# Lowering The Drinking Age



## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-drinking0820.artaug20,0,1807550.story



> James F. Jones Jr., who is in his fifth year as president of Trinity College, knows he is incurring the wrath of Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and probably more than a few parents, by suggesting that the drinking age be lowered. But, frankly, he doesn't really care.
> 
> He's that fed up with the consequences of what he calls "the clandestine culture" of underage drinking among college students. It's a culture, Jones and other college administrators say, that has led to some very danger&shy;ous, and often tragic, behavior.
> 
> ...




http://www.courant.com/news/local/columnists/hc-ctstan0820-col,0,5753700.column




> The action by the presidents of some of the country's finest universities was a headline writer's dream.
> 
> Can't believe no one thought up  "School Prezes Say: More Teen Drinking."
> 
> ...


 
Your thoughts?


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## jarrod (Aug 20, 2008)

it's about time.

at 18, you can vote, marry, own firearms (for now), & enlist in the military.  you are an adult.  drinking is either legal for adults or it isn't.  it's unfair to not allow 18 year olds to drink, & it does encourage unhealthing drinking habits.  

jf


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## CaffeineKing (Aug 20, 2008)

Am I right that it's 18 - or perhaps earlier in some states? - to drive in the US, and 21 to drink? Being British, I think I'd prefer it the other way around. After all, I'd rather people got sensible about drinking before they started driving.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

"Honestly, I think it's a bad idea," said Andrew Schwartz, 21, a senior music major at the University of Hartford who was practicing the tuba on campus Monday. "It's not going to change anything except the amount of arrests for underage drinking. When I was a freshman I had no problem finding alcohol. ... I drank a lot as a freshman, and I'm sure if I could have just gone to the store, I would have drank a lot more."

The above was taken from one of the links I posted.  I agree with this person....things probably won't change.  And yes, I know...if people can go to war, they should be able to vote, drink, etc, etc.  Something else caught my eye...



> The question of who is mature enough to drink alcohol really comes down to defining a consistent age for adulthood. In America, we've pretty much anointed 18 as that number. As St. Joseph College President Pamela Reid Trotman says 18-year-olds "can serve in the military. They can vote. Some of them are gainfully employed."
> 
> So, yeah, let 'em drink. But let's make sure the consequences for driving while intoxicated are severe, as University of Hartford President Walter Harrison notes.


 
I find the last paragraph interesting.  I'm wondering if they're talking more of making sure the law is enforced moreso than it already is or are they talking about making changes to the existing law?  

I'm kinda split on this.  Part of me says keep it at 21 and the other part says change it, because personally, people are going to do things regardless of the law, and someone who drinks and drives at the age of 40 is no more responsible than someone who's 18.  A 40yo isn't showing too much concern for anything if they're drunk, and neither is an 18yo.


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## jkembry (Aug 20, 2008)

I had always thought it odd that the age of majority (18) and the legal drinking age were different.

I do believe that problem drinking...binge drinking and the like...are mainly issues with the attitudes that we are brought up with.  I grew up in a family of religious non-drinkers and the minute I could, I rebelled and was a drunk for the next 10 years or so.  After visiting overseas (Germany and Europe in particular) in the 1980s and watching how the youngsters there were taught about alcohol (a small beer or wine for the kids at dinner...etc.) I felt the attitude toward alcohol was much healthier.  I can't speak for today, but back then, there seemed to be much less issues with teen drinking in Europe.

Maybe these folks are right and attitudes will change...and drinking will be done more responsibly.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Aug 20, 2008)

I think it should be lowered. In Japan it's 20.

Just about every other country is 18.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age


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## Grenadier (Aug 20, 2008)

I have no problems with lowering the drinking age to 18.  Back when I was a child, in Ohio, the laws were "18 for beer, 21 for liquor."  Alcohol-related crimes weren't really any different than they are these days, from what a few friends still in that town have told me.  

The way I see it, if you are an adult at 18, then that's what you are.  If I can trust that you are of sufficient age to buy long guns (legally, of course!), then I can trust that you are of sufficient age to buy alcohol.

I'm also in agreement with President Harrison, that those who are arrested for DUI, should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.  After all, with privileges, come the burden of responsibility.


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## Big Don (Aug 20, 2008)

I don't really care, but, I wouldn't, I'm 35.


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## zDom (Aug 20, 2008)

What I think makes sense is:

Lower the drinking age to 18

RAISE the age for getting a drivers license to 21 for girls, 25 for boys.


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## MJS (Aug 20, 2008)

zDom said:


> RAISE the age for getting a drivers license to 21 for girls, 25 for boys.


