# How to spar without sustaining major injuries?



## TkJojo (Feb 6, 2010)

Dear All,
This upset me today so I'd be very grateful for opinions and even explanations to help clarify for me.

I'm a female green belt in TaeKwondo ITF. I train approx 3 times a week and attend a variety of classes including green belt, fitness training and sparring. 

Ever since I started I've taken major issue with what I perceive as higher belts who show disregard for the difference in kups (and even gender -there's a reason why men don't spar against women in competition).

What I mean is that I feel that whilst against children for example, obviously every single one of us are very reserved with our shots on the rare occasion we spar with a child yet I feel that whilst some members (men and women) not just at the lower kups but even up to red belt and black belt, are rather timid in sparring, others seem to lack an awareness to control their shots.

Me I'm a green belt female, I'm not timid, I like to get stuck in in any activity I participate in however I also try to be very conscious not to go hard on any of my opponents. In recent months 2 lads I didn't recognise (a red tip and a red belt) joined one day, so I assume they were returning to tk from a proglongued break, and in sparring both of them did an axe kick down on to my head or shoulder resulting in considerable pain and a nasty headache for me. A few weeks later, with one of the guys who I know is more controlled, I made the mistake of stepping forward guard down at the same time as he did a turning kick and the result was a black eye.

Today, I find I'm timid, I'm reluctant to get injured again, I'm also feeling a bit weak from being on antibiotics but don't see why I should refrain from training just for this? So i trained with the aforementioned red belt and a former red/black belt of wtf tk (as well as a more timid red tip). 

The Tk Master gave out to me for having my guard low rather than up beside my head. I think in my tiredness my tone must have conveyed slight tension when I responded that my former wtf sparring partner was not punching my gloves as per the excercise but straight forward to my face...
I got more irrated when she too tried to say the same thing each time she punched towards my head and not the gloves as we were instructed to do...

Later some real tension arose when he pulled me up on things again and I tried to ask him how I can train myself to keep my guard up (which is my major flaw right now) without worrying that my sparring partner might put me in hospital if I make a mistake? I phrased it a bit different -how do I prevent myself from more injuries to which he responded, agitated, that I should defend myself and when I tried to ask what about partners who are stronger etc he started saying I was talking as if people were intending to hurt me...he went on to claim that sometimes I don't listen (which I believe is a very unfair statement) and something else similar. I felt upset by this claim together with the fact that in my effort to seek guidence from an instructor whom I look upon very fondly and trust, I felt my concerns to keep myself safe whilst learning the art of tk were dismissed. I've been with the club for over a year now and paid considerable money towards membership and today I felt like walking out and never returning when he said these things.

I'd be grateful for opinions on the above, how to best clarify this (and possibly apologise for any tension) during the coming week with the aforementioned instructor, and especially what are your thoughts on sparring and control? Should I just give up sparring?? Am I wrong to expect to be able to participate in sparring without having to worry that someone is going to split my head open until such time that I have learned the art of good defense (which surely should take years anyway no?). Also any advice on what I might be doing wrong or can change to help matters would be appreciated!

Many thanks in advance


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## CoryKS (Feb 6, 2010)

If you're sparring with someone who's coming in with too much force, try saying "Hey, tone it down a bit."  Communication is important, and they may not be able to tell that you're not comfortable with the intensity level.  I'm surprised that it's the higher belts you are having problems with, in our school it's usually the new guys that lack control and want to "Hulk Smash".


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## ATC (Feb 6, 2010)

You are just a beginner so....

1. When you instructor says you don't listen, you don't. Not that you don't try to, but that your experience and training is not advanced enough for you to actually hear, understand and apply what he is saying. No green belt can.

2. Accidents happen. Even at the Black Belt level you will from time to time have someone move the wrong way into a technique and get hit a little harder than intended by their opponent.

3. Over time you will get better and understand how to avoid or block by anticipating your opponents techniques. You will start to understand how and why your opponent will attack you thus being able to anticipate many moves and avoid them or block and counter them.

Now what that said here are some tips.

1. Work on keeping good distance from your opponent. If your opponent is taller than you, then your distance should be inside his range and at the end of your range. Never back away from a taller person as you only back into his striking range. Move on angles or slightly in when they attack. Moving in will jam his techniques and throw off his timing.

2. Work on fainting or checking before you attack and even when you opponent attempts to attack. By checking you introduce confusion and mask your intent. You can check or faint even when you want to counter causing your opponent to hesitate. Hesitation is the worst thing you can do.

3. Don't hesitate. As mentioned above, hesitation will only get you hit. If you attempt a technique commit to it, even if you miss. If you miss then follow up with a second technique right away. The second technique or follow up will most always connect. Never throw one technique and then stand there, you will get hit.

4. Use proper technique. If you are attempting a round kick do not short cut it. By this I mean do not rush the kick and have it drift up looking like a front kick. This will only hurt you and not your opponent. I have seen many toes and feet get broken on the opponents elbow because they attempted a round house kick only to really throw a front kick to the elbow. This is bad technique and bad technique will get you and your opponent hurt. This goes for any hand technique as well.

5. Listen to advice and do it. In the dojang is the time to try new things. There is no life and death situations in the dojang, so in there is the time to practice what you are not good at. Also if you are only point sparring then this is the best time to practice new things given. In the dojang it does not count so don't be afraid to get hit or give up a point trying something new. That is how you learn. Even if it does not work try it many times until you can make it work. If you lose in the dojang but learn something in the process then the real winner is you. Don't look at sparring in the dojang as a win or lose situation, there are only learning lessons.

Start with these simple five things and you will be fine. Bumps and bruises are a part of doing a MA, so don't worry too much when you get them. Now if you are getting injured (injured is broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments, and so on) then there is a problem. But a black eye and some bruises every now and then will and should happen.

Hope this helps. Train hard but have fun.


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## Blindside (Feb 6, 2010)

TkJojo said:


> I'd be grateful for opinions on the above, how to best clarify this (and possibly apologise for any tension) during the coming week with the aforementioned instructor, and especially what are your thoughts on sparring and control? Should I just give up sparring?? Am I wrong to expect to be able to participate in sparring without having to worry that someone is going to split my head open until such time that I have learned the art of good defense (which surely should take years anyway no?). Also any advice on what I might be doing wrong or can change to help matters would be appreciated!
> 
> Many thanks in advance



To be frank, I haven't heard of an instance of a "major injury" here, nor that the classes were terribly out of control.  This is a contact sport and there is always a chance to zig when the other guy thought you were going to zag and more contact than intended happens.  

If you are afraid of contact or there are partners that you don't trust to protect you, then don't do the drill or don't spar with those particular students.  That said, I'd recommend against that, you only grow when you are challenged.


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## Masshiro (Feb 6, 2010)

number one. an Axe kick should never be used in sparing it is too hard to controll and is designed to break bones. if you were to block it she would have broke your arm, you never block a kick with your arms. 
number two. if your instructor doesnt address the fact the people are getting hurt he is a moron.
number three. the rest of you replying to this post should know all this and shouldnt be telling her she is at falt.  shame on you


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Feb 6, 2010)

Hi, I'm a female martial artist, so I'll respond. Although I trained in TKD for a while, I'm currently coming from a kenpo training perspective. I did point sparring in TKD, but in my kenpo dojo all sparring in continuous, for either pre-determined lengths of time (3-5 minutes) or for unstructured time periods (until someone quits).

In my mind, sparring serves two purposes. Firstly, it allows us to practice the basic techniques we are taught (punches, kicks, blocks, parries) against a moving opponent. We learn how to use our bodies properly, how to use footwork and techniques to defend ourselves and hurt someone else. Secondly, it teaches us to get hurt. This is an important lesson. A fight doesn't stop when you get jacked up, it keeps coming at you. We need to experience pain and fear so that our reactions to these stimuli can be controlled.

It is natural for you to be nervous or even afraid when you spar. I experience that too, especially when I'm sparring someone who has hurt me before. But it is important to learn the difference between natural caution and fearful avoidance. Use caution to improve your art; for instance, you might ask a clumsy partner to go 1/2 speed so you can practice parrying. Harness fear to improve your spirit; continue to spar with the people who scare you, asking for no special considerations. That is what I have done and it is helping me tremendously.

We all get hurt in martial arts. It is expected and accepted. Every week I walk away with some little injury...this week it is bruised swollen knuckles and a pierced lip. One day I'll get a bigger injury, such as a broken bone or a concussion, because it happens to everyone who continues in the arts. If you accept it now, you remove much of the power that the fear has over your mind.


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## Twin Fist (Feb 6, 2010)

Masshiro said:


> number one. an Axe kick should never be used in sparing it is too hard to controll and is designed to break bones. if you were to block it she would have broke your arm,



someone has been drinking the kool aid again.........


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## jks9199 (Feb 6, 2010)

Masshiro said:


> number one. an Axe kick should never be used in sparing it is too hard to controll and is designed to break bones. if you were to block it she would have broke your arm, you never block a kick with your arms.
> number two. if your instructor doesnt address the fact the people are getting hurt he is a moron.
> number three. the rest of you replying to this post should know all this and shouldnt be telling her she is at falt.  shame on you



You've got a valid point:  the sparring does seem to be poorly supervised based on her account -- especially with upper rank students who seem to be taking the opportunity to simply beat on lower rank students.  

But she's not without failings, either.  Let's look at her post:



TkJojo said:


> Dear All,
> Ever since I started I've taken major issue with what I perceive as higher belts who show disregard for the difference in kups (and even gender -there's a reason why men don't spar against women in competition).


Reality:  the streets don't care about gender, age, weight class or anything else.  Depending on why she's training -- the dojang is the place to figure out what it's like fighting someone larger, smaller, with more or less skill.  And what if feels like to be hit and rocked, too, so that she knows how to function past it.


> Me I'm a green belt female, I'm not timid, I like to get stuck in in any activity I participate in however I also try to be very conscious not to go hard on any of my opponents. In recent months 2 lads I didn't recognise (a red tip and a red belt) joined one day, so I assume they were returning to tk from a proglongued break, and in sparring both of them did an axe kick down on to my head or shoulder resulting in considerable pain and a nasty headache for me. A few weeks later, with one of the guys who I know is more controlled, I made the mistake of stepping forward guard down at the same time as he did a turning kick and the result was a black eye.


