# Dial 911 and die!



## AC_Pilot (Feb 21, 2005)

The 911 operator is an idiot, despensing bad actor advice, but the armed citizen is a gutsy old lady..!

http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/4208817/detail.html


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## michaeledward (Feb 21, 2005)

Again ... a thread with a totally false title.

No body died. The 911 operators did exactly what they were supposed to do.


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## Flatlander (Feb 21, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> The 911 operator is an idiot, despensing bad actor advice, but the armed citizen is a gutsy old lady..!
> 
> http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/4208817/detail.html


Did the advice given run counter to the call center policy for dealing with this type of issue? Do you suppose that society would benefit from scrapping the 911 system? What do you think would have been a more appropriate response?

Something that people who have not worked within the 911 system tend not to consider is that the operators cannot assume anything. They must dispense advice and direction based upon the information that they have. Assuming that the caller knew appropriately how to use a firearm would be irresponsible and dangerous. If the 911 operator had advised the complainant to go ahead and use the weapon for leverage and the suspect had been murdered, they would be accountable for that. They dealt with this as best as I can see they could have.

Easy to armchair quarterback, though, isn't it? Particularly given the benefit of hindsight.


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## Tgace (Feb 21, 2005)

Yeah, could you imagine if the operator said "well gosh durn it, get your pistol and catch the *******!"..."Yeah! Thats it! Get him!!!"


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## Jerry (Feb 22, 2005)

Actually, at least in this state (and in most), both the person and the operator were wrong. After a petty theft is complete, it is illegal to brandish a firearm to prevent escape (not a forcible felony).

Further, chasing down someone, while carrying a loaded weapon, is dangerous. You are not allowed to shoot someone to effect a citizen's arrest, and he would be within his rights to defend himself from "the woman chasing him waving around a handgun" by shooting her.

The proper advice from the operator should have been "Don't chase after him, get back in your house"


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## dearnis.com (Feb 22, 2005)

In this case things ended well, but... the dispatcher was trying to prevent the situation from escalating or an innocent person from being hurt.  And guess what, that is part of their job.  When temper and ego flare, and things get out of hand, you can rapidly find yourself in a whole lot more trouble that the original suspect.  And on the civil end folks tend to go after those with assets; typically not the purse snatcher.
(I'm currently involved with a similar- not identical- case that had a tragic outcome; no additional details as it is still in the system.  Let's just say everyone lost big time.)
Jerry- good points, but the petty/misdemeanor theft escalates to felony robbery with the use of force/threat of force.


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## Jerry (Feb 22, 2005)

> Jerry- good points, but the petty/misdemeanor theft escalates to felony robbery with the use of force/threat of force.


 Thank you, I had not noticed where it said force was in use. Dealing again with FL law: this allowes the use of a weapon to prevent the crime, though I doubt it allows you to chase after the person once the commission is over, gun waving.


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## MJS (Feb 22, 2005)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Did the advice given run counter to the call center policy for dealing with this type of issue? Do you suppose that society would benefit from scrapping the 911 system? What do you think would have been a more appropriate response?
> 
> Something that people who have not worked within the 911 system tend not to consider is that the operators cannot assume anything. They must dispense advice and direction based upon the information that they have. Assuming that the caller knew appropriately how to use a firearm would be irresponsible and dangerous. If the 911 operator had advised the complainant to go ahead and use the weapon for leverage and the suspect had been murdered, they would be accountable for that. They dealt with this as best as I can see they could have.
> 
> Easy to armchair quarterback, though, isn't it? Particularly given the benefit of hindsight.



Very well said.  As with any Newspaper article, we are only getting half of the story.  We do not the policies/procedures of that dept. or of the dispatch center.  In addition, any time people are in a tense situation, of course its going to seem like an eternity before the police arrive.  The thing that people seem to forget, is that there are only so many officers per district.  It takes time for the cop to drive from one end to the other.  

