# Martial Arts Extinction



## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

With so many martial arts out there (thousands?) 
has anybody ever heard of a style going extinct?

It seems to me that some 
must have fallen by the wayside over the centuries.

I know many still 
exist as parts of more modern styles of martial arts. So we will call that 
assimilation.

What arts have ceased to exist either via assimilation or 
extinction, and why?


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## Makalakumu (Mar 9, 2012)

Lots of styles of Kung Fu have gone extinct.  Many of the styles of Kung Fu that were assimilated into Okinawan Karate no longer exist.


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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

Do you think any have vanished in the last 50 years?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2012)

There are so many styles and sub styles of Chinese MartialArts it is hard to give a name. There are family styles that go extinct andcurrently there are several styles of Bagua about to go extinct. 

the original Shaolin is pretty much gone as is the originalWudang. Also most styles of Taiji are incredibly close to going extinct as amartial art that many who do Taijiquan and more that see it these days don'teven know it is one


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## Touch Of Death (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> With so many martial arts out there (thousands?)
> has anybody ever heard of a style going extinct?
> 
> It seems to me that some
> ...


Martial arts are invented for what the concerns of the day dictate; so, if the concerns don't exist anymore, neither should the martial art. 
Sean


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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

It's a sobering thought.  Do you think that styles that have gone extinct ever get resurrected?  If so how?


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## clfsean (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> It's a sobering thought.  Do you think that styles that have gone extinct ever get resurrected?  If so how?



Can't resurrect the dead. So much of the body mechanics/theories/applications/etc... are lost, that arguably that ok it's back. But it's a Frankenstein of what it was & therefore not the same. It can't be called "X" anymore because it's not "X".


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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

Can you think of an example of where it has been tried (resurrection)?  How did it fall short of the mark and conversely did something good come out of it?


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## Bill Mattocks (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Can you think of an example of where it has been tried (resurrection)?  How did it fall short of the mark and conversely did something good come out of it?



Bartitsu, perhaps?  How it compares to the original?  Do not know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

I believe that there are a number of Okinawan 'family' ryu that no longer exist in their original form; I could be wrong.  And some might argue that the original 'te' forms are gone.  I'm sure there are many other examples of styles that have gone extinct.


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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

Wow Bartitsu has some neat history.  It makes me want to read Sherlock Holmes.


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## Instructor (Mar 9, 2012)

> In 1899, Barton-Wright summarized the essential principles of Bartitsu as:
> To disturb the equilibrium of your assailant.
> To surprise him before he has time to regain his balance and use his strength.
> If necessary, to subject the joints of any parts of his body, whether neck, shoulder, elbow, wrist, back, knee, ankle, etc. to strains that they are anatomically and mechanically unable to resist.



Kind of sounds like Hapkido.


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## Blindside (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Can you think of an example of where it has been tried (resurrection)? How did it fall short of the mark and conversely did something good come out of it?



Most of the current Renaissance Martial Arts or Historical Europran Martial Arts groups are trying to resurrect what was using the books left by the fencing masters as reference.  I worked with one guy recently on sword and buckler material based off of the I.33 document and the stuff was really interesting to me though very counter-intuitive to my FMA habits.  The material felt solid and the justification for why he did what he did was very sound.  His Messer work was so close to what I do in FMA it was scary (hmm similarities between two arts based around mid-length slashing emphasis sword work....), in fact he wound up lifting a drill from me because he thought it did a good job teaching the same skills he was trying to get across.  I believe the messer material uses multiple period book sources.  He doesn't claim to be a "master" and talks about the frustrations of trying to interpret a 2d drawing from the 13th century as a guide, and then trying to test the various interpretations.  He is a better swordsman than many people that I have met that claim living traditions, so I think something "good" has come of it.  It may not be exactly what what was, but then I suspect that is true of many of our martial arts with living traditions as well.


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## clfsean (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Can you think of an example of where it has been tried (resurrection)?  How did it fall short of the mark and conversely did something good come out of it?



yeah this Italian longsword group. Scholari something... I went to a class one time. They're trying to put it together from a Renaissance era manual/manuscript or two... and then filling in the gaps with "aikido" and "wushu" and other things. It's on their website & directly alludes to the fact they fill in the gaps where they need too.


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## Blindside (Mar 9, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Kind of sounds like Hapkido.



Probably because Bartitsu had a large traditional jujutsu component to it.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 9, 2012)

This guy is trying to do too

Chinese Longsword


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## Blindside (Mar 9, 2012)

Regarding extinction, I believe the Japanese documented their extant historical martial arts prior to 1868, and I believe those documents show several extinctions since that time.


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## oaktree (Mar 9, 2012)

> With so many martial arts out there (thousands?)
> has anybody ever heard of a style going extinct?


 Yes alot of Jujutsu styles and Kungfu styles have.



> What arts have ceased to exist either via assimilation or
> extinction, and why?


Alot of the Ninjutsu schools are extinict, Jujutsu and Kenjutsu styles as well. Alot of Kungfu styles extinct. Alot of the reason is due to no one to successfully carry the lines.
 It could be that certain styles were meshed with other styles, or there was no need to keep a particular style around anymore because it was not effective.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 10, 2012)

Right.

Have any martial arts gone extinct? Far more than exist now, to say the least. Some arts only last a single generation, with no-one continuing them for many reasons. Others last longer, but not forever. These include arts from everywhere, such as many forms of Japanese arts, many Chinese systems, and many Western systems (such as traditional wrestling forms, pancration, and many more), as well as all Korean systems (albeit with some controversy... but nothing that currently exists as a Korean system is what was around way back when).

How about in the last 50 years? Sure, of course there have been. I train with a gentleman who learnt a particular form of Chinese martial arts which ceased to exist when his teacher stopped teaching about 10 years ago. If no-one is in a position to continue a system, it dies.

Can you resurrect them? Well, that's the question... I would say yes, provided there are certain criteria met. First, there needs to be a closely related system still extant to be used as a reference point. Next, the person reconstructing the system (that's the common term, by the way) needs to have experience in similar or related systems. And thirdly, there needs to be enough information left to base the reconstruction off. Reconstructing arts happens a bit in Japanese traditions, primarily due to the large amount of documentation that remains of old systems. In recent times, arts such as Katayama Hoki Ryu Jujutsu have been reconstructed (70 years after it went "extinct"), and sections of other systems such as the newly created Betsuden Mokuroku of Toda-ha Buko Ryu (containing it's methods for Kusarigama and Nagamaki, reconstructed from old documents the Ryu maintained).


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## mukashimantis (Mar 10, 2012)

I know from reading about them, that some Indian martial arts are lost. I am sure that goese for other countries as well. I would think that alot of knowledge about vital points is lost and systems with weapons that are no longer used are probably forgotten.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Mar 10, 2012)

I don't think that any Martial Arts have gone extinct, since so much information is coming out, many Martial Art pioneers are doing field research and whatnot bringing back ancient fighting systems and modernizing the concepts, reshaping and reforming these old arts.


