# Brit Boy Scouts cant have pocket knives



## Archangel M

*Scouts to no longer bring penknives on camping trips*



> New advice published in Scouting, the official in-house magazine, says neither    Scouts nor their parents should bring penknives to camp except in "specific"    situations.





> "I think it is safest to assume that knives of any sort should not be    carried by anybody to a Scout meeting or camp, unless there is likely to be    a specific need for one. In that case, they should be kept by the Scout    leaders and handed out as required."



Good Lord.


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## girlbug2

I was never a Scout, but it seems to me that pocket knives would come in handy in a variety of wilderness situations. Isn't the idea of Scouts that you teach the kids some survival skills for the wilderness?


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## Omar B

I joined the scouts pretty much because I could get a knife from my dad.  This is crazy.


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## grydth

On the one hand, it is their own country and their own scouting program, to do with as they see fit.

But the USA is _our_ country, and we need to guard against those far lefties, enamored of all things European, who would seek impose these things upon us.

Okay for them; just plain silly in the USA.


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## Bob Hubbard

Scouting without knives?  What next, they take out the archery and rifle parts too?  Also fire starting?

Sheesh.


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## Omar B

All that's left is a bunch of dudes in the woods dressed silly.


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## arnisador

Sheesh. It's lunacy.


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## Msby

Next thing you know, they won't be taught how to start a fire...


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## bekkilyn

Good grief! I was using a pocketknife since I was practically a baby. I remember my dad giving me one and teaching me how to use it well before I joined the Brownie scouts. And of course I still had one as a Girl Scout when I grew out of the Brownies.

I can't believe that little British kids would be using these pocketknives against each other as weapons. Come on!


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## Tames D

Well, the criminals win another round.

We take knife safety very seriously and give the kids extensive training. I don't ever recall hearing of a boy scout using his knife to harm another person or slashing a little old lady while helping her cross the street.

And the Brits call the French sissy's?


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## Bob Hubbard

Will they be requiring mommy to stick around and wipe their runny noses and fetch them their tea in the morning too?


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## Blindside

Well, lets remember that its in the US that some moron interpreted the "no weapons policy" at schools to include the armaments of action figures.  

As a scout that probably managed to own (and lose) enough knives over the course of my scouting career to equip at least a patrol and possibly a smallish troop, I'm pretty unimpressed with whatever logic went into this decision.  I'm pretty sure Lord Baden-Powell would be turning over in his grave.  The totin' chip gave training on both the use of knives and tools, but also on how and when to use them.


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## Ken Morgan

Sad.

I was in scouting for 15 years. We were not allowed a knife of any kind in cubs, once you got to Scouts you could have a pocket knife. If you wanted a sheath knife, you had to pass a safety test. The first time you screwed up, the knife was gone for x period of time, if you screwed up again, you were not allowed to have a knife at all. 

Stupid questions, how are they going to cook and eat their dinners without knives? How are they going to chop wood for a fire? Because if they take away a pocket knife, surely they should take away an axe and a hatchet. Both one Hell of a lot more dangerous then a pen knife.

This must get back to the UK banning people from carrying knives. Iaido practitioners in the UK are allowed to have swords. In a similar vein, the scouts should be exempt and allowed to have their knives.


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## Tez3

Bob Hubbard said:


> Scouting without knives? What next, they take out the archery and rifle parts too? Also fire starting?
> 
> Sheesh.


 

It's only ADVICE, not a law. Scouts here..they dropped the Boy bit years ago, will still take them to camp scout leaders have said. they always were pretty regulated. Scouts here don't do archery or anything to do with guns....guns the army, navy and RAF cadets do. 

it's not the law guys, it's actually what has been done for ages. Okay have you finished ripping us to pieces now?


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## Bob Hubbard

Sadly it sounds like your version of scouting is missing the heart of the whole idea.  That, is what I'm ripping.

I learned proper knife handling in Scouts. Learned to handle a rifle, learned to shoot a bow, learned to camp and make small traps, and 'create' water if lost in the woods, and use a compass. Learned to make a leantoo, and pitch a tent, and start a fire with flint n steel, and make it a safe fire that doesn't burn the woods down. Learned to whittle too, and sharpen a blade, and that one should not go spear fishing in a in ground pool and that one shouldn't get caught with the camp rangers daughter. (We won't get into those last two, k?)

So many of those activities involved having a knife. It was a big deal to -earn- the right to carry one.

So there's the source of my 'ripping'.  I'd say the same thing if I heard the US branch was doing the same, except I'd be more blunt in my comments.


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## Blindside

Tez3 said:


> it's not the law guys, it's actually what has been done for ages. Okay have you finished ripping us to pieces now?





> *New *advice published in Scouting,





> Troops leaders however have said *the decision* is "very sad".



It doesn't sound like it has been done for ages, given that there is controversy within the scouts themselves about what appears to be a new regulation, and that there is several quotes about the change, it doesn't sound like what was traditionally done either.

I don't know how the scouting tradition works in the UK, but here is the US it has a heavy heavy outdoor influence.  I understand that the UK has a different relationship with firearms as the US, fine, but knives?  The knife is the fundamental tool to outdoor survival, and a group called "scouts" is going to ban it?  Have the UK scouts had a rash of intra-scout stabbings?  Something that might actually give a reason for the ban?  Or is this simply an organization that isn't willing to stand up and educate their charges and the general public about the real use of the knife?  Education reduces fear, and it is simple fear that is driving these knife laws.  Quite frankly it doesn't sound like the example of leadership that scouting is supposed to be representing.  I'd be tearing into our scout associations equally badly if they suggested such a regulation.


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## Archangel M

Tez3 said:


> Okay have you finished ripping us to pieces now?



Ripping US?? to pieces? Sorry but that seem a little sensitive considering...

We are bemoaning the Scouts being deprived of training and experience with what is probably one of THE fundamental human tools for surviving in the outdoors. It's the young men in your country that we are voicing our concern over...if you folks dont see a problem with it thats your affair. Just our opinion.


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## lklawson

girlbug2 said:


> Isn't the idea of Scouts that you teach the kids some survival skills for the wilderness?


No.

That's merely the traditional mechanism used for achieving the stated goals of Scouting which have always been citizenship and personal improvement.

