# Then vs. Now Differences



## dvcochran (Apr 17, 2019)

I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today. Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class? Can you provide then vs. now examples of how your classes are different?


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 18, 2019)

Train smarter - not harder. We did stuff that was not great for the body like certain  stretches and endless kicking on heavier and heavier bags.   Each instructor can be better  teachers than the instructors they had because they had better instructors than their predecessors.   Access to information is so much better with the internet and videos. (I guess I am thinking more like  3+ years ago. )   we also owe a deb of gratitude to thinks like MMA fights to show us what works.  Of course their is still no substitute for experience.


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## Buka (Apr 18, 2019)

I think it depends on the particular school. A little over thirty years ago I was training Tae-Kwon-Do (as well as American Karate). But the Tae-Kwon-Do I was training was completely different than any other Tae-Kwon-Do I saw back then. Or now for that matter.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2019)

I am reminded of one of my teachers talking about his early days in the 1960s and 1970s.  Sounds like they basically beat the crap out of each other.  He has had both hips replaced, not to mention shoulder issues.  

People like to reminisce about the “good old days”.  I don’t buy it.  People gotta train smart.  Beating the crap out of each other is not training smart.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 19, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sounds like they basically beat the crap out of each other.  He has had both hips replaced, not to mention shoulder issues.



Made for some great memories at the typical small storefront school maybe 40 feet wide by 80 feet long. People literally bounced off the walls, and we had to put a half wall a few feet in front ot the front door because a few people went out the door and almost into the street.  No foam dipped gear yet. Had elastic shin / instep protectors with some pads. Similar for the hands. When sweat soaked tough to get off as  were the drawstrings for the pants (No elastic yet. ) and all cotton uniforms (no Poly cotton yet)  weighed a ton when sweat soaked.


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## jobo (Apr 19, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Made for some great memories at the typical small storefront school maybe 40 feet wide by 80 feet long. People literally bounced off the walls, and we had to put a half wall a few feet in front ot the front door because a few people went out the door and almost into the street.  No foam dipped gear yet. Had elastic shin / instep protectors with some pads. Similar for the hands. When sweat soaked tough to get off as  were the drawstrings for the pants (No elastic yet. ) and all cotton uniforms (no Poly cotton yet)  weighed a ton when sweat soaked.


you were training before they invented elastic ? how old are you, did they have no zips either


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

jobo said:


> you were training before they invented elastic ? how old are you, did they have no zips either


Earl's ancient, man. Their cardio was opening the door and letting in a sabre-toothed tiger to run from.


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## dvcochran (Apr 19, 2019)

jobo said:


> you were training before they invented elastic ? how old are you, did they have no zips either


Read. The post clearly says he wore elastic pads.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today. Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class? Can you provide then vs. now examples of how your classes are different?



How about compared to 40 years ago?

We had takedowns, low kicks, in close fight training, did not care about points, did not limit striking areas, there were no kids classes, we had fewer belt ranks, and we didn't have padding for sparring. And other than the addition of padding and training kids, which I think are good things, the rest appears to be missing from every TKD class I have seen and it does not seem to be trained based on every TKD person I have talked to, and this is a bad thing.


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today.



Sure. Because in 1968 things were different. We didn't have dojangs, we just trained in whatever space was available. We didn't have all the nifty sparring gear, we just sparred bare knuckle. Sparring rules have changed some, with the removal of things like groin shots, sweeps, and takedowns. But that's an organizational thing, and there's nothing stopping anyone who wants to adopt a more flexible ruleset from doing so. I certainly do, with some students.



> Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class?



No. Why would I? That's nothing more than egotism.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 19, 2019)

On the point about a less-tenured instructor leading class, I'm with @Dirty Dog - it's not a problem. Well, it is in some cases, when you want to be a student and the other instructor wants to hand over the class. Not a big problem, but sometimes I just want to play student.

Going in the other direction, the dojo I teach at now has classes taught by instructors (other students of the owner's instructor) who outrank the owner. It doesn't seem to phase anyone, even when the dojo owner is attending class. I just don't see a lot of ego on display in that dojo.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 19, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> On the point about a less-tenured instructor leading class, I'm with @Dirty Dog - it's not a problem. Well, it is in some cases, when you want to be a student and the other instructor wants to hand over the class. Not a big problem, but sometimes I just want to play student.
> 
> Going in the other direction, the dojo I teach at now has classes taught by instructors (other students of the owner's instructor) who outrank the owner. It doesn't seem to phase anyone, even when the dojo owner is attending class. I just don't see a lot of ego on display in that dojo.



Heck, I am older than most folks I would be taught by these days.... no big deal to me either


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## skribs (Apr 19, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today. Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class? Can you provide then vs. now examples of how your classes are different?



I don't know how much of it is a difference in TKD, vs. a difference in dojang.  The biggest thing I can think of is that the tournaments had different rules.

*When I was a kid*, (1995-1999) we had "light contact" and "full contact" divisions.  The light contact divisions were where if you got a point, you stopped and were awarded the point, and after 3 points you won.  The "full contact" divisions were the manual electric scoring, where the 3 corner judges would have the "gameboy" and if they all put in a point at the same time, you got a point.

*As an adult* (2013-2019), we have that system, although I don't know what they call it now (maybe "legacy scoring"), and the daedo system.  I don't really know what the sparring style was like for black belts back in the 90s, but I do know it's almost exclusively a "how can I kick the head" type of a game now. 

As to the other things in the school, I think the differences are less "1995 vs. 2019" and more "Master A vs. Master B."  My old school was more about teaching everything correct from the start to prevent bad habits from forming, my Master is more about gently molding the technique so beginners don't get overwhelmed.  My old school focused heavily on forms, sparring, and conditioning - with some self defense sprinkled in, and my Master focuses less on conditioning and more on self defense and combinations.

I haven't been back to my old dojang to see if things have changed over the last 20 years, but I do know that both schools are good, they just have different focuses and teaching styles.


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## dvcochran (Apr 19, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sure. Because in 1968 things were different. We didn't have dojangs, we just trained in whatever space was available. We didn't have all the nifty sparring gear, we just sparred bare knuckle. Sparring rules have changed some, with the removal of things like groin shots, sweeps, and takedowns. But that's an organizational thing, and there's nothing stopping anyone who wants to adopt a more flexible ruleset from doing so. I certainly do, with some students.
> 
> 
> 
> No. Why would I? That's nothing more than egotism.


I expected that response from some. To that point, I have never postured or belittled another instructor and if you saw me in class you would know there is no ego. I am often asked for input during class on specific elements which I am glad to offer. I have a very noticeable memory deficit and can often have trouble starting a form. After that I can do pretty good so I am cognizant of how I present information since I can see where it could be easy to think I don't know what I am talking about. 
My point to the post is an effort to help our Dojangs stay strong. My GM and I have a close relationship outside of class. He has talked a lot about some form of retirement to pursue other ventures (https://www.worldchristiantaekwondomission.com/) and wants to shore up as much as possible. If you think actively pursuing improvement within your Dojang is ego, so be it. 
Honestly, I am concerned that the purely social element of class is coming too much of the focus. Ideas on how to remediate this without cleaning house are greatly appreciated.


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## dvcochran (Apr 19, 2019)

QUOTE="gpseymour, post: 1958834, member: 27826"]On the point about a less-tenured instructor leading class, I'm with @Dirty Dog - it's not a problem. Well, it is in some cases, when you want to be a student and the other instructor wants to hand over the class. Not a big problem, but sometimes I just want to play student.

Going in the other direction, the dojo I teach at now has classes taught by instructors (other students of the owner's instructor) who outrank the owner. It doesn't seem to phase anyone, even when the dojo owner is attending class. I just don't see a lot of ego on display in that dojo.[/QUOTE]
I can relate to the "I just want to workout" factor and that does come into play. I do not want to nor honestly cannot become the full time instructor. Being highest in rank certainly is a big factor. Building ownership does as well but not so much to the point of the post.
Please read my response to @Dirty Dog; I did not intend the post to sound egotistical. Apologies.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 20, 2019)

jobo said:


> you were training before they invented elastic ? how old are you, did they have no zips either


No elastic in the waistband for the uniform pants.   Definitely no zippers in the uniform pants. 
How old am I? Suffice it to say when we trained the dinosaurs still roamed the earth


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 20, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> How about compared to 40 years ago?
> 
> We had takedowns, low kicks,.


Under some old rules (May have been ATA at the time)   Groin Kicks, sweeps and takedowns were allowed but you hd 3 seconds after a person was down to strike. Then you had to let them up.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> If you think actively pursuing improvement within your Dojang is ego, so be it.


I'm curious about this - I didn't see anything in his post that suggested he thought actively seeking improvement of the dojo was a problem.


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## dvcochran (Apr 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm curious about this - I didn't see anything in his post that suggested he thought actively seeking improvement of the dojo was a problem.


Fair enough but he did imply ego. I made an effort to explain I did not intend for the post to come off that way. Just looking for help and ideas.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 20, 2019)

I feel like the actual product in my dojang is similar, but the way we get there is different, more noticeably in kids classes. Attention spans aren’t what they used to be, so more creativity is required to disguise repetition. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 20, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I expected that response from some. To that point, I have never postured or belittled another instructor and if you saw me in class you would know there is no ego.



