# Chinese martial arts in China question



## Blaze Dragon (Feb 6, 2013)

I wanted to start a new thread about this, though it was sparked by another thread. I hear a lot of mention of teachers in China. I hear about how they are superior in method, tradition and technique. Now I'm not arguing this, however I am confused. Heres my confusion...

now all this is based upon documentaries and internet research, so it's questionable. Thus I ask members of MT 

I was under the impression that Chinese martial arts was outlawed in China. Thus the Boxer rebellion in 1902. I was under the impression that even today that "real" martial arts in China is still out lawed.

So other things I was under the impression of and was curious as to how accurate this is, have you heard the same, or can you confirm it as accurate or direct me to what the real truth is please.

1) Chinese martial arts was outlawed so the boxers (CMA practitioners) went into hiding and it's hard to find real deal in China. Or some fled the country so you might find real deal in other countries but not China.
2) Some of the CMA practitioners and masters formed the Triads, essentially what many call the Chinese mob
3) Wushu was invented which is more showy then martial and was allowed as an art and sport in place of the combat arts (this of course could be complete bull still something I had read)
4) The Shaolin monks started drinking, gambling and sleeping with whores in a type of rebellion. So the communist burned the temple and whipped the last of the monks through the streets. This lead to no more Shaolin fighting monks ect the ones that escaped and try to keep it alive under ground. Because of this like wise many now slap shaolin on there school to draw students even if all they did was spend a few weeks at the temple or in some cases not at all. The monks in Shaolin today are performing monks and not the same systems as used by the fighting monks of old.

So is any of this accurate? Is martial arts, weapons, and combat arts no longer out lawed in China? It's very, very hard to find facts. There are plenty of articles, books and documentaries, but how do you sort out the bull from the truth?

Just curious because you see practitioners in China and people making referencing to them as being the best. 

thanks


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## Jin Gang (Feb 6, 2013)

"Real" martial arts is not outlawed in China.  It is true that the triads have a close connection with certain martial arts styles, particularly in south China where there was more popular resistance to the Qing government.  It is true that the communist government in the 1960's supported and had martial arts experts create the modern form of wushu which emphasized acrobatics and showmanship and deemphasized the combative purpose of forms, and these forms and form of competition still go on all over the world.  I don't think the communists destroying the temple is true, I think the last time it burned was in 1928, during the northern expedition when warlords were competing for power in the vaccuum left by the fall of the Qing.  Since then there had not been much going on at Shaolin, until the 1980's when the government recognized the potential for tourism.  It is true that shaolin is a famous name in martial arts, it has been for a long time, and some styles which claim to be descended from shaolin martial arts may not have actually been.  
  I have seen and heard from lots of people, on forums, etc, who currently are or have in the past studied traditional martial arts in China.  It is true that there was a short time when the Chinese government discouraged the teaching of combative arts (during the cultural revolution from 1969-76).  But the reality of enforcing such a thing is a different matter.  It is true that many people emigrated to Taiwan, Hong Kong, southeast Asia, or elsewhere in the world, and brought their martial arts with them.  But the vast size and population of China means just as many or more martial artists stayed.  Maybe they didn't teach openly for a while.  Maybe their village was small enough, or had few enough students, that they never would have been noticed anyway.  Really, such a law is nothing more than another excuse for the government to go after and arrest anyone who they feel is causing trouble.  And the "ban" did not last all that long.  Since the 1980's, at least, there has been a drive in China to bring traditional martial arts back into prominence.  The shaolin temple was renovated, money put into it, martial arts experts from the nearby villages brought in to start re-teaching the traditional arts of that region descended from shaolin.  According to people who have been there and studied it extensively, these styles are pretty close to what had been taught in and around shaolin for hundreds of years.  Of course, no one knows exactly what the martial arts of centuries ago really looked like, or if something has been lost which was once practiced, but that goes for all styles.  We don't even know entirely what karate was like, only 200 years ago.  There is still plenty of performance wushu around and no one can deny the modern shaolin is a big tourist attraction and caters to movies and showmanship, but there are definately traditional martial arts as well, and not just around shaolin.  I don't have first hand experience, but all you need to do is see a few videos of some traditional arts being taught in China to know that they are not lying about it.  I don't know that teachers in China are necessarily better than those that emigrated elsewhere in the world.  There are good and bad teachers everywhere you go.  And a person doesn't need to be Chinese to be a good teacher of Chinese martial arts, that has nothing to do with it.  But yes, there are good teachers of traditional martial arts to be found in China today, with lineages unbroken and knowledge intact.  Not only is it not outlawed, but it is encouraged, as one of the things which attracts people to their country and their culture and brings money in.


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## clfsean (Feb 7, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> I wanted to start a new thread about this, though it was sparked by another thread. I hear a lot of mention of teachers in China. I hear about how they are superior in method, tradition and technique. Now I'm not arguing this, however I am confused. Heres my confusion...
> 
> now all this is based upon documentaries and internet research, so it's questionable. Thus I ask members of MT
> I was under the impression that Chinese martial arts was outlawed in China. Thus the Boxer rebellion in 1902. I was under the impression that even today that "real" martial arts in China is still out lawed.


Wow... big topic. But I'll go by points & hits to try to keep it on target from what I have & keep it on target. BUT... the over riding messsage is ... NO. Martial arts are not outlawed in China... currently.
The Boxer Rebellion wasn't about martial arts. It's just martial artists, who tended to be extremely patriotic especially in the South, were involved. There were some stupid things claimed/done/proven incorrct (bullets defelected by Taoist charms, can't penetrate Golden Vest training, etc... ) and some not good things done (massacres of non-Asian missionaries, etc...). 


BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So other things I was under the impression of and was curious as to how accurate this is, have you heard the same, or can you confirm it as accurate or direct me to what the real truth is please.
> 
> 1) Chinese martial arts was outlawed so the boxers (CMA practitioners) went into hiding and it's hard to find real deal in China. Or some fled the country so you might find real deal in other countries but not China.
> 2) Some of the CMA practitioners and masters formed the Triads, essentially what many call the Chinese mob
> ...


 
OK by point... 
1) Yes but not due to the Boxer Rebellion. That was more along the lines of Maoists finally won after WWII & started laying down hard policies. If you didn't comply, you suffered. This is very nutshelled. But you will find "real deal" in China, but it's a big place compared other countries tend to have concentrated areas of Chinese populations. But even then, that doesn't mean you'll get the goods if it's one street over from you. That all depends. 
2) They formed lots of organizations, but the best known was the Hung Men. It started off as a way to overthrow the Qing. As with many different groups, what started off as a good idea took a bit of a side trek. They did lots of good, but there's also bad involved as well. But when you start off as a "criminal gang", no matter what your intentions are, labeled by the legal gov't, you're already behind the 8 ball. 

3) There are lots of reasons behind the formation of modern PRC wusuhu, but one of the reasons was to take away the combative nature of traditional wushu. I mean... honestly... if you in recent history had taken over a country by force of will & arms, would you want a possible counter-revolt staged by people who could fight as well as or better than your troops once they got into that range? That's why Mao confiscated all weaponry once he had control. One spin behind modern wushu was "comrades don't fight comrades". 
4) Could be but I doubt it. Remember there are divisions within the Shaolin hierarchy. There were the religious order monks, the martial warrior monks, and the laymen disciples. The martial warrior monks had dispensation going back to the Tang dynasty for dietary & conduct given their role. Laymen disciples were literally people like you & me who went there to learn how to fight & aid the rebellions. 
But the temple burned in 1928 during the Civil War. The Maoists had nothing to do with it. It was already scrapped. They took away the last few monks living there (like Hai Deng) & sent them away. But burning it... nah. 
The order today... who knows. Most of the "monks" we see travelling aren't ordained. They are kids that go to a Shaolin based MA school & that's what they do. 


BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So is any of this accurate? Is martial arts, weapons, and combat arts no longer out lawed in China? It's very, very hard to find facts. There are plenty of articles, books and documentaries, but how do you sort out the bull from the truth?
> 
> Just curious because you see practitioners in China and people making referencing to them as being the best.
> thanks


 
It's all true to a degree. It's all BS to a degree. The trick is you have to get out & experience it first hand. You have to feel it to know. You have to make some sacrifices to get it. 
That help any??


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

This has already been answered pretty well but we are talking China and I just can&#8217;t resist throwing in my two cents



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> I was under the impression that Chinese martial arts was outlawed in China. Thus the Boxer rebellion in 1902. I was under the impression that even today that "real" martial arts in China is still out lawed.



The Boxer rebellion was more about multiple western countries cutting China to pieces for their own benefit and an empress (Empress Dowager Cixi) that did not understand warfare of the time nor did she want to. The boxers were just the guys that did the fighting and the dying. They were not fighting because Martial Arts was outlawed it was anti-foreigner and pro nationalism. Also the Chinese military was part of this and was fairly successful very early on in the fight however that did not last. It was not one fight, it went on form 1899 to 1901



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> 1) Chinese martial arts was outlawed so the boxers (CMA practitioners) went into hiding and it's hard to find real deal in China. Or some fled the country so you might find real deal in other countries but not China.



It was not outlawed until 1966 to 1976 and the Cultural Revolution. And I would not call it outlawed so much as if we see you doing it we&#8217;ll kill you. Many CMA teacher left the country and others went underground. This is kind of where the saying in China &#8220;the nail that stands up gets pounded down&#8221; comes from. But even during the Cultural Revolution they were still training, just in secret and out of the public view. And the real deal is still alive and well and on mainland China but their memory is rather long so many are still not being overly public about their training, but they never really were to begin with.



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> 2) Some of the CMA practitioners and masters formed the Triads, essentially what many call the Chinese mob



This is true, some of these were from Shaolin but not all Chinese martial artists got envolved in the Triads



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> 3) Wushu was invented which is more showy then martial and was allowed as an art and sport in place of the combat arts (this of course could be complete bull still something I had read)



Wushu is Chinese martial arts. (Period) the use of wushu as a derogatory word for Chinese martial arts shows a rather large lack of knowledge about CMA history and the Chinese language. Kung Fu was adopted by westerners but it is the wrong word. Chinese have adjusted their language a bit for us and now know that when we say Kung Fu we are really saying Wushu. Kung Fu means hard work and you need Kung Fu to be good at Wushu.

Modern Wushu was developed as a competition thing however at the same time Sanda/Sanshou was developed for fighting and there are two major categories of Sanda. There is Sport that you see people like Cung Le do and there is the stuff you see the police and Military use and they are not the same but both, if the guy is trained well, can hurt you real bad if you go challenge Sanda guy.



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> 4) The Shaolin monks started drinking, gambling and sleeping with whores in a type of rebellion. So the communist burned the temple and whipped the last of the monks through the streets. This lead to no more Shaolin fighting monks ect the ones that escaped and try to keep it alive under ground. Because of this like wise many now slap shaolin on there school to draw students even if all they did was spend a few weeks at the temple or in some cases not at all. The monks in Shaolin today are performing monks and not the same systems as used by the fighting monks of old.



Mostly false. The Communists were destroying all vestiges of Old Chinese culture and even changed the writing at that time because physiologically speaking you want to subjugate a people it becomes rather easy to do if you can separate them from their past. 

However Shaolin is not what it used to be, it does teach a more performance based Wushu but it also does teach Sanda. There are Chinese people who go there to train with hopes of using that to later get themselves into the army and there are a few that stay and become monks. 

