# Forgiveness vs Settling the Score



## Chrisinmd (Jul 8, 2020)

So do you prefer forgiveness or Settling the Score for people who have treated you bad or done you wrong in some way?

I know a lot of people say forgiveness sets you free and benefits yourself. But when I think of some wrong things people have done to me I feel I need to get revenge and settle the score. Im also an atheist so I certainly dont think they will get punished in the next life and no God or anything is going to even the score for me. So to settle the score you have to get revenge yourself.


P.S. By the way im not planning on hurting anyone just a asking a hypothetical question on the way everyone looks at the situation


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## drop bear (Jul 9, 2020)

Forgiveness is a bit more productive. Because you are focusing your energy on yourself rather than some random duche bag that did whatever thing.


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## Headhunter (Jul 9, 2020)

Settle the score......real world isn’t a movie if you try and “settle the score “ you'll probably end up Locked up. If the person has done something illegal to you then get the police involved if they’ve just hurt your feelings suck it up and move on.


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## jobo (Jul 9, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> So do you prefer forgiveness or Settling the Score for people who have treated you bad or done you wrong in some way?
> 
> I know a lot of people say forgiveness sets you free and benefits yourself. But when I think of some wrong things people have done to me I feel I need to get revenge and settle the score. Im also an atheist so I certainly dont think they will get punished in the next life and no God or anything is going to even the score for me. So to settle the score you have to get revenge yourself.
> 
> ...


  IT rather depends, on who and what they have done.. some times its impossible to equal it up, because  what they did is so bad or you never get the opportunity.

they may not get punished in heaven, but some times life punishes them, by someone doing something to them, they may not see the connection, but you might..

other times life delivers them up for you, and it would be rude not to. i do have a grudge list, and keep ticking people off as the opportunity arises, i cancelled someones very lucrative transport contract, when i found out they were working for a company i was a director of, over a girlfriend dispute in the mid 80s, the problem is he didn't know it was me, but it made me smile

its not however healthy to spend years burning inside about something that they have forgotten they ever did. if they are a horrible person, the more they know that your still upset about it, the more pleasure they get from it. in that case going on to be happy is in a lot of ways getting even

if i find myself getting gross about some ancient wrong, i channel that into my exercise and turn it into a benefit

i ran into some one a few years ago, that i had a beef with decades before, i was going to beat him up back in 1981, but he got ran over, whilst i was chasing him, so i let it go

45 years later, i bumped into him and he still had a festering grudge, he decided he was now going to even the score and punched me, so i beat him up, that was 45 years in the planning and he lost, that must be hard to take


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## dvcochran (Jul 9, 2020)

I will take a swing at this. Full disclosure, I am Not an atheist. I will do my best to leave religion out of the answer.
I have learned over many years just how much practicality and common sense apply to things like this. All too often people react based on an emotion without thinking about the outcome. The single most important thing to do, especially when controversy is involved, is to stop and think through to the Result of an action Fully to the end. Looking at an action is the only way to figure out if doing it is worth it. Let's try some 'for example' scenarios.

Lets say the person who slights you is your boss or superior in something you do for enjoyment (aka family), or the loan officer at the bank you use for the home loan you are trying to get. 'Settling the score' could be very, very counter-productive to most or all the other areas of your daily life. Instead, showing them that you have 'big shoulders' and can handle a little emotional adversity is a much better way to handle things and keep life moving forward.  

Lets say the person is a total stranger or casual acquaintance. If you barely know them or may never see them again isn't 'settling the score' a tremendous waste of your energy and personal resources? For me this falls into the character category. Most all of the old sayings still apply in today's society but their use is not en vogue. 
Being the bigger person has some of the best healing/maintaining properties for a persons emotions I can think of. Instead of setting around stewing about what you see as a slight or offense, just move on with the productive parts of your life. Everyone should be busy enough to have something to do more pressing than fuming about someone else's actions. 

Hopefully Simon will chime in on the post. Some of the best philosophy I have ever read.


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## Steve (Jul 9, 2020)

Why does it have to be one or the other?  I've never understood this false dilemma.   

