# Things that p*ss me off...



## Matt Stone

I have a friend whose teacher has apparently bought into his own hype, just like so many others in the MA community.

One of the things that really p*sses me off are the non-Asian instructors that try to be more Asian than the Asians!  With the "it's an honor for you to do XYZ," and "I forbid you to do XYZ," it is ridiculous to the extreme!

It is one thing entirely to embrace a foreign culture so much so that you begin to understand it at a nearly native level.  Fine.  But when a person tries to be more ethnic than people from a particular ethnic group, they only succeed in looking silly.

And so it goes for this numbskull...

He is playing the role of the ancient karate master to the hilt, and it burns my a$$ like a 3 foot flame.

There was another guy I knew, years back, who would sit on an elavated dais in a chair and watch his students practice.  He had this home-made throne and occupied it like he was some warlord of old.

What a hoot.  Even his own students eventually started making fun of him, especially after he started insisting on their use of the title "Master" whenever they spoke to him.

Anybody have any similar experiences?

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk

No, thank God!!!  I'm gullible but not THAT gullible!
:rofl:


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## Matt Stone

Doesn't have to be first hand experience studying under such folks, but if you have stories to share...


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## Rich Parsons

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Doesn't have to be first hand experience studying under such folks, but if you have stories to share... *




Does it have to be the megalomaniac syndrome or can it just be things in Martial Arts that makes one angry?

:asian:


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## chufeng

I've heard a bit more about this "sensei" than I really care to.
Although he provides decent instruction, he refuses to let his black belt students train anywhere else...he also conscripts them into doing "favors" which he calls "honors"...

I doubt that he will ever change...I just hope he doesn't damage his students by his provincialism.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Withered Soul

Ones that really annoy me are ones who will throw their hardest best punch and claim it to be their weakest. Also people who do it really half-assed.


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## theletch1

The ones that get me are the ones that go from one extreme to the other, often during the same class.  One moment they are as traditional as the masters of old and the next moment they are cracking jokes with some of the students.  This is, of course, dependent on what kind of day he had at work, or whether he and the wife had a fight or whatever.  Had a bad day? go extreme and beat the hell out of the students to make yourself feel better.:shrug:


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## Shinzu

ive seen pictures on instructors standing on platroms teaching their students.  like a shepard watching over the herd...lol. someone needs to knock them out their high horse once in a while...:rofl:


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## KennethKu

The title "Professor" seems to be spreading outside of the FMA community.


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## RCastillo

Sometimes, all this reminds me of TKD.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I have a friend whose teacher has apparently bought into his own hype, just like so many others in the MA community.
> 
> One of the things that really p*sses me off are the non-Asian instructors that try to be more Asian than the Asians!  With the "it's an honor for you to do XYZ," and "I forbid you to do XYZ," it is ridiculous to the extreme!
> 
> It is one thing entirely to embrace a foreign culture so much so that you begin to understand it at a nearly native level.  Fine.  But when a person tries to be more ethnic than people from a particular ethnic group, they only succeed in looking silly.
> 
> And so it goes for this numbskull...
> 
> He is playing the role of the ancient karate master to the hilt, and it burns my a$$ like a 3 foot flame.
> 
> There was another guy I knew, years back, who would sit on an elavated dais in a chair and watch his students practice.  He had this home-made throne and occupied it like he was some warlord of old.
> 
> What a hoot.  Even his own students eventually started making fun of him, especially after he started insisting on their use of the title "Master" whenever they spoke to him.
> 
> Anybody have any similar experiences?
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



Some folks catch Asian Fever and need all the props to make them feel the part of venerable master. 
I have seen this in Japanese Karate Dojos tooand they already are Asian!!!!!

Makes you feel like going over to them and ask What gives with all the flung pooh chop socky stuff? Have you been watching Black Belt Theater too much again?


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## Touch Of Death

:asian:  Like it or not the oriental motif is what people are paying for. I train in a school that withholds very little of its cultural roots.  One thing I do tire of is people that talk about Mr. Parker as if he were the second comming. We have got to be willing to let go of some of his teachings because there are just to many classical ideas sometimes. We have incorporated some Mui Thai ideas and it really seems to help. The return motion is where the styles differ; sometimes, the mui Thai ideas are the better choice.


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## chufeng

Touch o death from Spokane...
By your posts it appears you are involved in Kempo...

Why did you list Sinanju as an art you are interested in?
Is this a tongue in cheek reference to a grade C movie? Or is there an art called Sinanju?

Joel Gray, playing a master from Korea, in Remo Williams 1, stated that Shinanju is the ultimate martial art...
He further asserted that Koreans were the most perfect race to grace Earth with its footsteps...
Compared to a cabbage he was quite old...but compared to a mountain, he was very young...

Don't look with your eyes..."feel."

:asian:
chufeng


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Is this a tongue in cheek reference to a grade C movie?*



Grade C?????   No way dude, it's a definite B!


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *:asian:  Like it or not the oriental motif is what people are paying for.  *





My teacher will come in wearing a pair of shorts and sandals with a Santa Cruz Slugs T-Shirt on drinking a Diet Pepsi.and he is Asian!


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## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *There was another guy I knew, years back, who would sit on an elavated dais in a chair and watch his students practice.  He had this home-made throne and occupied it like he was some warlord of old.*



Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!

BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that _no one_ in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. :barf:


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!
> 
> BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. :barf: *




ROFL!! What are they doing at the bottom?  Looks like the
patented Mr Miyagi crane technique.

Speaking of Mr Miyagi ... Ryushikan (or anyone else 
knowledgeable) ... I heard a tale that "Miyagi" was a tribute in
that movie to the man who actually brought martial arts to
Okinawa, from China ... any truth to that?


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!
> 
> BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. :barf: *




There is an American bozo on Camp Zama nicknamed "Mr. Stungun" that is almost as bad.........in fact if he ever moves back to the US he will most likely open up the same kind of sushi bar..........er uh I mean "dojo".
And people wondering why I have such a bug up my backside about bogus claims and fakes in the MA.


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## RyuShiKan

Last time I saw this kind of move I was watching Dragon Ball Z.........Yiliquan1, isn't that "Mr. Stungun" in the right side of the photo.
By the way........I have seen him on Zama a couple of times.......he won't make eye contact.

see photo below


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## RyuShiKan

here


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## RyuShiKan

No like this Daniel-san........


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## RyuShiKan

Table for 2 please.........


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## RyuShiKan

From the website:

"Weapons training: The academy teaches classical weapons, such as nunchaku, sai, bo, tonfa and swordsmanship, but also many improvised weapon arts including the Tengu Kenjutsu (double spinning swords) taught nowhere else in the world. Certainly these arts are offered only to those who have demonstrated the physical and emotional maturity to respond to the discipline of training. The decision to teach weapons is a joint one among student, teacher and parents."


Too bad nunchaku, Sai, and tonfa are Okinawan weapons and not Japanese..........which is odd since Ninjutsu is Japanese.
Gee does anyone really need to ask if this guy is making this junk up......:rofl:


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Go to this site and click on the "photos" section. Go towards the bottom. Is this pretty much the type of behavior you are talking about? I live in Japan and have yet to see this type of behavior or so much Japanese Kitsch in a dojo as this!!!
> 
> BTW, this guy claims to teach a Japanese art that no one in Japan has heard of, uses Japanese terms that make native speakers giggle, claims to recive instruction from his teacher via dreams, etc, etc. :barf: *



He is a 10th Dan too!  His bio is a load of crap. He is a certified case officer of the CIA anti terrorist task force.  Riiighhhttt!  If there was ever such a position. Case officers work under deep cover and would NEVER reveal any association with the "Company".  ONLY the FAKE would flaunt his CIA connection.  He was also in the special forces too.


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## Touch Of Death

:soapbox: Chufeng,
   movie? Forget the movie. I've read about 75% of the "Destroyer" novels that the movie was made about. I took a summer of Kenpo in 1980 under Sterling Peacock(hahaha) I mean Matt David(post cult). I read those 60 odd books or so and rejoined kenpo under Skip Hancock in 84. Sinanju was my inspiration and kenpo was my reality. If you train hard enough you are dealing with some of the same concepts and (believe it or not) the same abilities.  I'll never catch bullets(intentionaly) but my ability to inflict bodily damage only grows.  :asian: The ubsurdity of the Koreans being the master race was a toungue and cheek way of pointing out how the martial arts actualy do feed that idea(for what ever country) and it helped us white boys realize that maybe we arent either.


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## RyuShiKan

I have to give credit where credit is due.
I checked with an organization that can verify if people are fake SEALs or the real deal and here is the email they sent me.

_*Normally I'd send you to our reporting form at www.authentiseal.org/report.htm - but yes, Shannon is in fact real so I'll just tell you and skip the form.*_


So to all the folks that were moaning about how it was impossible to verify things claimed on the Internet I guess it is possible to verify things.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *ROFL!! What are they doing at the bottom?  Looks like the
> patented Mr Miyagi crane technique.
> 
> Speaking of Mr Miyagi ... Ryushikan (or anyone else
> knowledgeable) ... I heard a tale that "Miyagi" was a tribute in
> that movie to the man who actually brought martial arts to
> Okinawa, from China ... any truth to that? *




As far as I know the Karate Kid story was created by Jerry Weintraub, who came up with idea for the film and  the script was by Robert Mark Kamen.

The name Miyagi could have been chosen to give reference to Miyagi Chojun?? Who is a fairly familiar persona in Karate as well as being from Okianwa.


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## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I checked with an organization that can verify if people are fake SEALs or the real deal and here is the email they sent me.*



Oh, I could have told you that he attended BUDS training. That has been verified by at least one other person than me, which is why they probably already knew.

AFAIK, none of his other claims seem to pan out. CIA can not confirm his story because it is "too secret" according to them. (Well, if it was secret, why are _they_ talking aboutit?) No one I trust has yet to say they can confirm the stories about Vietnam, Special Forces, CIA case officer, etc.

But what gets me about the pictures is that huge gong they have. Is that really a part of Asian MA practice? Maybe it is a Chinese thing. In some dojos in Japan I have seen Taiko drums, but I can't think of seeing a gong in a dojo. Is it maybe Okinawan, like the sais, nunchakus and such he uses? 

I just get this weird thought in my head (I am probably dating myself) of some poor guy trying  to show off his kata for the class, only to have to leave the stage after Jamie Farr gongs him.


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## zen_hydra

I don't no anything about the verity of this guys claims, but why are you folks complaining about the way he decorates?  You don't have to be an Asian-wannabe to appreciate Asian art.  If this guy likes gongs, does that have any bearing whatsoever on his ability?  This guy may very well be a fraud, but it's not because he spent a lot of money on Asian decor.


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## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by zen_hydra _
> *I don't no anything about the verity of this guys claims, but why are you folks complaining about the way he decorates?*



Speaking for myself, I think of the whole "more Asian than the Asians" as a form of extreme stereotyping. I live in Japan and have studied in some pretty traditional dojos, and none of them come close to the level of kitsch that this place has. In fact, the best dojos all seem to radiate a sense of understatement and simplicity that is the complete opposite of this. It is like people are trying for some sort of "Mr Miyagi" type of image that is a gross stereo type.

I think others get mad at the fact that the teachers that do this often use it as part of establishing themselves over their students with the "Master teacher" image that people think happen in Asia. You may note that on the picture page is one of the "master" elevated on a platform as he surveys and instructs his students. I have yet to see that type of scene in Japan. People do give more repsect to teachers as a whole in Japan, but there is a whole lot more to it than that. These people tend to take the images they think will benifit them, strengthen it, and propogate a very warped and rather insultin stereotype just for a little more power over their students.

That may be why people get mad at these things. Some of us are just laughing.


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## RyuShiKan

Don, 

Its hard to explain to people outside Japan/Asia how ridiculous that guys dojo/"restaurant" looks. I have yet to see a dojo here that has all the crap that guy has in his.
Its funny, the old JKA World HQ was a converted bowling alley that you could still see where the lanes had been filled in.
The teacher/student relationship in Japan is, as you say, rather different than that of the west.
I rarely see Japanese students go into what I call suck *** groveling Samurai mode, however I see it a lot in the west.


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## zen_hydra

I understand what you guy are saying, but I would point out (and I am not defending this guy in particular) that Americans, in general, tend to be much more overstated than Japanese.  Japanese culture encourages subtlety.  American culture encourages bluntness.  Keep in mind these are broad stereotypes.  My point, is that this American sensei who lives in Japan should not really surprise anyone when he decorates like an American using an Asian theme.  His taste may be tacky, but if he has always dreamed of running a school out of a movie set/restaurant where is the harm?  Does his taste in furnishing actually affect his ability to teach?  ...and if the martial arts thing doesn't work out for him he can start serving udon.


