# Real Self Defense



## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2009)

Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.

Well thought I would share.


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## Haze (Apr 9, 2009)

I think most of us teach practical self defense but what I see that is not taught or experienced in many schools is the aspect of trying to apply these tactics against a non-compliant partner.

I find that this is the biggest factor most "RBSD" guys bring up when addressing what they refer to as traditional arts.


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## Drac (Apr 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.
> 
> Well thought I would share.


 
Father Greek just had an experience with a gentleman that allegedly teaches REAL SELF DEFENSE....I will ask him to post...


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## exile (Apr 9, 2009)

Kinda pathetic, really. 

There are only so many things you need to be able to do, technically, to have 'real self-defense' skills. The real trick is getting people to train in those to the point where they become immediately accessible in an attack situation. If you have the right combination of locking/controlling and striking tools available, there are very few RL attack initiations you won't have the technique sets to handle.... but can you _apply_ them when push, literally, comes to shove? That's not something you need some huckster coming in to sell to you, if you're a school owner. There's now a lot of information available on 'high-intensity' street-realistic training methods, and someone like you, who's seen it all, doesn't need this guy's sales pitch... but they just don't get it, _do_ they.


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## jks9199 (Apr 9, 2009)

And let me guess, Terry....

He would have been happy to provide his program for you, in exchange for a certain amount of cash.  Maybe it'd be via a "certification course" or licensing fees for teaching his program at your school... 

Didn't you realize that you were hurting martial arts because you cut into his bottom line?


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## just2kicku (Apr 9, 2009)

Wow, the arrogance of some people never cease to amaze me. To walk in someone elses house and do something like that either takes a set of balls or just plain stupidity.

I think that as long as a school teaches basics, then you're teaching practical SD. Cause when it comes down to it, most will always go back to basics.


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## kidswarrior (Apr 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, *when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.*


So if you say 'No thanks' to the product he's selling, he gets mad and insulting? Not a very good salesman. The snake oil hustlers give the MAs a far worse black eye than any honest instructor/club owner. 

BTW, where'd this rocket scientist come up with the precise number 98.5? Pretty specific. I'd like to see his research. :uhyeah:


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## MJS (Apr 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.
> 
> Well thought I would share.


 
This sounds like someone who thinks that they have the market cornered on SD.  Gotta love those people, and we've seen some right here on MT, who claim to have the new and improved, etc.

Now, IMHO, I don't think that the RBSD guys of today, ie: Peyton Quinn, Sammy Franco, Geoff Thompson, etc. are bad guys, and IMO, they have alot to offer and bring up alot of good points.  I think alot of the times, when we hear claims of this or that is better, its not so much that its anything new per se, but how its applied.

Every art out there has locks, kicks, punches, etc., but some may go about applying the principles differently.  I'm guessing that this guy is probably stereotyping TKD.  He saw one TKD school and assumed that all TKD is the same.  IMO, its not the art, but the person.


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## astrobiologist (Apr 9, 2009)

It was not honorable of this man to insult you in your school.  He was in the wrong.  Regardless of what he thinks, it sounds like the way he went about it was disrespectful.  

My hat's off to you for keeping your cool.


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 9, 2009)

I have seen ome pretty ineffectual SD practices (one relied soley on pinching people), but 98.5% seems a little high for me. I'd say more like 30% and that's a vague meaningless guess.


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## exile (Apr 9, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> I have seen ome pretty ineffectual SD practices (one relied soley on pinching people), but 98.5% seems a little high for me. I'd say more like 30% and that's a vague meaningless guess.



Didn't one of our membersKreth?have a custom tag line to the effect that "87.5% of all statistics are made up on the spur of the moment"?  It's hysterical that the guy is implying that he's actually sat in on enough different MA school classes and surveyed them carefully enough to have a supposedly robust number like that to stick in people's faces. Guy sounds truly, uh,  _dedicated_....


