# Article by Mr. Will Tracy



## Big Pat (Feb 18, 2004)

Master Ted Sumner has posted an interesting article by Mr. Will Tracy entitled "The Rise of American Kenpo-As I saw it" {revised 1/17/98}. Please go to www.sanjosekenpo.com under the heading of articles. Interesting to read a different perspective of things. 

EKP RIP

Big Pat :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 19, 2004)

First of all, i have to say this forum looks nice. I like it very much. Keep up the good work.

After I read Tracy's article, I'm totally lost and confused. I also don't know what American Kenpo is all about anymore.

Hopefully, somebody in AK express their opinions about this article.

I see some AK people express their opinion in kenponet site. Perhaps, seeing a few here


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 19, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> First of all, i have to say this forum looks nice. I like it very much. Keep up the good work.
> 
> After I read Tracy's article, I'm totally lost and confused. I also don't know what American Kenpo is all about anymore.
> 
> ...


What was it that confused you? The Tracy system has always claimed more techs than Ikka. Return motion is half your art, not reverse motion. Should I inform my instructor that in fact Ed parker quit teaching in 1980 so all that time he spent with him after that was for not?  
Ed Parker was into Master key motion and it is clear this guy prefers to have a thousand keys on his chain. He's a collector. In the End Mr, Parker didn't have time for collectors; because , he had a whole slew of people to impart the basic data. He wanted people whom challanged his beliefs, or could greatly expand upon his ideas. The techs are all variations of eachother for gods sake.
Sean


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## Rob Broad (Feb 19, 2004)

Wasn't Will Tracy, the Tracy who was head of the Church of Sex with is wife.  I read his article and tried hard to look at it objectively, but having studied Tracy's and EPAK, I think he is way off.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 19, 2004)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Wasn't Will Tracy, the Tracy who was head of the Church of Sex with is wife.  I read his article and tried hard to look at it objectively, but having studied Tracy's and EPAK, I think he is way off.



Right you are Mr. Broad!  I am in agreement with you.....  although there may be a shread or 2 of some truth.... most is garbage.   This article surfaced some time ago and now it seems to have peaked his head up once again..... things must not be going well for them......

:asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Right you are Mr. Broad!  I am in agreement with you.....  although there may be a shread or 2 of some truth.... most is garbage.   This article surfaced some time ago and now it seems to have peaked his head up once again..... things must not be going well for them......
> 
> :asian:



i thought this is the saddest in the history of american kenpo.

Tracy brothers were Ed Parker's students. Having publicly to say something like this to our death teacher is no good.

even though we disagree with our teacher or have different opinions with other people in organization, we should go ALL the WAY like this.

the past is past.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 20, 2004)

Don't believe everything you read on the internet!  Take everything with a grain of salt.  And question your assumptions about history.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 20, 2004)

A copy of Ed Parkers signed Black Belt cert is available at a few places...heres 1
http://www.canamma.com/kirk


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 20, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Don't believe everything you read on the internet!  Take everything with a grain of salt.  And question your assumptions about history.




this is certainly a good advise


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 20, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> Tracy brothers were Ed Parker's students. Having publicly to say something like this to our dead teacher is no good, even though we disagree with our teacher or have different opinions with other people in organizations.  The past is the past.



You are absolutely correct.  The Tracy Brothers do have Ed Parker to thank for what he gave them.  He did form the base of their Art.  

However, credit where credit is due..... Thanks to Tracy's aggressive business vision to establish Kenpo Karate studios all over the country and/or world ..... most of us are here today due to that expansion effort.   They play a very important part in American Kenpo's History.  

Now as to the quality of material that Ed Parker continually developed and organized up until his passing compared to what the Tracy's had when they left in the 60's is a completely different story.    The type of training in the late 50's, 60's, and most of the 70's was much "tougher or physically demanding" for the most part [depending on the instructor] compared to that of the 80's and beyond.   This is the era {the 80's} of the " technical knowledge explosion" where Ed Parker had "evolved" and was feverishly writing and recording (books, videos, movies etc.) much of what he had learned and wanted to publish this to the public as fast as possible.   

Physical training is still an intrigel part of the art just as the technical side, for it takes both to be truly proficient in the Art.  As humans however, we are creatures of habit and of comfort zones .... we tend to only do what we were taught and remember during particularly "OUR" era vs. examine the "big picture".   

All of us enjoy our ART of KENPO..... the interpretation sometimes is different depending upon our personal experiences, or the influence of our instructors experiences, comfort zones {which we do not like to leave}, era of training, which leads to our depth of understanding of the Art.  It has been my experience that the deeper we understand the ART and its history, the more clearly we understanding others view points and positions.

 :asian:


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## John Bishop (Feb 20, 2004)

I've seen that certificate on the internet before.  Doe's anyone know what the origin of it is?  In my kenpo research and talks with people like Mr. Parker, Sijo Emperado, and many Kenpo seniors, the name "International Self Defense Club" has never come up as a school name or association name for Prof. Chow's schools.  
Prof. Chow could not read or write, other then his signature.  And I have zerox copys of Prof. Chow's signature from certificates and books he gave people.  I guess people's signatures can change over the years, but the samples I have don't resemble the signature  on this certificate. 
I can verify that Sijo Emperado, being Prof. Chow's first black belt, did promote Mr. Parker to 8th degree in recognition of the outstanding contribution he made to the spread of Kenpo in the world.


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## KenpoDave (Feb 20, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> You are absolutely correct.  The Tracy Brothers do have Ed Parker to thank for what he gave them.  He did form the base of their Art.
> 
> However, credit where credit is due



And Al Tracy always speaks very respectfully about Ed Parker in the time that I have known him.

Here is what is being missed in this discussion.  The article in question was written by Will Tracy.  All the criticism about the article is being addressed to Al Tracy.  The Tracy Brothers that are on Ed Parker's tree, the Tracy Brothers that formed Tracy's Kenpo, are Al and Jim Tracy.

According to Will Tracy himself, he has never been a part of Al Tracy's organization, nor is he a supporter of his brother.  The following is a quote taken directly from another of Will Tracy's articles...

"I have tried to remain out of the controversy that has sprung up around my brother, Al Tracy. I have no association with him, and do not even talk to him. I certainly am not one of his supporters."  

To reference this article in it's entirety, please see www.kenpokarate.com/first_shodan.html

If the people of American Kenpo have a bone to pick about this article, I would suggest that it be picked with the man who wrote it.  Not the organization that he has never been a part of, or his brother with whom he does not associate or support.  

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 20, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Al Tracy always speaks very respectfully about Ed Parker in the time that I have known him.
> 
> Here is what is being missed in this discussion.  The article in question was written by Will Tracy.  All the criticism about the article is being addressed to Al Tracy.  The Tracy Brothers that are on Ed Parker's tree, the Tracy Brothers that formed Tracy's Kenpo, are Al and Jim Tracy.
> 
> ...



I have no bones to pick as you say..... I am or did not attack Mr. Tracy or the Tracy organization, rather stated fact, which IS complementary.  


but... if what you say is true.... then why is this article on AL TRACY'S SITE???????? .... the fact that it IS there only presents itself for controversy and is contrary to what you have stated.  If the Tracy brothers do not associate then why post a negative article by a family member that is supposedly distant or as he states "certainly am not one of his supporters".....?  Don't you think this is unusual?

