# Question about grabbing guns in self defense



## Zujitsuka (Apr 6, 2003)

Good day everyone.

GOD forbid that I'm faced with a gun weilding attacker.  Hopefully I will be alert enough to not let someone get the drop on me or be able to take cover and get out of Dodge.

I have seen live and video taped demos where the defender grabbed a semi auto claiming that if you grab the upper receiver securely, you will prevent the gun from firing because it wasn't able to slide back.

Is this true?

What about grabbing the cylinder of a revolver?

Thanks in advance.


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## Despairbear (Apr 6, 2003)

I am not sure that is right. The firing action come from the fireing pin striking the primer. The slide is not involved in activating the primer. The slide, powered by the recoil chambers another round into the reciver and cocks the hammer back. I am not a firearms expert so please corect me if I am wrong.



Despair Bear


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## 928Porsche (Apr 6, 2003)

Grabbing the slide *will not*  stop the gun from firing.  It may inhibit it from chambering another round, but I doubt it.  When it goes off, the recoil of the gun and your probable reaction of letting go will allow it to cycle.

The only way I know to stop it from firing is to restrict the movement of the hammer.  That will only work if the gun has an external hammer.


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## yilisifu (Apr 6, 2003)

If you seize the slide and force it back, the weapon cannot fire.  However, the odds are that you will fail in this attempt and get yourself a new navel.

If faced with a semi-auto handgun with an external hammer, you can:
(a) grab the slide and slip a finger between the hammer and firing pin so if the assailant pulls the trigger, it will strike your finger and the weapopn will not discharge.  This only works, of course, if the hammer is already cocked back.

(b) In the event the hammer is not cocked back, seize the slide and slip a finger BEHIND the hammer to prevent it from being cocked back.

If the weapon has an internal hammer, both a and b above are useless.  In any case, the primary idea is to direct the muzzle away from you and keep it pointed away from you as you execute your defensive techniques.


If the handgun is a revolver, you can:
(a) perform the same defense as (a) above if the hammer is cocked back.

(b) perform #(b) above if the hammer is down.

(c) if the hammer is DOWN, you can seize the cylinder and this will prevent it from turning, thus preventing discharge.  This does NOT work if the hammer is already cocked back.

Again, the best idea is to direct the muzzle away from you and keep it that way until you have neutralized the opponent.


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## redfive (Apr 6, 2003)

If you grab a simi auto by the slide, which is where you should grab. Some teach to grab the wrist or gun hand insted. There is a good chance that the gun will go off, but if you grab the gun like your life depends on it, which is the way you should grab it. The slide will not rechamer or cycle properly. this will cause a jam or the spent shell not to eject. You may get powder burned, your hand could get partialy cought in the slide, eject chamber, and the worst is the cut that you will get from the front site.
  My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks. Its a real wake up call the first time you try to disarm and the weapon does go off. I have found that just trying to focus on securing the slide is a lot easier then trying to mess with trying to grab or disrupt the hammer. You loose a lot of your leverage the further back on the weapon you go.
 If the gun goes off as soon as you touch it to pass it, then the gun will rechamber properly, just train your self not to pull away, and stay with the weapon and try to jam or pin the weapon into the opponent until you get a good grip or buy time to quick draw your own firearm or knife. Always use distractions while grabing the gun, kick, punch, spit, do it all.


                             Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## DAC..florida (Apr 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> *If you grab a simi auto by the slide, which is where you should grab. Some teach to grab the wrist or gun hand insted. There is a good chance that the gun will go off, but if you grab the gun like your life depends on it, which is the way you should grab it. The slide will not rechamer or cycle properly. this will cause a jam or the spent shell not to eject. You may get powder burned, your hand could get partialy cought in the slide, eject chamber, and the worst is the cut that you will get from the front site.
> My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks. Its a real wake up call the first time you try to disarm and the weapon does go off. I have found that just trying to focus on securing the slide is a lot easier then trying to mess with trying to grab or disrupt the hammer. You loose a lot of your leverage the further back on the weapon you go.
> If the gun goes off as soon as you touch it to pass it, then the gun will rechamber properly, just train your self not to pull away, and stay with the weapon and try to jam or pin the weapon into the opponent until you get a good grip or buy time to quick draw your own firearm or knife. Always use distractions while grabing the gun, kick, punch, spit, do it all.
> ...






