# WC/WT/VT and Pekiti Tersia



## wckf92 (Feb 2, 2016)

This line of comments and questioning recently came up on another thread that was beginning to show signs of 'drifting'...   So, figured I'd start another one. 
Some members here train other arts/systems besides 'chun. 

So, let's discuss what Danny and LFG/Guy / Geezer are talking about. 

Any discussion on these two arts? Similarities? Usefulness against or with a blade? etc?


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2016)

If you know the Pekiti "passing drill".....do this using both arms at the same time and you are essentially doing the Gan/Jum motion side to side! 

Couldn't find a great example of what I'm talking about on youtube, but this is close:





 
Similarly, Marc Denny of Dog Brother's fame did a knife defense video and unveiled a super secret technique he calls "the dog catcher." If you watch the video, this is just a Wing Chun Gan/Jum!   He based this on the passing drill from Pekiti by just adding the other arm.


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2016)

One thing about a lot of FMA drills... they have more steps and seem to _chase hands_ as compared to my WC/VT. Some of this may be due to range, and also to the fact that the nearest limb is a _target_ and not just an obstruction when you are holding a blade.

Regardless, the FMA I'm pursuing now is more direct, perhaps less like WC in appearance, but perhaps more like it in the way it attacks center.

And for what it's worth, if somebody really wants to stick or cut you, I have little confidence in palisut or passing drills. It's too easy to cut the hand that tries to make the pass. WCers -- think _tut-sau (freeing-hand)._


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2016)

[One thing about a lot of FMA drills... they have more steps and seem to _chase hands_ as compared to my WC/VT. Some of this may be due to range, and also to the fact that the nearest limb is a _target_ and not just an obstruction when you are holding a blade.

---This is true.  I agree that the reason, at least for the older FMAs, is that they are so weapon-centric that it just makes sense  that everything is structured around controlling the opponent's weapon.  I think some of the more recent "modernized" FMAs put more emphasis on countering directly.  Hence, with an eye towards efficiency, some of the "modernized" FMAs tend to have more overlap with Wing Chun.


And for what it's worth, if somebody really wants to stick or cut you, I have little confidence in palisut or passing drills. It's too easy to cut the hand that tries to make the pass.

---True again!  Against someone that is actually good with a knife you are in deep Shiza no matter what you do if you don't have a weapon yourself!  Fortunately the typical street thug is not a trained knife-fighter!


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## Danny T (Feb 2, 2016)

In Pekiti the Knife Tapping, Passing, Locking, and Scissoring drills are just that Drills.
Drills are not fighting. They are use to develop attributes and responses.
The Knife Tapping & Passing drills are a cohesion between techniques when linked with strikes, takedowns, locks, evasion and escapes. The practitioner learns to engage, redirect, and pass the attack and so may appear it is about passing. Once one knows and understands intercepting and passing they learn to attack to stun or disable the attacker while intercepting (engaging) redirecting, and passing. What allows the pass is the stunning or disabling attack. We don’t pass for the sake of passing.
The other drills; locking & scissoring are what to do with the weapon arm ‘after’ stunning the attacker or when the weapon arm is engage prior to attacking the core.
As Tuhon McGrath is constantly stressing as to what makes the passing and locking work is “Knock the Dude Out”!


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## guy b. (Feb 2, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> This line of comments and questioning recently came up on another thread that was beginning to show signs of 'drifting'...   So, figured I'd start another one.
> Some members here train other arts/systems besides 'chun.
> 
> So, let's discuss what Danny and LFG/Guy / Geezer are talking about.
> ...



Personally I would feel much more confident grappling against a knife than using VT unarmed. I would want to stop the guy and the knife moving as quickly as I could and break the arm badly as soon as I could. In my experience this kind of jiu jitsu approach works quite well against armed assailants (not knives) because they put everything into the weapon and tend to neglect protecting the arm and balance. Risk is in entering and getting the arm, but if you are single minded can be done. I think trying to keep a knife off you while hitting to ko is incredibly risky.

If I had knife/knives of my own then of course I would be using BJD strategies because that is the only blade idea I know.


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## dudewingchun (Feb 2, 2016)

I dont think with any amount of training I would be able to defend myself properly against knife attacks. A maniac is just going to stab and slash all over the place in a spaz of directions , not keen on my forearms getting sliced to pieces or someone might have been scoping you out then just stab you without  you realising until its in and out and your bleeding. Parkour is prob the best knife defence... just gtfo of there.


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## Danny T (Feb 2, 2016)

If it comes to a bladed attack it will most likely be sudden and likely extremely violent. Get Away, 'if' possible. ESCAPE. Immediately.
If you are stabbed or slashed and you can ESCAPE Do it.
IF you are in a position that you have to stay or have to fight until you can get away. Evade and strike with as much aggression you can muster and create distance, get something between you and the attacker. Keep moving, changing your angles. If you cannot get away after striking, then immediately work for control of the weapon arm.  Don't get into a sparring match or a duel. Footwork, aggressive striking, and weapon arm control. Do not get into a ground grappling match if possible. There are numerous wc positions and controls that can work well but do so only if that is your only option.


