# New and improved description



## disciple (Apr 3, 2002)

I am rather disagree about the tai chi description on the first page, cause its only explains about the relaxation and body exercise without inserting tai chi's combat value in it.



> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *LOL
> I stole most of my summaries from descriptions I found.  Maybe you guys who know TaiChi can write us a better one?
> ...




salute

:asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 20, 2002)

We need some movement on this!

"Tai Chi is a popular martial art that is also practiced as a form of exercise."


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## KumaSan (Apr 20, 2002)

I second arnisador's description.


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## disciple (Apr 20, 2002)

Tai chi is a Chinese martial art that can be practiced as a health exercise or self defense. The idea behind tai chi is in order to fight effectively, one must be able to equalize both yin and yang, yielding with maximum softness yet striking with maximum hardness, and bring offense and defense into a seamless balance.

salute

:asian:


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## Tachi (May 8, 2002)

I'm going to agree with the description 'disciple' gave.  It seems to cover all the important points in a few, concise words.


Nice job!


Tachi


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## RobP (May 10, 2002)

It's interesting though that in the Training thread people only seem to talk about practicing form or some qigong. So where does the fighting comein?


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## disciple (May 10, 2002)

> _Originally posted by RobP _
> 
> *It's interesting though that in the Training thread people only seem to talk about practicing form or some qigong. So where does the fighting comein? *



That's exactly what I thought before...till someone in this forum told me that they have used  tai chi chuan in real street fighting and that I needed to seek for a new teacher...and I did just that  If you have been only practicing the form and qigong, you are missing out the other half part of tai chi chuan 

salute

:asian:


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## Dronak (May 10, 2002)

Tai chi can definitely be used for fighting.  It was developed as a martial art and for use in self defense after all, not merely a health exercise.  The problem is most places leave out the martial applications when teaching.  I'm learning a long form of Yang style tai chi as part of my kung fu class (we have a few separate groups doing different forms).  The main focus right now, since we're all beginners, is just getting the form down.  But our teacher does show us combat applications of moves now and then.  Having an idea of how the move is actually used can help us learn it better, get things down properly more quickly.  One good example is a part of one move that involves stepping back at an angle, but not a 45 degree angle.  Most movements align along N,S,E,W or NW,NE,SW,SE.  Our teacher showed us that the reason for it is that it follows a blocking move and sets up the proper angle and distance for a strike to follow that block.  Without the demo, we'd have to keep remembering what angle to step at.  With it, it makes more sense more quickly and takes less time to remember.  As noted, we don't focus a lot on the combat applications right now because we're still in the process of just learning the moves.  But they are definitely there, we see them now and then, and they do help us understand things better.  This is why I'm glad I'm getting tai chi from this teacher in the kung fu class instead of say the recreational classes the university offers.  I figured I'd be getting more of the martial aspects here and I think it is important to know about them.


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## Tachi (May 10, 2002)

I agree with Dronak.  I study Chen style, which is best known for hard/soft and fast/slow combinations of movments as well as silk reeling energy which is very useful in martial application.  I remember as a newer student just getting the basic movement down  as well as some energy work.  It has taken awhile to learn the applications.  My Sifu teaches Shaolin Chuan Fa as well as Chen Tai Chi.  It makes a good balance.

Something fun I get to play with now is in push hands or light sparrring with students from the "dark side".  They come in full-force using external kung fu energy and I get to "show" them that Tai Chi isn't a woosy art that has no application. 

 Imagine the face of a high ranked Kung Fu student getting taken down by a petite Tai Chi woman.  

Tachi


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## disciple (May 11, 2002)

What is silk reeling? and silk reeling energy? Thx

salute

:asian:


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## Tachi (May 11, 2002)

From what I've learned, Chen Tai Chi has a strong emphasis in spiral movements.  It is compared to drawing silk out of a cocoon - even when the thread is pulled in a straight line, there is a small circling or spiraling movement that helps the thread undwind without breaking - hence "silk reeling" or "chan ssu jin".  This type of "energy" can be very powerful since it stays relaxed until needed in an explosive (fa jin) movement.

If you're curious, check out "Chen Style Taijiquan" by Davadine Siaw-Voon Sim.  It's a great resource on the Chen style.

What style do you study, if I may ask?


:asian: 

Tachi


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## disciple (May 11, 2002)

I have been studying yang style...recently I started to take chen style too, but it looked like I made the wrong decision taking that class, because the teacher only teach it for tournament/demos, so I had to quit immediately....you know what they say:
It's better to wait 3 years for a good teacher rather then learn 1 year from a bad teacher 

salute

:asian:


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## Tachi (May 11, 2002)

That's too bad - at least you didn't get soured to the style (I hope).

