# Power generation in VT



## guy b. (Jan 12, 2016)

How do you train power generation in VT? I mean not to dwell on pole in this thread as it has already been discussed. Assuming pole and associated drills as an essential part, how do you train as an adjunct to pole?

From another thread, it has been noted that Hakka arts have the famous fou chum tun tou formula, trained via sanchin style forms and grinding arm drills.

Where in the forms does VT train power generation in your line? Which drills are essential for this?

Please discuss


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## wckf92 (Jan 12, 2016)

guy b. said:


> How do you train *power generation* in VT? I mean not to dwell on pole in this thread as it has already been discussed. Assuming pole and associated drills as an essential part, how do you train as an adjunct to pole?
> 
> From another thread, it has been noted that Hakka arts have the famous fou chum tun tou formula, trained via sanchin style forms and *grinding arm drills*.
> 
> ...



Guy, your post is really two different topics IMO.
You mention "grinding arm drills"...which IME is conditioning related...not power generation.

Also, power generation (exercises/drills, etc)  is sometimes a closely held topic, per lineage or kung fu family.  More and more have come out from the veils over the years, since the onslaught of the internet, youtube, blogs, etc etc.

1st Form is the seed for power generation. From there, it grows from a 'little idea' into many... There are power generation and/or conditioning exercises and routines for most of WC (from individual hands, to MYJ, to Pole, Knives, legs/kicking, etc). Each component of the system has specific power and/or conditioning enhancing drills and exercises which, if properly learned and trained will greatly amplify ones WC.
Just my .02 dude...


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## guy b. (Jan 12, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Guy, your post is really two different topics IMO.
> You mention "grinding arm drills"...which IME is conditioning related...not power generation.
> 
> Also, power generation (exercises/drills, etc)  is sometimes a closely held topic, per lineage or kung fu family.  More and more have come out from the veils over the years, since the onslaught of the internet, youtube, blogs, etc etc.
> ...



Grinding arms in Hakka systems is a punching structure, punching musculature, punching power drill. Does it have an analogue in wing chun?


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## guy b. (Jan 12, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> 1st Form is the seed for power generation. From there, it grows from a 'little idea' into many...



What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?



> There are power generation and/or conditioning exercises and routines for most of WC (from individual hands, to MYJ, to Pole, Knives, legs/kicking, etc). Each component of the system has specific power and/or conditioning enhancing drills and exercises which, if properly learned and trained will greatly amplify ones WC



I would say that MYJ is about coordination, error recovery. Some power development but tangential. Pole obviously. Knives? Not so much in my opinion.

Which drills or exercises are to do with power generation in VT and why?


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## geezer (Jan 12, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## geezer (Jan 12, 2016)

Hmmm. You _don't_ see power generation as a process that continues _cumulatively_ throughout your training? One that begins with the structure, alignment,  muscle relaxation, joint stretching and snapping extension of the arms in SNT? Then is combined with body movement such as the steps and turns in Chum Kiu? Then with greater emphasis on tendon strength and joint flexion ...including the shoulders and spine in Biu Tze? And, continuously trained and applied through drills, wall bag work and the MYJ, eventually augmented by the pole.... (a later component of training in the lineage I train)... and lastly honed (pardon the pun) in the BCD? 

Guess we look at it differently then. I view the training as holistic and integrated. That includes the development of good power. Maybe that's why we call it a "system"?


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## Vajramusti (Jan 12, 2016)

guy b. said:


> What is it about 1st form that has to do with power generation in VT?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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What did WSL or his protégés say about power development?


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 12, 2016)

Yeah, I kind of see things the way Geezer described above. 

Since you asked how you do it in your line, I will explain from coming from Chu Shong Tin line. 

Basically in this line, everything is about force. It's pretty much all we care about (admittedly this focus might come at the expense of practicality and application). But most of us don't care, we love it anyway. We don't tend to look at each of the forms as applications as much as force generation methods. 

So pretty much what Geezer said above. SNT is the foundation of force development. We will do "structure tests" on every move in SNT and sometimes from different angles. It basically involves a partner forcefully trying to prevent you from doing a part of the form. You have to find a way to do this in a relaxed way and effortless way. This skills seems to get better and better over the years. 

Then in Chum Kiu you are now using the force generation methods and structure from SNT in turning and stepping. First though we would practice turning against resistance. So someone would hold the front of one shoulder and the back of the other and you try to turn against that. This is quite hard. You have to find a way to link your body. We also practice stepping forward with pressure on our chest. 

Then there is Bil Jee. One of the main ideas for this is that we are no longer sourcing power from a our axis but now using a single point along our spine to source power. So now we are learning how to twist and bend the spine. And there are other force theories in there also like torque and acceleration etc. 

So in general the forms are an extremely logical transition through deeper and deeper force generation concepts.


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## guy b. (Jan 12, 2016)

Vajramusti said:


> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> What did WSL or his protégés say about power development?



Trying not to drone on about WSL..people seem to dislike intensely. What did Augustine Fong say about it?


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## Zeny (Jan 12, 2016)

Power comes from relaxation, and from practising repeated strikes onto sand or bean bags, every day, for years. It is a painful process. There are no two ways about it (unless you are practising taichi, and that is a different story altogether).

You don't practise power generation by punching air or doing the form. Doing the form against resistance is the same as lifting weights, creates tension in the muscles, and does not assist in relaxation. It is the same as practising punching underwater (which is pretty much useless).


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## Danny T (Jan 12, 2016)

Power is generated by;
1. Muscle expansion and contraction
2. Body Rotation
3. Body displacement.


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## LFJ (Jan 13, 2016)

Zeny said:


> You don't practise power generation by punching air or doing the form. Doing the form against resistance is the same as lifting weights, creates tension in the muscles, and does not assist in relaxation.



Power is explosive strength. Strength can't be expressed without resistance. We can train to get stronger and that will increase our power output, but how powerful one can be depends on one's genetic potential to explode. That's why olympic weightlifters are vetted and recruited based on their standing vertical jump. If you have an 18 inch vertical, no amount of training will increase it to 36 inches. Teams recruit those who are genetically powerful.

The best way for an athlete to train for general power is to do olympic lifts like the power clean. That in addition to training for power in patterns specific to your discipline yields tremendous results.

For my VT, the forms train our body mechanics for power generation like practicing power cleans with an unloaded bar, but to develop power specific to our discipline we use resistance from things like heavy bags and each other (_pun-sau_) like training power cleans with a loaded bar.

Like the power clean, a power punch is generated from the ground up with relaxed arms. Once power is transferred from the lower body via the waist to the elbow, the entire body's strength is expressed explosively into the target. Therefore, general strength and power training are both essential.

For whatever reason, some lineages discourage weightlifting. I think that is terrible advice for a power athlete. Someone with a 200kg+ Clean and Jerk who also knows how to punch will take your head clean off your shoulders. Like this guy. That weight comes up fast as hell. That's incredible power (explosive strength). Channeled into a punch = oblivion!


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## dudewingchun (Jan 13, 2016)

Been interested in a few lineages It seems power development is not consistent at all within different lineages.

Chu shong tin is how Wing chun Auckland explained. From what iv seen of Duncan Leung he has lots of supplementary exercises that noone else seems to have like folding a towel and pulling it to develop tendon strength in the shoulder . Chu sau lei develops power through body structure and probably more methods I just havent learnt yet. My first wing chun teacher just expected our hand angles to act like magic and disperse any force that came in contact with our hands.alot of lineages reckon training the pole is enough. Chris chan uses dynamic tension in everything from what I hear which is effective in building strength no doubt but im not sure the amount he does it is wing chun.

