# What is Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu?



## DoubleZ711

I read a pamphlet from a local martial arts academy and this was listed as a class to take, but when I came home to research it I couldn't find anything. Does anyone know what this is?


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## elder999

From their website:



> Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu ("fawn-coo rue") is a fighting Art based on sound Jujitsu principles and sixty-five years of real life study and development by founder Lt.Col Mark A. Miles, for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use. There are no kata's or dance steps to learn as in karate and other Arts. Instead, you will learn stand up fighting, and grappling skills as well as jointlocks and throwing techniques. This Art is ideal for people working in security related occupations. This Art is not a sport. Our goal is to teach you how to defend yourself, not how to score points in some arena.


 
Oooh, and I just can't resist: _phan ku ryu_ you too! :lol:


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## DoubleZ711

Does it seem legit or like some knockoff martial art?


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Phan ku is not Japanese if that is what you mean by legit.

You would have to ask them where their jujutsu comes from.


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## Tez3

I dislike the disparaging remarks about other arts though, a hint perhaps that it may be a bit up itself? Only way to find out is to go along and see for yourself.


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> I dislike the disparaging remarks about other arts though, a hint perhaps that it may be a bit up itself? Only way to find out is to go along and see for yourself.


 

I don't know that they were "disparaging," and not merely pointing out the difference between what they do and what some people might expect-though, if they're modeling their training on Japanese jujutsu training, saying that they have no "katas" is probably somewhat misleading. As for legitimacy, they say up front that the art is the creation of a Lt. Col. Mark A Miles. This doesn't mean that they're not teaching something useful, and it doesn't mean that they are-the only way to find that out is, as Tez said, to check it out yourself. It in _does_ mean that they're probably not connected to any Japanese jujutsu in any but the most marginal of ways, and probably not connected with any historically "legitimate" martial arts governing body or style. 

It also means that they've been pretty honest so far: no secret lineage, no mystery.......


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## Chris Parker

Hi,

While I agree that they have been very honest about not being a "legitimate" jujutsu system, I would question a couple of aspects.

There seems to be very little in the way of background, other than mention of "solid jujitsu (sic) principles and sixty-five years of real-life study... for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use". I would ask which Jujutsu it is based on? The generic version based mainly on Judo taught to the military post-WWII, or something else? I would also make the point that the military and civilian needs are very different, the military are expected to go into danger, while the civilian is expected to escape as soon as possible. This does make it hard (not impossible, but hard) to create a true military system, and then just turn it into a civilian art.

This is then followed with a very general (and often heard) statement about being "stand up fighting, and grappling skills as well as jointlocks and throwing techniques... ideal for people working in security related occupations. This Art is not a sport. Our goal is to teach you how to defend yourself, not how to score points in some arena." Not to disparage this claim, but it's becoming more and more common, more real than reality-based systems and MMA...

Add to this a non-Japanese name added to a Japanese term and (misspelled) Japanese Art, and I start to get less than positive vibes. With all that, though, the best idea is exactly what you have been recommended already. Go, talk to them, see what you think... and please let us know! This could be just an awkwardly named system with some really good instructors, or it could be nothing. Only one way to find out!


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## Tez3

elder999 said:


> I don't know that they were "disparaging," and not merely pointing out the difference between what they do and what some people might expect-though, if they're modeling their training on Japanese jujutsu training, saying that they have no "katas" is probably somewhat misleading. As for legitimacy, they say up front that the art is the creation of a Lt. Col. Mark A Miles. This doesn't mean that they're not teaching something useful, and it doesn't mean that they are-the only way to find that out is, as Tez said, to check it out yourself. It in _does_ mean that they're probably not connected to any Japanese jujutsu in any but the most marginal of ways, and probably not connected with any historically "legitimate" martial arts governing body or style.
> 
> It also means that they've been pretty honest so far: no secret lineage, no mystery.......


 
Dance steps? thats pretty disparaging if you use kata and Bunkai I'm afraid, it perpepuates the myth that kata has no use and is just dancing around.
MMA is a sport not an self defence art.


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## elder999

Tez3 said:


> Dance steps? thats pretty disparaging if you use kata and Bunkai I'm afraid, it perpepuates the myth that kata has no use and is just dancing around..


 
I *do* use kata and bunkai, and kata *is* a "dance." It's more than that, of course, so it's not "_just dancing around_," any more than any number of other dance forms are:there are dances for prayer, dances for fun, dances to tell stories and use as mnemonic devices. Kata is a "dance" for training principles and techniques of combat.



> _*Kata* is the dance, your spirit the music-_*Mas Oyama* (Miyagi Chojun?)


 
Not necessarily disparaging at all....(though I can see how some might view it that way-it's all in the reading, I guess.....)


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## arnisador

The description on the web page seems to be up-front and also slightly hyperbolic. Check it out! It raises my suspicion level slightly but not greatly. It is likely misnamed in some sense but could still be great stuff.


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## Tez3

elder999 said:


> I *do* use kata and bunkai, and kata *is* a "dance." It's more than that, of course, so it's not "_just dancing around_," any more than any number of other dance forms are:there are dances for prayer, dances for fun, dances to tell stories and use as mnemonic devices. Kata is a "dance" for training principles and techniques of combat.
> 
> 
> 
> Not necessarily disparaging at all....(though I can see how some might view it that way-it's all in the reading, I guess.....)


 

It's not a dance the way we do it lol! it's an Ouch!
We follow Iain Abernethy's thoughts on Bunkai, plain, straight forward and painful to the attacker.

It _is_ all on the way it's read but if you are intending to recruit students a slightly less sneer like blurb is more appropriate. first impressons etc, I wouldn't go to that school because the first impression I got was that it was sounding a tad arrogant, a bit macho. To attract me I'd like something more informative and less in your face, horses for courses though it will attract others of a like mind I suppose and then it'll have done it's job I guess.


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## Saitama Steve

Phan Ku very much for giving me money!

What do you use as an infantryman on the battlefield? Rifle and Bayonet. GPMG or Mini-Me (What the U.S. forces call the S.A.W. .223 calibre.)


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## Tez3

Saitama Steve said:


> Phan Ku very much for giving me money!
> 
> What do you use as an infantryman on the battlefield? Rifle and Bayonet. GPMG or Mini-Me (What the U.S. forces call the S.A.W. .223 calibre.)


 
Call in the RAF for air strikes.


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## Saitama Steve

Tez3 said:


> Call in the RAF for air strikes.


 
There ya go! Precisely. If it gets to H2H, you know that somethings gone very wrong with the small unit tactics that your squad leader knows.


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## Naosuke

OK everybody... I joined this forum just to answer this thread. I study at the PhanKu Ryu Dojo in Aransas (the one on the website). It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu. We aren't trying to offend when we say we don't do kata, we just want to be straight forward with our style of learning. All jujitsu schools are this way, guys. As for the Chinese/Japanese name, i'm not really sure... just a funny name i guess... Anyhoo, this is a credible style. Sensei Mike is one HARDCORE mofo. Look up the review of our school on **************


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## Naosuke

hmmm... bullshido did a review on our school, and a pretty good one @ that... check it out if you're curious and u can't catch one of our classes.


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## Chris Parker

Naosuke said:


> OK everybody... I joined this forum just to answer this thread. I study at the PhanKu Ryu Dojo in Aransas (the one on the website). It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu. We aren't trying to offend when we say we don't do kata, we just want to be straight forward with our style of learning. All jujitsu schools are this way, guys. As for the Chinese/Japanese name, i'm not really sure... just a funny name i guess... Anyhoo, this is a credible style. Sensei Mike is one HARDCORE mofo. Look up the review of our school on **************


 
Cool, thanks for joining us. I'm still a little unsure of a couple of things, though...

To begin with, where exactly does your jujitsu (sic) come from? You mention that it is Japanese, and was developed after Col. Miles was taught by a "samurai" family, but I don't see any names for the system studied or the family who taught it. Oh, and having the claim "he was taught by a "samurai" family when living in Japan" often has the reaction of disbelief (at best). This is not to say it couldn't happen, just that it would be completely out of character for a Japanese tradition as strong as a samurai martial tradition to be taught to a member of what was an occupying force. Gaijin and all that (iteki, if we want to get a little less polite).

Where does the name (Phan Ku) come from? As pointed out, it doesn't have a very Japanese ring to it, I would have expected a more Japanese name for a "Japanese jujitsu (sic)", or even for Col. Miles to possibly name it after himself (Miles Jujutsu, perhaps). The use of the term Ryu is obviously Japanese, but Phan is just as obviously not. Ku could go either way, really.

As for not doing kata, and that being the way all jujutsu schools are, well we may just be using different terminology there. If you are refering to kata as taught in karate systems, then you are fundamentally correct (although not quite totally). There is not a large number of systems that use long strings of combinations and techniques in a memorized pattern as a training tool. But that is how a number of schools teach their weapon systems, and they often use a much shorter form (often paired) to teach the jujutsu portion of their syllabus. And these are refered to as kata. So if you teach by way of memorised/repeated patterns, or drills, whether solo or with a partner, and it is a Japanese art, then you are training in kata. Just so you know.

It is also stated on the website that it is a military system which has been adapted for civilian use. My other post here addresses my concerns over that, but I would add here that if this is a "Japanese jujitsu (sic)", and is also based on "traditional jujitsu" learnt by Col. Miles father (if I read that right), then it isn't really a military system to begin with. If it is a military system to begin with, then it is really based on the training Col. Miles had in the army. So my question is, which is it?

With all of this, though, it doesn't take anything away from the skills you may have learned, or the effectiveness of the techniques you have trained in. I am simply interested in what the vagueries in the website alluded to. Hope you can help.

Oh, and finally, bullshido giving a good review isn't really looked on as a badge of honour amongst many martial artists. It's kind of like a chocolate lovers society telling people about the best diets involving cake. Not the best people to ask. I'm glad you enjoy it, we are just interested in the historical side of things. And there are still a few unanswered questions here, if you don't mind.


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and finally, bullshido giving a good review isn't really looked on as a badge of honour amongst many martial artists. It's kind of like a chocolate lovers society telling people about the best diets involving cake. Not the best people to ask.


Bullshido is a perfectly fine forum and you can get good information from questions there.  But you have to know what questions to ask and understand what the answers mean as well as understand the mind set of the people responding.  Bullshido is not like most other Martial Arts related forums.  They serve a particular niche and serve it well.  Unfortunately they also seem to attract rabid individuals who think their personal purview is greater than it actually is.  Many of them exhibit behavior which is generally associated with inexperienced, yet full of argumentative hubris, teenagers.

You just have to use your filters to pick up who to pay attention to and who to ignore.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> jujitsu (sic)



Jujitsu is the preferred form of the English word jujitsu (a loanword from the Japanese word now rendered as _jujutsu_ in our alphabet), so the "sic" is unnecessary.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jujitsu



> *jujitsu*
> 1875, from Japanese jujutsu, from ju "softness, gentleness" (from Chinese jou "soft, gentle") + jutsu "art, science," from Chinese shu, shut.


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=jujutsu&db=luna



> *ju·jut·su*              (j&#333;&#333;-j&#301;t's&#333;&#333
> n.    Variant of jujitsu.


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## Chris Parker

Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).

I will admit that this is quite a pet peeve of mine, I suppose I just get concerned over anyone claiming to teach an art from a long heritage and not even know how to spell the name properly. And this goes to any -jitsu, ninjitsu, jujitsu, jiu-jitsu, aikijujitsu etc. Not just here. If you check any Japanese source, or ask any Japanese person, you will find that the term "jitsu" is just plain incorrect. Sorry.

Oh, and for the record, for Japanese words, I tend to favour the Japanese dictionaries. For example, I use something nice and basic, "The Kodansha Kanji Learner's Dictionary". And for further reference, see things like Tanemura Sensei's 6th volume in his Samurai Jujutsu series of tapes for Panther Productions. He goes into quite a bit of detail on just this topic, demonstrating the difference between the kanji and how a Japanese person reacts to the mis-pronunciations out there. Good watching!


