# Mma street fight



## Headhunter (Apr 9, 2018)

so I was rewatching tuf series 5 and 2 fighters got into a fight in the house while drunk. Now in my opinion they're a pair of idiots for fighting like that but the fight is interesting to watch because mainly it's grappling and it does show some of the dangers of grappling in a street fight. Not hating on anything just thought it'd be an interesting discussion.


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 17, 2018)

And yet.... if one guy wanted to grapple, but the other didn't - it would still go to ground and be a grappling fight. No escaping it. That concrete curb did make me nervous, as did the closed guard at 0:43 that ended with the white shirt guy getting slammed. That's a risky move. All the stand up grappling / wrestling that led up to it made sense. A clinch of some kind almost completely nullifies the ability of your opponent to strike.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> And yet.... if one guy wanted to grapple, but the other didn't - it would still go to ground and be a grappling fight. No escaping it. That concrete curb did make me nervous, as did the closed guard at 0:43 that ended with the white shirt guy getting slammed. That's a risky move. All the stand up grappling / wrestling that led up to it made sense. A clinch of some kind almost completely nullifies the ability of your opponent to strike.


If that were the case, every MMA fight where one guy is good on the ground with shoddy stand up, and the other guy is a good striker, would be decided on the ground. Not always what happens.


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## Headhunter (Apr 17, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> And yet.... if one guy wanted to grapple, but the other didn't - it would still go to ground and be a grappling fight. No escaping it. That concrete curb did make me nervous, as did the closed guard at 0:43 that ended with the white shirt guy getting slammed. That's a risky move. All the stand up grappling / wrestling that led up to it made sense. A clinch of some kind almost completely nullifies the ability of your opponent to strike.


Rubbish it depends on the practitioner how many mma fights have there been where the grappler is shooting for a takedown and can't get it all fight. Perfect example Anderson silva vs Damian Maia or basically any chuck Liddell fight


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> And yet.... if one guy wanted to grapple, but the other didn't - it would still go to ground and be a grappling fight. No escaping it. That concrete curb did make me nervous, as did the closed guard at 0:43 that ended with the white shirt guy getting slammed. That's a risky move. All the stand up grappling / wrestling that led up to it made sense. A clinch of some kind almost completely nullifies the ability of your opponent to strike.


It's very difficult to take me to the ground. I do my best to determine if I want to go on the ground or not.  Street fights usually have more room that what is available in the ring.  The landscape can also play a factor on what goes to the ground.  As a striker the concrete is my friend and my advantage against a grappler


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 17, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> if one guy wanted to grapple, but the other didn't - it would still go to ground and be a grappling fight. No escaping it.





Headhunter said:


> Rubbish it depends on the practitioner how many mma fights have there been where the grappler is shooting for a takedown and can't get it all fight. Perfect example Anderson silva vs Damian Maia or basically any chuck Liddell fight



It depends on the takedown skill of one fighter vs the takedown defense of the other. A decent grappler against someone with no grappling ability, sure. But part of grappling is learning how not to be taken down when you don't want to be. Anderson Silva and Chuck Lidell are high level grapplers who typically used their grappling skill to keep the fight standing as much as possible.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's very difficult to take me to the ground.


How much time have you spent sparring with actual grappling experts (especially grapplers who also know how to strike)?



JowGaWolf said:


> Street fights usually have more room that what is available in the ring.


On the other hand many assaults happen inside, where there is typically less open space than in the octagon.



JowGaWolf said:


> The landscape can also play a factor on what goes to the ground.


Yep.



JowGaWolf said:


> As a striker the concrete is my friend and my advantage against a grappler


Interesting. From my perspective as a grappler, the concrete is my friend and gives me an advantage against non-grapplers. Throwing someone on concrete is much more likely to inflict injury or end the fight than throwing them on a padded surface. Also, if a fight goes to the ground against a non-grappler I am probably going to end up on top. That means my opponent is the one who will be taking abuse from contact with the concrete.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How much time have you spent sparring with actual grappling experts (especially grapplers who also know how to strike)?
> 
> 
> On the other hand many assaults happen inside, where there is typically less open space than in the octagon.
> ...



I think the concrete thing is the slam defefence against the arm bar in this case.(And triangles of course)

We do it as a matter of course anyway. So it is factored in a bit.

We could also look at that jump guard stuff. which I am not a fan of when punches are involved.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> How much time have you spent sparring with actual grappling experts (especially grapplers who also know how to strike)?


As for me actually grappling with experts.  I haven't grappled with anyone who would claim that  they are experts even though they are good at what they do.  I go against them whenever I can because it helps me train against an opponent who grabs. The highest skill level grappler and striker I've been against would be my brother.  He's the only one that makes me cautious about my punches and proximity to him being able to grab me.  I like sparring against grapplers but I will never try to beat them at their game.

