# Virtue and Ethics in the Martial Arts?



## Bob Hubbard

Too many people think that you study martial arts to learn self defense, or  fighting.  Why is it then that many of the old masters become reclusive and paint, or write, or simply sit and think?  Miyamoto Musashi who is considered by many to be one of the finest swordsmen in Japanese history spent his last years living in  a cave, painting nature pictures.  Why?  What did he know, that we have failed to see?

We hear much talk of the values and virtues of a martial artist or what can be found in a deep study of the arts.  What we often times overlook is the understanding of what those virtues are, and how they interact.

I'm going to offer a few definitions.  You might not agree with all of them, and that is perfectly fine.  Everyone has a unique viewpoint based on their own influences and experiences.  These come from my own, so may differ somewhat.

First, the difference between "Morals" and "Ethics".

We often times hear about "Morals".  Morals are defined as "The lesson or principle contained in or taught by a fable, a story, or an event.".  The 10 Commandments in the Judaic and Christian faiths are examples of morals.

Ethics are a little different.  Ethics are defined as "motivation based on ideas of right and wrong".

Another way to look at it is that ethics are founded on logic, and provide a systematic basis for human interaction. Morality, by contrast, tends to be dogmatic and rigid, often times influences by religious tones.  They are similar, but different.

There are literally hundreds of ethics and virtues there.  I'm going to focus on 8 ethics, as well as 3 combinations, and a universal.  Others may have different views, and I welcome different perspectives.

The 8 are : Compassion, Honesty, Valour, Humility, Sacrifice, Honour, Justice and Spirituality. The eight virtues are derived from the three principles of Truth, Love, and Courage. All that is good, or done with good intent, derives from the three principles.

*Compassion *- Compassion is the ability to be sympathetic to the feelings and sufferings of others. To share their pain, and, to do what you can to ease their misery. For a martial artist to show compassion, it can take many forms. A kind word to a training partner who is growing discouraged is one way. Compassion is sharing the suffering of others. It is being there for them, and listening to them with empathy. When friends are compassionate, it feels as though they are helping us carry our burden. The joy of experiencing their love lessens our suffering. 

*Honesty* - "Thou shalt not steal or lie", but more than this, seek the truth in all things. Strive to be honest in all your actions. Look deep into yourself for, only by knowing yourself can you know truth. One of the phrases that most of us heard often when we were growing up was, "honesty is the best policy." But there is another aspect of honesty that we need to consider -- living the truth! A popular book of several years back asked this question in its title, "Who Are You When Nobody is Looking?" Are you one person in public, but another person entirely when you think that you can "get away with it?" Another part of Honesty is understanding this.

*Valour *- Valour is more than just courage in battle, or in the face of great danger. True valour is the courage to stand by your convictions and, to act in defense of them. Courage also, to look at your failings and, bravely, take action to rectify them. Being valourous is not charging headlessly into the fray.  It may be staying behind so that others may escape. 

*Humility *- True humility is the opposite of pride, without humility the path of the martial artist will be a rocky one. For, if your spirit is filled with pride then how can you learn? We have all heard the comment "Empty your Cup".  But how many of us really do? Too often we let our self be hardened and fall short. Humility is part of being a perpetual student. Humility is the virtue of seeing ourselves as we really are in relation to God (if we are religious) and to others. It is living our life according to this realistic assessment and not thinking more or less of ourselves then we ought. This is difficult because we are prone to swing to either extreme. We tend towards pride when we do well, and we get too down on ourselves when we don't. Humility is an important virtue for a martial artist to have. 

*Sacrifice *- Sacrifice is to love your fellow creatures enough, that you are  bravely able to give of yourself. To give without thought of reward or gain. To sacrifice that which you do need to aid those that are in need. Look deep into your heart and soul that you may find true generosity of spirit. We see sacrifice in our dojos every day.  The dedicated student that gives up their own training time to help another student who is behind is just one form of sacrifice. 

*Honour* - Honor is one of the most misunderstood of virtues.  Too often someone will end up in a fight claiming their honor had been slighted.  Honor has nothing to do with the 'your mamma' insults of children. Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote "Our own heart, and not other men's opinion, forms our true honor." So what then is honor? While examining the concept I came across 9 rules of Honor.  

They are:
_First Law Of Honor_ : You must always be true to your own inner values.

