# Seishin teki kyoyo



## Senin

I wonder how current students of ninjutsu see  Seishinteki kyoyo.  How is it practiced or obtained in modern ninjutsu studies?

Or is it even practiced?


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## Cryozombie

Senin said:
			
		

> I wonder how current students of ninjutsu see Seishinteki kyoyo. How is it practiced or obtained in modern ninjutsu studies?
> 
> Or is it even practiced?


 Call me stupid... but what is that exactly?

 The whole harmony with nature by understanding your place in the universe thing?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"


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## MisterMike

> ...refinement of one's spirit is known in Japanese as _seishinteki kyoyo._


http://www.genbukan.org/Amatsu_Tatara_Martial_Art_and_/Genbukan_Ninpo_Bugei/Genbukan2/body_genbukan2.html


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## heretic888

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"



Nice!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol:


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## Shizen Shigoku

_chi haya buru kami no oshie wa tokoshie ni tadashikii kokoro mi o mamoruran_

 - loose translation -

 "Be a good person and you'll make less enemies."


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## Cryozombie

Nimravus said:
			
		

> I asked the same thing to an instructor about four years ago. He replied "so you think I'm being rude, arrogant and obnoxious?"


That seems like a very zen answer, especially considering I dont know what it means.


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## Senin

Based on this, would it be safe to assume that the spiritual, mental aspects aren't stressed quite as much as, say the fighting skills, for example?

How much meditation is involved in modern day ninjutsu?

Thanks for the responses.


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## kakuma

Hatsumi Sensei has said on several occasions that training is a form meditation. Therefore, the buddhist aspects of meditation are unnecessary.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Technopunk said:
			
		

> That seems like a very zen answer, especially considering I dont know what it means.


Well, the guy in question was the same one who once grabbed a guy by his hair and belt and threw him head first into the wall for being a jerk to the people he trained with...on the other hand, his shuto is also the reason a friend of mine is no longer able to tilt her head as far to the left as she used to be able to.
Besides, he's into ARMA nowadays.

Anyway, my experience is that those who talk a lot about spiritual refinement and enlightenment are usually those who have understood it the least.


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## heretic888

The following is from a post by Ben Cole pertaining to the subject:



			
				Ben Cole said:
			
		

> ON MEDITATION
> 
> Some teachers teach meditation to their students, but this is usually something they acquired from elsewhere. Soke does not teach meditation nor encourage it. "Just do Budo," he says, "and it will all come together."
> 
> Budo is moving meditation. In time, you gain the state of "no-mind," which is what people are sitting on their butts trying to achieve. In time, you also gain "ki" (for those of you who believe in it), which allows you to use "kiai" (true kiai, not the grunting of a base Karateka) and "kihaku." Both kiai and kihaku are part of Soke's teachings, but you still don't see people running around in class kiai-ing all the time. Why? Because that is a crass way to learn this stuff. If you just do Budo, everything else will come....
> 
> A true kiai should feel natural. It just kinda comes out. People may feel uncomfortable when it happens (thinking others might believe they are trying to make Taijutsu into Karate), but a truly skilled teacher will recognize the kiai (if it is natural) for what it is. I personally think it is a step in one's evolution as a martial artist.
> 
> Having kiai just naturally come out can be a dangerous thing though. So over time, you need to learn to control them. You don't want to risk having them come out at the wrong time. This is no different than learning to turn your "shinkengata" on and off. One second you are standing there talking with a friend, the next second you are in a fight. And then, as soon as the fight is over, you need to be able to "turn it off."
> 
> This type of training is very important. That is why I think it is important to NOT train an entire session "turned on." You cannot live life being "on" the entire time. You will frighten people around you. Instead, you need to be "invisible"--only "turning on" when you need to make a point (frighten away an attacker, reach a large audience during a speech, etc.)
> 
> During training, you need to train intensely during the time with your partner, then turn immediately carefree when your teacher is showing a technique or speaking. In fact, I think it is important for a teacher to break the intensity of the paired students by talking, telling stories, explaining things, telling jokes, whatever. People tend to get too "wound up" thinking, "If I don't train intensely, I will never get good." In fact, if you always train intensely, you will NEVER get good in my opinion.
> 
> A teacher who interrupts class, just when you are "getting into the technique" is not a bad teacher. In fact, it is a sign of a very good teacher who is trying to teach you a skill set without you knowing it.
> 
> If you train properly, these skills of kiai and shinkengata will begin to manifest. No need to do anything more than that.
> 
> -ben



The entire discussion thread can be found here.

