# *Spoiler* UFC 91



## atinsley (Nov 15, 2008)

So, what are your thoughts on the fights; mainly Joe/Kenny and Randy/Brock?

I was really surprised that Joe gave up his back like that and that Kenny was able to submit him so quickly. 

The main event, while a decent fight, was not what I was hoping for. One good punch is all it takes, but I didn't feel that the punch that Brock landed was a solid hit, it appeared to be a glancing shot to me; I am at work, so I was watching the fights from across the center (42" tv @ about 75' away).

While I don't take anything away from Brock, he did beat the champ, I don't believe he deserves the title in the sense that he didn't belong in a title fight at this point in his career.
---------------------
Brock Lesnar beat Randy Couture by second-round TKO (strikes)
Kenny Florian beat Joe Stevenson by first-round submission (rear-naked choke)
Dustin Hazelett beat Tamdan McCrory by first-round submission (arm bar)
Gabriel Gonzaga beat Josh Hendricks by first-round TKO (strikes)
Demian Maia beat Nate Quarry by first-round submission (rear-naked choke). 
Aaron Riley beat Jorge Gurgel by unanimous decision. 
Jeremy Stephens beat Rafael dos Anjos by third-round TKO (strikes)
Mark Bocek beat Alvin Robinson by third-round submission (rear-naked choke)
Matt Brown beat Ryan Thomas by second-round submission (arm bar)


----------



## Skpotamus (Nov 15, 2008)

I just hate seeing someone in a title shot not because of skill, but because of shear size and strength.  Lesnar had a 40lb weight advantage at weigh-ins and probably a good deal more by fight time.  

A superheavyweight division has been needed for quite a while now in MMA for the huge guys like Sapp, Lesnar, and others.


----------



## jarrod (Nov 16, 2008)

i would kind of hate to see a super-heavy division.  lesnar is the exception to men his size in that he is very quick, athletic, & well conditioned.  most super heavies don't have a real advantage over smaller heavyweights past the 1st round.

i also had a feeling that randy would lose.  mma has been on a string of upsets for a couple of years now.  i do think lesnar got his shot prematurely.  does this put frank mir back in the running?

jf


----------



## thetruth (Nov 16, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> I just hate seeing someone in a title shot not because of skill, but because of shear size and strength.  Lesnar had a 40lb weight advantage at weigh-ins and probably a good deal more by fight time.
> 
> A superheavyweight division has been needed for quite a while now in MMA for the huge guys like Sapp, Lesnar, and others.




Look the UFC is about money and Lesner is a cash cow.   Even though he looked good against Herring (and I assume Randy), Frank Mir made him look pretty ordinary so I reckon unless his Jiu Jitsu improves dramatically someone like Mir who is almost as big but can grapple very well will take that title from him pretty quickly.   

Cheers
Sam:asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 16, 2008)

So, this is what, Lesners first win?  (No, not trying to be a smartass)


----------



## hpulley (Nov 16, 2008)

No, not his first win, he'd won twice before this fight (and lost to Mir).  He has been handled carefully by the UFC and the one good submission artist he went up against (Frank Mir) beat him with a leg lock (good choice against a wrestler).  He is a strong striker and has good wrestling.  If he can pick a better ground game he could be quite complete.

Actually, while I agree that Lesnar didn't deserve the title shot he was matched up perfectly to go up against Randy who is essentially a smaller, older wrestler with some good stand up.  Randy isn't great on the ground either (had Sylvia on his back for a full round and couldn't get a choke in while Fedor had him tapping in 30s) so he didn't have any advantage over Brock.  I'm not at all surprised at the result and wonder if Randy just came back for one more fight to bury the hatchet with Dana and the UFC before fully, really, retiring for good.

The UFC can basicially choose how long Lesnar keeps his belt.  Unless Lesnar can train up a BJJ BB real quick any good submission fighter with a good chin will be able to beat him but he can probably take on most of the pure bangers and ground 'n pounders the UFC has to offer.  Fedor would make very quick work of him.  Gonzaga or Big Nog could probably take it from him too but really the heavyweight division is pretty shallow right now.


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 16, 2008)

Lesner is being hamdle with kids glove so they can make money off of him, Randy was great and is good still but youth is so much stronger and Randy is just getting old. I will really like to see Lesner fight someone his size and age.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 16, 2008)

I was hoping for Randy but Lesnar is a difficult match up for him.  It is unfortunate that someone with this low a skill set level in MMA is now the UFC Heavyweight Champ.  Very sad.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 16, 2008)

atinsley said:


> So, what are your thoughts on the fights; mainly Joe/Kenny and Randy/Brock?
> 
> I was really surprised that Joe gave up his back like that and that Kenny was able to submit him so quickly.
> 
> ...


