# What did the "Sport" do to Taekwondo?



## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2010)

For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.

When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)

But as soon as the USAT took over, we swung the pendulum as far to the left as possible, where there is NO respect for rank or the art. Only respect given is to "winners". And the coaches of these winners. Who in some cases (within USAT) hold NO OFFICAL RANK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  _(NOTE TO ALL: Official Rank within the WTF/USAT/Olympic community is a Kukkiwon cert... this isnt a debate about what official rank is, within this WTF sanctioned SPORT ... IT IS KukKiWon)_

I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2010)

I agree that the respect aspect seems to have disappeared, but I do not believe this was a "sport" issue.  As you pointed out, when USTU ran things, respect to one's seniors and to others was definetly present.  This leads me to believe that it is the mentalilty of the organizational higher ups, in my opinoin, that has constituted the downfall of respect.


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 18, 2010)

Respect at sport TKD events what the heck is that? I mean look on this board some of these people, they do not care some here have over forty years in the art because if you are not kissing the right buttocks than you are wrong. I guess I am too the point where I just want to start beating the living crap out of some of these people and then they can give me my respect. Seriously this is how I feel, I have never been one to blow my own horn but lately my students are asking why I am not getting due respect from some of these younger people.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 18, 2010)

Let me ask this...do you see more of the lack of respect at the local level of tournaments, at the national level of tournaments or both?  On my end I see, for the most part that on a local level people still hold the decorum of respect, however on a national level I see a lot less.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 18, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.
> 
> When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)
> 
> ...


It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a *sport*. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a *sport*, so winning is the priority. 

Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art.  So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity? If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a *sport*.

Daniel


----------



## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Let me ask this...do you see more of the lack of respect at the local level of tournaments, at the national level of tournaments or both? On my end I see, for the most part that on a local level people still hold the decorum of respect, however on a national level I see a lot less.


 

ABSOLUTELY,

Local events usually have more respect than national, however alot of that would be based off of a few factors.  One usually at local events, most schools and instructors know each other, or of eachother and at national events not so much.  

Also at local events, there is usually a comradery of "hey I'll support your tournament so you can return the favor when I have mine" type atmoshere.  So business depends on a co-operation of masters and school owners.

So I find myself forced to defend a _"possible"_ cause for larger events not having as much respect toward each other... which I still blame on the ATMOSPHERE of the Current ORG.

example:  even at a regional event such as qualifiers, most instructors/coaches are connected to eachother some how.  someone knows someone who knows someone.  So there are few "strangers" at a regional event... but yet there respect is still lacking quite a bit.  Coaches act like asses, students show no respect toward anyone to include spectators.... and sometimes.... chairs get thrown. (and tables).

Is it because people feel more is at stake at these events so they act this way?  or is it the atmosphere at these events?


----------



## d1jinx (Nov 18, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a *sport*. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a *sport*, so winning is the priority.
> 
> Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art. So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity? If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a *sport*.
> 
> Daniel


 
kindof my point... we all started in the ART.  and still practice the ART.... yet...


----------



## Touch Of Death (Nov 18, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.
> 
> When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)
> 
> ...


Sport TKD is both a blessing and a curse.


----------



## Gorilla (Nov 18, 2010)

We still follow the rules of respect.  My kids if they are approached by or see a Master that they know or even a fellow Black Belt they stop what they are doing and shake hands as a show of respect.  If you follow the rules of common courtesy which is to respect your elders/others you will be fine in TKD.  The fact that it is a sport should not matter. In fact if it is a parent of a fellow athlete they stop and show respect.  If they didn't they would hear it from me.

I feel that respect is an individual responsibility! 


The lack of respect shown by leaders of an organization is a reflection on that organization!


----------



## ATC (Nov 18, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> We still follow the rules of respect.  My kids if they are approached by or see a Master that they know or even a fellow Black Belt they stop what they are doing and shake hands as a show of respect.  If you follow the rules of common courtesy which is to respect your elders/others you will be fine in TKD.  The fact that it is a sport should not matter. In fact if it is a parent of a fellow athlete they stop and show respect.  If they didn't they would hear it from me.
> 
> I feel that respect is an individual responsibility!
> 
> ...


Ditto what Gorilla said. Too many look at Martial Arts as just punching, kicking and take downs. It is so much more than that. This is why formalities are needed in the dojang. Bowing, yes sir and no sir, and having an order of respect via the ranking system.


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 19, 2010)

ATC said:


> Ditto what Gorilla said. Too many look at Martial Arts as just punching, kicking and take downs. It is so much more than that. This is why formalities are needed in the dojang. Bowing, yes sir and no sir, and having an order of respect via the ranking system.


 
Not that I disagree, but what exactly is the "much more" that formality brings to training? 
Basing respect on rank is not always smart either, in some styles low ranked persons might wery well be national champions (a green belt friend of mine was) or have extensive background in other arts.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> kindof my point... we all started in the ART. and still practice the ART.... yet...


The fact that the sport and the art have the same name is, in my opinion, hugely problematic.  I realize that the rule set was designed to showcase taekwondo's kicks in a live setting.  But look at what it has turned into.

It is now a foot/leg fencing sport that allows a continuous match for a set period of time and whoever makes contact to valid target areas the greatest number of times is the winner.  Not much room for art there.  And the sport *will* get promoted more than the art because there is much more money to be made in the sport.

The sport is not a bad sport; actually, its pretty cool.  But it has gone down the same road that sport fencing has: poke the other guy more than he pokes you.  If you're contorted like a pretzel and off ballance, so what?  You got the point.  If he hits you while you hit him, so what?  You both got a point so you are either still ahead or no further behind.

Sport TKD needs to take a page from the kendo rule book.  No valid point if you're off ballance, exhibit poor form, or are sloppy in your execution.  Personally, I think that they should reset the fighters after a valid point is scored, but make the scoring that point more challenging.  Keep the electronic hogu but also make judging of the form and execution the primary focus of scoring rather than just hit or no hit.  

In kendo, formality is maintained throughout the tournament.  You don't see fist pumping, victory dances, trash talking, or any of the other things that you see in ball sports.  This needs to be enforced in taekwondo.  At least if the art is to be more connected to the sport.  

Otherwise, completely separate the sport, ditch the fixed belt ranks and do it like fencing, where your ranking goes up and down based on your competition record, current ranking of your competition, and frequency of your competing.  

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

Cirdan said:


> Not that I disagree, but what exactly is the "much more" that formality brings to training?
> Basing respect on rank is not always smart either, in some styles low ranked persons might wery well be national champions (a green belt friend of mine was) or have extensive background in other arts.


Not to mention that rank is, as we all know, abused, bought and paid for these days.  Another hole that taekwondo schools have dug themselves into.  We've seen all of the discussions about eight year old black belts, black belts who look like yellow belts, black belts from one school who go to another school only to be no better than green and blue belts, and sometimes not even that.

In a sport, rank is meaningless.  You're only as good as your last fight, and the only rank that counts, champion, is difficult to hold onto; everyone is gunning for you.  

I do feel that respect needs to be a pervasive thing.  When at the dojang, respect is not based upon rank, but is part of the culture of the dojang.  Low ranks are respected for beginning the journey and high ranks are respected for their progress and the insight that they can impart.  

Respect is, as I recall, one of the tenets of taekwondo, regardless of rank.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> It's a sport. Its about winning. Rank is irrelevent in sport. You either win or you lose. Why? Because its a *sport*. Why does it surprise anyone that this has happened? Look at the behaviour of athletes in sports that have no connection to a formal martial art. Its the same there. After all, its a *sport*, so winning is the priority.


 
I agree that rank is irrelevent while in play, but outside of the ring, it should still hold merrit. Unlike the other sports out there, we were brought up, in theory, under the umbrella of respect for seniors and juniors. Trash talking, back in the day, was extremely frowned upon in TKD competition, hopefully still is. For other sports it is part of the culture.



			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> Sport taekwondo has divorced itself from the art. So what did people think was going to happen after the sport became an entirely separate entity?


Wherein lies the problem. It should never be a seperate part of TKD. The sport is still part of TKD and as such should still follow the decorum of respect that it was raised on. However, like you said, the sport mentality seems to be trumping the art mentality and that is sad.



			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> If a green belt can beat a black belt, does the belt really mean anything? In a sport, the belt means squat. If the green belt can win, he's better. Period. After all, its a *sport*.


 
I agree, while in the ring, it is the better man/woman who should win regardless of rank. However, once you step outside of the ring rank should again be a factor in how one addresses another. This is not to say if the black belt was a total *** then you should respect him/her regardless. If they are not deserving of respect due to a character flaw, the so be it, but until then respect should established.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> ABSOLUTELY,
> 
> Local events usually have more respect than national, however alot of that would be based off of a few factors. One usually at local events, most schools and instructors know each other, or of eachother and at national events not so much.