*U.S. Boy Scouts:--*
Pledge: On my honor, I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law, to help other people at all times, to keep myself physically strong, mentally awake, and morally straight.​Moto:Be Prepared​Law:A Scout is Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.​Slogan:Do a good turn every day.​*U.S. Cub Scout :--*
Cub Scout Promise:I, (say your name), promise
    to DO MY BEST
    To do my DUTY to GOD
    And my Country
    To HELP other people, and
    To OBEY the LAW of the Pack​ Law of the Pack: The Cub Scout follows Akela.
    The Cub Scout helps the pack go.
    The pack helps the Cub Scout grow.
    The Cub Scout gives goodwill.​  
Cub Scout Motto: DO YOUR BEST

​  Don't get me wrong.  I'm a big fan of Scouting.  I was a Scout myself and have my son in Scouts.  I think that this whole silliness about pocket  knives in the U.K. is just a bit out there and think that both the U.S. and the U.K. need to bring back the Master at Arms Badge, but the whole idea that Scouting is about teaching boys how to camp just isn't right.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Archangel M said:


> We are bemoaning the Scouts being deprived of training and experience with what is probably one of THE fundamental human tools for surviving in the outdoors. It's the young men in your country that we are voicing our concern over...if you folks dont see a problem with it thats your affair. Just our opinion.


First, I don't agree with this at all.  I think that they're wanting to move to Nerf World and are going to be rudely surprised.

Second, please understand where they are coming from.  The last several years there have been several high profile knife attacks and the nation at large is in a tizzy over knives in the hands of young men.  This is just a knee-jerk reaction.  Unfortunately it's the sort of thing that becomes canonized. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## celtic_crippler

Wow...

A pocket knive is the most basic tool depended upon by any scout. That is of course your version of "scouting" is sitting around a table doing Origami...

...wait...that might require cutting paper and scissors are sharp so I guess that's out too. 

Perhaps they could knit sweaters? ...nope...wait...those knitting needles are too damn sharp...GEEZ! WTF are those poor lads gonna do?!?!?


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## shesulsa

grydth said:


> On the one hand, it is their own country and their own scouting program, to do with as they see fit.
> 
> But the USA is _our_ country, and we need to guard against those far lefties, enamored of all things European, who would seek impose these things upon us.
> 
> Okay for them; just plain silly in the USA.



Ah, but BSUSA was inspired and actually spread from the scouting program in England created by Lord Baden-Powell. As scouts do abroad, likely scouts will also do here, it's just a matter of time.



Bob Hubbard said:


> Scouting without knives?  What next, they take out the archery and rifle parts too?  Also fire starting?
> 
> Sheesh.



Ironically, many troops have followed this very model.  Only older scouts start fires and adults use knives in many (though certainly not all) troops.  Wanna talk about Girl Scouts? Fuggeddabowdit.



Omar B said:


> All that's left is a bunch of dudes in the woods dressed silly.



Um, not quite, but I see your point.



bekkilyn said:


> Good grief! I was using a pocketknife since I was practically a baby. I remember my dad giving me one and teaching me how to use it well before I joined the Brownie scouts. And of course I still had one as a Girl Scout when I grew out of the Brownies.
> 
> I can't believe that little British kids would be using these pocketknives against each other as weapons. Come on!



I think your experience belies your age, ma'am.  As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.



Blindside said:


> Well, lets remember that its in the US that some moron interpreted the "no weapons policy" at schools to include the armaments of action figures.
> 
> As a scout that probably managed to own (and lose) enough knives over the course of my scouting career to equip at least a patrol and possibly a smallish troop, I'm pretty unimpressed with whatever logic went into this decision.  I'm pretty sure Lord Baden-Powell would be turning over in his grave.  The totin' chip gave training on both the use of knives and tools, but also on how and when to use them.



Logic? You want logic to have something to do with this? Heh! No, dear, we're talking about government restriction.



Tez3 said:


> It's only ADVICE, not a law. Scouts here..they dropped the Boy bit years ago, will still take them to camp scout leaders have said. they always were pretty regulated. Scouts here don't do archery or anything to do with guns....guns the army, navy and RAF cadets do.
> 
> it's not the law guys, it's actually what has been done for ages. Okay have you finished ripping us to pieces now?



Tez, I don't think we're ripping your country to shreds. I think we're allowed to disparage decisions along these lines whether they occur in the UK, the US, PR, Canada, Spain, Ukraine, Australia or the moon.  The discussions regarding the danger to citizens afforded by limiting their ability to defend themselves would be and often is a vital discussion on these boards. I'm sure if these laws existed in any other country, we would be disparaging the fact that said country passed these kinds of laws.  After all, self-defense rights are just *going* to be discussed on a discussion board and as the world gets smaller and people travel more, this kind of international discourse in pursuit of knowledge is ... expected. :asian:

I will say, from what I've seen of Boy Scouting, the things that bother me are the militarism which is fostered. I understand the value of unity and know that uniformity can foster this ... I just worry sometimes that in some cases we are pouring combat fertilizer upon our young men.

I also am privy to the fact that knife violence has become more high-profile than ever - likely because guns have been removed as well.

That said, I think this move is a big mistake.


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## Tez3

Ok whats really annoying me is being ripped apart for something that hasn't happened and won't, it's fine criticising us but get it right!
From the horses mouth and perhaps you won't believe everything you read in the newspapers.

http://scouts.org.uk/news/225/scouting-refutes-knife-ban-claims

*"
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Several incorrect stories have appeared in the media this week reporting a knife ban in Scouting.* 
In fact, Scouting's rules on the subject have not significantly changed since the late 1960s.
Knives may still be used by young people and adults during supervised camps and other outdoor activities. 

Scouting encourages young people to learn to respect knives, and use them sensibly to learn outdoor skills such as fire lighting, shelter building and backwoods cooking. 
The Movement provides a safe supervised environment in which young people can learn how and how not to use them - including how to avoid injuring themselves and others.  

The Scout Association does not condone young people carrying knifes on their person as a matter of course, unless there is a specific need for one. 
Scouting recommends training in the handling of knives not only for young people, but also for their adult leaders. Advice on the use of knives in Scouting is updated periodically and most recently an article appeared in Scouting magazine, the publication that goes out every two months to Scouting's 100,000 adult members. "

Oh and yes British Scouting is mixed sex.


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## CoryKS

I swear you guys post this stuff just to watch Irene have a stroke.

When my kid was in kindergarten, his teacher called to inform us that he had bitten a cookie into the shape of a gun and was shooting it at other students.  We were like, "and...?"  Took us five minutes to understand what the point of the call was, because she took as given that we understood that this was a Bad Thing.  Nobody has a monopoly on Nervous Nellies.


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## Tez3

CoryKS said:


> I swear you guys post this stuff just to watch Irene have a stroke.


 
Yep!
I'm very angry at the moment must admit not at this but at a mum and dad, I finished kids class earlier at half seven when at this time of year it gets dark, I had a girl of 11, just a slip of a thing, hanging behind to talk to me, she'd come on her bike and she was scared to ride home in the dark on her own. She lives the other side of the garrison to where the club is, it's a good half hour bike ride, there are some cycle paths but we have a lot of rough land with woods. She had no coat to cover her Gi, no reflective strips or bands, no lights on her bike then she said she cycled through a park as a shortcut, this park has youths hanging around it and we've had two rapes there in the past couple of years. I was spitting bricks, I had to leave the adults class to a junior instructor and cram her bike in the car ( a small Honda civic) to get her home, we drew up and her parents didn't even look to see her getting out of a strange car. I didn't go to the door with her, I would have punched the mother or father!
Aaaargh!

