# USOC Slaps Down USAT- Link to Ruling



## TaekwondoDad (Jan 12, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/l.php?u=htt...QEJcZVcAQGCbKnTQnxCned4k_4snIvartVJ5Nec_rPGGg

Here you go.  Red meat for lunch.  Enjoy


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## Gorilla (Jan 12, 2012)

Looks like a bit of softball ruling to me!


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## ATC (Jan 12, 2012)

Yeah it was not much of anything really.


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## Gorilla (Jan 13, 2012)

The USOC has always been part of the problem.  I do not know why I expected more.  Our coach said it was to good to be true and she was right.  When are we going to be allowed to have real leadership in  Sport TKD.  Cronyism does not stop at the USAT it has a home at the USOC.


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2012)

ATC said:


> Yeah it was not much of anything really.



I do not know what to say if that is really what you think. That ruling was very significant.


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> The USOC has always been part of the problem.  I do not know why I expected more.  Our coach said it was to good to be true and she was right.  When are we going to be allowed to have real leadership in  Sport TKD.  Cronyism does not stop at the USAT it has a home at the USOC.



The USOC leadership today is different from the leadership from 2004. One thing the hearing panel said was that they do not want a repeat of what happened in 2004, when things were changed abruptly that should not have been changed. Consequently, the USOC Hearing Panel, and the USOC is taking a measured, thoughtful, long term, big picture approach, in one way by NOT reacting or responding to illogical irrational hysteria or heckling, like last time. I give the USOC credit for this approach. They want to do the right thing, and is taking the time to do it right.


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## Gorilla (Jan 13, 2012)

I went back and read the ruling just to see if I missed something. They praised the illegal hiring of the interim CEO as positive step.  He is part of the problem and has to go.  If anyone who was involved in this bad organization is left it will continue to go down hill.  As far as 2004 as I have some idea of what went on I am not as poorly connected as you might think.


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I went back and read the ruling just to see if I missed something. They praised the illegal hiring of the interim CEO as positive step.  He is part of the problem and has to go.  If anyone who was involved in this bad organization is left it will continue to go down hill.  As far as 2004 as I have some idea of what went on I am not as poorly connected as you might think.




I understand some feel that Mr. Parthen's hiring was "illegal". In fact, his hiring was suggested and paid for by the USOC, which I believe at least some of the complaintants consented to. I do not believe that USAT had a real option of refusal on the matter. I also think that the reason why the USOC Hearing Panel praised the hiring of "an interim CEO" (not specifically Mr. Parthen) was because it was a suggestion from the USOC, and they wished to praise all efforts by USAT to comply with the USOC's wishes and suggestions. They were not praising Mr. Parthen specifically, but rather they were praising the act of hiring an interim CEO to "address certain management issues".

Mr. Parthen also said that if and when a new board is seated, he will leave it up to them whether he is to be retained or not, and that he would not be filing an application for the position. So the likelihood that he will remain if and when a new board is put in place is highly doubtful. I will say that Mr. Parthen's chances of retention would have been much greater had he not taken such a proactive role in the complaint process that he had. If it were me in his shoes, as interim CEO I would have stayed out of the proceedings completely, the justification being that the complaints deal with policy making issues, and not the day to day operations which is his charge as CEO. 

PS: I never said that you were "poorly connected". That is your phrase, not mine.


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## msmitht (Jan 13, 2012)

Hopefully there will be a change for the better. We need a better grassroots system and a complete overhaul in the coaching dept.


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## puunui (Jan 13, 2012)

msmitht said:


> We need a better grassroots system and a complete overhaul in the coaching dept.



grassroots = state associations. As for the coaching committee, there is at least one plan for that already worked out, designed to, among other things, improve the quality and quantity of athletes and coaches nationwide. Can't say much about it at the moment, "always in motion is the future", but I will say that those who participate the most will be rewarded and further encouraged for their contributions.


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## RSweet (Jan 16, 2012)

I have no doubt that Parthen's hiring was facilitated and paid for by USOC. I am sure that after a few weeks of dealing with Kevin Padilla directly and realizing how incompetent he is, they would have accepted anyone. I am sure they made a condition of some kind. However, I am also sure that the USOC wrongly assumed that Padilla would go back to the BOD and get them to legalize the hiring as Padilla can't hire a USAT CEO. The USOC can't hire a USAT CEO unless they have assumed control of the organization as they did in 2004. Fact is that Dr. Jason Han testified that he found out about the hiring when he read it. He did not vote. No AAC involvement here. This leaves the "illegal" cloud over Parthen as the faux BOD Chair can't hire a CEO no matter who tells them to do it. I think they gave him too much credit for brains he does not have and assumed he would legitimize the hiring by having a vote - but he did just what Mark WIlliams did to get elected to the BOD, he never took the vote. As of the hearing, there still hadn't been one putting all actions by Parthens under some kind of cloud. All the d*ps*** had to do was take a vote and post the minutes. This could have been part of why the ruling states they are out of compliance on management competency and effectiveness. If some of the complaintants agreed, not all did and the AAC representative, that 20% required by the Ted Stevens Act were not given the opportunity. Lack of transparency causing more problems.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2012)

RSweet said:


> All the d*ps*** had to do was take a vote and post the minutes.



And if that were done, then the argument would have been there is no quorum and therefore the vote was "illegal". So what does it really matter?


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## RSweet (Jan 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> And if that were done, then the argument would have been there is no quorum and therefore the vote was "illegal". So what does it really matter?


 Actually I was referring to Mark Williams and NASTO. Mark wanted to add states that had applied for a 501c3 but had not received it. He polled legit states and asked if they would support. Pretty much all agreed they would, many to get Mark out of their face. So Mark took that as permission but never actually called the vote.

As far as the other one, the quorum issue is very valid as is the lack of 20% athlete representation. Eric Laurin was not given due process and during the period where he recused himself, the BOD did not contact the USOC Alternate AAC Rep although the bylaws specifically stated that the next highest voter getter of the opposite sex would be the alternate. in that the BOD did not contact Ms. Kunkel, the athletes were denied full athlete representation since last June.

Giving whomever in the USOC came up with Mr. Parthen, who was unemployed since last Feb and sitting in COS, they benefit of the doubt perhaps they did not realize that there were issues with the quorum and the 20% AAC representation or they would not have set USAT on yet another path to more legal action. Or that Mr. Padilla had violated Section 8 of the bylaws by not holding a chair election the first meeting of the odd year and then illegally continuing to hold that position.

The lack of transparency (also noted by the USOC Hearing Panel in their ruling) tends to create an atmosphere of suspicion of anyone involved with USAT leadership at this moment. All they would have had to do would be to disclose the meeting minutes (none posted since 8/19/11) and those attending and voting. The refusal to disclose the actions of this board in the last year gives the membership in general the feeling they are violating laws and bylaws. Perhaps that is why it is one of the key findings against USAT.


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## puunui (Jan 16, 2012)

RSweet said:


> Actually I was referring to Mark Williams and NASTO. Mark wanted to add states that had applied for a 501c3 but had not received it. He polled legit states and asked if they would support. Pretty much all agreed they would, many to get Mark out of their face. So Mark took that as permission but never actually called the vote.



And if you asked Mark about all of this, like I did, he would tell you that if ANYONE else, including Kim, wanted to step up and do the job, he would have gladly let them.




RSweet said:


> As far as the other one, the quorum issue is very valid as is the lack of 20% athlete representation. Eric Laurin was not given due process and during the period where he recused himself, the BOD did not contact the USOC Alternate AAC Rep although the bylaws specifically stated that the next highest voter getter of the opposite sex would be the alternate. in that the BOD did not contact Ms. Kunkel, the athletes were denied full athlete representation since last June.



So what is the point, that no matter what USAT did, it would have been wrong? 




RSweet said:


> Giving whomever in the USOC came up with Mr. Parthen, who was unemployed since last Feb and sitting in COS, they benefit of the doubt perhaps they did not realize that there were issues with the quorum and the 20% AAC representation or they would not have set USAT on yet another path to more legal action. Or that Mr. Padilla had violated Section 8 of the bylaws by not holding a chair election the first meeting of the odd year and then illegally continuing to hold that position.



Then perhaps you should go complain to the USOC about that. 




RSweet said:


> The lack of transparency (also noted by the USOC Hearing Panel in their ruling) tends to create an atmosphere of suspicion of anyone involved with USAT leadership at this moment. All they would have had to do would be to disclose the meeting minutes (none posted since 8/19/11) and those attending and voting. The refusal to disclose the actions of this board in the last year gives the membership in general the feeling they are violating laws and bylaws. Perhaps that is why it is one of the key findings against USAT.



That might all be true. However, I think you are missing the point, which is the membership doesn't want to hear about all the ways that USAT has screwed up anymore. they know already, and they know that the USOC knows. What they want is for things to get better. And in my opinion, I think that we will accomplish that  much quicker by listening to the USOC and complying with their wishes, which includes the hiring of an interim CEO. I do not think that the USOC believes that Mr. Parthen is the long term solution. Do you?


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## RSweet (Jan 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> And if you asked Mark about all of this, like I did, he would tell you that if ANYONE else, including Kim, wanted to step up and do the job, he would have gladly let them.


  Actually I did communicate with Mark. And considering sometimes the story changes, I got it all from him in writing. Mr. Williams has been known to forget sometimes. I have the email exchanges where Kim did offer to do it, where he offered to assist with the 501c3 and all that and was told to f* off by Mr. Williams and crew. There is quite an exchange. Mr. Williams refused assistance and refused to do what was required of him. Mr. Williams has admitted in writing there was no vote, making the majority of votes in that election invalid. BTW the voter list was given USAT by candidate Mark Williams. Ask Mr. Sol, he has even more documents from Mr. Williams trying to cut him and Mr. Chambliss out of the organization.  BTW where is the $5600 that was in the NASTO treasury?




> So what is the point, that no matter what USAT did, it would have been wrong?


No the point is that group of people currently sitting are incapable of following a bylaw as they don't know them and feel they are above them, as evidenced by their actions. They didn't even try to stay legal. I think the message to the membership is that these people need to go away where they can do no more damage.






> Then perhaps you should go complain to the USOC about that.


 I would venture a guess you know it was all part of the Section 10 exhibits. I did love the Kim Sol deposition the best, no need for me to re-word when like minded person who writes so beautifully already had. I believe this is where the Hearing Panel decided that the USAT BOD was out of compliance in competence and managerial abilities.






> That might all be true. However, I think you are missing the point, which is the membership doesn't want to hear about all the ways that USAT has screwed up anymore. they know already, and they know that the USOC knows. What they want is for things to get better. And in my opinion, I think that we will accomplish that  much quicker by listening to the USOC and complying with their wishes, which includes the hiring of an interim CEO. I do not think that the USOC believes that Mr. Parthen is the long term solution. Do you?


 On one thing we agree, Mr. Parthen is short term, in spite of his desire to be long term. Many people don't care if USAT gets better,t hey have had a enough. Those who look for improvement have a severe mistrust of USAT and Mr. Parthen and the USOC who allowed all this to spiral out of control. in that the USAT is not making even the simpliest of actions to mitigate issues - for example, posting the minutes of meetings held by the BOD, as required by the bylaws, no annual meeting, no announcement of the 4th qtr meeting and then all those revelations in the last few weeks like finding out the BOD knew about the allegations against David and took no action while taking it very seriously, or that they knew the membership numbers were faked. Post the minutes, admit the actions, move forward. Members don't trust anyone at this point.


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2012)

RSweet said:


> BTW where is the $5600 that was in the NASTO treasury?



Don't know. Don't care.




RSweet said:


> I did love the Kim Sol deposition the best, no need for me to re-word when like minded person who writes so beautifully already had.



It wasn't a deposition, but I and others agree that you and Kim are like minded.



RSweet said:


> *Many people don't care if USAT gets better*,t hey have had a enough. Those who look for improvement have a severe mistrust of USAT and Mr. Parthen and the USOC who allowed all this to spiral out of control. in that the USAT is not making even the simpliest of actions to mitigate issues - for example, posting the minutes of meetings held by the BOD, as required by the bylaws, no annual meeting, no announcement of the 4th qtr meeting and then all those revelations in the last few weeks like finding out the BOD knew about the allegations against David and took no action while taking it very seriously, or that they knew the membership numbers were faked. Post the minutes, admit the actions, move forward. *Members don't trust anyone at this point.*


. 
Wow, what a sad place to be. I must hang out with a different crowd than you because that is not the sense I get. People do care. People do want things to get better. They want to believe. They are tired of AAU and other organizations and the issues which arise from being a part of those other organizations. The USTU is their roots, that is where they grew up. That is the organization that gave them a lot of the good things in their lives, they anxiously await its return, and are ready and willing to help make it so, ready and willing to help make amends. There is an army amassing in the tall grass, patiently waiting for the right time and the right conditions to spring into action.

