# SKK Form History



## fnorfurfoot (Mar 29, 2008)

I'm sure that Joe Rebelo will have something to add to this, but I was wondering if anyone knew any history behind where the SKK forms came from.  I know that 2 Pinan is a Cerio creation.  Or at least, the 2 Pinan that we perform.  And 6 Kata came from Pesare.  Where did the rest originate?  

Since most all Japanese katas are supposed to begin and end in the same spot, I was also wondering if anyone knew if the katas are actually a longer form cut up into smaller sections.  For tournaments, I will have my students combine 1 and 2 kata.  For one, it makes it longer and more interesting.  But it also brings them pretty close to their starting position.  Just in case the judges feel like being picky.  Actually if they perform their footwork perfectly, their right foot will almost be on their starting position during the final horse stance of 2 kata.  But since we open and close the form with our right foot, they end up a little to the left of the spot once they return to front position.  

It seems that if you add 3 kata to the mix, you get a little closer.  What are your thoughts on the subject?


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## Matt (Mar 29, 2008)

fnorfurfoot said:


> I'm sure that Joe Rebelo will have something to add to this, but I was wondering if anyone knew any history behind where the SKK forms came from.  I know that 2 Pinan is a Cerio creation.  Or at least, the 2 Pinan that we perform.  And 6 Kata came from Pesare.  Where did the rest originate?
> 
> Since most all Japanese katas are supposed to begin and end in the same spot, I was also wondering if anyone knew if the katas are actually a longer form cut up into smaller sections.  For tournaments, I will have my students combine 1 and 2 kata.  For one, it makes it longer and more interesting.  But it also brings them pretty close to their starting position.  Just in case the judges feel like being picky.  Actually if they perform their footwork perfectly, their right foot will almost be on their starting position during the final horse stance of 2 kata.  But since we open and close the form with our right foot, they end up a little to the left of the spot once they return to front position.
> 
> It seems that if you add 3 kata to the mix, you get a little closer.  What are your thoughts on the subject?



I've been looking into the history a bit, but I can't really give a completely definitive answer to this. I have an email from S. George Pesare stating that he came from California (i.e. the school of Victor 'Sonny' Gascon) with the 1-4 kata, and claimed authorship of kata 5 and 6 (along with a 7th kata not taught exactly in the Shaolin Kempo system). 

The 1-6 kata forms are not traditional Japanese kata, and are supposedly reworkings of the original 8 palama sets / pinions of Kajukenbo. Evidence is sketchy if these were ever actually taught at Sonny's Karazenpo Goshinjutsu school in California, and when KGS reps come to schools, they tend to teach the Kajukenbo forms. 

The general materials and style of the Kata series does mesh with the ingredients of the Kajukenbo sets. The crossblock beginning is reminiscent of the Kajukenbo salutation, and the movement style is also similar. The cup and saucer appears in both in similar movements, cross blocks, and the lead block / reverse punch combos. They aren't the same forms, but they do seem to share some DNA. They technically should have appeared between 1959 and 1961. Pesare started teaching them in the early 60's (1963?).

Up to '74 Honsuki was the top form in the system, then Sho Ton Kwok in '75. The explosion of the rest occurred later (78-80 or so). The form called 1 pinan in the system is actually taikyoku shodan which was brought in at least as early as Pesare's early days. Pinan 2 was a Cerio creation, and 3-5 was added during the time Cerio taught 'Chinese Kenpo' before he developed his own flavor (NCK). 

Hope that helps. 

Matt


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## marlon (Mar 30, 2008)

Matt said:


> I've been looking into the history a bit,
> 
> 
> A bit....Matt you are very modest.  There are not many out there who have researched SKK as much as Matt.  He usually has the answer or can point you in the right direction.
> ...


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## JTKenpo (Mar 31, 2008)

Years ago one of my instructors would have us perform 1-5 kata without interuption of closing and openings (except the beginnig of 1 and the ending of 5).  It did seem to make more sense as a whole then as 5 parts.  Hopefully Matt will be able to dig up the truth of the matter some day.  It seems if you ask 5 different people who "were there" you get 5 different answers.

Matt, are taikyoku son ichi and  taikyoku shodan the same form?  I always thought that 1 pinion was derived from tekyoku son ichi.

JT


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## 14 Kempo (Mar 31, 2008)

Matt said:


> The 1-6 kata forms are not traditional Japanese kata, and are supposedly reworkings of the original 8 palama sets / pinions of Kajukenbo. Evidence is sketchy if these were ever actually taught at Sonny's Karazenpo Goshinjutsu school in California, and when KGS reps come to schools, they tend to teach the Kajukenbo forms.


 

Matt, Victor 'Sonny' Gascon will be in my school this July. I can ask him about this and any other questions you and others may have. I will be posting about this visit in the Seminars thread shortly.​


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## DavidCC (Mar 31, 2008)

The pinan forms, at least 3 & 4 from what I have seen, are pretty close to the Shotokan versions.  Tang Soo Do also uses very similer versions, very recognizable.  I understand this comes from Nick Cerio's study of Shotokan, not sure how much of that he did...


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## RevIV (Apr 4, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> The pinan forms, at least 3 & 4 from what I have seen, are pretty close to the Shotokan versions. Tang Soo Do also uses very similer versions, very recognizable. I understand this comes from Nick Cerio's study of Shotokan, not sure how much of that he did...


 
you can add 5 pinan to your list of "used to be shotokan forms"
Jesse


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