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).


"Jiu-Jitsu" and "Jiu-Jutsu" were *THE* standard romanizations of the term when it was first romanized in the late 19th Century and early 20th.  Look at Barton-Wright, Lanius, Liederman, Gotch, Hackenschmit, Fox's, etc., all from the late 19th and early 20th and all use "Jui-Jitsu."  IMS, even the English manuals written by Japanese practitioners (Tani, iirc) have this spelling in the originals.  This is a direct result of what linguists at the time were saying and it entered common usage, there to remain for more than a Cetury and still going strong.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JadecloudAlchemist

If you want to lets look at the Kanji then:

&#23455;=jitsu
&#34899;=jutsu

As you can see they are different Kanji.
 Jitsu means truth as Chris said.
Jutsu-means technique/art.

The thing is the way a native might say Jujutsu but say it fast so it might sounded like Jujitsu to the untrained Western ear. However Japanese would never call it Jujitsu because it 1.incorrect pronounce of the word Jujutsu and also the Kanji for Jitsu/Jutsu are different.


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## arnisador

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> If you want to lets look at the Kanji then:
> 
> &#23455;=jitsu
> &#34899;=jutsu
> 
> As you can see they are different Kanji.
> Jitsu means truth as Chris said.
> Jutsu-means technique/art.
> 
> The thing is the way a native might say Jujutsu but say it fast so it might sounded like Jujitsu to the untrained Western ear. However Japanese would never call it Jujitsu because it 1.incorrect pronounce of the word Jujutsu and also the Kanji for Jitsu/Jutsu are different.



The word came into English when the proper way to render it was jujitsu. It became a loanword that is now a recognized English word. 

I went and searched the NY Times for _jujutsu_ and got 24 results. I searched it for jujitsu and got 1990 results. That's how the word is spelled in English: as jujitsu.

If you were transliterating it for the first time today, you'd render it as jujutsu. But, it wasn't discovered today.

*JUJITSU WINS FAVOR HERE; Hobbyists Can Develop It For Defense as Well As for Exercise Speed and Finesse Weapons Ineffective*



> By JOHN MARKLAND
> March 6, 1938, Sunday
> Section: RESORTS, TRAVEL, STAMPS, HOBBIES, AUTOMOBILES, AVIATION, Page 168, 631 words
> JUJITSU, the Japanese national sport, came into the headlines recently when the Japanese Ambassador to France, Yotaro Sugimura, gave a jujitsu exhibition before Parisian - diplomats, social leaders and members of royalty.


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## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling



It's the correct English spelling.



> I will admit that this is quite a pet peeve of mine, I suppose I just get concerned over anyone claiming to teach an art from a long heritage and not even know how to spell the name properly.


 
I understand your concern.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> The word came into English when the proper way to render it was jujitsu. It became a loanword that is now a recognized English word.
> 
> I went and searched the NY Times for _jujutsu_ and got 24 results. I searched it for jujitsu and got 1990 results. That's how the word is spelled in English: as jujitsu.
> 
> If you were transliterating it for the first time today, you'd render it as jujutsu. But, it wasn't discovered today.


 Jujitsu is not correct if you say it. If a native reads it as Jujitsu it is not correct. Here it is in Hiragana: &#12376;&#12421;&#12358;&#12376;&#12388; Juujitsu and Juujutsu &#12376;&#12421;&#12358;&#12376;&#12421;&#12388; Notice how Jitsu and Jutsu in Hiragana. I already presented the difference in Kanji. If you want to get even more technical the Ju in Jujutsu is a long U so Juu is correct which is why if you type it in Hiragana it comes out as I presented which is correct. I really don't care how English says is correct since it is a Japanese word I will trust Japanese on how to read it,How to say it and how to write it. As I said also Jujitsu is most likely a mishearing of the word Jujutsu by Japanese saying it fast or a not clear sound which Foreigns heard as Jujitsu. But hey if you can read Kanji,Hiragana then by all means feel free to correct me.

No one is denying that early Gaijin heard and translated Jujutsu as Jujitsu Jiujitsu and every other mistranslation. But we now know thru proper studying of the Kanji and Hiragana that it was incorrect when the early Gaijin came about. To be fair Japanese when writing into English sometimes spell things out in phonics or what sounds correct to them. I have seen Doesn't spelled as Dosen't.


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## arnisador

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> I really don't care how English says is correct since it is a Japanese word



No. Jujitsu is an English word that originated in a Japanese word, much like psychology is an English word derived from words of Greek origin. To say jujitsu is wrong is like saying psychology should be spelled sychology.



> No one is denying that early Gaijin heard and translated Jujutsu as Jujitsu Jiujitsu and every other mistranslation.



It wasn't wrong at the time, and that's how it came over. It wasn't a mistransliteration; it was consistent with the system then in use, and was adopted into English. Algebra is a word of Arabic origin, but we don't change it when transliteration systems change, do we? Peking to Beijing, etc., was the main exception.


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## Chris Parker

No, jujutsu is a Japanese word. Jujitsu is a Western mistake, which has taken prominence. Hashashin is an Arabic word, the English is assassin, this is an English adoption and adaptation of a foreign language term for it's own uses, in regard to jujutsu/jitsu, it is still in reference to Japanese martial traditions.

English, as a language, has it's roots in Latin, a few Germanic tongues, original Saxon, and Classical Greek. This is one of the reasons it makes very little sense, by the way. It just gets itself confused. 

But you may notice that there is no Asian language making up the construct of English, although certain words have made their way into the popular lexicon (kung fu, karate, konichiwa, arigato, etc). This does not make them English words, any more than "weekend" is a French word, although it is in common use in France (and there, it is actually used in a very French way... and refer to it as "le weekend").

So we can either continue to repeat the now obvious mistakes of the past, or we can begin to correct them and improve our understanding of our global neighbours in all ways. The only way I can see to go is to recognize an error, correct it, and move on. Even the Catholic Church has managed that from time to time (the restoration of Mary of Magdalene to Follower of Christ, not prostitute, after literally centuries of misinformation comes to mind...).


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## JadecloudAlchemist

> No. Jujitsu is an English word that originated in a Japanese word, much like psychology is an English word derived from words of Greek origin. To say jujitsu is wrong is like saying psychology should be spelled sychology.


 You know what your right I mean someone who speaks,writes,reads Japanese,Married to a native(who also says its Jujutsu) and who lived in Japan is wrong.


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## Tez3

fascinating.............not.


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## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> No, jujutsu is a Japanese word. Jujitsu is a Western mistake



No, _jujutsu_ is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.

It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.

Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French.



JadecloudAlchemist said:


> You know what your right I mean someone who speaks,writes,reads Japanese,Married to a native(who also says its Jujutsu) and who lived in Japan is wrong.



Yup. I think the problem is a failure to understand the distinction between a loanword like jujitsu and a transliteration as is being done for _jujutsu_ here.


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## Tez3

Americans pronounce many words differently from English speaking non Americans. In the UK we pronounce words differently from each other depending on where you come from, it's an interesting subject but little to do with martial arts really.
The nub of the question to me, as always, is can you fight? Does the pronounciation stop it being an effective art?


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## Chris Parker

Well, I seem to have started something here...

Yes, Tez, you are absolutely correct, skill is the determining factor in the assessment of a martial art(ist), but as this thread was asking about the possible legitimacy of a particular organisation, I feel it is prudent to look to their name as one factor. And, as stated, if they are claiming descent from a "samurai" family is Japan, they should, at the very least, get the name right. 

For one last time, Jutsu is correct, Jitsu is not. Check out Jadeclouds post. There it is. Plain and simple. Different. Really, check it again. Different. If your argument is that it was deemed correct in the past, well, we've learnt a fair bit over time, maybe you should take this new piece of information and absorb it for future reference.

(originally posted by Arnisador) *"No, jujutsu is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.*

*It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.*

*Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French."*

No, as stated, Latin (the basis for French) and French are integral parts of the mix that spawned English, so the same correlation doesn't quiet work. I would say your argument is closer to insisting that we refer to Japanese ritual suicide as "hari kari", because that is the common way it has been pronounced (and, fo rthe record, the correct term is hara kiri, although even that is considered quite impolite. The proper term is seppuku).

If you insist on claiming that jujitsu is correct because people used it (incorrectly) in the late 19th, early 20th century, we're always going to have this issue. So what do you say we let it rest now, we've both presented our sides, each indidvidual can make up their own mind now. Cool?


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Well, I seem to have started something here...
> 
> Yes, Tez, you are absolutely correct, skill is the determining factor in the assessment of a martial art(ist), but as this thread was asking about the possible legitimacy of a particular organisation, I feel it is prudent to look to their name as one factor. And, as stated, if they are claiming descent from a "samurai" family is Japan, they should, at the very least, get the name right.
> 
> For one last time, Jutsu is correct, Jitsu is not. Check out Jadeclouds post. There it is. Plain and simple. Different. Really, check it again. Different. If your argument is that it was deemed correct in the past, well, we've learnt a fair bit over time, maybe you should take this new piece of information and absorb it for future reference.
> 
> (originally posted by Arnisador) *"No, jujutsu is an English rendering of a Japanese word. Jujitsu is an English word, as easily verified by consulting English-language dictionaries.*
> 
> *It wasn't a mistake. It was the correct way to do it at the time.*
> 
> *Your position is akin to insisting that we pronounce hospital as opital because that's how the French say it, and we got it from Old French."*
> 
> No, as stated, Latin (the basis for French) and French are integral parts of the mix that spawned English, so the same correlation doesn't quiet work. I would say your argument is closer to insisting that we refer to Japanese ritual suicide as "hari kari", because that is the common way it has been pronounced (and, fo rthe record, the correct term is hara kiri, although even that is considered quite impolite. The proper term is seppuku).
> 
> If you insist on claiming that jujitsu is correct because people used it (incorrectly) in the late 19th, early 20th century, we're always going to have this issue. So what do you say we let it rest now, we've both presented our sides, each indidvidual can make up their own mind now. Cool?


 

Language is a fluid, ever changing living entity, English has many words in it derived from many languages not just French. The important thing is that we understand what is mean by a word and not nit pick. I do Brazilian *Jujitsu*, it is understood by most what is meant by that and that's the point of a word.  
Seppuku only refers to male suicide, women have their own word Jingai as the process is different.

I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students then you wouldn't have childish arguments over spellings!
I'm sorry but looking at it from the outside it looks childish arguing over spelling when discussing martial arts, in a language argument perhaps not so much.

Btw the word is hashishin and assasin is French.
From the Concise Dictionary of English Etymology one of my favourite books, sits on my computer desk. We could argue over the spelling of favourite though.
Many English words aren't derived as such from the Greek but are deliberately made up from Greek words, psychology is one.

_In consequence of the absurd mania for making use of 
    Graeco-Latin compounds to describe inventions, it 
    requires some knowledge of the ancient languages to 
    understand even their names. But, perhaps, the difficulty 
    increases in proportion to the correctness of one's 
    scholarship. ... The term "idrotobolic", applied to hats, 
    may boast of a more correct etymology, but what shall we 
    say of "athicktobathron" for a carriage-step and 
    "purdonium" for a coal-scuttle? 
    [Hortensius: Or, The Advocate: An Historical Essay, by 
    William Forsyth, 1849._



 On the subject of hospital v ospital, Americans pronounce herb as erb whereas we pronounce the h.

If we are going to discuss etymology we really should have another thread.


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## Chris Parker

Tez3 said:


> Language is a fluid, ever changing living entity, English has many words in it derived from many languages not just French...
> 
> ...If we are going to discuss etymology we really should have another thread.


 
Absolutely agreed. As I said, I think we've all made our points about as well as we can. Oh, and on the seppuku point, yes I am aware of the female version (jingai), but as hara kiri means "belly cut", and hari kari is the common mispronunciation, I only applied the male. The female version involves using a tanto to cut your own carotid/jugular, if I recall correctly, and is therefore not quite the same.


