# Is kata and bunkai a waste of time?



## MMAfreak (Jun 23, 2008)

I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me.  I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.  

I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training.  I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.

I am not saying that one style is better, but it sure has made a BIG difference for me in the sparring/application of JKD & jiu jitsu vs. the repetition of kata/bunkai.

Is it possible to be an expert in kata and still not be able to protect yourself against the simplest attacks? In kempo we would break apart the kata and work on individual applications of the moves, and I thought I was starting to really get a good understanding of self-defense in the process.  Then one day I am fooling around with a guy who is a wrester and he makes me look really bad.  So I get together with a couple others with JKD backgrounds and do some light sparring and I realized that I would have gotten my rear-end handed to me in a real confrontation.  Kata did not prepare me AT ALL for the types of attacks that would happen in a real confrontation.


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## exile (Jun 23, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me.  I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.
> 
> I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training.  I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.
> 
> ...



Have you done non-compliant training of the kind that people in the applied karate/bunkai-jutusu movement note as _essential_ to make the brilliant SD techs locked up in the kata work as designed? Have you pressure-tested the kata in two-person drills with someone coming at you not with another karate technique and minimal damage intentions, but rather with street-attack techs&#8212;which is what karate was designed to give you tools to counter&#8212;and the possibility of getting bones broken or joints dislocated if you screw up, as described in Iain Abernethy's _Black Belt_ article in the November 2007 issue? 

There are at least half a dozen threads devoted to just this topic that are readily accesssible in MartialTalk's archives, which a simple use of the Search function will reveal to you. I'd suggest you look at the conversations that have already take place on this topic before launching a new rehash of something most of us who take kata training seriously are too tired of going over yet again to have much interest in another round of. For starters, take a look at http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=29821 and http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14915. 

Read these carefully and you will see exactly why those of us who view kata as the technique record of the karate-based arts take them seriously. Then we'll have something to talk about, eh?


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## jks9199 (Jun 23, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me.  I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.
> 
> I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training.  I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.
> 
> ...



It's also possible for a great MMA fighter or non-kata sparring pro to get their *** handed to them in a real fight...

Kata and applications training are not some magic wand that automatically creates a skilled fighter.  Nor is sparring.  It really comes down to how you train, and what you train for.  If you've never trained for a wrestling grab, you'll have problems the first time you face one.  If you've only done one-step, sequenced sparring, you'll find someone used to continuous free sparring to be more than you can handle.  If your "self defense" training isn't built around realistic attacks with some realism in how you face them -- you'll find that you aren't ready for a real attack.

You need to balance your training; there's a place for practicing sequences of moves alone (which is really all a kata is, after all), with a compliant partner, and with a resisting partner.  There's a place for scripted exercises, and a place for free sparring with various levels of contact.  

If you put too much emphasis on any one part of the equation, you won't find success.  Unfortunately, many instructors are not skilled at teaching in various methods; they repeat the same approach that they were taught -- but often lose something in the translation.


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 23, 2008)

As Ex and JK have pointed out we all need balance in our training.  Extremism is the death of good skills.

Take a look at modern Wushu.  These people are often considered masters of forms, but application has fallen completely by the wayside.  What about sport martial arts?  No kata/forms here but I doubt many of them would be effective in a real situation.  It just extremism.

Kata by itself will work as well as learning only from a book.  They are essentially the same thing.  I'm very proud of my forms but, while teach me how to do many things, they do not teach me about resistance of the actual feel of hitting someone, or something.  My classes include forms, forms interpretation and application, one-step, bag and mitt work, and free sparring.  With only one of these things you are standing at one end of the balance rather than in the middle.


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## terryl965 (Jun 23, 2008)

Kata and Bunkai is what you make of it, if you believe it is a waste of time then it is. Only your instructor can show you the light for the meaning behind these application. Best of luck in your training.


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## tellner (Jun 23, 2008)

MMAF, you're actually right. Most kata work is more performance art than martial training. And most styles that have kata have way, way too many of them. I don't mean things like traditional Kendo where the kata are very short and usually encapsulate one or two ideas. Others with a three or four medium length forms plus a few for each of the weapons of the style make sense. There's enough there to span most of the major principles.

When you start getting into systems that have a dozen or more forms it's getting bigger than most people's headspace. When you hit ones like Wah Lum Preying Mantis which boasts over 100 forms it's become an exercise in memorization. There is precious little time to learn anything else or to extract much useful from any particular kata. 

A lot of people will say "You get out of it what you put into it" and "All the good stuff is hidden there if you just work at it long enough". Our Late Grandmaster was a gawdlike fighter who could split trees with a glance and shatter mountains with his front kick. Who are you to question him? There's some truth there sure enough. But there's also a heavy dose of blaming the victim. If it doesn't work it means that you didn't work hard enough, long enough. You are at fault, not the training method. 

The system may have nothing at all to do with how The Founder(tm) (any founder) learned to fight. More often they had something and came up with other things that worked. Someone wanted to learn how they did it, so they came up with forms to capture what they developed by a completely different process. It might work. It might not. It probably had nothing to do with the way they figured out their really good stuff.

There are people who use kata as an effective training tool. But they don't tend to break things down into excruciating detail with pages and pages to memorize much of the time. And they don't have elaborate catalogs of techniques for particular situations. "If he does A do B. If he does G do H," isn't fighting. It's what my teacher calls Organized Despair. 

Nope. The ones who make forms training serve martial arts training instead of making it an end in itself tend to do things more or less like this:

They don't have many forms. And none of the forms is very long. The kata or whatever you call them mostly consist of basic root movements of the system divided into fairly short sequences. Any connected sequence that goes on for seven or eight moves is divorced from reality. No single exchange in a real confrontation lasts that long.

In the beginning you learn a little more form than you understand. More is introduced from time to time. But it's always a three-legged race between understanding, knowledge and skill. And of those knowledge is the least important. You learn some form. You learn how to use it in the context of the rest of class. And by "learn to use" you become comfortable with it and learn to apply it in many different ways in response to many situations. When you can do that and make it work you learn some more. From time to time as your general ability grows you go back to earlier material and use it in light of your new understanding and skill. If the curriculum has any connection to the way you are supposed to fight it will be used as a reference for principles and technique. 

The point isn't to remember that such and such a move from the fourth form at brown belt level is used for this, that and the other thing. The point is to move well and be aware in everything you do but to do it without becoming attached to any particular technique. In a real fight you can't stop to remember specific chains of techniques. All you can do is be efficient, control the action and be familiar enough with your basics so that you will come up with something that follows the core principles of your style. That's when you begin to make the system into your own style.

At the beginning the teacher pulls out lessons from the form to give you something concrete to refer to. As you progress you come up with things on your own or you see something and want to remember it or have something to relate it to. Then the form is something you put your knowledge and experience into. That way your forms practice can help you remember and have a practiced response to unexpected things that happen. It might not be a sophisticated polished response, but at least it will be based on movements that you can perform efficiently and without having to think about. When kata training is done right if nothing else you'll be reinforcing good body mechanics. If your teacher hasn't cultivated good body mechanics and efficient movement in the students I don't know what to tell you.