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## clfsean (Mar 10, 2012)

Then they are being Frankensteined &amp; can not be considered as original. If you have to put things in to fill the gaps, information was lost. What is left is an amalgam &amp; shadow of what it was, not what it is. 

That's nor to say it doesn't work ir isn't effective... But be honest about what it is &amp; is not.

Sent from my Thunderbolt on Tapatalk. Excuse the auto-correct spelling errors.


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## Tswolfman (Mar 10, 2012)

But just like any transference of information things change. So does that mean every time we have a new master we have a new art or do we keep the same art but changed. Martial arts change for the time period they are in so even if one is Reconstructed it is still that art just the modern interpretation of it. It doesnt matter if it has a direct lineage or skipping thru time. The name doesn't define the style the participants do. Great example Taekwondo you go to 2 different schools they could be the same or vastly different who is to say which is TKD and which isn't.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 11, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I don't think that any Martial Arts have gone extinct, since so much information is coming out, many Martial Art pioneers are doing field research and whatnot bringing back ancient fighting systems and modernizing the concepts, reshaping and reforming these old arts.



I'm not really sure what you could mean here... it's incredibly well documented that huge numbers of martial arts have gone extinct.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 11, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I don't think that any Martial Arts have gone extinct, since so much information is coming out, many Martial Art pioneers are doing field research and whatnot bringing back ancient fighting systems and modernizing the concepts, reshaping and reforming these old arts.




Which is like saying they are bringing back the same thing but different therefore in other words it is the resurrected art in name only and everything else that made up that are is gone.


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## mukashimantis (Mar 11, 2012)

While I agree that people are trying to bring back forgotten or little used arts, things do get lost through time. There may exist a record of a style, or perhaps a drawing or painting, but that may be all. As an example, the fighting arts of ancient Egypt or Babylon. We know they exist , from wall paintings and ceramics, but little else is known about them. Even if you look at a very broad definition of arts, such as Karate, Jiu Jitsu, etc., you will find that the older they are , the more is lost . How much do we really know about Musashi's sword school? He wrote extensively about strategy, yet I do not think we could say that his style is as complete as when he taught it. How many other arts existed from lesser or unknown masters that we will never see?  Did Native American peoples have fighting arts? With no surviving written records, we do not know. The same holds true for art , architecture, medicine.


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## Langenschwert (Mar 11, 2012)

clfsean said:


> yeah this Italian longsword group. Scholari something... I went to a class one time. They're trying to put it together from a Renaissance era manual/manuscript or two... and then filling in the gaps with "aikido" and "wushu" and other things. It's on their website & directly alludes to the fact they fill in the gaps where they need too.



Hmmm... there are far better arts to use for frog DNA than those for HEMA. At any rate, the key to unlocking these manuals is having a solid reference point, even if it is Aikido. Fundamentals never change. For German longsword and related arts, the best foundation to have is often wrestling (of whatever kind) and classical Japanese martial arts. Also living European stick traditions have a lot to offer some reconstrcutionists, as they are often the remnants of longsword teachings. French baton has much in common with Italian Spadone, for example. Also, the more you know about the source material, the less outside influence you need.

If you have a solid grounding in MA, you can get quite a lot out of the old manuals, certainly enough to reconstruct a martial art. However, it's really a modern martial art based heavily on the ancient writings. And that's OK. What's probably the case is that if you're doing what the manual says, and can get it to work the way it says it's supposed to, then someone probably did it that way in period. There were multiple schools, each with their own take on things. Even in the Liechtenauer tradtion of manuals, there are sometimes significant variances. As long as our modern variances aren't more out of line with each other than the manuals are, I think that's pretty OK.

Now, for rapier, the reconstruction is largely complete, _because the techniques never went away_. Fully 80% of renaissance rapier was preserved in classical epee. Once they figured that out, it was reasonably smooth sailing. There simply isn't a lot of work left to do. The contentious forum threads you see on Liechtenauer or Fiore (or especially I.33) simply no longer have their counterparts in the rapier world. Too bad I'm no longer a rapierist.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Langenschwert (Mar 11, 2012)

mukashimantis said:


> How much do we really know about Musashi's sword school? He wrote extensively about strategy, yet I do not think we could say that his style is as complete as when he taught it.



Considering HNIR is still extant today, they could probably say quite a bit about it. It seems pretty darn complete to me.

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Chris Parker (Mar 12, 2012)

mukashimantis said:


> Even if you look at a very broad definition of arts, such as Karate, Jiu Jitsu, etc., you will find that the older they are , the more is lost.



You may find it hard to back that up, you know... especially when it comes to the Japanese systems. But, for the record, jujutsu isn't what has become extinct in some forms, but specific Ryu of jujutsu are. There's quite a distinction there...



mukashimantis said:


> How much do we really know about Musashi's sword school? He wrote extensively about strategy, yet I do not think we could say that his style is as complete as when he taught it.



Really bad choice of system there, you know... really bad. And you'll find a number of posters here who can answer it quite emphatically on that point.


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## itto_seki (Mar 12, 2012)

Ellis Amdur's "Koryu" actually cites a story of a Naginata ryuha becoming extinct because the the Soke thought that her successor didn't have a suitable character.  Martial arts in general tends to be a novelty, especially in Asian countries. Many schoolkids in Japan would rather kick a soccer ball or swing a bat instead of pick up a shinai!


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## puunui (Mar 12, 2012)

Instructor said:


> With so many martial arts out there (thousands?)
> has anybody ever heard of a style going extinct?



I guess it depends on how you define a martial art. You and I learn from the same teacher. You take it one way, I another. Neither does what our teacher did, at least not exactly. Would that be an extinction of our teacher's method? I think things become obsolete, fall into disuse, evolve into something else, etc. I also think lineages or branches may die off. There are styles that attempt to keep things exactly the way things were in the past, but I think even with that approach, there will be differences, due to people being different. I don't know if you have seen this taiwanese boy cover whitney houston's song I will always love you or not. He does a pretty good job, but as close as it gets, but there are small differences, which over time I think would get magnified, over successive generations.


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## geezer (Mar 12, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Really bad choice of system there, you know... really bad. And you'll find a number of posters here who can answer it quite emphatically on that point.



Chris, I'd like to hear more of your opinions on this. From what little I remember of reading _Go Rin No Sho (Sp?) _and a couple of biographies on Musashi and his Niten Ichi Ryu (sp?) many years ago, I would seriously doubt that what is practiced today in his name would really bear much resemblance to how Musashi actually fought. Society has changed too much, and today's swordsmen don't actually apply their arts in life and death challenges. That makes a huge, qualitative difference in a martial art. Also, if I remember correctly, Musashi himself was largely self taught, and had a pronounced disdain for many of the formalized and ritualistic ryu of swordsmanship emerging in his own time. Seriously, would he even recognize any form of Kenjutsu taught today as descending directly from him? Perhaps, but somehow I doubt it. Even when you speak of the most ancient and traditional arts with long, unbroken lineages, such as Katori Shinto Ryu, the question must be asked. Would Iizasa Ienao still recognize his art in Katori Shinto Ryu as practiced today... a formalized ritual practiced in a world where there can be no true challenges? I remain dubious, but am willing to be corrected, as this is not a topic I have studied. 

