# When should you open a school?



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 1, 2001)

Or, more accurately, at what point are you ready to open your own school?


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## Icepick (Nov 1, 2001)

Right after you win the lottery, but not before!


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## GouRonin (Nov 1, 2001)

You're in it for the money. Unless you're a McDojo and then we don't want you anyway!

I'll never understand why so many people want to open their own school...


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 1, 2001)

Seriously, I know I personally am in no way ready, but, 5v years from now...who knows.  I guess I'm currious what the path is, and if maybe a better idea might be to keep the day job, and do classes somewhere else a few nights a week.  I dunno...just fishing for ideas, plus, I'm sure theres other folks a LOT! farther along than me who are currious as to whats -really- needed.


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## GouRonin (Nov 1, 2001)

I'm sure it will help to have a day job. Many people I have talked to who run good schools say they DO NOT PAY WELL. You have to augment it with other things.

Personally I think there are too many "Paper Tigers" out there with schools teaching unrealistic stuff to people willing to suspend the disbelief that they might be able to make it work for them. Even then there are people who have a great system/art but man, I have no clue as to how they stay open.

I think there should be some proficiency in what you do. Otherwise you're not helping things much. You're just peeing in the gene pool and we'll all need to add more chlorine.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 1, 2001)

My instructor starting teaching just to try and spread the art. At the time, no one was teaching the style on the east coast of the U.S.  Since he was in the U.S. Air Force at the time, he didn't need to do it for the money.

I agree with Gou that if you're doing it for the money, you're doing it for all the wrong reasons.  While it is possible to actually make a living teaching the martial arts, it doesn't happen often.  I've seen more martial arts schools fail than succeed.  Some, because the teacher just didn't know anything.  Some, because the teacher knew his art, but didn't know how to teach it.  Many fail because martial artists usually aren't businessmen first.

I'd like to do it just to spread the art and to keep my skills improving.  I've always said that if you can't teach it, then you don't know it.  Therefore, teaching the art will ensure that I know the art, as well as give me better understanding of it as I teach it over the years and discover new aspects of the system.

Babbling again.  I need a gag.

Cthulhu


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## DWright (Nov 3, 2001)

I started teaching in my backyard to a couple of friends, and somewhere along the line we came up with a name.  We decided to link my e-mail to the IMAF (Prior to the storm).   I had many contacts from people wanting to learn the Art of Arnis.

We moved to a friends preschool, and soon outgrew that.  One of my students mentioned moving to the Filipino-American Association.   The Association was thrilled to have someone promoting the Art, and provided the building rent free.

We don't charge for our classes, or private lessons, but we are very successful.  We have been "in business" for a year now.

I can't honestly say that I thought I was ready to start a school, or even wanted a school,  it just happened. 

I guess if the goal is to spread the Art and not make money I have succeeded.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 8, 2001)

Thats the funny thing....sometimes, I want to earn a living at it, othertimes, its just the desire to have fun and train with some cool friends.  So, for me, I dunno.


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## bscastro (Nov 9, 2001)

I thought about this a little too. I have taught some Tae Kwon Do classes at th University of Rochester when my instructor was not in and I really enjoyed it. I enjoy teaching in general.

However, a self-sustaining school is also a business. I was thinking maybe 5-7 years down the line trying something like that. On the other hand, 1-3 years down the line I can maybe teach a class in my backyard or community center, charge much less (if anything) and just have fun.

I think one should look at what is the goal in starting a school. If it's to make money and earn a living doing something you love and are decent (although there are some schools where the instructors aren't that good) at, great, go for it. If you want to have fun sharing the art you know, getting in some extra training, or you enjoy teaching, but you have another job and don't want to take the business risks, then maybe a small class or club might be the way to go.

So many options 

Bryanb


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

I'd like to start out with a class first.  If it goes well, then I'd like to have a school in order to give the class a better environment in which to train that can house more training equipment.

