# Oh really?



## DWeidman (Aug 17, 2007)

Sorry for the vague thread title...

I am pretty plugged in to the BJK - and was unaware that it was against Soke's wishes to train with SKH.  

Is this true? - and if so - can you point to your source.

As a BJK-er, I thought the "official" stance was Steve is doing his own thing - so not part of the BJK.  However, that doesn't preclude anyone in the BJK not training with him or his group.  Just as there isn't a ban on training with ANYONE in another art (with ONLY two exceptions that are well known - GBK and JNK).

-Daniel


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2007)

My understanding is that Mr. Hayes is doing his own thing with an art called Toshindo.  The schools associated with it are also called "Quest Centers" or something to that effect.

However the discussion came up surrounding a Bujinkan shidoshi training under Mr. Hayes.  


"Our Chief Instructor, Mr. Mark Davis, is a shidoshi in the Bujinkan organization        and continues to train intensively via frequent trips to Japan to study        with the Grandmaster, Dr. Hatsumi, and several other extraordinarily talented        Bujinkan instructors. Stateside, Mr. Davis continues to train with Mr. Stephen        K. Hayes, one of the world's foremost authorities on Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu        and Ninjutsu. 

http://www.boston-ninpo.com/About.htm

"Toshindo" or "Quest" do not appear anywhere on the www.boston-ninpo.com website.  In fact, the shidoshi does not make public recognition of the fact that Mr. Hayes is doing his own thing.  By sayin he is  "one of the worlds foremost authorities on BBT..." there is not even a hint that Mr. Hayes is not a part of the Bujinkan anymore and now does his own thing.

While I'm not in the Bujinkan, I can see where that can be problematic.  But perhaps someone in the Bujinkan can describe this better.


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## Bumblebee (Aug 17, 2007)

I know it's not the most reliable source, but under Stephen K. Hayes' Wikipedia article it says that Soke Hatsumi is still signing certificates for Hayes' students.  I remember reading it either there or Black Belt Magazine, but pretty sure it's on Wikipedia.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 17, 2007)

I find it very hard to believe that Hatsumi would want anyone within the Bujinkan to train with Hayes.

I would rather train with Hayes than with many Bujinkan instructors, but I'm not going to.


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## Mr. E (Aug 17, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Just as there isn't a ban on training with ANYONE in another art (with ONLY two exceptions that are well known - GBK and JNK).



Can you link me to the official announcement and rule that says you can't train with GBK and JNK?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 17, 2007)

This was posted by Johji Ohashi quite awhile ago on his bulletin board.

*Although the latest news from the Hombu seems to have surprised many people, the facts involved are very simple.*
*Soke has decided that the person in question has moved away from the Bujinkan and so he is no longer recognized as a Bujinkan member. His name placard has been removed from the 10th dan board in the Hombu Dojo.*
*(Soke doesn't care if people call it a Hamon or not.)*
*I hope this clarifies the issue. Please stop making a fuss on the Internet. There is no need for discussion on this matter, but you can contact Soke if you are REALLY concerned.*
(I'll delete this comment in a few days because it has almost nothing to do with the two classes I'm in charge of. -- May 22nd.)


While it is no longer there you find it also here on Phil Legare's board. Knowing Phil and how close he is with Soke I would be stunned that both Johji Ohashi the Hombu Administrator and Phil had somehow gotten it wrong. While it does not say banned or do not train the message is pretty clear. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





Here is the link to Phil's board carefully scroll down to the third post from the last and you see it repeated there: http://shinkentaijutsu.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=256&highlight=stephen+hayes

Dan this is pretty old news and I am sure you have seen this before so I wonder why you would bring it up again? Stephen Hayes has gone his own way and that is fine. *We should all let him train and teach and enjoy what he is doing rather than bickering over it.*

*Personally I only wish Stephen Hayes the best. I hope that To Shin Do is really successful and that he enjoys his training! 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	


*


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> . *We should all let him train and teach and enjoy what he is doing rather than bickering over it.*
> 
> *Personally I only wish Stephen Hayes the best. I hope that To Shin Do is really successful and that he enjoys his training!
> 
> ...



The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.

The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.
> 
> The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.


 
Well I think what I posted above sheds light on Mr. Hayes standing within the Bujinkan.  Having said that I think it also sheds light on Boston in a different way.  

Either way I still wish Mr. Hayes and Mr. Davis the best and hope that they have good training and enjoy what they are doing.


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Either way I still wish Mr. Hayes and Mr. Davis the best and hope that they have good training and enjoy what they are doing.



Absolutely. :asian:


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## Mr. E (Aug 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> The issue is not about whether someone can train Toshindo under Mr. Hayes.
> 
> The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.



I think that maybe it is about the wishes of the Soke of the Bujinkan.

I have trained with Asian masters from Indonesia, Japan and China. One thing I have learned is that a whisper from them about their wishes for the student should be as loud as a storm. If someone says that they do not wish their students to train with ex-students of theirs, then that is *not* something you should do even if it is not in the formal rules.

I know people studying in the Bujinkan. I am aware that the most public statements about training with the Genbukan and such are comments from Mr Hatsumi about training with "former students." I think it is fairly clear that Mr Hayes falls into the catagory of a former student. So I think that hosting a seminar by him would be the same as hosting a Genbukan seminar.

And I think that if there is even a _small_ chance that this is the case, that anyone who really cares about Mr Hatsumi and being a good student of his would make very, very certain before they acted in a way that could be contrary to his wishes. I would ask around with those closest to the source before acting.

Take a look at the second line of this post. You may think that this person may not have all the facts, you may think he is speaking out of jealousy or maybe you think that it is just a rumor. But when someone as close to the source says something like this, it might be best to act with caution and check for yourself instead of shrugging your shoulders and just doing as you wish.


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## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 17, 2007)

And this issue is one of the contributing factors to my departure from the Boston dojo. I wanted to train in Bujinkan budo taijutsu, and I didn't feel I was doing so. The friends of mine who trained in other dojo in other states had far different experiences than I did, and had never heard of the godai when I mentioned it. I remember BMAC teaching ichimonji no kamae the way Haye's does it, with the guard hand a shuto at the bottom of the deltoid instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow. Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder. Hayes just does it that way, and so does Mark Davis. I felt pretty embarrassed training with friends of mine and hearing, "....that's not ichimonji". I just don't feel Mark Davis is running a Bujinkan dojo and anyone looking to learn the art should look elsewhere.


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## Mr. E (Aug 17, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> I remember BMAC teaching ichimonji no kamae the way Haye's does it, with the guard hand a shuto at the bottom of the deltoid instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow. Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder.



Isn't that _seigan no kamae_ from the _Koto ryu?_


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## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 17, 2007)

Basically yes, it was seigan. But they called it ichimonji, and you never saw seigan until way later. I never saw seigan. Just fake ichimonji.


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## LuzRD (Aug 17, 2007)

why do we have multiple "Devil Hanzo"'s??
EDIT~ dont want it to seem like im picking on anyone, just curious.


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## Carol (Aug 17, 2007)

LuzRD said:


> why do we have multiple "Devil Hanzo"'s??



Don't know but someone has reported that to the mod team already.  The board admins are looking in to it.