If being a student in a class run by someone younger/less experienced/lower ranked bothers you, then yes, there is ego.
And, the way the OP was written, it certainly implies some sort of issue with this situation. Ergo, an ego problem.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Fair enough but he did imply ego. I made an effort to explain I did not intend for the post to come off that way. Just looking for help and ideas.


I think he was saying having a problem with a less-tenured instructor would be a show of ego.


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## dvcochran (Apr 20, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think he was saying having a problem with a less-tenured instructor would be a show of ego.


Likely. It is not the time in grade so much as what/how they teach. Just frustrating for this old man sometimes. The same techniques can be taught but with such a different flavor.


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## dvcochran (Apr 20, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> If being a student in a class run by someone younger/less experienced/lower ranked bothers you, then yes, there is ego.
> And, the way the OP was written, it certainly implies some sort of issue with this situation. Ergo, an ego problem.


Had to disagree. It is more lamenting and worrying about the future. While I am there I feel a responsibility to effort change if needed. Looking for perspective to make sure I am seeing what I think I am. If you see that as ego, we disagree.


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## dvcochran (Apr 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Had to disagree. It is more lamenting and worrying about the future. While I am there I feel a responsibility to effort change if needed. Looking for perspective to make sure I am seeing what I think I am. If you see that as ego, we disagree.


The OP was written very general hoping to get a broad range of ideas. You seem to have fixated on it implying there is an issue with younger students. None what so ever and not the point of the post. Please do not try to derail it. If you feel the post heading needs rewording then please say so. Again, looking for ideas. 
Since you are unaware I have the highest rank and am one of the oldest students in our schools, therefore making it seldom I get to enjoy working out with higher rank/older students,  I can understand your general viewpoint. That is also irrelevant; Just looking for ideas.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The OP was written very general hoping to get a broad range of ideas. You seem to have fixated on it implying there is an issue with younger students. None what so ever and not the point of the post. Please do not try to derail it. If you feel the post heading needs rewording then please say so. Again, looking for ideas.
> Since you are unaware I have the highest rank and am one of the oldest students in our schools, therefore making it seldom I get to enjoy working out with higher rank/older students,  I can understand your general viewpoint. That is also irrelevant; Just looking for ideas.


Just a note: you loook like you’re talking to yourself.


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## mrt2 (Apr 21, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today. Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class? Can you provide then vs. now examples of how your classes are different?


1. I didn't do TKD 36 years ago, but I did practice Tang Soo Do, Moo Duk Kwan and my teacher was a Korean born master.  I currently study ITF style TKD.
2. I do not have a problem taking classes with a less tenured instructor.  My head instructor now is Master with over 40 years experience, and he is pretty careful to train his instructors to teach to his standards.  To the extent that, his son sometimes adds to the curicullum with, for example, boxing and MMA techniques, that is all beneficial in my mind, not because it will help me on my next grading, but because from the point of view of self defense, there is nothing wrong with learning to use, and defend against punches.
3.  Then vs. Now.
Then - Classes were almost 2 hours long. 
Now - classes are just 1 hour long.
Then - The senior student starts the class off 20 to 30 minutes of  calisthenics and stretch. 
Now - Students do whatever warm up they choose before class.  In actual class, the warm up generally pretty brief, since the instructors need to use most of the time to teach curicullum.
Then - We spent a lot of time on basic punches, kicks, and blocks. 
Now - We spend a moderate amount of time of basic punches, kicks and blocks.
Then - We rarely spent much time on the heavy bag, though we did do partner drills with pads.
Now - We do drills on the heavy bag almost every class.
Then - Sparring was done with minimal or no protection to the head, chest, or even groin.  Also, sparring was done every class.
Now - We spar with gloves, chest protector, head protection.shin and instep guards, and protective cups.  Because of the amount of time it takes to get all padded up, we do not spar every class.


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## JR 137 (Apr 21, 2019)

I’ll give you somewhat or a then vs now from my uncle’s perspective. I didn’t ask him directly for this, but I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. And I’ve posted some of it here at MT. He trained TKD in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s-70s, earning a 2nd or 3rd dan; then trained here in the late 90s-early 2000s, earning a 1st dan (perhaps unofficially? It’ll make sense)...

Then: No kids’ classes. Most students were late teens-mid 40s. 
Now: All ages, and he felt the teachers taught everyone except the very youngest kids the same way.

Then: They did the jumping/spinning/flashy kicks during line drills against the air for agility training purposes only. And every now and then with boards for demo purposes.
Now: They taught those techniques as sparring and even SD techniques.

Then: They kicked above the knee to rib and chest height regularly, and head height occasionally.
Now: They were to try to kick head height regularly and rib/chest height occasionally. Nothing below the belt. 

Then: The dojo owner taught just about every class. A senior student would run warmup and help with beginners or full in when the head guy couldn’t teach. 
Now: The head guy isn’t much more than a name and picture. He shows up occasionally and waves to the crowd, walks a few laps around the floor during a class when he’s there, and directs black belt tests. And it’s like it’s an honor to be in the same room as the guy. Classes are taught by a bunch of different people a bunch of different ages and ranks. Teens teach some classes.

Then: You paid a tuition rate every month that helped keep the place open and in good repair, and the head guy profited a few bucks from everyone, making it worth his time, but not making it a full time career.
Now: Long term contracts that aren’t cheap by any means, requirements to buy new stuff constantly, in-house tournaments that cost more money, and being nickled and dimed every time you turn around. He signed a contract that was supposed to cover all fees including 1st dan (tuition and tests for a flat rate regardless of how long it took). But every few promotions required a new uniform that wasn’t included and had to be bought through them, weapons that had to be bought through them, etc. Then he passes his 1st dan test. They wanted $200 for the belt. He reminded them he was on the “black belt plan” and their reply was the belt itself isn’t included because it’s part of the uniform. He told them to keep it and never went back.

Then: 1st dan took 5-10 years. Some people took longer than 10 years. You had to be able to fight.
Now: They say average time is 5 years. Everyone on the black belt plan gets theirs in about 2 years. And no, they’re not getting additional nor more specialized training. They have your money and aren’t getting more, so they’re hurrying you through to get you into the next contact.

Then: Many people failed tests. And multiple times for the same rank. 
Now: No one fails and everyone tests on time. The black belt plan people are somehow better than others and typically double promote a few times, especially earlier on. 

Then: There were 3 trophies for a competition - 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. And competition was once or twice a year tops. 
Now: there’s more trophies than competitors. And there’s a tournament every month or two.

Some of this is dojo vs dojo rather than then vs now. But there’s far, far more of the “now” people than the “then” people nowadays. I can’t speak for everywhere, but certainly everywhere I’ve been.

Every art has this, but TKD for some reason is the standard for this. It’s called “Take My Dough” around here for a reason. And that’s not other MA stylists saying that; it’s the general public. Quite sad IMO.


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## mrt2 (Apr 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ll give you somewhat or a then vs now from my uncle’s perspective. I didn’t ask him directly for this, but I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. And I’ve posted some of it here at MT. He trained TKD in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s-70s, earning a 2nd or 3rd dan; then trained here in the late 90s-early 2000s, earning a 1st dan (perhaps unofficially? It’ll make sense)...
> 
> Then: No kids’ classes. Most students were late teens-mid 40s.
> Now: All ages, and he felt the teachers taught everyone except the very youngest kids the same way.
> ...


Much of what you say is true, but not all.  Again, my experience in the past was with Tang Soo Do, which is sort of a cousin to TKD, and Karate.

1. Contracts.  Actually, I do remember those back in the day, as well as testing fees, and tournament fees.  It wasn't unreasonable, but it wasn't cheap, either.

2. Time to black belt.  For sure, there were not as many black belts then as there are now.  Testing was on a 3 month schedule, and while lots of people took longer, especially as people got up to the higher ranks of red belt, and Cho Dan Bo.  , it was almost unheard of to test more often. And the skill level expected for black belt back then was higher.  My recollection is, testing from Cho Dan Bo to 1st Dan was anything but automatic.  I would say there were a few rock stars who trained constantly who got to black belt in 3 years, but 4, or 5 years was probably more typical.  I trained for 3 years and did not make black belt.  By contrast now, while lots of folks drop out of TKD, most of those who stick with it make 1st Dan somewhere between 2 and 3 years.  2nd Dan takes much longer, and from what I can see, my current school's 2nd Dans are skill wise, where my former school's 1st Dans were.

3.  I don't remember a lot of folks failing tests then.  And I have seen students fail now.  (actually made me feel better about my current place, knowing they did have standards and would fail students if they failed to demonstrate the curriculum)

4.  Trophy inflation.  yes, that is true.  If you want participation souvenirs, maybe just hand out ribbons or T Shirts.  I walked out of my first and only tournament since I came back with two trophies and a medal, and frankly, it was not necessary.  I am sure it makes little kids feel good about themselves, but after age 7 or 8, they must realize it means nothing.


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## dvcochran (Apr 21, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ll give you somewhat or a then vs now from my uncle’s perspective. I didn’t ask him directly for this, but I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. And I’ve posted some of it here at MT. He trained TKD in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s-70s, earning a 2nd or 3rd dan; then trained here in the late 90s-early 2000s, earning a 1st dan (perhaps unofficially? It’ll make sense)...
> 
> Then: No kids’ classes. Most students were late teens-mid 40s.
> Now: All ages, and he felt the teachers taught everyone except the very youngest kids the same way.
> ...



