# Wing Chun punch is like a bullet



## wtxs (Oct 17, 2016)

WTF ???  It all boils down to is that a Wing Chun punch and a bullet's (projectile) ultimate goal is to end an confrontation quickly and effectively.

After looking at Futsao's clip and Geezer's comment on "How to train a solid punch",  I don't seems to remember anyone has cover the subject on the "terminal effects" of a punch, though I would ATTEMPT to give it a SHOT at it.

With limited knowledge and understanding of the subject matter, what outlined below is JUST my take, feel free to add what is relevant.  If you think I had too many beers while writing this, you can present your own version, but PLEASE don't let this become another 100 page slam fest.

Without going into complicate scientific details, lets look at the moment of impact ... the fist or bullet hits the body parts, what is the effects of the generated power/force had on the target. There are many different way of punching to obtain an desired out come, lets look at the punch with and without the so called "push" as per Futsao and Geezer.  It's an given that both will do damage to the intended target area, but to what extent? 

#1 The "push" punch - at the moment of impact, part of the energy is expended in moving the target, leave what is left to do damage.

#2  Punch Without the "push" -  very little energy is used to move the target, leaving the majority to do damage at the entry point and inside the target.

Mastery of #2 and the mechanics thereof, I'll defer it to the experts.  I would like to see some one take this and run with it.

Here is where the bullet ... in relationship to terminal effect comes in.  As with a punch, a bullet can do a little or do a lot of damage depending upon placement or design type, it could cause immediate or eventual death.  Just an side note, I've been reloading my own ammo since the 80's, and still plenty left to learn.

The following are my simplistic views.  Terminal effect of a bullet could be described as how much damage it can do, the damage it cause inside an target (body) is commonly called "wound channel or cavity".  Different design bullet cause different wound patterns, lets look at lead (LRN) or full metal jacketed (FMJ) round nose and lead (LHP) or metal jacked hollow point (JHP), below are some of the breviate findings of some medicals examiners.

Using FMJ and JHP bullets:

#1 FMJ enter target, providing it did not hit any bone, may or may not deform and seldom expand more than its size, creates only an initial wound channel slightly bigger than its diameter, then taper off as it penetrate through and out the other side, taking all remaining energy with it.

#2 JHP by design will expand upon entering, some open up like a mushroom and some like a flower with razor sharp pedals, the larger size makes it harder to completely penetrate, therefore all available energy goes to create massive internal damage now called wound cavity.  In cases where these pedals separate from the metal jacket and continues to travel, those fragments now will cause additional wound channels.

Just an side note, death can result from either bullet designs.

The common denominator of WC #2 and bullet #2 has to do with maximum damage by way of effective energy transfer into the target, some had referred this as energy/power dump (not the #2 we human do).


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Personally I don't care if the punch also pushes, and I don't see a real distinction.  

As long as the punch hits hard and fast, if it continues through and knocks it the guy backwards, that would be a desireable result.


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## Juany118 (Oct 17, 2016)

the issue with the punch "pushing" is not only the loss of damaging energy but speed.  On the chain punch thread I showed a video where the Sifu is using rice bags to train relaxing as soon as one impacts, this has as much to do with being able to return that arm to a ready position so you can launch the next punch quickly.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> the issue with the punch "pushing" is not only the loss of damaging energy but speed.  On the chain punch thread I showed a video where the Sifu is using rice bags to train relaxing as soon as one impacts, this has as much to do with being able to return that arm to a ready position so you can launch the next punch quickly.


I do not believe that there is a loss of damaging energy, as long as it was a legitimate punch to begin with.  

If it was so slow that the punch was actually only a push, well that is different.  But if it comes in and lands hard as a punch, then there is no loss of energy.

If one is in too much of a hurry to retract, then the punch is in danger of being superficial, with no penetrating damage.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I do not believe that there is a loss of damaging energy, as long as it was a legitimate punch to begin with.
> 
> If it was so slow that the punch was actually only a push, well that is different.  But if it comes in and lands hard as a punch, then there is no loss of energy.
> 
> If one is in too much of a hurry to retract, then the punch is in danger of being superficial, with no penetrating damage.



There is an akward fine line there of trying to punch past the target and not leaving it out there too long.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is an akward fine line there of trying to punch past the target and not leaving it out there too long.


Definitely, I do agree, no dispute there.

I'm not saying a quick punch cannot also be powerful.

 But I am saying that a deeply penetrating punch is also powerful.

I see this argument from time to time that if you move your opponent back with your punch, or do so to the heavybag, then it's "only" a push and lacks power.  I disagree with that notion provided, as I said, that it lands properly as a punch first, and continues with the penetration.