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## exile (Jun 23, 2008)

tellner said:


> They don't have many forms.
> And none of the forms is very long. The kata or whatever you call them mostly consist of basic root movements of the system divided into fairly short sequences. Any connected sequence that goes on for seven or eight moves is divorced from reality.
> You learn how to use it in the context of the rest of class. And by "learn to use" you become comfortable with it and learn to apply it in many different ways in response to many situations.



These are the key, core points. To Tellner you listen... :yoda:


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## Sukerkin (Jun 23, 2008)

Beat me to it, *Exile* :rei:.


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## MJS (Jun 23, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.
> 
> I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.
> 
> ...


 
Others have already made some great points, but I'll toss in my 2 pennies as well.   There are some great tools in kata.  Of course, its very important to have a teacher who can show the applications.  If someone doesnt understand the kata, its going to be pretty hard to translate the moves.  IMHO, kata is just one part.  Will you be able to fight just using kata?  Some will say yes.  IMHO, I feel that you need to incorporate the other tools into training as well, ie: sparring, resistance training, etc.  

The things you take from kata, just like the techniques in Kenpo, are not and should not be set in stone.  Its a tool to help build a foundation.  Will you pull a full tech. off?  Probably not, but you should be able to use a portion of that tech.

Also keep in mind that when you're working with a grappler, its good to have some grappling knowledge under your belt.  Many of the takedown/tackle techniques that are in Kenpo, I like to work against a grappler.  I'll use them to help me make any adjustments to the tech. to fine tune them.  

So, in closing, as I said, kata is good.  Is it the end all-be all?  No, but there is alot of usefull material in it.   Is sparring the end all be all?  No.  But its something that needs to be in the mix as well. 

Mike


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## YoungMan (Jun 23, 2008)

Always amuses me when someone with several years of training claims forms and form application are useless.
Forms are what help make a martial art more than just sparring and drills. Forms impart ideas and principles in a way different, but no less beneficial, than sparring. My instructor was a Korean national free fighting champion, in an era when it was brutal and you often risked your life at these tournaments. He believed strongly in forms and the wisdom they imparted.
And since forms contain many techniques that are designed to inflict pain and cause damage, they most definitely are martial.


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## tellner (Jun 23, 2008)

So your teacher had some success fighting in his day. This is good. But whom was he fighting? It was people doing the same style with the same training methods. That doesn't give a fair basis for comparison. And it gets back to the same government propaganda we've hashed over so many times before: The Koreans and their kwans are just miles tougher, stronger, wiser, more brutal, faster, better fighters, ROK Marines et cetera ad infinitum. 

MMAF is having the trouble applying his training against people who fight differently and train differently. If he's spent a few years training diligently in a forms-based style he should be able to hold his own against other people who have spent a few years training diligently in a non forms-based style. Since he isn't we need to take a look and see why. Saying "My teacher is tough and use those training methods" doesn't help unless he can offer some useful advice on how to solve this problem. It would help if that advice were based on relevant experience.

Besides, what exactly do you mean when you say that your coach "believes in" forms? Has he tried alternatives and found them wanting? How does he use the training method to good effect? What does he consider to be the important aspects of forms work? What are the benefits, and how are they achieved?


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## Sukerkin (Jun 24, 2008)

There is nothing wrong with training via forms.  It's the training method of choice for all cultures through all cycles of military evolution.

I hesitate to bang this drum yet again but if you perform kata without effective visualisation and understanding then it *is* just movement without function and it will be very difficult to apply (either in sparring or in a real fight).

If you do properly visualise, then applying those techniques to another situation is a relatively easy transition.

Of course, it is something that will vary from individual to individual and oddly enough kids are much better at it than adults because they more easily immerse themselves in the 'fantasy landscape' of the kata.

The more effectively you visualise then the easier the transition.  By visualise I don't just mean the term the way athletics coaches do, where the focus is on imagining performing a technique perfectly.  It is summoning up a virtual fight where you 'see' the environment, the opponents, how they move, were they are, what they are doing, how you are moving in relation to them and so on.  

It's not easy at first but it makes a world of difference and you can soon tell who is visualising and who is rote repeating.


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## Guardian (Jun 24, 2008)

Nothing is ever worthless, different applications for different reasons, yes, your right that you'll feel light years ahead with your training and hardcore practices compared to Kenpo that takes far longer to accomplish the same thing, but in the end, both do accomplish the same thing.  It's a matter of personal choice.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 24, 2008)

MMAfreak,

Kata means form.  Properly practiced Kata develops proper form.  Footwork, body mechanics, posture, transitions, basics, targeting, centers, triangulation, and alignment must be refined.  If you're just in a rush to throw hands and don't want to take the time Kata practice demands you won't reap the refinement it produces.  The mindset you're embracing is very common in MMA and looking at the results, I see a majority of fighters whose posture is poor and striking is very sloppy.  On the other hand GSP & Machida 2 of the best strikers in the UFC have crisp striking with great form and just so happen to have very strong TMA backgrounds in arts that practice Kata.

Bunkai means to break down and analyze.  Bunkai is mental training. Too many practitioners limit Bunkai to the few interpretations they've been shown by a teacher or seen on a video.  To really study the bunkai of a movement you must experiment and think for yourself.  This means trying the move with different distances, at all angles, and against various attacks and defenses.  It also means getting rid of preconceived notions and trying to see how that blocking movement can be used as a strike or a lock or a throw and how to reinterpret strikes, kicks, chambers, and other body positions.  The greatest benefit one should derive from Kata Bunkai is creativity and spontaneity in Martial Arts.  Without creativity you will be limited to what you are taught.  Without spontaneity you will suffer from the paralysis of analysis or be forced to limit and simplify your repertoire to "what works."

Of course after all is said and done - facing a non-compliant opponent at as close to full speed and full power as you can safely do within reason is an essential component of Martial Arts training.  One does not preclude or replace the other.  If you eliminate Kata and Bunkai and replace it with sparring and grappling only, you will develop real time skills against an opponent but you will not get the benefits you would have gotten from Kata and Bunkai.  If you eliminate sparring and grappling and replace it with Kata and Bunkai only, you will develop great form and spontaneity but your skills will be untested.

_Don Flatt


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## bowser666 (Jun 24, 2008)

I am sure this has been repeated somewhere, but the whole purpose of forms , is for conditioning and honing technique. They are a necessary part of training in any art IMO . Not to mention it also helps keep your mind sharp ( memory) and helps you learn to breathe properly, Qi Gong , etc.....  Many , many , benefits from doing forms. To not practice them is to take a shortcut and sometimes the longer road is the better one.


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## harlan (Jun 24, 2008)

Just an addition:

http://seinenkai.com/articles/tankosich/tankosich3.html



Quote:

Translation of Mabuni's "Practice Karate Correctly"

In karate, the most important thing is _kata_. Into the _kata_ of karate are woven every manner of attack and defense technique. Therefore, _kata_ must be practiced properly, with a good understanding of their _bunkai_ meaning. There may be those who neglect the practice of _kata_, thinking that it is sufficient to just practice [pre-arranged] _kumite_ (13) that has been created based on their understanding of the _kata_, but that will never lead to true advancement. The reason why is that the ways of thrusting and blocking - that is to say, the techniques of attack and defense - have innumerable variations. To create _kumite_ containing all of the techniques in each and every one of their variations is impossible. If one sufficiently and regularly practices _kata_ correctly, it will serve as a foundation for performing - when a crucial time comes - any of the innumerable variations. 