First thing:  the axe kicks.  Seems like it was poorly controlled.  I question whether it was necessarily an appropriate technique for an advanced student (I'm assuming that red in this school is nearly black, like in many TKD schools.) to use.  At the same time -- students have to learn to defend against them somewhere.  There's a functional line that the instructor needs to draw.

Second: the black eye.  That's a clash.  They happen in sparring.  Even with nearly perfect control on both sides, one person can duck or turn into a strike unexpectedly, zigging when the other person zags.  When that happens, bruises and worse can occur.  I've got a nifty scar under my lower lip from someone catching things just right by accident...



> Today, I find I'm timid, I'm reluctant to get injured again, I'm also feeling a bit weak from being on antibiotics but don't see why I should refrain from training just for this? So i trained with the aforementioned red belt and a former red/black belt of wtf tk (as well as a more timid red tip).
> 
> The Tk Master gave out to me for having my guard low rather than up beside my head. I think in my tiredness my tone must have conveyed slight tension when I responded that my former wtf sparring partner was not punching my gloves as per the excercise but straight forward to my face...
> I got more irrated when she too tried to say the same thing each time she punched towards my head and not the gloves as we were instructed to do...
> ...


Different issue here.  The instructor is correcting her -- and she's arguing.  She's leaning on time and money, and complaining about being corrected.  I suspect that she doesn't really listen sometimes; she's "entitled" to do whatever and doesn't need to hear the advice.  She wasn't doing what the instructor wanted, and talked back rather than correcting it.  What's going to happen if she faces someone for real who is stronger, faster, or just throws a shot at an "illegal" target?  The proper response isn't "they aren't doing it right" or "what am I supposed to do...", it's to listen, and follow directions.  If there seems to be a misunderstanding about the directions -- ask about that, don't talk back.



> I'd be grateful for opinions on the above, how to best clarify this (and possibly apologise for any tension) during the coming week with the aforementioned instructor, and especially what are your thoughts on sparring and control? Should I just give up sparring?? Am I wrong to expect to be able to participate in sparring without having to worry that someone is going to split my head open until such time that I have learned the art of good defense (which surely should take years anyway no?). Also any advice on what I might be doing wrong or can change to help matters would be appreciated!
> 
> Many thanks in advance



Effective training requires a risk of injury.  That's how you learn the art of defense.  With the right motivation -- you'll learn quickly.  After a year of training, and having moved roughly 1/2 way through the ranks, I would expect a student to be able to handle that risk.  It's easy to defend if nobody ever really gets in range or throws hard strikes -- but it's not going to really prepare you for an attack.


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## ATC (Feb 6, 2010)

Masshiro said:


> number one. an Axe kick should never be used in sparing it is too hard to controll and is designed to break bones. if you were to block it she would have broke your arm, you never block a kick with your arms.
> number two. if your instructor doesnt address the fact the people are getting hurt he is a moron.
> number three. the rest of you replying to this post should know all this and shouldnt be telling her she is at falt. shame on you


I use ax kick all the time in sparring. It is one of the easist kick to control.
Here is a clip of a couple of our kids sparring with control (light contact). You will see a couple of ax kicks with control.
[yt]XFhHz3qaFWA[/yt]


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## granfire (Feb 7, 2010)

Ok, I think you had the conversation in the middle of class, of sparring. That might make it hard to express what you want to say accurately. Try again before or after.

The black eye - while painful (and hard to explain to non MA people  ) - was an accident: you moved in on your partner's action, happens. I ran into a couple of side kicks that way, just right at the short ribs, it hurt for month!

poop happens, but that - eventually - does make you mind your guard better.

Axe kicks...got hit by one one time...saw the leg go up, saw it come down, kind of in slo-mo, too, but I could not move, and the hit was hard. My partner was beside himself that he hit me so hard, but that's how it happens, best block is to move out of the way.

We do round stepping drills all the time, you don't step out of range, just out of the way.

But the biggy is the higher ranks beating up on the lower ones. I just can't warm up to that concept. As higher rank I am in the position to control much of the game, ask the lower rank to do certain things so I can practice them, I control speed and intensity, but I am also a teacher in that match and am obligated to help the lower rank make some progress and advance. 

So, you need to have a talk with your instructor, getting hurt is not fun and too many people can't afford to be layed up these days.


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## Manny (Feb 7, 2010)

Well I am not a female but been hit and pretty hard some times (broken theet,broken nose, a well knock out) and all my injres came from doing sparring inside dojang, not turnament.

I think inside the dojang doin sport sparring control is a must, we don't need to maim or kill our enemy, we sparr because we want to know if what we are training for is right, I mean you try top do the kicks and combos and techs you are taught and see if you are proficient, at the same time sparring teach us how to parry,dodge,block,etc, to not been hit.

In my former dojang we had two styles of do kyorugi, one was medium kyorugi and the other was full kyorugi. In the medium kyorugy or light sparr we do the techs at medium velocity trying to caught the other guy and the contact was controled, not point sparring, just to kick or puch the other but not so hard.The full kyorugi was using full speed and power.

You can ask you sambonim to do light sparring with classmates of the same level you, doing sparring with classmates two or more belts tha you is not so fair I will say. Also always wear the full safety equipment and check your oponent is wearing it too, this can minimize the injures.

Manny


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## JWLuiza (Feb 7, 2010)

They (the upper belts) should read this:

http://tangsoodotravels.blogspot.com/2009/01/being-bad-paterner-part-deux.html


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2010)

ATC, no one should be working at fainting, if it's so bad you have to make yourself faint I think you'd be better out of martial arts.


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## ATC (Feb 7, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> ATC, no one should be working at fainting, if it's so bad you have to make yourself faint I think you'd be better out of martial arts.


Ha ha ha...Yeah that does seem bad.


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## StudentCarl (Feb 8, 2010)

My master supervises sparring, arranges pairings, and gives guidance to higher belts in the pairings if he wants them to lighten up or work on something specific. We're often told "If you break your partner you won't have one to train with." There's a difference between all-out and out-of-control, though accidents are a part of training and your master can tell accidents from recklessness. If you trust your master you should focus on improving your technique and on communicating with your sparring partner. Perseverence will lead you to improvement and you will feel more confident.

Carl


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## MJS (Feb 8, 2010)

TkJojo said:


> Dear All,
> This upset me today so I'd be very grateful for opinions and even explanations to help clarify for me.
> 
> I'm a female green belt in TaeKwondo ITF. I train approx 3 times a week and attend a variety of classes including green belt, fitness training and sparring.
> ...


 
I dont train TKD, so I'm not sure where the green belt falls.  Anyways, first and foremost, the person heading the sparring, should have the utmost control over whats going on.  In other words, they need to be paying attention, and ensure that safety is being used.

Usually when I spar, its determined before the match begins, what the pace will be.  This should prevent any sudden surprises.  When I spar lower ranks, I go at their pace.  I think that it should be a learning experience, not always an *** kicking. 

As far as keeping your hands up....this comes with practice.  Then again, much of the TKD that I've seen, the hands are down anways, so.....in that case, its going to be hard to block/defend anyways, if you have to bring your hands up.

As far as the contact goes....again, as I said above, the pace should be set beforehand, however, the martial arts are a contact activity, so, contact should be expected.  

Should you give up sparring?  Why, because you got hit?  IMO, I think you should keep getting back into the ring.  The more you do something, the better you'll eventually be.   Take your time.  If someone is watching the match, they should be able to help you out with any weak spots you may have. 

Good luck and keep training hard.


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## chrispillertkd (Feb 8, 2010)

TkJojo said:


> Ever since I started I've taken major issue with what I perceive as higher belts who show disregard for the difference in kups (and even gender -there's a reason why men don't spar against women in competition).
> 
> What I mean is that I feel that whilst against children for example, obviously every single one of us are very reserved with our shots on the rare occasion we spar with a child yet I feel that whilst some members (men and women) not just at the lower kups but even up to red belt and black belt, are rather timid in sparring, others seem to lack an awareness to control their shots.
> 
> Me I'm a green belt female, I'm not timid, I like to get stuck in in any activity I participate in however I also try to be very conscious not to go hard on any of my opponents. In recent months 2 lads I didn't recognise (a red tip and a red belt) joined one day, so I assume they were returning to tk from a proglongued break, and in sparring both of them did an axe kick down on to my head or shoulder resulting in considerable pain and a nasty headache for me. A few weeks later, with one of the guys who I know is more controlled, I made the mistake of stepping forward guard down at the same time as he did a turning kick and the result was a black eye.


 
From what it states in your post here it appears to me that the problem with control is _not_ rampant throughout the school. You stated that one instance of you getting hit was due to your own mistake of dropping your guard while someone you know has control was kicking. I've done that myself and boy can it hurt since you're basically adding the force of your movement to the force of his kick. Painful, but ultimately that falls under the "Oops" category.

The other two instances you mention are with students who are back to training after a prolonged absence. These are much more likely to fall under the category of people needing to pay more attention and work on their own control until they are back to their old level of proficiency again. I don't know the size of your school but if these are the only two incidents like this I would say they are isolated and can be dealt with by simply telling the people in question to please be careful the next time you spar them.  




> Later some real tension arose when he pulled me up on things again and I tried to ask him how I can train myself to keep my guard up (which is my major flaw right now) without worrying that my sparring partner might put me in hospital if I make a mistake? I phrased it a bit different -how do I prevent myself from more injuries to which he responded, agitated, that I should defend myself and when I tried to ask what about partners who are stronger etc he started saying I was talking as if people were intending to hurt me...he went on to claim that sometimes I don't listen (which I believe is a very unfair statement) and something else similar. I felt upset by this claim together with the fact that in my effort to seek guidence from an instructor whom I look upon very fondly and trust, I felt my concerns to keep myself safe whilst learning the art of tk were dismissed.


 
There's not enough information provided in your post for me to tell exactly what's going on here. You talk about how you _felt_ in this situation - which is important - but without specifics of what you said and what he said, exactly any advice you receive should be taken with a huge grain of salt. 

The only advice I can give you is that if you do have a great concern about your safety during sparring you should talk to 1) the people you're sparring who have a control problem when you are sparring them and tell them not to hit you if they do so, and 2) your instructor in private. Come in early or set up a time you can meet with him in his office or after class. Tell him your concerns in a manner which will not be critical of his instructing style (you catch more flies with honey, after all, and TKD puts great emphasis on Courtesy). Give him specific examples. Refer to exact times and people. Make it clear that you don't think they were doing it purposefully if you don't think they were (and a simple lack of control wouldn't qualify as purposeful so much as careless, IMO). By doing this you will limit your criticism to specific thingsand not be levelling a general complaint about your instructor, his school, and your fellow students. Also, when talking with him in private take the time to apologize if what you said to him before came off like you were levelling a general criticism as that was not your intent. A simple "I'm sorry" goes a long way to smooth over hurt feelings even for unintentional offenses. 