 
And this may be the difference between USTU and USAT.  During the days of USTU, many of the GM's knew each other via, their Korean connection and had a closer relationship with one another. As such the national level events still held that respect mentality because of that connection, similar to how local events hold that mentality now.  If a player disrespected another player, their instructor would hear about and it and the inevitable poop would role down hill.  As the old gaurd was pushed out in USAT, this cross country connection was pushed out as well.  It seems, from what I read and such that the new gaurd does not have a close of relationship with on another outside of national events.  Players seem to have more "freedom" if you will, to do and act as they please with no fear of rebuttal for their actions.  So this too may cause the lack of respect amongst players.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to mention that rank is, as we all know, abused, bought and paid for these days. Another hole that taekwondo schools have dug themselves into.


 
Not just Taekwondo but martial arts in general.




			
				Daniel Sullivan said:
			
		

> Respect is, as I recall, one of the tenets of taekwondo, regardless of rank.


 
Exactly


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I do feel that respect needs to be a pervasive thing.


 
Indeed. There are also very real benefits in a fight to this. Disrespecting your opponent is the same as potentially underestimating him, leaving you open to attack. When I bow to someone it is not a mindless gesture, I try to feel their rythm and intention. What is labeled as formality (and laughed at in some circles) is in fact as much part of the arts as punching or kicking.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Not just Taekwondo but martial arts in general.


Yes, but I think that it is pretty safe to say that Taekwondo comprises the largest percentage of it, due to the art having the largest number of schools.  

I'm also willing to say that taekwondo led the way in regards to the devaluation of the belts.  The devaluation of rank is due to rampant commercialization, which taekwondo is the most affected by.  Belts and rank became another avenue of income.  Once that happened, rank was no longer worthy of the same respect.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Yes, but I think that it is pretty safe to say that Taekwondo comprises the largest percentage of it, due to the art having the largest number of schools.
> 
> I'm also willing to say that taekwondo led the way in regards to the devaluation of the belts. The devaluation of rank is due to rampant commercialization, which taekwondo is the most affected by. Belts and rank became another avenue of income. Once that happened, rank was no longer worthy of the same respect.
> 
> Daniel


 
Since TKD is the most popular you definetly see it most rampant in the belt mills.  What would be an interesting study is to see if the percentage of TKD schools that are belt mills are the same or more than that of other arts.  

In other words you may have 100 TKD schools and 60 of them are belt mills (60%) and  you have 40 Karate schools and 24 of them are belt mills (60%) so it would be the same.  There just happen to be more TKD schools than Karate.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> I agree that rank is irrelevent while in play, but outside of the ring, it should still hold merrit. Unlike the other sports out there, we were brought up, in theory, under the umbrella of respect for seniors and juniors. Trash talking, back in the day, was extremely frowned upon in TKD competition, hopefully still is. For other sports it is part of the culture.
> 
> Wherein lies the problem. It should never be a seperate part of TKD. The sport is still part of TKD and as such should still follow the decorum of respect that it was raised on. However, like you said, the sport mentality seems to be trumping the art mentality and that is sad.
> 
> ...


I agree with you in principle, but in reality, sport is sport and is no longer representative of taekwondo.  Other sports have ways of dealing with respect.  Fencing still maintains a high degree of sportsmanship, inspite of the fact that it is most definitely a sport.  

Sport mentality will continue to trump the art because the art has, in my opinion, lost any clear direction, in large part due to the state of the three largest groups (KKW/WTF, ITF, and ATA) while sport is straight forward.  

If you are going to go the sport rout, you need to accept that the sport is *not* a martial art and run it like a sport.  Or make the 'art' aspects of taekwondo a more integral part of the sport (see my kendo comparison in my previous post).  The latter would be preferable, but not likely.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Since TKD is the most popular you definetly see it most rampant in the belt mills. What would be an interesting study is to see if the percentage of TKD schools that are belt mills are the same or more than that of other arts.
> 
> In other words you may have 100 TKD schools and 60 of them are belt mills (60%) and you have 40 Karate schools and 24 of them are belt mills (60%) so it would be the same. There just happen to be more TKD schools than Karate.


From what I have seen, both quanity and percentage is greater in taekwondo.  This would be true if were any other art.  Once you have the quanity, the percentage goes up because you now have a commercial dynamic in motion that perpetuates itself throughout the art.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

As I stated previously,



Daniel Sullivan said:


> Sport TKD needs to take a page from the kendo rule book. *No valid point if you're off ballance, exhibit poor form, or are sloppy in your execution. Personally, I think that they should reset the fighters after a valid point is scored, but make the scoring that point more challenging. Keep the electronic hogu but also make judging of the form and execution the primary focus of scoring rather than just hit or no hit.*


The above would solve all pretty much all of the issues with the sport and would do a *lot* to improve taekwondo's image. It would also improve the quality of the practitioners, as it would place an emphasis on correct technique under pressure.  Belts could be kept and rank maintained.  The gear suppliers get to keep their thing going and nobody has to go out and relearn their techniques.  The 'art not sport' crowd would see well executed correct kicks in a competion environment and would be able to connect what they see in the sport to the art.

Everyone wins.

Daniel


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 19, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.
> 
> I have never been a drop to your feet and worship me type of person, but a little respect is deserved but rarely given within this Sport community.


 
The worship of elite fighters over the Traditional Values of the whole art started in the US in full swing in the early 70's. I complained about behavior and abuse issues to my GM explaining Dan's and higher rank should not be given to people who have behavior issues. I soon realized that in the business of MA the top fighter and large trophies was a way to get people to come into the DoJang. 

Next thing you know it becomes a race/cold war between Dojangs who has the most state,jr national,national champions. Any master that could say or advertise they are an Olympic coach is better than another DoJang. Mind you this all started with USTU. But the Olympic dream and sport TKD was just that a dream and not serving the masses who pay for everything. In addition the original purpose and method of fighting became so watered down that fighting was reduced to a game of tag just trying to finish with one point ahead and reduced to a litigation of scores instead of respect for judges or hope of fair and unbiased scoring? 

Now the preverbial birds have come home to roost and we are left with the USAT and MMA proposing they are the answer to everything. I listened to my own GM explaining to one of our senior bb who had 15,000 square feet do jang all matted in fighting rings who lost 75% of his students you need to not push sport TKD and go back to Traditional TKD roots. Sad thing is many Sports focused masters were never taught anything but sport and are strugling to find something else to do or just end up quiting teaching and training all together. 

I have a Korean Master I have a special love for who has nothing to do with sport/Olympic TKD and focuses on traditional TKD values abstaining from involvement with all the politics and back stabbing that goes on here between masters and other clubs he believes there is just one Tae Kwon Do and loves that. He once said to me you Americans ( American Masters) are greedy you want respect but you must show respect by example to teach them. Anyway he has the most successfull Do Jang in the state while the other Masters bad mouth him he just built a new $7 milion dollar Dojang.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I have seen, both quanity and percentage is greater in taekwondo.  This would be true if were any other art.  Once you have the quanity, the percentage goes up because you now have a commercial dynamic in motion that perpetuates itself throughout the art.
> 
> Daniel




Makes sense to me.  The bigger participation you get in something, the stronger the undercurrent to move towards the lowest common denominator.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Makes sense to me. The bigger participation you get in something, the stronger the undercurrent to move towards the lowest common denominator.


Not so much lowest common denominator as highest model for profit.  Everyone wants to succeed.  Everyone wants to do well.  As Master Dan pointed out, competition trophies bring people into the school.  And so, sport and competition were emphasized.

Same happened with daycare, fitness programs, and other programs that were tangental but profitable.  Once the model is working for a few, it is adopted by many.

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not so much lowest common denominator as highest model for profit.  Everyone wants to succeed.  Everyone wants to do well.  As Master Dan pointed out, competition trophies bring people into the school.  And so, sport and competition were emphasized.



I have no idea about the profit aspect, but teaching children together with adults as I now do, I'm very much constrained by what the least experienced and least able student can do when we run through the exercises.  In the small training space we have available, it's not practical to divide and run tandem sessions with different activities.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I have no idea about the profit aspect, but teaching children together with adults as I now do, I'm very much constrained by what the least experienced and least able student can do when we run through the exercises. In the small training space we have available, it's not practical to divide and run tandem sessions with different activities.


Yes, I experience that in mixed classes as well, thought that was not the dynamic that I was referring to.

I was talking about the rapid promotion of students in order to collect testing fees, which results in inferior black belts because the students have not stayed in the geub grades long enough to have fully internalized the material. Said blackbelts may also have deficiencies in maturity, resulting in a lack of proper respect and behavior. Lower belts within the arts see this and the rank of black belt is devalued. People outside of the art see this and taekwondo black belts are devalued.  It's hard to respect a rank that was given in the interest of financial gain.

What I mean by daycare is not mixed classes but afterschool programs, summer camp, etc.  And of course, the aforementioned fitness programs are another commercially motivated item.  Not that these things are bad, in and of themselves, but they are each another thing to divert the efforts of the school in directions that are not related to the teaching of taekwondo.  Most schools cannot afford to hire dedicated personel to staff these programs, so instructors double as daycare providers and personal trainers, when really, their time outside of the classes they teach is better spent training and maintaining their own skills. 

