# 2nd blue tip on my black belt



## Michael89 (Apr 13, 2014)

I took black belt test first time in 2 years and I passed last Friday (April 11,2014) only 5 more test till i become 2nd dan black belt. test is every two month.


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## Takai (Apr 13, 2014)

Congrats.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 13, 2014)

Ahh the tests between tests, $$$$$$ bilking students.


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## Carol (Apr 13, 2014)

I'm a little confused by this.  Now granted, I've never achieved any rank of significance so I do not know what it is like to be a black belt in any system.

I thought once a student achieved a first degree black belt in an art, they demonstrated that they had the capabilities to begin their journey to 2nd degree black without all the intermediary steps required for either pedagogical or motivational reasons.  My impression was this is one of the delineations between the yudansha and mudansha.  Isn't this also one of the reasons why being a 1st degree black belt is like being a white belt all over again?


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 13, 2014)

Carol said:


> I'm a little confused by this.  Now granted, I've never achieved any rank of significance so I do not know what it is like to be a black belt in any system.
> 
> I thought once a student achieved a first degree black belt in an art, they demonstrated that they had the capabilities to begin their journey to 2nd degree black without all the intermediary steps required for either pedagogical or motivational reasons.  My impression was this is one of the delineations between the yudansha and mudansha.  Isn't this also one of the reasons why being a 1st degree black belt is like being a white belt all over again?


One of two things are happening here. Either they have the black belt requirements all laid out for each level of black, as my particular group does, or it is a way of cleaning up the motion of their existing black belts. Either way, I don't see the problem. Short term goals rock; however, It does keep you feeding from the trough, and as Carol indicated, you are supposed to have been fed. LOL


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## arnisador (Apr 13, 2014)

Every group does it differently! I don't "test" per se. I have a small group and work several times with each student each class. When they're ready, I just promote them.


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## jks9199 (Apr 13, 2014)

Carol said:


> I'm a little confused by this.  Now granted, I've never achieved any rank of significance so I do not know what it is like to be a black belt in any system.
> 
> I thought once a student achieved a first degree black belt in an art, they demonstrated that they had the capabilities to begin their journey to 2nd degree black without all the intermediary steps required for either pedagogical or motivational reasons.  My impression was this is one of the delineations between the yudansha and mudansha.  Isn't this also one of the reasons why being a 1st degree black belt is like being a white belt all over again?



Depends on the system, sometimes on the age of the black belt in question, the program or school... and in my more cynical moments, the size of the school owner's boat payment...

Don't see a major problem with it -- unless it's because of that last reason.


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## Michael89 (Apr 13, 2014)

each dojang are different and I just have the black belt requirements all laid out for each level of black. My grandmaster use color tips after you get first dan black belt. He is 4nd dan in Shito-ryu karate during his time in Japan but is 9th dan in Kukki-taekwondo and Jido Kwan. well next week, I will get to learn how to use Sai weapons.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 13, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I took black belt test first time in 2 years and I passed last Friday (April 11,2014) only 5 more test till i become 2nd dan black belt. test is every two month.



Congratulations.  

I wouldn't be too concerned about some of the comments above.  You know how good your school is and how much you are actually learning.  

While some of us aren't in favor of schools that appear to give out rank too quickly, or appear to have more tests that necessary, from your post we can't determine for sure if that is the case.  If you are happy, continue studying and getting better.


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## Michael89 (Apr 13, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> Congratulations.
> 
> I wouldn't be too concerned about some of the comments above.  You know how good your school is and how much you are actually learning.
> 
> While some of us aren't in favor of schools that appear to give out rank too quickly, or appear to have more tests that necessary, from your post we can't determine for sure if that is the case.  If you are happy, continue studying and getting better.



thanks, thats mean alot to me. I think every 8 week will be enough time for me to train if i'm not ready then I won't take it then. its took me 4 years to earn my black belt (only because I missed out the tests due to sick or family issues) I remember the time my friend(hes the best at what he do) offered me to join other taekwondo dojang and earn black belt in year. I turned that offer down because I didn't like what i saw in there in 07. plus that dojang closed 3 years ago.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 14, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I took black belt test first time in 2 years and I passed last Friday (April 11,2014) only 5 more test till i become 2nd dan black belt. test is every two month.



While I don't personally care for the constant testing and stars and stripes and bars and bands on belts, especially for the yudanja, it's certainly common enough in commercial schools. The bills have to be paid, and this is one way to do it. Unless the fees/test structure is a secret, it's up to you to decide if what you're getting from the program is worth what you're paying. 

Congrats on your test.



Rumy73 said:


> Ahh the tests between tests, $$$$$$ bilking students.



And from his post you know enough about his school to accuse his instructors of being thieves? Seems a bit strong, considering that you really can't possibly know that much about his program.



