# Are these effective SD skills?



## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Hatsumi demonstrating Ninjistu skills....

http://movie.motionmanage.com/movie/Community/Chiba/nodasi/nodasi_3.wmv

I ask this in this forum, rather than the Ninjitsu forum because the skills demonstrated look ineffective to me. Starting a thread there saying the top Ninja guy is demonstrating ineffective techniques would be inappropiate and probably against forum rules.

So my question is the thread title. Are the demonstrated skills effective for SD? And if you say yes, then how do you explain all the MMA footage AND the random fight footage of non trained people available online that doesn't look anything like the video of Hatsumi?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 24, 2006)

I would.  

Because most MMA is sports related, and not self-defense oriented. 

Random street fights are most often not between trained martial artists. Like chess, your game and the required skills needed to counter increase the better the opponent.


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## monkey (May 24, 2006)

Hatsumi is powerfull & makes it wok to some exstent.There are other ninja lines that do clean teaching if you want to compair.The Hwarang do --Kook sul won--Hanmusul--SulSado are soild lines.Now these are Korean based so its differant-but, isnt differant a good thing to find.Yet most of what the Japanese display rolls-flips ect are done the same.Dont look at the name or origan of the arts look at the practicle deployment.


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## Kreth (May 24, 2006)

monkey said:
			
		

> Hatsumi is powerfull & makes it wok to some exstent.There are other ninja lines that do clean teaching if you want to compair.The Hwarang do --Kook sul won--Hanmusul--SulSado are soild lines.Now these are Korean based so its differant-but, isnt differant a good thing to find.Yet most of what the Japanese display rolls-flips ect are done the same.Dont look at the name or origan of the arts look at the practicle deployment.


There is no such thing as Korean ninjutsu. 
As for the vids, as probably one of the few people on the forum who's had the opportunity to take a swat at the man, I would say that it's very effective. The video is misleading because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so fluid that he makes very skilled attackers look like fumbling idiots.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

It also seems he's playing to the crowd a bit. There seem to be some "little jokes" in there.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I would.
> 
> Because most MMA is sports related, and not self-defense oriented.
> 
> Random street fights are most often not between trained martial artists. Like chess, your game and the required skills needed to counter increase the better the opponent.


-So what makes the demonstrated techniques effective for SD? When ninjas spar does it in any way resemble what Hatsumi demonstrates? If he (or anybody with those skills)tried those techniques against a non complying person(in a sparring session or at an ATM at 2AM) could he do them?

-Yes, MMA is a sport. What makes its techniques ineffective for SD? Since that's what you're immplying.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as Korean ninjutsu.
> As for the vids, as probably one of the few people on the forum who's had the opportunity to take a swat at the man, I would say that it's very effective. The video is misleading because Hatsumi sensei's movement is so fluid that he makes very skilled attackers look like fumbling idiots.


-He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So what makes the demonstrated techniques effective for SD? When ninjas spar does it in any way resemble what Hatsumi demonstrates? If he (or anybody with those skills)tried those techniques against a non complying person(in a sparring session or at an ATM at 2AM) could he do them?
> 
> -Yes, MMA is a sport. What makes its techniques ineffective for SD? Since that's what you're immplying.



We went over the whole MMA as Self Defence crap before. You lost the debate.


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## cfr (May 24, 2006)

Beyond the shadow of a doubt, they are 100% effective against a totally cooperative, non resisting opponent, as demonstrated in the video.

These questions always lead down the sport vs. self defense road. I personally think that if you have that nagging voice in the back of your head saying "this wouldn't really work", "I wouldnt really leave my arm out for this guy to do this", etc., then it's not something you should train in, or buy into. If you have that nagging voice then its best just to chalk it up to not being for you. It really doesnt matter what anyone else says, listen to your gut.


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## Kreth (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.


That's a common problem with video and one I've been critical of in the past. I'm not known for being an overly compliant uke and I got tossed around like a little kid by Hatsumi sensei and the Japanese shihan.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.


So? In a teaching, demonstration environment, should they constantly go full tilt on an old man? Having seen a video with him at a higher speed, it was hard to follow. Makes sence to slow it down do people can see. Of course, picking a highlight clip apart is really hard.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> We went over the whole MMA as Self Defence crap before. You lost the debate.


-Add to this thread's discussion or ****.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

Given that the man is... what... 75?

I'd say it's impressive.

How effective is it, well for MMA the stuff he was demoing I'd say not very.  But as not every use of force is in a one on one fight, or even anything that can really be called a fight it's hard to say.

Some of it looked feasible, other stuff questionable.  I'd like to see some younger guys going at it a little rougher to make any judgement, but I get the impression for a old guy he'd handle himself alright if someone tried to take his wallet.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> So? In a teaching, demonstration environment, should they constantly go full tilt on an old man? Having seen a video with him at a higher speed, it was hard to follow. Makes sence to slow it down do people can see. Of course, picking a highlight clip apart is really hard.


-I'm not saying at all they should go full tilt. I understand that demonstartions are just that. I'm saying the techniques look ineffective. For instance, at one point he's taking out two guys. He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it. What makes Hatsumi's so effective? I'm arguing that it isn't.


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## Phadrus00 (May 24, 2006)

From what I could tell from the video many of the techniques were using effective joint manipulation and body mechanics and are similar to techniques I have seen in Aikido, jui-jitsu, silat and FMA.  I think they could be very effecting in the hands of a skilled practicioner such as the one in the video.  Hell I think I am going to watch it a few more times and steal a few things.. especially the nipple pinches and the ankle locks!  *grin*

Rob


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## cfr (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> What makes Hatsumi's so effective?


 
Because he's a Grand Master! Duuhh!


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Add to this thread's discussion or ****.