Something you may want to consider is checking out is the set of video tapes by Dr. Paul Lam.  You can find them on Wayfarer Publications with Tai Chi magazine.  He's very easy to follow and gives good detail on mechanics and as much on energy as a video can...the one I like best is the 36 form tape. 

I know a video can't replace an instructor, but if you are interested in Chen style, this could be a good way to get your toes wet and see if it really suits you.  I get the feeling you'd quite enjoy it.

Good talking....


Tachi


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## arnisador (May 11, 2002)

Any other thoughts on the forum description?


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## Dronak (May 12, 2002)

For reference, the main page description is:

Also known as Taijiquan / Tai Chi / T'ai Chi Ch'u"an, it is an art that is known for it's graceful movements and its stress relieving effects on the mind and body. This art combines relaxation and exercise in a series of continuous, flowing body movements.

Disciple's suggested change is:

Tai chi is a Chinese martial art that can be practiced as a health exercise or self defense. The idea behind tai chi is in order to fight effectively, one must be able to equalize both yin and yang, yielding with maximum softness yet striking with maximum hardness, and bring offense and defense into a seamless balance.

It seems to me that we're swinging from one side (primarily health) to the other (primarily fighting).    Ideally, we should have some balance between the two aspects.  Hmm, how about some sort of combination of the two and yes, I'm going to kind of copy.   Ignoring alternate spellings of "tai chi", how about something like:

Tai chi is an art that is known for its graceful movements and its stress relieving effects on the mind and body.  However, it is also an effective fighting art primarily based on the philosophy of yin and yang, finding and using the right balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent.

?


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## Matt Stone (May 12, 2002)

I'm new here, and maybe haven't quite earned the right to be critical, but... 

While I like the submission that Dronak tossed into the fray, I think it should be rearranged from this -



> Tai chi is an art that is known for its graceful movements and its stress relieving effects on the mind and body. However, it is also an effective fighting art primarily based on the philosophy of yin and yang, finding and using the right balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent.



to this - 



> Tai Chi is an effective fighting art primarly based on the philosophy of yin and yang, finding and using the right balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent.    However, the graceful movements of the form, their stress relieving effects on the mind and body, and the general benefits Tai Chi practice has on the overall health of the practitioner form the primary draw for many practitioners.



Or words to that effect.  I think that by placing the fighting issue first, we reinforce in a subtle way the fact that Taiji is a fighting art used for health maintenance, not a method of health maintenance that is used for fighting...

Just my humble and unsolicited 2 yen...


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## arnisador (May 13, 2002)

...but it probably should be a bit shorter than *Yiliquan1*'s version if possible. Still, I like his idea of putting the martial first--even if most people practice it for health, this is a martial arts board. Who wants to take another crack at it?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 13, 2002)

I haven't said much as I want you folks to really make it 'yours', ya know?

only thing I'll toss out is word count... Yiliquan1's is 68 words... the Wing Chun forums desc. is 66. (I went back and counted)

Length is fine...try and keep it under 70 words though.  When you guys agree its ready, I'll put it up.  

:asian: 

(actually, this is working out real good.  we should probably do this for some of the other forums here too.   )


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## Matt Stone (May 13, 2002)

Y'know, I wasn't going to post, actually, because I figured as a "newbie" around here I would probably just be ignored anyway...

Nice to know that this place is open and receptive to new faces...

Gotta spread the word about you guys!  Some of the other web forums are VERY clannish and it is difficult to even be taken seriously if you lack the stones to keep posting even when flamed.

Cool Stuff!


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## Chiduce (May 13, 2002)

Ami Tou Fou! My sifu also uses tai chi ch'uan in streetfighting. He instructs in both Chen and Yang style tai chi! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Bob Hubbard (May 13, 2002)

Yiliquan1, 
  we welcome just about anyone who can play nice...and we're always open to new suggestions, etc.  (don't mean we do em all, but I'm always ready to entertain a different idea. Sometimes, it takes a bit for it to be time to do somethings, ya know?)  

Peace.

:asian:


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## disciple (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> *Ami Tou Fou!*



*Chiduce:*
What arts are you studying? As far as I know this phrase is used only by shaolin monks 

salute

:asian:


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## disciple (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dronak _
> 
> *
> It seems to me that we're swinging from one side (primarily health) to the other (primarily fighting).   *



I know...that's my intention  

Tai chi was first created for fighting art not for health exercise... 

salute

:asian:


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## Dronak (May 13, 2002)

Yes, I think most of us here know that tai chi was originally developed for fighting.  The health benefits came from practicing it as a martial art.  Later on though, as I understand it, the simplified forms and such were developed specifically for health reasons; to keep the Chinese population in good health.  The reason tai chi is popular nowadays is because of the health benefits.  I think both should be included in the definition because both are important aspects.  That's why I didn't want to swing from one side to the other -- the two parts really go hand in hand and should have equal representation.

