# Boy Scouts, Politics and Religion Discussion



## granfire (Sep 26, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> I did the girl scout thing with my daughter and now my soon-to-be-14 year old son is finding himself in boy scouts. He *LOVES* the outdoorsmanship and survival tactics he is learning and developing. He *LOVES* to hike, as well and is a natural leader.  His troop leaders usually include him in youth leadership groups where they usually only take 14 years & older or first class scouts when he is neither.
> 
> My husband is "involved" as an assistant scoutmaster. I may get involved as well. He is very interested in Venturing which really excites me.
> 
> ...



I am not crazy about the anti gay thing either (I rather deal with openly gay men or women instead of the the closet pedos)

But the majority of the program has so much to give to the boys, especially in a time when outdoorsy skills are being lost in favor of indoor sitdown 'activities'.

I mean, a boy being able to cook a meal for himself and his friends, that's pretty good in a time when a lot of girls can't manage past takeout....

It's a guy's organization. I don't go camping or hiking with them if it can be helped (though I underwent the training in youth safety, so in theory i could) because the guys need their space were no female is frowning at them when they tell butt jokes, scratch certain places and make noises with their bodies.


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## arnisador (Sep 26, 2012)

Tames D said:


> My boys have been in the Scouts for 8 years now. I have NEVER heard anything about an anti gay stance.



Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.


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## Tames D (Sep 26, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.



An 11 year old gay? If mine was I would stand by him and tell the scouts to **** off. But knowing the group we belong to, I don't think that would be an issue. An 11 year old gay kid? Really? Am I out of touch with human sexuality?


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## granfire (Sep 26, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.



well, religion is strongly supported.
But we don't do religion. Since it never felt right.
The kid will have to find his own way. But it has never caused a ripple. 
I suppose it depends on where you are at and how the group dynamic is if somebody takes issue and carries it to the upper levels.
But from the age of 11 through 18 the sexual orientation does come into play, I am sure, at some level. 
Not sure though if I like the emphasis that is put on that in the US. A person is much more than what they do in bed. It would be great if the program that is all about growth would reflect that better.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 27, 2012)

Tames D said:


> My boys have been in the Scouts for 8 years now. I have NEVER heard anything about an anti gay stance.


This will probably be a long paragraph because this argument against scouting gets me very worked up. Look at the bottom for a too long didn't read.
It's not something people actually IN the scouts care too much about. From what I understand of it, it's that the scouts in general (although many many troops have made exceptions) don't want leaders/scouts to be gay. i say leaders and scouts, but any times where I've seen someone get kicked out, it's almost always been a leader at a camp, or a scoutmaster, or something similar. I've looked, and maybe i just looked badly but I've never seen any article talking about an actual SCOUT that was kicked out of their troop just for being gay. In fact, I've met several gay scouts through summer camp, who are openly gay and the troop just happens to 'forget' about that rule. So, it's not really a set in stone thing like most scout bashers seem to think it is. Also, it's not a rule that's there specifically for discrimination or some bigoted belief. Whether or not I agree (or any of you) agree with the reasoning behind it, there is a reason behind the rule. It's to protect the kids. There are many 11-year old's who may not completely understand certain sexual harassment ideas, so to protect them (and make parents feel comfortable) gay people aren't allowed. You have to remember that most of the time it's an overnight thing, and at summer camp at least they are showering together a lot of the time. This offers a lot of opportunities for sexual harassment take place, and, presumably, if you take away the people who would want to sexually harass them (guys who are interested in other guys sexually), the danger of it happening also decreases. it's not a perfect system, but in a large organization those are hard to come by, and you can't exactly create a rule that goes by a case-for-case basis. So instead, they have the general rule that's designed to protect everyone and ease worried parents, but isn't necessarily always enforced by troops where the issue comes up. Also, not sure where to put this, but the troops that I know that do have gay scouts mention it to the parents, and talk to both the parents and the scouts and try to put them at ease about the issue, and as long as their all at ease, let him stay in the troop. The one time where they weren't at ease, the scoutmaster helped the scout find a nearby troop who was ok with his sexual orientation. To clarify, this was NOT the scoutmaster kicking him out. If he stayed with the troop, other scouts would have left scouting completely, and he would have been bullied for his sexual orientation by the other scouts who weren't ok with it. Instead, the scoutmaster actively went out of his way to help find the boy an environment where he wouldn't haven't be persecuted over something he had no control over, and could still benefit from all that scouting has to offer.

Tl;dr the issue is a big one, but is not as black and white as most people against it tend to suggest. It mainly only affects leaders, for safety reasons, and is done more as a case-by-case basis, rather than everyone just blindly follows the rule. It's different from the army because this includes 11-year old boys who don't understand everything yet, and different from other sports because the scouts shower together, and the scouts and leaders sleep in the same area(although leaders sleep in a different tent) so it's easier to sexually harass a scout.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 27, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.


read above quote for gay; as for irreligious, scouts never say you have to be RELIGIOUS, they say you have to be REVERENT, there's a difference.
Definition of reverent=Feeling or showing deep and solemn respect. Definition of reverent =/= believing in a deity, or being religious.
I've heard stories of openly atheist/agnostic eagle scouts. They don't have to believe in anything in particular, they have to show respect to the religions, to nature, and to the world in general. You could be the most 'religious' person in the world, and bash other religions, and that would not be reverent. You could be the least religious person in the world, but respect religions, and that would be reverent. 
P.S. All the stories I've heard of atheist Eagle scouts, most of them when pressed on the issue have said they respect nature and think it's beautiful and mystical/magical, they just won't say a specific deity created everything. 
P.P.S. from your other post, it seems like you were never actually affiliated with the boy scouts. Do you have any experience with this, or are you just saying what you hear from the news, without being personally involved assuming things are a certain way, and preaching them as if they're fact?


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2012)

UK Scouting and being Gay.
http://scouts.org.uk/fellowship/html/flags.html


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## shesulsa (Sep 27, 2012)

The anti-gay policy seems to be more of a political statement and official policy than anything else.  I've mainly run into parents who don't support boy scouts in sales or won't have their son join because of the policy.

I definitely understand this and support their right to do this.

I believe, however, that most of today's scouts really don't care if their leaders or other boys in the troop are gay. I know my son doesn't care and with two-deep leadership it's a lot harder for troops who adhere to this policy to expose their charges to opportunities for abuse.

It would be nice if they would change this policy, though I think they would lose much funding from the LDS church.


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## pgsmith (Sep 28, 2012)

> Try telling them that one of your boys is gay (or irreligious) and see what happens.



That all depends upon the Troop. Troops that are sponsored by the local Baptist church are not going to react well to that information. Troops that aren't connected to a specific religious organization are going to react quite differently. I've encountered church Troops that did not follow the recommended non-denominational service edict. Our Troop tended to be one of those that was quite open. It was quite interesting to make a Sunday service that was non-denominational enough for the Buddhist kid, the two Hindu kids, and the Jewish kid, not to mention our Catholic, Baptist, and Methodist kids.  
One of the things that make the Scouts such a good organization, is that the program can be tailored for each individual Troop. The Troop, as represented by the Scoutmasters and the Committee, are the ones that decide how they're going to do things.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2012)

Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?


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## Blindside (Sep 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?



That is a surprise to me as well.  Admittedly I had a very secular troop, but I can't imagine us doing a Sunday service out in the field.


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## pgsmith (Sep 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Sunday services? Are the Scouts in America more of a religious organisation than ours?



