# Has Anyone Here Studied Matsubayashi Ryu



## Rob_Broad (Oct 20, 2001)

Has Anyone Here Studied Matsubayashi Ryu.  I was studying at a school for about a yr before I moved away.  I found it to be an interesting style and really fun.


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## jeffbeish (Nov 1, 2001)

Yes, I was stationed at Naha AB, Okinawa while in the Air Force from late 1959 to mid-1962 and was a member of Nagamine's dojo.  :asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 1, 2001)

That must have been amazing.  How far did you get in the program under his tutelege and what style do you study now?


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## jeffbeish (Nov 1, 2001)

I came away as shodan.  Before that my Judo sensei was trained in shotokan and occasionally taught me what he knew of it, so I was a little prepared before going to Okinawa.  Not much though, they are a lot rougher and 10 -million time more knowledgeable there.  I went over to Goguryu for awhile before coming home, but that was too strenuous.  Some years later after finding renewed interest in karate and started with a kajukenbo group and helped out with whatever I remembered from Naganines teachings and with Judo techniques.  Our Judo club and the karate (kenpo) clubs got along like family  unusual for sure. 

Now, maybe I do some basic kata a few times a year and have just lost interest after so long.  I am retired now and may just get out in the back and do a little now and then  but its too late to kick *** again at 61 : )  Thats young guy talk, I think  

Some years ago I found Nagamine's book and have it now.  There are photos of him back when I first met him in 1960.  He was nice to us GIs and encouraged many of us to do karate.  I suppose he is gone now. 

Do yoiu paractice  Matsubayashi?


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## jeffbeish (Nov 1, 2001)

I did attempt to keep in contact with him for a few years but after I was gone so much on TDY trips (Air Force road trips) somehow the communication line was broken and I never got back to him.  It was so hard to find anyone in the States that does the various Okinawa karate, I mean actually learned over there, that I just gave up ever establishing contact again.  He was a nice person though and had a knack for teaching.  Three were only three or four of us GI types in his dojo then but it picked up considerably some years later.  My Judo friends, Mas Yamashi -ta, was also in the dojo but he left Okinawa for personal reasons and I havent heard from him in nearly 40 years.

Hum, it didn't like the spelling of my freind's name


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 1, 2001)

Soshin Nagamine passed away, I believe in 1997.  I trained a small school in Matsubayashi Ryu in 1998.  I was working in a small town and that was the only school there.  My hours made it impossible for me to open a Kenpo school, so I just trained in Matsubayashi Ryu.  There are a few good instructors in the US these days, and they have strong ties to Soshin Nagamine and his son who now heads up the association.


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## jeffbeish (Nov 1, 2001)

From what I remember about it you will not go wrong sticking with that ryu.  It is one of those fundemental karate from Okianwa with traditions going way back.  Since I have not formerly practiced it in so many years my advice would not be worth too much.  But, I did remember that everyone there loved the school and Nagamine sensei.  I remember we would finished off sometimes with a row/column of four by four and do kata.  Weight training and lots of makiwara (SP?) training.   Then one little guy would jump up and smash this huge tember that supported one section of the dojo with some kick!  

I had not noticed that big dent in that support tember (18") until this guy kicked it.  I first though it was just a decoration!  

Anyway, I enjoyed readng the his book.  I suppose I could do a few of the kata from the book and memory, but would never want anyone to see me!  It is a good karate.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 2, 2001)

What do the Matsubayashi Ryu kata look like?  By this, I mean do they look more like the Naha Te kata (like Uechi and Goju), or the Shuri Te and/or Tomari Te kata (like Shotokan)?  I'm very curious, as I've only heard of this style once before and have seen nothing on it.

Cthulhu


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## jeffbeish (Nov 2, 2001)

If I remember correctly it was originally from the town or village of Shuri, so it would be Shuri Te. Don't take that to the bank.  It was more in line with shotokan but not nearly as "stiff" or rigid.  Shotokan I believe was Funakoshi's brand he took to Japan from Okinawa.  There is a book out yonder that has some good history of all these different ryu but I will have to look for it.  

Except for some minor differences and arrangement of kata there are only two separate schools of karate on Okianwa that I remember.  There are many variations of he two schools, but I think it was because in the old days each town on Okinawa developed their own thoughts.  But, I could be very wrong.  I think some Americans try to romanticize it more than the Okinawans do.  

It wouldnt be the first time I was wrong about all this, but I tried


  :asian:


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## jeffbeish (Nov 2, 2001)

I will depart a little from memory (40 years ago) and paraphrase from the Nagamine, Shoshin book The Essence of Okinawan Karate-DO: He states that Shuri-te is divided into three styles  two are called Shorin-ryu and a third called Matsubayashi-ryu style of Shorin-ryu.  Nagamine Shoshin practices the Matsubayashi style of Shorin-ryu.  

