# Why do you like fighting?



## Jenna (Mar 16, 2017)

Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it? 

Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.

Thank you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


I've never enjoyed fighting. Every time I've had to physically defend myself, it was as a solution to the problem of the moment. I never get a pleasing rush out of it, just a case of the adrenaline shakes when it's over. As a child, I got into a few fights out of anger, and those had much the same result for me.


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## Jenna (Mar 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've never enjoyed fighting.


Even a little? It is a semantic thing? or you get no enjoyment from sparring or from termination of conflict through physical means? If not you can say to me please why you enjoy your NGA? is about defence maybe and defence is not fighting, I have that correct?? Your NGA it is not about fighting at all? I am interested.. pardon my questions


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 16, 2017)

I'm going to separate my answer into controlled fights (i.e. sparring) and uncontrolled ("real" fights). I personally enjoy controlled fights because I like being able to test my skills against an opponent and see the efforts of my training. As for uncontrolled fights, the only thing I feel while I'm fighting is the adrenaline rush, but then when the fight is over, I feel afraid. I am afraid not only of the strength of my opponents, but my own strength too. Even though I'm not the strongest guy around I know that I could seriously injure or even kill someone if I'm not careful, and that scares me more than anything else. I could never forgive myself if that happened, which is why I'm fearful of uncontrolled fights.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Even a little? It is a semantic thing? or you get no enjoyment from sparring or from termination of conflict through physical means? If not you can say to me please why you enjoy your NGA? is about defence maybe and defence is not fighting, I have that correct?? Your NGA it is not about fighting at all? I am interested.. pardon my questions


No worries. My training has always centered around defense. I've never competed, because the idea of fighting for fun was never appealing. As my personal training focus has become more intellectual (once you have solid defensive skill, that's what keeps me going is the intellectual pursuit), I've come to appreciate sparring more. I'd compete now if I had the time to commit and found a competition that wouldn't leave my arthritic joints screaming at me for days afterward. But I'd do the competition now for the camaraderie, the chance to learn something new (that intellectual pursuit again), and just to have a new challenge to work on. I wouldn't get into anything nearly no-holds-barred or full-contact - I just can't see myself hitting that hard without the necessity of self-defense or something similar.

For me, I liked from the beginning the potential for control that exists in NGA. I know there would be circumstances where I'd need to hurt someone, but I liked the option to control them without injury if the circumstances permit. It fits me.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I'm going to separate my answer into controlled fights (i.e. sparring) and uncontrolled ("real" fights). I personally enjoy controlled fights because I like being able to test my skills against an opponent and see the efforts of my training. As for uncontrolled fights, the only thing I feel while I'm fighting is the adrenaline rush, but then when the fight is over, I feel afraid. I am afraid not only of the strength of my opponents, but my own strength too. Even though I'm not the strongest guy around I know that I could seriously injure or even kill someone if I'm not careful, and that scares me more than anything else. I could never forgive myself if that happened, which is why I'm fearful of uncontrolled fights.


That's interesting. When you say "uncontrolled fights", are you referring to defending yourself?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



Don't like fighting.

Been in a few fights, never got enjoyment or a buzz from it.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's interesting. When you say "uncontrolled fights", are you referring to defending yourself?



Any fight that contains no rules or isn't part of a training session. So yes, defending myself is one of those cases.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Any fight that contains no rules or isn't part of a training session. So yes, defending myself is one of those cases.


When I think of defense, I'm not so worried about them getting hurt. I'll prevent it if the situation permits, but they created the situation, so them getting injured is on them, not on you.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 16, 2017)

consensual fighting like sparring or UFC can be great. it is a test of your abilities.
actual self defense fighting out in the common world,,not something i really want to take part in, unless i am forced to.  there is 2 % of the population that feels little to no empathy. for the rest of us it can be on a sliding scale.   as i get older the idea of taking away someones ability to provide for their family or taking them out permanently hurts my heart, and it happened over what?  my own inability to control my emotions or not walking away?  every fight you are in will change you ,just a little every time.  on some rare occasion that i will have to fight for real, and that person loses something of value, i will know it was not of my free will to have taken it away.


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## Flatfish (Mar 16, 2017)

I have not had to defend myself, so I cannot comment on that type of fighting. As for sparring, I enjoy the challenge, trying to outwit and outperform my partner and yes even in sparring there's a bit of an adrenaline buzz, especially when both partners get fired up and go a bit harder.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> When I think of defense, I'm not so worried about them getting hurt. I'll prevent it if the situation permits, but they created the situation, so them getting injured is on them, not on you.



I wish I could detach myself from the situation like that, but I cannot. Even when faced with someone who intends to hurt me, I find it hard to fight back for fear of hurting them. There was one case in particular where someone got angry at me and grabbed me by the throat, aiming to choke me. I waited until I was about to lose consciousness before hitting them back. One punch was all it took to get them off me, but I still waited until it was clear I had no choice.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 16, 2017)

Personally, I don't go looking for, or like to fight (physically anyways). If it is a controlled situation then that's different. That type of fight is controlled, and more than likely both parties are in compliance and respect each other enough not to kill one another. UFC fights are different also. The majority of UFC fighters show a level of sportsmanship and respect that is not going to be found when you are defending yourself.

So, sparring or UFC, sure no problem with that. Getting satisfaction out of defending myself or having to hurt someone to ensure that I live another day, no. Not at all.


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## CB Jones (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



Thereis some satisfaction out of coming out on top of a fight that comes out of necessity.


Now my knees hurt, my shoulders hurt, my back hurts....the last thing I want is to be in a fight.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.



I had to defend myself a few times while I was at school (this specific one was is when I had about .... I'd say 5 years of training). I was talking to some friends when a higher classman came and charged me from behind. Just out of instinct, I dropped my hip and turned enough to get him in a guillotine and a front stance. It through him off balance and he immediately stopped and grabbed my arm. I loosened up a bit but did not let go (I was smarter than that), and waited until he had calmed down and stopped struggling. I let him go, and he walked off looking awfully pissed. Looking back... I am thankful that I did not go any further than that head lock. It was cool when I first started (and I knew a little), but now I realize how lethal (not meant to sound like a brag) that I have become. I am scared of the possibility of snapping on someone, whether it is accidental, or someone pushes me too far.


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## Buka (Mar 16, 2017)

I love to fight in training, hate to fight in real life. Absolutely loathe it. Never enjoyed hurting or beating someone. Never enjoyed the emotion involved - or the aftermath.


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## kuniggety (Mar 16, 2017)

I am a non-competitive person. I think as a kid I went to one karate tournament and all I remember was just being annoyed with the point sparring rules as it was essentially just playing tag. I never did sports. As an adult doing BJJ, I roll (spar) every time I go to class and if I tap someone then I can go "okay, that worked" and if I get tapped, then it's "that didn't work... what can I do different?". I've never done a tournament. I'm thinking maybe next year I'll do one or two just to say I've had the experience.


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## Psilent Knight (Mar 16, 2017)

Unfortunately, growing up in bad neighborhoods and living pretty much below the poverty level may be the reasons why I have been in more fights than I can possibly count. The reason WHY I fought in those situations was pretty simple...._*to establish my place in the hierarchy of the streets*_. Plain and Simple. I fought to protect myself from the neighborhood bullies and (in some cases) to remind others where their place is compared to mine. It is my personal assumption that this is the number one reason kids, preteens, teens and young adults fight in the schoolyard and backyard.

I used to enjoy point competition as a teen and young adult in my early 20s because I was good at it, it was fun and I won way more times than I have lost. For me, personally, it was not so much the thrill of victory or even the thrill of combat. To me it was the feeling, I would even say elation, of accomplishment. Possibly somewhere in the back of my mind I may have also enjoyed the narcissistic belief that I proved that I was better than someone else; meaning the people I defeated in point competition.

Now, as an adult in my mid 40s this may shock alot of people to say that I LOVE Martial Arts but I ABSOLUTELY HATE violence!!!! I _LOATHE_ it! Especially senseless unnecessary violence that could have been resolved by more civilized means. It will take a whole lot to get me fired up enough to engage in mortal violence. But if I am pushed that far or if someone is threatening my wife or kids *WATCH OUT!!* When it comes to certain things that I must protect I can very, very easily turn that switch on and go into that dark place to defend mine. And I'm NOT fighting to hurt you. I embarrassingly admit that I am actually trying to end your existence and take my chances in court.

OP asked the question of _WHY_ some people like fighting. I cannot answer for every human being on earth but I can offer personal observations and pearls of wisdom I was able to pick up in my lifetime. In the uncontrolled arena, some do it for survival while others do it for sociopathic thrills. Some do it to defend themselves and their loved ones against street predators while others do it because they love being street predators. Some do it to have enough while others do it to have it all.

In the controlled arena, some do it for fun while others do it because they feel they have something to prove. Some do it to test themselves and have goals for their training while others just enjoy fighting...._just because_. Some people enjoy hurting others. Some may even do it because they would love nothing more than to be able to hurt, maim and mortally wound other people without facing legal consequences and some forms of combative competition allow them to do just that.

TO ME, all of these reasons really point to one reason and one reason alone......*that human beings are still a violent, primitive, savage and unevolved race of beings that still have such a long way to go*. _THAT'S WHY WE LIKE FIGHTING_!!

My apologies if that answer seemed too personal, judgemental or forthright but that is my personal observation.

Btw, I stopped competing even during my 20s because I eventually had a personal epiphany about competition and came to view competition as more harmful than beneficial.

Take Care Everyone and PLEASE Have A Great Day,
OSU!


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## Headhunter (Mar 16, 2017)

No I don't and I don't include competing or sparring as fighting as there are rules and restrictions and most of the time your friends with the other person. I consider fighting to be no rules and people trying to hurt the other.

I've had to defend myself before and I have never enjoyed it since pretty much every time has been someone who knows nothing about fighting, are either drunk or on drugs or have mental illnesses. So basically I don't feel good about fighting a amateur who's not in his right mind. Then there's always the chance you'll hurt someone or even kill them then that's not just the other guy who's life's been wrecked its his families and friends so no I don't enjoy it one bit and hope ill nevrr have to again.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't like any sort of real world violence where there is actual harm intended on either side. I do enjoy sparring and sometimes actual competition where the adrenaline is ramped up a bit. I enjoy the chess match and the experience of having someone else push me to discover my strengths and weaknesses.

I like the distinction made by these folks: Love Fighting Hate Violence


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I wish I could detach myself from the situation like that, but I cannot. Even when faced with someone who intends to hurt me, I find it hard to fight back for fear of hurting them. There was one case in particular where someone got angry at me and grabbed me by the throat, aiming to choke me. I waited until I was about to lose consciousness before hitting them back. One punch was all it took to get them off me, but I still waited until it was clear I had no choice.


That's an interesting difference. Thanks for sharing - something to ponder on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't like any sort of real world violence where there is actual harm intended on either side. I do enjoy sparring and sometimes actual competition where the adrenaline is ramped up a bit. I enjoy the chess match and the experience of having someone else push me to discover my strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> I like the distinction made by these folks: Love Fighting Hate Violence


I wish I could figure out why MA doesn't bring out my competitive side. I loved playing competitive sports, and when you get me into a sports setting where I have someone to compete with, I tend to like the competition. But never really with MA. And less so in other things every year, it seems.


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## DanT (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


The desire to humiliate and the fear of embarrassment... then I feel bad later. I think we all feel bad after we fight. In the moment, I get enraged and go ballistic, next thing I know I'm stomping on someone's head. Then when I get home I think of the look in the persons eye. I can't describe it. It's like fear and humiliation and pain all at once. The look haunts you. I don't like fighting for real. In a tournament it's one thing and you can just slaughter the guy and forget about it, but in real life... no thanks.


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

I don't like street fighting it is just a mean spirited exercise. But i do get a chemical rush from winning a fight. 

I have found it is also a bit emotionally toxic to avoid a fight.  Again i assume that is chemical.

So there is these two opposing forces working. The mental idea of making someone worse off vs the physical reaction.

fighting does make me completely present in the moment which is supposed to be zen or something. So if i am sport fighting and i am not destroying someone but helping to build them it is a pretty positive experience.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


I've never really thought of it as fighting.  Fighting to me is non-sports competition.  The type of stuff a person does when he or she has an enemy that is trying to physically cause harm is fighting.  All of the other "fight-like" activity falls under training or competition.  It's a way for me to test myself physically, emotionally, and mentally in the areas of hand-to-hand combat. Nothing in the world makes a person feel safer than the physical ability to over power someone or to physically come out on top in a physical competition.  Nothing is as more satisfying to fail in physical competition and then rise to be better than the person who defeated you the first time around.  Then there's where I am now with my sparring and training.  I get happy when I can "make kung fu work."  it means that I understand what I'm doing at a higher level of understanding than me just knowing the forms.  When I spar, I assume my opponents are trying to out do me.  But for me, sparring for me is less about my opponent and more about me.  It's less about me hitting them and more about me being able to say "I finally understand how to use this kung fu technique and how to be successful with the technique."


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 16, 2017)

This topic needs to be pinned. Everyone so far feels the same about fight-like training and competition vs Violence.  We all do martial arts.  I think something like this will be good for parents who think their martial arts will make their kids violent.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2017)

Fighting can be in different levels.

1. battle field.
2. street.
3. police/security work.
4. tournament.
5. unfriendly challenge.
6. friendly challenge.
7. spar/wrestle in class.

After you have trained single leg for many years, when you can use that technique to take 7 different opponents down in tournament, the amount of "fun" can keep you smile in your dream for many nights. Even money won't be able to buy that kind of fun.

If you break someone's nose in the street, you may have to hide yourself in Amazon jungle for the rest of your life.

There are big difference between tournament (sport) fight and street fight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it?


I don't know this can be called as fight or not. A guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl was screaming and asked for help. I walked over, got that guy in a neck choke from behind. The guy let go the girl. The girl ran toward east. I let go the guy. The guy ran toward west. Nobody got hurt. I still feel good about what I did that day after so many years.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's an interesting difference. Thanks for sharing - something to ponder on.



Remembering that particular event has made me think again about my feelings on violence and fighting in general, as well as question my own abilities. So far I've been in 2 situations where someone intended on hurting me and I couldn't bring myself to fight back. Both times were in defence of my own life, so I wonder what would happen if the violence was happening to someone I cared about. Would I be able to step in and help defend them? I'd like to think I would but I don't know.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


I don't like fighting.  At times it may be unavoidable, but I strongly dislike it and have been very successful in avoiding it and finding other options.  I don't like to get hurt.  And I don't like to hurt others, I get no joy from it.


