# To-Shin Do and the Togakure Ninja Spirit



## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

The fact is hard to deny that many originally found the Bujinkan, To-Shin Do, the other X-kans and so on, for not only the effective self defense but also their association with the mysterious ninja of old Japan. 

I mean seriously, in my old ABD curriculum, during the kyu ranks you learned everything from Nobori Kata to kihon Shukojutsu.  Not as much emphasis was put on the taijutsu, though.  I mean, during the first belt rank, you learned how to do ONE punch and chi no kata.  For that matter, you learned to do it from shizen and weren't taught a defensive kamae.  Now although one punch can be used in many ways, HONESTLY, do you think a white belt, straight off the press, will be able to have the capacity to learn all the beneficial aways to use Fudo within this level.  I wasn't.  Nonetheless, after I was done with the Mountains of Strength curriculum, I was confident I would be able to defend myself against your average, drunken or street mean un-armed aggressor.

So maybe the effectiveness of Anshu's art isn't the issue...perhaps because it has seemed to stray TOO FAR from what the Bujinkan deems appropriate, and ultimately ninja.  But is this truly the case.  I've read COUNTLESS interviews with Hatsumi-sensei speaking on what the true essence of the ninja is, and seen many Bujinkan practitioner's views, far before I even considered taking the art.  Remember, I studied Bujinkan before I even HEARD of Stephen K. Hayes, and at one time had a prejudice against him ENCOURAGED from my Bujinkan associates, because of him STRAYING so far from the path.  

Hatsumi-sensei once said that the best example of ninja spirit he's seen in American media was the "Ninja Turtles."  I found that BEYOND amusing, when I first heard it, and brushed it off as a joke, until I watched their movies again, and it hit me.  What he must've been speaking on was the will to protect others and yet be completely anonymous about it.  The ability to empathize with common society, and blend in with them when necessary.  The ability to realize the strength in your comrades, your team, your ninja family, and how everyone has something of value to bring to the table.  

Many claim that Anshu has strayed from the path, but from what I've observed, he's only went to the next step.  There's a belief, a process if you will, common in Japanese martial arts, specifically ko ryu.  This principle is called Shu-Ha-Ri.

We are made RATHER familiar with it in Eishin ryu Iaijutsu (the FIRST Katana drawing art).  The principle is defined as follows:

SHU:  The beginning of your training.  You stick to the specific guidelines of your sensei, taking in their knowledge and wisdom, experience and technical know-how, and you mimick, learn, and absorb it.  The perfect student.  The perfect apprentice.

HA:  Now you're a teacher.  You are of significant status and rank, and you've acquire many skills, but you are still teaching under your sensei's shadow, allowing him to still dictate your curriculum's major needs, and trying your utmost to stick closely by it.  You're not a master yet, close, but not one yet, and there's much more you have to learn.

RI:  Here's the scary one.  Here's where you leave mom and dad at home and pursue your own life, so to speak.  Now, you are a master, a senior one, at that, and you have the same experience your master had when he first taught you.  Your master's advice will ALWAYS be valuable, and you will seek it until his or her passing and remember it afterward, but you are to dictate, translate, and update the teachings of the old to fit the problems of the new.  Are they completely different techniques...some may look like it, but they hold the same principles, and that's what counts, what keeps it NINJA!

Soke Hatsumi once said during an interview:

[SIZE=+1]"The tradition in martial arts has always been to make progress, to adapt to the period in which it was practiced so it becomes more efficient and more practical." (An Interview between Bujinkan practitioner Bernard Bordas 10th dan, and Hatsumi-sensei).

Apparently many missed this lesson, because they on Anshu, when he decided to take that next step in his training, and transcend into the endless realm of Ri, becoming legend!  Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing.  Their names will carry on ONLY with those who were personal friends, and their variations and knowledge will never be accredited to their HARD WORK, though they may deserve said recognition for years of service and study.  Anshu seemed not to be will to stop learning and growing, and so he took that scary step, but he has FAR from strayed.  Even his contemporary basics pervade the classical teachings of Koto ryu and Gyokko ryu.  

The main Earth stability punch defenses are based off of Yoku-to and Ko-yoku of Koto ryu Koppojutsu.  The back collar grabbing attack is based off of Yubi Kudaki of Gyokko ryu Kosshijutsu.  Koto ryu's Bobi no Kamae is taught, with variations practical for self defense of our time, Hicho for the kick defense, as well as the other kamae:  ichimonji, both Gyokko & Koto, and Doko for Waves of Power, Jumonji and Hoko primarily for Lightning Strikes, Hira no kamae dominates Eye of the Storm curriculum.

He also requires some classical training too, as well as weapons traditionally used, and some modern henka-variations.  Truly the best of both worlds...  But, even with all that, he encourages the ninja mindset.  Hattori Hanzo, Momochi Sandayu, Daisuke Togakure, Kotaro Fuma, Ishikawa Goemon, Sarutobi Sasuke...and the list continues...all, for reasons good or bad, are LEGENDS for their contributions...some may not even be real, others were but accomplished unreal feats or heroism!  He encourages the brave, enduring attitude of the Ninja legends of old, and during the last seminar at Mountain Quest, taught us that our training developed heroes.  The ninja past were HEROES.  Villains to some, but to others, saver of lives.  The truly great ones, you'll NEVER know about, but their accomplishments call to us from the shadows.  Anshu's training embodies becoming that which the Japanese Ninja have been for many of us who pursued Ninpo from 2 to 20 years ago...the heroism, and so is why, EVEN WITHOUT the approval of senior Japanese instructors, or Hatsumi himself, I follow Anshu's teachings, for such teaches are the ones of legend.

_"_[/SIZE]_[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The vast universe,      beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good      or bad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening      his eyes and his mind, the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons      and reasons of heaven, changing just as change is necessary, adapting always,      so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise for the Ninja." -Takamatsu Toshitsugu-den

[/FONT]_[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]When will we finally he'd this last living ninja's wise words, and realize the road blocks we set up for ourselves from jealousy?  

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Practitioner
[/FONT]


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Apparently many missed this lesson, because they on Anshu, when he decided to take that next step in his training, and transcend into the endless realm of Ri, becoming legend!  Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing.



Do you realize just how insulting this is?

You are a blue belt who pretty much learned all he knows from video courses. For someone like you to comment on how people with _decades_ more experience are stuck in something and just don't get it strikes me as being both egotistical and silly.

I happen to have more than one person I call friend who is a "15 degrees" (sic) in the Bujinkan.

Take a look at how they might view things.

Does anyone know more about ninjutsu that Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan? Please, show your hands! Let us see who wants to announce that they know more than Mr Hatsumi!

For those who _don't_ think that they know more than Mr Hatsumi, it would seem logical to try to find out more from those more knowledgable. To do otherwise, to decide *yourself* that you know enough to go off on your own and that you do not need any more instruction, probably strikes them as being a bit egotistical.

If Mr Hatsumi gives them something like _Menkyo Kaiden_ then it shows that _he_ thinks you are ready to go off on your own. If you lack that, then by going off on your own you are saying you know better than your teacher on what you need to learn. Try letting the kids in high school choose what they will learn and see what happens.

Mr Hatsumi is not going to be around forever. In fact, he is declining pretty fast. Compare pictures from just a year ago to the most recent ones and you can see the difference. Any chance you might have to learn from him may not exist in a few years, maybe months. Someday you _will_ have to live without the guidence, experience and direction he can give you. But before that day comes, there is still stuff you can learn and experience from him.

You will have to do your own thing at some point. But for now you have to chance to learn from someone who has more knowledge and experience than you. Those guys you are insulting probably just think that they can put off doing their own thing for as long as possible and for right now swollow their ego and just learn all they can while they have the chance.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

You equate belt rank in one martial artwith experience in the martial arts.  Shu Ha Ri applies to many arts, and though it seemed as if I were saying it, such has been the opinion of many who've trained outside the Bujinkan.  Perhaps I should've included a disclaimer that many of my seeming opinions are merely those I've heard and leaned more towards, for they seemed educated.  