But you are consistent, which is a good thing.


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## terryl965 (Jan 17, 2012)

I would love to go back to USAT or USTU or whatever name they may call it. I first want an equal and fair playing field for all mebers, second I would like toknow that we can have access to books, paperwork and fair elections. My biggest concern would be if paperwork that got lost or so they say and those people that it effected would be reinstated by the new org back to where they was before the break up. I know Puunui and Rhonda have there differences and so do so many but I would love to see people putting a side those prity things and work for the betterment of TKD in America..


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## puunui (Jan 17, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> I would love to go back to USAT or USTU or whatever name they may call it. I first want an equal and fair playing field for all mebers, second I would like toknow that we can have access to books, paperwork and fair elections.



If that happened, would you come back? 




terryl965 said:


> My biggest concern would be if paperwork that got lost or so they say and those people that it effected would be reinstated by the new org back to where they was before the break up.




What do you mean paperwork that got lost? What paperwork?


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## Gorilla (Jan 17, 2012)

I just got back from OTC.  We need to put aside old rivaries.  The current CEO is not the answer to much baggage with HP.  He starts to stammer when ever someone brings up getting Herb out of the org.  The old USTU is not the answer.  TKD leadership needs to put aside selfish motives and put together an NGB that operates for the sport and the athletes.  The current group had it's chance get out.  You have done enough damage.  Maybe the USTU was a good org at one time but in the end it became corrupt and killed itself.  I have heard some good ideas about how the organization can run but I am afraid that selfish interests will not allow the to happen.


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## RSweet (Jan 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I just got back from OTC.  We need to put aside old rivaries.  The current CEO is not the answer to much baggage with HP.  He starts to stammer when ever someone brings up getting Herb out of the org.  The old USTU is not the answer.  TKD leadership needs to put aside selfish motives and put together an NGB that operates for the sport and the athletes.  The current group had it's chance get out.  You have done enough damage.  Maybe the USTU was a good org at one time but in the end it became corrupt and killed itself.  I have heard some good ideas about how the organization can run but I am afraid that selfish interests will not allow the to happen.


 That about sums it up.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I just got back from OTC.  We need to put aside old rivaries.  The current CEO is not the answer to much baggage with HP.  He starts to stammer when ever someone brings up getting Herb out of the org.  The old USTU is not the answer.  TKD leadership needs to put aside selfish motives and put together an NGB that operates for the sport and the athletes.  The current group had it's chance get out.  You have done enough damage.  Maybe the USTU was a good org at one time but in the end it became corrupt and killed itself.  I have heard some good ideas about how the organization can run but I am afraid that selfish interests will not allow the to happen.




Let's assume that you are correct. What is your suggestion or solution to solve the problem?


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

RSweet said:


> That about sums it up.



Do you accept any responsibility for the current situation at USAT? If so, in what way? If not, why not?


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## Gorilla (Jan 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> Let's assume that you are correct. What is your suggestion or solution to solve the problem?



I have expressed my solutions to people that I trust.  It would be a volunteer org that gave back 90 percent of what it makes to the athletes, coaches and referees. All the current orgs could play a significant role.  Beyond that I am not willing to share.  I don't think that the current leadership in any of our orgs would be able to put aside old rivalries and self interest to make it work.  If done right you could raise up to 3 mil per year if leadership was willing to cooperate.  It would require stringent auditing and strong accountability.

The best org would be able to draw the best/most athletes.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I have expressed my solutions to people that I trust.



Who are they? I ask because if it is someone I know, then I can go ask them myself, if we haven't already spoken about it.




Gorilla said:


> It would be a volunteer org that gave back 90 percent of what it makes to the athletes, coaches and referees.



What do you mean "90 percent of what it makes"? Gross revenue? Net revenue after expenses? If it is gross revenue, then I think that is unrealistic. If it is net revenue, then I think that number might already be met, even by USAT.


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## Gorilla (Jan 18, 2012)

Net rev with very little exp.  This organization has an operating exp ratio that is off the chart.  It may hit 90 percent now only because the net number is so bad.  As far as my putting the names of who I spoke with on the net.  I am not willing to do that.

Remember I am talking about a volunteer org with very small paid staff.


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Net rev with very little exp.  This organization has an operating exp ratio that is off the chart.  It may hit 90 percent now only because the net number is so bad.  As far as my putting the names of who I spoke with on the net.  I am not willing to do that. Remember I am talking about a volunteer org with very small paid staff.



Certainly at the current size of USAT, staff size can be reduced. For example, do we really need a full time person to write press releases? I would be willing to do that for free. Or we could assign that to the public relations or publication committee, composed of volunteers, like we had under USTU. 

But there are other expenses besides staff size. The biggest expenses seem to be related to tournaments. It costs money to run a tournament. I think the main reason why USAT has been showing negative returns on events is because no one is attending the regionals. I think it costs about $100K to run a national level event, flying people in, putting them up, paying for referee stipends, etc. If we eliminated regionals, that would be a $200k savings right there. We shouldn't be in the qualifier business, we should be in the national and international events business. We should focus our attention on those events and make those solid, which will do much to improve goodwill among the membership.


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## Gorilla (Jan 18, 2012)

Agreed other areas we could cut also but I have spoken to much already.  We are close to the same page.  We need to get our athletes fighting internationally and it can be done with a transparent decentralized organization. We need to find ways to funnel money to athletes, refs and coaches.  We need to stop funding a top heavy NGB


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## puunui (Jan 18, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> We need to get our athletes fighting internationally and it can be done with a transparent decentralized organization. We need to find ways to funnel money to athletes, refs and coaches.



There is a plan for that....  

For example, we are probably the only WTF Member National Association that requires its IRs to self fund trips to WTF International Events for which they are appointed to officiate. We need to fix that. If someone from USA is appointed to referee at World Championships or the Olympics, they shouldn't have to pay for the airfare out of their own pocket. Things like that.


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## RSweet (Jan 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> Do you accept any responsibility for the current situation at USAT? If so, in what way? If not, why not?



And just what have you done for the current situation? What contributions have you made? What have you done or not done? why and why not?


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## Master Dan (Jan 19, 2012)

*By Gorilla
*I just got back from OTC.  We need to put aside old rivaries.  The current CEO is not the answer to much baggage with HP.  He starts to stammer when ever someone brings up getting Herb out of the org.  The old USTU is not the answer.  TKD leadership needs to put aside selfish motives and put together an NGB that operates for the sport and the athletes.  The current group had it's chance get out.  You have done enough damage.  Maybe the USTU was a good org at one time but in the end it became corrupt and killed itself.  I have heard some good ideas about how the organization can run but I am afraid that selfish interests will not allow the to happen.
*By RSweet*
That about sums it up.

I agree and I would say the previous comment that there are mass numbers just waiting in the grass to return to a reincarnation of the USTU may not be as large as hoped for because of the USTU's  past abuses of money and people. I have had private converstations with senior masters who still have a bitter taste in thier mouth and advise caution or even abstain from participating in any future NGB because they feel politics and cronism will just take advantage of personal time and money.  However the comment that we should all just go along with what ever the USOC wants because they are going to make everything ok makes one ponder. Seems all of this is so far removed from what should be the priority ( the athletes) Is no one shocked or concerned about the World Juniors being held in Egypt?? Adults want to put themselves at risk fine but sending minors given the current stability of the Middle East are none of you concerned?


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## terryl965 (Jan 19, 2012)

puunui said:


> If that happened, would you come back?
> 
> I have always been a member because I have certain athletes that competes at the US Open. But I would be more so bringing everybody and supporting JO and National along with state.
> 
> ...



OH come on certain people ref credintials, because the new relm did not like them. Saying they where never member or school was never a member. Hell they even tried to tell me I was not certified but yet had all my paperwork from the old USTU. I remember going to Atlanta for Jo and working the holding area and have all my mebership cards but yet it took four years for them to find everything only by me pushing the buttons. Puunui remember some of us have been around for sometime and have been **** on badly by the USAT that we just will not ever forgive them for there ways of weeding peopleout. Hell I remember when David sat in colorado and said why are we having Open tryouts for JR team when they sat it up that way. he and the majority of them was totally wrong and right now I have little faith that the USAT is going to change. I hope I am wrong but it looks like a smoke and mirror trick to me.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

RSweet said:


> And just what have you done for the current situation? What contributions have you made? What have you done or not done? why and why not?



Recriminatory statements don't really answer the question. But that's ok. As for what i have done and what I am doing, I have been patiently waiting and preparing. We all have.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> I agree and I would say the previous comment that there are mass numbers just waiting in the grass to return to a reincarnation of the USTU may not be as large as hoped for because of the USTU's  past abuses of money and people. I have had private converstations with senior masters who still have a bitter taste in thier mouth and advise caution or even abstain from participating in any future NGB because they feel politics and cronism will just take advantage of personal time and money.



If they feel that way, then in my opinion, it is probably better if they did not participate. We do not want people who bring with them a bitter taste in their mouth. But there are a lot of other people who are waiting for change and want to join in. Perhaps not you or chuck, but there are others in alaska, for example. 




Master Dan said:


> However the comment that we should all just go along with what ever the USOC wants because they are going to make everything ok makes one ponder. Seems all of this is so far removed from what should be the priority ( the athletes)



No it is not far removed from athletes as a priority.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> OH come on certain people ref credintials, because the new relm did not like them.Saying they where never member or school was never a member.



I don't know what you are talking about.




terryl965 said:


> Hell they even tried to tell me I was not certified but yet had all my paperwork from the old USTU. I remember going to Atlanta for Jo and working the holding area and have all my mebership cards but yet it took four years for them to find everything only by me pushing the buttons.



If you have all your paperwork, then why would it be a problem. Can't speak for the present ref chair, but for the prior ones, you could have approached them politely and the most probably would have worked it out for you. 




terryl965 said:


> Puunui remember some of us have been around for sometime and have been **** on badly by the USAT that we just will not ever forgive them for there ways of weeding peopleout.



hang around for a little longer and hopefully you will see that they won't be there for much longer. 




terryl965 said:


> Hell I remember when David sat in colorado and said why are we having Open tryouts for JR team when they sat it up that way. he and the majority of them was totally wrong and right now I have little faith that the USAT is going to change. I hope I am wrong but it looks like a smoke and mirror trick to me.



I am sorry that you feel that way. I don't feel the same way that you do, and I do not believe the USOC feels that way either.


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## terryl965 (Jan 19, 2012)

Puunui you ask for me to hang in a little longer and I will of course, you say the USOC is going to do something god only knowa how I want to be proven wrong and they do. I just need to see progress moving forward and thought it was with true and the section 10 hearing but still the USAT makes things hard for the members. I am so waiting for the day when I can say see everyone I was wrong the USOC finally did something right and made it better for the athletes and coaches and refs.. They are the ones that they need to have an org.. Like I said puunui I really hope you are right.


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## puunui (Jan 19, 2012)

Hang in there. It's coming soon, perhaps real soon. One of the problems is that you are hearing or listening to those voices that only know how to create chaos and disorder. Right now, we need to be calm and let the process run its course. In other words, join us and wait silently in the tall grass.


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## Gorilla (Jan 20, 2012)

Who will be with us in the tall grass? You seem to put allot of trust in the USOC.  Why?

I am not trying to be antagonistic.  This is a legit question for puuni.  Thanks


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## puunui (Jan 21, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Who will be with us in the tall grass?



They know who they are. That's the important thing.




Gorilla said:


> You seem to put allot of trust in the USOC.  Why?



Because Scott Blackmun is not Jim Scherr.


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## Gorilla (Jan 23, 2012)

Blackmun was a popular appointment among the CEO's of many of the NGB's but what has really changed at the USOC.  HP seems to still have a lot Of pull with the appointment of EP.  It would appear that they are going to let the current bunch run the remediation plan of the USAT.  I hope your confidence is well founded but at this point I don't see it.  The current CEO is completely tied into HP nothing will ever work at the USAT as long as HP is pulling the strings and it appears to be with the backing of the USOC.  I am skeptical but I am of open mind please help me to understand how things are going to get better if the current people are left in place.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Blackmun was a popular appointment among the CEO's of many of the NGB's but what has really changed at the USOC.  HP seems to still have a lot Of pull with the appointment of EP.  It would appear that they are going to let the current bunch run the remediation plan of the USAT.  I hope your confidence is well founded but at this point I don't see it.  The current CEO is completely tied into HP nothing will ever work at the USAT as long as HP is pulling the strings and it appears to be with the backing of the USOC.  I am skeptical but I am of open mind please help me to understand how things are going to get better if the current people are left in place.