Witty. I'll remember that.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it.



Wrist twists work, just got to catch the guy by surprise, and apply it fairly quickly, I occasionally break out the wrist lock throws when I'm feeling like being annoying, can be done to healthy strong guys... once...  and if you catch them by surprise.

In a less fight like scenario, someones being a pain and needs to be a little more compliant they can also work, again, used successfully in that sort of situation.

I prefer having a good "fighting" skillset to back that stuff up as nothing is 100% reliable, but that's just me


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I'm not saying at all they should go full tilt. I understand that demonstartions are just that. I'm saying the techniques look ineffective. For instance, at one point he's taking out two guys. He uses a standing twisty wrist lock. That doesn't work. An average healthy male can pull out of it. What makes Hatsumi's so effective? I'm arguing that it isn't.


He's been doing this over 60 years. Think that makes him qualified to decide the effectiveness.  Of course, since there was no audio, and my understanding is he doesn't teach in english, we miss much of what was being explained. Again though, we encounter the differences between UFC fantasy, and traditional arts. Notice the shots to the back of the head at one point.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> Wrist twists work, just got to catch the guy by surprise, and apply it fairly quickly, I occasionally break out the wrist lock throws when I'm feeling like being annoying, can be done to healthy strong guys... once... and if you catch them by surprise.
> 
> In a less fight like scenario, someones being a pain and needs to be a little more compliant they can also work, again, used successfully in that sort of situation.
> 
> I prefer having a good "fighting" skillset to back that stuff up as nothing is 100% reliable, but that's just me


-I would say twisting the wrist definately works as a component of a more involved technique. But a wrist hold as the only point of contact with the uke is very low percentage and won't work against a resisting opponent 99% of the time. And who doesn't love a quick wrist twist as a grip break.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> He's been doing this over 60 years. Think that makes him qualified to decide the effectiveness. Of course, since there was no audio, and my understanding is he doesn't teach in english, we miss much of what was being explained. Again though, we encounter the differences between UFC fantasy, and traditional arts. Notice the shots to the back of the head at one point.


-So, basically "Hatsumi says so" is your argument? That's nonsense.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So, basically "Hatsumi says so" is your argument? That's nonsense.


I don't know who is more removed from reality. You or Phil.

That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that his 60+ years of experience makes him more qualified than you or I. But, I have more experience with Buj. training than you do.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I don't know who is more removed from reality. You or Phil.
> 
> That isn't what I'm saying. I'm saying that his 60+ years of experience makes him more qualified than you or I. But, I have more experience with Buj. training than you do.


-How do you not see that that is the same thing as "Hatsumi says so"? You're going on his word and nothing more. Kinda like people went on the word of the church in Rome that the world is flat.


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## Andrew Green (May 24, 2006)

Hatsumi says so is good enough in some circles, just like Rickson sasy so is good enough in others.

I think both circles are wrong, because I can't do what either of them can do


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Are the demonstrated skills effective for SD?


Yes, most certainly.  More importantly the skills you cannot see in the demonstration that are right before your eyes.



			
				RoninPimp said:
			
		

> And if you say yes, then how do you explain all the *MMA footage* AND the random fight footage of *non trained people* available online that doesn't look anything like the video of Hatsumi?


I think you just answered your own question.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -How do you not see that that is the same thing as "Hatsumi says so"? You're going on his word and nothing more. Kinda like people went on the word of the church in Rome that the world is flat.


I'm not going on his word. Never spoke to the man. Never met him. I am however going on the opinion of numerous others, all of whom are much more qualified than I to make that judgement. They tell me he is the real deal. I have seen nothing to change that.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Yes, most certainly.  More importantly the skills you cannot see in the demonstration that are right before your eyes.
> 
> 
> I think you just answered your own question.


He did.

And David, my apologies.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -He may be fluid, but his uke's were going VERY light.



True!  But you are only seeing part of it.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

[soapbox/rant]
Out of all these self defense threads I have read, why do they all boil down to someone asking the same old question for which there are already hundreds of threads? Which BTW is...  Is my MMA better than your art? or whatever?  I like a good debate and to talk shop, but geesh...  These threads are getting old.  
[/soapbox/rant]

Cheers folks!


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## cfr (May 24, 2006)

RP, you are obviously missing the magical, mystical , bigger picture of it all.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Yes, most certainly. More importantly the skills you cannot see in the demonstration that are right before your eyes.
> 
> 
> I think you just answered your own question.


-Please elaborate on these skills that are right before my eyes.

-OK, how about footage of anybody, of any skill level, fighting for real, or for sport. None I have ever seen looks like what Hatsumi demonstrates. Can you point me in the direction of footage that has resisting oponents being defeated with those techniques? With the research power that the interweb provides, I'm sure that if it exists, it can be found for all to see...


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> I'm not going on his word. Never spoke to the man. Never met him. I am however going on the opinion of numerous others, all of whom are much more qualified than I to make that judgement. They tell me he is the real deal. I have seen nothing to change that.


-So opinions of those whose only evidence is more opinion of hypothetical technique is enough to form an accurate opinion? That is about as shaky as it gets...


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> True! But you are only seeing part of it.


-So the most important part of the demonstration isn't in the demonstration? Man, those ninjas sure are secretive...


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## cfr (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Please elaborate on these skills that are right before my eyes.
> 
> -OK, how about footage of anybody, of any skill level, fighting for real, or for sport. None I have ever seen looks like what Hatsumi demonstrates. Can you point me in the direction of footage that has resisting oponents being defeated with those techniques? With the research power that the interweb provides, I'm sure that if it exists, it can be found for all to see...