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## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Absolutely agreed. As I said, I think we've all made our points about as well as we can. Oh, and on the seppuku point, yes I am aware of the female version (jingai), but as hara kiri means "belly cut", and hari kari is the common mispronunciation, I only applied the male. The female version involves using a tanto to cut your own carotid/jugular, if I recall correctly, and is therefore not quite the same.


 
Oh I don't know, it's all fairly terminal!


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## arnisador

Tez3 said:


> I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students



Well...it depends on what you want from your study of the martial arts. If you want to be a great fighter via studying Karate or a top Olympic Judo player by studying Judo, I agree. But in Sumo, for example, the history is part of the allure and mystique. Why do people study Iaido? For different reasons, of course, but for some it's a cultural connection, like an Irish child deciding to study Irish clog-dancing rather than Russian ballet. In that case a verifiable connection to one's past could be of interest. In the Philippines they introduced Filipino martial arts (through Modern Arnis) into the high school curriculum as part of an effort to reconnect people with their cultural traditions. For some people just being part of a centuries-old organization has a certain draw that appeals to them and that may be a more important factor to them than than to others--especially for people training as a hobby rather than for self-defense.

So yes, lineage can matter to a person! Not everyone studies the arts for the same reasons.


----------



## howard

lklawson said:


> Bullshido...serve(s) a particular niche...  Unfortunately they also seem to attract rabid individuals who think their personal purview is greater than it actually is.  Many of them exhibit behavior which is generally associated with inexperienced, yet full of argumentative hubris, teenagers.


You don't say.


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## Tez3

arnisador said:


> Well...it depends on what you want from your study of the martial arts. If you want to be a great fighter via studying Karate or a top Olympic Judo player by studying Judo, I agree. But in Sumo, for example, the history is part of the allure and mystique. Why do people study Iaido? For different reasons, of course, but for some it's a cultural connection, like an Irish child deciding to study Irish clog-dancing rather than Russian ballet. In that case a verifiable connection to one's past could be of interest. In the Philippines they introduced Filipino martial arts (through Modern Arnis) into the high school curriculum as part of an effort to reconnect people with their cultural traditions. For some people just being part of a centuries-old organization has a certain draw that appeals to them and that may be a more important factor to them than than to others--especially for people training as a hobby rather than for self-defense.
> 
> So yes, lineage can matter to a person! Not everyone studies the arts for the same reasons.


 
In the UK however the word is hardly ever used and people here must train for all the different reasons they do in the States? In fact I'd never heard of anone talking about lineage before I came on to MT! we must do at least as many different cultures MAs.
I'm not sure about the allure of history as far as sumo is concerned!
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3301568/Women-storm-the-sumo-ring.html


----------



## arnisador

I know many Filipinos who train the FMAs particularly for the cultural connection and chose their art on country of origin, not effectiveness. (Mind you, I think the FMAs are effective!) Bear in mind that TKD is the most popular art there as it is here in the U.S. so this is something of a "backlash" too.

Surely there are people there doing traditional English broadsword because they're English history buffs? The people who seek out Mike Loades?



Tez3 said:


> I'm not sure about the allure of history as far as sumo is concerned!
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/3301568/Women-storm-the-sumo-ring.html



That was news to me!


----------



## Bruno@MT

Tez3 said:


> I find the whole thing of lineage strange and sometimes pretentious, what matters is that your instructor is a good one and teaches techniques that work. If people just judged the instructor/s by their teaching you wouldn't have this ridiculous thing where people have to advertise as being from samaurai ancestry or whatever to impress students then you wouldn't have childish arguments over spellings!



Hey Tez,
This is something I posted in another thread recently, regarding the issue of lineage

As for lineage, that is a bit trickier. There are 2 aspects to this that I can think of atm.

_1) Many of the traditional MA were developed in times where life or death personal combat was the way in which MA systems competed in a darwinian fashion. Styles that survived had an edge over those that didn't. The ryuha that make up Genbukan ninpo survived for hundreds of years. So that fact alone is a good indicator that there is inherent value in them. If the lineage has remained unbroken all these years, then hundreds of years of experience and battle tested techniques have been passed down so that you can learn them.
Otoh, if someone throws together their own MA (like Dragonball Ninjutsu), there is no proof that it is any good, or complete, or that it is built on solid principles. Even if someone uses it to compete successfully in UFC, that only proves that that specific fighter can fight UFC fights. 1 is a statistically irrelevant sample size.

2) Looking at it the other way, if someone fakes a lineage or tries to mislead others (ninjutsu is unfortunately a popular target for con men) then that person is a liar. That fact alone would be enough for me to not want to train with them._

Lack of lineage is not a problem imo. I did modern JJ for 3,5 years, and my sensei told me up front that it was a modern art without a traditional lineage. Fine. No problem. As long as noone lies about it, it does not influence my decision.

The unarmed fighting is only 1 aspect of ninpo.
Armed fighting is another, and then there is also the aspect of rolling and brealfalls, etc. The curriculum of these ryuha have been built over time. If the lineage is valid, then I can be reasonably sure that the curriculum is complete and all round.
Whereas if I would enroll in Dragonball Ninjutsu (not going to use 'real' names here) I would learn some flashy moves, but otherwise learn a curiculum that a) has been put together without the benefit of centuries of experience and b) which was created for the purpose of LARPing.

If I would care solely about the unarmed fighting aspect, then I would agree with your point.


----------



## Tez3

arnisador said:


> I know many Filipinos who train the FMAs particularly for the cultural connection and chose their art on country of origin, not effectiveness. (Mind you, I think the FMAs are effective!) Bear in mind that TKD is the most popular art there as it is here in the U.S. so this is something of a "backlash" too.
> 
> Surely there are people there doing traditional English broadsword because they're English history buffs? The people who seek out Mike Loades?
> 
> 
> 
> That was news to me!


 

The Sumos cool isn't it!

I'm not saying people don't do things for cultural reasons, thats not what I mean, it's a different subject. What I'm getting at is that in martial arts here we don't talk about who our instructor trained under, or who that instructor trained under very much. That lineage isn't very impotant. if your instructor is a good one it doesn't matter who his instructor's instructor's instructor was.


----------



## Chris Parker

True, Tez, however if your teacher is marketing themselves as teaching a particular tradition, and then you learn that they have either deliberately or mistakenly mislead or lied about it, then you could have a grievance against them. The argument here boils down to whether or not someone is truly representing themselves honestly, and if you are being charged for the teachings, it is good to know if you are not being taken for a ride. And this all started when I said that not knowing how to spell your own arts name is a bit of a bad sign... Oh, well.


----------



## Chris Parker

Oh, and for the record, I was much more interested in learning more about the system and it's background from Naosuke, as that was what he said he was here for, rather than simply arguing over correct use of language for two pages. But it seems that he is not answering. Oh, well, maybe one day.


----------



## Tez3

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and for the record, I was much more interested in learning more about the system and it's background from Naosuke, as that was what he said he was here for, rather than simply arguing over correct use of language for two pages. But it seems that he is not answering. Oh, well, maybe one day.


 
it's always pleasant to chat though!


----------



## Chris Parker

That it is, my Lady, that it is. Would that all such conversations in my experiences were engaged with such an eloquent conoiseur of language in all it's subtleties and flair. Well met, I say, well met indeed...


----------



## frank raud

Chris Parker said:


> Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]
> 
> Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?


----------



## Carol

frank raud said:


> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]
> 
> Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The suffix -jutsu  is spelled "jutsu" in romanji, and should be spelled with a U when referring to Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, etc.
> 
> If relating to the Japanese term, the preferred romanization is with an I instead of a U. Romanization is primarily for the benefit of pronunciation by non-Japanese.
> 
> The reason is because the "Ju-" is actually what the Japanese would consider to be a long "u" sound, meaning the sound is held for a beat longer than it would normally be.  When the art is romanized as "Jujutsu", the first two syllables tend to be pronounced with the same U sound, which is incorrect.
> 
> With the spelling of "Jujitsu", there is a difference in the pronounciation of the syllables, to reflect the difference in how the word is pronounced in Japanese.
> 
> If you go to an academic dictionary that will accept romanji input, such as Jim Breen's WWWJDIC and type in the word "Jujutsu", you will not find a match.  However, if you type in the word "jujitsu", you will find a match:
> 
> [SIZE=+1]&#26580;&#34899; &#12304;&#12376;&#12421;&#12358;&#12376;&#12421;&#12388;&#12305;[/SIZE]  (n) classical Japanese martial art, usually referring to fighting without a weapon; jujitsu
Click to expand...


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I suppose the correct manner would be ,_j&#363;jutsu  _The correct Ju or Jyuu is pronounced with this Hiragana: &#12376;&#12421;&#12358; vs this Hirgana &#12376;&#12421; for Ju.



> &#26580;&#34899;


 This Kanji is for Jujutsu or Jyujyutsu notice how the jyu sound is different than the jeetsu sound found in jujitsu. Even when spoke by a native the sound is different but whatever if Americans want to say it jujitsu....


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## Chris Parker

Hi,

Hoped we may have gotten past this, but one last time...



Carol Kaur said:


> The suffix -jutsu is spelled "jutsu" in romanji, and should be spelled with a U when referring to Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, etc.
> 
> This is correct. It is "jutsu" for any Japanese or Japanese-derived art, as "jitsu" is a different word entirely.
> 
> If relating to the Japanese term, the preferred romanization is with an I instead of a U. Romanization is primarily for the benefit of pronunciation by non-Japanese.
> 
> I don't quite agree here. The romanization using an "i" to make "jitsu" makes it the wrong word. If we are going to romanize for the benefit of non-Japanese in their pronunciation, maybe we should just get it right in the first place?
> 
> The reason is because the "Ju-" is actually what the Japanese would consider to be a long "u" sound, meaning the sound is held for a beat longer than it would normally be. When the art is romanized as "Jujutsu", the first two syllables tend to be pronounced with the same U sound, which is incorrect.
> 
> Well, absolutely technically, the two "u" sounds actually are different. The first is a long "uu" sound, sometimes romanized as "jyu", and the second is a short "u", making the entire word "jooo-jootsoo". But turning it into an "i" (which in Japanese is an "ee"-type sound) is again, simply the wrong word.
> 
> With the spelling of "Jujitsu", there is a difference in the pronounciation of the syllables, to reflect the difference in how the word is pronounced in Japanese.
> 
> Pen, pan, pin, pun, all very different words in English with very different meanings. But if you say them fast, to a non-English speaking listener, and you may get some confusion.
> 
> If you go to an academic dictionary that will accept romanji input, such as Jim Breen's WWWJDIC and type in the word "Jujutsu", you will not find a match. However, if you type in the word "jujitsu", you will find a match:
> 
> I may suggest it needs to be updated, then. And as for "finding the term in a dictionary, so it must be correct", you find plenty of "words" that are simply incorrect even in English. For example, current dictionaries are being created with "text-speak" included, such as lol, rofl etc. These are not words, are not accepted as words, but are there.
> 
> [SIZE=+1]&#26580;&#34899; &#12304;&#12376;&#12421;&#12358;&#12376;&#12421;&#12388;&#12305;[/SIZE] (n) classical Japanese martial art, usually referring to fighting without a weapon; jujitsu
> 
> Here, I refer you to Jadeclouds earlier post, as well as his most recent. The kanji shown here is not "jitsu". It has never been "jitsu". It is, and has always been, "jutsu". Just because someone else got it wrong, there is no reason for everyone to blindly follow. Mistakes are to be learned from, not repeated if better knowledge is there for you.
> 
> Okay, rant over. Back to your regular thread. And please let this be the end of this?