The USOC understands everything. Already people are positioning themselves for a new administration, thinking that we have short memories. But our true friends are the ones who stand by you during the darkest hour, not when the the sun is about to rise or has risen.


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## andyjeffries (Jan 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> The USOC understands everything. Already people are positioning themselves for a new administration, thinking that we have short memories. But our true friends are the ones who stand by you during the darkest hour, not when the the sun is about to rise or has risen.



I'm not even an American and even I'm excited and hopeful at the prospect of you guys turning your NGB around!

Fingers crossed for all my American WTF/Kukkiwon friends.


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## Gorilla (Jan 23, 2012)

I hope you guys in the tall grass will do the right thing when you get your chance because Sport Tkd has been a little short of people doing the right thing over the last few years.  Those of us on the outside in the USAT have felt the sting of bad process.  I am hopefull that the new leadership of Sport TKD has learned a few things from the past and they are not repeated.  I am skeptical but hopefull for a new future at the NGB level.  It looks like some of the new proposals have the AAU on the board that is a step in the right direction.  We need to bring in all the TKD groups ATU etc.... Membership could increase to 30,000 if we all worked together.  Maybe more than 30,000 let's make this an all inclusive NGB.  Imagine what we could do for the athletes if we worked together in TKD.

I like the idea of an executive director who is our face to the international community but is not involved in day to day operations.  Should be a volunteer position thou with reasonable expenses paid.  Master YIC would be a great candidate.


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## RSweet (Jan 23, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I hope you guys in the tall grass will do the right thing when you get your chance because Sport Tkd has been a little short of people doing the right thing over the last few years.  Those of us on the outside in the USAT have felt the sting of bad process.  I am hopefull that the new leadership of Sport TKD has learned a few things from the past and they are not repeated.  I am skeptical but hopefull for a new future at the NGB level.  It looks like some of the new proposals have the AAU on the board that is a step in the right direction.  We need to bring in all the TKD groups ATU etc.... Membership could increase to 30,000 if we all worked together.  Maybe more than 30,000 let's make this an all inclusive NGB.  Imagine what we could do for the athletes if we worked together in TKD.
> 
> I like the idea of an executive director who is our face to the international community but is not involved in day to day operations.  Should be a volunteer position thou with reasonable expenses paid.  Master YIC would be a great candidate.



The tall grass appears to be getting pretty full. Whenever there is a perceived weakness in the NGB, as happened in 2004, a lot of different groups attempt to position themselves to take over. I have heard already that the MAC has already gone to the USOC to unofficial petition taking over from the current guys, as well as a lot of other, no doubt, including Mr. Perez who has inserted himself into every aspect of this process when as even the committee noted, he didn't file a Section 10. 

In May 2003 at the hearing with the USOC Membership & Credentials Committee, AAu's own Mike Friello told me personally at breakfast that he had a 501c3 ready to move and take over when USOC decertified Sang Lee. 

In 2003 and 2004, the Ohio contingent did the same and pretty much took over the remediation process. They were thrilled until the Management and Governance Committee appointed by the USOC did not include their names. They sued again and this is how the Martial Arts Commission was born. When JP Chai lost the 2008 election to the Affiliated Director position to Rex Hatfield, again he threatened to sue and thus the compromise that put him in the seat for 2009 and 2010. Rex Hatfield was to be the sole Director for 2011 and 2012. You will note how that came out.

Don't doubt that the tall grass is full of predators: hopefully however the USOC decides to remediate it will be someone (s) who is qualified and can pull the org out of the morass. And from what I hear about the extreme negative state of the finances, the USOC had better be prepared to hand over some cash.

I was told that Eric Parthen testified at the Section 10 hearing about all the plans he has to fix things. I am also told that one of the panel members asked him how he was going to do any of it when they have no money.

Personally I am concerned over the fact that of those submitting these remediation plans, no one came out and asked the membership what they thought. I am concerned that other than maybe one or two (AAC reps) involved actually in preparing these plans represent the membership itself by having been elected. One lesson that should have been learned over the years is that if the membership doesn't buy in, there's no point in heading down that road.


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## miguksaram (Jan 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I'm not even an American and even I'm excited and hopeful at the prospect of you guys turning your NGB around!
> 
> Fingers crossed for all my American WTF/Kukkiwon friends.


It's ok..you are an honorary American.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

RSweet said:


> Personally I am concerned over the fact that of those submitting these remediation plans, no one came out and asked the membership what they thought. I am concerned that other than maybe one or two (AAC reps) involved actually in preparing these plans represent the membership itself by having been elected. One lesson that should have been learned over the years is that if the membership doesn't buy in, there's no point in heading down that road.




MAC and AAU's actions would only be a factor in a decertification scenario. We aren't in decertification mode, but rather probation mode. As for not asking the membership, that is incorrect. A lot of people have been asking the membership about their feelings about USAT, USTU, the past, present and future of taekwondo. People are smart and they know who did what, how we got here, and most importantly, what needs to be done to turn this thing around.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

andyjeffries said:


> I'm not even an American and even I'm excited and hopeful at the prospect of you guys turning your NGB around!
> 
> Fingers crossed for all my American WTF/Kukkiwon friends.



Thanks for the sentiment. People are getting excited and hopeful. I think that is a good thing. People haven't had much to be hopeful about at USAT for a long time. People are talking to each other, reconnecting, getting ready. I am sure there will be bumps along the road, and I am sure there are people out there just waiting to point those things out, but at least we are moving away from the old, and towards something new. Mistakes will be made to be sure, but hopefully that can be minimized by selecting the right people for the right jobs, at the right time.


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## RSweet (Jan 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> MAC and AAU's actions would only be a factor in a decertification scenario. We aren't in decertification mode, but rather probation mode. As for not asking the membership, that is incorrect. A lot of people have been asking the membership about their feelings about USAT, USTU, the past, present and future of taekwondo. People are smart and they know who did what, how we got here, and most importantly, what needs to be done to turn this thing around.



MAC and AAU actions only show some of the predators in that tall grass for the current remediation.

What people have been asking? and who have they asked? I have yet to see a public request from anyone. So one would assume only those who are specifically asked by unknown persons opinions count? and that is before this remediation starts. Sounds like old boss, new boss, same boss.

Terry? Gorilla? Have either of you specifically been asked your opinions on the remediation and how to fix USAT? or where it should go? Anyone else?


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

Just because you are out of the loop doesn't mean that there is no loop. May I suggest that you use the present time to engage in introspection and reflection, rather than accusation. Accusation is or was, so ten years ago. People are different now and they want different things. They do not want a constant wet blanket on their childrens' dreams. They want hope. They want things to improve and they are willing to do their part to make that happen.


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## RSweet (Jan 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> Just because you are out of the loop doesn't mean that there is no loop. May I suggest that you use the present time to engage in introspection and reflection, rather than accusation. Accusation is or was, so ten years ago. People are different now and they want different things. They do not want a constant wet blanket on their childrens' dreams. They want hope. They want things to improve and they are willing to do their part to make that happen.



What makes you think I am out of the loop? I would suggest that you engage in introspection and reflection regarding the rights of the members. To date, USAT has not even acknowledged there was a Section 10 hearing, let alone polled members for opinions. The ruling from the USOC leaves plenty of room for interpretation. The actions of the USAT and the CEO since then do not demonstrate any attempt to remedy those areas where the USOC found the USAT out of compliance, such as communication and transparency. I think that those who view the upcoming events skeptically are being realistic. So you are "so ten years ago." People do not want rosey promises, they want actions. They don't want to hear what is going to be done, they want the changes made. They want to see a fair shake for their kids and they want an even playing field and they want it now.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

People don't really want to hear that sort of thing anymore. The days of piling on and the mob mentality from ten years ago is past. USAT pretty much sobered that right up.


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## RSweet (Jan 23, 2012)

puunui said:


> People don't really want to hear that sort of thing anymore. The days of piling on and the mob mentality from ten years ago is past. USAT pretty much sobered that right up.


  Really? I think people want transparency and responsible leadership. They appreciate knowing what is really happening versus the pie in the sky letters and notes.  Nice thing about this country, no one forces anyone to read anything they don't want to unless you are in school.


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## puunui (Jan 23, 2012)

RSweet said:


> Really? I think people want transparency and responsible leadership. They appreciate knowing what is really happening versus the pie in the sky letters and notes.  Nice thing about this country, no one forces anyone to read anything they don't want to unless you are in school.



Ok, then keep doing what you gotta do then.


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## Gorilla (Jan 23, 2012)

I have given my opinion.  That opinion has been passed on.  I don't think anyone wants a proposal that has a small volunteer NGB that works with multiple orgs on a contract basis. I want a small NGB that gets maximum memebership by working with the varrious orgs who compete for athletes.

The USAT does not want to hear about anything that does not involve HP.


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## troubleenuf (Jan 24, 2012)

I want it!  I also think its the people who have been "hiding" in the grass that are part of the problem.  Instead its people like Rhonda who have put themselves out in front who have enacted the change that is coming.  You might not like all that she does but lets face it... She is one of the reasons all this has come about.



RSweet said:


> Really? I think people want transparency and responsible leadership. They appreciate knowing what is really happening versus the pie in the sky letters and notes.  Nice thing about this country, no one forces anyone to read anything they don't want to unless you are in school.


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## Gorilla (Jan 24, 2012)

Yep...toubleenuf is right Rsweet has lead the charge.  I am sure she has made some enemies along the way but it is time to put aside old rivalries and move forward.  It seems we have some tension between rsweet and puunui. Let's put the bad blood of the USTU days behind us and move forward.  We have to come together to get this behind us but we need new leadership that will put the sport ahead of their own personal ambition and agendas.


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## puunui (Jan 24, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> Instead its people like Rhonda who have put  themselves out in front who have enacted the change that is coming.  You  might not like all that she does but lets face it... She is one of the  reasons all this has come about.



She was on the USAT Board of Directors from 2005-2010, serving as Chair from 2007-2009. In addition, she was on the committee that vetted David Askinas and recommended his hire. I agree that she is one of the reasons all this has come about.


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## puunui (Jan 24, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Let's put the bad blood of the USTU days behind us and move forward.  We have to come together to get this behind us but we need new leadership that will put the sport ahead of their own personal ambition and agendas.



Been there, done that. The result was USAT.


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## RSweet (Jan 24, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Yep...toubleenuf is right Rsweet has lead the charge.  I am sure she has made some enemies along the way but it is time to put aside old rivalries and move forward.  It seems we have some tension between rsweet and puunui. Let's put the bad blood of the USTU days behind us and move forward.  We have to come together to get this behind us but we need new leadership that will put the sport ahead of their own personal ambition and agendas.



I don't know how you can think there is tension between puunui and I. At one time we were best of buddies, even used to chat on the phone and IM on AOL. He gave me valuable advice when I began my website and was my #1 contributor of USTU documents, like Executive Committee minutes and things. In fact he thought so highly of me that he signed off and sent in my 4th dan to the KKW. I appreciated his time, efforts and energy more than you know.

I totally agree that there is a need for new leadership, although there are a lot of people who have been underutilized in the past and could still make major contributions in the future. The USOC needs to be careful how the remediation is implemented and who it trusts to put in charge. While the USOC thought very highly of the mediator, the mediation failed partly because the mediator was not prepared for the extreme hostility between the parties and let's face it, few deal well with Herb Perez. I again go back to my comments that whatever the remediation is to be, there has to be buy-in from the membership or any plan is doomed to failure. On another thread discussion has turned to the need for a larger BOD. The reasons suggested basically come down to such a small BOD can be easily controlled by a smaller minority bent on their own agendas as has been the case with the USAT,a long with the outside controls. In 2010, three of the ten BOD members resigned over the actions of that BOD and the desire to not have their names associated with the actions of that BOD and its CEO. 

When the remediation plan is unveiled and the plans for the elections set, then it is imperative that all who want the organization to move forward ensure that there are not only quality candidates for the positions and that they are researched carefully, but that whomever is deemed a voting category actually vote. Kevin Padilla won by 1 vote. Out of 1000 coaches, approximately 100 or 10% of the coaches voted and Kevin Padilla got it by 1 vote. This shows how important every vote is, whether a USAT election or a US Presidential election. It's work together or fail.


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## puunui (Jan 24, 2012)

RSweet said:


> I don't know how you can think there is tension between puunui and I. At one time we were best of buddies, even used to chat on the phone and IM on AOL. He gave me valuable advice when I began my website and was my #1 contributor of USTU documents, like Executive Committee minutes and things. In fact he thought so highly of me that he signed off and sent in my 4th dan to the KKW. I appreciated his time, efforts and energy more than you know.