Michael89 said:


> thanks, thats mean alot to me. I think every 8 week will be enough time for me to train if i'm not ready then I won't take it then. its took me 4 years to earn my black belt (only because I missed out the tests due to sick or family issues) I remember the time my friend(hes the best at what he do) offered me to join other taekwondo dojang and earn black belt in year. I turned that offer down because I didn't like what i saw in there in 07. plus that dojang closed 3 years ago.



Time to rank is another one of those things that varies wildly. In our program, average time to 1st Dan is 6-8 years. It really depends on just what exactly "1st Dan" means in your system.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 14, 2014)

I'd like to offer up the possibility that one motive for the "check-up" tests between dans is to help make sure a student is consistently training.

It's also a way to break up a dan test fee into smaller parts to make it more manageable for the student (or if you're a cynic, a way to hide the true cost of promotion).

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 14, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'd like to offer up the possibility that one motive for the "check-up" tests between dans is to help make sure a student is consistently training.



We do that the same way we do it for the colored belts. By watching them in class. 



Jaeimseu said:


> It's also a way to break up a dan test fee into smaller parts to make it more manageable for the student (or if you're a cynic, a way to hide the true cost of promotion).
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



Sort of a layaway plan for your belt. I could see that.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'd like to offer up the possibility that one motive for the "check-up" tests between dans is to help make sure a student is consistently training.
> 
> It's also a way to break up a dan test fee into smaller parts to make it more manageable for the student (or if you're a cynic, a way to hide the true cost of promotion).
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



Again, what are monthly dues for? Again what is the walloping $600 plus bb for? For god's sake, a student who is going to class should be checked on already. It is bilking plain and simple. Once a person realizes  the ma is not about belts, and gets over the ego of the bb, the better he will be. And lots of money saved. You of all ppl should know the kkw does not require these "tests" and that it is purely commercial.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 14, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Again, what are monthly dues for? Again what is the walloping $600 plus bb for? For god's sake, a student who is going to class should be checked on already. It is bilking plain and simple. Once a person realizes  the ma is not about belts, and gets over the ego of the bb, the better he will be. And lots of money saved. You of all ppl should know the kkw does not require these "tests" and that it is purely commercial.



Kkw doesn't require them, true enough. Our dojang uses these types of tests, though. It gives people something to work for, it reminds them that they are being evaluated, it keeps them in front of other students and demonstrates what they will be capable of in the future.

We don't charge $600 for promotion, however. 

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## sfs982000 (Apr 14, 2014)

Congrats!


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## WaterGal (Apr 14, 2014)

Congrats!  Good luck on your journey to 2nd dan.

Doing mini-tests between dan rankings gets a lot of complaints from some people, but I think it has it's place, especially if your dan curriculum and test includes more than what KKW requires, which I think is pretty common.  Having smaller goals to meet every few months is a good way to help motivate people and track their progress.  Even if theoretically somebody who's reached 1st dan shouldn't need that, and maybe they don't _need _need it, it can help.  Anyway, if it makes you happy and works for you, don't worry about it.


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## Michael89 (Apr 14, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Congrats!  Good luck on your journey to 2nd dan.
> 
> Doing mini-tests between dan rankings gets a lot of complaints from some people, but I think it has it's place, especially if your dan curriculum and test includes more than what KKW requires, which I think is pretty common.  Having smaller goals to meet every few months is a good way to help motivate people and track their progress.  Even if theoretically somebody who's reached 1st dan shouldn't need that, and maybe they don't _need _need it, it can help.  Anyway, if it makes you happy and works for you, don't worry about it.



I learn that now and I didn't mean to start debate in here..damn lol. i always thought color tips was part of Japanese black belt system which my grandmaster have 4th black belt in Shito Ryu Karate during his time in Japan. he also have 9th dan in KKW _and_ Jido Kwan(he been taking taekwondo since age of 14 in 1955 and he is from South Korea.) I learned how to use Bo staff and I will learn how to use sai weapon, i know that most TKD Dojang doesn't teach weapons. he teaches Taeguk and palgwe poomses, up on 2nd dan black belt he will teach ITF forms which i can't wait to learn and he also teach hapkido part of self defense system. test fee isn't much, i only take test when I'm ready. unlike other dojang where I live in that close down 3 years ago. I really don't like that "Master" because I felt like he shot me down for lack of knowledge about "Kwans" he yells at his students, will strip of their rank if he/she forget one techquenes. that school doesn't teach alot much compares to dojang i go to. I enjoy it, I learn alot. it saved my life few time.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 14, 2014)

Is there a fee, beyond the normal tuition, associated with the mini-Dan tests?  This is aimed at the OP, but could also go for anyone that does/has this practice in their school.  If so, how much is the fee and how many mini tests are there before the next Dan level.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is there a fee, beyond the normal tuition, associated with the mini-Dan tests?  This is aimed at the OP, but could also go for anyone that does/has this practice in their school.  If so, how much is the fee and how many mini tests are there before the next Dan level.