BTW, I'm not just picking on bushido. Actually, I would apply the same argument to _any_ martial art that is more than a couple of generations removed from direct application, including the arts I enjoy practicing (even the Escrima I study hasn't been used to kill in battle since the WWII period and few of that generation are still with us). Just because we come from a well established lineage doesn't mean we can apply our skills in the same way as our martial forbears. In that regard, many martial arts are somewhat "extinct" even though they remain widely practiced. Or, _what Xue said_ (about Taijiquan).


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## itto_seki (Mar 12, 2012)

geezer said:


> Chris, I'd like to hear more of your opinions on this. From what little I remember of reading _Go Rin No Sho (Sp?) _and a couple of biographies on Musashi and his Niten Ichi Ryu (sp?) many years ago, I would seriously doubt that what is practiced today in his name would really bear much resemblance to how Musashi actually fought. Society has changed too much, and today's swordsmen don't actually apply their arts in life and death challenges. That makes a huge, qualitative difference in a martial art. Also, if I remember correctly, Musashi himself was largely self taught, and had a pronounced disdain for many of the formalized and ritualistic ryu of swordsmanship emerging in his own time. Seriously, would he even recognize any form of Kenjutsu taught today as descending directly from him? Perhaps, but somehow I doubt it. Even when you speak of the most ancient and traditional arts with long, unbroken lineages, such as Katori Shinto Ryu, the question must be asked. Would Iizasa Ienao still recognize his art in Katori Shinto Ryu as practiced today... a formalized ritual practiced in a world where there can be no true challenges? I remain dubious, but am willing to be corrected, as this is not a topic I have studied.   BTW, I'm not just picking on bushido. Actually, I would apply the same argument to _any_ martial art that is more than a couple of generations removed from direct application, including the arts I enjoy practicing (even the Escrima I study hasn't been used to kill in battle since the WWII period and few of that generation are still with us). Just because we come from a well established lineage doesn't mean we can apply our skills in the same way as our martial forbears. In that regard, many martial arts are somewhat "extinct" even though they remain widely practiced. Or, _what Xue said_ (about Taijiquan).


  I'm sorry, but there are a few things that need to be pointed out in your argument.  Musashi wasn't self taught, his father Shinmen Munisai more than likely  provided his son with basic martial knowledge. Even Musashi's adopted son, Miyamoto Iori says on his father's monument that Musashi adapted his art from the jutte art that was taught to him by his father.  Secondly, Musashi criticized the Katori and Kashima's schools concepts of hyoho, or strategy.  He really doesn't directly attack their techniques. Lastly, Gorin no sho was meant for the eyes of one student and one student alone, it's completely by accident that we have copies of it today. That being said, members of the ryuha (Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu) can read the Gorin no Sho and have a higher chance of understanding the instructions that Musashi Sensei left behind. I think this is a good example of the school's preservation. Another example is an ongoing mantra that holds dear within the ryu, "Without Adaptation".  Case in point: http://www.hyoho.com/embo.html


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## Chris Parker (Mar 14, 2012)

geezer said:


> Chris, I'd like to hear more of your opinions on this. From what little I remember of reading _Go Rin No Sho (Sp?) _and a couple of biographies on Musashi and his Niten Ichi Ryu (sp?) many years ago, I would seriously doubt that what is practiced today in his name would really bear much resemblance to how Musashi actually fought. Society has changed too much, and today's swordsmen don't actually apply their arts in life and death challenges. That makes a huge, qualitative difference in a martial art. Also, if I remember correctly, Musashi himself was largely self taught, and had a pronounced disdain for many of the formalized and ritualistic ryu of swordsmanship emerging in his own time. Seriously, would he even recognize any form of Kenjutsu taught today as descending directly from him? Perhaps, but somehow I doubt it. Even when you speak of the most ancient and traditional arts with long, unbroken lineages, such as Katori Shinto Ryu, the question must be asked. Would Iizasa Ienao still recognize his art in Katori Shinto Ryu as practiced today... a formalized ritual practiced in a world where there can be no true challenges? I remain dubious, but am willing to be corrected, as this is not a topic I have studied.
> 
> BTW, I'm not just picking on bushido. Actually, I would apply the same argument to _any_ martial art that is more than a couple of generations removed from direct application, including the arts I enjoy practicing (even the Escrima I study hasn't been used to kill in battle since the WWII period and few of that generation are still with us). Just because we come from a well established lineage doesn't mean we can apply our skills in the same way as our martial forbears. In that regard, many martial arts are somewhat "extinct" even though they remain widely practiced. Or, _what Xue said_ (about Taijiquan).



Expect a PM from me, my friend... but be ready to be corrected!

Itto_seki covered things from a HNIR perspective pretty well (I might phrase things a little differently, for example how the Gorin no Sho became public, which, although it wasn't Musashi's intent wasn't really an "accident"... it was more to do with people going behind his back, in a way), so there's little to add to that, but I will address a few things to do with the mentality of Koryu systems, in particular HNIR and TSKSR, as you've brought them up.

As Itto_seki said, there is the concept of "Without adaptation" associated with Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu. That is carved into a bokken, which is said to have been made by Musashi himself, and is passed down from Soke to Soke as one of the symbols of authority, which is then referred to as the "Jisso Enman" bokuto (Jisso Enman means "without adaptation). This is considered the final instruction passed from Musashi to his heirs, that the art should be passed down without adaptation. As such, yes, Musashi should certainly recognise his art, even after the centuries.

With Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, again, there is the concept of not wanting to alter the art. In this case, the teachings are said to have been directly transmitted from Heaven (Tenshinsho Den), so to change them is to say you know better than Heaven. It just isn't done. While there has been some loss to some material, the basic art is just not changed to that degree. So again, yes, Iizasa Choisai Ienao would recognise what he taught.

Here's the thing, though. The idea of these arts no longer being tested by combative exposure is actually beside the point. Provided the system is continued properly, there are internal methods used to maintain constistency, and provided those are followed, the system remains effective (as per it's intentions... which is an important detail....).


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## Zenjael (Mar 14, 2012)

I practice a style of Bagua called shishi baguazhang, and it has been thought to be extinct, so I was informed for over a 100 years. There are many styles which have gone extinct, but there are quite a few I imagine are held to be extinct, and there are still a practitioner or two who is handing down the training, master to student, though one at a time, and as quietly as possible. This is how I learned my art, and my master from his before him. We go far back as well, and keep the history well guarded. Past the 5th master back, for example, it gets murky as to where the art really developed, stylistically for the branch I practice.

When my master passed four years ago, as far as I know, I am the last practitioner of the style. How does one verify that? They can't really, and it can be annoying, but you work with what you get.

There are lots of claims to learning 'secretive' styles with little evidence, but I think this stems from assigning what almost feels like a value system to the arts. I feel that martial arts are expression of thought through physical means, and as such, each style is like a language in being representative of thought- and of a certain kind of thought. Some forms of logic work better in certain situations, and likewise, so too do certain arts, though none are superior.

