# Chambering the fist like in the forms is unrealistic



## JowGaWolf (Nov 4, 2019)

Many of us have probably heard others say mention how TMA practitioners chamber their fists is not realistic to actual fighting.  We would never see anyone chamber their fist like this in a real fight.  It's an outdated technique. which is we don't see it in MMA.  blah blah blah.







I'm pretty sure that there are some beginner martial artist out there who really want to know what the deal is  about the chambered first.  Do people use chambered fist like the guy in the picture above?  The short answer is yes.  Below is a picture of me sparring.  I originally posted this image to talking about kicking people in the ribs and making your opponent commit.  And it occurred to me that I have a text book TMA chambered fist.  In the image, I'm transitioning into a thrust punch which 






In the image I'm transitioning into a thrust punch. And in drills this is how the one of our thrust punches start off as.  

So what is the value of chamberig the fist?  It depends on what technique you are doing.  In this particular case,  By having my hand chambered like this, I can put more weight and power into my punch,  Chambering my punch like this will also make my punch straight.  Elbows out punches are usually weaker than elbows in punches and aren't as accurate.  Many times people expect to see things exactly like in the form or drill, so if I'm standing in a horse stance doing punches then they expect to see that same thing in the fight.  Sometimes you will see exactly what was practiced in the form, but other times you'll see component of things that you drilled.

In Jow Ga kung fu, we do a lot of chambering of the fist. Traditional arts in general do a lot of fist chamabering and there are many people who think it's a waste. For me there is very little about what's in the forms that are a waste, even if it seems like "no one would ever fight with a chambered fist" I'm willing to bet that it's more common than we think. By the way if you chamber your fist during training then it will get to a point where you don't even realize you are doing it.  This vidoe is about 4 or 5 years old and I'm just now realizing that I have a chambered fist in this video. 

Keep training hard and trust your techniques.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Nov 5, 2019)

My annoyance mainly comes from them having you drop a guard, or a head guard to re chamber when your head guard is probably 10x more useful.   Or i should say, when they get you to drop a guard in a fighting drill.   

Also there is some semi old guards for western style boxing which have one of your hands over your solar plexus area which you could call a "chamber". 

And will you use a chamber if you arent taught it?    if thats the case isnt the point null if you dont practice a style which does it as it wont be in your muscle memory to do.  

Ultimately might be down to preference, like with how you choose a guard, its all down to your preference and situation.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 5, 2019)

Rat said:


> My annoyance mainly comes from them having you drop a guard, or a head guard to re chamber when your head guard is probably 10x more useful.   Or i should say, when they get you to drop a guard in a fighting drill.
> 
> Also there is some semi old guards for western style boxing which have one of your hands over your solar plexus area which you could call a "chamber".
> 
> ...


I've literally never been told to drop my guard from a head height guard to in chamber. If I'm drilling with my guard up, that guard _*is*_ the chamber position. Only time that I would be rechambering to the hip in drills is if that's where I started from.


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## drop bear (Nov 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I've literally never been told to drop my guard from a head height guard to in chamber. If I'm drilling with my guard up, that guard _*is*_ the chamber position. Only time that I would be rechambering to the hip in drills is if that's where I started from.



There is a difference to what people do and what they should do. 

So lthough I do flail around a bit during sparring it doesn't make it a technique.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2019)

Rat said:


> My annoyance mainly comes from them having you drop a guard, or a head guard to re chamber when your head guard is probably 10x more useful.


  Without thinking I'm going to go on a limb and say that in application it's not like that.  In training yes, but I can't think of any real work application where that occurs except in point sparring. Where they pose after landing a punch..  This is probably more common in Point Sparring than Continuous Sparring where you have to defend against strikes that are still coming in.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Without thinking I'm going to go on a limb and say that in application it's not like that.  In training yes, but I can't think of any real work application where that occurs except in point sparring. Where they pose after landing a punch..  This is probably more common in Point Sparring than Continuous Sparring where you have to defend against strikes that are still coming in.


Not sure why the attached files followed again. just ignore those


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> chamber their fists is not realistic to actual fighting.


For the preying mantis system, during the advance level training, the non-striking hand doesn't come back to the waist. This is the major difference between a style that emphasizes on "power generation" (such as Baji), vs a style that emphasizes on "speed generation" (such as preying mantis).

This also separate a form that's "principle" base (such as long fist) vs. a form that's "application" base (such as preying mantis).

In the following clip, you don't see the non-punching hand come back to the waist. The reason is simple, your non-striking hand has to deal with your opponent's arm. It doesn't have the luxury to come back to your waist.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 5, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This also separate a form that's "principle" base (such as long fist) vs. a form that's "application" base (such as preying mantis).
> 
> In the following clip, you don't see the non-punching hand come back to the waist. The reason is simple, your non-striking hand has to deal with your opponent's arm. It doesn't have the luxury to come back to your waist.


 Not sure what you mean about principal vs application..  Other systems chamber the fist as well.

Chambered punch.   No need to for Tyson to deal with the opponents right hand here.

View attachment 22564

Chambered fist again.  Guy on the left could not twist his body in this manner had he not chambered the fist.





Both fighters are chambered their right arm here.  One got KO'd




Chambered punch here.




Sugar Ray Leonard Clambering his punches.  When left fist strikes right arm chambers, to load the punch for when the left hand returns.





Ali chambered his punches too


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure what you mean about principal vs application..  Other systems chamber the fist as well.


If you need to use your other hand to deal with your opponent's arm, you don't have the luxury to pull your hand back to your waist.

Application base form - you fight exactly as you train.
Principle base form - you have to modify your form in fighting.


