# police



## Athena (Mar 18, 2004)

My mom was driving on the highway a few nights ago and got pulled over for speeding, which got me thinking about a few safely issues. First of all, it was dark outside and she was pulled over away from any towns.  The policeman shown a flashlight in her window over her shoulder, and so she couldn't even see his face when he was talking to her. Nothing happened obviously; it was business as usual and she got a ticket, but it seems like there were so many opportunities for something to go wrong. How do you protect yourself in a situation like that?


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## Tony (Mar 18, 2004)

Although the Police are supposed to be beyond reproach there are a minority who would take advantage of their power.  Fair enough if the Policeman was doing his job but if he had an ulterior motive for stopping a woman on her own then its a serious question on how you protect yourself from a corrupt Police officer. She could have refused to get out of her car and stay in the car with the doors locked, however that could have been seen as not cooperting, which in turn could lead to all sorts of trouble.
I don't know much about the the laws in America or the procedure Police use to stop motorists but over here when people are stopped on the Motorway there are usually two Police officers, and if someone has been speeding they officers take them to their car and show them how much they were speeding by on the computer, and lecture them.
You hear of so many cases of Police officers being beaten up by angry motorists, criminals and the like but thats not to say that they themselves are above the law. I think your best defence would be to make yourself familiar with the law, cooperate with the officer but if he crosses the line then you should ask to speak to his superior!


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## loki09789 (Mar 18, 2004)

If you get pulled over, you are completely within your rights to crack your window and tell the officer that you would feel more comfortable if the paper work is done at a station or at least at the nearest public/populated parking lot.  you can also ask for ID to verify the officer's authenticity.  If it is an unmarked car with an officer in a casual or partial uniform, they will probably not give you a load of crap.  If it is an officer in full uniform, in a fully marked car, they might get upset, but you can request another officer on the scene to witness.  It won't go over well, or make your day easier, but if you are that concerned that the officer isn't legit or has abusive intentions, go for it.

If it is a case of a police officer abusing his power and attempting to assault/rape the civilian, treat him the same as you would if it were an armed Bad guy in the same situation.  Get license numbers, names, badge numbers, discriptions.... for reporting purposes.


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## Black Bear (Mar 18, 2004)

Mr. Prime Minister has really been on The Correct lately. I suspect that he has The Correct tied and gagged in the back of a windowless van. 

A genuine police officer who is himself an evil, violent individual is the self-defenser's worst nightmare. But there are steps that can be taken to stay safe. There always are.


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## OULobo (Mar 18, 2004)

We had a situation a little like this here in OH. A woman from MI had the lifestyle where she and her husband didn't agree with local laws and didn't trust any LEOs, so she refused to stop until they were off the freeway and in a truckstop. The officer was suspicious, but just followed her to the truck stop. There wasn't any problem with her choosing to go to the exit. The rest of the story is what made it newsworthy (she was pulled over for breatfeeding in the car while driving and didn't have a driver's licence).


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## loki09789 (Mar 18, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> Mr. Prime Minister has really been on The Correct lately. I suspect that he has The Correct tied and gagged in the back of a windowless van.
> 
> A genuine police officer who is himself an evil, violent individual is the self-defenser's worst nightmare. But there are steps that can be taken to stay safe. There always are.



It's my ball and I WON'T give it back!  The Correct's left eye will be mailed to you to prove that I am not faking.... but won't that make the Correct INCorrect because it will suffer a perception problem


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## Black Bear (Mar 18, 2004)

OULobo, I find it interesting when there are people who don't "buy into the social contract". Often rural folks, they figure that they need not comply to laws they don't agree with, and make no apology for this. Kinda like, hey I was born here, I'm going to live here, I leave everyone else alone, you better stay out of my face, cold dead fingers, etc... There are quite a few folks like that in the USA, aren't there? 

On some level I'm kind of sympathetic to that kind of ideology. But then, they're driving on public roads along with the rest of people... some kind of understanding has got to be worked out...


