# The problem with "traditional" martial arts.



## KPM (Jun 27, 2018)

Good article from Paul Rackemann.

Is Traditional Chinese Kung Fu practical for fighting? - Rackemann Wing Chun


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2018)

KPM said:


> Good article from Paul Rackemann.
> 
> Is Traditional Chinese Kung Fu practical for fighting? - Rackemann Wing Chun


I think he makes some good points, clearly king fu, must have been better in the past or it wouldn't have caught onChina originally or  the west.

I wouldn't be so dimissive of kata, but certainly the requirement for alive fighting is true. With out there's a real problem with techniques that have no value being developed or past on.

But the glaring issue with some of the challenge matches I've seen is the size and strength of the mma opponent, that sortOf physical imbalances takes some getting over no matter he Art your using, 

So perhaps the inbuilt issue, is the one that comes up a fair amount on here, that size strengh, fitness isn't required with tma, in general and kUng fu in particular.
That skill will out Fox strength, which is a maybe in the general run of things, but a defiantly not, if you opponent also has good skills, as is the case with these challenge matches


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> So perhaps the inbuilt issue, is the one that comes up a fair amount on here, that size strengh, fitness isn't required with tma, in general and kUng fu in particular.



i didnt read the posted blog article yet, i am only addressing this comment and the sentiment at large.

when i fist started my martial arts journey i had the belief that martial arts had the purpose of creating fighting ability and that was supposed to balance the advantage of strength.  skill over comes strength.  i now see otherwise.  this mantra of skill over coming size and strength i believe is a myth put forward by the early arts in the west like judo.  however when you dig into karate and perhaps kung fu you see a historical practice of strength training.  weight lifting did not come into the common consciousness until about the same time as karate was being developed in Okinawa.  a common thread connecting many of the old masters stories about starting karate training was  "i was a small and weakly child, often sick with bad health....karate cured me of all this and i became a strong karate person"    so after many such tales it can be deduced that karate was seen AS A METHOD OF STRENGTH BUILDING and over all fitness.  it was not a method of replacing fitness but one of giving fitness.  if we remember that there were no Planet fitness or Gold's gyms around and that bar bells and such were not common,  you can look around the Okinawan dojo and see a multitude of rudimentary fitness equipment.   i would then assume that the same methodology was prevalent in China.


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## jobo (Jun 27, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i didnt read the posted blog article yet, i am only addressing this comment and the sentiment at large.
> 
> when i fist started my martial arts journey i had the belief that martial arts had the purpose of creating fighting ability and that was supposed to balance the advantage of strength.  skill over comes strength.  i now see otherwise.  this mantra of skill over coming size and strength i believe is a myth put forward by the early arts in the west like judo.  however when you dig into karate and perhaps kung fu you see a historical practice of strength training.  weight lifting did not come into the common consciousness until about the same time as karate was being developed in Okinawa.  a common thread connecting many of the old masters stories about starting karate training was  "i was a small and weakly child, often sick with bad health....karate cured me of all this and i became a strong karate person"    so after many such tales it can be deduced that karate was seen AS A METHOD OF STRENGTH BUILDING and over all fitness.  it was not a method of replacing fitness but one of giving fitness.  if we remember that there were no Planet fitness or Gold's gyms around and that bar bells and such were not common,  you can look around the Okinawan dojo and see a multitude of rudimentary fitness equipment.   i would then assume that the same methodology was prevalent in China.


I don't think we are disagreeing ? , I'm sure that a pursuit of physical fitness was a thing in the early ma, and that has to a large part been lost in the modern/ western manifestation, 

You can get good strength with out barbells, just lifting yourself and Or various heavy objects will do it, perhaps not as well or as conveniently as a fully equipped gym,

But that aspect seems to be LACking as well from a lot of tma, but what has changed greatly is our understanding of performance training, it's not just a case of doing the excersise, it's how it's done and how often. 

If I go to the boxing or mmA s gym then a see people devoting a great deal of time to bench pressing or squats or hours of pounding a heavy bag.

I visit to a tma, has little in the way of fitness/ strength training, certainly it will improve fitness, if your not very fit to start of with, you won't prepared you to fight like hard training of someone who is training to fight, with out that you always loose to a mma, buff who has


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## Headhunter (Jun 27, 2018)

There's only one thing wrong with traditional martial arts....bad teachers. Any style can work if taught properly.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 27, 2018)

jobo said:


> I don't think we are disagreeing ? , I'm sure that a pursuit of physical fitness was a thing in the early ma, and that has to a large part been lost in the modern/ western manifestation,
> 
> You can get good strength with out barbells, just lifting yourself and Or various heavy objects will do it, perhaps not as well or as conveniently as a fully equipped gym,
> 
> ...



i do not think we are disagreeing.   i was only pointing out that strength building WAS a part of older martial arts. i have no idea how or why this was lost.  however if you train in a traditional Goju or Uechi dojo then your chances of getting the strength training is good. the Shorin styles not so much.

this clip shows many of the traditional exercises.  skip to 35:27 for the equipment.





Edit:  the chishi stone on the end of the stick is one of my favorites.  the one i used to use was about 25 pounds. (not sure how to convert that to UK measurements)


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## Flying Crane (Jun 27, 2018)

I don’t really see much wrong with traditional styles.  There ARE a lot of poor teachers, and a lot of people do not train in a quality manner, but that is a different issue altogether.


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## Xue Sheng (Jun 27, 2018)

I once saw a Chinese Xingyiquan Shifu teaching in China that stopped his students when doing partner drills because, as he said, they were dancing. he wanted reality. HIs words

我讨厌跳舞 (Wǒ tǎoyàn tiàowǔ - I hate dancing)

Another thing my brief exposure to JKD opened my eyes to many things in Xingyiquan that, IMO, had fallen prey to Bruce Lee's Classical mess. Does not mean Xingyi, as taught is ineffective, it does mean that it could be more effective. Another thing I have seen more than once as it applies to both Xingyiquan and Taijiquan, is a person teaching an application that does not understand the application, or a person deriding the application, while doing it wrong, who also does not understand the application.


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## drop bear (Jun 28, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> There's only one thing wrong with traditional martial arts....bad teachers. Any style can work if taught properly.


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## KPM (Jun 28, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> There's only one thing wrong with traditional martial arts....bad teachers. Any style can work if taught properly.



This statement is too general.  Work against who? In what circumstance?  All martial arts are certainly not created equal!  There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to work well against someone doing an art equally well taught and performed, but that is more suitable to the circumstance.  I just do not believe that a high level Tai Chi guy is going to be successful in ring competition against an equally high level Muay Thai guy!


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## KPM (Jun 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I don’t really see much wrong with traditional styles.  There ARE a lot of poor teachers, and a lot of people do not train in a quality manner, but that is a different issue altogether.


 
As Rackemann pointed out, "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.  They very often don't spar.  Some do.  But those are often the ones that have "updated" the curriculum to some extent to be more "modern."


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## TMA17 (Jun 28, 2018)

Paul Rackemann's approach and insights are great IMO.


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## JR 137 (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> As Rackemann pointed out, "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.  They very often don't spar.  Some do.  But those are often the ones that have "updated" the curriculum to some extent to be more "modern."


Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring?  I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.

We also need to define sparring a bit.  Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat?  I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the punches they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant.  And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.

But not doing any sparring at all?  I’ve never seen it.


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## mrt2 (Jun 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring?  I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.
> 
> We also need to define sparring a bit.  *Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat?*  I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the punches they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant.  And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.
> 
> But not doing any sparring at all?  I’ve never seen it.


You make a good point.  At my school, we spar with chest protectors, headgear, gloves, and shin/instep pads.  In my past practice, we had none of those things.  When wearing the pads, it allows for more contact.  But at the same time, you don't get the feeling of getting your punch or kick blocked hard.  And, with the chest protector, you don't pay as much of a price when you leave yourself completely open and get kicked in the solar plexus.  On the other hand, at my former school, I suspect many of us got a little too used to pulling our punches and kicks, so that in a real, full contact situation, all those years of practice might be rendered useless.

I suspect in TMA, there is a missing element that has, literally, gotten lost in translation.  Think about it.  In the example of Karate or TKD, these arts used to be practiced by mostly fit young men who might have come into the practice already knowing something about fighting.  In the 40s through the 50s, the first generation of Americans who learned these arts were soldiers.  Again, fit young men who already had some experience with combat.

But today, who learns TMA?  I would wager it is 80% children.  You going to do full contact drills with children?  Not if you want to stay in business long..


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> As Rackemann pointed out, "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.  They very often don't spar.  Some do.  But those are often the ones that have "updated" the curriculum to some extent to be more "modern."


How the training is conducted is an issue about the instructor and is a separate issue from he system itself.  You don’t blame the style for poor training.  If poor training is being done, you blame the instructor.

And for the record, I am utterly unconvinced that sparring is a necessity for developing good skills.

Sparring can be a useful tool in the training toolbox.  There are lots of ways to spar and they are not all created equal.  Some are good, others are useless.  But sparring in any form is not an absolute necessity for developing good skills.  It is given more importance than it deserves.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> I just do not believe that a high level Tai Chi guy is going to be successful in ring competition against an equally high level Muay Thai guy!


Why do you believe that ring competition is the yardstick against which the usefulness of martial training needs to be measured? That makes no sense to me.

And if that is the yardstick, then I ask: how would YOU do in a ring competition against a Muay Thai competitor?


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## Martial D (Jun 28, 2018)

TMA17 said:


> Paul Rackemann's approach and insights are great IMO.


I get him, although he gets a lot of flak from more traditional schools. The more I do MMA the less my WC looks like WC. It also gets way more effective along that same curve.


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## KPM (Jun 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> Why do you believe that ring competition is the yardstick against which the usefulness of martial training needs to be measured? That makes no sense to me.
> 
> And if that is the yardstick, then I ask: how would YOU do in a ring competition against a Muay Thai competitor?



You didn't bother to read my entire comment.  I said....... "simply not going to work well against someone doing an art equally well taught and performed, but that is more suitable to the circumstance."   And ring competition is certainly going to be one circumstance when a well-taught Tai Chi guy is not going to do well against a well-taught Muay Thai guy!   Here's another.....in a full-out fight with weapons, a well-taught BJJ guy is simply not going to fare well against a equally well-taught Kali Ilustrisimo guy!  Here's another....a well-taught kickboxer is simply not going to fare well against a well-taught judo/jiu jitsu guy in a tight space that makes striking difficult.


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring? I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.


Let's see ...
Aikido (just about all branches other than Tomiki Aikido)
The various Bujinkan arts and their offshoots
Many (possibly most) koryu arts
I'm not so up on the CMA scene, but I believe most branches of Tai Chi don't do actual sparring (push hands can be sparring-adjacent, but it's not really sparring)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think he makes some good points, clearly king fu, must have been better in the past or it wouldn't have caught onChina originally or  the west.
> 
> I wouldn't be so dimissive of kata, but certainly the requirement for alive fighting is true. With out there's a real problem with techniques that have no value being developed or past on.
> 
> ...


This. ^^

There's a pretty pervasive overstatement within parts of TMA of how much skill can overcome physical advantages. If I face a young, strong, athletic 20-something with no prior training, I can probably still handle him pretty well in most situations. Make him a trained college wrestler, and that starts to be less certain. Make him a fit, experienced MMA fighter, and it's less likely. Same goes if he's a fit, experienced Kyokushin fighter or Judo player.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2018)

jobo said:


> I don't think we are disagreeing ? , I'm sure that a pursuit of physical fitness was a thing in the early ma, and that has to a large part been lost in the modern/ western manifestation,
> 
> You can get good strength with out barbells, just lifting yourself and Or various heavy objects will do it, perhaps not as well or as conveniently as a fully equipped gym,
> 
> ...


I think part of the issue is comparing the more time-intensive study of decades ago with the 2-4 hours in the dojo most hobbyists give today. It's not really feasible to teach MA _and_ have fitness classes in that amount of time. I do more than most instructors I know, and less than I'd do if I had students 5-10 hours a week. So, the fitness aspect remains important, but ceases to be as much a part of the training. At most schools (including most of my training through the years), fitness is only found in the warm-up (usually less than 10 minutes) and however hard you work in class.

I'm not sure there's a really good answer to this. My "warm up" takes about 10-15 minutes each class if I do the whole thing. I can do that (and could maybe do a touch more) because I have 90-minute classes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> As Rackemann pointed out, "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.  They very often don't spar.  Some do.  But those are often the ones that have "updated" the curriculum to some extent to be more "modern."


I don't think that's a function of the style in most cases. It's a training choice, and is a function of the instructor. Take any of those styles and add some live training, and it's still the same style (probably with some mechanical updates to match what's discovered in live training).


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring?  I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.
> 
> We also need to define sparring a bit.  Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat?  I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the punches they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant.  And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.
> 
> But not doing any sparring at all?  I’ve never seen it.


I've seen it, though rarely. Most schools I've seen have some sort of sparring. Don't look for anything truly live in most aiki-oriented schools. And IME an art that is foundationally grappling-first is likely to get short shrift in the strikes sparring (and some even skip out on the resistive grappling).


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> How the training is conducted is an issue about the instructor and is a separate issue from he system itself. You don’t blame the style for poor training. If poor training is being done, you blame the instructor.


This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?

In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.

In Aikido (other than Tomiki Aikido), live sparring is not generally part of the practice.  For those who believe that sparring is important, does that mean all the instructors in the Aikikai are bad teachers?

In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?

I'm curious as to your thoughts.


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## geezer (Jun 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> In most CMA, solo forms are part of the style, perhaps even being seen by some as defining the art. If a given instructor of Tai Chi or Hung Gar or White Crane decides that forms are a bad training method and eliminates all of them from the curriculum, then is that school still teaching the same art as schools which teach more traditionally?
> 
> I'm curious as to your thoughts.



My old Wing Tsun sifu said that most traditional martial arts training consisted of _three_ basics: _1. Forms, 2. Single and paired drills teaching application, 3. Sparring._

Wing Tsun (also WC/VT), he claimed, had an advantage in that it added a critical _fourth_ element of training, _Chi-sau._

Competitive martial arts like BJJ, MMA, Muay Thai, and Boxing have generally d_on't do forms_ and place far heavier emphasis on sparring and fighting/competition. Meanwhile, many traditional martial arts have come to do little or no sparring.

Whether or not forms are necessary or even helpful is only one part of the debate. Perhaps more important is the loss of sparring and resistant training from the old formula. In WT/WC/VT we seem to have replaced it with excessive emphasis on chi-sau. This was not the way the art was intended to be taught, but it is great for business if none of your students want to fight. Hey almost nobody likes to get beat up --I know I don't, but sparring doesn't have to be like fighting. If you approach it as controlled_ training_, people actually like it, or at least accept it rather like doing any hard exercise.