 

One the Brock Randy fight the shot shown during the fight live did look glancing. On one reply from the other side showed it did Bounce Off but that wripple of impact was there on Randy. 

I wanted Randy to win. 

I thought Randy would win. 

But in the Light Heavy and Heavy Weight Classes any punch can be the end of the fight.


----------



## tshadowchaser (Nov 16, 2008)

you have to remember that Brock walks around with a body weight of close to 300 most of the time.  He is one incredibly strong person 

I think over time he will improve on those areas he is lacking in at this time


----------



## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 16, 2008)

After watching it on the link that manakuamu posted in the other thread that last shot really looked either weak or a miss.  With that I mean the final big hit.  Still I would not call it a fix just that it looked more like a miss.


----------



## MJS (Nov 16, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Look the UFC is about money and Lesner is a cash cow. Even though he looked good against Herring (and I assume Randy), Frank Mir made him look pretty ordinary so I reckon unless his Jiu Jitsu improves dramatically someone like Mir who is almost as big but can grapple very well will take that title from him pretty quickly.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
And Kimbo was the cash cow of EliteXC and eventually got beat.  I was hoping for the win for Randy, but hey, what can I say.  I do give Randy a ton of credit, as he has some great stand up, takedown defense and escapes.  

Of course, Mir is a better grappler than Lesnar, Randy is no slouch either, so one has to wonder....if it stayed on the ground more, I'd be willing to bet the outcome would be different.


----------



## thetruth (Nov 17, 2008)

MJS said:


> And Kimbo was the cash cow of EliteXC and eventually got beat.  I was hoping for the win for Randy, but hey, what can I say.  I do give Randy a ton of credit, as he has some great stand up, takedown defense and escapes.
> 
> Of course, Mir is a better grappler than Lesnar, Randy is no slouch either, so one has to wonder....if it stayed on the ground more, I'd be willing to bet the outcome would be different.



Not necessarily as Randy isn't known as a submission artist and as mentioned earlier Randy had Tim Sylvia's back for almost a whole round and couldn't finish him.  I think Mir and Noguera(spelling?) are glad Lesner won.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


----------



## matt.m (Nov 17, 2008)

I saw Lesnar win the NCAA Wrestling championship in St. Louis in 2000.  It was cool.  He piddled in the WWE and got hammered on drug charges and other legal matters.

He did win a few fights.  1 in Japan against a judoka that he outweighed by a large margin.  I forgot about his next opponent.  Mir took him out.  Interesting enough with all things considered I thought Mir beating him was an upset.  I was pulling for "Captain America".  

2 wins and 1 loss in MMA does not a champ challenger make.  Karo Parisyan is an awesome judoka, gi or no gi doesn't matter.  Where is his title shot?


----------



## punisher73 (Nov 17, 2008)

matt.m said:


> I saw Lesnar win the NCAA Wrestling championship in St. Louis in 2000. It was cool. He piddled in the WWE and got hammered on drug charges and other legal matters.
> 
> He did win a few fights. 1 in Japan against a judoka that he outweighed by a large margin. I forgot about his next opponent. Mir took him out. Interesting enough with all things considered I thought Mir beating him was an upset. I was pulling for "Captain America".
> 
> 2 wins and 1 loss in MMA does not a champ challenger make. Karo Parisyan is an awesome judoka, gi or no gi doesn't matter. Where is his title shot?


 
Randy only had 3 fights in the UFC before they gave him his first title shot.  Randy has had trouble in the past with bigger skilled opponents.  That was why he dropped down to the LHW division.  Randy only came back when he saw Sylvia's skills and knew that he could beat him and came back up to HW.  Randy kind of messed up the HW division by quitting the UFC, they then had to pick Noguera/Mir to fight for the interim title at the end of the Ultimate Fighter season.  Then suddenly, Randy comes back and fights after a 15 month layoff and they have to find an opponent for him to fight and since the two top contenders for the title were already signed, they chose a big name/rising star that had draw power.

Yes, Lesnar is a big name draw but unlike Kimbo he was an NCAA Champion wrestler so he does have some legitimate skills.  

