# Blocks or Parries



## Senin (Feb 10, 2007)

A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries.  You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry.  A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.

The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless.  Who the hell is fast enough to parry?  You don't see boxers parry.  You don't even see MMA;s parry.

Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing.  It's too damn defensive for a real fight.  What happens after the successful (rare) parry?  You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face?  Nah, he is already coming in again.  And again. And again.


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## Tarot (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> * Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing.*  It's too damn defensive for a real fight.  What happens after the successful (rare) parry?  You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face?  Nah, he is already coming in again.  And again. And again.



What a lovely thing to say about other schools.

Why is a successful parry rare?  Do you have statistics on parries?  Have there been some testing and research done on parries?

There are many things one can do after a parry, it doesn't have to be a punch.  There is more to self-defense and the arts than punching alone.


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## still learning (Feb 10, 2007)

Hello, Always keep an open mind, Martial arts techniques (many) will work for most times.  Blocking and parries have a purpose.  DUCKING works just as well, so is backing away.

NO two punches or strikes will always be the same. There will be times a block works...others times to just parry.  There is NO solid rules for engagements (techniques that you must DO?).  What works now, may not work tommorrw.

Study boxing and you will see blocks,parries,ducking,backing away,lots of movement.  Blocking,parries, are some of the ways to survive an attack. NOT THE ONLY WAY.

Your training may differ from others,as well as your thoughts on certain techniques to use to defend yourself.  

Blocking does work!  So does Parries!   Each has it's purpose,place and time for it to work for you.  ...Aloha

-------------------

We love BLOCK parties,  we love chinese DUCK, and we always back up in REVERSE.  (an open mind is a head that was not blocked)


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## exile (Feb 10, 2007)

A parry doesn't have to be a move distinct from a strike. If someone throws a righthand roundhouse at your heada very common kind of untrained attackand you turn 90º so your right shoulder is facing their centerline, use a righthand `inward block' to `parry' by using the `block' to strike their upper arm just below the shoulder and then, from your position very close to them at this point, use your conveniently chambered right hand to strike their throat under their jaw, then sure, you've parried their strike, but you've also positioned yourself for a finishing strike, or a setup for a finishing strike. This is a realistic interpretation of kata/poomsae sequences in which an inward `block' is followed by a `middle knifehand block'. The first block is a parry/strike and the second is a straight strike, and bingoyou walk and he doesn't.

If you think of all blocks as having this kind of versatility, combinable in different ways to yield different counterattacking scenarios, then you can add a whole new dimension to your fighting art...


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## MattJ (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin - 

Still learning nails it. This is not an either/or question. Blocks work well, and so do parries. Your description of a parry is, in fact, my description of a block. Anything that meets the incoming strike at a perpendicular angle with force is a block. Anything that meets the incoming strike at a more parallel angle with less force is a parry.

You are right that parries are not the best choice against a flurry of haymakers, but that is far from the only kind of attack there is.


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## jks9199 (Feb 10, 2007)

The definition of a block or parry will change with different arts and instructors.  When I say "block", I mean a motion designed and intended to STOP the incoming attack (not necessarily stop dead on your block, but meeting force on force), damage the weapon, and create opportunities for counterattacking.  "Parry" means a motion designed to redirect the incoming attack, and allow a counterattacks.  They are often interchangeable in practice, but not always.  (It's almost impossible to trap a limb you've blocked, for example.)  You'll often find that a technique or kata taught at a beginner level with a simple block (say the classic full step, upward block, reverse punch combination) can be done equally well with an appropriate parry by more advanced students.  That doesn't mean the first way (with the block) is now wrong, or "too defensive" -- it's just another way of applying the underlying principle (step in, stop the attack, and counterattack).

But both are very practical and very applicable to a real fight; I've done both with people fighting me for real.  To say that a technique that's been passed down for generations and exists in multiple martial arts is "teaching losing" is making an incredibly huge leap...  You say parries are "too defensive."  What if that parry is used as you're stepping in and striking?  (Open your eyes and watch a good boxing match...  Maybe one of Ali's...  I bet you see some parries.)


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.
> 
> The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.
> 
> Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.


The angle of incidence is the only thing seperating a block from a parry physically; mentaly, your instructor may be on to something, but he just threw out the baby with the bathwater.
Sean


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## Senin (Feb 10, 2007)

I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding.  Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.

For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology).  The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch.  You don't really see parrying in boxing.  i hope I am not mixing my terms too much.  Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch.  Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed.  But not usually in real life.  Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving.  But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.


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## SFC JeffJ (Feb 10, 2007)

A lot of what I've been taught, especially the past couple of years, is what is called a block or a parry, really isn't.  I've been, to great effect even in a couple of "street" situations, training where the "prep" to the technique deflects the incoming attack and the block or parry is is actually the strike.  Makes those preps really useful.

Jeff


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## morph4me (Feb 10, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> The definition of a block or parry will change with different arts and instructors. When I say "block", I mean a motion designed and intended to STOP the incoming attack (not necessarily stop dead on your block, but meeting force on force), damage the weapon, and create opportunities for counterattacking. "Parry" means a motion designed to redirect the incoming attack, and allow a counterattacks.
> But both are very practical and very applicable to a real fight; I've done both with people fighting me for real.


 
This is how I define parrying and blocking. Parrying is also used to unbalance the attacker, because his attack doesn't land where he expected it to and he's usually not ready for that.


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## jks9199 (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding.  Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.
> 
> For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology).  The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch.  You don't really see parrying in boxing.  i hope I am not mixing my terms too much.  Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch.  Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed.  But not usually in real life.  Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving.  But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.



You insist on starting from a bad premise, namely that parries don't work.  And you're assuming that boxing is an adequate representation of a real fight...  (That's a whole 'nother thread!)

Research boxing a little...  You'll find that there are actually blocks and parries in boxing.  They don't stand out for several reasons (very restricted targets involved, movement that accompanies them, lack of appreciation for counterfighting currently, are just a few of them) -- but they are there.

You're assuming that people aren't fast enough to parry an incoming punch.  Someone must have been -- or the techniques wouldn't exist in martial training.

I suspect that part of your problem is some common poor training habits.  Very few people ever really learn to work properly with a partner; they learn to pound a bag, they learn to "spar" or "rock-n-roll" or "thump", they learn kata or shadowboxing...  But they never learn to work WITH a partner to develop a technique.  I'll use a simple outward parry, since that's the topic, to explain.  I think most of us can picture fighting left foot forward, and using the lead (left) hand in an outward/counter-clockwise circle to contact and redirect a right hand punch from our partner, then following up with a right hand punch.  (Choose your own footwork -- but use some!)  How do we go about learning this?

