# Goodwill or Devaluing of the Art?



## Wo Fat (Aug 9, 2011)

My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts,  freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge.  We  are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to  gain.

One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give  discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition.  Admittedly, we  have done both.  The main reason was to get people in the door and on  the mat.  If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who  received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to  be."

But there is the notion that when you give away or deeply discount the tuition, you are devaluing the Kenpo/Kajukenbo arts. 

How do people feel about discounts, comps, etc.?  Bad idea?  Goodwill?


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts,  freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge.  We  are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to  gain.
> 
> One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give  discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition.  Admittedly, we  have done both.  The main reason was to get people in the door and on  the mat.  If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who  received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to  be."
> 
> ...



IMO, I dont see anything wrong with things like 6 weeks for $99.  This gives the potential student an opportunity to try out your classes, get a feel for what the school is like, the people, etc.  If they want to join, great.   Of course, the cost of the other classes will probably be higher.  If they dont, all that was lost/gained, was $99.  

I dont see doing something like that, as devaluing the art.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 9, 2011)

in THIS economy, you do what you have to to get them on the mat. You know what REALLY devalues the art? not having anyone to teach it to


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## sfs982000 (Aug 9, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> in THIS economy, you do what you have to to get them on the mat. You know what REALLY devalues the art? not having anyone to teach it to



You certainly hit the nail on the head Twin Fist, you have to be somewhat creative nowadays to recruit new students and keep the ones that you do have.  I've know alot of instructors that have had good students fall under hard times financially and have worked out payment plans and other ways to keep the students in the school without having to lose them completely.


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

I know people that teach for free or for a minimal cost.  IMO, those people aren't devaluing the art, they're helping to keep it growing.


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## Wo Fat (Aug 9, 2011)

MJS said:


> I know people that teach for free or for a minimal cost.  IMO, those people aren't devaluing the art, they're helping to keep it growing.



I hear you.  Let me ask you this: in an area that is dominated by TKD schools that fetch $100+ per month, am I devaluing Kenpo/Kaju by charging much less (when I believe that we offer much more martial arts for the money)?


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## MJS (Aug 9, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> I hear you.  Let me ask you this: in an area that is dominated by TKD schools that fetch $100+ per month, am I devaluing Kenpo/Kaju by charging much less (when I believe that we offer much more martial arts for the money)?



IMHO, no.  Why?  Most likely because you're not running a mcdojo.   IMO, its about the quality over the quantity.  Quality of the students, vs. how many students, how many black belts you have, etc.  For me, I'd rather have 10 quality students, who I know, know their stuff, and can use it to defend themselves, instead of having 100 students, 50 of them BBs, of those 50, 40 are under 10 with a 1st or 2nd degree BB.


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## Wo Fat (Aug 10, 2011)

MJS said:


> IMHO, no.  Why?  Most likely because you're not running a mcdojo.   IMO, its about the quality over the quantity.  Quality of the students, vs. how many students, how many black belts you have, etc.  For me, I'd rather have 10 quality students, who I know, know their stuff, and can use it to defend themselves, instead of having 100 students, 50 of them BBs, of those 50, 40 are under 10 with a 1st or 2nd degree BB.



It would be useless and silly for me to try and play devil's advocate with that^  

Now, we understand the mcdojo business model from the school owner's perspective -- it's bottom-line driven.  But what is the customer/student's perspective?  In other words, why would martial arts students pay twice as much for a happy meal when they could get a gourmet meal everyday at half the price?


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## Balrog (Aug 10, 2011)

We do one month free instruction for prospects, figuring that at the end of the month, they will be willing to sign up full-time.  If they don't, shame on me as an instructor.

I will waive monthly dues in special cases.  For example, I've got a single mom with two kids in my school.  In this economy, she's having a bad time making ends meet.  She'll come in every once in a while and give me a check for whatever she can.  But I know she'll be good for it; if nothing more, when she makes her Black Belt, I'll get it back from her in "sweat equity" when she starts teaching lower rank classes.