 :asian:


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## Seig (Feb 20, 2004)

One of the many reasons I left my old instructor and did not go directly to Mr. Tracy was because of their tendency to rewrite history.  I have spent a lot of time on the Tracy site, everytime they republish their articles, they have Mr. Parker playing a smaller role in their history.  In some regards it's like the child crying foul, and then taking his ball and going somewhere else to play.  I find it very saddening.  Unfortunately, this is just one extreme of the behavior that has been going on within the Kenpo community.  On one hand you have people that either never studied with Mr. Parker or attended a seminar or two, claiming to be his long time personal student and on the other, you have those that were with him a long time disavowing their assosciation.  Despite Will Tracy's continuous blather, Mr. Parker gave his brothers something wonderfull and gave the EPAK family something wonderfull.  Wouldn't it be nice if everyone just treated it like the gifts we were given?


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## Kenpomachine (Feb 21, 2004)

I went to the site to read the article, but I couldn't go passed the first few paragraphs? I don't know Will Tracy's reasons to write in such a disrespectful way. Disgusting


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## KenpoDave (Feb 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> but... if what you say is true.... then why is this article on AL TRACY'S SITE???????? .... the fact that it IS there only presents itself for controversy and is contrary to what you have stated.  If the Tracy brothers do not associate then why post a negative article by a family member that is supposedly distant or as he states "certainly am not one of his supporters".....?  Don't you think this is unusual?
> 
> :asian:



*The article in question is NOT on Al Tracy's website.*  I just went thru it again before posting this, and it is not there.  It has been posted recently at Ted Sumner's website, but again...THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ON AL TRACY'S WEBSITE.

If I am wrong, please post the link or URL, as I have not found it.

 :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> but... if what you say is true.... then why is this article on AL TRACY'S SITE???????? .... the fact that it IS there only presents itself for controversy and is contrary to what you have stated.
> :asian:



you have a very good question. Perhaps, this article should be posted at www.willtracy.com/.net/.org.

Tracy kenpo students seem to *agree* with this article after talking to them.

I personally think that this article not only damages the reputation of AK but damages also the reputation of Ed's current students such as golden dragon 7, Doc, larry tatum, and so on.

after reading this article, IT is obviously that Mr Will understands Ed parker better than goldendragon 7, Doc, and other combined.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> * It has been posted recently at Ted Sumner's website, but again...THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ON AL TRACY'S WEBSITE.
> 
> :asian:*


*

you are correct. It is posted at Ted Summer's web site. Who is Ted summer??

"He is the one who taugh Tracy's son".

don't you see goldendragon 7 post anything so CONTROVERSARY like this one on his web site ?????

NO heh????*


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> *The article in question is NOT on Al Tracy's website.*  I just went thru it again before posting this, and it is not there.  It has been posted recently at Ted Sumner's website, but again...THIS ARTICLE IS NOT ON AL TRACY'S WEBSITE.
> 
> If I am wrong, please post the link or URL, as I have not found it.
> 
> :asian:



Ok, I have not been to the website in quite a while.... which is where I *do* remember seeing it there at one time.  If it has been removed, then my apologies for that "old" reference.   :asian: 

Obviously, Ted Sumner must have it now and put out a reproduction of the original posting on *HIS* website.    

BTW.. Quick Question then, Who has/does Mr. Sumner study with, and why would *HE* post this old letter?  

 :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 21, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> I personally think that this article not only damages the reputation of AK but damages also the reputation of Ed's current students such as golden dragon 7, Doc, larry tatum, and so on.



Ahahahaaahaahaaaaahaahaha.....  you too funny dude.....  :uhyeah: 

It would take much more than a letter of this sort to damage any of our [those that you mentioned] reputations!!   I find it ""unique"" that 14 years after Ed Parker has passed away that some people still try to discredit him, his system or his followers ......   I feel sorry for you if that is all you have to hang on to... the rest of us all have a great Art and we are all moving forward with it.   




			
				CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> After reading this article, IT is obviously that Mr Will understands Ed parker better than goldendragon 7, Doc, and other combined.



** giggle **   If you say so......:btg: 

  :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 21, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> don't you see goldendragon 7 post anything so CONTROVERSARY like this one on his web site ?????    NO heh????



Oh man, sorry but...  I absolutely refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!
 :lol:


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## KenpoDave (Feb 21, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> BTW.. Quick Question then, Who has/does Mr. Sumner study with, and why would *HE* post this old letter?
> 
> :asian:



For whatever reason, questions about this series have resurfaced on a few message boards, this being one of them.  Someone, I forget who, asked Dr. Sumner if he could post it on his website, and he did.

As to why would Dr. Sumner post this old letter, I shall let him speak for himself.  The following quote can be found at Ricardo Castillo's Bravenet forum...

"In the study of history, whether recent or ancient, the student runs the risk of having their cherished beliefs shattered, their ideas and opinions questioned and even their feelings hurt. I am interested in our Kenpo history, but I have never attempted to impose my considered opinions upon anyone, nor do I require my students to learn any history. 

I have posted many articles at many sites and will continue to post matters which I consider to be of interest and concern. Not to upset anyone nor to cause controversy, but for the consideration of all. If you do not like the article...move on. God forbid that you should spend one second of anxiety over something you do not believe. Or you may choose to challenge the article on the basis of fact. Lively debate can be higly stimulating. 

Cognitive interest and intellectual honesty are the foundation of any successful learning experience. That which can be proven must be accepted in it's appropiate context. That which cannot be proven is resigned to stand as the opinion of the author. Take it for what it is worth to you, but take no offense from me."

Take a look at the thread on Ricardo's forum.  Read the posts.  Al Tracy has denounced this article to at least one person other than myself.  To continue to make Will Tracy's article about Al Tracy is simply ignorant speculation.  Well, until the fallacy is pointed out and referenced.  Then it is simply lying. :asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 21, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Take a look at the thread on Ricardo's forum.  Read the posts.
> 
> Al Tracy has denounced this article to at least one person other than myself.
> :asian:



Yes, I just went there.... Danny and I talked and agreed (once again) and came to the same conclusion we had years ago...... 

Thanks for the post.

 :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Feb 22, 2004)

Interestingly, after bearding the lion (Mr. Sumner) on Ricardo's Tracy forum and confronting him about what I felt was thoughtless and irresponsible action ... AND ... receiving some rather inflated responses reqarding my cherished beliefs, etc, Ricardo decided that Tracy Seniors should not be rebuked in public.  He then did a modest chastisement to that effect and deleted the pertinent parts of the thread ... er... That would be the parts where I mentioned to Mr. Sumner that the Will Tracy threads had been denounced by Al Tracy, that to re-publish them was, in my opinion, poor judgement and that I thought that seniors/masters are supposed to be more caring than interested in floating people to come ot their websites.

Therefore... I will say this on Martial Talk.  That, as a Tracy practicioner, I feel compelled to say that I am embarrassed that this should rear its ugly head 4 or 5 years after the fact.  It was unsubstantiated at the time of publication and to this day, remains in that state.  I am embarrassed that someone who is a senior in my system appears to be more interested in the crass, National Enquirer mentality rather than setting good examples and doing a little ethical leading.  The various pronouncements of innocence and ignorance of the facts, in no way, staid the hand of the person who, apparently, decided to stir the crap, yet again.

However, I believe that, in the final result, I am more incensed at Ricardo's  handling of the issue which was achieving what Mr. Sumner said he wanted, lively debate.  Mr. Castillo and his forum has, for me at any rate, lost total credibility, and his forum now, generally, falls under the heading of just another forum.  It appears that pronouncements and opinions that are different from Ricardo's, even when not radical (and I can assure you that mine were not radical), are subject to deletion.  