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## guy b. (Feb 2, 2016)

Danny T said:


> If you cannot get away after striking, then immediately work for control of the weapon arm.  Don't get into a sparring match or a duel. Footwork, aggressive striking, and weapon arm control. Do not get into a ground grappling match if possible. There are numerous wc positions and controls that can work well but do so only if that is your only option.



Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.


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## Danny T (Feb 2, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.


Key word 'If'. And I agreed.
How many grapplers train grappling against a knife attack. Go to most any grappling class and drop a training knife on the ground and tell them use on their opponent. It is amazing how quickly those grappling skills go away and how badly the person gets slashed and stabbed.
Can it be good yes it can. But it has to be trained for it.


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Much easier to control the weapon arm on the ground if you train that way. Everyone knows some way of moving standing up, most have no clue how to move on the ground. To me standing grappling a weapon arm is still quite a roll of the dice vs doing it on the ground.



I see your point (and have seen similar approaches in Dog Brothers videos) but, assuming you are attacked standing up, _how do you get him to the ground_ unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?

My first instinct is run to away, or if I can't, then to grab something as an improvised weapon, especially something that gives me a distance advantage like a pool cue or broom handle, or something that will shield me like a briefcase, jacket, or better yet a chair or stool. You can do a lot with a chair or stool. Maybe that's why circus "lion tamers" used them. A whip would be nice too!  Don't find too many laying around though....


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## guy b. (Feb 2, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Key word 'If'. And I agreed.
> How many grapplers train grappling against a knife attack. Go to most any grappling class and drop a training knife on the ground and tell them use on their opponent. It is amazing how quickly those grappling skills go away and how badly the person gets slashed and stabbed.
> Can it be good yes it can. But it has to be trained for it.



You are telling grapplers to use a knife against grapplers. Of course the one with the knife wins.

Go to any knife arts training venue with an electric cattle prod and see much worse. Very easy to pull off complex blocking trapping and striking movements when fear is absent. Not so easy when you fear being electrocuted badly and shitting yourself in front of the class.


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## guy b. (Feb 2, 2016)

geezer said:


> I see your point (and have seen similar approaches in Dog Brothers videos) but, assuming you are attacked standing up, _how do you get him to the ground_ unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?
> 
> My first instinct is run to away, or if I can't, then to grab something as an improvised weapon, especially something that gives me a distance advantage like a pool cue or broom handle, or something that will shield me like a briefcase, jacket, or better yet a chair or stool. You can do a lot with a chair or stool. Maybe that's why circus "lion tamers" used them. A whip would be nice too!  Don't find too many laying around though....



Yes run. Yes grab something. 

I think Danny wanted to focus on the eventuality where you are cornered and have to fight a person with a knife using only your bare hands.


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## guy b. (Feb 2, 2016)

geezer said:


> assuming you are attacked standing up, _how do you get him to the ground_ unless you have some degree of control of the weapon first?



Grab cloth first and work grips to prevent them stabbing you, then trip them in a safe way that allows you to gain top position while maintaining arm control. Then break their arm; they will drop the knife anyway but you might as well hurt them into the bargain. A naked knife wielding assailant is the stuff of nightmares.


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Grab cloth first...



Cloth? Clothes? I'm a little confused._ Do you mean sleeves?_ Sounds like a seasonal tactic at best. Here in Arizona, most people wear light, short-sleeved T-shirts or polo shirts pretty much year round. Maybe a light jacket in the morning on cold December or January days, or businessmen and lawyers inside their air-conditioned offices.


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## KPM (Feb 2, 2016)

Grabbing a sleeve rather than the arm itself is sure way to get cut or stabbed!  Trying to trip or drag someone to the ground is a good way to land on the point of the knife.  Rolling around on the ground against someone with a knife in hand is a bad idea.  Better to stay on your feet so you can create distance and RUN at the first opportunity!  Or put an obstacle between you and the guy with a knife.


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## geezer (Feb 2, 2016)

KPM said:


> Grabbing a sleeve rather than the arm itself is sure way to get cut or stabbed!  Trying to trip or drag someone to the ground is a good way to land on the point of the knife.  Rolling around on the ground against someone with a knife in hand is a bad idea.  Better to stay on your feet so you can create distance and RUN at the first opportunity!  Or put an obstacle between you and the guy with a knife.



Well, if you can't run, ...maybe you have to protect someone else? ...or whatever, ...you _have_ to get control of the knife, or the knife wielding arm, and momentarily stop the lethal damage it can cause. _That _is step one. _Then_ other possibilities emerge.

The problem I have with most knife demos I've seen is that they underestimate how insanely hard step one is to accomplish. They gloss over it almost as if it were a foregone conclusion, and then go on to dazzle and distract with steps two, three, four, and beyond.

Here's a pretty typical example. I'm not slamming this guy. I just don't think it's that easy to grab a and hold a knife wielded by a committed attacker. And if you can't do that, what use is all the rest?