After years of following association guidelines and not pushing sparring, I'm trying to change things a bit with my own little club. Unfortunately, people tend not to show up on sparring day. Change will have to come gradually, I guess. One of the biggest problems for students, aside from the initial fear of getting hit, is their disappointment at seeing that their sifu can be hit too. Wait! Isn't kung fu _magic?_  I'm trying to shift paradigms here. Apparently sifus are supposed to be perfect. Maybe if I have them call me_ coach_ instead?

BTW too much emphasis on competition can also destroy the effectiveness of a martial art. It all depends on the rule set and whether there is a strong desire to keep the art real. Examples of competitive martial sports that have lost touch with combat reality would include karate or TKD point fighting and modern sport fencing.


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## Martial D (Jun 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Let's see ...
> Aikido (just about all branches other than Tomiki Aikido)
> The various Bujinkan arts and their offshoots
> Many (possibly most) koryu arts
> I'm not so up on the CMA scene, but I believe most branches of Tai Chi don't do actual sparring (push hands can be sparring-adjacent, but it's not really sparring)


Add the vast majority of wing chun schools to that list. Rolling hands is not sparring.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> "traditional" styles very often don't include any "live" training.


The traditional styles use different kind of live training. The 1st time that I ever spar when I was in my high school long fist class. The sparring rule was "1 person attack and 1 person defense". IMO, that's a much better starting point for sparring.


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## mrt2 (Jun 28, 2018)

geezer said:


> After years of following association guidelines and not pushing sparring, I'm trying to change things a bit with my own little club. *Unfortunately, people tend not to show up on sparring day.* Change will have to come gradually, I guess. One of the biggest problems for students, aside from the initial fear of getting hit, is their disappointment at seeing that their sifu can be hit too. Wait! Isn't kung fu _magic?_  I'm trying to shift paradigms here. Apparently sifus are supposed to be perfect. Maybe if I have them call me_ coach_ instead?
> 
> BTW too much emphasis on competition can also destroy the effectiveness of a martial art. It all depends on the rule set and whether there is a strong desire to keep the art real. Examples of competitive martial sports that have lost touch with combat reality would include karate or TKD point fighting and modern sport fencing.


My TKD teacher doesn't always announce sparring, so any day can be sparring day.


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## mrt2 (Jun 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The traditional styles use different kind of live training. The 1st time that I ever spar when I was in my high school long fist class. *The sparring rule was "1 person attack and 1 person defense". *IMO, that's a much better starting point for sparring.


We do drills like that sometime, but as far as I can tell, without free sparring, you could easily get into some bad habits, like dropping your guard when you attack.  .


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 28, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> We do drills like that sometime, but as far as I can tell, without free sparring, you could easily get into some bad habits, like dropping your guard when you attack.  .


That's just one kind of sparring. Other sparring can be:

If you can

- punch my head within 20 punches,
- kick my body within 20 kicks,
- grab my leading leg within 1 minute,
- put your hand on my throat within 1 minute,
- get me into head lock within 1 minute,
- sweep me down within 1 minute,
- ...

you win that round, otherwise you lose that round.

Everyday the game rule will changed. IMO, this kind of sparring can force people to develop new skills instead of using old skill over and over.

After 6 years of MA training, I have seen people who spars exactly the same way as he did 6 years ago. He uses no new MA skill.

I just don't believe the modern way sparring is the best training method.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?
> 
> In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.
> 
> ...


Very good points, and I think there is overlap where certain practices, such as sparring, can be included in the training, or not, and it does not define the style.

I would say that if an aikido sensei decid d to work a form of sparring into their methods, then it is still aikido.

My white crane sifu has said that if you just want to learn to fight, he can teach you all you need in a year to a year and a half, with no forms included.  It’s still white crane.


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## JR 137 (Jun 28, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> My TKD teacher doesn't always announce sparring, so any day can be sparring day.


Practically every day is “sparring day” in my dojo.  Our CI actually apologizes most times when we’re onto something and run out of time to spar at the end.

We may not do sparring the entire sessions, but we definitely go at least one time through the line; ie pair off, then move onto the next person.  Even the lower ranks who don’t officially spar yet do very light/non-contact sparring; ie block what’s thrown at them, but both parties stop just short of actually hitting if they missed the block.


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## JR 137 (Jun 28, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> And for the record, I am utterly unconvinced that sparring is a necessity for developing good skills.
> 
> Sparring can be a useful tool in the training toolbox.  There are lots of ways to spar and they are not all created equal.  Some are good, others are useless.  But sparring in any form is not an absolute necessity for developing good skills.  It is given more importance than it deserves.



If there’s no sparring in any form, how does the student know that their skills actually mean anything useful in an actual encounter?  Forget the ring and the cage for a second.  Blocking the air has its uses, but without actually blocking a strike, how is that actually supposed to work and be effective if it’s never been done against anyone actually trying to hit them?  How is punching or kicking the air going to translate to actually hitting a moving and blocking target?

Perfecting a baseball swing without ever seeing live pitching isn’t going to make anyone be able to hit a baseball. No matter how long they’ve practiced that swing and how technically flawless it appears.  Hitting off of a tee (the equivalent of hitting a bag?) isn’t going to work either, no matter how far they can hit that ball off the tee.  The only way to be able to actually hit a pitch is to have someone pitch.

You can do all the footwork drills in the world, shadowbox until your arms and legs fall off, etc.  While it’s a good base, none of it means anything until you’re able to actually use it against an opponent.  Just like the baseball analogy.

The overwhelmingly most common mistake I see newbies make during sparring (especially contact sparring) is breaking their posture when stuff comes at them - turning away, putting their head down, going into a standing fetal position, etc.  Actually that’s usually after they’ve gone too far straight backwards and they’re out of room.  Look at the “traditional martial art masters” on YouTube and the like who get challenged and subsequently embarrassed by the MMA fighter.  See what those guys who get owned do most of the time? Same thing I just described.  Maybe those are the guys who think sparring is useless.  I’m not talking about every TMAist nor master, but we’ve all seen who I’m actually talking about, hence the “traditional martial arts masters” in quotations. 

Sparring only becomes useless if you’ve done it enough and are proficient at it.  Even then, you’ve got to keep sharp, just like a batter still has to get in the batting cage regularly so they keep their eye for hitting.

Without sparring, it’s just LARPing.  All IMO.

Edit:  I’ve got nothing against people who don’t want to spar.  And I’ve got nothing against arts that never spar.  They’re not for me; that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be allowed.  However, if someone doesn’t ever spar or has never sparred is saying that sparring is useless and doesn’t teach any actual MA or fighting skill, all I can do is shake my head and walk away.  Much like if someone told me the world is flat.


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## mrt2 (Jun 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's just one kind of sparring. Other sparring can be:
> 
> If you can
> 
> ...



Sounds complicated.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 28, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> Sounds complicated.


Sounds useful. Its what you should be thinking about when youre sparring, but now someone else is holding you accountable to what youre working on.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 28, 2018)

geezer said:


> Whether or not forms are necessary or even helpful is only one part of the debate. Perhaps more important is the loss of sparring and resistant training from the old formula. In WT/WC/VT we seem to have replaced it with excessive emphasis on chi-sau. This was not the way the art was intended to be taught, *but it is great for business if none of your students want to fight.* Hey almost nobody likes to get beat up --I know I don't, but sparring doesn't have to be like fighting. If you approach it as controlled_ training_, people actually like it, or at least accept it rather like doing any hard exercise.



I think this is one of the challenges that TMA schools are currently really struggling with. I first moved to Seattle just before UFC 1. When I got here there were so many martial arts schools that I wanted to train with I didn't know where to start. As time has passed, and MMA has gotten so much more of the cultural mind share, it seems like there has been a lot of self sorting going on. Those who really want to mix it up and spar have chosen BJJ/MMA gyms and a lot of TMA schools have done less and less sparring as their remaining students have had less and less interest in it. It's gotten to where it's kind of tough to find a TMA school that does much sparring here, but I think a lot of that is economic pressure and cultural expectations rather than the nature of TMA.


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## mrt2 (Jun 28, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> I think this is one of the challenges that TMA schools are currently really struggling with. I first moved to Seattle just before UFC 1. When I got here there were so many martial arts schools that I wanted to train with I didn't know where to start. As time has passed, and MMA has gotten so much more of the cultural mind share, it seems like there has been a lot of self sorting going on. Those who really want to mix it up and spar have chosen BJJ/MMA gyms and a lot of TMA schools have done less and less sparring as their remaining students have had less and less interest in it. It's gotten to where it's kind of tough to find a TMA school that does much sparring here, but I think a lot of that is economic pressure and cultural expectations rather than the nature of TMA.


I think you might be right.  When I used to practice TSD in the 80s, there were a lot of younger guys signing up, myself included.  I suspect some percentage of that cohort who signed up with a TMA school in the past to learn to fight might be going more towards MMA these days.


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## KPM (Jun 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring?  I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.
> 
> 
> But not doing any sparring at all?  I’ve never seen it.



Then you must not get out much!    Tony already listed many.  Do you think the average Tai Chi school features sparring?  The average Aikido school?   And of those traditional arts that do actually spar, I would love to see footage where you can actually identify the art being used rather than it looking like a form of sloppy kickboxing.


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## JR 137 (Jun 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> Then you must not get out much!    Tony already listed many.  Do you think the average Tai Chi school features sparring?  The average Aikido school?   And of those traditional arts that do actually spar, I would love to see footage where you can actually identify the art being used rather than it looking like a form of sloppy kickboxing.


Come to think of it, I’ve visited an Aikido place and a Chinese place (can’t remember the exact style), and they didn’t spar.  I didn’t base them not ever sparring on one class that I watched though.

As far as traditional martial arts schools...
All the karate, kempo, TKD and judo schools I’ve seen spar.  I didn’t care much for the TKD and kempo sparring I saw, but at least they sparred.  One or two karate schools had horrible sparring too - all point fighting, but at least there’s someone throwing punches and kicks at you.

I’d get out more, but I really like where I am, so what’s the point?

Edit: the only tai chi I’ve seen in person is the non-MA tai chi.  And Tony’s post was a response to mine, hence why he quoted the same post you did when he replied.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 28, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> If there’s no sparring in any form, how does the student know that their skills actually mean anything useful in an actual encounter?  Forget the ring and the cage for a second.  Blocking the air has its uses, but without actually blocking a strike, how is that actually supposed to work and be effective if it’s never been done against anyone actually trying to hit them?  How is punching or kicking the air going to translate to actually hitting a moving and blocking target?
> 
> Perfecting a baseball swing without ever seeing live pitching isn’t going to make anyone be able to hit a baseball. No matter how long they’ve practiced that swing and how technically flawless it appears.  Hitting off of a tee (the equivalent of hitting a bag?) isn’t going to work either, no matter how far they can hit that ball off the tee.  The only way to be able to actually hit a pitch is to have someone pitch.
> 
> ...


Who says you are punching and blocking air?

There are all kinds of interactive partner drills with all kinds of contact.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2018)

KPM said:


> You didn't bother to read my entire comment.  I said....... "simply not going to work well against someone doing an art equally well taught and performed, but that is more suitable to the circumstance."   And ring competition is certainly going to be one circumstance when a well-taught Tai Chi guy is not going to do well against a well-taught Muay Thai guy!   Here's another.....in a full-out fight with weapons, a well-taught BJJ guy is simply not going to fare well against a equally well-taught Kali Ilustrisimo guy!  Here's another....a well-taught kickboxer is simply not going to fare well against a well-taught judo/jiu jitsu guy in a tight space that makes striking difficult.



You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post: 

“ All martial arts are certainly not created equal!  There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”

Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer.  Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think part of the issue is comparing the more time-intensive study of decades ago with the 2-4 hours in the dojo most hobbyists give today. It's not really feasible to teach MA _and_ have fitness classes in that amount of time. I do more than most instructors I know, and less than I'd do if I had students 5-10 hours a week. So, the fitness aspect remains important, but ceases to be as much a part of the training. At most schools (including most of my training through the years), fitness is only found in the warm-up (usually less than 10 minutes) and however hard you work in class.
> 
> I'm not sure there's a really good answer to this. My "warm up" takes about 10-15 minutes each class if I do the whole thing. I can do that (and could maybe do a touch more) because I have 90-minute classes.


Strength training which isn't perhaps all that would be recommended takes only a few mins or your time, but yes, the problem is emdemic, people are doing it as short cut to self defence aRe not likely to respond well to being told to invest another few hours a week in fitness training if they want it to be effective most of the time, they go and one something that promises more for less effort, that seems to be the modern world


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:
> 
> “ All martial arts are certainly not created equal!  There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”
> 
> Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer.  Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.


There's a larger question which is, if not fighting, ring or otherwise then how do you measure their usefulness, 

I'm the contract of this thread, where it's ring fighter beating up cma, fighters then yes up its the only useful measure


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## KPM (Jun 29, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:
> 
> “ All martial arts are certainly not created equal!  There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”
> 
> Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer.  Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.



Well, you certainly have a track record here of trying to twist things and turn it into an argument.     Like that other time you insisted that I had said something I hadn't!


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Strength training which isn't perhaps all that would be recommended takes only a few mins or your time, but yes, the problem is emdemic, people are doing it as short cut to self defence aRe not likely to respond well to being told to invest another few hours a week in fitness training if they want it to be effective most of the time, they go and one something that promises more for less effort, that seems to be the modern world


Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.), so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> There's a larger question which is, if not fighting, ring or otherwise then how do you measure their usefulness,


i would think this would be self evident.  the usefulness of any endeavor is whether or not it brings the participant to the intended goal.   what was the participant trying to achieve and was the endeavor _useful _in getting the participant to that goal?


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## Martial D (Jun 29, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> You didn’t rerepost the critical part of your earlier post:
> 
> “ All martial arts are certainly not created equal!  There are some martial arts, that no matter how well taught or performed, are simply not going to...”
> 
> Where you then put taiji in the context of a ring fight against a Thai boxer.  Maybe you didn’t intend to make such a comparison, but that is the message I got from it, that you feel ring competition is the yardstick against which all useful martial training must be measured.


Do you have a better yardstick? It seems to me the 'ya but in the street...' is this nebulous untestable standard that has been fallen back on time after time when their **** doesn't work 1 v 1 in a ring against someone that knows how to fight.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, you certainly have a track record here of trying to twist things and turn it into an argument.     Like that other time you insisted that I had said something I hadn't!


No Keith, I am not.  Communication is about what the receiver hears and receives.  If there is a misunderstanding, then the sender (that would be you, in this case) has the right and obligation to clarify your meaning, which you did.  I was then pointing out to you why I took your message to be something that was apparently other than you intended.  What you said, coupled with the context of many people on these very forums wanting to compare all methods agains MMA or some other full contact competition genre, and well there I was, thinking you said something that you are now telling me was not your intend message. I’ll take your word for it.  You, in turn, might see an opportunity to be more careful about how you express yourself in the future, if you want people to understand your meaning.

