# If attacked, should you finish the job?  Why or why not?



## Lynne

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job.  If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking _him_ in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm.  To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike.  I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck.  The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin.  He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang.  We have to walk down an alley.  Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me.  He wanted money.  Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching.  Heads up!  He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.

The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night.  One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley.  But they can't be there all the time.  In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently.  She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.

Oh, we have to pass a bar.  Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out.  The other night there were 6 women being rowdy.  I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo.  You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"


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## tshadowchaser

is anyone around to testify against me in court?


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## Nolerama

tshadowchaser said:


> is anyone around to testify against me in court?



Heck yeah. I don't want some punk suing me.

Also, in a SD situation, isn't getting away the whole point? I'd take off after taking out the guy.

Multiple attackers? Yeah. I'd "finish the job." That is, if I have the opportunity to take them on one by one.


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## stickarts

Lynne said:


> I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking _him_ in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.
> 
> The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.
> 
> I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang. We have to walk down an alley. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. He wanted money. Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching. Heads up! He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.
> 
> The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night. One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley. But they can't be there all the time. In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently. She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.
> 
> Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.
> 
> Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"


 
In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.


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## bluemtn

tshadowchaser said:


> is anyone around to testify against me in court?


 

I'm with him.  I'll do what is needed to get away safely, and be very quick about getting away.  Preferrably before they get to recover.


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## harlan

I'm kinda curious about who is giving you this advice? Not that my opinion matters, but I happen to think it's awful advice. Very optimistic...as if an opportunity should occur. This is my thinking: if it's life and death...choose life. If it's whack him with a shovel when he is weaponless and on the ground...that is murder.



Lynne said:


> Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"


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## morph4me

stickarts said:


> In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.


 
I agree, the job is finished when the attacker can no longer attack. Finsihing the job doesn't have to be permanent but it should be decisive.


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## Lynne

stickarts said:


> In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.


 Hopefully, I would be able to think in such a situation but I think adrenaline would take over.  I don't know what I would do.  I guess there is no way to know.

When I was told we should finish the job, I'm not sure if that meant to kill the person, or to make it such that the aggressor could not get up and come after the victim.

This is an example of a self-defense drill we do.  The aggressor grabs me in a bear hug.  I strike his groin or pinch the soft tissue on the inner thigh, drop down on my bottom, spread my legs, and pull him over my head.  Then quickly get up and batter his face.  Lastly, lay across his chest, get the arm in a four-square and break the arm.  I suppose the battering to the face might kill the person.  If I were to do that, I'd likely stomp the face with my foot...and run.

The other defense drills haven't gone that far yet.  Bear hug - groin strike, elbow, elbow, turn and punch.  If you had the composure, I guess you could keep pummeling the groin and face, whatever is accessible.  But when do you stop?  After they are unconscious?  Edit:  morphe4me answered the question about stopping.


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## MA-Caver

Lynne said:


> I've been told if attacked, to finish the job.  If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking _him_ in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm.  To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike.  I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck.  The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.
> 
> The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin.  He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.
> 
> I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang.  We have to walk down an alley.  Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me.  He wanted money.  Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching.  Heads up!  He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.
> 
> The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night.  One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley.  But they can't be there all the time.  In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently.  She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.
> 
> Oh, we have to pass a bar.  Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out.  The other night there were 6 women being rowdy.  I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo.  You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.
> 
> Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"



This is the point I think Si-Je was trying to make in her thread http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65276 about pressing the attack/defense. But she was argued out by those of us (myself included  ) who said it's better to take off once the attacker is down and the opportunity is there to run. 
As a trained martialist you have a better chance to really hurt your attacker than the average woman who perhaps took one or two SD classes and hasn't really worked on her personal strength training regime. 
I learned from a Kenpoist (EPAK more specifically) that Parker designed his techniques so that a combination of punches, kicks, etc. will totally disable an attacker to where one would conceivably just be able to walk rather than run away. He used the paper-clip bending analogy of when you constantly bend a paper-clip back and forth it'll break and become useless. 
Now I'm all for that any day of the week. But this would be from a trained MA-ist. 
And agreed if there are multiple attackers then yes, absolutely finish the job and then get the hell out of there. Hurting one and then turning to hurt the other gives the first one time to recover and that won't be good. 

Lynne, first of all put faith in your training to help you should you need it. 
Second, your situational awareness seems very right on track. But think about maybe changing out of your school t-shirt and "covering" the school logo on your duffel if you feel that it will cause you a fight "just for the hell of it". Otherwise don't sweat it. Ignore the cat-calls and if they press well you could (if you're feeling confident enough) turn around, drop the bag on the ground as if "SIGH, okay gotta kick some *** here, lets get it over with" get into a stance and tell the ladies (in that bored tired voice), "well, c'mon, I don't have all night"... *maybe* they'll think twice and leave you alone. :lol: After all... better to be _thought_ of as crazy... than proven right. 

But you can I think and have rights to do so... ask for an escort to the cars for those who feel threatened. Yes I recall that you have an officer or something that comes by but if they're called away ... well. Two MA-ists are better than one eh? Or go in a group and ensure the cars are parked close together. 

The escort thing doesn't have to go on forever either. A few months each night of school and predators who lie and wait and watch will get the message that there are easier prey out there somewhere else.  They're opportunists and will usually always go for the easiest one. Because, *they* don't want to get hurt... any more than you do.



Lynne said:


> Hopefully, I would be able to think in such a situation but I think adrenaline would take over. I don't know what I would do. I guess there is no way to know.
> 
> When I was told we should finish the job, I'm not sure if that meant to kill the person, or to make it such *that the aggressor could not get up and come after the victim.*


It means that exactly I'm sure. Nobody _wants_ to kill... nobody decent that is. 



Lynne said:


> This is an example of a self-defense drill we do. The aggressor grabs me in a bear hug. I strike his groin or pinch the soft tissue on the inner thigh, drop down on my bottom, spread my legs, and pull him over my head. Then quickly get up and batter his face. Lastly, lay across his chest, get the arm in a four-square and break the arm. I suppose the battering to the face might kill the person. If I were to do that, I'd likely stomp the face with my foot...and run.
> 
> The other defense drills haven't gone that far yet. Bear hug - groin strike, elbow, elbow, turn and punch. If you had the composure, I guess you could keep pummeling the groin and face, whatever is accessible. But when do you stop? After they are unconscious? Edit: morphe4me answered the question about stopping.


Battering to the face won't likely kill a person... ever watch a boxing match... or even Rocky? :wink1: They just won't look as pretty for a while.


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## Lynne

harlan said:


> I'm kinda curious about who is giving you this advice? Not that my opinion matters, but I happen to think it's awful advice. Very optimistic...as if an opportunity should occur. This is my thinking: if it's life and death...choose life. If it's whack him with a shovel when he is weaponless and on the ground...that is murder.