Cthulhu


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 19, 2001)

I look at owning and operating a school as needing 3 different Black Blets.  The first in you styel, the second Black Blet as an instructor, the as a business man.

This might sound confusing, but you need to be atleast as proficient as an instructor and business man as you are in your art.  If not you are in for deep trouble.   

I have been through the rigors of owning and operating a school, it is not  easy.  You have to love teaching to be a school owner.  You have to consider teaching your reward for all the other crap you have to put up with.  You never have the time to train the way you really want.  There is always some pressing matter that must be attended to, and you have to do it or the doors will close.  The pay sucks for a long time, then it only mildly sucks.

If this is the case, why do so many try to open school, we love our art.  We want to help others love or art as much as we love it.  Is there any other job I would want other than teaching?  NO.


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## bscastro (Nov 19, 2001)

Well said. One reason I would like to open a school down the line is because I enjoy sharing my knowledge in all areas. I think one must love the act of teaching, as Rob said. Some people love training, but not teaching, and some like to teach, but are not that good. So you need both. As a person in public school education, you don't do it for the money. It seems the same is true for most martial arts schools.


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## GouRonin (Nov 20, 2001)

Not everyone likes people. Myself I can't stand most people and only work with those I like. Teaching is a neccessary evil in my view. Otherwise you get all these boneheads who you just want to never see.
:angry:


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 20, 2001)

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *Not everyone likes people. Myself I can't stand most people and only work with those I like. Teaching is a neccessary evil in my view. Otherwise you get all these boneheads who you just want to never see.
> :angry: *



It is not nice to pick on Boneheads, we have feelings too.


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## GouRonin (Nov 20, 2001)

Heh heh heh...
:boing2:


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## Icepick (Nov 27, 2001)

Coming from Renegade's first 'underground' school, I always thought it would be cool to open my own.  Dreams of training all day, with breaks for weightlifting, cardio and meals....ahhh.... :angel:  Heaven!

BUT THEN.... I started training with Kyle, who teaches out of a successful karate school that seems to make quite a bit of money...little kids....screaming... Pokemon...birthday parties...school pictures...Dragonball Z...stuffed karate bears...
:flame: 

I have since decided to become independently wealthy, and train at my leisure.  That whole wealthy thing is turning out to be a SLOW process though.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2001)

Ewww....Kids + Pokemon....  got an ex-gf...she was quite the poke-nerd.... 27 yrs old, buys all the toys, wears the clothes, has to take the stuffed chu out of her chu backpack to tell 'everyone' how big a fan she is....  thats the reason shes an ex....  way too loopy for me...

I think I'm gonna stick to letting the experts own the schools, maybe just form a sword arts study group...once I can consistently remember which end of the sword I hold... 

:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 1, 2002)

i started teaching as soon as i recieved my first dan and then once i recieved my second my sifu sent me out to teach at local elementary schools and community centers from there i began running the day to day business of the main school and eventually when i recieved my third dan sifu told me that i was no able to teach on my own and then about a year later had to close the school due to an illness after that i trained at some local mantis schools and a couple of tae kwon do schools and began to be discusted with what i saw them doing and teaching so i decided that i was going to bring some ethics and morality back to the area and opened my own school and under cut all of them as far as monthly fees and began teaching for "real" not just turning out belt after belt after belt i felt that i had an obligation to my sifu and to all of my past students to not let these mcdojo bastardize the martial arts any more. needless to say i upset alot of "masters" by doing this but i can sleep at night knowing that when someone walks out of my school with a new rank they earned it with hard work and not money. lol i realize im rambling but oh well ill wrap it up i could go on for hours


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 1, 2002)

Ramblings good.    I agree with you.  Too many schools turn out belt after belt simply for the $$ without really giving it any worth. 

My personal opinion is, if I'm going to wear a belt, I want to have earned it.  Test me first, then offer me the belt.  Don't just 'honor' me with it...it only cheepens the rank otherwise.  IMHO.