I don't claim, nor boast to have anywhere NEAR the experience of these Shihan.  Throughout my post, I made sure to not discredit them for their schools nor experience, in itself.  Nonetheless, as an American, with freedom of speech, I have the right to my observations.  And I must say, looking outside in to the Ninpo community, the insults given from some of these masters of high degree truly lower my sense of respect for them.  NOT ONCE have I read an article, nor in person, heard Stephen K. Hayes insult them, yet COUNTLESS times have I been on forums to where specific teachers, (names I respectfully know but will not lower myself to throw out there), insult Anshu outwardly, showing no respect for his experience, and pioneering work.

I've stated what I and others have observed, and while I welcome your debate, I do NOT, your reproof.  If you feel I've insulted anyone, understand it was not intentional, just voicing my opinion like everyone else does here (I've read MUCH of the less savory, and yet unchallenged opinions of some BBT members and associates).  

While you insult my way of learning, I have done so because I've found it to be FAR better than what some OTHER schools of Authentic Ninpo offer.  This, too, is my opinion, and to take it, or this entire entry, as well as well as the previous, as an insult, is merely an exercise in futility, for there are none written or intended.  

I'd like to apologize if my rebuttal seems a little harsh. As I said, I am only stating my opinion, and never claimed anyone knew more than Hatsumi sensei...if I did, than why would I quote him? Your argument makes no sense. I only stated that Anshu took the steps which Hatsumi-sensei, at the time of that interview, said were essential to an effective martial art, and have observed others who stick close to Hatsumi-sensei (which there's nothing wrong with that in itself) but the fact is Anshu shouldn't be insulted because he LISTENED to his teacher, and made it effective! How many other teachers of the BBT have worked with the NSA, the Dalai Lama, or are in the Black Belt Hall of Fame...few if any, that's your answer. Methinks, that counts for something...

Once again, these are things I've observed, and you can bet your black belt (assuming you have one, by the way you feel you can reprove me) that I never claimed anyone had more knowledge of Budo Taijutsu than Dr. Hatsumi, so stop incorrectly paraphrasing my opinions, please! It's called slander.


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## SKB (Aug 29, 2007)

Toshindoka,

Glad to hear your thoughts on this and other subjects! I agree with alot of what you said! So folks have diffrent thoughts and you just have to roll with them. I look forward to more post from you.


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> As I said, I am only stating my opinion, and never claimed anyone knew more than Hatsumi sensei...if I did, than why would I quote him?



Lets look at that quote.



> "The tradition in martial arts has always been to make progress, to adapt to the period in which it was practiced so it becomes more efficient and more practical."



Now where the heck does that state that you should leave your teacher and do your own thing? There are many skilled people in the Bujinkan who have made what they do practical, even included firearms, and yet still go to learn more every year.

And yet you said, 



> Many 15 degrees sadly are still stuck in the Ha, and seem self-bound to die there without progressing.



Seriously, how on earth would someone like yourself be able to know that sort of thing? Your thinking seems to be 180 degrees from Mr Hatsumi. He says you can't learn his art from video. You say it is better than your other options of a real school.

The simple fact is that Mr Hayes decided that he was good enough to go out on his own and he needed no more real imput from his teacher. If you like what he does, knockyourself out. But Mr Hatsumi ordered Mr Hayes' name taken from the board and said he does not care if people call it _hamon._

It is insulting to say that Mr Hayes is doing what Mr Hatsumi really wants while those people still going to train with Mr Hatsumi do not. You insult those still trying to learn with what you write.

If you want to praise Mr Hayes, leave any comparison with Bujinkan members out of it. Tearing down others to build up another is not the way to have a friendly conversation.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 29, 2007)

Whilst not badly written, I do think that perhaps taking a little longer to settle before putting out 'cage rattling' posts might've been a good idea *Tosh*.

I know that it easy to overlook the fact that an internet fora is a community and take the view that you have a _right_ to express your opinion but that does not invalidate the truth of a place like MartialTalk actually being a public place where many meet and mingle.

I have some strong views on the Cult of the Ninja and of some of Hatsumi Sensei's assertions but, because expressing those views would do nothing other than annoy people here who I have respect for, I keep them to myself.

Is this an infringement of my freedom of speach?  Yes, it certainly is and it makes me grit my teeth on occaison.  However, entering into an emotive argument that you cannot win is a venture that has to be carefuly assessed to see if the 'fallout' is a price worth paying.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes it is worth the upset if you can make a difference in the way people think about something but, most of the time, on the Net, all you achieve is to make 'virtual' enemies.

The best you can do is state what you believe, make it known that you know that this is just your opinion, supported by whatever evidence you have, and accept that others opinions will differ.  If you can (in the academic sense of the word) argue the point calmly then good threads can result - the slightest hint of name-calling or personal denigration tho' will reduce a thread to tatters quicker than you can say "Nazi!".

I hope that that's more than just my tuppence worth and that a member with your obvious flair for the written word can accept it as not bad advice for a productive future on the fora.


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## SKB (Aug 29, 2007)

> The simple fact is that Mr Hayes decided that he was good enough to go out on his own and he needed no more real imput from his teacher.


 
I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?

http://www.skhquest.com/densho_2006.php 

2004 I think







Tuesday, May 23, 2006
"Just weeks ago, Rumiko and I had a delightful time training and speaking with Hatsumi Sensei in Japan. Hatsumi Sensei will always be "my sensei" and as always, I accord him my highest respect and gratitude for all he has shared with me." 

Not sure if this counts as staying in touch? 



> If you like what he does, knockyourself out.


 
Myself and others plan on it. 

Sukerkin is right about how these things can go south quickly!!! heheheheeh


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## bydand (Aug 29, 2007)

Oh lordy, here we go.  Pass the popcorn please.opcorn::cheers:

I'm keeping to the sidelines on this one, seen too many of these discussions head down the toilet to actually get sucked into it.


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

SKB said:


> I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?



Yes, you are wrong.

You might want to check your Anshu's web site. It says that over a year ago he sent off a letter to Mr Hatsumi about the story of his name being taken down. Since that time there has been no announcement of a response and explanation. If there had, it is pretty sure there would be a mention of it.

Anyone who knows a bit about Asian cultures would know that a lack of response in this case is a very large statement in itself. For someone to get a frantic letter from a student about how he has heard that he has been kicked out and not respond for over a year tells volumes.

And it has been done to death here. Check some of the locked threads. See what Bydand is talking about. Try to find someone not in Toshindo but with experience in Japan that feels the same way you do about the matter.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

Correction Mr. E.  I said that I can learn Anshu Hayes' art by dvd AND real instruction...you should listen better.  

Once again, the Japanese Ri principle IS TO LEAVE YOUR TEACHER!  That's what it's about, being independent.  Not forsaking what he or she taught you, but translating it yourself.  How do I know of this principle?  I am a Ko ryu practitioner, Mr. E. and the Shu Ha Ri is the most important outline for our Musha Shugyo.  I advise you calm your insults, sir, they're unnecessary.  I never tore down your art.  TIME AND TIME AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN I HAVE COMPLIMENTED IT so get off of my case and stop causing trouble.  Voice your opinion sir, but if you insult my knowledge of things I've been taught by apparently far more unbiased people than yourself, I will no longer acknowledge your existence, and carry on posting for ones who have sense about them.  

Remember, this is the To-Shin Do section, buddy, take your politics elsewhere...please


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

Perhaps you're right, Sukerkin.  I just expected to admire a martial arts living legend in a thread that's based on him WITHOUT having to worry about antagonizers.  I've politely reasoned with Mr. E., but for his age, if the avatar's any indication, he's not acting very mature...oooo perhaps I shouldn't have said that...oh well.  I might be done with this topic, and I promise to be MORE careful when acknowledging the accomplishments of my organization head.  I KNOW that To-Shin Do isn't Bujinkan.  I don't argue that.  But if Mr. E.'s attitude represents his organization, then I'm also glad it's not.  THIS IS MY OPINION AND I WILL NOT RECANT.