  Yes, they tend to be. Our recommended program has a Troop chaplain with a boy assistant chaplain. Some Troops don't bother, other Troops are adamant about it. I always tried to get our boys to put on a Sunday service because it made them conciously think about the boys of other religions, and gave them all an opportunity to stop and think about what they were doing, and to be grateful for the good things in their life. It is my opinion that too many people today focus too much on what they don't have rather than what's good in their life, and a Sunday service was my way of trying to keep my boys from falling into that trap. Our services were, of necessity, _extremely_ non-denominational.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2012)

Do you have the Boys' Brigade and the Girls' Brigade? These are the Christian youth organisations here. There's also the Jewish Lad's and Girl's Brigade for (obviously) Jewish kids. I never worked out why the Christians were boys and the Jews lads though!


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## granfire (Sep 28, 2012)

Blindside said:


> That is a surprise to me as well.  Admittedly I had a very secular troop, but I can't imagine us doing a Sunday service out in the field.



Around here, nothing goes on Sunday (well actually, the stores are open, but EVERYBODY else is in church. Twice)

We are strangely enough pretty secular as well, though our Scout Master was pretty religious himself. 
We had a short prayer at the dismissal of that one Camping trip where they found a dead guy in the river. (longer story, I don't think the boys ever saw him, but the leaders certainly had to deal with it...confused drunk guy taking a swim in an icy cold swollen creek...his body barely made it)

The Mormons seem to embrace the program more than any other group it seems, which leads to some interesting policies, I suppose.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2012)

granfire said:


> Around here, nothing goes on Sunday (well actually, the stores are open, but EVERYBODY else is in church. Twice)
> 
> We are strangely enough pretty secular as well, though our Scout Master was pretty religious himself.
> We had a short prayer at the dismissal of that one Camping trip where they found a dead guy in the river. (longer story, I don't think the boys ever saw him, but the leaders certainly had to deal with it...confused drunk guy taking a swim in an icy cold swollen creek...his body barely made it)
> ...



How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.


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## pgsmith (Sep 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.



  I agree with that totally, and so does the BSA recommended program. However, many church groups use the Boy Scouts as their organization's youth group requirement. Since it is then a church youth group, and the Troops are allowed to tailor the program to fit their needs, you end up with some pretty religious Scout Troops. I've been at more than one adult leader training where a participant refused to attend sections about other religious viewpoints and how to accomodate them.

   Myself, I wish the LDS church (Mormons) would drop the Boy Scouts. The way I understand it is this ... since Scouting is the official LDS church youth activity, all boys are required to attend, and all males are required to serve a minimum stint as a leader. So, you end up with both boys and leaders that don't want to be there, those boys that could have gained a lot from the Scouting program instead learned nothing because their leaders were untrained and uncaring. My Scouts that worked as summer camp staff, including one who has been camp director at a Colorado camp for several years now, all dreaded LDS week at summer camp (they have their own week so they don't have to mix with others). They said that the Scouts were always out of control and terribly destructive, and the leaders had no interest in trying to help them.


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## granfire (Sep 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> How do they reconcile it all to Baden-Powell's original vision and ideas for Scouting? while nominally Christian it was to be a more military type of organisation than a religious one. B-P was a free thinker and wanted his organisation to be available to all rather than just those of one sect or another.



well, the people are that religious. That's what they do, that's how it shows. <shrug> 
I can't complain about our troop tho. We are working a bit on the discipline side (works well when the new Scout Master and his wife are both high ranking sergeants in the Army ) 
The religion part has never bothered any body so far, with me probably being the black sheep in the bunch, never having my kid Christened. Poor thing will have to find his own way in the world of faith. 

The program itself is laid out for everybody to gain something from it, and for everybody to learn new things if they so desire.


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## arnisador (Sep 28, 2012)

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:

"The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual  people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating  its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked  membership status or leadership positions for violation of these  foundational principles.


 The BSA contends that these policies are essential in its mission to instill in young people the values of the Scout Oath and Law."


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## Tames D (Sep 28, 2012)

arnisador said:


> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:
> 
> "The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual  people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating  its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked  membership status or leadership positions for violation of these  foundational principles.
> 
> ...



Wow. Maybe I made a big mistake putting my kids in the Scouts. I didn't realize there was so much religious and SEXUAL issues with young boys trying to do a good thing. I think I will pull them out of this right now. On second thought , NO.  Arni, Why are you soooooooo against this?


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## arnisador (Sep 28, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Wow. Maybe I made a big mistake putting my kids in the Scouts. I didn't realize there was so much religious and SEXUAL issues with young boys trying to do a good thing. I think I will pull them out of this right now. On second thought , NO.  Arni, Why are you soooooooo against this?



I don't think teaching young kids homophobia is a good thing. But it's a free country. If this is how people want to spend their time, let them.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2012)

arnisador said:


> From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boy_Scouts_of_America_membership_controversies we have:
> 
> "The Boy Scouts of America (BSA), one of the largest private youth organizations in the United States, has policies which prohibit atheists, agnostics and "open or avowed" homosexual  people from membership in its Scouting program as directly violating  its fundamental principles and tenets. BSA has denied or revoked  membership status or leadership positions for violation of these  foundational principles.
> 
> ...





> I don't think teaching young kids homophobia is a good thing. But it's a free country. If this is how people want to spend their time, let them.



Ok, a couple of things.
1. You're using wikipedia, which is, while often factual, even more often biased. If you can find anything in the BSA official policy, then it can be debated. Until then, there's no point in debating the official stance.
2. They don't teach kids homophobia, they are not going up to kids saying "be scared of gay people". Admittedly  there are people that have probably done that, but that is both in and outside of scouting, and people spewing that has nothing to do with scouting. 
3. Most troops don't even bring up the topic, and as I've already said, many troops have gay and/or non-religious members, and eagle scouts. it's more of a troop by troop thing then anything else.
4. Since you failed to answer earlier (I'm beginning to suspect you're just skipping past my posts instead of reading them :idunno:  I will ask again: do you have any personal experience with the BSA? If not, get that experience, talk to an actual troops, and the scouts, and see how many of those scouts have a problem with homosexuals, then form an opinion. 
5. As Tames asked, why are you so against the BSA? Because you don't agree with one policy? It's a great organization, and teaches so much, but you can't like everything about any organization. As the saying goes "He who looks for a friend without faults..."


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## arnisador (Sep 29, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> 4. Since you failed to answer earlier (I'm beginning to suspect you're just skipping past my posts instead of reading them :idunno:  I will ask again: do you have any personal experience with the BSA?



See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.



> 5. As Tames asked, why are you so against the BSA? Because you don't agree with one policy?



Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization. Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case _*Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale*_, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/

"The BSA policy is: While the BSA does not proactively inquire about  the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not  grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or  who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of  the BSA.

Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and  discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual  advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast  majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their  children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way,  these topics."


 It's an org. with an official policy of discrimination against homosexuals (and atheists/agnostics). If that works for you--if you either agree with it or can compromise with it--fine. My point is that it's sad that some who join such an org. apparently prefer to cover up such a fact rather than speak against it.

I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2012)

arnisador said:


> See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.


This refers to the cub scouts, not the Boy Scouts, two very related, but still not the same organization. My question was more directed to if you've actually been to any Boy Scout troops and talked to them, not Cub Scout troops.

[Quote}Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization.[/QUOTE] 
Seeing as how I've heard many people speak up against the discriminatory nature, I can't agree with that statement, and was wondering if there was anything more that you were referring to.


> Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case _*Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale*_, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
> http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/
> 
> "The BSA policy is: &#8220;While the BSA does not proactively inquire about  the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not  grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or  who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of  the BSA.Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.&#8221;


Also not necessarily the part I was referring to, although that was more my fault for being unclear. I meant the policy that atheists and agnostics aren't allowed to be members of Boy Scouts. That issue is addressed here http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-drp.html. This is open to interpretation a tiny bit, but how I (and the chaplains at the scout camp I go to) interpret this is not that you must believe in God, as much as you must respect beliefs of others. Especially with #1, belief in God could be however a scout interprets it, even if their 'god' is science, it would still work in this context. Also, in the part discussing homosexuality that you mentioned, it states that it's the parents job to discuss sexuality, they are not trying to influence the scouts with this policy, or setting up scouts to be discriminatory towards homosexuals.



