice snatch and grab.
> 
> ...


Yeah, this is one of the ongoing challenges in teaching SD. More and more, people are absorbed with something that's not in their real environment (as opposed to their virtual environment). I've even started talking a bit about how to use your smartphone in public, making sure you're not entirely absorbed in the screen in an area where awareness should be higher. For instance, an airport is a relatively safer territory, given the lack of weapons and presence of security, than a street corner.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

Ademadis said:


> What shoes I'm wearing is normally a quick consideration for me. Kicking quickly in walking boots is normally a lot harder than in trainers.


Agreed, and kicking high-ish is more risky in dress shoes with leather soles than in trainers.


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## Buka (Nov 1, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, this is one of the ongoing challenges in teaching SD. More and more, people are absorbed with something that's not in their real environment (as opposed to their virtual environment). I've even started talking a bit about how to use your smartphone in public, making sure you're not entirely absorbed in the screen in an area where awareness should be higher. For instance, an airport is a relatively safer territory, given the lack of weapons and presence of security, than a street corner.



And just last night I barked at a half dozen different folks who were crossing the street (against a green light) pulling their suitcases, heads down reading things on their phones as cars just missed them. There was no beeping of horns, though, the drivers were too preoccupied either looking for the passengers they were supposed to pick up, reading posted signs to see where they were supposed to go - or looking at their phones.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

Buka said:


> And just last night I barked at a half dozen different folks who were crossing the street (against a green light) pulling their suitcases, heads down reading things on their phones as cars just missed them. There was no beeping of horns, though, the drivers were too preoccupied either looking for the passengers they were supposed to pick up, reading posted signs to see where they were supposed to go - or looking at their phones.


Yikes! Yep, there the street meets the airport. It's reasonably safe inside. Outside there be cars with distracted drivers.


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## drop bear (Nov 1, 2016)

If you are fighting on a slippery surface prevention is achieved by picking your ground to fight on.  

Otherwise almost anything can send you to the deck.  And the cure is being able to recover quickly.

The reason for this is if you are fighting and you don't have the coolest head you are inclined to throw bombs. 

So there are your good safe falls but they can also land you a bit vulnerable to follow up attacks. 

You can increase the risk of falling a bit harder with the pay of of springing up and reengaging more quickly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 1, 2016)

drop bear said:


> If you are fighting on a slippery surface prevention is achieved by picking your ground to fight on.
> 
> Otherwise almost anything can send you to the deck.  And the cure is being able to recover quickly.
> 
> ...


Either you're replying to someone I have on ignore, or you're not as coherent in this comment as you usually are. Or I've suddenly developed some form of reading disorder. I can only reply to the first point, because I'm lost on your last three sentences.

I agree about awareness of your surroundings and retreating to better ground if possible. There can be limitations (sudden attacks, for instance) that take that choice away, but that's a situation with less control in almost every way.


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## drop bear (Nov 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> Either you're replying to someone I have on ignore, or you're not as coherent in this comment as you usually are. Or I've suddenly developed some form of reading disorder. I can only reply to the first point, because I'm lost on your last three sentences.
> 
> I agree about awareness of your surroundings and retreating to better ground if possible. There can be limitations (sudden attacks, for instance) that take that choice away, but that's a situation with less control in almost every way.



It was a more nuanced idea than i really had the ability to express well.

There are all these little side issues that make up risk and reward of fighting on unsafe ground.

If you want to get up quick you have to fall half getting up.

If you fall half getting up you could just cripple yourself during the fall.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2016)

drop bear said:


> It was a more nuanced idea than i really had the ability to express well.
> 
> There are all these little side issues that make up risk and reward of fighting on unsafe ground.
> 
> ...


AH! That makes sense. Yeah, that's true for many falls. One of the things I work with students on is how to go from a good fall (more important on hard surfaces than on the mats - training on dirt and practice on carpet reminds me of that) to a defensive position as quickly as possible.

Makes me want to have a suit made of grappling mats - take my damned mats with me, I will!


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## Mattattack (Nov 2, 2016)

Interesting convo.  Important too.  Most people think Self Defense is punching and kicking and not as simple as paying attention on the walk to the car.