I'd like for my school to be in the black (wouldn't we all!).  But I am fortunate enough to be able to carry it for a while as we are getting built back up.  Offering reduced rates on sales, etc., IMNSHO does not "cheapen" the art.  As was said earlier, if you have no one to teach, it's a moot point.  And to me, the students benefitting from learning martial arts overrides a little financial crunch on my part.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 10, 2011)

The cost you charge depends on your goals as a school.  If you are trying to make a living thru your school, then you gotta charge.  If you give tuition breaks to get people in the door, and that gets them started and they stay for the long haul, and they are happy with the training they get for the price they pay, then there is nothing wrong with that.

In and of itself, charging less or nothing at all doesn't devalue anything.  It just comes down to your goals and needs as an instructor, and finding students who are in agreement with that.

I have two students.  I do not charge anything, for various reasons.  I can state with certainty that my students do not see it as being devalued at all.  I'm not interested in charging for it, and that doesn't lessen the value for my students.  They can recognize quality when they see it.


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## MJS (Aug 10, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> It would be useless and silly for me to try and play devil's advocate with that^
> 
> Now, we understand the mcdojo business model from the school owner's perspective -- it's bottom-line driven.  But what is the customer/student's perspective?  In other words, why would martial arts students pay twice as much for a happy meal when they could get a gourmet meal everyday at half the price?



IMHO, it comes down to a combination of: not having any understanding of the arts, and an overall misconception of the ranks.  If school 1 told the perspective student that they didn't accept kids under 8 and they'd have to wait at least until they were 16 before they could even think about getting a BB, or school 2, where a 3yo could enroll and they'd be sure to get a BB in 2yrs...well, like I said, given that many dont have a clue and they think the BB is some magical thing, they're probably going to go with school 2.  

People want everything now...they dont wanna wait.  So, if it means getting what they want, quicker, they'll gladly pay.  Do you think the school owner is complaining? Of course not. LOL.  He's getting paid, so what does he care.  He's happy, the parents are happy, because little Johnny and Suzie are happy...happiness all around. LMAO!!!  Johnny and Suzie could suck but again, as long as they're wearing that belt......

Think about it....if your boss at your job said to you, that instead of working 40hrs, you could work 10 and still get paid for 40.  You'd be a fool to turn that down.  You're doing less than half the work but still reaping the benefits of those that actually do work 40hrs.  How does this relate to belts?  The people that put in the 40hrs, are busting their ***, the ones that put in 10, are not.


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## Carol (Aug 10, 2011)

It sounds to me as if you aren't sure which way you want to go with your business.  Do you have a formal business plan in place?  

Are you going to go non-profit and cater to students in need?  Or are you going to go commercial and maximizing your earning power while still staying true to the level of rigorousness you want to teach?  

Who is your target market?  Is it experienced martial artists that are already familiar with Kaju?  Or is it beginners starting out?  Tough to turn a profit on experienced MAists, yet fresh beginners don't have the knowledge or experience to know what they are looking for yet.  And alllllll of the schools in town say they're special because of (fill in the blank).


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## Wo Fat (Aug 10, 2011)

*FC*

You hit the nail on the head.  Frankly, I don't know which came first ... the under-educated public who thinks that 7-year-old Black Belts is the norm, or the schools that award them.

*Carol*

You know the old saying ... "_everybody fighter has a plan until they get hit_"?   Well, yes, I have a business plan.  A very good one, I thought.  But then reality has a nasty left hook.  The reality--in my area--is that the people willing to pay $150 a month, either want name-brand MMA or they want Tae Kwon Day Care.


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## Cyriacus (Aug 10, 2011)

Its my opinion that how much is Charged, and Free Lessons, and whathaveyou, are not devalueing the Art.

How can actually having Students to teach be devalueing the Art? I mean, imagine youve NEVER done ANY MA. You walk in to a Dojo after a couple of weeks of thinking about it, only to be told you need to pay a fee to even try it out.
So you might say, watch a Class.

Heres the thing about Watching a Class. Thats easy for us MAists to say, because we know what were looking at. To any beginner, theyd just see motions, and perhaps conclude that its too hard/complicated for them to bother even trying. Take Kata, for example. If someone had no idea what it was, or how it worked, watching it be done wouldnt benefit their decision at all. In fact, the only thing people will clearly understand is bagwork or sparring, since it requires no prior knowledge to comprehend.