Daniel


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I was talking about the rapid promotion of students in order to collect testing fees, which results in inferior black belts because the students have not stayed in the geub grades long enough to have fully internalized the material.  Said blackbelts may also have deficiencies in maturity, resulting in a lack of proper respect and behavior.  Lower belts within the arts see this and the rank of black belt is devalued.  People outside of the art see this and taekwondo black belts are devalued.



I can't agree more.  Perhaps I should start a new thread, but IMO this is tied into the popular belief that 'a black belt means you are now ready to really learn'.  Rapid, expected promotions every 2-3 months also contribute to students deficient in both technique and attitude.


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 19, 2010)

*I wanted to jump in again related to sport sparring?*

The traditional reason for sparring was never about children and average family members to fight and compete at some high level to determin a winner.

At one time in Korea sparring was used to determine political posts by a process of elimination with the highest post going to the most qualified fighter not wining by one point but last man standing so to speak.

The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys) things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally. 

Fighting was never meant to be a pure sport related the Olympics and hence alot of quality in fighting and even technique was lost especially the use of hands. My GM was first cousin to Mas Oyama and had many of his strengths related to hands and he once in frustration related to me in 2002 that they should just call TKD Foot Way because the art of using the hands is lost, not realizing that he and others are responsible for that loss due to being part of the watering down of the traditional art form in the name of chasing the dollar and the prestige of the Olympics.

The point to being a BB is not just *pure force* but *Control.* Control to hit or touch exactly what you want were you want how you want. That is key to self defense and key to students training hard with out injury. We have lost that and now train and run tournaments like a bunch of scared chickens afraid of any contact. Training kids to not even attempt head contact for years and then all of sudden you can is rediculous!! The person throwing technique must have control and pull it if needed regardless what if the other kid bends over? The person getting taged in the head is learning to keep thier guard up. 

What is a center referee for? The minute he sees excessive contact he should step in and stop the fight. For adult competitors they should have the maturity to bow out if they are totally out matched.

*The purpose of fighting was never sport! *The purpose of tournament was education, to watch and study the oponents or others and to learn what works and what does not work. Our GM always taught that winning was many times luck combined with being a smarter fighter not just pure techinque. Controling the fight so that your contact was clearly visiable to as many of the corner judges as possible, attitude and agressive pursuit. But at the end of the day a bit of luck and you had favorable judges and the moral fiber to take what ever the decision was with good attitude never never argue with the judges and refs. The point to fighting was to build character, learn and to earn the respect of your oponent by making him work for it if he was going to win. Best advice want to win simple knock the other person out!!!!

My favorite story told by Ernie Reyes Senior's GM was about fighting in Korea. He said that he trained for weeks in the mountains letting the Buddhist Preists feed him rice till he became so powerful he felt he could break trees and crush rocks. The day came for the tournament he destroyed all his oponents then it came to the final and a much smaller competitor came out he had no respect for him figured he beat him easily. At every point the smaller man beat him faster smarter no matter what he did and he lost the fight. He tore off his uniform and threw on the ground in the arean and ran away to weep like a baby in hidding. He learned a great lesson that day that being a smart fighter was just as important as just being strong. He also learned he had a very bad attitude and that he had to change.

It is an honor to fight the best and a great reward to earn thier respect. Winning 1st 2nd 3rd is not the focus but participation and effort is its own reward. The only loosers are the people who choose to sit on thier butts becasue they can't have 1st place?? Our whole American culture around the Olympics Oh so sad you only got Bronze?? That is Fd up. 

Tae Kwon Do is trying to go back in time to Traditional Values but It will only happen one master at a time it remains to be seen if one national organization will be ever able to do that again Tae Kwon Do for myself, for others and for my country. I now only take students to open tournaments that they can get exposure to many arts and cultural education I could care less about Olympic Sport


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I can't agree more. Perhaps I should start a new thread, but IMO this is tied into the popular belief that 'a black belt means you are now ready to really learn'.


Originally, or at least the way that I first heard that, it was that "a black belt has learned *how* to learn," which is very different from being ready to learn.  Phrased that way, I agree with it, but also feel that that is only part of the picture.  A black belt has learned how to learn in the art because they have become proficient in the geub grade material.  Proficiency in a large body of material takes time, often more than two years, which brings us to the problem you mention below...



dancingalone said:


> Rapid, expected promotions every 2-3 months also contribute to students deficient in both technique and attitude.


This is detrimental to the development of one's students, and the whole _blackbelt-having-learned-how-to-learn_ philosophy has been misused to justify rapid promotions, which generally are more about collection of as many testing fees as possible so that should the student quit after two years, they've gotten as much money out them as possible.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Master Dan said:
			
		

> At one time in Korea sparring was used to determine political posts by a process of elimination with the highest post going to the most qualified fighter not wining by one point but last man standing so to speak.


Political post as in government or TKD?  When was this done?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?


Beats me.  I don't recall tkd organizations ever appointing posts in such a way and if the Korean government ever did (which I doubt), it was prior to the fourteenth century.

Skill at arms is not really a good indicator of skill in administrating.  One need only look at the woes of the Kukkiwon in recent years to see that.

Daniel


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?


 
I am sure they found some wall carvings in a cave somewhere...


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 19, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by* men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys)* things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally.



Surely the two can coincide and should?  General Choi and most of the kwan founders were educated men.  Choi even wrote books, some on military intelligence to boot.

Japan's post-war constitution was written by General MacArthur... who graduated first in his class at West Point.

And of course we know the outstanding scholarship the majority of the US' Founding Fathers possessed.  Jefferson and Adams were both legal scholars, and Adams was a famous courtroom lawyer.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Master Dan said:
			
		

> The public consensus as it was taught to me was that when the country was run by men of valor ( fighters with honor) things went well when the country was run by men of Letters ( attorneys) things did not go so well. This was a basic philosphy of many early GM's mine as well as Ernie Reyes Senior's GM who taught the purpose of fighting was to develop maturity both spiritual and mental and improve basic self defense conditioning both physically and mentally.


 
No disrespect meant towards your GM, but I highly recommend reading up on Korean history.  There has always been in fighting with Korea.  Kings were overthrown multiple times by the "men of valor" and not always because the Kings were tyranical to the people, some were overthrown simply because of someone disagreed with them or someone just wanted power.

By "men of Letters" I will assume he is referring to more Neo-Confusianism which took control towards the end of the Koryo dynasty.  Ironicly prior to that the men of valor time took great pride in the caste system and position of the heirarchy was everything.  During the men of Letters time, the caste system slowly was broken down.  The philosophical ideas of the role of government was to serve the common man in all factions of life.


----------



## StudentCarl (Nov 19, 2010)

One thing it did was to level the playing field. In a sport, respect is earned in part through skill. Sport gives skill a higher value than it does seniority (belt level, age, etc.). It places value on what you can do more than how you're dressed--in that way it gives a reality check. What can you deliver on the mat?

What it doesn't change is sportsmanship, which grants (or should) unconditional respect (and courtesy) to others regardless of skill, age, rank, etc. The tenets are core to the definition of taekwondo values, but it's no stretch to say they are also core values within the concept of sportsmanship--for any sport.

It also doesn't change that respect is earned through character and contribution.


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> ..........Now the preverbial birds have come home to roost and we are left with the USAT and MMA proposing they are the answer to everything. ..............


 

Ah the sneaky attack on MMA, I'm not sure how you work out that MMA thinks it has the answer to everything lol, it's not an organisation at all. In many countries it doesn't even have a governing body.
 It might be an idea to stop blaming MMA for everything and keep to the subject of the OP.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> One thing it did was to level the playing field. In a sport, respect is earned in part through skill. Sport gives skill a higher value than it does seniority (belt level, age, etc.). It places value on what you can do more than how you're dressed--in that way it gives a reality check. What can you deliver on the mat?
> 
> What it doesn't change is sportsmanship, which grants (or should) unconditional respect (and courtesy) to others regardless of skill, age, rank, etc. The tenets are core to the definition of taekwondo values, but it's no stretch to say they are also core values within the concept of sportsmanship--for any sport.
> 
> It also doesn't change that respect is earned through character and contribution.


Great post!  

One of the problems with sport TKD is that it is that the context of sportsmanship is not strongly defined.  The way it is in established sports.  That is one of the problems with divorcing the sport from the art but trying to hang on to the outward trappings of the art and trying to be called a martial art.

Certainly, it can be done.

Daniel


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Ah the sneaky attack on MMA, I'm not sure how you work out that MMA thinks it has the answer to everything lol, it's not an organisation at all. In many countries it doesn't even have a governing body.
> It might be an idea to stop blaming MMA for everything and keep to the subject of the OP.


