# Kickboxing vs Taekwondo



## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Hello everyone.

My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE ?

ITF TAEKWONDO or KICKBOXING ?


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

Oh goodie, another style v style thread. 

Could you perhaps elaborate a bit rather than try to start a flame war? Are you looking for advice or to giving it? Do you think either or them are good for self defence or neither? What are you looking for here in the way of conversation?


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Oh goodie, another style v style thread.
> 
> Could you perhaps elaborate a bit rather than try to start a flame war? Are you looking for advice or to giving it? Do you think either or them are good for self defence or neither? What are you looking for here in the way of conversation?



I simply want to know what is better for self-defense. I am not flaming at all, I am new to this forum and came here to discuss things like this.

I did kickboxing long ago, but since both martial arts work with legs and hands, but kickboxing seems a bit more aggressive, I asked myself, what would bring me further in a real situation ?


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I simply want to know what is better for self-defense. I am not flaming at all, I am new to this forum and came here to discuss things like this.
> 
> I did kickboxing long ago, but since both martial arts work with legs and hands, but kickboxing seems a bit more aggressive, I asked myself, what would bring me further in a real situation ?




Now you will get the answers you want, any style v style thread is going to disintegrate into an argument I'm afraid but if you say as you have above what you are looking for people can respond better.

The answer by the way is neither lol, try self defence for self defence.


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## Transk53 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I simply want to know what is better for self-defense. I am not flaming at all, I am new to this forum and came here to discuss things like this.
> 
> I did kickboxing long ago, but since both martial arts work with legs and hands, but kickboxing seems a bit more aggressive, I asked myself, what would bring me further in a real situation ?



Just make sure that you have medical insurance lol. Seriously looking for fights. Yeah good luck


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Now you will get the answers you want, any style v style thread is going to disintegrate into an argument I'm afraid but if you say as you have above what you are looking for people can respond better.
> 
> The answer by the way is neither lol, try self defence for self defence.




But this can't be true, I knew many kickboxers who always were pretty sucessful about " streetfights ".

I wouldn't say these lads are guys you would want to hang out with too often, but they were pretty decent kickboxers.


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> But this can't be true, I knew many kickboxers who always were pretty sucessful about " streetfights ".
> 
> I wouldn't say these lads are guys you would want to hang out with too often, but they were pretty decent kickboxers.




Did you see them 'fight' or were they just saying that lol.

I'd say it depends on what you want, it's always useful to be able to punch, kick maybe not so much but it's always going to depend on circumstances. Depends where you live, where you go and what you do as what you think you need in the way of self defence training.
The Bunkai from the kata is very good at giving you techniques for self defence but from what you said before I'm guessing you've not been taught this? Ground skills are usefull though you don't want to be on the floor if you can help it but there's plenty of techniques you can use. Full contact anything ie karate, TKD, kick boxing is useful for knowing how to take a strike and not freeze.

Have you read any of Geoff Thompson's stuff?


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Just make sure that you have medical insurance lol. Seriously looking for fights. Yeah good luck



Well, it says


Tez3 said:


> Did you see them 'fight' or were they just saying that lol.
> 
> I'd say it depends on what you want, it's always useful to be able to punch, kick maybe not so much but it's always going to depend on circumstances. Depends where you live, where you go and what you do as what you think you need in the way of self defence training.
> The Bunkai from the kata is very good at giving you techniques for self defence but from what you said before I'm guessing you've not been taught this? Ground skills are usefull though you don't want to be on the floor if you can help it but there's plenty of techniques you can use. Full contact anything ie karate, TKD, kick boxing is useful for knowing how to take a strike and not freeze.
> ...



I saw it many times and for sure I heard many stories too.

No, I've not done any Kata by now.

No, I am not much in to English-language literacy.


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## Transk53 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Well, it says
> 
> 
> I saw it many times and for sure I heard many stories too.
> ...



Then stick to the PS4 or Xbox 1. No doubt you would do yourself harm with such folly.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Then stick to the PS4 or Xbox 1. No doubt you would do yourself harm with such folly.



Well, they did not really teach us any Katas by now to be honest.

+ I do not even own a PS4 or Xbox ))))


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 2, 2015)

What kind of kickboxing? Muay Thai? Savate? Generic karate with boxing gloves? PKA, WKA, K1 rules?

Honestly, it's going to come down to how you train more than the specific brand of Karate/TKD/Kickboxing you practice. You're learning how to move and strike. How well you can execute that under pressure depends more on the quality of your practice than the style.


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Well, it says
> 
> 
> I saw it many times and for sure I heard many stories too.
> ...




Is English your first language, you spell the American way and I'm thinking you may not know who Geoff is, reading him could well do you as much good if not more than learning self defence.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Normal Kickboxing. 

I see.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Is English your first language, you spell the American way and I'm thinking you may not know who Geoff is, reading him could well do you as much good if not more than learning self defence.



No English is not my first language, in my country we usually learn the " American way " when it comes to written English. But I am slowly getting used to the " proper way " of written English, which is the Britsh way.

No I have not read him, I have books written by similar authors. But thank's for the advise, I will have a look in to it.


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> No English is not my first language, in my country we usually learn the " American way " when it comes to written English. But I am slowly getting used to the " proper way " of written English, which is the Britsh way.
> 
> No I have not read him, I have books written by similar authors. But thank's for the advise, I will have a look in to it.



No worries, I would look at the BCA as well for instruction if it's self defence you want, there's no reason why you can't train anything else as well of course. Some of the very best self defence instructors are listed there.
The British Combat Association Home of Mixed Practical Martial Arts


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Normal Kickboxing.


There really isn't any such animal. It's a generic term used by people with significantly different backgrounds.

It's like saying "normal jujutsu". No one would have any idea what you meant. BJJ? Danzan Ryu? Takenouchi Ryu? They're not at all the same thing.


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## Transk53 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Normal Kickboxing.
> 
> I see.



