# what do you think of Piper?



## xfighter88

So i randomly ran across a piper knife video on you tube. Any thoughts on this system? I have dome some escrima but not enough to have an informed opinion of differing knife systems.


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## jks9199

I'm skeptical on their claims.  There's a couple of threads about them if you search around.  

But, hey, they train pretty hard.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Like Jks9199 I am skeptical of their claims as well.  Still I have no first hand experience with them so until then it is hard to base a solid opinion.


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## K831

This thread made me curious so I cruised over to youtube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6MbpWBZqoA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JPIUhrD_yac&feature=related

I don't get it. It looks ridiculous to me. I don't see the angles, checks, range or anything that would make me think it was functional. I think it is hilarious that they throw the knife from hand to hand... That's the kind of thing you pray someone will do when attacking you with a knife. Not to mention the tracking their inner forearms with the blade...someone with a little speed and sensitivity may help that knife hit that forearm after that many rolls in a row. 

Now, to be fair, I just saw some quick clips, but I gotta say, not impressed so far.


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## lklawson

K831 said:


> I think it is hilarious that they throw the knife from hand to hand...


Throw?  I haven't seen the clips yet (net nannied - I'll have to SmartPhone them later).  Are they actually letting go of the knife, getting "air time" transferring it from hand to hand?

I know that there are several knife styles which transfer hands such as Spanish Navaja, but they always use a positive grip transfer.

I'm really curious now.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

OK, having seen several clips now, I have to say that it seems all right to me.

They don't seem to use an angle system but, instead, appear to use a targeting system.

Part of their strategy seems to be "get in close and stab 'em a whole bunch."  While I don't like that particular strategy, it *is* a valid one.

On the subject of the unsecured hand transfers.  What can I say?  I don't like it.  Maybe it works for them.  I have seen drills in other knife systems that are designed to facilitate building skills in this particular style of hand switch.  But in those cases, the instructor was very clear that it was not his preferred method of hand switch.  There's no way of knowing if that is the case in this clip or not.

In several of the clips I saw there were clear checks, stops, and passes, sometimes with the empty ("live") hand and sometimes with the weapon forearm.

What I saw of the footwork seems to be mostly centered around entering to "close range" (not quite clinch) and range is apparently controlled by controlling the opponent's orientation and weapon bearing limb though checks and "defang" type draw slashes and stabs.

While a bunch of youtube clips aren't necessarily representative, I have to say that, for the most part, I don't see anything worth major complaints and, personally, will take a "with-hold judgment" stance on the system until such time as I meet someone with training in it.  

Bear in mind that there's a lot of really crappy stuff out there (even on youtube) being passed off for FMA, Western knife, etc.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## xfighter88

Thanks guys this has been a helpful thread to me. It is mostly acedemic for me anyway because I don't live near anyone who actually knows what they are doing with this stuff. It seems to be confined to South Africa for the time being.


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## MJS

IIRC, there was at least one person on here that was involved in the system, but they seemed to have vanished, so.....

Anyways...like it was already said, I really dont like to base my opinion of an art off of a youtube clip, but if I were to, well, what I saw wasn't really that impressive, compared to knife stuff that I've seen in the FMAs.


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## Brian R. VanCise

MJS said:


> IIRC, there was at least one person on here that was involved in the system, but they seemed to have vanished, so.....
> 
> Anyways...like it was already said, I really dont like to base my opinion of an art off of a youtube clip, but if I were to, well, what I saw wasn't really that impressive, compared to knife stuff that I've seen in the FMAs.



Yes it is almost impossible to judge some thing entirely off of youtube clips.


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## sgtmac_46

Well........the reality is that it should be useful in stabbing an unarmed person with your knife.  If that's the goal, it should work fine.  Of course it's not really that difficult to stab an unarmed person with a knife, so lots of 'systems' should work for that purpose.....even bad ones.....not sure what else it's useful for, I haven't seen an underlying 'system' that applies beyond that, but it could be there......i'm just not impressed.

