# Hyung info - Tang Soo 2



## mjd (Jun 8, 2007)

Many years ago I was taught a Hyung simply called Tang Soo 2, don't know anything about it except for a TSD Master from Michigan taught it to my instructor, my instructor passed it to me saying it was made for competion because tsd hyungs were not exciting as many other styles. 

I do not have any history or even the Masters name that taught my instructor, but I was told that there is a set of 3 hyungs, I have never seen the first or third one, I know this is not much to go on but I would like to know the other hyungs if anyone has any information.

If I can figure out how to attach a word document i would be happy to post the hyung Tang Soo 2, maybe someone would recognize the hyung.

Thanks in advance.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 9, 2007)

I have never heard of it, but would definately be interested to see a description of it.


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## stephentsd (Jun 9, 2007)

I'd be interested to know also, a set of three? Well as far as i can think that narrows it down to Basic Forms and Naihanchi! I'd be interested to know why your instructor things the TSD hyungs are not as exciting as other styles, Bassai can be explosive and good to watch! as are alot of the black belt forms, JinDo, chil sung 3,4,5.


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## mjd (Jun 9, 2007)

stephentsd said:


> I'd be interested to know also, a set of three? Well as far as i can think that narrows it down to Basic Forms and Naihanchi! I'd be interested to know why your instructor things the TSD hyungs are not as exciting as other styles, Bassai can be explosive and good to watch! as are alot of the black belt forms, JinDo, chil sung 3,4,5.


 
My instructor was taught the Hyung from a Master at a clinic he went to when he was a 2nd gup ~40 years ago, he does not even know's the Master's name. The Master that taught the hyung told the group he was teaching it to it was made to compete with. I don't really know anymore than that except I think it is a pretty cool hyung. I agree with you about Bassai, Jindo, ect. 

I would like to know the 1st and 3rd hyungs if there is such a thing.

I sent a copy of the hyung to Mbuzzy to see if he could post, your welcome to it, it's a neat hyung.


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## MBuzzy (Jun 9, 2007)

Here is the word document...MJD - hopefully you find something out!  I'd like to know too!


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## Chizikunbo (Jun 9, 2007)

From the sounds of things it is JUST a competition form...many styles create these for use in the larger tournament circuit. Im not a fan of such things, but ces't la vie...many "traditional" forms dont work well in the sport karate tournaments so folks create these to "keep up" with the competition. GM Ho Sik Pak has even created a set he calls the "High Mountain" forms...
--josh


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## mjd (Jun 10, 2007)

Chizikunbo said:


> From the sounds of things it is JUST a competition form...


 
You are correct, it is a competition form



Chizikunbo said:


> GM Ho Sik Pak has even created a set he calls the "High Mountain" forms...


 
I have seen these, I have some DVD's of Master Pak, the form Tang Soo 2 I am asking about I think is one of the better ones I have seen and that is why I would like to see the other 2 that goes with it.


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## stephentsd (Jun 10, 2007)

i'm very curious now! it would be brilliant to see a video of this hyung, does anybody have a video??


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 11, 2007)

Hrm...I'm confused at step 6: "[FONT=&quot]Stepping forward execute right leg front snap kick ending in right foot lead leg fighting stance immediately execute left hand lead center knife hand block." 

How is that possible/practical? Typo, maybe?

I'm also curious as to what the "cup and saucer position" is, since I've never heard of it.

Overall, I agree that I'd like to see a video of this hyung. I can try it out from looking at the description, but without visual aid, I'm fairly certain I'd get it wrong. Even at that, it doesn't look half as exciting as, say, one of the palche forms, or sip soo, or jinte. 
[/FONT]


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## mjd (Jun 11, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> Hrm...I'm confused at step 6: "[FONT=&quot]Stepping forward execute right leg front snap kick ending in right foot lead leg fighting stance immediately execute left hand lead center knife hand block."
> 
> [FONT=&quot]How is that possible/practical? Typo, maybe?




Step 4,5,6 are the same as 1,2,3 only done at 180 degrees, the knife hands should plural as double (Ssang soo do malk ki), other than that makes perfect since to me.