----------



## Chris Parker

frank raud said:


> Chris Parker said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).quote]
> 
> Why is it acceptable for Brazillian jiu jitsu to use that spelling, but not for another obviously non-koryu made in America style?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh, and for the record, I am really not fond of BJJ mis-using the language, but as they use almost no other Japanese terms (aside from kimono, and I'm not getting into the fact that a gi is really based on the under-kimono, or old-style underwear, rather than a real kimono, so that term isn't really well-chosen either...), I recognise a losing battle when I see it.
> 
> I would like to make clear that I have no issues with the technical side of things at all, that is an entirely different discussion, just with the mis-use of language.
Click to expand...


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## Aiki Lee

anyway...

Has anyone found out what Phan Ku is?


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## elder999

Himura Kenshin said:


> *<snip!>*_Phan Ku ?_*<snip!>*


 

*Gesundheit!* :lol:


----------



## elder999

Himura Kenshin said:


> Has anyone found out what Phan Ku is?


 

Hadn't really bothered looking, but:



> Of various creation stories which evolve in China, the most striking is that of P'an Ku. He is hatched from a cosmic egg. Half the shell is above him as the sky, the other half below him as the earth. He grows taller each day for 18,000 years, gradually pushing them apart until they reach their appointed places. After all this effort P'an Ku falls to pieces. His limbs become the mountains, his blood the rivers, his breath the wind and his voice the thunder. His two eyes are the sun and the moon. The parasites on his body are mankind. .........
> 
> ...... In summation, the Chinese say that everything that is - is Phan Ku and everything that *Phan Ku is yin-yang*.


 
Seen here

as well as on the Phan Ku Jujitsu website, here


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## Aiki Lee

so then the creator of this style is mixing chinese words with mispelled japanese words (or an older correct at the time spelling of an english word describing a Japanese system).

Whether his techniques and strategies are effective or not the orgin of his system seems suspect to me.


----------



## elder999

Himura Kenshin said:


> so then the creator of this style is mixing chinese words with mispelled japanese words (or an older correct at the time spelling of an english word describing a Japanese system).
> 
> Whether his techniques and strategies are effective or not the orgin of his system seems suspect to me.


 
Well, the name is certainly suspect, but what is said about it's founding:



> Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu ("fawn-coo rue") is a fighting Art based on sound Jujitsu principles and sixty-five years of real life study and development by founder Lt.Col Mark A. Miles, for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use.


 
isn't too different from a lot of other _gaijin gendai_ ryu, good and bad, effective and not so much.... It would be helpful if he detailed his background and ranking in whatever styles he studied (one assumes Kodokan judo, but who knows?) but there it is.


----------



## frank raud

Chris Parker said:


> Sorry, not quite. "Jutsu" means "practical art", "jitsu" means "truth". They are very different words, with very different kanji (written characters), and the only acknowledged use of this common mis-spelling is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (who actually manage to get both characters wrong...).


 
Examples of this common "mispelling" would include Wally Jay's Small Circle ju jitsu, Can ryu jiu jitsu, at least half the sites for Danzan ryu, the jitsu foundation, jiu jitsu international(Richard Morris organization) World jiu jitsu federation, and many more. It would seem to be the common spelling in the English world. As there are many words that are spelled differently in American and English dictionaries(honour, honor, colour, color,grey,gray), yet have the exact same meaning, again I ask why is it acceptable for Brazilian jiu jitsu to be referred to as such, yet it is incorrect for other obviously non-koryu styles?


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## Aiki Lee

But then what if they wanted to spell out the japanese word for truth, i.e. "jitsu"?

I recognize the points on both sides, but I have to agree with JCA and Chris. It should be spelled "jutsu" because it should be pronounced "jutsu" Any time someone uses a foriegn word they should try to say it as close to the native way as possible. Or else it is the same as spelling "karate" as "kahroddy" or saying "case-a-dilla" is a reasonable substitute for quesadilla.


----------



## arnisador

Or saying _Japan_ when you mean _Nippon_.


----------



## Chris Parker

Well, we're getting a little technical again here. "Japan" is the English name for the country, "Nippon" is the Japanese name (in their native tongue). This is similar to England being called "Angleterre" in French. We are then talking about different languages, which we are not in the earlier case.

Himura, if they were meaning the word "Jitsu", meaning "truth", then they are obviously able to use the correct word. But that would also mean using the correct kanji, which universally is not the case. The kanji and translation used is always the one for "Jutsu". But please, anyone who has encountered a school using the "jitsu" kanji and translation, please let me (and us) know!

Frank Raud, the reason BJJ seems to be allowed the use of the incorrect spelling is that they have broken almost completely away from their Japanese roots, and use almost no Japanese terminology. I still don't like it, but there it is. As for the other organisations you mention, they each trace themselves back to Japan, and claim their knowledge from Japan in the first place, however, they each have adopted a mistaken use of the language due to a lack of understanding fo the language in the first place. I stand by my comment that maybe it is time they updated their knowledge.

I find this type of mistake similar to a foreign group of people saying they are going to MacDonalds to get some hambuggers... just one letter different, but the meaning changes quite a bit. And then the same group of people continuing to use the term "hambugger" even when the mistake is pointed out. A little on the funny side, but the same idea, really.

To take an example from one of my other favourite areas of interest, paleontology, there have been many mistakes in the past which have been corrected even against common knowledge, and some of these people here may find they are incorrect on as well. Probably the best is the case of the Brontosaurus. The original fossil which was classified as a "Brontosaurus" was not complete when found (which is really pretty common), and was missing possibly the most important part of the skelleton, the skull. But another skull was found nearby, and was assumed to be the one from the "new" creature.

Unfortunately, this was the wrong skull (it in fact belonged to a creature known as a Cammarosaurus), and when the real skull was found later, it was found that the supposed "new" creature had already been described, and was called "Apatosaurus". So Brontosaurus, although one of the best known, and best-loved of the early-described dinosaurs, was not a creature at all. And the entire scientific community has accepted this, and moved on. We are probably the equivalent within our community, so if we can't get it right, who will?

And finally, the differing spelling of words such as "honour/honor" etc. reflect differing expressions of differing areas, not differing languages, nor indeed differing words, as is the case with "jutsu/jitsu".

Now, really, this was just one aspect of the original post that I picked up on. Can we see if we can get more of an idea of what the system itself is like now? The suspect history and name aside, can we see if we can get some answers?


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## Bruno@MT

You might as well try to convince people that 'keeping out the cold' is a wrong concept and that they're really keeping in the heat.

For better or worse, people having been using jiu-jitsu and ju-jitsu for a long time now as a _name _for their system and no amount of nitpicking will change this.
I understand all the arguments as to the name being wrong. But once something is used as a name, it tends to stick.

I had a teacher in college who was on a crusade to make everyone say PC (programmable controller) instead of PLC (Progammable Logic Controller).
His argument was that these things had gone way beyond their original functionality in the course of time, and he found the reference to 'logic' wrong for several reasons.

And technically he was right. But that doesn't change the fact that his efforts are futile, or that noone will ever change the use of the term 'PLC'.
Once something becomes a name instead of a meaningful description, discussion becomes moot.


----------



## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> Well, we're getting a little technical again here. "Japan" is the English name for the country, "Nippon" is the Japanese name (in their native tongue). This is similar to England being called "Angleterre" in French. We are then talking about different languages, which we are not in the earlier case.


 
You're now arguing my side of the matter. Jujitsu, like Japan, is an English word found in English dictionaries. Try looking up jujitsu and _jujutsu_ in an English dictionary and see for yourself. _Nippon_ and _jujutsu_ are Japanese words for which we have English equivalents that are not necessarily the most accurate in retrospect. But, I suppose if the Hellenes have gotten used to being called Greeks, the _jujutsu-ka_ can learn to live with being called jujitsu practitioners.



> the original post that I picked up on



Yeah, that was not very welcoming for someone's first two posts here.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

The word "Japan" is not an origin word from Japan. The Japanese use the word Nippon or Nihon which if we read the Kanji it means Sun origin or Sun core. Hence the land of the rising sun or the land of bright hope.


> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/japan
> 
> The interesting part is _Rìb&#283;nguó. _Rì b&#283;n &#26085;&#26412;  If you read this Kanji in Japanese it says Nihon. Also looking that the Sun rises in the East which is what Japan is to China we can see how land of the rising sun comes from similar to the West how China is land of the sun setting. I forget the old words for China in Japanese. But interesting read.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi, Arnisador,

I'm going to try to do this with as much tact and gentleness as I can at this point, and with as much respect as I can. To begin with, I might state that from your many other posts, and the way you conduct yourself on this forum, I have developed quite a bit of respect for you, however I cannot quite let this go just yet.



arnisador said:


> You're now arguing my side of the matter. Jujitsu, like Japan, is an English word found in English dictionaries. Try looking up jujitsu and _jujutsu_ in an English dictionary and see for yourself. _Nippon_ and _jujutsu_ are Japanese words for which we have English equivalents that are not necessarily the most accurate in retrospect. But, I suppose if the Hellenes have gotten used to being called Greeks, the _jujutsu-ka_ can learn to live with being called jujitsu practitioners.
> 
> "Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. It is a bastardisation of a Japanese term, mispronounced, misspelled, sent out to the world. "Jujutsu", however, is a Japanese word. And it is the correct one.
> 
> Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word. It simply means that it is a term which has entered the popular lexicon, such as (in recent editions of various dictionaries) text-speak; lol, rofl etc. These are not words, they are barely communication, but they still make it in.
> 
> As I stated in the the passage you quoted, we are dealing with different languages, not the same, so I am really not aarguing your side, you are actually mis-representing mine. Sorry.
> 
> And, as for "not very welcoming...", you do appear to have again misinterpretted what you have quoted. The line is "picked up on", not "picked on". And Naosuke did say that he was here to clear up about the school, so I feel asking questions is within the realms of acceptable behaviour, yes?
> 
> To sum up, though. While I respect you and your position, you are not a linguist, nor are you an expert on Japanese language, tradition, culture, or martial arts (Filipino and JKD are your areas, I believe). Jadecloud is an expert on the language, and has lived in Japan, and I personally specialise in the Japanese arts (in my research). My argument here is that we are supposed to know better, so maybe you could take this opportunity to improve your own knowledge on this subject? After all, isn't that the main point of these forums?


----------



## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> "Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. It is a bastardisation of a Japanese term, mispronounced, misspelled, sent out to the world. "Jujutsu", however, is a Japanese word. And it is the correct one.
> 
> Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word. It simply means that it is a term which has entered the popular lexicon, such as (in recent editions of various dictionaries) text-speak; lol, rofl etc. These are not words, they are barely communication, but they still make it in.
> .


 
At this point, I have to politely ask that you drop it-we're not going to agree, and, while your point has merit, it is basically invalid, in that it is chiefly supported by a subjective judgement on your part-"what makes a word a word?" 

From the very excellent _Merriam Webster's English Language Technical Manual_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.....as an aside, is "engineerspeak" a "word?" :lol:



> Main Entry: 1word
> 
> Pronunciation: \&#712;w&#601;rd\ Function: _noun_ Etymology: Middle English, from Old English; akin to Old High German _wort_ word, Latin _verbum,_ Greek _eirein_ to say, speak, Hittite _weriya-_ to call, name Date: before 12th century 1 a*:* *something that is said* b_plural_ (1)*:* talk , discourse <putting one's feelings into _word__s_> (2)*:* the text of a vocal musical composition c*:* a brief remark or conversation <would like to have a _word_ with you>2 a (1)*:* *a speech sound or series of speech sounds that symbolizes and communicates a meaning usually without being divisible into smaller units capable of independent use* (2)*:* the entire set of linguistic forms produced by combining a single base with various inflectional elements without change in the part of speech elements b (1)*:* *a written or printed character or combination of characters representing a spoken word* <the number of _word__s_ to a line> &#8212;sometimes used with the first letter of a real or pretended taboo word prefixed as an often humorous euphemism <the first man to utter the f _word_ on British TV &#8212; _Time_><we were not afraid to use the d _word_ and talk about death &#8212; Erma Bombeck> (2)*:* *any segment of written or printed discourse ordinarily appearing between spaces or between a space and a punctuation mark* c*:* a number of bytes processed as a unit and conveying a quantum of information in communication and computer


 
"Jujutsu," "jiu-jitsu," and "jujitsu" all qualify as words under the definition above. (As do "rofl" and a variety of other acronyms-an "acronym" is a "word" composed of the first letters of a string of "words," like "radar." Of course, a word needn't be pronouncable to qualify as "perfectly cromulent" under the above definition. :lfao: )

Additionally:



> Main Entry: *ju·jit·su*
> 
> Variant(s): also* ju·jut·su*
> 
> or* jiu·jit·su *\jü-&#712;jit-(&#716sü\ Function: _noun_ Etymology: Japanese _j&#363;jutsu,_ from _j&#363;_ weakness, gentleness + _jutsu_ art, skill Date: 1875 *:* an art of weaponless fighting employing holds, throws, and paralyzing blows to subdue or disable an opponent


 
Please note that the dictionary, as is its function, has notated the etymology of the *word* correctly, as well as all its _English spelling variants._ Additionally, you will note that it has an estimation of the time it came into common usage. Please also note that the definition itself is somewhat incomplete.....

