# Is It Leung Ting or His System



## Nicholas82555 (Jul 5, 2010)

I can understand the dislike by some concerning LT but is it LT or his system? Let's separate the apple and orange. You can have an excellent car dealer whose a con artist with exceptional skills but you as a practitioner can learn the skills but how you determine to use the art of persuasion is up to you for better or for worse, that's a personality issue not a skill only you can address.


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## coffeerox (Jul 5, 2010)

It's difficult to answer.  On one hand, he trained Jackie Chan, and some of his students like Kernschpect, Boztepe has had success with it.  On the other hand, he seems like such a con-artist, sometimes he just doesn't care and wants to make as many mcdojo's as possible.  His system is designed to make money.  I've seen him teach before and he seems pretty crazy.  He once walked out of the room and walked back in, just to convey the idea and concept of a tan sao.  I'm sure that he knows HIS stuff, but teaching ability may not be as good as other Sifu that I've seen.


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## Chat Noir (Jul 5, 2010)

I had a lot of respect for him before I heard he beat up his girlfriend severely....and it's not the first time he had encounters with women that went south...I lost respect then when I saw he was showing one face to the public and another to those in his personal life.  I don't respect that in the least - con artist is a good term for what his does.  BTW - he taught Jackie nothing, just showed him some moves probably for Rumble in the Bronx where he uses the Mok Jong.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 5, 2010)

So therefore, it's possible that his students who have their own schools......just may have a different attitude and respect for the art than their master. I'm trying to separate the system from the man. How does the LT system in itself compare to the other WC systems. Let's go beyond training under him, if that's possible. Ip man produced well known teachers but each one is responsible for their acts BUT is the SYSTEM effective which they teach...............I'm through once I get an answer to the system's effectiveness and not the man.    Thanks


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## dosk3n (Jul 6, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I'm through once I get an answer to the system's effectiveness and not the man. Thanks


 
Its been a few weeks since ive been on here so Im just catching up on things but arnt I correct that you dont currently practice Wing Chun but are looking at schools for it? Or am I thinking of someone else.

If I am correct and the above comment is meaning you will go to the class if you find out that it is effective?

All systems are effective IMO. Take a stick, walk up to a blind man and smack him in the head. That system is effective  

or

Take a stick, walk up to a blind man, hand him the stick and help him learn to walk in public by feeling for obsticles with that stick. That system is also effective.

Its the persons choice how he uses that stick. So if like I mentioned you are just trying to find out if you should go to a LT system school then my answer is you should go. Its your choice how you will use that system and how you will take it in and understand that system. Its your journey.

And if it is terrible you can always come back here and tell us about it


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> So therefore, it's possible that his students who have their own schools......just may have a different attitude and respect for the art than their master. I'm trying to separate the system from the man. How does the LT system in itself compare to the other WC systems. Let's go beyond training under him, if that's possible. Ip man produced well known teachers but each one is responsible for their acts BUT is the SYSTEM effective which they teach...............I'm through once I get an answer to the system's effectiveness and not the man.    Thanks



here is a video showcasing Kernspecht's Blitz Defense system:





Like I said before, Boztepe and Kernspecht learned from LT, took his system and made it work for them.  It's not bad, I would learn it myself if it was available.


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## Nicholas82555 (Jul 6, 2010)

Excellent analogy....I've gots to keep remember this one.... touche)))


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2010)

coffeerox said:


> here is a video showcasing Kernspecht's Blitz Defense system:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually the system *is* available in Phoenix Arizona. There is a "true-believer" still teaching WT under the LT banner, there's a guy in Scottsdale teaching Emin Boztepe's EBMAS WT, and _then there are the guys I've gone with_ who originally learned LT's stuff directly from him, but currently associate with a guy who also worked with Keith Kernspecht in Germany. The system itself is excellent. It is unfortunate that LT's business practices, especially in the later years, discredited the art he taught so well early on (I trained with him earlier, from 1980-1992). PM me if you are interested in getting together.