BTW this skeptical attitude has probably cost me a few students over the years. But at least the few I do have won't do something stupid _that they learned from me!_


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## Blindside (Feb 2, 2016)

The knife tapping/passing drill is just a drill, designed to train a particular motion.  By itself it isn't a solution to the issue.  I really like Hertao's explanation of the drill here and jibs with how I was taught.





And for shits and giggles, my training group "dying" frequently and often trying to pressure test some of this stuff.


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## Danny T (Feb 2, 2016)

Wow, Hertao (David Erath) was one of my students in Wing Chun and Pekiti. Moved to Austria back around 2006. Very intellectual and pressure tests all of his material. Nice find Blindside.


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## Blindside (Feb 2, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Wow, Hertao (David Erath) was one of my students in Wing Chun and Pekiti. Moved to Austria back around 2006. Very intellectual and pressure tests all of his material. Nice find Blindside.



I actually always wondered if you guys were  linked, there can't be that many WC/PTK/other stuff guys in Louisiana.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2016)

Blindside said:


> I actually always wondered if you guys were  linked, there can't be that many WC/PTK/other stuff guys in Louisiana.


You would be correct in that. 
There is another high level PTK person in La.Guro Scott Faulk. Scott has some good wc, jkd (Larry Hartsell), and was an amazing TKD practitioner until he dedicated his training solely to Pekiti back around the mid 90's. He is an engineer in the petrochemical industry and only has only taught a few people just to have someone to train with.


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

geezer said:


> Cloth? Clothes? I'm a little confused._ Do you mean sleeves?_ Sounds like a seasonal tactic at best. Here in Arizona, most people wear light, short-sleeved T-shirts or polo shirts pretty much year round. Maybe a light jacket in the morning on cold December or January days, or businessmen and lawyers inside their air-conditioned offices.



Well then Arizona sounds like a bad place to be attacked with a knife

To be honest I think these kind of hypothetical situations are in clutching at straws territory a lot of the time anyway.

From my limited experience of fighting armed people, which has never included knives, coupled with my long experience of grappling, it is very very much easier to gain control of a struggling and flailing or wildly attacking person using their clothes, than not. Clothes do not just mean sleeves but of course sleeves very much better than no sleeves.

Once clothing grips are established it is pretty easy to spoil striking of any kind using the grips and to move the person in a way that is beneficial quite safely. Knowledge of cloth gripping and control is very low among the general population and I would assume among potential violent attackers.

(edit: clothing grips knowledge is pretty low among grapplers even, which is why so many hate the gi. Judo and bjj have it obviously.

Th number of striking methods which teach cloth gripping or are even aware of it is even more limited..Some karate, kyokushin and goju derived mostly, e.g. Daido juku quite good. Some southern Chinese kung fu, sanchin types, e.g. white crane, SPM have it, but often not understood very well in those systems.)


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

KPM said:


> Grabbing a sleeve rather than the arm itself is sure way to get cut or stabbed!  Trying to trip or drag someone to the ground is a good way to land on the point of the knife.



It sounds like you have great experience in clothed grappling, as in almost every other subject. I bow to your superior knowledge and to your great certainty on matters where it is incredibly difficult to gain experience at all without dying.



> Rolling around on the ground against someone with a knife in hand is a bad idea.  Better to stay on your feet so you can create distance and RUN at the first opportunity!  Or put an obstacle between you and the guy with a knife.



I think this broken hypothetical involves a situation where there is no escape and where you are already involved in a life or death struggle with a knife wielding maniac.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2016)

Well, if you can't run, ...maybe you have to protect someone else? ...or whatever, ...you _have_ to get control of the knife, or the knife wielding arm, and momentarily stop the lethal damage it can cause. _That _is step one. _Then_ other possibilities emerge.

---I agree 100%!  Its just that trying to grab a sleeve is a bad idea in my opinion.   As you pointed out, not everyone will have sleeves!  And if do, they may rip easily.  Or they may be loose.  Not having positive control over the limb itself means that the knifer can still twist and turn and use his knife whether you have grabbed a sleeve or not.

The problem I have with most knife demos I've seen is that they underestimate how insanely hard step one is to accomplish. They gloss over it almost as if it were a foregone conclusion, and then go on to dazzle and distract with steps two, three, four, and beyond.

---Yep!  The Wing Chun Gan/Jum is something that both Marc Denny and Mike Janich have adopted as one of their main knife defense methods.  I greatly respect both of these guys and their abilities.  This is defense number one against someone throwing a "sewing machine" attack, which is one of the most typical things you see in street footage.  This is the guy throwing wide rapid stabs over and over. The Gan/Jum structure acts as a funnel so that whether you catch the thrust high or low it funnels to the center and you rapidly use an inward Lan Sau motion to trap and secure his arm.

---And the problem with being on the ground is that if you lose control of the knifer's arm, even for a split second, that is enough to take multiple stabs to your torso.  What would have been "pitty patty" strikes that you could ignore in an empty-hand situation could easily be deadly stabs when a knife is involved.  On the ground you have no ability to step back quickly or to angle out of the way nearly as well.   If I am empty-hand vs. the knife, being on the ground is the LAST place I would want to be.   And I've never seen a knife defense system that taught anything any different.....meaning....to take a knifer down and try to deal with him on the ground rather than doing everything you can to stay on your feet and either neutralize him or get the heck away from him!   But I guess there may be some out there.