 
Man, imagine if that every happened.  They've already made some big changes to the laws regarding new drivers here in CT, and people, kids and parents alike are already moaning, but if the age was ever raised...LOL...the state would never hear the end of it.  

IMO though, I do think that the teen driving laws a lax, and I for one, am glad to see the changes that have been made.


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## CoryKS (Aug 20, 2008)

zDom said:


> What I think makes sense is:
> 
> Lower the drinking age to 18
> 
> RAISE the age for getting a drivers license to 21 for girls, 25 for boys.


 
You are a devious man.  I like!

I'm not sure what to think of this, but I'd be willing to implement on a trial basis to see whether alcohol-related accidents/deaths rise.  I think the 18 year olds who are going to drink probably are already, but this will affect the ease with which they can procure alcohol and therefore possibly increase the frequency and quantity of their drinking.  

Obviously, the statistics will show that alcohol-related crimes decrease as a result of this, since possession will no longer be a crime for that age group.

I wonder how this will affect the under-18 crowd.  Would an 18 year old be more willing to buy for younger kids than a 21 year old?   A 21 year might rationalize that buying for an 18-20 year old is not that bad because "voting, enlistment, etc.".  What age would an 18 year old be willing to buy for?


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## pete (Aug 20, 2008)

prohibition didn't work in the '20s... why expect it to work now.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 20, 2008)

Well it's 18 here, but most of us didn't wait until our 18th birthday to have a drink 

I'm pretty sure that I have seen some studies that claimed a higher drinking age lead to more problems, more binge drinking, more alchohol related car accidents, etc.  

21 really doesn't make sense to me.  If a person can drive, vote, and get shot at for their country they should at least be able to have a beer as well


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Well it's 18 here, but most of us didn't wait until our 18th birthday to have a drink
> 
> *I'm pretty sure that I have seen some studies that claimed a higher drinking age lead to more problems, more binge drinking, more alchohol related car accidents, etc.  *
> 
> 21 really doesn't make sense to me.  If a person can drive, vote, and get shot at for their country they should at least be able to have a beer as well



The part in bold doesn't make sense. Can you find these studies on line? I don't know that I would raise the drinking age but I wouldn't lower it. 
 Lori


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## Twin Fist (Aug 20, 2008)

if you can join the military, you should damned well be able to buy a drink.

21 is arbitrary, and stupid.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 20, 2008)

jarrod said:


> it's about time.
> 
> at 18, you can vote, marry, own firearms (for now), & enlist in the military. you are an adult. drinking is either legal for adults or it isn't. it's unfair to not allow 18 year olds to drink, & it does encourage unhealthing drinking habits.
> jf


 
No the age to own firearms is 21 not 18.  Maybe to own a rifle but a pistol is 21.  Lowering the drinking age to 18 is ridiculous.  At 18 a person isn't mature enough to handle it.  The only reason that most people here on this thread are saying to lower it is because they are not of legal drinking age. Look at the immature actions of frat guys and sorority girls when they have parties and get drunk.  They fight, they drive, and they have sex (usually unprotected). Thats just what we need.


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## CaffeineKing (Aug 20, 2008)

It's 18 in the UK. Almost everything is. Reasoning is that if you're allowed to vote, then you should be able to drink. Thinking about it though, we should probably raise the age you're allowed to vote - then take everything else up with it!


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## jkembry (Aug 20, 2008)

CaffeineKing said:


> It's 18 in the UK. Almost everything is. Reasoning is that if you're allowed to vote, then you should be able to drink. Thinking about it though, we should probably raise the age you're allowed to vote - then take everything else up with it!



I'm not so sure about raising the age. 

<sarcasm>Perhaps it is better to lower the age of everything to...say around 10....then they can make decision before the bias's of society poison their minds. </sarcasm>


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 20, 2008)

I think that the voting age should be raised.  Most of the youth that vote don't have a clue of whats going on anyways.   They don't vote for someone because of thier issues IMO.  They vote based on either age or looks. IMO.


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

I hope this link works. http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap11.html
In any case it is a study showing that that lowering the age that makes it legal to buy alcohol *substantially *increases motor vehicle accidents involving alcohol, and increase the rate of fatal motor vehicle accidents. There's your reason not to lower the drinking age. 
Lori M


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## Andrew Green (Aug 20, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> I hope this link works. http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap11.html
> In any case it is a study showing that that lowering the age that makes it legal to buy alcohol *substantially *increases motor vehicle accidents involving alcohol, and increase the rate of fatal motor vehicle accidents. There's your reason not to lower the drinking age.
> Lori M




Which is only part of the issue.