There's a middle ground here, where you don't forgive the slight, but you also don't try to get even.  Someone cuts you off on the road.  You don't have to forgive that person, and in fact you might think they're a genuine, grade A, bona fide ******* based on the way they drive.  But you can do that without racing up in front of them and cutting them off to get them back.  You don't even have to give them the finger.


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## Patience (Jul 9, 2020)

Will they do the same thing and hurt someone else in the future? As in, really hurt them physically, financially, or otherwise? Then settling the score might have a good outcome. Otherwise, if they've only hurt your feelings... don't be a snowflake.


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## Buka (Jul 9, 2020)

The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend.

If that doesn't work - sneak up on him in the dark after establishing an alibi.


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## dvcochran (Jul 9, 2020)

Patience said:


> Will they do the same thing and hurt someone else in the future? As in, really hurt them physically, financially, or otherwise? Then settling the score might have a good outcome. Otherwise, if they've only hurt your feelings... don't be a snowflake.


Fully agree with the snowflake inference. I can't follow the 'what if' logic though. We would run ourselves ragged if we applied it to everything in the course of the average day.


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## dvcochran (Jul 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend.
> 
> If that doesn't work - sneak up on him in the dark after establishing an alibi.


I guess I am not good enough of a person to go that far. I just try to think little of it and apply the 'water off a ducks back' quote. 
I had a boss once who went out of their way to try and make everyone like him. He had came out of the teaching field and was not very good at engineering in application. One day a group of us were talking about a project issue and after he said some ingratiating comment I looked at him and said "I don't have to like you to do a good job for you". Hung him up. He brought this up to me for weeks afterward. All I could say to him was that I was just stating fact and did not mean anything by it. I honestly think he never figured that out.


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## _Simon_ (Jul 9, 2020)

Warning, long post!

It's a great question, and to me it's not so much that one is right and one is wrong, but each lead to different consequences within yourself.

But moreso the important thing I reckon is where it is coming from. 'Settling the score' and 'forgiveness' are coming from two different levels of consciousness.

Settling the score there's an inherent belief that the other person deserves it, but it's moreso the 'juice' that you get out of it which drives it. The juice of righteousness is a really sticky one.. and it's what many people are addicted to as a lifestyle. The ego (in spiritual parlance and meaning, not the psychological one) loves nothing more than to be right.

The level of consciousness which needs to 'settle the score' comes from a place of belief in punishment, and it's actually a way of them punishing themselves, because you're giving reality to the idea that you were a victim. Btw this isn't at all saying that criminals etc don't need to be jailed and we should all forgive and la-di-da let's all hold a hands and travel the rainbow journey haha.. that's the appropriate response to keep citizens safe and potentially bring about some level of ownership for and honesty for the person about the crime. I'm talking about the inner world, rather than a utopian world ideal.

Settling the score there's a belief in there that not only IS there a score to be settled, but that doing so will make you safe, happy, fulfilled. It's driven by an energy of vengefulness, aggression and antagonism.

Forgiveness comes about only through willingness to let go of the juice of being right. Because you see through that need, and see that being right never fulfils you. 

You're essentially releasing energy of the 'past', freeing yourself of it and subsequently your feeling and sense of freedom emerges as you realise this can be genuine way of living.

It has a simplicity to it, but doesn't make it easy haha... The reinforcement of certain habits can take a bit to break down... but only a little willingness is necessary.

Forgiveness realised and admits that the human being is fallible, and not perfect. It requires an inner honesty. And alot of people think that forgiveness is you forgiving truth, but forgiveness actually relates to error. You're forgiving/overlooking the other person's perception, and also your own. Understanding that people are simply operating from their perceptual worldview, and you're forgiving that, and more importantly you forgive that within yourself. You look beyond error and you don't make it real.

"Forgive them, for they know not what they do", is seriously profound and really encapsulates that.

And the person who mistreated you actually feels the pain, and will experience the consequences daily as to what lifestyle they lead. Call it karma or whatever (which isn't a reward/punishment system in my understanding, but simply sequential and natural consequence). In other words, chances are the people that go around intentionally harming others are harming themselves on an exponentially far greater level, and may feel tortured and unloved every single day, until there comes a time of willingness where they don't want to do that anymore to themselves. And by committing yourself to certain lifestyles you naturally attract situations which will bring up facing that directly, to either reinforce it or transcend it.