 I am thinking that the advice meant to disable the person so that they cannot get up and come after you.  I think that's what was meant   Maybe it was do what you have to do to survive.

I will say that the addressor appeared to be directing his comments to the women in particular.  I can understand his concern.


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## jkembry

stickarts said:


> In my view it depends what is meant by finish the job. Enough needs to be done to ensure your safety, however legally and morally I think the least amount of force should be used to ensure your safety and the punishment should fit the crime.




Ditto....beat me to the punch--so to speak.


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## MBuzzy

Here is the key to me....You must stop before or when you become the attacker.  When you have changed the tide of the attack so that you are on the offense, that is the time to break off and run.

e.g. if I disarm someone who has a gun, then turn around and shoot them, I murdered them.  If I am wrestling with them and the gun acidentally goes off before I've disarmed them and shoots them, its Self Defense.  Fine line....but in one situation, I've become the attacker.

If you hit them, put them down, then jump on top and perform 3 more moves to hurt and disable them....a court would probably find you guilty.  You've then become the attacker.  It is a fine line and a tough question...but you have to remember that the first priority is to get away.  Worry about YOUR safety, if the concern is tear off an arm so that they "can never do this to another person again" well....you are probably the attacker at that point.

btw - Thanks for starting the new thread!  Good call!


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## Lynne

MA-Caver said:


> Battering to the face won't likely kill a person... ever watch a boxing match... or even Rocky? :wink1: They just won't look as pretty for a while.


 I was thinking about the skull being crushed or bones/cartilage going into the brain.  Maybe one less thing to worry about.  Another one of those kill myths or something that everyone gets so tired of hearing about.  Maybe there's a super secret pressure point right under the tip of the nose but just to the right.


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## Lynne

MBuzzy said:


> Here is the key to me....You must stop before or when you become the attacker. When you have changed the tide of the attack so that you are on the offense, that is the time to break off and run.
> 
> e.g. if I disarm someone who has a gun, then turn around and shoot them, I murdered them. If I am wrestling with them and the gun acidentally goes off before I've disarmed them and shoots them, its Self Defense. Fine line....but in one situation, I've become the attacker.
> 
> If you hit them, put them down, then jump on top and perform 3 more moves to hurt and disable them....a court would probably find you guilty. You've then become the attacker. It is a fine line and a tough question...but you have to remember that the first priority is to get away. Worry about YOUR safety, if the concern is tear off an arm so that they "can never do this to another person again" well....you are probably the attacker at that point.
> 
> btw - Thanks for starting the new thread! Good call!


 I can only imagine myself acting in a murderous manner in two situations:   someone was trying to seriously hurt my daughter or my husband.  Ok, maybe my dog, too. What I mean is I would do whatever necessary to stop them.  I sure don't train my mind to think in murderous ways.  I don't believe that normal human beings do.


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## harlan

Ditto. Today is the one year anniversary of one of the most heinous crimes committed in this region. A wife, and her two daughters murdered in Connecticut last year. Horrible. The poor woman was driven to the bank to withdraw her money, while her daughters were in the hands of another assailant at home. At the time, all I could think of was, 'why didn't she kill her abductor?'  She went into the bank, even notified the tellers to have the police go to her home...and then got back into the car. Even now...I shouldn't secondguess the poor woman...but I would have left the bank with a letter opener...something...anything...knowing my children were in the hands of bad guys.

In that situation...yes...I would 'finish the job.'


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## terryl965

My feeling is like this and this is how I explain woman self defense from an attacker, first rule of thumb get them to the ground as quick as possible and get out of there a s well. Since you are in that area alot have you seen to which way an attack can come from and where is your nearest avenue to get the hell out of there. Lastly if the attacker bgets back up from a goin shot then you did not do your job right and pulled the kick, remember to do damage is one of the biggest propblems people have when confronted in a real life stituation, I know if my wife did a full on kick in the going cup od not he is down for a good thirtyu seconds plenty of time to get away if you are level headed. This is why it is always so important to know your surrounding at all times, be aware of what and who is around you and see what others do not.

We take a group out to Wst end on the weekends to observe the surrounding and see if they saw what we the instructor saw and it helps you reach that sense of awareness as if it was another reaction to an action.


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## Lynne

terryl965 said:


> My feeling is like this and this is how I explain woman self defense from an attacker, first rule of thumb get them to the ground as quick as possible and get out of there a s well. Since you are in that area alot have you seen to which way an attack can come from and where is your nearest avenue to get the hell out of there. Lastly if the attacker bgets back up from a goin shot then you did not do your job right and pulled the kick, remember to do damage is one of the biggest propblems people have when confronted in a real life stituation, I know if my wife did a full on kick in the going cup od not he is down for a good thirtyu seconds plenty of time to get away if you are level headed. This is why it is always so important to know your surrounding at all times, be aware of what and who is around you and see what others do not.
> 
> We take a group out to Wst end on the weekends to observe the surrounding and see if they saw what we the instructor saw and it helps you reach that sense of awareness as if it was another reaction to an action.


 There is one parking lot I park in that's between two buildings.  One side is the alley, the other side is a busy street.  The day the guy asked for 84 cents, I was parked in the lot between the buildings. It's only a short distance to the street.  (Our dojang has a front entrance on that busy street but parking is limited parallel parking so I never park out front.)  Now if he chased and I ran, it would be bad news to run into the alley or the large parking lots on the other side.  It would be better to confront him or run around and run toward the street. 

We need to have that situational awareness. The other female I spoke of was followed in the alley for awhile before the guy asked her for money.  But she knew she was being followed.  He gave off the no-good vibes.  By the description, he sounds like the same guy that had the gall to stop my car, too.

Sometimes I have to park in the larger lots.  The good news is that there are some streetlights.  The bad news is that I have to walk further, much further.  I've actually thought about putting a dumbbell or brick in the bottom of my sparring bag.

I got what you said about getting them on the ground as quick as possible and then getting out


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## SamT

I'll jump in and quote my instructor, who was a body guard for 20 some years.

"My goal is to keep myself alive. If just a joint lock is going to show them who's in control, I'll just use a joint lock. I only go as far as needed." His joint lock example is a bar room brawl, though he has been attacked in the street as a part of his job. He's told me that the only time he'd kill someone is if it's absolutely necessary.

Fortunately, most of the time an attacker can be disabled easily, and then you can get away. Let fools be heroes.


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## morph4me

Lynne said:


> I can only imagine myself acting in a murderous manner in two situations: someone was trying to seriously hurt my daughter or my husband. Ok, maybe my dog, too. What I mean is I would do whatever necessary to stop them. I sure don't train my mind to think in murderous ways. I don't believe that normal human beings do.


 
You might want to consider a third situation, you won't be able to help your daughter or your husband if you get seriously hurt, so you might add yourself to that list.


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## celtic_crippler

Do what you need to do to feel safe enough to escape the situation. 