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## Phobius (Feb 3, 2016)

I think there are two aspects, the first is once you control the knife arm. Once arm is under control you should probably take your opponent to the ground in order to subdue him without losing grip of arm.

While standing you often have to use two arms to control the knife hand. While in the ground you get legs/feet as tool to use to control your opponent.

However if you take an opponent to the ground before controlling his knife hand you will be stabbed countless times while trying to control a resisting opponent.

Run away is often the second best option, best being to comply with their wishes, but that is not best taught in a self defense class or with a martial art.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2016)

^^^^ Yes Phobius, I agree!  Having the attacker on the ground AFTER you have gained positive control over the attacking limb is a good thing!  What I was advising against was the idea of grabbing a sleeve and trying to trip or drag the opponent to the ground thinking that  you are then going to try and gain control of the arm on the ground.  And I will qualify this by saying that I STILL wouldn't not want to be ON the ground with the attacker.  I would rather gain control, put the attacker on the ground, and then kneel or sit on top of him!  I certainly wouldn't want him in my guard on the ground, or to be in his guard for that matter.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2016)

Though I'm no high level grappler I've been around it for years. Just basic wrestling in school, JKD grappling in the 70s & 80s. BJJ, submission wrestling, and other grappling types of grappling since. I don't consider myself a grappler but am a lot more than a beginner. Being on the ground with a knifer is the last place I want to be unless I have complete control of the weapon arm, hand, and the weapon. Same in a standing grappling situation. In a grappling clinch one may not be damage at all against flailing punches but that edged weapon changes it all immediately.


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Well then Arizona sounds like a bad place to be attacked with a knife



A few random thoughts:

Is there a _good_ place to be attacked with a knife?

...Actually Arizona's not so bad for knife attacks since so many people carry guns.

But then again people are at greater risk of getting killed by _reckless_ drivers on their way to the gunfight.

Speaking of which, why do they call them "reckless drivers"? Shouldn't they be called something like ."..reck-more drivers"?

Regardless, one of my Eskrima instructors carries knives _and_ guns. All the time. In fact he goes around so heavily armed that the easiest way to kill him would be to push him into a swimming pool.


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Though I'm no high level grappler I've been around it for years. Just basic wrestling in school, JKD grappling in the 70s & 80s. BJJ, submission wrestling, and other grappling types of grappling since. I don't consider myself a grappler but am a lot more than a beginner. Being on the ground with a knifer is the last place I want to be unless I have complete control of the weapon arm, hand, and the weapon. Same in a standing grappling situation. In a grappling clinch one may not be damage at all against flailing punches but that edged weapon changes it all immediately.



Having control of the weapon arm is by definition grappling. You can't decide that you don't want to be grappling _until_ you have control of it- you already are grappling! The best way to gain control of a weapon arm is regular grappling approaches with knife safety awareness added, not a special kind of thing that only gets done with knives. Securing a clinch or clothing grips is not a 50:50 situation with the attacker any more. Clinching limits their options if you know what you are doing and increases your percentage of avoiding being stabbed. Both moving freely is I think the worst place to be with a knife wielding assailant because you can both move the same but they have a knife and you do not. Horrible situation. 

Similarly with "being on the ground". Why on earth would you be there unless you are already grappling and already have established enough control to take the assailant to the ground in the first place? The best place to grapple with someone that doesn't know how to grapple is on the ground because ground limits movement and leverage for untrained people even more than clinching or cloth grabbing standing up, while allowing more control and leverage for trained people. It makes the gap between trained and untrained larger than standing because moving on the ground is not something most people do habitually. Being on the ground is the first place I would want to be with any knife armed assailant because it would allow me to be reasonably sure that they didn't have a clue what they were doing or what I was doing.


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## Phobius (Feb 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Having control of the weapon arm is by definition grappling. You can't decide that you don't want to be grappling _until_ you have control of it- you already are grappling! The best way to gain control of a weapon arm is regular grappling approaches with knife safety awareness added, not a special kind of thing that only gets done with knives. Securing a clinch or clothing grips is not a 50:50 situation with the attacker any more. Clinching limits their options if you know what you are doing and increases your percentage of avoiding being stabbed. Both moving freely is I think the worst place to be with a knife wielding assailant because you can both move the same but they have a knife and you do not. Horrible situation.



I dont think he ever stated controlling weapon arm was not grappling.

Also I think you are gonna get stabbed badly if you approach an opponent with a knife as if to do regular empty handed grappling. First you need to control his actions/stabbing which I guess most often leaves you bleeding from outside of your arms and legs. Hopefully keeping internal organs intact from any potential stick wounds. This is the problem, you better make him bleed more than you so he will bleed out before you, secondly dont make him bleed so much that he will likely bleed out prior to ambulance arriving.