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## rutherford (Aug 17, 2007)

Carol Kaur said:


> The issue is whether someone can train under Mr. Hayes and call it Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, which is what is going on in Boston.



We had one thread closed.  Why did you bringing the issue into a second discussion?

Can we have this thread moved to The Great Debate at least?


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## Mr. E (Aug 18, 2007)

rutherford said:


> We had one thread closed.  Why did you bringing the issue into a second discussion?
> 
> Can we have this thread moved to The Great Debate at least?



It might just go that way.

But if we remember that this thread is not about any specific dojo or way of doing things we may be alright. The question on the table is about whether it is ok for Bujinkan members to train with or hold seminars for Stephen Hayes. It is not about a dojo in Boston or any of the members here.

I have given the sources that I have found here on martialtalk. I have friends in the Bujinkan that say the same exact same thing as what has been said here. If someone can give an opposite view and do so in a calm, constructive manner then there may still be hope for this thread.

And just to remind people, I know that Mr Hatsumi has stated that he does not want people who follow him to learn from people who are ex-students of his. There seems to be no specific comments in public about the Jinenkan or Genbukan. But people seem to understand that holding a seminar for the head of the Jinenkan would go against Mr Hatsumi's wishes. It seems clear that Mr Hayes is an ex student as well. So it would seem that the same situation applies. And I would think people would want to err on the side of caution in any case if they really cared about what their soke thought.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 18, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> The friends of mine who trained in other dojo in other states had far different experiences than I did,



Nothing unique about that. 



Devil_Hanzo said:


> instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow.


 
Hand at the crook of the elbow, thumbs pointing up and lead hand towards the opposite shoulder is Gyokko ryu. Seems like the same problem we've been having since the 80's - ryuha confusion. Nothing strange about that. Heck, I'm not surprised if a lot of people at one time or another believed that kihon happo came from Togakure ryu.




Devil_Hanzo said:


> Hatsumi has NEVER said ichimonji was done with a shuto guard hand at the shoulder.


 
Kinda doubt that. And how would you know if it was true?


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## DWeidman (Aug 20, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Sorry for the vague thread title...
> 
> I am pretty plugged in to the BJK - and was unaware that it was against Soke's wishes to train with SKH.
> 
> ...



Apparently I am not good at writing English.  I will try again.

Brian.  I am not questioning if SKH is doing his own thing.  I thought it was clear in my OP where I said, _" As a BJK-er, I thought the "official" stance was Steve is doing his own thing - so not part of the BJK."_

So....  Let me ask again.

I, as a BJK member, can train in TKD if I want.  Or Krav Maga.  Or anything **EXCEPT** GBK or JNK.  

So, is there any PROBLEM with training with Steve?  Would anyone be in TROUBLE if they did?

I have already said I don't think there is a problem training with Steve...  But people are carrying on as if I am wrong.  

I am curious as to whether this is something FROM Soke, or something they PERSONALLY feel (for whatever reasons).

This has NOTHING to do with Mark Davis.  It was just inspired by the conversation about his dojo.  

Sorry for all the ALL CAPS words.  I just want to be CLEAR.

-Daniel


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## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 20, 2007)

> Kinda doubt that. And how would you know if it was true?



Why would you doubt that? If he said ichimonji no kamae was done the EXACT same way seigan no kamae was, then it's NOT ichimonji no kamae! I know for a fact he never said that, because it's incorrect, and clearly as soke he knows the difference between ichimonji and seigan.

Pick up a Hayes book and look at his ichimonji. It's almost identical to seigan. If you were told that was ichimonji, then what's seigan? I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.


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## Doc_Jude (Aug 21, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> Why would you doubt that? If he said ichimonji no kamae was done the EXACT same way seigan no kamae was, then it's NOT ichimonji no kamae! I know for a fact he never said that, because it's incorrect, and clearly as soke he knows the difference between ichimonji and seigan.
> 
> Pick up a Hayes book and look at his ichimonji. It's almost identical to seigan. If you were told that was ichimonji, then what's seigan? I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.



Wow. I guess that Soke's opinion of the Internet may have actually been right, huh?


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## kaizasosei (Aug 21, 2007)

i think that ichimonji is more supposed to be level like a straight line 
seigan would cover the opponents line of sight pointing hand straight to opponents eyes...
am i correct?   i can't recall ever learning more about the differences.
i know that name seigan is a very popular kamae from sword arts.

j


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## stephen (Aug 21, 2007)

Is it April 1st already???


</Double Click on Time>
</Look at System Calendar>
</Shrug>
...
...
...
...
...
</Get Popcorn>


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 21, 2007)

I can't recall having heard the term seigan being used outside sword and spear training. That's not to say I've never heard it being used otherwise.


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## benkyoka (Aug 22, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> I can't recall having heard the term seigan being used outside sword and spear training. That's not to say I've never heard it being used otherwise.



There is seigan no kamae in the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.


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## Rubber Tanto (Aug 22, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> I'd paste a picture but after searching yahoo, google, and metacrawler, I found not ONE picture of seigan or ichimonji that was actually good kamae.


 
Well what about this one:







I was under the imprression there were different positions of ichimonji from different ryu. Am I mistaken?

So is this ichimonji or not? The website claims it to be ichimonji...and it's takamatsu-sensei doing it. I'm taking a wild guess that whatever kamae it is, he has a pretty good idea how it should look 

And then this:


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## Mr. E (Aug 22, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> So is this ichimonji or not? The website claims it to be ichimonji...and it's takamatsu-sensei doing it. I'm taking a wild guess that whatever kamae it is, he has a pretty good idea how it should look



The question should be, are they doing _seigan no kamae_ and someone else said they were doing _Ichimonji no kamae_?

Even I know that there is a stance with the arm straight and the rear hand up near the face. But if you look at things like the Gyokko ryu DVD, what are they saying is Ichimonji.

Not a web site by a student. I think you should be looking at what your soke does and what _he himself_ calls it. Is he saying that this is Seigan or Ichimonji?


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## MarkBarlow (Aug 22, 2007)

I'm showing my age (and Stephan Hayes, too) but I remember back in the mid 70's visiting the House of T'ang, outside Atlanta.  Hayes Sensei was teaching ninjutsu and offering to teach the secrets of invisibility.  30 years later and I can still see him.


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## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 22, 2007)

> I was under the imprression there were different positions of ichimonji from different ryu. Am I mistaken?


Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu. There is only ONE way to do it. This is the problem with the Bujinkan, everything is grapevine passed from person to person and no one has ever stopped it. It comes with having so many people, maintaining quality in teaching becomes difficult. 

I know the other two kans have meetings with all the teachers just to go over every technique and make sure they're all on the same page with each other and with their prospective kancho. This makes sure that every teacher is correctly passing down what their kancho taught them, and makes sure no one got confused over the years and changed up the technique to something different, thus ruining the teachings.

I know Hatsumi-sensei is very relaxed and lenient in his teaching style, which is great. It's his organization he can do what he wants. Unfortunately now due to that lack of control he has a lot of students who have no idea what ichimonji no kamae is, who then post pictures of seigan and label it ichimonji probably because they learned that from reading Hayes books back in the day. If you set foot into ANY of the thousands of Bujinkan dojos in the world and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae", under absolutely NO circumstance should anyone's kamae look different from the next persons. How do you know if what you're learning is correct if teachers in the SAME organization all do it differently? You don't. They'll just say, "You can do ichimonji laying on your back or upside down! As long as the feeling of the space around you is controlled with the mindset of ichimonji no kamae, you're doing it correctly".