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## SKB (Aug 29, 2007)

Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! _(now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)_




> Yes, you are wrong.


*Sunday, April 23, 2006*
"Rumiko and I rode the trains to Noda City for training at Masaaki Hatsumis Bujinkan Hombu dojo on a rainy Sunday afternoon. It was a nostalgic feeling to walk the streets of Noda once again, and......"

I must be wrong but that sounds like they were in the same room? On your comment about me being just wrong I guess...... kind of rude, for someone who presses the rules of this forum on other folks so much, is it not, to just call me wrong like that? Plus I got to thinking.......... (can you see the pain this caused me?)........ maybe what is or is not going on between Mr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes is none of our business? For someone who points out all these parts of the culture over there you seem to forget some........ at least I think it is one? The senior person does not have to exsplain to the junior why they do something, right? And would not they "lose face" if they put all of their issues out in the open for everyone? I could be wrong?????? Also why do you spend some mush time in this area and the ones used by the Bujikan guys? For someone who claims to not even study the art you spend a lot of time discussing it??? _(and now with no effort I move around the uke, do as I wish and bait him for his next attack, but don't tell him) _


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## bydand (Aug 29, 2007)

SKB said:


> Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! _(now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)_
> 
> 
> 
> _(and now with no effort I move around the uke, do as I wish and bait him for his next attack, but don't tell him) _



Very smooth, I can see some of Tori's movement rubbing off on you.   :lfao:


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## SKB (Aug 29, 2007)

bydand said:


> Very smooth, I can see some of Tori's movement rubbing off on you.  :lfao:


 
GOOD EYE!!!! But shhhhhh don't tell him!!!!


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## alfyed11 (Aug 29, 2007)

I don't believe "Mr. E" is in the Bunjinkan, based on past experience, and I'm not sure why he is involved in these threads at all. 

Mr E, correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm kind of curious about this myself.  Why are you posting on these threads at all? The most I've been able to get from your previous posts is your witty prose and a dislike for SKH.

- Al. Yes, Al


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## MJS (Aug 29, 2007)

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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Correction Mr. E.  I said that I can learn Anshu Hayes' art by dvd AND real instruction...you should listen better.



Ah yes, insults.

Did you read what I said. I said that Mr Hatsumi has said that you can't learn his art from video. That means that you can't learn from video accoriding to him. If you learn from a teacher and video, you are learning from video.



ToShinDoKa said:


> Once again, the Japanese Ri principle IS TO LEAVE YOUR TEACHER!



No, it is not. It means to break through and reach a new level of understanding of the lessons. Leaving your teacher is a seperate issue.

And the question really should not be whether someone thinks _that they_ have gotten past the Shu or Ha sections, but rather listen to a person like their teacher to tell them that they have everything they could be taught already down. So you should be talking to Mr Hatsumi about My Hayes in that regard, not Mr Hayes himself.



ToShinDoKa said:


> I advise you calm your insults, sir, they're unnecessary.



What insults? You are the one that said that people who still study with Mr Hatsumi are caught in a rut. Have you even trained with one of these folks? Can you give a name? That is pretty insulting.

Saying thay you learn from video courses and don't seem to be saying the same things as Mr Hatsumi is a simple statement of fact. If you want to make judgements about 15 degrees (sic) in the Bujinkan, you should be prepared to let it be known on what experiences your judgements are based.


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> I've politely reasoned with Mr. E., but for his age, if the avatar's any indication, he's not acting very mature...oooo perhaps I shouldn't have said that...oh well.



An insult concealed as a complaint about insults. And you really don't know why I am laughing my head off in my tardis about what you wrote about my avatar.

But then again, maybe that is showing my age.


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

SKB said:


> Bydand, these are so much fun!!!! I get to train even here!!!!! _(now don't tell my uke I'm going to get windy-ish right now)_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



One session, over a year ago, and Mr Hatsumi has refused to answer any letters from him since then.

So your comment about,



> I might be wrong but I think Mr. Hayes still keeps in touch with Mr. Hatsumi?



is not correct. Mr Hatsumi ordered that Mr Hayes' name be removed from the board of Bujinkan teachers. There has been no contact between the two since then, no letters even. Before that, there was a single session in 2004 I believe.



> Plus I got to thinking.......... (can you see the pain this caused me?)........ maybe what is or is not going on between Mr. Hatsumi and Mr. Hayes is none of our business?



So why did you bring it up? I didn't. I just responded.

But if Mr Hatsumi thought that the matter was only between him and Mr Hayes, why did he ask to have Mr Hayes' name removed from the board in full view of everyone? Why did he ask certain people to let that news get out?

Seriously, there is so many mistaken assumptions in your posts that I do not know where to start. I do not mean to insult Mr Hayes, but it is a fact that that he decided himself that he had all he had to know before he moved off on his own and that seems not to be the opinion of Mr Hatsumi. If he had problems with what Mr Hatsumi taught and thus went on his own path, I could understand that. But to somehow say that leaving his teacher to fill his teacher's desire strikes me as very, very odd.

One thing you might try to explain to me.... I have noticed that a lot of Toshindo practicioners had the attitude that all the stories about Mr Hayes being on Mr Hatsumi's bad side and that Mr Hatsumi did not want people to train with Mr Hayes should be ignored unless there was some sort of public announcement.

Then, when the name was taken down at Mr Hatsumi's orders, there seems to be a lot of posts by Toshindo people taking Mr Hatsumi to task for making a public statement instead of letting Mr Hayes know outside of the public eye. And, of course we really do not know if Mr Hatsumi let it be known directly prior to the hamon that he was not pleased with what Mr Hayes was doing.

And now of course you are saying that what happens between the two are none of our concern.

Which is it? Because it seems that the story seems to change as the situation does. It really seems that some people were betting that Mr Hatsumi would act like a typical Japanese person and not air bad relations in public. When things hit the public, there was attacks on Mr Hatsumi and calls from people to just disregard everything you hear and keep training until Mr Hayes tells you differently. If we should not be conerned with what goes on between the two, why does one of them try to make such a big deal of using the others image and name on his site?

Oh, and Al- please read my first post in this thread. You assume I have a dislike of Mr Hayes. But my real concern is that I have several people I call friend who are the highest rank in the Bujinkan and still train every chance they get with Mr Hatsumi. I take issue with the insult that my friends who still train with Mr Hatsumi have less of an understanding based on the observations of a DVD black belt course blue belt.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)

:wink2: So you caught that...well it was kind of obvious.  Sorry, Mr. E., I was just having fun.  The purpose of the post was to show the bad blood between our two separate (gladly so) organizations.  

You say that To-Shin Do guys become trolls in the forums, but it's provocative and non-productive arguments like yours that cause said trolls.  I mean, seriously, I'm not sure about To-Shin Do practitioners in this internet community, but as far as what was presented to us and what 'I' too willingly, & happily accept, is that Anshu "Hermitage Head" or "Ordained One" is our organization's leader.  It's Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi's Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, and quite separately SKH Visionary Ninja Art of Self Protection, To-Shin Do.  

I don't need you to argue with me about some stupid plaque.  It is insignificant  "to the power of the Force"  ...I mean, to our training.  If it matters to Anshu, then that's his personal issues, but he heads an organization that offers his effective interpretation and translation of the kihon gata, as well as classical shoden and higher gata he was taught by YOUR organization head.  Now whether anyone wants to acknowledge Anshu as a student anymore, that's their prerogative, but the fact still remains:

SKH HAS the know-how, HAS the skills, HAS the experience, and HAS the right mindset to head an organization of civil-minded, (for the most part), individuals dedicated to self improvement, self protection, and the protection of others.  You can say what you want about him, but let's see you accomplish what he has, and inspire martial artists around the world.  Many Bujinkan members were brought into the experience by Anshu.  I have three videos that depict Anshu co-teaching and translating both Dr. Hatsumi and Manaka-sensei's teachings to, (most likely), the current high dan rankers.  