But this doesn't mean you are naive and don't call other people up on their stuff (from how you currently understand it). Accountability and responsibility I think are still incredibly important. It's just letting go of the juice of righteousness, realising everyone is doing their best at any given time with how they see the world and others, and how people treat others is a reflection of how they see and treat themselves on some level.

Forgiveness is actually more to benefit yourself. It releases you from that person/situation, and releases the world from your imposition of needing to be in the right. Which actually lightens and helps the world.

And another thing to add is that some have a very strange view of forgiveness... and actually use it AS a tool of righteousness. That: "I'm willing to forgive you as you did did evil." Forgiveness can be used as a weapon of judgement, whereas it's true purpose is to release you from judgement.

Just all food for thought!

Some great quotes from a teacher I follow David Hawkins:

"Compassion and forgiveness do not mean approval."

"The willingness to forgive others is reflected in our own capacity for self-forgiveness and acceptance."

"From previous studies, it was learned that everyone is born under optimal conditions for karmic opportunities; therefore, it is wise to judge not, for what appears as misery or catastrophe may be the doorway to liberation for those who have negative karma to undo. Thus, seemingly catastrophic events may be the very essential and necessary elements for the evolution of the soul."

"Guilt is the consequence of the memory of regretted past actions as they are recalled. These can be transcended only by recontextualization. Mistakes are the natural, impersonal consequence of learning and development and therefore unavoidable."

"The past cannot be rewritten, but it can be recontextualized so as to be a source of constructive learning. Regret over past events or decisions can be ameliorated by realizing that they ‘seemed like a good idea at the time’."


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## Steve (Jul 9, 2020)

_Simon_ said:


> Warning, long post!
> 
> It's a great question, and to me it's not so much that one is right and one is wrong, but each lead to different consequences within yourself.
> 
> ...


Personally, what you call forgiveness, I would refer to as resilience.


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## _Simon_ (Jul 9, 2020)

Steve said:


> Personally, what you call forgiveness, I would refer to as resilience.


Yeah for sure, I could see that 

Depends on context and application but yeah I see what you mean in a way.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 9, 2020)

Buka said:


> The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend.



That's backfired on me a couple times. Either the person is one of those that either hates or loves you and gets too attached to me, or they continue to be my enemy in secret and just fake being my friend. Which sometimes I catch, sometimes I don't. 

I've learned just to disengage from them and not worry what they say/do unless it's actually harming someone physically or otherwise.


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## Flying Crane (Jul 9, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's backfired on me a couple times. Either the person is one of those that either hates or loves you and gets too attached to me, or they continue to be my enemy in secret and just fake being my friend. Which sometimes I catch, sometimes I don't.
> 
> I've learned just to disengage from them and not worry what they say/do unless it's actually harming someone physically or otherwise.


I agree. When somebody crosses the line and I find them intolerable, I just no longer make room for them in my life.  Let it go.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 10, 2020)

Buka said:


> The best way to get rid of an enemy is to make him a friend.
> 
> If that doesn't work - sneak up on him in the dark after establishing an alibi.



Not sure why I would want to make a friend out of someone who has hurt me intent intentionally?  Maybe pretend to be there friend to get close to exact revenge.  

If some has hurt you and caused you life long emotional problems I dont think you can forgive.    Im thinking of cases where there is actual abuse.  Such as being in a relationship where you are being abused or severe physical bullying.  

In those case i like your second sugggestion of "If that doesn't work - sneak up on him in the dark after establishing an alibi."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> Not sure why I would want to make a friend out of someone who has hurt me intent intentionally?  Maybe pretend to be there friend to get close to exact revenge.
> 
> If some has hurt you and caused you life long emotional problems I dont think you can forgive.    Im thinking of cases where there is actual abuse.  Such as being in a relationship where you are being abused or severe physical bullying.
> 
> In those case i like your second sugggestion of "If that doesn't work - sneak up on him in the dark after establishing an alibi."


