# Master...or maybe not....



## LeiDren (May 15, 2006)

It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master. I was told that 4th was Master and 7th was Grandmaster, but one of my friends, who is in another school, got yelled at for calling his IV Dan Instructor 'Master'. Does it vary between institutions (ie ITF vs. WTF), or have we been misinformed? And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?


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## Kacey (May 15, 2006)

In the WTF, 4th Dan is a master; in the ITF, 7th Dan is a master.  Occasionally, there are different variations.  If you are told not to call an instructor master, then don't - you should always check upon entering a new dojang what the rules/expectations are.

As a 4th Dan in a formerly-ITF affiliate, I do not consider myself a master, and while I would not yell at you if you called me master, I would correct you.


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## Last Fearner (May 16, 2006)

LeiDren said:
			
		

> It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master... And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?


 
Technically speaking, Dan ranks and titles of instructorship, including Master and Grandmaster are separate, although there are typically minimum ranks required, and they do vary from one organization to the next. General Choi Hong Hi set his own preference for the ITF. The WTF no longer deals directly with rank verification as it has become the sole responsibility of the WTF to manage the affairs of Taekwondo competition.

The Kukkiwon was established to verify Dan rank promotions, and provides a detailed description of age, and time in rank requirements at their website (see article 8):
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/english/examination/examination08.jsp?div=01
However, there is no mention of Master, Grandmaster, or any other instructor titles because this is a matter for the Kwanjang of a particular Kwan or association.  Neither the WTF, nor the Kukkiwon specifies requirements as this is left to the individual Associations as to who is eligible to be considered a "Master."

When I was a young Black Belt (Back in the 1970s), we met Koreans from time to time who were 4th Dan, and called "Masters." The more that Westerners became 4th Dan, they began to deny that title, and said that you had to be 5th Dan. In more recent times (as more westerners became 5th Dan, I have heard many Koreans say that, in Korea, you had to be at least a 6th Dan to open your own Dojang, and earn the title of "Sabeom" or "Master."

Many people have associated becoming a 1st Dan Black Belt with being an "Instructor." In reality, Instructor training, and certification is generally separate from rank. While you must be a minimum of a certain age and rank to hold these titles, there are 2nd and 3rd Dan that are not qualified to teach because they have not become certified instructors. Thus, a 4th Dan might not be a "Master" yet, even if he or she is eligible to test for the "Master Instructor's" title. Eligibility, having the rank, and actually testing for the upgrade in title are two different things. Some associations don't have a specific test, but the title is conferred upon the Black Belt by the Grandmaster.

The USCDKA (U.S. Chung Do Kwan Association) under 9th Dan Sr. Grandmaster Edward Sell, has specific criteria for the testing of instructor titles which coincide with minimum rank requirements, but are not automatically granted at specific ranks. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Dan might be tested for "Associtate Instructor," "Instructor," or "Chief Instructor." 4th or 5th Dan might hold the title of "Associate Master," "Master," or "Master Instructor." 6th Dan and above are eligible to become "Senior Master" or "Chief Master," and the 7th Dan may test for the title of "Professor." Only the 8th and 9th Dan are called "Grandmasters."  You must first test for the Dan rank and pass the test.  Then you are eligible to test and upgrade your instructor level.

At our recent National Training Conference in Florida, I was sitting at the Head Table in the dinning hall with Sr. Grandmaster Ed Sell (9th Dan), Grandmaster Brenda Sell (8th Dan), Grandmaster Covenski (8th Dan), and my teacher, Grandmaster Alvin Smith (8th Dan). GM Smith made a comment that he was going to just skip 9th Dan and go right to 10th Dan (as in an honorary rank after death) since, as he said to Sr. GM Sell, "I'm going to be dead before you give me a 9th Dan!" Sr. GM Sell laughed at this.  Then, GM Covenski agreed, and said they can tie his belt around the outside of his casket, since they always give him such a long belt! Sr. GM Sell was laughing so hard he was turning red in the face. :lol: :lol2:  :rofl: :lol: 

Chief Master D. J. Eisenhart


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## matt.m (May 17, 2006)

You know I believe it is an organization thing.  In the World Martial Arts Academy in St. Louis I understand that they call 4th dans master.  However in Moo Sul Kwan, the school I attend, a dan is not considered master until reaching the rank of 5th dan.


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## Tony (May 18, 2006)

LeiDren said:
			
		

> It's recently been brought to my attention that I don't really know what Dan ranking is considered Master. I was told that 4th was Master and 7th was Grandmaster, but one of my friends, who is in another school, got yelled at for calling his IV Dan Instructor 'Master'. Does it vary between institutions (ie ITF vs. WTF), or have we been misinformed? And what 'titles', if any, are associated with the other Dan rankings?