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> Ip man produced well known teachers but each one is responsible for their acts BUT is the SYSTEM effective which they teach...............I'm through once I get an answer to the system's effectiveness and not the man.    Thanks



Nicholas--my advice is to visit a school and watch the teacher interact with his students. If he fits what you are looking for, of course you'll want to further verify that he's teaching the real thing and that his lineage is authentic. But, if the teacher's not right for you, the lineage doesn't really matter, does it?

A last word... watch out for "true believers". No system is perfect for all people in all situations! Good luck.


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## coffeerox (Jul 6, 2010)

> Actually the system *is* available in Phoenix Arizona. There is a  "true-believer" still teaching WT under the LT banner



Do you mean Keith Sonnenberg? Because he's in Scottsdale, not Phoenix and it's an impossible trip for me


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## hunt1 (Jul 7, 2010)

It's the system! You can go to you tube and look at any video of anyone that learned the system and with 1 exception you can clearly see it's the system. They all show the same core weakness and fault.

 Solid Wing Chun does not rely on a student ' making it work' or ' so and so made it work' etc etc. You will never hear that a student of HKM ,TST or WSL took the system and was able to make it work. It should just work as taught right out of the box.


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> It's the system! ...Solid Wing Chun does not rely on a student ' making it work' or ' so and so made it work' etc etc. You will never hear that a student of HKM ,TST or WSL took the system and was able to make it work. It should just work as taught right out of the box.



Please allow me to respond to this philosophically, _in a general sense_ without speaking to a specific MA or WC lineage. As a trained artist and art teacher, as well as martial artist, it's a topic to which I've given some considerable thought.

I've never seen a _system_ so good that you can teach it to an idiot, with no ability, no drive, and no discipline and find that it will still work! on the other hand, I _have_ seen second-rate martial arts taught to first-rate fighters, and they still make it work... although admittedly being  disadvantaged.

It's this synergy between the science or "system" and individual that makes what we do an "art". Science demands _replicability_. If any two competent  lab-technicians perform the identical experiment using identical procedures, they will get identical results. 

With an art, any two _individual artists_ (be they musicians, painters, sculptors, dancers, swordsmiths, _martial artists_, or whatever) may employ identical techniques, but the results are not replicable, they are _unique to the individual_. The results may be similar, but they are still unique... that's why we use the term "one of a kind" to describe true works of art. I believe the same is true of the martial _arts_ as much as we try to make it into _science_. And it will stay that way until individual martial artists are replaced by identical robots!

Perhaps the problem is just that we live in an age that glorifies "science" over "art". We love to use words like "science" and "system", thinking that they imply a superior level of logic and achIevement. It's worth remembering that long before the era of modern "science" which barely dates back to the enlightenment, brilliant artists and craftsmen used the same logical progression we now call the "scientific method" to solve problems through experimentation and develop unequaled handiwork. But in a pre-industrial era, those achievements were still dependent on the synthesis of knowledge with the skill and "touch" of the artist. After all, isn't this kind of artistic mastery achieved through hard won knowledge the very essence of what is implied by the term "kung fu"?


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## coffeerox (Jul 9, 2010)

> I've never seen a _system_ so good that you can teach it to an  idiot, with no ability, no drive, and no discipline and find that it  will still work!


I learned this the hard way.  I thought my job was so easy and that my teaching is good, so I thought it was going to produce a competent worker with relative ease and did not turn out that way because the student himself was not serious and had no discipline whatsoever.



> After all, isn't this kind of artistic mastery achieved through hard won  knowledge the very essence of what is implied by the term "kung fu"?


Exactly!  Kung fu doesn't just apply to martial arts, it applies to everything.  The term means skill achieved through hard work and practice.  

That's why I said what I said in my thread (and people related that as bragging about MA skills).  While I'm still new to my MA journey, I carry with me my past experiences that resulted in being successful in those things.  A lot of people took that as an overblown ego, but I see that as confidence, knowing that I can absorb the knowledge, put it into practice and refining it until it's perfect.


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## yak sao (Jul 9, 2010)

hunt1 said:


> _It's the system! You can go to you tube and look at any video of anyone that learned the system and with 1 exception you can clearly see it's the system_. *They all show the same core weakness and fault.*
> 
> 
> 
> At the risk of starting a full blown pi$$ing contest, what are these weaknesses and faults you see in WT?


