# Shinnenjutsu "Mind Control"



## Bigshadow (Sep 27, 2007)

Last Saturday I went to seminar where Rob Renner taught Shinnenjutsu.  I think it is quite interesting how one can control the attacker's mind.  One method was through proprioception.  There were some other methods that occur before contact is made that mislead or misguide the attacker, as well.  But I will leave that for now.

I wanted to open this up for discussion and see what does Shinnenjutsu mean to you and how would you apply it?


P.S.  For those that may not know, Rob Renner lives and trains in Japan with Hatsumi Soke and the Shihan.


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## newtothe dark (Sep 27, 2007)

My training has not gotten that far but my understanding of the goals of budo is to unbalance and disorient the opponent right from the start to put them at a disadvantge from the very first second.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 27, 2007)

Idunno, is there a type of Neuro-linguistic-programming type of thing this ties into? This is kinda sounding all space-voodoo to me....???


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## Bigshadow (Sep 28, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Idunno, is there a type of Neuro-linguistic-programming type of thing this ties into? This is kinda sounding all space-voodoo to me....???



No programming involved.    In fact it is quite physical.  Yes, there are other things that are deceptive, Some are messing with the perception of target distance, space (kukan) and shape of the attack.  However, it is quite physical.  The body will naturally do things when these sensory triggers are fired.  Understanding these triggers and reactions, and then manipulating them as part of your budo, will cause confusion for the attacker.

No space-voodoo, just martial science.

The cool thing is, it doesn't matter whether the attacker is big, small, strong, weak, male, or female, it works!  

However, relaxed good movement and timing is integral to being able to do these things consistently, IMO.


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## Andy Moynihan (Sep 28, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> No programming involved.  In fact it is quite physical. Yes, there are other things that are deceptive, Some are messing with the perception of target distance, space (kukan) and shape of the attack. However, it is quite physical. The body will naturally do things when these sensory triggers are fired. Understanding these triggers and reactions, and then manipulating them as part of your budo, will cause confusion for the attacker.
> 
> No space-voodoo, just martial science.
> 
> ...


 
So something on the lines of exploiting the autonomic reactions of one's central nervous system against them.(I.e. a blow to the neck on one side might cause them to post all their weight on the leg on the opposite, a flicker to the eyes will cause a flinch and sway-back, and advantage is taken of the weak points/slow reaction time in the posture thus created)?


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## Bigshadow (Oct 1, 2007)

Andy Moynihan said:


> So something on the lines of exploiting the autonomic reactions of one's central nervous system against them.(I.e. a blow to the neck on one side might cause them to post all their weight on the leg on the opposite



Sort of, but less brutal.  Understanding just how small of movements can be made.  Too much movement and they will have a reaction and too little, you won't affect them.  (I.E., A shove will cause them to lose their balance, but it also makes them react, whereas a smaller movement can take out that head, shoulder,hips, heels alignment but not far enough to cause them to react. Playing in this area is where I believe some of the magic is.  There is space or kukan between being balanced and falling where the body is not triggered to respond (by stepping).  Also, in this space, the attacker is not balanced (structure is malformed) and cannot deliver a strong attack without realigning the structure.



Andy Moynihan said:


> a flicker to the eyes will cause a flinch and sway-back, and advantage is taken of the weak points/slow reaction time in the posture thus created)?



I tend to think of it as taking advantage of weak points/loss of balance (physically and mentally by moments of confusion in the autonomic system).  

To complicate things further, the kukan that I described above, is different with each person.  Sometimes it is very small, other times it can be much larger.  It changes with body type.  This is one of the reasons there has to be relaxed movement.  If we are tense, we cannot tell where the resistance begins.  If you go through that resistance point the attacker will respond.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2007)

Bigshadow said:


> No programming involved.  In fact it is quite physical. Yes, there are other things that are deceptive, Some are messing with the perception of target distance, space (kukan) and shape of the attack. However, it is quite physical. The body will naturally do things when these sensory triggers are fired. Understanding these triggers and reactions, and then manipulating them as part of your budo, will cause confusion for the attacker.
> 
> No space-voodoo, just martial science.
> 
> ...


 
Hey Dave good thread and as always an interesting topic.  One thing I have enjoyed watching through the years is how Sensei changes the space slightly or uses a slight movement to befuddle his attackers.  Sometimes this causes them to just be unsure of their strike and it messes with their balance.  Very important cues in movement are given and received and if you can take advantage of them then you can be in a position of strength.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 4, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Hey Dave good thread and as always an interesting topic.  One thing I have enjoyed watching through the years is how Sensei changes the space slightly or uses a slight movement to befuddle his attackers.  Sometimes this causes them to just be unsure of their strike and it messes with their balance.  Very important cues in movement are given and received and if you can take advantage of them then you can be in a position of strength.




I like to watch where he puts his feet versus where he puts his hands to try and pick up what he is doing.  He moves in such small steps.  I think this is because his initial distance and timing is always appropriate. 


Speaking of initial distance and timing with regards to this thread, it is critical to have good initial distance while giving the attacker the feeling that one is just inside the range needed to make the attack, so that means being just on the edge of their range (as if one is a sheet of paper with life written on one side and death written on the other).  This is certainly a form of mind control.  As far as timing, I have been taught to move at the moment the attacker moves, not before because the attacker can change their attacker, not after because then I am late and have to move faster, but if I move when they move, I don't have to rush.  It is a pretty cool feeling when the timing is just right.


With this in mind, who is actually in control of the attack?  The attacker or the victim/defender?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2007)

Here is Rob Renner's website: http://www.zeropointbujinkan.com/index.html


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## Bigshadow (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks Brian, I forgot to post it, being this was initially brought on by his seminar.


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## Kreth (Oct 4, 2007)

I think physical techniques like this have a lot to do with the stories of the ninja having supernatural abilities. With good taijutsu, you can effectively "disappear" from your opponent's line of sight.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 4, 2007)

Kreth said:


> I think physical techniques like this have a lot to do with the stories of the ninja having supernatural abilities. With good taijutsu, you can effectively "disappear" from your opponent's line of sight.


 
You know Kreth I think you are right on here.


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## Bigshadow (Oct 4, 2007)

Kreth said:


> I think physical techniques like this have a lot to do with the stories of the ninja having supernatural abilities. With good taijutsu, you can effectively "disappear" from your opponent's line of sight.



I agree!  Not only line of sight, but from the sense of feeling (A feeling of not being there).  Against someone with good taijutsu, it is like fighting a ghost, nothing to hit, pull against, or even get resistance from, all the while getting crushed, twisted, and pounded into the ground. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




  It certainly gives a different meaning to 'invisibility' and in my opinion, a more appropriate meaning.

Imagine what it would be like getting one's *** kicked by a ghost!


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