The argument about which way to spell it in English is _stylistic_, not linguistic in nature, and while it might say something about the person using the word (for the record, I personally prefer _jujutsu_) to argue about which is correct "English spelling" is essentially pretty silly. "English pronunciation" might be another matter, and you might even be correct in categorizing those other spellings as "bastardizations," but that doesn't make them any less valid as *English* word: how much of the lexicon are simply "bastardizations" of German, or Latin, or Greek, or French, or Danish, or Old English?

Or even Yiddish? :lol: English is not a pure language-it's a bastardization itself, with its origins in the marriage of Germanic and Scandinavian dialects with Norman French, and a smattering of Latin thrown in,  and it's constantly evolving-from Old English to Middle English to our English, which is the same as Shakespeare's, though separated by hundreds of years, and not quite the same in the U.S., Canada, England or Australia. 

Lastly, of course, in addition to being almost completely pointless and unresolvable (spell it the way you want to, and be satisfied that you're "right" :lol: Is it just me, or does Mr. Parker remind anyone else of Tony Kehoe? :lfao: ) it distracts from the real issue at hand: what is the background of the creator of _phan ku ryu,_ which is, after all, *not* Japanese in origin?


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## TimoS

Tez3 said:


> What I'm getting at is that in martial arts here we don't talk about who our instructor trained under, or who that instructor trained under very much. That lineage isn't very impotant



I must say that I disagree with you here. From what I've seen, and I'll admit that it's not that much, as I am in Finland, but I do see people from UK, especially Shotokan practitioners (although that could be mainly because Shotokan is so popular) talk quite a lot about who they or their instructors trained under. Did they train under Kase, Enoeda, Shirai or Nakayama (just to name some famous Shotokan instructors)


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## Aiki Lee

So let's see if I can see both sides.
Parker and JCA say Jujutsu is a japanese word translated into english, and therefore "Jujitsu" and "jui-jitsu" are improper spellings because they do not accurately portray the proper way to say the word, am I understanding this right?

Arisador and others say that Jujutsu is a japanese word translated into english, but "jujitsu" and "jui-jitsu" are english words created to desribe a martial art that stems from a japanese "jujutsu" system? So while "jujutsu" is a japanese word written in english, "jujitsu" is an english word created to describe a western approach to this particular sytle of MA?

Am I following both sides, or am I missing something?


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## Chris Parker

A few last comments...



elder999 said:


> At this point, I have to politely ask that you drop it-we're not going to agree, and, while your point has merit, it is basically invalid, in that it is chiefly supported by a subjective judgement on your part-"what makes a word a word?"
> 
> I have actually asked for us to move past this on at least three separate occasions already, so, yes, I will drop it after this. But I have to make this clear, as I apparently haven't already. My point is not that "jujitsu" is not a word, but that it is not an English word. That is supported by the definition you supply, by the way, in which it is stated that "jujutsu" is a Japanese word, from both "ju" and "jutsu" (both translated correctly).
> 
> From the very excellent _Merriam Webster's English Language Technical Manual_ (that's engineerspeak for "dictionary.....as an aside, is "engineerspeak" a "word?" :lol:
> 
> "Engineerspeak"? Yeah, but I would probably hyphenate it...
> 
> Lastly, of course... it distracts from the real issue at hand: what is the background of the creator of _phan ku ryu,_ which is, after all, *not* Japanese in origin?
> 
> Maybe not, but when the origin claim is that the founder was taught "by a samurai family when he lived in Japan", and the very name of the art is incorrectly spelt, that sends up warning signs. And that was the original point of my first mentioning it. But that was only one of the points I wished to be addressed, and I would very much like to get back to the other (more relevant) questions I earlier posted.
> 
> If you read back through this thread, you may find that I have only kept this going to address questions and posts from other members. If anyone feels that I have kept this going unnecessarily, I apologise, but I sincerely wished to simply address any mis-interpretation thta may have occured.


----------



## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> A few last comments...


 

Actually, the dictionary points out the _etymology_ as being Japanese-it is, in fact, an English word, just as the word "word" is-not High German _*wort*_, not Latin _verbum_, nor Hittite(?!!) _weriya_.

More importantly, _phan ku ryu_ is said to be Lt.Col Mark A. Miles's creation, based upon whatever it was that he studied. The "mispelling" is, as I pointed out, stylistic rather than linguistic-or even phonetic, though it may be this last.


----------



## Chris Parker

And here was I thinking we were moving past this...

If I stop now, will everyone else? I'm a little tired of repeating myself here, and I'm sure everyone else is getting a little tired of reading the same arguments over and over, right?

Let's take this back to the art itself. The name was a way to examine the verasity of it's origins, which it didn't give a lot of credence. That was all. Now that we've settled that we can argue about one of the most minor points we had for 3 pages, can we get back to the real ones? What is the system really like? Which arts is it (supposedly) really based on? Is it judo and military-style jujutsu, and exactly which samurai family taught the founder? What are the main principles? And many other questions which are still awaiting answers I believe we will never see...


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## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> Let's take this back to the art itself. The name was a way to examine the verasity of it's origins, which it didn't give a lot of credence. That was all. Now that we've settled that we can argue about one of the most minor points we had for 3 pages, can we get back to the real ones? What is the system really like? Which arts is it (supposedly) really based on? Is it judo and military-style jujutsu, and exactly which samurai family taught the founder? What are the main principles? And many other questions which are still awaiting answers I believe we will never see...


 

Not to defend one way or the other, but there's not much information forthcoming on the webpage, and I ahve to wonder where you're getting the "samurai family" information-maybe I missed it?


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## TimoS

elder999 said:


> Not to defend one way or the other, but there's not much information forthcoming on the webpage, and I ahve to wonder where you're getting the "samurai family" information-maybe I missed it?



Right here



Naosuke said:


> Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan


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## Chris Parker

See above (beat me to it...)


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## elder999

TimoS said:


> Right here


 

That's hearsay, though-don't know who he is, or where he heard it, or if, in fact, he did-and we';ve gotta wonder what "as close as you can get..." actually means.

 All we can really go on is what the webpage has to say about how the style is represented, if we're going to do so fairly, anyway.


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## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> "Jujitsu" is not an English word. Just plain and simple, it is not. [...]
> Just because a word appears in an English common dictionary, that does not necessarily mean it is an "English" word.



Just to be clear...you're staking out the position that the main entries in an English dictionary are something other than English language words? From the dictionary entry for "dictionary":



> a book containing a selection of the words of a language, usually arranged alphabetically, giving information about their meanings, pronunciations, etymologies, inflected forms, etc., expressed in either the same or another language; lexicon; glossary: _a dictionary of English_



I really think that your view is untenable.

In addition to the dictionaries, I've pointed out the large difference in occurrences of jujitsu and _jujutsu_ in the NY Times. I think their style editors are pretty familiar with linguistic matters. In other major papers that I tried (like the Chicago Tribnune and the Wall Street Journal) I got a few hits for jujitsu and zero for _jujutsu_. The online Encyclopedia Britannica has an entry for jujitsu but not for _jujutsu_ (though jujutsu is given as an alternate spelling).. 

Are you really so sure that all of the English-speaking world's lexicographers, newpaper editors, and encyclopedists are wrong, but you're right? Could it be that while your reasoning seems very sound to you, the experts in the English language have a different opinion?

You've frequently asserted the correctness of your position, but I and others have repeatedly cited published and verifiable expert evidence to support the contrary. Where is your expert on the matter, apart from a friend's wife who speaks Japanese?


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## Chris Parker

Really? You're really keeping this going? Okay, one more time, but let this be it, okay?

Just for fun, I went to Websters English Dictionary, and input a few other language words which are common enough in English, including "au revoir", "bonjour", and a few others... and what do you know, these purely French words turned up in an English dictionary! They must be English too! Unless...

Oh, and your definition of a "dictionary" includes (current) lexicon, and use of the same or different language. So my claim seems to stand, I feel.

As for the large number of occurances in popular press, I'm not disputing that. When terms are first used in popular media, such as newspapers, a precedent is set which is used as the boilerplate for future use, so yes, if jujitsu was used first, it will be used in subsequent occassions. That doesn't mean it was right in the first place.

Experts in the English language are not really relevant here, as we are not (I repeat here for emphasis) NOT talking about an English word. We are talking about a martial system which is supposed to be based on teachings gained in Japan, from a Japanese teacher, which is not spelled correctly, giving rise to slight suspect feelings about the origin of the art. So they may well be experts on English, but we are talking about Japanese. Seriously, how many times have I said that jujutsu/jujitsu is simply not an English word? I thought I was pretty clear about that...

Your evidence are simply common usage issues, which go back to the original mistake, and are therefore not really convincing to me. Sorry about that. Citing popular media is not the same as citing usage from Japanese martial traditions where the term "jitsu" is used. i don't really mind if the common masses don't get it right, it would be the same as me expecting average person on the street to be able to discuss Ed Whitten's work developing M-Theory, and being disappointed if they don't get it.

As with many other things, the martial arts are  specialist area of knowledge. Within that specialist area, there are further specialisations, which we all have our own areas in. For me, that is the Japanese martial traditions. So my sources include the aforementioned Tanemura Sensei video, every single Japanese dictionary I have ever seen, each and every serious and researched Japanese martial art book I have come across, and more. As stated, Arnisador, I don't think you have a background in Japanese arts or language, so I would ask why this is such a major sticking point for you? I would think that it wouldn't worry you so much.

Oh, and finally, when it comes to Japanese terms, I will take a native-Japanese speaker over a Western newspaper any day, no matter how well-respected the publication may be.

Okay, that's over. Back on topic.

One more thing: Elder999. If we are not to take Naosuke as a reliable source (apparently being a student of the school, and the teacher in question himself), because he hasn't established himself here, and instead dismiss his comments as "hearsay", how do you propose we actually get some answers? I don't think Naosuke is going to return, but there is no reason to doubt his accuracy yet that I have seen. Oh, and I asked the same regarding the cryptic comment about "as close..." as well. Maybe one day we'll get an answer. Maybe.


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## arnisador

Chris Parker said:


> including "au revoir", "bonjour", and a few others... and what do you know, these purely French words turned up in an English dictionary! They must be English too!



Not necessarily. You just need a refresher course on using a dictionary. Let's take a look:
au revoir:
au re&#8901;voir&#8194;   &#8194;[oh ruh-vwar; Eng. oh ruh-vwahr]  Show IPA
_interjection_ _French_.
until we see each other again; good-bye for the present.

goodbye:
_interjection_
1.	farewell (a conventional expression used at parting).

The word "French" in the description of _au revoir_ indicates that the word is a French word commonly used in colloquial English. Now let's try jujitsu:
jujitsu:
_noun_
a method developed in Japan of defending oneself without the use of weapons by using the strength and weight of an adversary to disable him.

