# thekuntawman is a racist tournament fighter



## thekuntawman (May 21, 2003)

you know i love competition and a good argument. what i dont like is lying and name calling, which is childish, especially for someone who calls himself a man first and a martial artist second.

now, if you say you do FILIPINO martial arts, you have to fight. when you avoid sparring ("fighting"), and you dont streetfight (i am not saying you should), you are not a "fighting artist" you are a "drilling artist". sparring with people you dont know does not have to be in a tournament, but i see most people will not do it on there own, unless they go to a tournament. the question i always hear is "how can i get people to fight with me?" well, everyone here knows the answer to that question. you will not find many people to do that in a seminar. the people who like to fight make themselfs known, and you will find many of them in a tournament. 

now, am i saying you cannot be a legitamate FMA teacher/expert unless you participated in a lot of sparring? yes i am. without your own FIGHTING experiences, as an expert you are no more than an expert on paper. like a mechanic who never works on cars.

now my question to you, PAUL. if you do not believe in sparring in tournaments, or sparring with people, what are you doing that makes your martial arts training street-oriented? this is a question, not an insult. i asked this question on this forum at least 5 times, and nobody has ever answered it.

oh, and about that guy cobra kai guy on karate kid. if we are talking if he is a good teacher, he is not. but does anybody here really believe daniel san was a good fighter than those kids from the other dojo?  please!  

TMS, too much seminar. whether you like it or not, the people who do the most fighting, no matter where it is, will have a better chance in a real fight. but the ones who spend all their time doing drills and seminars, will look more impressive doing drills and seminars.

now about me being a racist, you are right with that one. i dont like history pirates and culture pirates. when one culture dominate another one, and forced there will to another culture, espcially mine, i hate them. so what, go cry about that.

but about a white guy being the GM of modern arnis. i did not say that. go read my postings again. what i am talking about, is, somebody who spent 10 years with a few seminars a year with remy presas, is not equal to somebody who study with him full time for 10 years in the past. if you like it or not, the one who came before you, is your senior, your kuya in a FMA school. yeah, maybe you are close to him in the end and you learned the new development in modern arnis, but you spent less time with your teacher then the guy who trained with him full time. does that mean a white guy cant be a GM? no that is stupid. but if that white guy had 10 years of seminars, and filipino had 10 years of full time study, your kidding me if you think thats equal.

moderators, if you want you can lock this thread after my question is answered that about sparring. the only reason why i made a separate thread is that i dont want people to believe that ******** on the reasons" thread. you know, some of my best friends are white   and some of my students are white, and many of my students dont like tournament. i hate to think somebody might read those post without my answer back to them.


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## Kingston (May 22, 2003)

You forgot sexist and ignorant. :2xbird:


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## moromoro (May 22, 2003)

whay do you hate him??

because he likes sparring? 

Because he likes real fighting??

Because he has a love for the pilipino culture and martial arts?

Because he hates the way most FMartist are training in the U.S??

Because he hates the way most folks in the US are selling the FMA (making instructors and not training enough, and wanting more students).....


I WILL TELL YOU ALL SOMETHING THE FMA IS LARGER THAN MODERN ARNIS (YES THIS IS TRUE) AND THE VIEWS I BELIEVE IN AND HAVE STATED MANY TIMES IN DIFFERENT POST MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH MANY BELIEVE IT BUT WONT POST SOMETHING FOR FEAR BUT BELIEVE ME MANY FMA ARE THINKING THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

To paul.

why dont you answer the question? 
how do you know what you are doing is effective??


i can believe that people actually do all their training from seminars!!!!!!!!!!!!! I JUST CANT PLAIN BELIEVE IT.....................

HOW CAN YOU IMPROVE??????????


thanks

terry


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

Kuntawman:

I am actually in agreement with you in regards to not just becoming a "drill Jocky." I do believe in free-fighting. Many of the Modern Arnis "drills" are designed to turn into controlled semi-sparring situations, or "free-flowing." This was only because of the nature of "seminar training" where drills are simpler for the beginner to learn, before they learn the "flow." Those drills were all intended to bring people to the "flow," however, and to "free-fighting" to some degree. There are those who go to seminars (Modern Arnis, as well as other seminar FMA) who don't get this, and who become "drill jockies" and never take it beyond the drill. I would agree with you that these drill jockies need to take it a step further if they ever expect to be able to use their skills in combat.

In Balintawak, since it is one-on-one, there are no drills at all. There is no need; we just free fight.