Depends on normal. TD asked and tbh, perhaps take a little time to answer


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> There really isn't any such animal. It's a generic term used by people with significantly different backgrounds.
> 
> It's like saying "normal jujutsu". No one would have any idea what you meant. BJJ? Danzan Ryu? Takenouchi Ryu? They're not at all the same thing.



Well, where I come from we don't have different styles of Kickboxing! We have Muay-Thai, we have Savate, but all of them are martial arts on it's own, and we also have KICKBOXING. The only differences we have/had are full contact, semi-contact . Somebody who would call Muay-Thai kickboxing over there, would be laughed at, since both are completely different martial arts.

There you go

Einleitung - WAKO Bundesverband

it says, at the beginning it was called " Sport-Karate " now it is called " Kickboxing ". We for sure know K1.


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

This is the same organisation  Kickboxing WAKO GB


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> This is the same organisation  Kickboxing WAKO GB



Thank's for the English version.

However, as you can see Tony, it clearly says KICKBOXING. It does not say that Kickboxing IS Muay-Thai,Savate or whatever, Kickboxing is a martial art on it's own. So me saying Kickboxing was totally right, blamed the wrong guy pal.


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Thank's for the English version.
> 
> However, as you can see Tony, it clearly says KICKBOXING. It does not say that Kickboxing IS Muay-Thai,Savate or whatever, Kickboxing is a martial art on it's own. So me saying Kickboxing was totally right, blamed the wrong guy pal.




Well if you read the page it give the types of kick boxing..........


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Well if you read the page it give the types of kick boxing..........



I know that there are different SORTS, also called Rules Kickboxing fights are followed by. Our Kickboxing club tought us K1 and sometimes not. I've never competed in Kickboxing, so I don't know much about the match-rules.

FACT: Kickboxing is Kickboxing ! Kickboxing is not muay-thai, Kickboxing is not savate, Kickboxing is not taekwondo, Kickboxing is Kickboxing. And yes, there are different rules, same as there is ITF and WTF Taekwondo. Still, both is Taekwondo.


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## Danny T (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE ?
> 
> ITF TAEKWONDO or KICKBOXING ?


If you would please define Self-Defense and describe the situation you are questioning. (there is much more to self defense than punching and kicking)
TKD can certainly be used in some self-defense situations as well as Kickboxing can be but not necessarily all. It is possible that the attributes developed may afford one an advantage in some situations but not in others.
Most martial art training develops very little as to self defense other than fighting situations. Kickboxing is a 'sport' derived aspect of martial art used in competitions and here again, the skills developed can be of help in a physical fight back situations.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

Danny T said:


> If you would please define Self-Defense and describe the situation you are questioning. (there is much more to self defense than punching and kicking)
> TKD can certainly be used in some self-defense situations as well as Kickboxing can be but not necessarily all. It is possible that the attributes developed may afford one an advantage in some situations but not in others.
> Most martial art training develops very little as to self defense other than fighting situations. Kickboxing is a 'sport' derived aspect of martial art used in competitions and here again, the skills developed can be of help in a physical fight back situations.



You walk down the street and a group of 3 people is pushing you around and is invading your personal space and so on forceing you in to a fight.


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## Danny T (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> You walk down the street and a group of 3 people is pushing you around and is invading your personal space and so on forceing you in to a fight.


So self defense is only when you are forced to fight? Are they only using their physical abilities and bodies? Is it just some scary tactics oe do you feel in fear of great bodily injury? Are weapons involved, if so what type? Blunt object, edged, projectile, flexible? Can you leave the situation, can't leave, or are you unwilling to leave? Can the situation be de-escalated or have you attempted to do so? Were you aware of the situation prior to you being involved or has it simple happened? (where are you and why are you there?)

What you describe is a possible fight back situation which can certainly be a form of self defense but there is much more to self-defense than just a fight back situation.


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## marques (Aug 2, 2015)

Don't mix everything. It may help, but SD is absolutely other 'business'.


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## Drose427 (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Thank's for the English version.
> 
> However, as you can see Tony, it clearly says KICKBOXING. It does not say that Kickboxing IS Muay-Thai,Savate or whatever, Kickboxing is a martial art on it's own. So me saying Kickboxing was totally right, blamed the wrong guy pal.


not really,

WAKO has a Muay Thai division I believe.

Even then, wako is the organization that hosts events not the type of kickboxing itself


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> not really,
> 
> 
> 
> Even then, wako is the organization that hosts events not the type of kickboxing itself




It is, I've done a bit reffing for them in the past.


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## Danny T (Aug 2, 2015)

Kickboxing..., isn't this a form of mixed martial arts for striking competition? Didn't kickboxing, the term, come Osamu Noguchi who combined muay thai and karate back in the late 50's? Since then kickboxing has grown to have several different rule sets depending upon the promotion. 
Dutch style Muay Thai is considered kickboxing allowing low leg kicks where early ISKA formats didn't allow them. Dutch style doesn't allow working out of clinch where in Muay Thai clinch is a major part of the game. K-1 and Glory are all kickboxing promotions that today also claim to be Muay Thai.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish, In answer to your question...
"My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE?"

let me ask you some questions.
1. have you been to the Dojang that teaches ITF TaeKwonDo that you seem interested in?
2. have you watched the students sparring, and training for tournaments?
3. If Yes, then when you watched the ITF opponents sparring, do they drop their arms to the side, and almost never punch?
Yes/no
If yes, then they are influenced by the "Kicks give more points then punches" rules of Olympic type TKD.

4. Does training for long periods of time like this have negative consequences?
4b. If you do not train for punching, counterpunching and blocking punches as a TKD practitioner you can develop habits that are not good.

For an example, I will post this:





I will draw your attention to two things in the video. The Karateka pummels with lots of chest punches because this is part of Kumite. Also, the TKD guy doesn't train for knee kicks, and isn't seen using them. What knee kicks that landed on the Karateka, were incomplete full kicks. However, the Karateka definitely uses knee kicks right off the bat.