There are nuances involved, but I think the argument oversimplifies it and tries to make it a simple black/white, yes/no, either/or kind of issue.  It isn't.


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## Juany118 (Oct 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is an akward fine line there of trying to punch past the target and not leaving it out there too long.



Agreed.  There is also an article I will have to find that actually talks about both the issue you raise and the idea of push vs hit showing the maths.



Flying Crane said:


> I do not believe that there is a loss of damaging energy, as long as it was a legitimate punch to begin with.
> 
> If it was so slow that the punch was actually only a push, well that is different.  But if it comes in and lands hard as a punch, then there is no loss of energy.
> 
> If one is in too much of a hurry to retract, then the punch is in danger of being superficial, with no penetrating damage.



You are correct but if you watch the other video I mentioned it actually goes a little into it.  It's not about being in a hurry to pull the hand back, it's about relaxing the millisecond after you transfer the injury so you can pull the arm back faster... Essentially you are training your punch to the "smooth is fast" principle. (If that makes sense.) So basically, using the rice bag, you are withdrawing your fist quickly enough that the bag rebounds off the wall vs your sticking there too long making it stick to the wall.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Definitely, I do agree, no dispute there.
> 
> I'm not saying a quick punch cannot also be powerful.
> 
> ...




There is a level of over penetration that while it feels like you are punching hard starts to make you punch less hard while requiring more effort.
easy to see in slow mo.

fist stops. head moves.


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## Juany118 (Oct 17, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> Definitely, I do agree, no dispute there.
> 
> I'm not saying a quick punch cannot also be powerful.
> 
> ...



I agree with the fact there is more nuance, example there is a dispute as to whether Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch was actually a hit or a push.  There is a fine line between the two no doubt.  My only point is that if you cross that line, you can start to lose damaging power.  Where that line is (in theory), I need to find that article I stumbled across and didn't book mark.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Yes, all agreement on these issues.  If the details aren't nailed correctly, then any kind of punch is sub-optimal.  

My method tends to hit thru.  We don't muscle it with the arm and shoulder.  Rather, we drive it from the feet and legs, and rotate thru the waist.  The arm and fist are kinda just along for the ride.  We discontinue the penetration when the resistance of the target tells us to.  You know it when you feel it.

It lands as a strike.  It continues to penetrate, and can drive a fellow across the room.  It is powerful, it is destructive, and it is a punch, not a push.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> I agree with the fact there is more nuance, example there is a dispute as to whether Bruce Lee's famous 1 inch punch was actually a hit or a push.  There is a fine line between the two no doubt.  My only point is that if you cross that line, you can start to lose damaging power.  Where that line is (in theory), I need to find that article I stumbled across and didn't book mark.


People actually debate whether the one inch punch is more push than punch?  If they were ever on the receiving end, it's pretty obvious.


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## KPM (Oct 17, 2016)

This greatly simplifies the physics of a basic punch, but at the most basic level....F = M * A.   A punch that "pushes" is losing acceleration upon contact and therefore generating less force.  A punch that "impacts" rather than pushing releases its force all at once without it dissipating as it de-accelerates.


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## drop bear (Oct 17, 2016)

KPM said:


> This greatly simplifies the physics of a basic punch, but at the most basic level....F = M * A.   A punch that "pushes" is losing acceleration upon contact and therefore generating less force.  A punch that "impacts" rather than pushing releases its force all at once without it dissipating as it de-accelerates.



More force.  But a crappier punch.  I think. 

In *physics*, a *force* is any interaction that, when unopposed, will change the motion of an object. In other words, a *force* can cause an object with mass to change its velocity (which includes to begin moving from a state of rest), i.e., to accelerate.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 17, 2016)

Even if the punch decelerates as it penetrates, if the initial impact is the same, then the damage it does is at least the same.

As it penetrates, the struck body will be suddenly and traumatically displaced, causing potential further damage.  The head gets whipped around when the side of the chin is punched, for example.  That whiplash alone can be very damaging.

F=MA, sure of course.  What is the mass of a punch?  The fist itself?  The arm with it?  The entire body behind it?  How well is the guy rooted, and how well does he use his legs to drive the punch and how does that affect mass?  A punch does not need to accelerate.  It can be moving at a constant speed when it impacts.  If the speed is sufficient AND the body behind it is stable enough for it to land solidly, then the punch is effective.  That holds true whether you do or do not seek to penetrate further.

Newtonian physics is relevant, but not as straight forward as that.

Hey, I'm not going to further a debate on it.  If you are happy with how you punch, keep at it.  I'll do the same.