_Second Law Of Honor_ : You must never claim victories that you know in your heart are not truly victories.

_Third Law Of Honor _: Regardless of how the outside world perceives your victories or losses, your behavior must always be true to your own perceptions.

_Fourth Law Of Honor _: To be an instrument for another's pain or death does no one honor--regardless of the circumstances.

_Fifth Law Of Honor_ : There will always be some more capable and some less capable than you, in any given activity. In time, each will occupy all points on the continuum. Therefore, think not in terms of victory and loss, but think in terms of an interaction where both have the opportunity to learn and grow.

_Sixth Law Of Honor _: An attitude of victory or loss, or lack of honor, if held incorrectly, will bar all doors. However, the attitude of interactions for growth's sake, by itself, will not necessarily open all doors.

_Seventh Law Of Honor _: To create high ideals for one's self and to begin to live by these ideals is, indeed, the true path toward growth if, and only if, the creator bends them for no man. But, however great these ideals may be for their creator, force them not upon another.

_Eighth Law Of Honor _: To maintain honor and other ideals it is necessary to attach the highest value to them. The higher the value, the quicker change will be accomplished. Just as money is only paper until Man places a great value on it, wisdom is just words until the seeker places great value on those words.

_Ninth Law Of Honor _: When all is said and done, no individual can escape from the cares of Honor with respect to The Alliance of The Rule. It is upon this level of Honor that we discover that the boarders of honor are respect and love.

Honor can be simply defined as: "When thou givest thy word thou art bound by it. Whatever the perils thy word is thy bond. But, true honour is more than this, thus the Paladin, who values honesty and valour, for from them cometh true honour. A pure heart is an honourable heart.".  It is however so much more.


*Justice* - What is justice? Everyone has a sense of what they think justice is. Many believe it is nothing more than a standard of fairness. The Virtue of Justice has been described thusly: Justice is the truth of what is right and wrong in human action and the love of what is right.". People sometimes think of justice as only having to do with courts of law. Justice is the devotion to truth, tempered by love or mercy. It can take many forms.  Hearing both sides in a dispute with your heart and mind is part of it.

*Spirituality *- Spirituality is the ability to be at peace with yourself and the world. Thus the person who finds joy and calmness in closeness to nature. To seek also, the true nature of your inner self. To find true spirituality is to be blessed indeed, for tis but the first step on a path that will lead to great wisdom and true peace. Spirituality can be a deep religious faith.  It also can be completely separate from religion. Some will see it as 'Ki' or 'Chi'.  It is different for everyone, yet at the time the same. A simplistic definition would be to "be as one with yourself and the world".



*The Three Principles*

    The eight virtues are derived from the three principles of Truth, Love, and Courage. All that is good, or done with good intent, derives from the three principles.


*TRUTH*
    Truth is the truth that is inherent in all things. It is the truth that we discover when we are able to see clearly, free from other distractions.


*LOVE*
    Love is the love that we find in our hearts for all things. Love is what drives us to do acts of kindness. To love is to see beauty and joy all around.


*COURAGE*
    Courage is strength of spirit and determination to act for the greater good. Courage to never give up, and to face overwhelming odds bravely. 

These three principles, either separately, or in combination, form the virtues:

   From Truth comes Honesty
    From Love comes Compassion
    From Courage comes Valour
    Truth and Love combined create Justice
    Love and Courage combined create Sacrifice
    Courage and Truth combined create Honour
    From Truth, Love, and Courage comes Spirituality
    Pride is caused by the absence of the Three Principles, the opposite of Pride is Humility.

*The One Principle*

    Infinity is the One Principle from which the Three principles derive. Truth, Love, and Courage are eternal forces, therefore they derive from Infinity, from which the Three Principles, and Eight Virtues flow.


There are more virtues.  Many are very similar to those above, shades of difference separating them.


*What of Integrity?*
Integrity is the virtue of practicing what one preaches. Or more importantly, practicing what one believes is right. A 'man of principle' is not a man who understands a principle, but a man who understands, accepts, and lives by a principle. Integrity is the virtue of being the person we claim to be. It is "walking the talk," or "practicing what we preach." We cannot say one thing and then do another and still be a person of integrity. If we think we can, we are only fooling ourselves. To be honest means to be real, genuine and authentic. 

This shows respect for ourselves and for others. 