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## CB Jones (Mar 16, 2017)

Sometimes you just got to be like:


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## Danny T (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



Having been associated in the sport mindset, personal protection mindset, and military kill or be killed mindset;
Enjoyment?
Combat Sports...Yes. Enjoy it immensely.
Violence against another...No. However, if it comes down to it, I'll do it in a hard beat.

Mentally there are major differences in sport, lawful personal protection, and military.
Physiologically the repercussions within the body are the same.
Same tension and anxiety, adrenaline rush, surge of strength and lack of pain, same heart pounding, same euphoria and then crash when it's over.


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## drop bear (Mar 16, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Sometimes you just got to be like:



Seriously. Tuck yourself in first.


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## Flatfish (Mar 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I wish I could figure out why MA doesn't bring out my competitive side. I loved playing competitive sports, and when you get me into a sports setting where I have someone to compete with, I tend to like the competition. But never really with MA. And less so in other things every year, it seems.



Interesting from my point of view.I have never been competitive (enough) in any sport I ever played. Just was in it for the fun. In MA it's different for a reason I can't quite put my hands on. Maybe it's because it's more personal, I.e. another person hitting you? Sparring within  my school is not necessarily part of it. I know what most folks can do and how I stack up. But I am excited (and nervous) to go to tournaments and see how my training stacks up to folks from other schools. Not so much a personal thing but more kind of a validation of my training?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 16, 2017)

Buka said:


> I love to fight in training, hate to fight in real life. Absolutely loathe it. Never enjoyed hurting or beating someone. Never enjoyed the emotion involved - or the aftermath.



This.


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## KangTsai (Mar 16, 2017)

Sparring/controlled - no different than a game of Murican football.
Real - depends how easy of a time I'm having.


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## thanson02 (Mar 16, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


Until recently, no.

I grew up on the farms and my dad belong to what I called the "cowboy" generation (pre-baby boomers).  We saw a lot of westerns, particular John Wayne movies, and listen to a lot of country music growing up because that is what my parents were into.  One thing that got drilled in our head was you never start a fight but you always stand your ground or people will walk all over you.  That and having nothing but brothers, we got into fights all the time with each other and we were always expected to stand our ground, no matter what. Luckily we never put each other in the hospital, though there were a few times where we probably came closer than we should have.  There is always anger tied to it and it always left a bitter taste in my mouth.  This mentality was further propagated by my first Taekwondo instructor and to be honest, despite getting some good kickboxing practice, a good portion of my experience with him was more negative than positive.

All the baggage that was tied into my previous training made the work I did in my current martial art more difficult when actually came to application.  However a couple years ago, I ended up having a paradigm shift when it came to my sparring application which got me to relook at how I approach conflict.

When I put my mind to something, my friends tell me that I am one of the most tenacious people they've ever met.  Previous to this paradigm shift, I had to fight through all the previous baggage I had just to be functional in the ring.  But one night I was on my way to class with a whole bunch of stuff running through my head and it dawned on me that for as tenacious as I am for everything else in my life, I never took that tenacity and applied directly to my sparring.  The idea never even occurred to me to take that approach, so I figured I'd give it a go that night and see what happens.  What happened was that my performance increased dramatically, I was able to pull off moves that I hadn't been able to do prior to that, and I got nothing but compliments from my training partners in my instructors.  On top of all that, after training was all done, I had the luxury of crashing at the Dojang that night and sitting on the mat, I felt a sense of calm and peace that I had never felt after of sparring match. Above all things I felt clean.

So do I like fighting?  The way we did it growing up, no and I will never go back to that again.  But what I'm doing now it's much better.

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk


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## Psilent Knight (Mar 16, 2017)

KangTsai said:


> Sparring/controlled - no different than a game of Murican football.
> Real - _*depends how easy of a time I'm having*_.



I admire your honesty and I also got a chuckle out of it too.


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## Blindside (Mar 17, 2017)

I enjoy the competitive aspect of testing myself against someone else, I enjoy testing the skills that I worked hard to develop and I enjoy testing the art that I teach.

I have only been in a couple of real world fights and while I didn't enjoy them, I don't regret them.  Those guys were dicks and threw the first punch.


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## Buka (Mar 17, 2017)

What I really don't care for are people who enjoy the hell out of street fighting. They look for fights, and always find them. I pretty much understand their physiological background and quirks, but I do not have much apathy, nor tolerance, for them. In any protective services field, or in police work, you run into these people on a pretty regular basis. When you tangle with them you are trying to control, they are trying to hurt. It's always a pain in the butt.

It sucks when you cross paths with them in private life. And if you're well trained it still sucks, because you're supposed to be above all that. 
But it must suck really bad to actually _be_ them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Buka said:


> What I really don't care for are people who enjoy the hell out of street fighting. They look for fights, and always find them. I pretty much understand their physiological background and quirks, but I do not have much apathy, nor tolerance, for them. In any protective services field, or in police work, you run into these people on a pretty regular basis. When you tangle with them you are trying to control, they are trying to hurt. It's always a pain in the butt.
> 
> It sucks when you cross paths with them in private life. And if you're well trained it still sucks, because you're supposed to be above all that.
> But it must suck really bad to actually _be_ them.


I've run into a few people I think must be this type. They seem to be looking really hard for a fight. So far, I've managed not to give them one, but I've had a couple where the fight started to seem like the safest course (dangerous road rage situations, trying to force me to stop and fight). And I've always had the same thought as you, Buka: it must suck to be that way. In some cases, they just seem angry at their core. In some cases, it's like they feel the need to prove something (to whom, I don't know). Either way, don't wanna be them.


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## Midnight-shadow (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've run into a few people I think must be this type. They seem to be looking really hard for a fight. So far, I've managed not to give them one, but I've had a couple where the fight started to seem like the safest course (dangerous road rage situations, trying to force me to stop and fight). And I've always had the same thought as you, Buka: it must suck to be that way. In some cases, they just seem angry at their core. In some cases, it's like they feel the need to prove something (to whom, I don't know). Either way, don't wanna be them.



In the UK whenever there is a big soccer match on, these types always pop out of the woodwork looking for trouble. Most of the time they aren't even fans of the teams playing, they just use the event and confusion to start fights. It gets to the point where they will even take on the police if they get the chance, and the only thing stopping them at that point are trained police dogs. In the words of Mr T "I pity the fool"


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Thereis some satisfaction out of coming out on top of a fight that comes out of necessity.


Thank you.. Would you be able to elaborate at all on that?


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

Buka said:


> I love to fight in training, hate to fight in real life. Absolutely loathe it. Never enjoyed hurting or beating someone. Never enjoyed the emotion involved - or the aftermath.


You can say what is it that define the difference between these two situation that mean one of which you love and other you loathe?? The difference is intent?? Thank you


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> TO ME, all of these reasons really point to one reason and one reason alone......*that human beings are still a violent, primitive, savage and unevolved race of beings that still have such a long way to go*. _THAT'S WHY WE LIKE FIGHTING_!!


That is a broad brush sentiment though one that might be exactly true.. Could it be *fear* or reticence in recognising this mentality within us that cause us to apparently loathe fighting (yet be prepared to engage in it)? what do you think?? Thank you for taking time to write out your reply


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you.. Would you be able to elaborate at all on that?



It's crazy to go out looking for a fight....sparring and fighting competitively in a controlled environment is one thing, street fighting is another.

But when you are in a situation where you don't have a choice but to defend yourself.....there is a sense of pride and satisfaction in your skills and in that you were able to apply your training and it work to defend yourself.

And I'm not going to feel sorry for any injuries occurred to my attacker.  They chose to attack me and I'm going to do what I must to defend.

And in the end I'm going to take pride in knowing that I was successful in protecting myself.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't like any sort of real world violence where there is actual harm intended on either side. I do enjoy sparring and sometimes actual competition where the adrenaline is ramped up a bit. I enjoy the chess match and the experience of having someone else push me to discover my strengths and weaknesses.
> 
> I like the distinction made by these folks: Love Fighting Hate Violence


So the difference is a moral one, they talk of consent and mutual respect.. So then where there are not these criteria, fighting is immoral?

I understand the essence of what they mean.. still it not combat, fighting and violence different faces on the same die??


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> So the difference is a moral one, they talk of consent and mutual respect.. So then where there are not these criteria, fighting is immoral?
> 
> I understand the essence of what they mean.. still it not combat, fighting and violence different faces on the same die??


The morality is one-sided. In one case, people have agreed to face each other and test skills within some ruleset. In the other case, one person has decided to visit violence upon the other without their consent.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I don't like street fighting it is just a mean spirited exercise. But i do get a chemical rush from winning a fight.


I am intrigued how you have said mean-spirited?? You could explain that term? Thank you


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The morality is one-sided. In one case, people have agreed to face each other and test skills within some ruleset. In the other case, one person has decided to visit violence upon the other without their consent.


there is not in some way an implied consent to violence assented to by a person if that person try to harm you??


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 17, 2017)

Fighting can be to defend. While violence is an unnecessary act associated with hatred. People will disagree about this, but that is (what I see as) the main difference between the two.


Jenna said:


> there is not in some way an implied consent to violence assented to by a person if that person tries to harm you??


If someone is TRYING to harm you, the only rule is to survive. If two people consent to a no holds bar fight then that's different. Ther is not the level of " I need to win or I will die" kind of thinking. It's like when two drunk friends end up putting on gloves and giving a go of each other. They aren't trying to kill each other, and it's just a good-natured fight.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> When I spar, I assume my opponents are trying to out do me.  But for me, sparring for me is less about my opponent and more about me.  It's less about me hitting them and more about me being able to say "I finally understand how to use this kung fu technique and how to be successful with the technique."


Thank you for your reply.. You let me  pick your brains yes??

What is your criteria for indexing that kung fu technique as successful? Is not that you inflict sufficient pain to cause your opponent to stop?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> there is not in some way an implied consent to violence assented to by a person if that person try to harm you??


I'm talking about the other direction. They bring violence in their attempt to harm you, but you didn't consent to it. That's why I said the morality is one-sided. If you compete in a contest by agreement, you are doing nothing immoral, nor is your opponent. If you are attacked on the street and defend yourself, you are doing nothing immoral, but your opponent is.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> Fighting can be to defend. While violence is an unnecessary act associated with hatred. People will disagree about this, but that is (what I see as) the main difference between the two.
> 
> If someone is TRYING to harm you, the only rule is to survive. If two people consent to a no holds bar fight then that's different. Ther is not the level of " I need to win or I will die" kind of thinking. It's like when two drunk friends end up putting on gloves and giving a go of each other. They aren't trying to kill each other, and it's just a good-natured fight.


I do disagree, but I suspect it's only a difference of definitions. I will visit violence upon an attacker, to whatever extent is necessary to survive. I will fight him so long as I must. By your definition, apparently, violence isn't what I'm doing. By others' definitions, I'm not actually fighting. I'm okay with both, though they are not my definitions.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm talking about the other direction. They bring violence in their attempt to harm you, but you didn't consent to it. That's why I said the morality is one-sided. If you compete in a contest by agreement, you are doing nothing immoral, nor is your opponent. If you are attacked on the street and defend yourself, you are doing nothing immoral, but your opponent is.


Ah ok thank you, I understand.. sorry I am too single minded! xo.. And so I am morally exonerated in harming someone -in proportion to what harm I have received- because I am not the instigator.. yes?? this is akin to legal definition, that is correct?? Thank you for your patience


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## Headhunter (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I've run into a few people I think must be this type. They seem to be looking really hard for a fight. So far, I've managed not to give them one, but I've had a couple where the fight started to seem like the safest course (dangerous road rage situations, trying to force me to stop and fight). And I've always had the same thought as you, Buka: it must suck to be that way. In some cases, they just seem angry at their core. In some cases, it's like they feel the need to prove something (to whom, I don't know). Either way, don't wanna be them.


There was a tv show on a few weeks ago about football hooligans and these guys train for months to get strong so they can go and start fights at football games, to them it's a sport. There was one case in Russia where they'd go into the woods and beat the hell out of each other to get toughened up for the World Cup. In my opinion people like that are just unbalanced


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> By your definition, apparently, violence isn't what I'm doing.


I agree with this. You are defending yourself when you are attacked, it is not violence. If you are defending yourself, you should not be the aggressor. Like it was said on this thread so many times, there are people who go looking for a fight. That is (my definition of) violence. It is an action done with intent to harm an individual. This can even be non-physical, but that is not what this thread is about (I assume).


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't know this can be called as fight or not. A guy tried to pull a girl into his car. The girl was screaming and asked for help. I walked over, got that guy in a neck choke from behind. The guy let go the girl. The girl ran toward east. I let go the guy. The guy ran toward west. Nobody got hurt. I still feel good about what I did that day after so many years.


You can say what is it about this instance of using physical force that you feel good about, but yet some other instances you might not feel good about?? Thank you


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Ah ok thank you, I understand.. sorry I am too single minded! xo.. And so I am morally exonerated in harming someone -in proportion to what harm I have received- because I am not the instigator.. yes?? this is akin to legal definition, that is correct?? Thank you for your patience


Yes, the concept (IMO) is similar to the legal question. If you have reason to fear injury, you are exonerated from any moral issue if you harm them. If you fear they will kill you, you are morally exonerated if they die in the attempt to protect yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I agree with this. You are defending yourself when you are attacked, it is not violence. If you are defending yourself, you should not be the aggressor. Like it was said on this thread so many times, there are people who go looking for a fight. That is (my definition of) violence. It is an action done with intent to harm an individual. This can even be non-physical, but that is not what this thread is about (I assume).


Just to clarify what I mean when I say "violence", it is the more technical definition. Like if someone were to say (archaically), "He visited violence upon him." That's the "violence" I speak of. It's connecting with someone with the intent to do harm, which I do intend to do when defending myself. If I get a lock and break/tear/dislocate something on them, that was my intent, as it will (hopefully) end their violence.

Just a different way of defining it. All good.


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## Jenna (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't like fighting.  At times it may be unavoidable, but I strongly dislike it and have been very successful in avoiding it and finding other options.  I don't like to get hurt.  And I don't like to hurt others, I get no joy from it.