 An Aikido teacher I met told me a story that I retell to lots of people when we talk about self defense: "I was visiting some old friends in Chicago, but my wife and I had to park on a bad block.  When we went to get our car, we saw a group of teenagers looking us over before backing into a shadowy alley between us and our car.  We went the other way and came back later.  That was the best Aikido I ever did."

I think its a great story because it illustrates how martial arts is only a part of self defense.  And on that note, I wanted to share this chart that I have used when I taught some very basic self defense to illustrate that same point.


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## Juany118 (Nov 2, 2016)

Mattattack said:


> Interesting convo.  Important too.  Most people think Self Defense is punching and kicking and not as simple as paying attention on the walk to the car.
> 
> An Aikido teacher I met told me a story that I retell to lots of people when we talk about self defense: "I was visiting some old friends in Chicago, but my wife and I had to park on a bad block.  When we went to get our car, we saw a group of teenagers looking us over before backing into a shadowy alley between us and our car.  We went the other way and came back later.  That was the best Aikido I ever did."
> 
> I think its a great story because it illustrates how martial arts is only a part of self defense.  And on that note, I wanted to share this chart that I have used when I taught some very basic self defense to illustrate that same point.


A nice take on the UoF continuum we use at work.  Also a very true lesson.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 18, 2016)

When in a crowded bar, I would always walk through the throngs of drunken people with one hand on my chest, as if I were constantly scratching it. This is because I did not want my hands to be both pinned to my sides if some alpha male approached me to start something. It might sound silly, but there was actually a time where I deflected someone's attempt to give me a one-handed shove. By the time the deflection was over, I had my other hand up...and they reconsidered taking it any further.


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## wingchun100 (Nov 18, 2016)

This one happened when I wasn't even on foot.

I remember driving home from a bar with my girlfriend. We were going up a one-way street when a black SUV turned on the road behind us, and the driver gunned the car so that he caught up to us. They were right on my tail. I came to a stop sign and took a left. Behind us, the SUV paused at the same sign, took a left, and once again GUNNED THE ENGINE so they were right on top of us again. At this point we were almost home, but I drove past my house.

My girlfriend said, "Why did you go past your place?"

I said, "I'm not stopping at my house so this weirdo behind us knows where I live. I'm going to see if he keeps on following us...right to the police station in downtown Troy. Get your phone ready to call 911 because if he is still following us when we're almost there, I want you to call and let them know so they can tell some cops to be outside the precinct waiting for this idiot."

As it turned out, we didn't have to do that because the next time I took a turn, the SUV went in the opposite direction.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 18, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> When in a crowded bar, I would always walk through the throngs of drunken people with one hand on my chest, as if I were constantly scratching it. This is because I did not want my hands to be both pinned to my sides if some alpha male approached me to start something. It might sound silly, but there was actually a time where I deflected someone's attempt to give me a one-handed shove. By the time the deflection was over, I had my other hand up...and they reconsidered taking it any further.


I have some similar habits. I also always choose a seat in a restaurant that gives me the best tactical view I can get from that table. I prefer if I can see the door and the cashier - the two places I judge most likely for something to happen in most restaurants. I also prefer the aisle seat on a airplane, because I'd have some reasonable access to anyone causing trouble.


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## drop bear (Nov 18, 2016)

wingchun100 said:


> When in a crowded bar, I would always walk through the throngs of drunken people with one hand on my chest, as if I were constantly scratching it. This is because I did not want my hands to be both pinned to my sides if some alpha male approached me to start something. It might sound silly, but there was actually a time where I deflected someone's attempt to give me a one-handed shove. By the time the deflection was over, I had my other hand up...and they reconsidered taking it any further.



You also just get that gumby who wants to lalk with their hands. And wind up dodging slaps to the face that way.


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## RTKDCMB (Nov 20, 2016)

Buka said:


> And just last night I barked at a half dozen different folks who were crossing the street (against a green light) pulling their suitcases, heads down reading things on their phones as cars just missed them. There was no beeping of horns, though, the drivers were too preoccupied either looking for the passengers they were supposed to pick up, reading posted signs to see where they were supposed to go - or looking at their phones.


Just the other day I saw a young girl with her head down looking at her phone walk straight into a banner in the middle of a shopping center. She was not hurt so it was still funny.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 20, 2016)

drop bear said:


> You also just get that gumby who wants to lalk with their hands. And wind up dodging slaps to the face that way.


I, unfortunately, am that gumby.


