# WC/WT sparring



## Nabakatsu (Nov 23, 2009)

Found some new wc sparring full contact videos, if you read the comments it's clear most people think it's either crap wc/wt or that it's hardly even wc/wt... anyways, keep hearing things like, wc/wt falls apart under pressure ect ect, I'm curious to hear your thoughts and opinions of this. 






there are like 10 other wc vids from the same user. enjoy!


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## mook jong man (Nov 23, 2009)

I should really have stopped watching after seeing that there was no semblance of a stance.
There seems to be a lack of basic technique , I think it would serve them well to put the sparring gear away and work on their stance and other basics for a couple of years.

It seems to me that it is a perfect case of throwing people in at the deep end without them having the required theoretical knowledge or having developed their practical ability.

So indeed their structure will fall apart under pressure because they had no structure to begin with , in all honesty it looks like they were beginners who did a couple of lessons and were told " Here you go , put the gear on and do your best ".

There has to be logical progressions in the training before students are allowed to spar like that , like the Lat Sau drills you were talking about on the other thread.

Through the use of specialised exercises and drills and a lot of vigorous chi sau sparring the stance and the hand structures become embedded or if you like second nature .

Once the student becomes proficient , the exercise is tweaked so that he is put under more pressure ie more powerful strikes , more faster strikes or randomness.

This ramping up of the intensity is a process that is repeated many times , each time the student must show that he can maintain stance , keep the structure , demonstrate good reflex , correctness of technique etc.

Only then do you ramp it up again , indeed the skill in teaching is to get the student to push the envelope only slightly.
Too easy and the student gets bored and is not challenged , too hard and the student gets flustered , freaks out and coordination is lost.

In closing I think it does a disservice to the Wing Chun / Wing Tsun community for schools to put videos out like the ones shown.
Either show two high level practitioners or don't put anything out at all.


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## Nabakatsu (Nov 23, 2009)

well said sir! 
A shame more high level students didn't throw up sparring videos more often!


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## mook jong man (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah it would be good from an educational stand point , but you don't want to give too many of your trade secrets away either to all and sundry.
If your in a decent school you probably would have already had an opportunity to witness first hand your senior instructors sparring anyway.


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## mook jong man (Nov 23, 2009)

I just found this clip from my old school , it shows a bit of sparring from a first level grading.

The guy in the short sleeves is playing the part of the attacker and the other bloke is the Wing Chun man.

Now I grant you the guy is no shining example of Wing Chun technique and personally I believe he needed a lot more work before he was sent off to attempt the grading , but thats another story.

But nevertheless he does maintain a semblance of a stance and stays grounded most of the time , tries to dominate the centreline and uses aggressive forward pressure etc.


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## CRCAVirginia (Nov 24, 2009)

The stance work was not the problem.  This is what most WC will look like when sparring.  The taller guy had the advantage because of reach.  Without head movement, body shots and use of hooks, uppercuts, and clinching, and better circling footwork the straight punches were killing the smaller guy.  As long as there is no fear of someone shooting in for a takedown, a fighter can just charge in.


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 24, 2009)

In the fight with the short guy and the tall guy, from what I saw, the short guy was too busy bouncing around and not holding his WC stance and hand positions. Also, he didn&#8217;t protect his center, centerline or central line (mother line) very well. He also got away from his basic WC ideas (principles, theories, concepts) and did boxing. The tall guy just tried to run in on him and execute battle punch after battle punch. Neither one of them looked like they were interested in actually protecting themselves, rather they were content to trade blows with each other.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with most of the WC sparring you see on the net is everyone is too determined to just run in, straight blast, and get the first hit advantage, without regard for their safety. They believe you only have to battle punch (or chain punch, whatever you may call it) and they will control the fight. That is why most of the clips you see look like very sloppy boxing with no structure, stance, and positions to speak of. They are in a hurry with too much flailing or swinging of the arms (punching) and not enough structure to their hand positions to allow *intercepting*, zoning, parrying, redirection, and footwork. Everyone forgets the adage of what we call &#8216;mo tom sic&#8217; (no greedy style). Wing Chun is about self defense, initially you have to wait for your attacker and counter to get the upper hand (correct timing). Then, when you have control of the center (by possibly trapping with good position and timing), you overpower your opponent with punches, kicks, parries and the unending attacks.


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## mook jong man (Nov 24, 2009)

CRCAVirginia said:


> The stance work was not the problem. This is what most WC will look like when sparring. The taller guy had the advantage because of reach. Without head movement, body shots and use of hooks, uppercuts, and clinching, and better circling footwork the straight punches were killing the smaller guy. As long as there is no fear of someone shooting in for a takedown, a fighter can just charge in.


 
I have to strongly disagree , I don't know what lineage of Wing Chun you study , but in my lineage stance is paramount and bouncing around and having a high center of gravity does not conform to Wing Chun principles.

There is also a raft of other basic errors that were committed and these have been outlined already by Zepedawingchun.

