# Buying rank



## boricuatkd (Dec 27, 2005)

Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic). 
The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether  or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock. 
He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time.  But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.


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## Lisa (Dec 27, 2005)

Ummm... OMG!

Boricuatkd, I don't study TKD but umm... I am shocked at his comments and appalled at his odacity!  Exactly what is wrong with your rank at your age?  Does hard work and perseverence not say anything?  

I certainly hope you "recoiled" at his offer!  What he did/said is repulsive and is one of the reasons that Martial Arts have a bad name in this day and age.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 27, 2005)

I wish I could be as shocked as Lisa. I've heard of this & similiar things. (Just ask Terry1965)

There's nothing wrong w/ your rank at your age (what ever either is). I'm glad, too, that his offer bothers you. Although, I would admit that it may tempt me.

What were your husband's thoughts?


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 27, 2005)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
> All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
> The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
> He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.



Well, my reaction is that this is politics and one of the reasons I did not join the KMA's, when I was old enough and out of my house, as my parents did not want me to study. I had friends who had these issues in TKD. Later I learned almost all systems have issues like this. 

Does that make it right? No, so you have to walk the path that is best for you.

Who is you teacher now? I assume your other half as you put it. Are they respected, and currently involved with an organization? If so, then stick with that, and keep yourself to yourself.  In my opinion it is better to be considered a good 1st then a poor 2nd. Of course I am not saying you would make a poor second, as I have not met you at all. 

:asian:


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2005)

Oh, I hear this argument all the time--"I need to be promoted to be respected by my students." My thought is, that tells me all I need to know about the person who says it...


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## MartialIntent (Dec 28, 2005)

boricuatkd, this is real underhand but it's classic sales technique ie. this guy needs you to feel a certain way [doubting your own abilities] just to ensure he can close the sale - and it's working too! 

fwiw, I say, *put your doubts aside* and treat this like any other cold-calling sales person - close the door [or hang up].

Good luck!


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## Jonathan Randall (Dec 28, 2005)

I hate to say it, but it's almost par for the course. Back in the 1980's I was offered a accelerated training and promotion to second or third dan in an art where I was a low brown belt - provided I taught classes gratis. Of course I declined (and later left the system) and the new school never opened.

You have nothing to be concerned about as a first dan instructing in a Dojang under the mgmt. of a higher rank. Heck, your ITF (?) first dan is worth at least a second or third from most commercial TKD schools (I won't mention the McDojang associations, but you know which ones I mean).


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## Jade Tigress (Dec 28, 2005)

MartialIntent said:
			
		

> boricuatkd, this is real underhand but it's classic sales technique ie. this guy needs you to feel a certain way [doubting your own abilities] just to ensure he can close the sale - and it's working too!
> 
> fwiw, I say, *put your doubts aside* and treat this like any other cold-calling sales person - close the door [or hang up].
> 
> Good luck!



I agree 100%. You have _earned _your rank and are qualified and knowledgeable. You may go to other schools and see higher ranks teaching but you don't know if the rank was earned or bought. I'd rather learn from someone who really knows what they're doing than have someone who bought a rank try and teach me. Tell this "master" not to let the door hit him on the way out.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2005)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
> All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
> The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
> He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.


 
IMHO, this person does not seem to be very knowledgeable. What he is failing to see, is that its not going to matter what rank someone is, if they themselves do not have a good understanding of the art, the material, application of the material, then all the rank in the world is not going to matter. Do people look at a high ranked person and think, "WOW! This guy is a "X" degree Black Belt. He must really know his stuff! I want to train under him!!" All the time. Unfortunately, as I said, these people that say that, fall into that high rank trap.

As for not being able to teach because of being a low ranked BB.  Again, rank is not what teaches someone, its skill and knowledge!  To think that you won't be able to learn from someone because they are a 1st degree is crazy.


My advice: Stay clear of this person and anyone that has his thinking. Keep training hard, learn the material, go at your own pace and earn rank the way it should be earned...with lots of sweat and hard work!!

Mike


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I wish I could be as shocked as Lisa. I've heard of this & similiar things. (Just ask Terry1965)
> 
> There's nothing wrong w/ your rank at your age (what ever either is). I'm glad, too, that his offer bothers you. Although, I would admit that it may tempt me.
> 
> What were your husband's thoughts?


 
IcemanSK I'am her better half and I told her not to worry about him. When she is ready for her second I will test her with some other friends of mine until then she is going to teach at my school becouse it is our school.
Terry


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Well, my reaction is that this is politics and one of the reasons I did not join the KMA's, when I was old enough and out of my house, as my parents did not want me to study. I had friends who had these issues in TKD. Later I learned almost all systems have issues like this.
> 
> Does that make it right? No, so you have to walk the path that is best for you.
> 
> ...



MR. Parson I myself is BoriauTKd teacher she is my wife for all of you and I for one do not hand out rank to anyone that is not deserving, but here is the funny thing the Master in question has never said anything to me about this, it is up setting to me. I have been in Ma for over forty years and never have been question about any of my BB. I would not give my wife or my Mother a Bb if they did not deserve it. She is a wonderful student of the Art just not the sport, I will have to have a talk with this other Master for even questioning anything in my school, I'm offended by his action. 
Now for the record everbody who is anybody here on MT knows that BoriauTKD and Terryl 965 are husband and wife in are journey though life, she is everything to me as I'm to her.

Our journey is one for the after life as well soul mate to say in a better word.

TerryL965
AKA Master Terry Lee Stoker
AKA Terry
AKA Stay Puff
AKA GOD BLESS AMERICA

I believe that is all of my little ways of ending a statement.


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## green meanie (Dec 28, 2005)

I don't study TKD either but I think this situation is sucky no matter what art you're in. Just keep doing what you're doing, boricuatkd. It sounds like you and terryl965 have a good thing going there.


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## arnisador (Dec 28, 2005)

I've seen it tried in academics too--"I need to be promoted to associate prof. early to be respected by the people I work with in industry."


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## TigerWoman (Dec 28, 2005)

IMO, that "master" just demoted himself all the way to white belt.  Start over with the tenets sir! How about integrity?   Well, I know that your school and master, Master Stoker has that. We in TKD need more of these type of schools and zero of the others who allow politics and "buying" of rank. He should be reported to the WTF.  Isn't the new governing body trying to clean some of this up? All black belts are instructors BTW. That's how instructors are trained until at master you form your own school.  TW


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## Flying Crane (Dec 28, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Oh, I hear this argument all the time--"I need to be promoted to be respected by my students." My thought is, that tells me all I need to know about the person who says it...


 
Of course if your students already respect you, of what need is the promotion?


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Dec 28, 2005)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But ITo put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
> The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
> He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse.


 
To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or  (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed. 

Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.

Many people received their high Dan rank due to this option and it is not considered illegitimate in Japan. 

There is also Option 3, which is "honorary" dank (Mei-yo Dan) given to people who gave a significant contribution to the growth of Wadokai in a country. But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade.

Off course I could be WAY OFF.. after all, TKD is Korean and Karate is Japanese.. maybe there are differences in culture which I don't understand..


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## IcemanSK (Dec 28, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> IcemanSK I'am her better half and I told her not to worry about him. When she is ready for her second I will test her with some other friends of mine until then she is going to teach at my school becouse it is our school.
> Terry


 
Wow Terry, you seem to be a magnet for folks wanting to do an end-around-rank thing, lately. Huh? 

I have no doubt that she is the rank she needs to be & promotion will come in time. Lord knows high rank doesn't mean someone teaches better.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Wow Terry, you seem to be a magnet for folks wanting to do an end-around-rank thing, lately. Huh?
> 
> I have no doubt that she is the rank she needs to be & promotion will come in time. Lord knows high rank doesn't mean someone teaches better.