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## BLACK LION (Apr 9, 2009)

If he really had some worthwhile expertise and tools, he would not be going door to door imposing anyhting.  He would forge his own training in his own sector.  Sounds like a bum to me... one of those kinds that jumps on your car while spraying and whiping it down then demands for some change or some compensation when they were not asked or promted to begin with.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Apr 9, 2009)

Haze said:


> I think most of us teach practical self defense but what I see that is not taught or experienced in many schools is the aspect of trying to apply these tactics against a non-compliant partner.
> 
> I find that this is the biggest factor most "RBSD" guys bring up when addressing what they refer to as traditional arts.



That pretty much hits the nail on the coffin. Sports MA guys and RBSD guys often use that as validification that TMA schools don't teach effective SD. And to be honest, I have seen a number of schools (in some styles more than others), where the SD is composed of one and two step "sparrig" and the attacker falls over with the minimum of effort. In the case of the OP's encounter however, I'm thinking that the "door-to-door" tactics of the so called SD instructor seem rather bogus.


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2009)

Drac said:


> Father Greek just had an experience with a gentleman that allegedly teaches REAL SELF DEFENSE....I will ask him to post...


 
I would love to hear the story.


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2009)

jks9199 said:


> And let me guess, Terry....
> 
> He would have been happy to provide his program for you, in exchange for a certain amount of cash. Maybe it'd be via a "certification course" or licensing fees for teaching his program at your school...
> 
> Didn't you realize that you were hurting martial arts because you cut into his bottom line?


 

We never did to that point.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Apr 9, 2009)

Wow, some people.


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## Joab (Apr 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D.,
> Joab: Implying you don't teach real S.D.? Rude!
> 
> now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold.
> ...


 
Thanks for sharing, sorry you had to put up with this jerk.


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## Deaf Smith (Apr 9, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.
> 
> Well thought I would share.


 
Terry, it may have just to do with the economy. They need income and well they feel you are in the way of that when you reject their idea of adding their 'system' to yours.

As the economy gets worse, exepect more dog-eat-dog thinking.

Deaf


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## Guardian (Apr 9, 2009)

I'm sure for $29.95, he can make your program a real self-defense program they all can and he'll thrown in a 2nd real self-defense program for free at that price.

I love those type of folks.


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## terryl965 (Apr 9, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Terry, it may have just to do with the economy. They need income and well they feel you are in the way of that when you reject their idea of adding their 'system' to yours.
> 
> As the economy gets worse, exepect more dog-eat-dog thinking.
> 
> Deaf


 
You know Deaf you are probaly right


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## sgtmac_46 (Apr 10, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.
> 
> Well thought I would share.



'Break the WRIST!  And walk away.....'


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## Drac (Apr 10, 2009)

Hey Terry...How old was this guy???


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## exile (Apr 10, 2009)

sgtmac_46 said:


> 'Break the WRIST!  And walk away.....'



Once you've got control of the wrist, their hearts and minds will follow...


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## terryl965 (Apr 10, 2009)

Drac said:


> Hey Terry...How old was this guy???


 
Late Twenties early thirties. Young and cocky. I love then the best.


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## Drac (Apr 10, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Late Twenties early thirties. Young and cocky. I love them the best.


 
LOL...Young and dumb and looking for never mind...


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## terryl965 (Apr 10, 2009)

Drac said:


> LOL...Young and dumb and looking for never mind...


 
Yea I was thinking the same thing.


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## Phoenix44 (Apr 11, 2009)

> wrist breaks and joint manipulation


 
These require a fair amount of skill and fine motor coordination.  I personally don't see these as basic, essential self-defense techniques to be used by the average person in an emergency.


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## chinto (Apr 12, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> Last night at my school a gentleman came in and was talking to me about his program of the real deal S.D., now I am a person that tells people we teach practicular S.D. and stuff. At anyrate he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold. The problem is most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense, when I explain this is stuff we already do he got mad and said it is people like me that cannot see beyond my own two eyes that really hurts the MA of today.
> 
> Well thought I would share.