Now, if the ITF TKD school has people sparring with punches, and kicks, and blocking/counter-punching and counter-kicking, then it would be almost purely what flavor of fighting do you WANT.

5. Now visit your Kickboxing Gym, do they spar with punches, and counter punches?
yes/no

Then the following is true, only by a School/Gym vs School/Gym basis:
If all else is equal, but the punching issue is examined:

If questions 3, and 4 are YES  while 5 is YES then ITF TKD < KB.

If questions 3, and 4 are NO  while 5 is NO then ITF TKD > KB.

If questions 3, and 4 are NO while 5 is YES then ITF TKD = KB.

If questions 3, and 4 are YES  while 5 is NO  then ITF TKD = KB.

The fact is you can only fight in self-defense the way you train for a fight.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 2, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> JohnnyEnglish, In answer to your question...
> "My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE?"
> 
> let me ask you some questions.
> ...




1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. They punch a lot and they have the cover up like a boxer or kickboxer. Nobody there drops his arms, too risky to get knocked out.
4. In my " dojang " we train kicks,punches, do sparring but also learn how to use our elbow,knee, certain grips and throws for self-defense, and we also learn how to use a proper cover, so the face and rips are always or mostly covered.

5. My kickboxing gym spars until someone is knocked out, usually. I don't really what EXACTLY you mean by counter punches, since sparring as I know it, always involves punches and counters, sure. It's sparring mate


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> 1. Yes.
> 2. Yes.
> 3. They punch a lot and they have the cover up like a boxer or kickboxer. Nobody there drops his arms, too risky to get knocked out.
> 4. In my " dojang " we train kicks,punches, do sparring but also learn how to use our elbow,knee, certain grips and throws for self-defense, and we also learn how to use a proper cover, so the face and rips are always or mostly covered.
> ...


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## Tez3 (Aug 2, 2015)

I liked the TKD and karate fight video, obviously they'd been told or agreed not to do head shots. That's a bit of a game changer because it limits what you can use but it was certainly interesting.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I liked the TKD and karate fight video, obviously they'd been told or agreed not to do head shots. That's a bit of a game changer because it limits what you can use but it was certainly interesting.



Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.

Kyokushin Karate rules fighting goes bare knuckle (no gloves whatsoever) because punching is forbidden to the face. Of course, the Muay Thai guy was disadvantaged because he's not used to those rules (notice how he repeatedly punches Andy Hug in the face, it's reflex). 

But Andy is used to both Kyokushin and Muay Thai rules because he was also a three times world champion under Muay Thai rules, however, He constantly leaves his face open, because of his years of training in Kyokushin.







here is a link to the fight.


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## jks9199 (Aug 2, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> What kind of kickboxing? Muay Thai? Savate? Generic karate with boxing gloves? PKA, WKA, K1 rules?
> 
> Honestly, it's going to come down to how you train more than the specific brand of Karate/TKD/Kickboxing you practice. You're learning how to move and strike. How well you can execute that under pressure depends more on the quality of your practice than the style.



Don't forget Lethwei...  and a case could be made that Sanshou is a form of kickboxing...  

As others have said -- the answer is none of them.  And all of them.  If you want to train for self defense, you need to train for self defense, not a fight in the ring.  There are major differences, and those have to be reflected in how you train.  Either approach can give you the technical skills to apply in a self defense setting.  (Of course, you also need to look beyond physical if you're talking self defense... but that's a whole 'nother thread.  Actually, several...)


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## Chrisoro (Aug 2, 2015)

WTF is not a "style" of Taekwondo. It is a sports organization promoting competitions under a specific ruleset, and it doesn't even have a set curriculum nor is it issuing dan degrees. The style of taekwondo featuring pull over doboks with black trim on the collar for black belts, is Kukki Taekwondo, and kukkiwon-alligned schools are extremely free to decide what and how to teach, as long as they teach the standard forms. The result of this, is that Kukkiwon aligned groups range from schools just focusing on WTF competition, to schools not focusing on it at all, and anything in between, including schools which incorporate regular hard sparring with strikes to the head using boxing gloves.

You cannot use a couple videos of a few Kukki-TKD practitioners with a completely unknown background to make sweeping generalizatios of Kukkiwon-alligned schools, in a false WTF vs ITF dichotomy. A few such videos do not constitute a representative sample of practitioners from all the different Kukkiwon-schools, and won't give you any kind of well founded general conclusion on how Kukkiwon aligned schools might fare in self defense or mixed-style competition, as they do not take into consideration the huge diversity in training methods and focus among Kukkiwon-alligned TKD groups and schools. At best, you get an impression of how practitioners without experience outside of sparring within the WTF-competition bubble fares in such situations, which isn't very surprising.


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## drop bear (Aug 2, 2015)

It depends.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> WTF is not a "style" of Taekwondo. It is a sports organization promoting competitions under a specific ruleset, and it doesn't even have a set curriculum nor is it issuing dan degrees. The style of taekwondo featuring pull over doboks with black trim on the collar for black belts, is Kukki Taekwondo, and kukkiwon-alligned schools are extremely free to decide what and how to teach, as long as they teach the standard forms. The result of this, is that Kukkiwon aligned groups range from schools just focusing on WTF competition, to schools not focusing on it at all, and anything in between, including schools which incorporate regular hard sparring with strikes to the head using boxing gloves.
> 
> You cannot use a couple videos of a few Kukki-TKD practitioners with a completely unknown background to make sweeping generalizatios of Kukkiwon-alligned schools, in a false WTF vs ITF dichotomy. A few such videos do not constitute a representative sample of practitioners from all the different Kukkiwon-schools, and won't give you any kind of well founded general conclusion on how Kukkiwon aligned schools might fare in self defense or mixed-style competition, as they do not take into consideration the huge diversity in training methods and focus among Kukkiwon-alligned TKD groups and schools. At best, you get an impression of how practitioners without experience outside of sparring within the WTF-competition bubble fares in such situations, which isn't very surprising.