 
Why on earth did he get yelled at? Sounds like an honest mistake! One of my fellow students called my instructor master and just laughed it off!


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## MA-Caver (May 18, 2006)

Tony said:
			
		

> Why on earth did he get yelled at? Sounds like an honest mistake! One of my fellow students called my instructor master and just laughed it off!


Ya, I was kinda wondering about this myself. Sometimes I'll say something like, they "yelled" at me and mean that they simply corrected a (bad) mistake of mine rather than get in my face and raise their voices so that everybody can hear and get spittle on my glasses. Depending upon my mood that'll start a fight or at minimum a walk out, be it boss, instructor, significant other, *whomever!* Get out of my face with that and treat me as I am... an adult human being. Hell, don't even do it to a child. 

It wouldn't impress me if an instructor did something like that, and I would probably consider finding another school if there were others about town. To me, an instructor (in ANY art) should maintain the same type of discipline and respect TO their students that they expect from them. Ranting and yelling at someone for a mistake made is something that over weight high-school gym teachers and football coaches do, *not* martial art instructors who hold promient ranks.


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## LeiDren (May 18, 2006)

Well, from what I was told, he was just irritated that his students thought he was a master, for whatever reason *shrugs*. Personally, I'd probably take it as a compliment, coming from another martial artist.


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## Miles (May 21, 2006)

Kacey said:
			
		

> If you are told not to call an instructor master, then don't - you should always check upon entering a new dojang what the rules/expectations are.
> 
> As a 4th Dan in a formerly-ITF affiliate, I do not consider myself a master, and while I would not yell at you if you called me master, I would correct you.



This is super advice Kacey!

People sometimes get hung up on titles.  They shouldn't, but some do.   I don't insist anyone call me Master either. "Mister"  is just fine.  (I do want to have some formality in the class).  Outside of the class, adults can and do call me by my first name.   Among other instructors, if they insist upon being called "Master", I'll honor their request.  I can respect the rank for what was required to earn it.

Miles


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## Zendokan (Jul 4, 2008)

I got it a little simplier here in Belgium, we use the dutch translation of master and grandmaster ( I'm Flemish). 
And the rules are:
- every dangrade except 1st is called master (meester) except when you are equal graded, then you call them by their name.
- 1st dan blackbelt is called instructor (instructeur) by kyu/kup grades. Here again the name thing between to 1st dans.
- their is only one grandmaster (grootmeester): the most highest ranking in the system.

It's simple and keeps the ego's in check:Meester ( the dutch translation of Master) means master and also teacher (like in schoolteacher) 
And because we translate master and grandmaster no other clubs can say that we are insulting their "master-ranks" by calling 2nd dans master.. I mean Meester.

Greetz

Zendokan


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## hapkenkido (Jul 4, 2008)

when i was coming up in the ranks i had seen 5th dans being called master. when i took a short break in training and visited other schools it was 4th dan as master. because of that i always told myself and my student when they would call me master, "i am not a master till my master calls me one". then one day after my 4th dan test he called me master and i have kept the title. but if a student just calls me Mr. instead of master it dosent bother me.


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## Twin Fist (Jul 4, 2008)

In my lineage, 5th is Master.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 4, 2008)

Last Fearner said:


> When I was a young Black Belt (Back in the 1970s), we met Koreans from time to time who were 4th Dan, and called "Masters." The more that Westerners became 4th Dan, they began to deny that title, and said that you had to be 5th Dan. In more recent times (as more westerners became 5th Dan, I have heard many Koreans say that, in Korea, you had to be at least a 6th Dan to open your own Dojang, and earn the title of "Sabeom" or "Master."


 
Same thing happend to me. I went to 4th and then found out I needed a 5th to do all my own testing (I opened the school, but my instructor did the testing.)

I'll worry about if I have to make 6th when I retire... BTW my teacher, a Korean master, says we are 'masters'. My good friend, who made 5th when I did, kid each other by bowing to each other muttering 'master.. master'.

I really don't take the terms all that serious. Now inside the dojo all rules apply. I expect bowing, total respect from each student to me and to each other. Respect for the dojo, concentration, etc... the whole 9 yards. I demand it!

But outside class, if they try to call me 'master' or bow, they know I'll strangle them. Shake my hand or call me Mr., yes, but on the street I'm just a good friend to ride the river with.