Speaking with experience as a dispatcher, this past Friday night, I took a call from a woman who stated that her and her husband were getting harrassing phone calls.  She proceeded to tell me that with their caller ID, they were able to find the location where these calls were coming from.  I told her that an officer would be sent out shortly.  Not even 5 min. later, I received a 2nd call from this woman, stating that her husband had staked out the location where the calls were coming from, and that her husband was now chasing the accused with his vehicle.  Using his Nextel cell phone, he was relaying their location to her and she was relaying this to me.  Now, IMO, this was not wise on her husbands part.  The reckless driving on both the accused and husbands part, could have resulted in serious injury to A) the parties involved or B) to people in the area.  Despite ignored attempts to have this womans husband stop the chase, they continued driving at high rates of speed through the city streets.  

Although I don't think that her husband acted wisely, all turned out well, as officers in the area were able to stop both cars, and properly deal with the situation.

Mike


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## Feisty Mouse (Feb 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Very well said. As with any Newspaper article, we are only getting half of the story. We do not the policies/procedures of that dept. or of the dispatch center. In addition, any time people are in a tense situation, of course its going to seem like an eternity before the police arrive. The thing that people seem to forget, is that there are only so many officers per district. It takes time for the cop to drive from one end to the other.
> 
> Speaking with experience as a dispatcher, this past Friday night, I took a call from a woman who stated that her and her husband were getting harrassing phone calls. She proceeded to tell me that with their caller ID, they were able to find the location where these calls were coming from. I told her that an officer would be sent out shortly. Not even 5 min. later, I received a 2nd call from this woman, stating that her husband had staked out the location where the calls were coming from, and that her husband was now chasing the accused with his vehicle. Using his Nextel cell phone, he was relaying their location to her and she was relaying this to me. Now, IMO, this was not wise on her husbands part. The reckless driving on both the accused and husbands part, could have resulted in serious injury to A) the parties involved or B) to people in the area. Despite ignored attempts to have this womans husband stop the chase, they continued driving at high rates of speed through the city streets.
> 
> ...


Mike, I'm curious.  Did/would the husband who engaged in a high-speed chase across town get into trouble for that whilst chasing the suspected harrasser?


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## MJS (Feb 22, 2005)

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> Mike, I'm curious.  Did/would the husband who engaged in a high-speed chase across town get into trouble for that whilst chasing the suspected harrasser?



It all comes down to the cop that is taking care of the call.  We have some that are go getters, go out and look for the bad guys, make arrests, etc. and we have some that like to do as little as possible.  

Not sure what happened to the husband, but I do know that the accused was arrested.  

This incident apparently stemmed from a years worth of calls.  Apparently a friend of the husband called a local pizza delivery place and ordered a few pizzas to be delievered to this guys house.  The delievery man showed up around 11:30 pm with these pizzas.  Needless to say, the homeowner was not too happy, seeing that he himself, never made this call.  Seems that the pizza guy took offense to this, and from that point on, every Friday night at 11:30...the time he was sent on this bogus delivery...he would crank call this guys house.  

Mike


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## Ceicei (Feb 22, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> This incident apparently stemmed from a years worth of calls. Apparently a friend of the husband called a local pizza delivery place and ordered a few pizzas to be delievered to this guys house. The delievery man showed up around 11:30 pm with these pizzas. Needless to say, the homeowner was not too happy, seeing that he himself, never made this call. Seems that the pizza guy took offense to this, and from that point on, every Friday night at 11:30...the time he was sent on this bogus delivery...he would crank call this guys house.
> 
> Mike


  Scary.  Sounds like something that could easily turn more than just ugly.

  - Ceicei


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## sgtmac_46 (Feb 23, 2005)

First, the dispatcher can't just teleport police officers to the scene.  Second, she didn't exactly sound mentally stable on the phone, so advising her to get her gun and use it would be pure idiocy.  She can do what she wants, but that doesn't mean that the dispatcher should advise her to do it.


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## 8253 (Feb 23, 2005)

AC_Pilot said:
			
		

> The 911 operator is an idiot, despensing bad actor advice, but the armed citizen is a gutsy old lady..!
> 
> http://www.channeloklahoma.com/news/4208817/detail.html



I just finished listening to the recording on the link that you put there.  It sounded to me like he did things as correctly as possible for the situation.  He cant make an assumption based on unverified information.  This leads to suspects and innocent bystanders getting hurt.  Dispatchers are liable (criminally and civily) if they tell someone to do something that gets someone hurt or killed.  Dont knock a dispatcher untill you have sat in their position and tried to talk sense to people who at the time have no sense.  You really shouldnt call dispatchers idiots over doing their jobs.  As far a despensing bad actor advice a dispatcher must try to calm things as much as possible untill the officer arrives, to help the officer be able to speak with someone who has their senses about them.