Just what I have come across in my research of wing chun.

From my little experience with Chu shong tin.. they produce a ton of power. But iv only trained with one guy.


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## LFJ (Jan 13, 2016)

Good training ideas from Alan Orr:


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## dudewingchun (Jan 13, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Good training ideas from Alan Orr:



Alan knows how to use his body very very very well. He once showed a short range punch to me through a pad on my chest and it felt so powerful and weird , the power went in and sunk down and my made stomach feel odd.


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## KPM (Jan 13, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Trying not to drone on about WSL..people seem to dislike intensely. What did Augustine Fong say about it?


 
People only object when you come across as saying that WSL is the best and obviously others are substandard.   You haven't gotten that message yet?


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## Zeny (Jan 13, 2016)

There are two myths in martial arts, both probably caused by hollywood movies.

The first myth is that once you know the techniques you can fight (karate kid). The truth is that it takes years of constant, boring and repetitive practice to be able to generate decent power.

The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is fascinating how many martial artists (as compared to sportsmen) can be so misguided. If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?

To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.

True martial artists do not look like martial artists at all. They may look just like any ordinary person on the street.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> People only object when you come across as saying that WSL is the best and obviously others are substandard.   You haven't gotten that message yet?



Why pretend that I think otherwise? Better just not to mention given reactions. I am curious to learn about other interpretations of the system so happy not to mention WSL method.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Power is explosive strength. Strength can't be expressed without resistance. We can train to get stronger and that will increase our power output, but how powerful one can be depends on one's genetic potential to explode. That's why olympic weightlifters are vetted and recruited based on their standing vertical jump. If you have an 18 inch vertical, no amount of training will increase it to 36 inches. Teams recruit those who are genetically powerful.
> 
> The best way for an athlete to train for general power is to do olympic lifts like the power clean. That in addition to training for power in patterns specific to your discipline yields tremendous results.
> 
> ...



Good post. Olympic weightlifting is great for development of raw power. Much better than anything in the system but also fairly non-specific. Wing chun forms contain body mechanics but no resistance. Wing chun drills develop power along specific directions of force along with neural connections required via constant training against resistance.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

Zeny said:


> The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is fascinating how many martial artists (as compared to sportsmen) can be so misguided.



Training against resitance is the only way to get stronger. Training to express that strength powerfully (i.e. in short time) is the only way to develop power. A lot of power is related to neural connections and muscle recruitment, but if you don't have the strength then you don't have same power potential as someone that does.  Complex training with heavy weights and plyos is the best way to go.



> If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?



No, that would be stupid in the same way that adding ankle weights while running would be. Tennis players do perform olymic lifts and sport specific power drills.



> To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.



?


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## LFJ (Jan 13, 2016)

Zeny said:


> The second myth is that martial artists should have big muscular bodies and practise with weights so as to be able to generate power.



Weightlifting is not bodybuilding.



> If weight training can generate explosive power, why don't tennis or badminton players wrap their arms with weights during practice to improve their game? Food for thought isn't it?



I'm not a tennis player, but a quick Google search shows they actually use Olympic Weightlifting routines for the same reasons I suggested it be used for martial arts. Turns out it applies to any power athlete who wants to optimize their energy transfer by developing kinetic chain efficiency...






Oh, look at this! Power Cleans for Tennis:








> To achieve external power (as opposed to internal power which uses a totally different method), the method is easy but it is hard work. Get a strong bag, fill it with green beans, place the bag onto a solid table or platform, relax your hand and arm and slam your palm down onto the bag. Do it 1,000 times a day (but be careful not to damage your hands). If the bag is not strong enough it may explode within three months. If so replace it with a better bag. After three years of such practise your single palm strike will generate so much power you cannot begin to imagine. And at this point your arm will look no bigger or different than it is three years ago.



That's just conditioning your hands, not developing power.


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## wckf92 (Jan 13, 2016)

guy b. said:


> Grinding arms in *Hakka* systems is a punching structure, punching musculature, punching power drill. Does it have an analogue in wing chun?



I don't know what 'Hakka' is? Is that a martial art or...?

Sorry, but I see what you are saying now about the grinding arm thing...I guess I was initially thinking about an old Uechi ryu drill where you bang arms together in a set pattern to toughen them up


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## wckf92 (Jan 13, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> It seems power development is not consistent at all within different lineages.



Very much agree!


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> I don't know what 'Hakka' is? Is that a martial art or...?
> 
> Sorry, but I see what you are saying now about the grinding arm thing...I guess I was initially thinking about an old Uechi ryu drill where you bang arms together in a set pattern to toughen them up



It's not arm conditioning. Analogue in wing chun is poon sau. Direction of force training, loaded structure training.

Hakka is a Chinese ethnicity. Several fighting systems are associated with them including southern preying mantis, dragon, white eyebrow, which are all basically the same thing. They use the float sink swallow spit body mechanic for power generation, among other things. Different to wing chun but similarities in some ways.


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## Zeny (Jan 13, 2016)

Watch 23:30 and the rest of the video. Look at how ordinary the chinese martial artists look.


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## wckf92 (Jan 13, 2016)

guy b. said:


> They use the *float sink swallow spit body mechanic for power generation*, among other things. Different to wing chun but similarities in some ways.



Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?



I posted an example of white crane using float sink on the thread where we were discussing CSL wing chun..might have been padwork thread? In simple terms float sink is rise fall, and can be straight forwardly used to add power to striking if you time it with hits. Like sitting in your punches but more pronounced. Can also be used in timings and counterstriking but basically rising the centre of gravity, then sitting it back down.

Swallow spit in Hakka systems is in simple terms back forward, usually interpreted in terms of drawing in, then exploding out. Example would be stepping back drawing the attack and receiving with beggar hands and characteristic rounded "basket weaver" back, then exploding forwards with step, hips, strike and simultaneously opening the ribs/straightening the back to power the elbow. Rib bone power from the grinding arm is used in this kind of strike- intercostal musculature essential.

The main problem with these methods is lack of mobility. To my mind they are from an earlier paradigm of fighting. You need to be very good with them to make mobile enough. CSL wing chun do a lot of pretty basic float sink when they are in contact, e.g. chi sau, but I don't see it when they are mobile. What they do looks too slow to really power punching. The white crane example posted was much more standard usage for striking. 

CSL push the hips in which I believe they are characterising as swallow spit, but not close to fully developed compared to Hakka systems for which it is bread and butter basics. You break your structure if you swallow with hips, hence they don't. It is really just float sink again IMO.


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## wckf92 (Jan 13, 2016)

guy b. said:


> In simple terms *float sink is rise fall*, and can be straight forwardly used to add power to striking if you time it with hits.
> .......but basically rising the centre of gravity, then sitting it back down.
> *Swallow spit in Hakka systems is in simple terms back forward*, usually interpreted in terms of drawing in, then exploding out.



Ahh...I see. Cool! Thx Guy.


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## KPM (Jan 13, 2016)

wckf92 said:


> Interesting. Do you know of some examples for these four mechanics?


 
Guy gave a pretty good description.   In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand."  It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread."  We also have a "Got Gan Sau" or "cutting" Gan Sau that uses the same "Tun" concept.   "Spit" is any explosive output of force away from you.  So essentially do a ballistic Biu Ma step with a punch would follow the "spit" concept.   "Sink" and "rise" are pretty self-evident.  In Pin Sun we sometimes use a "Gwai Mai" or "hanging stance" which is suddenly dropping your level by bending one knee.  So this is following the "sink" concept.  Of course, when you raise yourself back up from this position, you are doing "rise."  Most people have a "rising" punch in their SNT & CK forms.   Pin Sun has a short set called "Saam Jin Choi" or "three arrow punches" that explicitly trains the "sink" and "rise" elements.  These concepts are also used as part of the power generation mechanics.  You might "swallow" and "sink" at the same time by absorbing the opponent's force as you sink back into your stance...then you use "spit" and "rise" at the same time as you explode out of the position with a strike.  Its like loading a spring and then releasing it.  All of these concepts are found in the older methods of Wing Chun/Weng Chun.  They are in Tang Yik Weng Chun as well.  They are just applied a bit differently sometimes than in the Hakka arts, because ...of course, Wing Chun and Hakka arts are not the same thing.


