# When the Monkey Dance stops



## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2011)

What happens when two AREN'T tangoing...



> it's important to  distinguish violence from what Rory Miller  calls a "monkey dance."  A  monkey dance is about status, not really  hurting someone.  There are  unwritten rules in a monkey dance, and you  violate those rules at the  risk of social sanction.  The college jock  who beats the stereotypical  nerd senseless doesn't gain status; he's  laughed at.


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## MJS (Apr 29, 2011)

In both of these situations, the defenders, at least from my point of view, were initially, not feeding into the clowns goading them on.  The one thing that I could see being an issue, is in the 2nd clip, when the guy kicked the attacker, once he was down.  Tempting yes, and its something that, if I wasn't thinking with a clear head, might be tempted to do myself, but its something that could make the situation worse.  The guy was down, threat over at the moment, he could've easily walked away.

The first clip...I really dont see any issues with him holding the other guy down.  Funny though, how in that case, even though the drunk guy was clearly outmatched, IMO, still got up and continued to talk ****. LOL.  Some people never learn. LOL.  

Both of the knuckleheads wanted the monkey dance, but the other guys weren't having any part of it.  Was too much force used by either of the defenders?  IMO, no.  Aside from the kick, I dont see any issues.


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## CoryKS (Apr 29, 2011)

> The college jock who beats the stereotypical nerd senseless doesn't gain status; he's laughed at.


 
I disagree with this statement somewhat.  

A jock who _initiates_ violence against a nerd will lose status, but if the two are caught up in a monkey dance and the nerd refuses to back down, the jock will eventually beat his *** and will gain status (or at least, won't lose status).  Because he has affirmed what is perceived to be the 'proper' hierarchy.  

Miller mentioned in the book that if a woman fights back against her attacker she will likely be more badly hurt than if she hadn't because, since she was chosen based on her relative weakness, her rejection of his dominance is seen as an affront and a punishable offense.  I think the same principle applies here.  

There's another fascinating (although personally frustrating) aspect that I found out from my son when he was dealing with a bully situation at school.  He was being picked on a 'popular' kid, and when he fought back and won the other kids acted like _he_ was the jerk even though the other kid instigated it.  Now he's reluctant to defend himself even though he can, because he fears ostracism.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## CoryKS (Apr 29, 2011)

MJS said:


> In both of these situations, the defenders, at least from my point of view, were initially, not feeding into the clowns goading them on. The one thing that I could see being an issue, is in the 2nd clip, when the guy kicked the attacker, once he was down. Tempting yes, and its something that, if I wasn't thinking with a clear head, might be tempted to do myself, but its something that could make the situation worse. The guy was down, threat over at the moment, he could've easily walked away.
> 
> The first clip...I really dont see any issues with him holding the other guy down. Funny though, how in that case, even though the drunk guy was clearly outmatched, IMO, still got up and continued to talk ****. LOL. Some people never learn. LOL.
> 
> Both of the knuckleheads wanted the monkey dance, but the other guys weren't having any part of it. Was too much force used by either of the defenders? IMO, no. Aside from the kick, I dont see any issues.


 

I think that in the first clip the guy that punched him seemed more confidence of his placement in the social hierarchy.  He let the other guy bark but when the drunk put his hands on him, he knocked him down and tried to get him to stay down.

The second clip, the guy didn't seem so confident.  He was puffing up and saying weird things.   "I punched you like a man!"  Like he was trying to establish his dominance.  Kicking him in the ribs when he wasn't even trying to get back up was a dick move.


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## Empty Hands (Apr 29, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> There's another fascinating (although personally frustrating) aspect that I found out from my son when he was dealing with a bully situation at school.  He was being picked on a 'popular' kid, and when he fought back and won the other kids acted like _he_ was the jerk even though the other kid instigated it.



I see this _all the time_.  When whoever is being picked on fights back or gets upset, suddenly everything was a "joke" and they were "just teasing", and the victim becomes the unreasonable one.  I guess those hierarchies are going to be maintained one way or another.


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 29, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


> I see this _all the time_.  When whoever is being picked on fights back or gets upset, suddenly everything was a "joke" and they were "just teasing", and the victim becomes the unreasonable one.  I guess those hierarchies are going to be maintained one way or another.



Yep. I've seen this happen. As long as the rest of the hierarchy is not bullied, they're perfectly happy with someone else being the lighting rod.
They'll typically be less than enthused that the lightning rod is gone and everybody is looking at each other w t f is going to happen next.


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## jks9199 (Apr 29, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> I disagree with this statement somewhat.
> 
> A jock who _initiates_ violence against a nerd will lose status, but if the two are caught up in a monkey dance and the nerd refuses to back down, the jock will eventually beat his *** and will gain status (or at least, won't lose status).  Because he has affirmed what is perceived to be the 'proper' hierarchy.



If the jock trounces the nerd excessively, even if the nerd insisted on the fight, the jock loses status points.  If the jock simply quickly & effectively puts the nerd down -- yeah, he's simply maintaining the hierarchy.  When the status game is vastly unequal, the players don't buy into the dance.  They just stop the nonsense.  They don't stomp the guy unnecessarily, they don't trumpet their victory.

My teacher told us the story of a town where there lived two well known, great fighters.  Many people in the town were urging them to fight, to see who was _the best, _but the constantly declined to fight each other_._  One of the men was younger, and perhaps a bit more headstrong or less confident in himself.  He'd finally decided that he'd had enough of being questioned... and decided that the next day, he meet the other fighter as he crossed a bridge, and settle things once and for all.  As the elder master began to cross the bridge, the young man threw his best, fastest & most deceptive attack... which the elder man simply evaded, slipping in close, and putting his arm around the youngster, saying "We really don't need to see who's better, now, do we?"