With experience like his, he is his own plaque, award, and qualification.  His art is authentically based, and the spirit pervades in it.  Argue it all you want, but you wouldn't know, because good friend, you're not one of us.  That is To-Shin Do practitioners (which is not necessarily a bad thing, so don't stary ye' wining).  :flame:


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## Mr. E (Aug 30, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> You say that To-Shin Do guys become trolls in the forums, but it's provocative and non-productive arguments like yours that cause said trolls.



If you reread what I posted, I took issue with what you were saying about people in the Bujinkan I consider friends. If you had talked only about Mr Hayes and not tried to build him up by tearing others down, there would be no problem. Think about that please before you post again.



ToShinDoKa said:


> I don't need you to argue with me about some stupid plaque.  It is insignificant  "to the power of the Force"  ...I mean, to our training.  If it matters to Anshu, then that's his personal issues, but he heads an organization that offers his effective interpretation and translation of the kihon gata, as well as classical shoden and higher gata he was taught by YOUR organization head.  Now whether anyone wants to acknowledge Anshu as a student anymore, that's their prerogative, but the fact still remains:
> 
> SKH HAS the know-how, HAS the skills, HAS the experience, and HAS the right mindset to head an organization of civil-minded, (for the most part), individuals dedicated to self improvement, self protection, and the protection of others.



Why is his having skills and such "fact?"

Anyone, with any level of martial arts experience is free to start their own style and start teaching. Many people have taken a few lessons and then started their own system. As much as we may disaprove of their actions, they do have the right to do what they want as long as there is no deception.

But your point for this thread was that Mr Hayes was qualified to start his own system in the manner of the Togakure ryu spirit. That is a different manner.

You mentioned, quite a lot, the idea of _shu ha ri._ Well, are you familiar with the term _menkyo kaiden?_

For those who do not know, it is a certificate that shows that the person has learned all he can from his teacher in the system.

The first part of _shu ha ri_ is the idea that you perfect the form. Then you go on to do the Ha and Ri sections.

Getting _menkyo kaiden_ from your teacher shows that in his opinion you have reached the point where you know the forms- i.e. "Shu". Mr Hatsumi has given out various _menkyo kaiden_ to his students.

If Mr Hayes _does not have_ MK, then it means that he and not Mr Hatsumi decided that he had the forms down perfect.

Mr Hayes has gone his own way. The soke of the Togakure ryu and the other nine traditions of the Bujinkan is going another way. I do not think ill of Mr Hayes for going in another direction, but if you want to argue that somehow he is qualified to portray what he does as being in the spirit of the Togakure ryu, then please show something like the MK from the soke of the Togakure ryu.

And in any case, please do not post things about how devoted students of Mr Hatsumi that still find new pieces of information, new corrections for previous mistakes, are somehow stupid or otherwise do not understand the true intent of what Mr Hatsumi wishes.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Ah yes, insults.
> 
> Did you read what I said. I said that Mr Hatsumi has said that you can't learn his art from video. That means that you can't learn from video accoriding to him. If you learn from a teacher and video, you are learning from video.
> 
> ...



You equate opinions with judging, I can judge no man...or woman.  Understand, when it comes to the Hi process it can involve leaving the way your teacher does things.  Sankaku Takeda was teacher to Morihei Ueshiba as well as Shodo Morita.  Both of them eventually formulated an art, SEPARATE though SIMILAR with SOME OF THE SAME TECHNIQUES of the original art, done in a way to protect the attacker (in the case of Ueshiba) from their own ignorance.

Sankaku Takeda killed seven men with a sword in self defense, and was raised with samurai heritage.  Should he not have been followed to a tee.  But, while perhaps not falling out with Takeda, he did ultimately become the creator and headmaster of Aikido.  Is he wrong.  Do I equate Anshu's skills with Ueshiba's?  That's not the issue...besides, you wouldn't like my opinion. 

The thing about it is, is that they went away from the teachings of their master directly, and translated the art for their purposes, Shodo Morita-sensei even having Karate and Judo added in!  Anshu cannot help it if he felt he got all he needed at the time to begin that path.  Perhaps Dr. Hatsumi didn't believe so, perhaps, but it is Anshu's choice, for it is HIS musha shugyo.  Not your's to judge, not the Bujinkan, not anyone but him.  He found something, we like it.  I'm sticking to it, and will continue to talk about the similarities between what I've seen and done in the ABD compared to To-Shin Do...so get over it...please.  

Dvd and instructor is considered just Dvd instruction...bull hockey!   Let's not play a game of semantics, I'm a law student...I'll win.  This is useless.  I appreciate your opinion, and since you deny everything even when multiple posters provided you with multiple sources, you show me you're being unreasonable.  I won't try to reason with the unreasonable...my time could be spent lurnin' fwom dim DVDs!


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## Mr. E (Aug 30, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> The thing about it is, is that they went away from the teachings of their master directly, and translated the art for their purposes, Shodo Morita-sensei even having Karate and Judo added in!



And they had _menkyo kaiden_ IIRC. And they did not try to really use their teacher's reputation or system for what they did. There is a lot of stuff by Morihei Ueshiba on his art. It is hard to find any mention of him talking about how it was a continuation of what he had learned from his teacher. He treated is as something totally seperate.



> Anshu cannot help it if he felt he got all he needed at the time to begin that path. Perhaps Dr. Hatsumi didn't believe so, perhaps, but it is Anshu's choice, for it is HIS musha shugyo.



That is not the issue. I am one who follows his own path in my own way. When I train in one art, I am that arts student as best I can. When I go to another school, I train in that as well I can. But on my own, what I do is ultimately my own.

No, the issue is the idea that by leaving his teacher before he received some sort of proof that he had learned all he could about Togakure ryu, etc, and then use this leaving as some sort of proof that he knew better than those still studying. Mr Hatsumi is the soke of Togakure ryu ninjutsu. If anyone knows what is the spirit and direction and student using that name should follow, it would be him. So if you use the Togakure ryu spirit as part of your reasoning, then clearly Mr Hatsumi and his opinions of Mr Hayes skill also becomes part of the discussion.

Again, Morihei Ueshiba got _menkyo kaiden_ from his teacher and then went off and totally broke off to do something else. 

Mr Hayes did not receive the same amount of skill from his teacher and still seems to use the name and such in many ways.

If you treat Toshindo as something totally seperate from Bujinkan and do not try to compare Bujinkan unfavorably with what you do, then there will be no problem. But the very title of this thread shows that you think that it is not some bold new direction and that Mr Hayes knows more about what Mr Hatsumi wants than those with far more knowledge and experience than him in the Bujinkan. Do you not see just how egotistically insulting that is?


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## Michael Stinson (Aug 30, 2007)

Probably regret sticking my head in but....

It was pointed out that Mr. Hayes never publically speaks ill of those that speak ill of him. I would highly recommend that other To-Shin Do practitioners look to this example and learn from it...not merely use it as an example for an endless argument that has little point.

I actually agree with Mr. Es point concerning the method of insulting/degrading something to bring something else to light. We have no need to tear anyone down or disrespect anothers path to speak proudly of our own. What we do speaks for itself and shines bright enough on its own. For those that are on a different path more power to them and best wishes. The need to be 'right' in these discussions causes more difficulty for ALL of us and makes us ALL look bad.

Bah...its 3:30am...thus endeth the sermon 

Michael Stinson
Phoenix Quest Center


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 30, 2007)

Michael Stinson said:


> Probably regret sticking my head in but....
> 
> It was pointed out that Mr. Hayes never publically speaks ill of those that speak ill of him. I would highly recommend that other To-Shin Do practitioners look to this example and learn from it...not merely use it as an example for an endless argument that has little point.
> 
> ...