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## Randy Strausbaugh

It's amazing what some instructors will present as "traditional"- almost as amazing as how eagerly the public laps this stuff up.  I work with a guy who claims to have practiced martial arts, and when I asked him what style, he didn't know the name, but said it was "kind of like Tae Kwon Do, only not"(???).  He further claimed that his instructor, as a test of the prospective student's sincerity, made said student take an oath of celebacy lasting one year, and then got women to try to seduce him in order to see if he could resist.  Personally, I have made it my goal in life to find this instructor.  I'm willing to take this test, no matter how often I fail.  Bring 'em on, sensei!

Trying to avoid life's potholes, 
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Matt Stone

Again with the instructors that don't...

There was one instructor I knew years back that taught Taijquan to his students.  He learned the form very quickly, very directly, had the applications explained and demonstrated, and benefitted from a very good teacher.

When he had his own school, he started teaching completely differently than the way he had learned.  He taught the form one posture at a time, with practice times for each posture running from a week to a month _just for one posture_.  His argument was that "the ancients" taught that way, so there must be some use for it (not that he apparently knew that use, mind you).

The real kicker was when he started trying to tell his students that that was how *he* had learned in the first place...

There was another instructor of a Korean kung fu style that came into our town a few years after our school had began developing a decent reputation.  He borrowed a video of our teacher's (containing our methods of Taijiquan and Baguazhang), and lo and behold several months later he began claiming to teach...  wait for it...  Taijiquan and Baguazhang.  Additionally, he changed the existing sash system used in their style to conform to our method.  I was never told why, but I suspect it was to better blend with the competition and draw away those who had seen us and were interested in training with us, but who wouldn't know enough to differentiate between the two schools...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## TLH3rdDan

well i like the layout of that floor he has but i could do with out the decoration... just add a few racks to store weapons and equipment where he has his gong and that would be a decent dojo... just my 2 cents on it


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## jdmills

Why a guy who was a legitimate SEAL (I also checked it out with cyberseals.org and received a response that the Shannon is legitimate) would then go on to make so many claims that were almost certainly false is beyond me.


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## KennethKu

There was a time the SEALs program was relaxed to bring in more recruits. According to the first generation of SEALS, they believed that a lot of lesser characters got in, who were subsequently weeded out later.


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## Kawika Sensei

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *He is a 10th Dan too!  His bio is a load of crap. He is a certified case officer of the CIA anti terrorist task force.  Riiighhhttt!  If there was ever such a position. Case officers work under deep cover and would NEVER reveal any association with the "Company".  ONLY the FAKE would flaunt his CIA connection.  He was also in the special forces too. *



I just received an email suggesting that I look into the chat room since someone was speaking "negatively" about my dojo - sure enough, there it was, a string of terribly vitriolic accusations about someone you have never seen, met, nor obviously know the least thing about.  Some of my students wished to respond, however, I decided this time I would speak to you myself.

Following your conversations reminded me of a small clique of children in the corner of the school playground snickering at and making fun of their teachers behind their backs - grow up guys, isn't that what your Sensei's are teaching you? - or should be.

I'll state this once only publicly for all to hear and note - I have achieved everything on my website bio and more.  I have many times over, for the military, the U.S. Govt., the Episcopal Church and for my own community verified each and every claim I have made.  As a resident of a large community here in San Diego, who has been featured in several newspapers, magazines and on TV news including CNN, as a member or a speaker of several clubs and organizations in this community such as Toastmasters, Rotary, Yale, Harvard and Stanford clubs I have most certainly survived the scrutiny of the Press and anyone interested in verifying my background.  Just because you have not taken the courtesy to confirm my claims for yourself at your own time and expense does not give you the right to question the veracity of my resume.

I will say this, I am sorry you don't like my gong.   It is 200 years old, I got it in Indonesia.  In fact, as my website states, I teach several schools of martial disciplines and the museum quality artifacts I have picked up over the past 45 years are treasured additions to our Temple (in fact, that is one of the reasons I use the name "Temple" - because of the many religious icons that I have displayed in the school) - I never heard any of our guests complain before, perhaps the problem you have is - young, arrogant wannabes being just a little too full of themselves.

I was raised on the big Island of Hawaii by a Japanese family and associated daily with the elders of both the Chinese and Hawaiian communities.  I also read and speak Japanese and Chinese, have lived in both of those countries, I lecture in both the Japanese and Chinese communities and have many students from Asian cultures. So, I don't defer to your loose, rather sophomoric stereotype of what is or is not their culture, martial or otherwise.

I have noted your accusation that one who teaches Japanese arts cannot for some reason be familiar with or teach Okinawan weapons, e.g. nunchaku, that is just plain silly. I guess that applies to Bruce Lee and Fumio Demura as well as a host of Americans and Europeans who have practiced with or are teaching these - my point is that YOUR point is ludicrous. Oh, and your insights into the CIA are pure comic book.

My sign has been up and my doors have been open here in San Diego for eight years.  Not one person has come through that door and left saying that I'm "not for real".  When you insult people you know nothing of, you say more about yourself than anything else.  Nevertheless, I have my own complaints about those who claim more than they are and recognize that a healthy skepticism is valid - the key word is "healthy".  In my case, you are not only wrong, but hurtful comments like yours are indeed not healthy.  You could use a good lesson or two from your Sensei on manners.

Kawika Sensei, 10th Dan
Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu
Headmaster, Temple of the Full Autumn Moon


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## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *Following your conversations reminded me of a small clique of children in the corner of the school playground snickering at and making fun of their teachers behind their backs - grow up guys, isn't that what your Sensei's are teaching you? - or should be.
> 
> 
> Snip
> 
> perhaps the problem you have is - young, arrogant wannabes being just a little too full of themselves. *



Great first post. I am sure you will be met in the same spirit you show here. Have we perhaps struck a nerve?



> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *I also read and speak Japanese and Chinese, have lived in both of those countries,*



Oh really? Then why the terrible Japanese you use in your article. Shorinjin does not mean "men of Shaolin" as you state. All the native speakers I talked to about it thought it was some sort of joke on my part when I told them. What rank do you have in the Japanese proficiency exam given by the Japanese goverment.




> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *I have noted your accusation that one who teaches Japanese arts cannot for some reason be familiar with or teach Okinawan weapons, e.g. nunchaku, that is just plain silly. I guess that applies to Bruce Lee and Fumio Demura*



Pssssst, Fumio Demura is a noted teacher of Karate, which is an Okinawan art. And Bruce Lee did not claim a Japanese background either.



> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *My sign has been up and my doors have been open here in San Diego for eight years.  Not one person has come through that door and left saying that I'm "not for real".  When you insult people you know nothing of, you say more about yourself than anything else.*



Ah yes, the Virtual Tough guy response from Sharp Phil's Guides to the Virtual Tough Guy, Trolss and Internet Defense Mechanisms.



> WHO ARE YOU TO CHALLENGE ME?
> 
> As I wrote in How To Spot a Virtual Sensei, VTGs and VSs are bullies who believe force is the appropriate solution to every disagreement. Part of the psychology behind this attitude is the logically flawed notion that no criticism is valid unless voiced by someone of higher rank or longer experience. When called on their claims or questioned on their opinions, VTGs and VSs often will demand to know the rank, style, and years of experience possessed by the critic. If this information is provided, the VS or VTG will then dismiss the criticism as coming from someone who is his or her "junior" in the arts. This does not invalidate the criticism, of course -- you need not be able to beat someone up, nor need you possess a belt one shade darker, for your opinion to be logically and factually valid -- but in the minds of the VS and VTG it is all the rebuttal necessary. Anyone who has ever attended a commercial McDojo has seen this attitude displayed, too, by the small percentage of students strutting about condescending to those whose belts are at least one shade lighter.
> 
> 
> MEET ME
> 
> Closely related to the "Who are you to challenge me?" mechanism is the demand for a face-to-face meeting. The VS or VTG is forever demanding that his or her critics either put up or shut up. No one who cannot beat him in the ring may question his wisdom, the VS thinks. No one incapable of kicking her behind on the street may dare inquire regarding the veracity of her claims, the VTG believes. Ultimately, however, this is simply a defense mechanism like any other -- for since most rational people do not go out of their way to get into physical fights with obnoxious online personalities, the VTG or VS can rest assured that he or she will not be taken up on the offer.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *  I'll state this once only publicly for all to hear and note - I have achieved everything on my website bio and more.  I have many times over, for the military, the U.S. Govt., the Episcopal Church and for my own community verified each and every claim I have made.  As a resident of a large community here in San Diego, who has been featured in several newspapers, magazines and on TV news including CNN, as a member or a speaker of several clubs and organizations in this community such as Toastmasters, Rotary, Yale, Harvard and Stanford clubs I have most certainly survived the scrutiny of the Press and anyone interested in verifying my background.  Just because you have not taken the courtesy to confirm my claims for yourself at your own time and expense does not give you the right to question the veracity of my resume. *



Oh have no fear, I checked on some of your claims.
Your SEAL claim checked out. As I am sure you are aware there are more than a few people running around claiming to be SEALs so much so that anyone that does claim so is almost automatically written off as a fake. Hence the skepticism. 

As to your test of passing the scrutiny of the press.
I live in Japan and am often amused by the reports I see about Japan by CNN, ABC and so on.in fact some of them are down right hilarious if not down right goofy!

As for what you teach.I could care less. However I still think your dojo looks more like a Benihana of Tokyo Resturant  than a dojo..no offense.most dojo that I see in the US remind me of a tacky sushi shop of some sort.




> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *  I never heard any of our guests complain before, perhaps the problem you have is - young, arrogant wannabes being just a little too full of themselves. *



Or maybe they just dont know the difference.



> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *  I was raised on the big Island of Hawaii by a Japanese family and associated daily with the elders of both the Chinese and Hawaiian communities.  I also read and speak Japanese and Chinese, have lived in both of those countries, I lecture in both the Japanese and Chinese communities and have many students from Asian cultures. So, I don't defer to your loose, rather sophomoric stereotype of what is or is not their culture, martial or otherwise.*



Uhhhh..I work with a lot of Japanese and Chinese Hawaiians here in Japan and have found that they are just as foreign to Japan as any howlie (white guy) is..most of them cant speak Japanese at alland the few that can sound more like they are speaking pigeon English than Japanese.

This is the way I picture a dojo connected to the Japanese/Okinawan arts:


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## Randy Strausbaugh

> _Originally posted by Kawika Sensei _
> *...I also read and speak Japanese...
> 
> Kawika Sensei, 10th Dan
> Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu
> Headmaster, Temple of the Full Autumn Moon *


If I am not mistaken, the proper transliteration is "ninjutsu", not "ninjitsu".  If I am in error, apologies all around.:asian: 

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## Matt Stone

*Kawika-san* -

*Taken from the website -* 



> Known as Kawika (pronounced "Kavika") Sensei to his Ninjitsu students and as Father Shannon to his parishioners, Shannon Kawika Phelps is many things to many people. As the Headmaster of the Temple of the Full Autumn Moon in San Diego, and an ordained Episcopal priest, Phelps is master, minister, counselor, listener, preacher, and teacher. He offers insights and training from his vast life experience - as one newspaper reporter put it, his biography reads like War and Peace, only longer.



Where is the name "Kawika" from?  Is it a birth name, or a name you either assumed or was "given" to you?  Just curious...  Also, when did you attend seminary school?



> Phelps is a Vietnam combat veteran (Special Forces), then spent seven years both enlisted and as an officer in the elite U.S. Navy SEALs.



Can you provide dates?  Years would be fine, actually...  You see, most civilians couldn't tell the difference between enlisted and officers, and folks that cite their military experience as some form of qualification for their martial arts skills really perturb me.  Especially since HTH is really not something regular troops worry about, and even though SOF folks train in it quite a bit, they are far from being "martial arts masters."

So if you had 7 years active duty with the SEALS, that puts you somewhere around 7 - 10 years on active duty total (since, at least to my limited knowledge, you don't just walk into BUDS as a newbie fresh from basic training).  That'd mean you got out somewhere around 28 years old.  When did you find time to get your BA or BS to allow you to transfer to the officer corps, or were you a warrant officer?  Or were you just a petty officer, noncommissioned type?



> He was an officer for the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces in the Golan Heights, Syria and Southern Lebanon, and later became a certified case officer for the C.I.A.'s counter-terrorist task force. He is not only a highly qualified teacher of Chinese and Japanese martial arts, he has made practical use of the arts in a multitude of "real life" situations!



Well, it does sound enticing, but how does any of this really impact your martial arts credibility?  Sounds like the back cover of a Mack Bolan book...  How long did you work for the CIA?  It would seem that would eat up another few years, what with training and all...



