# Knife Practicioners take note!



## Emptyglass (Apr 21, 2003)

Bad publicity for the FMA and someone killed needlessly and shamefully by an individual who should never have been taught.

http://www.nydailynews.com/04-19-2003/news/story/76758p-70882c.html

Very sad.

Respectfully,

Richard Curren


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## Zepp (Apr 21, 2003)

An example of why you need to be careful of who you teach.

I feel bad for all of you guys in NY.  The martial arts laws in that town are only going to get more restrictive after this.


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## Seigi (Apr 21, 2003)

Bad News fro ALL FMA, Indeed.

Peace


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## Cthulhu (Apr 21, 2003)

Oh my gosh, this is horrible.  I hope this doesn't cause a ****storm of trouble for FMA practitioners in NY and other U.S. states.  Another thing to watch out for is the media really playing up this guy's FMA training.  Maybe FMA schools in the area can start looking into preemptive damage control now, before the general media blows things way out of proportion.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador (Apr 21, 2003)

> Cops arrested an out-of-work accountant trained in lethal knife-fighting techniques yesterday in the murder of an East Village bouncer who died enforcing the city's smoking ban.



Bad news for martial artists when they use a description like that.



> he was recovering from self-inflicted slashing wounds to his throat and wrists.



Hmmm, he seems to have failed when using the knife on himself.

The bouncer died 11 hours after being stabbed, it said--I wonder what the wound was that it took so long? Or perhaps he had suffered brain death from loss of blood earlier on.



> trained in the Filipino martial art of Eskrima, which uses precision knife blows and deadly weapons to fight enemies.
> 
> Detectives plan to interview a Manhattan martial arts expert who trained Umali how to kill with a single knife wound, sources said.
> 
> "Someone trained this guy [Umali] to hit someone in a fatal spot to kill them, and it worked. We want to find him," one police source said.



Yeah, this is trouble for martial artists--but also a sad story for one individual, the bouncer, and his family and friends.


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## moromoro (Apr 22, 2003)

IAM SICK OF PEOPLE LIKE THIS............

As a man who has and still occasionally bounces and train security personnel often. Iam sick of Aholes like this ismail. Man i have also been in similar situations in the clubs that i have worked in people will pull weapons out on ya. Its always the little folk that do it first. I dont think the cops should blame the fact that he was trained in the FMA we dont know what level he was anyway...................

THE SIMPLE MORALE OF THIS STORY IS THIS THE REALITY OF THE KNIFE.......MANY OF THE DISARMS ALOT OF PRACTITIONERS ARE LEARNING ARE NOT EFFECTIVE, ALOT OF KNIFE DISARMS WILL SIMPLY NOT WORK WITH A AGGRESIVE KNIFE WEILDING ATTACKER ATTACKING YOU.........

REMEBER THE KNIFE IS VERY VERY SHARP A SIMPLE CUT COULD SEVER ARTERIES OR EASILY PUNCTURE THE SKIN TO PENETRATE THE ORGANS, DONT FOOL YOURSELF BY LEARNING DISARMS WHICH ARE CONTROLLED YOU MUST TRY THEM AT FULL SPEED AND THEN EVEN IF YOUR 100/ 100 YOUR STILL AT A DISADVANTAGE AGAINST AN ARMED ATTACKER................................................................

hopefully this guy gets the full punishment given by NY. He has taken the life of an innocent man who was simply doing his job..
My condolences to the victims family, from all of us who are in the protection industry...


thanks 

terry


__________________


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## Yari (Apr 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *
> Yeah, this is trouble for martial artists--but also a sad story for one individual, the bouncer, and his family and friends. *



I agree on both accounts.

/Yari


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## Phil Elmore (Apr 22, 2003)

James Keating wrote an editorial about the recent incident in NYC that will appear in the first issue of The Martialist.