There are a lot of people outside of China who go spend a few weeks or a few months at Shaolin, go back to their homeland and call their school Shaolin to make money and there are a few that have permission to do so outside of China from Shaolin. However I am not so sure I would do that in China without permission, it could get you a visit form the toughest Shaolin guy at the monetary who will beat the heck out of you if you do not change it. And/or it could get that same guy or several showing up demanding you stop and put an ad in the paper telling everyone you are fake or, again, they will beat the heck out of you. Or, Like here it could go to the legal system where you will be told to stop be forced to pay Shaolin scads of money and likely again get the heck beaten out of you.



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> So is any of this accurate?



No



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Is martial arts, weapons, and combat arts no longer out lawed in China?



It is not outlawed in China and never really was&#8230;technically. But if you go though multiple Chinese Dynasties you will find times when Martial arts and or the carrying of weapons was &#8220;outlawed&#8221;.

But here is the thing you really need to take into account with most Chinese governments and most Chinese people. The country is Huge and there are millions of people and the government has historically not been proactive in enforcing anything short of crushing what they perceive as an uprising. So if they don&#8217;t see it, they don&#8217;t care. Chinese people have always been very good at telling when they can and cannot do something so if they are told &#8220;Don&#8217;t do Wushu&#8221; they don&#8217;t&#8230;as long as there is someone watching them. But as soon as he leaves&#8230;its wushu time.

Another thing to think about. You go up to my Taiji sifu and tell hiim his Taiji is fake he will likely tell you yes, yes it is. You tell my Sanda sifu his martial arts is fake and you may or may not be told you&#8217;re right...or you may or may not be about to receive a rather painful example of how fake his Martial arts is. If you are Chinese you will get the latter, if not you may get the first choice. Now here is another thing, the only Chinese marital artist in my area that my Sanda sifu truly respects is my Taiji sifu however my first sifu, who is also Chinese, he regularly calls a Flower Fist.

Real Chinese Martial arts is still in China, but it is harder to find than the things for health or competition


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Wow... big topic. But I'll go by points & hits to try to keep it on target from what I have & keep it on target. BUT... the over riding messsage is ... NO. Martial arts are not outlawed in China... currently.
> The Boxer Rebellion wasn't about martial arts. It's just martial artists, who tended to be extremely patriotic especially in the South, were involved. There were some stupid things claimed/done/proven incorrct (bullets defelected by Taoist charms, can't penetrate Golden Vest training, etc... ) and some not good things done (massacres of non-Asian missionaries, etc...).
> 
> 
> ...



A great deal thank you


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> This has already been answered pretty well but we are talking China and I just can&#8217;t resist throwing in my two cents
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Correct me if I'm wrong on anything I'm about to type. As mentioned before my sources are second hand and I'm repeating what was heard or read.

Fair enough and I thank you  my comment on the wushu. As I understand it, I have also read about Kung Fu. the story of an American touring the temple or some such place and asked what they are doing and the reply was "kung fu" as in they are working out. That is one story I remember about the origin of the name Kung-Fu. I've also found it to mean "Great skill" as you can have Kung-Fu in anything you do. One of my old instructors told me it's more appropriate to call CMA (which is a new acronym I found on this forum never heard it before.) Koshu (not sure on spelling) which roughly translates to "application of the war art" where as wushu roughly means "application of the national art". I was just under the impression that wushu, the use of the term and the more modern showy stuff where connected. As I've come to believe based upon my research there is no "CMA" group term. Each family had there own system. The names of the multiple CMA systems are vast, some died out some joined, some more popular but it was everywhere.


I was told sometimes a student would go and see there sifu and learn 1-2 techinques then go back to there normal life and practice it everyday while working the fields or what not. and this help to spur the family traditions as that student would pass it down to there family. like wise old soldiers doing the same, or even those who traveled and stayed at a school or shaolin for a few years and brought back there art to teach in there own fashion.

Oh and I was not saying the Triads is what is left of CMA styles. I just meant I had read that alot of the rebellions lead to many of the masters coming together and forming the triads.


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

While we are on history and all...not sure if this should be it's own thread or not...but Wudang? What are your thoughts if you have any experience with the arts of Wudang moutain. From what I understand they are a Taoist temple and training in there own version of Taij, Bagua, Xingyi, Qigong and Mediation.


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## clfsean (Feb 7, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong on anything I'm about to type. As mentioned before my sources are second hand and I'm repeating what was heard or read.
> 
> Fair enough and I thank you  my comment on the wushu. As I understand it, I have also read about Kung Fu. the story of an American touring the temple or some such place and asked what they are doing and the reply was "kung fu" as in they are working out. That is one story I remember about the origin of the name Kung-Fu. I've also found it to mean "Great skill" as you can have Kung-Fu in anything you do. One of my old instructors told me it's more appropriate to call CMA (which is a new acronym I found on this forum never heard it before.) Koshu (not sure on spelling) which roughly translates to "application of the war art" where as wushu roughly means "application of the national art". I was just under the impression that wushu, the use of the term and the more modern showy stuff where connected. As I've come to believe based upon my research there is no "CMA" group term. Each family had there own system. The names of the multiple CMA systems are vast, some died out some joined, some more popular but it was everywhere.
> 
> ...



I think it was a French Missionary that first coined "gungfu". 