Note that it doesn't say "Japanese" where _au revoir_ had "French". It goes on to say the origin of the word is Japanese. There's a difference between a word having a foreign origin and being a foreign word. 'Japan' itself is a word of foreign origin, but it's (also) an English language word.




> so yes, if jujitsu was used first, it will be used in subsequent occassions. That doesn't mean it was right in the first place.


 
Following your logic, why is Japan still referred to as such when we now know better? Greece? Finland (_Suomi_)? And if those terms established by usage are still correct...why isn't jujitsu?



> Experts in the English language are not really relevant here[...] they may well be experts on English, but we are talking about Japanese.



No, we aren't. There isn't any dispute about how to write it in kanji. We're talking about the difference between a foreign word becoming a loanword ("a word in one language that has been borrowed from another language and usually naturalized, as _wine_, taken into Old English from Latin _vinum_, or _macho_, taken into Modern English from Spanish") and a new Romanization of a foreign word. _Jujutsu_ has been loaned and naturalized as jujitsu. It's happened. It's over. Your position is akin to pedantically referring to Denmark as Danmark on each reference because that's how the name is spelled there.





> Seriously, how many times have I said that jujutsu/jujitsu is simply not an English word?


 
Not often enough to make it true.



> As stated, Arnisador, I don't think you have a background in Japanese arts or language, so I would ask why this is such a major sticking point for you? I would think that it wouldn't worry you so much.



Thanks for your concern.


----------



## Aiki Lee

This arguement has gone from being interesting to futile, to irritating. I guess we'll never find out about Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu, but then again I never cared that much to begin with.


----------



## elder999

Chris Parker said:


> Okay, that's over. Back on topic.
> 
> One more thing: Elder999. If we are not to take Naosuke as a reliable source (apparently being a student of the school, and the teacher in question himself), because he hasn't established himself here, and instead dismiss his comments as "hearsay", how do you propose we actually get some answers? I don't think Naosuke is going to return, but there is no reason to doubt his accuracy yet that I have seen. Oh, and I asked the same regarding the cryptic comment about "as close..." as well. Maybe one day we'll get an answer. Maybe.


 

Well, the Bullshido post he mentioned links the founding to Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo, which is _intersting_, but not necessarily a fact. If it were, it might be a qualified "as close as," though I honestly don't know. 

In any case, the way to get the answers is to go to the source......


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## JadecloudAlchemist

I was looking back at Elder's post on Phan ku.

 If we take Phan Ku-Change it to Pan gu(ku) we get this Kanji/Hanzi : &#30424;&#21476;
  If this is read in Japanese it should read as Ban Ko. Japanese usually read the Chinese Kanji in a Japanese type twist or a phonetic type pronounce. Which brings up a more interesting question is there a deity in Japan who still kept his original Chinese name? If you find it let me know.


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## Chris Parker

Himura Kenshin said:


> This arguement has gone from being interesting to futile, to irritating. I guess we'll never find out about Phan Ku Ryu Jujitsu, but then again I never cared that much to begin with.


 

Agreed. Arnis, you are never going to convince me, obviously I am never going to convince you, let's leave this, shall we? All I will say is your final arguments still have a fair few flaws from my perspective (I used the Mirriam-Websters Dictionary, which listed both jujitsu/jujutsu and au revoir as nouns in English, so that follows that either au revoir is English, or that the distinction isn't made that way in all sources; a loanword is a word taken from another language and used in common vernacular, not a new word for the recieving language [English in this case]; the proper names of the various countries you mention are the English names, suitable for use in English, the alternatives you list are suitable for each countries native tongues, and are therefore not a suitable example for anargument as to how we should pronounce/spell a foreign term etc.)

My argument is simple. In Japanese, it is always jutsu, never jitsu. If learned in Japan, the correct term should be used. The original question was how legit the system sounded, this was one warning sign I mentioned. You have honestly taken this far beyond it needed to go. Again, I am more than happy to leave it at this, and let each reader decide for themselves who's judgement they wish to follow. Okay?


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## Kage-Ronin

WELL I am coming to this thread WAY late, better late than never I suppose....

Anyway I also am a student at the dojo mentioned, have been so for 3 years on and off (mostly off due to deployment schedule).

SO having said that, there were some questions about the style and history? 

I don't know as much as I would like to, but I will share what I know.


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## william_badders

Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu gets its name from when the Col. was in China during WWII. He was a prison guard to Japanese soldiers some how he made friends with one of the Japanese and they taught him there family RYU or style of Jujitsu. Col. Miles also study Judo in the 30's before he went in to the military. Col. Miles is a 3 War vet. Like others have said if you want to know about it or see if it is the real deal go and try a class Mike is one of the most humble individuals I have ever met. He teaches not for the money just for the love of the art.


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## Falconflyer

Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu. I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied. The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some. Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato and a Japanese POW. I also couldn't believe that 4 of the pages of this thread were arguing over a "u" vs. an "i". Really? Chris Parker, you did make a great comment though regarding one of the other Phan Ku student's posts. The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ??? How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info. All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares! I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay) Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all. Thank you for your time.


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## elder999

Falconflyer said:


> . The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ??? How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info..


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## Falconflyer

Hey man, when you post on the internet, it's there forever, for all too see.  No statute of limitations.  Besides, if these posts are not to be commented on any longer, why are they still left on the site and not deleted after a certain period of time?  If they're still here, and the "reply" feature is still active, it's fair game.


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## Chris Parker

Hi Falconflyer,



Falconflyer said:


> Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu.
> 
> Cool, good to have you aboard.
> 
> I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied. The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some.
> 
> Well, the concerns were not overtly about the effectiveness of the system itself, they were more that the origin story seemed to have more than a few holes in it, including the unusual name, and a number of aspects that don't gel with anyone that knows about Japanese culture. You may notice that when Naosuke put down which site had a good review, it was censored on our site here. The reason is that that particular site tends to lead to rather too many headaches, including legal threats and so forth, so that tends to have us not really take it as definitive.
> 
> Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato and a Japanese POW.
> 
> If he did study under Masato, the timing would indicate the term "judo" rather than "jujutsu", and it would seem highly unlikely that a Japanese POW would teach one of his captors. To the Japanese way of thinking being captured is the greatest humiliation that they can suffer, so they expect to be treated incredibly badly (which also explains their treatment of POW soldiers under the Japanese), and would not be wanting to "help" the enemy. There's more, but I think the general idea is there. This claim isn't impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely. Would there be any evidence that can be presented, photos, documentation etc?
> 
> I also couldn't believe that 4 of the pages of this thread were arguing over a "u" vs. an "i". Really?
> 
> Er, yes. Really. Arnisador asked about "jitsu" versus "jutsu" back in 2002, was told the correct pronunciation, and has argued it since then. Don't really know why....
> 
> Chris Parker, you did make a great comment though regarding one of the other Phan Ku student's posts. The guy took the time to post an answer to the original question, and he was blown off as unreliable by elder999. ???
> 
> Well, in Elders defence, Naosuke came on, made two posts, and then never returned to answer any questions that he said he was here to clear up. His entire history on this site consists of those two posts on this thread, leaving after I posted a responce. So if Elder was going to "blow him off as unreliable", this could be one reason. But that's a supposition on my part, really. I just didn't think Naosuke had given us enough to know if he was reliable or not yet, and it seems like he never will. Pity.
> 
> How do I know that anything elder999 says is reliable on this site?? He posts a lot? No, I just trust that he would take the time to come on this site to provide reliable info.
> 
> We have features such as the "rep" system (reputation, the little green [or sometimes red] dots), as well as the "Thanks" system. So while not perfect, you can get a sense of how members are thought of here, and an unknown quantity (including yourself at this point) is just that: unknown. But an established member, whether you know them or not, is known.
> 
> But so you know, in cases such as this it is not uncommon for individuals to sign up under a variety of names to post positive reviews/comments giving the impression of a number of people. This has extended up the instructors/heads of systems, as well as devotees of certain less-than-credible groups and teachers. So until Naosuke became a known quantity, he would be subject to this very scrutiny. This is the same for everyone here, by the way, unless you already had an established reputation from another site or otherwise.
> 
> All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares!
> 
> Well, the aspect of caring is less than recognising the message that such a name gives. On one hand we are presented with a man who is US Military, studied a Japanese system (Judo), ostensibly learnt another system (also Japanese), and then gave his expression of this a name which is Chinese (Phan Ku) combined with Japanese terminology (Ryu, Jujutsu). That is typically an indication of less-than-legitimate systems as there is nothing in the given history that explains this name.
> 
> To give you an idea, it's like claiming you learnt under the great French chefs, then naming your "French"-style restaurant Le Pizza Shoppe. Not somewhere I would expect to get great French cuisine.
> 
> I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay)
> 
> Friendly word here: This could be taken as a challenge. Such things are not kindly looked on. Just so you know.
> 
> Really, the tone here has gotten a little aggressive, and you seem to be missing the point. The issue was never "is Phan Ku Ryu an effective system?", it was more asking about the legitimacy of the history. I wouldn't be surprised in the least to find that your technical side of things is good (particularly if it is based on older Judo training forms, which is looking more and more like the case), but that doesn't explain the odd name and certain gaps in the story.
> 
> Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all.
> 
> These short, choppy sentences actually say there is ill will here, or at least aggression (most likely at an assumed slight or offence), just so you know. Again, you are still an unknown quantity here, you my be one of the most knowledgable people on this board, but we don't know that yet. As we continue, we will learn more about you, and you will learn about us, and hopefully you will see that such a tact is not necessary, nor indeed well advised, or even realistic (I live in Melbourne, Australia, so I'm hardly likely to take up your "invitation", such as it is).
> 
> I never quite get why people get all bent out of shape when their history is called into question like this, and they always resort to "Well, it works, and if you don't believe that, come and try us, see if you can beat us!". That really isn't the issue here at all. I might turn up and beat everyone you have there, it doesn't prove or disprove the history issues. I might turn up and get beaten by everyone there, it doesn't prove or disprove the history issues. And hiding behind "The Col. was a 3 War Veteran" really isn't a defence, as that is completely removed from the issue (I know that wasn't you, but it has come up in this thread). The implication is "well, I respect him, therefore I believe what he tells me, so you should too", when there have been many veterans (and claimed "veterans") who have been less-than-factual in their claims.
> 
> But to be completely accurate here, non-legit systems can be highly effective, and a range of traditional systems can be far less practical, particularly in this day and age, so to say that the "proof is in the pudding" and that someone kicking someones *** will settle any debate is missing the issue itself. All that shows is the technical side of the system, not anything to do with legitimacy issues.
> 
> Thank you for your time.
> 
> Thanks for joining in.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar

Chris Parker said:


> Hi Falconflyer,


 
How do you know the mind of every single japanese POW durring the war?

 You know generalizations based on history and your time with the Japanese but you were not there with the founder of this Ryu so you don't know. You can guess but its just that a guess. (You can also rightly or wrongly guess the founder is full of it.)

 Maybe the prisoner in question was not a sheeple? Maybe after expecting to be tortured and being treated fairly he kind of liked Americans?

  Maybe he was educated in the US or Europe before the war and allready had adopted some western ways of thinking?

  Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.

 And not every Japanese was a Judoka, maybe he had a family style and he called it Jujutsu? Maybe he did Judo, but like Maeda was more into the combative aspects of Judo so therefore called what e was teaching Jujutsu because he was not teaching codifeid Judo or Judo philosphy?

 You do not know, you are assuming and when you do that about someone elses art while in an active conversation with them, then you need to tread lightly.

 As for the challenge. It was done with respect and without threats and I see the posters point. Stop talking and come see and feel.

 Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.