Binge drinking on campus and at private parties is another.  Traffic accidents are people driving home from bars and clubs, binge drinking, and all of the accidents and dangers that come with that are another.  That is the aspect of this that the University professors are aiming at.

Now as for the study, there are a couple major problems with any such study.  A change in the law means a period of adjustment.  When you lower it you suddenly have a large group of people that were not able to drink in public, but now are.  There is bound to be some problems until the law "settles".

It is also stating a increase in accidents for that age group, but fails to compare accidents in that age group to accidents in other age groups.  It doesn't look like it makes a causal connection between the age, rather then just alcohol in general. 

Banning alcohol served in public places altogether would likely reduce DUI occurrences substantially, and as a result auto fatalities.  But, as history tells us, that leads to all sorts of other problems.  Of course if you only look at the pieces that support your desired result...

Lower aage limit will increase DUI occurrences, that is a given, you have more people on the road that are allowed to drink, or more importantly more people on the road allowed to go into bars and clubs.  But whether or not a higher or lower drinking age increases or decreases safety across the board is a more difficult issue then just looking at traffic stats.


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## pete (Aug 20, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> I think that the voting age should be raised. Most of the youth that vote don't have a clue of whats going on anyways. They don't vote for someone because of thier issues IMO. They vote based on either age or looks. IMO.


 first off, most of the youth don't vote anyway.  those that do would be considered to have a 'mental disorder ' according to your m.savage tagline, so's we see where your comin' from~~~

  but then again, most 'adults' whatever that means, don't vote either, and prob'ly those that do have less of a clue of what going on than the youth. 

  so let 'em drink a beer, and don't let 'em drive if they do... whether your 18-19-20-21-22-23...47...71...

  pete

(question to self: why am i in the study?)


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Well it's 18 here, but most of us didn't wait until our 18th birthday to have a drink
> 
> *I'm pretty sure that I have seen some studies that claimed a higher drinking age lead to more problems, more binge drinking, more alchohol related car accidents, etc.  *
> 
> 21 really doesn't make sense to me.  If a person can drive, vote, and get shot at for their country they should at least be able to have a beer as well



I am waiting for a study to back up this statement Mr. Green. Other that traffic stats which will tie into insurance stats, and that was a huge sample by the way, covering both Canada and the US, what else would you like to look at. Why aren't traffic stats good enough? Would you prefer autopsy reports. ER intake reports? Police blotter stats? What do you consider a reliable study?
Lori


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> if you can join the military, you should damned well be able to buy a drink.
> 
> 21 is arbitrary, and stupid.


All rules are arbitray.  Rules provide a means for simple people to live their lives without much thought.  That's why they work so well for most people.

I've never seen alcohol make anyone smarter or promote any positive change in any desirable attribute.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 20, 2008)

Either lower the drinkging age, or make 21 the legal age to enlist in the military and to be recognized as an adult. 

It's a double standard and it's ridiculous. 

If a person's old enough to deal with the stress of being shot at while serving in the military, then by God that person deserves to have a beer when they come off of patrol.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 20, 2008)

I think that driving should be raised to 18.  If you look at statistics young teenagers AND elderly people have more wrecks than any other group of people. I'm in the insurance business and know this as a fact.  Young people (16 to about 21 yrs old) are inexperienced and more risk taking than people who are older.  Elderly people are just not as "sharp" as they once were so they tend to have accidents a lot also.  Drinking should remain at 21.  Voting should be raised to 21 as well.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 20, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> I am waiting for a study to back up this statement Mr. Green. Other that traffic stats which will tie into insurance stats, and that was a huge sample by the way, covering both Canada and the US, what else would you like to look at. Why aren't traffic stats good enough? Would you prefer autopsy reports. ER intake reports? Police blotter stats? What do you consider a reliable study?
> Lori


 
If you're going to include traffic stats then I suppose you support making driving with cell phones illegal. 

The stats on that show that someone talking on a cell are just as likely to cause an accident as someone that's been drinking.


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## JadeDragon3 (Aug 20, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> If you're going to include traffic stats then *I suppose you support making driving with cell phones illegal*.
> 
> The stats on that show that someone talking on a cell are just as likely to cause an accident as someone that's been drinking.


 
Absolutely.  I've almost been in numerous accidents where some idiot was talking on thier cell phone and almost hit me because they weren't paying attention.  Its ridiculous.  some states already have that law.


