# A punch is a punch is a punch........



## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2002)

What all (hidden developments) is involved in a punch (which is the master key upper body drill)?

:asian:


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## Turner (Apr 22, 2002)

Not having studied Kenpo, I don't know what a master key is so forgive me if I misunderstand the question and don't provide an answer that fits the question.

Your punch starts (in traditional Karate) from a chamber on your hip and starts moving forward and up. 

1. At about halfway to the target your arm has completed an uppercut. 

2. If you introduce an arc to the forward and keep the elbow down you have an inside or outside block or an inside or outside hand-sword.

3. If you continue on the forward and up motion with out the arc, but don't turn your fist over you have a back-fist, finger whip or back-knuckle strike.

4. If you continue on the forward and up motion and complete the punch you have the punch. If your hand is open you have a heel-palm, spear-hand, push or a grab.

5. As you start to come back from the punch you can pull.

6. As the arm starts to bend and you add an arc to the arm you can slice, rake, ridge-hand or claw your assailant.

7. As the arm returns to the chamber you are executing a reverse elbow strike.

My interpretation of a punch and all that it could turn into (there are plenty more if you get into joint manipulation and involve the other hand in motion) is one of the reasons I get so frustrated when I hear people talking about Kenpo (even though I don't know the techniques) involving over-kill when it defends against a grab. The same technique would work if the grab was actually a punch because the same motions are used. To assume that the grab is always a grab or the punch is just a punch limits you. They are just motions. The intent is in the mind of the person using that motion, not in the motion itself.

But that's just me...


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 22, 2002)

It's what you know about the motion.  The reason this is a key is that all your strikes or blocks or hand maneuvers can be found in the action of punching (you do need to understand about different angles and paths of execution) and its reverse and opposite movement.  

:asian:


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## Turner (Apr 23, 2002)

So the term "master key" refers to a technique/motion/concept that "unlocks" many doors? Cool.

So how many masters keys are there EPAK and what categories do they 'unlock'? I'm not sure I want to know what the master keys themselves are because discovery is most the fun.


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *So the term "master key" refers to a technique/motion/concept that "unlocks" many doors? Cool.
> 
> *



Absolutely! 

techniques, 
kicking, 
striking, 
drills,
etc.,

The most common known are the Technique Master Keys found thru family groupings. 

:asian:


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## brianhunter (Apr 24, 2002)

brain...full....must reatain........good knowledge.........

Its the brain pain coach!


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## Ronin (Apr 25, 2002)

hey Mr. C thanks for the punch the other day.  It left me with a bruise.....


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## Goldendragon7 (Apr 25, 2002)

It was just a little tap....... besides...... you only get promoted to 1st Brown once in your life!

:asian:


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## Judo_Kid (Jun 1, 2002)

Same as GoldenDragon7. his right. Thats what im thinking Earlier.


:EG:


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## satans.barber (Jun 1, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *It was just a little tap....... besides...... you only get promoted to 1st Brown once in your life!
> 
> :asian: *



Mr. Cawood's packed that in now. It always used to be a decent kick in the solar plexus for lads and a (fairly gentle) palm heel for the ladies.

We had it explained that blah blah it shows we're passing something on blah blah, then this one lad took a kick and just crumpled to the floor, he hadn't tensed his stomach properly and it knocked the wind RIGHT out of him, like worse than normal, he couldn't breath and he started to go all blue...

Since then, just standing their and being kicked hard has seemed like an unacceptable risk to him, so, we don't anymore. Besides, a hand shake is much more civil 

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 1, 2002)

However, if the instructor doing the initiation kicks, punches, heel palms.... etc.  too hard or ........ THE STUDENT INHALES not exhales correctly..... SURE it can happen.

I still  do the "Dragons Kiss" or the traditional kick or punch as a "Right of Passage" but in nearly 30 years have never had a problem.  