Ksd, 

Typically, a student pays monthly dues, and in addition, mini test fees and then bb dan test. Usually there are 1 to 8 (sometimes 10) of these mini tests.  Some schools try to claim that the mini tests also include "weapons training." While it is well and good that a student learns staff, nunchucks, et cetera, why is it costing more? The simple answer is that people are so into getting a bb and have come so far, they usually suck it up and pay.  The mini tests have nothing to do with anything set forth by the kkw. Their only guideline is for time in class at each dan level followed by a successfully completed test, which is reasonable.  Somewhere along the way, a dojo owner decided each bb level could be subdivided and a mini tests issued. Just like the way regular belts have been subdivided with strips.  While there is a reasonable argument to made about giving students short term goals, this position is both subverted and perverted by the actual cost of it all.  I continue to ask and none of these folks defend schools with such models have ever had a cogent retort to my basic question: what do monthly dues cover? If one is attending class and learning reasonably, why are there these paid mini-check ins? It is about money. It is shameful, really, because when a student has reached the level bb, a huge investment on many levels has been made.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 15, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is there a fee, beyond the normal tuition, associated with the mini-Dan tests?  This is aimed at the OP, but could also go for anyone that does/has this practice in their school.  If so, how much is the fee and how many mini tests are there before the next Dan level.



Anyone?


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## Archtkd (Apr 15, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Anyone?



Our dojang does not do that, and in more than 25 years that I have practiced Kukkiwon style taekwondo I've never had/or been asked to do such in between dan tests. If testing fees comprises a significant portion of a dojang's revenue, in between dan testing, is one of the ways to increase that revenue, especially if the dojang has a high number of blacbelts. I have seen q number of Kukkiwon/WTF styles doing the in between dan tests, but ironically most of those dojangs do not actually recomment thier members for Kukkuwin dan/poom certification.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is there a fee, beyond the normal tuition, associated with the mini-Dan tests?  This is aimed at the OP, but could also go for anyone that does/has this practice in their school.  If so, how much is the fee and how many mini tests are there before the next Dan level.



There are a number of KKW TKD schools in this area that have the mini-tests. A friend studies at one of them, and they do not pay a fee for the mini-tests. I do not know about the others.
The closest we come to these mini-tests is when a student (of any rank) asks if they're ready to promote. If there is doubt, we will pull the senior students present up front to judge and do a brief mini-test, then give opinions and offer suggestions on what needs to be improved prior to promoting.


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## oftheherd1 (Apr 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Ksd,
> 
> Typically, a student pays monthly dues, and in addition, mini test fees and then bb dan test. Usually there are 1 to 8 (sometimes 10) of these mini tests.  Some schools try to claim that the mini tests also include "weapons training." While it is well and good that a student learns staff, nunchucks, et cetera, why is it costing more? The simple answer is that people are so into getting a bb and have come so far, they usually suck it up and pay.  The mini tests have nothing to do with anything set forth by the kkw. Their only guideline is for time in class at each dan level followed by a successfully completed test, which is reasonable.  *Somewhere along the way, a dojo owner decided each bb level could be subdivided and a mini tests issued. Just like the way regular belts have been subdivided with strips.  While there is a reasonable argument to made about giving students short term goals, this position is both subverted and perverted by the actual cost of it all.*  I continue to ask and none of these folks defend schools with such models have ever had a cogent retort to my basic question: what do monthly dues cover? If one is attending class and learning reasonably, why are there these paid mini-check ins? It is about money. It is shameful, really, because when a student has reached the level bb, a huge investment on many levels has been made.



It must have been a long time ago.  When I studied  under Jhoon Goo Rhee in the mid-60s, we paid a monthly fee and for each test.  I don't recall the amounts, but I think all of us felt it was reasonable.  That was for colored belts.  I never achieved black belt so I don't know if their fee structure was different.

When I studied Hapkido in Korea, it was the same.  I seem to remember monthly fees were $30 or maybe $35.  I don't recall what the colored belt tests were.  The black belt practice test was $50 and the actual black belt test at the Korean Hapkido Association was $100.  There you were tested by a panel of Grand Masters from other schools.



Kong Soo Do said:


> Anyone?



See above.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 15, 2014)

oftheherd1 said:


> It must have been a long time ago.  When I studied  under Jhoon Goo Rhee in the mid-60s, we paid a monthly fee and for each test.  I don't recall the amounts, but I think all of us felt it was reasonable.  That was for colored belts.  I never achieved black belt so I don't know if their fee structure was different.
> 
> When I studied Hapkido in Korea, it was the same.  I seem to remember monthly fees were $30 or maybe $35.  I don't recall what the colored belt tests were.  The black belt practice test was $50 and the actual black belt test at the Korean Hapkido Association was $100.  There you were tested by a panel of Grand Masters from other schools.
> 
> ...