> I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.


Not entirely certain what your either trying to say or respond to in this, maybe I missed something someone posted?


> I take it you're new here. I myself have been gone for a bit--what's the rule about "fun and positive parts" only? That's going to really hamper me in a few martial arts areas here--there are some I don't think so highly of.
> 
> For those for whom the answer to the OP's question is "No" or "Not any more", this could well be an aspect of it.



According to his profile, he's been on this site since 2001, not exactly "new", about a month longer than you. And i don't think he was commenting so much that only fun and positive stuff can be commented on martialtalk, but that political discussions should be in the study. Finally, it's not an aspect of it, because I was not asking, or implying that I wanted to know why people were not involved with scouting. Asked a question mainly towards people who were involved with scouting, and even for them, no direct question of why they are, or their opinions on scouting's official policies. As he said, arguments about that would be more appropriate in the study then in here. With that, I am going to bed because I have a fencing meet tomorrow, and don't feel like wasting more time defending the BSA on what was never supposed to be a political thread.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 29, 2012)

arnisador said:


> See post #13 (prior to your question in post #22). I decided against repeating it then but have come to the conclusion that it'll be necessary for me to do so: Yes, I've been involved. I enjoyed carving the racing cars with my dad. I spent a lot of time on that.


This refers to the cub scouts, not the Boy Scouts, two very related, but still not the same organization. My question was more directed to if you've actually been to any Boy Scout troops and talked to them, not Cub Scout troops.



> Again, I refer you to post #13, and again, it appears it'll be necessary for me to repeat myself: I can see why people stick with it for the positive aspects, but I found it regrettable that someone stated her group has had no one vocalize concerns about the discriminatory nature of the organization.


Seeing as how I've heard many people speak up against the discriminatory nature, I can't agree with that statement, and was wondering if there was anything more that you were referring to.


> Others questioned that policy--including you, despite easily available evidence that it's the organization's official policy (e.g., Wikipedia refers to the U.S. Supreme Court case _*Boy Scouts of America et al. v. Dale*_, 530 U.S. 640 (2000)). Or, another link at Wikipedia, from June of this year:
> http://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2012/06/07/boy-scouts-of-america-clarifies-its-membership-policy/
> 
> "The BSA policy is: &#8220;While the BSA does not proactively inquire about  the sexual orientation of employees, volunteers, or members, we do not  grant membership to individuals who are open or avowed homosexuals or  who engage in behavior that would become a distraction to the mission of  the BSA.Scouting believes same-sex attraction should be introduced and discussed outside of its program with parents, caregivers, or spiritual advisers, at the appropriate time and in the right setting. The vast majority of parents we serve value this right and do not sign their children up for Scouting for it to introduce or discuss, in any way, these topics.&#8221;


Also not necessarily the part I was referring to, although that was more my fault for being unclear. I meant the policy that atheists and agnostics aren't allowed to be members of Boy Scouts. That issue is addressed here http://www.bsa-discrimination.org/html/bsa-drp.html. This is open to interpretation a tiny bit, but how I (and the chaplains at the scout camp I go to) interpret this is not that you must believe in God, as much as you must respect beliefs of others. Especially with #1, belief in God could be however a scout interprets it, even if their 'god' is science, it would still work in this context. Also, in the part discussing homosexuality that you mentioned, it states that it's the parents job to discuss sexuality, they are not trying to influence the scouts with this policy, or setting up scouts to be discriminatory towards homosexuals.



> I don't like everything the U.S. govt. does, but I don't move to Sweden. However, I do voice my opposition to policies I find objectionable.


Not entirely certain what your either trying to say or respond to in this, maybe I missed something someone posted?


> I take it you're new here. I myself have been gone for a bit--what's the rule about "fun and positive parts" only? That's going to really hamper me in a few martial arts areas here--there are some I don't think so highly of.
> 
> For those for whom the answer to the OP's question is "No" or "Not any more", this could well be an aspect of it.



According to his profile, he's been on this site since 2001, not exactly "new", about a month longer than you. And i don't think he was commenting so much that only fun and positive stuff can be commented on martialtalk, but that political discussions should be in the study. Finally, it's not an aspect of it, because I was not asking, or implying that I wanted to know why people were not involved with scouting. Asked a question mainly towards people who were involved with scouting, and even for them, no direct question of why they are, or their opinions on scouting's official policies. As he said, arguments about that would be more appropriate in the study then in here. With that, I am going to bed because I have a fencing meet tomorrow, and don't feel like wasting more time defending the BSA on what was never supposed to be a political thread.


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## Tez3 (Sep 29, 2012)

I'm not sure the argument is turning 'political' as such, I think people do have concerns about the road Scouting seems to be taking in your country. Here and in Europe we are very careful of youth organisations for historical reasons, ie the Hitler Youth so we like our organisations to be broad even the ones that belong to one faith only. I think some are questioning the current values of an organisation that was designed to all encompassing, and non judgemental, I find it disappointing that it seems not to be the organisation B-P had in mind and that seems to work well in other countries. I'm not sure that's political, it's more worrying.


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## pgsmith (Sep 30, 2012)

Sorry, but I have to clear up a point about the BSA policies that some people find so objectionable. The policy is in place because many Scout troops are affiliated with church groups that do not condone same sex relationships. If the BSA council were to adopt a policy of non-discrimination, then I can guarantee that there would be radicals who insisted on being leaders in Troops at a number of these churches, with a threat of a law suit if they weren't allowed. This would cause the collapse of a good number of Troops and they would no longer be allowed to assist the boys, which is the main point of the entire endeavor. This way, while there is a lot of political outcry, the Troops can continue to focus on their mission, which is to help boys become men. For the vast majority of Scout Troops, the issue of same sex relationships is not something that is ever mentioned, or even considered.


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## elder999 (Oct 4, 2012)

Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :



> A longtime Boy Scout claims he's being denied the organization's highest honor because he's gay.
> Ryan Andresen, who lives near San Francisco, recently finished an extensive service project needed to earn his Eagle Scout award, but his troop leader refuses to give him the rank.
> "He said he can't because Ryan said he is gay," said Karen Andresen, the scout's mother.
> Ryan claims the scoutmaster knew about his sexual orientation well before he started the project and paperwork for the honor.
> ...



I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: _For *ALL* boys_


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## granfire (Oct 4, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :
> 
> 
> 
> I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: _For *ALL* boys_



Not to mention they are violating a few of their own principles...
The Scout master should have told the kid right then that he wasn't going to sign off on it.

But I have to say, you don't need a uniform and a sash to have honor - or be an Eagle Scout for that matter.


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## Carol (Oct 4, 2012)

granfire said:


> Not to mention they are violating a few of their own principles...
> The Scout master should have told the kid right then that he wasn't going to sign off on it.
> 
> But I have to say, you don't need a uniform and a sash to have honor - or be an Eagle Scout for that matter.



No, but there are many organizations that recognize the rank as a pretty big deal -- including colleges, scholarship bureaus...not to mention the accolades, such as this young man in Georgia who received letters from current and former Presidents upon earning his Eagle Scout rank:

http://www.news-daily.com/news/2012/oct/03/dear-eagle-scout/


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## Tames D (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm a little confused. Why would the topic of your sexual preference come up? Especially teens. If I was working towards my Eagle, why would I mention that I'm gay, or straight? What on earth does this have anything to do with accomplishing your goals? Why not keep this private info to yourself and not invite the controversy? I don't feel the need to anounce that I'm hetrosexual to organizations that I belong to. It's a little strange.