 
Michael this is a very good post and I am sure that we all appreciate your comments above. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  I hope that you will contribute more here in the future. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




Since the origional OP wanted to talk about the spirit that infuses To Shin Do training let us continue on from there as the topic.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)

I will endeavor to return back to the topic...it's just hard when you're being undercut in your intention to speak positively about your art.  I didn't feel my initial post undercut anyone, but if it did, it wasn't intentional.  I don't feel the magic in this topic that I originally did.  I'm done with it.  :disgust:


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## alfyed11 (Aug 30, 2007)

Perfect. Once again, "Mr E" annoys someone into submission when they talk about an art that he isn't involved in.

Mr E, why are you on the Bujinkan and To-Shin Do threads again? You're protecting the integrity of some "friends" that you have training in these arts?

It really does look like you dislike SKH -- and I don't have a vested interest either way. I know you disagree, but it certainly does look that way!

- Your pal, Al


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## SKB (Aug 30, 2007)

Mr. Stinson,

You are right. I know it does no good to "play" with some folks and the argument is silly........ I just don't like to watch someone try and "run over" another guy for no reason! Sooner or later I'll get tired of responding to these folks!!!!!!! Or maybe they will get tired of bringing up the same old stuff over and over and over again??????? Bet I get tired first!!!!


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## bydand (Aug 30, 2007)

SKB said:


> Mr. Stinson,
> 
> You are right. I know it does no good to "play" with some folks and the argument is silly........ I just don't like to watch someone try and "run over" another guy for no reason! Sooner or later I'll get tired of responding to these folks!!!!!!! Or maybe they will get tired of bringing up the same old stuff over and over and over again??????? *Bet I get tired first!*!!!



I'm not taking the bet I put in bold letters.  
Some people seem to have an affinity for posting the same darn thing 425 different ways in half a million posts.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)

You know, even in the face of this opposition, (whatever the stance), to allow my original purpose to be dissuaded would be an act _against _what I study for.  My 

BUDO NO ARIKATA

Today I went to the archives of Anshu's Densho, and pondered over what was written when the internet rumors of his expulsion surfaced.  Now, I personally could care less at this time whether they're true or not, that's not my point, my point lies at the end of his message.

_"__Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the tatsujin "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Find the teachers that inspire you to greatness, and seek out training partners that bring out your best. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. Nin-po Ik-kan is the way you must live -   embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that   day." -Stephen K. Hayes

_I'm not sure about the rest of my To-Shin Do Buyu, but I see unprecedented humility and martial wisdom in these words.  This wouldn't have been the first time I've read them, but it is _most certainly _the first time I've _truly _understood them.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)

You know, even in the face of this opposition, (whatever the stance), to allow my original purpose to be dissuaded would be an act _against _what I study for.  My 

BUDO NO ARIKATA
Or my "Purpose for Martial Arts Training"...which is:

_Hoko Tomeru!  _Which are the two kanji that comprise the Japanese word _Bu _or _Martial Arts_.  These two words mean _to Prevent Conflict._

Today I went to the archives of Anshu's Densho, and pondered over what was written when the internet rumors of his expulsion surfaced.  Now, I personally could care less at this time whether they're true or not, that's not my point, my point lies at the end of his message.

_"__Meanwhile, use this time of confusion to re-dedicate your practice to the highest of ideals. You know why you are training. You know what your goals are. You know what your greatest challenges are. Train diligently and sincerely so that by the end of each day, you are a little closer to being the tatsujin "person of actualized perfection" that you strive to become. Find the teachers that inspire you to greatness, and seek out training partners that bring out your best. Do not allow negative people to distract you. Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill. But you persevere nonetheless. Nin-po Ik-kan is the way you must live -   embodying "consistent warrior training" no matter what obstacles come along that   day." -Stephen K. Hayes

_I'm not sure about the rest of my To-Shin Do Buyu, but I see unprecedented humility and martial wisdom in these words.  This wouldn't have been the first time I've read them, but it is _most certainly _the first time I've _truly _understood them.  

It inspires me how, even in the face of the _possibility _of being rejected by one's own teacher, and even in the face of those (whoever they were) who would ridicule him for taking steps to promote a ninja tradition he loved and believed in, he stayed ever mature and vigilant.  He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and _endured _such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement.  Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 30, 2007)




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## Kreth (Aug 31, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> _Jealous ones may plot to demean your hard-earned success. Fearful ones may scheme to avoid your intimidating skill._


Perhaps if you don't want people commenting negatively about your teacher, then it would be best not to post something where he hints that anyone offering a counterpoint to his official story is "jealous" or "fearful." 
In other words, don't complain about a flamewar while you stand by with a gas can.


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## bydand (Aug 31, 2007)

Have to agree with Kreth on this one.  Sure I train To-Shin-Do, but am getting tired of finding nothing those who are new to the art online, and still at that Honeymoon stage in training.  I like the art, I like the skill sets taught, I get tired of the whole "party line" that is tossed around online.  Train, train in what you like, train with whom you like and respect; but I don't try to push who I train under on those who choose not to train with them, I just wish most others in the same art could do the same.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 31, 2007)

bydand said:


> Have to agree with Kreth on this one. Sure I train To-Shin-Do, but am getting tired of finding nothing those who are new to the art online, and still at that Honeymoon stage in training. I like the art, I like the skill sets taught, I get tired of the whole "party line" that is tossed around online. Train, train in what you like, train with whom you like and respect; but I don't try to push who I train under on those who choose not to train with them, I just wish most others in the same art could do the same.


 

Byband, I'm going to ask you an honest and sincere question and use very small words:

Can You Not Read?

This is a Stephen K. Hayes thread, about...guess who...Stephen K. Hayes.  It's about HIS art and HIS practicing students.  That was a Stephen K. Hayes quote, and a true one.  It is good advice.  He did not demean any group or organization.  

There are jealous people in the world, and they'll say what they like.  I'm not breaking any rules quoting my teacher, and could care less, HONESTLY, what you think of new To-Shin Do practitioners, sir.  Perhaps your spirit isn't in this art, don't harp on me because mine is.  Agree with Kreth, but Anshu didn't insult any organization or person.  

I must say, I don't give a flying Fudo Ken what you think of me because I'm actually proud of what I study.  If you don't like me talking nicely about Anshu, don't look at this topic, and join a different thread, sir.  :angel:


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## bydand (Aug 31, 2007)

You know what, this is the exact response I thought you would have.

I know what the thread is about, I know what section it is in.  I have been practicing the art for a LONG time now and think the enthusiasm of new students is a good thing.  Getting defensive whenever somebody says anything that may not be glowing about Hayes is ridicules, he is a man just like the rest of us.  He has some very, very good skills and I am happy to learn them from him or others under him.  Am I knocking new To-Shin-Do students?  NO, I'm making an observation that for the most part is upheld by responses like the one above.  Do I think all new students are like this?  NO, I happen to train at a dojo where everybody is only a couple of years, or months into the art, and I love it.  The spirit is fantastic, and the enthusiasm is great.  I feel this is what will be needed to keep the art going and growing.

Do  not "yell" at me online for expressing an opinion.  I never said I didn't like somebody talking nicely about Hayes, I implied it was common for new students to get defensive over statement they think is negative about Hayes and start flaming others.  See above post for example.


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## bydand (Aug 31, 2007)

Must say though, 20 posts into your time here on MT and the true nature shines through.:waah:


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 31, 2007)

bydand said:


> Must say though, 20 posts into your time here on MT and the true nature shines through.


 
Funny, sir...truly a To Shin Do Role Model.

I didn't yell, for there were not exclamation points.  Big letters draw attention...pay attention:

I never claimed Anshu was a god, but he is a martial arts role model.  I just don't understand what your saying.  To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people.  Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.  

What I will do, is continue to post, promoting my art, teachers, and experiences in said are, and with said teachers.  HOPEFULLY, that won't be TOO _Honeymoon _(whatever that means) for you, SIR. 