:cheers:


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## TLH3rdDan (Mar 1, 2002)

i totally agree... my biggest complaint about local schools around me is the infamous "Black Belt Club" i wish i could find the genius who came up with that idea and beat his a$$ and i think i have an idea where it came from but i wont name names... i mean its just disgusting when you walk in and you get slapped with a contract for a year at 65 a month and they want you to pay a bunch of fees up front ussually around 200 dollars then they offer you the black belt club.." if you sign up for our black belt club we can guarantee you to get a black belt in 3 years" and so on and so on all you have to do is sign this three year contract and give us some more money. and then they test the person every 3 or 4 months weather they are ready or not and charge them for the test and slap the belt on them and send them on their way... and it kills me that some of the biggest names in martial arts around here people like David Deaton and Bill Taylor and Taylor Hayden and Dale Kirby and every single tae kwon do school in the nashville area have this damn club thing and i dont see how they can sleep at night knowing they are sending people out  their doors with paper belts


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## kempograppler (Mar 9, 2002)

When your backyard gets too small


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## Rob_Broad (Mar 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by TLH3rdDan _
> 
> *i totally agree... my biggest complaint about local schools around me is the infamous "Black Belt Club" i wish i could find the genius who came up with that idea and beat his a$$ and i think i have an idea where it came from but i wont name names... i mean its just disgusting when you walk in and you get slapped with a contract for a year at 65 a month and they want you to pay a bunch of fees up front ussually around 200 dollars then they offer you the black belt club.." if you sign up for our black belt club we can guarantee you to get a black belt in 3 years" and so on and so on all you have to do is sign this three year contract and give us some more money. and then they test the person every 3 or 4 months weather they are ready or not and charge them for the test and slap the belt on them and send them on their way... and it kills me that some of the biggest names in martial arts around here people like David Deaton and Bill Taylor and Taylor Hayden and Dale Kirby and every single tae kwon do school in the nashville area have this damn club thing and i dont see how they can sleep at night knowing they are sending people out  their doors with paper belts *



I have ran a Black Belt club before but it was different than the one you described.  The program I had was a commitment for the student to train to get their black belt.  I charged an extra $10.00 a month to the members who joined and when they were ready their test had already been prepaid by the money they had paid.  I din't have time constraints.  But it could save them a lot of money because I had a price increase every other yr.


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## Stickboxer (Mar 29, 2002)

First thing I consider is not when my students should open a school, but when they should begin teaching.

I teach in Phase Levels. In Phase Three, advanced students--who are in the higher "gup" levels of traditional styles, like a red and brown belt in TKD--can assist in the instruction of beginners in Phase One.

Upon graduating Phase Three, my students have reached the equivalent of a first degree black belt. In addition to learning more techniques and refining what they know, they also learn about teaching and study the nature of learning (I've taken graduate college courses in education).

Phase Four students become Apprentice Instructors and can assist in training Phase One and Phase Two levels in my school. Keep in mind that Phase Four graduates are approximately the equivalent of TKD's Second Degree Black Belt, where in most major TKD organizations still isn't trusted enough to run their own school.

Students in Phase Five are Associate Instructors, and now can teach up through the Phase Three (black belt) level. Phase Five instructors can open their own school, but remain associated with my academy. Of course, it's actually expected that these teachers forego my curriculum and make up their own. Phase Five graduates are on par with newly-awarded Third Degree Black Belts in TKD, which is what is usually the level where its OK to open your own school.


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## RCastillo (Apr 7, 2002)

I'm stuck in a situation to where I can't keep students. Two of them were HS people, and left after receiving their Yellow. Another, came with me from when I was teaching privately at home, then came with me to the YWCA, was working on Blue, then never returned. I've been at the Y for 16 months. Yes, people know about it, and it comes out in the paper several times a week!

Others have come by, but promise to show up, and never do. Because of this, I am thinking of switching to TKD(I'm a 3rd in both Kenpo, TKD) The reson being, there are several TKD schools here, and that's what people seem to be interested in.  They seem to know nothing of Kenpo!!!