Nail on the head for the most part. With the exception of BB plans and belts. It is appalling that they tried to charge him for a $10 belt after paying for a plan. Very sad. We do test every 3-4 months though not everyone test. Our GM is older but is physically there every class although does not engage with every class. He certainly isn't like the head guy you described. He is an 84 year old very educated Korean but very approachable.


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## dvcochran (Apr 21, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Much of what you say is true, but not all.  Again, my experience in the past was with Tang Soo Do, which is sort of a cousin to TKD, and Karate.
> 
> 1. Contracts.  Actually, I do remember those back in the day, as well as testing fees, and tournament fees.  It wasn't unreasonable, but it wasn't cheap, either.
> 
> ...



Your #2 bullet makes some very good points. How do you feel about the 1st Dan then vs. 2nd Dan now comparison? I would say there are a close number of 2nd Dan's now compared to 1st Dan's then so is it a wash? Does this make it ok in your opinion? To the outsider this can be misleading. Korean arts in general do seem to have the ability to advance at a faster pace, but like you said few people do it as fast as possible. 
Completely agree with #4. Why an adult needs even a ribbon is beyond me. I think a teaching point in class is being missed if that is their motivation.


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## dvcochran (Apr 21, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Just a note: you loook like you’re talking to yourself.


Yep. And to anyone else who can offer advise on the subject. It is usually how I noodle things out.
I am usually on the back side of my busy season but was talked into taking on two additional projects, one of which has expanded and I am being asked to do more. A good amount of money to be made but it also comes at a steep price in regards to time spent the way I desire it, or any free time for that matter. So I am stressing a little across the board. When my GM intimated about classes it put me in high gear.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Your #2 bullet makes some very good points. How do you feel about the 1st Dan then vs. 2nd Dan now comparison? I would say there are a close number of 2nd Dan's now compared to 1st Dan's then so is it a wash? Does this make it ok in your opinion? To the outsider this can be misleading. Korean arts in general do seem to have the ability to advance at a faster pace, but like you said few people do it as fast as possible.
> Completely agree with #4. Why an adult needs even a ribbon is beyond me. I think a teaching point in class is being missed if that is their motivation.


I'm not sure counting the number of people at a given rank is useful for comparison. If the art does well, you'd expect the number of people holding any given rank to rise over time - without needing any change in standards. That not happening is likely a sign of stagnation or decline.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ll give you somewhat or a then vs now from my uncle’s perspective. I didn’t ask him directly for this, but I’ve spoken to him about it in the past. And I’ve posted some of it here at MT. He trained TKD in Beirut, Lebanon in the 60s-70s, earning a 2nd or 3rd dan; then trained here in the late 90s-early 2000s, earning a 1st dan (perhaps unofficially? It’ll make sense)...
> 
> Then: No kids’ classes. Most students were late teens-mid 40s.
> Now: All ages, and he felt the teachers taught everyone except the very youngest kids the same way.
> ...



Yup, except we did not have competitions 40 years ago, and you tended to past tests, however you also only tested when the head of the school thought you were ready. It was not based on the amount of time you were at the school or how many classes you had taken, only on what the head guy thought. Things could be very different with him now, he is still teaching, but I can only go by what I experienced. 

Another thing, Olympic TKD was on the horizon and a group an the school was interested and wanted protective gear. Mr Kim thought that was pretty funny, because there was no padding in a fight. But he did split the class to those who were interested in the possible Olympic stuff and those that were interested in the regular stuff. It was the choice of the student.


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## RTKDCMB (Apr 22, 2019)

Drink breaks, we added drink breaks in classes, Didn't have them 30 years ago.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Much of what you say is true, but not all.  Again, my experience in the past was with Tang Soo Do, which is sort of a cousin to TKD, and Karate.
> 
> 1. Contracts.  Actually, I do remember those back in the day, as well as testing fees, and tournament fees.  It wasn't unreasonable, but it wasn't cheap, either.
> 
> ...


It’s dojo to dojo, and both are extreme opposites, but that was his experience.

But his then and now are closer to the norm overall than away from it IMO. Just what I’ve seen. Maybe I’m living in a vacuum, maybe not.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Yup, except we did not have competitions 40 years ago, and you tended to past tests, however you also only tested when the head of the school thought you were ready. It was not based on the amount of time you were at the school or how many classes you had taken, only on what the head guy thought. Things could be very different with him now, he is still teaching, but I can only go by what I experienced.
> 
> Another thing, Olympic TKD was on the horizon and a group an the school was interested and wanted protective gear. Mr Kim thought that was pretty funny, because there was no padding in a fight. But he did split the class to those who were interested in the possible Olympic stuff and those that were interested in the regular stuff. It was the choice of the student.


You know the “now” place I’m referring to, and many of the others around here either came from that place or are using their tricks. 

How far off is his “now” in your experience?


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 22, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> You know the “now” place I’m referring to, and many of the others around here either came from that place or are using their tricks.
> 
> How far off is his “now” in your experience?



How far is Seoul, South Korea from Washington DC.

Never once, when I was in TKD, did they ever give a belt, based on your good deed points and deny you a belt because you don't have those good deed points.... of course there were no kids classes to do that in either.


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## dvcochran (Apr 22, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure counting the number of people at a given rank is useful for comparison. If the art does well, you'd expect the number of people holding any given rank to rise over time - without needing any change in standards. That not happening is likely a sign of stagnation or decline.


Agree, but there is a significant drop-off between 1st & 2nd in any style I can think of so it would not stay proportional. TKD in particular skews the numbers. If the number at all ranks do not increase I agree that would indicate decline.


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## JR 137 (Apr 22, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> How far is Seoul, South Korea from Washington DC.
> 
> Never once, when I was in TKD, did they ever give a belt, based on your good deed points and deny you a belt because you don't have those good deed points.... of course there were no kids classes to do that in either.


I think you misunderstood my question. I meant how similar was my uncle’s experience at the local school to your daughter’s experience at that same local school.

I know the answer from our chat elsewhere. Just clarifying for those who are reading this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Agree, but there is a significant drop-off between 1st & 2nd in any style I can think of so it would not stay proportional. TKD in particular skews the numbers. If the number at all ranks do not increase I agree that would indicate decline.


I'd guess there is some proportionality. If 5% (for argument) of each dan make it to each next dan, then an overall increase in numbers should result in a proportional increase at all dan levels over time.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I think you misunderstood my question. I meant how similar was my uncle’s experience at the local school to your daughter’s experience at that same local school.
> 
> I know the answer from our chat elsewhere. Just clarifying for those who are reading this.



very similar, but we have no experience with the blackbelt group, although I do remember seeing it and thinking how can they guarantee a belt in a specified period of time

Also there was a special group, that was incredibly athletic, but they were doing the real flashy stuff, the breaking of boards by doing a back flip kind of thing. And they had tournament trophies, a lot of them. Then I discovered it was a "his students" only tournament that he actually held, the year I was there, in the rather large arena in the capital city near us. Also saw some ground work being taught by a teenage boy. But it was nothing special. The big kahuna there rarely teaches. His kids taught a lot and a few of his "senior students". Did get a chance to see a group of black belts train and I had to ask myself, how can you get a black belt and still not be able to throw a proper kick, and there were several in that group that couldn't throw a kick wall at all


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## JR 137 (Apr 23, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> very similar, but we have no experience with the blackbelt group, although I do remember seeing it and thinking how can they guarantee a belt in a specified period of time
> 
> Also there was a special group, that was incredibly athletic, but they were doing the real flashy stuff, the breaking of boards by doing a back flip kind of thing. And they had tournament trophies, a lot of them. Then I discovered it was a "his students" only tournament that he actually held, the year I was there, in the rather large arena in the capital city near us. Also saw some ground work being taught by a teenage boy. But it was nothing special. The big kahuna there rarely teaches. His kids taught a lot and a few of his "senior students". Did get a chance to see a group of black belts train and I had to ask myself, how can you get a black belt and still not be able to throw a proper kick, and there were several in that group that couldn't throw a kick wall at all


Black belt plan doesn’t guarantee you you’ll have any belt in any amount of time. It’s a flat fee and you train until you earn your black belt. 

Let’s say the black belt plan is $3k and you pay in cash. That covers tuition and testing fees until you pass your black belt test. If it takes you 12 months or 12 years, it’s the one time $3k payment. On paper that’s your best bet. If you calculate the $3k over 4 years and the cost of all tests, you’re saving money going that way. And if you take longer to get to black belt, then you’re saving more money. I’ve seen the numbers at that place and the other place. If you’re going to train long term and get your black belt in the quoted average of 4/5 years, the black belt plan makes financial sense.

The problem is no one on the plan takes the the alleged average time. Once they’ve got your money, they’re not getting more tuition until your next contract. So lower the standards and speed up the pace, promote you to 1st dan, then give you a 2nd dan contract. And so on. 

The only guarantee is they want to get you into a new contract as quickly as possible without you catching on.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Black belt plan doesn’t guarantee you you’ll have any belt in any amount of time. It’s a flat fee and you train until you earn your black belt.
> 
> Let’s say the black belt plan is $3k and you pay in cash. That covers tuition and testing fees until you pass your black belt test. If it takes you 12 months or 12 years, it’s the one time $3k payment. On paper that’s your best bet. If you calculate the $3k over 4 years and the cost of all tests, you’re saving money going that way. And if you take longer to get to black belt, then you’re saving more money. I’ve seen the numbers at that place and the other place. If you’re going to train long term and get your black belt in the quoted average of 4/5 years, the black belt plan makes financial sense.
> 
> ...