 
Thats an awesome question, and I agree. We never, ever, anywhere, see fights that look like these techs do. Not sport, real SD, no where!!! Im sure now it will be chalked up to something like "someone with these skills doesnt need to get into fights" or the like.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So opinions of those whose only evidence is more opinion of hypothetical technique is enough to form an accurate opinion? That is about as shaky as it gets...


Don't you have to go cuddle with some hot sweaty Gracie wannabe to test those mad UFC skillz of yours?  Stick to your sport fighting stuff, and leave the traditional stuff to the adults.

The opinions I am talking about here, are from individuals who have in fact used these same techniques, in combat, in life or death situations, in self defense. Not in a sport fighting, rule covered, refed event at 9pm on Spike TV. I have seen the same pointed uneducated question asked as you have, on a dozen boards, over 10 years. The answer is always the same.  Those who know, understand and believe. Those who lack the knowledge, sit back and laugh.

If I only need my fist to break you, I will never draw my gun. If I need my gun, it will default to speed and skill.  In the case of Dr. Hatsumi, he has both.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So the most important part of the demonstration isn't in the demonstration? Man, those ninjas sure are secretive...



No it is there.  Look harder.   (seriously).


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

> The opinions I am talking about here, are from individuals who have in fact used these same techniques, in combat, in life or death situations, in self defense.


-Details please. Otherwise ****.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> No it is there. Look harder. (seriously).


-Please elaborate. I've watched it several times.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

cfr said:
			
		

> Thats an awesome question, and I agree. We never, ever, anywhere, see fights that look like these techs do. Not sport, real SD, no where!!!


Your right!  What you were watching was a training seminar, not a throwdown, UFC match or Mugging.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Details please. Otherwise ****.


Ah, the sewer denizen traditional response. You forget your location mudpit trollkin. The details are there, here, on MAP, on EBudo, on BudoSeek, even in that sewer USENET. I can't be bothered to spoon feed it to you.

In fact, some of the answers are in this thread, but you will refuse to acknowledge them as you'll only be happy if you get to beat up an old man (or rather try) so you can proudly bang on your inbred chest on how your mad UFCfu is so great, again.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Please elaborate. I've watched it several times.


You lack the training to understand.


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## cfr (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Don't you have to go cuddle with some hot sweaty Gracie wannabe to test those mad UFC skillz of yours?


 
Curious, have you ever been cuddled? Ever not been able to get someone off of you that you outweigh by 60 lbs, and knowing that if you bite him, he will bit you back from a much better vantage point? As stated several time, Im a middle of the roader between sport and SD, but reading comments like these make me realize how clueless SD purists really are about the sport guys.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> Ah, the sewer denizen traditional response. You forget your location mudpit trollkin. The details are there, here, on MAP, on EBudo, on BudoSeek, even in that sewer USENET. I can't be bothered to spoon feed it to you.
> 
> In fact, some of the answers are in this thread, but you will refuse to acknowledge them as you'll only be happy if you get to beat up an old man (or rather try) so you can proudly bang on your inbred chest on how your mad UFCfu is so great, again.


 


> You lack the training to understand.


-So you refuse to argue your point with evidence? Will you later claim you won this argument too?


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Please elaborate. I've watched it several times.


What you see is only part of the picture.  The other part you will never get from the video even though it is right in front of your eyes, is the feeling of it. I could sit here and try to explain to you how to have a powerful punch without having to use an enormous amount of strength and you would say "yeah sure...", but if I demonstrated to you (at 10% speed) the punch only once, you would immediately go WOW that is amazing!  I have personally witnessed LEOs who have years of police training yell out "Holy ****, I never would have known it was that powerful!"  My advice is, find a good Bujinkan instructor nearby, I am sure they will be happy clarify these concerns (meant in a humble way).


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## Blotan Hunka (May 24, 2006)

Im kind of on the fence with this type of stuff. Almost all of the examples you see are demonstrations. The typical throw your arm out and pause for the guy to do his stuff thing. The person getting tossed around (IMO) always seems to be embellishing the effect on him. You dont want to show diserspect to the demonstrator by resisting which is only polite and you are there to let him demonstrate techniques after all. On the other hand, effective or not, Mr. Hatsumi is quite spry and in good shape for his age. I hope I can be tossing out forward rolls and manuvers like that when I reach his age. So he must be doing something right. To be honest though I would like to see a ninjutsu vs. MMA "no rules" match to see just how effective the empty hand stuff is. Philosophically however if the Ninja knew a death match was in the making I would hope he would either not show up or shoot the opponent the night before and make it appear to be a random street crime or something like that.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -Details please. Otherwise ****.


Please have a little maturity with your posts.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

cfr said:
			
		

> Curious, have you ever been cuddled? Ever not been able to get someone off of you that you outweigh by 60 lbs, and knowing that if you bite him, he will bit you back from a much better vantage point? As stated several time, Im a middle of the roader between sport and SD, but reading comments like these make me realize how clueless SD purists really are about the sport guys.


Yes. and, Yes.

I have great respect for true graplers, and the pretzles they can turn you into. Enjoyed (well, my mind did, my body hated every minute) a good discussion and demo once of the "pro wrestling" holds, and how they had been modified to look cool but not really hurt, and then demos of the original moves, which hurt alot. Quite alot in fact. Have also watched alot of the UFC stuff on Spike the last few months, and been quite enjoying it. 

In fact, I've on 2 occations had to try and get someone off of me who outweighed me by over 60 lbs.  But in 1 case, it was a she, and I'd rather not talk about that night if thats ok with you.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So you refuse to argue your point with evidence? Will you later claim you won this argument too?


