# How often do you use the more fancier Kicks?



## Kenlee25 (Mar 19, 2012)

One thing I've noticed more recently while sparring is that I tend to prefer the use of my hands over my legs. Going in for a great counter punch combo and maybe ending with a kick seems more natural to me than doing more powerful fancier kicks. I hardly ever use crescent kicks, Tornado kicks, or hook kicks. Mostly just round kicks, twist kicks, and side kicks.

Am I the only one? Sometimes I feel like a poor TKD practitioner because of my lack of kicking in a kick heavy art ( although I know perfectly well how to do them. )...especially after 11 years of it.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 19, 2012)

You are not alone. In sparring or self defense, it's safe to say that in general, the fancier the kick, the less likely it is to be useful. Even the fanciest can be used at times, but you will find more opportunities to use the simpler kicks.

Using the hands to setup finishing kicks is an excellent idea. Hands move faster than feet. They can be used to counter an attack and redirect it in a way that creates an opening for a solid kick. Or, as you described, throwning a few hand strikes to convince your opponent to move his guard HERE rather than HERE...

As long as your primary interest isn't in WTF-style sparring, there's no reason to feel that you're doing anything wrong.


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## MAist25 (Mar 19, 2012)

Don't let olympic style sparring make you feel like that is the only right way to spar. As long as you aren't planning on competing in the olympics your sparring is probably fine. I too use a lot of hand techniques during sparring and I don't see myself as a sub-par TKD practitioner because of it. However, I do try and use fancy kicks during sparring as well because it is the best way to improve your overall technique. You should challenge yourself to execute more advanced techniques during sparring rather than doing what you are already comfortable with. Sparring is a time to learn and you won't learn if you just do the same things over and over again. But like I said, nothing wrong with the way you spar just because it doesn't look like what the olympians are doing.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 19, 2012)

The typical kick heavy, hands down style is the right way to do one thing and that is win WTF tournaments.

If your goal is to learn Taekwondo and enjoy yourself, even protect yourself, you're doing nothing wrong. I love counterpunching too.

If your goal is to fight Aaron Cook in the next 2 years, your sparring has to reflect that


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

The longer I train the higher my ratio of punches to kicks seems to become. These days I would throw one kick to every 3 o 4 punches.I wouldnt say I dont t do fancy kicks, in fact I land tornado kicks quite regularly. Generally though, I use fancy kicks as an effective training tool to improve balance, core strength, co ordination and flexibility, I personally dont see much point to them outside of a training tool. As others have said, unless you are entering wtf tournaments, just spar with what works well for you. A guy I train with made it to the final of the sparring in our club championships, winning all his fights, and probably threw one or two kicks the whole time and the rest were all punches. Never feel like you have to "conform" to a certain sparring type just because you do tkd. There is far more to tkd than just kicking.


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## Kenlee25 (Mar 19, 2012)

Thanks guys. I always try to apply sparring to be as realistic as possible to simulate actual fighting, but I see what you are saying. Using the different moves will definitely help as a training technique. I'll make sure to remember that.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 19, 2012)

Crescent Kick and Hook Kick arent fancy - If You think They are, read into Their uses more.

Taekwondo is not a Kicking Heavy Martial Art, its a Martial Art which can be interpreted as such. It can, and is, also taught as a Punching System. Some places dont even teach You Front Kicks until Youre a 7th Geup.

In answer to Your Question, I randomly did a 'Tornado' Kick once just to see if I could do it without ever being taught how to do it, and seeing it only on one video. I succeeded.


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## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

Taekwondo has a greater number of hand skills than kicking skills.  There are 17 different types of sparring in Taekwondo. 1 through 16 uses more hand skills than kicking skills. #17 uses more kicking skills than hand skills for attack. #17 allows practitioners to get the very valuable experience of full contact sparring.

Over all, Taekwondo uses about 60% hand skills and about 40% kicking skills, when compared to each other. There are other skills such as feinting, stepping, dodging, deflecting, etc., that do not fall into the category of hand skills or kicking skills.

Personally if I favored hand technique, I would want to kick more, to improve that area, not neglect it.


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## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

MAist25 said:


> Don't let olympic style sparring make you feel like that is the only right way to spar. As long as you aren't planning on competing in the olympics your sparring is probably fine. I too use a lot of hand techniques during sparring and I don't see myself as a sub-par TKD practitioner because of it. However, I do try and use fancy kicks during sparring as well because it is the best way to improve your overall technique. You should challenge yourself to execute more advanced techniques during sparring rather than doing what you are already comfortable with. Sparring is a time to learn and you won't learn if you just do the same things over and over again. But like I said, nothing wrong with the way you spar just because it doesn't look like what the olympians are doing.



I train all my students in *shihap kyorugi* method, the type of training methods and sparring used in the Olympics for Taekwondo.  I do it for the self defense benefit. I feel it offers the greatest self defense benefit of all the other sparring types found in Taekwondo.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 19, 2012)

mastercole said:


> I train all my students in *shihap kyorugi* method, the type of training methods and sparring used in the Olympics for Taekwondo.  I do it for the self defense benefit. I feel it offers the greatest self defense benefit of all the other sparring types found in Taekwondo.



whatever you are smoking, you need to cut back if you think hippy hoppy hands down roundkicks over and over and over are self defense practical.....


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> Thanks guys. I always try to apply sparring to be as realistic as possible to simulate actual fighting, but I see what you are saying. Using the different moves will definitely help as a training technique. I'll make sure to remember that.


What type of sparring do you use? I ask because you said you try to keep sparring as realistic as possible. In my opinion if you were to design a ruleset for sparring which looks as far from a realistic altercation as is humanly possible you would come up with wtf ruleset. Rarely in a realistic fight will you see kicks (particularly above waist height), rarely in a real fight will there not be at least 1 head punch within 2 seconds of the fight starting, rarely will you see two guys standing 4 feet from each other, rarely will a spin kick work in a real situation (even less likely will it be 'rewarded') etc. Dont get me wrong, where I train we use many different types of sparring and I find the olympic ruleset a lot of fun, but realistic, no way.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> whatever you are smoking, you need to cut back if you think hippy hoppy hands down roundkicks over and over and over are self defense practical.....


anybody who gets on a martial arts board and declares olympic sparring to be realistic self defence is trolling.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 19, 2012)

or ****ing delusional



ralphmcpherson said:


> anybody who gets on a martial arts board and declares olympic sparring to be realistic self defence is trolling.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> or ****ing delusional


you're quite right. I dont believe any ruleset Ive seen is close to real fighting, some come closer than others obviously. But seriously, close your eyes and picture a streetfight in all its glory, then imagine two guys sparring wtf style and they are not even remotely similar.


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## Archtkd (Mar 19, 2012)

Here we go again! Chill, everyone. Breath, think,


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## mastercole (Mar 19, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> One thing I've noticed more recently while sparring is that I tend to prefer the use of my hands over my legs. Going in for a great counter punch combo and maybe ending with a kick seems more natural to me than doing more powerful fancier kicks. I hardly ever use crescent kicks, Tornado kicks, or hook kicks. Mostly just round kicks, twist kicks, and side kicks.
> 
> Am I the only one? Sometimes I feel like a poor TKD practitioner because of my lack of kicking in a kick heavy art ( although I know perfectly well how to do them. )...especially after 11 years of it.



When an excellent student learns the correct basic principles of Taekwondo from an excellent teacher, and that students puts in the correct effort in to skills like kicking, they become excellent at it. They can kick from any angle or any turn.  When that practitioner applies those amazing basic skills from any angle they like, it just seems fancy. It's not. It's basic done really well.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Here we go again! Chill, everyone. Breath, think,


I really dont think people having different views on realistic sparring techniques means its time to chill. It always makes for some good debate. If personal attacks start then we need to chill. Mastercole is more than welcome to his opinions, but so are others.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> Thanks guys. I always try to apply sparring to be as realistic as possible to simulate actual fighting, but I see what you are saying. Using the different moves will definitely help as a training technique. I'll make sure to remember that.


My whole perspective changed when I began to see flashy kicks as a training tool rather than an actual kick. It was about the time I got my black belt and my instructor (who I know personally) must have noticed I was feeling indifferent to the "flashy" moves. I was having dinner at his house one night and he brought the subject up and we discussed it at length, he told me that my basics would improve after working on flashy kicks, he told me that when he learnt the tornado kick it improved his regular roundhouse kick. He told me he always struggled with balance and co ordination in his early days and after learning a jump spinning hook kick these areas improved. He told me to use them as tools to improve my basics and not to look at them as a way of defending myself. I took that onboard and it made a world of difference to me. Now I actually enjoy doing some of the flashy things, but I mainly do them in my spare time working alone at home and save class time for working on the sorts of things I would use to defend myself. It all comes down to a time thing for me. If martial arts was my full time job, then I would spend the time to perfect all the flashy things there are to learn. Unfortunately I have a wife, kids, a business, other hobbies etc, and the hours and hours I could spend perfecting a flashy kick I will never actually use, is time I could be spending doing 100 roundhouse kicks with each leg or a couple of hundred punches or cardio etc etc, but its each to their own obviously.


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## Archtkd (Mar 19, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I really dont think people having different views on realistic sparring techniques means its time to chill. It always makes for some good debate. If personal attacks start then we need to chill. Mastercole is more than welcome to his opinions, but so are others.



Different opinions? Good debate? Regurgitation of stuff that been floating back and forth in the taekwondo forums for a decade is more of what's going on here.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 19, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Different opinions? Good debate? Regurgitation of stuff that been floating back and forth in the taekwondo forums for a decade is more of what's going on here.


I think there is a reason certain subjects continually come up, people find them interesting and are passionate about those subjects. As long as people keep bringing them up, and are well mannered in their posts Im more than happy to dicuss it, as obviously many others are also. Its when people get rude or make personal attacks that I see a problem. I think thats why threads discussing such topics go for 15-20 pages, if no one was interested and it was just the same stuff regurgitated it wouldnt get past the first page.


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## Kenlee25 (Mar 19, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> What type of sparring do you use? I ask because you said you try to keep sparring as realistic as possible. In my opinion if you were to design a ruleset for sparring which looks as far from a realistic altercation as is humanly possible you would come up with wtf ruleset. Rarely in a realistic fight will you see kicks (particularly above waist height), rarely in a real fight will there not be at least 1 head punch within 2 seconds of the fight starting, rarely will you see two guys standing 4 feet from each other, rarely will a spin kick work in a real situation (even less likely will it be 'rewarded') etc. Dont get me wrong, where I train we use many different types of sparring and I find the olympic ruleset a lot of fun, but realistic, no way.




ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.

I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard. 

The only rules we have are the ones I have mentioned and obviously don't flat our fight each other.

However I do see your point in the rules. Sparring can only go so far. That's why I said i treat is as realistic as POSSIBLE. I didn't say it would ever be realistic. If it were up to me, I'd have full contact sparring with everything ( literally everything except maybe elbows ) available to be used as long as they are with control ( so a light tap to the groin etc ) but most arts will not do that. The only one's I know that do are Jeet Kune Do and Krav Maga.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 20, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.
> 
> I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard.
> 
> ...