          However, even if you practice the _kata_ of karate, if that is all that you do, if your [other] training is lacking, then you will not develop sufficient ability. If you do not [also] utilize various training methods to strengthen and quicken the functioning of your hands and feet, as well as to sufficiently study things like body-shifting and engagement distancing, you will be inadequately prepared when the need arises to call on your skills. 

          If practiced properly, two or three _kata_ will suffice as "your" _kata_; all of the others can just be studied as sources of additional knowledge. Breadth, no matter how great, means little without depth. In other words, no matter how many _kata_ you know, they will be useless to you if you don't practice them enough. If you sufficiently study two or three _kata_ as your own and strive to perform them correctly, when the need arises, that training will spontaneously take over and will be shown to be surprisingly effective. If your _kata_ training is incorrect, you will develop bad habits which, no matter how much _kumite_ and _makiwara_ practice you do, will lead to unexpected failure when the time comes to utilize your skills. You should be heedful of this point.         

  Correctly practicing _kata_ - having sufficiently comprehended their meaning - is the most important thing for a karate trainee. However, the _karate-ka_ must by no means neglect _kumite_ and _makiwara_ practice, either. Accordingly, if one seriously trains - and studies - with the intent of approximately fifty percent _kata_ and fifty percent other things, one will get satisfactory results.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 24, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.
> 
> I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.
> 
> ...


As exile first said, we've been down this road too many times for me to get *up* for it again. May I take a different approach than the others here--each of whom has offered nuggets of wisdom in response? I'd say this, with all due respect, to someone who has a couple of years in the MA's and decides forms are useless: _Don't do them_. It's your practice, your life, so do what makes you happy.

On the other hand, such a decision would disqualify someone from training with me--but I'm probably not all that good anyway.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 24, 2008)

bowser666 said:


> To not practice them is to take a shortcut and sometimes the longer road is the better one.


Quicker results are not necessarily better.  While it is important to be able to defend yourself today - don't do it at the expense of tomorrow.  We live in a hurried society.  
Microwave meals is one thing but microwave martial arts-:soapbox:.......

I plan on studying martial arts for the rest of my life.  If I can get thru all the material in only a few years - what good is that to me?  If I must rely on youthful speed and strength - what happens when I'm old?

_Don Flatt


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## tellner (Jun 24, 2008)

Are you implying that martial arts which do not have kata are quick to learn but low quality? If you are then with all due respect you are dead wrong. There are plenty out there which are excellent and which do not have anything you would recognize as kata or kuen. 

Kata are a training method which can be useful if valid material is taught correctly. They are not the Unholy Ichor of Great Cthulhu. They are not necessary to develop skill or understanding.


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## YoungMan (Jun 24, 2008)

I don't think that's what is being said at all. I believe what they are saying is that forms, as practiced in martial arts that have them, are quite useful and impart ideas beyond sparring and drills. Not all styles have them. But forms themselves are not a waste of time at all.
I do think that proper forms practice requires a great deal of patience (very difficult for an energetic 20-something I know), and leads to a much deeper understanding of martial application.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 24, 2008)

tellner said:


> Are you implying that martial arts which do not have kata are quick to learn but low quality? If you are then with all due respect you are dead wrong. There are plenty out there which are excellent and which do not have anything you would recognize as kata or kuen.


 
No.
Rather, my rant is in regards to trying to take a short-cut to obtain skill.

I'm not in favor of discounting or dismissing anything.  I will respect the wisdom of those who went before me and do my best to learn from what they thought was important.

However, If someone came from a Kata based art and decided to dismiss Kata as useless or attempt to replace it with another vehicle - I think it would be more than likely that person is practicing/teaching an inferior version of that art.

_Don Flatt


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## Grenadier (Jun 24, 2008)

The kata are a vital part of many Karate systems.  Through the kata, you work on perfecting the mechanics of your techniques, and learn how to apply them in a way that's relatively easy to learn.  Practicing kata, IMHO, helps you get better with your kumite.  

If you look at the folks who compete at the national level, it's not unusual to see those who have placed in the top spots in kata, to do a similar job in kumite.  

Does this mean that kata is the *only* way to learn and refine your techniques?  Of course not.  Many systems either don't have kata, or practice very few of them, if any.  Does this mean that such systems are junk?  I wouldn't say so.  It's just that they choose not to use a certain type of tool, that's all.  

Even if I don't agree with not using that excellent tool, I won't argue with the results generated by successful systems.  After all, their ends do justify their means, just as ours do.  

If you want to use kata to help your training, then by all means, use it.  It's a well established tool.  If you want to use some other tool to accomplish the task, by all means, then go ahead.  I'll stick with what works for me.


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## Twin Fist (Jun 25, 2008)

Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.


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## tellner (Jun 25, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.


 
Eh? How do you figure that?


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## Steel Tiger (Jun 25, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> Kata is what seperates the martial arts from the fighting systems.


 
I would like to ask - what do you consider the differentiating features of the two?


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## exile (Jun 25, 2008)

I see the contrast between combat systems so far as formal patterns are concerned as a kind of parallel to the difference between two different ways of teaching morality/virtue/ethics etc. You can simply come out and tell people how they should behave, preach at them, specify exactly what they should and should not do. Or you can offer them parables which illustrate exactly the same canon of behavior, but which disguise their message somewhat and require people to interpret them. And in cases of the latter, you may well find multiple, different, but equally applicable and commendable interpretations of the same parable.

Combat hapkido doesn't have kata, but it has drills&#8212;huge numbers of very sharp two and three move combinations that you practice with a partner. As I understand it, Ueshiba's aikido also did not employ kata as an instructional tool. The partner drills these systems provide are literal instructions on what to do when, in case you're attacked; the technique of the system is therefore explicit, embedded in the knowledge of how to respond with any one of dozens of different possible responses to just about any kind of attacking move imaginable. These kinds of systems operate with combat sermons and lists of commandments. The karate-based arts, with their kata and related forms, or the CMAs with their hsings, offer you, in constrast, parables of defensive combat techniques, each one composed of subepisodes which have, taken singly, multiple interpretations, the most effective of which from the experienced fighter's point of view are well-hidden under the simple block-punch-kick appearance of the moves. Much of the previous discussion on MT that I referred the OPer to is about how to decode the kata (in the general sense) and extract the meaning, guided by the particular strategic principles of the art. The difference isn't so much a matter of content, as I see it, but of instructional technique&#8212;pedagogy, in short. 

