# An Aikidoka's controversial journey into MMA: Is it helpful?



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

I've been following this guy for the past year or so, and I found his videos pretty interesting. This guy was an Aikido instructor who owned his own dojo and decided to test his Aikido against a MMA practitioner and got completely destroyed. After his first "defeat", he began to try to reform and modernize his Aikido practice mixing in elements of MMA and Bjj. However, last week he began to realize that it would serve him better to just stop practicing Aikido, close his dojo and train in MMA full time. Again, he largely based this on a second sparring match with a MMA fighter.






He's gotten a lot of hate for all of this, mainly from fellow Aikido practitioners who think that he embarrassed their art or something. I think it took stones to put your money where your mouth is and actually post a video of you fighting someone from another martial art. ESPECIALLY when you own a business or have financial stakes in your martial skill.

Anyway, my question is this; Do individuals like this hurt or help their respective styles or martial arts in general?

Oh, I almost forgot, here is a MMA coach's blistering critique of the video above;


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

His choice to do as he has done 

He obviously wants to go to MMA maybe he wants to compete and well if that is the case then fine 

I would say tho that he is no fighter and going in with that attitude to start with isn't kinda the right mindset 

As for the coach he is as entitled to his opinion as any one else however I would point out that he did right off the bat promote his dvd training !!!

He most certainly has not made himself popular in the Aikido world lol and well all the sensei he hung round with etc will feel i'd think kinda let down.

Yes he holds a BB what rank I don't know I did say in an earlier thread I thought I could see iwama in him as the way he was trying to break things down to tech levels and he most certainly was influenced by at least two sensei that were deshi in iwamma. That said his style is not the full Iwama nor is it really any one style that I can see 

I am not going to slate the guy he has made his choice and if he is happy then that is all that matters just don't base all your ideas on what he was saying or doing and one thing I will say is that his actual movement is that vid is shocking regardless of how good the other guy is he had already lost before he got in the ring lol and the mma guy had him physced out  long before the bell went ding lol 

Also do bear in mind that Aikido is not a comp MA and never will be and I have already said many time that if you stick to classical and the big circle stuff then ummmm you will lose. 

I did have a look at some of his vids and well I never once saw him have any strike delivered at him with intent it was always slow and static (hence he can't move) (his basic Aikido tech is ok not the best but ok ) Honestly it like has has chucked his toys out the pram lol


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I've been following this guy for the past year or so, and I found his videos pretty interesting. This guy was an Aikido instructor who owned his own dojo and decided to test his Aikido against a MMA practitioner and got completely destroyed. After his first "defeat", he began to try to reform and modernize his Aikido practice mixing in elements of MMA and Bjj. However, last week he began to realize that it would serve him better to just stop practicing Aikido, close his dojo and train in MMA full time. Again, he largely based this on a second sparring match with a MMA fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been following this guy for a while. It's interesting to me largely because his story mirrors my own in a lot of ways; I was in the same boat about 16 years ago when I decided to join my first MMA club and test my wingchun.

It's a hard pull to swallow. It's hard to admit your system doesn't work as intended, especially after years and years put into it. The easy way is to make rationalizations and excuses, but that doesn't actually help anything.

Only now, nearly two decades later, do I have a WC system I can actually use..and to get here I had to empty my cup.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I've been following this guy for the past year or so, and I found his videos pretty interesting. This guy was an Aikido instructor who owned his own dojo and decided to test his Aikido against a MMA practitioner and got completely destroyed. After his first "defeat", he began to try to reform and modernize his Aikido practice mixing in elements of MMA and Bjj. However, last week he began to realize that it would serve him better to just stop practicing Aikido, close his dojo and train in MMA full time. Again, he largely based this on a second sparring match with a MMA fighter.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think whether it helps or hurts the art depends on a point of view and how the mainstream of the art reacts to it. If you (generic "you") want the art to stay "pure", stuff like this is nearly always bad. Purists will rarely be able to compete with those who simply seek the best answer to a given question. If your aim is to help the art grow and become more effective for a given context, then things like this should provide useful data.

I will say I think he has the order backwards, but that's not his fault. He'd have been much better off getting a base from something like MMA training, then adding Aikido training on top of that. Then he'd understand how to use that Aikido training properly. I suspect the reason he closed his dojo was that his aim had been to teach effective counter-fighting (defensive fighting). He found out he didn't really have that to teach, so he's gone back to school. Once he gains some real ability at fighting, I suspect some of his Aikido will start to show up again. He might even end up teaching again, offering Aikido (or at least some of the principles) as an advanced add-on.

Of course, things like this do break down the mystique of things like Aikido, so that makes it harder for dojos to draw students. And since a lot of folks aren't really training for self-defense (even some who say they are - the difference is in their own focus), I'm not sure how much something like this should really matter to most practitioners.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

You can train to preserve the art or train for a reliable result.  Onky way you can do both is to train in an art that puts results above all else.  And the only arts that do this are sport arts.  

 Helping the art, keeping the art pure, preserving the integrity of the art... These are all different ways of saying the same thing.

Simply put, non-sport arts have identity and methods and look for results from these.   Sport arts look for results, and the results shape the methods, which create the identity.  This means in the former, that the art will become more and more fixed and inflexible as time marches on, while the lattwr will continue to evolve and eventually look very different depending on the goals.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Once he gains some real ability at fighting, I suspect some of his Aikido will start to show up again.


That's so true! At least in my case.

I'm not sure if it's true for aikido, but for WC, at least in my case, there are things that can only be realized and understood by training in a more alive manner. I've learned way more (functional) WC from the last year of MMA training than I ever did in the 20 previous years of classical WC.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> You can train to preserve the art or train for a reliable result.  Onky way you can do both is to train in an art that puts results above all else.  And the only arts that do this are sport arts.
> 
> Helping the art, keeping the art pure, preserving the integrity of the art... These are all different ways of saying the same thing.
> 
> Simply put, non-sport arts have identity and methods and look for results from these.   Sport arts look for results, and the results shape the methods, which create the identity.  This means in the former, that the art will become more and more fixed and inflexible as time marches on, while the lattwr will continue to evolve and eventually look very different depending on the goals.


Well said, Steve. And I think a lot of this comes from what students are taught early on about what "makes" their art - what's different about it. This is partly marketing language, partly a way of guiding thinking early on, but eventually can (doesn't have to, but often does) become a way of limiting options, rather than a way of seeking solutions. This does happen some in sport, but it's more obvious. Judo rarely includes strikes if they are training for competition, and the same with BJJ. But at least they are seeking the best solutions within the rulesets, rather than being tied to a definition of what they "should be".


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> His choice to do as he has done
> 
> He obviously wants to go to MMA maybe he wants to compete and well if that is the case then fine
> 
> ...


But this is at least in part, the delusion refers d to in the vid, it's always but he wasn't very good and or its not a competition art, which then begs two questions, who is good enough at aikido or wing Chun  or karate etal, to give a better result, and if the purpose of a martial art isn't an ability to fight, then how is it different from say yoga or Morris dancing and should the title ma be modified in some way to make it clear that it's more art than martial


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think whether it helps or hurts the art depends on a point of view and how the mainstream of the art reacts to it. If you (generic "you") want the art to stay "pure", stuff like this is nearly always bad. Purists will rarely be able to compete with those who simply seek the best answer to a given question. If your aim is to help the art grow and become more effective for a given context, then things like this should provide useful data.
> 
> I will say I think he has the order backwards, but that's not his fault. He'd have been much better off getting a base from something like MMA training, then adding Aikido training on top of that. Then he'd understand how to use that Aikido training properly. I suspect the reason he closed his dojo was that his aim had been to teach effective counter-fighting (defensive fighting). He found out he didn't really have that to teach, so he's gone back to school. Once he gains some real ability at fighting, I suspect some of his Aikido will start to show up again. He might even end up teaching again, offering Aikido (or at least some of the principles) as an advanced add-on.
> 
> Of course, things like this do break down the mystique of things like Aikido, so that makes it harder for dojos to draw students. And since a lot of folks aren't really training for self-defense (even some who say they are - the difference is in their own focus), I'm not sure how much something like this should really matter to most practitioners.



I could definitely see this guy eventually go the Roy Dean route and simply merge his Aikido training with some Bjj or MMA. He interviewed Roy Dean a few times, so I'm sure he's already considered that.

Your last point is a very interesting one, and I think that's the one where a few people get concerned with videos like these. I can imagine that individuals owning Aikido dojos aren't very happy with the present state of things, because the goal of many people in self defense (right or wrong) is to stop the boxer or the wrestler and it appears that Aikido doesn't have an answer for that at the present time.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think whether it helps or hurts the art depends on a point of view and how the mainstream of the art reacts to it. If you (generic "you") want the art to stay "pure", stuff like this is nearly always bad. Purists will rarely be able to compete with those who simply seek the best answer to a given question. If your aim is to help the art grow and become more effective for a given context, then things like this should provide useful data.
> 
> I will say I think he has the order backwards, but that's not his fault. He'd have been much better off getting a base from something like MMA training, then adding Aikido training on top of that. Then he'd understand how to use that Aikido training properly. I suspect the reason he closed his dojo was that his aim had been to teach effective counter-fighting (defensive fighting). He found out he didn't really have that to teach, so he's gone back to school. Once he gains some real ability at fighting, I suspect some of his Aikido will start to show up again. He might even end up teaching again, offering Aikido (or at least some of the principles) as an advanced add-on.
> 
> Of course, things like this do break down the mystique of things like Aikido, so that makes it harder for dojos to draw students. And since a lot of folks aren't really training for self-defense (even some who say they are - the difference is in their own focus), I'm not sure how much something like this should really matter to most practitioners.




I do agree with what your saying 

I love the classical Aikido and always will does it work on the street as in seen in the Dojo ummm no hence why I guess I arue a rattle on about Aikido so much and look deeper into things or try to lol ....Classical Aikido is flowing and beautiful to do and watch ...street Aikido is ugly and not nice to see and much of it is not recognizable to any who cannot see where certain ideas and concepts are coming from. To me and this ids just me the street Aikido is more akin to what Ueshiba first taught and what in his first book he had translated (even that he was almost forced to do and that was not translated until after his death ) , it had the Atemi and the slightly different ideas lol and well mix in a bit of pure Daito-ryu a bit of ground work and more than anything common sense and you got a street system as such.  

Really what that guy is kinda doing is burning his own bridges in a way as doing what he is doing so publicly (yeah some may call it balls ) he will find it difficult to throw off later if he ever wants to return and study more and deeper as pissing off the future shihan and high dan grades would do have clout within Aikido is not the wisest move as it kinda unlikely that he will ever he overly welcome again to grade ....I say that as really he has sorta said I'm a former BB now I'm an MMA guy and well not the wisest move at all imo

He really does seriously need to learn to move lol as he is well umm kinda got lead in his boots as far as fighting is concerned and he has (I went and looked) posted a vid saying he used Aikido in a fight himself and a near fight and noe he saying really nope it don't work what I just taught all my students offered a deshi program was all rubbish .....again not the wisest of moves imo


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> But this is at least in part, the delusion refers d to in the vid, it's always but he wasn't very good and or its not a competition art, which then begs two questions, who is good enough at aikido or wing Chun  or karate etal, to give a better result, and if the purpose of a martial art isn't an ability to fight, then how is it different from say yoga or Morris dancing and should the title ma be modified in some way to make it clear that it's more art than martial




Yeah I think I get you 

Again he ain't a fighter imo and jumping ship as he kinda has isn't gonna make him one either ....................but just my opinion ....I didn't say he wasn't good I said he was ok ....and well if you really want me to crit his Aikido I will do that in private not in public


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I could definitely see this guy eventually go the Roy Dean route and simply merge his Aikido training with some Bjj or MMA. He interviewed Roy Dean a few times, so I'm sure he's already considered that.
> 
> Your last point is a very interesting one, and I think that's the one where a few people get concerned with videos like these. I can imagine that individuals owning Aikido dojos aren't very happy with the present state of things, because the goal of many people in self defense (right or wrong) is to stop the boxer or the wrestler and it appears that Aikido doesn't have an answer for that at the present time.


I actually think Aikido has some good answers for this, but the common training approaches lack the toolset to control the situation to make Aikido's tools available. The techniques in aiki arts are often taught as "one and done" answers. Punch comes, you technique, it's over. That's an unrealistic expectation against anyone who can actually fight. You need the ability to hold your own, control the space, pace, etc to let the situation develop. That's part of how everyone works (even if they're focused on "attack first", they have to be able to hold out if the other person attacks first), and if it's lacking you end up trying to get to techniques, rather than using openings. You can see this happening pretty clearly in his first sparring video.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> But this is at least in part, the delusion refers d to in the vid, it's always but he wasn't very good and or its not a competition art, which then begs two questions, who is good enough at aikido or wing Chun  or karate etal, to give a better result, and if the purpose of a martial art isn't an ability to fight, then how is it different from say yoga or Morris dancing and should the title ma be modified in some way to make it clear that it's more art than martial



More martial than martial arts

(Mmtma)


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yeah I think I get you
> 
> Again he ain't a fighter imo and jumping ship as he kinda has isn't gonna make him one either ....................but just my opinion ....I didn't say he wasn't good I said he was ok ....and well if you really want me to crit his Aikido I will do that in private not in public


Actually, I think "jumping ship" from a training style that doesn't actually cover foundational basics to one that does will absolutely help him. There are probably schools within Aikido that could help him with that, but those are rare, and MMA gyms aren't.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I could definitely see this guy eventually go the Roy Dean route and simply merge his Aikido training with some Bjj or MMA. He interviewed Roy Dean a few times, so I'm sure he's already considered that.
> 
> Your last point is a very interesting one, and I think that's the one where a few people get concerned with videos like these. I can imagine that individuals owning Aikido dojos aren't very happy with the present state of things, because the goal of many people in self defense (right or wrong) is to stop the boxer or the wrestler and it appears that Aikido doesn't have an answer for that at the present time.




I will take issue with you that it cannot stop the wrestler or the boxer ..........if it a pro boxer then possibly not but tell me what art would ? and a wrestler yes Aikido has the tools for that 

Are you basing that on what he said when he went to ground as if you then well no basically ....yeah Aikido doesn't have ground techs the secret is don't go to ground (ok don't jump at me ) No Aikidoka will go to ground unless he makes a real screw up and again don't base that on that clip as seriously that lad is no fighter at all


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yeah I think I get you
> 
> Again he ain't a fighter imo and jumping ship as he kinda has isn't gonna make him one either ....................but just my opinion ....I didn't say he wasn't good I said he was ok ....and well if you really want me to crit his Aikido I will do that in private not in public


Ok isn't good, it's eer, just ok.
But then who is the more than just ok fighter that will uphold the reputation of aikido. And where are the contests that demonstrate this


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, I think "jumping ship" from a training style that doesn't actually cover foundational basics to one that does will absolutely help him. There are probably schools within Aikido that could help him with that, but those are rare, and MMA gyms aren't.




Yeah fair point just he has burned his bridges and publicly and maybe just me but never thought that was a wise idea better to quietly do things and seek other avenues as opposed to set things on fire lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I do agree with what your saying
> 
> I love the classical Aikido and always will does it work on the street as in seen in the Dojo ummm no hence why I guess I arue a rattle on about Aikido so much and look deeper into things or try to lol ....Classical Aikido is flowing and beautiful to do and watch ...street Aikido is ugly and not nice to see and much of it is not recognizable to any who cannot see where certain ideas and concepts are coming from. To me and this ids just me the street Aikido is more akin to what Ueshiba first taught and what in his first book he had translated (even that he was almost forced to do and that was not translated until after his death ) , it had the Atemi and the slightly different ideas lol and well mix in a bit of pure Daito-ryu a bit of ground work and more than anything common sense and you got a street system as such.
> 
> ...


I think that's honestly how he feels right now. He might change his mind later, if he actually learns how to layer the aiki movement and concepts on top of what he gets from MMA training. He may wish later he'd been less harsh in his wording, or he may not. If he was someone from NGA and came to me later to try to build on his prior NGA training, I'd be happy to have him - I'd expect his combined experience to bring a lot to a school. I don't think any of the CI's I trained under would likely have the same response.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok isn't good, it's eer, just ok.
> But then who is the more than just ok fighter that will uphold the reputation of aikido. And where are the contests that demonstrate this




There ain't any comp Aikido fighters lol or none that use pure Aikido lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yeah fair point just he has burned his bridges and publicly and maybe just me but never thought that was a wise idea better to quietly do things and seek other avenues as opposed to set things on fire lol


I agree with that. I don't think anyone knowingly taught him poorly, passed along bad techniques, etc. But right now, he's feeling very let down and is willing to share those thoughts just as he shared his disappointment in his own performance.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think that's honestly how he feels right now. He might change his mind later, if he actually learns how to layer the aiki movement and concepts on top of what he gets from MMA training. He may wish later he'd been less harsh in his wording, or he may not. If he was someone from NGA and came to me later to try to build on his prior NGA training, I'd be happy to have him - I'd expect his combined experience to bring a lot to a school. I don't think any of the CI's I trained under would likely have the same response.




Aikido is way more political and jeez if they can write out or try to Saito Morihiro then well does that give ya an idea what I mean lol


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> and a wrestler yes Aikido has the tools for that



Evidence?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with that. I don't think anyone knowingly taught him poorly, passed along bad techniques, etc. But right now, he's feeling very let down and is willing to share those thoughts just as he shared his disappointment in his own performance.




His tech isn't that bad really he just well needs more time and to get the lead outta his boots lol


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Evidence?





lol not again lol as anything I say you will just put down so lets not go there lol


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> There ain't any comp Aikido fighters lol or none that use pure Aikido lol


??????? How about impure aikido then ? I'm fact anything that looks even slightly like  aikido v an mma, fighter.

Saying he is no fighter and his skills are" ok" rather suggests that there exists a fighter with better skills that would change the result of at least the performance level.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> ??????? How about impure aikido then ? I'm fact anything that looks even slightly like  aikido v an mma, fighter.
> 
> Saying he is no fighter and his skills are" ok" rather suggests that there exists a fighter with better skills that would change the result of at least the performance level.




Bro there is no footage I know of that shows any pure Aikidoka going in a ring with an MMA guy ....Aikikido is not a comp art (and beore anyone yells Tomiki ok that is but under very very different rules lol)


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I do agree with what your saying
> 
> I love the classical Aikido and always will does it work on the street as in seen in the Dojo ummm no hence why I guess I arue a rattle on about Aikido so much and look deeper into things or try to lol ....Classical Aikido is flowing and beautiful to do and watch ...street Aikido is ugly and not nice to see and much of it is not recognizable to any who cannot see where certain ideas and concepts are coming from. To me and this ids just me the street Aikido is more akin to what Ueshiba first taught and what in his first book he had translated (even that he was almost forced to do and that was not translated until after his death ) , it had the Atemi and the slightly different ideas lol and well mix in a bit of pure Daito-ryu a bit of ground work and more than anything common sense and you got a street system as such.
> 
> ...


Maybe it's occurred to him that having a successful you tube channel is more profitable than running a dojo ?


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I will take issue with you that it cannot stop the wrestler or the boxer ..........if it a pro boxer then possibly not but tell me what art would ? and a wrestler yes Aikido has the tools for that



Honestly? Gracie JJ practitioners have defeated pro boxers in the past. Royce Gracie in particular fought and beat a professional boxer in the first UFC. Judo Gene Lebelle also beat a professional boxer some years ago. So that's two martial arts right there.



> Are you basing that on what he said when he went to ground as if you then well no basically ....yeah Aikido doesn't have ground techs the secret is don't go to ground (ok don't jump at me ) No Aikidoka will go to ground unless he makes a real screw up and again don't base that on that clip as seriously that lad is no fighter at all



Yeah, that's a pretty bad secret. Instead of teaching someone "not to go to the ground" the student should be taught how to fight from that position. With all the information available, there's no excuse to not learn how to fight from that position.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Bro there is no footage I know of that shows any pure Aikidoka going in a ring with an MMA guy ....Aikikido is not a comp art (and beore anyone yells Tomiki ok that is but under very very different rules lol)


Yes I know that, it's major problem and that of a good few other arts, is they don't compete and thus refine their skills..

That just pointing out the problem identified in the vid, 
But the solution to that issue is what ?

Accept its not a good way to learn to fight.
Insist it is, but refuse to demonstrating that and criticise any one who tries as not  very good.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly? Gracie JJ practitioners have defeated pro boxers in the past. Royce Gracie in particular fought and beat a professional boxer in the first UFC. Judo Gene Lebelle also beat a professional boxer some years ago. So that's two martial arts right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's a pretty bad secret. Instead of teaching someone "not to go to the ground" the student should be taught how to fight from that position. With all the information available, there's no excuse to not learn how to fight from that position.




Using a Gracie is ummm wwell picking the cream of the top is it not 

And no excuse ok ...... I not gonna go into tha as you may well not like what I will come up with or say so lets not go down the excuse road ok .................................The tools are there they are all there it is how you use them


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes I know that, it's major problem and that of a good few other arts, is they don't compete and thus refine their skills..
> 
> That just pointing out the problem identified in the vid,
> 
> ...


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Using a Gracie is ummm wwell picking the cream of the top is it not



Well we were talking about professionals, so that kind of means the cream of the crop right? If you sparse it out a bit, boxers have generally done poorly against MMA and BJJ practitioners because of the lack of ground game and take down defense.  



> And no excuse ok ...... I not gonna go into tha as you may well not like what I will come up with or say so lets not go down the excuse road ok .................................The tools are there they are all there it is how you use them



No need to be defensive. You made a claim and people are simply curious about it and want you to provide evidence to back up your claim.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok isn't good, it's eer, just ok.
> But then who is the more than just ok fighter that will uphold the reputation of aikido. And where are the contests that demonstrate this


Against a good fighter, it would take an exceptional fighter (in my opinion) to use a lot of aiki movement - what we might actually recognize as Aikido. A good fighter will be using the same foundation as people from other styles (solid defense against striking, their own striking game, etc.) more often than Aikido. Then, when they go to grappling, they'll look a bit more like a Judo player or Jitser than "classical" Aikido, unless something just sets up beautifully. Again, look to Tomiki's Shotokan Aikido and their competitions, and you'll see what I mean.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> lol not again lol as anything I say you will just put down so lets not go there lol



No..I've never put anything down. As before, an unsupported claim has been made. If you can't or won't provide evidence for a claim, why even make it?

I could just as easily say wingchun has the solution for beating wrestlers, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take me too seriously if I couldn't back that claim up. At it so happens I would never make that claim.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Honestly? Gracie JJ practitioners have defeated pro boxers in the past. Royce Gracie in particular fought and beat a professional boxer in the first UFC. Judo Gene Lebelle also beat a professional boxer some years ago. So that's two martial arts right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, that's a pretty bad secret. Instead of teaching someone "not to go to the ground" the student should be taught how to fight from that position. With all the information available, there's no excuse to not learn how to fight from that position.


Aikido does actually have ground techniques. They are from the knees, rather than from mount/guard, but they do provide the framework for ground defense. In fact, there are several classical drills that are specifically done from kneeling positions, and there used to be (not sure if there still is) a lot of kneeling technique taught. If that's trained with some resistance, it can create a reasonable set of answers from being knocked down. They don't have much that I've seen in the way of what to do if someone shoots in and takes you directly to your back, though the principles for basic BJJ bridging/sweeps would be easy to incorporate.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well we were talking about professionals, so that kind of means the cream of the crop right? If you sparse it out a bit, boxers have generally done poorly against MMA and BJJ practitioners because of the lack of ground game and take down defense.
> 
> 
> 
> No need to be defensive. You made a claim and people are simply curious about it and want you to provide evidence to back up your claim.