> Fluent in Mandarin Chinese after sojourning in a Ch'an Buddhist monastery in China for two years, Phelps then earned a B.A. degree in international relations from Stanford University. He also holds a Master's degree in comparative world religions from Harvard University, and a Masters of Divinity from Yale University.



Again, a chronology of your training would be nice...  Seems like much of what you claim to possess would be time intensive.  So somewhere around the age of 30ish or so (if we just give you a few years with the CIA after getting out of the Navy) you take off for China for a few years.  Then somewhere after that you spend time working on an _additional_ BA (since you had to have one to qualify for an officer's commission earlier in your career), then two Master's degrees...  That's at least 5 or 6 years there, depending on how much of your prior BA/BS credits transferred over to the new school's curriculum.



> A 10th degree black belt in the Japanese family art of Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu, Kawika Sensei is the only non-Saito in the 1,000-year history of this art to be granted the rank of Saito Ninjitsu Master. He is one of only three to be granted this title by the present Grandmaster of the art, Mark Saito, Sr. - the other two are the Grandmaster's sons.



So when did you find the time to train in this art?  So far, the rough chronology I've outlined really hasn't allowed for much time in training at all...  Living the life of a combat soldier, followed by 7 years as a veteran of the special ops community doesn't leave much time for anything at all, much less training to a senior rank in an obscure martial art.  Where did you do your training, at least initially?



> Kawika's authority as a teacher of the Fu family Wu Dang arts of mainland China comes from Grand Sifu Bow Sim Mark, T'ai Chi Gold Medalist in Beijing and founder of the Chinese Wushu Research Institute in Boston. As a private student of Sifu Mark for many years, Phelps is the only person authorized by her to teach these arts in the Western United States.



Many years training under Bow Sim Mark...  Quite a respectable claim.  But, how many years, and when?  Again, more time intensive issues, and you are already approaching mid-30s by our rough chronology outlined here...



> Shannon has been featured in the San Diego Union-Tribune, in the Stanford Daily, on Good Day LA (Fox TV), on San Diego's KNSD-TV, and on CNN Worldwide.



Well, this speaks to your notoriety, but not to your martial skills and background.  Even TLC and Discovery have aired folks that are widely known to be bold-faced frauds at the very best estimate...  The media and the public don't know the difference between karate and kung fu, hence the phrase "I know karate and 7 other _Chinese_ words."



> He has spoken at Rotary Clubs, Young Presidents' Organization, junior and senior high schools, FBI association, military and embassy gatherings, and was the keynote speaker for the National Convention of the Women's Overseas Service League in 1996.



What does any of this have to do with your martial arts?  What were the topics of your speeches?  Did they reference martial arts, or were you speaking as an Episcopal minister?  Your reasons for being a guest speaker have relevance if you are citing such appearances as some form of evidence toward your martial importance...



> He has published several articles on Asian martial arts.



What are the articles on, where are/were they published, and with whom?  I've typed up some articles, quite a few in fact, and have had a few published quietly on the internet.  Doesn't mean I'm some sort of expert, though...  Just that I managed to convince someone to post my stuff.

I'm not trying to ambush you or attack you.  You make claims that seem to be larger than life, and your alleged history sounds more at home in a novel or B-movie than in the reality that we all share.  If you were amenable to answering my questions, I am sure it would go a long way toward convincing any naysayers that your background is legitimate.

I'll be nice, and leave alone the issue that someone fluent in Chinese and Japanese should be more concerned about correct transliteration of Asian languages.  The art of the Ninja is correctly spelled "_ninjutsu_" in Romaji...  The spelling you make use of would be a completely different thing, not even possessing the correct pronunciation (i.e. "_ninjitsu_" would be pronounced "neen-jeet-soo," and that would be an incorrect pronunciation of the second kanji in the term).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## gozanryu

Matt, I am curious. What is your point with your last post? Are you asking Sensei Phelps to restate what he's already stated? Do you know his birthdate. (I am assuming you do as you are extrapolating a timeline.)
Lets start here.
"Where is the name "Kawika" from? Is it a birth name, or a name you either assumed or was "given" to you?"

Huh? I thought you read through the web site.

"Can you provide dates? Years would be fine, actually... You see, most civilians couldn't tell the difference between enlisted and officers, and folks that cite their military experience as some form of qualification for their martial arts skills really perturb me. Especially since HTH is really not something regular troops worry about, and even though SOF folks train in it quite a bit, they are far from being "martial arts masters"

What? Why? And where does he state that his SOF creditials equal Ninjitsu mastery?


"That'd mean you got out somewhere around 28 years old. When did you find time to get your BA or BS to allow you to transfer to the officer corps, or were you a warrant officer? Or were you just a petty officer, noncommissioned type?"

Why would it mean that? Also, he lists the Universities he attended on the Web site. Why dont you do the research and post the results here?

"How long did you work for the CIA? It would seem that would eat up another few years, what with training and all..."

Again, do you have evidence that he (Phelps) was NOT in the CIA?

"additional BA (since you had to have one to qualify for an officer's commission earlier in your career), then two Master's degrees... That's at least 5 or 6 years there, depending on how much of your prior BA/BS credits transferred over to the new school's curriculum"

See above. You check it out.

"Many years training under Bow Sim Mark... Quite a respectable claim"

Why dont you call Sifu Mark at her Boston Dojo and ask her? 


"I'm not trying to ambush you or attack you. You make claims that seem to be larger than life, and your alleged history sounds more at home in a novel or B-movie than in the reality that we all share. If you were amenable to answering my questions, I am sure it would go a long way toward convincing any naysayers that your background is legitimate."

You sir, are a liar. (no offense) You are DEFINITELY attacking him. It is funny to hear you call someone (oh, I'm sorry, INFER) a liar, and then try to sound as if you are genuine in your intent.

You have jumped on a bandwagon to disparrage someone you would not recognize if they walked in your Dojo. You are trying to infer a lack of credibility because YOU find his Bio incredulous? Huh? So be it. Go out, do the research, and expose all of the frauds here. Of course, if you have any honor, you will naturally have to come here and say so if you find his Military carreer, Govt. carrer, and school creditials to be legit. (let me save you some time, they are) Now, as far as the "legitamacy of the Art itself. Gees, no, its not Bujinkan, or any Takamatsuden tradition. If you want to read scads of threads on it, go over to e-budo and check it out. Even Don Roley might agree that that horse has been whipped to death.

My point is this. YOu say that He "Burns your @$$" Really, when did you speak with him? You say you have first hand, 2nd hand information. Buddy! Dont be a jerk! Check it out for your self. Call him, e-mail him, better yet, talk to the MANY students who(m) have studied under him and found it valuable.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Here we go again. 

This reminds of several other threads where person A is questioned about *their* claims on a website and then person A wants the questioner (person B) to supply the proof for the claims made by person A.  
How flaud is that logic. 

Example:

I publicly claim to have a $1,000,000 in my bank account.
You ask me if I really have a $1,000,000 in my bank account.
I tell you to prove that I dont.


----------



## gozanryu

I think you meant *Flawed* ? ANyway, no. Thats not what I am asking. Phelps has given the Universities he attended names. He has given the government job titles he has held. I.E. SEAL, CIA and his areas of operation. Supported it with a published book that includes pictures of him: in Vietnam, in Syria, in Afghanistan, graduating from BUDS, getting Diplomas from University. I dont think I am being unreasonable. He has reasonably supported his position. If someone wants to disprove his position, it is upon them to do so. Since you like the logical approach. You are innocent until PROVEN guilty in this country. I can think of many people I know who(m) have claimed, among other things, SEAL afffiliation, SOF affiliation, and yes, CIA affiliation. Of those people they have all shown to be exactly what they said without having to show me their Trident, Tab, or Cloak. I am not asking that anyone PROVE Phelps' claims. I am asking that you DIS- prove them if you are of the opinion that they (the claims) are false.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *I think you meant Flawed ?*



Play on words there..........flawed/fraud.....get it?


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *   I think you meant Flawed ? ANyway, no. Thats not what I am asking. Phelps has given the Universities he attended names. He has given the government job titles he has held. I.E. SEAL, CIA and his areas of operation. *



And we are just supposed to take him at his word??? I think not.



> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *   Supported it with a published book that includes pictures of him: in Vietnam, in Syria, in Afghanistan, graduating from BUDS, getting Diplomas from University. I dont think I am being unreasonable. He has reasonably supported his position. If someone wants to disprove his position, it is upon them to do so. *



Ive been to some of those countries, had my photo taken there and I was never a double knot spy.so whats the point? He owns a camera is about all that proves.
What does all that have to do with his martial training?
0




> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *   Since you like the logical approach. You are innocent until PROVEN guilty in this country. *



Or how about this..your claims are just claims until proven to be fact.
I can play word games with you all day but that still wont prove some of his claims are true. 



> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *    I can think of many people I know who(m) have claimed, among other things, SEAL afffiliation, SOF affiliation, and yes, CIA affiliation. *



He claimed/claims to be a SEAL http://www.authentiseal.org/mjd2.htm
As do many others on the Internet.
I did check and his claim to being a SEAL came back positive, that doesnt mean all the rest of what he claims is true.




> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *   I am asking that you DIS- prove them if you are of the opinion that they (the claims) are false. *



It is far easier to prove something exists than prove it does not.
The burden of proof is on the person making the claim.not the person asking questions.


----------



## RyuShiKan

Don, 

With all your Budo/Ninjutsu connections can you find any info on this style of "NinjItsu"?
I have looked all over my books on Japanese Martial History and haven't found squat. You would think with a 1,000 year lineage there would be something.

"A 10th degree black belt in the Japanese family art of Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu, Kawika Sensei is the only non-Saito in the 1,000-year history of this art to be granted the rank of Saito Ninjitsu Master. He is one of only three to be granted this title by the present Grandmaster of the art, Mark Saito, Sr. - the other two are the Grandmaster's sons."


----------



## RyuShiKan

The second level is the severe bone-crushing art of Tsuiyoi Karatedo. This art requires extreme training discipline and was originally taught only to tournament teams.

Are you kidding


 There are few who complete this training, and it is not required in order to achieve ranking in Ninjitsu Mastery. The third level includes Pasai Sho and Pasai Dai (very different from the Okinawan schools' kata forms with these names).

Odd how they kept the Okinawan names but not the form.
After reading this, my guess is this Saito NinjItsu was one of those Ka-radee schools that became a Ninja school during the big Ninja craze way back when.


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *Matt, I am curious. What is your point with your last post? Are you asking Sensei Phelps to restate what he's already stated? Do you know his birthdate. (I am assuming you do as you are extrapolating a timeline.)*



No, I don't know a birthdate...  However, since you are only eligible for miilitary service at around 17 to 18 years of age, and given the extraordinarily time consuming claims he has made, I figured I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he started early...  He said he was Special Forces in the Army in Vietnam, and then transferred to the Navy, on to BUDs, then on to officer training (of some sort - don't know what kind yet), then back to the SEALs.  That racks up _at least_ 10 to 12 years absolute bare minimum...  My original comment of 7 - 10 was based just on the Navy time (I didn't think through the Army time too well when I posted).

And I'm not asking him to relate what he has already posted _ I'm asking for details to a timeline he hasn't touched on at all.



> *Lets start here.
> "Where is the name "Kawika" from? Is it a birth name, or a name you either assumed or was "given" to you?"
> 
> Huh? I thought you read through the web site.*



I haven't read through the entire thing.  I had other things to do.  But if that is where the answer lies, I will surely rush right over there to discover that name's hidden truths...  



> *"Can you provide dates? Years would be fine, actually... You see, most civilians couldn't tell the difference between enlisted and officers, and folks that cite their military experience as some form of qualification for their martial arts skills really perturb me. Especially since HTH is really not something regular troops worry about, and even though SOF folks train in it quite a bit, they are far from being "martial arts masters"
> 
> What? Why? And where does he state that his SOF creditials equal Ninjitsu mastery?*



Why provide dates?  Well, see, when someone tries to pass off their secret special ops background as some sort of qualifier for their martial skills, I start asking questions - like why is their martial history in need of such supporting storyline?  Why doesn't their martial history have the ability to stand on its own?  Stories about special forces folks being martial arts masters starts making me wonder if the Dark Warrior was really Chiun of Sinanju fame...  Dates serve to show how long he was in and at what ranks.  Lots of folks like to drop "chief instructor of XXXX base" as their claim to fame, when in fact they just happened to be the person that was available to sign a NAF contract with that installation to teach MA to the kids at the youth center...  So the rank he was and for how long has bearing on his claims to military experience relevant to his martial arts background.

As for "where does he state that his SOF credentials equal Ninjitsu master," well, he _is_ the one listing his background, and anyone that is reading it is surely intended to infer that his background has developed him somehow, especially since he extrapolates his training and military background in a related storyline, i.e. "he has made use of his skills in real world situations," or words to that effect.

