# Jinekan Training Methodology!



## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

Since we have another thread talking about the X-Kan Genbukan I thought I would start up a thread to talk about the Jinekan Training Methodology.  Soke Manaka Unsui is the head of this organization and while he was taught by Hatsumi Soke, I am sure that his Jinekan has many
differences from the Bujinkan. (His own flavor so to speak of the Takamatsu Den Arts)

Here is the Main Headquarters website :

http://jinenkan.com/en/Default.htm


http://www.yasuragicenter.com/

Yasuragicenter 
Video Clips
http://www.yasuragicenteronline.com/content/download/trailer/trailer1.html
http://www.yasuragicenteronline.com/content/download/trailer/trailer2.html
http://www.yasuragicenteronline.com/content/download/trailer/trailer3.html
http://www.yasuragicenteronline.com/content/download/trailer/trailer4.html

Enjoy these clips as they are very nice!

Hopefully we can have some nice discussion regarding the Jinekan Methodology of Training.


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## kakuma (Jan 27, 2007)

I too hope the discussions will be enjoyable. Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

kakuma said:


> I too hope the discussions will be enjoyable. Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.


 
Hey Dale glad to have you here.  I took a quick look around your website and it is very nicely laid out! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  We have people here from Bujinkan, To Shin Do, Genbukan and now Jinekan.  I look forward to hearing about your experience within the Jinekan and how postively it has affected your life.

No offense meant by using Soke I will use Kancho for your sensei in the future.


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## Bigshadow (Jan 27, 2007)

I know nothing of Jinekan, so it will be interesting to hear more about it.  In a positive manner of course.


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## bydand (Jan 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Dale glad to have you here.  I took a quick look around your website and it is very nicely laid out!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Bigshadow said:


> I know nothing of Jinekan, so it will be interesting to hear more about it.  In a positive manner of course.



Agree with both of these.  I also know nothing of substance of Jinekan, but would like to.  I will be reading these posts with open eyes and mind.


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## Rich Parsons (Jan 27, 2007)

kakuma said:


> I too hope the discussions will be enjoyable. Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.



Sir,

Being totally ignorant of titles and such in the Japanese arts, can you explain what Kancho means and where it comes from. This is by no means a challenger and I apologize if my question asked in ignorance is insulting. I do not mean it as such. I am just trying to read and undertand more.

Thanks


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Sir,
> 
> Being totally ignorant of titles and such in the Japanese arts, can you explain what Kancho means and where it comes from. This is by no means a challenger and I apologize if my question asked in ignorance is insulting. I do not mean it as such. I am just trying to read and undertand more.
> 
> Thanks


 

Hi,

Kan= "hall" refers to the organization, cho means chief.

HTH,


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## kakuma (Jan 28, 2007)

> Kan= "hall" refers to the organization, cho means chief.


Richard's literal transaltion is correct. It can also be termed as "head of family or house". 



> This is by no means a challenger and I apologize if my question asked in ignorance is insulting. I do not mean it as such. I am just trying to read and undertand more.


Rich, it is not insulting to ask a legitimate question. Most people do not know what the title Kancho means. Therefore, no offense is taken.



> No offense meant by using Soke I will use Kancho for your sensei in the future.


Brian thanks for the introduction. I am glad that you liked the website. I have been lurking for a while. By the way, no offense taken either. I look forward to the positive discussions in thread.


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## MJS (Jan 28, 2007)

First off, I think its fantastic that Brian has started these threads!:ultracool   It gives the chance for people, like myself, who really don't have alot of knowledge about the various X-Kans, to grasp a better understanding.

I do have two questions, that I hope Mr. Joseph can answer.

My first question is:  What is a typical Jinenkan class like?

My second question is:  I realize that Manaka Sensei came from a Bujinkan background, and then moved on to form his own org.  Could you explain some of the differences/similarities between the two arts?