Sorry pump, but posting a dozen links isn't on my todo list today.
I told you where to look. That is enough if you are really interested, and not just looking to stir up trouble.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> What you see is only part of the picture. The other part you will never get from the video even though it is right in front of your eyes, is the feeling of it. I could sit here and try to explain to you how to have a powerful punch without having to use an enormous amount of strength and you would say "yeah sure...", but if I demonstrated to you (at 10% speed) the punch only once, you would immediately go WOW that is amazing! I have personally witnessed LEOs who have years of police training yell out "Holy ****, I never would have known it was that powerful!" My advice is, find a good Bujinkan instructor nearby, I am sure they will be happy clarify these concerns (meant in a humble way).


-I have shared training space with Bujinkan guys. I have felt some of their techniques. I was not impressed. The problem I have with that argument is many things hurt when demonstrated, but can't be pulled off in a similar fashion when resistance is met. Thanks for the insult free discussion.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Please have a little maturity with your posts.


-This was not directed at you. I only give back what EBA gives first. Everybody else has been great, even if they disagree.


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> Whenever you want to get on the mat to train, you just let me know. The first class is always free. We'll see if you still refure to it as "cuddling" afterwards. -RoninPimp



No thanks. I have competent training options at hand. Just for the record, I will always refer to it as "cuddling", even if Royce himself pops every joint in my body. It just might be hard to make out, what with all the screaming, moaning and gasping I'd be doing.  Wait.  That sounds rather obscene. Ah...forgitaboutit.

opcorn:


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## shesulsa (May 24, 2006)

_*Moderator Note:*_

*Keep this conversation polite and respectful and refrain from further sniping.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Sr. Moderator*


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> You dont want to show diserspect to the demonstrator by resisting which is only polite and you are there to let him demonstrate techniques after all.



There is a key factor that is over-looked regarding our training (structural integrity).  The key to being able to resist is having balance, meaning...  hips over feet, shoulders over hips, head over shoulders.  Just like playing Jenga, you start moving the pieces out of alignment the structure becomes an unstable base from which to launch attacks (and this is only a basic elementary part, there is FAR MORE) and resistance becomes futile...  Sure I could try a wrist lock on you while we stand toe-to-toe and you are are balanced, and you will be able to resist it.  Let me change your structure slightly, now it is futile to try and resist.  

Try having someone take you off balance (backwards) where you have no support, no matter how strong you are, you cannot pick up either foot without falling or being crushed.  There are many other factors but this is a simple and overly exagerated demonstration. 

 I won't say anymore about it, just "feel" it.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> No thanks. I have competent training options at hand. Just for the record, I will always refer to it as "cuddling", even if Royce himself pops every joint in my body. It just might be hard to make out, what with all the screaming, moaning and gasping I'd be doing. Wait. That sounds rather obscene. Ah...forgitaboutit.
> 
> opcorn:


-For the record. I did not post what EBA posted as my quote. It was part of negative feedback I gave EBA for his never ending insults.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 24, 2006)

Why is it that we are all so awestruck by the exotic? Staying in shape, (which seems to be neglected by a lot of these people.props to Hatsumi for physical example), learning some basic techniques and perfecting them, and being proficient with modern weapons never seems to satisfy people. There has to be some mystical, complicated "system" that satisfies peoples "invincibility desire". Give me a well conditioned body, expertise in some basic boxing/kicking/grappling, proficiency in guns, knives, sticks and environmental weapons and the right mindset to use them all and keep all the exotic esoteric crap IMO. But thats just me, everybody has the right to spend their own time and money however they please and while we all have the right to our opinions I will never belittle someones choice of pastime. Some people seem to have overinflated opinions of themselves with delusions of "warrior grandeur" but most are just good people doing what makes them feel good. In the end its more the ability and willingness of the person to use ANY fighting skills that will prevail vs. "my kung-fu is superior to your kung-fu".


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I have shared training space with Bujinkan guys. I have felt some of their techniques. I was not impressed. The problem I have with that argument is many things hurt when demonstrated, but can't be pulled off in a similar fashion when resistance is met. Thanks for the insult free discussion.


Sorry to hear that.  There are many other factors involved there as well, try going to a seminar, you might get a better sampling. -- No offense intended to the guys you trained with.



Your welcome!


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> There is a key factor that is over-looked regarding our training (structural integrity). The key to being able to resist is having balance, meaning... hips over feet, shoulders over hips, head over shoulders. Just like playing Jenga, you start moving the pieces out of alignment the structure becomes an unstable base from which to launch attacks (and this is only a basic elementary part, there is FAR MORE) and resistance becomes futile... Sure I could try a wrist lock on you while we stand toe-to-toe and you are are balanced, and you will be able to resist it. Let me change your structure slightly, now it is futile to try and resist.
> 
> Try having someone take you off balance (backwards) where you have no support, no matter how strong you are, you cannot pick up either foot without falling or being crushed. There are many other factors but this is a simple and overly exagerated demonstration.
> 
> I won't say anymore about it, just "feel" it.


-So how do those concepts apply to the unrealistic techniques Hatsumi demonstrates?


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So how do those concepts apply to the unrealistic techniques Hatsumi demonstrates?


That my friend you are going to have to figure out for yourself.  We cannot all be spoon fed.


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## Bigshadow (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So how do those concepts apply to the unrealistic techniques Hatsumi demonstrates?


If you are ever in central Florida and would like to do a little training with us, let me know, we would be happy to have you visit.  Maybe we could answer your questions. 

This is an invite not a challenge.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Sorry to hear that. There are many other factors involved there as well, try going to a seminar, you might get a better sampling. -- No offense intended to the guys you trained with.
> 
> 
> 
> Your welcome!


 


> That my friend you are going to have to figure out for yourself. We cannot all be spoon fed.