If the practitioners are trained properly and have the basics drilled into them  it does not degenerate into a form of sloppy kickboxing , it becomes more like one kick to bridge the gap and then a chi sau sparring battle with low kicks until the one with better chi sau manages to break through the defences.

Without a stance the Wing Chun man cannot hope to manipulate the balance of a larger opponent because the power comes from the stance and is transmitted out through the arms to attack the opponents center of balance and thus keeping him always on the backfoot and unable to mount a counter attack.

There are a few more things that must be adhered to but that is the general crux of the matter.

I will refer again to the video I posted before , keep in mind one guy is playing the attacker and the other is the Wing Chun guy.
He needs some reflex work but he does manage to keep his stance and stay sunk down most of the time.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 24, 2009)

Nabakatsu said:


> Found some new wc sparring full contact videos, if you read the comments it's clear most people think it's either crap wc/wt or that it's hardly even wc/wt... anyways, keep hearing things like, wc/wt falls apart under pressure ect ect, I'm curious to hear your thoughts and opinions of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

To be honest, good or crappy or anything in between is to me not so much an issue as the Wing Chun pract's in the clips are atleast putting themselves on the line as opposed to a lot of side line practitioners that comment on these vid's over youtube. (Not talking about you guys lol)

But yea, I can agree with what's mentioned before about training proper basics before attempting to get in the ring & playing rock em sock em robots. 

But I still feel theres not near enough pressure testing in the Wing Chun community at large, again not saying everyone obviously, as there are a lot of tremendously good Instructors & practitioners but unfortunately they don't represent the mass as they are the minority in this case.

So I would say kudo's to the Wing Chun guys that put it up & I hope to see more refinement in the future, pretty much the goal of all of us definitely including myself. 

But Nab, Mook, Zepeda all you guys brought up some good points so thanks for sharing your knowledge & insights.


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## mook jong man (Nov 25, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> To be honest, good or crappy or anything in between is to me not so much an issue as the Wing Chun pract's in the clips are atleast putting themselves on the line as opposed to a lot of side line practitioners that comment on these vid's over youtube. (Not talking about you guys lol)
> 
> But yea, I can agree with what's mentioned before about training proper basics before attempting to get in the ring & playing rock em sock em robots.
> 
> ...


 
That is true , they do at least deserve praise for at least putting the gear on and having a go . 

For as most of us would know even with the head gear on it still shakes the old brain box around a bit and the headaches afterwards are no fun.

Also considering that some schools I have heard of don't even allow any contact at all , not even to the body in chi sau sparring , that is if they even do any sparring.

I just think that Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time , it generally starts off as a clash of legs as both people kick for the centreline and then goes into chi sau sparring with low kicks as the gap is closed.

Your better off just practicing chi sau sparring with head gear on I think , thats what we do sometimes.

Or have one person play the generic streetfighter , boxer , martial artist and the other person plays the Wing Chun guy , I believe this is a better use of your training time rather than Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring and you learn to counter attacks from all angles instead of just waiting for it to come down the centreline

I mean realistically speaking what are the chances you are going to be attacked by another Wing Chun guy in the street .

They are not likely to step in with a pak sau and centreline punch , chances are its going to be a tackle , haymaker , head butt or something of that nature.


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 25, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> . . . . .I just think that Wing Chun versus Wing Chun sparring is a waste of time , it generally starts off as a clash of legs as both people kick for the centreline and then goes into chi sau sparring with low kicks as the gap is closed..


 
I agree with this whole heartedly. I found the same results when students sparred each other.



mook jong man said:


> . . . . .Or have one person play the generic streetfighter , boxer , martial artist and the other person plays the Wing Chun guy , I believe this is a better use of your training time rather than Wing Chun vs Wing Chun sparring and you learn to counter attacks from all angles instead of just waiting for it to come down the centreline.


 
That is how I make my students spar each other. They put on head gear and sparring gloves then one student is permitted to use WC principles, theories, concepts, hand positions and footwork. While the other student uses boxing, kick boxing, wrestling, grappling, etc. but no WC. Since most of my students have prior martial arts training or exposure, it works out pretty good. From that, I'm able to see where they are lacking in skills, ideas, hand positions, or whatever so I can work to improve their WC. 



mook jong man said:


> . . . . .I mean realistically speaking what are the chances you are going to be attacked by another Wing Chun guy in the street .
> 
> They are not likely to step in with a pak sau and centreline punch , chances are its going to be a tackle , haymaker , head butt or something of that nature.


 
Mook jong man is right in the fact that we (as WC practitioners) are not likely to have an altercation with another WC practitioner (unless we visit another WC school). So why train only for WC fighters and not the general public or other martial arts systems? Isn't that what we should be doing anyway, expect the best or something different until our opponent proves they are not so skilled? That's what I was told from day one of my WC training.


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 25, 2009)

Wing chun 'sparring' has always been difficult, because the nature of sparring is to test moves that you train regularly in a friendly manner

Chopping someone in the throat, palm striking someones face etc is not really considered friendly. Sure you can control the move but then you have kind of negated the point of the spar!