Say it aint so!  MMA doesn't have the answer to everything?  Well snickerdoodles!  First the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are revealed to be nonexistent and now this!!  At least I still have Santa Claus.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Say it aint so! MMA doesn't have the answer to everything? Well snickerdoodles! First the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are revealed to be nonexistent and now this!! At least I still have Santa Claus.
> 
> Daniel


 
Wait....what about the Easter Bunny?


----------



## d1jinx (Nov 19, 2010)

StudentCarl said:


> One thing it did was to level the playing field. In a sport, respect is earned in part through skill. Sport gives skill a higher value than it does seniority (belt level, age, etc.). It places value on what you can do more than how you're dressed--in that way it gives a reality check. What can you deliver on the mat?
> .


 
True, but there are many TALENTED TKD-ers who have MUCH skill, but are not given the opportunity in this "sport" to showcase that.

Because of this, I wouldn't say the "playing field is level".

The sport, took regular competition and made it an exclusive EXPENSIVE beast that only a few can be privilaged enough to participate.

I'm not trying to say money/poor students type thing...  some who have the money still may not be privilaged enough to compete or determined enough to travel or pay to compete.  We all know at some events, "only the IN crowd" has a chance...  I know... OFF TOPIC.   sorry.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 19, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> True, but there are many TALENTED TKD-ers who have MUCH skill, but are not given the opportunity in this "sport" to showcase that.
> 
> Because of this, I wouldn't say the "playing field is level".
> 
> ...


In other words, the field is level, but the path to it is not.

Daniel


----------



## Tez3 (Nov 19, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Say it aint so! MMA doesn't have the answer to everything? Well snickerdoodles! First the Easter Bunny and the tooth fairy are revealed to be nonexistent and now this!! At least I still have Santa Claus.
> 
> Daniel


 
However from my own exhaustive tests I can tell you that MMA does make you a better lover! :ultracool helps you stop smoking, shuts the neighbours up and impresses little kids!

It's stress relieving, makes you fit, and is great fun! Bring a sense of humour, open your mind, leave your ego at the door and you're hunky dory!


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 19, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Political post as in government or TKD? When was this done?


 
Actual political posts running the Government not in our time obviously


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 19, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Surely the two can coincide and should? General Choi and most of the kwan founders were educated men. Choi even wrote books, some on military intelligence to boot.
> 
> Japan's post-war constitution was written by General MacArthur... who graduated first in his class at West Point.
> 
> And of course we know the outstanding scholarship the majority of the US' Founding Fathers possessed. Jefferson and Adams were both legal scholars, and Adams was a famous courtroom lawyer.


 
This was a common theme at General Choi's instructor courses. He taught that we needed to develop our students as "Soldiers and scholars."


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 19, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Actual political posts running the Government not in our time obviously


What specific time in Korean are you talking about.  I don't recall any studies on how they would fight for posts.


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 20, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> What specific time in Korean are you talking about. I don't recall any studies on how they would fight for posts.


 
I wouldn`t hold my breath. Half of Dan`s posts appears to be tales from some parallel reality quite different from our own. Like the time he supposedly watched Morihei Ueshiba demonstrate "mind blocks"

I wonder if the good Master could fill us in on his detailed training history, no doubt it would be extremely interesting (not to mention potentially entertaining.)


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 20, 2010)

Well, just to be safe I chatted with my wife about this...her background is that she is from Korea and minored in Korean History in college. Add that with what I have read up on and all the really cool Korean history dramas I watch, neither one of us could find a time in Korean history where they fought for political position. So unless he can shoot out some factual time frames, I'm going to say that he has watched too many kung fu movies.


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 21, 2010)

When making a statement of opinion related to topic such as the one above I generally ralate that to observation and experience related to 40 years in the art. It would seem these days there is less and less respect by the younger generations for any respect or value given to those who have decades of education or experience. 

There is no original thought all knowledge comes from somewhere but it is interesting to see how that shared knowledge has effected ones life uniquely. Some times I will make a comment because it will create discussion so that those peopel with some specific expertise will comment and I will learn as well as others. 

Getting back to the issue of Men of letters and Men of Valor or fighting ability to decide a political post. This was not my original thought but told to me face to face in quiet dicusions with my GM who at one time was the most senior 9th Dan in Nth and Sth America and like many people had his personal bias or even embelished. But on this point he seemed very serious in his belief. I appreciate those of you who gave a more factual litteral account which I am sure you are right from your information and perspective. However it does cause me to ponder why he would have had such a firm belief in his mind and I intend to ask those other GM's who knew him well why he would have held such and opinion if they even know? Regardless in his life time he accomplished enough in combat in blood and death as well as the tireless contributions to TKD as a World Olympic and Traditional art that he earned the right to his personal beliefs wtih out insulting or negative rebutal from me or anyone else.

Getting back to the issue of the Founder of Akido doing a demo of mind blocks? It would seem that is another issue entirely and has no bassis in this forum about Sport TKD but since you brought it up a last time. First the University seating at this event not counting people on the floor was 3,000. Second GM Choi never used the name of the Akido GM doing the demo we were young and we were only told he was the 10th Dan Founder.  I never relayed this story to impune or insult your GM but relayed it from a 3rd person perspective it is what it is. However your insults related to my alternate reality mask your actual meaning that I am a lier. You should just man up and say that plain and simple. Lets look at the logic you say it did not happen because you were not there??

Humm? Interesting logic. So using that logic nothing is true since you were not there lets go back in time lets say history of Man I guess 1 or two things may have happend that are true when you were not there?

I have a great love of Akido, The DoJo's I have seen are to die for. I like what I have seen based on the non profit dedication to traditional MA and the community and thier students. That said Lets stay on topic here about sport TKD you are welcome to insult me and my GM on another Forum or start one that seems to be the pattern of the Cyber warrior these days its a waste of time.


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 21, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> When making a statement of opinion related to topic such as the one above I generally ralate that to observation and experience related to 40 years in the art. It would seem these days there is less and less respect by the younger generations for any respect or value given to those who have decades of education or experience.


 
Perhaps you should have taken a moment of those 40 years to check some of your facts, venerable Master. 

But go on posting, you are the most entertaining person here by far. :bangahead:


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> This was not my original thought but told to me face to face in quiet dicusions with my GM who at one time was the most senior 9th Dan in Nth and Sth America and like many people had his personal bias or even embelished. But on this point he seemed very serious in his belief.


 
Please advise who this was / is?   GM Lee? GM Son? At one time??  When did this occur? What changed did someone senior come from Korea and out rank him.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 21, 2010)

The more limiting th sport the more damage it has done to TKD. 

As and if  each of the following was eliminated to concentrate on the sport aspect the greater the damage to the "ART". (Not neccesarily in order of importance

1. No patterns
2. No Breaking
3. No Punching to the head
4. No teaching of Philosophy
5. No Techniques below the belt.


----------



## MSUTKD (Nov 21, 2010)

Master Dan,

Don't you owe somebody in Taekwondo some money for some equipment they help you with?  Is that true?


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 21, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> Master Dan,
> 
> Don't you owe somebody in Taekwondo some money for some equipment they help you with? Is that true?


 

Again off topic for this forum. A large corporation and attorneys are dealing with that most of which could have been avoided if higher rank had not pushed me to launch in 60 days instead of 18 months as I advised them in writting also many promices were made high rank and officials for help from many sources if I just allowed the foriegn instructors to land in USA well it did not come and I got stuck for alot of cash expenses, the loss in $200,000 in assets and the loss of a consistant $100,000 income a year which to date looks like it will never or for some time return? 

Don't go down the road of taking cheap shots at me about something you know nothing of just because some little boy of a man got put in his place a few years ago and has tried to think of nothing else he can do but try and defame or get even so he trys to poke and jab on the surface like he knows me or what I have done the last 16 years like an old woman with nothing better to do than gosip or make up what he dosn't know.

Even in Oakland when a representative of the University involved walked up in front of the KKW group called my name and said we are going to help you. did they call did they do anything or any of the others involved in this? hell no when the global economic crisis hit even while I was in Korea all the big talk just dried up.

The real loss here is not a few bucks not even 5% of what I have paid up front cash for any equipment I recieved or used over the years. Its the fact that a program negotiated with Senate staff, Universities, Embasies, 16 years of pilot programs and research and the supply of 150 instructors over 5 years in one entire school district that that year got over $40 million in grants alone would not step up and help out till the federal grants would take over in 9 months. I shut it down and would not allow the next transfer of instructors to be sent after spending every penny I had and thats ok the real loss is the poorest and most abused kids in this USA lost out on a program that past Governors, Senators, native corporations, health officials and little kids said saved lives. Why becuase a few greedy adults as always take thier personal politics or needs above that of kids happens all the time. After that I have to eat a **** sandwhich from people like you or others put up to it by an evil trol. 