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## geezer (Oct 17, 2016)

My knowledge of physics is pretty much at a grade-school level. I'm really much more of a visual and tactile sort of person. All I know is that you want to transfer as much of your force from your fist to the target as possible, in as little time as possible. Anything that slows that transfer (or decelerates the impact) like ...say padding, gloves, headgear, or crappy technique ...is going to make the punch less effective. In short, here's how I look at it:






Physics is great, just over my head. Generally, I prefer to get solid coaching and just try to_ feel _the difference.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 17, 2016)

At my last wing chun school, there was a difference in training between a "snapping" punch and a "heavy" punch. The heavy one did have more pushing power to it than snapping, but was still a legit punch.


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## Juany118 (Oct 17, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> People actually debate whether the one inch punch is more push than punch?  If they were ever on the receiving end, it's pretty obvious.




Well the reason is based on an event where a partner resisted it and the crowd started laughing... Bruce got pissed and then when the partner was looking at the audience suckered him and then he went down.  Now I think it's a pucnch, heck it actually uses the WC punch principle the video I keep referencing illustrates.
www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/amp3093/the-science-of-bruce-lees-one-inch-punch-16814527/

The important bit for the WC issue is the quote...



> Once the punch lands on target, Lee pulls back almost immediately. Rose explains that this shortens the impact time of his blow, which compresses the force and makes it all the more powerful.



But it doesn't mean that some people don't look at it and think it is more a push than a punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 17, 2016)

drop bear said:


> There is a level of over penetration that while it feels like you are punching hard starts to make you punch less hard while requiring more effort.
> easy to see in slow mo.
> 
> fist stops. head moves.


More more more. And this is why I'm getting a high speed video camera for use at my school.  I was going to say that at least he kept his eyes open and didn't close his eyes but he totally didn't see that punch at all.  I don't know what he was looking at but it wasn't the punch that hit him.  I like how you can see the transfer of energy from the punch, you can see it shoot out the other side of his face.  His right ear wiggles as the energy leaves his head.

The other thing I noticed is that he seems to get twice from one punch. I say this because I watched the feed back on the punching hand. The first impact is from the glove but the fist continues to travel (you can see that the forearm goes into the glove). The second impact is from the fist that continues to travel through the end of the glove I don't know about physics but I'm pretty sure having double impact like that can't be good. It's almost like a front end car crash where the first impact is the front side of the car, and the secondary impacts are things that continue to move forward after the initial impact as stopped.  I'm curious to know how a bare knuckle impact looks being that there is no glove to factor in.

Does anyone know how difficult it is to break boards with boxing gloves on?  Is it possible for a gloved fist to break the same number of boards that a bare fist can break

  My Sifu says that the longer the fist stays on the target, the more impact feedback the puncher will get.  In other words some of the energy will come back into the arm instead of staying in the target.  He says if it the punch is efficient then the energy will stay in the target and jump around causing additional internal damage.

As for my thoughts I think impact of punch aren't going to be accurately define by hitting bags, pads, wood, or other solid surfaces.  Even the ballistic dummies aren't going to give an accurate understanding and here's why.  Our body isn't solid like a punching bag or any other object that we punch.  Our bodies are made of fibers, bones, liquids and pockets of air that all react differently to impact.  An explosion in the air doesn't have the same effect as an explosion in water.  So if the same amount of explosive reacts differently in air and water, then I can only assume that energy from a punch doesn't transfer energy the same way when punching solid objects vs an object (our bodies) that is made of fibers, tendons, fluid, and pockets of air.

When I get hit I can tell if a punch is a push or not.  Push punches don't hurt as much and those punches that hit hard but don't push have a different effect in I can feel the energy of that punch inside my body more than outside of my body. But that's only one aspect because throwing weight behind the punch has a different feeling than a punch that doesn't prolong the impact.  This is where my theory comes in play

A punch is not like a bullet.  A punch is like a Swiss army knife.  Different punches are used for different areas on the body and how that punch is use and how long it stays on the body is determined by the surface that is being struck.  I don't know much about Wing Chun, but from the conversations Wing Chun practitions seem to focus only one type of punch, in other kung fu systems, there is more than one type of punch. A punch to the head isn't the same type of punch that is thrown to the body.  So if Wing Chun only has one way to throw a punch then I wonder if they are hitting the same surfaces, for example, the bone and the face like cheek bones and the sternum can be considered "hard surfaces" as well as the chest, provided that someone has a hard chest from working out.

At least for Jow Ga, the punches that we use will vary depending on what we are targeting.  When I say varied I mean that we intentionally hit with different parts of our fist. There are 9 different striking surfaces on a Jow Ga fist.


