# Time In Grade



## MJS (Oct 24, 2007)

Once someone reaches the Black Belt levels, what do you feel should be the standard time in each grade?  Does your school have a standard for each BB level or do you take it on a case by case basis?


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## RevIV (Oct 24, 2007)

These are tough standards and there always is a grey area.  I have owned and operated schools for over a decade.  I have been teaching since i was a teen putting in no less than 20 hours a week when i was younger- and a lot more now.  with that said, i am on the same testing grades as the students.
1-2 years (mostly 2) to go from 1st-2nd
3years for 3rd
4yrs for 4th
and so on.  I do have a small problem with that because most students do only 2 hours a week.  in one week i will have put in more hours then a lot of students do in 6 months.  
It took me 4 years to go from 3rd-4th, but the same teachers were going to test me for 5th in 3 years.  I accomplished 5th before my goal and i am more than happy with my rank and do not plan on going anywhere soon.  As far as my students are concerned my rank is the highest besides my teacher who they see about 6 times a year.
I like Doc Chapel's thoughts on this.  He does it like college hours.  Put the right amount of hours, show your competency and test. (at least thats what i got out of some of his other posts)
sorry if this one is confusing, so much in my head and i have to run and do a private lesson now.
Jesse


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## Sukerkin (Oct 24, 2007)

It's a good point that *Rev* raises where he notes that different people will have different 'work rates' whilst in grade and that that should impact to a degree on when they are ready to move on (yeah, MA pun attack, not done that in a while!).

The rule of thumb of an increasing number of years for each Dan grade up to, say, 5th is a useable yardstick but it shold only ever be a guide.  For the higher ranks, then you enter the world of politics, administration and peer-groups and the 'gaps' can be purely arbitrary as they often depend upon perceived contribution to the art.


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## LawDog (Oct 24, 2007)

I and my affiliates require at least 6 hours of floor time each week to receive credit for one years training. These hours are counted and if a student is short then he has to make them up. After the proper time in grade has been completed then the students ability will checked by his own instructor. If he/she is up to par then he will be tested by a qualified board of examiners. There are no pre tests.
Our public and private school systems require a certain amount of class time no matter how good a student may be.
Just our way.


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## KenpoDave (Oct 24, 2007)

Our system follows roughly what Rev IV said.  But, time in grade is only one component.  There is a difference between being a non-active 3rd black for 4 years, vs. actively learning, training, and teaching during that time.

Higher dan ranks are loosely based on:

Time in grade
Time in the martial arts
Age
Contribution to the art/system

and of course, 

Grandmaster's preference


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## fastfist1 (Oct 24, 2007)

This is a very interesting discussion. I'm one of those M.A. who hasn't "tested" for rank since I received my San Dan 14 years ago. I "went off on my own" after getting fed up with the politics in my particular style-specific organization (an organization I joined when my original Master passed). I found other B.B. to work out and practice with both in my style and from others. I've always maintained my root style which happens to be Isshinryu and it's weapons, kata and kihon. However, now my martial knowledge includes aspects of the other arts I've studied (BJJ, Kickboxing, Aikido and P.P.F.). I've also (at 46 years old and 26 years of study) decided that my rank doesn't matter all that much. I know what I know and more importantly what I can do.

However, there are days when I think ... I wonder what rank I would be if I was "tested".


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## MJS (Oct 26, 2007)

Most of the methods I've seen used are the ones that a few have already described here...2 yrs from 1st-2nd degree, etc.  Sure, someone who teaches full time is going to put in more than the average student who comes to class 2-3 times a week, but I suppose once those students reach a certain level, usually the advanced ranks, assisting during class is taken into consideration in addition to their regular training.

I'm sure my next comment will touch on another thread about high rank, but, and maybe its just a pet peeve with me, but I do think that age should play a part, as some have already said here.  Something just doesnt look right to me, to see a 20yr old 7th degree Black Belt.  I'm sure it has something to do with someone starting their training at 4yrs old, so putting in 30yrs, could see them at a high rank at a young age.  Then again, I always picture someone wearing an 8th, 9th or 10th a bit older than 20 or 30.