As for putting fighting before health or health before fighting, *shrug*.  I figured I'd keep the health aspect first because that's what everyone is familiar with.  It just seemed more natural to start with what everyone knows and then add to that.  Maybe that's because of my teaching experience, I'm used to building up from what students already know instead of just throwing new stuff at them right away.  However, if you'd prefer to swap the sentences I had and re-word them slightly, I don't really care.  My suggestion was mainly just an attempt to include both health and fighting about equally in the definition.


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## arnisador (May 13, 2002)

I think we're iterating to a good solution. I see *Dronak*'s point but for _this_ board I like martial first, even though I believe many more people practice it for health than for self-defense (and certainly that's on-topic here).

Let me try to modify the most recent proposal:



> Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are belived to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.



I prefer the simple Tai Chi to T'ai Chi, T'ai Chu`i Ch'uan, Taijiquan, etc. Anyone have strong feelings to the contrary?


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## Bob Hubbard (May 13, 2002)

As a couple of asides:

-we can use a longer, more descriptive uh, description as a "What is Tai Chi, and whats with all the different spellings?", etc type post that we make sticky (so it sticks to the top of the forum) as a mini-FAQ.

-anyone else see the humor in trying to balance a description for an art known for dealing with balance? 

Personally, I like the dual emphasis.  I would love to see both the 'practical' applications as well as the health benifits discussed here.  Maybe a longer description which is then summarized into the 70 words or so?

Just tossing in my 2cents.   I think you folks are doing a great job on this.

:asian:


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## Chiduce (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by disciple _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 Not exactly; a lot of practitioners, sifu and soke etc, use it. Just like domo arigato etc,. I have received letters from soke and other sifu using this phrase. Sifu chris on the shaolin arts forum which switched to msn communities also uses it regularly. My sifu will say buddha bless you at times in english.  I'am currently studying the techniques of zen kempo-jitsu, chen hsin tou shou, and white crane qi gong. I have also been introduced to northern praying mantis kung fu and yoshin ryu jujutsu. I currently teach, Clandestine Black Dragon Kenpo Karatejutsu and Butokutsuru Ryu Kenpojutsu of which i'am founder of the latter system. If you want to know a lot more about the systems, my bio, lineage etc,. Please click on the www icon beside Profile under Chiduce! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Dronak (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I prefer the simple Tai Chi to T'ai Chi, T'ai Chu`i Ch'uan, Taijiquan, etc. Anyone have strong feelings to the contrary? *



Not strong feelings, no.  Tai chi is probably the most common spelling so using it alone should be fine.  I wouldn't object to putting in Taiji, too, though as the other primary spelling of it.  The ones with the apostrophes and stuff you really never see.  If you want to use Taijiquan instead of just Taiji, I'd suggest using Tai Chi Chuan instead of just Tai Chi so that the two spellings are for the same words.  Tai Chi / Taijiquan don't match up exactly.  Basically I'm saying that I'd limit it to those two spellings if we are going to use more than one -- Tai Chi (Chuan) and/or Taiji(quan).


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## disciple (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz _
> 
> *
> -anyone else see the humor in trying to balance a description for an art known for dealing with balance?
> :asian: *



Yeah... 
How about try putting it into the description? Maybe the yang symbol represent the martial art and the yin symbol represent the health exercise? Or the other way around...  

For the spelling, to be precisely correct, just use the chinese character :rofl: 

salute

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * Not exactly; a lot of practitioners, sifu and soke etc, use it. Just like domo arigato etc,. I have received letters from soke and other sifu using this phrase. Sifu chris on the shaolin arts forum which switched to msn communities also uses it regularly. My sifu will say buddha bless you at times in english. *



Not trying to be overly critical, but the use of foreign language terms by Americans is a particular pet peeve of mine.

I live and teach in Japan.  I have studied Mandarin Chinese as well as Japanese to better educate myself in the pronunciation and use of the terms that are part of my training.

_Domo arigato_ is not just a phrase.  In common use it means the same as "thank you very much," and it is very polite in context.  It is common in a Japanese dojo for the students to say this at the end of class, thanking their instructor for passing on his knowledge.  It is not the same as the phrase you use - one is polite courtesy, one is religious blessing.

The term _soke_ is not a common term in Japanese at all.  In fact, it has only been finding use in the US, and then typically only by people that are already misusing foreign language titles...

Terms like _sensei, sifu, shihan, sigung, renshi, hanshi, kyoshi_ and others are so often misused that our Asian counterparts whose languages we are mangling find great humor in our attempts at mimickry.