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## OULobo (Mar 18, 2004)

Black Bear said:
			
		

> OULobo, I find it interesting when there are people who don't "buy into the social contract". Often rural folks, they figure that they need not comply to laws they don't agree with, and make no apology for this. Kinda like, hey I was born here, I'm going to live here, I leave everyone else alone, you better stay out of my face, cold dead fingers, etc... There are quite a few folks like that in the USA, aren't there?
> 
> On some level I'm kind of sympathetic to that kind of ideology. But then, they're driving on public roads along with the rest of people... some kind of understanding has got to be worked out...



Apparently, we have an unusually large pop. of them here in OH and in MI, and consequently in CO and UT. Most of them get along just fine with everyone because the are in the boonies or in communities that accept their beliefs in the interests of community peace, but when there are clashes with the rest of society and authority in particular things get a little sticky. From what I know of them, they don't think the constitution allows the Fed. Gov. issue them rules, laws or orders. 

I'm of the same mindset as you, in that part of me sympathises with them, but they resist in the wrong ways. I always say "Don't Poke the Bear". It's a slogan of mine. Basically, if you see a bear in the woods, don't be stupid and run up and start poking him. All you are going to get is hurt. Same thing goes at the bar. I know people who used to run up to a group of 10 frat guys and yell "Your frat is a bunch of P***ies." and then wonder why they got pounded. Same idea, if you flick a booger at the government, you better do it in an acceptable way or when no one's around, otherwise don't cry when the ATF torches your shack. Reality vs. Idealism.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 18, 2004)

At the risk of unpopularly siding with Law Enforcement...

I don't know if it's at a national level, or just here on the west coast of SoCal where all the fruits, nuts and flakes settle, but tha stats are that...
1. An officers #1 likely place of being harmed *was* on a domestic dispute call.
2. An officers *new* #1 most-likely place to get shot is on a traffic stop.  Doesn't even have to be a car full of gang-bangers...just a car.

Can you blame them for taking every opportunity to keep the driver & passengers at a strategic disadvantage?  If I were a cop with these stats, I'd aim a Q-beam in their eyes and have them step out of the car...and then if they wanted to do it at the station, fine...less likely to get shot.

Namaste!

Dr. Dave


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 18, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> At the risk of unpopularly siding with Law Enforcement...
> 
> I don't know if it's at a national level, or just here on the west coast of SoCal where all the fruits, nuts and flakes settle, but tha stats are that...
> 1. An officers #1 likely place of being harmed *was* on a domestic dispute call.
> ...


Dave,

I was driving a car for work, had lots of computer stuff in it. Wierd lights flashing and glowing at night. Not too bad, but visible to other vehicles. I was pulled over for speeding. Transitions from a 65 MPH to 55 MPH and I was engine braking and running a test. I crossed the sign at 60 mph. I was obviously speeding. They hit the lights behind me and pulled me over. I did not know they were there, as it was an expressway interchange. Both approached the vehicle with weapons drawn, one on each side. I had interior lights on and hands on the wheel. The lead officer at my window smiled and asked me my paperwork after he put away is firearm. The other was not convinced and staid back to cover. They thought it was funny, for they would not have pulled me over if not for all the funny lights and glows. I even had to show them the trunk with compuer equipment. Then they apologized for writing me a speeding ticket. Michigan State Police policy is to issue a ticket at all stops, usually. Well the ticket was for 60 MP in a 55 MPH in a previous zoned 70 MPH. This meant a $70 fine and no points. An Equipment inop would have been $80 or $120 depending upon malfunction. I paid the ticket, and the clerk asked where was my case number. I replied I just wanted to pay the ticket. It was soo much cheaper that way.  Oh and I was noy upset by the way they approached the vehicle.


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## Black Bear (Mar 18, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I don't know if it's at a national level, or just here on the west coast of SoCal where all the fruits, nuts and flakes settle


It's like a big bowl of muesli. Mmm, I haven't had that in awhile. I wish I were eating muesli right now. Mental note: buy muesli. 

I was also told that vehicle stops are the most dangerous thing that cops do, so when I've been stopped I was always very nice about it.


