# Credentials and exposure - Was: Is MT friendly as in the TIN?



## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

I'm a bit dissapointed in this place lately and noticed that a lot of people have mixed feelings about the recent happenings on Martial Talk. 

We have had insessive fraud busting....People challenging other people....People argueing over this......people disrespecting that. I know that IMO this isnt what I call friendly......I also know a lot of people agree. 

A lot of the time, the arguments around here just start out innocently and stay that way. Recently they grow into rude uneeded comments by both partys. I've also noticed that a lot more threads have been locked recently then in the whole time I have been here. And heck, call it a "coincidense" but the post count has DROPPED since all the arguments started. 

The point to this post is there is none.....I'm just looking to see how "Friendly" everyone feels this place is these days.....:shrug:


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## chufeng (May 25, 2003)

:argue: 

 

:drink2tha 

When we voted this place into the number one position, we attracted a contingent of "less than honest" folk from some of the other boards...it's just a speed bump.

:asian:
chufeng


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## Jill666 (May 25, 2003)

Well all I know is my ignore list has grown by leaps and bounds, due to certain parties' endless bullshooting. I'm not interested in some self-important uber-sensei posting at tremendous length about- hell, I can't even think of what has been contributed lately by these jokers.

Those who get singled out as irritable, complusive fraud-busters have been the same people to provide me personally with just the kind of info I'm looking for to advance my own practice. Coincidence?

This is supposed to be a friendly place, and Kaith has stated his position on the matter in no uncertain terms. I wish to respect that.

Don't ask me what the answer is- my mother would say just ignore the jerks and they will go away. My father taught me something else completely. I guess we have to accept that everyone has the right to be wrong, and hope they don't pick up too many disciples along the way.


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *  I'm a bit dissapointed in this place lately and noticed that a lot of people have mixed feelings about the recent happenings on Martial Talk.
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

There's been a couple of times I almost commented negatively
to the fraud busters, because lets face it, they're good at it!  The
thing that's stopped me from commenting?  rec.martialarts!  It's
polluted with 21 yr old Grandmasters of scratchmybutt-do or 
big-ego-ryu.  Many of them have went and got yellow belts in
12 arts and think that's what Bruce Lee's message was  
Then they try to dish out information like they're some kind of
expert.  That place makes me puke, and  honestly, if it turns into
that here .. I won't be showing up.   I personally don't know of
a resolve to this.


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Dropped? Really?
> I started a thread about claims on the Internet that had 444 replies and 4451 views, which is one of the highest replied and viewed threads in the last couple of months.
> *



Yes, but there was a small handful of members participating  
I think post counts have dropped too .... at least by a large 
handful of members.


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Fraud busting:
> Would you rather have frauds, known plagiarists, & liars running around on this board shoveling out copious amounts of BS for the uninitiated to ingest?
> I for one dont have no need for friends like that nor do I want to be friendly towards them.
> ...



Somehow I knew you would challenge this the most LOL!  

As for Frauds.....Heck I dont want them on the board.....But damn does it have to go on AND ON AND ON. And if you notice my first post was about The ONE of Martial Talk......They are just examples of the less friendly tone that has been loitering around here as of late. 

Make no mistake.....my post is not trying to protect the frauds or anything like that. Lets be honest......Those threads that have gone on and on is because they are not friendly and respectful to everyones views......Both sides go on and on and on trying to put there views across. 

As for the challenging......It may happen on everyboard.....But Martial Talk is not EVERY board....It really is unique and in my opinion a HELL of a lot better then any other I have been to. I would expect that elsewhere....But the only reason I stayed here is because of the level headed people and because there seemed like there wouldnt be a challenge because someones ego has been damaged or the honour insulted or whatever. 

And last but not least the Argueing....They may SAY....But if you read the God thread i think you will find that we have proved that statement wrong. Also check nearly all the posts on Martial Talk and you will find that statement wrong as well  

I'm not gonna get into a heated discussion over this....I'm not here to argue....I just want view points :asian: 

And also this is not a attack on the Moderation of MT.....Heck you guys are great!


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *There's been a couple of times I almost commented negatively
> to the fraud busters, because lets face it, they're good at it!  The
> thing that's stopped me from commenting?  rec.martialarts!  It's
> ...




We lost Mike Clarke (a well respected Gojuist that lived and trained in Okinawa, as well as being a published author and a hell of a nice guy) because there were too many childish Sokes and Uber Sensei running around this board propagating their own myths.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (May 25, 2003)

It doesn't seem all that negative to me, but I'm new here so I have little against which to compare things.

I do have an opinion on a few things, however:

ARGUEMENTS- Heated, intellegent discourse on a variety of topics seems to be inevitable whenever people gather to talk.  Name calling, challenges, and non-friendly swearing  seem to be out of place and add little to the discussion.

FRAUD BUSTING- Bravo,BRAVO, to all who expose the lice who seek to defraud the unsuspecting and gullable.  If you can prove it, there should be no problem with showing it.  

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.

Trying to avoid life's potholes,
Randy Strausbaugh


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *   Somehow I knew you would challenge this the most LOL!  *



I am not challenging it.just trying to show you the alternative.




> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *   As for Frauds.....Heck I dont want them on the board.....But damn does it have to go on AND ON AND ON. *



Hey, if it was my BBs I wouldnt let anyone on that had Soke next to their rank post.
Then there would need to be this topic.let alone this thread.
Giving people a right to speak their mind on a forum isnt really a right its a privilege and if people think they can come and post a bunch of BS to perpetuate their myths then they abuse that privilege.


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *I am not challenging it.just trying to show you the alternative.
> 
> 
> ...




Again it seems my point has been missed.....All I'm saying is you can do it in a friendly tone, there is no need for the rudeness (Yes I have seen some of the emails to certain "Frauds")

I am not challenging you and your hobby.......Just trying to show YOU and all your friends an alternative  :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

This is a quote from Patrick McCarthy that I think is useful here:

To merely ignore him as you suggest is to condone his despicable actions and indirectly helps propagate his lies



So to ignore or do nothing these "frauds" actions on this board only helps them in the long run.


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *This is a quote from Patrick McCarthy that I think is useful here:
> 
> To merely ignore him as you suggest is to condone his despicable actions and indirectly helps propagate his lies
> ...



*sigh* Its about respect! There is a way to go about things and there is a way to not. Your way kinda reminds me of Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunts. 

I am in the chatroom right now if you wish to discuss this with me further.....But right now I dont think we are getting through to each other so I suggest we just stop :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Again it seems my point has been missed.....All I'm saying is you can do it in a friendly tone, there is no need for the rudeness (Yes I have seen some of the emails to certain "Frauds")*



Not missed at all.
How do you expose someone on the Internet in a friendly tone.
What do you say....Sorry old boy I do believe you are a total fraud and an intellectual property thiefdont get upset because I am being friendly about this
And how is it those emails have any relevance to what is posted on MT.other than 2 people from MT were emailing each otherthey were not posted publicly.. 



> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *I am not challenging you and your hobby.......Just trying to show YOU and all your friends an alternative  :asian: *



Its not my Hobby.


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> **sigh* Its about respect! There is a way to go about things and there is a way to not. Your way kinda reminds me of Joseph McCarthy and his witch hunts.
> 
> I am in the chatroom right now if you wish to discuss this with me further.....But right now I dont think we are getting through to each other so I suggest we just stop :asian: *




Sorry.........gotta sxxx, shower and shave then go to work.


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Not missed at all.
> How do you expose someone on the Internet in a friendly tone.
> What do you say....Sorry old boy I do believe you are a total fraud and an intellectual property thiefdont get upset because I am being friendly about this
> ...



But that leads me back to my original post and the Non Friendly tone this site seems to have got stuck with now days! I believe if you cant do it in a friendly tone then take it to PM.....Cuz I dont wanna read 30 pages of you argueing over someones rank. If you can bust them....then do it....But cant you do it like a REAL superhero and do it at night when no one will know you have done it but the Fraud rate on Martial Talk will slowly go down. 

And Im willing to bet that a lot of the new members take one look at the insessive argueing and run for the hills....And as someone stated before about the post count thing....If you notice your thread with so and so replys and so and so views was maintained by about 4 or 5 members :shrug: 

As for the hobby thing.....its called a sense of humour.....


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *
> As for Frauds.....Heck I dont want them on the board.....But damn does it have to go on AND ON AND ON.*



For awhile there bro, you weren't going anywhere near a thread
discussing martial arts at all.  As much as I like ya, I really got
tired of checking out all the new posts for the last few hours,
and seeing only threads such as "yo' momma jokes", "What...",
"Post every time you look" and "Word Association".  Notice my
participation stopped there some time ago.  They're fine, if  you
also get what you came here for ... but when that's all that's 
happening ...  it gets quite pathetic ... but that tide changed once
again, and we're talking martial arts in various threads.  It was
a phase in the evolution of this board ... just like what's going
on right now, that you don't like.  Just give it time, it'll settle down.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 25, 2003)

Just a short note.... I've had an, 'interesting' week, and do not feel ready to comment on most of the points in here.

1 point - slow down in posting.  The majority of our users are in the US and Canada, where its starting to be warm and sunny.   This weekend in particular is a big US holiday.  The summer tends to be slower than winter...with big slowdowns at major warm-spells.  I'm not worried about the traffic...its following the same patter it has for the last 2 years.


The rest will be addressed -very- shortly.  We do hear you and see whats happening....  We are going to be doing a few things differently in the near future.  I expect some will like it, and some will not.  Before I say more, we want to be certain we say it correctly.

Please...add your concerns here.  We will address them.
A few people have emailed and PMed me.  I am working through them.

I've sadly been, preoccupied on some pressing personal matters.

My thanks on your patience.
:asian:


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *For awhile there bro, you weren't going anywhere near a thread
> discussing martial arts at all.  As much as I like ya, I really got
> tired of checking out all the new posts for the last few hours,
> ...



If you care to notice my participation in those threads has slimmed down a hell of a lot too. And although a lot of it was blamed on me, I wasnt the only one. I stopped, and to be honest....thats the kinda guy I am. Also I feel its going a bit too far saying thats was the ONLY thing that was happening. And I apoligise but Im really stressed out at the moment with exams and family and girlfriend and all and this place really isnt helping.


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

Kirk,
       As with the spamming and the "pointless" just for fun threads......I addressed them in a thread and got some very vaired points of views.....After that the spamming slowed down to almost a stop nowdays. 

That is all I am doing now.....adressing it in a hope it will slow down to stop :asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> * Cuz I dont wanna read 30 pages of you argueing over someones rank. *



Then dont go to that thread.
I rarely if ever go to the MMA thread because I dont want to read whats going on there.







> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *  If you can bust them....then do it... *




I havent missed yet.


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## Kirk (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Kirk,
> As with the spamming and the "pointless" just for fun threads......I addressed them in a thread and got some very vaired points of views.....After that the spamming slowed down to almost a stop nowdays.
> 
> That is all I am doing now.....adressing it in a hope it will slow down to stop :asian: *




understood .. still .. nothin' but love ya!


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## Master of Blades (May 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *understood .. still .. nothin' but love ya! *



Thats cool. I got nothin' but love for me too!  

And RSK.....I would rather in future you qoute the whole thing.....Cuz when you put it like that it misses what I was trying to get across :asian:


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## John Bishop (May 25, 2003)

Well I have to congradulate RyuShiKan for having the courage to stand up and tell it like it is.  
Rank, prestige, respect, recognition, are all things that are earned thru many, many years or decades of hard work.  Not purchased from diploma mills, or thru self promotion.  The internet has been a great vehicle for the myriad of so called, self promoted "Soke, Grandmaster, Masters" to spread their lies and deceit, for a price of course.  
If message boards like this do not expose these phony's who take advantage of the uneducated, than who will?
By allowing these phony's to spew their lies without challenge, we are just helping them deceive the others who don't know better.