In Kamon we use feeding techniques which is basically a person throwing in any random attack and getting used to dealing with it
Over time, we add pressure to it (ie opponent can strike back, clinch, kick, etc)

I love being put under pressure. It is an important part of any training. Yet a lot of people see static drills in wing chun and assume that no technique is ever put under any real pressure. Depending on your federation, you may have already performed chi sao against a more aggressive opponent. Whilst I dont like comparing chi sao to sparring, your techniques are being put under pressure because your opponent can do anything

Putting headguards on and 14oz gloves on to train someones tan sao is never going to work 

I do get tired of certain forums where people moan that wing chun doesnt work. Wing chun is useful. Some people will never be good boxers. They have different body structures or movement which would make boxing etc awkward
I have a student who weighs around 8 stone and is just frail. He has tried bulking up but he just cant. As a boxer he would struggle. Doing wing chun he can deliver powerful strikes and defend well using structure


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## profesormental (Nov 25, 2009)

Greetings.

Wing Chun drills are supposed to be used when in close to break people with strikes, manipulations and then strike some more, or put them down.

That is why you close the distance, then strike where it is hard to generate power without Wing Chun training.

That is the general theory.

Yet we have to train against violent "street" attacks if we want to be successful at surviving violent street attacks. If we want to survive in a ring against someone that is going to use sports attacks, then we must train against the sports attacks.

Chi Sao is a great platform to practice the manipulations, strikes, controls, points of reference, etc. that we can use to survive such assaults and counter effectively. it can also train spontaneous attacks when a point of reference is reached, so a destructive sequence can begin.

It is not enough for combat. Realistic drilling using Chi sao as part of a spontaneous practice platform is another thing.

Starting from prearranged attacks with progressive and increasing pressure and realism, you can get used to using the skills that Wing Chun teaches. As with everything, it may be cumbersome at first, yet it will become easier, specially if your training to use correct structure and optimal anatomical movements for your martial applications.

Add to that understanding of the reactions of the body and you can practice Control Manipulations so that the attacker has no choice but to be controlled by you once the action starts. Again, this comes with drills that increase pressure and intent with experience and time. Then scenarios can be built so that a whole self defense situation can be simulated.

Sparring for sport is not the same as sparring for self defense.

Hope that helps.

Juan Mercado- Robles


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 25, 2009)

Exactly what I was afraid of...exa. my friend who trains in the Wah Lum style of Kung Fu...I was just telling him"if you can't fight utilizing the techniques that you have learned..what is the point?" agreed,most fights I have personally witnessed are sloppy fisticuffs,some are tactful fighters..shooting and heading so.for the ground. I suppose that there are some rare and exceptional individuals that adhere to the strictest standards and are not afraid to test the most basic of principals of Wing Tsun.....I am one of those people.while not the most advanced person,I can make the best use of what I have been taught....even in the worst street fight...and I still can manage to beat the crap out of my opponent,wrestler, shoot fighter,boxer....rules and regs. tend to hinder movement,but all in all where is your gwat? your gum? your collapsing bong followed by whisk or sun? where is your footwork? it works for me every time,I saw none of this during this sparring session.no pissing contest just an observation.Wing Tsun was engineered to first take care of the "Wing T opponent" then all else was supposed to be "superficial" at best.Trust what you have been taught,it works.Two cents...


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## Tensei85 (Nov 25, 2009)

To me I feel there is to much emphasis placed on what looks like Wing Chun for instance I can utilize a tan da, pak da, gan sau, chum sau, biu sau the list goes on forever to counter such & such. It's more important to understand the concepts & the Wing Chun body mechanics not so much using the trademark techniques to beat the opponent. (Not saying techniques aren't viable obviously, but too much emphasis would be placed on you have to do it this way or that way to look like Wing Chun)

Instead as mentioned before utilize the centerline concept, immovable elbow, mo ying gerk, straight line, hard & soft energies whatever. These are what is important in expressing Wing Chun whereas in most Wing Chun circles we can't even agree on the proper way to perform a "tan sau" Ip Man does it this way, Yuen Kay San does it that way, Pan Nam does it differently, even Pao Fa Lien has a different expression. 

So I feel adhering to the concepts & principles of Wing Chun is a must & is what's truly important not so much this technique should be this way, or this footwork should be that way. (But either way when footwork is absent there is a problem lol)

Just wanted to throw that out there, not disagreeing with anyone.


