# youn wha ryu



## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

i am a part of Grand Master Man Hee Hans world youn wha ryu association. its foundation is tkd but very extensively mixed with wing chun, chinese boxing, judo, and a few others. our main websight for my divission is younwha.com. i was wondering if any of you have heard of this system before and if so, what do you think about it. 
but i don't want you to get me wrong, i am very confident i am in a great system, i was just wondering what others thought about it. 

with respect, 
painstain


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## Brother John (Jul 10, 2006)

No, I've _never_ heard of this before.

interesting


Your Brother
John

*PS: Please, tell us more.*


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## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

well brother john, i'm not sure what to say other than ask a specific question and i'll answer the best i can. i am always worried that i might not represent our system as well as i should if i just go on about it. i started three years ago with my wife and two oldest sons. i became addicted with it and a year later took the instructors course so i could teach. we have a great one step, like most tkd systems, our youn wha self defense goes to about seventy. we have an abundance of hand techniques to match our extinsive kicking. we practice randori once or twice a week, depends on how much you want to learn in one week. we have realistic self defense classes along with cane fighting, escrima/ kali stick fight, nunchucku, and the han method tai chi. i'm not sure what else to say but am willing to answer any question you may have to the best of my ability. i do recomend visiting younwha.com learn more about us.

with respect, 
painstain


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## Brother John (Jul 10, 2006)

What is the belt stucture like?

What is the Grandmaster's background?? ((as in: Who'd he study under? What ranks did he achieve? What art comprises the largest amount of the curriculum? Do you have/use manuals to detail the students progress???))

Thanks for sharing. 
I LOVE to hear/learn about different systems.

Your Brother
John
PS: What does the name of the art mean??


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## Brother John (Jul 10, 2006)

also:
Is there a location or 'center' of this system? Where is the grandmaster? (USA? Korea??)
Are there 'internal' aspects of the study?

How many schools are there of this system??

thanks again


Your Brother
John


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## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

john, 
i'm seeking advice on some of your questions so bare with me. we have schools in 19 states and Grand Master Han is now based in dallas texas. 
here in springfield, mo, we have 19 schools in surrou8nding towns. our training priciples are as stated: be polite be patiant be alert be brave do your best respect yourself and others. he is korean, but the system is very much influenced by japanese and chinese systems. the curriculum up to brown belt is mainly tkd. after brown belt one starts to engage in more advanced martial arts including but not limited to weapons, our self defense system, philosophy, teaching, and public serviceadvanced sparring.  i will get back to you on the rest of your questions within 24 hours. 

with respect, 
painstain


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## rmclain (Jul 10, 2006)

painstain said:
			
		

> i am a part of Grand Master Man Hee Hans world youn wha ryu association. its foundation is tkd but very extensively mixed with wing chun, chinese boxing, judo, and a few others. our main websight for my divission is younwha.com. i was wondering if any of you have heard of this system before and if so, what do you think about it.
> but i don't want you to get me wrong, i am very confident i am in a great system, i was just wondering what others thought about it.
> 
> with respect,
> painstain


 
Hello Painstain,

Yes, I know of your Grandmaster.  You may have a great system, but Mr. Han made up some false stories about his background and teachers.  He originally started training under Kum Hong Lee (Sec. General of W.T.F.) in South Korea. 

Even if you look at the form requirements from the younwha web site, students are learning the World Taekwondo Federation (WTF) Palgue 1-8 forms and the WTF 1967 Yudansha forms (Koryo, Tae Baek,, etc).  I saw later that students get some Okinawan forms beginning in the black belt ranks and even a chuan-fa form (Palgi Kwon) at 7th dan. This makes sense, because Man Hee Han was a student of Lee Kum Hong, who was from the Kang Duk Won (chuan-fa and karate dojang).  Of note: Palgi Kwon is NOT a Youn Wha form.  This form was a standard chuan-fa form taught at the Chang Moo Kwan and Kang Duk Won.  

A more accurate lineage of Mr. Han would be:  Yoon Byung-in (Pal Guek Moon Chuan-fa & Shuto-Ryu), Park Chul Hee & Hong Jong Pyo (Kang Duk Won), Lee Kum Hong, then Man Hee Han.

R. McLain


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## Flying Crane (Jul 10, 2006)

I am curious to know what of Wing Chun and the other Chinese Boxing has been incorporated into the system?  Is it on a basic level such as specific hand technques, or it is more extensive such as complete forms including the basics and foundations appropriate to the specific system, so that the forms are done properly?  

also, what are the other Chinese Boxing systems that have influenced the art?  thx.


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## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

rmclain, its awesome that you know so much about him, but i'm not about to call him a liar. its no suprise that the forms came from other systems, the more i learn of other tkd systems, the more it seems like they all get there forms from the same place. if you read the history and the training he has, again i'm not about to call him a liar, on younwha.com, the history of youn wha is shrouded in some fantasy myth, the words youn wha is the name of a woman and means way of water lillies. i am going to paste it here from the site so that i don't say anything wrong or what i feel would be a misrepresentation.

This is a story, a legend, a myth. Many people consider that arts that claim to be made up of many different arts should be avoided as they are not true martial arts. The truth is that Grandmaster Han has over 60 years experience in many different martial arts styles and has extensively developed the Youn Wha Ryu system to what it is today. Parts of it may look like hapkido, judo, kung fu or jiu-jitsu but it is Youn Wha Ryu plain and simple. The legend is just that, told to Grandmaster Han many many years ago - fact or fiction it doesn't matter, it is the art and the artists that count!

**********************************


The Youn Wha Ryu system of martial arts is shrouded in mystery and legend. Grandmaster Han himself has stated that the actual facts of Youn Wha Ryu's history are unclear. He relates the story told to him by his Youn Wha Ryu master, Sae Chong Wang.

  "Youn Wha was a legendary female martial artist living on a remote island in the Orient. She was a regognized master of alchemy and a highly skilled martial artist. Her beauty was as legendary as her skill level in the martial arts, and many highly proficient martial artists in the nations, knowing of her acclaimed beauty and skill, embarked on journeys to see her and train with her.
  To reach her, the martial artists had to defeat and avoid traps that could maim and kill the unwary. It was only the best and the most highly skilled martial art masters that weathered these pitfalls and were rewarded with the opportunity to view the beautiful Youn Wha. Unbeknownst to these masters, Youn Wha would use her skills in alchemy to prevent these high level martial artists from leaving her island, by drugging their food and drink. As she was the only one who had the daily antidote, for the drug, those who left her fortress did not survive the traps. In this way, she required the masters to write down their secrets so she could gain the knowledge of their systems and train in the techniques. It is from these writings that the system of Youn Wha was formed. The Youn Wha system contains all high level techniques from all systems and is unique in that no other system contains so many high level principles in one training method."

The Youn Wha Ryu, therefore, is an advanced system of fighting techniques from almost every available style of martial art. Due to its complexity, Grandmaster Han integrated Tae Kwon Do into his teaching system. 
Tae Kwon Do is considered a basis for Youn Wha Ryu and it can be learned by nearly anyone. Youn Wha Ryu, however, is extremely complex and requires several years of basic martial arts training before its concepts can be understood. Training in the Tae Kwon Do system that Grandmaster Han teaches enables his students to observe the weaknesses of their own personal styles and that of other martial art systems. Thus, students are well equipped to deal with any fighting method they may encounter.

With Youn Wha, the student is now able to develop a higher degree of timing, speed, balance, control (mental and physical), and confidence.. It has taken Grandmaster Han a lifetime to develop and perfect this system so that anyone and everyone may participate. He strongly believes that this system is the best and will continue to grow world wide.


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## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

i would love any more info you may have and appriciate your comments and i will certainly talk to my instructor about it. 

with respect,
painstain


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## rmclain (Jul 10, 2006)

You should contact his first instructor, Lee Kum Hong.  Probably you can get his e-mail address from the WTF web site.  I don't think his English is very good, so you may have to convert to Korean for him.

R. McLain


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## painstain (Jul 10, 2006)

where did you get this info from if i may ask, is it just word of mouth from other masters or did you look it up somewhere. i would like to read more about it and i will try to get the e-mail. one thing i would recomend to anyone though, if there is a younwha school in your area, check it out.

flying crane, so far the wing chun as i have trained has been some basic technique, not forms. i feel kind of stupid when i can't answer some of these questions mainly because this is the only system i've been in other than karate of some type when i was a child.  in regards to the chinese boxing, i will inquire about it with my instructor zach shaw. also you could look up or anyonone for that matter could look up master ceth jordan, master sherry jordan, master jeremy fox. i have trained under master ceth and grandmaster han a few times and had a blast. there instruction felt more traditional than i was used to. also we have a guest book at younwha.com if you have any questions i can't answer. i am reluctant just because i don't want to misrepresent the system.