:waah:?  ... ... ...:lol:

-Scott
Proud To-Shin Do


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## theletch1 (Aug 31, 2007)

"Netiquette" dictates that using all caps is the same as raising your voice in a face to face conversation.  Same with using a much larger font.  Yes, it does draw attention but it comes across as yelling.  Now, since my post doesn't have anything to do with the reason for the thread I'll digress but wanted to inteject the bit about "netiquette" to try to avoid further confrontation due to such a simple matter as font size.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 31, 2007)

theletch1 said:


> "Netiquette" dictates that using all caps is the same as raising your voice in a face to face conversation. Same with using a much larger font. Yes, it does draw attention but it comes across as yelling. Now, since my post doesn't have anything to do with the reason for the thread I'll digress but wanted to inteject the bit about "netiquette" to try to avoid further confrontation due to such a simple matter as font size.


 

Wow...netiquette?  Indeed?  Well, I learn something new every day.  

Well yes, back to my EVERSO PREDICTABLE (and yes I'm yelling...no one specific, though) responses.

_Anshu is lord and master of all that's in existence...:lol:_
_Bow before him or face the wrath of his unquestionable authenticity!...:lol:_

But seriously, I think Anshu's stance, despite recent events, has been notable.  Lesser ones of lesser patience, like myself, would do well to follow such an example.

*You may not question me, for my logic is undeniable!  :lol:*

*-*Scott
proud (and apparently over zealous) To Shin Do Student


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## bydand (Aug 31, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> Funny, sir...truly a To Shin Do Role Model.


I would hope not.  Either you OR me.



> I didn't yell, for there were not exclamation points.  Big letters draw attention...pay attention:



Sorry, I was assuming you were following simple, common, forum/message board sentence  structure that has been around for longer than I have been posting on the internet.  
pay attention now: You know the ones; all caps = yelling, larger typeface = yelling, bold typeface (in context) = yelling.



> I never claimed Anshu was a god, but he is a martial arts role model.



I never said you did call him a god. I agree he is a role model (whom I would wonder how he would respond to my posts... May have to e-mail them to him so he could let me know...Naw he is too busy, I'll just run it by him next time I'm at a seminar with him. Either that or I'll stop by one of the Hombu Shihans tomorrow.)



> I just don't understand what your saying.  To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people.  Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.



Wow, this isn't a response?
Plus I am not riding the fence, i have stated many times here on MT my stand on the art I practice and the people I train with.  As well as those who act like children and give the art I love a bad reputation on forums I participate on.



> What I will do, is continue to post, promoting my art, teachers, and experiences in said are, and with said teachers.  HOPEFULLY, that won't be TOO _Honeymoon _(whatever that means) for you, SIR.
> 
> :waah:?  ... ... ...:lol:
> 
> ...



Great!  Good experiences and posts are what we need, not foolishness.   I hope you do continue training, I hope you get friends and family members excited about the art.   




PS. - We are looking at the definitions I have highlighted.  Used in this context it refers to the period where an individual cannot or will not see flaws in anything new to them.  Yes there are flaws in our art, just as there are flaws in any art out there.  Following taken from "*Dictionary.com*"

*hon·ey·moon: *






/&#712;h&#652;n
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




i&#716;mun/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[*huhn*-ee-moon] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation noun  1.a vacation or trip taken by a newly married couple.   2.the month or so following a marriage.   *3.**any period of blissful harmony: Their entire 60 years of marriage was one long honeymoon. * *4.**any new relationship characterized by an initial period of harmony and goodwill: The honeymoon between Congress and the new president was over. *   verb (used without object)  5.to spend one's honeymoon (usually fol. by _in_ or _at_).


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 31, 2007)

I resent  you referring to me insulting To-Shin Do.  The fact that the art can admit its shortcomings and not be ruled solely by unchangeable tradition is _why _I admire it so.  

I'm sorry if I'm cynical when I speak, but I find it makes boring conversations interesting...perhaps not in this instance.

All together, I don't believe I was wrong for what I've said, but if it's enough to stop your degradation of my profile, than whatever, I apologies.  Bullying a person into retracting their opinion's really admirable.


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## bydand (Sep 1, 2007)

Oh lord, another one for the ignore list.  Some peoples kids just don't get it.  I'm out of the thread, I tire of foolishness and didn't even intend to post in here because I knew it would turn into this mess. 

Post what you will, it is like talking to a kid who just doesn't get it.  And ToShinDoKa, quit PM'ing me, I could care less about your thoughts.


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## MJS (Sep 1, 2007)

*2nd Warning*

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Mike Slosek
-MT Asst. Admin-*


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## Mr. E (Sep 1, 2007)

bydand said:


> Oh lord, another one for the ignore list.



Do you really want to cede control of what people here think of Toshindo to people like Toshindoka?

When I stated certain truths, I was attacked by several Toshindo members as hating Mr Hayes and Toshindo. But if that was the case, then I would not be saying what I am going to say.

Bydand, do you really think that Toshindoka is going to stop this type of behavior just because you don't deal with him? I think not. And I think it is clear that you find his behavior to be bad and not a good example of the Toshindo you want people to see. Several other people have stated the same thing.

But have you realized that so far you are the only person from within Toshindo that has specifically stood up to him? Micheal Stinson wrote a generic note of disaproval, but it was not very specific and with only 21 posts since 2004 I think he suffers from having too much of a real life to counter much of what goes on here.

No one else from within Toshindo is saying that what he writes is not cool with them. I can point to some who praise him, some of the same take the time to attack others, but no other Toshindo member other than you has taken the time to state that his  actions are not what you want Toshindo to  become.

When someone identified as being a member of a group says something and all the members of the group say nothing, it is natural to assume that they accept, or at least do not oppose, their group being associated with that statement.

And if it were not for you and Mr Stinson, then all the other members of martialtalk would assume that Toshindo practicioners have no problem with attacking other arts, insulting other people and promoting a "us vs them" attitude.

Take a look again at some of the things he wrote,



> Perhaps your spirit isn't in this art, don't harp on me because mine is.





> To me, it seems like you're riding the fence, and just don't understand such people. Riding the fence on your opinion that is, and so it's hard to respond to, sir...so I won't.



Clearly one gets the impression that you are either part of what Toshindoka says, or you are the enemy. And so far, you are the only one we can count on to say that it is not loyalty to a person, but to the truth that controls what you do. If you stop paying attention to what he writes, and he posts more of what he has been posting, then what do you think people will think when not a single Toshindo member seems to have a problem with it?

What kind of groups do that sort of thing? Do you want people to think of Toshindo in the same light as those sort of groups? More importantly, do you want those that think in that manner to have the greatest voice in what you do in your art?

Please think carefully before you follow through with your statement. You are a very valuable, clever and honorable member of martialtalk and Toshindo. You do your art proud. It would be a shame if you stood aside as those who are none of those things continue to spew the same things as they have.


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## Johan D'hondt (Sep 1, 2007)

humm,

speaking is silver, silence is gold.....

(belgian proverb)

does that talk to somebody....

johan D'hondt
long distance student
Belgium
(16 years in martial arts)


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 1, 2007)

:asian:

You win, I give up.

:lol:


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## SKB (Sep 2, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> :asian:
> 
> You win, I give up.
> 
> :lol:


 

Don't give up, just realize what they are doing and move on! Folks write what they want on here and some folks seem to just gang up on them. Let it go and wait for a good subject to come up! 

Insulting them does not work neither does making a good point. Just let them type away...............


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## Highland Ninja (Sep 3, 2007)

I've read this thread without dipping my toe in the water, but this comment by ToShinDoKa just forced me to comment. ToShinDoKa wrote:



> He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and _endured _such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement. Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.


I'm sorry, but it is anything _but _the "ninja spirit" that makes Hayes act polite and focused in the matter. I've known Steve for a _very _long time, and as long as I have known him, he has always been a _ceaseless self-promoter_. And no, I don't mean that in an entirely good way either. 