Actually Scouts are pansies because they cook on gas fires, the Guides (girls only and determined to stay that way) cook over open fires and still make camp 'gadgets', go girls!!

Okay, please check next time you think we've done something stupid yeah?


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## Bob Hubbard

For the record, I think too many people are too sensitive when it comes to things like this.  I didn't read this as an anti-Brit bit, but anti-stupid bit. Maybe it makes perfectly good sense to some, but to me, it just read as stupid.
Same as you can't comment on some pedo priest without it being an anti-catholic thing, or on what Obama did without it being somehow racist, or complimenting an Arab without being called a terrorist lover.  Rhino's have thicker skin. We need more rhinos, and less tomatoes.  Why tomato?  How thin is their skin eh?  Oh wait, there I go making fun of those Canadian's again. Crikey!  Oh ****! Now the Aussies are going to come beat me with a wallabies.

Can't we all just get together, put on non-toxic gloves, hold hands, and sing kumbiya around a safe biodegradable picture of a fire?


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## Tez3

Bob Hubbard said:


> For the record, I think too many people are too sensitive when it comes to things like this. I didn't read this as an anti-Brit bit, but anti-stupid bit. Maybe it makes perfectly good sense to some, but to me, it just read as stupid.
> Same as you can't comment on some pedo priest without it being an anti-catholic thing, or on what Obama did without it being somehow racist, or complimenting an Arab without being called a terrorist lover. Rhino's have thicker skin. We need more rhinos, and less tomatoes. Why tomato? How thin is their skin eh? Oh wait, there I go making fun of those Canadian's again. Crikey! Oh ****! Now the Aussies are going to come beat me with a wallabies.
> 
> Can't we all just get together, put on non-toxic gloves, hold hands, and sing kumbiya around a safe biodegradable picture of a fire?


 
Well, it would have been an anti stupid thing...*if it had happened*!


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## Tez3

Archangel M said:


> Ripping US?? to pieces? Sorry but that seem a little sensitive considering...
> 
> We are bemoaning the Scouts being deprived of training and experience with what is probably one of THE fundamental human tools for surviving in the outdoors. It's the young men in your country that we are voicing our concern over...if you folks dont see a problem with it thats your affair. Just our opinion.


 
Well, it is ripping us to pieces because the story simply isn't true. The newspaper is wrong! I don't see a problem because there isn't one unless you count the press getting their facts wrong...again.

As I said before Scouting in this country is mixed sex so that's the welfare of the young men AND women.


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## celtic_crippler

Everybody knows you can't believe what you read in the funny papers. 

I too thought it was just plain ridiculous and was commenting on that aspect, not bashing any Brits. 

I like the Brits! Their flag is way cooler than ours and they gave me Dr. Who and Iron Maiden. What's not to like!?! :bangahead:


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## Tez3

celtic_crippler said:


> Everybody knows you can't believe what you read in the funny papers.
> 
> I too thought it was just plain ridiculous and was commenting on that aspect, not bashing any Brits.
> 
> I like the Brits! Their flag is way cooler than ours and they gave me Dr. Who and Iron Maiden. *What's not to like!?!* :bangahead:


 
The bloody weather!

It does seem to me sometimes that people post stuff up and it comes out like 'look what the stupid Brits have done now' which is really annoying for a couple of reasons, firstly people who don't understand how a country works start criticising it based on what they know about their own country ie when people were saying arresting someone was over the top etc and I had to explain that arrest here isn't the same as arrest in America. Secondly, assuming that the people agree with something just because a government has done it, you don't always agree with your government why assume we do with ours? We get accused and it has been done, of being sheep led by the nose, it doesn't occur to anyone that often people are fighting things and often things are overturned by public pressure. we have a fair few things wrong, who hasn't but don't assume it's stupid until the story is checked and it's current....a thread was posted on here about a 'new' stop and search law in England and how awful it was but I had to point out the law was nearly 20 years old and had been working fine.

In this story everyone just assumed oh it's the UK and it's banning knives must be true without bothering to find out whether it was or not and we were lectured! That really rankles!! All that B-P must be turning in his grave...thanks. We get sarcasm and then get talked down to so yep, I'm not having a stroke but I am annoyed. it's not as though we even have BOY Scouts!


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## CoryKS

shesulsa said:


> I will say, from what I've seen of Boy Scouting, the things that bother me are the militarism which is fostered. I understand the value of unity and know that uniformity can foster this ... I just worry sometimes that in some cases we are pouring combat fertilizer upon our young men.


 
Having been a den leader for my son's Cub Scout den, I've taken their leadership training and I can tell you that they expressly forbid _any_ sort of militarism. No drills, no oaths beyond the PoA (which they are not required to say), nothing that even looks military. The only thing that might be considered similar would be the khaki shirts, but even park rangers wear those.

On a lighter note, those Boy Scout-aged kids are right at the age where the hormones are starting to fire up but hygeine has not yet become a pressing concern. Many of them go home from their meetings and ball up the shirt in the closet until the next occasion. Those uniforms may look the same, but they come in a breathtaking variety of funk. :rofl:


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## Xinglu

shesulsa said:


> As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.


  Um.... I _am_ a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time:  I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife.  We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.

Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife... 

-OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying?  Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns


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## Carol

Xinglu said:


> Um.... I _am_ a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time:  I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife.  We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.
> 
> Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife...
> 
> -OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying?  Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns



I think its a difference between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts


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## girlbug2

Tez3 said:


> It does seem to me sometimes that people post stuff up and it comes out like 'look what the stupid Brits have done now' which is really annoying for a couple of reasons, firstly people who don't understand how a country works start criticising it based on what they know about their own country .....it's not as though we even have BOY Scouts!


 

Well I can't know what's in anybody else's mind here but when I read something like this about the UK and express disbelief/outrage it's not because I'm thinking the Brits are stupid.  Quite the opposite. I view Brits as Cousins in a sense and I get annoyed at their government _for_ their sake, just like I'd be annoyed if I found out that the parents of my cousins laid down some nonsensiscal rules for them. 

(Yes I know it's not an actual law, I'm just sayin').

Also in the US we have both girl scouts and boy scouts, they're just segregated last I knew of.


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## Blindside

girlbug2 said:


> Also in the US we have both girl scouts and boy scouts, they're just segregated last I knew of.


 
They are segregated because they are run by seperate organizations.

There is an Explorer Scouts programs that is a subsidary of BSA that is coed and open to ages 14-20 IIRC.  Explorers were usually associated with a profession (LE, fire, search and rescue, etc) but there were also High Adventure groups.