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## painstain (Jul 12, 2006)

here is info that my instructor gave me about him

first instructor was master Son Bop Sa 6 yrs of training while a child,
this training was mainly strengthening and sensitizing the mind through Zen and other mental activities. his training consisted of focusing the mind and qigong or breathing exercises. 

second was Byung In Yun who taught as system called kong soo starting at age 13

his youn wha teacher was master Sae Chong Wang

he also studied hwarang do, kendo hapkido and various weapons. he has attained an 8th dan in hwarang do 7th dan in kendo 8th dan in hapkido 4th dan in judo

he also has a bachelors degree in law from Kon Kuk university

he was on the board of directors in the korean tkd federation in its early days

he served as a special tactics instructor for the korean intel agency
and also called to train the 7th US army infantry division from 1970 to 1972.

thats all the info i have on him. and have no reason up to this point to think any of it is false

with respect 
painstain


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## rmclain (Jul 12, 2006)

painstain said:
			
		

> here is info that my instructor gave me about him
> 
> 
> second was Byung In Yun who taught as system called kong soo starting at age 13
> ...


 
Hello Painstain,

The bio you listed looks the same as on the website.  Yoon Byung-in was long gone from S. Korea before Mr. Han began training.

If you really want to know about his background, contact Kum Hong Lee at the WTF or you can e-mail Grandmaster Kim Soo in Houston.  http://www.kimsookarate.com   Grandmaster Kim Soo is Kum Hong Lee's senior in Korea and knew Mr. Han in Korea.  

Otherwise, you may never get an answer about his background from this forum.  This is the reason why some martial artists from Korea put false history about themselves out there.  No one in America really knows or can check their background.  But, I've given you a lead if you really want to know.

R. McLain



R. McLain


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## Brother John (Jul 12, 2006)

painstain said:
			
		

> This is a story, a legend, a myth. Many people consider that arts that claim to be made up of many different arts should be avoided as they are not true martial arts.


 
I read this story.
Does the grandmaster actually put this story forward as THE sourse of the art?

If so, It'd be Very difficult to take it seriously at all.
TRUE: Seeing/feeling the techniques would make a huge difference perhaps....show some true quality one way or the other....but why the need for such a fabricatd story????
It just doesn't make sense to me.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 12, 2006)

.....by the way:
Where does "RED" come in, w/in the belt progression of your system?

Thank you

Your Brother
John


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## painstain (Jul 12, 2006)

brother john,
the belts go as this 
1 white 
2 yellows
2 greens
2 blues 
2 reds with a minimum of 6 months before testing for brown
1 brown minimum 6 months before testing for black. 
black your in line with every blackbelt  within 19 states

we do have manuals for every belt rank
also an encyclopedia of youn wha ryu

gm han immigrated to the us in 1976
moved to dalls tx in 1978 and lives and opperates there

he is present at every test i've witnessed and is a great motivator
i am under


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## YounWha (Dec 4, 2007)

rmclain said:


> Hello Painstain,
> 
> Yes, I know of your Grandmaster. You may have a great system, but Mr. Han made up some false stories about his background and teachers. He originally started training under Kum Hong Lee (Sec. General of W.T.F.) in South Korea.
> 
> ...


 
Hey all - new here....I hope to help to ask more questions to RMCLAIN if I could.  I have gathered information that I would like to possibly have confirmed through this website.

What we think happened (myself and few others) is that the original biographer mistranslated certain things in his interview.  He now still has limited english and is hard to understand sometimes.  We are working to find his certificates and records to make an accurate timeline of his life.

Here are two things I have found that needs to be verified:

GMH received 8th Dan (TKD) - 57th Promotion Test by Lee, Chong Woo
12/17/1972

GMH received Instructor Certificate from KTA - Un Yong Kim
11/30/1974

Any verify this?


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## QIGONG (Jan 2, 2008)

I am currently a student at a Youn Wha School.  I have also been a student of JKD/Kali and WTF style TKD for several years, so the incorporation of the Japanese/Chinese style arts are very apparent in the training, to me at least.

As in any system, there are variations in teaching when comparing school to school, instructor to instructor. The basis of the style seems very grounded in the striking skills of the Korean TKD, and of course the forms as well - however, there are adaptations where traditional techniques that for instance were developed for a basic combination (like a down block + punch) have been adapted into incorporating a sticky hands, mantis style trap, into a TKD style strike, into a sweep/throw reminiscent of Judo/Jiujitsu doctrine.  To me it's very streamlined and very effective, it's art as applied to sport translates just as well on the street.  Short of calling it a Hybrid style, it does take influence from hard and soft styles, ground fighting, trapping, striking and solitary meditation, even Yang style Tai Chi.   The weapons curriculum is diverse, from Filipino style stick fighting to traditional two-handed swordsmanship from Kendo.  It's diverse but it's structured, not thrown together, it is a style, some of which I believe including the origin, has been lost in translation.  The structure of training however does not appear to have suffered any error from this.  Comparatively for such a young organization, it is very well put together when compared to the "traditional" federations that have existed for years and years.

And this is nothing I've read in any brochure, just my personal observation from a years worth of training with them.  If the "Legend of Youn Wha" turned out to be a martial arts bedtime story, which obviously it sounds like to anyone reading it, it doesn't change the fact that Youn Wha is an effective well-rounded style, IMO at least.


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## woot (Jan 7, 2008)

The Grandmaster Han schools are all over in my area.  I too am from missouri.  I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I am going to be honest.  When people on this site begin talking about "McDojos", these are the schools that I think of and make my comments on.  You will never be allowed to compete in an open tournament, you must buy everything through your school and it must have the Han's logo on it, you can only compete with other students within the Han system, and you had to sign a really big contract.  These schools crop up in my area like starbucks on every corner.  You will be a black belt within a few months.

The instructors from these schools go around to our public schools doing demonstrations for the students and when I see them, I am embarassed for them.  It's terrible.  Maybe it's just these instructors, but they were deemed worthy to teach at these Grandmaster Han schools.  Whenever a student becomes a black belt they open up another school and let him teach there.  It's like a chain restaraunt and they keep promoting managers, like McDonalds.

I'm sorry, and it really doesn't matter to me where you want to learn your martail arts, but if you want some really good stuff.  Go check out Richard Osborns (Ozzie's Crew) there in Springfield.  They're really top notch.  I have competed against them, and they have some really good students.

The fact that you are asking these questions tells me that you already are a little skeptical of this school.


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## QIGONG (Jan 8, 2008)

woot said:


> The Grandmaster Han schools are all over in my area.  I too am from missouri.  I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I am going to be honest.  When people on this site begin talking about "McDojos", these are the schools that I think of and make my comments on.  You will never be allowed to compete in an open tournament, you must buy everything through your school and it must have the Han's logo on it, you can only compete with other students within the Han system, and you had to sign a really big contract.  These schools crop up in my area like starbucks on every corner.  You will be a black belt within a few months.
> 
> The instructors from these schools go around to our public schools doing demonstrations for the students and when I see them, I am embarassed for them.  It's terrible.  Maybe it's just these instructors, but they were deemed worthy to teach at these Grandmaster Han schools.  Whenever a student becomes a black belt they open up another school and let him teach there.  It's like a chain restaraunt and they keep promoting managers, like McDonalds...




I think since each school varies as far as rank and file, it's easy enough for a couple bad seeds to put a negative label on a system - we might not be a "Han's" Youn Wha school but I've met people in the association who have a lot to offer and are really stepped up as far as being knowledgeable and being willing to devote time and effort to further my training.  And I'm not a Han-Drone, I've studied different styles over the years and been to the worst of 'em... I wouldn't write off the whole organization/system because of that experience, although I do agree - first impressions are the most important!  However our school doesn't seem to operate at all in the fashion that you explained (the ultra-fast promotions/contracts etc) although like I said, I can't speak for every school and it's instructors.


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## younwha86 (Jul 31, 2008)

woot said:


> The Grandmaster Han schools are all over in my area.  I too am from missouri.  I do not mean to be disrespectful, but I am going to be honest.  When people on this site begin talking about "McDojos", these are the schools that I think of and make my comments on.  You will never be allowed to compete in an open tournament, you must buy everything through your school and it must have the Han's logo on it, you can only compete with other students within the Han system, and you had to sign a really big contract.  These schools crop up in my area like starbucks on every corner.  You will be a black belt within a few months.
> 
> The instructors from these schools go around to our public schools doing demonstrations for the students and when I see them, I am embarassed for them.  It's terrible.  Maybe it's just these instructors, but they were deemed worthy to teach at these Grandmaster Han schools.  Whenever a student becomes a black belt they open up another school and let him teach there.  It's like a chain restaraunt and they keep promoting managers, like McDonalds.
> 
> ...