> There's another fascinating (although personally frustrating) aspect that I found out from my son when he was dealing with a bully situation at school.  He was being picked on a 'popular' kid, and when he fought back and won the other kids acted like _he_ was the jerk even though the other kid instigated it.  Now he's reluctant to defend himself even though he can, because he fears ostracism.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.



This is a different thing... You can't upset the pecking order to suddenly and too disruptively.  When people perceive chaos, they tend to retreat to established structures.  It also depends on how he beat the other boy; if he didn't play by the established rules, he doesn't "win" the Monkey Dance.  INstead, he gets branded a cheater...


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## Carol (Apr 29, 2011)

> The college jock  who beats the stereotypical  nerd senseless doesn't gain status; he's  laughed at.



But he doesn't do it for status, eh?  He does it for attention.


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## Josh Oakley (Apr 30, 2011)

Carol said:


> But he doesn't do it for status, eh?  He does it for attention.



Not really much of a difference...


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## Twin Fist (Apr 30, 2011)

fun clips, the kick on clip 2 was excessive, if understandable.

good technique in both cases


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## MJS (Apr 30, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> I think that in the first clip the guy that punched him seemed more confidence of his placement in the social hierarchy. He let the other guy bark but when the drunk put his hands on him, he knocked him down and tried to get him to stay down.


 
Agreed.



> The second clip, the guy didn't seem so confident. He was puffing up and saying weird things. "I punched you like a man!" Like he was trying to establish his dominance. Kicking him in the ribs when he wasn't even trying to get back up was a dick move.


 
I agree the kick was a dick move.  I took the guy as trying to talk his way out.  With all the yelling, it was hard to hear everything, but there were times in the beginning, before he even threw the punch, that he was trying to create distance, had his hands up in a ready but defensive posture.  At the end though, yeah, he was stooping to the other guys level.  He'd have been better off getting the hell out of there, instead of standing over him.


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## Carol (Apr 30, 2011)

MJS said:


> Agreed.
> 
> 
> 
> I agree the kick was a dick move.  I took the guy as trying to talk his way out.  With all the yelling, it was hard to hear everything, but there were times in the beginning, before he even threw the punch, that he was trying to create distance, had his hands up in a ready but defensive posture.  At the end though, yeah, he was stooping to the other guys level.  He'd have been better off getting the hell out of there, instead of standing over him.


 
I dunno if he was really trying to talk his way out.  0:08 he tries to take his ring off, 0:14 seconds in he finally does, 0:18 he puts his ring in his right pocket...then he punches the shirtless guy.   I don't think he would have taken off his ring if he wasn't planning to open a can. :lol:


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## Archangel M (Apr 30, 2011)

Twin Fist said:


> fun clips, the kick on clip 2 was excessive, if understandable.
> 
> good technique in both cases



I would have like to have seen a nice Capoeria style "back-flip kick to the face" personally. :ultracool


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## Twin Fist (Apr 30, 2011)

I know, right? dont these guys know the best self defense is to do a hand stand and twirl around like Chun Li???


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## WC_lun (May 1, 2011)

One of the best sections out of Rory Miller's book and in my opinion the most truthful and relevant to many young men is that about the "Monkey Dance."  Sometimes it can be really hard to stop the Monkey Dance once it has started.  It takes a cool head, recognization of what is happening, and an ego that is very under control.  This combination is not very common,even in older guys.


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## chinto (May 1, 2011)

the first clip was self defense, and provably not a problem for the man the drunk assaulted.

The Second clip, well the kick could get you in a lot of trouble in most states. the threat was neutralized, and he could walk away. with that kicks placement aggravated assault is not out of the question to be added... depending on injury sustained, could even be attempted murder... ribs in livers kill people... and felony assault in a lot of states is almost assured from what i understand... should have just walked away after the attacker was down.


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## Balrog (May 23, 2011)

_The four truths: Assaults happen closer, faster, more suddenly, and with more power than most people believe._Rory Miller, *Meditations on Violence*
*---------------------*
Thank you for the referral to this book.  It has immediately gone to the head of my reading list and I am going to have to read it several times to pick up all the points that he makes.


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## jks9199 (May 23, 2011)

Facing Violence is out.  You'll want to add it to the list.


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## CoryKS (May 23, 2011)

jks9199 said:


> Facing Violence is out. You'll want to add it to the list.


 
I'm going to stop by the book store on the way home tonight, hopefully they'll have a copy.  AFAIC, anything Miller writes is an automatic purchase.


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## OKenpo942 (May 24, 2011)

These vids cracked me up. I love to see a punk with a big mouth get stomped after all that posturing. If your going to talk the talk, walk the walk. Basically, and I've said this before, 'put up, or shut up'.

And, yes, the kick in the second clip was a bit much, but too bad for the worm wriggling on the ground. Wouldn't have been there in the first place if he'd have just kept his mouth shut and walked away.

James


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## CoryKS (May 24, 2011)

CoryKS said:


> I'm going to stop by the book store on the way home tonight, hopefully they'll have a copy. AFAIC, anything Miller writes is an automatic purchase.


 
No joy at Borders, looks like I'm going to have to order from Amazon.  I prefer to have the item in hand at the time I pay for it. 

Here's a positive review:  http://drhelen.blogspot.com/2011/05/facing-violence.html


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