# The SIRT Firearm Training Simulator



## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 25, 2015)

Thanks to Tgace here on MartialTalk I jumped in and have been utilizing the SIRT training simulator for some time now.  I have to say it has improved my ability to train with dry fire, reloads and more.  I started teaching my wife on it and now she enjoys going to the range with me. I cannot recommend it enough!

Here is a write up on my blog:

The Instinctive Edge


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## Argus (Oct 28, 2015)

I've always wondered if these are worth it.

I actually use "Gas Blowback" Airsoft replicas for this sort of training in my apartment. There is a lot of junk, of course, but if you know what you're looking for you can find some very realistic replicas that function just as a real fire-arm - you can actuate the slide to chamber the initial round, or on reloads, and the slide blows back as you discharge a round. Everything else is generally fully functional as well - safeties, slide release, magazine release, etc. It's a great tool for getting familiar with a weapon. You can even have, for instance, that satisfying result of inadvertently actuating slide-mounted safeties when you rack the slide to clear a jam or reload, and then wonder why your weapon doesn't go bang!

The only drawback to using Airsoft replicas for this purpose is that the slide spring, and (sometimes) the trigger spring are both far less stiff when compared to the real thing. Also, because the gas which powers the weapon is stored in the magazine, and not individual shells (in fact, the rounds are not contained by any shell, which means you can have double feeds if you rack the slide with a round already chambered, as racking the slide does not generally eject the previous round - not on most models, at least), the weapon will only function if the magazine is inserted.

They are overall great tools to build muscle-memory and work on trigger control with, though. And if you're fine with tinkering around, you can usually get after-market parts such as stiffer springs to give you, for instance, a stiffer trigger more akin to the real weapon.

So, as much as I like where that product is going, I do wonder: what does it offer that neither an airsoft replica, nor dry-fire practice with the actual fire-arm do? I guess a trigger that better approximates the feel of the real weapon is a huge plus, but the fact that the slide and other features do not function is a bit of a draw back. I do like the laser, though - as it allows for quieter practice. Shooting even a gas-blowback airsoft replica can still be kind of loud in an apartment.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Argus said:


> I've always wondered if these are worth it.
> 
> I actually use "Gas Blowback" Airsoft replicas for this sort of training in my apartment. There is a lot of junk, of course, but if you know what you're looking for you can find some very realistic replicas that function just as a real fire-arm - you can actuate the slide to chamber the initial round, or on reloads, and the slide blows back as you discharge a round. Everything else is generally fully functional as well - safeties, slide release, magazine release, etc. It's a great tool for getting familiar with a weapon. You can even have, for instance, that satisfying result of inadvertently actuating slide-mounted safeties when you rack the slide to clear a jam or reload, and then wonder why your weapon doesn't go bang!
> 
> ...



So why not just do dry fire practice with the actual weapon? That's what we do.
I have *these* in all the calibers I own. The targets work well for accuracy, and they have a "reaction time" mode, in which they beep at a random interval, after which you have like 2 seconds to draw and shoot the target.
We also make a game out of watching _*The Walking Dead*_. Points for every zombie shot. Lose points if you shoot a person.
The only thing lacking is recoil, but nothing other than a trip to the range is going to provide that.


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## Argus (Oct 28, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> So why not just do dry fire practice with the actual weapon? That's what we do.
> I have *these* in all the calibers I own. The targets work well for accuracy, and they have a "reaction time" mode, in which they beep at a random interval, after which you have like 2 seconds to draw and shoot the target.
> We also make a game out of watching _*The Walking Dead*_. Points for every zombie shot. Lose points if you shoot a person.
> The only thing lacking is recoil, but nothing other than a trip to the range is going to provide that.



Oh, hey! I didn't know they made those. That's the best of all worlds.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

Laserlyte makes a good product as well.  Not as nice, sturdy or workable as the SIRT but still very, very doable.

Dry firing training only with your firearm is good just not as good as working with a SIRT do to the fact of always having to re-engage the slide to fire.  Still, I have done that for years and would recommend that until someone has the funds to save up for a SIRT. 

I also really like airsoft and train with them regularly as well Argus.  What I don't like about airsoft is the clean up after the fact.  Still airsoft is particularly great for some force on force training. 

What really sets the SIRT apart is their manufacturing.  The resetting trigger, removable magazine, etc.  It also is patterned after a Glock which is perfrect for a Glock owner like myself.  *It really is a fantastic training tool!


Hopefully tgace will stop by and give his opinion.  *He turned me onto the SIRT and I have not been disappointed.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Laserlyte makes a good product as well.  Not as nice, sturdy or workable as the SIRT but still very, very doable.
> 
> Dry firing training only with your firearm is good just not as good as working with a SIRT do to the fact of always having to re-engage the slide to fire.  Still, I have done that for years and would recommend that until someone has the funds to save up for a SIRT.



Hammer fired handguns do not need the slide reset. And there are some striker fired handguns (the Taurus PT111 springs to mind) do not, either.
As for Glocks, there is _*THIS*_, that makes it a non-issue there, too. And dry fire mags are readily available.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the SIRT. I'm merely pointing out that some of the issues you bring up don't really exist, or are easily overcome.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

Yeah but that is $199 on top of an insert running around what $159 plus the cost of dry fire magazines.  The SIRT which does all of that is only $239 with two magazines.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

I get it that if you have already invested in a laserlyte that you probably would not want to change.  That is cool.  It is a good product.  Just not as good as the SIRT.  Still, it is a good product!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Yeah but that is $199 on top of an insert running around what $159 plus the cost of dry fire magazines.  The SIRT which does all of that is only $239 with two magazines.