Starting from: left lead leg front stance with reverse punch, moving to right front kick bring hands to left side then executing double center knifes ending in fighting stance witht he right leg in front.
 
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JT_the_Ninja said:


> I'm also curious as to what the "cup and saucer position" is, since I've never heard of it.


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It's a term my instructor used for military stance, or guard, maybe I can explain, example would be 2nd move in Pinean Odan.

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JT_the_Ninja said:


> Overall, I agree that I'd like to see a video of this hyung. I can try it out from looking at the description, but without visual aid, I'm fairly certain I'd get it wrong. Even at that, it doesn't look half as exciting as, say, one of the palche forms, or sip soo, or jinte. [/FONT]





JT_the_Ninja said:


> [/FONT][/FONT]


 
Don't have a video, not a very good witht the techno stuff, maybe I can find someone to help me out in that area.

This hyung is personal to me because is was taught to me by my instructor a long time ago for being a good student, he only taught it to about 10 or 12 people out of hundreds, to me it was a special gift that I also happen to really like.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 11, 2007)

mjd said:


> Step 4,5,6 are the same as 1,2,3 only done at 180 degrees, the knife hands should plural as double (Ssang soo do malk ki), other than that makes perfect since to me.



That's what I also found odd; there's no changeup of which hands do what, except on that move. Usually, you do a sequence with one side, and then mirror it on the other side. This has the same motion for both sides of the 180-degree angle. 



> Starting from: left lead leg front stance with reverse punch, moving to right front kick bring hands to left side then executing double center knifes ending in fighting stance with the right leg in front.



That still doesn't rectify in my mind how you'd do a middle knife hand block with your left hand in front while your right foot is forward. 



> It's a term my instructor used for military stance, or guard, maybe I can explain, example would be 2nd move in Pinean Odan.


Oh, that move, seen in pyung ahn o dan and palche so, among possible others. So...like pyung ahn e dan or sa dan? I think I get it now.




> This hyung is personal to me because is was taught to me by my instructor a long time ago for being a good student, he only taught it to about 10 or 12 people out of hundreds, to me it was a special gift that I also happen to really like.


Understand the sentiment. My SBN has taught me forms early before, when there was nobody else in class and he figured I was ready. Still don't know how solid of a form this is.

You know what, I'm gonna take a close look at this description and see if I can't use my porch to show you how _I'm_ interpreting it. Then you can tell me how off or on I am.


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## Tez3 (Jun 11, 2007)

I've trying it out but get stuck when I don't know some of the moves, they obviously have a different name than the ones I'm used too.

1. Action hands?

7. cup and saucer I assume is what I know as preparation stance

12. Fork hand grab? 

13. tornado kick, is this a crescent kick?

15. says jumping kick, is this a straight jump or a jumping scissors kick?

Para 12 baffles me quite a bit!

Would the left hand knife hand while in right front stance actually be with palm up, as in Pyung Sa Dan? There it's left stance while right hand is knife hand and works well.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 12, 2007)

While I'm looking at this form, let me try to break down all the forms from which this borrows:

1 and 4: pyong ahn cho dan (sorta) --- in fact, moves 1 and 2 _are_ the first part of our #2 pyong ahn il soo sik, based on pyong ahn cho dan.

last half of 7, and 10&11: pyong ahn ee dan

last half of 13: pyong ahn o dan and pahl che deh

14: pyong ahn o dan

15: jin teh (with a change of block at the end)

Are there more?

This is very much a tournament form, put together from bits and pieces of other forms. The moves themselves have merit, but I'm not so sure about the whole. 

btw, I'd like to know what "action hands," "fork hand grab," and "horse back stance" mean as well.

oh, and how do you say the name of the form? "Tang Soo Two," "Tang Soo Ee," or what?


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## mjd (Jun 14, 2007)

Let me see if I can clear up some of these questions, the terms used in the document are terms that came from my original instructor and are more than likely unique to him.



Tez3 said:


> 1. Action hands?


This term was use to describe using both hands/arms in a technique providing coverage, counter force, and balance.



Tez3 said:


> 7. cup and saucer I assume is what I know as preparation stance?