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## Martial D (Nov 5, 2019)

There is just no good reason to have your fist tucked away at your hip or below your shoulder. You won't hit any harder, you are undefended, and due to distance anything thrown from there will be telegraphed to the moon.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There is just no good reason to have your fist tucked away at your hip or below your shoulder.


I believe one of the purposes to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist is to extend your punching arm to obtain the maximum reach.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 5, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There is just no good reason to have your fist tucked away at your hip or below your shoulder. You won't hit any harder, you are undefended, and due to distance anything thrown from there will be telegraphed to the moon.


I cant say anything about pulling it all the way to your hips, but if you throw a bolo punch you'll be dropping your fist below your shoulder. It's an angles game sometimes, and going from below can help out with that (as long as you're in a position you're not worried about getting hit from).


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 5, 2019)

There are numerous reasons to chamber the fist at the waist when practicing basics or kata.  We don't fight like that in practical terms.  Anyone who thinks my arms are locked to my hips because they've seen me practice punches like that should spar with me and find out.


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 5, 2019)

Hand on the hip?  There is a method to this madness.  To further detail Bill's statements:

For beginners, chambering the fist back to the hip as you are punching with the other teaches reciprocating power generation, channeling the power of the returning hand to the punching hand.  Imagine (or actually try it) grabbing your belt ends in either hand and looping the belt around a post.  As you pull back one hand, the other hand automatically extends into a punch.  The harder/faster one hand comes back, the harder/faster the other one goes out.  As one advances in skill, the returning hand can lend power without chambering all the way to the hip.  This is in addition to power generated by hips and legs.

I think this topic has been discussed before, but its worth going over again.  Chojun Miyagi (Goju founder) wrote that in kata, a chambered hand usually has something in it (read: a part of the opponent.)  Traditional Okinawan karate has a lot of grabbing and pulling.  So, when chambering a hand to the hip, you are usually pulling the opponent in for a strike.

Other than this, one does NOT want to have a chambered hand on the hip.  It's too far away from the target and so takes much longer to land.  The exception to this would be if the opponent has been so set up by you (or is so slow) that you have the luxury of winding up for a kill shot.  Normal angled fighting stance would have the rear hand close to the chest, arm protecting vital organs and fist ready to fire.  Choki Motobu taught this in the 1920's and 30's and is illustrated in his book on kumite.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

The hand that you pull back to your waist, do you keep your "large fist eye" facing outside, or do you keep your "larger fist eye" facing upward?

Do you think this may make some difference?​











Right - large fist eye.
Left - small fist eye.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2019)

It has long been my opinion that - in many systems, but perhaps not all - the extreme chamber is an approach to teaching specific principles and mechanics. It may or may not be useful in any given application, but appears to work for teaching how to punch. There are other approaches (I can't recall ever seeing the extreme chamber taught in a boxing video).

I can come up with a few circumstances where bringing that hand back may be useful. I can come up with many circumstances where the mechanics and principles (rotation, having some "reserve" power at the ready, etc.) are useful. My sparring these days looks like a blend between boxing and TJMA. It almost all derives from fairly typical traditional Japanese drills, and the principles I was taught in them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hand that you pull back to your waist, do you keep your "large fist eye" facing outside, or do you keep your "larger fist eye" facing upward?
> 
> Do you think this may make some difference?​
> 
> ...


It depends on the situation. Rarely does the palm face up. Sometimes the palm faces toward me. Mostly, it faces toward the center line. From time to time, I find it facing out. All of those might happen with a fist or with an open hand.


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> There is just no good reason to have your fist tucked away at your hip or below your shoulder. You won't hit any harder, you are undefended, and due to distance anything thrown from there will be telegraphed to the moon.


not so sure, its a particularly good mechanic for throwing very hard punches, its extensively a bench press movement with some upper body rotation thrown in for extra umph, your realy strong from that position, try bench pressing from else where to see what i mean.

. the down side as you point out is your not defending your head, but then very few people defend their head anyway, even boxers who are trained to have high cover commonly don't, except when they are actually under attack,as its a poor position to throw punches from.

i fight from a sort of halfway house, with my elbows tucked in, but not as far back as is common with the chambered punch, and my hand at more or less shoulder height, that way i can quickly transition to either taking my elbow back for a chamber punch or moving my hands up to cover.

im sure a good boxer would exploit that, but a good boxer will knock me over no matter what i do. against the run of the mill, it works quite well


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I believe one of the purposes to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist is to extend your punching arm to obtain the maximum reach.


But it doesn't give you more reach.


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> But it doesn't give you more reach.


 it gives you more reach than a hook punch, or an upper cut etal, but exactly the same as a straight right


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## Danny T (Nov 6, 2019)

In fighting and arms flailing around it is easy to stop a moment in time to freeze a photo moment and say "see where his hands are" and use such for your desired discussion.

Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas? Why not? Yet when viewing full force movements within a fight you'll see it occur often as a natural human movement for balance and/or torque. However, such is not the same as the practiced chambering within forms which is a much more compact and deliberate movement. 

Why Chamber...
1. It creates the body as a whole to be more compact and one must use the hips more for power generation than just using the upper body limbs. So for a beginner it is like a train wheel version of learning to ride a bicycle. When the practitioner has ingrained using the hips the arms can now be utilized elsewhere just as a child is able to remove the training wheels from the bicycle as they learn to control their balance on the bicycle.

2. The practitioner later learns or should learn one is either placing something at the hip/waist area or is removing something from there.

3. Many of the moves, positions, postures, are based on a grappling...'grabbing, seizing, controlling of a body limb, head, or neck' and not blocking or setting up for a strike. 