 
 That is because until I tested last December 2004 I did not test for since 1985, now everybody is saying since I have the time in I should just be at my rightful place with all the others.
Not to sound arrogant or anything but the rank thing does not brother me as much as it does for everybody else. At my level I can get my students Kukkiwon if they want without anybody else and that is what matters to me. 

It does disturb me about this guy saying anything about my student(wife), as he knows she has been training longer than alot of people who are already a third, we try to make everyone complete before giving rank the techniques come before rank in my eye's.
Terry


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## boricuatkd (Dec 28, 2005)

I really appreciate everyone's comments. Just to be clear, I wasn't really doubting my abilities as much as being angry at his approaching this with me. The person in question has known us since we opened our school, seen me train, seen me teach, spar, and even compete.Then for him to turn around and say these things to me after all this time just ticked me off royally. The what was worse that he discusses the topic when my other half not even around. Our acquaintance argument is that its what you need to do because tkd is now a commercial art. Can you belive that? TKD a commercial art. But then again I have come across some instructors that claim to be masters. After meeting their grand masters I find out that 2 of them never even passed their black belt tests. Go figure.


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## IcemanSK (Dec 28, 2005)

Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."

Just a thought.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 28, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."
> 
> Just a thought.


 
That could be, but then again it comes with a price tag...


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## Gemini (Dec 28, 2005)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> Perhaps (bare with me here) it was meant as a compliment. (Albeit a back-handed & odd one) As in "you should be higher rank because you're at a higher skill level."
> 
> Just a thought.


 
Personnally, after reading all the posts, I think you may well be correct. I can't tell you how many times, having a Korean Master, we've unintentionally insulted each other due to nothing more than cultural differences. This isn't a traveling salesman in a plaid coat. It's an old associate. I can certainly see how you'd get bent over it, but try to look at it from the manner it was intended as opposed to the manner it was received. It can and often does change things. Believe me, I know.


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## terryl965 (Dec 28, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Personnally, after reading all the posts, I think you may well be correct. I can't tell you how many times, having a Korean Master, we've unintentionally insulted each other due to nothing more than cultural differences. This isn't a traveling salesman in a plaid coat. It's an old associate. I can certainly see how you'd get bent over it, but try to look at it from the manner it was intended as opposed to the manner it was received. It can and often does change things. Believe me, I know.


 
Gemini you and Iceman may be correct in your words of wisdom. I should always try to see the light before the night.
Terry


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## tshadowchaser (Dec 28, 2005)

I am glad someone saw a positive in the offer to promote someone skipping grades for money.  i know this has been done befor and will continue to be done but I personaly find it insulting.  It is buying rank not testing up through the ranks.
The lady may be qualified for higher tank but that should be determined by her instructor or his (and we have heard from her instructor)
If someone in any organisation I belonged to was a first dan one day and a fifth the next I would consider that promotin a joke unless they had been a first for many many many years .
I do know of a school in my area where the instructors wife never tested in front of the school but would go to camp/seminars and pay good money then come back with a higher rank  Her skill never improved but she strutted around more.


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## Gemini (Dec 28, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> I am glad someone saw a positive in the offer to promote someone skipping grades for money.


 
If you're referring to my post, I'm not offering this as a positive. I'm offering it as a possibility that things may not be what they appear, and the intent, though certainly insulting to us, was not meant to be so. Nothing more.


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2005)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed.
> 
> Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.
> 
> ...


 
Usually, high rank is often awarded after a significant time in grade and contribution to the art is put in.  I took the original post as boricuatkd being offered high rank because it would make both the school look better as well as a better impression in the eyes of the students.  Not a good thing IMO.

Mike


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## MJS (Dec 28, 2005)

tshadowchaser said:
			
		

> If someone in any organisation I belonged to was a first dan one day and a fifth the next I would consider that promotin a joke unless they had been a first for many many many years .


 
Exactly!  Personally, I want to earn my rank, not have it handed to me.




> I do know of a school in my area where the instructors wife never tested in front of the school but would go to camp/seminars and pay good money then come back with a higher rank Her skill never improved but she strutted around more.


 
And most likely, in the eyes of the students at that school, they probably thought that she was deserving of it and that she had great skill.  As I said before, there's no short cut.  If someone is a low rank and they have poor skill, I don't know what putting on a high rank will do for them.  Either way, their skill level will still be low and it will show.

Mike


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 29, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> MR. Parson I myself is BoriauTKd teacher she is my wife for all of you and I for one do not hand out rank to anyone that is not deserving, but here is the funny thing the Master in question has never said anything to me about this, it is up setting to me. I have been in Ma for over forty years and never have been question about any of my BB. I would not give my wife or my Mother a Bb if they did not deserve it. She is a wonderful student of the Art just not the sport, I will have to have a talk with this other Master for even questioning anything in my school, I'm offended by his action.
> Now for the record everbody who is anybody here on MT knows that BoriauTKD and Terryl 965 are husband and wife in are journey though life, she is everything to me as I'm to her.
> 
> Our journey is one for the after life as well soul mate to say in a better word.
> ...



Terry it is Rich. 

It was not brought up in thread so I made a comment, that was nto meant to be a slight towards you ro your wife. 

I think we are on the same page here.


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## terryl965 (Dec 29, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Terry it is Rich.
> 
> It was not brought up in thread so I made a comment, that was nto meant to be a slight towards you ro your wife.
> 
> I think we are on the same page here.


 
 I do believe so sir (rich)
Terry


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Dec 29, 2005)

I taught at red belt in my instructors class to make myself ready for black belt. And at black belt I taught ALOT! Whoever said this to you is pretty low and outspoken. It is very dishonorable and insulting to be a first degree and have an upper rank tell you you shouldn't be teaching. It almost begs the question as to wether he bought his rank or not. Ranks should be earned not bought. This is a horrible thing happening in all martial arts today and, frankly I find it disgusting. What could that rank really mean to you if you just bought it? I'm very glad you weren't even tempted by his offer. If I was you, I would've recoiled at him in shock and disgust. I've never seen this happen in TKD, but my instructor would sooner jump into a lake filled with crocodiles then let someone buy a rank off him. Don't be insulted by someone who suggests such a thing to you.

Becky


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## Fluffy (Dec 29, 2005)

Well after reading all the posts I want to point a couple issues out.

A) There has alway been some type of barter attatched to passing on knowlege, testing for higher rank unfortunetly is tied as well thru most systems.

B) The rank recognised thru most systems as "elligible" for instructor status is 3rd Dan.  I believe the WTF is 4th Dan.  I know a couple 2nd Dans who asked to open a school and were denied because of their rank.

C) As long as it was not and quick advancement, and more of a place for advancement........I do not see the problem.  You need the time in rank, you need to be able to do the required techniques, you need a way to advance in rank.

These are just thoughts I had reading through this thread, I do not really know anything about any of you, I'm sure you have all earned your rank.  I have a basic rule of thumb for advancement, one year per degree (dan).  Meaning 1st degree, one year constant training, 2nd degree, two years constant training, 3rd degree three years constant training......and on.  I think the WTF is the same way, and I may be wrong....yet again.

For me.....I spent 1 year between 1st and 2nd, 3 year between 2nd and 3rd, 7 years between 3rd and 4th, and 5 years between 4th and 5th.....so you can see the time in rank is a minumum, and not an end all.

For those who sell rank......they need to read up on the tennents of TKD.