But none of it is worth a damn from the point of view of live, real-time SD unless it's practiced in a deadly-serious way with a partner who is willing to assume the persona of a dangerous, vicious attacker bent on hurting the defender, possibly gravely. There are ways to make such partner training of kata techs less dangerous, but the hazards for both the attacker and the defender are non-trivial. That's _also_ going to be true in any of the fighting systems that _don't_ have kata, however. Combat Hapkido, Krav Maga, or anything else designed to save your life, under extreme violence, require brutally realistic training to make the techniques encoded in their drills a reflexive tool immediately available when unavoidable danger meets you. The difference in the fighting systems is just that this has always been understood, I think, in those systems that we think of as 'combatives', like KM (and Hapkido, to some extent). The message fell by the wayside with many of the TMAs, however&#8212;but people like Iain Abernethy, Geoff Thompson, Peyton Quinn and others are teaching us how to bring it back.


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## kailat (Jun 25, 2008)

Interesting question;  I'd like to add here.  There needs to be a foundation in whatever it is you study.   

 For me, my foundation was Kara'te.  I hated Kata for many years.  It got so bad that it had made me drop out of karate immedietly after I recieved my black belt.   I dropped Kara'te and didn't look back.  I went and started to study more devestating arts, much like the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA), Indonesian Martial Arts (IMA), Bruce Lee Jun Fan Jeet Kune Do, and dabbled in other arts.   One thing that I found later on, was that my foundation in Kara'te had fomed me to be a great martial artist in whole.  Now granted that did not completly over-ride all the arts I studied, but I felt there was a positive reinforcment there.

 It wasnt until many years later I had ran into a great martial artist, and we quickly become friends.  He was and still is by far an excellent FMA player.    He opened my eyes one day to KATA and what it really, truely represented.  I had never seen that part before.  The actual "Bunkai"..I then later started really developing a rapport for Kata.   I found a missed love for Kara'te and Kata within itself.   So in truth I think its soley the decision left to the practicioner.  One thing I know for sure, is once I solidified w/ myself that Kata was meaningful after all and not just ran fr some dumb belt, or a pretty shiny dumb trophey that it actually held meaning.  I THEN was reborn as a martial artist.  I began to open my eyes and seeing things for what they were and it just "clicked"....

 I now use isolated Kata movement many times to help me teach self defense, or to show how they relate from one system to another.  Bunkai to me is like chapters in a book.  KATA being the book.  Movements tell the story, and bunkai depicts the chapter of the book in whole.

 Now, in conjunction with what I have just said, is Kata necessary?  Not in all arts, nor do all individuals need it, want it, or have to have it.  You can learn functional fighting w/o ever learning a kata.  People do it every day.  I feel martial arts has evolved beyone KATA today vs. 40, 50, + years ago.   But these so called "combative" arts had to have been developed from somewhere right?  They just didn't appear!!  THEY CAME FROM KATA at some point, in a traditional martial art. ie Chinese Gung Fu, Okinawa Kara'te / To'de.

  What was acceptable & useful 50+ yrs ago, is not as useful today.

 so if you personally feel Kata is useless than it more than likely will be.. Because until you have the revelation of truth, it will really not be meaningful to your training.  It really will be just a waste of time.


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## MMAfreak (Jun 26, 2008)

I wasn't trying to get an argument going with this thread.  I really do want to have opinions from others.  It seems that if you are a traditionalist you are going to support kata no matter what.  If you started into martial arts within the past few years and only had MMA training you would dismiss kata right away.

I probably should not have titled this thread "is kata and bunkai a waste of time?", because I don't think that any learning is a waste, rather I should ask whether there are better ways to learn martial arts than kata.  I personally think that there are ways to learn fighting skills far faster than with kata...but that doesn't mean that people who have learned through kata are less skilled.  I have been happily surprised that there are many styles that use kata and many that don't...neither seems to have all the answers.  

I guess I am probably a "bad American" in that I see the time and money I spent over the years and wish I could have done things differently.  I have been a part of so many discussions over the last few years about how we as "lazy Americans" are always looking for the fastest way to learn something.  I guess I would say that I fit into that category...and I don't apologize for it.  I just happen to think that some of the things we do are done out of tradition rather than necessity.  I'll leave it at that.  Thanks for all the responses.


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## girlbug2 (Jun 26, 2008)

Lots of great points made by tellner and others before me. May I also relate to you some of my personal observations?

I studied Kenpo for a few years before switching to Krav Maga for various reasons. KM has no uniforms, no katas and is very informal in general. It is a very aggressive and effective streetfighting style. After 3 months in Krav I do feel more effective as a fighter, as though my training is advancing more quickly than it did in Kenpo. _However_. I also realized three things:

1. My Kenpo training with katas and numerous variations of techniques gave me a spectacular bag of skills to use, mixed in with KM or alone, and allowed me to be more creative and spontaneous.

2. My Kata training specifically gave me an almost unconscious application of proper breathing and stance which has not yet been emphasized strongly (I feel) at my KM Level One classes. As a result, I have unusually powerful strikes for my current rank.

3. I really do miss Katas. 

In the end, there is something to be said for the artistic and the traditional sides of martial arts that goes lacking somewhat when Katas are absent from one's skill set. Forms give you that sense of appreciation for the ideal you are striving toward. I don't think it is possible to be a truly well-balanced martial artist without them.

After all, isn't being well-balanced what we are all trying to achieve each in our own ways?


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## Em MacIntosh (Jun 27, 2008)

Katas are patterns and choreographed.  The bunkai is choreographed.  That doesn't mean they aren't effective for teaching technique, muscle memory and finess but it has to be stressed that any of the techniques are interchangeable for any given situation but there will be few "good" moves.  I think too many get comfortable with a kata more concerned with "doing it right" than developing the cultivated "disceplined but despirate" attitude necessary to survive a life and death situation.  I find kata is about the visualization, a moving meditation taking advantage of the brain's alpha-wave to better develop muscle memory.  Let's face it, in combat finess goes out the window which is why it's so important to develop the muscle memory.  I personally find that for a technique to work optimally in karate it depends on too many factors being perfect.  I find many martial arts to be much more practical and less dependant on perfect technique to be used effectively, not to say that karate's not effective, it's just harder, IMO, to use effectively, compared to kickboxing, for example (IMOIMOIMO), not having to keep your rear heel on the floor allows for fluidity, flexibility and, IMO, much more power with the cross or hook at a (supposed) cost of stability.  A lot of my problems with karate are based on lack of gastroc flexibility causing my footwork to suffer immensely.  As much as I have respect for kata I find sparring to give you a better idea of the variable mechanics and improvisation if not a good way to train certain aspects of the psychology of violence.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 27, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I don't want to start an argument, because I know many people believe in kata, but it seems like a waste of time to me. I can appreciate the art side of martial arts, but kata seems more art than martial.
> 
> I have spent several years in kenpo/kempo and countless hours of kata/bunkai training. I have spent less than a year in JKD and Jiu Jitsu and feel light years ahead of where I was at in kenpo.
> 
> ...


If you can't defend yourself by training Kata you are doing somthing wrong.
Sean


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## tellner (Jun 27, 2008)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you can't defend yourself by training Kata you are doing somthing wrong.


 
More likely his teacher is doing something wrong.