I was already working with a company on my behalf to negotate the school district to pay for the equipment and leave in place so when future grants come in the instructors can come back in but smart mouth people had to get involved and I made it clear I would not tolerate disrespect to me or other behavior so the idiot sales manager insults the company they hire by contract to work with me in writting and they are laughing because they get paid $5,000 grand cash wether they work or not and the new cowboy they hire impersonates law enforcement because he only gets paid if he collects and pissed everybody off. So now the School district is boxing every thing up for return which 80% was never used yet so how can I go to my corporate sponsors of decades and ask them to pay for it when it is being returned. 

Its taken a year to step back and realize that the work completed is worthwhile and will still lay a base for future work and other projects. The supplier is being compensated and eventually will be repaid everthing but those involved who helped violated federal law in this matter are going to pay. 

My GM stated that its not about wining 1st place or being wrong but all effort is good related to learning what matters you are still alive and breathing survival never stop learning. I survived a wife killed by hit and run a daughter born terminal costing $ 4million before she died suffering for 8 years 24/7 any of you think you can hurt me with little comments your dreaming. I live one more day at a time to help kids that cannot help themselves kicking me is like kicking them.


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 21, 2010)

How about you awnser Earl Weiss` question?


----------



## MSUTKD (Nov 21, 2010)

Just asking. I got an email about you and thought I would just ask directly.  Thanks for the story, it should set the record straight because I was not the only one who received that mail.


----------



## d1jinx (Nov 21, 2010)

MSUTKD said:


> Just asking. I got an email about you and thought I would just ask directly. Thanks for the story, it should set the record straight because I was not the only one who received that mail.


 
me too!


----------



## Archtkd (Nov 21, 2010)

Wow! Where did this come from? 



Master Dan said:


> Again off topic for this forum. A large corporation and attorneys are dealing with that most of which could have been avoided if higher rank had not pushed me to launch in 60 days instead of 18 months as I advised them in writting also many promices were made high rank and officials for help from many sources if I just allowed the foriegn instructors to land in USA well it did not come and I got stuck for alot of cash expenses, the loss in $200,000 in assets and the loss of a consistant $100,000 income a year which to date looks like it will never or for some time return?
> 
> Don't go down the road of taking cheap shots at me about something you know nothing of just because some little boy of a man got put in his place a few years ago and has tried to think of nothing else he can do but try and defame or get even so he trys to poke and jab on the surface like he knows me or what I have done the last 16 years like an old woman with nothing better to do than gosip or make up what he dosn't know.....


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 22, 2010)

Can we please return to the OP?  

Korea's alleged use of Mortal Kombat in political appointments and Ueshiba's use of mind blocks belong in their own threads in other sections.  

Discussions with Master Dan about his corporate issue should be handled via pm. with him if you are looking to clarify something with him.

Daniel


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 22, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Can we please return to the OP?
> 
> Korea's alleged use of Mortal Kombat in political appointments and Ueshiba's use of mind blocks belong in their own threads in other sections.
> 
> ...


 

Great idea. A response to post 51 probably got sidetracked.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 22, 2010)

Master Dan said:
			
		

> Getting back to the issue of Men of letters and Men of Valor or fighting ability to decide a political post. This was not my original thought but told to me face to face in quiet dicusions with my GM who at one time was the most senior 9th Dan in Nth and Sth America and like many people had his personal bias or even embelished.


Naturally my first question is who was your GM?  Secondly there is a fine line between embelish and full out lying.   There is no bias in that statement he made...He simply lied to you, or never studied his own history.



			
				Master Dan said:
			
		

> But on this point he seemed very serious in his belief. I appreciate those of you who gave a more factual litteral account which I am sure you are right from your information and perspective. However it does cause me to ponder why he would have had such a firm belief in his mind and I intend to ask those other GM's who knew him well why he would have held such and opinion if they even know? Regardless in his life time he accomplished enough in combat in blood and death as well as the tireless contributions to TKD as a World Olympic and Traditional art that he earned the right to his personal beliefs wtih out insulting or negative rebutal from me or anyone else.


Many instructors loved to give a romantic view of the origins of TKD.  We have all heard the 2000 year old history story along with how the Hwarang practiced in hiding to develop what is now TKD.  These were great stories to foreigners since our only exposure to martial arts was usually Samurai Sundays or the Kung Fu Hour on TV.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 22, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> The more limiting th sport the more damage it has done to TKD.
> 
> As and if each of the following was eliminated to concentrate on the sport aspect the greater the damage to the "ART". (Not neccesarily in order of importance
> 
> ...


Regarding number one, no patterns, patterns used in competition seem to have drifted away from the original use of patterns as well.  Patterns were meant to reinforce technique and to serve as a teaching tool.  Patterns, in general, contain further technique that is meant to be taught with them (karate calls it bunkai), and this has definitely been diminished to the point of nonexistence in taekwondo, at least on a broad scale.  

Now, aesthetics are more important than functionality and subjective judging has rendered forms competions to be no more relevant to the martial arts than gymnastics or figure skating.  

The limiting of techniques in the sport bother me less than the shift to an _if I hit other guy more times than he hits me then I'm doing good mentality_.  

Also, the fact that little to no ephasis is placed on the quality of the kicks used and that what hand techniques are allowed are, as I understand, generally not scored further damages both the art *and* the sport.

To be perfectly frank, nobody outside of taekwondo, and not everyone inside of taekwondo, takes sport TKD seriously.  Aside from the fact that people worked very hard to get it into the olympics, and are thus invested in it, the sport has essentially no following and, if what I read is to be believed, a very poor method of developing athletes on any kind of large scale.  Compare that to football, baseball, basketball, tennis, wrestling or boxing. 

The sport uses an model that is highly unsuited to developing a sport; one or two 'it' training camps and slew of dojangs that are, to varying degrees, extensions of what karate dojos were in the sixties and seventies.  Back then, the tournament was a side show, something to allow schools to establish their reputations, and the tournaments, of course, were a lot broader in what techniques they allowed.  If the school was producing tournament champions, it was likely because they were producing good, all around solid, fighters, *not *because of some kind of specialized athletics program. 

As I have stated previously and in previous threads, I have no problem with the sport and respect the hard work and dedication of the athletes.  But the sport needs to be separated competely from the art of taekwondo and needs to be trained in gyms, like boxing and wrestling are, and not in MA studios.  Given the appeal to kids, the next logical step for the sport is to try to make inroads into the school system and colleges the way that football and wrestling have.  The sport would gain much, much more traction that way and would break the hold of the 'exclusive training camps' pretty quickly.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 22, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As I have stated previously and in previous threads, I have no problem with the sport and respect the hard work and dedication of the athletes. But the sport needs to be separated competely from the art of taekwondo and needs to be trained in gyms, like boxing and wrestling are, and not in MA studios. Given the appeal to kids, the next logical step for the sport is to try to make inroads into the school system and colleges the way that football and wrestling have. The sport would gain much, much more traction that way and would break the hold of the 'exclusive training camps' pretty quickly.
> 
> Daniel


 
Well we have seen it break on the scene at the collegiate level, but not so much on the high school or middle school level where they start to introduce sports such as football and wrestling into the school system.  Unfortunately for that to happen you would need government funding of such programs along with qualified coaching, which I do not see happening, because they can barely keep teachers on staff much less sponsor a TKD team and their needs.  

I am of the view point that sport shouldn't be seperated from the curriculum but it should not be the sole focus of the curriculum either.  This where the problem lies in my opinoin.  Too many schools switched their focus on trying to train people for the sport that they lost grip with the core of TKD itself.  

Not everyone that walks into a dojang has their eyes set on being an elite athlete for the olympics.


----------



## dancingalone (Nov 22, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Now, aesthetics are more important than functionality and subjective judging has rendered forms competions to be no more relevant to the martial arts than gymnastics or figure skating.



Yep.  It's a problem endemic with forms competitions in general.  In karate tournaments, there's something call shitei kata, which are essentially standardized forms chosen from each of the 4 major Japanese styles.  They are meant to level the field so that a Goju stylist can compete in kata with someone from Shotokan or Wado-ryu.

I myself think shitei kata are an abomination and they are a concise summary of everything you could do wrong in training kata (for looks without necessarily also meaning).


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 22, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Well we have seen it break on the scene at the collegiate level, but not so much on the high school or middle school level where they start to introduce sports such as football and wrestling into the school system. Unfortunately for that to happen you would need government funding of such programs along with qualified coaching, which I do not see happening, because they can barely keep teachers on staff much less sponsor a TKD team and their needs.


All high school sports are established in the high schools because *somebody* did the work to get them in place. If those who are behind sport TKD are unwilling to do that work, then they should quit complaining about things like elite training camps and the Lopez's having the olympics locked in; the Lopez family did the work to get their positions secured, good or bad, deserving or no. 

If it is to take hold at the college level, there needs to be momentum at the high school level. You cannot build a sport from the top down; it simply will not work. Nor will it work at the high school level without some kind of support prior to students entering high school. Individual dojangs are not organized in such a way as to be effective in growing the sport, but they are fine for giving elementary and middle schoolers a base so that they could compete at a high school level.