First, practice the motions in the air, no opponent.  Figure out your balance, where your hands need to be, how deep you think you need to step and so on.  (This is just kata training or shadowboxing in disguise.)  Then... grab your partner.  Set up at a REALISTIC range (this is vital!), and assign your roles.  (He's punching, your parrying.)

The first few times -- your partner's throwing the punch easy, maybe half speed or less, with plenty of warning, maybe even on a command.  You're shifting it off effortlessly because he's not making it hard for you.  You ARE finding out how you have to step around him, about when you have to move to parry the hand and be in position to strike, and so on.  One catch... YOU can't go full speed when your partner's going half speed. Y'gotta both play at the same pace!

After a bit (how long depends on your skill and how fast you're picking things up) -- your partner starts to pick up the speed and intensity.  Now it's not so easy to move him and he's not giving you as much notice.  It's getting trickier... but stick with it.  Don't cheat the technique, and keep your speeds the same.  With more practice, pick up the speed even more.

Finally, your partner is going almost full speed (or even full speed if your skill levels are there), no notice, and even varying the attack or the target he's punching at.  And you're going just as fast...  I bet you find out that you can parry a strike.  

Lots of people are lousy partners; they don't throw good strikes or they make it too easy (or too hard!) for the person they're training with.  They move at full speed when attacked at half, or they move at half when attacked at full.  If you're feeding the technique, your job is to throw a good, effective strike that your partner MUST block/parry/trap or otherwise respond correctly to, or they get hit.  (With good control, they shouldn't usually be hurt, though it remains a possibility.)  If you're practicing the technique -- your job is to do THAT technique, not something else, not something that "works" or "feels right" and to match your partner's speed.


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## MJS (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.
> 
> The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.
> 
> Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.


 
So, let me see if I'm understanding this.

1) Your teacher finds no use in parries, so he is assuming that nobody else will either?

2) Rather than experimenting and seeing if they will work for you, you're just going to dismiss them?

3) You're both assuming that nobody is fast enough to parry?

4) You insult other schools that teach parries.  Have you seen every school that teaches them?

5) Because you don't see it in MMA, that means that its no good?

6) You're assuming that a parry is strictly just for defense?

Parries are in fact a very usefull tool.  The FMAs use them quite a bit and with much success.  Gunting or limb destruction is often done off of a parry.  I've used them in sparring with success, I've used them when doing SD techs. and have had quite a bit of luck, and I've used them successfully off of a push.  Something else to keep in mind...a parry, just like anything else, is a tool that we have available to us.  Will a parry always be the best tool?  No, but as I said above, I'm not going to throw it out because someone else may not be able to make it work.  Before you discount something because someone else says it wont work, it may be a good idea to work with someone who does. 

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> I think often times it is the terms that we use that gets in the way of explaining or understanding. Unfortunately, I say parry, you say block (or visa versa) and are meanings get mixed.
> 
> For example, in a boxing match, you would rarely (if ever) see a boxer use a box/parry (in for example the karate termonology). The closest thing a boxer uses to a parry (other that just putting his arms up to let the opponet hit his forearms) or would be another punch. You don't really see parrying in boxing. i hope I am not mixing my terms too much. Basically, humans are rarely fast enough to parry a real in-coming punch. Oh, in the dojo, we are plenty fast-- often because the punch is at half speed. But not usually in real life. Now that is not to say, I am against side-stepping or moving. But to parry, parry, parry, seems to be a losing proposition.


 
I'm confused.  You state a human isn't fast enough to parry, but they're fast enough to block?  What do you suggest people use to block a punch?  If the hands are up, executing a parry is actually quite easy.  You also state that in the dojo its easy because the punch is coming half speed.  Actually, when I'm in the dojo, we progressively increase the punching speed.  Sure we start off slow, but in the end, that punch is coming and if we don't move off line, block or parry, we're getting hit.  Your last paragraph, you state "Parry, parry, parry."  To me, this sounds completely defensive.  Sure, if thats all someone is doing, yes, I'd say that doesn't make sense, but a parry with a simultaneous counter strike is very effective.

Mike


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## 351C (Feb 10, 2007)

Darn, parries don't work? Guess I'll just have to quit Hap Ki Do. All those locks and arm bars Im learning to do after a parry must not really work. In fact most of Hap Ki Do must be flawed. So I guess the best thing to do is stand there, shield youself as best you can and take a hit. I'm just a beginner but obviously I disagree a little bit.


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## Senin (Feb 10, 2007)

MJS said:


> So, let me see if I'm understanding this.
> 
> 1) Your teacher finds no use in parries, so he is assuming that nobody else will either?
> 
> ...


 
Hi Mike,
I think you may have misunderstood me.
1- No, I don't think parries are useless. They may have value. If an oppenent is moving slowly.
2- Oh, I have experimented with them. I have used them practice of various martial arts. Not very practical.
3- Nope. I am not say NOBODY is fast enough to use them. I am sure Bruce Lee was probably fast enough to use 'em. And there are extraordinary people in all walks of life.
4- Sorry to insult those schools. No, I have not visited every martial arts school in the world.
5- No, it is not just because you don't seem them in MMA. You don't really seem them in boxing either. And, you rarely seem them (used successfully) in real fights-- unless the oppenent is really slow. For example, one might be able to use them against a drunk, or a older person.
6- Yeah.

And by block, I mean as when a boxer has his arms up and an oppent punches landing on the boxers forearms.


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## MJS (Feb 10, 2007)

Senin said:


> Hi Mike,
> I think you may have misunderstood me.
> 1- No, I don't think parries are useless. They may have value. If an oppenent is moving slowly.


 
I disagree. I get the impression that you didn't have much luck with them, so you're discounting their effectiveness. My point is, is that you shouldn't assume that they're ineffective because you can make them work. Apparently, looking at the replies here, I'm not the only one that a) has had success with them, and b) finds use in them.




> 2- Oh, I have experimented with them. I have used them practice of various martial arts. Not very practical.


 
Can you expand on this a bit more? Again, as I said above, you're discarding them because you havent had luck. Perhaps if someone was to show the finer points of them, maybe you'd view them differently, then again, maybe not.




