# "Standard Strikes" Remy Presas taught?



## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2004)

*Note - I started a new thread based on the following post by Paul Martin. Dan Anderson* 
Sort of a short tangent to this topic: What are the "standard strikes" that RP did teach as part of a "Complete Modern Arnis" system? Is there a list of 'strikes/kicks' that Remy actually taught?

Where did RP draw these strikes/locks/throws from: Shotokan, Small Circle, FMA's or boxing?

Honestly, other than stick stuff, most of the empty hand intricacies that I have seen from videos/presentation seem to be stuff that RP 'stole' (his term) because he liked it and incorporated it. 
The closed fist punching looks like either karate or boxing (depending on when and where he is striking). 
The kicking, which is minimal also looks karate like. The throws/locks look basically universal to most grappling/throwing arts whether FMA "Dumog" or "JiuJutsu" or Mixed Martial Arts. 
The anyos patterns look like standard karate "H" kata work with very little of the Triangulatory movement that the self defense/give and take drills and applications all seem to reinforce.

I think the strength of MA is that you can jump into it with both feet and not have to 'give up' your other training because you can retool/reorganize your already existing skills into the conceptual structure of Modern Arnis. Yes, there is a spine of skills and drills that make up the physical art but I think the actual understanding/idea goal of conceptual training is the signature element of Modern Arnis. Part of the reason that RP has students that move uniquely is because of how he could fold in any previous training into their current MA progress instead of considering this stuff "bad habits" that have to be broken.

I have studied/dabbled in various arts including Military hand to hand, MP defensive tactics, Karate, TKD, Boxing, Ryukyu Kempo, Tracy Kenpo, and other arts and have found that I can apply almost all of that stuff into the conceptual training of MA and be a better artist because of it.

Part of the RP/MA legacy is to seek understanding of how movement and ideas relate so that any technique can be made useful if applied correctly, regardless of where it came from before it was incorporated into the MA training.
__________________
Paul R. Martin

The actions of men are the best interpreters of their thoughts.
John Locke (1632 - 1704)

Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends.
J. R. R. Tolkien (1892 - 1973), The Lord Of the Rings, Book Four, Chapter One


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## loki09789 (Aug 3, 2004)

Thanks Dan.  I was typing quickly late last night and didn't even consider taking this to another thread.

I hope that even the "I don't know what the complete list is but this is what we learned from RP" or the "I didn't learn any strikes from RP but he let us use strikes xyz" responses are included here.  I think some real perspective about what MA is or is not can be revealed by reflecting on what was and was not taught by RP.


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2004)

Hi Paul,

Good line of questioning.  I think the person who could definitively answer that question would be Roland Dantes.  My thoughts, however, are:

_Certain kinds of striking_: karate.  According to RP and others, both karate and judo were more popular than indigineous (sp) FMA when he was growing up.  I don't know what the exact striking techniques were that was based on them empty hand actions of the cane/blade.  

_Kicking_ - same.  The empty hand anyos show a lot of karate influence.
Keep in mind that he trained with Dr. Guillermo Lengson, who was known for his karate skills.  That could be where he got his karate training.

_Joint locking_ - It appears (from seeing other FMA) that there is indigineous joint locking inherent in FMA.  I do know the SCJJ influenced RP heavily.  The Modern Arnis flowing locks were large circular actions.  After RP hooked up with Wally Jay, the flow locks became smaller and tighter in action...and they hurt like hell.



> I think the strength of MA is that you can jump into it with both feet and not have to 'give up' your other training because you can retool/reorganize your already existing skills into the conceptual structure of Modern Arnis.


I think that is a strength of Modern Arnis as well.  The _art within your art _ concept was far more than a marketing tool (And it was one hell of a marketing tool a that!).  It enabled anyone from any martial art to hook in to the art.  I began as strictly, in MMA terms, a striker.  It completely changed my martial arts.

I do believe despite whatever other outside arts RP incorporated to make Modern Arnis, it is a complete, stand alone art.  The cool thing about MA is you can have it either way and it still flows.  I teach both karate and Modern Arnis in my school as stand alone programs.  I only have a couple of cross trainers in the Modern Arnis program.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## loki09789 (Aug 3, 2004)

Thanks for the feedback Dan.

To speed things up and, possibly to reduce the 'political agendizing' I am really looking for a list of empty hand strikes/kicks/throws that RP actually taught within his curriculum/rank/promotion track.