So, I agree that one of the best ways to test each other it is to "play," or to basically set up some parameters, and go at it in a controlled fashion. Where I disagree with you is I don't believe that "tournament fighting" is a good representation of real fighting. Tournament fighting is not "play." When you start adding specified rules, padding, referees, and trophies, you turn "fighting" into a sport. People are not trying to see who the better fighter is in tournaments, they are trying to win within the rules of the tournament. Your stick fights, whether with real sticks and helmets and heavy gear or padded sticks with less gear, turn into games of "tag." This is not fighting. People do things in tournaments that they would never get away with in real fights, but the rules of the tournament allow them to do these things.

In "play", if your challanger turns his back to you, you can tap him and say "hey you just got destroyed." If he doesn't believe you, you just tap him harder the next time; he'll eventually understand. In a tournament where the rules are as such where there is no point for hitting in the back or back of the head, your challanger could do this all day long and get away with it. I've seen people win empty hand tournaments this way. So how is this comparitive to a real fight? There is no comparison.

So, you asked me how do I know something will work in combat? Frankly, you never truely know. Whether you spar, tournament fight, Full contact fight, drill, punch and kick the air, or what have you, you never know FOR SURE what will work in combat and what won't. I think of martial arts like I think of mathematics. Math is really all concepts done on paper that can be proven "in theory". But when you have to apply those concepts to real life, whether as an engineer, a scientest, or a market analyst, those formulas and theories that work well on paper may not work well for your situation, and you never truely know what works until you achieve your end result. In a less percise manner, this is the same with combat. Whether you spar or punch in the air, it is all theory until combat tested, and even then what works in one sitution may be totally useless in another. This is why we STUDY martial arts. If it was only about winning in combat, I'd just buy a machine gun and call it a day (until my opponent brought his bazooka). We are trying to improve our FIGHTING skill based on sound theories and practices, and we take what we learn in our decipline and we apply it to our everyday lives. This is the essence of any combat way; the essense isn't about "how many people we can beat up."

On a side note, how many "street fights" you were in doesn't necissarily make you a superior fighter either. This is similar to the fact that if you were to ask my significant other why she thinks I am a good lover, I can garuntee you that she isn't going to reply, "Because he has sure banged alot of other chicks."

So...if you only do drills and techniques in the air, I believe you are doing yourself a diservice. If all your training is directed towards tournament fighting, I also believe you are doing yourself a diservice. I think that "play" is the best way myself, but to only "play" would also be a diservice. In order for you to be a complete fighter, you have to have as much diversity in quality training as you can.

Kuntawman, because you specified that you don't have to "tournament fight," but that fighting and sparring outside of your own circle is important, I think that we are probably on the same side of the table regarding the issue. I just don't put as much "stock" in tournament fighting as you do, that's all. When you usually talk about the issue of fighting in the past, though, the emphasis seems to be on tournament fighting over any other alternative; it was to the point where you were basically saying that if eskrimadors don't enter "tournaments" then somehow their skill is worthless. Since the issue has been clarified, it is nice to know that we are more in agreement then not! 

PAUL

P.S. I will address the "racist" issue in a seperate post.


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

Kuntawman,

I'll start with saying that I didn't like being so harsh towards you, but that I felt that I didn't know how else to explain the way I felt regarding the issue without putting it so bluntly.

I think that when you bring issues to the table, especially when it is regarding "american" FMA teachers and schools, you tend to be culturally biased. I appreciate your honesty in your last post. You mentioned that you are a "racist," but not in the sense that you hate people of a different color then yourself, but more so that you hate it when people try to rewrite history, and "pirate" your culture. I can appreciate that. I don't like it when poeple try to exploit other cultures either. The U.S., as great of a country as it is, is hugely guilty of cultural "piracy," and this is one of my biggest critiques of the country that I live in.

I can understand your viewpoint, and your fustration. I cannot agree with you in bringing this fustration to the table when an issue is brought up regarding an "american" master of a FMA. I think that this fustration that you have with culture pirates, as justified as it may be, skews your vision and viewpoint when your trying to see an issue clearly.

A perfect example was with the Modern Arnis thread/issue. You made the good point that someone who trained daily with Remy Presas should know more then someone who only saw him at seminars twice a year. This is valid. I, however pointed out these key facts: 

1. there were many students who made it a point to see him once a month. There were also many students with whom Professor Presas stayed with (sometimes for months) and got one on one training from the man. I would argue that some of this training is at the very least equalled to the training someone would have gotten from Professor when he was in the Filipines.