No you my friend raised the pros names lol ......

defensive yup  I will always defend Aikido come what may but to list everything that could be done is pointless really 

but in that vid he tried to go for a wrist lock ....well the othere guy had gloves on he did not even remotely try to enter he was like a rabbit in the head lights from the get go and he in some ways beat himself ......do you think all Aikidoka move like that ? cause I can assure ya they don't lol


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Against a good fighter, it would take an exceptional fighter (in my opinion) to use a lot of aiki movement - what we might actually recognize as Aikido. A good fighter will be using the same foundation as people from other styles (solid defense against striking, their own striking game, etc.) more often than Aikido. Then, when they go to grappling, they'll look a bit more like a Judo player or Jitser than "classical" Aikido, unless something just sets up beautifully. Again, look to Tomiki's Shotokan Aikido and their competitions, and you'll see what I mean.


I don't know where to go with that,??? Does that mean that some where there is a GREAT a aikido fighter who could take on a good mma  fighter using aikido and at least make a contest of it, ? Is this an actual identifiable person or a myth like say dragons, or just a conclusion that in a universe of infinite possibilities such a person must exist, possibly as close as a few million light years away


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> No..I've never put anything down. As before, an unsupported claim has been made. If you can't or won't provide evidence for a claim, why even make it?
> 
> I could just as easily say wingchun has the solution for beating wrestlers, but I wouldn't expect anyone to take me too seriously if I couldn't back that claim up. At it so happens I would never make that claim.




No matter what I say you won't believe and I am not going back to you then demanding vids and then saying I'm having a go etc etc et al 


You have your view and that great I ain't gonna change it so there it is


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Aikido does actually have ground techniques. They are from the knees, rather than from mount/guard, but they do provide the framework for ground defense. In fact, there are several classical drills that are specifically done from kneeling positions, and there used to be (not sure if there still is) a lot of kneeling technique taught. If that's trained with some resistance, it can create a reasonable set of answers from being knocked down. They don't have much that I've seen in the way of what to do if someone shoots in and takes you directly to your back, though the principles for basic BJJ bridging/sweeps would be easy to incorporate.



Suwari waza isn't really ground tech and I doubt if folks would see it as ground tech


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No matter what I say you won't believe and I am not going back to you then demanding vids and then saying I'm having a go etc etc et al
> 
> 
> You have your view and that great I ain't gonna change it so there it is


You're right, only evidence would change it. I would imagine you are the same way about every other subject but this one.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I will say I think he has the order backwards, but that's not his fault. He'd have been much better off getting a base from something like MMA training, then adding Aikido training on top of that. Then he'd understand how to use that Aikido training properly. I suspect the reason he closed his dojo was that his aim had been to teach effective counter-fighting (defensive fighting). He found out he didn't really have that to teach, so he's gone back to school. Once he gains some real ability at fighting, I suspect some of his Aikido will start to show up again. He might even end up teaching again, offering Aikido (or at least some of the principles) as an advanced add-on.


In one of Ramsey Dewey's videos he mentions a student of his who holds a black belt in Aikido. One day Ramsey was watching the student spar and the guy pulls of some spectacular Aikido throw. (Ramsey doesn't specify exactly which one it was, but says it was one of those impressive ones that you never seem to see in free sparring.) Afterwards, Ramsey commented on it and his student responded that "Aikido only works when you already know how to fight. That's why I came to you - to learn how to fight."


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> I don't know where to go with that,??? Does that mean that some where there is a GREAT a aikido fighter who could take on a good mma  fighter using aikido and at least make a contest of it, ? Is this an actual identifiable person or a myth like say dragons, or just a conclusion that in a universe of infinite possibilities such a person must exist, possibly as close as a few million light years away




No just you ain't gonna see a classical Aikidoka in a ring lol ....at least I wouldn't think so


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> You're right, only evidence would change it. I would imagine you are the same way about every other subject but this one.




Ok your right as always and the barb was not needed buy hey ho thats your way


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In one of Ramsey Dewey's videos he mentions a student of his who holds a black belt in Aikido. One day Ramsey was watching the student spar and the guy pulls of some spectacular Aikido throw. (Ramsey doesn't specify exactly which one it was, but says it was one of those impressive ones that you never seem to see in free sparring.) Afterwards, Ramsey commented on it and his student responded that "Aikido only works when you already know how to fight. That's why I came to you - to learn how to fight."




Now that I would agree with


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ok your right as always and the barb was not needed buy hey ho thats your way


It wasn't a ''barb". I was assuming you were a reasonable person that forms his beliefs based on evidence and experience rather than a desire to believe. Am I wrong?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> I don't know where to go with that,??? Does that mean that some where there is a GREAT a aikido fighter who could take on a good mma  fighter using aikido and at least make a contest of it, ? Is this an actual identifiable person or a myth like say dragons, or just a conclusion that in a universe of infinite possibilities such a person must exist, possibly as close as a few million light years away


It's possible there is. My point is that it'd take an exceptional example to use purely the "aiki" side of things against a good fighter. It needs the foundation of fighting basics, so that you don't have to rely solely upon the aiki aspects. Reports from early Aikido suggest that some of those guys had that kind of ability, but it's hard to know how accurate any of that was, and how much was staged.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Using a Gracie is ummm wwell picking the cream of the top is it not


Royce Gracie is a very good BJJ fighter (much better than I am) and deserves credit for being one of the pioneers in modern MMA. That said, he's not one of the toughest Gracies and he was never one of the top BJJ competitors. There were plenty of non-Gracie BJJ practitioners in his generation who were better than he was.  The boxer Royce beat in UFC 1 (Art Jimmerson) was arguably more experienced and accomplished in boxing at the time than Royce was in BJJ,


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Suwari waza isn't really ground tech and I doubt if folks would see it as ground tech


If it's on the ground, it's ground technique, from my point of view. In other words, if it's not standing (leaving kneeling, lying down, sitting), then it's useful for recovery from being put on the ground.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> It wasn't a ''barb". I was assuming you were a reasonable person that forms his beliefs based on evidence and experience rather than a desire to believe. Am I wrong?




Look Bro i cannot give you the vid evidence you desire ....if I start quoting tech names at you you'll just pop off find a dojo or demo vid and come back and say nope crap doesn't work ....so no matter what I say it never going to satisfy you ....


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Royce Gracie is a very good BJJ fighter (much better than I am) and deserves credit for being one of the pioneers in modern MMA. That said, he's not one of the toughest Gracies and he was never one of the top BJJ competitors. There were plenty of non-Gracie BJJ practitioners in his generation who were better than he was.  The boxer Royce beat in UFC 1 (Art Jimmerson) was arguably more experienced and accomplished in boxing at the time than Royce was in BJJ,




Yeah what I was getting at was pulling that family into this was strange as the guy in the vid ain't no pro


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In one of Ramsey Dewey's videos he mentions a student of his who holds a black belt in Aikido. One day Ramsey was watching the student spar and the guy pulls of some spectacular Aikido throw. (Ramsey doesn't specify exactly which one it was, but says it was one of those impressive ones that you never seem to see in free sparring.) Afterwards, Ramsey commented on it and his student responded that "Aikido only works when you already know how to fight. That's why I came to you - to learn how to fight."


Great example. I agree with his statement, entirely.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If it's on the ground, it's ground technique, from my point of view. In other words, if it's not standing (leaving kneeling, lying down, sitting), then it's useful for recovery from being put on the ground.




Hmmm ok but suwari waza ok I get your point ....I just don't look on it as ground tech as it has a specific set to it as in either seiza or hisa and yes if your in that and a person comes at you then ok but if you are on the ground atually "wrestling then I don't see it having alot of bearing yeah ok you can still try and do locks but well I can't see it as total ground work and I am the defender of Aikido


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Look Bro i cannot give you the vid evidence you desire ....if I start quoting tech names at you you'll just pop off find a dojo or demo vid and come back and say nope crap doesn't work ....so no matter what I say it never going to satisfy you ....


That is also correct, and this is nothing against you or against aikido, or anyone, but if a claim runs contrary to my experience I'm going to need actual evidence to change my mind. 

Anyhow, I understand the emotional investment you have in this. You trained aikido for a good amount of years right? I was in your same boat once, defending classical WC to anyone that would listen. I get it.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's possible there is. My point is that it'd take an exceptional example to use purely the "aiki" side of things against a good fighter. It needs the foundation of fighting basics, so that you don't have to rely solely upon the aiki aspects. Reports from early Aikido suggest that some of those guys had that kind of ability, but it's hard to know how accurate any of that was, and how much was staged.


Like I say I don't know where to go with your point or really what point your trying to make, there are exceptional people around in all sports, I can point a finger at them, saying for instance that it would take an exceptional athlete to run a 100 in 5 seconds is both true and pointless as that athlete has not this far existed, oit side of fantasy comics..

So if your point is, that this exceptional person exists where/ who is he or she, if your admitting in a convoluted way that they don't actually exist, then say so.

Your other point is if you mix aikido with other ma, it becomes effective, I'm accept that as truth, but that then still calls for a working example and begs the question why aikido with out the mix


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Hmmm ok but suwari waza ok I get your point ....I just don't look on it as ground tech as it has a specific set to it as in either seiza or hisa and yes if your in that and a person comes at you then ok but if you are on the ground atually "wrestling then I don't see it having alot of bearing yeah ok you can still try and do locks but well I can't see it as total ground work and I am the defender of Aikido


I’d consider it ground technique, but covering only a very small subset of the ground fighting context.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’d consider it ground technique, but covering only a very small subset of the ground fighting context.




Yes but it limited ...if you in hiza and a person comes at you from standing then yes it has it's techs there for sure and nothing really in the tech arsenal from standing cannot be really applied from hiza ...but if you have been taken down then I don't see anything in what I know that would get me outta the crap like you could with your background


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I’d consider it ground technique, but covering only a very small subset of the ground fighting context.




I'm trying to think of a situation where if I went into hiza it would be of any real advantage except for possibly taking away the chance for leg grabs ???  as really the ground is the last place I wanna be truly


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'm trying to think of a situation where if I went into hiza it would be of any real advantage except for possibly taking away the chance for leg grabs ???  as really the ground is the last place I wanna be truly



I find it helpful to work things from the knees against a standing opponent.its a very common transitionary ground position, either having been forced there, gone there willingly and it didn't go according to plan(like say if you shoot a double and get sprawled on), or if you are on your way back to your feet from the ground.

 The one thing about position is you don't always get to pick. It's good to drill from all positions you very well might end up in to save you from being smashed in those positions later.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Hmmm ok but suwari waza ok I get your point ....I just don't look on it as ground tech as it has a specific set to it as in either seiza or hisa and yes if your in that and a person comes at you then ok but if you are on the ground atually "wrestling then I don't see it having alot of bearing yeah ok you can still try and do locks but well I can't see it as total ground work and I am the defender of Aikido


As I said, it lacks the "on your back" stuff, but the suwari waza gives a framework for learning to fight from other ground positions. The same basic principles that can be adapted from standing technique can be adapted from suwari waza, as well. It's unlikely to look like the training drills from suwari waza, but it's there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Like I say I don't know where to go with your point or really what point your trying to make, there are exceptional people around in all sports, I can point a finger at them, saying for instance that it would take an exceptional athlete to run a 100 in 5 seconds is both true and pointless as that athlete has not this far existed, oit side of fantasy comics..
> 
> So if your point is, that this exceptional person exists where/ who is he or she, if your admitting in a convoluted way that they don't actually exist, then say so.
> 
> Your other point is if you mix aikido with other ma, it becomes effective, I'm accept that as truth, but that then still calls for a working example and begs the question why aikido with out the mix


I thought I made my point pretty clearly. Aikido - when stripped down to the classical and entirely aiki stuff - is at a handicap.

You seem to be taking my statement to be something it's not.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> As I said, it lacks the "on your back" stuff, but the suwari waza gives a framework for learning to fight from other ground positions. The same basic principles that can be adapted from standing technique can be adapted from suwari waza, as well. It's unlikely to look like the training drills from suwari waza, but it's there.




All the standing techs can be done from suwari ...it the ease of movement that I'm getting at yes they can be adapted like any other as you say just that is one thing I must admit does not instill me with confidence lol


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'm trying to think of a situation where if I went into hiza it would be of any real advantage except for possibly taking away the chance for leg grabs ???  as really the ground is the last place I wanna be truly


I can't imagine a situation where it would be an advantage. But imagine you've just fallen (shoved, slipped on some beer, tripped over something, whatever) and managed NOT to end up on your back - and the other guy is either standing or kneeling, continuing his attack. You do have some tools there that can be put to use. I don't think the way they are commonly taught gets to that point.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I thought I made my point pretty clearly. Aikido - when stripped down to the classical and entirely aiki stuff - is at a handicap.
> 
> You seem to be taking my statement to be something it's not.


Ok so it becomes more effective if you turn it into a mixed martial art, ? Does it become as effective as the other more famous mixed martial art, ? If not, why not mix it with other ma so it is ?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I find it helpful to work things from the knees against a standing opponent.its a very common transitionary ground position, either having been forced there, gone there willingly and it didn't go according to plan(like say if you shoot a double and get sprawled on), or if you are on your way back to your feet from the ground.
> 
> The one thing about position is you don't always get to pick. It's good to drill from all positions you very well might end up in to save you from being smashed in those positions later.




I get what your saying in gist just suwari waza is not something that fills me with confidence at all ....yes I can do it (or could lol) just other that or the mats I'd not be over confident and it would be really a last resort for sure at least for me


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can't imagine a situation where it would be an advantage. But imagine you've just fallen (shoved, slipped on some beer, tripped over something, whatever) and managed NOT to end up on your back - and the other guy is either standing or kneeling, continuing his attack. You do have some tools there that can be put to use. I don't think the way they are commonly taught gets to that point.




Oh yeah I get you there I am not saying I wouldn't just that confines are not something I'd actually like to test out lol ...but I do get your point ...


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok so it becomes more effective if you turn it into a mixed martial art, ? Does it become as effective as the other more famous mixed martial art, ? If not, why not mix it with other ma so it is ?


That'll depend how we define "more effective". I don't see the aiki stuff as a primary defense, but as a top layer that opens new opportunities for finishing and some new evasions. I think it is at its best when mixed with other MA, or at least taught with a fighting foundation. What it makes available isn't probably worth the effort for MMA competition, since the better the competitors get, the less likely they are to provide those openings very often.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I get what your saying in gist just suwari waza is not something that fills me with confidence at all ....yes I can do it (or could lol) just other that or the mats I'd not be over confident and it would be really a last resort for sure at least for me


That's actually a good thing. Being on the ground is bad, and should be a last resort in most situations, unless you heavily outclass your attacker down there - something that's hard to know until you're into it.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> Ok so it becomes more effective if you turn it into a mixed martial art, ? Does it become as effective as the other more famous mixed martial art, ? If not, why not mix it with other ma so it is ?




see if you read the post by @Tony Dismukes ....if you know how to fight then Aikido techs are extremely useful .....but just going classical and thinking on the street that would work well it might but I seriously wouldn't like to try it


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That'll depend how we define "more effective". I don't see the aiki stuff as a primary defense, but as a top layer that opens new opportunities for finishing and some new evasions. I think it is at its best when mixed with other MA, or at least taught with a fighting foundation. What it makes available isn't probably worth the effort for MMA competition, since the better the competitors get, the less likely they are to provide those openings very often.


More effective would seem to be that it wins more fights, but here's the conundrum, if your going to mix it with say judo, what not mix it with Brazilian jujitsu, instead, and then any other effective technique, then it no time at all it would look almost exactly like mma,


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I thought I made my point pretty clearly. Aikido - when stripped down to the classical and entirely aiki stuff - is at a handicap.
> 
> You seem to be taking my statement to be something it's not.




that cause so much in modern dojo's is placed on the Aiki side and that is what people see and actually trying to get a person to grasp the Aiki and it's meaning is often like smacking the head on the brick wall lol

and your spot on aiki is only part of it not the whole just that gets misinterpreted mostly imo


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> More effective would seem to be that it wins more fights, but here's the conundrum, if your going to mix it with say judo, what not mix it with Brazilian jujitsu, instead, and then any other effective technique, then it no time at all it would look almost exactly like mma,




Bro some or the original Judoka were sent to Ueshiba to study ...to me if you gonna mix it then BJJ is the one and the rest in my view is there ...ok it may not be taught now but it there


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> see if you read the post by @Tony Dismukes ....if you know how to fight then Aikido techs are extremely useful .....but just going classical and thinking on the street that would work well it might but I seriously wouldn't like to try it



To be fair, I learned to fight by taking Bjj, Karate, Boxing, and other MAs. Are you saying that Aikido essentially doesn't teach you how to fight?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> More effective would seem to be that it wins more fights, but here's the conundrum, if your going to mix it with say judo, what not mix it with Brazilian jujitsu, instead, and then any other effective technique, then it no time at all it would look almost exactly like mma,


No reason not to, really. Aikido can combine with any style, I think. Of course, once you combine enough styles, it's not really Aikido+ anymore, it's an amalgam of styles. Nothing wrong with that. But if someone wants to stick with Aikido, and want it to have fighting effectiveness, they need something to provide the foundation. That can be taught within the school (basic striking, basic grappling) or learned elsewhere. 

I doubt adding Aikido to something makes it likely to win more fights by any significant margin if you counted on seeing specific techniques. It will open up some new opportunities, so might bring some margin of additional success over time, and that will probably come more from the principles than the techniques. I think it's more likely to extend the longevity of the overall skillset, reducing the need for speed and strength somewhat with normal mortals.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I could definitely see this guy eventually go the Roy Dean route and simply merge his Aikido training with some Bjj or MMA. He interviewed Roy Dean a few times, so I'm sure he's already considered that.
> 
> Your last point is a very interesting one, and I think that's the one where a few people get concerned with videos like these. I can imagine that individuals owning Aikido dojos aren't very happy with the present state of things, because the goal of many people in self defense (right or wrong) is to stop the boxer or the wrestler and it appears that Aikido doesn't have an answer for that at the present time.



I have some difficulty accepting that Aikido doesn't have an answer to boxers and wrestlers.  Perhaps some of the Aikido practitioners will correct me if I am wrong.  At least within the Aikido rule set.  MMA has a different rule set, just as boxing and wrestling, and rightly so.  Then one must consider the relative abilities of any two contestants.

Like @now disabled I have a curiosity about the way the Aikidoist reacted to the attacks.  It may he was befuddled by a new rule set, I don't know.  But he looked way more unsure of himself than I would have expected of someone who is allowed to have his own Aikido school.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> To be fair, I learned to fight by taking Bjj, Karate, Boxing, and other MAs. Are you saying that Aikido essentially doesn't teach you how to fight?




Nope lol where are you basing that one on?


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have some difficulty accepting that Aikido doesn't have an answer to boxers and wrestlers.  Perhaps some of the Aikido practitioners will correct me if I am wrong.  At least within the Aikido rule set.  MMA has a different rule set, just as boxing and wrestling, and rightly so.  Then one must consider the relative abilities of any two contestants.



Well the difference is that Boxing and Wrestling advertise themselves as competitive sports. Aikido advertises itself as a holistic self defense system.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> No reason not to, really. Aikido can combine with any style, I think. Of course, once you combine enough styles, it's not really Aikido+ anymore, it's an amalgam of styles. Nothing wrong with that. But if someone wants to stick with Aikido, and want it to have fighting effectiveness, they need something to provide the foundation. That can be taught within the school (basic striking, basic grappling) or learned elsewhere.
> 
> I doubt adding Aikido to something makes it likely to win more fights by any significant margin if you counted on seeing specific techniques. It will open up some new opportunities, so might bring some margin of additional success over time, and that will probably come more from the principles than the techniques. I think it's more likely to extend the longevity of the overall skillset, reducing the need for speed and strength somewhat with normal mortals.




just adds more tools in the tool chest if you combine


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Nope lol where are you basing that one on?



You said that Aikido techs are effective if you already know how to fight. That would imply that if you don't know how to fight, the Aikido techs aren't effective. 

It should also be noted that it would difficult if not impossible to become a high ranking Bjj practicioner or a Boxing/Wrestling coach without effective technques.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well the difference is that Boxing and Wrestling advertise themselves as competitive sports. Aikido advertises itself as a holistic self defense system.




Ah now we gonna get into it lol ....what are you basing that on lol as I will debate with you on that totally


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> You said that Aikido techs are effective if you already know how to fight. That would imply that if you don't know how to fight, the Aikido techs aren't effective.
> 
> It should also be noted that it would difficult if not impossible to become a high ranking Bjj practicioner or a Boxing/Wrestling coach without effective technques.




no Aikido techs are effective .....the learning to fight is a whole different ball park


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I have some difficulty accepting that Aikido doesn't have an answer to boxers and wrestlers.  Perhaps some of the Aikido practitioners will correct me if I am wrong.  At least within the Aikido rule set.  MMA has a different rule set, just as boxing and wrestling, and rightly so.  Then one must consider the relative abilities of any two contestants.
> 
> Like @now disabled I have a curiosity about the way the Aikidoist reacted to the attacks.  It may he was befuddled by a new rule set, I don't know.  But he looked way more unsure of himself than I would have expected of someone who is allowed to have his own Aikido school.


There are techniques and movement within Aikido that will work against boxers and wrestlers. But the common training approach won't make them useful in that context. To have a chance that an aiki opportunity will present with a boxer, I first need to be able to keep him from clobbering me or jabbing me to death. I need the ability to control the situation with movement, strikes, and/or grappling. A similar issue exists for dealing with a wrestler - I need the ability to keep him from taking me down before I can do anything. Once I can remain in the fight, so to speak, then there are opportunities to use what Aikido contains. I'll add that if you don't insist on an absolutely aiki approach (meaning, you train the techniques being willing to use muscle and leverage when they will work), then Aikido does have useful tools for grappling. If nothing else, practicing the techniques that way would provide a good foundation for learning to resist grappling (so better defense against that wrestler).

I think the issue is that folks want to step in and use their Aikido right off, like they do in training. They want that first jab to end up with the boxer on his butt. Not likely to happen, unless he's being really cocky.


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ah now we gonna get into it lol ....what are you basing that on lol as I will debate with you on that totally



The Aikido FAQ: Introduction To Aikido

So are these people wrong in regards to the self defense portion?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well the difference is that Boxing and Wrestling advertise themselves as competitive sports. Aikido advertises itself as a holistic self defense system.



Maybe you could expand on that a little as to rule sets of Boxing and Wrestling versus the what I would guess are the relative lack of a rule set in Aikido?

EDIT:  It occurs to me there is a disconnect there.  How many times here on MT have MMA practitioners touted themselves and there art as the best self defense thing going?  Or is MMA and boxing and wrestling so different?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The Aikido FAQ: Introduction To Aikido
> 
> So are these people wrong in regards to the self defense portion?


They mostly say there it will take longer than other arts to get to self-defense effectiveness. They're correct in that. Depending how they train, they may or may not be including a fighting base (which I think is _almost_ necessary for self-defense).


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Maybe you could expand on that a little as to rule sets of Boxing and Wrestling versus the what I would guess are the relative lack of a rule set in Aikido?



People place their kids into boxing and wrestling programs almost exclusively for competitive purposes. People walking into an Aikido dojo are looking for a system of self defense that will protect them. I'm fully aware that there are those who also learn Aikido for spiritual purposes, but we would be lying to ourselves if we believed that the majority of people taking Aikido weren't doing it for martial purposes.


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> They mostly say there it will take longer than other arts to get to self-defense effectiveness. They're correct in that. Depending how they train, they may or may not be including a fighting base (which I think is _almost_ necessary for self-defense).



They also say this;



> Yes, Aikido can be a *very effective form of self-defense* However, it can take considerable time and effort before Aikido (or any martial art) can be used effectively in a self-defense situation.