Something like:
When I tested for belt x, I had to demonstrate the following strikes/kicks/throws and learned them from RP or an assistant instructor at the seminar/camp/event.

I, honestly never saw in video or the little face time I spent with RP him teach any strikes per say.  He did demonstrate/teach the locking/pressur point stuff as part of his stuff (which he was VERY good at btw) but I have never seen anyone or heard anyone who has said that RP taught them kick x or punch y.  It seems that the actual technical development along those lines he didn't have time for or an interest in teaching because he assumed you either had it already or would get it from a local/primary instructor.

In his yellow book I don't see a single closed "fist" strike.  Loose open hand strikes, palm strikes and the occasional 'hammer fist' strike.


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## Flatlander (Aug 3, 2004)

Maybe this doesn't fit here...there is a cane strike that I have learned that comes off out of the striking side armpit, using the body as a 'counter force' point to allow the strike to whip right out.  What is that called? (if you can understand my lame description)


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## Guro Harold (Aug 3, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Maybe this doesn't fit here...there is a cane strike that I have learned that comes off out of the striking side armpit, using the body as a 'counter force' point to allow the strike to whip right out.  What is that called? (if you can understand my lame description)


"Pretty Cool!!!", if you can pull it off. 

In all honesty, I am unsure if it has a name, I use it in my Carenza though.


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## Guro Harold (Aug 3, 2004)

The standard hand strikes and kicks are shown in the anyos:

Here are some
-------------
Backfist.
Straight Punch.
Ridge hand.
Knife-hand.
Bolo Punch.

Kicks
-----
Front snap.
Side kick
Cross behind.


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## arnisandyz (Aug 3, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Maybe this doesn't fit here...there is a cane strike that I have learned that comes off out of the striking side armpit, using the body as a 'counter force' point to allow the strike to whip right out.  What is that called? (if you can understand my lame description)



don't know the tagalog or Filipino translation, be our group refers to it  a "spring load" for obvious reasons.  You can also do it using your your free hand, your legs, or your opponents stick and limbs.


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## loki09789 (Aug 3, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> The standard hand strikes and kicks are shown in the anyos:
> 
> Here are some
> -------------
> ...


So any other strikes that someone who is teaching MA as  a complete art is 'outside' MA and not doing 'true' MA?

Did RP use tagolog or english terms for these strikes?  Where they taught/drilled/evaluated anywhere other than in the anyos?


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## Flatlander (Aug 3, 2004)

What's the 'bolo punch'?


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## Guro Harold (Aug 3, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> What's the 'bolo punch'?


It's basically an uppercut.  It is used in moves #3 and #6 of Anyo 5.


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## Guro Harold (Aug 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> *1.* So any other strikes that someone who is teaching MA as  a complete art is 'outside' MA and not doing 'true' MA?
> 
> *2.* Did RP use tagolog or english terms for these strikes?  Where they taught/drilled/evaluated anywhere other than in the anyos?



1. That's hard to say.  MA is a collage of various influences built upon the foundations the Presas Family Arnis system and Balintawak.  Also, GM Presas had his own type of personal style that would be emulated too.  So basically, its not just the curriculum but also the how and why application is executed that could be a factor of determination.

2. The Professor used a mix of tagalog, english and tenglish.

Best regards,

Palusut


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 3, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> *1.  *So any other strikes that someone who is teaching MA as  a complete art is 'outside' MA and not doing 'true' MA?
> 
> *2.  *Did RP use tagolog or english terms for these strikes?  Where they taught/drilled/evaluated anywhere other than in the anyos?



Paul,
1. Not necessarily.  A good example is the obstruction removal drill where the follow up is a back palm to the ear or a circle palm to the ear.  They are not in the anyos but he taught them.

2.  He never used tagalog terms with me...for hardly anything.  He may have with others.  In addition, he may have approved when someone else would use a tagalog term as well.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (Aug 3, 2004)

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 1. Not necessarily.  A good example is the obstruction removal drill where the follow up is a back palm to the ear or a circle palm to the ear.  They are not in the anyos but he taught them.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson



The basic energy of that counter is in the form, though.  That was the beauty of "making the connection" and the "transitions".  The statement "it's all in there" certainly relates without having to stretch it too much.

Also, that same motion can even be used in the diving throws.

Harold


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## Cruentus (Aug 3, 2004)

Man, I'd love to elaborate on this, but because of lack of time I may not get to it til' thursday or friday...