Michael! thank you.. you do not like hurting others and get no joy from it.. yet if certain criteria are met, it is like you say unavoidable and wholly necessary to hurt some one yes? x


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

"Reward all those wise enough to join you, utterly crush all who dare oppose you, and do so in so savage a manner as to completely cower any others who would challenge you."

Qoute attributed to Attila the Hun


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> "Reward all those wise enough to join you, utterly crush all who dare oppose you, and do so in so savage a manner as to completely cower any others who would challenge you."
> 
> Qoute attributed to Attila the Hun


That fits my mindset about multiple attackers. Not always the reality, but my mindset, nonetheless.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> So the difference is a moral one, they talk of consent and mutual respect.. So then where there are not these criteria, fighting is immoral?
> 
> I understand the essence of what they mean.. still it not combat, fighting and violence different faces on the same die??


The morality  is an important part of it. The other part is the emotional content of the physical actions.

Imagine a physical action, let's say a left hook to the jaw.

Now imagine a couple of different real life situations where that action might occur and the emotional meaning which is taken in by the recipient along with the physical impact.

*First situation*: the recipient of the punch is a child being beaten by a parent who becomes abusive when drunk. What emotional meaning might the child take from that and what lessons might the child carry with them for the rest of their life?

_"I can never be safe or secure. The people who I love, who are supposed to take care of me, can turn on me at any moment."

"I must be a terrible person if even my own parent hates me enough to beat me like this."_
or conversely
_"Getting beaten and abused is part of what a loving relationship looks like."

"The way to handle frustration is to hurt other people."

"The way to be respected is to hurt other people."_

*Second situation*: the recipient of the punch is myself during a sparring session with a friend. What emotional meaning might I attach to it and what lessons might I take with me as a result?

_"Darn it, I need to work on not dropping my right hand when I jab."

"That's a really nice fake he used to set that up. I'll have to ask him how to show me how he does that."

"Don't get sloppy just because you're tired. Suck it up, fix your stance, fix your hand position, keep moving. You can do this."

"That didn't hurt as much as I expected. I guess I'm getting better at taking a punch."
_
Here we have two identical physical actions. In one case the recipient of the action may carry emotional scars for life which can cause them long term pain, mess up their personal relationships, and cause additional suffering for other people down the line. In the other case, the recipient of the action may become a better martial artist and be more confident in general.

If a physical action in a fight causes permanent injuries of some sort, then that is the same whether the context was a sportive competition or a street assault. However most fights _don't_ cause significant permanent physical damage unless a deadly weapon is introduced into the mix. More often, the lasting effect is internal and comes from the meaning of the actions to the participants.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Michael! thank you.. you do not like hurting others and get no joy from it.. yet if certain criteria are met, it is like you say unavoidable and wholly necessary to hurt some one yes? x


Yes, And in my opinion, even as a "last resort" people can be quick to engage in violence.  Meaning, people decide they need to fight because they "don't have any other options", when in fact they do, there are still ways to avoid it.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

When your life or health is endangered you do what you need to do to protect yourself.

Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, And in my opinion, even as a "last resort" people can be quick to engage in violence.  Meaning, people decide they need to fight because they "don't have any other options", when in fact they do, there are still ways to avoid it.


I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. _"I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!"_ Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> When your life or health is endangered you do what you need to do to protect yourself.
> 
> Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.


Agreed. And better yet to not have to face the 12, either. Most reasonable actions won't put most of us in court, except in extreme circumstances.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. _"I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!"_ Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.


Agreed. Gandhi wasn't an action flick.


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## Agoge (Mar 17, 2017)

I have been confronting violence head-on for going on 33 years and I can tell you that it has never been fun. I have been dealing with life and death confrontations for all of my adult life and though there are certain endorphins released, joy and fun are not equated with them. Just my opinion...


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for your reply.. You let me  pick your brains yes??
> 
> What is your criteria for indexing that kung fu technique as successful? Is not that you inflict sufficient pain to cause your opponent to stop?


Short Answer:
A successful technique for me is one that I can use as it's intended.  This success in entirely on the technique but my ability to use it as it was intended.  Not all kung fu /fighting techniques cause pain.



Long Answer:
Kung Fu techniques and fighting techniques in general aren't rated successful based on the pain that they cause.  Here's a list of Kung / Fighting techniques (because these techniques aren't only found in Kung Fu.
1. Breathing techniques
2. Footwork techniques
3. Structure techniques
4. Blocking techniques
5. Escaping techniques
6. Guiding techniques
7. Mental / misdirection techniques - these are the techniques that are done that interfere with your opponent's ability to what comes next.  A the most simple level.  I fake that I will punch but kick instead.  Screaming and yelling with a punch or a kick often serves as to intimidate your opponent as well as help with that Breathing technique that is listed at top.
8. Breaking techniques
9. Techniques that wear down your opponent
10. Killing techniques -These are techniques that are done with the purpose of killing
12. Grappling techniques
13. Set up techniques
14. Countering techniques
15. Striking techniques

I can think of more but as you can see there are quite a bit of techniques that are involved.  Each has a specific purpose, some cause pain other will help the practitioner to avoid or escape pain.  The criteria for indexing which kung fu techniques as successful is more based on my ability to understand the technique enough to where I can actually use it and for the technique to work as it was intended to work.  

Here's an example:  If you teach me an escape technique and every time I use it, my opponent gets a black eye, then the technique is not a successful technique for escaping.  You taught me a technique that doesn't do what it was intended to do when performed correctly.  Your technique makes a good striking technique but does not work as an escaping technique.   

Here's the other side of that.  If you teach me an escape technique and every time I use it, I can't escape, then my first task is to ask myself what am I doing wrong.  Do I have the understanding that is required to successfully use the technique?  So I go back to you for more information.  You show me the technique and that you are successful in using it in the same context that I'm trying to use it.  Sometimes this requires a physical walk through sometimes I only need to show what I'm doing for the instructor to see where I goofed.

Then you have things that just don't work regardless.  These are wasteful techniques (in reference to fighting).  For the most part these would be flowery techniques which serve no combat purpose and were never designed for fighting.  With these techniques I have to use them as they were intended instead of trying to use them for a task that they were never designed for.  TKD is a very good example of a system that has flowery techniques, which were designed to show skill and were never meant to be used in self-defense fighting.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Agoge said:


> I have been confronting violence head-on for going on 33 years and I can tell you that it has never been fun. I have been dealing with life and death confrontations for all of my adult life and though there are certain endorphins released, joy and fun are not equated with them. Just my opinion...



Are you Batman?


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## Agoge (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Are you Batman?



Maybe! But, I will never admit it....


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I wonder if this is related to the fact that there are countless movies (and other forms of entertainment) where the protagonist attempts to avoid fighting but the bad guys leave him no choice, whether that's a simple as blocking the exit or as extreme as murdering the protagonists family without the legal system being able to stop them. This allows the viewer to vicariously engage in the power fantasy of defeating multiple opponents and at the same time maintaining moral purity. _"I didn't want to single-handedly beat up 50 Yakuza thugs. They left me no choice!"_ Even if the protagonist walks away from the initial provocation, it never works and frequently ends up leading to terrible consequences before the inevitable fight scenes. You don't see nearly so many stories where the protagonist defuses or walks away from every potential fight and it all works out for the best for everybody with no one having to get beat up.


Interesting thought.  I don't know the answer, but it is plausible and could be at least part of it.

For me, I have walked, and even run, away from situations where I could have justified the violence.  The violence just didn't seem worth it to me, even if I could honestly justify it.  My ego is not damaged by running away.

I think a lot of people can't bring themselves to run away.  It damages their ego.  So they may try to defuse the situation, but if the assailant won't back down, they can't bring themselves to back down either and leave, even if it means running away.  So they justify the violence instead.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Not all violence is avoidable though.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Not all violence is avoidable though.


True.  But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.


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## Agoge (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> True.  But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.



There is no doubt a lot of violence that is committed in the name of ego. Due to people being people and ego what it is...there will always be needless violence.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> True.  But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.



True, but once you believe your life or health is endangered you do whatever you think you need to do to protect yourself.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 17, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> True.  But I bet a whole lot of violence that people decide "is not avoidable", really is avoidable.


The difficulty is in recognizing the difference between something you can run away from, and turning your back on an attacker. There are things I could have run away from 10 or 20 years ago, which I cannot reliably run from now.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

Also it can be easy to sit back and Monday Morning QB something  but you got to remember experiencing the situation and looking at it after the fact is to completely different perspectives.


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## Psilent Knight (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> That is a broad brush sentiment though one that might be exactly true..



You're right. It _IS_ a broad brush that is stroked in my reply and I debated with myself for a few minutes as to whether or not I should say that. But after pondering on your opening questions I thought you were looking for each participant's conclusion and the _reason(s)_ those conclusions were reached. But it's also possible that too much of my personal life philosophy/worldview was etched in that part of my reply.



Jenna said:


> Could it be *fear* or reticence in recognising this mentality within us that cause us to apparently loathe fighting (yet be prepared to engage in it)? what do you think?? Thank you for taking time to write out your reply



That's an interesting question but I'm not sure if it's fear or reticence in the recognition of this mentality. At least I don't think it is for me. It depends on how you or anyone else here will interpret the following statements.....

Based on the responses that I have read in this thread I think that basically everyone who has replied, though they are practicing Martial Artists, are peace loving people. But I also think (and correct me if I'm wrong guys) that they, like me, realize that in order to have _PEACE_ we must be prepared for _WAR_. I am looking at it from a societal perspective with that statement.

But quite a few of the posters here shared their _disdain_ for _troublemakers_; people who wake up every day thinking about nothing else except harming other people _JUST BECAUSE_! I don't know what you guys call such people but I call them sociopaths.

Take a look at the Yin/Yang in my AV. If the sociopaths are the yin then we peace loving Martial Artists are the yang. If there was NEVER such a thing in all of human history in which some human beings demonstrated violent sociopathic behavior I think the fighting arts would have never come to be because there would be no reason for it.

This world is obviously not entirely yang otherwise we would have a world with no violence, injustice or people intruding on the rights of others. And it is because of warriors such as yourselves along with law and order that this world isn't entirely yin either.

To more specifically answer your question; _*for me*_ I do *hate* violence and I do *hate* the fact that I sometimes have to engage in it and stoop to the level of these barbarians in order to not be yet another head on their mantel. If people like you and I did not do this, if law enforcement and laws of society did nothing then this world would degrade into a world of complete yin.

Please look at my AV again and this time look at it not as Yin Yang but as two individuals engaged in violence. They are doing the same thing. The difference is the intention of each individual part. One part decided to start it and the other part meets it in kind to end it. I loathe that some people like doing this and I loathe that they sometimes force me to oblige them.

I don't know if I answered your question or not. I hope I did.

Take Care and Have A Good Weekend,
Osu!


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> True, but once you believe your life or health is endangered you do whatever you think you need to do to protect yourself.


I am not suggesting anything otherwise.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Also it can be easy to sit back and Monday Morning QB something  but you got to remember experiencing the situation and looking at it after the fact is to completely different perspectives.


I can only say that I have successfully made the decision, in the heat of the moment, more than once.  And thinking about it the next day did not change my feelings about my decision.

Ones mileage may vary.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 17, 2017)

When you constantly run self-defense scenarios through your mind, you start to wonder if you could "finish the job" if the need arose. Most people would believe thy could if it was absolutely necessary, and others will say that they would find another way. But when the adrenaline is running, and you enter the zone, even the most docile people can become......unpredictable at best. That is what I believe martial artist really fear. Not IF they could do it, but if they lose control enough to hurt someone. Discipline is what martial artist gain, but it is the human element that works against this discipline. The realization that mistakes can be made, and there is no undoing them.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Not all violence is avoidable though.


Agree! When someone tries to rape your wife and you run away, it's better for you to get a rope, find a quite place, and hang yourself.

Fight, you may die. Run, you'll live. At least for a while, and die in your bed many years from now ...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2017)

If someone tries to fight you, you can

- play defense and test your blocking and dodging skill, or
- test your running speed.

If someone tries to hurt your love one, you should beat him up that

- his own mother won't be able to recognize him.
- he will regret that his mother ever brought him to this earth.
- he can't take care of himself for the rest of his life.
- he will spend hours looking for his missing teeth on the ground.
- ...


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 17, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



I always get flak from this but honestly I don't really care. I don't go through the whole PC thing of "self defense only and always try your best to avoid fighting." At the same time I don't go out of my to look for them and no longer provoke them as I did before.

I have had situations in the best where I would egg them on to fight by arguing with them. Now I just walk away and if followed then I'll fight. I been in maybe 7 or 8 fights and only about 2 of them were actually fights that were necessary. 

I enjoy the fighting but not the drama that comes with it because I don't enjoy drama. I get a feel of adrenaline and excitement when I fight that I wouldn't get from other outlets. Not until I began sparring more often anyway, point sparring is not something I really enjoy but when we get into heavier stuff that is when I have a lot of fun.

All the other times outside of the 7 or 8 weren't fights but sparring matches.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I always get flak from this but honestly I don't really care. I don't go through the whole PC thing of "self defense only and always try your best to avoid fighting."


I don't think it's a PC thing.  I think people change with age, responsibilities and skill development.  Live long enough and you may have a chance to see that monster that lives deep in you.  Once you see it, you'll know right away that it's best to keep that monster far from the surface where it can harm others.  You won't ever get rid of it because you'll be too concerned that you may need that monster one day, but until it'll stay safe beneath the layers of your personality and will power.

Sometimes it's age.  The older you get the less you can afford to be in a fight.  The older you get the less you can muscle through things and the less you can meet brute strength with brute strength.  You'll get to the age where you'll understand that you can be beaten.

Then there's those who have family.  If you ever have a family of your own then you're less likely to risk their safety.  When I was single, it was just me and I was more than willing to give a beating or take one.  But not that I'm married and have kids, that willingness may put them in danger.  There's no guarantee that fight will only involve fists.  When thing get out of hand, weapons can appear and people can get shot.  It wasn't too long ago where a woman had road rage and got her son involved.  Her son confronted the guys his mom was road raging on and the guys shot him.  She lost her son because of her actions.  Later on it turned out they all new each other and drugs were involved. It didn't change anything because she still lost her son, when she went to get him to "Prove" her point.