_Sensei_ means, literally, "one who has gone before."  It is commonly used to display respect to martial arts teachers of Japanese or Okinawan arts.  It is not correct to use for a Chinese martial art teacher (unless he is teaching in Japan, as I do, and the native language is Japanese) nor a Korean martial arts teacher.  The term is used also for school teachers, attorneys, doctors, dentists, and others who have great skill and experience; it is not an exclusively martial term.

_Sifu_ or _Shihfu_ (Cantonese and Mandarin, same word) are used to refer to a martial arts teacher in a similar sense as _sensei_ is used in Japan.

The terms _shihan, kyoshi, renshi,_ and _hanshi_ are *never* used as forms of address, but are used in written form only.  Thus, meeting a guy that called himself "Hanshi Bob" is a *huge* no-no.  The same goes for that make-believe word, _soke_.  :angry: And anyone that demands to be called "master" anything should be smacked in the head with a blunt object...  :hammer:


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## Tachi (May 14, 2002)

I give it a thumb's up.

Tachi


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## Chiduce (May 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 I understand your point hear; yet this type of addressing and phrasing has been going on for many years. Would not you think that if the asian martial arts community thought that is was so bad that they would introduce some new type of standard for the phrases and addressing for the international martial arts community at large? You have members on this forum address themselves as shihan, hanshi etc. I'am pretty sure that they are well respected stylists, founders. etc, within the martial community! In America there is a lot of freedom; hey! Well, just my thoughts here. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Matt Stone (May 14, 2002)

So to get it back *on* topic...

I think Arnisador's re-write was dead on:



> Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.



I agree with Kaith that no discussion regarding Taiji is complete without _both_ practical applications as well as esoteric benefits.

:samurai:  :tank:


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## Matt Stone (May 14, 2002)

> * I understand your point hear; yet this type of addressing and phrasing has been going on for many years.*



Because it has been going on for many years does not make it acceptable.  I suppose the only real problem with the incorrect use of titles stems from the misrepresentation that occurs with unethical instructors attempting to pass themselves off as something they aren't.  It seems the trend in recent years to found your own system, promote yourself (as founder) to the highest rank in that system, then give yourself an important sounding title in the language of the country of origin the alleged new style is purportedly from.

I guess it is an issue of acceptable ignorance.  If a person doesn't know, and doesn't know they don't know, it isn't their fault.  If they know and don't care, that is something else entirely.  Ignorance of ignorance is tolerable.  Ignorance in the face of knowledge is unacceptable.



> *Would not you think that if the asian martial arts community thought that is was so bad that they would introduce some new type of standard for the phrases and addressing for the international martial arts community at large?*



Why does the martial arts community have to make rules for a person to use another language properly?  If you speak English, there are rules for the use of certain terms and titles.  Likewise in other languages.  For example, in Japanese you refer to a person as Lastname-sensei, not Sensei Lastname (as it would be done in English).  It is slightly humorous to hear non-Japanese speakers using that form with no awareness of why.  Even moreso when the titles used are used incorrectly.  If I held a PhD, would you call me:

a) Dr. Stone, PhD
b) Dr. Stone
c) Doctor of Philosophy Stone
d) PhD Stone

(A) is appropriate for a signature in written correspondence.  (B) is correct for spoken address.  (C) and (D) are incorrect and would sound silly if heard spoken or read in a letter.



> *You have members on this forum address themselves as shihan, hanshi etc. I'am pretty sure that they are well respected stylists, founders. etc, within the martial community!*



That's fine.  They may well be respected martial artists.  Their skill and knowledge of their fighting arts is not in question.  Just the cultural and linguistic knowledge of the background of their arts is questionable.



> *In America there is a lot of freedom; hey! Well, just my thoughts here. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



Freedom begets responsibility.  Responsiblity requires attention to detail.  If a person claims to be an instructor of a traditional Japanese style, then his title, forms of address, names of forms, name of the style, etc., should be consistent with that claim.  If he calls himself Hanshi Sifu Bill of Oopi-kai-chuan, then folks should politely point out that he sounds like a fraud...

Professional instructors should act professionally, and that includes such minor details as history and language.  We Americans have a habit of eliminating certain details we feel are unimportant, but if we are claiming to be passing on a centuries old tradition fully intact, then those details _we_ feel are unimportant may well have been critically important for the person who created the tradition we claim to pas on...

:soapbox:  No more soapbox for me.  I've said what I needed to say.  Back to Tai Chi now...


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## Tachi (May 14, 2002)

Did we ever come to a consensus on the new description?  Sorry I haven't voiced a lot given my 2 cents worth on the description, but I really think you all have had great input...and if you look back at the posts, everyone seems to be saying the same thing...the main conflict is how to organize it.

