# Dropping the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung



## Makalakumu

I am officially dropping the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung.  These forms were part of the federation that I originally starting my training in, but now they have begun to change so much that the forms I learned no longer resemble what I see.  There are too many forms anyway and the disconnect from these forms and my lineage has just grown to vast.  Has anyone else had to make this decision?  How did you feel about it?


----------



## rick_tsdmdk

To me, the Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and Hwa Sun Hyung are just bad Tai Chi mixed with bad karate moves.  I do not find the forms stimulating or particularly difficult.  They are no different than the various sets used in TKD - a bad attempt to replace the classical forms that were born out of actual combat.  What use are forms made up of random, purposeless, techniques?


----------



## MBuzzy

I definately feel that they can have a use if taught and analyzed properly.  The Chil Sungs really don't get too difficult or interested until Sam Lo and the Yuk Ros until Sa Dan.  A great deal of the movements in some the Chil Sung hyung are taken directly from the Pyang Ahn forms.  

They are probably much more useful if you do not do the pyang ahn forms.  

As for making the decision to drop them....I have no decision.  Although, I am glad that I have had the opportunity to learn them.  While I do agree that we don't go deep enough into forms and don't spend enough time on them, I personally will always learning new ones.


----------



## Makalakumu

I'll never be able to learn the whole sets and they will take to much of my time from analyzing the content in the classical forms.  With the way that I want to practice, they just don't fit.

The good thing is that I have video of myself doing them.  If nothing else, that will at least keep me with a certain level of knowledge of them.


----------



## exile

upnorthkyosa said:


> I'll never be able to learn the whole sets and they will take to much of my time from analyzing the content in the classical forms.  With the way that I want to practice, they just don't fit.
> 
> The good thing is that I have video of myself doing them.  If nothing else, that will at least keep me with a certain level of knowledge of them.



UpNwhen you guys refer to 'the classical forms', exactly which ones are you referring to?


----------



## Makalakumu

exile said:


> UpNwhen you guys refer to 'the classical forms', exactly which ones are you referring to?


 
Original Japanese kata.  Taikyoku, Heien, Bassai dai and sho, Naihanchi, etc...


----------



## exile

upnorthkyosa said:


> Original Japanese kata.  Taikyoku, Heien, Bassai dai and sho, Naihanchi, etc...



OK, those guys... I suspected so but I didn't know if there was some particular subset of the katas that had that status. In my lineage, we do the Taikyoku as the kichos, the Pinans as... well, themselves, Empi as Eunbi, and Rohai as a rather strange variant developed somewhere along the line, probably by Joon Pye Choi. There are a could of other classic katas that we do, but it's a fairly small set. The Palgwe hyungs though are made up mostly of rearranged bits of the Pinans, so they count as... I don't know, mutation of the classical forms, I guess...


----------



## MBuzzy

Well, UpN, definately difficult to argue with the decision.  I know that the federation has made it difficult to keep up with those forms if you're not a member, which is rather unfortunate.  But then, that is only if you see value in the forms themselves.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

The ITF dropped them years before I started training, for much the same reasons expressed.


----------



## rick_tsdmdk

JT_the_Ninja said:


> The ITF dropped them years before I started training, for much the same reasons expressed.


 
Dropped which forms?


----------



## Makalakumu

I was looking at the way that I learned the forms and looking at how they are being practiced on the net and realized that these forms are vibrant and active within the federation.  They are living creatures and the version I learned was a thing of the times.  Hell, they are the chil sungs of ten years ago.  

Also, they are redundant.  So much of it is mix and matched from other hyung in the curriculum that it just doesn't make sense to keep practicing them in my dojang.

I've always said that the Chil Sung and Yuk Ros would be great as a martial art all by themselves.  Combined with the classical hyungs, its just too much, IMHO.


----------



## MBuzzy

upnorthkyosa said:


> I've always said that the Chil Sung and Yuk Ros would be great as a martial art all by themselves. Combined with the classical hyungs, its just too much, IMHO.


 
Especially with the higher ones being 70 movements or more.

Which is why the federation keeps talking about eliminating the classical forms.


----------



## Makalakumu

I was convinced that I had to do this eventually when I tried to show you the version of yuk ro cho dan that I learned.  I learned the version 9 years ago and I worked to keep it up, but when you showed me yours, I knew that the federation had changed it.  