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## geezer (Oct 18, 2016)

@JowGaWolf --Wing Chun (WT/VT/WC) definitely has different ways of delivering punches, as well as palm-strikes and so forth. There are also different ways of releasing energy depending on the target and desired effect. But really what matters is hitting your target and hitting it hard. The rest is icing on the cake.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2016)

geezer said:


> @JowGaWolf --Wing Chun (WT/VT/WC) definitely has different ways of delivering punches, as well as palm-strikes and so forth. There are also different ways of releasing energy depending on the target and desired effect. But really what matters is hitting your target and hitting it hard. The rest is icing on the cake.


I guess a lot gets lost in the Hollywood portrayal of Wing Chun


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## KPM (Oct 18, 2016)

[_Even if the punch decelerates as it penetrates, if the initial impact is the same, then the damage it does is at least the same._

---Not true.  Read some of the further responses from others.  Impact is also relative to the target itself.   And compare  two punches that both land on the ribcage traveling at the same speed with the same mass and therefore the same impact.  One punch accelerates through the target while the other one decelerates and dissipates its force.  Which punch will do the most damage?  I would posit that the first punch is not "pushing", it simply has better penetration.  The second punch "pushes".


_As it penetrates, the struck body will be suddenly and traumatically displaced, causing potential further damage.  The head gets whipped around when the side of the chin is punched, for example.  That whiplash alone can be very damaging._

---That is only because hitting someone on the chin so that their head whips around offers little resistance to the punch compared to hitting them in the soft abdomen or in the chest.  There is little deceleration when hitting someone on the chin.  Therefore the punch penetrates and doesn't "push" much more easily than striking the abdomen or chest.


_ If the speed is sufficient AND the body behind it is stable enough for it to land solidly, then the punch is effective.  That holds true whether you do or do not seek to penetrate further._

---Any punch can be effective.  Heck, a 10 year old girl can throw an effective punch depending upon the circumstances.  But not every punch is optimal.  I like to punch optimally for the circumstance.  

_
Newtonian physics is relevant, but not as straight forward as that._

---Like I already said,  F = M * A over simplifies things, but at least it gives a way to start thinking about the dynamics.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 18, 2016)

KPM said:


> [_Even if the punch decelerates as it penetrates, if the initial impact is the same, then the damage it does is at least the same._
> 
> ---Not true.  Read some of the further responses from others.  Impact is also relative to the target itself.   And compare  two punches that both land on the ribcage traveling at the same speed with the same mass and therefore the same impact.  One punch accelerates through the target while the other one decelerates and dissipates its force.  Which punch will do the most damage?  I would posit that the first punch is not "pushing", it simply has better penetration.  The second punch "pushes".
> 
> ...


As I said, if you are happy with your methods, keep at them.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 18, 2016)

Or Hong Kong, as it were.


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## Juany118 (Oct 18, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess a lot gets lost in the Hollywood portrayal of Wing Chun



Very much so.  I was simply talking about the "stereotypical" punch but my Sifu teaches us that punching is situational after you are no longer a novice.  I actually, for general striking, prefer palm and elbow strikes over punches personally.


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## wtxs (Oct 18, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> www.popularmechanics.com/science/health/amp3093/the-science-of-bruce-lees-one-inch-punch-16814527/



Thanks for finding the article.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> People actually debate whether the one inch punch is more push than punch?  If they were ever on the receiving end, it's pretty obvious.


It's a short jab with a lot of body weight going into the punch.  It's the typical mechanics for a kung fu punch in general.

The article from popular mechanics gets one thing wrong about the punch, it's not the hips that is twisting it's the waist.  The force that the waist generates from twisting is more than what the hips generate. One only has to look at baseball, golf, and hockey, to get a good idea of just how powerful the waist is.  The stronger the core is the more powerful the punch can be.  Bruce Lee had a really good core.  The article makes the mistake of calling the short jab as a flick.  The one inch punch is impressive but the thing can be done with a zero inch punch.  In other words the fist can actually be on the target and still deliver the force of a punch.

It was is interesting is to read how training affects the brain. "_The altered white matter allows for more abundant or complex cell connections in that brain region._" This is a good thing especially as a person gets older.  "_Lee earned his brainpower the hard way, with many years of practice_."  I'm glad that they put this because it means that the improved white matter can be obtained by anyone.  One of the things that students in my school say is that Kung Fu hurts their brain (I guess that's from the new connections being made).

Martial arts may also help prevent and lessen motor skill diseases where the brain and the body have a difficult time in communicating. This makes sense when I see old people do martial arts and they are able to move so well, yet non-martial artists seem to lose the ability to move without struggles.


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