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## KenpoDragon (May 25, 2003)

I know that I haven't been here as long as some of you guys, but I find the environment very friendly. I have seen some pretty heated arguments, and some challenges, but that does happen everywhere. This forum is one of the LARGEST I've ever seen, people all over the world are a part of this forum, all styles, all races. With every barrel there are a few bad apples, if you don't want to hear their arguments and b.s then don't talk to them. Avoid the fight, as all martial artists should do, if possible. I personally am amazed that the moderators allow a lot of the stuff that I've seen here, most other forums they would remove your posts and possibly remove you. There is a lot that is allowed here, you guys should appreciate it, not insult it. I would rather talk to a legitimate martial artist, as opposed to a fraud or fake. I personally love this forum, my attendance in "other" MA forums has dropped considerably, because I prefer it here. I think it is pretty simple, if you can't play by the rules, then you don't play at all. Just my opinion though.

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 25, 2003)

Confucius said "to see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."

If someone does not "out" the frauds, who will?  How will the unsuspecting and ingnorant public, on whom the frauds prey, know any better?  Do we simply wait it out and hope beyond hope that they will have an epiphany and realize they are being scammed?  How long do we wait?  How much money do we allow the unsuspecting student to shell out before we step in and provide the benefit of our own experience and knowledge?

If I am paying a fraudulent doctor for medication you know will not help me, and you stand by and say nothing, how should I feel about you, the doctor, or medicine in general?  What if I die as a result of that doctor's poor treatment?

Same thing here.  There are plenty of insecure victims that seek out martial arts as a method by which to shore up their flagging self-image and esteem, and some who attend classes because they have a genuine need to protect their own skin.  If we allow the frauds to meander about unchecked, touting titles and histories that are more at home in Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon than they are in the real world, scamming helpless ignorant people, then who is to blame when that student gets injured or killed due to piss poor instruction?  Really, who is to blame?  The fraudulent teacher who taught the student crap techniques, or worse yet the practitioner that knew better and said nothing...

Please...  You can't tell someone they are a fraud in a "nice way."  



> "Hey!  I think you are a fraudulent P.O.S, and what you are doing is not only immoral, but in all likelihood illegal as well!  You are endangering your students and the community at large, and should be exposed for the sham you are at the earliest opportunity!  But I mean that in a _good_ way..."



Riiiiight...

Martial Talk is the best BBS out there.  I hardly ever visit E-budo, I have stopped going to KFO, and only rarely do I visit Cyberkwoon.  Friendly?  You bet MT is.  But since this place is getting more word of mouth reference, it is also going to draw the freaks like mosquitos to a bug light.

Sometimes it'll get nasty, just like the ground under the bug light after a nice warm night.  The rest of the time, it'll still be the best place to come have a chat...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## arnisador (May 25, 2003)

There has to be a balance. On the one hand useful info. must get out, but on the other hand it needn't be repeated ad infinitum.

Remember, there are many fora here for many arts, and I read pretty much all of them. Most of this place is still very friendly. In spots there are some more heated threads.


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## fringe_dweller (May 25, 2003)

My opinion on the matter...

I think that exposing these guys as frauds is most definitely an important thing, but once done, it's done. I don't mind reading a single thread that has a heated argument about the burden of proof and all the rest, but when 70% of threads all end up trailing off on to that it gets a bit much. 
Obviously the latest example of fraudulent claims comes to light around Paihequan. I didn't mind reading one thread which debunks this guy, but if every time he posts a thought he gets jumped on then things will get a little ridiculous. How can you ask a guy to turn over a new leaf when he never gets a chance to offer any thoughts apart from defence?

RSK, your threads are most enlightening and your knowledge is without question. When I first registered here you made heaps of valuable posts regarding technique and training methods etc. You and the yiliquan guys provide a lot of great material. Of late though it seems that you spend more time yapping at these guys heels. 
If you wish to show these guys up, then you are doing a great job, however I would much rather hear your thoughts on how we can better ourselves as martial artists - something to which you can and have contributed greatly in the past.

Hope I'm getting my message across the way I intend... 

Respectfully,


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## Bob Hubbard (May 25, 2003)

Fringe,
  You said it wuite well.  1 thread is ok...but when -every- thread someone is involved in becomes a series of claims and denials and questions etc, it gets insane.

Thats why we've had a lot more lockdowns as of late.

I expect our official notice will be out shortly.....


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## sweeper (May 25, 2003)

I tend not to read bloated threds of personal attacks..  It's not realy worth my time. There are plenty of god threds on here, if it turns into a flame fest just don't read that thred anymore.

But I would point out it is rather hard to have a dialog with two seperate perspectives on a topic without it seeming confrontatios. And if you try to point out anything you disagree with or dislike of another perspective it will end up seeming aggressive. The line between contribution and pointless flamming is kind of thin in my opinion and to much sensoring well have you throwing out the baby with the bath water.


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## Rich Parsons (May 25, 2003)

My Personal Opinion.

It should be friendly. If you do not like the request then leave.

Fraud Busting, as stated before, no one really likes them. Yet, to have every thread turn into this attack, this is cyber stalking in my mind. And when you get a group of people to all attack amd split hairs it can get confusing, on who said what. I also did not likie the fact that I was explicitly told that it would stop yet teh horse was still being beaten by both sides. I also did not like the fact that my questions were not answered. Yet, it was fundamental that everyone else answer to them. It seemed to me that the Fraud busters would change the subject every time I asked for an answer. If you really want me to list teh examples, then I will go dig them up, yet I think enough is enough on that subject. I just brought them up here to show how it was taken as unfriendly and not being a postive member of this society.


Challeges, well I wanted to answer a challenge, yet someone else told me they were going to, so I let them, since it was more of a direct attack on them and a secondary attack on American practitioners. It happens, yet just like the fraud busters, they want data to show what you have claimed. To back it up. Well when it goes to a certain point people ask for it to be backed up. Personally, the next person that wants to fight me, or insult me, can look me and let me know when they are in a day's drive and I will meet them. Just remember this is not sparring, for everyone wants reality. You see, I had enough of violence, yet every now in then you have to show you can to let people know.

Oh Yeah in the part of the world where some of the challenges are being issued, it is their fall, and the testerone level rise in the fall. Obviously they has no outlet for this issue.


Thread counts, well Gee I bought a new Motorcycle and on nice days I am outsde taking care of my lawn or riding my bike. NAd soon some friends will have their jet-skis running and I will be out on them. Oh Yeah I have a new job, on top of the old job, and been busy there also. And to be serious, if something borders on being rude or insulting, I just close the windows and go do something else.  The Internet is not my life. I keep busy, and teach MA for fun also. Even some private lessons now that the weather is warmer.


Growing Pains, yes this site will have its' growing pains. I believe from the rules here that this site is trying to make it available to all not just to a select few.


None of what I said is meant as a personal attack, only comments. I am far to busy to take any of this too serisously, and get upset over it. Just remember I might need a few days or weeks notice if you are looking for me, since I do travel for Work and Training.

Have a nice day everyone I know I had an excellant one!


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## RyuShiKan (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by fringe_dweller _
> *
> 
> RSK, your threads are most enlightening and your knowledge is without question. When I first registered here you made heaps of valuable posts regarding technique and training methods etc. You and the yiliquan guys provide a lot of great material. Of late though it seems that you spend more time yapping at these guys heels.
> ...



I would rather spend time posting more about the technical training side as well................however as Yiliquan1 stated.........

"to see the right thing, and fail to do it, is to want of courage."

It seems I have to spend more time weeding those people out than doing what I actually like........which sucks........but since I am the one that knows or has found out about their shinanigans I am obliged.


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## Matt Stone (May 26, 2003)

Just for kicks, I opened another browser and did a quick review of every other forum, just to get an idea of what the conversations ongoing were about.

Several fora haven't had a new post in weeks.  No big deal, they are specialized fora with smaller readership than others.

Several fora appear to exist to provide their adherents with mutual support, a la "we really _are_ the best, aren't we!?"  The posts are either along the lines of topic specific (e.g. specific techniques and such that are unique to that particular art form), or about how everyone outside of that art genre is on a lower rung of the martial arts ladder than they are.

Whatever.  

The threads where fraud-busting have occurred were posted in high traffic fora, places that have a higher readership and volume of postings than other fora.  This leads me to believe that, like a large city, the higher the population, the higher the percentage of running into someone weird...

The challenges laid down, and I'm talking about _specific_ challenges, not back and forth "my dad's tougher than your dad" schoolyard threats, have occurred in one specific forum, in one specific thread...

So the idea that the assumption of the entire board having become "less friendly" seems absolutely ridiculous to me...  There are plenty of threads ongoing to satisfactorily outnumber the 3 or so that have been locked, the couple ongoing where tensions are high, or the one wherein the challenge was levied...

I think folks need to check their facts more fully before stirring the pot this way... (*hint, hint there MOB*)

Gotta say that with the activity of late, both good and bad, for and against, I am really reconsidering how I spend my off time...   :idunno:

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

*MartialTalk Policy updates and changes:*

In the past few weeks several things have happened on this board that have caused concerns among both the staff and our members. These concerns cover a wide range of things. This is our attempt to address them.

First, a point of history.

MartialTalk.com was originally setup in August of 2001 to serve as a discussion forum for a regional web portal. It was never in my wildest dreams that it would be as popular as it is, and go truly world wide. In fact, it has long since outgrown and absorbed its parent site.

MartialTalk is for the friendly discussion of martial arts. The key here is this exact phase. My mental image of MartialTalk is a big living room, everyone relaxing with a cool beverage, chatting about their arts, swapping stories, news, techniques and info.

It is not a place to puff your chest, flex your muscles, get on the soapbox and rabble rouse. Nor is it the place to expose your dirty laundry, spread rumors and lies, stab in the back, and run smear campaigns.

It is not the place for egos, attitudes and agendas. 

We have seen the following problems over the recent few weeks flare up greatly. It is our growing concern that left unchecked, these issues will seriously damage, possibly destroy all the hard work we have all put into this site.


*1: Off Topic posts, and major thread drift.*
We have specific forums for specific areas. Please, use them. As our post count climbs higher, it is harder and harder for our staff to keep up with policing everything. We need your active- help. Please post on topic to each thread. If it starts to drift, help steer it back on track by a: -politely- bringing up the original topic and b: starting a new thread for the tangent.


*2: Fraud Busting.*
Every art has its frauds, fakers, and plain misguided folks. Some of them are obvious, some are not. The purpose of MartialTalk is not- to be the place thats the master list of who is legit and who is not. We have -one- forum target at the Bad Budo idea. If you have specific information on such things, post it there. The constant jumping from forum to forum and thread to thread of this desire by several well meaning folks to cleanse the arts and others who constantly feel the need to defend from attacks that often times arent even there is causing us to lock down an excessive number of threads. This cannot be allowed to continue.

Effective immediately, fraud busting outside of the realm of the Bad Budo forum will result in administrative actions against those involved when it disrupts the smooth operation of this forum. If you have concerns about someones rank/status it is to be handled via PM or email. You may post the results of that research in the Bad Budo forum if warranted. Educated martial artists will see the fraud for what he/she is and should just ignore them. This board was set up for friendly discussion of martial arts, not as a soapbox for people's personal crusades.

If you have questions, concerns, etc about someone or their 'qualifications', post it in the 'Bad Budo' forum and address it there -within our guidelines-. Interrogator type posts will not be tolerated any further. Post your questions, and give the others time to answer. The non-responsivness of an individual should be enough. 