Your opinions please, as I've just about had it with no one to teach, and it's not due to lack of experience. I'm a HS teacher(21 years), spent 11 of those coaching as well. So it's not like I'm a rookie.

Sign me, Frustrated as hell!:soapbox:


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## Rob_Broad (Apr 8, 2002)

I would look at the positives and the negatives to see where things have worked best for you.  Did you have more students when you were teaching privately or in group classes could the lack of enthusiam be due to the facilities or the price structure due the facility.

 Another thing to look at is the difference between what you have to offer and what TKD has to offer.   People naturally tend to gravitate to what is more common and apparently easier, you have to make them see the benefits of the kenpo program.

Try different promotions, have bring a fiend night.  Try a contest at carnival or large event where people fill out ballots to win a free month.  Give one grand prize of 3 months.  Draw that prize publically and then call every other person who enetered the draw and tell them they won a free month.  Newspaper advertisements can be expensive and really don't do a lot for you  compared to other methods of advertising.   

Try working on a referral system with some local businesses.  I did this and it was great.  I charged $55.00 plus tax for lessons, so I ran a promo of 2 months and uniform for $99.00 plus tax.  But I had local businesses send me people to try classes instead of me paying for major advertising.  The way this worked was when people rented a video at the store they recieved a 1 week free coupon for lessons, if the person joined after their free week I gave the video store owner $25.00 out of the persons intitial payment of $99.00.  The person had to bring in the coupon to get the deal, and the coupon was laid out as a thank you from the business that referred them to me.  So the person recieving the coupon felt like they were a valued customer of that business.  This promo got me 20 new students in 6 weeks.  Yes many quit after their 2 months were up but that is normal for any school.

If you have any questions about other promos email me and I 'll put some stuff together for you.  Stay with the Kenpo, the last thing needed is another TKD school in a saturatedmarket.


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## Seig (Apr 18, 2002)

When I left Florida and moved back to West Virginia,  I had a choice to make.  I could either go back to a TKD environment or go to a friend of mine that has had a school in the area for about 20 years.  I found neither idea appealing, so I watched TV for a while.  After a while the couch potatoe routine got old and I was itching to get back to it.  I was trying to figure out a way to teach with out going to the McDojo and being told " I don't care if you studied this art for 14 years, HERE you are a white belt."  That leaves a real sour taste.  So while I was sitting around feeling sorry for myself I thought back to what Master Zingg did when he started his school.....He started the Karate classes at the local college.  So after a day on the phone and speaking to 12 different people that didn't know anything, I got through to the head of the Health, Physical Education and Recreation department.  As it happened, he needed a new instructor fast.  I got the job.  The first thing I did was scrap the old program that the 19 year old female who had been teaching.  The rteturning students were a little disgruntled the first two weeks.  I started getting to the meat after they could do basic kicks and punches.  A group of the students wanted to continue with me but already had their gym credits.  They put up the security deposit and what not for me to open my own place.  I started with 6 and am up to 20, 11 months later.


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## KoshoBob (Apr 18, 2002)

When I started I wanted to open my own school someday. Now I am happy teaching at my friend's dojo  He started out teaching at night several places and finally decided to open his own school and a bunch of students came with him.

If I start teaching on my own, it would be a small club style with dues enough to cover expenses.


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## GouRonin (Apr 18, 2002)

Running a school os hard work. At the school I volunteer at I see the hard work he does and appreciate his hard work. I have seen what other schools need to do. People like Renegade :erg: put a lot of time into their school and their association and it shows.

Students who don't respect the time and effort it takes to run a good school need a lumpin'.


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## Stickboxer (Apr 19, 2002)

I briefly trained in a local Ving Tsun school where the only three empty-hand forms are taught very traditionally. After learning the forms and going through their curriculum, you reach what they say is the equivalent of a black belt within two years.

"OK," I told them, "Once those three forms are learned, when do you begin learning the Wooden Dummy form (108 movements)?"