Who is making a sweeping itf vs wtf dichotomy? I never even mentioned curriculum. I simply said do they drop their hand's while sparring... because they "likely" are "kicks are more points then punches" mentality in that dojang
.


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## Chrisoro (Aug 2, 2015)

You are right. I'm just tired, as it's 0430am here, and I probably should go to bed instead of misreading posts here partially asleep. Sorry about that. : )


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## TSDTexan (Aug 2, 2015)

Chrisoro said:


> You are right. I'm just tired, as it's 0430am here, and I probably should go to bed instead of misreading posts here partially asleep. Sorry about that. : )



Welcome to the human race brother.
I make millions of mistakes. And lots of corrections.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> 5. My kickboxing gym spars until someone is knocked out,



Are you in the UK now or still in Germany because I know of no reputable kick boxing ( or anything else) here that would allow sparring until someone is KO'd.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Are you in the UK now or still in Germany because I know of no reputable kick boxing ( or anything else) here that would allow sparring until someone is KO'd.



Now I am in the UK. I did kickboxing back in Germany.

I've seen many martial art classes in the UK, and I must say, that most of them do not even offer full-contact. I miss full contact.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Drose427 said:


> not really,
> 
> WAKO has a Muay Thai division I believe.
> 
> Even then, wako is the organization that hosts events not the type of kickboxing itself



Jup, but you see that it offers Kickboxing as an own sport.

I don't really know what you want me to say ? I can only tell you how it is ruled in my country, and when I am telling you that we have KICKBOXING as an own sport, long ago called SPORT-KARATE. Which is literally using Karate kicks and boxing punches, then this is what it is. There are no elbows and no knees involved... It's KICK-Boxing.

You can PM me and I give you the website of my old-kickboxing club, if you want you can ask them yourself.

lololol, what a meaningless discussion. There are different terms used in different countries. In English for example, the word MARTIAL ARTS is used for Boxing,Karate,Wrestling. In German we have two words " Kampfsport " and " Kampfkunst ", Kampfsport - Boxing,Wrestling,Kickboxing (- literally everything competitive, this is why we have SPORT in the name) and " Kampfkunst " which is literally stuff like Wing-Tsun,Krav-Maga,Pencak-Silat,Traditional Muay-Thai ( not thai-boxing ),Karate. So as you can see, we have an own word for more self-defence and traditional oriented martial arts and one for sport-oriented martial arts. In English you just call it self-defense, which would again kind of be too common in German language, since we are also able to defend ourself with Boxing, we would also call Boxing a self-defense in some cases.

This is what I think the issue is, a communication problem. We have an own martial art called KICKBOXEN, which does NOT include Muay-Thai, which does not include SAVATE, yes it might has some techniques that look like from savate or muay-thai, but this is probably because humans always had only two legs and two arms ! The Kickboxen we have in Germany, is also the daughter of the so called Sport-Karate we had, mostly spread in big cities, people who practiced Karate but wanted to have bloody fights, so they stepped in to a match and just kicked and punched the **** out of each other. Today we call it Kickboxen.

Conclusion: What I practised back then, was Kickboxing, or if you feel better, the German version of Kickboxing.


No need to get any further in to this discussion, since I made clear enough what I meant by Kickboxing. The topic is about something else.


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## jks9199 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I know that there are different SORTS, also called Rules Kickboxing fights are followed by. Our Kickboxing club tought us K1 and sometimes not. I've never competed in Kickboxing, so I don't know much about the match-rules.
> 
> FACT: Kickboxing is Kickboxing ! Kickboxing is not muay-thai, Kickboxing is not savate, Kickboxing is not taekwondo, Kickboxing is Kickboxing. And yes, there are different rules, same as there is ITF and WTF Taekwondo. Still, both is Taekwondo.


No, that's not a fact.  "Kickboxing" is a sport reflecting and influenced by several other combative sports, including muay-thai AKA Thai boxing,  lethwei AKA Burmese boxing, full contact karate, boxing, and others.  There are different rules depending on the association sanctioning the event, insurance requirements,  state regs, and more. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> No, that's not a fact.  "Kickboxing" is a sport reflecting and influenced by several other combative sports, including muay-thai AKA Thai boxing,  lethwei AKA Burmese boxing, full contact karate, boxing, and others.  There are different rules depending on the association sanctioning the event, insurance requirements,  state regs, and more.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



Correct, there are different rules. But Kickboxing itself is still kickboxing. Somebody claimed Kickboxing IS muay-thai,which is utter BS. Kickboxing is Kickboxing. Just because you have eggs in your apple-pie, doesn't mean that you are eating eggs, you are still eating an apple pie.


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## jks9199 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Correct, there are different rules. But Kickboxing itself is still kickboxing. Somebody claimed Kickboxing IS muay-thai,which is utter BS. Kickboxing is Kickboxing. Just because you have eggs in your apple-pie, doesn't mean that you are eating eggs, you are still eating an apple pie.


Perhaps your point would be better made by acknowledging that muay-thai,  lethwei, savate, etc. are all specific e,ample within the larger class of kickboxing -- but that's not what you have written to date. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps your point would be better made by acknowledging that muay-thai,  lethwei, savate, etc. are all specific e,ample within the larger class of kickboxing -- but that's not what you have written to date.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk



Can you please write something about the topic ? Not about something totally off-topic. If you don't know what KICKBOXING is, please google for it.

I am not here to teach Kickboxing, I am here to ask what would be more of a benefit in a SD situation, the more competitive Kickboxing, or the a bit more traditional Taekwondo.

Let me google that for you

Kickboxing - Google Search


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I've seen many martial art classes in the UK, and I must say, that most of them do not even offer full-contact. I miss full contact.



Tell me where you are and I will tell you where the nearest place that does full contact is, there's plenty around. They won't even mention the war.