SOF or any other military credentials mean precisely Richard as far as martial arts skills go...  We don't train to fight that way, even when we do train in HTH.  We have firearms, heavy artillery, armored vehicles and tanks to do the fighting.  There just isn't all that much room in doctrine to allow for ranks of martial arts warriors waltzing across the battlefield to participate in mortal combat with the enemy...  Much easier to call in arty and let HE do the work.  



> *"That'd mean you got out somewhere around 28 years old. When did you find time to get your BA or BS to allow you to transfer to the officer corps, or were you a warrant officer? Or were you just a petty officer, noncommissioned type?"
> 
> Why would it mean that? Also, he lists the Universities he attended on the Web site. Why dont you do the research and post the results here?*



First, as I stated above, I am giving him the earliest possible time to have joined the military.  Being that I have been active duty for the last 11 years, I can attest to the inherent difficulty in obtaining a BA/BS while on active duty.  For a combat soldier from Vietnam, and then a Navy SEAL to have gotten a BA/BS in under a decade would infer that either he didn't participate in a lot of training, or that he went to the school but didn't do the job...  Since his SEAL claim checked out, it would lead me to believe that he didn't do too much work _as_ a SEAL, since regular military training, deployments, sea duty, would all restrict his ability to go to school regularly (not to mention the fact that he would likely only have lunch and after duty hours to attend classes).

Second, since _I'm_ not the one making the claims, it really isn't _my_ job to have to find out the documentation to support the claims...

See, I work in the Army JAG Corps.  When the prosecutor alleges something, the defense counsel only has to show reasonable doubt to cause the allegations to become suspect...  I see my position as the defense counsel, not the prosecutor.  Mr. Phelps is presenting an allegation that he did such and so.  I have no personal heartburn, but I certainly would like to see some more detailed documentation to prove he claims.  I can argue that I am able to provide reasonable doubt by displaying that a timeline of very generous parameters discounts the ability to have invested much in the way of time and effort toward obtaining the lofty grades and positions he claims.  As the allegations are _his_, he bears the burden of proof...  All I have to do is poke holes in the story.



> *"How long did you work for the CIA? It would seem that would eat up another few years, what with training and all..."
> 
> Again, do you have evidence that he (Phelps) was NOT in the CIA?*



Again, not my problem to prove he was or wasn't.  I just have to prove reasonable doubt.  And why would a former CIA operative either a) publicly announce his involvement in such activities, or b) think that such activities had anything to do with his martial arts background?  It sounds like just more hype and fluff to make the alleged ninja master sound more mysterious and spooky to the uninitiated, ignorant civilian with no knowledge nor experience with the backgrounds Mr. Phelps claims.



> *"additional BA (since you had to have one to qualify for an officer's commission earlier in your career), then two Master's degrees... That's at least 5 or 6 years there, depending on how much of your prior BA/BS credits transferred over to the new school's curriculum"
> 
> See above. You check it out.*



See above.  Not my place to prove or disprove, just to bring in a little doubt...



> *"Many years training under Bow Sim Mark... Quite a respectable claim"
> 
> Why dont you call Sifu Mark at her Boston Dojo and ask her?*



I feel like we are playing Ring Around the Rosy with this line of argument...  Perhaps I will do just that, however...



> *"I'm not trying to ambush you or attack you. You make claims that seem to be larger than life, and your alleged history sounds more at home in a novel or B-movie than in the reality that we all share. If you were amenable to answering my questions, I am sure it would go a long way toward convincing any naysayers that your background is legitimate."
> 
> You sir, are a liar. (no offense) You are DEFINITELY attacking him. It is funny to hear you call someone (oh, I'm sorry, INFER) a liar, and then try to sound as if you are genuine in your intent.*



Think what you like, Mr. My Profile Says Nothing At All.  You joined MT on the day after I posted my questions to Mr. Phelps.  That leads me to believe you could possibly be in his camp.  Fine.  It could also be believed that you are either one of his students, or Mr. Phelps himself.  The Mods can prove or disprove that.  Wouldn't be the first time such a thing has happened.  Whatever.

If I were really attacking him, I would have come right out and said he was a fraud.  Note the encouragement I give in the whole "it'll go a long way toward convincing any naysayers that your backgorund is legitimate" comment.  I don't need to call him a fraud.  His actions or inactions will define that for me.  He will either provide proof, or he won't.  Both situations are inevitable, and in the case of one my suppositions will be proven incorrect, and in the other they will be proven correct.

Call me some more names...  And be creative next time, huh?



> *You have jumped on a bandwagon to disparrage someone you would not recognize if they walked in your Dojo. You are trying to infer a lack of credibility because YOU find his Bio incredulous? Huh? So be it. Go out, do the research, and expose all of the frauds here. Of course, if you have any honor, you will naturally have to come here and say so if you find his Military carreer, Govt. carrer, and school creditials to be legit. (let me save you some time, they are) Now, as far as the "legitamacy of the Art itself. Gees, no, its not Bujinkan, or any Takamatsuden tradition. If you want to read scads of threads on it, go over to e-budo and check it out. Even Don Roley might agree that that horse has been whipped to death.*



I would recognize him - saw the pics on his site.  I am sure I'm not the only person with a little commons sense that thinks his background sounds more at home in a Remo Williams novel than in real life.  Especially given the time I have spent working for the Government (it really isn't as glamorous as the movies make it out to be).  If I found out he was legitimate, believe me I would be the first one to state so publicly - but since you haven't known me beyond the past few days, you would have no record of who I am, what I am about, or how I behave in public forum - ask around, folks will support the fact that I am the first one to admit when I am wrong, and do so loud, up front, and in public...  G'head, ask...  I dare ya.  

As for the legitimacy of "ninja" schools, I will say for the record that I think the so-called "ninja" schools are a bunch of hooey.  I don't believe, for a single minute, that they are "authentic" traditions.  Every "ninja master" has had an extensive MA background known publicly before they became known as "ninja."  Sure, go ahead, use the convenient excuse that "that's how ninjas operate - you never know their secrets" or some other Hollywood crap.  I don't believe the Bujinkan or any of the splinter groups therefrom are legitimate ryuha.  But if folks want to run about thinking they are ninja, that's just fine.  My 7 year old son does it, so why can't they? 



> *My point is this. YOu say that He "Burns your @$$" Really, when did you speak with him? You say you have first hand, 2nd hand information. Buddy! Dont be a jerk! Check it out for your self. Call him, e-mail him, better yet, talk to the MANY students who(m) have studied under him and found it valuable. *



Why email him?  Can't we talk publicly right here?  Why call him?  This is a suitable enough forum, and it allows him to think out his responses and reply intelligently instead of being put on the spot.  I wouldn't ask students, since 90% of them have no idea what they are getting into when they join a school, and often have no knowledge of the "outside world" while training in that school...  Students are regularly and daily defrauded and bilked of time, effort, sweat and cash.  It'd be like asking devout Moonies if they though Rev. Moon was legit - like they'd know.  

I look forward to your responses, Mr. Phelps' responses, both, or neither...  All are inevitable anyway...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *The second level is the severe bone-crushing art of Tsuiyoi Karatedo. This art requires extreme training discipline and was originally taught only to tournament teams.*



Severe bone-crushing _tournament_ training?  Why does that sound incompatible?



> *There are few who complete this training, and it is not required in order to achieve ranking in Ninjitsu Mastery. The third level includes Pasai Sho and Pasai Dai (very different from the Okinawan schools' kata forms with these names).*



In what fashion are they very different?  And why the identical naming, as RyuShiKan points out, in Okinawan and not Japanese?  With a person fluent in Japanese at the head, I'd wonder why a Japanese ninja school would use Okinawan terminology...  Were there Okinawan ninja that no one has heard of until now?  Curious...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> * Were there Okinawan ninja that no one has heard of until now?  Curious...
> *



Nope.


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Severe bone-crushing tournament training?   *




Sounds like a Frank Dux thing


----------



## Matt Stone

Well, with all these new ninja traditions (first Togakure, then Bujinkan and the Takamatsuden, then the Genbukan, then the additional "X-kans," then the Iga, Koga, etc., ryu, and now the Saito-ryu to boot) springing up, it makes me fearful to return to Japan...  Hell, there must have been ninja all around me the entire time I was there!!! :wah:

But I should probably shut up, since all the ninjas out there may send a contract out on me for making such disrespectful comments and calling their not-so-secret art into question...  :uhohh:

Whatever.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Tatsukin

Enjoyable stuff.  You gentlemen are really passionate.  I love it.  I will have to check back again and see how the discussion is going.

Aloha, 

Christopher Whitehead
Nidan
Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu Academy
Chief Instructor
Nenriki Chiryoku Dojo


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## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Well, with all these new ninja traditions (first Togakure, then Bujinkan and the Takamatsuden, then the Genbukan, then the additional "X-kans," then the Iga, Koga, etc., ryu, and now the Saito-ryu to boot) springing up, it makes me fearful to return to Japan...  Hell, there must have been ninja all around me the entire time I was there!!! :wah:
> 
> But I should probably shut up, since all the ninjas out there may send a contract out on me for making such disrespectful comments and calling their not-so-secret art into question...  :uhohh:
> 
> Whatever.
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *



You mean you didn't notice all the "Ninja" while you were here?
What about the Samurai and Geisha?
Don't tell me you missed them too...... 

(To real Ninjutsu people: Not rippin' on ya'll......I have 2 friends that study NinjUtsu, one of which I have known for almost 20 years)


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## RyuShiKan

One of my favorite Ninjas........Mr. Neko Ninja


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## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *As for the legitimacy of "ninja" schools, I will say for the record that I think the so-called "ninja" schools are a bunch of hooey.  I don't believe, for a single minute, that they are "authentic" traditions.  Every "ninja master" has had an extensive MA background known publicly before they became known as "ninja."  Sure, go ahead, use the convenient excuse that "that's how ninjas operate - you never know their secrets" or some other Hollywood crap.  I don't believe the Bujinkan or any of the splinter groups therefrom are legitimate ryuha.  But if folks want to run about thinking they are ninja, that's just fine.  My 7 year old son does it, so why can't they? *



Just to caveat and qualify my earlier comments...

While I don't believe that the alleged ninjutsu traditions that are in existence today are necessarily the legitimate heirs to the ninja traditions of several hundred years ago, I do not believe they should be disallowed to practice what they believe to be legitimate arts...  I have found it amusing in recent years to see the amount of non-ninjutsu arts that are taught by these "ninja" schools.  If they want to call themselves ninja, fine.  For the most part they seem to leave everyone alone and keep to themselves.  The more honorable ones among them don't make claims to ridiculous titles, ranks or backgrounds.  The ones among them that _do_ lay claim to mystical claims or magical backgrounds appear to be policed up rather quickly by their own ranks...

I have no gripes with folks that want to connect themselves to the long dead traditions of old Japan.  When I was a Mason, there were folks that wanted more than anything to identify with the Knights Templar.  Fine.  Whatever floats your boat.

My gripes are, as ever, with the folks that just can't leave things as they are in the real world, and who feel a need to embellish their real training, often only to draw in more paying students...

It is my fervent hope that Mr. Phelps and the rest of his ninja clan are legitimate.  It would be a nice breath of fresh air.  However, if Gozanryu speaks as one of the Saito-ryu tradition, I fear the worst...

I am further amused at Mr. Whitehead's lack of support or denial toward Mr. Phelps.  Sometimes what is not said is as important as what is said...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Don,
> 
> With all your Budo/Ninjutsu connections can you find any info on this style of "NinjItsu"?
> I have looked all over my books on Japanese Martial History and haven't found squat. You would think with a 1,000 year lineage there would be something.*



Nope, not a thing. There is  _nothing_ in _any_ Japanese source that can back up their claims. All my requests for some sort of proof have only been met with excuses. As far as I can tell, the whole art stated with a guy named Mark Saito sr in America. No evidence that he actually learned martial arts of any type from his family has been presented. Talked about as if it existed, yes. But no proof that the art existed before the event of disco music has been presented so that other people can see it for themselves.

And several things like their use of bad Japanese, the Shaolin priests they connect to their art, etc, set off alarm bells in my mind. More than one respected martial arts scholar has said they believed the art was created in Hawaii, and Wayne Muromoto even offered to look over their Japanese sources if they would let him. His offer was met with silence.

What I want to know is why Phelps suddenly can't answer questions about him for himself. It would be much more reliable than other people. I am sure that if what they say turns out to be false, then the explination will be given that it was a student mistake.:shrug:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *  Nope, not a thing. There is  nothing in any Japanese source that can back up their claims. *



Interesting..




> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *  All my requests for some sort of proof have only been met with excuses. As far as I can tell, the whole art stated with a guy named Mark Saito sr in America. No evidence that he actually learned martial arts of any type from his family has been presented. Talked about as if it existed, yes. But no proof that the art existed before the event of disco music has been presented so that other people can see it for themselves.
> 
> And several things like their use of bad Japanese, the Shaolin priests they connect to their art, etc, set off alarm bells in my mind. More than one respected martial arts scholar has said they believed the art was created in Hawaii, and Wayne Muromoto even offered to look over their Japanese sources if they would let him. His offer was met with silence. *




What is it the Japanese say??? less is more.


----------



## Jill666

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *(To real Ninjutsu people: Not rippin' on ya'll......I have 2 friends that study NinjUtsu, one of which I have known for almost 20 years) *



I'm studying Ninjutsu, and lauging my *** off over here.  
Off to polish my shuriken now.


----------



## gozanryu

"ifGozanryu speaks as one of the Saito-ryu tradition, I fear the worst..."  

No Matt, I dont speak for the Senseii. I speak for me. I am not, in the purvey of this discussion, in anyones "camp". My position is simple, no matter how complicated you (i am sure it is that attorney thing) try to make it. The accused has more supporting evidence than you do. Period. You have nothing but heresay (did i spell that right?) I see, and understand your argument. I do not off-handedly discount it. I am suggesting that there is that chance that the Man is exactly who he says he is as far as his claims are concerned. He has reasonably supported his position. You have not. In my *opinion* it is upon you to now support your opinions with fact. It is also my opinion that it is of interest your aggression and disdain on this subject. It seems adolescent of you to question my opinion because I have only been registered on this board for a couple of days. Does that somehow mitigate my opinion on this subject?
 Matt, you are a educated man. You are VERY passionate about this subject. I stipulate to that. If you stow your arrogance and attitude, spend some time re-reading the posts, I think it will be apparent to you the "bent" you have put in this discussion.


----------



## jdmills

I did find this on the net:

  This set of exercises comes from a fantastic source, Shannon
  Kawika Phelps.  Shannons story is fascinating, and way too 
  long to tell in a small news letter, so we will skip to the chase so 
  to speak. He was in a diving maneuver in Pudget Sounds while 
  he was a part of the U. S. Navy Seals, and it was a night dive. 
  Through some unfortunate set of circumstances, he was 
  trapped 90 ft. underwater, with his dive buddy leaving him to 
  return to the surface. The problem was his buddy had the only 
  tank. They were doing a buddy dive, and sharing one tank. In 
  total darkness, Shannons last conscious thought was to break 
  the chemical light on the top of his vest , and then let go . . . It 
  took approximately 5 minutes from the time that his buddy had 
  reached the surface till when they were able to retrieve 
  Shannons body, and get him back to the surface. They are 
  trained extensively in Seal Teams for diving accidents. They are 
  taught to say I FEEL FINE! when they know that they have 
  been in trouble and are being revived. The reason is, if they 
  have an air embolism in their lungs, they can not make the F 
  sound.

  He remembers little about the whole experience, but he does 
  remember shouting out the words, I FEEL FINE!

  He was taken to shore and stayed in recovery where they told 
  him it would take 3 to 6 months before he might gain most of 
  the use of his lungs. However, it did not look good for him to get 
  full recovery. He did the set of breathing exercises that are 
  shown in this video, The Taoist Five. It took him two weeks to 
  gain full recovery, and he was back on active duty in three 
  weeks. These exercises work. To order a video, contact us at
  toll free(877) 927-7234.

I'm a certified Divemaster.  I can't figure out why you would dive with only one tank, let alone why you would stay in 90 feet of water while your dive buddy returned to the surface with the only tank.  I'm not a SEAL, but that just seems STUPID to me.  The website that posted this was: http://www.spiritaloha.com/ftp/sept2000.pdf


----------



## gozanryu

*"he was trapped under 90 feet of water"* 

might account for why he "would stay in 90 feet of water while your dive buddy returned to the surface with the only tank"


----------



## jdmills

Precisely why you do not do a dive like this with one tank for two divers.  Even if you are only using one tank for some obscure reason, both divers should wear a tank just in case there was an emergency.  Also, it would seem to make more sense for the buddy to leave the tank with the trapped diver and do an emergency swimming ascent (very difficult from 90' of water but probably possible, particularly for someone in as good shape as a Navy SEAL) since it definitely beats the alternative of leaving a trapped diver in 90' of water with no air.


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by Withered Soul _
> *Ones that really annoy me are ones who will throw their hardest best punch and claim it to be their weakest. Also people who do it really half-assed. *



I can't stand the ones who like to pick on the weakest link and gets their jollies on being the "Bad ***". :soapbox:


----------



## Don Roley

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *"ifGozanryu speaks as one of the Saito-ryu tradition, I fear the worst..."
> 
> No Matt, I dont speak for the Senseii. I speak for me. I am not, in the purvey of this discussion, in anyones "camp". My position is simple, no matter how complicated you (i am sure it is that attorney thing) try to make it. The accused has more supporting evidence than you do. Period.*



So where is the proof that Saito ryu existed prior to disco and/or in Japan at any point? How about some objective source to back up Phelp's claims of Japanese profeciency, time spent overseas, etc? These are sources I am in a position to help verify. But so far, not one seems to want to present anythign but excuses and arguments.

I think it a shame that Phelps only posted once and now seems to be reluctant to answer any of these hard questions for himself, relying instead on his students.


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *The title "Professor" seems to be spreading outside of the FMA community. *



Is "Professor" a "new" thing or an "old" thing - title wise?  I have heard of a man who is "Professor Kaito", but he has been teaching for over 60 years!


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *My teacher will come in wearing a pair of shorts and sandals with a Santa Cruz Slugs T-Shirt on drinking a Diet Pepsi.and he is Asian! *



I still like to walk into a studio and see it set up in a traditional way and have the teacher wearing traditional garb, not shorts and t-shirts. It's a better atmosphere.


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *He is a 10th Dan too!  His bio is a load of crap. He is a certified case officer of the CIA anti terrorist task force.  Riiighhhttt!  If there was ever such a position. Case officers work under deep cover and would NEVER reveal any association with the "Company".  ONLY the FAKE would flaunt his CIA connection.  He was also in the special forces too. *



My father worked for the CIA as a "Case Officer", that is the correct title - they are not "agents" as seen in the movies.  You are correct in that the "Case Officers" are deep undercover.  When my father left the Agency - he was offered a choice to be able to go public with his name and title with less of a "pension" or keep all the benefits of the Agency and stay under cover.  So you are both correct in some way.


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by Don Roley _
> *Speaking for myself, I think of the whole "more Asian than the Asians" as a form of extreme stereotyping. I live in Japan and have studied in some pretty traditional dojos, and none of them come close to the level of kitsch that this place has. In fact, the best dojos all seem to radiate a sense of understatement and simplicity that is the complete opposite of this.  *



I work in a very traditional Japanese business that has been here in the states for 60 years and has really never changed.  It is somewhat understated - they go for the minimal look.  However, what they have is very elaborate - art work, statues and rugs.  It also incorporates a great deal of nature within its walls - waterfalls, live trees, stone walkways with planted grasses, etc...  So understated or minimal does not mean cold and empty. :shrug:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Tasuko _
> *I still like to walk into a studio and see it set up in a traditional way and have the teacher wearing traditional garb, not shorts and t-shirts. It's a better atmosphere. *




I have seen very few dojo in America set up in the "traditional" way.
In fact my teachers dojo, like many others,  back in Okinawa was basically a shack made out of cinder blocks with a steel roof on it. 
Considering the Karate gi is a rather new invention borrowed from Judo I am not sure what a traditional karate gi looks like.


----------



## TLH3rdDan

wow you guys have stirred up a hornets nest of newbies to defend the ninja master who cant speak for himself... by the way did anyone check out his lineage page and see the wonderful picture of his mystic shaolin master lol


----------



## Tasuko

You guys seem to be going back and forth on this "Sensei" and his personal history...  I looked at his website and looked directly at his "Lineage" page and saw his MA background and none of what you guys are arguing about is in his MA background.  So what the deal? 

I looked at his personal history on his website and read all the hard to believe claims.  But it's not my place to say that because I can't imagine one man doing all that, and he may have, that his MA background isn't any good.  I've heard some wonderful things about Bow Sim Mark in Boston.  I've heard she is a great Sifu.

With everyone checking out his personal history, has anyone checked out his MA history and contacted any of his teachers?


----------



## gozanryu

Jd, I see what you are talking about now. 

Don, I am not discussing the Ninja thing here. Im talking about attacks on his carreer and schoolastic claims. The Ninja part has been beat to death, agree?


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *One of my favorite Ninjas........Mr. Neko Ninja *



I love it! :rofl:


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *The Ninja part has been beat to death, agree? *




Ninja part beaten to death................several people have asked for some sort of information that would link them to Japan. Some are not even on this board. Your people have balked.
You would think with a 1,000 year lineage there would be some information.


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Tasuko _
> *
> With everyone checking out his personal history, has anyone checked out his MA history and contacted any of his teachers? *




Don Roley and I have both tried to find some info over here on a Saito family style of Ninj*I*tsu, but have not been able to find a single reference to it.


----------



## gozanryu

RyuShiKan- I should have been more specific. Don has experience with this subject on other boards. Thats who I was addressing. If you go read those posts, you will see that it is indeed "beat to death. I think we (don and I) are actually forbade from revisiting it.:asian:


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> [BNo Matt, I dont speak for the Senseii.[/B]



It is "sensei" with only one "i" in Romaji...  Just a note, FYI.  Take it or leave it...



> *I speak for me. I am not, in the purvey of this discussion, in anyones "camp".*



I understand that you speak for yourself, but you are a student of the person in question, and a black belt to boot.  That places you firmly in the position of supporting your teacher and his claims (because to do otherwise would cause you to have to call into question a number of things, potentially).



> *My position is simple, no matter how complicated you (i am sure it is that attorney thing) try to make it.*



I'm not an attorney.  Never said nor implied that I was.  I am a military paralegal (says so in my profile), that's all.



> *The accused has more supporting evidence than you do. Period. You have nothing but heresay (did i spell that right?)*



But you see, Mr. Phelps is _not_ the accused, but the prosecution...  He has made a certain claim, an allegation, and it then becomes his burden to provide proof.  All I have to do is poke holes in the story to bring reasonable doubt...  The burden of evidence is not on me to disprove his claims, in the same manner in which it is not the defense's requirement to disprove, necessarily, the claims of the prosecution - merely to cause the jury to believe that the prosecution failed in providing sufficient evidence to substantiate their allegations...



> *I see, and understand your argument. I do not off-handedly discount it. I am suggesting that there is that chance that the Man is exactly who he says he is as far as his claims are concerned.*



And you will note, upon further review of my previous comments, that I stated that he would be able to substantiate that claim.  I really, truly would hate to see yet another brick in the overall wall of the martial arts community come out because it was weak and useless...  We have enough people making asses of themselves publicly by claiming to be the sole inheritor to ancient, long dead, Egyptian/Mayan/Atlantean martial traditions, we really don't need former veterans, alleged former Government employees, making themselves into something larger than life and then falling flat when asked to prove it.  I get tired of seeing so many fakes and frauds...  The romantic part of me yearns to see more legitimate wise men from the tops of misty mountains.  But the reality is that those who claim such things are nearly 100% of the time trying to bullshido somebody...

Sure, there's a chance he is who he claims.  He can help to prove that very easily.  But the burden is his, not mine, to provide such proof.



> *He has reasonably supported his position. You have not. In my opinion it is upon you to now support your opinions with fact.*



No, he really hasn't.  He has made unsubstantiated claims (i.e. military service without dates of said service; claims to high ranking in multiple martial arts without providing times spent in training in those arts, etc.), nothing more.  If the prosecuting attorney walked into court and made his argument that "Mr. X killed Mr. Y, and you have to believe me," but failed to provide motive, method and opportunity, he has no case...  Similarly, allegations have been made but not supported.  All I asked for was a timeline.  If Mr. Phelps could provide a timeline that seemed to support his claims, I would be far more inclined to believe he is what he says he is.  Failing that, I have to stand by my defense that his story is simply too farfetched to believe.



> *It is also my opinion that it is of interest your aggression and disdain on this subject. It seems adolescent of you to question my opinion because I have only been registered on this board for a couple of days. Does that somehow mitigate my opinion on this subject?*



It doesn't mitigate the veracity of your opinion, however it does call into question the motivation for same.  You show up immediately after questions are posed, defending your teacher, as have so many others on this board and elsewhere.  It is a common cyber-tactic of questionable teachers, that has been so done to death that it is anticipated and expected.  I am _not_ saying that this is in fact what you are doing, simply that the appearance of your presence can be interpreted in that manner.