If I have a chance to spar with some of the guys from here, I would.  There's nothing like giving your sparring partner a goal.



Tony Dismukes said:


> On the other hand many assaults happen inside, where there is typically less open space than in the octagon.


 Yeah that would be the exception.  I haven't had any aggressive confrontations in closed in areas yet (In all my life).   I've been to clubs, bars, concerts, a house parties without confrontations of any type.  All of my confrontations have been in areas where I had running space if needed, concrete, moving traffic, in general open areas.   I guess I'm fortunate that way.


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 17, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Interesting. From my perspective as a grappler, the concrete is my friend and gives me an advantage against non-grapplers. Throwing someone on concrete is much more likely to inflict injury or end the fight than throwing them on a padded surface.


You have to keep in mind that I know how to throw people on the ground, as well as trip and sweep.   I like it for the same reason you do.  Concrete doesn't give.

You have to keep in mind that I'm not the average striker as well lol.  Do I need to show the videos again lol.   I'll have to make some new ones in the future.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 17, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> You have to keep in mind that I know how to throw people on the ground, as well as trip and sweep.   I like it for the same reason you do.  Concrete doesn't give.
> 
> You have to keep in mind that I'm not the average striker as well lol.  Do I need to show the videos again lol.   I'll have to make some new ones in the future.


Yeah, I like what I’ve seen of your foot sweeps. If we ever have a chance to meet up in person I’ll have to pick your brains for some tips on how you set those up. I use foot sweeps sometimes, but typically from a clinch rather than from striking range.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Yeah, I like what I’ve seen of your foot sweeps. If we ever have a chance to meet up in person I’ll have to pick your brains for some tips on how you set those up. I use foot sweeps sometimes, but typically from a clinch rather than from striking range.



Right cross right leg is the one that always catches me. Single leg set up sort of.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 17, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Right cross right leg is the one that always catches me. Single leg set up sort of.


Any chance you have a video? It seems like a simple combination, but I'm trying to think how that would work, and from how I'm picturing it you would risk throwing yourself off balance instead.


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## Anarax (Apr 17, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> so I was rewatching tuf series 5 and 2 fighters got into a fight in the house while drunk. Now in my opinion they're a pair of idiots for fighting like that but the fight is interesting to watch because mainly it's grappling and it does show some of the dangers of grappling in a street fight. Not hating on anything just thought it'd be an interesting discussion.



There are definitely environmental factors that Martial Artists need to keep in mind when fighting. IMO, I think the armbar was a bad technique for the given situation and was poorly utilized. I don't think the grappling in the video was bad for the situation, just more specifically the armbar.


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## Anarax (Apr 17, 2018)

Imagine this technique done on concrete


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you have a video? It seems like a simple combination, but I'm trying to think how that would work, and from how I'm picturing it you would risk throwing yourself off balance instead.



I could probably get one. See how I go.


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## drop bear (Apr 17, 2018)

Anarax said:


> There are definitely environmental factors that Martial Artists need to keep in mind when fighting. IMO, I think the armbar was a bad technique for the given situation and was poorly utilized. I don't think the grappling in the video was bad for the situation, just more specifically the armbar.



The jump guard was pretty silly.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Imagine this technique done on concrete



No, I won't imagine it. Hurt just watching it.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2018)

The first time a stand up fighter goes against an expert grappler all kinds of stuff run through the strikers head. Most of them begin with "uh oh." But not for the reason most would think. Expert grapplers will do whatever they want, with little or no effort, and as slowly as they want. You feel like a baby being looked over by a doctor.

And when it's over, there's a lot of this.




 

Man, is there a lot of that.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 18, 2018)

Buka said:


> The first time a stand up fighter goes against an expert grappler all kinds of stuff run through the strikers head. Most of them begin with "uh oh." But not for the reason most would think. Expert grapplers will do whatever they want, with little or no effort, and as slowly as they want. You feel like a baby being looked over by a doctor.
> 
> And when it's over, there's a lot of this.
> 
> ...



At the same time, the opposite is true. Most of my experience in MMA-style sparring is as a primarily striker against primarily grapplers. There was a lot of that at the beginning...later on I got much better at preventing their grappling, while at the same time striking them. By the time I was there a year, if someone new (someone from a different dojo, or someone coming back that I hadn't met) came by, they would try the grappling game, and not know how to handle it when they'd be looking for a grab/throw/takedown, and somehow magically end up punched in the head.


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## drop bear (Apr 18, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> At the same time, the opposite is true. Most of my experience in MMA-style sparring is as a primarily striker against primarily grapplers. There was a lot of that at the beginning...later on I got much better at preventing their grappling, while at the same time striking them. By the time I was there a year, if someone new (someone from a different dojo, or someone coming back that I hadn't met) came by, they would try the grappling game, and not know how to handle it when they'd be looking for a grab/throw/takedown, and somehow magically end up punched in the head.