Anyway, it is too much to write here so I would suggest a run the local library to see if his book is there, it is excellent reading.  Also, while I am no expert on the history of karate I have a book that does included a lot of history, some puzzling and some right on track,_Okinawan Karate: Teachers, Styles, and Secret Techniques, By: Mark Bishop.  It has some nice photos of a couple of my sensei; Nagamine and Miyazato, Iiichi

Mitazato was an interesting character.  He was a big wigs in the Goju-ryu karate; however, he was also the Chairman of the Okianwan Judo Federation.  He was only a godan Judo then, if memory serves me, and was our coach when we Air Force guys would go off the Japan to do tournaments.  I really liked him.  He pal'ed around with some of us at times and we would take him, and my Judo sensei at Naha AB, to the airmans club for beer on occasion.  We grew to be friends and I used to get letters from Miyazato occasionally for a few years after I returned to the land of the big PX.  He was a businessman and knew how to treat people.  My Judo sensei was All Okinawan Judo Champ for three or four years then.  I know part of his body was made from brick!  Quite a group of people then, they all got to be red belts years later.  I guess I was left out.  

Uihara was his last name and he taught me once and for all how to do hane gohshi, a not so easy Judo throw, by countering me each and every time I screw up.  Like I say, he was part stone!


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 2, 2001)

The kata  of Matsubayashi - Ryu are Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, the Pinans 1-5, Nahanchi, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai, and know there are more but at this time I do not remember the rest of the names.


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## arnisador (Nov 2, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Rob_Broad _
> *The kata  of Matsubayashi - Ryu are Fukyugata Ichi and Ni, the Pinans 1-5, Nahanchi, Ananku, Wankan, Rohai, and know there are more but at this time I do not remember the rest of the names. *



I am partial to systems like Isshin and Uechi that have a manageable number of empty hand kata (8 each in this case) rather than those with seventeen or so. It's too much! I recall reading that in the old days it was common for a karate master to know perhaps three kata.


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 2, 2001)

Actually there are 17 kata in the Matsubayashi Ryu system. 
2 Fujyugata
5 Pinan
3 Nahanchi
Rohai
Ananku
Wankan
Wanshu

The rest I am uncertain of.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 2, 2001)

Are the Nahanchi kata the ones Funakoshi renamed into Tekki?  

I've heard all of those names before except for Rohai.

Cthulhu


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## jeffbeish (Nov 3, 2001)

Hope this is okay to use a book.  I found some additional kata listed in Nagamine's book:

Wanshu
Passai
Gojushiho
Chinto
Jusanku


I think these are not taught much but I did remember that sensei preformed Passai for the dojo more than once.  It is quite different that the others I think.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 3, 2001)

Wanshu = Empi
Chinto = Gankaku
Passai = Bassai Sho

Is this right?  I've heard of kushanku, but not jusanku.  Gojushiho is practiced in Shotokan, I believe.

Cthulhu


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## jeffbeish (Nov 3, 2001)

Sorry, I just listed them from his book and didn't read the text.

Do you have access to this book?  It may not be around; however, I saw it in a local library in Virginia (moved back home to Florida) and will look in our vast library hee in ye ole Lake Placid.

I can read up on it.  Most of the kata in his book were never done while  I was there.  We did the first few and it is hard to remember any more.  My mind was on girls back then, so that could account for some of the foggy memories


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## Cthulhu (Nov 3, 2001)

Nope, I don't have access to that back, but I'm wishing I did.  Do you happen to have the ISBN number?

I'm pretty sure all the kata you've listed have a basis in Shuri-te, and they all have their counterparts in Shotokan, albeit with the new names given to them by Funakoshi.

I've read of an interesting account regarding traditional karate instruction in Okinawa.  According to this source (some Web site I read not too long ago), his Okinawan teacher told him that the names given to the majority of the techniques was done by or for the Japanese.  His teacher's teacher used to just tell his students to 'move their arm this way' or 'stand like this', etc.  I'm not sure, but I think this guy was a goju or Uechi stylist.

You've piqued my curiousity about this Matsubayashi ryu.  I'm going to have to researh it now. Thanks 

Cthulhu


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## jeffbeish (Nov 3, 2001)

ISBN 0-8048-1163-6

L. Congress: 75-28717

published by Charles F. Tuttle.

Mine is the first edition in 1976 and sure more editions are available, Borders and Amazon.com.