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## dearnis.com (Feb 23, 2005)

Hypothetical- you are pursuing a suspect (ie the above harrassing caller) in a vehicle, you strike and kill a pedestrian.  Guess what....you have none of the legal protection enjoyed by emergency personel, you do not have the defense of emergency lights and sirens, and if you are lucky you will only buy a negligent homicide charge.
Next hypothetical- you are pursing on foot with a weapon.  Suppose a) an armed 3rd party comes upon you and the suspect and assumes you are the bad guy  b) an officer responding comes on the two of you...who presents the deadly force threat (hint...NOT the un-armed crook)  c) you accidentally/negligently fire a round....which travels into a house....  have you had any training to be acting in this way with a firearm?  where/when/who?  How is your personal liability coverage?

Get the picture?


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## MJS (Feb 24, 2005)

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> Hypothetical- you are pursuing a suspect (ie the above harrassing caller) in a vehicle, you strike and kill a pedestrian.  Guess what....you have none of the legal protection enjoyed by emergency personel, you do not have the defense of emergency lights and sirens, and if you are lucky you will only buy a negligent homicide charge.
> Next hypothetical- you are pursing on foot with a weapon.  Suppose a) an armed 3rd party comes upon you and the suspect and assumes you are the bad guy  b) an officer responding comes on the two of you...who presents the deadly force threat (hint...NOT the un-armed crook)  c) you accidentally/negligently fire a round....which travels into a house....  have you had any training to be acting in this way with a firearm?  where/when/who?  How is your personal liability coverage?
> 
> Get the picture?



Excellent points!!! :asian: 

And the moral of the story IMO....Don't be a hero.  Let the professionals get the bad guys and be the hero. 

Mike


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## FearlessFreep (Feb 24, 2005)

I think that's what worries LEO's and those that work with them.  Someone untrained tryig to be a hero, and someone else getting hurt.  They can't count on what training civilians have had so they disuade people from getting too pro-active.  Defending yourself is one thing, chasing down a perp with a gun is another


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## Thunderbolt (Mar 7, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Excellent points!!! :asian:
> 
> And the moral of the story IMO....Don't be a hero. Let the professionals get the bad guys and be the hero.
> 
> Mike


this doesn't happen all the times. Sometimes, the professionals arrive too late and everything is over. You can't depend on cops all the times. If they are able to protect you, i don't think one of us will go to karate school.


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## MJS (Mar 9, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> this doesn't happen all the times. Sometimes, the professionals arrive too late and everything is over. You can't depend on cops all the times. If they are able to protect you, i don't think one of us will go to karate school.



I guess where I was going with that was, rather than chase after the guy and risk your life as well as others around you, let the cops do it.  In the story that I posted, the callers husband had the plate of the car.  There was no need to drive at high rates of speed to prove a point.  And yes, many times, the incident is over by the time the police arrive, but again, there is no reason to take the law into your own hands.  The police would have followed up on this incident.

Mike


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## sgtmac_46 (Mar 10, 2005)

Thunderbolt said:
			
		

> this doesn't happen all the times. Sometimes, the professionals arrive too late and everything is over. You can't depend on cops all the times. If they are able to protect you, i don't think one of us will go to karate school.


Whatever you do, if you take it in to your own hands, don't expect the police to endorse that action.  I mean, if you feel comfortable reacting pro-actively, fine, but the police shouldn't be recommending the public do that. You are responsible for you, however.


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## arnisador (Mar 28, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> And the moral of the story IMO....Don't be a hero.  Let the professionals get the bad guys and be the hero.


 This is what I always tell my kids. "Get out of there...dial 911...and let many police officers with guns handle the situation. Don't try to settle it yourself." Of course it's the procedures and experiences more than the guns in most cases...and the extensive backup.


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