# Do We Need These Things?



## MJS (Aug 23, 2010)

Over on another forum, the question was asked:

Do we need gis, belts and titles, to do Kajukenbo?  

I'm putting this here, so everyone (KenMpo and Kaju) can comment. 

The replies over there ranged from it depends on what you're teaching to no, we dont need that stuff.


IMO, I agree with the ones who said no.  I dont walk around with a gi on 24/7, so for me, I'd rather train in something that I wear often.   As for the belts...nothing but a piece of cloth tied around your waist.  Personally, I'd rather wear a plain BB, no stripes, nothing.  After all, its your skill that makes the difference, not the fancy stripes.  Dont 'ohhh and ahhhh' me with that stuff, make me 'ohh and ahh' over what you can teach me.  As for titles....my first name will do just fine.  

Thoughts?


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm not Kempo, but I'd like to comment, if I could...

I like wearing a gi in my dojo.  No, I don't walk around in one.  But it's a very utilitarian set of clothes for the kind of stuff we do.  I'd hate to wear my usual street attire - chinos and a polo shirt.  Doubt if that would last long; I'd be buying new clothes every week!

Not to say that there isn't something to be gained by doing some training in street attire; I have for sure noticed how my kicks (especially) differ when I am encumbered by less-flexible jeans and wearing relatively heavy shoes.  Everything feels a tad different, my timing and balance are different too.  I can see the value in training in street clothes from time to time.

As to belts; when I started Isshin-Ryu two years ago, I didn't think I'd much care if I stayed a white belt, so long as I kept learning and progressing.  Now I find myself pleased to be in line for promotion to brown belt; it means something serious in my dojo, and if my sensei finds me worthy of it, that means something very important to me.  Don't really care for any other reason.  I don't wear my belt outside the dojo, nobody would ever know what belt I hold except for my friends on MT.


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## CoryKS (Aug 23, 2010)

Don't know about the titles or the belt, but we do a lot of grabbing and pulling and without that heavy gi fabric it seems like we'd be destroying a LOT of t-shirts.


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not Kempo, but I'd like to comment, if I could...


 
By all means, comment as you'd like.  



> I like wearing a gi in my dojo. No, I don't walk around in one. But it's a very utilitarian set of clothes for the kind of stuff we do. I'd hate to wear my usual street attire - chinos and a polo shirt. Doubt if that would last long; I'd be buying new clothes every week!
> 
> Not to say that there isn't something to be gained by doing some training in street attire; I have for sure noticed how my kicks (especially) differ when I am encumbered by less-flexible jeans and wearing relatively heavy shoes. Everything feels a tad different, my timing and balance are different too. I can see the value in training in street clothes from time to time.


 
Hmm...I probably should've clarified.  Lets change the work out clothing from gis to simply a t-shirt, sweats, sweatshirt, etc.  Sorry, should've been more clear.  



> As to belts; when I started Isshin-Ryu two years ago, I didn't think I'd much care if I stayed a white belt, so long as I kept learning and progressing. Now I find myself pleased to be in line for promotion to brown belt; it means something serious in my dojo, and if my sensei finds me worthy of it, that means something very important to me. Don't really care for any other reason. I don't wear my belt outside the dojo, nobody would ever know what belt I hold except for my friends on MT.


 
Dont get me wrong, I'm proud and happy to get rank as well, but I view it as, when it happens, it happens.  Some people tend to be more fixated with it than others.  Not talking about you, just sayin'.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 23, 2010)

While I am not Kempo or Kanjukenbo I will definitely give my impression.

No you really do not need these things at all.  Through the years I have trained in street clothes from jeans and a sweatshirt to shorts and t-shirts, to military BDU's, winter coats and of course your standard heavyweight martial arts uniform.  Through the years I have destroyed a lot of t-shirts.  Particularly when grappling and having someone pull on them.  Rash guards last better but... they still are not super strong.   My favorite thing to train in is a heavyweight martial arts uniform that is black so that it does not show stains and blood.  Through the years a tough black uniform has always served me well.  Like you MJS I am all about plain, no patches, no stripes, nothing gaudy.  Just simple colors.