Yes, but can they all throw a proper kick 

Interesting, but not at all surprising, based on my experience with the organization being discussed. Contracts are very VERY important to them. The only contract I ever dealt with in my over 40 years of training was with them, for the youngest. I was very happy when the year was up and I was not renewing no matter how much they wanted me to.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2019)

Additionally, the parents of most of the young kids there are entirely clueless and are ecstatic, just as long as their child gets a new rank with every test.


But with that all said, there are worse things a young child od a teenager can be involved in that that TKD school. So, although I would not recommend it, it can serve a positive purpose....but at a rather high price financially.


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## JR 137 (Apr 23, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Additionally, the parents of most of the young kids there are entirely clueless and are ecstatic, just as long as their child gets a new rank with every test.
> 
> 
> But with that all said, there are worse things a young child od a teenager can be involved in that that TKD school. So, although I would not recommend it, it can serve a positive purpose....but at a rather high price financially.


Everything’s got its time and place. My issue is it’s daycare billed as a TKD place. It should be billed as a daycare/after school place with TKD.

If you’re going to call yourself a TKD school and have those banners up with the catchphrases like SD, self confidence, et al, then make the quality of instruction your primary objective.

The additional stuff like picking the kids up from school and bringing them to there (I’ve seen the van), homework time, playground time, et al should be a bonus.

Deliver on the quality of actual TKD instruction, and throw in all the other stuff, and I’m not going to bash anything. In fact I’ll give them the utmost respect. With quality TKD instruction and the other stuff, the tuition is easily worth it if you can afford it. Let’s say your daughter’s Aikido school taught exactly what and how they’re teaching, but added all this stuff and charged you what the TKD school is charging; do you have any complaints? You’d definitely be getting your money’s worth. If the MA instruction is crap, there’s no way to shine it.

Everyone’s got their thing. It’s a little cheaper than daycare, and they’re getting their black belt while they’re there  It’s no wonder the soccer moms are all over it. I just find it funny when they start talking to me about how good their kids are at TKD and how great the teachers are. I’ve heard that quite a few times.

And I find it hilarious when one of my 5th grade students is a 2nd dan and it only took him or her 4 years to get to 2nd dan instead of 7 or 8 years like everyone else. I’ve seen plenty of posed pictures with nunchucks, trophies, etc. They’re the same type of pictures like little league baseball or pop warner football. Seriously. As long as they’re having fun, getting exercise, and building character, it’s all good. Just don’t take your actual skills too seriously. And don’t talk doo-doo to the wrong kid thinking you’re a real 2nd dan, because you’re in for a rude awakening.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 23, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everything’s got its time and place. My issue is it’s daycare billed as a TKD place. It should be billed as a daycare/after school place with TKD.
> 
> If you’re going to call yourself a TKD school and have those banners up with the catchphrases like SD, self confidence, et al, then make the quality of instruction your primary objective.
> 
> ...



Hey, I come from a day when getting a Dan rank at less that 18 years old was both highly suspicious as well as damn impressive; See Benny "the Jet" Urquidez.

I agree with what you are saying and have often wondered about how effective an elementary school black belt actually was


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## JR 137 (Apr 23, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Hey, I come from a day when getting a Dan rank at less that 18 years old was both highly suspicious as well as damn impressive; See Benny "the Jet" Urquidez.
> 
> I agree with what you are saying and have often wondered about how effective an elementary school black belt actually was


I’d really like to spar with one of my 6th grade black belt students. I don’t think it would go over well with the parents and administration though  Maybe after I type up my resignation letter and right before I hand it to my principal


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## dvcochran (Apr 23, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'd guess there is some proportionality. If 5% (for argument) of each dan make it to each next dan, then an overall increase in numbers should result in a proportional increase at all dan levels over time.


I am more in the "old school" camp with Dan promotions. That said we are a TKD school that promotes closer to the more modern rates. So I do feel there are some people who are not a solid Dan belt holder until 2nd Dan. I would not say it to their face but it taints the accomplishment IMHO. 
I fully support my GM so I just keep my lips tight in class unless I am approach about the matter, and do everything I can to teach them up for Dan testing.


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## WaterGal (Apr 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering if anyone else sees differences in the TKD they practiced 20-30 years ago compared to today. Do you find it difficult sometimes in class when a less tenured instructor is leading class? Can you provide then vs. now examples of how your classes are different?



Hmm. When I started in the late 90s as a teen, we did very little sparring, and mostly kicked sheets of x-ray paper or the air. Now, we do lots of sparring and kick on foam shields and punching bags.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 27, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Hmm. When I started in the late 90s as a teen, we did very little sparring, and mostly kicked sheets of x-ray paper or the air. Now, we do lots of sparring and kick on foam shields and punching bags.


Okay, I'll bite. Why x-ray paper??


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## mrt2 (Apr 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Your #2 bullet makes some very good points. How do you feel about the 1st Dan then vs. 2nd Dan now comparison? I would say there are a close number of 2nd Dan's now compared to 1st Dan's then so is it a wash? Does this make it ok in your opinion? To the outsider this can be misleading. Korean arts in general do seem to have the ability to advance at a faster pace, but like you said few people do it as fast as possible.
> Completely agree with #4. Why an adult needs even a ribbon is beyond me. I think a teaching point in class is being missed if that is their motivation.


I guess I would say the 1st Dan then vs. 2nd Dan now is kind of a wash.  When I first started and I saw all these 1st Dans and probationary black belts, I thought, wow, this is going to be a tough class.  But actually it isn't so, especially since so many of them are children and even among the children, the skill level varies widely.  Some of those kids can't fight their way out of a paper bag, others look crisp and have everything you would expect from an adult black belt, except for the power, which is completely expected.

I would refine it further and say that the 1st Dan rank probably has the greatest variability in skill levels.  They all had to train for the black belt test, so every black belt at my school has my respect for passing the black belt test.  And it is a lot harder than, say, an advanced colored belt test.  The test is physically and mentally more difficult.  There is a physical fitness part that pre exhausts the students.  All the forms must be performed, and they are done out of order, sometimes blindfolded, and sometimes with the first movement done the opposite direction ("to the right" is how they usually call that out).  And sparring is a requirement for black belt.  So if a person is slacking, they often drop out before they make black belt.

That said, some people noticeably back off their training after making black belt, while others (sadly not a majority) push ahead and continue to get better.  And some people just sort of flat line somewhere between probationary black belt and 1st Dan while others keep going.  I have seen it.  Don't know if folks met the limits of their talent, or just lost the drive to get better.  I fully expect I will reach some end point like this some day, probably somewhere between 1st and 2nd Dan, but we will see.  I am only a few months into my second year of training.  The last time around, I lost that drive to improve about halfway into my third year of training, but that was ages ago.

On a side note, there is a guy who comes to class and his 10 year old daughter trains, too.  They are both probationary black belts.  He told me his daughter wants to quit.  Funny thing is, I could tell even before he told me.  What do you do in this situation?  I would probably let her quit, whether or not she makes 1st Dan.  Because I don't think she is very good, even accounting for her age, and apparently she is aware enough to know that as well.  Way back in my past, a department head used to say, if it isn't worth doing, it isn't worth doing well.  I would reverse that and say that if it isn't worth doing well, it isn't worth doing.


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## dvcochran (Apr 27, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> I guess I would say the 1st Dan then vs. 2nd Dan now is kind of a wash.  When I first started and I saw all these 1st Dans and probationary black belts, I thought, wow, this is going to be a tough class.  But actually it isn't so, especially since so many of them are children and even among the children, the skill level varies widely.  Some of those kids can't fight their way out of a paper bag, others look crisp and have everything you would expect from an adult black belt, except for the power, which is completely expected.
> 
> I would refine it further and say that the 1st Dan rank probably has the greatest variability in skill levels.  They all had to train for the black belt test, so every black belt at my school has my respect for passing the black belt test.  And it is a lot harder than, say, an advanced colored belt test.  The test is physically and mentally more difficult.  There is a physical fitness part that pre exhausts the students.  All the forms must be performed, and they are done out of order, sometimes blindfolded, and sometimes with the first movement done the opposite direction ("to the right" is how they usually call that out).  And sparring is a requirement for black belt.  So if a person is slacking, they often drop out before they make black belt.
> 
> ...



With the way kids come and go and never learn how to stick with something to the end, I would encourage the daughter to stick it out. Teaching kids is really tough at times, especially when the shine has worn off a little and things get a little tougher at the advanced levels. Hopefully that would also be motivation for the dad as well.


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## dvcochran (Apr 27, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> Hmm. When I started in the late 90s as a teen, we did very little sparring, and mostly kicked sheets of x-ray paper or the air. Now, we do lots of sparring and kick on foam shields and punching bags.


Man, I haven't thought about kicking x-ray paper in a while. Good times.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> With the way kids come and go and never learn how to stick with something to the end, I would encourage the daughter to stick it out. Teaching kids is really tough at times, especially when the shine has worn off a little and things get a little tougher at the advanced levels. Hopefully that would also be motivation for the dad as well.


I think this is very situational. If the kid has no real interest, there's not much harm in them quitting. If they quit because it gets hard, because they get discouraged, or because they're not good (even though they have interest) that might be more problematic.