How about we get a few things straight. 

The first tournament I competed in was an open tournament.  Show Me State Games.  A tournament with completely different sparring rules than how we spar.  We spar heavy contact, this tournament was ITF style touch fighting.  So maybe you can explain to me where you got the idea that we're not allowed to compete in open tournaments other than within our association?

"you must buy everything through your school and it must have the Han's logo on it"
--- my gloves that I use for sparring are UFC training gloves.  As the gloves we use are basically identical to MMA style small oz. gloves.  I use them for training, testing, and tournaments.  So much for that claim

"you can only compete with other students within the Han system"
---- two weeks ago we cross trained with an ITF school for sparring.  lol again, you lose.


"and you had to sign a really big contract"
----- i signed a one page paper for insurance purposes.

I have been training for 16 months now, and I'm a red belt.  Considering I hold rank of brown belt with a black stripe in Chung Do Kwan and 2 years of kickboxing experience I moved up in rank faster than everyone in my division, passing a few people.  Where's my black belt in a couple months?

People get their black belts and start teaching... uh yeah?  Isn't that the purpose to martial arts?  You train your mind and body, and part of your training is teaching.  

Now for the sake of my enjoyment "Ozzies crew"  let's compare shall we?

http://www.freewebs.com/ozziescrew/dads picture.JPG
that's "Grandmaster Ozzie"

http://www.younwha-az.com/sitebuilder/images/swordrev22-232x283_1_-249x311.jpg
Grandmaster Han

take your pick.


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## thetruth (Jul 31, 2008)

painstain said:


> The Youn Wha Ryu system of martial arts is shrouded in mystery and legend. Grandmaster Han himself has stated that the actual facts of Youn Wha Ryu's history are unclear. He relates the story told to him by his Youn Wha Ryu master, Sae Chong Wang.
> 
> "Youn Wha was a legendary female martial artist living on a remote island in the Orient. She was a regognized master of alchemy and a highly skilled martial artist. Her beauty was as legendary as her skill level in the martial arts, and many highly proficient martial artists in the nations, knowing of her acclaimed beauty and skill, embarked on journeys to see her and train with her.
> To reach her, the martial artists had to defeat and avoid traps that could maim and kill the unwary. It was only the best and the most highly skilled martial art masters that weathered these pitfalls and were rewarded with the opportunity to view the beautiful Youn Wha. Unbeknownst to these masters, Youn Wha would use her skills in alchemy to prevent these high level martial artists from leaving her island, by drugging their food and drink. As she was the only one who had the daily antidote, for the drug, those who left her fortress did not survive the traps. In this way, she required the masters to write down their secrets so she could gain the knowledge of their systems and train in the techniques. It is from these writings that the system of Youn Wha was formed. The Youn Wha system contains all high level techniques from all systems and is unique in that no other system contains so many high level principles in one training method."
> ...


Is this believable to you??? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!   The fact that it makes claims about containing techniques from ALL martial arts just tells me it is a McDojo who is just trying to suck people in and take their money.    What a ridiculous thing to claim.

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 31, 2008)

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## younwha86 (Jul 31, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Is this believable to you??? GIVE ME A BREAK!!!!!   The fact that it makes claims about containing techniques from ALL martial arts just tells me it is a McDojo who is just trying to suck people in and take their money.    What a ridiculous thing to claim.
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:




Show me a traditional martial art today that does not contain techniques from various martial arts.  It's quite clear that the word all means general popular martial arts, wushu, shotokan, JJJ, Judo, etc...


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## YounWha (Sep 30, 2008)

I am a Youn Wha instructor that has trained in capoeira and USTF before training in Youn Wha.  You need to not take everything you read so literal people.  Go to a class - try it out - and then form your opinion - plain and simple.  Again just to recap some false truths here:

1) We do NOT have contracts
2) We can compete in open tournaments
3) We can buy gear from outside the organization (I have)


I like training in this system because it's a true training art AND we do most of our advertisement by word of mouth.  We also want to bring martial arts to towns and cities that are generally smaller because big "chain" martial art
schools won't go near the small towns and thats not fair.
Also - 90% of our instructors in my area have a full time job OUTSIDE
of teaching martial arts.  Our instructors are not in it for the money because teaching martial arts will NOT pay the bills.  Before I started teaching I knew that.  I wanted to teach, I wanted to pass along knowledge...and that is what is expected - you do not become greedy in your training - you pass along your knowledge in some way.

Did you ever think that schools are opening up (in small towns) because it may be a GOOD system?  Small towns generally can smell fraud coming a mile away and I think having schools in small communities allow a closer bond to your students.  

We have flaws - but everyone does.  This system is not for everyone - we know that.  But don't take what you "translate" from just reading on the internet and go meet some of these people.

You want to get more info - I can give you my email address and I will try to answer any questions.  BTW - I have been training in this style for 5 years.


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## allenjp (Sep 30, 2008)

Brown belt in 16 mos. huh? Sounds a little quick to me...combine that with that ridiculous story about the origin, and well, I'm not so sure but I think I smell some salmon in the oven.

BTW an alchemist is someone who tries to turn common metals into Gold or Silver. Not someone who makes potions and such. They can't even get their false stories right.


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## YounWha (Oct 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Brown belt in 16 mos. huh? Sounds a little quick to me...combine that with that ridiculous story about the origin, and well, I'm not so sure but I think I smell some salmon in the oven.
> 
> BTW an alchemist is someone who tries to turn common metals into Gold or Silver. Not someone who makes potions and such. They can't even get their false stories right.


 
Which story of origin are you talking about?  GM Han or of Youn Wha?
If it's about Youn Wha - yeah it's a story, a legend, no one said it was a real event.  Again don't be too literal in your reading.

But again any Joe Blow can talk smack about a martial art and never step inside a school.  I say don't say anything and keep your mouth shut (too people in general - not focusing on one person here) until you take some classes.

It's like ATA - I know the people that teach in ATA.  I have spoken with higher ups in their organization.  I dated an instructor in ATA.  I have seen their contracts.  And I can say that organization is in it for the money as of right now.  You know why - cause instructors of schools get commission on X number of students they have and X number of people they test.  Now this is in Arkansas - the Headquaters of ATA.
Taken into all this is NOT saying their instructors are bad people in any way.  Just the organization in general is just bad.


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## allenjp (Oct 1, 2008)

Fair enough...I would check out one of the schools, but I don't think there are any in Socal. But I make no apollogies for what I said. You have to understand the kind of patent BS that we get around here. And with stories of mystical alchemist princesses tricking all of the world's MA masters into giving up their secrets, well...you get the point.


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## YounWha (Oct 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Fair enough...I would check out one of the schools, but I don't think there are any in Socal. But I make no apollogies for what I said. You have to understand the kind of patent BS that we get around here. And with stories of mystical alchemist princesses tricking all of the world's MA masters into giving up their secrets, well...you get the point.


 
I do understand -
Remember that word, written or spoke, correct or incorrect, has collapsed
nations and built empires.  I just get heated up with incorrect information is passed from non-reliable people that have nothing to do with the subject.  And yet many people will listen to that one person...craziness.

There is a school out in California - it was started by a student that trained in Arkansas (I know her personally).  I think it's around Berkeley.


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## jks9199 (Oct 1, 2008)

Why should it be necessary to invent such a fantastic tale?

I know the origins of my style; I know when and why it went through several changes and restructuring events.  While parts are descended from a temple-style martial art used by monks, other parts were developed in particular regions by the people living and defending themselves there.  All of this was later combined and systematized into the modern style, including influences from the West, like boxing and wrestling.  No fancy stories, no pipe dreams of stolen techniques.

If someone feels a need to come up with that sort of thing, I've got to wonder why.  Why not simply say "I studied X-do, Y-jitsu, and Z-tao, and used my own experience to combine them into what I teach today."  I may question whether you really needed to combine them or whether your combination is as valid as you think -- but it's an honest statement.


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 1, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Brown belt in 16 mos. huh? Sounds a little quick to me...combine that with that ridiculous story about the origin, and well, I'm not so sure but I think I smell some salmon in the oven.
> 
> BTW an alchemist is someone who tries to turn common metals into Gold or Silver. Not someone who makes potions and such. They can't even get their false stories right.


 

actually that's not true about the alchemy thing.


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## YounWha (Oct 1, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Why should it be necessary to invent such a fantastic tale?
> 
> If someone feels a need to come up with that sort of thing, I've got to wonder why. Why not simply say "I studied X-do, Y-jitsu, and Z-tao, and used my own experience to combine them into what I teach today." I may question whether you really needed to combine them or whether your combination is as valid as you think -- but it's an honest statement.