Deaf


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## YoungMan (Jul 5, 2008)

Kukkiwon policy establishes that 4th Dan on up is considered instructor rank, meaning you may teach your own class, judge, and officiate.
It says nothing about who is considerd a Master. I suspect the idea of Master is more a Korean cultural thing than anything written in stone. It is something that goes along with Taekwondo etiquette and culture rather than being an actual "this is when you shall be addressed as Master". Even in Taekwondo circles, it is done more out of respect between colleagues and students than a dictum you have to follow. Mister is just as appropriate. And I've never seen an instructor get offended because he wasn't addressed as Master. Not with us anyway.
It also takes a large ego and lots of insecurity to want to be addressed as Master outside class by non-students. Outside class you are governed by Western culture and etiquette.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 5, 2008)

Really it all comes down to how your organization sees it.


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## Drac (Jul 5, 2008)

*Hapkenkido* can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Combat Hapkido ranks a 4th Dan is required to be addressed as Master..


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## tellner (Jul 5, 2008)

As far as I'm concerned "Master" is just half of the word :shrug:

Anyone who demands the title _ipso facto_ doesn't deserve it.


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## exile (Jul 5, 2008)

tellner said:


> As far as I'm concerned "Master" is just half of the word :shrug:
> 
> Anyone who demands the title _ipso facto_ doesn't deserve it.



And we've known some in the past who indeed did demand it, eh? 

Someone made a good point above about how, if you're not in someone's org, you have absolutely no obligation to use an org-specific title to address them or refer to them, any more than a civilian is obliged to salute high ranking officers and formally address them by their military rank. People who keep shoving Master, or some variant of it, in your face and expecting you to kowtow to them on that basis have problems of a sort it's probably way, way too late to do anything about...


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## jim777 (Jul 7, 2008)

Drac said:


> *Hapkenkido* can correct me if I'm wrong, but in the Combat Hapkido ranks a 4th Dan is required to be addressed as Master..


 
I don't do Combat Hapkido myself (but only because the schools are so far from me), but I know 2 Combat Hapkido Masters and 4th Dan is where you get the title in that art. I might add that both guys are simply astounding martial artists as well, and in my humble opinion it would appear that those with Master titles in CH deserve those titles.


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## YoungMan (Jul 7, 2008)

There are people that I work with who know I hold the rank of 5th Dan in Taekwondo. They are suitably impressed by it, but I have never requested or told them to adress me a certain way. I'm just a guy they work with, although one who happens to possess skills and techniques they do not.
Now, they have also expressed interest in joining a class I am in the process of setting up. If that happens, they will be governed by Taekwondo etiquette and manners in class (meaning proper address). Outside of class, at work, it will be business as usual, unless we are engaged in some sort of Taekwondo-oriented activity and our respective roles come into play.
If they join the class, and wish to address me according to Taekwondo etiquette at work, that's their perogative. But I certainly wouldn't tell them to.


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## tellner (Jul 7, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> If they join the class, and wish to address me according to Taekwondo etiquette at work, that's their perogative. But I certainly wouldn't tell them to.



It's their prerogative, but I would certainly strongly discourage them from doing so. Work is work. Hobbies are hobbies. Personal life is personal life. 

When you're in class you act in a way that's appropriate for a Tae Kwon Do class. You wear different clothes. You talk in different ways. There is a hierarchy based on martial arts rank. 

When you are on the company's dime your etiquette and behavior have to conform to the company's requirements. The part of your life that is TKD can't be allowed to interfere. You take off those clothes when you put on your work clothes.

Suppose you and a co-worker were in a completely consensual BDSM relationship. What happens outside the office stays outside the office. One would not call the other Master at work or exhibit any number of other behaviors that were appropriate in that other context. When you're at work, you're at work. You address people in a manner that is appropriate and professional. 

Letting the martial arts relationships leak into a business setting might not be quite as extreme. But the potential is there. Best to leave the titles and reflexive obedience in the dojo and put on your business self outside its doors.


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## YoungMan (Jul 7, 2008)

But as I said, what they do is their perogative. Yes, as long as it doesn't interfere with company policy or how it runs, how they would choose to address me is up to them. I certainly wouldn't expect them to address me a cerain way. They might feel that when it's them and me alone, without coworkers, they can call me by my TKD title. It would certainly be awkward with non-students around. Again, I would never expect it outside class. And I'll cross that bridge when I come to it.
For the record, I always addressed my Grandmaster according to TKD custom regardless of where we were.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 8, 2008)

I know that in Kukkiwon taekwondo, fourth dan is the level where one can sign dan certificates, so I suppose that it makes sense to equate that with master.  

Personally, I'm much more concerned with the quality of instruction than with what title he or she holds.