 Sure we spell it Jujutsu out of respect for the Japanese orgins and because we know Jiu Jitsu is a basterdization. Our art has enough old school Japanese technique still in it that we feel Jujutsu is still the proper term for us.  We call our core art Armatura Jujutsu we take the 
Traditional and combat Jujutsu we studied under our former Ryu, a mix of the following -Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai (Japan) Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu (USA)  a mix of 2 Koryu's (Japan), Miyama Ryu Jujutsu (USA) Aikido and Judo (Japan) along with H2H from other sources. We also add simple CQC and Pekiti Tarsia into our curriculem. We though of just calling it Armatura or whatever but it's still mostly Jujutsu. If I called it Armatura then I'd get flak like "He's doing modified Jujutsu there." or "That was stairt out of Daito Ryu." We collessed our system from our studies but we did not invent anything, most who found schools and new styles are not really inventing anything from scratch anyways. This way the name is as honest as one can get and not be laime. " We study Ultradeth!." We study Daito Icho Yama Ryu- Woodbridge Kai Aiki Jujutsu." EECK!

 Simply Armatura Jujutsu.

 All the same I dont care that the guy down the road spells it Jiu Jitsu, it's his deal and he is good at what he does.

 I can see why you are so hyper technical Chris, but you need to leave some room for the extrapulations and honest mistakes of others.

 Hell the Japanese get confussed themselves.


----------



## elder999

Falconflyer said:


> Like a few others who have commented on this most lenghty of threads, I too am a student of Phan Ku Ryu. I was amused by the fact that even after another website did a favorable review of our style, many were still not satisfied.


 
I didn't do that



Falconflyer said:


> The other website was childishly disparaged and what it claimed about our roots were still held in doubt by some. Yes, the Colonel studied under Masato



To which I replied could cover the whole "as close as it gets to a samurai family." I also said it was interesting-never said it wasn't true, or couldn't be-just that we didn't know one way or the other, based on something someone said on another site, or  _someone we don't know and could even be the Colonel himself_ posting here.

Chris's statements about the rep system aside, if you look inmy profile. you'll see my real name-everyone here who wants to knows exactly who I am, and where I came from. They also know that I don't care, as some others do, whether or not an art was created in this century, the last one, or last week-it does matter that the founder's story and credentials can be verified, to me, anyway. In Miyama ryu jujutsu we have pictures of the founder studying with the people he says he studied with, certificates from those people, and, as in the case of your art, more than 40 years of teaching the same art in the same place. In fact, I posted this:




elder999 said:


> I don't know that they were "disparaging," and not merely pointing out the difference between what they do and what some people might expect-though, if they're modeling their training on Japanese jujutsu training, saying that they have no "katas" is probably somewhat misleading. As for legitimacy, they say up front that the art is the creation of a Lt. Col. Mark A Miles. This doesn't mean that they're not teaching something useful, and it doesn't mean that they are-the only way to find that out is, as Tez said, to check it out yourself. It in _does_ mean that they're probably not connected to any Japanese jujutsu in any but the most marginal of ways, and probably not connected with any historically "legitimate" martial arts governing body or style.
> 
> It also means that they've been pretty honest so far: no secret lineage, no mystery.......


 
ALmost all in your defense, on the first page: for all to see for all time, as you pointed out, or at least until there's a crash or Bob purges threads...




Falconflyer said:


> All that aside, yes, the Colonel gave us an unusual name, but who the heck cares!


 
Well, names mean something. People care. In the end, maybe it doesn't mean much-maybe it means a lot. 



Falconflyer said:


> I invite any of one of you internet grand masters who come from styles that have the correct letter in the name of their style, and whose styles were reviewed favorably by the correct website, to stop by the Corpus Christi school (Asian Academy of Martial Arts, Sunrise Mall, second floor), and step out onto the mat with John, Paul, or Merell. (the other students who have posted on this thread are from Mike's school across the bay) Names and lineage aside, the proof is in the pudding. This is a serious invitation. Please introduce yourself. No ill will here. I would like to meet you. Perhaps you'll kick our *** and this debate will be settled once and for all. Thank you for your time.


 

This is just silly, and possibly a violation of the rules here. THanks for joining in, though....


----------



## MJS

What I always find interesting, is when a topic is started on an art, and suddenly, a bunch of 'defenders of the art' pop onto the forum.  This is fine, however, those folks need to adhere to the forum rules.  

FalconFlyer,

You are new to the forum, and agreed to the forum rules, which can be found here. Take note of sec. 1.8. I suggest that you re-read them, as part of your last post, could be taken as a challenge, which results in a ban here.  If that is not how you intended your post, then perhaps you should be a bit more cautious with your wording.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## frank raud

Naosuke said:


> OK everybody... I joined this forum just to answer this thread. I study at the PhanKu Ryu Dojo in Aransas (the one on the website). It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu. We aren't trying to offend when we say we don't do kata, we just want to be straight forward with our style of learning. All jujitsu schools are this way, guys. As for the Chinese/Japanese name, i'm not really sure... just a funny name i guess... Anyhoo, this is a credible style. Sensei Mike is one HARDCORE mofo. Look up the review of our school on **************


 

Oddly enough, their website, which gives very little info, says Col. Miles started at the Jiu jitsu Institute of Chicago in 1938, which is the first year that club opened. Know what they  teach at the Jiu Jitsu institute?

Judo and Jiu Jitsu (their spelling) http://www.jjichicago.com/


----------



## Falconflyer

MJS said:


> What I always find interesting, is when a topic is started on an art, and suddenly, a bunch of 'defenders of the art' pop onto the forum. This is fine, however, those folks need to adhere to the forum rules.
> 
> FalconFlyer,
> 
> You are new to the forum, and agreed to the forum rules, which can be found here. Take note of sec. 1.8. I suggest that you re-read them, as part of your last post, could be taken as a challenge, which results in a ban here. If that is not how you intended your post, then perhaps you should be a bit more cautious with your wording.
> 
> MJS
> MT Asst. Admin


 
This is great fun! I'm beginning to see why some of you have a billion posts. Anyway...

If a thread is started asking about an unknown art, who would you then suggest "pop onto the forum" to answer questions about said art? The first and most logical answer that pops into my head is people who study that style and can answer the questions about it. Doesn't seem particularly interesting to me. Seems like the obvious result.

As far as the "challenge", I can't control how you interpret it. I would assume that if you came to our class to learn about our style, you would participate in the class. That would involve stepping out onto the mat because that's where we pratice; on a mat (several actually). But maybe you would just sit on the side and watch, I don't know. I thought I was pretty polite, and so did Julius Ceasar (thanks Dude!). I'll watch my wording in the future so as not to skirt the fine line between invite and challenge.


----------



## Falconflyer

elder999 said:


> .
> 
> Chris's statements about the rep system aside, if you look inmy profile. you'll see my real name-everyone here who wants to knows exactly who I am, and where I came from.
> 
> 
> If you reread my original post,you'll see I wasn't questioning your credentials. I was actually defending them. My point was that if someone takes the time to post something on here, my first assumption is that they're here to help, and not deceive. That's whether that have 14,000 posts on here or 6. There's a real good chance that people will happen upon these threads in the course of a Google search, actually knows something about what is being discusses in the thread, and offer their knowledge (as in my case). And that's probably how the other guys ended up here too. That's all.


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Gaius,

I'll answer your comments, if you don't mind, and use them to answer a few other things...



Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> How do you know the mind of every single japanese POW durring the war?
> 
> You know generalizations based on history and your time with the Japanese but you were not there with the founder of this Ryu so you don't know. You can guess but its just that a guess. (You can also rightly or wrongly guess the founder is full of it.)
> 
> No, you know I don't know the mind of every POW, however I do have some little understanding on the Japanese mind set. And that has some bearing on the story being presented here.
> 
> Maybe the prisoner in question was not a sheeple? Maybe after expecting to be tortured and being treated fairly he kind of liked Americans?
> 
> Maybe he was educated in the US or Europe before the war and allready had adopted some western ways of thinking?
> 
> Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.
> 
> Well, this is not impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely (in fact I believe I actually said that exact thing: "This claim isn't impossible, but it is incredibly unlikely. Would there be any evidence that can be presented, photos, documentation etc?"
> 
> To let you know, though, the most probable/common way a Japanese POW would see ther captor who did not treat them badly would be with no respect. If, however, we are talking more about some of the internment camps in the US during WWII, then the story has more likelihood. But that is not the way it's presented here.
> 
> In fact, the story has so far gone from "a fighting Art based on sound Jujitsu principles and sixty-five years of real life study and development by founder Lt.Col Mark A. Miles, for use on the battlefield and later adapted for civilian use" to " It is Japanese jujitsu, Col. Miles developed his own "style" when fighting in WWII (i believe), but was originally taught by a "samurai" family (as close as u can get these days) while living in Japan. His father also studied traditional jujitsu" (bringing in a "samurai" family decades after the samurai as a class were abolished while in Japan) to "the Bullshido post he mentioned links the founding to Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo" (which is taking us away from the "samurai"family in Japan, or jujutsu, and into Judo) to "Phan-ku Ryu Jujitsu gets its name from when the Col. was in China during WWII. He was a prison guard to Japanese soldiers some how he made friends with one of the Japanese and they taught him there family RYU or style of Jujitsu. Col. Miles also study Judo in the 30's before he went in to the military" (here we bring in another country, and get a possible explaination for the mixed name of the system, but also contradicts the story we already have) to "Oddly enough, their website, which gives very little info, says Col. Miles started at the Jiu jitsu Institute of Chicago in 1938, which is the first year that club opened. Know what they teach at the Jiu Jitsu institute?" Now here's where it gets a little more confusing... The Jiu Jitsu institute mentions "traditional jiujitsu" (again their spelling...), although every single reference is to Judo, specifically Kodokan Judo. And the head instructor there was Masato Tamura, not Masato Naruse of Kosen Judo. Hmm.
> 
> My big question is simple here. We have names for the Judo lineage (although that seems to change depending on who we listen to...), but this Japanese POW (who may have been in Japan or China....) hasn't been given any name, nor a name given to his system. And the Japanese really don't just have generic "oh, this is just my family style" martial arts, they are always named, and typically well-documented. I understand that if this was learnt from a POW there may not have been much documentation for Col. Miles, however the system he learnt should be able to be traced in Japan. The only ones that can't have been bogus, frankly.
> 
> So, do we have a name for the POW or the system he taught?
> 
> 
> 
> And not every Japanese was a Judoka, maybe he had a family style and he called it Jujutsu? Maybe he did Judo, but like Maeda was more into the combative aspects of Judo so therefore called what e was teaching Jujutsu because he was not teaching codifeid Judo or Judo philosphy?
> 
> Well, first off it really should be recognised that Judo really is just another form of jujutsu... Maeda, from memory, was part of the Kosen Judo movement (pretty literally "High School Judo"), which had a greater emphasis on ground fighting and competition. As for not every Japanese was a Judoka, never suggested they were. Just that every bit of evidence we have seen so far is that Col. Miles probably learnt Judo, and maybe a timy smattering of something else.
> 
> You do not know, you are assuming and when you do that about someone elses art while in an active conversation with them, then you need to tread lightly.
> 
> Oh, this was very light. I had friendly words, explainations, the whole thing. But there are also questions that have yet to be answered.
> 
> As for the challenge. It was done with respect and without threats and I see the posters point. Stop talking and come see and feel.
> 
> When phrases such as "any of you internet grandmasters with the correct letters in your name.." etc are used, that is a veiled hostility, and is read as such. It is not respect, it is anger and pride. It is also highly impractical when dealing with an internet-based readership and membership.
> 
> Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.
> 
> Yes, and I believe this is pretty much what I said as well. There is no comment (either for or against) the effectiveness of the system's teachings itself (which is also why the challenge to "come and see for yourself" isn't really relevant), just in the historical issues and odd choice of naming. To quote myself, as you may have missed this (although you were responding to this post itself): But to be completely accurate here, non-legit systems can be highly effective, and a range of traditional systems can be far less practical, particularly in this day and age, so to say that the "proof is in the pudding" and that someone kicking someones *** will settle any debate is missing the issue itself. All that shows is the technical side of the system, not anything to do with legitimacy issues.
> 
> Sure we spell it Jujutsu out of respect for the Japanese orgins and because we know Jiu Jitsu is a basterdization. Our art has enough old school Japanese technique still in it that we feel Jujutsu is still the proper term for us. We call our core art Armatura Jujutsu we take the
> Traditional and combat Jujutsu we studied under our former Ryu, a mix of the following -Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu Kodo Kai (Japan) Icho Yama Ryu Aiki Jujutsu (USA) a mix of 2 Koryu's (Japan), Miyama Ryu Jujutsu (USA) Aikido and Judo (Japan) along with H2H from other sources. We also add simple CQC and Pekiti Tarsia into our curriculem. We though of just calling it Armatura or whatever but it's still mostly Jujutsu. If I called it Armatura then I'd get flak like "He's doing modified Jujutsu there." or "That was stairt out of Daito Ryu." We collessed our system from our studies but we did not invent anything, most who found schools and new styles are not really inventing anything from scratch anyways. This way the name is as honest as one can get and not be laime. " We study Ultradeth!." We study Daito Icho Yama Ryu- Woodbridge Kai Aiki Jujutsu." EECK!
> 
> Okay, not really sure how you've turned this into a personal attack on your system here... But so you know, I'd probably be fairly skeptical of the way this is described here as well. Taking a range of disparate sources like this and putting them together is kind of like taking all your favourite scenes out of your favourite films and putting them together... then wondering why the film makes no sense.
> 
> Gandalf and Eomer ride down the hill to Helm's Deep to come to the aid of Aragorn, turing the tide long enough for Han Solo to swoop down in the Milennium Falcon, blowing Tie Fighters out of Luke's way and sending Vader spinning off into space. However at the celebrations that night, the party is interupted by the Joker asking if anyone knows how he got his scars, and where's Harvey Dent? Hmm, doesn't make a lot of sense....
> 
> The mention of two Koryu systems is a little odd as well, the study of Koryu tends to not lend itself to such a set up. Which ones, out of interest?
> 
> Simply Armatura Jujutsu.
> 
> All the same I dont care that the guy down the road spells it Jiu Jitsu, it's his deal and he is good at what he does.
> 
> I can see why you are so hyper technical Chris, but you need to leave some room for the extrapulations and honest mistakes of others.
> 
> I'm always more than happy to allow for errors, provided room is also allowed for the errors to be corrected, in myself as well as others.
> 
> Hell the Japanese get confussed themselves.
> 
> In what, might I ask?