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## FearlessFreep (Dec 29, 2005)

_The rank recognised thru most systems as "elligible" for instructor status is 3rd Dan. I believe the WTF is 4th Dan. I know a couple 2nd Dans who asked to open a school and were denied because of their rank._

Ironically, I trained under a 2nd Dan (who was not WTF formally) who had such high standards that when I went to a new school as 4th gup I tested up to 3rd gup in a month een though I was three months short at time-at-belt to test for 3rd gup under my prior instructor.  Not that the new place was easy but my first instructor had been very demanding


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## terryl965 (Dec 29, 2005)

Well I have a different approach about "RANK", you can not and will not test at my school if you can not explain the principle behind every tech. that you have learn through me. I.E. I'm talking about adults only, if you are a true student of the "ART" not the sport you have to understand each and every movement to the tech, just not preform them.
Terry


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## TigerWoman (Dec 29, 2005)

We are WTF. I believe that a black belt is an instructor in his school and is "in training" until the 4th dan test, at least that is how it was explained by the master/owner of my school.  As such, a black belt can open a school under the master's auspices and conduct classes therefore is an instructor and can collect student tuition.  I know of several of our student black belts that do that and some pay their own expenses therefore the tuition is theirs.  But in other satellite schools, the master teaches one day of the week and the lst black belts the other days.  There is a split there.  But when testing comes, all students come to the home school and pay the master for testing fees.  Those are not split.  I think this is right since he has, after all, trained all of us and until we become masters, we are still in training. Though when someone gets to master, 4th dan as only one I've seen, he goes on his own and opens his own separate school. BTW, I'm a 2nd dan. TW


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## Fluffy (Dec 30, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Well I have a different approach about "RANK", you can not and will not test at my school if you can not explain the principle behind every tech. that you have learn through me. I.E. I'm talking about adults only, if you are a true student of the "ART" not the sport you have to understand each and every movement to the tech, just not preform them.
> Terry


 
When you say "adults only" do you mean just for the test, or do you not have children at your school?


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2005)

Fluffy said:
			
		

> When you say "adults only" do you mean just for the test, or do you not have children at your school?


 
Yes we have childern at the school but them being able to fully understand every technique is well asking a child to be in college at that age, one in a million will be able to dao that. Now when they test for there adult BB they have got to know every movement.
Terry


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## Fluffy (Dec 30, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Yes we have childern at the school but them being able to fully understand every technique is well asking a child to be in college at that age, one in a million will be able to dao that. Now when they test for there adult BB they have got to know every movement.
> Terry


 
Interesting, and you promote them with the adults?


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2005)

Fluffy said:
			
		

> Interesting, and you promote them with the adults?


 
No they are pooms and they test with the childern, the adults test with aduls only.
Master Fluffy you do relize that Kukiwon childern that obtain BB are pooms until they reach a certain age and than can file for there Dan rank with the Kukkiwon, well at my school they need to re-test for there adult BB at that time.
I understand the ITF promote childern are they with the adult class, I would imagine not and I know the ATA does not promote childern with adults, they test seperately. I hope I have explain well enough for you sir.
Master Stoker


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## Fluffy (Dec 30, 2005)

Both the ATA and ITF promote children as black belts as per the Generals wishes......I've heard of poom belts but it has never been explained to me.

Check out the ATA at www.ATAonline.com 

Then you go ahead and promote children up to Shodan with the adults?  (a child green belt is an adult green belt)

Please excuse my ignorance here, I have never studied under the WTF....just don't understand the set rules for you guys.  And in no way am I trying to make this that old (should children be Black Belts) debate.


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## terryl965 (Dec 30, 2005)

Fluffy said:
			
		

> Both the ATA and ITF promote children as black belts as per the Generals wishes......I've heard of poom belts but it has never been explained to me.
> 
> Check out the ATA at www.ATAonline.com
> 
> ...


 
It is quite alright we all are here to learn and widen are herizon. I'm glad to discuss every aspect of the Art. I'm only here to promote the Arts not to disrupt them. I have the opmost respect for all MA'ers and you have been very forth right in your question, I'm mearly trying to explain the best as I can through a chat line.
Consameda
Terry


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## hong kong fooey (Dec 30, 2005)

I agree that was totaly uncalled for. it does not matter if you are a 1 dan or not. once you get the rank of black belt you can teach


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## Gemini (Dec 30, 2005)

hong kong fooey said:
			
		

> I agree that was totaly uncalled for. it does not matter if you are a 1 dan or not. once you get the rank of black belt you can teach


With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool" 

Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.


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## Fluffy (Dec 30, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"
> 
> Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.


 
Yup, Shodan does not mean much - only that you know the basics. Those who understand teach.......

I know plenty of 1 & 2 dans who could not teach their way out of a paper bag......

-Fluff


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Dec 30, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"
> 
> Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.



With all due respect to you, gemini, I am a first dan and teach classes, but I do not consider myself a master, because I know I'm not and never will consider myself a master, because I believe no one is a master of martial arts. Martial arts is a constantly changing universe, and everyone can always learn something new from it, wether you are a white belt or a 6th dan. I also don't believe you have to be a so called "master" to teach classes. I was teaching classes and white belts at red belt level for two reasons: One, to make myself ready to know how to teach classes when I was a black belt and two, my instructor needed the help. At black belt, you know pretty much the basics (if you go to a good school). That's what the color belts are trying to learn, the basics. Therefore, since you know the basics at first dan and the color belts want to learn the basics, a fisrt dan should be able to teach classes. As for opening a school under no other higher dan instructor, I'm not too sure about that. I wouldn't open a school on my own till at least 3rd dan, but that's just me.

Becky


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## Gemini (Dec 30, 2005)

beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> With all due respect to you, gemini, I am a first dan and teach classes, but I do not consider myself a master, because I know I'm not and never will consider myself a master, because I believe no one is a master of martial arts. Martial arts is a constantly changing universe, and everyone can always learn something new from it, wether you are a white belt or a 6th dan. I also don't believe you have to be a so called "master" to teach classes. I was teaching classes and white belts at red belt level for two reasons: One, to make myself ready to know how to teach classes when I was a black belt and two, my instructor needed the help. At black belt, you know pretty much the basics (if you go to a good school). That's what the color belts are trying to learn, the basics. Therefore, since you know the basics at first dan and the color belts want to learn the basics, a fisrt dan should be able to teach classes. As for opening a school under no other higher dan instructor, I'm not too sure about that. I wouldn't open a school on my own till at least 3rd dan, but that's just me.
> 
> Becky


That's fine, Becky. As I stated, there are exceptions and I have no issue about a BB instructing under the guidence of a master. But to make a blanket one-size-fits-all comment like:



			
				hong kong phooey said:
			
		

> once you get the rank of black belt you can teach


well, we'll agree to disagree here. Vehemently! I've seen too many students injured from know-it-all, wanna-be's who though, may be very capable practioners in their own right, do not have the ability to convey their knowledge to others. Little if any knowledge of body mechanics, development of mental toughness, the list goes on and on. It's not important that you know how your body mechanics work, you need to know how MY body mechanics work. Teaching is not knowing. Teaching is the ability to convey to others what you know in a means that they can learn it. It takes years of tuteladge.

If you feel that you are one of those exceptions, fine. So be it. Maybe you are. But understand that just as you feel you have the right to teach, you then must also must accept my right to say "not me or my kids you don't." I'm only a 2nd dan and one of those people who knows not that he knows not, even though I have several years of tuteladge.


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2005)

I see a very interesting side thread coming on here.  In the past, say back in the 1950s thru 1980s, is seems that earning blackbelt was accepted as a teaching certificate.  For example, there is another thread in the Kenpo section where someone posted a copy of Ed Parker's blackbelt certificate that he received from William Chow. The certificate ranks Mr. Parker at First degree black belt (or perhaps it was simply "black belt"), but also gives him authoritiy as an instructor.  Very few people back then held higher level rank than first or second degree.  What is it that now makes us say that a person at this level is no longer qualified to teach?  It sometimes seems like the prevalence of high rank is a new phenomenon.  Have standards or quality changed, so that today's first degrees are not on the same level as those from the earlier era (I personally believe that in many cases this is true) and no longer deserve the teacher authority?  Is it easier today to receive higher rank than it was then?  Is it all about marketing, money, control and power?  Has the development of organizations and governing bodies contributed to this?  Keep in mind, these organizations and their rankings, rules and regulations mean nothing to those who do not belong to them.  There are some very good Independents who don't care about rank, or other's opinions, who do a hell of a job as martial artists, and instructors.

