# taiji's position in CMA



## ggg214 (Nov 10, 2008)

although i am not so clear about taiji's history, in my mind, taiji is a young style, comparing with shaolin, wudang or other CMA.
young doesn't mean simple or junior. young means short history, means when it's invented, the founders have enough resource to research.these resources include shaolin, wudang or other CMAs. i should say that taiji is more complicated and standing in the senior level of CMA. 
in taiji's history, many grandmasters are experts in external martial arts before they started taiji training. we may conclude that taiji is not for basic fundation, but for higher pracitition.

looking forward to your opinion!


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 10, 2008)

Verifiable history goes to Chen Wangting &#38472;&#29579;&#24311;(1600-1680),

Mythological origin is Zhang Sanfeng who, if he lived, is was likely in either the Yuan Dynasty (1279-1368) or the Sung Dynasty (969-1126) or the Southern Sung Dynasty (1127-1279) and even though someone did make a reference that would put him in the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644) for any of the histories to work he can't be from the Ming Dynasty.


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## grydth (Nov 10, 2008)

It does appear to make a very significant difference whether one dates Tai Chi based upon mythological/legendary sources or more modern, objectively verifiable sources.

Then, of course, there are the evolutionary changes within Tai Chi... but even though forms and practices as seen today may differ greatly from what was used even 100 years ago, most date a Tai Chi family style from its earliest verifiable founder.

I confess to not knowing a great deal about many CMA which I have never practiced (this section of Martial Talk being a continuing voyage of humility), but I would not contest that a number of CMA do predate it.

To me, though, Tai Chi is indeed a basic foundation.... almost anyone can do it at some level, especially with the guidance of skilled and patient teachers. While people like myself had a start in external arts (karate, iaido). I have seen many others in this region for whom it is their first brush with any martial art.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 11, 2008)

There is also some speculation that taiji comes from before Chen Wangting if the claims of the Zhaobao taiji folks are correct then it may be.

Xingyiquan is verifiable to Ma Xueli (about 1707-1813) of Henan Province and Dai Longbang (&#25140;&#40857;&#24110; 1720 - 1809) of Shanxi Province. Legend, however, credits the invention of Xingyiquan to the renowned Song Dynasty (960-1279 AD) general Yue Fei.

Baguazhang is said to be from Dong Haiquan &#33891;&#28023;&#24029; Born sometime between 1797 1nd 1813 died 1882. However there has been some speculation that someone taught it to him. And if the claims of the Yin Yang Bagua school are true then he did learn it form someone else but then that is "IF" the claims are true.

Chángquán &#38271;&#25331; Long Fist the base was developed in the 10th century by Zhao Kuangyin, founding Emperor of the Song Dynasty (960&#8211;1279).

Shaolin
The oldest evidence of Shaolin participation in combat is 728 which is from the Tang Dynasty (618-907) But there is some speculation that it may be found as far back as 446.
Legendary, and pretty much proven false, origin is Bodhidharma - early 5th century 

Shuaijiao &#25684;&#35282; Earliest reference 2697 BC to a martial art called j&#464;ao d&#464; that is believed to be the origin of shuaijiao


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