I have never trained with a live gun so I cant argue with you on this but I have always been under the impression that grabbing the slide would only cause you harm and the recoil would still recharge the weapon?:asian: 

Great info..:goop: 


Love the screen name!!!!!!!


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## Wmarden (Apr 7, 2003)

Even clothes can cause a misfire when an autoloading pistol is held in the retention position(very close to the body at the side).  So a hand could very probably cause a failure to feed the next round.  

One thing to consider is that you are working with the recoil spring to prevent it from going back.  

I agree with "redirect and try to prevent the second round from feeding."


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## yilisifu (Apr 7, 2003)

Yes, depending upon the individual weapon, the slide may be rather stiff and difficult to slide back even slightly.  I prefer to go for the hammer......


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## Jill666 (Apr 7, 2003)

Actually, my first (and second) thought here is, why go for a piece of the gun?

I just seems to me that most MA's train to redirect the direction of the muzzle, then disarm. The reasoning being that if you face an armed attacker, are you qualified in that circumstance to correctly identify and inhibit the works & parts of every gun that could possibly be trained on you? 

Hey, if you are, and feel confident that between adrenaline and every other factor in a real armed attack, you can deftly use your hands to catch the slide/hammer/cylinder and do just the right thing to disable the gun go for it.  :shrug: I honestly think most could not. 

Personally I'd try for the frame or slide to point the muzzle somewhere else, then execute my technique. I am not getting fancy, or complicated. KISS. As time goes on and I use more firearms that may change... 

There is one technique I have learned that has the MA executing a fancy turn to grab the gun hand (which has been pointed at your temple). Then an open-handed strike to the underside of the tricep, then pivot so your back is to the assailant, with the gun held over your shoulder pointing away. Do you break the arm over your shoulder? No- first you strike the assailants gut with your elbow, then you use the arm break. Then you take the gun. 

This is the stupidest thing I ever saw in my life. I'm not doing anything fancy, I'm training gross motor moves only, and once the gun or gun hand is secured I am not letting go with one hand to strike the body before I break the jerks arm. 

IF the person gets close enough to put their gun on my temple, I am either handing over my wallet or I am already a bloodstain on the nearest wall, anyway. But if you train a disarm, for crissakes at least train with a technique that might actually work. Sheesh. 

What was the question again?   


Sorry, guess I just :soapbox:


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## Jill666 (Apr 7, 2003)

Oh, yeah, ok. Getting back to the topic I'd go for the slide if possible, but I wouldn't even try for the hammer or anything else except the frame of the gun to point it away.


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## Elfan (Apr 7, 2003)

I personal wouldn't try to grab a specific part of the gun in the hopes that in a split second I had correctly identified the gun, determined where I would have to grab, and then successfully grabbed it.  My first priority would be to get the gun pointed in a safe direction ASAP, if its pointed at the attacker and firers, well that his problem.


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## yilisifu (Apr 7, 2003)

Catching the hammer is easier than you might think.  If you just GRAB, but do so with your fingers spread, there's a good chance that one of them will catch the hammer.  Try it with a partner!

I fully agree that once the muzzle has been re-directed, one should forget about trying to acquire possession of the weapon and should quickly destroy the opponent.  Without his help, the gun is just a chunk of metal.


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## Cryozombie (Apr 7, 2003)

> _Originally posted by yilisifu _
> *Catching the hammer is easier than you might think.  If you just GRAB, but do so with your fingers spread, there's a good chance that one of them will catch the hammer.  Try it with a partner!
> *



But, PLEASE try it with a Not Real, Not Loaded Training weapon!  Id hate to lose anyone to a training technique, even if you are just people I "talk" with online...

Lets play safe.