They told me that's something people learn in their third year of classes.

"And I know there's one more form to be learned in this style--a dragon staff kata. When are students taught that?"

They told me that's learned in the fourth year, but you don't learn it from them... because by then, you should have begun your own school.

"So no one here could teach it? Does anyone here know it?"

No one knew it. They opened this school with the barest experience, and expected students to quickly open their own branch and teach what they didn't really know.

By the way...

A few weeks later, we were going over the most basic form, and I had a technical question about a hand placement near the beginning. I asked every person in the school, from the more experienced students to the several instructors.

"Should my palm be facing out or down?" In other words, I was asking if it was a finger jab, a block, or a palm-thrust.

"What do you think?" each one asked me.

"I think you don't know!!!!!"

And I didn't let the door hit my butt on the way out!


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## Kirk (Apr 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Icepick _
> 
> *I have since decided to become independently wealthy, and train at my leisure.  That whole wealthy thing is turning out to be a SLOW process though. *



Now you're talkin!  I want to become independently wealthy,
and live at my school!   Even help out (although it's running
just fine) by bringing in the "monsters of kenpo" (heheheheh 
my term referring to Huk, Trejo, Conatser, The Professor and
Maryanne).


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## cdhall (May 15, 2002)

I have been thinking about this opening a school thing and I'll try to be brief with what I've found while addressing some of the previous issues.

1. There are 3 TKD Schools within site of each other across from my house.  I was told this was a perfect spot for a Kenpo School.  I think this is called differentiation or something and it very well could work although Mr. Castillo has evidence to the contrary.  I'd be tempted to advertise why I'm not a TKD school if I were him... I have a few ideas on how to do this but I must save them. 

2. I may make black next year.  If so I can not run an independent school until I'm a 3rd if I stay with my teacher/assoc.  I think.  So I have decided that this may be best.
A) Start teaching at a YMCA or Gym somewhere and keep my day job.
B) Start a Black Belt club or only have a Black Belt club and limit my students to 12 or less.  I would teach them at high-speed to try to get them to Brown in 2 years when I'm a 2nd.  Then to Black by 4yrs when I'm a 3rd and can now be on my own.
C) Open my school with at least 6 of these Black Belts as Teachers.  Two for AM workouts.  Two for Lunch Cardio.  Two for Kids/Early evening beginner stuff and I will teach intermediate and advanced.  This gives me a Black Belt teaching every class and lets me hit the 6-8am, 11-1pm, and 5-10pm markets without killing myself.
D) Have a Black Belt club because it can be a win-win I think.  I've only been "sold" one once.  I didn't sign up, but I learned what they were doing.  1. Big up front payment. 2. No or small test fees.  3. Smaller monthly payments.  4. You don't pay for lessons after your 4th or 5th year.  The odds are that if you train hard, you can get to Black in 4 or 5 yrs.  If not, then you are close and only a few people will fit this category and it should not cost you any money.  For high-turnover people who like to talk a big game and then quit, you get their money up front to invest in your livelihood and your studio... and in a way these "boneheads" are supporting the rest of the clientele.

If this theory works, then I should be able to maintain a "black belt training class" that produces 6 black belts/yr so I can rotate my guys out as they move on.  I think it would be good for me and them both if I had an instructor core meeting 4 times/week even for 30 mins and we just really trained with intense focus.  This doesn't happen at many schools I see. I see too many where the instructor apparently made 4th by his 30th birthday but you can not make it to 3rd in less than 20years.  How does that work anyway?

E) Hire a business manager or get a partner who finances and does the books... I think I know someone for this.  I teach, they count beans.  They may not even be in the school. I would also like to have a trained salesperson answering all the phone calls and visiting with people when I am on the mat.

I think that if this works I could be happy running a school. I don't know many people making a good living running a school, but I do know people who know other people clearing 10K/mo.  I am not in a position to get details on how this is done, but some of it is not entirely honorable.