If that involves a simple kick to the groin, then you're lucky. Kicks to the groin of a "jacked up" individual may not be as effective due to endorphins, adrenaline, drugs, etc....so you have to be moving to follow up or else give them another opportunity to attack again. You may have to do more....

....cool thing is, if you've practiced and trained hard, then you won't likely even realize what you've done to an attacker until you're giving the police a report and have to "think" about it.


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## Kacey

First, since you are aware of this situation, take preventative steps; don't go out to your car alone; see if extra lighting can be provided, or possibly even cameras or other deterrents.

Second, I agree with those who say do as much as needed to get the person off you and unable to follow (or at least unable to follow more quickly than you can leave) and then run, screaming loudly.  People who attack you do not want attention called to the fact; they want to mug and/or rape you quickly and get away - screaming will prevent that.

Third, remember that every situation is different.  No advice you are given will be able to cover every eventuality, and as long as you, and whomever you are protecting, emerge reasonably unhurt, the method you use doesn't matter - it's the results that are important.


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## mook jong man

If possible stun and run !


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## Andy Moynihan

Same thing applies to defending yourself unarmed as to doing so with a firearm.

There is no "Shooting to kill" and there is no "Shooting to wound", there is *ONLY*  *Shooting to stop.* How do you know when you've stopped them? Why, when they have STOPPED, of course.

I've punched someone and they cease aggressing and/or run? No more is needed. I hit something painful and get away? Okay. Have I knocked them out or thrown them down and they have *stopped*? There ya go. Down, but attempting to get away? They've stopped being a threat. Down and attempting to rise in *MY* direction? *shrug* It's the steel toe solution for 'em, then, before they can continue to attack.

How do you know when you've done enough to stop a threat? When they have STOPPED.


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## Sukerkin

Lynne said:


> I was thinking about the skull being crushed or bones/cartilage going into the brain. Maybe one less thing to worry about. Another one of those kill myths or something that everyone gets so tired of hearing about. Maybe there's a super secret pressure point right under the tip of the nose but just to the right.


 
This is a point that I think gets dangerously dismissed every time a conversation like this comes along.  

All it takes to kill someone, anyone, no matter how big, strong or trained, is one hit to the head.

Yes, it's a fluke event but I don't know how unlikely it is and I'm not willing to take the risk.

It's not accidental that when I had to fight for real I did severe but deliberately targeted damage to my attackers.  No strikes to the head, throat or heart and only a couple of very quick techniques.  I still feel guilty to this day about the leg break because it came from the side - granted it was the angle I had but I wish it otherwise.

It is your responsibility to defend yourself if attacked - it is not your responsibility to 'punish' your attackers.  Do what you need to do to escape; more than that is a compromise of the principles we should be learning along with the physical techniques.


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Do what you got to do. Life and death has no rules the street has no rules do what you have to do and not anymore than that.


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## Kreth

Two thoughts:

I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.


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## MA-Caver

Kreth said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
> I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.


On the bearhug I think it's true that a bigger attacker (even by about 75 pounds) will probably pick up the person/woman and carry her into a wall or the car and try to knock the breath out of them or hit their head to stun them or as you say throw them off balance so they can land on top of them for the same reasons. 
Caving and Martial Arts have taught me a sense of balance against "forward falls". One of my legs will automatically go forward to arrest my forward momentum and roll at the same time so that I'll either land on my side or on my back. However with a heavy weight on my back (attacker or back-pack) this is and isn't a good idea. Unless your hip and knee joints are strong you could blow them out and it'd be painful, but if they are, then that sudden stop to forward momentum plus a downward shoulder roll to the ground will put you on your side/back and the attacker/pack takes most of the brunt of the fall. From there it's elbows to the ribs and backwards head butt to hit the nose or chin or mouth... maybe take out a couple of teeth. 
If the bear hug doesn't go to ground just yet then raking the shin can work... along with other techniques. 

The groin kick is also a target of opportunity rather a catch-all defense. Most (street) attackers (when you think about it for a moment) may have blown out their knees in high school football/basketball games/practices. I say this because some of the "street people" I knew used to talk about their glory days playing football or basketball or whatever sport that they excelled in during school and could've been chosen for a scholarship which would've lead them to the pros and bla bla bla until a knee (or other) injury killed the dream and they can't play anymore. Subsequent drug use/alcoholism and general laziness brings them down to the animal-mentality level of attacking people to get what they want. This was quite a few fellas that I (used to) know. 
So I think using the knee as a target may produce better results from a (hard) sidelong kick. Either that or the shins the same way. Taking out their ability to get back up and chase you helps in the get-away. Alibet the knee is just a difficult target as the groin but probably more effective even if they don't feel pain, if that joint is knocked out (again) they're not getting back up easy.


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## Touch Of Death

Creating time to get away, is finishing the job.
sean


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## GBlues

Here's the first thing that I would do. I would see if I couldn't find another school, that is maybe in a safe neighborhood. If not, you probably like me were told by your parents don't take short cuts, don't walk down dark alleys etc...

Second I was actually asked this question by a young man about 2 years ago. Three guys were talking trash to him and he got out of his car and got the crap kicked out of him and he asked what I would have done. First not gotten out of the car, if not in a car and it's multiple attackers I'd try to run. If I can't run someone *is *going to die if at all possible. Because here is the simple fact of the matter. One on one that's assault, two or more on one, and it is assault with the intent to kill or do serious bodily injury. Doesn't take 2 or 3 guys or more, to stomp somebody only one.

You do not under any circumstance try to provoke a fight. Once you have done that now you are the aggressor even if it makes you look crazy even if it works. More than likely though you'll have multiple opponents now wanting to stomp a mudhole in ya. You avoid confrontation if at all possible.

When you see trouble coming you walk across the street, but when it follows you.....* It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!*

Now finishing the job can mean alot of things. IT can mean hurting them so that you can run away. Or it might mean that you stomp them until they are begging you to stop they are swearing on there mothers grave that they will never mess with you again. Or it means that they are not moving. One on one this is the case. More than one follow the bold print above.

Respectfully,
Nicholas


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## kailat

There is a simple rule to the streets.  DON'T be a victim.  SURVIVE at all cost.  You execute each and every move as if its meant to maim, harm or kill.  If your attacked you must and you have to defend yourself.  Do not be a coward and stand your ground.  You fight till you feel you are safe enough to flee to get help.   A warrior does not back down, a warrior does not fear!  

 If approached in the alley or around the vacinity, you need to use caution and act appropriatley.  Carry mace, carry a self defense tool.  I bought my girlfriend a cool toy.  It looks like a cat, w/ 2 finger holes where the eyes are .  The ears are sharp and when you put your fingers in it, the ears are punching toolls.  Its awesome for womens self defense.

 You should not live in fear, yet also you should not live in such a position where your paranoid about every one you meet or come accross either.  Usually a sighn of intelligence and politeness usually will get you a long way.   However, do not let your guard down and walk tall, chin up and chest out.  walk and carry yourself w/ pride and dignity this signifies strength.  Most people seethis and does not attempt to mess w/ these individuals.  Simple body language is sometimes a great tool all in itself.