Kuoshu / Wushu is the same. One is from Taiwan, one the PRC & both to piss the other off & scream "WE'RE RIGHT, THEY'RE WRONG" at the world. The reason your old instructor told you to use Kuoshu is Tien Shan Pai was put together in Taiwan.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2013)

When using the term "wushu" nowadays we need to make the distinction between Traditional Wushu and Modern Wushu.  When the term Wushu is used alone, people tend to assume it is in reference to Modern Wushu.  Traditional is the old fighting methods.  Modern Wushu was a method developed by the Communist government beginning in the 1950s, designed to be a national competition and performance sport/art.  It deliberately removed itself from fighting application, and techniques were modified for the sake of asthetics even to the detriment of the use in real fighting.  The original Modern Wushu was closer to the real fighting methods, and over the years it has gotten farther and farther away, until today it is pretty much a separate animal, completely devoid of useful fighting skills.  It is martially inspired performance, pure and simple.  It has become more and more visually dazzling as the acrobatics have become more and more challenging, but this has lead to a lot more injuries.  My first sifu also trained with the Beijing Wushu team and got his coaching certificate, back in the 1980s.  He told me that back then, nobody was injured.  But now, even the Beijing team, the top Modern Wushu team on the planet, many of the people are injured with wrapped knees, ankles, shoulders, etc.  The training has gotten so ridiculous in terms of acrobatics and the desire to please an audience that the training has become hazardous and injurious.

He said that there is a movement to try and bring Modern Wushu back into the realm of real martial training, but I think that would be a very small group.  Most are just scrambling to keep up with the standards set by Beijing, and everyone gets injured at some point because it gets more and more extreme.

So yeah, Wushu means essentially fighting method or art.  But Modern wushu and Traditional wushu are two different animals.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2013)

In Traditional Wushu/traditional Chinese martial arts, forms are meant to be a tool used to drill and practice the methods, principles, and techniques upon which the system is built.  Forms are a tool used to develop your skill.  They were never meant to impress an audience.  They were never meant to be seen by an audience.  What an audience might think of the form is irrelevant, as long as the practice of the form is helping you develop your skill.

In Modern Wushu, forms are meant for pure performance.  They are designed to impress a mostly un-educated audience, who doesn't really know what they are looking at.  Modern Wushu has turned martial arts into performance art, something that it was never intended to be.

Keep in mind, martial arts were secret once-upon-a-time.  You didn't want anyone else to know what you know or don't know, because that would give them an advantage over you if you ever need to defend yourself against them.

Times have changed, this is really no longer such an issue in the modern world.  But Modern Wushu, as a deliberate performance art, is the complete antithesis to this very idea.  It puts it all out there for the world to gawk at, as a performance.  But the material being performed is no longer legitimate fighting method, it is pure performance.  The very nature of the material has changed, as well as the purpose for doing it.

in traditional martial arts, your forms are part of your tool box.  Asking to see someone's forms is kinda like going to look at a house you might buy, and asking to gawk at the contractor's tools, first.  I realize that we tend to use forms to show people the flavor and spirit of our system, but when you think about it, it's not what it was meant for.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> When using the term "wushu" nowadays we need to make the distinction between Traditional Wushu and Modern Wushu. When the term Wushu is used alone, people tend to assume it is in reference to Modern Wushu. Traditional is the old fighting methods. Modern Wushu was a method developed by the Communist government beginning in the 1950s, designed to be a national competition and performance sport/art. It deliberately removed itself from fighting application, and techniques were modified for the sake of asthetics even to the detriment of the use in real fighting. The original Modern Wushu was closer to the real fighting methods, and over the years it has gotten farther and farther away, until today it is pretty much a separate animal, completely devoid of useful fighting skills. It is martially inspired performance, pure and simple. It has become more and more visually dazzling as the acrobatics have become more and more challenging, but this has lead to a lot more injuries. My first sifu also trained with the Beijing Wushu team and got his coaching certificate, back in the 1980s. He told me that back then, nobody was injured. But now, even the Beijing team, the top Modern Wushu team on the planet, many of the people are injured with wrapped knees, ankles, shoulders, etc. The training has gotten so ridiculous in terms of acrobatics and the desire to please an audience that the training has become hazardous and injurious.
> 
> He said that there is a movement to try and bring Modern Wushu back into the realm of real martial training, but I think that would be a very small group. Most are just scrambling to keep up with the standards set by Beijing, and everyone gets injured at some point because it gets more and more extreme.
> 
> So yeah, Wushu means essentially fighting method or art. But Modern wushu and Traditional wushu are two different animals.



Even Jet Li came out against the newest version of Modern Wushu. I believe he said it was sloppy and dangerous


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Even Jet Li came out against the newest version of Modern Wushu. I believe he said it was sloppy and dangerous



yep, and it may be that Jet Li was part of the movement to try and bring it back into the realm of real martial method.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 7, 2013)

Blaze,  in the long video you posted, the SD demonstration in Xian, CHina, most of the rest of the stuff being demonstrated by the Chinese looked to me like Modern Wushu.  When the form includes a lot of running around and high kicking and jumping and acrobatics, that's signature Modern Wushu.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

(CMA = Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA = Traditional Chinese Martial Arts)



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong on anything I'm about to type. As mentioned before my sources are second hand and I'm repeating what was heard or read.



Well you told me to so&#8230;



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Fair enough and I thank you my comment on the wushu. As I understand it, I have also read about Kung Fu. the story of an American touring the temple or some such place and asked what they are doing and the reply was "kung fu" as in they are working out. That is one story I remember about the origin of the name Kung-Fu. I've also found it to mean "Great skill" as you can have Kung-Fu in anything you do. One of my old instructors told me it's more appropriate to call CMA (which is a new acronym I found on this forum never heard it before.) Koshu (not sure on spelling) which roughly translates to "application of the war art" where as wushu roughly means "application of the national art". I was just under the impression that wushu, the use of the term and the more modern showy stuff where connected. As I've come to believe based upon my research there is no "CMA" group term. Each family had there own system. The names of the multiple CMA systems are vast, some died out some joined, some more popular but it was everywhere.



Nope, that is wrong, Kung Fu means hard work not &#8220;Great Skill&#8221;. Wushu means martial arts on Mainland China and I see clfsean already posted Koshu is martial arts in Taiwan Mandarin.