I was not the only student my sifu trained, I am merely the only one he trained after WW2, and that he knew of no surviving students. When you become the successor of anything, you find yourself, I think, seeking students who are of quality. It would pain me to teach shishi bagua to a 9 year old who quit 3 months later, when she was just dipping her toe in. I would not teach it to a person like that, and I do not believe my master would either. It is not that the art is kept from people, it is that it is reserved until ready to be expanded. I think of Wing Chun, which was passed quietly through several families for many decades before several key figures, across two generations were able to expand it to its reknown today, and even foster subsequent evolutionary, new styles.

I imagine, like language, there are some which are on the verge of true extinction. And I imagine many of the last practitioner of anything have found themself wondering between whether they really are the last one, and its implications, or if they are just separated from the others like them. It's a difficult fjord for most to cross I believe. 

In the end, every art is its own, and the practitioner. One could argue every style is extinct, and no true standard really exists anymore. Every style changes with each generation. No matter how many safeties are placed in an orginization to mitigate this. I think of kendo, and its modern rigidness, and how in the 30s and 40s and 50s it gradually lost the throws and its kicks. Of how Tae Kwon Do arguable didn't exist until this century (TKD <3). I imagine when I teach shishi, it will be different, in grades, than what my master taught me. But I am not him, and don't believe I ever will.

I ramble, but my point is this- an art is an art for the value it holds in what it can communicate across divisions. I have found no art perfectly capable of that, yet.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2012)

What is the origin of shishi baguazhang?


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## Zenjael (Mar 14, 2012)

It was recognized in about 1850 as being different than Yin style, though elements were retained. As far as I know, there is no founder save what you can find in the standard mythos of Baguazhang. A daoist practitioner merged circle walking with already existant techniques. One could ask where the origin of Xing Yi hails outside of geography, and the answer will most likely be the same.

I wish I could point to a master and say, this is who created it, but for all I know my teacher may have created the style himself, and given it a fake background. All I have is him to point to, and the most origin story I have is that we grew out of daoist principles applied to Northern style martial arts. From that, one could argue bagua is ancient, though it was only recognized in the 19th century as distinct from others.

Again, there is much conjecture. I'll give a simple answer; I have information that was given, guesses of my own, and ultimately I do not know.

But I do know the style is effective, and is not unfinished, so it must have had an origin somewhere. I would guess it's as rare if not moreso than three sister's form of internal arts.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> It was recognized in about 1850 as being different than Yin style, though elements were retained. As far as I know, there is no founder save what you can find in the standard mythos of Baguazhang. A daoist practitioner merged circle walking with already existant techniques. One could ask where the origin of Xing Yi hails outside of geography, and the answer will most likely be the same.
> 
> I wish I could point to a master and say, this is who created it, but for all I know my teacher may have created the style himself, and given it a fake background. All I have is him to point to, and the most origin story I have is that we grew out of daoist principles applied to Northern style martial arts. From that, one could argue bagua is ancient, though it was only recognized in the 19th century as distinct from others.
> 
> ...




Thats cool, kind of like Yin Yang Baguazhang (aka Bapanzhang)


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## Instructor (Mar 14, 2012)

Perhaps we should add a third category: Coelacanth  i.e. arts that were thought to be extinct but still exist with a small following.


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## clfsean (Mar 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> It was recognized in about 1850 as being different than Yin style, though elements were retained. As far as I know, there is no founder save what you can find in the standard mythos of Baguazhang. A daoist practitioner merged circle walking with already existant techniques. One could ask where the origin of Xing Yi hails outside of geography, and the answer will most likely be the same.



Well that pretty wild & wicked especially since Yin Fu wasn't born until 1840 & didn't meet Dong Haichuan until 1864-ish.



Zenjael said:


> I wish I could point to a master and say, this is who created it, but for all I know my teacher may have created the style himself, and given it a fake background. All I have is him to point to, and the most origin story I have is that we grew out of daoist principles applied to Northern style martial arts. From that, one could argue bagua is ancient, though it was only recognized in the 19th century as distinct from others.



Hmmm....



Zenjael said:


> Again, there is much conjecture. I'll give a simple answer; I have information that was given, guesses of my own, and ultimately I do not know.



Best thing I've heard so far.



Zenjael said:


> But I do know the style is effective, and is not unfinished, so it must have had an origin somewhere. I would guess it's as rare if not moreso than three sister's form of internal arts.



Everything has an origin. Veracity of the origin though is always circumspect.


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## Zenjael (Mar 14, 2012)

> Well that pretty wild & wicked especially since Yin Fu wasn't born  until 1840 & didn't meet Dong Haichuan until 1864-ish.



From what I've read thus far it seems there have been up to as many as 6 people taught circle walking by daoist priests either in passing, or through extended learning and initiation. Which is the real one? Are any?

As I said, it wasn't until around 1850 when shishi baguazhang became recognized as distinct, and as I also said, it shares elements with Yin style though is different. If there is a distinct origin to bagua, it came about long ago when people harmonized martial arts with daoist meditation techniques. I wouldn't be surprised, when people finally did recognize the style, that it can become confusing which styles originated when, definitively, in relation to others.

Quite a few modern styles are really from the same tree of the art, with few being altogether different, but still bagua. Shishi is like that.


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Shishi is like that.



Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother. In fact, when she was in kindergarten on the mainland, she wanted to go to the bathroom in school and told the teacher she wanted to go "shishi". The teacher did not know what she was talking about and she ended up peeing in her pants because of that misunderstanding. So in my mind I am wondering why a style would have that as part of its name.


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## Zenjael (Mar 14, 2012)

Shishi baguazhang merges element of dog style gong fu with lion baguazhang. Lion-dog is a type of mythical beast, I believe also called a Quiron, or guardian lion--dogs. As baguazhang is often reactive, and thus self-defense oriented by nature, the association of styles and elements of philosophy I suppose ultimately ended up with it being named shishi (Mandarin Chinese) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_lion

I have been wrong on a number of things, and I admit I may be so now, but I understand that the name was derived from it using lion and dog style techniques for grounding. In this it received its name after the mythical animal.


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## geezer (Mar 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate.



"Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that _onomato-pee-ia_?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 14, 2012)

geezer said:


> "Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that _onomato-pee-ia_?



actually I belevie it is the Mandarin version of potty


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## puunui (Mar 14, 2012)

geezer said:


> "Shishi means "to Pee"? Sounds like a case of onomatapoeia... or is that _onomato-pee-ia_?



As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2012)

> From what I've read thus far it seems there have been up to as many as 6 people taught circle walking by daoist priests either in passing, or through extended learning and initiation. Which is the real one? Are any?