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## arnisandyz (Apr 22, 2003)

This is bad.  Sometimes we have such a great time training, sparring etc that we don't realize how leathal it is what we are doing or how easy it is to take a life.  This definately puts things into perspective, as I will definatley reconsider some of the things that are being taught in our club to our newer people.  Its a shame someone had to loose there life over it. Condolences to his family.


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## tshadowchaser (Apr 22, 2003)

A sad time for the family of the man killed. I'm sure we all can feel for their loss.
  The man was trained in a martial art that uses a knife and may have learned killing moves (maybe not   who knows at this time how long he studied and how good he was)   The police are looking for whoever taught him ( why :  to close him down, press charges on him, or find out what was taught).  Do the police look for the instructor and owner of every gunrange and course if someone from that course or school kills someone.   
 A weapons killing gets BIG headlines just as and Martial arts  killing will.  Blood sells papers and death sells more.  Remember " if it bleed it leads"


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## Cruentus (Apr 22, 2003)

> I had heard about this already. I was in New York City when it happened, but I didn't realize that the culprit was supposedly trained in FMA. It is very sad. It is also a lesson for practitioners and teachers out their. Knives are no joke, and should be treated like a firearm. Only use a knife if your life is in danger, and you are intent on killing the attacker. Trust me when I say this; it is very easy to forget how deadly a knife really is when your playing with it every day in class. You become desensitized to it, and next thing you know you find yourself using one and killing someone, or severly injuring someone. What happend to this accountant could have been any one of us on this forum.
> 
> Also; teachers: always cover your @$$. The media, the court system, and some Law Enforcement Officers (not all, but some) do not understand martial arts. They especially don't understand FMA. You could teach one seminar on knife defense, and some attendee whom you've never seen before exept on that one day could kill with the knife. Now your facing possible prosecution for teaching him "deadly eskrima knife techniques". This is the sad but true reality that all teachers could face. Just make sure you are insured, you make everyone sign a waiver, and that you make it a point to take the time to tell every student how deadly the knife really is. Have a set 30 second speech that you give every seminar or class on how the knife should be treated as deadly force, and that you may be responsible for ending someones life if you choose to use one. And an attacker may be responsable for ending your life if that is what they choose to attack you with. You will only benifit your students in the long run by taking the time to do this. And although this might not stop someone from using a knife to kill, at the very least it may just save you from criminal prosecution.
> 
> ...



I wanted to add, however that the situation is the most sad for Mr. Blake (the bouncer) and his family. We all train, and many of us here have done our fair share of bouncing (myself included). There are many L.E.O. here as well. You know of the possibilities, but you never expect to go into work for the last time. Hopefully as FMA instructors and practitioners we can help make people better aware of the dangers of the blade so that Bouncers and L.E.O. will be aware if they are ever caught in a situation such as this. My condolences and prayers go out to Mr. Blake and his family and friends...

 :asian:


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## Emptyglass (Apr 22, 2003)

Mr. Lamade:

I agree with what you said below. The only person to blame in this case is Mr. Umali. Considering his attempted suicide after he discovered what he had done, it seems he understood the gravity of what occured. Sorry if this did not come across, but the teacher and the art are not to blame here. Bad judgement is.

Respectfully,

Richard Curren


quote: Originally posted by lhommedieu 
After reading accounts in all three NYC major newspapers, Ive concluded that the individual in question is a fairly typical Filipino martial arts student. He sounds like the kind of guy that most of us would like to have a beer with after class. Hes attended some college, has worked as a computer programmer, and likes playing paintball gun games. His parents state that he has never been in any trouble, and that hes respectful of his elders. Weve all trained with this kind of guy. While I am not 100% sure, I also think that I know the instructor in question. Hes also a decent guy. The way that he markets his school, trains his students, and practices his art is very typical of what most of us do today. As everyone is aware, its the realistic nature of a weapons-based martial art that appeals to most people seeking a method of self-defense, and Filipino martial arts instructors generally promote this aspect of their art to some extent or another out of a sense of pride  and also to gain students. With respect to the question of whether martial arts teachers bear responsibility for the actions of these students, I offer the following:

We practice what the media has called a lethal, deadly, and vicious martial art. I recently attended an all-day seminar on the use of a knife on an unarmed opponent. The training was a lot of fun, and the illusion that I could ever be in such complete control of my environment when faced with an imminent danger to my person or my family was certainly gratifying to my ego. In the back of my mind, however, I kept asking the kinds of questions that I am sure are familiar to most martial artists that employ weapons in their training. One was: What would the circumstances have to be for me to attack an unarmed person with a knife? Answer: If I was certain that unless I used deadly force, my life or the lives of my loved ones were in immediate jeopardy. Obviously, this awareness could only take place in an extreme situation, wherein no other choice was possible. This has to be part of the mind-set of the art that we train, as well as the understanding that no one is exempt from making a tragic decision when placed under extreme stress. Unfortunately, many martial artists train for that inevitable day in the future where their skills will be put to the test, instead of learning how to temper their judgment every day. We cannot pretend that, as teachers, we do not bear some responsibility for imparting the moral and legal consequences for learning martial arts skills, particularly if we practice the martial arts that use weapons. At issue here is the juxtaposition between the way in which we often promote the dynamic and violent nature of Filipino martial arts, on the one hand, and having 20/20 hindsight when one of our students acts out his fantasies in a situation for which he was obviously, and completely, emotionally unprepared, on the other. 

On the other hand, there are obvious limits to what we can achieve as martial arts teachers. No one can teach another person to behave responsibly in every situation, no matter how much we may desire it. Perhaps the best we can do is follow the example of the schools that teach the use of the gun in self-defense (for example, LFI), and spend some more time examining the consequences of the use of lethal force with our students. 

What persuaded this guy to pull out a knife in the middle of a fight between a 250-pound bouncer and a couple of his friends? Did he think that his or someone elses life was at stake? Or did he merely allow the darker angels of his nature to end one life and irrevocably change his own forever? If the student was drinking (and here I am making an assumption) are the consequences of combining impaired judgment with this kind of knowledge so different than getting in a car while intoxicated and mowing someone down while driving home from a party? Is it different from accidentally shooting a friend on a hunting trip after ignoring common rules of gun safety? Im certainly aware that this is an imperfect analogy but I think that there is enough truth shared between both situations to merit a comparison with the actions of this individual. Youre supposed to know not to drink and drive; youre supposed to know not fool around with firearms; and youre supposed to know the limits of the use of deadly force. Im going to go out on a limb here and suggest that this individual had no idea of the consequences of his actions up until the time that he learned that the other guy had died. Now, unfortunately, he is an expert in reality-based self-defense. I think he has a lot to teach us.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## lhommedieu (Feb 19, 2005)

Just a followup:

According to the weapons forum at www.mma.tv, Mr. Umali was recently sentenced to a jail term of 17 years.

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Bammx2 (Feb 19, 2005)

I have a question.......

Would the press make such a "roohaa" if they guy had learned to use a knife while serving time in prison?

Things that make ya go hhmm....


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## lhommedieu (Feb 19, 2005)

Re. the guy who learned knife fighting in prison:

Since that's not "new" I guess it's not "news."

When the story first broke it seemed that just about anybody that taught Filipino martial arts in NYC was contacted by the press for comment (and I don't mean "liberal" press because, for example, The New York Post is not exactly a bastion of the Left - I simply mean that the dailies were looking for an interesting "slant" to give a twist to yet another horrifyiing story for mass consumption).  

It's interesting to note that the quotes they chose came from teachers who said something about the "vicious" nature of the FMA's (I don't doubt also that they may have been quoted out of context.)

What made the Umali incident interesting as far as the dailies were concerned was the concurrence of New York City's new smoking ban, a death, and the fact that Mr. Umali was in fact just an ordinary guy _who practiced a deadly fighting art with knives_, etc.  Add it all up and it equals "news."