Thanks in advance and I look forward to your reply.:asian: 

Mike


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## Rubber Tanto (Jan 28, 2007)

Hello Dale.

I would really like to know:

1) What an avergare class runs like. (Warm ups? Cardio? Ukemi etc?)
2) What the ranking system is like in the Jinenkan? I have heard there are three belts before shodan (green, purple and brown?) but are there any stripes between these ranks? How long would the average students of average skill take between ranks?

Thank you very much in advance
~Nick


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 28, 2007)

Dale do you in the Jinekan have a concentrated area of study for the year? (yearly theme)


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 28, 2007)

Here are some more Jinekan clips from the only authroized Dojo in Canada.
Enjoy.

http://www.jinenkan-ottawa.com/images.htm


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## kakuma (Jan 28, 2007)

Allright I will try to answer these questions to the best of my ability and solely based upon my experience. 

A typical class at the Jinenkan honbu starts with us bowing in of course. 

1. punching exercise - 10 times per side
2. hichojustu waza - which consists of left and right ura then omote shuto 
    uchi using tobi also at a count of ten
3. keri waza which consists of zenpo geri, sokuho geri, koho geri (both
   versions) which also consists of a 10 count per rt. and left side.
4. Zenpo kaiten and koho kaiten around the dojo.
5. Then we train on the topic that Sensei has outlined for class.

This is not a set standard. However it is typically how honbu classes are ran.

At the Jinenkan Butoku Dojo Our intermediate and advance classes run similar to this.

I joined the Bujinkan in when I lived in Houston, Texas under John Lindsey (Now Genbukan) in 1988. I was one of the fortunate few to meet Manaka Sensei when he was still a member of the Bujinkan on his 1st visits to America in 1988 (Dayton SOI), 1989(2 TX. seminars in El Paso and Austin, and 1991 in New Mexico. My meeting and training with Sensei changed the course of my training forever. Though I was and became proficient at many things. Manaka Sensei's ability to make his movement seem so simple and effortless is what grasped my attention.

The differences between the Jinenkan and Bujinkan in my opinion are the attention to details and the openess in which Manaka Sensei provides the information. Most of the beginning stages is solely based on concentrating and mastering the kihon happo. Not just having a profenciency with it but to literally understand and master the movements and techniques through continued practice. 

Manaka Sensei teaches directly from the densho as he was taught by Hatsumi Sensei. Being the 1st student only after about 3 years since Hatsumi Sensei started training with Takamatsu Sensei. There was not much else to train from.

We do not have a specific yearly theme. At the honbu Manaka Sensei may work on a particular part of a ryu-ha. For example Kukishin rokushakubojutsu will  practiced for a certain time frame, stating with kihon until he feels that everyone has a certain proficiency with it. Then move on to maybe Koto Ryu working on the Moto Waza or kihon section of the ryu-ha then working on the katas over and over again until the characteristics, flavor, and understanding has been achieved. 

The Jinenkan Butoku Dojo trains in the same manner. For example we are working on Naginata for the past 6 months and about to transition to Koto Ryu Koppojutsu densho material.

As far as rank the Jinenkan has 3 recognized kyu levels 3rd kyu - 1st kyu. Each dojo cho can format their own kyu levels for any additional kyu levels prior to that. Some start at 9th kyu others start at 6th kyu. The dan ranks start at Shodan and go through KyuDan. 

The length between ranks is solely dependant on the student and his teacher. I have had students that have exceeded others or are more committed to the training than others. Therefore, I cannot give a generalized or average time frame for ranks. 

I believe that I have answered the immediate questions posed at this time. Though not in order, if I have missed something or need to elaborate further, please let me know.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 28, 2007)

Dale thanks for your post and I look forward to hearing more about your training and insight into the Takamatsu den arts!


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## bydand (Jan 28, 2007)

Very informative.  Thanks for that.  Looking forward to even more concerning Jinekan. I know not even enough to ask informed questions at this point though, so I am going to play "lurker" for the most part on this thread for awhile.