> 3- Nope. I am not say NOBODY is fast enough to use them. I am sure Bruce Lee was probably fast enough to use 'em. And there are extraordinary people in all walks of life.


 
So unless someone is as fast as Bruce, nobody can use them?





> 4- Sorry to insult those schools. No, I have not visited every martial arts school in the world.


 
So, perhaps if you were to visit a school with someone who could show you the value in them, you'd view them differently.




> 5- No, it is not just because you don't seem them in MMA. You don't really seem them in boxing either. And, you rarely seem them (used successfully) in real fights-- unless the oppenent is really slow. For example, one might be able to use them against a drunk, or a older person.


 
I beg to differ.
http://www.how-to-box.com/boxing/boxing_defense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxing




> 6- Yeah.


 
Yes, a parry is a defensive move, however, upon parrying the incoming punch, a counter strike is launched.



> And by block, I mean as when a boxer has his arms up and an oppent punches landing on the boxers forearms.


 
So, you're saying that this is how you want to defend punches? By letting them pound away at your arms? Sure, during sparring sessions, I've absorbed hits on my arms. However, its eventually going to start taking a toll. Also keep in mind that the padding on the gloves takes away some of the impact.

Mike


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## Senin (Feb 11, 2007)

Hi Mike,

I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing.  I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).

You know, when I first took karate lessons as a kid I was taught "up block, up block, cross block, cross block, down block, down block" plus a few others.  Those blocks were actually parries.  Mostly useless in real fighting.  Why were they taught?  Because karate was watered down after WW2.  (plus the fact that the samurai used to fight in armor, in which a block might have worked).

If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed).  Please show me where these parries actually work elsewhere.

So, if I am in a fight, and I can't dodge the hit, and I have to take it somewhere, yeah, the forearms aren't bad.  Bone and muscle.  Odds are, he will hurt his hands before he hurts my forearms.  And, I am not going to stand and take it, there will be retaliation.

Thanks for the discourse.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 11, 2007)

If we are saying that a block is some thing that stops the attack at the point where the two body parts meet and a parry is some thing that dose not stop the attack but rather moves the attack to a different position from its intended destination, then I must say that parries do work. 
it is sometimes much easier to redirect (even a little) an attack than it is to stop it dead in its tracks especially if you are much smaller and weaker than your opponent


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## Bigshadow (Feb 11, 2007)

IMO, if someone is fast enough to block, or fast enough to slip, or get out of the way of the punch, IS certainly fast enough to parry it.  However, I believe parrying requires better self control than getting out of the way or blocking.

IMO not only are parries useful, I believe they are down right indespensible in the overall toolbox of abilities.


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## bydand (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:


> I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing.  I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).



Does this mean you train to approach an encounter with your own arms hanging at your sides?  I would hope not, they should be up as well.  Wow, already most of the way to a parry/block, so the argument of being quicker is gone.




> You know, when I first took karate lessons as a kid I was taught "up block, up block, cross block, cross block, down block, down block" plus a few others.  Those blocks were actually parries.  Mostly useless in real fighting.  Why were they taught?  Because karate was watered down after WW2.  (plus the fact that the samurai used to fight in armor, in which a block might have worked).
> 
> If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed).  Please show me where these parries actually work elsewhere.
> 
> ...




Quick question first then on to my thoughts.
Did you start this thread just to argue?  You had to have known what the general response would be. 

My thoughts: They are not the "be all- end all"  but they are very useful.  No I'm not lightening quick, yes they work.  
As for showing you where they work outside of the dojo, I personally don't cart around a video camera and somebody to run it 24/7, and if I did, I still wouldn't post those types of clips.  You still wouldn't believe it anyway.  
Can I prove to you they work?  Nope.  
Do I care?  Nope.

As long as you are comfortable with the training and your instructor, that is what matters, not what others you don't know think.  But, the other side of the coin is the fact you are not going to convince those of us who kknow they are useful and good otherwise either.


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## exile (Feb 11, 2007)

SFC JeffJ said:


> A lot of what I've been taught, especially the past couple of years, is what is called a block or a parry, really isn't.  I've been, to great effect even in a couple of "street" situations, training where the "prep" to the technique deflects the incoming attack and the block or parry is is actually the strike.  Makes those preps really useful.
> 
> Jeff





bydand said:


> Does this mean you train to approach an encounter with your own arms hanging at your sides?  I would hope not, they should be up as well.  Wow, already most of the way to a parry/block, so the argument of being quicker is gone....
> 
> My thoughts: They are not the "be all- end all"  but they are very useful.  No I'm not lightening quick, yes they work.
> As for showing you where they work outside of the dojo, I personally don't cart around a video camera and somebody to run it 24/7, and if I did, I still wouldn't post those types of clips.  You still wouldn't believe it anyway.
> ...



Senin, I want to underscore what Jeff and Scott are saying here and maybe amplify their points a bit, because from what you write I think you have an idea of what a block/parry is which doesn't match up very well with the experience of the other posters on this thread. I can't tell from you profile how much time you've spent in the MAs, what kind of Budo you pursue or what your training experience has been like. But it's pretty clear to anyone who's thought hard about the relationship between MA _movements_ on the one hand (motions of various parts of the body in descriptions of combat techniques) and the actual _moves_ those motions correspond to on the other (actual applications and _use_ of the movements in question) that the names of movements and their actual combat use are quite different. A `block' is virtually never a block, with you just standing there, trying to react fast enough to what some guy is throwing at your head. It's almost always a deflection of a strike that you've already moved out of the way of. In the scenario I described to you very early in this thread, the key to not getting hit is turning 90º to the attackers _inside_; that is going to be a lot quicker, as a movement, than standing square on to him and just using your arms in an effort to keep the blow from landing. But your goal isn't not getting hit; it's incapacitating your assailant tot he point where he withdraws from the fight (volunarily or not). So you must combine your movement inside with a way of grabbing the initiative, right? And since he's already commited to the punch, once you've made the quick (and largely _instinctive_) movement to move to his inside by turning your right side to him, you have, relatively speaking, a lot of time to counter his attack so decisively that you can finish him.