I think there are valid arguments both ways, that have been posted in this thread.  I think that both Beauty in the Sai and Gemini have made statements that I can agree with.  What do others think?

Personally, I believe we have all become too fixated on rank.  Too many black belt levels, and too many titles attached to them.  Too many rules about to what level an instructor can promote a student (two levels below the instructor, for example), before he needs to appeal to those "higher up".

I have stated this before, but I will state it again, as food for thought.  What if we eliminated all the high black belt levels, and the titles that go with it?  What if we had only two black belt rankings: Black Belt Non-Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor.  Once someone is given Instructor authority, that is it.  He can teach all he wants, and can promote students all he wants, including to Instructor level.  No questions.  No further rankings.  Instructor authority could be granted at the same time Black Belt is granted, or it could be granted at a later date, or never, depending on what is warranted, and the judgement of the instructor.  Of course this does not put an Instructor on any kind of pedestal.  We all know that we have more to learn, and we know who is better than us, but why keep dangling the carrot in front of us?  At this level we shouldn't need the carrot, or I say we wouldn't deserve our rank if we did.

Just my thoughts...


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Dec 30, 2005)

I think some people just forget that not all first dans, like most belts, are created equal. I'm not the best first dan nor am I the worst. I've beat up 3rd dans that "said they were third dans". So would you want that third dan that got beat up by a first dan teaching you, just because of his rank? If people can just buy ranks, what does rank really mean? I'm only proud of my first dan because I know I earned it. 

Becky


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## green meanie (Dec 30, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Personally, I believe we have all become too fixated on rank. Too many black belt levels, and too many titles attached to them. Too many rules about to what level an instructor can promote a student (two levels below the instructor, for example), before he needs to appeal to those "higher up".
> 
> I have stated this before, but I will state it again, as food for thought. What if we eliminated all the high black belt levels, and the titles that go with it? What if we had only two black belt rankings: Black Belt Non-Instructor, and Black Belt Instructor. Once someone is given Instructor authority, that is it. He can teach all he wants, and can promote students all he wants, including to Instructor level. No questions. No further rankings. Instructor authority could be granted at the same time Black Belt is granted, or it could be granted at a later date, or never, depending on what is warranted, and the judgement of the instructor. Of course this does not put an Instructor on any kind of pedestal. We all know that we have more to learn, and we know who is better than us, but why keep dangling the carrot in front of us? At this level we shouldn't need the carrot, or I say we wouldn't deserve our rank if we did.
> 
> Just my thoughts...


 
Now you're sounding like me on this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19761


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## Flying Crane (Dec 30, 2005)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Now you're sounding like me on this thread: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19761


 
spread the good word!


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Dec 30, 2005)

Green meanie, I love your avatar!

Becky


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## green meanie (Dec 30, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> spread the good word!


 
LOL! I'm trying.


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## green meanie (Dec 30, 2005)

beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> Green meanie, I love your avatar!
> 
> Becky


 
Hee hee. Thanks.


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## boricuatkd (Dec 30, 2005)

I have read through several of the latest comments on my post. Once again, i thank you all for your thoughts on this issue. Personally, I agree with the comment made earlier abour the fixation on rank, to some point. In the martial arts community, especially in tkd, there is the feeling that to be truly accepted in the ranks of bb. you need to be 3rd or higher because supposedly you are now truly "qualified" to pass on you knowledge. Now, I don't have as many years of training as my other half does, but the years that I have been training I have been at schools where becoming a bb whether it was poom or dan meant that you were are just now beginning on your true journey into the arts. It was believed that part of that journey was to be able to pass on what your teacher/master has taught you. Now not everyone is capable of doing that. There are many peopl out there who wonderful "students" but when comes to being "teachers" its just not in them. At some the schools I have visited, I seen 17 year bbs. do a better job at "teaching"  than instructors with 3rd and 4th degrees bbs at the same school. Now does this mean that those young men know more than those instructors? No by no means do they probably have the level of knowledge or experience. But what it does mean ( at least in my opinion ) that they may have a better understanding of the break down /application or at least a better understanding on how to teach or model to some one what they need to learn. Its like in teaching: there are so many people who teach as a profession but very few are truly teachers. I wish I had a penny for every teacher who is there for a pay check and summer vacations off. But the truth of the matter is not everyone is cut out to be a teacher. (academically or in martrial arts) To be true teacher comes from the heart. Its the love of passing on what you have learned and the love for what you hoping to teach. Understanding how to pass this on to students is what makes a good teacher in alll walks of life.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 30, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> With all due respect, that's a huge over-generalization. Most 1st dans know just enough to be dangerous from a Master's point of view. If that were true, why then do we need masters? We could all just get our BB's and be masters. There's an old saying "He who knows not that he knows not, becomes a fool"
> 
> Of course there are exceptions. But that's what they are. Exceptions.



I think that Black Belts should be able to teach. They should be able to teach the basics, and be able to help get students moving and understanding. Full understanding may require someone of more rank and knowledge to move them forward.

Now I do not think, and a 1st degree is not the one who should be teaching other black belts no matter the rank, but to teach the color belts the basics, it should be alright. If they cannot then maybe my understanding of a Black Belt is different than yours.


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## Gemini (Dec 31, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I think that Black Belts should be able to teach.


 Blanket generalization I disagree with. However, you then go on to point out more specific instances that I do agree with.



			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> They should be able to teach the basics, and be able to help get students moving and understanding. Full understanding may require someone of more rank and knowledge to move them forward.
> 
> Now I do not think, and a 1st degree is not the one who should be teaching other black belts no matter the rank, but to teach the color belts the basics, it should be alright.


I agree with this at least to the point that it is a possibility. But, only (in most cases) under the tuteladge of a more experienced instructor. We all have to learn to teach, before we can teach.
This appears to be were the debate enters. What does everyone mean by teach? My reference is not to the ones who are learning to teach under a senior instructor, it's when we see a black belt go off with no further guidence and start teaching. Their knowledge is still extremely limited.




			
				Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> If they cannot then maybe my understanding of a Black Belt is different than yours.


 Why? Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you? We weren't all blessed with that ability. Again, it isn't specific instances I referred to. It's the sweeping generalization that I can't accept.



			
				beauty_in_the_sai said:
			
		

> I think some people just forget that not all first dans, like most belts, are created equal.


 Kind of ironic that this is exactly what I was trying to say in the fiirst place. You're 100% right. Not all are created equal, so how should it be that ALL can teach? I will disagree with you next statement though. This is were I think you and I part ways. You beat up bunches of 3rd degrees. How is that relevant to their ability to teach and convey information? Or yours for that matter. Ones ability to fight has very little to do with ones ability to teach. We can't all be the toughest. There are students in my school lower than myself that could probably beat me, but I have many more years of instructing than they do. By this standard, they are automatically better teachers than me? 

boricuatkd, What a great post! I hadn't addressed rank per sey except for the masters, but experience and the ability to convey information to others outweighs rank? Yes. I agree. It seems the disconnect is caused by continuing to tie ones physical ability in with ones teaching ability. The 2 have very little to do with each other.


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## green meanie (Dec 31, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> It seems the disconnect is caused by continuing to tie ones physical ability in with ones teaching ability. The 2 have very little to do with each other.


 
Agreed. But both can and (in my opinion) should be taught. Or...