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2012)

Why should such info. be controversial? More to the point, why should the Boy Scouts care? Your comments amount to "stay in the closet". Teens talk about sex and dating. It comes up.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2012)

I assume your Eagle Scouts like our Queen's Scouts and Guides aren't young teens but are older more like young adults than kids so the chances of them having girlfriends and boyfriends are high. In that case it's very likely that while they may not have talked about their sexuality to Scouting authorities it's public knowledge in their communities.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 5, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Here is all that is wrong with the organization. :
> 
> 
> 
> I was glad when my son said he wanted to quit-my dad was a scout, and a scoutmaster, and so was I, but-as I posted elsewher-it's a sad and sorry organization, that forgets their purpose: _For *ALL* boys_



My solution.

Put out a call to Eagle Scouts who would give their badge to the candidate who earned the rank.  Put the ceremony on video and post it on youtube.  It's viral in days.


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## Tez3 (Oct 5, 2012)

I've been reading up on the history of scouting in America, it seems it has a chequered past with race, unions and a lot of other stuff getting in the way. it seems a shame that the mindset of some people who seem to want to control others lives comes before the general good of youth. Oh and before anyone starts I'm criticising individuals not a country, and as Scouting was started in the UK as a uniquely British organisation that has spread throughout the world I think I can comment on it! One would expect certain countries to be restrictive in it's membership of organisations but not the USA, there I would have expected it to be even more open than here but it's not and it does puzzle me the amount of control you allow over such things. Scouting was never meant to be a 'privately' owned organisation just for an elite chosen by a few.


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## granfire (Oct 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I've been reading up on the history of scouting in America, it seems it has a chequered past with race, unions and a lot of other stuff getting in the way. it seems a shame that the mindset of some people who seem to want to control others lives comes before the general good of youth. Oh and before anyone starts I'm criticising individuals not a country, and as Scouting was started in the UK as a uniquely British organisation that has spread throughout the world I think I can comment on it! One would expect certain countries to be restrictive in it's membership of organisations but not the USA, there I would have expected it to be even more open than here but it's not and it does puzzle me the amount of control you allow over such things. Scouting was never meant to be a 'privately' owned organisation just for an elite chosen by a few.



Yeah, the US is weird that way.
A bit of multiple personality disorder.

Strangely enough, the English roots are embraced and valued.


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## Tames D (Oct 6, 2012)

Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
> I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.



It shouldn't be an issue agreed but when protests turn up on my Facebook and in the UK newspapers then it means it must be quite high profile for it to be international news not just local.


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...



I think most 13 year olds these days know that some kids are gay. Kids who are gay are apt to know or suspect that about themselves by this age also. I agree that the BSA shouldn't care.


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## elder999 (Oct 6, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
> I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.



I'd suggest you ask your 11 and 13 year old what it means-they might just surprise you.

My daughter knew she was a lesbian when she was 12.

And you're right, the Boy Scouts shouldn't care-unfortunately, they do, because of the will of a few old men in Texas, mostly, and some pretty selective interpretations of the Bible-the Boy Scouts, btw, have faith badges for Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish and Muslim scouts, as well as just about every denomination of Christianity.

And just because you're not seeing it, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist....

Lastly, Tames, I'd offer that you might consider-just consider-the notion that your 11 or 13 year old could approach you in the next couple of months to tell you that they're gay, and think about what parenting-and scouting-would be like from that day forward.

Again, from six years ago:



elder999 said:


> Born: *1910*
> Died: *June 2000*
> Cause of death: *Christian Dogma*
> 
> ...


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2012)

elder999 said:


> the Boy Scouts, btw, have faith badges for Hindu, Buddhist



...and Buddhism is arguably a religion without a god, rendering "Duty to God" meaningless.

I keep hearing that what really drives the homophobia and religiosity in the BSA policy is the money that comes to them through Mormon churches, which apparently makes up a lot of their funding. It's a shame to have your policies driven by your funding to that extent.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2012)

In the end, wouldn't it only matter if the Scoutmaster and the Troop goes along with all of the restrictions?  Why couldn't a troop have open atheists and homosexuals as members and simply submit the paperwork as they advanced?  I don't understand how this is an issue unless the hatred is rolling down hill like a ball of ****.

I've been an atheist since I was 14 and open about it.  I was a scout and assistant scoutmaster and it never was an issue.  It would seem that there has to be a certain level of complicity at the grassroots level for this to matter at all.


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## Tez3 (Oct 6, 2012)

Makalakumu said:


> In the end, wouldn't it only matter if the Scoutmaster and the Troop goes along with all of the restrictions? Why couldn't a troop have open atheists and homosexuals as members and simply submit the paperwork as they advanced? I don't understand how this is an issue unless the hatred is rolling down hill like a ball of ****.
> 
> I've been an atheist since I was 14 and open about it. I was a scout and assistant scoutmaster and it never was an issue. It would seem that there has to be a certain level of complicity at the grassroots level for this to matter at all.



Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?



I'm not sure.  It could be stirring up as a distraction, but then again some parts of the US would go along with discrimination no matter who was running for office.  For example, in Central Minnesota, where my troop was based, I could see homosexuality as being a huge issue.  That said, I don't think it needs to be.  I think that individual troops could ignore all of that if they wished.


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## elder999 (Oct 6, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is the up coming election stirring things up or has it always been like this?



It's got nothing to do with the election. It's been going on for a while-since at least 200, and possibly (probably) earlier. From my 2006 post:



> Philadelphia, June 2003-Gregory Lattera, a Boy Scout and camp counselor for the previous seven yeas, was informed that he is banned from scouting because he admitted publicly that he is gay. Upon reading the letter, Lattera said, "It broke my heart.&#8221;
> 
> Port Orchard, Washington, June, 2002-Eagle Scout Darrell Lambert, who had provided more than 1,000 hours of community service as a Scout, was informed by the regional Boy Scouts of America executive that he had one week &#8220;to declare his belief in a supreme being&#8221; or quit the scouts.
> 
> *Washington, D.C., June 2000-The U.S. Supreme court, in a 5-to-4 vote, backed the BSA&#8217;s right to exclude homosexuals. Justice William Rehnquist explained that gays violate the Scout directive to be &#8220;clean&#8221; and &#8220;morally straight.&#8221;*


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## Carol (Oct 7, 2012)

Tames D said:


> Arni, Really? Stay in the closet? I can tell you that my 11 and 13 year old wouldn't know what the **** that means. And the Boy Scouts shouldn't care. Should be a non issue. I think you are thinking these kids are older...
> I'm not sure where you are living, but we're just not seeing this gay and religious bashing where we are.



It should indeed be a non-issue.  Part of the controversy is that these are more mature subjects, and many parents look to activities such as scouting as a way to expand their horizons without throwing them headlong in to the adult world and its darker aspects (such as sexual politics)

Whatever your kids do understand about orientation and religion...chances are that understanding is going to expand and grow when they move towards a relationship of their own and make decisions on their own.  Perhaps it will not be something they fully understand until they are out on their own doing whatever it is they do.

As Georgia mentioned in an earlier post, when the BSA does change, they will need leaders like her own 13 year old, to show that "morally straight" is something that transcends religion and orientation.  It could very well mean that effective change will be more from within.  That sort of thing will require standout individuals with the qualities that scouting strives to develop.


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## shesulsa (Sep 26, 2012)

*********Admin Note********
This thread was copied from The Great Outdoors for continuity.  This thread is for the discussion of the various political, religious and social equality issues regarding the Boy Scouts.  Other posts will have been moved wholesale.
jks9199
Asst. Administrator
*************************

*I did the girl scout thing with my daughter and now my soon-to-be-14 year old son is finding himself in boy scouts. He *LOVES* the outdoorsmanship and survival tactics he is learning and developing. He *LOVES* to hike, as well and is a natural leader.  His troop leaders usually include him in youth leadership groups where they usually only take 14 years & older or first class scouts when he is neither. 