I don't know if I would go as far to say we were "best of buddies". But yes, I did help you, because that is what my senior wanted. So I listened. Probably the person who helped you the most in your taekwondo career was President Sang Lee. In fact, there is a long list of people who have first hand, personal knowledge about how you show your appreciation.


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## terryl965 (Jan 25, 2012)

I have called USAT several times to inquire about there current stituation and was told it was really noneof my business. That is one of the reason I get pissed at them. Other times they just say we are working on the problems but then you never hear anything again, the only time I was called back was by membership because something went wrong with there system and I could not register for an event. Other wise they have never ever returned any of my phone calls, it has been me calling them over and over again.

I do agree we need to be working together to make things change but not enough people are kept up to date on what is going on. I know it would be nice to actually know how and why things are being done and being a member and school owner they should tell me something but they don't.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

puunui said:


> I don't know if I would go as far to say we were "best of buddies". But yes, I did help you, because that is what my senior wanted. So I listened. Probably the person who helped you the most in your taekwondo career was President Sang Lee. In fact, there is a long list of people who have first hand, personal knowledge about how you show your appreciation.



I take that back. President Lee wasn't the person who helped you the most in your taekwondo career; I think that was Herb Perez, for getting you on the USAT Board of Directors and, along with David Askinas, made you Chair. But add those two to the long list of people who have first hand, personal knowledge of how appreciative you are when people help you.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> I have called USAT several times to inquire about there current stituation and was told it was really noneof my business. That is one of the reason I get pissed at them. Other times they just say we are working on the problems but then you never hear anything again, the only time I was called back was by membership because something went wrong with there system and I could not register for an event. Other wise they have never ever returned any of my phone calls, it has been me calling them over and over again.
> 
> I do agree we need to be working together to make things change but not enough people are kept up to date on what is going on. I know it would be nice to actually know how and why things are being done and being a member and school owner they should tell me something but they don't.



This week or next at the latest, we should have a better picture of what will happen. We are currently in the "remedy" phase of the Section 10 complaints, and the USOC Hearing Panel should be telling us what the remedy is by then. In the meantime, I would say any phone calls to USAT would be a waste of time. They obviously won't tell you what is going on with respect to the hearing panel stuff. If they wanted you to know that, they would have posted the decision. The fact that they didn't, gives more than enough information. Instead of trying to pile on and dump on the current administration, I would focus my attention on the future and figure out what sort of things you would like to see happen at USAT under a new administration and most importantly, what your level of participation will be.


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## d1jinx (Jan 25, 2012)

RSweet said:


> When the remediation plan is unveiled and the plans for the elections set, then it is imperative that all who want the organization to move forward ensure that there are not only quality candidates for the positions and that they are researched carefully, but that whomever is deemed a voting category actually vote. Kevin Padilla won by 1 vote. Out of 1000 coaches, approximately 100 or 10% of the coaches voted and Kevin Padilla got it by 1 vote. This shows how important every vote is, whether a USAT election or a US Presidential election. It's work together or fail.



not to beat a dead horse, but I did the level 1 course in 2004 or 5 (the first time, whenever it was started) when Herb taught it and "Q" coaches didnt count anymore and I have my voting "affiliation" set as coach, and never once did I recieve any information on voting, nor have i ever recieved ANYTHING about voting for anything. Since the USAT began it was very apparent that certain people were included while the rest were excluded. 

but then again, i am irrelevent.

I STILL WANT MY $500 SHIRT I NEVER GOT HERB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> not to beat a dead horse, but I did the level 1 course in 2004 or 5 (the first time, whenever it was started) when Herb taught it and "Q" coaches didnt count anymore and I have my voting "affiliation" set as coach, and never once did I recieve any information on voting, nor have i ever recieved ANYTHING about voting for anything. Since the USAT began it was very apparent that certain people were included while the rest were excluded.




Try and read the bylaws. There are very specific requirements that must be met before one can have a vote. I think you need to take that coach course every year in order to get a vote. For referees, you have to have officiated at a USAT event to get a vote. I myself do not have a vote, no matter what I register for, because I am a life member, and at some point the bylaws were changed to take away voting rights for life members. I believe these things were done to shrink the voting pool for control purposes (less voters means easier chance to win elections) and also to further exclude korean born members, who make up the bulk of the USTU/USAT life membership.


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## RSweet (Jan 25, 2012)

puunui said:


> Try and read the bylaws. There are very specific requirements that must be met before one can have a vote. I think you need to take that coach course every year in order to get a vote. For referees, you have to have officiated at a USAT event to get a vote. I myself do not have a vote, no matter what I register for, because I am a life member, and at some point the bylaws were changed to take away voting rights for life members. I believe these things were done to shrink the voting pool for control purposes (less voters means easier chance to win elections) and also to further exclude korean born members, who make up the bulk of the USTU/USAT life membership.



Speaking of beating dead horses.This has been discussed and debunked ad nauseum. Life members as a category do not have a vote. However, Life members who designate Coach or referee for example, do have a vote as a coach or a referee. It is possible to be a member of more than one membership category.

Many Life members have votes and have used them in the categories that have someone to vote for (example: Coaches vote for Coaches, Referees for Referees, Athletes for Athletes) Just ask John Holloway who is and has been a life member and has voted in the elections.

Section 5.2. Voting Members.
Individuals belonging to the following membership categories shall be entitled to vote in an
election for directors of the Board: Athlete members, Coach members and Referee members.
Organizations belonging to the following membership categories shall be entitled to vote in an
election for directors of the Board: Club members, State Organization members and Affiliated
Organization members. No other voting privileges are conferred upon these members.
*An individual may belong to more than one (1) of the above mentioned membership categories.
However, an individual is only eligible to vote in one (1) membership category. Any individual
who is a member of more than one (1) membership category shall designate the membership
category in which he or she shall vote.* An individual shall be a citizen of the United States and
at least eighteen (18) years of age in order to be eligible to vote in an election. Notwithstanding
these restrictions on voting, membership in USAT is open to individuals who are less than
eighteen (18) years of age and to individuals who are not citizens of the United States. An
individual shall be a member of USAT sixty (60) days prior to the date of the election (record
date) in order to be eligible to vote in an election.
Individuals and organizations belonging to the following membership categories have no voting
privileges: Supporting members, Life members and Contributing Organization members.


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## RSweet (Jan 25, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> not to beat a dead horse, but I did the level 1 course in 2004 or 5 (the first time, whenever it was started) when Herb taught it and "Q" coaches didnt count anymore and I have my voting "affiliation" set as coach, and never once did I recieve any information on voting, nor have i ever recieved ANYTHING about voting for anything. Since the USAT began it was very apparent that certain people were included while the rest were excluded.
> 
> but then again, i am irrelevent.
> 
> I STILL WANT MY $500 SHIRT I NEVER GOT HERB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Gold92@aol.com  call (650) 286-9116 for more information  http://www.goldmedalcenter.com/foster-city  As a candidate for USAT Director, he may bend over backwards for someone who can vote


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## RSweet (Jan 25, 2012)

puunui said:


> I take that back. President Lee wasn't the person who helped you the most in your taekwondo career; I think that was Herb Perez, for getting you on the USAT Board of Directors and, along with David Askinas, made you Chair. But add those two to the long list of people who have first hand, personal knowledge of how appreciative you are when people help you.



No one can replace you in my affections. 

You must have forgotten, Herb threatened to sue me if I ran for chair. David didn't make me chair either, the choice was Mark Biviano in his first day as a BOD member or me. 

And I know there is an extremely long list of people that somehow were dropped from your mailing list after disagreeing with you or arguing with you or posting on another board. I am sure that was totally accidental and the fault of the software.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

RSweet said:


> And I know there is an extremely long list of people that somehow were dropped from your mailing list after disagreeing with you or arguing with you or posting on another board. I am sure that was totally accidental and the fault of the software.



That mailing list was very useful in predicting people who were prone to negative behavior. The people who were red flagged through that mailing list invariably became people that my group did not wish to associate with. I think it was Jay, maybe John, who conceded that the list was incredibly accurate in that regard. I don't mind painting a target on my back, because it served a very important purpose. And those who are able to maintain their discipline, get rewarded with high quality, high level accurate information. And it is not the disagreeing or the arguing, but the manner in which is done. People disagree or argue with me all the time; that isn't the deciding factor, something more important is. As for posting on another specific board, where are all those posters now, other than lurking, like you do, using an alternative email address?


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## RSweet (Jan 25, 2012)

puunui said:


> That mailing list was very useful in predicting people who were prone to negative behavior. The people who were red flagged through that mailing list invariably became people that my group did not wish to associate with. I think it was Jay, maybe John, who conceded that the list was incredibly accurate in that regard. I don't mind painting a target on my back, because it served a very important purpose. And those who are able to maintain their discipline, get rewarded with high quality, high level accurate information. And it is not the disagreeing or the arguing, but the manner in which is done. People disagree or argue with me all the time; that isn't the deciding factor, something more important is. As for posting on another specific board, where are all those posters now, other than lurking, like you do, using an alternative email address?



I really don't think John or Jay would consider people like Randy Waitman and Kim Sol as undesirable. I don't lurk and no alternate email addresses, sorry you have me confused with someone else, maybe that person in the mirror. I also make all my posts available to anyone who wants to read them.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

RSweet said:


> Just ask John Holloway who is and has been a life member and has voted in the elections.



I did mention it to him. This specific line in the bylaws seems pretty clear: Individuals and organizations belonging to the following membership categories have no voting privileges: Supporting members, Life members and Contributing Organization members.

I am a life member who designated myself as one of the categories, and I haven't gotten a ballot in years.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

RSweet said:


> I really don't think John or Jay would consider people like Randy Waitman and Kim Sol as undesirable. I don't lurk and no alternate email addresses, sorry you have me confused with someone else, maybe that person in the mirror. I also make all my posts available to anyone who wants to read them.



believe what you wish and keep doing what you are doing. it's a free country.


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## Gorilla (Jan 25, 2012)

Do we have any hope of people coming together it would seem to me that people have chosen sides and battle lines have been drawn.  Nothing will be accomplished in this type of situation.  Wow!!!!  How do we come together for the good of the sport.


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## puunui (Jan 25, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Do we have any hope of people coming together it would seem to me that people have chosen sides and battle lines have been drawn.  Nothing will be accomplished in this type of situation.  Wow!!!!  How do we come together for the good of the sport.



That is what she wants you to believe.


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## d1jinx (Jan 26, 2012)

RSweet said:


> Gold92@aol.com call (650) 286-9116 for more information http://www.goldmedalcenter.com/foster-city As a candidate for USAT Director, he may bend over backwards for someone who can vote



*WOT*. (waste of time)

I have called, even have emails saying it was "in the mail". then he told me he gave me more than 1 oppurtunity to pick it up at regionals and nationals so it was too late now.(they didnt have my size one time, the other time they ran out, one time they didnt have them yet)

it's ok. The fun is knowing that I got rippied off and told to take it. It was my privilage to become and maintain level 1 status... and shouldnt expect anything in return. regardless of what was promised. but hey, they gave us back $75....

I think this was like every other effort that USAT attempted to implement... pointless. well, maybe not pointless, it did generate revenue for 1 side at the expense for the other. And it only took them how long to follow up with the level2, level 3.....


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## d1jinx (Jan 26, 2012)

puunui said:


> Try and read the bylaws. There are very specific requirements that must be met before one can have a vote. I think you need to take that coach course every year in order to get a vote. For referees, you have to have officiated at a USAT event to get a vote. I myself do not have a vote, no matter what I register for, because I am a life member, and at some point the bylaws were changed to take away voting rights for life members. I believe these things were done to shrink the voting pool for control purposes (less voters means easier chance to win elections) and also to further exclude korean born members, who make up the bulk of the USTU/USAT life membership.



i did maintain my active coaching status and it didnt change until recently ( about a year or 2 ago) changed it to referee.  but that i can understand, cause i didnt ref an event 1 year.  but since 2005 was an active LVL1 coach and never once got any info about voting.

as for the lifetime membership.  it never appealed to me.  I couldnt and still dont see the benefit to it.  I mean i understand how it grandfathered longtime USTU members into it, but for anyone else it seemed pointless.


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## Gorilla (Jan 26, 2012)

RSweet has very little influence on what I think or believe.  I have spoken with a plethora of people over a pretty wide cross section of the TKD community(athletes,former officials of the USAT/USTU,current officials of TKD orgs,  Elite athletes, coaches at all levels).  Then I observe puunui and Rsweet bicker and it is not hard to come to the conclusion that at this time we do not have a leader or force in the TKD community that is willing to step forward and lead us out of this mess.


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## RSweet (Jan 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Do we have any hope of people coming together it would seem to me that people have chosen sides and battle lines have been drawn.  Nothing will be accomplished in this type of situation.  Wow!!!!  How do we come together for the good of the sport.