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## mrhnau (Jan 28, 2007)

Good information Dale  Thanks for sharing. One of the few things I dislike about both Genbukan and Jinekan is the lack of mentioning training with Hatsumi. Is there a legitimate reason for this? For instance, on your web page, you comment training in "another ninpo taijutsu" and "other organization", but don't actually say Bujinkan or Hatsumi. I've noticed similar things with the Genbukan home page. Is it a matter of trying to seperate yourselves, or possibly out of respect, not wanting to "bad mouth" Hatsumi? No disrespect intended, I'm just trying to figure it out...

This may have been discussed elsewhere, but if so, I've been unable to find it on MTalk. If discussed elsewhere, I do apologize.


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## Rubber Tanto (Jan 28, 2007)

mrhnau said:


> Good information Dale  Thanks for sharing. One of the few things I dislike about both Genbukan and Jinekan is the lack of mentioning training with Hatsumi. Is there a legitimate reason for this? For instance, on your web page, you comment training in "another ninpo taijutsu" and "other organization", but don't actually say Bujinkan or Hatsumi. I've noticed similar things with the Genbukan home page. Is it a matter of trying to seperate yourselves, or possibly out of respect, not wanting to "bad mouth" Hatsumi? No disrespect intended, I'm just trying to figure it out...
> 
> This may have been discussed elsewhere, but if so, I've been unable to find it on MTalk. If discussed elsewhere, I do apologize.


 
I think Dale Saego once said that this was down out of respect to Hatsumi-Sensei. (Maybe so that people cannot say he is not trying to ride anyone else's reputation etc)


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## kakuma (Jan 28, 2007)

As indicated in the last thread this is done purely out of respect for Hatsumi Sensei. Anyone who knows me already knows my beginnings in the Bujinkan. If anyone asks I have no problem stating that. However, I also no longer feel the need to promote it. I don't feel the need to downplay or criticize the Bujinkan in any way shape or form. After all, we were all one. I respect Hatsumi Sensei very highly as I do Manaka Sensei.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 28, 2007)

kakuma said:


> As indicated in the last thread this is done purely out of respect for Hatsumi Sensei. Anyone who knows me already knows my beginnings in the Bujinkan. If anyone asks I have no problem stating that. However, I also no longer feel the need to promote it. I don't feel the need to downplay or criticize the Bujinkan in any way shape or form. After all, we were all one. I respect Hatsumi Sensei very highly as I do Manaka Sensei.


 
Nice post Dale and well said.  Respect I am sure goes both ways.  Whether Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan the roots are the same they are all Takamatsu den arts.  There may be disagreements sometimes but there are good people all around.


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## kakuma (Jan 29, 2007)

Brian you are correct, respect should be shown on all sides. I still have friends in the Bujinkan and I still respect my 1st instructor John Lindsey though he is now Genbukan. Of course we have not seen each other in a number of years. However, I would not be here without Hatsumi Sensei, John Lindsey Sensei and of course Manaka Sensei. 

Philosophies on teaching the information may be different. But yes still one. I always wonder if other arts like Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu have the type of issues as the Takamatsu-Den arts. They too have 3 different branches. I am more familiar with the Sekiguchi Branch only because I have students that formely studied under that branch. It seems, though the original founder was the same, they have respect for each others differences and their branches without a lot of contreversies.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 29, 2007)

kakuma said:


> Brian you are correct, respect should be shown on all sides. I still have friends in the Bujinkan and I still respect my 1st instructor John Lindsey though he is now Genbukan. Of course we have not seen each other in a number of years. However, I would not be here without Hatsumi Sensei, John Lindsey Sensei and of course Manaka Sensei.
> 
> Philosophies on teaching the information may be different. But yes still one. I always wonder if other arts like Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu have the type of issues as the Takamatsu-Den arts. They too have 3 different branches. I am more familiar with the Sekiguchi Branch only because I have students that formely studied under that branch. It seems, though the original founder was the same, they have respect for each others differences and their branches without a lot of contreversies.