And so the much underrated concept of gravity comes in to play.

And again pulling ideas from Rob here.

Gravity is one of the forces of the universe. And the only force you can employ to your advantage in a fight.

You can't summon lighting or attack people with nuclear fission. Chi is blatantly made up.

But you can summon the power of gravity. It is basically a super power.

So striking or grappling if you can make someone take your weight you should be doing it.

MMA as a striker is a fantastic example because if me and you have the same ability to strike and we both stay standing the fight could go either way.

Otherwise if one of us winds up on top of the other. The fight is pretty much ours.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 18, 2018)

drop bear said:


> And so the much underrated concept of gravity comes in to play.
> 
> And again pulling ideas from Rob here.
> 
> ...


So just to clarify, your point is when we're striking its 50/50 (assuming everything else is equal), but then if you're a better grappler and you get to grappling range then you would pretty much win 9 times out of 10?

If so, probably true. My assumption is that generally people end up being a better striker or a better grappler. If you're equal with me at one and better at the other, I'm going to assume you'll normally win, especially since I'm small. But if I'm a better striker, and I have developed decent takedown defense over time (alone with grappling for the pure purpose of escaping...I can't do submissions for shyte, but assuming the fall was clean I've got a lot of experience escaping from superior grapplers), then my experience has been that I'll do pretty well.

There is a caveat to the above...I have never faced a better grappler trying to harm me on concrete...pretty sure that would change the game up quite a bit.


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## drop bear (Apr 18, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So just to clarify, your point is when we're striking its 50/50 (assuming everything else is equal), but then if you're a better grappler and you get to grappling range then you would pretty much win 9 times out of 10?
> 
> If so, probably true. My assumption is that generally people end up being a better striker or a better grappler. If you're equal with me at one and better at the other, I'm going to assume you'll normally win, especially since I'm small. But if I'm a better striker, and I have developed decent takedown defense over time (alone with grappling for the pure purpose of escaping...I can't do submissions for shyte, but assuming the fall was clean I've got a lot of experience escaping from superior grapplers), then my experience has been that I'll do pretty well.
> 
> There is a caveat to the above...I have never faced a better grappler trying to harm me on concrete...pretty sure that would change the game up quite a bit.



Not really. You are separating grappling and striking. Which is not always the best way to look at things.


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## PiedmontChun (Apr 19, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> If that were the case, every MMA fight where one guy is good on the ground with shoddy stand up, and the other guy is a good striker, would be decided on the ground. Not always what happens.


That wasn't my point.


Headhunter said:


> Rubbish it depends on the practitioner how many mma fights have there been where the grappler is shooting for a takedown and can't get it all fight. Perfect example Anderson silva vs Damian Maia or basically any chuck Liddell fight


I went back and read my comment and I could have worded it much better. My point was that if one person wanted to grapple (whether standing grappling or deliberately taking to the ground) then there is going to be grappling. Its almost inescapable, even if the other person has good takedown defense and maybe regains striking range - the threat of getting wrapped up, clinched, swept, taken down to the ground is always there. In Wing Chun I was taught "don't grapple with a grappler" and to "not play their game" but having done a bit of grappling, I now see that as a bit naïve.


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## TMA17 (Apr 22, 2018)

BJJ Black Belt's Point Of View: Why Jiu-Jitsu Is Not Suitable For Street Fighting


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## Oni_Kadaki (Apr 23, 2018)

I've never been a fan of BJJ for actual self defense because, in my mind, if a fight goes to the ground, I've already failed several times over. Specifically, I've failed to defuse/deescalate the situation, escape, successfully employ my weapon, and/or end it with strikes/standing grappling. With all that being said, in the one real self-defense situation I've been in, BJJ (specifically pulling guard, taking my opponent's back, putting them in a seatbelt and then going to a rear naked choke) saved my ***.


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## TMA17 (Apr 24, 2018)

My instructor tonight talked a lot about how important maintaining distance is and knowing where the pocket is.  He also drove home how important both striking and ground game are.  He believes BJJ is most important though, alluding to how more often than not the fight is going to end on the ground.  Not sure how common that is in a street fight though.  As MMA evolved, striking became better and guys like Liddell were able to neutralize grapplers and the Gracies over time were not as dominant.  Liddell also knows BJJ/Wrestling. 

Back on track, I think MMA trains you how to fight no matter where you're at.  You learn how to fight by fighting.