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## Gordon Nore (Aug 20, 2008)

The legal drinking age here in Ontario is nineteen. Back in the days, it was twenty-one, then dropped to eighteen, then pushed up to nineteen. The rationale for putting at nineteen was that Ontario high schools used to have a grade thirteen. The thinking was that it was problematic having HS seniors who could drink and obtain alcohol for their peers.

My university actually had seven coffee shop / pubs on campus that served liquor from afternoon through the evening. While I wouldn't want to promote drinking, for health purposes, the reality is that teenagers on college campuses are going to drink. If it's illegal, they're going to drink covertly and therefore without supervision.

Personally I think the resources of colleges and universities are better invested in health education that enforcing laws against underage drinking.


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## CoryKS (Aug 20, 2008)

Ray said:


> I've never seen alcohol make anyone smarter or promote any positive change in any desirable attribute.


 
Except for getting prettier at closing time.


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> If you're going to include traffic stats then I suppose you support *making driving with cell phones illegal.
> *
> The stats on that show that someone talking on a cell are just as likely to cause an accident as someone that's been drinking.



Driving with cell phones no, driving while talking on a cell phone yes. A small but important legal distinction. And I still have not seen any studies to back up MR. Greens statements. Nor any hard core factual reason as to why a study covering 2 countries was problematic. Traffic and insurance stats are widely used and accepted. 
Lori M


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## Ray (Aug 20, 2008)

CoryKS said:


> Except for getting prettier at closing time.


Thanks but I'm always pretty.


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## celtic_crippler (Aug 20, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> Driving with cell phones no, driving while talking on a cell phone yes. A small but important legal distinction. And I still have not seen any studies to back up MR. Greens statements. Nor any hard core factual reason as to why a study covering 2 countries was problematic. Traffic and insurance stats are widely used and accepted.
> Lori M


 
I know. I'm a certified Underwriter and worked in the field for over 7 years. =-)

I simply have a severe dislike for double standards. If being 18 means being an adult in this country, then I see no reason not to let someone who is 18 drink...legally that is. 

Thing is, they drink regardless. IMHO, that actually leads to more DUI's than it would if it were legal. 

Think about it....you're 18...in college and are having a party. Since it's illegal you have to hide it. You have to have your party in a deserted field somewhere...you can't call a cab to pick you up in a deserted field, so you drive home. 

They're going to drink whether it's legal or not. I say, make it legal so that more 18 -20 year olds don't have to sneak around to do it. It also takes away the allure of rebellion by doing something against the status quo.

Countries that don't try to legislate morality like this have fewer problems with it as a result....that should tell you enough right there. We've created a lot of our own problems by trying to legistlate morality to the extreme.


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## Kacey (Aug 20, 2008)

18 was the legal age to drink across most, if not all, of this country, until about 24 years ago, at which point the federal government forced states with drinking ages less than 21 to raise the age _to_ 21, or lose millions in highway funding.  The decision to raise the age was not popular at the time it occurred (right about the time I was 18-21) with people of any age, and I don't recall it making any difference in how many people in that 18-21 age range drank - just in who went out to pick up the liquor.

There have been studies that show that people who grow up in cultures where drinking is strictly forbidden are more likely to get totally drunk when they do drink; having already committed the sin by having *a* drink, they are much more likely to continue on to getting drunk.  This is in contrast to people who grow up in cultures where drinking in moderation is acceptable grow up learning to drink in moderation; people from those societies have a lower alcoholism rate than the cultures in which drinking is forbidden.  Should we, then, allow drinking so that teens can learn to drink in moderation?  I don't know... but it's something to think about.

On a related note from within this thread, the reason so many teens have car accidents is lack of experience driving - raising the driving age will not solve their lack of experience; it will simply move it to an older age range.


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## teekin (Aug 20, 2008)

Kacey said:


> 18 was the legal age to drink across most, if not all, of this country, until about 24 years ago, at which point the federal government forced states with drinking ages less than 21 to raise the age _to_ 21, or lose millions in highway funding.  The decision to raise the age was not popular at the time it occurred (right about the time I was 18-21) with people of any age, and I don't recall it making any difference in how many people in that 18-21 age range drank - just in who went out to pick up the liquor.
> 
> _There have been studies that show that people who grow up in cultures where drinking is strictly forbidden are more likely to get totally drunk when they do drink; having already committed the sin by having *a* drink, they are much more likely to continue on to getting drunk.  This is in contrast to people who grow up in cultures where drinking in moderation is acceptable grow up learning to drink in moderation; people from those societies have a lower alcoholism rate than the cultures in which drinking is forbidden.  Should we, then, allow drinking so that teens can learn to drink in moderation?  I don't know... but it's something to think about.
> _
> On a related note from within this thread, the reason so many teens have car accidents is lack of experience driving - raising the driving age will not solve their lack of experience; it will simply move it to an older age range.