I hope that this is simply a tempest in a teapot and not indicative of a resurgence of the "we hate each other" school of thought that has been around for so long.  Many of us have been working behind the scenes in various ways to try and get a continuous healing process going where, while we may never be one school of thought, at least we can respect one another, both in similarity and difference.

Sincerely,

Dan Farmer


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## RCastillo (Feb 22, 2004)

I appreciate the attention, though it's not quite what I wanted?


Let me clarify on some areas:

*The article as a whole was not posted on my site. Let me also say, I don't care about the history(Let others fight over it). We're all mortals, and all imperfect. All I care about is Kenpo, and teaching.

*I didn't rebuke any one person, it goes to all. It even says it before you enter to be nice.

*It someone were saying things about you Mr. Farmer, I would've done the same thing, stand up for you. 

*What's wrong with being nice to one another? I don't like infighting, I've seen it much of my life. I did not ban you!

*I'm not gonna tell a Senior what to do.(not publicy anyway) I wasn't brought up that way. One time you even rebuked me for how MY site looked, guess what, I stayed silent, and keep my thoughts to myself. (even though the site is mine)

* So now, me, and my little tiny forum have no standing in your eyes. As a living, contributing human being I still count, like me, or not. If Kaith can control his own forum, then so can I.

*Maybe the blame lies on the person who took that link, and placed it elsewhere, like on Kenponet?

*Since you're the only voice for Tracy's on MT now, I'll do my best to stay out of your path.


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## RCastillo (Feb 22, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> you have a very good question. Perhaps, this article should be posted at www.willtracy.com/.net/.org.
> 
> Tracy kenpo students seem to *agree* with this article after talking to them.
> 
> ...



"Tracy kenpo students seem to *agree* with this article after talking to them."

Not me. I don't care about history like that.  :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Feb 22, 2004)

Say what you will Ricard, if you are involved in an issue and are not part of the solution then you, by default, become part of the problem.  Silence, in the face of an issue like the one I attempted to confront falls under that definition.

Having said that, I do not dislike you ... I never, one time, said that I dislike you.  Simply, your handling of the matter in that manner simply lends an air of non-credibility to your effort in my eyes.  You say one way and act another.  That simply means that I will still buy you lunch if you ever show up in Missouri.  I will, however, not waste time posting on your forum.  Then again, I am only one opinion.  I'm sure there are many people who would disagree.

I would not expect you to defend me on your forum.  If I am incapable of defending myself, my posts or my actions that becomes my problem.

Had you banned me, it wouldn't matter.  It would have then looked like a matter of your schmoozing up to Mr. Sumner.

A requested critique is not a rebuke.  The one time I said anything critical of  your forum was to indicate to you that it might be nice to not wipe out the monthly collection of posts so that we could keep a running track of what folks have posted.  Sorry you considered that a rebuke.  Especially in light of the fact that  you asked, as I recall.  But I am aging and that could be a mis-perception on my part.

Placing the blame on someone who may have posted a link does not take the blame off of the person who re-posted the letter to his forum in, what appears to be, a "National Enquirer" mode.

Sorry I bothered you Ricardo, just thought some folks who had read the originals might want to know what had happened.


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## RCastillo (Feb 22, 2004)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Say what you will Ricard, if you are involved in an issue and are not part of the solution then you, by default, become part of the problem.  Silence, in the face of an issue like the one I attempted to confront falls under that definition.
> 
> Having said that, I do not dislike you ... I never, one time, said that I dislike you.  Simply, your handling of the matter in that manner simply lends an air of non-credibility to your effort in my eyes.  You say one way and act another.  That simply means that I will still buy you lunch if you ever show up in Missouri.  I will, however, not waste time posting on your forum.  Then again, I am only one opinion.  I'm sure there are many people who would disagree.
> 
> ...




Yes, there are two sides to this story as in all others. Then we are in agreement about one thing, we are then both "part of the solution, or part of the problem." It just depends on who you ask.

How can I be non credible, we come from the same organization, same teachers, and now I'm a non person? 

If what you told Master Sumner on the forum is humor between the both of you (which both of you understood beforehand) then I do apologize! But it sounded like a put down, to me.

No one said that you can't defend yourself, I do that with my friends. If you think differently however, that's up to you. I still respect you, your rank, and experience. If you reject, think badly of me, I've lost nothing, because everything I have I earned.

The request about the posts on my forum is not what I'm referring to. Even then, it's my little place. Just like MT belongs to Kaith.

Just remember, it's on Master Sumners site, not mine.

BTW, if the truth be known, and Michael Coreleon said it best, "Senator, we're both of the same hypocrisy."(Kenponet) :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ahahahaaahaahaaaaahaahaha.....  you too funny dude.....  :uhyeah:
> 
> It would take much more than a letter of this sort to damage any of our [those that you mentioned] reputations!!   I find it ""unique"" that 14 years after Ed Parker has passed away that some people still try to discredit him, his system or his followers ......   I feel sorry for you if that is all you have to hang on to... the rest of us all have a great Art and we are all moving forward with it.
> 
> ...



hey dragon7,

i hope *you* is not  coolkempodude because I am way cooler than this.

Amen???? :boing2:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Oh man, sorry but...  I absolutely refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent!
> :lol:



you are a gentleman


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> *Tracy* kenpo students seem to *agree* with this article after talking to them.



Ah HA !!!!!!!!!!  Then look what Ricardo said.......


			
				RCastillo said:
			
		

> *Not me!* I don't care about history like that.:supcool:



Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that *YOUR* poll  :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL  

Ahhhaaahahaahaahahaaaahahaaaahahaaaa:roflmao: 

Maybe you should go practice spitting into the wind somewhere else....
:wavey:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> hey dragon7...



That's ~ *"Golden"* Dragon7 to *you* .......  peasant!   :EG: 



			
				CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> i hope *you* is not coolkempodude because I am way cooler than this.  Amen????



NO, I am *NOT* some species of "coolkempodude" in any way shape or form.... yes I will give an AMEN to that !!!!!!!
 :asian: 

Talking to all who are reading this ....... hee hee  NOW we know why Tigers eat their young !!!!!!!  ** giggling uncontrollably ** :uhyeah:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> Many of us have been working behind the scenes in various ways to try and get a continuous healing process going where, while we may never be one school of thought, at least we can respect one another, both in similarity and difference.
> Sincerely, Dan Farmer



Thanks Dan, like many examples in life... friends and family don't always see "eye to eye" on all issues, but somehow when all is said and done, we maintain a "bond of brotherhood"!

:asian:


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## Rainman (Feb 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ah HA !!!!!!!!!!  Then look what Ricardo said.......
> 
> 
> Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that *YOUR* poll  :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL
> ...



And you say I am too harsh on people- sheeesh :roflmao:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 22, 2004)

Rainman said:
			
		

> And you say I am too harsh on people- sheeesh :roflmao:



LOL, now come on...... you don't really think that's Harsh ..... do you?   It would take a lot more to "earn" the torrid emitting of the GoldenDragon's Odius, Noxious, [not to mention] Deadly Gas towards someone!   :roflmao:

 :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Feb 22, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Yes, there are two sides to this story as in all others. Then we are in agreement about one thing, we are then both "part of the solution, or part of the problem." It just depends on who you ask.
> 
> How can I be non credible, we come from the same organization, same teachers, and now I'm a non person?
> 
> ...