Which I think is a very interesting statement to make.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> People place their kids into boxing and wrestling programs almost exclusively for competitive purposes. People walking into an Aikido dojo are looking for a system of self defense that will protect them. I'm fully aware that there are those who also learn Aikido for spiritual purposes, but we would be lying to ourselves if we believed that the majority of people taking Aikido weren't doing it for martial purposes.


I'm not sure most people walking into most Aikido dojos are actually looking for self-defense as their primary goal, but you make a valid point. Most Aikido schools (frankly, most martial arts schools) market self-defense. If you're going to market that, there should be some early focus on it.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> The Aikido FAQ: Introduction To Aikido
> 
> So are these people wrong in regards to the self defense portion?




Have you ever been in an Aikido dojo ? not being nasty just asking and if so what style


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> They also say this;
> 
> 
> 
> Which I think is a very interesting statement to make.


I found their "can be" hedging (instead of "is") rather surprisingly honest. I don't know if they meant me to read it that way, but that stuck out to me.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> They also say this;
> 
> 
> 
> Which I think is a very interesting statement to make.




yup it does take quite a while to learn lol as there a lot to it and well when you get to yudansha then your going to start to learn .................. it is not a wham bam learn in a year art but yup get it down and get the opening and it will be extremely quick and painful


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I found their "can be" hedging (instead of "is") rather surprisingly honest. I don't know if they meant me to read it that way, but that stuck out to me.




they are hedging lol the list the schools and well I do not entirely agree how they are grouping them


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Have you ever been in an Aikido dojo ? not being nasty just asking and if so what style



No offense taken. I've taken a few introductory classes with what I believe was an Aikikai-based school? Frankly their attitudes were similar to what I've found in most MA schools: "If your attacker comes at you like this, you can do this!"


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure most people walking into most Aikido dojos are actually looking for self-defense as their primary goal, but you make a valid point. Most Aikido schools (frankly, most martial arts schools) market self-defense. If you're going to market that, there should be some early focus on it.




Imo most that take up Aikido do not do so for to learn to fight etc and i they do then they leave as it not the quick fix they looking for


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No offense taken. I've taken a few introductory classes with what I believe was an Aikikai-based school? Frankly their attitudes were similar to what I've found in most MA schools: "If your attacker comes at you like this, you can do this!"



Right first off do you think the hombu Aikikai is the trad school of Aikido?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> No offense taken. I've taken a few introductory classes with what I believe was an Aikikai-based school? Frankly their attitudes were similar to what I've found in most MA schools: "If your attacker comes at you like this, you can do this!"




Yup I get you there ok ...that is kihon waza not nagare waza


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure most people walking into most Aikido dojos are actually looking for self-defense as their primary goal, but you make a valid point. Most Aikido schools (frankly, most martial arts schools) market self-defense. If you're going to market that, there should be some early focus on it.



I really have yet to find an Aikido school that doesn't prominently advertise self defense.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I really have yet to find an Aikido school that doesn't prominently advertise self defense.




it is my friend just it not the quick fix type of self defense is has to be learned and absorbed and then tweaked ...(how much tweaking depends on the style) and when they say there are no different styles they are wrong as there are lol there so are and even within the Aikikai there are lol


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> yup it does take quite a while to learn lol as there a lot to it and well when you get to yudansha then your going to start to learn .................. it is not a wham bam learn in a year art but yup get it down and get the opening and it will be extremely quick and painful



So you don't start to really learn Aikido until black belt?



now disabled said:


> it is my friend just it not the quick fix type of self defense is has to be learned and absorbed and then tweaked ...(how much tweaking depends on the style) and when they say there are no different styles they are wrong as there are lol there so are and even within the Aikikai there are lol



If this is the case, then why do Aikidoka state that Aikido is ineffective against trained fighters?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you don't start to really learn Aikido until black belt?




imo until you reach there you will not fully fully start getting the nuances etc and the things that well get left out or indeed you won't need  as before that it unlikely in the Aikikai anyway that anyone will come at you at full force as up till then your grinding out the kihon waza the basics ...getting to understand why how where and what for and how. When you reach the yudansha you should have that and then you start moving really forward as in learning ok if I do that at full force it gonna need more added (ie atemi ) you should by that time have the good start to getting what Aiki is and means (not the hocus pocus stuff) and also then you will start to see why and where the flaws are how you can "fix" em and why if you do the big classical big circle it will only work if (1) your lucky (2) the opponent can't fight and (3) he gonna fully co-operate


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> imo until you reach there you will not fully fully start getting the nuances etc and the things that well get left out or indeed you won't need  as before that it unlikely in the Aikikai anyway that anyone will come at you at full force as up till then your grinding out the kihon waza the basics ...getting to understand why how where and what for and how. When you reach the yudansha you should have that and then you start moving really forward as in learning ok if I do that at full force it gonna need more added (ie atemi ) you should by that time have the good start to getting what Aiki is and means (not the hocus pocus stuff) and also then you will start to see why and where the flaws are how you can "fix" em and why if you do the big classical big circle it will only work if (1) your lucky (2) the opponent can't fight and (3) he gonna fully co-operate


Would you not need to be a shodan or higher yourself to know this?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Would you not need to be a shodan or higher yourself to know this?




Ummm yes lol


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> imo until you reach there you will not fully fully start getting the nuances etc and the things that well get left out or indeed you won't need  as before that it unlikely in the Aikikai anyway that anyone will come at you at full force as up till then your grinding out the kihon waza the basics ....



Wouldn't that be an indication of an inefficient teaching methodology if you're spending years just getting to the point where you can use the techniques on a basic level?

Just for a point of comparison, I was implementing Kimuras and Guillotine chokes on resisting opponents about 3 months into Bjj.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I really have yet to find an Aikido school that doesn't prominently advertise self defense.


I agree with that. I think I've seen some that didn't (probably Ki Society affiliates), but it's rare.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ummm yes lol


But didn't you say in a different thread and I quote, you only ever attained a "lower rank"?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Would you not need to be a shodan or higher yourself to know this?




next question lol ....answer yup I am lol well no I'm not lol but yudansha I am


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> People place their kids into boxing and wrestling programs almost exclusively for competitive purposes. People walking into an Aikido dojo are looking for a system of self defense that will protect them. I'm fully aware that there are those who also learn Aikido for spiritual purposes, but we would be lying to ourselves if we believed that the majority of people taking Aikido weren't doing it for martial purposes.



I am sure there is something to what you say above.  But I don't see an answer in there about differing rule sets.  You are describing different reasons for studying one of three martial arts, not how different rules sets might place one at a disadvantage against another.  Or don't you think competition rules of different arts give them advantages over arts that don't learn competition within those rules?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I agree with that. I think I've seen some that didn't (probably Ki Society affiliates), but it's rare.




they do too as aswell as being into the Ki side they are seriously hot on the execution of what they see as perfect techniques


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you don't start to really learn Aikido until black belt?


I think it's more accurate to say that it takes a long time to learn to put aiki principles into practice. So, for a brand new student (no useful background) they will spend years slowly building reactions, timing, and principles until they can put them together usefully. If they aren't learning basic fighting skills, I'd double the time it takes to get to "useful", since they have to use aiki principles where they are not optimal, and that requires more skill development.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> But didn't you say in a different thread and I quote, you only ever attained a "lower rank"?




not in Aikido lol I hold two different ranks in two different organisations ...the lower rank I have was in a completely different art


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> But didn't you say in a different thread and I quote, you only ever attained a "lower rank"?


Most Aikidoka would consider shodan a "lower rank", probably even nidan and maybe sandan.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think it's more accurate to say that it takes a long time to learn to put aiki principles into practice. So, for a brand new student (no useful background) they will spend years slowly building reactions, timing, and principles until they can put them together usefully. If they aren't learning basic fighting skills, I'd double the time it takes to get to "useful", since they have to use aiki principles where they are not optimal, and that requires more skill development.




Yeah ok I was just being pedantic lol ....but yeah it does take as you know longer to get the head around the how's and the why's as some of it is not what a person would automatically do


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Wouldn't that be an indication of an inefficient teaching methodology if you're spending years just getting to the point where you can use the techniques on a basic level?
> 
> Just for a point of comparison, I was implementing Kimuras and Guillotine chokes on resisting opponents about 3 months into Bjj.


In my opinion, it's not so much that the teaching methodology is inefficient, but that they're depending upon aiki principles and techniques to cover everything. It's an inefficient approach to developing fighting skill, but it might still be as efficient an approach as you can get to actually developing that aiki skill.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Most Aikidoka would consider shodan a "lower rank", probably even nidan and maybe sandan.




yup spot on lol ....I don't hold high rank well not in the Aikido world


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 22, 2018)

i havnt been able to read all the responses yet so forgive me if this has been touched upon.
i think what we are seeing is a split between different views on Aikido.  i personally see aikido in a way that was not meant to be effective for self defense.  to me it is very much like other arts, kyodo, shodo or Japanese tea ceremony.  you dont practice it in order to compare it to a triple, venti, half sweet, non fat, caramel macchiato.  which is exactly what people are trying to do by comparing Aikido with MMA.
so there is a growing division between the self defense proponents and the people who dont care about that aspect.  i think eventually we will see the split large enough for the new defense art to have its own name....tactical Aiki  or some such thing.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In my opinion, it's not so much that the teaching methodology is inefficient, but that they're depending upon aiki principles and techniques to cover everything. It's an inefficient approach to developing fighting skill, but it might still be as efficient an approach as you can get to actually developing that aiki skill.




At the start it has to be slow as the kihon do take a bit of time to get used to and how to apply and hence it Kihon and static as it not the first thing most people do went a person say throws a strike deflect and use that energy and return it so to speak it more human nature to try and stop force with force


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i havnt been able to read all the responses yet so forgive me if this has been touched upon.
> i think what we are seeing is a split between different views on Aikido.  i personally see aikido in a way that was not meant to be effective for self defense.  to me it is very much like other arts, kyodo, shodo or Japanese tea ceremony.  you dont practice it in order to compare it to a triple, venti, half sweet, non fat, caramel macchiato.  which is exactly what people are trying to do by comparing Aikido with MMA.
> so there is a growing division between the self defense proponents and the people who dont care about that aspect.  i think eventually we will see the split large enough for the new defense art to have its own name....tactical Aiki  or some such thing.




No I will disagree. It was meant to be all the way just tings affected it and they all been covered before lol


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## FriedRice (Aug 22, 2018)




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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


>




Oh we going to go to the Tenshin now are we 

well before you start on that ...he was the real deal in Aikido ....he ain't now and yes his claims are somewhat suss but in Aikido he does hold the ran he claims all be it he didn't get it exactly when he claimed lol


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you don't start to really learn Aikido until black belt?
> 
> 
> 
> If this is the case, then why do Aikidoka state that Aikido is ineffective against trained fighters?




The other little thing ya gotta remember is Aikido is not only about applying the tech you have to learn how to take the ukemi and do the breakfalls or you will not last long .......you might think that is stupid but it far from it and that does put folks of as many do not like taking but only like giving 

(and befre someone tries to say ukemi and breakfalls are the same well sorry nope you can take ukemi and not need to break fall but just another little bit of nothing lol )


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## FriedRice (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Oh we going to go to the Tenshin now are we
> 
> well before you start on that ...he was the real deal in Aikido ....he ain't now and yes his claims are somewhat suss but in Aikido he does hold the ran he claims all be it he didn't get it exactly when he claimed lol



Hey.....I didn't even say anything


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I am sure there is something to what you say above.  But I don't see an answer in there about differing rule sets.  You are describing different reasons for studying one of three martial arts, not how different rules sets might place one at a disadvantage against another.  Or don't you think competition rules of different arts give them advantages over arts that don't learn competition within those rules?



Boxing's rule set is only limiting if the boxer gets taken down. On its feet, boxers can hang with anyone. Wrestlers rule set is only limiting if they encounter excellent striking, or they're dealing with submission grappling. Both of their rulesets come from competitive sports.

People are finding it difficult to see exactly where Aikido is effective. Since it isn't a competitive sport, it really shouldn't have a rule set that limits what it can do, but it does.


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> The other little thing ya gotta remember is Aikido is not only about applying the tech you have to learn how to take the ukemi and do the breakfalls or you will not last long .......you might think that is stupid but it far from it and that does put folks of as many do not like taking but only like giving
> 
> (and befre someone tries to say ukemi and breakfalls are the same well sorry nope you can take ukemi and not need to break fall but just another little bit of nothing lol )



I don't think that's stupid at all. Such practice exists in Judo and Bjj as well. I think the difference is that there's a point where we can train against fully resisting opponents while Aikidoka cannot and are kind of stuck with non-resistant and even compliant training partners.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I don't think that's stupid at all. Such practice exists in Judo and Bjj as well. I think the difference is that there's a point where we can train against fully resisting opponents while Aikidoka cannot and are kind of stuck with non-resistant and even compliant training partners.




Maybe at the start that is so but not as you get further on ...and resisting can take many different levels to from trying to reverse a tech to preventing the original tech go for thereby having to flow into another to coming at you with intent and even Kai used in the proper fashion can be resisting 

Yes I have no doubt what you have seen was like that but if you had gone full force could you at your level in Aikido taken the breakfall ...not being cheeky or nasty yes you could break fall in bjj or judo and that great but when it comes to the big high falls or face first falls that maybe you could but until you'd reached a certain level no high grade would put you in that position.


You might have read before that I said you can tell most times by the ukes feet if they are flipping for the nage or he is actually throwing them. you may also have heard or read that yes you want to good at applying techs (nage) but you also and this is just as important are a really good uke and by that I mean take the full on breakfalls resist and take good ukemi as that is how the person applying the tech really starts to learn and that does take time to do 


If you see the demos from the big schools the uke are not low level students they will be yondan, godan or even higher depending on who is demonstrating they will be very unlikely to be low ranks and that to can make it look fake as the uke can take the big falls and make it look good doesn't mean it faked (that said in a public demo it is set up for sure so there no ummmm accidents and looking bad ) ....yes in the big dojos where there are deshi then yup that is part and parcel of the training ...for the public classes you are the teachers uke and you better learn fast to take it and give good ukemi as if not you will get your balls chewed (in private and oh so politely )


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Maybe at the start that is so but not as you get further on ...and resisting can take many different levels to from trying to reverse a tech to preventing the original tech go for thereby having to flow into another to coming at you with intent and even Kai used in the proper fashion can be resisting



Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.



the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?

again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you 

And what results are you expecting ?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Given the results we're seeing out of Aikido black belts who have attempted to test their Aikido skills against non-Aikido practicioners, I simply can't buy this assessment. There's certainly "levels" of resistance, and it would appear that Aikido practicioners are practicing very low resistance training. Again, it sounds nice in theory, but the real-world results are simply not panning out.




The classes you attended obviously you are not impressed at and that is fine ...but did you give it the right amount of time as most of what you have said is the same old thing time after time that has been said many times and most often by those who don't get Aikido at all  and that does actually come over fairly clearly 

As you said you've followed that guys channel for a while then why pray tel is one minute he is posting vids of Aikidoka and interacting with Aikidoka then it nope everything Aikido stands for is wrong and because he can't fight then that it it all crap lol..........to me it toys outta the pram really


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## pgsmith (Aug 22, 2018)

My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...

  First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.

  Second, I think the fellow has a strong need to be noticed. He was obviously not good enough to be noticed for his abilities, so he had to come up with another angle to get people to notice him. Seems like that was very successful.

  Third, based on my experiences in Aikido, and in Japanese martial arts in general, I believe that too many people (including most aikidoka) no longer view aikido in the manner in which it was originally meant to be used. The way I see it, aikido was created as a way to teach a particular set of movements and way of moving, to experienced martial artists. I don't see it as being originally intended to be a stand-alone system. That would be like taking my own Japanese sword training and thinking it would allow me to fight barehanded in the UFC. Not what it was meant for, so the results would be "sub-optimal".    A great many people complain that aikido is not good for fighting, but _that's not what it was for_. The fluid movements and ability to blend with your opponent's energy (aiki) that are taught in aikido can be very useful, the same way that many professional athletes will attend ballet and modern dance training to enhance the way they move.

  Just my thoughts on another old argument.


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?



Mainly the internet. The Aikidoka I've encountered in Bjj were never extremely high level, but they all had very negative views on Aikido.



> again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you


]

It's funny that you think I'm the only one who holds this opinion. It's also funny that you think that I need to study Aikido extensively or roll with an Aikido master. Shouldn't the evidence be readily available? I've never studied Muay Thai or fought a pro-level MT master, but I've seen plenty of evidence that MT practitioners are pressure tested and experience high-level resistance training.



> And what results are you expecting ?



Aikidoka being able to hold their own against other martial artists. Again, the general belief that I've seen expressed by Aikidoka is that Aikido is designed to deal with untrained attackers, not trained opponents. Frankly I think that's baloney and rather sad commentary.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...
> 
> First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.

These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.

Of course, no evidence is ever forthcoming, yet the claims continue.

And round and round we go.


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## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...
> 
> First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.
> 
> ...



Now see, this makes more sense than some of the other stuff posted.

With that being the case, perhaps Aikido schools shouldn't advertise themselves as a method of Self-Defense?


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.
> 
> These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.
> 
> ...




yes round we go lol

and what pray tell did the founder 100% agree on with you ...do please enlighten me as In my years I musta missed that bit


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Now see, this makes more sense than some of the other stuff posted.
> 
> With that being the case, perhaps Aikido schools shouldn't advertise themselves as a method of Self-Defense?




They are and I'm gonna say this and if you get offended sorry 

You just do not get that Aikido is not walk in after 6 months you know it all and boom your a fighter 


and how come when I ask you questions etc you do a body swerve and jump on the old band wagon lol


I ain't looking for support in what I say I will stand as I see and have experienced  



I get questioned about my rank but do I ask others about theirs lol....nope 


another question for you that website you posted are you believing them that there are no different styles of Aikido ?


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> the results you are seeing ...and is that based on actual experience or merely the wonderful internet ?
> 
> again that is your summation and you are entitled to it but unless you are saying you have studied the art and faced Aikidoka at full pelt them I will take issue with you
> 
> And what results are you expecting ?


Just a reminder that this thread is about a guy who has studied the art and faced aikidoka.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Boxing's rule set is only limiting if the boxer gets taken down. On its feet, boxers can hang with anyone. Wrestlers rule set is only limiting if they encounter excellent striking, or they're dealing with submission grappling. Both of their rulesets come from competitive sports.
> 
> People are finding it difficult to see exactly where Aikido is effective. Since it isn't a competitive sport, it really shouldn't have a rule set that limits what it can do, but it does.



Shows how little I know.  I thought in boxing, if a boxer went to the floor for any reason, his opponent was not allowed to touch him and would be sent to a neutral corner pending a check of the person on the mat.

I thought striking was not allowed in wrestling.  Are you thinking of scripted commercial wrestling or sport competition wrestling.  I must caution my grandson who has been in middle school wrestling, and is entering high school this year.

I am also surprised to learn that there is a Competitive Sport Ruleset that controls two very different sport/arts.

I think I agree with you on Aikido, at least that it shouldn't have a rule set that limits it.  No non-sport martial art should have imho, other than not to damage a practice opponent.  You quickly run out of practice opponents that way.


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## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.
> 
> These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.
> 
> ...




The Aikido guy has always said there are no vids showing some Aikidoka pummeling some one why should there be ?

and Yo quoted previous threads at me and when and I asked about your friend who you let throw you about as you have to co-operate for that to happen lol and you stated he a newly promoted shodan and I said ok not prob the best to ask then ...where did you take it then /////oh he being doing it for 10 years maybe after 20 it will work ...............................well ummm why can you not accept that at shodan he will not know enough and depnding on his style what he does actually know.


Is it so hard to grasp that Aikido is not your go study for 6 months and then bang your a fighter  and what part of the concepts are you not getting lol


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> Just a reminder that this thread is about a guy who has studied the art and faced aikidoka.




???????? I actually do know his rank as I went and asked folks I know ok


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> They are and I'm gonna say this and if you get offended sorry
> 
> You just do not get that Aikido is not walk in after 6 months you know it all and boom your a fighter
> 
> ...


I think offended is the wrong word.  Speaking for myself, I view it as more of a disservice.  It doesn't offend me, in the same way I look at a product being advertised on an infomercial.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> ???????? I actually do know his rank as I went and asked folks I know ok


Your position on aikido is very similar to how Scientology works.  Usefulness is always one or two steps above where you are.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Aikido is designed to deal with untrained attackers, not trained opponents. Frankly I think that's baloney and rather sad commentary.




Who said that and where ?


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Who said that and where ?


I think you said it in this thread but I will admit I just read through 5 pages of back and forth and ciuld be mistaken . I think it was brought up around page 3.  It wad the exceptional aikido to face a competetwnt BJJ, wrestler, or boxer exchange.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> Scientology




where the heck you getting that from lol?


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> where the heck you getting that from lol?


They have a similar business model .  give us x dollars, and y amount of time and you will reach stage two.  You won't actually learn anything useful at that point but stick with it.  After stage 2 is 3, stage 4, then 5, and so on.   Money, time, all get frittered away and you never actually get to the point where you can actually do anything . 

Practical aikido seems to be like the jackelope.   Its something everyone claims to have seen but no one can prove .


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> I think you said it in this thread but I will admit I just read through 5 pages of back and forth and ciuld be mistaken . I think it was brought up around page 3.  It wad the exceptional aikido to face a competetwnt BJJ, wrestler, or boxer exchange.



I said the tools are there to deal with that .... I said facing a fully trained pro may pose probs but not everyone is a fully trained pro 


that a bit diff is it not ?


Or are you saying that absoutely everyone is a trained pro boxer ?


or are you referring to where I said I know guys here who have never trained and if they hit a trained boxer they would go down


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> They have a similar business model .  give us x dollars, and y amount of time and you will reach stage two.  You won't actually learn anything useful at that point but stick with it.  After stage 2 is 3, stage 4, then 5, and so on.   Money, time, all get frittered away and you never actually get to the point where you can actually do anything .
> 
> Practical aikido seems to be like the jackelope.   Its something everyone claims to have seen but no one can prove .




In your opinion and some others but hey ok what I been doing for 30 plus years was all just a waste of time lol .......time to chuck my toys out the pram and run off to MMA lol ..................... I think not lol but thanks for your wisdom and insight


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> In your opinion and some others but hey ok what I been doing for 30 plus years was all just a waste of time lol .......time to chuck my toys out the pram and run off to MMA lol ..................... I think not lol but thanks for your wisdom and insight


Maybe not a waste of time . I'm not putting any kind of value judgement on it like that.  You are.  There are lots of great reasons to train.  But with your 30 years, are you confident you could defend yourself against someone with 10 years of wrestling, boxing, judo, sambo, muay Thai, or mma?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> Maybe not a waste of time . I'm not putting any kind of value judgement on it like that.  You are.  There are lots of great reasons to train.  But with your 30 years, are you confident you could defend yourself against someone with 10 years of wrestling, boxing, judo, sambo, muay Thai, or mma?[/QUOT
> 
> If I was fit yes why wouldI not if the occasion arose ...but in a comp ring no but on the street yup and bro I have faced people that have wanted to kill me more than once and not just with guns


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> Maybe not a waste of time . I'm not putting any kind of value judgement on it like that.  You are.  There are lots of great reasons to train.  But with your 30 years, are you confident you could defend yourself against someone with 10 years of wrestling, boxing, judo, sambo, muay Thai, or mma?




And that ws in a little place out of the way called NI and if you say that wasn't real then oh dear that will kinda make me laugh lol


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

Okay.  I'll just say that I think Aikido is pretty cool.  I just don't think it teaches people to do things very well.   