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## redfive (Apr 7, 2003)

If your training focuses on trying to block  or disrupt the hammer, your realy going to be disapointed when you run across the Glock, even my small 357 revolver doesnt have a hammer. All guns have barrels or slides. if you concentrate on this then it does not matter what kind of gun it is. My intent is not to render the gun inoprable, but rather to get it away from the person trying to shoot me. All disarms start with a redirection of the muzzle, while side stepping , or shifting your body out of the way.
 I have a Dan Wesson 44 magnum revolver. If you get your finger cought between the hammer and the frame, you will get your finger smashed to hell and you will have the fireing pin stuck in you. So you can meet your same goals by simply grabing the barrel or slide. There are techniques you can do that will snatch the gun out of the hands before he or she even realizes it. 
 But as with many small frame automatics and snub noze revolvers, you will have to grab more of the hand then the gun. Then you are doeing more jujitsu style disarms as compared to leverage releases and snatches.

                        Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## Klondike93 (Apr 7, 2003)

If I may, I would suggest the video, Gun Disarms by Vladimir Vasiliev. He's a former Spetznasz (Russian special forces) who teaches Systema and does some good practical gun disarms.


 


Klondike (aka Chuck)


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## Seig (Apr 8, 2003)

I am not going to engage in the debate, I will however tell you what Stick Dummy and I did when were explaining a very similiar situation to some students.  If you force the slide back, even half an inch, it takes the gun out of cycle and it will not fire (semi-auto).  What we did was take my semi, unload it and removed the clip and demostrated this.  While we were demonstrating explaining we also explained that in 99% of cases, just give them what they want.  If you have no choice, get it out of cycle and then break everything attached to the gun. (fingers, thumbs, etc..)


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## yilisifu (Apr 8, 2003)

I should also mention that one should train to move the body out from in front of the muzzle at the same time that one seizes the weapon and tries to move it away from oneself.....


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## dogma173 (Apr 10, 2003)

I doubt this is true.  Grabbing the semi dosn't keep it from firing.  Even if you keep it from sliding, this does not stop the firing action. Same thing with revolvers.


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## redfive (Apr 10, 2003)

Of course it will not stop the gun from firing the first chambered round, but what it is likely to do is knock the gun out of battery, so as that it will either not fully eject the first chambered round, or will not cycle the waiting round.

  But who the hell cares. the main goal is to get the hell out of the way of the line of fire and  take the gun away. The gun jamming or not cycling is just a side effect. You just have to prepare for the fact that the gun will most likely go off when you touch it. there are ways to limit this by pushing the gun back towards the attacker, as compared to pulling it towards you, which will asure that it will go off.

 As for revolvers. If the hammer is back then your right , the gun will fire, if its double action and the hammer is down and you obstruct the cylinder from turning, then there is know way the gun will fire.

                Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## ydma1796 (Apr 10, 2003)

The moral of this story......  when performing a firearms disarm  the weapon *WILL*  discharge at least once. be ready for it and pray your technique gets you out of the line off fire.

Salute :asian: 
Kevin

just my 2 cents


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Apr 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Zujitsuka _
> *Good day everyone.
> 
> GOD forbid that I'm faced with a gun weilding attacker.  Hopefully I will be alert enough to not let someone get the drop on me or be able to take cover and get out of Dodge.
> ...



A friend of mine who is one of our black belts and is also in the navy has addressed this issue to classes on numerous occasions.
Gripping the cylinder of a revolver tightly enough should stop it rotating, but holding the slide of a semi-auto is a good way to burn your hand. Some people claim you can hold the slide forward from the back. This is a great way to break or lose a thumb.
The only safe way I know to hold the weapon itself is to jam a finger BEHIND the trigger, or place the web of your hand, between thumb and first finger in front of the hammer.


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## Crazy Chihuahua (Apr 10, 2003)




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## yilisifu (Apr 11, 2003)

That's right...it's what I described a few replies back....