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## JP3 (Mar 17, 2017)

Man, I leave to do some real world work for one day, 1 day (!) and you guys and gals go and have a great thread.

I sort of land on and bridge the perspective of JowGaWolf and IronBear on this.  First, I'm way anti-bully, due to the below. Defend the weaker, stop dumb aggression, did that for a living through college in one of the amateur methods (bar security).

I originally got in MA when I was 8, as I started to get into a bunch of fights at school, starting about age 7.  The fights weren't my idea, I was smaller and younger than the kids who wanted to fight me, typical bully behavior and I had no idea how to deal with it. Put up with it without complaint to anyone for about a year and a half. Then a couple of the kids upped the ante and cornered me at once, just to see if they could I think. Butt kicking took place, with me on the receiving end. That time, I was sort of messed up and couldn't concal it so ended up having to explain it, and what had been happening to my mom.

Bless her heart (looking back on it now) all she could find for me was apparently a traditional aikido school.  If there is Any type of school for which an 8 year old who needs to learn how to defend himself should  be in... traditional Aikido ain't it
Scroll forward three years, and just because I had so much practice in fighting, unfortunately, I started to get better at it, fortunately. Yes, I did start to get enjoyment out of it. I would think that it was a relief reaction to be the guy on top at the end, rather than the guy on the bottom. Or the guy hollering insults at the other guy as he ran away, rather than vice-versa. That attitude stuck with me until I was... maybe 20, 21? Now black belted, full-contact experience, and relatively big at 6'3" & 225lb I got to the point where, in any normal, typical dumb guy dust-up I was not threatened at all by what was coming.  The attitude began to change. As it was so easy to win against someone who had no training or real experience, it was too easy, and the pleasure began to fade. Quickly.  It was still fun to"win" during practice, with my friends of the MA school. Does that make sense?

   Older now, and with a keen eye on whether or not what you do may mean that you and your family could potentially lose all you've earned due to a bad decision, restraint leaps to the forefront.  However, if someone touches my wife or daughter who does not have their permission and I'm there that person will pull back a nub.  Likewise, if a friend is in physical need and faced with a situation they did not start, again I am in... though with more restraint on what I do for them vs. wife/daughter.  I DO live in Texas, and certain things are generally excused in Texas, and other things are not.

... and... since this happened last year, if I'm hanging out with said wife, our friends etc... nd alcohol is involved, and some typical bar goombah wants to start something, just won't leave it alone and swings.... Hmmm. That guy gets what he deserved. And yes, it still felt good.

I apologize if my personal outlook isn't PC, but then... I'm really not PC, anyway.


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

I don't see any problem defending yourself or someone and having pride in your ability afterwards.

If you are actively looking for a fight you need to take a serious look inward.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2017)

JP3 said:


> I originally got in MA when I was 8, as I started to get into a bunch of fights at school, starting about age 7.  The fights weren't my idea, I was smaller and younger than the kids who wanted to fight me, typical bully behavior and I had no idea how to deal with it.


I share the same kind of experience as you have. I was the youngest one in my elementary school 1st grade.

When I was

- 4 in kindergarten, I started my first fight.
- 5 in 1st grade, I got into fight almost everyday during lunch hour and after school. I still remember one day I swung a bloom and fought against my whole class.
- 6 in 2nd grade, one day I bite on a girl's arm, made her cry, so she won't bother me everyday.
- 7, after I found out that my Taiji teacher taught me Taiji for health, I left him.
- ...


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## CB Jones (Mar 17, 2017)

I used to kick my mother in the stomach when I was a fetus....I'm not proud of my actions.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 17, 2017)

When my son was sent back home because he got into a fight in elementary school in his 3rd grade, I was so happy. Finally he was not a nerd after all. I didn't mind he got into fight. I did mind if he was afraid to stand up and faced challenge. I told him that I got into fight when I was 4 in kindergarten.

My son was not interested in MA. When he was in his 2nd grade, I almost asked my friend's son and his friends to corner my son and beat my son up in school. I still regret that I didn't do that, otherwise he should be at least 3rd degree black belt by now.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 17, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Man, I leave to do some real world work for one day, 1 day (!) and you guys and gals go and have a great thread.
> 
> I sort of land on and bridge the perspective of JowGaWolf and IronBear on this.  First, I'm way anti-bully, due to the below. Defend the weaker, stop dumb aggression, did that for a living through college in one of the amateur methods (bar security).
> 
> ...


It doesn't have to be PC.  It's what it is.   We are who we are.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 18, 2017)

So I read the first few responses, and have not had time to read through all 5 pages. However, I got the sense that it was going in the direction of "I enjoy controlled (sparring) matches, but dislike actual fighting".

Personally, this isn't the case for me. I absolutely love sparring with people. I've actually been told by (non-martial art practitioner) friends not to let people see it because it's disconcerting how much I enjoy sparring, whether I am getting creamed, the other person is, or it's an even match. I genuinely enjoy sparring because it lets me measure myself against others, and is one of the purest forms of competition I have seen.

However, I also like fighting outside of sparring/the dojo, and this is an entirely different experience for me. It's been a long time since I've been in a fight, and I have never been in a SD scenario. However, up until around 18 or so, I would purposefully piss people off with anger issues to get into fights with them. It was a stupid idea, I am fully aware, but I did it anyway. I absolutely loved the adrenaline rush during it, and the risk of what would happen in the fight. It might help that I never lost one of those fights, so I was overconfident, and stopped them before I got unlucky and fought someone better/more lucky than me.

As for why I like fights (sparring, or fighting), it's a combination of two things. The first is the intellectual part. This applies more to sparring, but gauging the opponents abilities, what they're good/bad at, and creating a plan accordingly is fun and a challenge for me. The second part is the adrenaline rush, and uncertainty of it. I can know for a fact that I am technically a better fighter than someone, but there is still that uncertainty of who will win, and that along with the adrenaline rush is probably one of the most exciting things I've ever experienced. It's a challenge for me not to fight...I am aware of the possible negative consequences, which keep me from it, but I also miss rush that I got from it, which I haven't been able to recreate in any other environments.

I actively avoid getting into fights (outside sparring) now, and haven't gotten into one in years, but I would be lying if I said I didn't miss it. The only part i don't miss is the after-fight jitters, and even those I see through rose-colored glasses.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Man, I leave to do some real world work for one day, 1 day (!) and you guys and gals go and have a great thread.
> 
> I sort of land on and bridge the perspective of JowGaWolf and IronBear on this.  First, I'm way anti-bully, due to the below. Defend the weaker, stop dumb aggression, did that for a living through college in one of the amateur methods (bar security).
> 
> ...


I don't see anything objectionable about your attitude. It's not mine - some different wiring in there - but it's off from mine by degrees, not magnitudes.


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## Jenna (Mar 18, 2017)

Ironbear24 said:


> I enjoy the fighting but not the drama that comes with it because I don't enjoy drama. I get a feel of adrenaline and excitement when I fight that I wouldn't get from other outlets. Not until I began sparring more often anyway, point sparring is not something I really enjoy but when we get into heavier stuff that is when I have a lot of fun.


Thank you for posting your views.. can I ask you a question please? Drama aside is there a scale of acceptability in that feeling of adrenaline or excitement you mention? You know what I mean, a sliding scale? or is it simple black and white, like just plain wrong / wrongminded / immoral and ought to be avoided or at least regretted afterwards? Thank you


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## Jenna (Mar 18, 2017)

JP3 said:


> ... and... since this happened last year, if I'm hanging out with said wife, our friends etc... nd alcohol is involved, and some typical bar goombah wants to start something, just won't leave it alone and swings.... Hmmm. That guy gets what he deserved. And yes, it still felt good.
> 
> I apologize if my personal outlook isn't PC, but then... I'm really not PC, anyway.


Thank you JP3 for taking time to note down your thoughts.. I like to ask you about this where you say it still felt good.. how do you feel about admitting that? that is the thing that cause you to say not PC? Hope that question make sense


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## Jenna (Mar 18, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> As for why I like fights (sparring, or fighting), it's a combination of two things. The first is the intellectual part. This applies more to sparring, but gauging the opponents abilities, what they're good/bad at, and creating a plan accordingly is fun and a challenge for me. The second part is the adrenaline rush, and uncertainty of it. I can know for a fact that I am technically a better fighter than someone, but there is still that uncertainty of who will win, and that along with the adrenaline rush is probably one of the most exciting things I've ever experienced. It's a challenge for me not to fight...I am aware of the possible negative consequences, which keep me from it, but I also miss rush that I got from it, which I haven't been able to recreate in any other environments.
> 
> I actively avoid getting into fights (outside sparring) now, and haven't gotten into one in years, but I would be lying if I said I didn't miss it. The only part i don't miss is the after-fight jitters, and even those I see through rose-colored glasses.


Thank you for writing specially since your view deviate from perhaps what I perceive as orthodox maybe.. It was suggested further up ^ that anyone looking for a fight needs to take a serious look inward, how would you respond to that? You know this term moral compass? where is your moral compass with regard to liking fights as you have said? thank you.. is appreciated


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## Rayrob (Mar 18, 2017)

Many years ago I filled my fuel tank and drove about five miles down the road. Just as I was about to turn right a truck rammed into the back of my car with such force that it flattened the rear of the car and chopped off the top of the fuel tank. As I pulled myself upright ( the seat back had snapped) I could see the road alight for about 50 yards behind me. I jumped out of the car as it was coming to a halt and stood there looking at the aftermath. 

You may by now be wondering what the hell this has to do with fighting. Well the feeling of elation at getting out alive and relatively unscathed is the same as I feel after a fight. On that day I was buzzing.


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## Kong Soo Do (Mar 18, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



From my perspective, anything in a controlled environment is not a fight.  I consider a fight as one person attacking the other with the intent of causing injury and/or committing a crime.  In my career I've had to use force against violent criminals in excess of a thousand times.  I don't even count them anymore.  I've had to cause injury and incapacitation on multiple occasions.  I've never enjoyed nor derived pleasure from any of them.  I do what I have to do to protect myself, others and even the subject him/herself from further harm.


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## Jenna (Mar 18, 2017)

Rayrob said:


> Many years ago I filled my fuel tank and drove about five miles down the road. Just as I was about to turn right a truck rammed into the back of my car with such force that it flattened the rear of the car and chopped off the top of the fuel tank. As I pulled myself upright ( the seat back had snapped) I could see the road alight for about 50 yards behind me. I jumped out of the car as it was coming to a halt and stood there looking at the aftermath.
> 
> You may by now be wondering what the hell this has to do with fighting. Well the feeling of elation at getting out alive and relatively unscathed is the same as I feel after a fight. On that day I was buzzing.


One is elation at having survived.. and the other encourages in you the same? It concerns surviving a fight unscathed or some thing else maybe?? thank you.. that sound like quite a traumatic event for you


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 18, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for writing specially since your view deviate from perhaps what I perceive as orthodox maybe.. It was suggested further up ^ that anyone looking for a fight needs to take a serious look inward, how would you respond to that? You know this term moral compass? where is your moral compass with regard to liking fights as you have said? thank you.. is appreciated


I can understand the idea that anyone looking for a fight needs to look inward, but don't 100% agree with it. I think that if you enjoy fighting for the purpose of hurting another human being, or due to anger, those are things you should look inward for. To me, the joy does not come from that, and I would not throw the first punch as, IMO, if the other person throws it, they are consenting to fight. Also, if I were to seriously hurt the other person in a way that required hospitalization I would feel incredibly bad about it afterwards. It's primarily the adrenaline rush and the uncertainty that I enjoy. 

I do have to look inward and remind myself that the possible consequences (hurting them, hurting myself, getting arrested, etc.) outweigh the rush that I may feel in the moment

As for moral compass, I feel that I have a pretty good moral compass. Like I said, my aim is never to hurt other people, even if that does happen. I'm also always there for my friends, When I have free time I do charity work, and I am currently in a much lower paying profession than I could have been in, primarily because in the lower paying profession my career is quite literally to help people.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 18, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for posting your views.. can I ask you a question please? Drama aside is there a scale of acceptability in that feeling of adrenaline or excitement you mention? You know what I mean, a sliding scale? or is it simple black and white, like just plain wrong / wrongminded / immoral and ought to be avoided or at least regretted afterwards? Thank you



When fighting no, there was only one situation where I did feel some guilt because the level of damage I did. I hit this guy in the mouth and busted his lip, later on thinking about it I felt guilty because I helped the fight happen.

It started out as a dumb argument then I escalated it by insulting him, fighting then was brought up and I told him "I don't fight kids." So that angered him more and I knew that would. He played into a trap that I subconsciously was setting him up for. 

The fight basically did not need to happen because it was just a guy who was very drunk acting stupid. I could have easily at any time just fed his ego and said "nah man I don't want any of that." At the time I even felt conflicted and asked the forum if I was in the right. Many said yes but when they heard more and more about the situation they began to say that I could have easily just left it alone.

So yeah there is a sense of guilt at times but it isn't black and white or on and off. I feel like these things are a spectrum or scale as you said. That particular fight was just all about me "looking cool." And that's why I felt bad about it because I guess deep down I knew that wasn't right.


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## JP3 (Mar 18, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It doesn't have to be PC.  It's what it is.   We are who we are.


True that.


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## JP3 (Mar 18, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you JP3 for taking time to note down your thoughts.. I like to ask you about this where you say it still felt good.. how do you feel about admitting that? that is the thing that cause you to say not PC? Hope that question make sense



Yes, Jenna the question makes perfect sense. It is also dead on target as to that statement not being politically correct (PC).

Personally, I am definitly not a fan of the politically correct speech movement, i.e. speaking in euphemisms about life and worldview observations.  I much prefer truth-isms.  As an example, I simply do not think of my fellow US people as Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Japanese-Americans and on down that line until you've included everyone.  When exactly did simple descriptive verbiage become taboo? That is an actual question for which I've been seeking an answer for about 20 years.  Certainly, every type of people has a hate word for them, mostly hurtful, some ludicrous, but the simple descriptive ones not being OK makes me frowny-faced.  I'm a white dude. One of my best friends from undergrad is a black dude. One of my closest friends and training partners now is an Indian dude, who is 1st generation American with both parents from India.  In the middle of my path to date one of my best friends was a Thai guy who I've moved away from in geography but not in spirit.