 
Hey Dale,

I am a practitioner of Muso Jikiden Eishin Ryu Iaido and yes there are more variations (even more than three) from what I can gather.  They do not seem to have as many controversies. (good for them)


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## MJS (Jan 29, 2007)

Mr. Joseph,

Thank you for a very detailed reply.  A few more questions if you don't mind.

I'm assuming Manaka Sensei is based in Japan, not the states.  Does he make frequent trips to the states for training sessions?  How often do the instructors in the states travel to Japan for training?

In one of your replies, you stated:



> The differences between the Jinenkan and Bujinkan in my opinion are the attention to details and the openess in which Manaka Sensei provides the information.


 
Now, my next question is a sincere one, not intended to cause a flame war or bashing of the art.  If you prefer not to answer, thats perfectly fine with me, or if you'd rather PM me your reply.  Would you say that instructors from the Bujinkan withhold certain things or wait until the students reach a certain point in training?  I ask this because of the openess statement.

Thanks,

Mike


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## kakuma (Jan 30, 2007)

> I'm assuming Manaka Sensei is based in Japan, not the states.  Does he make frequent trips to the states for training sessions?


In 2001 Manaka Sensei resided in the MD to help build and grow the level of training within the Jinenkan he returned to Japan in 2004 and opened the Jinenkan Honbu in 2005. Manaka Sensei does in fact reside in Nodashi, Japan. 

He makes trips back to the US at least once a year. This year we are fortunate to have him in the US in March doing workshops and again in Oct. for our annual Seminar. 



> How often do the instructors in the states travel to Japan for training?


This is totally dependant on the instructor. Speaking only for myself at this point, I travel twice a year to train. 

Because the last question will be based solely upon my opinion I will send my answer via PM.


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## haikufive (Feb 9, 2007)

Hello everyone!
I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!). 
One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love. 
Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
Scott Plyler
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo


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## bydand (Feb 9, 2007)

Glad to have another Jinenkan Practitioner here.  There are a couple right now and it is interesting to hear about the differences between the X-Kan's.  I find that effortlessness with movement a bit like a love/hate relationship for me.  I love to see it in action, love to work toward it for myself; but hate it with a passion when it is used against me.   It is humbling to have somebody half my size bounce me off the floor at will, or tie me into a pretzel showing a technique and having to tap out while they are casually explaining to the rest of the class where you could go from there.  

Scott (haikufive), go on over to the "meet and greet" section and run up a post introducing yourself to the rest of the forum.  This is a great bunch and the only place where I haven't seen everything posted concerning any of the X-kans turn into a flamefest.  Oh sure some spirited disscussion is raised now and again, but nothing like most other forums.


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## mrhnau (Feb 9, 2007)

haikufive said:


> Hello everyone!
> I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!).
> One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love.
> Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
> ...


Hi Scott. I might be moving up your way in a few months. I'll have to come check you guys out, if thats ok


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## MJS (Feb 9, 2007)

haikufive said:


> Hello everyone!
> I've been training in the Jinenkan for about 3 years now. I had no prior taijutsu experience, but I had trained for 6 years in Shorin-ryu karate, Kobayashi-ryu branch. Suffice to say, the training and the methodologies are QUITE different. I recently passed my test for shodan (Dale, wish you could have been there!!!) and I try to train with as many of the Jinenkan dojo-cho as possible (again Dale, look for me to pick up a few Lubbock overnights to come hang out with you and your group!).
> One of the biggest things that strikes me about the senior students and dojo-cho is their effortlessness. Every movement seems so simple, so concise, so utterly lacking in muscle strength... until your arm is twisted and your shoulder is about to pop out and your neck is being squeezed and.... well, we've all been there (if you haven't, give it a try... it's exhilirating!). They just make it look so damned easy. One the one hand it's infuriating, because you feel like a rag doll getting tossed around; but on the other hand it's quite uplifting because you know that it's all done with love.
> Glad to be a part of this forum. Be well, everyone.
> ...