You can forgive anything. With my former clients a lot of the time, I would actually argue that in abusive relationships/PTSD/bullying, they didn't get better a lot of the time until after they forgave. Exacting revenge has helped some of them feel better in the moment, but never actually improved their mental health long term, and generally would just end up with more troubles down the line.

Also quick disclaimer, I'm 100% sure Buka was joking about sneaking up on the person in the dark. Does not sound at all like him, and not good advice to follow.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> So do you prefer forgiveness or Settling the Score for people who have treated you bad or done you wrong in some way?
> 
> I know a lot of people say forgiveness sets you free and benefits yourself. But when I think of some wrong things people have done to me I feel I need to get revenge and settle the score. Im also an atheist so I certainly dont think they will get punished in the next life and no God or anything is going to even the score for me. So to settle the score you have to get revenge yourself.
> 
> ...


If you're focused on settling the score, then you're holding resentments towards them. If you forgive them, you can stop letting them take up space in your mind and move on. It's an incredibly tough thing to do, but it helps.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You can forgive anything. With my former clients a lot of the time, I would actually argue that in abusive relationships/PTSD/bullying, they didn't get better a lot of the time until after they forgave. Exacting revenge has helped some of them feel better in the moment, but never actually improved their mental health long term, and generally would just end up with more troubles down the line.
> 
> Also quick disclaimer, I'm 100% sure Buka was joking about sneaking up on the person in the dark. Does not sound at all like him, and not good advice to follow.





Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> If you're focused on settling the score, then you're holding resentments towards them. If you forgive them, you can stop letting them take up space in your mind and move on. It's an incredibly tough thing to do, but it helps.



Want to make a quick clarification here. My posts are in regards to people doing serious things to you, like the relationship abuse/severe physical bullying you referred to. There's no reason to go around forgiving everyone of every little thing..like steve said if someone cuts me off, I'll be pissed off at them, I'm not going through the mental effort to forgive them, but I'm also not going to speed up to cut them off back. Same thing if someone says a derogatory word about me, or closes the elevator doors while I'm waiting to get on.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 10, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You can forgive anything. With my former clients a lot of the time, I would actually argue that in abusive relationships/PTSD/bullying, they didn't get better a lot of the time until after they forgave.
> Also quick disclaimer, I'm 100% sure Buka was joking about sneaking up on the person in the dark. Does not sound at all like him, and not good advice to follow.



Are you a counselor or therapist I would assume from your post?  Good to get advice from a trained pro.  I agree forgiving may make you feel better in the long term and may help you mentally.    But it bothers me to let the abuser just go on with life happily while your suffering with the aftermath such as PTSD.  Not fair but then again life is certainly not fair at all!

I agree Buka was most likely speaking in jest.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 10, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> Are you a counselor or therapist I would assume from your post?  Good to get advice from a trained pro.  I agree forgiving may make you feel better in the long term and may help you mentally.    But it bothers me to let the abuser just go on with life happily while your suffering with the aftermath such as PTSD.  Not fair but then again life is certainly not fair at all!
> 
> I agree Buka was most likely speaking in jest.


Yup. Although this is *not* professional advice, or advice for your situation. Just what I've gathered as a result of my experiences/profession. And you're right, it's not fair. But you've got to either accept life/the universe isn't fair and you can only do so much to change that, or believe life/the universe is fair (karma, god, etc.) and let it take control.


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## donald1 (Jul 10, 2020)

You pray to the gods of karma to mess them up! May the gods strike my enemies with the effects of 10,000 curses at once. May they truly regret their decision to cross me... If that doesn't work get a gun. Go down to the gun range. Follow all safety rules and regulations ,and get some good practice in to let off some steam. Cause let's be honest. Busting their knee caps with a baseball bat, and leaving them with no clothes miles out into the desert is illegal. You don't have to like the person who did you wrong. You don't even have to forgive them. Just let it go. Dont be a vindictive idiot. Get help. Let cops and lawyers worry about legal issues. It's bad for your health baby. Stop stressing out, And be happy.