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## Earl Weiss (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Why x-ray paper??



This was from the time before the "Double Paddle" type which make a nice sound if you hit the right. X Ray paper can make a nice sound when you hit it correctly.


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is very situational. If the kid has no real interest, there's not much harm in them quitting. If they quit because it gets hard, because they get discouraged, or because they're not good (even though they have interest) that might be more problematic.


In my youth kids were sometimes told "if you start something, you will finish it". What are your thoughts on this ideality?


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## _Simon_ (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Why x-ray paper??


It's cos you never, EVER know whether there's an x-ray paper waiting for you round the street corner.....


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## mrt2 (Apr 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> In my youth kids were sometimes told "if you start something, you will finish it". What are your thoughts on this ideality?


But what does that mean in the context of martial arts?  In other activities such as school, or team sports, you tell your kid to stick it out till the end of the season, or finish the class.  But in Martial arts, where a kid has already done it for a couple of years, or maybe even 4 or 5 years, and is ready to move on?  Stick it out till 1st Dan?  2nd Dan?  There is no end point.  And as we discussed in the "when will you quit?" thread, almost everybody eventually quits.


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

For our school back when we used them, the roughly 8"x14" x-ray papers were free. They are light and easy to hold, and as others have said,  make a certain when you hit them correctly.


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## mrt2 (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is very situational. If the kid has no real interest, there's not much harm in them quitting. If they quit because it gets hard, because they get discouraged, or because they're not good (even though they have interest) that might be more problematic.


I don't really know this kid, but I see a lot of kid black belts, and she is easily one of the lowest in terms of her skills.  She (sort of) knows her black belt forms, but her technique is, at best, adult high green or purple belt level.

I have had this discussion with my head instructor, not about this kid but generally about kids who try martial arts for a year, or two and want to quit.  Though he has lived in the US most of his life, he is old school Korean and told me he thinks American parents let their kids quit too easily.  I told him that as a parent, I disagree.  If a kid genuinely shows a talent for TKD, then of course, I would encourage my kid to continue.  But if my kid has given it a good effort and he is just flatlining AND WANTS TO QUIT, then why would I encourage him or her to continue to plug away at something he isn't very good at when it is possible there is something he hasn't yet tried that better suits his abilities?


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> But what does that mean in the context of martial arts?  1st Dan?  2nd Dan?  There is no end point.  And as we discussed in the "when will you quit?" thread, almost everybody eventually quits.



I was hoping someone would chime in with a comment like yours. It has very little in directly fulfilling the statement. But as most of us know, that is part of the maturation process of training in the MA's. You learn how to stay at something, through the good/bad or easy/difficult times. 
Learning to endure is a priceless core value. It is VERY difficult for most people to learn. Except for the worst of living conditions, not many of us really even understand what it means. I immediately go to thinking of how wartime soldiers are put in hellish conditions and have absolutely no choices. Either you survive or die. Certainly some people are predisposed to handle adversity easier than others but for the mainstream I think it is a learned/conditioned trait.


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## mrt2 (Apr 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I was hoping someone would chime in with a comment like yours. It has very little in directly fulfilling the statement. But as most of us know, that is part of the maturation process of training in the MA's.* You learn how to stay at something, through the good/bad or easy/difficult times.
> Learning to endure is a priceless core value.* It is VERY difficult for most people to learn. Except for the worst of living conditions, not many of us really even understand what it means. I immediately go to thinking of how wartime soldiers are put in hellish conditions and have absolutely no choices. Either you survive or die. Certainly some people are predisposed to handle adversity easier than others but for the mainstream I think it is a learned/conditioned trait.


Well said.  And for some kids, sticking with MA, even when things get tough is an important life lesson.  There is a teenager at our school for whom this lesson absolutely applies.  The kid has ability, but lacks focus and control, which is why he is progressing more slowly than most.  He is getting some benefit from TKD, for sure and he is getting better.  The kid has all the physical attributes, if he can just learn to focus.  He has the ability to be one of our school's rock stars.  It is an open question at this point.  Clearly, the kid has some kind of learning disorder, which I hope for his sake he is getting treatment for.  But I can see that his continued involvement in TKD is an important part of his life.

The thing is, there is more to life than MA, and for some kids, the time they put into becoming a mediocre TKD practitioner might be put to better use doing something else.  My kid never cared for combat sports, or martial arts.  But he did stick with music and much to my surprise, became a talented cellist.  Not Yo Yo Ma talented, but talented enough to become one of the best at his instrument in the school district.  And it took him 11 years of work to get to this point.  What might have happened had he given up cello early on because of some other activity I was forcing him to do?


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Well said.  And for some kids, sticking with MA, even when things get tough is an important life lesson.  There is a teenager at our school for whom this lesson absolutely applies.  The kid has ability, but lacks focus and control, which is why he is progressing more slowly than most.  He is getting some benefit from TKD, for sure.
> 
> The thing is, there is more to life than MA, and for some kids, the time they put into becoming a mediocre TKD practitioner might be put to better use doing something else.  My kid never cared for combat sports, or martial arts.  But he did stick with music and much to my surprise, became a talented cellist.  Not Yo Yo Ma talented, but talented enough to become one of the best at his instrument in the school district.  And it took him 11 years of work to get to this point.  What might have happened had he given up cello early on because of some other activity I was forcing him to do?


That is a delicate area for adults. Your kids comes to you and says they want to do X. It is a complex action the parent should take. I always said I want my child to experience most everything in life but I want to be in the shadows to protect them when they fail or struggle. Practical? No Useful? Only in moderation. I think this is the point in the process where we grow and learn as a person. The child hits adversity and has to make some decisions. It seems to be human nature that we want to move away from things that are difficult unless we have no choice (subsistence for example). As a parent, we have to monitor where the experience is taking our kid. Working with them, instead of doing it for them, is paramount to the outcome. I don't think it matters what the practice is, they need to learn a wholesome way to stick with it. No measurement or standard is implied but somehow we have to encourage and teach them to do their best. I do feel we have a responsibility to engrain high standards into their belief system.


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## mrt2 (Apr 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> That is a delicate area for adults. Your kids comes to you and says they want to do X. It is a complex action the parent should take. I always said I want my child to experience most everything in life but I want to be in the shadows to protect them when they fail or struggle. Practical? No Useful? Only in moderation. I think this is the point in the process where we grow and learn as a person. The child hits adversity and has to make some decisions. It seems to be human nature that we want to move away from things that are difficult unless we have no choice (subsistence for example). As a parent, we have to monitor where the experience is taking our kid. Working with them, instead of doing it for them, is paramount to the outcome. I don't think it matters what the practice is, they need to learn a wholesome way to stick with it. No measurement or standard is implied but somehow we have to encourage and teach them to do their best.* I do feel we have a responsibility to engrain high standards into their belief system*.


IMO, little kids should have exposure to a range of experiences.  Deciding which to continue with past childhood is a tough decision.  I am not a believer in overprogramming.  My wife has a friend who enrolled her daughter in everything from Tae Kwon Do, to downhill skiing, to dance, to piano (and a bunch of other instruments), Chinese.

Guess what?  Of all those things, the only thing the girl still does at age 15 is skiing.  And, she did get her 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do, then gave it up as soon as her mother stopped forcing her to go.


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## JR 137 (Apr 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think this is very situational. If the kid has no real interest, there's not much harm in them quitting. If they quit because it gets hard, because they get discouraged, or because they're not good (even though they have interest) that might be more problematic.





dvcochran said:


> In my youth kids were sometimes told "if you start something, you will finish it". What are your thoughts on this ideality?


We were also told we had to finish the season. We made a commitment, and that’s what you have to do. If you really don’t want to play anymore, you don’t have to join next year. But you’re finishing the season the right way. Of course if there were outright justifiable reasons to quit, that’s another story.

But MA doesn’t have seasons. There are milestones. Substitute X belt or end of contract for season here. Hopefully parents are at least holding kids to that instead of just walking away once things get tough.

I find most adults that stay past that initial honeymoon period quit at 2 distinct points - when the actual sparring starts (beyond going slow and getting a feel for it) or shortly after 1st dan.

A few reasons I’ve come up with:
Sparring: it’s no longer cardio karate/kickboxing in a sense. They realize they really don’t want to hit and get hit after all. Not that they’re being hit hard, but just being hit beyond a tap and someone not allowing them to hit them back is unsettling for some.
1st dan: They had a goal in mind and accomplished it. Like checking something off a bucket list. My teacher said he’s had a few people leave right after they made 1st dan, and they told him they achieved what they set out for, so they’re moving on. Some people just want to earn a black belt like it’s a trophy. I don’t get it, but I don’t have to.

Other people lost interest some time back, but convinced themselves to stick with it until black belt and “finish what they started.” Kind of like playing a sport and not enjoying it as much anymore but finishing the season. 

Kids like things one day and are bored with them them the next day. Or they’re signed up for something and don’t really want to be there to begin with. Parents talk their kids into things like sports, musical instrument lessons, etc. At some point the kids either want to keep going or want to stop. Quite often they’ll go through the motions for a while to appease the parents before the parents say they’ve done it long enough and can move on. 

Not everyone, especially kids, wants to be there in the first place.