The Laserlyte cartridge is $99. You can get *THIS* for $99 as well. So instead of only practicing with the G17 (which is what the SIRT mimics) I can practice with ANY of my glocks. Using the same holsters they're carried in. Leaving the silencer on the G41 so the balance doesn't change. With the Pyramid Triggers I've installed (which alters takeup, pull, and reset). With the TruGlo sights I've installed. With a working slide, so you can practice clearing misfires.
And it's cheaper than the SIRT.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> I get it that if you have already invested in a laserlyte that you probably would not want to change.  That is cool.  It is a good product.  Just not as good as the SIRT.  Still, it is a good product!



I don't disagree that it's a good product. I don't think it's a _*better*_ product by any means, though.
I think it's best use would be in a classroom, when students might not even have bought their own weapons yet.
Once you have your own weapons, I think it's best to practice with them. Especially if they've been tweaked in any way.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

*Well, having seen the laserlyte* and worked with one a bit The SIRT is a better product but that is open to opinion. 

As to the SIRT it mimics one of my firearms exactly, fits in my holsters, weights the same, etc.  Plus I do not have to do anything to work with it, teach with it while training, etc.  It is ready to go exactly when I am ready to go.  No doing to anything extra, just pick it up and practice!  I have the SIRT insert for the AR and frankly while I like it I don't necessarily like that I have to break down the AR every time I want to use it.  Not having to do that is an incredible benefit that frankly any insert cannot meet and while it is not a huge deal it is a bit of a pain in the ***.  With the SIRT handgun from Next Level Training I don't need to do that.  *It is ready to go when I am ready to go!*

We can argue back and forth and you can be happy with what you have and I can be thrilled with the SIRT.  In the end it comes down to a matter of opinion. (as with almost anything in the firearm world, lol)  The bottom line is getting lots of extra practice and the SIRT allows you to do that!  Plus I only have one company to deal with, get my product etc.

*DD I get you like what you have and that is cool!*  However, since laserlyte came out there have been improvements in this area and that is where SIRT comes in.  However, in the end that is just my opinion and you are of course entitled to yours!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

I must say that I like your walking dead game.  Going to have to play that myself!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *Well, having seen the laserlyte* and worked with one a bit The SIRT is a better product but that is open to opinion.



Of course it is. Mine just happens to be right. 



Brian R. VanCise said:


> As to the SIRT it mimics one of my firearms exactly, fits in my holsters, weights the same, etc.



But is the G17 the only gun you fire? I like mine, but it's not my most common carry choice.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Plus I do not have to do anything to work with it, teach with it while training, etc.  It is ready to go exactly when I am ready to go.  No doing to anything extra, just pick it up and practice!  I have the SIRT insert for the AR and frankly while I like it I don't necessarily like that I have to break down the AR every time I want to use it.  Not having to do that is an incredible benefit that frankly any insert cannot meet and while it is not a huge deal it is a bit of a pain in the ***.  With the SIRT handgun from Next Level Training I don't need to do that.  *It is ready to go when I am ready to go!*



Well, I don't generally shoot my Hornady Critical Defense rounds at the range, so if I'm shooting the gun I'm carrying, I have to drop the mag, eject the round, and reload with hardball. If I'm shooting something other than what's on my hip, I just pop in a magazine and go. For dry fire, it's the same, except I have to drop in ONE round. Not a particularly onerous chore.

[EDIT] I agree completely that it's an ideal system for the classroom. In such a setting, it is a great idea to use something that isn't a real weapon.



Brian R. VanCise said:


> However, since laserlyte came out there have been improvements in this area and that is where SIRT comes in.



You haven't really shown any convincing reason to think that it's really better than any of the other options. While there is good stuff to be said about the SIRT, there are certainly drawbacks as well.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I must say that I like your walking dead game.  Going to have to play that myself!



It's fun! It's Sues' favorite show, so we never miss it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

DD I really don't want to buy a laser insert ranging from $99 to $159, two dry fire resetting trigger magazines for $99 each and or a laser insert  $99 to $159 plus resetting trigger $199 and then two dry fire magazines for every firearm that I own.  All of which would be a lot more than one SIRT.  *That is in my opinion an incredible waste of time and or resources in my opinion.*  I want one simple excellently made dry fire system for my handgun training and the SIRT fills this need and is practical for it and affordable.  It is ready to go at a moments notice, no messing around, etc.  I don't have to store it in my locked firearm safe, etc.  It is practical, ready to go and affordable.  Plus it frankly is better made. 

I typically carry a Glock 22, some times a Glock 17 which feels almost identical to the SIRT and it fits my AlienGear holsters perfectly.  Bottom line for a "one system" dry firing training firearm the SIRT is simply setting a new standard!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 28, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's fun! It's Sues' favorite show, so we never miss it.



Yeah, we never miss it either as well.  Great show with awesome actors in it!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 28, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> DD I really don't want to buy a laser insert ranging from $99 to $159, two dry fire resetting trigger magazines for $99 each and or a laser insert  $99 to $159 plus resetting trigger $199 and then two dry fire magazines for every firearm that I own.  All of which would be a lot more than one SIRT.



And completely unnecessary... The dryfire mag that fits the Glock 17 will also fit the 19. And the 26. And the 34, for that matter. 