So when the guy going around asking people what are you doing they said Kung Fu (hard work) and Kung fu can be applied to anything. 

There is a CMA group term and it is Wushu. All his stuff here is Wushu, even the one listed as Wushu


The &#8220;Showy stuff&#8221; is also Wushu but I tend to refer to it as Modern Wushu. There were and are multiple CMA systems some have family names and some do not but they are all Wushu



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> I was told sometimes a student would go and see there sifu and learn 1-2 techinques then go back to there normal life and practice it everyday while working the fields or what not. and this help to spur the family traditions as that student would pass it down to there family. like wise old soldiers doing the same, or even those who traveled and stayed at a school or shaolin for a few years and brought back there art to teach in there own fashion.



Yes and no. There are stories, some even verifiable, of a Xingyiquan sifu showing a student Santi Shi, making him stand in it fir a year and then coming back and showing him &#8220;one&#8221; of the 5 elements to train for awhule, assuming he had Santi right and so on and so on. As for this starting family traditions, don&#8217;t really know. I know that a person would go learn a lot or all of a system and then change it a bit based on their prior experince and/or needs and/or body style and come up with a system. 



BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Oh and I was not saying the Triads is what is left of CMA styles. I just meant I had read that alot of the rebellions lead to many of the masters coming together and forming the triads.



Some of the CMA guys, some from Shaolin did do that as well but it started as fighters against the new Ruling Dynasty and the organized crime stuff came later


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> yep, and it may be that Jet Li was part of the movement to try and bring it back into the realm of real martial method.



I believe you are right he posted  an article on his website about this


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> While we are on history and all...not sure if this should be it's own thread or not...but Wudang? What are your thoughts if you have any experience with the arts of Wudang moutain. From what I understand they are a Taoist temple and training in there own version of Taij, Bagua, Xingyi, Qigong and Mediation.



Wudang was a Taoist temple that had its own martial arts and Wudang is a Taoist temple and tourist attraction that has its own versions of certain martial arts but the two are not exactly the same. You need to be careful with Wudang since there is the stuff the actual Monks learn and then there is the stuff the tourist see and they are not the same. The PRC is building a rather large high level Hotel at Wudang for tourist (sadly, they are doin the same and Chenjiaguo too) However the full Wudang Curriculum is pretty rigorous and you have to learn a whole bunch of stuff before you get to Xingyiquan and after Xingyi you get to Baguazhang and then lastly Taijiquan. And although the current Wudang is not the same or likely as skilled as the old I have to say it still impresses me. 

I also like their Taijiquan, but I look at it as more of a slow moving Wushu than actual Taijiquan if that makes any sense. The applications I have seen fo the Wudang Taijiquan are pretty darn good and rather effective but here is the thing, I don&#8217;t think that many of them really know what they are so finding a guy that knows it I think is a lot harder than it looks. There is a guy I know of that does but then I am not sure he learned it all at Wudang. He is a raveling monk that spent many years at Wudang but he admits to training with other people outside of Wudang afterwards so I am not exactly sure where his understanding of the form and its applications came from,. I just know they are pretty effective and fit the forms he is doing


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> Blaze,  in the long video you posted, the SD demonstration in Xian, CHina, most of the rest of the stuff being demonstrated by the Chinese looked to me like Modern Wushu.  When the form includes a lot of running around and high kicking and jumping and acrobatics, that's signature Modern Wushu.



Understandable, i was under that impression..


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> (CMA = Chinese Martial Arts, TCMA = Traditional Chinese Martial Arts)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That I did sir and I thank you kindly  there is alot of "stories" to short out figured I'd bring up a few and discuss


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Wudang was a Taoist temple that had its own martial arts and Wudang is a Taoist temple and tourist attraction that has its own versions of certain martial arts but the two are not exactly the same. You need to be careful with Wudang since there is the stuff the actual Monks learn and then there is the stuff the tourist see and they are not the same. The PRC is building a rather large high level Hotel at Wudang for tourist (sadly, they are doin the same and Chenjiaguo too) However the full Wudang Curriculum is pretty rigorous and you have to learn a whole bunch of stuff before you get to Xingyiquan and after Xingyi you get to Baguazhang and then lastly Taijiquan. And although the current Wudang is not the same or likely as skilled as the old I have to say it still impresses me.
> 
> I also like their Taijiquan, but I look at it as more of a slow moving Wushu than actual Taijiquan if that makes any sense. The applications I have seen fo the Wudang Taijiquan are pretty darn good and rather effective but here is the thing, I don&#8217;t think that many of them really know what they are so finding a guy that knows it I think is a lot harder than it looks. There is a guy I know of that does but then I am not sure he learned it all at Wudang. He is a raveling monk that spent many years at Wudang but he admits to training with other people outside of Wudang afterwards so I am not exactly sure where his understanding of the form and its applications came from,. I just know they are pretty effective and fit the forms he is doing



Yes...it seems the issue I run into with any martial arts...finding the real deal and distinguishing performance art from combat art etc. I have a great passion for CMA and the spiritual arts with it. Taoism has always fascinated me and I incorporate what I believe to be taoist thought into my personal life. Add in long hair, a fondness for robes, and a love of martial arts and I can't help but take a double take at Wudang. It seems to have all the elements I'm fond of, Taoism, Mysticism, Chinese Martial Arts, and even long hair and robes 

So of course if I could ever afford to travel to China I have my eye on these two places 

http://www.wudang.org/
http://www.wudanggongfu.com/

no clue if they are any good so I course need more research 

I assume this is what you mean by tourist martial arts lessons?
[video=youtube_share;8J-5qTbCIlw]http://youtu.be/8J-5qTbCIlw[/video]

these however I think look really nice 
[video=youtube_share;0IeWWWSX-YE]http://youtu.be/0IeWWWSX-YE[/video]


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

There are some people who go to Wudang to train and they stay for a few years and they are rather happy about it and trained pretty good too. Is it the same as Wudang of old....doubtful, but if they can afford it and if they enjoy it then good for them. But they are training about 6 to 8 hours a day for 5 to 6 days a week


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> That I did sir and I thank you kindly  there is alot of "stories" to short out figured I'd bring up a few and discuss



Sometimes it can be hard to separate the Wuxia from the Wushu


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Sometimes it can be hard to separate the Wuxia from the Wushu



tell me about... I'm trying to do the best I can with what resources are available to me. Sadly there is not much American's can go off of. Though it's popular it's not that popular and rarely is truth talked about. There are many stories that teach GREAT lessons. sorting out lessons from historical facts is hard. 