Of the group that did truly want to be there, none of them knew exactly what it was going to be like. It’s like meeting a potential mate. You see all this stuff you think is how they are, but after a while you realize it’s what you thought they were and/or wanted them to be like, and not who they really are. Sometimes it works out, but most often it doesn’t.

There’s nothing wrong with setting a goal, accomplishing it, then moving on to the next thing.


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> IMO, little kids should have exposure to a range of experiences.  Deciding which to continue with past childhood is a tough decision.  I am not a believer in overprogramming.  My wife has a friend who enrolled her daughter in everything from Tae Kwon Do, to downhill skiing, to dance, to piano (and a bunch of other instruments), Chinese.
> 
> Guess what?  Of all those things, the only thing the girl still does at age 15 is skiing.  And, she did get her 1st Dan in Tae Kwon Do, then gave it up as soon as her mother stopped forcing her to go.


It is a different world in terms of the amount of exposure kids get growing up compared to when I was young. Makes it harder on both sides of the equation. Our child was a sports junkie growing up. He played 3 sports from about 6 years old to college. I was a parent who was involved, either as a coach or some other role. It paid off since he got a full ride in college. He got a chronic high ankle sprain early in his junior year which he played the whole season with. He made the decision on his own not to play his senior year. He went off scholarship and went to work to pay for his last year of school. Never did he ask for money extra money. I have am exceptionally proud of that. 
Did he reach burnout later than most young athletes do? I have asked that more than a few times.  
When he approached me with his decision I could tell he had put a lot of thought into it. He was a secondary and utility starter. He said he had quietly played through pain to the point he was concerned there was structural damage in his foot. He knew he was a very good player but had no aspirations of playing after college. He had already talked it through with his position coaches and felt confident that he was not leaving them hanging. He also knew his last year at school was going to be tough. So what could I say. I supported him wholly and he finished school in proper fashion. He is an excellent young man if I do say so myself.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 28, 2019)

As a parent both of my kids have been doing TKD for 17 and 12 years...it is a life long commitment for them...people have always questioned their commitment based on their own experience...most kids quit during their teenage years but I knew this was not the case with my Kids my daughter at the age of 24 is a part owner of a TKD school and head Competition Instructor she will test for her 5th Dan in January...My Son who is a SPC4 in the Army...A member of the World Class Athlete Program/All Army Taekwondo Team Stationed at Ft Carson Colorado will test for his 5th Dan in June!!!  Martial Arts is a way of life...for anyone who was around on Martial Talk 10 years ago I am still friends with Art and Terry see both of them at tournaments to this day...our kids are around the same age they are also lifelong Martial Artists...Art has opened his own school and is doing well...Terry continues operating his school in Texas with his sons!


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## DocWard (Apr 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> We were also told we had to finish the season. We made a commitment, and that’s what you have to do. If you really don’t want to play anymore, you don’t have to join next year. But you’re finishing the season the right way. Of course if there were outright justifiable reasons to quit, that’s another story.
> 
> But MA doesn’t have seasons. There are milestones. Substitute X belt or end of contract for season here. Hopefully parents are at least holding kids to that instead of just walking away once things get tough.
> 
> ...



My oldest daughter ran cross-country starting in Seventh Grade. We wanted her to be physically active and involved in an activity, and her coordination was such that doing something where she just had to put one foot in front of the other was a good idea. My wife and I agreed before the season that she would finish the season out, because it was a commitment to a team. After she placed dead last in her first few races, and in a rather convincing fashion, I was ready to re-think that, if she wanted to. After her first race I think I would have quit. She didn't, and kept running throughout her middle school and high school career. By the middle of her sophomore season, she was solidly fast enough to contribute to the team's standings at meets. Since she went to a Div. III school, her times were good enough that she could've run college if she had chosen to. She wanted to focus on her academics, so chose not to. She did pick up a clarinet performance minor by almost sheer force of will and a very good professor.

I may have missed it if someone mentioned it, and if so, I apologize. All too often these days I see parents living vicariously through their children, getting them involved in things they wanted to do themselves. My wife and I tried very hard to avoid that, and didn't get our children involved in multiple different activities, unless they asked, and sometimes not then. We tried to pick and choose so they could have their activities that they would stick with, while we could continue to live our own lives.

I will admit that the reason I came back to the martial arts was because I felt I had stopped short of a goal and a milestone by not earning my black belt. Having said that, if I am fortunate enough to earn it now, I do intend to continue working and learning for as long as I can in the arts.


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## dvcochran (Apr 28, 2019)

DocWard said:


> My oldest daughter ran cross-country starting in Seventh Grade. We wanted her to be physically active and involved in an activity, and her coordination was such that doing something where she just had to put one foot in front of the other was a good idea. My wife and I agreed before the season that she would finish the season out, because it was a commitment to a team. After she placed dead last in her first few races, and in a rather convincing fashion, I was ready to re-think that, if she wanted to. After her first race I think I would have quit. She didn't, and kept running throughout her middle school and high school career. By the middle of her sophomore season, she was solidly fast enough to contribute to the team's standings at meets. Since she went to a Div. III school, her times were good enough that she could've run college if she had chosen to. She wanted to focus on her academics, so chose not to. She did pick up a clarinet performance minor by almost sheer force of will and a very good professor.
> 
> I may have missed it if someone mentioned it, and if so, I apologize. All too often these days I see parents living vicariously through their children, getting them involved in things they wanted to do themselves. My wife and I tried very hard to avoid that, and didn't get our children involved in multiple different activities, unless they asked, and sometimes not then. We tried to pick and choose so they could have their activities that they would stick with, while we could continue to live our own lives.
> 
> I will admit that the reason I came back to the martial arts was because I felt I had stopped short of a goal and a milestone by not earning my black belt. Having said that, if I am fortunate enough to earn it now, I do intend to continue working and learning for as long as I can in the arts.


Great post. To be clear, I did not mean it to sound as if I lived vicariously. We went through a dance at the start of every sport every season (with the exception of college ball) where we would set down and talk through the advantages and disadvantages of playing a particular sport. And the sacrifices and extra work it would likely mean. If I am guilty of anything it is of holding a higher standard for his workouts and performance. When he was young I did not make a big deal of this but as he grew into the teenage years and started forming his own ideas and goals I hoped to be instrumental in a positive way. I was never in his locker room or weight room with the team (unless coaching). We had our own routine outside of regular workouts. I will use this podium to brag on him some more. He went to a private school that was about a 50 minute drive from our house. In the 8th grade he started getting up a 4:00 am 3 days/week so that he could get extra weight training. He was a skinny kid. It didn't start to really show until his 9th grade year. The school he went to hold the record for state titles in TN in football and 6 other sports (Brentwood Academy). He was on the state track relay title team for several years before they were trumped by a team from the same school. One of my proudest moments, BA did not have soccer teams when he started there. In his Sophomore and Junior years he was instrumental in organizing teams for the middle school girls (first), then the boys the following year. They began having varsity teams the year after he graduated high school (2012) and he is still involved. 
A bit of an introvert but man can he set his jaw and get steely eyed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> In my youth kids were sometimes told "if you start something, you will finish it". What are your thoughts on this ideality?


I'm not a fan. There's a lot of value to trying things out to see if you like them. Then there's the whole question of what does "finish it" mean? It seems ridiculous to say, "If you start this, you have to stay until you get your black belt." That'd be a 2-10 year commitment most places.

 I'd be okay if a parent said, "If you start, you stick with it until you get your first belt." In most cases, that means they have to go through a few weeks. Even if they don't enjoy it, it's pretty harmless to them, and they won't be able to quit to avoid the strangeness, which will vanish after a few weeks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> It's cos you never, EVER know whether there's an x-ray paper waiting for you round the street corner.....


I was expecting someone to say they liked kicking pictures of bones or something.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> I don't really know this kid, but I see a lot of kid black belts, and she is easily one of the lowest in terms of her skills.  She (sort of) knows her black belt forms, but her technique is, at best, adult high green or purple belt level.
> 
> I have had this discussion with my head instructor, not about this kid but generally about kids who try martial arts for a year, or two and want to quit.  Though he has lived in the US most of his life, he is old school Korean and told me he thinks American parents let their kids quit too easily.  I told him that as a parent, I disagree.  If a kid genuinely shows a talent for TKD, then of course, I would encourage my kid to continue.  But if my kid has given it a good effort and he is just flatlining AND WANTS TO QUIT, then why would I encourage him or her to continue to plug away at something he isn't very good at when it is possible there is something he hasn't yet tried that better suits his abilities?


Some good points in there. My thought in my prior post was that there's a lot to learn from overcoming the difficulties.....IF they are actually interested. So, someone who's interested but isn't good at it can gain a lot from the experience. Someone who's disinterested probably needs something else to do.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 29, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I was hoping someone would chime in with a comment like yours. It has very little in directly fulfilling the statement. But as most of us know, that is part of the maturation process of training in the MA's. You learn how to stay at something, through the good/bad or easy/difficult times.
> Learning to endure is a priceless core value. It is VERY difficult for most people to learn. Except for the worst of living conditions, not many of us really even understand what it means. I immediately go to thinking of how wartime soldiers are put in hellish conditions and have absolutely no choices. Either you survive or die. Certainly some people are predisposed to handle adversity easier than others but for the mainstream I think it is a learned/conditioned trait.


We also have to think about the other side of that lesson, though. Do we want to teach kids to stay in optional activities they aren't interested in? Or do we want them to learn to be discerning, to go pursue something they are passionate about?