It is good that you recognize keeping your guard up is something you need to work on. Now examine what he told you about needing to listen and see if it is a criticism that, after the fact and away from the stress of the situation you describe, is legitimate. We all have faults we can see easily and those we cannot.    



> I've been with the club for over a year now and paid considerable money towards membership and today I felt like walking out and never returning when he said these things.


 
A year is a long time. You've obviously made a commitment because you value the training you're receiving under your instructor but I don't see anything in your post - from what you've written - that would _necessitate_ you walking away. You could choose to do so, of course, but what you've described doesn't fall into the "Run away as fast as you can" category. 

Pax,

Chris


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## terryl965 (Feb 8, 2010)

*Originally Posted by Masshiro **

*
_*number one. an Axe kick should never be used in sparing it is too hard to controll and is designed to break bones. if you were to block it she would have broke your arm, you never block a kick with your arms. 
number two. if your instructor doesnt address the fact the people are getting hurt he is a moron.
number three. the rest of you replying to this post should know all this and shouldnt be telling her she is at falt. shame on you*_

_Number one what shuld a axe kick not be used in sparring, control is the balance of everything we teach. If the axe kick is tought correctly and you have tought your student the meaning of control this has to be a non issue._

_Number Two I am sure the Head Instructor has control of there own school and to emply any thing else is simply you looking to cause trouble._

_Number three sir there are always two side to every story and somewhere in the middle lays the truth and shame on you for not knowing this._


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## KELLYG (Feb 8, 2010)

My first question is how long have you been Sparing.  Some clubs wont let you start sparing till you reach a certain belt level. Even if you have been sparing, for the entire year that you have been training, you are still a little green when it comes to sparing.  Sometimes when you are  sparing someone with less experience they don't know exactly how to read their opponent and move in very unpredictable ways.  This can cause a more experienced player to hit, accidentally, harder than they would have normally. Walking into a kick amplifies the force exponentially compared to what the intended force was. 

 It is kind of hard for me to interpret weather the OP is being bullied, not listening or is just inexperienced.   Remember anytime you spar there is the possibility of injury.  There is never any shame in saying to your opponent <look I don't have a lot of experiance> and for the most part they will work with you.


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## Marginal (Feb 9, 2010)

I dunno about diagnosing the school one way or another, but I'll chime in with some more (potentially redundant) defensive advice in no particular order:

Relax. If you get freaked out by the thought of someone hitting you, you tend to tense up. The tenser you are, the harder time you'll have reacting. 
It's hard to hit someone as long as they're moving. Stay light on your feet. A lot of people will stop and brace themselves if they're expecting to be hit. You're better off getting out of the way. 
Keep your blocking small. Lower belts tend to over block. Keep your hands up, and cover your ribs and body by keeping your elbows in close. Most stuff won't be much of a problem. 
Work angles. A lot of the time, lower belts tend to simply retreat backwards when they think they're in trouble. It's fairly easy to keep up with someone just scooting backwards. Step off to the side, and it's harder for the attacker to recover. (You also get better counter opportunities)
Learn to read who you're sparring. People like to set themselves before they go on the offensive. Try to shut them down when they look like they're trying to settle in. Along those lines, if someone's in motion, if they're attacking etc, they've committed to that particular action. They're not going to be doing anything but that action until it's complete. 
Get in shape. Most injuries I've seen tend to stem from fatigue and/or poor conditioning. It also helps boost your confidence, which makes you less likely to be super tense and so on...


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## terryl965 (Feb 9, 2010)

*How to spar without sustaining major injuries?:erg:*


*That is easy after really thinking about it, Do not spar this way you can act like you know what to do when or if you ever get attack.:rofl:*


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## granfire (Feb 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> *How to spar without sustaining major injuries?:erg:*
> 
> 
> *That is easy after really thinking about it, Do not spar this way you can act like you know what to do when or if you ever get attack.:rofl:*




LOL, say what?
:lfao:that's liek so totally not helpful! :lool:


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## Marginal (Feb 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> *How to spar without sustaining major injuries?:erg:*
> 
> 
> *That is easy after really thinking about it, Do not spar this way you can act like you know what to do when or if you ever get attack.:rofl:*



Just spar with live blades. Then regular sparring will seem trite.


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## terryl965 (Feb 9, 2010)

Marginal said:


> Just spar with live blades. Then regular sparring will seem trite.


 

Look everybody I was just being funny, you know I get it all the time when people gets bumps and bruises. Sometime they have to remember that what they are doing is actually a full contact activity. Sorry if I offended anyone. :asian:


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## Marginal (Feb 9, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Look everybody I was just being funny, you know I get it all the time when people gets bumps and bruises. Sometime they have to remember that what they are doing is actually a full contact activity. Sorry if I offended anyone. :asian:


Nah, I was just poking fun at those guys you visited you who were shouting, "We fight with real knives!" as if that was some kind of great idea.


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## granfire (Feb 10, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Look everybody I was just being funny, you know I get it all the time when people gets bumps and bruises. Sometime they have to remember that what they are doing is actually a full contact activity. Sorry if I offended anyone. :asian:



hahahaha, just had a lolwut moment over this one! ^_^


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## Twin Fist (Feb 10, 2010)

win!



Marginal said:


> Just spar with live blades. Then regular sparring will seem trite.


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## d1jinx (Feb 11, 2010)

I guess if you play football, youre not supposed to tackle????  Maybe play flag football.  Then you can just yank eachothers flag.

Seriously, I know what is ment by sparring with people who try to hurt you when you spar.  If talking dont help, and you tell them to take it down a notch... and they dont...  Return the favor.  KNOCK the **** out of them and see how they like it.  I know most will dissagree, but if someone cannot show you the respect to tone it down and tries to hurt you everytime  KNOCK the **** out of them.  If they are better than you and you cant, punch them in the mouth... HARD.  or kick them in the "lower area", or start blocking with elbows and shins.  Some people fight like that because they know you cant hurt them.  If they begin to associate that them hurting you results in them getting hurt... maybe it will stop.  If it elevates to the next level and gets out of control, the instructor should step in and address BOTH of you.

I guess, like it or not, you need to stand up for yourself and make people realize when they spar you that they can also get hurt.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 11, 2010)

d1jinx said:


> I guess if you play football, youre not supposed to tackle????  Maybe play fag football.  Then you can just yank eachothers flag.
> 
> Seriously, I know what is ment by sparring with people who try to hurt you when you spar.  If talking dont help, and you tell them to take it down a notch... and they dont...  Return the favor.  KNOCK the **** out of them and see how they like it.  I know most will dissagree, but if someone cannot show you the respect to tone it down and tries to hurt you everytime  KNOCK the **** out of them.  If they are better than you and you cant, punch them in the mouth... HARD.  or kick them in the "lower area", or start blocking with elbows and shins.  Some people fight like that because they know you cant hurt them.  If they begin to associate that them hurting you results in them getting hurt... maybe it will stop.  If it elevates to the next level and gets out of control, the instructor should step in and address BOTH of you.
> 
> I guess, like it or not, you need to stand up for yourself and make people realize when they spar you that they can also get hurt.


I agree and disagree.

I've known students who don't get the fact that if they step out of line, I go over beat the crap out of them, I'm "saying" to them they should stop. That's the old school, macho way of doing it.

I've also known students who even talking to them doesn't work. They just don't have the interpersonal skills to adapt to a safe training environment.

But an underbelt shouldn't have to come to a message board to deal with this crap. Furthermore, malicious response on her part could be actionable if she steps out of the bounds of the drill. Just a bad deal all the way around.

Best way I was ever put in my place:

I'm 15, 6'7" 150lbs. I'm twice as tall as a nidan. I fight brownbelts all the time. I think I need to hit HARD. Kick the crap out of people.

I throw two kicks. She gets a funny face. Stops the fight.
Looks right at me, smiles and says: "I can kick hard too."

Somehow my teenage self figured out I may want to adjust to the situation.


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## karatemom (Feb 13, 2010)

Adding my 2 cents here....
In ITA TKD sparring starts at green belt level. I've never been of the opinion that the higher ranks should try to "beat up" the lower ranks to "teach" them how to spar. I had an issue w/ a bb when I was green belt who kept hitting me in the head over and over hard because I didn't block and I was just learning. It really upset me, I talked to my instructor who recommended that I talk to the bb and I went to him and asked him to help me learn what I need to be doing, we've gotten along fine ever since. One thing I tend to do because I'm short is move in on people which is sometimes considered aggressive and where I tend to get hit more so I have to do better at blocking and getting out of the way. The other thing is I've had to spar a lot of teenagers and have had to tell them to tone it down because I'm in my 40's and not interested in MMA type sparring or people trying to intentionally hurt me and I need to be able to go to work tomorrow. All that being said, it is a contact sport and you will get hit. Higher ranks should have waaaaay better self-control than the lower ranks. Sparring is a continual learning process and I don't spar each person the same way, it depends on their rank and how they spar but if I am with an new green belt I go more into a teaching mode more than a full out sparring mode unless they are ready for that. I still have a lot to learn at 2nd Degree BB - there will always be room for improvement. Hang in there and talk to your instructor, the other students and let them know how you feel, if they don't listen and take the opportunity to teach from this then you should find another place to train. Again, this is my opinion based on my own experience with TKD.


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## l_uk3y (Feb 14, 2010)

This has been a bit of a problem in our club at late. (not so much now but last year their were a few injuries). Therefore we don't get nearly as much sparring in as we used to.

Usually its the more experienced people that seem to be lacking control as well. I like to think I have very good control (to the point where people tell me not to be afraid to make a bit more contact). Regularly during sparring I will perform what I believe to be a "scoring" kick whether it be round or straight to either body or head but I delib leave it a fraction short or touch with no penetration then cop a fairly hard spinning back kick to the guts as a result and end up winded. Always followed by the resultant sorry from the other person.  