The Instructor also has a "Strong" responsibility to teach the student how to control his breathing and be able to take a strike.  If there is no instruction then ....... you know what the results may be.   This is also another part of the usage of this tradition, but the Initiating Instructor has the responsibility NOT to abuse the student while waiting for his "tap"!!!!!   Some instructors I guess could abuse this sorry to say.    Also it is not a "free shot" to hit as hard as one wants!  It should be firm but not fully powerful.  

I mean really.... come on..... You are gonna let me hit you full power while you are in a training horse with out the option to block.......... geez.... that sounds fair....... LOL...     "NOT"!!!

You must use good common sense and judgment as well as control during this exercise particularly with females due to all the delicate organs there...... so with women I am much softer and lighter or I kick them with a hard, stinging roundhouse in the butt to avoid any possibly of injury.
:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 1, 2002)

Ever since day 1 when I started in kenpo I seen my instructor give the "kicking up to the next level" front kick. Every single time he would shake the students hand and say congratulations. Next came step to horse. As he stepped back into his left neutral bow he will ask the student if they are ready for the kick. He will wait for the nod and as he would deliver the front kick he says exhale about halfway through the kick. I really like his approach to this ceremony and everyone of his students have adopted this approach. 
Jason Farnsworth


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 2, 2002)

:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> You must use good common sense and judgment as well as control during this exercise particularly with females due to all the delicate organs there...... so with women I am much softer and lighter or I kick them with a hard, stinging roundhouse in the butt to avoid any possibly of injury.
> :asian: [/B]



Delicate organs?  Do you mean the breasts?  I didn't realize some people kick to the chest when promoting.

How about the stomach?  A female student should be able to take a stomach shot -- any shot -- as well as a male student (relative to mass).  If not, why are they being promoted?  Why would you promote anyone, reguardless of body parts, who cannot take a shot appropriate to level/training?

Besides, no ribs or solar plexi need to break from a stomach shot.

Are you sure you're not just _imagining_ the women's supposed weakness, 'cause "golly, they're just girls!"?    

Peace,
From a guy convinced that women can do anything men can, given the drive and a chance,
Scott


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## Seig (Jun 3, 2002)

I think you are mostly right.  However, I beleive GD was referring to things like the ovaries, which can get ruptured fairly easily by a trained hitter; regardless of muscle tissue.


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## Kirk (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> 
> *
> 
> ...




I have a problem with tech lines on females.  None have ever 
said anything, but anything that requires a 
punch/elbow/whatever to the chest is an uncomfortable situation
for me.  I usually just hit them below the breasteses.  None have
said "hey!  That's not how the tech goes" or anything like that.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



I imagine they recognize that uncomfortableness (probably feel more uncomfortable themselves) and don't want to exacerbate the problem by drawing attention to it.

I've felt that way before, too, about techniques that target the chest area on women.  I usually try to pull the shot more, so no painful contact is made, since a woman's chest is more sensitive to pain than a man's, from what I hear, and no amount of training will make it easier to take a hit to the breast.

At first, I also tried no contact (since it felt "taboo" until I thought it through and realized what was bothering me was sexual mores that don't apply to non-sexual situations) or hitting under the chest area or up by the shoulders.  Now I've gotten over that, and just try for more control.

Peace,
Scott


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> 
> *I think you are mostly right.  However, I beleive GD was referring to things like the ovaries, which can get ruptured fairly easily by a trained hitter; regardless of muscle tissue. *



I'd never heard that ovaries were easy to rupture from an external shot, before.  Interesting.

However, aren't they located lower in the abdomen, under the hip bone, and therefore protected from a stomach shot?  I could be misremembering.  I'll ask my wife, as she teaches human sexuality at Purdue University and makes it a point to keep up on such things.

Peace,
Scott


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

um... the pelvis really only protects organs from shots from the back and sides.  the organs are not protected from a kick to the abdomen.  a woman's reproductive organs are behind the lower abdominal muscles.  a single kick that's too hard, as well as repeated impact to this area can cause fertility problems as well as other issues.

my instructor does not kick women for belt promotions.  however, that doesn't men we're off the hook.  He'll sweep us. Hard.  My last promotion, I had a bruise the size of a large grapefruit on my leg from his kick.