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## wckf92 (Jan 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Guy gave a pretty good description.   In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand."  It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread."  We also have a "Got Gan Sau" or "cutting" Gan Sau that uses the same "Tun" concept.   "Spit" is any explosive output of force away from you.  So essentially do a ballistic Biu Ma step with a punch would follow the "spit" concept.   "Sink" and "rise" are pretty self-evident.  In Pin Sun we sometimes use a "Gwai Mai" or "hanging stance" which is suddenly dropping your level by bending one knee.  So this is following the "sink" concept.  Of course, when you raise yourself back up from this position, you are doing "rise."  Most people have a "rising" punch in their SNT & CK forms.   Pin Sun has a short set called "Saam Jin Choi" or "three arrow punches" that explicitly trains the "sink" and "rise" elements.  These concepts are also used as part of the power generation mechanics.  You might "swallow" and "sink" at the same time by absorbing the opponent's force as you sink back into your stance...then you use "spit" and "rise" at the same time as you explode out of the position with a strike.  Its like loading a spring and then releasing it.  All of these concepts are found in the older methods of Wing Chun/Weng Chun.  They are in Tang Yik Weng Chun as well.  They are just applied a bit differently sometimes than in the Hakka arts, because ...of course, Wing Chun and Hakka arts are not the same thing.



Yeah once I read Guy's post, and yours...it helped me to understand the correlation of those Chinese terms. Those mechanics are present in my WC also. Thanks for the useful post and the examples.


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2016)

Guy, have you trained SPM, Pak Mei or other Hakka arts?

They are not widely taught here in the States, so I only know what I read or see on Youtube (i.e. nothing). Anyway some people have opined that WC may be influenced if not partially derived from those arts due to many shared traits such as the short stance and emphasis on infighting, arms held in front with the elbows down, the rounded back _some_ WC branches also have, ample use of the "phoenix-eye fist", as well as geographical proximity in Southern China.

Also, you again referenced "float, sink, swallow, spit" which I've also heard in Okinawan Karate circles. In your experience, do these principles have a place in WSL VT? Or do you feel they contradict your WC structure,  principles for power generation, forward intent, etc.?


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2016)

KPM said:


> Guy gave a pretty good description.   In Pin Sun we even have a technique called "Tun Sau" or "swallowing hand."  It is essentially a Tan Sau that moves back to absorb or "swallow" rather than going forward to "spread."...



When done properly, especially against a forceful punch, our tan does _both swallow and spit at the same time_. That is it presses forward while moving backwards. That's hard to do! Still, I feel that we use something like "swallowing" (as I've heard it described), but without actually pulling back and giving up forward intent. Instead we compress or angle aside which yields and absorbs without actually pulling in. Withdrawing energy is a big _*no-no*_ in our lineage!

Our back-weighted stances and "pulling/dragging-steps" (coming from "WT") minimize rising and falling so "float-sink" is not so obviously used either. On the other hand, my Latosa Escrima uses falling and rising force extensively, which has made me more aware of it in my WC. It's just a lot subtler.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms. 

Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.


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## KPM (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.
> 
> Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.


 

From a sports medicine perspective, that is not at all true.   I bet there isn't a single UFC fighter that doesn't do some weight training in some form.  Structure, relaxation and alignment only get you so far.   What moves a limb to deliver a strike is muscle.  The stronger that muscle is, the more power you have the potential to produce.   Can a skinny guy without much mass produce good power?  Of course!  But imagine what they same guy could do if he had more mass and strength.  ;-)    Bruce Lee is by no means the Wing Chun standard.  But I wanted to point out that Bruce was into weight lifting back before it was cool to do so!


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

Well it depends how loosely you say "in some form". Boxers etc are not going to be doing heavy bench presses etc. Power in punching does not come from lifting heavy. With fighters I see a lot of plyometric stuff. 

With trainers like Nick Cruson and the Marionich brothers it is almost like they are taking the resistance out of the training. For each exercise, instead of making it slower and harder with weights they find ways to make it faster and more explosive. Instead of running up a hill to get explosive speeds in the legs, they will have you running down a hill. 

"Can a skinny guy without much mass produce good power? Of course! But imagine what they same guy could do if he had more mass and strength."
- ....well, to me, it's relying on localised muscle is an obstacle to power. I would say the skinny guy who has power should stay on the path he is on because it has obviously worked well for him so far and he is only going to get better. Because we are on the discussion of weights I assume you mean build mass through weights? Because you are talking about what a skinny guy could do if he basically got bigger with muscle. Well his mass would heavier which of could help with power. Not so sure the actually arm strength is going to help much. His bigger muscled frame is going to slow him down as well as suck up oxygen in a fight and cause him to gas faster.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

I have met many people who have shocked me with their power in martial arts. Not just in wing chun. None of them of them were bigger or heavier than me.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

.... to clarify.... I am not big. They just happened to be lighter and smaller than me.


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## mograph (Jan 13, 2016)

Regarding weight training for optimal function, I like Paul Chek's work with full-body exercises.Maybe they'd help with power, maybe not.
7 Primal Movement Patterns For Full-Body Strength


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power. What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.
> 
> Even for professional fighters weights are said to be a bad idea.



Completely wrong. Hitting is no different to other athletic movements.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Well it depends how loosely you say "in some form". Boxers etc are not going to be doing heavy bench presses etc. Power in punching does not come from lifting heavy. With fighters I see a lot of plyometric stuff.



Power athletes do both, lifting heavy off season or far out from fight, more plyos, technique and speed as comp or fight gets closer. It is called complex training, well established approach. Virtually all athletes in sports with a power component will do it.



> With trainers like Nick Cruson and the Marionich brothers it is almost like they are taking the resistance out of the training. For each exercise, instead of making it slower and harder with weights they find ways to make it faster and more explosive. Instead of running up a hill to get explosive speeds in the legs, they will have you running down a hill.



Running down a hill or forcing speed in other ways is again a standard approach. People doing this kind of thing will also be lifting heavy and doing heavier to lighter plyos periodised in a logical way and building towards event.



> well, to me, it's relying on localised muscle is an obstacle to power.



Nothing is more effective in training full body muscle recruitment than olympic lifting. 



> I assume you mean build mass through weights? Because you are talking about what a skinny guy could do if he basically got bigger with muscle.



Getting stronger does not necessarily entail getting bigger. Muscle fibre composition, muscle recruitment, neural pathways all play a huge role.  



> Not so sure the actually arm strength is going to help much. His bigger muscled frame is going to slow him down as well as suck up oxygen in a fight and cause him to gas faster.



?


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

geezer said:


> Guy, have you trained SPM, Pak Mei or other Hakka arts?



Yes I have. Not any more though



> They are not widely taught here in the States, so I only know what I read or see on Youtube (i.e. nothing).



I think probably more in US than in some places. Robert Chu will probably know where to find it if you have any contact with him. UK has quite a lot due to HK Chinese population. 