Once this is done then you can establish a grappling base. Otherwise you are rushing into an opponent with one major advantage. He just needs to tag you to win, while you have to do a perfect performance without a single hit and a perfectly executed finishing move to knock him out or subdue him.

Finally if both are standing up, why not just run away? What makes this the worst place to be? If he is close to you then you want to get distance of course, but rather distance than going even closer. So standing up would in my view be preferred. Those rapid stabbings are a pain, literally. This is of course all situational, if you are stabbed in the leg he will run faster than you perhaps, in such a case you need him on the ground.

EDIT: Want to conclude myself, being in a knife fight sucks.


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Phobius said:


> I dont think he ever stated controlling weapon arm was not grappling.



He does



> Being on the ground with a knifer is the last place I want to be unless I have complete control of the weapon arm, hand, and the weapon. Same in a standing grappling situation.



Attempting to control the arm is being in a standing grappling situation. You can't control the arm before entering a standing grappling situation.


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## Phobius (Feb 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Attempting to control the arm is being in a standing grappling situation. You can't control the arm before entering a standing grappling situation.



Not worth discussing, you know what he meant so we can continue.


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Also I think you are gonna get stabbed badly if you approach an opponent with a knife as if to do regular empty handed grappling. .



I think it is a myth that there is a special kind of knife grappling. Grappling is grappling. Control methods are the same. In a knife situation they need to be focused on not getting stabbed but otherwise identical


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Phobius said:


> Not worth discussing, you know what he meant so we can continue.



I really don't. Not trying to be obtuse, just don't understand. Fighting to gain control of the arm _is_ a grappling situation, which you are in (whether you like it or not) before control of that arm is gained. Attempting to gain full control of an arm in a grappling situation immediately and fully without first establishing other body control seems pretty unlikely, to the point of being impossible I would say.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2016)

Oh my.
Grappling as you know is more than controlling an opponent's arms. You can be in standing grapple and not have control of the arms and same as on the ground.



guy b. said:


> Having control of the weapon arm is by definition grappling. You can't decide that you don't want to be grappling _until_ you have control of it- you already are grappling! The best way to gain control of a weapon arm is regular grappling approaches with knife safety awareness added, not a special kind of thing that only gets done with knives. Securing a clinch or clothing grips is not a 50:50 situation with the attacker any more. Clinching limits their options if you know what you are doing and increases your percentage of avoiding being stabbed. Both moving freely is I think the worst place to be with a knife wielding assailant because you can both move the same but they have a knife and you do not. Horrible situation.


Oh my. Is it possible to be in a standing grappling situation and not have control of the weapon arm?
Is it possible to be in a ground grappling situation and not have control of the weapon arm?
I am certain, you being an experienced grappler, you are well aware that you can be grappling and not even be touching an arm.



guy b. said:


> "being on the ground." Why on earth would you be there unless you are already grappling and already have established enough control to take the assailant to the ground in the first place? The best place to grapple with someone that doesn't know how to grapple is on the ground because ground limits movement and leverage for untrained people even more than clinching or cloth grabbing standing up, while allowing more control and leverage for trained people. It makes the gap between trained and untrained larger than standing because moving on the ground is not something most people do habitually. Being on the ground is the first place I would want to be with any knife armed assailant because it would allow me to be reasonably sure that they didn't have a clue what they were doing or what I was doing.


Why would one be on the ground during an attack?
Oh I don't know... how about, I tripped during the evade or while creating distance. Or, maybe I slipped or was knocked down.

In my self defensive action I don't want to limit myself to other possibilities either; Like where are his buddies?


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> I really don't. Not trying to be obtuse, just don't understand. Fighting to gain control of the arm _is_ a grappling situation, which you are in (whether you like it or not) before control of that arm is gained. Attempting to gain full control of an arm in a grappling situation immediately and fully without first establishing other body control seems pretty unlikely, to the point of being impossible I would say.


Do you feel WC is grappling?
We do quite a bit of arm controlling, body controlling, leg controlling.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2016)

I dont think he ever stated controlling weapon arm was not grappling.

---Me either!  Danny even said "a standing grappling situation"!!!

Also I think you are gonna get stabbed badly if you approach an opponent with a knife as if to do regular empty handed grappling.

---I agree.  Because the knifer doesn't have to be any kind of grappling expert to take out a grappler on the ground.  All he has to do is really struggle and thrash about until his arm is free for even a split second.  Because it doesn't take much motion or leverage at all to do major damage with a knife. 

 He just needs to tag you to win, while you have to do a perfect performance without a single hit and a perfectly executed finishing move to knock him out or subdue him.

---Exactly! 

Finally if both are standing up, why not just run away? What makes this the worst place to be? If he is close to you then you want to get distance of course, but rather distance than going even closer. So standing up would in my view be preferred.

---I agree.  I don't know why anyone would even suggest that being on the ground against someone with a knife is better than being on your feet against a knife!  I'd say that must be someone with no knife training!


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Oh my.
> Grappling as you know is more than controlling an opponent's arms. You can be in standing grapple and not have control of the arms and same as on the ground.
> 
> Oh my. Is it possible to be in a standing grappling situation and not have control of the weapon arm?
> ...