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## Danny T (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> There are different terms used in different countries. In English for example, the word MARTIAL ARTS is used for Boxing,Karate,Wrestling. In German we have two words " Kampfsport " and " Kampfkunst ", Kampfsport - Boxing,Wrestling,Kickboxing (- literally everything competitive, this is why we have SPORT in the name) and " Kampfkunst " which is literally stuff like Wing-Tsun,Krav-Maga,Pencak-Silat,*Traditional Muay-Thai ( not thai-boxing )*,Karate.


Muay refers to Boxing in the Thai language. Muay Thai means Thai Boxing. So Traditional Muay Thai is Thai boxing.


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## jks9199 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> You walk down the street and a group of 3 people is pushing you around and is invading your personal space and so on forceing you in to a fight.


But, you see, you've already missed a huge part of self defense by that point. How do dinner you end up in a neighborhood where this would happen?  Why did you person going towards the group?  What warnings did you ignore, what signals did you send to precipitate such an attack?   Neither TKD nor kickboxing is particularly suited to protecting you from a mob assault without an unusual focus in the training. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Muay refers to Boxing in the Thai language. Muay Thai means Thai Boxing. So Traditional Muay Thai is Thai boxing.



Maybe, but again. Not in my country.

We have a difference between so called " Thaiboxing-schools " and " Muay-Thai schools ". Thaiboxing is oriented on competitions, the sport aspect, and MUAY THAI is totally concentrated on self-defense.

So you see, there are national differences again.

@jks9199: I am not here to discuss the psychological aspect of self-defense, and how to avoid it. I know very well how to avoid such situations, but I also know that there are situations your are not able to avoid. Let's take the example, you are walking home from training, at night. And 3-4 drugged maybe drunken strangers sourround you and start kicking you and trying to make you fight. How do you avoid it ? 

A) Going to the ground and start crying like a baby, with the hope they let go of you.

B) Scream out loud for HELP with the hope they are going to run away.

C) Knocking one or two of them out to get your way out of there and run away

D) Performing some sort of hollywood high-kick to scare the **** out of them, but risk them to beat you up even more.


There are some options, but the fact that there is not much time to think and you have ro react straight away, to use the blitz-moment for your benefit, does not leave you many options again.

I personally would probably pick C, since this sounds like the most safe and effective way of getting out of there. 

SURE, if I would see a group of suspicious looking people before, I would change the street-side to avoid any trouble. On the other hand, what is if you are crossing a peasant-tunnel-way ? And there is no way ? Walking straight back will get the attention of the possible attacker and will definitely bring you in to trouble, walking straight in to them can also bring you in to trouble. So there is literally no way out. Or what is if you are not alone ? If you have your girlfriend or your child with you ? Would you expect your child or fiancee to run as fast as you and maybe risk them to fall to the ground and get beaten up or even worse ? Obviously not !


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> what is if you are crossing a peasant-tunnel-way



I'm really hoping that you mean pedestrian rather than peasant because the latter conjures up a lot of interesting images, though it's probably better not to use the word 'blitz' that conjures up something else entirely as it means something quite painful to the British though it's something we are inordinately proud of dealing with.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I'm really hoping that you mean pedestrian rather than peasant because the latter conjures up a lot of interesting images, though it's probably better not to use the word 'blitz' that conjures up something else entirely as it means something quite painful to the British though it's something we are inordinately proud of dealing with.



yeah I mean pedestrian.

I don't know anyone who has a problem with the term Blitz. I also don't know anyone in the UK who would connect this term used in martial arts with the actual BLITZ mission on London using V2 rockets.

No need to be sensitive, my country was totally bombed out, nearly every city, and I have to see people celebrating British bombers like they are some sort of good samaritans. But we don't want to go there in this discussion, your comparison was inappropriate and fascist towards me. You only came up with it because I am a German. Congratulations, I expected a bit more from you.


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> yeah I mean pedestrian.
> 
> I don't know anyone who has a problem with the term Blitz. I also don't know anyone in the UK who would connect this term used in martial arts with the actual BLITZ mission on London using V2 rockets.
> 
> No need to be sensitive, my country was totally bombed out, nearly every city, and I have to see people celebrating British bombers like they are some sort of good samaritans. But we don't want to go there in this discussion, your comparison was inappropriate and fascist towards me. You only came up with it because I am a German. Congratulations, I expected a bit more from you.




Ah well, I suppose you haven't noticed all the celebrations, commemorations going on in the UK this year then. Actually I was telling you not to use the word because it does actually have connotations for the British, if no one has said anything it's because they are too polite. Besides you got it wrong it wasn't the V2 rockets. I was comparing nothing, you noted earlier differences in countries customs and mannerism because you are insisting that in your country kick boxing is something different and therefore you are correct correct, I'm just pointing out it's not appropriate to use the word blitz when speaking English._ You wouldn't use the N word to Americans_ would you, it's a cultural thing, don't read into it more than that.


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## Danny T (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> We have a difference between so called " Thaiboxing-schools " and " Muay-Thai schools ". Thaiboxing is oriented on competitions, the sport aspect, and MUAY THAI is totally concentrated on self-defense.


So all the "Muay Thai" schools, clubs, and gyms in Germany that advertise on their facebook pages and websites that they instruct Muay Thai and show all the competitions and belts their fighters have won in competitions are totally concentrated on instructing self-defense?


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## Tez3 (Aug 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> So all the "Muay Thai" schools, clubs, and gyms in Germany that advertise on their facebook pages and websites that they instruct Muay Thai and show all the competitions and belts their fighters have won in competitions are totally concentrated on instructing self-defense?



Muaythai Bund Deutschland IFMA International Federation of Muaythai Amateur


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## Tony Dismukes (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> I can only tell you how it is ruled in my country, and when I am telling you that we have KICKBOXING as an own sport, long ago called SPORT-KARATE. Which is literally using Karate kicks and boxing punches, then this is what it is



We may have a communication issue due to the language then. In English, "kickboxing" is the generic term used to describe any combative sport/martial arts training method which includes both kicking and punching with boxing gloves on. As such, it would encompass everything from the PKA to K1, as well as Muay Thai, Savate, Lethwei, (parts of) Bando, (parts of) Jun Fan Gung fu, etc. Bill Wallace and Rob Kaman were both kickboxers, but came from very different training backgrounds and competed under different rules.