This is called “discussion” and sometimes even “debate”.  

It does not mean anyone is out to get you.  Even when there is disagreement.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, *there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.)*, so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.



In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.

Class time is another big issue.  I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training.  I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2018)

Error


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## Flying Crane (Jun 29, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This raises an interesting question. What defines a style? Is it the techniques? Is it the underlying body mechanics? The tactical mindset? Are the training methods part of it?
> 
> In BJJ, live grappling is central enough to the art that if a given school never did live grappling I would hesitate to call it a BJJ school - even if they taught all the same technique I do.
> 
> ...


I wanted to comment further on this.

Specifically regarding forms, it is my opinion that, while specific forms are often identified with particular systems, they do not necessarily create the system.

Forms are training tools, and I think a mistake that a lot of people make is in viewing them as a product.  Forms were never meant for performance or to be something to be done for their own sake.  Being able to “do the form” was never the reason for training.  If they were well designed by whoever invented them, then they are meant to train and drill the fundamental principles upon which the system is built, through sequences of movement and specific techniques and combinations that illustrate and ingrain those principles, and provide EXAMPLES of combative solutions.  I highlighted the word examples because I believe that is what they are, and not solutions that MUST be mastered as part of a curriculum.  What is in the forms could and should have valuable direct application, but one’s mileage will vary.  Forms really ought to be helping the student develop an understanding of how to move and how to engage the body and how to maintain good technical structure while moving and changing and executing techniques.  They should also help broaden a student’s perspective of what is possible, while not confining a student’s toolbox to just what is in the form.

As such, forms are just one of many tools that ought to reside in ones training toolbox, if you are training a system that includes forms.  There is room for other tools as well, like interactive drills, sparring, heavybag work, basics, etc.  Forms should not be the only tool in your toolbox.

Many Chinese systems contain a large number of forms, sometimes dozens.  I believe the original lineage of Choy Lay Fut includes what I have seen referred to as  “a blue billion” forms.  The system was built upon three other systems, and I believe had new forms created as well.  It’s generally far far more than a person with any other life to speak of can hope to learn, much less gain mastery from.

But you don’t have to.  I believe nobody learns them all.  There is another lineage of a Choy Lay Fut that has far fewer forms, and they do quite well.

As a tool, you don’t need all of them to develop your skills.  And if you really grasp and understand the important concepts after only learning a smaller number of forms, then in my opinion the forms have done their job and you do not need more of them.  They are superfluous.  Likewise I feel that if you have learned a solid...oh...half a dozen or so and you still don’t “get it”, then learning another half dozen probably is not going to help you much.  It just isn’t working for you.

I feel that if you can come up with other training methods that teach you what the forms are intended to teach, then sure, you could ditch the forms altogether and you would still be practicing the same style.  You have altered the curriculum significantly and some people will object to that and some people will insist that you are NOT doing the same system, but so what?  It is built on the same foundation, from the same source, it is the same system.  You have just established a new lineage, I guess.

My Sifu was featured in an Inside Kung-Fu magazine from 1970 or so.  I’ve  read the article and noted how he was critical of people teaching the system while having only learned some of the forms.  He felt they didn’t know the complete system and were unqualified to teach.

While I was training with him, one thing he would say to us was: you don’t need to learn all these forms; you don’t need them all. I guess his position on this has changed.

It is my oppinin that if you have learned them, they are valuable to have, but If you do not learn them, you are not missing anything.

So i can’t really comment for other systems and other people how they feel about the forms or other training methods defining the system, but I feel there is potentially a lot of room to alter those methods and still be training the system.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. The issue is that in my repertoire of strength-building, there's only so much that doesn't require some sort of equipment (weights, chin-up bar, etc.), so only so much I can manage to do during "warm-up" (in quotes, because it's not really just a warm-up). And individualizing it gets harder as more students are added - I can do a fair amount of individualizing, and a school with more students can do less. Finding an exercise that nearly everyone can do without significant alteration (so not having to stop exercises to assign different versions) means they have to leave the harder versions out a lot, so less help for the folks at the top end (including long-term students). If I had my way (enough time, money, students, and space), I'd do a 10-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight routine before each class, and offer a 20- to 30-minute kettlebell-and-bodyweight strength class twice a week for those who want to do more.


Haven't read everything yet, so my apologies if this has been addressed. There is a toom of bodyweight or basic dumbbell exercises you can do, and if i remember right, your CPS or either 60 or 90 minutes? If so, you could offer 30-60 minutes of workout friendsan beforehand, and encourage people to show for that... if they do, great. If not,  you get a free workout for yourself


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.
> 
> Class time is another big issue.  I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training.  I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.


If I even had my own space and enough students to pay for it, I'd be able to pick up enough kettlebells to add some reasonable strength training to the class. And maybe install some cleats on the walls at reasonable height for some grip/pull-up exercises, too. It doesn't take a ton of money to do something useful, but it would take some additional training to learn to teach kettlebell exercises properly.

As for the additional wear and tear - what I've always said to students is that if adding what we do in class is too much, you have to make a choice. I've actually allowed students to opt out of the "warm-up" for a class because they'd already done a lot of exercise that week, but it's easier for them to simply leave something else out if they know they're going to get some strength training with every class. Of course, for the other 98% of students, the additional strength training isn't too much - it's still less than they are capable of.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I wanted to comment further on this.
> 
> Specifically regarding forms, it is my opinion that, while specific forms are often identified with particular systems, they do not necessarily create the system.
> 
> ...


Michael, you're singing my tune here, man. I don't believe forms (nor the lack thereof) are inherent to a style/system. I firmly believe any style can be taught entirely without them, and that any style (with the right instructor, who can make proper use of them) could include forms. I take an even more basic view (if that's the right term) of forms: I believe they are best used to help the body get used to (and work on) basic movement. Within the forms, there will be some basic principles of the given system, but likely not all of them. Some things will be over-emphasized, or even exaggerated. And I believe forms are best used (after they've been learned to some reasonable degree) by playing with them, replacing movements and seeing what happens, changing directions, stance, even balance and seeing what that changes in the form...then considering what that would change with a partner/opponent present.

Or, just use them for exercise and moving meditation. Just don't get too wrapped up in their importance. They matter, but they are not the system.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 29, 2018)

Getting back to the original post, the article has some good points. I think you get what you train for (at best) and if you focus on forms without a lot of work to contextualize them to their applications for fighting you're likely to get nice looking forms and not much else. I think that as systems get older they can build up cruft that continues to be taught because it's part of the curriculum. Maybe nobody really uses these techniques and maybe nobody really understands their use anymore, which doesn't mean that it was necessarily useless to whoever added it. There's probably a lot more risk of this with systems that don't compete or "pressure test".

I do think that forms, done well, can be one way to provide a solid foundation in proper structure, body alignment, etc. and combined with proper drills can help to overcome some of the limitations inherent to sparring. They can be a useful tool, but don't stand alone in my opinion. I think drills that progress in sophistication and intensity leading to sparring are another important component. If you don't spar at all I think you need some really good drills to teach the lessons that come with sparring and I've never seen this done with complete success. I think that sparring exclusively with practitioners of your own art can lead to a lot of blind spots that are hard to overcome by other methods. Then to bring things full circle, if you spar a lot with practitioners of your own and other styles you can still end up with blind spots relating to those things that can't be allowed in sparring.

Finally, as I said earlier, you get what you train for. If your art was developed with a focus on applying techniques to opponents in medieval armor and it hasn't been modernized, it's likely to give up some efficiency in modern self defense or ring sports because it was optimized for a different purpose. Similarly, if you train exclusively for competitive arts, you gain a lot of advantages from spending your time applying your techniques against resisting opponents - on the other hand, being optimized for a rule set there's a real risk that you'll develop bad habits related to those rules - not protecting the head (some Kyokushin, TKD) not protecting or attacking the groin (anyone always in a cup) not taking knives into consideration (everyone that doesn't use knives), etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Haven't read everything yet, so my apologies if this has been addressed. There is a toom of bodyweight or basic dumbbell exercises you can do, and if i remember right, your CPS or either 60 or 90 minutes? If so, you could offer 30-60 minutes of workout friendsan beforehand, and encourage people to show for that... if they do, great. If not,  you get a free workout for yourself


Part of it is the cost of space. My current location, I'd have to "add a class", and they might or might not charge for it. If they didn't, they'd open it to other attendees. The new location we're trying to move (back) to would charge us for that time.

And there's still the cost of dumbbells, in a space where I don't control their use. They're less expensive than kettlebells, but also (IMO) a bit less useful for some of what I'd want to work on (specifically joint stability muscle development). As for bodyweight exercises, there are only so many of those that only require a floor (push-ups of all sorts, lunges, burpees, crunches and planks, etc.), I do use those and they start to lose their efficacy after a while, unless you do increasing numbers of them. Someone doing 25 push-ups (or any bodyweight exercise) per class stops developing any new strength pretty soon after being able to do those 25. That's why I'd love to have weights available.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If I even had my own space and enough students to pay for it, I'd be able to pick up enough kettlebells to add some reasonable strength training to the class. And maybe install some cleats on the walls at reasonable height for some grip/pull-up exercises, too. It doesn't take a ton of money to do something useful, but it would take some additional training to learn to teach kettlebell exercises properly.
> 
> As for the additional wear and tear - what I've always said to students is that if adding what we do in class is too much, you have to make a choice. I've actually allowed students to opt out of the "warm-up" for a class because they'd already done a lot of exercise that week, but it's easier for them to simply leave something else out if they know they're going to get some strength training with every class. Of course, for the other 98% of students, the additional strength training isn't too much - it's still less than they are capable of.


From a number of your posts it sounds like you're a good instructor and are doing a good job both with matching your curriculum to your students capabilities and with continuing to expand your knowledge base.



gpseymour said:


> As for bodyweight exercises, there are only so many of those that only require a floor (push-ups of all sorts, lunges, burpees, crunches and planks, etc.), I do use those and they start to lose their efficacy after a while, unless you do increasing numbers of them. Someone doing 25 push-ups (or any bodyweight exercise) per class stops developing any new strength pretty soon after being able to do those 25. That's why I'd love to have weights available.


This ^^^^ is where a lot of my complaints with strength training in martial arts schools comes from - body weight exercises alone become a grind with very little benefit after you've done them for a while.

I've tried and left a number of schools that put the vast majority of their focus on fitness and not on developing skills in their art. I understand there are two reasons for this, 1) (going back to something I posted on another thread) a lot of the people actually interested in the martial element of martial arts have moved to MMA/BJJ schools and thus a lot of the remaining students in TMA are there primarily to get in shape and 2) a lot of students are so out of shape that a lot of physical conditioning may be necessary for them to be able to actually learn the art effectively.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> From a number of your posts it sounds like you're a good instructor and are doing a good job both with matching your curriculum to your students capabilities and with continuing to expand your knowledge base.


I appreciate that. I try to do well for my students.




> This ^^^^ is where a lot of my complaints with strength training in martial arts schools comes from - body weight exercises alone become a grind with very little benefit after you've done them for a while.
> 
> I've tried and left a number of schools that put the vast majority of their focus on fitness and not on developing skills in their art. I understand there are two reasons for this, 1) (going back to something I posted on another thread) a lot of the people actually interested in the martial element of martial arts have moved to MMA/BJJ schools and thus a lot of the remaining students in TMA are there primarily to get in shape and 2) a lot of students are so out of shape that a lot of physical conditioning may be necessary for them to be able to actually learn the art effectively.


If it's just the first few minutes of class, I appreciate it. If a MA class goes for 30 minutes on fitness, I start to wonder why I bothered with my other fitness work. Of course, if I've not gotten to my other fitness work, I probably hate that 30 minutes.

I've heard of seminars that the first 2 hours was just to exhaust people; while there's some value to that, I'd rather be working on the material.


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## TMA17 (Jun 29, 2018)

In modern times, it seems to me that TMAs are less effective due to what has been said many times before which is the lack of sparing and conditioning.  I would argue that the style or system does matter though.  I think much of the time spent on learning forms could be better spent on conditioning and learning the basics very well if your goal is truly protecting yourself.

In 90% of most fights you see, it's either punching, kicking or ground.  Knowing that, becoming proficient with learning how to punch, kick and move are vital.  For ground/choked out etc, that is where good BJJ/Wrestling skills come in to play.  One does not have to be a blackbetl in BJJ (I would think) to be very capable against the majority of situations you'd likely encounter on the street.  In competition it would be different.

I think the style does matter to a certain extent.  There are things in Wing Chun and many other systems that I just don't think are as valuable in a modern context. Certain forms had their place at one time, but saying that style or the system doesn't matter just doesn't make sense to me.  The type of movements do matter.  It's all movements at the end of the day though and I think focusing on becoming better at basics is more valuable than spending 10 years learning numerous forms.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i would think this would be self evident.  the usefulness of any endeavor is whether or not it brings the participant to the intended goal.   what was the participant trying to achieve and was the endeavor _useful _in getting the participant to that goal?


I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim


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## JR 137 (Jun 29, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.
> 
> Class time is another big issue.  I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training.  I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.


And to add to that, if I may...
There’s also the time factor outside the dojo.  I’ve got enough free time to get in the dojo twice a week.  A full time job, a wife and 5 and 7 year old children don’t allow much time to do whatever I choose.  So it’s either go to the gym or the dojo.  And I have no desire to combine the two at the dojo.  The hour to an hour and a half of just karate seems short enough.  Replace half of that with weights?  Nope.  I’d love to alternate dojo days and weight room days 6 days a week, and even do both once or twice a week.  But my name is not Tattoo and I don’t see planes because I’m not on Fantasy Island (cheap Night at the Roxbury reference there).  

And, a lot of people join a dojo because they don’t like a traditional gym.  I’d love to do both, but I’m in an either/or position currently.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> In regards to strength training; I think this is a big part of the issue right here, unless you've got a big, professional martial arts gym there's no room for weights, etc. to do much efficient and effective strength training. Another related problem is that a lot of martial arts instructors don't actually know a lot about strength training and the mythology around that topic can be almost as bad as the mythology around some martial arts.
> 
> Class time is another big issue.  I'm a huge proponent of strength training and believe it makes a big difference in pretty much any physical pursuit. Personally, I don't want to spend a lot of time in my martial arts class working on strength training - I REALLY don't want to trade limited training time for marginally effective strength training.  I can do a better job on my own and now that I'm older I don't want any extra wear and tear on my body that doesn't produce strong results. That being said, I'm very happy with physically challenging classes that really make me sweat. Sparring or drills with minimal rest is great, especially as their own class or in the later part of class after technique focused training has been done with a fresh mind and body.


Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push  ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the  Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,

By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough. or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim


Not all things most of us on MT would call "martial arts" are fight focused. That would be the original distinction, but as arts have branched, we've applied that term to a wider range of practices.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push  ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the  Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,
> 
> By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough. or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that


Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Not all things most of us on MT would call "martial arts" are fight focused. That would be the original distinction, but as arts have branched, we've applied that term to a wider range of practices.


It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.


You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?


If they are studying Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, it's probably not high on their list. Same for fencing.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round


That's getting easier to do in the US.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> You just have to get enough fat blokes to go round


I'm not arguing you should do it, rather the argument about not having the time is bogus, 

I've got a really good bus work out, gets me a few odd looks but hell, who cares


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> If they are studying Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, it's probably not high on their list. Same for fencing.


Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm not arguing you should do it, rather the argument about not having the time is bogus,
> 
> I've got a really good bus work out, gets me a few odd looks but hell, who cares


It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence


That's beside the point. You said "interest in being better able to defend themselves" - I doubt that's what drives any significant number of people to fencing, given that a sword of any sort is generally not available.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.


I'm not say you should teach it , I'm saying the posters who claim they don't have time to do a strength work out are just making excuses


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> I'm not say you should teach it , I'm saying the posters who claim they don't have time to do a strength work out are just making excuses


Ah - misread your point, then. And I agree, even being someone who sometimes lets it fall by the wayside. I have a small collection of kettlebells, and can get in a decent strength workout in just a few minutes if I just stop and take the few minutes to do so.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's not just the time to complete the exercises - it's the organization. Two-man exercises of any sort take more organizing, and new students seem to take forever to learn that kind of thing. It's pretty easy to get a decent strength workout (even for a class) completed in 5-10 minutes if everyone knows the material. Easier to organize effectively with some weights to work with.


I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was


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## MetalBoar (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well there's certainly a lot of babble about muscle growth, but the science of strength is pretty much understood, lift , pull push  ETAL at close to your maximum and you WILL get stronger, body weight, yours or someone else's is as good as dumb bell's,, get the  Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo,
> 
> *By its very nature of using close to max strengh, strength training is very short duration, if you can do it more than 5 times, it's not heavy enough.* or do a single pull up that lasts a minute, you can't get a lot shorter that that


So I strongly agree with most of this and particularly the part I put in bold, and I'm also constantly surprised by the number of people who don't get this fundamental bit. There are also a lot of people who more or less understand this that try to get around the limitations of body weight exercises with things like plyometrics, hand stand push ups or pistol squats to increase the effort involved in the movement. While these things can have the desired effect of increasing muscular inroad they come with the trade off of increasing risk of injury. " get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo" falls in this category for me. The other problem is that it's tough to get progressive resistance from any of these methods.

I know my concerns regarding injury may seem strange in a martial arts context, but I think its one thing to get a nose broken or such in a sparring session where the risks are necessary to the learning and another to injure a knee or tear up your rotator cuff doing sub-optimal strength training.


gpseymour said:


> Easy to say. Harder to organize in a group.


I also think this is a valid point.


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## yak sao (Jun 29, 2018)

jobo said:


> I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was



I've often thought one of the hardest things to teach people is how to line up properly.


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## jobo (Jun 29, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> So I strongly agree with most of this and particularly the part I put in bold, and I'm also constantly surprised by the number of people who don't get this fundamental bit. There are also a lot of people who more or less understand this that try to get around the limitations of body weight exercises with things like plyometrics, hand stand push ups or pistol squats to increase the effort involved in the movement. While these things can have the desired effect of increasing muscular inroad they come with the trade off of increasing risk of injury. " get the Fat bloKe on your back and hOp round the,dojo" falls in this category for me. The other problem is that it's tough to get progressive resistance from any of these methods.
> 
> I know my concerns regarding injury may seem strange in a martial arts context, but I think its one thing to get a nose broken or such in a sparring session where the risks are necessary to the learning and another to injure a knee or tear up your rotator cuff doing sub-optimal strength training.
> 
> I also think this is a valid point.


Well it's not, You just adjust your hands or feet to make it more diffocult,eventually you run out of adjustment, but by that time you be ridiculous ly, strong,

I have a short length of rope, with a loop at each end, that gets used for very nearly all my exercises, I'm generally trying to break the rope, which as it has a quarter ton breaking strain isn't easy, 

So for instance, I sit on a bench, holding a loop on each hand, put my foot in the rope, and kick my leg straight, whilst pulling with my arms, and try and break the rope, as my arms get stronger, it's more of a work out for my leg, as my leg gets stronger it's more of a work out for my arms, continue for ever or until I break the rope


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> I think there's at least an implied goal of being able to fight if your learning a " fighting " art, much as someone taking swimming lessons you can assume that some where in their motivation is a desire to swim





jobo said:


> It would make an interesting questionare, ask maers, if they have no interest in being better able to defend themselves, I'm willing to bet a pound, that it's not a large % ?



thats not 100 % self evident.  lots of people say things.  if you want to know the truth you have to look at their actions not what they say.  many people say they want to lose weight, but look at their diet.  they say they want to get in shape but what is their work out routine?   the truth is in their actions.  so while they say they want to learn to defend themselves,, do they really?   its been my experience that most DO NOT want to put in the required effort to get there.  however they are more than happy to participate in an activity that gives the impression and image of prowess in fighting skills. its not the same thing as actually learning self defense.


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## jobo (Jun 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> thats not 100 % self evident.  lots of people say things.  if you want to know the truth you have to look at their actions not what they say.  many people say they want to lose weight, but look at their diet.  they say they want to get in shape but what is their work out routine?   the truth is in their actions.  so while they say they want to learn to defend themselves,, do they really?   its been my experience that most DO NOT want to put in the required effort to get there.  however they are more than happy to participate in an activity that gives the impression and image of prowess in fighting skills. its not the same thing as actually learning self defense.


That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight, if they do or not and that people who swing a kettle bell about want to be fitter, if they achieve it or not, so people who learn a fighting art, most certainly want to be better a fighting, if they ever manage that it not.

If they don't achieve that, it could well be down to not putting enough effort in or more likely they buy in to some tma, bull, and are destined to fail from the beginning,as the art is intrinsically flawed and no amount of effort is going to rescue it. that's if effort is even required, beyond say the effort needed to do a slow dance


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> Fencing takes an enormous level ofStrength \ fitness and the reactions of a fighter pilot, I'm bEtting a fEncers can put uP a robust defence


Pure fencing, yes if they have something they can use as a weapon. But otherwise a lot of the skills dont carry over. They'll be as good as any other in shape person their age. That said, about half the fencers i know also practice some form of martial art, and most of the remainders were interested in learning. And it absolutely makes it easier to teach ma


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight


what i am saying has a little more subtlety to it.  i didnt say people who ARE on a diet. what i meant, ill say it in different words this time is...look at what they eat.  i may say i want to lose weight but if i go to Mcdonalds all the time, i dont REALLY  want to lose weight.  the same is true of martial arts.  i have found most people are more interested in an activity where the effort is minimal and they are able to show up for work the next day and have all their friends and co workers believe they are a bad a$$ because they do karate.  they want the image not the actual result from hard work.


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## jobo (Jun 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> what i am saying has a little more subtlety to it.  i didnt say people who ARE on a diet. what i meant, ill say it in different words this time is...look at what they eat.  i may say i want to lose weight but if i go to Mcdonalds all the time, i dont REALLY  want to lose weight.  the same is true of martial arts.  i have found most people are more interested in an activity where the effort is minimal and they are able to show up for work the next day and have all their friends and co workers believe they are a bad a$$ because they do karate.  they want the image not the actual result from hard work.


But then being on a diet, is the same as signing up for an art, lots of people say they are going to do both, but attending is the same as actually going on a calorie control diet, plus you can eat at McDonald's a lot and still lose weight, so that doesn't make any sense at all.

But your under lying point, is that failures are due to them failing to put the effort in, rather than the art being totally unsuitable for self defence, which is more likely, non of which changes my point, that they want to learn to fight better or they wouldn't be there at all


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> I used to run management training courses , and the first excercis e, was to tell them to put themselves in to 5groups of 4, , it was chaos, the more senior the management the more chaotic it was


Yeah, I'm often amazed by how hard it is to get some groups to follow directions when they first get together.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> So for instance, I sit on a bench, holding a loop on each hand, put my foot in the rope, and kick my leg straight, whilst pulling with my arms, and try and break the rope, as my arms get stronger, it's more of a work out for my leg, as my leg gets stronger it's more of a work out for my arms, continue for ever or until I break the rope


It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 30, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's rather two separate issues, it's fair to say people who are on a diet want to lose weight, if they do or not and that people who swing a kettle bell about want to be fitter, if they achieve it or not, so people who learn a fighting art, most certainly want to be better a fighting, if they ever manage that it not.
> 
> If they don't achieve that, it could well be down to not putting enough effort in or more likely they buy in to some tma, bull, and are destined to fail from the beginning,as the art is intrinsically flawed and no amount of effort is going to rescue it. that's if effort is even required, beyond say the effort needed to do a slow dance


I'd say a closer comparison (for my earlier point) is whether their diet supports the notion they want to lose weight. If someone starts a diet that has some evidence, history, or even hype of being useful for weight loss, they probably are trying to lose weight (unless there's another thing they use that diet for). If they are on the "dine out at night, wherever you want" diet, and aren't following any guideline that they believe to be useful for weight loss, it's unlikely they intend to lose weight.


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## MetalBoar (Jun 30, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?


While I haven't tried anything exactly like Jobo is describing I expect it's pretty effective for someone who has the grit to cope with the discomfort and enough body awareness to figure out how to use this technique to get a full body workout. I know from my own experience that timed static holds can be very effective at improving strength - no movement necessary - and I've seen nothing in the scientific literature to contradict this. 

I find static holds particularly useful when working with people who have a very hard time maintaining reasonable form or when people have physical problems that limit their safe range of motion. For example, if someone has low back issues that prohibit a lot of standard exercises that might strengthen the multifidus, it's frequently possible to pin the weight stack on a spinal extension machine such that the person only has to lift the weight a short distance within their comfort zone and then hold it as long as they can. In a very few workouts I find that their strength and thus spinal stability will improve to the point that they can tolerate a full range of motion. Similarly, those who have a very weak core will frequently do all they can to avoid actually working the muscles that need it the most and it's much harder to cheat on form and engage inappropriate musculature when you aren't moving at all. Having worked as a strength trainer, the main problem I find is that many people find static holds extremely uncomfortable and don't want to do them.


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## JR 137 (Jun 30, 2018)

MetalBoar said:


> Having worked as a strength trainer, the main problem I find is that many people find static holds extremely uncomfortable and don't want to do them.


Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring.  People want to move.  Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.

People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving.  Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session?  And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial.  Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock.  I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life.  I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that.  It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.

On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball.  Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it.  They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position.  That one sucked and was great at the same time.  Time moves extra slow with that one.


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## hoshin1600 (Jun 30, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.


The problem is that you don't have ADD otherwise you would have noticed the little dots on the floor...oh look, there is a staple on the floor...I wonder how it got there ..someone could have stepped on it..I hate being in bare feet, I'm surprised I like karate because you go barefoot all the time....I really enjoy karate...hey look there are little dots on the floor,  and there is a staple over there.


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## Flying Crane (Jun 30, 2018)

We were doing standing pole meditation for over 45 minutes.  Five of us in a garage, nobody talking, arms and legs shaking, listening to the cooking timer tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick...


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## JR 137 (Jun 30, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> The problem is that you don't have ADD otherwise you would have noticed the little dots on the floor...oh look, there is a staple on the floor...I wonder how it got there ..someone could have stepped on it..I hate being in bare feet, I'm surprised I like karate because you go barefoot all the time....I really enjoy karate...hey look there are little dots on the floor,  and there is a staple over there.


Now that you put it that way, maybe I do have ADD.  Stuff like that goes through my head during times like those.  Along with calling myself every swear word in the book because I want to stop the exercise.

A good friend of mine taught me Turkish Getups.  All I could think of while doing them was “stop being such a F’in p-word.”  “This is why I’m such a fat POS” and “I really hate the M-F’er.  I’d kick his ***, but I’ve got to do more of these to have a chance.”

That’s all interrupted by “those are pretty cool sneakers.  I’ve got to get a new pair because my feet are starting to hurt.  And my shoes are starting to smell.  I wonder if anyone else can smell them.  Why does the floor I’m laying down on smell?  Did someone step in doo-doo and stand here?  Remember when I stepped in doo-doo and tracked it into Paulie’s house?  His mother was pissed.  I wonder if she still works with those youth offenders.  Those guys are pretty messed up.  I wouldn’t do that job for any amount of money.  I wonder if I’m getting a raise this year.  Last year’s raise sucked.  Hopefully I get enough to buy a new car.  I hate driving an suv.  Damn kids.  If it weren’t for them, I’d be driving a coupe.  Yeah, but they’re worth it.  I miss my little girls.  Oh yeah, I’m going to kill Pat for showing me these Getups.  Stop being such a p-word and get through it...” 

Is that ADD or just psychosis?  Or both?


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## Hudson69 (Jun 30, 2018)

I feel that most systems offer something but ultimately it is up to how it is presented, practiced and how the student chooses to absorb it. If you teach it like it is simply a way to stay healthy and the combative/defensive aspect does not appear and even if it is, is it realistic?  From the student perspective you can also have a student who is studying it just to study it and regardless of how it is presented they would not be likely to use it effectively as a form of defense.  You can also have someone who can use tai chi in the park to wreak havoc.  

I have had the opportunity to experience a wide variety of systems. Two that come off as less than stellar (to me) are Budo Taijutsu and PPCT. My X-Kan was always instructed as being "way to dangerous" to spar with (okay ) and (again based off of my experience) PPCT always seemed to breeze over the combative(s) portion so that the pressure point portion of the system could be over emphasized. 

So to reiterate I think Wing Chun is great and it can be a great combat system but there are a lot of factors that take into account beyond just the system. I think MMA is great but in a practical, outside the ring situation maybe no so much.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It's my understanding that this doesn't develop much strength beyond the point at which it's held. The muscles aren't trained to any other position if the arm and leg are stationary in the exercise. Is there something new I haven't caught up on?