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## chinaboxer (Nov 25, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> To me I feel there is to much emphasis placed on what looks like Wing Chun for instance I can utilize a tan da, pak da, gan sau, chum sau, biu sau the list goes on forever to counter such & such. It's more important to understand the concepts & the Wing Chun body mechanics not so much using the trademark techniques to beat the opponent. (Not saying techniques aren't viable obviously, but too much emphasis would be placed on you have to do it this way or that way to look like Wing Chun)
> 
> Instead as mentioned before utilize the centerline concept, immovable elbow, mo ying gerk, straight line, hard & soft energies whatever. These are what is important in expressing Wing Chun whereas in most Wing Chun circles we can't even agree on the proper way to perform a "tan sau" Ip Man does it this way, Yuen Kay San does it that way, Pan Nam does it differently, even Pao Fa Lien has a different expression.
> 
> ...


i agree 100%...that's why i always tell my students to focus on "movement" (concepts & principles) and not "technique" (what it should supposedly look like)


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## qwksilver61 (Nov 26, 2009)

OK. so we all agree....at least make use of (stick to) your Wing Tsun/Tzun/Chun principle.Of course nothing is orchestrated,fights are messy,you can still *give way,stick to and follow*,The core concepts and principles do work. Thank you everyone,I mean that..now we are talking,and learning. Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving,God Bless!


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 26, 2009)

Just as an end note.... I think at the end of the day you are going to use anything ina streetfight if it helps you survive. I don't mind a chunner doing tan sao and then throwing a right hook if its going to work. 

It might not strictly be wing chun, but not doing it because it isnt strictly chun is silly

Chun does not have the answer to everything. It isnt an ultiomate art. It is a good art that does work in street situations. Yet chunners should not be afraid to use other skills as well

The best example of this is if you get a big guy attacking you and your punches arent powerful enough to stop them. Sure you might say 'I wish Id trained my punches harder etc', but instead of whinging, just slip into a choke and you will stop your opponent! (And no, I didnt steal that from Rocky 3). Sometimes using other techniques is beneficial. It doesnt mean your art is weak, just that you will be a tougher opponent if you master wing chun PLUS another art


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## Tensei85 (Nov 26, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> That is true , they do at least deserve praise for at least putting the gear on and having a go .
> 
> For as most of us would know even with the head gear on it still shakes the old brain box around a bit and the headaches afterwards are no fun.
> 
> ...


 
Ya, I definitely agree with your post. However I would like to say its good to have a guy play the generic streetfighter, kickboxer whatever... but its not the same if they don't have the intense training & refinement of body mechanics that comes with serious training of boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, bjj or whatever they are using in the session. 

It may give you an idea of what a boxer or what not may look like in a fight but in the end it would be like me trying to portray a Chu ga tong long pract or hwarang do guy or whatever when I don't have any experience in those said systems. 

But if you have guys that have that experience than by all means the training is invaluable & of the utmost importance. 

Haha, to correct my post before it comes out not the way I planned...
I'm not saying your guys don't have that experience as in the vid I thought they did a great job & a lot was learned in the session as can be imagined.

"But I'm stating the above post as to caution people that think they can use there W.C. sparring skills against fighters that train the arts that they assimilate in sparring sessions without having any real experience in those said arts themselves."

Atleast that's my view, again I'm not countering your's or anyone else's views on this topic just addressing a concern of mine. 

Thanks again for another insightful post.


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## mook jong man (Nov 26, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Ya, I definitely agree with your post. However I would like to say its good to have a guy play the generic streetfighter, kickboxer whatever... but its not the same if they don't have the intense training & refinement of body mechanics that comes with serious training of boxing, kickboxing, muay thai, bjj or whatever they are using in the session.
> 
> It may give you an idea of what a boxer or what not may look like in a fight but in the end it would be like me trying to portray a Chu ga tong long pract or hwarang do guy or whatever when I don't have any experience in those said systems.
> 
> ...


 
No worries mate , you definitely are making a good point.
It doesn't matter how much I pretend to be like Mike Tyson I'm never going to be able to throw a punch like him ( though I still could bite your ear off in the clinch lol . )

Its just that at our academy a lot of people seem to have to come from some other style , they got fed up with what they were doing and decided to give Wing Chun a try , so we were pretty lucky in that regard.
Could also be that over here in Australia we are not allowed to carry weapons so martial arts are quite popular.

I remember one of my senior instructors was a south pacific TKD champion , he could trap your hands in chi sau and drop an axe kick on your shoulder which I always thought was a nice party trick.

But at the end of the day you have to do the best with the people you've got , and every other martial art style would face the same problem too.

They all would tend to train in a little bit of a bubble unless they have a few people that have done other stuff before.

Also I might point out that its usually not the trained fighters you have to worry about on the street , they are usually too exhausted from their training sessions and are safely tucked up in bed.

Its the loud mouth jerk off wannabees , full of the drink , walking around in packs that think it might be amusing to hassle you and your missus if you have the misfortune of encountering them on a night out .

They are the ones you have to watch out for in my opinion.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 26, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> No worries mate , you definitely are making a good point.
> It doesn't matter how much I pretend to be like Mike Tyson I'm never going to be able to throw a punch like him ( though I still could bite your ear off in the clinch lol . )
> 
> Its just that at our academy a lot of people seem to have to come from some other style , they got fed up with what they were doing and decided to give Wing Chun a try , so we were pretty lucky in that regard.
> ...


