# Shaolin (External) & Wudang (Internal) Martial Arts



## davidleehere (Jul 4, 2011)

All martial arts try to bring the power of your legs into your punches, and Kua is a important bridge that links the lower and upper body. 

According to my studies, in external kungfu, the Shaolin Clan, e.g. Northern Shaolin, Hung-Gar, Wing-Chun, Karate, they tend to lock the lower body to the ground so when your feet steps on the ground, the rebounding force will pass through the Kua (or hip), and gets strengthened by the Kua, Waist, Shoulder, and finally to the tip of the finger. 

In internal Kungfu, the Wudang Clan (normally Tai-Chi, Bagua, and Xing-Yi), power still come from the feet, pass through the Kua, and issued to the tip of the finger. But instead of using the power of the muscles, we use the power of the soft tissues and joints (don't know whether it's the exact word), so first we stay loose and get rid of all the muscle power. That's why you see slow movements in Tai-Chi. When we stay loose for a few years, our body began to unite. What appears to be soft at the beginning becomes hard and powerful. At that time, when we issue power, it's just as powerful as any hard martial arts. It sounds easy to explain but difficult to do.


----------



## Eric_H (Jul 5, 2011)

Your point being?

Also, to be clear, Tai-Chi, Bagua, and Xing-Yi aren't "Wudang" in origin. They are Internal Martial arts, and there are Wudang versions of Taiji, Bagua and Xingyi but they do not encompass the totality or origin of any of those 3 arts.


----------



## geezer (Jul 7, 2011)

davidleehere said:


> All martial arts try to bring the power of your legs into your punches, and Kua is a important bridge that links the lower and upper body.
> 
> According to my studies, in external kungfu, the Shaolin Clan, e.g. Northern Shaolin, Hung-Gar, Wing-Chun, Karate, they tend to lock the lower body to the ground so when your feet steps on the ground, the rebounding force will pass through the Kua (or hip), and gets strengthened by the Kua, Waist, Shoulder, and finally to the tip of the finger.
> 
> In internal Kungfu, the Wudang Clan (normally Tai-Chi, Bagua, and Xing-Yi), power still come from the feet, pass through the Kua, and issued to the tip of the finger. But instead of using the power of the muscles, we use the power of the soft tissues and joints (don't know whether it's the exact word), so first we stay loose and get rid of all the muscle power. That's why you see slow movements in Tai-Chi. When we stay loose for a few years, our body began to unite. What appears to be soft at the beginning becomes hard and powerful. At that time, when we issue power, it's just as powerful as any hard martial arts. *It sounds easy to explain but difficult to do.*



Actually, it sounds "difficult to explain" as well! To a Western mindset, to say that your power generation doesn't have anything to do with muscles simply makes no sense. Saying that you must be loose, relaxed, and avoid muscular tension makes sense. But without some interplay of muscles, there would be no movement. Even a loose whip needs a hand to wield it! Although I practice an "external" art, it is a very soft one, and our teachings state that to develop true skill "First you must get rid of your own power..." This is the hardest thing to grasp. 

For the record, I haven't figured it out yet.


----------



## mook jong man (Jul 7, 2011)

I would say that Wing Chun contains elements of both external and internal Kung Fu depending on who your learning off.
Even in my own lineage I could chose to train under some people where the sparring would be so hard that I could hardly get out of bed in the morning to go to work.

By the same token I could also train under other people where more  emphasis is placed  on stance , relaxation , and refinement of Sil Lum Tao.
They are just two sides of the same coin , and in my opinion to be effective you need to do both .


----------



## clfsean (Jul 7, 2011)

Every CMA has both "internal" and "external" elements. There can't be strictly one or the other. 

For that notion... every MA has both sides of the coin. 

Now some may emphasize one or the other, however both exists within each art & both move you to the same place.


----------



## Quotheraving (Jul 23, 2011)

davidleehere said:


> All martial arts try to bring the power of your legs into your punches, and Kua is a important bridge that links the lower and upper body.
> 
> According to my studies, in external kungfu, the Shaolin Clan, e.g. Northern Shaolin, Hung-Gar, Wing-Chun, Karate, they tend to lock the lower body to the ground so when your feet steps on the ground, the rebounding force will pass through the Kua (or hip), and gets strengthened by the Kua, Waist, Shoulder, and finally to the tip of the finger.
> 
> In internal Kungfu, the Wudang Clan (normally Tai-Chi, Bagua, and Xing-Yi), power still come from the feet, pass through the Kua, and issued to the tip of the finger. But instead of using the power of the muscles, we use the power of the soft tissues and joints (don't know whether it's the exact word), so first we stay loose and get rid of all the muscle power. That's why you see slow movements in Tai-Chi. When we stay loose for a few years, our body began to unite. What appears to be soft at the beginning becomes hard and powerful. At that time, when we issue power, it's just as powerful as any hard martial arts. It sounds easy to explain but difficult to do.



I tend to agree with this, though the distinction isn't all that hard edged.

You are quite correct however about the external arts, but as to the internal... hmm.
I would say the difference is subtle but important and don't think that it has as much to do with connective tissue as  returning the body to a more natural kind of connection. . 

You still use muscles but you use them in a better way.



> Actually, it sounds "difficult to explain" as well! To a Western  mindset, to say that your power generation doesn't have anything to do  with muscles simply makes no sense. Saying that you must be loose,  relaxed, and avoid muscular tension makes sense. But without some  interplay of muscles, there would be no movement. Even a loose whip  needs a hand to wield it! Although I practice an "external" art, it is a  very soft one, and our teachings state that to develop true skill  "First you must get rid of your own power..." This is the hardest thing  to grasp.



I tend to think of this as being like a newton's cradle. If all the balls are lined up well they transmit the force cleanly, but if the balls are out of line they slide out sideways and most of the energy is lost. Muscles are still used, but the emphasis is on maintaining connection through relaxation and so it feels completely different.

Relaxation also helps in other ways such as increased sensitivity (allowing one to feel the state of the opponents structure) and to maintain a clear mind.

Well that's what i think anyhow


----------



## mograph (Jul 23, 2011)

I agree -- I don't think we use the connective tissue or joints in the way we use muscles, because connective tissue doesn't respond to intention. It doesn't initiate action. To elaborate on what Quotheraving wrote, I think we actually use relaxation and alignment to distribute the muscle force more effectively. The result is it feels as if the muscles aren't doing as much work as before.


----------



## Xue Sheng (Jul 25, 2011)

First as previously stated all CMA styles have elements of internal and external and the old saying goes internal goes to external and external goes to internal. Also as stated Taijiquan, Baguazhang and Xingyiqaun do not come from Wudang although the Wudang of today has their own forms of these styles and would REALLY like you to believe that these styles originated from there&#8230;but they didn&#8217;t.

And historically speaking internal and external are categories that one should not focus on or take seriously, IMO. They appear to have come into being as either a political statement against the Qing or as an excuse to save face and not get ones butt kicked. After that it seems to have morphed into a sort of speriortiy complex kind of thing...aka arrogance

And you are not a limp sponge in Taijiquan, Baguazhang and most certainly not in Xingyiquan so you do need to use your muscles... it is just that they need to be relaxed, not tense, to get the force where you want it to be with as little resistance as possible

As to energy; it comes from your root, through the kua and is directed by the waist


----------