Lots of claims are made of people training with Daoist priest in walking circle. Walking circle is a Daoist religious practice many people learn it and have nothing to do with Baguazhang at all. We do not even know if Dong Haichuan learned this directly from a certain Daoist sect or not, if he mixed his own style with it or what ever theories floating around.
Some say Dong Haichuan's teacher was Bi Deng Xia who also had 2 students
Song Yi Ren and Wing Wen Tian. Some say the other 2 students were Li, Zhen-Qing and Ma, Yun-Cheng (Bi Yue-Xia) So again there is not enough to go on its similar to Zhan San Feng. 
http://ymaa.com/article/the-history-of-baguazhang
http://www.csghs.tp.edu.tw/~chic/page_m/n3-2.html
http://www.daoisms.org/article/sort015/info-50.html
http://www.artx.cn/artx/wushu/32455.html
http://qkzz.net/Announce/Announce.asp?BoardID=12200&ID=20854



> As I said, it wasn't until around 1850 when shishi baguazhang became recognized as distinct, and as I also said, it shares elements with Yin style though is different. If there is a distinct origin to bagua, it came about long ago when people harmonized martial arts with daoist meditation techniques. I wouldn't be surprised, when people finally did recognize the style, that it can become confusing which styles originated when, definitively, in relation to others.


 It is estimated Dong Hai Chuan taught in Beijing in the time period between 1850-1860. Given that Yin was born around 1840 and was taught late 1850's to 1860's
depending on who you ask. This would mean if Shi Shi Baguazhang was a distinct Bagua style it would 1.predate or be at the same time Dong Hai Chuan's Baguazhang style.
2. It could not share elements of Yin style because Yin Fu did not train in Baguazhang till late 1850's 1860's and most likely wasn't teaching for a bit since Ma Gui is considered Yin Fu earliest recorded student around mid 1870's.


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## Zenjael (Mar 14, 2012)

> Walking circle is a Daoist religious practice many people learn it and have nothing to do with Baguazhang at all.



I am happy to see someone who has their eyes so open to the history of baguazhang. A lot of people learn the art and only of a few masters before, I like that you have such an eye to detail.



> It could not share elements of Yin style because Yin Fu did not train in  Baguazhang till late 1850's 1860's and most likely wasn't teaching for a  bit since Ma Gui is considered Yin Fu earliest recorded student around  mid 1870's.



For me, the history of Bagua is murky. It seems there are two theories, historically, as to where Bagua could have originated. At least to me it seems to me these are the only alternatives; either it was founded by a person, or it is a coalescence of multiple styles, incorporating daoist tenets and practices. I feel that baguazhang as a style, being martial arts which had incorporated circle walking, was in existence long before the 18th century. When it came to 'exist' in the mid 19th century, I lean more toward it being finally recognized, as opposed to suddenly being conjured up. Every now and again a very obscure style will appear, or reappear, though this of course is not related to just baguazhang.

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2012)

> I am happy to see someone who has their eyes so open to the history of baguazhang. A lot of people learn the art and only of a few masters before, I like that you have such an eye to detail.


 I am not as well versed in Baguazhang history to me it is boring as Taijiquan history. Circle walking in Daoism is called Zhou Tian Shu &#21608;&#22825;&#26415; Circle of Heaven.
   It is not so much a Baguazhang exercise it is according to stories a source, factor, influence that *may* had a hand in Dong Haichuan creating Baguazhang.
We do see circle walking as done as early as Chou dynasty with the dance of Yu. As of yet there is not enough evidence to support anything before Dong Haichuan or is not some how connected with Dong Haichuan or his line.



> For me, the history of Bagua is murky. It seems there are two theories, historically, as to where Bagua could have originated. At least to me it seems to me these are the only alternatives; either it was founded by a person, or it is a coalescence of multiple styles, incorporating daoist tenets and practices.


Again we do not know if Dong Haichuan learned from Daoist, people who claim they were Daoist, did he mix it with a style he already knew or was it already created for him,
Did other people influence him when he was in Beijing.
The circle walking he may have learned may have looked like this:





I think the history of Baguazhang will be like Taijiquan we just don't have enough to go on.


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## oaktree (Mar 14, 2012)

> I feel that baguazhang as a style, being martial arts which had incorporated circle walking, was in existence long before the 18th century. When it came to 'exist' in the mid 19th century, I lean more toward it being finally recognized, as opposed to suddenly being conjured up. Every now and again a very obscure style will appear, or reappear, though this of course is not related to just baguazhang.


 It may have been but as of yet no proof to support it or it may have died out.  What evidence do you have that supports Baguazhang existed before Dong Haichuan? 


> I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.



What elements prior to Dong Haichuan  show that there was a baguazhang prototype? We have theories but no evidence to support it.
 In fact we have contradicting stories that Dong Haichuan knew only 2 palms, or he created the Bagua palms with his previous martial art training to learning 8 palm changes.


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## mukashimantis (Mar 15, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> You may find it hard to back that up, you know... especially when it comes to the Japanese systems. But, for the record, jujutsu isn't what has become extinct in some forms, but specific Ryu of jujutsu are. There's quite a distinction there...
> 
> 
> Not hard to back up at all. I have been researching various MA's for many years. I can tell you that ( as a historian ) , more of knowledge is lost than we have records of, prior to the last 10 years or so. While some areas of knowlewdge are better documented, many martial arts were not. Whether due to secrecy, lack of forethought, or the idea that things will last forever. Look at the US Apollo moon missions, and the loss of material knowledge there. If you haven't already, try finding written records of JiuJitsu styles or other systems. A previous poster mentioned a list of Ryu that are known to be lost. Those Ryu may have had different styles of their respective arts.
> ...


.


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## frank raud (Mar 15, 2012)

I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.[/QUOTE]

As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles? Are you familiar with the history of judo(Mixture of Kito-ryu and Tenshin-ryu, with a mix of techniques from other styles) Wado-ryu(karate and Jiu jutsu), kajukenbo, Tae Kwon Do, etc. etc, etc.? Most arts are a composite of other arts, the succesful ones stick around, the less successful either become extinct or merged into another style and are no longer practiced as a separate art. As well, there is no connection between Taekyon and Tae Kwon do.


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## Instructor (Mar 15, 2012)

frank raud said:


> I believe baguazhang, or elements close enough to be akin to how Taekyon is to Tae Kwon Do, that one can say Baguazhang existed prior to the 1940s. It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.
> 
> As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles? Are you familiar with the history of judo(Mixture of Kito-ryu and Tenshin-ryu, with a mix of techniques from other styles) Wado-ryu(karate and Jiu jutsu), kajukenbo, Tae Kwon Do, etc. etc, etc.? Most arts are a composite of other arts, the succesful ones stick around, the less successful either become extinct or merged into another style and are no longer practiced as a separate art. As well, there is no connection between Taekyon and Tae Kwon do.



In a way all styles are built upon or inspired by other styles.  No style is created in a vacuum.  Each has built on what came before it from the beginning till now.  If you start at the leaves and follow the twigs to the branches and the branches to the limbs...sooner or later you will get to the roots.  Great respect for Bagua by the way.


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## Zenjael (Mar 16, 2012)

> As a historian, you find it difficult to beleive that a style could be made up of other styles?



Not in the least, we are in agreement, I believe most styles originated from past styles. The term dying out seems a bit crude, it seems to me most arts evolve into new manifestations, growing, and changing from teacher to student, and so on.