First, I believe it's pretty well established that Aikidoka cannot fight.  This is systemic.  We see the evidence whenever we see an Aikidoka fighting someone.  We hear the analysis whenever Aikidoka reflect on their experiences fighting someone.  We hear from active Aikidoka that fighting is anathema to the art.  Simply put, Aikidoka do not train to fight.  And that's fine.  Nothing wrong with this... until an Aikidoka insists that it is self defense or that you CAN fight with Aikido.  Then we have to go round and round arguing the points above, until someone throws the Aikidoka a life line by saying something along the lines of, "it only works if you already know how to fight."  It's like the BASF commercials.  The motto for Aikido should be, "We don't teach you to fight.  We teach you to fight better."

Contrast this with all of the other arts mentioned in this thread.  Take BJJ, I am confident that anyone else who has trained BJJ will agree.  An average, out of shape, unremarkable person can learn to apply BJJ against people who don't want them to in 6 months to 1 year.  The learning curve is very predictable, and the results can be virtually guaranteed.  If you train 3 to 4 times per week for 90 minutes in a typical (not exceptional) BJJ school, you will be able to perform.  Your results will be even better if you compete.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

FriedRice said:


>


That may be the most salient comment on this page of the thread.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> And that ws in a little place out of the way called NI and if you say that wasn't real then oh dear that will kinda make me laugh lol


You're speaking in code now.  I don't know what you mean. 

For what it's worth, I faced some people that seemed like they wanted to kill me, and I survived even before I had any martial arts training at all.  Sometimes, good self defense has nothing to do with martial skill.  So, I mean, if we're telling war stories, I could tell you a few.  I don't think they have a lot to do with whether a martial art teaches practical skills or not, but they are fun stories to tell.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> My opinion is that there are a few different things at work in this situation ...
> 
> First is the fact that the fellow in question, based on his movements, should not have had his own dojo and been teaching aikido. He just didn't seem to have enough basic understanding and ability for that.
> 
> ...


That's what I've been trying to say - and haven't done as concise a job (hey, I gotta keep my post count up _somehow_). When people try to use what's in Aikido as I commonly see it (just the aiki-focused material, none of the support techniques), they're trying to make it fit more circumstances than it's meant for - like trying to use your sword movement to fill empty-hand needs, too. If you're good enough, it might even work, but it's going to require a much higher level of skill than simply having the right tools for those situations and adding the Aikido on top.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> The Aikido guy has always said there are no vids showing some Aikidoka pummeling some one why should there be ?
> 
> and Yo quoted previous threads at me and when and I asked about your friend who you let throw you about as you have to co-operate for that to happen lol and you stated he a newly promoted shodan and I said ok not prob the best to ask then ...where did you take it then /////oh he being doing it for 10 years maybe after 20 it will work ...............................well ummm why can you not accept that at shodan he will not know enough and depnding on his style what he does actually know.
> 
> ...


What is hard to grasp is the idea that out of millions of aikidoka, not one of them has decided to compete or been able to show in any form they can win fights with aikido.

There are two possible conclusions that can be made -

1) aikido isn't very effective for fighting

2) it's like you say and aikido is good for fighting, but there is an international multilevel conspiracy to make it appear otherwise.

Sure not everyone is interested in demonstrating their skills, but there will always be some that will, and those people would be very invested in leaving some evidence of that. In fact there are countless examples of aikidoka doing just that, but they never beat anybody.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Aikidoka being able to hold their own against other martial artists. Again, the general belief that I've seen expressed by Aikidoka is that Aikido is designed to deal with untrained attackers, not trained opponents. Frankly I think that's baloney and rather sad commentary.


If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> You're speaking in code now.  I don't know what you mean.
> 
> For what it's worth, I faced some people that seemed like they wanted to kill me, and I survived even before I had any martial arts training at all.  Sometimes, good self defense has nothing to do with martial skill.  So, I mean, if we're telling war stories, I could tell you a few.  I don't think they have a lot to do with whether a martial art teaches practical skills or not, but they are fun stories to tell.





I ain't telling war stories lol just pointing out that I did use what I knew in real life 

And I am def not getting into the who has the most gongs and who been in the biggest hell holes sorry that I am not doing 


Ok how about I turn it back and say ok you go find a vid of a well respected shihan (not one in his 80's  although that if you want go for it lol) watch it and do a full crit of what you think is fake and what you see is all wrong then I will come back with my take ok ???


And getting back to the original OP and the guy in the vid ...he was offering a deshi prog and ummm well how was he going to grade them and he definitely could not rank them and you said he has faced Aikidoka ....ok who ? 

I am not going to shoot the guys Aikido down in public but he is no fighter and as I said he had lost that fight before the bell went ding ...He beat himself and really if that guy had yelled at himI think he might have had an accident as he looked petrified facing him


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What is hard to grasp is the idea that out of millions of aikidoka, not one of them has decided to compete or been able to show in any form they can win fights with aikido.
> 
> There are two possible conclusions that can be made -
> 
> ...




go find a vid then of a respected Aikidoka do a full crit of what YOU see is wrong and doesn't work ok then post it and I'l be more than happy to come back to you ok???


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

. 


now disabled said:


> They are and I'm gonna say this and if you get offended sorry
> 
> You just do not get that Aikido is not walk in after 6 months you know it all and boom your a fighter
> 
> ...


No art or system is a 6-month fix, ND. Aikido is a slower path because the core aiki skills simply take a lot of time to learn, and as commonly taught (and probably as intended) works best as a sort of "finishing school" for skilled fighters.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.




And there prob will never be as well Aikidoka tend not to want to compete and then there the big chestnut of ..............where do you do that kind of thing as so much rivalry out there etc


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> .
> 
> No art or system is a 6-month fix, ND. Aikido is a slower path because the core aiki skills simply take a lot of time to learn, and as commonly taught (and probably as intended) works best as a sort of "finishing school" for skilled fighters.




Bro I know that I was saying that in response to why Aikido is long term not short term 


and that book I scanned a copy if I can get it in an email do you want it?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> I think you said it in this thread but I will admit I just read through 5 pages of back and forth and ciuld be mistaken . I think it was brought up around page 3.  It wad the exceptional aikido to face a competetwnt BJJ, wrestler, or boxer exchange.


If it was that exchange, it was me, though that's a misinterpretation of my point.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> go find a vid then of a respected Aikidoka do a full crit of what YOU see is wrong and doesn't work ok then post it and I'l be more than happy to come back to you ok???


Are there any people you consider respected aikidoka that actually fight against resisting opponents? All I can ever find are videos of cooperative drills involving completely unrealistic attacks, and students throwing themselves around, sometimes without even being touched(as was the case in a video of a respected master of aikido you posted in the other aikido thread.)

If I could find even one single vid of ANYONE successfully doing aikido techniques in a fight,(master or no master) just one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Are there any people you consider respected aikidoka that actually fight against resisting opponents? All I can ever find are videos of cooperative drills involving completely unrealistic attacks, and students throwing themselves around, sometimes without even being touched(as was the case in a video of a respected master of aikido you posted in the other aikido thread.
> 
> If I could find even one single vid of ANYONE successfully doing aikido techniques in a fight,(master or no master) just one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.




Yes I remember what you called him 

you go find ok you go look then do as I suggested and we will talk


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If it was that exchange, it was me, though that's a misinterpretation of my point.




I'll take the heat bro it cool lol


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.


This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Are there any people you consider respected aikidoka that actually fight against resisting opponents? All I can ever find are videos of cooperative drills involving completely unrealistic attacks, and students throwing themselves around, sometimes without even being touched(as was the case in a video of a respected master of aikido you posted in the other aikido thread.)
> 
> If I could find even one single vid of ANYONE successfully doing aikido techniques in a fight,(master or no master) just one, we wouldn't be having this discussion.




You might even find one or two where an Aikidoka is in a demo with say TKD or Karate or just another Aikidoka .....you are the one that is always saying this or that is fake etc etc so if you find a decent one that is not a teaching seminar then do a crit on it and then I will see if you are getting what they are doing or trying to or not....not being nasty or having a go .....and don't pick any of the ones that are cage fights as I doubt the person claimed to be an Aikidoka actually is just look for plain and simple ok


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I'll take the heat bro it cool lol


I don't feel like I've applied any heat so far.  My intent is to make my points without any heat at all.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.




possibly but then again could it be how some are viewing what is said ?  ie they have bigger expectations than can be filled in what they see as a time scale ?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Shows how little I know.  I thought in boxing, if a boxer went to the floor for any reason, his opponent was not allowed to touch him and would be sent to a neutral corner pending a check of the person on the mat.
> 
> I thought striking was not allowed in wrestling.  Are you thinking of scripted commercial wrestling or sport competition wrestling.  I must caution my grandson who has been in middle school wrestling, and is entering high school this year.
> 
> I am also surprised to learn that there is a Competitive Sport Ruleset that controls two very different sport/arts.



You're not quite understanding my point. My point was that despite their limited rule-sets, boxing and wrestling has some very practical applications that have been applied in a vacuum, and throughout martial arts. For example, Bjj and MMA incorporate wrestling takedowns. Some forms of modern karate  have implemented boxing.

Additionally boxers and wrestlers are generally respected as very tough fighters, and plenty of professionals consider either system to be a good base if you wish to be a professional fighter.

The same simply cant be said about Aikido.



> I think I agree with you on Aikido, at least that it shouldn't have a rule set that limits it.  No non-sport martial art should have imho, other than not to damage a practice opponent.  You quickly run out of practice opponents that way.



What is interesting is that in Gracie JJ the competitive side (sport BJJ and MMA) is what has forced the evolution of the system.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You might even find one or two where an Aikidoka is in a demo with say TKD or Karate or just another Aikidoka .....you are the one that is always saying this or that is fake etc etc so if you find a decent one that is not a teaching seminar then do a crit on it and then I will see if you are getting what they are doing or trying to or not....not being nasty or having a go .....and don't pick any of the ones that are cage fights as I doubt the person claimed to be an Aikidoka actually is just look for plain and simple ok


I've never said anything is fake. All I've ever done is ask you to support your continued claims, which you have consistently refused to do.

Telling me that the only way to know is to spend 30 years doing aikido doesn't really work, because that begs the question of where all these effective fighters with that 30 years are hiding. I don't need to understand aikido to see someone else use it successfully.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> possibly but then again could it be how some are viewing what is said ?  ie they have bigger expectations than can be filled in what they see as a time scale ?


To be honest, if I'm looking at a scale and "application if skill in context" is one side, I think that side is empty if the context is self defense.

Said more directly, it's clear that people who train aikido get better at aikido.   You can even see clearly that folks who train long enough get really good at it.  I don't see how one could suggest that any of this relates to fighting or self defense.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I've never said anything is fake. All I've ever done is ask you to support your continued claims, which you have consistently refused to do.
> 
> Telling me that the only way to know is to spend 30 years doing aikido doesn't really work, because that begs the question of where all these effective fighters with that 30 years are hiding. I don't need to understand aikido to see someone else use it successfully.





Ah there again we will differ as if you don't understand then you will not get the principles and concepts and as you keep saying I refuse then take the initiative and prove your points with a full crit and breakdown 

also i still waiting or you to tell me where Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100%


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ah there again we will differ as if you don't understand then you will not get the principles and concepts and as you keep saying I refuse then take the initiative and prove your points with a full crit and breakdown
> 
> also i still waiting or you to tell me where Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100%


Why do you keep dodging questions? Do you know what a red herring fallacy is?

Again, it doesn't matter who agrees with me, or how much aikido I understand or don't understand.

Do you need to be a master carpenter to watch one build a cabinet?

Do I need to be a bjj black belt to watch someone get submitted?

Do I need to be a champion boxer to watch a title fight?

If you answered no to these questions, why should I need to understand aikido to see THAT work?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> To be honest, if I'm looking at a scale and "application if skill in context" is one side, I think that side is empty if the context is self defense.
> 
> Said more directly, it's clear that people who train aikido get better at aikido.   You can even see clearly that folks who train long enough get really good at it.  I don't see how one could suggest that any of this relates to fighting or self defense.




again and not being nasty it the principles and concepts that are alluding folks 

bro you use aiki everyday in life you may not see it that way but you do ....but that is not the whole picture of Aikido and that is what takes the time ......no one i don't think has ever claimed Aikido would turn out fighters ....mind you back at the start there were a few judoka that were sent to ueshiba to train and they did compete one fairly successfully now there must have been a reason why they went to ueshiba and kano sent some ?! was that just out of fun or was there something else?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Why do you keep dodging questions? Do you know what a red herring fallacy is?
> 
> Again, it doesn't matter who agrees with me, or how much aikido I understand or don't understand.
> 
> ...




I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps 

and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If what PGSmith and I have said is true (Aikido is meant to make a martial artist better), then the more realistic expectation would be that a skilled martial artist who added Aikido would be better than one who didn't. There aren't enough of those to get anything like a reasonable conclusion, I think.



Perhaps more on the mental side and far less on the martial side. Again, similar to Tai Chi or Yoga which improve your art beyond merely the physical?

Despite my personal respect for Roy Dean, I haven't really seen much in his attempt to merge Aikido with Bjj. It certainly hasn't pushed Bjj the way Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, and MMA have. I find that really surprising and a little disappointing, since wrist locks are legal in some levels of competitive Bjj, and you would think that cross-training in Aikido would give you some mean wrist locks.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps
> 
> and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take


I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.

As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).

As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I am not dodging I am saying you do a full crit and then present it and then I will see how much your getting at what your not getting then maybe fill in the gaps
> 
> and you still have not answered the question you said Ueshiba Morihei agreed with you 100% I asked where as I again would like to see what you are interpreting as agreement and if in fact that is the case or if it just your take



There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.

I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido. Literally throwing people around the room without touching them.
> 
> I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.


Ya, those videos of an old master throwing around a room full of students doesn't do the art any favours. Those guys need to consult with pro wrestling to learn how to sell.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.
> 
> As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).
> 
> As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.




no your are saying combat effectiveness not me lol 

I am saying go find something that you thing is all wrong by a respected shihan and break it down and then present


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ya, those videos of an old master throwing around a room full of students doesn't do the art any favours. Those guys need to consult with pro wrestling to learn how to sell.



you missed the point there but I ain't going back to that as you actually slagged of my teachers teacher so that is not happening again


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> no your are saying combat effectiveness not me lol
> 
> I am saying go find something that you thing is all wrong by a respected shihan and break it down and then present


I feel as though I am talking to a wall.

You've made that claim many times. Two examples from this thread are that you claimed aikido has tools to deal with wrestlers, and that classical aikido works for a fight but only if you use small circles rather than large. You also claimed to have used it in fighting 'many times'.

Let's try to keep things honest here ok? Calling me out on things I didn't say and denying you said things you did say is very dishonest.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.
> 
> I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.




Yes he was an enforcer lol 


The no toch well that not entirely true but if you want I can try and explain that if not I can point you a place that snippets will make that clearer


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I feel as though I am talking to a wall.
> 
> You've made that claim many times. Two examples from this thread are that you claimed aikido has tools to deal with wrestlers, and that classical aikido works for a fight but only if you use small circles rather than large. You also claimed to have used it in fighting 'many times'.
> 
> Let's try to keep things honest here ok? Calling me out on things I didn't say and denying you said things you did say is very dishonest.




what have I denied ?  and i will look back and find the quote ok 

and saying you slagged off my teachers teacher is fact


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> what have I denied ?  and i will look back and find the quote ok
> 
> and saying you slagged off my teachers teacher is fact


You literally JUST said in your last post you weren't talking about combat effectiveness, when there are numerous examples of you doing exactly that in this very thread, which I explicitly pointed out.

And that slagging off thing is also a lie. Quote me.

What I did say is the video of him you presented contained people falling over without being touched, which it did. That you consider this to be 'slagging him off' is amusing, but not too accurate.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yes he was an enforcer lol
> 
> 
> The no toch well that not entirely true but if you want I can try and explain that if not I can point you a place that snippets will make that clearer



Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:







It's pure nonsense, and the fact that some believe its real isn't good.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> You literally JUST said in your last post you weren't talking about combat effectiveness, when there are numerous examples of you doing exactly that in this very thread, which I explicitly pointed out.
> 
> And that slagging off thing is also a lie. Quote me.
> 
> What I did say is the video of him you presented contained people falling over without being touched, which it did. That you consider this to be 'slagging him off' is amusing, but not too accurate.




Look lol as far as when I used it I did period ...sorry I had no vid camera in west Belfast to record me taking knives and bottles etc of some of the boyos ok 

and calling him a funny old man well and the rest well sorry that shows no respect at all and that is your choice 

I have given you the option to present a case and you decline there by why waste more energy ?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You said Ueshiba then you post a vid of someone else ......yup go figure that one out 


and still awaiting you to answer the questions I asked you?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You said Ueshiba then you post a vid of someone else ......yup go figure that one out











> and still awaiting you to answer the questions I asked you?



What questions?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, it is entirely true. He is throwing and manipulating people without touching them. The practice continues in the modern day:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If you want to slate Ueshiba then go ahead state your case do the full break down and I will return the favour 


and that vid will be the Ki boys I would think and if they wanna do that then so what as I asked as you posted that website and said they were or alluded to they were right at there being no different styles of Aikido .............welll hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhave ou not just disproved yourself there or must I only agree and roll over ? As you have seen vids and well you say nonsense ....in point of fact I have no time or the Ki brigade and if you actually looked at where that came from you well may find out that neither do the Akikai or any of the main Aikido orgs ...yes there is Ki but well that I will leave there as again that will create even more lol


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> and calling him a funny old man well and the rest well sorry that shows no respect at all and that is your choice


Ok look, I don't know if your memory is terrible or if you are just lying, but this is the third time you have accused me of saying things I didn't say. In the future, go back and get a quote(which you won't find as I didn't actually say any of this)

You do realize people can just read the thread and see that it isn't true right? I guess if you don't mind being the guy known for making up lies to try to win arguments, carry on.


> I have given you the option to present a case and you decline there by why waste more energy ?



Again, what case can be made without any evidence to judge?  I am not the one making the claim, you are. I've never said aikido doesn't work, only that I've never seen it work, or heard of it working, and that there doesn't seem to be any evidence of it working.

It isn't like I can judge what would work and what wouldn't from those phoney balogna choreographed sessions where rooms full of people charge at the one master guy in a way that literally nobody would ever do, and sometimes fall over before there is any contact made.

Do you not understand the difference between staged choreography and actual fighting?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> What questions?




that is not no touch my friend lol 


go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.


In their defense, I don't think most folks in Aikido see it that way. They know what they are teaching takes longer than some other solutions to self-defense, but they accept that. I'm not sure how many of them have the information/experience outside the Aikido community needed to recognize what's actually missing. And it takes a broad mind (like Stan Pranin had) to be a proponent of Aikido and also recognize these gaps.

For what it's worth, I think Aikido is a perfect solution for what a lot of folks really want from it: the challenge of learning skills, the feeling of "smooth" from working aiki movement, and a sense of community. It excels at those things. Eventually, it also provides some defensive ability, but it does not excel at that.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I agree 100%, and in fact the founder of aikido is on record expressing the same sentiment about their art.
> 
> These discussions only ever begin when an aikido guy starts talking about how effective aikido can be for actual fighting, and are asked to provide evidence.
> 
> ...


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> If you want to slate Ueshiba then go ahead state your case do the full break down and I will return the favour
> 
> 
> and that vid will be the Ki boys I would think and if they wanna do that then so what as I asked as you posted that website and said they were or alluded to they were right at there being no different styles of Aikido .............welll hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmhave ou not just disproved yourself there or must I only agree and roll over ? As you have seen vids and well you say nonsense ....in point of fact I have no time or the Ki brigade and if you actually looked at where that came from you well may find out that neither do the Akikai or any of the main Aikido orgs ...yes there is Ki but well that I will leave there as again that will create even more lol



Uh, the guy in the gif is Nobuyuki Watanabe, 8th dan with the Aikikai. He's even listed as one of their instructors;

Instructors | Aikikai Foundation


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> that is not no touch my friend lol
> 
> 
> go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol



He's pushing his hand downward and the other person is moving downward. There is no physical contact whatsoever. In another part of the vid he raises his arms in the air and people just fall over.

That is the very definition of no-touch.

But by all means, I'm interested in your interpretation.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Perhaps more on the mental side and far less on the martial side. Again, similar to Tai Chi or Yoga which improve your art beyond merely the physical?
> 
> Despite my personal respect for Roy Dean, I haven't really seen much in his attempt to merge Aikido with Bjj. It certainly hasn't pushed Bjj the way Sambo, Judo, Wrestling, Catch Wrestling, and MMA have. I find that really surprising and a little disappointing, since wrist locks are legal in some levels of competitive Bjj, and you would think that cross-training in Aikido would give you some mean wrist locks.


The real focus of Aikido is learning to execute "with aiki", so to speak. If you learn to do that, most of the techniques you already have gain a level of nuance. It adds some evasion and new entry points for some techniques, and new ways to disrupt the opponent.

I wouldn't expect aiki to have much impact on BJJ, for two reasons. Firstly, most of the movement involved in aiki is not available in mount, side mount, or any of the guard positions. In transitions, there might be some opportunities. I'd more expect to see it bring BJJ some standing movement, because I think aiki movement could merge well with BJJ. The wrist locks in Aikido aren't anything special - similar locks exist in other arts. It's how they get to those locks that's different. You might see some interesting arm transitions, but it's my experience that good BJJ folks have some pretty smooth transitions that come pretty close to being aiki, so it'd be a marginal difference. Judo's standing work would probably be influenced more by Aikido in an attempted blending of arts.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Uh, the guy in the gif is Nobuyuki Watanabe, 8th dan with the Aikikai. He's even listed as one of their instructors;
> 
> Instructors | Aikikai Foundation




you sure he is still teaching at the Hombu / as just cause he listed does nt mean he is active there ....tada is listed but when he teaches his own brand he does so outside the Hombu


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I have no idea what you are talking about with the agree 100% thing. I'm pretty sure I didn't say that. You'll have to quote me.
> 
> As for the ful crit thing, I have no idea what that is supposed to even mean. If you mean critique, I would need to see someone actually use it in a fight(as the context here is combat effectiveness).
> 
> As I have never seen aikido stuff pulled off in a fight or sparring(or even in a tomiki tournement), I have nothing to critique, so I'm not sure why you are asking me that.


Actually, what you see in a Tomiki tournament is "aikido stuff". If you're expecting it to look like the classical "dojo Aikido", that's going to be much more rare.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> He's pushing his hand downward and the other person is moving downward. There is no physical contact whatsoever. In another part of the vid he raises his arms in the air and people just fall over.
> 
> That is the very definition of no-touch.
> 
> But by all means, I'm interested in your interpretation.



bro Ueshiba is putting people where he wants them as as @gpseymour said before I could that is the nuance lol and that is how it done it not hocous pocus lol


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

You should read slower. That plainly doesn't say anything about aikido guy "agreeing with me 100%" as you claimed. It says I agree 100% with the poster I was quoting, and it is in reference to aikido being a supplimentary art to those that already know martial arts. Are you denying that his original students were not already martial artists? 

I did find this quote from him however.


"Aikido is not a way to fight with or defeat enemies; it is a way to reconcile the world and make all human beings one family."


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> There's actual clips of Ueshiba doing no-touch Aikido; Literally throwing people around the room without touching them. It's complete BS of course, but that is what the founder of Aikido was doing and its all on tape.
> 
> I think its fair to say that towards the end, Ueshiba was far more into the spiritual aspect of Aikido than the fighting aspects. Supposedly the man was a killer in his younger days.


Some of that, I've been told, was him demonstrating how "lead" works. The uke was instructed to follow, so people could see the structural changes that come from him being led in a certain way (hand positions affect body, etc.). I don't know how much of those videos that accounts for, but I've seen similar demonstrations done in other arts, where it was clear to all observing that uke was purposely participating so they could see something specific.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> that is not no touch my friend lol
> 
> 
> go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol


He is putting them where he wants them...without touching them.