I recall when he was writing articles for Ninja Magazine and interviewing himself under a pseudonym (ie he "interviewed" himself). :shrug:

I used to talk to Steve over the phone back in the 80's, and he once lied to me about why Soke could not attend a particular Ninja Festival. He made a huge lie as an excuse, and then I found out the real reason...he was being cheap. Didn't want to spend the money Hatsumi demanded, and he was demanding it as a test for Steve because Steve had entered his "greedy mode" by that time. 

I was friends with the guy who ran Shadows of Iga for him (Ron Murray) and used to spend time at the "Shadows of Iga house" that Steve bought to run the organization. So I got the inside scoop on many of his "tempter tantrums" when people upset him by doing training that Steve was not himself able to do. I even witnessed a few myself. And of course, we got the "dirt" on many things he did through people like Roger Stebelton, Dan Johnson, and Larry Turner, all of whom were close to Steve and knew the _real _Steve who only ever showed the world his "Stephen K. Hayes" personna. I myself have only personally interacted with Steve outside of his "Shidoshi mode" (as we used to call it) about 2-3 times over the years. 

When Hatsumi started demonstrating the _kukinage _(energy throw, without touching a person), and a teacher who trained with the Highland, Indiana Shadows of Iga group was demonstrating a similar skill, _Steve went ballistic because he did not have that skill._ Suddenly in his next book, *Ninja Realms of Power*, we find Steve faking the _kukinage _throw.   :bs1:

The same thing happened when the Highland group started learning some special 6-member military patrol techniques from certain special forces instructors (Jeff Prather, etc). Eventually this training became part of the Windwarrior Seminars conducted by Roger Stebelton and other instructors. When they would not teach it to Steve (he wanted them to teach it to him), _he had a conniption fit_. Lots of shouting and pounding of fists on desks. Steve did _not _like the idea of anyone being able to do anything _he _could not do. It was precisely this jealous and fanatical pursuit of power on Steve's part that caused many of his early students such as Roger Stebelton to have a falling out with him. Anything that he perceived as a threat to his egotistical belief that he was "the" great source of ninjutsu training in America was belittled, ridiculed, or pushed away. 

This ultimately culminated in Steve distancing himself from Soke and going in his own direction once others started training in Japan and passing Steve up in rank. Many of us saw that coming, because we knew Steve's ego would not allow it. No need for a crystal ball to forsee that event!

So it is not Steve being "ninja like" and he is certainly not the suffering martyr you paint him as. So please spare us the :sadsong: about how poor Steve is being unfairly treated. The criticisms some of us have for him stem directly from our direct interaction with him over the years and Steve's own actions. There's no need to cover his recent outrages against Soke, it's been talked to death. 

No, it's not some "ninja spirit". _It is merely Steve being careful not to blow his carfully crafted public image, which he has invested his entire life and career into_. It's not that he doesn't want to rip into people for it, it's that _he cannot afford to allow himself to do so _because of the bottom line...it would hurt him _financially_. It's _always _been about money to Steve. At least, ever since he found himself growing rich in the limelight anyway. 

Now lest any Toshindo students go ballistic, I will remind them that I am not saying that Steve has no skills. He does have a good deal of skill. He's not exactly on the Top Ten List of people I'd like to get into a life-and -death combat with. And I'm not saying that it's wrong to train with Steve or that Toshindo has no value. 

What I am saying is that all the negativity Steve is having to "endure" comes from his own egotistical, greedy, and disrespectful actions. I'm just telling it like it is. Steve has issues, and he's not made any progress with them that I can see in over a quarter century now. Money is the ultimate thing in Steve's life, and he will corrupt, sacrifice, or warp his training in order to keep the money coming in. 

You gotta hand it to him though. He's the ultimate self-promoter. That's where most of his training in the last 25 years has been. And Steve was always fond of surrounding himself with sycophants who worship the ground he walks on (or in some cases those who pretend to). I see that has not changed over the years either. 

Like I said, perhaps the truth hurts, but truth is truth. It won't change how some people think of Steve, because usually people are not interested in hearing the truth, but rather only that which they want to hear. So be it. I no longer associate with Steve, so what he does no longer matters to me. I do find it interesting though, watching his ongoing antics.

[Edit: Grammar/spelling]


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 3, 2007)

Wise words, SKB...I'll take your advice.


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 3, 2007)

Oh, and that was a very nice story, Highland Ninja, and I appreciate you sharing it with us.  

To-Shin!

-Scott T. Ealey
Proud To-Shin Do Practitioner


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## KevinCasey (Sep 3, 2007)

I feel compelled to make my debut on this forum in order to ease any concern that might be generated by someone reading Highland-Ninja's vision of Stephen Hayes. 

I've been involved in the organization for 9 years, I'm reasonably in the "inner circle", and I've never witnessed anything like what Highland-Ninja describes.  To the contrary, I've traveled all over the world and worked in big business, played in adventure travel, and met people of every class, race, and history, and I've never met someone who impresses me more than Stephen Hayes.  I introduce him to other friends of mine who are also highly experienced, talented, intelligent, educated people, and they concur.

Even if I were deluded myself somehow, the caliber of people who choose to associate with him is an impressive statement itself.  These are people who could do anything in the world - some of them operate at legendary levels in their respective fields of medicine, finance, military, and law enforcement - and they choose to continue in To-Shin Do for years and years.  You can't trick people like that.

So, if you are starting the path or researching the path, take heart.  You are among heroes and visionaries, and they would be thrilled to help you become a visionary hero yourself.  I am one of them.

--Kevin Casey


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 3, 2007)

RIGHT ON!:bow:


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## Highland Ninja (Sep 3, 2007)

Kevin Casey wrote:



> You can't trick people like that.


Actually, it happens all the time. Human nature. People believe what they want to believe. Even a simple stage magician can fool the people you're talking about. It's all about perception. I'm speaking from experience as well. Even with a 140 IQ, I got fooled by a bad teacher once (along with a bunch of other highly intelligent people). Once was enough. 

Furthermore, let's go back to the earlier claim that ToShinDoKa made:



> He, while some would easily focus on defending themselves, truly demonstrated the NIN in ninja and _endured _such persecution, focusing instead on keeping his students or practitioners in general, focused on self improvement. Truly, IMHO, the ninja spirit.



If Steve _truly _thought there was no need to defend himself, he would not be going to such great lengths to constantly post "explanations" on his website, in an effort to fool people into believing that he is still in Soke's good graces when in fact he is not.  Funny how everyone in Japan sees it one way (including everyone close to Soke), and yet Steve insists it's another. 

Steve's believability is also blown because he's been caught lying about so many issues when it comes to training in ninjutsu. 

Steve is doing anything _but _"enduring" the "persecution" as you call it. No, this is a _classic case_ of *Hayesian Damage Control*. Go into "Shidoshi mode", use flowery language to obscure the facts, and warp the truth. I've seen it time and time again over the years. 

Been there, done that, considering writing the definitive book on the matter.


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 4, 2007)

The last time Anshu addressed that on his site was over a year ago.  Such things apparently are not the focal point in his journey, now.  He has an organization to run, and some people, like me, who sees the great benefit in what he's doing.    If my posting on why I believe my teacher is a great teacher and embodies what he'd set out to do, has caused you to feel you must harp on him, then I'll keep my truths to myself in the future.  I did not set out, though I may have, to tarnish the reputation of our art and Anshu, by arguing a thought that is merely my viewpoint.  

Despite whatever may be the truth in these matters, Anshu has encouraged his students and friends to do some great things, and pursue their personal goals in the martial arts and life...  My opinions spawn from that result.  The belief that his students can be heroes in a world so in need of them...like Michael Stinson!  Real herous, Highland Ninja.  This is the kind of organization Anshu Stephen Kin-ryu Jien Hayes runs.  And I think it's pretty cool.