In short, such concessions are necessary for the SAKE of the Art.


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## Danjo (Aug 11, 2011)

The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.


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## Yondanchris (Aug 11, 2011)

Danjo said:


> The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.



Right ON! 

That's why I love teaching for almost nothing (all of our monthly dues are donated to people who reach lives in other countries). I think it preserves the Ohana that Danjo was talking about while continuing the tradition and training. If we all charged a million dollars a month our arts would only have a few people to carry on the flag. If we are 
to continue out arts we must consider that our martial ancestors often charged nothing for training, at worst it was a barter relationship for necessary commodities to sustain life. My current instructor charges me very little for the level of instruction given, it has become more of a Ohana thing than a "professional" relationship. I am looking forward to talking about this at the 2011 Kenpo Ohana in September to try and motivate the "seniors" with all the red to adopt the "ohana" mindset (I am not saying that all seniors do not do this, in fact several I have met are the very pillars of "ohana" in our community) 

My rambled and ignorant .02 cents! 

Chris


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## Wo Fat (Aug 11, 2011)

Danjo said:


> The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.



<Like>

The key word is "customer".  And it seems that the McDojo industry has convinced the customer that they are always right.  Maybe I'm not devaluing the art ... maybe the McDojo's are.


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## Carol (Aug 11, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> <Like>
> 
> The key word is "customer".  And it seems that the McDojo industry has convinced the customer that they are always right.  Maybe I'm not devaluing the art ... maybe the McDojo's are.



Absolutely.  You aren't devaluing the art for teaching for less, or free, but the folks that are promoting black belts with crappy stances and poor execution...that's devaluing the art itself.  

I hope that something will work out for your school :asian:


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## Twin Fist (Aug 11, 2011)

well, if you charge nothing, some students will not value the art. You charge them something, even if it is a token, they will show up. Free? they can stay home and not train, cuz they are not invested.....


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## MJS (Aug 11, 2011)

Danjo said:


> The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.



Good points!!  This is why these things should be clearly explained to the perspective students up front.  IMO, a quality school will do just that.  If people dont like what they hear, they're free to leave.  You're right...it keeps the art pure, and those that do stay, are most likely there for reasons other than to get a belt every month.


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## OKenpo942 (Aug 17, 2011)

All I can say is that I am greatful to my instructor, who when I was 13 yrs old and came to him and told him that I could no longer come to class, said "don't worry about the money, you have too much ability to quit". He is truly a good man with a love for the preservation and continuance of our art and for people. 

His gift of Kenpo to me will never be forgotten and I hope to do the same for people in the future. To me, there is no better gift than to give and expect nothing in return. His return was not for himself, but for the gift itself. That it will continue to be taught as he taught it (or as closely as possible). Thank you, sir.

James


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## Wo Fat (Sep 8, 2011)

OKenpo942 said:


> All I can say is that I am greatful to my instructor, who when I was 13 yrs old and came to him and told him that I could no longer come to class, said "don't worry about the money, you have too much ability to quit". He is truly a good man with a love for the preservation and continuance of our art and for people.
> 
> His gift of Kenpo to me will never be forgotten and I hope to do the same for people in the future. To me, there is no better gift than to give and expect nothing in return. His return was not for himself, but for the gift itself. That it will continue to be taught as he taught it (or as closely as possible). Thank you, sir.
> 
> James



That's a great point.  And, IMO, the right thing to do.  But when it comes to giving a friend (or the friends children) the "hook-up", then ... well, experience has taught me that in many cases, people will assign a corresponding value to what they've been given.  In other words, "_if it didn't cost much then it probably ain't worth much_".  Certainly not everyone feels that way.  But those people do exist.


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## KenpoDave (Sep 24, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> My colleague and I have been discussing the issue of discounts,  freebies, etc., regarding the tuition and other fees that we charge.  We  are both fairly young schools (2 years) and have some experience to  gain.
> 
> One issue we've been discussing is whether it's a good idea to give  discounts on tuition -- or in some cases, free tuition.  Admittedly, we  have done both.  The main reason was to get people in the door and on  the mat.  If we started off with "charter" or ground-floor" students who  received discounts, hook-ups, etc. it would look like "the place to  be."
> 
> ...