He always makes a point to explain the kick ritual before doing it. He explains the origin, the reason, and if there are girls in the test, why girls aren't kicked in the abdomen. I think that the first part of this explanation is geared towards people watching, and the segment about females is geared towards any black belt who attended the test who might not know our studio's customs.  Kind of a very subtle hint.


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## JD_Nelson (Jun 3, 2002)

I recently tested for yellow and passed  

During the test I executed deflecting hammer and made sure to stick the buckle.  I ended up twisting my instructors knee pretty good when I struck him with the elbow. 

His knee ended up swellling immediately and he could no longer bear weight on it or flex/extend it.  So i got to take a decent punch to the abodomen.  Not bad, but I feel like I cheated myself and maybe even my instructor a little. 

:asian: 

~~~Salute~~~

Jeremy


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

if you're a yellow belt, you prolly didn't get cheated.  the strength of the kick/punch tends to increase as rank gets increased...  we don't even have someone stand behind our orange belts, but we get three guys behind a brown or black belt promotion, cause we know the guy's gonna fall over, if not get air.


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## Kirk (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *if you're a yellow belt, you prolly didn't get cheated.  the strength of the kick/punch tends to increase as rank gets increased...  we don't even have someone stand behind our orange belts, but we get three guys behind a brown or black belt promotion, cause we know the guy's gonna fall over, if not get air. *



In my class you don't get kicked until Green Belt.  All lower belts
get punched.  When I got orange, it was a pretty good hit!


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Scott Bonner _
> I'll ask my wife, as she teaches human sexuality at Purdue University and makes it a point to keep up on such things.
> [/B]



So, I checked with a local expert, my mate, and her manuals on sex organs and women's health and so forth: diagrams galore, and writeups specifically addressing risk to reproductive organs from blunt force damage.  She gave a pretty conclusive argument for why women are no more fragile than men when it comes to the promotion kick.

The debate was over ovary damage.  The ovaries are very low, to the sides (snuggled into pelvic girdle), deep (down with bladder and uterus), small (walnut sized), and protected by muscle and bone (the pelvic girdle, which protects the front as well as the back.  One would be more likely to blow a _kidney_ from a frontal kick than to blow an ovary!  She concluded that there was no significant risk of ovary damage, meaning that women do _not_ need to be coddled like baby kittens during testing!   

That's enough to convince me.  Equal treatment for all, I say!  Women can take the promotion kick just as well as men.

One could reject the data because it comes from medical sources instead of martial arts sources.  But, personally, I trust the medical sources more.

Peace unto you,
Scott
(who is actually a touch iffy about the idea of promotion kicks for anyone, but that's not the point)


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

I actually never thought of ovary damage... more concerned with uterine damage. that organ is pretty much centered in the lower quarter of the abdomen and can be damaged by blunt force trauma.


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

forgot to say...uterus is approximately fist sized. much bigger target than an ovary...

also, something to think about...

is she pregnant?  is there any possibility at all?  even if she doesn't know it...


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

something else to think about...uterus is fist sized...bigger target than ovary...

also...

could she be pregnant?  

women don't always figure this one out right away...attribute morning sickness to flu or whatever if things weren't planned.  She may be testing for a belt and not realize she's a few weeks along.  kicking a woman of childbearing age in that particular spot probably isn't a real good idea under any circumstance.


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

doh.  I wrote the second message fast and it said it didn't post it, so I tried again and rephrased things...didn't mean to respond to myself...I feel stupid now.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

I asked her about the Uterus, too, but not in as much detail, and she thought the Uterus would be safe, too, being so low and deep -- still less at risk than a bladder or kidney from a frontal kick.  However, it was over the phone, so I didn't get to see the diagrams myself, and she didn't take the time to read through the blunt force trauma writeups on uterus (just scanned for ovary and read).

In any case, you are right about losing a pregnancy, once one has been pregnant for a short while.  It's surprisingly easy to misinterpret pregnancy clues, I've heard, especially if one hopes one is not pregnant.

Peace,
Scott


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## Nightingale (Jun 3, 2002)

icky-female-stuff-warning