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## Blindside (Aug 23, 2010)

Well, I certainly liked the belt system when i was a kenpo underbelt, it really helped me target my goals about what I had to learn, and what I had to do to accomplish it. Heck, I have an old excel file that I targeted my progression from yellow to black by month of the year. It was certainly an aid for me. 

As for uniforms, belts, formalities, and titles, well they all seemed part and parcel to the art, and served to make a "study" mentality where you mentally set aside time to focus on the art. 

Nowadays I mostly teach an art with no uniforms, no ranks, and no use of titles in the classroom, and we get along just fine.


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## John Bishop (Aug 23, 2010)

A gi is just a training uniform.  It serves several purposes.  In a traditional system, it's a uniform that shows your rank and system.  It's a way to signify your being part of a certain system, organization, and school.  Belonging to something bigger then yourself.  A sense of pride for some.
And it's workout gear that's designed to take the rigors of your workout.  In Kajukenbo there's a lot of contact, grabbing, throwing, and grappling.  One could easily go thru 2-3 shirts per workout, and split a pair of pants.  Sure clothes get torn and shredded in a real fight.  But why ruin several pieces of clothing a week, when you can wear a heavyweight gi for years?
When I work out at the gym, I don't wear street clothes.  When I go on long mountain bike rides, I don't wear street clothes. 
A gi's just a training uniform.  People need to get over this thing about ranks and formalities.  If you don't care for it, train in a system or gym that doesn't use gi's, ranks, or such.  
I hear people talking all the time about how they don't believe in ranks, and how much of a ego trip wearing rank is.  Funny thing is these are usually the people who are the most vocal to anyone who will listen about their own martial prowess.
So who's the humble man?  The one who wears a 7th, 8th, 9th degree belt in his school, but most of the people he meets have no idea he does martial arts?  Or, the guy who trains in the t-shirt and board shorts, and makes sure everyone he comes in contact with knows he's a fighter/martial artist?


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## Omar B (Aug 23, 2010)

A gi also helps mindset.  I find that in and out of my gi there's a stark difference in my mindset and personality.  It's a very serious no BS attitude that's ready to do nothing but train.


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## Touch Of Death (Aug 23, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not Kempo, but I'd like to comment, if I could...
> 
> I like wearing a gi in my dojo. No, I don't walk around in one. But it's a very utilitarian set of clothes for the kind of stuff we do. I'd hate to wear my usual street attire - chinos and a polo shirt. Doubt if that would last long; I'd be buying new clothes every week!
> 
> ...


Aren't Chino's a Sinanju rank, just below that of a flowerey Kimono?
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2010)

I don't have a problem with wearing some kind of uniform, but I find the gi to be uncomfortable.  Sure, it's useful for standing up to rough workouts, but I don't feel like I move comfortably in them.  Don't really like the belts either, they kind of feel like they are in the way.

I prefer a simple T-shirt and workout pants. I kinda like the black cotton kung fu pants, and shoes.  Loose, easy to move, comfortable, no binding belt.

Rank has uses, tho the longer I'm in it, the less I care about it and don't really care to wear it.

If I had to vote one way or the other, I'd vote get rid of them.


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## Flying Crane (Aug 23, 2010)

John Bishop said:


> I hear people talking all the time about how they don't believe in ranks, and how much of a ego trip wearing rank is. Funny thing is these are usually the people who are the most vocal to anyone who will listen about their own martial prowess.
> So who's the humble man? The one who wears a 7th, 8th, 9th degree belt in his school, but most of the people he meets have no idea he does martial arts? Or, the guy who trains in the t-shirt and board shorts, and makes sure everyone he comes in contact with knows he's a fighter/martial artist?


 
There are also those who don't bother to wear the rank, and who keep a low profile and likewise don't advertise the fact.


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## Omar B (Aug 23, 2010)

Flying Crane said:


> I don't have a problem with wearing some kind of uniform, but I find the gi to be uncomfortable.  Sure, it's useful for standing up to rough workouts, but I don't feel like I move comfortably in them.  Don't really like the belts either, they kind of feel like they are in the way.
> I prefer a simple T-shirt and workout pants. I kinda like the black cotton kung fu pants, and shoes.  Loose, easy to move, comfortable, no binding belt.
> Rank has uses, tho the longer I'm in it, the less I care about it and don't really care to wear it.
> If I had to vote one way or the other, I'd vote get rid of them.