Laterz  :asian:


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

My usual response to that kind of thinking is another question - do we know for a fact that anyone has actually wound up being a proficient taijutsu exponent by training the way it is usually done in Honbu these days? Especially, during the warring states period? This is not intended as an attack on said gentleman or his opinions, just something I've been contemplating for a long time. I'm not saying you SHOULD walk around feeling like Duke Nukem all the time, but it has been said here before - if you sacrifice basics for the sake of flow, you will not become skilled at any of them.


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## Senin

Wow.  I find it ironic that the first pillar, Seishin Teki Kyoko, of the Togakure-ryû school of ninjutsu is virtually unheard of here.  It is as if it doesn't exist.  Then i find troubling the theory of.... just do good practice and it will come.  It is not a sub-section of taijutsu.  It is actually the FIRST of the basics 18 skills.   Do you mean that it is not really practiced?


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## heretic888

I have some counter-questions for you, Senin:

Do you think people are only doing kiai when they're shouting?

Is a Zen monk only learning mushin when he's practicing zazen?

Are you only practicing martial arts when you're fighting??

Things aren't black and white.


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## Senin

Nope.

And questions for you:

Can a boxer learn to box by only meditating?
Can a swordsman learn the sword by only contemplating it?

Since Seishin teki kyoyo is such a pillar of the art, if it is not openly taught, I can't help but think that this is one aspect that Soke is holding a bit back on.  After all, I am sure that we call all agree that Soke is not totally forthcoming on all aspects of his art with absolutely everyone.   Bits are being reserved.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

It appears that you've still not gotten out of your Stephen Hayes/80's phase, Senin. It'll go away soon enough.


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## ShaneLayton

Senin said:
			
		

> After all, I am sure that we call all agree that Soke is not totally forthcoming on all aspects of his art with absolutely everyone. Bits are being reserved.


If this is true then I am glad. I am already overwhelmed by what he has taught. I would rather train than contemplate the "secrets" that Soke has yet to reveal. I am still trying to get good at san shin no gata and kihon happo!


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## Senin

I absolutely agree.  Of course he would hold back some special information for  his special shihan.  The rest of us get the base course.


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## Shizen Shigoku

What do you mean by "special?"


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## MisterMike

:idunno:


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## Don Roley

Senin said:
			
		

> I absolutely agree.  Of course he would hold back some special information for  his special shihan.  The rest of us get the base course.



How can you be so sure of that? I think it is not too much to say that I have at least ten times your knowledge and experience in ninjutsu. And yet I would hesitate to say something like that with the same level of certainty you have.

Have you ever heard of the Japanese idea of the students _stealing_ the lessons from the teacher? The teacher does not do a lot of detailed explination, the students are expected to view what he does and pick up the details themselves. So if we are talking about how to live you life, maybe we should be taking a look at how Hatsumi lives his life.

Also, take into account the subject matter and maybe you might think that the idea of not laying things out too clearly is very valid in this case. As much as I love the Bujinkan and the obstacles I have overcome to train here in Japan, if _anyone_ started trying to dictate _how to think_ to me I would leave so fast there would be a cartoon- like whole in the shape of me on the dojo wall.

As for mythology and such, how many people do you think could handle it? If (as a hypothetical example) someone were to share with you lessons they learned about the importance of _Koumokuten_ in one of the arts, do you have the background to tell just what he/she is? Do you expect Hatsumi to spoon feed you things like this from zero?

FYI, I have had talks about Japanese religion and the influence it has had on the arts with Japanese teachers. I think they told me what they did because  I had the background in terms of history, language and religion. One of them told me I should not talk too much about things like this because it is easy for those who do not have the background I do to go spinning off in strange directions.

And again, if you are looking for ways on philosophy of life, I think you should be looking at the way Hatsumi lives and what he says rather than expect a series of textbook- like lessons.


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## Kizaru

Don Roley said:
			
		

> FYI, I have had talks about Japanese religion and the influence it has had on the arts with Japanese teachers. I think they told me what they did because I had the background in terms of history, language and religion. One of them told me I should not talk too much about things like this because it is easy for those who do not have the background I do to go spinning off in *strange* directions...


 
I'll go on the record as saying I've had the same experience. 

The reason above is probably the reason why we don't see a lot of "_Seishin Teki Kyoyo_" posted on the internet or thrown about like confetti in Times Square on New Year's...