			
				Gemini said:
			
		

> Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you?


 
...exactly. No black belt for you.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 31, 2005)

Gemini said:
			
		

> Blanket generalization I disagree with. However, you then go on to point out more specific instances that I do agree with.



Never said I had the only right answer. 



			
				Gemini said:
			
		

> I agree with this at least to the point that it is a possibility. But, only (in most cases) under the tuteladge of a more experienced instructor. We all have to learn to teach, before we can teach.



And I think this should be done at the higher ranks before Black Belt so they have a basic understanding of how to teach. Even if they are not cut out for it. They have been through the basics of being in front of a class and demonstrating and explaining. The more expereinced could even be part of the class, and then give feedback after wards both publically and in private. 



			
				Gemini said:
			
		

> This appears to be were the debate enters. What does everyone mean by teach? My reference is not to the ones who are learning to teach under a senior instructor, it's when we see a black belt go off with no further guidence and start teaching. Their knowledge is still extremely limited.



To open your own school and to be able to not continue your training?  I would think of this as a bad thing. You should have regular check ups and even from your instructor or organization by having people come in and teach a class and or in promoting your students. 

I think of teaching as when I say to Person X, go teach the class techniques a,b & c.  Or someone of rank, Black Belt or higher who could cover a class with what they know, if I have had an emergency and had to be elsewhere. 



			
				Gemini said:
			
		

> Why? Even though someone may be an exceptional practitioner, they must also have the ability to teach or no black belt for you? We weren't all blessed with that ability. Again, it isn't specific instances I referred to. It's the sweeping generalization that I can't accept.



I agree that some are great practitioners and nowhere capable of being able to teach at all. Yet I think they should have the basics, to understand how teaching is done. By explaining how something is done, enlightenment may occur. It also lets people understand how people teach and also learn.

I never said that every black belt will go out and open a school and teach great fighters.


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## bluemtn (Dec 31, 2005)

I think that at black belt, you can teach.  Be the master-  not for everyone.  I've seen too many brown and black belts (1st dan, even 4th dan) who really can't teach worth a flip, and therefore shouldn't.   Everone has their own individual reasons for being in MA.  For some, it's just to say they are such-and-such rank, and nothing more.


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## Fluffy (Dec 31, 2005)

IMNSHO 1st Dan's can assist, 2nd Dan's can teach by themselves - but under the guidence of a senior, 3rd Dans can actually own a club.......there should be some training involved, this schedule should cover it.


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## green meanie (Dec 31, 2005)

Fluffy said:
			
		

> IMNSHO 1st Dan's can assist, 2nd Dan's can teach by themselves - but under the guidence of a senior, 3rd Dans can actually own a club.......there should be some training involved, this schedule should cover it.


 
I think this tends to be the standard that most systems follow. We use it and it's worked well for us.


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## Kacey (Jan 4, 2006)

To answer the original question - if you're happy, and the school is happy, I don't think it makes that much difference. I began teaching a kids' class on Saturday mornings affiliated with (but separate from) my instructor's class when I was a I Dan. That class continued, in one incarnation or another, through to this day. By the time I was a II Dan, the class had moved to a separate location, which is where it is now, although his color belt students visit my class and mine visit his, and the monthly red/black belt class is held at his facility, and we trade off teaching it (I'm now a IV Dan). While I understand the historical perspective, and think that the gentleman in question was complimenting you, I also understand your reaction. I was a pretty slow tester (for several reasons, largely involving graduate school) and spent 7 years as a II Dan - but it wasn't a problem for me or for my students.

To answer the other point that came up through this thread, I know plenty of students who would not be able to teach an independent class at I Dan, although they are certainly able to assist or teach smaller groups - some because they are not able to explain, and some because they don't THINK they are able to explain (some correctly, and some not). I do think that all black belt students should help with the class, and there are quite a few ways they can do it - but I also know of an instructor who was promoted to VII Dan (which is Master Instructor in the ITF) without ever being an independent instructor - said person taught in other peoples' schools on a regular but not always predictable schedule, and never had personal students (that is, students who consider said person to be their own instructor), and certainly never took a student from white belt to black belt - at that point, HOW can you be a Master Instructor if you've never been a student's instructor? Therefore, I do think that, as you get farther up the rank levels, you should be required to teach, at least to the extent described (having individual students, and having at least 1 travel from white belt to black belt with you as an instructor) - how else can you be a master instructor, if you've never been an instructor? But that's just my opinion.


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 4, 2006)

So long as you know what you are teaching I dont see a problem. I really would not worry about what some guy like that said, he is obviously out to make a buck if he was to refer you to someone who would skip rank for you.  As far as Shodan goes, I dont see a problem not only with you teaching but with you opening up a school, why not?  There is a guy out in Miami that teaches Shotokan and with him it can take anywhere from 5-7 years to get Shodan with others by that time you may already have a nidan not be anywhere as knowledgeable as his Shodan BB's.  Dont worry about what that guy said, if you know what you are doing then that is all that should matter.


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## DArnold (Jan 5, 2006)

jujutsu_indonesia said:
			
		

> To my knowledge, this is not as offensive at it sounds. In Japan, there are two ways to get rank: (1) by technical testing in front of a grading committee, or (2) by recommendation. Option 1 is so very very very hard, for example, out of hundreds of people tested for 8th Dan in JKF-Wadokai last year, only one passed.
> 
> Option 2 will be given based on an individual's contribution to the ryuha/style and organizations and his time in grade. Off course the "contributions" could also means "financial". However, (if I am not mistaken), those who receive their high Dan rank through option 2 would still have to pass their 1st and 2nd Dan by actual testing through their sensei and/or through a grading committee, before they will be considered to receive their subsequent Dan levels through option 2. So option 2 is really just for 3rd dan and above.
> 
> ...


 
IMHO - I think these *ARE* as offensive as they sound because *they are just excuses.* Excuses for whatever reasons. And if this is acceptable in the the Japan system you are talking about it shows you the quality/integrity of that system. That no matter what the rank... 

in this system you don't know if they are a capable black belt or just a paper pusher...

Everyone wants their rank to mean something and if you know how the original color of the belt system came about then you know why. It comes from time, blood, sweat, & tears.

Let's face it, many martial artists/organizations are just in the game to make a quick buck. I have been with several Oriental instructors and even though they profess that their goal is to make their students better than themselves, I noticed that they never gave me everything. If they did I wouldn't come back and then they would loose money.

As for your examples, it's degrading to anyone in any art that has ever had to really earn a rank.

As for your points: 
1) That's ok that people fail. I would immagine that most martial artist agree that 8th Dans should not be handed out like a glass of water.

2) Nope, doesn't hold water either as this means that a high rank in this organization means you are good at paperwork, or fundraising, or cleaning the gym, or whatever... other than the actual art itself. This again demeans all those who have worked hard to achieve the rank.

3) *"But off course this is just "honorary" and the recipient cannot claim to possess the skill level of his honorary grade."* So does this mean that you don't respect their rank??? So many people have given Chuck Norris an honary rank that it is silly. They usually just want to clime on the gravy train and try to associat themselves with someone famous.

Right now the ITF has fractured into 4 factions (as most dictatorships do) so each fraction is drastically dropping their requirments to gain numbers and $$$ as they squabble over who is more valid. They are handing out rank to students like water. And we all know that validity comes from $$, numbers, and rank.   In some we refer to their test times as "In dog years" 

How many people have you walked up to and said, "oh I would respect your rank but you gained it becuase you were good at paperwork" or "your rank is just honarary"  If you want to sell it, or give it for other reasons than MA's or honarary, then make it a "Pink Belt". That way we all know it was for something other than MA's 

I doubt it, when you put on the belt you are showing to the world that you are that rank. And for the above reasons this is what has given martial arts a bad name.