 
Welcome to Martial Talk!   I look forward to hearing more of your experience with the Jinenkan!:ultracool 

Mike


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## kakuma (Feb 9, 2007)

Scott, 

Great to have you on martialtalk as well. Congratulations on passing shodan. It was well deserved bro. :ultracool Wish I could have been there. 
Let me know when you plan to make it this way. We'd love to see you.


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## haikufive (Feb 9, 2007)

Wow! Quite a pleasant reception. Seems like an extremely nice group here, I look forward to catching up on the threads and having mutually beneficial discussions. I'll hop over and post on the new members section pronto.

Dale - Thanks for the kind words! I'll definitely contact you when I know I'm going to have an overnight out your way. I've been meaning to get out there with you guys for a while now, but I've actually been ending up on LA a lot and training with Peter and his crew when I'm not home here in Maryland. 

Mrhnau - Of course!!! Anytime you'd like to come up, just let me know through PM or email contact! I'll give you the details of class schedules and whatnot. We'd love to have you! 

So I was wondering if any of the non-Jinenkan practitioners had had any opportunities to train with Manaka Sensei before and after his founding of the Jinenkan, and had any input as to changes that they might notice in his movements, etc. I absolutely love watching the man in action, but I'd still been seeing everything from a very limited perspective (Oh wow! That guys just flew up into the air! Wish I could do that!) instead of taking in the more specifics of techniques (Aaaaahhhhh, I see. He shifted his weight  a little onto his front leg to break the guys balance, then flipped him over when he tried to settle. I see!!!). It's funny, but I've noticed as my training has progressed, it's definitely the smaller, teeny tiny details that make all the difference. I think that's one thing that I really, really like about training inside of the Jinenkan- everyone whom I've ever trained with, at seminars, in their dojos, and in the dojo where I reside, is very very nitpicky about details. And it really DOES make a world of difference, once you pick up on the subtleties. I've found it pretty much consistently across the board. Meticulous attention to detail.


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## Myoumei (Feb 9, 2007)

Greetings all, I train at the Jinenkan Los Angeles dojo for a few months, am currently 9th kyu, and will test for 8th kyu soon. Note that I have started cross-training in an unrelated jujutsu school nearby, but have kept this fact to myself at the Jinenkan dojo.

The international organization recognizes the following ranks:
3rd kyu: green belt
2nd kyu: purple belt
1st kyu: brown belt
I believe to be 3rd kyu or higher, you must be a member of the international organization.

The L.A. dojo has the following additional ranks:
9th kyu: yellow-white
8th kyu: yellow
7th kyu: orange-white
6th kyu: orange
5th kyu: red
4th kyu: blue

Basic curriculum is on a sixth month rotation. That means a student starting at any point at the dojo will get back to what that student was studying at the start after six months. They trains 2 times per week, for ONLY 30 minutes (the students can warm up on their own for up to 20 minutes before hand) Imediately after this 30 minutes is over, the students only enrolled in the basic program leave the mat, and only those paying for the "Masters" program remain, and train for an additional 25 minutes or so.

Additionally, students that pay for (and *only* students that pay for) the "masters" program also learn the advanced curriculum, which I believe also rotates every six months. The "Masters" program is open to any student, not just advanced ones, and allows the student to train a 3rd time each week, and also train in the advanced classes that occur  immediately after the basic technique classes 

Fees for the basic curriculum is $100.00 per month, but with a minimum commitment of six months.
Fees for the "Masters" program is $150.00 per month, with a minimum commitment of 12 months.

Testing is every two months, for the lesser kyus (9th-4th).