My husband is "involved" as an assistant scoutmaster. I may get involved as well. He is very interested in Venturing which really excites me.

We have come up against some friends who can't believe we continue in the organization with their anti-gay stance, though.

Fortunately, we have not had any leaders or parents be vocal about these types of sentiments in our pack.  

Jared didn't think he would enjoy scouting but he is really finding himself and finding something that helps him self-nurture and I'm SO grateful. I'm sure he will become Eagle but even if he doesn't, I'm happy that this experience is doing so very much for him elsewise and that he's having fun and making friends.


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2012)

Our Scouts (they dropped the 'boy' bit a long time ago) and Guides which are the parent bodies of all other scouting movements, are non political, practice tolerance whatever your religion and sexuality and are a huge influence on the kids who join. Scouts are for boys and girls, Guides have stayed single sex. These organisations aren't just for the white middle class they also work into deprived areas bring activities to inner city kids. 

http://scouts.org.uk/whatwedo
http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us.aspx

I was a Brownies and a Guide and have also been a Cub and a Brownie leader. I'd recommend either of these to anyone child or adult.

The organisations here have a history of doing vital work for the country which was one of the founders Baden Powell's main ideas, that young people would be useful.
http://lesliesguidinghistory.webs.com/guidesatwar.htm


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## Bob Hubbard (Sep 29, 2012)

I enjoyed my time in scouting, even allowing for that 1 winter camp out where all my clothes and sleeping bag ended up in the river.  And that time I lost knife privilages for going spear fishing in the pool. And that time I couldn't figure out owatagoofiam. Because the bug juice was great, the outdoors fun, and being able to swim, and shoot and camp was a ton of fun. It's a damn shame it's so political and exclusive these days. 

I can't help but wonder though, if a political discussion was the intent here, or if it was to see who else was involved and talk about the fun and positive parts of Scouting. The political parts probably are better suited for a Study discussion.


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## jks9199 (Oct 8, 2012)

Posts regarding politics, religion and social equality have been split to a new thread in The Study.  Please continue to keep the discussion civil.

jks9199
Asst Administrator


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## arnisador (Oct 8, 2012)

It sounds like a lot of people don't think the homophobic policy reflects what the BSA wants to stand for and that it's a matter of money--where they get their funding and other forms of support. Is there hope of that changing? Of finding another source of funding?


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## WC_lun (Oct 8, 2012)

The Scouts promote many positive things, such as self reliance, knowledge of nature, working with others, etc.  There are very good reasons many boys and young men enjoy the Scounts.  It is in no way an evil organisation.  My problem is the message sent to these young men.  A boy grows up in the Scouts, progressing as any other young man, until the natural sexual maturation and this same young man discovers he is gay.  Then the sexual leaning of the young man starts taking presidence to those things the Scouts have taught.

Can you imagine if your son has enjoyed the Scouts for his entire life, then told he cannot continue his progression because he is gay, not dependant upon his skills?  This does and has happened.  Life is full of pain, but this particular heartache is caused by the orgisational prejudice of the group he loved.  You would think that the Scouts caring of these young men would not be relegated to thier sexual prefernce as they mature, but rather thier hearts and skills.


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## pgsmith (Oct 9, 2012)

arnisador said:


> It sounds like a lot of people don't think the homophobic policy reflects what the BSA wants to stand for and that it's a matter of money--where they get their funding and other forms of support. Is there hope of that changing? Of finding another source of funding?



I'm afraid not. At the top levels, the BSA is just like any other large US corporation. The CEO is extremely overpaid, as are all the senior executives. They are in it for themselves, not the public. As long as they continue to get their large pay and benefits, nothing will change. It's the same sort of thing that spawned the Occupy movement. Those of us within the system really have no control over it. So, my advice is to continue to promote Scouting for all the good things is does. It's one of the few places still available to young people today that teaches them how to make proper decisions, and how to deal with things when it doesn't work out the way you expected. There will be small ways to try and change things for the better but, in my opinion, shutting the whole thing down would be much worse than maintaining the status quo, as flawed as it is.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2012)

Why is it a corporation? surely like in other countries it should be a charity? Scouting isn't a business.


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## WC_lun (Oct 9, 2012)

It is and it isn't Tez.  It is a charity, but it is also a corporation to protect its' assets.  Those at the top reap huge amounts of money to run the corporation.  This is sad when at the same time you see Scouting camps closed for lack of funding.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 9, 2012)

And even if it was full charity, it needs money to run, electric bills, food, camp staff (even if it were a charity-based organization, I'm assuming they would still need to hire the cooks, health staff, etc.) materials for books/merit badges/anything else, etc. And it's a big organization, so they need a lot of money for each thing, and need funding from somewhere. In other countries it might be able to be completely a charity, but here, even if it were non-profit, people would never donate enough materials/time to make funding unnecessary. Even for something as simple as my Eagle project, i wasn't able to get enough donations to not need fundraising.


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## pgsmith (Oct 9, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Why is it a corporation? surely like in other countries it should be a charity? Scouting isn't a business.



  It is a charity. However, almost all charities today are large corporations. The executives in charge of those charities are paid a salary, usually a very large one. Executives of large charities are generally paid between 25% and 35% of the charity's total expenses. It is only volunteers at the lower levels.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2012)

Each Scout Group here is a separate charity and responsible for fund rasing for it's own needs, they also fund raise to give Headquarters a capitation fee. Cubs, Scouts, Guides etc pay subs every week usually about 50 pence up to a pound to pay for badges and equipment. They save up weekly usually to go on camp.
Camp staff? Cooks? That surprises me because in Scouting and Guiding it's self suffiency,there's no staff as most camps are in fields! Leaders are volunteers, in fact the majority of people in Scouting and Guiding are volunteers. Even the Chief Scout is a volunteer. There's very few paid people, just the chief executive office and a few shop staff.  
There are County Scout camp sites but these are funded by fund raising, grants and donations, again manned by volunteers. 
Scouting has some very high profile supporters here, the Queen was a Guide so donations are generous. fund raising is part and parcel of Scouting and Guiding either for themselves or for other projects.


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## pgsmith (Oct 9, 2012)

> Each Scout Group here is a separate charity and responsible for fund rasing for it's own needs, they also fund raise to give Headquarters a capitation fee.


  Your Scouting Chief Executive is paid quite a bit less than ours, but it is still somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 pounds/year. Your entire executive council seems to be focused a lot more on the good of the youth than ours is though.


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## Tez3 (Oct 9, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Your Scouting Chief Executive is paid quite a bit less than ours, but it is still somewhere in the neighborhood of 150,000 pounds/year. Your entire executive council seems to be focused a lot more on the good of the youth than ours is though.




Not quite sure where you got that figure as the job has just recently been advertised, closing date at the beginning of October and the salary is described as 'competitive'
The main part of the job is fund raising and applying for grants etc, he/she will bring in far more than they cost. Apart from being a good admin person a commitment to Scouting is  a huge part of the job.


On the subject of gay Scouts, the outgoing Chief Executive is responsible for this   http://www.petertatchell.net/intern...ts-condemn-uganda-anti-homosexuality-bill.htm 

*"Full statement by the Scout Association UK *

UGANDA 

Since the mid-1990s, The Scout Association has been clear and unequivocal in our equal opportunities policy and practice especially regarding sexual orientation, as befitting our role in contemporary society. 