2. In regards to the 8th degrees in Modern Arnis from Filipines, some of them hadn't trained with Professor Presas for 20-30 years. The Presas Children, I know for a fact, hadn't trained with Professor for at least 20 years. Perhaps they kept up their training somehow, so I do not fault any of his old students. However, Modern Arnis is a progressive art, meaning that Remy continued to build on his art until he passed away. So, the Presas children and the 8th degree's do not know the same modern arnis that I know. I do not know specifically what they know either. We could all learn from each other, and the Presas Children and 8th degrees should be respected, but that is besides the point. The point here is that there are many different "styles" of Modern Arnis that are going around, so it wouldn't make sense for Tim Hartman, or Dieter, or the MOTTS (for example) to seek out approval from the Presas children or the 8th degrees, or to ask these people to be the "new grand masters," or to be subserviant to these people, when they do a completely different "style" of Modern Arnis.

3. Like it or not, Remy Presas' closest friends and students during the last 20 years of his life were......(drum roll please) AMERICAN! Like it or not, this is true. So, seeing that AMERICANS were around during the prime and most recent progressions of Modern Arnis, why couldn't an American, or different group leaders consisting of mostly Americans carry the torch from Remy Presas? 


These are the three main points here, and to answer my question to #3, I think that you have trouble with that because of your issues with "cultural piracy." Because of your bias, I don't believe that you were ever able to fully admit in that thread that it is not only quite possible, but probable that certain "AMERICANS" have as much rights, if not more of the right, to carry on Modern Arnis then some of the Filipinos. 

The real deal is, though, that black, white, yellow, or red, this is a global thing now. We are all trying to carry the tradition of FMA, and of our individual arts. I am lucky, for I grew up very "cosmopolitan," where I have great diversity in my associates, and friends. So I do not have the racial or cultural biases that others might have; and because of this I am not afraid to discuss racial issues, or to call things as I see them. For myself and many others, I am not Filipino, but I never forget where my arts came from, and I embrace Filipino culture, and it is something that I do not want to see exploited. I too get fustrated when americans and Filipino's alike pirate, rewrite, and exploit Filipino culture. I would rather fight against this exploitation when it occurs, however, then fight over cultural hang-ups and biases.   

I appreciate you admitting that anyone could become a GM, regardless of race. I figured that you felt that way, but it hadn't exactly been evident in your other posts, so it was nice to hear you say it. 

I think in the future, we should fight against "people" who exploit and abuse FMA in general; whether in the U.S., Philippines, or elseware. This way all legitimate practitioners of FMA will be on your side when you post your arguements. It would be better to have it "legitimate VS. illigitimate" rather then "tournament fighters VS. non-tournament fighters" or "Americans VS. Filipina's", as it has been so far in your arguements.

We are really in agreement in a lot of issues, I think. I just think that a simple change in tactics will lead to progress, that's all.

:asian: 
PAUL

P.S. Wait a second! Are you trying to say that Danial San DIDN'T kick @$$!!!!???? I won't believe it...I watched him win 2 tounaments, and a REAL street fight in Okinawa, if you remember from Karate Kid II. They managed to get them all these fights on tape, luckily, so we can learn what real fighting is all about!. 

Next thing you know your going to try to tell me that Mr. Miyagi was some actor of some kind (like a Pat Morita or something) and that he didn't really know Karate. Sheesh!:rofl:


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## Liam_G (May 22, 2003)

I think one of the reasons Kuntawman has advocated tournament fighting (Kuntawman: please correct me if I'm wrong!!) is that he really thinks that you should fight people from different styles and backgrounds, with different skills.  I can spar with my fellow students, who all study the same things from the same teacher, and we're all friends.  I know everything they do (within reason: obviously my seniors in the style know more than me ...), and when they initiate an attack, I usually know what they're trying to do, and I know how to counter it.  Of course, they also know what counter I'm likely to try, and so forth.  And we're all friends really trying to help each other out, so even if we're serious about winning the encounter, we tend to hold back.  Now, if all I ever spar is my fellow Doce Pares students, I'm not really testing myself.  Tournaments are one way of testing myself against a wider range of opponents from different backgrounds.  Hey, even if I enter a Doce Pares-only tournament, I'll be fighting strangers who had different teachers than me, so things will be different and will challenge me in new ways.  This will help me as a fighter.