Bro your beliefs run deeeeeep.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok look, I don't know if your memory is terrible or if you are just lying, but this is the third time you have accused me of saying things I didn't say. In the future, go back and get a quote(which you won't find as I didn't actually say any of this)
> 
> You do realize people can just read the thread and see that it isn't true right? I guess if you don't mind being the guy known for making up lies to try to win arguments, carry on.
> 
> ...





You asked where you said it I reposted it 


why are you so intent on being aggressive lol 

now your saying I am a liar and every one will read and see that ...ok if that is what folks think then so be it 

so what was your post about the 100% agree and thefounder said that about their art ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> What questions?


Well, that one clearly doesn't fall into the category I mentioned before. 

Yep, that's some kind of hokum.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some of that, I've been told, was him demonstrating how "lead" works. The uke was instructed to follow, so people could see the structural changes that come from him being led in a certain way (hand positions affect body, etc.). I don't know how much of those videos that accounts for, but I've seen similar demonstrations done in other arts, where it was clear to all observing that uke was purposely participating so they could see something specific.




you stop stealing my thunder lol


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, what you see in a Tomiki tournament is "aikido stuff". If you're expecting it to look like the classical "dojo Aikido", that's going to be much more rare.



In the sense that aikido guys are doing it I guess. If you take out the aki and flow and throws, what's left?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> that is not no touch my friend lol
> 
> 
> go do a full break down of what you are saying break all down what you think he is doing and then present it and I will come back at you ok ...that way you are taking the initiative I am merely nage lol


He doesn't touch them in several of those. That's no-touch. Do you have an explanation for that kind of thing?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> bro Ueshiba is putting people where he wants them as as @gpseymour said before I could that is the nuance lol and that is how it done it not hocous pocus lol



So you actually believe that Ueshiba could manipulate someone's body without touching them?

Seriously?


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You asked where you said it I reposted it
> 
> 
> why are you so intent on being aggressive lol
> ...



I'm not being aggressive. You clearly accused me of saying things I didn't say on three instances I already explicitly pointed out. Why do I feel like you will forget or deny doing it by your next post....


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> He is putting them where he wants them...without touching them.
> 
> Bro your beliefs run deeeeeep.




Look before you accusse me of any more just leave it as if you start with what you did the last time and saying my disability was in attention span  and now I am a liar and I am denying combat use ...I am so sorry that I didn't have a vid camera with me in the middle of west Belfast ok to show you ....unlike you sir that was not exactly top of my list at the time like before when I told the forum how I got my disabilities and that sent you very quiet so pleas just don't as this tim you pull that again I will not hold back ok and I care not if it gets me banned


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Some of that, I've been told, was him demonstrating how "lead" works. The uke was instructed to follow, so people could see the structural changes that come from him being led in a certain way (hand positions affect body, etc.). I don't know how much of those videos that accounts for, but I've seen similar demonstrations done in other arts, where it was clear to all observing that uke was purposely participating so they could see something specific.



Well that's certainly better than some of the other explanations I have heard regarding Ueshiba and others. Unfortunately a lot of Aikidoka get a bit weird and start talking about "auras" and being able to extend ki. 

I think that's the point where we've hit an iceberg.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So you actually believe that Ueshiba could manipulate someone's body without touching them?
> 
> Seriously?




Not just me bro ...and it how and where he leads them look at the irimi nage that might give a clearer pic


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Look before you accusse me of any more just leave it as if you start with what you did the last time and saying my disability was in attention span  and now I am a liar and I am denying combat use ...I am so sorry that I didn't have a vid camera with me in the middle of west Belfast ok to show you ....unlike you sir that was not exactly top of my list at the time like before when I told the forum how I got my disabilities and that sent you very quiet so pleas just don't as this tim you pull that again I will not hold back ok and I care not if it gets me banned


Nice rant, Ranty McRanterson.  Please try to stay on topic.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's certainly better than some of the other explanations I have heard regarding Ueshiba and others. Unfortunately a lot of Aikidoka get a bit weird and start talking about "auras" and being able to extend ki.
> 
> I think that's the point where we've hit an iceberg.




Ki is viewed differently by many and Ueshiba did have an aura but not a hocus pocus one lol


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Not just me bro ...and it how and where he leads them look at the irimi nage that might give a clearer pic



Okay..... So you're saying that you DO believe that Ueshbia could throw people around without touching them.

So why has this incredible ability never been performed in a live fight? I mean, the ability to throw someone to the ground without touching them would revolutionize martial arts (and the laws of physics).


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Nice rant, Ranty McRanterson.  Please try to stay on topic.[/QU
> 
> reported and if te got banned for a word she used then well all the nice things you called me need looked at
> 
> ...


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

Can we all just take a breath?  This doesn't have to get personal.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Ki is viewed differently by many and Ueshiba did have an aura but not a hocus pocus one lol


LOL

I think we are all seeing where you are coming from now.

What are your thoughts on George Dilman and yellow bamboo?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> In the sense that aikido guys are doing it I guess. If you take out the aki and flow and throws, what's left?


You get the base of the art, often without the "aiki". I've said before that functional use of Aikido has to include non-aiki application of the same techniques (including strikes). When someone knows what you're going to use, and works to nullify it, it changes what you use unless you outclass them sufficiently. There's use of aiki in Tomiki tournaments, but it's in the minority, which I think is a realistic expectation.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You get the base of the art, often without the "aiki". I've said before that functional use of Aikido has to include non-aiki application of the same techniques (including strikes). When someone knows what you're going to use, and works to nullify it, it changes what you use unless you outclass them sufficiently. There's use of aiki in Tomiki tournaments, but it's in the minority, which I think is a realistic expectation.


I generally respect what you have to say, and respect the hell out of you as a martial artist'.
With that said...

Evidence?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Well that's certainly better than some of the other explanations I have heard regarding Ueshiba and others. Unfortunately a lot of Aikidoka get a bit weird and start talking about "auras" and being able to extend ki.
> 
> I think that's the point where we've hit an iceberg.


Some styles are more likely to draw in certain kinds of people. You won't get much "aura" talk if there's resistive training early in the process. I think one of the problems facing Aikido is that students aren't given a real chance to fail often enough early in their training. And they don't get to see their instructors fail.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

I'm out guys until the mods look into things 

I ain't being called a liar and the rest I took enough of that in another thread and even had my disability called into question so the mods can sort this out now


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I generally respect what you have to say, and respect the hell out of you as a martial artist'.
> With that said...
> 
> Evidence?


Evidence of which part of my statement?


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Nice rant, Ranty McRanterson. Please try to stay on topic.[/QU
> 
> reported and if te got banned for a word she used then well all the nice things you called me need looked at
> 
> ...



No need to have a breakdown. I have been on point and on topic for every single post in this thread. I clearly pointed out that you misread my post regarding the 100% agreeing with the poster I quoted(not that a dead man 100% agreed with me like you claimed, and doesn't even make sense.)

At least read the posts directed at you before you reply to them, it isn't a lot to ask.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> No need to have a breakdown. I have been on point and on topic for every single post in this thread. I clearly pointed out that you misread my post regarding the 100% agreeing with the poster I quoted(not that a dead man 100% agreed with me like you claimed, and doesn't even make sense.)
> 
> At least read the posts directed at you before you reply to them, it isn't a lot to ask.




let the mods sort this out as respect you have none 

and then we will see what and how you get around calling me a liar and having a go at my disability


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Evidence of which part of my statement?


"I've said before that *functional use of Aikido* has to include non-aiki application of the same techniques (including strikes). When someone knows what you're going to use, and works to nullify it, it changes what you use unless you outclass them sufficiently."

Where might I find this functional use to examine?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)




----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> No need to have a breakdown. I have been on point and on topic for every single post in this thread. I clearly pointed out that you misread my post regarding the 100% agreeing with the poster I quoted(not that a dead man 100% agreed with me like you claimed, and doesn't even make sense.)
> 
> At least read the posts directed at you before you reply to them, it isn't a lot to ask.




Have you no respect at all again why bring dead into it again you already had a go at one dead master now another are you for real? 

on topic yes you are blameless 

typical no it all get called and then plays victim and innocent


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


>




not your fault but I will not take more of a person that has to insult then name call the run and play victim go read what he said regarding my disability


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> let the mods sort this out as respect you have none
> 
> and then we will see what and how you get around calling me a liar and having a go at my disability


I explicitly pointed out, verbatim, the three things you accused me of saying in this thread that I didn't say. In the English language the word for that is "lying". I'm sorry if you don't like that word. Would you prefer if I called it purposeful dishonesty?

And yes, I did ask you once if your disability involved your reading comprehension, which is still something that seems to be true based on how you have and continue to conduct yourself here. You have continually shown that you can't seem to understand what is written to you, which makes these diologues frustrating at best.

With that said, as you have admitted that you believe in no touch techniques, in addition to completely blowing a gasket, this conversation can not possibly continue in a serious direction. I think we are done for today lol.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I explicitly pointed out, verbatim, the three things you accused me of saying in this thread that I didn't say. In the English language the word for that is "lying". I'm sorry if you don't like that word. Would you prefer if I called it purposeful dishonesty?
> 
> And yes, I did ask you once if your disability involved your reading comprehension, which is still something that seems to be true based on how you have and continue to conduct yourself here. You have continually shown that you can't seem to understand what is written to you, which makes these diologues frustrating at best.
> 
> With that said, as you have admitted that you believe in no touch techniques, in addition to completely blowing a gasket, this conversation can not possibly continue in a serious direction. I think we are done for today lol.




another one for the mods to investigate


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I explicitly pointed out, verbatim, the three things you accused me of saying in this thread that I didn't say. In the English language the word for that is "lying". I'm sorry if you don't like that word. Would you prefer if I called it purposeful dishonesty?
> 
> And yes, I did ask you once if your disability involved your reading comprehension, which is still something that seems to be true based on how you have and continue to conduct yourself here. You have continually shown that you can't seem to understand what is written to you, which makes these diologues frustrating at best.
> 
> With that said, as you have admitted that you believe in no touch techniques, in addition to completely blowing a gasket, this conversation can not possibly continue in a serious direction. I think we are done for today lol.



And you keep going on and on about combat do you actually know what that is??? or are you the armchair warrior that thimks he can but never has 

don't you dare ever call people on combat til you been there as guess what laddie it ain't like the movies and it ain't like ya xbow ya can't push reset and it all goes away 


you need to learn respect as you got none at all yet you will play the victim 

let the mods have a look and if your right then I will go ok


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

I think Aikido needs something like this;






Video footage of its effectiveness against someone trying to take an Aikidoka's head off. It helps if the guy is bigger and stronger than the Aikidoka.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I explicitly pointed out, verbatim, the three things you accused me of saying in this thread that I didn't say. In the English language the word for that is "lying". I'm sorry if you don't like that word. Would you prefer if I called it purposeful dishonesty?
> 
> And yes, I did ask you once if your disability involved your reading comprehension, which is still something that seems to be true based on how you have and continue to conduct yourself here. You have continually shown that you can't seem to understand what is written to you, which makes these diologues frustrating at best.
> 
> With that said, as you have admitted that you believe in no touch techniques, in addition to completely blowing a gasket, this conversation can not possibly continue in a serious direction. I think we are done for today lol.




And where were you MR combat when the party in the sand kicked off ? probably still in high school and where were you when the Balkans went to hell Mr I'm the combat man yeah where were you / so don't ever give anyone that crap about combat and effectiveness as laddie you know squat I seen your type many many times and when the first bang goes off then well the road runner wouldn't stand a chance of beating ya ......... 

Oh and my late wife yes well she was killed serving in your army greens and where was I in the crap hole in the sand and I didn't even know for two weeks so don't talk to me about breakdowns I seen more crap than you will ever wanna see and I'm still standing


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2018)

Cam suggest that what this thread needs is a healthy discussion of koryu?


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> Cam suggest that what this thread needs is a healthy discussion of koryu?



By all means, start us off Steve!


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

So in conclusion, there is no evidence that aikido works in a fight, and if there is it's a very well kept secret.

/Thread


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> And where were you MR combat when the party in the sand kicked off ? probably still in high school and where were you when the Balkans went to hell Mr I'm the combat man yeah where were you / so don't ever give anyone that crap about combat and effectiveness as laddie you know squat I seen your type many many times and when the first bang goes off then well the road runner wouldn't stand a chance of beating ya .........
> 
> Oh and my late wife yes well she was killed serving in your army greens and where was I in the crap hole in the sand and I didn't even know for two weeks so don't talk to me about breakdowns I seen more crap than you will ever wanna see and I'm still standing


You can't really blame him for being to young to fight in the gulf war, I'm old enough but had the sense not to join the army, as I had a suspicion they might send me to a war, ( did they not mention that when you joined )and I'm not getting my self killed in some pointless argument about oil and pipe lines and invisible lines in the sand, no sir, I was keeping the home fires burning, they also serve who only sit and wait,


----------



## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

jobo said:


> You can't really blame him for being to young to fight in the gulf war, I'm old enough but had the sense not to join the army, as I had a suspicion they might send me to a war, ( did they not mention that when you joined )and I'm not getting my self killed in some pointless argument about oil and pipe lines and invisible lines in the sand, no sir,


Not to mention I'm Canadian. We had some peacekeepers over there but not too many, and you'd have to be a masochist to join the Canadian military. Those dudes are not treated well.

Also, I don't get down for the whole being the pointy end for the interests of fatcat billionaires. I wouldn't have gone even if I was American.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2018)

Martial D said:


> "I've said before that *functional use of Aikido* has to include non-aiki application of the same techniques (including strikes). When someone knows what you're going to use, and works to nullify it, it changes what you use unless you outclass them sufficiently."
> 
> Where might I find this functional use to examine?


The best collected evidence you'll find is those Tomiki competitions. They use Aikido in those. Some of it looks (and operates) like Judo, because they're not focused on only doing the aiki application. If you saw me grappling with someone, you'd probably see what I'm doing as being mostly Judo. While there's some Judo influence, most of what I do is most heavily drawn from the NGA techniques from Daito-ryu (the same primary source as Aikido). If someone with Aikido training steps into a ring, you're just not going to see much of the big, easily-recognizable aiki applications. If you see anything definitively Aikido, it'll be in the movement, rather than the technique.

I'm not aware of anyone who has taken Aikido as a major influence into anything like MMA at a level we'd get to see. It's just not a direct enough route to be worth it. Someone serious about competition will take the shortest route to the solutions they need.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If you saw me grappling with someone,



What are the odds of that happening? Im actually very interested in what you do.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 22, 2018)

Steve said:


> This may be true, and if so, suggests the sales pitch is very misleading.


This is, I think, the overall issue. People know that Aikido is effective to help other arts, provide new movements, etc. and I have no way to prove it, but I also have no way to disprove it or reason to doubt it. The issue that I have is those who claim it is a self-defense system on it's own, since that's ignoring the whole 'effective to help _other arts'_ aspect of it.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yeah I think I get you
> 
> Again he ain't a fighter imo and jumping ship as he kinda has isn't gonna make him one either ....................but just my opinion ....I didn't say he wasn't good I said he was ok ....and well if you really want me to crit his Aikido I will do that in private not in public



Well we will find out. I mean if changing systems makes him a fighter.

That will also shed a light on to a few concepts about the style and the individual.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Really what that guy is kinda doing is burning his own bridges in a way as doing what he is doing so publicly (yeah some may call it balls ) he will find it difficult to throw off later if he ever wants to return and study more and deeper as pissing off the future shihan and high dan grades would do have clout within Aikido is not the wisest move as it kinda unlikely that he will ever he overly welcome again to grade ....I say that as really he has sorta said I'm a former BB now I'm an MMA guy and well not the wisest move at all imo



And that is everything that is wrong with Aikido.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 22, 2018)

now disabled said:


> not your fault but I will not take more of a person that has to insult then name call the run and play victim go read what he said regarding my disability


What did he say about it? I must have skipped over that part.


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## Martial D (Aug 22, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> What did he say about it? I must have skipped over that part.



I have no idea what his actual disability even is bro. He cracked his shell.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The best collected evidence you'll find is those Tomiki competitions. They use Aikido in those. Some of it looks (and operates) like Judo, because they're not focused on only doing the aiki application. If you saw me grappling with someone, you'd probably see what I'm doing as being mostly Judo. While there's some Judo influence, most of what I do is most heavily drawn from the NGA techniques from Daito-ryu (the same primary source as Aikido). If someone with Aikido training steps into a ring, you're just not going to see much of the big, easily-recognizable aiki applications. If you see anything definitively Aikido, it'll be in the movement, rather than the technique.
> 
> I'm not aware of anyone who has taken Aikido as a major influence into anything like MMA at a level we'd get to see. It's just not a direct enough route to be worth it. Someone serious about competition will take the shortest route to the solutions they need.


Any chance you could find a video in one of those tournaments of someone using Aiki, and someone not using Aiki? I'm really curious if it is something that can actually be seen.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Okay..... So you're saying that you DO believe that Ueshbia could throw people around without touching them.
> 
> So why has this incredible ability never been performed in a live fight? I mean, the ability to throw someone to the ground without touching them would revolutionize martial arts (and the laws of physics).



The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.

But yeah unlikely.

I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2018)

The way that he feels about his Aikido is the same way that I feel about my Taiji. I started my Taiji training since I was 7. I do believe that Taiji can be used in fighting 200 years ago. But the way people train Taiji today, there is no way that it can be used in fighting. May be Aikido could be used in fighting. But definitely not the way that Aikido people train today.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 22, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> He's gotten a lot of hate for all of this, mainly from fellow Aikido practitioners who think that he embarrassed their art or something.


If I have time, I prefer to train my Chinese wrestling than to train my Taiji. If you care about fighting, life is too short to be wasted.


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## Michele123 (Aug 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The way that he feels about his Aikido is the same way that I feel about my Taiji. I started my Taiji training since I was 7. I do believe that Taiji can be used in fighting 200 years ago. But the way people train Taiji today, there is no way that it can be used in fighting. May be Aikido could be used in fighting. But definitely not the way that Aikido people train today.



I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third). 

JMHO. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## marques (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Do individuals like this hurt or help their respective styles or martial arts in general?


My opinion is cross-training is great to test ourselves in a different environment. No intrinsic downside.
Answering the question, 'individuals' like that may help or not martial arts.

Pros:
- brave enough to face an experienced figther (and put it online).
- Tried to improve* Aikido. (read tried to make is style work against controled [but real] opposition; would recomend it to everyone).

Cons:
- He put himself in a situation were Aikido has little chance, does not matter the praticioner, isn't it? Aikido in gloves?! Against someone that does not commit with, or telegraph, every attack?
- He lost even before trying, due to his mindset.
- People may overgeneralise and think X or Y martial art is useless and only MMA works.

To finish, if X martial arts guy fights a good MMA guy in MMA rules, of course he looses. Mayweather or Mike Tyson would loose against a current MMA fighter (well, at heavyweight we never know...). If a trained MMA guy goes to a boxing match or BJJ competition and wants to win, he most fight lower ranks. Last point, MMA also works against the practicioner (more than other 'weak' styles); they are all injured at some point if not living with injuries all the time.

*What I think on Chinese martial arts, is they are too much complex (and with a complex history), so people hardly can understand and apply it in most scenarios; and it may apply as well to Japanese martial arts and Aikido. Maybe _his_ Aikido is weak, to start with (up to the wrong scenario for Aikido and wrong midset for a competition).


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

marques said:


> To finish, if X martial arts guy fights a good MMA guy in MMA rules, of course he looses. Mayweather or Mike Tyson would loose against a current MMA fighter (well, at heavyweight we never know...). If a trained MMA guy goes to a boxing match or BJJ competition and wants to win, he most fight lower ranks. Last point, MMA also works against the practicioner (more than other 'weak' styles); they are all injured at some point if not living with injuries all the time.
> 
> *What I think on Chinese martial arts, is they are too much complex (and with a complex history), so people hardly can understand and apply it in most scenarios; and it may apply as well to Japanese martial arts and Aikido. Maybe _his_ Aikido is weak, to start with (up to the wrong scenario for Aikido and wrong midset for a competition).



I hear this argument quite often, and I simply think it is dubious bordering into ridiculous. This argument has really started gaining steam again after the MMA fighter in China started challenging traditional Chinese arts and frankly beat them rather easily. 

If we're going under standard rules of no biting, no groin attacks, etc. why would MMA have such an overwhelming advantage? Is the argument then to say that if there were NO rules, the Aikidoka would suddenly have a chance? What rules specifically hinder a non-MMA  fighter from being able to beat a MMA fighter in a controlled environment?


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> ...


In general, I think your point is a very good one.  In this case, he began this arc with pressure testing his art.  So he sparred, trying to apply aikido under pressure.   We are seeing now his conclusion that it isn't (in his estimation) the pressure testing.  He concludes it is the aikido.


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## jobo (Aug 23, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> ...



But that's rather a circular arguments, aikido doesn't general spar( meaningful ly) so it's seldom if ever pressure tested, hence no one knows for certain it works or not, which is why you get practitioners getting all indignant, if you suggest they should prove it to be effective, it's like asking a devout Christian to prove his God exists, it's an article of faith that it does despite absolutely no supporting evidence,

As not pressure testing is the very essence of aikido, saying it might work if it was pressure tested, is pointless, they don't And wont,pressure test for fear of proving it doesn't work, then there just blokes in skirts doing a dance.


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## mrt2 (Aug 23, 2018)

Things have changed a lot in martial arts since


Michele123 said:


> I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, *but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?*  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> ...


That is true, but the problem as I understand it is, Aikido practitioners generally don't spar. 

No traditional martial art is perfect, but some are more flawed than others.  Put another way, no Wing Chun, Karate, or Tae Kwon Do black belt will do well in an MMA fight without additional training.  

My takeaway from this guy's video's is, Aikido is great for self improvement,  aesthetic beauty, and spiritual health.  Not so good at self defense.

I respect the guy's courage to take a close look at an art he spent over a decade learning and facing the fact that it is less useful in the real world than he thought it was.  FWIW, in one of his videos, he does address the criticism that maybe the fault is his own, and he issues a challenge to other Aikidoka to prove him wrong.  To date, I don;'t think anyone has taken him up on the challenge and gotten in the ring with an MMA fighter.


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## mrt2 (Aug 23, 2018)

A lot has changed in the martial arts landscape since I first stepped into a Tang Soo Do dojang over 35 years ago.  Back then, I think most practitioners of martial arts were a bit cultish in our belief that our martial art was a complete art.  I really believed that in a "no rules" fight, a good Tang Soo Do fighter could beat an elite boxer.  MMA was still decades away, so most of this was theoretical, since most of our tournaments were against other Korean martial arts, or occasionally, Kung Fu or Japanese Martial arts.  And it was light contact rules. No TMA ever actually got in the ring with an elite boxer or wrestler.

These days, most TMA teachers, if they are honest, will tell their students what the strength and weaknesses of their art is.  For example, I am perfectly aware that if I wanted to compete in a cage fight, I would need to incorporate boxing and grappling to my game, and would also have to spar with much different rules than we spar with (allowing take downs, and punches to the head, both of which are not allowed in TKD point sparring).  I think our head instructor is moving that direction, and his son, who is the assistant instructor, even more so, as he also did some boxing and incorporates boxing moves into his classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What are the odds of that happening? Im actually very interested in what you do.


I haven't had a good opportunity in a while, except the chance I had with Tony, and I mostly spent that stealing ideas - we never got around to actually rolling/sparring. So, your chances of seeing it are slim unless you send me a partner down here to grapple with. 

Currently, my program is shut down until I find a new location, and the Hobbit's back prevents us from doing any serious live grappling most of the time. But I do love an opportunity to spar/grapple/roll with someone from outside NGA (not enough of that happens in most of NGA).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Any chance you could find a video in one of those tournaments of someone using Aiki, and someone not using Aiki? I'm really curious if it is something that can actually be seen.