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## TMA17 (Apr 25, 2018)




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## hoshin1600 (Apr 25, 2018)

at 1:15 the guy with his head locked up (which looked like a triangle or something similar) tapped out.  the guy in the blue jeans then let go.  at the end the guy in the blue jeans quit,   complaining about "on concrete" .
so then the question in my mind is ...can this really be called a street fight?  what is your definition?  to me this was a typical interaction to show dominance.  the goal was not really to injure the other. only enough to show how dominant they are and maybe get the other guy to give up and back down.
if they really had the intention of injuring the other (which happens in street fights) then you would expect a different outcome.  no tapping, no complaining about being on concrete. in fact that concrete would have been a prime weapon to smash the other guys head till the green ooze came out his ears.  no one was slammed into the fire pit.  that would have been my first instinct.  someone being on fire tends to end a fight really quick.
to me this was just MMA fighters blowing off steam, in the way they best know how.  each one knows the rules of what is exceptable and what is not. this is clearly evident from the footage.  how would the result change if one of them was clearly not playing by those rules?


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## drop bear (Apr 25, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> at 1:15 the guy with his head locked up (which looked like a triangle or something similar) tapped out.  the guy in the blue jeans then let go.  at the end the guy in the blue jeans quit,   complaining about "on concrete" .
> so then the question in my mind is ...can this really be called a street fight?  what is your definition?  to me this was a typical interaction to show dominance.  the goal was not really to injure the other. only enough to show how dominant they are and maybe get the other guy to give up and back down.
> if they really had the intention of injuring the other (which happens in street fights) then you would expect a different outcome.  no tapping, no complaining about being on concrete. in fact that concrete would have been a prime weapon to smash the other guys head till the green ooze came out his ears.  no one was slammed into the fire pit.  that would have been my first instinct.  someone being on fire tends to end a fight really quick.
> to me this was just MMA fighters blowing off steam, in the way they best know how.  each one knows the rules of what is exceptable and what is not. this is clearly evident from the footage.  how would the result change if one of them was clearly not playing by those rules?



There are a lot more non event, two guys throwing with their eyes closed from ten feet away street fights than proper kill or die ones.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are a lot more non event, two guys throwing with their eyes closed from ten feet away street fights than proper kill or die ones.


Throughout ones life time, yes without a doubt.  I do think it is important to acknowledge the differences between an interaction for dominance and one with malevolent intentions.  Monkey dances for dominance, you can apply descalation and often walk away. Where as if someone has malevolent intentions for you there is a slim chance of walking away and the costs to your health and well being are much higher.  I see a big difference between the two. I would much rather train and learn tactics for the one with the higher costs attached to it. They might be some of the same techniques but will have a different mind set. And I would want to be prepared mentally for malevolence. Some people are not.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 26, 2018)

drop bear said:


> There are a lot more non event, two guys throwing with their eyes closed from ten feet away street fights than proper kill or die ones.


It also doesn't have to be "kill or die"  it could be fein submission  then when he turns his back hit him in the head with a billiard cue.  Fights are not fair if you want to win.


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## Skullpunch (May 7, 2018)

Anarax said:


> There are definitely environmental factors that Martial Artists need to keep in mind when fighting. IMO, I think the armbar was a bad technique for the given situation and was poorly utilized. I don't think the grappling in the video was bad for the situation, just more specifically the armbar.




More specifically, notice how he crossed his feet when he went for it.  This is a huge no-no, and it's exactly why he got slammed because it left his opponent free to posture up.  His right leg should have been hooked behind his opponent's head and pulling towards himself as he extended his hips so that if his opponent tried to posture up and slam he wouldn't go far enough to get any leverage and only succeed in tightening the armbar.  When crossing your feet during an armbar from your back, your opponent only needs to be able to lift more than you weigh in order to spike your head on the ground.


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## FriedRice (Jun 29, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> so I was rewatching tuf series 5 and 2 fighters got into a fight in the house while drunk. Now in my opinion they're a pair of idiots for fighting like that but the fight is interesting to watch because mainly it's grappling and it does show some of the dangers of grappling in a street fight. Not hating on anything just thought it'd be an interesting discussion.




They mainly grappled because it was still a situation where they both were pretty reluctant to go 100%....with full knowledge that they're pushing the envelope of getting kicked off the show and never being a UFC fighter, ever....so they didn't really want to throw full punches....but as it got more heated during the grappling, some full strikes were thrown. But then it cooled down....then started back up, where in round 2, it did look like more full power strikes for the KO.

The guy who complained about getting sledged hammer, head first into the concrete, was still under the impression that they're still slightly friendly and that the other guy wouldn't do that, but he did. However, it was  only 2 slams, and only 1 of them connected well, to the head. He let go right away, which was the right thing to do to stop getting cracked.

This doesn't negate grappling in a street fight. If anything, someone at the skill level of these guys would destroy 95% of most people their size in the streets. Trained fighters wouldn't be pulling guard, but rather slam the other guy into the cement, then just head stomp them to death if they wanted that.


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