I guess at the end of the day, they are all stories. What was is not as important as what is. Contentment in one's art and self development and expression I think matter the most.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> tell me about... I'm trying to do the best I can with what resources are available to me. Sadly there is not much American's can go off of. Though it's popular it's not that popular and rarely is truth talked about. There are many stories that teach GREAT lessons. sorting out lessons from historical facts is hard.
> 
> I guess at the end of the day, they are all stories. What was is not as important as what is. Contentment in one's art and self development and expression I think matter the most.



Blaze

I tend to really get into the history of the CMA styles I train and what I do is read a lot of stuff and eventually things start to pop out that you can be pretty sure are true. Some are absolutely true some are questionable and some are downright false. What is difficult is that some of those things that are questionable and false are incredibly appealing so it is hard to discredit them. Also there are people in CMA history who wrote about people and gave those people credit for things when in fact it is virtually impossible to prove that person ever existed. Another issue is that some guy out in the countryside of China comes up with a martial art and he becomes very good at it, but he is completely unknown so he credits his art to some person in history that is famous. Now he has a art that was taught to him in secret by a student of that person or a student of a student or he discovered a secret manual. And he can now make lots of money teaching his style. I tend to be very suspicions of any art that is attributed to General Guan Yu because of this and my favorite CMA of all time, Xingyiquan, has been linked to him. But you can only truly trace it back to the Dai family and their Xinyi (not Xingyi). 

Bagua is traceable to Dong Haichuan but there is one other claim (possibly two) saying their ancestor learned circle walking from the same Taoist Dong Haichuan learned from and that is called Yin Yang Bapazhang. But the majority of Bagua is unquestionably from Dong Haichuan.

Taijiquan is harder and you can really only get back to Chen Wangting with certainty. But it most likely was a combination of things that Chen Wangting put together. My opinion is it is from whatever the family style of Chen was plus some Shaolin Paoqui (cannon fist) with a bit of an earlier Qigong that allegedly was called Taijiqigong. But that is pure speculation based on what I have read so all you really have is Chen Wangting.

Some CMA styles are pretty easy to trace and others are not. Some are easy to trace only so far and others all the way to the origin. The oldest martial art that is currently still being trained is Shuailjiao and it is allegedly traceable back to another art called Jiao Di that existed around 2600BC. Jiao Li which can be found during the Zhao dynasty (1050&#8211;256 BC) is allegedly from Jiao Di. But it is highly likely that Jiao Li became Shuaijiao. Yet we really cannot figure out where Taiji came from prior to Chen Wangting (1580&#8211;1660)

Frankly I find this stuff fascinating but it really does not help training all that much so you can research the history but ultimately is does not really matter if you want to undersatnd a specific style. To do that you need to train it


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## WC_lun (Feb 7, 2013)

I know the history part of Wing Chun can be very hard to decode because the Chinese government outlawed it because it was designed to be used by rebel troops.  Get caught doing Wing Chun and you got killed and so did your entire family, including relatively distant relatives.  That caused a lot of secrecy and misinformation to be spread, which makes fact a hard thing to be certain of.  I assume this happened with other martial arts as well at one time or another.  Then you have the tendency of humans to spread tall tales as fact, particularly if it they can link themselves to it, which muddy the waters even further.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 7, 2013)

WC_lun said:


> I know the history part of Wing Chun can be very hard to decode because the Chinese government outlawed it because it was designed to be used by rebel troops. Get caught doing Wing Chun and you got killed and so did your entire family, including relatively distant relatives. That caused a lot of secrecy and misinformation to be spread, which makes fact a hard thing to be certain of. I assume this happened with other martial arts as well at one time or another. Then you have the tendency of humans to spread tall tales as fact, particularly if it they can link themselves to it, which muddy the waters even further.



I could happen with any style in old China, that is why CMA teachers of old did not take on students so easily or advertise much. A stutent goes out and does somethig stupid and it could get the sifu and his family killed too.


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## Blaze Dragon (Feb 7, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Blaze
> 
> I tend to really get into the history of the CMA styles I train and what I do is read a lot of stuff and eventually things start to pop out that you can be pretty sure are true. Some are absolutely true some are questionable and some are downright false. What is difficult is that some of those things that are questionable and false are incredibly appealing so it is hard to discredit them. Also there are people in CMA history who wrote about people and gave those people credit for things when in fact it is virtually impossible to prove that person ever existed. Another issue is that some guy out in the countryside of China comes up with a martial art and he becomes very good at it, but he is completely unknown so he credits his art to some person in history that is famous. Now he has a art that was taught to him in secret by a student of that person or a student of a student or he discovered a secret manual. And he can now make lots of money teaching his style. I tend to be very suspicions of any art that is attributed to General Guan Yu because of this and my favorite CMA of all time, Xingyiquan, has been linked to him. But you can only truly trace it back to the Dai family and their Xinyi (not Xingyi).
> 
> ...