Not aiki: 




Lots of aiki movement early, and the first technique executed is quite aiki: 




Now, clearly, what they can do is largely facilitated by the rules. You wouldn't see the same interaction if the opponent was a boxer (entirely different entries, which changes the opportunities). Might see about half of the same if the opponent were a Judo player.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.
> 
> But yeah unlikely.


The only "no touch" I've ever experienced used this sort of principle. The guy used his hands to crowd my face as I entered to cause that flinch to put me on my heels, then dropped his arms on a straight vertical to keep me back. It's not a good description, but if you stood double-weighted (50% of weight on each foot, feet parallel) right at a wall and tried to squat without touching the wall, you'd feel what I felt. I wouldn't trust it in a fight, but it was impressively embarrassing to not be able to resist it.



> I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?


I've never heard aiki described in a way that would cover that, but I wonder if folks from Daito-ryu would say yes. I had a training partner for several years who had extensive Daito-ryu experience, and he was like that. If he was standing still, all I had was strikes, because there wasn't any way I could find to reliably move him.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, most of Aikido doesn't really include sparring, or a reasonable analog. I don't think the fault is the art (it simply is what it is), but in the way it is commonly trained.


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not aiki:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.

If there was a Tomiki Aikido dojo locally, I would love to check it out. Unfortunately there don't appear to be any in Kentucky.


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## Martial D (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I haven't had a good opportunity in a while, except the chance I had with Tony, and I mostly spent that stealing ideas - we never got around to actually rolling/sparring. So, your chances of seeing it are slim unless you send me a partner down here to grapple with.
> 
> Currently, my program is shut down until I find a new location, and the Hobbit's back prevents us from doing any serious live grappling most of the time. But I do love an opportunity to spar/grapple/roll with someone from outside NGA (not enough of that happens in most of NGA).


If you ever happen to be in the Vancouver BC area send me a message!


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.
> 
> If there was a Tomiki Aikido dojo locally, I would love to check it out. Unfortunately there don't appear to be any in Kentucky.


Yeah, if I were looking to expand my experience in aiki arts, I'd be looking for a Tomiki school. This was literally the second video I looked at to respond to KD's post (the first was the non-aiki one I posted), and it's probably the best example of aiki I've seen in a video of a Tomiki tournament.

I wonder if a Tomiki practitioner would be able to find those same openings with a BJJ guy. I'd think not - at least in a tournament - since I'd think they're like to be entering lower, to get to the ground. What do you think?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> If you ever happen to be in the Vancouver BC area send me a message!


Happily, brother!


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not aiki:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not aiki:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm really a fan of that second video. Different than anything I've seen before.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.


Yup. Imagine someone with that style also incorporating punches. It would be awesome to watch


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## elder999 (Aug 23, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Yup. Imagine someone with that style also incorporating punches. It would be awesome to watch



It would almost be.....jujutsu.......just sayin'


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I really like this. It really changes the entire dynamic of the throws and set ups, and adds quite a bit of dynamism to the art. I wonder what would happen if competitive Aikido began absorbing outside techniques to bolster its weaknesses.


I'd be really interested to see that. First, understand that Tomiki has fewer gaps than some other branches of Aikido (and is less "aiki" focused, in my opinion - those kind of go together). I think if you really get to the foundation of fighting skills, it'd be possible for it to stop being Aikido. Here's my reasoning: it takes a long time to develop good aiki flow to be able to do what that guy did. It takes considerably less time to develop a good hip throw, single-leg, or even drop seoi nage. So, if the rules don't somehow favor aiki movement, those who want to win would do better early if they focus on other skills. And if they win with them early, they'll probably stick with them, because there's more payoff in getting highly skilled in those than in adding a layer of mediocre aiki to mediocre other stuff.

In my view, from what I know of Tomiki (relatively little, in the grand scheme), it's the middle ground. At one end would be starting with classical Aikido and working hard to make it useful, which takes a long time. At the other end would be starting with foundational fighting skills, getting competent with those, then adding Aikido on top. Tomiki is somewhere between those. Yoshinkan is, too, though they don't have competition, and I don't know how much resistive training they typically do, so it's much harder to see what theirs would look like in actual application.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

elder999 said:


> It would almost be.....jujutsu.......just sayin'


Yep. I think it's useful to remember that Daito-ryu (the main foundation for Aikido) was aiki-jujutsu. And that "aiki" was an add-on term (I've heard conflicting reports about whether it was in use before Takeda Sokaku's time). Essentially, as I've had it explained to me by someone well informed, Daito-ryu Jujutsu is the core, with the aiki-jujutsu being sort of a "higher level".

So, take the "aiki" off, and you get more "jujutsu", unsurprisingly.


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## pdg (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The only "no touch" I've ever experienced used this sort of principle. The guy used his hands to crowd my face as I entered to cause that flinch to put me on my heels, then dropped his arms on a straight vertical to keep me back. It's not a good description, but if you stood double-weighted (50% of weight on each foot, feet parallel) right at a wall and tried to squat without touching the wall, you'd feel what I felt. I wouldn't trust it in a fight, but it was impressively embarrassing to not be able to resist it.



Is that because you weren't expecting it?

I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed


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## pdg (Aug 23, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> These days, most TMA teachers, if they are honest, will tell their students what the strength and weaknesses of their art is. For example, I am perfectly aware that if I wanted to compete in a cage fight, I would need to incorporate boxing and grappling to my game, and would also have to spar with much different rules than we spar with (allowing take downs, and punches to the head, both of which are not allowed in TKD point sparring).



I think a reasonably complete TMA practitioner would stand an evens chance myself, as long as they're not utterly outclassed (beginner against seasoned fighter kinda deal). Under certain conditions.

Mainly (like you say) sparring in an appropriate manner to start with...

Our TKD sparring is different to yours, and we regularly spar against the kickboxers, some of whom came from a 'pure' boxing background.

I find I don't need to adjust my TKD to do well enough against the kickboxers/boxers - and if takedowns and the rest were allowed (and practiced more) then the chances would move higher (takedowns, grappling, ground - all "in" TKD, but you normally have to look very hard to find it).

If more schools did that sort of thing, maybe there'd be less of this sort of thread?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Is that because you weren't expecting it?
> 
> I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed


Yeah, if you knew it was coming, you could just shove past the flinch. Of course if you know it's coming and it works, you'd think it was something you did, being too compliant.

The thing about it was that it didn't make me react like a strike, but more like a sudden leaf in the face when you walk past a tree. Does that make sense?


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## marques (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> I hear this argument quite often, and I simply think it is dubious bordering into ridiculous. This argument has really started gaining steam again after the MMA fighter in China started challenging traditional Chinese arts and frankly beat them rather easily.
> 
> If we're going under standard rules of no biting, no groin attacks, etc. why would MMA have such an overwhelming advantage? Is the argument then to say that if there were NO rules, the Aikidoka would suddenly have a chance? What rules specifically hinder a non-MMA  fighter from being able to beat a MMA fighter in a controlled environment?


Not trying to defend Aikido or whatever martial art. Just some have great principles (theory) that they can hardly apply in practice. (So cross training would help here, I said before.) When I read about, I recognise them in the training I got (but I was never told about that principles/concepts verbally) and they are good and work.

I never said NO rules would favour the Aikidoka. I just said the MMA guy was sparring in his environment against someone that never sparred. Easy. Now tell the MMA guy he can only do Aikido moves and he does not have a clue as well. It is it what I was saying.

Yeh, some styles never move from a collaborative environment to a competitive one. Many styles could improve his training, including MMA; too many injuries there.


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## jobo (Aug 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I think a reasonably complete TMA practitioner would stand an evens chance myself, as long as they're not utterly outclassed (beginner against seasoned fighter kinda deal). Under certain conditions.
> 
> Mainly (like you say) sparring in an appropriate manner to start with...
> 
> ...



We'll yes, that's self evidently true, if all ma,were mixed martial arts, there would be no threads like this one.

though there might be threads about which mix was better, pitty the poor sole that takes a combined version of aikido with wing Chun, footwork and tkd punches , oooch


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, if I were looking to expand my experience in aiki arts, I'd be looking for a Tomiki school. This was literally the second video I looked at to respond to KD's post (the first was the non-aiki one I posted), and it's probably the best example of aiki I've seen in a video of a Tomiki tournament.
> 
> I wonder if a Tomiki practitioner would be able to find those same openings with a BJJ guy. I'd think not - at least in a tournament - since I'd think they're like to be entering lower, to get to the ground. What do you think?



Tomiki has the same gaps as the rest of Aikido 

the tornament stuff is different 

You want Aikido that is hard and more like the original 

then look to the Yoshinkan and either the shenshusei or the Kenshusei ...there you will find that hard real stuff


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## pdg (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, if you knew it was coming, you could just shove past the flinch. Of course if you know it's coming and it works, you'd think it was something you did, being too compliant.
> 
> The thing about it was that it didn't make me react like a strike, but more like a sudden leaf in the face when you walk past a tree. Does that make sense?



Kind of makes sense - but I'd have a hard time believing it's any more "no touch" than a tree can perform 

Maybe it'd work within defined rules of engagement - but would it still work if you were allowed to brush it aside and punch/kick him?


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## pdg (Aug 23, 2018)

jobo said:


> We'll yes, that's self evidently true, if all ma,were mixed martial arts, there would be no threads like this one.
> 
> though there might be threads about which mix was better, pitty the poor sole that takes a combined version of aikido with wing Chun, footwork and tkd punches , oooch



I'm not on about mixing the arts, just mixing the sparring.

It's less about finding what works and more about finding out how to make things work. For instance, I can make TKD punches and blocks work against a boxer. Not every single time, but a boxer can't stop another boxer every single time either.

I may attend kickboxing classes, but from an extra workout perspective - I'm not trying to modify or add to my TKD...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I love the execution of the move at around 1:11 on the second video. Very slick and not something you would expect to see pulled off in a BJJ tournament, even though it would be perfectly legal.


That move in Chinese wrestling is called "floating (or raising)". IMO, that's more of a demo throw than a tournament throw.

You have to

- use 2 hands to against 1 arm.
- keep your opponent's arm to be straight while you twist his arm.
- move yourself 45 degree behind him.

It's very difficult to make this throw work on the mat. I have never seen anybody who can apply that throw in tournament. Even in demo, most of the time, it will look fake. Your opponent may have to flip himself to release from the arm twisting pressure.


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Aug 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It's very difficult to make this throw work on the mat. I have never seen anybody who can apply that throw in tournament. Even in demo, most of the time, it will look fake.


That's what was so impressive about the video clip - the guy _did_ pull it off in a tournament against a resisting opponent. I've seen the throw in demos plenty of times. That's the only time I've seen it successfully executed in competition.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

dup, deleted.


----------



## O'Malley (Aug 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Is that because you weren't expecting it?
> 
> I can't see that technique 'crowding' your face more than, say, a 16oz boxing glove being shoved in your face at speed



Well, Tomiki guys have this "shomen ate" technique where they push on your face/chin, making your head roll back so that you fall backwards (IIRC it also exists in Yoshinkan and sumo guys use similar principles all the time). Gerry might have experienced a version of this where he flinched before making contact, maybe because the angle was unexpected.



kempodisciple said:


> This is, I think, the overall issue. People know that Aikido is effective to help other arts, provide new movements, etc. and I have no way to prove it, but I also have no way to disprove it or reason to doubt it. The issue that I have is those who claim it is a self-defense system on it's own, since that's ignoring the whole 'effective to help _other arts'_ aspect of it.



Maybe modern Aikikai aikido can be considered that way. But the theory that early proponents of aikido owed their effectiveness to their other martial background and that aikido is only useful as a "power up" does not hold up. Leaving aside some guys like Kuroiwa that had some martial background but changed radically their fighting style (in his case, from boxing to hip throws), some of the early disciples were ferocious fighters while having aikido as their sole art (Tadashi Abe comes to mind but there are others like Saito, Tada, etc.). Even more strikingly (and again, we'll leave the case of Sokaku Takeda aside), two monsters like Morihei Ueshiba and Yukiyoshi Sagawa literally thrashed experienced martial artists while having Daitô-ryu as their sole (Sagawa) or only significant (Ueshiba) martial training. And aikido as taught by Morihei Ueshiba was a slightly altered version of Daitô-ryu, he even taught it under that name until the '30s. Aikido has been effective, even tremendously effective to the point that Jigoro Kano (the founder of Judo that defeated his jujutsu teachers in live bouts and invented his own system at the age of 23) expressely sent people to study with Ueshiba.



drop bear said:


> The only way you could do it is somehow flinch a guy then keep following that line until they fall over.
> 
> But yeah unlikely.
> 
> I wonder if those wrestlers and judokas who seem unnaturally rock solid would be an example of aiki?



Unnatural stability is one of the attributes that is obtained through internal martial arts. You can see the same phenomenon with high-level Taiji or Yichuan practicioners. And yeah, it is one of the attributes that Daitô-ryu's "aiki" training is supposed to cultivate.



Michele123 said:


> I didn’t watch the whole video, and I’m not real familiar with Aikido, but if he doesn’t generally spar, how does he expect to use his Aikido well in sparing?  It seems to me that blaming Aikido techniques for lack of training is silly. If you don’t practice under pressure, how can you perform under pressure?  It seems to me, practicing sparing for a while would give a better test of Aikido than the very first time you’ve ever sparred (or second or third).
> 
> JMHO.
> 
> ...



Quoted for truth.

Back to the original topic, this guy's approach is kind of positive for him and the art. Ok, he's far from the best representative that could have been "sent" to show aikido against MMA and he's done quite the bad advertisement for aikido but in the end most aikidoka will continue to do their own thing so it's not that problematic. On the other end, one can hope that some will try to prove him wrong or to rethink their own training (like Bruce Bookman's initiative). And who knows? He might come up with something at the end of his journey (even though I feel like he's not skilled enough in aikido to do so).

However, I think that a better approach is to wonder what has been lost since the days where aikido was martially effective. I have a number of factors in mind:

1) changes were made in the techniques to make them more accessible (by Kisshomaru Ueshiba and Koichi Tohei)
2) the esoteric training (meant to cultivate internal strength) has been lost either because of lack of interest, lack of understanding or because it was not taught
3) aikidoka don't spar anymore: indeed while sparring was not formally in the curriculum, Osensei's disciples used to wrestle among themselves and had plenty of opportunities to practice against resisting opponents
4) training was way more intense back then

Well, all this is but a personal opinion.


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

marques said:


> Not trying to defend Aikido or whatever martial art. Just some have great principles (theory) that they can hardly apply in practice. (So cross training would help here, I said before.) When I read about, I recognise them in the training I got (but I was never told about that principles/concepts verbally) and they are good and work.
> 
> I never said NO rules would favour the Aikidoka. I just said the MMA guy was sparring in his environment against someone that never sparred. Easy. Now tell the MMA guy he can only do Aikido moves and he does not have a clue as well. It is it what I was saying.
> 
> Yeh, some styles never move from a collaborative environment to a competitive one. Many styles could improve his training, including MMA; too many injuries there.



Again, how is a controlled environment incredibly disadvantageous to someone performing Aikido? If Aikido is designed to neutralize or incapacitate an attacker, and Aikidoka have training with intercepting strikes, placing someone off balance, etc. shouldn't the Aikidoka be able to perform their techniques in a neutral environment with a padded surface?

Additionally, saying that an Aikidoka fighting in a ring is equivalent to a MMA practitioner being forced to use an art they've never trained in before is an utterly laughable. That isn't even close to comparable.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> That's what was so impressive about the video clip - the guy _did_ pull it off in a tournament against a resisting opponent. I've seen the throw in demos plenty of times. That's the only time I've seen it successfully executed in competition.


In that clip, his opponent just got back up from the ground and didnot have proper grips on him. If they stand face to face, it will be very difficult to move 45 degree behind his opponent.

In the following clip, he moves in under his opponent's right arm. I find this to be very difficult to do in tournament.


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## O'Malley (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Again, how is a controlled environment incredibly disadvantageous to someone performing Aikido? If Aikido is designed to neutralize or incapacitate an attacker, and Aikidoka have training with intercepting strikes, placing someone off balance, etc. shouldn't the Aikidoka be able to perform their techniques in a neutral environment with a padded surface?
> 
> Additionally, saying that an Aikidoka fighting in a ring is equivalent to a MMA practitioner being forced to use an art they've never trained in before is an utterly laughable. That isn't even close to comparable.



While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.

Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...


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## jobo (Aug 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm not on about mixing the arts, just mixing the sparring.
> 
> It's less about finding what works and more about finding out how to make things work. For instance, I can make TKD punches and blocks work against a boxer. Not every single time, but a boxer can't stop another boxer every single time either.
> 
> I may attend kickboxing classes, but from an extra workout perspective - I'm not trying to modify or add to my TKD...


If your going to include it in the sparing, bbj say, then you need to include it in the teaching, if you include it in the teaching , your teaching mixed martial arts.

Really, all the tkd people I've met look like t rex, great big thighs and little withered arms


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.
> 
> Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...



MMA also has techniques that have a high risk of breaking joints. The art where most of those joint breaking techniques come from is Bjj, and Bjj practitioners are also fully capable of fighting or neutralizing someone without snapping their limbs. I'm also aware that Aikido has plenty of locks and holds that require no wrist or arm snapping, so why can't they do those instead of doing "teH DeAdly" techniques?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.


Old saying said, "A bad punch is better than a good joint lock."

How effective is the joint lock? A friend of mine demonstrated "anti-locking" on the stage. He invited anybody to get up on the stage and applied any joint lock on him. Not even a single person could lock his joint.

Aikido has "unbendable arm". If you think there are water that go through your arm from your shoulder to your finger tips, it will be very difficult to bend your arm. In Taiji, that's called Peng Jin.

Anybody can learn those 40 joint locking skills within 3 hours. Whether that person can apply any of those locking skill in his lifetime can be questionable.

I don't believe in single locking skill. I do believe in combo locking skill. You try to

- straight your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and bend his arm.
- bend your opponent's arm, when he resists, you borrow his resistance and straight his arm.

I'm not sure whether Aikido emphasizes on locking skill combo or not.


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## Martial D (Aug 23, 2018)

I think....

Every time an aikido thread is created, everyone that posts in it should have to send @gpseymour 5 dollars.

For reffing


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> While I agree with the general idea of your post, I do think that aikido requires a certain "decisiveness" in the entries and in performing the techniques. Some of the techniques of aikido have a high risk of breaking the joints of the person they are applied to.
> 
> Unless you are able to win the encounter at the moment of contact and/or have extraordinary mastery to refrain from hurting your opponent? After all, Sokaku Takeda reportedly never injured anyone in practice...




Yes it does require decisive entry ...

and in that vid he looked like a scared wee boy .., You come from the Iwama style could you imagine what your teachers teacher would have made of that ....I know exactly what saito sensei would have done ....finger pointed towards the door and at the Yoshinkan ...he would never have made it past week 3 of the senshusei period


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> MMA also has techniques that have a high risk of breaking joints. The art where most of those joint breaking techniques come from is Bjj, and Bjj practitioners are also fully capable of fighting or neutralizing someone without snapping their limbs. I'm also aware that Aikido has plenty of locks and holds that require no wrist or arm snapping, so why can't they do those instead of doing "teH DeAdly" techniques?




Eh that depends on what you are given ....if what you are given to enter upon is the opening for kotegaeshi or Hiji waza then thats where ya go ...if the opening is for irimi nage or kaiten nage then thats where ya go ....you don't pre decide what your gonna go with


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Eh that depends on what you are given ....if what you are given to enter upon is the opening for kotegaeshi or Hiji waza then thats where ya go ...if the opening is for irimi nage or kaiten nage then thats where ya go ....you don't pre decide what your gonna go with



That applies to every MA out there, not just Aikido. Your martial art should give you the tools to capitalize on what you are given.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

going into anything with pre determined ideas is a good way of losing 

The only way that anyone who is not an Aikidoka to fully understand is to actually go train do the techs and feel them done on you and not by a low rank but by a high grade who knows how to no matter what yo come at him with as he will not be or have a pre determined idea of what he gonna do he will go with what you give and offer


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Every time an aikido thread is created, ...


Aikido is similar to Taiji. There are just so many things that can be discussed.


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That applies to every MA out there, not just Aikido. Your martial art should give you the tools to capitalize on what you are given.




Yes ofcourse 

And Aikido does ...I know you won't but go look at the senshusei course (that the riot police course) do you honestly think that a course like that is gonna tech things that don't work ? and believe me it hell on earth and I wasn't a beginner or unfit when I did it and well when the riot boys join or you are allowed to join them it gets interesting ...


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Unnatural stability is one of the attributes that is obtained through internal martial arts. You can see the same phenomenon with high-level Taiji or Yichuan practicioners. And yeah, it is one of the attributes that Daitô-ryu's "aiki" training is supposed to cultivate.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Aikido is similar to Taiji. There are just so many things that can be discussed.




I agree and both arts can be applied how ever you wish them to be applied be it martial or indeed for health ...that choice is the person who undertakes the study to make ....and in what depth and what understanding he/she wants to take it to


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> going into anything with pre determined ideas is a good way of losing
> 
> The only way that anyone who is not an Aikidoka to fully understand is to actually go train do the techs and feel them done on you and not by a low rank but by a high grade who knows how to no matter what yo come at him with as he will not be or have a pre determined idea of what he gonna do he will go with what you give and offer



Which you virtually cant do. Unless you pick an ex Aikidoka. Otherwise they can't spar.

I may get access to a guy due to a hugly convoluted grading issue we have with jits at the moment. Paul cal may be doing our jits gradings who is also Aikido. 

He trains out of Townsville which is 300km away.


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Old saying said, "A bad punch is better than a good joint lock."
> 
> How effective is the joint lock? A friend of mine demonstrated "anti-locking" on the stage. He invited anybody to get up on the stage and applied any joint lock on him. Not even a single person could lock his joint.
> 
> ...




Sorta but the thing you say about borrowing his resistance is the same just described in a different way 

You might get this idea ....when the uke grabs and he gets hold ....you have already lost and are in effect playing catch up 

what you should see in well versed and skilled Aikidoka is just at the point of grab then he acts not after ...that is the difference and in most of the vids you are seeing techs being actually slowed down at seminars to teach the mechanics of said


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yes ofcourse
> 
> And Aikido does ...I know you won't but go look at the senshusei course (that the riot police course) do you honestly think that a course like that is gonna tech things that don't work ? and believe me it hell on earth and I wasn't a beginner or unfit when I did it and well when the riot boys join or you are allowed to join them it gets interesting ...



Industry training?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> Kind of makes sense - but I'd have a hard time believing it's any more "no touch" than a tree can perform
> 
> Maybe it'd work within defined rules of engagement - but would it still work if you were allowed to brush it aside and punch/kick him?


Agreed. And it wasn’t even that I was not allowed to respond - he just invited me to step in and attack. It was a well-calculated technique that produces an apparently predictable response in the dojo. I doubt the flinch response is as predictable in a fight.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which you virtually cant do. Unless you pick an ex Aikidoka. Otherwise they can't spar.
> 
> I may get access to a guy due to a hugly convoluted grading issue we have with jits at the moment. Paul cal may be doing our jits gradings who is also Aikido.
> 
> He trains out of Townsville which is 300km away.




Aikidoka do spar but not as you guys think of it


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> MMA also has techniques that have a high risk of breaking joints. The art where most of those joint breaking techniques come from is Bjj, and Bjj practitioners are also fully capable of fighting or neutralizing someone without snapping their limbs. I'm also aware that Aikido has plenty of locks and holds that require no wrist or arm snapping, so why can't they do those instead of doing "teH DeAdly" techniques?



Or just hit the position and let go. Like heel hooks.


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Industry training?