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## Bob Hubbard

Tez3 said:


> Well, it would have been an anti stupid thing...*if it had happened*!





Tez3 said:


> Well, it is ripping us to pieces because the story simply isn't true. The newspaper is wrong! I don't see a problem because there isn't one unless you count the press getting their facts wrong...again.



So that paper is wrong. Ok. Considering that I -thought- that particular news source to be reliable, it seems we need to know what is a good source then.

Should we trust the Sun?  No, because outside of Page 3, who reads it?
What about the BBC?
The Times?
That guy in the 24' scarf buying jellybabies at Mrs. Miggins Pie Shop?

Should we just make it board policy that anything having to do with England is off-limits to discussion?

Because it seems that any time any criticism of anything British comes up, no matter how slight, it seems I start to get a head ache, and we start to get reports of bashing, and other crap. 

In this case Tez, you've got your knickers in a knot over comments on an article in an as far as we know reputable source, claiming we're bashing the mighty British Empire, when in fact we're simply bashing what to us is a pretty stupid idea and totally against what we see as Scouting, and in fact against it's shared origins which we got from your country. The fact you have sources that dispute the original story is great. I don't see the original source having printed a retraction yet though.  So now, as often happens, we have 2 sources, both valid, both saying something different.

I don't see any Brit bashing here, if I did, I'd call it bluntly. See, to me, Brit-Bashing would be making a comment like this one : "maybe waiting until one reaches 2nd Lt. before explaining firearms is a poor way to train an army, but a good way to lose an empire and end up stuck on 1 single island off the butt end of France" or something similarly rude.  But "Thats pretty dumb" is to me a far cry.

Your scouting program has evolved in a different direction than ours.  That's fine. You don't allow kids in who don't swear allegiance to your Queen. That's ok. We ban gay kids and non-Christians from ours. Our kids get merit badges in archery (a fine English tradition), while yours have dropped that tradition in favor of something else. 

Then again, there's the question of which scouting group. There are many.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scouting_in_South_East_England
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baden-Powell_Scouts'_Association
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Federation_of_Independent_Scouts

So, in the end, maybe both sources are right and one group of scouts are going the "super safe and protective" way, and others are still learning to use knives, shoot bows and build fires?


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## shesulsa

Xinglu said:


> Um.... I _am_ a scout leader who always carries a knife on him. I attend many scouting events yearly to include the national jamboree from time to time:  I never once have been frowned upon by any scouters, leadership, or parents for carrying a knife.  We are huge on knife safety and don't hesitate to take "tote n' chips" away if we see unsafe actions.
> 
> Maybe it is just your neck of the woods that is anti-knife...
> 
> -OR- maybe it is the knife you are carrying?  Bowie knives or butterfly knives might get a few frowns





Carol Kaur said:


> I think its a difference between the Boy Scouts and the Girl Scouts



The lady, she is rrrright.  The pressure is heavy on GSUSA to ban knives, guns, archery, etcetera.  I am one of few leaders I know who carries at least one knife.  "What is the purpose," is the question I often get, though at every single campout I've been to, there has been some kind of need for a knife outside of cooking.


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## shesulsa

Tez, sorry, but I still don't see this as an anti-Brit thing. I see this as an anti-stupid thing, caveat being the article may or may not be right. We've had these discussions before on conflicting articles and it has nothing to do with nationality.

If I offended you in some way, please accept my apology and please know I have nothing against the UK. Ok?


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## Archangel M

It's not like anybody was saying that Britain is an interventionist, arrogant country, who thinks that it's superior to everybody else...relax.  :uhyeah:

I say the same sort of stuff about our Canadian neighbors and their gun restrictions. I think it's a shame that such good people, with such beautiful wild country and a national history of "ruggedness" to match our Cowboys have such restrictive gun laws. 

If we were were talking about the Ruskies or the Iranians I'd probably say "good...avoid teaching them that stuff all you want."  I just hope that the UK doesn't go as wishy washy as mainland Europe has seem to gone (IMO). I've always admired the Brits for their "grit" and it seems like they are experiencing the same "PC diluting" as I think my own country is falling victim to.


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## Xinglu

shesulsa said:


> The lady, she is rrrright.  The pressure is heavy on GSUSA to ban knives, guns, archery, etcetera.  I am one of few leaders I know who carries at least one knife.  "What is the purpose," is the question I often get, though at every single campout I've been to, there has been some kind of need for a knife outside of cooking.



Somehow I missed that it was Girl Scouts. :uhyeah:  I was really confused there for a minute! lol


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## bekkilyn

shesulsa said:


> I think your experience belies your age, ma'am.  As a leader who carried a knife I was frowned upon by many.



True, it was a good number of years ago, but still....

I'd go to girl scout camp in the summers for two weeks. No parents. Just camp counselors and such. In fact, I seem to recall getting a list of items that we were required to bring and a penknife was *always* on the list!

I'm wondering if girl scout camp is still allowed these days. After all, we started fires nearly every night (someone could get burned!) and went canoeing and swimming on/in the lake (someone could drown!), camped out each night in a tent-like contraption with mosquito netting (oh no, someone could drop dead due to no A/C or electricity in the summer!), AND had to use a *latrine* OMG! (Someone could fall in!) Not to mention having to use flashlights in the dark. (Have they banned the darkness yet, I wonder?)

Ugh, and I was complaining back then that the girl scouts were too prissy. I guess the kids nowadays are missing out on a lot of good stuff because our society has fallen so deeply into wussiness.

I can't imagine anyone being frowned upon for carrying a pocketknife for goodness sake. It's just insane crazy!


----------



## Xinglu

Blindside said:


> They are segregated because they are run by seperate organizations.
> 
> There is an Explorer Scouts programs that is a subsidary of BSA that is coed and open to ages 14-20 IIRC.  Explorers were usually associated with a profession (LE, fire, search and rescue, etc) but there were also High Adventure groups.



the BSA has the Venture Scouting which is Co-ed and from 14 - 21, they also have Varsity Scouting which is 14-17 (up to 18th b-day) and is not co-ed.  Those would be your high adventure groups.


----------



## Blindside

Xinglu said:


> the BSA has the Venture Scouting which is Co-ed and from 14 - 21, they also have Varsity Scouting which is 14-17 (up to 18th b-day) and is not co-ed. Those would be your high adventure groups.


 
Apparently they split the Varsity/Venture Scouting off from the Explorers in '98, it used to be one big program.  My last year in Explorers was '90.


----------



## Xinglu

Blindside said:


> Apparently they split the Varsity/Venture Scouting off from the Explorers in '98, it used to be one big program.  My last year in Explorers was '90.



Varsity Scouting has been around since the 70's and part of the BSA since 1984 and was never a subset or part of the Explorers program.