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## jeffbeish (Nov 3, 2001)

In the beginning chapter for the kata Nagamine writes that there may have been thirty Kate in Shuri-te and Tomari-te, bit only eighteen have been preserved in the Matsubayashi ryu.  Nagamines sensei are listed on that page as: Choki Motobu, Chotoku Kyan and Ankichi Arakaki. He defines his ryu as from the Chinese characters: matsu and hayashi meaning pine forest.

Chotoku Kyan had learned some of the kata you are interested in from his trips to other villages on Okinawa and Taiwan.  It is said that Chotoku learned the katas; Sesan, Naifuanchi and Gojushiho from the Shuri-te (Sokon Matsumura).  Also, Kusanku from Yara Chatan from the village Yumitan, Passai from Tomari-te (Kokan Oyadomari), Wanshu and Chinto from Tomari-te (Kosaku Matsumora), and Ananku from a Taiwanese.

I'm getting in over my head.  Better stick with Judo


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## Cthulhu (Nov 3, 2001)

Is Matsubayashi ryu the same style of Shorin ryu taught by Trias when he opened his school in the 50's?

Okinawa-te is supposed to have 36 lenghty kata (a kata in Okinawa-te has at least 60 movements, unlike the 20 or so movements of most Shotokan kata).  However, I think the number of people who know even half of these kata can be counted on one hand.  We also have 12 short forms, though most schools only teach 6 nowadays.  Damn shame, too...they left out some of the coolest ones.

Again, thanks for the kewl info! 

Cthulhu


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## jeffbeish (Nov 3, 2001)

Well, I dug out a box stored in a closet and found two more old karate books I forgot about.  One is a 1960 vintage _Karate_, Nishiyama, a Shotokan sensei -- and _Karate-Do_ by Funakoshi Gechin who started Shotokan karate in Japan.  I bought Nishiyamas book while living on Okinawa because my best friend and Judo buddy and I had practiced Shotokan before.  One of my first Judo sensei was a yudansha in Shotokan where he learned while at the Kodokan in Japan.  They taught that in the old Kodokan even when I was there.  It is a hard style and when I studied under Nagamine he taught me to loosen up.  Some Okinawa karate is hard style, but from what I saw others were less so.

Now, it was fun reading all that stuff again.  History is fun and especially if I was there when some of it was in the making, so to speak.  Heck, to some I am historical!


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## Rob_Broad (Nov 3, 2001)

We must look to the past to see our future.  It is always great when different generations can share and learn from each  other's varied experience.


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## jeffbeish (Nov 4, 2001)

Swami Vivekananda said:  "We have to go though different experiences, but let us never forget the ideal."

O nore wo migaku wo aruku beshi - "If one is to polish himself, one must follow a moral path of Morse."  (Meaning: To better oneself, one must have stepped over rocks on the Path of Life).


I know there is at least one Confusius saying to fit in here


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## arnisador (Nov 4, 2001)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *I've heard of kushanku, but not jusanku.  Gojushiho is practiced in Shotokan, I believe.
> *



Gojushiho ("the fifty-four steps") is also practiced in some styles of Shorin-ryu, I know: I was taught gojushiho-no-sai as a Shorin-ryu sai kata and was told it was very similar to the empty hand kata. Kusanku is the one named after a Chinese ambassador to the Ryukus, if memory serves.


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## Cthulhu (Nov 9, 2001)

I saw another book by Nagamine at Barnes & Noble.  Can't remember the title at 1a.m., but it's about different Okinawan karateka, going back 200 years or so.  Similar to Richard Kim's The Weaponless Warriors I guess.  It was translated by Patrick McCarthy.

Cthulhu


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## shine (Jan 15, 2002)

I have the book you are referring to: Tales of Okinawa's Great Masters.  I thought it was a fun book with some good stories and insights.  For instance, Nagamine argues against the myth that karate was developed by peasants;  he believes karate was the sole domain of the aristocracy.


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## donald (Jan 16, 2002)

Hope I'am not bustin in. What style did Robert Trias teach? Was it a "traditional" style? Or was it an off shoot?  :karate:


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## Cthulhu (Jan 16, 2002)

I may be mistaken, but I thought Robert Trias taught Shorin Ryu.  Let me do a quick Web search to see...


...searching...


...whoops, from what I turned up, it was Shuri-ryu, promoted to 10th dan in 1983.

Cthulhu


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## twendkata71 (Jul 16, 2006)

*The 18 kata of Matsubayashi ryu are.*
*Fukyugata I&II*
*Pinan I-V*
*Naihanchi I-III*
*anaku*
*passai dai*
*rohai*
*wanshu *
*wankan*
*chinto*
*gojushiho*
*kusanku*

*I studied Matsubayashi Shorin ryu with James Driggs in Ohio for a year,before going back to my original instructor.*


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