If I may suggest...we have a knowledgable mediator on this board who can put everyone's ideas together in a nice package...then we can go on with learning more about Tai Chi itself instead of trying to figure out how to describe it.   


Just my humble opinion   


Tachi


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## Bob Hubbard (May 14, 2002)

ok, anyone want to rework it a bit more, or should we go with this:



> Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.



:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 14, 2002)

Ya got my vote!


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## Chiduce (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> * It seems that the term freedom has been twisted a bit to fit the needs of and individual rather than defined as it's actual meaning! Then there is also the mention of frauds. Why would someone want to point out fraud if they were not hiding anything themselves. I'am not making accusations here, just trying to see  some type of pattern. So, there exists different levels of freedom in which a citizen must earn. This does not exclude expression. Yet, it seems that this expression should also be earned; that is to, achieve a level of honorable humility and respect for self to show this same virtue in addressing others. Try this example out for size. Since, i was a military soldier and served my country well and received a proper discharge. I'am a real citizen of this country and others which did not serve are just wanabe second classers. My military background makes me a first classer! Thus, my martial arts background makes me a real artist and others possible frauds. Sometimes the dragon gets so caught up in himself that he flies low and the tiger reaches up and pulls him out of the sky. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!
> 
> ...


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

> It seems that the term freedom has been twisted a bit to fit the needs of and individual rather than defined as it's actual meaning!



According to Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary, the definition(s) are:

1 : the quality or state of being free: as a : the absence of necessity, coercion, or constraint in choice or action b : liberation from slavery or restraint or from the power of another : INDEPENDENCE c : the quality or state of being exempt or released usually from something onerous <freedom from care> d : EASE, FACILITY <spoke the language with freedom> e : the quality of being frank, open, or outspoken <answered with freedom> f : improper familiarity g : boldness of conception or execution h : unrestricted use <gave him the freedom of their home>
2 a : a political right b : FRANCHISE, PRIVILEGE
synonyms FREEDOM, LIBERTY, LICENSE mean the power or condition of acting without compulsion. FREEDOM has a broad range of application from total absence of restraint to merely a sense of not being unduly hampered or frustrated <freedom of the press>. LIBERTY suggests release from former restraint or compulsion <the released prisoner had difficulty adjusting to his new liberty>. LICENSE implies freedom specially granted or conceded and may connote an abuse of freedom <freedom without responsibility may degenerate into license>. 

Perhaps the literal meaning of freedom is not what I am discussing.  Working in the legal profession, it is a given that there is not, nor ever will be, total freedom without a certain degree of responsibility.  I am not free to take what I like, do as I like, speak as I like, because there are certain restrictions against such things - I may not steal, kill, or slander, though it could be said that being unable to do these things hinders my free expression...

Whatever.

If you look further down you will see that the word "license" is a synonym of "freedom," and you will see that it is connected to the irresponsible interpretation of what freedom means.  It is with such "license" that instructors and practitioners that either know no better, or simply don't care enough to be correct (or whose egos would be bruised by the touch of humility incurred when they drop their fancy and improper titles) go about insisting to be referred to by inappropriate terms.



> Then there is also the mention of frauds. Why would someone want to point out fraud if they were not hiding anything themselves.



Do you mean to infer that because I fail to tolerate the misuse and abuse of titles due to multilingual ignorance that I am somehow attempting to hide skeletons of my own?  How so might that be?  Fellow instructors of my system are referred to, both by our teacher and their students by the term _sifu_, but I refuse to allow myself to be referred to in that way.  Why?  Because _sifu_ literally means "master teacher/father," and I am far from being worthy of such a title.  Sure, in the US, that title just means "teacher" to most.  But to me it doesn't because I know better.  It may suit them and others to make use of that term, but English is my native tongue and I have no need of foreign languages to authenticate and validate my training.  If they insist on a title, Mister is fine.  Not "master," nor any of an assortment of other honorary designations.  I only allow my Japanese students to refer to me as _sensei_ because in Nihongo (which a good portion of our class is conducted in) that _*is*_ the term that is appropriate for a teacher...

Your comment lacks depth.  You should have thought that through before posting it.  If I point out theft, does that mean I am hiding theft of my own?  If I point out a murder, does that mean I am killing as well?  Not hardly, though that is the logic you are following in your post...



> So, there exists different levels of freedom in which a citizen must earn.



No, they don't have to earn it, just exercise a degree of responsibility when using their freedoms...