Yes your missing something, possibly from my description, isometric increase strength for about 15 degrees each side of the point of hold,but increase muscle size over the whole muscle, so you Then have the potential to be stronger at all angles, but that's not fundamentally what I'm trying to describe, I start with my arms tucked up close
Tp  to my body and my leg tucked up toWards my  chest, and then force the leg outwards whilst resisting with my arms, which are dragged forwards as my leg straightens, so not quite the full range of motion but not far off, and very much in the useful , drag someone over zone, I do this very slowly so there is a Significant contraction right through the range in moving, mean while my core is in a isometric contraction Durring the whole exercise, so you get an additional benefit from that,

It's really my lazy day to hOt to do much exercise, excersise, I'm also Fond of throwing the rope over a branch, turning my body so it's swinging horizontal to the ground, and then doing pull ups, which also hits the Core very hard, but doesn't have a leg components.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> We were doing standing pole meditation for over 45 minutes.  Five of us in a garage, nobody talking, arms and legs shaking, listening to the cooking timer tick tick tick tick tick tick tick tick...


This needs music, !!!!!


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring.  People want to move.  Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.
> 
> People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving.  Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session?  And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial.  Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock.  I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life.  I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that.  It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.
> 
> On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball.  Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it.  They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position.  That one sucked and was great at the same time.  Time moves extra slow with that one.


Holds are hard, that's because they are effective, but just doing holds is one dimentional, so an entire session of holds isn't possibly the best work out, isokinetic, Or yielding isometric,moves on thE other hand are both extremely effective and have movement,

I'm not a big fan of planks, to be honest, you may as well do some forearm raises whilst your down there, but the issue of progressive overload applies, once your up in the 2,3,5 minute range it's to easy,,,,,,, make it more difficult and get it down to the one min mark again, getting  Someone to sit in the small of your back works well, or plank with just you head and your feet, or go and do L sits instead


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## Ironbear24 (Jul 1, 2018)

I ignored the article completely because that dead horse has been atomized already.


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## MetalBoar (Jul 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Tp  to my body and my leg tucked up toWards my  chest, and then force the leg outwards whilst resisting with my arms, which are dragged forwards as my leg straightens, so not quite the full range of motion but not far off, and very much in the useful , drag someone over zone, I do this very slowly so there is a Significant contraction right through the range in moving, mean while my core is in a isometric contraction Durring the whole exercise, so you get an additional benefit from that,
> 
> It's really my lazy day to hOt to do much exercise, excersise, I'm also Fond of throwing the rope over a branch, turning my body so it's swinging horizontal to the ground, and then doing pull ups, which also hits the Core very hard, but doesn't have a leg components.


Interesting approach, I like it! I didn't fully get what you were doing from your original post but this makes it clear. I may have to give this a try - I really like what I'm doing at present but I don't like the amount of equipment it requires.



jobo said:


> I'm not a big fan of planks, to be honest, you may as well do some forearm raises whilst your down there, but the issue of progressive overload applies, *once your up in the 2,3,5 minute range it's to easy*,,,,,,, make it more difficult and get it down to the one min mark again, getting Someone to sit in the small of your back works well, or plank with just you head and your feet, or go and do L sits instead


I completely agree with this - I feel that for strength training, if you can perform an exercise for 90 seconds or more it's definitely time to increase the resistance, and even shorter duration/higher load may be called for in some instances.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 1, 2018)

Hudson69 said:


> I feel that most systems offer something but ultimately it is up to how it is presented, practiced and how the student chooses to absorb it. If you teach it like it is simply a way to stay healthy and the combative/defensive aspect does not appear and even if it is, is it realistic?  From the student perspective you can also have a student who is studying it just to study it and regardless of how it is presented they would not be likely to use it effectively as a form of defense.  You can also have someone who can use tai chi in the park to wreak havoc.
> 
> I have had the opportunity to experience a wide variety of systems. Two that come off as less than stellar (to me) are Budo Taijutsu and PPCT. My X-Kan was always instructed as being "way to dangerous" to spar with (okay ) and (again based off of my experience) PPCT always seemed to breeze over the combative(s) portion so that the pressure point portion of the system could be over emphasized.
> 
> So to reiterate I think Wing Chun is great and it can be a great combat system but there are a lot of factors that take into account beyond just the system. I think MMA is great but in a practical, outside the ring situation maybe no so much.


Specifically, what makes MMA less than ideal outside of a ring when compared to classical Wing Chun? This is of particular interest to me as a long time WC guy that trains in MMA now.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Not only are they extremely uncomfortable, but they’re extremely boring.  People want to move.  Mike Boyle said something along the lines of he’d love to have his clients plank for hours, but people would be bored out of their minds and quit immediately.
> 
> People don’t feel like they’re getting a good workout if they’re not moving.  Would you want to pay someone to train you and they tell you to hold this position for 5 minutes, then they tell you to hold another position for 5 minutes, and on and on the entire session?  And the go back for more? I sure wouldn’t, even though I know it’s very beneficial.  Time has a way of really dragging when I’m holding a position and watching the clock.  I was up to holding a plank for 2 minutes at a time at one point. The absolute longest 2 minutes of my life.  I thought 3 minute periods in wrestling were long before I started that.  It wasn’t that it was overly painful or uncomfortable (not that it wasn’t at all), I was just way too ADD for it (still am), and I don’t have ADD.
> 
> On a side note, a great one to hold is doing a sit-up of sorts - go up past a crunch, and bring your knees in like putting yourself into a ball.  Have a thick band around your torso and in your hands, while someone is pulling on it.  They should be pulling hard enough to make you work hard, yet not so hard that it’s impossible to hold the position.  That one sucked and was great at the same time.  Time moves extra slow with that one.


You're one of the ones I'd look to for an informed answer on this. I seem to remember reading about results of partial-motion exercises (doing only part of a bench press, for instance - the part that's easiest to do), and that it didn't produce strength across the full range of the exercise, as doing the full-range exercise would do. The article I remember was something preliminary - is there more complete information on that now?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Now that you put it that way, maybe I do have ADD.  Stuff like that goes through my head during times like those.  Along with calling myself every swear word in the book because I want to stop the exercise.
> 
> A good friend of mine taught me Turkish Getups.  All I could think of while doing them was “stop being such a F’in p-word.”  “This is why I’m such a fat POS” and “I really hate the M-F’er.  I’d kick his ***, but I’ve got to do more of these to have a chance.”
> 
> ...


If it's in your head, it's ADD. If you say it out loud, it's schizophrenia.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes your missing something, possibly from my description, isometric increase strength for about 15 degrees each side of the point of hold,but increase muscle size over the whole muscle, so you Then have the potential to be stronger at all angles, but that's not fundamentally what I'm trying to describe, I start with my arms tucked up close
> Tp  to my body and my leg tucked up toWards my  chest, and then force the leg outwards whilst resisting with my arms, which are dragged forwards as my leg straightens, so not quite the full range of motion but not far off, and very much in the useful , drag someone over zone, I do this very slowly so there is a Significant contraction right through the range in moving, mean while my core is in a isometric contraction Durring the whole exercise, so you get an additional benefit from that,
> 
> It's really my lazy day to hOt to do much exercise, excersise, I'm also Fond of throwing the rope over a branch, turning my body so it's swinging horizontal to the ground, and then doing pull ups, which also hits the Core very hard, but doesn't have a leg components.


Ah! Yeah, I missed that in the original description. Your "15 degrees" fits my understanding. As I was typing that, I was actually thinking it would be more useful if you only used what was necessary to barely be able to move through the range of motion - which is what you're actually doing. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You're one of the ones I'd look to for an informed answer on this. I seem to remember reading about results of partial-motion exercises (doing only part of a bench press, for instance - the part that's easiest to do), and that it didn't produce strength across the full range of the exercise, as doing the full-range exercise would do. The article I remember was something preliminary - is there more complete information on that now?


I haven’t looked for nor seen anything about that.  I remember seeing some stuff in the past about starting your lift at maximum tension yielding better results though, so that may or may not feed into what you’re asking.

Maximum tension in this instance (and I might be using the wrong terms here) meaning like bench press - people tend to bounce the weight off their chest a bit to get some momentum, or cut the downward phase short a bit.  The most effective way is to lower it completely, pause, then press.  Basically like starting from a dead stop on your chest every rep.

Same for every exercise - pull-up, dip, squat, curls, etc.  Rather than getting into a rhythm where motion never stops, treat every rep like it’s the first rep from a standstill.

Kettlebell swings and the like are probably exceptions to this, as their focus is on constant motion.  

I’ve also seen many studies saying after a certain point in the lift, the resistance decreases significantly due to momentum.  So the first 2/3 of a bench press motion is where 90% of the work is done, and the last 1/3 doesn’t do much for you.  Don’t hold me to specific numbers by any means. The entire range of motion is very important, but the final however much doesn’t get much resistance.  That’s where those isometric machines PTs used to love work their magic - they had a constant resistance throughout the entire ROM.  They were wildly popular and desired in the 80s-mid 90s, but the machines were huge, only did one motion, and were absurdly expensive, so most PT clinics only had one or two different machines at most.

Hope this somewhat answers your question.  Wait, what was your question exactly?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I haven’t looked for nor seen anything about that.  I remember seeing some stuff in the past about starting your lift at maximum tension yielding better results though, so that may or may not feed into what you’re asking.
> 
> Maximum tension in this instance (and I might be using the wrong terms here) meaning like bench press - people tend to bounce the weight off their chest a bit to get some momentum, or cut the downward phase short a bit.  The most effective way is to lower it completely, pause, then press.  Basically like starting from a dead stop on your chest every rep.
> 
> ...


It does, sort of. I'll see if I can remember where I saw that article about partial motion (interestingly, it was about doing something like the first 1/3 of bench press) not developing strength for the full range.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> It does, sort of. I'll see if I can remember where I saw that article about partial motion (interestingly, it was about doing something like the first 1/3 of bench press) not developing strength for the full range.


They needed a scientific study to determine that?  

Seriously though, if you can find it, I’d like to read it.  I’m sure there was something genuinely useful in it. I guess it’s the nerd in me hidden behind this ultra-cool exterior


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 1, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> They needed a scientific study to determine that?
> 
> Seriously though, if you can find it, I’d like to read it.  I’m sure there was something genuinely useful in it. I guess it’s the nerd in me hidden behind this ultra-cool exterior


It was in response to a fad in bodybuilding at the time - doing the easiest part of the exercise at max x-rep weight, rather than the lower weight you could do the full range. They found that doing max weight for the reduced range didn't have as much impact on full-range development as doing the full range on lower weight. Seems logical, but had to be established since someone was pushing the short-range exercise as a better alternative.


----------



## Hudson69 (Jul 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Specifically, what makes MMA less than ideal outside of a ring when compared to classical Wing Chun? This is of particular interest to me as a long time WC guy that trains in MMA now.


I don't want to compare it to WC specifically. I just feel that MMA is taught/pushed toward competition, one on one. While aspect of mixing your martial training to cover a wide variety of areas is a good thing: different ranges; standing; ground. Focussing on just one opponent could be a problem. This could be even more of an issue if your training emphasized ground fighting. A second opponent in that situation might be disastrous.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2018)

Hudson69 said:


> I don't want to compare it to WC specifically. I just feel that MMA is taught/pushed toward competition, one on one. While aspect of mixing your martial training to cover a wide variety of areas is a good thing: different ranges; standing; ground. Focussing on just one opponent could be a problem. This could be even more of an issue if your training emphasized ground fighting. A second opponent in that situation might be disastrous.


A second Opponent in most cases is disastrous, unless you can knock people over very quickly, which is not a noted part of wc,


----------



## Martial D (Jul 3, 2018)

Hudson69 said:


> I don't want to compare it to WC specifically. I just feel that MMA is taught/pushed toward competition, one on one. While aspect of mixing your martial training to cover a wide variety of areas is a good thing: different ranges; standing; ground. Focussing on just one opponent could be a problem. This could be even more of an issue if your training emphasized ground fighting. A second opponent in that situation might be disastrous.


This is a bit of logic that eludes me, yet a point I have seen come up many many times.

Apparently the world is full of martial artists that cant beat a single opponent yet when there are two or more can win with some regularity.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> This is a bit of logic that eludes me, yet a point I have seen come up many many times.
> 
> Apparently the world is full of martial artists that cant beat a single opponent yet when there are two or more can win with some regularity.



well the logic is sound if you look at it in the way im sure he intended.
if you are in someones guard or are mounted it is quite easy for someone you didnt see before, to walk up and hit you over the head with a chair or knife you.  so i think his point was that pure focus on the ground work has its drawbacks.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jul 3, 2018)

jobo said:


> A second Opponent in most cases is disastrous, unless you can knock people over very quickly, which is not a noted part of wc,



Other people can get really brave once they see the person on the floor, then jump in the fight themselves. Typically though this argument shouldn't prevent anyone from doing the ground styles they enjoy.


----------



## Ironbear24 (Jul 3, 2018)

Martial D said:


> This is a bit of logic that eludes me, yet a point I have seen come up many many times.
> 
> Apparently the world is full of martial artists that cant beat a single opponent yet when there are two or more can win with some regularity.



Where are these martial artists at? I've never seen anyone say they can beat more than one but never just one.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 3, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> well the logic is sound if you look at it in the way im sure he intended.
> if you are in someones guard or are mounted it is quite easy for someone you didnt see before, to walk up and hit you over the head with a chair or knife you.  so i think his point was that pure focus on the ground work has its drawbacks.


Sure, I mean if you are shooting doubles against a guy that has buddies around you could be in for a soccer kick or two.

But on the other hand, is a trained grappler more or less likely to get taken down against his will?

And if you are on the ground against your will, would you rather know how to escape from there or no?

I still don't see the disadvantage.


----------



## Martial D (Jul 3, 2018)

Ironbear24 said:


> Where are these martial artists at? I've never seen anyone say they can beat more than one but never just one.


Never? This is a decades old criticism of bjj and MMA, I'm surprised it's new for you.

You know...ya but multiple opponents. It's usually accompanied by ya but eye gouges and groin kicks.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 3, 2018)

Ironbear24 said:


> Where are these martial artists at? I've never seen anyone say they can beat more than one but never just one.


Ive heard it. The argument generally goes "mma is good for one on one, but not for a group in the street. That's why (x style) is better, it trains you for the street against multiple attackers." Followed by some sort of reasoning about why you don't see it in the ring.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2018)

Ironbear24 said:


> Where are these martial artists at? I've never seen anyone say they can beat more than one but never just one.


I believe Fezzik the giant said something like this.


----------



## wckf92 (Jul 3, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> well the logic is sound if you look at it in the way im sure he intended.
> if you are in someones guard or are mounted it is quite easy for someone you didnt see before, to walk up and hit you over the head with a chair or knife you.  so i think his point was that pure focus on the ground work has its drawbacks.



Yup...this happened to a buddy of mine who was keen on the grappling stuff. He saw a guy in a fight, figured he'd go lend a hand...but while he was on the ground doing his grappling stuff, a second and third bad guy showed up and showed him the error of his BJJ game. 
After this, he had a different opinion of ground stuff.