The difficulty at this moment is knowing how and where to come together. Until the Hearing Panel renders their remediation plan, no one can truly know how to form a battle plan. Step one was taken, TRUE and Bernard Robinson went through and exhausted internal remedies. They got a ruling that was against the USAT but until the USOC announces how far they are willing to go to assist TKD and how the Hearing Panel announces how the elections and oversight are going to happen, other than keeping abreast of the news, there is not much anyone can do. You can run out and recruit Independents, but what if the Hearing Panel decides to eliminate independents? Word out there is the USOC is fed up with USAT both pre and post the David Askinas era. They have neither the time, energy or money to put into the USAT. Word also is that USAT is at least $750K in the hole and is using this year's money to pay last year's bills. This leads me to the obvious conclusion that it will be necessary to utilize more volunteers to limp along. The USOC Auditor has already stated that he does not believe the budget passed by the BOD will work. Until the true extent of commitments made by USAT is exposed, no one really knows what they have to work with. Will USAT have to file for a bankruptcy reorganization? Will the USOC just say to hell with it all if the medal count from the Olympics is less than stellar? How many pending lawsuits are there? The list of questions goes on and on and I am not sure that any has those answers. Just starting out right this minute saying "lead me, trust me" is ludicrous. I doubt Eric Parthen even has all the answers at this moment. The only true answer I can give you is that there are a lot of really great people out there with experience and good ideas that are willing to step into the gaps and give it all a try. However, to start working on a long term answer without a real, honest knowledge of where USAT stands this moment, what's owed, what's available - you would only be bailing the titanic with a soup spoon. This will all hinge first on the USOC and their decisions, then transparency about the true condition of the organization (from people who still deny there is a problem) and then hardworking, experienced people to first think about the problems and then move forward with well considered answers and then they have to find the tools to make those answers happen. This is not going to be a 6 month process. The answers will not magically appear when the Hearing Panel renders their remediation plan. That will only be the beginning.  And while good people are doing all that, you will have those who have sat back and waited for this day in order to sweep in and take over, count on that one.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> RSweet has very little influence on what I think or believe.



That is quite interesting. 



Gorilla said:


> I have spoken with a plethora of people over a pretty wide cross section of the TKD community(athletes,former officials of the USAT/USTU,current officials of TKD orgs,  Elite athletes, coaches at all levels).  Then I observe puunui and Rsweet bicker and it is not hard to come to the conclusion that at this time we do not have a leader or force in the TKD community that is willing to step forward and lead us out of this mess.



I disagree that we are "bickering". I will say that there are leaders out there who can take us out of this situations, two specifically that fill different roles but work well together. But if you are looking for a situation where there is 100% agreement or 100% support or 100% anything, then I would say that is unrealistic and impractical and not how things work in the real world.


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## puunui (Jan 26, 2012)

RSweet said:


> And while good people are doing all that, you will have those who have sat back and waited for this day in order to sweep in and take over, count on that one.



I don't think those groups will be a concern. Like I said previously, that would only apply in a decertification scenario, which we are not in. And even if everything goes completely wrong and USAT does get decertified, the WTF has already indicated that they would appoint ATU to fill the gap, not AAU or MAC. USOC knows and understands this, and also knows and understands the pressures coming from MAC and to a lesser extent AAU. So they are trying to salvage USAT, if it is salvagable. Perhaps bankruptcy reorganization is a possibility and option, if things are so bad and the debt is insurmountable. But whatever the situation, it is always best to start with a plan, unlike what happened 2004. Back then, there was no plan, other than to eliminate and get rid of all Korean born members from the organization. Ironically, this time, the plan seems to be how to get rid of those who got rid of the Korean born members the last time around.


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## Gorilla (Jan 26, 2012)

In my private life I run a large organization and have been a member of multiple boards.  I agree that you will never have 100 percent agreement on anything.  I think that if we have a board and a leader who can bring all the orgs together you could generate 50,000 members for the NGB.  AAU and USAT are already at 30k.  I am happy to hear that you have two that you feel are ready.  We have participated in multiple ATU events and I have met some the leaders of that Org in California. Our original GM supports this group.

This will be an interesting weekend.  I don't think that the AAU wants to be the NGB they just want a meaningful seat at the table but are skeptical about how things happened the last time they had seat on the board.  I think a strong leader with integrity could get people to put those things behind them but it will be difficult task.

Puunui does anyone really want to bring all the groups together. ATU,MAC,AAU because this is what I would like to see. A NGB that is able to work with all TKD Orgs.  If we can do that the sky is the limit.


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## puunui (Jan 27, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> AAU and USAT are already at 30k.



Together maybe. But I don't think either approaches that number by themselves.




Gorilla said:


> Puunui does anyone really want to bring all the groups together. ATU,MAC,AAU because this is what I would like to see. A NGB that is able to work with all TKD Orgs.  If we can do that the sky is the limit.



Yes and no. Hard to explain at the moment, and yes we want to include those groups, but perhaps not in the way you are thinking about.


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## Gorilla (Jan 30, 2012)

Together correct...I am glad to hear that those groups will be included...I spoke with several people this weekend...most are very skeptical about EP...it is the conventional wisdom that he is connected to HP and that will never work...many have told him this... he will not pull away from Herb...if the USOC accepts the USAT plan we have very little chance for success.  
 Punnui if we had a strong org that worked will with all groups how many members could a NGB get?


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Together correct...I am glad to hear that those groups will be included...I spoke with several people this weekend...most are very skeptical about EP...it is the conventional wisdom that he is connected to HP and that will never work...many have told him this... he will not pull away from Herb...if the USOC accepts the USAT plan we have very little chance for success.
> Punnui if we had a strong org that worked will with all groups how many members could a NGB get?



Don't worry about EP. He is part of the past. No one thinks he is the future of usat, except maybe hp, who the USOC understands is the problem. I have been told by many who saw him for the first time at junior team trials and olympic trials that he is a carbon copy of david askinas and bob gambardella before him, that what we need is a taekwondo person in there, not a usat civil servant from another sport. Once the new board is elected, he is gone. 

Instead of looking at number of members, I would look to numbers at tournaments. I don't think 10,000 competitors at JOs is out of the question.


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## Gorilla (Jan 30, 2012)

I don't think the NGB should be running Nationals the affiliated orgs should.  I think that the NGB should be driving membership for the organization.  It would be required that the members of the affiliated must also be members of the NGB org...  You could raise millions with very little expense and the money could be fumbled back to the athletes, coaches and refs...

How many members do you think?

BTW Mexico is killing us and it only getting worse!!


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## puunui (Jan 30, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I don't think the NGB should be running Nationals the affiliated orgs should.  I think that the NGB should be driving membership for the organization.  It would be required that the members of the affiliated must also be members of the NGB org...  You could raise millions with very little expense and the money could be fumbled back to the athletes, coaches and refs...How many members do you think?



We tried that approach and it brought us zero members. Back in the late 90's I believe, USTU and AAU tried to work together. Mr. Friello said that if we brought them into USTU as a Class C affiliated organization with votes on the Board of Governors, that he would bring 10,000 members to the USTU. USTU said ok, brought AAU into the USTU as a Class C member, with votes on the BOG just like NCTA and the Military, and Mr. Friello brought no members to USTU. 

The reason why it failed was because AAU has no incentive to bring its members to another organization, and in fact has a disincentive to do so. I have spoken to AAU members, who tell us that they do not like AAU but moved from USTU when the regional qualifier system was put in place. The regional system required that they take two long drive or airplane flights for tournaments (regional and nationals) instead of one and they just couldn't do it, time wise or financially. AAU on the other hand makes it easy to qualify for nationals, but there are all kinds of other requirements that people don't like about it. But they put up with it because it is cheaper than going to a usat regionals and then nationals or jos. These aau members have told me that their roots are with USTU and that they would come back immediately if the USTU tournament system of state qualifier and then nationals were brought back.


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## Gorilla (Feb 2, 2012)

In an airport on a business trip allot of what you say is true about peoples attitudes about AAU and many other TKD orgs.  I will comment more tomorrow.  What you are saying is not quite what I was thinking but I will elaborate more.  Some plans fail in the execution.


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## Gorilla (Feb 2, 2012)

As far as the AAU and the board of directors(USTU).  There  are two sides to every story.  The AAU has a different take on how that plan was executed.  This is the problem that we have no trust between orginizations this is systemic in all of TKD.  They were also offered a board seat under the USAT that was not delivered.  If you offered affiliated organizations a true voice they would deliver members.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> As far as the AAU and the board of directors(USTU).  There  are two sides to every story.  The AAU has a different take on how that plan was executed.  This is the problem that we have no trust between orginizations this is systemic in all of TKD.  They were also offered a board seat under the USAT that was not delivered.  If you offered affiliated organizations a true voice they would deliver members.



I can't say about what was offered to AAU, but with respect to the USTU situation, that is clearly documented. AAU was given membership in USTU and a voice and vote on the USTU Board of Governors. AAU was given everything they asked for, and in return, AAU brought nothing. And when you think about it, why would they? What incentive does AAU have to sign up their members to USTU/USAT membership for competition purposes? Nothing, which is why they brought no members. But don't take my word for it, go ask some USTU leaders who were around back then. They will tell you the same thing. Mr. Friello takes, he does not give, which is why so many AAU members are all set to jump ship when USAT gets squared away. It used to be the if people did not want to participate with USTU/USAT, they could simply go over to AAU and get the same thing. Well, people did that and found out that it is not the same thing. The biggest and only advantage of AAU over USAT was the fact that AAU made it very easy to qualify for AAU nationals. Once USAT does the same thing, then those AAU members will come back to USAT.


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## Gorilla (Feb 2, 2012)

If a well lead org which takes care of it members exists people will flock to that org.  I hope that we are about to get that org.   Right now the AAU is the best


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## Gorilla (Feb 2, 2012)

We left the USAT for two reasons fair play.  The competition was the same we fought the same fighters most of the time.  The other reason was coaching at the national team level was much better Limas, Tubbs, Kunkle, Remark, Poos, Martinez and Medina.  Meeting Ms Limas was a life changing experience for my family.


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## puunui (Feb 2, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> We left the USAT for two reasons fair play.  The competition was the same we fought the same fighters most of the time.  The other reason was coaching at the national team level was much better Limas, Tubbs, Kunkle, Remark, Poos, Martinez and Medina.  Meeting Ms Limas was a life changing experience for my family.



Interesting names. We'll see what some of them will do if and when the new administration comes in.


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## Gorilla (Feb 2, 2012)

Everyone is hopeful for the good of the sport that we get an NGB that works.  If we get that I believe all org/coaches in TKD Will support it.  If it is a retread of either the USTU or the USAT many will remain skeptical and will stay away until they can make sure that the NGB is headed in the right direction.  Most believe we need new blood and new direction.  Most have a problem with the control three people have over the NGB.  We need to open our minds and look for new solutions.


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## terryl965 (Feb 3, 2012)

Well as Gorilla knows I had the pleasure of having the AAU national teams and coaches at my school last weekend. The overall consensus was that the USAT was done. But at the same time they believed that the USOC was not doing enough to help bring unity back to TKD and the athletes. I have to agree it seems they are in and doing the exact same thing they fouind them guilty of. I am trying to stay positive but when all you keep seeingis the same BS time after time it is hard. The AAU alt least will give you info if you ask. Mr Friello and the staff is willing to sit down and talk to everybody about anything. That is what I am looking for in a NGB.


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## troubleenuf (Feb 3, 2012)

I agree!  AAU has treated me and my players VERY well.  AAU has a program that works and is FOR THE ATHLETES!  



terryl965 said:


> Well as Gorilla knows I had the pleasure of having the AAU national teams and coaches at my school last weekend. The overall consensus was that the USAT was done. But at the same time they believed that the USOC was not doing enough to help bring unity back to TKD and the athletes. I have to agree it seems they are in and doing the exact same thing they fouind them guilty of. I am trying to stay positive but when all you keep seeingis the same BS time after time it is hard. The AAU alt least will give you info if you ask. Mr Friello and the staff is willing to sit down and talk to everybody about anything. That is what I am looking for in a NGB.


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## Gorilla (Feb 4, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> Well as Gorilla knows I had the pleasure of having the AAU national teams and coaches at my school last weekend. The overall consensus was that the USAT was done. But at the same time they believed that the USOC was not doing enough to help bring unity back to TKD and the athletes. I have to agree it seems they are in and doing the exact same thing they fouind them guilty of. I am trying to stay positive but when all you keep seeingis the same BS time after time it is hard. The AAU alt least will give you info if you ask. Mr Friello and the staff is willing to sit down and talk to everybody about anything. That is what I am looking for in a NGB.



It was great training!  Thanks for all that you do! Great spaghetti...