Jeff's point about how to break a supposedly defensive move down into parts that show its largely attacking potential comes in here. What he says about the role of the `prep' partthat if you understand it right, it's actually the deflecting component, and the so-called blocking motion is actually the nearly immediate _attacking_ component that the prep sets upis exactly on target. Karateka like Bill Burgar and Iain Abernethy, and TKDists like Simon O'Neil, have been stressing this for years: in most `blocks' (the name of the movement), the so-called `chambering' part (the name of the submovement) is actually the deflectionwith a double knifehand block, for example, once you've turned to the assailant's inside, left hand/arm movement back is the deflection, but the simultaneous right hand/arm back strikes vital points on the assailan't upper arm, triggering a physically instinctive turning of his head and shoulders away from you. Your next movementthe actual `block'involves your right hand striking his face on the side, and your left hand striking his neck or throat immediately after that. Muchimi tech followups should guide your conversion of the strike into a hair or ear grap, say, with a low hard sidekick to the _side_of his knee, damaging the joint, possibly severely, or an hard elbow strike with your right elbow back to his immobilized face, and so on. These are just basic realistic apps of standard karate/TKD `block' interpretations, illustrated in e.g. Burgar's book in detail. 

As Scott points out, just having your hands up and your arms in a basic `fence'-type position is most of the `parry' right there. Turning away from a punch is something that you can do a lot quicker than your assailant can throw the puncheven at CQs, look at the difference in the distances involved! If you train for that kind of movement (or the mirror image in response to a grap to one side, where you can quickly and effectively turn to the assailant's _outside_)as I would expect you to be doing; this is just Realistic MA Techs 101, no?your simultaneous deflection/strike sequence will take the steam out of even a very worked-up attacker. You have to train this kind of response, sure, but again, a lot of it is instinctive response. And as Scott also says, lightning-quick speed isn't required. These arts were designed for civilian use against common civilian attacks. Most people not only aren't as quick as Bruce Lee, they never were at any time in history. So how did these arts survive over centuries if they actually demanded that kind of speed? 

I think what people are showing in their responses to you is a kind of puzzlement that this kind of very basic technical element in your MA training seems to be... missing. In my TKD school, this is the sort of stuff that green belts learn. Is it that your instructors haven't shown you this way of utilizing technical resources from the MA toolkit?


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 11, 2007)

Both can work applied correctly.


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## MJS (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing. I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).


 
And like I said, in a boxing ring, with the fighters wearing padded gloves, the majority of the impact is cushioned by the gloves.  Are you honestly saying in a real fight you want to consistantly take shots on the arms??  Good luck dude.



> You know, when I first took karate lessons as a kid I was taught "up block, up block, cross block, cross block, down block, down block" plus a few others. Those blocks were actually parries. Mostly useless in real fighting. Why were they taught? Because karate was watered down after WW2. (plus the fact that the samurai used to fight in armor, in which a block might have worked).


 
Again, you're seriously confusing the parry with a block.  A parry is done with the hand, usually open.  A block, such as you describe above, is done with the hand usually closed, and the blocking portion is the forearm area.  If you want to keep thinking they're useless, thats fine.  Apparently you're keeping the blinders on and not looking outside the box.



> If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed). Please show me where these parries actually work elsewhere.


 
I disagree.  If the hands are up, where they should be, a parry is very easy to execute.  As I said earlier, it seems that you have not had the chance to work parries with someone who can show you their effectiveness, so you keep disregarding them.  It also seems like you're grasping at straws as well.  In your initial post you stated that they were not used in boxing.  You were proved wrong.  I've told you how they can be used.  If you fail to see it, thats out of my control.



> So, if I am in a fight, and I can't dodge the hit, and I have to take it somewhere, yeah, the forearms aren't bad. Bone and muscle. Odds are, he will hurt his hands before he hurts my forearms. And, I am not going to stand and take it, there will be retaliation.
> 
> Thanks for the discourse.


 
By doing what you're suggesting, you're seriously putting yourself on the defense.  Perhaps you can explain, seeing that you feel you have a better defense, exactly how you do your blocks?

Mike


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## Danny T (Feb 11, 2007)

If that punch movement was not a punch but a thrust with a knife would you "parry" or "block" taking the thrust in the arms or body? Good luck!

Danny T


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## MJS (Feb 11, 2007)

bydand said:


> Does this mean you train to approach an encounter with your own arms hanging at your sides? I would hope not, they should be up as well. Wow, already most of the way to a parry/block, so the argument of being quicker is gone.


 
This is what I said.  Apparently he's not seeing it.





> Quick question first then on to my thoughts.
> Did you start this thread just to argue? You had to have known what the general response would be.


 
Most likely.




> As long as you are comfortable with the training and your instructor, that is what matters, not what others you don't know think. But, the other side of the coin is the fact you are not going to convince those of us who kknow they are useful and good otherwise either.


 
Well, like I said earlier, alot of it comes down to having the right person to show you something.  It always amazes me, how people can view someone else, see them not having success, and assume that they won't either and that the tech. or move in question is totally useless.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:


> Hi Mike,
> 
> I think we might be walking a fine line hear with the parry/blocking thing.  I will concede that a boxer may flinch outward when taking a punch, but pretty much he has his arms in and takes the punch on his forearms (if he cannot get out of the way).
> 
> ...



How about providing your own definition for a block and parry?  I gave one; a block is meeting the attack force on force, with the dual intent to deflect/stop the attack and harm the weapon, while a parry is intended to redirect, not stop, the attack to allow for counterattack.  So far, all you've done is say "what you think are blocks are really parries and they don't work."  The closest I've seen to a definition is that you seem to suggest that anything that doesn't stop the attack cold, limb on limb, is a parry.  I disagree with that; a solid block is likely to deflect the attacking limb, and unbalance your opponent.  After all, if it didn't deflect that punch or kick... you'd never be able to lower the block until your opponent gave up!


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## Flatlander (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:
			
		

> If a parry works, it is because the defender is incredibly faster than the opponent or pure stupid luck (or it is a school where the fight is choreographed).


If _anything_ works, it's because the person applying technique is faster/better/etc.  Not just the parry....

Which is easier, the parry or the counterpunch?  Which is faster, the parry or the counterpunch?  Also, who ever suggested that the parry isn't part of the counterpunch?

Perhaps, rather than viewing the parry, or block, or whatever label you want to use, as a stand alone technique, you might consider viewing it as a piece of something else....

Speaking of Bruce Lee, are you familiar with the concept of Lin Sil Die Dar?  This is the simultaneous defence and attack.  There are a number of techniques that qualify as being Lin Sil Die Dar, and many of them include a parrying element.

Honestly, I just don't care for such blanket statements as "<insert technique here> doesn't work, and therefore is a waste of everyone's time."   This is not only a hasty generalization, but also an indication of a lack of research and experience.  Anything _can _work, the appropriate conditions need only be presented.  