Kacey, I have seen studies that uphold this argument, true. It is something to think about. I don't know that lower the legal drinking age would have the same effect in N.A. as in Europe. Different cultures, different mindsets.

Lori m


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> No the age to own firearms is 21 not 18.  Maybe to own a rifle but a pistol is 21.  Lowering the drinking age to 18 is ridiculous.  At 18 a person isn't mature enough to handle it.  The only reason that most people here on this thread are saying to lower it is because they are not of legal drinking age. Look at the immature actions of frat guys and sorority girls when they have parties and get drunk.  They fight, they drive, and they have sex (usually unprotected). Thats just what we need.



Is that for your state or all states? I believe in Michigan it is 18 for a pistol.


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 20, 2008)

Kacey said:


> 18 was the legal age to drink across most, if not all, of this country, until about 24 years ago, at which point the federal government forced states with drinking ages less than 21 to raise the age _to_ 21, or lose millions in highway funding.  The decision to raise the age was not popular at the time it occurred (right about the time I was 18-21) with people of any age, and I don't recall it making any difference in how many people in that 18-21 age range drank - just in who went out to pick up the liquor.
> 
> There have been studies that show that people who grow up in cultures where drinking is strictly forbidden are more likely to get totally drunk when they do drink; having already committed the sin by having *a* drink, they are much more likely to continue on to getting drunk.  This is in contrast to people who grow up in cultures where drinking in moderation is acceptable grow up learning to drink in moderation; people from those societies have a lower alcoholism rate than the cultures in which drinking is forbidden.  Should we, then, allow drinking so that teens can learn to drink in moderation?  I don't know... but it's something to think about.
> 
> On a related note from within this thread, the reason so many teens have car accidents is lack of experience driving - raising the driving age will not solve their lack of experience; it will simply move it to an older age range.




When I was 13 the drinking age was 18. It was easier for kids in High school to get it. After it was raised to 19 and the 21 all it required was buying the alcohol of some guy over 21 to buy it for you. 

So, as to the studies about binge drinking and as stated by Kacey, once they have crossed the line they might as well go all out, I agree. The issue is that most people who grow up with alcohol on the table be it wine or beer and can have a small drink at home form my experience drink less in college because it is not such a big deal. To make it 18 for college would be good for the college crowd. I was 17 in college and so would have had to wait. I think it might help with the binge drinking, I do not think it would help with those that already drink a little. I do know those that went to college and had to get their stomaches pumped because they just drank too much. I do not remember hearing about as many when the drinking age was lower. 

As to drinking and driving, the current laws of the state I live in such that it is hard to drink anything and drive. If you are pulled over then it is easy to the the new limits and one is then put into the system. So if people understand cause and effect, i.e. drinking alcohol causes one to get drunk and have impaired reactions then they understand that they would be in lots of trouble if they drove. 


But, as stated first, I think the drinking age being lowered might help the college students, it might make it easier for the HS students. Of course as I stated if they are serious they can get it anyways. 


As to the 18 and military, well I think those in the military should be able to drink at the PX as long as they are in the military. If they get out and are still under age well they are a civilian they go back to those laws, even if they sometimes do not make sense.


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## MJS (Aug 21, 2008)

Grendel308 said:


> I hope this link works. http://www.indiana.edu/~engs/cbook/chap11.html
> In any case it is a study showing that that lowering the age that makes it legal to buy alcohol *substantially *increases motor vehicle accidents involving alcohol, and increase the rate of fatal motor vehicle accidents. There's your reason not to lower the drinking age.
> Lori M


 
Good point.  I think its safe to say that there are more accidents with teen drivers compared to older drivers.  I found this. So, going on those numbers, teen crashes will most likely increase.  

Like I said, regardless of the age, people will find ways to get around the law.  I really doubt that kids will be any more responsible if its lowered.  Only difference will be, is that it'll be easier to get.


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## Drac (Aug 21, 2008)

Andrew Green said:


> Well it's 18 here, but most of us didn't wait until our 18th birthday to have a drink


 
Ditto...Boons Farm Apple Wine...


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## Drac (Aug 21, 2008)

jarrod said:


> it's about time.
> 
> at 18, you can vote, marry, own firearms (for now), & enlist in the military. you are an adult. drinking is either legal for adults or it isn't. it's unfair to not allow 18 year olds to drink, & it does encourage unhealthing drinking habits.
> 
> jf


 
No argument from me..