Maybe things are different in German.



JohnnyEnglish said:


> Can you please write something about the topic ?



Well, as jks9199 was trying to point out, 90-95% of self-defense has nothing to do with fighting, so neither TKD or kickboxing is terribly relevant. However, your question is clearly concerned with the 5% that does involve fighting.

In that case, my answer is the same as I gave at the beginning of the thread - it depends on _how_ you train. If your (TKD or kickboxing) training gets you accustomed to hitting someone hard and taking a hard hit without losing your composure, then it will probably be helpful. If your (TKD or kickboxing) training only covers high kicks rather than low kicks, it will be less helpful. If your (TKD or kickboxing) training includes some skills for fighting in the clinch, it will be more helpful, if not it will be less helpful. If you only train your (TKD or kickboxing) with an eye towards competition rules, it will be less helpful. If you train your (TKD or kickboxing) with awareness of how it would apply outside of competition, it will be more helpful.

Fundamentally, the fighting skills that TKD and (whichever form of) kickboxing aim to develop are similar enough that the technical details of (for example) how you throw a front kick in one style vs another are far less important than the way you train the art in question.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

Danny T said:


> So all the "Muay Thai" schools, clubs, and gyms in Germany that advertise on their facebook pages and websites that they instruct Muay Thai and show all the competitions and belts their fighters have won in competitions are totally concentrated on instructing self-defense?



Well, not TOTALLY but mainly.

The competitions the Muay-Thay schools do, are pretty much the same to Thai-boxing schools. The only difference is, that you learn self-defense ascpects 80% of the time in Muay-Thai schools and 90% competition part in Thaiboxing schools.

If you want to be the ultimative Thai-fighter you better see two schools or schools with two instructors who are able to teach you both each.


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## kuniggety (Aug 3, 2015)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Well, not TOTALLY but mainly.
> 
> The competitions the Muay-Thay schools do, are pretty much the same to Thai-boxing schools. The only difference is, that you learn self-defense ascpects 80% of the time in Muay-Thai schools and 90% competition part in Thaiboxing schools.
> 
> If you want to be the ultimative Thai-fighter you better see two schools or schools with two instructors who are able to teach you both each.



Maybe that is how it is in Germany but that really makes zero sense. Muay Thai is, as Danny T said, "Thai boxing" in the literal sense. It distinguishes itself from Western boxing in the fact that it uses fists, elbows, knees, and feet instead of just feet. It is a striking art with a focus on fighting in the clinch.


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 3, 2015)

kuniggety said:


> Maybe that is how it is in Germany but that really makes zero sense. Muay Thai is, as Danny T said, "Thai boxing" in the literal sense. It distinguishes itself from Western boxing in the fact that it uses fists, elbows, knees, and feet instead of just feet. It is a striking art with a focus on fighting in the clinch.



You are maybe right, but I can only talk about things how I know them and learnt to know them.


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## Tez3 (Aug 4, 2015)

Several of my students have trained Muay Thai in Germany and they say the training is the same as in the UK, Muay Thai kick boxing with elbows, sweeps, clinches etc. the instructors are often Thai as well which is something that attracted them in the first place.


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## Zero (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.
> 
> Kyokushin Karate rules fighting goes bare knuckle (no gloves whatsoever) because punching is forbidden to the face. Of course, the Muay Thai guy was disadvantaged because he's not used to those rules (notice how he repeatedly punches Andy Hug in the face, it's reflex).
> 
> ...


Hi Texan, sorry to jump in on this when the thread has progressed a bit but I just wanted to make a point and pull you up on a comment.  Yes, the late great Andy Hug did leave his guard down in this fight (and of course his kyokoshin tournaments) but that was solely because of the particular rules for this fight.  His kyokoshin in itself was not the reason for him "constantly leaving his face open" and keeping his guard low.  He quickly transitioned into K1 where there are of course face punches and quickly became a K1 legend amongst legends...he won the K1 Grand Prix after all and has legendary status in K1 also.


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## Zero (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Here we have the late Andy Hug (3 time world champ Muay Thai), after he has been punched "AGAIN" in the face in a match against a Muay Thai kickboxer.
> here is a link to the fight.



Thanks, I enjoyed watching that fight and hadn't viewed it for a while.  The MT fighter equiped himself well, and I know he was not used to the rules, but all in all I viewed Andy as the superior fighter, at least in that confrontation.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Zero said:


> Hi Texan, sorry to jump in on this when the thread has progressed a bit but I just wanted to make a point and pull you up on a comment.  Yes, the late great Andy Hug did leave his guard down in this fight (and of course his kyokoshin tournaments) but that was solely because of the particular rules for this fight.  His kyokoshin in itself was not the reason for him "constantly leaving his face open" and keeping his guard low.  He quickly transitioned into K1 where there are of course face punches and quickly became a K1 legend amongst legends...he won the K1 Grand Prix after all and has legendary status in K1 also.




Well, I wasn't diss'n him. I love Hug. A lot.


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## Zero (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Well, I wasn't diss'n him. I love Hug. A lot.


I know you were, my man, that was clear!  : )  I love him too and his too early departure was a massive blow; he was and is an inspiration and I have worked  hard on many techniques including the axe-kick due to his example.

Peace and respect!


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Zero said:


> I know you were, my man, that was clear!  : )  I love him too and his too early departure was a massive blow; he was and is an inspiration and I have worked  hard on many techniques including the axe-kick due to his example.
> 
> Peace and respect!



The point was... MT fighter punches face, even though his brain says no punch face, his body has been trained "punch face"

OTOH, My dear Hug, didn't train to punch face, and other then accidentally doing so, He didn't.

However, he seemed irritated at being hit in the face, repeatedly.