 
GM Han did not invent the story.  It was told to him by one of his instructors.  Again - it's a story.  It's kind of like the bed time stories parents tell their kids.  Anyway - talking about this is beating a dead horse.  I don't repeat this story to my students but maybe once and I tell them that it's a "story- not true - a legend - a myth".

Our training is not mystical or holy or whatever.  Maybe the misconception is that we are like the Dim Mak guys that say they can hit you and kill you with one tap of the finger.

We train like many Korean styles train.  We practice judo techniques and hapkido techniques.  We also practice chinese style punching drills.  No smoke and mirrors - no mystical hokey pokey.

Many people seem to be dancing around what they read and "interpret" over the internet.  And think about how people reacted when TKD first came to the United States...about how people "said" it was not effective and it looked stupid and many other things I am sure.  But it took time to establish and for people to see it for what it truly was.  We are such hipocrits when it comes to new things being introduced.

All in all I will continue to train/teach and we will continue to grow IF we stay true to ourselves and our style.  One day when we are "established" and the truth is revealed then that may make some of you at ease.  But there will still be those who say this or that online.  But saying anything online is not hurting the growth of this organization.


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## YounWha (Oct 1, 2008)

Josh Oakley said:


> actually that's not true about the alchemy thing.


 
Agreed -
Look up a defnition of alchemy
_._ 

A medieval chemical philosophy having as its asserted aims the transmutation of base metals into gold, the discovery of the panacea, and the preparation of the elixir of longevity.
A seemingly magical power or process of transmuting: _He wondered by what alchemy it was changed, so that what sickened him one hour, maddened him with hunger the next_ (Marjorie K. Rawlings).
The elixir of longevity is a "potion".


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## Josh Oakley (Oct 1, 2008)

Chinese Alchemists focused more on medicines. Europeans focused on lead turning into gold. BOTH, whoever, had their hands in many things: tincturesm potions, glassworks, extracts, essences, and liquors. Especially liquors.


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## KenpoTex (Oct 2, 2008)

someone pass the popcorn...this is better than TV


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## Brian S (Oct 2, 2008)

YounWha said:


> Which story of origin are you talking about? GM Han or of Youn Wha?
> If it's about Youn Wha - yeah it's a story, a legend, no one said it was a real event. Again don't be too literal in your reading.
> 
> But again any Joe Blow can talk smack about a martial art and never step inside a school. I say don't say anything and keep your mouth shut (too people in general - not focusing on one person here) until you take some classes.
> ...


 
 I'm in Rogers,AR. Where are you located? I'd like to come by your school and check it out!


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## shesulsa (Oct 2, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> someone pass the popcorn...this is better than TV



You need to get out of the weapons forum a little more often. 

opcorn:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Oct 2, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Why should it be necessary to invent such a fantastic tale?
> 
> I know the origins of my style; I know when and why it went through several changes and restructuring events. While parts are descended from a temple-style martial art used by monks, other parts were developed in particular regions by the people living and defending themselves there. All of this was later combined and systematized into the modern style, including influences from the West, like boxing and wrestling. No fancy stories, no pipe dreams of stolen techniques.
> 
> If someone feels a need to come up with that sort of thing, I've got to wonder why. Why not simply say "I studied X-do, Y-jitsu, and Z-tao, and used my own experience to combine them into what I teach today." I may question whether you really needed to combine them or whether your combination is as valid as you think -- but it's an honest statement.


Sadly, fabricated history is also seen in several other martial arts.  As a TKD practitioner, I can't really throw stones, as the KKW claims on their site that taekwondo is 2000 years old, somehow forgetting about the shotokan ranks that taekwondo's founders had.

The style does sound interesting, and if any schools pop up in my area, I'll definitely go look just to see what its about.

The origin story would make the basis of a kickin' martial arts movie.  And I am not in any way being flipant or sarcastic in saying that.

Daniel


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## KenpoTex (Oct 3, 2008)

shesulsa said:


> You need to get out of the weapons forum a little more often.
> 
> opcorn:



someone left the door to my cage open...


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## hogstooth (Oct 9, 2008)

Never heard of the art. Who was his Kendo teacher? Who was his Judo teacher? What organization was he promoted in? Don't know anything about this art or any other Korean art. I have trained in Okinawan and Japanese arts my whole life which is why I am interested in his Kendo and Judo rankings.


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## AMP-RYU (Nov 19, 2008)

Listen this is rediculous! I have trained in GMHMA since 1995 and the Legend of Youn Wha gives students something to believe in! Everyone needs something and this is what we have. Not one person here can actually prove that this is actually untrue! I wasnt there and no one else here was! This is a tradition that has been passed from instructor to student for years and for anyone here to hate on it ,all I have to say is ,your not true martial artist! A true Martial artist respects other styles and don't tear on one for their history! Youn Wha is not an association of McDojos. It is just a great system and for that reason they do not fail. If any other school is better why don't they open other schools? Because of fear their style is not superior enough to make it! I would be happy to put our students against any students in the country, and I think we would prevail! I believe in our system and always will. The reason why you don't see world chamionship titles is because we don't train to fight for sport we train not to fight and then tournaments are for fun! I believe you should stay away from schools where the instructors are trying to lure students in by bragging about all of the awards and championships they have, many are just small local tourny wins and have no credibility. Training someone to fight only supports violence and not protection, Im not saying we don't teach our students to fight because we do, but to protect themselves incase of danger. Not to go to school and brag about what they know and end up getting stabbed!  Sorry if I have offended anyone here but I think I had to say this!

Thank You Very Much,
Jimmy Mann
2nd Dan Black Belt WYWRA/GMHMA


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## Cirdan (Nov 19, 2008)

YounWhaMann said:


> (...) all I have to say is ,your not true martial artist! A true Martial artist respects other styles and don't tear on one for their history!





YounWhaMann said:


> If any other school is better why don't they open other schools? Because of fear their style is not superior enough to make it!


 
Perhaps a little self reflection is in order...


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## AMP-RYU (Nov 19, 2008)

Well I sure apprieciate the reply, even though you pieced together two seperate points. The first had to do with ripping on a styles history, the second is my rebuddle to youn wha being a mcdojo! Nice try but next time don't piece my words together! Thank You


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## Cirdan (Nov 20, 2008)

Hmm.. blind as a bat by choise. Well good luck with the cult.


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## Brian S (Nov 20, 2008)

lol


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## AMP-RYU (Nov 20, 2008)

Cirdan its actually spelled "Choice"....what cult are you talking about? Your prolly not even a martial artist are you?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 20, 2008)

Jimmy,

I did not quote the things you said regarding history because the quality of a martial art is not affected by a mythical/legendary origin story, be it true or not.  And having a soft spot for the mythical and the legendary, I am not inclined to be critical.  Besides, the way that KKW revises recent history is, to me, far more agregious than having a legendary origin story.



YounWhaMann said:


> Youn Wha is not an association of McDojos. It is just a great system and for that reason they do not fail. If any other school is better why don't they open other schools? Because of fear their style is not superior enough to make it!


There are plenty of systems with multiple schools all over the US.  I can name at least five in my local area alone, our own being one of them.  On a larger scale, perhaps you are unfamiliar with Jhoon Rhee, who has more schools under a single man's name than anyone else in the world.  By your logic, taekwondo; his method in particular, is superior to all other arts (Frankly, I don't believe than any art is inherently superior to any other).    Before you go making such an uninformed statement, check your facts.  

Beside, the reason that a master can open multiple successful locations has nothing to do with the quality of the style and everything to do with the ability of his or her ability to manage and operate a successful business.  A mediocre martial artist with a solid background in business and marketing will nearly always be more successful than a truly fantastic martial artist with weak business skills.



YounWhaMann said:


> I would be happy to put our students against any students in the country, and I think we would prevail! I believe in our system and always will.


You believe in your system and the quality of teaching that you and your students receive.  That is good.  But don't be arrogant and naive.  You believe that your students will prevail against _any students in the country_.  That is a very tall order.  Arrogant because you have no real foundation besides confidence in your own system upon which to base this statement.  Naive because to "put [your] students against any students in the country" you need to either have a street fight, which you claim you don't train your students to engage in, or a rule set agreed upon by both competing teams.  If you issue the challenge, then to back up that claim, your students would be competing under quite a few sparring rule sets with which they will be unfamiliar with or unaccustomed to competing under.  No matter how good you are, if you're stuck in someone else's rule set, you're at a very serious disadvantage.