----------



## Tez3

The subject of knives and guns seems to get peoples teeth on edge and arguments start, it's past experience that makes me very defensive on here when posters go on about  these subjects in the UK.
I don't know either why people think Europe is soft on weapons either, they certainly aren't. They may have a different attitude towards guns to Americans but then everyone has frankly. I think your country is the only one where guns/arms are a political issue, not saying thats good or bad but it's different from us. Thats what I mean by you looking at this from an American perspective not ours.
The British Empire is long gone and was never a good idea in the first place so you bash that away as much as you like, I was getting annoyed specifically because and I'm taking a deep breath here.......I don't think people when they post sometimes realise exactly how hurtful some of their comments are. "_And the Brits call the French sissy's_?" for example? thanks for that.  Look at some of the posts and imagine that it's directed at you and your country specifically. A lot of the posts come over as condescending. 
There really is only one Scouting Association here in this country that's the one strarted by B-P, the others are tiny splinter groups started by people disaffected with the main group. British citizens who join Scouting and Guiding are expected to swear allegiance to the Queen, non British citizens make the promise pertaining to their country.
No, British items shouldn't be out of the discussing but how about making it less confrontional to start with, instead of "Boy Scouts have knives banned and I think they're stupid" how about, I read this "so what do the Brits think about it" and take it as a discussion from there? 

We have history against us here too, years of Americans telling us that what they do is better, bigger and we should do it your way, you may think I have my knickers in a twist but you really, really don't understand that being criticised by Americans over even the slightest thing sets us off. I know it's not arrogance on your part though it often comes across as that, I know you do really mean well but talking to people here it's the one thing that will unite Europeans, Asians,Anzacs etc, thats being told by Americans that the way they do things is best. I know you think it is and I know you'd like us all to have good things but it really gets us going when you do that. Last year we had some American tourists in Richmond our local town, the market place in the middle is cobblestoned, the Americans came in to see the castle and they told the lady who works there that really and this was for our own good we should really take them up and modernise it with a proper road surface. We all laughed at that one, _fondly_ I might add, but giving advice all round the world gets you in trouble where it's not taken as friendly.
I know you say you should criticise all bad laws wherever they are but why? Bad laws in other's countries is not something Brits or Europeans lose any sleep over why do Americans feel they have to do this? I'm sure you have bad laws but no Brit or European here has ever felt any need to post up about them, it's not just that it seems bad manners to post _it's also nothing to do with us. _
If someone tells us the American scouts are banning knives we'd look at you politely and shrug, it's nothing to do with us what you do. Do you see the difference in our attitude to yours? this is why it feels as if you are attacking us, we don't think what goes on here is anything to do with you. It's like asking your neighbour how much he gets paid and how often he and his wife make love, you just don't go there. Saying you think of us as cousins and are just concerned makes it worse in our eyes, it's the Americans doing the big puppy thing again! You're going to get British reserve coming back at you because you've hurt their feelings but they aren't going to say. Other countries aren't so up tight, this is why there is so much hostility towards America that really needn't be there. 

I think it's a bigger probem really than just how we perceive each other on here, it affects how Americans are seen in the wider world. I know Americans get hurt and bewildered when they are attacked by other countries because all they are trying to do is help, it's a sort of missionary complex lol! only the natives don't want to be converted. 

I think while we have a lot of things in common our attitudes to each other and what is each countries business is vastly different. Thats why I (and my colleagues at work with whom I discussed this) see what has been posted as an attack and you see it as an open issue free to all to criticise. It's quite a wide gap of perception to be closed.


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## Ceicei

opcorn::lurk:opcorn:


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## Tez3

Ceicei said:


> opcorn::lurk:opcorn:


 
Nice one! xx


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## Xinglu

Just for the record I don't think that the way we Americans do things are any better.  Half the time we have our heads up our collective bums.  Having lived overseas and in europe for 6 years, I learned some things.  We Americans tend to be incredibly myopic and inconsiderate when it comes to other cultures then flip out if someone treats us the same way.

With that said it really grinds my gears when brits call us arrogant.  It is like the pot calling the kettle black. The British are just as opinionated as Americans, just as dogmatic, and twice as condescending!

I greatly enjoy the UK, I love the people, but don't pretend like Brits are victims of American arrogance.  Both sides are arrogant.  Both are pompous.  Both think their nation is more important than everyone else's, and both produce great people!  So why the heck is there always a UK vs USA sentiment going?  Seems pointless, myopic, and jingoistic to me.

On to topic it was the Brits that brought us the Scouts!  Thank you for that and thank you for the Beetles.  But please keep the blood pudding and pass the bangers and mash my way please! :boing2:


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## Bob Hubbard

Actually I just want to start a threat making fun of British desert names, but I'm afraid I'd get my Dr. Who fan club membership revoked so I won't.  But Spotted Dick just makes me giggle.  :wavey:


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## Archangel M

Wow Tez that was a lot of typing for "I can criticize you but you cant criticize me".


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## lklawson

Xinglu said:


> Both sides are arrogant.  Both are pompous.  Both think their nation is more important than everyone else's


Welcome to the Human Race.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Archangel M

PS-And there are WORLDS of difference between me "criticizing" your countries knife laws and us attempting to DO SOMETHING about it. Do as you wish..who here is saying anything about trying to influence your laws?

...and stretching a criticizing opinion into "dislike" of your country is unfair as well. For all the friction we have no more loyal ally (well..Canada has been pretty cool too  ).


----------



## Xinglu

Bob Hubbard said:


> Actually I just want to start a threat making fun of British desert names, but I'm afraid I'd get my Dr. Who fan club membership revoked so I won't.  But Spotted Dick just makes me giggle.  :wavey:



Here Here!  



lklawson said:


> Welcome to the Human Race.


Roger that, 'tis the point!


----------



## Tez3

Archangel M said:


> Wow Tez that was a lot of typing for "I can criticize you but you cant criticize me".


 
Why do you have to twist what I say? *I was explaining why we thought* *we were being criticised when we weren't* and how we see things differently, I really do wish you'd actually read what I write instead of thinking you know what I'm talking about.


----------



## Tez3

Desert names? We don't have any deserts until you mean Slough.

I didn't say Americans were arrogant I said sometimes what they say comes over as that when you actually are meaning to be helpful.
The British don't tend to be arrogant as they just know they are right and the natives are wrong, they don't try to tell people what to do they just take over the country, colonise it and make everyone do it their way, though that stopped a few years ago. 
for Archangels benefit I will summerise my points.....
We look at things differently there's no doubt, we tend to be far more private in our own lives as well as our nations' lives so we don't understand why there's so much interest in our laws, government etc so we take discussion of that especially when people don't like what we do as criticism of us and we react badly. 
We don't understand why you are bothered by our laws, we think it's none of your business. We don't discuss your laws or any other countries either etc, to be honest we aren't interested, it's not our country. it doesn't make sense that you say you are just anti stupid etc when to us it's often not stupid or to us things are acceptable. 
the bottoma line is that we don't understand people taking an interest in 'our stuff' and there's little you can say to make us understand that you do. As I said it's a cultural difference. All the Americans I've ever met are far more open on first acquaintance than any Brit, they are happy discussing with you the most personal things a Brit would take twenty years of knowing someone before even thinking they might mention it, we are a much more closed society, far more private and less open to talking about things. Again this leads us to be defensive when people question our laws, way of life etc. I'm not saying it's good or bad just trying to explain why we get upset at posts like this one and others. 
I post back in public by the way, I've never complained to mods etc about any post dealing with the UK, just so's you know I don't whinge behind people's backs. I attack face on lol. 