As much as I hate to stop practicing forms, I think with the move and all, the time is right.  

I hope SBD eventually embraces the new art they have created.  The way that basics are practiced and the whole philosophy and ethos are represented in those forms.  They don't need the classical hyung, IMHO.


----------



## MBuzzy

upnorthkyosa said:


> I was convinced that I had to do this eventually when I tried to show you the version of yuk ro cho dan that I learned. I learned the version 9 years ago and I worked to keep it up, but when you showed me yours, I knew that the federation had changed it.
> 
> As much as I hate to stop practicing forms, I think with the move and all, the time is right.
> 
> I hope SBD eventually embraces the new art they have created. The way that basics are practiced and the whole philosophy and ethos are represented in those forms. They don't need the classical hyung, IMHO.


 
Though I would hate to see the Pyang ahns and higher forms go - I agree with you.  They have already moved towards chaing the basics.  There is a whole new set of basic techniques, focused on the art form present in the Chil Sung and Yuk Ros.  They are all effective techniques, but you can tell 100% that they are from a completely different mind set than the standard kicks and punches....they're more like Korean kung fu.


----------



## MasterPistella

The ITF dropped the Chil Sung forms in the late 80's. GM Kim only learned the first 3 & saw no reason to teach part of a set. He never learned the Yuk Ro forms. So they were never passed on to us.
Master P


----------



## tsdmgk1336

In Pyung Moo Do we are actually keeping both sets as well as all the tradidtional Hyungs. We are working very closely with Tai Chi instructors and Oknawna instructors on the applacations (Bunkai ) to these hyungs.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil

John,
This is an old conversation for many of us...

Too many organization, in their quest to build a better curriculum, simply go out and learn a new hyung/kata and introduce it into their curriculum.

They don't have a deep understanding of the hyung/kata that they are already training in but they are interested in filling their minds with still more memorization of techniques that they don't truly understand...

I was in the Federation in the early to late 1980's. I learned the first four Chil Sung Hyung, but not the last three or any of the Yuk Ro hyung.

When I learned Chil Sung Il Lo hyung I learned it with a heavy Tai Chi flavor. When I trained with KJN Andy Ah Po in September, 2005 at a seminar that we taught in Arizona for KJN Darryl Khalid, he taught the hyung as if to be a Tang Soo Do hyu doing a Chinese hyung. The flavor was considerably different from when I first learned it in 1983.

The hyung (all of them) have gone through changes over the years, but the most upsetting thing about them is that when they were taught by the Federation, like all hyung taught by the Federation, they were taught either without any Bunkai or with Bunkai that was useless.

When I meet with others and we train on hyung/kata, as you know, the hyung start to come to life because the Bunkai is real and works...

If you had been taught the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro Hyung with proper Bunkai you would maintain them. No hyung/kat is worth learning or training with if you are not taught them with the correct flavor and without real Bunkai...

I had the pleasure of having JB Yager participate in a seminar that I taught last week at "Red Lion Karate" in Red Lion, PA. You met Gene and Amy Lau (the dojang owners)as well as JB Yager at my seminar back in February. At last weeks seminar JB Yager asked me to demonstrate Chil Sung Il Lo hyung. When I finished JB exclaimed; Now that is how I always invisioned that Chil Sung should look!!!

As you know, JB Yager is a practitioner of "Iron Wheel Fist". This system is Korean, but is not a "Karate-Based" system. It is more of a "Shaolin-Based" system. Having a good understanding of Tai Chi and other Chinese systems, JB exclaimed that; everyone that he has seen perform these Soo Bahk Do hyung has performed them as "Karate guys trying to do Chunese technique". It simply doesn't work (for me).

If you are going to learn a form, take the learning deep. Establish an understanding of the principles and concepts within the techniques. Don't just memorize the order of the techniques and determine that you now know the form.

Craig,
Learning a hyung simply to say... I know that hyung!!! is a waste of good training time. Don't get caught up in volume. It's the wrong way to train...


----------



## MBuzzy

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> Craig,
> Learning a hyung simply to say... I know that hyung!!! is a waste of good training time. Don't get caught up in volume. It's the wrong way to train...