 
I agree, makes a lot of sense. Personally I was also one of the guys that got fed up with some of the other systems I trained in for years before I started Wing Chun so I can understand your point & the feelings of your classmates/students. 

Personally I think it depends on what your training for, definitely loud mouth street punks or drunks at a bar are always a paramount scenario to train realistically for. More of the W.C. verses Streetfighter approach like you mentioned. Makes sense.

But then there are those that may be training for more of a sports competition atmosphere & for those I would recommend mixing up the game play and rounding out there options with the training provided by top notch or even decent competent Martial Artist from more of a MMA type of approach. Though I don't feel the actual MMA training device is 100% needed as CMA contains the 4 ranges Tek(kicking), Da(striking), Suai(throwing), Na(locking) however as with anything there are always specialists in those fields. Like BJJ for grappling, Kickboxing for kicking, Muay Thai for elbows, knees & kicking methods... (And the fact that MMA is not a style anyways) 

A CMA approach could be Shuai Jiao for Throws, Combat San Da is awesome training!
Northern Shaolin systems like Eagle Claw, Tong Long or a lot of others have a lot of great kicking methods, of course Wing Chun is excellent with short distance striking ranges & low kicks, & a lot of systems have outstanding Qin Na training devices. 

So with that in mind I feel Wing Chun training as a whole can benefit from these devices found in most CMA styles. However I have seen these in Wing Chun systems like Chi Sim, I believe Pao Fa Lien, Hung Fa Yi & Hek Ki Boen also contain the joint locking & throwing platforms. So that brings another question into acccount at what time frame were these left out, not included, or not there to begin with in the Ip Man system & a lot of other Wing Chun systems? 

It seems its one area that is lacking in the Wing Chun circles & the reason why a lot of pract's have been training Kickboxing & BJJ, etc... to round out there game. (Not to downplay those systems like BJJ, MT, KB, etc... as they really truly are specialists in there field of expertise)

Haha, I know what I just posted doesn't really have anything to do with what you've posted or what this thread is about. (Sorry I run off on tangents)
But it makes for constructive conversation...


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## Nabakatsu (Nov 27, 2009)

In any thread I start, ( as if it matters  ) I don't care what you have to say as long as it's not offending anybody, the information is good and appreciated, thanks a lot everyone, lot's of good contributions!


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 27, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> Just as an end note.... I think at the end of the day you are going to use anything ina streetfight if it helps you survive. I don't mind a chunner doing tan sao and then throwing a right hook if its going to work.
> 
> It might not strictly be wing chun, but not doing it because it isnt strictly chun is silly
> 
> ...


 
You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does.  In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee.  Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook.  Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu.  Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms.  You just have to find them.  The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.


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## Poor Uke (Nov 27, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does. In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee. Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook. Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu. Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms. You just have to find them. The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.


 
Oh FFS!

Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?

It just such a backward approach IMO. I am all for creativity but seriously the amount of times I have heard this you just wouldnt believe, then to be treated to a just aweful demonstration of what somebody has "found" in Biu Gee.

Yes there are joint locking techs that can be found in Wing Chun but c'mon it is nowhere as sophiticated as it is in arts that activily train them and are known for training them.

In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> Oh FFS!
> 
> Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?
> 
> ...


 
I think you are taking Zepedawingchun far too literally , he says using the concepts not exactly the same techniques.

For example in chi sau I can either decide to pierce straight through with my tan sau and strike your neck or I can decide to go straight past your neck , parry your other arm across and put you in a head /arm strangle , sweep your leg and take the fight to the ground. I'm using exactly the same tool , just for different purposes.

 Other arts specialise in the grappling range and are better at it that is true , but where Wing Chun can add value to those other arts is teach you how to efficiently penetrate through the defences and get into grappling range .

We already do what could be considered a vertical grappling drill in chi sau.
You still have to have an outside knowledge of chokes and strangles , but the tools are already there in Tan , Bong and Fook to enable you to enter into grappling range efficiently.

Now onto joint locks , I'm not a big fan .
What usually happens is that you are immobilising both your hands to attack their one hand and usually results in you being punched in the face or kicked.

Don't get me wrong they do have their place but in Wing Chun its usually as a reaction to you being grabbed in the first place , we don't proactively initiate an attack by joint locking .

Wing Chun is primarily a boxing art , it makes no sense to have both your main guns out of commission while they are trying to effect a joint lock , and lets face it can get quite messy if the person is very strong and determined to resist the particular lock. 

But having said all that , sometimes in vigorous chi sau sparring they do happen , but they have to be done in such away that it is spontaneous .

They have to be done so that the partners bodily structure is compromised ie bent over and with his main striking weapons orientated away from you . 

Don't try going for that fiddly small joint manipulation while he is square on to you or you will get punched in the face with the free hand , which coincidentally is exactly what I did to a cheeky ju jitsu guy that tried to break my fingers a long time ago.