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## chinto (Jun 28, 2008)

the simple answer is NO IT IS NOT...   but this is an old argument.  there is an incredible amount of information in kata, your job is to find it and find the bunkai that is there too. there should be a minimum of 5 techniques after the basic kihon one for all the traditional old kata.
just watched a 25 year old video of a man who trains in the same system as I do.. he threw and locked on the ground and standing .. and choked and of course struck... and could have broken and worse in that demo.... but it is after all rude to brake your partner. I train in a traditional Okinawan karate system, and all these things have always been there in it!  some will try and tell you they have not, but they do not know what they are talking about.  its all there in the kata!


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## exile (Jun 28, 2008)

I agree with chinto: it's all there. But... and it's a big one... you aren't going to benefit from it unless (i) you learn to read the kata in a way that lets you see the hard, practical combat applications that were intended (and maybe some good ones that _weren't_) and (ii) you train these applications in a dedicated way. That doesn't mean rote practice of the kata so that you have a beautifully choreographed martial dance at the end. It means, you make shrewd deductions about what martial _moves_ the _movements_ in the kata are instructing you to carry out, and you find a training partner who will carry out attack initiations on you that that sequence of moves you discovered was designed to counter. And your training partner had better be trying fairly hard to make contact with you. A compliant training partner is doing you no favors.

Think of the kata, or similar patterns in other MAs, as something like the score of a concerto by a great composer. The beauty of the piece is there, and the information on how to get it and make it visible. But you need to do two things in order to get there: first, you need to learn to read music. Second, once you understand the notes you're supposed to play, you need to practice your part as though you were involved in a real performance, every time you practice. A kata is the 'score' of a set of effective self defense scenarios, but the same requirements have to be met as with the musical score, if you want to derive the benefit of the kata. There's no other way to do it.


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## MJS (Jun 28, 2008)

MMAfreak said:


> I wasn't trying to get an argument going with this thread. I really do want to have opinions from others. It seems that if you are a traditionalist you are going to support kata no matter what. If you started into martial arts within the past few years and only had MMA training you would dismiss kata right away.
> 
> I probably should not have titled this thread "is kata and bunkai a waste of time?", because I don't think that any learning is a waste, rather I should ask whether there are better ways to learn martial arts than kata. I personally think that there are ways to learn fighting skills far faster than with kata...but that doesn't mean that people who have learned through kata are less skilled. I have been happily surprised that there are many styles that use kata and many that don't...neither seems to have all the answers.


 
I think alot of it comes down to how someone trains something.  If all someone does is kata, never adding in any live training or perhaps working kata with a body, you probably won't get much out of it.  Like I said, it all comes down to how someone trains something.  

I'll also repeat that kata, IMO, is just 1 part of the puzzle.  I feel that you still need to add in the other aspects of training, in addition to the kata.  Sparring, scenario drills, mult. attackers, weapons....all things that should be worked during training.  



> I guess I am probably a "bad American" in that I see the time and money I spent over the years and wish I could have done things differently. I have been a part of so many discussions over the last few years about how we as "lazy Americans" are always looking for the fastest way to learn something. I guess I would say that I fit into that category...and I don't apologize for it. I just happen to think that some of the things we do are done out of tradition rather than necessity. I'll leave it at that. Thanks for all the responses.


 
I reflect back on my training years and often wonder what things would be like had I trained differently.  Should I have started in a different art?  Should I have worked certain areas more and sooner, rather than later?  The questions are endless.  I've made quite a few changes from how I used to train, to how I train now.  I give credit to alot of the MMA and RBSD people, for giving me some new ideas to play with.


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## MJS (Jun 28, 2008)

tellner said:


> More likely his teacher is doing something wrong.


 
So very true.  I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about.  "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times.  Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail.


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## exile (Jun 28, 2008)

MJS said:


> So very true.  I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about.  "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times.  Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail.



It's important to bear in mind, always, that the decline of kata as a core teaching tool for the combat content of karate and related arts began long, long ago in Japan, with the large-size university club classes that Funakoshi started... and maybe even longer ago than that (I've read speculation that Itosu experimented with individual _kihon_ techniques and floor drill exercises in planning the incorporation of karate in the Okinawan school system, in preference to kata-based instruction,  in the early 20th c.). And as Higaki reports in his recent book on bunkai for the Pinan/Heian kata set, the expat Okinawans were none too keen on teaching the Japanese the deepest technical applications of the kata movement subsequences. So the rot was setting in quite some time back. And with each generation, the loss of information increases, of course, all other things being equal....


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## kidswarrior (Jun 28, 2008)

MJS said:


> I think alot of it comes down to how someone trains something.  If all someone does is kata, never adding in any live training or perhaps working kata with a body, you probably won't get much out of it.


I think this brings up a point that we've glossed over in these many discussions of whether forms/kata are real fighting tools or just a workout or perhaps a show. Namely, what do we mean by *kata/forms*? I believe many, many MAists hear/use the word and assume it means solo practice in the air. If that's the presumptive denotation, then of course it has limited-to-no-use in defending against a true, vicious attacker.

On the other hand, if we assume the meaning of kata/forms is _inclusive _of live body/resistance training, experimentation, and even invention of applications which as exile says perhaps the original inventors may not have intended, but appear to us because we are following the principles they encoded, then that's a whole different animal than a a solo dance.

I believe until we decide which of these denotations we have in mind when we use that charged word, *kata*, we're talking about many different things and assuming they're the same, which they are not.


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## tellner (Jun 28, 2008)

exile said:


> It's important to bear in mind, always, that the decline of kata as a core teaching tool for the combat content of karate and related arts began long, long ago in Japan, with the large-size university club classes that Funakoshi started...


It's hard to overestimate the effects of Japanese social changes at the time. A couple spring to mind immediately. Japan was gearing up for militarization. Large groups of people doing the same thing in unison and unquestioning obedience were more important than personal development and deep understanding. People were moving from towns to cities. 

Then too, Karate wasn't considered a martial art in the same way as many others. That's why it thrived during the American Occupation while so many others withered and Judo and Kendo had to get quick makeovers. That perception had to have altered the way that kata was done and the way it was viewed. Kata as performance art or athletic competition fits very nicely with Karate as sport and quaint cultural practice. 





> the expat Okinawans were none too keen on teaching the Japanese the deepest technical applications of the kata movement subsequences. So the rot was setting in quite some time back. And with each generation, the loss of information increases, of course, all other things being equal....


Yes, "Okinawans and other criminals" as some Japanese at the time referred to them. There was a lot of really vicious prejudice. And the information decay goes further back. Karate had been significantly desinized (is that a real word?). Even the written name went from "Chinese boxing" to "Empty hand". How much was lost or altered there? For that matter, how much did the Okinawans get of the parent Chinese systems? It's hard to tell.


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## dancingalone (Jun 28, 2008)

> Karate had been significantly desinized (is that a real word?). Even the written name went from "Chinese boxing" to "Empty hand". How much was lost or altered there? For that matter, how much did the Okinawans get of the parent Chinese systems? It's hard to tell.



Well, I don't look on Okinawan karate as a Chinese art at all.  I know what is known as Okinawan goju-ryu today for example has significantly diverged from what Kanryu Higashionna brought back from the Fukien province of China.  And that's fine with me.  There's plenty of locks, takedowns, body conditioning, and striking to keep me busy without delving after the Crane kung fu Holy Grail many Okinawan karate enthusiasts seem to hunger for.  

