# Knee cartilage - what's my outlook?



## Orion Nebula (Nov 15, 2019)

Calling all folks with knee knowledge! 

I've been training for almost 10 months, and I've had knee issues on and off for the past 6 months. I finally went to the sports doc and started physical therapy in September, which helped immensely. However, I seem to have developed a whole new knee problem. At our last seminar, I had a sharp pain under my knee cap when I did a round kick on someone, and since then my knee hasn't been the same. I spent a week in Canada at a conference shortly after the karate seminar, and walking up stairs was pretty painful, even occasionally just walking hurt. One day I forgot to take my anti-inflammatory and I spent the whole day wiggling around because my knee would hurt if I left it in any one position for too long. 

I resumed therapy when I returned and it's helping, but I also followed up with the doc who suspects I have some softening of the articular cartilage that lines the groove which the patella sits in, which is causing irritation and pain. We have to do a little hoop jumping to get my insurance to pay for an MRI, so we don't know for sure what's going on in there right now. He suggested I try a supplement called CH alpha which is supposed to help restore softened cartilage and continue with physical therapy for a month, then we'll start bugging the insurance company for an MRI if there's no improvement.

So my questions for all of you knee people - has anyone used CH alpha and did it do what it claims? Let's say it does help... what's the likelihood of developing more cartilage issues down the road, especially if I stop taking it? The stuff is $55 for a 30 day supply... that's more than my monthly karate dues! Thinking about my physical therapy, we're mainly focusing on fixing muscle tightness and imbalance and strengthening muscles around the knee. It seems to be pretty standard therapy for a few different knee problems. How have other people made out that have done this kind of therapy?

Mostly, I'd just like to know if there's a good outlook for this. I'm feeling pretty down because I've been out of class a lot lately because of the pain, and when I'm in class, my performance is pretty terrible. My stances are shallow, my turns on the affected leg are slow, kicks are pretty lame, I have little power, and really everything just feels off because of my lower body being off.


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## dvcochran (Nov 16, 2019)

***Standard disclaimer. Get advise from a health professional. 
I did a little surfing and do see that CH alpha has a patented compound. That May make it more effective But I doubt it. There are tons of supplements out there that claim to improve joint health for less $$$. Most of what they do can be accomplished with eating the right foods. 
From what I have studied and been told by Orthopedic doctors is once cartilage is damage it is damaged. New cartilage can be regrown by the bodies bone structure but it requires surgery to make small cuts in the bone surface to cause bleeding. Once cartilage matures is has no blood flow to help it regenerate, hence the "bone cutting". This is all certainly over my head. I have been told this surgery is only suggested for fit athletes. 

I am no doctor but I have to do a lot of diagnostics in my work. That said, since you really don't know if there is a definite issue going on inside the knee it is well worth "going to battle" with the insurance company to get an MRI. I agree that it is wrong that we have to fight so hard for good health care but so be it. It is hard to know what to do until you really know what is going on. 
For several years I had a tear behind the Patella that would "flap" open occasionally and hurt like hxxx. A simple outpatient surgery fixed the issue. Like you, I went for a long time thinking it was just inflammation and irritation. 

Are joint supplements good or bad? I don't know. I take Glucosamine/Chondroitin twice a day and I do believe it helps my joint pain. Plus I have had multiple doctors recommend it. I have one knee that is shot with no cartilage left so no amount of supplements will help. The other knee, while out of place and messed up in it's own way, still has cartilage so I take the supplements. 
Time. Time is the greatest healer in my opinion. Research the foods that aid in joint health. I fully believe in them. Physical therapy is a very good thing; talk to your therapist about progressive therapy. 
Listen to your body but don't floorboard the gas pedal when you are feeling good. Establish a workout/exercise schedule and stick to it and you will get back to where you were and more. 

You did not mention your age but the "itis" brothers are real bastards.