YounWhaMann said:


> The reason why you don't see world chamionship titles is because we don't train to fight for sport we train not to fight and then tournaments are for fun! I believe you should stay away from schools where the instructors are trying to lure students in by bragging about all of the awards and championships they have, many are just small local tourny wins and have no credibility.


And you base this statement on what?  Those tournaments have credibility as local tournaments within a given style.  If a school has made the achievements then it is well within their rights to mention them in their literature or to potential students.  And since your system has multiple schools, you're certainly luring students in with something as well.  Again, nothing wrong with that, but don't criticize others for making use of their credentials and achievements to bring in students when you do the exact same thing; you use whatever credentials and achievements of your school and style in order to market to customers.



YounWhaMann said:


> Training someone to fight only supports violence and not protection, Im not saying we don't teach our students to fight because we do, but to protect themselves incase of danger. Not to go to school and brag about what they know and end up getting stabbed!


First, saying that teaching people tofight only supports violence and not protection and then saying that you teach your students to fight, but that you somehow are completely expiated from your first statement is the sort of nonsense that polititians do to justify voting in a way counter to their stated platforms.

Also, no schools teach their students to fight so that they can go to school and brag.  I would gather that there are some schools that teach in the idiom of Cobra Kai of the Karate Kid movies, but I've never seen one.  Every school that I have been associated with or have any contact with strongly urges against such things, and I've been at it for over 30 years.  Every master interviewed in every martial arts trade magazine will say that they teach their students to protect themselves, not to be bragging bullies.  So your position is hardly unique.



YounWhaMann said:


> Sorry if I have offended anyone here but I think I had to say this!


I'm not offended, and I do not mean any offense to you.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 20, 2008)

YounWhaMann said:


> Cirdan its actually spelled "Choice"....what cult are you talking about? Your prolly not even a martial artist are you?


You base this assumption regarding Cirdan on what? 

Daniel


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## Cirdan (Nov 20, 2008)

YounWhaMann said:


> Your prolly not even a martial artist are you?


 
How _DARE_ you question my status as a Martial Artist(TM)? The world will not accept this cowardly insult. I will have you know I received the full secrets of the ultimate system, KuchiBushi-Do, from the Spirit of the Celestial Dragon himself back when I meditated twenty years in the outhouse with only one roll of toilet paper!

Seriously, grow up.


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## AMP-RYU (Nov 20, 2008)

You know what your all childish, i basically came on here to defend my system which I should never have had to do. Secondly What is being said is that our system is a mcdojo system which basically takes money for ranks with crappy training, this is not true to our style. You can say Jhoon Rhee has more schools under his name yes this is true, because his name is basically as franchise. He doesnt personally teach the instructors that teach his students. Does he personaly take time out and train his instructors...maybe some not all. Does he over see the testing of all his students.....prolly not. I'm not saying he or his system is bad but its not ran the same way. You dog on a style because they are a mcdojo, because they have alot of schools, that doesnt make a school a mcdojo. A Mcdojo is a school that forces students into thousands of dollars worth of contracts to do something, the students don't even know they like. Then when the students quit because its not for them or they feel the instruction in not superior, they sue them for thousands of dollars. I have had personal experience with this, having many students come to my school after being sued. The school that Im refering to happened to one that used Jhoon Rhee's name. They are now out of business. You cant assume a school is a mcdojo because they have alot of schools. Most of our instructors started in the same place learning from one instructor and then moved out of town and opened their own school. Everyother month all the students gather in one place for a testing, in which Grand Master Han will come and test his students. I what I said about our students facing any other school in the country, I meant I think our training is just as good if not better than any other training in the country, am I saying it is perfact....no it can always be improved, and always is! The people who run our system are some of the best in the country and I will always believe in them. Another thing is that championships don't make a martial artists and I don't like the reputation that martial arts schools get because of this.  
Cirdan I'm going to question this because I have never seen a REAL MARTIAL ARTIST cut down another style or system like your doing mine...you may know the sport but until you learn there is more to martial arts than hard talk and battle, than you'll never be a true martial artist. I mean you called my style a CULT"???? Whats that about?
Thank you and I hope we can act like adults from now on...thank you.


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## Lisa (Nov 20, 2008)

*Attention All Users:

Lets be polite and respectful shall we?  Use the ignore button if you need to.

Thanks.

Lisa Deneka
MT Assistant Admin.
*


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## AMP-RYU (Nov 20, 2008)

Thank you lisa and i apologgize for everyone in this thread.


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## Cirdan (Nov 21, 2008)

YWM, what makes you think I have _any_ interest in the sport side of the arts? I don`t want you or anyone else calling me a "REAL MARTIAL ARTIST" either, it would be bloody embarrasing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Nov 21, 2008)

YounWhaMann said:


> You know what your all childish, i basically came on here to defend my system which I should never have had to do. Secondly What is being said is that our system is a mcdojo system which basically takes money for ranks with crappy training, this is not true to our style. .


I've made no statements to this effect.  Yes, you have every right to defend your school/system, and I do respect you for doing so.  But in doing so you have made some very unfounded statements.



YounWhaMann said:


> You can say Jhoon Rhee has more schools under his name yes this is true, because his name is basically as franchise. He doesnt personally teach the instructors that teach his students. Does he personaly take time out and train his instructors...maybe some not all. Does he over see the testing of all his students.....prolly not. I'm not saying he or his system is bad but its not ran the same way.


Early on, he did, but he has way too many schools to put in a personal presence in each one at this point.  My point in bringing him up was that he has multiple schools.  Your comment implied that having multiple schools is a testament to the effectiveness of the system, in which case the presence, or lack there of, of a GM shouldn't make a difference anyway, assuming that masters didn't merely purchase their rank (an all too common occurance in many organizations).



YounWhaMann said:


> You dog on a style because they are a mcdojo, because they have alot of schools, that doesnt make a school a mcdojo.


 
I have not dogged on any style, including this one.  Read my previous responses on this thread and I guarantee that you'll find that I've been very polite in my comments on the style.  

If this is not directed to me, then please respond to them specifically.  I have not now, nor ever on this board, called any school or system a McDojo by name or implication.  It is not only inappropriate, but libelous so to do.  And in any case, I've never been to your school, so I have no basis upon which to comment.



YounWhaMann said:


> A Mcdojo is a school that forces students into thousands of dollars worth of contracts to do something, the students don't even know they like. Then when the students quit because its not for them or they feel the instruction in not superior, they sue them for thousands of dollars. I have had personal experience with this, having many students come to my school after being sued.


Some McDojos are like this.  Others are just schools set up by well meaning people who may or may not be competent using a profitable business model and generally having a greater focus on the business side than on the MA side.



YounWhaMann said:


> The school that Im refering to happened to one that used Jhoon Rhee's name. They are now out of business. You cant assume a school is a mcdojo because they have alot of schools.


100% agree.  I never assume anything about another school.



YounWhaMann said:


> Most of our instructors started in the same place learning from one instructor and then moved out of town and opened their own school. Everyother month all the students gather in one place for a testing, in which Grand Master Han will come and test his students.


 
There are a number of school in our area that work this way, ours being one of them.



YounWhaMann said:


> I what I said about our students facing any other school in the country, I meant I think our training is just as good if not better than any other training in the country, am I saying it is perfact....no it can always be improved, and always is!  The people who run our system are some of the best in the country and I will always believe in them.


Okay, if this is what you meant, then this is what you should have said.  I'm glad that you are proud of and apparently well served in the training you receive and, again, I respect you for promoting your school.  But your original statement didn't read this way.



YounWhaMann said:


> Another thing is that championships don't make a martial artists and I don't like the reputation that martial arts schools get because of this.


Agree and disagree: 100% agree that championships don't make a martial artist.  

But I disagree regarding regarding championships negatively impacting the reputation of martial arts schools in general.  Championships don't sully martial arts schools one bit.  Unethical business practices, egotism, poor instruction, and bait & switch tactics do, all of which, sadly, are not uncommon. 

The remainder of your post was addressed to Cirdan, so I did not quote it.

The only other thing that I have to say to you, Jimmy, is this:  While I can appreciate that you are defending your school and system, you don't need to respond as if your back is up against the wall.  Its just an internet forum.  Some people here you will get on well with, and others not.  Dialogue with the ones you get on well with and give due respect and politeness to those you don't and leave them be beyond that.

Daniel


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## davedaylight (Dec 19, 2008)

Hello, sorry to drag this thread back after a month, but as someone had posted a link to it in another thread I figured I might as well chime in here.