 TRAIN HARD, because you fight how you train.. if you train weak, you'll fight weak. Train like a warrior, you'll fight like a warrior


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## Senjojutsu

No one who knows me would ever accuse me of being a bleeding-heart liberal!


However since this type of question is always getting repackaged on these message boards, I would say to all the keyboard warriors out there I have updated my response to the new reality of modern living:

*Always assume you are being taped on video. *

Yes, in the UK it is by Big Brother, in the USA it is probably via the thousands of existing private security cams throughout the land of the free - or via a passer-bys cell phone/camcorder.

So your self-defense actions are can analyzed over and over for years to come  just as the police force used on the Rodney King video.

I cringe at the thought of (legally) justifying some of the American Kenpo techniques I was taught back in the day  finishing techniques on a prostrate opponent.

I am not saying this is fair.

I am just repeating what several have already said here  if it gets physical - knock him down quickly and escape ASAP!!!

and hope they photographed you from your good side.
:uhyeah:


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## MA-Caver

Senjojutsu said:


> No one who knows me would ever accuse me of being a bleeding-heart liberal!
> 
> 
> However since this type of question is always getting repackaged on these message boards, I would say to all the keyboard warriors out there I have updated my response to the new reality of modern living:
> 
> *Always assume you are being taped on video. *
> 
> Yes, in the UK it is by Big Brother, in the USA it is probably via the thousands of existing private security cams throughout the land of the free - or via a passer-bys cell phone/camcorder.
> 
> So your self-defense actions are can analyzed over and over for years to come  just as the police force used on the Rodney King video.
> 
> I cringe at the thought of (legally) justifying some of the American Kenpo techniques I was taught back in the day  finishing techniques on a prostrate opponent.
> 
> I am not saying this is fair.
> 
> I am just repeating what several have already said here  if it gets physical - knock him down quickly and escape ASAP!!!
> 
> and hope they photographed you from your good side.
> :uhyeah:


Very good point. You'd think that now-a-days nobody is watching. Before the advent of digital technology the chances of being "filmed" were remote. 
Yet a person's body language can reveal much. Holding ones hands up if confronted to say "I'm the victim here, I'm afraid of my life, don't hurt me" then hopefully that gets imprinted on the jury's brain and they'll discuss that while sequestered for deliberation. But that's a hope not a fact. 

Whatever moves you make to defend yourself. Make 'em good so they'll be impressive on You Tube. But yeah do 'em and get the hell outta there.


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## Lynne

Yesterday, Saturday, I stopped by the dojang to drop off my daughter's tuition check.  It was around 12:30 pm.  I parked between two buildings again.  I saw yet another creepy-looking guy walking down the alley, then he headed into the larger parking lots.  He was staring at me; he had his head cranked around and it was obvious. I made eye contact with him to let him know I saw him - not sure if that was a good idea or not but I didn't want him to think he could sneak up on me.   I decided to use the front doors of the dojang along the main street instead of using the back doors opening to the alley.

One of my instructors was working behind the counter and I mentioned there was another creepy guy.  He asked for a description and said, "He's a pretty nice guy unless you make him mad.  He has mental problems."


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## Andy Moynihan

Lynne said:


> Yesterday, Saturday, I stopped by the dojang to drop off my daughter's tuition check. It was around 12:30 pm. I parked between two buildings again. I saw yet another creepy-looking guy walking down the alley, then he headed into the larger parking lots. He was staring at me; he had his head cranked around and it was obvious. I made eye contact with him to let him know I saw him - not sure if that was a good idea or not but I didn't want him to think he could sneak up on me. I decided to use the front doors of the dojang along the main street instead of using the back doors opening to the alley.
> 
> One of my instructors was working behind the counter and I mentioned there was another creepy guy. He asked for a description and said, "He's a pretty nice guy unless you make him mad. He has mental problems."


 
If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors


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## kailat

ya, I agree.  Either you need to find another school if your not comfortable w/ the location of that one.  And or if you plan on staying there and living in paranoia going to and from the dojang.  BUY A SMALL CALIBER HAND GUN!!   Or a large calibur one!!  : ) which ever suites your needs I guess.  Carry mace or something... I couldn't imagine having to be paranoid someone is going to attack me each and every time i go to and from a place i go  to study self defense.    BUY SOME GOOD OC SPRAY, carry it in hand as you go to and from... that is the safest bet...


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## matt.m

I agree.  I walk with a cane and 2 leg braces.  If I have to defend myself then I will.  However, a point that has been very prevelant is "Do not become the attacker."

For instance......about 20 yrs. ago after a hapkido class we were all eating pizza like wild animals.  A big football player for the local university says to my dad the following....."Why don't we fight now."  Dad replies with "Hit me."  The fella said "Let's go outside."  Dad refused.

His reasoning was that if he, the hapkido instructor went outside with the jackass he would be perceived as the aggressor.

I will use an example of my own....I was jumped by my neighbor.  I hit him hard enough to do a lot of damage.  However, I called the police when he was unconsious.  It only took one hit, a soloplex shot. 

If I would have kept going I would have been the attacker.  There are a couple of women who instruct at our school.  One has bad joints and the other is gun shy of violence, for good reason.  Our school isn't in a bad part of the city but not too far from.  So a male always makes sure the ladies get in their cars before leaving.  Try and be accompanied at all times considering you are going down an alley.


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## Lynne

Andy Moynihan said:


> If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors


 There are vagrants in the area.  The instructors do work with the police.  They've asked them to patrol the area, especially the alley.

To tell you the truth, I know of two that actually came into the dojang. They were physically escorted out by one of the instructors and another student.


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## terryl965

Lynne said:


> There are vagrants in the area. The instructors do work with the police. They've asked them to patrol the area, especially the alley.
> 
> To tell you the truth, I know of two that actually came into the dojang. They were physically escorted out by one of the instructors and another student.


 
At the very least the instructors should be asking other BB or male students to walk out with the lady's. I know I would if my school was having some of these problems.


----------



## Lynne

kailat said:


> ya, I agree. Either you need to find another school if your not comfortable w/ the location of that one. And or if you plan on staying there and living in paranoia going to and from the dojang. BUY A SMALL CALIBER HAND GUN!! Or a large calibur one!! : ) which ever suites your needs I guess. Carry mace or something... I couldn't imagine having to be paranoid someone is going to attack me each and every time i go to and from a place i go to study self defense. BUY SOME GOOD OC SPRAY, carry it in hand as you go to and from... that is the safest bet...


 I'm not sure if any sprays are legal in NY.  I don't think mace is legal.  As far as a handgun, I'd never take one into the dojang.  We have children waiting for their parents to finish class.  We do have lockers but accidents can happen. (I doubt my sa ba nim would allow me to bring a gun into the dojang.)  I definitely see your point.