I am perhaps not the most objective person regarding your comparison between civilians and veterans.  Being both a veteran as well as being currently on active duty, having served in the Infantry and Cavalry and currently serving in the Judge Advocate General's Corps, I feel that if a person feels strongly enough in their convictions regarding the direction the State takes, they should also feel the conviction strongly enough to place themselves in the line of fire...  Failing to do that displays a lack of conviction, and makes some overly patriotic rhetoric ring false in my ears...  I did not trust Bill Clinton to make sound military decisions as he lacked first hand knowledge of what a soldier/sailor/airman/marine/coastguardsman sacrifices at the will of the President.  Had he not had good advisors, I think the mistakes he made would have been far more numerous and severe in their effect.

While I don't feel being military or having served makes a veteran a "first classer" as you termed it, I do think it provides them with a unique perspective that is lost on a civilian.  Civilians discuss budget cuts, pay cuts, cost of living cuts, not realizing that their alleged comparison with civilian corporations falls short - last time I checked, Con Agra employees don't deploy, get involuntarily separated from their families, get shot at, blown up, driven over, bombed, they don't conduct their business in the rain, the mud, the snow, they don't get hit with Nuclear, Biological or Chemical weapons, they can't be prosecuted for telling their boss "no," etc.  So when they talk about making me make due with a substandard weapon, substandard equipment, and low pay because my "civilian counterpart" makes the same amount...  I think they lack perspective.

As for my martial training making me better than another?  Hardly.  However, I can spot a fake, I can spot a con man, I can spot a scam when I see one.  I know when I am talking with the "real deal," or with someone who got his certificate from his own printer...

Sometimes the tiger is so busy looking up in the sky trying to catch the dragon, that he forgets to remember the dog who is moving in to rip out the tiger's belly...

:samurai:  :tank:


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## arnisador (May 15, 2002)

The description looks good--and it was truly a group effort, which pleases me! There's a little bit of many people's ideas in it.

Since Tai Chi (not T'ai Chi) is used in the description, maybe change the forum name to match (i.e. drop the apostrophe)?


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## Dronak (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> *If I held a PhD, would you call me:
> 
> a) Dr. Stone, PhD
> ...



Sorry to be kind of picky, but given what you wrote I'd say only B is correct because A is redundant.  I'm pretty sure that when signing your name with a title that can be used as either a prefix or a suffix (so to speak), you choose one or the other, not both.  So for the title of PhD/Doctor, you would write Dr. [Matt] Stone or Matt Stone, PhD, but not Dr. [Matt] Stone, PhD.  That's using the same title twice and as I learned things, that's not correct.  I'll have a PhD in about a year or so if all goes well, so I'll have to decide whether I'll use the title as a prefix or suffix when writing my name, if I choose to use it at all.  

To get things back on topic, since the thread keeps wandering, Kaith's post for the description sounds pretty good to me.  And as arnisador said, it was a nice group effort.  I suppose if we really wanted to, we could debate over "The graceful movements of the forms *are believed to have* stress reducing effects . . ." (bold face mine).  Are the effects perceived in one's mind as "believed" tends to imply or are they real, actual effects?  If they're real, saying "have" instead of "are believed to have" is better.  I thought I read that there were some studies done to show that the practice of tai chi does have measureable effects on the body.  Probably things associated with a relaxed state like slowed breathing and heartbeat, but I don't have books to check at hand.  This would indicate they are real effects, not believed effects.  However, this is starting to get a little picky.  I think I'd prefer just "have effects" though to imply they're real and not just something we think happens, that tai chi practicioners are just hallucinating about the benefits of this art or something.


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## Chiduce (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Yiliquan1 _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 Ok, Stone; lets cut the bull. I feel that you think that you know better than others. Just because you feel that your system or your training somehow is better. You have that right. Now; i'am also a vet and served in both the army and the corps. You seem to be very biased toward anything which does not tickle your fancy. Now, lets first get some things straight. You and nobody else can spot a fraud. It is only your perception. It may be right or could be wrong. In some martial arts systems , there are no right or wrong answer or techniques! Just a base set to pull from. Maybe you have studied 10 years before getting your dan ranking or longer or maybe not. I studied 23 yrs. before i got mine. You can't con a con! You earn freedom. If you do not, it's expression is always warped into your perceptive reality. Picking the child out with the bomb, or terrorist on a suicide mission is mostly luck and prayer. Virtue takes practice, and more practice! I do not down any martial artist, style, or system; instructor, or practitioner. Each one has something to offer the community, such as yourself. If i sound a little harsh, i do not mean it. I just do not accept others being played upon because of what they have learned. Yes. i'am a little shocked to hear your type of reasoning about such things in this day and era. Yet; it is you. Maybe you should keep an open mind and accept others in the same light. By the way, this is not well thought out also! Why, because it is from the heart and not the mind. The heart runs the person and the mind runs the body. Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dronak _
> 
> *Sorry to be kind of picky, but given what you wrote I'd say only B is correct because A is redundant.*



Thanks for the correction.  You are, of course, 100% correct.  I had just come from class, and was worn out after a long work day as well.  Should have proofed my work better before sending it.