 
Agreed, sir.  Although, I do tend to enjoy trying to find bunkai for hyung that I've learned.  It is a shame that we can't get deeper into hyung, but I really see a lot of that as a symptom of the "testing" system.  We learn a hyung....only have a few months with it, test, then move on to another.  Where in most cases, you can spend a year on a single hyung and still not learn the full depth of it.  I'm hoping that by learning these, I will continue to train with people like yourself as well as some that I have met in the federation who get deeper into applications; and be able to unlock what some of these movements can become.


----------



## Makalakumu

For me, its a matter of training time and focus.  I currently practice 15 empty hand hyung.  That was an entire system of karate as envisioned by the grandmaster's who created our systems of karate.  I want to add some of the classical hyung like kusanku or gojushiho because I feel that these hyung can teach a lot about where some of the earlier hyung came from.  

The chil sungs seemed redundant.


----------



## MBuzzy

maunakumu said:


> The chil sungs seemed redundant.


 
I have definately and frequently had the thought that some of the Chil Sung Hyung seem like textbooks for the Pyang Ahns....but when you get to the higher forms, there are some movements that I am VERY interested to know the applications for....


----------



## miguksaram

rick_tsdmdk said:


> To me, the Chil Sung, Yuk Ro, and Hwa Sun Hyung are just bad Tai Chi mixed with bad karate moves. I do not find the forms stimulating or particularly difficult. They are no different than the various sets used in TKD - a bad attempt to replace the classical forms that were born out of actual combat. What use are forms made up of random, purposeless, techniques?


 
Which forms were born out of actual combat?


----------



## MBuzzy

I fear that a discussion of the history and lineage of most forms is probably a discussion for another thread....as it deals a great deal with widely debated history.

But I think that we can all agree with no problems that that Chil Sungs and Yuk Ros WERE NOT created directly from combat, since they were created by Hwang Kee in the 40s or 50s.  Now, they may be based on movements from other forms or based on fighting techniques that were proven to work....


----------



## astrobiologist

I was present when Master Jay S. Penfil showed Master J.B. Yager some of his bunkai for Chil Sung Il Lo.  I've always wondered what some of the movements may possibly mean when truly analyzed.

If you are seeking for less forms, but more knowledge of those forms you keep, then I don't see a problem with that.

I personally don't want to remove any of the forms I am currently training with, but I do want to get a deeper understanding of each and every form and technique I use.


----------



## Master Jay S. Penfil

astrobiologist said:


> I was present when Master Jay S. Penfil showed Master J.B. Yager some of his bunkai for Chil Sung Il Lo. I've always wondered what some of the movements may possibly mean when truly analyzed.
> 
> If you are seeking for less forms, but more knowledge of those forms you keep, then I don't see a problem with that.
> 
> I personally don't want to remove any of the forms I am currently training with, but I do want to get a deeper understanding of each and every form and technique I use.


 

I can arrange that...


----------



## astrobiologist

Master Jay S. Penfil said:


> I can arrange that...


 
:jediduel:

...and for that I am thankful


----------



## tsdmgk1336

astrobiologist said:


> :jediduel:
> 
> ...and for that I am thankful


 
Let me tell you you want find a better Master in Bunkai than Master Penfil. he has opened my eyes a lot...


----------



## JoelD

Question for you tsdmgk1336... Does the Mi Guk Kwan practice all 7 Chil sungs AND all 6 Yuk Ros?

I have heard of a couple other orgs that do some of the chil sungs but not all and those like in Master C.S. Kim's organization that dropped them altogether.


----------



## JWLuiza

maunakumu said:


> I was looking at the way that I learned the forms and looking at how they are being practiced on the net and realized that these forms are vibrant and active within the federation.  They are living creatures and the version I learned was a thing of the times.  Hell, they are the chil sungs of ten years ago.
> 
> Also, they are redundant.  So much of it is mix and matched from other hyung in the curriculum that it just doesn't make sense to keep practicing them in my dojang.
> 
> I've always said that the Chil Sung and Yuk Ros would be great as a martial art all by themselves.  Combined with the classical hyungs, its just too much, IMHO.



I just started with a new Fed. that includes the Chil Sung (only through O Ro) but not the Yuk Ro. I remembered this thread and wanted to dredge it up.