I have a couple of questions:

Is this working for you?  Are the discounts and tuition breaks helping to increase your membership?
Is the quality of your students less than what you hoped for, what you were hoping for, or better than expected?
How do your students feel about the discounts given to others?


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## Milt G. (Sep 24, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> well, if you charge nothing, some students will not value the art. You charge them something, even if it is a token, they will show up. Free? they can stay home and not train, cuz they are not invested.....



Good points...  I tend to agree.  
Milt G.


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## Milt G. (Sep 24, 2011)

Carol said:


> Absolutely. You aren't devaluing the art for teaching for less, or free, but the folks that are promoting black belts with crappy stances and poor execution...that's devaluing the art itself.
> 
> I hope that something will work out for your school :asian:



Hello...
I agree.
But what are the standards, and who should set them?

If the teachers are qualified to promote, and they promote students that lack certain...  I will say; "qualities", what can be done about it?

I think one problem may be the variations in opinion on what is a good stance, kick, block or punch.
Some set the standards too high, some too low.  So, what is the answer...?  The middle, perhaps?  But, "Who's" middle?
The $60,000. question.

Good point you made, I think?
Milt G.


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## Wo Fat (Sep 24, 2011)

KenpoDave said:


> I have a couple of questions:
> 
> Is this working for you?  Are the discounts and tuition breaks helping to increase your membership?
> Is the quality of your students less than what you hoped for, what you were hoping for, or better than expected?
> How do your students feel about the discounts given to others?



Hi Dave:

1.  The students who received free tuition were not very committed and ended up quitting.  So no; the idea that we could get some bodies on the floor by offering free tuition to friends, did not work.  That said, the discounted rates have helped to retain a few students.  

2.  Right now we are finding that we have martial arts "students" and martial arts "customers".  Every instructor wants high quality, committed, and regularly training students.  I would have settled for 10% of the latter but we are lucky to have about 25%.  Of that 25% of high quality students, most of them are paying full tuition.  

3.  Well, those students who were either comp'd or heavily discounted, have gone.  But there was a time when one or two parents began to wonder if the comp'd kids was paying any tuition at all since they were absent so often.  So I'd say that some students' (parents) weren't happy to be paying full tuition while others didn't.  But as of now, the only discounts are family discounts and they are publicly posted.

Good questions.  Makes one realize that you can be as passionate about martial arts as you want, but passion isn't a substitute for sound business practices.


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## KenpoDave (Sep 25, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> 2.  Right now we are finding that we have martial arts "students" and martial arts "customers".  Every instructor wants high quality, committed, and regularly training students.  I would have settled for 10% of the latter but we are lucky to have about 25%.  Of that 25% of high quality students, most of them are paying full tuition.



Sounds like you have found your core group, and you can build from that.  25% is a decent population to start with.


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## decepticon (Oct 6, 2011)

What got me and my 12yo daughter started about a year ago was one free, introductory class, month to month payments - no long term contracts, no need to buy a gi or any special equipment until at the higher levels, and a great instructor. 

I do think that people often assign little value to that which costs them nothing, so perhaps you could consider a work study type of program where students short on cash can work some of the debt off by helping keep the facility clean, helping with a website, handing out flyers at demos, etc. We have worked out a barter arrangement with our instructor, however my husband is a professional videographer and photographer and we are bartering the cost of his services (to develop teaching materials for sale that the instructor wanted but couldn't afford to have made) for classes.

I think the main surprise for me as part of the completely uninitiated public was to discover that BB's are not created equal. Now that seems so obvious, but I previously had no idea that was the case. I just assumed there was some sort of standardization. So be sure to let potential students and their families know what your program consists of and encourage them to compare it with others by gathering the proper information so that they can compare "blacks to blacks".