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 22, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu. There is only ONE way to do it.


 
Wrong.

The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a gang sign. Heh.



Devil_Hanzo said:


> If you set foot into ANY of the thousands of Bujinkan dojos in the world and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae", under absolutely NO circumstance should anyone's kamae look different from the next persons.


 
Not to mention, there should be at least 50 percent women participating at any given training session.



Devil_Hanzo said:


> How do you know if what you're learning is correct if teachers in the SAME organization all do it differently?


 
You find the person who is the least full of crap, and then you go with him.


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## DWeidman (Aug 22, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> Yes, you are. Ichimonji no kamae is from Gyokko ryu.



Where did you get this Richard?  I mean - to make that kind of statement means you KNOW what all the kamae from the other 8 schools are, right?

For the record, I have it under GOOD authority that you are wrong on this one.

Of course, I don't have all the densho.  I assume you do?

-Daniel


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## Bujingodai (Aug 22, 2007)

Hey can we argue what Shizen no Kamae looks like now? I think we're getting a little hung up on semantics. Was this thread not about where and who you can train with?


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## Mr. E (Aug 23, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji.



So if they were practicing the kata of the Togakure ryu, it would be correct.

But it is my understanding that most Bujinkan people do not even know the kata from the Togakure ryu. And typically if it is taught it follows the Gyokko and Koto ryus.

So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.

This may not seem like much to the typical Bujinkan member. Don't get me wrong- I have a few good friends who study in the Bujinkan and I exchange lessons with them sometimes. But the vast majority of people I have run across from the Bujinkan just do not seem to pay attention to the important little details of a rich martial art.

In the sword work I do, there are forms where the sword points at the heart at the beggining and others where the sword starts pointed at the eyes. If you do point the sword just a few degrees off so that it points at the other target you will be corrected. Do it too many times and the teacher will give up on you. There is a reason for why one starts pointed at one area and the other at another target. Most Bujinkan folks I have run across are the types that I think would hear the admonation against pointing at the wrong target and then would just roll their eyes and say, "_what-_ever."

If you wonder why some of Mr Hatsumi's ex-students seem to get more respect in the Japanese martial arts community, you need only look at these types of students that seem attracted to the Bujinkan.

And in terms of the Gyokko ryu ichimonji vs Togakure ryu, it is my understanding that not only was the Koto ryu started a soke of the Gyokko ryu, and they were passed down side by side, but also that the Togakure ryu was part of this as well. So it seems that for a few generations they did not throw out all the kamae except one to simplify things. They kept the Gyokko ryu ichimonji and did the kata in that stance while doing Koto ryu kata in Seigan. I assume that these people, and Mr Hatsumi, knew what they were doing when they taught two seperate but similar kamae instead of teaching just one for all schools. So while we may not know the reason why they are different, that does not mean that there is no reason, no benefit for practicing the Gyokko ryu in a Gyokko ryu kamae instead of something from the Koto ryu or Togakure ryu.

But whose fault is this and is Mr Hatsumi doing something to correct it? It looks to me that Devil Hanzo has listed how something that is different from what is being taught by the soke of the Bujinkan. I just looked on a DVD produced by Mr Hatsumi and the kamae he has on his Gyokko ryu tape is how Devil Hanzo describes how it should be. So it is other people that are spreading the wrong thing. And at least one person recently discussed seems to be hosting seminars for Stephen Hayes. It seems to me that Mr Hayes got things wrong and his influence was very strong in the Bujinkan. Now Mr Hatsumi has removed his name from the Bujinkan. Maybe it is because he wants to get the correct information out as he wants it and not as a mistaken student does things.

Finally, as long as I have the wrath of a lot of Bujinkan members I think I should point out that this type of thread is not something I would expect from a typical school headquartered in Japan, but it does not surprise me considering that it about the Bujinkan. Mr Weidman, if you had questions about what your soke wanted, why didn't you try to find out by discrete inquiries to those with Mr Hatsumi's ear instead of asking a bunch of people on the internet? I recently took a look at some of the threads about the removal of Mr Hayes and the honbu administrator clearly asked people to stop making a fuss over the matter. In my experience, if someone in a _koryu kenjutsu_ system had a question about something like this, they would not throw out their dirty laundry for the rest of the world to see and let people who have never even met the soke to comment on what he wishes. I know this is not going to make me popular. But if you really want people in the Japanese martial art community to take your soke seriously you should consider how this type of thing reflects on him.


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## newtothe dark (Aug 23, 2007)

Wow heavy response MR E tell us what you really feel. hehe


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## Rubber Tanto (Aug 23, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> So if they were practicing the kata of the Togakure ryu, it would be correct.
> 
> But it is my understanding that most Bujinkan people do not even know the kata from the Togakure ryu. And typically if it is taught it follows the Gyokko and Koto ryus.
> 
> So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.


 
And so what? Don't try and change the rant. Devil Hanzo's original gripe was that people should not train with SKH because he does techniques wrong, and the example was that he was doing seigan no kamae and calling it ichimonji. But now we show a picture of Soke and takamatsu doing them and people confirm that yes these are ichimonji and you try to put a wrong kamae from wrong school spin on it. Ninja please.

And I don't think Daniel is making a fuss about SKH leaving the bujinkan. He just asked if its okay or not to train with him and if not, what was the official word.

Was it really that hard.


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## Mr. E (Aug 23, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> And so what? Don't try and change the rant. Devil Hanzo's original gripe was that people should not train with SKH because he does techniques wrong, and the example was that he was doing seigan no kamae and calling it ichimonji. But now we show a picture of Soke and takamatsu doing them and people confirm that yes these are ichimonji and you try to put a wrong kamae from wrong school spin on it. Ninja please.



I don't think you understand.

You are talking about ichimonji from the Togakure ryu. And I really doubt that Devil Hanzo learned kata from the Togakure ryu as a beggining student. Even I know that kata from that school are usually taught after Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu. So he was being taught something that was either Seigan no kamae from the Koto ryu while being told it was Ichimonji from the Gyokko ryu, or Ichimonji from the Togakure ryu.

In either case, he was learning forms such as _koku_ in stances that were not from the Gyokko ryu. That is not what Mr Hatsumi shows on the videos I have seen.

So it is wrong, unless you think that Mr Hatsumi is mistaken. 

Togakure ryu Ichimonji would be correct if begginers were learning Togakure ryu kata instead of things like the Kihon Happo from Gyokko ryu. But since that is not the case, then it looks like Mr Hayes is wrong and has been a big influence in the passing along of wrong information.

So I would think that this may be a huge reason why Mr Hatsumi does not want people to train with his ex-students like Mr Hayes.



> And I don't think Daniel is making a fuss about SKH leaving the bujinkan. He just asked if its okay or not to train with him and if not, what was the official word.



Why is he asking a bunch of people on the internet instead of sending his questions up the chain of command? Even people outside the Bujinkan know that Mr Hatsumi has made quite a few statements about the dangers of the internet. Aside from the flame wars, there is also the very real fact that if you want to know your soke's wishes you should ask him or someone close to him instead of just anyone with a modem and some spare time.