My, My but you do trifle with the borders of inanity. 
artyon:  artyon:  artyon:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 22, 2004)

> NO, I am *NOT* some species of "coolkempodude" in any way shape or form.... yes I will give an AMEN to that !!!!!!!
> :asian:
> 
> Talking to all who are reading this ....... hee hee  NOW we know why Tigers eat their young !!!!!!!  ** giggling uncontrollably ** :uhyeah:



feel much better. :uhyeah:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 22, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ah HA !!!!!!!!!!  Then look what Ricardo said.......
> 
> 
> Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that *YOUR* poll  :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL
> ...



I can see  Ricardo has a *different view*because *He* hang around too much with GOLDENDRAGON7. 

I don't say hanging out with this golden dragon is the WORSE thing 

I hate to say this. It is simply the BEST thing for RICARDO.

Ricardo, do you hear that???? hehehehehhe :boing2: 

*gigling*


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## Seig (Feb 23, 2004)

If it does not pertain directly to the topic at hand, take it offline.
Seig
MT Admin Team


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## kenpo3631 (Feb 23, 2004)

After reading this article I can only say that the authors opinion is just that...opinion. He obviously did not thoroughly research his subject in a manner that would be considered one of a professional unbiased writer. See the example below...

_What Ed Parker failed to realize is, he was reinventing the wheel. All his ideas, all of his concepts and precepts had been advanced, argued and attempted from the beginning Eastern and Western thought. Critics have pointed this out, and argue that if those concepts and principles are superior to any other system, then the system would dominate the sports aspect of kenpo. *The fact that American kenpo has not produced one notable national champion caliber competitor in the 20 years of its existence raises serious doubts as to the effectiveness of American kenpo principles and training. * But the strongest criticism of American kenpo is that many of its concepts and principles are not only flawed, but absurd._

Lee Wedlake Jr., a student of Ed Parker's holds the honor  of being the first Parker Kenpo stylist to make the National Top Ten in men's black belt forms (Karate Illustrated Magazine, 1980 Yearbook). He controlled the top spot in Region Seven and won or placed in national and international events. He also held the number one ranking in the American Karate Association (AKA) standings for several consecutive years.

_After watching himself on 16 mm film, Ed Parker played the film backward instead of rewinding it. From this Parker claimed to have discovered that reverse motion is the other half of motion. New and innovative? No! Absurd? Yes! Zenos argued the same matter 2,400 years ago. Homer advanced the concept when he had Odysseus redouble his path between Skylla and Charybdis. The concept had been ridiculed by Aglenoce when she sought to put an end to the cacodoxy of Orpheus, and the Zen masters put an end to the argument by saying, "The arrow released will not return." The concept of reverse motion has been used by film- makers since silent films to undo events for the audience, and change them. It is the "principle" upon which "time travel" is predicated, and the concept has been used by Star Trek, Superman, and countless other fantastic characters. The principle is, however, scientifically, unsound, and its application is impossible. Yet reverse motion is one of the "scientific principles" upon which American kenpo is founded. And there is not one proponent of American kenpo who can scientifically define reverse motion, or demonstrate its application. But even more fundamentally, those who know the Way of kenpo, and those who are in the Void, know " reverse motion " is not in the Way._

Reverse motion is absurd it is argued by the author. Merriam-Websters classifies a Theory as:
Main Entry: the·o·ry 
Pronunciation: 'thE-&-rE, 'thi(-&)r-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ries
Etymology: Late Latin theoria, from Greek theOria, from theOrein
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances -- often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject <theory of equations>
synonym see HYPOTHESIS  
Does the Reverse Motion *THEORY*,  fit any of those defenitions.....ummmm, YES!

_Another American kenpo "scientific principles" which defies reason and application is "checking." In theory, "checking" allows the Kenpo student to anticipate the opponent's every possible use of every weapon and to prevent its use. In practical application, a 97 pound American kenpo master is not going to check (prevent) a 200 pound champion boxer, like Mike Tyson, from throwing a punch. He may anticipate the boxer's every move. *But think about it. Have you ever seen a boxer "check" his opponent? Don't you think that where millions of dollars are at stake in a single boxing match, someone would have discovered the American kenpo technique of Checking and used it to prevent his opponent from even throwing a powerful punch? * And again, "checking " is contrary to the Way of kenpo. It does not exist in the Void._

When fighters lock up in the middle of the ring or on the ropes, does that not constitute a "check"? If you read the definiton of a check in Mr. Parkers Infinite Insights, Vol. III, Ch. 3, pg. 5, para. 2, you will see that it does, especially in examples three and four; POSITION BLOCK (or CHECK) and PINNING BLOCK (or CHECK). The author (Tracy) clearly fails to realize that just because the pugilistic community never labeled it or gave it a term prior to Mr. Parker doesn't mean that they didn't know what it was or that they never applied the practice or principle.

I just cringe everytime someone bashes someone who cannot defend themself. Where was Will Tracy spouting this stuff when Mr. Parker was alive? All this article is, is a catylist to "stir the pot". It does not provide a complete or accurate portrayal of fact, nor does it promote anything positive. In MY opinion it is a jaded little man's cry for attention. :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 23, 2004)

I don't want to *ignite* anything here and don't want to see anybody get hurt or keep fighting.

This is not the first time we have seen this kind of article published by Tracy people.

I have a few questions here.

1- Why *AK high profile * people haven't wanted to have a friendly,openly,and peacefully *discussion* with Tracy people AFTER this article was published first so that we can avoid further damaging???

2- Is it not the time to put an end to this issue and move on ???

Your silent for many years has not improved anything. I feel bad for Ed Parker and AK people.

after your founder passed away, many things bad have happened. It looks like we continue to see these things for many years. The worst thing here is nobody wants to do anything.

When a person outside of AK look at AK community, he/she simply shakes their head because of what is going on in this community.

Good luck with your AK. God bless you.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 23, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> I don't want to *ignite* anything here and don't want to see anybody get hurt or keep fighting.
> 
> This is not the first time we have seen this kind of article published by Tracy people.
> 
> ...


Cool KD, Of all the people whom have ever left Mr. Parker and did there own thing, why do you think it is so important that the first ones to leave reconsile with current Parker Kenpoists? Current Kenpoists aren't exactly drinking buddies now, and where all supposed to get toguether with The T-Dragon people and sing "We are the World"? I studied a bit of Tracy's in Denver Colorado. They were nice guys, but the mind set is that they were lucky to not be Parker's Kenpo. I can't fault them for believing what they do is the correct way; because, if they didn't there wouldn't be a Tracy's Kenpo. I ask you. What would be our motivation? Making you feel more comfortable is not our concern. :asian: 
Sean


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 23, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Of all the people whom have ever left Mr. Parker and did there own thing, why do you think it is so important that the first ones to leave reconsile with current Parker Kenpoists?
> 
> but the mind set is that they were lucky to not be Parker's Kenpo.
> 
> ...



thank you for helping me understand better about another side of AK.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 23, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> thank you for helping me understand better about another side of AK.