Thanks again!

:samurai:  :tank:


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## disciple (May 15, 2002)

> *Sometimes the dragon gets so caught up in himself that he flies low and the tiger reaches up and pulls him out of the sky...*





> *Sometimes the tiger is so busy looking up in the sky trying to catch the dragon, that he forgets to remember the dog who is moving in to rip out the tiger's belly... *



These are quite funny actually...anybody else can add to that? 

salute

:asian:


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

"Sometimes the dog forgets the owner didn't take the leash off and he gets choked out in front of a cute poodle?"

:samurai:  :tank:


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## arnisador (May 15, 2002)

I believe that Tai Chi has well-established health benefits, but the specific benefit of 'reducing stress" might be hard to measure and I don't know if it is one of those. hence, "believed" may be most accurate, though we don't need to use weasel words here.


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Chiduce _
> 
> * Ok, Stone; ...  Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce! *



I didn't come here to engage in fights.  Everything remained a perfectly open debate, a presentation of differing viewpoints backed by opinion and facts, but then you started to get a little personal... :ticked:

I never said that my system, methods or training were superior to anyone or anything else's.  I apologize if I gave the impression that I _was_ saying that :asian:.  Obviously, we all feel whatever we are training in is the best, otherwise we would be training in something else.  But never once did I point out another style being inferior in its technical content in comparison to mine.

As for the comments I made regarding the use of Chinese and Japanese language titles, I _do_ feel that I know better than some others.  This comes from having misunderstood the use of those titles, and from having native speakers make corrections.  It also comes from having members of another forum (www.e-budo.com), all of whom practice varying traditional Japanese arts, provide information and instruction on the proper use of such titles.  If you were to go there and tell them you are free to use whatever title you wish, regardless of its appropriateness or not, I am sure you would find more than a few who disagree...  :argue: 

So in the ongoing spirit of training and instruction, when I see someone misusing such titles, I give them the benefit of my knowledge and experience and try to correct their improper use of such titles.  If you were in the military, I am sure you are familiar with "on the spot" corrections, are you not?  If they take offense to that, then it seems they take issue not with my correcting them, but with doing things properly.  :2pistols:

You began speaking about the "right and wrong" of techniques in different styles.  Again, I never addressed this issue, nor even hinted at it.  Perhaps you are trying to illustrate the varied nature of martial arts practice, and that there are many ways to do one thing.  However, I am not talking about something so abstract as technical variations on technique, but rather something much more standardized - language.  Specifically, languages spoken by millions of people in their own homes, but frequently misused by non-native speakers trying to sound authentic through the use of certain (often improperly applied) terms.

You implied that I am somehow insulting, or "down"ing, other systems and instructors by pointing out their flaws.  You stated that virtue takes practice.  Perhaps these flawed instructors and systems should practice their virtue and accept that they may be wrong and could stand for a little correction.

You made comments about identifying terrorists, and referenced some reasoning of mine that you cannot understand.  The comments were confusing and left me wondering what it was you were trying to say.  Feel free to email me or PM me, and we can discuss them off forum.

Arnisador said all were welcome as long as they played nice.  I have every intention of complying with that.

I will not reply to this portion of the thread again.  :flushed:

Thanks for helping me grow!

:samurai:  :tank:


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## Dronak (May 15, 2002)

I agree that it would be kind of hard to measure stress reduction.  That's more of a feeling a person has than something that can be measured in numbers.  But there are other health aspects that can and apparently have been measured and regular practice of tai chi tends to make those numbers better.  If I dig around, I can probably find some book with a few details.  Like I said, I was starting to get picky.  The definition is basically fine.  I was just wondering if it's going to sound like the health benefits are illusionary rather than real, measureable effects.  If everyone thinks it's OK as it is now, we can go with it.


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

Can we get a posted rewrite again?  Or is this the most current version:



> Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.



I used to teach Taiji at a hospital for cardiac rehab and post-surgical rehab of hip/knee/etc. replacements.  There is documentation on the benefits of Taiji, especially for the elderly, and the effect of Taiji practice on balance, cardiac development, etc.

Just not sure where to find it...   A lot of help _I_ am, huh?

:samurai:  :tank:


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## arnisador (May 15, 2002)

I too believe that the evidence in favor of Tai Chi is documented, for e.g. arthritis. In fact I recall reading a study (yes, the actual journal article) about a study showing fewer hip injuries from falls in elderly individuals who practice Tai Chi.