Some believe deceiving others is all right so long as you are not caught. This may work some of the time, but not always. Whether we are caught or not, we should care more about who we are as persons. Sir Thomas More (former Chancellor of England and famous for his integrity) is quoted as saying that we hold ourselves in our hands like sand; if we let go for a moment we are lost, never to regain ourselves. 


Why is it that today, we seem to have such a lack of virtue in the arts?  Too often we hear stories of the 'McDojo".  Schools where the instructors either teach unsafe, untested, watered down or otherwise flawed skills?  Or the ones who felt the need to either buy a high rank, or otherwise self-promote themselves to a high status?  We hear of the physical preditor who feels the need to break his training partners to show why he is the 'man'.  Or instructors who when they take the odd shot from a student while training, feels the need to 'beat' them.  1 person I know has lost a lost of students due to the fact that anytime they beat him, he will not rest until he has regained his 'spot'. This resulted in a number of injuries inflicted on his students by him.  Its a shame because he is a talented young man, but lacking in many of the virtues of a true martial artist.

Given the problem, what can we do if anything to solve it?  Is the answer a wave of laws, fraud busting and such?  Or should we strive to be the best we can be in our acts, words and deeds?  Can we individually bring up the karma of the arts simply by living as close to these ethics as we can?

For me, the answer is obvious.  I'm not perfect, and I know I never can be. Many times I have missed my mark in my actions or words. All I can do is strive each day to be better, and perhaps one day, truely find the enlightenment that I know is inside the arts.

Peace.


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## A.R.K.

Bob,

Good post, I'll offer this thought.  Perhaps the more you know how to hurt another human being...the less you what to do so and look for other avenues and outlets.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida

This reminds me of a story I once heard, there are three martial artists walking down the street a white belt, a black belt and thier master. along comes a gang of thugs who challenge them, the white belt says master I will defend the honor of the dojo runs up and is able beat two of the thugs before being beaten himself. The black belt says master I will defend the honor of the dojo runs up and is able to defeat seven of the thugs before being beaten. The master then looks at the remainder of the thugs and says "there must be better street to travel" turns and walks away.
 :asian: 

Kaith,

Your above statements were well written and in my opinion there are three parts of the martial arts.

1. Physical training
2. mental strength
3. spiritual strength

The third is the hardest to achieve for most, some think that they have to follow asian religions and cultures to achieve this strength

Spiritual strength, peace, and happiness can be acomplished in many ways, it sounds to me that you are in search of this peace, everyone finds sriritual peace in different ways, I personally find it through the lord. I'm not trying to preach or tell you to go to church, but what I am telling you is to continue to search and you will find what your looking for.


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## MountainSage

How do I get a hard copy, Kaith.

Mountaiin Sage


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## Bob Hubbard

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/printthread.php?&threadid=9121

Also, the "Show Printable" link at the bottom.

:asian:


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## Astra

Good post, but it should be pointed that nothing is black and white. Ethics may conflict in certain circumstances, where one must decide which is the greater.

Short example:
You love someone, but he/she asks you a question. If you tell the truth, you will hurt them deeply. Do you love them enough not to hurt them, or do you love them enough to be truthful?

I'll leave the answer to you


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## c2kenpo

Great post:asian: 

I think that as time does go on some MA people do find that after working the physical arts for such a long time alos work on the inner mental arts as well. I know since I have begun my training now I am at a point where I am starting to look into the healing arts and wanting to learn them.

Morals are something that we believe in with every fiber of our being and will honestly defend till the end. An example can be for myself - I believe so strongly that the sexual violation of anyone child or woman/ man is so WRONG that I become ill to the thought of it and have ZERO TOLERANCE. Meaning there is no excuse that anyone could give me that I would be willing to accept.


Ethics are something that can vary with greater degrees. Combine honsesty and commitment together and you have ethics.
An example here is simple..look at elections..Purposly digging up dirt aboutyour competitor and publicly sharing that information may or may not be ethical in your mind. You may feel it is okay and that the public should know and then again YOU may want to rais the bar and ACT on what you say and not lower yourself to petty slander and "namecalling".

In the thousands of years the MA have been around, many have learned it for differetn reasons and for a differetn purpose. I hope one day that what I have learned I can give back. But not only the arts of self-defense and my contribution to them. I hope that I can give back something that every person that I touch can carry with them and pass on to their children. 
I would like to think that that is a similar thought to what the masters of old did for themselvs.

