# New Jersey police officer pounds man on tape



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

*Police beating on tape*   0:52 

Surveillance video shows a Passaic, New Jersey, police officer beating a man who was standing on a street corner.
*Source: WABC | Added June 5, 2009* 



Story Highlights
 Footage shows officer slam Ronnie Holloway onto car hood, beat him with baton
 Holloway says he exchanged no words with officer before he pounced on him
 Holloway's mother says he is schizophrenic
 Passaic Police charged Holloway with resisting arrest, disorderly conduct
*CNN)* -- Surveillance video shows a Passaic, New Jersey, police officer beating a 49-year-old man standing idly on a street corner.      	 	 	 	 	 	 	 	 	 		 			 		 		 	 	 		 			 				 			 			 				 			 		 	 	 		 			 		 		 		 	 	 	 	 		 				 		 				 		 	 	 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 			 		 	 	 		 				 			 				 				 					 						 							 						 						 					 				 					 			 				 						 			 				 				 			 			 				 				 								 				 				 				 					 				 				  			 				 				 			 			 				 				 				 			 			 		 				 			 				 				 					 						 							 						 						 					 				 					 			 				 						 			 			 				 				 								 				 				 				 					 				 				  			 				 				 				 			 			 		 	 	 	 	 			 			 			 				 					     												 					








 			  			 		 	 	   Surveillance tape from Lawrence's Grill and Bar in Passaic on May 29 shows a police car pull up to Ronnie Holloway, who is standing still on the curb outside the restaurant. After a few moments Holloway zips up his sweatshirt -- because the female officer in the car instructed him to do so, Holloway said.


 At that point, the other officer in the vehicle, Joseph R. Rios III, exits the car, grabs Holloway and slams him onto the hood of the police car. He then pummels Holloway with his fist and baton.


 Holloway said he had exchanged no words with the officer before he pounced on him.


 After the incident, police locked Holloway in a holding cell for the night and did not provide treatment for his injuries, according to Holloway's attorney, Nancy Lucianna. Those injuries included a torn cornea and extensive bruising to the left side of his body, she said.


*New Jersey cop beats man in unprovoked attack caught on video*


video of attack at links.
http://www.cnn.com/video/


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## MJS (Jun 7, 2009)

Going on just was I saw and read, I'd say that a few people have some serious explaining to do.  Unless there is more to the story, this was way over the top.


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## Big Don (Jun 7, 2009)

Rodney King was a long time ago, and these idiots still don't know about video cameras?


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## Omar B (Jun 7, 2009)

Disgusting.  I respect cops, my best friend's dad is a cop and I practically grew up in that house but for every one like him there's the type that does this crap or slams me against the wall when I'm out for my morning run saying "You fit a description."


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## Big Don (Jun 7, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Disgusting.  I respect cops, my best friend's dad is a cop and I practically grew up in that house but for *every one like him there's the type that does this crap or slams me against the wall when I'm out for my morning run saying "You fit a description.*"


No, there really isn't, and with that face, who could blame them?


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## searcher (Jun 7, 2009)

I would like to know what the LEO's reasoning was for doing what he did.

I am not siding with either, I want more information first.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 7, 2009)

It looks bad for the cop. I just wish there was audio. It's easy to see a 50 sec video clip and make assumptions. I just wish there was more.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

Let me ask this.
If the guy called the cop a "dirty junk sucking pig", was that beating justified?
If the guy spit on the car, was that beating justified?
If the guy whipped out his winkie, and showered the car, was that beating justified?

Just pulling 3 things out of thin air here.

I'd like to know the official statement however before I pass judgment.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 7, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Let me ask this.
> If the guy called the cop a "dirty junk sucking pig", was that beating justified?
> If the guy spit on the car, was that beating justified?
> If the guy whipped out his winkie, and showered the car, was that beating justified?
> ...


Good point. Ihate to see this type of thing. I've known many cops in the past and MOST of them have been decent people who care about the people they are sworn to protect. When I see an abuse of power, it pisses me off, because I know it will be used, by some to paint all cops with the same brush.


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## Omar B (Jun 7, 2009)

Big Don said:


> No, there really isn't, and with that face, who could blame them?



Trying to be funny?


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 7, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Trying to be funny?


No trying about it........it was funny. Nice one Don:rofl:


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## Omar B (Jun 7, 2009)

Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.