Now, if we go further than that, say I enter a multi-style tournament.  Now suddenly I'm fighting some Modern Arnis guys, some Bakbakan Kalis Illustrisimo guys (who fight for rank), some guy with no formal training, but who has been going to Dog Brothers camps and fighting full contact, and some of Guro Gatdula's students (who also fight for rank).  Suddenly, I'm in a whole new world.  For me personally, I bet that I get my butt handed to me pretty quickly, but I'm probably going to learn an amazing amount from that experience.

In an ideal world, this wouldn't have to be limited to tournaments.  We (as in us FMA folks) could visit each other's schools and all be ready and happy to spar and test ourselves.  We'd all learn and grow and become better and more versatile fighters.  But this just doesn't seem to happen.  So for many of us, the ONLY way to get this wide range of fighting experience is in tournaments.  That's why tournaments are advocated: not because they are just like a streetfight,  or the ultimate measure of your FMA skill, but because at least they make you get out of your comfort zone and be challenged.

Finally: guys, I'm very junior in the arts.  I don't mean to offend my seniors, whom I respect.   I just wanted to try to write down some of the things that Guro Gatdula's posts have made me think about.

Respectfully,

Liam


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

That's fine. If the only way some of you are able to fight are through tournaments, then it is good that you do these. I have done a few tournaments myself.

Please understand that I am not slamming on tournament fighters. I am just expressing 1. the limitation of tournament fighting, specifically that it is not the "ultimate" test of skill, and 2. my disagreement with the notion that you can't be an eskrimador without tournament fighting.

I can appreciate the value of competitive fighting. It's just in these 2 points that I disagreed with Kuntawman on. It would seem, though, that since his clarification, he can see my 2 points, and that we agree on the issue that eskrimadors should fight more rather then just being a drill jocky, at least we agree more so then not.


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## Kingston (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *whay do you hate him??*


* 

first off i dont 'hate' anyone




			because he likes sparring?
		
Click to expand...


No. I enjoy sparring 




			Because he likes real fighting??
		
Click to expand...


Perhaps we have a difference view of what "real fighting" is. 
No i dont hate him because he likes "real fighting".




			Because he has a love for the pilipino culture and martial arts?
		
Click to expand...


No. I think its great to have a passion for culture and martial arts. (but i wonder how 'love' can bread such hate)




			Because he hates the way most FMartist are training in the U.S??
		
Click to expand...


No, i have no connection to any type of FMA organization in the states. I live in Canada, and i dont even take any FMA's




			Because he hates the way most folks in the US are selling the FMA (making instructors and not training enough, and wanting more students).....
		
Click to expand...


No. I dont agree with comercialism in the martial arts. But i dont "hate" it.

All i was doing in my first posts was stating facts. Those facts are proven in thekuntawman's previous posts. 

The problem here is that 'he' hates. Not that I hate.*


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## Cruentus (May 22, 2003)

Systema rules!


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## KenpoDragon (May 22, 2003)

This is primarily for The Kuntawman and Moromoro, but I invite all to answer. Do you guys honestly believe that tournament sparring is real fighting??? As stated earlier by Paul, there are rules in tournaments. Street fighting is completely different, NO RULES!!!!  I agree with the fact that at some point in your training FMA or other that you should put your skills to the test, and tournament sparring is close to the real thing. Now just for the record I don't call myself a Guru, or expert, or master of the arts that I have studied over the years. I am not saying that my style is supreme and no other style can compare. When you guys say that if you don't tournament spar, that you are not a real FMA artist, that ticks me off. I have sparred with plenty of guys, but I don't go out and challenge them, looking for a fight. Ultimately ALL martial artists have their own specific things that they like about martial arts. It seems to me that you guys (Kuntawman & Moromoro) just like the fighting aspects of the art. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the guys that don't really have the fighters mentality??? Should they stop training, and just give it all up??? Just because you guys like to test your skills doesn't mean that EVERY FMA guy has to. I also agree with the fact that it is good to test your skills with people that you don't normally train with. The thing I don't understand is in ALL of my street fights I never once had an escrima stick in my hands, (I wish I had though, because I would have destroyed the guy a lot quicker.) Now I don't know if you guys walk around with your sticks in your hands all day looking for a fight, but I got better things to do. By the way I just wanted to say that over here in the good old U.S of A there are SEVERE consequences for "testing your skills" in street fights. Assault and Battery, Assault with a Deadly Weapon, so on and so on. I think you guys have some valid points, on some things, but you guys are taking the COMPLETELY wrong way about them. If you want people to listen to you then be courteous, not blatantly rude. It has already been stated that your actions on this forum are against many of the rules, I suggest that you guys tread lightly, in other words watch your step.