JMHO and babble.
Getting off

:soapbox: 

David Gunzburg


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## Bob Hubbard

Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:


A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:

Trounce the rogue 
or
Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it 

Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:

Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed. 
or
Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed. 

Think about it for a second....

:asian:


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## Cryozombie

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *
> 
> Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:
> 
> Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed.
> or
> Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed.
> [/color]
> Think about it for a second....
> 
> :asian: *



Neither... I raise my hands to my chest and shout "back off HUMAN FILTH!"  

LOL!  Sorry.  After reading Sharp Phil's    article about homeless people, that was too easy...


:rofl:


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## Cryozombie

http://northampton1.com/Dojo/articles/article9.htm

Is a good (IMHO) article by Ed Martian (bujinkan 13th dan, for those who dont know the name) on the  subject  of what Honor and Integrity are...


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## Elfan

One of the better discusions on honor I've seen came from "Living the Martial Way" (http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4429).


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## Kirk

Here's one of the worst displays I've seen.

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=9138


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## Captain Harlock

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:
> 
> 
> A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:
> 
> Trounce the rogue
> or
> Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it
> 
> Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:
> 
> Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed.
> or
> Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed.
> 
> Think about it for a second....
> 
> :asian: *



Your questions have neither a right nor wrong answer, only the answer that is right for you.

Do you choose valor or humility? Do you have compassion on the less fortunate but tarnish your honesty, or do you remain honest, but cold?

Let me add an additional one to your ponderings:
A merchant owes your friend money, now long past due. You see the same merchant drop his wallet. Do You:

 Give your friend a portion of the cash first 
-OR-
 Return the wallet intact 

Which Way will you choose?


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## A.R.K.

There is no choice to be made...the wallet is returned intact.

:asian:


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## DAC..florida

> _Originally posted by A.R.K. _
> *There is no choice to be made...the wallet is returned intact.
> 
> :asian: *





The money issue is between your friend and the merchant, not your place to put your hands in the merchants wallet.
:asian:


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> *Some interesting questions I found somewhere else:
> 
> 
> A local bully pushes for a fight. Dost thou:
> 
> Trounce the rogue
> or
> Decline, knowing that no lasting good will come of it
> 
> Entrusted to deliver an uncounted purse of gold, thou dost meet a poor beggar. Dost thou:
> 
> Give the beggar a coin, knowing it won't be missed.
> or
> Deliver the gold knowing the trust in thee was well-placed.
> 
> Think about it for a second....
> 
> :asian: *




1. Hide a video tape. Let the bully beat you up. Tape the encounter.  Sue his ***.

If you beat him up, you get sued.

2. Buy the beggar a Mc Dick.  Direct him to the local shelter where he can get help.

Just giving the beggar a coin is like pissing into the ocean.


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## Ender

Good post and very thought provoking. But in reality, you've blurred the lines and overlapped morals, ethics and philosophy. There are business ethics, cultural ethics, moral ethics and so on. Likewise there is moral philosophy, amoral philosophy, ethical philosphy. all of these are fields of study.

you may think i am arguing semantics, and in a way i am. but the fact of the matter is all three go hand in hand and can be interchangeable.


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## KennethKu

> _Originally posted by Ender _
> Good post and very thought provoking. But in reality, you've blurred the lines and overlapped morals, ethics and philosophy.



That is EXACTLY the way reality is, BLURRED. That is the way things are, in real life.


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## Turner

1. A bully pushes for a fight, do you:
A. Trounce Him
B. Walk away realizing that no good will come of it.

2. Tasked to deliver an uncounted amount of money, you arrive upon a begger. Do you:
A. Provide charity knowing that it will not be missed.
B. Deliever the money intact.

I find that the second question is the easiest to answer. You are given an amount of money to deliver to a person. Whether it is counted or not that money is placed in your trust. I've often heard of people fighting for their honor and find the concept utterly stupid. Honor is not something that you can fight for. You are either honorable or dishonorable. It's all in your actions, not in people's perception of you. If you give away money that is not yours you have proven yourself not to be worthy of the trust that is placed in you, your action would be dishonorable.