-I would argue that if the concepts and techniques of Hatsumi's teachings are real and practical, then it could be explained with words or video that wouldn't require my $ and/or a huge time comitment.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> If you are ever in central Florida and would like to do a little training with us, let me know, we would be happy to have you visit. Maybe we could answer your questions.
> 
> This is an invite not a challenge.


-Thanks. I understand the difference completely!


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -I would argue that if the concepts and techniques of Hatsumi's teachings are real and practical, then it could be explained with words or video that wouldn't require my $ and/or a huge time comitment.


If there was full audio, if it wasn't a highlights reel, if we understood Japanese, and the Japanese, it might make sence faster. Those with the depth of experience can see farther into what little was offered than you can. It's that simple.  It's like explaining "Blue" to a blind man, who has never seen.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> If there was full audio, if it wasn't a highlights reel, if we understood Japanese, and the Japanese, it might make sence faster. Those with the depth of experience can see farther into what little was offered than you can. It's that simple. It's like explaining "Blue" to a blind man, who has never seen.


-And if a bullfrog had wings...


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## Edmund BlackAdder (May 24, 2006)

You very simply lack the experience and mindset to understand.
There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
There are those with a little training.
There are those who train in some art, but not yours
There are those who train in your art.

Against the first 2, common skills will work.
Against the third, you must up your game.
Against the last, you must be a true artist.

Part of what he teaches is very traditional. It is the passing down and preservation of techniques, that as taught, are not of immediate use today. But there is a need to preserve knowledge as so much is lost to us each year. Sport fighters do not need this. It would distract them, confuse them, and lessen their sport-fighting game. Ken Shamrock has no need to know how to defend against an armour wearing sword swinging attacker.

Part of what he teaches will work, in the street, if needed. But, why would I use the fancy stuff, if a right hook is all it takes to plant your lame *** out?

Do you understand, or must I get a smaller spoon?


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## shesulsa (May 24, 2006)

_*Moderator Warning:

Gentlemen, enough of this.  Please see that this conversation turns polite, respectful and snipe-free.

Feel free to use the "ignore feature" if need be.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Sr. Moderator*_


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## Captain Harlock (May 24, 2006)

Having had the pleasure of watching numerous videos of Dr. Hatsumi's skills, I have no doubt in his ability. He appeared to be enjoying himself in the clip. While it was not full speed techniques, his speed and precision is most assuredly, excellent, even for a man half his age.


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## Don Roley (May 24, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> There has to be some mystical, complicated "system" that satisfies peoples "invincibility desire".



I see nothing of that in the Bujinkan training I do in Japan. Nothing mystical about it. Luring a guy into a fully commited attack so that you can use that power against him can be explained in some pretty flowery ways by some of the snake-oil salesmen every art has. But it all seems pretty simple to me.

Of course, this type of play and deception really will not go over in the ring when the other guy is there to compete and _knows_ you are not an idiot, scared or unskilled. But if you look at the tapes of people pulled over by police that try to attack them, fully commited attacks are the standard and not the types of things you see in the UFC.


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Edmund BlackAdder said:
			
		

> You very simply lack the experience and mindset to understand.
> There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
> There are those with a little training.
> There are those who train in some art, but not yours
> ...


-So if you have no experiance in Ninjitsu, how are you so able to unnderstand what they do so well. 

-I have no problem with preserving obsolete battle techniques for history's sake. But my question was about SD effectiveness. Are you then saying that the demonstrated techniques are not SD effective?


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## RoninPimp (May 24, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I see nothing of that in the Bujinkan training I do in Japan. Nothing mystical about it. Luring a guy into a fully commited attack so that you can use that power against him can be explained in some pretty flowery ways by some of the snake-oil salesmen every art has. But it all seems pretty simple to me.
> 
> Of course, this type of play and deception really will not go over in the ring when the other guy is there to compete and _knows_ you are not an idiot, scared or unskilled. But if you look at the tapes of people pulled over by police that try to attack them, fully commited attacks are the standard and not the types of things you see in the UFC.


-So why train a flowery technique(like was demonstrated) for a big commited attack, if something simpler will do?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 24, 2006)

RoninPimp said:
			
		

> -So why train a flowery technique(like was demonstrated) for a big commited attack, if something simpler will do?


I'll quote here as the answer to your question is in the post prior to the one I am quoting.

"There are untrained attackers, common street thugs.
There are those with a little training.
There are those who train in some art, but not yours
There are those who train in your art.

Against the first 2, common skills will work.
Against the third, you must up your game.
Against the last, you must be a true artist."


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## Rook (May 25, 2006)

On the one hand, I acknowledge that these are demos, not application and that this is a seminar not a challenge match.  On the other, I have difficulty believing that some of these things could actually work as shown.  

One of the annoying things about arts like Hatsumi's and the systema shown is that they post copius amounts of training footage but none at all of them actually applying what they learned (ie fighting non-compliant non-practiticioners of their art).  I would appreciate it if someone would find a way to post some BBT vs. something else or being used in a streetfight somewhere so we would know what we're looking at.  

Only seeing these short excerps from training, it is hard to tell anything about a style except that it seems to use compliant ukes and have throws.  

The assertion of Hatsumi's great fighting ability aside, I haven't seen anything that seems to reinforce the efficacy of what he teaches.  I don't necessarily doubt that its there, but it would really help his case if the BBT guys could post something besides the most crazy looking training drills.  Until then, everyone can only make assumptions based on what little they see - and that tends not to be very positive.  

Only one way to find out if Hatsumi can fight for real.  Someone has to see if Helio Gracie is up for one last match.


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## Hand Sword (May 25, 2006)

A match would still have rules. So, the reality of it would be questioned. A better solution...Helio and Hatsumi, in the school yard, at midnight, no hold barred, with witnesses and video recorders!