I have been training in Grandmaster Han's Youn Wha Ryu for the past 17 months. I have trained in 3 different martial arts organizations before this, and I can honestly say that it is the best that I have encountered so far. The instructors that I have met have all been great, I have not met anyone who is in it for the money or anything like that--for instance my sister paid for a month, but ended up hurting her knee and wasn't able to continue training, my instructor let her come back with a full month paid for the month she missed. They don't do contracts, there is a form you have to fill out--it's a liability form for insurance purposes. 

Every testing has a Master (5th Dan & up) present to grade the testing, Grandmaster Han isn't able to be at every testing, but he does still personally go and grade testings--we're hoping to be able to invite him out here to Phoenix for a testing next year. We test every 2 months, but that doesn't mean that you get to test every 2 months, you don't test until your instructor says you're ready. I've been held up before, and I've met several others who weren't allowed to test because they weren't ready.

For me this was exactly the type of school I was looking for, a hard training school that has good sharp technique (while searching for a school I had visited a couple that had very sloppy technique), that emphasizes character and was more self defense oriented than sport oriented (nothing wrong with sport oriented schools, just wasn't what I was looking for).

I had started out training in St. Louis, MO, and then ended up moving here to Phoenix, AZ and was delighted to find that a married couple had moved here from Master Jeremy's school in Arkansas and were teaching out here. It was very nice to be able to continue my training in the same organization and not have to try to find a new one. Which is another thing I like about this organization, it's the same training, they train just as hard as we did back in St. Louis and it's the same teaching.

Here's a link to video of Master Zach Shaw (5th Dan) that one of his students made of him:
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=zach+shaw+fist+of+legend&emb=0&aq=f#
The music in this video might not be appropriate for some offices or children--even though I don't believe there's any foul language, basically just saying the music might not be for everyone.

This is footage from when he was a 4th Dan, in the tournament sparring he's the one in the black chest gear.


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## davedaylight (Dec 19, 2008)

Brian S said:


> I'm in Rogers,AR. Where are you located? I'd like to come by your school and check it out!



As I'm not from Arkansas I'm not sure which school is closest to you, but here's the link to the Arkansas Division website:
http://www.ark-younwha.com/


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## davedaylight (Dec 19, 2008)

allenjp said:


> Fair enough...I would check out one of the schools, but I don't think there are any in Socal. But I make no apollogies for what I said. You have to understand the kind of patent BS that we get around here. And with stories of mystical alchemist princesses tricking all of the world's MA masters into giving up their secrets, well...you get the point.



Ya, doesn't look like there's one in the San Diego area yet, looks like Edwards AFB, Costa Mesa, Bakersfield and Anaheim at the moment.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 20, 2008)

davedaylight said:


> Hello, sorry to drag this thread back after a month, but as someone had posted a link to it in another thread I figured I might as well chime in here.


Twas I who posted said link Given how upset Youn Hwa Man was about people degrading his school by calling it a McDojo, I found it rather hypocritical of him to pick out some California taekwondo dojang, seemingly at random, then post a link to their website on the taekwondo section and label them as the "Definition of a McDojo." He provided no particular reason for his picking them out and was asked several times through the course of eight pages by several people (yourself included) to explain why, but has yet to do so.

I posted the link to this thread for that reason. Hey, maybe he trained there and has some insight as to why he labeled them so, but he never elaborated.  And even if his assertion is correct, there is no reason to badmouth the school on the web.  In all, I thought the thread was in poor taste. I will say that is sparked a lot of good conversation, however.

In any case, I watched the video and it was pretty good, though I didn't see anything particularly unusual. The sparring looked like WTF sparring, and while there were more hand techniques than I normally see in WTF, they were all within WTF rules. The sequences in the dojang looked like taekwondo and the first form that Master Shaw performed was Koryo. Is your school a KKW school or do you simply use the taegeuk forms? 

Daniel


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 20, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Twas I who posted said link Given how upset Youn Hwa Man was about people degrading his school by calling it a McDojo, I found it rather hypocritical of him to pick out some California taekwondo dojang, seemingly at random, then post a link to their website on the taekwondo section and label them as the "Definition of a McDojo." He provided no particular reason for his picking them out and was asked several times through the course of eight pages by several people (yourself included) to explain why, but has yet to do so.
> 
> I posted the link to this thread for that reason. Hey, maybe he trained there and has some insight as to why he labeled them so, but he never elaborated. And even if his assertion is correct, there is no reason to badmouth the school on the web. In all, I thought the thread was in poor taste. I will say that is sparked a lot of good conversation, however.
> 
> ...


 
Ok let me set this straight. For one the school I posted a link to is in saint louis missouri not in california! Second I have very valid points to why their school is a mcdojo. Most of...not all but most of their instructors have less than 2 years of total training time. They have masters with less than 3 years of traing time. They bait their students in with awesome deals... trial period $25.99 3 weeks and free uniform, than when their students decide to quit because the training is aweful they sue them for the remainder of their contract, in upwards of $2000. They learn through green belt what we teach at white belt. Monthly belt testing even though the student is not ready??? And when the parents say no they threaten with their contract! Ive competed against their black belts on several occasions and they don't have the training they should! Koryo form at black belt?....no this should be a red belt form! Maybe my outlook is different but when a parenet pulls their child from a tourny because she doesnt think her student is good enough to compete with the other schools....this makes me wonder! I personally know several of their former instructors and they are happier now teaching on their own! I'm not trying to offend anyone I was just pionting out the points that if you think my association is a Mcdojo then you should check out this school! Sorry if I offended anyone, I appologize!:asian:


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## Tez3 (Dec 20, 2008)

opcorn:


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## davedaylight (Dec 20, 2008)

We use forms from many different styles from what I understand, here's the link to our forms requirements:
http://www.younwha.com/Forms.html

And as you can see from that page we do forms from several different styles, all of the pre-black belt forms are TKD, which makes sense because the base of our system is TKD. This was posted earlier in the thread:

"The Youn Wha Ryu, therefore, is an advanced system of fighting techniques from almost every available style of martial art. Due to its complexity, Grandmaster Han integrated Tae Kwon Do into his teaching system. 
Tae Kwon Do is considered a basis for Youn Wha Ryu and it can be learned by nearly anyone. Youn Wha Ryu, however, is extremely complex and requires several years of basic martial arts training before its concepts can be understood. Training in the Tae Kwon Do system that Grandmaster Han teaches enables his students to observe the weaknesses of their own personal styles and that of other martial art systems. Thus, students are well equipped to deal with any fighting method they may encounter."

 I think some people got thrown off of the rest of that post because of the "legend" of Youn Wha--which as others have stated it's just a legend, like the start of Kung Fu Panda "Legend tells of a legendary warrior, who's fighting was the stuff of LEGEND!". Who knows there might be some truth to it, or it might just be a bedtime story.

As I was saying a lot of our pre-black belt technique is TKD, we do include some other training--like we do sticky hands, fan blocks and I think it's wing chung blocks? (the blocks with the top & bottom of the wrist). We also do some training with weapons and different martial arts styles: Judo, Hapkido, Tai Chi, etc--usually with more specialized classes/seminars.

I believe currently we have no connection with KKW, although I know Grandmaster Han had some connections with TKD in it's early days and there might be a connection to KKW then, but I'm not an authority on Grandmaster Han's bio. From what I understand there might've been some bad interpretation on his bio when it was done back in the 80's, and the Masters are researching what they can and are going to meet with him in the near future. Grandmaster Han is over 70 and while in great shape they want to get his history well documented for further generations.

Our sparring rules are pretty simple:

No kicks to the face
No hand attacks to the head/face
You can kick to the sides & back of the head, with control
Punches and kicks to the front & sides of the chest protector
No kicks/punches below the belt
In order to score a point your kick/punch must either jar the opponent or move him back

My instructor here was telling me of this tournament they had gone to earlier this year, and there were a couple female black belts that were going to spar. One of them suggested that since it was just them fighting that they not use sparring gear, the other one said "if you're fighting me, you WANT to wear your gear" and she ended up knocking the other girls headgear off. Just mentioned that to say we fight hard, lol, for it to count as a point it's got to be a good hard solid kick/punch.