> *Matt, you are a educated man. You are VERY passionate about this subject. I stipulate to that. If you stow your arrogance and attitude, spend some time re-reading the posts, I think it will be apparent to you the "bent" you have put in this discussion. *



I don't remember offering arrogance and attitude.  The "bent" of this thread is simply one of disbelief awaiting proof.  If you consider it arrogant that I would scoff at claims that I have heard in books, movies, TV dramas and elsewhere, all known to be larger than life, then so be it.  Not really my problem.

As for questioning how this history fits in with questioning his martial background, this history is offered hand in hand with his martial biography, thereby implying that _he_ is offering it part and parcel as support for his martial background.  He could have just as easily said nothing about his SEAL and CIA background and simply said "I trained with the Saito family from XXXX to XXXX and am ranked as XXX.  I trained with Bow Sim Mark from XXXX to XXXX and am ranked as XXX."  But that appears to have been insufficient for his purposes.  I immediately see red flags thrown up whenever *anyone* cites their military experience alongside their martial training.  They are not mutually inclusive, nor are they mutually supportive.  They should stand separately, or not at all...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan

A good look at a traditional Karate dojo in Okinawa.
Seated at table from right to left: Nakamura Shigeru-Okinawa Kempo, Oyata Seiyu-Ryukyu Kempo, Toma Shian.

Looks like a place to work out instead of some place to order sushi

(Notice the fancy décor and elaborate fixtures)


----------



## Tasuko

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Don Roley and I have both tried to find some info over here on a Saito family style of NinjItsu, but have not been able to find a single reference to it. *



:yinyang:  I got into this thread by accident - looking for information on Bow Sim Mark and her school in Boston - but just to give you a little help. 

I called the WuShu Institute in Boston and spoke with a Ms. Cecelia Wong who said she is a long time assistant to Bow Sim Mark and after talking to her about the school I asked if she knew this Shannon Kawika Phelps that you guys are discussing.  

Ms. Wong told me that Sifu Bow Sim Mark has been a friend and teacher to "Shane", she calles him, for over 14 years and he was actually in Boston for a special event with Sifu Bow Sim Mark a few weeks ago and he stayed on for a while for private study.

So that's one phone call made.  p.s.  I also asked how old she thought Mr. Phelps was since I've never met him and she said she thought he was in his 50's.

Have fun with this guys, I'm going to continue my research on Bow Sim Mark in other threads. :cheers:


----------



## Kirk

How about this guy?  What do y'all think?

Click here


----------



## jdmills

He's got kenpo beat BAD - more than 100,000 techniques.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *How about this guy?  What do y'all think?
> 
> Click here *


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Wmarden

He's got balls claiming that much experience/ranking.   And imagine how strong he is to carry that incredible load of ******** around.


----------



## Cthulhu

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *How about this guy?  What do y'all think?
> 
> Click here *



Wow!  A _Soke *Dr.* Grandmaster_!!!  And elsewhere on the site, he's also a *Professor* Grandmaster!

If he's achieved mastery of jiu-jitsu [sic], ken-jitsu [sic], iai-jitsu [sic], and iai-do, then he should have no trouble showing us all those menkyo.

And he can jump 9-feet high!

Sign me up!

Then shoot me!

Cthulhu


----------



## Kirk

What do y'all think about this guy?

He seems sincere enough .. but all of the certificates he's posted
on the net are ones that can be purchased on ebay.  With one
exception, a yellow belt cert.  That's not to say he didn't earn
them ... just that we can all get the same certs with no work at 
all.


----------



## chufeng

> A Humble Man
> 
> Yet with all these accomplishments, he remains a humble man, unsatisfied with his accomplishments.




:shrug: 
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *What do y'all think about this guy?
> 
> He seems sincere enough .. but all of the certificates he's posted
> on the net are ones that can be purchased on ebay.  With one
> exception, a yellow belt cert.  That's not to say he didn't earn
> them ... just that we can all get the same certs with no work at
> all. *




Odd you should mention his certificates since we had/have a "Soke" :rofl:  here on MT that has the exact same certificates.........anybody recall a cat named Chiduce????


----------



## kkbb

Did anyone notice that some of the pics claiming to be him, he's black, and others hes asian?

Maybe I'm seeing things?


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *I have a friend whose teacher has apparently bought into his own hype, just like so many others in the MA community.
> 
> One of the things that really p*sses me off are the non-Asian instructors that try to be more Asian than the Asians!  With the "it's an honor for you to do XYZ," and "I forbid you to do XYZ," it is ridiculous to the extreme!
> 
> It is one thing entirely to embrace a foreign culture so much so that you begin to understand it at a nearly native level.  Fine.  But when a person tries to be more ethnic than people from a particular ethnic group, they only succeed in looking silly.
> 
> And so it goes for this numbskull...
> 
> He is playing the role of the ancient karate master to the hilt, and it burns my a$$ like a 3 foot flame.
> 
> There was another guy I knew, years back, who would sit on an elavated dais in a chair and watch his students practice.  He had this home-made throne and occupied it like he was some warlord of old.
> 
> What a hoot.  Even his own students eventually started making fun of him, especially after he started insisting on their use of the title "Master" whenever they spoke to him.
> 
> Anybody have any similar experiences?
> 
> Gambarimasu.
> :asian: *


I personally think it's funny.

I mean, to see a white guy with the zen thing going, the ninja phase, and the "how dare you dishonor me" type demeanor...  It becomes a culture to itself.  It's like those type of guys that think they're "gansta" and know about all the problems in the "hood" and the ghetto when they live in the suburbs. :rofl: 

I know this one guy...  He first was a Buddhist, then a Taoist...  Problem was, he didn't know the first thing to Buddhism or Taoism, just started meditating with candles around him.  He did the traditional shrine clapping custom every damn minute, bowed to every person of Asian descent (should've seen their facial expressions :rofl: ) and greeted them in first Chinese, Korean, then Japanese.  It was pretty funny actually.

One thing I have that not many other people have is that I can usually tell what people's ethnicity is.  I can tell whether they're Korean, from China, Tawian, Vietnam, Japan, Scandanavia, Russia, etc.  Some weird talent I guess.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *He is a 10th Dan too!  His bio is a load of crap. He is a certified case officer of the CIA anti terrorist task force.  Riiighhhttt!  If there was ever such a position. Case officers work under deep cover and would NEVER reveal any association with the "Company".  ONLY the FAKE would flaunt his CIA connection.  He was also in the special forces too. *


ROFL!

He was in the Army Special Forces during Vietnam...  Special Forces was better known as the Green Berets at the time, and you just can't switch from the Army to the Navy like that. :rofl: It says he's enlisted, and became an officer in the Navy SEALs.  Problem was, if he did serve in Vietnam under the Army, he would be too old to go to first switch from the Army to Navy then go to an academy or go to ROTC training or any green to gold program.  I doubt he was just comissioned but who knows with his decorated history.  He mastered all situations in multiple disciplines.  He's fluent in Mandarin after two years (sorry, Mandarin is not really a language that one can be as fluent as he claims in two years), and Stanford has never heard of him.  Like you said, a person so high yet lucrative in the CIA wouldn't brag about such a title. :rofl: 

He has various degrees (BA and Masters) from Stanford, Harvard, and Yale. :rofl:  Never knew there was a Masters of Divinity from Yale.


What's funnier is his lineages.


----------



## tonbo

I wish to state at this time that I believe all of the claims made by all of these guys.  Really.  I do.

I, myself, am a 50th degree master (no, Grandmaster......NO, SOKE) of "Oh-shi".  Okay, okay.....so the style consists of one defensive move, and one offensive move.  However, they have been distilled down from centuries of tradition and combat tested techniques.  Sure, all you other guys make claims about your techniques and lineages, but mine is best.  Really.

I have a hand-signed certificate, written in the purest of ink from the temple of Oh-shi itself, hand-written on pure parchment, all done by the founder of the system.  He was very old at the time, but the ceremony was phenominal.  He signed my certificate, gave me the thumbs-up, and said, "You got it, Jack!".

No, I won't show you the certificate.  The ink ran and smudged a bit when my puppy peed on it.  I am having some of my current Oh-shi ninjas see if they can travel back in time to get the founder to make a copy for me.  I will keep that one in better shape.  *Then* I'll show you the certificate.  Trust me.

Oh, yeah.  And those Kumite guys?  I've beaten them all.  They just won't acknowledge that fact, since it would prove the validity of my claims of superiority.

As a matter of fact, a very little known fact, all other styles are derived from Oh-Shi.  Even the ones that are not created yet.  All styles.  That's right.  And no, you can't look it up.  You have to take my word for it.  I only state that historical fact here, because I trust the citizens of MT to guard that knowledge (or my ninjas will have to kill you).  Even *joking* that you would print such things is courting death.  Trust me.  Death on swift wings.  Bad stuff.  Oh, and I'll sic the IRS after you, too.

Like I said, I trust and believe in the masters, as I am one of them.  Superior to them all, but one of them nevertheless.  I am the inspiration for Mr. Miyagi, the Ninja Turtles, Bruce Lee (you *did* know he was a fake, right?), and every ninja ever portrayed.  I rule.

And then......I woke up.  :rofl: 

Okay, so.....for those who may have missed it......this is a JOKE.

I really *did* learn Oh-Shi, though.  Here's how it goes:  

1)  Defensive move:  Hold one hand vertically in front of the bridge of your nose, resting your thumb directly under the nose.  Hold your other hand in front of your groin, cupping it and guarding it.

2)  Offensive move:  Use one hand to strike with a double eye poke, using the first two fingers to thrust into the eyes.  With the other hand, strike with a straight punch to the groin.

Those are the basics of Oh-Shi.  You are now all masters.  Go forth and train hard; build on the system, using movement as you will......but keep the attack and defense pure.

Want a certificate?  Let me know....I'll draw one in crayon for you.  :rofl: 

Sorry for the bandwidth....but I had to do it.  The ninjas told me so.

Oh, yeah....did I mention that I worked at NinjaBurger?  :rofl: 

Peace--


----------



## gozanryu

Whats really funny MartialArtist is that he was out of the service after Viet Nam, went to college,  went in the Navy, then was commisioned in the Navy. Whats also funny is that I know two of his teammates who were in the Navy with Him. It would be funny for you to say Stanford has never heard of him, as his diploma hangs in his home next to all his other degrees. There is a funny book you can get called "Demon Chaser" In it you will see pictures of Sensei Phelps in Vietnam in 1969, pictures of him in uniform, "ringing out" BUD/S graduation in 1979, then in 1984 with SEAL TRident, pictures in uniform with General George Patton Jr. Pictures with Admiral Christoph at OCS graduation in Newport, RI in 1981. Pictures in Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Masada, Palmyra, Petra, Damascus etc. Also pictures of him being ordained as an Episcopal Priest. Pictures with the Fu Family in Guangzhou, China. Hmmm


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *Whats really funny MartialArtist is that he was out of the service after Viet Nam, went to college,  went in the Navy, then was commisioned in the Navy. Whats also funny is that I know two of his teammates who were in the Navy with Him. It would be funny for you to say Stanford has never heard of him, as his diploma hangs in his home next to all his other degrees. There is a funny book you can get called "Demon Chaser" In it you will see pictures of Sensei Phelps in Vietnam in 1969, pictures of him in uniform, "ringing out" BUD/S graduation in 1979, then in 1984 with SEAL TRident, pictures in uniform with General George Patton Jr. Pictures with Admiral Christoph at OCS graduation in Newport, RI in 1981. Pictures in Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Masada, Palmyra, Petra, Damascus etc. Also pictures of him being ordained as an Episcopal Priest. Pictures with the Fu Family in Guangzhou, China. Hmmm *


He has all his degrees at home?  NO WONDER I COULDN'T FIND THEM!  But seriously, all of his colleges being from top schools (Ivy League and such) such as Harvard and a top school like Stanford = genious.  Not only that, that was AFTER he was an enlisted private.  Wow.  Being in 'Nam, being out of service, enlisting in the Navy, being comissioned, then becomming a SEAL, retiring, then becomming a top CIA executive all in a timespan of 20 years?  Wow.  Phelps is probably 45 tops, and he must've been like 15 when he enlisted.  Maybe he was one of those boys during the Civil War who lied about their age.  Either that or the US Army accepted him because he was so good. :rofl:


----------



## gozanryu

He's actually in his fifties. And just to help you with the math, 1969 was 35 (thirty-five) years ago.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *He's actually in his fifties. And just to help you with the math, 1969 was 35 (thirty-five) years ago. *


He'd have to be at least 52 to have been in 'Nam.

And with his credentials, and being bright enough to go to Yale, Harvard, and Stanford, he should've aced the ASVAB.