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## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 23, 2007)

> Wrong.
> 
> The picture of Takamatsu RT posted demonstrates the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji.


There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though. See this is the problem, people make mistakes and say them as fact over the internet and other inexperienced people will believe it. "BUT RICK UR SAYING WAT U THINK R FAX 2!!!!1!" Yeah, because I'm right, and I know I'm right. On this topic anyway. Please don't spread misinformation. 




> Where did you get this Richard? I mean - to make that kind of statement means you KNOW what all the kamae from the other 8 schools are, right?


If you train in the art, you should know where the kamae you're using come from. Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu. They are not interchangeable. There is only one way to do them. I know the Bujinkan is all about changing everything ever so slightly due to poor instruction and saying, "It's not wrong, you can do it this way too", but you can't. 

Do you know where 'kogeki no kamae' comes from?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 23, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though.


 
I seem to remember hearing something different from Sveneric(?) two years ago.


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## DWeidman (Aug 23, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko. What Takamatsu was doing in that picture was ICHI NO KAMAE from Togakure ryu. Not the same kamae. Valiant effort, though. See this is the problem, people make mistakes and say them as fact over the internet and other inexperienced people will believe it. "BUT RICK UR SAYING WAT U THINK R FAX 2!!!!1!" Yeah, because I'm right, and I know I'm right. On this topic anyway. Please don't spread misinformation.
> 
> 
> If you train in the art, you should know where the kamae you're using come from. Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu. They are not interchangeable. There is only one way to do them. I know the Bujinkan is all about changing everything ever so slightly due to poor instruction and saying, "It's not wrong, you can do it this way too", but you can't.
> ...



*yawn*

Densho please (all 9 schools).  If you don't have them, just say so.

Or give your source.

-Daniel


----------



## DWeidman (Aug 23, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> So it seems to me that Devil Hanzo is complaining about being taught Gyokko ryu kata while in a kamae from another school.



That is what you got from his posts?  Wow.



Mr. E said:


> ...So while we may not know the reason why they are different, that does not mean that there is no reason, no benefit for practicing the Gyokko ryu in a Gyokko ryu kamae instead of something from the Koto ryu or Togakure ryu.



Strawman.  Who on earth said differently.  Way to fight a battle with yourself.



Mr. E said:


> Now Mr Hatsumi has removed his name from the Bujinkan. Maybe it is because he wants to get the correct information out as he wants it and not as a mistaken student does things.



Maybe you should stop with your conjecture.  Honestly, unless you have had a conversation with the man about his intentions, then you are just taking WILD *** GUESSES.  



Mr. E said:


> Mr Weidman, if you had questions about what your soke wanted



Soke has been clear about his wishes.  I have had a face to face conversation with Phil Legare regarding the "Steve" incident.  With that said, it was NEVER mentioned that training with Steve was taboo.  Only that Steve had moved on and was no longer "In" the BJK.

Is that clear enough?

And then... to muddy the water - you say this:

_"And just to remind people, I know that Mr Hatsumi has stated that he does not want people who follow him to learn from people who are ex-students of his. There seems to be no specific comments in public about the Jinenkan or Genbukan. But people seem to understand that holding a seminar for the head of the Jinenkan would go against Mr Hatsumi's wishes. It seems clear that Mr Hayes is an ex student as well. So it would seem that the same situation applies."
_
Seem .... seems.... seem.  For someone NOT in the BJK, you are doing a lot of "seeming" on our behalf (without any direct knowledge).  

I started this thread because perhaps Soke has been DIRECT about it since I last talked to Phil.  If so... please say so.  

Or.... we can listen to Mr. E's conjecture -- he can tell us what he "seems" to think Soke thinks about it...

-Daniel


----------



## benkyoka (Aug 23, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> Ichimonji is from gyokko ryu. Seigan is from koto ryu.



I posted earlier but it seems to have been missed.  There is Seigan no kamae from the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.


----------



## DWeidman (Aug 23, 2007)

benkyoka said:


> I posted earlier but it seems to have been missed.  There is Seigan no kamae from the unarmed portion of kukishin ryu.



That can't be right.  Richard said you are wrong.  

hehehehehe.....

-Daniel


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 23, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> I started this thread because perhaps Soke has been DIRECT about it since I last talked to Phil.  If so... please say so.



Take a look at my first post. I asked if you could point me to a direct public statement by Mr Hatsumi about training in the Gembukan or the Jinenkan. AFAIK, there is none. You can only find him talking about training under "former students" and the like. If you ask around, you can get the full story- but not posted in public for all to see.

So why expect a direct public statement in this case? Why not ask 'Phil' about this as well? 



> Strawman. Who on earth said differently. Way to fight a battle with yourself.



You may not be saying it, but you are doing it.

Take a look at what Devil Hanzo wrote. He said that as a _beggining student_ he learned something called ichimonji no kamae and described it as being something other than what the Gyokko ryu version is. Now people are speculating that it may be Ichi No Kamae from the Togakure ryu, Seigan from the Kukishin ryu or something else.

But _as a begginer,_ should he not be learning the _kihon happo?_ And what school is that from? Gyokko ryu! So he never learned the Gyokko ryu version of doing Ichimonji no kamae while doing the kihon happo from that school. Devil Hanzo, please correct me if I am wrong.

And from my experience with various martial arts, taking a kamae from one school and using it in the kata from another is very, very wrong. But it is something that people in the Bujinkan are famous for. And it looks like this tendancy is very firmly based because Mr Hayes is responible for so much of the initial transmission of the art.


----------



## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 23, 2007)

> So he never learned the Gyokko ryu version of doing Ichimonji no kamae while doing the kihon happo from that school. Devil Hanzo, please correct me if I am wrong.


At Mark Davis's dojo we were never taught the proper way to do gyokko ryu ichimonji, we were taught Hayes's way of doing it. If you did ichimonji correctly, they would tell you not to do it that way.

Daniel, give me a break. Typical Bujinkan attitude. "PRESENT THE SCROLLS OR YOU KNOW NOTHING". Funny coming from a guy who trains under a soke who can't even prove the lineages of the majority of what he teaches. 

Anyway...

Take every Bujinkan teacher in the world and put them in a room and say, "Show me ichimonji no kamae" or "Show me renyo kata" or even "Show me fudo-ken tsuki", there'll be a ton of different results. Grab every teacher in the GBK or JNK and ask the same question, and it will all look exactly the same. Kamae, kata, striking, it'll all look the same. BECAUSE IT SHOULD. There should be no discussion or debate on which is the right way to do things within the organization because every teacher in the organization should be on the same page and teaching their students the same way. This is why the Bujinkan has crappy students with horrible taijutsu. There is no discussion, this has become a widely known fact by anyone with enough common sense to pull their head out of Hatsumi's *** that the Bujinkan is a joke now. 

Boston Martial Arts Center is a Bujinkan dojo run by a jugodan in the org. It should rank, teach, and structure the same way every other Bujinkan dojo does. Instead, you'll find Hayes's godai, kamae, elemental philosophies, etc. Mark trains with Steve and he visits the dojo. It's a To-Shin Do school with a Bujinkan name. Period. Hatsumi requested people not train with Tanemura or Manaka, so why would Hayes be any different? The ORIGINAL ORIGINAL post was about BMAC. I explained what I know, much to the chagrin of the BMAC members. Sorry.