It is not really surprising to me that in an art that was supposedly founded by a woman that there is an absence of joint locking.

Yes leverage is a big part of skill in joint locking but there is also an element of strength involved , and if your a very small slight person then attempting to joint lock a larger stronger person hell bent on resisting you can be a very risky prospect indeed.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 27, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> Oh FFS!
> 
> Why try and invent the wheel when everybody else is riding motorbikes?
> 
> ...


 
Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive. 

I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.


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## mook jong man (Nov 27, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive.
> 
> I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.


 
Thats a very good point , we can all be guilty sometimes of using our own experiences as a frame of reference.

We can only really talk based on our own particular lineage and experience , because there are so many different lineages out there that it would probably take several lifetimes to be well versed in all of them in order to say what techniques are contained within the particular system.

It would probably be better to say in our lineage we don't have ........... or in our lineage we do ......... this way than try to encompass all the various different clans.


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## Tensei85 (Nov 28, 2009)

mook jong man said:


> Thats a very good point , we can all be guilty sometimes of using our own experiences as a frame of reference.
> 
> We can only really talk based on our own particular lineage and experience , because there are so many different lineages out there that it would probably take several lifetimes to be well versed in all of them in order to say what techniques are contained within the particular system.
> 
> It would probably be better to say in our lineage we don't have ........... or in our lineage we do ......... this way than try to encompass all the various different clans.


 
Definitely, I can agree with that 100% In fact in reference towards your post I have also been guilty of saying well Wing Chun is like this or Wing Chun does this but then I end up encountering a system that there approach is a lot different. Even though the principles stay the same some times the individual expression or concepts may differ bit by bit. 

Nice insight!


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## zepedawingchun (Nov 29, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> In another thread here somebody asks whats wrong with chunners. Well this is a classic example!


 
Also, most of the time, their tea cup is too full to allow more tea to be poured.  Classic example of limited thinking and not knowing or understanding their system, its concepts, principles, theories, and forms.


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## graychuan (Nov 30, 2009)

Wing Chun Class Sparring   is required by all of us in the Woo Fai Ching System.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 1, 2009)

zepedawingchun said:


> You make it sound like Wing Chun doesn't utilize a hook, it does. In most of the family lines, it can be found in the 3rd part of Biu Jee. Some lines use a phoenix eye strike, some a hook. Uppercuts are also trained in some of the WC family lines, usually found in Chum Kiu. Also, the concepts for grappling and joint locks are there in the forms. You just have to find them. The system is more complete than most know, you just have to search for what you're looking for and be creative.


 
Wing chun for the most part does not utilize a hook. People often mistake the movements shown in bil jee for 'uppercuts and hooks. They are not. A boxers hook utilizes momentum and muscle power whereas the 'hook' in bil jee is a tighter movement and relies solely on the turn of the body. 
They are completely seperate moves

Chunners get really frustrated on this point because they think other arts have moves they do not. This is silly

A boxers hook is part of their system and works in certain situations. It really is only useful to people who have the muscle and power to back it up. Usually in wing chun this is not the case (ie if a thin little bloke tried to throw a right hook it would not have the same effect as if he used a fut sao etc)

That is why I encourage people to cross train. In order to do certain arts you need to release certain muscles or train attacks accordingly. If you dont train taekwondo or karate and the try and do a high kick you will probably fail. Even though there is a high kick in the forms (Ding gerk, tai gerk etc)


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## Poor Uke (Dec 1, 2009)

Tensei85 said:


> Actually have you had any experience in Chi Sim Weng Chun or Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun? Which have a set of qin na sequences that as you say they "actively train them." You might want to rephrase certain wordings or perform more thorough research in order not to make the assumption that your reference on Wing Chun is all inclusive.
> 
> I'm not attacking your perspective on Wing Chun as I'm sure you have a decent level of understanding but all I'm saying is don't make a ruling until you have seen all the facts. And if you already have done that then you have my sincerest apologies on my post above.


 
Hi Tensei I accept your point and you are right I havent trained all sub groups of Wing Chun. 

My own experience is of Yip Man lineage full time for 7 years, minimum 2 hours a day (yes I'm that obsessive). I have had the opportunity of training with a number of people from the various Yip Man splinter groups who all claim they have grappling and quin na etc.. I have yet to experience anything approaching judo/JJJ/Bjj/Silat/Arnis/Sambo when it comes to control, manipulation of joints and grappling.

WC in my experience (as pointed out by somebody else) is great to get into grappling range but it aint grappling.

Claiming things are "in the forms" is a classic line. Usually used to justify any inadequacies in WC, in my opinion that is.


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> WC in my experience (as pointed out by somebody else) is great to get into grappling range but it aint grappling.
> 
> *Claiming things are "in the forms" is a classic line.* Usually used to justify any inadequacies in WC, in my opinion that is.


 
Definitely a _classic_ line... and not just mouthed by WC people, but by the more closed minded adherents of many traditional martial arts. Wing Chun is a great art and there is more to it than meets the eye. But you are right, it ain't grappling. 