If you cant control your spin kicks then don't spar with it until you can. Likewise with any technique. Just like if you don't believe you can land safely from a throw/takedown. Please let me know beforehand so we can work around it. Nobody likes unnecessary injuries


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2010)

karatemom said:


> Adding my 2 cents here....
> In ITA TKD sparring starts at green belt level. I've never been of the opinion that the higher ranks should try to "beat up" the lower ranks to "teach" them how to spar. I had an issue w/ a bb when I was green belt who kept hitting me in the head over and over hard because I didn't block and I was just learning. It really upset me, I talked to my instructor who recommended that I talk to the bb and I went to him and asked him to help me learn what I need to be doing, we've gotten along fine ever since. One thing I tend to do because I'm short is move in on people which is sometimes considered aggressive and where I tend to get hit more so I have to do better at blocking and getting out of the way. The other thing is I've had to spar a lot of teenagers and have had to tell them to tone it down because I'm in my 40's and not interested in MMA type sparring or people trying to intentionally hurt me and I need to be able to go to work tomorrow. All that being said, it is a contact sport and you will get hit. Higher ranks should have waaaaay better self-control than the lower ranks. Sparring is a continual learning process and I don't spar each person the same way, it depends on their rank and how they spar but if I am with an new green belt I go more into a teaching mode more than a full out sparring mode unless they are ready for that. I still have a lot to learn at 2nd Degree BB - there will always be room for improvement. Hang in there and talk to your instructor, the other students and let them know how you feel, if they don't listen and take the opportunity to teach from this then you should find another place to train. Again, this is my opinion based on my own experience with TKD.




I wondered where you were! 

Did you enjoy the snow?


:-offtopic (always wanted to use this, my babbling, not her post!)

But it really boils down to communication an respect.


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## terryl965 (Feb 14, 2010)

karatemom said:


> Adding my 2 cents here....
> In ITA TKD sparring starts at green belt level. I've never been of the opinion that the higher ranks should try to "beat up" the lower ranks to "teach" them how to spar. I had an issue w/ a bb when I was green belt who kept hitting me in the head over and over hard because I didn't block and I was just learning. It really upset me, I talked to my instructor who recommended that I talk to the bb and I went to him and asked him to help me learn what I need to be doing, we've gotten along fine ever since. One thing I tend to do because I'm short is move in on people which is sometimes considered aggressive and where I tend to get hit more so I have to do better at blocking and getting out of the way. The other thing is I've had to spar a lot of teenagers and have had to tell them to tone it down because I'm in my 40's and not interested in MMA type sparring or people trying to intentionally hurt me and I need to be able to go to work tomorrow. All that being said, it is a contact sport and you will get hit. Higher ranks should have waaaaay better self-control than the lower ranks. Sparring is a continual learning process and I don't spar each person the same way, it depends on their rank and how they spar but if I am with an new green belt I go more into a teaching mode more than a full out sparring mode unless they are ready for that. I still have a lot to learn at 2nd Degree BB - there will always be room for improvement. Hang in there and talk to your instructor, the other students and let them know how you feel, if they don't listen and take the opportunity to teach from this then you should find another place to train. Again, this is my opinion based on my own experience with TKD.


 

Karatemom I am a little congused about sparring so late in one training. Do you do any S.D. and if so is it actual takedowns and throws? You see people are under the impression when you reach green belt which is mid belt for me means you have the common sense to know a bit about distance and moving while sparring. I believe  a club can have both id it is worked on from the beginning of ones training.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> Karatemom I am a little congused about sparring so late in one training. Do you do any S.D. and if so is it actual takedowns and throws? You see people are under the impression when you reach green belt which is mid belt for me means you have the common sense to know a bit about distance and moving while sparring. I believe  a club can have both id it is worked on from the beginning of ones training.




It takes about 4 month continuous training to get your ITA green belt.
First we condition our students with one steps - sort of - to feet and fists coming their way 

(there is one takedown in the yellow one steps...)


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2010)

Karatemom, it's a common misconception that MMA sparring is full on and people get hurt. It's only full contact in the actual competition, if anything it's more controlled and less contact than your average club sparring. Fighters are working on specifics such as using angles, takedowns, judging disatances, techniques, speed etc not on whether they can take a hit. No fighter needs to have to pull out of a fight because of injuries incurred in training. If the teenagers and yourself think 'full on' sparring is 'MMA type' sparring then you are all mistaken.
In our traditional classes one learns to spar from the start of your training at white belt. By green you will have a good idea of what to do.


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## terryl965 (Feb 14, 2010)

granfire said:


> It takes about 4 month continuous training to get your ITA green belt.
> First we condition our students with one steps - sort of - to feet and fists coming their way
> 
> (there is one takedown in the yellow one steps...)


 
You got to be kidding me in my school it takes about 18 to 24 months to get to green. In four months you are maybe ready for a yellow stripe, my beginners belts stay that way for at;east a year. Why doeas the ITA geet people to mid belt so fast, not knocking it but trying to ynderstand the way of teaching, I believe the basics take a longtime to get prety good at it.


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## granfire (Feb 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> You got to be kidding me in my school it takes about 18 to 24 months to get to green. In four months you are maybe ready for a yellow stripe, my beginners belts stay that way for at;east a year. Why doeas the ITA geet people to mid belt so fast, not knocking it but trying to ynderstand the way of teaching, I believe the basics take a longtime to get prety good at it.




*Shrug*

lately the philosophy behind the organization has baffled me.

Anyhow. Is there a reason not to award belts in a quick fashion?

It takes about 2 years to get your BB, and then you can grind time and such till you are old and die (and not to mention politics) to get 9 degrees of black under your belt.

When you look at it side by side, the time to get aproprate ranks (6th is called Master, with about 20 years training, other companies have you be a 4th with 20 years..) it come out to about the same.

It's deco, really, the rank is what you make it. 

White you learn your stances and strikes plus a front kick, add a round kick at yellow, sparring at green (4 month at green belt) 

The group has produced some good artists, so it can't be all bad.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 14, 2010)

They may not have a linear belt progression. I know my school doesn't.

10th Kyu to 8th Kyu: 2-5 months
8th Kyu to 6th Kyu: 3-4 months

At this point they have been training from a little under half a year to a full year and are "Green Belt" but are moving into the full curriculum (can now learn a limited set of throws, locks, learning falling etc.)

6th Kyu to 4th Kyu: 6 months - 1 year
4th Kyu to 2nd Kyu: 1 - 2 years
2nd Kyu to 1st Kyu: 1 - 2 years
1st Kyu to Black: 1 - 2 years

In my school I would say 4th Kyu/Gup/Grade would be mid and reached in about a year to a year an a half. Black coming 3 to 5 years after reaching 4th Kyu.


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## Tez3 (Feb 14, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> You got to be kidding me in my school it takes about 18 to 24 months to get to green. In four months you are maybe ready for a yellow stripe, my beginners belts stay that way for at;east a year. Why doeas the ITA geet people to mid belt so fast, not knocking it but trying to ynderstand the way of teaching, I believe the basics take a longtime to get prety good at it.


 
I agree with you, there seems to be an almost indecent rush to get people to their black belts in many schools. Four months to green is almost indecently fast and just two years to black is far faster than anywhere I know. The first four months in places I've been in Wado Ryu, TSD and TKD you haven't graded at all yet, the first belt is usually graded for after 4-6 months. There's a satisfaction in taking your time to get good solid basics under your belt!


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## myusername (Feb 14, 2010)

*TKJOJO *- My advice is to communicate with your sparring partners if they going to hard. Simply tell them and you will probably be surprised as to their response. Most people don't know that they are going in too hard and the excessive contact bar can be different depending on the individual.

Also communicate with your instructor. But pick the right time if you are going to challenge an instruction! The right time will probably be before or after a lesson.

There is a lot of macho nonsense in this game sometimes that can easily be avoided with effective ordinary communication. So many times I have watched a match and seen somebody recieve a hit that they obviously considered to be too hard so immediately give their opponent a hard dig back. The original offender, probably unaware that their initial strike was considered too hard, then gets offended and hits back harder. And so the esculation begins! Both competitors thinking that they are only hitting hard because the other is hitting too hard when all one of them needed to do was just say something.

Myself, if I am training with a beginner who is swinging or someone who lacks control then I will say to them "try not to hit so hard as when you get to competition the ref will deduct points for excessive contact" It is hard for some to learn that control especially if they are carrying some weight or lack flexibility. Therefore I never take it personally and I will go extra light on them to role model good behaviour.

A pity more people don't just talk to each other!


What I would say is that accidents do happen and doing a martial art you can expect a few bruises.

I do disagree with the idea that you are to expect hard contact in a semi contact sport sparring session as you need to learn how to take a knock for "the street" as some have suggested earlier. Semi contact free sparring is just that and has absolutely nothing to do with self defence.

If you are to be training and conditioning yourself for a hard knock for self defence purposes then that should be well explained to you first so that there are no surprises.


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Feb 14, 2010)

myusername said:


> I do disagree with the idea that you are to expect hard contact in a semi contact sport sparring session as you need to learn how to take a knock for "the street" as some have suggested earlier. Semi contact free sparring is just that and has absolutely nothing to do with self defence.
> 
> If you are to be training and conditioning yourself for a hard knock for self defence purposes then that should be well explained to you first so that there are no surprises.


 
I was one of those who suggested that one of the benefits of sparring is that it teaches us to handle getting hit. I'm coming from a kenpo background, and that is the mindset in my art. I overlooked the possibility that a person could be training in TKD as a sport, rather than for SD purposes. No criticism was intended.


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## l_uk3y (Feb 15, 2010)

Yeah but there becomes a limit. I am quite the fan of copping a controlled kick or being punched in the face. The unexpected contact sort of shocks me and starts to bring the adrenalin in. This to me is good experience and useful. 

What isn't good to me is when you take shots that all of a sudden mean your off training to recover and effects your job and your life at home etc.  Remember the topic of this convo is "Major Injuries" which I see as injuries that you take home and they hold you back for recovery.  Accidents do happen but my belief is that most are avoidable.

As a guide from general MA injuries (whether it be sparring or general) I would have taken  3 months of last year off training. (Although a Hamstring injury was 2 months). 
Several others from our class took similar time off due to knee/ankle injuries etc.
Thats a considerable chuck of the year off just through injuries that realistically should only be a few weeks taking proper accidents into consideration.


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## jks9199 (Feb 15, 2010)

l_uk3y said:


> As a guide from general MA injuries (whether it be sparring or general) I would have taken  3 months of last year off training. (Although a Hamstring injury was 2 months).
> Several others from our class took similar time off due to knee/ankle injuries etc.
> Thats a considerable chuck of the year off just through injuries that realistically should only be a few weeks taking proper accidents into consideration.