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## terryl965 (Feb 4, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> It was great training! Thanks for all that you do! Great spaghetti...



I will let my wife know, she deserves all the credit and well Caleb my cheif.


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> The overall consensus was that the USAT was done. But at the same time they believed that the USOC was not doing enough to help bring unity back to TKD and the athletes.



What would you want them to do? Also, what do you means when you say "help bring unity back to TKD and the athletes?" Who or what should be unified?




terryl965 said:


> I have to agree it seems they are in and doing the exact same thing they fouind them guilty of. I am trying to stay positive but when all you keep seeingis the same BS time after time it is hard.



Who is doing the exact same thing?


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## puunui (Feb 6, 2012)

troubleenuf said:


> AAU has treated me and my players VERY well.  AAU has a program that works and is FOR THE ATHLETES!



A lot of people disagree and are just waiting to make the switch back to USAT.


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2012)

I think that we need to put aside the USAT/AAU rivalry and figure out away to work together in the TKD community.  Lots of water under the bridge that we need to put behind us.  Lots of very long memories on both sides. That I am afraid will never let things go.  It is a big problem if we are going to move ahead as a sport in the USA. We need to put this behind us and move forward.


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## Master Dan (Feb 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I just got back from OTC.  We need to put aside old rivaries.  The current CEO is not the answer to much baggage with HP.  He starts to stammer when ever someone brings up getting Herb out of the org.  The old USTU is not the answer.  TKD leadership needs to put aside selfish motives and put together an NGB that operates for the sport and the athletes.  The current group had it's chance get out.  You have done enough damage.  Maybe the USTU was a good org at one time but in the end it became corrupt and killed itself.  I have heard some good ideas about how the organization can run but I am afraid that selfish interests will not allow the to happen.



Again yes there are those who miss the old USTU but not waiting in the grass to jump back into the song remains the same? I have talked with many senior masters and world class competitors who still smart from a feeling of being used including thier money and have just quit in general even advising against others to become involved. Yes I believe many of us would come back with leadership, BOD and fair representation which means states but it seems that temptation and tribal aliances cannot be molded in to a NGB that will not fail? We need a Taekwondo Messia a second comming so to speak that everyone would be so happy with they would become a deciple? I think there are some very credible humble GM's out there that would fit the mold but know enough about the nature of man to not want the burden in thier life or thier MA.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> I think that we need to put aside the USAT/AAU rivalry and figure out away to work together in the TKD community.  Lots of water under the bridge that we need to put behind us.  Lots of very long memories on both sides. That I am afraid will never let things go.  It is a big problem if we are going to move ahead as a sport in the USA. We need to put this behind us and move forward.



I think competition is good. I think having the AAU program as an alternative can only help USAT in the long run. I like the fact that people have a choice of organizations, that the threat of "if you don't treat us right, we will move to AAU" is hopefully always there. Keeps USAT on its toes. I hope that AAU feels the same way, that if there are significant changes at USAT, then they will have to up their game in order to remain competitive with USAT. So I don't think we need to put aside the USAT/AAU rivalry and figure out a way to work together. On the contrary, I think we need to keep that rivalry going.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Master Dan said:


> Again yes there are those who miss the old USTU but not waiting in the grass to jump back into the song remains the same? I have talked with many senior masters and world class competitors who still smart from a feeling of being used including thier money and have just quit in general even advising against others to become involved.



No problem. Those types can stay away. We do not want people who are still smarting from a feeling of being used. Their negative attitudes are as unwelcome as their presence would be. 




Master Dan said:


> Yes I believe many of us would come back with leadership, BOD and fair representation which means states but it seems that temptation and tribal aliances cannot be molded in to a NGB that will not fail?



I don't know what purpose it serves to be saying these types of things. It adds nothing to the discussion. Nothing will be unanimous. Fair representation does not mean everyone has to agree. Democracy doesn't work that way. There will always people who disagree, there will always be people pointing fingers making accusations. That is a given. I think that some of that is a good thing. I want people to fight for state association elections, at national elections. The job of the next administration is to make sure such battles are won fairly, and if people violate our election rules, that there are consequences for such behavior. 




Master Dan said:


> We need a Taekwondo Messia a second comming so to speak that everyone would be so happy with they would become a deciple? I think there are some very credible humble GM's out there that would fit the mold but know enough about the nature of man to not want the burden in thier life or thier MA.



We don't need a messiah. We need someone with the experience and leadership ability to take us where we need to go. To me, there really is only one person for the job, GM John Holloway. He understands from personal experience and knowledge the strengths and weaknesses of the USTU and USAT approaches and also what has to be done to work through the organization's current challenges. I think he is the only one who can pull it off, and I sincerely hope he gets his chance.


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## d1jinx (Feb 7, 2012)

puunui said:


> To me, there really is only one person for the job, GM John Holloway..



he'd have my vote.  only question, is that really a possibility or even a consideration?  I know he was running for Referee chair or at least trying before all this mess...


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

d1jinx said:


> he'd have my vote.  only question, is that really a possibility or even a consideration?  I know he was running for Referee chair or at least trying before all this mess...



yes, he is still a candidate for the board and will be a candidate, no matter what the remedy imposed by the USOC will be.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 7, 2012)

i dont see why any of you cares

its getting kicked out of the olympics

when that happens, the whole ball of wax falls apart because you are all set up to cater to that ONE thing. If I was in any of yours shoes, i would be lookign for an ITF school or something NON WTF to latch myself onto


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont see why any of you cares
> 
> its getting kicked out of the olympics



maybe. we'll see. 



Twin Fist said:


> when that happens, the whole ball of wax falls apart because you are all set up to cater to that ONE thing. If I was in any of yours shoes, i would be lookign for an ITF school or something NON WTF to latch myself onto



actually that is not true, "we" don't cater to one thing. even if we are out of the olympics, there is still world championships, pan am games, world university games, etc. In short, it will be like it was prior to the 2000 Sydney Olympic Games.


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2012)

Puunui....that would be a productive rivalry...competition is good...i don't think that is what we have right now but I like you welcome healthy competition...that is how I make my living...that is great for our sport


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i dont see why any of you cares
> 
> its getting kicked out of the olympics
> 
> when that happens, the whole ball of wax falls apart because you are all set up to cater to that ONE thing. If I was in any of yours shoes, i would be lookign for an ITF school or something NON WTF to latch myself onto



We also compete in NKF/WKF Karate.  It is a great sport also.  We compete in WTF TKD because we like it not because it is in the OLympics.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 7, 2012)

so without the olympics you would still do it?


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## mastercole (Feb 7, 2012)

Current Taekwondo schedule, minus the London Games


Feb 9-11Manama, Bahrain4th Bahrain OpenFeb 21-24Las Vegas, USA2012 US OpenMar 3-4Hamburg, GermanyGerman Open 2012April 4-8Sharm El Sheikh, Egypt9th WTF World Junior Taekwondo ChampionshipsMay 3-6Manchester, UK20th European Senior Taekwondo ChampionshipsMay 4HCMC, Vietnam2nd Asian Taekwondo Poomsae ChampionshipsMay 4HCMC, Vietnam1st Asian Junior Taekwondo Poomsae ChampionshipsMay 5-6HCMC, Vietnam6th Asian Junior Taekwondo ChampionshipsMay 7-8HCMC, Vietnam20th Asian Taekwondo ChampionshipsMay 20-25Quebec City, Canada2012 Sportaccord ConventionMay 25-30Pocheon, Korea2012 World University Taekwondo ChampionshipsJul 19-23Alexandria, Egypt5th Alexandria International OpenNov 22Santa Cruz, Aruba3rd WTF World Para-Taekwondo ChampionshipsNov 23-25Santa Cruz, Aruba2012 WTF World Cup Taekwondo Team ChampionshipsDec 6-9Medellin, Colombia7th WTF World Taekwondo Poomsae Championships

Current Tae Kwon Do schedule, minus all the above events ( humorous comparison 


Feb 7Rubb, MontanaJims Tae Kwon Do invi-tay-tion-alFeb 31Bucket, Georgia2012 Backyard Dojo ChampionshipsMar 7Podunk, TexasBudweiser Tae Kwon Do Throw-downApril 8Coalmont, TennesseeBluegrass Tae Kwon Do ChampionshipsMay 20-21Blue Moon, KentuckyJethros Tai Kwan Doe
HootenannyMay 23Boone, North CarolinaFighten Mad ChampionshipsMay 24Boone, North CarolinaRicky Bobbys World Tae Kwon Do
ChampionshipsMay 25Boone, North CarolinaTae Kwon Do Senseis Education SeminarMay 30Little Rock, ArkansasOak Ridge Mountain Tae Kwon Do JubileeJune 2Podunk, TexasMiller Time Tae Kwon Do jamboreeJune 12Pocheon, KoreaWhurs taht at? ChampionshipsJul 4Richmond, VAPickn & a Grinnin
Tae Kwon Do thangy


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## Twin Fist (Feb 7, 2012)

i would go to a pickin and grinning championship


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> so without the olympics you would still do it?



Yes...tkd/sport tkd is a life long passion as well as Shotokan Karate/Sport Karate!


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## Twin Fist (Feb 7, 2012)

thats everyone's sales pitch though 
"You could go to the olympics"


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> so without the olympics you would still do it?



of course.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> thats everyone's sales pitch though
> "You could go to the olympics"




It's not my pitch. In most taekwondo schools, competition is de-emphasized. I asked some of my friends who run very large commercial dojang and they all say that having taekwondo out of the olympics would not affect them. they hear the types of criticism that you like to regularly voice with regard to taekwondo, and they all laugh, all the way to the bank.


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## puunui (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i would go to a pickin and grinning championship



Really? Isn't the budwiser throw down and miller time jamboree closer to your house?


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## Twin Fist (Feb 7, 2012)

yeah but i dont drink


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## Gorilla (Feb 7, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> thats everyone's sales pitch though
> "You could go to the olympics"



Going to the Olympics is highly unlikely!  Many parents buy into that one! It is true (you can go) but the guy/girl selling you that dream is not going to be the one to get you there.

Anyone with any credibility does not sell it that way.  TKD has much more to offer than just the Olympics.  It takes years of training everyday (4-8hrs) just to put yourself in a position to go to the Olympics and then your chances of making it
are slim.  If you want to go to the Olympics be ready to dedicate your life to it. Even if you have the dedication you still may not go.  

If you are willing to make that sacrifice and work that hard you will be a success in anything that you do.

That is why my kids train so hard because in the end they no that it will lead to a successful life.


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## MSUTKD (Feb 8, 2012)

Going to the World Championships sounds like impossibility too but I have been lucky to do that 4 times.  Believe me if I can do it, when there are so many talented US athletes out there, anyone can.  It is so easy to look at all of the negative aspects of taekwondo, usually pointed out by those who are not involved outside of their garage, that the real reason we train is forgotten; to become better.  Because I have gotten on a Team does not make me anything but because I STILL try to improve my skill to the best of my ability does.  I have realized though this process how little I really know and how much further I must climb.  Without my seniors and teammates I am nothing as they have inspired me to achieve not discouraged me from the seemingly impossible.

Words are easy weapons volleyed across endless voids but actions require actual training and must be brandished personally.  Sport requires one to be physically, mentally and spiritually superior to their opponent and face the consequences of ones training methodology.  Talking requires nothing.

Train.
 Now.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 8, 2012)

It's motivating to compete in tournaments and to meet and learn from dedicated and skilled people. It's motivating to see both poomsae and sparring that is above my level...because I want to become that skilled. I'm no different than the little kid who wants to be like the big kid, or the big kid who wants to be like the adult: we all need models to make real what's possible. The value of Olympics, World Championships, etc. isn't only for those who compete. It shows what's possible through training. I may not (ok, won't) ever round kick as fast as Aaron Cook, but I see what's possible and work toward it. I watch Master Southwick and Master Cooley go head-to-head in poomsae and get all fired up to train poomsae. Higher level events are important motivators for all of us.

Carl


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## msmitht (Feb 8, 2012)

Apparently twin fist has nothng better to do than bash wtf/kkw tkd. He can try to rationalize all he wants but most don't care about the slander. We will move forward with or without the olympics. We did before.
How about we no longer reply to his wtf/kkw bashing posts except to say "well, that is your opinion and you have every right to it".
I personally have never used the olympics as a selling point. I have pointed out that we are the DOMINATE tkd on the planet.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

this isnt bashing,

i CAN bash, and you wont be able to deny anything i say cuz it will all be true, but in this thread, i am not bashing

in this thread, i am being serious

who gives a crap about the usat or whatever? it will be irellevant once the golden olympic key is taken away anyhow.

and better question, if it is so bad, why align yourself with them? oh, could it be that you HAVE to to play this game? thats too bad if it is true.

oh, and at one point in time,the backstreet boys were the dominate recording artists in the world, that didnt make them not suck. Popularity doesnt equate to quality. Twillight anyone?

besides popularity fades
quality lasts forever


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## terryl965 (Feb 8, 2012)

I am going to chime in here as I speak for my family only: My wife competes because she enjoys the competition and friendship she makes at each and every event, she will never be a elite level Olympic hopeful but she enjoys competing.