> Anyway some people have opined that WC may be influenced if not partially derived from those arts due to many shared traits such as the short stance and emphasis on infighting, arms held in front with the elbows down, the rounded back _some_ WC branches also have, ample use of the "phoenix-eye fist", as well as geographical proximity in Southern China.



I would say they work in completely different ways. They look superficially similar in some ways, but for me they are not. Compared to these systems, wing chun is like a step change, an evolution. Wing chun is fast and mobile. Hakka arts are not so much due to more involved body mechanics. I guess they would claim striking power over wing chun but they lack the momentum based power of wing chun. Wing chun is economical, attacking. Hakka systems are more complex, counter punching styles.



> Also, you again referenced "float, sink, swallow, spit" which I've also heard in Okinawan Karate circles. In your experience, do these principles have a place in WSL VT? Or do you feel they contradict your WC structure,  principles for power generation, forward intent, etc.?



I would say that they are contradictory. Wing chun power connected is like a spear point with the shaft stuck for a second against the ground. It is momentary and explosive. It doesn't need prolonged contact. Hakka systems are more trapping/semi grappling systems that draw the opponent into a place where they can be destroyed. They rely on contact and not too much moving around.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

"Running down a hill or forcing speed in other ways is again a standard approach. People doing this kind of thing will also be lifting heavy and doing heavier to lighter plyos periodised in a logical way and building towards event." 

No, trainers like Nick Curson has pretty much completely eliminated heavy weight lifting from his regime and he has trained many famous UFC fighters. He doesn't even like kettlebell workouts anymore. Lifting heavy will make you look big, but not necessarily help with explosive force. 

"Nothing is more effective in training full body muscle recruitment than olympic lifting." 
For building muscle? Perhaps you are right. Does that equate to power in structure or punching power? Not necessarily. 

"Getting stronger does not necessarily entail getting bigger. Muscle fibre composition, muscle recruitment, neural pathways all play a huge role."

- Yeah I agree getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger. But KPM's ascertion was about a skinny guy getting bigger. That means putting on muscle. I assume he wasnt talking about getting fatter. 

There are many things that play a more important role than building strength when it comes to power and explosiveness. Stance, relaxation, speed, alignment, body mechanics, understanding of force vectors. These things can all be trained and refined to incredible levels and is a life time of study in itself. If I am relying on stronger shoulder muscles to get bet better power or overpower a partner, I am looking in the wrong places. If there is a problem with power it is going to be one of those things above that is off - NOT how strong my muscles are. 









​


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> ...There are many things that play a more important role than building strength when it comes to power and explosiveness. Stance, relaxation, speed, alignment, body mechanics, understanding of force vectors. These things can all be trained and refined to incredible levels and is a life time of study in itself. If I am relying on stronger shoulder muscles to get bet better power or overpower a partner, I am looking in the wrong places. If there is a problem with power it is going to be one of those things above that is off - NOT how strong my muscles are.



I agree with what you say here, but I also think careful and selective cultivation of muscular power can contribute a lot to power. That's been proven over and over with top athletes in a wide variety of competitive sports. By contrast, my old Chinese sifu was opposed to weight training because he achieved a high level of explosive power without it. He preferred the traditional WC methods of training in the areas you mentioned to build his power. But he also had a very strong core and legs as well as a high level of mastery. For people not so naturally endowed, IMO some form of supplemental resistance training would be useful.


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## geezer (Jan 13, 2016)

guy b. said:


> ....They (Hakka and WC systems) look superficially similar in some ways, but for me they are not. Compared to these systems, wing chun is like a step change, an evolution. Wing chun is fast and mobile. Hakka arts are not so much due to more involved body mechanics. I guess they would claim striking power over wing chun but they lack the momentum based power of wing chun. Wing chun is economical, attacking. Hakka systems are more complex, counter punching styles.



So do you think WC evolved out of some form of village boxing like these Hakka systems? ...Perhaps reconceived and forever changed by a particular master such as Leung Jan? Or did it have another, separate source or sources? If so did Yonchun Baihe contribute something? Or was there something else? Do you think it's combination with the long pole (an actual historical connection reminiscent of the folktale of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai) was what inspired these changes and started WC heading in a different direction?

Finally, if you still hold to the theory of the _pole as pivotal factor_, why didn't these other Southern Chinese systems --which I'm told also train similar long pole systems ...why didn't they take the same road as WC?

If you are right about the pole thing... (and I'm still skeptical) then there must have been another factor involved, like the pole _and_ a powerful personality ...a master (Leung Jan?) who forever changed the nature of the system.


I'd like to point out that, unlike our previous discussion (argument?), here I'm open to the concept that the pole might have exerted a major influence on the direction WC took. I just have to point out that _both_ the empty handed system and the pole clearly have long roots. The roots of the pole and "proto-WC", if you will, must go back a long way, whatever the system was called. Sure the pole comes from spear and has ancient military roots. And villagers in Southern China have been duking it out since the dawn of time. It's kinda what people do.


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## KPM (Jan 13, 2016)

- Yeah I agree getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger. But KPM's ascertion was about a skinny guy getting bigger. That means putting on muscle. I assume he wasnt talking about getting fatter.

---A muscle's ability to generate contractile force is directly related to its cross-sectional area.  That is simply a fact of human physiology.  Now I'm not talking about the guy that takes weight lifting to an extreme and looks like a muscle bound hulk.  You do reach a point of diminishing returns where more mass just slows you down and restricts your range of motion.  I'm talking about the normal guy that uses weight-lifting to build strength and explosiveness to improve his athletic abilities.  Take two new students to Wing Chun.  One that does no strength training at all and has relatively skinny arms.  Another that does some weight lifting 2 or 3 times per week and has some decent muscle mass.  Train them exactly the same....all things being equal other than muscles mass and strength.....the guy that does some strength training is going to hit harder and with more power than the other guy.  Again, that's simply human physiology.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> "Running down a hill or forcing speed in other ways is again a standard approach. People doing this kind of thing will also be lifting heavy and doing heavier to lighter plyos periodised in a logical way and building towards event."
> 
> No, trainers like Nick Curson has pretty much completely eliminated heavy weight lifting from his regime and he has trained many famous UFC fighters. He doesn't even like kettlebell workouts anymore. Lifting heavy will make you look big, but not necessarily help with explosive force.​




Moving heavy things explosively will help with explosive force. You can mention one gimmicky trainer and I will mention almost everyone in competitive sport. 



> "Nothing is more effective in training full body muscle recruitment than olympic lifting."
> For building muscle? Perhaps you are right. Does that equate to power in structure or punching power? Not necessarily.



Onlympic lifting is not body building. It is the fastest and best way to build whole body neural connections, to increase muscle recruitment, and coordination of muscle firing



> "Getting stronger does not necessarily entail getting bigger. Muscle fibre composition, muscle recruitment, neural pathways all play a huge role."
> 
> - Yeah I agree getting stronger doesn't mean getting bigger. But KPM's ascertion was about a skinny guy getting bigger. That means putting on muscle. I assume he wasnt talking about getting fatter.



You can't get stronger if you don't lift more weight. You can't get more powerful if you don't lift heavier things just as fast as you were previously lifting lighter things, or lift the same things but do it faster. That is what power is. Weight training, especially explosive lifts like the snatch and clean and jerk are about the best way of doing this recruiting almost the whole body musculature in the process.



> There are many things that play a more important role than building strength when it comes to power and explosiveness. Stance, relaxation, speed, alignment, body mechanics, understanding of force vectors.



None of these things increase power. You are talking about improving mechanics (which everyone should be doing) and reducing inefficiency. These things do not increase gross power.