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## Brian King (Nov 20, 2016)

From a forum post I wrote a number of years ago.

This seat or that one over there?

Being mindful is a skill that can and in my opinion should be trained. For instance, when driving a vehicle watch the traffic flow ahead of you and watch your rearview mirror for activity coming up behind you, this will allow you more time to avoid or deal with situations before or as they occur. Most I think would agree that this is not paranoia this is commonsense. Habit would be watching the traffic patterns and flow, skill/art would be not only watching them as they develop but being able to accurately predict them before they occur. How do you get to this level....by being aware and practicing. You can easily make a sort of game of it. Watch the traffic in front of you and out loud predict when that vehicle three or ten cars ahead is going to switch lanes, see someone rapidly approaching from behind, move over and predict how many seconds until they pass, see someone tailgating a slower moving obstacle make a mental bet on how long before they will pass the obstacle or the slower vehicle moves over, if they will get around it legally, and if there will be retaliation by either driver. 

When arriving at an unfamiliar destination (like a restaurant)  take an extra minute to work on your patience. Do not take the very first parking stall you see but drive around the building first. Notice things. How many exterior doors are there? Can you drive completely around the building or is it blocked off? Get a feel for the immediate neighborhood i.e. a bunch of youths hanging out on this side, lights out over here, camera’s on this side etc. Awareness must be practiced to be developed and maintained. After unobtrusively ‘peeking’ around the building go ahead and park, but, first take a moment to figure out where you should park. Do you want to be able to observe your vehicle from inside the building (if the building has windows)? If there are windows or they mirrored or frosted? If it is night can you see into the building while those in the building cannot see out? Can you park in a manner that allows you to more easily exit the area when your business is finished (this can mean backing in to the parking spot, closer to the end of the parking row, closer to the exit (but further from the building) from the parking lot)?  

Walking into a unfamiliar building, before you open the door, pause and take a moment. Clear your head of distractions and take note of the current state of your psyche and if needed return it to neutral. Note if the entrance door pulls or pushes to open? Pause once inside (some like to step to the side a bit which can be a good habit depending on local customs and situations) and let your eyes and ears and ‘gut’ adjust to the incoming information. Take note of the feel of the establishment and the patrons. Look around briefly but see as you do so. Remember those exterior doors, match them up to exits that you can see. Many restaurants and bars have kitchen doors that lead to the outside and many stores have docks and back hallways that open to the outside, but these are kept from view from the general population and clients but can be handy to know about. Are there choke points inside the building for example stairs or those narrow doorways leading from one large room to another?  When walking into a bar/club that has a bouncer I generally make some eye contact, shake their hand and subtly give them a cash tip then I ask them where the restrooms are and where the back exit is and thank them for the information. I often do the same thing with a hostess at a restaurant. When walking thru or observing a place take note of the people in and around. For example, that big fat guy in seat 12 C (aisle seat) might make a good bullet shield if terrorists (or the law taking back) decide to storm the plane while that little skinny guy 13 D would make a good bludgeoning tool if thrown just right....

Where to sit. The location of where to sit is a series of compromises, decisions and priorities, Bad guys and good guys both, often try to sit with their backs to the walls, this can be good or bad depending on the context. Walls do a surprisingly poor job stoping bombs and bullets but they can keep someone from approaching unseen. Sitting near the restrooms is convenient but high traffic and low mood setting, sitting near the kitchen is also convenient but can be loud and high traffic as well. Is that perfect booth on a far side of a choke point between it and an exit? That table by the window allows a view of the parking lot but windows can be a danger during an earthquake or bomb blast. Is there lots of glass wear on the tables, how heavy are the tables and chairs? Are there fire sprinklers in the ceiling? 