Let me spell it out more clearly... Everyone thinks that they have the corner on the market. If we were to all get toguether and play nice, which methods should give? I'll give you a hint. This article will not be a factor in the decision.
Sean


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## WhiteTiger (Feb 24, 2004)

I was a blue belt when Mr. Parker passed.  I didn't know him, or even who he was in the world of kenpo at the time.  I did however, see how his death affected my instructor who was one of Mr. Parker's students in the mid 60's, but had migrated to the Tracy's in the mid 70's.  Years later after hearing his opinions and those of a few other seniors, on both sides of the descussion.  I have concluded, that it is greatly about respect and disrespect.  Those who were there in the very early years, '56-'69 many of whom were instrumental in developing the art into what we have today, were angered by the lack of respect shown them by those from the  '70's.  Some felt that the advent of AK was used as an excuse to discredit the one's who came before.  

Whether it is valid or not, in my opinion, it was wrong of Will Tracy to publish this letter publicly.  In the few conversations I have had with Al Tracy and other seniors they all agree on this.  There is no need for the Kenpo Masters to air their laundry in public.


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## RCastillo (Feb 24, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Ah HA !!!!!!!!!!  Then look what Ricardo said.......
> 
> 
> Neener ...... Neener ...... Neener ...... Guess that shows that *YOUR* poll  :rtfm:isn't worth the web its posted on....... LOL
> ...



Last time I checked, both of my parents have passed on, so that leaves me in charge of myself.  :asian:


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## RCastillo (Feb 24, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> If it does not pertain directly to the topic at hand, take it offline.
> Seig
> MT Admin Team



Even better, please move my postings on the subject immediately, that way Dan, and any one else can have free reign to cut me up. I don't really care, as they ALL missed the point.

Thank you! :asian:


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## Sigung86 (Feb 24, 2004)

RCastillo said:
			
		

> Even better, please move my postings on the subject immediately, that way Dan, and any one else can have free reign to cut me up. I don't really care, as they ALL missed the point.
> 
> Thank you! :asian:



Well Gee... That's cool Ricardo.  Put yourself in a position to cause strife and then when you get it ... Fold up and blow away.

I did not miss any point.  I simply saw three problems with the whole issue.  One is that this old crap stuff that had been denounced by Al Tracy has, once again, reared it's ugly head, needlessly.  

Two, a supposed leader, a senior as you called him, in Tracy's Kenpo posted it and let it stand.  And then he had the temerity to make it everyone elses problem if they had an issue with it.  He washed his hands of it, much like some other authors on other forums... I can print what I want, say what I want and intimate what I wish ... If you don't believe it then that becomes your issue.  If you disagree then that's your issue... I'm clear of it all.  Much like releasing a particularly foul flatulence in a closed room and making it everyone elses problem if they pass out.

Three, and finally, when you took out the supposed "offending" posts on that particular thread, you made sure that all the post to that thread which were supportive, staid.  That, in a nutshell, was lopsided, and lame.  You took the heat for it in a different post, but you still made a choice to handle it in a way that required no accountability on the part of the poster.  You cut out "offending" opinion, and walked away from it.  NO ACCOUNTABILITY.  And now ... true to previous actions ... You are doing it once again.

That's too bad.

Dan

ps:  Ricardo ... I didn't cut on you... I merely call 'em as I sees 'em... I don't understand how you could be offended in the least... I'm not responsible for my posts anymore than you or Mr. Sumner, neither is any one else.


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## 8253 (Feb 25, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> Don't believe everything you read on the internet!  Take everything with a grain of salt.  And question your assumptions about history.




The smartest thing ive heard today :uhyeah:


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## Seig (Feb 25, 2004)

After discussing this with Bob, we have decided not to remove Ricardo's posts.  We feel that would set a negative precedent.


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## Kalicombat (Feb 26, 2004)

Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
   Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping  the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.

If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.

I guess you'll "MOVE THIS TO A MORE APPROPRIATE ROOM", go for it. 

Sincerely,
Gary Catherman
KENPOIST


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## Rob Broad (Feb 26, 2004)

Gary

You have put into words what many have not been able to in the past.  You stated your arguement clearly and concisely.  I applaud your courage.

It is one thing to moderate against in appropriate language, attitude, and or post, it something else to moderate opinions.  I have nothing against Mr. Billings or Seig, but I do agree that in the past thing here on MT have been over moderated.   Having run a board that seemed to have have an anti moderation position, I have seen  both sides of the spectrum, and neither is good.  For a culture that prides itself on freedom of speech such as the American way of life there often seems to be a lack of coutesy to those who opine in a different manner or view.

Bod has created a good board here at MT, and while many of us have gone searching for greener pastures we have learned that they seldom exist.  There will only be a great sharing of knowledge when people can learn to accept and learn from others opinions.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 26, 2004)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
> Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping  the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.
> 
> If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.
> ...



i have to agree with what you said right here. There are absolutely NO common sense here.

For example:

 you said something in your post which doesn't contain any bad languages or call bad names.

I reply your post by "saying you insult" me. Your post is deleted immediately. wtf?????

and many more bad examples which I don't want to list here.

Your posts can be deleted because some *members*,NOT ALL members, don't like what you said. common. Where is common sense and good judgement???

In the past, you were allowed to do basic poll BUT not any more. You have to become *supporting member* which is not available to register

i have 2 great ideas and love to do polls. Oh yeah, they are good ideas. I have to wait to become *a supporting member* to do that.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2004)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
> Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.
> 
> If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.
> ...


Sir,
  I'm not certain exactly what brought this on, and I've been taking a more 'hands-off' approach to day-2-day moderation lately, focusing more on the technical side of things.

I do have to disagree with several points.

1- Post counts are down. - No, post counts are up.  What has decreased in the art-specific forums is the wandering tangents, chit-chat and 'fluff'.  We have specific areas for thost threads.  This isn't it.

2-"KindergardenCop" - No, they are not.  They are enforcing the guidelines and rules that -every registered member- of this forum agreed to follow when they signed up. Those rules cover such things as staying on topic, and staying civil.  This thread -IS- off topic, and it is their job to steer it.

3-"Moving it to another 'room'" - Off topic posts are regularly pruned (read split off and combined into a new thread).

4- Venting, Ranting, etc - I'm sorry, but this isn't the place for an all-out tirade, personal vendettas, etc. Heated Debate is fine.  Anarchy is not.

5- "Monitoring Posts" - To be honest, we've been -very- light on the moderation over the last few months.  Why? Because we're swamped on the technical and administrative side at the moment, and really have no time to read -every- post in here.

You are entitled to your opinions. 




			
				CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> i have to agree with what you said right here. There are absolutely NO common sense here.
> 
> For example:
> 
> ...


What post was deleted?  You say this is common.  In checking the moderator logs I see no deletions in this forum. (The EPAK is under a stricter charter as is indicated in that forum, but I see -2- deletions in there since Feb 1)

If posts -are- being deleted, then I need to know so I can find out.  Thats not our regular policy.



Now, it is my understanding that this thread is supposed to be about Mr. Will Tracy and an article he wrote.  Not about moderation problems, bbs systems, or the personality issues of any of us.  Please return to that subject and start a new thread in the appropriate forum for the other stuff. (Complaints about staff/moderation should be in the support forum, chitchat in the locker-room/UB&G/Study)

Good Evening.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 26, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> If posts -are- being deleted, then I need to know so I can find out.  Thats not our regular policy.



i don't know if other posts were deleted in the past. I certainly know that mine were deleted because somebody else said *bad* even though my posts didn't contain any bad languages or call name.

some my posts were deleted in "question" and "Knife Techniques In The Kenpo System".

I hope I answer your question. Now we can get back to "Mr. Tracy" thread.

by the way, this thread should NOT be here. Why???? it should go to "EPAK" area.

AK people asked for a specific thread for their style and they got what they asked for.

I am sure this thread should be there NOT here.