4. Chambering, as in many of the other actions, can be used in a multitude of ways.


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It has long been my opinion that - in many systems, but perhaps not all - the extreme chamber is an approach to teaching specific principles and mechanics. It may or may not be useful in any given application, but appears to work for teaching how to punch. There are other approaches (I can't recall ever seeing the extreme chamber taught in a boxing video).
> 
> I can come up with a few circumstances where bringing that hand back may be useful. I can come up with many circumstances where the mechanics and principles (rotation, having some "reserve" power at the ready, etc.) are useful. My sparring these days looks like a blend between boxing and TJMA. It almost all derives from fairly typical traditional Japanese drills, and the principles I was taught in them.


No..it does not teach you how to punch. If your habit is to keep your arm out of your opponents way you have probably never stood in front of anyone that hits back.

It's hilarious watching these sorts in challenge matches, holding their traditional stance just long enough to get hit and get their hands up(enter sloppy kickboxing)

The motion of pulling back to chamber probably simulated an arm drag or similar grappling maneuver, which was just forgotten by generations of kata doers that no longer applied it to anything. At least it makes some sense in that context.


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> not so sure, its a particularly good mechanic for throwing very hard punches, its extensively a bench press movement with some upper body rotation thrown in for extra umph, your realy strong from that position, try bench pressing from else where to see what i mean.
> 
> . the down side as you point out is your not defending your head, but then very few people defend their head anyway, even boxers who are trained to have high cover commonly don't, except when they are actually under attack,as its a poor position to throw punches from.
> 
> ...


You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.


well no, as can be easily shown by experiment, get a heavy dumbell , lie on a bench and see which of a cambered movement or a shoulder throw generates the most power, i said nothing about having your hand at you hip. .that doesn't seem good mechanics at all

distance should add speed, which then adds energy, that is it takes distance to accelerate your arm to max velocity, admitedly you can have to much distance, but generally the more the better, as people generally fail to hit high velocity over short distances


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> well no, as can be easily shown by experiment, get a heavy dumbell , lie on a bench and see which of a cambered movement or a shoulder throw generates the most power, i said nothing about having your hand at you hip. .that doesn't seem good mechanics at all
> 
> distance should add speed, which then adds energy, that is it takes distance to accelerate your arm to max velocity, admitedly you can have to much distance, but generally the more the better, as people generally fail to hit high velocity over short distances


Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.

As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.
> 
> As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.


 no it should come from the arm, the other movements just increase it or to turn it round if your not using the muscles in your arm and shoulder efficiently all the foot  and hip travel in the world are not going to make it a good punch


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> no it should come from the arm, the other movements just increase it or to turn it round if your not using the muscles in your arm and shoulder efficiently all the foot  and hip travel in the world are not going to make it a good punch



Gonna have to side with every boxer to ever live on this one. Roberto Duran once famously quoted that any punch longer than 6 inches is wasted motion, and I'd totally agree.


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Gonna have to side with every boxer to ever live on this one. Roberto Duran once famously quoted that any punch longer than 6 inches is wasted motion, and I'd totally agree.


 i think you may be quote mining there, unless of course your saying that mr duran never bothered himself throwing any punch over that distance, which i know to be as a fact is not true, having watch him fight a few times


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> i think you may be quote mining there, unless of course your saying that mr duran never bothered himself throwing any punch over that distance, which i know to be as a fact is not true, having watch him fight a few times


 Of course he did. Fights seldom look crisp and clean, they are chaotic. He was speaking of an ideal that is already really apperant to people that box.

I honestly find it weird that you think the primary source of punching power is the arm, rather than the whole body. Is that a krav maga thing?


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Of course he did. Fights seldom look crisp and clean, they are chaotic. He was speaking of an ideal that is already really apperant to people that box.
> 
> I honestly find it weird that you think the primary source of punching power is the arm, rather than the whole body. Is that a krav maga thing?


well thats makes his quote that he wouldn't waste effort punching a greater distance, obvious nonsense

try it for yourself, all these things are easily tested, first punch without using your body, then punch moving your body and not your arm, you'll notice that one is considerably stronger than the other. that a clear indication of where the majority of the power comes from. let me know how it turns out


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> well thats makes his quote that he wouldn't waste effort punching a greater distance, obvious nonsense
> 
> try it for yourself, all these things are easily tested, first punch without using your body, then punch moving your body and not your arm, you'll notice that one is considerably stronger than the other. that a clear indication of where the majority of the power comes from. let me know how it turns out


Your first sentence is just silly, so I'll ignore that.

The second bit actually isn't true either. You can generate WAY more force keeping your hands stationary, just dipping and twisting your body, than you can moving your fist forward with your arm. Are you just trolling or do you believe that? I find it a bit surprising that you don't understand boxing power generation. I thought all you Brits boxed?


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## jobo (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Your first sentence is just silly, so I'll ignore that.
> 
> The second bit actually isn't true either. You can generate WAY more force keeping your hands stationary, just dipping and twisting your body, than you can moving your fist forward with your arm. Are you just trolling or do you believe that? I find it a bit surprising that you don't understand boxing power generation. I thought all you Brits boxed?


 no your quote mine was silly, 

and your wrong on the second point as well, now go away and test it. or show a vid of a boxer knocking someone out with no arm movement at all.  and il post one of a knock out with no body movement.  that would seem to settle the issue


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Martial D said:


> But it doesn't give you more reach.


If you

- don't twist your body, it wont.
- twist your body, it will.

Of course you don't need to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist to get the maximum extension.







Back to the waist is just to remind "body twisting".

Punch with body twist - punching arm and body form a 180 degree straight line.






Punch without body twist - punching arm and body form a 90 degree angle.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Another reason to pull your non-punching hand back to your waist is to train "how to grab and pull your opponent's blocking arm after your punch".

Of course one other reason is to balance your body movement. When you right roundhouse kick on your heavy bag, do you swing your left back hand from your left shoulder to your right shoulder?

It's the same principle. Your right

- arm move forward, your left arm move backward.
- leg move counter clock-wise, your left hand move clockwise.