Shana Tova.


----------



## Gordon Nore

Archangel M said:


> *Scouts to no longer bring penknives on camping trips*



...and yet, strangely, men and boys in short pants are still sent out into the wilderness with nary a thought.


----------



## shesulsa

If I may respond with the same desire for clarity as you:



Tez3 said:


> why there's so much interest in our laws, government etc so we take discussion of that especially when people don't like what we do as criticism of us and we react badly. We don't understand why you are bothered by our laws, we think it's none of your business. We don't discuss your laws or any other countries either etc, to be honest we aren't interested, it's not our country. it doesn't make sense that you say you are just anti stupid etc when to us it's often not stupid or to us things are acceptable.



Those of us interested in travel, the global human condition and world-wide ability to protect oneself are interested in laws in other countries along these lines.  I rather think it could be a 'brotherhood' kind of thing ... if only it were *allowed* to be.  Too bad you think it's none of our business ... I'm sure, should England require the aid of the US in wartime that you'd be glad to make many things our business.



> the bottoma line is that we don't understand people taking an interest in 'our stuff' and there's little you can say to make us understand that you do. As I said it's a cultural difference.


With all due respect to culture, it does not preclude polite conversation and personal opinion and concern for general welfare from being discussed.



> All the Americans I've ever met are far more open on first acquaintance than any Brit, they are happy discussing with you the most personal things a Brit would take twenty years of knowing someone before even thinking they might mention it, we are a much more closed society, far more private and less open to talking about things. Again this leads us to be defensive when people question our laws, way of life etc. I'm not saying it's good or bad just trying to explain why we get upset at posts like this one and others.


I understand that an intimate part of your culture is to play things quite close to the vest.  However, one simply must expect for public policy to be discussed publicly. :idunno:



> I post back in public by the way, I've never complained to mods etc about any post dealing with the UK, just so's you know I don't whinge behind people's backs. I attack face on lol.
> 
> Shana Tova.


Ok.


----------



## Tez3

shesulsa said:


> If I may respond with the same desire for clarity as you:
> 
> 
> 
> Those of us interested in travel, the global human condition and world-wide ability to protect oneself are interested in laws in other countries along these lines. I rather think it could be a 'brotherhood' kind of thing ... if only it were *allowed* to be. Too bad you think it's none of our business ... I'm sure, should England require the aid of the US in wartime that you'd be glad to make many things our business.
> 
> With all due respect to culture, it does not preclude polite conversation and personal opinion and concern for general welfare from being discussed.
> 
> I understand that an intimate part of your culture is to play things quite close to the vest. However, one simply must expect for public policy to be discussed publicly. :idunno:
> 
> Ok.


 
I never said it was right or even healthy I was just explaining that's how it's seen here.

You must admit too that the tone of some...not all..posts here were mocking.


----------



## BLACK LION

Archangel M said:


> *Scouts to no longer bring penknives on camping trips*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Good Lord.


 
"Unless there is likely to be a need for one"...   

Will billy being a scout and all I dont think there are any uses for a knife so just leave it at home...   

Its assinine to assume anything...


----------



## Tez3

BLACK LION said:


> "Unless there is likely to be a need for one"...
> 
> Will billy being a scout and all I dont think there are any uses for a knife so just leave it at home...
> 
> Its assinine to assume anything...


 
The Scout Association did say you know that the newspaper reports were wrong and they haven't said anything about banning knives etc.


----------



## Xinglu

Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans.  We tend not to understand why other people would be quick to give them up to government, yet are slowly doing the same thing themselves.

Americans see Brits as cousins and see things like, "if it happens over there, how long until it happens here?" Also, you must understand that Americans distrust of Government comes from our ancestors experience with the english Government.


----------



## Tez3

Xinglu said:


> Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans. We tend not to understand why other people would be quick to give them up to government, yet are slowly doing the same thing themselves.
> 
> Americans see Brits as cousins and see things like, "if it happens over there, how long until it happens here?" Also, you must understand that Americans distrust of Government comes from our ancestors experience with the english Government.


 
If you think the Americans have trust issues with the English government you should look at the Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Irish, East Anglians, Northumbrians, Cumbrians...well basically anyone who lives outside London. A good description would actually be the "London Government". Many people even now see London as the seat of all our political problems, I know they do up here in the north of England, there is still a big north/south divide here despite what people may say to the contrary.

I don't think we are giving up our rights to government, you must remember we are subjects not citizens as you are. I think, although it may not look like it or even feel like it we have actually more rights at this point in time that we've ever had, the EU is to thank for much of that I believe though it's open to argument. If you look at the rights we had at the same time as you were making your bid for independance you'll find we had fewer than you then. After you gained your independance from London we still had few rights while you were drawing up your constitution we had no say at all in anything and most of the UK was suffering badly. Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath. Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.

This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either, crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged. I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!



Our whole system of government with us being a monarchy is different from your way, if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country. The way things are here are designed to work here not in a bigger country who's whole political system and way of governing is different so it would be better for people who look at us and want to copy the way we do things to remember that.


----------



## Xinglu

Tez3 said:


> If you think the Americans have trust issues with the English government you should look at the Scottish, Welsh, Cornish, Irish, East Anglians, Northumbrians, Cumbrians...well basically anyone who lives outside London. A good description would actually be the "London Government". Many people even now see London as the seat of all our political problems, I know they do up here in the north of England, there is still a big north/south divide here despite what people may say to the contrary.
> 
> I don't think we are giving up our rights to government, you must remember we are subjects not citizens as you are. I think, although it may not look like it or even feel like it we have actually more rights at this point in time that we've ever had, the EU is to thank for much of that I believe though it's open to argument. If you look at the rights we had at the same time as you were making your bid for independance you'll find we had fewer than you then. After you gained your independance from London we still had few rights while you were drawing up your constitution we had no say at all in anything and most of the UK was suffering badly. Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath. Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.
> 
> This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either, crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged. I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!
> 
> 
> 
> Our whole system of government with us being a monarchy is different from your way, if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country. The way things are here are designed to work here not in a bigger country who's whole political system and way of governing is different so it would be better for people who look at us and want to copy the way we do things to remember that.