Again fighting to gain control of the arm _is a grappling situation_, which you are already in (whether you like it or not) _before_ control of that arm is gained. Advocating control of the weapon arm is advocating grappling with an armed assailant without full control of the weapon arm. There seems to be a belief that full weapon arm control can be established without fighting for it, which to me sounds unrealistic in the extreme. Control of the person via grips, especially on the clothes, is a good way to work towards and gain full control of an arm relatively safely, as well as controlling balance and movement. A person under control should always be moved to a position of further control using the control already established, for example by moving them from standing to a control position on the ground where weight and leverage can be brought to bear more effectively while further restricting movement.



> Why would one be on the ground during an attack?
> Oh I don't know... how about, I tripped during the evade or while creating distance. Or, maybe I slipped or was knocked down.



Then don't clown around trying to move, parry and evade standing against someone able to move around freely with a knife. Close distance and establish rapid control over them with the aim always of further restricting options until you are able to break their arm and remove the weapon from the fight. Impose your plan upon them. Do not wait for them to impose the fatal stabbing they have planned upon you. 



> In my self defensive action I don't want to limit myself to other possibilities either; Like where are his buddies?



It is fantasy to expect to survive a multi person armed attack


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## guy b. (Feb 3, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Do you feel WC is grappling?
> We do quite a bit of arm controlling, body controlling, leg controlling



Absolutely not, no hand chasing in VT, which is why I feel it is pretty much tossing a coin vs a knife. There is no moving the percentages in your favour with VT, Pretty suicidal I think. 

If VT is used as grappling then it is about the worst method of grappling in the world. Almost anything else is better.


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## Danny T (Feb 3, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Absolutely not, no hand chasing in VT, which is why I feel it is pretty much tossing a coin vs a knife. There is no moving the percentages in your favour with VT, Pretty suicidal I think.
> 
> If VT is used as grappling then it is about the worst method of grappling in the world. Almost anything else is better.


Didn't say anything about chasing hands. I said controlling the arms. You know like with the proper elbow energy and positioning you were adamant about in other postings.
You stated controlling the arms is grappling. In the application of many of the moves and positions of wing chun the arms are controlled.
Must be we have a different meaning for the term controlling.


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## Phobius (Feb 4, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Then don't clown around trying to move, parry and evade standing against someone able to move around freely with a knife. Close distance and establish rapid control over them with the aim always of further restricting options until you are able to break their arm and remove the weapon from the fight. Impose your plan upon them. Do not wait for them to impose the fatal stabbing they have planned upon you.



It is easier to evade a jab than a knife. Your opponent will have an advantage also in length, he will reach when you will not. This sounds like a training scenario, he attempts to stab you and you may react to it. In real life you can hurt his arm, punch him as hard as possible but his mind is still set on killing you. This means he is most likely in a frenzy and pumped up with adrenaline. All rules are out in such a fight, even in a painful submission grip on his arm you will see that he might even break his own arm just trying to stab you fatally. A broken arm does not mean he has been stopped.

Once more, a knife fight is dangerous and fatal.

Are you advocating going on the offense against a knife wearing opponent? Then you need the following to apply, that he does not wish to stab you. In any other scenario he will do that upon your entry, at least for self defense. Noone will pull out a knife, challenge you to a duel from a good distance and then talk **** about your family before attacking. If they intend to use the knife they will walk up, pull out a knife and stab you as many times as possible in as little time as possible and then walk through you and leave.


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## guy b. (Feb 4, 2016)

Phobius said:


> If they intend to use the knife they will walk up, pull out a knife and stab you as many times as possible



Lol, really?

You guys veer constantly between multi bad guy kung fu fantasy and the sombre voice of reason. Ok I get it, it pleases people to believe that wing chun will help against knife attacks. That's fine.


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## Phobius (Feb 4, 2016)

Your WC might not help, but going out running every other day will help against knife attacks. The whole statement is simple, anything that helps you react and avoid being stabbed is helpful in knife attacks.

We are not veering constantly. I have said that training multiple guys, not part of this discussion, is to train the willpower of continuing in a hopeless fight because by doing so it increases your odds of actually coming out alive (not a winner).

There are many things in WC movement that are helpful in reducing the risk of taking a fatal wound from a knife, not a wound itself but those that will kill you on the spot.


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## KPM (Feb 13, 2016)

Came across this today.  The actual group is dead and gone, but the website is still up.   Shows a guy with Pekiti & Wing Chun showing some decent defenses against the knife.  Not sure what version of Wing Chun he knows.  He is using what we call "Ding Jee Ma" in Pin Sun Wing Chun.  This is the "cat stance-ish" stance he is using for his evasion.  For him he may be using the same thing from Pekiti. 