We are recently aware that the Ugandan Parliament has received a Bill that calls for the death sentence for repeat practicing of homosexuality. This Bill is presented by a Ugandan MP (David Bahati) who is also currently the National Chairman of the Uganda Scout Association. In terms of our own policies and understandings, we find the Bill not only discriminatory and contrary to the sanctity of life, but also completely incompatible with our interpretation of the values of our worldwide Scouting Movement. 

We have already drawn our grave concerns on this to the attention of the Secretary General of the World Organisation of the Scout Movement (WOSM), and we are subsequently aware that the issues are now subject both to WOSM&#8217;s direct engagement with the Chief Scout of Uganda (Mrs Maggie Kigozi) and to ongoing global consideration by members of the World Scout Committee. 

We hope that the bilateral and very positive educational and solidarity projects that have been fostered for many years between Scout Groups in the UK and Scout Groups in Uganda on such matters as health and community development will not be prejudiced or compromised by this situation; we await the formal and public response from the Scout Association of Uganda and from WOSM, whereupon we will review our position. "

Derek Twine Chief Executive
07889 130 812 (from within the UK) and +44 (0) 7889 130 812 (from overseas). Or 020 8433 7107 or 7261 (from within the UK)


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## arnisador (Oct 21, 2012)

A story from 2010:

[h=1]Boy Scouts tell gay leader to take a hike[/h]



> Jon Langbert of Dallas, Texas, who is openly gay, told HLN's "Prime  News" that he had been wearing the shirt the Scouts gave him last year  with pride. The shirt identified him as a member of the leadership team  that was selling popcorn for a Scout fundraiser.
> 
> 
> But that all  changed last week. "Everything was running along smoothly until some of  the dads complained," he said. When the complaints rose to a higher  level of the Scout leadership, he was asked to stop wearing the shirt  and give up his leadership role, he said.
> ...



Teaching homophobic discrimination doesn't seem like a great way to prepare young people for the 21st century.


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## pgsmith (Oct 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Teaching homophobic discrimination doesn't seem like a great way to prepare young people for the 21st century.






> Our volunteer leadership has elected to keep that policy in place.



  Sounds to me like it's people that need to be changed, not necessarily the BSA, and I never once taught homophobic discrimination in all my years in Scouting. Perhaps you can create a better organization to take the place of Scouting, or are you just whining?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2012)

> "_Everything was running along smoothly until some of the dads complained_


Doesn't sound like BSA's really to blame for this. Sounds more like the parents in that particular troop are the ones who don't like that policy. As I said, in my troops, and the troops I'm familiar with, it is a non-issue. 
and 





> _Our volunteer leadership has elected to keep that policy in place._


HUZZAH!!! You now have a way to fix the problem, become a volunteer leader at a high level, or petition to them to scrap the policy! Maybe, just maybe, you'll have better luck changing the system there than here, trying to get other people to fix the problems you see for you. Unless you dont really care, and just like stirring up trouble :hmm:


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Sounds to me like it's people that need to be changed, not necessarily the BSA



It's official BSA policy. It seems to me like that should be changed. Is Scouting better for this man's expulsion?



> Perhaps you can create a better organization to take the place of Scouting, or are you just whining?



I'm speaking out against discrimination. You're excusing it. If you're happy in an organization that has an official policy of banning people from its membership because they're gay, that's your choice.


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> Doesn't sound like BSA's really to blame for this. Sounds more like the parents in that particular troop are the ones who don't like that policy.



I don't think you read it closely enough--the parents _do _like the discriminatory anti-gay policy, and requested that it be enforced to drive out the gay father.



> trying to get other people to fix the problems you see for you. Unless you dont really care, and just like stirring up trouble :hmm:



They're free to discriminate against people who happen to be homosexual, or who are irreligious--the Supreme Court has upheld their right to do so. It's unfortunate to teach young kids to fear those who are different, though, and they certainly cede any moral highground by doing so. In a case like this the kids in that unit will know what happened--the adults bullied a gay man and kicked him out for being different and indeed because scout policy declares gayness bad. It's a poor lesson for a diverse society--but on the other hand, they will learn how to whittle, after all.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 22, 2012)

arnisador said:


> I don't think you read it closely enough--the parents _do _like the discriminatory anti-gay policy, and requested that it be enforced to drive out the gay father.


That was a grammatical error on my part. Meant do, no idea why I wrote don't.





> They're free to discriminate against people who happen to be homosexual, or who are irreligious--the Supreme Court has upheld their right to do so. It's unfortunate to teach young kids to fear those who are different, though, and they certainly cede any moral highground by doing so. In a case like this the kids in that unit will know what happened--the adults bullied a gay man and kicked him out for being different and indeed because scout policy declares gayness bad. It's a poor lesson for a diverse society--but on the other hand, they will learn how to whittle, after all.


Ok, 2 things. 1. If you really have a problem with it, then join the organization, and try to change it from the inside out. 2. please please please please tell me you don't think all they do is learn how to whittle.  It is much more than that, but if it's a joke I wont go on a rant about it, can't tell through the internet sometimes.


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## arnisador (Oct 22, 2012)

It was a joke about the whittling. I know it's highly variable and that some troops are really active and some mostly just hang out with a wide range in-between.

I wouldn't want to join an organization that endorses homophobia as a core policy. I don't associate with with bigots. Organizations have also been changed by outsiders pointing out the group's negative values. I hope the continued attention it receives for kicking out children who identify as gay or atheist will put some pressure on it to change.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 23, 2012)

Ok, thought it was, just making sure 
And have you spoken to any troop leaders? I think you'll find 90% of the time, they're not bigots, and that 10% you'll find in any group, in BSA(not all boy scouts, just BSA) the 10% is just unfortunately in charge of official policy. However, it seems like I will not be able to convince you to give boy scouts a chance no matter what I say. So rather than continue this pointless arguing, I will say goodbye to this thread.


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## arnisador (Oct 23, 2012)

Official policy dictates what happens. It's the org.'s statement of values. Those 90% (if accurate) are joining a discriminatory org. I don't doubt that there are benefits to doing so--but it still is an endorsement of the group's policy.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 23, 2012)

If I was ever harassed for not following the anti gay policy, I would


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## Makalakumu (Oct 23, 2012)

Let people know what is happening. In a lot of instances, this is all happening with people who don't want to make waves. 

Sorry for the broken post. My phone glitched.


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## bluewaveschool (Oct 23, 2012)

I find it odd that an organization that is so extremely dedicated to keeping open homosexuals out has such a lengthy history of cover ups for pedophiles.  It seems to me that they are saying 'gays are monsters, stay out' while being perfectly fine with real monsters being in the club, as long as they keep it on the down low.


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## granfire (Oct 24, 2012)

bluewaveschool said:


> I find it odd that an organization that is so extremely dedicated to keeping open homosexuals out has such a lengthy history of cover ups for pedophiles.  It seems to me that they are saying 'gays are monsters, stay out' while being perfectly fine with real monsters being in the club, as long as they keep it on the down low.



reminds me of a different organization with similar track record....


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## arnisador (Oct 24, 2012)

Remarkably similar, yeah--and not entirely coincidental, as the same faith is at the root of the issue in both cases.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 24, 2012)

arnisador said:


> Remarkably similar, yeah--and not entirely coincidental, as the same faith is at the root of the issue in both cases.



Look at the monsters over there!


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## shesulsa (Nov 12, 2012)

Things are likely to rapidly degrade for BSA.  They will either be forced to become a LDS organization or change their charter sometime within the next handful of years, no doubt.