I had no idea what sort of sparring you did, thats why the first line of my post was "what type of sparring do you use?". Your sparring sounds very similar to ours. If we drop our guard we get push ups, and lots of them.


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## StudentCarl (Mar 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> whatever you are smoking, you need to cut back if you think hippy hoppy hands down roundkicks over and over and over are self defense practical.....



I think you're oversimplifying on purpose, which is a shame because it reduces the quality of the discussion. You don't have to hop like a bunny to have good motion and movement, and quickness and agility are at the heart of shihap kyorugi. You already know that hand position is relative to the threat, and hands down fits fine if you're outside even kicking range. Having had ribs cracked through a hogu, I'm not as quick to dismiss that round kick as you are.

Not everything in a sport has to be directly self-defense practical to have value, just like you don't see arae makki in ap koobi used often either...doesn't mean it lacks value.


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## StudentCarl (Mar 20, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> ummmm we don't spar WTF style...where did I say I did? our sparring is akin to any other sparring you would see in a martial arts class. Head gear and gloves, Free sparring for one - two minutes. Use whatever techniques except for elbows, knees, and grappling. Most of the students use more punches than kicks, and most don't use the spin kicks. I know one that does a lot, and It never works very well. Everyone in our class keeps their hands up and actively has to block both punches and kicks. My master will even get angry at us when she sees someone not fighting with their hands up or not applying proper footwork.
> 
> I said I treat it realistically...as In I usually only throw moves that I would use on the street, so in sparring that mainly equates to front kicks to the gut ( to simulate groin ) Round kicks ( no higher than waist, but I'll sometimes throw a headkick just for fun ) and side kicks. Otherwise just punches, hammer fists, palm strikes, etc etc. I stand like I would on the street, I'm aggressive, I put power into my blows and I don't make any unnecessary movements. I parry blows into my own strikes, and quite often I've been complimented on my ability to slip right throw my opponent's guard.
> 
> ...



Do you allow kicks to knees and thigh? How about sweeps? I'm finding that my technique selection has most to do with my range and position. Allowing traps and sweeps along with punches to the head is good. I hope you do still get to train elbows and knees on bags; I love 'em.


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## Gorilla (Mar 20, 2012)

In today's current enviroment punching does score if you know how to punch.  If the punch is powerful executed with proper technique it will score.  I probably watch as many as  1000 matches per year at all level from local to high end international opens and punching is scored frequently. 

Our recent set of Olympians do not punch frequently but that is their strategy.  

I may be biased because we practice Shotokan and are good punchers who know how to use that weapon.


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## Kenlee25 (Mar 20, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> Do you allow kicks to knees and thigh? How about sweeps? I'm finding that my technique selection has most to do with my range and position. Allowing traps and sweeps along with punches to the head is good. I hope you do still get to train elbows and knees on bags; I love 'em.



Unfortunately no kicks to legs :/ although we sometime sneak them anyway. Sweeps, not in regular sparring, but when I spar with one of my instructors we went all out, sweeping and even wrestling on the ground...he always won...but still. So I know how to use sweeps, and I even practice them on some my martial arts friends. 

We use punches to the head as well. You just can directly full contact jab someone in the face. 

I train elbows and knees on bags and basically whatever objects I can find around the house haha. Also we go over the fine points of how to use them. Knees specifically. Where to grab etc etc.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 20, 2012)

it IS simple 

if anyone thinks that wtf style sparring is good for self defense, i submit that they have never been in a real fight.


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## leadleg (Mar 20, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> you're quite right. I dont believe any ruleset Ive seen is close to real fighting, some come closer than others obviously. But seriously, close your eyes and picture a streetfight in all its glory, then imagine two guys sparring wtf style and they are not even remotely similar.


Seriously, how do you picture a street fight "in all its glory", are you saying that training to control emotion, timing, distance, adrenalin rush....etc. has no value in training for self defense. How about getting hit hard, or getting out of the way or counter striking....nothing you need? Mebe you are so well trained that none of this could be of any help to you, then what about for a novice, no help there either? Or have you seen "scores "of fights where "heaps" of olympic fighters are beat down by "thousands" of real martial artists.


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## ATC (Mar 20, 2012)

I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.

Just because you can't do something does not mean it would not work or cannot work. You just can't make it work. I have a boxing background, TangSooDo background and TKD background and I have seen good punchers, kicker, and some good at both. I had an old master that once told me that if pitted against a good puncher he would use his feet, and if pitted against a good kicker he would use his hands. The lesson being that punchers tend to know what to do vs. other punchers as they train for that and kickers know what to do vs. kickers because they train for that. So again I say don't dismiss what you don't or can't do, many can make what you can't work, indeed work.

99% of all martial artist suck. 99% of all martial artist don't really train. The 1% in any art that do train, would rather easily destroy all of the 99% in any other art. So all this talk is just that, talk. Because just about everyone on this board falls in the 99%, and if pitted againt any actual WTF Olympic fighter would get owned in about 3 seconds. That also goes for any other world class fighter in any other style also. We would all get owned by any other styles at the world class level, regardless of what we practice.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 20, 2012)

it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.

all the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple FACT


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## ATC (Mar 20, 2012)

twin fist said:


> it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.
> 
> All the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple *fact*


*opinion.
*


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## miguksaram (Mar 20, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> it might be the best way to fight in that sport, but it is friggin stupid for self defense.
> 
> all the fan boy love on the planet wont change that simple FACT


It is not a fact.  Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter.  Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?

This is not to say that anyone can do it.  I am saying that there are those who can.


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## Kenlee25 (Mar 20, 2012)

ATC said:


> I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.
> 
> The show you are referring to is called Human Weapon. I've seen all of the episodes on youtube. I Highly recommend everyone watch the show.
> 
> ...


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 20, 2012)

Kenlee25 said:


> ATC said:
> 
> 
> > I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Mar 20, 2012)

and i absolutely agree that SOME can

can most?

no

why?

the style of fighting leaves the person WIDE OPEN which is fine for the rule set in question since it limits what can be done to you

when there are no limits to what can be used against you, leaving yourself wide open is STUPID

that is a fact



miguksaram said:


> It is not a fact.  Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter.  Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?
> 
> This is not to say that anyone can do it.  I am saying that there are those who can.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

ATC said:


> I think that if you narrow-mindedly dismiss any style of art you will not be properly prepared for it when it comes. Those that dismiss high or what they call flashy kicks would not be in any position to defend against any such kick once faced against it. Ask the two guys that use to do that show the where they went all over the world competing against different martial arts styles. The only style that both got rock in badly, (one got KO'd, and the other just flat out quit) was Olympic TKD. Neither knew what to do against someone that really knew what they were doing. These guys fought the some of the best in every style and held their own vs. each, except Olympic TKD.
> 
> Just because you can't do something does not mean it would not work or cannot work. You just can't make it work. I have a boxing background, TangSooDo background and TKD background and I have seen good punchers, kicker, and some good at both. I had an old master that once told me that if pitted against a good puncher he would use his feet, and if pitted against a good kicker he would use his hands. The lesson being that punchers tend to know what to do vs. other punchers as they train for that and kickers know what to do vs. kickers because they train for that. So again I say don't dismiss what you don't or can't do, many can make what you can't work, indeed work.
> 
> 99% of all martial artist suck. 99% of all martial artist don't really train. The 1% in any art that do train, would rather easily destroy all of the 99% in any other art. So all this talk is just that, talk. Because just about everyone on this board falls in the 99%, and if pitted againt any actual WTF Olympic fighter would get owned in about 3 seconds. That also goes for any other world class fighter in any other style also. We would all get owned by any other styles at the world class level, regardless of what we practice.



I have nothing to add to your excellent post. It's obvious that you know exactly what you are talking about.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

leadleg said:


> Seriously, how do you picture a street fight "in all its glory", are you saying that training to control emotion, timing, distance, adrenalin rush....etc. has no value in training for self defense. How about getting hit hard, or getting out of the way or counter striking....nothing you need? Mebe you are so well trained that none of this could be of any help to you, then what about for a novice, no help there either? Or have you seen "scores "of fights where "heaps" of olympic fighters are beat down by "thousands" of real martial artists.



LOL. I always say, if a person does not fight full contact A LOT, they will never develop these skills, much less understand them. It can be like trying to explain Rome to someone who has never been there.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

miguksaram said:


> It is not a fact.  Why? Because it all boils down to the fighter.  Are you saying Thai boxers could not use a nice high kick and knock someone out in the street?
> 
> This is not to say that anyone can do it.  I am saying that there are those who can.



You are right Jeremy, there are those that can and do.  And then there are those who can't


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## ATC (Mar 20, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Kenlee25 said:
> 
> 
> > Bill duff would have killed that guy if not for the ruleset. If for no other reason than he is 120kg and that little korean guy was about 60kg ringing wet. Bill duff would have just jumped on top of him . The other guy attempted a tornado kick after 1 weeks training which is just silly against someone experienced.
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Mar 20, 2012)

now you are just denying reality


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## RobinTKD (Mar 20, 2012)

A truly good fighter is just that, a Fighter. The best can take any rule-set and fight well, if not brilliantly in it. The same should be said of self defence. One point to take away, is that your Elite TKD fighter gets hit, full contact, for fun, because he chooses to, whereas the average street fighter probably hasn't been hit that hard too much. Part of any martial art is pain management, and if you can't do it at any level, then I agree that any rule-set (WTF, ITF) would be useless in a street fight.


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## Gorilla (Mar 20, 2012)

Th strategy used to win a match in Olympic style would not be very usefull in a fight.  Having said that the fitness,kicks  and will to win are very usefull.  The target areas and strategy in a fight are different.  Sport fighters know this.

The idea that sport Tkd fighters can't fight is a myth.  I have posted many videos of sport Tkd fighters that do very well at other styles and know how to adjust to SD situations.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Th strategy used to win a match in Olympic style would not be very usefull in a fight.  Having said that the fitness,kicks  and will to win are very usefull.  The target areas and strategy in a fight are different.  Sport fighters know this.
> 
> The idea that sport Tkd fighters can't fight is a myth.  I have posted many videos of sport Tkd fighters that do very well at other styles and know how to adjust to SD situations.



I agree with most of what you said, and half agree with your first statement. Some parts of the strategy use to win Olympic style Taekwondo matches might not directly apply to a street fight. Other strategies however do apply. Example getting your opponent to be penalized for warnings would not be directly related to a street fight, then again, some of those warnings might, like moving your opponent out of bounds.


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## Gorilla (Mar 20, 2012)

It is a game many strategies used are to score points.  I thinks the techs work the application does need to be different in my opinion.

I am open your opinion on what works.  We may agree.


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## mastercole (Mar 20, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> It is a game many strategies used are to score points.  I thinks the techs work the application does need to be different in my opinion.
> 
> I am open your opinion on what works.  We may agree.