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## Buka (Nov 6, 2019)

I love arm punchers. They were my favorite people to fight. 

It's like getting hit with those little marshmallows they put in cocoa.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 6, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas?


In training, you try to use your arms rotation can enhance your body rotation.

At 0.13.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The hand that you pull back to your waist, do you keep your "large fist eye" facing outside, or do you keep your "larger fist eye" facing upward?
> 
> Do you think this may make some difference?​



Isshinryu fist formation doesn't look like that, and we don't punch like that.

We use a vertical fist, thumb on top, fist angled slightly down so that the first two knuckles are the impact zone.  We do not throw the corkscrew punch as a matter of typical practice.


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## dvcochran (Nov 6, 2019)

The short answer is learning the elemental components of punching. "Cocking" the arm is a learned motion for most people. Usually, it greatly increases the power of a punch. Style can be a factor but regardless of style most people will learn the other components of making power, many of which @gpseymour mentioned, and not have to rely on chambering the arm. Like forms themselves, chambering is a tool used to teach and a tool used to apply.


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

jobo said:


> no your quote mine was silly,
> 
> and your wrong on the second point as well, now go away and test it. or show a vid of a boxer knocking someone out with no arm movement at all.  and il post one of a knock out with no body movement.  that would seem to settle the issue


LOL

You get silly sometimes.


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

Buka said:


> I love arm punchers. They were my favorite people to fight.
> 
> It's like getting hit with those little marshmallows they put in cocoa.


Seriously.

I didn't think even jobo would be arguing the effacy of arm punching. What a crazy day.


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## Martial D (Nov 6, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you
> 
> - don't twist your body, it wont.
> - twist your body, it will.
> ...


Ya, I've always thought that chambering motion made more sense as a pull than a pose.

And yes, side on is more reach than square, with shades of grey in between. You can still keep that back hand in a useful position regardless of what angle you're on tho.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> No..it does not teach you how to punch. If your habit is to keep your arm out of your opponents way you have probably never stood in front of anyone that hits back.
> 
> It's hilarious watching these sorts in challenge matches, holding their traditional stance just long enough to get hit and get their hands up(enter sloppy kickboxing)
> 
> The motion of pulling back to chamber probably simulated an arm drag or similar grappling maneuver, which was just forgotten by generations of kata doers that no longer applied it to anything. At least it makes some sense in that context.


It does teach how to punch. It doesn't teach how to defend. Those are separate things (though they can be taught together).

You seem to either not understand or to ignore the mechanics being taught via exaggeration. Exaggerated movement exercises are, IMO, common in traditional Japanese training exercises. They work well in some ways, though they have some inherent limitations.

Essentially, the punch I learned via this kind of chamber-and-punch drill is the same mechanically as the punch I use in sparring, where I can't recall ever doing a full chamber. I find students who struggle with punching (and that's about half of them, IMO) give a better punch early with these types of exercises. And even those who learn quickly often show their punching flaws faster in these exercises - though that latter may simply be me being better at spotting those flaws in these drills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> You'll get more power just throwing from the shoulder. You don't need to have your hand at your hips to engage your hips, and the only time distance adds power is if it's a swing, like a haymaker or an overhand. The rest of the time it just teaches you to arm punch.


You seem to be confusing "can" with "must". It is possible to teach these principles with a chamber-and-punch start. It is not necessary to use that to teach them. There are other methods that seem to also work.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ya, my whole issue here is with the TMA style hip or below the shoulder fist chamber. 'chambering' to the guard position is a whole different thing.
> 
> As for power, it shouldn't come from the arm, but the driving foot, hip rotation, and elbow/shoulder drive. You can generate tremendous punching power with very short travel distance. Extra distance is just extra time to be countered.


The point several of us are making is that the deep chamber (hip or ribs) is really just an exaggeration of pulling back in the guard position. Same mechanics.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Ya, I've always thought that chambering motion made more sense as a pull than a pose.


What do you mean "as a pose"? It shouldn't be a posed position, except in drills (checking form, for instance).


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## Martial D (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It does teach how to punch. It doesn't teach how to defend. Those are separate things (though they can be taught together).
> 
> You seem to either not understand or to ignore the mechanics being taught via exaggeration. Exaggerated movement exercises are, IMO, common in traditional Japanese training exercises. They work well in some ways, though they have some inherent limitations.
> 
> Essentially, the punch I learned via this kind of chamber-and-punch drill is the same mechanically as the punch I use in sparring, where I can't recall ever doing a full chamber. I find students who struggle with punching (and that's about half of them, IMO) give a better punch early with these types of exercises. And even those who learn quickly often show their punching flaws faster in these exercises - though that latter may simply be me being better at spotting those flaws in these drills.


Doing that might teach you to do tip tap TMA arm punches, I guess.  

Anyway, you are arguing against things nobody said. The whole thread is about keeping your hand in chamber for real, not 'exagerated drilling'


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## Martial D (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to be confusing "can" with "must". It is possible to teach these principles with a chamber-and-punch start. It is not necessary to use that to teach them. There are other methods that seem to also work.



Actually doing that only teaches bad habits. Why do you want a throw and retract from the hip, with maximum arm travel and minimum body engagement, trained into your muscle memory?