Like my esteemed friend and colleague from Hawaii nee Alaska and elsewhere, I've turned my eyes towards an Okinawan view of training, hyung, and applications. Heck, if there were a Koryu Uchinadi group in Pittsburgh, I would undoubtedly be there.

However, coming from a very early offshoot of the MDK, I wanted to explore my Korean heritage a bit more. I do agree with there being too many forms in many schools, but I love forms. I love applications even more. I am finding some value in the Chil Sungs so far... even a few mechanics that are unique or not as accentuated in my other curriculum. I haven't done too much application work yet, but have some ideas.


----------



## Makalakumu

It takes a different mindset in order to train a lot of hyung.  You've got to pick and choose applications from the various hyungs you practice and then drill the hell out of them.  It's possible to train all of the applications for all of the hyungs, but that is a lifetime of work, something that I would consider a Master level of study.

Essentially, I focus on the following empty hand forms.

Pinan 1-5
Naihanchi 1-3
Bassai Dai and Sho
Chinto
Rohai
Wansu
Jitte
Jion
Kusanku
Seisan
Gojushiho

I know the bunkai for applications for the Pinan series most intimately because that is what I teach the most.  The farther we get up the list, the less familiar I am with the applications.  From that list, there literally is about eight styles worth of information here.

So, where do the Chil Sung hyung fall into this picture?  I see them as their own stand alone style.  You could practice those seven kata and drill the bunkai and really have some awesome self defense.  It would be a lifetime of work because those are LONG hyungs.

On top of all of the other hyung though?  How many lifetimes do you got?  See what I mean?


----------



## JWLuiza

Oh, I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think if you boil it down, you could get by with one hyung only.


----------



## Mighty Mouse

Interesting. The school I started at taught the Chil Sung forms 1 and 2 just after the Pyung Ahn forms. It felt to me like another beginning in forms. Like it started the spiritual end of the martial arts. It's what got me deeper into meditations and expanding my martial arts knowledge. The Chil Sung forms introduced me into another aspect of the martial arts. To say the Chil Sung forms have no practical application is to also say we should not practice our one steps. One steps are far less practical than any form I know. As a matter of fact, to many students, one steps may be dangerous. You certainly don't want to teach self defense by teaching one steps but that is what is being done. It is explained later as a student advances, but nobody tells a white belt that our one steps are merely an exercise and hold very little practical self defense techniques.

The school I learned the Chil Sung forms at closed, I am at a different Tang Soo Do school which does not teach them. One day after class, I was performing Chil Sung Sam Ro. Everybody was looking at me and asked me what the heck that was. They all wanted to learn it. I love the Chil Sung forms and will practice them as long as my body allows me to. I now practice my Chil Sung's regularly before and after class. I am extremely grateful that I was taught them.


----------



## EMST930

"One steps are far less practical than any form I know. As a matter of fact, to many students, one steps may be dangerous. You certainly don't want to teach self defense by teaching one steps but that is what is being done. It is explained later as a student advances, but nobody tells a white belt that our one steps are merely an exercise and hold very little practical self defense techniques."

I don't mean to hijack this thread in a different direction, but I had to respond about the one-steps.  Not sure how your school practices them, but they are a VERY important step on the way to fighting.  For our students we stress that One-step fighting is the safest way to develop body awareness and distance control.  They help develop the basic footwork of lateral movement and balance and give you a living, breathing target to focus technique toward.  They force you to develop technique equally on both sides of the body without favoritism and to practice a wider range of technique (also without favoritism.)  It is also a drilled, controlled way to develop discipline and respect for one's opponent.  

My side note on the Chil Sungs--there are few things more painful than watching them done poorly...karate hell in my opinion would be a neverending stream of young children flopping through the Chil Sungs.


----------



## tsdclaflin

I like the Chil Sungs and in my recent move, I sought out a school that still teaches them.


----------



## kbarrett

I like the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyungs, they bring that element of the Shalion Long Fist into the Tang Soo Do style, there's nothing rong with the regular Hyungs, but I do believe the Chil Sung, Yuk Rho, and Hwa Sun Hyung add the missing Chinese essence to Tang Soo Do, and these hyungs where created by GM Hwang Kee.

Ken


----------