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 9, 2010)

a matter of opinion...call him or blame him...the proof is in the pudding..he 
*did* organize and *modernize* an ancient art....bringing both an organized and a systematic approach.GM Kernspecht..and many other notables...
and rather than everyone running their mouth...why not bring it to the school?anonymously? EBMAS teaches the same approach..put your technique where your mouth is.I had no problem since I didn't show up for the first day with an attitude....(no one knew me from Adam) I humbled myself,and showed business,rather than where or who I was with or from.(besides the point)We should...(those of us who trained under his lineage, be it direct or indirect)show *some respect*.....
otherwise lets point out other lineages failure to produce effective fighters,as is evident.(am I PC?) Sifu Steve Brandon, Sifu Robert Jaquette,Sifu Emin Boztepe, Sifu Jeff Webb,GM kernshpecht,Sifu Gutierrez, and on and on and on.....my hat/respect goes off to you!!!!!with respect to other schools that produce *real effective* Wing Chun Fighters.Yes,I prove my **** works out of the box.nuff said! (cofferox fyi; blitz is condensed,shortcut.real; is a long workout road ahead..sorry to disappoint you.) really......


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## geezer (Jul 9, 2010)

yak sao said:


> hunt1 said:
> 
> 
> > _It's the system! You can go to you tube and look at any video of anyone that learned the system and with 1 exception you can clearly see it's the system_. *They all show the same core weakness and fault.*
> ...


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## coffeerox (Jul 10, 2010)

> (cofferox fyi; blitz is condensed,shortcut.real; is a long workout road ahead..sorry to disappoint you.)



disappointed about what?


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 10, 2010)

or anyone for that matter......everyone wants quick and now,my daddy can beat up your daddy...etc,etc.I don't want to stand on this podium anymore...I want to help others,without being opinionated or arrogant.
That is all.end of story.....
:mp5::roflmao::lasma::soapbox:


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## hunt1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Yak Sau and anyone else.

 I would be willing to discuss what I said in more depth but only if everyone is discussing the same thing.  Right now it is clear from posts that we are not. This is also a common problem when discussing on a forum one person talks about "A" the other "B" and things go round and round.

 For example there are to different types of fighting being discussed. One is a fight in a bar or when you think its about to hit the fan etc etc. The other is when 2 skilled trained fighters square off. No element of surprise, no question of intent.
 Many things work well against the untrained,surprised or drunk etc. Many of these same things will not work as well against a trained prepared opponent.
 I focus my discussion and comments on fighting other highly skilled people in a fair non surprise situation be it in the ring,cage or just a  friendly spar against those from different backgrounds .

 From my view point if you can handle skilled people be they boxers ,wrestlers MT etc you can handle untrained thugs bullies and drunks.

 This is the viewpoint I will discuss from.


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## hunt1 (Jul 10, 2010)

Also to be fair my post was really meant to tweak Geezer not start a true WT sux thread. With my leg and knee problems the chances of me driving to Phoenix again anytime soon are remote. So I figure I owe him a rib or two since we didn't meet up.

 The problems with WT are not unique to Leung Tings methods other systems share them.

 For a basic idea just go to you tube compare what you see of WT stand up vs boxing . Early Mike Tyson vids are very good example's.I am not talking about hand usage. Hands are no big deal and the least important thing. What differences do you see in the body usage?

 And Geezer is correct unless we meet in person all the talk in the world might not explain what I am trying to get at. For example a top student of a sifu who used to call me all the time to discuss wing chun came to learn from me 6 months ago. Poor guy didn't have a clue and I had to start at the very beginning even though his Sifu assured me that he, the sifu , knew what I was talking about and could perform it and was teaching it.


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## qwksilver61 (Jul 10, 2010)

I wish you the best matters.....if I was something else...would you care? shchict mihpt?


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## geezer (Jul 11, 2010)

qwksilver61 said:


> I wish you the best matters.....if I was something else...would you care? shchict mihpt?



OK Qwk., time to lay off the sauce! LOL


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## mook jong man (Jul 11, 2010)

qwksilver61 said:


> I wish you the best matters.....if I was something else...would you care? shchict mihpt?


 
I'll have what he's having.    :drinkbeer


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