The senshusei ? lol it one of if not the toughest course around lol


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Yes ofcourse



So if it does, why can't it give you non-destructive methods to neutralize an opponent in a controlled environment?


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Industry training?




Yoshinkan Aikido is the closest you will get to the pre war stuff and is more like Daito-ryu than any off the others


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So if it does, why can't it give you non-destructive methods to neutralize an opponent in a controlled environment?




It does lol .... how you apply it is your choice ..........you can do Hiji waza without breaking but you can and break if you have to/want to


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> So if it does, why can't it give you non-destructive methods to neutralize an opponent in a controlled environment?




go have a look and read up about that course and I again say why would it be taught if it teaching things that do not work ?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

O'Malley said:


> Well, Tomiki guys have this "shomen ate" technique where they push on your face/chin, making your head roll back so that you fall backwards (IIRC it also exists in Yoshinkan and sumo guys use similar principles all the time). Gerry might have experienced a version of this where he flinched before making contact, maybe because the angle was unexpected.


As explained to me, this technique depends upon that flinch, and not upon any contact. The flinch does more or less what the technique you’re describing does. These guys used very gentle touch in their techniques. It was impressive what they could do so softly, though I have my doubts about the ability to use it in a fight.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> The senshusei ? lol it one of if not the toughest course around lol



I had a look on youtube. Yeah, look it would definately take some commitment.


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I had a look on youtube. Yeah, look it would definately take some commitment.




And you don't just turn up either you enrol they will look at you and then they will make up their minds if you can undertake the course .....and it is a sealed course the public can't come and join in when they want or choose lol


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Aikidoka do spar but not as you guys think of it



Which is not going to help if I throw on a pair of MMA gloves and tell the guy to wrist lock me.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In that clip, his opponent just got back up from the ground and didnot have proper grips on him. If they stand face to face, it will be very difficult to move 45 degree behind his opponent.
> 
> In the following clip, he moves in under his opponent's right arm. I find this to be very difficult to do in tournament.


That’s rather the point. He saw the opportunity and took it.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which is not going to help if I throw on a pair of MMA gloves and tell the guy to wrist lock me.




nope lol but the guy in the vid well he didn't work that out now did he lol ...


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which is not going to help if I throw on a pair of MMA gloves and tell the guy to wrist lock me.




And his attempt at entry was ..............even if he had of made the entry and thought crap he coulda at least followed on but nope he backed right out ....but as I said he had lost that before he even went in and the bell went ding


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That’s rather the point. He saw the opportunity and took it.




You wanna see something similar to the Tomiki comps have a gander at the TMPD comp and it Yoshinkan lol


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> And you don't just turn up either you enrol they will look at you and then they will make up their minds if you can undertake the course .....and it is a sealed course the public can't come and join in when they want or choose lol



Yeah. look probably not at Tiger team tryout level either.


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah. look probably not at Tiger team tryout level either.




Umm no lol


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> And his attempt at entry was ..............even if he had of made the entry and thought crap he coulda at least followed on but nope he backed right out ....but as I said he had lost that before he even went in and the bell went ding



Yeah but he hasn't been trained in fundemental basics. You get that live timing from sparring. 

Which he was told by MMA guy. He had to train solid MMA for a few years to get functionally good and then would be able to incorporate the Aikido.


----------



## pdg (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. And it wasn’t even that I was not allowed to respond - he just invited me to step in and attack. It was a well-calculated technique that produces an apparently predictable response in the dojo. I doubt the flinch response is as predictable in a fight.



This is actually something I'm trying to work on, in reverse...

Use the flinch, don't fight against it.

I've seen a lot of people trying to overcome the flinch reflex, to basically not react in that way so they can choose to do something else.

I think it's faster to keep the flinch, it's fast by itself so why not use that and expand on it?

It's hardly my original idea, but it seems logical to me.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> go have a look and read up about that course and I again say why would it be taught if it teaching things that do not work ?



Thats backwards

You teach things because they work.

They don't work because you are teaching them.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> It does lol .... how you apply it is your choice ..........you can do Hiji waza without breaking but you can and break if you have to/want to



Okay, so again; What aspect of a controlled environment (like a ring) gives an Aikidoka a disadvantage?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but he hasn't been trained in fundemental basics. You get that live timing from sparring.
> 
> Which he was told by MMA guy. He had to train solid MMA for a few years to get functionally good and then would be able to incorporate the Aikido.




yup and hence I said he had lost before he went in .....and not just on the physical level either but mentally he shot himself and hey two hits against and he was on a hiding to zero 

not once did I even see him even try he had lead in his feet and any spirit he has was left well somewhere else


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Okay, so again; What aspect of a controlled environment (like a ring) gives an Aikidoka a disadvantage?




Where is the ring coming into it ? it neither an advantage or disadvantage ...what is giving you that idea or are you basing that on the vid ?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Thats backwards
> 
> You teach things because they work.
> 
> They don't work because you are teaching them.




was being snarky lol....they teach it cause it does work and outta all the arts in japan it that course that was designed for the riot boys that still stands ... that says something ... as if what they were teaching didn't work why is it still going


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## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Where is the ring coming into it ? it neither an advantage or disadvantage ...what is giving you that idea or are you basing that on the vid ?



That's what I was talking about when you jumped into the conversation. The argument was that Aikido underperforms in a ring environment with rules because Aikido has dangerous techniques. My counter argument is that several martial arts (including MMA) have dangerous techniques. So, we're back to the original question; Why is Aikido at a disadvantage in a controlled environment?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I think....
> 
> Every time an aikido thread is created, everyone that posts in it should have to send @gpseymour 5 dollars.
> 
> For reffing


The Hobbit agrees.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's what I was talking about when you jumped into the conversation. The argument was that Aikido underperforms in a ring environment with rules because Aikido has dangerous techniques. My counter argument is that several martial arts (including MMA) have dangerous techniques. So, we're back to the original question; Why is Aikido at a disadvantage in a controlled environment?




As I jumped in I will jump out ok lol 

it is not at a disadvantage you have preconceived  ideas so that is that 


I will say something again go actually try it in an Aikido dojo .... and when you are asked to attack go for it and see what happens (but at least pick a yondan and above ) 

Also when you posted that website not all in there is true just for your info


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's what I was talking about when you jumped into the conversation. The argument was that Aikido underperforms in a ring environment with rules because Aikido has dangerous techniques. My counter argument is that several martial arts (including MMA) have dangerous techniques. So, we're back to the original question; Why is Aikido at a disadvantage in a controlled environment?




and I am still waiting for you to answer the first question I asked you ......which was do you think the Aikikai is the trad form of Aikido?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Which is not going to help if I throw on a pair of MMA gloves and tell the guy to wrist lock me.


Doing a wrist lock on someone who is specifically expecting one is never going to work if they know anything.


----------



## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Doing a wrist lock on someone who is specifically expecting one is never going to work if they know anything.




That I don't agree with and that is the first time I have not agreed


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> As I jumped in I will jump out ok lol
> 
> it is not at a disadvantage you have preconceived  ideas so that is that
> 
> ...


If you do that, please bring a friend and post it to YouTube!


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## now disabled (Aug 23, 2018)

Steve said:


> If you do that, please bring a friend and post it to YouTube!


I think you and I are best to avoid each other as I will never agree with you nor you with me


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

@now disabled what do you disagree with?  You think video is a bad idea?


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## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I think you and I are best to avoid each other as I will never agree with you nor you with me


I haven't given up on you.  I'm sorry you think we will never agree.   I never, ever speak in absolutes.  Never.


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## Martial D (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> You might get this idea ....when the uke grabs and he gets hold ....you have already lost and are in effect playing catch up



Which begs the question;why get ahold of them at all when you have the power to roll your hands over and have them flip onto their buts without even touching them?


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Doing a wrist lock on someone who is specifically expecting one is never going to work if they know anything.



Not if you are good.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> was being snarky lol....they teach it cause it does work and outta all the arts in japan it that course that was designed for the riot boys that still stands ... that says something ... as if what they were teaching didn't work why is it still going



Sorry you want me to guess?

Maybe it works. Maybe the guy who runs the training for the riot squad has no clue. 

Or has their own filters.

Or maybe the riot squad doesn't get it to the sort of engagements that really need good hand to hand.

Maybe police are basically disposable and the course was cheaper.

Why do people buy health supplements if they don't work?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> opening for "kotegaeshi" or "Hiji waza" ...when the "uke" grabs


Do we always have to use Japanese term in MA discussion? I have tried very hard not to use Chinese term. For example, I have always used

- "Chinese wrestling" instead of "Shuai Chiao".
- "Single leg" instead of "Kou".
- "Double legs" instead of "Lou".
- "Hip throw" instead of "Wen".
- "Leg lift" instead of "Tiao".
- ...


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

now disabled said:


> As I jumped in I will jump out ok lol
> 
> it is not at a disadvantage you have preconceived  ideas so that is that



I have preconceived notions based on evidence. However, the evidence isn't conclusive which is why I'm continuing to ask questions and not make declarative statements. Now, Gpseymour and another poster have provided a pretty good argument that actually supports the evidence I've seen and experienced. Their argument is that Aikido is more akin to Yoga and Tai Chi than MMA and Bjj. Your arguments simply do not. Your argument amounts to the "you haven't seen the TRUE art" myth that pops up way too often in these conversations. In an age with video EVERYWHERE and a Martial Art as old and widespread of Aikido, the idea that there is a true variation of Aikido out there that is hidden to the outside world is utter and complete nonsense.




> I will say something again go actually try it in an Aikido dojo .... and when you are asked to attack go for it and see what happens (but at least pick a yondan and above )



But we both know that isn't going to happen. Aikido isn't like MMA or Bjj where you can walk in and roll with a black belt or a senior student. In fact, given my size if I walk into an Aikido dojo wearing my Bjj gi and challenge the sensei, they'll probably ask me to leave, and when I refuse, they'll call the cops. On the other hand, I don't think that a Bjj school would mind if an Aikido black belt wanted to roll with the owner or senior instructor. In fact, they'll probably welcome it and get the video camera ready. Bjj culture is all about challenges, especially when more traditional arts come knocking.



> Also when you posted that website not all in there is true just for your info



What wasn't true?


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

MMA is a sport.

Aikido has been around for thousands of years.

Today's MMA fighters are not magically tougher than every ancient martial artist or warrior

Getting angry, aggressive  and running in trying to punch someone's head off only works in a ring, when life is not on the line, and no death strikes are allowed. Its like running into battle with your balls on your face. It's easy to beat someone up when they're not allowed to simply end you, and if you're sure they're not going to be using any environmental weapons or whatever they may be carrying. Masters of Aikido could take down Samurai


----------



## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> MMA is a sport.
> 
> Aikido has been around for thousands of years.
> 
> ...


Do tell.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

Steve said:


> Do tell.



So, in summary, you're not the bad *** you think you are. Nor are you even close to being some amazing warrior, even if you win the UFC whilst teabagging your opponent


----------



## Martial D (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> MMA is a sport.
> 
> Aikido has been around for thousands of years.
> 
> ...


Their power is in their time traveling abilities. It's hard to defeat time travelers you know.


----------



## Hanzou (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> MMA is a sport.
> 
> Aikido has been around for thousands of years.
> 
> ...



How has Aikido been around for thousands of years when its founder was born 135 years ago?


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Their power is in their time traveling abilities. It's hard to defeat time travelers you know.


Riiight

Because Americans today are the baddest warriors ever to live. 

In fantasy land. 

Where you're apparently from.

That's really the epitome of ignorance and arrogance


----------



## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, in summary, you're not the bad *** you think you are. Nor are you even close to being some amazing warrior, even if you win the UFC whilst teabagging your opponent


So in summary, are you the badass I think I am?  Is that the takeaway?


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> How has Aikido been around for thousands of years when its founder was born 135 years ago?


Its a modern form of an ancient art.

But that's all myth & lore is it, like Ninja or Shinobi. Or war-ready Sumo. Or, i mean, were Samurai ever even really a thing


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

Steve said:


> So in summary, are you the badass I think I am?  Is that the takeaway?


No. 

You're not a badass. Take that away with you


----------



## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

I feel like this thread finally moved from mildly interesting, if repetitive, to downright entertaining,   Great... now I have expectations, and will be disappointed if it doesn’t live up to expectations.


----------



## Steve (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> No.
> 
> You're not a badass. Take that away with you


So... you are the badass?  Are you?  Say yes.  


Say it.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

Steve said:


> So... you are the badass?  Are you?  Say yes.
> 
> 
> Say it.



There's no badass. Its a silly sport that causes brain damage.

There's the dead, and those who managed to escaped death today. 

Then there's the silly sportsters in the MMA who want to be punched in the face til they can't remember their name.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> There's no badass. Its a silly sport that causes brain damage.
> 
> There's the dead, and those who managed to escaped death today.
> 
> Then there's the silly sportsters in the MMA who want to be punched in the face til they can't remember their name.



Wait. We all escaped death today.

Does that mean I am a badass.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Wait. We all escaped death today.
> 
> Does that mean I am a badass.


Did you though

Were you engaged in mortal combat?

I suppose netflix on your sofa is the smarter move. More intelligent than fighting. So, you must either really be an elite grandmaster or it was just dumb luck.

Either way, good for you.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

I am not sure how life and death makes someone inherently better.

So say I have run away from bullets. Does that make me faster than someone who has only run in competition?


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Did you though
> 
> Were you engaged in mortal combat?
> 
> ...



Pretty sure I am not dead. 

Were you engaged in mortal combat today?


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> I am not sure how life and death makes someone inherently better.
> 
> So say I have run away from bullets. Does that make me faster than someone who has only run in competition?



If you ran away from bullets  you are dumber than the person who ran for sport and managed to not have people wanting to shoot him, regardless of your skill level


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 23, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Pretty sure I am not dead.
> 
> Were you engaged in mortal combat today?


So, as wanker, life is a bit different than that of a warrior 

Claim to be as badass as you want to be. You're not proving anything until you are engaged in mortal combat  And if you are engaged in mortal combat, you're simply lucky enough to be living after the engagement  regardless of your skill level. Nobody who lived in Feudal Japan considered themselves a badass. That title is reserved for Americans on television.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Steve said:


> So... you are the badass?  Are you?  Say yes.
> 
> 
> Say it.


Not sure if i'm sleep deprived or what, but i read this and started cracking up


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, as wanker, life is a bit different than that of a warrior
> 
> Claim to be as badass as you want to be. You're not proving anything until you are engaged in mortal combat  And if you are engaged in mortal combat, you're simply lucky enough to be living after the engagement  regardless of your skill level. Nobody who lived in Feudal Japan considered themselves a badass. That title is reserved for Americans on television.


Who here claimed to be badass? Im pretty sure you were the first to bring up that word.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Who here claimed to be badass? Im pretty sure you were the first to bring up that word.


Indeed  

As in, you're not. 

Neither is any MMA or sport fighter 

Thus, picking on traditional martial arts rooted with ancient warriors because you think you can kick their *** in the octagon at the UFC is absolutely asinine.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Indeed
> 
> As in, you're not.
> 
> ...


But aikido isn't ancient warriors, and the conversation isn't just about the ufc. All people are asking is some sort of evidence that aikido would work. In any scenario (including street fights), that what aikido teaches would be effective.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Indeed
> 
> As in, you're not.
> 
> ...


And for the record, since you seem to be implying it, i'm not a sports fighter. And i doubt I'll ever choose to change that. So im not making any claim i can beat someone in the octagan, since i have no reason to believe that. But if someone is stating their art is effective for self defense, i want to see some sort of reasoning behind it, that makes sense.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Riiight
> 
> Because Americans today are the baddest warriors ever to live.
> 
> ...


What's funny is the guy you're saying is a fake badass for being American..... is Canadian


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> But aikido isn't ancient warriors, and the conversation isn't just about the ufc. All people are asking is some sort of evidence that aikido would work. In any scenario (including street fights), that what aikido teaches would be effective.


Aikido wasn't invented recently. It was simply modified for sport recently. So as a sport alone  its excellent. You don't put Muay Thai Boxers with Western Boxers or MMA fighters for a reason  they're different sports.

Tae Kwon Do today is a sport with roots in actual War. Making fun of the Viability of an art that was created in Ancient times not for fun but for actual necessity is just stupid.

Likewise, Aikido was something of a Police Force tactic used to disable and subdue armed or unarmed combatants meaning to kill you.

If you want to enjoy Aikido as a sport, go play with other Aikido practicioners. If you want to do western boxing, you simply won't have fun in a ring with a Muay Thai Boxer.

Saying you can beat either of them simply because your choice of sport allows more types of strikes and grappling is just a dumb observation & a statement of the obvious.

Obviously you're going to have to maximize the rules of the sport. Doing only Aikido in no holds barred sport fighting is like going to play basketball with your football cleats and gear on. 

Its really just not where you belong. But one is no better than the other  They're different sports with different rules.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> What's funny is the guy you're saying is a fake badass for being American..... is Canadian


And a lot of UFC fighters are from other countries. Its an American sport. So.. The silliness is America's


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> What's funny is the guy you're saying is a fake badass for being American..... is Canadian


Oh boy we've got our new monthly trouble maker here


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Riiight
> 
> Because Americans today are the baddest warriors ever to live.
> 
> ...


What are you even responding to?

You see, the time traveling comes in when the aikidoka time travel back thousands of years to fight the samurai(is Tom cruise in this one?)

I assume that's how they got there as aikido wasn't founded until 1942.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Oh boy we've got our new monthly trouble maker here



Right. If trouble seems to follow you, it might be you.

The UFC is a Joke. Stop pretending its the example of a real warrior and the ultimate expression of being anything but guy in tight underwear trying to punch someone in the face as much as he can until his brain separates from his skull and makes him forget how to dress himself for the rest of his life  

Its not even on the same page as most Martial Arts. Its creating rules where the winner is free to punch people in the face a bazillion times or teabag him into submission and nothing more


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What are you even responding to?
> 
> You see, the time traveling comes in when the aikidoka time travel back thousands of years to fight the samurai(is Tom cruise in this one?)
> 
> I assume that's how they got there as aikido wasn't founded until 1942.


That's one simpleton hillbilly perspective. Good on you.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, as wanker, life is a bit different than that of a warrior
> 
> Claim to be as badass as you want to be. You're not proving anything until you are engaged in mortal combat  And if you are engaged in mortal combat, you're simply lucky enough to be living after the engagement  regardless of your skill level. Nobody who lived in Feudal Japan considered themselves a badass. That title is reserved for Americans on television.


My favourite guy is sub zero


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> That's one simpleton hillbilly perspective. Good on you.



Ok, must have been the magic of Hollywood I guess.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> My favourite guy is sub zero



Keep clinging to that, "Martial Artist" 

Let's rather call you Sport Fighter, and clear up any confusion.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Ok, must have been the magic of Hollywood I guess.



Sure thing hoss


Martial D said:


> Ok, must have been the magic of Hollywood I guess.


That gave you your education and world view? 

I'd say it must have been..


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Keep clinging to that, "Martial Artist"
> 
> Let's rather call you Sport Fighter, and clear up any confusion.



That would actually be really confusing as I'm not an MMA guy.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That would actually be really confusing as I'm not an MMA guy.


Sport fighting includes your snapping speedos, or whatever you get up to

Or is it a forum fighting art


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)




----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Aikido wasn't invented recently. It was simply modified for sport recently. So as a sport alone  its excellent. You don't put Muay Thai Boxers with Western Boxers or MMA fighters for a reason  they're different sports.
> 
> Tae Kwon Do today is a sport with roots in actual War. Making fun of the Viability of an art that was created in Ancient times not for fun but for actual necessity is just stupid.
> 
> ...


This is just factually incorrect. Aikido was invented by morihei ueshiba, and not for the purpose of sport. It came from daito ryu, which may or may not be a samurai art, so if your argument is that daito ryu has proven effectiveness, that's one thing. But no one is arguing about that, since aikido is a different art, and was not made purely for sport.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Keep clinging to that, "Martial Artist"
> 
> Let's rather call you Sport Fighter, and clear up any confusion.


Dude... he practices kung fu. Which is what you stated im another thread should be practiced...


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> And a lot of UFC fighters are from other countries. Its an American sport. So.. The silliness is America's


By that logic, the silliness is the ancient greeks, with pankration.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> No.
> 
> You're not a badass. Take that away with you


Neither are you buddy you're just some guy trying to talk tough online. In my experience the people who have to talk the most like this are the weakest


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Right. If trouble seems to follow you, it might be you.
> 
> The UFC is a Joke. Stop pretending its the example of a real warrior and the ultimate expression of being anything but guy in tight underwear trying to punch someone in the face as much as he can until his brain separates from his skull and makes him forget how to dress himself for the rest of his life
> 
> Its not even on the same page as most Martial Arts. Its creating rules where the winner is free to punch people in the face a bazillion times or teabag him into submission and nothing more


Bloody hell I haven't said a thing about the UFC to you. You don't like it good for you some people do that's that and I'm willing to bet ANY Mma fighter would kick your *** easily


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


>


It's that time again. Kids are going back to school so need an outlet for their boring lives so coming on here pretending to be experts....well he'll be banned in a few days anyway


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> This is just factually incorrect. Aikido was invented by morihei ueshiba, and not for the purpose of sport. It came from daito ryu, which may or may not be a samurai art, so if your argument is that daito ryu has proven effectiveness, that's one thing. But no one is arguing about that, since aikido is a different art, and was not made purely for sport.


So, may or may not be . Based on your quick Wikipedia research project  

And that's entirely enough for you to run your mouth about it being made up recently. 

You're not even on the same page as having anything remotely accurate or interesting to say, Wikipedia boy


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> By that logic, the silliness is the ancient greeks, with pankration.


Indeed  

Sport  

Not Martial Arts, it should really just be called sport fighting


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, may or may not be . Based on your quick Wikipedia research project
> 
> And that's entirely enough for you to run your mouth about it being made up recently.
> 
> You're not even on the same page as having anything remotely accurate or interesting to say, Wikipedia boy


Nice insult what're you 12?....actually no I think a 12 year wouldn't come out with such a lame insult....well I have a feeling you won't be here long with your attitude


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, may or may not be . Based on your quick Wikipedia research project
> 
> And that's entirely enough for you to run your mouth about it being made up recently.
> 
> You're not even on the same page as having anything remotely accurate or interesting to say, Wikipedia boy


So many assumptions. That wasnt wikipedia. I have books at my house by ueshiba, which do not in any way suggest he was interested in sport fighting. And it's fairly common knowledge it came from daito ryu. I wrote may or may not be from samurai because i genuinely don't know. But im not running my mouth, it's a straight up fact that ueshiba started aikido, and unless he went back in time that means it started in the 1900s


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Neither are you buddy you're just some guy trying to talk tough online. In my experience the people who have to talk the most like this are the weakest


I'm simply stating you're not a badass, regardless of how far you get in the UFC.

There are no badasses in ancient warrior culture. That's your little internet fanboy culture. You live in tv land. Let's just leave it at that, Fanboy.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Indeed
> 
> Sport
> 
> Not Martial Arts, it should really just be called sport fighting


It's funny you've come on here and immediately started talking trash but haven't said anything about your own experience or training....funny that isn't it


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Nice insult what're you 12?....actually no I think a 12 year wouldn't come out with such a lame insult....well I have a feeling you won't be here long with your attitude


I think your bet about him not being happy about school starting soon is right


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Indeed
> 
> Sport
> 
> Not Martial Arts, it should really just be called sport fighting


So you really should be making fun of the Canadian for being Greek then, not for being american? It sounds like you're agreeing with that but i can't tell


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> I'm simply stating you're not a badass, regardless of how far you get in the UFC.
> 
> There are no badasses in ancient warrior culture. That's your little internet fanboy culture. You live in tv land. Let's just leave it at that, Fanboy.