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## lhommedieu (Apr 14, 2003)

> The only safe way I know to hold the weapon itself is to jam a finger BEHIND the trigger, or place the web of your hand, between thumb and first finger in front of the hammer.



The Secret Service agent who stopped John Hinkley from firing his weapon (after the first shots had been fired) at President Reagan jammed the web of his hand, between thumb and first finger, in front of the hammer - as he had been trained.  He did this while Hinkley was firing, which is pretty impressive if you think about it.

With respect to jamming the gun and preventing it from firing by interfering with the slide mechanism of an automatic weapon, I would like to make a few comments:

1. It certainly can work; there is an extremely good chance that it won't work, and that you will get your hand damaged while trying it.  Now your hand is damaged and you have less chance of retaining control of the weapon the second time around.   

2.  Focus should be on getting your body away from the barrel of the gun and on retaining control of the weapon at all costs.  Generally this means disabling and controlling the gunman so than he/she cannot fire their weapon at you.   Most effective gun controls that I have seen involve doing damage to the trigger finger, wrist, or elbow while getting off-line, and then staying off-line and retaining control of the weapon while following up with more attacks to the opponent until they are unable to fire the weapon.

3. Getting the person to commit to coming within arm's length is essential.  If their weapon is not well within the reach of both your arms you will not achieve control of the weapon and you should not try.

4.  When to try?  When you are certain that your life will be over if you don't.  In today's day and age, a lot of people will think nothing about ending your life even if you comply with their demands.


Best,

Steve Lamade


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## redfive (Apr 14, 2003)

People are missing the point of grabing the slide or barrel. Its not to jam the gun or create a miss fire. Like I said many many posts ago it is done to take the gun away. And none of these hammer grabbers have adresses the fact on, what are you going to grab on a glock or a hammerless revolver?. I'll answer that for you. Your going to grab the the slide or the barrel and you are going to redirect it and take it away. If it fires so what , your out of the way. If it jams fine, you still have the gun. But you have to grab it like you mean it, not like a wussy. Again this is done while throwing low line kicks to the legs and useing other distractions.

  The reason you do this is that if you grab the wrist alone, the opponent will simply switch the gun to his other hand, like any five year old would do. Or he is going to take his empty hand and smash you in the face with it.

                     Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## yilisifu (Apr 15, 2003)

I think it goes without saying that one would rely on redirecting the weapon if it has an internal hammer.

   I would also say that the odds of the enemy striking you with his free hand are pretty slim because his attention is focused on the hand which holds the weapon and also because one's strikes should be making contact at almost the same time that you redirect the weapon.


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## redfive (Apr 15, 2003)

I think worst case scenarios. What would I do if someone tried to grab my gun, I would break there jaw. So when I work with my friends with REAL GUNS with Loaded  blanks. I have them counter to the best of there ability. THen you see what disarms realy work and which look realy cool in th movies. You feel the recoil of the slide when the gun goes off, yet your hand is still on the gun and the gun has not rechambered and it has a stove top jam on it. But again you dont care about that becouse you just disarmed him.
  Know you can focus on clearing his weapon of the jam and preparing to return fire with it or you can draw your own weapon, for which you know better and can  depend on.
  To end this I will say that in the  end who cares how you get the gun away, as long as you do and you dont shoot any by standers in the progress. There are better ways to take a gun away and there are worst ways. Try them all and you will see. But doing it on a plastic or rubber gun only is not the way. Train like you fight, and fight like you train, and that is for real.

                             Your friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## Patty (Apr 19, 2003)

I study hapkido and a number of my teachers are law enforcement professionals and trainers.  One of the reasons they like hapkido are the gun/knife disarming tactics.  I've only seen them enacted once and couldn't begin to describe them, but they're actually very simple and highly effective.  Remember, these are techniques that these people use pretty regularly - they have to work.  Contact me if you can't find more info on this and I'll see if they will either reenact these scenarios so I can write them down, or if they'll give me a reference that I can forward.:asian:


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## Kope (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> *
> My group trains with live weapons, with home loaded blanks.
> /B]*


* 

The words TOTALLY *DELETED PROFANITY* MORONIC ACT just spring to mind . . .