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## Steve (Jul 10, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> Are you a counselor or therapist I would assume from your post?  Good to get advice from a trained pro.  I agree forgiving may make you feel better in the long term and may help you mentally.    *But it bothers me to let the abuser just go on with life happily *while your suffering with the aftermath such as PTSD.  Not fair but then again life is certainly not fair at all!
> 
> I agree Buka was most likely speaking in jest.


This is the part that I think would be particularly toxic.  A lot of people keep score, and I think keeping score leads to settling scores, and all of that is entirely unproductive.  Someone does something bad and gets away with it... happens all the time.  You play a slot machine and dump $20 bucks and win nothing, you get up, and the next guy wins $1k.  Cool.  I've got plenty and I'm happy.

On the larger topic, while I don't keep score, I think I just approach this entire area differently.  After thinking about this for a few days, I think I tend to categorize folks in a few ways.  There are people on my **** list.  A couple of you are on there, and will be for a long time.   Then there are people whom I don't trust.  Doesn't mean I'm mad at them or anything... I just don't trust them.  They've done something along the way that leads me to question their sincerity or integrity.  So, if someone is sneaky and gets ahead in a way that I think is questionable, I won't resent their success, but I won't be naive and trust them to work with me in good faith, either.


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## Buka (Jul 10, 2020)

Jest? Moi?




On the wall of my old dojo was this.....



Below it was written, "If that doesn't work, try a hopping sidekick."

As for sneaking up behind someone in the dark, I wouldn't do that. I don't have to.

Do you know what Italian Althimzers is? We forget everything except a grudge.


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## Chrisinmd (Jul 11, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yup. Although this is *not* professional advice, or advice for your situation. Just what I've gathered as a result of my experiences/profession. And you're right, it's not fair. But you've got to either accept life/the universe isn't fair and you can only do so much to change that, or believe life/the universe is fair (karma, god, etc.) and let it take control.



Very wise words.  So how does one get over bad memories of things that have been done to you in the past?  I guess what I have heard is mindfullness and living in the present moment.  But that seems difficult to me this stuff just seems to pop into my head.  Probaly have PTSD or something.  I was diagnosed with a anxiety disorder


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jul 11, 2020)

Chrisinmd said:


> Very wise words.  So how does one get over bad memories of things that have been done to you in the past?  I guess what I have heard is mindfullness and living in the present moment.  But that seems difficult to me this stuff just seems to pop into my head.  Probaly have PTSD or something.  I was diagnosed with a anxiety disorder


Meet up with a therapist and go over your issues with them. I could only give you generic answers on here that may or may not help you, especially not knowing what's going on (and don't tell me-my advice will still be go see a therapist)


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## Brian King (Jul 12, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Meet up with a therapist and go over your issues with them. I could only give you generic answers on here that may or may not help you, especially not knowing what's going on (and don't tell me-my advice will still be go see a therapist)



Awesome advice. I have seen therapists help many people gain insight and clarity as well as develop useful tools and strategies. Not all therapists are equal and not all therapies apply - @Monkey Turned Wolf  - might you be able to suggest a web site or reference that points out different types of therapies and therapists that someone like Chrisinmd or others might be able to look thru for ideas and perhaps a map of a path forward?

Regards
Brian King


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## Patience (Jul 14, 2020)

There is forgiveness, and then there's moving on. Some people define forgiveness as moving on, and if you look up the definition, that's what it will tell you - to cease having resentment toward someone, and such. In my mind, and maybe because I don't have another word for it, "forgiveness" means you are ok with the person and it's like the thing they did to you didn't happen - you've totally said "we're good" and you honestly feel that way, and you carry on with your relationship. I can move on and not let the offense take up any mind-share in my head without forgiving. If someone does me wrong, I let them know and then they don't get any more of my energy, attention, or time. I don't think about them; I don't hate them. I just don't care any more about them or what happens to them or what they do or say or whatever. If I decide (key words here being "I decide" - we all have control over what we decide and how we react) that I can't forgive what they did, then that has nothing to do with my moving on. Forgiveness has to do with my relationship with them. Moving on has to do only with me, not them. In my life, I have both forgiven, and moved on. Not usually the same people, though.


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