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## jarrod (Aug 21, 2008)

JadeDragon3 said:


> No the age to own firearms is 21 not 18. Maybe to own a rifle but a pistol is 21. Lowering the drinking age to 18 is ridiculous. At 18 a person isn't mature enough to handle it. The only reason that most people here on this thread are saying to lower it is because they are not of legal drinking age. Look at the immature actions of frat guys and sorority girls when they have parties and get drunk. They fight, they drive, and they have sex (usually unprotected). Thats just what we need.


 
it was 18 at one point.  i'm 31 so the drinking age doesn't affect me directly, but fair is fair.  

btw, how are frat guys getting alcohol if they are under 21?  isn't it illegal?

we have a tendancy to place a tremendous taboo on underage, then at 21 kids are supposed to magically have maturity & a responsible attitude towards drinking.  of course they are going to overindulge.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 21, 2008)

jarrod said:


> btw, how are frat guys getting alcohol if they are under 21?  isn't it illegal?



It's a bit of a pain I imagine, not too much though.  But if they have any trouble they can always buy  Marijuana or some other drug instead, easier for them to get a hold of them until they hit the right age


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## kailat (Aug 21, 2008)

I personally believe the legal drinking age should be and always should of been 18yrs old.   I don't think its logical to have it at 21yrs old.   I think if your considered an adult at 18 then thats what you are.   Why can you vote, join the military, live on your own, get married etc and yet you cannot drink?   Here's one way you could think of it.   Have a legal 18 drinking permit that one pays for!  Kinda like a firearm conceal carry permit.  If the 18 yr old obeys the drinking laws and does not get in any trouble they could keep that permit till they are legal at 21.

  Ifthey get into trouble, caught drinkng and driving and or getting into trouble drinking they loose that licence (privledge) and has to wait till they turn 21 anyway...

 Just something to consider..

OTHER WISE just lower the damn age to 18 and be done with it.. i think its stupid to wait till 21 anyway.


 When I was 18 we used to go over to OHIO where it was legal to drink at 18 and in Indiana was 21.   Do you think that being 18 stopped us from drinking under 21yrs old?  If there was a will there was a way and we found it..


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## Kreth (Aug 21, 2008)

kailat said:


> I personally believe the legal drinking age should be and always should of been 18yrs old.   I don't think its logical to have it at 21yrs old.   I think if your considered an adult at 18 then thats what you are.   Why can you vote, join the military, live on your own, get married etc and yet you cannot drink?


I agree completely.
It's been a few days since I first read the original article, but I believe one of the main arguments for lowering the drinking age was to cut down on binge drinking. Having worked in bars in a college town (one school hear was listed as one of the top 10 party colleges several years in a row), I've seen firsthand the results of binge drinking. Students know they won't be able to drink in most bars (yes, there are known "underage friendly" bars here, unfortunately), so they go to a house party, and slam as many drinks as they can, as fast as they can; then head downtown to meet their older friends, catch a band, etc... There have been many cases of alcohol poisoning, and even a few deaths. Usually the bar staff is clueless as to how this kid is getting more and more intoxicated when they haven't served him/her a drop of alcohol. I've had a few bartender friends with close calls, because a kid will binge drink, go to a bar, then get injured/injure someone else/vandalize property/get popped for DWI, and the trail leads back to the bar. Several bars that I know of refuse to allow anyone under 21 in the door (many use stamps/wristbands to ID underage kids), just so they don't have to deal with the situation.


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## Bodhisattva (Aug 21, 2008)

MJS said:


> http://www.courant.com/news/local/hc-drinking0820.artaug20,0,1807550.story
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fewer laws is always better.

It's pretty silly to keep younger people from drinking.

Instead of buying their own beer,  you now have them talking to some creepy guy outside the liquor store.

"Sure, baby, I'll get you some rum."


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## Makalakumu (Aug 23, 2008)

So, over 100 college presidents sign a pledge to influence debate about the drinking age in America.  There are people on both sides.  Some say its too low, some say its too high.  What do you think?  Why?

Here is the Amethyst Initiative.  Check it out and let us know what you think.


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## Big Don (Aug 23, 2008)

As a former soldier, I really understand and agree, to a point, with the "old enough to fight for the country, old enough to drink legally." argument. However, there are an awful lot of problems caused by people binge drinking. Car accidents, fatalities, fights, assorted idiocy... I don't know, I know I drank a hell of a lot more between 18 and 21 than I did between 21 and 30, and I worked in a bar for three years... I don't see how three years (especially at that age) makes much different. We trust 18 yr olds with the VOTE, why not with alcohol? Would a compromise work? Say, dropping the drinking age to 18 and a major crackdown on alcohol related crimes(across all age groups, a 40 yr old drunk driver is just as likely to kill you as an 18 yr old)?