We jokeingly reffer to what happened to you as *"Crossing the Internation Dan Line"* - each time you cross it flying West (or is it East) you gain a couple of Dans 

You did the right thing by thinking this Master was a sham.  Follow your training and not a person. Keep your integrity intact.

Many have said you need to be a black belt to teach.  Not really so.  I have known many that started teaching at Green or Blue.  Simply because they had a love for the art and there was no one else.  So they stepped up to the plate.  Did they make mistakes.  Yes, but "There by the grace of god go I".  And of all these classes they are still around because they do it for the right reasons and not a $$.

When most of the greats were sent to the US in the 60's to start Taekwon-do... you know who I mean.  These are the biggies in the magazines today, they only knew up to green belt rank ability, but the founders put a black belt on them and said go start TKD in the U.S.  Because it was impresive to see a black belt in the US in the 60's.

You have protected the integrity of your fellow students, your school, your instructor, all martial arts.

But mostly your own integrity, which is usually the most you can do. You initial gut reaction was correct in your outrage and people will see this in you. That is why they respect you as most here do becuase of your reaction.

There are those that wear a Black Belt and there are those that are a black belt.

Showing respect and giving respect are two different things.

Showing respect is for the mear belt. (I can turn this on and off like a Ki-ai)
Giving respect is for the integrity in the person. 

If it looks like **** Edited to conform to MT's Profanity policy
Smells like ****... Edited to conform to MT's Profanity Policy  *Please let the filter do it's job& review the rules http://martialtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=141&

Then it probably is


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## Jonathan Randall (Jan 5, 2006)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> At some the schools I have visited, I seen 17 year bbs. do a better job at "teaching" than instructors with 3rd and 4th degrees bbs at the same school. Now does this mean that those young men know more than those instructors? No by no means do they probably have the level of knowledge or experience. But what it does mean ( at least in my opinion ) that they may have a better understanding of the break down /application or at least a better understanding on how to teach or model to some one what they need to learn.


 
Very true. It used to be very common to find (and maybe still is) brown belts in Judo assisting at classe and even running (very effectively, I might add) their own small clubs under the eye and authority of a licensed Sandan or above. Heck, my first instruction came from a brown belt named Mr. Brown in 1972! On the other hand, a brown belt thirty years ago held more currency than a 3-4th Dan today in many respects.


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## shesulsa (Jan 5, 2006)

I finally read through this entire discussion and I noticed that you hinted at something, boricuatkd, that no one else has touched on.

I was married to a kenpo black belt and never held rank in that system - but I knew and understood the techniques, the forms, stances, subtleties, nuances, etcetera of most of the system.  Spouses of masters or higher ranks, etcetera, learn MUCH by osmosis - more than many are willing to realize.  So you likely DO have knowledge beyond your rank (to say the least).

As to the situation in particular, it's hard for me really to say what was going through this person's head because I am not he. A few possibilities have been thrown out there.  He might have recoiled at your statement because he just assumed that with your skill and demonstrated confidence with the material that you were higher, etcetera.  But he certainly was rude and assuming, in my opinion.

Then there is the valid point that many people who hold dan ranking (especially chodan) have reached some 'goal' they had in life and many think that's the be-all-end-all of martial arts training.  But really, so what? Each instructor should be evaluated on his/her own merit and ability.  

The other point I wanted to make was that the student who thinks you're not worthy of learning from because you're "only a 1st dan" might not be a valuable student.  An example, if I may: My teacher is in his 60s and doesn't run, jump, spin, cartwheel or anything in front of other people.  He holds a higher rank in another art than our current art which he began in his late 40s.  He has studied many arts, is one of the most knowledgeable people I've heard talk about martial arts and the martial way.  Yet because of his age, some young men get a glimpse of or train with a younger master (at a seminar, for instance) and think, 'wow, I want to train with HIM - this old guy can't teach me anything.'  This attitude can sometimes spill over onto women and the spouses of instructors/masters.

An opinion that has already been stated that I agree with is that if your master is happy with you in your rank, you're happy with you in your rank and your school then my advice would be (if you're asking for it) let people make all the comments they want and tell them you are just where you should be right now in training and thanks for their concern and walk away.

You're a strong woman and it sounds to me like Terry is lucky to have you, as are your students. :asian:


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2006)

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> It used to be very common to find (and maybe still is) brown belts in Judo assisting at classe and even running (very effectively, I might add) their own small clubs under the eye and authority of a licensed Sandan or above. Heck, my first instruction came from a brown belt named Mr. Brown in 1972! On the other hand, a brown belt thirty years ago held more currency than a 3-4th Dan today in many respects.



I still see that in Judo. In BJJ, you see it with blue belts!

In Modern Arnis, you used to get a basic instructor's certificate after a single camp and were encouraged to share the art with your friends.


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## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 5, 2006)

DArnold said:
			
		

> IMHO - I think these *ARE* as offensive as they sound because *they are just excuses.* Excuses for whatever reasons. And if this is acceptable in the the Japan system you are talking about it shows you the quality/integrity of that system. That no matter what the rank.. in this system you don't know if they are a capable black belt or just a paper pusher...


 
Absolutely no argument from me at this point. I have meet 3rd Dans who only have knowledge of 1st Dan. Go figure 

Still, as in any group of people, the great technicians will shine, while the paper pushers will, well, take care of paperworks 



> Let's face it, many martial artists/organizations are just in the game to make a quick buck. I have been with several Oriental instructors and even though they profess that their goal is to make their students better than themselves, I noticed that they never gave me everything. If they did I wouldn't come back and then they would loose money.


 
even the Japanese, Koreans and Chinese love money too, you know


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## green meanie (Jan 5, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I still see that in Judo. In BJJ, you see it with blue belts!


 
I'm not surprised. From what I've seen, it takes just about the same amount of time to get a blue belt in BJJ as it does to get brown belt in most everything else. It's not at all uncommon for a BJJ purple belt to open and run his own school and have a blue belt assistant with the same responisibilites and respect that one would normally associate with a black belt instructor with a brown belt assistant.



			
				arnisador said:
			
		

> In Modern Arnis, you used to get a basic instructor's certificate after a single camp and were encouraged to share the art with your friends.


 
I find that really interesting but I'm not sure why yet.


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## Andrew Green (Jan 5, 2006)

DArnold said:
			
		

> 2) Nope, doesn't hold water either as this means that a high rank in this organization means you are good at paperwork, or fundraising, or cleaning the gym, or whatever... other than the actual art itself. This again demeans all those who have worked hard to achieve the rank.



So...  The Japanese use the Japanese ranking system wrong according to a non-Japanese person.  Right.

Perhaps there is more to growing a art then technical skill, perhaps those other things are important, perhaps they are worth recognizing, perhaps not everyone uses the system the same way...

And why should they?  Where in the "official" belt giving rules does it say that belts should only be given for technical skill?

There are no official belt giving rules, everyone is free to do what they like with them.  There are no universal standards, they are purely a internal thing to a school or organization.

At 8th dan it shouldn't be about technical skill, no one should expect it too.  By this time the people going for it are well past there prime in terms of technical skill, so if rank is nothing but technical skill the top ranked guys would be mostly 20-35 years old.

If someone hosts tournaments, travels around doing seminars, spends all there time promoting and growing the system they should be recognized within the system for that.  And as there is only one method of recognition (belts) they get awarded for MANY different reasons.


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## arnisador (Jan 5, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I'm not surprised. From what I've seen, it takes just about the same amount of time to get a blue belt in BJJ as it does to get brown belt in most everything else. It's not at all uncommon for a BJJ purple belt to open and run his own school and have a blue belt assistant with the same responisibilites and respect that one would normally associate with a black belt instructor with a brown belt assistant.