If you're happy getting dry fire practice with only one gun, then it certainly sounds like the SIRT is a great choice. I'd prefer to be able to practice with all of my carry guns. 
I'd actually recommend the dryfire mag over the resetting trigger, as far as that goes, because the resetting trigger is simply not going to feel the same as my Pyramid triggers. It's going to feel like a stock Glock trigger.
If you have nothing at all, then the Laserlyte insert plus a couple mags will be slightly more than the SIRT. But the tradeoff is that you get to practice with YOUR gun, with all the tweaks you've made. If your gun is, like mine, a Glock frame and slide combined with a bunch of aftermarket parts, then this becomes very significant.
If you're in in a classroom, or shooting a stock G17 pretty much exclusively, then the SIRT may well be the best option.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 29, 2015)

I see your points DD.  Since I do not make a lot of tweeks to my guns then I am good to go with the SIRT.  I can see why you would want to work with your Pyramid Triggers that you have installed on your glock that makes perfect sense for you.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 29, 2015)

In another thread I would love to here about your thoughts on the Pyramid Trigger and why you decided to go that way!


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 29, 2015)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> In another thread I would love to here about your thoughts on the Pyramid Trigger and why you decided to go that way!



I started a thread some time ago about Glock triggers *HERE*, but it didn't trigger (see what I did there?) any discussion...


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## txstonewall (Oct 21, 2021)

Reading through this thread, dry fire aids are a great way to sharpen diminishing skills and track progress. In the last few years there has been some new tools enter the market. Check out Mantis with their different tools for all kinds of firearms.








						MantisX Model Comparison
					

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						Blackbeard: the auto-resetting trigger system for AR-15
					

NEW: BLACKBEARD X, the original Blackbeard, but now with integrated Mantis X for real-time performance feedback analysis! See details here. You want to be able to do dry fire practice with your AR-15 without having to run the charging handle between shots.  An auto-resetting trigger sounds like...




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						Laser Academy Training Kit - Standard
					

Standard Kit contains: Full Access* code to Mantis Laser Academy ($99 value) Pink Rhino laser (select caliber) Complete set of 5"x7" Laser Academy Smart Targets Complete set of 8"x11" Laser Academy Smart Targets Mini tripod and smartphone holder Large tripod and smartphone holder Laser cartridge...




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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Just want to add, whatever way you practice, practice shooting with both hands. You might use more bullets, but remember if you shoot behind any barricade, it can be on either side of you, eg. if you only shoot with right hand and the barricade is on your right side, you literally have to expose your whole body to shoot. You can shoot behind the barricade if you can shoot with your left hand.

To me, the best way is to actually go to the range and shoot a lot. It's expensive, but that's the true way to learn how to handle the gun. You shoot enough, you'll find your best way to grip.


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

That´s what i like about the US... you can own a Bazooka  
But seriously you´ve got great possibilities to shoot at numerous clubs.
can also fire many types of weapons. This was my baby back in the day.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So why not just do dry fire practice with the actual weapon? That's what we do.
> I have *these* in all the calibers I own. The targets work well for accuracy, and they have a "reaction time" mode, in which they beep at a random interval, after which you have like 2 seconds to draw and shoot the target.
> We also make a game out of watching _*The Walking Dead*_. Points for every zombie shot. Lose points if you shoot a person.
> The only thing lacking is recoil, but nothing other than a trip to the range is going to provide that.



Because you can shoot people with airsoft guns.


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

not too sure how this could happen but any time you get a weapon *you *should check it yourself.








						Alec Baldwin kills woman by firing prop gun on film set of Rust
					

Cinematographer Halyna Hutchins airlifted to hospital, where she died, while director Joel Souza also injured




					www.theguardian.com


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Because you can shoot people with airsoft guns.


It's a completely different thing. I've been shooting for many years, shooting every weekend 4 hours each time with my wife for over 5 years. It's nothing like shooting the real thing. All the anticipation of trigger pull practice and all is nothing like real shooting.

They kept talking about to check and practice trigger pull so you don't dip the barrel when pulling the trigger. I did that, but when I shoot real gun and when I forgot to count and pull the trigger on the empty chamber, I dipped the gun when pulling. Practice did not help. BUT more importantly, I put over 90% into the center black on the target at 25 yards consistently(at least at the time) and repeatedly. So.......anticipation is really NOT an issue!!

In the video in post #1 in SIRT site, the guy pointed the lazer gun at the target and hold the trigger down. You can see the lazer dot moving all over the target ( with finger holding the trigger still, not keep pulling). That's not good at all. He couldn't even hold his hand still!!! The target is very close like 5 yards, one should be able to do better, a lot better.

Go shoot the real thing.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Another thing I want to point out. It is MY opinion that people should aim before pulling the trigger even if you have very little time to aim. Do not just go bang bang bang bang like in the movie without aiming. You waste bullets and more importantly, might shoot innocent bystanders.

I came from the older days when revolvers are still popular, you only have 5 or 6 rounds. You make your bullets count, not wasting it. Now you have semi auto that can hold 17 rounds, people get into bad habit of blind shooting. That to me is not a good habit.

Also, if you carry a gun for self defense, you don't carry a Glock that is bulky. Those small semi can only carry like 6 to 7 rounds, you cannot afford to waste bullets. In Calif, you are limited to 10 rounds mag, you don't get 17 rounds also.

Also, for women particular older ones, before buying a semi auto, make sure she can rack the slide. My wife cannot rack the slide no matter what tricks I showed her. She has to stuck with revolvers which is 5 to 6 rounds only. Remember, the smaller the semi auto gun, the stronger the recoil spring has to be( that's how it is). The harder it is to rack the slide. So make sure you can rack the slide before buying the gun. I just bought a Glock 36( small one with only 10 rounds), it's harder to rack than my big S&W659. I have to practice myself to rack the slide.