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## Makalakumu (Aug 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> As a former soldier, I really understand and agree, to a point, with the "old enough to fight for the country, old enough to drink legally." argument. However, there are an awful lot of problems caused by people binge drinking. Car accidents, fatalities, fights, assorted idiocy... I don't know, I know I drank a hell of a lot more between 18 and 21 than I did between 21 and 30, and I worked in a bar for three years... I don't see how three years (especially at that age) makes much different. We trust 18 yr olds with the VOTE, why not with alcohol? Would a compromise work? Say, dropping the drinking age to 18 and a major crackdown on alcohol related crimes(across all age groups, a 40 yr old drunk driver is just as likely to kill you as an 18 yr old)?


 
I totally see where you are coming from.  Other countries have their drinking age as low as 16 and they have FAR less problems with booze then we do.  A lot of European countries have lower drinking ages, but they crack down hard on booze related crimes.  It seems to work for them...


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## Big Don (Aug 23, 2008)

maunakumu said:


> I totally see where you are coming from.  Other countries have their drinking age as low as 16 and they have FAR less problems with booze then we do.  A lot of European countries have lower drinking ages, but they crack down hard on booze related crimes.  It seems to work for them...


As much as I agree with your statement, I cringe when I hear people laud Europe. There is, in this country, a wide stripe of people who hear the word "European" and shut off their minds as anything European just _must_ be superior.
Not at all to detract from or slander Europe, only to point out that to automatically assume something European is superior, sans any actual investigation, is about as dumb as it gets.


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## jks9199 (Aug 23, 2008)

Alcohol use is socialized rather differently in Europe compared to the US.  It's difficult to compare laws on an issue like this without taking that into account.

I believe we can take it as a given that a certain level of binge drinking among those who are under 21 has become a social expectation today, in part in response to the "forbidden fruit" effect.  I suspect that if we were to lower the drinking age without a corresponding push to re-examine and modify those expectations, all we'd do is produce a dramatic rise in binge drinking, and related criminal offenses.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 23, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Alcohol use is socialized rather differently in Europe compared to the US.  It's difficult to compare laws on an issue like this without taking that into account.
> 
> I believe we can take it as a given that a certain level of binge drinking among those who are under 21 has become a social expectation today, in part in response to the "forbidden fruit" effect.  I suspect that if we were to lower the drinking age without a corresponding push to re-examine and modify those expectations, all we'd do is produce a dramatic rise in binge drinking, and related criminal offenses.



That is how I see it as well!


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## Ahriman (Aug 23, 2008)

I love this "European thus good" thing - some of them who say this BS fail to realize that Romania, Hungary, Ukraine etc are all parts of Europe but they are nothing like "good" and absolutely not comparable to the UK, France, etc. Totally different countries...
...
On topic - I started drinking when I was 12, my best female friend started at 8... we wanted to and could though not legally. If one is a responsible human being, one will behave "normally" regardless of age, but if one is an idiot or worse, one will just as much behave as an idiot regardless of age. Uh, I was threatened and attacked by 10-14 old drunk armed kids on numerous occasions on the street. Lucky for us they are absolutely not skilled especially when drunk.
Most of those I know started drinking under legal age and were never caught and never committed crimes or offences other than drinking.
With all this in mind, I would say that this legal age idea has little if any meaning and in some cases backfires due to the "forbidden fruit" effect. If these things aren't present in your country then all the better.


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## MBuzzy (Aug 23, 2008)

Europeans grow up with the concept of drinking at a younger as.  As mentioned, it is viewed much differently, as more of a social thing than in the states.  We don't have the culture surrounding drinking.

So while I agree with dropping the drinking age to 18, I belive that we would have a massive problem with alcohol related crimes for the first few years.  Until that younger age becomes part of our culture and people are used to it, the kids who are close and just turning 18 would go crazy when they did.  Just like most 21 year olds.  I don't think that we will ever change the college culture surrounding drinking in the US.

And while I am also one of the people who drank more between 18 and 21 than I did between 21 and 30......recently, I've really started to notive a HUGE difference between 18 and 21 year olds.  I think that people really do a lot of growing up in that time.  Not everyone of course, but personally, I became an entirely different person (through maturity) during those 4 years.

Which often makes me question my position that the drinking age should be lower.