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## Buka (Nov 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> ***Standard disclaimer. Get advise from a health professional.
> I did a little surfing and do see that CH alpha has a patented compound. That May make it more effective But I doubt it. There are tons of supplements out there that claim to improve joint health for less $$$. Most of what they do can be accomplished with eating the right foods.
> From what I have studied and been told by Orthopedic doctors is once cartilage is damage it is damaged. New cartilage can be regrown by the bodies bone structure but it requires surgery to make small cuts in the bone surface to cause bleeding. Once cartilage matures is has no blood flow to help it regenerate, hence the "bone cutting". This is all certainly over my head. I have been told this surgery is only suggested for fit athletes.
> 
> ...



Oh, them “itis brothers”. Bastards have been with me since I was a kid. I swear to God the only reason I’ve lived this long relatively healthy is because of Martial Arts training.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> Calling all folks with knee knowledge!
> 
> I've been training for almost 10 months, and I've had knee issues on and off for the past 6 months. I finally went to the sports doc and started physical therapy in September, which helped immensely. However, I seem to have developed a whole new knee problem. At our last seminar, I had a sharp pain under my knee cap when I did a round kick on someone, and since then my knee hasn't been the same. I spent a week in Canada at a conference shortly after the karate seminar, and walking up stairs was pretty painful, even occasionally just walking hurt. One day I forgot to take my anti-inflammatory and I spent the whole day wiggling around because my knee would hurt if I left it in any one position for too long.
> 
> ...



I can only give you my experience.  Long story short.  I used to think I had bad knees. It would get so bad that I couldn't go up and down the steps.  Of my classmates was a doctor and he was able to fix both of my knees.  He's an Alternative medicine doctor.  He said that the reason my knees were hurting was because the tendon was wrapped around in a bad, (something like that).  any way.  He fixed it. right their on the spot took him may 10 minutes.  The point I'm getting at is that sometimes Modern doctors don't have all of the answers.  When I here statements like.  "Doctor suspects softening of the articular cartilage ..."  To me that's an uncertain answer in which maybe an alternative medicine doctor may have some idea.  When I say alternative medicine doctor, I don't mean one of those crazy guys who don't believe in modern medicine.  I'm talking about the ones who do both modern medicine and alternative medicine.    Those doctors may know something that the modern doctors may not understand yet.

Either that or a test that can show what's really going on and if there is some physical damage.  Either way getting professional medical advice is the best way to go even if you have to shop around.

It might do well to get a second opinion and second perspective before


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 16, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> From what I have studied and been told by Orthopedic doctors is once cartilage is damage it is damaged. New cartilage can be regrown by the bodies bone structure but it requires surgery to make small cuts in the bone surface to cause bleeding.


I read this and thought about my pinky.  The problem is that my pinky is hollow.  It grows cartilage instead of bone.  It breaks really easy because there's nothing but a thin layer of bone with a cartilage filling.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 16, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I read this and thought about my pinky.  The problem is that my pinky is hollow.  It grows cartilage instead of bone.  It breaks really easy because there's nothing but a thin layer of bone with a cartilage filling.


That's unusual. Does the condition have a name?

Next time I come through Georgia we can compare weird pinkies. I'm missing a metacarpal and my left pinky is just loosely connected to the side of my hand with no knuckle.


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## Buka (Nov 17, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's unusual. Does the condition have a name?
> 
> Next time I come through Georgia we can compare weird pinkies. I'm missing a metacarpal and my left pinky is just loosely connected to the side of my hand with no knuckle.



For some reason I picture an x-ray of you two doing a pinkie swear. Yikes!


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's unusual. Does the condition have a name?


 I call it a Jacked up finger.   I had an injury to it when I was teen but I didn't think it did any real damage. I had a chain link dog chain wrapped around my hand.  My dog took off running and the chain tightened around my hand . I tried to unravel it but was too slow and eventually it pulled around my pinky.   I'm assuming that's why it's like that.