High schools, junior high; both public and private, boys and girls clubs, and local leagues. These are what are needed. 

There is no such thing as a WTF school. Want to build the sport without going through the same channels as every other sport? Establish WTF schools. I understand that you can have USAT schools. USAT schools need to be aggresive in building their sport programs and they need to build them as *sports*. Remember, its a specialized sport, *not* an MA, so it needs to be handled as one.



miguksaram said:


> I am of the view point that sport shouldn't be seperated from the curriculum but it should not be the sole focus of the curriculum either.


I have yet to see any valid reasons for *not* separating the sport. 

Why not separate them? Your very statement... 


miguksaram said:


> This where the problem lies in my opinoin. Too many schools switched their focus on trying to train people for the sport that they lost grip with the core of TKD itself.


...demonstrates why they ought to be separated: you cannot maintain a strong sport program and a strong traditional program *without* separating them. They have nothing to do with eachother. You are literally teaching two separate curriculums at the same time and will end up with one doing well and the other suffering or neither doing well and both suffering. 

WTF sport TKD has about as much to do with the art of taekwondo as boxing does. They are not the same; their paths have gone in opposite directions, and now that the cat is out of the bag, there is no putting it back in. 

Some kendo dojos offer Iaido. Iai and kendo both are regulated by the ZNKR, but Iai is a separate art and one ranks in it separately from kendo. As well they should; the two have little in common aside from hakamas and uwagis. The shinai is almost a foot longer than a katana, is straight; not curved, and the targets in kendo are limited to all above the waist, with only a portion of the torso, head and arms being valid points. 

And kendo has more in commmon with Iaido than sport TKD does with taekwondo!

Want to keep them both in the same studio? Fine, but make them separate programs and rank the comp students separately from the 'art' students. There should be ranks in Kukki taekwondo and separate ranks in WTF sport. The two are completely different and should not be taught together.

The only way to keep the two together without one or the other being neglected would be to change the rules of the sport to reflect the art. But then you end up with sport karate, and the WTF will *not* sanction that. 



miguksaram said:


> Not everyone that walks into a dojang has their eyes set on being an elite athlete for the olympics.


Unless you build the sport, there will be nothing *but* the olympics to shoot for. Sports that succeed on any major level do so without the olympics. 

Nobody cares one bit about bobsledding, gymnastics, swimming or figure skating until the olympics (sounds harsh, but nobody cares about 'Olympic' taekwondo even *during* the olympics). 

Do those sports have their niche carved out? Yes, they do, and that is part of why taekwondo cannot succeed as it currently stands: the space that TKD needs as a sport with the olympics as the major goal has already been filled by other sports with established mechanisms for developing athletes. 

You will not raise public interest in taekwondo *as a sport* by means of the olympics. That is because people do not bring their kids to the dojang to help them become athletes. 

People have a perception that martial arts will teach their kids to defend themselves and will help to develop them as people. They don't care about the olympics or tournaments. Glitzy trophies in the window are a signal to western customers that the school is competent. They really don't care about the trophies, who won them, or in what tournament they were won. That is why dojangs are ill equiped to develop athletes.

The effort to develop athletes in dojangs was doomed from the start: dojangs were never intended to develop athletes.  In focusing on sport, they shifted away from why their clientelle were actually in the studio in the first place.

Daniel


----------



## Archtkd (Nov 23, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> For me the obvious Downfall from the implimitation of the "sport" side of Taekwondo was the quick decline in the lack of respect for the art and rank of others.
> 
> When the USTU ran things, they had many issues too, but the respect factor was almost always present (sometime overboard but still there, remember opening ceremonies and gifts to all the grandmasters... that lasted HOURS?)
> 
> ...



Back to the thread. although I'm tempted to rotate back to the more salacious stuff:

For all the bashing many of us like to dump on the sport aspects of Taekwondo there's quite a bit of good stuff that sport has helped bring to the art. Some folks who are much brighter than I have even suggested that the truly original Korean thing in WTF Taekwondo today is the development of footwork, kicking, punching, evading and to a lesser degree the blocking innovations that have sprung from the sport aspects of Taekwondo. Ongoing global research and development on the same is keeping the art in perpetual evolution -- to the dismay and disgust of some of us. How dare they change things!

The respect thing and the deterioration thereof can't be solely pinned on the USAT or other Taekwondo organizations. In general, there is a global decline in good manners and less appreciation for old school values. The causes of that slide include plain stupidity, poor or lack of good parenting, societal upheaval, lousy dojang leadership, educational stagnation, etc. Just look at the way many of us on MT choose to communicate (or miscommunicate) to get a good idea of what's gone wrong with Taekwondo and other martial arts.  I even fear that the way this particular post will be dealt with will give us some more clues about the depth of rot that's slowly eating us all.  The USAT and other Taekwondo orgs will not have anything to do with it.


----------



## StudentCarl (Nov 23, 2010)

Archtkd said:


> ... the truly original Korean thing in WTF Taekwondo today is the development of footwork, kicking, punching, evading and to a lesser degree the blocking innovations that have sprung from the sport aspects of Taekwondo...


 
Well said. I spent the weekend at an athlete development camp. Much of our time was spent on transitions, footwork, and space and distance management, along with kicking and punching within those varying distances. 

Learning these things is like learning to box a person instead of punching bags. Boxing is much, much more than just being able to punch. You can develop a decent jab, cross, hook, straight punch, etc, and have no clue how to move to use them effectively together, much less defend yourself.


----------



## d1jinx (Nov 23, 2010)

this wasn't meant to be a bash USAT thing,

Both sides are welcomed and wanted... good and bad.

Unfortunately the negative always seems to take the lime light and that I too am guilty of contributing too...

One positive from the sport is the revolutionary developement of martial art gear. Prior to Sport TKD we wore hearvy 12-17oz duct canvas uniforms.... today drifit, ultralight, performance designed apparel are abundant. 

And I too agree, the scientific approach to athlete developement that some do has filtered its way to many schools for daily training and practice. I never did ladder drills growing up.... now they are a part of many classes for footwork and cardio developement of even the NON-sport TKD students....

So there is much to say on both sides...


----------



## Archtkd (Nov 23, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> One positive from the sport is the revolutionary developement of martial art gear. Prior to Sport TKD we wore hearvy 12-17oz duct canvas uniforms.... today drifit, ultralight, performance designed apparel are abundant.
> 
> And I too agree, the scientific approach to athlete developement that some do has filtered its way to many schools for daily training and practice. I never did ladder drills growing up.... now they are a part of many classes for footwork and cardio developement of even the NON-sport TKD students....
> 
> So there is much to say on both sides...



Great point on gear. I swear, I think, I once wore chest protectors that felt like they had bamboo strips inside.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 24, 2010)

Miguksaram,

My last post, now that I've read it again, may have come across as belittling or confrontational.  My apologies if so, as that was not my intent.

Daniel


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 24, 2010)

miguksaram said:


> Naturally my first question is who was your GM? Secondly there is a fine line between embelish and full out lying. There is no bias in that statement he made...He simply lied to you, or never studied his own history.
> 
> 
> Many instructors loved to give a romantic view of the origins of TKD. We have all heard the 2000 year old history story along with how the Hwarang practiced in hiding to develop what is now TKD. These were great stories to foreigners since our only exposure to martial arts was usually Samurai Sundays or the Kung Fu Hour on TV.


 
Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.

Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.

I have always taught TKD as an Indigenous Native Art Form because that was always his position. Sport TKD is new and a modern thing and a very small piece of the total art. Like an cooking you too much of anything will spoil the taste. The issues of Korean, Janpanes, Chinese and many issues are like so many seasoning not all right and not all wrong. But some times youth causes people to draw very hard lines of black and white, age will teach you not everything is as it seems. 

I am working some University researchers to see if we can confirm any history related to sport or physical competitions or challenges related to political posts or at least is there any conditions that would validate such an opinion. If I find that I will post it either way.


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 24, 2010)

Can anyone comment on who invented the first versions of the foam dipped sparring gear. Again it could be Urban Legend but I remeber people talking in the early days that GM Rhee introduced one of the first lines and made considerable money from that?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 24, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Can anyone comment on who invented the first versions of the foam dipped sparring gear. Again it could be Urban Legend but I remeber people talking in the early days that GM Rhee introduced one of the first lines and made considerable money from that?


If you are referring to Jhoon Rhee, I have heard that he introduced the foam dipped gear as well, but I do not know for certain.  I have also heard others credit him with the 'gold' or yellow belt.  Not sure if that is really accurate either.  He has done well for himself financially, though I certainly do not begrudge him.  One of his schools was an early and very positive experience with the martial arts for me.

The foam dipped gear that I am thinking of is unrelated to what is worn in WTF sport.  I remember being at a school when I was nineteen and we sparred using the foam hand and foot guards, a cup and a mouth piece.  It was enough to guard against any real serious injury, though that was still a possibility.  But you certainly felt hits more than with the hogu.