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## yorkshirelad (Jun 7, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall and racially profiling, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.


 
Yep!!


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## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2009)

Why dont we just make a "bad cop no doughnut" forum and put all these threads into them?

I'm starting to wonder about the point of all of them...


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## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> Good point. Ihate to see this type of thing. I've known many cops in the past and MOST of them have been decent people who care about the people they are sworn to protect. When I see an abuse of power, it pisses me off, because I know it will be used, by some to paint all cops with the same brush.



Yup...and that tape definitely looks bad. The thing is, what am I supposed to do about it? That sort of behavior is not tolerated in MY dept. That guy, if the truth is indeed as bad as that tape looks would either be on a suspension so long he would loose his home due to lack of funds or he would be fired. And fire people we have...and for less. Thats the best I can do. I cant go to NJ and do ANYTHING about that guy.


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## Carol (Jun 7, 2009)

yorkshirelad said:


> It looks bad for the cop. I just wish there was audio. It's easy to see a 50 sec video clip and make assumptions. I just wish there was more.



Generally speaking, security surveillance cameras can't record audio and still be compliant with the law.  (Audio recordings fall under wiretapping regulations and require consent).


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## jks9199 (Jun 7, 2009)

Folks,
Remember, please, to debate the post & not the poster.  Personal attacks never further your argument, and generally, the mud you fling just ends up getting you dirty...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

I post these because people need to know who the scum bags are. I post the "good cop" stories as I find them because people need to know who the good guys are, and that the bad cops aren't the rule, but the exception. I'm currently looking at a list of cop/dhs/rentacop abuse stories that scroll for pages, all from this year.  If I posted half of them, you'd think I hated cops. It's hard to find the attaboys, and I hunt for those specifically to balance things out.  It's also why I ask for leo feedback as half the outrage videos I find can often be balanced by the voice of experience. You guys know what's acceptable contact, etc, and have a perspective into these things that is invaluable to others understanding.  No, I don't expect anyone to run to NJ etc and correct the fool here, but to me, it's important that people know that these are the exceptions, not the rules. A balance here, when other sites just want to turn into cop bash fests.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Why dont we just make a "bad cop no doughnut" forum and put all these threads into them?
> 
> I'm starting to wonder about the point of all of them...


I've considered it. I also think it would turn into a cop-bash mudpit real fast, and that's not my goal.


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## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2009)

Maybe I am becoming a bit sensitive...its just that most cases where I see people posting up one of these situations after another its intended as an indictment against ALL US law enforcement...or the nebulous "cops" category. Hell some of our Brit friends here seem to be taking them as the rule vs. the example based on some conversations I have had. As a cop I just don't know what I'm expected to say. It's to the point where I want to just assign my opinion as:

A. Justified
B.Unjustified
C. Need more info. 

And then bow out....

This one "looks" like a B to me. But Im always leaning toward C because I just dont trust the media to present all the info in these cases. 

Its probably why my brethren seem to refrain from commenting on them. 

I cant seem to resist.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

Let me put this out there.  If you, or any other LEO on here thinks I'm not being fair, let me know.  I tell me staff to let me know when I go to far on some topics, y'all let me know too.  I want to be as fair as possible, to all sides. If you think a threads turning into a bash fest, report it.  We have a few LEO's on staff, who can help us keep things in balance. :asian:


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## Archangel M (Jun 7, 2009)

Will do Bob...actually some of these threads about use of force that "look" bad to the uninformed but seem reasonable to me can be an opportunity to explain how things could possibly be legitimate uses of force. Like the "kneeling on the neck" thread and the drunk getting arrested and punched. I feel like there is at least something to discuss.

In cases like this one though...I just dont know what to say.


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## Carol (Jun 7, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> Will do Bob...actually some of these threads that "look" bad to the uninformed but seem reasonable to me can be an opportunity to explain.
> 
> In cases like this one though...I just dont know what to say.



Consider the source, Arch.   

This was a story that was published on the blog of a photog that decried an attempt in Massachusetts to criminalize erotic photographs of the mentally incompetent, and also decried a photographer in Illinois that would follow small children to the porta-john and insisted that one follow him to a secluded area so he could be photographed in suggestive stances.   In court, the boy said he thought that he couldn't leave.   Yes the original coverage was from a major media outlet, but the blogger clearly has an axe to grind against cops.