Blanks, even home loaded ones, can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a good way to get really really hurt for no good reason.

As to the original question -- it depends on the make and model of the weapon and it's state (loaded or not, cocked or not, etc.). Basically, the correct answer is "sometimes."*


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## Tigertron (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kope _
> *The words TOTALLY *DELETED PROFANITY* MORONIC ACT just spring to mind . . .
> 
> Blanks, even home loaded ones, can cause serious injury, and even death. This is a good way to get really really hurt for no good reason.
> ...



ROFL!!!!!!

Does anyone remember how Brando Lee died?


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## Tigertron (Apr 21, 2003)

Don't waste your time worrying about where to grap on the gun. The Israelis have learned through numerous deadly encounters with terrorists, that you should deflect the gun away from you and IF NOT CONCURRENTLY, THEN IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP, with a strike to the terrorist's nerve centers.  Nerve centers being the eyes, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee, shin etc. That COUNTER STRIKE is the key. It stuns the CNS (central nervous system) and disrupt the terrorist's ability to continue the attack. Then, you can think about taking the gun away from him.


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## lhommedieu (Apr 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Tigertron _
> *Don't waste your time worrying about where to grap on the gun. The Israelis have learned through numerous deadly encounters with terrorists, that you should deflect the gun away from you and IF NOT CONCURRENTLY, THEN IMMEDIATELY FOLLOW UP, with a strike to the terrorist's nerve centers.  Nerve centers being the eyes, throat, solar plexus, groin, knee, shin etc. That COUNTER STRIKE is the key. It stuns the CNS (central nervous system) and disrupt the terrorist's ability to continue the attack. Then, you can think about taking the gun away from him. *



I couldn't agree more; hence my comments (on Pg. 2 of this thread):

"Focus should be on getting your body away from the barrel of the gun and on retaining control of the weapon at all costs. Generally this means disabling and controlling the gunman so than he/she cannot fire their weapon at you. Most effective gun controls that I have seen involve doing damage to the trigger finger, wrist, or elbow while getting off-line, and then staying off-line and retaining control of the weapon while following up with more attacks to the opponent until they are unable to fire the weapon."

The "Secrets of Professional Warriors" series did a pretty good job demonstrating the pros and cons of different gun disarms.  The instructors donned protective gear and used wax bullets to find out what worked and what didn't.   Emphasis on the tapes  is more on retaining control on the weapon with joint locks (after clearing the line of fire) than on striking after control has been achieved.  Presumably they''re good at joint destruction.

They claim that clearing the weapon to the inside results in much poorer results than clearing the weapon to the outside; hence their preference for techniques that clear the weapon to the outside. 

This seems to be a safe way of testing the efficacy of gun disarms than using blanks.  Maybe a paintball gun is another alternative (providing that you wear heavy protective gear as per above).  Water guns and red Kool-Aid would probably be a little slow.

Re. the instructors' claim that outside clears are better than inside clears:  I agree up to a point.  I think it varies by individual according to how well they have trained the hand movement to occur simultaneously with the body movement.  One of my teachers effectively (and consistently) clears the weapon to the inside while moving his body to the outside.

One factor that has not been stated much is the possiblily of by-stander injury while clearing the weapon.  If my wife is standing to the inside of the weapon, then if I clear it I will clear it to the _outside_ ...

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## redfive (Apr 21, 2003)

Well I may be a Moronic individual, but like I said earlier: " I train like I fight, and I fight like I train. And that is for real."
 Yes we use blanks and alot of times we use the military or police simunitions. I do not train with incompetent people. And for the record Brandon Lee did not die becouse of the blank load. he died becouse of the bullet head that was left in the barrel by the squib that was used in the prior shot. It was then dejected by the blank. Becouse people where incompetent not to first check the weapon. We have several safe guards we go through. I have faith in my disarms as well.  
What I do is Combative CQC training, not ballroom dancing. 
 I wont even go into how we do knife disarming. But if you never try the real thing, then how can you begin to tell others this is how you do it, no no this is how you do it, not that way. 
so if the best you have done is a plastic water gun from isle six at Walmart, dont even begin to tell me how, or this works and this doesnt. 
 You dont just jump into it, you start with replicas and plastic or wooden knives then you work your way up. 