The doctor didn't say that it had a name, just that cartilage grew where bone should grow, and the only way to fix it is to scrape out the cartilage and put bone there.  Being that the only time I've broken it is during sparring. I figured that I'll just live with it.  I was originally going to get it fix so I could do some competitive fights, but now that I'm too hold with some additional health issues., It looks like that ship has sailed for me.

 When I do finger push ups I have to move it out of the way and not put pressure on it.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Buka said:


> For some reason I picture an x-ray of you two doing a pinkie swear. Yikes!


ha ha ha.  I wonder if I have access to my xray.


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## Orion Nebula (Nov 17, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> ***Standard disclaimer. Get advise from a health professional.
> I did a little surfing and do see that CH alpha has a patented compound. That May make it more effective But I doubt it. There are tons of supplements out there that claim to improve joint health for less $$$. Most of what they do can be accomplished with eating the right foods.
> From what I have studied and been told by Orthopedic doctors is once cartilage is damage it is damaged. New cartilage can be regrown by the bodies bone structure but it requires surgery to make small cuts in the bone surface to cause bleeding. Once cartilage matures is has no blood flow to help it regenerate, hence the "bone cutting". This is all certainly over my head. I have been told this surgery is only suggested for fit athletes.
> 
> ...



The CH in CH Alpha stands for Collagen Hydrolysate, which I've done a little research on. It does seem to be effective for regenerating softened cartilage (which isn't really damaged, per se, more like the precursor to damage), as well as help with pain. But I'm always a bit skeptical of low sample sizes (which some of these studies have, particularly the ones on regeneration) and the general wisdom I've received on supplements is that they give you expensive urine (with some exceptions). I find it weird that this particular supplement doesn't have much attention on it if it works as well as the guy at the sports medicine store says. Or maybe that's a sign that it does work, since there must be about 50 supplements plastered all over the Internet as the magic bullet for weight loss  

Anyway, since supplements don't hurt and some do work, I did try a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement over the summer, but it didn't seem to have an effect. I think the PT will be the key to the tendonitis I have for sure, since it seems to be an issue of muscle imbalance and tight quads. I'm just not sure about this new issue, although the recommended PT is basically the same. The sports doctor mentioned that greater hamstring flexibility will help as well, but my hams are pretty flexible as it is. Of course I'll work on it, though. 

I'll definitely look into foods. I wonder if a nutritionist would be helpful with that. I can see one for free at school. Might be worth a visit!

PS - I'm 34. I feel like I'm too young for this nonsense, but I guess not,




JowGaWolf said:


> I can only give you my experience.  Long story short.  I used to think I had bad knees. It would get so bad that I couldn't go up and down the steps.  Of my classmates was a doctor and he was able to fix both of my knees.  He's an Alternative medicine doctor.  He said that the reason my knees were hurting was because the tendon was wrapped around in a bad, (something like that).  any way.  He fixed it. right their on the spot took him may 10 minutes.  The point I'm getting at is that sometimes Modern doctors don't have all of the answers.  When I here statements like.  "Doctor suspects softening of the articular cartilage ..."  To me that's an uncertain answer in which maybe an alternative medicine doctor may have some idea.  When I say alternative medicine doctor, I don't mean one of those crazy guys who don't believe in modern medicine.  I'm talking about the ones who do both modern medicine and alternative medicine.    Those doctors may know something that the modern doctors may not understand yet.
> 
> Either that or a test that can show what's really going on and if there is some physical damage.  Either way getting professional medical advice is the best way to go even if you have to shop around.
> 
> It might do well to get a second opinion and second perspective before



Thanks for your perspectives! I'll definitely try to get that MRI if nothing is resolved in a month, but it's really annoying that I have to go through several months of therapy and try supplements before my insurance company will consider letting me do an MRI. Man, I hate insurance companies sometimes. Quite a while ago when I had different insurance, they refused to cover a standard test for a condition the doctors suspected I had. They claimed it was excessive and unnecessary, which I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion, because it's literally the only way to test for it. At least it was only a $200 test!