> These things can all be trained and refined to incredible levels and is a life time of study in itself. If I am relying on stronger shoulder muscles to get bet better power or overpower a partner, I am looking in the wrong places. If there is a problem with power it is going to be one of those things above that is off - NOT how strong my muscles are



Shoulder muscles??​


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

geezer said:


> So do you think WC evolved out of some form of village boxing like these Hakka systems? ...Perhaps reconceived and forever changed by a particular master such as Leung Jan?



Sounds likely



> Or did it have another, separate source or sources? If so did Yonchun Baihe contribute something?



Sounds unlikely



> Do you think it's combination with the long pole (an actual historical connection reminiscent of the folktale of Wong Wah Bo and Leung Yee Tai) was what inspired these changes and started WC heading in a different direction?



Many Southern Chinese systems incorporate the same pole method. It was obviously widely taught at some point in history (e.g. mid 19th century when most Southern Chinese systems appear, a time of much unrest in China). However only one Southern Chinese empty hand system is directly analogous to that pole method in terms of concepts and techniques. Did wing chun empty hands map directly to pole completely by chance? On balance I would guess not.



> Finally, if you still hold to the theory of the _pole as pivotal factor_, why didn't these other Southern Chinese systems --which I'm told also train similar long pole systems ...why didn't they take the same road as WC?



Because nobody within those other systems decided to throw all the other crap out and remodel the whole thing based on well known and very effective military pole/spear methods?



> If you are right about the pole thing... (and I'm still skeptical) then there must have been another factor involved, like the pole _and_ a powerful personality ...a master (Leung Jan?) who forever changed the nature of the system.



Who knows? Leung Jan from Foshan is the earliest person we even know of who practised this system. I doubt that it goes back much before him, but then I am speculating



> I'd like to point out that, unlike our previous discussion (argument?), here I'm open to the concept that the pole might have exerted a major influence on the direction WC took. I just have to point out that _both_ the empty handed system and the pole clearly have long roots. The roots of the pole and "proto-WC", if you will, must go back a long way, whatever the system was called. Sure the pole comes from spear and has ancient military roots. And villagers in Southern China have been duking it out since the dawn of time. It's kinda what people do.



Pole comes from spear, sure. Given its ubiquity it is probably something that was widely taught to militias in 19th C Southern China. People have been fighting forever I agree


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

Coming under fire in all directions here! 

"Moving heavy things explosively will help with explosive force. You can mention one gimmicky trainer and I will mention almost everyone in competitive sport" 

Well, I wouldn't say that he is gimmicky. The Marinovich brothers train this way (admittedly Curson derives his ideas from these guys). But the notion that heavy weights are not optimal for explosive power is nothing new. It's good for lifting heavy weights in that exact way though. Injuries, overloading of joints, spinal compression .... these are just a few of the negatives you can get from heavy lifting. 

"Olympic lifting is not body building. It is the fastest and best way to build whole body neural connections, to in rease muscle recruitment, and coordination of muscle firing"

Whole body motions themselves are good for that. Do you need to add heavy weights to get those benefits? No. Plyometrics will do a better job for explosive power. 

"You can't get stronger if you don't lift more weight. You can't get more powerful if you don't lift heavier things just as fast as you were previously lifting lighter things, or lift the same things but do it faster. That is what power is. Weight training, especially explosive lifts like the snatch and clean and jerk are about the best way of doing this recruiting almost the whole body musculature in the process." 

It depends on what your definition of what power is. If by power you mean lifting heavy things, then yes you are absolutely right. We are on a wing chun forum though. Does power mean being able to crash through someone's arm structures and break their structure and alignment? Or does it mean explosive punching or kicking power? If the latter, then no, heavey lifting is not optimal for that. Wing Chun training is though. 

"None of these things increase power. You are talking about improving mechanics (which everyone should be doing) and reducing inefficiency. These things do not increase gross power."

Well we are on a wing chun forum. If a wing chun guy can make me drop or fly across a room (in chi sao or otherwise) then I deem him/her powerful. I will think they have lots of power. Are they using great body mechanics? Yes. Why are you separating the two? It's not like they are opposites. 

I used shoulder muscles as an example. The fact remains to me that if my punching power or structure breaking power is off, I am not going to fix it by making my muscles stronger.


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## guy b. (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Whole body motions themselves are good for that. Do you need to add heavy weights to get those benefits? No. Plyometrics will do a better job for explosive power.



You need both plyometrics (neural) and weight (muscular) traning. Olympic weightlifting is somewhere in the middle, i.e. speed strength. 

They are combined and periodised in such a way as to be appropriate to whatever event the athlete is competing in. It is what all athletes do. It is pure gimmick to focus on plyos only as some kind of radical new thing. 



> It depends on what your definition of what power is. If by power you mean lifting heavy things, then yes you are absolutely right. We are on a wing chun forum though. Does power mean being able to crash through someone's arm structures and break their structure and alignment? Or does it mean explosive punching or kicking power? If the latter, then no, heavey lifting is not optimal for that. Wing Chun training is though.



There is no competing definition of power. Power is work done fast. Amount of energy per unit time. Moving more to the force production side increases gross muscle recruitment, strength and yes size. Moving more to the speed side of it increases specific neural connection, firing rate, specific muscle recruitment. They work hand in hand. It is called complex training and has been used by athletes for decades. 



> Well we are on a wing chun forum. If a wing chun guy can make me drop or fly across a room (in chi sao or otherwise) then I deem him/her powerful. I will think they have lots of power. Are they using great body mechanics? Yes. Why are you separating the two? It's not like they are opposites.



Training body mechanics is not the same as training power. Of course they can be linked, e.g. in poon sau, pole, chi sau



> I used shoulder muscles as an example. The fact remains to me that if my punching power or structure breaking power is off, I am not going to fix it by making my muscles stronger.



Depends on the reason. If your punching power is off because you are weak then making yourself stronger will help a great deal.


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## Zeny (Jan 13, 2016)

I agree with what wc auckland has said, namely that resistance training is useless (or even detrimental) to achieve power.

Many wrongly assume that bigger muscles = stronger, and again i blame hollywood movies.

Real martial arts don't work like that, in fact a lot of martial arts theories don't make sense to an untrained person, which is why there is more bs in martial arts than any other sport.

I'm going to tell you, and i'm not charging anything for this advice, real explosive power comes from the reverse of resistance training (imagine running downhill). You want to remove tension and muscular force from your arm (defined as 'li' in chinese martial arts), and achieve springy explosive power (defined as 'jin' in chinese martial arts). That is why you would not want to go near anything resembling weight lifting, at all, as a wc practitioner. It doesn't make sense that a soft arm that does not appear to have any muscle at all can break your arm easily and effortlessly, but that's how it is. If you haven't touched or felt this kind of arm, you've been living under a rock. The sooner you accept it the better.

You can choose to continue your weight lifting training, that's your body and your perogative, but don't pass on this bs to your students, please. It will be a real sad day if after many years of training you finally realise all you are getting is 'li' and not real 'jin'. But by then it would be too late to recover all the lost years, at which point you will probably stubbornly insist that resistance training is correct because the truth is going to hurt, a lot.

And for this same exact reason, i disagree with wc auckland's method of practising the form against resistance. Forms should be practised until it is more comfortable and relaxing to do, over time, and not the reverse.


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## LFJ (Jan 13, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Weights are completely unnecessary (and probably even detrimental) for developing power.



Unnecessary? Maybe, but you won't reach anywhere near your potential.

Detrimental? Explain. If it's that "bulky muscle slows you down" nonsense, that's a myth/excuse.



> What makes you strong and powerful against a partner is using body structure, relaxation, alignment and correct limb movement which is learned in the forms.