:asian:


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## Kingston (May 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> *Systema rules! *



lol i knew i forgot something:idea:


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## thekuntawman (May 23, 2003)

paul, we do agree on the subject of sparring and tournaments, but

1. i have never said tournament is the ultimate test of fighting ability. what i am saying is it is a necessary part of the martial arts,  and its the best place to find sparring partners.

2. tournaments is where you will find people with the best speed and timings and ability to think fast. you will also find the people with the best ability to take pain and deal with fear. people who dont fight (spar) against strangers are the ones who will be the most surprise in the street. at least a tournament fighter, if he is a point fighter or contact fighter, will have a closer idea of what works for him or not.

i will finish more later.


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## Dan Anderson (May 23, 2003)

Kuntawman,

Interesting title to this thread you started.  I don't see you as a racist.  You haven't said one word about honkies, n- (very negative racial epithet for blacks), spics, beaners, wops, jews, nips or chinks.  I see you as talking about FMA from a total Filipino cultural viewpoint and not just the technical viewpoint.

I have a hard time finding the fault with that.

I was raised up in Modern Arnis.  Modern Arnis was first promoted in the US as "The art within your art."  This was a very good marketing ploy to open up many dojos to Remy Presas' promulgation of his art.  The interesting thing is that he never taught the Filipino culture side of it.  In this manner, he almost taught (pardon me, guys) _American Modern Arnis._  There are a number of his students who have since researched Filipino culture to further understand it but RP never taught it broadly.  I know I was with him for more than 20 years and he never stressed it with me so _my_ Modern Arnis (and subsequently Modern Arnis 80) is _*very*_ American.  I make no claims otherwise.

Your two comments below are quite good.

Terry,
You wrote, _"I WILL TELL YOU ALL SOMETHING THE FMA IS LARGER THAN MODERN ARNIS (YES THIS IS TRUE) AND THE VIEWS I BELIEVE IN AND HAVE STATED MANY TIMES IN DIFFERENT POST MANY MANY MANY PEOPLE AGREE WITH MANY BELIEVE IT BUT WONT POST SOMETHING FOR FEAR BUT BELIEVE ME MANY FMA ARE THINKING THIS WAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"_

I agree. Modern Arnis is just one of the many FMA around and there will be as many different viewpoints as there are people.  Modern Arnis people just happen to post a lot on MartialTalk.  I hope they do post as there is actually nothing to fear.  I enjoy the different points of view, myself.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## moromoro (May 24, 2003)

hi guys 

i will try to keep my answer clean



> you guys say that if you don't tournament spar, that you are not a real FMA artist, that ticks me off.



i never said tournament spar, i said if you dont do full contact fighting with the sticks how do you know you are getting better? by doing the drills, dont think so.....



> It seems to me that you guys (Kuntawman & Moromoro) just like the fighting aspects of the art. That's all fine and dandy, but what about the guys that don't really have the fighters mentality??? Should they stop training, and just give it all up??? Just because you guys like to test your skills doesn't mean that EVERY FMA guy has to.



well if you have read my other post in the spiritual and religious forum you would know iam heavily involved with the spiritual aspects of the art, training in kulam also oracion. 

but iam sorry the prerequesite to be an eskrimador is fighting, this does not mean every guy has to do it. in the past not many people learnt eskrima because they got hurt even in families of 11 or 12 only 1 would take it on because they could take the pain............

this was almost survival of the fittest, you could weed out the weak and keep the dedicated. today in the land of money and marketing many instructors want more students and readily teach there art to many people regardless, people also dont get hurt as much we have more people doing eskrima, the standards are not as high as they should be we have new instructors with no fighting experience of any kind have classes of 50 - 40 or 30 they travel the world to teach more students......

this is all doing more harm than good to REAl eskrima and the FMA in genaral.......


thanks

terry


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## KenpoDragon (May 24, 2003)

Just for the record Moromoro, I don't call myself a Eskrimador or Kalista or Arnisador or anything else like that, I call myself a martial artist. I also don't teach Kali to most of my students for the same reasons that you stated, i.e not being able to take the pain. I am a contact teacher if you know what I mean. I like to hit and get hit in return. I think it improves your skill knowing that you can take a solid shot and keep going. I only have a couple of students who can give as good as they get, and don't mind the bruises. You have to understand though with this mentality of teaching, less and less people will learn the FMA. Eventually it will cease to exist. I still teach the hand drills, single stick, and double stick drills, as well as the knife drills and disarms.I do allow them to free flow once they hit a certain level. You don't have to destroy your students for them too learn anything. What does that prove??? The student should take it upon themselves to increase their knowledge as far as full contact goes. If that's what they want to do. If I taught full contact everyday than I wouldn't have any students by the next week. I have not seen your posts on the spiritual side of the FMA's but I would like to hear about it, if you care to share.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Dan Anderson (May 24, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi guys
> 
> 1)  i will try to keep my answer clean
> ...