I also would rely on NAPMA and the Cooper Institute for training/advice and certifications.  A primary aim of my school would be to get people in good physical condition and teach them to defend themselves.  I'm currently overweight but I don't plan to be much longer.  I have already lost 20lbs from my max weight.  I would want to be a good example of good health, good teaching and high-proficiency or I would not do it either.

I don't know if all this would work.  I will look closely into what is currently working so I don't have to re-invent the wheel but I am a year away from this for sure.

I think it should be possible to make a living.  I mean, if I end up doing 60% aerobics and nutritional counseling but still have a full-blown "real" Kenpo program available, I will look at it as having aerobics pay for the Kenpo.  

I also think that most successful schools have a LOT of kids and programs for them and I don't think Kenpo is geared to Kids.  Mr. Parker and Mr. Planas both seem to think this.

As you can probably tell, this is all theory.  But when I signed up I wanted to open a school.  Now I think it is a bad idea and I have formulated this theory to see if I can make it happen.  I really don't care if it does not work.  I think I could give this my best shot, after actually checking with NAPMA and real school owners and picking my instructor's brain etc, and if God wants it to work, then it will.  But I'm not interested in promoting anyone even to Yellow Belt if they don't know the material and can not use it properly no matter how much money is involved.  What is it?  "...my principles, or my honor..." ? 


I hope this comes out OK.  Feel free to contact me privately if you wish.  I'm compiling data on this topic already and I hope it may some day serve me well.  I am thinking that if I don't open a school I will "retire" because I'm not sure what there will be for me to do where I'm at.  I drive about 20 miles to get to class right now and I'd like to not have to do that.  It is about a 25min drive if I hit traffic right.

Thanks everyone.


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## Yari (May 15, 2002)

Let me use an answer my teacher used alot: "When your ready..."


A person that has the will to open and keep it open and can attrace people and keep them is ready to open a school.

It's alittle bit catch-22, but what I'm trying to say is it's all will power.

/Yari


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## CraneSpreadWings (Aug 18, 2002)

With Karate and Kenpo and JKD and TKD and even a lot of Kuo shu (CMA) there is at least a distinct grading system. sure, some schools will cheat, thats the nature of the dollar, but most 2nd Dan Black Belts out there, no matter what the art, shuold be able to teach the system and make some money at it if they are able...
What about Tai Chi, where the player/practitioner may study for years and years before understanding the breadth of this 20 minute form of movements??? Should one have working knowledge of martial applications and be a push hands monster or can one expect to teach folks after having only internalized the form and perfected it to a certain extent? In Tai Chi there typically is no distinct radin system other than what the Teacher determines on a personal basis. It really ends up being a subjective thing. I studied Yang 24 Taiji with a 75 year old Dutch woman who was teaching very slow, methodical movements to other Senior Citizens to get them moving in a healthy way--I'm not sure she would have known what Fa Jing meant-- I guess its all about-
1. What your Teacher says and when
2. What you want to do with the teaching ie martial, health, etc
3. How much money you want to make doing it

I'd like to teach Tai Chi one day because I love the s*** out of it and I feel I was born to it almost...But with Tai Chi a real teacher may keep you for 7-15 years before directly certifying you to teach the art...In the Chen Valley, Honan Province, they may keep you for 20 years before giving the lineage... I am considering starting a curriculum with another teacher who will move me along a bit faster in an External System just to get the certification...well, not just get certification- theres a world of great learning there that interests me and that Im good at, but I like Tai Chi more....

maybe one day this humble beginner will be able to humble other beginners!!!


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## CraneSpreadWings (Aug 18, 2002)

THat last post may have come off as a bit mercenary...I really am not that way about the teaching idea...if one is going to teach martial arts it should be for the love of the art and the honest desire to further the study of your art...but the ability to support oneself with ones hard earned (and well paid for) learning should not be forgotten as an aspect of serious study in any martial art...
except chang moo do or fake **** super boxing...


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