He seems to keep guard at mid-body which seems reasonable against a leg fighter.

He isn't the only karateka who seems to get hit in the face by MT boxers or other stylists.

Pro western boxers keep the head / face well guarded to ward off bell ringing and KOs.

"elbows in and down"  they say.

Of course too many body blows will end you too.

The short of it is that you fight the way you train.


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## Transk53 (Aug 4, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The short of it is that you fight the way you train.



Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put


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## TSDTexan (Aug 4, 2015)

Transk53 said:


> Or you train the way you fight. Sorry my ears where bleeding the more I read. Simplistic as it sounds and put



“ You can only fight the way you practice” -Miyamoto Musashi


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The point was... MT fighter punches face, even though his brain says no punch face, his body has been trained "punch face"
> 
> OTOH, My dear Hug, didn't train to punch face, and other then accidentally doing so, He didn't.
> 
> ...


Yes agreed but an old dog can actually learn new tricks and many karateka have gone on to own K1 and take numerous belts in UFC.  This shows you can definitely transition - as you say, you simply need to alter your specific training or modify the techniques/tools you have in your arsenal.  I have fought in kyokoshin, open, kickboxing and muay thai tournaments. That said my goju club always trained and spars with punches to head.


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> We may have a communication issue due to the language then. In English, "kickboxing" is the generic term used to describe any combative sport/martial arts training method which includes both kicking and punching with boxing gloves on. As such, it would encompass everything from the PKA to K1, as well as Muay Thai, Savate, Lethwei, (parts of) Bando, (parts of) Jun Fan Gung fu, etc. Bill Wallace and Rob Kaman were both kickboxers, but came from very different training backgrounds and competed under different rules.



I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here.  But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.

Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets.  And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai".  Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work.  Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament.  There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.

What I am trying to say is that in some places/countries people in MA will instinctively know what "Kickboxing" is and what to expect when going to a club or entering a tournament (although always check the rules!) and they will see Muay Thai as different.

To be honest I would be surprised if that is not the case in most places and perhaps people are being a bit semantic...or maybe you (and others) are genuinely saying that if a mate where you live said "I'm off to the kickboxing club tonight", you would be confused or not sure if they meant Muay Thai or savate or something else?

Sure you could say, "hey is that a PKA kickboxing club or something else?"  But if a guy is doing Muay Thai he's going to say, "hey, I'm off to Muay Thai tonight (because "kickboxers" are too scaredy-cat to use elbows)"


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## JohnnyEnglish (Aug 5, 2015)

Zero said:


> I think there may primarily be a communication thing going on here.  But that said, I kind of have to agree with old JohnyEnglish on this to a degree and I understand where he is coming from.
> 
> Yes, kickboxing is a generic term and can encompass many different styles and rule sets.  And clearly MT is a form of kickboxing (among other things, they kick and they box!). But when I trained and fought in New Zealand, it was well understood that there was "kickboxing" and there was "Muay Thai".  Kickboxing was understood to mean a style that did not train or use elbow in competition but it did still focus a lot on clinch work.  Muay Thai used the elbow and were permitted to do so in tournament.  There was an acknowledged divide and difference and there were many schools called "Kickboxing" and the rules for tournaments were pretty much identical.
> 
> ...



Wow, actually the first person that understands what I am repatedly saying over and over again.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 5, 2015)

the OP started with a line of questioning Kickboxing vs Taekwondo for the purposes of self defense.



JohnnyEnglish said:


> I simply want to know what is better for self-defense. I am not flaming at all, I am new to this forum and came here to discuss things like this.
> I did kickboxing long ago, but since both martial arts work with legs and hands, but kickboxing seems a bit more aggressive, I asked myself, what would bring me further in a real situation ?



Do we really need to know all the various forms of KB to help the OP determine what best meets his proclaimed needs?

Whether it be Kickboxing with elbows or Kickboxing without elbows. They are both competitive fighting sports.

When we get to the point of discussing merits of one versus the other... its about as meaningful as arguing McDonald's Hamburgers, vs Wendy's Hamburgers vs BurgerKing's Hamburgers vs Some Local outfit.

If all this is, for him, talk with no doing and no training... it is as meaningful as talking about who has the best burgers when you have no money to buy any.

On this thread, I vote for the OP to consider "Less Talking, More Kicking" instead of sitting around deliberating and pontificating.


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## Hanzou (Aug 5, 2015)

Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.


I am glad someone brought informed reason back into this thread again.

I am only surprised you forgot the qualification that bjj is of course better the Muay Thai.


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## Hanzou (Aug 5, 2015)

Zero said:


> I am glad someone brought informed reason back into this thread again.
> 
> I am only surprised you forgot the qualification that bjj is of course better the Muay Thai.



Muay Thai is actually a lovely compliment to Bjj.

In terms of MT vs TKD, I simply have to give the edge to MT. MT schools tend to churn out better fighters than TKD schools do. Additionally, MT teaches you how to use more of your body as a weapon.


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> *Muay Thai is actually a lovely compliment to Bjj.*
> 
> In terms of MT vs TKD, I simply have to give the edge to MT. MT schools tend to churn out better fighters than TKD schools do. Additionally, MT teaches you how to use more of your body as a weapon.


Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style?  Can you please illuminate?

If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.

Why not just be a rounded fighter: punch, kick, takedown/shoot, submit?


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

Zero said:


> Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
> Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style?  Can you please illuminate?
> 
> If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.
> ...


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## Zero (Aug 5, 2015)

hey, look, I'm quoting myself now, don't know WTF happened there!!  : )


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## TSDTexan (Aug 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Muay Thai kickboxing is better for self defense than TKD.



In general, I would agree with you.
However... that depends on what is being taught under the name TKD. There is several differant animals running around with the TKD name on it.

What was taught to US Airforce Policemen, and US Army Soldiers, and their Korean counterparts that was tested in the Korean war, and Vietnam war under the names Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo is a different critter, *than* what Scoccermom Susie Homemaker's 15 year old boy takes at the mall on Wednesdays and Saturdays to win regional trophies in point tournaments.