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 23, 2007)

Devil Hanzo,

Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?

The question is about training with Mr Hayes. I really do not see how your post past your first paragraph helps with that discussion, if even that.

My observation is that Mr Hatsumi has never made a direct public statement about people not training with the Gembukan or Jinenkan. Only about not training with 'former students.' It seems clear that Mr Hatsumi is not pleased at all with Mr Hayes and that he is now an ex-student of the Bujinkan.

Preferably, someone should be asking their friends like Phil in Japan about the matter rather than air things out on the internet. Barring that, my speculation seems as valid as anything else. Really, I am aware of Bujinkan people that cross- train with the Jinenkan and justify it because Mr Hatsumi did not _specifically_ come and tell them to not do that. To me, it seems like they know that it is not what he wants and they are making excuses. I think that this may be a similar case. 

I do not think Mr Weidman is thinking of going out and training in Toshindo. But I think that some people will use the same excuse. I think we will see people saying that there is no public rule against what they are doing and they will not bother to ask those higher up in Japan.

And I think that if you have _any_ doubts, you ask someone who knows. Maybe not on the internet, but if you respect your teacher and there is any chance that you may offend him, you ere on the side of caution.

It almost seems like the way relationships are handled. We all probably know someone who is presented with the possibility of doing something that might offend their lover. They are  aware of the possibility. Some of those people will go ahead. Some will refrain until they know for sure. The ones that go ahead don't seem to care about their lovers as much as the latter. They only seem to care about their own desires and wants. And the people I know who act that way do not seem to have as stable a relationship as those that ask before acting. Nor do I really like them as people.


----------



## Devil_Hanzo (Aug 23, 2007)

> Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?
> 
> The question is about training with Mr Hayes. I really do not see how your post past your first paragraph helps with that discussion, if even that.



You're right. They should make a forum just for ex-Bujinkan members so we can vent. There's surely enough people to fill it up. 

I'll back out of this thread now before I derail it further.


----------



## Doc_Jude (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Devil Hanzo,
> 
> Do we really have to make this into a bash the Bujinkan thread?
> 
> ...



Yep, you got it. & if you want to know and can't bother asking Soke yourself, email George. He's tell you what's up. It never fails.

When I resume my training in Takamatsuden arts, & if I decided to train Jinenkan or Genbukan, or with Stephen Hayes, or, God forbid, Ralph Severe, I would most assuredly NOT consider myself a member of the Bujinkan anymore. Now, if sometime beyond that I saw the error of my ways and decided to return to the Bujinkan fold, I have no doubt I would be well-received. Of course, if you play musical dojos, don't expect much luv.


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Okay, well I'll ask this of those like Syd who train in Japan.
Syd, how does your sensei stand in these kamae?

I asked my sensei yesterday. First he showed me two styles of ichimonji. One where the inside hand covers around the shoulder and one where it is down near the elbow of the other arm. Then he showed me one kamae where he stood with the inside hand closer to the heart and said that was seigan. Maybe my descriptions suck, but I do my best.

In truth. I don't really care how other people stand in their kamae. If I can defend myself is important to me, spending more time getting emotional about what ryu the stance comes from is a little larpthetic. 

Now back on topic before you give sweet baby jesus cot-death.


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 24, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> In truth. I don't really care how other people stand in their kamae.



So you don't care what Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan says?

Do you have the Gyokko ryu DVD? You know, the one that was produced by the Soke of the Bujinkan himself? You will clearly see that he stands in an _Ichimonji no kamae_ that is exactly as Devil Hanzo describes.

Your teacher says different it seems. Well, I guess you are saying that he knows better than the soke of your art.

Or there is so much *incorrect* information running around that he does not know. And you are not willing to seek out deeper knowledge.

But of course, you are saying you don't care. What you have fits what you want to believe and has served you well until now.

But....there may be more to learn...greater depths  to learn... more skill to be had _if only_ you give up your ego and try to do things as closely as the soke of your style does.

Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say *they don't care* what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is. 

Go ahead, flame away at me. I can take it. You don't care what the soke of your system says. You won't research, you won't go back to the source. You will only stay within the narrow limits of what you know. If you take offense in what I say, how about going beyond what your (I assume less than skilled) teacher says and ask the most knowledgeable person you can think of? Doc Jude just pointed out that you need to go to the source- are you saying you will stay only in the safe areas of what your teacher says?

I predict right here and now that you will respond in some way to me rather than seek out someone more knowledgable than your second- rate teacher.


----------



## benkyoka (Aug 24, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> Okay, well I'll ask this of those like Syd who train in Japan.
> Syd, how does your sensei stand in these kamae?



Sorry Nick, I am hesitant to put any descriptions of this sort of thing, as people tend to take things they read on the internet as fact.  If I posted a mistake due to my inexperience or inability to properly express what I have been shown it would still make the rounds.  

If I have time I could look at my notes and see what is written in the densho for the kamae, but most of my stuff is packed away as I am moving within a few weeks and I am also busy dealing with my 5 and a half week old daughter.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say *they don't care* what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is.


 
At least he cares about making something useful out of his training, for what it's worth.

Let's not forget about all the people who neither care about research or *any kind* of functionality, and just want to move around and feel better about themselves.


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> So you don't care what Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan says?


 
Can you show me where I said that? You like putting words into other peoples mouths, Mr E, politicians, crooks and cowards do that. I dislike all three. I just said I don't really care how other people stand in kamae.

What you imply is like saying that because you don't care how other people fill out their tax returns you have blatent disregard for the law. Give me a break brother. Go preach you high and mighty crap somewhere else. It's pathetic.



> Do you have the Gyokko ryu DVD? You know, the one that was produced by the Soke of the Bujinkan himself? You will clearly see that he stands in an _Ichimonji no kamae_ that is exactly as Devil Hanzo describes.


 
No not really. I prefer to actually train with real people and not watch videos about martial arts...is that what you mean by self defense in your primary style? You train from videos? Figures.  Though I heard there's a good Jet Li film coming out. Perhaps you could learn some good wushu stances from them.


> Your teacher says different it seems. Well, I guess you are saying that he knows better than the soke of your art.


Again putting worsds in my mouth. Tisk tisk.
I just asked him what he knew. He showed me.
My sensei was primarily taight in Japan by Nagato by the way. Maybe you would like to draft a letter up or go visit Nagato-sensei in person telling him of your distaste of his teaching methods?



> Or there is so much *incorrect* information running around that he does not know. And you are not willing to seek out deeper knowledge.


 
"Hello officer...yes I think I found the guy that stole that _Lord of the Rings_ script...he's reading it out on Martial Talk right now!"



> But of course, you are saying you don't care. What you have fits what you want to believe and has served you well until now.


EXACTLY. See you say that to sound as an insult. But brother this is the perfect example why you just don't get it. Because while you spent last night talking about how foolish I am for not knowing the exact terminology for a posture I was doing randori with a 6 foot 4 130kg mountain of a man who picked me up as if I was a toddler and threw me to the ground with one arm. I then spent 45 minutes fighting him until with ure taijutsu, capturing space, balance and working on perfect timing I finally broke free of him and actually submitted him. I was left bruised and bleeding but I figured out some ways I can use my taijutsu to defeat people that I couldn't the day before. And repeated kata or the specific names of kamae and the history behind the ryu they come from where never going to do that. 