The first question is a little harder for me to answer. At first it seems like the likely answer would be B. If given the opportunity to walk away from a fight you should do it. What if you walk away from the fight leaving the bully unsatisfied and his anger increases and he forces someone into a fight and winds up killing him? It is the responsibility of the strong/honorable to protect those that are weaker. In walking away from the fight you failed in your responsibility. Or did you? You are not responsible for the bullies actions. Each man is responsible for his own. You didn't make the bully become the bully and if he loses control and kills someone else you can't be held responsible if you aren't there.

Think about the movie spiderman. Parker won the wrestling match and was stiffed for the money he was supposed to win. He went to the elevator and the guy that stiffed him was robbed. He didn't act to stop the robber from fleeing because he was able to 'walk away.' Because the robber wasn't stopped he went on to kill Parker's uncle for the car. Parker isn't immediately responsible but yet he still was indirectly responsbile because he had the ability to interfere.

So, in order to answer the first question I would need more information. Is the animosity directed soley at me so that if I walk away the problem no longer exists within the bully? Is it possible to fight the guy and then fake like you lost so that his desire to fight is gone but yet he doesn't lose face. (Who cares whether or not you lose face, that isn't an issue of honor it is an issue of ego.) Is it possible that if you fight the guy and win he will have gotten all of the animosity out and perhaps learn some humility without being totally humiliated? Is he the type of guy that if you walk away he'll feel that you've backed down and now feels superior enough that he no longer needs to fight to 'prove it.'


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## A.R.K.

In most states, and perhaps all, a citizen is required to retreat if in doing so he does not put himself in greater danger.  The law does not recognize items such as 'pride', 'hurt feelings' or 'losing face'.  If you can retreat safety, you must do so.  This does not count inside the home however.

So in your first question,you walk away...if he lets you.  If he is yelling at you and calling you names etc but not physically preventing your leaving...you leave.  If he physically tries to prevent you from leaving, attacks you or there is an extenuating circumstance preventing your exiting the situation...then you use whatever means are lawful to protect yourself.

Second question, you deliver the money intact.  If you are concerned about the beggar, you give him your own money out of your own pocket.

:asian:


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## arnisador

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## tshadowchaser

Seeing as how ethics have been brought up in a few threads lately I thought I would bring this thread up again


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## Bob Hubbard

Some recent events have led me to much thought as of late, and my mind wandered to this post I made 3 years ago. It seems, important right now.


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## Kacey

Ethics and morality are too often ignored in today's society; for too many people, expediency is the rule.  For others, the rule becomes the ends justifies the means.

Unacceptable behavior appears to be accelerating; not that unacceptable behavior is, necessarily, occurring more often - rather, the line between unacceptable and acceptable behavior appears to be moving farther and farther into the realm of what was unacceptable in the past.  How far will the line move before the pendulum swings back again?


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## matt.m

You know this is a really great topic.  My father is a master 5th dan in hapkido.  He reads a lot of literature and philosophy.  He is one of the most well read people I have ever known, he also is always on the quest to seek greater knowledge... It doesn't matter what topic he just wants to read and research.

One of his great friends and the grandmaster I train under is an astronomy teacher for a high school.  He also goes to many plays at the Fox Theatre.  The point is that the higher the dan rank the more knowledge one seeks in Liberal Art education.

These are just two examples there are many more I could point out.  I believe there is a direct correlation to Martial rank and knowledge in general.


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## shesulsa

I think Virtue and Ethics must go hand-in-hand with other elements belonging under the heading of scruples.

It is far to easy to cut one's nose off to spite their face when we don't think clearly of all dangers, all options, appropriate, incisive action versus flailing warmongering.  At times, the ethical, virtuous action appears to be simple and sometimes some people will not fail to impale themselves upon steel thinking all they do is right and all else is wrong and failing.  Sad, when careful consideration, Scruples, and the right job done by the right person can be just the right stuff.

What is ethics, then?  Is it a black-and-white shopping list of right and wrong?  Is the arrival of values and application of honor on all levels when choosing action?  Are ethics defined by an individual, a family credo, Dharma, Judeo-Christian doctrine?  Is it an agreed-upon code of conduct?

Thoughts? Comments?


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## exile

shesulsa said:


> What is ethics, then?  Is it a black-and-white shopping list of right and wrong?  Is the arrival of values and application of honor on all levels when choosing action?  Are ethics defined by an individual, a family credo, Dharma, Judeo-Christian doctrine?  Is it an agreed-upon code of conduct?
> 
> Thoughts? Comments?



Whew!