Right.  I think a good example is the Daedo hogu.  My son just spent a weekend in Colorado training with Chris Martinez from Elite. Chris is a very motivated, articulate, knowledgeable and highly skilled fighter.
They spent a lot of time getting the feel for scoring on the Daedo.  My son said the impact has to be very direct. He also said that a shallow and very quick direct impact *snap* seems to score almost every time.  They were also kicking full force, directly into the hogu with round kick and barely scoring.  The straight back - back kick - no score. The sensor is in the arch of the foot, you have to get the foot with the toes and heal alignment nearly parallel to the ground, like a back side kick, so the arch cups the round shape of the hogu. This will slightly change some fighters back kick. He felt the back kick had to be hard to score.

Now that changes the self defense application from the original trembling shock - abrupt body displacement idea, which changes the amount of impact one needs to score. 

Personally I liked the Adidas Electronic hogu better. It depended on air pressure levels from impact. We have a set and fighter have to fold the other fighter in half to score. Medium blows, taps, or off angle blows do not score on the Adidas Electronic hogus we have.  To me, that keeps the original idea of full contact that would disable in self defense.  Daedo looses some of that.


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> What type of sparring do you use? I ask because you said you try to keep sparring as realistic as possible. In my opinion if you were to design a ruleset for sparring which looks as far from a realistic altercation as is humanly possible you would come up with wtf ruleset. Rarely in a realistic fight will you see kicks (particularly above waist height), rarely in a real fight will there not be at least 1 head punch within 2 seconds of the fight starting, rarely will you see two guys standing 4 feet from each other, rarely will a spin kick work in a real situation (even less likely will it be 'rewarded') etc. Dont get me wrong, where I train we use many different types of sparring and I find the olympic ruleset a lot of fun, but realistic, no way.


How many times have you seen a well trained and experienced taekwondoin involved in a street fight  in order to conclude that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee?  How many "realistic" situations involving well trained taekwondoin have you witnessed to determine that spin hook kicks would be rarely used. How many fight involving serious taekwondoin have you seen to conclude that they would encounter problems because a face punch was thrown 2 seconds after commencement of a fight, or that they would have difficulties in dealing with an opponent who was less than 4 feet away.

We too often base our anecdotal data on situations in which none of the combatants have any real training or experience in fighting. We hear stories and we are told things by people. We also sometimes use the unsupported anecdotal information that we gather in contradictory ways.

If its true that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee in "realistic" situations, wouldnt it be wise to relentlessly focus on training how to throw a roundhouse kick to the jaw or a spin kick to the temple with furious speed. Surprise and diversity of attack and counter attack are key to winning a fight. Why would one focus on perfecting to do things which everyone supposedly expects?

Assuming its true that a face punch is always thrown within 2 seconds of a so called "realistic" situation, wouldnt it also be prudent to train daily on how to keep ones distance and use footwork. Those are the thins that would allows one to use their own weapons without being hit? Just because lots of tough guys prefer to slug it out from less than 4 feet doesnt mean we should all stay tied to that range.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> How many times have you seen a well trained and experienced taekwondoin involved in a street fight  in order to conclude that kicks are rarely thrown above the knee?  How many "realistic" situations involving well trained taekwondoin have you witnessed to determine that spin hook kicks would be rarely used. How many fight involving serious taekwondoin have you seen to conclude that they would encounter problems because a face punch was thrown 2 seconds after commencement of a fight, or that they would have difficulties in dealing with an opponent who was less than 4 feet away.
> 
> We too often base our anecdotal data on situations in which none of the combatants have any real training or experience in fighting. We hear stories and we are told things by people. We also sometimes use the unsupported anecdotal information that we gather in contradictory ways.
> 
> ...


Everything I say is based soley on the street fights Ive seen, which are many. I also take onboard the info given to me by the many high ranking police officers I train with who see first hand all sorts of violence day to day in their job. Im obviosly watching the wrong streetfights though, because Ive never seen a head kick in a street fight, and the most consistent thing I see is punches to the head, that is most people's first attack, usually a right hook. You are entitled to your opinions but when it comes to subjects like these I prefer to take the advice of police officers and bouncers who see altercations everyday. You only have to look at "reality" based self defence systems and they arent teaching head kicks. There is a reason for this. I have also said countless times on martial talk that I have no doubt at all that an elite tkdoin will easily defend themself in a real situation, they are a finely tuned athlete at the peak of their powers. The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Everything I say is based soley on the street fights Ive seen, which are many. I also take onboard the info given to me by the many high ranking police officers I train with who see first hand all sorts of violence day to day in their job. Im obviosly watching the wrong streetfights though, because Ive never seen a head kick in a street fight,
> 
> *Ooh, I have! But it was a 6"3 guy foot-punting some 5"6 or so gent, in some kind of drunken arguement. It wasnt terribly effective, and it clearly wasnt a trained hit, but its been done.*
> 
> ...



Just My Contribution.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Just My Contribution.


I agree cyriacius. I train head kicks, there is a time and place for everything and the more things in your arsenal the better in my opinion. In saying that though, Id love to see a breakdown of techniques most commonly used in street fights, I dare say head kicks wont be one of them. My original post was in relation to wtf ruleset and how it compares to a 'real fight', Im obviously watching the wrong fights because the ones I see look closer to a rugby match than they do to a wtf bout.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree cyriacius. I train head kicks, there is a time and place for everything and the more things in your arsenal the better in my opinion. In saying that though, Id love to see a breakdown of techniques most commonly used in street fights, I dare say head kicks wont be one of them. My original post was in relation to wtf ruleset and how it compares to a 'real fight', Im obviously watching the wrong fights because the ones I see look closer to a rugby match than they do to a wtf bout.


Yeah - Or more accurately, Rugby can resemble Wrestling with Ball Kicking (The Football), and the odd brawl. And Wrestling and Football like Kicks and Barrages of Punches more or less describes most Fights. Coupled with the fact the majority of Adult Males in this Country have at some stage played Football, its natural that itd translate over a touch.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Yeah - Or more accurately, Rugby can resemble Wrestling with Ball Kicking (The Football), and the odd brawl. And Wrestling and Football like Kicks and Barrages of Punches more or less describes most Fights. Coupled with the fact the majority of Adult Males in this Country have at some stage played Football, its natural that itd translate over a touch.


Id definetly resort to rugby in a fight


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Id definetly resort to rugby in a fight


Rugby: The Art of Self Defense.
Hehe.

Seriously though, some of the High Tackles in Rugby are generally good things to know. As Illegal as They may be in the Sport.


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## StudentCarl (Mar 22, 2012)

Inconsistent surfaces are, IMO, the biggest overlooked factor in higher kicking on the street, though tight clothing can't be ignored either. Ever work your kicks on gravel, in mud, or on a sticky surface? I think it's a stretch to reduce shihap kyorugi to only head kicks, but even in a match those have to be set up. Off the mat or floor, there are more variables. I agree that you could get yourself in trouble if you don't know what your doing. Everybody gets to make their own decisions.

At the same time, other posts have mentioned the conditioning to contact, balance and agility, timing, and mindset/focus that are developed in full contact sparring. Two of the least mentioned skills developed sparring are strike timing and reading the opponent. Folks who focus only on the kicks are maybe not understanding what leads up to it. If kicking people was as easy as breaking a stationary board, we'd all be amazing. Instead, take basic agility with good timing and reading of opponent: if someone can read and time you, do you think the only danger is from their foot at your head?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

StudentCarl said:


> Inconsistent surfaces are, IMO, the biggest overlooked factor in higher kicking on the street, though tight clothing can't be ignored either. Ever work your kicks on gravel, in mud, or on a sticky surface? I think it's a stretch to reduce shihap kyorugi to only head kicks, but even in a match those have to be set up. Off the mat or floor, there are more variables. I agree that you could get yourself in trouble if you don't know what your doing. Everybody gets to make their own decisions.
> 
> At the same time, other posts have mentioned the conditioning to contact, balance and agility, timing, and mindset/focus that are developed in full contact sparring. Two of the least mentioned skills developed sparring are strike timing and reading the opponent. Folks who focus only on the kicks are maybe not understanding what leads up to it. If kicking people was as easy as breaking a stationary board, we'd all be amazing. Instead, take basic agility with good timing and reading of opponent: if someone can read and time you, do you think the only danger is from their foot at your head?


Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?


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## dancingalone (Mar 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?



Asphalt on a very hot day, perhaps a road or even some types of basketball and tennis courts.


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## StudentCarl (Mar 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Now Im curious. This may just be a brainfart, but, a Sticky Surface?



I mean it relatively rather than standing in adhesive. Training barefoot on a relatively smooth surface gets you used to a certain, fairly light amount of friction. It's harder to kick well if you have too much traction for your plant foot to turn. I agree that, in most cases, the risk is too little traction rather than too much...but either one can throw you off.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Asphalt on a very hot day, perhaps a road or even some types of basketball and tennis courts.



Thanks;



StudentCarl said:


> I mean it relatively rather than standing in adhesive. Training barefoot on a relatively smooth surface gets you used to a certain, fairly light amount of friction. It's harder to kick well if you have too much traction for your plant foot to turn. I agree that, in most cases, the risk is too little traction rather than too much...but either one can throw you off.



It wouldnt really affect Me then. I wear work boots through most of the day for... Well, work. I learnt long ago that You cant always, and shouldnt rely on being able to turn Your Foot from its place on the ground.

Thanks!


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Just yesterday one of my students asked me to teach him a jump spinning crescent kick.  I taught him the kick.  He asked if it's something I would use in self defense and I said....nope.


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## terryl965 (Mar 22, 2012)

Lets see how often would I use a fancy kick, here is my answer the same amount of time I need to use self defense. Not that often it is just fun to be able to do them..


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis.



Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

Originally Posted by *ralphmcpherson* 


_The average black belt training a couple of nights a week at the local dojo throwing headkicks in a real situation is a vastly different story. A very small % of all tkdoin are elite. The bottom line is anything 'could' work in a real fight, its just that different things have different chances of actually working on a regular basis, and anyone who thinks head kicks are a high percentage technique for the real world really needs to go and talk with some people who deal with 'real' altercations on a daily basis._



Archtkd said:


> Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?



Amazing. Historical. I don't think such a study have ever been conducted before. How would one go about such a study?  Maybe pre-street fight interview and post street fight interview? I mean you have to find out somehow what their martial art style was, or what their skill level is. Or maybe they had on their uniform with Taekwondo written on the back, and big gold bars on their belts. That would make it much easier I think. Making out a statistical study sheet ahead of time and marking down all the intricacies of each street fight might be necessary?  Of course one would have to live in a place, or travel to a place where street fights between brawlers and Taekwondoin took place almost daily. To find - or happen upon such a place must have been difficult, or maybe just sheer luck. To bad those witnessing the street fights between brawlers and Taekwondoin all forgot to bring their cell phones to each and every street fight, each and every time, or maybe only one person showed up to witness these tons of matches and did not own a cell phone. Otherwise we could all be watching ton's of these street fights on Youtube. It could have turn the Taekwondo world upside down


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Yes you've seen tons of street fights and have numerous sources of altercation data, but you didn' t answer my basic question. How many taekwondoin, even your average blackbelt who trains twice a week, have you seen in a street fight? Of all the altercations that your police buddies talk about in your dojang, how many involved experienced blackbelts from any martial art?