 
I think this is pretty much so...it's about 2-3 years to blue belt and the same again to purple belt, as a rule, so that makes a purple belt in the ballpark of a typical shodan, as far as time in is concerned. Plus, there's no question about how skilled the person is...either he or she has been beating others or not!

Prof. Presas tried very hard to get others to help him spread Modern Arnis...a great many of these people were black belts in other arts who were 'adding some sticks' to their training.


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## Miles (Jan 6, 2006)

Boricuatkd, not to put you on the spot, but have you or Terry had a chance to speak with this instructor and find out what he meant by his comments?  

As I am sure you are aware, what he was proposing, a skip dan, is extremely rare.  I am sort of left wondering if perhaps he was thinking that Terry should have a skip and he was planting the seed in your ear, so to speak?

Feel free to PM me (or ignore me...my wife does 

Miles


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## rmclain (Jan 6, 2006)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> Ok everyone bear with me- this maybe a little long. But I sort of need to vent. :miffer:
> All right for the last couple of weeks I have been stewing over something that was brought to my attention by an acquaintance of my other half that really threw me for a total loop. And to be quite honest, offended me to some extent. To put this in retrospect, my offender is actually a master in tkd (olympic).
> The gentleman comes by from time to time to visit and share with my other half regarding new tkd news. During his last visit a couple of weeks ago, he inquired whether or not I had an equal interest in our martial arts school. When I informed him that I did and that I actually helped in teaching and even in running our summer camp programs he almost recoiled from me in shock.
> He then proceded to tell me that at my age I really needed to be higher than a first if I was going to be taken seriously as an instructor at our school. That at my current rank I really should not have a "hands-on" in the instruction of our students because it would not help in making our school look legit. On top of it all, he proceded to advice me to convince my husband to hook up with one of the local grand masters who could accommodate my situation by skipping me to respectful rank for my age for a reasonable price and a percentage of our student fees. Oh it would all be done through the Kukkiwon of coarse. Now I know that this does happen through out the tkd circle from time to time. But what really bothered me was the fact that he actually felt I was not qualified in teaching our students. Now, I have been to "respected" tkd schools in our area and all of them have 1st and 2nd dans teaching classes. Is there some rule that I am not aware of that prohibits lower ranking black belts fro teaching? To be honest I may only be a 1st, but I am very knowlegable that several higher ranking bbs that I know. I am a true student of my art - learning all that I can and passing that onto our students.


 
I wouldn't worry about this too much.  There is alot of this (pay-for-promotion) going on in the Metroplex.  Also, there are several Grandmasters in the area that I am sure would promote for a fee.  But, the promotion is not worth the paper it is written upon - just like their promotions.  You can usually tell these people from their waistlines.  

Another instructor's perception of your school is not what is important - they don't benefit from your school or instruction.  Your students and potential students' perception of your school and instruction is what matters.

R. McLain


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## boricuatkd (Jan 7, 2006)

Miles said:
			
		

> Boricuatkd, not to put you on the spot, but have you or Terry had a chance to speak with this instructor and find out what he meant by his comments?
> 
> As I am sure you are aware, what he was proposing, a skip dan, is extremely rare. I am sort of left wondering if perhaps he was thinking that Terry should have a skip and he was planting the seed in your ear, so to speak?
> 
> ...


 
Actually, He came recently to discuss a program he wanted my help with.  By chance the subject came up again. In our discussion I informed him that it was just not my style. That I would rather earn my belt and not purchase it. At that moment my beloved other half came by and let him know that when I felt I was ready to test then he would test me. Our acquaintance told us that he felt it would just make our school more respectable among the "elite" schools in the area. My response to him was that I would have the respect of my students when they see me have to complete test and *earn* :asian: my 2nd rather than them see me walk in with a paper that says I have a 2nd that I didin't even earn. My students' respect is more valuable than people from other schools.


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

Boricuatkd, what school do you attend? I teach a children's TKD class in Grand prairie. I am also a fellow Boricua!


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

rmclain, do you attend the Karate-do school in arlington?


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## IcemanSK (Jan 8, 2006)

boricuatkd said:
			
		

> Actually, He came recently to discuss a program he wanted my help with. By chance the subject came up again. In our discussion I informed him that it was just not my style. That I would rather earn my belt and not purchase it. At that moment my beloved other half came by and let him know that when I felt I was ready to test then he would test me. Our acquaintance told us that he felt it would just make our school more respectable among the "elite" schools in the area. My response to him was that I would have the respect of my students when they see me have to complete test and *earn* :asian: my 2nd rather than them see me walk in with a paper that says I have a 2nd that I didin't even earn. My students' respect is more valuable than people from other schools.


 
I swear my name should be "just curious" on this board cuz I wonder out loud a lot. But, how did he react to your above statement?


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## rmclain (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> rmclain, do you attend the Karate-do school in arlington?


 
MMA Kid,

No, I don't attend that school.  You mean the one on Randol Mill Rd., right?  Why do you ask?

This is the school I train at: http://www.arlingtonkarate.com 

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> MMA Kid,
> 
> No, I don't attend that school. You mean the one on Randol Mill Rd., right? Why do you ask?
> 
> ...


 
R.mclain you are in my nick of the woods here in Arlington, we are at Six Flag Mall Dillards side of the Mall.
Terry


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> Boricuatkd, what school do you attend? I teach a children's TKD class in Grand prairie. I am also a fellow Boricua!


 
MMA kid she is at our school we own it, it is called Twin Dragons MAS located in Six Flag Mall in Arlington at Dillards court side. What school do you teach at in Grand Prairie, GP Karate or Eagle Park or Nyguns on 303, I'm really not that familar with anybody else here in GP.
Terry Boricuatkd Husband.


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> R.mclain you are in my nick of the woods here in Arlington, we are at Six Flag Mall Dillards side of the Mall.
> Terry


 
...hmmm...

yes, ive actually stopped by to take a look inside, its a pretty big space, it was closed though, didnt have a chance to look at a session.


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> MMA Kid,
> 
> No, I don't attend that school. You mean the one on Randol Mill Rd., right? Why do you ask?
> 
> ...


 
you got to the one off of arkansas right??

the big school with the huge "Karate-Do" sign.
its by fiesta right?


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> ...hmmm...
> 
> yes, ive actually stopped by to take a look inside, its a pretty big space, it was closed though, didnt have a chance to look at a session.


 
MMAKID why do you not say what school you are with, I guess I left out Faulkners on main street.

How long have you been teaching? What style of TKD do you teach? How long have you been a teacher at the school and what classes do you teach?
terry


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

I train at Ngueyen's Int. Martial arts Academy, or Arlington Fight club.

its off of 303(pioneer) in Grand prairie, attached to the Grand Prairie Fitness center.

(yes I know that we are called Arlington Fight club and located in Grand prairie)

I teach the Children's classes there. I have been training for 8 years straight (no long breaks). I hold what i like to call a real first degree black belt (it took me 6 years to get it!) We teach WTF TKD, but with little modifications to it. ( hands up, not so much focus on points, but effectiveness)

I am currently training in the Muay thai and Brazilian Jiu jitsu classes offered at my school.

been teaching for about a year


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> I train at Ngueyen's Int. Martial arts Academy, or Arlington Fight club.
> 
> its off of 303(pioneer) in Grand prairie, attached to the Grand Prairie Fitness center.
> 
> (yes I know that we are called Arlington Fight club and located in Grand prairie)


 
Well then we have probaly meet and as far as the name it does not brother me and I did see where you moved out of the fitness center, the place is looking good!
Have a nice evening.
Terry


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## DArnold (Jan 8, 2006)

So... The Japanese use the Japanese ranking system wrong according to a non-Japanese person. Right.