I do think seeing three kooks and/or criminals in 6 weeks is too much too.

The area is so nice during the day - art gallery, florist, wedding gown shop, antiques, restaurants.  There is an adult bookstore about a block down though and there are some bars however.  I noticed the gangsta types have arrived on the scene.  There seems to be a lot of people walking around and muttering to themselves.

I think one change I'm going to make is to go in through the front door versus the alley.  People stand in front of the bar and the guy who asked for 84 cents came from street direction but it's got to be safer.


----------



## jks9199

Lynne said:


> I've been told if attacked, to finish the job.  If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking _him_ in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm.  To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike.  I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck.  The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.
> 
> The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin.  He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.
> 
> I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang.  We have to walk down an alley.  Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me.  He wanted money.  Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching.  Heads up!  He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.
> 
> The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night.  One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley.  But they can't be there all the time.  In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently.  She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.
> 
> Oh, we have to pass a bar.  Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out.  The other night there were 6 women being rowdy.  I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo.  You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.
> 
> Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"


I'm seeing two issues in this thread.  The first is the general "how much is too much self defense?"  The second is the specific "how does Lynne get to and from the school safely?"

Starting with the specific -- I think that the school needs to accept some responsibility.  Whether it's a policy that nobody walks to their car alone (either staff accompanies or groups of students travel together) or coordinating with the neighborhood business and local police to set up an ACTIVE and VISIBLE neighborhood watch or even contracting a guard service...  any business has to make it possible for it's customers to get there and leave in reasonable safety.  It may not be the best part of town -- but that's no reason for the businesses in the area to tolerate conditions that threaten their clientele.

More generally, self defense consists of stopping the initial attack, doing enough to deter further attack while allowing you to get away.  It's not trying to hold the attacker for the police; it's not trying to kill the attacker...  It's simply stopping the threat so you can get away or get help.  You should practice realistically going to different extents, and choosing how much is necessary under safer conditions so that you can do it in the real world.

There are plenty of threads about this in the General Self Defense area; I'm not going to rehash all of them.  I will note that the "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is a nifty sound bite -- but I'd rather be right and not tried at all.  Legal defense is not cheap...


----------



## Lynne

jks9199 said:


> I'm seeing two issues in this thread. The first is the general "how much is too much self defense?" The second is the specific "how does Lynne get to and from the school safely?"
> 
> Starting with the specific -- I think that the school needs to accept some responsibility. Whether it's a policy that nobody walks to their car alone (either staff accompanies or groups of students travel together) or coordinating with the neighborhood business and local police to set up an ACTIVE and VISIBLE neighborhood watch or even contracting a guard service... any business has to make it possible for it's customers to get there and leave in reasonable safety. It may not be the best part of town -- but that's no reason for the businesses in the area to tolerate conditions that threaten their clientele.
> 
> More generally, self defense consists of stopping the initial attack, doing enough to deter further attack while allowing you to get away. It's not trying to hold the attacker for the police; it's not trying to kill the attacker... It's simply stopping the threat so you can get away or get help. You should practice realistically going to different extents, and choosing how much is necessary under safer conditions so that you can do it in the real world.
> 
> There are plenty of threads about this in the General Self Defense area; I'm not going to rehash all of them. I will note that the "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is a nifty sound bite -- but I'd rather be right and not tried at all. Legal defense is not cheap...


 It's interesting what you say, JKS, about not holding the attacker for the police.  My husband and I had discussed this issue and he thought that one should try to hold the attacker for the police after disabling the attacker.  I think a lot of people think that's the way to go.  They are probably thinking citizen's arrest. Personally, I would not.  If I were lucky enough to get someone on the ground, I wouldn't be fishing around for plastic ties.  I'd run and call 911 from somewhere.

What you say about legal defense is something to keep in mind as well.  I suppose know one knows what they would do in a situation if attacked but training the mind comes into play, too.  I think about getting loose if I'm grabbed and then running, not smashing the throat and breaking bones.


----------



## Empty Hands

Andy Moynihan said:


> If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors



There's really nothing they could (legally) do.  If the guy hasn't done anything overt, all you can do is call the police.  They'll move the guy along, and he'll be back in an hour or a day.


----------



## SamT

Kreth said:


> Two thoughts:
> 
> I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
> I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.


1. We're taught to just relax and loosen up, most people then can't hold on. Your body stiffens up when you're grabbed, and then when you immediately just become a piece of wet spaghetti, you most often slide out. From there, you can do a groin stroke or something along those lines, and then get away.

2. Only use that when the situation presents itself, just like every other strike.


----------



## Touch Of Death

Andy Moynihan said:


> If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors


What is he supposed to do? Beat up that poor homeless guy?
Sean


----------



## jks9199

Lynne said:


> It's interesting what you say, JKS, about not holding the attacker for the police.  My husband and I had discussed this issue and he thought that one should try to hold the attacker for the police after disabling the attacker.  I think a lot of people think that's the way to go.  They are probably thinking citizen's arrest. Personally, I would not.  If I were lucky enough to get someone on the ground, I wouldn't be fishing around for plastic ties.  I'd run and call 911 from somewhere.
> 
> What you say about legal defense is something to keep in mind as well.  I suppose know one knows what they would do in a situation if attacked but training the mind comes into play, too.  I think about getting loose if I'm grabbed and then running, not smashing the throat and breaking bones.


Depending on the exact circumstances, in an off duty (and even in some on-duty situations), I may not try to restrain someone who's attacked me.  I do generally have some form of restraint on me -- but, especially, if I'm off duty and out of my jurisdiction, and responsible for others with me (like my wife or my niece), I may simply deal with the threat and skedaddle!

For an ordinary citizen, this applies even more so.  You restrain a guy; what are you going to do with him?  Do you have any restraints?  Can you tie a handcuff knot?  (Not that there are a lot of cops who can...)  Will you have a hand free to call 911?  There's a lot to deal with... and are you ready and willing to be responsible for your attacker's safety?  (Someone who's cuffed/bound can't catch themselves if they trip, keep a door from hitting them in the face, etc.)


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## GBlues

In my home state, the laws have changed. Like it used to be if a guy has a baseball and is attacking you, you can defend yourself with equal force. It's not that way anymore, point blank if you feel as though your life is in serious danger you can just shoot the guy. Course, you have to prove why you felt that way, but in my mind if it comes to multiple opponents your life is very much in danger.

A kid I knew told me this story about how he and his buddies were out driving around and they came to a stop light, and apparently they had already had words with the guy in the car next to them, so they had some more words. Then things esscalated to the point where they guy got out of his car. So he and his two buddies got out, and started beating the hell out of this poor guy. But, again the throws of combat somebody has to do something stupid, and one of his buddies pulled a knife out and stabbed the guy. He told me, " We didn't want to kill the guy or nothing like that just beat his ***." I mean whethere that story is true or not I couldn't tell ya, could have been a young man, trying to look tough, but does beg the point of how things very quickly can get out of hand.