You think the gi is uncomfortable?  I'm the complete opposite, I love my gi, even my morning runs/workout at the park I wear a pair of black gi pants.


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## Carol (Aug 23, 2010)

Personally I don't find gis to be comfortable either.  

Most men would be probably not be comfortable given clothes originally cut for a woman that have been re-labeled as "unisex".    Likewise, I'm not comfortable in clothing originally cut for a man.  I'm simply not built like one. 

When I was able to attend a school on a regular basis, being in uniform and seeing everyone in uniform did help my mindset...esp. as I was new to the arts at the time.  

Mentally, I think it had a positive impact on my focus.  It definitely lead me to view my dojo as a bit of a sanctuary, where I could escape the rest of the world and focus on my training.  At the time, I needed that perhaps more than I care to admit.  

If I had a choice, my preference would be a school t-shirt and black workout pants of my own choosing.


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## Mark Jordan (Aug 23, 2010)

The one who wears a 7th, 8th, 9th degree belt in his school, but most of the people he meets have no idea he does martial arts. - in my opinion, this is a humble guy as opposed to the other one mentioned.


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2010)

John Bishop said:


> A gi is just a training uniform. It serves several purposes. In a traditional system, it's a uniform that shows your rank and system. It's a way to signify your being part of a certain system, organization, and school. Belonging to something bigger then yourself. A sense of pride for some.
> And it's workout gear that's designed to take the rigors of your workout. In Kajukenbo there's a lot of contact, grabbing, throwing, and grappling. One could easily go thru 2-3 shirts per workout, and split a pair of pants. Sure clothes get torn and shredded in a real fight. But why ruin several pieces of clothing a week, when you can wear a heavyweight gi for years?
> When I work out at the gym, I don't wear street clothes. When I go on long mountain bike rides, I don't wear street clothes.
> A gi's just a training uniform. People need to get over this thing about ranks and formalities. If you don't care for it, train in a system or gym that doesn't use gi's, ranks, or such.
> ...


 
Just to clarify:  When I teach class, I wear a gi, and my belt.  But, I should still be able to conduct the same class, in a pair of sweats and a T, minus the belt, and still demonstrate skill, knowledge, etc.  I take my Kenpo private lessons in gi pants and a t shirt.  The same with my Arnis lessons.  

As far as being humble goes, I think that both of the scenarios you listed could apply.  In other words...even the guy with the board shorts and t-shirt, should be able to be humble.  

I'm sure we've both seen people at seminars and camps, standing around, making it known that they're X rank.  Its those people, IMO, that aren't the humble ones.  Its those people who, just by their actions, have to let people know they're big and bad.  Why?


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## MJS (Aug 23, 2010)

Carol said:


> Personally I don't find gis to be comfortable either.
> 
> Most men would be probably not be comfortable given clothes originally cut for a woman that have been re-labeled as "unisex". Likewise, I'm not comfortable in clothing originally cut for a man. I'm simply not built like one.
> 
> ...


 
Nice pic.   This is how one of my Arnis teachers ran his classes....school T, and pants such as we see above.


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## Mark Jordan (Aug 23, 2010)

The one who wears a 7th, 8th, 9th degree belt in his school, but most of the people he meets have no idea he does martial arts. - in my opinion, this is a humble guy as opposed to the other one mentioned.


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## Big Don (Aug 24, 2010)

Do we need them as in are they absolutely necessary to teach, learn or practice, of course not. My gi is comfortable, for me. Some people may not like them, but, I never found spandex or silk to be comfortable, everything is personal preference... When you get down to it, we could practice buck naked or in three piece suits.
that said, I now continue to the smart *** portion of my post, because I just have to...


> All I need are some tasty waves, a cool buds, and I'm fine.