Success is an arbitrary word. Is Wing Chun more successful than Ninjutsu, or MMA? I think the term worthless. If the art exists, than its truth will be expressed through the practitioner.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taekwondo

The history section more or less supports popular theory for where TKD originated.



> In a way all styles are built upon or inspired by other styles.  No  style is created in a vacuum.  Each has built on what came before it  from the beginning till now.  If you start at the leaves and follow the  twigs to the branches and the branches to the limbs...sooner or later  you will get to the roots.  Great respect for Bagua by the way.



It is true, the more you learn, the more you return to the basics full circle, and in turn, grow more.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 16, 2012)

puunui said:


> Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother. In fact, when she was in kindergarten on the mainland, she wanted to go to the bathroom in school and told the teacher she wanted to go "shishi". The teacher did not know what she was talking about and she ended up peeing in her pants because of that misunderstanding. So in my mind I am wondering why a style would have that as part of its name.





puunui said:


> As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.



The thing to remember with Japanese is that the language is made up of only about 24 syllables, so such blanket comments really can't be made without knowing the context and kanji associated... for instance, "Shishi" can also be "to turn and face", amongst other things, including the guard Lion-dogs.


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## frank raud (Mar 16, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> Not in the least, we are in agreement, I believe most styles originated from past styles. The term dying out seems a bit crude, it seems to me most arts evolve into new manifestations, growing, and changing from teacher to student, and so on.
> 
> *If you believe most styles originated from past styles, how can you state  *_It is incredibly difficult to create a style, merged from others. Not impossible, but the story just doesn't add up to me, as a historian.
> 
> ...



Many arts evolve, but many arts die out. Family arts die when the next generation is not interested.


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## pgsmith (Mar 16, 2012)

> Many arts evolve, but many arts die out. Family arts die when the next generation is not interested.


  I think it is mainly a matter of semantics. In my opinion, very few arts have died out. However, many, many schools and lines of an art have died out. For example, Kage ryu is a school of kenjutsu which utilizes a very large sword, which they call a chokken. It is on the verge of dying out as it is difficult to master, and there is not much interest from the younger generation in carrying the school on. When it dies that school will be extinct, but the _art_ of kenjutsu will still be alive through other schools.


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## puunui (Mar 16, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> The thing to remember with Japanese is that the language is made up of only about 24 syllables, so such blanket comments really can't be made without knowing the context and kanji associated... for instance, "Shishi" can also be "to turn and face", amongst other things, including the guard Lion-dogs.



I didn't make any "blanket statements" about the Japanese language. We are talking about a chinese martial art name. And I did the google search thing too, and I have lion dogs at my house. My point (which I think you missed), was subtle, but I think others picked up on it, so it's ok.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 16, 2012)

As I said...shishi (pinyin - xixi) is used in Beijing Mandarin meaning potty...meaning said to small childern

Where is the Bathroom in Mandarin = Xi shou jian zai nar

Ergo for a small child it has become XiXi (sheeshee)


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## itto_seki (Mar 16, 2012)

pgsmith said:


> I think it is mainly a matter of semantics. In my opinion, very few arts have died out. However, many, many schools and lines of an art have died out. For example, Kage ryu is a school of kenjutsu which utilizes a very large sword, which they call a chokken. It is on the verge of dying out as it is difficult to master, and there is not much interest from the younger generation in carrying the school on. When it dies that school will be extinct, but the _art_ of kenjutsu will still be alive through other schools.


  Hello, a couple of things that I'd like to point out. Kage ryu is a battojutsu art, so it's drawing with the longsword or choken. Secondly, there are a small number of students who still train in the art, so I wouldn't say that it's on the verge of dying out (I'm a bit of an optimist).


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## Chris Parker (Mar 17, 2012)

puunui said:


> I didn't make any "blanket statements" about the Japanese language. We are talking about a chinese martial art name. And I did the google search thing too, and I have lion dogs at my house. My point (which I think you missed), was subtle, but I think others picked up on it, so it's ok.



You stated that:



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> Here, the term "shishi" means urine or to urinate. I thought it was a japanese term but I am not so sure because my wife (who is half chinese) grew up with that term as well from her chinese mother.




followed by:



			
				puunui said:
			
		

> As it happens I was on the telephone today with a native japanese speaker about something and asked her. She said that the proper japanese word would be "oshiko", and shishi would be a shortened slang version used for children.




So you have attributed a Japanese usage to a (Chinese) term without even knowing the characters used to write it, stating as a fact that "here, the term means", when there was really no evidence at all. The implication was that the term "shishi" could only have the one interpretation, which is a blanket statement as regards to the word, which you were giving a Japanese reference.

As regards your point, you seemed to be wanting to belittle the system that Alex was claiming, but your method was flawed from the outset on a range of points. That was my point. Maybe you missed it.



itto_seki said:


> Hello, a couple of things that I'd like to point out. Kage ryu is a battojutsu art, so it's drawing with the longsword or choken. Secondly, there are a small number of students who still train in the art, so I wouldn't say that it's on the verge of dying out (I'm a bit of an optimist).



With the Kage Ryu, there are really only a handful of aging members left, with little interest in the younger generation in continuing the art, which I feel is what Paul was talking about. There have been seminars on the system (in Canada, at least), but not much more. Honestly, I agree with Paul that the system is in danger of dying out, but, like you, I remain hopeful that it will manage to continue.


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> So you have attributed a Japanese usage to a (Chinese) term without even knowing the characters used to write it, stating as a fact that "here, the term means", when there was really no evidence at all. The implication was that the term "shishi" could only have the one interpretation, which is a blanket statement as regards to the word, which you were giving a Japanese reference.



Sorry, incorrect.



Chris Parker said:


> As regards your point, you seemed to be wanting to belittle the system that Alex was claiming,



Wrong again. 




Chris Parker said:


> but your method was flawed from the outset on a range of points. That was my point. Maybe you missed it.



From my perspective, the point of your post seem to be opportunities to showcase your google and you tube search skills, which I have to say is pretty good. Better than me. Take this particular situation, there was a phrase discussed "shishi" which you probably hadn't heard before and instead of saying "i didn't know that" and moving on like most people, you did a google search on it, and then proceeded to write a post based on that.


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> As I said...shishi (pinyin - xixi) is used in Beijing Mandarin meaning potty...meaning said to small childern
> 
> Where is the Bathroom in Mandarin = Xi shou jian zai nar
> 
> Ergo for a small child it has become XiXi (sheeshee)



Thanks for your response. My wife didn't grow up in hawaii, so we were trying to figure out why her mother used the term with her as well. Her grandparents spoke mandarin (don't know which dialect) so your post explains it. Thanks again.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> Sorry, incorrect.
> 
> Wrong again.
> 
> From my perspective, the point of your post seem to be opportunities to showcase your google and you tube search skills, which I have to say is pretty good. Better than me. Take this particular situation, there was a phrase discussed "shishi" which you probably hadn't heard before and instead of saying "i didn't know that" and moving on like most people, you did a google search on it, and then proceeded to write a post based on that.