Lastly, revolver is NOT that bad when size matter. I really like the Ruger LCR revolver. I actually checked the weight and compare with some of the small semi auto, it's lighter, 5 rounds vs 6 rounds of the small semi autos. It is very compatible. Most important, small semi auto is* NOT* as reliable as the larger ones like Glock. They jam. Nothing is worst than in life or death situation, the gun jams!!! Besides, you can get speed loaders for revolvers also. Also, revolver is double action, you just pull the trigger and it will fire. For semi autos, you have to load the chamber before you can do that. That can be dangerous. There are not too many small true double action semi auto that you can load the chamber safely. Those strike fire ones like Glock is not true double action.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Also, if you carry a gun for self defense, you don't carry a Glock that is bulky. Those small semi can only carry like 6 to 7 rounds, you cannot afford to waste bullets. In Calif, you are limited to 10 rounds mag, you don't get 17 rounds also.


Glocks are not bulky.


Alan0354 said:


> Lastly, revolver is NOT that bad when size matter. I really like the Ruger LCR revolver. I actually checked the weight and compare with some of the small semi auto, it's lighter, 5 rounds vs 6 rounds of the small semi autos. It is very compatible. Most important, small semi auto is* NOT* as reliable as the larger ones like Glock. They jam. Nothing is worst than in life or death situation, the gun jams!!! Besides, you can get speed loaders for revolvers also. Also, revolver is double action, you just pull the trigger and it will fire. For semi autos, you have to load the chamber before you can do that. That can be dangerous. There are not too many small true double action semi auto that you can load the chamber safely. Those strike fire ones like Glock is not true double action.


Glocks are not inherently larger, nor are larger guns always Glocks. 
Your statement that smaller semi-autos are inherently less reliable is, in my experience, utter nonsense. I routinely carry a Glock 19. My wife prefers the 26. We own everything from the tiny little 42 and 43 to a suppressed extended slide 41. We also own 1911s in single and double stack variants. Sig-Sauer, Ruger, Para-Ordnance, Bersa, Beretta, Taurus... we have them all. The difference in reliability is non-existent. All of our guns have had thousands of rounds run through them without issue.
Your comment about unavailability of double action semi-autos is also completely wrong. Ruger, Beretta, Walther, Bersa, and others all sell semi-autos with safety/decockers.


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

Talking of stoppages on any weapon, even a magazine can cause it. Make sure your mags are cleaned too.


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> came from the older days when revolvers are still popular, you only have 5 or 6 rounds. You make your bullets count, not wasting it.


 a Revolver is definitely less likely to have a stoppage. 




Dirty Dog said:


> We also own 1911s in single and double stack variants. Sig-Sauer, Ruger, Para-Ordnance, Bersa, Beretta, Taurus... we have them all


Geeze...are you Dirty Harry? 😃


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> a Revolver is definitely less likely to have a stoppage.


This is completely incorrect.





__





						Semi-Automatic Pistols vs. Revolvers - Which is Better?
					

Semi-automatic pistols vs. revolvers - what's better for self-defense? The Lucky Gunner team challenges whether we're even asking the right questions



					www.luckygunner.com
				












						The Reliability of the Revolver vs. the Semi-Automatic Handgun
					

Most of us will never put either a revolver or semi-auto handgun through enough testing in our lifetime to break this dead-lock...




					www.ammoland.com
				








__





						A Critical Look at Revolver Accuracy and Reliability
					

Chris of the Lucky Gunner team takes a critical look at revolver accuracy and reliability while examining the firearm as a self-defense tool.



					www.luckygunner.com


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Glocks are not bulky.
> 
> Glocks are not inherently larger, nor are larger guns always Glocks.
> Your statement that smaller semi-autos are inherently less reliable is, in my experience, utter nonsense. I routinely carry a Glock 19. My wife prefers the 26. We own everything from the tiny little 42 and 43 to a suppressed extended slide 41. We also own 1911s in single and double stack variants. Sig-Sauer, Ruger, Para-Ordnance, Bersa, Beretta, Taurus... we have them all. The difference in reliability is non-existent. All of our guns have had thousands of rounds run through them without issue.
> Your comment about unavailability of double action semi-autos is also completely wrong. Ruger, Beretta, Walther, Bersa, and others all sell semi-autos with safety/decockers.


I am talking about the really small ones, Glock 19, 26 is NOT small in my book. I spent years conceal carry when I was young, it got really heavy. To me, small and light is like 14oz. When I talk small for conceal carry, I mean like Ruger LCP, Kimber, Seecamp type. We have a different definition of "small". Go on youtube, those really small ones are not all reliable. It's all on luck, some swear by it, some have problems.

You have less small true double action semi auto now. I am glad I bought a Wather PPK, it's not light, but at least it's slim. It's a true double action. I've been looking, if you have a 15oz to 17oz semi with true double action, let me know.

I wrote it wrong, I have a glock 26, not 36. It's big in my book!!! It's so thick it's not very carryable. Only like ruger LCP type I would consider carryable. I carry my Glock only if I anticipate trouble.

I have a few Beretta 92 .25ACP, it's very reliable, but small caliber. If you try looking for 9mm that is about 15oz, you will find it's hard to find a true reliable one. Go on youtube to LCP and some Kimber, it's NOT reliable. This is physics. The more powerful the rounds, the heavier the slide has to be. If you cut the weight, you have to put a stiffer recoil spring. Then the tolerance of the spring becomes very critical. Too light, it can be dangerous, too heavy, you might fail to cycle. That's why some people swear by Kimber, some trash it.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I am talking about the really small ones,


So, like the 42 and 43 that I also mentioned as being guns I own.