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## LawDog (Aug 24, 2010)

A Gi, it is a uniform, in that everyone is looks "uniform" within a given structure/setting. It takes away from the "look at me" ego thing
Belt ranking is a standerdized level of developement. In a large classroom setting it is easier for an instructor to see what level each student is at. Today in many modern schools it has been lowered down to mere ego.
Patches, sometimes students / instructors can get carried away.

Training is what you do and not what you wear.
:ultracool


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## Big Don (Aug 24, 2010)

lawdog said:


> training is what you do and not what you wear.
> :ultracool


qft


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## K831 (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm not a fan of Gi's and belts, at least not in terms of clothing. 

A belt ranking system can facilitate goals and timelines, however, I don't see a reason to wear the belt to class. 

I hate Gi's... Heavy, hot, uncomfortable, they come loose, I never wear one anywhere else, and I see no practice use. My FMA class, we buy a cheap T-shirt with the school logo on it (this covers uniformity, belonging, representation and school pride etc) and wear running pants or shorts, and shoes. 

My old Kenpo school (same association, different instructor) it was the same. School T shirt, jogging bottoms and shoes. 

My current Kenpo school? Gi, belt, no shoes, bow in, bow out etc.... I hate it, but it is what it is, and it's the style I love. 

I don't like to do things "because thats how we have always done it" or "that's the tradition" etc. Also, I hate not wearing shoes when I train. 

So, no, we do not need them.


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## jks9199 (Aug 24, 2010)

Are the trappings necessary to training?  No.

A Catholic priest can say Mass on folding card table in your living room.  All that is necessary is the priest, the bread, the wine, and the prayers.  But there's a certain atmosphere that comes from the church building, the choir, the music, the candles, etc.  (Fresh on my mind because my parish just built a new church -- and it somehow doesn't feel like a church yet...  Everything's there, but it's got "new church smell.")

In the same way, you can train in jeans, in sweats, in whatever.  You can do it in a field or in a formal training hall.  But those trappings can help remind everyone what's going on.  I like to change into my training clothes; it's a physical and mental reminder that I am training -- not doing anything else.  Just like the altar, crucifix, and other elements of the church building are reminders that we're gathered for a purpose.

Belts?  They only matter because they do to some people.  They help have a rough idea what a person should know -- but the reality is that any belt color is only meaningful within the club or association that issued it.  Is a green belt a beginner or intermediate?  What about a green belt with a blue stripe and 3 black lines?  What's that one mean?  (Yes, I really saw exactly that combination on Saturday.  The young man was a green belt soon to test for brown.)


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## Yondanchris (Aug 24, 2010)

I love the comments here, 

 Thank you Mr. Bishop for your comments!! 

As has been said before, individuals fit into 1 of 2 camps: 

GI (ranks, patches, ect...) 

or 

NO GI (t-shirt, pants, shoes, ect...) 

I will echo the notion that ocassional training in varied environments (including clothing) is positive and informative for the Martial Artist. 

It all comes down to the Instructor, the Student, and the pride of either one...

The more I experience Pride/Ego the more I understand Humanity and the 
common condition....

My ignorant .02 cents, 

Chris


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## Danjo (Aug 25, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Are the trappings necessary to training? No.
> 
> A Catholic priest can say Mass on folding card table in your living room. All that is necessary is the priest, the bread, the wine, and the prayers. But there's a certain atmosphere that comes from the church building, the choir, the music, the candles, etc. (Fresh on my mind because my parish just built a new church -- and it somehow doesn't feel like a church yet... Everything's there, but it's got "new church smell.")
> 
> ...


 
I don't think those priest collars are very good for fighting in from the looks of them.

I've thought often about starting a women's self defense class where everyone dressed like the ancient Olympians, but I still haven't worked out the details yet. When I say "no gi grappling" I MEAN it!


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## Carol (Aug 25, 2010)

Danjo said:


> I don't think those priest collars are very good for fighting in from the looks of them.
> 
> I've thought often about starting a women's self defense class where everyone dressed like the ancient Olympians, but I still haven't worked out the details yet. When I say "no gi grappling" I MEAN it!