> The UPS Foundation posted the following on its site:The UPS Foundation seeks to support organizations that  are in alignment with our focus areas, guidelines, and  non-discrimination policy. UPS and The UPS Foundation do not  discriminate against any person or organization with regard to  categories protected by applicable law, as well as other categories  protected by UPS and The UPS Foundation in our own policies. These  include, but are not limited to race, gender, national origin,  disability, sexual orientation, gender identity, veteran or military  status, pregnancy, age and religion.​UPS confirmed to GLAAD that under these guidelines, which UPS said  have been in development for several months, organizations that are  unable to attest to having a policy or practices that align with the  Foundations non-discrimination policy will no longer be considered  eligible for funding. Prior to The UPS Foundations non-discrimination  language, UPS gave $167,000 to various Boy Scouts of America entities in  2010 and said there would not be a change to grant-making at that time  according to an American Independent  report in September 2012. UPS has consistently received high marks on  the Human Rights Campaign's (HRC) Corporate Equality Index, an annual  survey that rates U.S. corporations on their non-discrimination policies  and practices toward LGBT employees and consumers.



READ THE FULL ARTICLE HERE

Oh the times ... they are a-changin' ....


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## pgsmith (Nov 13, 2012)

Here's an interesting question that I've never seen addressed by any of the myriad folks that want BSA to change their policy. How would you handle camping?

Currently, camps are required to maintain separate men's and women's bathrooms, or have signage that can be prominently displayed so that members of the opposite sex do not have to worry about running into each other there. They are also required to have separate bathing facilities for men and women. So, do you now make three signs? Do you mark off a separate time for gays to use the shower facilities, or do you force every camp to build another set of showers?

Just some things that flitted through my head.


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## WC_lun (Nov 13, 2012)

You do realize that there are already gays in the BSA?  Just like there are already gays in the military already serving.  Allowing gays to do so openly just changes if they are doing so...well openly.  Signs won't need to be changed, nor will bathrroms.  Just like they have not needed to be changed in the military, thousands of thousands of employers, or public facilities.  I don't think anyone has to worry about going to take a shower or a piss and being ogled by the gays.  Otherwise, you'd already know who was gay by who those ogling you every day when you did those things. They don't do it now, so I don't think it is something you will have to worry about.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 13, 2012)

I'm positive I've rolled with gays, showered with em, been in locker rooms with them, etc.  Now, I can't be sure because only 1 time did I know the person I was wrestling was gay. Didn't bother me. Check my *** out all you want, the only thing I question is your sanity.


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## Master Dan (Nov 13, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'm positive I've rolled with gays, showered with em, been in locker rooms with them, etc.  Now, I can't be sure because only 1 time did I know the person I was wrestling was gay. Didn't bother me. Check my *** out all you want, the only thing I question is your sanity.



Oh George not the live stock! what movie was that?


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## elder999 (Nov 14, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Oh George not the live stock! what movie was that?



_Oh brother, where art thou?_


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## arnisador (Nov 14, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Here's an interesting question that I've never seen addressed by any of the myriad folks that want BSA to change their policy. How would you handle camping?
> 
> Currently, camps are required to maintain separate men's and women's bathrooms, or have signage that can be prominently displayed so that members of the opposite sex do not have to worry about running into each other there. They are also required to have separate bathing facilities for men and women. So, do you now make three signs? Do you mark off a separate time for gays to use the shower facilities, or do you force every camp to build another set of showers?
> 
> Just some things that flitted through my head.



Gays go to public school and shower in the locker rooms there. They serve in the military--including in the field. This just isn't an issue.


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> Here's an interesting question that I've never seen addressed by any of the myriad folks that want BSA to change their policy. How would you handle camping?
> 
> Currently, camps are required to maintain separate men's and women's bathrooms, or have signage that can be prominently displayed so that members of the opposite sex do not have to worry about running into each other there. They are also required to have separate bathing facilities for men and women. So, do you now make three signs? Do you mark off a separate time for gays to use the shower facilities, or do you force every camp to build another set of showers?
> 
> Just some things that flitted through my head.



Your camps must be very posh! here camping is in tents in fields, proper camping. There's no bathrooms or showers. If you lay all the comforts of home on for the scouts surely it's cheating them of the experience of looking after themselves? The Cubs here, the young ones go camping as well, in tents.


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## Blindside (Nov 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Your camps must be very posh! here camping is in tents in fields, proper camping. There's no bathrooms or showers. If you lay all the comforts of home on for the scouts surely it's cheating them of the experience of looking after themselves? The Cubs here, the young ones go camping as well, in tents.



I think there is a distinction between BSA "Camps" and camping.  The BSA Camps in are typically summer use facilities that run through hundreds of scouts each week.  The camping facilities in my area ranged from basic open air cabin (three walls, roof, fireplace, bunkbeds) to small wall tents to barracks type sleeping facilities that held about 10.  They did not have electricity.  The Camps did have running water for toilets and showers.  These Camps typically featured full time staff that taught and oversaw various activities to train in for the week like canoeing, archery, marksmanship, and various other merit badges.

This is to differentiate it from "camping" which in my troop at least was usually a fairly rigorous and primitive affair.  Where you pretty much just had the gear you packed in or the shelter that you could build (like igloos and snow caves in the case of our winter camping.)


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2012)

Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.



Pretty much.

When I was in it seems like it was more fun and closer to the original intent, while most of what I hear as of late stinks of political correctness and bs.


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## Blindside (Nov 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Scouting then in America seems to be a long way from B-P's original vision in many things and seems to have almost gone in the polar opposite of everything he was trying to achieve.



Huh, looks like the UK has the exact same thing, except if anythng with far more amenities.  
http://www.scoutactivitycentres.org.uk/whatWeDo/default.asp

Our troop went to our local BSA Camp for one week during the summer.  During that same summer we also programmed two camping trips, one 50 miler and one 20 miler, both under typical primitive camping conditions.  I don't see how having these permanently established facilities somehow detracts from Baden-Powell's vision, not everything has to be a truly primitive situation and the week at the Camp allows a focus on certain activities that individual troops may not have either the skills or facilities to conduct.  In particular I am thinking of the merit badges of marksmanship (typically done with .22 rifles and .50 caliber blackpowder) and archery.  But is just as easily said for canoing or sailing.


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## Tez3 (Nov 14, 2012)

Blindside said:


> Huh, looks like the UK has the exact same thing, except if anythng with far more amenities.
> http://www.scoutactivitycentres.org.uk/whatWeDo/default.asp
> 
> Our troop went to our local BSA Camp for one week during the summer. During that same summer we also programmed two camping trips, one 50 miler and one 20 miler, both under typical primitive camping conditions. I don't see how having these permanently established facilities somehow detracts from Baden-Powell's vision, not everything has to be a truly primitive situation and the week at the Camp allows a focus on certain activities that individual troops may not have either the skills or facilities to conduct. In particular I am thinking of the merit badges of marksmanship (typically done with .22 rifles and .50 caliber blackpowder) and archery. But is just as easily said for canoing or sailing.



That's an activity centre not a camping centre where Scouts camp thats down in the coutnryside. There's a big difference.
It's not that these activity centres detract from B-Ps vision but when this cossetting is all that Scouting is perceived as it seems a very long way from the self suffiency ideals he promoted. Going to learn how to do activities is different from the normal camping scouts do.


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## WC_lun (Nov 14, 2012)

Either way, who is closer to the base dream in thier camping is kind of beside the point, is it not?


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## Blindside (Nov 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That's an activity centre not a camping centre where Scouts camp thats down in the coutnryside. There's a big difference.
> It's not that these activity centres detract from B-Ps vision but when this cossetting is all that Scouting is perceived as it seems a very long way from the self suffiency ideals he promoted. Going to learn how to do activities is different from the normal camping scouts do.



Perhaps this discussion is because of a terminology issue.  We don't have "camping centres," we went out to our National Forests and National Parks to do our camping/hiking etc.  Consider the BSA Camps more like an activity center.