With the FMA's, there is an underlying whole, that i'm apparently missing with this system.........it appears to be mostly a bunch of hand movements designed to look random, while allowing the knifer to stab a (presumably unarmed) opponent.

I would be very surprised if this could be pulled off very often without cutting oneself severely with a live blade.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6MbpWBZqoA&feature=related


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## Erik Petermann

Hi guys

My name is Erik Petermann, I'm a Master Guardian of Piper (senior instructor) here in Cape Town, I helped put together the Piper sylabus in the mid nineties after learning the art from Nigel February and his first student, Lloyd de Jongh (the guy who was previously active here).

A few points in response to this discussion. The clip you mentioned featuring Lloyd. Check out my website for more details (piperknife.com). You need to take into consideration that Piper is a stabbing system, the cheap crappy Okapi throw away knives used by the criminals have a blade you can slide up and down on without cutting yourself. Piper rips with the point or stabs, that's pretty much it...this transfers well to star screwdrivers or even metal pens. Yes, I also might be a little wary of doing some of the more advanced movements with a razor sharp, double edged combat knife.

The fact that folks often kinda scratch their head is our own fault. Releasing just a few 30 second clips makes it difficult for others to "scan" our art correctly. That's in the past, though.

Re the transfer from hand to hand. There are four basic transfers, only one of these features airtime and I teach that as a dexterity exercise only. In my opinion anyone teaching such airtime passing as a "combat technique" is being irresponsible towards his students. Although, as I say in my book, Nigel might just be able to pull it off...doesn't mean I would even want to try or to teach it as such.

There is a lot of body movement in Piper and a lot of distractions, you would, for instance, swop fom hand to other hand just prior to attacking by doing a bit of a body turn first, so the enemy only realises that its now in the other hand when the knife is already heading for him.

Thank you for the fair and non judgemental tone of the responses on this thread, it speaks highly of the respondees courtesy and character.
Any questions you might have, please feel free to ask! For more info, please have a look at my piperknife site. I am looking forward to learning more from the people here and also to sharing what I may have learnt in my forty years as a student of the arts.

Regards from a sun-drenched Cape Town
Erik Petermann


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Erik,

Glad to have you here and we would all love to learn more about Piper!


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## jks9199

In one of those weird coincidences of the universe, Steve Perry (author of The Matador books, among many others), wrote a review of a book on Piper today, too.

Thanks for posting info about your system, Erik.  I hope you'll share some more!


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## K831

Erik, great response. 

You took my (our) criticisms/thoughts in stride and touched on each in your answer. Thank you. 

I look forward to hearing more about the system than a couple of 30 second clips provide.


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## Erik Petermann

Good morning, gentlemen

Thank you for your positive feedback, everyone.

 jks9199, yes, I am very thankful to Mr. Perry for the well-balanced and positive review he did of my e book. Thank you, also, for putting up the link to that. 

I will of course never be able to completely forgive him for so ruthlessly killing off the "Peepah" exponent in his excellent "Musashi Flex" ...big smile. If you havn't read that one or his other martial arts based novels, you might enjoy them...I have reread my copies several times.

K831: Criticism is good, I feel, if it shows thought, analysis and engagement. The level of discussion here shows me a collection of my peers, not 17 year olds taking a break from Modern Warfare Two and spouting off a little.

Previously, in our eagerness to show Piper to the world, we made some mistakes. Only a few clips of 30 seconds on Youtube WILL lead to guesswork and misunderstandings. That's why I wrote the book and will hopefully be doing a companion DVD, one of these days.

Also, our emphasis on Piper's deadliness and realistic background tended to antagonise folks. Intent plus a pointy metal object is enough to make someone or some system deadly, so what...smile. When I read the posts here, I can see that there is obviously more than one way to peel the "knife-apple"...

I hope to learn something here and, yes, I do hope to spread the word about Piper, as I mentioned before I personally feel that the Piper dynamics would transfer well to a metal pen and thus to civilian self defense.

As for questions, I will gladly answer any you might have, whether here on the forum or if you send them to me by e mail. 