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## RCastillo (Mar 18, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I was driving a car for work, had lots of computer stuff in it. Wierd lights flashing and glowing at night. Not too bad, but visible to other vehicles. I was pulled over for speeding. Transitions from a 65 MPH to 55 MPH and I was engine braking and running a test. I crossed the sign at 60 mph. I was obviously speeding. They hit the lights behind me and pulled me over. I did not know they were there, as it was an expressway interchange. Both approached the vehicle with weapons drawn, one on each side. I had interior lights on and hands on the wheel. The lead officer at my window smiled and asked me my paperwork after he put away is firearm. The other was not convinced and staid back to cover. They thought it was funny, for they would not have pulled me over if not for all the funny lights and glows. I even had to show them the trunk with compuer equipment. Then they apologized for writing me a speeding ticket. Michigan State Police policy is to issue a ticket at all stops, usually. Well the ticket was for 60 MP in a 55 MPH in a previous zoned 70 MPH. This meant a $70 fine and no points. An Equipment inop would have been $80 or $120 depending upon malfunction. I paid the ticket, and the clerk asked where was my case number. I replied I just wanted to pay the ticket. It was soo much cheaper that way.  Oh and I was noy upset by the way they approached the vehicle.




You shoulda faked em out with da math! :uhyeah:


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## Tgace (Mar 18, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If you get pulled over, you are completely within your rights to crack your window and tell the officer that you would feel more comfortable if the paper work is done at a station or at least at the nearest public/populated parking lot.  you can also ask for ID to verify the officer's authenticity.  If it is an unmarked car with an officer in a casual or partial uniform, they will probably not give you a load of crap.  If it is an officer in full uniform, in a fully marked car, they might get upset, but you can request another officer on the scene to witness.  It won't go over well, or make your day easier, but if you are that concerned that the officer isn't legit or has abusive intentions, go for it.
> 
> If it is a case of a police officer abusing his power and attempting to assault/rape the civilian, treat him the same as you would if it were an armed Bad guy in the same situation.  Get license numbers, names, badge numbers, discriptions.... for reporting purposes.



Ya beat me to it bud. :CTF:


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## loki09789 (Mar 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Ya beat me to it bud. :CTF:



Shorter arms and legs, less distance to travel at my optimal distance.... I usually do


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## Tgace (Mar 18, 2004)

Isnt there something about short limbs and.......ahhh forget it.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Mar 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Isnt there something about short limbs and.......ahhh forget it.


Touche'


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## Tgace (Mar 18, 2004)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Michigan State Police policy is to issue a ticket at all stops,



Hmmm...that may be true, but i would think that its more of a CYA thing amongst the troopers rather than a "policy". In my dept. I dont "have" to issue a ticket for anything, but if the stop results in an arrest and/or the driver acts like he may file a complaint (accidents are a different story), I will issue a summons to explain the reason for the initial traffic stop. 

Other than that I may tell a little white lie like "my dept. wants me to write stop sign infractions as a result of citizen complaints". To forestall any arguement or bad attitude from the driver.

 %-} 
road pirate


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## Rich Parsons (Mar 18, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Hmmm...that may be true, but i would think that its more of a CYA thing amongst the troopers rather than a "policy". In my dept. I dont "have" to issue a ticket for anything, but if the stop results in an arrest and/or the driver acts like he may file a complaint (accidents are a different story), I will issue a summons to explain the reason for the initial traffic stop.
> 
> Other than that I may tell a little white lie like "my dept. wants me to write stop sign infractions as a result of citizen complaints". To forestall any arguement or bad attitude from the driver.
> 
> ...


They do it all accidents, this lists someone at least more than 50% at fault or it shows the judge which way the officer was thinking or leaning as he was the first response unit.

Maybe policy is not true as in written, yet, almost everytime I ahve talked to them, they have said the same thing. Even when I was not the one getting the ticket .


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## jfarnsworth (Mar 18, 2004)

When I started reading the first post it was almost exactly to the "T" word for word from another female that I know. Unfortunately for her she didn't have the same out come. After the perp. beat up a police officer and took his flashlight and gun he took off in the car. Apparnetly he had seen her "possibly" through the window of her car and immediatley turned the car around. He managed to get the lights turned on and she pulled over. Upon coming to the car he put the flashlight in her face then ordered her out of the car. She thought he may have used that instance to see if there were any other passengers. At this point she had slightly argued with him and how he pulled her over then she heard the gun chamber and felt it on the side of her head. He beat her in the face with the gun then kidnapped her. He also used her as a hostage for 3 days. Luckily enough for her she manged to play act into his game and seduce him. That bought her enough time to get away from him. My point to all women is to always be cautious. Things just may not always appear as they should.