*3: Lack of respect or tolerance for differing opinions.*
Frankly, we are tired of the arguments about gender, race, nationality, etc. We are tired of those supposedly educated, experienced, trained martial artists, who tend to regress to school yard bully mentalities and tactics.

Effective immediately, we will begin removing those members who disrupt the smooth operation of this forum. If you cannot follow our rules, if you cannot leave your attitude at the door, we do not want you here. 

There is a difference between a debate and an argument. We welcome debate, as long as it is within our posted guidelines. Take your argument and flames elsewhere. 

The harassment of members, the hiding behind the youre not an XXX so you wouldnt understand, the you master sucks, etc. stuff will stop. Now. I dont care if he thinks hes a Sith-Lord and you know he is nuts. It will cease, immediately.


*4: Adult Content / profanity*
Recently, many posts have skirted the line on mature content. Let me be very specific. If its of a sexual nature it is probably too far. If you cant say it with out cursing like a truck driver, it is probably too far. If you have to reedit your post as its got lots of *** in it, its too far, and if you change all the *** stuff so that your words mostly show up, you will be booted. Circumventing the filters is a suspendable offense, and will be more strongly enforced in the future. We have at least a 5-10% membership under the age of 14. 


*5: The General forum is not the everything goes here forum.*
If it does not involve martial arts, it goes in the locker room, unless it is a joke, in which case it goes in the humor forum. If you need help, post it in the support forum, not buried 50 posts deep in a thread wondering why we don't reply.



We are working to find ways to resolve the issues that have been brought to our attention. This will take time, and it will require the assistance of our members. 1500 members, 10 mods. Theres a lot more members than staff.


This forum and its features is here for your use and enjoyment. It is up to you on how you behave here. You can treat it as a prized resource, or a toilet. Those who do the latter will rapidly be removed.


My staff and I are your hosts. You are all our guests. We expect you to behave as such. We will remove at our discretion any and all those who we feel are not behaving by our rules. This will be done regardless of rank, title, previous contribution or political alignment. If you cannot follow our rules, the door is there. Dont let it hit you in the *** on your way out. We will honor ALL- remove my account requests immediately from this point on. No saves, no pauses. If you are suspended and whine, you will be banned. It is fair to ask why, but once told, take it like a grown up.

Before someone say this is singling out anyone in particular, it is not.


Any questions?


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## J-kid (May 26, 2003)

Well first off i would like to note that this is one of the most friendly boards there are.

Do i believe we have arguments.  Yes and they should be expected they add controvesy and make this a intresting site the last thing i want is this a site that is safe for anyone 2 and up.
If you cant handle a little heat every once and awal then maybe the internet isnt the best place for you.  Sometime people on this site takes this far to seriously and it really weirds me out from time to time.  Also do not confuse controvesy with harrasment there is a big diffrence all out attacks on people aka trolling is not cool and usally is lame and dumb that is what should be cracked down on.

As for fraud i believe frauds must be exposed and that it will help fix a major problem in the martial art world.  There is a site that is all about that www.bullshido.com  but i believe you should be able to talk about it freely here as well.

I find it shocking how the whip is being cracked down for almost no reason and the fact is that childish rules are being added i dont know if it is to protect the website from being sued for poeple branding other people mcdojos but those rules are limiting are discussions on martial arts. 

I believe the old rules were good enough how they weir.


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2003)

What I would like to see is a simple policy proposal. You say it, you prove it. That's it. Nothing difficult. Just a policy where the people who make claims have to provide proof of it when challenged by other people. If they can not, then their post is deleted, and they are never again allowed to mention that fact again. Several claims being made, all unsubstantiated, result in the person being suspended.

You cannot accuse someone without bringing up proof to back it up. You cannot brag about something without being prepared to trot out the proof so that anyone can see it.

Do you _want_ every Ashida Kim, Sato-sensei, Jack Stern type to start showing up here puffing up their chest as they try to convince newbies just how wonderful they are? This does not have to be a screaming match. If the moderators will just _coldly and calmly_ enforce this rule then those that need to brag about things they did but can't prove will find other places to show up at. If you do not, then I suspect that this place will start looking like rec.martial.arts with all of it's self-important masters and super SEAL commandos.

Someone makes a claim. Someone else challenges it. The challenger is not allowed to scream, yell or insult at the other person. But the person who made the claim now has to back it up. If he can't, black mark and he is looking at possible suspension from the board if keeps up this pattern of behavior.

I personally do not feel the need to state things about myself or my experiences too much. I see many other people who post usefull information that does not rely on their word. If we accept this simple policy, which is really a kind of common sense, the frauds and people who disrupt boards with their ego agenda will find it too tough to get by and honest, friendly discussion can take place.


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## Master of Blades (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Just for kicks, I opened another browser and did a quick review of every other forum, just to get an idea of what the conversations ongoing were about.
> 
> Several fora haven't had a new post in weeks.  No big deal, they are specialized fora with smaller readership than others.
> ...



Actually Matt (If I am allowed to call you that) my first post was all my opinion and observations. I never claimed to offer you cold hard facts about the world of Martial Talk. I disagree this post is out of line.....Read some replys like Fringe_Dweller.....They all talk about the fraud busting and the way it spreads from thread to thread. This IMO sets off a string of unfriendly posts. I can see why your not complaining, being part of RSK fraud busting clique. This thread was my opinion....And I wanted to see if any members had noticed or felt there had been a change recently. If thats my opinion and you claim it out of line then this place really has gone down the drain.......


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## Matt Stone (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Master of Blades _
> *Actually Matt (If I am allowed to call you that)*



Feel free...



> *my first post was all my opinion and observations. I never claimed to offer you cold hard facts about the world of Martial Talk.*



No, actually you did...  You attempted to cite the decrease in posts and made a general statement about other members holding certain perceptions about the board currently...  These sound a lot like attempts at offering cold, hard facts, though they fall short...

I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion - far from it.  Rather, that your opinion needn't necessarily be aired if you haven't fully explored the accuracy of it.  There have been times when I had an opinion, and wanted to vent it, but thought better of it and kept it to myself until the opinion was fully formed and thought out.

The threads and members in question are a distinct minority.  Some of them do account for a large number of posts, but the activities you cite are an incredibly small number of the posts being made or threads being contributed to.

Just _my_ opinion...  Sometimes just because we _can_ do a thing, doesn't mean we _should_ do a thing.  And this, enigmatically, is offered up for digestion on many different levels...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


 I disagree this post is out of line.....Read some replys like Fringe_Dweller.....They all talk about the fraud busting and the way it spreads from thread to thread. This IMO sets off a string of unfriendly posts. I can see why your not complaining, being part of RSK fraud busting clique. This thread was my opinion....And I wanted to see if any members had noticed or felt there had been a change recently. If thats my opinion and you claim it out of line then this place really has gone down the drain....... [/B][/QUOTE]


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## Master of Blades (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Feel free...
> 
> 
> ...



My apoligys....I didnt read my first post carefully enough (I have just woken up ). Although you may say its not bad etc I would have to disagree and from the looks of the poll up there......there are those who agree with me....and those who dont. But unlike the Fraud Busting threads we have all managed to get them across nicely in this one  

Anyways, I got the kind of response and action I wanted by bringing up this thread.....However Matt if you still feel it is "Way out of line" then I trust your judgement enough to give you permition to ask a mod or admin to delete this. 

Thanks for listening :asian:


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## yilisifu (May 26, 2003)

Argh!  I work midnights for a day or two and look at what I miss...

Let me say simply that I feel Martialtalk is very freindly but with it's popularity growing, it's bound to attract a fair share of frauds and BS artists.  I think it is fortunate that we have members who are willing and able to shoot down those who would prey on the unsuspecting.
   I realize that it usually results in some heated discussions, but there's really no way to politely or respectfully call someone a "fraud."  And most frauds don't respond respectfully when they're exposed.
   I think we need to focus on quality rather than quantity - I've left numerous other boards because they were primarily interested in the latter and I tired quickly of listening to BS artists spout their wares and tout their endless knowledge of martial arts.

   If we try to maintain some semblance of standards, we may lose a few - but then, you have to ask yourself why they left in the first place?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

A clarification:

We are not saying 'dont talk about the frauds'.

We are saying that here there is a way to do so, and a place to do so.  For those e-budo veterans, use our 'Bad Budo" forum in a similar way to their 'Baffling Budo" forum, but still bound by our rules.

These are not -new- rules, but advance notice of a stricter policy enforcement of existing rules.

To use a few 'hot' examples,
If Ashida Kim signed up, and posted a 'hello' msg, I would not expect the following posts in that thread to be a major rehashing of his resume or past conduct.

If Jeff Delany signed up and posted his event schedule, I would not expect to find it turned into a flaming debate over his 'grandmaster' status.

If George Dillman signed up, and posted his latest seminar report, I would not expect it to turn into a raging debate on his NTKO.

For all of those, there is a place, and a way to do so.


Do we want the liars, frauds, fakes, trolls, criminals and other such here? 
No.

But, turning every thread involving the individual into a seach for answers is not the answer. 

You guys said it well *"with it's popularity growing, it's bound to attract a fair share of frauds and BS artists. "*

We want them exposed, but not at the cost of our 'friendlyness'.
I don't want to have to burn the village in order to save it.

yilisifu made many good points there.  By stricter enforcement, we may lose a few folks.  But, we may also gain some too.  Those who find that threads now stay more on topic, and are more focused on the meat, rather than always wandering off to a non related tangent, or being locked due to a heated (and often times unrelated) argument.


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## Kirk (May 26, 2003)

Just chiming in with opinion here, but I think limiting it to the
"bad budo" section ... well ... sucks.  Heck, the person in question
might not even check out that section to defend his or herself.
I think it should just be limited to one thread, plus bad budo.
That way more witness it.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 26, 2003)

A note in the apropriate section could point at the more in depth discussion in the 'bad budo' area.

Other ideas are:

Person has varying claims on website:
"ok X, you claim to have the following.... We have some questions for you concerning this.  We have started a thread in the bad-budo forum addressing these questions so as to not disrupt the flow of this thread.  Please address them there"

Person claims to be X:
"ok Y, you claim to be X.... We have some questions for you concerning this.  We have started a thread in the bad-budo forum addressing these questions so as to not disrupt the flow of this thread.  Please address them there"

Person posts information that is contrary to your art, experiences, etc:
"X, You state that in ART you do Y.  My experience indicates otherwise.  Will you clarify how you determined that?"  Or something similar.  This is fine as long as the question fits the thread it is in.  If not, a new thread in the appropriate forum should be started, and a link placed in the original thread.

"Hey ButtHead!  Your Karate sucks and your master sucks, and, and  *&^&&*&*%*%*&*%" type stuff however will win you an Aerosmith CD....by this I mean a "Permanent Vacation" 

Persons coming in from other boards with a history may or may not be welcome.  A good part of IF they are is how they handle themselves while here.  People booted from other boards will most likely not find warm welcomes here. 

We are seeking to improve both the quality and quantity of our members and their posts.  Not to stifle or censor, but stear and direct.  Hope that makes sence. 

:asian:


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## MountainSage (May 26, 2003)

Individual need to have the maturity to drop it.  Kaith and I have had one very intense debate about the Iraq war that came to point that we were not going to change each others opinions and all revelant information had been presented, so I believe we both DROPPED IT.   That is a measure of respect and maturity. There is a point when a discussion can go to far and degrade to an arguement, learn to sense that point and respect it.  This is indeed part of BB training.  We, on this forum must learn to be BB, not fighters.  If you want to fight I am sure there are numerous other forums to lay waste to those that have a differring opinion.  I'll stop there because I feel a long winded oration being to build and you and I don't have that much time or energy.