Anyway, I think your experiences are quite similar to my tendonitis experience. My physical therapist helped it a lot through massage of my IT band and quads and some pretty simple exercises to equalize the strength between different muscles. My knee caps apparently pull slightly to one side because of it, which is causing the irritation to the tendon. My sports doctor didn't even notice anything was off with my kneecaps, even after an X-ray, but the therapist could feel it right away. When I get a flare up of pain, rolling the IT band and quads with either a foam roller or rolling pin really soothes it. We do have some alternative medicine on campus, too, although I'll stick to my current treatment plan until I get that MRI.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 17, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> but it's really annoying that I have to go through several months of therapy and try supplements before my insurance company will consider letting me do an MRI. Man, I hate insurance companies sometimes. Quite a while ago when I had different insurance, they refused to cover a standard test for a condition the doctors suspected I had. They claimed it was excessive and unnecessary, which I'm not sure how they came to that conclusion, because it's literally the only way to test for it. At least it was only a $200 test!


I'm with you on that.  



Orion Nebula said:


> My sports doctor didn't even notice anything was off with my kneecaps, even after an X-ray, but the therapist could feel it right away. When I get a flare up of pain, rolling the IT band and quads with either a foam roller or rolling pin really soothes it. We do have some alternative medicine on campus, too, although I'll stick to my current treatment plan until I get that MRI.


That's why it's always good to get that second look, maybe someone else can identify what's going on.The insurance company should just pony up the money.


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## jobo (Nov 18, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> The CH in CH Alpha stands for Collagen Hydrolysate, which I've done a little research on. It does seem to be effective for regenerating softened cartilage (which isn't really damaged, per se, more like the precursor to damage), as well as help with pain. But I'm always a bit skeptical of low sample sizes (which some of these studies have, particularly the ones on regeneration) and the general wisdom I've received on supplements is that they give you expensive urine (with some exceptions). I find it weird that this particular supplement doesn't have much attention on it if it works as well as the guy at the sports medicine store says. Or maybe that's a sign that it does work, since there must be about 50 supplements plastered all over the Internet as the magic bullet for weight loss
> 
> Anyway, since supplements don't hurt and some do work, I did try a Glucosamine/Chondroitin supplement over the summer, but it didn't seem to have an effect. I think the PT will be the key to the tendonitis I have for sure, since it seems to be an issue of muscle imbalance and tight quads. I'm just not sure about this new issue, although the recommended PT is basically the same. The sports doctor mentioned that greater hamstring flexibility will help as well, but my hams are pretty flexible as it is. Of course I'll work on it, though.
> 
> ...


hows the weight loss going ??

that would seem a good way of getting load of the knees. as to the supliment, it rather depends how much 60$ is to you, that's less than my monthly coffee budget, if you have some spare cash in your budget it may be worth a try, obviously if you cantt eat for the month then it's a different matter


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## Orion Nebula (Nov 18, 2019)

jobo said:


> hows the weight loss going ??
> 
> that would seem a good way of getting load of the knees. as to the supliment, it rather depends how much 60$ is to you, that's less than my monthly coffee budget, if you have some spare cash in your budget it may be worth a try, obviously if you cantt eat for the month then it's a different matter



It's coming along. I'm another 10 pounds down, so 50 pounds lost total. I still have a way to go, though. But you're right, when I get to a more normal weight, my knees (and many other parts of my body) will be thanking me.

The money for the supplement isn't impossible, although currently combined with the money I'm spending on PT ($15 per session after insurance), I'm pushing my discretionary budget towards its limit. Although thankfully we switched to one PT session per week and more home exercises.


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## JR 137 (Nov 19, 2019)

What you describe going on sounds like chondromalacia patella. MRI will rule out other things and if there’s an anatomical anomaly that needs surgical fixing. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for an MRI of this because it’s such a common problem and very, very few have something going on that an MRI will reveal. They want to make sure there’s a good reason to suspect it’s more than chondromalacia. Don’t hate me for saying that 

PT consists of basically what you said - correcting the muscular imbalance and soft tissue work like massage and release to treat the symptoms.