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## Wo Fat (Oct 7, 2011)

decepticon said:


> What got me and my 12yo daughter started about a year ago was one free, introductory class, month to month payments - no long term contracts, no need to buy a gi or any special equipment until at the higher levels, and a great instructor.
> 
> I do think that people often assign little value to that which costs them nothing, so perhaps you could consider a work study type of program where students short on cash can work some of the debt off by helping keep the facility clean, helping with a website, handing out flyers at demos, etc. We have worked out a barter arrangement with our instructor, however my husband is a professional videographer and photographer and we are bartering the cost of his services (to develop teaching materials for sale that the instructor wanted but couldn't afford to have made) for classes.
> 
> I think the main surprise for me as part of the completely uninitiated public was to discover that BB's are not created equal. Now that seems so obvious, but I previously had no idea that was the case. I just assumed there was some sort of standardization. So be sure to let potential students and their families know what your program consists of and encourage them to compare it with others by gathering the proper information so that they can compare "blacks to blacks".



Thanks, deception.  Ironically, the last paragraph of your post is very timely.  We have found that the Tae Kwon Day Care facilities in our area are having an easier time convincing the public that their 10-year old black belts are equal to an adult Kenpo black belt.


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## decepticon (Oct 7, 2011)

How about you counter with something like:

"Many people are surprised to learn that not all black belts are created equal. Each martial arts discipline has their own unique number/color of belts to award and each one determines their own requirements for each belt, including the black belt. While the general public often considers a Black Belt to be the mark of a martial arts expert, somone who can vanquish all enemies, the truth is that in some disciplines a black belt merely indicates that the student has attended classes for a prescribed number of months and has paid to move up in belt ranking at regular intervals. That is why some disciplines can award a black belt to children, who have put in a certain amount of time, but who would not be capable of defending themselves against an adult attacker.

In the kenpo discipline we teach, the belt rankings are based primarily on achievement and proficiency, with a black belt indicative of a high level of competency and ability to defend one's self and others. It normally takes students approximately X number of years to achieve this rank and most continue training beyond that point to further polish their skills."

Can you tell I have a degree in public relations???


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## Wo Fat (Oct 7, 2011)

Beautiful.  And yes, you are definitely a PR person (and it sounds like a good one at that!)


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 8, 2011)

Danjo said:


> The more one charges, the more the "Customers" will come to expect. They will expect to be promoted (or have their kids promoted) at a certain pace. Try to fail a student in a test when they have paid a lot of money for the testing fee and see what happens. They will expect to be treated like they are your employers etc. etc. I'd rather have students than customers even if that means teaching for free. That way, we can train how we want to, kick out whomever we want to, run the class like we want to, promote only those that deserve it and test when we want to. If they dont like it, they know where the door is. It keeps the art pure. Those that stay and persevere are Ohana. Those that don't learned something about themselves too.


You know, I absolutely agree. While I do have some students I keep in touch with from when I was teaching commercially, I feel as though I can develop the two students I am currently teaching for free than I could have developed them when I had a dojo to run, assistants to monitor and develop, drama to qwell, late past-due accounts to follow up on, records to keep, multiple promotional engagements, belt tests, etc etc, AND still had a lot of students to teach. I definitely agree that I prefer students to customers.


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## Buka (Oct 8, 2011)

Tests. They are pass/fail. If everyone passes every test, is that really a test? The day a student becomes a "customer" is the day the death knell sounds for what Martial Arts stands for.


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## Twin Fist (Oct 9, 2011)

if you charge they are customers, but there is no automatic pass.


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## Wo Fat (Oct 9, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> if you charge they are customers ...



True ... in the abstract.  I have put this challenge to our students: "are you a martial arts student or a martial arts customer"?  Students understand that the tuition they pay represents their commitment to the existence of the school--for the sake of their fellow students as well as the instructor.  Customers, on the other hand, don't even contemplate those things.  They show up when they show up; their kids get to play and go "ha yah!" for a half-hour; go home; and think precious little about the school or what they've learned or what's left to learn.


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## decepticon (Oct 9, 2011)

Wo Fat said:


> True ... in the abstract. I have put this challenge to our students: "are you a martial arts student or a martial arts customer"? Students understand that the tuition they pay represents their commitment to the existence of the school--for the sake of their fellow students as well as the instructor. Customers, on the other hand, don't even contemplate those things. They show up when they show up; their kids get to play and go "ha yah!" for a half-hour; go home; and think precious little about the school or what they've learned or what's left to learn.



Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.