That's a pattern that's worrisome.  You've got several people losing training time and probably some work time due to the same sorts of injuries...  There's a clue in that.  Something's not being done properly; I don't know if they're permitting techniques that they shouldn't or if there's a control problem in sparring, or if they're pushing students to do things that they aren't ready for or if there's a problem with the training area... but somebody should be looking into the problem and addressing it.

As an example, when I was in the academy, we had to run an obstacle course.  After several people got hurt in one element, the staff stopped the exercise, and looked at what was going on, then addressed that before we continued.  It was done on the spot -- and it's what I'd expect.  A pad was slipping when people landed on it, and so it was anchored before we continued.


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## AlanE (Feb 25, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> That's a pattern that's worrisome. You've got several people losing training time and probably some work time due to the same sorts of injuries... There's a clue in that. Something's not being done properly; I don't know if they're permitting techniques that they shouldn't or if there's a control problem in sparring, or if they're pushing students to do things that they aren't ready for or if there's a problem with the training area... but somebody should be looking into the problem and addressing it.
> 
> As an example, when I was in the academy, we had to run an obstacle course. After several people got hurt in one element, the staff stopped the exercise, and looked at what was going on, then addressed that before we continued. It was done on the spot -- and it's what I'd expect. A pad was slipping when people landed on it, and so it was anchored before we continued.


 
Perfect example, jks9199. This is worrisome, indeed. As well explained before and with respect, students should speak with their instructors before class if there exists a systemic injury problem. Prepare to change schools. How can leaders not know what's going on and protect? Typical sounds in some dojos every so often: First person follows script, controls contact, and gets slammed back. No one to help. First person does not hold back the next time. Escalation in physical pain exchanges is not ideal! Alternatively, cowering from one's opponent is a colossal waste of time, money, your self-esteem, your concentration, and your body. 

TkJojo and l_uk3y, be prepared for action using all the lower-the-car-dealer's-price techniques you learned (be prepared, informed, specific, cool, serious, still cool, and finally appreciative). This is the next victory you must win for your precious time, money, body, and self-esteem. Be sure it's not just some toughening and learning to get along that is required (doesn't sound like it). That whole playing along with outlandish, undisciplined, and barely concerned leaders toughening nonsense has so many bad implications it's best not to go there now. Take charge of your experience because you're a human being before you're a martial artist - which when responsibly taught will have you become A HAPPIER HUMAN BEING. Teach them a little something, too. I'll cross my fingers so you can continue looking confident without doing that during "the talk."


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> I use ax kick all the time in sparring. It is one of the easist kick to control.
> Here is a clip of a couple of our kids sparring with control (light contact). You will see a couple of ax kicks with control.
> [yt]XFhHz3qaFWA[/yt]



I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?


Rules of a sparring match mold the fighting stance. It hurts me to see that, but if that's what they wanna do. People say the same stuff about the style of sparring I do as well!


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 25, 2010)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> I was one of those who suggested that one of the benefits of sparring is that it teaches us to handle getting hit. I'm coming from a kenpo background, and that is the mindset in my art. I overlooked the possibility that a person could be training in TKD as a sport, rather than for SD purposes. No criticism was intended.



Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.

My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.
I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.

Self defense is -a- factor why I practice martial arts, but it is definitely not the only one or the most important one.


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## granfire (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.
> 
> *My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.*
> I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.
> ...



This is probably one of the most significant posts in this debate, including 'MA is sport' 

Most of us have a day job and can't afford to get hurt 'playing' 
Or how good is your SD when you are hurt from training anyhow.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Even if you train for SD, training with medium contact and training hard is still orders of magnitude better than not training at all.
> 
> My brain is what provides my livelihood. If I cannot look at a monitor for 12 hours per day and stay focused, I have a serious problem. *Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood*, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury.
> I have had one severe concussion in my life when I was young, and that was enough. It took long enough to get better. I know accidents can happen in MA training and I accept that. But I am not stepping onto the mat with some who is going to do his best to hit me really hard.
> ...


Hmmm...wouldn't the same apply to any race living in any area doing any job? Not sure what you are getting at with how your statement was worded. Also we are talking about bumps and bruises not injuries of that magnitude.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?


As JWLuiza has stated the rules of the sport dictate where the hands are. Because of no punching to the face in the sport, it is better to keep your hands down as 85% of the scoreing is done to the trunk with the feet only. Plus the way to block any head or face kicks is not to block the kick at the strike target but to prevent the kick from coming up in the first places. So even when blocking head shots from a kick is easier to keep your hands down and trap the leg from coming up. This is not SD but a sport of kicking. SD or even boxing would not dictate that you do this.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> Hmmm...wouldn't the same apply to any race living in any area doing any job? Not sure what you are getting at with how your statement was worded. Also we are talking about bumps and bruises not injuries of that magnitude.


In the US Race predicts exposure to violence above and beyond SES, but not to the same level as SES. So statistically it is a mitigating factor. What that means, no one knows, but he was just pointing out how unlikely it was he would need it. And given that the title of the thread is serious injury, we shouldn't be talking about just bumps and bruises.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> In the US Race predicts exposure to violence above and beyond SES, but not to the same level as SES. So statistically it is a mitigating factor. What that means, no one knows, but he was just pointing out how unlikely it was he would need it. And given that the title of the thread is serious injury, we shouldn't be talking about just bumps and bruises.


No, he was not stating that at all. If that was the case then why is he even bothered with martial arts at all. He prefaced his statement with how his brain is his livelihood and then he said he had a problem with the concept of full contact anything, being a white middle class male in a safe neighborhood. There are plenty Mexican, black, Asian, and other middle class males and females living in safe neighborhoods, not to mention that there are plenty of whites also residing in the not so desirable poor or bad neighborhoods also. Not sure why the adjective of white was needed at all. He could have just as well said that he was a middle class citizen living in a safe neighborhood, regardless of the so called statistical mitigating factors. It was just an unnecessary comment no matter how you look at it.

If you really look at what you think he was trying to say he simply had to state that he was an engineer and nothing more. The rest was simply uncalled for.

Plus his statement still applies to anyone doing any job. Not just white engineers. I know plenty of engineers that are not white.

Also the OP of this thread did not sustain a serious injury and simply looks at bumps and brusies as such. A black eye is not a serious injury.


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## granfire (Feb 25, 2010)

You might not like it, but what you are and where you live has a great influence on whether or not you are likely to be in any type of altercation.

It has been a while since I read it, so I am hard pressed to give sources, but studies have shown that The majority of crimes are perpetrated by a minority (not in terms of race though) of people, and crime is locally centered.

I am sure there are plenty of other studies that show - all anti profiling efforts be damned - that there is a correlation between race, mostly education and location on how liekly it is that crimes are happening. So as affluent white white collar individual, he is less likely to need what he learns in the dojang in real life.

(same as women most likely need to beat up a  friend or relative, if not their own spouse to defend themselves against an attack and not against an unknown boogieman!)


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> No, he was not stating that at all. If that was the case then why is he even bothered with martial arts at all. He prefaced his statement with how his brain is his livelihood and then he said he had a problem with the concept of full contact anything, being a white middle class male in a safe neighborhood. There are plenty Mexican, black, Asian, and other middle class males and females living in safe neighborhoods, not to mention that there are plenty of whites also residing in the not so desirable poor or bad neighborhoods also. Not sure why the adjective of white was needed at all. He could have just as well said that he was a middle class citizen living in a safe neighborhood, regardless of the so called statistical mitigating factors. It was just an unnecessary comment no matter how you look at it.
> 
> If you really look at what you think he was trying to say he simply had to state that he was an engineer and nothing more. The rest was simply uncalled for.
> 
> ...


And statistically, he has a valid point, not as a perpetrator of crime but as a victim of violence. It's data. You can partial out the variance due to SES and still find an effect due to race. Everything you said is true, but it doesn't change the data. Sorry. He wasn't proclaiming his worth as higher because he was white. If you think that you're reading too much into it.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

From a Community Psychology Journal:


> his study examined the associations between household income,  race/ethnicity, and exposure to violence in a nationally representative  sample  of youth. Participants included a national probability sample of  adolescents (ages 12-17), who completed a telephone interview that  assessed lifetime occurrences of witnessing violence, receipt of  physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault.  Results indicated that as household income increased prevalence of  witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical  assault, and sexual assault decreased for Caucasian but not  African-American or Hispanic youth. In addition to the interaction of  household income with race/ethnicity, a main effect of race/ethnicity  across income groups was apparent for witnessing violence. More  specifically, African-American and Hispanic youth reported significantly  higher rates of witnessing violence at each income level relative to  their Caucasian counterparts. Findings from this nationally  representative  sample of youth suggest that it may be simplistic to  interpret high rates of violence exposure among minority youth as due to  their disproportionate representation among the economically  disadvantaged in the United States. This study illustrates the  importance of examining risk and protective factors separately for each  type of violence experienced by youth, and underscores the need to  assess the generalizability of risk and protective factors across  racial/ethnic groups.


Just one example.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

granfire said:


> You might not like it, but what you are and where you live has a great influence on whether or not you are likely to be in any type of altercation.
> 
> It has been a while since I read it, so I am hard pressed to give sources, but studies have shown that The majority of crimes are perpetrated by a minority (not in terms of race though) of people, and crime is locally centered.
> 
> ...


All understood grandfire. But lets look at the statement again. *"Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood".*

Now we can eliminate race and color from the statement according to your explanation above because middle class and engineering indicate educated and he already states that his neighborhood is safe. Now according to you by your statement above, race, color and creed has nothing to do with anything. It is economics and education with both having equal influence on one another. So you can replace the word white with black, brown, red, yellow, tan. So if that is the case then why even state your color, race or national origin.

We can take the reverse and say *"being a poor black male in a bad crime ridden neighborhood"* and still eliminate the word black or any color because as you stated, poor and bad neighborhood is what are the dictating factors. So again black can be replaced by any color, thus not being needed in the statement at all.

So not matter how one wants to sugar coat it, his statement was an unnecessary one.


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## granfire (Feb 25, 2010)

your assessment is sadly false.

At current state of our society race still matters if you are being attacked or not.

Many thing play into that but it still holds true.