Tracy brothers were ED's students. Therefore, it should go where it belongs UNLESS somebody here don't acknowledge Tracys were Ed's students.

please move it if you *feel* OK


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> In the past, you were allowed to do basic poll BUT not any more. You have to become *supporting member* which is not available to register
> 
> i have 2 great ideas and love to do polls. Oh yeah, they are good ideas. I have to wait to become *a supporting member* to do that.


Yes, The ability to start a poll as well as upload attachments are restricted to the "Supporting Member"s. 

Why?

Because this site requires money to operate, and I simply can not afford to keep funding it out of pocket. I asked for donations and got less than 12. (I think the total was 5 people donated funds) I funnel the revenues from my webhosting business and the magazine to keep this site operating, rather than fill my own pocket. I'm eating a $400 extra to setup this new server, which is -required- solely due to the demands placed on the existing server by this website. This new forum software alone cost $160. Donations, ad-revenue, sponsorships etc, did not meet the day-to-day operating costs.

I'm sorry if some people are pissed because a few features have been restricted and I'm asking those who find value in this site to help keep it running and growing. MartialTalk is a growing archive of the arts, with posts reaching back to day 1. To my knowledge, no other forum near our post count can claim that.

When I setup the "Supporter" system, I comped -everyone- who gave so much as $1 a full year. 

So, I'm sorry if anyone is inconvenienced, but you can still use 90% of the board for free. The other 10% will remain a paid bonus for those who help pay the bills. 

For those who are interested in becoming a Supporting Member, please see the post in the Admin Announcements forum for full details. (The static webpage is outdated and I haven't had time to update it yet.)

I'm sorry, I don't mean to rant here, but it's been a long day, so apologies if I misinterpreted your tone.  I spent an hour on the phone today with someone screaming that I was "only out to rip everyone off, and make yourself rich on our poor backs", etc. etc.  Its a sore subject with me.


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## Rob Broad (Feb 26, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Yes, The ability to start a poll as well as upload attachments are restricted to the "Supporting Member"s.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...



Bob

I fully understand your daily headaches and to anyone who thinks it is easy running a board I say pull your head outof your *** and see what color the sky is, and a board of this magnitude is all that much harder to run.

Have some bubble tea, look at some Star Trek pics, and relax.  Things will look much better in the morning.


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 26, 2004)

Heh.  Thanks Rob.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 26, 2004)

Ya know guys, I probably like doing it less than ya'll do. None-the-less, this was the mandated way the EPAK forum was structured. You know, when we all voted on it and discussed it.

 Anyhow, play in the Kenpo General forum, get rowdy, remember, it has to be PG-13 or a very low, low "R" rating. I have no problem with the criticism, I know it feels more moderated than it really is. Deleting posts just does not happen often. I think I have locked 2 threads since I started last year, and hate not being able to express myself without the "shadow" of being a moderator. I am what I am, a Kenpo-Guy to the core, with 25 years at the art, of Chinese (Tracy) and Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Almost 20 years in EPAK now. 

 Moan and groan all you want, I do the same ... but your perceptions are not accurate or valid in terms of actual interventions or deleting. I make few comments that I was not making before I became a mod. If anything, being a mad mod has limited some of the remarks I would have made. I have been censured for saying too much in a "warning", i.e. making it too personal ... which I could do as a member. Personally, you don't like it, you have CANAM or KenpoNet, both serving useful functions depending on your mood and maturity level that day.

 I would say "get over it", but that is probably NOT politically correct ... and yes, this post may get deleted by an admin. I am responding personally to the 3 individuals who are griping about it. Hmmmm..... Guess not everyone jumped on the bandwagon, although I guess they still could.

 I try to be reasonable, prudent, mature and judicious in my interventions; and when I do so as a Mod, it is only after exhausting the other remedies as a member trying to get something back on track or cooled off (remember, I used to do that anyway). It would have to be something pretty awful, or really, really inappropriate for me to say "frog" and try to make anyone jump. 

 Don't think other's have not objected and moved on ... it is really ok if this is not the forum for you. I was tired of the endless trash talking, slamming, and petty bickering, that was why I stick primarily to this forum and I have not forgotten why. I visit the other forums, I have good friends on both other Kenpo Forums and I respect them and their efforts, but hey guys, THEIR BOARD'S AIN'T OUR BOARD. 
   :jediduel:
 Hope you find a amicable resolution to your problems with the Mod/Admin team. I am holding the line, trying to be consistant, and trying to enforce the rules at the minimum level ... with the exception of EPAK, which I try to enforce the less thread drift rule ONLY. When it gets too bad, I step in. I have plenty else to do with my time, and have to make a special effort to be here ... and it is because I like the comraderie, friendship, knowledge etc. most of the time. Some stuff gets as old to us, as it does to ya'll, what can I say? I try not to jump in on any Groundfighting thread the way I could as a member, oh well - "you can please most of the people, most of the time; but not everyone all of the time" AND "just because you are paranoid, does not mean someone is really not out to get you." Welcome to my world.
   :idunno:
   I am outta here for the night.
  :soapbox:

   -Michael


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 27, 2004)

Kalicombat said:
			
		

> Seig, Mr. Billings, et al moderators:
> Look at the numbers of posts before you started all this hardcore moderator crap on Martialtalk, and look at the numbers since. This is a forum, with all the players seperated by miles, computer screens, etc... People have a right to vent. You and Mr. Billings have ruined the Kenpo section of this forum by your Kindergarten Cop attitude. Let people Vent!! Look at how many new posts have started since you guys started monitoring everyones posts. They are down. I dont have the stats, but I know that this used to be a great forum. Lots of info, back and forth, and yes, at times, people said what they wanted, but it was busy, and it drew lots of kenpoists. NOT ANY LONGER. There is nothing wrong with keeping  the posts clean, but you can not regulate peoples emotions. LIKE IT OR NOT, this thing of ours is an emotional thing as well as physical and for some of us spiritual. I think that you moderators have carried your duties too far. How are you gonna reguate how people feel about somehting they have dedicated years towards learning, perfecting, and growing in? You CANT.
> 
> If it was your intent to ruin this kenpo forum, congrats, you have succeeded.
> ...



Gary, Mr. Broad ~ critics et al.....

Moderation on any forum is no easy task, if the premise is to keep the posts civil and positive in nature, particularly with an Art such as Kenpo that many of us are so Passionate {or as you stated} "Emotional and Physical" about.     Normal exchange of ideas or opinions is usually good, however, there have been several forums that have gone "off the deep end" [IMHO] and either have unending useless "urinary Olympiads" or get down right nasty towards each other, which the majority of followers do not enjoy.  

Being able to "Vent" as you say, can be a good thing, as long as it is within reason, remains respectful and positive, with solutions to the problem and not just additional fanning of the flames!!  In fact, you may have inspired me to ask the owner of the board for a special room just for that...... the Wailing, or Venting room!   Here you can go scream , jump up and down, pound you hands on the floor, become as animated as you wish and throw all the tantrums you want in the company of like minded,   then rejoin the forum after you have calmed down and "vented" a bit.  This methodology usually leads to much classier and more intelligent posting as well. 

Not always can one rate the quality of a forum on post counts alone, if there is endless garbage and banter, post counts can shoot thru the roof much like a wild out of control bar fight where everybody starts posting er... I mean punching  in just to join in all the action!   Remember opinions are like rear ends.... we all have 'em!  I ask you to "consider instead", the quality of posts and positive feedback and knowledge that can be gained which I believe is more important and enjoyable and should be the goal of most of us, that log on.   