BTW, my only excuse for not training grappling (yet) is that I my cup is full with what I've got. But eventually, I plan to get there!


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## CRCAVirginia (Dec 1, 2009)

It depends how much time you spend training your ground game.  My sifu utilizes WC on the ground quite well.  Now before you say "Yeah against no experienced WC students"  Let me say he trains with Gene Lebell and his students and he does quite well when they allow striking.  I personally train BJJ, BJJ becomes different when you begin to allow for strikes, it becomes more of MMA style of ground fighting where you don't see many people trying to pass the guard and not as many submissions from the guard.  This is where WC techniques on the ground can work.  

CRCA Wing Chun has ground fighting drills, Chi Sau on the ground, lop Sau, basic drills.  Some WC purists won't like it, but Chi Sau on the ground adds a new dimension to the drill.  I like to use it for a heavier pressure that I have to than deal with.  (me on ground)  I can use Chi Sau to set up submissions from the guard postion.  

In case you want to try it here is how we set it up, one person in guard,(back on the ground) just like Jiu Jitsu.  Chi Sau like you normally would.  

When you add WC to the ground it opens up new training ideas.


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## CRCAVirginia (Dec 1, 2009)

Kamon Guy, First I respect and appreciate your posts and your style of WC.

Our upper cut is in Chum Kiu.  We have a shovel hook as well.  You are right they are not exactly as Western Boxing.  But I have to disagree on the part about being  big and strong to pull off, I learned a Western Boxing Hook from the lead hand and it does not take much muscle to pull off.  It's a pivot on the front foot and a pulling action with the body and the fist makes like you are holding a pint in your hand.  By the way the pivot is the same pivot we use when we open our Yee Jee Keem Yeung Ma!  The hand motion is the same that we use coming back to Lan Sau from what we call Fun Sau the double throat chopping motion in Siu Leem Tau.  

This is exactly how some WC techniques are born from other WC movements.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 2, 2009)

CRCAVirginia said:


> Kamon Guy, First I respect and appreciate your posts and your style of WC.
> 
> Our upper cut is in Chum Kiu. We have a shovel hook as well. You are right they are not exactly as Western Boxing. But I have to disagree on the part about being big and strong to pull off, I learned a Western Boxing Hook from the lead hand and it does not take much muscle to pull off. It's a pivot on the front foot and a pulling action with the body and the fist makes like you are holding a pint in your hand. By the way the pivot is the same pivot we use when we open our Yee Jee Keem Yeung Ma! The hand motion is the same that we use coming back to Lan Sau from what we call Fun Sau the double throat chopping motion in Siu Leem Tau.
> 
> This is exactly how some WC techniques are born from other WC movements.


 
I know the hit you are taking about (having trained extensively in boxing and Muay Thai), but it is very different from wing chun movements
You pretty much always have to pivot when doing a hook. In wing chun the 'hook' is like a reverse lan sau and works no matter your size. trust me when I say that a scrawny guy doing a hook will not take out a much larger opponent

For example think of the recent fight with the 7foot Russian guy. How many hooks and punches did the smaller fighter have to throw before anything happened? Answer - a lot. 

I would point out that the 'uppercut' in chum kil is not an uppercut. It is used to control teh arm. Many people look at the movement and assume that it is an uppercut. Have a look on youtube and watch the movement carefully - you will see that the force is directed forwards rather than upwards. Some people use it as an arm break, but more practically it is for controlling your opponent

The only striking uppercuts in wing chun occur in bil gee

It also sounds like you attempt to use 'double chopping hands' or fun sao as a practical application. This is a mistake

The reason two fut saos are done in sil nim tao is that it is more efficient to do it at the same time rather than slow down the form by doing a fut sao one side and then another one straight after. You are merely working the stretch of the fut sao in that movement - dont take sil nim tao too literally. The form is there to help create shapes and structures in a memorable way  

I am not trying to disresepct your art, your teacher or what you have learnt, but it is frustrating when people go off thinking that two fut saos will beat opponents either side of you etc, and then get into trouble because of it

CRCAVirginia - you can absolutely utilize wing chun on the ground but as an add on. If you go into a fight using only wing chun when it goes to the floor you will struggle. A lot. Wing chun is all about posture and stance. It utilizes the body as one. On the ground, this isnt possible. Centre line goes out the window. You can use sticking hands to a degree. And you can use some excellent strikes from wing chun. It is like asking a capoera guy to fight someone in a phone box lol
Use what works!


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2009)

Kamon Guy said:


> I would point out that the 'uppercut' in chum kil is not an uppercut. It is used to control teh arm. Many people look at the movement and assume that it is an uppercut. Have a look on youtube and watch the movement carefully - you will see that the force is directed forwards rather than upwards...
> 
> The only striking uppercuts in wing chun occur in bil gee


 
Likewise Kamon, I would like to point out that different branches of WC (even within the Yip Man lineage) do the forms differently. As I look around at how some of the different WC/WT/VT masters do the forms. I try to reserve judgement until I see the application they intend for the movement. And visa versa. If the movement and the application make good sense I have no problem. 