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## jobo (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> LOL
> 
> You get silly sometimes.


i'm trying to have a serious discussion, but your declining to give any evidence for your claim, as your fond of saying ;'' anecdotes are a dime a dozen '

 to be clear I'm not saying that body movement does not enhance punching power, coz it does. I'm saying that the majority of a punches power comes from your arm/shoulder movement. at least mine does. maybe if you train differently it doesnt apply. but as you wont provieded a rational for your view its difficult to say.



my rational, is i can '' chamber punch' a 100lb dumbell up with no difficulty, that's a significant amount of energy to transfer into someone, the last time a threw such a punch in anger, i was stepping backwards to get the correct range and it was still hard enough to snap his head back and split his eye open. if i had a stable position im reasonable confident that it would have knocked him over.

that clearly means that my ''arm punches'' are far from ineffective. maybe if you invested some time in developing your arm strength then you may have a similar view


----------



## Martial D (Nov 7, 2019)

jobo said:


> i'm trying to have a serious discussion, but your declining to give any evidence for your claim, as your fond of saying ;'' anecdotes are a dime a dozen '
> 
> to be clear I'm not saying that body movement does not enhance punching power, coz it does. I'm saying that the majority of a punches power comes from your arm/shoulder movement. at least mine does. maybe if you train differently it doesnt apply. but as you wont provieded a rational for your view its difficult to say.
> 
> ...


Yes, you are basically arguing for flat Earth at this point.

If you want to believe in your arm punching, go right ahead. There is no convincing you of anything.


----------



## jobo (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yes, you are basically arguing for flat Earth at this point.
> 
> If you want to believe in your arm punching, go right ahead. There is no convincing you of anything.


 your talking nonsense and refusing to back it up, its rather you thats follows the flat earth debating style


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Actually doing that only teaches bad habits. Why do you want a throw and retract from the hip, with maximum arm travel and minimum body engagement, trained into your muscle memory?


If it’s done right, with appropriate drills, I’ve never seen those habits manifest in sparring beyond the beginner.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Doing that might teach you to do tip tap TMA arm punches, I guess.
> 
> Anyway, you are arguing against things nobody said. The whole thread is about keeping your hand in chamber for real, not 'exagerated drilling'


It does quite the opposite. It teaches to use the body and legs in the punch. Failing to use them shows up pretty obviously.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> If it’s done right, with appropriate drills, I’ve never seen those habits manifest in sparring beyond the beginner.


I think the chamber punch is misunderstood when it comes to application.  Sort of like horse stance and bow stance.  For some reason people expect it to look just like it those in the focused punching drills.  They see a fight where the person moves around with the fist chambered. They don't think about or see it as a quick transition or a temporary placement of the hand, or the loading of a punch


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## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Danny T said:


> Do you practice pulling your hand back beyond your head in forms or katas? Why not?



We do.  It is absolutely fundamental to how we practice punching, and developing power from the feet and legs to drive rotation in the torso.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think the chamber punch is misunderstood when it comes to application.  Sort of like horse stance and bow stance.  For some reason people expect it to look just like it those in the focused punching drills.  They see a fight where the person moves around with the fist chambered. They don't think about or see it as a quick transition or a temporary placement of the hand, or the loading of a punch


I think for a lot of people who don’t see it or don’t think about it, not seeing it is deliberate.


----------



## Buka (Nov 7, 2019)

What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....

I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.

In every single one of them, TMA included, every one of them teaches you to punch with your whole body. _Every single one._

I've been searching my memory for the last couple days trying to remember even one that didn't teach to punch with your whole body, chambered hand or not. Can't recall even one instance of this_. _Not a one.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....
> 
> I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.
> 
> ...


I agree. I believe different systems go about that training in different ways, and these differences in training methodologies are a big part of what distinguishes one system from another.  But the end goal is the same.  

I also believe that some schools do a very poor job of it, to the point where I suspect the instructor does not understand it, never learned it.  When that happens, the concept can become lost for all those who are downstream in that lineage.

But I agree with you, I believe that in any school doing a good job of teaching, some form of full-body engagement is part of the methods.  Or at least should be.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The point several of us are making is that the deep chamber (hip or ribs) is really just an exaggeration of pulling back in the guard position. Same mechanics.


It can be an arm control - block with left arm, wrap, pull, punch with right arm.

Boxers don't pull non-punching hand back to the waist because they don't pull after their punch.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 7, 2019)

Buka said:


> What I don't understand, which, granted, is a LOT, but....
> 
> I've trained in a whole lot of dojos and a whole lot of styles. Both traditional, non traditional, boxing blah blah blah.
> 
> ...


The only thing that I can think of is a stiff arm in football doesn't use the bodies. It's not a martial art, but it shows an instance where you don't need to use your whole body while running away. Outside of that, the tsuki in sumo I sometimes see without any body behind it, but I don't think that's the norm there.


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## Martial D (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It does quite the opposite. It teaches to use the body and legs in the punch. Failing to use them shows up pretty obviously.


Yet, kiah! Style punching has been proven to be significantly weaker than boxing style punches. Why do you suppose that is? Different mechanics, perhaps?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yet, kiah! Style punching has been proven to be significantly weaker than boxing style punches. Why do you suppose that is? Different mechanics, perhaps?


Weaker doesn’t mean “arm only”, which was your assertion. I don’t see a distinct difference in the mechanics, but that might be because I was taught TMA punching by a golden gloves boxer.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Yet, kiah! Style punching has been proven to be significantly weaker than boxing style punches. Why do you suppose that is? Different mechanics, perhaps?


The preying mantis style punch has weaker punch than the Baji style punch because they care more about speed than power.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Weaker doesn’t mean “arm only”, which was your assertion.


If you only move your arm without moving your body, your punch can be faster but with less power.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> punch with your whole body.


This is my favor "punch with the whole body" drill.


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## Martial D (Nov 8, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you only move your arm without moving your body, your punch can be faster but with less power.


I don't know. Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?

If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is my favor "punch with the whole body" drill.


I can’t see what the feet and legs and lower torso are doing, so it’s hard for me to say.


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## drop bear (Nov 8, 2019)

jobo said:


> no it should come from the arm, the other movements just increase it or to turn it round if your not using the muscles in your arm and shoulder efficiently all the foot  and hip travel in the world are not going to make it a good punch



I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.