You first, Danjo.  C'mon, show us how its done. :highfive:


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## Danjo (Aug 25, 2010)

Carol said:


> You first, Danjo. C'mon, show us how its done. :highfive:


 
No problem. The thing is I decided to go with just teaching private lessons. I give substantial discounts however, soooooooooo................


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## Carol (Aug 25, 2010)

Danjo said:


> No problem. The thing is I decided to go with just teaching private lessons. I give substantial discounts however, soooooooooo................



Soooooo......set up a demo eh?  Oh, and find a nice buff kaju guy to assist you.  Make it worth my while.  *nods*


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## Danjo (Aug 26, 2010)

Carol said:


> Soooooo......set up a demo eh? Oh, and find a nice buff kaju guy to assist you. Make it worth my while. *nods*


 
Not sure how another guy would work with my women's self defense class. But either way, you know how I feel about video training. It has to be _hands on_. I'm too old school for anything else. So, if you're ever in the area...:hmm:


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## Carol (Aug 26, 2010)

Danjo said:


> Not sure how another guy would work with my women's self defense class. But either way, you know how I feel about video training. It has to be _hands on_. I'm too old school for anything else. So, if you're ever in the area...:hmm:



I'll watch you guys put on a show first.  See if its my thing.


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## l_uk3y (Aug 26, 2010)

Once again I'm not from Kempo but I'm also of the opinion that it needs to be functional. In WC we have loose flexible pants with a logo'd T-shirt as uniform. It does the job perfectly for the application as well as is something you can wear down the street as normal attire (excluding the logo).

In Hapkido however. A T-shirt just won't cope with the treatment. I've gone through a few uniforms and now use a heavy canvas to stop the stitches popping every time I train. 

As far as belts go. They give your training partner an extra item to grab to do nasty things to you. Otherwise they just mean something to new students and people whom rank themselves by their color.

Luke


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 26, 2010)

I always hear martial artists asking questions about uniform, but I don't hear the same argument from people in other endeavours. All my years playing rugby, I never heard "Do you think we should train/play in street clothes". If that had been said, the lad who said it would get laughed at.

When it comes to belts, they are an indicator of where you are in the scheme of things. The belt is also an accomplishment. It also helps visiting instructors differentiate from beginner, intermediate and advanced students. Wear it with pride says I, but don't go down the pub in it and whatever you do don't sleep in it.


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## K831 (Aug 26, 2010)

yorkshirelad said:


> I always hear martial artists asking questions about uniform, but I don't hear the same argument from people in other endeavours. All my years playing rugby, I never heard "Do you think we should train/play in street clothes". If that had been said, the lad who said it would get laughed at.



This is likely because most gear associated with other sports serve a very functional purpose, most often safety, where as most martial arts uniforms serve a historical or traditional purpose only. But even in Rugby, gear changes. Very seldom do you see the high cut boots of days past.. no, that was changed in favor for what is most practical, so obviously someone questioned it. Same can be said for 6 and 8 stud patterns for given positions. But we should still wear antiquated Japanese uniforms when we train? 

I understand what some members have posted regarding certain types of Gi's lasting longer with the given throws and chokes than a t shirt (Judo, BJJ and Hopkido). However, in Kenpo and Kali, the throws we do use a limb, the head or neck. There is no practical reason to wear a GI at all. 

I would expect my motocross buddies to laugh at me if I protested the wearing of a helmet and boots. I wish more Kenpoists would laugh at the insistence on wearing an unnecessary uniform in the name of tradition, rather than  more practical set of clothing.  

This becomes even more of an issue when learning to kick, barefoot vs shoes.... 



yorkshirelad said:


> When it comes to belts, they are an indicator of where you are in the scheme of things. The belt is also an accomplishment. It also helps visiting instructors differentiate from beginner, intermediate and advanced students. Wear it with pride says I, but don't go down the pub in it and whatever you do don't sleep in it.



Couple of thoughts - 

1.) A belt should indicate where someone is in the scheme of things, but they often indicate nothing more than shear time at a dojo or money spent. What matters is skill, technique, timing etc, and that becomes apparent regardless of what the belt says

2.) Yes it is an accomplishment. See above, isn't what we are really trying to accomplish is the acquisition of skill that can be applied in real life? That is why I train... my success in that endeavor is my accomplishment and I see it in my performance, not on my waist. I don't begrudge anyone who wants to wear an MA belt... as to the posters question; we don't "need it". 