I don't know this from experience, but I've seen a few friends go through it.  Pregnancy symptoms are easy to misinterpret, even if you want to be pregnant. sometimes its just unexpected, and people think the dizziness and nausea is just "something I ate."  female athletes have notoriously irregular "cycles" anyway, so it could take even longer for an athlete who isn't always regular to know for sure...took a dancer friend of mine almost three months to figure it out. 

there's a reason radiologists (x-ray techs) almost always put a lead vest over a woman's middle, even if she tells the radiologist she's absolutely certain she's not pregnant. A woman, especially if its the first child, may not be completely familiar with the feelings and symptoms of pregnancy. might be ignorance, might be wishful thinking, or whatever, but even if someone is trying to get pregnant, they don't know whether or not they're successful for a few weeks... they may be trying to have a child, test for their belt thinking they're not pregnant, and then find out they are because they miscarry because they got kicked...

all I gotta say is...why risk it?  if you gotta kick, kick the butt, sweep the leg, or do something else.


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 3, 2002)

We could just do what the "tough guys" did back in high school and pound each other in the arm.  :rofl:


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## satans.barber (Jun 3, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *something else to think about...uterus is fist sized...bigger target than ovary...
> 
> ...



I never even though of that until you posted it, but that really is serious and worth considering.

I just don't think it's worth the risk, martial arts is about learning to stop yourself getting hurt, not standing there for a free shot.

Sure, in techniques and sparring you're going to get hit, but with glancing blows or not much force usually, not just a free shot.

Ian.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 3, 2002)

Scott and Nightingale both have great points...

Personally I don't want to "baby" females either due to the fact that when attacked it will most likely be from a male intending to harm her.  Playing patsy with her in the studio does her not good.   Dave Brock and all of us know that.   

However, when testing..... I have kicked women but it really is more of a hard "PUSH" which usually knocks them down!  I do tend to kick or punch Males harder.     I am also aware of the "possibility" of injury to the "female area" and do not want to risk any damage or possible damage that could be deemed done by me.   You open yourself up for a potential lawsuit if the female individual happens to come up with some injury after a promotional kick or punch - even if you do not nor were the cause of the injury.   So, that is why I kick them in the Butt to avoid all possibility of any damage other than that  burning !  lol

just my opinion...
D

:asian:


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## ikenpo (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Scott and Nightingale both have great points...
> 
> ...



I have a tape of SGM Parker at a promotion (Mr. LaRoux's school) and for the ladies he did more of a right ridge hand/ palm slap as he step to about 10:30. He was having a ball because each person was more terrified than the next, but you could tell it all in fun. He did lay into the Black Belts a little more...I saw one guy crumple over his foot and then jump back up.


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## Nightingale (Jun 4, 2002)

hehe... I guess that would work too.


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## ikenpo (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> 
> *hehe... I guess that would work too. *



To the midsection area....NOT TO THE BUTT!!!!!:rofl:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

But I leave the option to the female..... I just don't want to hurt anyone.  I have great control and am not worried because I know what the drill is and how much force to use..... I do enjoy seeing them fall over from the (kick extension)... lol
:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *But I leave the option to the female..... I just don't want to hurt anyone.  I have great control and am not worried because I know what the drill is and how much force to use..... I do enjoy seeing them fall over from the (kick extension)... lol
> :asian: *



I knew you had a twisted side.  I just never knew it was denegrating women:rofl:


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## Nightingale (Jun 4, 2002)

That is an excellent compromise, GD.

My reasoning regarding martial arts is this:

The chance of getting injured is a part of everyday life. Personally, I am probably more likely to injure myself walking down the street than in a karate studio. This is primarily because I am a klutz and can trip over thin air.  

When you fight, you take a chance of getting hit. This is different than standing there letting someone take a shot at you with you standing there stifling all your human instincts to either block the darn thing or get out of the way.   I don't mind getting kicked, I don't mind getting bruised, but if five or ten years down the road I want kids and a doctor tells me I can't have em, I don't want to have to wonder if its because of getting kicked on a belt test... something like that would really make the belt feel kind of pointless.  