Mountain Sage


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## clapping_tiger (May 26, 2003)

Just want to chime in and say this is one of the best forums I have found. I used to be at sherdog.com, I don't go there anymore because all it is arguing and calling each other newbie, and the same old crap each day. I don't like bullshido.com either, just about the same as sherdog. These two, along with many other forums, are filled with what I feel to be Keyboard Warriors (there are a few on those boards who try to keep the discussions going and have something worth while to say)who are just looking for arguments, not discussion.  Where is the respect that most claim to have.  In my opinion anytime you have a place where people from all around the world come together and discuss any topic that they are passionate about, people are going to butt heads, that is to be expected. But on the same note, anytime you post your thoughts, be prepared to have someone challenge your ideas. Its going to happen, if you dont like it you shouldnt be posting then.  But keep up the good work Moderators, and keep Martial Talk one of the most respectable and professionally operated MA Forum I have seen.


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## J-kid (May 26, 2003)

Kaith are you saying that if ashida kim one of the biggest fruads by far following count date and the rest of those mystic ninjia creeps where to become a member i couldnt flame them for what they are doing to the martial arts world and i would have to put up with hearing there bs?  That dosnt sound right we all know they are frauds.


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## chufeng (May 26, 2003)

Better a "newbie" than a "wannabe," afterall, we all had to start at the same level...a no-nothing beginner...

Some stay, some don't...some stay so long that they become "has-beens"...but you know what the great Muhammed Ali (aka Cascius Clay) said about that:

"Better a has-been than a never-was!"

:asian:
chufeng


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## Jill666 (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Any questions? *



No. You are very clear.


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## arnisador (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Judo-kid _
> *Kaith are you saying that if ashida kim one of the biggest fruads by far following count date and the rest of those mystic ninjia creeps where to become a member i couldnt flame them for what they are doing to the martial arts world and i would have to put up with hearing there bs?*



Flame, no. But that doesn't mean you can't ask questions, point out facts, etc. This should be done in the Bad Budo forum. Otherwise, use the Ignore feature. You may always disagree with any advice given by a person and give your own advice.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## KennethKu (May 27, 2003)

I heard about the repeated warnings of about seriously getting rid off contributing members who "violate" the Friendly rule.

How come there isn't anything said about getting rid of FRAUD? What is the rationale of welcoming them here? I hear words about NOT welcoming fraud, but I see policy and enforcement of WELCOMING fraud to come and "launder" their schemes at our "Friendly" forum.  This is not MT's intention. But that is the service MT is providing to scam artists.   As long as they talk nice and be friendly, scamsters have a free run of this forum. They can simply ignore the Bad Budo section. Every scam artist knows that there are suckers bornt every second. All the scam artists need is a place to repeat their lies often enough to make the scam work.

Shouldn't there be some policies and enforcement that filter out the garbage scams? Why would MT want to be the "laundering" service for scam artists?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 27, 2003)

You make a good point.

We would need a way to verify statements.  Tracking an established lineage and ferreting out who is falsifying a cert isn't too hard when one has the time, resources and contacts to do so...provided you check with the right organization.

As an example, when I test for my black belt in Modern Arnis, calling the PI or most MA orgs will generate a false negative. You will have to contact the organization I tested under.  Verifying older MABB's is much harder as in many cases, the paper trail is just not there.  I believe Kelly Worden recently tried to create a 'family tree' and encountered some challenges in just that manner.  I'm uncertain how he resolved it.

It becomes harder when trying to verify the 'innovators' and seperate them from the 'paper mill' and 'backyard wonders'.


I've had a number of people email n PM me ideas on just this (yourself included) that I'm still working through. Its been a hecktic week for me...but, I've almost got things in order so I can get more things moving here again. :asian:


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## tonbo (May 27, 2003)

I think that MT is better than the alternatives, no doubt about that.

Frauds, liars, posers, etc. will be *everywhere* you turn.  Look at folks like Count Dante.  In the 70's, he was advertising in comic books; if he were alive today, he'd more than likely be here on the boards, pumping his own greatness.  It's gonna happen.

The thing that I have seen here is that people get called on their BS.  There really is no "friendly" way to do it, since if you don't blatantly state the facts and call someone on their crap, they will not get the point.  It's like most bullies:  asking them nicely to stop pounding your head will generally not work.  

When it comes to these frauds, hey....better the fraud's ego gets a little bruising than a bunch of people pay them money to learn "real" martial arts.

As far as arguing and so on, well, it happens.  Any time you open up a forum for discussion, arguments will follow.  However, as has been stated before (in this thread), generally, the arguments stay pretty sane.  When they get out of control, they are shut down fast.

All in all, I think MT is a great place to be.  I have learned some good stuff here, and "met" a number of people that I am proud to say I have spoken with.

Keep up the good work, guys!!  :asian: 

Peace--


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## KennethKu (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *You make a good point.
> 
> We would need a way to verify statements.  Tracking an established lineage and ferreting out who is falsifying a cert isn't too hard when one has the time, resources and contacts to do so...provided you check with the right organization.
> ...



There is no question of the complexity that may evolve in this area.

I would suggest that posters qualify, or required to qualify, their info/advice as either statements of facts or simply a personal opinion.  

Statements of facts are required to be substantiated with verifiable proof.  These are subjected to debate and challenge, in a professional manner.  Statements of opinions are basically a "take it or leave it" material.  If some one posted that Chin Na can do this and this and this, that just one BS post looking for BS.  While to the experienced, they know it is obviously pure BS. However, frausters tend to camouflage such BS with misleading qualifier such as, "In my 25 years work as an FBI trainer [red flag], I have used Chin Na to do this and this and this".  This only serves to mislead the uninitiated.  Some of us would feel obligated to jump up and wave the BS flag.  If the statement was CLEARLY stated as a personal opinion, then no one would really care.  Afterall, that is just XYZ's personal opinion.

Quite a lot of argument started when people presented their personal opinions as statement of facts and then resorted to," I am a so and so in ABC or I teach the SAS, IDF whatever or I am a *th dan in BS Ryu, THEREFORE what I say IS true!"  This attempt to peddle personal opinions as statement of facts and using their unverified claim of credentials is responsible for a lot of fraud busting.


Not that this a magic solution. But this would at least keep the information/advice posted at MT,  truthful and verifiable, while those that cannot be verified, are clearly labelled as PERSONAL OPINIONS. At least that would cut down fraudsters posting BS.

There is no way to be fraud proof, at least we can try to keep the quality of the information high.


P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities?  I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading  claims. Where is your sense of integrity?)


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## Kirk (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> *P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities?  I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading  claims. Where is your sense of integrity?) *



If the only posts in a days time is fraud busting .. then you've
circumvented the point behind the board in the first place.   Is
that acceptable to you?

Just because someone shows up here that has skill and 
knowledge of an art, does not automatically make them contributers of more than beginners and intermediate MAists
who like to establish a sense of community (as much as one
can without face2face interaction), and fellowship.   Plus 
getting  a good thread going.  I'm not claiming to be one of those 
ppl, but they are out there.

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *. . .
> 
> I'm not saying you aren't entitled to your own opinion - far from it.  Rather, that your opinion needn't necessarily be aired if you haven't fully explored the accuracy of it.  There have been times when I had an opinion, and wanted to vent it, but thought better of it and kept it to myself until the opinion was fully formed and thought out.
> ...



Yiliquan1,

True, people can have opinions, yet when I stated one of my own, I was explicitly told not to have it. I was told I was wrong to express it. Hmmmm?

Also, having the priviledge of doing something (* CAN *) and then deciding not too (* Should or Should Not *). Very Nice.

Now, I just wish everyone would read this and think about it for a few. Oh Yes, I digested it and realize that I might have less heart burn not posting this, yet, I see it differently, and think it should be said again, and I hope you read it, and try to digest it yourself.

Opinions are good. Arguments / discussions are fine. If someone is wrong just because they disagree then I say that is wrong in itself.

Enjoy Life :asian:


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## arnisador (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *If the only posts in a days time is fraud busting .. then you've
> circumvented the point behind the board in the first place.   Is
> that acceptable to you? *



Well put. Who'd want to join a site that looks like nothing but lineage arguments?

Luckily, most of MartialTalk has discussions going on. The various arts fora are not seeing as much of this type of thing.

Also, no one is saying that one can't comment on fraud-related issues--it's the beating a dead horse thing.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## A.R.K. (May 27, 2003)

I would like to contribute a point or two.



> Statements of facts are required to be substantiated with verifiable proof.



This sounds like a very good idea on the surface.  But _verifiable proof_  might differ from individual to individual in regards to the martial arts.  For example, if Mr. Smith claims to be in the military or in Law enforcement then that is a very easy thing to verify.  The state/government will have the proper records, work history, certifications etc.  Very cut and dry.

But the martial arts is not very cut and dry.  As I've used before, if Mr. Smith is a 1st Dan in TKD thats great.  But then maybe its not so great.  What if Mr. Smith only has a _school_  certificate?  Yes there are such things.  Does that mean he is not legitimate?  What if Mr. Smith is a member of the Ildokwon but not the Kukkiwon?  To some it wouldn't make a difference and to others a world of difference.  To some, Mr. Smith *has*  to be in a certain organization to be recognized.  To others there are several fine TKD organizations and they would recognize a person who is recognized by any of them.  And yet others worry exclusively about actual abiltiy and consider _paper_ as a secondary consideration.



> my 25 years work as an FBI trainer [red flag], I have used Chin Na to do this and this and this



I don't see this as a problem.  If someone wants to know if this individual indeed was an FBI trainier, as noted above, it is a very easy matter.  The problem that I have seen however, is that this type of information has been asked for with the individual giving the resourses to follow up on it.  But then the requestor never follows up on the resourse yet continues to post that the individual is being elusive.  That is not only unfair but dishonest.

If an individual offers resourses and the requestor doesn't follow up then that needs to be it.  

And I suppose the same could go for the MA's as well.  If someone requests _proof_  of rank for example then the individual could post what he/she has.  That might take the form of a school certificate or an organizational certificate.  Taking into account once again that not everyone is going to be happy because there simply are no universal standards that encompass all MA's.  

Some may have a school, style and organizational certificates.  Some only a school.  What is more valid?  Could it not be both?  doesn't it boil down to ability and knowledge?  Of course it does.  And if the induvidual has only a school/instructor certificate, does anyone know every instructor in every style/system?   Some certificates, such as the Kukkiwon are very distinctive and forgeries are easy to spot.  But what of individual school certificates?  The poster should be judged more so on the content of their post.  If Mr. Smith comes in and posts all kinds of credentials then posts comments like he's killed 20 people with his super secret death touch...well maybe he's not on the up and up.  

Once a question has been asked and an answer given or resourses given then let it be done.  If the answer or resourses are not to the requestors liking, well nobody can please everyone.  But it is not a reason to continually hound or criticize over nit picking issues.

I give the mods/admins much credit for a big job.  I've done things to add to there headache and for that they have my apology.  Your house, your rules.  