I know great white folks, black folks, Mexican folks, Japanese folks, Korean folks, Chinese folks, Indian folks of both dot and feather varieties (and both groups of them I know are cool with the humorous descriptive tag), and I know these same types of folks in Canada, Mexico, USA, England, Italy, Germany  and France.  So, I cringe when people stop and start their story when they start out saying for example, "Hey, I was talking to this hot Mexican girl .... uh... [looking around] Mexican-American woman and".... OR "Hey, I was talking to this Black guy .... uh... [looking around] African-American guy I met at the gym playing ball and".... 

Ouch, just ouch.  Just talk.  If you are not trying to be a douchbag, it will be clear from your words and tone. If you are... well, that's the same result.

Precisely what is wrong with "hot Mexican girl?"  In my opinion, nothing.  What's wrong with Black guy?  Again, imo nothing. White dude? Nothing, except that I perhaps use dude and bro too much.

Sorry, that was a left turn on the explanation.

With regard to PC on this precise topic.  In nearly-all MA schools, under nearly every instructor anywhere (other than the military services and peacekeeping/security guys/gals) we, as students, are taught, shoot, I can quote Mr. Miyagi on this, it's a great scene:

Daniel: So, karate's fighting. You train to fight. 

Miyagi: That what you think? 

Daniel: [pondering] No. 

Miyagi: Then why train? 

Daniel: [thinks] So I won't have to fight. 

Miyagi: [laughs] Miyagi have hope for you. 

** ----> So.... [Insert appropriate name of your martial art here] is to protect yourself, for self-defense, it is not to be used to intimidate or hurt others, to gain social advantage or for any other unseemly purpose. it is for self-development, for exercise, for health and a myriad of other reasons, none of which are to intentionally cause pain or injury to another outside of a self-defense situation.

But... some few of us... just can't or possibly won't stick to the script, usually for background (nurture) rather than make-up (nature) reasons, though some people are just, as Gerry notes, wired differently. We're honest about it - the liking of the combat, adrenaline, whatever... which goes against the grain of the teaching, and in some places some very skilled and well-respected instructors would be (possibly are) very disappointed.  Maybe.

There ya go.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 18, 2017)

That was pretty off topic but I often just refer to people as dude as "hey you". That never really causes problems, if I'm asked to describe someone then I'll say black guy/chic, white guy/chic, Asian guy/chic ECT.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 18, 2017)

JP3 said:


> Yes, Jenna the question makes perfect sense. It is also dead on target as to that statement not being politically correct (PC).
> 
> Personally, I am definitly not a fan of the politically correct speech movement, i.e. speaking in euphemisms about life and worldview observations.  I much prefer truth-isms.  As an example, I simply do not think of my fellow US people as Anglo-Americans, African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, Japanese-Americans and on down that line until you've included everyone.  When exactly did simple descriptive verbiage become taboo? That is an actual question for which I've been seeking an answer for about 20 years.  Certainly, every type of people has a hate word for them, mostly hurtful, some ludicrous, but the simple descriptive ones not being OK makes me frowny-faced.  I'm a white dude. One of my best friends from undergrad is a black dude. One of my closest friends and training partners now is an Indian dude, who is 1st generation American with both parents from India.  In the middle of my path to date one of my best friends was a Thai guy who I've moved away from in geography but not in spirit.
> 
> ...


Remaining off-topic for a moment (because I _never_ start the off-topic stuff!), I'm not a fan of a lot of the overly-PC stuff that goes on. I actually had a client group complain about me after a workshop I delivered. Part of the content was talking about stereotypes and biases. The CFO was offended that I mentioned a stereotype that included her ethnic group. She was offended because she felt the stereotype shouldn't be mentioned because there were plenty of people it wouldn't apply to. The precise point I was making was that stereotypes were dangerous because they didn't tell us anything about individuals. She literally suggested I shouldn't use any stereotypes in my training that would possibly apply to anyone in the room. So, she was basically offended that I acknowledged that stereotypes exist.


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## JR 137 (Mar 18, 2017)

I never liked fighting.  I never felt better about myself afterwards, win or lose.  Looking back, I guess I always felt like I did what I had to do, not what I enjoyed doing.

I was taught at a very young age to stand up for myself; don't start a fight, but don't run away from one either...

My stepbrothers are a year older than I am.  We lived in the projects.  I was the only white kid, they were the only Hispanic kids.  When I was in kindergarten, we heard "there goes the white boys!" followed by a group of 5 or 6 older kids.  We'd run home and just make it in before they caught us.  This went on for a few days in a row.  When my stepfather (who worked nights so he was home when we got there) found out what was going on, he said "either you guys go out there and fight them, or you stay in here and fight me."  They were waiting outside for us, so we went out and fought.  He came out a few minutes into it and stopped it.

When we got inside, he told us "if you run today, you'll have to run every day; if you stand up for yourself and fight, you won't have to run again."  He was right.

We got into fights after that, but they weren't fights due to being targeted/bullied.

Even at other schools, I wasn't bullied because people knew I wouldn't stand there and take it.  Why bully the kid who's going to fight, win or lose?

I haven't had to fight since college.  But even then, I never felt good about it.  I won far more fights then I lost, but I was never proud of it.

I respect those who say run away if you have to.  It was never my thing though.  I guess that lesson I learned in kindergarten stuck.  If I'm outnumbered or there's weapons involved, that's a different story though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 18, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> "there goes the white boys!"


When the communist party took over China, my father brought my family from China to Taiwan. For those local Taiwanese, they would call those mainland invader as "mainland pig". When I was in my 3rd grade, one day I got into fight with my classmate. The teacher hit the other boy once and hit me 6 times. The teacher then asked me if I knew why. I said I didn't. The teacher then said, "Because you are a mainland pig".

The war between Taiwanese and mainland pig existed for many years. I fought through my elementary school years just because I refused to be called as "mainland pig". When human try to beat up a pig, that pig will fight back.


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## CB Jones (Mar 18, 2017)

Got a nice anecdotal story:

Played football with a guy who liked to fight.  A big muscled up dude that played fullback in college.

His dad and him were known as hotheads and **** talkers.  One summer at the lake after having way too much to drink they picked a fight with a guy from who they thought was from a neighboring town.

3 punches and two broken jaws later they learned that they really didn't like fighting.


We found out couple weeks later he was a very accomplished amateur boxer from New York visiting in laws.

They saw a smaller guy they thought they could bully and found out the hard way what most people already know.....it's better to avoid fights.


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## senseiblackbelt (Mar 19, 2017)

because its challenging and its nice to be aware... I am talking about fighting for fun...


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## Transk53 (Mar 19, 2017)

Fighting may seem enjoyable, but for it is not. Just a necessary means of defending oneself. Actually hurting people isn't cool, and the aftermath of doing that never leaves anything but a bad taste for me.


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## Jenna (Mar 19, 2017)

JP3 said:


> But... some few of us... just can't or possibly won't stick to the script, usually for background (nurture) rather than make-up (nature) reasons, though some people are just, as Gerry notes, wired differently. We're honest about it - the liking of the combat, adrenaline, whatever... which goes against the grain of the teaching, and in some places some very skilled and well-respected instructors would be (possibly are) very disappointed.  Maybe.
> 
> There ya go.


I value your forthrightness and honesty @JP3 and like you say left turn, to me that is just the nature of all good conversation I think if we are not to be conditioned as robots so thank you for left turn xo 

And maybe I push my luck and ask another question please about your left turn.. can you comment on what is the link or relation between these two things.. ie. political correctness which curtails ways of speech, and a social distaste for the liking of fighting?


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## Jenna (Mar 19, 2017)

senseiblackbelt said:


> because its challenging and its nice to be aware... I am talking about fighting for fun...


When you say aware.. could you explain please in what way you mean that to be aware? Thank you


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## JP3 (Mar 19, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Can you comment on what is the link or relation between these two things.. ie. political correctness which curtails ways of speech, and a social distaste for the liking of fighting?



I can attempt it.  I am not positive what I am trying to describe is actually "political correctness," so much as it may be potentially misguided opinion.  I think that everyone can agree on the following statement taken in a vacuum:

Initiating a fight with the sole intention of causing pain or injury to another is wrong.

Some (most I would think) would say that to use MA skills against the person who did so initiate a fight is acceptable, sometimes even honorable/required behavior.  In the thread responses above, some of the folks - and I respect all of y'all for your honesty of response - admit to, at one point in their lives, being such an instigator, and for various reasons, found the feeling of coming out a victor one of pleasure.  My inquiry into this feeling would be as to the nature of this pleasure.... was it mere endorphin release at the end of an adrenalin dump, which one might also create with the comnpletion of a strenuous workout? Or, is it something else?  Kong Soo Do's response above, indicates to me that there is a maturation process at work. Having delivered... ahh... knowledge in something like 1,000+ encounters, and having had to injure persons to control a bad situation, often and over time, seems to get rid of the... I struggle for a word describing a concept here... the pleasure of surviving intact combined with the pleasure of knowing the other individual does not share the same feeling?  Hard to get a grip on that.

Anyway... the link between PC-speak and the not liking to fight is that, really we're not trained to fight, we're trained to stop fights, and to speak about it in other terms is frowned upon, in much the same way that saying Black Guy is frowned upon in many areas and there is some societal pressure to conform such speech to the mainstream, i.e. African-American Man.  So, to complete the analogy, saying "I like to fight," is frowned on, and society (of the martial artists) puts pressure on all of us to say, "I really don't like to fight, but when I have to I will and I will enjoy ruining your day for making such a dumb decision."  Well... that last bit is probably my own spin, but hey...


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## senseiblackbelt (Mar 20, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you say aware.. could you explain please in what way you mean that to be aware? Thank you


when you are fighting you need 
 to be aware and have your eyes open so that you can detect any kick punch or trick your opponent is trying to use and work out a successful counter attack to that


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## Obito Uchiha (Mar 22, 2017)

Puberty issues.


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## Balrog (Mar 22, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.


I hate fighting.  That's why I studied martial arts.  I learned to fight so that I could learn how to not fight.


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## donald1 (Mar 22, 2017)

I like the benefits. In a fight you gotta think quick. Obviously you cant just stand there and think how am I going to strike... I know I learned that one the hard way. Also you get a good sense of how you prefer fighting. What works for you.with practice you learn to pay attention to detail. And eventually... your fighting begins to look less awkward and more like... actual fighting ya know. Experience really is a good teacher!


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## Dylan9d (Mar 23, 2017)

Jenna said:


> When you say aware.. could you explain please in what way you mean that to be aware? Thank you



Maybe a bit offtopic and no weird intentions involved, BUT you are very pretty.......  just saying.

Ontopic, I don't like fighting


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## Langenschwert (Mar 23, 2017)

I like this quote from Madmonk on MAP:

"To be a martial artist you don't have to just be a fighter, but you have to at least be a fighter"

It's important to try out your stuff if you want to be assured of your own competency. Outside of "real" encounters (which are to be avoided), the only way to do it is to fight your training partners in varying formats. It also provides an inoculation to violence in a way that no other training can.

So I like to fight because it points out flaws in my abilities and will hopefully prepare me somewhat for a real encounter should one happen. I also like it because it's fun! Actually, mostly because it's fun. The chances of needing to use my training for real are infinitesimally small.

It's a win-win. The next best thing to pulling off a perfect technique is being on the receiving end of it!


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## Dylan9d (Mar 24, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> I like this quote from Madmonk on MAP:
> 
> "To be a martial artist you don't have to just be a fighter, but you have to at least be a fighter"
> 
> ...



So you are actually saying you like to spar.......because there is a distinct difference between sparring and fighting.....

I like sparring too...


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## Langenschwert (Mar 24, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> So you are actually saying you like to spar.......because there is a distinct difference between sparring and fighting.....
> 
> I like sparring too...



Within civilian confines, that's all that's legal. Besides, going out and getting into real fights is not only illegal, but stupid. I have no intention of joining the military or police at my age, so there you go. 

By that rationale, nothing short of some kind of lethal combat is "fighting". It's a slippery slope. Where is the line between fighting and sparring? Isn't sparring a form of controlled fighting? Is an MMA match a fight, but a Judo match not? Neither one has lethal intent, only to win a sporting contest. Both are plenty rough, and can result in injuries far worse than a barroom scuffle. Just curious as to where you draw the line.


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## Ironbear24 (Mar 24, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> Within civilian confines, that's all that's legal. Besides, going out and getting into real fights is not only illegal, but stupid. I have no intention of joining the military or police at my age, so there you go.
> 
> By that rationale, nothing short of some kind of lethal combat is "fighting". It's a slippery slope. Where is the line between fighting and sparring? Isn't sparring a form of controlled fighting? Is an MMA match a fight, but a Judo match not? Neither one has lethal intent, only to win a sporting contest. Both are plenty rough, and can result in injuries far worse than a barroom scuffle. Just curious as to where you draw the line.



When we spar we are supposed to not harm eachother too much. When we fight we are intending to do harm.


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 24, 2017)

Well, fighting will most likely cause that adrenaline rush in a person. I guess how their body interprets that rush, as a thought of "awesome! Go wild with it!" or "on no, somethings wrong, panic!" will determine more if they like fighting or not.
I personally can't say either way, In my 10 years of martial arts training, I've never been in a real fight...  I've had a couple of instances, but chose to talk the situation down and avoid letting it become physical.


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## Jenna (Mar 25, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> but chose to talk the situation down and avoid letting it become physical.


Dumb question maybe.. common sense question perhaps and but why did you choose this?


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 25, 2017)

Langenschwert said:


> By that rationale, nothing short of some kind of lethal combat is "fighting". It's a slippery slope. Where is the line between fighting and sparring? Isn't sparring a form of controlled fighting? Is an MMA match a fight, but a Judo match not? Neither one has lethal intent, only to win a sporting contest. Both are plenty rough, and can result in injuries far worse than a barroom scuffle. Just curious as to where you draw the line.



The way that I see it, is that it depends on the other person (opponent) whether it is a "fight" or a "match". Now, I am not talking about letting them decide whether you should fight, or try to talk down the situation. I am talking about the intent of actions, ad the go through of those actions. So to this extent, I agree with you. But some people just thrive in a good match with someone else.
 A personal example of this is the time I went to a church camp for the fall break. Ther was this big.....bubble made of thick fabric that acted like a trampoline. One of my friends on the trip had a wrestling background and was trying to convince someone to have a quick match with him. There was no "evil" intent, just someone wanting some fun the way he knew how. I ended up volunteering for a match, and he didn't want to have a match with me because he knew I had an MA background. I ended up having a match with the other friend that was looking for some fun as well, and we knew each other. I wonder if the friend who started it would have had a match with me if he knew that my art had very little grappling training. 