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## Mark L (Mar 19, 2004)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I'd aim a Q-beam in their eyes and have them step out of the car...
> 
> Dr. Dave



I've had this done to me before, the spot light from the cruiser reflecting off of a large side view mirror and the maglight right into my face.  I couldn't see the LEO approaching or standing at my door.  I was asked to roll down my window and give my license and registration.  I cracked the window and said, quite politely, I'm not going to do anything until you get those lights out of my eyes so I can see who you are.  He did, it didn't become an issue.  I have the right to protect myself, too.


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## Tgace (Mar 19, 2004)

Mark L said:
			
		

> I've had this done to me before, the spot light from the cruiser reflecting off of a large side view mirror and the maglight right into my face.  I couldn't see the LEO approaching or standing at my door.  I was asked to roll down my window and give my license and registration.  I cracked the window and said, quite politely, I'm not going to do anything until you get those lights out of my eyes so I can see who you are.  He did, it didn't become an issue.  I have the right to protect myself, too.



You experienced what is called the "wall of light". Good officer safety technique, hard to shoot what you cant see.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 10, 2004)

Athena said:
			
		

> My mom was driving on the highway a few nights ago and got pulled over for speeding, which got me thinking about a few safely issues. First of all, it was dark outside and she was pulled over away from any towns. The policeman shown a flashlight in her window over her shoulder, and so she couldn't even see his face when he was talking to her. Nothing happened obviously; it was business as usual and she got a ticket, but it seems like there were so many opportunities for something to go wrong. How do you protect yourself in a situation like that?


This is a common situation.  

A guy I graduated from college with joined the Massachusetts State Police and was dishonorably discharged two months later based on a sexual harassment charge from a female driver he pulled over.

A guy I went to high school with in Boston spent several years on the Houston Texas police force and bragged about how he pulled women drivers over to extort a date from them.  He's no longer a cop anymore.

The best and the brightest don't become cops!


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## Ronin Moose (Jul 10, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> This is a common situation.
> 
> The best and the brightest don't become cops!


 
*Kevin:*  That's a pretty broad brush you are painting a lot of fine people with in your statement.  Perhaps I am not the best, nor the brightest, but I've managed to serve the last 30 years in law enforcement protecting you, your family and your right to insult me in the process.  Indeed, that IS your right, but it's an uneeded abuse in this forum, where so many of your fellow martial artists are involved in law enforcement and security work.  Do you think that the person you may have respected as a martial artist now does not deserve that same respect, once you learned of their profession? 

There are plent of bad seeds in this job, but every occupation has its 10% of idiots.  You don't need to appologize to me, but you do need to consider what you said, and how it stabs at the heart of some pretty good folks.

Just my opinion.  Peace to you and yours............

-Garry Grotewold


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## 8253 (Jul 11, 2004)

loki09789 said:
			
		

> If you get pulled over, you are completely within your rights to crack your window and tell the officer that you would feel more comfortable if the paper work is done at a station or at least at the nearest public/populated parking lot.  you can also ask for ID to verify the officer's authenticity.  If it is an unmarked car with an officer in a casual or partial uniform, they will probably not give you a load of crap.  If it is an officer in full uniform, in a fully marked car, they might get upset, but you can request another officer on the scene to witness.  It won't go over well, or make your day easier, but if you are that concerned that the officer isn't legit or has abusive intentions, go for it.
> 
> If it is a case of a police officer abusing his power and attempting to assault/rape the civilian, treat him the same as you would if it were an armed Bad guy in the same situation.  Get license numbers, names, badge numbers, discriptions.... for reporting purposes.




Yea, what he said.  On another note it is in the ORC that in order for a patrol officer to legally make a traffic stop they must be in a marked car and in uniform.  Unless it is something like a severly drunk driver or someone in the commision of some type of criminal action outside of just a traffic violation.
As far as shining your lights into the vehicle to make it difficult for the person to see, that is an officer safety issue that gives the officer a better tactical advantage if the subject wants to cause the officer some type of harm.  I would say that over 99% of people wouldnt want to cause anyone harm, but i wouldnt be willing to risk running into the less than 1% that would try to cause you harm without using everything in my power to protect myself.  If that includes them not being able to see you when you approach the vehicle.  Sorry, but im still going home at the end of the night.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 11, 2004)

From my Training and Experience the following advice I would give ya.