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## JR 137 (Apr 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan. There's a lot of value to trying things out to see if you like them. Then there's the whole question of what does "finish it" mean? It seems ridiculous to say, "If you start this, you have to stay until you get your black belt." That'd be a 2-10 year commitment most places.
> 
> I'd be okay if a parent said, "If you start, you stick with it until you get your first belt." In most cases, that means they have to go through a few weeks. Even if they don't enjoy it, it's pretty harmless to them, and they won't be able to quit to avoid the strangeness, which will vanish after a few weeks.


I’d say it’s more of a timeframe thing with MA than any belt. It really depends on the kid, their age, and their reasons why they want to quit.

My daughter was 5 when she started at our dojo. She really liked it at first. A few months later she started getting bored. I kept bringing her for about a month or 2 after she said she didn’t want to go anymore. I was trying to figure out why - maybe it was someone in class, maybe it was watching my class and waiting for it to end before her class, maybe she’d regain interest after a test due to new material.

It just wasn’t her thing. The last week I brought her it hit me - was I bringing her for her or for me? Not that I was living vicariously through her success; I just wanted her to like it as much as I do. Hopefully she’ll come back around one day. 

It shouldn’t be a matter of a belt nor a defined time frame. It should be about why they don’t want to go. If why they don’t want to go can be changed, try to change it (within reason, of course). It shouldn’t be take them out the first time they don’t want to go, but it also shouldn’t be keep them there and make their life miserable either. Pretty much nothing is black and white when parenting.


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## dvcochran (Apr 29, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a fan. There's a lot of value to trying things out to see if you like them. Then there's the whole question of what does "finish it" mean? It seems ridiculous to say, "If you start this, you have to stay until you get your black belt." That'd be a 2-10 year commitment most places.
> 
> I'd be okay if a parent said, "If you start, you stick with it until you get your first belt." In most cases, that means they have to go through a few weeks. Even if they don't enjoy it, it's pretty harmless to them, and they won't be able to quit to avoid the strangeness, which will vanish after a few weeks.


What about something like a seasonal sport? Especially when it is a team sport where others are dependent on you being there? I do get the MA comparison but there are times within something like that where parental guidance may need to be stern in certain situations.


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## skribs (Apr 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Why x-ray paper??



It makes a nice popping sound when you hit it.  Also, as an instructor, I can shake it and makes a loud crinkling sound that can get attention (i.e. to let someone who is moving backwards know its time to turn around and kick).



Earl Weiss said:


> This was from the time before the "Double Paddle" type which make a nice sound if you hit the right. X Ray paper can make a nice sound when you hit it correctly.



We use both at my school.  X-ray paper for beginners who are still working on kicking properly, paddles when they have more accuracy and can hit without using their toes.


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## WaterGal (Apr 30, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Okay, I'll bite. Why x-ray paper??



It makes a lot of noise when you kick it.


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## gorilla2 (Apr 30, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> It makes a lot of noise when you kick it.


I have seen these used never used an X-ray


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 30, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> What about something like a seasonal sport? Especially when it is a team sport where others are dependent on you being there? I do get the MA comparison but there are times within something like that where parental guidance may need to be stern in certain situations.


That's about the same as saying "stick it out to the first belt". Nothing wrong with kids being held to a commitment, as long as wanting to try something doesn't tie them into years of disinterested involvement. So, yeah, if they join a team, they should finish that season, barring exceptional circumstances.


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## WaterGal (May 1, 2019)

gorilla2 said:


> I have seen these used never used an X-ray



I mean they don't use _used _X-ray paper. It's a blank plastic sheet, it doesn't have someone's broken arm on it lol.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> I mean they don't use _used _X-ray paper. It's a blank plastic sheet, it doesn't have someone's broken arm on it lol.


It'd be more fun it if did.


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## dvcochran (May 1, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> I mean they don't use _used _X-ray paper. It's a blank plastic sheet, it doesn't have someone's broken arm on it lol.


The ones we used back in the 80's were used. No identifying marks of course but I do remember seeing so gruesome breaks.


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## JR 137 (May 1, 2019)

WaterGal said:


> I mean they don't use _used _X-ray paper. It's a blank plastic sheet, it doesn't have someone's broken arm on it lol.


Why not? What’s the difference? Used ones are free.

I think X-ray film is going to be more scarce. Most are on CD now. Actually, most are emailed nowadays. You have to request physical copies.


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## _Simon_ (May 2, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> It'd be more fun it if did.


AND would be demonstrating the devastating effectiveness of the technique!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2019)

_Simon_ said:


> AND would be demonstrating the devastating effectiveness of the technique!


Best if you (the holder) can develop some good sleight-of-hand, replacing a clean (unbroken) x-ray with a broken one when they hit well.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

I would be very interested to know what the rule sets were for the Korean National Championships in the mid 60s. All I know is that they were full contact and without body armor.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I would be very interested to know what the rule sets were for the Korean National Championships in the mid 60s. All I know is that they were full contact and without body armor.


The first World TKD championship was held in Seoul, South Korea in 1973. What sport are you referring to?


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The first World TKD championship was held in Seoul, South Korea in 1973. What sport are you referring to?



Korean nationals were open style Tang Soo Do competition.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> The first World TKD championship was held in Seoul, South Korea in 1973. What sport are you referring to?



A world championship is not the same as a national championship


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2019)

I can find no reference.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I can find no reference.



It's that hard? You have never heard of Jong Soo Park?

Grand Master Jong Soo Park - Taekwondo

*in 1964, he became Korean National Champion

*


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

_*1963   Won the First Korean Tae Soo Do [Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do] Full Contact Heavyweight Championship in 3rd, 4th,5th Degree Black Belt Division. Won the Korean Tae Soo Do Representative Full Contact Heavyweight Championship

Grand Master C.K. Choi | Tae kwon Do Pioneers*_


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> It's that hard? You have never heard of Jong Soo Park?
> 
> Grand Master Jong Soo Park - Taekwondo
> 
> ...


Sure, most people studying more traditional TKD have heard of him. I got to meet and work out with him in Chicago 1986 or 87. Still do not see what he has to do with a TSD championship?
There is no reference on search engines to a Korean national championship until 1973. That said, I would think the individual styles were holding competitions to that effect.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Sure, most people studying more traditional TKD have heard of him. I got to meet and work out with him in Chicago 1986 or 87. Still do not see what he has to do with a TSD championship?
> There is no reference on search engines to a Korean national championship until 1973. That said, I would think the individual styles were holding competitions to that effect.



There were official TaeKwondo championships prior to 1973: 

*1962   Won the First Korean Tae Kwon Do Championships in Sparring and Pattern in Won Joo city, in Korea. This was the World First Tae Kwon Do Championship. Selected as a member of the First Korean Army Representative Team.*

Grand Master C.K. Choi | Tae kwon Do Pioneers


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> There were official TaeKwondo championships prior to 1973:
> 
> *1962   Won the First Korean Tae Kwon Do Championships in Sparring and Pattern in Won Joo city, in Korea. This was the World First Tae Kwon Do Championship. Selected as a member of the First Korean Army Representative Team.*
> 
> Grand Master C.K. Choi | Tae kwon Do Pioneers


I just said that. You referenced Tang Soo Do.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I just said that. You referenced Tang Soo Do.



No I did not, it was a Tae Soo Do competition

*Tae Soo Do is a name that has been used over the years by both the Taekwondo and the Hwa Rang Do communities*
*
Tae Soo Do - Wikipedia*
.


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## dvcochran (Dec 2, 2019)

drop bear said:


> John Jones does both.
> Anyway holly Holmes





Alan Smithee said:


> Korean nationals were open style Tang Soo Do competition.


Nope. It was TSD.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Nope. It was TSD.



I was mistaken before I checked the source:

Grand Master C.K. Choi | Tae kwon Do Pioneers

_*1963 Won the First Korean Tae Soo Do [Tae Kwon Do, Tang Soo Do, Kong Soo Do] Full Contact Heavyweight Championship in 3rd, 4th,5th Degree Black Belt Division. Won the Korean Tae Soo Do Representative Full Contact Heavyweight Championship*_


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## Buka (Dec 2, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Sure, most people studying more traditional TKD have heard of him. I got to meet and work out with him in Chicago 1986 or 87. Still do not see what he has to do with a TSD championship?
> There is no reference on search engines to a Korean national championship until 1973. That said, I would think the individual styles were holding competitions to that effect.



I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 2, 2019)

Buka said:


> I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”



That's why I'm so curious. What ruleset do you figure the full contact Tae So Do competition was under? No way it was Olympic rules, but at the same time hard to imagine  bare knuckle full contact, but equally strange to imagine gloves in 1963..  Would also be interesting to know if they allowed low kicks.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”


I would say he had as fast a front leg flip (rabbit) kick as anyone I ever seen. And it really had something on it when it hit you. To be a pretty hardcore TKD guy his takedowns were a thing of beauty. 
He was pretty involved in the Olympic TKD push during the mid 80's and was very involved in the scoring rules/procedures. I still smile when I think back of watching 10-12 high ranking Koreans 'negotiate' the rules. It got pretty passionate at times.
I am going to say this rather vaguely and you will get the reason. A certain Korean whose last name was Chun was very passionate about there being no height to weight ratio for weighting. After spending two full days debating the issue and realizing it was not going his way he very much lost his composure. 
Now, by Korean standards our GM Shin is a big, tall man. GM Chun who was below average for Korean stature decided he would try to sweep my GM in an attempt to make some kind of misguided reverse point that height does not matter. GM Chum tried 4-5 times with different footwork or angle and could never budge the leg. Then, as if that was not bad enough, something was said (in Korean)between the two that did not set too well. They rather hurriedly went outside the conference room quietly talking to each other. Several minutes went by before GM Shin comes back in looking just like he did when he left the room. About 30 minutes later GM Chun came back in very humbled with a busted lip and eye and shirt covered in blood. He sad down at the table and never said another word. 