If I supported behaviour such as this, I probably wouldn't hesitate to show LEOs in a bad light also.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 7, 2009)

Regardless of the bias's of 1 source, when you get major outlet coverage, especially when it basically says the same thing, doesn't that somewhat negate the bias?


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## Carol (Jun 7, 2009)

Somewhat.  I won't deny that the story as presented doesn't look very good and if the LEOs in question are found to be out of line, then I hope they are punished.


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## geezer (Jun 8, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.



The joke about your picture stopped being funny the moment you put it into the context of your real life experience. There's _nothing_ funny at all about being harassed, presumably because of your color and age. Omar, you and I may not get along... but I'm with you 100% on this.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Let me ask this.
> If the guy called the cop a "dirty junk sucking pig", was that beating justified?
> If the guy spit on the car, was that beating justified?
> If the guy whipped out his winkie, and showered the car, was that beating justified?
> ...


 
No. But what if he's lying? What if they asked him to open his sweatshirt so they could see any weapons, but instead he zipped it shut, while saying out loud, "I ain't gonna let you see my piece, and if you know what's good for you, you'll just keep on driving...otherwise, I'm going to shoot you ion the face and rape your dead body." At which point they instruct him to place his hands in the air, and he makes some other agitating comment, while leaving his hands in the vicinity of his waistband, a clear threat to the safety of the officers.

So he gets out to tackle the guy, but the guys reactions basically keep the cop at bay, in the guard, so the cop can't frisk him to disarm him. If he disengages long enough, he runs the risk of the other guy drawing the weapon he may have, and capping the cop. His other option would be to draw on and shoot the alleged perp, which would make his option of beating him into submission until backup arrives the more humane and merciful choice, considering.

Is that what happened? I doubt it. But that cop flew out of his patrol car and oin the guy fast; not typical of the situations that lead to abuse. He flew cuz he felt threatened by something, and wasn't getting the reaction from the suspect he felt was safe. Beat downs typically have more dialogue before contact.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jun 8, 2009)

Thanks for the different perspective. I hadn't thought of that.
:asian:


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## Archangel M (Jun 8, 2009)

The latest:



> PASSAIC, N.J. (WPIX) - A police officer in New Jersey, captured on surveillance tape viciously beating a mentally ill man, has been reassigned while an investigation into the incident is underway.
> 
> Passaic cop Joseph J. Rios III, a seven-year veteran of the force, has not been charged in the May 29 attack but instead has been assigned to desk duty.
> 
> ...


Just an odd thought...why would the female cop have told this guy to "zip up his sweater"? Seems like an odd request...

Unless perhaps they think that by zipping up the BG has a harder time accessing a weapon...


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 8, 2009)

Archangel M said:


> The latest:
> 
> Just an odd thought...why would the female cop have told this guy to "zip up his sweater"? Seems like an odd request...
> 
> Unless perhaps they think that by zipping up the BG has a harder time accessing a weapon...


 
I guess my whole thing is...we don't even know what we don't know. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly under revision, sometimes sensibly, sometimes because there's a fad-du-jour in policy and politics that mandates how officers ought to approach a possible suspect.

We don't know what she said to him, or what he said to her. Schizophrenia, by definition, is a propensity to respond to internal stimuli as if it's real, often ignoring external stimuli. My first thought upon reading this -- and having worked with schizophrenic clients -- was "how does he know it was her who told him to zip up his sweatshirt? Perhaps he was too busy listening to -- and responding to -- internal stimuli to hear and respond to thier instructions?" They did, after all, pull right up to him and start addressing him. He very likely was exhibiting erratic behavior, making passersby nervous and leading up to the call; happens everyday, all over the country with mental health clients. The lucky ones are known to the local patrol cops, or are visibly dissheveled in a way that hollers "psychiatric derangement" to the responding officers. The ones that look normal enough to pass for just being belligerent and combative druggies tend to get more jacked in the arrest proceedings. 

So, he's responding to the voices in his head, instead of the policewomans. That would lead to the cops thinking they had a belligerent and possibly combative or dangerous party. He may even have been talking back to the voices in his head in an angry or violently threatening tone...which makes this even sadder, on multiple levels. 