Self-reported stress is of course measurable, and exercise in general is a known stress-reliever. I think the real question is, is stress the health benefit to hype?

I'm OK with it as it is!


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

I used to be a certified massage therapist once upon a time.  One of the biggest selling points to massage therapy as preventive medicine is its effect on stress...  Hard to beat a good rub down for a rough day at the office!

However, as much as stress _has_ been linked to so many killer conditions, it still sounds "fluffy."  And that kills the reputation massage therapy (the legitimate stuff, not the lace panties and baby powder kind) is trying to build - it is too "new age" and too "fluffy" for people to trust it.

I think the same goes for Taiji.  There are so many people in martial arts in general that talk about the combat effectiveness of the arts they have studied or created but never used in a fight, that it pulls the believability quotient into the mud.  If we stick to only stress relief as a big defining point on Taiji, we are going to sound as if we are wholly in the "goober camp," for lack of a more tolerant term.

Sure, stress relief _*is*_ a huge portion of what many of the health bennies stem from, but to focus on it, at least to my mind, seems to "fluff" the fact that any other kind of exercise can provide similar stress reduction - aerobics, weight lifting, running, etc.  So, if we focus on the martial aspect and the things that are more specific bennies of Taiji practice (increased proprioception, heightened balance and movement fluidity, etc.), I think it makes Taiji sound a heckuva lot more legitimate...

Just my 2 yen.

:samurai:  :tank:


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## Dronak (May 15, 2002)

Stress relief is what led me to tai chi to begin with, not combat.    And most people are familiar with tai chi as an art that promotes health more so than fighting skills.  Yiliquan1, we're changing the definition so that it's not wholly health related.  That was the main reason this topic came up -- we wanted to say something about the fighting aspects of tai chi.  I don't think we need to emphasize the stress relief or health benefits in the description, but I think they should be kept as part of it.  The last posted definition is basically fine with me.  All I was bringing up, which I admit is getting kind of picky, was the wording about "are believed to have effects" which kind of implies the effects are imagined or in some way not real.  We just think they happen.  But there are real, measureable effects and so I think just "have effects" would be fine.  We're basically discussing one verb here, so it's not really that big of a deal.


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## Matt Stone (May 15, 2002)

I got into Taiji by way of my main art, so it was accidental for me.  I didn't deliberately seek Taiji out for any particular reason.

I think the posted definition looks good, and I would agree that your orientation on the "belief" or "fact" of the stress reduction should be fixed somehow.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 15, 2002)

> Tai Chi is a fighting art and system of exercise based on the philosophy of yin and yang--finding and using the balance between hardness and softness to overcome one's opponent. The graceful movements of the forms are believed to have stress reducing effects on the mind and health improvement effects on the body, and these benefits of Tai Chi practice are the primary interest of many practitioners.



Thank you everyone for your input on this.  I realize theres a lot of room to expand on this, and explain and explore the diferent aspects of the art, both martially, and medically.  I ask that rather than continuing the debate here, you start a few new threads and pick up the topics there (but refer back here for the root parts).

Once again, thank you all.
:asian:


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## Chiduce (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by disciple _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


 Disciple; actually the dragon paraphrase is directly from a quote of wisdom to all martial artist's whom would choose to learn the way. The late shaolin kenpo teacher; Sifu Padreo owns the rights to it. He was a humble man of great knowledge! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## Tachi (May 16, 2002)

Thank you, Kaith - it the description sounds great.


Tachi


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## arnisador (May 16, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Tachi _
> 
> *Thank you, Kaith - it the description sounds great.
> *



And best of all, it was a group effort! Nearly everyone contributed something to it.


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## disciple (May 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by disciple _
> 
> *I am rather disagree about the tai chi description on the first page, cause its only explains about the relaxation and body exercise without inserting tai chi's combat value in it.
> 
> ...



Not Anymore 

salute

:asian:


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## tonbo (May 17, 2002)

Hey, just wanted to chime in on the debate and subsequent result:

The new description *rocks*!!

It's good to finally educate people a bit more about Tai Chi.  It is too often seen as just a "workout", "new age", or "old person's" art......

So few know the truth....

Nice work, to all those involved!!

:asian: 

Peace--


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## happyguy (May 22, 2002)

I agree with disciples' definition.While there is a greater emphasis on the health aspects , in order to get a "complete meal ", you must be willing to approach the combative aspects of the art . In that sense , it's a truly functional art . I think it's amusing , personally, that when people observe sparing sessions , they are so amazed that "strength" is used . The truth is , it takes more than qi and wishful thinking to move another body . It's the way strength is used that's important .


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## theneuhauser (Jun 5, 2002)

> The truth is , it takes more than qi and wishful thinking to move another body . It's the way strength is used that's important .



well said happyguy


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