In Modern Arnis, we actually have a ton of strikes and empty hand techniques that are very filipino, along with the Karate and other stuff. Much of this wasn't covered at seminars.

The Flint Club (FMAC) calls these "special strikes." I will hope that Rich Parsons will jump in and take it from here, as I have to go....

 :ultracool


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 8, 2004)

Brush Grab and Strike (Redondo with the empty hands)

The palm strike to the ear I think was a technique he would often show off of this even though it wasn't in the anyos.

I think GM Remy also taught not only the striking techniques (punch, backfist, etc. etc.) but also some of the translations of stick techniques to empty hands. banda y banda, the opening and closing the X (gunting), BGS mentioned above etc. etc.

Mark


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## Guro Harold (Aug 8, 2004)

The Boar Man said:
			
		

> Brush Grab and Strike (Redondo with the empty hands)
> 
> The palm strike to the ear I think was a technique he would often show off of this even though it wasn't in the anyos.
> 
> ...


Hi Mark,

I think the key word that you mentioned was translations.  Though an exact technique might not be in the form, the translation or application is present, even for the palm strike that definitely relates to trapping hands with a backfist or redonda or in form #5 with the push.

Harold


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## loki09789 (Aug 8, 2004)

Palusut said:
			
		

> Hi Mark,
> 
> I think the key word that you mentioned was translations. Though an exact technique might not be in the form, the translation or application is present, even for the palm strike that definitely relates to trapping hands with a backfist or redonda or in form #5 with the push.
> 
> Harold


THere is a distinction between 'teaching' any of these empty hand strikes/kicks and such and just demonstrating these techniques to people with the assumption that they already know them from previous martial arts training in other arts.  So, for the sake of clarification here:

By 'teaching' do you mean that RP demonstrated the technique, explained the mechanics of it, and then had you do multiple repetitions to develop proficiency AND THEN put it into a drill or movement pattern like Redonda, Siniwali...?

OR

Did he simply demonstrate 'you can do this' and one of the things that he points out is a backfist, punch.... and lets you try it out as part of a possible application of a conceptual movement?

The first will keep you from breaking your wrist/fingers because of technical skill as well as improve effectiveness.  The second is example and option that leaves you to work on teaching yourself the technical efficiency.

Which one did RP really do?


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## Guro Harold (Aug 8, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> THere is a distinction between 'teaching' any of these empty hand strikes/kicks and such and just demonstrating these techniques to people with the assumption that they already know them from previous martial arts training in other arts.  So, for the sake of clarification here:
> 
> By 'teaching' do you mean that RP demonstrated the technique, explained the mechanics of it, and then had you do multiple repetitions to develop proficiency AND THEN put it into a drill or movement pattern like Redonda, Siniwali...?
> 
> ...



From what I hear a little of both.

GM Presas used to conduct week - two week seminars where there was more detailed drilling of basics.

In the later years, however, perfect details were not a priority in the seminars themselves but essense of the technique that he was teaching, though, he noticed the individual details of the students.

So it appeared to me that he concentrated on the attribute of a skill or technique, the safety of the group involved (if it was too dangerous, he would modify the technique), and the legality of the technique (self-defense).

His focus was how to do the technique correctly and to practice it to make it yours!!!


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## loki09789 (Aug 8, 2004)

Thanks for the reply Palusut.  I hope my posted questioning isn't coming off as veiled RP bashing because that is far from my intention.  Based on my own research and study, RP seemed to focus more on creating conceptual understanding and the techniques were simply vehicles to illustrate them.

For the most part, RP was dealing with previously trained artists with at least a fundamental base of stance, striking and blocking skills.  Even the people who trained privately with him during those 'between seminar' times were already versed in many of the basics.

That said, IMO, RP pushed MA as a conceptual art and was not nearly as caught up on the details as the rest of us seem to be.

Beyond the fundamental strikes, blocks, 12 angles and all the ways that the structure of the 12 angles are combined and drilled to introduce the concepts that he based MA on, there really aren't any nailed down 'techniques' on the empty hand side.  They were examples of how these concepts can be applied, but there doesn't seem to be any nailed down specifics that RP required for the empty hand side.  If you could make it work for you, the strikes didn't seem to matter as much as the conceptual mastery and the fact that you made it work.

So far, everything that people are posting reinforces that idea.  I am interested in any different views and experiences though.