Daniel


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## Dave Leverich (Jul 9, 2008)

It's all over the board for what's 'Master' yep, 4th-7th depending on the org in TKD.
I just answer to whatever they yell at me, er call me . In my org, Master is 6th (separate from rank, but 6th is required to become Master Instructor). 

I was at a dinner with an 8th dan Master, a 6th dan, myself and a couple of 5ths. Two of them were from separate orgs who had 5th as master and they'd often refer to me as Master, the 8th across the table from me would just grin and wink at me heh. So I rolled with it and had a chuckle with the 8th. 

Later when we were playing golf he'd say it as a joke, then go 'oh wait.. you SHOULD be a Master now..' ribbing me on my non-high-speed rank chasing hehe.


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## TallAdam85 (Jul 11, 2008)

in Michigan most of the schools and people I know are at Master Level when they get there 4th Dan. I know in TSD master if 4th Dan. But Master , Sensei, Grandmaster, Soku, Sifu, there all just a word. the thing that matters is how u think of your self and how ur students , peers and how u treat other people. Who cares what strangers  think of you not strangers.


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## irgordon (Jun 7, 2012)

Just do it like the Japanese, if yuo teach or instruct, you are "Sensei" lol...no delination or degree required....but someone said it before, typically its up to the individual schools or associations to make those determinations. Honestly, it not really important if you are just training and trying to become a better Taekwondo martial artist.


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## Kwan Jang (Jun 8, 2012)

Even the traditional Japanese bugei and bushido have distinctions between the levels of instructors such as Renshi, Kyoshi and Hanshi set by the Dai Nippon Butoku Kai. Just as the Korean systems have Cho Gyo Nim, Sa Bum Nim and and Kwan Jang Nim.


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 8, 2012)

From an administrative point of view, the answer would be the arbitrary guideline imposed by the organizational group.  This can be anywhere, as noted above, from 4th to 7th Dan.  I suppose administratively this makes sense.  From a realistic standpoint, it is pretty useless.  Being a 'master' means to have learned the basic/advanced applications to a high degree of proficiency be it an electrician, a plumber or a martial artist.  This would  by necessity entail enough time to be able to bring ones skills to this level, as well as the exceptional ability to pass on this information/skill set to the next generation of students.  

Unfortunately, in the world of martial arts, the terms master, grandmaster, supreme grandmaster, ultimate grandmaster are a marketing term as opposed to an actual indication of skill/teaching ability.  It has become watered down to the point that it is generally meaningless and not readily applicable to the majority that call themselves by the title.  As a general rule, anyone that calls themselves a master/grandmaster...aren't.  Those that others feel the need to address in this manner due to skill, teaching ability, contributions to the arts...are.

Perhaps a better guideline would be the founder or leader of an art bestowing the title rather than it being some automatic thing once a certain level has been reached.


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## Archtkd (Jun 8, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I know that in Kukkiwon taekwondo, fourth dan is the level where one can sign dan certificates, so I suppose that it makes sense to equate that with master.
> 
> Personally, I'm much more concerned with the quality of instruction than with what title he or she holds.
> 
> Daniel



Sir. I think you meant can recommend one for Kukkiwon certification, because in Kukkiwon taekwondo only officials of the Kukkiwon can issue and sign dan certificates. 

Technically speaking, the Kukkiwon recognizes anyone with a dan certificate as a master. The meaning of master, as translated from Korean, is a courtesy title like Mister. That issue has been raised by others on this forum many time and loud debates always arise when that happens. 

Where the Kukkiwon draws a distinction, especially in Korea, is the title sabum, which many of us in America call a master instructor. In Korea, the only one who can hold the title of sabum and be allowed to teach Kukkiwon taekwondo independently is someone 4th dan and up, and one who has also attended the Kukkiwon Master Instructor course and passed the exam that follows the course. Kukkiwon taekwondoin overseas take the Kukkiwon Overseas Master Instructor course to earn the title of a Kukkiwon international certified master instructor. There are three levels of certification: 3rd Grade for 4th-5th Dan, 2nd Grade for 6th-7th Dan and 1st Grade of 8th-9th Dan. The Kukkiwon Overseas Master Instructor courses are offered at the Kukkiwon once annually, and occasionally outside Korea.


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## bluewaveschool (Jun 9, 2012)

Since I am still not part of any org, I make my own rules on that.  Which is, no one is allow to call me master.  Then again, I'm only 2nd degree, so I wouldn't be allowed that title in any org out there anyways.


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 9, 2012)

In "Living the Martial Way" th author d\critiques an un named group theat devolved the title by reducing the rank at which it was used. His critique was that it was used at a rank where the entire system syllabus had been learned and now was used at a lower rank where a part of thhe syllabus was yet to be learned. In summary his point was; "How can you be a Master of a system where you had not yet learned the system?" 