Wtf....what drugs have you been taking....you don't know me at all I haven't said a word to you before a few minutes ago....and frankly I don't want to know you from what I've read of you. I don't watch a lot of TV because I spend most of my spare time training...maybe you should try it sometime


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So many assumptions. That wasnt wikipedia. I have books at my house by ueshiba, which do not in any way suggest he was interested in sport fighting. And it's fairly common knowledge it came from daito ryu. I wrote may or may not be from samurai because i genuinely don't know. But im not running my mouth, it's a straight up fact that ueshiba started aikido, and unless he went back in time that means it started in the 1900s


You genuinely don't know. 

Martial arts don't get made up. They evolve. You're simply giving the credit where he wants credit given. Kudos to you for all your efforts. You have a black belt in pandering


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I think your bet about him not being happy about school starting soon is right


It's okay his homework will distract him soon enough. That 2 times table can be tricky at first lol


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You genuinely don't know.
> 
> Martial arts don't get made up. They evolve. You're simply giving the credit where he wants credit given. Kudos to you for all your efforts. You have a black belt in pandering


Yes they evolve. And new arts are formed from that evolution. In the sane way im not a primate even though i evolved from them. And insulting me isn't making fun of a gorilla.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Wtf....what drugs have you been taking....you don't know me at all I haven't said a word to you before a few minutes ago....and frankly I don't want to know you from what I've read of you. I don't watch a lot of TV because I spend most of my spare time training...maybe you should try it sometime



You're implying that because I don't know you you might be a badass  I'm telling you that you are not.

Period.

Stop trying to look like you are  you're just looking more like a troll now


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Yes they evolve. And new arts are formed from that evolution. In the sane way im not a primate even though i evolved from them. And insulting me isn't making fun of a gorilla.


That's your own fantasy world buddy.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You're implying that because I don't know you you might be a badass  I'm telling you that you are not.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Stop trying to look like you are  you're just looking more like a troll now


You're implying that he thinks he's a bad *** without knowing him. You also implied martial d was american, and that i train sportfighting (ignoring my username), and use wikipedia (which i didn't but somehow would have been an issue if i did?). You may want to slow down on your accusations until you have some sort of evidence or logic behind then


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You're implying that because I don't know you you might be a badass  I'm telling you that you are not.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Stop trying to look like you are  you're just looking more like a troll now


HAHAHAHAHAHA  thanks buddy you've really made me laugh this morning.

There's only one person here looking like a troll and it isn't me and I know I'm not a badass I'm not trying to be. You on the other hand seem so desperate to act tough it makes you look very weak which I guarantee I'm not the only one to think this


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> That's your own fantasy world buddy.


How evolution works is a fantasy world?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> You're implying that he thinks he's a bad *** without knowing him. You also implied martial d was american, and that i train sportfighting (ignoring my username), and use wikipedia (which i didn't but somehow would have been an issue if i did?). You may want to slow down on your accusations until you have some sort of evidence or logic behind then


Nah he's right I'm a secret ninja sent by the CIA to investigate illegal martial arts by these evil sport fighters,...they found me in an underground fight club beating up 10 guys at once.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> You're implying that he thinks he's a bad *** without knowing him. You also implied martial d was american, and that i train sportfighting (ignoring my username), and use wikipedia (which i didn't but somehow would have been an issue if i did?). You may want to slow down on your accusations until you have some sort of evidence or logic behind then



No  now you're just sounding like a troll  

For the 5th time, there are no badasses.

Period 

You seem to be hurt by that fact


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Nah he's right I'm a secret ninja sent by the CIA to investigate illegal martial arts by these evil sport fighters,...they found me in an underground fight club beating up 10 guys at once.


In the bathroom. With a studded leather spanker.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> No  now you're just sounding like a troll
> 
> For the 5th time, there are no badasses.
> 
> ...


Guy comes on forum. In the same day accuses at 3 longtime members of being trolls while being the only one to troll at all.

Ah you've got to love this site. I wonder if football attracts this type of people to their forums


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> No  now you're just sounding like a troll
> 
> For the 5th time, there are no badasses.
> 
> ...


Im just genuinely confused why you seem to think that we're badasses. All the lifetime you've made that accusation towards have never called themselves that on here. I can guarantee you im not one. I don't get why that's an issue


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> In the bathroom. With a studded leather spanker.


Okay mate whatever you like to fantasise about


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Im just genuinely confused why you seem to think that we're badasses. All the lifetime you've made that accusation towards have never called themselves that on here. I can guarantee you im not one. I don't get why that's an issue


Insecurity issues


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

You can be a "badass" swimmer, or runner, or UFC, or in whatever other sport you want to play.

But you're not some badass over the martial arts community because you win in the UFC. 

Just in the sports fighting community


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Okay mate whatever you like to fantasise about


The only situation you're beating 10 guys at once


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You can be a "badass" swimmer, or runner, or UFC, or in whatever other sport you want to play.
> 
> But you're not some badass over the martial arts community because you win in the UFC.
> 
> Just in the sports fighting community


Again, no one is arguing this. You're the only one bringing badassery up


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You can be a "badass" swimmer, or runner, or UFC, or in whatever other sport you want to play.
> 
> But you're not some badass over the martial arts community because you win in the UFC.
> 
> Just in the sports fighting community


What on earth are you on about seriously..,..as I far as I know there are no UFC fighters on this forum so why the hell do you keep bringing it up and the fact you called UFC a sport really shows how ignorant you are....UFC isn't a sport it's a company the sport is Mma


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> The only situation you're beating 10 guys at once


Lol


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Im just genuinely confused why you seem to think that we're badasses. All the lifetime you've made that accusation towards have never called themselves that on here. I can guarantee you im not one. I don't get why that's an issue



Spare me. Did you win the UFC title? 

Then the You there is not referring to the special you you hope it was. 

Disappointing, as English often is.


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> What on earth are you on about seriously..,..as I far as I know there are no UFC fighters on this forum so why the hell do you keep bringing it up and the fact you called UFC a sport really shows how ignorant you are....UFC isn't a sport it's a company the sport is Mma


Are there more octagons these days?

I stopped watching the sport when Hoyce Gracie was the undisputed Teabagging champion


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Spare me. Did you win the UFC title?
> 
> Then the You there is not referring to the special you you hope it was.
> 
> Disappointing, as English often is.


So everyone who has won a UFC title considers themselves a badass? Im assuming you've asked them all personally?


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Are there more octagons these days?
> 
> I stopped watching the sport when Hoyce Gracie was the undisputed Teabagging champion


Who's Hoyce never heard of him....


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So everyone who has won a UFC title considers themselves a badass? Im assuming you've asked them all personally?


This guys just have insecurity issues because these guys have achieved more in their lives than he ever will


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Who's Hoyce never heard of him....


Didn't think so.


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Didn't think so.


Yeah because there's no such person as Hoyce Gracie...there's a Royce Gracie but I guess you weren't born then so you wouldn't know


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> So everyone who has won a UFC title considers themselves a badass? Im assuming you've asked them all personally?


Really, you can drop the charade, troll.

Specifically, no, MMA is not better than Aikido or Tae Kwon Do or anything else. Its a different sport. And sport fighting in general is not comparable to ancient fighting arts.

Whether or not you believe Aikido comes from something more ancient or it was just made up by one guy in one lifetime and the earth is flat, is completely irrelevant


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah because there's no such person as Hoyce Gracie...there's a Royce Gracie but I guess you weren't born then so you wouldn't know


Mind-numbing troll


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Really, you can drop the charade, troll.
> 
> Specifically, no, MMA is not better than Aikido or Tae Kwon Do or anything else. Its a different sport. And sport fighting in general is not comparable to ancient fighting arts.
> 
> Whether or not you believe Aikido comes from something more ancient or it was just made up by one guy in one lifetime and the earth is flat, is completely irrelevant


Soo is that a no to my question? Or are you making an assumption that they also assume they are badasses, despite never watching ufc since the 90s?


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Mind-numbing troll


Lol im a troll because i got a name right. Funny guy (and not the good funny either)


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Soo is that a no to my question? Or are you making an assumption that they also assume they are badasses, despite never watching ufc since the 90s?


Nah, I just listen to all the fanboys. 

And this thread in fact addresses the same pathetic whimpering about "oh well, we have to give up all our other disciplines because MMA is better than everything". Like Walmart is better than every other store too eh


----------



## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Lol im a troll because i got a name right. Funny guy (and not the good funny either)


Royce Gracie isn't even a thing


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Nah, I just listen to all the fanboys.
> 
> And this thread in fact addresses the same pathetic whimpering about "oh well, we have to give up all our other disciplines because MMA is better than everything". Like Walmart is better than every other store too eh


Except only about 3 of the people active in this thread would consider themselves mmaists, so clearly that's not what we all think


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Except only about 3 of the people active in this thread would consider themselves mmaists, so clearly that's not what we all think


Interesting, Active boy. But the OP speaks directly to the whine


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## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Royce Gracie isn't even a thing


Lol


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Interesting, Active boy. But the OP speaks directly to the whine


Is active boy an insult? I assumed wikipedia boy and sports fighter were meant to be insults, but are you just trying to describe us?


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Is active boy an insult? I assumed wikipedia boy and sports fighter were meant to be insults, but are you just trying to describe us?


I was giving you the name and cape of your super power


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> I was giving you the name and cape of your super power


You'll have to expand on that. Still not sure if it's an insult, and if it is then i would want to at least extend you the respect of pretending to be offended. Once I understand how being active is insulting.


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

You remind me of Elroy Jetson, who was proud of being one of 3 Active people in the forum, but kind of like Wonderboy too, ready to go. Which is amusing because it was a response to the OP, but there you were, Active Boy, with your own little cape, ready for action. But it had nothing to do with the active people in the thread. So it was a hilarious juxtaposition, with you as an active user, over the seemingly forgotten background of the OP


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## Feitianwu (Aug 24, 2018)

And with your Velvet Underground quote for your signature. It just seemed suitable.


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## hoshin1600 (Aug 24, 2018)

Well before the scary, spider eating girl shows up and locks the thread and bans the troll...........
This was fun reading.


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## now disabled (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> What are you even responding to?
> 
> You see, the time traveling comes in when the aikidoka time travel back thousands of years to fight the samurai(is Tom cruise in this one?)
> 
> I assume that's how they got there as aikido wasn't founded until 1942.





The name was not founded until then but when that name was coined then was it as it is today ???

You are the informed one who has made claims of being combat effective yet have you faced combat? and I mean for real ? 

answer that or will you just resort to avoiding again ?


----------



## now disabled (Aug 24, 2018)

Martial D said:


> That would actually be really confusing as I'm not an MMA guy.




No but according to you you are combat effective and slang off recognized masters yet all you can come up with is the same again and again and again 

I think a certain countryman of yours if you visited his dojo and said Aikido ddin't work and the rest might well disagree and as you also disliked the thing I said about the shenshusei then please go say that in a dojo that is run by one or better still go say it to one of the riot police guys then two things will happen if not more ...you will see if you are and have the skills you claim as being combat effective ... you won't have to take your vid cam as you will be there first hand and most importantly you will get first hand on the job experience of what they have been taught .... 

now there is an offer for you you want things proved and you claim to be combat effective and orientated so go test it with those who are taught it specifically for that


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## jobo (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Really, you can drop the charade, troll.
> 
> Specifically, no, MMA is not better than Aikido or Tae Kwon Do or anything else. Its a different sport. And sport fighting in general is not comparable to ancient fighting arts.
> 
> Whether or not you believe Aikido comes from something more ancient or it was just made up by one guy in one lifetime and the earth is flat, is completely irrelevant


well it clearly is comparable, as we are comparing them,!!!!!.

better depends what you mean by better, mma has live fighting, that doesnt  involve breast plates, or petty rules about head punches, they are general fitter, as they have to be to be even remotely competitive.

i think you could make a case that someone who competes at say full contact karate, is equally combat ready,
if you mean the ki aspects of tma, then i have to agree, that mma isn't big on chi, and aikido would be " better" at finding inner piece


----------



## now disabled (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Royce Gracie isn't even a thing




Yes he is that you are seriously wrong on,


----------



## jobo (Aug 24, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No but according to you you are combat effective and slang off recognized masters yet all you can come up with is the same again and again and again
> 
> I think a certain countryman of yours if you visited his dojo and said Aikido ddin't work and the rest might well disagree and as you also disliked the thing I said about the shenshusei then please go say that in a dojo that is run by one or better still go say it to one of the riot police guys then two things will happen if not more ...you will see if you are and have the skills you claim as being combat effective ... you won't have to take your vid cam as you will be there first hand and most importantly you will get first hand on the job experience of what they have been taught ....
> 
> now there is an offer for you you want things proved and you claim to be combat effective and orientated so go test it with those who are taught it specifically for that


you seem to be claiming a level of moral superiority because you've been in a few war zones, whilst I'm claiming intellectual  superiority because. I was smart enough not to be in any,


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## now disabled (Aug 24, 2018)

jobo said:


> you seem to be claiming a level of moral superiority because you've been in a few war zones, whilst I'm claiming intellectual  superiority because. I was smart enough not to be in any,




I am not claiming moral anything at all


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

now disabled said:


> That I don't agree with and that is the first time I have not agreed


I've not yet found a situation where I couldn't make it extremely difficult to get a wrist lock, if I knew one was coming. Difficult to the point that it was simply a bad choice, because it took too much focus and gave me too many openings.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Not if you are good.


I can't tell which side of this you're arguing at the moment, DB, so I don't know what to disagree with.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 24, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I can't tell which side of this you're arguing at the moment, DB, so I don't know what to disagree with.



Just in general. If you are slick enough then defending doesn't matter. You still get caught.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> MMA is a sport.
> 
> Aikido has been around for thousands of years.


Aikido has been around for about 80 years, depending where you count the beginning (when he first used the name? when he first started teaching his own material?). It's based on Daito-ryu, which is arguably a few hundred years old, at best. Most likely, its recognizable form dates from about the time of Takeda Sokaku, from what I've heard.



> Today's MMA fighters are not magically tougher than every ancient martial artist or warrior
> 
> Getting angry, aggressive  and running in trying to punch someone's head off only works in a ring, when life is not on the line, and no death strikes are allowed. Its like running into battle with your balls on your face. It's easy to beat someone up when they're not allowed to simply end you, and if you're sure they're not going to be using any environmental weapons or whatever they may be carrying. Masters of Aikido could take down Samurai


Death strikes???

I can't agree with anything in that paragraph. Nothing.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Riiight
> 
> Because Americans today are the baddest warriors ever to live.
> 
> ...


Where, precisely, has anyone in this thread claimed any badassery of any kind?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Wait. We all escaped death today.
> 
> Does that mean I am a badass.


Hey, anyone who wears that gi to an MMA gym is _definitely_ a badass.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Did you though
> 
> Were you engaged in mortal combat?
> 
> ...


You have no idea, do you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, as wanker, life is a bit different than that of a warrior
> 
> Claim to be as badass as you want to be. You're not proving anything until you are engaged in mortal combat  And if you are engaged in mortal combat, you're simply lucky enough to be living after the engagement  regardless of your skill level. Nobody who lived in Feudal Japan considered themselves a badass. That title is reserved for Americans on television.


Did you, on your first day, miss the tagline of this site, by any chance?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Not sure if i'm sleep deprived or what, but i read this and started cracking up


I'm not sleep-deprived, and have had two cups of coffee. I still laughed like a hyena.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Indeed
> 
> As in, you're not.
> 
> ...


Nor, quite clearly, are most people anywhere in martial arts. Not sure why you think there are a bunch of them on the TMA side. (And before you lose you mind, I'm mostly from the TMA side.)


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> What's funny is the guy you're saying is a fake badass for being American..... is Canadian


I missed that entirely. Good catch!


----------



## jobo (Aug 24, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I am not claiming moral anything at all


your waffeling on and on about. War zones and riots you've been in, as if these give you some,deep insight in to the effectiveness or otherwise of aikido and that they give you superiority over those you claim would run, in such a situation, I'm proud to say, I'm a runner,in fact I'm a not going in the first placer


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Right. If trouble seems to follow you, it might be you.
> 
> The UFC is a Joke. Stop pretending its the example of a real warrior and the ultimate expression of being anything but guy in tight underwear trying to punch someone in the face as much as he can until his brain separates from his skull and makes him forget how to dress himself for the rest of his life
> 
> Its not even on the same page as most Martial Arts. Its creating rules where the winner is free to punch people in the face a bazillion times or teabag him into submission and nothing more


You don't understand sport, or the usefulness of competition in training, do you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Dude... he practices kung fu. Which is what you stated im another thread should be practiced...


Bazinga!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> So, may or may not be . Based on your quick Wikipedia research project
> 
> And that's entirely enough for you to run your mouth about it being made up recently.
> 
> You're not even on the same page as having anything remotely accurate or interesting to say, Wikipedia boy


Based upon actual knowledge, from people with actual knowledge of the art. Which you sadly obviously lack.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> I'm simply stating you're not a badass, regardless of how far you get in the UFC.
> 
> There are no badasses in ancient warrior culture. That's your little internet fanboy culture. You live in tv land. Let's just leave it at that, Fanboy.


So, then, why did you introduce the term? Nobody was talking badassery until you showed up. Seems you have an obsession with the word, and with the UFC.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> It's funny you've come on here and immediately started talking trash but haven't said anything about your own experience or training....funny that isn't it


Sad, not funny. Predictable.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> You're implying that he thinks he's a bad *** without knowing him. You also implied martial d was american, and that i train sportfighting (ignoring my username), and use wikipedia (which i didn't but somehow would have been an issue if i did?). You may want to slow down on your accusations until you have some sort of evidence or logic behind then


Bah, information is overrated, KD!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Guy comes on forum. In the same day accuses at 3 longtime members of being trolls while being the only one to troll at all.
> 
> Ah you've got to love this site. I wonder if football attracts this type of people to their forums


Nope. Not enough badasses there.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> The only situation you're beating 10 guys at once


You don't understand sarcasm, do you? Dictionary.com - The world’s favorite online dictionary!


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Mind-numbing troll


So, you don't know, do you?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> Royce Gracie isn't even a thing


You get more amusing when you try to "fact".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You remind me of Elroy Jetson, who was proud of being one of 3 Active people in the forum, but kind of like Wonderboy too, ready to go. Which is amusing because it was a response to the OP, but there you were, Active Boy, with your own little cape, ready for action. But it had nothing to do with the active people in the thread. So it was a hilarious juxtaposition, with you as an active user, over the seemingly forgotten background of the OP


You're less funny when you think you're being funny. Go back to "facting".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Well before the scary, spider eating girl shows up and locks the thread and bans the troll...........
> This was fun reading.


I was just thinking that, myself, Hoshin. Any time now, I'm going to have to close this browser tab.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

now disabled said:


> The name was not founded until then but when that name was coined then was it as it is today ???
> 
> You are the informed one who has made claims of being combat effective yet have you faced combat? and I mean for real ?
> 
> answer that or will you just resort to avoiding again ?


ND, you're really starting to rant on this one, man.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 24, 2018)

drop bear said:


> Just in general. If you are slick enough then defending doesn't matter. You still get caught.


In general, sure. I was speaking to the idea of saying "put a wrist lock on me". If I know a wrist lock is the point, and the only point, it's going to become a poor option. I can easily (unless the person outclasses me tremendously) prevent most of them or at least make them too hard to be worth the trouble. If they take me down (like a cop cuffing someone), they can do more, because they have ground leverage and I don't have movement. But just getting a wrist lock when I know it's what they're going to do? I'd need to experience that.

Now, if what you mean is using stuff to get to the lock (strikes, takedowns, etc.), then I'm with you. And maybe that was your point.


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

now disabled said:


> No but according to you you are combat effective and slang off recognized masters yet all you can come up with is the same again and again and again
> 
> I think a certain countryman of yours if you visited his dojo and said Aikido ddin't work and the rest might well disagree and as you also disliked the thing I said about the shenshusei then please go say that in a dojo that is run by one or better still go say it to one of the riot police guys then two things will happen if not more ...you will see if you are and have the skills you claim as being combat effective ... you won't have to take your vid cam as you will be there first hand and most importantly you will get first hand on the job experience of what they have been taught ....
> 
> now there is an offer for you you want things proved and you claim to be combat effective and orientated so go test it with those who are taught it specifically for that



There's that stellar reading comprehension again. That would be the 5th time youve lied about something I said in this thread. Maybe you should step away from the forums for a while until your basic literacy skills are up to snuff?

I have never claimed to be 'combat effective'. As I said before, if you are going to claim I said something, quote it, as you haven't gotten one right yet 

As an aside...what's the range on your no touch aikido anyway? Yesterday I slipped in training. Was that you?


----------



## oftheherd1 (Aug 24, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> That's what I was talking about when you jumped into the conversation. The argument was that Aikido underperforms in a ring environment with rules because Aikido has dangerous techniques. My counter argument is that several martial arts (including MMA) have dangerous techniques. So, we're back to the original question; Why is Aikido at a disadvantage in a controlled environment?



Saying Aikido " ... underperforms in a ring environment because it has dangerous techniques.' wasn't quite the way I understood what had been said, or I missed it.  This thread is now up to 19 pages.  Goodness knows what I may have missed or just plain misunderstood.

If I understand Aikido, it isn't just that it will have dangerous techniques.  As you correctly pointed out, other, in fact probably all martial have dangerous techniques.  But probably more along the line of say Hapkido:  You can't just let loose and flow into a technique in response to an attack.  In sport competition if you constantly injure your opponents you will soon run out of opponents; therefore there are rules.  Some martial arts won't function as well under rules designed to reduce the amount of injuries.

I don't know if I am explaining that right.  Does it make sense to you?


----------



## Martial D (Aug 24, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Saying Aikido " ... underperforms in a ring environment because it has dangerous techniques.' wasn't quite the way I understood what had been said, or I missed it.  This thread is now up to 19 pages.  Goodness knows what I may have missed or just plain misunderstood.
> 
> If I understand Aikido, it isn't just that it will have dangerous techniques.  As you correctly pointed out, other, in fact probably all martial have dangerous techniques.  But probably more along the line of say Hapkido:  You can't just let loose and flow into a technique in response to an attack.  In sport competition if you constantly injure your opponents you will soon run out of opponents; therefore there are rules.  Some martial arts won't function as well under rules designed to reduce the amount of injuries.
> 
> I don't know if I am explaining that right.  Does it make sense to you?


I would say if martial art doesn't have 'dangerous techniques' , it's not much of a martial art at all.

Even pro wrestling has dangerous techniques, but is it a martial art if it requires cooperation from the other guy to work? Hmm .


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You genuinely don't know.
> 
> Martial arts don't get made up. They evolve. You're simply giving the credit where he wants credit given. Kudos to you for all your efforts. You have a black belt in pandering


So if martial Arts evolve, by your logic, modern mma is the most evolved.  In this metaphor, older martial Arts are like Neanderthal to the mma.  Personally, I think your metaphor is limited but i appreciate that uou are saying yhe opposite of what you intend .   

But still. You're doing great.  Get some sleep and hit the thread fresh.  You got this.


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Yes they evolve. And new arts are formed from that evolution. In the sane way im not a primate even though i evolved from them. And insulting me isn't making fun of a gorilla.


Ah you went there too.  This thread is like Netflix .  I juat cant keep up when the entire season is posted at once.   A lot of content to sort through .


----------



## Steve (Aug 24, 2018)

Feitianwu said:


> You're implying that because I don't know you you might be a badass  I'm telling you that you are not.
> 
> Period.
> 
> Stop trying to look like you are  you're just looking more like a troll now


personally i agree with you and have been looking for something more.... Badass...  I don't know.   Just something real.  Can you help me?   Where can I go for some legit training?


----------



## Dirty Dog (Aug 24, 2018)

Thread locked.


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