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## wckf92 (Jul 3, 2018)

Flying Crane said:


> I believe Fezzik the giant said something like this.



"...are there rocks ahead?"...


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## MetalBoar (Jul 3, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> "...are there rocks ahead?"...


I think the appropriate quote might be, "Rest well and dream of large women."


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Yup...this happened to a buddy of mine who was keen on the grappling stuff. He saw a guy in a fight, figured he'd go lend a hand...but while he was on the ground doing his grappling stuff, a second and third bad guy showed up and showed him the error of his BJJ game.
> After this, he had a different opinion of ground stuff.


To be able to beat two guys, it's a pre requirement that you can beat just one of them, if you can't it's pointless discussing which art you are going to use for the best results with two bad guys, totally pointless, if there are THREE bad guys you have lost anyway round, so it's even more pointless discussing which art is best,


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Yup...this happened to a buddy of mine who was keen on the grappling stuff. He saw a guy in a fight, figured he'd go lend a hand...but while he was on the ground doing his grappling stuff, a second and third bad guy showed up and showed him the error of his BJJ game.
> After this, he had a different opinion of ground stuff.


Would he have been able to handle both or all 3 on his feet?  If not, would he have criticized his standup skills/style and say he should’ve taken them to the ground?

Just trying to keep it balanced here.  This isn’t a grappling fanboy post.  I wrestled and coached wrestling for quite some time.  I’ve been in karate for quite some time as well.  Knowing what I know, I’d do everything to stay on my feet.  Once I’m on the ground, I’m locked into that position without much hope of a quick escape regardless of how in control I am of the situation.  On my feet, I can at least try to scramble a bit if I’m lucky.

But let’s be serious... either way, on the ground or on my feet, 3 guys will eventually have their way with me.  It’s just a matter of time.  Unless of course they’re 10 year olds, then I like my chances a bit better


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## Jaeimseu (Jul 3, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> But let’s be serious... either way, on the ground or on my feet, 3 guys will eventually have their way with me.  It’s just a matter of time.  Unless of course they’re 10 year olds, then I like my chances a bit better



I agree here, unless those 10 year olds are unusually large. I don’t believe any style realistically prepares students to face multiple attackers intent on causing harm. The “BJJ will get you killed against multiple attackers” crowd somehow forget that you may not have the choice of staying on your feet. Or maybe they think BJJers all train to pull guard in street fights. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Flying Crane (Jul 3, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> "...are there rocks ahead?"...


...if there are, we’ll all be dead!


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

Jaeimseu said:


> I agree here, unless those 10 year olds are unusually large. I don’t believe any style realistically prepares students to face multiple attackers intent on causing harm. The “BJJ will get you killed against multiple attackers” crowd somehow forget that you may not have the choice of staying on your feet. Or maybe they think BJJers all train to pull guard in street fights.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but a 10 year old isn’t going to take an adult’s punch very well, no matter how unusually large he may be.  He’ll run away crying.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Yeah, but a 10 year old isn’t going to take an adult’s punch very well, no matter how unusually large he may be.  He’ll run away crying.


Okay, Kramer.


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## JR 137 (Jul 3, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, Kramer.


I’m Cosmo Kramer, the assman.  I don’t need karate.  I can just wring their necks


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2018)

If you believe that you can't defeat multiple opponents - that will be a self fulfilling prophecy. I wish you all the luck in the world. I taught "_Controlling and Defeating Multiple Opponents_" for years in Federal Law Enforcement to officers, response teams and undercover officers. 

So let me ask you guys this - if three people came at you and you couldn't escape......what, you would just give up and take the beating, maybe die? What?


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> If you believe that you can't defeat multiple opponents - that will be a self fulfilling prophecy. I wish you all the luck in the world. I taught "_Controlling and Defeating Multiple Opponents_" for years in Federal Law Enforcement to officers, response teams and undercover officers.
> 
> So let me ask you guys this - if three people came at you and you couldn't escape......what, you would just give up and take the beating, maybe die? What?


So how many times have you defeated multiple attackers then ?


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## _Simon_ (Jul 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, Kramer.





JR 137 said:


> I’m Cosmo Kramer, the assman.  I don’t need karate.  I can just wring their necks


Hahahaha....

I sense another vid clip coming XDXD


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> So let me ask you guys this - if three people came at you and you couldn't escape......what, you would just give up and take the beating, maybe die? What?


Great post!!   This really illuminates the bias of conceptual thinking.  
There is nothing more real, more awake then when your adrenaline is pumping and it's "GoTime"   ...people get lost in the dreamy state of dialog and conceptual thinking.  They mistake the dream for reality.  Once in a while we need that person who walks up and gives us a dope slap to wake us up.
For me , in this particular instance  it revealed the ideological thinking bias of styles and stock arguments and responses that go along with it.

Sorry if I'm not making sense I just woke up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> If you believe that you can't defeat multiple opponents - that will be a self fulfilling prophecy. I wish you all the luck in the world. I taught "_Controlling and Defeating Multiple Opponents_" for years in Federal Law Enforcement to officers, response teams and undercover officers.
> 
> So let me ask you guys this - if three people came at you and you couldn't escape......what, you would just give up and take the beating, maybe die? What?


I've been asked before various forms of "how many attackers is too many to beat", and my answer is "I don't know, and won't know until they beat me. If I can't get out of the situation any other way, I'll fight to win until I can't." I've only had a chance to interview a few (maybe only a couple - can't think of more than that at the moment) of people who've ever actually fought multiple attackers. I've found a number of good examples (and a lot of bad ones) in video format. It's clearly possible, especially if you can control one quickly (KO produces a high degree of control) and manage the space and distance so they aren't able to attack at the same time.

Against a well-coordinated group, it all goes to hell quickly, which causes problems in training multiple-attacker scenarios in the training room.


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 4, 2018)

I remember in my very first style of karate many years ago (considered by many to be a Mcdojo), one of the head instructors said if you're a 1st Dan black belt, you should be able to defend against one person. 2nd Dan, two people. 3rd Dan, you should be able to defend against three. (Not kidding!)

Come ooon, let's round up some 10th Dans and see what happens!


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've been asked before various forms of "how many attackers is too many to beat", and my answer is "I don't know, and won't know until they beat me. If I can't get out of the situation any other way, I'll fight to win until I can't." I've only had a chance to interview a few (maybe only a couple - can't think of more than that at the moment) of people who've ever actually fought multiple attackers. I've found a number of good examples (and a lot of bad ones) in video format. It's clearly possible, especially if you can control one quickly (KO produces a high degree of control) and manage the space and distance so they aren't able to attack at the same time.
> 
> Against a well-coordinated group, it all goes to hell quickly, which causes problems in training multiple-attacker scenarios in the training room.


We have had this conversation before, yes it's possible dependent on the levels of ability of you v attackers, or big strong, you , they are, how determined they are, how quickly the bouncers break it up etal,

You need the ability to caLapsr any one of them in two or three seconds, to stand even the remotest chance, if you can't do that then it's as good as over, they don't take turns like they do in the movies. if who ever your instructing can't beat any one of them very quickly, there's no point teaching how to fight three
You can not fight three people At once and hope to win, you can if your good fight three people in quick succession
Or learn to fight whilst running backwards at a good speed, running backwards is a much neglected skill


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## JR 137 (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> So how many times have you defeated multiple attackers then ?


As a career LEO, I’m sure he’s had to a face more than one bad guy at a time few times until backup arrived.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> As a career LEO, I’m sure he’s had to a face more than one bad guy at a time few times until backup arrived.


I'm sure he has, but that doesn't mean he has defeated them with out a weapon, I'm sure he can answer for himself. 

There was a case in the UK a few years ago, where one bad guy beat up badly about 10 policemen, I really doubt he could teach anyone else who hadn't spent 10 years in steroid induced bodybuilding to do the same


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## wckf92 (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> There was a case in the UK a few years ago, where one bad guy beat up badly about 10 policemen,



Did the policemen have firearms?


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Did the policemen have firearms?


No, they tend not to in the uk, just extendable battons, he brushed them aside like flies, iS one quOte I remember at the time, a number were badly injured


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## Flying Crane (Jul 4, 2018)

I would hope that nobody would just sit back and embrace defeat in the face of multiple assailants.  I think most people would give it their all, do what they can.

From the standpoint of an academic discussion, it is fair to recognize that three assailants, if they are not completely incompetent, is a bad situation and you will likely lose.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> We have had this conversation before, yes it's possible dependent on the levels of ability of you v attackers, or big strong, you , they are, how determined they are, how quickly the bouncers break it up etal,
> 
> You need the ability to caLapsr any one of them in two or three seconds, to stand even the remotest chance, if you can't do that then it's as good as over, they don't take turns like they do in the movies. if who ever your instructing can't beat any one of them very quickly, there's no point teaching how to fight three
> You can not fight three people At once and hope to win, you can if your good fight three people in quick succession
> Or learn to fight whilst running backwards at a good speed, running backwards is a much neglected skill


Yes. That is the point of the training.


----------



## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Yes. That is the point of the training.


Well as I've sugested, if who ever your training Can't see off an attacker in a few seconds, then there is no point learning how to fight multiples, they would be better Of improving their one to one skills, until they are good enough. to go wiz baNgy thump =floor every time, 

It's really bordering on fantasy, to suggest it's any use at all other wise


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> Well as I've sugested, if who ever your training Can't see off an attacker in a few seconds, then there is no point learning how to fight multiples, they would be better Of improving their one to one skills, until they are good enough. to go wiz baNgy thump =floor every time,
> 
> It's really bordering on fantasy, to suggest it's any use at all other wise


I've never said otherwise. Not sure why you keep restating that.


----------



## Buka (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> So how many times have you defeated multiple attackers then ?



Several times, bro. But the first time I "experienced" multiples was when I was seventeen, shortly before I began any Martial training. And, oh, what a beating I got. Even got peed on by one of them when it was over. Interesting thing about that, at least to me and mine, it was behind a pool hall - that would later become my dojo some fifteen years later. And even more interesting, at least to me - one of the guys who beat on me, walked in to sign up his son some twenty years later.

Since then I've been fortunate enough to experience some great training, great jobs, and some historical events that involved, for lack of a better term, fricken riots where people were trying to kill each other.

And, you, Jobo, what's your experience in such things?


----------



## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> Several times, bro. But the first time I "experienced" multiples was when I was seventeen, shortly before I began any Martial training. And, oh, what a beating I got. Even got peed on by one of them when it was over. Interesting thing about that, at least to me and mine, it was behind a pool hall - that would later become my dojo some fifteen years later. And even more interesting, at least to me - one of the guys who beat on me, walked in to sign up his son some twenty years later.
> 
> Since then I've been fortunate enough to experience some great training, great jobs, and some historical events that involved, for lack of a better term, fricken riots where people were trying to kill each other.
> 
> And, you, Jobo, what's your experience in such things?


Yes I've been in a few riots myself, got a belting telly back in 81, it nearly killed me getting it home, they were very heavy back then


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## Buka (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes I've been in a few riots myself, got a belting telly back in 81, it nearly killed me getting it home, they were very heavy back then



I don't know what a "belting telly" is but I'm guessing it sucks. I feel your pain, bro.


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

Buka said:


> I don't know what a "belting telly" is but I'm guessing it sucks. I feel your pain, bro.


A good quality television set, with a flatter squareR screen, when square screens were the thing


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## CB Jones (Jul 4, 2018)

jobo said:


> A good quality television set, with a flatter squareR screen, when square screens were the thing



Wait....are you saying you stole a TV during a riot?


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## jobo (Jul 4, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Wait....are you saying you stole a TV during a riot?


Appropriated, it was just saT there on the road, so I took it home for safety, I bet the guy was furious when he came back with a shopping trolley, it was murder getting it home on a motorbike


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2018)

Ironically the worst riots for me were underage discos.

They would just spit 1200 kids out on the streets. And they would just go for it. 

We were a bit gang heavy at the time.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 4, 2018)

I’ve been in two riots.  The first was after a soccer game in Lima, Peru.  Being 15 years old and out of the country for the first time, it was an interesting experience.  That one was cover up and run.  The can of tear gas that landed a few feet in front of me dispersed the crowd around us pretty quickly.

The second one was in front of my fraternity house.  It was alumni weekend at our college, and somehow two guys fighting in front of our house, which was directly across the street from the bar, turned into a 300+ person melee.  Two fraternities, 3 sports teams, and a ton of alumni of all of those.  It was keep your head on a swivel and hit anything that comes at you.  Only one guy genuinely involved walked away completely unscathed - my fraternity brother Elmar. Elmar grew up on the streets of Bangkok and trained and fought Muay Thai from the day he could walk until he “escaped and came here for college” (his words).  I’ve never seen that many people get dismantled with such ease as I saw Elmar do that night.  After college, Elmar got citizenship, enlisted in the Marine Corps, and last I heard he was a drill instructor.  No surprise at all.  I wish we were in college at the same time.  Being a Kyokushin guy at the time, it would’ve been interesting working out together.  At least interesting for me, as I’d probably just get smacked around.


----------



## Hudson69 (Jul 5, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Would he have been able to handle both or all 3 on his feet?  If not, would he have criticized his standup skills/style and say he should’ve taken them to the ground?
> 
> Just trying to keep it balanced here.  This isn’t a grappling fanboy post.  I wrestled and coached wrestling for quite some time.  I’ve been in karate for quite some time as well.  Knowing what I know, I’d do everything to stay on my feet.  Once I’m on the ground, I’m locked into that position without much hope of a quick escape regardless of how in control I am of the situation.  On my feet, I can at least try to scramble a bit if I’m lucky.
> 
> But let’s be serious... either way, on the ground or on my feet, 3 guys will eventually have their way with me.  It’s just a matter of time.  Unless of course they’re 10 year olds, then I like my chances a bit better



I think this is one of the points I was thinking of. I would be less concerned about beating someone (or even two if possible) as opposed to the option of simply disengaging as the better part of valor. Its much harder to leave a situation if you're in a ground fighting clinch. 

I have no disrespect for grapplers wherever they come from.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 5, 2018)

Hudson69 said:


> I think this is one of the points I was thinking of. I would be less concerned about beating someone (or even two if possible) as opposed to the option of simply disengaging as the better part of valor. Its much harder to leave a situation if you're in a ground fighting clinch.
> 
> I have no disrespect for grapplers wherever they come from.


With multiple people pursuing, getting out once you engage is pretty tough, no matter how you've chosen to engage. I might outrun one person by choosing the right direction. With more than one, there are fewer directions where my exit line is shorter and less cluttered than theirs.