Cheers.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *    Well put. Who'd want to join a site that looks like nothing but lineage arguments? *



The issues brought up have never really been about lineage per say..they were more about outrageous claims to rank and title. There is a difference.
In Korea, Japan and Okinawa there are organizations with there HQs in these countries. These HQs have some pretty high ranks in them so it seems odd that someone would claim a rank just as high or higher than someone in the HQ.
For example: The Head of Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate Do Kyokai is Miyahara Katsuya, 9th dan.
If I say I am a 10th dan in Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate Do Kyokai I am going to look stupid and be called a liar for sure.
The only time lineage was questioned was when folks said they were promoted/recognized by their peers. Its a joke to give rank out in a style you dont train in. Talk about an arrogant!
I dont give ranks out in Shorin Ryu or Kyokushin or any art except the one I train in..and I dont even give anything higher than 1st kyu.
What is this recognizing rank nonsense???????
Who is anyone to recognize rank outside their own style? 
Yiliquan1 is a friend of mine that I have trained with. He has some sort of rank above shodan in Yili.not sure what it is. Do I recognize his rank? I dont see how I could since I am not sure what the criteria in his style are for ranking someone, not to mention not qualified. He could perform all the forms he knows from his system and I wouldnt know if they were right or wrong. Do I care what rank he is? Not at allwe get together to Rock-n-Roll not waltz around recognizing each others rank.  

When people come to my dojo and wear a colored belt I dont care if they wear it for class. I am not going to make them run out and buy another belt. 
I have had guys claim anywhere from 3rd to 7th dans come and train with meI let them wear their belts.
Wearing a high rank belt from another Karate school can be a double edge sword in my dojo..most of the time they cant do what we do and look rather foolish wearing such a high rank when they have trouble with some of the more basic drills and techniques and eventually take it off and throw on a white beltbut I NEVER ask them to.



> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *    Also, no one is saying that one can't comment on fraud-related issues--it's the beating a dead horse thing.
> *



Some of those accused of beating the dead horse were in fact wrongly accused and it was actually the people being questioned in said issue that kept feeling persecuted for no reason that mentioned the dead issues.


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## fringe_dweller (May 27, 2003)

A few points on different issues...

Re Bad Budo
Would it be possible to haver a sticky thread in the General MA discussions where you can post a link to the Bad Budo section if there's a thread that people should be aware of? That way those who should be recognised as frauds are still noted in General Discussion, but the threads themselves are contained to that one area and we don't have to wade through lineage arguments in order to find other important info.


Quote from Kenneth Ku

P.S. (Note: People whine about excessive fraud busting. If there was no fraudulent claims in the first place, do you think there would be all these fraud busting activities? I hear people whine about this group of "obssessive" fraudbusters, who happen to have always contributed far more than those who complain. But I have yet to hear any of those who complain, step up to the plate and demand something be done about the fraudulent/misleading claims. Where is your sense of integrity?)

End quote

I would like to think that I am not one of these people... rather someone who is asking everyone to take one or two steps back and look at the priorities of this board. Absolutely, the fraud busting must be done, and I take my hat off to those who are doing it. Having trained for only two years myself I don't think I could pick a fraud at five paces. The only comment I'm making is that if we spend 90% of our time exposing frauds, it only leaves 10% of our time for posting discussion about other things (yes this is an entirely huge exaggeration - just trying to get the point across).

Respectfully,


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## RyuShiKan (May 27, 2003)

To be honest I am not interested in spending a majority of my time busting frauds, however, it just so happens that I have information that I have complied over the years on certain issues and feel obliged to share it with those that would be taken in by charlatans, liars and frauds.

These fraud busting threads get dragged out because the frauds, even when shown evidence of their own bogus claims or lies, dont give up. 
Why are frauds so tenacious at defending themselves? Because if they give up and go away they admit guilt by non-attendance..........or so it would seem to the other posters on the board.


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## Matt Stone (May 27, 2003)

I am a Senior Level 2 in the art of Yiliquan, created out of Baixingquan, Xingyiquan, Taijiquan and Baguazhang, as taught to Sifu Phillip Starr by Chen Wing-chou, and released to the public formally in 1982.

I studied with Sifu Starr from 1985 - 1987, then joined the Army.  In 1990, when I got out, I went back to training, until I was called up again in 1991 for Desert Storm.  From my return to civilian life a few months later until 1995 when I went back on active duty, I trained haphazardly with Sifu Tim Heuertz who, in 1998, promoted me to Senior Level 1.  In 2000, Sifu Starr promoted me to Senior Level 2.

Senior Level 1 is the first level of "black belt" training in Yiliquan, so I very roughly approximate a nidan or so.  However, due to the nature of our training vs. other styles, and their training against still other styles, as the content of any one style varies from any other single style, what constitutes "black belt" for one could quite certainly rank as much lower or higher in another school...

Whatever.

If I now started my own school, created what I called my "own style" with these qualifications, I would expect folks to call me out.  Hell, *I* would call me out.

But, if anything, I go out of my way to avoid discussing my rank, since I don't think I even deserve the Level 1 I tested for a few years back...  Old argument that Chufeng and I have periodically, basically I just shut up because The Old Man says I am a Level 2, and that's that...  

Whatever amount of respect I earn from anyone usually comes from the fact that I'm not afraid to get smacked around, and when I get smacked around I get back up again rather than wimper in a fetal ball on the floor...  That usually goes a long way.

*ARK* - 

I "recognize" that you have years of training and study.  I "recognize" that you may well have a good amount of experience and knowledge to back up your skill.  Your rank doesn't mean much to me, though...  About as much as mine means to me!  But after having discussed things with you, your belts are fine by me...  It doesn't necessarily fit the way I think things should be done, but then Tae Kwon Do and JKD never impressed me either but they seem to go on just fine without my approval... 

***CAVEAT - That was just a cheap shot at humor at the expense of TKD and JKD people everywhere.  No real offense was intended nor implied. ***

When I first met RyuShiKan, I was impressed that he claimed a yondan under Taika Oyata...  I was even more impressed, however, when he introduced me to the ancient Okinawan art of "floor sucking."  _That_ is what got my attention more than anything else...

When someone cites rank in a style they never really studied as a credential of some sort, there is a problem.  I learned Naihanchi Shodan from RyuShiKan, and nothing more.  I train on it constantly because it is very similar in nature to a Baixing form in Yiliquan called Gan Ba Hu, and I like Naihanchi more.  But I do not have any rank of any sort in Ryu Te.  If I said that RyuShiKan had promoted me to shodan, folks better start asking questions...  I learned Modern Arnis from nbcdecon while in Japan, as well.  I never tested formally, in fact I refused to do so when the matter was brought up - I just didn't want to do anything other than train; the skills were more important than the paper, and my wishes were respected.  Now, if I toss a brown or black belt in Modern Arnis into my resume, I think that Renegade would start raising eyebrows, since it was one of his black belts that I trained under (and truthfully, I would expect that individual to show up on my doorstep, sticks in hand, to see if I warranted such a claim! :uhohh: ).

I think that is everyone's point.  At some time, we have to accept a certain amount of clarification as worthy of respect.  If a person were trained in Kikmiarse-do-ryu-jutsu, and could show that he learned from Billy Ray Doe, son of Bobby Ray Doe, the direct student of Kim Is Kul and Jim Son Bob, the creators of that art in North Korea, then fine.  But when Billy Ray says he magically produced his fighting art after spending too long on the portapotty at work and having had a revelation from the intensity of the fumes, then starts busting out with this weird John Travolta looking dogi and moves that make a hamster twitching from nerve gas poisoning look skillful, well, then Houston has a problem...  

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 27, 2003)

Now that I know you are Level 2 can I hit you hard now instead of holding back?  



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> When I first met RyuShiKan, I was impressed that he claimed a yondan under Taika Oyata... *




Actually I never claimed that .you just asked and I answered.
In fact you are one of the few people that I have ever told my rank to. I usually just say black belt.



> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *
> If I said that RyuShiKan had promoted me to shodan, folks better start asking questions... *



They sure would! RyuTe® people would start asking me how I could do that since Mr. Oyata is the only one in the Assoc. that can promote to shodan.


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## Matt Stone (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Now that I know you are Level 2 can I hit you hard now instead of holding back? *



Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with _last_ time if not "hard?"  Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer...  :uhohh:



> *Actually I never claimed that .you just asked and I answered.
> In fact you are one of the few people that I have ever told my rank to. I usually just say black belt.*



I stand corrected...  I asked not because I cared, but to know with whom I was dealing.  I still say that shot to the liver was what won me over completely...



> *They sure would! RyuTe® people would start asking me how I could do that since Mr. Oyata is the only one in the Assoc. that can promote to shodan. *



My point exactly...

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 27, 2003)

> I "recognize" that you have years of training and study. I "recognize" that you may well have a good amount of experience and knowledge to back up your skill. Your rank doesn't mean much to me, though... About as much as mine means to me! But after having discussed things with you, your belts are fine by me



Matt, I appreciate your words :asian:   I very much enjoyed our discussion and the talk gave me some very good insight.  As I've mentioned, the Pangainoon rank was rushed and in 20/20 hindsight a poor decsion on my part.  I felt I needed it to add weight to my own system and in this view I was wrong.  And as I no longer teach this discipline I really shouldn't have been concerned with continued ranking in it.  Whats done is done, however I don't have to continue to include it as such in my bio.  I have training in Pangainoon, thats good enough.

And again, in reference to our conversation I view ranking in my own system differently.  I've always held that a 10th Dan was an honorary rank really.  Perhaps its _fairly_  universal for a Founder to be recognized at such rank, but I certainly would never walk around wearing it!  And as such I don't wear any particular rank now in A.R.K.  In this way I simply wear my plain ole Black Belt from years ago.  No stripes, lettering or trinkets just plain the way I prefer it.  In this way I set the example to my students to not focus on rank but on ability and knowledge.

We all have incorrect thinking from time to time and need to adjust.  I appreciate input from you and Chufeng that have helped guide me on several issues.  And it has helped me to refocus on Proverbs 27:2.  Something I had forgotten for a time.  

Thank you
:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with last time if not "hard?"  Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer...  :uhohh:
> *




I never hit any of my students hard........it wouldn't be right.
They do get a very small "taste" though.


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## D.Cobb (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *Ummm, so what the hell was that you smacked me with last time if not "hard?"  Maybe I will have to postpone that trip to Japan a little while longer...  :uhohh:*




A word of warning for you Matt, I passed on a greeting from Robert to Pat McCarthy, and asked him what Robert was like.
He gave me a fairly vivid description, and told me that, "He has the best technique, I have ever seen in a man of his size."

Man, I've got this huge burn to get to Japan and train some Ryu Te.

--Dave

:asian:


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## KennethKu (May 28, 2003)

> ... The poster should be judged more so on the content of their post. .....



If the poster put his claim of credential to support the content of his post, the poster's claim of credential is open to scrutiny.

If the poster simply stated that the post was his personal opinions, then it would be NOTHING more than just that, a personal opinion.

If you made a claim of rank and title, be prepared to back it up. If you couldn't, be prepared to accept that your claim would be considered as UNVERIFIED.   The problem at MT was some people ridiculously insisted that everyone else MUST accept the non-existing proof (nothing more than philosphical babbling labelled as proof) they presented.   

Some claims cannot be verified, and must be correctly labelled as unverified claims.  If people want to present unverfiable claims, they must live with the consequence.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 28, 2003)

?

Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues.  Person is no longer a member.

Is their rank valid? or Invalid?

What if the org. refuses to verify any information on former members?


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## Kirk (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *?
> 
> Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues.  Person is no longer a member.
> ...



GREAT point!  Some orgs even "blot out" the former member's
info.


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## A.R.K. (May 28, 2003)

> Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues. Person is no longer a member.



And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that _recognition_  is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration.  Not much legitimacy in that.  

And I stand by the opinion that one does not need to belong to any particular organization to be legitimate.  Rank being the arbitrary thing that it is.  In essense the only requirement is that someone with more _rank_  than you is willing to test and sign off on an advancement.  But then he/she needs to have gotten to their position the same way up the chain of command ultimately from someone who doesn't have any _rank_ .  Kind of a curious catch 22.