******************************************************
My concerns:
1) Commitment period. Neither the Bujinkan nor the Ginenkan [sic] require lengthy contracts like this. As a consultant, my income tends to be feast-or-famine cycle, with me on a famine cycle atm (at the moment). This makes long-term commitments for large amount of money somewhat problematic for me.

2) The length of each training session. At the Jujutsu place I train, we train for two hours.  That is a far cry from 30 minutes, or even 1 hour. I believe 2 hours is longer than most places (Most other places I have investigated are in the hour to hour and a half range); however, a half hour is a bit of a ..scam?

3) Rank promotion. The rank testing comes every two months, and is nearly automatic for the lesser kyus (9th-4th), with students rarely being "refused" promotion. However, on a good note: appears to be much slower promotion after that (perhaps due to international dojo standards).

4) The general over-all cost.
This is somewhat less of a concern. 

$150 a month is not as high as some places...at the Jujutsu place I started at, a lady there was telling me some Karate schools she had looked into wanted as much at $250 a month! However, $150 is not "cheap" either. The kyokushin karate school in downtown Little Tokyo, Los Angeles, charges $85 a month for *unlimited* access...that means up to 4 times a week for the lesser kyus (which start at 6th, I believe), and they are a re-nowned hard-hitting and effictive style.

Meanwhile, the jujutsu place I train at charges $45 for THREE months...that is $15 a month. However, it is at a community center, so a low fee structure is to be expected.

******************************************************
Things that are NOT concerns:

1) The techniques themselves. They appear to be very effective, and possibly superior and generally less complicated to implement in a real fight, than what I am getting at the community center.

2) The plethora of belts. Have a belt color for every kyu might seem like "belt farming" to some folks, but I don't mind that part ( I like lots of "levels"; goes back to my D&D days ). The belt fees are only $30, which is MUCH lower than some places I've been told about.


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## Myoumei (Feb 9, 2007)

haikufive said:


> Wow! Quite a pleasant reception. Seems like an extremely nice group here, I look forward to catching up on the threads and having mutually beneficial discussions. I'll hop over and post on the new members section pronto.


 
Nice to meet you, Haikufive; I believe we have met 

You were the 1st kyu that visited us last month, who works in the Airline industry, am I not mistaken?


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## haikufive (Feb 9, 2007)

2) The length of each training session. At the Jujutsu place I train, we train for two hours. That is a far cry from 30 minutes, or even 1 hour. I believe 2 hours is longer than most places (Most other places I have investigated are in the hour to hour and a half range); however, a half hour is a bit of a ..scam?

3) Rank promotion. The rank testing comes every two months, and is nearly automatic for the lesser kyus (9th-4th), with students rarely being "refused" promotion. However, on a good note: appears to be much slower promotion after that (perhaps due to international dojo standards).

4) The general over-all cost.
This is somewhat less of a concern. 




This might not be the proper place for me to drop my two cents, but I figure I'll go ahead and give it a shot. I've trained at the Los Angeles dojo before, and from my personal experience the 45-50 minute training sessions are VERY intense, with pretty much nonstop rotation. There is very little to no 'warmup' or 'junan taiso' period, with the assumption being that a student is always welcome to come to class earlier in order to stretch out. The kata, as they are being taught, are done repetitively, with many different people. Therefore you get a wide range of people to practice on, with different body types and ways of movement. The instructor will take time to explain, but there's much more emphasis on rolling up your sleeves and actually getting into the technique. The cost is higher than I've seen at some schools, but also so is the accesibility, with classes being available nearly every night of the week. Also, the dojo itself is quite nice, with a fully mirrored wall, tatami floor, nice soothing green paint job, plenty of training implements, and whatnot. I can honestly say that the workout I've gotten when I trained there, in the 45-50 minute offerings, was quite intense. Especially the sword classes. 
Anyhow, I guess everyone has a different experience and different expectations. Different instructors do things differently for different reasons, and to appeal to different audiences. 
Have happy and safe training! Maybe I'll see you out on the Left Coast sometime!
Scott Plyler.
Jinenkan Baltimore dojo


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## haikufive (Feb 9, 2007)

Myoumei said:


> Nice to meet you, Haikufive; I believe we have met
> 
> You were the 1st kyu that visited us last month, who works in the Airline industry, am I not mistaken?