That's like learning the olympic lifts but never loading the bar and thinking you're going to get stronger and more powerful. 

All you've done is learned the mechanics which of course is an essential stage, but again, if you don't load the bar you won't reach anywhere near your potential.



Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Boxers etc are not going to be doing heavy bench presses etc. Power in punching does not come from lifting heavy. With fighters I see a lot of plyometric stuff.



You think Mike Tyson was just born with that muscle mass or got it from plyometric stuff? He was in the gym moving heavy weights. Was he not a power puncher?



> His bigger muscled frame is going to slow him down



There it is! That's absolute nonsense and is the excuse skinny/weak people make for their inadequacy.

To quote Mark Rippetoe; "_Does a bigger motor slow the car down?_"

Ever notice the physique of a sprinter, some of the fastest people in the world? If the sprinter traded physiques with the marathon runner would that make him faster, you reckon?









Wing Chun Auckland said:


> "Nothing is more effective in training full body muscle recruitment than olympic lifting."
> For building muscle? Perhaps you are right. Does that equate to power in structure or punching power? Not necessarily.



You still don't seem to understand the difference between weightlifting and bodybuilding. Muscular hypertrophy is a byproduct of weightlifting. The goal is general power. The power trained by olympic lifts can carry over to any sport you apply it to. If it can improve a tennis player's game, how could it not improve a martial artist's if applied to punching mechanics?


Have a look at this video here. The first guy is pretty skinny. Yeah? But he's throwing well above his own bodyweight over his head. Same with the women. He's already developed great power without a lot of mass. Though, if he increased his muscle mass, no doubt his power output (strength displayed explosively) would also increase. 

Also notice his mobility, and in fact that of any olympic weightlifter. There is absolutely nothing about weightlifting to the detriment of a martial artist's goals. It would only optimize one's training.


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## LFJ (Jan 13, 2016)

Zeny said:


> You can choose to continue your weight lifting training, that's your body and your perogative, but don't pass on this bs to your students, please.



If mediocracy is your aim and that of your students', then by all means, but you sound like a teenager so I doubt you have any students.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 13, 2016)

"You need both plyometrics (neural) and weight (muscular) traning. Olympic weightlifting is somewhere in the middle, i.e. speed strength. They are combined and periodised in such a way as to be appropriate to whatever event the athlete is competing in. *It is what all athletes do.* It is pure gimmick to focus on plyos only as some kind of radical new thing. "

It's what all athletes do? Really? Your assertertion is that lifting heavy is an indispensable component of explosiveness and power development. I think that is a more radical stance than what I am saying. PLENTY of fighters stay away from heavy lifting or weights. And that is nothing new or gimicky. Muhamid Ali didn't lift weights. GSP has been on record saying he only does weights to make himself look good and marketable. Do Thai boxers lift weights? Do they lack power? 

"There is no competing definition of power. Power is work done fast. Amount of energy per unit time. Moving more to the force production side increases gross muscle recruitment, strength and yes size. Moving more to the speed side of it increases specific neural connection, firing rate, specific muscle recruitment. They work hand in hand. It is called complex training and has been used by athletes for decades."

We might be on different pages here. What is your definition of power as it applies to wing chun or fighting? How does it play a part? How does one use their 'superior power' from lifting weights to good effect in wing chun or fighting? 

"Training body mechanics is not the same as training power. Of course they can be linked, e.g. in poon sau, pole, chi sau"

Again, I need to know what you think power is when applied in wing chun and fighting. Because for me, body mechanics is exactly where the power comes from. 

"Depends on the reason. If your punching power is off because you are weak then making yourself stronger will help a great deal." 

Again, that is the last place I would make someone look if they lack power in their punches.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

LFJ,

"Unnecessary? Maybe, but you won't reach anywhere near your potential.
Detrimental? Explain. If it's that "bulky muscle slows you down" nonsense, that's a myth/excuse." 

My potential to lift weights will undoubtable suffer from not lifting weights. Applying that skill or abiliy to wing chun or fighting is what I am struggling with. In our school power and force is everything. When I see what my potential could be, I have only to look at teachers or seniors and follow the path set in front of me. They are not bigger or stronger than me yet their force output is superior to mine. Over the years mine has gotten better and better. A 60 year old man at the club can take my leg out with one kick from years and years of training. Yet strangely he has never done weight training..... I train another art that focusses on body mechanics. Same thing here. But now you have a Japanese guy able to shock poeple with his power. Again, he didn't get this from weight training. There are a 100 things that you should be doing being turning to weights to make you stronger. 


"You think Mike Tyson was just born with that muscle mass or got it from plyometric stuff? He was in the gym moving heavy weights. Was he not a power puncher?"

Do you think that Mike Tyson didn't already have knock out power? Mike Tyson has gone on record saying that his punching power comes from nothing more than heavy bag work. Isn't it pretty widely accepted that boxers turn to weights when they want to go up a weight class more than actually sports performance? 

"There it is! That's absolute nonsense and is the excuse skinny/weak people make for their inadequacy."
- Why do you think skinny people are inadequate? 

"Ever notice the physique of a sprinter, some of the fastest people in the world? If the sprinter traded physiques with the marathon runner would that make him faster, you reckon?"

How do you think sprinters got their physique? How did they get that muscle? Was it from lifting heavy? 

"You still don't seem to understand the difference between weightlifting and bodybuilding. Muscular hypertrophy is a byproduct of weightlifting. The goal is general power. The power trained by olympic lifts can carry over to any sport you apply it to. If it can improve a tennis player's game, how could it not improve a martial artist's if applied to punching mechanics?"

- Yep, I do understand. When I said "for building muscle", I really meant "for building strength". Sure anything can help. But is it optimal? Is it essential? Are there ways it can be damaging? Again, did Muhamid Ali need weights? Do Thai Boxers? GSP? How are/ were these people not at their full potential (or at least close)? 

"Have a look at this video here. The first guy is pretty skinny. Yeah? But he's throwing well above his own bodyweight over his head. Same with the women. He's already developed great power without a lot of mass. Though, if he increased his muscle mass, no doubt his power output (strength displayed explosively) would also increase."

Yeah he is really good and powerful at lifting a weight above his head. Explain how that relates to fighting or wing chun again?


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

Zenny,

Doing parts of the form against resistance doesn't require tensing the arm up at all. It is the opposite. You have to be extremely relaxed and in fact it should feel effortless. It is about getting your alignment set up and letting the joints freely rotate.


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## LFJ (Jan 14, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Yeah he is really good and powerful at lifting a weight above his head. Explain how that relates to fighting or wing chun again?



Gaining an understanding how general power development can be applied to any sport specific goal to enhance your performance, and why olympic weightlifting is the best method to reach your power potential will dispel all the misconceptions you have displayed on this topic.

It's a matter of optimizing energy transfer by developing kinetic chain efficiency. Again, your focus on alignment and body mechanics in your training is only teaching you _how_ to generate more power through movement, but not developing it above your current capacity. 

Your advancement in this is a result of improving your mechanics, but that is limited. By training with progressive overload you will actually be _developing_ your strength and power to reach your genetic potential. With greater raw power you will be imparting more force into your target through the body mechanics you've been training. You will be a more powerful puncher.

I suggest re-watching this guy's explanation of how weightlifting is useful for tennis players, as I'm sure you're equally unaware/skeptical of how lifting a weight over your head would related to the patterns of tennis swings. It's really the same principle that applies to striking in Wing Chun.


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## dudewingchun (Jan 14, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Gaining an understanding how general power development can be applied to any sport specific goal to enhance your performance, and why olympic weightlifting is the best method to reach your power potential will dispel all the misconceptions you have displayed on this topic.
> 
> It's a matter of optimizing energy transfer by developing kinetic chain efficiency. Again, your focus on alignment and body mechanics in your training is only teaching you _how_ to generate more power through movement, but not developing it above your current capacity.
> 
> ...