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## Bigshadow (May 26, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> On the other, I have difficulty believing that some of these things could actually work as shown.
> 
> Only seeing these short excerps from training, it is hard to tell anything about a style except that it seems to use compliant ukes and have throws.
> 
> The assertion of Hatsumi's great fighting ability aside, I haven't seen anything that seems to reinforce the efficacy of what he teaches.


With all due respect...  The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques.  It is alive, it must be felt.  In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet.  Other people do, some sort of do.  

Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train.  I am sure your questions will be answered.

I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING.  I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply.  Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 26, 2006)

Hatsumi is one of those rare individuals that immediately
impresses almost anyone he comes into contact with.
If you have a chance to train with him then I would 
suggest that you do so and the sooner the better!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## MJS (May 26, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> With all due respect... The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques. It is alive, it must be felt. In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet. Other people do, some sort of do.
> 
> Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train. I am sure your questions will be answered.
> 
> I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING. I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply. Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.


 
I've pretty much just lurked on this thread, due to the fact that its really not a new discussion, per se, but in fact that same debate with a different title.

I did see this post by BigShadow and thought I'd comment. IMHO, its very well said! I think that his statement applies not only to BBT, but to all arts. Many times I've found myself thinking, "Hmm...this move from "X" art, it doesn't even look like it'll work." But I've had to take a step back, and realize that considering I don't have the training in "X" art, how can I really judge it, until someone who does understand it, can show me how it really works!

People tend to bash, put down, lose faith, or whatever else, in something because THEY are unable to make something work or THEY don't fully understand it, so they assume it must be garbage. 

There is a BBT school not too far from where I live. I have had the chance to meet the instructor on more than one occasion and get a small taste as to what this art is all about. Speaking from the little that I was exposed to, I can attest that it is effective.

Mike


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## Rook (May 26, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> With all due respect... The fact of the matter is that BBT is not a set of dead techniques that can be put on display in the store window for people to walk by and browse the techniques. It is alive, it must be felt. In reality, you do not have the eyes to see the eficacy of it, yet. Other people do, some sort of do.
> 
> Again, if you really want your questions answered, go to a good Bujinkan dojo or seminar and train. I am sure your questions will be answered.
> 
> I will repeat, you CANNOT learn by watching, you can only learn by DOING. I know I haven't offered anything compelling for you, so I don't really expect a positive reply. Just remember what I said, maybe one day you will see it with new eyes and know precisely what I am talking about.


 
I don't understand how alot of things work yet.  It may be that Hatsumi can indeed pull these things off against a resistant opponent - however I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that.  What I do see doesn't tell me very much at all - but it does display some rather compliant training parteners, which to me reflects poorly.  It may be that these things also work against non-compliant people - I just wish someone would post a video of that instead of the rather tired videos of people collapsing with a touch and being thrown halfway across the room with a slight toss.  

There is a judo video, for instance, that greatly impressed me of Mifune.  http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3346298601525244862    This video starts out with his opponent resisting somewhat... later on towards the end he does randori against larger, stronger opponents and easily tosses them around.  However, it is crystal clear even to a non-judoist that these people are not taking falls for him.  That is not at all the impression that I got of Hatsumi.


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## Don Roley (May 26, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> however I just don't see anything that would lead me to believe that.



See being the key word. Some things you have to experience to fully understand. There are a lot of good martial artists I have met with here in Japan and elsewhere that have reacted and flowed with my movements so well that to an outsider it looks like I am going with what they are trying to do. But I can tell you that I was trying my level best to nail them. They don't grunt, yell or anything like that. But when I do something, they react so well that it is like trying to push the wind. 

Again, it is not just Hatsumi or the Bujinkan. There are a lot of little old men that smile a lot that have caused me to log some serious frequent flyer miles. But looking at what they do from the outside, I can't believe my eyes that they make it look so easy.


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## Blotan Hunka (May 26, 2006)

Reminds me a bit of Aikido. Another "looks cool but will it fly?" art IMO. I honestly dont know enough about any of it to make a judgement as to its effectiveness. Its just an impression that I get.

One thing that I have noticed is that from all the Ninja books I had from the 80's (Hayse's stuff) the impression I had then was that this BBT stuff seemed "different" more "brutal ninja combat" compared to how Im seeing it now (more Aikido'ish). Maybe its just the internet/video revolution that lets me see the stuff in motion. I dont know. Just my take dont anybody get too upset because it really doesnt mean much.


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## Rook (May 26, 2006)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> See being the key word. Some things you have to experience to fully understand. There are a lot of good martial artists I have met with here in Japan and elsewhere that have reacted and flowed with my movements so well that to an outsider it looks like I am going with what they are trying to do. But I can tell you that I was trying my level best to nail them. They don't grunt, yell or anything like that. But when I do something, they react so well that it is like trying to push the wind.
> 
> Again, it is not just Hatsumi or the Bujinkan. There are a lot of little old men that smile a lot that have caused me to log some serious frequent flyer miles. But looking at what they do from the outside, I can't believe my eyes that they make it look so easy.


 
Fair enough.  It would be easier to see stuff, IMHO, if I saw something with full resistance instead of drills.  As that apparently isn't happening, I'll have to wait until I have the skill to crosstrain seriously and find out for myself.


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## Bigshadow (May 27, 2006)

Blotan Hunka said:
			
		

> One thing that I have noticed is that from all the Ninja books I had from the 80's (Hayse's stuff) the impression I had then was that this BBT stuff seemed "different" more "brutal ninja combat" compared to how Im seeing it now (more Aikido'ish).


That can be a touchy subject with many.  Probably best for a different or new thread.  However, again, that is a direct result of....  well... something different, I won't offer my opinion openly for.  I would be happy to tell you my opinion privately though.

EDITED LATER:  Let's just say, people have progressed.