Alan0354 said:


> Glock 19, 26 is NOT small in my book.


It helps if we use standard definitions instead of making up our own. The 19 is a compact pistol. The 26 is a subcompact. Your book is irrelevant.


Alan0354 said:


> I spent years conceal carry when I was young, it got really heavy. To me, small and light is like 14oz. When I talk small for conceal carry, I mean like Ruger LCP, Kimber, Seecamp type. We have a different definition of "small". Go on youtube, those really small ones are not all reliable. It's all on luck, some swear by it, some have problems.


All of which I own, have owned, or have used extensively with friends. You're just flat out wrong.
There are certainly unreliable pistols, both revolver and semi-auto. That isn't because of the type of gun, it's because they're junk guns made by crap companies with no goal except to be as cheap as possible.


Alan0354 said:


> You have less small true double action semi auto now. I am glad I bought a Wather PPK, it's not light, but at least it's slim. It's a true double action. I've been looking, if you have a 15oz to 17oz semi with true double action, let me know.


Why on earth would you want a double action semi-auto?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> a Revolver is definitely less likely to have a stoppage.
> 
> 
> 
> Geeze...are you Dirty Harry? 😃


For really light and small guns, revolver still win out. I yet to find any semi auto that can beat the Ruger LCR. Just I already have 2 S&W model 36, heavier, but hard to find an excuse to buy the LCR!!!


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> So, like the 42 and 43 that I also mentioned as being guns I own.
> 
> It helps if we use standard definitions instead of making up our own. The 19 is a compact pistol. The 26 is a subcompact. Your book is irrelevant.
> 
> ...


I want double action on the first round. Cheap guns almost always bad, expensive doesn't guaranty it's good. I do gun smithing, most of the semi auto guns need to be worked on to get it reliable ( few hundred rounds of weaker bullets without a single jam). My PPK, Colt Gold Cup .45 and S&W 659 ALL had to be worked on before it's ultra reliable. That include polishing the feed ramps, the ejector port and modify the extractors. I do accurizing too. I accurized my Gold Cup for competition.

I cannot comment on 42 as I did not own it.

That's your definition of small, to me, small is like 15oz or below and has to be slim. You conceal carry a lot for years? I did, that's why I know the importance of "small". I even went to the Freedom Arm .22magnum micro revolvers towards the end. Don't laugh, it's very powerful for the size, I'll take a 22magnum over .32ACP.

I actually chronograph the Freedom Arm 22mag in 1" and 1 3/4". The 1" is 1,100fps and the 1 3/4" is 1,300fps. Those are 4oz pistol, I can carry 2 for 8 rounds!!!

Now, this does NOT translate to North America Arms. That 3" I had only made 1,000fps. Tolerance of Freedom Arms are VERY tight. the gap between barrel and cylinder is very tight, less gas escape. I think that's the reason of the high velocity. Too bad Freedom Arms doesn't make those small ones anymore.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> For really light and small guns, revolver still win out. I yet to find any semi auto that can beat the Ruger LCR. Just I already have 2 S&W model 36, heavier, but hard to find an excuse to buy the LCR!!!


More nonsense. The Ruger LCR 9mm is a 17.2oz gun. The Glock 43 is 17.99 A trivial difference.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I want double action on the first round.


But why? There is no advantage to be had by making your first round harder to fire accurately.


Alan0354 said:


> Cheap guns almost always bad, expensive doesn't guaranty it's good. I do gun smithing, most of the semi auto guns need to be worked on to get it reliable


In a word, horsecrap. I have never had any issue with any of the guns I've bought, right out of the box.



Alan0354 said:


> ( few hundred rounds of weaker bullets without a single jam). My PPK, Colt Gold Cup .45 and S&W 659 ALL had to be worked on before it's ultra reliable. That include polishing the feed ramps, the ejector port and modify the extractors. I do accurizing too. I use my Gold Cup for competition.


More horsecrap. Every gun I own has been able to put 3 rounds through a single hole in aimed fire and 100 rounds through the 9 ring rapid fire. Right out of the box.


Alan0354 said:


> That's your definition of small,


It's not MY definition, it's the industries definition.


Alan0354 said:


> to me, small is like 15oz or below and has to be slim. You conceal carry a lot for years?


Only every day for the last 25 years or so.


Alan0354 said:


> I did, that's why I know the importance of "small". I even went to the Freedom Arm .22magnum micro revolvers towards the end. Don't laugh, it's very powerful for the size, I'll take a 22magnum over .32ACP.


I wouldn't take either. Rimfire ammo is notoriously unreliable. And useless.


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2021)

caped crusader said:


> not too sure how this could happen but any time you get a weapon *you *should check it yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is NO excuse for this anymore. So tragic.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> But why? There is no advantage to be had by making your first round harder to fire accurately.
> For safety,
> In a word, horsecrap. I have never had any issue with any of the guns I've bought, right out of the box.
> You must be awfully lucky.
> ...


I'd take the 22mag any time of the day than 32. I never have a miss fire with tens of thousands rounds of rim fire ammo. I actually had a miss fire with the 25ACP.