Terry, 
Good post.  
1.  You did and I respect that.
2.  Excellent.
3.  As an instructor in the US, I have a different viewpoint on this.  When I first began instructinig in 1969, it was in the mode of the survival of the fittest.  I lost many students and I thought, "Well, they couldn't take it."  Then I began to look a the needs of the student rather than my own ego.  Before, only the strong survived.  Here's the funny thing - usually the strong _don't need it!_  It's the non-fighters and the weaker ones who need martial arts.  So I have geared my teaching to build them up on a gradient scale so that they become strong.  I suppose someone could say this is a good marketing ploy but for me, it is a reality.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## dearnis.com (May 24, 2003)

Survival of the fittest..great.  How many of the old-school people here have permanent injuries that will plauge them the rest of their lives?  
One of the things I stress with my students is that they fight.  Another thing that I stress is that they not be injured stupidly to feed my ego or my ideas.  
The trick is balancing the two goals.


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## Cthulhu (May 24, 2003)

Our club spars (rattan sticks, helmets, light or heavy hand protection).  However, as of yet, it hasn't been made a requirement, and not everybody joins in.  It's pretty much 'no holds barred', but we respect each other enough to not go out and main the other guy.  Grappling is allowed, as are all strikes, though common sense dictates that thrusts to the face are not completed.

Once, while feeling a little crazy, we sparred with aluminum training knives with only light gloves for protection.  I don't recommend that for everyone.  Probably not one of our brightest moments, but a real valuable lesson at the time.

Like I said, not everybody spars, but that doesn't diminish my respect for those in our group who don't join in.  I feel that they may be missing out on some important training, but I'll still respect their abilities in the class.

Simply put, in modern, civilized times, many people can't afford to be sidelined from work due to injuries incurred while sparring.  Most of us have to earn our living, and that's more important than smacking some other guy with rattan.

But not as much fun.

Cthulhu


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## dearnis.com (May 24, 2003)

But that is just it Cthulhu.... you are still "sparring."  You are still pulling shots, using protective gear, working with your partners.  In short you are trying to get the maximum growth experience with minimum injuries.  
And when I say injuries I am not talking about bumps, bruises, and nicks; I am talking about having to take your training partner to the ER.
(Note to readers...I am agreeing with Cthulhu, not attacking him).
Chad


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## Cthulhu (May 24, 2003)

Exactly.

To fight hard enough that you receive a serious injury on a regular basis is just plain stupid.

To me, it'd be akin to police shooting at each other with live ammo to develop their firearms skills.

Cthulhu


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## moromoro (May 25, 2003)

hi dan

yes it is very important to teach those who are in need of self protection, this is probably where many have seen arnis / eskrima evolve in the aspect of self defence. But there are still some of us who like to train for pure improvement of our fighting skill although we are getting rare nowadays.

cheers

terry


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## modarnis (May 25, 2003)

Chad,

When did you become Mr. Safety?  I recall at least one ER visit with a side visit to the orthopedist too.


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## dearnis.com (May 25, 2003)

Yes indeed.  And part of teaching is helping your students to gain the same knowledge without enduring the pain and lasting injuries of your mistakes.
You know what both my hands look like.  We hadn't started training togther yet when I had to have a knee rebuilt.  You get to hear me gripe about how great I feel when the weather changes....
In other words do as I say, not as I do.


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## arnisador (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *As an instructor in the US, I have a different viewpoint on this.  When I first began instructinig in 1969, it was in the mode of the survival of the fittest.  I lost many students and I thought, "Well, they couldn't take it."  Then I began to look a the needs of the student rather than my own ego.  Before, only the strong survived.  Here's the funny thing - usually the strong don't need it!  It's the non-fighters and the weaker ones who need martial arts.  So I have geared my teaching to build them up on a gradient scale so that they become strong.  I suppose someone could say this is a good marketing ploy but for me, it is a reality.*



This is great stuff. You should write a book!