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## Brandon Fisher (May 30, 2006)

Sometimes the most awkward techniques and ones that don't look like they work when done at that speed are some of the most painful most effective techniques.  I am not sure I would want to experience the amount pain Hatsumi Sensei could apply but want a treat it would to be able to train with him


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## Davejlaw (May 30, 2006)

This thread has gotten ridiculous already but I do have to add this: Would thousands and thousands of Japanese ninjas in feudal Japan over hundreds of years PLUS all the people that study budo-taijitsu today waste their time studying an art that as ROnin says "doesn't work"? Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?


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## Blotan Hunka (May 30, 2006)

I think that argument as a few flaws. First there are apparently some (not me) who doubt the authenticity of the arts lineage. Second arts "preserved" for hundreds of years and turned into "arts" instead of combat techniques may have changed significantly from the techniques that were used in combat "back in the day".


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## Brandon Fisher (May 30, 2006)

Davejlaw said:
			
		

> Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?


Exactly my point.


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## Davejlaw (May 30, 2006)

Blotan: It is my understanding, and I'm a student of HapKiDo so I'm no expert, that Hatsumi is the last living person to actually be trained by the last living ninja (who is long gone now) So, Hatsumi should be teaching the NON-watered down techniques from the combat ninja repertoire (unless he's witholding information and secrets!)


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## Rook (May 30, 2006)

Davejlaw said:
			
		

> This thread has gotten ridiculous already but I do have to add this: Would thousands and thousands of Japanese ninjas in feudal Japan over hundreds of years PLUS all the people that study budo-taijitsu today waste their time studying an art that as ROnin says "doesn't work"?


 
Bad arguement.  Lots of stuff either could be done better in a different manner, or was designed as specific counters to techniques or movements no longer common, or in situations that are unlikely today.  In addition, like most TMAs, the lineage of Hatsumi's art is hardly rock solid.  



> Does Hatsumi have to break an arm of a student at full speed to show you his techniques work? Do the Gracies hurt, maim and kill in their instructional videos to demo the effectiveness of their techniques?


 
The Gracies HAVE broken the arms of people who did not tap out.  They have choked people out - probably into the hundreds.  The Gracies tend not to rely on demonstrations with compliant partners from their own system for their public face.  Their videos and internet clips are filled with full-contact fights that end in surrender of non-compliant opponents (not students or friends).


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## Flatlander (May 30, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> The Gracies HAVE broken the arms of people who did not tap out. They have choked people out - probably into the hundreds. The Gracies tend not to rely on demonstrations with compliant partners from their own system for their public face. Their videos and internet clips are filled with full-contact fights that end in surrender of non-compliant opponents (not students or friends).


Certainly. However, when they or their endorsed instructors are in the process of teaching their students, they slow things down a tad, don't they? They allow their students the opportunity to feel. We don't all start at full speed, correct? Given that, why are we using a seminar video wherein Hatsumi is teaching his students the ways of his art as evidence as to the efficacy of the art?

I have a question: how many people out there that watch televised pro fighting events say to themselves, "I bet I could kick that guy's *** on the street." I'd wager that happens more often that we'd like to think. Seems to me that the person most qualified to make that distinction would be the person on the mat, no? The person feeling what's going on? Seems logical. Pretty easy to sit there and watch and make a judgement or assumption about what's really going on there.

So, with that in mind, I'd just like to close here suggesting that I believe Hatsumi's ability to handle himself in a physical confrontation to be more than adequate. He's been training for a long time. Never met the man, but I've met a couple that have, and I certainly don't question their ability. But then again, I've felt it.


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## Davejlaw (May 31, 2006)

I have a decent understanding of the human anatomy and its limitations. The Hatsumi techniques are not so different from Hapkido techniques and there is no reason why they would be ineffective. I don't know why there is so much doubt surrounding this man and his system (perhaps because ninjas are involved and the man is 76) but if learned correctly it should work as well as any martial art. If combined with a groundfighting art it should make a pretty well rounded fighter.


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## Bigshadow (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> was designed as specific counters to techniques or movements no longer common, or in situations that are unlikely today.


Here in lies the issue.  People think that somehow because we are so advanced today technologically that it also extends to every aspect of our existance, but it is a fallicy to believe that.  

Do you really think humans today attack other humans any different than they did 1000 years ago?  What other than a strike, kick, tackle, or other various but limited amount of things a human can do physically, do you think people do today?  Unless there are some people walking around that have 3 arms 4 legs, and two heads and tail, I doubt seriously we are seeing anything in human physical combat that is NEW that they didn't see 1000 years ago.

This is regards to unarmed conflict.


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## Davejlaw (May 31, 2006)

Yes Shadow, that was part of the point I was trying to make. Thanks!


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## Rook (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Here in lies the issue. People think that somehow because we are so advanced today technologically that it also extends to every aspect of our existance, but it is a fallicy to believe that.
> 
> Do you really think humans today attack other humans any different than they did 1000 years ago? What other than a strike, kick, tackle, or other various but limited amount of things a human can do physically, do you think people do today? Unless there are some people walking around that have 3 arms 4 legs, and two heads and tail, I doubt seriously we are seeing anything in human physical combat that is NEW that they didn't see 1000 years ago.
> 
> This is regards to unarmed conflict.


 
Not so much "advanced" as different.  There are loads of stuff in many traditional arts geared towards defeating specific tactics or techniques that are not common in streetfights or MMA matches or whatever today.  

I met a guy who was explaining how various Bak Mei kung fu movements countered certain Shaolin tactics or attacks.  These particular movements would not have been particularly effective against, say, boxing, but they served that goal.  Its basically like having a good sprawl in your techniques for a kickboxing match - its a useful tactic, but not against the opponent you are facing.  