In the event of an unmarked car and someone in plain clothes. You can ask for a uniformed Officer and a marked car to be present. The smart officer will already have asked for back-up anyway if he is in an unmarked unit and out of uniform either by radio or cell phone. 

In the event of a traffic stop you may ask for a supervisor to be present. Sgt or a LT that is normally on Patrol and available for just this sort of problem. I was a SGT and usually was available for assistance.

Traffic Stops are the Most Dangerous encounter for an officer due to the fact many Felony arrest have been made during a rotinue traffic stop The LE Person does not know who you are or what you may or may not have done for his safety and yours he may approach the vechile in a cautious manner. Not all stops are for a Ticket it could be a friendly gesture to remind you that your brake light is out of order. 

Mark E. Weiser


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 11, 2004)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> *Kevin:* That's a pretty broad brush you are painting a lot of fine people with in your statement. Perhaps I am not the best, nor the brightest, but I've managed to serve the last 30 years in law enforcement protecting you, your family and your right to insult me in the process. Indeed, that IS your right, but it's an uneeded abuse in this forum, where so many of your fellow martial artists are involved in law enforcement and security work. Do you think that the person you may have respected as a martial artist now does not deserve that same respect, once you learned of their profession?
> 
> There are plent of bad seeds in this job, but every occupation has its 10% of idiots. You don't need to appologize to me, but you do need to consider what you said, and how it stabs at the heart of some pretty good folks.
> 
> ...


So how many cops have you arrested in your 30 years on the force?


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## Tgace (Jul 11, 2004)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> *Kevin:* That's a pretty broad brush you are painting a lot of fine people with in your statement. Perhaps I am not the best, nor the brightest, but I've managed to serve the last 30 years in law enforcement protecting you, your family and your right to insult me in the process. Indeed, that IS your right, but it's an uneeded abuse in this forum, where so many of your fellow martial artists are involved in law enforcement and security work. Do you think that the person you may have respected as a martial artist now does not deserve that same respect, once you learned of their profession?
> 
> There are plent of bad seeds in this job, but every occupation has its 10% of idiots. You don't need to appologize to me, but you do need to consider what you said, and how it stabs at the heart of some pretty good folks.
> 
> ...


Dont waste your breath brother........

Stay safe


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## shesulsa (Jul 11, 2004)

I know a woman who works for a local police department and have a state trooper in my class.  The woman ( a black belt ) makes a point of telling everyone at women's self-defense seminars that if you are in a remote location, or are driving at night or out of town, are pulled over and you feel uncomfortable, you can call 911 and ask for local verification that the person pulling you over is indeed an officer of the law BEFORE you shut off your engine, open your window or offer papers.

 Opinions, please?


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## Ronin Moose (Jul 11, 2004)

*To Tgace:*   You're right; I was all fired up with an immediate response, then I read your reply and realized that some are just not worth the effort.  Wish I had taken that advice................

*To Kevin Walker:*  Well, Kevin. since I never worked internal affairs that score would be zero.  However, I have a lot of respect for the agents who do work I.A., as long as they are fair in the manner of their investigation.  You see, the great majority of us have nothing to fear because we signed on to serve the citizens and help people.  Like I said, every job has it's rotten apples.  I notice you didn't ask me if I had ever saved a life, stopped a rape in progress or tracked down a fugitve who had killed his entire family, kids included.  The answer to those would be YES, but that's just part of the job - something that you could not understand.  Believe me, I think everyone should exercise their right to stay safe, but that includes officers as well as the non-officers of the world.  Your not-so-subtle hostility towards law enforcement is something that may pass when you grow up, or perhaps after you need one of us "not so bright" types in an emergency.  Or, you could just handle it yourself since you're so damn smart.

I am disgusted with myself for even responding to this dribble, but rest assured I won't do it again.  In the meantime I'll just keep trying to be as bright and honorable as those who criticize me.


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## Flatlander (Jul 11, 2004)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> I notice you didn't ask me if I had ever saved a life, stopped a rape in progress or tracked down a fugitve who had killed his entire family, kids included.