In the DC region, monthly fees are about $100, $80 for mini dan tests and typically $600 for first dan and increasing in cost thereafter.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> There are a number of KKW TKD schools in this area that have the mini-tests. A friend studies at one of them, and they do not pay a fee for the mini-tests.



I see this as not only quite reasonable, but desirable.  Although a Dan level student may not _need_ little slices of encouragement, short term goals are always a good thing to have.  Not having to pay additional funds for this service is, imo, commendable on the part of those schools.


> The closest we come to these mini-tests is when a student (of any rank) asks if they're ready to promote. If there is doubt, we will pull the senior students present up front to judge and do a brief mini-test, then give opinions and offer suggestions on what needs to be improved prior to promoting.



That is excellent and really offers a sense of community within the school.  Good practice!


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> In the DC region, monthly fees are about $100, $80 for mini dan tests and typically $600 for first dan and increasing in cost thereafter.



DC is an expensive area. Expensive to live, expensive to run a business. The schools there have to pay the bills, and I suspect the instructors are fond of things like eating, sleeping indoors, and maybe even driving a car. Nobody forces you to go to their school.

Since you seem to be convinced that these fees are excessive (I don't know if they are or are not, since I've never tried to run a commercial enterprise in that area), I have to wonder why you're not telling us about the school you've opened, and how you're getting rich by charging lower fees than all the competitors and stealing all their students.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> In the DC region, monthly fees are about $100, $80 for mini dan tests and typically $600 for first dan and increasing in cost thereafter.



Are these KKW schools?  I can see the monthly fee of $100.  That's pretty comparable to what I've seen in my area.  I don't have an issue with that in a commercial school.  Colored belt tests, last I checked around (many years ago) was pretty standard at $50. 

I heard about many people, some I know personally, that paid quite a bit of money for a BB test.  $600 isn't the highest, but is, imo, too much money for a piece of paper.  Now in full disclosure, I've never paid for any test I've taken, nor do I in turn charge for any test I administer.  And that is when I had a school.  That's just me.  If this is a KKW school we're talking about, they ask, IIRC, $85 for a first Dan certificate.  So we're looking at $515 mark up.  Considering that the student has paid a monthly tuition for perhaps 2-3 years in addition to colored belt tests (perhaps 5-10) I would say they've invested a substantial amount of money already to the school.  To charge and additional $500+ (or more) is something I don't find reasonable.  I could perhaps see matching the KKW price (or whatever org we're talking about).  

Is it bilking?  Well, hopefully the student was smart enough to find out up front how much things would cost.  If not, then it is on them.  If they're willing to pay that kind of money then so be it.  Some people attach quality to a dollar amount, some do not.  Some perhaps don't realize that careful shopping may provide the same level of service for less investment.  And to be fair, location is part of the equation.  Some places may not provide a choice.  In my area there are a plethora of TKD schools (just checked the local YP which revealed over five pages of schools not counting YMCA's and community centers).  Some folks may not have such options.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> DC is an expensive area. Expensive to live, expensive to run a business. The schools there have to pay the bills, and I suspect the instructors are fond of things like eating, sleeping indoors, and maybe even driving a car. Nobody forces you to go to their school.
> 
> Since you seem to be convinced that these fees are excessive (I don't know if they are or are not, since I've never tried to run a commercial enterprise in that area), I have to wonder why you're not telling us about the school you've opened, and how you're getting rich by charging lower fees than all the competitors and stealing all their students.



Clearly you are  trying to start something and then hide behind your admin status, would you cut the nonsense already.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Clearly you are  trying to start something and then hide behind your admin status, would you cut the nonsense already.



I can't help but notice you didn't actually respond to any of the points I made.

So, since you're convinced the fees in your area are excessive, why haven't you opened a school, set "reasonable" fees, stolen all the students from the other schools and gotten rich?


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## Rumy73 (Apr 15, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Are these KKW schools?  I can see the monthly fee of $100.  That's pretty comparable to what I've seen in my area.  I don't have an issue with that in a commercial school.  Colored belt tests, last I checked around (many years ago) was pretty standard at $50.
> 
> I heard about many people, some I know personally, that paid quite a bit of money for a BB test.  $600 isn't the highest, but is, imo, too much money for a piece of paper.  Now in full disclosure, I've never paid for any test I've taken, nor do I in turn charge for any test I administer.  And that is when I had a school.  That's just me.  If this is a KKW school we're talking about, they ask, IIRC, $85 for a first Dan certificate.  So we're looking at $515 mark up.  Considering that the student has paid a monthly tuition for perhaps 2-3 years in addition to colored belt tests (perhaps 5-10) I would say they've invested a substantial amount of money already to the school.  To charge and additional $500+ (or more) is something I don't find reasonable.  I could perhaps see matching the KKW price (or whatever org we're talking about).
> 
> Is it bilking?  Well, hopefully the student was smart enough to find out up front how much things would cost.  If not, then it is on them.  If they're willing to pay that kind of money then so be it.  Some people attach quality to a dollar amount, some do not.  Some perhaps don't realize that careful shopping may provide the same level of service for less investment.  And to be fair, location is part of the equation.  Some places may not provide a choice.  In my area there are a plethora of TKD schools (just checked the local YP which revealed over five pages of schools not counting YMCA's and community centers).  Some folks may not have such options.