Best,

Steve Lamade


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2005)

Now you bouncers out there dont take this the wrong way, but IMO bouncers should be there to ID, stop fights and intervene only when necessary. When it comes to removing somebody that isnt a danger to the other patrons, they should ask the person to leave and if they refuse, tell them, threaten them with trespass charges or talk them out if possible. If that fails call the police and have them remove them or charge them with trespass. Ive arrested bouncers for assault because they laid hands on somebody to eject them and then put the boots to them once they were on the sidewalk outside. Some (not all) bouncers Ive dealt with have "issues" regarding ego, attitude and being "tough guys". Now this poor man in no way "asked" or deserved to be stabbed, but physically tossing somebody out for smoking? Isnt a dangerous enough event to warrant the risk IMO...call the police.

http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub1.htm


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## Tgace (Feb 19, 2005)

For all you bouncers out there, this site has a lot of good stuff.....

http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub_security_3.htm



> USE OF FORCE
> 
> Because of my work as a consultant, I am aware of incidents where bouncers have broken bones of ejected customers. I have heard many stories about fights where the bouncers have pummeled a customer for refusing to leave the premises. There have been cases where intoxicated customers have been killed after being taken into custody by bouncers by either asphyxiation or by use of deadly force. This is not supposed to happen.
> 
> ...


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## Cruentus (Feb 20, 2005)

That is some good info Tgace, and is very true as far as I have experienced here in MI.

Yet, this is vastly misunderstood among many security professionals and bouncers; because of this many are walking liabilities...

Paul


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## Tgace (Feb 20, 2005)

And this bouncer, in this case, would still be alive.


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## AC_Pilot (Feb 20, 2005)

The dirtbag deserved a nice rope and a sturdy tree branch, not 17 years, which no doubt means 8 years and parole in NY..


This reflects on the dirtbag, not the excellent FMAs, any more than a criminal homicide with a gun has any bearing on innocent people's second amendment rights.

I will agree the knife disarms are usually worthless.. we should be thinking, if we encounter a knife, in order of success ratio:

1 Shoot him with a major caliber weapon until he drops *and do it quickly*

2 Run, if possible

3 Use something, a chair, piece of wood, something improvised to hold him off until you can enter with a disabling kick or blow

4 May work alongside #3, Use your own knife or improvised weapon to take him out, by *de-fanging the snake* and keeping clear of his blade

5 If forced at point blank range, grapple/arm bar, etc.. and try to channel the weapon aside until you can take out his fingers, hand, arm or other vitals


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 20, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Now you bouncers out there dont take this the wrong way, but IMO bouncers should be there to ID, stop fights and intervene only when necessary. When it comes to removing somebody that isnt a danger to the other patrons, they should ask the person to leave and if they refuse, tell them, threaten them with trespass charges or talk them out if possible. If that fails call the police and have them remove them or charge them with trespass. Ive arrested bouncers for assault because they laid hands on somebody to eject them and then put the boots to them once they were on the sidewalk outside. Some (not all) bouncers Ive dealt with have "issues" regarding ego, attitude and being "tough guys". Now this poor man in no way "asked" or deserved to be stabbed, but physically tossing somebody out for smoking? Isnt a dangerous enough event to warrant the risk IMO...call the police.
> 
> http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub1.htm




Tom,

I agree it is best to ask and guide them out the door.

But, here in Michigan there is no state Trespass law, and there were no local trespass laws where I worked either. And I almost always called the police first. Yet, almsot always their response time was lacking, as they were busy elsewhere. So, the incident would escalate, and I had just as many issues with the police and ego's.  Some, that even told me that I had not seen what 
I had seen, as they did not want to do the paper work. Now this is no way a representation of all police officers.  You see, most of the time to police would stand there and tell me that I was supposed to just stand by and let the guy beat the woman or the teenage girl. Or I was supposed to stand there while four or more guys beat on a guy already on the ground. I took it as my responcibility to another human being to get involved and possible save a life, then to jsut stand by.