3.) Yes, if one is inclined to have visiting instructors from other styles and one is inclined to care what they think and how readily they can discern who wears what color then belts need to be worn. Not an issue where I typically train.


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## Danjo (Aug 26, 2010)

K831 said:


> This is likely because most gear associated with other sports serve a very functional purpose, most often safety, where as most martial arts uniforms serve a historical or traditional purpose only. But even in Rugby, gear changes. Very seldom do you see the high cut boots of days past.. no, that was changed in favor for what is most practical, so obviously someone questioned it. Same can be said for 6 and 8 stud patterns for given positions. But we should still wear antiquated Japanese uniforms when we train?
> 
> I understand what some members have posted regarding certain types of Gi's lasting longer with the given throws and chokes than a t shirt (Judo, BJJ and Hopkido). However, in Kenpo and Kali, the throws we do use a limb, the head or neck. There is no practical reason to wear a GI at all.
> 
> ...


 
Well, our art needs to use the gis because of the wear and tear. In the real world, people often wear heavy coats, or even windbreakers and there are plenty of techniques that will translate nicely from the gi to those garments. However, we also have a wide range of techniques that don't require any particular type of clothing, but wearing a gi won't prevent one from being good at them.

If, you are in an art that only deals with techniques that have no bearing on how restrictive the clothing is and there is no need to grab the clothing, then it really doesn't matter what you wear. I know many Chinese Boxing arts are done in street clothes and shoes. These arts typically do not involve throwing and choking.


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## yorkshirelad (Aug 26, 2010)

K831 said:


> This is likely because most gear associated with other sports serve a very functional purpose, most often safety, where as most martial arts uniforms serve a historical or traditional purpose only. But even in Rugby, gear changes. Very seldom do you see the high cut boots of days past.. no, that was changed in favor for what is most practical, so obviously someone questioned it. Same can be said for 6 and 8 stud patterns for given positions. But we should still wear antiquated Japanese uniforms when we train?
> 
> I understand what some members have posted regarding certain types of Gi's lasting longer with the given throws and chokes than a t shirt (Judo, BJJ and Hopkido). However, in Kenpo and Kali, the throws we do use a limb, the head or neck. There is no practical reason to wear a GI at all.
> 
> ...


You seem to have taken a contentious tone. Yes sportswear has changed, but so have martial arts gis. In most traditional atrs, gis have remained pretty much the same as they were at the inception of these arts. If we take a look at BJJ, their gis have changed considerably since the golden days of Helio and Carlos.

Now, about belts, if you don't want to wear one don't. It's not about caring what others think, it's about facilitating students and teachers in teaching and learning. True, some instructors sell belts, but these guys are usually embarassed when their students come up against students of their peers. There's no need to get upset mate. I don't care if you wear high heels and a tutu. It's horses for courses.


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## K831 (Aug 26, 2010)

Danjo said:


> In the real world, people often wear heavy coats, or even windbreakers and there are plenty of techniques that will translate nicely from the gi to those garments.



Interesting. I hear this a lot, but very few want to apply the same line of thinking to shoes, and how that effects techniques, especially kicking. Do you wear shoes when you train? What percentage of the time do you think you will have a real altercation barefoot, vs wearing shoes? I am genuinely curious. 



Danjo said:


> If, you are in an art that only deals with techniques that have no bearing on how restrictive the clothing is and there is no need to grab the clothing, then it really doesn't matter what you wear. I know many Chinese Boxing arts are done in street clothes and shoes. These arts typically do not involve throwing and choking.



I agree, and the OP did ask specifically about Ken(m)po and Kaju. Most Kenpo/Kempo I have been exposed to is light on throws that are clothing dependent. (light on throws in general really). The Kaju my brother trains in is Emperado style, which is far more focused on the Kenpo/striking aspect, so no real need of gi there. Most of the throws he shows me from his style are not clothing dependent.

