# Interesting  " home" study course



## bigfootsquatch (Apr 29, 2014)

http://www.ninja-learning-network.com/Home_Page.html

This seems to be the most legitimate home study course I've read about. Testing for shodan is in person, the school will contact the closest schools to the student, and live training is encouraged. There is even a reference to another home study course out there not having the greatest reputation. ( you'll never guess who lol )

i wasnt sure sure where to post this ( maybe general martial arts discussion instead of here). I think the concept is great. A mixture of video references and feedback in conjunction with live training, help finding a place to train, and no black belt video testing.

and before it is said, I know there's no replacement for live training.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 29, 2014)

It would be much, much, much better to find a dojo close to you and train.  Learning solely from video is just not a good idea.


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 29, 2014)

Not to be rude, but I wasn't asking for myself. I was talking about the concept. The concept has nothing to do with learning soley from video.


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## drop bear (Apr 29, 2014)

They are coming out in a lot of styles. I have never met someone who has done one. So I have no idea ho good they are as a concept.

I sometimes idely considered getting some Gracie belts that way.

At-home Training Programs


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 29, 2014)

I'm glad you are not thinking about it for yourself. 

Really these are physical skill sets and they require people present to work them.  They also require an instructor present to notice your mistakes and point out the details that you miss.  This is all very, very, very, very hard to do with video training.  Videos, books, etc. are actually really good but used as a reference for experienced practitioners in that system.  In IRT I have lots of books, videos and yes even some for online training.  The thing is they are for IRT practitioner's to hone their skill sets that they learn under a qualified teacher.  Take for instance today I was showing 10 count to a new student.  This was his second class learning it and he was really starting to make it work. After training it for quite a while I mentioned to him that between now and the next class he should check out our 10 count video. (shot years ago on an old camera)

Here: 





Now this is great reference for him because he has had some instruction.  Yet, it would be a poor way for someone to learn without someone there to point out there mistakes. (of course there is always someone with advanced martial skills that could pick it up easily)  Still videos, books, etc. are a great reference for a practitioner in a system but not that great to learn directly from.  You will miss the details!


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 29, 2014)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I'm glad you are not thinking about it for yourself.
> 
> Really these are physical skill sets and they require people present to work them.  They also require an instructor present to notice your mistakes and point out the details that you miss.  This is all very, very, very, very hard to do with video training.  Videos, books, etc. are actually really good but used as a reference for experienced practitioners in that system.  In IRT I have lots of books, videos and yes even some for online training.  The thing is they are for IRT practitioner's to hone their skill sets that they learn under a qualified teacher.  Take for instance today I was showing 10 count to a new student.  This was his second class learning it and he was really starting to make it work. After training it for quite a while I mentioned to him that between now and the next class he should check out our 10 count video. (shot years ago on an old camera)
> 
> ...




I agree with you 100%!

The concepts discussed on the website refer to videos and video evaluation WITH live instruction from time to time, and having a training partner. Part of the program consists of them finding you the closest school to visit, and they contact the school for you as well.

seems like a pretty good set up that is lacking in your standard homestudy course.


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## Chris Parker (Apr 30, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> Ninjutsu Bujinkan Ninja Training Black belt Video Course
> 
> This seems to be the most legitimate home study course I've read about. Testing for shodan is in person, the school will contact the closest schools to the student, and live training is encouraged. There is even a reference to another home study course out there not having the greatest reputation. ( you'll never guess who lol )
> 
> ...



The concept and set-up of this "course" is, I suppose, the best compromise that could be hoped for&#8230; but there's no way I'd recommend it. The person teaching it&#8230; well, I have yet to see anything good from him at all. For example: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/240-weapon-videos/89138-ninja-training-video-blog-katana.html


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 30, 2014)

Chris Parker said:


> The concept and set-up of this "course" is, I suppose, the best compromise that could be hoped for but there's no way I'd recommend it. The person teaching it well, I have yet to see anything good from him at all. For example: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/240-weapon-videos/89138-ninja-training-video-blog-katana.html





After a little research, he is apparently one of Richard Van Donk's students.