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## Dan Anderson (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *This is great stuff. You should write a book! *



Hmmm...
Now there's a thought.

Dan


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

*MartialTalk Policy updates and changes:*

In the past few weeks several things have happened on this board that have caused concerns among both the staff and our members. These concerns cover a wide range of things. This is our attempt to address them.

First, a point of history.

MartialTalk.com was originally setup in August of 2001 to serve as a discussion forum for a regional web portal. It was never in my wildest dreams that it would be as popular as it is, and go truly world wide. In fact, it has long since outgrown and absorbed its parent site.

MartialTalk is for the friendly discussion of martial arts. The key here is this exact phase. My mental image of MartialTalk is a big living room, everyone relaxing with a cool beverage, chatting about their arts, swapping stories, news, techniques and info.

It is not a place to puff your chest, flex your muscles, get on the soapbox and rabble rouse. Nor is it the place to expose your dirty laundry, spread rumors and lies, stab in the back, and run smear campaigns.

It is not the place for egos, attitudes and agendas. 

We have seen the following problems over the recent few weeks flare up greatly. It is our growing concern that left unchecked, these issues will seriously damage, possibly destroy all the hard work we have all put into this site.


*1: Off Topic posts, and major thread drift.*
We have specific forums for specific areas. Please, use them. As our post count climbs higher, it is harder and harder for our staff to keep up with policing everything. We need your active- help. Please post on topic to each thread. If it starts to drift, help steer it back on track by a: -politely- bringing up the original topic and b: starting a new thread for the tangent.


*2: Fraud Busting.*
Every art has its frauds, fakers, and plain misguided folks. Some of them are obvious, some are not. The purpose of MartialTalk is not- to be the place thats the master list of who is legit and who is not. We have -one- forum target at the Bad Budo idea. If you have specific information on such things, post it there. The constant jumping from forum to forum and thread to thread of this desire by several well meaning folks to cleanse the arts and others who constantly feel the need to defend from attacks that often times arent even there is causing us to lock down an excessive number of threads. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Effective immediately, fraud busting outside of the realm of the Bad Budo forum will result in administrative actions against those involved when it disrupts the smooth operation of this forum. If you have concerns about someones rank/status it is to be handled via PM or email. You may post the results of that research in the Bad Budo forum if warranted. Educated martial artists will see the fraud for what he/she is and should just ignore them. This board was set up for friendly discussion of martial arts, not as a soapbox for people's personal crusades.

If you have questions, concerns, etc about someone or their 'qualifications', post it in the 'Bad Budo' forum and address it there -within our guidelines-. Interrogator type posts will not be tolerated any further. Post your questions, and give the others time to answer. The non-responsivness of an individual should be enough. 


*3: Lack of respect or tolerance for differing opinions.*
Frankly, we are tired of the arguments about gender, race, nationality, etc. We are tired of those supposedly educated, experienced, trained martial artists, who tend to regress to school yard bully mentalities and tactics.

Effective immediately, we will begin removing those members who disrupt the smooth operation of this forum. If you cannot follow our rules, if you cannot leave your attitude at the door, we do not want you here. 

There is a difference between a debate and an argument. We welcome debate, as long as it is within our posted guidelines. Take your argument and flames elsewhere. 

The harassment of members, the hiding behind the youre not an XXX so you wouldnt understand, the you master sucks, etc. stuff will stop. Now. I dont care if he thinks hes a Sith-Lord and you know he is nuts. It will cease, immediately.


*4: Adult Content / profanity*
Recently, many posts have skirted the line on mature content. Let me be very specific. If its of a sexual nature it is probably too far. If you cant say it with out cursing like a truck driver, it is probably too far. If you have to reedit your post as its got lots of *** in it, its too far, and if you change all the *** stuff so that your words mostly show up, you will be booted. Circumventing the filters is a suspendable offense, and will be more strongly enforced in the future. We have at least a 5-10% membership under the age of 14. 


*5: The General forum is not the everything goes here forum.*
If it does not involve martial arts, it goes in the locker room, unless it is a joke, in which case it goes in the humor forum. If you need help, post it in the support forum, not buried 50 posts deep in a thread wondering why we don't reply.



We are working to find ways to resolve the issues that have been brought to our attention. This will take time, and it will require the assistance of our members. 1500 members, 10 mods. Theres a lot more members than staff.


This forum and its features is here for your use and enjoyment. It is up to you on how you behave here. You can treat it as a prized resource, or a toilet. Those who do the latter will rapidly be removed.