The compromises, decisions and priorities are easy to live and deal with if just few minutes of prior thought goes into them. Take an inventory of what kind of emergencies might be faced, which again depends on lifestyle, customs, and circumstances and give a little thought to how to deal with each. You will soon notice that many of the emergencies have similar responses. Fires and bomb blasts, active shooters or nutty ex’s, just joking...but not really. Need fire extinguishers, they are often located one behind the bar or the little room behind (under) it, a couple in the kitchen area and one by the lavatories. Need first aid kit, again kitchen area is a good place to look and behind the bar will have a lot of ‘bar rags’...yes they might look and smell gross but they are alcohol soaked. Crowd stampeding to the main exit then the one behind the bar or in back of the kitchen might be a quicker safer way out of the building. Someone pepper spraying the room and fires can produce the same emergency reactions re- the toxic and blinding fumes, knowing in advance not only where the nearest exit is but how to get there ‘blinded’ is easiest if you first ‘looked’. Lights out. the light switches or often near the open end of the bar, in the restroom they are near the door (your phone makes a good flashlight if needed)

Depending on life style, local customs and individual circumstances most will never face an emergency while out in public yet some reading this will. Having a plan with forethought responses makes sense and contributes to success. Make your responses more efficient by making habit your mindfulness and awareness and making playful your training them. If with another person, bet them on how many fire extinguishers or first aid kits are in the immediate area and ask the waitress, waiter or stewardess for confirmation. 

If you have never experienced a crowd in panic/rage and how contagious and powerful that arousal can be I recommend strongly that some exposure training be sought out and applied. _Hint_ Systema

One last be definitely not least thought. There is strength in numbers, if in an emergency situation, find somebody weaker than yourself, someone injured, someone needing help and help them. At best we can save another and set the example for others to follow and at worst selfishly putting someone under our own care forces a sense of calmness and gives added strength and awareness and adds to our own chances of survival. Panic, calmness and courage are all contagious. 

Regards
Brian King


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## Buka (Nov 21, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> I have some similar habits. I also always choose a seat in a restaurant that gives me the best tactical view I can get from that table. I prefer if I can see the door and the cashier - the two places I judge most likely for something to happen in most restaurants. I also prefer the aisle seat on a airplane, because I'd have some reasonable access to anyone causing trouble.



Back to a wall with a view of the door, always. No exceptions, ever. Or I'll just leave and eat somewhere else, reservations be damned. Over the the top? No more than a seat belt in a car. Just a given.

As for air planes - anybody, at least anybody who's in a protective business of any kind what-so-ever, who doesn't have an aisle seat - is an idiot. A complete, unprepared and utter idiot.


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## Steve (Nov 21, 2016)

Brian King said:


> From a forum post I wrote a number of years ago.
> 
> This seat or that one over there?
> 
> ...


just a point of trivia, exterior entrance doors in commercial space or any door that is along the path of an emergency egress should always push (i.e., swing out) when exiting a building so that there is a clear and unobstructed escape path.  This is an OSHA standard, and also has implications under ADA.  The ADA guidelines are more about clearance requirements, but commercial space built or remodeled within the last 30 or so years should comply. 

This is the opposite of most houses and apartments, where the outside doors almost always swing in. 

While it may or may not be something anyone's ever thought about overtly, when a building doesn't conform to this norm, you end up with a lot of folks running into the door when leaving because they expect it to push and it doesn't.


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## Brian King (Nov 21, 2016)

Steve said:


> just a point of trivia, exterior entrance doors in commercial space or any door that is along the path of an emergency egress should always push (i.e., swing out) when exiting a building so that there is a clear and unobstructed escape path. This is an OSHA standard, and also has implications under ADA. The ADA guidelines are more about clearance requirements, but commercial space built or remodeled within the last 30 or so years should comply.
> 
> This is the opposite of most houses and apartments, where the outside doors almost always swing in.
> 
> While it may or may not be something anyone's ever thought about overtly, when a building doesn't conform to this norm, you end up with a lot of folks running into the door when leaving because they expect it to push and it doesn't.



This is a good point, Steve. There are ways to open a door for example when the crowd behind you is not giving you room to open the door but it is not easy. Some doors can get blocked by debris or explosions, heck even heat and ice can block an exit. Just working a door knob or push latch can fluster folks in distress or in the dark. Opening the door in 'uncooperative' crowd should be practiced and experienced at least once.

Regards
Brian King


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## drop bear (Nov 21, 2016)

Dont run into a fight by climbing a barrier. Your hands are occupied and you can get punched. Run around instead.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 23, 2016)

Buka said:


> Back to a wall with a view of the door, always. No exceptions, ever. Or I'll just leave and eat somewhere else, reservations be damned. Over the the top? No more than a seat belt in a car. Just a given.
> 
> As for air planes - anybody, at least anybody who's in a protective business of any kind what-so-ever, who doesn't have an aisle seat - is an idiot. A complete, unprepared and utter idiot.