My first thought is, 2 in the morning is a bit too late to dive into that question.  But my sense is that it's a mistake to try to tackle the question head-on. I suspect the problem is more approachable if we start by asking how people's ethical sense manifests itself. I think of ethics as what someone, don't remember who, called `that small, still voice that lies within'. It's the thing that drives your conscience, some code you've worked out of how one should behave, not because one is told to by a particular moral code or set of religious precepts or other doctrine, but because of something inherent in our relations to others, and I think empathy---the ability to imagine and sympathize with the feelings and inner life of other people---is a crucial component of that inner voice. I'm not saying that philosophical or religious doctrine can't feed that inner sense, but it's very interesting how often one reads about people who contravened the teachings of their religious or social upbringing to do something---typically, on behalf of some other person---because there was something inherently right and therefore _necessary_ about the action. Whatever the source of our ethical sense, it's what drives that kind of action---often against the material `real world' interests of the person who carries out the action.


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## shesulsa

Hmm.  Good post, exile ... well said, curious and titillating.

May I point, temporarily, to a few things you wrote I'd like for us to expand on?


> I think of ethics as what someone, don't remember who, called `that small, still voice that lies within'. It's the thing that drives your conscience, some code you've worked out of how one should behave, not because one is told to by a particular moral code or set of religious precepts or other doctrine, but because of something inherent in our relations to others, and I think empathy---the ability to imagine and sympathize with the feelings and inner life of other people---is a crucial component of that inner voice.


Interesting you reference the conscience here, because your description is how I would have described conscience itself.  I'm thinking as I'm typing now, however, that conscience is one of the elements which shape ethics and ethics drive action.

I think of ethics as more of a smaller, more defined set of principles - the "bottom line," "buck stops here" definition of the most important things one can decide ... like using only necessary force (don't kill unless you absolutely have no other choice besides dying yourself), vows of loyalty (such as those in marriage), taking careful action without harming others (such as the Hippocratic Oath taken by physicians), etcetera.

And...


> ... it's very interesting how often one reads about people who contravened the teachings of their religious or social upbringing to do something---typically, on behalf of some other person---because there was something inherently right and therefore _necessary_ about the action.


Indeeed it is interesting.  This begs my question as to a sense of legacy which may be inherent (I think) in the foundation of ethics building and defining, hence leaving much to be _personally_ definitive rather than _socially_ definitive and *therein* we should explore the issue of personal ethics as opposed to generally accepted societal ethics and where the latter come from.

And what of virtue?  Virtue has been defined as physical purity a.k.a. virginity, but there are elements/qualities of personal being that are called 'virtues' such as are defined by religious people.  Is virtue purity? and how do we define that? An absence of sexual contact? An absence of evil?  If this, how can anyone be virtuous as the only entity (allegedly) without evil is God?  Is 'virtue' then the stipulation that one acts solely on ethics with pure intent?  And then we must, of course, define 'Pure.'

Meh!  

Let's grab the java and chat!!!


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## Kreth

exile said:


> I think of ethics as what someone, don't remember who, called `that small, still voice that lies within'.


Wasn't it Metal Church?


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## exile

shesulsa said:


> Hmm.  Good post, exile ... well said, curious and titillating.
> 
> May I point, temporarily, to a few things you wrote I'd like for us to expand on?
> 
> Interesting you reference the conscience here, because your description is how I would have described conscience itself.  I'm thinking as I'm typing now, however, that conscience is one of the elements which shape ethics and ethics drive action.
> 
> I think of ethics as more of a smaller, more defined set of principles - the "bottom line," "buck stops here" definition of the most important things one can decide ... like using only necessary force (don't kill unless you absolutely have no other choice besides dying yourself), vows of loyalty (such as those in marriage), taking careful action without harming others (such as the Hippocratic Oath taken by physicians), etcetera.



Shesulsa---

I agree, those things you're pointing out are part a (possible) set of ethical principles. I do think that ethics is kind of the formal expression of what it is that shapes our consciences---an ethical principle (of the sort you give) is a kind of universal statement which we think of underpinning the particular responses we have that call our conscience. But my sense---this is all kind of thinking aloud, right?---is that our internal conscience-response, what that small voice is telling us, comes first, and subsequently we ramp it up into a general principle, to explain why we have the response we do. But the internal response is primary. So then, where does _that_ come from? I can make a guess... 

