# breaking and spraining bones



## Loren W. Christensen (Jan 14, 2005)

Hi, 

I asked this question in the grappling section and got some good answers, so I thought I'd plug it in here, too.

I'm working on a writing project in which I examine grappling techniques that break bones, joints in particular. I'm talking toes, ankles, knees, hips, spine, shoulders, neck, elbows, wrists, and fingers. 

Have any list members been the victim of such a break, have done the breaking, or have witnessed others execute or receive such a break? I'd be interested in knowing how it occurred, whether in class, competition or the street. I'm only interested in grappling techniques. 

Loren Christensen

www.lwcbooks.com


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## Brother Grimm (Jan 19, 2005)

Greetings and Salutations Mr. Christensen, Ihave a couple of your books and love them. I have been in Ju Jutsu for 12 years now. I have had my knee and shouldr dislocated in class and broke another persons wrist and collarbone in an altercation. If you would like more detail I would rather e-mail you than post.


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## Kirby Minor (Jan 19, 2005)

I have been lucky as far as breaks as a "victim"-only breaking my big toes over a dozen times (my only major injury was a medial collateral knee ligament sprain).  I have seen two elbow dislocations, both from the person being thrown reaching for the mat to break the fall.  The first incident was from a seoi nage (shoulder throw) during randori, the second was from an o soto gari (outer reap)while I was refereeing the match at a judo tournament.   The judo player in the first incident (even after 5-6 months of good ukemi training) made the tragic mistake of planting his hand, fingers pointing back at himself on the mat in front of him during mid-throw.

In the dojo I've only inflicted one shoulder dislocation (which I still feel bad about...I hate injuring someone) and that was when I countered with a ushiro goshi (rear hip throw) adding a little russian-esque leg lift.  That added lift made the fall angle such that the shoulder was the first to impact the mat with the feet straight up in the air.  

Outside the dojo (many years ago) I was attacked after school by a bully that was looking for an easy way to get suspended.  I threw him with a seoi nage (strangely, I rarely used this technique as a judoka but it seemed right at that split second) his shoulder impacted a curb and I believe dislocated or maybe fractured.  He immediately tried to punch me with his good arm while we were on the ground and I got that arm in an ude garami (arm wrap/kimura)...due to the adrenaline I torqued the arm as hard as I could and I believe dislocated that shoulder as well.  He was unable to move either of his arms when I got off of him.

During the same incident my attacker may have injured his wrists from the grimace on his face but I'm not sure.  Before the seoi nage, I foot sweeped him twice with de ashi barai and he reached for the hard ground.  I verbally gave him two opportunities to stop attacking and told him I did not want  to fight but the two footsweeps may have been too humiliating when just about the entire high school was watching.  It is interesting to note that he told people I fought dirty by knocking his feet out from underneath him with my gym bag...I had dropped my gymbag well behind me when I saw him coming.  He just had no idea what hit him and assumed it was a big heavy gym bag.  

Good luck on your book.  Let me know if you need anymore explanation.

GOOD HEART, GOOD MIND, GOOD JUDO!


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## lhommedieu (Jan 19, 2005)

Loren,

Victim of two myself:  One happened at the end of class when I showed a student how to do a "figure four" shoulder lock and he applied it a little too quickly.  I heard a crack but didn't say anything.  For a couple of months I'd wake up in the middle of the night from the pain.  Finally got someone to put it back into place for me - there was an audible "pop" and you could feel it move back into place inside.  The second happened when a training partner powered through a throw that bent my back over as it was being twisted (I was expecting a slow walk-through and didn't have time to breakfall).  I'm not sure what the damage was but it felt like my upper half and lower half were disconnected for a couple of months - probably a disk injury or minor compression fracture.

I broke someone's nose when I told my teacher he wasn't really parrying my punch and he said that he was - so my teacher said go ahead and throw the punch again...

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 19, 2005)

Breaking of joints and bones:

In Class sprawling on a peron lounging in for take down. My arm wraped around and under their shoulder, as I fell on them it separated their shoulder. Many months of healing time for this person before they could train with the arm.

On the street, I did a form a thumb come-along. As I see you are Modern Arnis, you might know what I am talking about. (* Meaning the descritption, I am sure you have seen it before, it is my vocabulary of description that I question. *) When you hook the thumb and circle it in towards the ribs while holding the elbow. This puts the back of their wrist agaisnt the inside of your palm while thier elbow is tucked under your arm pit. I was escorting him out, and he realized after w a few feet what was causing the control (* He was drunk *). He pushed and tried to get out, I tried to restrain without damage. The following day, he showed up in a brace and later a cast, as it was broke.

On the street while dealing with 5 guys, on the ground, I grabbed what I could, and broke some fingers, by using the small cirlcle principal. A couple of broken fingers and I was able to then get up, the hard way (* Took a kick to the ribs *). 

These are the ones that come to mind right now. I have to go teach class right now, so more later. You can contact me if you want for more details and specifics if required.

 :asian:


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## Loren W. Christensen (Jan 20, 2005)

Thanks for your responses, fellow warriors. 

I want to respond to you but I'm getting zapped with a virus - Trojan.Holfax - to the tune of one every three seconds (love to break some bones on the nerd who sent this one out). So as soon as I'm up and running I'll give you a shout .

Thanks for taking the time to respond. 

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com


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## Loren W. Christensen (Jan 25, 2005)

Brother Grimm said:
			
		

> Greetings and Salutations Mr. Christensen, Ihave a couple of your books and love them. I have been in Ju Jutsu for 12 years now. I have had my knee and shouldr dislocated in class and broke another persons wrist and collarbone in an altercation. If you would like more detail I would rather e-mail you than post.


Please do, though I'm still have computer problems. lwc123@aracnet.com.

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com


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## hardheadjarhead (Jan 25, 2005)

Sir,

The closest I've come is torn connective tissue in my wrist from an overzealous "sankyo" lock done in 1986.  The ulna popped out, subluxing away from its connection to the bones of the hand.  This caused a locking of the wrist, so that I couldn't supinate it.  I popped it back in and taped it tightly, and it was mostly okay until about three years ago.

Now it goes out a lot more often.  I have a situation aggravating it called "ulnar plus" (sounds like a feminine hygiene spray) wherein the ulna is about two millimeters too long.  

I also have some arthritis upstream where the ulna connects to the elbow.  I attribute this to trauma/instability brought on by the lock.

As you know, I was lucky.  It could have been worse.

I also have a bulging cervical disc from a heavily applied full nelson.  No break.  Other things contributed to this injury.

A bulging disc often leads to numbness and loss of strength in the arm.  The pain is bad.  Again, that could have been worse.

This probably isn't quite what you're looking for.  


Regards,


Steve


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## Loren W. Christensen (Jan 26, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Sir,
> 
> The closest I've come is torn connective tissue in my wrist from an overzealous "sankyo" lock done in 1986. The ulna popped out, subluxing away from its connection to the bones of the hand. This caused a locking of the wrist, so that I couldn't supinate it. I popped it back in and taped it tightly, and it was mostly okay until about three years ago.
> 
> Steve


Hi Steve, 

Man, we are both examples of guys who must spend the last half of our lives nursing what we did to ourselves the first half. In my case I wouldn't change a thing, though.

I've been thinking of adding the sankyo and now I will. Do you recall if your opponent applied it with a hard jerk or snap, or was it a continuous and progressive pressure? 

Loren
www.lwcbooks.com


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