Cool  yeah I just like history and honoring the past  I think it's neat and fun. I mean I don't want to turn this thread into another SD thread, however I greatly enjoy my training. The sad thing is there is no cool lineage to trace the forms. We do them different, why? Where did what come from? why did it change? Are there people today in China that are still deadly masters? (from our earlier conversation yes). 

I see alot of "money, money, money". Good or bad arts, slap names on them, and then it gets all confused. I'm cool with what using what works for me 

but I still want to get back and honor where it came from. These arts are not easy, ANY art. I mean even Taiji which I'm focusing on alot lately. Apparently it was not always called Taiji, though I guess I should call it Taijiquan so as not to confuse it with "Taiji" the spirituality/philosophy. From what I read, Yang was seen fighting and they said his martial art was unbeatable and someone made the comment of his "grand ultimate fist" and the name stuck. I dont' think it was called Taiji before that but I could be wrong. i think stuff like this is extremely interesting and enjoy reading about it and hearing all the legends and tales.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> Cool  yeah I just like history and honoring the past  I think it's neat and fun. I mean I don't want to turn this thread into another SD thread, however I greatly enjoy my training. The sad thing is there is no cool lineage to trace the forms. We do them different, why? Where did what come from? why did it change? Are there people today in China that are still deadly masters? (from our earlier conversation yes).
> 
> I see alot of "money, money, money". Good or bad arts, slap names on them, and then it gets all confused. I'm cool with what using what works for me
> 
> but I still want to get back and honor where it came from. These arts are not easy, ANY art. I mean even Taiji which I'm focusing on alot lately. Apparently it was not always called Taiji, though I guess I should call it Taijiquan so as not to confuse it with "Taiji" the spirituality/philosophy. From what I read, Yang was seen fighting and they said his martial art was unbeatable and someone made the comment of his "grand ultimate fist" and the name stuck. I dont' think it was called Taiji before that but I could be wrong. i think stuff like this is extremely interesting and enjoy reading about it and hearing all the legends and tales.




Actually it was not called taijiquan until Wu Yuxiang started calling it Taijiquan and yes there are highly skilled martial artists in China


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## Flying Crane (Feb 8, 2013)

I think that for most foreigners who go to China to study martial arts, they end up learning some form of Modern Wushu.  That is what the government encourages, so that is what has taken over.  Even at places like Shaolin, I believe they are teaching mostly modern wushu, and if they also teach traditional wushu, then it is probably more difficult for a foreigner to get that kind of instruction there.  Places like Shaolin have become very touristy and are all about making money now, with the blessing of the government, and the gov. sees it as an opportunity to spread the national sport and art of Modern Wushu. 

So yeah, there are still skilled people doing traditional martial arts in China, but I don't think it's always very available to foreigners.  In most cases I think it's smaller, private training groups, probably without any govt. support.  You need to have connections to the right people who will get you in the door first.  If you just go there by yourself and look for a "school", then most likely it's modern wushu that you will be training.

And I think at places like Chen Village, they accept foreigners, but I believe the training you would get is pretty superficial.  Just because you show up and say, "I'm here to learn" doesn't mean they are gonna just dish out the goods to you.  You get the superficial instruction that makes foreigners happy and makes them believe they "got instruction" at the Chen Village and brings in money.  But you didn't learn much, didn't go very deep.  If you don't have some deeper connections to someone there, or you don't actually stay for a long time and prove your worth and your desire to really learn, that's probably all you get.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2013)

Flying Crane said:


> I think that for most foreigners who go to China to study martial arts, they end up learning some form of Modern Wushu. That is what the government encourages, so that is what has taken over. Even at places like Shaolin, I believe they are teaching mostly modern wushu, and if they also teach traditional wushu, then it is probably more difficult for a foreigner to get that kind of instruction there. Places like Shaolin have become very touristy and are all about making money now, with the blessing of the government, and the gov. sees it as an opportunity to spread the national sport and art of Modern Wushu.
> 
> So yeah, there are still skilled people doing traditional martial arts in China, but I don't think it's always very available to foreigners. In most cases I think it's smaller, private training groups, probably without any govt. support. You need to have connections to the right people who will get you in the door first. If you just go there by yourself and look for a "school", then most likely it's modern wushu that you will be training.
> 
> And I think at places like Chen Village, they accept foreigners, but I believe the training you would get is pretty superficial. Just because you show up and say, "I'm here to learn" doesn't mean they are gonna just dish out the goods to you. You get the superficial instruction that makes foreigners happy and makes them believe they "got instruction" at the Chen Village and brings in money. But you didn't learn much, didn't go very deep. If you don't have some deeper connections to someone there, or you don't actually stay for a long time and prove your worth and your desire to really learn, that's probably all you get.



You are absolutely right, most go there and train Modern Wushu and Sanda at various institutions and I would not have said this a year ago but some of those are damn good fighters because of the Sanda. There is one in my area now that is from one of the Beijing Athletic Universities and his Sanda is damn good. His more traditional looking forms are also impressive but there is no doubt that they are modern wushu 

However you can find some pretty good people in the parks but you have to speak the language and know what you are looking for and what you are looking at. There are a few schools that you can find too but agian you need to speak the language. When I was in Tiantan park I saw a lot of people doing various styles of martial arts, mostly Yang taiji. However all the yang Taiji I saw was pretty bad. There were 3 older guys who looked pretty good but I only saw the end of the form...then they stopped lit up some cigarettes and started talking. I saw the most incredible Changquan there and I saw some pretty impressive Northern Wu and way off I saw some good Chen but the rest not so good...other than the guys doing tuishou, they were good. However when I approached them they all stopped sat down and started talking. However I am told that there were better CMA people in another park, I think it was Beihai Park. But how much you get out of this depends on how long you are going to stay in China. And sometimes if you are there long enough you find a great teacher that you otherwise would not find if you were not already there, training and speaking the language