And is generally the reason nobody can body punch well. Because they try to fling this huge arm and it just doesn't work. Rather than walk into to a good position to throw.






reaching with your hands and not your feet is a common mistake. It is a big one in grappling as well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I don't know. Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?
> 
> If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?


When you try to smash a fly 3 feet in front of your face with both palms, will your hands move first (your hand then pull your body), or will you body move first (your body then push your arm)?

For

- power, your body push your arm.
- speed, your arm pull your body. When your hand contact your opponent's body, you then add your body behind your punch.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I can’t see what the feet and legs and lower torso are doing, so it’s hard for me to say.


The footwork is cover step (move one foot across and in front of another) followed by stealing step (move one foot across and behind the other).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.


Agree! Here are examples. You can use your whole body as weapon and not just your arm.


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## Headhunter (Nov 8, 2019)

Far as I'm concerned it's a point of reference for a begginer. They're told keep the other hand on the belt. So they get used to the hand being in one place and the way it's set makes it easier to teach the rotation of the punch. Later as they advance they lift the hand from the hip to the head and it's almost exactly at the same position as the waste and gives a good guard. Also move the arm forward a little you've got a good body cover to protect your ribs. There's plenty of hidden uses for it


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## Buka (Nov 8, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The only thing that I can think of is a stiff arm in football doesn't use the bodies. It's not a martial art, but it shows an instance where you don't need to use your whole body while running away. Outside of that, the tsuki in sumo I sometimes see without any body behind it, but I don't think that's the norm there.



I teach straight arms. While they don't use as much of your body as a typical fighting strike done with the arms, they use your body motion against a target that might be moving in relation to you, or, sometimes, against a somewhat stationary body that's trying to impede or intercept you.

You use your steps, which I suppose you could call footwork, to replace the power you would use punching from a somewhat stable base. We used to use straight arms for training against multiples as well as for moving people out of a space or out of your way. 

They're just an option - like anything else.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 8, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The footwork is cover step (move one foot across and in front of another) followed by stealing step (move one foot across and behind the other).


I guess I would like to see how well he roots, and derives power from his legs.  Then I can better see what is happening.  The specific stepping is less important.


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## JP3 (Nov 8, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I don't know. Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?
> 
> If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?


I'd agree with that.  I think that what's going on here is the ever-elusive idea of always strike from your center... otherwise known as power comes from the earth/ground... or punching power comes from your hips. Whatever, they all end up meaning the same thing to me, in principle.

It's possible to strike solidly with just a flailing arm motion. Anyone can learn to deliver a backfist that's good enough to bust open a mouse over someone's eye, break a nose, or knockout a tooth sometimes with no body involvement, but with good technique in the shoulder, upper arm, forearm, wrist nd hand itself.  It seems alien, but I can conceptually "see" a straight punch doing the same thing.

But, add in the additional energy which can be generated and delivreed through said strike with the additional muscle mass driving the body's weight/energy/momentum right into the same strike, exponential growth of energy delivery results.

Stand still, use only the shoulder, arm and hand to execute a simple hook punch. Watch how much the bag moves, even if you're giving it all you got with just that much.

Then, go ahead and throw the same punch with what we call "proper" body mechanics driving the punch. Viola! Bag ends up giving you a much better feedback by flying away.a


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 8, 2019)

Martial D said:


> I don't know. Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?
> 
> If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?


The speed of the fist should be greater with rotation added. The time from start to finish, of course, can be longer (slower), since you have to move more mass.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 8, 2019)

When we talk about punch with body behind, I always like to put up this clip. Each and every punch that he does may take about 1 second. In fighting, you just don't have that 1 full second.


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## drop bear (Nov 8, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The speed of the fist should be greater with rotation added. The time from start to finish, of course, can be longer (slower), since you have to move more mass.



Yeah but you are more likely to loose structure.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 9, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Yeah but you are more likely to loose structure.


It’s early right now, so maybe it’s just me, but I can’t figure out what you mean. Can you elaborate?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 9, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When we talk about punch with body behind, I always like to put up this clip. Each and every punch that he does may take about 1 second. In fighting, you just don't have that 1 full second.


I think the time it “takes” is irrelevant.  He is demonstrating the method to a group of people.  They need to be able to see what he is doing.  Too fast, and they cannot see.  I am sure he can generate and apply much faster than he is showing. 

I am sure he can apply it where and when necessary, and the “time” it takes is meaningless.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 9, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think the time it “takes” is irrelevant.  He is demonstrating the method to a group of people.  They need to be able to see what he is doing.  Too fast, and they cannot see.  I am sure he can generate and apply much faster than he is showing.
> 
> I am sure he can apply it where and when necessary, and the “time” it takes is meaningless.


This is what I'm thinking as well. He's doing the technique in a way that others can see the mechanics of it..I would be shocked if he said.  "This is how you do this technique in application."

A lot of things that look real slow in training or when demoed like this are actually much faster in application.  Just for looking at it without knowing his fighting skills, I still wouldn't want to get a shoulder bump from this guy. 

I do fajin when I do my tai chi and yeah it's not as easy to generate power. Most of it feels really weak because I don't have that body connection yet. Body movements aren't syncing up.  Jow Ga has something similar to fajin but it's easier for me to do than fajin.  I'll get it right one day.


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## drop bear (Nov 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It’s early right now, so maybe it’s just me, but I can’t figure out what you mean. Can you elaborate?



Whenever you need strength your arms need to be close to your body because the structure is better.

So while you gain velocity by stretching you are not as solid. And you are not as strong.

As I mentioned it is precisely what people do wrong when they wind up and wing massive body shots.


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## Buka (Nov 10, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> The speed of the fist should be greater with rotation added. The time from start to finish, of course, can be longer (slower), since you have to move more mass.