Sorry, incorrect. Wrong again, Glenn. There was no google involved, and you really don't get what my reference material is...


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> Thanks for your response. My wife didn't grow up in hawaii, so we were trying to figure out why her mother used the term with her as well. Her grandparents spoke mandarin (don't know which dialect) so your post explains it. Thanks again.



Mandarin is the dialect I just know it is used by Beijingren (people who are from Beijing where they speak Mandarin)


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> There was no google involved, and you really don't get what my reference material is...



Is that where you really want to go, comparing reference materials? And actually, I do. We all do. It's not some big secret. You cite to a lot of webpages and youtube videos in your posts.


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## puunui (Mar 18, 2012)

Xue Sheng said:


> Mandarin is the dialect I just know it is used by Beijingren (people who are from Beijing where they speak Mandarin)



I think learning the chinese language is much harder than korean or japanese because there are so many dialects. korean and japanese tend to be similar in that they are quite monotone, especially when compared to chinese, where pitch (I don't know if that is the correct word) or even emphasis on syllables can change meanings.


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 18, 2012)

puunui said:


> I think learning the chinese language is much harder than korean or japanese because there are so many dialects. korean and japanese tend to be similar in that they are quite monotone, especially when compared to chinese, where pitch (I don't know if that is the correct word) or even emphasis on syllables can change meanings.



Basically yhou pick a dailect and go with it and if someone is trying to decide which one to learn I always say Mandarin since just about anyone 60 years or less speaks it and you are only concerned with 4 tones.

Cantonese is also popular but spoken mostly in South China (Hong Kong and Guangzhou) and in most (not all) of the Chinatowns in the USA and there are 6 tones

The other 5, if you look at traditional classifications, are not as wide spread

I tried to learn Mandarin and Cantonese at the same time many years ago and when I was done I was so confused I could speak neither of them. Now I ONLY work on Mandarin


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## Langenschwert (Mar 19, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> With the Kage Ryu, there are really only a handful of aging members left, with little interest in the younger generation in continuing the art, which I feel is what Paul was talking about. There have been seminars on the system (in Canada, at least), but not much more. Honestly, I agree with Paul that the system is in danger of dying out, but, like you, I remain hopeful that it will manage to continue.



Hi Chris,

This information was true at one point, but is thankfully out of date. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Chris Parker (Mar 21, 2012)

puunui said:


> Is that where you really want to go, comparing reference materials? And actually, I do. We all do. It's not some big secret. You cite to a lot of webpages and youtube videos in your posts.



Being able to find websites and clips that back up what I'm saying doesn't mean that that's where I got the information from in the first place, Glenn. It just shows that there is backup for what I'm saying. Most of my information and understanding comes from experience, outside reading, conversing with practitioners of a range of systems, and so on, with "google/you-tube" playing a backup role at best. A lot of that conversation with practitioners takes place privately and personally, but sometimes it happens publicly, and everyone gets to see it. Case in point:



Langenschwert said:


> Hi Chris,
> 
> This information was true at one point, but is thankfully out of date.
> 
> ...



Thanks, Mark! Great to hear! I take it this means that there are some newer-generation students coming through, rather than meaning the new branch established a number of years ago, yeah?

Oh, and just as an aside, Glenn, you recently told pgsmith that you feel that what he does is more difficult that your systems, due to it's attention to detail... you do realise that (different system) I do the same thing, along with a number of other systems, yeah? Again, my information taken from google and you-tube is distinctly in the minority, with experience being a much larger part of it all. With the idea of alternate readings for "Shishi" from a Japanese perspective, the information I was referring to isn't really found online anywhere... but it comes from the kata names from a couple of the systems I study.


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## puunui (Mar 21, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Being able to find websites and clips that back up what I'm saying doesn't mean that that's where I got the information from in the first place, Glenn. It just shows that there is backup for what I'm saying. Most of my information and understanding comes from experience, outside reading, conversing with practitioners of a range of systems, and so on, with "google/you-tube" playing a backup role at best. A lot of that conversation with practitioners takes place privately and personally, but sometimes it happens publicly, and everyone gets to see it



If you say so.


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## puunui (Mar 21, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Oh, and just as an aside, Glenn, you recently told pgsmith that you feel that what he does is more difficult that your systems, due to it's attention to detail... you do realise that (different system) I do the same thing, along with a number of other systems, yeah? Again, my information taken from google and you-tube is distinctly in the minority, with experience being a much larger part of it all. With the idea of alternate readings for "Shishi" from a Japanese perspective, the information I was referring to isn't really found online anywhere... but it comes from the kata names from a couple of the systems I study.



Again, if you say so. Excuse me if you reading your posts gives me a different perspective and opinion on what you are doing.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 22, 2012)

Fine, if you want to play that way, can you find, using Google, where the following techniques are, and what the translations are?

Shishi Geki
Shishi Tsuke
Shishi Kudaki
Shishi Gaeshi.

Two different systems, one section of one, two sections of another.

Off you go.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

Forgive me again, but I am just not that interested in playing your games.


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## Instructor (Mar 22, 2012)

Any guesses why Tae Kwon Do gained such a large following?  It's one of the few martial arts you can find almost anywhere in the U.S.


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## puunui (Mar 22, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Any guesses why Tae Kwon Do gained such a large following?  It's one of the few martial arts you can find almost anywhere in the U.S.



Sure. Thousands of motivated instructors came from Korea, who taught American students who went on to open their own schools. Taekwondo is large because there were more instructors for that than any other style, ever.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 23, 2012)

Instructor said:


> Can you think of an example of where it has been tried (resurrection)? How did it fall short of the mark and conversely did something good come out of it?


None: you cannot resurrect the style without living practitioners and an unbroken line.  You can, however, re-_construct_ a style.  A number of European sword styles have been reconstructed via training manuals and pertinent material of the period that is still extant.  While I do believe that there is merit in legitimately recontructing a style (as opposed to simply appropriating the name and applying it to something else), you still have a reconstructed style, not the original style.  Reading training manuals means that you are interpreting static pictures on a page and inferring the motions that link them or are interpreting a technical description in text form only.  Or both.  

Take a look at the Kukkiwon textbook; it is as technically detailed as is humanly possible and you still would be unable to learn many of the subtleties of the art.  If you look at the captioned pictures, you see a form one way.  If you watch a video of the same form, it is seen in a different way.  Neither is the same as being taught the form by a knowledgeable instructor.  Since neither video nor knowledgeable instructors for lost arts exist, the reconstructed art is, by necessity, a different art.  

That doesn't mean that it is bad or without merit; it simply is a new style at that point.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 24, 2012)

puunui said:


> Forgive me again, but I am just not that interested in playing your games.



So you made an accusation, and when challenged, refuse to back it up? Nice. Maybe you should remember this next time you suggest such things, Glenn.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> None: you cannot resurrect the style without living practitioners and an unbroken line.



It's been claimed, though, Daniel... just so you know. The success is another question, but resurrecting a system with no real method of reconstruction has been done....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 24, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> It's been claimed, though, Daniel... just so you know. The success is another question, but resurrecting a system with no real method of reconstruction has been done....