Wing Chun Fight Club - Wing Chun vs the Skilled Knife Fighter DVD Excerpt - Sample Techniques


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## wckf92 (Feb 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Came across this today.  The actual group is dead and gone, but the website is still up.   Shows a guy with Pekiti & Wing Chun showing some decent defenses against the knife.  Not sure what version of Wing Chun he knows.  He is using what we call "Ding Jee Ma" in Pin Sun Wing Chun.  This is the "cat stance-ish" stance he is using for his evasion.  For him he may be using the same thing from Pekiti.
> 
> Wing Chun Fight Club - Wing Chun vs the Skilled Knife Fighter DVD Excerpt - Sample Techniques



all I got was a video about a wsl guy and a grappler... no knife defenses(?)


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## Blindside (Feb 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Came across this today.  The actual group is dead and gone, but the website is still up.   Shows a guy with Pekiti & Wing Chun showing some decent defenses against the knife.  Not sure what version of Wing Chun he knows.  He is using what we call "Ding Jee Ma" in Pin Sun Wing Chun.  This is the "cat stance-ish" stance he is using for his evasion.  For him he may be using the same thing from Pekiti.
> 
> Wing Chun Fight Club - Wing Chun vs the Skilled Knife Fighter DVD Excerpt - Sample Techniques



I know Stephen, this video was filmed when he was either just beginning PTK or in his first year. So it doesn't have much if any influence from the PTK side of things.


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## Danny T (Feb 13, 2016)

Thanks for the info Blindside.
What is shown is not indicative of good PTK nor wing chun vs a blade as I know it.

According to the other video on this site: "Sifu Stephan Joffe is a Wong Shun Leung Lineage Sifu."


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## guy b (Feb 13, 2016)

Danny T said:


> According to the other video on this site: "Sifu Stephan Joffe is a Wong Shun Leung Lineage Sifu."



Don't believe everything you read


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## wckf92 (Feb 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> Don't believe everything you read



So he is not a Sifu of the WSL lineage? Or, he is, but didn't learn the real sh1t?


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## guy b (Feb 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> So he is not a Sifu of the WSL lineage? Or, he is, but didn't learn the real sh1t?



It's just friendly advice


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## wckf92 (Feb 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> It's just friendly advice



Ok


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## geezer (Feb 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> So he is not a Sifu of the WSL lineage? Or, he is, but didn't learn the real sh1t?



Joffe identifies himself as a student of Michael Street who, apparently, has had some training with Victor Kan, William Cheung, and now is pursuing PB-WSL VT. See below:

Michael Street | eWingChun


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## wckf92 (Feb 13, 2016)

geezer said:


> Joffe identifies himself as a student of Michael Street who, apparently, has had some training with Victor Kan, William Cheung, and now is pursuing PB-WSL VT. See below:
> 
> Michael Street | eWingChun



So, was this filmed when he was already a PB convert?


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## Danny T (Feb 13, 2016)

guy b said:


> Don't believe everything you read


I don't.
It is also why I state: 
"According to the other video on this site".

So I did a look up of Mr. Joffe.
It appears he trained under a man who trained under Victor Kan. That same gentleman, from what I found, also trained under Phillip Bayer and is under the WSL VT KF Association Europe. 

If you have resources where other research can be performed please share.


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## guy b (Feb 14, 2016)

Danny T said:


> I don't.
> It is also why I state:
> "According to the other video on this site".
> 
> ...



No other resources are required beyond what you already looked at.

Check timeline. You forgot to mention another person.

Basic check also shows teacher of Joffe doesn't look at all similar to PB VT. Reasons could vary, I don't know him.

As I said, don't believe everything you read. Especially don't approach it with a pre-determined conclusion in your head. Keep eyes open.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> No other resources are required beyond what you already looked at.
> 
> Check timeline. You forgot to mention another person.


Timeline checked. Other person not mention because of timeline was prior to having trained under WSL lineage.



guy b said:


> Basic check also shows teacher of Joffe doesn't look at all similar to PB VT. Reasons could vary, I don't know him.





guy b said:


> As I said, don't believe everything you read. Especially don't approach it with a pre-determined conclusion in your head. Keep eyes open.


As I said I don't.
I don't a pre-determined conclusion. 
I only stated according to the video the gentleman is in the WSL lineage. You disagree apparently. No matter to me one way or the other.


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## guy b. (Feb 14, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Timeline checked. Other person not mention because of timeline was prior to having trained under WSL lineage.



Why would you mention PB?

Joffe via Michael street via Clive Potter. Potter has a confused representation of WSL method at best, not at all representative. Michael Street looks worse if anything. And I say this as a person that trained for quite a while with Clive Potter.

Joffe is claiming WSL from Street via Potter, not via PB. Info on his website looks like he has since gone in his own direction entirely. I'm surprised you can't see this from his movement to be honest, but there you are.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Why would you mention PB?
> 
> Joffe via Michael street via Clive Potter. Potter has a confused representation of WSL method at best, not at all representative. Michael Street looks worse if anything. And I say this as a person that trained for quite a while with Clive Potter.
> 
> Joffe is claiming WSL from Street via Potter, not via PB. Info on his website looks like he has since gone in his own direction entirely. I'm surprised you can't see this from his movement to be honest, but there you are.