Sure, there's been some knowledge lost from the transmission from China to Okinawa.  But there's also been knowledge gained and added to karate too, notably the native Ryukyu wrestling arts as well as smatterings of jujutsu added from "mainland" Japan.  Kobudo is also a huge component of the curriculum and that's largely native Okinawan in nature as I understand it.


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## Kacey (Jun 28, 2008)

MJS said:


> So very true.  I've had my share of teachers who had no idea what the kata was all about.  "Its done this way, well........because thats the way its done." was an asnwer I heard way too many times.  Fortunately, I found people who could explain and give more detail.



Indeed... there's a story that floats around the 'net that makes the same point:



> A young Jewish mother is preparing a brisket one Friday for Shabbat dinner.  Her daughter watches with interest as the mother slices off the ends of the brisket before placing it in the roasting pan. The young girl asks her mother why she does this.
> 
> The mother pauses for a moment and then says, "You know, I'm not sure.  This is the way I always saw my mother make a brisket. Let's call Grandma and ask her."
> 
> ...



You have to be willing to find out _why_ and _what_ and _how_ - some people have instructors who, like the mother in the above story, did it that way because that the way they learned it, by rote, without explanation... and only after someone went back to the beginning and asked why something was done a particular way did they know that no one knew.  The mystique in many arts prevents students from asking that key question "why", and also allows instructors to fall back on "because I said so" and/or "because that's the way I was taught".

Patterns/forms/kata/whatever you want to call it is a toolbox - the techniques contained within the patterns are tools that can be used in a wide variety of ways.  You have to be willing to experiment with them, to use them in step sparring and free sparring, and make them your own.  Too often people stick with the few techniques they know well, and that they know work for them, and never go beyond that point... leaving them predictable as fighters, a mistake that can be costly in the ring and deadly in self-defense.

Here's an exercise that addresses that:  take a movement from a pattern, any movement, one that you don't usually use, and use it in step sparring.  Use it free sparring.  Play with it, modify it, make it your own.  If you can't do that, then patterns are useless to you except as conditioning.  If you can do it, however, you have an endless supply of techniques that you can modify to meet your needs in any situation.  But you have to work for it - you can't just do the patterns and expect that, magically, the applications will come.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 30, 2008)

Em MacIntosh said:


> Katas are patterns and choreographed.


Agreed.


Em MacIntosh said:


> The bunkai is choreographed.


Couldn't disagree more.  It seems to me that those who find the most use from the study of Kata and its resulting Bunkai are the ones who see Bunkai as something that is to be discovered and experimented with.  I wouldn't find much use for Kata myself if I thought the possible applications were limited and unrealistic.

_Don Flatt


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## jkembry (Jun 30, 2008)

I personally enjoy kata and bunkai.  And while I agree they are both choreographed, for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year).  My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt.  This has help me some when we spar.


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## exile (Jun 30, 2008)

Kosho Gakkusei said:


> Couldn't disagree more.  It seems to me that those who find the most use from the study of Kata and its resulting Bunkai are the ones who see Bunkai as something that is to be discovered and experimented with.  I wouldn't find much use for Kata myself if I thought the possible applications were limited and unrealistic.
> 
> _Don Flatt



100% agreement. Real bunkai, the kind that kata were designed to be interpreted by, assumes a violent, hostile attacker whose moves cannot be predicted _unless you force them_, the way a forced mate in chess works: the opponent only has one option, and when you impose that on him, you go on to another forced-choice move, which leads inevitably to checkmate. The optimal bunkai, those explored by people like Iain Abernethy and Rick Clark (whose _75 Down Blocks_ is a revelation in this respect) are precisely those which reveal interpretations of kata moves corresponding to control over your attacker from the moment the attack is initiated, or possibly even just before.  That's bunkai as people like Choki Motobu and other karate pioneers envisaged it.



jkembry said:


> I personally enjoy kata and bunkai.  And while *I agree they are both choreographed,* for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year).  My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt.  *This has help me some when we spar.*



How could bunkai, which is the interpretation of kata _movements_ as combat _moves_ designed to damage an attacker severely enough to halt the attack, possibly be choreographed, i.e., designed in advance for enactment by two cooperative partners?? Sparring and bunkai have nothing to do with each other, just as kata has nothing to do with sport; its an instruction manual for self-defense. Only the 'standard', clichéd bunkai, which has your opponent conveniently standing there while you do some defensive move and then take your sweet time launching a counterstrike which he could easily move out of the way of&#8212;the sort of thing that Abernethy, Clark and similar karate analysts have brilliantly skewered in their books and DVDs&#8212;are choreographed. What is the point of bunkai which assumes that a violent attacker, intent on doing you harm, will cooperate with you? No bunkai that fails to assume an out-of-control, hostile assailant can possibly be worth anything, denying as it does the most basic fact of street violence: that you are dealing with someone who is trying very hard to _hurt_ you.  One of the criterion for the quality of a given bunkai analysis is precisely that it be effective _regardless_ of what your assailant wants to do. Take a look at Abernethy's discussion of bunkai for the Pinan kata set here&#8212;the articles on the Pinan kata in particular&#8212;to see the difference between 'fantasy' bunkai, ritualized, choreographed and useless,  on the one hand, and realistic bunkai on the other.


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## jkembry (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks for the link to Abernathy's site.  I shall do some reading.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 30, 2008)

jkembry said:


> I personally enjoy kata and bunkai. And while I agree they are both choreographed, for me they are great teaching tools...especially since I am relatively new (less than a year). My sensei is strict on kata, but does give leeway on bunkai so that we can adapt. This has help me some when we spar.


 
Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my last post but I don't Choreograph Bunkai practice.  I get the sense that many others here don't either.  So you can say that your approach to Bunkai is choreographed but not mine.  My approach is trial and error, brainstorm and experiment, play and vary, advance and retreat, right side-left side, slow and soft then hard and fast.

Maybe the first question we should ask next time the 'is kata useless?' question is asked should be, "How do you study the bunkai?  Is it choreographed or spontaneous?"

Let me make an analogy using musical terms.  Kata is like a musical scale or key.  Bunkai is the ability to improvise using the scale (kata).  Too many people are treating Kata like it's a classical piece of sheet music.  All they do is read the music and try to play through it.  In the end they are disappointed.  When you play through the rudiment of a scale - it's very plain and boring.  But a true muscian learns and understands the scale, assimilating it into their being and crafting the ability to improvise with it resulting in amazing music in 2 parts or possibly more parts when played over someone else's music.

_Don Flatt


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## jkembry (Jun 30, 2008)

Thanks to Exile and Kosho.

True kata is definitely choreographed...and bunkai is more experimental and improvisational than choreographed.  Perhaps I did interpret incorrectly.

Thanks again guys.


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## still learning (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello,  Kata's?    If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.

Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring?   Who do you think will win?

At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...

Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true?  ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....

I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....

Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes,  weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!

Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing?  ...We do and every thing else to survive...