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## Johan D'hondt (Sep 4, 2007)

humm,..... (no, I won't repeat my belgian proverb...lol)


lots of news....
I like the answer of  Kevin Casey, but indeed, you only have been involved since 9 years (  )...
I can imagine that An-Shu Stephen Hayes (this is how we call mr Hayes ) was a bit different in the '80's, it was about 30 years ago...
I may be possible that in the '80's, he may have lost his calm, became angry with somebody and slammed his fist on the table. that can happen !
Did you never get angry in your life, mr highland Ninja?
Maybe, you are so lucky to live in a town where everybody is at your service.
Where everybody loves and admires you, where nobody even thinks about harming you and your loved ones. Where the beating rain stops when you step out of your car, to avoid you from getting in a bad mood.
When somebody insults you, you just look at him, and he apologises for being rude to you.....
of course, this would be great !!!
unfortunately, our world does not opperate that way and I can easely imaging that those things may have affected An-Shu Hayes in the '80's.

For my part of the history, I got to met An-Shu for the first time around 1991, where he gave me the impression of somebody who was totally in control of his life, working hard, exploring all facets (fysical and mental) of the ancient ninja art, and what impressed me most, he was ready to share his knowledge with me !

I participated in several Mikkyo meditation weekends offered by An-Shu Hayes during the '90's in Germany. There he has shown us how to take charge of our innermost potential to free us from anger, worries and regrets that come along our lives.
NOW, years later, I secretly hope that An-Shu Hayes has made *some* progress with his inner work...
For what I have seen so far, he has...

Johan D'hondt
Long distance Student
Belgium

Note: please remark the humour notes, please do not take all of it in the first degree, in no way I would want somebody be feel attacked.
especially not mr highland ninja, I just wanted make clear that people can and do change...with time.


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## shesulsa (Sep 4, 2007)

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

_*Admin. Note:

Please refer to the Forum Charter for this section and refrain from any further fraud-busting, art-bashing discussions.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator
*_


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## SKB (Sep 4, 2007)

OK so who keeps dinging me on the reputation thing for this thread???? If you got something to say......... say it instead of telling me what I should be doing! Some folks have their own ideas of what is good behavior on this thing and what is not. Just because folks do not agree with you does not mean they are behaving badly!!!!! 

Guess what folks....... some of us LIKE TO TRAIN IN TO SHIN DO AND WE LIKE MR. HAYES!!!! SORRY IF YOU DO NOT BUT MYSELF AND OTHERS DO! And yes that was me yelling!!! So if you guys want to gang up on everyone who is positive about either the art or Mr. Hayes feel free BUT stop crying about the rest of us not coming around to your way of thinking and having a diffrent thought on the subject then you. 

Now please feel free to have at me....... but could you at least do it out in the open for all to enjoy?????


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## Sukerkin (Sep 4, 2007)

*SKB*, it is in the nature of the moderation of MT that personal attacks, aggressive posting and malicious 'fraud-busting' is explicitly against the 'contract' all of us entered into when we signed up.

That's in part what makes MT such a pleasant place to be.

It might also be why those in this 'dispute' choose to use the rep system to register their disagreement rather than venting forth in the thread.  That is one of the potential roles of the rep system i.e. to act as a pressure valve.  

I personally do not think it is a good use of the system, feeling that it is better purposed to encourage rather than punish.  If you wish to, it is legitimate to report the issue to the moderating staff if you believe that you are being unfairly treated.  I can assure you that they will deal with the matter impartially.


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 4, 2007)

Sukerkin said:


> *SKB*, it is in the nature of the moderation of MT that personal attacks, aggressive posting and malicious 'fraud-busting' is explicitly against the 'contract' all of us entered into when we signed up.
> 
> That's in part what makes MT such a pleasant place to be.
> 
> ...



I understand that Sukerkin, but when people unjustly leave you bad reps for making an argument, similar to how this post will probably earn me one, it makes you look bad.


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## shesulsa (Sep 4, 2007)

ToShinDoKa said:


> I understand that Sukerkin, but when people unjustly leave you bad reps for making an argument, similar to how this post will probably earn me one, it makes you look bad.


Admin Note:

There are many threads on MT regarding the reputation system, what it means to different people, and it is still anonymous on purpose.  The value YOU assign to the "reputation" you get here all depends upon how YOU choose to look at it.

If you suspect abuse of the rep system, feel free to contact me or another Admin.  Otherwise, let's keep to the topic of the thread please.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Administrator


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## ToShinDoKa (Sep 4, 2007)

I appreciate the response.  The value it holds to me is how others may view it when I might be trying to make a response, that's the only reason I'm concerned about it.  Thanks for giving me an option if I feel there's a possibility of rep abuse.  

-ToShinDoKa


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## SKB (Sep 4, 2007)

shesulsa & Sukerkin,

I understand what you guys are saying! Just wish folks could have a discussion on here without trashing the art or Mr. Hayes. Once they do that people get annoyed and it turns into a pissing contest. If what started this thread was wrong then discuss it. Instead they jump all over people and tell me and others we don't act right since we do not agree with them. The rep thing seems as a way for folks to just take a cheap shot and get away with it. 

I gave up on this forum once , might be time to do it!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 4, 2007)

SKB said:


> shesulsa & Sukerkin,
> 
> I understand what you guys are saying! Just wish folks could have a discussion on here without trashing the art or Mr. Hayes. Once they do that people get annoyed and it turns into a p***ing contest. If what started this thread was wrong then discuss it. Instead they jump all over people and tell me and others we don't act right since we do not agree with them. The rep thing seems as a way for folks to just take a cheap shot and get away with it.
> 
> I gave up on this forum once , might be time to do it!


 
For myself I do not care to talk bad about anyone even though I am not perfect on this. (yet I try)  I and most MartialTalk member's are interested in having To Shin Do practitioner's come on here and commenting on their art and their art's leader and we try very hard to maintain a friendly welcoming atmosphere.  Certainly another member may take a shot but that happen's in other areas too and not just in the To Shin Do area.  If you show respect and give respect then certainly respect will generally come back your way.  Personally I hope that more To Shin Do practitioner's post here in the future.


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## Highland Ninja (Sep 5, 2007)

Johan D'hondt wrote:



> I can imagine that An-Shu Stephen Hayes (this is how we call mr Hayes ) was a bit different in the '80's, it was about 30 years ago...



My point was that he is _not _any different. His behavior on many levels is still the same as it ever was. 



> I may be possible that in the '80's, he may have lost his calm, became angry with somebody and slammed his fist on the table. that can happen !



It's not merely _possible_, we actually _witnessed _it! But you're saying that as if to imply that such a thing couldn't happen today. 



> Did you never get angry in your life, mr highland Ninja?



Certainly. But I never threw a temper tantrum because I couldn't do something someone else could do. I never lied or corrupted my training to make a quick buck. I never lied to/about my teacher to make myself look good or to save some money. I'm afraid I cannot say the same thing for Steve. And believe me, it saddens me to have to say that. 



> For my part of the history, I got to met An-Shu for the first time around 1991, where he gave me the impression of somebody who was totally in control of his life, working hard, exploring all facets (fysical and mental) of the ancient ninja art, and what impressed me most, he was ready to share his knowledge with me !



And that is exactly how he came off when I first met him back in the very early 80's. _That's my point_. He's _always_ acted this way in public. But the _real _Steve is quite different than the "Shidoshi mode" he presents to the public, ie the "Stephen K. Hayes" personna. Or perhaps now it's more accurate to call it his "An-shu" personna. With Steve, it was always about marketing his image to make money, and it's still that way today. The _rare few_ times that I talked to Steve and caught him outside his "Shidoshi mode" (he was only a shidoshi back then), it was like he was a totally different person. I truly wish he could be that way all the time. 



> NOW, years later, I secretly hope that An-Shu Hayes has made *some* progress with his inner work...For what I have seen so far, he has...



I wish he had, as well. But based on his behavior, I can see that he hasn't. Unfortunately.


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## shesulsa (Sep 5, 2007)

_*admin Note: Thread Locked Pending Review.

G Ketchmark / Shesulsa
Mt Assist. Administrator
*_


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