----------



## Bruno@MT

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> Maybe he saw the guard practice what he knew, made a suggestion and then a training exchange was born.



Do you have first hand experience Japanese culture? Because the people whom I know with first hand experience, agree that this sort of thing only happens in western novels or hollywood movies.



Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> Because this school might teach Jujutsu better than a school with nice clean lines of lineage. I've trained with people with nice, proper lineages that could not fight.


 
Chris already indicated that this discussion was not about whether the training was effective or not. The discussion was about whether the *claimed* lineage checks out.

Given that it is culturally very unlikely that he would have been trained like that, and that 'Phan' is not Japanese and Phan Ku Ryu is not a known Japanese style, there is at least good reason to have strong doubts.

This is like saying Dux Ryu is legit because their fighters can fight.


----------



## MJS

Falconflyer said:


> This is great fun! I'm beginning to see why some of you have a billion posts. Anyway...


 
A billion posts?  Hardly.  I've been a member here for 7yrs.  I do try to make a certain number of posts each week, to contribute to the forum.  However, I'm not quite following your comment here.  If you're referring to the note/warning that I posted, well, that is my job here...to police the forum.  The rules are in place for everyone.  If someone is having a hard time following them, they will most likely either have to change their ways or they will soon find themselves removed from the forum.  



> If a thread is started asking about an unknown art, who would you then suggest "pop onto the forum" to answer questions about said art? The first and most logical answer that pops into my head is people who study that style and can answer the questions about it. Doesn't seem particularly interesting to me. Seems like the obvious result.


 
Let me clarify.  Many times, when a thread is started on a subject that isn't well known, and if the comments are not always positive, many times, students of that art, will join up, for the sole purpose of causing trouble.  Its one thing if someone joins up to clarify something, and does it in a respectful fashion, but its another if someone is joining to cause issues.  This forum is open to anyone, however, we do have rules in place, and do require everyone to follow them.  



> As far as the "challenge", I can't control how you interpret it. I would assume that if you came to our class to learn about our style, you would participate in the class. That would involve stepping out onto the mat because that's where we pratice; on a mat (several actually). But maybe you would just sit on the side and watch, I don't know. I thought I was pretty polite, and so did Julius Ceasar (thanks Dude!). I'll watch my wording in the future so as not to skirt the fine line between invite and challenge.


 
Actually, you can control how people interpret it, by being sure to pick your wording carefully.  That post in question was reported to the mods here, it was reviewed and decided that it was not a challenge.


----------



## Gaius Julius Caesar

MJS said:


> A billion posts? Hardly. I've been a member here for 7yrs. I do try to make a certain number of posts each week, to contribute to the forum. However, I'm not quite following your comment here. If you're referring to the note/warning that I posted, well, that is my job here...to police the forum. The rules are in place for everyone. If someone is having a hard time following them, they will most likely either have to change their ways or they will soon find themselves removed from the forum.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me clarify. Many times, when a thread is started on a subject that isn't well known, and if the comments are not always positive, many times, students of that art, will join up, for the sole purpose of causing trouble. Its one thing if someone joins up to clarify something, and does it in a respectful fashion, but its another if someone is joining to cause issues. This forum is open to anyone, however, we do have rules in place, and do require everyone to follow them.
> 
> 
> 
> Actually, you can control how people interpret it, by being sure to pick your wording carefully. That post in question was reported to the mods here, it was reviewed and decided that it was not a challenge.


 

 He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.

 I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.

 I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
 There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)

 Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.

 Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.
And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
 Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.


----------



## MJS

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.
> 
> I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.
> 
> I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
> There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)
> 
> Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.
> 
> Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.
> And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
> Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.


 
Sir,

The forum rules here are not up for debate, nor am I going to debate them with you.  However, since you addressed my mild warning, let me clarify something.

The post in question was reported, due to the possibility of it being a challenge.  Here are the rules:

*"1.8 Threats, Racism, Sexism, and Challenges:


*Messages that are openly hostile, defamatory, sexual, vulgar, or harassing, will not be tolerated, and may be in violation of the law. Threads or replies promoting or expressing intolerant views towards any group (race, religion, sexual preference, interracial couples, etc.) will not be tolerated. 

No "physical challenge" posts are allowed. If there is a threat or physical challenge, real or perceived, issued, the person making said threat will be immediately banned from this board with no warning or recourse."

As I said, this was reviewed by the forum mods, and it was decided that it was not a challenge.  I suggested to the OP of that post, to pick his words carefully.  Anyone who joins this forum, agrees to the rules.  If they fail to read them or choose to ignore them, that is not my issue.  Its something everyone, staff included, agreed to.  Failure to adhere to them, will result in eventual suspension and/or removal of their account.  Anyone who disagrees with the rules, is free to go elsewhere, if they're not happy.  

As for the rest of your post, I have no desire to train with that person, or anyone else in that art.  I'm more than happy with what I currently do.  I also train more than 2hrs a week, so your veiled personal shots, should stop.

Now, before the thread gets any further sidetracked or locked altogether, which will be the next step, I suggest everyone return to the original topic at hand.

MJS
MT Asst. Admin


----------



## Chris Parker

Hi Gaius, 

I'm going to try this once more. This has been said by myself at least a few times, and by others as well, but maybe if I put it directly against your words you will understand what I'm saying here.



Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> He was polite, he was just inviting those who know so much about his art to come train it. Being a Martial art and maybe even more combative than many of the half dead or reconstructed arts everyone is so concerned with being linked to here.
> 
> It has been remarked that lal communication is defined not by intention, but by the interpretation. But for the record, the aspects of FalconFlyers' comments that did not ring true as "polite" to me (although not entirely "rude" either... and, no, I'm not the one who reported the post) included comments such as "any of you internet grandmasters who have the correct letter in your names" which implies that he feels we are "keyboard warriors" (in other words, not really skilled in the arts) and the comment about the correct letters is a backhanded comment along the same ideas, the short, choppy wording ("This is a serious invitation. I'd like to meet you." etc) followed by the aggressively defensive responce to Elder's post.
> 
> As to the "half dead and reconstructed arts that everyone is so concerned with being linked to here", I really don't know what on earth you mean? We're really just trying to understand the origins of this system, as the stories we've been getting have been confusing, to say the least. If it's modern, I don't think anyone has an issue, but the links to old Japanese Samurai family traditional jujutsu (without any names) comes across as a bit suspicious.
> 
> I think half of you are just all huffy because he did the nice way of saying "Put up or shut up." So agree to dissagree or go on down and train with the man.
> 
> Again, not the issue. Nor practical or realistic for many people.
> 
> I'd be amazed if half of the posters here trained more than 2 hours a week and I'd be amazed if a quarter of them could actually fight.
> There are some great martial artist and dedicated artist on this board both in od school systems and modern ones. But we have alot of Martial Nerds, folks with big heads but I bet dont have the abiltiy to fight of a Smurf. (Then again those little blue basterds can get under your center and...?)
> 
> Is this a clever way of not naming names but accusing at the same time? Nice.... not sure what you're basing it on, though, and, one more time, we are not focusing on the combat techniques/effectiveness, or anything similar, the discussion has been on the history of the system (hence the invite being rather redundant).
> 
> Yes, lineage is important for historical reasons but it's not to important to results. One of the best things about MMA, Krav Maga and CQC is it shows outside people you don't have to suck up to some Asian master for years to learn how to fight. You dont need premission from someone across the World to start a school and get on with training. The real worth is what kind of students you put out.
> 
> We are not talking about "results" as you put it. We are discussing the history and origins of the system. Okay? Not the technical side of things, the historical. Got it? Good.
> 
> Intent in training trumps old dead Samurai scrolls anyday.
> 
> Every single Koryu teacher I have ever heard of talks about the training being all about the intent/mind set of the particular ryu, rather than the techniques. I don't think you have really understood them at all, honestly, but not a lot of people do really.
> 
> And I say that as someone who did Daito Ryu Kodo Kai for 12 years and had to hear all the "Well he was not really..""He never learned from..." "This is the true..."
> Hey got some great techniques, developed better sensativity and a bettr understanding of internal JJ but I never cared beyoned that.
> 
> And that's great, wonderful, happy for you, but I don't see what it has to do with the discussion of the origins of Phan Ku Ryu at all. You seem to have again taken personal offence (by associating this thread with your own training and organisation, if I was to hazard a guess...) where it really has no place. Sorry.


----------



## Tanaka

I think Chris Parker is just trying to find out the lineage of the Phan Ku Ryu. So why are all these guys doing all this? There's no need for the telling him to come train or harsh defenses. 
I've been reading this myself, since I was also interested in knowing Phan Ku Ryu lineage in regards to being a Japanese jujutsu system. And so far I agree with a lot of the points Chris Parker has made. 

Hes not saying phan ku ryu system is a bad system.
He just wants to know how its a Japanese Jujutsu system?
Where can we go to find out the lineage of Phan Ku Ryu school?


----------



## Kage-Ronin

Again coming into this discussion late......

I have moved to another state since my last post and am attending school full time, however i do keep in loose contact with the Phan Ku organization.

And have some less than satisifying news for inquiring minds.

I'm afraid that any information concerning the P.O.W that the Colonel trained with and his family's Ryu may never come to light.

Reason being is that the Colonel himself is in a very bad way with cancer and he is in a nursing home. (I won't and can't comment on his mental state at this point, so don't ask)

Any further questions should probably be directed to the following website:

http://www.phan-ku.com/contact.html


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