Yes, these are kkw schools I am talking about.

There are a few ways to see this problem. I agree ppl should shop around but a lot has to do with convenience. In an area with congestion and bad traffic, close to home is key for consistent participation. However, most schools use similar business models. So shopping around may not yield different results. For my son, I looked into community karate, it was pathetic.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can't help but notice you didn't actually respond to any of the points I made.
> 
> So, since you're convinced the fees in your area are excessive, why haven't you opened a school, set "reasonable" fees, stolen all the students from the other schools and gotten rich?



Nice try.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Nice try.



Thank you. I *am* trying to get you to actually respond to a question, but I keep failing. All you do is dodge. 

So I will try again...

Since you feel the fee structures at the schools in your area are excessive, why haven't you opened a school, undercut all those schools, and gotten rich?

That's certainly what I would do.


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## ballen0351 (Apr 15, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Thank you. I *am* trying to get you to actually respond to a question, but I keep failing. All you do is dodge.
> 
> So I will try again...
> 
> ...


Prob because I live in the same area as Rumy and the prices hes quoting are on the lower end for this area.  Most BJJ schools here are 200+ a month, My Karate Dojo is $125 a month with my police discount.  I dont train TKD but I know of 2 schools in the area that charge in excess if 150 a month.  My cheapest class is Judo and its $35 a month but its also not really a commercial school.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 15, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> Prob because I live in the same area as Rumy and the prices hes quoting are on the lower end for this area.  Most BJJ schools here are 200+ a month, My Karate Dojo is $125 a month with my police discount.  I dont train TKD but I know of 2 schools in the area that charge in excess if 150 a month.  My cheapest class is Judo and its $35 a month but its also not really a commercial school.



Well gosh, seems to me that if the LOWER end of the price spectrum  is excessive, it should be even easier to open a school and get rich by undercutting their pricing. 

Or maybe the fees he's griping about all the time aren't at all unreasonable for a business (as opposed to a charity) in that area. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 16, 2014)

Maybe I've missed it, but what is the range of fee for the mini Dan tests?


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## msmitht (Apr 16, 2014)

Michael89 said:


> I took black belt test first time in 2 years and I passed last Friday (April 11,2014) only 5 more test till i become 2nd dan black belt. test is every two month.



Congrats. You do know how the kukkiwon tests run, don't you? 2 random forms and then your poomsae, one round of sparring and then breaking. That's it. Anything else is added on by your instructors to fill the time. Only takes a year in Korea to get to black and only a year to second. Same certificate that you are getting. 
And the test for second only costs $90.


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## Touch Of Death (Apr 16, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Congrats. You do know how the kukkiwon tests run, don't you? 2 random forms and then your poomsae, one round of sparring and then breaking. That's it. Anything else is added on by your instructors to fill the time. Only takes a year in Korea to get to black and only a year to second. Same certificate that you are getting.
> And the test for second only costs $90.


What takes them so damn long?


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## Rumy73 (Apr 16, 2014)

msmitht said:


> Congrats. You do know how the kukkiwon tests run, don't you? 2 random forms and then your poomsae, one round of sparring and then breaking. That's it. Anything else is added on by your instructors to fill the time. Only takes a year in Korea to get to black and only a year to second. Same certificate that you are getting.
> And the test for second only costs $90.



Very true. My neighbor was planning her daughter visiting Korea last summer. She had her daughter bb test in Seoul and saved a bundle.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 16, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Maybe I've missed it, but what is the range of fee for the mini Dan tests?



I have seen $60-$80.


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## Rumy73 (Apr 16, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Well gosh, seems to me that if the LOWER end of the price spectrum  is excessive, it should be even easier to open a school and get rich by undercutting their pricing.
> 
> Or maybe the fees he's griping about all the time aren't at all unreasonable for a business (as opposed to a charity) in that area.
> 
> ...



Ok, so its legit for you to disparage my view as "gripping" yet you are an admin and frequently penalize folks with tos? And then if you are reported, the person gets slammed for reporting you. Something is really off.


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## ballen0351 (Apr 16, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Ok, so its legit for you to disparage my view as "gripping" yet you are an admin and frequently penalize folks with tos? And then if you are reported, the person gets slammed for reporting you. Something is really off.



So your saying your not going to answer his question?


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## Rumy73 (Apr 16, 2014)

ballen0351 said:


> So your saying your not going to answer his question?



Nice attempted pile on.


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## ballen0351 (Apr 16, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> Nice attempted pile on.


Guess not


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## MT Admin Team (Apr 16, 2014)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.