Daniel


----------



## Cirdan (Nov 25, 2010)

I wonder why the whole respect and sport vs art thing gets so blown up in TKD. Yep the olympic sport looks kind of silly but Karate and JJ fighting rules does not exactly reflect an all out fight either and certainly not self defense. Yet in these arts just about everybody agree that sports are a different world altogether.



Master Dan said:


> Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.
> 
> Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.


 
Hey we understand you Master. It is not like any of us would spew unfounded bs on a MA discussion board and have our teachers to back it up either.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Nov 25, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them ......................................
> 
> . He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.........................
> 
> ...


 To quibble with a few points:
1. If the art is to progress, then at least the better students should be more than the sum total of their instructor(s).  I tell my students that they should be better instrutors than I am becausethey had a better instructor than I had. This is not a slam on my instructor, instead it is a compliment because he was better than his instructors because he had a better instructor than he had.  That being said. I have been taught by some who I will never surpass due to their outstanding knowledge and abilities, and since I keep learning, I hope that at least during my lifetime my students will not surpass me in terms of knowledge and teaching ability. Sadly, for all of us the physicality wanes so if we stick around long enough the physical abilities of ou students should easily pass what we then possess. Whether they pass how we were at out prime is another matter. 

2. It would not sully your GMs name to post it if he is held in high esteem by his peers and some Keyboard commando rightly or wrongly questions what he allegedly said. I for one can chalk any inaccuracies in what he allegedly said to you allegedly not fully understanding him. 

I am really more interested from a historical perspective as to where he fits in based upon your claim of his seniority.


----------



## Master Dan (Nov 25, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> To quibble with a few points:
> 1. If the art is to progress, then at least the better students should be more than the sum total of their instructor(s). I tell my students that they should be better instrutors than I am becausethey had a better instructor than I had. This is not a slam on my instructor, instead it is a compliment because he was better than his instructors because he had a better instructor than he had. That being said. I have been taught by some who I will never surpass due to their outstanding knowledge and abilities, and since I keep learning, I hope that at least during my lifetime my students will not surpass me in terms of knowledge and teaching ability. Sadly, for all of us the physicality wanes so if we stick around long enough the physical abilities of ou students should easily pass what we then possess. Whether they pass how we were at out prime is another matter.
> 
> 2. It would not sully your GMs name to post it if he is held in high esteem by his peers and some Keyboard commando rightly or wrongly questions what he allegedly said. I for one can chalk any inaccuracies in what he allegedly said to you allegedly not fully understanding him.
> ...


----------



## terryl965 (Nov 25, 2010)

Justa question for Master Dam why is everything you get ask needs to be said by pm? I mean this is what this forum is for converstation and to get things out inthe open, not trying to be rude or anything but why be here posting if alot of questions need to be answered by a pm?


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 25, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Justa question for Master Dam why is everything you get ask needs to be said by pm? I mean this is what this forum is for converstation and to get things out inthe open, not trying to be rude or anything but why be here posting if alot of questions need to be answered by a pm?


On the one hand, I'd ask the very same question.  On the other, maybe going to PM is for the best.

Given that what he is being asked about (support for statements about a Mortal Kombat style  selection process for government officials in Korea, name of his GM, etc.) has little to nothing to do with sport TKD, I'd rather see it go to either PM or another thread.  

He obviously wants to keep his GM's name off of the main board but is willing to answer Master Weiss.  I can respect that.  

We have enough discussions over unsupportable statements regarding Korean MA history in the archives here.  Also enough heated debate about chi/ki/qi.

Daniel


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 27, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Miguksaram,
> 
> My last post, now that I've read it again, may have come across as belittling or confrontational. My apologies if so, as that was not my intent.
> 
> Daniel


You made me cry into my beer. hahaha...No worries.  I've known you long enough on this board that you rarely ever mean to belittle anyone in your posts.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 27, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> Everyone is the sum total of the master that first taught them and if that is what your original Dan or rank comes from they are more like your father and you a deciple in the old days. He died a year ago February and I would not care to soil his name by exposing his memory to such comments as above by dropping his name to you. He worked tirelessly his whole live for the globalization of TKD and was never one to just think of personal wealth he once said as we talked I am not rich in things but rich in people. All of the Senior GM's I know and meet have always talked of him with love and respect and many say they are junior to him. That is enough for me.
> 
> Given the rules I now understand for the forum discussions you seem to cross the line calling him a lier and I know all the other GM's would not take kindly to that behavior.


 
.  My condolences on your loss and I understand the whole aspect of the guy you got your first dan with is one who tends to be a big role model to you.  My instructor was the same way to me.  However, I learned through time that a lot of what he told me was either his exagerations or ignorance of facts.  That did not deminish his standing in my eyes at all.  With that said, I stand by my statement; if he told you that people in Korea used to have fights in order to determine who gained a political position the he either lied to you or he doesn't know his history



			
				Master Dan said:
			
		

> I have always taught TKD as an Indigenous Native Art Form because that was always his position.


  There is no indigenous native form of TKD...What you taught was shotokan karate, if you want to "indigenous".



			
				Master Dan said:
			
		

> Sport TKD is new and a modern thing and a very small piece of the total art.


While I agree it is a small aspect of TKD, it is not new.  Sport aspect of TKD has been around almost as long as TKD has functioned as an art.  



			
				Master Dan said:
			
		

> Like an cooking you too much of anything will spoil the taste. The issues of Korean, Janpanes, Chinese and many issues are like so many seasoning not all right and not all wrong. But some times youth causes people to draw very hard lines of black and white, age will teach you not everything is as it seems.



It has nothing to do with youth drawing hard lines.  In this case it has to do with the head chefs saying that the receipe is some ancient indigenous secret when in fact they grabbed it from their neighbors next door.  Or in your case the chef is saying that they had to have a cook off in order to determine who was going to make the soup.

I know you are a senior but all things said and done, I have just 10 years less in the arts than you have.  So don't worry my youth is not so young.



			
				Master Dan said:
			
		

> I am working some University researchers to see if we can confirm any history related to sport or physical competitions or challenges related to political posts or at least is there any conditions that would validate such an opinion. If I find that I will post it either way.


Do you know which area of Korean history you are going to examine?  I would recommend around 238 BCE...this is the start of the Buyeo.  Around that time is when Korea was divided up into specific tribes or confederacies.  Else you will want to look at around 57 BCE which is when they established what is now known as the 3 Kingdoms of Korea.


----------



## miguksaram (Nov 27, 2010)

Earl Weiss said:


> 2. It would not sully your GMs name to post it if he is held in high esteem by his peers and some Keyboard commando rightly or wrongly questions what he allegedly said. I for one can chalk any inaccuracies in what he allegedly said to you allegedly not fully understanding him.


I am more of keyboard ninja than commando.


----------



## Archtkd (Feb 13, 2011)

Master Dan said:


> I am working some University researchers to see if we can confirm any history related to sport or physical competitions or challenges related to political posts or at least is there any conditions that would validate such an opinion. If I find that I will post it either way.


 
Kindly give us a progress report on your research concerning political ascension in Korea through mortal combat.


----------



## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 14, 2011)

Archtkd said:


> Kindly give us a progress report on your research concerning political ascension in Korea through mortal combat.


If he does provied verifiable proof, would that not be ...

*Flawless victory*

?


Daniel


----------



## punisher73 (Feb 14, 2011)

Am I the only one who kind of regards this topic in relation to rank and sport kind of ironic?

I mean, the whole idea of rank came from sports rankings and was used as a "handicap" system like golf for competitors.

In a "traditional" karate dojo in Japan or Okinawa, it is not unusual to have kids as blackbelts and getting a blackbelt in a year or two.  Again, Sho-Dan literally means, "low rank".  It was used to distinguish someone as ready to start learning the art because they had the basics down.

It is only our perceptions of what a BB should be that cloud the issue.  After the martial arts were exported to other countries more emphasis was placed on the blackbelt.  Most of the teachers were GI's that only had a year or two of training anyways before they came back to the US.  They had no formal training as how to train and teach students, they just did the best they could.  They also stretched out the process a lot longer than it took them to reach the same goal.  Weed out people and make a blackbelt a rarity, and it seems alot more impressive to outsiders, than a rank that is given to most people in their countries of origin. Think about it, you want to show how your blackbelts are the toughest around?  Make it three times as long as someone from a different art.  If in a traditional dojo it takes 2-3 years, we make ours wait 5-7 years.  Well, now they have twice as much experience so of course they should be better.  5-7 years not enough, now lets make it at least a 10 year process so we can be sure that our blackbelts are never beaten.

So what does this have to do with respect and the sport of TKD?  Why do we expect students to all have respect when the whole process is based on being better than everyone else?  How do you teach humility when your whole grading system is based on "us" being the best?  No matter WHAT your endeavor is, when you place the focus on winning vs. training you will have disrespect among the people.