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## Anarax (Jul 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> Several times, bro. But the first time I "experienced" multiples was when I was seventeen, shortly before I began any Martial training. And, oh, what a beating I got. Even got peed on by one of them when it was over. Interesting thing about that, at least to me and mine, it was behind a pool hall - that would later become my dojo some fifteen years later. And even more interesting, at least to me - one of the guys who beat on me, walked in to sign up his son some twenty years later.
> 
> Since then I've been fortunate enough to experience some great training, great jobs, and some historical events that involved, for lack of a better term, fricken riots where people were trying to kill each other.
> 
> And, you, Jobo, what's your experience in such things?


Wow, thank you for sharing such a personal and meaningful story. I'm sorry for your horrific experience, but it seems it might have influenced you taking up training.


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## Anarax (Jul 5, 2018)

Buka said:


> If you believe that you can't defeat multiple opponents - that will be a self fulfilling prophecy. I wish you all the luck in the world. I taught "_Controlling and Defeating Multiple Opponents_" for years in Federal Law Enforcement to officers, response teams and undercover officers.



Well, for me to take your opinion seriously you need to have had defeated at least 100 men, all armed with machetes, two machetes per man. If you haven't, then how can you really know for sure? Don't bring your logic into this.


----------



## Buka (Jul 6, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Well, for me to take your opinion seriously you need to have had defeated at least 100 men, all armed with machetes, two machetes per man. If you haven't, then how can you really know for sure? Don't bring your logic into this.



I really don't like machetes, they scare me. When I train with them they tend to make me very nervous. My edged weapons instructor loves the fricken things. He trains people world wild who actually use them as part of their daily life. Me, I have no experience with them other than the occasional class, nor do I want any experience with the damn things. Thank you, but no.

As for logic....bro, come to Maui. It's a really nice place. I have a dojo at my disposal. It's a cool setting, no pressure no hassle. I'll show you anything you want to know. Promise. At least think about it.

Same goes for anybody else. I know, I know, coming to Maui is such a hassle.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> I really don't like machetes, they scare me. When I train with them they tend to make me very nervous. My edged weapons instructor loves the fricken things. He trains people world wild who actually use them as part of their daily life. Me, I have no experience with them other than the occasional class, nor do I want any experience with the damn things. Thank you, but no.
> 
> As for logic....bro, come to Maui. It's a really nice place. I have a dojo at my disposal. It's a cool setting, no pressure no hassle. I'll show you anything you want to know. Promise. At least think about it.
> 
> Same goes for anybody else. I know, I know, coming to Maui is such a hassle.


The Hobbit and I were discussing that last night (as I was making plans with a much nearer MT-er). Maui is definitely on the short list for next year, brother.


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## wckf92 (Jul 6, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The Hobbit and I were discussing that last night (as I was making plans with a much nearer MT-er). Maui is definitely on the short list for next year, brother.



you were discussing machetes with a Hobbit(?)


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 6, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> you were discussing machetes with a Hobbit(?)


Actually, that happened recently, too! I discuss many things with the Hobbit. It's a very silly place, here.


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## Anarax (Jul 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> As for logic....bro, come to Maui. It's a really nice place. I have a dojo at my disposal. It's a cool setting, no pressure no hassle. I'll show you anything you want to know. Promise. At least think about it.


Sounds very nice



Buka said:


> Same goes for anybody else. I know, I know, coming to Maui is such a hassle.


I don't think coming is the challenging, but leaving will be.


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## Buka (Jul 6, 2018)

Somebody just sent me this. There's really good control....and then there's this. Just wow.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 6, 2018)

Buka said:


> Somebody just sent me this. There's really good control....and then there's this. Just wow.


Impressive athleticism and showmanship.

The problem is, that is not traditional Chinese martial arts.  That is Modern Wushu, developed in the 1950s by the Chinese government as a demonstration and performance art and a competition sport. It is more akin to a gymnastics floor routine with a martial flavor.  The Chinese government did more than anyone else to contribute to the demise of Traditional Chinese martial arts, when they developed and pushed this method onto the Chinese population while actively persecuting those who practiced the traditional methods during the cultural revolution.  Even now the government supports Modern Wushu while discouraging the traditional methods.

They are impressive athletes, but I don’t like it.  It feels like a mockery to me.


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## Buka (Jul 6, 2018)

I know nothing of Wushu, traditional nor modernized. I just liked watching that, though.


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## drop bear (Jul 6, 2018)

Hudson69 said:


> I think this is one of the points I was thinking of. I would be less concerned about beating someone (or even two if possible) as opposed to the option of simply disengaging as the better part of valor. Its much harder to leave a situation if you're in a ground fighting clinch.
> 
> I have no disrespect for grapplers wherever they come from.



Not really. In ground fighting i still have gravity.

So if i cant disengage from a standing clinch i can still take the guy down put a knee in to something and using that as a lever to get back up.

There are standing rear naked defences that work through that.






Fighting is a puzzle. And sometimes you have to take the roundabout route to solve them.


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## alcm93 (Jul 11, 2018)

Interesting! From my point of view there is a lot of truth in here I'll like to give my opinion. I'm a traditional MA, I am as traditional as it gets. First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all, however MAs were created not for the sole purpose of war but for the purpose of self growth in many different aspects, I speak more about it in here ( Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. ). Saying that I do see recurring problems in TMA schools which have been addressed in this forum, and with them many creative solutions. In my opinion it is all about commitment, think about it an honest days work last 8 hours so does a good day of school, so far kids learn stuff and companies keep running. I believe that 1 hour a day of something doesn't do the trick if your goal is to be very good at it, even worse many student's go two times a week.

I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding. 
Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
After school I had strength training, running a mile, doing footwork drills, and while a 6 year old should not lift weights there are ways around it, carrying my partners on my back, doing princess carries, lifting rocks, bodyweight, climbing trees, etc.
After lunch we get technical it is time for class we have 2 hours of drills starting from Ashi-sabaki, Tai-sabaki, Uchikomi, Randori, sparring, and practicing moves.
Then we stretch and stretch really good 15 minutes of stretching and isometrics.
Finally to the kids who work hard stay for an extra hour to learn the things the other kids don't for Judo it was Atemi, kin-no-waza (forbidden techniques), Kata, Goshinjutsu, the reviving method which I can't name, then you have controlled sparring involving said curriculum.
After Judo we all had to do something else like swimming, horseback riding, gymnastics, other MA, Soccer, you choose. As I said I was 6 at the time.
Also we needed to keep up the GPA other wise we get expelled, this training was a 6 day training, that was only for Judo I train many other TMAs luckily my masters get along so mi schedule is distributed so I get to do everything
Currently I'm 25 and while it is very similar the complexity of training is ever increasing, now it is 6 Km the morning and you can imagine the rest.

I have dedicated a good portion of my lifetime to MA several hours each day even on vacation I have to follow the routine my Masters give me, last summer my masters put me in the cage against a local MMA fighter, all I can say is I won with my TMA Aikido, Wing Chun, TKD, Tai Chi, you choose. It wasn't easy the guy was one hell of a fighter had I nod done all those years of rigorous training I would have lost rather miserably.

Back in the day MA used to train several hours a day thus they became renown warriors, now a day MMA fighters train several hours a day thus they are great fighters and that is what they want to be. Now if someone wants to be a great MA he has to put in the hours and do things that they don't like to do, just like I didn't like to train without a Gi when I was a child but I learned to fight with or without it thus in my MMA friendly match I was able to adapt. This isn't easy most people don't put in the hours to anything and don't like stepping out of their comfort zone it is a matter of will, and sadly money training is expensive.

Lastly I know that TMAs have not change they are as powerful as ever but while the MA remains the same the way we practice does change and it reflects badly on our beloved styles, I believe everyone here loves MA otherwise they wouldn't be talking here. As an example please check the following videos the first is of my TKD Sabonim Manuel Jurado Malacara TKD practitioner in the Olympics, representing Mexico, the second is of the 2017 World TKD Championship final. I'm sure you will notice the difference while both are TKD competitions I believe only one is TKD.

The first of my beloved Master:






The second of the World Final:






Have a great day.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 12, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> Interesting! From my point of view there is a lot of truth in here I'll like to give my opinion. I'm a traditional MA, I am as traditional as it gets. First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all, however MAs were created not for the sole purpose of war but for the purpose of self growth in many different aspects, I speak more about it in here ( Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. ). Saying that I do see recurring problems in TMA schools which have been addressed in this forum, and with them many creative solutions. In my opinion it is all about commitment, think about it an honest days work last 8 hours so does a good day of school, so far kids learn stuff and companies keep running. I believe that 1 hour a day of something doesn't do the trick if your goal is to be very good at it, even worse many student's go two times a week.
> 
> I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding.
> Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
> ...



a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:



alcm93 said:


> First of I believe that TMA whatever the style are all very powerful on their own they were used in actual wars after all



its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.


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## alcm93 (Jul 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:
> 
> 
> 
> its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.



Hello hoshin1600 I'm glad you pointed that out. I poorly phrased that sentence, sure MA were design with a combat aspect but not all were used in War. Some were used by only the nobles and knights, and some by the foot soldiers. Some were of civilian use. And some styles that we think today as MA are sort of complement, like a workout, QI Gong and several styles of Tai Chi do fall under this category. Those are not a stand alone art but an organized method to keep healthy, still very good for you over-all.


----------



## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> a good post overall however i do wonder about this following quote:
> 
> 
> 
> its pretty much a myth that todays martial arts were used in any kind of military fighting or war.




Your last sentence is so true ad well put as it is a myth that what is taught today or for a long long long time was ever used in actual battle. It is an evolution (bits added bits taken out ) if you will of the original.

On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol


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## alcm93 (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> Your last sentence is so true ad well put as it is a myth that what is taught today or for a long long long time was ever used in actual battle. It is an evolution (bits added bits taken out ) if you will of the original.
> 
> On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol



Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.



Thanks ......I think lol


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> On a lighter note if you were to be taught the original then you might well end up in jail fr a long time lol as some of what was taught isn't umm legal now lol


here is the problem with this statement;   depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal.  a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye.  the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context.  any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.



alcm93 said:


> MA were design with a combat aspect but not all were used in War. Some were used by only the nobles and knights, and some by the foot soldiers. Some were of civilian use.


im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport. 
there are plenty of martial arts that do have a link to military applications but they are not what people usually think and are often obscure.  
quickly off the top of my head ,military links:

Muay (Thai) boran
Krav maga
Filipino Pekiti -Kali
Indonesian Pencak- Silat
American MACP and MACMAP  (basically BJJ)
Japanese Koryu arts
Pankration was a Greek military PT activity but is now extinct.  
the hallmark of a military combative art is that it begins and ends with weapons and unarmed is only a side note to the core of the art.  this puts a large portion of Asian arts as civilian variants of competitive sport and self defense.


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## now disabled (Jul 12, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> here is the problem with this statement;   depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal.  a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye.  the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context.  any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.
> 
> 
> im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport.
> ...




sorry I was being tongue in cheek as regards legality my apologies


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 12, 2018)

now disabled said:


> sorry I was being tongue in cheek as regards legality my apologies


ok sorry i missed that


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 12, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> Hey you have a mouth-full of truth, most of the traditional usage is illegal, not only that but i'm sure sensei's insurance won't cover for relentless training.


What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?


----------



## _Simon_ (Jul 12, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?


I'd say the bare feet aspect... (bunch of hippies!)


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## JR 137 (Jul 13, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?


I’d say fraud is illegal.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> I’d say fraud is illegal.


You reckon that's part of traditional training?


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> You reckon that's part of traditional training?


There are some frauds out there teaching fraudulent stuff.  I’m not saying they’re the norm, but they’re out there.


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## dvcochran (Jul 14, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Other than live-blade sword arts and the like, what are these “traditional styles” that aren’t sparring?  I’ve heard about them, yet haven’t come across any.
> 
> We also need to define sparring a bit.  Dancing around and playing tag with oversized protective equipment is sparring, but does it really teach anything useful in actual combat?  I’m not bashing protective equipment, I’m bashing wearing stuff that falsely teaches the students they can take a punch, and the they’re throwing wouldn’t kill an ant.  And I’m bashing stopping and resetting sparring every time the slightest contact is made.
> 
> But not doing any sparring at all?  I’ve never seen it.


Very much agree with the stop and reset comment. Of course, if working an attack or counter you have to stop and correct/adjust. We do suit up most of the time when sparring and stress hard contact. At least a few times a month we will use headgear only. It is very sobering for some, especially lower belts to really get whacked. A very important experience everyone needs to have, multiple times IMHO. The sparring is very different when suited up. Harder and faster, maybe less control. I do loosely translate this to a SD situation. I tell them they need to know what their full out speed and power feels like against resistance. And what to do after a hard attack. That element of speed/power and the attached surprise (hopefully) is priceless in SD.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> There are some frauds out there teaching fraudulent stuff.  I’m not saying they’re the norm, but they’re out there.


Agreed. I don't think that's a characteristic of traditional training, though.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I don't think that's a characteristic of traditional training, though.


It’s a characteristic of EVERYTHING IMO.  Training and everything else.


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 14, 2018)

dvcochran said:


> Very much agree with the stop and reset comment. Of course, if working an attack or counter you have to stop and correct/adjust. We do suit up most of the time when sparring and stress hard contact. At least a few times a month we will use headgear only. It is very sobering for some, especially lower belts to really get whacked. A very important experience everyone needs to have, multiple times IMHO. The sparring is very different when suited up. Harder and faster, maybe less control. I do loosely translate this to a SD situation. I tell them they need to know what their full out speed and power feels like against resistance. And what to do after a hard attack. That element of speed/power and the attached surprise (hopefully) is priceless in SD.


My first stint in karate was when I was 18-25 years old.  It was a Kyokushin offshoot.  We were bare knuckle when I started out, and the only protective equipment was a cup and mouthpiece. You learned very quickly what worked and what didn’t.  You learned very quickly how to block, which strikes to take, and which ones to avoid like the plague.  Hopefully you did anyway 

Our organization’s head guys decided about 2 years into my stint to mandate protective gear - hands, feet, and head.  Honestly, it was a good move for us for the long term.  Too many people getting busted up, quitting, etc.  We weren’t supposed to go bare knuckle AT ALL after that, but my sensei kept it around behind closed doors for those who wanted to.  We had “Friday night fights,” which was by invitation only and he closed the blinds.  That was the way to go IMO - protective gear most of the time, but hard contact periodically to keep people sharp and things realistic.