Unfortunately, most of my flights are booked by client companies. They will try to book an aisle seat, but won't seek a different flight if no aisle is available. I fly enough that I can usually move myself to "premium" seating after the flight is booked to remedy the situation.


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## Buka (Nov 24, 2016)

Steve said:


> just a point of trivia, exterior entrance doors in commercial space or any door that is along the path of an emergency egress should always push (i.e., swing out) when exiting a building so that there is a clear and unobstructed escape path.  This is an OSHA standard, and also has implications under ADA.  The ADA guidelines are more about clearance requirements, but commercial space built or remodeled within the last 30 or so years should comply.
> 
> This is the opposite of most houses and apartments, where the outside doors almost always swing in.
> 
> While it may or may not be something anyone's ever thought about overtly, when a building doesn't conform to this norm, you end up with a lot of folks running into the door when leaving because they expect it to push and it doesn't.



Good points And playing off of this - 

If you are in a large crowd - that panics and stampedes. (concert, ballgame etc) if you find yourself running with crowd, do so with your hands up in a high guard. Should the crowd reach a door that will not, for whatever reason, open, the crowd in back will keep coming. You don't want your arms by your side, you'll get crushed. You'll want them free to push yourself up over everyone else (pushing down on shoulders and heads). If you have a small child with you, or two kids, pick them up and hold them high so you can push them over the top of a crushing crowd as well.

Same holds true for someone in front falling - and the domino effect takes place, you don't want your arms pinned to the side then, either.

While the likelihood of this taking place is minimal at best, it works well and doesn't even need to be practiced (we have) just filed away in the memory.


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## drop bear (Nov 24, 2016)

If you are in a decent sized gang fight don't go runing off on your own after someone. If you get caught outnumbered then you are going to have a bad day. 

Also if your friend gets dropped then you need to be standing over him.  If he presents a free shot then someone will probably take it.


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## Juany118 (Dec 9, 2016)

A combo of tactical considerations + style.  Every fighting system or Martial Arts I have studied has a few Laws that can't be broken.  They have A LOT of Rules however.  Rules, unlike laws, can be bent.  Do not treat the Rules of your chosen methods as Laws.  I have a co-worker who was a great high school and college wrestler, even coached High School teams until time became a premium.   He gave himself concussions because he insisted, on tarmac, doing a picture perfect takedown that he did on the mat.  Train so that the reality of self-defense outside the school is accounted for.

Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


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## Gerry Seymour (Dec 11, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> A combo of tactical considerations + style.  Every fighting system or Martial Arts I have studied has a few Laws that can't be broken.  They have A LOT of Rules however.  Rules, unlike laws, can be bent.  Do not treat the Rules of your chosen methods as Laws.  I have a co-worker who was a great high school and college wrestler, even coached High School teams until time became a premium.   He gave himself concussions because he insisted, on tarmac, doing a picture perfect takedown that he did on the mat.  Train so that the reality of self-defense outside the school is accounted for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920P using Tapatalk


This is a good idea, even outside self-defense considerations. Any Rule that practitioners elevate to Law immediately restricts what's possible within the style. This can be resolved two ways: 1) "In X style, there is no such thing as Y. That's the principle, and anything Y is not part of X style. During (a fight/sparring/training/etc.) we occasionally do things that are not actually X style, so if Y is the right answer, we might use that." 2) "In X style, there's a general rule that Y doesn't fit with what we do. Let me show you an exception where Y is entirely appropriate within X style, because we need something beyond the core principles."


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## MaxRob (Dec 11, 2016)

Indeed the tactical considerations are very situational, and varied, even in one's best training there will be a new situation to face
Practice tequniques  in every possible situational setting, self defense is a live event it needs to be taken with absolute seriousness, after all it can save your life.
One's training can be challenged by every variation of attack
Strength,speed ,technique,weapons,etc etc,
Awareness of one's position and how to act swiftly, often to evade all and get out without confrontation balanced against the position of being pinned and forced to defend.
Some of us have high to v high pain thesholds, these are an ace in the hole as it were in physical confrontations, as I have mention before in these forums, but overconfidence in this can be an undoing.
Selfe defense is also about keeping ones mouth shut,not talking about what you are doing , keep it a secret with yourself, let your oponent(s) find out the hard way!


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