Moral of this story is, the difference between a "fight" and a "match" (at leat how I see it) depends on the intent of your opponent and yourself. As can be seen by the verse views discussed on this thread.


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## drop bear (Mar 26, 2017)

Fight with bad intentions is the advice we send our guys into competition with.

That and go to the toilet before you get your gloves signed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 26, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Fight with bad intentions is the advice we send our guys into competition with.
> 
> That and go to the toilet before you get your gloves signed.


Both of those are good reasons for me not to compete.


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## Millennial Martial Artist (Mar 26, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Dumb question maybe.. common sense question perhaps and but why did you choose this?


No such thing as a dumb questions!
In one situation, I was helping a friend out, and things escalated to a point to where a guy pulled a knife out and threatened me saying I needed to leave. I simply backed away and talked to him. However, someone else stepped in to deflate the situation, or else I would have had to fight most likely. The smartest fights are the ones avoided, because in any real fight, you will get hit, in a knife fight, you will get cut, and in a gun fight, the gun will go off. Always smarter to stay out of harms way and simply walk away if at all possible


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## Jenna (Mar 26, 2017)

Millennial Martial Artist said:


> No such thing as a dumb questions!
> In one situation, I was helping a friend out, and things escalated to a point to where a guy pulled a knife out and threatened me saying I needed to leave. I simply backed away and talked to him. However, someone else stepped in to deflate the situation, or else I would have had to fight most likely. The smartest fights are the ones avoided, because in any real fight, you will get hit, in a knife fight, you will get cut, and in a gun fight, the gun will go off. Always smarter to stay out of harms way and simply walk away if at all possible


Thank you for your courteous reply. If it is ok I should like to ask another question please.. so like some one else interceded and there was no fight which is proof the fight was avoidable.  Knowing that now, how would you view your self had you chosen to fight in that situation? Hope that is not too convoluted a question.. Thank you.


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## Tames D (Mar 26, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Maybe a bit offtopic and no weird intentions involved, BUT you are very pretty.......  just saying.


Them thars fightin words


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 26, 2017)

Tames D said:


> Them thars fightin words


Spoken like someone from my my neck of the woods, TD.


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## Ben S (Mar 27, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I'm going to separate my answer into controlled fights (i.e. sparring) and uncontrolled ("real" fights). I personally enjoy controlled fights because I like being able to test my skills against an opponent and see the efforts of my training. As for uncontrolled fights, the only thing I feel while I'm fighting is the adrenaline rush, but then when the fight is over, I feel afraid. I am afraid not only of the strength of my opponents, but my own strength too. Even though I'm not the strongest guy around I know that I could seriously injure or even kill someone if I'm not careful, and that scares me more than anything else. I could never forgive myself if that happened, which is why I'm fearful of uncontrolled fights.



I agree completely with this - I haven't been in a real fight since I was 15 and I'm now 63 yrs old. As a martial artist of 35 years, I greatly enjoy controlled fighting or what I learned as 'temple fighting' because it's the only 'non-malicious' measure and exchange of skills between martial artists available to most of us. Even MMA fighters, who engage in brutal fighting, often hug each other after their fight - I like that respect and regard for the opponent. I don't crave a scenario where I'd be in the position of having to injure someone or being injured in a real fight.


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## Jenna (Mar 27, 2017)

Ben S said:


> I don't crave a scenario where I'd be in the position of having to injure someone or being injured in a real fight.


Would either feel worse, injuring some one or injuring your self??

Also, can you specify what it is that makes you not crave that scenario? Is it a compassion for all humanity? Is it fear of consequences, physical or emotional? Do you know? 

Thank you


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## Ben S (Mar 27, 2017)

Actually, I would probably feel worse injuring someone else - I'm non-violent and compassionate by nature, though I like the 'spirit' of fighting in the martial arts sense - the expression of it - it's my form of dance I suppose. I wouldn't crave the scenario because someone would get hurt - just not my nature to want that.


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## Ben S (Mar 28, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> Unfortunately, growing up in bad neighborhoods and living pretty much below the poverty level may be the reasons why I have been in more fights than I can possibly count. The reason WHY I fought in those situations was pretty simple...._*to establish my place in the hierarchy of the streets*_. Plain and Simple. I fought to protect myself from the neighborhood bullies and (in some cases) to remind others where their place is compared to mine. It is my personal assumption that this is the number one reason kids, preteens, teens and young adults fight in the schoolyard and backyard.
> 
> I used to enjoy point competition as a teen and young adult in my early 20s because I was good at it, it was fun and I won way more times than I have lost. For me, personally, it was not so much the thrill of victory or even the thrill of combat. To me it was the feeling, I would even say elation, of accomplishment. Possibly somewhere in the back of my mind I may have also enjoyed the narcissistic belief that I proved that I was better than someone else; meaning the people I defeated in point competition.
> 
> ...



As someone who's been in both worlds, your post is very valuable to me and I appreciate the honesty. It seems that there is a common evolution in most martial arts practitioners (if and when they do not actually need to fight to defend life) away from hurting and malice, while retaining a love for the art or mechanics of fighting. It's as if the survival instinct is kept alive in most martial artists, but evolves into the 'art of fighting'. This enables us to work on fighting every day despite the fact that most of us may go years or our whole lives without actually needing to use it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> _*to establish my place in the hierarchy of the streets*_. Plain and Simple. I fought to protect myself from the neighborhood bullies ...


Sometime it's not just "yourself" but the whole neighborhood. I still remember that about one midnight, someone knocked on my window. One of my neighbor's young brother was beaten up and some justice would be required. I jointed in my neighbor group, didn't know whom and how many that I was going to fight against.

Of course I could turn down my neighbor's request. If I did, I would be considered as an outsider after that. Not only I would be looked down by my neighbor, next time when I need help, I won't get any.


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## Martial_Kumite (Mar 28, 2017)

See, I knew people who would constantly pull the " u wanna fight" card every chance they could get. They were mostly chickens and just trying to through their weight around. Every time someone would try to pull that card on me, I would calmly, ask simply ask "When and where?" Then, for some mysterious reason, they had somewhere they had to be or tried to talk out of it. 

That was the best part of those fights, to see what kind of people they really were. You can tell a lot about someone when blows are exchanged. It's why I random matches with fellow MA students.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Martial_Kumite said:


> I would calmly, ask simply ask "When and where?"


When I had my MA school, I had a lot of challengers walked into my school door. After I set up a time with them, 80% of the time, they won't show up. The funniest thing was those challengers liked to set up rules. I had rules set up by them such as:

- punching without kicking.
- striking without take down.
- push hand without wrestling.
- ...

One stranger even brought his girlfriend, knocked on my front door, requested a "push hand" match in my living room. After I told him that I don't do "push hand", but I don't mind to wrestle or spar with him, he said he had a bad knee and could not wrestle any more.


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## Psilent Knight (Mar 28, 2017)

Ben S said:


> As someone who's been in both worlds, your post is very valuable to me and I appreciate the honesty. It seems that there is a common evolution in most martial arts practitioners (if and when they do not actually need to fight to defend life) away from hurting and malice, while retaining a love for the art or mechanics of fighting. It's as if the survival instinct is kept alive in most martial artists, but evolves into the 'art of fighting'. This enables us to work on fighting every day despite the fact that most of us may go years or our whole lives without actually needing to use it.



This sounds about right to me. It's amazing how I now loathe violence when there was once upon a time when I thought nothing of it; just another day at the office.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime it's not just "yourself" but the whole neighborhood. I still remember that about one midnight, someone knocked on my window. One of my neighbor's young brother was beaten up and some justice would be required. I jointed in my neighbor group, didn't know whom and how many that I was going to fight against.
> 
> Of course I could turn down my neighbor's request. If I did, I would be considered as an outsider after that. Not only I would be looked down by my neighbor, next time when I need help, I won't get any.



Yeah, I almost forgot about this one. If you had a dedicated clique that you rolled with day in and day out then you knew about the unwritten rule which says that you are obligated to fight for any and everyone who belong in that clique even if the beef originally had nothing to do with you.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2017)

Psilent Knight said:


> Yeah, I almost forgot about this one. If you had a dedicated clique that you rolled with day in and day out then you knew about the unwritten rule which says that you are obligated to fight for any and everyone who belong in that clique even if the beef originally had nothing to do with you.


When my father was a student in the North East University in China, the students were divided into the "national party" and the "communist party". During the class time, everybody would sit in the classroom as normal students. Between classes, student would fight against each other depending on which party that he or she may belong too. My father told me that sometime when he had to fight his friend who belonged to the communist party, he would switch and fought another communist party member. In those kind of fight, there were no talk down, avoid, run, but just fight. I asked my father why did students fought like this, he told me, it was an order from the top of their political party. Both parties didn't want their party members to be friend of the opposite party members.


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## Ben S (Mar 29, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.



Jenna - Great topic - getting to the heart of it for all of us. I admit that martial arts is about much more than fighting for me - such as energy cultivation, moving meditation, and self-expression, but it wouldn't be martial arts without 'fighting spirit' and techniques that actually work in a fight. What do YOU like about fighting.


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## Jenna (Mar 29, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Jenna - Great topic - getting to the heart of it for all of us. I admit that martial arts is about much more than fighting for me - such as energy cultivation, moving meditation, and self-expression, but it wouldn't be martial arts without 'fighting spirit' and techniques that actually work in a fight. What do YOU like about fighting.


Ah I am happy to know it give you cause you to think  That is all to the good. 

Me I like to fight, yes. More I do it, more I like it, less I avoid it, more I act to precipitate it. Is a hobby, a thrill, sense of control of someone perhaps.


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## Buka (Mar 29, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Me I like to fight, yes. More I do it, more I like it, less I avoid it, more I act to precipitate it.



This, too, will change.


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## senseiblackbelt (Mar 30, 2017)

Dylan9d said:


> Maybe a bit offtopic and no weird intentions involved, BUT you are very pretty.......  just saying.
> 
> Ontopic, I don't like fighting



why would you even say that?


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## Jenna (Mar 30, 2017)

Buka said:


> This, too, will change.


You would explain for me how you can say this? Is a teaching of experience yes? I would be grateful thank you


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Would either feel worse, injuring some one or injuring your self??
> 
> Also, can you specify what it is that makes you not crave that scenario? Is it a compassion for all humanity? Is it fear of consequences, physical or emotional? Do you know?
> 
> Thank you


I'll say that for me, I think I'd feel worse about getting injured. If someone attacks me, my view is that they limited my choices. I'm not willing to just let them injure me, and they are apparently not willing to just not injure me, so I'll do what I have to. If they get injured, I don't think I'd lose much sleep. Would it bother me if I caused serious injury? Probably, but I really don't know for sure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Ben S said:


> Jenna - Great topic - getting to the heart of it for all of us. I admit that martial arts is about much more than fighting for me - such as energy cultivation, moving meditation, and self-expression, but it wouldn't be martial arts without 'fighting spirit' and techniques that actually work in a fight. What do YOU like about fighting.


I agree. I'm enjoying this topic. I like reading some well-conceived views that are distinctly different from my own. Good thread, @Jenna!


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## Jenna (Mar 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> and they are apparently not willing to just not injure me, so I'll do what I have to.


Exactly so.



gpseymour said:


> If they get injured, I don't think I'd lose much sleep. Would it bother me if I caused serious injury? Probably, but I really don't know for sure.


I had done that when I was a lot younger. Is feeling that encourage ambivalence both then and now.. like it was unnecessary for it to have happen at all.. and but entirely necessary for it to end in that manner. Is the way of things.. the flow of nature.. not every fight can or ought to be avoided.  Introspection, forgiveness, objectivity.. lot of that in the afterwards.. now I have rules.. to hurt is not the intention -though invariably can and does happen- to stifle the anger in some one.. that they would otherwise apportion out.. Is control..


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## FriedRice (Mar 30, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is different for every person I am sure.. Do you like fighting?  I am asked this question and find it difficult to explain to a person who does not routinely fight.. I do not mean training drills and technique. I mean fighting. Any fighting that is not training drills or technique, in any circumstance, why do you like it?
> 
> Also, have you ever been engaged in a fight out of necessity and got what might be called enjoyment, or a buzz from it? Just a question.
> 
> Thank you.




Adrenaline rush....release of dopamine. It's a weird yearning to legally hit   someone while getting hit back. Competition fighting is basically using all the tools that can lead to death, but stopping before it can happen. I bet a lot of fighters suffer from depression also, which can explain the strong desire for such dopamine release. And of course, concussions and head trauma usually also causes or increases depression.


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## Jenna (Mar 30, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Adrenaline rush....release of dopamine. It's a weird yearning to legally hit   someone while getting hit back. Competition fighting is basically using all the tools that can lead to death, but stopping before it can happen. I bet a lot of fighters suffer from depression also, which can explain the strong desire for such dopamine release. And of course, concussions and head trauma usually also causes or increases depression.


Is there an implication in what you say that fighting can be addictive?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 30, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is there an implication in what you say that fighting can be addictive?


Anything that causes dopamine release can be addictive. I don't think I've met anyone addicted to combat dopamine release, but it seems likely they exist.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is there an implication in what you say that fighting can be addictive?


I had trained a private student how to fight. This guy didn't want to learn any basic, didn't want to learn any form. He just wanted to learn how to fight. We met 4 times a week, 2 hours each session. When he came, we put on gloves and tried to knock each other down. Sometime I had to hit him on the same spot multiple times to stop his aggressiveness. During that 8 months, I felt my body pain all the time. After 8 months, our training session finished. My body suddenly didn't feel pain any more. Also my mental pressure (ready for the next class) was gone. It was a very strange feeling that was hard to describe.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 30, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Anything that causes dopamine release can be addictive. I don't think I've met anyone addicted to combat dopamine release, but it seems likely they exist.