It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.


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## Buka (Nov 10, 2019)

One of the fondest memories was a point match I watched at a tournament between my sparring partner, Billy Blanks, and my friend Andre Tippett. Andre, a NFL Hall of Fame linebacker, was six three and about 230. But football wasn't his main physical activity, Karate was, he had been training since he was a child. Billy was six feet and around two hundred at the time.

They had what I always referred to as  the best F - You fight I ever saw. They faced off, in loose tournament style stances, that back hand sort of chambered, but not quite.....and when the ref said go they would just charge at each other. Both of them were extremely fast and could close distance as quick as anybody I've seen. And each time they just slammed each other in the chest at the same time, hard as they could, like a gunshot. Either could have done something else and scored, but, nope, they were in some sort of Karate war that day. I wasn't in the stands, I was on the floor right in front of them. I had won lightweight that day, and would be fighting whichever of the two won the heavyweight division. Lucky me.

As fast as they were, they would each slam the other at the same time, like head butting rams. The refs would all call "clash" and immediately say go again. And they did it again, and again, and again, and harder and harder and harder. Honest to God, it was the craziest Karate thing I've ever seen, the stands were going absolutely nuts.

At the time, Andre was playing Linebacker for the Patriots in the NFL. Unbeknownst to him, some New England Patriots big shots had come to watch him in this tournament, which Andre had told them was just a game of tag. They almost had heart attacks watching this match of two guys who appeared to be trying to kill each other. The coaches called him into their offices the following Monday and informed him he couldn't be doing any more of that karate stuff while was he was still on contract. 

But, man, what a match. You don't want either one of them throwing no chambered reverse punch into your body. Not even to your chest. It is not conducive to healthy living.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.


This is a good observation.  So many times we single out a technique and look at that technique without factoring "everything else" that is being used with that technique.

Below is an example of what you just stated.  3 things going on all at once.

Blocking /redirecting / moving opponent's right and out of the way. (how ever you see it my left hand hooking my sparring partner's right arm)
Stepping and advancing at the same time. Which is also used to help generate power and speed as well as helps to close the distance. (stepped after the kick )

Waist twisting to helping generate power and by twisting the waist I can use it to help speed up the punch, This way my arm isn't trying to do all of the work

Chambered fist. Punch is loaded and ready to fire.  No need to draw it back to load it up.  I just have to send it forward.







Watching the video below.  How long does it actually take me to launch the chambered punch. The punch is launched before my heel hits the flow.  Keep in mind this is not full speed, full power sparring.  So how long would it take for someone faster than me to load (chamber) and fire the punch?
I tried to count and it seems that it took me less than a second.  I threw a total of for 4 strikes. I pressed my computer's stopwatch, then clicked the video and stopped the watch when the chambered punch landed. I got a little over 2 seconds.  I don't know how accurate that is, but that puts 4 strikes in a little more than 2 seconds.  Maybe someone can get an more accurate time.  So what are we really looking at when we say that a punch is slow or that a punch is going to be slow?  And even if that punch is slower than a jab.  Is it so slow that it prevents you from being able to land it.





Now would I have started out with a chambered thrust punch as the first punch,  I can't think of any scenario in which I would.  For me it's not that type of punch. It's not the punch that one uses as a jab.  It's the punch that one would use in a combination attack, like a 1-2-3 in boxing. 2 quick punches one power punch.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> You don't want either one of them throwing no chambered reverse punch into your body. Not even to your chest. It is not conducive to healthy living.


lol I don't want anyone doing this to me, I don't care who it is. lol.


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## Buka (Nov 10, 2019)

What works for me, by choice mind you....

...for the sake of discussion, let's say I'm throwing a right cross. All power that I generate starts within my core. I have an imaginary axis running vertically through the top of my head, out my backside. It rotates extremely tight on it's center. One side is exploding backwards on the axis, the other side exploding forward on the axis. It is my fast twitch, drive shaft.

While that' s happening, literally at the same time, my rear foot is pivoting with all my leg/back/hip power generating from the ground.
While that's happening, literally at the same time, my shoulder is marrying my chin. My eyes are lasered on a point. Where that point is depends on what I'm trying to do. Sometimes I'm looking at you right in the eye. Sometimes, I'm looking at your feet. It depends.

It all happens at once. How long it takes is how long it takes me to twitch my core. Working on it for decades makes it fairly quick. I use several imaginary axis....(what is the plural of axis? I can never remember) throughout my body, especially when I punch. Don't really think about it except for when teaching. When training or fighting it's kind of like breathing, it just happens.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Why would body rotation slow down your arm and shoulder muscles?
> 
> If you accelerate your arm INTO a rotation of the body, shouldn't the rotation speed add to the total speed?


You have right leg forward.

1. You move your back left leg to your right and behind your right leg (stealing step).
2. Your footwork pull your body, and your body start to rotate.
3. Your body rotation pull your arm, and finish a right hook punch.

There is a delay between your start to move your left leg and your right hook land on your opponent's head. If you skip 1 and 2, your hook will be faster but with less power.

This is why I believe power and speed are 2 extremes. If you want maximum

- power, you won't have maximum speed (the full power generation take more time).
- speed. you won't have maximum power (you don't have full compressing and full releasing).


----------



## JowGaWolf (Nov 10, 2019)

Buka said:


> What works for me, by choice mind you....
> 
> ...for the sake of discussion, let's say I'm throwing a right cross. All power that I generate starts within my core. I have an imaginary axis running vertically through the top of my head, out my backside. It rotates extremely tight on it's center. One side is exploding backwards on the axis, the other side exploding forward on the axis. It is my fast twitch, drive shaft.
> 
> ...