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## tahuti (Aug 23, 2008)

This table nicely ilustrates where USA is in relation to world
http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/LegalDrinkingAge.html

Check Wikipedia for more detailed info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_drinking_age

Even if it is listed as none for purchasing 18 for drinking that is not necessary true for all East Europe, some were influenced by Germany.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_alcohol_laws
Germany has three drinking ages.


At 14 - Children are allowed to consume and possess undistilled (fermented) alcoholic beverages, such as beer and wine, as long as they are in the company of their parents.
At 16 - Undistilled drinks are allowed without a parent.
At 18 - The child is now an adult and is allowed access to distilled liquor.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 23, 2008)

Big Don said:


> As much as I agree with your statement, I cringe when I hear people laud Europe. There is, in this country, a wide stripe of people who hear the word "European" and shut off their minds as anything European just _must_ be superior.
> 
> Not at all to detract from or slander Europe, only to point out that to automatically assume something European is superior, sans any actual investigation, is about as dumb as it gets.



I totally agree and I think this comes from the pollyanna attitude many social liberals have toward Europe...seeing it as some kind of promised land.  The reality is that every place has things they do well and others not so well.  

With that said, I think that it is wise to look at examples of legislation that does work well.  Take for instance the German legislation for drinking posted above.

This legislation allows parents to model proper drinking behavior for their children.  It allows the teenagers a degree of freedom to practice the behavior they were taught.  And then someone is conferred with the full rights of an adult.  Thus, by the time you are 18, you have had four years of drinking experience, two years monitored, two years less monitored, before you are completely legal.

Europe or not, this makes sense to me.  Sure, there are problems.  I know for a fact, I had two foreign exchange students from Germany in my physics class last year they all knew people who were irresponsible.  But, on the whole, it seemed to work.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 23, 2008)

I wonder how much attitudes developed during prohibition influence things like our drinking age and the drinking culture in the US.  Underage drinking is secret and underground, but almost completely accepted.  It sounds like drinking during prohibition.


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## donald (Aug 23, 2008)

It should be 35yrs of age, and only with permission by a parent, or legal guardian.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 23, 2008)

I started drinking when I was about 14 and did my best to hide it from m'dad who was the law around the house then... what am I saying... still is. 
I couldn't wait til I was 18 which was back in '79. When I entered college I majored in inebriation. If I was invited to a dorm party an extra case of beer was purchased (often times by me) to make sure there was enough to go around because I was guaranteed a case singlehandedly before the night was over. 
I also remember my dad telling me (often) that I wouldn't be a "man" til I was 21. Now I'm 47 and I can now see that he was right.  Actually I had seen the rightness of his ideal when I was in my mid-thirties.
Drinking is for mature adults. At 18, I don't care how grown up and how hard of a life you lead and how mature you may act... you're still not grown/mature enough to drink. If you were you wouldn't spend time getting totally drunk shitfaced and trying to drive or do some other things now would ya? You'd be *mature* enough to understand the consequences of such actions. You wanna have fun, sure ... before I got too heavily into my drinking I found that one or two beers or drinks to catch that "pleasant buzz" was adequate. I see responsible drinkers do the same... drink one or two and stop and enjoy the rest of the day/evening. Some are even responsible enough to hand over their car keys even if they just had ONE beer/drink. 

I too seen assorted idiotcy and still do on the net via videos posted of the 18-20 sets drinking. Boys do all kinds of moronic stuff and girls just lose all respect for themselves flashing their breasts to cameras and getting so drunk to the point of passing out that boys actually completely take advantage of them sexually. Imagine how they feel waking up the next afternoon? Please don't insult the intelligence by saying "well it was probably a date-rape drug"... yes, they do occur but many times it's un-necessary because of the heavy volume of alcohol consumed. 
I see photos (on the web) of people consuming so much alcohol at one sitting, that it's a miracle that they haven't died from alcohol poisoning... THAT almost happened to a close friend of mine if the cops that came over to bust the party up hadn't tried to wake him and found him semi-comatose. 
You can see the lack of respect from photos of people totally passed out that they don't feel someone gleefully taking a black magic marker and painting half their faces black and writing degrading things on their bodies or piling up garbage on them and in some cases doing it in such a way that when they move it all comes crashing down on them... fine friends... fine mature responsible drinking aged friends. 

The legal drinking age should be at 21, the legal voting age should be at 21 the legal OF AGE should be at 21. 

Nuff said.


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## shesulsa (Aug 24, 2008)

Note:

Threads on lowering the drinking age merged.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
MT Assist. Admin.


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