  Martial training is a dangerous business, but not as dangerous as the real thing. The better prepared you are, the better your odds.  
 So if its not you cup of tea, fine. Stay in your airconditioned dojos with your nice padded floors and all your wooden, and flimzey metel sword and knives and have fun. During your breaks you can play cowboys and indians with your little wooded and plastic guns, and leave the real training to real fighters.

                     Your Moronic friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive


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## lhommedieu (Apr 21, 2003)

> ...if you never try the real thing, then how can you begin to tell others this is how you do it, no no this is how you do it, not that way.
> so if the best you have done is a plastic water gun from isle six at Walmart, dont even begin to tell me how, or this works and this doesnt.



Uh, that was a _joke_ .

Trying the "real thing" would be to use live amunition.  I'll go to the end of line, thank you anyway.   I was merely pointing out that simunitions make some kind of contact, (hopefully on armor.)  

Best of luck on your continuing martial arts training.

Steve Lamade


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## redfive (Apr 22, 2003)

And the end of the line is where you will always be, and that by the way equals last. Hopefully that will not be the way you end up in a real situation. 
  Everyone trains differently for different reasons. To each his own. And by the way we dont do it naked. We do wear protection, but THEY ARE NOT REAL ROUNDS. The point is that your are redirecting and grabing a real weapon and gitting to feal, hear and see what may happen in a real situation. Sorry for injecting a little bit of reality and realistic aproach. By the way we do it under different Scenarios, like ambush situations and carjackings and from behind.
 But I'm sure that will piss someone else of too. Most people do the disarms by having some poor sap stand infront of them and hold the gun out in aloose grip, while you snatch it away and quickly hand it back to them. Do your reps and then go home.
  Sorry, not me

                                                            Redfive
ps. dont forget to practice rifle and shotgun defence too. With and without a sling.


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## lhommedieu (Apr 22, 2003)

> And the end of the line is where you will always be, and that by the way equals last.



Redfive, 

I think that you should actually read my posts and think about what you think I mean before you fire off a reply.  The logical implication of your response is that you would be "first in line" for training gun disarms with live amunition.  We both know that isn't so, so why waste time debating a non-issue?

I've responded to the issue of grabbing the slide during gun disarms by making a few points based on my experience (limited as it may be) and I think that I have done so in a respectful manner.  The general tone of your points has been rude and intolerant towards anyone who does not train exactly the way that you do - irrespective of the merits of their arguments, which you do not bother to address.  You seem to lack a sense of humor, as well. 

I am happy that your reality-based training has taken you places that few on this forum have been able to visit.  Good luck on the anger management classes, BTW.

Steve Lamade


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## Kope (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfive _
> Well I may be a Moronic individual



I didn't say that. I said the act was moronic. Smart people do stupid things all the time.




> _Originally posted by redfive _
> " I train like I fight, and I fight like I train. And that is for real."



By your own admission, that's not the case. You are using blanks -- a consideration I doubt many "real" attackers will extend to you. 




> _Originally posted by redfive _
> I do not train with incompetent people.



No one said you did. And that's really immaterial to the questions of the responsibleness of your training method.



> _Originally posted by redfive _
> And for the record Brandon Lee did not die becouse of the blank load. he died becouse of the bullet head that was left in the barrel by the squib that was used in the prior shot. It was then dejected by the blank. Becouse people where incompetent not to first check the weapon.



It's very easy to declare people incompetent and compare them to yourself. It's much harder to back that up. In general, stunt people are highly competent, professional people who are well aware of the necessary safeguards. That people who are in general highly competent and aware of necessary safety measures had this accident happen anyway should give you pause to think about your own methods.



> _Originally posted by redfive _
> We have several safe guards we go through. I have faith in my disarms as well.