All of what you stated is true for me as well. Wit the exception that I don't use a pivot, but even though that's different the concept is the same. The things that you train with dedication eventually becomes like breathing, Your brain already knows those calculations so it can just spit it out.  But this wasn't always the case at least for me.  Training made it so because the skill set and abilities that I have now i didn't have as a beginner.

Same as you there's a lot that I do that is like breathing.  One day someone asked how I do my sweeps. I literally had to think and take note of how I was doing my sweeps so I could answer the question.  For me, I would have had a better answer when I was learning the sweep than while I already know it.  Sometimes I leave things out because it happens "naturally"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think the time it “takes” is irrelevant.  He is demonstrating the method to a group of people.


Can you find any clip that people can finish a complete power generation less than 1 second?

The following clips all take 1 second.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 10, 2019)

When we do our basic we chamber our hand even when we do kata


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 10, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> When we do our basic we chamber our hand even when we do kata


What about when you spar?


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> What about when you spar?


We don't chamber in sparring we put our hand up to guard


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 10, 2019)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> We don't chamber in sparring we put our hand up to guard


What do you find the purpose for chambering, if you dont actually use it in sparring?


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## Bruce7 (Nov 10, 2019)

JowGaWolf said:


> Not sure what you mean about principal vs application..  Other systems chamber the fist as well.
> 
> Chambered punch.   No need to for Tyson to deal with the opponents right hand here.
> 
> ...


I like your videos.
hands cambered ready to punch vs hands up protecting their head.
I was at a school watching a new girl she was a black belt with very fast hands and feet.
The teacher was telling her put up hands ,that she was not protecting her head.
She did as the teacher said and her hand speed slowed down.
Her arms muscles were not lose and her punches had no snap.
if they can punch or kick you faster than you can move or block you are not going to win that fight.
I put my hands up when I am hurt,  trying to escape, not when I am trying to win.
Your videos show that well.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 10, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I put my hands up when I am hurt,  trying to escape, not when I am trying to win.


Agree with you 100% there.

People always say to put up your hands. This make no sense if we don't consider the distance.

If I'm

- 20 feet away from you, I'll be safe even if I lay down on the ground.
- 10 feet away from you, I'll be safe even if I drop both hands next to my knee.
- 6 feet away from you, the best position for my hands will be on my chest level with 1 hand in the front and 1 hand in the back. I may need to deal with your kick first.
- 4 feet away from you, the best position for my hands will be net to your face.

To use your arms to protect your head is too conservative way of thinking. It's better for your opponent to raise his arms to protect his head instead. The best defense is not to give your opponent enough space for his power generation and speed generation. In order to achieve that, you will need to jam the space with your extended arms - such as a rhino guard.


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## drop bear (Nov 11, 2019)

Bruce7 said:


> I like your videos.
> hands cambered ready to punch vs hands up protecting their head.
> I was at a school watching a new girl she was a black belt with very fast hands and feet.
> The teacher was telling her put up hands ,that she was not protecting her head.
> ...



Worst time to get lazy is when you are winning. You walk in to that one shot and you could be over.


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## Bruce7 (Nov 11, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Worst time to get lazy is when you are winning. You walk in to that one shot and you could be over.


I agree bending forward leading with your face is not a good idea.


----------



## jobo (Nov 12, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.
> 
> 
> And is generally the reason nobody can body punch well. Because they try to fling this huge arm and it just doesn't work. Rather than walk into to a good position to throw.
> ...


people keep saying that and it seems to be more a decleration of faith than a fact.

if we are talking about boxing then if true some one will have tested the hypothersis and published data on it. So it would be easy to prove, but thus far no proof is forth comming.

Im prepared to admit the possibility that this may vary considerably with body weight. It seem reasonable that someone who weights 300 lb may exceed his punching power by transferring that considerable weight into his punch and someone say 150lb may be more dependent on arm power. But as no data is being made available we may never know ?


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 12, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I would have said footwork and body movement generate power more than arm movement.
> 
> And is generally the reason nobody can body punch well. Because they try to fling this huge arm and it just doesn't work. Rather than walk into to a good position to throw.
> 
> ...


Moving the feet allows the person to retain the optimum structure for the punch.  if a hook is most powerful at 3 feet away the it's possible to maintain this effective range by moving the.  reaching pulls us out of our most effective structure and the punch won't be as powerful. 

This is something that's easy to verify.  Go up to a punching bag and increase the distance. First reach  to try to hit the bag and then use the feet to close the distance.   There will be significant differences in power and balance that can be felt.

I think of it like a baseball swing.   Do you stand and swing or do you step into the swing?  golf swings work in a similar way but with both feet planted. But you'll often see that front knee bend as if they are mini stepping into the swing.


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## Martial D (Nov 12, 2019)

Buka said:


> It shouldn't be longer if all motion happens at the same time. Which it should in my opinion. At the same time......like a bomb going off. Not a sizzling warm up of the fuse being lit, but the actual explosion itself.


This guy gets it


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## isshinryuronin (Nov 12, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> What do you find the purpose for chambering, if you dont actually use it in sparring?


To repeat:  The main reason for chambering the hand, at least in original karate kata, is that it represents pulling the opponent into a strike with the other hand.  There is a lot of grabbing and pulling in traditional Okinawan karate.  Other than that, it's only good for beginners to practice power generation.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 12, 2019)

I would say it’s actually good for EVERYONE to practice power generation.  That needs constant polishing and refining.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 12, 2019)

isshinryuronin said:


> To repeat:  The main reason for chambering the hand, at least in original karate kata, is that it represents pulling the opponent into a strike with the other hand.  There is a lot of grabbing and pulling in traditional Okinawan karate.  Other than that, it's only good for beginners to practice power generation.


I'm aware.  I was asking kenpomaster specifically since it seemed like he might have had another use for it.


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