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## Senin

Hi Don, 
I heartily agree.  Well, actually you seem to agree with me.  Soke is teaching what he thinks the student should learn--- based on his judgment.  Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners.  Hence, things are held back until he feels it is the appropriate time with the appropriate individual.

And, let's be honest,  the reason why we don't see alot of "Seishin Teki Kyoyo" being posted around here is because a lot of people don't know what it is.


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## Don Roley

Senin said:
			
		

> Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners.



That is not obvious to me. How can you say things with such certainty? I know that some people I know with more experience than me have not had the discussions I have and think it is because they did not have the background I do in that area. I can't say much else with the certaintly that you have.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

The one thing I'll agree with Senin about is that I've personally seen (as well as heard of) instances when the shihan will adjust their choice of teaching material based on the needs and preferences of the people present at that particular time. One of my best memories from my Japan trip was the one time when I saw many people concentrating on setting up a lot of fancy sword disarms, and Hatsumi called up Shiraishi to demonstrate a technique. Initially, Soke made a one-handed downwards cut at Shiraishi, who grabbed the attacking arm with both of his hands from below - upon which Soke promptly switched over his sword to his left hand and smacked Shiraishi in the head.

That was just one of many things I've experienced in recent years that have made me suspect that we Westerners tend to complicate matters for no good reason. However, Senin seems to be unaware of the fact that people with judan and kyu grades alike train together in Honbu at the same time these days.


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## Mountain Kusa

Nimravus said:
			
		

> .........that people with judan and kyu grades alike train together in Honbu at the same time these days.


As a group we have always done this, but there have been those that have bashed me for doing so, saying that kyu grades shouldnt see what dan grades are doing. I think it makes it easier for all of us to learn, and for some, helps them to see where they are going. Thanks for bringing this to light.


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## Kizaru

Senin said:
			
		

> Hi Don,
> I heartily agree. Well, actually you seem to agree with me.


Excuse me. I think you are missing what Don Roley is saying.



			
				Senin said:
			
		

> Obviously he is teaching his shihan different things than he is teaching beginners...


Don Roley is not a shihan. Neither am I.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> but there have been those that have bashed me for doing so, saying that kyu grades shouldnt see what dan grades are doing.


Sounds a bit Gestapo-like to me...


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## Mountain Kusa

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Sounds a bit Gestapo-like to me...


It is rampant in some of the geographical areas. It almost seems like there are those that care more about money then their students actualy learning something that can help them live. I just do the best I can do for those I train with, which in turns helps me.


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## Don Roley

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> It almost seems like there are those that care more about money then their students actualy learning something that can help them live.



Weird. In my first post in this thread I was going to talk about in detail how we should take lessons on how to live our lives by looking at how Hatsumi lives his. And one of the things I was going to mention you touched on.

How many people know that until he was old enough to get a pension Hatsumi continued to work at his clinic? He has _never_ had to rely on teaching martial arts to put food on the table.

Now, compare this with all the people making their living off of teaching Bujinkan. They say they do it to benefit others. I feel they may even believe it- or at least want to.

It is not like this is big news if you have been reading things for a long time. In an issue of Tetsuzan, Nagato talks about martial arts businessmen and paints them in a very low light.

For that matter, if you are looking for lessons in Seishin Teki Kyoyo, you should not expect things to be handled much in the dojo. Hatsumi often says that you can't pick up everything he does even from video. But the written word is a great way to convery philosophy. And it is not like there is not a lot of things that has been written by Hatsumi on the subject. If you want to learn about Bujinkan philosophy, you should be reading books and such by the head of the art. I don't think there is a need for a teacher to sit down much and lecture people on the matter. If fact, I would be leery of anyone who tried to tell others how to live their lives.


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## Mountain Kusa

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I don't think there is a need for a teacher to sit down much and lecture people on the matter. If fact, I would be leery of anyone who tried to tell others how to live their lives.


Yep, I have been told many times over the years that I "must study Mikkyo to understand this art". This is telling me how to live. When I decided that Mikkyo was not for me, I put it down. Then I was able to concentrate on taijutsu and my life. I feel that people have their own lives, and as long as they are not a detriment to society, or are contributing to society, then they are doing okay. I have always felt a good example of how to live is a better than someone brow beating someone till they make it to the point the person figures "what the heck" and gives up. I call it leading horses to water and drowning them. Instead, when the horse gets thirsty enough, it will drink, not because "I and my ego wanted it to", but because it was thirsty and saw the need to do so.