The Trolls that do appear on ALL forums (less here  due to the enforced moderation) are difficult if not impossible to eliminate totally but we can restrict to some degree their usual traits such as ..... personal insults, attacks, belt measuring contests, and chaos which do not conform to the standard we are trying to achieve here on Martial Talk.  I believe that Mr. Billings, Mr. Seigel (notice I addressed both as Mr. not just one) and any of the other mods strive to keep this forum RESPECTFUL, positive and enjoyable.  They (and I for that matter) do realize that this may not conform to everyone's agenda's all the time, but we try.

I understand the personal frustration that some may have (while I respect their opinions, I diametrically disagree) concerning this forum, fact of the matter is that MARTIAL TALK continues to be one of the best platforms for all Kenpoists to come and share, read, debate, post, discuss and learn about Kenpo..... that I have seen "LIKE IT OR NOT". 

Gary and Rob, I really appreciate your viewpoints and opinions but on this one I respectfully disagree on all counts. :asian: 

 %-}


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> None-the-less, this was the mandated way the EPAK forum was structured. You know, when we all voted on it and discussed it.



How can we forget that *election*??? EPAK forum was created even though "NO" votes are MORE than "YES".

It was history and there is no point to discuss about it anymore. 



> I am what I am, a Kenpo-Guy to the core, with 25 years at the art, of Chinese (Tracy) and Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate. Almost 20 years in EPAK now.



 I don't want to start a *flaming war* here. BUT, what your 25 kenpo experiences has to do with *moderation* job ?????



> Moan and groan all you want, I do the same ...
> 
> Personally, you don't like it, you have CANAM or KenpoNet, both serving useful functions depending on your mood and maturity level that day.



It is really interesting when you said that.  If somebody else have different opinions or say something that you don't like to *hear*, you call them "moan and groan*.

i simply want to know what DO you call opinions whose you AGREE???? still "moan and groan" ?????

what makes this forum sucessfully is members who participate and contribute.

Some people here said it is costly to run this or that. Everybody knows that. It is part of running *risky* business. If you didn't *think* of that, there is no point to blame on OTHER.

Thank you for providing us a quality forum to discuss MA by the way.



> I try to be* REASONABLE, prudent, mature and judicious* in my interventions; and when I do so as a Mod, it is only after exhausting the other remedies



you threw in all the big words here. I'm shocked. Do you really thing that "Article by Mr Will Tracy" thread belongs in "kenpo/kempo-general" forum????

should it be moved to "EPAK" area????

I thought "kenpo/kempon-general" forum is for NONE-AK stuff.??????  if so, why Tracy thread belongs here??????

really confused???????

I'm waiting to hear your *reasonable* response from other why "ARticle by Mr Will Tracy" thread remains in "kenpo/kempo-general" for quite sometimes.

oh yeah, i'm tired of hearing *reasonable* this or that from other when they don't even act reasonably.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (Feb 27, 2004)

The moderators are doing just fine.

Look, I disagree with people on the MT forums all the time.  Almost every post I make in fact.  I have never ever been edited, warned, or banned for saying something people disagree about.  

The moderator interventions I see happening are when the discussions stray away from the thread subject and descend into personal attacks and insults.  

Some of the other forums don't do this enough and they have deliberate trolls insulting people and dragging threads into the gutter.


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## Sigung86 (Feb 27, 2004)

I assume the moderators are doing ok... No one has ever bounced me out the window.

At any rate, this thread has become a moot point.  Mr. Sumner has his "material" posted.  When taken to task by myself, my "offensive" posts were deleted.  All the involved parties are now gladhanding and high-fiving and backpatting elsewhere with Chinese Swings (A Tracy technique, obviously, and off-hand reference to their posts).

<sigh>

I wonder when we will or if we will ever learn....

Dan


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 27, 2004)

Sigh....

The EPAK forum was created because there were enough people who wanted it.
We see it as having been a sucess.

Mr. Billings martial arts experience as well as level headedness were two of the key reasons he is a mod here.

The kenpo/kempo general forum covers all arts within that generic term. EPAK/Tracy/Chinese, etc.

The articles here as it deals with kenpo.

and, again, I am left wondering just where the 'deleted' posts were.
- I see no record of -any- staff deleting them
- members can't delete posts.

There -may- be server or software hiccups that ate a few...there also may be user error (not hitting submit for example, only preview).  

Now, all this said, -I- will be pruning this thread of the off-topic posts and merging them into one in the Support forum later tonite if I have a few moments.  While your concerns are valid, they have nothing to do with either kenpo or the subject of this thread.

Thank you.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 27, 2004)

Thanks for your support gentlemen, I know I would hear it if you had a major problem as we have butted heads before.

  -Michael

 PS - and thanks to you Bob for cleaning this up.  The discussion can be continued elsewhere if merited. -MB


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## Sigung86 (Feb 27, 2004)

Kaith, and Michael,

It is my hope that you don't think I am on you.  I have no problem with anyone doing any moderating on this particular forum.  That <sigh> was simply one of exasperation about all the perrenial in-fighting and moronic action that seems to continuously rear it's ugly head.

If I was offensive somehow... My regrets at the misunderstanding and an apology are in order.

Some days it just doesn't pay to get out of bed.   :waah:  :waah:  :waah:


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 27, 2004)

Nah, no worries.  I didn't see it as offensive.

My sigh was in agreement.


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## Michael Billings (Feb 27, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Nah, no worries.  I didn't see it as offensive.
> 
> My sigh was in agreement.


 Ditto, me either.  I saw it as supportive, in a backhanded kinda way.  

 Thanks,
 -Michael


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> The kenpo/kempo general forum covers all arts within that generic term. EPAK/Tracy/Chinese, etc.



thank you for clarifying that. I thought NONE - AK stuffs is here and AK stuffs is over EPAK.

It is certainly not.

Oh boy, AK people are very lucky. They can go back and forth whenever they want.

they have their own forum (EPAK) and want this kenpo/kempo general forum NOW.

God bless them.



> The articles here as it deals with kenpo.



this article deals with *American Kenpo* ( to be EXACTLY ) NOT other arts.

people still fail seeing my point. I'm not really suprised to see that.


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 27, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> this article deals with *American Kenpo* ( to be EXACTLY ) NOT other arts.
> 
> people still fail seeing my point. I'm not really suprised to see that.


This article disses AK.
Sean


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> This article disses AK.
> Sean



look like it.

Tracy people are very interesting people. In the past, they had video tape which p*ss AK people off

and they have a nice article NOW.

Not sure what Tracy will deliver to AK in the future?????


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

Touch'O'Death,

you asked me which method we should use to be friendly again. I don't know how to answer your question.

Perhaps, you or other can offer your perspective from an AK point of view here.

do you think Tracy and AK people *can* be friend again in the future?????


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 27, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> Touch'O'Death,  do you think Tracy and AK people *can* be friend again in the future?????



I'll break in and answer that one........  Hell..... I have plenty of Tracy friends old and new:uhyeah: ...... we have been friends, are friends and will be friends in the future....!!!!!!!!!!!!!    

Now I know I can only speak for myself.... but there are also some in *Both* camps....... that probably will not be dining with me :jedi1: .... ever.   Just the realities of life.    Always been that way, always will be.

So lets move on to some string that is *productive* instead of  :deadhorse !!!!!!