MT Admin Team*


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## WaterGal (Apr 16, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Is there a fee, beyond the normal tuition, associated with the mini-Dan tests?  This is aimed at the OP, but could also go for anyone that does/has this practice in their school.  If so, how much is the fee and how many mini tests are there before the next Dan level.



$20 each, and there are 5 for 1st dan, 10 for 2nd & 3rd dans, each testing a weapon form (bo, chucks & sai).  None after that.


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## WaterGal (Apr 16, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I heard about many people, some I know personally, that paid quite a bit of money for a BB test.  $600 isn't the highest, but is, imo, too much money for a piece of paper.  Now in full disclosure, I've never paid for any test I've taken, nor do I in turn charge for any test I administer.  And that is when I had a school.  That's just me.  If this is a KKW school we're talking about, they ask, IIRC, $85 for a first Dan certificate.  So we're looking at $515 mark up.



Yeah, $600 does seem rather high to me for 1st dan.  

I mean, at a lot of places, the test price includes a new uniform, a belt with the student's name embroidered on it, maybe a weapon or a framed certificate or some other swag, plus boards and maybe other stuff to break.  So there can be other costs beyond just the money to KKW.  And I think it's fair for the school to make _some_ money to be open extra hours for the special event.  But unless you're flying in a grandmaster to officiate your test or something, $600 seems like an awful lot.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 16, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, $600 does seem rather high to me for 1st dan.
> 
> I mean, at a lot of places, the test price includes a new uniform, a belt with the student's name embroidered on it, maybe a weapon or a framed certificate or some other swag, plus boards and maybe other stuff to break.  So there can be other costs beyond just the money to KKW.  And I think it's fair for the school to make _some_ money to be open extra hours for the special event.  But unless you're flying in a grandmaster to officiate your test or something, $600 seems like an awful lot.



Our KKW 1st Dan is $400. KKW  fees, boards, framed certificate, embroidered belt, bringing either our KJN or another GM (usually; there are only two people above our Master in the lineage, so if they're not available...), and a small party after. MDK 1st Dan is $300.


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 17, 2014)

Rumy73 said:


> I have seen $60-$80.



And how many mini-tests are there from Dan grade to Dan grade?


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 17, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> $20 each, and there are 5 for 1st dan, 10 for 2nd & 3rd dans, each testing a weapon form (bo, chucks & sai).  None after that.



Alright, so if I'm understanding correctly, between 1st and 2nd Dan they're five mini-tests at $20 each for $100 total investment on top of monthly tuition.  And between 2nd and 3rd/3rd to 4th they're ten mini-tests for $200 investment each plus monthly tuition.

How much are the Dan tests?


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## Kong Soo Do (Apr 17, 2014)

Dirty Dog said:


> Our KKW 1st Dan is $400. KKW  fees, boards, framed certificate, embroidered belt, bringing either our KJN or another GM (usually; there are only two people above our Master in the lineage, so if they're not available...), and a small party after. MDK 1st Dan is $300.



Ok, the KKW cert is $85.  So that leaves $315 towards boards, frame, belt (which aren't expensive, perhaps in the neighborhood of $20 give or take), travel for the KJN and a party.  And of course a  little something for the school.  All in all, that's not to bad considering, from your earlier post, there is no cost for mini-tests.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 18, 2014)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, $600 does seem rather high to me for 1st dan. But unless you're flying in a grandmaster to officiate your test or something, $600 seems like an awful lot.



When I went for my 1st Dan the head of our school Master Rhee flew in, like he always does, and it only cost me $150. I have heard of one school in America that charged $2000.


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## seasoned (Apr 19, 2014)

As with anything, what the market can bear, the people will pay.


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## WaterGal (Apr 21, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Alright, so if I'm understanding correctly, between 1st and 2nd Dan they're five mini-tests at $20 each for $100 total investment on top of monthly tuition.  And between 2nd and 3rd/3rd to 4th they're ten mini-tests for $200 investment each plus monthly tuition.
> 
> How much are the Dan tests?



$300 for 1st Dan, which includes the KKW cert, a new uniform, embroidered belt, weapon, and about 20 boards.  Oh, and us taking GM out to dinner - man puts away some serious soju, lol.


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## reeskm (Jun 19, 2014)

What a great thread!

As for myself, 1st Dan, from memory, was around $650 Canadian. It included quality heavyweight uniform, TSD MDK trimmed, custom embroidered belt, two dan certificates (one personally from my instructor, the other from the American Tang Soo Do Association), registration with our org (at the time it was ATA) and it was for a 2.5 day test. Instructor training course on Friday evening was mandatory, and 2 day black belt test over the weekend. It covered all food during the test, but paying for the banquet on Sunday night and the GM's meal was extra. I think that was about $40, but I didn't care at all. I was massive starving!

All in all, I thought the fee was very reasonable.