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## Don Roley

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Yep, I have been told many times over the years that I "must study Mikkyo to understand this art".



Who was the moron who told you that? C'mon, names please!

Of course, I am quite vocal in saying you need to know the circumstances that formed this art to understand why it does the things it does. And part of that was Mikkyo. But to say that you need to _practice_ mikkyo to get good in this art is just wrong.

Let me give an anology. If you study the history of the West and the industrial revolution, you hear about the Protestant work ethic. Some people were in a place at a certain time and because of they way they thought they had huge impact in the way things were left to us. So, do you have to be even a Christian to be a capatalist in today's society? I would think not. So I say you have to have an _academic_ understanding of the various influences on the art and not a _religious belief_ in them.

But there are many people in martial arts that have tried to push their religious views on thier students. Ninjutsu can't be expected to be any different.


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## Mountain Kusa

Sorry Don, 

     not gonna give names on a pulic forum. I could but am not. Even though they may think me their enemy, I feel it is every persons right to persue the religion of their choice, and not have mikkyo forced upon them. I dont allow the teaching of religion in class. When a need arises for the group to observe a moment of silence, everyone understands that they may pray, meditate, be silent, etc, but the one thing we all must do is be respectfull. I feel if a person gets something usefull from a religion, good, if they do not, maybe they will find their enlightment, from another place. Maybe, it can be found in the study of taijutsu.


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## Mountain Kusa

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> Sorry Don,
> 
> not gonna give names on a pulic forum. I could but am not.


 I need to clarify this as I seem to sound like a prude after I read it this morning. Sorry. I have been reading "Ninpo, wisdom for life." In that book Hatsumi Sensei says that he and Takamatsu considered it rude to talk about others. Its one thing to say it face to face, but another to say things behind someones back. I feel this goes back to "study how he lives". I have had this discussion with the one individual on numerous occasions, however, it is so ingrained into the way he trains, he cant let go of the mikkyo and just train. This person is still one of my closest buyu and we train often together. Even though we have a difference of oppinon, we agree to disagree. Eventually, all things come full circle, even if that circle is like a gyro, moving till it forms a ball, aint it fun.


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## Don Roley

Oh, I was just kidding about the names. You're no fun anymore.  :wah: 

Sulk, sulk, sulk.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit

Mountain Kusa said:
			
		

> In that book Hatsumi Sensei says that he and Takamatsu considered it rude to talk about others.


A couple of months ago he apparently said that warriors on the battlefield used to carry week-old feces under their fingernails to cause infections when clawing in h2h combat...


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## Mountain Kusa

Nimravus said:
			
		

> A couple of months ago he apparently said that warriors on the battlefield used to carry week-old feces under their fingernails to cause infections when clawing in h2h combat...


 Nasty, but interesting.........but I get the point, that is a book and I am here, and he is there, ........maybe one day I can.


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## Mountain Kusa

Kaka under fingernails, nothing new, that happens everytime the toilet paper busts through!!!!!:toilclaw:


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## Mabus

Old thread I'm following. Here's what me thinks about the 1st Pillar or Womb Realm:
Hatsumi simply isn't at that level. Yes, he's right. Just do Budo -- but his self-importance is not erased enough for the full trans-mission of Seishin-teki kyoko to take place in him. So there's a bluff, but the bluff is well guided by the Echo of the Mongolian Tiger. So just do Budo... but Budo is always. In traffic, in line, in the waiting room. When no-one is watching. Fudoshin has other forms -- stray a little. Seek the Goddess Ma'at of the Womb Realm and leave the Five Guardian Kings... 

Here... we are in uncharterred territory. Don't bother with anything new. Return to the principles. But stray, stray, stray... eat from the forbidden fruit.

What is survival? Survival of what? It's IS NOT an art of Self-Preservation. It is an art of Self-Realisation. For that matter, survival is about yielding to Fudoshin... survival is about Surrender. Survival is about ensuring the emerging of Ma'at: Truth and Justice.

So for that matter; Ninja is OUTLAW. Ninja is designed for troubled times. Ninja emerges when opression is heavy. The Empire is showing a strong hand again... and that is the call. The cry of the Soul. Ninja has yet to tap it's full potential.

P.S. I have no clue what I'm talking about. But it's my feeling. And my feeling is my truth.


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## Hayseed

> P.S. I have no clue what I'm talking about. But it's my feeling. And my feeling is my truth.



Hey, at least you're honest.

P.S.  Isn't "Mabus" the name of the antichrist in Nostradamian lore?


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