I don't think rank indicates ANYTHING in the Bujinkan. Apparently, rank is given to anyone with the right connections. I bet with the right guys I could get promoted to shodan if I learned to call my BJJ moves by their Japanese counterparts. :boing1:

(JOKING) 

I could care less about rank. I appreciate you guys giving me the info in the other thread. Have any of you guys heard of Jeff Walker (Arkanas Bujinkan Dojo Online - Instructors)

He's about as close as George Kohler and Luke Molitor. I need to research Genbukan a bit more before I even think of making a decision.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 30, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> The concepts discussed on the website refer to videos and video evaluation WITH live instruction from time to time, and having a training partner. Part of the program consists of them finding you the closest school to visit, and they contact the school for you as well.
> 
> seems like a pretty good set up that is lacking in your standard homestudy course.



If Mr. Roemke intends his videos to be a supplemental training tool for students who have a regular dojo, that's fine.  Since he's selling packages for kyu testing/evaluations that would seem to indicate he's also targeting people who are not training with a teacher in-person.

Speaking of rank evaluations, he seems to be walking a fine line by stating students can "pass" a rank test (his quotation marks) and receive confirmation of their "passed" status, but they will have to pay extra for the official rank certificate from Japan.  He does appear to be charging the standard rate for official rank certificates, so that's not a problem. I just wonder about the students who may end up thinking they are officially ranked within the Bujinkan and may find out later that they are not.  

Also, I know that shodan is not a high rank in the Bujinkan. Still it seems that 8 hours of video to cover everything from 9th kyu to 1st dan isn't very much. Whatever you may think about the Gracie University, they've got probably a couple of hundred hours of video instruction, with more being added every few months.


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## bigfootsquatch (Apr 30, 2014)

I don't think there is such a thing is high rank in the Bujinkan. I think there is the skilled and unskilled. That's about it honestly. 

Gracie University isn't bad if you're training somewhere or at least making a few seminars. Most of jiu jitsu is going to be learned during rolling. Make sure you have a partner and roll a bunch if you go that route. They've changed to a "technical" blue belt now. Also, don't get caught up in the hype of them being the only real jiu jitsu. It'll save you years of heart ache. Ask me how I know.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 30, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I agree with you 100%!
> 
> The concepts discussed on the website refer to videos and video evaluation WITH live instruction from time to time, and having a training partner. Part of the program consists of them finding you the closest school to visit, and they contact the school for you as well.
> 
> seems like a pretty good set up that is lacking in your standard homestudy course.



 i disagree because video is still the first and primary source of instruction.  It should never be such.  video should only be used as a reference, AFTER the skill has been solidly learned and trained.  

if this program includes periodic meetings with real teachers, but the initial instruction is thru video, then it's backwards at best. 

i can never get onboard video instruction as an acceptable substitute.  Best to do something else, either train a different method with a real instructor, or if that is not available, then spend your time and energy on fitness: running, biking, swimming, weight training, soccer, etc.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 30, 2014)

*Very well put Flying Crane*.  I would rep you if I could! :highfive:


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 30, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> After a little research, he is apparently one of Richard Van Donk's students.
> 
> I don't think rank indicates ANYTHING in the Bujinkan. Apparently, rank is given to anyone with the right connections. I bet with the right guys I could get promoted to shodan if I learned to call my BJJ moves by their Japanese counterparts. :boing1:
> 
> ...



I do not know Jeff Walker but looking at the instructor bio it say's he makes yearly trips to Japan to train with Hatsumi Sensei and the Japanese Shihan.  That is really important in the Bujinkan.  Former military and retired.  That in my opinion is also a plus!  Check it out and see if it is for you!


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## Chris Parker (May 1, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> After a little research, he is apparently one of Richard Van Donk's students.