This really depends on the amount of dopamine, and if it releases it quickly or not. For instance, pills that increase dopamine/norepinephrine, but do so slowly/dont react right away are not going to be addictive. Similarly, there are some pills where a slight dopamine increase is just a side effect, and those are not addictive either.
I would be combat is different since it has a fairly big reaction, and it is incredibly fast, although I also don't think I've met anyone addicted to fighting (plenty who enjoy it though).


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## FriedRice (Mar 30, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Is there an implication in what you say that fighting can be addictive?



Yes, as it releases dopamine. Especially for people who suffers from depressions. For some, it's shopping...others, drugs...fighters, it's probably the danger/competition.  The bad thing about fighting though is getting head injuries, which usually causes or increases the level of depression = worsens the cycle.


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## FriedRice (Mar 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had trained a private student how to fight. This guy didn't want to learn any basic, didn't want to learn any form. He just wanted to learn how to fight. We met 4 times a week, 2 hours each session. When he came, we put on gloves and tried to knock each other down. Sometime I had to hit him on the same spot multiple times to stop his aggressiveness. During that 8 months, I felt my body pain all the time. After 8 months, our training session finished. My body suddenly didn't feel pain any more. Also my mental pressure (ready for the next class) was gone. It was a very strange feeling that was hard to describe.



Was he much bigger and stronger than you and had lots skills and experience fighting in the streets, school yard, etc.? How was he able to hurt you? And holy crap, he paid for 8 months of this? Untrained people would get concussions up the wazoo on day 1 if we went full power and both of equal size. Then if we did the same on the 2nd day, that would be irresponsible to risk a secondary concussion that builds upon the first. You need like months of rest to heal from the 1st concussion. Getting out of bed would be difficult. People can die.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Was he much bigger and stronger than you and had lots skills and experience fighting in the streets, school yard, etc.? How was he able to hurt you? And holy crap, he paid for 8 months of this? Untrained people would get concussions up the wazoo on day 1 if we went full power and both of equal size. Then if we did the same on the 2nd day, that would be irresponsible to risk a secondary concussion that builds upon the first. You need like months of rest to heal from the 1st concussion. Getting out of bed would be difficult. People can die.


We used the Karate rubber gloves in our sparring.

He was about 220 lb size, 40 lb advantage over me. He was untrained, but he had quite a lot of street fight experience. He might try to knock me down with full force, but I tried not to hit on his head that much. The place that I tried to hit on him was most on the upper chest area just to stop him from coming too close. He was not afraid to get punched. Sometime I hit him but he still moved forward. I had to hit him on the same spot again to stop him.

After 8 months of training, one day he came back and said, "It works! It works!" He got into a bar fight. His opponent could not land even a single punch on his body. Finally his opponent sat down and didn't know what had just happened. A year later (1975), he died in a car accident.

This is why I have always believed that if your opponent wants to fight you, you can play "defense only" until your opponent are totally exhausted. The fight can be end with nobody get hurt (of course assume no weapon is involved).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> The bad thing about fighting though is getting head injuries, ...


This is why I had invented the "rhino guard".


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## FriedRice (Mar 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I had invented the "rhino guard".



Interesting, but I'm going to have to be a skeptic on it though.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 30, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Interesting, but I'm going to have to be a skeptic on it though.


You can always try it with your training partner and draw your own conclusion.


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## FriedRice (Mar 30, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You can always try it with your training partner and draw your own conclusion.



I think if it's hands only, then uppercuts to the solar plexus would land on the easier side. Hooks to the body. And then comes the feints. Not to mention that this restricts the hands together, slowing down the returns and counters significantly.

If there were kicks, then this would be very bad news.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 31, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> I think if it's hands only, then uppercuts to the solar plexus would land on the easier side. Hooks to the body. And then comes the feints. Not to mention that this restricts the hands together, slowing down the returns and counters significantly.
> 
> If there were kicks, then this would be very bad news.





FriedRice said:


> getting head injuries, ...


The "rhino guard" can only be used to "protect your head". If you don't get head injury, your chance to survive from a fight can be increased.

Your opponent has 2 hands. You also have 2 hands. Now you have combined 2 hands into 1 to enforce the structure of your rhino guard. When your opponent's hands are not punching at your head, his head will be exposed to your "rhino guard - big fist".






There are many advantage to use the "rhino guard".

1. Your hands are away from your own body but close to your opponent's head. This is what I will call, "To fight in your opponent's territory and not to fight in your own territory".
2. You don't give your opponent enough space to generate speed/power for his punch. You squeeze his space.
3. You can interrupt your opponent's punch during the initial state while the power is still weak and speed is still slow,
4. If you are a good wrestler, you can use it to "separate your opponent's arms away from his head" (since your opponent's punch can only come from both sides of your "rhino guard").
5. It can help you to obtain the "arm wrap head lock", or "double over hooks".
6. It can help you to change a striking game into a wrestling game ASAP.
7. ...


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## Jenna (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Anything that causes dopamine release can be addictive. I don't think I've met anyone addicted to combat dopamine release, but it seems likely they exist.


Dopamine is related to pleasure among other things that is correct to say?? Do you think it is possible dopamine to get released when fighting? and why might this be so if by our ethical, moral and societal standards, fighting is apparently quite the opposite to pleasurable? Thank you!


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## Jenna (Mar 31, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Adrenaline rush....release of dopamine. It's a weird yearning to legally hit   someone while getting hit back.


Can I ask you some thing else please? You use the word weird, can you explain for me in what way it is weird? thank you


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 31, 2017)

Usually the higher the risk, the more reward that you will get. When your opponent tries to knock you down and you are still standing, that kind of "reward feeling" can make you smile in your dreams for many night. You just can't get this kind of feeling through light contact sparring. Even money won't be able to buy you this kind of "excitement".


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## Jenna (Mar 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Usually the higher the risk, the more reward that you will get. When your opponent tries to knock you down and you are still standing, that kind of "reward feeling" can make you smile in your dreams for many night. You just can't get this kind of feeling through light contact sparring. Even money won't be able to buy you this kind of "excitement".


Risk yes, some thing about that is intuitively true.. is riskier out side than in training place correct? is it legitimate fighting out side then?? is morally unsanctionable you would say to do this for excitement?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Dopamine is related to pleasure among other things that is correct to say?? Do you think it is possible dopamine to get released when fighting? and why might this be so if by our ethical, moral and societal standards, fighting is apparently quite the opposite to pleasurable? Thank you!


Dopamine is part of the chemical dump that happens in the fight or flight response. My memory is failing me on this, but its primary function in this case may be to reduce felt pain. Someone with a better memory (or deeper education on it) can probably correct or expand on that. The dopamine release is probably why some people react pleasurably. And different people will release different combinations/amounts of the catecholamines (including dopamine, adrenaline, etc.). They will also respond to them differently, and will have different rates of re-uptake. I remember listening to some information on that not too long ago, perhaps in one of the Great Courses, and there's some evidence that both addictive people and depressive people have predictable dopamine-related differences from the general population.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Usually the higher the risk, the more reward that you will get. When your opponent tries to knock you down and you are still standing, that kind of "reward feeling" can make you smile in your dreams for many night. You just can't get this kind of feeling through light contact sparring. Even money won't be able to buy you this kind of "excitement".


I expect this is something similar to the "adrenaline junkies" who like dangerous sports. I've enjoyed dangerous sports (loved skiing and rock climbing), but apparently never got the rush those folks get. Maybe that's why I don't see the same enjoyment others do in heavy sparring and competition. I've never really been into individual competition in anything. For me, the joy of competition was always the team. I really wanted to win, but with a team.


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## FriedRice (Mar 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The "rhino guard" can only be used to "protect your head". If you don't get head injury, your chance to survive from a fight can be increased.
> 
> Your opponent has 2 hands. You also have 2 hands. Now you have combined 2 hands into 1 to enforce the structure of your rhino guard. When your opponent's hands are not punching at your head, his head will be exposed to your "rhino guard - big fist".
> 
> ...




This may fall into the category of "trickery" that may work vs. equally trained opponents once in a while/by surprise and therefore, should be used sparingly. Like the Superman punch or this one: 




I can also see this working for the grappler more and more so in tight, confined space (like an elevator). But if there's decent amount of space, I'm going to use a lot of footwork and also start kick  that lead leg.

It's a pretty cool technique. I'm all for learning new stuff to surprise the Purists.


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## FriedRice (Mar 31, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Can I ask you some thing else please? You use the word weird, can you explain for me in what way it is weird? thank you



Because in general, it is out of the norm to enjoy punching each other in the face (up to knocking them out) as a form of sport in current society.


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## FriedRice (Mar 31, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Risk yes, some thing about that is intuitively true.. is riskier out side than in training place correct? is it legitimate fighting out side then?? is morally unsanctionable you would say to do this for excitement?



If society allows it one day, I would be in favor of this. But right now...no...because you'll go to jail, get sued, spend lots of money on legal defense, probably lose, get a felony record, may go to prison, lose your career, probably won't be hired in a high paying career again, etc.


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## Jenna (Mar 31, 2017)

FriedRice said:


> Because in general, it is out of the norm to enjoy punching each other in the face (up to knocking them out) as a form of sport in current society.


would it be weird if it were a form of gaining experience of fighting?


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## FriedRice (Mar 31, 2017)

Jenna said:


> would it be weird if it were a form of gaining experience of fighting?



Yes and no. To a person who doesn't fight nor understand what it entails, you can probably say this to them and they'd buy it and not think that you're weird.

But to those who understands, especially fighters, they'd know that you're getting  a "weird" rush/high off of hitting people in the face (and from getting hit back in the face also).

Although gaining experience is also apart of all of this. Like you can gain experience as a Martial Artist by getting great at doing kata only, but that doesn't necessarily make someone a competent fighter or even a fighter at all. Fighting for sport is literally trying to kill someone with regulated strikes and/or submission, and stopping short of killing them once they get KO'ed or the Ref stops it. And in UFC 1-4, there was nothing that would cause disqualification. You literally could do anything.  This is definitely not normal, especially in today's society. You have to have a certain propensity for controlled violence in order to enjoy this as a sport.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Dopamine is part of the chemical dump that happens in the fight or flight response. My memory is failing me on this, but its primary function in this case may be to reduce felt pain. Someone with a better memory (or deeper education on it) can probably correct or expand on that. The dopamine release is probably why some people react pleasurably. And different people will release different combinations/amounts of the catecholamines (including dopamine, adrenaline, etc.). They will also respond to them differently, and will have different rates of re-uptake. I remember listening to some information on that not too long ago, perhaps in one of the Great Courses, and there's some evidence that both addictive people and depressive people have predictable dopamine-related differences from the general population.


I'm commenting now as a reminder to myself to leave an in depth response once I get off work. Unfortunately, I saw this right as my lunch break is ending.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 31, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Risk yes, some thing about that is intuitively true.. is riskier out side than in training place correct? is it legitimate fighting out side then?? is morally unsanctionable you would say to do this for excitement?


IMO, the risk that you will take in the street fight is "no fun". It's no fun if you lose. It's also no fun if you win - jail time, lawyer fee, medical expense to your opponent, ...

There are 3 major reason to train MA.

1. fighting.
2. health.
3. *fun*.

Of course you can add self-cultivation, inner peace, new world order, ... into it if you wish. The "fun" is a big part of it.

- You can have fun for what you can do on your opponent.
- You can also have fun for what your opponent can't do on you.

You can have fun through "sport".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 31, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For me, the joy of competition was always the team. I really wanted to win, but with a team.


I had brought my Shuai Chiao team to compete in Taiwan (1984) and China (1985). It takes a lot of effort to train a team.


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## FriedRice (Mar 31, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I had brought my Shuai Chiao team to compete in Taiwan (1984) and China (1985). It takes a lot of effort to train a team.




Dayum, check out the 1980's permed 'fro's....good times.


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## drop bear (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Dopamine is related to pleasure among other things that is correct to say?? Do you think it is possible dopamine to get released when fighting? and why might this be so if by our ethical, moral and societal standards, fighting is apparently quite the opposite to pleasurable? Thank you!



Our ethical standards are manufactured though. And we are basically gorillas. We are still set up to fight for girls and compete for rescourses.






There is a mental element where if you are winning a fight you are psychologically helped along and if you are loosing you are psycologically hindered. And that is all different sets of chemical release.


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## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Dopamine is related to pleasure among other things that is correct to say?? Do you think it is possible dopamine to get released when fighting? and why might this be so if by our ethical, moral and societal standards, fighting is apparently quite the opposite to pleasurable? Thank you!



Who knows. Probably more technical than it needs to be. Most be people are hard wired to fight, but that term fight means most won't go toe to toe. Probably more verbal, than actually striking physically. For me the ability to do harm is hard wired, because you don't  think about it, you just do it. Chemical reactions just don't exsist in my thoughts.


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## Jenna (Apr 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Our ethical standards are manufactured though. And we are basically gorillas. We are still set up to fight for girls and compete for rescourses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you.. so then you are not to blame if you find your self in a position where you are fighting -not sparring- fighting and enjoying it??


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## Jenna (Apr 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Who knows. Probably more technical than it needs to be. Most be people are hard wired to fight, but that term fight means most won't go toe to toe. Probably more verbal, than actually striking physically. For me the ability to do harm is hard wired, because you don't  think about it, you just do it. Chemical reactions just don't exsist in my thoughts.


Thank you.. can I ask please if we are hard wired to fight, would you say does that preclude our choice not to?


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## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you.. can I ask please if we are hard wired to fight, would you say does that preclude our choice not to?



Yes I would. Fight or Flight syndrome. Flight the mind looks for avenues of escape. To that end it is necessary. Fight means taking away the opportunity for the opponent to do harm. IE, tickle them, making sure that they realise that they have picked on the wrong person. Most will submit and say no worries mate. Determined to convey their manhood, will go and stupidly think about going toe to toe. Now this isn't chemical reactions, just pride.

They don't want to do it, in this sense, chemical reactions do play a part, but not in a aggressive manner, their brains say retreat, but pride overides this. It could be many environmental factors, the bird, or the false sensation from alcohol or drugs, or just the momentary high. Most will reteat within themselves, and then back down.

Some though that are hard wired, will think that the threat is minimal. As such will just look for the opportunity. There is no preclusion from choice, it is what it is. Fight or flight, it is hard wired.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you.. so then you are not to blame if you find your self in a position where you are fighting -not sparring- fighting and enjoying it??