Sometimes being Political correct is still being wrong.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> All understood grandfire. But lets look at the statement again. *"Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood".*
> 
> Now we can eliminate race and color from the statement according to your explanation above because middle class and engineering indicate educated and he already states that his neighborhood is safe. Now according to you by your statement above, race, color and creed has nothing to do with anything. It is economics and education with both having equal influence on one another. So you can replace the word white with black, brown, red, yellow, tan. So if that is the case then why even state your color, race or national origin.
> 
> ...


The consensus of sociology research and community psychology research says you're wrong.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> From a Community Psychology Journal:
> 
> his study examined the associations between household income, race/ethnicity, and exposure to violence in a nationally representative sample of youth. Participants included a national probability sample of adolescents (ages 12-17), who completed a telephone interview that assessed lifetime occurrences of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault. Results indicated that as household income increased prevalence of witnessing violence, receipt of physically abusive punishment, physical assault, and sexual assault decreased for Caucasian but not African-American or Hispanic youth. In addition to the interaction of household income with race/ethnicity, a main effect of race/ethnicity across income groups was apparent for witnessing violence. More specifically, African-American and Hispanic youth reported significantly higher rates of witnessing violence at each income level relative to their Caucasian counterparts. Findings from this nationally representative sample of youth suggest that it may be simplistic to interpret high rates of violence exposure among minority youth as due to their disproportionate representation among the economically disadvantaged in the United States. This study illustrates the importance of examining risk and protective factors separately for each type of violence experienced by youth, and underscores the need to assess the generalizability of risk and protective factors across racial/ethnic groups.
> 
> Just one example.


This study is a joke. How much did the income rise? Did the participants move out of their respective neighborhoods? What about relatives that still live in such environment and the so called increased income participants need/want to still visit the lower income neighborhoods due to relitives or even close friends that they have bonded with. There are so many factors that I can list that can skew this so called study it isn't even funny. Plus this was a phone study. There was not and actual first hand study. Show me a study that state this from a born in situation. Study a black family that had kids born in middle to upper class neighborhoods. This so called study is flawed by design.

If you believe this study then all the middle upper class people better watch out, because this study indicated that all the crime stated is also in those middle to upper class neighborhoods. It only takes common sense to see the flaws of this study. How can one still see the same level of violence if out of the violent areas unless they are still in the same areas for some reason.:nuke:


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

Just one study I pulled really quickly. All studies have flaws. Triangulation of research has hit home the same point. Hit google scholar up and see for yourself. Minorities are at greater risk for exposure to violence. It's something that should drive policy when trying to protect people, and it is something I used as a therapist to understand the difference from growing up a white middle class male and counseling a wide diversity of patients. Pull up google scholar and look for yourself.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> The consensus of sociology research and community psychology research says you're wrong.


OK you believe that. Common sense dictates otherwise. I read and hear all the studies and research but they do nothing more than try to fit random shapes all in the same hole. You can't take a junk yard dog and simply place him in a different environment and expect him to adhere to the new environment without some extensive training. And even then not all will adhere. This is the same for people. Your studies are too simpleminded, they dont go beyond the surface.


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## granfire (Feb 25, 2010)

Still, what is your point?
You know of studies that refute the mentioned above results?

Not trying to be a smartalec, but being curious.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> OK you believe that. Common sense dictates otherwise. I read and hear all the studies and research but they do nothing more than try to fit random shapes all in the same hole. You can't take a junk yard dog and simply place him in a different environment and expect him to adhere to the new environment without some extensive training. And even then not all will adhere. This is the same for people. Your studies are too simpleminded, they dont go beyond the surface.


It's amazing how often common sense is wrong. ANd sadly we can't do a RCT to determine this effect, so it will always be a less than ideal study...

I'm just wondering how many journal articles you've read on the subject.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> OK you believe that. Common sense dictates otherwise. I read and hear all the studies and research but they do nothing more than try to fit random shapes all in the same hole. *You can't take a junk yard dog and simply place him in a different environment and expect him to adhere to the new environment without some extensive training. And even then not all will adhere. This is the same for people. Your studies are too simpleminded, they don&#8217;t go beyond the surface*.



Could you clarify this point?

And just in case you missed it:
Just one study I pulled really quickly. All studies have flaws.  Triangulation of research has hit home the same point. Hit google  scholar up and see for yourself. Minorities are at greater risk for  exposure to violence. It's something that should drive policy when  trying to protect people, and it is something I used as a therapist to  understand the difference from growing up a white middle class male and  counseling a wide diversity of patients. Pull up google scholar and look  for yourself.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

granfire said:


> your assessment is sadly false.
> 
> At current state of our society race still matters if you are being attacked or not.
> 
> ...


Wrong. Only if you are not really understanding what you see. Race does not dictate the situation. Race just happened to be end result. Why one race vs. another has a multitude of factors that determine that. One being that people don't understand just that. It is not because someone is black or Hispanic. It just happens to be that society has dictated these to be the case in the US. Go to some other country and it will be some other race. Even some white races.

As I understand what you are trying to say is that the color is the reason. That is not the case. The color just happened to be the product of what society dictated. If not then every black person everywhere would be a violent, ignorant, killer. And outside the US and in some part of the world where some white people are the poor and oppressed then that would be the case for them as a whole also. 

You can't blame the color.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> Could you clarify this point?
> 
> And just in case you missed it:
> Just one study I pulled really quickly. All studies have flaws. Triangulation of research has hit home the same point. Hit google scholar up and see for yourself. Minorities are at greater risk for exposure to violence. It's something that should drive policy when trying to protect people, and it is something I used as a therapist to understand the difference from growing up a white middle class male and counseling a wide diversity of patients. Pull up google scholar and look for yourself.


OK, Let me see if I can make this as simple as possible. Based on your studies words, the risk is from minorities. A minority can be any race or color. Now is it the minority or the race that is the problem? Also why is the minority the issue? Is is because of their color or the society that they live in that dictates the problem? Answer those questions and you will do two things. Give you an answer and show your face.

Studies are just that, studies. They dont explain the why. They just give you simple data. Making sense of the date is another thing. So when you make blanket statements and then hide behind a study, you show your true intelligence.

You see I think racism is nothing more than a lack of intelligence and nothing more. And this is on all sides.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

I think you have a serious misunderstanding of research methodology as well as the point I am trying to make.

Minorities seem to lack some of the protective factors against experiencing violence (I wonder if you've been assuming that I mean minorities are violent, that is not what I am saying.). Studies like this are necessary; once we see that statistically SES and environment do not explain all the variance, new research avenues are then open to go out and find out why this is. Research and science are always trying to figure out why. One study is never the answer, just another question waiting to happen. Overlapping results, consistent findings, looking at variables....these studies do end up explaining things. Research and statistical analysis are powerful ways of understanding. They are why we know things like homeopathy and abstinance education don't work.

I also am saddened that you might cast aspersions on my intelligence and suggest my view point is racist. Ad hominems aren't really appropriate responses to an argument.

By the way when I was talking about policy decisions, I was talking about programs for minority youth that would afford them more protection against violence.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> No, he was not stating that at all. If that was the case then why is he even bothered with martial arts at all. He prefaced his statement with how his brain is his livelihood and then he said he had a problem with the concept of full contact anything, being a white middle class male in a safe neighborhood. There are plenty Mexican, black, Asian, and other middle class males and females living in safe neighborhoods, not to mention that there are plenty of whites also residing in the not so desirable poor or bad neighborhoods also. Not sure why the adjective of white was needed at all. He could have just as well said that he was a middle class citizen living in a safe neighborhood, regardless of the so called statistical mitigating factors. It was just an unnecessary comment no matter how you look at it.
> 
> If you really look at what you think he was trying to say he simply had to state that he was an engineer and nothing more. The rest was simply uncalled for.
> 
> ...



I think you are reading the wrong things into my words, and there is no need to be offended. My statement contained 2 different parts:

1) I depend on my brain and the ability to look at computer screens for my job.
2) Being a white middle class male in a 'safe' job in a 'safe' neighborhood DID have a point in the conversation. I replied to a poster regarding the added value of full contact for self defense. Because of who I am, where I live and what I do, the statistics for my demographic make it unlikely that I will ever be in a situation where the added value of full contact sparring will make be significant.

Ergo, the risk of concussion is much higher than the risk of not doing full contact, and since the consequences of a concussion can be very bad for me because of what I do for a living, I forego full contact but the self defense value of what I do is still much better than doing nothing.

If I was a colored factory worker living in schaerbeek (bad place near brussels) then the consequences of a concussion would not be as serious, and the likelihood of needing the added self defense value imparted by full contact sparring would mean that the numbers work out in favor of doing so.

I really did not mean to offend, but my demographic was important to the point I was making, and I am not the one responsible for the differences between demographics and the likelihood of ending up in violent situations. And if you think I am a racist, then you are really way off.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> OK, Let me see if I can make this as simple as possible. Based on your studies words, the risk is *from *minorities. A minority can be any race or color. Now is it the minority or the race that is the problem? Also why is the minority the issue? Is is because of their color or the society that they live in that dictates the problem? Answer those questions and you will do two things. Give you an answer and show your face.



No, the risk is FOR those minorities.
I don't know about the US, but colored people living in bad places have a higher likelihood of being a victim of acts of aggression.

And I would thank you for not calling me a racist.
I have grown up since with 2 colored adoptive sisters and I have never once considered race or color to be a meaningful factor to judge someone.

Mentioning the crime / victim stats to make my point does not make a me a racist. And I agree that in different countries, the stats might be reversed, or change over time. Being white in south africa for example has a different impact on your risk now than 20 years ago.

In most western countries, being in my demographic means the risks are much lower than being the colored factor worker from schaerbeek. I am not trying to come up with reasons why that is the case. You are right that is a whole can of wojms. It does not change the fact that it does. It does matter when having to weigh risks.


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## granfire (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> OK, Let me see if I can make this as simple as possible. Based on your studies words, the risk is from minorities. A minority can be any race or color. Now is it the minority or the race that is the problem? Also why is the minority the issue? Is is because of their color or the society that they live in that dictates the problem? Answer those questions and you will do two things. Give you an answer and show your face.
> 
> Studies are just that, studies. They dont explain the why. They just give you simple data. Making sense of the date is another thing. So when you make blanket statements and then hide behind a study, you show your true intelligence.
> 
> You see I think racism is nothing more than a lack of intelligence and nothing more. And this is on all sides.




I think you are reading things into above studies or the mentioning there of that simply are not there. 
You are making this a racial issue when it simply is not. At least not in the way you make it out to be.

As you said, simple data, to fill it with meaning is another story.