The cartilage behind the kneecap can repair itself. It’s not like other types of cartilage. Yes, it’s hyaline cartilage as is most other articular cartilage that doesn’t repair itself, but the patellar cartilage does. Don’t feel like this is a forever thing or a knee replacement thing.

Weight loss will definitely help, but it’s not the only thing and not is really the cause of it. It’s a patellar mistracking thing. I’ve had a few athletes get surgery for mistracking, and to be quite honest I think it was a waste of their time. That’s a very small sample size, like about 6 or so, so don’t base any decision on that. 

I have a cartilage tear in my shoulder and take Glucosamine with MSM religiously. When I don’t take it, my shoulder aches. The jury’s out on Glucosamine. Most studies, which are very few, focus on knees and hips. The problem with them is that those are weight bearing joints. Shoulders and kneecaps aren’t. MSM is known for its anti inflammatory properties, so there’s not much debate there. Whichever part is helping me is irrelevant; I just know my shoulder is better off 

What else can I say... oh yeah... try a patellar tendon/jumper’s knee strap. They’re a simple strap that goes right under your kneecap and holds it up a little bit, taking pressure off. Even more effective is using pre-wrap and making your own. Look up YouTube for jumper’s knee pre-wrap strap or similar. I’m sure there’s got to be some videos.


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## dvcochran (Nov 19, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> What you describe going on sounds like chondromalacia patella. MRI will rule out other things and if there’s an anatomical anomaly that needs surgical fixing. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for an MRI of this because it’s such a common problem and very, very few have something going on that an MRI will reveal. They want to make sure there’s a good reason to suspect it’s more than chondromalacia. Don’t hate me for saying that
> 
> PT consists of basically what you said - correcting the muscular imbalance and soft tissue work like massage and release to treat the symptoms.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the expert advise JR. I had never heard that any cartilage could repair itself. Like you, I just know my knees hurt less when I take Glucosamine. Probably the anti-inflammatory quality you mention.


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## Orion Nebula (Nov 20, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> What you describe going on sounds like chondromalacia patella. MRI will rule out other things and if there’s an anatomical anomaly that needs surgical fixing. Insurance companies don’t want to pay for an MRI of this because it’s such a common problem and very, very few have something going on that an MRI will reveal. They want to make sure there’s a good reason to suspect it’s more than chondromalacia. Don’t hate me for saying that
> 
> PT consists of basically what you said - correcting the muscular imbalance and soft tissue work like massage and release to treat the symptoms.
> 
> ...



It's super good to hear that this is something that's likely to resolve with continued PT and maybe supplements. I actually did try a new taping method last night with kinesiology tape. I previously used a method that mimics those patellar straps, and it worked pretty good when I was just suffering from patellar tendonitis. However, it hasn't been as effective with my recent issues. 

So I tried one that is made for patellofemoral pain syndrome and helps pull the knee cap into alignment I guess. It worked ok and definitely decreased the darn crunchy sounds. But it came unstuck part way through class, so my knees were pretty sore at the end of class. I guess I need to cut my strips a little longer and rub the tape more!


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 20, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> But it came unstuck part way through class, so my knees were pretty sore at the end of class.


Is this class as in college or cooking class.  If not, then. Heal First, Train Later.

That knee is going to have a difficult time doing any type of healing if you are busy moving around training.  if you have opportunity to give it some rest, then take it.


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## JR 137 (Nov 20, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> It's super good to hear that this is something that's likely to resolve with continued PT and maybe supplements. I actually did try a new taping method last night with kinesiology tape. I previously used a method that mimics those patellar straps, and it worked pretty good when I was just suffering from patellar tendonitis. However, it hasn't been as effective with my recent issues.
> 
> So I tried one that is made for patellofemoral pain syndrome and helps pull the knee cap into alignment I guess. It worked ok and definitely decreased the darn crunchy sounds. But it came unstuck part way through class, so my knees were pretty sore at the end of class. I guess I need to cut my strips a little longer and rub the tape more!