You are the moderator, can you reply with a little respect. Are we supposed to be civilized or just because you are the moderator, you can do that? I think I have been very respectful in talking. can we be more civilized? I am NOT a novice, I put tens of thousands of rounds through the years and I do own over 20 guns also, and I do gun smithing. Please don't talk to me like I don't know anything. You have a different opinion, I respect that.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I'd take the 22mag any time of the day than 32. I never have a miss fire with tens of thousands rounds. I actually had a miss fire with the 25ACP.
> 
> You are the moderator, can you reply with a little respect. Are we supposed to be civilized or just because you are the moderator, you can do that? I think I have been very respectful in talking. can we be more civilized? I am NOT a novice, I put tens of thousands of rounds through the years and I do own over 20 guns also, and I do gun smithing. Please don't talk to me like I don't know anything. You have a different opinion, I respect that.


It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of using standard definitions and actual facts. 
Feel free to post your opinions. But when you post things that are demonstrably false, that's no longer a matter of opinion. And if it's crap, it'll be called crap.


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## drop bear (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> It's a completely different thing. I've been shooting for many years, shooting every weekend 4 hours each time with my wife for over 5 years. It's nothing like shooting the real thing. All the anticipation of trigger pull practice and all is nothing like real shooting.



Exactly.  There is nothing that compares to shooting real people.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's not a matter of opinion. It's a matter of using standard definitions and actual facts. You claim that semi-auto pistols are not reliable. That's crap. You re-define words instead of using the accepted definitions. That's also crap.


I did not said semi auto are not reliable, I said you have to make it reliable in a lot of case. I test my guns with the worst ammo. OF CAUSE, if I use good rounds like Federal hollow points that has a more rounded tip, it's very reliable. BUT that does NOT tell you how much tolerance you have. I use the very weak reload, then I have all sort of FTF and FTE. The shell barely jump out. then I have to work on the feed ramp, extractor, ejector and even polish the ejector port to make it totally reliable. Then when I use back the Federal rounds, it eject beautifully and casing jump very far away.

We have a DIFFERENT standard of RELIABILITY. I am talking about perfection.

Try the Blazer .45 hollow points, the front is like an ashtray. If you can make it feed reliably on a 1911, you know what you are doing. Of cause, it's so easy to get reliability with the right bullets.

Of cause, you can have reliability easily with any gun if you shoot factor round nose FMJ. If the gun fails with that, it has issues!!! I made my PPK shoot perfect with Winchester Silver Tips that has a wide mouth JHP. The empty shell eject like 5 to 6ft away. this is reliability.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

drop bear said:


> Exactly.  There is nothing that compares to shooting real people.


Ha ha, I won't go that far. But you really need to get the feel of the real thing. It's not the same.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Alan0354 said:
> 
> 
> > I did not said semi auto are not reliable,





Alan0354 said:


> Most important, small semi auto is* NOT* as reliable as the larger ones like Glock. They jam.





Alan0354 said:


> Go on youtube, those really small ones are not all reliable. I
> 
> If you try looking for 9mm that is about 15oz, you will find it's hard to find a true reliable one.


Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?

I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?
> 
> I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?


I'm with you, brother. My old department wouldn't even allow reloads on our range. Top notch, boxed factory ammo only.

And, yeah, they had a really large budget.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Buka said:


> I'm with you, brother. My old department wouldn't even allow reloads on our range. Top notch, boxed factory ammo only.
> 
> And, yeah, they had a really large budget.


I carry Hornady Critical Defense. Not cheap, but not outrageous either. It's defense ammo and doesn't get fired all that often. Once a year or so I'll fire what's been in the gun and replace it. Otherwise it just sits in the mags. For range day, I use various quality jacketed ammo with the same general specifications as the Hornady. I buy a few thousand rounds at a time when it's on sale. It's reasonably cheap, and makes clean up a lot easier than the super cheap lead slugs.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Did you forget what you said, or is this just backpedaling?
> 
> I don't run my Vette on low octane gas. I don't buy junk guns. Why would I fire junk ammo?


You missed the whole point. You want MARGIN. Don't think just because you shoot good in the range, that you can be calm and cool in life and death situation. You never heard of guns tend to jam in situation where you are nervous and hand shakes a little. That's when you need margin on the gun that even if the shooting situation is NOT perfect, the gun still can shoot reliably.

I hope you read about this, if not, you really really need to look deeper. I have my Gold Cup work to as reliable as possible, the only time it FTF is during the competition. Never before and never after. It was stupid of me to use the Blazer JHP that the front shaped like an ashtray also. Live and learn. It did not cause me the competition, I was the second, but the champion was so far ahead of me even if my gun did not jam, I won't be able to catch up with him.

KEY is to test your gun with the WORST possible rounds, make it reliable, then you put in the best rounds for self defense. This will give you the margin in case your hand is shaking, you can't hold the gun in perfect grip or you have to run and shoot where the gun is bounce up and down.

Hell, it's too too easy to claim the gun is reliable if I choose one brand and model that can feed reliably. THIS IS CHILD'S PLAY. I go so far beyond that!!! That's why I learn gun smithing, not for the fun of it. I sent guns out before, they did a lousy job. I am good with my hands and I have like a small workshop in my garage. I am talking about SERIOUS stuffs here.


I have to say, the design of semi auto took a quantum leap in the last 30 years. You can see the ejector port is much larger, than the old 1911 etal. This really eliminates the ejection problem. The old ones like mine, you really have to have skill to make it reliable. Also, the feed ramp of the new Glock is a lot smoother, the old ones are rough. You should see my old Gold Cup, it's so rough inside. Poor workmanship.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.


Guess not. It's obvious with the laugh. This is SO SO BASIC.

Even Kimber on youtube try to blame people don't hold their small pistol tight that cause the jam.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 22, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> I know you put a laugh. I question how much you know the mechanics of guns.