One aspect that hasn't been mentioned, I think, was this:
Our instructor made it very clear that the cost of the test was based on the idea that if the cost of entry was too cheap, there was little incentive for the applicant to take the test seriously. By putting a monetary price on the test, in essense, constitutes a barrier to overcome mentally and physically. He used to semi-jokingly tell us that if we just so happened to want to back out of the test, that the fee was non-refundable. And that he would be enjoying his steak dinner on that particular dropout. He rarely ever did get that steak dinner for free though. We were all too determined not to let him have it 

Some take this as a sign of a McDojo. Let me tell you, never did I ever consider my school a McDojo. There was too much other professionalism displayed all around for it to ever be cheapened to that level. You got out at least 2x as much as you put in financially and it was worth every penny.

My experience regarding mini tests is very similar to Michael89's. We would receive 4 blue stripes on our red (senior gup) belt before black belt testing. There were 2 pre-tests before 1st dan, and every year dan's were expected to "re-certify" or go to those pre tests with the senior gup's. Cost has always been about $40 and it is run on a non-class day, like a Saturday morning. It was always reasonable along the lines that tests and seminars should have a small fee to cover the costs of running the dojang.



Dirty Dog said:


> DC is an expensive area. Expensive to live, expensive to run a business. The schools there have to pay the bills, and I suspect the instructors are fond of things like eating, sleeping indoors, and maybe even driving a car.


In the oil rich and spoiled city of Calgary where I'm from, leasing a commercial space for a reasonable Dojang runs around $4-10k/month, including fees and utilities, taxes and the like. With over 150 martial arts schools in this city of 1.3 million, running a competitive school is really really really hard, compared to the Michigan where my teacher was from before, and lease was $500 USD/month all in.
Dirty Dog hits this issue dead on the money: you teacher deserves a decent life and if you appreciate the training and mentorship, pitch in to support them. My teacher sacrificed so much to be there for us, on the other end of a phone, in person, after hours, at seminars and tournaments all around the world, and for training in martial arts for over 40 years. And, god bless him he's really not that wealthy. He still can't even afford his own house, doesn't drive new cars, and works full time during the day to support his family.


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## skribs (Jun 19, 2014)

Yeah, I got the heads up for the $600 test at my school, but AFAIK it includes the KKW registration, a new uniform, trophy, and embroidered belt.  I haven't tested yet (probably another 1.5 years) and I haven't watched any of the tests, but I've heard they have to get a GM from outside.  I think it's a bit high, and would obviously prefer cheaper, but it's definitely not a deal breaker for me.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jun 19, 2014)

skribs said:


> Yeah, I got the heads up for the $600 test at my school...


Did you get the heads up from the school, or from other students/parents?  I've seen students getting the heads up from other students/parents....never from the school at the time of enrollment


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## andyjeffries (Jun 20, 2014)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Ok, the KKW cert is $85.



KKW 1st Dan is US$70. 2nd Dan is US$90, 3rd is US$120, 4th is US$150.

Just for reference...


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 20, 2014)

skribs said:


> Yeah, I got the heads up for the $600 test ....................................................., trophy, .



Can you elaborate on the "Trophy" aspect?


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## Earl Weiss (Jun 20, 2014)

reeskm said:


> What a great thread!
> 
> As for myself, 1st Dan, from memory, was around $650 Canadian. .................................
> 
> ...



Agee wholeheartedly that Instructors need to cover costs which can vary greatly and that they should be well compensated. 

I take issue with:

 "Our instructor made it very clear that the cost of the test was based on the idea that if the cost of entry was too cheap, there was little incentive for the applicant to take the test seriously. By putting a monetary price on the test, in essense, constitutes a barrier to overcome mentally and physically"


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 20, 2014)

Earl Weiss said:


> Agee wholeheartedly that Instructors need to cover costs which can vary greatly and that they should be well compensated.
> 
> I take issue with:
> 
> "Our instructor made it very clear that the cost of the test was based on the idea that if the cost of entry was too cheap, there was little incentive for the applicant to take the test seriously. By putting a monetary price on the test, in essense, constitutes a barrier to overcome mentally and physically"


I'm not a big fan of this either. I think people ought to just say, "This is the price." If an owner feels he needs to justify his fees, maybe the fees are too high. I don't know why some people are afraid to admit they make a profit, or why other people take issue with MA instructors making a good living.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal (Jun 23, 2014)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'm not a big fan of this either. I think people ought to just say, "This is the price." If an owner feels he needs to justify his fees, maybe the fees are too high. I don't know why some people are afraid to admit they make a profit, or why other people take issue with MA instructors making a good living.
> 
> Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk



I think a lot of Americans/Westerners feel that if you do something artistic or spiritual or that benefits the community, you should be willing to do it for free.  That the work should be it's own reward.

For example, I went to school for design. I can't tell you how many offers I got or saw to do free work for "for my portfolio".  They really thought I wouldn't care about getting paid for spending 20 hours on their project, since I enjoy the work.  