Theses guys lived and breathed their passion. This was a group who had moved on from competition or just always had other aspirations. A lot of us talk about being passionate. These were  some of those guys who embodied it.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> I would have loved to have met him. My TKD instructor, Billy Blanks, trained under him to 7th Dan. Billy told some great stories of him. When someone asked about him Billy would whistle and smile, saying “Man, you should see him fight”


Still possible. He does seminars all over.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> He was pretty involved in the Olympic TKD push during the mid 80's and was very involved in the scoring rules/procedures. it.



What, Jong Soo Park was? He never transitioned to the KKW so I don't see why he would have any involvement with that. He had an ITF off-shoot after his falling out with General Choi.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> What, Jong Soo Park was? He never transitioned to the KKW so I don't see why he would have any involvement with that. He had an ITF off-shoot after his falling out with General Choi.


All "Kwans" were involved plus many others.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> All "Kwans" were involved plus many others.



Why would the ITF have any involvement with a sport they didn't belong to?


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Why would the ITF have any involvement with a sport they didn't belong to?


Political jockeying. Everyone involved in TKD wanted a piece of the Olympic pie. 
ITF practitioners are allowed; they just have to play by WT rules. In a nutshell, WT is open in regards to a person experience. But they have to go by the rule/rank and advance through the circuit which gets pretty involved. By the time a person gets to the Olympic level they are a seasoned WT fighter.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> ITF practitioners are allowed.



That's fairly recent. They were not allowed before.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Political jockeying. Everyone involved in TKD wanted a piece of the Olympic pie.
> ITF practitioners are allowed; they just have to play by WT rules. In a nutshell, WT is open in regards to a person experience. But they have to go by the rule/rank and advance through the circuit which gets pretty involved. By the time a person gets to the Olympic level they are a seasoned WT fighter.



I believe North Koreas ITF team were allowed to compete a few years ago, but I don't know if they ever did


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I believe North Koreas ITF team were allowed to compete a few years ago, but I don't know if they ever did


Yep.


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## Buka (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> That's why I'm so curious. What ruleset do you figure the full contact Tae So Do competition was under? No way it was Olympic rules, but at the same time hard to imagine  bare knuckle full contact, but equally strange to imagine gloves in 1963..  Would also be interesting to know if they allowed low kicks.



I don't really know. 

But things were "different" back in the late sixties and early seventies. The first tournament I ever saw was in Boston Arena, a "point" tournament with continuous fighting held in a boxing ring. It was no gloves and full contact with primarily Japanese fighters. It was nuts. I signed up for Karate at the school of the winner the following week.


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## Buka (Dec 3, 2019)

Earl Weiss said:


> Still possible. He does seminars all over.



Good to know. But I rarely travel to the mainland any more. Been back east twice in the last two months, though, and it was awful. But if he ever comes to Hawaii I'd definitely go, or maybe the west coast....


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> I don't really know.
> 
> But things were "different" back in the late sixties and early seventies. The first tournament I ever saw was in Boston Arena, a "point" tournament with continuous fighting held in a boxing ring. It was no gloves and full contact with primarily Japanese fighters. It was nuts. I signed up for Karate at the school of the winner the following week.



One of the things I notice watching these old competitions is that technique was pretty unpolished. Lots of poor knee chambers and just overall stiff kicks from seasoned fighters.

You never see a modern day elite competitor with that. I think they just mainly focused on application and power in those days.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Yep.


 But they didn't right?


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## Buka (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> One of the things I notice watching these old competitions is that technique was pretty unpolished. Lots of poor knee chambers and just overall stiff kicks from seasoned fighters.
> 
> You never see a modern day elite competitor with that. I think they just mainly focused on application and power in those days.



I think what they focused on was kicking somebody's ash. Joe Lewis was the guy that taught me how to tournament fight. He used to stay at my home when he was in the area. We used to spar in my kitchen late at night. I learned as much in that kitchen as I did at any dojo. And, man, his sidekick was just plain nasty.


 


And to your thread about wrist locks, this photo was on the wall of my dojo with the caption under it "Wrist lock this."



 

He had seriously strong hands. Gorilla strength hands. I miss him a lot, he was a good man.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 3, 2019)

Buka said:


> I think what they focused on was kicking somebody's ash. Joe Lewis was the guy that taught me how to tournament fight. He used to stay at my home when he was in the area. We used to spar in my kitchen late at night. I learned as much in that kitchen as I did at any dojo. And, man, his sidekick was just plain nasty.
> 
> View attachment 22589
> 
> ...



Lewis had good technique but a lot of those guys didn't. Look at Skipper Mullers sidekicks there. Great competitor but novice bodymechanics. Bob Wall who had just turned black belt also very stiff.


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## Buka (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Lewis had good technique but a lot of those guys didn't. Look at Skipper Mullers sidekicks there. Great competitor but novice bodymechanics. Bob Wall who had just turned black belt also very stiff.



Bob Wall was a beast. It was like getting hit by a truck. He trained under Joe Lewis, Gene Lebelle and the Machados. He grew up on a farm and lifted a little calf every day as the calf grew. That’s one way to improve strength, that’s for sure.

He could rock and roll, Bob Wall could. Ooh, mama.


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## dvcochran (Dec 3, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> But they didn't right?


I cannot say for sure. I do know that ITF people have been circuit level competitions.


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## isshinryuronin (Dec 3, 2019)

I'm not a TKD guy, but I don't think style is really the topic, rather the metamorphosis of the dojang/dojo and teaching over the years here in the USA.  Back in the good ol' days (late 1960's-early 1970's) pads were looked down upon as being wussy (wraps were allowed only if your were fighting injured.)  This began to change when Jhoon Rhee came out with his line of foam pads which became required in TKD competitions.  It was looked down upon by the "old guard" as it made for sloppy movements and actually increased injuries by taking away the once needed contact control.  But the trend was established (and the pads got better)  No groin shots or sweeps?  What kind of MA is that??  That's what made sparring fun.

The martial art community back then was a lot smaller (like in old Okinawa) and the key players all knew each other.  That meant reputation was important, so the instructors put that on the line whenever they promoted a student to black belt.  Now, not so much.  With so many instructors, there is more anonymity and less accountability for their actions within the community.  The culture of karate has changed.

I agree with Earl Weiss' post re: the physicality of the classes and heavy soaked uniforms back then.  Being bounced off the walls was just part of the entertainment.  Also, less kids and more young adults making up the clientele.  There was a social element back then, as MA was an esoteric art that was shared by a smaller, close knit group, loyal to their instructor (who, back then, was most likely deserving of it) and wanting to uphold his reputation.

But the bottom line is that all is dependent on the instructor, for good or ill, and that he is responsible for his students.


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> Bob Wall was a beast. It was like getting hit by a truck. He trained under Joe Lewis, Gene Lebelle and the Machados. He grew up on a farm and lifted a little calf every day as the calf grew. That’s one way to improve strength, that’s for sure.
> 
> He could rock and roll, Bob Wall could. Ooh, mama.



Taekwondo is not a strong man contest.


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> Taekwondo is not a strong man contest.



Correct. It is a Korean Martial Art.

What other definitions shall we play?


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## Alan Smithee (Dec 4, 2019)

Buka said:


> Correct. It is a Korean Martial Art.
> 
> What other definitions shall we play?



I am discussing technique here. We have seen a drastic evolution in flexibility and technique among national competitors. Bill Wallace talks about how techniques were rough and unpolished in his day. He attributed it to old, stiff masters passing on the arts to westerners the first time. So it had to take maybe two or three generations until it got sharpened back to its ideal.


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2019)

Alan Smithee said:


> I am discussing technique here. We have seen a drastic evolution in flexibility and technique among national competitors. Bill Wallace talks about how techniques were rough and unpolished in his day. He attributed it to old, stiff masters passing on the arts to westerners the first time. So it had to take maybe two or three generations until it got sharpened back to its ideal.



The world has seen a drastic evolution in Martial Arts in general over the last thirty years, more so than in any other time in Martial history. May you take advantage of that going forward.

As for fast Billy's comments, I remember them, I attribute them to his Bachelor’s degree in Phys Ed and his Masters degree in Kinesiology. Bill's never been short on words. I've been on fighting teams with Bill when we were both young, probably before you were born.


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## paitingman (Dec 7, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I would say he had as fast a front leg flip (rabbit) kick as anyone I ever seen.



Front leg flip? Could you please describe rabbit kick? I'm sure I know the kick but am unfamiliar with the term. Or do you know korean name? Thank you


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## dvcochran (Dec 7, 2019)

paitingman said:


> Front leg flip? Could you please describe rabbit kick? I'm sure I know the kick but am unfamiliar with the term. Or do you know korean name? Thank you


I have heard several names. The best descriptive I can think of is a high Teep.


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