This may be too much a reflection of my own experience. But I have a sense that our consciences reflect our own sense of vulnerability in the world---specifically, I'm guessing that every person has a sense of what there is in the world that they most want not to happen (kind of the inverse of the Mirror of Erised in the first Harry Potter novel), and what we want is for the world to be governed by principles in such a way that those things are less likely to happen to us. Some of that sense of vulnerability is brought on by things that actually happen to as children, I suspect, but other parts of it are the result of our empathetic imagination---we see something bad that happens to someone else, feel bad because we can visualize it happening to us, and so add to our list of desirata additional principles that, if they held universally, would block that thing from happening. I think our adult consciences are the result of our monitoring ourselves in terms of these ultimately self-protective desires---we start off being bullied or taken advantage of because we're small and weak, or because we see it happening to someone else and realize that it could just as well have been us, and we want the world to a place such that that sort of thing doesn't happen to _anyone_. I have always suspected that that bumper sticker saying---`Practice random acts of kindness'---is a reflection of our desire for the world to be a place where such acts actually do occur, and that if we practice them, then it becomes more like such a place.

I'm not being cynical, I hope, in thinking that self-protectiveness is where our ethical sense has its roots. I don't thing there's anything _wrong_ with self-protection as a motive---certainly we as MAists subscribe to the idea that the more we can protect ourselves, the better, eh?

And...



shesulsa said:


> Indeeed it is interesting.  This begs my question as to a sense of legacy which may be inherent (I think) in the foundation of ethics building and defining, hence leaving much to be _personally_ definitive rather than _socially_ definitive and *therein* we should explore the issue of personal ethics as opposed to generally accepted societal ethics and where the latter come from.



Does anything that I've been speculating about in the above speak to this point you're raising? I think that what I'm saying suggests that ethics does arise in the individual, because protection of the self (and others we identify with via our imaginative abilities) is of course based in the individual, but it implicates the social dimension because in order for the world to be the kind of place that makes us safe, there has to be agreement among individuals to behave in certain ways. I also think that society has certain values that may benefit itself at the expense of individual well-being (perfect example: the human sacrifice practices revealed in the horrifying ending to Shirley Jackson's grim masterpiece `The Lottery'), but that's a whole 'nother story...



shesulsa said:


> And what of virtue?  Virtue has been defined as physical purity a.k.a. virginity, but there are elements/qualities of personal being that are called 'virtues' such as are defined by religious people.  Is virtue purity? and how do we define that? An absence of sexual contact? An absence of evil?  If this, how can anyone be virtuous as the only entity (allegedly) without evil is God?  Is 'virtue' then the stipulation that one acts solely on ethics with pure intent?  And then we must, of course, define 'Pure.'
> 
> Meh!
> 
> Let's grab the java and chat!!!



Ah, virtue... now that you bring it up, I really don't know what to make of the notion of virtue. I think of it as something that actually is on a slightly different plane from ethics---so people say, `Patience is a virtue', `Thrift is a virtue' etc., but it's possible to agree with those statements without thinking of either patience or thrift as having an ethical dimension... The way I think of `a virtue', it connotes something like `wise practice'. I'm not sure what this has to do with the sense of `virtue' in general---yes, it connotes sexual purity (however that's defined) in some contexts (Victorian literary descriptions of a woman as `virtuous', e.g.) but it also shows up in contexts with no sexual overtones, like when someone is described as having carried out a `virtuous deed'... ???


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## Kacey

shesulsa said:


> I think Virtue and Ethics must go hand-in-hand with other elements belonging under the heading of scruples.



Hmm... interesting... I should never try to answer questions like this while eating; I get lunch all over the keyboard... and I only have 30 minutes for lunch.

Well, being the child of an English professor who is also a librarian, I'm going to start with some definitions, because I think all of these concepts are inter-related; after giving the definitions from Merriam-Webster, I'll go back and give my opinon.  I only took the definition that seems to be relevant to the discussion; did you know that 'scruple' originally referred to a weight?