Not everyone wants or needs the same thing from martial arts. For some little kids, it may be the only situation in their life where they are required to be physically active, to obey someone else's rules, or to seek balance or self control. Is there anything wrong with charging for teaching them to do those things? Other people are looking for self defense skills, and can hopefully receive them in MA classes. Most of them will not reach BB level. Yet others are seeking to achieve the very highest levels of MA practice possible for themselves.

But I don't see that these things have to be mutually exclusive. Piano teachers have dozens, maybe even hundreds of unmotivated students, forced by their parents to plod along through the Little Donkey song, and only a handful of truly talented students who will pursue higher levels. Should they quit teaching (or charging) just because not all of their students have the talent, focus, or drive to excel? Should they refuse to provide instruction to those who probably won't take it very seriously?

I am viewing this as someone who has just come on board from the outside (only about a year in MA). I think sometimes many of the instructors/high level folks here are too close to the forest to see the trees. It is okay to provide a MA experience for those who are unlikely to take it very far. It is okay that many students only go as far as their money, skill, time, talent, or interest will take them, which isn't very far through the belts. It is wonderful that a special few students have the combination of those attributes all together at the same time and are able to take MA to a very high level. And in my opinion, it is fine that an instructor will vary the approach and expectations to meet each of these students where they are, provide quality services to help them meet their goals, offer targeted products of interest to each group, and charge a reasonable fee for doing so.


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## Wo Fat (Oct 10, 2011)

decepticon said:


> Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.



I have found that having both is inevitable.  It's a natural consequence of being in business (and like Twin Fist said, if you charge then you're in business).  More than anything, it's a mental adjustment.  Especially for a long-timer in the martial arts.  

I'm not complaining about anymore, though.  It's a privilege to run a business, and the reality is that once in a while I'll get someone who wants to be the old-school "student".


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 13, 2011)

decepticon said:


> Is it wrong to have both? I'm not judging here, just trying to understand.Not everyone wants or needs the same thing from martial arts. For some little kids, it may be the only situation in their life where they are required to be physically active, to obey someone else's rules, or to seek balance or self control. Is there anything wrong with charging for teaching them to do those things? Other people are looking for self defense skills, and can hopefully receive them in MA classes. Most of them will not reach BB level. Yet others are seeking to achieve the very highest levels of MA practice possible for themselves.But I don't see that these things have to be mutually exclusive. Piano teachers have dozens, maybe even hundreds of unmotivated students, forced by their parents to plod along through the Little Donkey song, and only a handful of truly talented students who will pursue higher levels. Should they quit teaching (or charging) just because not all of their students have the talent, focus, or drive to excel? Should they refuse to provide instruction to those who probably won't take it very seriously?I am viewing this as someone who has just come on board from the outside (only about a year in MA). I think sometimes many of the instructors/high level folks here are too close to the forest to see the trees. It is okay to provide a MA experience for those who are unlikely to take it very far. It is okay that many students only go as far as their money, skill, time, talent, or interest will take them, which isn't very far through the belts. It is wonderful that a special few students have the combination of those attributes all together at the same time and are able to take MA to a very high level. And in my opinion, it is fine that an instructor will vary the approach and expectations to meet each of these students where they are, provide quality services to help them meet their goals, offer targeted products of interest to each group, and charge a reasonable fee for doing so.


Oh I don't have a specific problem with commercial instruction, I was just saying I enjoy teaching privately at this juncture in my life.


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## senseishane (Nov 23, 2011)

To me, and this is personal, teaching is a very noble profession when done with the right motivations.  Whether you make it your living, teach privately and part time, or even share with a friend or acquaintenance who needs it, it is noble.  We are all human beings and can share from each others experiences and knoweldge.  Having said that, I'm always about helping prospective students afford classes in whatever way I can.  I'm a firm believer that if they are in the dojo learning, they are growing (even if only through absorption sometimes).  I have no issue with discounting dues/fees when there is a true need, but having said that, it is never pleasant to feel like you are being taken advantage of as well.  If someone cannot truly pay, okay - I'll help - but don't take advantage of the kindness if you are not really in need.

If you can afford to discount instruction/promotions/merchandise, then go for it.  I see no issues with it.

Over the years of teaching, this "loose policy" has worked well most of the time and even led to some people coming in that would not (or could not) otherwise have started in classes.

Just my .02


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