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 20, 2008)

No we have no affiliation with the KKW at all.:asian:


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 21, 2008)

bob0812 said:


> Ok let me set this straight. For one the school I posted a link to is in saint louis missouri not in california! Second I have very valid points to why their school is a mcdojo. Most of...not all but most of their instructors have less than 2 years of total training time. They have masters with less than 3 years of traing time. They bait their students in with awesome deals... trial period $25.99 3 weeks and free uniform, than when their students decide to quit because the training is aweful they sue them for the remainder of their contract, in upwards of $2000. They learn through green belt what we teach at white belt. Monthly belt testing even though the student is not ready??? And when the parents say no they threaten with their contract! Ive competed against their black belts on several occasions and they don't have the training they should! Koryo form at black belt?....no this should be a red belt form! Maybe my outlook is different but when a parenet pulls their child from a tourny because she doesnt think her student is good enough to compete with the other schools....this makes me wonder! I personally know several of their former instructors and they are happier now teaching on their own! I'm not trying to offend anyone I was just pionting out the points that if you think my association is a Mcdojo then you should check out this school! Sorry if I offended anyone, I appologize!:asian:


I assume that you are the martial artist formerly known as 'Youn Hwa Mann'? T'would seem that I've sparked a round of name changes

In any case, no offense was taken by me.  Just keep in mind that others on this thread have made similar assertions regarding _your_ school, assertions which you have refuted.  You were very upset, as I would have been if people made such assertions regarding my school and GM.  Keep in mind that just as several students from your system have jumped up to defend when people got on MT and badmouthed GM Han, there are certainly people at that Saint Louis school (my apologies; not sure why I thought it was in CA) who would have stellar things to say about that school.  

I'm certainly not refuting your assessment; I've never visited the school, just as I have never visited yours.  To say that there is a school in your area that is the very definition of a McDojo, then state what you stated above, and only talk about the name of the school via PM would have been better.  

I was not the only one on that thread that looked the site over and didn't see anything that would have immediately set it apart as a McDojo.  As another observed, it looked like a typical TKD school.  Eight pages went by without any clarification from you as to why you considered it to be a poor school.  I appreciate that you shared the reasoning for this, albeit on a different thread.  At least now I know why you think of them as you do.

Lastly, the level of anger that you exhibited earlier on this thread when such assertions were made regarding your school is such that you should be careful about doing so to other schools, particularly without expressing any real reason for doing so.  

Best wishes,

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 21, 2008)

davedaylight said:


> I think some people got thrown off of the rest of that post because of the "legend" of Youn Wha--which as others have stated it's just a legend, like the start of Kung Fu Panda "Legend tells of a legendary warrior, who's fighting was the stuff of LEGEND!". Who knows there might be some truth to it, or it might just be a bedtime story.


I wasn't thrown off by it.  Actually, I think the legend is kind of cool. 



davedaylight said:


> Our sparring rules are pretty simple:
> 
> No kicks to the face
> No hand attacks to the head/face
> ...


Pretty much the same as WTF, except that you can't kick to the face.  That always puzzled me in WTF that they allow kicks to the face, which is unguarded, but no punches to anywhere on the head, which is protected by the hogu.

Daniel


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 22, 2008)

Koryo is an ITF 1st Dan form if I am not mistaken. I got my first Dan at an ITF school, and that was one of the forms we needed to advance to 2nd Dan. That is one of the 1st Dan forms in Chung Do Kwan as well. It may be a red belt form for you guys, but everywhere else in the TKD world it is a BB form. 

And what is you proof that they are a McDojang? Have you been a student there and went through this?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 22, 2008)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Koryo is an ITF 1st Dan form if I am not mistaken. I got my first Dan at an ITF school, and that was one of the forms we needed to advance to 2nd Dan. That is one of the 1st Dan forms in Chung Do Kwan as well. It may be a red belt form for you guys, but everywhere else in the TKD world it is a BB form.
> 
> And what is you proof that they are a McDojang? Have you been a student there and went through this?


Koryo is a Kukkiwon form, though I have no idea if the ITF uses it as well.

Regarding McDojo proof, if you were replying to me, I haven't called the school a McDojo; I've never visited it.

Daniel


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## CDKJudoka (Dec 22, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Koryo is a Kukkiwon form, though I have no idea if the ITF uses it as well.
> 
> Regarding McDojo proof, if you were replying to me, I haven't called the school a McDojo; I've never visited it.
> 
> Daniel



Sorry Daniel, I was asking Bob, our Youn Wha Ryu. 


I know that it was used in the first Dojang I was with (John Chung), and I know he does ITF and KKW forms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 22, 2008)

I've found that there is a fair amout of schools that use Palgwe forms and some that use Taegeuk forms, in addition to Chang hon forms, so it wouldn't surprise me to see an ITF school using some of the KKW forms.  

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 22, 2008)

I looked at the Youn Hwa site and read through the curriculum and the description, and I kind of got the impression of a taekwondo school with a good deal advanced material for yudansha.  Certainly not a bad thing at all.

Bob0812, DaylightDave, do you see Youn Hwa Ryu as something like a kwan of taekwondo, much as Ishin Ryu, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, and Kyokushin are all styles of Karate, or do you see it a fully distinct art?

Daniel


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## davedaylight (Dec 24, 2008)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I looked at the Youn Hwa site and read through the curriculum and the description, and I kind of got the impression of a taekwondo school with a good deal advanced material for yudansha.  Certainly not a bad thing at all.
> 
> Bob0812, DaylightDave, do you see Youn Hwa Ryu as something like a kwan of taekwondo, much as Ishin Ryu, Shotokan, Shorin Ryu, and Kyokushin are all styles of Karate, or do you see it a fully distinct art?
> 
> Daniel


I'd say that's a valid way to look at it, I'm currently just a blue belt (hopefully I'll be eligible to test for red in January) so I don't have as much knowledge to answer that question as I'd like to have. Most of what I've learned so far has been Tae Kwon Do, although I have learned a few things that are not TKD and it appears the higher rank you go the more non-TKD techniques you learn. 

Here's a link to the wikimartialarts.com page on Youn Wha Ryu, not sure who did the info on it, but I'd assume it's done by someone who's got more experience than me, lol.
http://wikimartialarts.org/main/index.php/Youn_Wha_Ryu

Oh, in answer to someone's comment earlier in the thread, yes, our instructors do often recommend that we order stuff through them, but that's mainly because they often are able to get discounts that they pass onto us. Also they do want the gear to have the Han logo on them, which if you've got gear that doesn't have it you can just put a sticker on it--but it's not required to buy the "special" gear, I don't see that any different than the different patches every school I've ever seen wanting you to have. Also at the Arkansas tournament I was at in November there were people who had gear that didn't have the Han logo, so whether it's required or not I don't know, I'm sure it's encouraged--and really if you're proud of your organization why wouldn't you want to display it?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 25, 2008)

To be fair, Dave, I think that any school that has a pro shop will promote buying from the school.  We have one and are encouraged to buy through the school, though we are not prohibited from buying elsewhere.  It is when a school issues a prohibition against buying from anyone but the school that it becomes a problem.  And honestly, that can happen anywhere, McDojo or not.

Daniel


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 26, 2008)

DarkPhoenix said:


> Koryo is an ITF 1st Dan form if I am not mistaken. I got my first Dan at an ITF school, and that was one of the forms we needed to advance to 2nd Dan. That is one of the 1st Dan forms in Chung Do Kwan as well. It may be a red belt form for you guys, but everywhere else in the TKD world it is a BB form.
> 
> And what is you proof that they are a McDojang? Have you been a student there and went through this?


 Im done with this thread, it should be locked all its doing is causing one anothr to argue. I will infact answer your question. I know that most places Koryo is a BB form I understand that, I just do it at Red Belt. Here is why I think they are a McDojo:

To Advance to Yellow:
Basic Form 1
Straight Kick
Cresent Kick
Snap Kick
Down Block
Center Block
Face Block
To Advance to Second Yellow:
Basic Form 2
Roundhouse
SideKick
OutInCresent
Inside Block
Knifehand
To Advance to Green:
Basic Form 3
Step Straight KIck
Step Cresent Kick
This is all the technique you learn to get to green belt! I teach all this plus more at white belt. Also in the last 10 years I have had alot of their students come to my school with no technique and telling me how they were pushed to test in only one month. Especially when their school 10 miles from me closed down do to legal issues. Also they tie their students into black belt contracts and when the students decide karate isnt for them they sue them for thousands of dollars.

I would like this thread to die so please let it. I really should have never posted it, but I was trying to show the difference in my association and a mcdojo, but I failed to realize no one here has any idea of this school and never has had any experiance with them. I apologize to everyone and would lie this to die. Thank You


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## AMP-RYU (Dec 26, 2008)

Also if this is not a belt factory I dont know what is:

look down the page at their black belts:

http://worldtaekwondo.com/assistant.htm#brownb

Is there really any credibility with a school that gives out this many black belts?[/center][/center]


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## hkfuie (Dec 26, 2008)

I don't understand.  Do you want it to die or do you want to keep posting?  

I think you can trust that everyone here knows what it is like to have posted something they wished they could take back.  It takes time.  Just ignore the thread.  It will go away.  You just have to wait for a few days, maybe even a week or so.  I know it is not easy.  