So while you live high and mighty in you text book martial fantasy world throwing 12 sided dice and thinking thats learning how to fight, the rest of us will just focus on training and making it work when it counts. The names of things will mean nothing at that moment. Trust me...I know.



> But....there may be more to learn...greater depths to learn... more skill to be had _if only_ you give up your ego and try to do things as closely as the soke of your style does.


 
Honestly that things you say only show how foolish and ignorant you can be. If I was all about ego, my friend I would not be out there testing my art against others from other arts. Copping beatings in the pursuit of what does and doesn't work and how to find parts of my taijutsu that can fill the gaps. If I had an ego I would stick to my compliant two man kata, looking pretty as the colour on my belt darkens and the stars around my patch cluster. You have a brain. Use it.



> Honestly, IMO you are a matter of shame to the Bujinkan. I have a great respect for the Soke of the nine traditions of the Bujinkan. It is people like you that come straight out and say *they don't care* what is correct that makes it the laughingstock it is.


 
If I am a shame to teh bujinkan then so be it. To date though I have proven to BJJ, Muay Thai, Boxers, Kick boxers, Kung Fu practitioners, MMA trainers and the like that BJK from MY SCHOOL, and the way we train it can be effective. I have earnt my school respect. I have tested theories and made them work. I have had people say "man I thought the BJK was utter crap but you sure proved me wrong" If Soke is ashamed of me for that...the so be it.

What makes the BJK a laughing stock is not me my friend...It the 1000 plus you tube clips of fat unhealthy so called godans that can't swing a boken without falling over and look like thayed have less trouble pushing open burger king front doors then pushing over their uke.



> Go ahead, flame away at me. I can take it. You don't care what the soke of your system says. You won't research, you won't go back to the source. You will only stay within the narrow limits of what you know. If you take offense in what I say, how about going beyond what your (I assume less than skilled) teacher says and ask the most knowledgeable person you can think of? Doc Jude just pointed out that you need to go to the source- are you saying you will stay only in the safe areas of what your teacher says?
> 
> I predict right here and now that you will respond in some way to me rather than seek out someone more knowledgable than your second- rate teacher.


 
The fact you insulted my sensei is enough to show your true colours buddy. Its the big mouth internet warriors like you thinking you know lots because you watch videos that does it.

I don't care much for rank etc...but seeing as YOU care so much about what soke says, then maybe you can go tell him that you think him a fool for giving a second rate teacher such high rank. Perhaps you are man enough to come visit me and tell me to my face what you think of my teacher? Perhaps you could put his teaching method to the test?


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> At least he cares about making something useful out of his training, for what it's worth..


 
Nim, I know you and I have not always seen eye to eye. But thank you for that. Its the only claim I have ever tried to make.

I have a real dislike when you try to discuss something maturely and one person turns it into an insult-slinging personal attack because they don't have a better way to present their viewpoint.


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

benkyoka said:


> Sorry Nick, I am hesitant to put any descriptions of this sort of thing, as people tend to take things they read on the internet as fact. If I posted a mistake due to my inexperience or inability to properly express what I have been shown it would still make the rounds.
> 
> If I have time I could look at my notes and see what is written in the densho for the kamae, but most of my stuff is packed away as I am moving within a few weeks and I am also busy dealing with my 5 and a half week old daughter.


 
Nah don't worry about it Syd.
I'll just stick to being the foolish infidel BJK laughingstock that I am and not worry about it.:mst:


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 24, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> No not really. I prefer to actually train with real people and not watch videos about martial arts...is that what you mean by self defense in your primary style? You train from videos? Figures.



You see? That is the problem. You just wrote a huge attack on me for showing how wrong you were.

Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan produced a DVD on the Gyokko ryu. I would think that what he had shown in this video would be something you would want to look for when you want to see what Ichimonji from that school should look like. Instead, you refuse and attack me for even suggesting it.

When you boil down all the posturing that you made and the attacks you made on me, it comes down to you doing your own thing instead of checking to see what the soke of your art is doing. I know you don't want to think of it as being driven by ego, but after the way you went on about how you 'proved' your art against BJJers, etc, there really is no other conclusion.

Instead of trying to do things your own way, any real student would be looking more towards what the head of their art says to do. And again, in regards to Gyokko ryu ichimonji no kamae that would mean looking to what Mr Hatsumi has produced rather than a lower ranked teacher.

There is a lot of wrong information out there. Some of seems to be spread by your teacher. A lot of it probably comes from Stephen Hayes. Since that is the case, why would anyone think that it is ok with Mr Hatsumi to train with Mr Hayes? After all, Mr Hatsumi ordered Mr Hayes' name to be taken down during the middle of class in full view of everyone there. He does not even seem to have done that with Mr Manaka or Mr Tanemura.


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> You see? That is the problem. You just wrote a huge attack on me for showing how wrong you were.
> 
> Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan produced a DVD on the Gyokko ryu. I would think that what he had shown in this video would be something you would want to look for when you want to see what Ichimonji from that school should look like. Instead, you refuse and attack me for even suggesting it.


 
Um actually dude...you didn't prove anything. Look:



			
				Devil Hanzo said:
			
		

> ...instead of a fudoken at the crook of the elbow.





			
				Rubber Tanto said:
			
		

> ... and one where it is down near the elbow of the other arm.


 
My sensei mentioned the same one Devil did. He just said its not the only one. Others here are saying its not the only one. The one Devil Hanzo mentioned has been mentioned by all here to be from Gyokko Ryu,  my sensei says its from Gyokku Ryu and low and behold, your telling me that I am wrong...because it can be seen on a *Gyokku Ryu* video.

So what is your disagreement?
Do you even read before you type?
yeesh!



> There is a lot of wrong information out there. Some of seems to be spread by your teacher.


Again the insults against my teacher. 
So what was the wrong info...are you now saying it IS NOT from Gyokku Ryu? WTF?


LOL Whatever man.
Enjoy your "self defence" training.


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 24, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> My sensei mentioned the same one Devil did. He just said its not the only one.



But it *is* the only one on the DVD by Mr Hatsumi. We all know those DVDs are not to learn from, but to be used as a form of reference. So why not use them as such?

Instead you ask me to come to your dojo and tell things to your face. Aren't we both a bit old for challenge matches and other testosterone- driven behavior? All these personel attacks like trying to say I learn from videos, the call to meet you in person- these are not the sort of things I think your soke would approve of if he could read it.

And if you think that this reflects poorly on the Bujinkan, you can't blame me and you can't blame your soke. It was you who started in on the attacks.

So why don't you leave it alone so we can discuss the matter of training with Mr Hayes?


----------



## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> But it *is* the only one on the DVD by Mr Hatsumi.


Hang on...in case I am misunderstanding you. Did you say the video was of Gyokku ryu only or on ALL of the 9 ryu?



> Instead you ask me to come to your dojo and tell things to your face. Aren't we both a bit old for challenge matches and other testosterone- driven behavior?