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *Whats really funny MartialArtist is that he was out of the service after Viet Nam, went to college,  went in the Navy, then was commisioned in the Navy. Whats also funny is that I know two of his teammates who were in the Navy with Him. It would be funny for you to say Stanford has never heard of him, as his diploma hangs in his home next to all his other degrees. There is a funny book you can get called "Demon Chaser" In it you will see pictures of Sensei Phelps in Vietnam in 1969, pictures of him in uniform, "ringing out" BUD/S graduation in 1979, then in 1984 with SEAL TRident, pictures in uniform with General George Patton Jr. Pictures with Admiral Christoph at OCS graduation in Newport, RI in 1981. Pictures in Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Masada, Palmyra, Petra, Damascus etc. Also pictures of him being ordained as an Episcopal Priest. Pictures with the Fu Family in Guangzhou, China. Hmmm *



Again, the life experiences he claims really disallow much time to dedicate to martial arts training...  What with military service during wartime, college, more military service in special operations units, then more college, then all the CIA time and overseas work, and to top it off, seminary school at some point...

So where did he find time to train?  Or sleep, for that matter...  And all of this by his fifties (since he has been teaching for a number of years, right?  That would push back the final date for accomplishing much of this, as well as his ninjitsu mastery, at least that far...).

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

To even get into an Ivy League School takes dedication AND apptitude.  Between all his studying (LOTS OF STUDYING TO GET DEGREES FROM YALE, HARVARD, STANFORD, ETC.), his military training, his training as a CIA operative or whatever he claims to be: he still has time to learn from all these great masters!


----------



## MartialArtist

The entire website on the "Temple Ninja Master" whatever is hilarious.  The entire school looks like a kid's room during the ninja phase (a lot of us have had a ninja phase) where it's an attempt to look "Eastern" but ends up having the weirdest combinations such as a Chinese artifact imitation on Japanese furniture, etc.


----------



## Tapps

Hello Folks,

very entertaining over here.

My only comment is:

Go rent THE LAST DRAGON.

Bruce leroy is my hero      :asian:


----------



## gozanryu

Matt, I know, I know! Its UNBELEIVABLE! Ive seen the photos, Ive met people who have known him for decades. With all seriousness, the ISBN for the book is 1-891764-00-04. If you dont want to buy it, I'll send you a copy. (you gotta send it back) Ninjitsu (Ninjutsu) aside, Dojo style aside. (I kinda like the museum/dojo look) 

MartialArtist, I only wish I.d had a room like that when I was a kid. Funny that you would question his "style" of Dojo setup. Hmm, when all else fails, question the choice of wall paper. If your ever in town, you might want to stop by and see the place. I think you might be surprised by the quality of some of the pieces in his collection. I note that you lack precision when describing the "imitation" chinese artifact.


----------



## jdmills

Ken,

If you believe he is legitimat, so be it.  You know him better than any of us do so why not just let it rest?  You have to admit, all of those credentials together create a pretty unbelievable package.  I'm not saying it is not possible, just very, very difficult.  However, if Mr. Phelps is in his 50's, and he was in Viet Nam in '69 (34, not 35 years ago - to help YOU with the math) that would mean that he was in his late teens or very early 20's in '69 and in his late 20's or early 30's when he graduated from BUD/s.  

Your point about how he decorates his school is accurate.  That is entirely up to him.  His choice proves nothing regarding his martial arts ability.  

Nobody here has been able to refute any of the claims.  I have personally verified (as best I am able) that he was a Navy SEAL.  That does not make him a 10th degree black belt though and it certainly would have been very difficult to earn the credentials that he claims and devote the time necessary to rise to such a high rank.  Again, I am not saying it is impossible, just difficult, and until his claims can be disproven, the fact that his SEAL training checks out carries a significant amount of weight with me.  Others can make their own decisions.


----------



## jdmills

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *There is a funny book you can get called "Demon Chaser" In it you will see pictures of Sensei Phelps in Vietnam in 1969, pictures of him in uniform, "ringing out" BUD/S graduation in 1979, then in 1984 with SEAL TRident, pictures in uniform with General George Patton Jr. Pictures with Admiral Christoph at OCS graduation in Newport, RI in 1981. Pictures in Syria, Egypt, Afghanistan, Masada, Palmyra, Petra, Damascus etc. Also pictures of him being ordained as an Episcopal Priest. Pictures with the Fu Family in Guangzhou, China. Hmmm *



That's a lot of pictures.  General George Patton Jr. died in 1945 of injuries from a car accident.   (???).

Now I am confused.  How is this possible?


----------



## Matt Stone

Photoshop?  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## chufeng

> General George Patton Jr. died in 1945



No, that was George S. Patton, Sr.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## jdmills

No, it wasn't unless the following websites are wrong:

http://www.who2.com/georgespattonjr.html

http://gi.grolier.com/wwii/wwii_patton.html

http://www.warmuseum.net/hallofworldwarii/GEORGEPATTON.NET/

Search the internet, there are hundreds of them. It's possible that the picture is of the son but that is NOT what the post specifically stated.  It SPECIFICALLY said General George Patton Jr. and he died in 1945.


----------



## qizmoduis

This may or may not have relevance, but here are the details of the book "Demon Chaser":

------------
Demon Chaser: Five Mountain Path of the True Warrior Spirit
Author: Shannon K. Phelps 

Binding: Paperback, 200 pages 
Publisher: Temple of the Full Autumn Moon
Published Date: 12/01/1997
List: USD $24.95
ISBN: 1891764004

------------
http://www.addall.com/Browse/Detail/1891764004.html

Unfortunately, such a work cannot be used as corroboration in this particular instance.


----------



## gozanryu

The George Patton in question is Major General George Patton (retired), Nephew of Ruth, George's (of WW2 fame) Sister.

The reason I have not let it rest is simple. People like to talk smack with impunity. Here is a man who has had a Career many dream of, ditto for the education. So, naturally, it must all be fake. Well, guess what, its not. If you see the pictures, check around a bit, it all comes together. He is exactly who he says he is. The MA part is up for authenticity debate, as far as the style, no question. Is the story incredulous? Yes. Does it check out? Yes. any of you really think that just anybody can stroll onto the quarter deck at Coronado? Do you really think this man co-erced all of these Generals and Admirals for photo-ops?
 (while impersonating a Naval officer.) I'm not trying to beat it to death, I always look for the truth, whether it supports, or confounds, my point of view.


----------



## chufeng

> No, it wasn't unless the following websites are wrong:



Thanks for the correction

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *Matt, I know, I know! Its UNBELEIVABLE! Ive seen the photos, Ive met people who have known him for decades. With all seriousness, the ISBN for the book is 1-891764-00-04. If you dont want to buy it, I'll send you a copy. (you gotta send it back) Ninjitsu (Ninjutsu) aside, Dojo style aside. (I kinda like the museum/dojo look)
> 
> MartialArtist, I only wish I.d had a room like that when I was a kid. Funny that you would question his "style" of Dojo setup. Hmm, when all else fails, question the choice of wall paper. If your ever in town, you might want to stop by and see the place. I think you might be surprised by the quality of some of the pieces in his collection. I note that you lack precision when describing the "imitation" chinese artifact. *


So you're saying the way he arranges his studio is of no relevence?  Just look at the way it's set up.  Instructor is kneeling down on his own little platform, and the school is more furnished than a 5-star sushi joint.  They don't even do that in Asia, but he's trying to set the image up.

Do you know the man personally?  If you do, what do you have to say about his teachings?  I don't know about you, but almost everyone here doubts him.  Can you clear it up please?

Try to make a hypothetical situation from reading his biography.  He probably enlisted in the Army when he was 18-20.  To get in the Special Forces takes quite a while, even back in the day.  Got out.  He was still in his twenties.  Then he enlisted in the Navy.  Became a SEAL and was comissioned...  Comissioned through what green-to-gold program?  He was in the Navy for seven years.  Then he became an officer for the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces in the Golan Heights, Syria and Southern Lebanon.  He probably wasn't in the Navy during that time, because peace-keeping isn't really what the SEALs are used for.  He then became a case officer in the in the counter-terrorist task force.  Hmmm...  He enlisted in the Army, enlisted in the Navy, became a SEAL and was comissioned.  He never went to college as far as we know up to that point...  And a college degree is required for 99.99% of all officers in any branch, nonetheless a certified case officer in the CIA.  He then spent two days in a monastery.  Finally, he goes to college (how did he get into Stanford after all the time off?) and got his BA.  He has a masters from Harvard.  A masters degree means a minumum 6 years most of the time and sometimes even more.  He then has a Masters degree from Yale, which means another 6+ years.  That is unless he also majored in those subjects during his studying at Stanford or Harvard.  Nonetheless, the minimum for earning all of those degrees would be 10 years I'd say.  Don Roley or Ryushikan or anyone in Japan can clarify on whether anyone in Japan has ever heard of Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu.  During that time span of balancing his military, government official life, and his martial arts studies, I logically can't see how he could do that much.

And yeah, people can buy "Stanford Degrees" off the internet.  Anyway, if you want, you can go to that website I posted on whether you can verify if he was a SEAL or not.

It looks like you've been to his school at least once, can you describe him and his teachings?


----------



## jdmills

Don't bother checking out the SEAL claim.  I did and it checks out.


----------



## gozanryu

"So you're saying the way he arranges his studio is of no relevence? Just look at the way it's set up. Instructor is kneeling down on his own little platform, and the school is more furnished than a 5-star sushi joint. They don't even do that in Asia, but he's trying to set the image up."

Yes, thats what I am saying. It is his dojo. Can he, or can he not, do what he wants with the decor?


"Do you know the man personally? If you do, what do you have to say about his teachings? I don't know about you, but almost everyone here doubts him. Can you clear it up please?"


Yes, I know him. I have been his student since 1995.  I dont know what, specifically, you mean by "doubt" him. I think the Art is the "real deal" as far as effecacy and application is concerned. I have met quite a few high ranking Sifu's and Sensei's who(m) think so to.

"Don Roley or Ryushikan or anyone in Japan can clarify on whether anyone in Japan has ever heard of Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu. During that time span of balancing his military, government official life, and his martial arts studies, I logically can't see how he could do that much."


We have been there and done that. No one that any of the aforementioned has contacted, as well as any written sources, can authenticate Saito Ninjitsu.


"And yeah, people can buy "Stanford Degrees" off the internet. Anyway, if you want, you can go to that website I posted on whether you can verify if he was a SEAL or not."

Ha! OK,


----------



## Matt Stone

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> *So you're saying the way he arranges his studio is of no relevence?  Just look at the way it's set up.  Instructor is kneeling down on his own little platform, and the school is more furnished than a 5-star sushi joint.  They don't even do that in Asia, but he's trying to set the image up.*



While I will be the first to say that things look too good to be true and far too James Bond-ish for me to believe it too readily, how the man decorates his school is up to him...  There was one instructor I knew once upon a time that taught out of a barely finished storefront - unfinished cement floor, exposed dry wall, etc.  But to him and his students it was "home."



> *Try to make a hypothetical situation from reading his biography.  He probably enlisted in the Army when he was 18-20.  To get in the Special Forces takes quite a while, even back in the day.  Got out.  He was still in his twenties.  Then he enlisted in the Navy.  Became a SEAL and was comissioned...  Comissioned through what green-to-gold program?  He was in the Navy for seven years.  Then he became an officer for the United Nations Peacekeeping Forces in the Golan Heights, Syria and Southern Lebanon.  He probably wasn't in the Navy during that time, because peace-keeping isn't really what the SEALs are used for.  He then became a case officer in the in the counter-terrorist task force.  Hmmm...  He enlisted in the Army, enlisted in the Navy, became a SEAL and was comissioned.  He never went to college as far as we know up to that point...  And a college degree is required for 99.99% of all officers in any branch, nonetheless a certified case officer in the CIA.  He then spent two days in a monastery.  Finally, he goes to college (how did he get into Stanford after all the time off?) and got his BA.  He has a masters from Harvard.  A masters degree means a minumum 6 years most of the time and sometimes even more.  He then has a Masters degree from Yale, which means another 6+ years.  That is unless he also majored in those subjects during his studying at Stanford or Harvard.  Nonetheless, the minimum for earning all of those degrees would be 10 years I'd say.*



I posted a similar timeline earlier in the thread...  Still waiting for Mr. Phelps to clear things up.  If he does, great.  It will shut all of us up on the issue.  If he doesn't, then we can assume whatever we like.  He doesn't "owe" us an explanation, but one would certainly be widely appreciated...  I think all of the things he claims _could_ be accomplished, but the issue isn't that they could be done, but that they could be done while simultaneously studying and mastering an obscure art that is relatively unheard of outside of Hawaii...