Michael my baby enjoys fighting like he says it is like boxing he can hit someone and not get in trouble and he has friends all over the world due to Olympic TKD, that would have never happen if it was not for the sport side.

Caleb my 15 year old say he just likes having the oppotunity to show he can compete with some of the best in his age and weight class, it gives him confidence to try to be better.

Zachary is looking forward to college and being able to compete at colligent games and maybe one day have a shot of making the US team. He is only 17 but if not for TKD who knows what would have happen.

My school has enough people that if it was not an Olympic event nobody would care they love competing.

People compete in football knowing the chance of becoming a pro is slim but yet they still enjoy it and understand itis not pro football thatdrives them but being able to play the game, it is the same way for most Olympic fightewrsit is a game of chess and being able to test there skils against other great athletes. This stuff people hope to be an Olympic athlete is far and in between since we only send two males and females every four years.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

good deal


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## miguksaram (Feb 8, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> thats everyone's sales pitch though
> "You could go to the olympics"


Who is everyone?  None of the TKD schools around my area pitch the Olympics to potential students.  Are you saying you have been to every KKW TKD school in your area and sat down with them to hear a sales pitch and they all said that to you?  If so they are fooling themselves much more than they are fooling you.


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## miguksaram (Feb 8, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> this isnt bashing,
> 
> i CAN bash, and you wont be able to deny anything i say cuz it will all be true, but in this thread, i am not bashing
> 
> in this thread, i am being serious


Yes you can bash, does not make it true.  Keep in mind that while Olympics was a goal of the TKD the "Olympic dream" didn't not take shape until 1988, when it was introduced as a spectator sport in the Olympics.  By then the art was already practiced world wide and I would gander made itself known as one of the world's most popular martial art if not THE most popular art.  So within 15+ years, it thrived and survived without Olympics.  If it gets its status taken away as an Olympic sport, it will continue to thrive and survive.  Mst. Cole has already pointed out the multitude of competitions that will go on, and he really didn't even put in KKW sanctioned events such as the World Hanmadang or even the US Open National Hanmadang, which has no connection to the Olympic movement whatsoever. 



> who gives a crap about the usat or whatever? it will be irellevant once the golden olympic key is taken away anyhow.
> 
> and better question, if it is so bad, why align yourself with them? oh, could it be that you HAVE to to play this game? thats too bad if it is true.


The organization is not the problem.  It is the leadership that is the problem.  Do you leave America because you don't like the government?  Of course not (well hopefully not). You work towards changes in a grass roots effort to change the leadership, hopefully, for the better.



> oh, and at one point in time,the backstreet boys were the dominate recording artists in the world, that didnt make them not suck. Popularity doesnt equate to quality. Twillight anyone?


You are just looking at one instance of a genre.  While BSB may fade from popularity the Boy Bands have not and that type of genre is still alive and well throughout the world.   If you don't agree just take a look at Korea where the top music are done by Boy Bands like Infinite, Super Jr and ShinEE just to name a few.  BTW...BSB still tend to have high ticket sales for their concerts and maintain a popularity even today.  The whole Twilight movie may have sucked but the Vampire movie genre it help popularize is thriving quite well.  Not everyone is going to be a TKD star, but that still does not mean that TKD will cease to exist or cease to remain one of the world's most practiced martial art.


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## d1jinx (Feb 8, 2012)

everyone keeps feeding the round little troll. All I see are "ignored" blocks when the troll posts.  It was nice and TROLL-less for quite some time here.  Trolls like to bounce around and cause issues you know.  Dont feed him and hopefully he'll dissapear again.  maybe for good.  no loss since he never has any real input.

:trollsign

if you want a real laugh watch the trolls youtube videos.  then you'll learn not to take him serious.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

i have seen it with my own little eyes, but hey, i am GLAD that that isnt the norm. I am happy to be wrong about that. All the eggs in one basket is never a good idea.



miguksaram said:


> Who is everyone?  None of the TKD schools around my area pitch the Olympics to potential students.  Are you saying you have been to every KKW TKD school in your area and sat down with them to hear a sales pitch and they all said that to you?  If so they are fooling themselves much more than they are fooling you.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

now this is a great post, and you make good salient points.

And, for the sake of the kids, i hope you are right. For me, i would love to see the whole of the wtf and everything they do burn to the ground, it is my personal opinion that they have taken a deadly martial art and turned it into a spectator sport.

but thats just opinion, i dont like mma either, for much the same reasons.

I would preferre if the korean kickboxing must exist that it be seperated from real TKD, cuz it really is its own animal.

So, the leadership is the issue? doesnt the leadership set the direction of the org? so if the leadership is bad, doesnt that make the org bad? at least as long as that leadership is in place? i dont know. I am just asking.

My only point was that popularity doesnt equal quality. You would agree with that wouldnt you?




miguksaram said:


> Yes you can bash, does not make it true.  Keep in mind that while Olympics was a goal of the TKD the "Olympic dream" didn't not take shape until 1988, when it was introduced as a spectator sport in the Olympics.  By then the art was already practiced world wide and I would gander made itself known as one of the world's most popular martial art if not THE most popular art.  So within 15+ years, it thrived and survived without Olympics.  If it gets its status taken away as an Olympic sport, it will continue to thrive and survive.  Mst. Cole has already pointed out the multitude of competitions that will go on, and he really didn't even put in KKW sanctioned events such as the World Hanmadang or even the US Open National Hanmadang, which has no connection to the Olympic movement whatsoever.
> 
> 
> The organization is not the problem.  It is the leadership that is the problem.  Do you leave America because you don't like the government?  Of course not (well hopefully not). You work towards changes in a grass roots effort to change the leadership, hopefully, for the better.
> ...


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## MJS (Feb 8, 2012)

Hmm...what is it that we're always saying....oh yeah...attack the message, not the messenger.  Let table the personal shots please.  If someone disagrees with something someone said, instead of saying the person is an ***, how about coming back with proof that the person is wrong.


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## mastercole (Feb 8, 2012)

MSUTKD said:


> Going to the World Championships sounds like impossibility too but I have been lucky to do that 4 times.  Believe me if I can do it, when there are so many talented US athletes out there, anyone can.  It is so easy to look at all of the negative aspects of taekwondo, usually pointed out by those who are not involved outside of their garage, that the real reason we train is forgotten; to become better.  Because I have gotten on a Team does not make me anything but because I STILL try to improve my skill to the best of my ability does.  I have realized though this process how little I really know and how much further I must climb.  Without my seniors and teammates I am nothing as they have inspired me to achieve not discouraged me from the seemingly impossible.
> 
> Words are easy weapons volleyed across endless voids but actions require actual training and must be brandished personally.  Sport requires one to be physically, mentally and spiritually superior to their opponent and face the consequences of ones training methodology.  Talking requires nothing.
> 
> ...



Excellent. But to some men, the World Taekwondo Federation is a very public and thus very scary place to venture so they choose the garage, or some unrelated group.

"Adversity causes some men to break; others to break records." ~ William A. Ward


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

or they see no value in it. or they dont like it, or they dont look good in v-necks and hogu

not everything is for everyone.


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## mastercole (Feb 8, 2012)

msmitht said:


> Apparently twin fist has nothng better to do than bash wtf/kkw tkd. He can try to rationalize all he wants but most don't care about the slander. We will move forward with or without the olympics. We did before.
> How about we no longer reply to his wtf/kkw bashing posts except to say "well, that is your opinion and you have every right to it".
> I personally have never used the olympics as a selling point. I have pointed out that we are the DOMINATE tkd on the planet.



As you and I both know, it takes balls to step up to the plate. That is why some choose to stay home and never even enter the field.

_"You miss 100 percent of the shots you don't take." ~ Wayne Gretzky_


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## d1jinx (Feb 8, 2012)

MJS said:


> Hmm...what is it that we're always saying....oh yeah...attack the message, not the messenger.  .



but its always the same cynical message from the same cynical messenger...



MJS said:


> ... *the person is an ****, how about coming back with proof that the person is wrong.



i would have a better chance converting a muslim to christianity...

but point taken.


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## Gorilla (Feb 8, 2012)

I don't think twin fist has been out of line in this thread!


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## Twin Fist (Feb 8, 2012)

thanks gorilla


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## miguksaram (Feb 9, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> now this is a great post, and you make good salient points.
> 
> And, for the sake of the kids, i hope you are right. For me, i would love to see the whole of the wtf and everything they do burn to the ground, it is my personal opinion that they have taken a deadly martial art and turned it into a spectator sport.


While I do not believe everything should be geared towards just the sport aspect, I do believe the sport aspect is something that is needed within the art.  It allows people to take their teaching to a different level or practice and application.  I love sport martial arts.  I also love traditional martial arts, one does not dominate the other in my life, but that is just me.  I did not originally get into TKD or martial arts for that matter, because of an Olympic dream or shiny trophies, nor do I stay in it for that reason.  I just enjoy competing, not so much for the awards as it is the to meet a whole bunch of people I may have never met before.  Again...this is just me.



> but thats just opinion, i dont like mma either, for much the same reasons.


I do love watching some good MMA matches and have a great deal of respect for the training those guys go though.  What I do not like is the image that shows like TUF portray to the public, because there are so many MMA people who not like that at all.  However, it is TV and they have to make the drama happen to make the money.



> I would preferre if the korean kickboxing must exist that it be seperated from real TKD, cuz it really is its own animal.


This is where we differ in opinion.  I feel that it is just one small part of real TKD, and not its own art which, unfortunately, some TKD people will tend to make it out to be.  



> So, the leadership is the issue? doesnt the leadership set the direction of the org? so if the leadership is bad, doesnt that make the org bad? at least as long as that leadership is in place? i dont know. I am just asking.


Yes and no.  If you look at the leadership as the sole identity of the org then yes bad leadership = bad org.  However, I look at the org not only in its leadership but the people who belong to it.  People like Mst. Uesegi, Mst. Cole, Mst. Smith, and others on this board are very good people who want the best for the organization and try their best to lead their students and colleagues in the best direction even if it means defying the leadership.  A strong organization lies not only in its leaders but in the foundation of its members.  



> My only point was that popularity doesnt equal quality. You would agree with that wouldnt you?


Yes, I can agree to that.  I still have nightmares about the macorena.


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## Gorilla (Feb 9, 2012)

Back to the topic when do you think that the USOC will pick a plan and what will that look like.


Puunui are you a lawyer?


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## puunui (Feb 9, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Back to the topic when do you think that the USOC will pick a plan and what will that look like.



Your guess is as good as mine or anyone elses. I think it is good that the USOC Hearing Panel is taking time to do it right. The USOC Hearing Panel stated that the last time in 2004, things were cut that shouldnt have been cut because people were rushing, and they do not want to make the same mistake. 




Gorilla said:


> are you a lawyer?



You are thinking of bagehot.

I will say that when the new administration rolls in, there will be a need for attorneys in the organization. The voluntary services of attorneys would be helpful in revising bylaws, setting up state associations, serving on a membership and credentials committee, a judical committee (to resolve election disputes), and so forth. Advice of counsel is always a good thing before embarking on anything major.


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## Gorilla (Feb 9, 2012)

When it comes to business you can't survive with out a good attorney.


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## mastercole (Feb 9, 2012)

Dear Mr. Eric Parthen

There are many state association presidents and officers (myself included) who are confused and some very upset at the latest email received from USAT regarding USAT Martial Arts Commission (MAC) organization.  I am writing to you to explain my reasons and opinions and I hope you are willing to understand.


We received the email information for the USAT Martial Arts Commission (MAC) poomsae and dan certification seminar taking place at US Open.    The MAC contract/term with USAT expired in December 2011.  Did you sign and renew their contract?  If you did, please tell me where this was published or announcement to the public.  Please tell me your reason on continuing their term?   I am disappointed that you do not recognize the enormous mistake you are making by keeping MAC association part of USA Taekwondo.  MAC is a cancer to USAT that will slowly hurt our NGB and eventually lead to the demise of our state association. You said in our last state president meeting that state associations are vital to the success of USA Taekwondo but this MAC organization is hindering our growth and success.