Thus my quote earlier about the better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Personally I would rather stand trial for killing a man, than to have him stand trial for killing me, and six men burying me. This is a good discussion on this. Because, depending on how well your trained and on how good you are, maybe you can confidently subdue multiple attackers, without causing any permanent, damage. I'm not. Personally I don't know very many people that are. I know of one, and he's getting old, and even in his youth at his prime he wouldn't play games, do what you got to do to get away, whatever that takes. I agree with all of you guys about getting out of there as soon as possible, but sometimes it's not. Maybe it's best to go with your gut instinct? Are these guys going to try and kill me? If so can I run to safety? If not, can I hurt them bad enough they won't be able to follow? 

Thanks for the thread. Been very informative, you are all very knowledgeable, and it is appreciated.


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## YoungMan

To me, you respond only until the attacker no longer has the will to fight, and your response must be relative to his attack. You cannot respond to words with violence, a grab with a knockout, or a punch with a killing blow.
Bottom line, my response must be suited to the attack and grounded in a sense of ethics and morality. As soon as it becomes clear he cannot continue the attack I must stop.


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## Hyper_Shadow

Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.


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## jks9199

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.


Without some definition of "finish the job", that's an attitude that could land you in prison for 20 to life in the US.  The force used to defend yourself must be reasonable and appropriate to the attack, and you cannot re-engage or otherwise become the attacker.  The issues aren't simple, but they've been discussed several times in various threads, especially in General Self Defense.

Again, I counsel a simple approach: deal with the initial attack; do enough damage to ensure that you aren't going to be chased or otherwise won't remain in danger; escape.  Doing enough damage may be simply pushing someone down, or it may be snapping their neck, crushing their ribcage, or shooting them.  It simply depends on the totality of the circumstances.


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## MA-Caver

Hyper_Shadow said:


> Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.


 What jks9199 says is true. Also I feel I must empathize the point that a Martial Artist, a TRUE Martial Artist knows when to stop. Withholding the final blow shows strength of character as well as restraint. 
Remember the oath of peace! 

Do not hurt where holding is enough, do not wound where hurting is enough, do not maim where wounding is enough do not kill where maiming is enough... the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill. 

:asian:


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## YoungMan

If someone attacks me and I respond with more than enough force to nullify it, then I am just as bad as he is. The true mark of a warrior is to say "I could destroy you if I wanted but I won't because I choose not to."


----------



## Andy Moynihan

Empty Hands said:


> There's really nothing they could (legally) do. If the guy hasn't done anything overt, all you can do is call the police. They'll move the guy along, and he'll be back in an hour or a day.


 

See now this is where my cynicism/lack of faith in humanity really shows through--THIS is why, were I to run such a school, there would be no "walk-ins welcome" policy--the time in this society's history when that was doable has passed: New students would show up by appointment only, and there'd be a keycard system for students/visitors *shrug*


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## YoungMan

Aaaand, you would most likely go out of business. This isn't 15th Century China.


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## JustAVisitor

If your response is disproportionate with the attack, you can be charged for assault. Technically, you have to use the necessary force to get out of trouble and nothing else. Easier said than done for sure.
Note that I have been told by police that if you are a black belt or a higher level (or anything considered equivalent) then you are considered to be a walking weapon. And he said that you have to warn your aggressor before retaliating...  (i think that this is really dumb but...).
Is there a thread for 'attack' anecdotes? because i would have a couple of stories to share .


----------



## JustAVisitor

BTW, Lynne, consider not wearing any visible sign that you practice MA if you want to avoid a fight. Plus, you should give yourself the advantage of surprise if fighting can not be avoided.


----------



## Lynne

JustAVisitor said:


> BTW, Lynne, consider not wearing any visible sign that you practice MA if you want to avoid a fight. Plus, you should give yourself the advantage of surprise if fighting can not be avoided.


 That's what I was thinking.  Considering that some of the people hanging out at night (or even during daylight hours) are derelicts or have been drinking too much, a shirt with a kicking karate figure on it may be all the provocation they need.


----------



## Andy Moynihan

YoungMan said:


> Aaaand, you would most likely go out of business. This isn't 15th Century China.


 

That's the point: I wouldn't do it to make a living to begin with because thanks to how the landscape was allowed to develop over the last 30 some odd years, you cannot do so without making it into what it isn't supposed to be.


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## YoungMan

Understandable. There has to be a happy medium between turning martial arts into some super exclusive elite club for the few and having an open door policy where everybody and his brother is welcome.


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## YoungMan

Lynne said:


> That's what I was thinking. Considering that some of the people hanging out at night (or even during daylight hours) are derelicts or have been drinking too much, a shirt with a kicking karate figure on it may be all the provocation they need.


 
It's a question of discretion. Wearing a class t-shirt to the local mall or shopping center? Should not be a problem. Wearing a class t-shirt to the bar or if you know you're going to a bad section of town? Not recommended.


----------



## Lynne

YoungMan said:


> It's a question of discretion. Wearing a class t-shirt to the local mall or shopping center? Should not be a problem. Wearing a class t-shirt to the bar or if you know you're going to a bad section of town? Not recommended.


 Don't go to bars, so no problem there.  But wearing it at night, after class, walking to my car may not always be the best idea. Some people hang outside at the back entrance to the bar - right where I pass.  A few gangsta types or unstable homeless or kooks here and there.


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## Hyper_Shadow

> you cannot re-engage or otherwise become the attacker



I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.

_'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.

_Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.


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## Sukerkin

Ah, the fire and surety of youth .  

I can't say that I agree with justifying a 'first strike' philosophy.  For me, that's a very dangerous road in legal terms and is also a very grey area moraly.  

Even if you are certain beyond any doubt that violence is about to erupt, striking first removes any chance of avoiding it and almost guarantees either an escalation or legal consequences.


----------



## YoungMan

"Strike first" has been the centerpiece of our foreign policy for eight years now and look where it's gotten us.


----------



## terryl965

YM what do you meanby the statement?


----------



## jks9199

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.
> 
> _'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.
> 
> _Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.


Personally, I'd rather have enough of an understanding of the law that I can defend myself or my loved ones without either going to prison or finding myself handing over my hard-earned belongings and paychecks to someone else...

But then, I sometimes have silly thoughts like that.

There are indeed times to act pre-emptively; see THIS thread for a much more detailed discussion.  Another is HERE.

You're also under a significant misunderstanding about the real nature of violent attack.  In the real world, few of the bad guys will warn you; in fact, many practice how to be unobtrusive UNTIL they strike, or how to distract you.  Yes, you can and should be alert and aware of your surroundings, which will let you recognize danger -- often before it strikes.  But the simple truth is that we all experience moments of distraction for lots of reasons.  The ogres wait and seize those moments, not the moments when you're fully alert, eyes wide open and ready for it.