I think you're funny. I don't think you're intentionally funny, but funny nonetheless.
I know enough about the mechanics of guns to do all my own gunsmithing. While that's pretty trivial on something like a Glock, modifying things like my various 1911's is not.


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## Rich Parsons (Oct 22, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Glocks are not bulky.
> 
> Glocks are not inherently larger, nor are larger guns always Glocks.
> Your statement that smaller semi-autos are inherently less reliable is, in my experience, utter nonsense. I routinely carry a Glock 19. My wife prefers the 26. We own everything from the tiny little 42 and 43 to a suppressed extended slide 41. We also own 1911s in single and double stack variants. Sig-Sauer, Ruger, Para-Ordnance, Bersa, Beretta, Taurus... we have them all. The difference in reliability is non-existent. All of our guns have had thousands of rounds run through them without issue.
> Your comment about unavailability of double action semi-autos is also completely wrong. Ruger, Beretta, Walther, Bersa, and others all sell semi-autos with safety/decockers.



Hey DD,

What no H&K's ?  or were they part of the ... 

From one of the shooting TV competition shows the Competition Glock shooter had a difficult time and kept complaining about the different grip angle that every other gun had. 

Have you seen or know any issues moving from Non Glock to Glock and back to non Glock based around grip to barrel angle?


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## Alan0354 (Oct 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> I think you're funny. I don't think you're intentionally funny, but funny nonetheless.
> I know enough about the mechanics of guns to do all my own gunsmithing. While that's pretty trivial on something like a Glock, modifying things like my various 1911's is not.


Oh, now you are into gun smithing also!! How many 1911 you worked on and accurized? I think you are too fast to dismiss what I said.  I am really surprised you don't know what is accurizing. Particularly the 1911. There's a whole book on this. squeezing the slide and lap it to a tight fit, find a link so you don't have play when you push the chamber from the top. You have to work a lot on the extractor to make it eject reliable.............

I guess we have a very different definition of accuracy and reliability. My definition of accurate is *less than 2" *grouping at *25yds* in sand bagging with NO FLYERS. I never use scope on the gun, I really think the 2" is more on the limitation of my eyes than the gun. Like I said before, I am not a very good shooter, but I can consistently put over 90% into the black circle at 25yds with moderate speed ( about 60 rounds in 10 minutes session.) free hand shooting, Not bang bang bang type of useless shooting at less than 10 yds, actually shooting. I can assure you not too many guns can do 2" grouping no matter how you sand bag, clamp or anything. Even my 8" Colt Trooper can have fliers. You really have to accurize the S&W to get that. That include a tight gap between force cone and the cylinder, smoothed trigger and all that to achieve that. So far, the only two I have that can achieve this kind of accuracy is the Gold Cup after accurization and surprisingly the cheap Ruger Mark II bull barrel 22LR. I am borned cheap, I don't even know how many 10s of thousands of rounds I put through that Ruger, I shot so much I even broke the hammer spring housing!!! AND I REPEAT, I *NEVER have a miss-fire with 22LR* after 10s of thousands of rounds. I don't even remember I ever have a stoppage with the Ruger straight out of the box.

It is absolute NONSENSE for you to say rim fire round are not reliable. I have 10s of thousands of rounds to back what I said.

We obviously have a very different definition of reliability and accuracy. I heard Sig might be better, I don't think accuracy and Glock can be put in the same sentence. I'd be damn if I can get 3" grouping at 25yds in stock form. I know my 659 and the PPK is NOT even close. As for reliability, if your life depends on it, you BETTER have a lot of margins so when you are running, nervous, and in tense situation, your gun still can fire reliably. You better read more about all the complains about guns jam if you don't hold it right or tight enough, that you don't have time to set and pull the trigger.That's when you need all the reliability margin. OF CAUSE, after the testing, I put the best rounds in the guns for self defense, you just test with the ones that always give guns problem and make the gun flawless. Like I said, the only time my Gold Cup jammed was during competition, never before and never after after I worked on the gun. $hit just happens in the wrong moment where you really depends on it.

I did say glock has a much better design, huge ejection port that solve most of the problem. I can only buy gen3, I am still waiting for the gen5 ejector as it's beefier and have more metal for shaping if I want to. Another thing is the stock extractor is casted, I want to get a forged one, also a load chamber indicator. I doubt glock is anywhere close my Gold Cup in accuracy, fitting is loose.

I notice the finishing inside the Glock 26 is a lot better than the Gold Cup. I don't think I need to polish the feedramp and chamber, it's very smooth already from stock. Guns from the 80s or older are really rough, nothing smooth, I don't even know how can people claim they are reliable those days. Everything is rough and bad fitting.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 23, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hey DD,
> 
> What no H&K's ?  or were they part of the ...
> 
> ...


I think there's a lot of cry babies. You ever measure the angle of the grip of a revolver, a lot of them are very slanted, not straight. You ever heard of people complaining the revolvers' slanted butts? People just complain about Glock has a slanted butt. If you take a split second to aim, there should be no problem. People just get into those bang bang bang shooting without aiming. That's really bad habit. Take a split second to aim, don't just go bang bang bang bang!!! It's dangerous in real life situation, the bullets will fly all over the place and hit innocent people that you don't intend to shoot. Take a split second to aim!!!


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## caped crusader (Oct 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> You are the moderator, can you reply with a little respect.



I am guessing he´s the local Sheriff somewhere !


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2021)

Rich Parsons said:


> Hey DD,
> 
> What no H&K's ?  or were they part of the ...