I mentioned Phillip Bayer because in the material I found under Michael Street, Mr. Street states he and a wing chun brother traveled to Germany to train with Bayer upon an invitation by Bayer. Impressed by Mr. Bayer he began to train under him immediately and became a member of the Ving Tsun Kung Fu association Europe. 
Mr. Joffe states he still is an associate of Mr. Street.
Mr. Potter also states he is a student of WSL. You say Potter is not representative of WSL but is he of the WSL lineage? And is Mr. Street also of the WSL lineage having trained under both Potter and Bayer. Or, did they and he not train long enough to be considered of the WSL lineage?


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## guy b (Feb 14, 2016)

Please don't troll me. Use your eyes

lol at "timeline checked"


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Please don't troll me. Use your eyes
> 
> lol at "timeline checked"


Troll you? That is comical.
I'm not trying to sow discord, to argue, or to upset anyone and I don't believe I've posted anything inflammatory.
I posted based upon the information I have. Perhaps you have more or different information.


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## guy b (Feb 14, 2016)

Different information is available by simply googling the names of the people involved.

I have told you what I know, make of it what you will.


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## Danny T (Feb 14, 2016)

guy b said:


> Different information is available by simply googling the names of the people involved.
> 
> I have told you what I know, make of it what you will.


Have done so.
Maybe you are better in googling than I.
Haven't found any other info.
And you did say not to believe everything I read so I was hoping you'd be a bit more forth coming.

You haven't told me any much more than "Don't believe everything you read".


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## KPM (Feb 14, 2016)

Danny T said:


> Have done so.
> Maybe you are better in googling than I.
> Haven't found any other info.
> And you did say not to believe everything I read so I was hoping you'd be a bit more forth coming.
> ...



Guy wrote elsewhere:
_I am interested in meaningful discussion. What you are doing constitutes obfuscation and avoidance. That is ok with me, but it isn't convincing.
_
Ironic, don't you think?_ _


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2016)

KPM said:


> Guy wrote elsewhere:
> _I am interested in meaningful discussion. What you are doing constitutes obfuscation and avoidance. That is ok with me, but it isn't convincing.
> _
> Ironic, don't you think?_ _



Yes. No. Maybe. ....I think Guy has some legitimate doubts about the man and his instructor but doesn't want to get involved in "fraud busting". If he doesn't care to say more, that's his business. Do we have to fight about everything?


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## guy b. (Feb 15, 2016)

geezer said:


> Yes. No. Maybe. ....I think Guy has some legitimate doubts about the man and his instructor but doesn't want to get involved in "fraud busting". If he doesn't care to say more, that's his business. Do we have to fight about everything?



Exactly. Moderators have warned me about discussing individuals before. I have already said more than I should, so please either believe or don't but don't try to drag me into saying more.


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## guy b. (Feb 15, 2016)

KPM said:


> Guy wrote elsewhere:
> _I am interested in meaningful discussion. What you are doing constitutes obfuscation and avoidance. That is ok with me, but it isn't convincing.
> _
> Ironic, don't you think?_ _



No, you are avoiding discussion on wing chun, apparently for no other reason than to roll your eyes. I am avoiding detailed discussion about particular individuals after making my general thoughts known because it is against forum rules.

I don't really mind if you want to discuss or not but it is hard to avoid you on a tiny forum. I just find the semi flirtatious toll thing you are doing to be a bit...weird I guess. I understand that it might be a major goal of yours to make me look stupid. Obviously I have offended you and you can't forget it. But I don't think it is very helpful to your arguments about wing chun for you to be acting in this way.


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## KPM (Feb 15, 2016)

geezer said:


> Yes. No. Maybe. ....I think Guy has some legitimate doubts about the man and his instructor but doesn't want to get involved in "fraud busting". If he doesn't care to say more, that's his business. Do we have to fight about everything?



Now look.  Guy has done his very best to start on fight on each thread so far.  I am simply pointing out what a hypocrite he can be in hopes that he will develop a little personal insight.  "Meaningful discussion" my a55!  He nit-picks and tries to turn everything into an argument.  Do you disagree Steve?


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## Phobius (Feb 15, 2016)

KPM, please stop. Talk about the topic or make a new thread.


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## KPM (Feb 15, 2016)

Phobius said:


> KPM, please stop. Talk about the topic or make a new thread.



So its Ok for Guy to try and start a fight, but when I point out that that is what he is doing I'm the one in the wrong?  I've started a couple of topics that I thought would be interesting and Guy has done his best to try and throw them off course.  You and I were having a perfectly good discussion on the YGKYM thread, don't you think?


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## guy b. (Feb 15, 2016)

KPM said:


> Guy has done his very best to start on fight on each thread so far.



Actually I've been trying to discuss wing chun with you. It isn't my fault that you are incredibly touchy. Just because I don't agree or can't understand something you are saying doesn't mean I have any personal animosity towards you. Please grow up, you are ruining the forum with this tedious feud.


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## Danny T (Feb 15, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Exactly. Moderators have warned me about discussing individuals before. I have already said more than I should, so please either believe or don't but don't try to drag me into saying more.


Drag you.
Sir you brought it up. 
I'm out of the discussion.


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