I know you are new as CEO but you must know this upfront, other state associations will not be pleased with news that you are continuing to work with USAT MAC.  If MAC was like a Referee Committee or Tournament Committee and did only committee work, that would be acceptable, but they are taking over State Association roles and preventing state associations to grow.  WHY would you support an organization that hinders our states to grow?  If MAC wants to host an event in a state, they should be required to contact that state association for support and work together.  There is major conflict having two separate state assocations MAC and of the official assocation.  WE NEED TO UNITE AND SUPPORT USAT NOT CAUSE CONFUSION AND SEPARATION.

Please review everything USAT MAC has done in the past and you will find that they have not had much success.  In fact, due to MAC our State Associations have had many problems.  Due to MAC affiliation with USAT, people are confused about which association is the official USAT State assocation.  Last year, MAC in Michigan held their own state championship and competed against the official State Championship qualifier and both were unsuccessful.  MAC should not be allowed to host official state championships.

I don't know if you are aware, but because USAT MAC conducted a Kukkiwon seminar last year, many Grandmasters and Masters had bad experiences from that seminar at US Open and USAT reputation was tainted.  Former President Sang Lee is  having legal fight with Kukkiwon for over $2 million because of a breach of contract due to MAC holding that dan seminar.  The reason why I bring this to your attention is because I want you to understand, MAC does not think or care about rules and repercussions- only about making a few dollars.  I fear that they will make a mistake and bring problems for USAT too.

There are many things that I would like to address regarding the USAT MAC invitation for the USAT National Dan Certification Test taking place on February 23 at US Open.


The picture of a black belt on the information packet has "USAT - MARTIAL ARTS COMMISSION" in English and above in Korean is written "USA Taekwondo Martial Arts Union" making it look like it's an official organization like USTU/USAT- NOT a martial arts commission.  It gives people the wrong impression and is falsely misusing the korean words.  The invitation letter is signed, "Eric Parthen, CEO, USA Taekwondo" and "Senior Grandmaster Joon P. Choi, PRESIDENT, USAT Martial Arts Commission, Board Member USAT."  How is Joon P Choi a "President" position when he is not a state association, his title should be martial arts commissioner or chairperson.  I asked Joon P Choi and David Askinas  in front of everyone in a state association meeting last year why he was using the "president" term and he even said he is not President but "commissioner."  I am explaining this to you so you can understand how MAC is overstepping their boundaries and created a false impression to the public.  This is very disrespectful in the martial arts community and taints the image of USAT for associating with them.  

Another issue I have with USAT is promoting their own black belt dans.  I would like you to understand how this will effect many schools and how it can effect USAT's future.  Many schools use Kukkiwon dan promotion as part of their business and this will interfere with their livilihood as more people become aware of the USAT Dans.  Instead of thinking of immediate ways of making a few dollars like producing your own dans, why not think of working out a plan with Kukkiwon to make THOUSANDS of dollars by partnership instead?  By supporting the World Taekwondo Headquarters Kukkiwon USAT establishes a positive relationship overseas.  This is the kind of ideas and plans that I have for USAT to help our NGB get out of debt.  You need people to work for USAT who are not not there for personal financial gains.  I asked you in our last meeting HOW you were planning on getting USAT out of our financial debt and I will tell you sir your recent actions is going backwards like old CEO Askinas.

In order for USA Taekwondo to get out of our financial debt and to rebuild our membership growth and be successful, you cannot make the same mistakes the old CEO David Askinas made.  There needs to be a change in your plans and communication with state associations for their advice and support are vital for the success of USAT.  If you are going to sit as CEO and continue to do things the same as Askinas then we (state association) will be forced to confront the USOC and demand a change.  With new social media like mobile technologies and websites it's very easy to get the public informed on what needs to be announced.  


My mission, whether CUTA President or not, will always be to support our NGB and help promote the future growth of USA Taekwondo.  The mistakes made in the past by previous USAT CEO's who came from soccer, volleyball and now boxing is that there is a difference between those sports and our Taekwondo martial arts and sport.  There are lines of respect and culture and etiquette that is developed through Taekwondo that is dismissed with CEO's who make "business decisions" without knowing the history.  This can  create not just problems among us (Grandmasters and Masters) nationally but Internationally as well.  Please know you are welcome to contact me for any questions or if you would like my opinion on any matter I am always willing to help.


Please send me your response as soon as possible.  I am in discussion with state association presidents and officers and we need to know what the news is for the status of MAC with USAT. 

Mr. Parthen, your CEO interim contract ended January 31 last month but you are being introduced at US Open as the new USAT CEO.  Please tell me your plans to help USAT recover from the financial debt.

Thank you

President Young In Cheon
California Unified Taekwondo Association 

 CC:  CUTA officers and State Association President and Officers of Utah, Colorado, Michigan, Kansas, Illinois, Oregon, Washington


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## puunui (Feb 10, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> When it comes to business you can't survive with out a good attorney.



Or a good CPA, and for an organization like USAT, one or several who are experienced on the auditing side. Which we have lined up by the way, at least one who is willing to volunteer his time, knowledge and experience to the cause.... First thing that needs to be done is to fire all of the financial people in the office and outsource most of the accounting work. USAT is a relatively simple and small organization, one that does not need a full time person or staff to handle the books. The only thing we may need is a part time accounting clerk to organize things, or maybe a combination accounting clerk/receptionist who can answer the phones. Doing this one thing should save us over $100k per year. Perhaps when the organization grows, we can think about getting one full time person, maybe, but not now.


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## Gorilla (Feb 11, 2012)

The smaller the staff the better.  I would like to outsource nationals also many things could be done on a contract basis.  The primary focus should be on funding for the athlete.

Revenue generation and expense reduction in my mantra.  We need to think out of the traditional TKD Box and think more like a business.


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## puunui (Feb 11, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> The smaller the staff the better.  I would like to outsource nationals also many things could be done on a contract basis.  The primary focus should be on funding for the athlete. Revenue generation and expense reduction in my mantra.  We need to think out of the traditional TKD Box and think more like a business.



If revenue generation and expense reduction is your mantra, when why would you want to eliminate or severely limit what has been traditionally our second largest revenue generator for our NGB? We used to outsource both Nationals and JOs. Then in I think 1997, we took it in house and it quickly became one of our most important profit generators out there. The profits we got from JOs for example, would pay for the last six months of our organization's expenses. Outsourcing our events is NOT the solution to our problems. 

I also disagree that our primary focus should be on funding for athletes. That perspective fails to take into account all of the other areas of the organization. Instead, I believe a focus must be to develop the four key elements of our structure: athletes, coaches, referees and leaders/administrators. We need to have grass root pipelines for all four areas. Athletes, coaches and referees are a no brainer. Each of the four areas is essential for our continued development towards excellence. 

The fourth area, administrators and leaders, is the one most likely to be overlooked. One of the main problems with USAT for the last eight years is that people who had little or no prior experience in leadership or administration were suddenly thrust into positions of power. The top layer was removed, the middle layer minimalized, and resulting in low level types being advanced to positions which they were ill equipped to handle. As a result, they made rookie mistakes which have proved fatal. These neophytes put all their poorly conceived ideas into motion, which failed miserably, which of course, caused the membership to leave. We need to develop an organizational structure which allows our members to practice their leadership skills, as administrators, and even as athletes, coaches and referees. That is where *one* of our main focuses should be, bringing people up who can eventually take over, as referees, coaches and administrators. 

It is relatively easy to determine our future leaders in the referee and coach corps. The big wild card at the moment is the development of future leaders for USAT. Hopefully, the resurrection of state associations will give us a clearer picture on that. Traditionally, our national leaders have come from state associations, in much the same way that Presidents, members of Congress and the US Senate got their start in local and state politics.


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## Gorilla (Feb 11, 2012)

We have not had allot of revenue generated as of late if we contract it out we might actually make  a profit.  I agree athletes, referees, coaches and leaders. I should not have left them out of my post.

The NGB could work with multiple national organizations.


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## puunui (Feb 11, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> We have not had allot of revenue generated as of late if we contract it out we might actually make  a profit.



We did not make revenue from event recently because the regionals and rocky mountain open, which are poorly attended, drags the whole thing down. That and the fact that numbers in general are very low. Back at USTU, Nationals ran 1500 competitors and JOs was 6000, or 7500 total. Today it is 2000 total Nationals/JOs. That is why it is no longer generating revenue. The numbers are not there. And again, outsourcing isn't the solution, bringing back members who compete nationally is. 




Gorilla said:


> The NGB could work with multiple national organizations.



Those other organizations grew at USAT's expense. However, when this thing turns around, there are many who are ready and willing to make the jump back to USAT. AAU was the organization that gained the most from USAT demise, and it will also be the organization most hurt by USAT's looming resurrection.


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## Gorilla (Feb 12, 2012)

The USAT will only grow if it provides quality service to it's customers.  Working and partnering with other organizations could be away to do that.  People will only leave AAU if another organization is able to provide a superior product.  It has been a few years since anyone has been able to do that.  We have been involved at one time or the other with all the current TKD orgs and AAU is the best org currently.  This is the one that our coach currently supports and we will follow her advice.  We did attend our fist USATevent in sometime and as you know current leadership did not impress.  I only speak for me but if you look at recent letters he did not impress GM YIC.

If GM YIC became the head of the org many people would relook at the USAT.  He is one of the most honest men I have met in TKD.  He has great deal of respect from our coach.


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## leadleg (Feb 12, 2012)

I am not sure why any one would leave the AAU in favor of USAT or the other way around. I mean a lot of high level coaches that went to AAU still compete in both venues, most of the coaches I know are into competing more. It does not cost much to join both org's. The competition aspect would be much better if their respective nationals were not so close together.


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## Gorilla (Feb 13, 2012)

gorilla said:


> back to the topic when do you think that the usoc will pick a plan and what will that look like.
> 
> 
> Puunui are you a lawyer?



ustu v dae sung lee


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

leadleg said:


> I am not sure why any one would leave the AAU in favor of USAT or the other way around.



For the recreational dojang, they don't like certain aspects of the local qualifier participation requirements, which are absent from USAT events. 




leadleg said:


> I mean a lot of high level coaches that went to AAU still compete in both venues, most of the coaches I know are into competing more.



If all goes well, they won't need to go to AAU to "compete more".




leadleg said:


> It does not cost much to join both org's. The competition aspect would be much better if their respective nationals were not so close together.



Can't help that one. Both organizations have traditionally held JOs during the fourth of july weekend. We can, however, break up Nationals and JOs into s eparate events, like it used to be at USTU/USAT.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> ustu v dae sung lee



Actually, it's Dae Sung Lee vs. USTU, USOC, et.al. GM Lee was the plaintiff in that case and sued USTU and USOC, not the other way around.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> The USAT will only grow if it provides quality service to it's customers.  Working and partnering with other organizations could be away to do that.  People will only leave AAU if another organization is able to provide a superior product.  It has been a few years since anyone has been able to do that.  We have been involved at one time or the other with all the current TKD orgs and AAU is the best org currently.  This is the one that our coach currently supports and we will follow her advice.  We did attend our fist USATevent in sometime and as you know current leadership did not impress.  I only speak for me but if you look at recent letters he did not impress GM YIC.



At this point, very few continue to support or defend the current USAT administration. Everyone knows that it is screwed up there. Also no one thinks that AAU members will switch organizations under the current administration. At some point in the very near future, things will change at USAT. 



Gorilla said:


> If GM YIC became the head of the org many people would relook at the  USAT.  He is one of the most honest men I have met in TKD.  He has great  deal of respect from our coach.



GM Cheon doesn't want to be the head of the organization.


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## Gorilla (Feb 13, 2012)

Puunui on what side of that case did you fall.


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## puunui (Feb 13, 2012)

Gorilla said:


> Puunui on what side of that case did you fall.



Which case, GM Lee's? GM Lee is my friend and senior for more decades than I care to think about. Of course I was on his side, and against the current administration who was responsible for what happened to him. But that doesn't mean I am going to let emotion get in the way of what needs to be done now. We will not be engaging in any heckling witch hunts, lynchings, mob mentality or mob behavior at this critical juncture in taekwondo's history, at least if I can help it. We are better than that. That type of behavior is what got us to the place we are at presently in USAT, and it will not be the thing that gets us out.


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## Gorilla (Feb 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> Which case, GM Lee's? GM Lee is my friend and senior for more decades than I care to think about. Of course I was on his side, and against the current administration who was responsible for what happened to him. But that doesn't mean I am going to let emotion get in the way of what needs to be done now. We will not be engaging in any heckling witch hunts, lynchings, mob mentality or mob behavior at this critical juncture in taekwondo's history, at least if I can help it. We are better than that. That type of behavior is what got us to the place we are at presently in USAT, and it will not be the thing that gets us out.



Ok you know what I am going to back off and look at the big picture.  Let the Lopez ride off into the sunset but it needs to end.
Sorry about that BRAZIL.




I hope the TKD leadership can make this work


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