For another example, look at the effect of clothing on koryu JJJ.  Some systems have throws that work on a man in a kimono, but won't work on the tighter judo gi.  Judo has throws that will work on the gi, but not on a bare-chested opponent.  These techniques require modification before they can be applied in many modern street situations.  

So yes, people attack differently even in different parts of the world today without even looking at countering trained fighters.


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## Rook (May 31, 2006)

Flatlander said:
			
		

> Certainly. However, when they or their endorsed instructors are in the process of teaching their students, they slow things down a tad, don't they? They allow their students the opportunity to feel. We don't all start at full speed, correct? Given that, why are we using a seminar video wherein Hatsumi is teaching his students the ways of his art as evidence as to the efficacy of the art?


 
That was pretty much exactly my point - we need to see application in order to be able to make conclusions about the efficacy of the art.  The video doesn't tell us much.


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## Bigshadow (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> Not so much "advanced" as different.  There are loads of stuff in many traditional arts geared towards defeating specific tactics or techniques that are not common in streetfights or MMA matches or whatever today.


:bs:  I can't believe I used *that*.  Are you looking for things that are effective in competition or combat?  They are not the same!  If you want competition, I can't offer anything there.


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## Bigshadow (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> For another example, look at the effect of clothing on koryu JJJ.  Some systems have throws that work on a man in a kimono, but won't work on the tighter judo gi.  Judo has throws that will work on the gi, but not on a bare-chested opponent.  These techniques require modification before they can be applied in many modern street situations.


They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another.  If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another. If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.


 
Good point!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## shesulsa (May 31, 2006)

It's also a big mistake to think that all traditional martial artists train exclusively in a traditional" manner.  Curriculum is often "traditional" however many arts are including supplementary training such as working out in street clothes with shoes on, reality-based attacks and defense against such.

Traditional training should not be solely aligned to a laundry list of things to do to get the next rank - it is about learning rudiments and approaches and training the mind and body. 

So the next question would likely be, 'If traditional training isn't enough then why bother?'  The answer to that is the unteachable lessons.  The self-analysis and development of one's own skill set that must be realized through time, exposure and other tenets of traditional training.


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## Rook (May 31, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> It's also a big mistake to think that all traditional martial artists train exclusively in a traditional" manner. Curriculum is often "traditional" however many arts are including supplementary training such as working out in street clothes with shoes on, reality-based attacks and defense against such.
> 
> Traditional training should not be solely aligned to a laundry list of things to do to get the next rank - it is about learning rudiments and approaches and training the mind and body.
> 
> So the next question would likely be, 'If traditional training isn't enough then why bother?' The answer to that is the unteachable lessons. The self-analysis and development of one's own skill set that must be realized through time, exposure and other tenets of traditional training.


 
Well, most martial training is changing to some degree - with the exception of certain hard-core koryu people, most martial arts are practiced differently than they were even 10 years ago.


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## Kreth (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.


And here I thought I was the only one that trained my throws while wearing heels... :uhyeah:


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## Rook (May 31, 2006)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> They are still throws and they are not dramatically different from one another. If someone is caught up in the minor nuances of where to put their hands and do not understand the principles of taking one's balance and throwing them regardless of whether they are wearing a miniskirt and heels or a suit of armor, they need to stop chatting in the forum and train more.


 
So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth?  The differences aren't minor nuances.


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## Kreth (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth? The differences aren't minor nuances.


I don't think he was saying that at all. You need to adjust throws depending on those variables, or in some cases use a completely different throw or technique.


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## Bigshadow (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth?  The differences aren't minor nuances.


They are minor.  I believe you are caught up in the mechanics of the throw, rather than the principles of the throw.  Once you understand the principles, adjusting the mechanics is easy enough.

See, our banter here demonstrates that arts you say are static and unrealistic, more specifically you stated Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, is far more alive than you realize.

This is all I am going to say on the subject as I had already vowed to do, but my lack of personal discipline got me back in here.  This time I won't say anything further, especially since this thread has lost it's thought provoking appeal.

My advice is, believe what you want.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 31, 2006)

Definately Budo Taijutsu is an alive martial art.  Soke continues to show various henka that allow one to continuously apply principles effectively.
I definately do not find Budo Taijutsu to be a stagnate martial art.  If you have never trained with Sensei then I suggest that you go and experience it. (it is a major eye opener)

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Stealth (May 31, 2006)

I have trained in both MMA and Ninjutsu...  
Ninjutsu is VERY effective in real world scenarios. I take it for self defence, and am involved in MMA for fun/sport. Ninjutsu techniques break bones/joints to end the fight quickly, something that cannot be used in sport... But is very effective on the street.


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## Don Roley (May 31, 2006)

Rook said:
			
		

> So you can throw all people the same, regardless of style, training level, size, dimensions, clothing and so forth?  The differences aren't minor nuances.



I have found that dealing with different types of clothing and such from a variety of eras help me to be a bit more broad minded and able to adapt to different situations. The trick is to try to understand the movement, then understand the principles behind the movement as you change from one situation to another.

Armor training may sound silly- unless you have ever gone against someone who is bundled up for a harsh winter. And the idea of hitting someone and them not feeling it is something that anyone facing drunks or others have to deal with. Hakama are hard to move in- but then again so is a lot of fashion. Some clothing is restrictive like armor, and you may have backpacks or other things on you.

And of course I train in normal clothes as well. Some people go through their entire martial arts training in one sort of outfit or another. They probably get used to that and can't think outside the box. Dealing with multiple ways of moving kind of helps you to not have an exclusive mindset to deal _only_ with the uniform you use in the dojo or the ring.

It needs a form of balance.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 31, 2006)

Nice post Don and well put!

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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