# Muye Dobo Tongji - Am I missing something?



## MBuzzy (Mar 2, 2007)

I have the Muye Dobe Tongji translated by Sang H Kim printed by Turtle Press.  The version I have is almost completely based on weapons.  This contradicts what I have heard about the contents though.  Am I missing something or are the extractions that others have made more cryptic and hidden within the weapons forms and explanations?


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## Ninjamom (Mar 2, 2007)

No, the translation you have is correct.  The MDTJ gives an overview of training in 23 weapons/tactics types, and only one empty-handed style.  From what I understand, the MDTJ was not a detailed instruction manual, although the notes at the start of each chapter give excellent insight into the history and culture of the time.  To me, it appears more to be a drill manual to familiarize CGOs with drills with different weapons, to allow them to oversee training exercises. (Think "Marine Corp Manual of Arms" - no one really 'fights' this way, but you go through the discipline, training, familiarity with your weapon, and you can perform any task in it blindfolded if needed)

And yes, many people refer to the MDTJ as a source for techniques in their Korean martial art, without it really being so.


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## MBuzzy (Mar 2, 2007)

So how about the claims that Hwang Kee translated certain forms, such as Yuk Ro out of the MDT?  Are these there, but hidden?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 3, 2007)

Those forms are interpretations of one or two moves in the book.  Then, he expanded on those moves and filled in with lots of others.  Tae Kyun was a particularly important source.  

If you get a chance to see Hwa Soo, then you'll really see the moves in the book brought to life.


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## exile (Mar 3, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I have the Muye Dobe Tongji translated by Sang H Kim printed by Turtle Press.  The version I have is almost completely based on weapons.  This contradicts what I have heard about the contents though.  Am I missing something or are the extractions that others have made more cryptic and hidden within the weapons forms and explanations?



What you also have to remember, MB, is that, as Dakin Burdick points out in his 1997 article on the history of KMAs in _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_, the MDT is almost _identical_ in content to the _Jixiao Xinshu_ (`New Book for Effective Discipline' is the charmingly ominous translation) by the Chinese General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587), written two and a half centuries earlier. The `author' of the MDT carried out a major translation and transliteration project, obviously, but one which, as Burdick notes, would have been well within his abilities, since he was `a scholar famed for his erudition in classical Chinese'. What you're looking at is a Korean edition of a major Chinese military manual, reflecting the almost total dependence of the Korean arts of the time on Chinese sources, as pointed out and documented by Burdick, Stanley Henning (in a 2000 _JAMA_ article), and a number of other authors. There is virtually no significant connection between the MDT on the one hand and even 19th c. KMAs on the other, let along the 20th c. situation...


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## MBuzzy (Mar 3, 2007)

I had no idea of the link between the Chinese texts and the MDT.  Right now, I'm just looking for as much information as I can get.  This seems like a "must read" in the Korean Martial Arts world.  If nothing else than just to get more history of MA in general!

I actually found the word Yuk Ro in the text once...that made me feel a little better!    Thanks very much for the help!


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## exile (Mar 3, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I had no idea of the link between the Chinese texts and the MDT.  Right now, I'm just looking for as much information as I can get.  This seems like a "must read" in the Korean Martial Arts world.  If nothing else than just to get more history of MA in general!
> 
> I actually found the word Yuk Ro in the text once...that made me feel a little better!    Thanks very much for the help!



There are two very good sources&#8212;three, actually&#8212;for KMA history in its relation to classical Asian MAs and its subsequent development in the 20th c. There are the two _Journal of Asian Martial Arts_ articles I mentioned (the Burdick article and Stanley Henning's article, which also gives a close look at the weapons techs in the MDT and compares them to the extant Chinese arts of several hundred years earlier); and then there's also a modified and extended version of Burdick's _JAMA_ article available at 

http://budosportcapelle.nl/gesch.html

which expands on some of the material from the earlier article in important ways.

Like you, I'm always on the lookout for more info on the documentable history of the KMAs, and long for the day when that hoped-for book-length treatment of this very complex and somewhat frustrating topic finally appears...


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## Chizikunbo (Mar 11, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> I had no idea of the link between the Chinese texts and the MDT. Right now, I'm just looking for as much information as I can get. This seems like a "must read" in the Korean Martial Arts world. If nothing else than just to get more history of MA in general!
> 
> I actually found the word Yuk Ro in the text once...that made me feel a little better!  Thanks very much for the help!


 
In regards to GM Hwang Kee, it is said that his Chil Sung series was inspired by the Chil Sung descriptions in the MYDBTJ, and was supposed to be a culmination of his knowledge of the arts. The Yuk Rho were his interpretations based on the knowledge presented in the MYDBTJ, whereas the Hwa Sun hyung was a direct translation of the Kwon Bop Bo form, or so it is said. 
I have some speculation that Hwang Kee was inspired and reminded of his training in china under Yang Kuk Jin, maybe recognized the phrases and names of certain postures etc in the MYDBTJ, and expounded on what was in the book, and what was in his mind ;-)
Hope that helps,
--josh


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