As I said before, they definitely don't go easy on us ladies at a belt test. We do get kicked. Hard.  I had a very large bruise that took over a month to go away... was above my knee but not too high up, so I had to be very careful with my clothing and not wear shorts, and since my test was in may, that was kind of annoying, but that would be my only complaint... (girls don't like to show off bruises like guys do LOL) ...not whining about the bruise, just telling the facts.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bonehead _*
> I knew you had a twisted side.  I just never knew it was denegrating women:rofl: *



That's not funny!  Some could mistakenly take you as serious!  

Now say your sorry, kiss  and make it all better!:boing2:

:asian:


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## Scott Bonner (Jun 4, 2002)

I asked Janessa about the Uterus.  She said, and I quote "no way.  It's like a football.  You could take it out, toss it around, and put it back and it would still work."  Gross image, huh?  She pointed out that it was pure muscle, and freakishly resilient.  It has to be to go from being slightly larger than a fist to being as big as a baby.

Also, it is very, very low in the torso, well below the stomach.  However, it raises up when sexually aroused (as blood rushes to the reproductive organs, they push the uterus up a little bit).  I'd hope that wouldn't be relevant in a belt test, though! 

Janessa also stated that blunt trauma can indeed abort a pregnancy, but not until close to the end of the first trimester (and, of course, any time thereafter) due to size of the fetus and protection from the still thick uterin walls.

She stated that one would not become infertile from a stomach shot, even a very hard one.

I'm not trying to be argumentative.  I'm just trying to give more information from the best source I have.


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## KenpoTess (Jun 4, 2002)

As a retired nurse I have seen many types of injuries from blunt force manifest into major health problems.  Kicks to the chest or abdomen can cause Aortic tears & ruptures even if the person has no history of problems.  Contusions from a kick or punch  in the chest/abdomen region can cause blood clots and aneurysms.  Anybody who has a weak musculature shouldn't be kicked or punched forcefully in the body.  I would strongly suggest keeping the (testing) kicks to the Butt.  Males and females, or have them sign a total liability waiver. I know I wouldn't want to hurt someone  unintentionally.
 I blocked a kick with my shin last fall.. ended up in the hospital with not a break in my skin but with cellulitis resulting from the bone to bone hard contact and let me tell you.. I've had broken bones and Cellulitis Hurts far worse and is hellish to deal with~!  So unless you know your students  complete medical history (and the student knows) be careful utlizing  hard kicks to anyone. 

Just my thoughts,

Tess


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 4, 2002)

Well, rather than beat a dead horse..... we have discussed two sides....... now we each need to just follow our guts and do what we feel is the best for us to do.

Thanks all for all the input it was great and eye opening!!


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## Nightingale (Jun 4, 2002)

This has been an informative thread.  Thanks for the info, all.


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## Seig (Jun 5, 2002)

I just work here:idunno:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 5, 2002)

and starts being a push or check?


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## Seig (Jun 5, 2002)

As I understand it, a push is nothing more than an open handed punch....I would think the same is true for a check.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _*When does a punch cease being a punch and starts being a push or check?*



Examine the question carefully........

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 5, 2002)

Ok, after re-examining the question.  A punch ceases being a punch and becomes a push or a check after it has reached it;s target and the weapon becomes an open hand.  I could also say that a punch becomes a check when it has reached it's target then remains in a position to check.  I know there is something else I am trying to get across and cannot find the wording for.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 5, 2002)

Penetration..........
After a strike makes contact with the target and penetrates 3/4 inch impact ceases and then either it becomes a check or a push.
We prefer a check which still is useful rather than a push which just positions....... remember you can have a pressing check...... 

:asian:


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## Seig (Jun 5, 2002)

That is an angle I had not thought about.  That goes in the mental file.:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 6, 2002)

many miss that..... and it is so clear ..... at least to me.  but it makes a lot of sense.  Penetration is an interesting topic and to understand and control it is to me (1/2 the story at least), a strong key to putting the hurt on some one.....

:asian:


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