Well&#8230; that's mentioned at the end of the thread I linked&#8230; so&#8230; 



bigfootsquatch said:


> I don't think rank indicates ANYTHING in the Bujinkan. Apparently, rank is given to anyone with the right connections. I bet with the right guys I could get promoted to shodan if I learned to call my BJJ moves by their Japanese counterparts. :boing1:
> 
> (JOKING)



Hmm&#8230; look, don't take it the wrong way, but you don't have any actual experience with the Bujinkan (or related arts) yet, right? What do you actually know of the ranking system used? What experience do you have with it? Do you know how the ranks are actually given/attained, or are you just going off partial (and potentially biased) comments on the internet?

What I'm saying is that you're potentially not in a position to really say what is or isn't yet&#8230; questions are your friend, thinking you already have the answers isn't.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I could care less about rank. I appreciate you guys giving me the info in the other thread. Have any of you guys heard of Jeff Walker (Arkanas Bujinkan Dojo Online - Instructors)



I've come across the occasional mention, but nothing of note, just a name in passing. I'm far less interested in the idea of "makes annual trips to Japan" as being indicative of anything other than them being out of the country a few times a year (or at least once a year). Not that going to Japan is a bad thing, far from it, just that the complete lack of quality control means that someone who visits Japan regularly might be much lower in quality, understanding, knowledge etc than one who doesn't. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. That said, I do agree with Brian, and re-iterate both his and my comments earlier, that the only way to tell is to visit the school and go from there. Don't be too concerned about internet credentials.



bigfootsquatch said:


> He's about as close as George Kohler and Luke Molitor. I need to research Genbukan a bit more before I even think of making a decision.



Without getting first-hand experience, what could you want to know about the Genbukan? I could answer some queries, and you might attract the attention of Troy Wideman, a peer of George Kohler's (and the head of the Genbukan in Canada), who sometimes posts here.


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## bigfootsquatch (May 1, 2014)

I was referencing the lack of quality control when I was talking about renaming the moves to their Japanese counterparts. You guys were talking about the lack of quality control, and how high ranking instructors don't perform as should. I was just making a bad joke about that. So ranking must not be that hard to achieve.


Regardless, as I said, I'm not worried about rank. I'm interested in learning the art. I've been contacting some of the instructors mentioned already. 


Thanks for the help everyone.


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## Chris Parker (May 1, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I was referencing the lack of quality control when I was talking about renaming the moves to their Japanese counterparts.



Except that's not a lack of quality control, that's a lack of consistency in curriculum. Not quite the same thing 



bigfootsquatch said:


> You guys were talking about the lack of quality control, and how high ranking instructors don't perform as should. I was just making a bad joke about that. So ranking must not be that hard to achieve.



Sure but we were talking from knowledge and experience you're not yet at the point where you could even really recognise it, honestly. If we were to put up three instructors showing the same kata, would you be able to tell which are good and which aren't? You could certainly say which you prefer but that's not the same thing either.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Regardless, as I said, I'm not worried about rank. I'm interested in learning the art. I've been contacting some of the instructors mentioned already.



That's the thing, though you say you're not concerned about rank, but it's not that easy to get away from. When it comes to traditional Japanese martial arts (and, to be clear, I'm not grouping the Bujinkan in that listing) ranking, or more realistically, licensing, is/was an indication of knowledge and understanding of a particular arts methods and teachings. Without it, there was no authority recognised to pass the art on. With modern ranking, the ideal was that it was an indication of the level of skill attained in that art (that's the way the application of Dan rankings was intended). The problem with having such lax ranking practices, and with saying that you don't care about rank, is that it denies any point even having any rank there in the first place. If rank doesn't indicate skill (and many in the Bujinkan will say such), and doesn't show knowledge and understanding (and again, many in the Bujinkan will say such), and doesn't necessarily denote seniority or a hierarchy (the third reason for rank and, once more, many in the Bujinkan will attest to this), then there is no point having rank at all.