How would the cops know he was talking to his internal parties and not them? How much more does it suck for the poor guy to have gotten trounced, essentially just for having a psychiatric disease? How were the cops supposed to know he wasn't responding to them, because his dose needed adjusting? How misrable to be the cop, and find out after the fact that the guy you pounced on -- to keep him from assaulting your female partner, or potentially harming either or both of you, or a bystander -- was actually just dealing with an undermedicated hallucination?

Whole thing sucks, on multiple levels, regardless of what happened. But the reality remains...we don't have enough information to pass judgement. We have content, without context. And that context is vital for the proper attribution of meaning.


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## MA-Caver (Jun 8, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> No. But what if he's lying? What if they asked him to open his sweatshirt so they could see any weapons, but instead he zipped it shut, while saying out loud, "I ain't gonna let you see my piece, and if you know what's good for you, you'll just keep on driving...otherwise, I'm going to shoot you ion the face and rape your dead body." At which point they instruct him to place his hands in the air, and he makes some other agitating comment, while leaving his hands in the vicinity of his waistband, a clear threat to the safety of the officers.
> 
> So he gets out to tackle the guy, but the guys reactions basically keep the cop at bay, in the guard, so the cop can't frisk him to disarm him. If he disengages long enough, he runs the risk of the other guy drawing the weapon he may have, and capping the cop. His other option would be to draw on and shoot the alleged perp, which would make his option of beating him into submission until backup arrives the more humane and merciful choice, considering.
> 
> ...


 It is one of the things that seemingly easy to forget when watching these videos, that police work is still DANGEROUS work for those behind the badge. Far too many can relate stories of their own of life threatening encounters.
Something happened that we don't know prior to the arrival of the police vehicle. The man might've caused trouble in the establishment (a bar?) on the corner and the owner/operator/employee called the police who arrived in time to see the "suspect" outside (matching description) and the suspect failed to comply with requests/demands given by the officer. There is also a jump in the (original) video where we see the officers in the car and suddenly outside the car and the "take-down" initiated... not the officers getting OUT of the vehicle and approaching the "suspect". 
<edit> seeing other video shows the officers getting out of the car... still don't know what was said between them. 


Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> I guess my whole thing is...we don't even know what we don't know. Standard Operating Procedures are constantly under revision, sometimes sensibly, sometimes because there's a fad-du-jour in policy and politics that mandates how officers ought to approach a possible suspect.
> 
> We don't know what she said to him, or what he said to her. Schizophrenia, by definition, is a propensity to respond to internal stimuli as if it's real, often ignoring external stimuli. My first thought upon reading this -- and having worked with schizophrenic clients -- was "how does he know it was her who told him to zip up his sweatshirt? Perhaps he was too busy listening to -- and responding to -- internal stimuli to hear and respond to thier instructions?" They did, after all, pull right up to him and start addressing him. He very likely was exhibiting erratic behavior, making passersby nervous and leading up to the call; happens everyday, all over the country with mental health clients. The lucky ones are known to the local patrol cops, or are visibly disheveled in a way that hollers "psychiatric derangement" to the responding officers. The ones that look normal enough to pass for just being belligerent and combative druggies tend to get more jacked in the arrest proceedings.
> 
> ...


Be that as it may, the officers didn't know any of that and were responding to a call, probably from the establishment. The call could've been that Holloway was being belligerent or troublesome in the establishment which might've been from complications arising from his schizophrenic episode. 

I'm not trying to defend the cops either because I too agree that it was excessive, a take down doesn't necessarily require a beating for compliance. As I understand it officers are (supposed to be) trained to take a person down and within reason immobilize them until they can be handled without threat to the officer or to themselves. Whomping on the guy with their baton while he's down is excessive.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 8, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Regardless of the bias's of 1 source, when you get major outlet coverage, especially when it basically says the same thing, doesn't that somewhat negate the bias?



it could also show that they are all biased


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## MJS (Jun 8, 2009)

While I am not advocating what took place in this clip, I think one of the major problems with things like this, is that the majority of the time, we are seeing part of a situation or a one sided view.  In other words, how many times have we seen things in which the first thing we see is the supposed victim getting slammed agains the wall?  Right away, certain people assume that the cop is the bad guy, yet what we're not seeing is what the BG did prior to getting slammed.  Again, not saying its always justified, but perhaps we missed the part where the BG took a swing at the cop, spit at him, whatever.  