I’ve used the kinesio tape on athletes for patellar femoral syndrome too. Works very well. It’s a bit tricky to get it right, but even trickier to get it to stay on. You can try the spray skin glue (Tuff Skin by I think Cramer is what I used). Just a quick and a bit distant shot of it over the area. Definitely don’t saturate your knee like spray paint. It’s a pain in the a$$ if you’re not used to using it. If you use it, don’t rip the tape off like a band-aid; your skin will come off with it. I’ve seen it done by many a rookie. Roll the tape off, preferably in the shower. 
Just a thought.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 20, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> Calling all folks with knee knowledge!
> 
> I've been training for almost 10 months, and I've had knee issues on and off for the past 6 months. I finally went to the sports doc and started physical therapy in September, which helped immensely. However, I seem to have developed a whole new knee problem. At our last seminar, I had a sharp pain under my knee cap when I did a round kick on someone, and since then my knee hasn't been the same. I spent a week in Canada at a conference shortly after the karate seminar, and walking up stairs was pretty painful, even occasionally just walking hurt. One day I forgot to take my anti-inflammatory and I spent the whole day wiggling around because my knee would hurt if I left it in any one position for too long.
> 
> ...



I'm not a doctor but speaking as one with knee issues and now arthritic knees, get the MRI. Pain like you describe is what I had recently in my left knee and it required surgery to fix the tear in the cartilage. I have torn it before, but they were small tears and I just had to take it easy and they kind of fixed themselves. However this last one was bigger and surgery was required. Recovery time for full recovery is 6 to 8 months, but not doing anything means you still go the 6 to 8 months, in pain and at the end you still can't train. With surgery, if it turns out to be necessary, after the 6 to 8 months you can get back to it.  

Get the MRI and see what the MD has to say.


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## Randy Pio (Nov 20, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> Calling all folks with knee knowledge!
> 
> I've been training for almost 10 months, and I've had knee issues on and off for the past 6 months. I finally went to the sports doc and started physical therapy in September, which helped immensely. However, I seem to have developed a whole new knee problem. At our last seminar, I had a sharp pain under my knee cap when I did a round kick on someone, and since then my knee hasn't been the same. I spent a week in Canada at a conference shortly after the karate seminar, and walking up stairs was pretty painful, even occasionally just walking hurt. One day I forgot to take my anti-inflammatory and I spent the whole day wiggling around because my knee would hurt if I left it in any one position for too long.
> 
> ...



I often wonder why, in 2019 there aren't sythetic substitutes for these situations- nylon discs for spines, a gel type lubricant for hips/knees/rotator cuffs.


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## JR 137 (Nov 20, 2019)

Randy Pio said:


> I often wonder why, in 2019 there aren't sythetic substitutes for these situations- nylon discs for spines, a gel type lubricant for hips/knees/rotator cuffs.


Knee, shoulder and hip replacements work quite well. The artificial surfaces are Teflon. Like everything, they wear out because the body has no way of healing the artificial surfaces. 

The replacement parts aren’t the problem; the recovery from surgery is long and not fun. 

I’ve heard they’re working on 3D printed hip, knee and shoulder replacement parts. That’ll revolutionize the surgery because it’s allegedly minimally invasive. The current surgeries are quite traumatic. I’ve sat in on a few. Picture sawzalls, drills and brass hammers. Seriously. They have to wear face shields and nurses have to wipe them off from all the “sawdust” aka bone fragments flying around.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 20, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Knee, shoulder and hip replacements work quite well. The artificial surfaces are Teflon. Like everything, they wear out because the body has no way of healing the artificial surfaces.
> 
> The replacement parts aren’t the problem; the recovery from surgery is long and not fun.
> 
> I’ve heard they’re working on 3D printed hip, knee and shoulder replacement parts. That’ll revolutionize the surgery because it’s allegedly minimally invasive. The current surgeries are quite traumatic. I’ve sat in on a few. Picture sawzalls, drills and brass hammers. Seriously. They have to wear face shields and nurses have to wipe them off from all the “sawdust” aka bone fragments flying around.