Not sure who claimed it, and if they do claim it, then fine; that is between them and their members.  But if there are no living practitioners, then the best you have is either reconstruction or appropriating the name to apply to something new.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 25, 2012)

Ha, I'm not arguing with your assessment, just saying it's happened... one example would be Tanemura of the Genbukan, who at one point was teaching Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu... which died out centuries ago with no continuation. Some of the schools that claim to come from it exist, but not the system itself. He no longer claims it, by the way....


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 26, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, I'm not arguing with your assessment, just saying it's happened...


I didn't think that you were; that was for the benefit of other readers. 



Chris Parker said:


> one example would be Tanemura of the Genbukan, who at one point was teaching Hakuun Ryu Ninjutsu... which died out centuries ago with no continuation. Some of the schools that claim to come from it exist, but not the system itself. He no longer claims it, by the way....


What was his basis for the claim?  I know that reconstructed European sword systems are reconstructed with extant manuscripts and training manuals.  Did he have any of these or did he read up on them and say, 'hey, that's what we do'?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 26, 2012)

On a flight to LA he heard a voice from heaven instructing him to resurrect the Ryu, as he was the first worthy inheritor in hundreds of years, and it was time for the art to live again. When Michael Coleman picked him up at the airport, he had tears in his eyes.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 26, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> On a flight to LA he heard a voice from heaven instructing him to resurrect the Ryu, as he was the first worthy inheritor in hundreds of years, and it was time for the art to live again. When Michael Coleman picked him up at the airport, he had tears in his eyes.


Heaven must be very disappointed that he has allowed the ryu to die again.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 26, 2012)

It occurs to me that there is an analogy to be made between the development/ evolution/ extinction of martial arts systems and the same processes that occur in folk music.

Any song that exists was originally written by a specific person in a specific form. As the years go by, the following processes can occur:

The composer performs the song differently at different times, altering elements of the melody, the lyrics, or the style.
New musicians learn the song, but remember it slightly differently so that the melody and/or the lyrics evolve in different ways over generations.
New musicians borrow elements of one song and insert them into another.
New musicians make the deliberate decision to rewrite a song, altering the lyrics or the melody or the style or the instrumentation.

As a result, you can look around the world of folk music and find:

Songs that have the same melody but completely different lyrics.
Songs that have the same (more or less) lyrics, but different melodies.
Songs that tell the same story, but with the lyrics substantially changed around.
Individual lyrics or melodic phrases which have been transplanted into multiple songs which are otherwise completely different.
The same song performed in completely different styles - altering the final sound as drastically as completely changing the lyrics or melody.

It seems to me that you can find plenty of examples along these same lines in the martial arts. (I suppose in this analogy, the koryu folks are the equivalent of ensembles performing classical repetoire playing period instruments and using period tunings.)

From this perspective, whether you consider a given song or martial art to be extinct probably depends on your definitions. Is a particular song "extinct" if no one know exactly what the original melody was? What about if the lyrics to the chorus have been transplanted into half a dozen other songs over the years? What if there are two different melodies which are commonly used for the song and no one knows which (if either) was the original?

Just a thought. My brain is wandering in odd directions this morning.


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## frank raud (Mar 26, 2012)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It occurs to me that there is an analogy to be made between the development/ evolution/ extinction of martial arts systems and the same processes that occur in folk music.
> 
> Any song that exists was originally written by a specific person in a specific form. As the years go by, the following processes can occur:
> 
> ...



Tony, interesting comparison. I know within the blues, there have always been "floating verses", lyrics that pop up either as a single line or an entire stanza, in many songs and often in many different regional styles. You might compare these to the common techniques that are done essentially the same way in multiple arts, be it a punch or a kick. These are the cliched lyrics that everyone knows(I feel so bad, Blues coming down, Hard times, etc.)There are regional styles and artists whose every note has been studied and reproduced faithfully, there is plenty that have heavily influenced rock and roll, which sounds nothing like the original, but it is obvious what the root music is. There are also original artists, whose music has become standards, yet no one does it the way the original artist did the song.(Big Joe Williams being a prime example. Many version of Baby please dont go, but to my knowledge no one using a homemade 9 string guitar to attempt to reproduce Big Joe's sound). 

I considered Big Joe's sound to have died with him, although his music lives on in different forms.


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> So you made an accusation, and when challenged, refuse to back it up? Nice.



If you consider not wanting to waste time on your games the same thing as the above, then yes, it is nice. Maybe you have a shelf or two of books, but everyone knows that you are a google and youtube guy. It's not a big secret. I use google and youtube too, we all do, just not to the extent that you go for it. 




Chris Parker said:


> Maybe you should remember this next time you suggest such things, Glenn.



You really care about what others think, don't you?


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## puunui (Mar 27, 2012)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not sure who claimed it, and if they do claim it, then fine; that is between them and their members.  But if there are no living practitioners, then the best you have is either reconstruction or appropriating the name to apply to something new.



There are groups in korea that have attempted to resurrect the martial arts shown in the muyedobotongji. I saw a demonstration once. I don't know if it was an accurate depiction though. But they looked like they worked hard on what they were doing.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 27, 2012)

puunui said:


> There are groups in korea that have attempted to resurrect the martial arts shown in the muyedobotongji. I saw a demonstration once. I don't know if it was an accurate depiction though. But they looked like they worked hard on what they were doing.


I would classify that as reconstruction, not resurrection.  Though that is not a bad thing.  I have great respect for anyone trying to painstakingly piece together a style from historical manuscripts and training manuals.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 28, 2012)

puunui said:


> If you consider not wanting to waste time on your games the same thing as the above, then yes, it is nice. Maybe you have a shelf or two of books, but everyone knows that you are a google and youtube guy. It's not a big secret. I use google and youtube too, we all do, just not to the extent that you go for it.
> 
> You really care about what others think, don't you?



No, not really Glenn... but I do care about being misrepresented, painted in an unflattering and inaccurate light, and having people (you, really) attempt to undermine my comments with baseless accusations when you can't actually argue against what I've said. You were provided an opportunity to either apologize, or back up your accusations publicly, and instead you gave a snide cop-out line. Personally, I think that says a fair amount about the way you conduct yourself.

I'd ask for an apology, but you really don't have the class for it.


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## puunui (Mar 28, 2012)

Chris Parker said:


> No, not really Glenn... but I do care about being misrepresented, painted in an unflattering and inaccurate light, and having people (you, really) attempt to undermine my comments with baseless accusations when you can't actually argue against what I've said.



Is that what you really think, or is that what you wish us to believe?  Funny you would accuse me of that, since that seems to be exactly what you do to me and others on MT. Check the mirror Parker Sensei.



Chris Parker said:


> You were provided an opportunity to either apologize, or back up your accusations publicly, and instead you gave a snide cop-out line. Personally, I think that says a fair amount about the way you conduct yourself. I'd ask for an apology, but you really don't have the class for it.



Apologize for what? Everyone seems to know the truth, except perhaps for you.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 28, 2012)

Maybe its time to take it to PM guys.


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