Here is an example of Mall TKD, an instructor of TKD with 9 years experience vs a 1 year grappler of experience in BJJ.


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## Hanzou (Aug 5, 2015)

Zero said:


> Isn't that simply like saying [any striking art] is a lovely compliment to [bjj/grappling].
> Or if you are specifically meaning MT and the way it can work with and transition into bjj moves, why would you say this fits better into the bjj package and style rather than another striking style?  Can you please illuminate?
> 
> If this was really to have some thought put into it, there may well be other striking styles with stances, guard positions and strike delivery which transition better into bjj than MT.
> ...



Because the MT clinching system works great with the Bjj takedown system. Boxing's clinch is pretty good too, but MT incorporates elbows, knees, and takedowns from their clinch.


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## TSDTexan (Aug 5, 2015)

Here is an example of Mall TKD, an instructor of TKD with 9 years experience vs a 1 year grappler of experience in BJJ.
It didn't post the link earlier.


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## Hanzou (Aug 5, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> In general, I would agree with you.
> However... that depends on what is being taught under the name TKD. There is several differant animals running around with the TKD name on it.
> 
> What was taught to US Airforce Policemen, and US Army Soldiers, and their Korean counterparts that was tested in the Korean war, and Vietnam war under the names Tang Soo Do and TaeKwonDo is a different critter, *than* what Scoccermom Susie Homemaker's 15 year old boy takes at the mall on Wednesdays and Saturdays to win regional trophies in point tournaments.



What's taught and learned by soldiers always tends to be more combat oriented than what is taught to the general population. Further, a soldier in general is more than likely going to be a more dangerous individual than a librarian who does a martial art as a hobby.

I'm talking about on average, and on average the majority of TKD schools are belt factories. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, because they're businesses first and foremost, and kids love belts.



> Here is an example of Mall TKD, an instructor of TKD with 9 years experience vs a 1 year grappler of experience in BJJ.



What's your point?


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## TSDTexan (Aug 5, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> What's taught and learned by soldiers always tends to be more combat oriented than what is taught to the general population. Further, a soldier in general is more than likely going to be a more dangerous individual than a librarian who does a martial art as a hobby.
> 
> I'm talking about on average, and on average the majority of TKD schools are belt factories. Nothing necessarily wrong with that, because they're businesses first and foremost, and kids love belts.
> 
> ...


Simply that not all types of TKD is equally effective.
MT maybe be stronger or weaker depending on which


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## S-K-K (Jun 17, 2017)

*Kickboxer can easily beat a Taekwondo athlete, 
Here is the reason why: Kickboxers are good in boxing and they have been taught strictly to pick their guard up. Which most Taekwondo athletes fail in.* 
*And, a lot of kickboxers even (American kickboxers) don't use many high kicks they use kicks to waist. High kicks can be risky in a street fight. *


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## jobo (Jun 18, 2017)

S-K-K said:


> *Kickboxer can easily beat a Taekwondo athlete,
> Here is the reason why: Kickboxers are good in boxing and they have been taught strictly to pick their guard up. Which most Taekwondo athletes fail in.
> And, a lot of kickboxers even (American kickboxers) don't use many high kicks they use kicks to waist. High kicks can be risky in a street fight. *


its a two year old thread, were your bored or something ?

but go on then, are you saying that if a kickboxer and tkd guy had a street fight the kickboxer would win because he can't kick as high?


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## drop bear (Jun 18, 2017)

S-K-K said:


> *Kickboxer can easily beat a Taekwondo athlete,
> Here is the reason why: Kickboxers are good in boxing and they have been taught strictly to pick their guard up. Which most Taekwondo athletes fail in.
> And, a lot of kickboxers even (American kickboxers) don't use many high kicks they use kicks to waist. High kicks can be risky in a street fight. *



Waist kick would be riskier. More chance of getting caught.


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## Jaeimseu (Jun 18, 2017)

These are such silly arguments. Why do people assume tkd athletes wouldn't have hands up in a "fight." Athletes fight with hands down because it is generally advantageous to do so under WTF rules. I guess the safest way to beat a BJJ guy is to tap and then club him when he lets go. Maybe Master Ken was on to something. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Headhunter (Jun 19, 2017)

S-K-K said:


> *Kickboxer can easily beat a Taekwondo athlete,
> Here is the reason why: Kickboxers are good in boxing and they have been taught strictly to pick their guard up. Which most Taekwondo athletes fail in.
> And, a lot of kickboxers even (American kickboxers) don't use many high kicks they use kicks to waist. High kicks can be risky in a street fight. *


Yes a kickboxer can beat a taekwondo guy....but a taekwondo could also beat a kickboxer. Any kind of kick is risky in a fight. And actually kickboxers do use a lot of high kicks. 

Obviously you're biased so are going to say your styles the best...have you ever even done taekwondo


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## Headhunter (Jun 19, 2017)

Jaeimseu said:


> These are such silly arguments. Why do people assume tkd athletes wouldn't have hands up in a "fight." Athletes fight with hands down because it is generally advantageous to do so under WTF rules. I guess the safest way to beat a BJJ guy is to tap and then club him when he lets go. Maybe Master Ken was on to something.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Absolutely look at Anderson silva, best Muay Thai fighter in mma and always fights with his hands down, Stephen Thompson kickboxer and karate fighter always has hands down. Just because they do it in the ring doesn't mean they can't raise there hands when needed.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jun 19, 2017)

If we are talking about the Olympics version of TKD, I would rate Kickboxing as more effective than it, purely because it better resembles a real fight than Olympics TKD.


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## Balrog (Jun 27, 2017)

JohnnyEnglish said:


> Hello everyone.
> 
> My question today is, what is better for SELF-DEFENSE ?
> 
> ITF TAEKWONDO or KICKBOXING ?


The one that is better for self-defense is the one that you are better at.


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