Unlike other animals, we have an executive center in our brain, which allows us to consider long-term consequences. Using that ability early in a situation (often before the situation, to avoid it), is part of our ethical responsibility.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Yes I would. Fight or Flight syndrome. Flight the mind looks for avenues of escape. To that end it is necessary. Fight means taking away the opportunity for the opponent to do harm. IE, tickle them, making sure that they realise that they have picked on the wrong person. Most will submit and say no worries mate. Determined to convey their manhood, will go and stupidly think about going toe to toe. Now this isn't chemical reactions, just pride.
> 
> They don't want to do it, in this sense, chemical reactions do play a part, but not in a aggressive manner, their brains say retreat, but pride overides this. It could be many environmental factors, the bird, or the false sensation from alcohol or drugs, or just the momentary high. Most will reteat within themselves, and then back down.
> 
> Some though that are hard wired, will think that the threat is minimal. As such will just look for the opportunity. There is no preclusion from choice, it is what it is. Fight or flight, it is hard wired.


It's more than just fight-or-flight. That's the chemical response (mostly) from the amygdala, the "reptile brain", where our emotions are centered. The executive center (in the forebrain, the last part to develop as we grow), can override much of the amygdala's instruction. This is where we have the choice of whether to fight or not, even when the amygdala is dumping the fight chemicals.


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## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's more than just fight-or-flight. That's the chemical response (mostly) from the amygdala, the "reptile brain", where our emotions are centered. The executive center (in the forebrain, the last part to develop as we grow), can override much of the amygdala's instruction. This is where we have the choice of whether to fight or not, even when the amygdala is dumping the fight chemicals.



Sorry I have a reptile brain. Don't understand the choice bit too much, only in the sense that it is a particularly bad to pick a fight with me. Then again I am not quite right in the head, so perhaps my response region is just a little bit simplistic. I do see you're point though, if not for the fact I haven't gota clue what a "amygdala" is.


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## Jenna (Apr 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Yes I would. Fight or Flight syndrome. Flight the mind looks for avenues of escape. To that end it is necessary. Fight means taking away the opportunity for the opponent to do harm. IE, tickle them, making sure that they realise that they have picked on the wrong person. Most will submit and say no worries mate. Determined to convey their manhood, will go and stupidly think about going toe to toe. Now this isn't chemical reactions, just pride.
> 
> They don't want to do it, in this sense, chemical reactions do play a part, but not in a aggressive manner, their brains say retreat, but pride overides this. It could be many environmental factors, the bird, or the false sensation from alcohol or drugs, or just the momentary high. Most will reteat within themselves, and then back down.
> 
> Some though that are hard wired, will think that the threat is minimal. As such will just look for the opportunity. There is no preclusion from choice, it is what it is. Fight or flight, it is hard wired.


Thank you for your perspective.. do not know I am pushing my luck to ask another question.. still.. I can ask you some thing frank.. how much do you like to be violent? Also.. if you believed you would not be caught because you knew the person who have attack you would not make any thing of it.. like police etc.. would that change your view of how you would fight either way?? thank you


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## Jenna (Apr 1, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's more than just fight-or-flight. That's the chemical response (mostly) from the amygdala, the "reptile brain", where our emotions are centered. The executive center (in the forebrain, the last part to develop as we grow), can override much of the amygdala's instruction. This is where we have the choice of whether to fight or not, even when the amygdala is dumping the fight chemicals.


So the old brain say to fight.. or flee.. or freeze as often happen as part of autonomic response also.. and but then forebrain call this order into question with consequences and advisability of courses of action?? So then how can we know it is essential to fight for self-preservation -or that of beloved- when we are second guessing our automatic response?? hope this make sense.. thank you


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## Transk53 (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for your perspective.. do not know I am pushing my luck to ask another question.. still.. I can ask you some thing frank.. how much do you like to be violent? Also.. if you believed you would not be caught because you knew the person who have attack you would not make any thing of it.. like police etc.. would that change your view of how you would fight either way?? thank you



Jenna, you really know how to ask the akward stuff. Okay, viloence. Okay to me that will be strongly biased to my childhood. How much do I like to be violent, I don't.

Now here is the contradiction, I love the idea of being violent, because being beaten as a child, this is the only recorse. But no, morals have a influence on my stance to all things.

Making anything of an attack is pointless, it is what it is. Well that is part of how I see it.

The latter. No.


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## oaktree (Apr 1, 2017)

I do not enjoy violence to me hurting someone is one of the worse actions as humans we can do to each other. Understanding that an opponent is essentially us in that they to are a brother, son, perhaps a parent and have to a lesser or greater same motives in life of pursuit of happiness I can not in good conscious seek enjoyment of causing harm. I remember ny neighbor getting angry wanting to fight, I saw his kids watching, his wife, his mother to injure him and take pleasure would be me taking pleasure in making them worry and feel pain. Understanding that self defense and injury or taking of a life is a fate that if someone foolishly does try to do me harm that i may have to defend myself I pray as a priest for that poor unfortunate soul.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Sorry I have a reptile brain. Don't understand the choice bit too much, only in the sense that it is a particularly bad to pick a fight with me. Then again I am not quite right in the head, so perhaps my response region is just a little bit simplistic. I do see you're point though, if not for the fact I haven't gota clue what a "amygdala" is.


The amygdala is a small bit of your brain, shaped like an almond, that produces many of your emotions. It is the primary influence in the anger response, as well as most stress/danger responses.


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## drop bear (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you.. so then you are not to blame if you find your self in a position where you are fighting -not sparring- fighting and enjoying it??



Correct. You are responsible for your actions though.

I know plenty of good people who love a fight. Now they are not walking the streets like some sort of undiffused bomb.

I hated to fight and took it out on the guy that forced me to. 

Or I just fought because I was getting paid.

I mean the moral high ground is pretty fuzzy.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 1, 2017)

Jenna said:


> So the old brain say to fight.. or flee.. or freeze as often happen as part of autonomic response also.. and but then forebrain call this order into question with consequences and advisability of courses of action?? So then how can we know it is essential to fight for self-preservation -or that of beloved- when we are second guessing our automatic response?? hope this make sense.. thank you


The executive center is more focused on long-term consequences. In the case of self-preservation and preservation of those we love, it is likely to agree with the very reactionary and emotional reptile brain. The reptile brain wants to act (fight or flee) in response to the perceived danger. There's only a conflict if the executive center sees a negative outcome as likely. So, when someone gets "in my face" over some perceived slight, my reptile brain wants to engage with this perceived threat, and remove it. My executive center recognizes the threat isn't imminent, and understands the legal repercussions, the possibility of getting injured, etc.


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## Transk53 (Apr 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The amygdala is a small bit of your brain, shaped like an almond, that produces many of your emotions. It is the primary influence in the anger response, as well as most stress/danger responses.



Right. Going to ask Sifu today about that today. Interesting stuff and I thank you for bringing that up. Making me think about Wing Chun and what would be the likely response if a practioner saw the red mist, and used Wing Chun.

I think a lot of people would resort to some kind of primal response, irrespective of whether training is there or not. I mean I have had where "maybe I should have done that instead" moments on reflection. Mind though certain things in the context of job, do have lawful limitations, but emotional content seems to float between reason and actual action. 

 Can I ask though, to you stress and danger. Are they linked to the point that stress triggers a danger response. IE the full on " I am going to have to fight" Or would that be down to the person with training, apposed to the one with not. Sorry I am rambling a bit.


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## Transk53 (Apr 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Correct. You are responsible for your actions though.
> 
> I know plenty of good people who love a fight. Now they are not walking the streets like some sort of undiffused bomb.
> 
> ...



It is, but doesn't have to be that way on a personal level. Of course though, that is what controls it to a certain extent. I mean you ain't going to batter a computer geek who loves wrestling too much. That would just be so wrong


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## Jenna (Apr 2, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Jenna, you really know how to ask the akward stuff. Okay, viloence. Okay to me that will be strongly biased to my childhood. How much do I like to be violent, I don't.
> 
> Now here is the contradiction, I love the idea of being violent, because being beaten as a child, this is the only recorse. But no, morals have a influence on my stance to all things.
> 
> ...


Some time it is difficult or even impossible to be forthright over childhood circumstance.. some time people find liberty in being straight out.. whichever for you, I appreciate your comment, there can be no aspersion cast upon you for how you are now nor do I see contradiction just a person trying his best.. this is my view having perhaps shared some of that circumstance xo.. To make some thing of an attack is pointless you have said.. yes.. I cannot disagree with how I think you mean that.. Is black and white though or can there be mitigation? like what if some one who would seek to vent their anger physically and it is them that want to make some thing of it? like some one want to show me -or you- a lesson for not doing what they want.. do you think is ok then to make some thing of it??? thank you again


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## Jenna (Apr 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Correct. You are responsible for your actions though.
> 
> I know plenty of good people who love a fight. Now they are not walking the streets like some sort of undiffused bomb.


You mean they roam around looking for an opportunity to fight? If so, do you know what they do with that need?



drop bear said:


> I hated to fight and took it out on the guy that forced me to.
> 
> Or I just fought because I was getting paid.
> 
> I mean the moral high ground is pretty fuzzy.


Fuzzy moral high ground.. yes I think you are right.. can you say any more about how you mean this please? thank you


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## Jenna (Apr 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The executive center is more focused on long-term consequences. In the case of self-preservation and preservation of those we love, it is likely to agree with the very reactionary and emotional reptile brain. The reptile brain wants to act (fight or flee) in response to the perceived danger. There's only a conflict if the executive center sees a negative outcome as likely. So, when someone gets "in my face" over some perceived slight, my reptile brain wants to engage with this perceived threat, and remove it. My executive center recognizes the threat isn't imminent, and understands the legal repercussions, the possibility of getting injured, etc.


Thank you for helping me to understand that more clearly! and I want to ask you another question about this.. Like under what circumstances does the reptile or lower brain (if it is ok to call it that) overrule the executive or higher functions?? or does it not? will a fight only occur if the executive committee agree it is necessary?


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## drop bear (Apr 2, 2017)

Jenna said:


> You mean they roam around looking for an opportunity to fight? If so, do you know what they do with that need?
> 
> 
> Fuzzy moral high ground.. yes I think you are right.. can you say any more about how you mean this please? thank you



Not always. I know some spazzy guys who do but I am suggesting a person with decent morals doesn't look for fights but if the curcumstances require it they dont have any sort of aversion to fighting.

Lots of sports fighters do that so they have an outlet where they get to hit people. And they are still not unexploded bombs. Just normal people.

Fuzzy moral high ground? Because it is your job is hardly a good reason to beat a person up. Or some sort of deep seated paranoia that a fight will get them killed so they have to get in first. There are all sorts of moral justifications for fighting that are as ambiguous as because someone enjoys it.


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## Transk53 (Apr 2, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Some time it is difficult or even impossible to be forthright over childhood circumstance.. some time people find liberty in being straight out.. whichever for you, I appreciate your comment, there can be no aspersion cast upon you for how you are now nor do I see contradiction just a person trying his best.. this is my view having perhaps shared some of that circumstance xo.. To make some thing of an attack is pointless you have said.. yes.. I cannot disagree with how I think you mean that.. Is black and white though or can there be mitigation? like what if some one who would seek to vent their anger physically and it is them that want to make some thing of it? like some one want to show me -or you- a lesson for not doing what they want.. do you think is ok then to make some thing of it??? thank you again



Well maybe. Do I feel that everyone deserves a slap, maybe. Do I want to do that, no. When you are in a place experiencing viloence, doesn't mean you have to transmit that to others. That is one thing that my moral conscience will not allow. So no my childhood experiences are my own, at no point would I ever wish, or would I transmit that to another. 

Mitigation through an attack. Yes that does exsist. I do not like doing harm, but if someone affects harm, then I wiill respond accordingly. A kind of sliding scale that I have to adapt, or had to adapt over the years.

Do I think it is okay to make something of it, maybe not, but I have already sized you up. From that, the end result is you on the floor.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

Transk53 said:


> Right. Going to ask Sifu today about that today. Interesting stuff and I thank you for bringing that up. Making me think about Wing Chun and what would be the likely response if a practioner saw the red mist, and used Wing Chun.
> 
> I think a lot of people would resort to some kind of primal response, irrespective of whether training is there or not. I mean I have had where "maybe I should have done that instead" moments on reflection. Mind though certain things in the context of job, do have lawful limitations, but emotional content seems to float between reason and actual action.
> 
> Can I ask though, to you stress and danger. Are they linked to the point that stress triggers a danger response. IE the full on " I am going to have to fight" Or would that be down to the person with training, apposed to the one with not. Sorry I am rambling a bit.


What we, in modern society, see as "stress" is actually a misapplication of the danger response. Our bodies evolved to deal with physical threats. Psychological threats (stressors) don't fit with the model our brain is built to handle. That's why stress responses cause so much physical trouble. They evolved for short-term usage (deal with a threat then recover). Now, a pre-action state is activated on a routine basis by things like being late, having too many tasks, concern about losing a job, etc. Activating those chemical reactions that often allows them to harm the system.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 2, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Thank you for helping me to understand that more clearly! and I want to ask you another question about this.. Like under what circumstances does the reptile or lower brain (if it is ok to call it that) overrule the executive or higher functions?? or does it not? will a fight only occur if the executive committee agree it is necessary?


The easiest example of the amygdala overriding the executive center is rage. Think of anger as a continuum. At one end we have annoyance, and at the other we have rage. There's a point near the "rage" end, where a large dump of neurochemicals happens. Daniel Goleman refers to this as "emotional hijacking". These chemicals are released (or caused to be released) by the amygdala. Some of them actually shut down the functioning of the executive center. This is why when you get someone who is very angry, and you ask them to "calm down", they can't, and will often respond by being more angry. "Calm down" is a request for the executive center to take control, but it isn't functioning much at that point due to the chemicals. So, the amygdala responds, and it is in a threat-recognition state, so it responds to the request as a demand, and responds to demands as threats.

So, in a very real way, under the influence of high anger, we are not functioning with our whole brain. Thus, when really angry, people do things that ignore the long-term consequences (think of the extremes that happen in road rage).

It normally takes a long time to reverse this process, because it is a chemical process. Calming down from rage to a lesser anger takes a minimum of several minutes (absent something like fear for a loved one or shock to cause a different chemical dump). Removing all the anger-activated chemicals, to remove the threat-awareness reaction takes hours.


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