That said, my position here is that the parry is perhaps the most effective method of not getting hit.  Also, I don't think I'd be the guy putting my forearms in the way to block an incoming knife thrust.  Reckon I'd be parrying, there.....  However, it's tough to parry effectively when one doesn't train the parry because one unjustifiably believes the parry to be of no value....


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## Senin (Feb 11, 2007)

There is a lot to respond to so forgive me for not answering all quesitons.

The most striking (lol) was the point about the knife.  That, my friends, is a whole new kettle of fish.  And if one is up against a knife attack, he is real danger.  Unfortunately, lots of martial arts schools teach this parry-then attack knife defense (which isn't bad because you can't block a knife like you would a punch).  But it leads a lot of people to the dangerous misunderstanding that a knife attack can be easily handled.... and it's not something to misled about.  

Here is the bottom line..... reaction time.  Ofcourse in a fight, you hands will be up and ready.  And you will be moving instead of static.  When an opponent throws a punch, you have to react (and reaction time is a biggie)............. thus, you have to be faster than his punch.  A parry is much large movement then the boxer forearm block.  So put simply, he moves, you have to react to his movement, and to parry, you must executed a larger movement (than the forearm block).

I came across this on youtube.  It shows the mean of full-speed, full force.




 
I know how it is. Alot of martial arts schools teach that parrying stuff so they have a real stake in its existance.  Rarely works in a real fight.  And the training in a dojo is not the real world.


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## exile (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:


> Here is the bottom line..... reaction time.  Ofcourse in a fight, you hands will be up and ready.  And you will be moving instead of static.  When an opponent throws a punch, you have to react (and reaction time is a biggie)............. thus, you have to be faster than his punch.  A parry is much large movement then the boxer forearm block.  So put simply, he moves, you have to react to his movement, and to parry, you must executed a larger movement (than the forearm block).



Um... have you actually read any of the preceding posts carefully, Senin? Because if you had, you would have noticed that the point of at least of a couple of them was that following in up

_When an opponent throws a punch, you have to react (and reaction time is a biggie)............. thus, you have to be faster than his punch._

with

_and to parry, you must executed a larger movement (than the forearm block)_

is committing a non sequitor. You have to be faster than his punch, but to avoid his punch, you only need to carry out a relatively _small_ movement to his inside or his outside, and in _towards_ him. From that position, you are relatively speaking in no rush, because your out of the line of his attack, and your parry (= setup for your own attack) requires much less body movement than the original punch does. Repeat: you don't race his punch with your parry; you step out of the way, in toward him, and use the parry to unbalance him, to set up a series of hard strikes, joint locks or partial throws, and then a finishing strike (if your art is striking-based). You don't seem to want to understand this almost routine aspect of MA technique. 

Once again: you do not stand there flat-footed and try to race his punch. You can, and should, be well out of the way of his punch at the moment you launch your parry as the first step towards disabling him. There is an enormous current literature on realistic karate/TKD application; if would save you, and everyone else, a great deal of time if you did a little basic investigation of this point before insisting on the necessity of a scenario that no one with a reasonable amount of practical training takes even a little bit seriously.



Senin said:


> I know how it is. Alot of martial arts schools teach that parrying stuff so they have a real stake in its existance.  Rarely works in a real fight.  And the training in a dojo is not the real world.



No, you don't know how it is. Good martial arts schools teach parrying/striking along the lines I indicated because it is precisely this kind of technique that works against untrained but violent aggressors. And the training in a dojo, if it's a good dojo, can get at just the skills you need to develop to defend yourself in the real world.

I'd suggest becoming a little bit more familiar with the enormous work on practical combat applications of MA techs that has been done during the past ten years before you send more posts that make your _un_familiarity with that work so evident...


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## bydand (Feb 11, 2007)

I cannot speak for anybody else here, but I never even hinted that I was talking about training in the dojo as being real world.  As for the video you linked to, what do you think his hands being up and into the shoulder when the big guy with the knife takes a "full speed - full force" swipe at him is doing? Checking the material of his shirt?  Nope he is parrying the force away in order to gain an opening and a "moment in time" to strike.  A parry or block isn't always directed at the other persons hands or feet.  I am fully convinced you are here to stir up an argument now.  And no you don't have to be faster than the other persons punch even with hands up already.  I can move a couple of inches (which is all that is needed to avoid and parry/block) including reaction time, faster than somebody can fill that distance with a swing.  Training hall or Dojo lesson speaking there?  Nope; bar brawls and street fights speaking there.  I can't help thinking this is turning into another dead horse thread.  You blindly maintaining they suck and the everybody else knowing they actually work.  

Good luck in your training (no sarcasm, but honestly wishing that for you.)  Hopefully I'll read some of your other posts later that make a bit of sense, but I'm out of this one before I just get tired of it and ding you for lame arguments.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2007)

Senin said:


> There is a lot to respond to so forgive me for not answering all quesitons.
> 
> The most striking (lol) was the point about the knife.  That, my friends, is a whole new kettle of fish.  And if one is up against a knife attack, he is real danger.  Unfortunately, lots of martial arts schools teach this parry-then attack knife defense (which isn't bad because you can't block a knife like you would a punch).  But it leads a lot of people to the dangerous misunderstanding that a knife attack can be easily handled.... and it's not something to misled about.
> 
> ...



Ok... First... You don't think a fist is "real danger?!":erg:  I could dig up some statistics about people beaten to death by unarmed assailants who, I guess, weren't in "real danger."  ANYBODY attacking you with ANYTHING is a REAL danger.  Any other mentality is inviting injury -- if you're lucky.

You want to talk about reaction time?  With rare exceptions, most of us don't have the reaction time to go from what Cooper called "condition white" (unalert & unaware) to "red" (engaged in combat) and successfully defend themselves from the initial attack -- especially since a real attacker is going to be optimizing surprise.  They're going to look for the opportunity to catch you in condition white, not in orange or even red.  They want you to jump from white to black (panic).

How do you solve that problem?  PRACTICE.  In a realistic manner, at realistic speeds, designed to ingrain correct reactions in your reflexes instead of conscious thought.  

How is a parry going to work for real?  You'll perceive the attack, your body will move, and all those hours of dedicated practice will draw it out of your muscles.  You likely won't realize what's happening.  As Bruce Lee once said ... "IT" happens.