As far as Karo goes, he was in line for a title shot and then got injured and then lost a couple.  He will have to work his way back up in a VERY stacked weight class.


----------



## BrandonLucas (Nov 17, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Randy only had 3 fights in the UFC before they gave him his first title shot. Randy has had trouble in the past with bigger skilled opponents. That was why he dropped down to the LHW division. Randy only came back when he saw Sylvia's skills and knew that he could beat him and came back up to HW. Randy kind of messed up the HW division by quitting the UFC, they then had to pick Noguera/Mir to fight for the interim title at the end of the Ultimate Fighter season. Then suddenly, Randy comes back and fights after a 15 month layoff and they have to find an opponent for him to fight and since the two top contenders for the title were already signed, they chose a big name/rising star that had draw power.
> 
> Yes, Lesnar is a big name draw but unlike Kimbo he was an NCAA Champion wrestler so he does have some legitimate skills.
> 
> As far as Karo goes, he was in line for a title shot and then got injured and then lost a couple. He will have to work his way back up in a VERY stacked weight class.


 
I didn't stop to think about the whole issue of Randy being out of UFC for 15 months when I started reading this thread.  I have a problem with Lesnar getting the title shot, simply because it doesnt' appear that he earned it.  But the problem, like you mentioned, is who are they gonna put up against the champ in the UFC?  Not too many HW's to choose from, and Lesnar does have star power.

The way I see it, Lesnar's next fight is going to be either Noguiera or Mir, and I'm pretty confident he'll lose that fight.  Sure, he's got a fair ground game, but he's a *wrestler*, not a submissionist.  He'll have good defense against the subs, but that's all he's going to do on the ground, other than ground-n-pound....and the ground-n-pound is only provided he's given a dominent position.

I didn't get to see the fight, but I didn't figure on Randy winning this one...that's not to say that I didn't want him to win...I was pulling for him, definitely.  I just think he's getting too old...you have to wonder is someone younger would have been able to weather the punches better...or if he was younger himself, I'm sure he would have held up better.

Now, on the other side of the coin, I think that once Lesnar starts learning subs, he's going to be a dangerous opponent.  The biggest weakness that I can see in him is his legs.  They are nowhere as built up as his upper body is, and he doesn't use them other than to move around and sprawl.  The thing about him is that he's so big, I don't think there's a HW that can stand up with him and win.  He's almost certainly going to have to be taken to the ground to be defeated, and then, his opponent is going to have to work for an effective sub.

Bottom line, I don't see Lesnar staying the HW champ for long...but I can see him making a comeback after learning some BJJ.


----------



## DavidCC (Nov 17, 2008)

Lesnar won but that doesn;t mean he deserved to be in there.  I know the UFC is a business and Lesnar brings in all that pro-wrestling-fan money, but long term the UFC is selling it's soul (what's left of it).  The guy's best talent is his size.  He's about as exciting to watch as NASCAR on TV (oh, wait, same fans  )  what a yawner.  I've been turned of the HW division for a while, this seals it for me; I won't be buying any more PPVs with HW headlners any more.  It's guys like BJ, GSP, ken-Flow, these are exciting fighters to watch... But I will watch Nogueira-Mir, those guys are what the HW division should be.

Maybe UFC needs a circus freak division, get Sapp and Giant Silva and some of the freak shows from Japan over here.  just don't call'em "Champs"


----------



## tempus (Nov 17, 2008)

If I am not mistaken, Randy was already weak at the knees from some other hits.  The last one was what closed it.

I am of the opposite mind set from some others. I watched it because of Lesnar fighting or I would have skipped watching the fight.  He beat a champ and got the title.  In my mind he is the champ until someone takes it away.

-Gary


----------



## BrandonLucas (Nov 17, 2008)

tempus said:


> If I am not mistaken, Randy was already weak at the knees from some other hits. The last one was what closed it.
> 
> I am of the opposite mind set from some others. I watched it because of Lesnar fighting or I would have skipped watching the fight. He beat a champ and got the title. In my mind he is the champ until someone takes it away.
> 
> -Gary


 
I agree.  He is the champ.  He got the title by beating the champ.  That much is clear.

What I don't agree with is the fact that he was put in the situation to beat the champ.  Why didn't the UFC decide to wait until after the Mir/Noguierra fight for Randy to defend the title?  They don't have that much longer to go, really.  And it would have given Randy more time to prepare since he spent so much time out of the Octagon.


----------