This of course brings up other training questions... is there perhaps an issue with techniques and styles that are highly clothing dependent? In my experience both learning and teaching, students taught to throw using limbs etc can easily modify by grabbing a heavy coat if it is there, whereas students taught to throw using a gi lapel tend to reach for it when it isn't there (not to mention discussing the loss of one weapon in doing so) . We actually played with this in a Krav seminar, as the instructor explained why their grappling had been modified as it had.. same as my Kenpo. Just a thought.



yorkshirelad said:


> You seem to have taken a contentious tone.



Contentious? If you mean I disagreed with your comparison between martial arts gis and all other sports uniforms than yes, I disagree, or rather contend with that line of thinking. If you mean to infer that I am angry, upset, and emotional or heated, then no sir  not at all. 



yorkshirelad said:


> Yes sportswear has changed, but so have martial arts gis. In most traditional atrs, gis have remained pretty much the same as they were at the inception of these arts. If we take a look at BJJ, their gis have changed considerably since the golden days of Helio and Carlos.



Which is why I specifically mentioned BJJ in my post above. 



yorkshirelad said:


> Now, about belts, if you don't want to wear one don't. It's not about caring what others think, it's about facilitating students and teachers in teaching and learning. True, some instructors sell belts, but these guys are usually embarassed when their students come up against students of their peers. There's no need to get upset mate. I don't care if you wear high heels and a tutu. It's horses for courses.



- I don't, whenever I can get out of it. 
- Again, I'm not upset in any way. Because someone finds fault with anothers logic, reasoning, analogy, etc does not imply they are upset.  
- Sure I could wear a tutu, and you can wear a gi, but that has nothing to do with the question posed, which was "do we really need to". For many arts, specifically the bulk of those mentioned by the OP, the answer is still "no". Weather we "can" or "want to" is subjective and contextual... and beside the point.


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## Danjo (Aug 29, 2010)

K831 said:


> Interesting. I hear this a lot, but very few want to apply the same line of thinking to shoes, and how that effects techniques, especially kicking. Do you wear shoes when you train? What percentage of the time do you think you will have a real altercation barefoot, vs wearing shoes? I am genuinely curious.


 
We do train in shoes as well as bare feet. In fact it's built into our training schedule with regular "Shoe Nights" so that we can get used to wearing them while training. We live in Southern California, which means that 90% of the time I'm not at work I am wearing flip-flop sandals. So if a fight were to occur, those would be kicked of imediately. However, during the colder winter days (when it gets down into the 50's etc.) I will wear shoes, as well as when I'm at work, so it pays to be comfortable with both.





K831 said:


> I agree, and the OP did ask specifically about Ken(m)po and Kaju. Most Kenpo/Kempo I have been exposed to is light on throws that are clothing dependent. (light on throws in general really). The Kaju my brother trains in is Emperado style, which is far more focused on the Kenpo/striking aspect, so no real need of gi there. Most of the throws he shows me from his style are not clothing dependent.


 
Well, the "Emperado Style" is really all of Kajukenbo. However, many simply mean the Original/Kenpo KArate Method when referring to the Emperado Method. If you look at my signature, you'll see that is what we train in. Trust me when I tell you that the Original/Kenpo Karate Method has TONS of grabs and take downs etc. Now, not every instructor will emphasize that part of it due to their personal preference, but if they're teaching the whole curriculum, then it's there (and it's not hidden in some technique either, but rather overt) the "Ju" in Kajukenbo stands for Juijitsu as well as Judo.



K831 said:


> This of course brings up other training questions... is there perhaps an issue with techniques and styles that are highly clothing dependent? In my experience both learning and teaching, students taught to throw using limbs etc can easily modify by grabbing a heavy coat if it is there, whereas students taught to throw using a gi lapel tend to reach for it when it isn't there (not to mention discussing the loss of one weapon in doing so) . We actually played with this in a Krav seminar, as the instructor explained why their grappling had been modified as it had.. same as my Kenpo. Just a thought.


 
We have throws and takedowns that are not dependent upon the use of clothing, but we have those that are too. I dont see any point in tossing those out and limiting your options.