Now in the system I practice, there _is_ an uppercut in Chum Kiu, and if you watch how the movement is executed, it is clear that this is the primary application. On the other hand, we do not have an uppercut in Biu Tze as you apparently do. We do however have an open-handed upward strike to the throat... but it is an altogether different kind of strike. 

My point is that sometimes we should cut people some slack before we assume that they are wrong. My old Chinese sifu was quick to call those who disagreed with him  "stupid" and worse names. Since I've moved on, I've found that some of these other ways of doing WC may make very good sense if you consider their context. Like you said, "Use what works".


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## CRCAVirginia (Dec 2, 2009)

First, I never stated to use two throat chopping hands in unison. I was pointing out that the movement coming back COULD be used as a hooking motion.  There are times when I will use that motion with an open palm to the side of the head, why not a fist?  And yes I take motions from the forms, combine them and make a new technique.  I think Siu Leem Tau is Wing Chun, in Little Idea Form.  The form is teaching you WC if you listen.  Everything in the form means something, from the opening stance to the closing of the stance, when we bring the left foot to the right, where the little idea of footwork is born.

Look at You Tube?  No thanks.  Our Chau Kuen or upper cut is one of the eight punches of WC.  Also called Juen Kuen (drilling punch) and Joong Loh Kuen (mid level punch) I will use it mainly as a leak after I Bong straight up to his chin. Where I hold his punch in a Lon Sau postion to leak under.  If I used lop sau instead of Lon Sau, I would pull his arm on top of mine, stopping my own attacking uppercut.

No Centerline on the ground?  The only time there is no Centerline is when our chests are touching.  As long as I can place my blocking triangle between the tip of your attacking triangle and the centerline I can stop your attack, standing or on the ground.  

As I stated before my Sifu can and does use WC effectively on the ground WHEN striking is involved.  We train for a street encounter not a tournament where we are likely not facing a BJJ black belt.


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## Tensei85 (Dec 2, 2009)

Poor Uke said:


> Hi Tensei I accept your point and you are right I havent trained all sub groups of Wing Chun.
> 
> My own experience is of Yip Man lineage full time for 7 years, minimum 2 hours a day (yes I'm that obsessive). I have had the opportunity of training with a number of people from the various Yip Man splinter groups who all claim they have grappling and quin na etc.. I have yet to experience anything approaching judo/JJJ/Bjj/Silat/Arnis/Sambo when it comes to control, manipulation of joints and grappling.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, I understand what your saying & where your coming from. Thanks for adding to the discussion. Haha, hopefully my above comments didn't sound like I was taking a stab at your legitimacy or your training regimen as that wasn't my intention, just to clarify.


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## Poor Uke (Dec 3, 2009)

No worries I think you made a valid point.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 3, 2009)

geezer said:


> Likewise Kamon, I would like to point out that different branches of WC (even within the Yip Man lineage) do the forms differently. As I look around at how some of the different WC/WT/VT masters do the forms. I try to reserve judgement until I see the application they intend for the movement. And visa versa. If the movement and the application make good sense I have no problem.
> 
> Now in the system I practice, there _is_ an uppercut in Chum Kiu, and if you watch how the movement is executed, it is clear that this is the primary application. On the other hand, we do not have an uppercut in Biu Tze as you apparently do. We do however have an open-handed upward strike to the throat... but it is an altogether different kind of strike.
> 
> My point is that sometimes we should cut people some slack before we assume that they are wrong. My old Chinese sifu was quick to call those who disagreed with him "stupid" and worse names. Since I've moved on, I've found that some of these other ways of doing WC may make very good sense if you consider their context. Like you said, "Use what works".


I understand what you are saying a
nd it was not my intention to come across as Kamon is right and everyone else is wrong  in fact there are some things that we do which has moved away from traditional movements

My point was that I know the different styles out there and I know the uppercut he is referring to and where it takes place. In this instance it is a bad training technique to do an uppercut in this fashion. The energy in chum kil at that point is forward, so to change and go upward is poor

There is certainly nothing wrong with changing forms or doing something different as long as it has correct energy, movement and purpose

Uppercuts and hooks in wing chun need to use the whole body to work. A boxers punch doesnt. A boxer will obviously have more power if he uses a pivot, but it isnt necessary to pull off the hook, which was the original point. 
Chunners tend to proclaim that they teach everything and it is of course ALL wing chun. Nothing ever borrowed from other arts etc and that really gets my goat up

Instead of trying to make your art tick every box, use what works by training other styles and give them credit when its due. This is exactly why certain other forums harp on about wing chun sucking  because a lot of chunners are brainwashed in the belief that wing chun will solve everything thrown at them. It will not. Wing chun is a good art, but like all good arts, still misses certain things


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