I've never owned an H&Km but I've got a friend who owns several. I've used them, and they do seem very well put together.


Rich Parsons said:


> From one of the shooting TV competition shows the Competition Glock shooter had a difficult time and kept complaining about the different grip angle that every other gun had.


The Glock grip angle is definitely different. I've heard other people complain about it. 


Rich Parsons said:


> Have you seen or know any issues moving from Non Glock to Glock and back to non Glock based around grip to barrel angle?


I think it depends on the person and perhaps how often they change back and forth. I've never personally found it to be an issue. I can tell they're different when I pick them up, but it doesn't really affect shooting, and I can't say I even notice it after the first few seconds.


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 23, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Oh, now you are into gun smithing also!!


Is it a big surprise to learn that someone works on their own guns?


Alan0354 said:


> I guess we have a very different definition of accuracy and reliability. My definition of accurate is *less than 2" *grouping at *25yds* in sand bagging with NO FLYERS.


When I'm bullseye shooting, I have no problem with that level of accuracy. But I'm more interested in practical shooting, which is rapid fire. And you don't want that small a grouping. You want a 6-8" grouping. I can do 100 rounds in that group as fast as I can reload and fire.


Alan0354 said:


> I never use scope on the gun,


A scope? On a handgun? That's always seemed silly to me.


Alan0354 said:


> I really think the 2" is more on the limitation of my eyes than the gun. Like I said before, I am not a very good shooter, but I can consistently put over 90% into the black circle at 25yds with moderate speed ( about 60 rounds in 10 minutes session.) free hand shooting,


Yeah. Slow, aimed, bullseye shooting.


Alan0354 said:


> We obviously have a very different definition of reliability and accuracy. I heard Sig might be better, I don't think accuracy and Glock can be put in the same sentence. I'd be damn if I can get 3" grouping at 25yds in stock form.


It's a mistake to blame your limitations on the gun.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 23, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a mistake to blame your limitations on the gun.


Try 25yds with your guns and come back to tell me. Use sand bag to help. I'd be damn if you can get 3" or better with those high capacity 9mm. You can even use scope if you want to to totally eliminate human limitation. It will be interesting to find out.

I can only say for myself that for free hand shooting I can get over 90% in the black at 25yds ONLY with the Gold Cup, Ruger Mark II, Colt Trooper 8" and S&W M19(before I ruin it, that's another story for different time). The 9mm M659 and the others are all over the place. I can only say I get 100% onto the paper, it's all over the place.

The way you shoot rapid fire is all on how good you are, not the gun as the target is very close. Any reasonable gun can have good grouping at that distance. It's the 25yds that really test the gun. 50yds is too far, wind becomes a big factor. I remember I shot 50yds, one day, I can hit it good, another day it's all over the place...........Only explanation is the wind. Particular the 22LR. I know because I shoot my Ruger 22LR rifle (with scope) and same result also.

I never have a chance to do bang bang bang bang type shooting. The range where I went did not allow rapid shooting. AND they don't have close distance target. Rapid firing only gets popular after my time. At the time, I practiced resting the gun on the table and look away. Then I raise the gun, aim and shoot very quick at 25yds. This was the way I practice fast firing, limiting myself to split second aim time before pulling the trigger. Huge difference in accuracy!!! I can only say I manage to put 100% onto the paper at 25yds. it's all over the paper, forget grouping!!!

I was surprised when you say you do gun smithing because it sounded like you don't know what I am talking about accurizing. There's so much talk about accurizing and customizing 1911. I have a whole book on it how to accurizing 1911. Including squeezing the slide, lapping with the frame to get a perfect fit and all that. Gun smithing is NOT rocket science, don't even need a lot of tools. A good set of Dremo rubber bits, a set of honing stone sticks, a big vise(huge one for squeezing the slide) and other basic hand tools. I worked on cars a lot in my younger days, so I have all the tools I need. It is nothing challenging. 1911 is MADE for modifications. Only think that gets scary is polishing the trigger notch to get rid of creeps to have a clean break.


As for my S&W M19, I customized it so good. It was so accurate. I polished the inside so good, the double action is so smooth with not tightening at the end of the pull at all. The force cone to cylinder was tight to about 0.004" space. Problem is it started to bind after shooting like 50 rounds. The book said the gap can be like 0.006". So I filed the force cone down a little to just a little below 0.006". I LOST IT!!  I lost the tightness of the grouping!!! DAMN. Such a perfect gun and I ruined it.


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## lklawson (Oct 27, 2021)

Dirty Dog said:


> Why on earth would you want a double action semi-auto?


The heavier, longer, revolver-like trigger pull replaces manual safeties.  Several manufacturers have used DAO triggers on their ultra-small pocket guns instead of thumb safeties.  Examples include the Kel Tec P11, PF9, P32, P3AT, the Ruger LCP and LC9, the Taurus TCP 738 and 732, the Rohrbaugh R9, the Remington RM380, and there are other examples.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 27, 2021)

Alan0354 said:


> Try 25yds with your guns and come back to tell me.


Alan,

You've made a lot of assumptions in this thread about other people's skill, experience, and abilities.  For instance you assumed 'dog didn't know what "accurizing" a 1911 is or how it's done.  Anyone into guns who's born before 1970 knows what it is.  You assume that you have skills and knowledge that the people you are talking to do not.  These are inaccurate assumptions and it shows.  Frankly, I feel a bit embarrassed for you.

Take it easy.  Slow down.  Don't assume that you are here to teach people stuff.  What ever it is that you know and can do, someone here knows more and can do it better.  I guarantee it.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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