As Kong Soo said, it became all about marketing. Customer walks in and sees people dancing in their pajamas taught by a "Master" and they are ripe for the picking. They sign up for Takeyurdough.


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## msmitht (Jun 9, 2012)

4th-5th dan are sabeom or sabeom nim(teacher/instructor) .6th is sook sa sabeom(nim). 7th and up is kwangjang(nim). I have heard from my korean friends that a school owner is called kwangjang as well.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 9, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Technically speaking, the Kukkiwon recognizes anyone with a dan certificate as a master. *The meaning of master, as translated from Korean, is a courtesy title like Mister*. That issue has been raised by others on this forum many time and loud debates always arise when that happens.



 Is that the official KKW explanation? I recall the discussion you reference, but I don't think that was what the KKW said so much as what some posters were hypothesizing. Could be wrong, but I thought that was the case. 

Pax,

Chris


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## rickster (Jun 10, 2012)

Mastery passes often for egotism

Ah, *mastery*... what a profoundly satisfying feeling when one finally gets on top of a new set of skills... and then sees the light under the new door those skills can open, even as another door is closing.

If you think you have mastered something, look around and see if it is unbeatable. Then you will see flaws in yourself and realize the travel to mastering is likewise to learning, it is infinite like space and time


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## Archtkd (Jun 10, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Is that the official KKW explanation? I recall the discussion you reference, but I don't think that was what the KKW said so much as what some posters were hypothesizing. Could be wrong, but I thought that was the case.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



That as far as I know is the official Kukkiwon position, when it's dealing with Koreans. A lot of the terms we sometimes use including grandmaster and supreme grandmaster were inventions of the West, especially Americans. The Kukkiwon classifies blackbelts  thus:  Yudanja - 1st Dan to 5th Dan, and Kodanja 6th Dan and up. I don't know Korean, but I don't think those terms mean master and grandmaster, the way we in America might understand it.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 10, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> That as far as I know is the official Kukkiwon position, when it's dealing with Koreans. A lot of the terms we sometimes use including grandmaster and supreme grandmaster were inventions of the West, especially Americans. The Kukkiwon classifies blackbelts thus: Yudanja - 1st Dan to 5th Dan, and Kodanja 6th Dan and up. I don't know Korean, but I don't think those terms mean master and grandmaster, the way we in America might understand it.



You're correct, _yudanja_ and _kodanja_ don't mean master or grand master. They mean "degree [dan] holder" and "senior degree holder" respectfully. I've never heard of a KKW explanation for the use of "master" and "grand master" in English. There was some speculation by MT members a while back, but no citation from KKW sources (books or web sites) as to why. Daniel Sullivan also pointed out there there was no real equivalency between those terms and "mister." 

Speaking as a non-KKW person, it's a conundrum. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Kong Soo Do (Jun 11, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> In "Living the Martial Way" th author d\critiques an un named group theat devolved the title by reducing the rank at which it was used. His critique was that it was used at a rank where the entire system syllabus had been learned and now was used at a lower rank where a part of thhe syllabus was yet to be learned. In summary his point was; "How can you be a Master of a system where you had not yet learned the system?"
> 
> As Kong Soo said, it became all about marketing. Customer walks in and sees people dancing in their pajamas taught by a "Master" and they are ripe for the picking. They sign up for Takeyurdough.



Written by Forrest E. Morgan.  Very good book that doesn't sugar-coat things.  It's been a few years since I read it, but iirc you are correct about the systems 'masters' bickering about what rank to make master.  And something about stripes on the belt maybe?  At the time of the book he was a 4th Dan in TKD but don't remember what organization, or if he mentioned which one.


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## chrispillertkd (Jun 11, 2012)

He doesn't mention it in the section Master Weiss mentioned but given his background presented in the "About the Author" snippet and some other comments about his training it's not hard to figure out who he's talking about.

Pax,

Chris


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 11, 2012)

In judo we are a little slower 

1st - 3rd Dan = Advanced Student
4th - 5th Dan = Instructor
6th - 8th Dan = Expert
9th Dan +     = Master


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## Metal (Jun 13, 2012)

In Germany I hardly ever see anybody addressing anybody as 'master'.

Over here the coach or trainer is just a coach or trainer. ;-)
Most of the time those people are addressed with their first names and it doesn't matter if they're 1st Dan or 7th. 

In my opinion respect is not being expressed by calling anybody 'master' or always yelling "Sir, yes, sir!". ;-)

The Korean 9th Dan holders I trained at I addressed as 'Master ___' though.


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