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## shesulsa (Nov 14, 2012)

Blindside said:


> I think there is a distinction between BSA "Camps" and camping.  The BSA Camps in are typically summer use facilities that run through hundreds of scouts each week.  The camping facilities in my area ranged from basic open air cabin (three walls, roof, fireplace, bunkbeds) to small wall tents to barracks type sleeping facilities that held about 10.  They did not have electricity.  The Camps did have running water for toilets and showers.  These Camps typically featured full time staff that taught and oversaw various activities to train in for the week like canoeing, archery, marksmanship, and various other merit badges.
> 
> This is to differentiate it from "camping" which in my troop at least was usually a fairly rigorous and primitive affair.  Where you pretty much just had the gear you packed in or the shelter that you could build (like igloos and snow caves in the case of our winter camping.)



Jared's troop does both. The availability of the BS camp means BSA has priority and a guaranteed spot where they have dedicated rifle and black powder ranges, archery ranges and throwing ranges. Renting commercial ranges costs much more than a maintenance fee for the camp. There are also various levels of camping ... from bunks in the lodge to yurts and platform tents, Adirondacks and tents. 

Jared's troop takes willing boys up to open-air camp on the face of Mt. Saint Helens. J's eligible for snow camp now that he's 14. Build a snow cave... and sleep in it.


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## Blindside (Nov 14, 2012)

shesulsa said:


> Jared's troop takes willing boys up to open-air camp on the face of Mt. Saint Helens. J's eligible for snow camp now that he's 14. Build a snow cave... and sleep in it.



We did our snow camping on Mount Rainier, I was a snow cave convert after two years of spending all morning making igloos.  You could cut a snow cave in about a half hour, you just had to deal with the claustrophobia of having only three feet of headroom and knowing that if it ever collapsed, you were simply dead with about 6-10 feet of snow falling on you.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2012)

Blindside said:


> Perhaps this discussion is because of a terminology issue.  We don't have "camping centres," we went out to our National Forests and National Parks to do our camping/hiking etc.  Consider the BSA Camps more like an activity center.


This is probably the most accurate way to describe it. Troops go there for one week (for the most part) and have fun, learn skills and just do activities/earn merit badges in a semi-outdoors environment. much different than camping. In normal camping, we still learn skills 'on the job' but without any of those luxuries (except bathrooms/outhouse depending on where you're going) and that's about it. MUCH different then the "camps" they're referring to.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2012)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> When I was in it seems like it was more fun and closer to the original intent, while most of what I hear as of late stinks of political correctness and bs.


As I've said many times in these forums, the actual troops don't stink of pc and bs. That's what you see from the outside, and in the administration, but as far as the scouts go, most of them never even hear about the 'pc' issues. For them, it's probably just as fun and close to the original intent as it was for you. And not just assuming that on nothing...some of the scout leaders in my troop, or former scouts in my church were in scouts when they were young, and what they say is very similar to what i experienced as well. also, the scoutmasters see it as basically the same experience that they went through.


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## Blindside (Nov 14, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> As I've said many times in these forums, the actual troops don't stink of pc and bs. That's what you see from the outside, and in the administration, but as far as the scouts go, most of them never even hear about the 'pc' issues. For them, it's probably just as fun and close to the original intent as it was for you. And not just assuming that on nothing...some of the scout leaders in my troop, or former scouts in my church were in scouts when they were young, and what they say is very similar to what i experienced as well. also, the scoutmasters see it as basically the same experience that they went through.



It wouldn't surprise me at all if the current crop of scouts were just as much of little terrorist pyromaniacs as we were.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 14, 2012)

Blindside said:


> It wouldn't surprise me at all if the current crop of scouts were just as much of little terrorist pyromaniacs as we were.


hehehe yup...wait i mean...why would you say such a thing? *gasps in shock* they are all adorable little angels :angel:


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## pgsmith (Nov 15, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> You do realize that there are already gays in the BSA? Just like there are already gays in the military already serving. Allowing gays to do so openly just changes if they are doing so...well openly. Signs won't need to be changed, nor will bathrroms. Just like they have not needed to be changed in the military, thousands of thousands of employers, or public facilities. I don't think anyone has to worry about going to take a shower or a piss and being ogled by the gays. Otherwise, you'd already know who was gay by who those ogling you every day when you did those things. They don't do it now, so I don't think it is something you will have to worry about.



  I disagree completely. I have it on good authority (a couple of gay men that happen to be very close to me) that they very much do notice other men in the showers. One told me that he tried to make sure there are no other men occupying the shower because it is very distracting trying not to look, and it becomes very obvious if he thinks about it too much. What you are trying to tell me is that you would have no problem with using an open shower with several women at the same time and you wouldn't be looking?  Some societies do that, ours does not.

  You have misunderstood the question that I've posed. I knew gays when I was in the military. I knew gays when I was a leader in the Boy Scouts. I don't have a problem with it. However, if you make an official policy, you have to take that into account. Why do *you* think that there are separate facilities for men and women? If a gay man is undergoing sex change therapy, when is he required to start using the other facilities and why? These are the questions that I've not heard anyone address.



			
				Arnisador said:
			
		

> Gays go to public school and shower in the locker rooms there. They serve in the military--including in the field. This just isn't an issue


  It isn't an issue in the military because there is no set policy. It isn't an issue in the schools because they require shorts or trunks in the shower unless the school has individual shower facilities.


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## WC_lun (Nov 15, 2012)

I think you miss my point.  Gays are already using the rest room with you and taking showers with you if you are doing it in a public shower.  As far as taking a shower with a bunch of women, I can't say I wouldn't look, but I can say with a certainty I would not do anything else.  That's because I'm an adult, comfortable with my sexuality, and respect other people, much like 99% of gay people I know. Seems like it isn't gay people you are thinking about, but your own hang ups.

In the off chance you do happen to be hit on by some naked gay guy, here's what you say, "No thanks man.  I'm straight."  Works like a charm. Of course that takes for granted you are someone they would want to hit on just by looking at you.

Your road block to gays being able to be gay openly is it would cost money in building more bathrooms.  It just isn't valid.


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## pgsmith (Nov 15, 2012)

WC_lun said:


> I think you miss my point. Gays are already using the rest room with you and taking showers with you if you are doing it in a public shower. As far as taking a shower with a bunch of women, I can't say I wouldn't look, but I can say with a certainty I would not do anything else. That's because I'm an adult, comfortable with my sexuality, and respect other people, much like 99% of gay people I know. Seems like it isn't gay people you are thinking about, but your own hang ups.
> 
> In the off chance you do happen to be hit on by some naked gay guy, here's what you say, "No thanks man. I'm straight." Works like a charm. Of course that takes for granted you are someone they would want to hit on just by looking at you.
> 
> Your road block to gays being able to be gay openly is it would cost money in building more bathrooms. It just isn't valid.



So, do you actually read other posts, or do you just assume you understand what others are saying? I have no hang ups with gays. My son is gay, a very good friend of mine is gay, the best man at my first wedding was gay. However, the fact is that our society does have lots of hangups, and not just with gay men. Neither you nor I are representative of the majority of US society. Society as a whole will need to address these issues. You may be perfectly comfortable showering in a room fuill of women, _but our society isn't_.

  To say "people should do this" without looking at the whole picture is sticking your head in the sand and hoping for the best. I was hoping to provoke some interesting conversation, but it seems that I was asking for too much actual thought rather than typical visceral reaction. 

Such is life ...


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## WC_lun (Nov 15, 2012)

Everybody is using the restroom with gays.  Everyone taking a public shower is taking one with gays.  Everyone is living thier lives in contact with gays.  People need to realize it and get over it.  The difference is some expect gays to hide who they are and come up with excuses why this should be so, like bathrooms.  It is nonsense, and I don't care if YOU are gay, it is still nonsense.


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