So how do you know if what you're getting is any good? If you can't trust rank to tell you the level of understanding and knowledge, an indication of how far into a systems teachings someone is, or of how skilled they are in that system, what's it for? If you're not concerned with getting rank, why pick the group that gives it freely without needing anything shown to attain it? Why not go for the organisations where rank is earned, clearly and demonstrably? If you don't care about getting rank yourself, the longer time taken in the more consistent organisation won't be an issue.

Realistically, you have to care about rank to a degree. You have to care about what that rank means, whether it's yours, or your instructors if it doesn't mean anything, how do you know that your instructors are actually teaching you the art? That's the big question here (and yes, I know the standard answer to that is "do they go to Japan regularly?", but really, that's a cop out, as there are just as many bad instructors that do go to Japan regularly as any other maybe more, honestly). Without the rank, and the meaning behind it, who knows what you're getting?

The last part, where you say you've begun to contact the instructors already, is the best plan you could have.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Thanks for the help everyone.



All the best with it.


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## bigfootsquatch (May 1, 2014)

I think you misunderstood my post, and that is my fault for being unclear.

Let me address a few issues that may help clarify.

I understand the importance in rank. I'm in a style that take a long time to get to black belt. I train 6-7 days a week of (what I consider) hard training. I would venture to say that Brazilian Jiu jitsu is one of the harder styles to achieve black belt in. I've been training 2008 with the same consistency and have managed to make it to brown. I still have a few years to ago for my black belt. That's fine. I don't care. I'm more interested in teaching and training than worrying about my next belt. When it's time, my instructor will promote me.  I also studied taekwondo from 1994-2010. Within that timeframe I was able to get to 3rd dan black belt.  It was not an easy school to be promoted in. Iv'e also studied some aikido, judo, and tai chi (seminars, classes, etc).

I do NOT care about obtaining rank for myself in another style. I understand what the ranking system is suppose to mean and what it should represent. With your reasoning, I am just as well off to go study with Richard Van Donk since he 15th dan, but you talk about his skill being lacking (and I agree). Mark Roemke's skills are evidently lacking too though he is 14th dan.  This is why I don't care if the guy is 5th dan or 15th dan. I am interested in learning Budo Taijutsu. Why don't I seek something else with tougher training requirements? 

What does that have to do with anything? How many schools of Taijutsu are there? There's Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan. Only two of those schools are within any feasible driving distance for me. That's why I asked about the schools listed.

As for the forms, I can hopefully tell bad technique from good by now, though I may not know about the specific sequence (or the subtleties of taijutsu). If I can't tell the difference, then whats the point of even studying? I may be learning crap, and I am too stupid to know it! Lol


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## Chris Parker (May 2, 2014)

bigfootsquatch said:


> I think you misunderstood my post, and that is my fault for being unclear.



Fair enough.



bigfootsquatch said:


> Let me address a few issues that may help clarify.



Cool.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I understand the importance in rank. I'm in a style that take a long time to get to black belt. I train 6-7 days a week of (what I consider) hard training. I would venture to say that Brazilian Jiu jitsu is one of the harder styles to achieve black belt in. I've been training 2008 with the same consistency and have managed to make it to brown. I still have a few years to ago for my black belt. That's fine. I don't care. I'm more interested in teaching and training than worrying about my next belt. When it's time, my instructor will promote me.  I also studied taekwondo from 1994-2010. Within that timeframe I was able to get to 3rd dan black belt.  It was not an easy school to be promoted in. Iv'e also studied some aikido, judo, and tai chi (seminars, classes, etc).



Okay.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I do NOT care about obtaining rank for myself in another style. I understand what the ranking system is suppose to mean and what it should represent. With your reasoning, I am just as well off to go study with Richard Van Donk since he 15th dan, but you talk about his skill being lacking (and I agree). Mark Roemke's skills are evidently lacking too though he is 14th dan.  This is why I don't care if the guy is 5th dan or 15th dan.