 
Not at all. Takamatsu sensei was still sparring when he was in his 40s and 50s. I'm only 35...there's still some bite in me! :whip1: Besides what better way to say who's training is effective and whos is based on theory?




> All these personel attacks like trying to say I learn from videos, the call to meet you in person- these are not the sort of things I think your soke would approve of if he could read it.
> 
> And if you think that this reflects poorly on the Bujinkan, you can't blame me and you can't blame your soke. It was you who started in on the attacks.


 
Dude...I asked my sensei for some input on this discussion and you decided to label him a second rate teacher even though he said the same thing as the guy you chipped in to defend. If you think that didn't start in on teh attacks then you need to take a good look at yourself.

As for my dojo. we have a history of pressure testing our taijutsu. We are none too concerened with testing what we know, regardless of the results. If you feel intimaidated by testing what you know, don't try and turn me into a thug, just because I was willing to stand by the integrity of the man I call my teacher and you chose to insult.

Nevertheless, yes continue insulting and putting down Hayes. If that is what you wish.


----------



## Mr. E (Aug 24, 2007)

Rubber Tanto said:


> Hang on...in case I am misunderstanding you. Did you say the video was of Gyokku ryu only or on ALL of the 9 ryu?



That is what Devil Hanzo said he was learning. And can you point me to something produced by Mr Hatsumi that has something called _ichimonji no kamae_ as a stance? Not _ichi no kamae_ from the Togakure ryu or _Seigan no kamae_ from either the Koto or the Kukishin ryu. I am talking about something produced and controlled by Mr Hatsumi that shows something called _ichimonji no kamae_ as Devil Hanzo describes. I do not want something done by any of his students on either a web site, video or personal comment. I want to check with the source. This may not sound like an important point, but just because you don't understand how it can be important does not mean that it is not.


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## Rubber Tanto (Aug 24, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> That is what Devil Hanzo said he was learning.


 
What?

You said that the kamae hatsumi is showing is _the_ kamae. I pointed out that others say there a various different forms of the same stance among the ryu. You said that the DVD shows the only version of that kamae. And all I asked you was if the dvd was for ALL 9 ryu. If it isn't that you are just wasting bandwidth.

I didn't ask you what Devil is learning.




> And can you point me to something produced by Mr Hatsumi that has something called _ichimonji no kamae_ as a stance? Not _ichi no kamae_ from the Togakure ryu or _Seigan no kamae_ from either the Koto or the Kukishin ryu. I am talking about something produced and controlled by Mr Hatsumi that shows something called _ichimonji no kamae_ as Devil Hanzo describes.


 
No I can't. Sorry. I can't even find a picture on teh net of anyone in the bujinkan in ichi no kamae (only 3 pictures from a kendo school) and not one picture  of anyone in the bujinkan in seigan no kamae without a sword. So no at present moment I cannot. I did find many pictures of bujinkan people in the two versions of Ichimonji no kamae as described earlier though. 

Wow...All these high ranked people keep going to japan...doing the wrong stances from the kihon happo and still getting rank from soke. He's not even bothering to correct them on their basic kamae...Go figure.



> I do not want something done by any of his students on either a web site, video or personal comment. I want to check with the source. This may not sound like an important point, but just because you don't understand how it can be important does not mean that it is not.


 
The best I can do is go through the books we have at our dojo tomorrow morning. Other than that...I don't buddy...why don't you go to the source, since you want it so bad...or better yet...get on the matts with someone high ranked in the BJK and ...here's an idea ...train in this art.


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## benkyoka (Aug 24, 2007)

(Let's hope this works)


From Hatsumi's Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu book from 1983:





You can see the name ichimonji no kamae (&#19968;&#25991;&#23383;&#12398;&#27083;&#12360 on the bottom right.

And a close up:




From Hatsumi's Hiden Ninja Submission from 1981:



and the opposite page which lists it as ichimonji no kamae:




and a close up:




If the links don't work properly I will have to do some resizing.


----------



## althaur (Aug 24, 2007)

Well, look at that.  Seems that maybe Sensei even thinks that the kamae may have different looks depending on the school.  Hmmm.

Thnaks for the pics.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2007)

benkyoka said:


> (Let's hope this works)
> 
> 
> From Hatsumi's Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu book from 1983:
> ...


 
Thanks for the input and the pictures Syd.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 27, 2007)

Truthfully it is sometimes very hard to study this art. (I think everyone knows what I mean)  You see there are many teachers and many interpretations of Soke's Budo.  This is a strength of a living system and yet a weakness at times as well.  Personally I try to not worry too much and just train under competant teachers and improve as much as possible.  Obviously it is not all that I do but my experience in other systems has shown me the same thing over and over again.  No matter what system you study there will be personal interpretation and movement based on someones unique abilities.  Someone who is large may have  a slightly different posture in Ichimonji no Kamae than someone who is more athletic or someone that is old may also move differently than someone who is young.  I have personally observed Soke do Ichimonji no Kamae a couple of different ways. (at least I think he did as the transition was very quick)  Bottom line is that we all train in an moving system and even though some bickering may occur here on line we all know that over a beer and good food we are all on the same path and attempting to learn this particular form of Budo.


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## DWeidman (Aug 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Truthfully it is sometimes very hard to study this art. (I think everyone knows what I mean) ...


 
True.  However ...

*WHERE IS MR. E and DEVIL HANZO NOW??????????????*

*Seems that Richard Hundley MIGHT NOT BE CORRECT?????????????*

*DEAR GOD, SAY IT ISN'T SO?????? <GASP!>*

*Syd:  Can you check the author of those books:  I assume the book is written by SKH or RT's Second-Rate retarded instructor..... RIGHT???*

How come neither of these two have come out here and said....

"MMMMMMMM - MY FOOT TASTES GOOD".

Sack it up and eat some crow...

-Daniel

PS.  How did heck did RT get banned????!?!?!?!?!?!?


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## DWeidman (Aug 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> ...Bottom line is that we all train in an moving system and even though some bickering may occur here on line we all know that over a beer and good food we are all on the same path and attempting to learn this particular form of Budo.


 
Actually - bottom line is that the bikering in this thread is from two people who aren't learning this form of Budo at all (or did everyone miss that?)

One of them USED to train in it (and knows more than EVERYONE else in the world).... and the other has FRIENDS who train in it... 

Just needed to clarify that...

-Daniel


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## rutherford (Aug 27, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> PS.  How did heck did RT get banned????!?!?!?!?!?!?



Actually, out of the whole thread that was the only thing I was wondering too.  He and I definitely don't see eye to eye about a few things, but I've got no clue how he upset the MT staff.  Maybe he got into an argument with Bob about a MySpace page.


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## benkyoka (Aug 28, 2007)

In a conversation (off-board) with RT, he stated that he was permanently banned for challenging Mr. E.


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## Mr. E (Aug 28, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> and the other has FRIENDS who train in it...



Oh, if you only knew the full story. If you only knew who I consider my friends and my history with them. Then you would know why I am confident in what I say, even now. But the famous Bujinkan reputation of eating its own prevents me from giving them up to you.

I did not come into this thread to embarrass the Bujinkan. But it has been shamed by the actions of a few people. I did not want RT to be banned, I even gave him a chance to explain that he did not want to challenge me, that he really just wanted me to see how they train so I would understand. If he had, he probably would still be here. It still amazes me that people would sign up here and yet not even read the rules. And he is not the only one whose behavior has caused concern.