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## Carol (Aug 29, 2010)

Danjo said:


> We have throws and takedowns that are not dependent upon the use of clothing, but we have those that are too. I dont see any point in tossing those out and limiting your options.



Not wearing a gi does not mean tossing them out and limiting one's options.  Many folks don't wear helmet, cage, pads, gloves, etc. in class from start to finish.  That doesn't mean training that requires sparring gear is tossed out the window.


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## just2kicku (Aug 29, 2010)

I don't believe we need Gi's, although I do think it's a good idea. As far as belts, although I personally could care less about them, again, I think it's a good idea.

Our military, private schools and even work wear uniforms. I think it puts everyone on an even playing field to all be wearing the same thing. The belts just shows who is senior and junior to the other. There are no distractions as to who's wearing the gucci shirt or the coach pants or whatever.

And Dan, are you gonna be going to Roberts tourney? I sure coulda done without the visual, and if your going to be doing your demo there, well, I'll be sick that day!:erg:


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## girlbug2 (Aug 29, 2010)

My art if you want to call it that, is a reality based self defense system, and as such we do not wear gis. A school t shirt is required for all official class training, with whatever comfortable workout pants the student wants. That pretty much takes care of the "uniform" aspect. We do have belts awarded with each rank progression, but nobody actually wears them to class--at least, not the adult classes. The kids are required to wear their belts. However I do believe if an adult did try wearing one, they would get snickered at.

My take on gis and such, is that they look really good when you are performing katas (we don't have katas in Krav) and that they may be necessary clothing for certain arts like jiujitsu which rely on them explicitly. Otherwise, though, I say why bother. But that's just me and my temperment. Some people probably get a real kick out of wearing gis, seeing themselves and their fellow students reflected in the mirror all wearing the uniform as they practice, and how it sharpens up the atmosphere of tradition and connectedness to another culture and all. If that helps you then it's all good.


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## Danjo (Aug 29, 2010)

Carol said:


> Not wearing a gi does not mean tossing them out and limiting one's options. Many folks don't wear helmet, cage, pads, gloves, etc. in class from start to finish. That doesn't mean training that requires sparring gear is tossed out the window.


 
Clearly if you're willing to put on a gi and take it off again during class, that would solve the problem.


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## Danjo (Aug 29, 2010)

girlbug2 said:


> My art if you want to call it that, is a reality based self defense system, and as such we do not wear gis. A school t shirt is required for all official class training, with whatever comfortable workout pants the student wants. That pretty much takes care of the "uniform" aspect. We do have belts awarded with each rank progression, but nobody actually wears them to class--at least, not the adult classes. The kids are required to wear their belts. However I do believe if an adult did try wearing one, they would get snickered at.
> 
> My take on gis and such, is that they look really good when you are performing katas (we don't have katas in Krav) and that they may be necessary clothing for certain arts like jiujitsu which rely on them explicitly. Otherwise, though, I say why bother. But that's just me and my temperment. Some people probably get a real kick out of wearing gis, seeing themselves and their fellow students reflected in the mirror all wearing the uniform as they practice, and how it sharpens up the atmosphere of tradition and connectedness to another culture and all. If that helps you then it's all good.


 
Well, if you're training to only fight people wearing t-shirts and have therefore no need to deal with heavier clothing on someone, then I guess you're set. Because we all know in "reality" people only walk around wearing t-shirts.


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## Danjo (Aug 29, 2010)

just2kicku said:


> I don't believe we need Gi's, although I do think it's a good idea. As far as belts, although I personally could care less about them, again, I think it's a good idea.
> 
> Our military, private schools and even work wear uniforms. I think it puts everyone on an even playing field to all be wearing the same thing. The belts just shows who is senior and junior to the other. There are no distractions as to who's wearing the gucci shirt or the coach pants or whatever.
> 
> And Dan, are you gonna be going to Roberts tourney? I sure coulda done without the visual, and if your going to be doing your demo there, well, I'll be sick that day!:erg:


 
Yeah, I'll be there, but no demo from me so don't worry. I'll save that for the seminars.


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