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## YoungMan

Terry,
What I mean by that is that our foreign policy for the past eight years has been guided by the notion of using our military to strike first rather than in self defense of the nation.
The end result is a world community that hates us and a loss of moral credibility on our part.
But I don't want to derail this thread into a political discussion


----------



## Hyper_Shadow

> You're also under a significant misunderstanding about the real nature of violent attack.



 Forgive the fire of youth but I've seen a lot of heads stamped on in my lifespan. It's gruesome and sickening. There are a lot of night clubs where I live and as I've experienced it most violent confrontations I've seen or experienced have actually built up over the course of a night out. I've seen people out for trouble and you can spot them coming a mile away. I'll concede that they will be unobtrusive as much as possible and try not draw attention to themselves or they'll distract you and use all manner of tricks. So there are times when you are going to be on the 'back foot' to start with.
 But isn't that what the actuality of combat is? No one situation is the same. It's all a state of flux with billions of factors changing and evolving in miliseconds. You can't group different situations into different boxes because they each are seperate yet the same.



> Ah, the fire and surety of youth .
> 
> I can't say that I agree with justifying a 'first strike' philosophy. For me, that's a very dangerous road in legal terms and is also a very grey area moraly.
> 
> Even if you are certain beyond any doubt that violence is about to erupt, striking first removes any chance of avoiding it and almost guarantees either an escalation or legal consequences.



 I dunno about a grey area in moral terms (I like to think of myself as an upstanding citizen and despite my falls and follies I wouldn't provoke an avoidable situation) but legally if you're under threat and you've got one or more people threatening to kick your head up the street you are perfectly within your rights to act first. Of course as MAists we're at a legal disadvatage because we are also entitled to use only necessary force. But as I've said, if I feel my life is in danger all force is necessary force. I can see where everyone else is coming from but from personal experiences being too much of a pacifist is just as bad as being overly agressive. People (especially when drunk or on drugs) can take that as weakness and it provokes attack even faster.

 To quote Geoff Thompson (for the second time today), 'Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six'.


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## Chitmunk

First I would like to ask why you didn't place this topic in the general forum, it is a great discussion piece.What term of "finish" is definitely a good question.  Personally I would view it as what stops the incident as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort nessecary.  If you are encountered by someone who will most likely kill you if you don't do likewise to them then I say do what is nessecary, but no more.  Of course you being the one attacked makes you the judge of what is nessecary, obviously you ending up seriously injured (or worse) would not be an ideal outcome.  Also doing too much, or not enough leaves you open for legal backsplash.  As someone trained in the ways of balance, and the ways of violence it has to be up to you to determine how much affort consists of finishing the job, and remember to be ready to back your actions before the law because you are trained.And remember a good dependable can of mace at your side will very rarely let you down ;^P...  Mace: designed to bring out the wuss in EVERYBODY!


----------



## Lynne

Chitmunk said:


> First I would like to ask why you didn't place this topic in the general forum, it is a great discussion piece.What term of "finish" is definitely a good question. Personally I would view it as what stops the incident as quickly as possible with the least amount of effort nessecary. If you are encountered by someone who will most likely kill you if you don't do likewise to them then I say do what is nessecary, but no more. Of course you being the one attacked makes you the judge of what is nessecary, obviously you ending up seriously injured (or worse) would not be an ideal outcome. Also doing too much, or not enough leaves you open for legal backsplash. As someone trained in the ways of balance, and the ways of violence it has to be up to you to determine how much affort consists of finishing the job, and remember to be ready to back your actions before the law because you are trained.And remember a good dependable can of mace at your side will very rarely let you down ;^P... Mace: designed to bring out the wuss in EVERYBODY!


 Hi Chitmunk,

I could have placed this in the General Forum I guess.  Also, jks says there are numerous threads along this line in the self-defense forum.  Maybe there are too many like this one, lol.


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## Brother John

Lynne said:


> I've been told if attacked, to finish the job.  If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking _him_ in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm.  To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike.  I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck.  The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.
> 
> The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin.  He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.
> 
> Oh, we have to pass a bar.  Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out.  The other night there were 6 women being rowdy.  I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo.  You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.
> 
> Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"


Something like "Finishing" is VERY situation-specific. There is NO generic answer, but there are maybe some guidelines worth consideration:

*1st off:* There MUST be a marked difference between you and the attacker. TRUE, you must have some degree of "killer instinct", but that doesn't mean you need to have "killing intent". Study well the difference, it's very meaningful.  My suggestion: ONLY "Finish" in order to ensure that you're safety is assured. Also: you very well may have to validate your rationale in court, but it's better to be alive in court than to have fallen victim to a rapist.

*2nd off:* a strike to the groin isn't nearly as effective as it seems you believe it is! In a high adrenaline situation NEVER count on even a strong, well placed strike/kick/stomp to the groin to 'end' ANYTHING. It seldom will. I'm not saying never, but I've seen many altercations (I'm a correctional officer and have seen lots of fights, many with killer-intent) in which men have been kicked full force in the groin and gone right on with the fight, full strength and undetered. One case in particular, the guy was about 20 years old and not all that athletic, yet after getting kicked HARD in the boys TWICE, he continued to fight and ended up winning. Later he was taken to the hospital for the injury he took to the groin, yet During the fight.........nuthin!
Attacks to things like joints (knees) and eyes, throat.....MUCH MUCH more effective!! They don't rely on "Pain Compliance"....they are mechanical "finishers". 
*3rd:* _Common sense!_!
Get a new bag, one that doesn't have ANYTHING to do with martial arts at all. Save that school one for tournaments or visiting other schools....etc. SAME for the T-shirt. Wear it to the mall to show support ((and free advertising for your dojang)) and to show school pride, but DON'T wear it down that alley. The reason I say these things? Because criminals and drunkards need NO provocation to do some pretty STUPID and heartless things!!  But when given a provocation, they WILL target it.  Don't give them a reason.  I'm not saying this to imply you shouldn't be proud of being a martial artist or for being from your dojang..... you SHOULD be!!!! But there's a difference between holding your head up high and advertising that you are a "Fighter".

In the end, the issue of "finishing" is very situation specific!!
If a guy steps out of the bar and has a "mean" look on his face and says "Hey Lady".....and you kick him in the knee and punch him in the throat, don't count on ANY luck in court!
But when the chips are truly down and you believe that your life or the sanctity of your body is in jeopardy.....do what must be done to achieve safety and peace again!!!

Your Brother
John

PS: I can relate!! During my teen years I worked out at a dojang that had two bars near it, one three buildings to the west and one five buildings to the east. The "East" one was the one that I had to ride my bike past going to and from the classes. It was a "Biker" bar. The other was pretty much known as THE meeting place for the local KKK idiots.
........nice........:jaw-dropping:


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## Brother John

YoungMan said:


> "Strike first" has been the centerpiece of our foreign policy for eight years now and look where it's gotten us.