There has been too much shame brought on the Bujinkan name due to this thread. I am really sorry I helped cause shame to the art of a man I deeply respect. If I could turn back time, I would have listened to my inner voice telling me to stay out rather than get into a flame fest so soon after the last thread was closed.

:asian:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Super Moderator-
*


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 28, 2007)

*It is not MT policy to go into the specifics of any particular ban, however it was from actions here, and it was by decision of the MT Steering Board.

Please return to the origional topic.*

*Brian R. VanCise*
*MartialTalk Super Moderator*


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## rutherford (Aug 28, 2007)

Hey, you didn't sign it.  You want to talk about it more, send me a PM.


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## alfyed11 (Aug 28, 2007)

As much as I'm still licking my scratches from the last thread I got involved in, Mr. E, are you speaking from personal experience in the Bujinkan? Have you left due to that? 

- JAF (you can call me Al)


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## eyebeams (Aug 29, 2007)

This is all somewhat irrelevant, as I've seen how Hayes teaches Ichimonji in the classical kihon vid, and it is with the rear hand at the crook of the lead arm. He lists shuto and fudoken as possible variations for the rear hand. He also specifically calls the rear-hand-at-delt posture seigan from kotoryu.


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## DWeidman (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Oh, if you only knew the full story. If you only knew who I consider my friends and my history with them. Then you would know why I am confident in what I say, even now. But the famous Bujinkan reputation of eating its own prevents me from giving them up to you.



I understand.  It goes right along with your Mr. E (Mystery) - No name, no location, No style, stand at the side and tell us what we are doing wrong... according to your nameless "friends".  Funny, I used to go by that moniker about 12 yrs ago when I thought I was being clever as well... Oh well, I like putting my name next to my posts.  Seems.... what is the word... honorable? (instead of hiding...).

Seriously, this is almost laughable...

Syd just showed a pic of Soke - in a book written by Soke - directly contracting a load of crap you tried to dump on RT (and his second rate instructor...) - and you stand by your "nameless friends" and your conviction that you are still right.

Amazing.



Mr. E said:


> ...It still amazes me that people would sign up here and yet not even read the rules.



Yeah... I guess spending about a thousand hours on boards over the years makes you think you know the basic rules.  Of course... this is martial _talk _- instead of Martial _Act_...  so things are a little... _softer_ here.  Makes it nice... to hide behind... 

Most MARTIAL boards, for example, seem to like people to post with their real name....  Seems kinda against the warrior principles to hide behind a fake name... eh?



Mr. E said:


> And he is not the only one whose behavior has caused concern.



Oooooh.  I am restless.  Will hardly be able to sleep tonight.  I wonder who else is causing "concern".



Mr. E said:


> There has been too much shame brought on the Bujinkan name due to this thread.



Says you.  Which reminds me... you aren't in the BJK are you?  So why does this concern you so?

As a last point, then I am logging off for the night...  The BJK is far greater than this little corner of the Interwebs.  I somehow doubt that any significant damage or benefit will come from this tiny little thread.  But you keep dreaming big man...  I mean... your opinion about us COUNTS.  LOTS.  I know the rest of the BJK is getting a letter right now on how to handle the public relations nightmare that this thread is going to cause, once CNN gets a hold of it...

Whatever dude.

-Daniel (Yep - that is my name...)


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## DWeidman (Aug 29, 2007)

Devil_Hanzo said:


> There is no such thing as the Togakure ryu version of ichimonji no kamae. Ichimonji no kamae is done ONE way, from ONE ryu: Gyokko.



Just in case everyone missed it.  ;-)

then..



Mr. E said:


> That is what Devil Hanzo said he was learning. And can you point me to something produced by Mr Hatsumi that has something called _ichimonji no kamae_ as a stance?
> ...I do not want something done by any of his students on either a web site, video or personal comment. I want to check with the source. This may not sound like an important point, but just because you don't understand how it can be important does not mean that it is not.



Done.  

And still... nothing.  Not even a "wow, I might be wrong".  Nothing.

Amazing.

-Daniel (yep, that is my name)

PS.  Seriously, I don't expect you to come out and actually reply to this again.  I am sure this is easier to deal with... silently.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 29, 2007)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy **http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sho...d.php?p=427486**. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Brian R. VanCise
-MartialTalk Super Moderator-
*


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## Doc_Jude (Aug 29, 2007)

DWeidman said:


> Just in case everyone missed it.  ;-)
> 
> then..
> 
> ...





Silence is the way of the Ninja. I think that we all could learn something from the Ninja Masters of old.


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## alfyed11 (Aug 29, 2007)

Admitting you are incorrect is the way of someone who takes responsibility for his mistake. That whole silence thing would've come in handy about 10 posts ago.


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

alfyed11 said:


> Admitting you are incorrect is the way of someone who takes responsibility for his mistake.



Then perhaps you might want to take the time to apologize for the accusation you made about me? Hmmmm?

Mr Weidman- ok, I asked for an example and I got it. I still trust my sources on this matter. I think I said something to that effect in my last post, first paragraph. I think you are in danger of getting in trouble for your behavior over this matter and I do not want another Bujinkan member to bring shame to Mr Hatsumi- a man I greatly respect. So I will admit that there are photos I had not been aware of to try to stop that from happening.


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## ToShinDoKa (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr. E said:


> Isn't that _seigan no kamae_ from the _Koto ryu?_


 
Yes it's seigan, and if you owned the Togakure ryu Taijutsu Kihon Material, you would have heard him mention this.  Also, in Van Donk's course, this same kamae is called ichimonji, and he doesn't even teach the Gyokko ryu Ichimonji no kamae.  Research, anyone?


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## Mr. E (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr Weidman,
I thought of some sources you can check that have already given their names. I am sure they will be savaged for it, but there names are already out there and I am not betraying them by listing them again.

You may recall that years ago there was an announcement in the _Bujinkan Honbu Dojo itself_ that Mr Hatsumi did not want people training or associating with three people. Two of the names were Japanese, the third was Mr Hayes.

The person making the announcement was Toshiro Nagato. Some of the people there like Ed Lomax and Tim Bathhurst passed along the announcement as they were asked and were attacked for it. The story was passed off as a rumor started by jealous people by Mr Hayes. Mr Hayes then made a trip _for a single session_ with Mr Hatsumi after several years of not training with him. He repeated it a while later. Then Mr Hatsumi ordered that his name be removed from the Bujinkan board. You know this to be true.

If it was the word to not train or associate with Mr Hayes _before_ his name was removed, what makes you think that it is now ok after this huge show of disaproval?

You have the names of people. You are registered at web sites where they post. Why not ask them if they had heard anything to indicate that things had changed?


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## alfyed11 (Aug 29, 2007)

Mr E...um...I'll just presume your last name ends with an E...

You don't train in this art? Why are you so active in this area? I'm not trying to be particularly insulting, but don't understand why you are involved in discussions about an art you only hear about from "friends" who train in it.

??

- Al (yes, Al, but that is short for...oh, nevermind)


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## Lisa (Aug 29, 2007)

*This thread has been the cause of multiple RTM's and is being locked pending Admin Review.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assist. Admin*


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