Look at any professional sport, they don't care what a person's integrity is, they only want their skill.  So, even though the person is a criminal and would be fired if they had a regular job, the offense is excused because they are a good athlete and get wins, which means more money for the owners.

Now bad behavior is encouraged in sports because it builds rivalries and sells more tickets.  When I was a kid, it used to be Team X vs. Team Y and they would have a rivalry.  Now, when you watch pro sports its, John Smith, and Team X vs. John Johnson, and Team Y.  The team and teamwork is secondary to being a superstar.  Do we really think that when all of society puts emphasis on this that our kids will be any different, or adults new to the sport of TKD will be any different?  Nope.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 14, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> In a "traditional" karate dojo in Japan or Okinawa, it is not unusual to have kids as blackbelts and getting a blackbelt in a year or two.  Again, Sho-Dan literally means, "low rank".  It was used to distinguish someone as ready to start learning the art because they had the basics down.



Do you have a specific example in mind?  

I've been researching Goju-ryu karate curricula recently, and I've been told directly in correspondence with the Jundokan in Okinawa that the expectation for their shodan is generally 4-6 years.  They also noted that it was not seen as a bad thing to take longer if needed.  They make no distinction between children and adults.

I personally believe the karate world is centering on the idea of 5 years as the expected time to achieve shodan in a full system complete with weapons study.  Not sure whether this was first a Western idea or not, but I think it has made its way back to the source and has been embraced there.


----------



## punisher73 (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Do you have a specific example in mind?
> 
> I've been researching Goju-ryu karate curricula recently, and I've been told directly in correspondence with the Jundokan in Okinawa that the expectation for their shodan is generally 4-6 years. They also noted that it was not seen as a bad thing to take longer if needed. They make no distinction between children and adults.
> 
> I personally believe the karate world is centering on the idea of 5 years as the expected time to achieve shodan in a full system complete with weapons study. Not sure whether this was first a Western idea or not, but I think it has made its way back to the source and has been embraced there.


 
The JKA has a program for college students to achieve BB in a year.  It designed the curriculum around how long the person is in college and how many hours a day they can train.  Same with many of the traditional arts when they first started teaching the GI's.

I would agree that the larger organizations (even of traditional arts) have fallen in line with the average time for blackbelt.  Goju-Ryu, was among the first okinawan styles to switch over to the more japanese version of ranking/structure.  I think that time has gone on, standards are different as to what the rank of sho-dan means.  Now, it comes with an expectation of something.

As an example, I know of one okinawan art (not blaming the art, or saying anything bad, just using it as an example of how things changed) that used to take about 18 months to learn the requirements up to bb, now there are schools and organizations that require 5-7 years to learn the exact same material to reach bb in this style.  Uechi-Ryu is another one that on average can take about 2-3 years to learn and achieve BB, and in other schools or organizations it takes double that.

While giving examples, I realize that I am thinking more of the earlier ranking systems (60's and 70's) before all of the big organizations came in and stretched out the requirements to achieve BB.  That would be a whole different thread, as to why it takes longer now.


----------



## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I personally believe the karate world is centering on the idea of 5 years as the expected time to achieve shodan in a full system complete with weapons study.  Not sure whether this was first a Western idea or not, but I think it has made its way back to the source and has been embraced there.




If it takes five years for 1st Dan, how long does it take for the rest of the dans? Also, why would you issue your students a Taekwondo dan when it seems that your interest is focused mainly on Okinawan martial arts? Why not give them a dan in Goju Ryu, from your teacher?


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> If it takes five years for 1st Dan, how long does it take for the rest of the dans? Also, why would you issue your students a Taekwondo dan when it seems that your interest is focused mainly on Okinawan martial arts? Why not give them a dan in Goju Ryu, from your teacher?




It varies depending on teacher and style.  It took me another 7 years after shodan to achieve nidan and then a short 3 years more to take sandan.  Then another 3-4 for yondan.  I daresay this is very subjective/individual as my teacher is not part of any group that has standardized requirements of time in grade and such.

As for your second question, I actually teach martial arts in 5 different venues.  I teach Goju-ryu at my private dojo and I do award rank in Goju there.  I also teach TKD (influenced by karate and aikido) at my church along with some other instructors outside of my line, although I am the head instructor.


----------



## puunui (Feb 14, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> As for your second question, I actually teach martial arts in 5 different venues.  I teach Goju-ryu at my private dojo and I do award rank in Goju there.  I also teach TKD (influenced by karate and aikido) at my church along with some other instructors outside of my line, although I am the head instructor.



Any of the taekwondo practitioners at your school practice the Taeguek poomsae? Also what lineage of Aikido do you come from? My cousin called me this weekend and told me the 3rd Aikido Doshu is coming to give a seminar next week.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 14, 2011)

puunui said:


> Any of the taekwondo practitioners at your school practice the Taeguek poomsae? Also what lineage of Aikido do you come from? My cousin called me this weekend and told me the 3rd Aikido Doshu is coming to give a seminar next week.



No.  We do the Chang Hon forms, albeit not according to the last directions General Choi left.  

I am Aikikai, so I do regard Ueshiba Doshu as the head of my style.  My lineage runs through Yamada Shihan.  Although to be sure, my wife and I have friends in many of the 'splinter' groups and we do not have a problem sharing the mat with them.


----------



## andyjeffries (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> It varies depending on teacher and style.  It took me another 7 years after shodan to achieve nidan and then a short 3 years more to take sandan.  Then another 3-4 for yondan.  I daresay this is very subjective/individual as my teacher is not part of any group that has standardized requirements of time in grade and such.
> 
> As for your second question, I actually teach martial arts in 5 different venues.  I teach Goju-ryu at my private dojo and I do award rank in Goju there.  I also teach TKD (influenced by karate and aikido) at my church along with some other instructors outside of my line, although I am the head instructor.



Just out of interest (as you mentioned it) - I assume Yondan is 4th Dan?  Also what grade are you in Taekwondo?

It's not that important but I just wondered as you posted your grade in Karate to see if you are equal, lower or higher in Taekwondo...

Feel free to PM if you don't want it publicly known.


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

Yes, yondan = 4th.

And I'm not bothered by sharing my various ranks.  I have a 2nd dan in Jhoon Rhee TKD.  I have not sought advancement in that system in decades, although to be fair there is not much new material after black belt as my TKD teacher taught it.  It a matter of learning a few new forms at each level and only at the performance level at that.

I am interested in buying one of my friend's schools from him, and if I do I would resume studying TKD under him.


----------



## miguksaram (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> If it takes five years for 1st Dan, how long does it take for the rest of the dans? Also, why would you issue your students a Taekwondo dan when it seems that your interest is focused mainly on Okinawan martial arts? Why not give them a dan in Goju Ryu, from your teacher?



I am not sure how the rest of the Karate world does it but we usually follow this criteria for ours:
1st dan - We don't have a set time to achieve...however, the average has been about 4-5 years, if you started fresh from white belt with no experience in martial arts.

2nd dan - Usually 1 -2 years based on attending classes, helping the school, etc.

3rd dan -  Minimum 3 years at 2nd dan plus attending classes, helping the school, etc.

4th dan - Minimum 4 years at 3rd dan plus helping the school, etc.

5th dan - Minimum 5 years at 4th dan

6th dan - Minimum 6 years at 5th dan

Not sure about the 7th-up.


----------



## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I am Aikikai, so I do regard Ueshiba Doshu as the head of my style.  My lineage runs through Yamada Shihan.  Although to be sure, my wife and I have friends in many of the 'splinter' groups and we do not have a problem sharing the mat with them.



Yamada Shihan and the third Doshu are coming to Hawaii for a seminar this weekend to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Ueshiba Sensei's visit. 

http://www.aikidohawaii2011.org/


----------



## dancingalone (Feb 15, 2011)

puunui said:


> Yamada Shihan and the third Doshu are coming to Hawaii for a seminar this weekend to celebrate the 50th anniversary of Ueshiba Sensei's visit.
> 
> http://www.aikidohawaii2011.org/



Sounds like fun.  I usually am able to see Yamada Shihan twice a year, but generally it's when I travel to the East Coast.

As a hapkido man, do you practice much with aikido-ka?


----------



## TKD Scotland (Feb 15, 2011)

I think the globalisation of the sport is a good thing for Taekwon-do. Although there's no doubt the respect factor has diluted(Look at Angel Matos in the 2008 olympics) but instructors do try to keep respect for the art. From day one I was always taught to bow to those of a higher grade, shake hands after a fight, call instructors "Sir" or "Miss" and never questions umpires.


----------



## puunui (Feb 15, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> As a hapkido man, do you practice much with aikido-ka?



Not really. If I studied Aikido, I would just do what they did in class like how they did it, and perhaps on my own time I would blend the arts together as an evolution of my Hapkido. My original Hapkido teacher was a student of GM MYONG Jae Nam, so there was some Aikido influence already. I tend to emphasize smoothness and flowing more than some of my juniors, who are more into manhandling and forcing.


----------