 

That's me! Hopefully I'll be able to get out there and train with y'all again sometime son- I'll be out there again this coming Monday night but unfortunately won't get in in time to train, I think we get in at like 11pm or so and then leave out around noon the next day.


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## Myoumei (Feb 11, 2007)

haikufive said:


> . I've trained at the Los Angeles dojo before, and from my personal experience the 45-50 minute training sessions are VERY intense, with pretty much nonstop rotation.



Thanks for your reply; hopefully we can train together again soon (you'll recognize me when you see me, and we *did* train together one session )

]Its 30 minutes training for the basic program, 50 minutes for the Masters program. Yes, I agree the training IS pretty intense, and set up in an effective fashion so that the students get a lot of good drilling with many partners. Plus, Peter Sensai is nice about the seshions and often allows them to run over a few minutes. Additionally, Peter Sensai, the dojo cho, always trains us *personally*, and never passes us off on a lower dan to train us. These are all very good features...I wanted to take a positive note here.

Those in the Master program may well find the 50 minutes to be more than enough work out...it is quite intense, as you said ; however, those in the basic program only get the 30 minutes, and I can't personally afford to commit to $150 a month for 12 months at this time ; so really, its more a personal issue than a problem with the dojo. This dojo is located in Westwood, a quite affluent part of Los Angeles&#8230;most of those that live in this area can probably afford the 12 month commitment easily; and those that can afford the commitment, get the full 50+ minutes, which is probably sufficiently intense for most people, as you described.

I personally commute to this dojo clear over from South El Monte. South El Monte is&#8230;somewhat the opposite of affluent. The only reason I travel so far is because I specifically wanted to train in one of the X-cans, and not some tai-kwon-do or mcDojo Karate place (The kind where if you try to ask them what style of karate they train, all you get back is a blank stare). Unfortunately, that&#8230; and maybe a few Aikido places&#8230; are all that is offered close to home.

One thing you can be sure of at the LA Jinenkan dojo: The training you get is the real deal, however much of it there might be.


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## Don Roley (Feb 12, 2007)

kakuma said:


> I too hope the discussions will be enjoyable. Just an FYI Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org. is Kancho.



Well, maybe he is too humble to use the title Soke, but it is a title he is sometimes refered to.

I saw a video of his stuff for sale. He has his own art aside from those like the Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, etc. It is his own and no one elses. So the video for sale lists him as the soke of it. (IIRC- Jinen ryu). So while Manaka may not  feel he should use the title soke through a sense of humilty, it was not incorrect for Brian to use the title to honor him.


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## kakuma (Feb 12, 2007)

Don,

I have no desire to argue any point with you. As you have been very expressive of your opinions, however, Manaka Sensei has never referred to himself as soke of anything. 

The title was used by one of his students only because he is the originator of said style. Someone elses reference does not mean it is an official title. Manaka Sensei does not issue license or rank in said style and therefore does not have a title for said style either.

His official title of the Jissen Kobudo Jinenkan Orginization is "Kancho". That has never changed despite what you have seen and heard. Therefore, the use of anything otherwise as stated previously would be incorrect.

Furthermore, the thread is titled Jinenkan Training Methodology and not in reference to incorrect title references. I would also like to refer you back to Mr. Hubbard's notice in this section.

If you would like to know what Manaka Senei has stated concerning the creation of the Jinen Ryu please refer to this link...
www.jinenkan-inazuma.com/SenseiInterview.html
Though this interview was done a few years ago, Sensei's thoughts have not changed since the interview concerning said system. 