Heaps of good stories come from the police I train with about trained martial artists getting into altercations. Some of them are quite funny actually, in most of them the martial artist wins and wins easily, and then gets arrested lol. They dont win by throwing headkicks though. Ive been out a few times with tkd black belts who have been in fights, they usually win, but again, no head kicks. Do yourself a favour, go to a police training centre or a reality based MA club and explain to them how well you believe head kicks work in a real fight. You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.


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## seasoned (Mar 22, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Lets see how often would I use a fancy kick, here is my answer the same amount of time I need to use self defense. Not that often it is just fun to be able to do them..


This my friend is why I like your posts, original............. And funny.


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Heaps of good stories come from the police I train with about trained martial artists getting into altercations. Some of them are quite funny actually, in most of them the martial artist wins and wins easily, and then gets arrested lol. They dont win by throwing headkicks though. Ive been out a few times with tkd black belts who have been in fights, they usually win, but again, no head kicks. Do yourself a favour, go to a police training centre or a reality based MA club and explain to them how well you believe head kicks work in a real fight. You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.



Thanks. The advise you've given me about visiting cop training centers and "reality" based MA clubs is very interesting. I now get a better understanding of how you make assumptions and conclusions about things. Keep preparing for the inevitable street fight you are going to get involved in because the anecdotal data you have gathered  indicates you live in a hostile place where there are heaps of fights involving trained martial artists and street thugs. Did the police ever ask the tons of martial artists who engage in street fights why they never threw head kicks?


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Thanks. The advise you've given me about visiting cop training centers and "reality" based MA clubs is very interesting. I now get a better understanding of how you make assumptions and conclusions about things. Keep preparing for the inevitable street fight you are going to get involved in because the anecdotal data you have gathered  indicates you live in a hostile place where there are heaps of fights involving trained martial artists and street thugs. Did the police ever ask the tons of martial artists who engage in street fights why they never threw head kicks?


I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

An actual somebody is trying to kill you fight is messy and unpredictable.  For me at least high kicking is just something where the risks outweigh the rewards.  I can kick high and I enjoy doing it, it's fun, but if somebody is trying to kill me....I keep it simple and get the job of staying alive done as quickly as possible.

For the record I was an Air Force Security Policeman for four years.  We had the benefit of our sidearm and most of our police training focused on using that.


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## seasoned (Mar 22, 2012)

I think it is age related. At a certain age, it is just too much work. This is the way it was meant to be, older means tighter means lower kicks means better self defense. Of course at my age it makes perfect sense, to me.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.



I would never ask a police officer any advise related to physical self defense, and I would not recommend anyone to seek out self defense advise from a police officer. They function under very different rules, criminals and general populations react very differently with officers than they do with civilians. I have seen much better advise from a few posters on MT. 

I guess I am different in that I do live in a dangerous place and have all my life. I know violence, danger, fear, etc. up close and personal, and have all my life. So it ends up the other way around. For years, the City of Cleveland (USA) comes to me for self defense training of it's new cadets who will be dealing with criminals in the streets of one of America's most dangerous cities. According to what they tell me, the things they have learned from me and my crew has saved their lives, and the lives of others.  






[/IMG]

That's me in the yellow shirt at my school in Cleveland, opposite in white, the dark skinned man is my teaching partner for the course and junior. He is a respected and feared man in East Cleveland/Cleveland. He did double prison terms for serious violent crimes, converted to Islam in prison and is the head Imam of the main Mosque in East Cleveland where he tries to make a positive change in his community. But if you know anything about East Cleveland, you know that may take a very long time.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.



Especially just after closing time, when everyone goes to leave.




mastercole said:


> I would never ask a police officer any advise related to physical self defense, and I would not recommend anyone to seek out self defense advise from a police officer. They function under very different rules, criminals and general populations react very differently with officers than they do with civilians. I have seen much better advise from a few posters on MT.
> 
> I guess I am different in that I do live in a dangerous place and have all my life. I know violence, danger, fear, etc. up close and personal, and have all my life. So it ends up the other way around. For years, the City of Cleveland (USA) comes to me for self defense training of it's new cadets who will be dealing with criminals in the streets of one of America's most dangerous cities. According to what they tell me, the things they have learned from me and my crew has saved their lives, and the lives of others.
> 
> ...



Good to see, Good Sir


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## Buka (Mar 22, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I think it is age related. At a certain age, it is just too much work. This is the way it was meant to be, older means tighter means lower kicks means better self defense. Of course at my age it makes perfect sense, to me.



That's an Amen AND a Hallelujah right there, brother.


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

Instructor said:


> For the record I was an Air Force Security Policeman for four years.  We had the benefit of our sidearm and most of our police training focused on using that.



Precisely


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> Precisely


I think you misunderstand me regarding advice from police officers. I wouldnt ask a police officer "how" to street fight. They operate under different rules, they have a fire arm, they cant just go around knocking people out etc. I remember one police officer I train with telling me the people he fears the most in his line of work are old ladies gone mad because they almost always end up brandishing a steak knife and because they are old and frail you cant be too rough with them. So as I said, they face different circumstances to me or you. BUT, police officers see literally thousands of street fights, altercations, domestics etc etc and they are a wealth of knowledge regarding what people do in street fights and what works in street fights because they just see so many of them. Actually a good friend of mine owns a pub in a pretty bad part of town and has people kicked out for fighting on a very regular basis, he would see more pub/street fights than most. When I next see him, I'll ask how often he has see one of these fights end with a head kick. The original statement I made was that wtf ruleset does not resemble a 'real' fight, so if Im incorrect surely he will tell me that he sees brawls all the time in his pub where head kicks are used and punches to the face are rare.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think you miunderstand me regarding advice from police officers. I wouldnt ask a police officer "how" to street fight. They operate under different rules, they have a fire arm, they cant just go around knocking people out etc. I remember one police officer I train with telling me the people he fears the most in his line of work are old ladies gone mad because they almost always end up brandishing a steak knife and because they are old and frail you cant be too rough with them. So as I said, they face different circumstances to me or you. BUT, police officers see literally thousands of street fights, altercations, domestics etc etc and they are a wealth of knowledge regarding what people do in street fights and what works in street fights because they just see so many of them. Actually a good friend of mine owns a pub in a pretty bad part of town and has people kicked out for fighting on a very regular basis, he would see more pub/street fights than most. When I next see him, I'll ask how often he has see one of these fights end with a head kick.



While you are at it, ask him about spear hand and crane-neck wrist strikes, maybe they have replaced kicks in street fights. I once saw them used in the TV series Kungfu.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

mastercole said:


> While you are at it, ask him about spear hand and crane-neck wrist strikes, maybe they have replaced kicks in street fights. I once saw them used in the TV series Kungfu.


On a serious note, I believe many people base their assumptions of what will happen in a 'real' fight based on what they see in kung fu movies. The younger students in particular often say that a certain technique will work because of something they saw jackie chan or bruce lee do. They get a real nasty shock the first time they get into a real fight. In the kung fu movies people seem to have a wealth of time on their hands, the punches and kicks are crisp and each guy attacks one after the other. The floor is never slippery, they just happen to be walking the street in kick pants, the fights are never sloppy and you can actually flip people and defend against guys with knives. As we get older we get wiser and actually get into a few fights and see mates in fights and realise just how chaotic, sloppy and 'simplistic' real fights are. Probably one of the reasons that boxers usually make good street fighters.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> On a serious note, I believe many people base their assumptions of what will happen in a 'real' fight based on what they see in kung fu movies. The younger students in particular often say that a certain technique will work because of something they saw jackie chan or bruce lee do. They get a real nasty shock the first time they get into a real fight. In the kung fu movies people seem to have a wealth of time on their hands, the punches and kicks are crisp and each guy attacks one after the other. The floor is never slippery, they just happen to be walking the street in kick pants, the fights are never sloppy and you can actually flip people and defend against guys with knives. As we get older we get wiser and actually get into a few fights and see mates in fights and realise just how chaotic, sloppy and 'simplistic' real fights are. Probably one of the reasons that boxers usually make good street fighters.



Case in point;

Bruce Lee:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtnSwm6ajsk&list=WLEAB784316E1B7788&index=58&feature=plpp_video
Wow. Thats amazing. Hes really talented.

Some guy:




Huh. Apparently He just kicked harder than Bruce Lee.

The Point:
Kung Fu Movies dramatise things, like when the little chinese dude goes into the big scary Karate Dojo and beats everyone up.
Id say "Warrior" had better Choreography than any Kung Fu Movie ever.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Case in point;
> 
> Bruce Lee:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtnSwm6ajsk&list=WLEAB784316E1B7788&index=58&feature=plpp_video
> ...


they are what you make of them. As a teenager me and my mates would watch those movies and marvel at what they did, we would train in the backyard and try to use the same defences the 'kung fu' guys did so we could get better at 'fighting'. Now, years on, we sit back and watch those movies and we still marvel at what those guys do, but these days we have a little chuckle at what they are doing knowing its just a movie. Then we go outside and punch the bag for an hour or so. Because of this I can understand why the less experienced people watch these movies and come up with all sorts of scenarios about what happens in 'real fights'. We have to do a full speed self defence scenario as part of our black belt gradings and it must go for about a minute or so. The young, inexperienced guys get up and 'save the day' with a barrage of spinning kicks and jumps and amazing knockouts, then the older guys who have been around a bit do theirs and its the complete opposite. I think its all a part of maturing, as a martial artist and person. My instructor always says he can tell who has real experience fighting by what they do in their self defence scenario.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 22, 2012)

the problem is, people see really EALLY good blackbelts do something in the school, they think THEY can pull it off in the street......

i dont care what herb perez or anderson silva can pull off in competition, you MIGHT get away with it on the street, but you cant DEPEND on it working, if you do, you will regret it



ralphmcpherson said:


> You continue believing your fancy head kicks will save you from the bad guy, I just hope for your sake you never have to test the theory.


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I certainly dont live in a hostile place. I was a proffessional musician for years and my job was playing clubs and pubs 6 nights a week, often not coming on stage until after midnight. You spend that much time in pubs and clubs and you will see a lot of fights, its just the nature of combining young males and alcohol unfortunately. Again, if I want advice on an art, or a technique, or poomsae or sparring etc this is the place to come, however if I require advice on violent altercations I will take the advice of experienced police officers over people's opinions on a martial arts board.



So is your training geared toward protecting yourself in drunken bar fights, with a methodology based on info culled from drunks exchanging blows and data and advise filtered from cop stories? What is the role of your sabum in all this?