LOL same kind that thinks that the UFC is the way that real fights happen and well that they come in singles and with a ref and lights and a mat..

some people have no clue.


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## searcher (Apr 13, 2009)

Though I have not seen this type of "sales" approach a bunch here in the boonies, I do see it with equipment sales for our gym.    Many a people think that because you are not living in a major city, you must be a bumpkin with little common sense.

And Deaf is right, it is going to get worse as the $$$ becomes harder to get.


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 13, 2009)

Phoenix44 said:


> These require a fair amount of skill and fine motor coordination. I personally don't see these as basic, essential self-defense techniques to be used by the average person in an emergency.


 
I think he ment it as a joke, it sounds like a quote from the rex kwan do guy in napolean dynamite, but I could be mistaken.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Apr 13, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> ....he went on to say that 98.5% of schools out there are like me teaching unrealistic S.D. to the general program and he could put in his Real Life S.D. and increase my sales by two fold.
> 
> ..... most of what he teaches is basic wrist breaks and joint manipulation as well as hit and get out type of defense,


 
The biggest problem that I see with people like this, both in the in-person pitch as well as the advertisements in magazines, is that they focus on the body of techniques.

To be fair, that it the only way to market your system.  As an entrepreneur, you cannot supply 240 pound noncompliant goons for your customers' students to spar with and since you are selling a system to *someone else* to teach, you cannot provide any real in depth training. 

So it always comes down to the body of techniques.  You bank on most of the TKD schools being sport focused or fitness focused, and canvas all of the TKD schools in the area.  Chances are, most of them will not have these techniques in their curriculum, so they are your best bet: the staff may already know these techniques and be happy to have a 'new' certifiation to put on the wall essentially for material that they already know.

So you sell your system to the local TKD schools.  Then what?  

They all have wrist locks, sweeps and takedowns now.  But is their ability to protect themselves _really_ realistic?

Probably not.  Not only is there the lack of noncompliance, but there are all those things that go into self defense that fall _outside_ the body of martial technique.

1) How do you walk in such a way as to not look like a victim?
2) How do you gauge when the situation is going to turn violent no matter how much money you give the mugger?
3) What should you look out for and do when you head to your car in a parking garage?
4) How can you tell if the bystanders who look like tough guys are henchmen of this person who is aggressively demanding money from you under the guise of panhandling?
5) How can you tell if an aggressive panhandler is really just chatting you up to rob you?

There are a million other things that could be added to that list, and none of them have anything to do with the techniques to break an opponent.  These things are not part of the standard fare of most martial arts schools, traditional or not.  

And these are things that are more challenging to teach than wristlocks and sweeps.  These things are changes in mindset and observational habits.  And if you yourself have no firsthand experience with muggers or rough parts of town, how do you impart these lessons that you yourself have never had to personally learn?

These are the things that you will not find from these fast buck salesmen.  All the fast buck salesman has done is take some basic sweeps and locks that can be effective in an SD scenario and packaged them into a curriculum or para-curriclum product.  

Kudos for being proactive.  
Boos for being unoriginal and less than thorough.

Kudos to Terry for keeping his cool and putting up with this clown.

Daniel


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## Aiki Lee (Apr 14, 2009)

Yes, a realistic self-defense program should thouroughly explain how to identify threats, and how to get out of them before the danger starts. The physical self-defense should revolve around easy to remember principles that could allow a person to escape such as hitting high and low, or other simple tactics that a person not interested in martial training should be able to remember.

Wrist locks and joint manipulations are effective, _if they train consistantly to be able to use them, _but IMO they probably shouldn't be taught in SD seminars. Instead I believe one should focus on how to knock somebody down, not lock them up.


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## ninaJe.024 (Apr 23, 2009)

A few years ago I joined a self-defense class because I am of the opinion that it is especially for women important that they know how they could possibly defend themselves. I bound to say that I felt safer after finishing the class. Another thing what I consider as important is to recall the different techniques in order to do not forget them at all.


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