You're making claims and assumptions about reality, and about training...  Maybe you need to back your authority up with something about yourself, not just quoting or misquoting your instructor.  I'm a cop.  I've been there, done that, and had people try to do it to me.  I've been lucky; nobody's tried to knife me or shoot me.  But I've had more than a few fight me.  I've gone hands on for real...  And I don't consider myself an "expert."  I can name at least a dozen people without trying that are more skilled and more experienced than I am.  Beyond that... I've boxed.  I've kickboxed.  I've even wrestled.


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## Senin (Feb 12, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Ok... First... You don't think a fist is "real danger?!":erg: I could dig up some statistics about people beaten to death by unarmed assailants who, I guess, weren't in "real danger." ANYBODY attacking you with ANYTHING is a REAL danger. Any other mentality is inviting injury -- if you're lucky.
> 
> You want to talk about reaction time? With rare exceptions, most of us don't have the reaction time to go from what Cooper called "condition white" (unalert & unaware) to "red" (engaged in combat) and successfully defend themselves from the initial attack -- especially since a real attacker is going to be optimizing surprise. They're going to look for the opportunity to catch you in condition white, not in orange or even red. They want you to jump from white to black (panic).
> 
> ...


 
Fine, then you know.  I have been there too.  And a lot of it is about reaction time.  He strikes (and let me tell ya, a jab could be 12" away or shorter), then your brain has to tell ya, hey a punch is coming, then your brain has to say "defense" (hopefully you have drilled enough so your movement is automatic, if not you are really in crap), then you have to actually move.  Some of you guys (dojo martial artists) are telling me parrying is a vialble option.  Get real.  Move, duck cover, throw up your arm for defense if you can, and take offense.... punch and kick....... and it's on.  

So, you have proven my point............ most of us just don't have the reaction time.  That's why boxing matches and MMA fights don't look like it does in the dojo.  You will seldom fing a parry.  Don't let these stripmall dojos fool ya, a real fight aint what it is on the mat.

By the way, did I say a fist wasn't a real danger.  But, I would rather be attacked by fists than a knife.  Or, somebody who knew what he was doing and a knuckle to the throat.

To you others, go ahead and parry, parry, parry.  I wish I find you guys in my next fight.


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## exile (Feb 12, 2007)

Folks, I strongly suggest that you don't bother, at this point. Why throw good money after bad?


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2007)

Senin said:


> There is a lot to respond to so forgive me for not answering all quesitons.
> 
> The most striking (lol) was the point about the knife. That, my friends, is a whole new kettle of fish. And if one is up against a knife attack, he is real danger. Unfortunately, lots of martial arts schools teach this parry-then attack knife defense (which isn't bad because you can't block a knife like you would a punch). But it leads a lot of people to the dangerous misunderstanding that a knife attack can be easily handled.... and it's not something to misled about.
> 
> ...


 
I've seen this clip before. Rich teaches some very good stuff. There is actually a pretty article on him in the Mar. 07 issue of Black Belt. Anyway...back to the topic. 

If you notice in the clip, the Krav Maga guys have their standard knife defense, which as Rich showed, was staying pretty stationary, pushing their butt out, so it looks as if they're leaning and off balance. Now, watch how Rich moved right in. Big difference right? You state that a parry is a big movement. I disagree. A parry, just like a block, only has to move far enough to redirect the incoming strike. Overblocking can do more harm than good. As we've said countless times already, if the hands are already up, which I'd imagine they would be, a parry is a simple quick move. 

You also seem to be under this misunderstanding that the person doing the block or parry is going to be stationary. Wrong! When I parry, I'm also moving. Watch a boxer, as you like to point out. Many times, they're just standing there, taking the shots. This is the same as what the KM guy was doing when he was doing his knife defense. What did Rich do? He moved!

This..



> I know how it is. Alot of martial arts schools teach that parrying stuff so they have a real stake in its existance. Rarely works in a real fight. And the training in a dojo is not the real world


 
brings up something else.  You know how it is??  Really?  So, like I asked before, you've seen every MA school in the world?  You've seen how everyone trains?  What you've seen should not be the basis for what everyone is doing, yet, you're here, making comments like that??

There have been many times that I've talked with people and had the same attitude as you.  That wont work, blah, blah, blah.  Funny how 9 times out of 10, I was proved wrong.  Ever stop to think that the first time you saw something, it was shown poorly?  What about working with someone else that knows how to make it work.  See what I'm saying.

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2007)

exile said:


> you don't race his punch with your parry; you step out of the way, in toward him, and use the parry to unbalance him, to set up a series of hard strikes, joint locks or partial throws, and then a finishing strike (if your art is striking-based). You don't seem to want to understand this almost routine aspect of MA technique.


 

Thank you!!:ultracool :ultracool   2 thumbs up for this comment!!!  If I could rep you for this I would, but I gotta spread it around a bit.


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Ok... First... You don't think a fist is "real danger?!":erg: I could dig up some statistics about people beaten to death by unarmed assailants who, I guess, weren't in "real danger." ANYBODY attacking you with ANYTHING is a REAL danger. Any other mentality is inviting injury -- if you're lucky.
> 
> You want to talk about reaction time? With rare exceptions, most of us don't have the reaction time to go from what Cooper called "condition white" (unalert & unaware) to "red" (engaged in combat) and successfully defend themselves from the initial attack -- especially since a real attacker is going to be optimizing surprise. They're going to look for the opportunity to catch you in condition white, not in orange or even red. They want you to jump from white to black (panic).
> 
> ...


 
Great points!  This is the idea of drilling and practicing over and over and over and over.  There has been many times when I've been working with my instructor and he breaks the 'pattern' of things, and without even thinking, I've just adapted to what he did.  No hesitation, no "oh wait, what do I do?"  I'm no Master by any means, but it just goes to show what can be done with hard work and practice!! 



> You're making claims and assumptions about reality, and about training... Maybe you need to back your authority up with something about yourself, not just quoting or misquoting your instructor.


 
Yes, I'd like to hear that as well.




> I'm a cop. I've been there, done that, and had people try to do it to me. I've been lucky; nobody's tried to knife me or shoot me. But I've had more than a few fight me. I've gone hands on for real... And I don't consider myself an "expert." I can name at least a dozen people without trying that are more skilled and more experienced than I am. Beyond that... I've boxed. I've kickboxed. I've even wrestled.