Oh, and I know one or two things about the "real" world and that knowledge doesn&#8217;t stop me from making a daily effort of sharpening one of my main weapons: my legs. 

I live in a place that last year was infamously ranked (http://urbantitan.com/10-most-dangerous-cities-in-the-world-in-2011/) as the most dangerous city in America and the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] most dangerous city in the world: St. Louis, Missouri. Three years ago there was a gun fight outside my dojang at about 7 p.m. Two years ago a rookie student of mine was gunned down in the city, and I didn&#8217;t know about it because his death was buried deep inside the newspaper, overtaken by a page one story, about a deadly shootout of gangbangers at a wake in a funeral home, a few blocks from my dojang.
In the early 1990s I lived and attended university, worked and taught and studied taekwondo in another city with high ranking on the most dangerous city list, Kankakee, Illinois. This was at the height of the crack cocaine wars. In my early journalism day, I worked on the police beat for the Daily Journal (Kankakee) and later went on to cover major crimes as part of my newsman job for the Associated Press.  

My taekwondo students &#8211; in a predominantly adult dojang -- include people who know violence in and out. They include old-school taekwondoin, elite special forces vets, regular military vets, cops, and security personnel.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 22, 2012)

i am getting more and more convinced there are several people on this board who have never in thier lives been hit by an ungloved hand.....


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i am getting more and more convinced there are several people on this board who have never in thier lives been hit by an ungloved hand.....


I couldnt agree more.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i am getting more and more convinced there are several people on this board who have never in thier lives been hit by an ungloved hand.....



Oh man...it sucks!


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

A boxer hit me once without the glove.  He had his hands wrapped really tightly with some kind of tape.  It was like getting hit with a rock.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> So is your training geared toward protecting yourself in drunken bar fights, with a methodology based on info culled from drunks exchanging blows and data and advise filtered from cop stories? What is the role of your sabum in all this?
> 
> Oh, and I know one or two things about the "real" world and that knowledge doesn&#8217;t stop me from making a daily effort of sharpening one of my main weapons: my legs.
> 
> ...


Our training is geared towards self defence, whether it be in a pub, a dark alley, the school yard, walking along the street, wherever it may occur. My instructor's role in this is to best prepare us for these sorts of altercations. He regularly seeks advice from two 6th dan high ranking police officers who train in our class, he quite often lets them take the class and they run us through a variety of self defence scenarios which is always interesting and informative, especially considering one of them works in training police recruits in unarmed fighting. Our school has a curriculum yet lets each instructor put their own 'flavour' to what they teach. My instructor's 'flavour' is making sure his students are are as best prepared as possible to defend themself, he is the first to admit that there is no sure fire way to ensure everyone can fight if need be, but does his best to cover all areas of attacking and being attacked. He loves kicking and teaches a lot of kicking but is sure to keep us 'realistic' as to what the higher % techniques are. Most of his defence is centred around defending things that will most probably occur in a real situation. He teaches wtf sparring to improve our reflexes, distancing, timing and to help improve our kicking. He uses many other forms of sparring though because he believes constant sparring under that ruleset encourages bad habits not conducive to real situations. His favourite form of sparring is a 'knockdown' type where basically anything goes (except for the obvious) and the idea is to knock your opponent to the floor as quickly as possible.


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## Archtkd (Mar 22, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> His favourite form of sparring is a 'knockdown' type where basically anything goes (except for the obvious) and the idea is to knock your opponent to the floor as quickly as possible.


 That sounds interesting. Do you have a line of people doing it? Meaning does the person who wins remain standing until someone knocks him to the floor? What are the basic takedowns used?


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> That sounds interesting. Do you have a line of people doing it? Meaning does the person who wins remain standing until someone knocks him to the floor? What are the basic takedowns used?



Knocking down high kickers is not really all that difficult.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Instructor said:


> A boxer hit me once without the glove.  He had his hands wrapped really tightly with some kind of tape.  It was like getting hit with a rock.



I got in a fight in high school with a boxer (I didnt know at the time he was a boxer), I had been doing a couple of years of shotokan at the time and when the fight started I threw two good front kicks, the second one got him pretty good. Just as I was thinking I had him covered he hit me with so many punches to the face I didnt know what was happening. Each one hurt, and hurt bad. I tried to defend my face, so he just pounded my ribs and stomach. In no time I was lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded. I still have nightmares about that, the punches were like bullets.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 22, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> That sounds interesting. Do you have a line of people doing it? Meaning does the person who wins remain standing until someone knocks him to the floor? What are the basic takedowns used?


He mixes it up a lot. He also mixes up the ruleset in this form a lot to keep us on our toes. Usually we get a partner, spar fro 30 seconds and then rotate clockwise so we get to spar a few different people. Once experienced, it gets rarer that someone gets knocked down as it really improves your evasiveness. Most times someone is knocked down  its because of a quick combination, such as a couple of quick punches, then a sidekick. Against lower belts, they will generally charge in with no thought of self preservation and end up charging into a prop side kick. It really varies though, as most people work to their strengths and everyone has diffent strengths obviously. Turning side kick works a lot, or a good punch. Usually a good punch is evaded leaving the defender off balance and then they are easy to knockdown. Knowing your opponent's main goal is to knock you down as quickly as possible, and vice versa, gives you a different mindset to normal sparring where people are going for points or combinations. It works well in conjunction with other forms of sparring. Its great fun, give it a try. Another one we do is to have 5 people with 4 on each corner of a square (5m x 5m) with one in the middle. When the instructor yells "go" one of the 4 can run in and try to knock the guy in the middle down, each time the instructor yells "go" a different attacker shouts and then runs in and takes over while the other returns to the vacant corner. The idea for the attackers (who can come in in any order they like) is to send in whoever is in the defenders blindspot each time. The instructor mixes up how long each attacker is in there for, it may be 30 seconds, it may be 5 seconds, it may be 1 second. The guy in the middle gets a real workout and has no idea who will come in next so must keep an eye on all angles. This one is heaps of fun.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Yep....boxing, safe to say is the king of all punching.


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## mastercole (Mar 22, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Knocking down high kickers is not really all that difficult.



Unless of course the high kick knocks you out before you can do anything about it, then it becomes very difficult. 

It's the skill of the kicker compared to the kicked that determines everything when it comes to kicking. I can certainly down a person of low skill who attempts to kick me high, or anywhere for that matter. However, a highly skilled elite kicker can kick a lower skill person from the bottom of their ****, to the top of their head at will.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 23, 2012)

keep thinking that


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## Instructor (Mar 23, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Unless of course the high kick knocks you out before you can do anything about it, then it becomes very difficult.
> 
> It's the skill of the kicker compared to the kicked that determines everything when it comes to kicking. I can certainly down a person of low skill who attempts to kick me high, or anywhere for that matter. However, a highly skilled elite kicker can kick a lower skill person from the bottom of their ****, to the top of their head at will.



Admittedly I seldom run across kickers of that skill level.


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## Instructor (Mar 23, 2012)

I am not saying I am king high kicker of the universe but I taught my white belts how to sidestep and knock me on my *** in an afternoon and I've been kicking for 20 years or so.


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## Emanuelle (Mar 23, 2012)

Most Taekwondo clubs in my area have a mandatory self-defence lesson once a week in addition to Olympic sparring the rest of the week, the fast, relatively complex or 'fancy' kicks help with balance, coordination and a bunch of the other stuff, and in the weekly SD lessons we learn practical variations of those techniques amongst others. It's a good system, and besides, most guys you encounter on the street will be taken aback, if only momentarily, if you unleash a barrage of fancy kicks, if you can manage them off.

Just my two cents,


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## Gorilla (Mar 23, 2012)

Emanulle... Exactly...great post


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## Archtkd (Mar 23, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Knocking down high kickers is not really all that difficult.



 So is knocking down punchers with slow feet


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## Archtkd (Mar 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I got in a fight in high school with a boxer (I didnt know at the time he was a boxer), I had been doing a couple of years of shotokan at the time and when the fight started I threw two good front kicks, the second one got him pretty good. Just as I was thinking I had him covered he hit me with so many punches to the face I didnt know what was happening. Each one hurt, and hurt bad. I tried to defend my face, so he just pounded my ribs and stomach. In no time I was lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded. I still have nightmares about that, the punches were like bullets.



If you threw two good front kicks how come he was left standing? What was good about the kicks?


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## Cyriacus (Mar 23, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> If you threw two good front kicks how come he was left standing? What was good about the kicks?


I imagine the issue was Range.

Boxers get hit in the Midsection literally every time They Spar. Theyre used to it. Alot.
In order for a Front Kick to have been effective, it would have needed to have a good push in it. And for there to have been two Front Kicks, I imagine They werent too linear.

I also imagine They were good because They were forceful.


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## ATC (Mar 23, 2012)

I let my son read this thred. He is an up and coming Olympic style competitor. He can throw the all of the fancy kicks with relitive ease, and this is what he said.

If in a street fight he would kick the body, then once bent over he would kick the head. He said that most people would be done from simple kicks to the body and that head kicks would not really be needed. He says that he only kicks to the head in competition becaues it scores more points. He also said that it is hard to kick people in competiton to the head because they train to look out for them. He states kicking people that don't train to defend from head kicks is easy and if in a street fight he could most likely kick anyone in the head easily if they were just non martial artist. So after that thought he said he would still kick the body first but if he could tell they were not tained he would end it quickly with a head kick.

When you compete you get to the point where you asses your opponent rather quickly. This is just how competitors think. This then leads me back to my statement of, if you can you will, and if you can't you won't. Many can't so they just put down or dismiss head, high, fancy, whatever kicks. The ones that can know when to and will. Those that think they can, but are not that good at it, will try and some will succeed, and some will fail. Simple as that.

No one can 100% say it works, and know one can 100% say it does not. It is up to each individual and that individuals skill level.


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## Archtkd (Mar 23, 2012)

ATC said:


> This then leads me back to my statement of, if you can you will, and if you can't you won't. Many can't so they just put down or dismiss head, high, fancy, whatever kicks. The ones that can know when to and will. Those that think they can, but are not that good at it, will try and some will succeed, and some will fail. Simple as that.
> 
> No one can 100% say it works, and know one can 100% say it does not. It is up to each individual and that individuals skill level.



Thank your son for us for his input in a great post.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 23, 2012)

ATC said:


> I let my son read this thred. He is an up and coming Olympic style competitor. He can throw the all of the fancy kicks with relitive ease, and this is what he said.
> 
> If in a street fight he would kick the body, then once bent over he would kick the head. He said that most people would be done from simple kicks to the body and that head kicks would not really be needed. He says that he only kicks to the head in competition becaues it scores more points. He also said that it is hard to kick people in competiton to the head because they train to look out for them. He states kicking people that don't train to defend from head kicks is easy and if in a street fight he could most likely kick anyone in the head easily if they were just non martial artist. So after that thought he said he would still kick the body first but if he could tell they were not tained he would end it quickly with a head kick.
> 
> ...



When will He be old enough to make an Account on here?