Best wishes...and on to more interesting things to talk about, eh?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 26, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> Also if this is not a belt factory I dont know what is:
> 
> look down the page at their black belts:
> 
> ...


I'd be curious as to how many of those students were young students with poom ranks.  If a school is fairly large, then they certianly _could _turn out a large number of black belt students.

Personally, I see the emphasis on quantity (we turned out x-number of blackbelts last year) as a marketing gimick to attract parents, who really are the only ones who care about such things.  Which is why I'd bet that 90% of the people on that list are under the age of fifteen and not of first dan status, but rather first poom, which is technically not a black belt.

Daniel


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2008)

Die thread, die damn you! ROFL!  :whip1:


My son's bought me one of those cups and warmers that plug into your computer to keep your drinks warm so hey carry on, I'm fine lol!

We could agree that everyone on MT doesn't run or attend a McDojo and everyone else does?  :deadhorse


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## hkfuie (Dec 26, 2008)

Te-ez!  You are so EVIL!  DON'T post on this thread!!!  Have you never had a thread you wish would die?  Have you no _compassion_? 

Seriously, I think you are absolutely correct.  The very first sign that your school is NOT a mcdojo is that someone from the school is active on these boards.  ABSOLUTELY RIGHT-o!


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## jks9199 (Dec 26, 2008)

AMP-RYU said:


> Im done with this thread, it should be locked all its doing is causing one anothr to argue. I will infact answer your question. I know that most places Koryo is a BB form I understand that, I just do it at Red Belt. Here is why I think they are a McDojo:
> 
> To Advance to Yellow:
> Basic Form 1
> ...


I don't think you can compare raw numbers of techniques to assess a school's quality.  For example, to reach green belt in my class, you need to have an appropriate level of mastery of the following:
Stance Drill  (9 stances)
Stepping Drill (9 steps)
Punching Drill (9 punches)
Blocking Drill (9 blocks)
Kicking Drill (9 kicks)
Point form (8 sets, 2 counts)
and a few miscellaneous other things.  One way, it sounds like a lot (54 plus individual techniques or so);put it another way... and it's not so much (roughly equivalent to 6 "forms").  And it takes roughly 2 years (sometimes more) to get to green belt.

More important than the raw numbers is the appropriate level of mastery; I'm not going to hold a student back simply because they don't know all 9 kicks or something like that...  But I won't advance a student, even if they know all of this and more -- but can't do it well enough.


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## Tez3 (Dec 26, 2008)

hkfuie said:


> Te-ez! You are so EVIL! DON'T post on this thread!!! Have you never had a thread you wish would die? Have you no _compassion_?
> 
> Seriously, I think you are absolutely correct. The very first sign that your school is NOT a mcdojo is that someone from the school is active on these boards. ABSOLUTELY RIGHT-o!


 


I know!! Evil laugh! 
yeah I've posted up stuff I wish I hadn't before but I tend to stop posting on that thread when that happens!

We tend to be going round in cirlces and it makes me dizzy at my age lol! Still my coffee stays warm!


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## Chib (Mar 3, 2009)

First, I'm sorry for necromancing this thread, especially as my first post on this site, but this is how I found the place and I really felt like I needed to say something.

I have spent years trying to find a school that's comparable to the first one I attended, and I always leave disappointed.  I joined Frisco Karate Academy, studying Youn Wha Ryu under two black belts whose last names I don't even remember now.  They had studied under Master Juan Galvan, who was a student of Master Han, IIRC.   There's really nothing that could have made this setup SOUND more like a McDojo, but it wasn't. 

There was your typical TKD class for kids, from white up to green belt, and I started in that.  But the class for intermediate belts and adults was exacting and strict with emphasis on internalizing every movement.  We were competitive in open tournaments -- I made it to national level competition as a red belt and took home second place (and a torn ACL).

Master Juan's son Adrian Galvan, whom I assume was trained in Youn Wha Ryu as well, is currently the USKA kumite champion, according to the website. 

I guess my point is that the art itself doesn't have to be deficient just because the guy who developed it is now more interested in business than in "truth and justice".  In most any form of martial arts, it seems that the teacher is more important than the lesson. I'd give up anything to start up again in a school with the same intensity as Frisco Karate Academy.  It was a sad day when they closed their doors.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 3, 2009)

Welcome to MT, Chib.  

Personally, from reading this thread and corresponding with some of the YWR practitioners, as well as checking out the links and vids that they posted, Youn Wha Ryu looks pretty much identical to Kukkiwon taekwondo, with perhaps some added forms and a smattering of techniques from other arts.  

If the guy feels that he's altered the curriculum enough to warrant calling it something other than taekwondo, then that is his choice.  Since none of the techniques look to be anything revolutionary or new, it still comes down to the instructor, the dedication of the student, and how the training is handled.  I don't see the art itself as being all that important.

Glad your experience was a good one.

Daniel


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## YOUNWHATEXAS (Feb 21, 2012)

rmclain said:


> Hello Painstain,
> 
> The bio you listed looks the same as on the website.  Yoon Byung-in was long gone from S. Korea before Mr. Han began training.
> 
> ...


MR. Mclain,

I've read your previous discuss with a student of GMH.  The bio you put forth is correct as is the previous poster.  The difference is not in truth or embellishment but rather the use of names and time frame.  Grand Master Han did indeed learn from Master Byung-in.  Master Byung-in did not disappear from South Korean until 1950.  Grand Master Han took instruction from him in 1948 along with various other Masters.  In the 1940's Korea was a mess, then war found Korea again in the 1950's.    GMH Youn Wha Instructor was a Master named Sae Chong Wang but that you seem to know.  I guess what I would ask you is how do you know Grand Master Han?  I know him and like most 76 year olds he is entertaining and form wha can tell honest.  I'm sure if someone checked Master Soo bio you might find some facts that seem odd but that does not mean deception or embellishment.  The art is called Youn Wha because GMH felt he wanted to distinguish it from his TDK background.  He still uses his TDK as the basis and intact uses the Federation on his certificates.  Honestly, I've been around 33 years in the martial arts community and witnessed enough to know fact from fiction.  GMH like his peers, honors Martial Arts with their dedication to it.  I would be equally honored to take instruction from any Master of his Rank and ability.

Master Guy Mckee



R. McLain[/QUOTE]


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 21, 2012)

Um.... you know the last post on this thread was like four years ago and that the post  you are responding to is almost six?


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2012)

painstain said:


> i am a part of Grand Master Man Hee Hans world youn wha ryu association. its foundation is tkd but very extensively mixed with wing chun, chinese boxing, judo, and a few others. our main websight for my divission is younwha.com. i was wondering if any of you have heard of this system before and if so, what do you think about it. but i don't want you to get me wrong, i am very confident i am in a great system, i was just wondering what others thought about it.



I heard the name before, but haven't really seen it. If you are happy with your training, then that is the main thing. I wouldn't care about what others think about your style, if I were you.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

While I have nothing more to say on this topic, and nothing at all to say about Master McKee's post (I have no knowledge that would contribute in that area), I did go back and re-read my previous posts.  

While I stand by what I said to the Amp-Ryu guy who's name kept changing, I will use this as an opportunity to say that my comments regarding the Kukkiwon history were out of line.  Lived, learned, and grew up a bit.


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2012)

Live and learn.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2012)

Makes a big difference when you are communicating with people who are not just trying to find new and exciting ways to be negative about the Kukkiwon and the WTF.  Correspondence with Master Cole and yourself has been highly beneficial to me, and I appreciate you both.  Posts of both of you have been far more helpful to me than you will likely ever know.

My thanks!


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Makes a big difference when you are communicating with people who are not just trying to find new and exciting ways to be negative about the Kukkiwon and the WTF.



It's like crabs in a bucket. If one crab is getting out, then the other crabs grab him by the legs and pull him down back into the bucket. To me, the better way is to figure out a way so that everyone can get out of the bucket. And that is what taekwondo is really about, cooperation at the highest levels so that everyone excels, which filters down as a philosophy to the instructors and schools. When I hear people who constantly complain about this or that in kukki taekwondo, it tells me in a very real way, that they simply do not understand what taekwondo is about - which involves inclusive thinking, cooperation, and helping ourselves by helping others.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 23, 2012)

I made a decision this year to try to reduce the amount of negativity that comes out in either what I say or what I type.  I had always thought of myself as a very positive person, but after some serious self evaluation last year, I found that I still contributed a lot of negativity to the world in terms of what I said, both verbally and in typed format.  

I also found that I had a negative thought pattern that of course, steered me to negative conclusions.  Not surprisingly, I had a lot of negative people around me.  I disassociated myself from or reduced association with those people, and what a difference it has made!

Still a lot of work to do, but it's getting done.


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