America was very close to becoming a monarchy, they tried to crown George Washington after all.  Thankfully, he declined and pushed America as a Republic. Unfortunately we are coming closer to becoming an oligarchy every year.

As I said, these unalienable rights that Americans fixate on, are believed to be endowed to every human being by their "creator," regardless of weather they are subject or citizens.

I've never heard the term London Government - but I think it might capture well the picture you have painted for me


----------



## lklawson

Xinglu said:


> Tez - Americans are concerned about others because they believe in unalienable rights for all people, not just Americans.


Which is why we see so much in the news about the deprivations, mass murders, and interment camps in the Sudan...  Oh, wait...

While it is true that we, as a culture, want to extend our desire for Liberty (at least what we think of as Liberty) to the rest of the world, we are, in fact, far more sensitive to what happens in some places than in others.  GB is one of those places.  We have a common history and a co-mingled origin.  We still tell tales of King Arther and watch movies of Robin Hood.  Other places, like the Sudan I mentioned above, we are more interested in as an academic effort.  But GB... Well, things that happen there we are concerned (or hopeful, depending) might happen *HERE*.  And it's *BECAUSE* of our shared culture.  No one worried about a gun ban happening in the U.S. when similar bans happened in African nations.  But when they happened in Australia and GB, we here in the U.S. (rightly so) went poo-flinging nuts.  It's because, again, of our shared culture.

The rest of your statements, I agree with.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> Look up the '45 rebellion in Scotland and it's appalling aftermath.


Scotland was still deeply intertwined with the Economics of England in general.  Individuals controlling assets important to Scotland spanned both nations in a way not entirely dissimilar to modern multi-nationals.  Political independence mixed with economic dependence often leads to unhappy results.



> Ireland was in the grip of a terrible famine, took over a century for them to recover only to have another.


Ireland has had any number of famines.  They seem cursed.  The most famous, the "Great Potato Famine," wasn't so much a famine at all as a complete collapse of the *ONLY *crop that was available to the farmers.  Absentee Landlords and other well connected and wealthy in the nation had an extremely strong export of food crops going on the whole time.  During the Potato Famine, Ireland actually produced enough food to feed the indigents, and then some.  But it all went "offshore," usually to England.  When their food crops failed (Potatoes), the local farmers simply couldn't sustain themselves and meet their financial obligations to the Landlords.

It was a very sad, yet fascinating period of Irish history and one of the major drivers for numerous changes, not only in Ireland but in the U.S. as well.  The "Irish Diaspora" caused by this famine and displacement moved Irish to many places in both South and North America.



> This may go with the thread about society going to the dogs but I don't think the UK despite all the problems has ever actually been so peaceful and well off. That may sound odd but this country has a very violent past, not in the distant past either,


Terry Brown's "English Martial Arts" documents some very interesting history.  IMS, one traveler (French I think) commented how every farmer has a Quaterstaff or other weapon propped in the corner of his field as he works, that crime was low in comparison with mainland Europe, and no one in his right mind would try to invade England because armed peasants would be popping out of the woodwork.




> crime may appear bad now but has actually been steadily going down. Compared to the start of the 20th century this country is now a haven of peace and quiet, before that the Victorian ere was horrendous unless you were wealthy and priviliged.


I've seen studies supporting both sides of the argument.  Let's just say that this conclusion is in contention.



> I supposed as the current generation though we feel things must have been better in the past and we are in all manner of trouble now. I for one wouldn't chose to go back in time to any time at all, much better off here and now!


The Good Old Days are always good and Today always sucks.  Particularly in regard to "The Youth of Today."

I'm always reminded of one commentator who went on a tirade about how "the youth of today" were rude, disrespectful, disobedient gluttons.

Wait for it....

...

...

...

...Plato.




> if people are looking to emulate the way things are done here it won't work in your country.


*YOU *get that.  But a lot of our, ahem, "Leaders" don't.  Which is part of our concern.  We don't want you guys to do things which large segments of our society here will want to try to emulate.  Because they're stupid.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

The armed peasants thing would have been a very long time ago and they would have been armed on the behest of their lords so they could fight for their lords. Quarterstaffs are medieval weapon, long outdated though there's a connection to this thread as the early Boy Scouts carried them until about the time of the Great Depression.

The idea of England as a peaceful place is a myth with wars, uprisings, civil wars, outlaws and crime being rife right through to at least the start of the 20th century. 

I'm not sure that the arguments that crime was or wasn't rife _is_ in contention tbh, I grew up in the fifties and sixties in Scotland and trust me crime there was certainly rife! My father was born in the 1920s and he recounts that violence and crime was probably even worse then. glasgow was certainly a fearsome place as was the East End of London. 

It's often pointed out that until the end of the First World War anyone could own a gun in the UK, which by law was right but by economics was wrong. Just because people could own guns didn't mean to say they could afford to. The gun laws that came in after the first world war had nothing to do with crime and everything to do with a fear of Bolsheviks and unemployed soldiers with left over guns from the war. The government feared revolution as did many of the people so the gun laws were acceptable. 

Gun and knife laws are still acceptable here, we've had campaigns asking for the banning of them, it's not a one sided move by the government. When this false report appeared that the Scouts wouldn't carry knives there was little or no outrage. It simply hasn't the political interest that it has in America.

The general public here don't appear to want to be armed, many say they don't want the police armed either though armed response units are acceptable. If thats how they see it it's hard to imagine how you are going to persuade them to carry guns 'for their own good'. I think many pro gun people in America can't imagine not being without guns therefore think we are being put down by the government and conversely the anti gun lobby want to use us as a reason for disarming as we don't seem to need them but neither argument holds water. 

The people here aren't easily led by the nose, witness the poll tax riots. If we feel strongly about something the people rise and it gets nasty, the truth is that the people as a whole simply don't feel strongly about being armed with guns or knives. Of course there's individuals who do but there's no public outcry.


----------



## Tez3

Can I point out too that the Scouts tend not to carry penknives anyway, they have proper knives a la Crocodile Dundee! 

Bear Grylls is the Chief Scout for crying out loud, do you think he'd ban knives lol! Personally I would have chosen Ray Mears but Bear is more telegenic.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/global/2009/may/17/bear-grylls-chief-scout

Scouts here wear modern smart uniforms so why people think they still wear clothes from 1900 I've no idea!

http://www.scout-and-guide-shop.co.uk/acatalog/Scout_Uniforms.html

Just one of the badges available for the young people to earn...Master at Arms.
http://www.scoutbase.org.uk/library/hqdocs/badges/scout-activity-maatar.htm


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## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> The armed peasants thing would have been a very long time ago


Obviously.



> and they would have been armed on the behest of their lords so they could fight for their lords.