A certificate, be it school, style, system or organization should be fine.  The only real consideration is ability.  And that varies quite as widely as does requirements.  Martial Artist stated in another post that one can obtain a BB by attending two sessions per week for a year and paying $500.  Some say perhaps 8-10 years for a 1st Dan.  Who is right?

It would seem rank is an arbitrary item indeed.

:asian:


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## KennethKu (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *?
> 
> Person claims a rank with an organization that requires annual dues.  Person is no longer a member.
> ...



There are cases where individuals were expelled from their organizations for various reasons. Some were expelled for political reasons, ie. internal power struggle, defying the directive of the leadership etc. Some were expelled for valid reasons, ie violating the constitution or bylaw of the organizations.  

Upon expulsion, the rank and certification are deleted from the central registry. The organization would no longer recognize the individual's membership and rank.

If that is the case, then it should be disclosed as a matter of fact. There is no reason for people to lie or cover up the fact.

If you voluntary withdraw from the organization, you should disclose that as a matter of fact too.

Let the truth be known. People will judge for themselves if they care to value your input.


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## KennethKu (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that _recognition_  is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration.  Not much legitimacy in that.


That would be the case if you belong to some crooked organizations.  



> And I stand by the opinion that one does not need to belong to any particular organization to be legitimate.


The right message, but from the wrong messenger.



> Rank being the arbitrary thing that it is.  In essense the only requirement is that someone with more _rank_  than you is willing to test and sign off on an advancement.  But then he/she needs to have gotten to their position the same way up the chain of command ultimately from someone who doesn't have any _rank_ .  Kind of a curious catch 22.



It is incorrect to make such over generalized characterization. Rank is far from an arbitrary thing as you might have imagined. 

What is true in the typical crooked organizations, is not necessary so in legitimate organizations.  It is  wrong to project the dysfunction of fraudulent organizations onto legitimate organizations.  




> A certificate, be it school, style, system or organization should be fine.  The only real consideration is ability.  And that varies quite as widely as does requirements.  Martial Artist stated in another post that one can obtain a BB by attending two sessions per week for a year and paying $500.  Some say perhaps 8-10 years for a 1st Dan.  Who is right?
> 
> It would seem rank is an arbitrary item indeed.



Again, rank is not arbitrary. A fraudulent 6th dan in TKD issued by a McDojang is not in the same league as that issued by Kukkiwon/WTF, ITF, GTF or other legitimate TKD federations.  It would only be arbitrary if one considered them the same.  One is toilet paper, the others are properly tested, evaluated and certified.


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## A.R.K. (May 28, 2003)

Ken, in your response to Kaith..



> Upon expulsion, the rank and certification are deleted from the central registry. The organization would no longer recognize the individual's membership and rank.



Your talking about being kicked out.  He was talking about being dropped for no longer paying an annual due.  Hence my comment...



> And Kaith, this opens up the consideration that recognition is based on a financial consideration not an ability consideration. Not much legitimacy in that.



Your comment...



> That would be the case if you belong to some crooked organizations.



...Doesn't make sense.  If a legitimate organization requires annual dues, and you fail to pay them they may in turn drop you from their role.

I commented to the effect that an individual need not belong to any organization.  You commented...



> The right message, but from the wrong messenger.



Why?  Care to explain what you mean by this comment?

You commented...



> What is true in the typical crooked organizations, is not necessary so in legitimate organizations. It is wrong to project the dysfunction of fraudulent organizations onto legitimate organizations.





> Again, rank is not arbitrary. A fraudulent 6th dan in TKD issued by a McDojang is not in the same league as that issued by Kukkiwon/WTF, ITF, GTF or other legitimate TKD federations. It would only be arbitrary if one considered them the same. One is toilet paper, the others are properly tested, evaluated and certified.



I find this a bit hypocritical.  You mentioned the Kukkiwon so we can discuss that.  An organization that allows rank jumping if the appropriate fee is paid.  An organization that has been rife with internal corruption causing splits in leadership.  An organization where undeseved Dan ranking can be obtained under the _right_  curcumstances etc.  I don't need to go on.  But this type of behavior in _legitimate_  organizations is not exclusive to just this one organization.  It boils down to 'pay them money and they will recognize you'.  Whether or not you deserve recognition is another matter they seemed unconcerned with.

So yes rank is arbitrary.  What is MORE legitimate....

An organization that has no part in your training, yet issues a certificate they say is credible provided you pay them their set fee?

OR

An instructor that knows you first hand, has trained you, knows your background/heart/ability/commitment etc and then ranks you as he/she sees fit based on that information?

Money paid to a faceless entity doesn't make a rank true.  Time spent with a human being and learning what they teach does.

My opinion.

:asian:


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## chufeng (May 28, 2003)

What's all this crap about rank?

   

I thought we were beyond this discussion...

 
chufeng


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## Bob Hubbard (May 28, 2003)

ok, lets leave the personal differences aside...we're making some interesting insights here...lets keep it moving professionally.

You both hit on many things.  

I think the summary here is : A person can have a rank self issued, issued by an accredited organization, revolked for many reasons, issued by non-accredited organizations.  (Did I miss any?)

Now, obviously, the prefered way to obtain a rank is by testing in front of your peers in the art, preferably in front of the 'head'.  This organization will keep publicly accessed records for easy verification by the so inclined.

The least prefered is to run it off on your printer yourself.

Agreed so far?


Now... here is the hypethetical question:
I claim to be a certain rank.  I give you the organization and an aproximate date.  I can present you with a certificate.  This certificate is authentic.  The organization claims to have no record of my rank.  Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'.  They simply have no record.  All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.

Am I legit or not?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *What's all this crap about rank?
> 
> 
> ...



Not so much a question on 'rank' as to verifying legitimacy.



As I think this threads also wandered way off topic, I'll split it off sometime when I have a few minutes.


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## Matt Stone (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Now... here is the hypethetical question:
> I claim to be a certain rank.  I give you the organization and an aproximate date.  I can present you with a certificate.  This certificate is authentic.  The organization claims to have no record of my rank.  Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'.  They simply have no record.  All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.
> 
> Am I legit or not? *



You bet.  All day long.  No worries.  But does your certificate claim you are Master of Time, Space and Dimension, or just that you have a 2nd dan or 3d dan in some art...?

I think that is the crux of the difference.

If a person belongs to a small school, with no current affiliation (for whatever reason), that keeps to itself and produces quality students, then the paper issued by that school is legit (association or no).

If a person belongs to a small school, with no current affiliation (for whatever reason), that keeps to itself but produces questionable quality students and/or disproportionate numbers of high ranking black belts and/or makes outlandish claims to mystical/magical skills, then their paper should be burned...  

How's that from someone who lately seems to be coming across as an Inquisitorial Witch Hunter? 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## Kirk (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> * But does your certificate claim you are Master of Time, Space and Dimension*



OOOOOOOOLD Steve Martin stand up reference, most excellent.
Although you've shown yourself to not being a spring chicken  

Does that sentence even make sense?


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## chufeng (May 29, 2003)

...and then I want to go to Europe 

chufeng


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## Kirk (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *...and then I want to go to Europe
> 
> chufeng *



ROFLMAO!  There's more of "us" out there than I thought. :rofl: 

I used to do amatuer stand up (actually got paid gigs too, but
more often than not, it was freebies).  Whenever there was a 
bunch of comedians, pro and am alike altogether, we'd screw 
off doing various stuff on stage.  Many times, theft of other 
people's material would happen, and we'd all shout out "HACK!
HACK!" (this was never in front of a real audience).  I'd incessantly
hack Steve Martin's old stand up bits (my favorite being "you can't
put on a Finley sprinkler head with a Langstrom 7 inch Gangley
wrench!) ... of all these guys (30 being average) not a single one
ever caught the theivery ... they all thought it was original 
material (I DID enlighten them, I gave credit where it was due).

Then I come here and 2 ppl are familiar with it ... TOO odd!

Sorry to stream off topic.


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## KennethKu (May 29, 2003)

> ....Now... here is the hypethetical question:
> I claim to be a certain rank. I give you the organization and an aproximate date. I can present you with a certificate. This certificate is authentic. The organization claims to have no record of my rank. Its not a 'didnt pay' or 'was dropped'. They simply have no record. All signers (witnesses as well as the GM who did sign it) are either dead or unlocatable.
> 
> Am I legit or not?



First of all, that would be a solvable problem.  In a typical organization, there is an established procedure for rank testing.  Given your rank, time, place of test, names of the testers, names of your instructors, it is virtually impossible that your rank certificate existed in a vaccum.  Some credible person associated with the organization would have known about your existence and your involvement with the organization.  Now, needless to say that may require some resources to to the investigative work.  

The hypothetical situation is extremely rare.  It may be possible to have paperwork snafu. But to also have all the people involved also "not available"?  How convenient? Wouldn't you say?


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## KennethKu (May 29, 2003)

ARk

You are the wrong person to comment on the validity and authentication of rank, or membership in the right organization, in light of your claims of ranks in martial arts and memberships in a laundry list of organizations with leadership in one that turns out to be an outright fraudulent organization run by a convicted liar. 

Furthermore, your diehard, but dead wrong, assumption that legitimate federations operate in the same corrupt mode of fraudulent fronts, made productive discussion unattenable. Sir,  it would be helpful to educate yourself in how credible organizations run their operations.

Until then, I do not wish to engage in further discussion with you on this matter.


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## tshadowchaser (May 29, 2003)

We have a section called bad budo please keep comments such as the one above to that section.
Repeated flamming of a person and his/her system,credentials ,etc. proves nothing, it only starts more flame wars.
 The constant demeaning of those you do not agree with is NOT what this forum is about


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## A.R.K. (May 29, 2003)

tshadowchaser,

I am not particuarly bothered by Ken's cracks.  He has never researched into my background, therefore any opinion he may have is based soley on personal biased and not any fact.  Unsupported statements are easily seen for what they are.  But thank you. :asian: 

In regards to organizations, which this thread has drifted to, a couple of comments.  For starters, I have no leadership role in the organization that Ken refers to.  It is a fraternal organization only.  State or country 'reps' are merely window dressing and don't actually carry any type of authority or special privelege.  There is no 'authority' that needs to be carried.  It is merely a big clubhouse in which members fellowship, network or have information exchanges.  That pretty much wraps it up.  Any further comments can be addressed in the appropriate section as you have directed.

In regards to the 'legitimate' federations that Ken refers to, we simply are in disagreement.  Based on the reasons I have listed previously, I can't understand why he would continue to view them as credible or legitimate.  But he is entitled to his opinion.  

I see organizations, any organizations as a _nicety_  but not a _necessity._   I think Yiliquan 1 hit the nail on the head in his previous post on the topic.  How can an organization that has no direct knowledge of you personally lend  more credibility than an actual person that knows and trains you personally?  

If the organization is free I would feel better about their motives not being $ motivated.  Or if their $ didn't go into their own pockets [above operating costs]I could also see their motives being more 'pure'.  But in my opinion the majority of them are 'pay us and we'll recognize you'.

With respect
:asian:


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## KennethKu (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *We have a section called bad budo please keep comments such as the one above to that section.
> Repeated flamming of a person and his/her system,credentials ,etc. proves nothing, it only starts more flame wars.
> The constant demeaning of those you do not agree with is NOT what this forum is about *



ARK asked for elaboration to my previous statement regarding him being the wrong messenger regarding some issues concerning rank. I was merely stating the accurate facts in answering him and to further explain to him the basis why I find further discussion with him regarding this matter cannot be productive. One cannot engage in productive discussion with someone who insists on substituting his philosophy for reality.  Rank is not arbitrary. One cannot "arbitrary" get ranks in legitimate organizations. It is absurd to state otherwise.