Of course not.  

To anyone reading this thread: 

Do not judge a man until you've walked a mile in his shoes.  Unless those shoes are just too damn big to fill.  In that case, take a look in the mirror, and see if you can find the man who's lying to himself about who he is.  

Who's protecting your community when you sleep?  You?  When was the last time you swore an oath, before witnesses, to put the safety of your community before your own?  

Remember that the best way to stay safe is to avoid danger?  What do you do for a living?  

Ever lay in bed, as a kid, and wonder if Dad would get shot tonight?  Ever be Dad and have to answer those questions coming from your child?  From yourself?


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## midnightninja (Jul 12, 2004)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> I know a woman who works for a local police department and have a state trooper in my class. The woman ( a black belt ) makes a point of telling everyone at women's self-defense seminars that if you are in a remote location, or are driving at night or out of town, are pulled over and you feel uncomfortable, you can call 911 and ask for local verification that the person pulling you over is indeed an officer of the law BEFORE you shut off your engine, open your window or offer papers.
> 
> Opinions, please?


 that's good. Police are human too, so there's always a percentage whose motives aren't totally pure. Media has a tendancy to take their job and skew it in such a way that cops are to be hated... not just disliked, but hated.... even though their main task is to preserve the laws given to them. Granted, not all do that... some use and abuse people  and in that I'm very upset that they would choose to go that route, but it's good that citizens double check just to stay safe.

 God Bless,
 .:Midnightninja:.


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## Kevin Walker (Jul 12, 2004)

Ronin Moose said:
			
		

> *To Tgace:* You're right; I was all fired up with an immediate response, then I read your reply and realized that some are just not worth the effort. Wish I had taken that advice................
> 
> *To Kevin Walker:* Well, Kevin. since I never worked internal affairs that score would be zero. However, I have a lot of respect for the agents who do work I.A., as long as they are fair in the manner of their investigation. You see, the great majority of us have nothing to fear because we signed on to serve the citizens and help people. Like I said, every job has it's rotten apples. I notice you didn't ask me if I had ever saved a life, stopped a rape in progress or tracked down a fugitve who had killed his entire family, kids included. The answer to those would be YES, but that's just part of the job - something that you could not understand. Believe me, I think everyone should exercise their right to stay safe, but that includes officers as well as the non-officers of the world. Your not-so-subtle hostility towards law enforcement is something that may pass when you grow up, or perhaps after you need one of us "not so bright" types in an emergency. Or, you could just handle it yourself since you're so damn smart.
> 
> I am disgusted with myself for even responding to this dribble, but rest assured I won't do it again. In the meantime I'll just keep trying to be as bright and honorable as those who criticize me.


Hi,

I didn't ask you if you ever saved a life, delivered a baby, helped an old lady across the street, etc. etc., simply because you don't have to be a cop to perform those acts of common courtesy.

Exactly what is it that a cop does for society that any other civilian cannot do? What necessary function does a police department serve that a constabulary or a night watch could not equally perform?

The United States has the largest crime rate in the world alongside with the largest police force in the world; how can the two possibly coexist if the police were a deterent to crime? Not only are the police NOT a deterent to crime, they sometimes contribute to it - so, ironically, if you get rid of the police, you will reduce the crime rate.

When police brutality is so frequently documented, videotaped, and shown on national T.V. (and eyewitnessed by pedestrians like myself), with fellow cops standing by watching a cop break the law and not intervening to arrest that particular cop - something is definately wrong. If you pretend the police don't break the law, then you're a liar and a police apologist!

Please read this: 
Boston Herald Thursday July 8, 2004
"COST OF POLICING POLICE"
"So this is the ugly truth: It cost [sic] the good taxpayers of this city $107,000 to pay for the police to police the police.
Then the Boston Police Patrolmen's Association threw up its illegal picket around the FleetCenter, the city was obligated to protect those trying to enter the building and to assure access - however limited that turned out to be until a federal judge ordered the picketing disbanded after four days. According to records released by the city at the request of the Herald, that picket line overtime ranged from more than 400 hours on June 8 (at a cost of $14, 738.51) to some 1,200 hours on June 11 (the last day of picketing) at a cost of $44,860.86.
What a hideous waste of resources - a waste o fmoney and a waste of talent and manpower that would be better used to make this community safer, and not just safer from off-duty police."