 :asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 27, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Now I know I can only speak for myself.... but there are also some in *Both* camps....... that probably will not be dining with me :jedi1: .... ever.



goldendragon 7 and other,

if you all want to know a REAL reason why these people don't dine with goldendragon 7, please head to  * "Tales of The "Goldendragon!""* thread in *kenpo/kemp-general forum*

good answer is waiting


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## KenpoDave (Feb 27, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> Touch'O'Death,
> 
> you asked me which method we should use to be friendly again. I don't know how to answer your question.
> 
> ...



When you say "Tracy and AK people" are you meaning Will Tracy, or Tracy people in general?  If it is the former, :idunno:I have no idea.  The article has been around for about 8 years now.  If you mean the latter, then  :shrug: it seems you are choosing to create controversy out of this.  The author of the article has nothing to do with the Tracy system, and does not speak for Tracy people.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 27, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> When you say "Tracy and AK people" are you meaning Will Tracy, or Tracy people in general?  If it is the former, :idunno:I have no idea.  The article has been around for about 8 years now.  If you mean the latter, then  :shrug: it seems you are choosing to create controversy out of this.  The author of the article has nothing to do with the Tracy system, and does not speak for Tracy people.



Dave,  CKD.. seems to be just another troll to me.   Spending time with him is really a waste other than for entertainment.   Personally, I don't think he would know a Tracy Student from an Armadillo ~ even if the Tracy student wore the  Legendary Checkered Uniform Top!   LOLLlololooolooololololoololololllll
 :asian:


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## KenpoDave (Feb 27, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Dave,  CKD.. seems to be just another troll to me.   Spending time with him is really a waste other than for entertainment.   Personally, I don't think he would know a Tracy Student from an Armadillo ~ even if the Tracy student wore the  *Legendary Checkered Uniform Top*!   LOLLlololooolooololololoololololllll
> :asian:



The pants are way cool, too! artyon:


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## Sigung86 (Feb 28, 2004)

The pants create a complete optical illusion, one that enhances your opponents proclivities toward dizziness, nausea and vomiting!
 %-}  :boing2:  %-}


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## Seig (Feb 28, 2004)

I actually feel a very good lesson can be learned from Mr. Tracy's letter as well as the discussion, both heated and analytical, about it.  We all know that people believe what they want, not necessarily what is.  This thread as so many others allow me, as a teacher to both be taught and to pass more on to my students.  The arts we study, regardless of what they are, can all be boiled down to choices.  Our choices are what make us who we are.  Our choice of friends, enemies, clothing, even our arts and instructors.  Mr. Tracy chose to write this article, heedless of the consequences.  It appears he _chose_ to try and sow discord.  Apparently, it has worked.  He _chose_ to work on people's emotions instead of applying logic.  We _chose_ to react emotionally, for the most part.  Had we _chosen_ to read and react with logic, would this discussion be heated?  Would it have gone beyond a page?
Just something to think about.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> The pants are way cool, too!



You know what.......  I don't think I have ever seen the "Pants"!!!!    

Would someone please post of pic would you!  That would be cool!

D

 %-}


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

Seig said:
			
		

> I actually feel a very good lesson can be learned from this letter, which has prompted discussion, both heated and analytical, which in turn has allowed me, to both expand my knowledge and awareness, and to pass this on to my students.
> Just something to think about.



You make progress, weedhopper!  Great observation!

:asian:


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 28, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> When you say "Tracy and AK people" are you meaning Will Tracy, or Tracy people in general?  If it is the former, :idunno:I have no idea.  The article has been around for about 8 years now.  If you mean the latter, then  :shrug: it seems you are choosing to create controversy out of this.  The author of the article has nothing to do with the Tracy system, and does not speak for Tracy people.



I don't want to point the finger at anybody here. Oh yeah, i don't want to create any more controversy. To answer your question, Let just say "Tracy general".

If everything is fine in AK community, it's good to hear that. Keep up the good work.

thank you for clarifying about the author of the article. I'm out of this discussion for good.

it's too hot for me to handle

Peace, bro.


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## CoolKempoDude (Feb 28, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Personally, I don't think he would know a Tracy Student from an Armadillo ~ even if the Tracy student wore the  Legendary Checkered Uniform Top!   LOLLlololooolooololololoololololllll
> :asian:



goldendragon 7,

I had a chance to meet and talk to a personal student of GM Tracy. We and other had a friendly discussed about American Kenpo and martial art in general. Of course, i don't want to name any NAME here.

But I can tell you *1 of other things * about AK and that is * After GM Ed Parker passed away, some senior members in AK claimed to be the successor of AK UNTIL Mrs Parker ( wife of GM Parker) said  that  Ed Parker did not have a successor of AK. That is the end of it. *

some of you know about this and some of you don't know. I simply don't want to create a *flaming war* among people by POSTING any *controversy* stuffs and that is the REASON why I don't want to say much about AK.

  The problem here obviously is within AK community NOT other.
Goldendragon7, you know what you know and I know what I know. Let keep it that way. There is no need to discuss about what we know.

I am out of here for good. 

Peace .
* Mode or webmaster of this forum: please CLOSE my account. Thank you*


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> Oh yeah, and I don't want to create any more *controvers*y.    I'm out of this discussion for good.  it's too hot:angry: for me to handle!



*NO WAY!* *If you think I'm fallin' for that line....* you are coocoo! :anic:  :erg:  :ultracool


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 28, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> *Mode or webmaster of this forum: please CLOSE my account. Thank you*


Account closed at request of member.


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

CoolKempoDude said:
			
		

> Mode or webmaster of this forum: please CLOSE my account. Thank you[/b]





			
				Originally Posted by Kaith Rustaz said:
			
		

> Account closed at request of member.



*HOLY COW!!!!..... he WAS serious!*

 :supcool:


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 28, 2004)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> *HOLY COW!!!!..... he WAS serious!*
> 
> :supcool:


Perhaps your new screen name could be Billy Goat Gruff #3 (just kidding).
Sean


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 28, 2004)

Touch'O'Death said:
			
		

> Perhaps your new screen name could be Billy Goat Gruff #3 (just kidding).
> Sean



 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:


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## KenpoDave (Feb 28, 2004)

Sigung86 said:
			
		

> The pants create a complete optical illusion, one that enhances your opponents proclivities toward dizziness, nausea and vomiting!
> %-}  :boing2:  %-}



They certainly make it hard to focus after I kick someone in the head.  I thought the vertigo was my blinding speed, apparently, it's the blinding pants.

Mr. C, I have a photo of a seminar with Dr. Roger Greene wearing the pants.  He is kneeling on the far left next to Al Tracy.  I'm the great looking guy next to Ricardo! artyon:


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## Goldendragon7 (Feb 29, 2004)

KenpoDave said:
			
		

> Mr. C, I have a photo of a seminar with Dr. Roger Greene wearing the pants.  He is kneeling on the far left next to Al Tracy.  I'm the great looking guy next to Ricardo!



Thanks Dave.... man those are wild!!!!!

 :boing1:


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## BFoley (Mar 9, 2004)

Big Pat said:
			
		

> Master Ted Sumner has posted an interesting article by Mr. Will Tracy entitled "The Rise of American Kenpo-As I saw it" {revised 1/17/98}. Please go to www.sanjosekenpo.com under the heading of articles. Interesting to read a different perspective of things.
> 
> EKP RIP
> 
> Big Pat :asian:




Big Pat;

    I think there were several parts to this article. Do you know where I can view the other parts ? Thanks.

Brian


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