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 23, 2012)

ATC said:


> This then leads me back to my statement of, if you can you will, and if you can't you won't.



This is, I think, the most concise and accurate summation possible.

Circumstances are infinately variable, so it seems more than a little foolish to declare any technique or combination of techniques unusable.

That being said, I'll add that I've used high kicks effectively in a street fight. I'll also say that it was a lot easier to do so at 17 than it likely would be today.


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## Instructor (Mar 23, 2012)

Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.


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## Miles (Mar 23, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.



Guro Dan Inosanto comes to our school every year and purportedly was once asked if head kicks were effective.  He promptly swept his assistant to the ground and gestured as though he was kicking the fellow in the head while saying, "yes, head kicks are effective."  One of the arts Guro Dan teaches is Silat in which hand techniques are used to strike an attacker's feet.  In my Taekwondo class, I have taught punching/striking to the thighs and below (if I found myself on the ground, I'd punch/elbow my attacker's knee/thigh/groin as the situation presented itself).  My (rather obtuse) point is that I wouldn't rule out punching the feet.


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## lubowiem (Mar 23, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I had no idea what sort of sparring you did, thats why the first line of my post was "what type of sparring do you use?". Your sparring sounds very similar to ours. If we drop our guard we get push ups, and lots of them.



Sounds similar to ours as well, however, if we drop our guard, we get punched in the head!


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## ATC (Mar 23, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> When will He be old enough to make an Account on here?


Ha ha ha...Yeah I know. Too busy with school, trainng and assisting. In the dojang everyday from 5PM to close.


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## mastercole (Mar 23, 2012)

Miles said:


> Guro Dan Inosanto comes to our school every year and purportedly was once asked if head kicks were effective.  He promptly swept his assistant to the ground and gestured as though he was kicking the fellow in the head while saying, "yes, head kicks are effective."  One of the arts Guro Dan teaches is Silat in which hand techniques are used to strike an attacker's feet.  In my Taekwondo class, I have taught punching/striking to the thighs and below (if I found myself on the ground, I'd punch/elbow my attacker's knee/thigh/groin as the situation presented itself).  My (rather obtuse) point is that I wouldn't rule out punching the feet.



Yes, excellent. We do the same. We teach the concept that you can strike anywhere available, and effectively, as long as your basic technique skill is good.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 23, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Kicking the head is about as logical as punching the feet.


Id call an exception as being Kicks designed to hit High.
A Jumping Front Kick for example, aint fancy, or particularly hard. But aim it at the Midsection and thats a bit silly.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> If you threw two good front kicks how come he was left standing? What was good about the kicks?


I believe a 'good' kick is a kick which achieves its purpose. A kick is not only deemed 'good' if your opponent ends up in hospital. My shotokan instructor was very very anti fighting, basically if he found out you got into a fight without a very good reason, you would cop the third degree, which was very scary for a teenager. My instructor's son was in my grade at school and I was very aware this fight would get back to him. The number 1 intention of my front kicks was to get him back pedalling so I could rugby tackle him or something similar. My two kicks went straight to his rib cage and he was back pedalling rapidly with a very worried look on his face, therfore my kicks achieved exactly what I intended so I deem them good kicks. Kicks can create distance, among other things, I believe only novices believe a "good" kick needs to destroy your opponent.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 23, 2012)

ATC said:


> I let my son read this thred. He is an up and coming Olympic style competitor. He can throw the all of the fancy kicks with relitive ease, and this is what he said.
> 
> If in a street fight he would kick the body, then once bent over he would kick the head. He said that most people would be done from simple kicks to the body and that head kicks would not really be needed. He says that he only kicks to the head in competition becaues it scores more points. He also said that it is hard to kick people in competiton to the head because they train to look out for them. He states kicking people that don't train to defend from head kicks is easy and if in a street fight he could most likely kick anyone in the head easily if they were just non martial artist. So after that thought he said he would still kick the body first but if he could tell they were not tained he would end it quickly with a head kick.
> 
> ...


Your son raises a good point ATC. When I say "head kick", I am talking about a kick aimed at the head when the head is at head level. Ive seen many a fight end successfully with a head kick once the guy is slouched over and his head is around waist level. I do it in sparring all the time. When I say head kicks are not 'advisable' in real situations and that there are higher percentage techniques which should be encouraged, I am talking about kicks to the head of a standing person.


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## Archtkd (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I believe a 'good' kick is a kick which achieves its purpose. A kick is not only deemed 'good' if your opponent ends up in hospital. My shotokan instructor was very very anti fighting, basically if he found out you got into a fight without a very good reason, you would cop the third degree, which was very scary for a teenager. My instructor's son was in my grade at school and I was very aware this fight would get back to him. The number 1 intention of my front kicks was to get him back pedalling so I could rugby tackle him or something similar. My two kicks went straight to his rib cage and he was back pedalling rapidly with a very worried look on his face, therfore my kicks achieved exactly what I intended so I deem them good kicks. Kicks can create distance, among other things, I believe only novices believe a "good" kick needs to destroy your opponent.



 I may be a novice, but if your earlier posting is accurate; your theories about kicking and possibly fighting in general left you &#8220;lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded.&#8221; 

Seriously, I&#8217;m beginning to feel like we have we have a vast cultural divide that would be very hard to fill. You say you live in a world where &#8220;reality,&#8221; is casual fighting &#8211; of the school, bar room and street variety,  in which &#8220;heaps&#8221; of trained martial arts participate, win and walk home to tell the tale. A world where an arrest for fighting on the streets and bars is something to laugh out loud  about, with police buddies in the dojang.  

Fighting in my neck of the woods is never casual. An arrest for anything, especially of a martial arts practitioner, is nothing to laugh about. Also, the chances that you won&#8217;t walk home after a &#8220;realistic&#8221; altercation are very high. So yes, for some of us in this world we learn how to punch and kick with that knowledge. We train to, or try to get to a level where the reason we fear kicking and punching to the head is not because we can&#8217;t do it, but it&#8217;s because we begin having apprehensions about the consequence of what those kicks and punches can do. At a certain stage we begin to fear hurting as much as we fear being hurt. I think this what you call &#8220;novice&#8221; thinking.

Oh, and when we train we don&#8217;t use complicated terms, tell people we are doing anything special or consult the police. We admit we are simply doing Kukkiwon style taekwondo in which learning how to punch and kick is part of the training.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> I may be a novice, but if your earlier posting is accurate; your theories about kicking and possibly fighting in general left you &#8220;lying on the ground covered in blood from a broken nose and two black eyes and badly winded.&#8221;
> 
> Seriously, I&#8217;m beginning to feel like we have we have a vast cultural divide that would be very hard to fill. You say you live in a world where &#8220;reality,&#8221; is casual fighting &#8211; of the school, bar room and street variety,  in which &#8220;heaps&#8221; of trained martial arts participate, win and walk home to tell the tale. A world where an arrest for fighting on the streets and bars is something to laugh out loud  about, with police buddies in the dojang.
> 
> ...


I dont think there is that large of a cultural divide. Go to any club or pub late at night and chances are you will see a fight, thus the reason most clubs employ 6-10 bouncers. Young males, full of testosterone and alcohol will always get into fights. Martial arts and young males seems to go hand in hand at the moment, particularly boxing and muay thai, Id say at least 50% of the young guys I know do some form of martial arts, so its really no surprise that a large % of people who get in fights have martial arts experience. There is also no "laughing out aloud" with police buddies in the dojang about arrests for fights (I dont know where that concept came from). When you train with a police officer and are close friends with them and socialise together and do martial arts together it is only natural that at some point they will discuss their work, just as I discuss my work with them. I also wouldnt say "heaps of martial artists participate, win and walk home to tell the tale". Some win, some lose. "Casual fighting" as you put it,  happens, in school yards, pubs, clubs, etc everywhere in all countries all over the world. You cant seriously sit there and tell me there are no fights occuring in school yards, pubs, clubs etc in the US.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 24, 2012)

like i said, too many people that have never been hit by an ungloved hand.....


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## Archtkd (Mar 24, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> like i said, too many people that have never been hit by an ungloved hand.....



Twin Fist: You don't know my father.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 24, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Go to any club or pub late at night and chances are you will see a fight, thus the reason most clubs employ 6-10 bouncers. Young males, full of testosterone and alcohol will always get into fights.



Especially during that 5-15 minutes after closing time.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 24, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Especially during that 5-15 minutes after closing time.


You're right there, you can bet your house you will see a fight during that period, and it has nothing to do with a cultural divide either. you can also bet your house you wont be seeing too many 'fancy' kicks getting around there either. Twin fist's point is a good one. Two black eyes and a blood nose sounds impressive, but that just two quick jabs for a good boxer, and the worst part is that you wont see it coming.


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## Archtkd (Mar 25, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> You're right there, you can bet your house you will see a fight during that period, and it has nothing to do with a cultural divide either. you can also bet your house you wont be seeing too many 'fancy' kicks getting around there either. Twin fist's point is a good one. Two black eyes and a blood nose sounds impressive, but that just two quick jabs for a good boxer, and the worst part is that you wont see it coming.



You don't get it, do you?  You don't see any kicking because people who know how to kick and punch for that matter, rarely find themselves in the type of "reality" situations you are basing your entire debate on. Here's how bar fights go in my neck of the woods: These are just a few of the events that have occurred here recently. And by the way, I boxed for nearly nine years, still have fast hands, but I just happen to have kicked longer. Due to that. my dojang has a reputation for having  folks who can hit with their hands as well as they can kick.

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_b5921318-5595-11e1-9b78-0019bb30f31a.html

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_a05c7e8e-481b-11e1-9b95-0019bb30f31a.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/04/blackmons_plaza_shooting_east_st_louis.php

http://fox2now.com/2012/03/15/east-st-louis-police-deadly-shooting-leads-to-gunwar/

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/metro/article_5fbb0540-4b18-5816-b044-d47ebdbbb1ec.html

http://www.kmov.com/news/local/Man-...b-after-failed-robbery-attempt-130690478.html

http://blogs.riverfronttimes.com/dailyrft/2011/11/lawana_hughes_adell_jones_murder.php


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 25, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> You don't get it, do you?  You don't see any kicking because people who know how to kick and punch for that matter, rarely find themselves in the type "reality" situations you are basing your entire debate on. Here's how bar fights go in my neck of the woods: These are just a few of the events that have occured within the last six months. And by the way, I boxed for nearly nine years, still have fast hands, but I just happen to have kicked longer. Due to that. my dojang has a reputation for having  folks who can hit with their hands as well as they can kick.
> 
> http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/...cle_b5921318-5595-11e1-9b78-0019bb30f31a.html
> 
> ...