Though my Japanese is not the greatest, the translation of the word Soke does not mean founder, originator or creator. Therefore, the use of the term would still be incorrect. Since Manaka Unsui Sensei has offically refered to his title as "Kancho" until he changes that title it is appropriate to only refer to him as such. 

Have a great day.


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## amitchell (Feb 14, 2007)

Mr. VanCise, thank you for starting this thread and positng my clips. I will try my best to answer your questions and those of others from my experience, while all of the info my friend and colleague Dale has provided is great.

I do not come from a Bujinkan background. I did train with a few Shidoshi to experience Budo Taijutsu while studying Jujutsu, and I was VERY fortunate with the very brief experience that I had, to train with Shidoshi Sean Askew who I found to be one of the best trainers and practioners of Budo I have yet to meet. His training and his students were fantastic, so this is the only direct experience with the Bujinkan I have - and it was great. Outside of this, I know little about it. How I came to train with my teacher is another matter and if any one wants to know, I'd be glad to share, just PM me as it's off topic.

Concerning the comments regarding the disconnect with Hatsumi Soke and the other XKan(?), I cannot and would never speak on the behalf of my teacher, but I will tell you when someone in the Honbu one morning referred to Hatsumi Soke as "Hatsumi", Manaka Sensei became visibly bothered with this and directed the student to NEVER speak about this man in such a way and they were to use the words Sensei whenever discussing his "teachers" name. That made things very clear to me that my Sensei holds his teacher in a high regard and that whatever their history...it has nothing to do with me and my path in Kobudo. I leave it at that and will always do my best to follow this example. It should also be pointed out that in Sensei's book, he speaks very openly about his teacher and the early years of his training. I encourage anyone interested to learn more about Manaka Unsui, to purchase his new book.

To address the question of training, I will give you a brief detail of how we train at our Dojo, which is not much unlike Dale's. Our focus is centered on basics and we will only train what has been directly taught to us by Sensei. There is no henka and no down time during training. Most of my classes are run with cadence (as it is military arts) but this is my own personal teaching method. We try to push oursleves hard and combative. I will not ask anything of my students I cannot do myself and I know this is the case with all Jinenkan Dojo Cho. We (my dojo) do use resistance in our training, sparring (weapons too), and tons of tanren. The main focus is on heavy repitition and perfection of Kihon happo, striking and rolling. 
Classes: 1:30
Prior to class: Junan Taiso
:00-:15 Daken Kihon (500 reps)
:15-:30 Ukemi / Taihenjutsu
:30-:50 Nage waza or Torite
:50-1:15 Kata (1 per week, This week: Karame Dori) 40 reps
1:15-1:30 Randori (skill level specific)

Weapons 1 day a week (Friday)
Classes: 1:30

Kenjutsu 2 nights a week
Classes: 1:00
:00-:10 Kihon To Ho (30 reps / 210 cuts)
:10-:20 Ashi sabaki and blocking/receiving
:20-:40 Jinen Ryu Kata (same as above) 30 reps
:40-:60 Randori or Karatakewari / suburito 200 reps

I train with Sensei personally, four times a year. I travel to both Japan and Europe, as well as attend his US seminars. Also, I make every attempt to bring my students of all levels on my travels. This year in Belgium, we will have 9 students training from new york, from 15 - 60 years of age! As a Dojo Cho, this is my idea of success. When Sensei lived in the states, and he was only a couple hours away, I was fortunate to spend alot more time training with him.

Someone asked about prices, our center is open 7 days a week and classes run from 6:30am up to 9:30pm so we do charge. Depends on what the student is doing as we teach everything from Ikebana to Jissen Kobudo. We're not expensive though.

I hope I was able to bring some insight to how we train here in our part of New York and how we represent Manaka Unsui Sensei. 

Sho Shin

Kindly,
Adam Mitchell


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## kakuma (Feb 15, 2007)

Welcome to martialtalk Adam. Glad to have another Jinenkan Dojo Cho on board.


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