This is the general consensus of all Boston registered voters: The police are a useless and vile drain on taxpayers resources and the simplest solution to police pollution is simply to get rid of them. 

If in your 30 years as a cop and you have never arrested another cop committing a crime, then you're useless as an American and a disgrace to the martial arts!


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## loki09789 (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> Hi,
> 
> acts of common courtesy.
> 
> ...


Wow!  That was a little out of the "friendly discussion realm"  might need to be reported to the Admins.


Acts of "Courtesy"?  I would call them heroic and selfless.  IF they were common then why don't we see more of them?  Why do we constantly hear about the heroism of a few on the plane that crashed in the field instead of the intended target during 9/11.

Let's keep things in perspective please.  The US also has one of the proportionately largest populations in the world AND one of highest standards of living.  Why would that equate to the highest crime statistics?  Well, consider that the population size means more chances of crime to occur.  Also, the US system of reporting, recording and study - not to mention social expectation/governmental enforcement - is better than a third world country just trying to survive.  I am sure that other countries with less established, stable or effective governments have far more crime that goes unreported.  Consider too that what we consider a crime might not be one in other countries.  I study FMA's and as rich and noble as parts of the culture are, there are some things that are pretty deplorable too.  That is true of our country as well.

"Documented on national tv?"  I would hesitate to consider the news/media as 'documentors' of any fair/balanced presentation.  They have a few things working against them in that area:  Private sector industry, motivated partially by profit, working in the short/immediate time frame and not the long run.  Contraversy makes for great circulation, especially when 'taxpayers' money is involved.  Bad stuff to have happen? Absolutely.  Proof of institutional corruption?  Not necessarily.  Besides, Boston is a SEPARATE place than any other town, village, city.... police department.  Each one is individual and should be looked at that way before you say widespread.

I don't think anyone has claimed that the police are not human/flawed as individuals on a case by case basis, but to throw out the baby with the bath water is what a rational person would consider prejudicial/bigotted.


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## LadyDragon (Jul 12, 2004)

I don't know if this has been mentioned already, but I live in a pretty big city.  And unfortunately people do impersonate police officers here.  Around here a lot of people have cell phones, so what you can do is from your phone call 911, when the operator picks up you can say that you have an officer behind you trying to pull you over.  Then the operator radio's to make sure that every thing is on the up an up and then tells you whether or not its safe to pull over.

I've heard of several different stories like this where women in particular have been followed by an unmarked police car only to find out that it wasn't a police officer at all.  So better in my opinion to be safe than sorry.


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## Zepp (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin, your dislike of police seems to be a personal issue.  Is there a personal experience with law enforcement that you'd care to relate to us?


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## Flatlander (Jul 12, 2004)

Kevin Walker said:
			
		

> If in your 30 years as a cop and you have never arrested another cop committing a crime, then you're useless as an American and a disgrace to the martial arts!


I'd like to say that this is probably the most offensive thing that I have ever seen posted on this board.

I have been through more threads, current and historical, than I can count.

This is by far the most horrendous thisng that I have read to date.

I don't know what kind of life you live, sir, but this is not the first time you have barked out such hateful bile in reference to police, and the work that they do.  Until you have the stones to commit *YOUR LIFE* to protecting your neighbours and citizens in a fair and just way, and swear an *oath* to follow a code of conduct, might I reccommend you revisit your biggoted view and hasty generalizations?

Your opinion is quite obviously lacking in logic, research, tact, honesty, intergity, or value.

Your pie-eyed fantasy of constabularies or whatever holds zero potential for being better than the current system in any way, shape, or form.

If you have such an issue that you feel the need to get onto a *PRIVATE* forum and spread your sickness, why not try to change the system from the inside?  Get out of your armchair and get to work.

Whatever it is you choose to do, now, is up to you.  *But*, do not insult my friends or family again. 

Hope that was clear enough.

Dan


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## KenpoTess (Jul 12, 2004)

* MOD NOTE

THREAD HAS DEGENERATED AND THEREFORE LOCKED- PENDING ADMIN REVIEW

~Tess
-MT S. MOD-
*


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