Race is not a product of social dynamics. That would be saying a person is black because he/she is poor.

On the other hand, when it is pretty much proven that certain demographics are not likely to become victims of violent crime, how does that make them racist in any shape or form.

Racism is putting people down because of the color of their skin, not noting that such differences exist.

The correlation of who is likely to become a victim does not equal likening them to be the perpetrator.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> I think you have a serious misunderstanding of research methodology as well as the point I am trying to make.
> 
> Minorities seem to lack some of the protective factors against experiencing violence (I wonder if you've been assuming that I mean minorities are violent, that is not what I am saying.). Studies like this are necessary; once we see that statistically SES and environment do not explain all the variance, new research avenues are then open to go out and find out why this is. Research and science are always trying to figure out why. One study is never the answer, just another question waiting to happen. Overlapping results, consistent findings, looking at variables....these studies do end up explaining things. Research and statistical analysis are powerful ways of understanding. They are why we know things like homeopathy and abstinance education don't work.
> 
> ...


Social behaviors have been studied since the beginning of man's time. The studies have clearly defined the issues. The problem is that in order to solve the issues the ones in power need to give up some of that status or power. Not really going to happen.

People in an oppressed economic state unfortunately acclimate to their situation, taking them out of that situation will not change their behaviors overnight, if at all. Not to mention that most of the people closest to them (still in the oppressed situation) will continue to influence their ways. Thus without the other perks of simple life long better economic comforts such as education, said people won't be able to keep or sustain their new found status. But your studies can't tell you that. Only living or being the few that overcame this can you understand this.

I am not saying that studies should not be done. What I am saying is don't look at the studies and draw your conclusions based on simple data that really only states just that, data. There are many reasons why something is, that studies can't explain.

Most social programs don't work. Why? Well because you cant simply give someone something and then expect them to succeed because of it. Give a poor person a million dollars and they will be broke or dead within 3 years. Why? Because they don't have the life teachings in a million dollar life style, they still think and behave as they were conditioned to be. Why do so many pro ball players go broke after playing ball is over? They make millions over their career, but they don't have the life skills beyond that. Even though they go to college, they are simply a tool for making even more money for someone that has those life skills needed to maintain their status. They are taken care of as long as they can produce. After that they are on their own. Now what? Yes a few do make it out and succeed, and their offspring have a better life and never get to know the other side. They (the offsprings) tend to not only maybe play ball but become doctors and lawyers or run businesses. This is because their life conditioning is different than their fathers and fathers before them.

Again, the OP that stated he was a white anything, really made no difference, as white happens to be the status elite here in this country. By saying it implies that he believes he is better than those who are not.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I think you are reading the wrong things into my words, and there is no need to be offended. My statement contained 2 different parts:
> 
> 1) I depend on my brain and the ability to look at computer screens for my job.
> 2) Being a white middle class male in a 'safe' job in a 'safe' neighborhood DID have a point in the conversation. I replied to a poster regarding the added value of full contact for self defense. Because of who I am, where I live and what I do, the statistics for my demographic make it unlikely that I will ever be in a situation where the added value of full contact sparring will make be significant.
> ...


Wow!!! Just read what you stated. All I can do is shake my head. Why would it not be as serious? A concussion is a concussion and is serious for anyone regardless of race, color, or economic status. To make the statement you did is laughable. What about a white factory worker living in Schaerbeek? Is the concussion more serious? I wish you a wonderful day, and my god bless.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> No, the risk is FOR those minorities.
> I don't know about the US, but colored people living in bad places have a higher likelihood of being a victim of acts of aggression.


So it is because they are black, not because they are economically oppressed and can't afford to educate themselves? OK you made your point.


Bruno@MT said:


> *And I would thank you for not calling me a racist.*
> *I have grown up since with 2 colored adoptive sisters and I have never once considered race or color to be a meaningful factor to judge someone.*


Even black people can be racist against other black people. Many racist don't believe they are.



Bruno@MT said:


> Mentioning the crime / victim stats to make my point does not make a me a racist. And I agree that in different countries, the stats might be reversed, or change over time. Being white in south africa for example has a different impact on your risk now than 20 years ago.


You did not mention any stats, someone else did. You simply picked a poor choice of words to make a statement.



Bruno@MT said:


> In most western countries, being in my demographic means the risks are much lower than being the colored factor worker from schaerbeek. I am not trying to come up with reasons why that is the case. You are right that is a whole can of wojms. It does not change the fact that it does. It does matter when having to weigh risks.


There are many colored folks (as you call them) that are also in your same situation.

The problem is that the stats produced by studies are not all inclusive. You cannot just toss out the percentage of people that don't fit in to the studies or stats. But it seems that some of you do. You just make statements that are all inclusive or exclusive. That is just wrong.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

granfire said:


> *I think you are reading things into above studies or the mentioning there of that simply are not there.*
> You are making this a racial issue when it simply is not. At least not in the way you make it out to be.
> 
> *As you said, simple data, to fill it with meaning is another story.*


Ofcourse I am. That is my point exactly.



granfire said:


> Race is not a product of social dynamics. That would be saying a person is black because he/she is poor.


Ding ding ding...Now someone that understands what I am saying.



granfire said:


> On the other hand, when it is pretty much proven that certain demographics are not likely to become victims of violent crime, how does that make them racist in any shape or form.


Why? It can be any race that lives in that demographic. Just because the majority in that group happens to be one color or another does not mean that it is all inclusive or exclusive. Not every black is bad. Not every white is good. And most in a bad economic situation don't chose to be bad for the simple sake of being bad. They are doing what they feel they have to in order to survive.


granfire said:


> *Racism is putting people down because of the color of their skin, not noting that such differences exist.*
> 
> The correlation of who is likely to become a victim does not equal likening them to be the perpetrator.


Read the statement that got this part of the disscussion started again. His statement was very demeaning by context, regardless if he knew it, meant it, or not.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> The problem is that the stats produced by studies are not all inclusive. You cannot just toss out the percentage of people that don't fit in to the studies or stats. But it seems that some of you do. You just make statements that are all inclusive or exclusive. That is just wrong.



Again, you are showing a very clear misunderstanding of "stats". Stats are not deterministic, they are descriptive. Look up multiple regression, part and partialing of variance, hell just look at a basic stats book. If what you were saying is true, the models wouldn't show a significant coefficient for race when confounders were accounted for. The stats ARE all inclusive.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> .
> Why? It can be any race that lives in that demographic. Just because the majority in that group happens to be one color or another does not mean that it is all inclusive or exclusive. Not every black is bad. Not every white is good. And most in a bad economic situation don't chose to be bad for the simple sake of being bad. They are doing what they feel they have to in order to survive.
> Read the statement that got this part of the disscussion started again. His statement was very demeaning by context, regardless if he knew it, meant it, or not.



We are talking about exposure to violence not violent behavior. No one has said all people of any type are good or bad.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> Again, you are showing a very clear misunderstanding of "stats". Stats are not deterministic, they are descriptive. Look up multiple regression, part and partialing of variance, hell just look at a basic stats book. If what you were saying is true, the models wouldn't show a significant coefficient for race when confounders were accounted for. The stats ARE all inclusive.


Proving my points. If you are simply looking for black and white answers (no pun intended) then use your stats. Everyone fits into a stat one way or another. You are either on one side of the stat or the other. So the stat cannot be all inclusive or exclusive. So if a stat does not say 100%, then people should not word their statements as such.

If you simply study two groups then say 87% of one group vs. 29% of the other group, in a dynamic situation when even the numbers of each group are different, then what do you really have? Where do the 13% of the first group fit, as well as the 71% of the other group? If you simply equal out the number in each group then your stats will change. If you reverse the numbers of the group then your stats again will change.

If you simply looks at the stats without some deductive reasoning, then you will always be scratching your head and never know why. Unless you are dealing with absolutes, stats cannot explain much. Especially when dealing with the dynamics of social environments studies, there are just too many intangible variables.


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## ATC (Feb 25, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> We are talking about exposure to violence not violent behavior. No one has said all people of any type are good or bad.


The two are tied togeather. You can't be exposed to it unless there is violent behavior.


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## JWLuiza (Feb 25, 2010)

ATC said:


> If you simply looks at the stats without some deductive reasoning, then you will always be scratching your head and never know why. Unless you are dealing with absolutes, stats cannot explain much. Especially when dealing with the dynamics of social environments studies, there are just too many intangible variables.



WRONG. You are using the term "stats" to mean something it doesn't. Of course at an individual level it feels like stats tell us nothing, but that isn't the case. And I've never implied that stats were absolute.

It's like in poker, if I have pocket Aces and my opponent has pocket queens on a flop of Ace Queen 4 of clubs, statistically I am ahead about 93-7. I can base decisions off this. Doesn't mean I always win, but there is good predictive validity. Same thing in social sciences research. We DO model the intangibles. They come in as confidence intervals and variances. And the great thing about science of any flavor, when the model isn't enough, you do more research and keep trying to figure out the model.

Thinking there are too many intangibles is the type of thinking that gets people thinking that remote prayer, homeopathy, and other things work even when the data shows they don't.


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 26, 2010)

ATC said:


> Wow!!! Just read what you stated. All I can do is shake my head. Why would it not be as serious? A concussion is a concussion and is serious for anyone regardless of race, color, or economic status. To make the statement you did is laughable. What about a white factory worker living in Schaerbeek? Is the concussion more serious? I wish you a wonderful day, and my god bless.



Are you intentionally trying to be insulted or what?
MY color indeed does not have anything to do with the seriousness of a concussion, but it does have to do with the chances of me being a victim because that is what crime statistics indicate.

So if I was that factory worker who does not have to look at a computer screen all day (something known to be the potentially problematic after a concussion) then concussion is less of a career risk. Furhermore, if my color and circumstance put me in the higher risk range for violence, then those odds outweigh the risk of concussion.

Why are you intent on picking the worst possible meaning for my words?


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## Bruno@MT (Feb 26, 2010)

ATC said:


> The two are tied togeather. You can't be exposed to it unless there is violent behavior.



Not true.

If I am a frail old lady, then my chances of getting mugged in the street at night and my purse stolen are higher then if I was a bear like Bas Rutten.
And somehow I doubt that that statistic implies violent behavior on the part of frail old ladies.


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## ATC (Feb 26, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Not true.
> 
> If I am a frail old lady, then my chances of getting mugged in the street at night and my purse stolen are higher then if I was a bear like Bas Rutten.
> And somehow I doubt that that statistic implies violent behavior on the part of frail old ladies.