One will fight the way they learn it!  ....ever being in  stress/adrenline situtions?   ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!

One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!

MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!

The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha

PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person?   it will NEVER be the same thing..

Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!!   ...not the kata's

Wrestling is the same...you learn from actual wrestling...

Same for boxing...and any fighting arts...TRUE learning comes from actual style of combat fighting...which can be done safely?


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## exile (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person?   it will NEVER be the same thing..



Unless, of course, you practice the methods contained in the kata in realistic scenarios against a noncomplaint training partner who will hurt you if you don't counter him or her using... well,  the optimal methods contained in the kata. As is advocated by every single advocate of kata as a guide to MA training. As you are overlooking, and have overlooked, in spite of the fact that it has been pointed out to you many times.



still learning said:


> Judo has a Kata for Black belt testing...but the TRUE LEARNING COMES FROM ACTUAL THROWS!!!   ...not the kata's



Yes, just like true learning of an instrumental piece of music comes from actually playing, and has _nothing_ to do with the musical score for the piece... 


I'll just leave you with the following little tip from a gentleman named Geoff Thompson, in his book _The Pavement Arena_: 

_For the karateka wishing to pursue knowledge of self defense, kata are a treasure trove of hidden techniques that can be adapted directly to a street situation... All of the skills developed by kata are necessary when street defense is called for... if you want to see them as unrealistic and impractical you will. If however you are perceptive enough to see, you will find that they offer tremendous benefits to the street-oriented.​_
(Chichester: Summersdale Publishers, 1993, p.62) And who is this chap presuming to offer this advice? Geoff Thompson is probably the most celebrated street combat expert in Britain&#8212;veteran of several hundred documented street and bar fights as bouncer, doorman and security executive for some of the roughest clubs in Coventry, whose nightclub scene is notoriously violent and dangerous&#8212;and one of the chief instructors of the British Combat Association, the premier MA association devoted to realistic training in close quarters combat, whose website makes clear just how much hard experience backs up GT's comments. 

So before you make the kind of generalizations you do in your previous posts, and many similar ones, about what people can or cannot get out of kata, still_learning, you might consider the perspective on the matter of people, like Peter Consterdine, Geoff Thompson and any number of other BCA types, _who have actually fought in brutal street combat for a good chunk of their professional lives,_ and compare their evidence base about the utility of kata as a training resource for realistic fighting techique with your own.


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## Kosho Gakkusei (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's?


Hello? Have you read the last 3 pages?  


still learning said:


> If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.


I posted on the first page about 2 of the UFC's top strikers who have trained Kata extensively.


still learning said:


> Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?


The outcome of a fight is dependant on alot of factors, the biggest being the willpower and abilities of the additional fighters.  What will the rules of the fight be? If Kickboxing or MMA perhaps the guy who did boxing exclusively would be unprepared to face being kicked by the guy who perfected his kicks practicing Kata.  Are the fighters limited to only one training tool? If the Kata guy can only do Kata which tool can the Boxing guy use? Shadow boxing? Speed Bag? Heavy Bag? Focus Mitts? or Sparring?
Now, if the tools are not limited to one but all within the art, the fighters equal in ability and heart, the trainers being the best in their respective arts, and rules are set to favor neither style and we chose to match up a Karateka against a Boxer after only one year of training... I'd say it's very likely the Boxer would win because he is more familiar with all the weapons and tools of boxing (only 5 different strikes to learn) and will probably have more experience with competing but he will not be prepared to be kicked or even hit by fists hardened by Makiwara training.  After 5 years it may be different - now the boxer must face a even more refined and crafty Karateka with a much bigger bag of tricks and hands hardened by 5 years of Makiwara training.  Now the boxer's punches will be powerful but not as damaging as bare knuckles because he will want his hands at least wrapped to keep them from breaking.

What about the historic fight between Choki Motubu who practiced Naihanchi 500 times a day and the Russian Heavyweight Boxing Champ that led to the spread of Karate to Japan?


still learning said:


> At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...


I'm not sure what you're talking about.  This statement would make sense if you had proven that Kata training useless but you haven't.


still learning said:


> Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....
> 
> I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....


You are free to beleive what you want.  So am I. We all are.  Use whatever tools you see fit.  Don't do Kata if you don't want to.  You can't learn from what you don't respect.


still learning said:


> Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!


I think Kata can teach you those things.  Read the rest of the posts on this thread other threads.


still learning said:


> Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...
> 
> One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!
> 
> One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!


Practicing Kata in this manner has been discussed.  Try reading some of the other posts on this thread.


still learning said:


> MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!


Not true.  There are those that do.  Some a part of this forum.  And even some of the top pro athletes.

_Don Flatt


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## DavidCC (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> MMA artist


 
rofl


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## The Master (Jun 30, 2008)

A most interesting piece which while entertaining, was far from enlightening, given it's prevarication and falsity.



still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.


 
You are familiar with all other sports and combat training systems, styles and methodologies then?



> Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?


 
Hand both a broom handle, or a folding chair, or a beer bottle. Now who would win?



> At one time the world was thought to be flat by the greatest minds of there time.....It was also believe the SUN goes around the earth by great minds of that times...


 
Very true. Some great minds also today believe in aliens, gods and the lost civilization of Atlantis.



> Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....


 
A statement that says "I don't believe water is hot. I must ignore the experiences and notes of others and scald myself first".



> I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....


 
I'm sorry, but could you repeat that in English please?



> Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!


 
Interesting, considering that statement shows a complete lack of understanding of what kata's are for and what they actually do instruct you in.



> Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...


 
Kino Mutai?



> One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!


 
This is almost true. One will fight how they learned. If one trains to always pull their strike, they have a high probability of pulling the strike when it counts. That however indicates poor training.



> One day you will know the meaning? ...to learn to fight is to fight to learn!


 
When one has learned it all, one will find they have learned nothing at all.



> MMA artist knows this very well and NEVER practice KATA'S (pre-set forms) like in karate!


 
MMA people reinvent the wheel and rediscover fire quite often. I've yet to see any of them invent a better wheel or hotter fire, however.



> The debate will go on for years....time will find the truths......MY opinion here.....Aloha
> 
> PS: When you practice Kata? ...and when you do the same thing against a REAL person? it will NEVER be the same thing..
> 
> ...


 
Belts are not an indication of quality, nor of excellence of fighter. They indicate a means of tracking student progress, nothing more. Kata's are a training tool, much like a bag, or gloves, or padded weapon. Properly used, it will train you. Improperly used, it will hurt, hinder and perhaps even kill you. True learning comes from an open mind, one that doesn't limit the sources of knowledge to just the tactile original experiences of the uneducated.


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## Touch Of Death (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.
> 
> Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?
> 
> ...


The ring and actual combat are two different things. Of course, if you train in a ring for a year you are going to do better in the ring. And its OK to break the Kata down and work the excercises with a partner or partners. That is why they invented the dern thing.
Sean


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## still learning (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello, Thank-you for the replies.......to agree or disagree?

TO prove that kata does work or is important part of martial arts?  ....is yet to be proven to be effective in REAL fighting?

Science has not proven effects of Kata training....?