I will also add that I was supposed to meet a Taijiquan guy there who as telling my in-laws how good he was and how he would love to meet with me. That was until he asked if I had done Taiji before and asked if I had a lineage. After they told him I was learning from a student of Tung Ying Cheih he all of a sudden was not so good and did not want to meet me. I also meant a gentleman there who was Xingyi/Bagua and he was very good and I was meeting him with the intent of training with him but he spoke no English and my Mandarin was not so good and... well, he scared the hell out of me with a stare I have only seen from good Xingyiquan people. So I chickened out, I regret that, but what&#8217;s done is done


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## clfsean (Feb 8, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> You are absolutely right, most go there and train Modern Wushu and Sanda at various institutions and I would not have said this a year ago but some of those are damn good fighters because of the Sanda. There is one in my area now that is from one of the Beijing Athletic Universities and his Sanda is damn good. His more traditional looking forms are also impressive but there is no doubt that they are modern wushu
> 
> However you can find some pretty good people in the parks but you have to speak the language and know what you are looking for and what you are looking at. There are a few schools that you can find too but agian you need to speak the language. When I was in Tiantan park I saw a lot of people doing various styles of martial arts, mostly Yang taiji. However all the yang Taiji I saw was pretty bad. There were 3 older guys who looked pretty good but I only saw the end of the form...then they stopped lit up some cigarettes and started talking. I saw the most incredible Changquan there and I saw some pretty impressive Northern Wu and way off I saw some good Chen but the rest not so good...other than the guys doing tuishou, they were good. However when I approached them they all stopped sat down and started talking. However I am told that there were better CMA people in another park, I think it was Beihai Park. But how much you get out of this depends on how long you are going to stay in China. And sometimes if you are there long enough you find a great teacher that you otherwise would not find if you were not already there, training and speaking the language
> 
> I will also add that I was supposed to meet a Taijiquan guy there who as telling my in-laws how good he was and how he would love to meet with me. That was until he asked if I had done Taiji before and asked if I had a lineage. After they told him I was learning from a student of Tung Ying Cheih he all of a sudden was not so good and did not want to meet me. I also meant a gentleman there who was Xingyi/Bagua and he was very good and I was meeting him with the intent of training with him but he spoke no English and my Mandarin was not so good and... well, he scared the hell out of me with a stare I have only seen from good Xingyiquan people. So I chickened out, I regret that, but what&#8217;s done is done



Yeah... saw the same at Tian Tan. When I was there, CZL's nephew in law (and disciple as well) was teaching on the Southern Gate road in the park. He was really freaking good. I think BT's Yin teacher teaches on the north side of TianTan, but I didn't make it that far through the park. 

I didn't make it to Jing Shan park north of the Forbidden City, but heard there was good stuff there as well.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 8, 2013)

clfsean said:


> Yeah... saw the same at Tian Tan. When I was there, CZL's nephew in law (and disciple as well) was teaching on the Southern Gate road in the park. He was really freaking good. I think BT's Yin teacher teaches on the north side of TianTan, but I didn't make it that far through the park.
> 
> I didn't make it to Jing Shan park north of the Forbidden City, but heard there was good stuff there as well.



Next time I go, which was supposed to be last month  I plan on checking Beihai and now Jing Shan, thanks. And if the knees are working I may wander on over to the South Gate of Tianten. But I will likely only be there for a week, maybe two so there will not be much time to train a lot.

Things got surreal in Tainten. I was I am walking around for hours and seeing all this Martial Arts and listening to people playing traditional Chinese music on traditional Chinese instruments and then I take and turn and the next thing I know&#8230;it&#8217;s the TANGO followed by various other dances


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## clfsean (Feb 8, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> Next time I go, which was supposed to be last month  I plan on checking Beihai and now Jing Shan, thanks. And if the knees are working I may wander on over to the South Gate of Tianten. But I will likely only be there for a week, maybe two so there will not be much time to train a lot.
> 
> Things got surreal in Tainten. I was I am walking around for hours and seeing all this Martial Arts and listening to people playing traditional Chinese music on traditional Chinese instruments and then I take and turn and the next thing I know&#8230;it&#8217;s the TANGO followed by various other dances



Yep remember the dancing... two handed badmitton without a net & old ladies playing like devils... lots of Mulan fans... lots of tree bumping qigong types... the screamers in the rows of trees...


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## Flying Crane (Feb 8, 2013)

BlazeLeeDragon said:


> While we are on history and all...not sure if this should be it's own thread or not...but Wudang? What are your thoughts if you have any experience with the arts of Wudang moutain. From what I understand they are a Taoist temple and training in there own version of Taij, Bagua, Xingyi, Qigong and Mediation.



I was there in late 2008, in the city of Shir-An (or something like that, I can't quite remember now) but was unable to go on the trip up the mountain to the temples or whatever it is.  I had a bad meal on the airplane and was unable to be away from the facilities for longer than an hour or so.  So I stayed behind.  Too bad, they were making an effort to open that area to tourism and it would have been interesting to see, particularly because it was still in the early stages. 

A couple fellows from the Wudang martial arts whatever it is, came down to our hotel and were doing some kind of demo, I stumbled into it one evening.  There were a lot of foreigners from all over the world there, it was a big international tournament going on and I was part of the US team (I don't think the bar was set too high to get on the team, it just required that you had won in some way at some affiliated local tournament at some point in recent history, it was all forms competition).  They were demoing some techs on voluteers, the general consensus of the croud was that they were impressed.  Given the delicate condition of my digestion at the time, I didn't dare step forward and get involved in the demo.  I remember thinking they looked pretty good.  That was before I switched over to my current sifu, and my understanding at the time was much poorer than it is now.  I would like to witness that kind of demo now, with a better overall understanding of this stuff, and see what I think.  

Anyway, I wish circumstances had allowed me to go on the trip up the mountain.  It would have been interesting to see firsthand.


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