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## A.R.K. (May 29, 2003)

Ken,

Again we are in disagreement about this issue.  I feel your _accurate facts_  are merely personal opinions that lack validity.

One *can*  arbitrarily gain rank in your _legitimate_  organizations, this has already been amply demonstrated.  Ignoring the facts as presented will not make them untrue.  

I simply do not see you as qualified to hold the opinions that you state.  However, we can simply agree to disagree on this topic.  There will be a host of other topics to discuss in other threads.  Perhaps we will agree on some of them.   

I am available through email or PM if you ever wish to discuss the topic further.  

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *He has never researched into my background, therefore any opinion he may have is based soley on personal biased and not any fact.  Unsupported statements are easily seen for what they are.   *




I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............


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## KennethKu (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Ken,
> 
> Again we are in disagreement about this issue.  I feel your accurate facts  are merely personal opinions that lack validity.
> ...



Every large organization has deadwood that has fallen through the crack.  In every organization, there would be someone who has gotten his rank under questionable circumstances. Kukkiwon is neither the most reputable TKD federation nor the exclusive representative authority of all legitimate TKD. It has more than its share of scandals.  However, to simply assume that all ranks in all organizations have been arbitrarily acquired, is about as accurate as assuming all cops are no different from thieves simply because some cops have been sent to prison for thief.


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## A.R.K. (May 29, 2003)

> I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............



The results of which were that, in your opinion, I MUST be a member of an Okinawin organization that _claims_  to govern a style indigenous to China.  An organization that you have refused to name or provide information about.  It is just as well however, I don't need wall candy from this organization to validate my training.  I have quite enough as it is.  Any more and I'll need to get a third cardboard box in the bottom of my guest room closet.  :rofl: 

Since I don't actively teach this style any longer it's a mute point anyway.  I will continue to concentrate my efforts on what I now teach  

Ken,



> Every large organization has deadwood that has fallen through the crack. In every organization, there would be someone who has gotten his rank under questionable circumstances. Kukkiwon is neither the most reputable TKD federation nor the exclusive representative authority of all legitimate TKD. It has more than its share of scandals.



Now your starting to understand what I've been saying for several months.  Rank is arbitrary...ability is not.



> However, to simply assume that all ranks in all organizations have been arbitrarily acquired



Whoops, you've slipped off the page here    I never stated ALL ranks are arbitrarily acquired, those are your words.  I stated that rank, in and of itself, is arbitrary.  There are no set standards even within the same discipline.

Case in point, you and I take TKD beginning at the same time.  You have a Monty Hall instructor the gives away whats behind curtain #1 for the right price.  In short, you train for a year and a half and pay the appropriate high fee and get promoted to 1st Dan.  He is at 4th Dan in the Kukkiwon and signs off so now your a 1st Dan with the Kukkiwon all nice and official.

I have a hardcore instructor that demands a high standard and insn't interested in frivolity.  It takes six hard years of sweat, blood and tears to finally obtain my 1st Dan.  My Instructor is also 4th Dan and signs off so now I have my 1st Dan in the Kukkiwon.

We're both 1st Dans, in fact you might be higher by the time I make first because of easy standards in your school.

Same style...but the rank is arbitrary because of differing standards.  Who is MORE legite in their Dan ranking with the Kukkiwon Ken, you or me in the above example?

Therein lies the whole problem of the whole issue.

:asian:


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## arnisador (May 29, 2003)

The rank issue is off-topic. Please take it elsewhere.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Ok, I tried to find a place to split this...couldnt really....

am going to rename the topic...


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## Bob Hubbard (May 29, 2003)

Friendly reminder, leave the personal issues on the side...

I think a good point was made.  Regardless of an equality in rank, or the source of a cert, everyones skills are different.  Any 2 1st degrees even within the same organization may in fact be at different levels due toi differences in the grading.

I know a high ranking Kenpoist who once mentioned that another high ranked kenpoist wouldnt even qualify for 1st degree in their school.  Note - both recieved their original black belts from Ed Parker himself.  

Another good issue is how difficult it is in verifying anything.  What good is it to call a group I'm not associated with?  In the example I gave above, I was referencing real-world issues in the Modern Arnis world.  With the original 'parent' organization splintered and spun off into multiple organizations, who do you call?  Theres 2 IMAFs, which one?  Even calling both may result in no information beyond "We dont have him listed".  


In regards to exposing frauds, if a person indicates they hold rank in an -acknowledged- certificate mill, mention it.  If a person mentions holding rank in the military, check it and if found to be fraudulent, post it.  If no info is found, ask for verification.  If a person claims lineage, and you can confirm or dispute it, post it. If a person is flashing a cert that they claim indicates a high rank, but when translated says "Eat at Midori's Sushi Bar" then please, post the translation...we need a laugh.

The key here is to post it -once-, not a billion times.  Post in the right place, and politely post a reference in the apropriate forum. Not beat it to death, not work yourself into a tizzy, and not piss off the nice moderators here.  We want the same thing as you do.  Quality information by quality people.  We can not arbitrarily boot someone without cause.  Being a fraud is not just cause.  Being a jerk is.   Ashida Kim is welcome to sign up and post...as long as he can follow our rules. Build your case in a positive way, let the info speak for itself, and let the frauds go ape-****.  We will see the reports and eventually find enough cause to show them the door.

Rather than post tons of 'buster' posts, and 'BS' posts, go over history and techniques.  Post seminar info, and results.  Biographies on the masters. People bemoan the lack of info in certain areas, yet they are the ones with the information.  We can't (as much as we might like to in a few cases) put folks on the rack.  Its up to you to turn this into a treasure trove of information, or a cesspool of filth.  Personally, I hope it'll be the treasure trove. 

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *    The results of which were that, in your opinion, I MUST be a member of an Okinawin organization *



Nope. Never said you MUST.just proved you "DIDN'T" belong to one connected to Okinawa.




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *    that claims  to govern a style indigenous to China. *



And those claims to a Chinese connection have yet to be corroborated





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *      An organization that you have refused to name or provide information about. *



Since you were so generous with your information I thought I would be equally generous.  




> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *    Any more and I'll need to get a third cardboard box in the bottom of my guest room closet.  :rofl: *


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## tshadowchaser (May 30, 2003)

When I first came to Martialtalk, about 90 percent of the posts where asking or the giveing of information. 5% where friendly jabs at each other and another 5% a joke of some kind.  We all got along  (for the most part) and enjoyed shareing information and learning about the other guy and his organisation.
  Today I see more post in the humor section and locker room than anywhere else. Nothing wrong with that the information being passed is where it belongs. These areas didn"t even exsist back when I started .
 As we have grown larger the influx of those of "questionable" rank has come into site. Ok as has been said by Kaith If you can prove or disprove someone do it in the appropreate area ONCE and then let it be.
 For those that feel they must continualy post and bait someone just because they disagree with a point of view "Grow up" 
 If a point of view was asked for accept what people say as their point of view. We all agree to disagree at times.  Each of us that posts sees things from our own point of view because of many factors including, but not limited to:
place of origin and present area we live in
our time in our art and our time in the arts
our age, education, and family status
what type of martial art we study  (verry hard tyo soft,external to internal)
How our instructors did things


Personaly I would like to see more informative posts on the history of various arts and hear stories of the people who made these arts what they are today


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## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

I agree.

I'd like to see more information and less attacks, and less "I gotta secret" games played.

I don't know what the solution is.  I've considered everything from extreme rules enforcement, to locking the board down in various ways.  Unfortunately, most of those radically change what my intent for this place is.


Do we have frauds both innocent and purposeful? Yes.
Can we completely police em out?  Nope.

Can we focus on the histories, techniques, etc?  Thats up to everyone.

:asian:


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## 7starmantis (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by tshadowchaser _
> *When I first came to Martialtalk, about 90 percent of the posts where asking or the giveing of information. 5% where friendly jabs at each other and another 5% a joke of some kind.  We all got along  (for the most part) and enjoyed shareing information and learning about the other guy and his organisation.
> Today I see more post in the humor section and locker room than anywhere else. Nothing wrong with that the information being passed is where it belongs. These areas didn"t even exsist back when I started.
> 
> Personaly I would like to see more informative posts on the history of various arts and hear stories of the people who made these arts what they are today *


I agree completely with this post. I haven't been posting much lately, well the last 4 months or so to be exact, partly because I quit my job as a network engin and don't have the opportunity to sit behind a computer 8 hours a day, but also partly because I have been less interested in posting the threads I'm reading. They seem to be less information and more speculation. I love discussing and learning, even debating here and there, but I also like it kept friendly. This is probably the most friendly of all the MA forums, but I have noticed a change in the direction of it. LEts set it back in the direction it was in.

7sm


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## A.R.K. (May 30, 2003)

Kaith,



> I'd like to see more information and less attacks,



So would I.  But it is difficult when people like Robert continually have to come in with unwarrented remarks.  Such as...



> I have "researched" your claims so has Martial Aritist...............



...no, he really hasn't researched my background.  But the comment is meant to color opinion without basis or substance.  I have publically offered to share all with him via email in another thread, his only response was to email me obsenities.  



> Nope. Never said you MUST.just proved you "DIDN'T" belong to one connected to Okinawa.



Robert has *proven*  that I don't belong to an organization....that I *never claimed*  to be a member of :shrug:   So what value does it hold to continually bring it up in thread after thread?  I don't even know if this _organization_  even exists.  The only response I get via email from Robert is more obsenities and insults  

So I agree with 7starmantis..



> I love discussing and learning, even debating here and there, but I also like it kept friendly. This is probably the most friendly of all the MA forums, but I have noticed a change in the direction of it. LEts set it back in the direction it was in.



It would be nice to see this.  But the pointless, unsubstantiated remarks need to cease in order for this to happen.  This is indeed an interesting thread with the direction it has taken.  It's an irritation to see it get sidetracked by a couple of people who really haven't contributed to the topic.

My humble opinion, sorry for the rant.

Peace
:asian:


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## A.R.K. (May 30, 2003)

Kaith,



> I think a good point was made. Regardless of an equality in rank, or the source of a cert, everyones skills are different. Any 2 1st degrees even within the same organization may in fact be at different levels due toi differences in the grading.



Exactly.  Lineage is fine in terms of the quality of instruction [maybe], Organizations are fine in terms of some type of enforcable standard [maybe] but it all boils down to what a person is actually capable of in a real world altercation.  Not in competition, actual life/death altercations.  

Paper is just paper with someones name on it and some colorful seals.  It's nice to show other folks of the same interest, perhaps even those outside the art.  But paper doesn't count for beans when the boogey man comes calling.  Then it all comes down to what you can actually do.  My humble opinion.

:asian:


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## RyuShiKan (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> ...no, he really hasn't researched my background.  But the comment is meant to color opinion without basis or substance.  I have publically offered to share all with him via email in another thread, his only response was to email me obsenities.  *



You claimed Shuri Ryu was a style in Okinawa:

I told you there were no Shuri Ryu dojo in Okinawa.

You have yet to prove there are.

You used the word Soke incorrectly:

I posted a definition of the word.

You posted what a swell guy Jack Stern was and how he is so well respected:

Someone posted proof that he was a LIAR, FAKE, and a FRAUD.





> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Robert has proven  that I don't belong to an organization....that I never claimed  to be a member of*



You claimed rank in an Okinawan style then when asked never coughed up which organization or who issued the rank.
Most likely because it was issued by a dan factory.


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## RyuShiKan (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *   I agree.
> 
> I'd like to see more information and less attacks, and less "I gotta secret" games played.*



I would like to see less frauds, fakes and liars.





> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Can we focus on the histories, techniques, etc?  Thats up to everyone.
> *



Its pretty hard to focus on certain histories when they are obviously made up.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 30, 2003)

:deadhorse

David, Robert - Enough.  Every point has been made repeatedly.  Move on to something else.