There are a lot of lessons to be learned from that that quite frankly can’t be taught any other way.  Mike Tyson’s “everyone’s got a plan until they get punched in the face” quote held true.  We didn’t punch each other in the face (or head), but you know what I mean.  I’m not saying it’s for everybody, but if you’re serious about training, it can’t be ignored.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 14, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> I started training at the age of 2, while there isn't much you can teach a 2 year old I did became the "World Champ of breaking falls and rolling over" or so said my Judo Sensei. As I got older, age 6, and my pool of Masters grew training became more demanding.
> Beginning with jogging every morning at 5:00 AM before school 2 Km in total, luckily I'm a bit hyperactive so no problem.
> After school I had strength training, running a mile, doing footwork drills, and while a 6 year old should not lift weights there are ways around it, carrying my partners on my back, doing princess carries, lifting rocks, bodyweight, climbing trees, etc.
> After lunch we get technical it is time for class we have 2 hours of drills starting from Ashi-sabaki, Tai-sabaki, Uchikomi, Randori, sparring, and practicing moves.
> ...


Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?


----------



## now disabled (Jul 14, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?



I think like some lineages there is ummm embellishment going on lol


----------



## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> here is the problem with this statement;   depending on local laws anything and everything can be deemed illegal.  a common pen would be considered illegal if you stuck it in someones eye.  the "five finger exploding heart technique" can be perfectly legal,,,it all depends on the context.  any martial art move can be illegal or legal depending on context, not the technique itself.
> 
> 
> im still curious as to what styles you see as anything more then civilian self defense and sport.
> ...




True the hallmark of MA back in the day was weapons and these were learned by soldiers and nobles, they began training hand to hand as a basis to build their weapon skill on. Regardless of that civilians lived in a hostile environment so MA that required little to no equipment (meaning weapons) were devised, an example is Chinese boxing trained by Monks, Monks didn't go to war yet they learned to fight to protect themselves and their land, Karate is another example. This styles that require mainly one's body were more used by civilians as weapons were very expensive. In Spain, during the Arab occupation if I'm not mistaken, civilians learned to fight with whatever they had at hand. As for more sports oriented MA I'll say it is more of a current age trend, MA tournaments took place historically to hone warriors during times of piece.

Thanks for your reply.


----------



## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?



Hello gpseymour! Thanks for responding. What I would regard as illegal, training wise, are first and foremost the time spent. 

Now a days classes range from 90 min to 30 min each, back in the day it was a full day commitment, not that they trained MA all day but had a very well rounded education that took several hours every day, not to mention that time slots were very strict, this would keep many kids out of school and last time I checked that is penalized, also for adults their jobs are crucial so skipping on your job is a no go. Times have changed and that is good, but obtaining a high degree of skill requires a lot of time and now a days that time is predestined for other activities.

MA are high risk activities, training in the most traditional way possible comes with a higher chance of injury or worse, exerting your body comes with risks. There are many regulatory institutions that check for safe environments and have the power to punish your practice. in many MA generating micro fractures is part of the training if by some chance a practitioner with MF acquired in the Dojo injured himself doing something else he is likely to sue, thus restricting what is a sensei can teach without getting sued. Likewise there are are many drills for conditioning that elevate the level of risk and insurance companies will rocket your prime.

Thinking about it calling them Illegal is not accurate, maybe prompt to legal issues may be more spot on.

Waiting for your reply.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Where the heck were you training that this was a regimen for a 6 year old?



Hello Kempodisciple! Nice to meet you. Yes this was my training regime at 6 and I say the truth, it is not embellished. Back home in Mexico and during my trips, the Masters that I have had access to are the real deal, old school real deal. I started with the intent of surpassing the greatest MA and I still pursue that goal, so I signed up for that, my Masters not only are great practitioners themselves, most of them have Menkyo Kaiden, were Olympians or world contenders, former military, you choose. They also train the best! they have disciples who have gone to World Championships and have stood on the podium, trained Olympians, trained military special forces, and so on. That is what I signed up for thus that is what I get.

Also I'm very lucky as my family is rather filthy rich, so we put my Masters on the Payroll, bought land in different cities and out side of them and built training facilities for me, we pay great practitioners to come and spar with me, pay great Masters around the globe to come several months to my house to train me, I travel constantly to train around the globe, and as for partners my Masters chose several age appropriate partners and we gave them a sort of scholarship so I have someone to train with. This allows my masters not to worry about Insurance, managing a school of their own (Although many do), among other things. All of this allows my masters to let loose without restrictions thus engaging in more risky highly rewarding training.

I missed a lot of regular school to be able to train and travel and it wasn't an issue I'm smart so I was always caught up, we hired Uni Professors to push my education ahead thus school was more of a formality. Not to mention that Mexican law is loose regarding attendance and a few bucks will take them off you. It wasn't a problem, after all I have two degrees from North Eastern U in Boston for Mathematics and Physics.

What I mean is that I had to sacrifice many things towards my ends, I am working to be the greatest MA, a great researcher of Math and Physics, a renowned businessman, among other things. Because of that I never had a birthday party, never went to a sleep over, never have a girlfriend, never go partying, training and studying during vacations, skipped many christmases, etc. 

It sound like over kill but this is what I chose when I was only a kid and I don't regret it. I know it looks and sounds weird but it is the truth.

Waiting for your reply.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

now disabled said:


> I think like some lineages there is ummm embellishment going on lol


Hello, you can check my reply to Kempodisciple to get further insight. I did not embellish my response.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> What of traditional training do you suppose is illegal?


Please check my first post here Self introduction & several aspects of street fighting, and my opinion on MA in such scenarios. I go into detail on traditional training I believe this may help to clear any misunderstanding.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> Hello gpseymour! Thanks for responding. What I would regard as illegal, training wise, are first and foremost the time spent.
> 
> Now a days classes range from 90 min to 30 min each, back in the day it was a full day commitment, not that they trained MA all day but had a very well rounded education that took several hours every day, not to mention that time slots were very strict, this would keep many kids out of school and last time I checked that is penalized, also for adults their jobs are crucial so skipping on your job is a no go. Times have changed and that is good, but obtaining a high degree of skill requires a lot of time and now a days that time is predestined for other activities.
> 
> ...


I could teach all day every day, with full-contact sparring and high-risk techniques without breaking any laws or running afoul of any regulatory institutions (there really aren't any to regulate me, beyond my legal liability in court). It probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I can't think of where there'd be anything illegal in it.

If you meant that modern life - and the expectations of modern students - make parts of traditional training inadvisable or inaccessible, I'd agree with that.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 15, 2018)

i hope everyone realizes this thread had degraded into the world of unicorns and rainbow colored chi balls shooting out of the rear end. 
 so just in case anyone ever wanted to know,  i began my training when i was 8 years old and i used to spend a lot of time out in the woods. i met this bigfoot named Charlie and he taught me the warrior traditions of the bigfoot. he only did this because,  to his knowledge he was the last of his species.  most of the bigfoot species was wiped out during the Kjadoree war between the bigfoot and neanderthal.   anyways i am the only known keeper of the tradition.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I could teach all day every day, with full-contact sparring and high-risk techniques without breaking any laws or running afoul of any regulatory institutions (there really aren't any to regulate me, beyond my legal liability in court). It probably wouldn't be a good idea, but I can't think of where there'd be anything illegal in it.
> 
> If you meant that modern life - and the expectations of modern students - make parts of traditional training inadvisable or inaccessible, I'd agree with that.




Hey gpseymour! I'm starting to think that I'm not communicating my opinions correctly. You may be surprised but my favorite part of training is doing forms. While sparring of any kind and high risk techniques have their upsides, they are not the main focus of any MA, combat alone isn't the main focus, MA are about self growth our journey is towards that end, as I have established I'm a peaceful guy.

First of all just as you say modern life makes parts of traditional training inadvisable and inaccessible, on that we can agree. At the end of my last reply I corrected myself that calling the illegal is a stretch, but are prompt to causing legal issues. I believe that you teach at North Carolina, U.S.A. you know how strict law is in the U.S. and that law suits are more common than in other parts of the world. Stating that I'll like to give an example to clear any miscommunication I may have caused and properly land my argument:

I'll speak from experience. One of the drills that I do constantly is body conditioning, Iron bone, weight lifting, and isometrics for the tendons are a few examples. These drills consist on causing micro damage to the body and giving the body time to rest to recover from such injuries, after many years of conditioning your bones, muscles, and tendons become denser thus more resilient, they allow you to strike with more power, sustain power-full blows with less damage, increase your threshold of pain, etc. This conditioning while it doesn't increase your size does increase your mass, you look almost the same but are heavier, denser. 

There is a price to pay you are indeed damaging your body to give it a chance to recuperate and become stronger, if done properly there should not be any problems, but a tiny mistake can cripple a person, loss of mobility, dislocation of joints, tearing muscles, bone fracture, among other injuries do happen. I do said training because I want to and am aware of the risks, also I have my training grounds are registered as my private property, just a piece of land no need for an audit of any kind. Should these drills be practiced in a school registered as such and a student injures himself, regardless of the cause, their parents or themselves may look to sue the school, it will be worse if you work with children, every commercial activity in the world has a regulator in the government for sporting facilities I'm betting money there is one. Should injury occur this government institutions can penalize said school. 

Another one drill is standing on two poles and executing a number of movements it is great for balance and developing proper biomechanics. While doing this it is easy to slip and roll your ankle, you may also hit your head really hard. Many practitioners, and parents will not like that and will look forward that the school faces legal consequences.

These kind of training may not be illegal but as there is a risk of injury there is a risk of law suit. Thus I believe that many schools opt to take this part of the training as it may have legal consequences. Gpseymour you may be capable enough to hold riskier training in a safe manner, and still you choose not to do so. I believe that be can accept that "riskier" drills do work and help you improve a great deal, these are not for show. There are many drills like the ones I talked about, they work, but hold a higher risk. These drills will help practitioners develop a great deal but the risks involved may be more than what the teacher is willing to risk. At the end of the day it is a compromise.

Waiting for your reply.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 15, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> Hey gpseymour! I'm starting to think that I'm not communicating my opinions correctly. You may be surprised but my favorite part of training is doing forms. While sparring of any kind and high risk techniques have their upsides, they are not the main focus of any MA, combat alone isn't the main focus, MA are about self growth our journey is towards that end, as I have established I'm a peaceful guy.
> 
> First of all just as you say modern life makes parts of traditional training inadvisable and inaccessible, on that we can agree. At the end of my last reply I corrected myself that calling the illegal is a stretch, but are prompt to causing legal issues. I believe that you teach at North Carolina, U.S.A. you know how strict law is in the U.S. and that law suits are more common than in other parts of the world. Stating that I'll like to give an example to clear any miscommunication I may have caused and properly land my argument:
> 
> ...


In the US, there's not a regulatory body for MA schools. There might be one for fitness centers, but I'm not aware of it (and I've taught at a fitness center). There is no central regulatory body for sports - most are regulated by the organizing association of the sport, and there's not one for martial arts. Even teaching kids, there are no additional regulations - just the normal laws regarding child endangerment, etc. I know in countries like the UK there are specific regulations dealing with kids' programs and they include kids' MA programs - that's not the case in the US. The closest we'd come is if a MA school is part of a MA organization, that organization has some - very little - ability to regulate the school. Basically, even those groups can't usually do more than expel the school from the organization.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i hope everyone realizes this thread had degraded into the world of unicorns and rainbow colored chi balls shooting out of the rear end.
> so just in case anyone ever wanted to know,  i began my training when i was 8 years old and i used to spend a lot of time out in the woods. i met this bigfoot named Charlie and he taught me the warrior traditions of the bigfoot. he only did this because,  to his knowledge he was the last of his species.  most of the bigfoot species was wiped out during the Kjadoree war between the bigfoot and neanderthal.   anyways i am the only known keeper of the tradition.



Hello Hoshin1600. When did anyone here derailed the discussion in said manner? Everyone here speaks from experience, and most likely have never met face to face, thus claiming that someone's life experiences are false is insulting. In the forum I see nothing that can be called fantasy, the world is huge, there are as many experiences, life styles, and points of view as there are people. Rejecting someone's claims without having proof that such claims are false just shows how narrow is one's vision and at the same time it goes to show their limitations. We are here trying to built something, no need to wreck a building without seeing the results.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> In the US, there's not a regulatory body for MA schools. There might be one for fitness centers, but I'm not aware of it (and I've taught at a fitness center). There is no central regulatory body for sports - most are regulated by the organizing association of the sport, and there's not one for martial arts. Even teaching kids, there are no additional regulations - just the normal laws regarding child endangerment, etc. I know in countries like the UK there are specific regulations dealing with kids' programs and they include kids' MA programs - that's not the case in the US. The closest we'd come is if a MA school is part of a MA organization, that organization has some - very little - ability to regulate the school. Basically, even those groups can't usually do more than expel the school from the organization.



Hello Gpseymour! I did not know that but it is good to know, also I have to admit that I was wrong, there is no such training that could be call illegal. You really are a great Sensei, from your previous posts it looks that you take very good care of your students. This goes to show that I have a lot to learn, I'm only a disciple after all. I'll look forward to learning from you.


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## alcm93 (Jul 15, 2018)

My first post here was about how MA are not what they used to be, while I believe it to be true it did a poor job on answering the threats question. *The problem with "traditional" martial arts.
*
My answer is that there is no problem with TMA. MA were created many years ago and cover a number of aspects, their goal was to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives. I believe that the original goal holds true to this day.

MA in any shape or form be it MMA, TMA, HMA, or any other type of MA improve the life of the practitioners and make a positive change.  Whether you train to be a contender in the UFC or the Olympics, train for protection, train to stop being bullied, train for research, train to improve yourself, train for a good workout, train to defend your country, or train to seek for answers you are walking towards that goal. Regardless of style you are always looking forward to improve yourself, any approach you choose however crazy it sounds as long as you are serious it is OK.

Training 10 years in a monastery in China to find your truth is just as commendable as training TKD in Texas to contend in regionals. 

In conclusion training in any style you like with any goal in you might have in mind as long as it take s you to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives, to me you are one hell of a Martial Artist. So long as you are hones, earnest, and pure there is no problem with your Martial Arts.

Waiting for answers.


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## KPM (Jul 15, 2018)

alcm93 said:


> My first post here was about how MA are not what they used to be, while I believe it to be true it did a poor job on answering the threats question. *The problem with "traditional" martial arts.
> *
> My answer is that there is no problem with TMA. MA were created many years ago and cover a number of aspects, their goal was to improve the life of practitioners and make a positive change in peoples lives. I believe that the original goal holds true to this day.
> 
> .



I think you have a rather romantic and inaccurate view of the origins of "traditional" martial arts.   In China many of the TCMAs were developed to defend the local village.  Often TCMA practitioners became body guards for the rich, or bandits.  There was a period in chinese history when anyone that was a TCMA practitioner was looked down upon as a thug and from the lower classes of society.  So it wasn't always about turning everyone in an enlightened sage!  

I know less about traditional Japanese martial arts, but don't imagine that it was much different.  The old-school traditional Ryu were about training Samurai for combat.  Samurai often treated the commoners very brutally.  They weren't exactly enlightened sages either!


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