Yet, I agree, in most cases, there are ego's involved with bouncers, and it is best to call the police, and to let others handle it, as the situation is not out of hand. Yet, sometimes, ther are situations, that require action. And to just let you know, I was never arrested, only questioned, so I guess I choose my battles well. 

Getting involved with the court system is lengthy and expensive, even if you are innocent and or jsut a witness, or possible suspect. Call the police, give them a chance to react, and respond, and only get involved if it is a life or death or serious bodily harm situation.  At least that is my opinion and experience.


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## Tgace (Feb 20, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Tom,
> 
> I agree it is best to ask and guide them out the door.
> 
> ...


So we agree?  :asian: :ultracool 

As to trespass in your state, I found this. Not arguing the fact or anything, just to illustrate what is a common misconception with trespass laws in many states.

http://www.law.umich.edu/library/


> A trespasser is a person who, willfully and without lawful authority, enters upon the property of another, after the owner or occupant, agent or servant of the owner or occupant, forbid the person to enter the property.
> 
> Also, a trespasser is a person on the property of another who, without lawful authority, neglects or refuses to depart from the property after the owner or occupant, the agent or servant of the owner or occupant, notified the person to depart from the property. *MCLA **750.552* (Michigan Compiled Laws / Michigan Compiled Laws Annotated).




and

http://www.mlswa.org/TRESPASS.htm



> Unfortunately, many police agencies (i.e. county sheriff departments, city police officers, etc.) and prosecuting officials (i.e. county prosecutors, city or township attorneys, the Michigan Attorney General's office, etc.) are reluctant to prosecute trespassersit is simply not a high priority in most jurisdictions. Many law enforcement officials will tell a complaining property owner that they cannot prosecute a trespasser until the offender trespasses a second time. Although under most laws it is not technically true that someone has to trespass a second time before they can be prosecuted, it is true that most laws require some type of prior notice. For example, *MCLA 750.552 requires that the trespass occur after the trespasser has been "forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant" or that the trespasser neglects or refuses to leave when requested by the owner or occupant *.


Not much different than in my state. "Sir, leave and dont come back or you will be charged with trespass." If he leaves...good. No paperwork necessary, unless he comes back. If he says "FU" hes arrested (as long as the owner is willing to press the charge). Sounds like the Cops you dealt with either didnt want to make the arrest, or the Bar you worked for just didnt want to file the charge ("Just get him out"). I run into that quite often. People call the police to just eject somebody but they dont want to press any charges because of the "hassle". We arent a bouncer service. If I have to use force to get somebody out of your bar its because Im arresting them. If its not worth the "hassle" of court then i guess the guys actions arent bad enough to kick him out. The same standard you should go by as a bouncer. I would think that if your employer really wanted to press charges, and the offender had refused to leave when told, an arrest could have been "pushed" for. If you get no satisfaction from a patrolman, call for a Sergeant. 

Some (note I didnt say all) bars just dont want the police scrutiny because theres stuff going on in the bar thats illegal (Liquor Authority issues, underage patrons, drug dealing etc.) or the bouncers have law problems of their own....note in this case some of the offenders were stated to be linked to members of organized crime.....


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## Tgace (Feb 20, 2005)

Around here, trespass is a great tool to get troublemakers out of stores, bars, movies when there is no other offense going on. People seem to think that stores, movies etc are "public property" and you cant make them leave. They are wrong. If they leave when told...no trespass...if they stay...a ride downtown.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 20, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> So we agree?  :asian: :ultracool
> 
> As to trespass in your state, I found this. Not arguing the fact or anything, just to illustrate what is a common misconception with trespass laws in many states.
> 
> ...




Thanks for the links

When I went looking for them in the 80's and early 90's I could not find such nor could I find a police officer willing to admit that there was or willing to arrest or press charges on such.


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## Tgace (Feb 20, 2005)

Well, an LEO cant exactly "Press Charges" for trespass. The crime didnt happen to him, and in some states (like mine) simple trespass is a violation, not a crime, so the complaintant has to "press charges" i.e. be the complainant on the charge. The first thing I ask when going to these type of calls is "If the guy wont leave will you press trespass charges?" 