> *Don Roley or Ryushikan or anyone in Japan can clarify on whether anyone in Japan has ever heard of Shorinjin Ryu Saito Ninjitsu.  During that time span of balancing his military, government official life, and his martial arts studies, I logically can't see how he could do that much.*



Well, you can check Japan, but that doesn't mean that everybody has heard of everybody...  I can't believe I am playing Devil's Advocate on this one, but you could ask until you are blue in the face and still come away with nothing...



> *And yeah, people can buy "Stanford Degrees" off the internet.  Anyway, if you want, you can go to that website I posted on whether you can verify if he was a SEAL or not.*



Has anybody checked with the Registrar's Office of either of the universities he claims to hold Master's Degrees from?  I am sure they could rapidly verify his alumnus status.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## MartialArtist

[Edit] Two days in the monastery to two years as posted in his bio


----------



## MartialArtist

The only real contact I have with Stanford is that a cousin of one of my son's friends plays football there (Brett Pierce).  Trying to find whether or not he got a degree is a time-consuming process if you don't have some contact with somebody that I don't care to partake.

But conveniently being a veteran, an officer, a CIA officer, a Navy SEAL, and having degrees from top schools does seem a bit suspicious.  The only thing he's missing is a PhD from Princeton and a masters from MIT and Berkeley, being a Delta Force member, etc.

One thing about the SEALs.  There's the testing period where about 20% at the most make it.  I think it's a 52-week program, I don't remember.  And that's just basically the qualifying period.  Officers get "A" training I believe what it is called, and almost everybody goes to jump school.  But either way, he has to have given up decades just for his military training and not his hand-to-hand combat training.  He doesn't even list what SEAL team he belongs to.

The biggest indicator to me that he is lying (not 100% though) is that he claims he was a Navy SEAL officer.  There are about 20-30 openings (don't quote me on this) for an officer in the SEAL groups.  20-30 for all teams I believe it is.  About 80% of the openings go to graduates of the Naval Academy.


----------



## RyuShiKan

.


----------



## chufeng

Stanford's on-line courses run $1199 per credit hour...
A PhD, Doctoral degree other than a PhD, and even a Master's level course would be VERY EXPENSIVE...not to mention, that on-line university courses are a recent phenomenon.

Yale does have a Master's of Divinity degree.

As far as learning a martial art while going to school...if you're not working your way through college, there is PLENTY of time to train.

Although the story seems suspiscious, I am witholding any criticisms or judgements.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## gozanryu

Martial Artist, Not only does he claim to be an officer, the Navy claims his to be an officer. An officer with a Trident on his uniform.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by gozanryu _
> *Martial Artist, Not only does he claim to be an officer, the Navy claims his to be an officer. An officer with a Trident on his uniform. *


Really?  The Navy claims him to be an officer?  Who's command was he under?  With your statement, there may be a chance he was in the Navy, but I doubt anything without solid proof.  A trident on the uniform doesn't mean anything, you can get one for $3.95.  Maybe he was a SEAL, who knows?  You know him personally, being one of his students, so could you do us a favor and fill out the form below?

http://www.authentiseal.org/report.htm

Thanks in advance


----------



## RyuShiKan

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> * Maybe he was a SEAL, who knows?  You know him personally, being one of his students, so could you do us a favor and fill out the form below?
> 
> http://www.authentiseal.org/report.htm
> *




I and a few others already checked and his claim to being a SEAL checks out..........however just because that is true doesn't mean the rest is true.
I doubt very much he had the time or resources to do all the things he claims.


----------



## MartialArtist

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I and a few others already checked and his claim to being a SEAL checks out..........however just because that is true doesn't mean the rest is true.
> I doubt very much he had the time or resources to do all the things he claims. *


Maybe a little overboard with exaggeration but he does check out as a SEAL which is a good thing.  At least he's telling the truth on a couple of those things.  SEALs do not get extensive hand-to-hand combat training as you would under a real teacher, but going through the process of becomming a SEAL does say something about his determination.  I do however still have doubts on his claims on degrees.


----------



## Kirk

Check out this guy


----------



## Cthulhu

Wow.  Chinese ninjitsu[sic] that uses nunchaku.  Check out this bit of wisdom:



> Step One: Solve Problems With Your Mind Instead Of Your Nunchakus. While nunchakus are a time-honored tradition of dispute settlement among the ninja, their use is usually discouraged in the typical American office. The next time someone steals your stapler or eats your lunch from the office refrigerator, try saying a few friendly, but firm, words to them instead of smashing their skull with your nunchakus.



This nugget of sagacity was under a section titled: "How to hide your ninja lifestyle from your co-workers".

Also, check out the three Chinese systems and one Korean system.  All of which make use of _katas_[sic].

I didn't know tai chi taught _kata_.  Must be the super-ultra-secret Japanese influence.

:shrug: 

Cthulhu


----------



## tonbo

Uh.......yeah.  

Well, at least it was....um.....*interesting*.  Nice pajamas on the Sigung, too.  Purple is *such* a fear and awe-inspiring color.

Wow.    :shrug: 

Peace--


----------



## theletch1

> Purple is *such* a fear and awe-inspiring color



The purple would be from the influence given him from the Roman Empire and the gladiatorial style of fighting that he keeps secret and  only trains his high ranking students in.:rofl:


----------



## tonbo

> The purple would be from the influence given him from the Roman Empire and the gladiatorial style of fighting that he keeps secret and only trains his high ranking students in.



Oh, yeah.  I should have seen that.  Makes sense, now.

Freaking' ninjas.  They shouldn't go around clouding my mind like that.  It just ain't fair.

:rofl: 

Peace--


----------



## Rex Ninway

This is for all the martial artists thats been putting down sensei Shannon Kawika Phelps. I, myself have been training in the art of ninjitsu, Ninway Ninjitsu. I am from Hawaii, where Shannon and my sensei have practice. I have been studying ninjitsu for more than ten years. I have met sensei shannon and learned many things about the person just by asking questions and looking through his eyes. And just to let everyone know, I too was in the service, enough too know what is bull. Anyway, to ever know about a person in is not to hear from someone but to hear, see and actually be there. I assure you that he will have all the information you need to know about him and his dojo and maybe even his life. what I'm trying to say is that why waste any of your energy trying to put a person down when you have never ever even met the person. It is totally different from hearing about the person than actually be there. Talk to your sensei about it if you don't understand. If any of you have any questions about his martial arts ask him. I'm sure he'll answer. Just don't go writing about something you can't understand and don't go asking your sensei who he is and if his martial arts is false cause I'll tell you one thing, your sensei is not Shannon Kawika Phelps.


----------



## Aegis

Don't bother, most of the people who were discussing it don't post here any more, so trying to resuscitate this thread won't work. Just let it die.


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by Aegis _
> *Don't bother, most of the people who were discussing it don't post here any more, so trying to resuscitate this thread won't work. Just let it die. *



Not just yet...


----------



## cali_tkdbruin

> _Originally posted by RCastillo _
> *Sometimes, all this reminds me of TKD. *



And *HEY!?!* I resemble that remark...  


:rofl:


----------



## taiyong

I have studied several martial styles since my youth, originally aikido with my math tutor who held a shodan, I've studied Kempo as well with the masters of the KARA-HO group, Grandmaster Kuoha, Sensei Ka'imi, and Sensei John, Cosmo and a few others. I have also prior to studying Kempo, studied at Kawika Sensei's Dojo. To start off I feel that your accusations about the appearance of the Dojo are pretty uncalled for, though they have now moved locations, the appearance of the previous dojo was very breathtaking, to me it showed that Kawika had much more than simply a sense for the Japanese style, though not a teribbly large room it was decorated in such a way that one felt peaceful just walking into the room. I've been at both ends of the deal, studying in grimy sweaty dojos, and at very nice clean studios there both fine, just so long as you are there to train. I have not verified Kawika Sensei's military experience but the way I see it being authorized to wear the Green Beret must have meant that he recieved some sort of Language training; in addition, growing up in hawaii did expose him at an early age to asian influence, I am asian I live in San Diego and in fact Kawaika's school is right by my house, I do not believe that one has to be Japanese to understand Japanese culture, I was born in LA and grew up in San Diego but I can sum up Japanese culture in a nut shell, their stubborn their honorable, they give respect when they recieve respect and they somehow became masters of feng shui without even trying, all those silly old chinese ladies doing feng shui should just try visiting japan to see what real feng shui is, anyone who has been to a real japanese home knows that they got everything and they got it all somehow stylishy crammed into an apartment the size of most master bedroom suites. Anyway I got off topic, I am now nearly a fifth year of SMall Frame Chen Tai Ji, Xiao Jia for those who speak it, Tai Ji is the real martial art and unfortunately there is very little real tai ji in the world today, I can say without a doubt that Kawika Sensei does not teach or know real tai ji , but it's not his fault his teacher did not know it either. Tai Ji is obscure a mystery the world generally practices what was taught to the invading mogolian rulers by the original Yang tai ji guy who learned his art from the chen village. He made up some advanced martial arts but it was certainly not real tai ji. However, even though in my own opinion Kawika's Tai ji is not real it is still better that anyone else's I've seen around here except perhaps another master I studied with for a year or so named Jesse Tsao who ironically also lived very near me. I travelled to the east and studied with a great man who deciphered the true tai ji using his own knowledge of modern mechanics and the ancient chen boxing manual(which is really the only book ever written to teach tai ji, everything else is just vague principles which do not allow a student to decipher actual movements and techniques. As far as hand to hand goes I have to give my credit to Grandmaster Kuoha and Kara-Ho Kempo those guys would drop 90% of the other martial artists out their in a second, many SEAL's and Recon guys study this art, particulary the Recon guys because their is a Sensei named Al who is a bad *** Recon guy I think he is probably retired now but I'll tell you what one look from his eyes and you'll know he has seen some serious ****, he instructs certain Recon Units in this form of hand to hand. Kawika's martial art seems unrealistically "gentle" particulary for a combat soldier, many of the "rake" and  "nerve stiking" techniques would not be useful against someone with a tatical vest on or hell even someone with a thick jacket, Kara-Ho kempo would be more like this, Move in forward straight forward stance quickly, blast a punch tot he face and hit him if he doesn't react fast enough and virtually at the same time your foot should be kicking his knee joint in half. Certainly more effective even if your up against some painted up recondo graduate with gore between his teeth. 

I give Shannon's school an A
simply because he teaches important aiki techniques but ironically Grandmaster Kuoha even being a Kempo Master, knows a hell of alot more about aikido than anyone I've ever met, but more importantly he knows how to effectively implement aiki principles in a combative fashion, which is very deadly.


----------



## Don Roley

Taiyong,
I hope you do not take offense when I say that I think you should work on yoru writting skills. It was kind of hard to understand a lot of what you were writing and your lack of paragraphs and such kind of takes way from the message you are trying to make.



			
				taiyong said:
			
		

> To start off I feel that your accusations about the appearance of the Dojo are pretty uncalled for, though they have now moved locations, the appearance of the previous dojo was very breathtaking, to me it showed that Kawika had much more than simply a sense for the Japanese style



You are talking with at least two people who live in Japan that find his "more Japanese than the Japanese" style with things like its gongs and a mat that he can sit like a feudal lord to be somewhat offensive based on our experiences. Have you ever been to Japan? Maybe lived here and speak the language? I assume not and have to say that your experiences are somewhat lacking. You say you understand Japanese culture based on living in LA and San Diego. Some of us have actually lived in Japan for years and speak from a much greater experience about the matter than you.





			
				taiyong said:
			
		

> I can say without a doubt that Kawika Sensei does not teach or know real tai ji , but it's not his fault his teacher did not know it either.



Ah, but when you were training under him you beleived it was real Tai ji, did you not? That is the nature of things in the martial arts. If you do not have experience with better, you would think that even the worst is good. Take a look at all the glowing reccomendations for Ashida Kim books on Amazon.

And unfortunately there is a lot of mediocrity in the martial arts today. Some people believe that Phelps is a good teacher, because they have not met a true master. You know he does not do good taiji, but can your opinion about his other areas be explained away by your own lack of experience with better martial artists?


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## TSUKIMASTER

I have a first hand story kind of the opposite. When I was still taking classes years ago my snesi, who is a well known Japanese 8th dan stated to a class full of white boys that Americans are lazy, worthless piles of excrement and he hates teaching them.  Needless to say, it was my last class at that dojo. 
 The higher you get the bigger your head gets.... well, for most anyway.


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## RRouuselot

TSUKIMASTER said:
			
		

> I have a first hand story kind of the opposite. When I was still taking classes years ago my snesi, who is a well known Japanese 8th dan stated to a class full of white boys that Americans are lazy, worthless piles of excrement and he hates teaching them. Needless to say, it was my last class at that dojo.
> The higher you get the bigger your head gets.... well, for most anyway.


 
 Who was the 8th dan teacher?


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