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## Mark Lynn (Aug 9, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> Thanks for the reply Palusut.  I hope my posted questioning isn't coming off as veiled RP bashing because that is far from my intention. 1) Based on my own research and study, RP seemed to focus more on creating conceptual understanding and the techniques were simply vehicles to illustrate them.
> 
> 2) For the most part, RP was dealing with previously trained artists with at least a fundamental base of stance, striking and blocking skills.  Even the people who trained privately with him during those 'between seminar' times were already versed in many of the basics.
> 
> ...



Paul
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) I would agree here, at least in the USA but I wonder about the Philippines training.

2) I agree with you here too.

3) I still agree with you

4) I pretty much agree with you here.  
However it depends upon the way you look at it.  Take the drill (I think is called) Opening and closing the X (gunting) the drill is a flow drill, and yet the mechanics behind the drill involve hitting the arm (as in a arm destruction) now granted you wouldn't stand and punch in mid air simulating striking the arm, however you would drill the technique sololy in the air first at his command and then with a partner.  So you got the mechanics (or motion)  down and then you applied it.  But you were taught the strike in a sense.

Same with the backfist, jab, cross or the bolo punch.  In the Sinawali Boxing drills you used these techniques, as well as the clearing or parrying motions.  Again Remy would stand in front of the class and go through the hand signals to have the student practice the technique and then go into partner drills to apply them.

This is why I have questioned so much in my postings about the relationship between what Remy taught his older students in the Philippines, and how his art relates to Ernesto's and such.  Because like Dieter said in one post (in a sense) what I see from Ernesto looks closer to what Remy taught/was like in the Philippines.  Well Ernesto teaches a multitude of different hand strikes and kicks (I think there are 20 techniques) and the majority of them I've seen Remy do (the hand techniques at least) but not taught as in a class setting.  Rather it was covered in a drill or an application of some sort. 

If Remy were teaching a class from scratch today would he teach the same way as he did to his seminar students.  Or would he change the method of instruction to cover more of the basic mechanics of how to do something?

I think he taught in the most effective way he could, that is teaching to a large segment of the audience (those with prior training and knowledge of the martial arts) and using them to help the beginners who need help.  So he didn't cover the nuts and blots basics that an instructor would have to cover with a new person.

Oh well this is my rambling post for the night.    

Mark


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## Dan Anderson (Aug 10, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> THere is a distinction between 'teaching' any of these empty hand strikes/kicks and such and just demonstrating these techniques to people with the assumption that they already know them from previous martial arts training in other arts.  So, for the sake of clarification here:
> 
> By 'teaching' do you mean that RP demonstrated the technique, explained the mechanics of it, and then had you do multiple repetitions to develop proficiency AND THEN put it into a drill or movement pattern like Redonda, Siniwali...?
> 
> ...



In a sense, neither.  RP _never_ explained the mechanics of striking.  He was in the same situation as the founder of bagua, Tung Hai Chuan - he taught established martial artists (in this case established means if you had any training whatsoever).  He would demonstrate the strike within the context of the move and tell you to do it.  It was not in the context of _part of a possible application of a conceptual movement._

Locking was different.  Here he went into a bit more detail.  



> Based on my own research and study, RP seemed to focus more on creating conceptual understanding and the techniques were simply vehicles to illustrate them.



Paul, I think that you and many "conceptualizers" are reading far more into why and how RP taught than what was there.  Conceptual thinkers think in conceptual terms.  He spoke in general terms regarding concepts.  He would stress the flow and other aspects but he never got into it that far like you and Bram.  He would make simple comments like, _"If he goes like this, you are there already."_  He would be speaking simply and we would make them into cryptic statements to be delved into and pondered over laborously.

I think RP was a lot like Morihei Uyeshiba in that he did far more demonstrating and doing than explaining.  He left the explaining for us to figure out.

Mark, from my sources RP's Modern Arnis back in the earlier days in the PI was closer to EP's Kombatan.  I have a film of RP in 1975 that demonstrates "pink book" material which is more Kombatan-ish in execution than US Remy Presas movement.  Interesting stuff.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## clockexit (Aug 10, 2004)

flatlander said:
			
		

> Maybe this doesn't fit here...there is a cane strike that I have learned that comes off out of the striking side armpit, using the body as a 'counter force' point to allow the strike to whip right out.  What is that called? (if you can understand my lame description)



As taught by Master Sunny Umpad it is called Interior Sinawali.In Modern Arnis we call it Whip Striking.We teach it coming out   from the armpit either horizontal or vertical...Gray Wolf


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