If the LEO was told "we asked/told this guy to leave and he wouldnt. We want him arrested." The cops can either a. arrest him. or b. Tell the guy to leave and if he does tell the property owner to call if he returns, and then we'll arrest him.

If the patron was an ******* and the owner really desired an arrest and the LEO refused...not to criticize a fellow LEO, and not knowing all the circumstances, all I can say is I would have locked the guy up.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 21, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Well, an LEO cant exactly "Press Charges" for trespass. The crime didnt happen to him, and in some states (like mine) simple trespass is a violation, not a crime, so the complaintant has to "press charges" i.e. be the complainant on the charge. The first thing I ask when going to these type of calls is "If the guy wont leave will you press trespass charges?"
> 
> If the LEO was told "we asked/told this guy to leave and he wouldnt. We want him arrested." The cops can either a. arrest him. or b. Tell the guy to leave and if he does tell the property owner to call if he returns, and then we'll arrest him.
> 
> If the patron was an ******* and the owner really desired an arrest and the LEO refused...not to criticize a fellow LEO, and not knowing all the circumstances, all I can say is I would have locked the guy up.




Good points, and I agree with this approach. But, even when I asked, no one would approach it.

There was a nearby city suburb that actually passed a no loitering law be able to handle this issue in the late 80's. I was working a door there, real easy spot as most of the clients were Jr. High to High school and the adults just wanted to shoot pool and not be bothered. And they were not as if you were not shooting you were not in the pool section. Well this officer, wrote up some tickets, then when he was completed he asked the first kid why he was still there? He pulled out his pen to start writing a second ticket, and of course they all took off. 

I apologize for the misspeak of pressing charges. I should have said "I could nto find an officer to take my complaint, which would have allowed for the pressing of charges."


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## Jerry (Feb 22, 2005)

> I will agree the knife disarms are usually worthless..


 http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/14/woman.attacked.ap/


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## TonyM. (Feb 22, 2005)

"Well I guess I'll be calling the police now." Patron says whatever "If you're not gone by the time I reach that phone the police will be summoned to remove you for trespassing." Patron leaves quickly, sometimes issuing obscenities and or hollow threats on the way out the door. 
This scenario has happened a few times in the 26 years I've been tending bar. For the sake of politeness I won't say what would happen to one of my doormen if they ever manhandled a customer.


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## Jerry (Feb 22, 2005)

It does seem a little odd to me that a business owner or employee is disallowed from using force in order to prevent a crime (trespass). Can you use force to prevent other non-violent crimes (say breaking your door, or crawling behind the bar and drinking everything in site), or must you hope that your establishment isn't very far from an available officer? I can just imagine some little bar or strip club out in the middle of the desert with the nearest cop an hour away.


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## Tgace (Feb 22, 2005)

I dont think anybodies said you can "never" use force. There are always circumstances where you may "have" to act. You always have the right to citizens arrest, but personally I would only do that in a dire extreme due to the legal troubles that frequently result from it.


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## PragmaticMartialArtist (Feb 28, 2005)

Striking first with a knife and then running is not art.  This is martial meaning fighting or war but anyone can use a knife.  Should Wardens in prison be responsible for the knife work that goes on in prison because the warden does not intervene?  Watch some clips or read articles on prison.  The hardcore practice basic effective killing techniques based on the first strike.  Martial yes, art no.


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## Jerry (Feb 28, 2005)

If it's not an art, then it's a science... though really I think your are showing too much concern over semantics.



> Should Wardens in prison be responsible for the knife work that goes on in prison because the warden does not intervene?


 If they fail to put in a compitent and good-faith effort; yes. Part of a warden's job in to ensure the security and safety of the prison facility. This includes protecting the rights (such as the right to life, and the protection from assault) of the inmates, as well as upholding the proscription from weapon ownership.


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## PragmaticMartialArtist (Feb 28, 2005)

I agree.


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