Thanks again and all the best


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## lklawson

Erik Petermann said:


> You need to take into consideration that Piper is a stabbing system, the cheap crappy Okapi throw away knives used by the criminals have a blade you can slide up and down on without cutting yourself.


The Okapi I bought (online) seems a fair quality to me.  The steel is decent high carbon and takes a good edge and seems to keep it fairly well.  The wood is attractive and, over all, the spanish clasp-knife inspired design is functional.  I rather like it actually.  Maybe the Okapis sold to locals are lower quality and they send "the good stuff" out to Americans with more money than sense, I dunno.  At first I didn't like the flat-sided, one-side grind.  But after carrying it for a few years I've decided that it gives the blade a certain character that other ethnic blades lack.  It's unique and doesn't detract from the functionality.



> Piper rips with the point or stabs, that's pretty much it...this transfers well to star screwdrivers or even metal pens.


That's very interesting.  I can see the sense of systemizing around that.  Not my cup-o-tea but there is a definite method to the madness.



> Re the transfer from hand to hand. There are four basic transfers, only one of these features airtime and I teach that as a dexterity exercise only. In my opinion anyone teaching such airtime passing as a "combat technique" is being irresponsible towards his students. Although, as I say in my book, Nigel might just be able to pull it off...doesn't mean I would even want to try or to teach it as such.


I was hoping it was something like that.  It's what I've seen in other systems: more of a drill-skill than a combat-skill.



> There is a lot of body movement in Piper and a lot of distractions, you would, for instance, swop fom hand to other hand just prior to attacking by doing a bit of a body turn first, so the enemy only realises that its now in the other hand when the knife is already heading for him.


Such is the reasoning I've seen presented in other systems which advocate or teach a hand pass.

Thanks for giving us the input.  I'm looking forward to some future day when I can work with a Piper guy and get a better idea and make a better judgment. 

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Erik Petermann

Hi there, lklawson

I have enjoyed reading your various posts and you have clearly put a lot of thought into these topics. 

So, if you like, send me an e mail adress and I'll send you a complimentary copy of my e book...I have a feeling you might find it an interesting read (and before anyone brings out a hatchet, it ain't "marketing" when you're giving it away for free...smile).

All the best
Erik


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## Dwight McLemore

Erick:   I certainly enjoyed those clips, definitely gets one to thinking beyound the common angles that many of us grew up learning......Somewhere in the past I remember seeing similar techniques but I can't  remember who showed them. Oh well......good job.

Best
Dwight


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## frank raud

I had an opportunity yesterday to see a little of the piper system(via someone who makes no claims to expertise in the system). I found it very difficult to gauge where the knife was, the hand transfers were done in an effective and efficient manner, the "hummingbird" technique makes figuring out the angles very difficult. I tried out my limited knife fighting knowledge against this, and was definitely on the losing end more often than not.


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## Hawke

*Piper Knife Technique - The Slipstream*

Bobbe Edmonds demonstrating some knife work

*[yt]L54s2fUDfVA[/yt]
*


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## shane

There is  many  of body  action  in Piper and  many  of  disruptions,  you would, for  example,  swop fom hand to other hand just  former  to  striking  by doing a bit of a body turn first, so the  foe  only  appreciates  that its now in the other hand when the  blade  is  currently  heading for him.


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## lklawson

shane said:


> There is  many  of body  action  in Piper and  many  of  disruptions,  you would, for  example,  swop fom hand to other hand just  former  to  striking  by doing a bit of a body turn first, so the  foe  only  appreciates  that its now in the other hand when the  blade  is  currently  heading for him.


Are you saying that it is a standard practice to do a body-shift as a method of misdirection (similar to "slight-of-hand" prestidigitation) when swapping the knife from one hand to the other with the intention of having the opponent focus on the now empty hand where the knife formerly was held so that the hand which now holds the knife will not be noticed and so can strike home?

If so, I agree that this is a standard technique within knife fighting styles which teach hand switches.

Or did I misunderstand you?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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