Not sure that's exactly true.  There seems to have been a "culture" of non-Noble martial arts in England.  It is true that the Nobility and the Monarchy took advantage of that and encouraged it.  The Monarchy commissioned the Maisters of Defense, a sort of "Guild" for martial arts, which apparently catered to a predominately Commoner clientele. Then there's the famous archery proclamation (my google search says it was 1363 but may have been 1511).



> Quarterstaffs are medieval weapon, long outdated though there's a connection to this thread as the early Boy Scouts carried them until about the time of the Great Depression.


And learned to fight with them http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/boy-scouts-master-at-arms-badge/2487450

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Tez3

lklawson said:


> Obviously.
> 
> Not sure that's exactly true. There seems to have been a "culture" of non-Noble martial arts in England. It is true that the Nobility and the Monarchy took advantage of that and encouraged it. The Monarchy commissioned the Maisters of Defense, a sort of "Guild" for martial arts, which apparently catered to a predominately Commoner clientele. Then there's the famous archery proclamation (my google search says it was 1363 but may have been 1511).
> 
> And learned to fight with them http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-book/boy-scouts-master-at-arms-badge/2487450
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 




When you say monarchy you'll have to say who's lol.
As it is it was Henry the Eighth of England that chartered the Maisters first in 1540, giving the Guild the monopoly on teaching "all the weapons of war a gentleman should know". The charter was renewed by Edward VI again of England but not by subsequent kings or queens. The guild was like all guilds a money making business. If you can get your hands on the Sloane manuscript thats in the British Museum, it gives a lot of comtempory details of the guild. Commoners unless very rich wouldn't have been able to afford to pay for lessons with the guild though. Being a Richard the Third fan though I have no time for the Tudors lol! 

Just up the road from me is where the worlds oldest sporting competition is held, it's just had it's 301st AGM, it's the Scorton Archery competition. 
http://www.scortonarrow.com/


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Just up the road from me is where the worlds oldest sporting competition is held, it's just had it's 301st AGM, it's the Scorton Archery competition.
> http://www.scortonarrow.com/


 

Sorry, but I think the Kirkpinar Festival ( Turkish Oil Wrestling) has been held since 1352, making it somewhat older than the Silver Arrow.....at least, that's what the Guiness Book says (though I think their date is 1460, IIRC)


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## Tez3

elder999 said:


> Sorry, but I think the Kirkpinar Festival ( Turkish Oil Wrestling) has been held since 1352, making it somewhat older than the Silver Arrow.....at least, that's what the Guiness Book says (though I think their date is 1460, IIRC)


 
Wrestling greased up isn't a competition it's a pleasure!!!


You'll have to take the date up with t'committee  (it's Yorkshire, thats how they speak tha knows)


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## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> When you say monarchy you'll have to say who's lol.


<snork>  hahaha

Good point.



Tez3 said:


> The guild was like all guilds a money making business. [snip]Commoners unless very rich wouldn't have been able to afford to pay for lessons with the guild though.



That's interesting.  The reprint that I read had stipulations included for people of humble means, particularly ways to Play the Prize on the cheap if you were poor.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Langenschwert

lklawson said:


> While it is true that we, as a culture, want to extend our desire for Liberty (at least what we think of as Liberty) to the rest of the world, we are, in fact, far more sensitive to what happens in some places than in others. GB is one of those places. We have a common history and a co-mingled origin.


 
Another thing is that Canadians and Americans are very concerned with freedom in Europe due to the fact that it was bought in part with the blood of our ancestors. Thousands of N. American troops died in WWII... 45,500 Canadians and 416,800 Americans. In my case, my father was Dutch, and his hometown was liberated by Canadians. He would have certainly starved to death had the Canadians not come. *My father owes his very life to the North American "gun culture"*, and so do I, and so do many Europeans living today. Kids who grew up shooting rabbits and coyotes made good riflemen in the Canadian military, and I'm thankful for that! I wouldn't be here otherwise.

So as a Canadian whose parents were both born in Europe, it galls me that my relatives (whose democracy was created in part due to the sacrifices of Canadians) seem so eager to throw away the liberties that previous generations sacrificed everything to give them.

Remember: 

Rome remained free for four hundred years and Sparta eight hundred, although their citizens were armed all that time; but many other states that have been disarmed have lost their liberties in less than forty years. ~ *Nicolo Machiavelli*

The state must fear the people. I remember that dumbfounded, I had a discussion with a German gentleman who said that one should trust the State, and hence there was no need for a citizen to protect himself from it by force of arms. If anyone should know better, you'd think it would be him!

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Blindside

Langenschwert said:


> Remember:
> 
> Rome remained free for four hundred years and Sparta eight hundred, although their citizens were armed all that time; but many other states that have been disarmed have lost their liberties in less than forty years. ~ *Nicolo Machiavelli*


 
Yikes, citing Sparta as an example of how armed Citizens protect the "freedom" is somewhat.... problematic.  The Spartan citizens might have been "free," the large slave society under them might have had other ideas.  There may be a dual lesson there, one about armed citizens protecting the nation and armed members of society protecting the rights of the individual.


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## arnisador

The Spartan citizens were also effectively drafted at a young age...


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## Tez3

arnisador said:


> The Spartan citizens were also effectively drafted at a young age...


 
among other things!


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## lklawson

Blindside said:


> Yikes, citing Sparta as an example of how armed Citizens protect the "freedom" is somewhat.... problematic.  The Spartan citizens might have been "free," the large slave society under them might have had other ideas.  There may be a dual lesson there, one about armed citizens protecting the nation and armed members of society protecting the rights of the individual.


It was a quote by Machiavelli who lived nearly 500 years ago (half a millennium!).  I think it's fair to say that their knowledge of the details of Spartan culture wasn't quite what ours is today.

Take it for what it's worth, OK.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Tez3 said:


> among other things!


It's worse than that.  If the universe were Just the Spartans would have been wiped off the face of the planet while they were still a twinkle in the eye of Lycurgus.

BTW, with all this talk lately of "reform" one should remember that Lycurgus was a social reformer.

Not all "reform" is good and the overwhelmingly positive connotation to the word is strictly modern.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Blindside

lklawson said:


> It was a quote by Machiavelli who lived nearly 500 years ago (half a millennium!).  I think it's fair to say that their knowledge of the details of Spartan culture wasn't quite what ours is today.
> 
> Take it for what it's worth, OK.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk



Sure, I'm not questioning Machiavelli's knowledge, but rather that of the wisdom of using that quote as illustrative of a current situation, there are many, far better and accurate quotes that could support the same argument.


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## shesulsa

My hasn't this thread taken its twists and turns. LOL


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## arnisador

Tez3 said:


> among other things!



Eh, I thought about pointing that out but decided against it...but yeah, they were drafted into military "and other" activities by the older men.


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## chrispillertkd

lklawson said:


> Not all "reform" is good and the overwhelmingly positive connotation to the word is strictly modern.


 
As G.K. Chesterton said, ""The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right."

Pax,

Chris


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