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## jks9199 (Oct 26, 2007)

Well, you won't see a 20 year old with anything more than a first level black belt; you must be at least 18 to test for black belt.  After first level, it's a minimum of 3 years of "active training" documented by attending clinics, etc.  Beyond that, it's a point system, including PT test, a paper, and skills demonstrations.  After 3rd or 4th level, the minimum times increase, eventually to 10 years minimum between grades.


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## Fushichou (Oct 26, 2007)

In the system I study with, the minimum time to go from 1st Kyu to Shodan is 1 year, with 1 year minimum to go to Nidan, 1 more year to Sandan, 2 more years to Yondan, and 3 more years to Godan.  These are minimums, I know many black belts that have spent way more than this time than that before promotion.  My first instructor spent three years before going for Nidan, and five more before going for Sandan.  The Nidan test also has the highest failure rate of all tests in the whole system (it was designed to be particularly hard, so that you couldn't easily rest on your laurels when you got to Shodan, you had a lot of very demanding material to learn right out of the gate.).


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## kidswarrior (Oct 28, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> Our system follows roughly what Rev IV said.  But, time in grade is only one component.  There is a difference between being a non-active 3rd black for 4 years, vs. actively learning, training, and teaching during that time.
> 
> Higher dan ranks are loosely based on:
> 
> ...


This seems to me to nicely dovetail the critical components, while excluding the bureaucratic 'rules for rules sake' nonsense.


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## Gentle Fist (Nov 13, 2007)

Actually not sure what it is in my Kenpo system.  But in Judo/Jiujitsu at dan rank it is basically whatever dan rank you currently hold you must stay that rank for that many years.  Example 7th dan must be a 7th dan for 7 years, 4th dan for 4 years, 9th dan for 9 years.  There is also a min age for each rank which is 18 for shodan, 20 for nidan, then 5 years of age for each rank going up to 9th, then 70 for 10th dan.

So we don't have 33 year olds holding 10th dans :shooter:


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## KenpoDave (Nov 13, 2007)

fastfist1 said:


> This is a very interesting discussion. I'm one of those M.A. who hasn't "tested" for rank since I received my San Dan 14 years ago. I "went off on my own" after getting fed up with the politics in my particular style-specific organization (an organization I joined when my original Master passed). I found other B.B. to work out and practice with both in my style and from others. I've always maintained my root style which happens to be Isshinryu and it's weapons, kata and kihon. However, now my martial knowledge includes aspects of the other arts I've studied (BJJ, Kickboxing, Aikido and P.P.F.). I've also (at 46 years old and 26 years of study) decided that my rank doesn't matter all that much. I know what I know and more importantly what I can do.
> 
> However, there are days when I think ... I wonder what rank I would be if I was "tested".


 
In my system, provided you knew the material and had stayed active, you could test for 5th.


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## kuntawguro (Nov 13, 2007)

wow, if all  martial arts clubs followed these guidelines- there wouldn't be 9 yr old 3rd degree black belts. Imagine that.  ( he says sarcastically )

 In our  organization time in grade is not a concern- knowledge, skill, and ability is. Once a person can complete the skill level for the rank  they are going for- they can test. Problem is, most get lazy after they reach 1st degree. They don't  seek the additional knowledge or the skills they need for the next rank.

 I think it is what they call the learning plateau.


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## Dr John M La Tourrette (Dec 21, 2007)

KenpoDave said:


> Our system follows roughly what RRR said. But, time in grade is only one component. There is a difference between being a non-active 3rd black for 4 years, vs. actively learning, training, and teaching during that time.
> 
> Higher dan ranks are loosely based on:
> 
> ...


 
I loved your post Dave, especially the last part.

And some lazy butts just don't get what you and many others here have said.
1. Mat Time, and time in grade.
2. Skill Level, waza, kata, weapons, sparring, etc. 
3. Teaching skills.
4. blab, blab, blab. 
(which is any criteria YOU as his trainer chooses! Heil Hitler!)

I sold a school once to a man that was the only student I had that had the money to buy it, and he wanted me to promote him because he bought the school. My greed was NOT one of my criteria for promotion of others.

He really didn't care.

He just formed his own Freestyle Fighting Arts and self-promoted himself with his own "in-pocket" BOD. I think I've heard this someplace else.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette


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