We often see reports from groups that tend to be anti cop, so that brings us to the 1 sided views.  Those groups dont wanna hear anything except bad cop and poor suspect, regardless of what the suspect did.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 9, 2009)

It's New Jersey.


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## The Last Legionary (Jun 9, 2009)

Omar B said:


> Yeah, cop slamming me into a wall, real funny, him making fun of my picture, hilarious.


I don't know. You do have that "I'm sorry, I can't hear you over how awesome I am" look to you.


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## Omar B (Jun 10, 2009)

One would expect the topic to be not about my picture in this thread, it was an unprovoked personal attack and I thought a grown up would have a bit more class than trashing someone's pic, especially in a pretty serious thread.

Oh and it was a  birthday party, not that I need to explain that.


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## Big Don (Jun 10, 2009)

The "some of my best friends are __________" crap turned my stomach a little, and, not too long ago, you were perfectly happy to joke about the "punch me smirk" in the picture.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 10, 2009)

So--how 'bout that crazy New Jersey?


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## Carol (Jun 10, 2009)

Both officers have been suspended.

http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/...p_njcopvideotapedbeatingsuspectsuspended.html


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## jks9199 (Jun 10, 2009)

Ladies and gentlemen,

I remind you that the topic of this thread is not what any user looks like.  I encourage you to make use of the Report To Moderator button to report ANY post (including visitor messages and rep comments) you feel is inappropriate, violates the Rules, or is an attack on you.  DO NOT RESPOND IN KIND!

Thank you for your attention, and I now return you to the regularly scheduled thread about the actions of a NJ police officer as captured on a security camera...

jks9199
Moderator


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 10, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> Ladies and gentlemen,
> 
> I remind you that the topic of this thread is not what any user looks like. I encourage you to make use of the Report To Moderator button to report ANY post (including visitor messages and rep comments) you feel is inappropriate, violates the Rules, or is an attack on you. DO NOT RESPOND IN KIND!
> 
> ...


 
You're ugly, and your mother dresses you funny.


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## Carol (Jun 10, 2009)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> You're ugly, and your mother dresses you funny.



Pssst...Dr. Dave? 

Busting on a police officer is a bad idea.

Busting on a Mod placing a warning is a bad idea.

Busting on a Mod that also happens to be a police officer...well...I'll let you do the math


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## Archangel M (Jun 10, 2009)

Carol Kaur said:


> Both officers have been suspended.
> 
> http://www.philly.com/philly/wires/...p_njcopvideotapedbeatingsuspectsuspended.html



FYI..

Someone is bound to get twisted over the "suspended with pay" part...thinking that that is the cops punishment. I just want to be the first one in to say that when a cop is under investigation, but not yet convicted of a crime or proven to have been in violation of policy, he/she is typically suspended with pay until the investigation is complete. If the investigation finds the officer in the wrong then the punishment could range from prosecution, to termination, to a suspension without pay.

The female officer was apparently found to have violated policy, hence she was suspended w/o pay...that may possibly be her "punishment" as well as she wasn't physically involved in the incident.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jun 10, 2009)

carol kaur said:


> pssst...dr. Dave?
> 
> Busting on a police officer is a bad idea.
> 
> ...


 
doh!


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## 5-0 Kenpo (Jun 12, 2009)

What I find interesting is that no one has commented on the fact that after Halloway zips up his jacket, there is an obvious editing cut in the video.  But of course, we trust the little color box and believe everything thatit shows, no matter what.


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## Andy Moynihan (Jun 12, 2009)

It's New Jersey.


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## MJS (Jun 12, 2009)

5-0 Kenpo said:


> What I find interesting is that no one has commented on the fact that after Halloway zips up his jacket, there is an obvious editing cut in the video. But of course, we trust the little color box and believe everything thatit shows, no matter what.


 
Ya know, until you mentioned it, I never gave it much thought.  Not making an excuse for not noticing, but its like I always say...anytime we see an article or video from the media or someone snapping with a cell phone camera, we need to take it with a grain of salt.  Seems like anytime someone gets involved when they shouldn't, half the incident is missing.  Another example, and I forget where it was being discussed on this forum, was that clip in which the drunk guy was removed from an outdoor party and hit in the back of the head.  What led up to that?  Hmm.....


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