There are reasons why the archetype orthopedist looks like a linebacker. Ortho surgery is... brutal...


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## JR 137 (Nov 21, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are reasons why the archetype orthopedist looks like a linebacker. Ortho surgery is... brutal...


A lot of them played sports before med school as well.

After sitting in on my first surgery, the ortho asked me what I thought. I jokingly told him I lost some respect for ortho surgeons because it reminded me more of what my father does (mechanic) than what I thought surgeons do. He laughed and said “I’m pretty much a carpenter, not a mechanic.” That was pretty accurate.


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## dvcochran (Nov 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> A lot of them played sports before med school as well.
> 
> After sitting in on my first surgery, the ortho asked me what I thought. I jokingly told him I lost some respect for ortho surgeons because it reminded me more of what my father does (mechanic) than what I thought surgeons do. He laughed and said “I’m pretty much a carpenter, not a mechanic.” That was pretty accurate.


I am scheduled for knee replacements in soon. The recent comments have me wondering.


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## Orion Nebula (Nov 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve used the kinesio tape on athletes for patellar femoral syndrome too. Works very well. It’s a bit tricky to get it right, but even trickier to get it to stay on. You can try the spray skin glue (Tuff Skin by I think Cramer is what I used). Just a quick and a bit distant shot of it over the area. Definitely don’t saturate your knee like spray paint. It’s a pain in the a$$ if you’re not used to using it. If you use it, don’t rip the tape off like a band-aid; your skin will come off with it. I’ve seen it done by many a rookie. Roll the tape off, preferably in the shower.
> Just a thought.



Ah, so that's what the spray was in a few videos. Honestly, taking just the tape off by itself is exceptionally painful if I rip it off. I found a really sticky brand on Amazon that will stay for a few days if I get it on right. I can only imagine it with the spray adhesive. 

I tried taping again last night, but used a longer piece. It definitely worked a lot better, and my knees were very happy with me. It also occured to me that I've been slacking off on my quad and IT band rolling. I spent a good hour on Tuesday with a rolling pin working out all the tight spots... it continues to amaze me how massaging those areas can relieve a lot of pain and stiffness in my knees.



dvcochran said:


> I am scheduled for knee replacements in soon. The recent comments have me wondering.



My mom had both her knees replaced several years ago and recently her hip as well. The incisions for the knees were about what I would expect, but I was really surprised by the how small the incision for the hip was. It can't be much more than 3 inches, and they managed to use that tiny hole to cut off the end of the femur, hammer in a new ball, and line the socket.


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## JR 137 (Nov 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am scheduled for knee replacements in soon. The recent comments have me wondering.


You won’t see any of that stuff. You’ll be out


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Knee, shoulder and hip replacements work quite well. The artificial surfaces are Teflon. Like everything, they wear out because the body has no way of healing the artificial surfaces.


Hopefully stem cell research will fix this.  If things in the medical field advance like the computer field then many of us will see it in our life time as the norm.  Repairing with something that can repair itself and maintain itself is definitely a better option than removing it and placing artificial parts.
Novel stem cell therapy for repair of knee cartilage - Mayo Clinic

The same is being done with hip replacement. While it's still new, it seems like a option with potential especially as stem cell research is improving.
Stem Cells Get Hip


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## dvcochran (Nov 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> You won’t see any of that stuff. You’ll be out


I suppose not but I am scared as hell that I will feel it.
Seriously though, I am more concerned with the rehab than the actual surgery.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I suppose not but I am scared as hell that I will feel it.
> Seriously though, I am more concerned with the rehab than the actual surgery.



Coworker going through that right now. Not going to sugar coat it, lots of swelling and pain afterwards, but he had medication to deal with the pain. He thought he'd be back to work in a week, I doubted that, I had arthroscopic surgery and came back in a week and I now know I should have taken two. He is looking at 3 weeks, at least, until the Doc says he can return, and that all depends on the Physical Therapist reports. However he is rather happy he had it done, no more constant knee pain, like he had prior to surgery.