 
Well, like I always say, its nice to hear from people who put their life on the line everyday.:asian: 

Mike


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2007)

Senin said:


> So, you have proven my point............ most of us just don't have the reaction time. That's why boxing matches and MMA fights don't look like it does in the dojo. You will seldom fing a parry. Don't let these stripmall dojos fool ya, a real fight aint what it is on the mat.


 
Did you read what he said???  In case you missed it, let me post it again:



> You want to talk about reaction time? With rare exceptions, most of us don't have the reaction time to go from what Cooper called "condition white" (unalert & unaware) to "red" (engaged in combat) and successfully defend themselves from the initial attack -- especially since a real attacker is going to be optimizing surprise. They're going to look for the opportunity to catch you in condition white, not in orange or even red. They want you to jump from white to black (panic).


 
I don't know about you, but I personally feel that there are some that are more aware than others.  Whenever I'm out, I'm aware of whats going on around me.  I'm not like some people that I see walking around, that are so distracted with a cell phone conversation or just with their head in the clouds in general, that they don't see whats around them.  Again, you're assuming that everyone is the same.  You do alot of preaching, but I've yet to see much from you backing up what you say.  You see one thing, and you think that everyone is the same.  Scenario drills are a big tool in working on what I just copied above.




> To you others, go ahead and parry, parry, parry.* I wish I find you guys in my next fight.*


 
I hope thats not a challenge.  You may want to read this. And more specifically, this part:


No "Challenges" - If there is a threat or physical challenge, real or perceived, issued, the person making said threat will be immediately banned from this board with no warning or recourse.


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## Brandon Fisher (Feb 12, 2007)

Senin,
Being alert at all times is key here.  Being able to read a situation is the ultimate solution to self defense but thats not easy most people don't do that.  But I take offense to strip mall dojo comment.  I have been in real fights and I teach my students in that manner.  But everyone has to start somewhere and somewhere is normally at the beginning or the basics.  Now you seem to know all about real fights have you been in one?  Have you been attacked by a nut that was strung out on drugs or some nut that had a knife?  I have and let me tell you its unblieveablely scary, enough to make you want to wet yourself but keeping my composure is what got me out of it.


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## Adept (Feb 12, 2007)

Senin said:


> So, you have proven my point............ most of us just don't have the reaction time.  That's why boxing matches and MMA fights don't look like it does in the dojo.  You will seldom fing a parry.  Don't let these stripmall dojos fool ya, a real fight aint what it is on the mat.
> 
> To you others, go ahead and parry, parry, parry.  I wish I find you guys in my next fight.



There is so much you need to learn, I'm frankly lost for words.


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## ChineseKempoJerry (Feb 12, 2007)

I am a retired kickboxer and retired mma fighter.  To say parring does not exist may be incorrect.  I can see the confusion because sometimes parrying is so subtle that it fools you into not seeing it.

I don't want to get caught in semantics here.

Block-  Stop incoming force with force.

Parry- Redirect the force of the attack.

Typically when a boxer is slipping, contact is being made and the force of the attack is being redirected.  Subtle but technically a parry.

In MMA when a fighter sprawls he is parrying because the force of the attack is redirected downward.

I think Seinin that you probably do these things, but like everyone we have different names for them.  I do not try to get caught up in the word game, but the principles are universal.  As Americans we really want to have a complete vocabulary when talking about fighting.  I just do not want to get caught up in it.  

If when you explain it and the other person gets it, then things are right.  Remember it is the principle that is universal not the names.

Hope this helps!

Sifu Jerry


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## Grenadier (Feb 12, 2007)

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## tradrockrat (Feb 12, 2007)

grrr - the truely wise man knows that he knows nothing, right?

Wrap your mind around this - I swear by parries.  I parry all the time in the ring.  MMA'ists also parry all the time.  Every time you intercept a jab or cross with your glove and move it off it's intended target, you are parrying.  I repeat - I do it ALL THE TIME.  I won a national championship free sparing gold medal with parries.  I think that parries are as effective and sometimes easier to use than blocks. JMHO.

I see the strikers in the UFC intercept punches and redirect them to the side with their hands all the time - that's a parry.

In self defense training I utilize what many would call double blocks (using both arms to intercept a strike) but the rear hand (first to make contact) is actually a parry because you need to get that hand back into a defensive position to protect yourself.


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## jdinca (Feb 12, 2007)

I consider a block to be interecepting the strike with a strike. My forearm impacting his forearm to cause damage, not just to keep the punch from hitting me. A parry to me is open handed and designed to deflect the punch enough to keep it from hitting my head. That is the goal after all, isn't it? 

Which one you use depends on the situation and the application. They both have their uses. Just because parries aren't used in the ring doesn't mean they aren't effective.


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## whitetiger2001 (Jun 8, 2007)

A very interesting discussion but I find that blocks and parrys do have a purpose.  I tend to soft block(parry) so that the momentum is still coming in while the strike is turned aside.  This does one important thing, their momentum coming in meets mine going out, double the impact.  
  Use the parry as a weapon rather than a straight block, use it to turn the attacker slightly and set youself up.  A good example of this, is a turning parry for a front kick. The blocking hand circles down and up to come across the throat which is exposed because the attacker is turned sideways.  
  If one blacks and then strikes, the chances are greater of getting hit, if one uses the block to strike or strikes with the block, the results are more favorable.
   Bottom line here, no block or parry is suited for all purposes any more than a strike or kick but they all serve one otherwise we wouldn't learn them.  I doubt that they were added for fluff.


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## James_of_a_thousand_naps (Jun 8, 2007)

Refer to the hierarchy of defense - first to last; interception, destruction, cover, block. A parry (seen in destructions) is a hell of a lot higher than a block and i will rely on it a thousand times more.


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## CuongNhuka (Jun 8, 2007)

Step forward as you parry. Then your parry smashes into his face. And I use them all the time with great effect. The trick (by the way) is to do a Wing Chun-style punch with the knuckles verticle (as apposed to the boxers punch which has the knuckles horizontal)  and keep your elbow bent slightly so that the arm just kind of slides off yours. An alternent version is to do it with the boxing punch, but lean away at an angle. This is more for low stikes. 
Nextly, after you throw a parry, you need grab onto something. If its the straight in version, grab the back of his head and pull him down so you can smash his face with a knee. If its the lean away, grabb his arm and pull him into a kick in the ribs.
And quick question, this is a forum. You are supposed to ask questions or give advice. You did neither, so why did you post this? All you did was insult a tactic and several of the respected members of this site. Why? What was the point?