Great. Lots of people have died having full faith in the safeguards in place and their abilities in the past. That you are willing to take such unnecessary risks says something, but may not be what you want it to be.



> _Originally posted by redfive _
> What I do is Combative CQC training, not ballroom dancing.



Realistic training is possible with less risk than you are incurring.




> _Originally posted by redfive _
> Martial training is a dangerous business, but not as dangerous as the real thing. The better prepared you are, the better your odds.
> So if its not you cup of tea, fine. Stay in your airconditioned dojos with your nice padded floors and all your wooden, and flimzey metel sword and knives and have fun. During your breaks you can play cowboys and indians with your little wooded and plastic guns, and leave the real training to real fighters.
> 
> Your Moronic friend in the Combative Arts, Redfive [/B]



Your attitude is wonderfully dismissive and egotistical. It goes a long way towards demonstrating exactly what sort of people to avoid when one wants to do serious training. Obviously you know more than anyone else 'cause you're so tough and we're all worthless and weak.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Apr 22, 2003)

How many people have ever had a real loaded gun pointed at them ? 

And also how many people have ever had to deal with a real loaded gun pointed at them in a real situation ?


Chicago Green
Dragon  :asian:


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## Kope (Apr 22, 2003)

> How many people have ever had a real loaded gun pointed at them ?



Well, various studies using various methodologies put defensive gun use in the USA at between 1 and 4 million a year. So, probably more people than you'd first guess.



> And also how many people have ever had to deal with a real loaded gun pointed at them in a real situation ?



I'm not sure how this is a different question.


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## Chicago Green Dragon (Apr 22, 2003)

Well when I was first asking it could have been practicing with a load gun situation or anything else besides a hold up or attack.

The second question was directed at being in a situation where you are being attacked for real.


Chicago Green
Dragon  :asian:


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## moromoro (Apr 24, 2003)

about the question


only if you know you are going to die
you might as well try something


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## arnisador (Apr 24, 2003)

I saw a two-page ad in the current issue of Inside Kung Fu for paintball guns intended specifically for LEO training. Given where it was advertised I assume they mean them to be used for gun disarming and/or gun retention training.


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## Cthulhu (Apr 24, 2003)

There was a photo in my local newspaper of a police training facility where officers were using Tipmann 98 Customs with aftermarket modifications to make them look like M4's.

Cthulhu


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## moromoro (May 3, 2003)

> There was a photo in my local newspaper of a police training facility where officers were using Tipmann 98 Customs with aftermarket modifications to make them look like M4's.



lets keep this about the topic please!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Wmarden (May 4, 2003)

Just got the latest galls, and there are a ton of red guns based on various real pistols.  And about 4-5 based on long guns, the long gun ones almost cost as much as the real thing, at least in the case of the 870 shotgun anyway.


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## superdave (Jun 23, 2003)

I have had a gun in my face and can't say that I liked it much. Everyone who is proposing that you grab the slide or grab the cylinder of the revolver, had better wake up. 

You can bet your *** that if someone is going to jump you with a firearm, they are not going to place the barrel in the center of your forehead, chest or even one foot away from you.
Think about it, would you get  close enough to your victim, so they could grab your arm? 

Everyone seems to under-estimating a potential attacker. Try some disarms from five feet away, use a squib or a paintball. Then see where you stand.
Besides, have any of you ever had a muzzle of a gun near you head when it went off?

Count on there being a few feet between yourself and your attacker. With many modern firearms, especially handguns, having very slight trigger pulls, you might just find yourself going to the trauma center with a slug in you.

Now don't get me wrong, I am not trying to down anyone, or the way they train. I just want to get people to stay safe, especially if they are firing live blanks . A good deal of burning powder comes out of the muzzle when firinf those things.

Stay safe.


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## arnisador (Jul 11, 2003)

I attended a great gun defense seminar this evening by a former police officer who is now an academy trainer. It was great, but unfortunately I don't feel it'd be appropriate to review this closed seminar.


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