*Nope, no one said anything about right or wrong. Right and wrong are is just as an illusive concept... like "Fair"*

*My statement was that this was a testament to the value of their ranking system. You were the one that brought up right and wrong. *

*I think most people would want to be known for their marital arts and not how well they shuffeled paper. Unfortunately, more and more are promoted for other reasons than Martial arts.*

Perhaps there is more to growing a art then technical skill, perhaps those other things are important, perhaps they are worth recognizing, perhaps not everyone uses the system the same way...

*Yes, many things make up a martial artist: washing their uniform, showing up to class on time, paying for their class... but many believe that you should not give someone rank for these things. Some things in life you learn to do without being rewarded for them.  *

*Rank was just an invention to keep people too impatient to learn, a way to set small goals.  Even though its not the case, most of us have a hope that senior ranks are beyond this.*

And why should they? Where in the "official" belt giving rules does it say that belts should only be given for technical skill?

There are no official belt giving rules, everyone is free to do what they like with them. There are no universal standards, they are purely a internal thing to a school or organization.

*Yes, and how they handle these things defines not only the worth of the organization but also the integrity of their organization.*

At 8th dan it shouldn't be about technical skill, no one should expect it too. By this time the people going for it are well past there prime in terms of technical skill, so if rank is nothing but technical skill the top ranked guys would be mostly 20-35 years old.

*Here is where many would disagree with you. Most (As I) belive that the higher rank you achieve the higher your technical skill. *

*Everyone would agree with your assesment of times affect on the human condition. *

*But many would not agree with your **definition of "technical skills" as being purely physical. **Many believe that there is more to technical skill than just physical ability. I am still astounded at the amount I learn from some masters, mostly mental, not physical.*

If someone hosts tournaments, travels around doing seminars, spends all there time promoting and growing the system they should be recognized within the system for that. And as there is only one method of recognition (belts) they get awarded for MANY different reasons.

*Many peopl would also disagree with you here as most don't think you just promote someone for doing "things". I do lots of things for my art but would never want to be promoted for them. They are just things you do to give back to your art.*

*And if you are saying the only way to recognize people is to promote them, then I would have to promote all my soccer moms. They do lots of things and I do many things to recognize them. I just don't promote them. I can recognize talents without promotion*

*Sad but true, most of what you talk about is the accepted norm with a lot of people.  *

*But there are still many whom hold to the beliefe that the arts should be about a persons ability in the martial artists.*


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## rmclain (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> you got to the one off of arkansas right??
> 
> the big school with the huge "Karate-Do" sign.
> its by fiesta right?


 
No, that's not my school.  I sent you a return PM earlier.

You've been with Franc for 8 years now.  That's great.  I saw a photo on-line with him teaching Muy Thai.  Is he teaching that now?  He used to only teach Taekwon Do.  How is he doing these days?

R. McLain


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## rmclain (Jan 8, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> MMA kid she is at our school we own it, it is called Twin Dragons MAS located in Six Flag Mall in Arlington at Dillards court side. What school do you teach at in Grand Prairie, GP Karate or Eagle Park or Nyguns on 303, I'm really not that familar with anybody else here in GP.
> Terry Boricuatkd Husband.


 
Hello Terry,

Does Nikko Reyes still have his school at Six Flags Mall too?

R. McLain


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> Hello Terry,
> 
> Does Nikko Reyes still have his school at Six Flags Mall too?
> 
> R. McLain


 
 No Niko Reyes has been gone about a year, we moved in right after he left. Farfans nephew moved in on the other side of the mall, next to where Reyes used to be. We took over where the Grand Prairie new paper used to be and the place next to that we are about three quarters of the corridor on the Dillards wing across from where old eyemastrers used to be.
Terry


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

rmclain said:
			
		

> No, that's not my school. I sent you a return PM earlier.
> 
> You've been with Franc for 8 years now. That's great. I saw a photo on-line with him teaching Muy Thai. Is he teaching that now? He used to only teach Taekwon Do. How is he doing these days?
> 
> R. McLain


 
where, may I ask, did you see this photo? Yes, he is now teaching Muay Thai. He is doing great, he is staying in shape and we are getting mores students now than ever before.


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> I train at Ngueyen's Int. Martial arts Academy, or Arlington Fight club.
> 
> its off of 303(pioneer) in Grand prairie, attached to the Grand Prairie Fitness center.
> 
> ...


 
 MMA Kid the school on Arkansas is Master Lewis it is calledKarate-Do he is part of the TKL- Texas Karate League with Master Kurban. Alot of people get those to mix up a bit.
Terry


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> No Niko Reyes has been gone about a year, we moved in right after he left. Farfans nephew moved in on the other side of the mall, next to where Reyes used to be. We took over where the Grand Prairie new paper used to be and the place next to that we are about three quarters of the corridor on the Dillards wing across from where old eyemastrers used to be.
> Terry


 
has there been any rivalry (freindly or non)??

I think it is great to have another school in the same building, I think it would promote good competitions


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> has there been any rivalry (freindly or non)??
> 
> I think it is great to have another school in the same building, I think it would promote good competitions


 
Rivalry No, but in my world of respect one does not move next to there suppose to be friends in the Arts. We do not talk anymore and he does he's thing and me and my school just keep getting better. I have no rivalrys in MA only people I train with and those I do not not good or Bad just the way it is with me.
Terry


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

so it is Farfan's nephew who moved in? what is that school called? We had Villalobos come to our school to train last month, we had a lot of fun, our adult class is now doing kickboxing with takedowns and it was quite an experience watching two different styles spar.


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## boricuatkd (Jan 8, 2006)

Yes - it is Master Farfan's nephew that moved into the mall about 2 -3 months ago.  Master Farfan I understand moved to Arkansas. At least that is what we have heard. I am also familiar with Master Villalobos. We have met at some of the local tournaments. He was also part of the TKL at one time. 
Let me extend an open invitation to you and your students. We train 6 days a week. We also cross train with other schools as well. Feel free to come by and visit at any time.


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

Thank you! I would really enjoy stopping by sometime, does your school open on saturdays?

Edit: what other schools have you crosstrained with?


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## boricuatkd (Jan 8, 2006)

IcemanSK said:
			
		

> I swear my name should be "just curious" on this board cuz I wonder out loud a lot. But, how did he react to your above statement?


 
:lurk: Getting back to the original thread and to answer your question Iceman,  he was some what put out and quickly changed the subject. 
Like I have mentioned before, I really don't care. I know that some people have  commented how normal this is ( at least for the commercial aspect of tkd)  - especially in my area; but I just can't grasp the concept. It goes against everything I believe in and everything that we teach at our school. :asian:


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## boricuatkd (Jan 8, 2006)

The MMA kid! said:
			
		

> Thank you! I would really enjoy stopping by sometime, does your school open on saturdays?
> 
> Edit: what other schools have you crosstrained with?


Yes we are open on Saturdays from 11-until we get through. (Which is usually around 1:30 -2:00)

At the moment we are cross training with a kung fu school from Forth Worth. Some of their students are wanting to learn olympic style sparring. On the same token, we also have students inlcuding myself and my boys who have trained in open style fighting so it gives us some people to work with. It is a very competitive but friendly training. We learn alot  from each other. Their master instructor is a wonderful person and our schools hold great respect for each other's styles. :asian:


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## terryl965 (Jan 8, 2006)

This is just a friendly reminder from the Mod. portion of myself, we need to nudge this back to topic at hand, I will be starting a thread about cross training Immediately.
Sorry for the mis-guiding of the tread.
Terry Lee Stoker


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## The MMA kid! (Jan 8, 2006)

how big is your adult class? Since our adult class is now involved with different style sparring, I think it would be great if your school could come over for a class, either to watch, or to participate. Tae kwon do is still heavily taught in the class, just with added techniques from other arts. Namely Muay thai and San shou


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