Wasnt this about Wing chun power generation ? Not general S  & C... thats got nothing to do with actual wing chun methods of generating power. I dont think Ip man taught anyone how to Deadlift or clean and press. Iv got nothing against weights as I personally do compound exercises.


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## LFJ (Jan 14, 2016)

dudewingchun said:


> Wasnt this about Wing chun power generation ? Not general S  & C... thats got nothing to do with actual wing chun methods of generating power. I dont think Ip man taught anyone how to Deadlift or clean and press. Iv got nothing against weights as I personally do compound exercises.



Yes, I originally just intended to make the suggestion to incorporate it into one's training because it is better than anything in the system for the purpose of general power development. Didn't expect much opposition or myth believers.

I just think it's good training for those who want to get closer to their genetic potential. It would only maximize your power for Wing Chun. Of course you can be effective without it, but why aim low?

Stone lock training has been used in TCMAs for centuries for developing power. It's not bodybuilding but power training. Olympic weightlifting is just a modern but far better and more efficient method to progressively train for raw power. The more powerful you are in general, the more powerful you will be when you apply it in sport-specific patterns.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

LFJ,

Yeah I can kind of see the message you are trying to put across in regards to body mechanics being the pathway if you will and strength being the engine. I still believe there is too much to refine and learn from in body mechanics, alignment and structure before you need to go making yourself stronger. 

Sure I could be underestimating the benefits of heavy lifting. Or you could be underestimating the power or alignment, body mechanics etc. 

I have seen many other versions of wing chun and martial arts in general. The first thing I find with them is they have poor mechanics. They cant deal with pressure. They have to divert, go around or speed up to compensate. Then THEY think I am using muscle. I am just using body mechanics. I am totally relaxed. You can refine to such high degrees. I can break/collapse the structures of people much bigger and stronger than me. In a drill I like to do when we stand straight and try to push into eacother's arms back, I can pretty much effortlessly push them back because I know how to source from my stance. I am not an expert by any means. But my limited knowledge and experience so far is showing me that there is much more important things to focus on than how strong I am. I am humbled myself all the time by one of my teachers who is a female who can do all this stuff on me and make me look weak. I know I am never going to overcome her by building strength. I need to refine my structure, alignment etc. Only then can I hope to have a chance. I look at the older teachers in my lineage who never cease to amaze me with the force they put out. Again it is their dedication to the training that got them this powerful. Not weightlifting.


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## Zeny (Jan 14, 2016)

Wc auckland, my primary art is taichi, and even in taichi there are people in my area that practise the taichi form while holding with both hands a basketball injected with sand as a form of strength and resistance training. Those people believe they are wholly correct, but if they enjoy the process who am i to stop them from doing it.

I know exactly what you mean when you say you practise the form against resistance but in a relaxed and effortless manner. Here are my thoughts. When you move in a relaxed manner against resistance, there is a very small amount of tension in order to maintain structure. You may feel like you are strengthening your structure, but in fact the reverse is true. If you practise your form without resistance, and for a long time, your familiarity with the movements and the frequent movements will further enhance your relaxation, and this relaxation actually (believe it or not) improves your structure and force generation. Sounds counter intuitive, but again, that's how it is.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

*Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power*

Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power

*UFC 124: Georges St. Pierre - "I Don't Believe in Strength and Conditioning... I Lift Weights for Looks"*


UFC 124: Georges St. Pierre - "I Don't Believe in Strength and Conditioning... I Lift Weights for Looks"


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## LFJ (Jan 14, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> *Why Lifting Weights Won’t Increase Punching Power*



Weightlifting
Bodybuilding
Powerlifting

You don't know the difference, do you?


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

Yep, body building for looks. 
powerlifting for lifting heavy ****
weightlifing I guess could be anything.


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## LFJ (Jan 14, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Yep, body building for looks.
> powerlifting for lifting heavy ****
> weightlifing I guess could be anything.



No. Weightlifting, the name of the sport, refers to the olympic lifts.

A snatch or clean must be done with relaxed arms too. It's not a reverse curl or arm pull. It's the lower body that generates the force that brings the weight up. You can't really tell when the weight gets very heavy, but it's actually a jump, an explosion from the lower body with triple extension of the hips, knees, and ankles.

This ability to explode from the ground is what carries over to a powerful Wing Chun punch which also drives from the legs and explodes into the target. Doing this with progressively heavier weights only builds your power. It has nothing to do with pushing heavy weights like a bodybuilder or powerlifter.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

Zenny
"I know exactly what you mean when you say you practise the form against resistance but in a relaxed and effortless manner. Here are my thoughts. When you move in a relaxed manner against resistance, there is a very small amount of tension in order to maintain structure. You may feel like you are strengthening your structure, but in fact the reverse is true. If you practise your form without resistance, and for a long time, your familiarity with the movements and the frequent movements will further enhance your relaxation, and this relaxation actually (believe it or not) improves your structure and force generation. Sounds counter intuitive, but again, that's how it is."

Yeah that sounds right. Sometimes I might feel a slight compression or buzz in my lower spine. And the person holding my arm just goes back and it seems like my arms are not meeting any resistance. When I ty to teach this to people, I start by making them go completely limp so that if I let go of them, their arm would fall. That's how relaxed they need to be. But most people hold so much tension in the shoulders anyway that they dont move smoothly.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 14, 2016)

Oh ok, I always thought of weightlifting as a generic term that encompasses all types of lifting. 

Yep, well, I do another internal martial art that has a heavy focus on doing deep squats while moving arms in various ways ..... among other things. One of them actually looks like a power clean i.e. while we are deep in the squat, our arms are going straight up like we are holding something heavy. And we learn to feel the load from this arm position load the shoulder joints and pelvic floor (it's called Tenchijin).  A teacher might push on our hands to make sure we are aligned and our legs take the load. 

Also we learn how to hold and redirect pressure from in a squat. There are very precise body mechanics we are trying to do with these movements. So I have a sense of what you are trying to tell me with kenetic linking etc. 

That said, we do all this without weights and get good results in terms of force development, body mechanics etc. The founder of this art is only 60 kgs and is extremely powerful.


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## LFJ (Jan 14, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> Oh ok, I always thought of weightlifting as a generic term that encompasses all types of lifting.



You might be looking for "weight training". I've only been talking about the olympic lifts from the sport of Weightlifting, not any other kind of weight training like "Powerlifting" which is really a misnomer.



> Also we learn how to hold and redirect pressure from in a squat. There are very precise body mechanics we are trying to do with these movements. So I have a sense of what you are trying to tell me with kenetic linking etc.
> 
> That said, we do all this without weights and get good results in terms of force development, body mechanics etc. The founder of this art is only 60 kgs and is extremely powerful.



Interesting. What's the style?

I would say try adding weights and see what results you get, but I'd just be repeating myself and taking up too much space in this thread to make one point....


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## KPM (Jan 14, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> " Do Thai boxers lift weights? Do they lack power?
> 
> .


 
Thai Boxers have plenty of power.  But they also typically have pretty good muscle mass!  You can be sure that they are doing some  strength and power training even if it isn't lifting weights in a western sense.  They are doing plenty of calisthenics and such that promote strength gains.  You seem to be arguing against the specific use of barbell weights.  I have simply been arguing for training that increases muscle strength.   Doing lots of push ups can help punching power.  And this isn't so different than doing a bench press with a barbell weight.