Just because a person with lots of skills and had kata training? ...was it the kata's the made his skill better or was it the other training aids?

How much of it was Kata? ...how much was it the the other...

Self training is important....does it have to be a Kata (set pre-forms) because combintions is NOT call Kata's,  just combintions, 

The meaning of Kata is pre-set forms with specfic movements and patterns.    

Some may say combintion training is the same as Kata's.....then if it is? ...everything would be called a Kata?  is there a difference in meaning?

We believe yes....there is difference in the meaning of Kata's from everything else....

Is it a good training tool? ...yes...is it as effective on the streets for real fighting? ....debatable   

Real contact training...will always be better....

I know I cannot effective win the debate...because I myself..cannot really explain it all...just trusting my instincts and my own belief of what we found to be the truth for us....

It does snow in Hawaii.....Aloha, 

PS: NO knows what is the best martial arts to learn? ....yet each believes his will work?  ....VERBAL martial works too? ...not all the time...

Kata's will always be?  Debatable....?  that is why is always brought up time to time on every martial art sites.....

Thank-you guys....!


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## still learning (Jun 30, 2008)

Hello, I would like to be proven wrong!   Just prove it?   with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's.  Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!

Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!

You will have to know the defination of what a kata is first!

Aloha,


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, Kata's? If it work so well? ...Why is it NOT done in any other sports or combat training.


 
Haven't we been down this road before in other threads??  Let me ask you this...MMA fighters don't train with blades, yet you see thousands of people flocking to MMA gyms.  



> Take one person who practice Kata for a year...and one person who boxes for year and put them in the ring? Who do you think will win?


 
I don't know why I'm replying, but I may as well continue.  As I've said a number of times in the past, its all how the person trains and applies the kata.  Kata is not done during a fight like its done during training.  You need to extract the moves you intend on using at the time.  Hmm...and just this past Thursday during class, we took the first few moves of a kata, and while making some slight modifications, but still keeping with the general idea of the kata, came up with a number of various applications.  But, if that is something that you dont do, then you will not get much out of it, nor will you really be any good at it.  If someone does it on a regular basis, they'll stand a much better chance.




> Today many believe Kata's is MUST learn tool......WHY today many are starting believe this is NOT true? ....trust your own instincts of what works and NOT work.....


 
As I've said a number of times before, but was obviously missed, kata is just one part of the puzzle.  You still need to do other things as well.



> I too use to believe it was a must learn the Kata's to be good fighter? ...our Sensi's believe it and force us to believe it ...in time one learns the truth of their own training....


 
Of course, part of understanding kata, is being able to have a teacher who a) understands it himself, and b) is able to teach it properly.



> Fighting on the streets has NO patterns or forms...it is fast, chaos,NO rules,anything goes, weapons or anything around you can be use for defence and attacking tools....KATA"S do not teach you those things!


 
This is where you are wrong.  You should be able to pull out any part of a kata, that is applicable to what is presented to you at the time.  So yes, kata does teach those things to you!



> Learn bad habits? ....will get you kill or injury....who teaches biteing? ...We do and every thing else to survive...
> 
> One will fight the way they learn it! ....ever being in stress/adrenline situtions? ....and ...was able to be in control of one self (calm thinking)...NOT!
> 
> ...


 
The problem is, is that you come on here, and preach the same thing, only to be proven wrong time and time again.  We've offered suggestions to help you learn and understand the kata, yet you fail to do it.  Part of learning, is wanting to accept what is being taught.

Mike


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## MJS (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, I would like to be proven wrong! Just prove it? with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's. Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!
> 
> Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!
> 
> ...


 
If you read thru these very posts, people are proving you wrong.  It seems apparent to me at least, that you are in this mindset, that you think that in order to use kata, it must be done EXACTLY the way its taught.  That is not the case at all.  Once again, just like with your other empty hand SD techs., you use from the kata, what is applicable at the time.


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## jks9199 (Jun 30, 2008)

still learning said:


> Hello, I would like to be proven wrong!   Just prove it?   with facts and studies, not hear says....with data's.  Actual testing Kata's effectiveness!
> 
> Make us NON-believer's, believers of Kata training!
> 
> ...


Deja vu...

I've seen this before...

Over and over again

Deja vu...

Oh well... let's try it again.

Kata and traditional martial arts training are often (but neither exclusively nor automatically) expressly designed and intended to convey tools for handling real world violence.  But your training must be focused on preparing for those realities, or you're simply moving your arms and legs around.

Have we , :hb: and :deadhorse enough?


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## YoungMan (Jun 30, 2008)

An important benefit of forms practice:
Have you ever seen an MMA fighter doing his thing at the age of 50 or beyond? It might be possible, but it can't happen very often. 
There are, however, countless MA students practicing forms at 50, 60, and beyond. You won't be getting into a ring at age 60, but you can still do forms.


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## kidswarrior (Jun 30, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Kata and traditional martial arts training are often (but neither exclusively nor automatically) expressly designed and intended to convey tools for handling real world violence.  But your training must be focused on preparing for those realities, or you're simply moving your arms and legs around.


Why couldn't I have said it like that?  Must be the gazillion reports you've had to do?



> Have we , :hb: and :deadhorse enough?


I have. Let's call it a day.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 1, 2008)

YoungMan said:


> An important benefit of forms practice:
> Have you ever seen an MMA fighter doing his thing at the age of 50 or beyond? It might be possible, but it can't happen very often.


And why would any of us who are 50 or 60 even want to? :mst:


> There are, however, countless MA students practicing forms at 50, 60, and beyond. *You won't be getting into a ring at age 60, but you can still do forms.*


And win SD confrontations. Like the formidable Ark Wong said, if it isn't over in three moves (not three _rounds_ ), step back and see what you're doing wrong.


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## chinto (Jul 2, 2008)

exile said:


> I agree with chinto: it's all there. But... and it's a big one... you aren't going to benefit from it unless (i) you learn to read the kata in a way that lets you see the hard, practical combat applications that were intended (and maybe some good ones that _weren't_) and (ii) you train these applications in a dedicated way. That doesn't mean rote practice of the kata so that you have a beautifully choreographed martial dance at the end. It means, you make shrewd deductions about what martial _moves_ the _movements_ in the kata are instructing you to carry out, and you find a training partner who will carry out attack initiations on you that that sequence of moves you discovered was designed to counter. And your training partner had better be trying fairly hard to make contact with you. A compliant training partner is doing you no favors.
> 
> Think of the kata, or similar patterns in other MAs, as something like the score of a concerto by a great composer. The beauty of the piece is there, and the information on how to get it and make it visible. But you need to do two things in order to get there: first, you need to learn to read music. Second, once you understand the notes you're supposed to play, you need to practice your part as though you were involved in a real performance, every time you practice. A kata is the 'score' of a set of effective self defense scenarios, but the same requirements have to be met as with the musical score, if you want to derive the benefit of the kata. There's no other way to do it.


I agree! you must learn to see what possibility's are there.  to think in terms of grabs and grapples, as well as punch and kicks.. in terms of locks and throws, and in terms of brakes and even lethal techniques that are there. some obvious, and some not so  much so!


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