Main Entry:	*2scruple*
Function:	_noun_
Etymology:	Middle English _scripil, scrupill,_ from Anglo-French _scruble,_ from Latin _scrupulus,_ diminutive of _scrupus_ source of uneasiness, literally, sharp stone
*1* *:* an ethical consideration or principle that inhibits action
*2* *:* the quality or state of being scrupulous
*3* *:* mental reservation
*synonym* see [SIZE=-1]QUALM[/SIZE]

Main Entry:	*eth·ic*


Pronunciation:	'e-thik
Function:	_noun_
Etymology:	Middle English _ethik,_ from Middle French _ethique,_ from Latin _ethice,_ from Greek _EthikE,_ from _Ethikos_
*1* _plural but singular or plural in construction_ *:* the discipline dealing with what is good and bad and with moral duty and obligation
*2 a* *:* a set of moral principles  *:* a theory or system of moral values   <the present-day materialistic _ethic_>   <an old-fashioned work _ethic_> -- often used in plural but sing. or plural in constr.   <an elaborate _ethic__s_>   <Christian _ethic__s_> *b* _plural but singular or plural in construction_ *:* the principles of conduct governing an individual or a group   <professional _ethic__s_> *c* *:* a guiding philosophy *d* *:* a consciousness of moral importance   <forge a conservation _ethic_>
*3* _plural_ *:* a set of moral issues or aspects (as rightness)   <debated the _ethic__s_ of human cloning>

Main Entry:	*2mor·al*


Pronunciation:	'mor-&l, 'mär-; _3 is_ m&-'ral
Function:	_noun_
*1 a* *:* the moral significance or practical lesson (as of a story) *b* *:* a passage pointing out usually in conclusion the lesson to be drawn from a story
*2* _plural_ *a* *:* moral practices or teachings  *:* modes of conduct *b* *: [SIZE=-1]ETHICS[/SIZE]*
*3* *: [SIZE=-1]MORALE[/SIZE]

*Now, for myself, I see 'ethics' as the over-arching category here; one has moral values about certain issues; one has scruples about certain issues; one's personal ethic (or value system) - which is based on one's scruples and morals - gives guidance in situations not yet touched by the ones which shape ones morals and scruples.  So I guess I'm saying that I consider scruples and morals to be based on responses to specific situations, while I consider ethics, in principle, to be the guiding force behind the decisions and actions that form scruples and morals, but certainly, they are related.
So - to get to the specific questions:



shesulsa said:


> What is ethics, then? Is it a black-and-white shopping list of right and wrong? Is the arrival of values and application of honor on all levels when choosing action?



I think that ethics is the system within which people make decisions that have moral implications.  This system changes with time and experience; as a person experiences more of life, then s/he has more data on which to make decisions, and a greater body of experience to compare new experiences to.  Also, to a certain extent, ethics is developmental; I lean toward Kohlberg's stages of Moral Development, as follows (just the stages; follow the link for more information):

*Level 1. Preconventional Morality (ages birth - 12, more or less)
**Stage 1. Obedience and Punishment         Orientation. 
*Roughly, do it and I'll reward you; don't do it and I'll punish you*Stage 2.* *Individualism and         Exchange.
*Doing what's best for me.
*Level II. Conventional Morality (teens, young adults)
*
*Stage 3. Good Interpersonal         Relationships. 
*Doing what will make others happy with me (applies mostly to small groups)
*Stage 4. Maintaining the Social         Order.
*Doing what is best for society, as defined by society - that is, being law-abiding.  Many adults never develop past this point.
*Level III. Postconventional Morality (adults)
*
*Stage 5. Social Contract and         Individual Rights.
*Doing what is best for society, even if that means changing society's rules for its own betterment - activism often falls here.
*Stage 6: Universal Principles.
*Ghandi.  Following the principles on which society is founded, rather than the laws which express those principles; doing right because it is the right thing to do.  Very few people reach this level.

Now, having tossed all of this information from other people in, I think that ethics are formed in Stage 5, although this development is not smooth, and people often show one stage in one situation, and another in a different situation.  


shesulsa said:


> Are ethics defined by an individual, a family credo, Dharma, Judeo-Christian doctrine? Is it an agreed-upon code of conduct?



I think that there is a strong cultural context to this question.  In some cultures, ethics are a cultural value - but thinking about my original definition of ethics as the overarching system, with scruples and values being facets of that system, I think that most doctrine teaches morals and scruples - not ethics.  Ethics, I think, is a personal belief system that goes above and beyond the codes of behavior taught by most religions, cultures, and other belief systems.

Now for a question of my own:  What is integrity, and how does it fit into discussions and applications of ethics, morals, and scruples?


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