No, that's not quite my reasoning&#8230; it gets a fair bit more complicated than that, and really comes down to exactly what you're after. The point with the ranking is that it's an indication of whether or not what you're getting is what you're looking for in the first place.



bigfootsquatch said:


> I am interested in learning Budo Taijutsu.



Ah, cool, now we're getting to it.

You have one choice, then. Bujinkan. No-one else. Who specifically within the Bujinkan is up to you, of course.

But here's a question&#8230; why Budo Taijutsu? And do you understand what it actually is, and why it's different to what you'll get in a Genbukan school?



bigfootsquatch said:


> Why don't I seek something else with tougher training requirements?
> 
> What does that have to do with anything?



The line separation threw me, but I'm assuming these are follow on questions&#8230; in which case, it's a better indication of what you'll receive from the study. A school with tighter (not tougher) training/ranking requirements will be far more specific and definite about what you're being taught, and the skill level you need to demonstrate/attain. Again, that comes down to what you're after.



bigfootsquatch said:


> How many schools of Taijutsu are there? There's Bujinkan, Genbukan, Jinenkan. Only two of those schools are within any feasible driving distance for me. That's why I asked about the schools listed.



Here's where it gets tricky&#8230; none of those are schools of "taijutsu"&#8230; although they all have taijutsu as part of what they teach. Mind you, so does Aikido. And Asayama Ichiden Ryu. And a number of other traditional systems. But, in each case, the term refers to something specific to that art/system. Within the various "Ninjutsu/X-Kan" groups, the Bujinkan teaches Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, the Genbukan teaches Genbukan Ninpo Taijutsu (not the same thing), and the Jinenkan teaches Jissen Kobudo (not referred to as "taijutsu" at all, except where the terminology is employed by specific ryu-ha). Then you have the other split-away systems, the largest being Stephen Hayes' Toshindo, schools such as the UK's BBD, our schools here in Australia, a number of Genbukan split-offs that I know of, Shinken Taijutsu, and more. And all of them are different, even though they come from a similar origin point.



bigfootsquatch said:


> As for the forms, I can hopefully tell bad technique from good by now, though I may not know about the specific sequence (or the subtleties of taijutsu). If I can't tell the difference, then whats the point of even studying? I may be learning crap, and I am too stupid to know it! Lol



It's (again) not quite that simple, though&#8230; There are plenty of discussions of the minutia of kata, and what is "correct", as well as what isn't, and, particularly in the Bujinkan, that can have quite a fair degree of variation. For instance, here are a range of performances of the first kata in one of our systems, Gyokko Ryu, called Koku. It is shown here by a number of experienced practitioners (each with decades in the art - with one exception), and you can see that there's quite a distinction between the way they're all showing the kata itself:































So&#8230; which are "good"? Which are "correct"? Are there "correct" ones that aren't "good"? Are there "good" ones that aren't "correct"? Some of these people are well-respected, some less so&#8230; but, of course, the reasons for the respect or lack is needed to be known as well. Importantly, as well, are any of these like what you're seeing in the dojo you visit? Can you tell? Often, in these arts, things can look superficially the same, but are actually quite different.

Look, I'm not trying to be difficult here&#8230; honestly&#8230; but, with these arts, the simple fact that the context is so far removed from what most people expect means that the more common litmus tests don't necessarily apply&#8230; things like being able to fight aren't really that important&#8230; it might be a useful side-benefit, but it's not the point. That gets muddied by people (instructors and students) who present it as being about modern combat/fighting&#8230; it can be applied in that context, but that's not the way the systems are designed (speaking of the ryu-ha here). In other words, what is "good" in BJJ is not good in this context&#8230; same with TKD, Aikido, and so on. Oh, and for the record, I have experience in each of those as well.


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## Meitetsu (May 4, 2014)

Nice work listing those videos like that! If you are going to compare and contrast, thats the way to do it.


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