I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I honestly dont have the time to sit through those links. The original point made was that "if" you choose to do martial arts for self defence purposes (and I am happy to concede that many dont), then your sparring should best reflect the sorts of things you may encounter in 'real' situations. I also concede that no sparring ruleset can fully prepare for real altercations, BUT "from what Ive seen" of real fights the wtf ruleset does not even remotely look like a simulation of what someone may come up against for 'real'. Your theory that people who can punch and kick rarely find themselves in real fights just go to show how differently we think. For instance Ive met very few, if any, muay thai fighters who havent been in real fights and the same can be said for boxers. actually some of the biggest thugs Ive met have had MA experience, and they know how to punch and kick. As I said, We should just agree to disagree as we would be boring the hell out of others reading this thread as it just continues to go around in circles  I have genuinely enjoyed this discussion though.


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## Archtkd (Mar 25, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think we will just have to agree to disagree, I honestly dont have the time to sit through those links. The original point made was that "if" you choose to do martial arts for self defence purposes (and I am happy to concede that many dont), then your sparring should best reflect the sorts of things you may encounter in 'real' situations. I also concede that no sparring ruleset can fully prepare for real altercations, BUT "from what Ive seen" of real fights the wtf ruleset does not even remotely look like a simulation of what someone may come up against for 'real'. Your theory that people who can punch and kick rarely find themselves in real fights just go to show how differently we think. For instance Ive met very few, if any, muay thai fighters who havent been in real fights and the same can be said for boxers. as I said, We should just agree to disagree as we would be boring the hell out of others reading this thread as it just continues to go around in circles



That's OK. I rarely get into debates about things I don't know or understand well and for which I cannot provide a sound basis of argument. I also do not make assumptions about people I've never met, especially if I don't clearly understand a point they are trying to make. I don't know about your country, but here (the American Midwest) finding good, well trained taekwondoin or any martial artist for that matter, getting into bar brawls and street fight is a rare thing. And that doesn't mean American taekwondoin and other martial artists who know how to kick can't take care of themselves on the streets like so many assume.


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## Gorilla (Mar 25, 2012)

You guys are not boring anyone I rather enjoy the debate.

Most Martial Artist are able to walk away from fights.

Are fights really self defense.  You certainly have to defend your self in a fight but the self defense part would be getting out of the fight.

Most self defense situations are when you are attacked with out knowing.  I have not been in a fight for 25 years but I have had to defend might self a few times.


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## Archtkd (Mar 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Most self defense situations are when you are attacked with out knowing.  I have not been in a fight for 25 years but I have had to defend might self a few times.



I have to borrow that one.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2012)

Self defense ends when the first attack is made. 


Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> You guys are not boring anyone I rather enjoy the debate.
> 
> Most Martial Artist are able to walk away from fights.
> 
> ...


which then brings us to pre emptive striking. Say, for instance, you are having a few drinks and some drunken thug walks over and accuses you of "looking" at his girlfriend. You do your best to try to calm the guy and make it quite obvious you dont want a fight and even offer to buy him a drink. But, he is one of those idiots who refuses to give up without a fight, and you can see in his eyes that a punch/kick is gonna come any second despite your attempts to calm the situation. In this case, you wont be attacked without knowing (as you put it), but there will be a fight. I honestly dont know the answer to this one, I ask because it happened to a close friend of mine 6 months ago, he refused to fight and ended up being beaten up. He now says to me that maybe he should have just thrown the first one once he realised the guy wouldnt take a backward step. I know its off topic, but where do you guys satnd on "pre-emptive striking"?  Im personally against it, but in theory it can make sense. I agree that a good martial artist should be able to walk away from fights, but then I also believe any good human being should also be able to walk away from fights. Unfortunately there are a lot of  non martial arts idiots who wont walk away from fights and a lot of martial arts idiots who also will not walk away from fights. Id like to think it was like the movies where martial artists are these upstanding members of society who show respect and dignity and only ever fight when necessary, but unfortunately "anyone" can walk into a martial arts club and join, and with the growing popularity of martial arts its understandable that not all martial artists are of the stereo type variety. I wont name names, but I know of two martail arts schools who encourage students to go out and pick fights with people they know they can beat so they can "see which techs work for them in a real setting". Neither of the two clubs are based in australia either. I believe that is downright irresponsible, but it will happen. I trained for one night at a friends muay thai club to give it a go and I saw some of the roughest, meanest guys Ive seen in my life and I dont believe for one minute that many of them would "walk away from a fight" (which is in no way having a go at muay thai, thats just the example I saw).


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 26, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Self defense ends when the first attack is made.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using TapaTalk.


I like that, thats  a good one  My shotokan instructor would say "by the time you are exchanging blows, you have already failed in self defence".


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## Gorilla (Mar 26, 2012)

Ralph that is allot to ponder.  Each situation stands on it own.  If the situation calls for a first strike then do it.  Those would be rare but not unheard of.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Ralph that is allot to ponder.  Each situation stands on it own.  If the situation calls for a first strike then do it.  Those would be rare but not unheard of.


I agree, it is a lot to ponder, its just me rambling on . I do think though, that there are people who get in fights who have martial arts experience.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 26, 2012)

First strike is another can of worms. There are times when it's justified, and times when it's not, and chances are very good that we won't agree on each specific case. There are simply too many variables.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 26, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I know its off topic, but where do you guys satnd on "pre-emptive striking"?  Im personally against it, but in theory it can make sense. I agree that a good martial artist should be able to walk away from fights, but then I also believe any good human being should also be able to walk away from fights. Unfortunately there are a lot of  non martial arts idiots who wont walk away from fights and a lot of martial arts idiots who also will not walk away from fights.



I hope that violence is never necessary, however I have no problem with pre-emptive self-defence if violence is necessary.  For myself, if I've made obvious verbal attempts to defuse the situation and tried leaving - if the situation is still not resolved then I have no issue with pre-emptive striking.  I'm not going to wait to be hit (or almost hit)!  It also makes things more complicated if others are involved.  For example, if I'm out with my wife and two young children I'm likely to go quicker from talking to leaving to striking - I'm going to be less willing to run the risk of taking a beating and leaving them standing there defenceless.

For what it's worth UK law agrees with me - as Lord Griffith said in Beckford v R [1988] AC 130: "A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike."

Section 3(1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 provides that:


"A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large."

Assault & Battery would be the crime and pre-emptive strikes prevent that crime.  The danger has to be "imminent" for pre-emptive strikes to be legal and the force used has to be reasonable (you can't take them out and then stomp on them for a little while).

Also, under UK law you don't have to even attempt/be willing to leave - R v Bird [1985] 1 WLR 816 - Whilst withdrawing or demonstrating an unwillingness to fight is good evidence that the defendant is acting reasonably and in good faith in self defence, there was no absolute obligation to demonstrate an unwillingness to retreat.


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## ralphmcpherson (Mar 26, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I hope that violence is never necessary, however I have no problem with pre-emptive self-defence if violence is necessary.  For myself, if I've made obvious verbal attempts to defuse the situation and tried leaving - if the situation is still not resolved then I have no issue with pre-emptive striking.  I'm not going to wait to be hit (or almost hit)!  It also makes things more complicated if others are involved.  For example, if I'm out with my wife and two young children I'm likely to go quicker from talking to leaving to striking - I'm going to be less willing to run the risk of taking a beating and leaving them standing there defenceless.
> 
> For what it's worth UK law agrees with me - as Lord Griffith said in Beckford v R [1988] AC 130: "A man about to be attacked does not have to wait for his assailant to strike the first blow or fire the first shot; circumstances may justify a pre-emptive strike."
> 
> ...


Its interesting you mention the wife and 2 young kids. The reason I brought the subject up was because I discussed this at length with a friend recently and Im one of those people where fighting really is the last resort and even pre emptive striking was something I didnt necessarilly agree with. My friend asked the question - "what if I was with my two young children and/or wife, and their safety was at risk so even running is not an option?". Once the kids were brought into the eqation my opinion started to differ.


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## Archtkd (Mar 26, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> which then brings us to pre emptive striking. ...  I know its off topic, but where do you guys satnd on "pre-emptive striking"?  Im personally against it, but in theory it can make sense. I agree that a good martial artist should be able to walk away from fights, but then I also believe any good human being should also be able to walk away from fights. Unfortunately there are a lot of  non martial arts idiots who wont walk away from fights and a lot of martial arts idiots who also will not walk away from fights..



You bring up a very interesting dimension to the discussion.  Pre-emptive strikes are an effective and legit way of defending yourself, if there is reasonable reason to believe your life is in peril. What is reasonable is a very murky issue, though, and what type of pre-emptive  strike you use is contentious,  but my general principal is that I will not wait to be hit and beaten up before I figure out that I&#8217;m in danger. 

Here in the U.S, many are currently embroiled in a very heated and emotional national debate about something known as the &#8220;stand your ground law,&#8221; following the fatal shooting of a teenager in Florida 

That law, which exists in more than 20 states &#8211; after recent passage &#8211;  allows citizens to use deadly force, if they reasonably believe their safety is in peril, in a public place including streets and parks. The law removes prior restraints of a &#8220;duty to retreat&#8221; &#8211; which is required in laws of many other states &#8211; from a threat while in public. While &#8220;stand your ground&#8221; laws have been primarily aimed at addressing concerns of folk who legally carry concealed handguns (48 states allow that), it can apply in any situation where deadly force is used in self defense. 

The &#8220;stand your ground&#8221; law is gounded in an old English Common Law concept known as the &#8220;Castle Doctrine,&#8221; which addresses citizens' rights to self-defense while in their homes. &#8220;Stand you ground laws extend those rights beyond the homes.


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## RobinTKD (Mar 26, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> You bring up a very interesting dimension to the discussion.  Pre-emptive strikes are an effective and legit way of defending yourself, if there is reasonable reason to believe your life is in peril. What is reasonable is a very murky issue, though, and what type of pre-emptive  strike you use is contentious,  but my general principal is that I will not wait to be hit and beaten up before I figure out that I&#8217;m in danger.
> 
> Here in the U.S, many are currently embroiled in a very heated and emotional national debate about something known as the &#8220;stand your ground law,&#8221; following the fatal shooting of a teenager in Florida
> 
> ...



That's an interesting law, though I don't really agree with it. I don't want to get onto the subject of whether I think handguns should be legal etc, but I don't believe deadly force should ever be necessary. We train to fight unarmed, and a lot of our self defence against weapons training should reflect the idea that someone isn't just trying to harm you, but to seriously injure or kill you. How many of you practice 'deadly' techniques? It's much easier to disable someone than to kill them and that should always be your first thought.

I'd also like to quickly say this. We don't have legal handguns in the UK. The guns that are legal cannot be carried around concealed at any time. They can not be carried around loaded unless on private ground. Yes we have murders, and the very very occasional shooting, handguns would only add to that number, they would not be a deterrent for attacks.


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> You bring up a very interesting dimension to the discussion.  Pre-emptive strikes are an effective and legit way of defending yourself, if there is reasonable reason to believe your life is in peril. What is reasonable is a very murky issue, though, and what type of pre-emptive  strike you use is contentious,  but my general principal is that I will not wait to be hit and beaten up before I figure out that Im in danger.
> 
> Here in the U.S, many are currently embroiled in a very heated and emotional national debate about something known as the stand your ground law, following the fatal shooting of a teenager in Florida
> 
> ...