Next one to harp on this I'm booting.


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## D.Cobb (May 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *:deadhorse*



You've been just waiting for the chance to use this one, haven't you!

I love it!
:rofl: 

--Dave


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## Bob Hubbard (May 31, 2003)

Actually...they inspired me to add a new smilie to the board.

See, the constant bickering, and nitpicking, and asprin consuming did amount to some good after all.

:rofl:


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## KennethKu (May 31, 2003)

Please allow me to elaborate on one critical point about rank, Arnisador.  The information is of value to members.

ARK mentioned that one instructor may train his studently less vigorously when compared to another instructor.  And under such situation, equally ranked students from both instructors are of different capability.

That is hardly anything new. All legitimate organizations have long ago figured out the solution to such problem. That is why there are : standard curriculum, standard procedure to test and promote, central registry for ranks and titles, certification for instructors and other safeguard. All aim to eliminate the inconsistency in teaching, testing and promotion.  

When some one reports his/her rank, he/she reports the rank, registration number, *name of instructor/s , name of person who tested him/her*.  In that way, people can tell if he/she has a reputable instructor or a deadwood instructor.  In any large organization, there are some deadwood instructors inevitably fell through the safeguard. But members of the organizations tend to know who is reputable and who is questionable. In posting the name of your instructor and your tester, people know if you are properly certified.

This is common knowledge. I am surprised that there are people who are not aware of this. I am equally surprised there are people who do not know how to verify rank.


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## A.R.K. (May 31, 2003)

Well Ken, that all sure sounds real good.  Of course, none of it applies to the real world.

Since the Kukkiwon is a good example lets take a look there, shall we.  I know people in TKD that have trained for a couple of years and made BB.  I know people who are MUCH, _MUCH,_ *MUCH*  better pratitioners, train harder and go to more classes and it's taken 6 or more years to make BB because the instructor wasn't Monty Hall and wasn't interested in $$$ over quality.

And BOTH are registered with the Kukkiwon. 



> All legitimate organizations have long ago figured out the solution to such problem. That is why there are : standard curriculum, standard procedure to test and promote, central registry for ranks and titles, certification for instructors and other safeguard. All aim to eliminate the inconsistency in teaching, testing and promotion.



Lets see...the Kukkiwon is suppose to be legitimate isn't it?

Standard curriculum...uh no. Standard forms yes, the rest is up for grabs from clique to clique.  

Standard testing procedures...only for forms.  Time requirements vary dramatically.

Central registery...yep your right there.  But it is only a clearing house with perhaps standardized forms.  Nothing else is regulated.  Doens't look like their to interested in *eliminating the inconsistencies in teaching, testing and promotion.* 

This is common knowledge. I am surprised that there are people who are not aware of this.

And you can only verifiy rank if they are members of an organization that uses a registry.  Or you contact their school/instructor personally and are confident that the person you are actually talking to is who they claim to be.  Certificates the same way...unless you know what every organization/style/system/school certificate looks like. 

Do you?

:asian:


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## KennethKu (Jun 2, 2003)

Whether you accept it or not, that is the way the real world works. You can ask Yiliquan about how they maintain the authenticity of their art. You can ask ITF how they are achieving that same objective. They will tell you the same methodology I have posted.

Whether you accept it or not, in the TKD world, people who *earned* their ranks, are proud to list the names of their instructors and testers, as to facilitate any attempt to verify their claims of ranks. They provide their names, ranks, as well as registration numbers.  And in the real world, it is up to the person making the claims, to provide every necessary information to allow his/her claims to be independently verified.  Failure to do so, only arouse suspicions of the validity of the claim.  Whether you like it or not, that is the way things are.

Established organizations do not require you to resort to "....Or you contact their school/instructor personally and are confident that the person you are actually talking to is who they claim to be. Certificates the same way...unless you know what every organization/style/system/school certificate looks like....."

* All one has to do, is to post NAME, RANK, registration number of certificate, name of organization, name of instructor/s, name of tester. *  Let the truth be known. Sunshine is the best disinfectant.  Some one inside the organization would know about your instructor and what kind of students he/she produces. That would tell a lot about the person, more than any argumentative debate could ever produce.


When you keep repeating the lazy instructor example, you fail to realize (which some one of your position (claimed) SHOULD have known) that people have long resolved that problem.


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## Marginal (Jun 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *Well Ken, that all sure sounds real good.  Of course, none of it applies to the real world.
> 
> Since the Kukkiwon is a good example lets take a look there, shall we.  I know people in TKD that have trained for a couple of years and made BB.  I know people who are MUCH, MUCH, MUCH  better pratitioners, train harder and go to more classes and it's taken 6 or more years to make BB because the instructor wasn't Monty Hall and wasn't interested in $$$ over quality.
> ...



Not to mention that by your own words, either is also fully qualified to teach and/or start up their own style.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 3, 2003)

> Not to mention that by your own words, either is also fully qualified to teach and/or start up their own style.



 
When have I ever mentioned that a two year 1st Dan in TKD was eligible to begin his own system?


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## Marginal (Jun 3, 2003)

All those locked thread topics tend to bleed together. Could've been three years for Sokeship. (Not much of a difference all told.)


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## A.R.K. (Jun 3, 2003)

You've still lost me...I don't recall anyone talking about a three year sokeship.  

The only thing close that perhaps your thinking of is Dr. Kano of Judo fame doing so at the age of 22.


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## KennethKu (Jun 3, 2003)

Marginal was referring to your criterial about who qualifies to create a new art or style.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 3, 2003)

I don't recall stating my criteria, only what has been done in the past by other martial artists.

:asian:


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## KennethKu (Jun 3, 2003)

> _originally by ARK_
> Fringe,
> 
> I would venture a minimum age of 22 and at least 3 years in a discipline would qualify an individual to have enough information to begin a new system.......



from your post on the first page of the locked thread "Claims on the Internet".


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## Marginal (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *
> You've still lost me...I don't recall anyone talking about a three year sokeship.
> 
> The only thing close that perhaps your thinking of is Dr. Kano of Judo fame doing so at the age of 22. *



Technically, you claimed that three years was sufficient. You then cited Kano as justification for the comment once people got riled. There really wasn't much to misunderstand as it was written in that particular thread. Simple unqualified language/direct comments and all that. (As KennethKu's quote demonstrates.)


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## Zepp (Jun 3, 2003)

Anyone else feel this thread belongs in a different forum?

:deadhorse


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## A.R.K. (Jun 3, 2003)

I didn't claim that 3 years was sufficient, only that it would qualify based on what one/some have done in the past.  That is not my criteria, it is an observation of what has been done in the past.  

I think you've both read much more into the comment than what was intended.  The whole point on that topic was what would qualify someone to begin a new discipline, that was a minimal/exceptional example.  

My personal opinon varies dramatically from Dr. Kano's example.  But it is important as well to cite history as an example of what has been done...and what could be done under similar circumstances.

:asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Technically, you claimed that three years was sufficient. You then cited Kano as justification for the comment once people got riled. There really wasn't much to misunderstand as it was written in that particular thread. Simple unqualified language/direct comments and all that. (As KennethKu's quote demonstrates.) *





Technically? or Actually?


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## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

To my mind "I would venture" is speculative language, not a definitive statement.


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## Marginal (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> *Technically? or Actually?
> 
> *


 Technically. It's what he wrote. There really wasn't room to infer anything else (outside of mind reading). Even the additional comments didn't come across like the amendations offered here claim they were meant to sound.


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## KennethKu (Jun 4, 2003)

Success has a thousand fathers but failure is a bastard.

After every one pointed out how absurd the 3 yr time in training really is as "qualifying" some nuts to make up his own gig, the claim is now being disowned like a disease.  Big surprise there.

"Definitive" or not, "technically" or not, Marginal just reminded ARK of how his own words, now fly in the face of his latest post.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 4, 2003)

Oh Ken  

Take the post any way your little heart desires.  The fact of the matter is that Kano at the age of 22 developed Judo.  Most here would scoff at a 22 year old that founded his own system.  You would be at the forefront I would image.  Yet he did so and it is now enjoyed by people around the world.

My post was not the rule, it was the exception.  Trying to twist things around only shows that your a trouble maker.  Big suprise.


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## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

Please, keep the discussion polite and professional.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## A.R.K. (Jun 4, 2003)

:asian:


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## KennethKu (Jun 4, 2003)

If you owned up to your own words, I wouldn't have to dig them out.

"...My post was not the rule, it was the exception..." Nice of you to recognize that, after every one pointed out how absurd it was. Please don't ask me to quote what others' reponses. They are all in that "Claims on the Internet" thread.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 4, 2003)

Ken's still on the agenda :shrug: 



> And your missing the point entirely, there is no 'requirement' for founding something of value other than desire and focus. One does not have to have X amount of years or be of a certain age or belong to any particular group to contribute something of value. One must never be afraid to try something new if that is the desire regardless of others opinions to the contrary.





> If something has been done before...it can be done again.





> The point is to make the effort. To not make the effort is to never know the results. My 'system' is not new under the sun, and it may not stand the test of time. Then again, perhaps it will. At any rate it has by the grace of God kept me safe and allowed me to return safetly at night. It has allowed others to do the same. To me that is the most important factor.




Posted by Ken



> Please don't ask me to quote what others' reponses.



Actually Ken, please do at great length.  It bolsters my comments.  Many people thought it absurd for a 22 year old to develop a discipline.  Yet it has been done.  And since there are no rules against such a thing, it could happen again.

Is this my 'rule'?  Nope.  Just pointing out a slice of history.  No need to 'own up' Ken, I've been saying the same thing all along.  Not my concern if you take it the wrong way.  

O'well


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## RyuShiKan (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> * The fact of the matter is that Kano at the age of 22 developed Judo.  *



I think that should read "started to develop Judo" since he continued to refine it over the next 50 or 60 years. In fact it is still evolving.........I also seem to remember reading he challenged or was challenged by quite a few dojo as well.


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## A.R.K. (Jun 4, 2003)

Ryushikan,

Now that is a good point that I had not considered.  Bravo :asian:


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## Rich Parsons (Jun 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Marginal _
> *Technically. It's what he wrote. There really wasn't room to infer anything else (outside of mind reading). Even the additional comments didn't come across like the amendations offered here claim they were meant to sound. *




First, I am not trying to stand on one side or the other. I care not for this road or path.


Second, I do not understand, your post, so I am asking you to furhter clarify. As I cannot follow your last sentence.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Jun 13, 2003)

I think you guys have way to much time on your hands!


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## Kirk (Jun 13, 2003)

MAAAAAAAAJOR change in the number of posts lately.  And those
that are being posted are the "Senseless" "post everytime you look" etc threads.  The TKD'ers are busy posting, the FMAers are
busy fighting and that's it!


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 13, 2003)

Beginning of summer annual slump.

We've got a few 'skunkworks' projects going on that might kick things up a notch shortly.  

Something big is gonna hit in July.  (And I don't mean T3 at the boxoffice).


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## Seig (Jun 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Beginning of summer annual slump.
> 
> We've got a few 'skunkworks' projects going on that might kick things up a notch shortly.
> ...


That's right!  MT is sponsoring a _ *Boot to the Groin*_ Marathon, I am gathering additional sponsors now, so you can all just start lining up and assuming your horse stances.


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## moromoro (Jun 15, 2003)

> The fact of the matter is that Kano at the age of 22 developed Judo. Most here would scoff at a 22 year old that founded his own system.




but kano had already earned menkyo kaiden in  tenjin shinyo ryu by the time he had started JUDO.... no one would scoff at anybody with the right skill........


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