:rofl:


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## ATC (Feb 26, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Are you intentionally trying to be insulted or what?
> MY color indeed does not have anything to do with the seriousness of a concussion, but it does have to do with the chances of me being a victim because that is what crime statistics indicate.
> 
> So if I was that factory worker who does not have to look at a computer screen all day (something known to be the potentially problematic after a concussion) then concussion is less of a career risk. Furhermore, if my color and circumstance put me in the higher risk range for violence, then those odds outweigh the risk of concussion.
> ...


Your words not mine and most of what you just said really did not even make any sense.


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## ATC (Feb 26, 2010)

JWLuiza said:


> WRONG. You are using the term "stats" to mean something it doesn't. Of course at an individual level it feels like stats tell us nothing, but that isn't the case. And I've never implied that stats were absolute.
> 
> It's like in poker, if I have pocket Aces and my opponent has pocket queens on a flop of Ace Queen 4 of clubs, statistically I am ahead about 93-7. I can base decisions off this. Doesn't mean I always win, but there is good predictive validity. Same thing in social sciences research. We DO model the intangibles. They come in as confidence intervals and variances. And the great thing about science of any flavor, when the model isn't enough, you do more research and keep trying to figure out the model.
> 
> Thinking there are too many intangibles is the type of thinking that gets people thinking that remote prayer, homeopathy, and other things work even when the data shows they don't.


I can see we are not even in the same book let alone the same page. You keep trying to justify someone racist statement with statistics and studies. I am simply pointing out that no matter the odds (I do understand what you are trying to say) you just can't make those blanket statements as if they are absolutes.

Anyone in any bad neighborhood has bad odds. Just as anyone in any good neighborhood has better odds. A well to do Hispanic living in a nice upscale neighborhood only staying in that nice neighborhood has just as good of odds as any white in the same neighborhood. So knowing that, there is no need to state that you are white, black, brown, red, or any color when making such statements. Doing so hints on racism, if you don't think so then you don't, but I do.

What purpose does it serve for me to say, "*Being a middle class white male with an engineering job, living in a safe neighborhood*, the added benefits of full contact sparring does not outweigh the risk of full contact sparring injury."?

If you can't see how that statement appears racist then something is wrong. It implies that only white males can have engineering jobs and live in safe neighborhoods.

I have an engineering job and live in a safe neighborhood. As well as many of my engineering friends who are also not white.

Then to follow up that statement with the next was classic and right on time. "*If I was a colored factory worker living in Schaerbeek (bad place near Brussels) then the consequences of a concussion would not be as serious.*"

Why not? colored people don't need their brains. I would love to hear the doctor patient converstation.

*Doctor:* So I see you are a colored factory worker, Just take two aspirins and call me in the morning. You don't need a cat scan to see if you brain is bleeding, we have more important white engineers to tend to.

*Colored person (green I guess):* But doc my head hurts and I cant see, and everything is blurry. I might kill someone down at the factory if I cant see what I am doing.

*Doctor:* Dont worry about that, just as long as it isnt a white engineer.

You keep on defending statements like the ones above.


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## ATC (Feb 26, 2010)

FYI, *Bruno @MT* made his statement with no reference to any statistical data at all. He simply made his statement based off the fact that he was placing more value on his job than any full contact sparring. He never intended for that statement to be in reference to any studies or stats, just read the post again. It is only after I inferred his statement to be slanted that justification of the statement was made, and not by him I might add. Read post number 47 again.

So any debate between JWLuiza and granfire is just that, debate.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 26, 2010)

Hmm. Well, this is interesting.

ATC, I hate to say it, but you are being overly sensitive to a non-situation. What Bruno said, if you take his entire sentence, rather than just the fragment you constantly use, in context, he simply stated that due to who he is (a white middle class male), what he does (he is an engineer, a rather safe indoor job), and where he is (uh, Belgium actually. We'll return to this though...), he is fairly unlikely to be involved in a serious violent encounter. Therefore his need for full contact sparring, and the added risk of serous injury which could take him from his livelihood, was not sufficient to justify it in his personal circumstances. So you know, I'm in a very similar situation. I'm a white, middle-upper class male in a very safe job in a very safe environment with a very safe lifestyle.... hmm, I suppose I'm racist now that I mentioned a simple fact too. 

You then siezed upon one word, "white". For you that made his entire comment about race, when that was one of many different aspects of his personal situation that he brought up... not first, not last, just one of quite a few. But you leapt on it. That suggests a few things to me. For one thing, it suggests to me that you haven't taken the time to recognise the full reality of Bruno's situation, or his post.

Another thing it suggests to me, and forgive me if any of this is incorrect, I haven't really followed your posts on the forum in general so this may have been addressed by yourself or others at some point, but I feel that perhaps you yourself are not white. I would probably guess Hispanic if pressed. Your location is given as San Jose, so it is not out of the question that you have seen both racism and reverse racism, depending on exactly where you are, with yourself, your friends, your family, and people around you in general. But you need to remember that that is your situation in your home. In the US.

Bruno is not in the US.

Although I would never suggest that racism is only present in the US, or that it doesn't exist in Belgium (or anywhere else, for that matter), the US does seem to have it's own peculiar brand. There are many reasons for this, and I'm not going to go into them here. The point is more that you actually cannot apply the same hysterical politically-correct standards to other cultures and societies, and when reading Bruno's words (or mine, I'm not in the US either), you cannot apply your personal meaning and construe that he or I, or anyone, are guilty of racism that frankly is present only in your interpretation.

With the comments about the relative seriousness of a concussion, I believe what Bruno was saying was that with his life and circumstances as they are, risking a concussion in training when weighed up against his likelihood to require the benefits of such hard contact in training in the immediate future were minimal. However, for another who was more likely in need of immediate ways of handling sudden violence, such training (the risk of a concussion due to solid contact) had immediately recognisable benefits, so it would be more realistic for them to train in such a manner. It was not that the concussion itself would be less serious, it was that the relative risk made it less of a serious issue (as the higher risk of a violent encounter in the near future was more of a serious issue for our fictional high-risk individual). You really are reading too much into this.

As to disputing the statistics, well, you're really up against it there. Certain racial groups, same as certain socio-economic groups, same as certain age groups, same as certain gender groups, same as certain sexual preference groups, same as any other group with a significant differential, will be more or less likely for certain life experiences. Any study/statement (that can be backed up) which claims such is not racist/sexist/prejudiced etc any more than a statement that saying that white cars tend to stay cooler than black ones. It's just an observation, devoid of judgement or blame. That is how Bruno's statement was to be read. You may want to go back and re-read it, perhaps the entire sentence this time.

As I said, I get the feeling that racism has been a part of your past, and is possibly still quite a part of your present, and for that I am sorry. But that in no way makes any tiny mention of race a racist statement, and you may need to widen your own views of prejudice before re-entering this discussion. Granfire and JWLuiza have been more than correct, and Bruno has been unfairly vilified. I may even go so far as to suggest an apology may not be out of the question.

Okay, that was interesting for a bit.

As to the OP (although I'm noting that they have yet to return and post again, let alone reply here), those injuries are far from serious. We don't spar, but we push things pretty hard, and injuries, although not common, do happen. If you are training a martial art, recognise that a big part of the training is getting you used to (become comfortable) a dangerous situation. And some exposure to injury is to be expected. It should never get to the point where control is forgotten, but there needs to be some risk.


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## Jade Tigress (Feb 26, 2010)

*ATTENTION ALL USERS

This thread has veered way off topic. Please return to the original topic of how to spar without sustaining major injuries.

Thank you.

Pamela Piszczek
MT Asst Admin*


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## ATC (Feb 26, 2010)

Chris Parker said:


> Hmm. Well, this is interesting.
> 
> ATC, I hate to say it, but you are being overly sensitive to a non-situation. What Bruno said, if you take his entire sentence, rather than just the fragment you constantly use, in context, he simply stated that due to who he is (a white middle class male), what he does (he is an engineer, a rather safe indoor job), and where he is (uh, Belgium actually. We'll return to this though...), he is fairly unlikely to be involved in a serious violent encounter. Therefore his need for full contact sparring, and the added risk of serous injury which could take him from his livelihood, was not sufficient to justify it in his personal circumstances. So you know, I'm in a very similar situation. I'm a white, middle-upper class male in a very safe job in a very safe environment with a very safe lifestyle.... hmm, I suppose I'm racist now that I mentioned a simple fact too.
> 
> ...


Sorry I disagree.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> You got to be kidding me in my school it takes about 18 to 24 months to get to green. In four months you are maybe ready for a yellow stripe, my beginners belts stay that way for at;east a year. Why doeas the ITA geet people to mid belt so fast, not knocking it but trying to ynderstand the way of teaching, I believe the basics take a longtime to get prety good at it.


This is one of the reasons that I prefer to use keup grade rather than belt color.  I have no idea where a greenbelt falls in the ITA syllabus.  If is where ours is (6th keup), then four months is definitely very short.  At our school, green is roughly a year out and is 6th keup.  

But if green belt is representing eighth keup, then four months isn't so outrageous.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 26, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> I just watched this clip and I am wondering something: why are they both hanging their arms down, instead of keeping their guard up?


Not sure if this has been answered.  

The reason is that they are doing WTF sport taekwondo.

Without a lengthy explanation, and without inviting any commentary on WTF sport TKD (the OP is ITF, so for her, what people think of WTF sport is irrelevant), the basic strategy is highly effective within that rule set.  

The arms staying at the sides make it harder for your opponent to score a torso shot and timing, distance, and movement are used to defend against kicks to the head.  Punches are very difficult, if not impossible, to score with and they are only permitted to the body, which is well padded.  

Daniel


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## jks9199 (Feb 26, 2010)

Hey, what does any discussion of race have to do with the OP's question?  Maybe the OP can give us an update?  Have things improved?  Or are there still problems in her school?


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## terryl965 (Feb 26, 2010)

I was wondering the same thing has your sparing get any better?


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

She probably ran off during our detour...


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2010)

granfire said:


> She probably ran off during our detour...


 
But if she would make four right turbs she can be right back here again...


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

But will she want to?


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## terryl965 (Mar 1, 2010)

granfire said:


> But will she want to?


 
If her car was unable ro turn left..


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## granfire (Mar 1, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> If her car was unable ro turn left..



Hahahahahahaha
:lol2:


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