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## MrE2Me2 (Jun 12, 2007)

Senin, you said, _&#8220;And a lot of it is about reaction time.&#8221;_

  Actually, reaction time is about a quarter of a second form input to action for most people.
  So I would say that &#8220;it&#8221; is much more about awareness and preparedness.

  You said, _&#8220;&#8230;then your brain has to tell ya&#8230;&#8221;_ a couple of times.

  Nope. If you have to think about it, you&#8217;re too late. 
  To be aware of danger is a two fold process. 
  First, one has to &#8220;see&#8221; the danger; as in visually perceive the movement, the distances involved, etc.
  Second, one has to recognize the movement one &#8220;sees&#8221;, as dangerous.
  (And tied in with this is still a third component; the ability to respond effectively *without* thought.)

  You posted, _&#8220;Some of you guys (dojo martial artists) are telling me parrying is a vialble option. Get real.&#8221;_
  Then you go on to expound on a bunch of panicky responses.

  With all due respect:
  I get the overall feeling from your posts that you think blocks and / or parries are some sort of mild, half hearted attempt to keep a scary attacker at arms length. 

  That isn&#8217;t how I was taught to practice (or use) a passive draw. A passive draw is exactly what it says. My opponent attacks what he thinks is an opening. I take that opening away by hitting his limb. (This has been said by others on this thread too.)

  I practice to move my arms through various positions. From these positions I can attack my opponents head, torso and /or limbs. The last of these being known as blocks and / or parries, and there isn&#8217;t anything mild or weak about my passive draw tactics.

  You posted, _&#8220;I wish I find you guys in my next fight.&#8221;_

  Are you aware that such a statement can go to motive in a court of law? Are you aware that if you aren&#8217;t of legal age now; such statements can come back to haunt you when you do become of legal age? And lastly, what would those people whose respect you have earned think of such a lawless tact?


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 12, 2007)

When I studied Qinna here in China my instructor and I eventually made our way up to full speed without telegraphing our attacks. Don't tell me that those endless amounts of parries that we practised and the locks that followed were completely useless.

Qinna aside, one of my favourite techniques is an inner parry, followed by an elbow strike with the same arm (And perhaps followed by a lock or another reverse elbow). Works like a charm.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 12, 2007)

MaartenSFS said:


> When I studied Qinna here in China my instructor and I eventually made our way up to full speed without telegraphing our attacks. Don't tell me that those endless amounts of parries that we practised and the locks that followed were completely useless.
> 
> Qinna aside, one of my favourite techniques is an inner parry, followed by an elbow strike with the same arm (And perhaps followed by a lock or another reverse elbow). Works like a charm.


I've spoken before a few pages back, but I think parrying with the intention of parrying is a tad dangerous, but parry should just happen naturaly given any angle change of your direct strikes and blocks; so, your parry empay(elbow) is just fine, as long as it was a practiced second choice to simply negating the attack.
Sean


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 12, 2007)

sorry double entry
Sean


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## stabpunch (Jun 12, 2007)

Senin said:


> A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.
> 
> The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.
> 
> Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.


 
I apologise for having not read all of the posts but i believe the discussion on the parry is that you don't continually parry waiting for your oportunity. It is a move used to upset your oponents timing and counter.


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## Hand Sword (Jun 13, 2007)

Senin said:


> A teacher recently taught me that those thing I used consider blocks, aren't blocks, they are parries. You know, front punch, your arm moves and knocks his punch to the outside (or inside)-- that is a parry. A block is when he punches and your forearms are there to catch the blow-- it may hurt him more than it hurts you.
> 
> The teacher also stated, parries are almost useless. Who the hell is fast enough to parry? You don't see boxers parry. You don't even see MMA;s parry.
> 
> Then again, those school who teach parries, teach losing. It's too damn defensive for a real fight. What happens after the successful (rare) parry? You throw a punch to his unsuspecting face? Nah, he is already coming in again. And again. And again.


 
1st part-I have heard that explanation as well. For me though, parries are open handed soft "slaps" at oncoming punches say. Blocks are hard movements such as the 8 pt. and star block systems in Kem/npo.

2nd part- Parries are not useless. They are exactly what you use for fast punchers because hard blocks are too slow. Boxers do parry all of the time, usually with the rear hand. MMA'ers do it as well especailly at punches that flick out at you.

3rd part- Huh???? I think you need more fighting experience. As for dissing others, totally uncalled for. Each has a way. None are superior to any others.


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## King (Jun 13, 2007)

From experience I value the usefulness of a parry over a block. But blocking and parries goes hand in hand.  However a parry grants me much more opportunities to retaliate. The downfall of the parry is range, you see you have to have enough room in order to redirect the attack. So I'd have to say that it's safest to parry long range attacks. Blocking on the other hand works best when it's too close to parry. The point of the block is to jam up the opponent's strike instead of absorbing it at full force. If you block too early, you're just asking for a beating. Trust me, your forearms cannot absorb too many hard hits before deadening. We are not machines and sometimes we over-estimate our abilities (nothing is worse than the moment you realize your arms won't respond anymore). Most unexperienced fighters turtle up when they're hurt. It's really bad human instinct that training will hopefully iron away. 

Anyway *Senin*,it just sounds like you really need more experience with blocking and parrying. Learning from experience and forming your own conclusions is much more reliable than hearsay. However listen to sage advice with an open mind and don't just tune them out because you disagree with them. Don't fall into a trap thinking that "this technique must not work because so-and-so said so". That mindset will only cripple your potential. I wish you well with your training.


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 13, 2007)

What do you kempo guys think of this.  Not fast enough to parry?  I don't think so.  In kempo, it only takes a flick of the wrist.  How about wing chun where you get hit at the same time as you get _parried.  _Speak loud enough for your limitations and sure enough, they'll be yours.


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## MaartenSFS (Jun 14, 2007)

Touch Of Death said:


> I've spoken before a few pages back, but I think parrying with the intention of parrying is a tad dangerous, but parry should just happen naturaly given any angle change of your direct strikes and blocks; so, your parry empay(elbow) is just fine, as long as it was a practiced second choice to simply negating the attack.
> Sean


 
By parrying I refer to a re-direction of force. First intercept/divert the incoming strike at an angle (Static blocks are just asking for a counter), letting the force slide past you on its own momentum. Second move in to disrupt the enemy's centre of gravity, either with footwork or by grabbing and pulling them off balance. Finally, apply the strike/s and/or lock/s or other submission techniques.


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