No doubt!
An extremely hamstrung Al-Qada 
a Few less murderous, genocidal dictators
and democracy in a country that could destabilize the middle east, and through our dependency on foreign oil....destabilize the rest of the world!

It's gotten us 'safer'.



Your Brother
John
PS: you are right though, this is WAY off topic.


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## SamT

Hyper_Shadow said:


> I'm never the attacked, I never wait to be attacked. The only time someone should be on the back foot is if they're taken by surprise. Fact is if you're in a situation and spot a confrontation without a viable means of evasion then you fight first and as hard as you can. Then you get out of there and never think about the confrontation again.
> 
> _'I do not mourn at parting from anyone or anything' - Miyamoto Musashi.
> 
> _Screw necessary force, if you're fighting for your life it's you or them. If your fighting for your family or close friends, it's them. It's a harsh reality to face, but I'd be more than willing to sacrifice 20 or more years of my life in return for a little bit more safety for the people I care about. That's the burden a martial artist should carry and prepared to accept.


So the whole "Never strike first" and "Defend only as needed" mentality of most martial arts (or at least TSD) doesn't matter if your adrenaline filled body thinks that someone's a threat to you?

I have to say, that's quite hot headed and immature.


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## Master Jay S. Penfil

This is an interesting thread...
To be honest, I didn't have time to read the entire thread so I may be repeating some things that have already been said, but here goes...

In most cases, men are stronger (physically) then woman. If you are training to use brute force as opposed to understanding technique and kinesiology, you will loose in a street confrontation.

The most important thing to understand is that Martial Arts are also "Martial Science". Understanding anatomy and how to effect it is crucial. If you simply Punch, Strike or Kick as hard as you can without knowlege of "Specific Vital Targets" you are wasting your time and effort.

If the attacker has a "High Pain Threashold", simply striking him in a general area is just going to "Piss Him Off". Strikling multiple targets effectively is crucial.

You can have all of this great knowlege in place and have trained the correct techniques for 20+ years, but if you have not developed the "Kill or Be Killed" mental attitude, and you haven't trained with full force, you won't be able to respond and deliver successful tactics when caught by surprise.

If, in your training, you never get impacted with serious force and the first time you are impacted with serious force is when the stranger that intends to Rape, Robb and Kill you catches you off guard, you will go into shock and be dead...

There is an old saying that we use in training ALL OF THE TIME:

If you are afraid to get hit, you are going to get hit!!!

If your first respose is to back away from the attack with your arms up in a defensive position with your body leaning away from the attacker, causing your spinal allignment to make you off balanced, you will be on your back in a heartbeat and it will be over for you before your defensive tactics ever get started...

Is this posting harsh, hard to read and leaving you feeling weak and volnerable??? If your answer is YES then that is good. Read it over and over again and then get back into the dojang with a new understanding and realization that you have to improve your thaining and training methods to prepare you for reality.

Too many martial arts school, regardless of system of nation of origin have created curriculum that are teaching technique physically, but not developing the correct mind-set. You are NOT doing any student a favor by going easy on them. If you are NOT challenging your students on all levels you are setting them up for failure.

If you are the instructor and you are yourself questioning your own ability to survive an attack right outside of your school, you need to up your game.

If you are interested, call me directly and I will provide you in detail, what you need to move you forward...


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## MBuzzy

I think that the problem that many of us encounter is how to bring more realism into our training.  In many cases, the question of whether to "finish the job" or not is never an issue, since many people have never had the realistic training necessary to even do it.


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## jks9199

MBuzzy said:


> I think that the problem that many of us encounter is how to bring more realism into our training.  In many cases, the question of whether to "finish the job" or not is never an issue, since many people have never had the realistic training necessary to even do it.


On that particular issue... Check out *Training At the Speed of Life* by Kenneth Murray; it's all about SAFELY bringing realism into training.


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## Hyper_Shadow

> So the whole "Never strike first" and "Defend only as needed" mentality of most martial arts (or at least TSD) doesn't matter if your adrenaline filled body thinks that someone's a threat to you?
> 
> I have to say, that's quite hot headed and immature.



Yeah I can be quite hot headed and I certainly am immature, however not when I am risk of physical harm. The whole never strike first thing as far as I remember in my training has only ever come from Shotokan's Karate Ni Sente Nashi. Personally I'm a realist, regardless of the art and it's moralities. If I had to throw everything moral away just to save a life I would and that I think is more important than anything. And don't underestimate the effects of adrenaline on your body and your mind. It will always try to take you over the edge if you have to fight. Training to control adrenal stress is all about stepping back from the edge.

Believe it or not I'm quite the peaceful individual, as I've said if something is avoidable then avoid it. If not, then don't lose and ensure noone else is going to be at risk. The only way to do that is to finish your opponent to make sure they're unconscious or in so much pain they don't want to fight anymore.


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## Kaygee

My Sah Bum Nim is a really "nasty" instructor. And when I describe him that way, I am not saying it a derogatory manner, I mean when the guy grabs you, you feel it, and he knows how to hurt you. He passes that knowledge on to us.

When I first started knife defense, my Sah Bum Nim was showing me one......the one I am referring to starts with the attacker thrusting the knife UP towards you. The defender does a two fist X low block and jumps his body out of the way and grabs hold of the knife. Then you kick the attacker in the groin with your right foot while holding on to the knife. You then get under the arm, spin it around and stab the attacker with their own knife right in the ribs..........

That's all fine and dandy, but then, to my surprise my master said "and after that"

Whoa!......"After that?" Is there really an "after that" after you have stabbed your attacker in the ribs?
My master's response was, if the guy is trying to kill you, then you do what you have to do. He could be hopped up on drugs or something.

He has shown me/us some really crazy things....how to break arms, legs, dislocate shoulders, even break necks. Most of the shots that he shows us to do are yuk soo do's and soo do's to the corroded artery and groin strikes are one of favorite. 

He has always told us that if someone is dumb enough to attack you, finish them. Nearly every single one of the self defense moves/one-step sparring moves that we practice end with some sort of punch to the defenseless attacker, (they are defenseless because you put them in that position)  I am sure it is a punch that does have the potential of killing your opponent!

As a martial artist though, trained with this knowledge, you also have to know when to restrain yourself and when to take it to another level. If I am ever attacked, I am going to do exactly what my instructor says to do....

"NEUTRALIZE THE THREAT" 

That may mean one punch to the face or one side kick to the ribs....or it may mean a punch in the ribs and then a dislocation of the shoulder....who knows? But you should know how far to take it. A trued martial artist knows that when he becomes the attacker, then he is no longer defending himself.

Just do what you gotta do and get the hell out of there. I doubt I would ever run from  fight...one of the ten articles on mental training is "never retreat in battle"........but I wouldn't stick around to smash the guy's face in or do any 'unneeded damage" to them either. It's like Star Wars....it's easy to turn to the dark side, so you have to be careful!


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