We have a "stand your ground law in Ohio (USA)."  I feel it is a good law, however, I feel that one must be wise and understand that any deadly self defense action against an attacker will certainly place one under the scrutiny of the law and that could place a person on a very slippery tight rope where one side is freedom and the other prison.

I always tell my sons choose the safest way out of a self defense situation or confrontation. If they can safely retreat, they must still do so, even thought Ohio has a stand your ground law. If they can retreat and do so but are pursued by an attacker (s), I say leave no attacker/accomplice standing. If they can not escape/retreat, I say the same. Once attackers/accomplices are down, stay on guard for more of their group and make a short brief call to 911 and state only "criminals are wounded and down, send police", give address, hang up then speed dial the attorney. They would still face legal scrutiny, however, it would give the defense attorney more to work with if the attorney could present evidence of pursuit by the attacker (s) and retreat by the target.  Then one might be better judged by 12, while hopefully avoid being carried by 6.


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## andyjeffries (Mar 26, 2012)

Archtkd said:


> The &#8220;stand your ground&#8221; law is gounded in an old English Common Law concept known as the &#8220;Castle Doctrine,&#8221; which addresses citizens' rights to self-defense while in their homes. &#8220;Stand you ground laws extend those rights beyond the homes.



And it's funny that we don't really have any such law in English Modern Law.  Here's a (very small) petition to add one: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/461

It was talked about during the run up to the last elections, but nothing ever happened with it.

There was a famous case of a guy called Tony Martin who shot two burglars (killing one and wounding the other) that got convicted of murder (later reduced to manslaughter). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Martin_(farmer) The burglars were trying to flee at the time, but still...


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## andyjeffries (Mar 26, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> That's an interesting law, though I don't really agree with it. I don't want to get onto the subject of whether I think handguns should be legal etc, but I don't believe deadly force should ever be necessary.



If I was out walking with my wife and children and was surrounded by a group of yobs with knives you can be DAMN sure that I'd use deadly force to defend my family if necessary and not give it a single moment's regret.  There are situations where deadly force may be necessary (and they aren't that hard to imagine), but I agree it's better to aim for not using it.

It's as Ralph says - bring my wife and kids in to it changes my opinion rapidly from "just walk away" to "you're going down and your mates with you!"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...ecting-son-from-gang-of-thugs-86908-22196023/

There's a very real example of when I think the guy would have been completely justified in using deadly force.  His son was in trouble from a gang of armed youths (knives and guns).  Shame it didn't turn out well for him, but it would be a justifiable situation in my book...


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

If one are armed with a gun, knife, beer bottle, etc., or not, I still think retreating under attack in the streets is the wise thing to do, stand your ground law or not, as long as retreating does not place one in the same or more danger.

That said, if I myself am in danger, I really don't care about any laws at all. If I die or go to prison over defending my self, so be it. I really don't care once it got to that point.


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## RobinTKD (Mar 26, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> If I was out walking with my wife and children and was surrounded by a group of yobs with knives you can be DAMN sure that I'd use deadly force to defend my family if necessary and not give it a single moment's regret.  There are situations where deadly force may be necessary (and they aren't that hard to imagine), but I agree it's better to aim for not using it.


I'm open to the fact that my views will change when I have a wife and children.



andyjeffries said:


> It's as Ralph says - bring my wife and kids in to it changes my opinion rapidly from "just walk away" to "you're going down and your mates with you!"
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/s...ecting-son-from-gang-of-thugs-86908-22196023/
> 
> There's a very real example of when I think the guy would have been completely justified in using deadly force.  His son was in trouble from a gang of armed youths (knives and guns).  Shame it didn't turn out well for him, but it would be a justifiable situation in my book...


 What I'll say is this, about 2 years ago me and my brother got into a fight, it wasn't self defence, it was brawling and I'm not particularly pleased about it, but it happened. Anyway, as I said in another thread, I ended the fight with a sidekick to the chin as the guy was trying to do a rugby tackle. His eyes rolled back into his head and his tongue just kind of fell out. I'd knocked him out but at the time I was convinced I'd killed him, call it adrenaline or whatever but he wasn't moving. He eventually came round while I was there, at this point trying to get my brother away from his opponent, and it was only for about 2 minutes. They were by far and away the worst 2 minutes of my life, thinking that I'd killed a man, trying to stop my brother from fighting so he could just help me out with whatever we should do. All logical thoughts of calling an ambulance or the police just completely left my head.


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 26, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> If I was out walking with my wife and children and was surrounded by a group of yobs with knives you can be DAMN sure that I'd use deadly force to defend my family if necessary and not give it a single moment's regret.  There are situations where deadly force may be necessary (and they aren't that hard to imagine), but I agree it's better to aim for not using it.
> 
> It's as Ralph says - bring my wife and kids in to it changes my opinion rapidly from "just walk away" to "you're going down and your mates with you!"
> 
> ...



I don't have kids yet but when I have my girlfriend with me or whatever my approach changes as well. I've only ever hit someone once in self defense and that was with a front kick in the solar plexus. He dropped like a rock, no permanent harm, and I got a student out of it from a girl who was watching.


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## mastercole (Mar 26, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> I don't have kids yet but when I have my girlfriend with me or whatever my approach changes as well. I've only ever hit someone once in self defense and that was with a front kick in the solar plexus. He dropped like a rock, no permanent harm, and I got a student out of it from a girl who was watching.



Maybe NAPMA will borrow that marketing strategy!


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## ETinCYQX (Mar 26, 2012)

mastercole said:


> Maybe NAPMA will borrow that marketing strategy!



Not an ideal demographic, I'll admit, but it's what she was looking for...


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## Drose427 (Apr 28, 2013)

I believe that it is important to at least attempt to use most kicks in sparring. Even the "fancier" kicks will have uses in sparring and learning when to implement the could help with spotting opening and timing. For instance, in my style of TKD (Moo Duk Kwan) when I was initially taught the tornado kick it was taught to me as a technique used to cover distance, not a spinning back crescent into a jump roundhouse. I was taught to feint a back pivot, then lunge of the back leg into a jump/switch roundhouse. Not very flashy but done properly, its quick and will at the very least, close the gap between you and your opponent. 
  Also, I agree that crescent kicks aren't flashy and serve important purposes when mixed into a combination. For instance, and inside-out crescent kick can lower your opponents guard and leave their head open. Or, if you have proper knee raise, you can sneak an outside-in crescent kick and they will never see it coming because the nkee gets hidden by their guard


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## Manny (Apr 29, 2013)

Kenlee25 said:


> One thing I've noticed more recently while sparring is that I tend to prefer the use of my hands over my legs. Going in for a great counter punch combo and maybe ending with a kick seems more natural to me than doing more powerful fancier kicks. I hardly ever use crescent kicks, Tornado kicks, or hook kicks. Mostly just round kicks, twist kicks, and side kicks.
> 
> Am I the only one? Sometimes I feel like a poor TKD practitioner because of my lack of kicking in a kick heavy art ( although I know perfectly well how to do them. )...especially after 11 years of it.



You are not alone and in some point I am like you, the fancier kicks are a NO-NO when I do sparring, when I do sparring I use mostly kicks but the basic ones you know, the front kick, the round kick and the back kick, some times I trow a spining hook kick or a bakat chagui but most of my kicks are basic ones, also in the lcinch I use my fists.

I am 45 years old and not as flexible or quicker than in the yore days, so now I like to use counters and use fists and kicks to keep the young at bay.

Manny


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 29, 2013)

Kenlee25 said:


> One thing I've noticed more recently while sparring is that I tend to prefer the use of my hands over my legs. Going in for a great counter punch combo and maybe ending with a kick seems more natural to me than doing more powerful fancier kicks. I hardly ever use crescent kicks, Tornado kicks, or hook kicks. Mostly just round kicks, twist kicks, and side kicks.
> 
> Am I the only one? Sometimes I feel like a poor TKD practitioner because of my lack of kicking in a kick heavy art ( although I know perfectly well how to do them. )...especially after 11 years of it.



I use my hands a great deal.  "Fancy" kicks?  Depends on what you mean by "fancy."  I use crescent kicks, axe kicks, hook kicks, jump back pivot kicks, as well as roundhouse, back pivot, side and front kicks.  I don't use the acrobatic kicks, as I don't find them as effective personally. 

I've been practicing for 28 years, and although TKD is a kickcentric art, it is perfectly acceptable to have balance between hand and foot techniques.  Particularly if your goal is SD oriented.


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## SahBumNimRush (Apr 29, 2013)

Wow, just realized this is an old thread, but it does bring back to life an interesting topic of discussion.. .


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 29, 2013)

ATC said:


> 99% of all martial artist suck. 99% of all martial artist don't really train. The 1% in any art that do train, would rather easily destroy all of the 99% in any other art. So all this talk is just that, talk. Because just about everyone on this board falls in the 99%, and if pitted againt any actual WTF Olympic fighter would get owned in about 3 seconds. That also goes for any other world class fighter in any other style also. We would all get owned by any other styles at the world class level, regardless of what we practice.



Sounds a little brainwashy, with a touch of arrogance a pinch of self delusion and a dash of ignorance. Somebody had to say that eventually.


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## wtftkdfanatic (Apr 29, 2013)

At this level right now, I'm using a lot of kicks often to sharpen my skill while I can. roundhouses, back kick, tornado kick, spin hook, love the axe and crescent/drop kicks. I'm finding a lot of success in using them too, and sparring at a blue belt level, i'm hoping I can use this practice to my advantage for when I begin to compete again at the black belt level. Nothing's a better feeling than landing a clean tornado kick in a tournament!


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## ETinCYQX (May 13, 2013)

wtftkdfanatic said:


> At this level right now, I'm using a lot of kicks often to sharpen my skill while I can. roundhouses, back kick, tornado kick, spin hook, love the axe and crescent/drop kicks. I'm finding a lot of success in using them too, and sparring at a blue belt level, i'm hoping I can use this practice to my advantage for when I begin to compete again at the black belt level. Nothing's a better feeling than landing a clean tornado kick in a tournament!



Playing with a bunch of different stuff is exactly what you should be doing at blue belt. When you start BB competition, you'll probably adopt a game plan that's relatively consistent from match to match from what you've learned doing that


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## steve93 (May 21, 2013)

There is nothing wrong at all with your fighting style, just because a Form of martial arts consists of a lot of kicks does not put you under any pressure to use them all. I trained Tae-Kwon-Do in the UK for many years and competed, with my natural flexibility I found axe kicks, crescent kicks, reverse hook kicks and reverse turning kicks all very effective for me. But this however was not the case for my Old man who much like you LOVED his twist kick! He only mainly threw twist, side, turning and front, all the basic kicks and fought the majority of fights with his hands. Even with this fighting style of his he still became Full Contact British Champ.

So Yeah, I wouldn't worry at all about your fighting style. Use what works for you!


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