My staff and I are your hosts. You are all our guests. We expect you to behave as such. We will remove at our discretion any and all those who we feel are not behaving by our rules. This will be done regardless of rank, title, previous contribution or political alignment. If you cannot follow our rules, the door is there. Dont let it hit you in the *** on your way out. We will honor ALL- remove my account requests immediately from this point on. No saves, no pauses. If you are suspended and whine, you will be banned. It is fair to ask why, but once told, take it like a grown up.

Before someone say this is singling out anyone in particular, it is not.


Any questions?


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## thekuntawman (May 26, 2003)

those are good rules and sounds fair. but i dont know about the "fraud busting" part. i think it should be okay for us to talk about certain people who are misrepresenting the art. 

i will post a separate thread about this. but what about people who dont have access to informations finding about what is real and what isnt real in the martial arts? shouldnt they be able to go to a forum like this to ask people? one example is something like the ninja fraud person, who i wont mention his name, who wrote books and pretends to be japanese. shouldnt a student of his, who thinks there is somthing fishy about him, be able to come here and find out his money is being taken?

all the other rules sound very good and will keep this forum professional. plus it will be a good place for kids who study the art to see how adults in the martial arts act, and learn how to act.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by thekuntawman _
> *those are good rules and sounds fair. but i dont know about the "fraud busting" part. i think it should be okay for us to talk about certain people who are misrepresenting the art.
> 
> i will post a separate thread about this. but what about people who dont have access to informations finding about what is real and what isnt real in the martial arts? shouldnt they be able to go to a forum like this to ask people? one example is something like the ninja fraud person, who i wont mention his name, who wrote books and pretends to be japanese. shouldnt a student of his, who thinks there is somthing fishy about him, be able to come here and find out his money is being taken?
> ...



We didn't say you couldn't ask questions.  Our concern is when it starts to disrupt things.  Using the psudo-ninja as an example, he is welcome here, as long as he folows our rules.  I realize many of our members would wish to confront him and 'prove he is a fake'.  That is fine, however it must be done in a way that doesn't turn every thread the person is involved in into a search for legitimacy.  That way only causes good threads to turn ugly and get locked, which in turn starts turning people off to the forum.

Eventually, we will endup booting someone, and it may not always be the 'fraud'.


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## Dan Anderson (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by moromoro _
> *hi dan
> 
> yes it is very important to teach those who are in need of self protection, this is probably where many have seen arnis / eskrima evolve in the aspect of self defence. But there are still some of us who like to train for pure improvement of our fighting skill although we are getting rare nowadays.
> ...



Yep,
The fighters are getting rare these days but there are more of them than you think.
Dan


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## arnisador (Jun 9, 2003)

I have moved the more recent discussion here.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Rocky (Jun 9, 2003)

Not going to comment hear on the racist or cultural thing. I can say that tournament fighting is not really going to make you a good fighter, but it does help in timing endurance and what not. If you wanna get you skills up, I suggest you try some of our play. Fencing mask, unpadded sticks no chest protection, no cup, very light kneepads, and anything goes!! I will be hosting in the fall our "Almost yearly" Motor City Massacre in Detroit. We've been fighting like this since 1984. I use to beg Modern Arnis guys to come and play with us, but Remy more or less told them not to entertain me, oh well their loss. I watched Erwin Ballarta and Tom Bisio when I was a kid go at it in this fashion and I was hooked. Over the years we took it a little farther. Then there is always the Dog Brothers, who I really don't think took it any farther as far as content, but they definnately are more hard core in the fact that they fight a whole lot more than we did. I am sure Crafty Dog or Top Dog would be glad to throw a few whacks your way.

Rocky


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## Black Grass (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rocky _
> *...I will be hosting in the fall our "Almost yearly" Motor City Massacre in Detroit. ...
> 
> Rocky *



Is this by invitation only or a open event. If its open please keep this forum up to date. I for one as a former Windsor boy would love to participate . Hopefully you will get some Modern Arnis guys this time.

regards,

Vince
aka Black Grass


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## Rocky (Jun 10, 2003)

If we can do it a few years ago we were arrested for fighting in a public park. But yes it is open, know cost, just a day of fun, and maybe roast a few hotdogs and have a few cold refreshment when were done, there is no trophies or anything like that, just have fun try out things you maybe working on. And try not to get hurt, or pissed off


Rocky


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## Datu Tim Hartman (Jun 10, 2003)

Beer? If so count me in!


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