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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2016)

Zeny said:


> I agree with what wc auckland has said, namely that resistance training is useless (or even detrimental) to achieve power.
> 
> Many wrongly assume that bigger muscles = stronger, and again i blame hollywood movies.



Many wrongly assume that weight training=bigger muscles.

The advantages of resistance training in human performance is pretty much established science.

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## Tgace (Jan 14, 2016)

Power = speed x strength

Power is strength applied at speed. To be powerful you have to be strong. You need to have good balance and coordination, to direct and control the application of strength at speed. 

Plyometrics is a power training technique, but inexperienced plyo training is a path to injury. Almost every trainer uses plyo in conjunction with other forms of strength training.



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## dudewingchun (Jan 14, 2016)

LFJ said:


> Yes, I originally just intended to make the suggestion to incorporate it into one's training because it is better than anything in the system for the purpose of general power development. Didn't expect much opposition or myth believers.
> 
> I just think it's good training for those who want to get closer to their genetic potential. It would only maximize your power for Wing Chun. Of course you can be effective without it, but why aim low?
> 
> Stone lock training has been used in TCMAs for centuries for developing power. It's not bodybuilding but power training. Olympic weightlifting is just a modern but far better and more efficient method to progressively train for raw power. The more powerful you are in general, the more powerful you will be when you apply it in sport-specific patterns.



I completely agree with what you saying about weights. Just hasnt been passed down as a conditioning method for Wing chun itself. I know that some cma use Stone locks and the Stone Yoke ( which is just a barbell ). I remember reading an old book which described a stone yoke exercises that was just clean and press 20 times a day pretty much.

Heres a picture of a guy holding a 75kg barbell on his arms.


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## mograph (Jan 14, 2016)

Tgace said:


> Many wrongly assume that weight training=bigger muscles.


Ah. Motor recruitment vs. hypertrophy?


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 16, 2016)

I am yet to meet people from other schools (and I have seen many and actually practiced two major ones)  who have the power that our one has. I don't mean to be boastful. I actually see a lot of weaknesses in the system I do. Practicality, application, fight skill, self-defence are some of the areas where we as a lineage and school are probably outshined by other schools. I can totally understand why someone would choose a more practical system of ours. It's a choice. I prefer power and force generation over fighting ability. Mainly because I see it as having the biggest long-term benefits. 

As a lineage and school we focus pretty much exclusively on power and force (again, probably at the detriment of fighting skill, application etc). So of course we are going to be good at exerting force and power if nothing else. All the form moves must be done against someone using muscular resistance to stop us. Even chum kiu and biu jee. Every other lineage I have met cannot even turn let alone know how to use their arm structures to do a move. Most look at chum kiu not as a method of force generation, like we do, but of application and moves. That is fine, both appear to be correct. 

To me there are way too many variables involved, in exerting force on a partner, for strength to even come into the equation. This has been my observation. I am yet to meet other people outside the two schools that I practice at to have a strong stance etc. Stance is just one example. But without that, strength is going to be useless anyway. For us we spend a long time training to release muscles that seem natural to use in exerting force but are in fact preventing us from achieving our full potential. While we know we must be using muscle (otherwise we wouldn't be able to move anything, right?), we think or imagine that we are trying not to use any at all. This is a science in and of itself. 

The problem we might see with using lifting as a tool to get power in wing chun is when the weight is so heavy that you are recruiting every muscle that you can to lift that weight. Then you bring that to a structure test or breaking structure in chi sao etc. and you are using too much muscle for the task. Again we spend a lot of time rewiring ourselves to drop use of major muscle groups which initially seems counter-intuitive. 

A basic principle in internal martial arts is the more relaxed you are, the more you can integrate your whole mass, weight and redirect force from the ground. In recent years, internal martial artists interested in linking this to science have been pointing to fascia as one possible reason for this. I am sure skeletal alignment and other things are part of it too. So an example we might use is if I hold out a tan sau or a fist getting reading to move it forward and you use muscle to prevent it from moving forward. If I was to try and do the natural thing that and tense up to move the arm forward, several things might happen. I might push myself back and have to step back. Some force might go into my partner and some back into me. The force has been locked into my tense shoulder and caught there. In internal martial arts, any part that is tense is a point of purchase upon which a partner can use to affect your balance. 

However, if I can relax my body, align myself, rotate the joints freely, integrate my mass etc. my arm will go forward and it will be the partner who absorbs all the force and not me. When we punch it's the same thing. We don't want to feel that vibrating impact of the force to come back into our body. We want the partner to absorb it. 

There actually are people within our lineage that lift weights obviously. I know of two who are teachers. One is a very big, tall and muscular guy who used to be a teacher under a different lineage. One day he went and rolled at a CST school and almost got his arm dislocated by a one of CST top students who was very small (and who has since passed away). He has converted and is now one of the leading teachers in this lineage. He is still big and strong and possibly his bigger mass and weight helps him to be as powerful as he is. However, he has had to be very careful and apparently work harder than anyone to make sure he is not relying on muscle to power his moves. The less muscle he uses the more he can access his mass and weight and mass. 

So anyway this is my point of view. I have spent enough time (too much really!) defending it. So I will stop now. I keep an open mind. If I come across another wing chunner who can do what we do and who has used some form of lifting to help improve his force beyond what is possible in our linegae, I will no doubt fully reconsider this point of view.


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## guy b. (Jan 16, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland said:


> The problem we might see with using lifting as a tool to get power in wing chun is when the weight is so heavy that you are recruiting every muscle that you can to lift that weight. Then you bring that to a structure test or breaking structure in chi sao etc. and you are using too much muscle for the task. Again we spend a lot of time rewiring ourselves to drop use of major muscle groups which initially seems counter-intuitive.
> 
> A basic principle in internal martial arts is the more relaxed you are, the more you can integrate your whole mass, weight and redirect force from the ground. In recent years, internal martial artists interested in linking this to science have been pointing to fascia as one possible reason for this. I am sure skeletal alignment and other things are part of it too. So an example we might use is if I hold out a tan sau or a fist getting reading to move it forward and you use muscle to prevent it from moving forward. If I was to try and do the natural thing that and tense up to move the arm forward, several things might happen. I might push myself back and have to step back. Some force might go into my partner and some back into me. The force has been locked into my tense shoulder and caught there. In internal martial arts, any part that is tense is a point of purchase upon which a partner can use to affect your balance.
> 
> However, if I can relax my body, align myself, rotate the joints freely, integrate my mass etc. my arm will go forward and it will be the partner who absorbs all the force and not me. When we punch it's the same thing. We don't want to feel that vibrating impact of the force to come back into our body. We want the partner to absorb it.



When you are talking about pushing yourself back, tense shoulders, and so on you are talking about inefficient use of body mechanics. The feeling you are describing is not the use of muscular power, it is just the feeling of incorrect mechanics. You are relaxing to try and avoid incorrect mechanics which is fair enough. But you are incorrectly identifying bodily power with incorrect mechanics, which couldn't be more wrong. 

Force generation is maximised via the use of efficient body mechanics coupled with whole body power, both muscular and neurological coupled with directionally trained power, both muscular and neurological. Power is trained by moving weight fast (because that is what power is) with correct bodily mechanics.


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## Wing Chun Auckland (Jan 16, 2016)

Yep, correct use of mechanics which I haven't seen many other people have. Also this use of mechanics and force direction etc is huge. Its a huge field. That's why you can have little guys pushing around big guys. You will never be done refining them.


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## KPM (Jan 16, 2016)

Wing Chun Auckland, thank you for your comments above.  You provide us with a perfect example of how  someone can defend their lineage, describe what they think is different and good about it....all in a polite and tactful way.


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