And then, if you're doing something that benefits people/the community, you can feel bad asking for "too much" money (even if it's the amount you need), since it means that some people can't afford to get that benefit.

I think a lot of martial arts teachers have internalized these attitudes about their work, so they feel guilty asking for too much money, or maybe just think they'll look bad if they make a good living, so they make these excuses or explanations about why things cost as much as they do.


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## skribs (Jun 23, 2014)

> For example, I went to school for design. I can't tell you how many  offers I got or saw to do free work for "for my portfolio".  They really  thought I wouldn't care about getting paid for spending 20 hours on  their project, since I enjoy the work.



I think that's more like a small unpaid internship than thinking you are just volunteering.  Sorry, off-topic devil's advocate.



> And then, if you're doing something that benefits people/the community,  you can feel bad asking for "too much" money (even if it's the amount  you need), since it means that some people can't afford to get that  benefit.



I can understand this sentiment.  The big issue is that services that are only for the rich are classist and racist.  But...it's all about the money, and martial arts training isn't one of the basic needs of life.


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## WaterGal (Jun 23, 2014)

skribs said:


> I think that's more like a small unpaid internship than thinking you are just volunteering.  Sorry, off-topic devil's advocate.



Unpaid internships doing work for a company in exchange for college credit are common in the arts and humanities, though they're pretty classist and somewhat illegal.  But some random person or small business asking you to make them a website or whatever "for your portfolio" isn't that - it's just somebody trying to get something for nothing.  I have friends who are professional musicians and artists who get the same kind of thing, where they get asked to do a 4-hour gig "for exposure", or people are shocked that they expect $200+ for a painting that took 10 hours.


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## reeskm (Jul 3, 2014)

I knew that particular part of my account (regarding a cost for the test being a "barrier") would be controversial. I agree it most certainly is. However, keep the following in mind:
- at the time, and since then, I have seen lots of similar martial arts schools charging $1000 to $2000 for dan tests. Local TKD schools commonly do this (no criticism here of TKD - they are simply the closest art and run schools commercially in Calgary)
- Our teacher always made it crystal clear that the belt was to be earned and could not be bought
- At the time we were members of the ATA (American Tang Soo Do Assoc). In the years since, we split from the ATA due to the high cost of membership, required attendance at USA events which, due to distance from western canada, were very costly for members. Of course, there were other disagreements between the GM's and that were strictly of a personal and business/commercial nature. Those that stayed with us disagreed with the direction towards more commercialism became evident and costs were increasing, and we didn't perceive a benefit for our students and members here in Canada. Some members chose to stay with the ATA because they enjoyed that connection to the members in the USA and didn't mind shelling out for out-of-country tests, camps, seminars, etc, and agreed with that organization's practices.
- Since the split, our dan test fee dropped lower due to lower registration fees with our new organization.
- our teacher always made exceptions for students that had trouble coming up with the full cost of testing. It wasn't like testing was determined by your personal wealth or financial circumstances. He always made reasonable accommodations.
- my teacher opened schools in the very late 70's through the 80's and 90's when the commercial scene in the USA and marketing martial arts schools became a huge deal and big business. He was brought up in this age and went to all the seminars of the time and no doubt was heavily influenced by this very American approach to business.
- That being said about the commercial scene in the 80's and 90's - in the last 5 years he started to completely turn the other direction as he felt times had changed and this was not the way to run a martial arts school. He put way more emphasis into the quality not quantity aspect and promoted it actively to all of us dan members. Like usual, some of us got it, and some didn't.

And now all the MMA/BJJ/Muay Thai joints do all the crazy marketing here and it's interesting to watch! I wonder if they'll ever take a "turn to the traditional way" like we have...


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## drop bear (Jul 3, 2014)

reeskm said:


> I knew that particular part of my account (regarding a cost for the test being a "barrier") would be controversial. I agree it most certainly is. However, keep the following in mind:
> - at the time, and since then, I have seen lots of similar martial arts schools charging $1000 to $2000 for dan tests. Local TKD schools commonly do this (no criticism here of TKD - they are simply the closest art and run schools commercially in Calgary)
> - Our teacher always made it crystal clear that the belt was to be earned and could not be bought
> - At the time we were members of the ATA (American Tang Soo Do Assoc). In the years since, we split from the ATA due to the high cost of membership, required attendance at USA events which, due to distance from western canada, were very costly for members. Of course, there were other disagreements between the GM's and that were strictly of a personal and business/commercial nature. Those that stayed with us disagreed with the direction towards more commercialism became evident and costs were increasing, and we didn't perceive a benefit for our students and members here in Canada. Some members chose to stay with the ATA because they enjoyed that connection to the members in the USA and didn't mind shelling out for out-of-country tests, camps, seminars, etc, and agreed with that organization's practices.
> ...




As mma tends to become a structured system it will become more tma.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OxOMKeK7Llc


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