Yes, preparation stance or military stance



Tez3 said:


> 12. Fork hand grab?


Pyun Sohn - like the throat grab or the hand position for grabing of the lapel, hand vertical 



Tez3 said:


> 13. tornado kick, is this a crescent kick?


This is a 360 degree jump spinning kick, starting from a left lead leg fighting stance, right (back) leg outside/inside cresent kick, continuing into a jump spinning (left) right leg outside/inside cresent kick. 
(2 kicks, one jump spin, all continous - tornado)



Tez3 said:


> 15. says jumping kick, is this a straight jump or a jumping scissors kick?


Edan Ahp Cha Ki (2 step jump front snap kick)



Tez3 said:


> Para 12 baffles me quite a bit!


visualize attaker approaching your left 90 degrees, attacker grabs your extended left hand with his left and grabs your left shoulder with his right, to escape reach under with you right grabbing his lapel or throat, you yank your left hand back to release, the foot movement is to crank up torque, counter is to step back and strike with left knife to attacker's right side of his neck or temple.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> While I'm looking at this form, let me try to break down all the forms from which this borrows:?


Yes, this Hyung takes alot of moves from many traditional hyungs, good observation.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> btw, I'd like to know what "action hands," "fork hand grab," and "horse back stance" mean as well.?


Action hands and Fork hands above, horse back stance is Ki ma Jah Seh like to the nihanchi hyungs, please forgive my spelling.



JT_the_Ninja said:


> oh, and how do you say the name of the form? "Tang Soo Two," "Tang Soo Ee," or what?


Tang Soo Two

I hope this helps, cause i am not doing a very good job of describing these terms used in the written document. It was writtin many years ago and maybe these terms are out dated or something or just a strange slang from the writer.

Sorry for the confusion.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 15, 2007)

mjd said:


> This is a 360 degree jump spinning kick, starting from a left lead leg fighting stance, right (back) leg outside/inside cresent kick, continuing into a jump spinning (left) right leg outside/inside cresent kick.
> (2 kicks, one jump spin, all continous - tornado)



So do I take it your right foot isn't supposed to land after the first outside/inside kick? That'd be pretty hard to do. I interpreted it as one outside/inside kick, touch the foot briefly, then do the 360-degree 2nd outside-inside kick. Which one do you mean.

Interesting form, especially with the defensive grab.


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## mjd (Jun 16, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> So do I take it your right foot isn't supposed to land after the first outside/inside kick? That'd be pretty hard to do. I interpreted it as one outside/inside kick, touch the foot briefly, then do the 360-degree 2nd outside-inside kick. Which one do you mean..


 
This is the one I mean (one outside/inside kick, touch the foot briefly, then do the 360-degree 2nd outside-inside kick.)

Your interputation is correct, it's a little tricky but once you get the foot placement it flows smoothly in a circular movement. Look at it like 2 completely separate kicks but make them continuous. As the first kick comes to completion flow into the rotation of the 2nd kick, right foot will go to the floor inplace of the left at the same time rotating 360, then as your rotation comes back around execute the jump outside/inside cresent kick with the right foot. Don't start the jump to early, make sure you can get around in the jump.

If you are a good jumper and flexable with good technical kicking, the tornado kick is a beautiful kick, the flow and balance is very smooth, try doing 5 or 6 in one continuous flow across the dojang floor.

Here is an exercise you do with this kick using a partner that is pretty cool. - face each other guarded up in fighting stances, one will attack with a kick, defender stepping back ~180 execute lead hand block to the attacker's kick, then flow into the tornado kick. It can be done with either side, various block or kicks, play and have fun.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Jun 17, 2007)

Heh...well, all I can say to that is check out the credits for my latest video on youtube: 




I usually do the combination with back wheel kicks and jump round kicks, with the inside-outside variation as an ender. Or I'll just mix them up and keep going across the room. Good fun, but it gets you good and dizzy if you're not careful.


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## mjd (Jun 17, 2007)

Cool tube show JT, I watched your Sip Soo Hyung, good form, you say your with ITF, you guy's do it alot different then I do, I was surprized to see soo much variation in the techniques, but very good performance.


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