A good friend of mine, who was a pro-soccer player, had both knees done a few years back and he is absolutely thrilled he did it. He can walk normal, which he could not do before. He is able to sleep, which he could not do before due to knee pain.

And neither of them felt the surgery at all.

When I had the arthroscopic surgery, when I came to in the recovery room, I asked them when were they going to start. I was told; "Its already done". So I felt absolutely nothing.


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## Orion Nebula (Jan 8, 2020)

Following up on this!

I've had a really lousy time since around US Thanksgiving (end of November). My knee swelled up so much that I could barely bend it or even fully extend it. Plus there was some pain putting weight on it (and occasionally lots of pain), making walking difficult. I even couldn't do a lot of my physical therapy exercises. So that definitely took me out of the dojo, and I actually haven't been doing a whole lot since then, and my knee has significantly improved, although it's certainly not perfect. We also got all of the paperwork in order for the MRI and the insurance company approved it.

I did the MRI this past weekend and we went over the images today. No meniscus tear or injured ligaments, not that we were expecting any. As @JR 137 suggested, there is some degraded cartilage on the underside of the kneecap. There was also some mild bursitis, which makes sense to me given that I had a bout of bursitis back in June. However, the big surprise was that I have arthritis in my knee. My x-rays showed the beginnings of bone spurs, but not really anything that should be affecting me yet. However, the MRI showed some significant degradation on the inner half of the knee. It's not worn down so that there's bone on bone contact, but it's apparently enough to cause inflammation and pain. 

The doc was actually pretty thrilled with the results since there's no surgery required, but I almost feel like an injury would have been preferable since you can fix that. Arthritis is kind of forever. The next step recommended is an unloader brace to take off pressure from the inner knee when I'm active. Unfortunately, this is another game with the insurance company. The guy who is taking care of running the insurance authorization and doing the actual measurements and ordering warned me that my insurance company doesn't have a good record for this, and another grad student actually had a lot of trouble getting the insurance company to pay for their brace. But we'll see how it goes.

I'm continuing the CH alpha supplement. Not sure if it's helping or not. My knee certainly feels better than it did two months ago, but I also spent the past month doing zero karate and nothing that would irritate my knee. My sister recommended Ostarplex, as it significantly helped her arthritis. It's a bit cheaper than CH alpha, but I can't find a ton of information on it. She also has a very different type of arthritis (psoriatic). I'm hesitant to try both at the same time (how do you figure out which one works?), plus that's even more money spent each month. Guess I'll probably stick with the CH alpha for now since it's recommended by my doc. Although my mom decided to try the Ostarplex, too, so if she has good results, then maybe that's a good sign that it would be helpful for me. Speaking of Mom, this arthritis is a gift from her. Her knees deteriorated in the same way. Guess my hips are next, too.

The doc also suggested that I give up karate. Specifically, he said that stomping around during karate will irritate my knee, even with the brace on. I suppose he doesn't know a lot about karate - I wouldn't call it a stomping art. Although I am guilty of stomping around quite often, which my instructor continuously tells me not to do (and since having knee problems, has pointed out that it's going to cause more knee issues). It has been getting better over time. Anyone have any thoughts on that? There are a bunch of old guys in our organization who still train with arthritis and various joint replacements, but they've also been doing this for decades and probably aren't inclined to switch to something gentler on the joints. Should I really think about calling it quits and find an art that's a bit lower impact on the knees? There's not an incredible amount of different martial arts in my immediate area. Mostly Kenpo, Taekwondo, and BJJ. I doubt the Kenpo would be dramatically different in terms of impact level, Taekwondo is a no, but perhaps the BJJ would be kinder. There's also a Pukulan school, but I don't know much about that art. There's a Danzan Ryu place about 35 minutes away, but I'm not sure I really want to go that far, especially since traffic can easily increase that to 45 minutes or longer.


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