# Questions regarding MA-80



## Dan Anderson

I'm in an interesting position of being the runaway son of Remy Presas by forming my personal branch of Modern Arnis.

First and foremost I would recognize any person's rank as promoted by Remy Presas.  As he was my teacher there is no way I could not recognize a rank HE presented.  When I added my signature to Jeff Leader's 3rd degree certificate at the first WMAA camp, Rich Parsons (above post) told me the above and asked me if he was in the same position, would I sign his cert.  I told him without hesitation that I would.

As to ranks given by any other Modern Arnis group than my own (note: I consider the CSSD/SC group as one of my own in a blood brother fashion), I hold to what I normally do in my karate school.  Every person in American Freestyle Karate, no matter what their previous rank might be, starts at the bottom.  I let them know that this is no invalidation of their previous accomplishments but since this is a different organization with different training methods and emphasis points, they start at white belt.  This is without exception.

I would do the same with _most _other Modern Arnis players.  Since MA-80 is mostly different in emphasis points and not so much structure (MA-80 is roughly 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis), they would, most likely, progress faster than a brand new white belt.  I say most Modern Arnis players because the higher ranked and (hopefully) higher skilled they are, it would be impossible to deny a black belt status.  Rich Parsons would be a good example of this.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Datu Tim Hartman

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> Since MA-80 is mostly different in emphasis points and not so much structure (MA-80 is roughly 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis)



So why bother forming a new art if it's that similar?


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## Dan Anderson

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> So why bother forming a new art if it's that similar?


Tim,

That's an odd question coming from you as you already know the answers so I'm curious about the reason behind the post in the first place.

For those that don't know of haven't been a part of some of the threads of several years ago,

1. I predicted back in 1994 in a letter to Bram Frank that when Prof. Presas died, there would be a big "Who's on first?" flap that would spread from one coast to the other (which it did).  MA-80 sidesteps that issue as it effectively takes me out of any kind of succession issue.  _I_ stepped out of that portion of the picture.

2.  The lack of very specific rank requirements up to and including 1st degree black belt had ticked me off since day one.  In my school I can set the ranks and the standards without interference from no one.

3.  As I continue my progress through the martial arts, I learn more connecting threads, so to speak, which influences my Modern Arnis training and teaching.  One example is that my blocking and striking have changed quite a bit from what little instruction I've gotten from Manong Ted Buot and balintawak eskrima.  Each influence takes me a little further from "pure Remy."  I have no problem with this as it was the same path that Prof. Presas took.  He began in his family art and went from there to learn balintawak eskrima and from there had other influences on the way, most notably Small Circle JuJutsu in the USA.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## James Patrick

Senior Master Dan, I have a question.

But before that, I wanted to say that I am with Paul Janulis' Tulisan Tactical Training. We are WMAA affiliates, but we don't do Modern Arnis specifically, so I am not much into the politics. But I had a chance to meet Professor a few years before his passing. He was a great man, and we all loved him. So I do read the stuff here even if I don't post much.

My question is, why create your own art (MA-80) if it is 90-95% Modern Arnis? Why not just say you teach Modern Arnis, and declare yourself independant? You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no? 

I asked Paul about you a while back, and he had nothing but good stuff to say; that you had gotten a 6th degree and Senior Master title from Professor, and that you were a pretty famous Karate guy. It seems that you would have just as much claims to teaching Modern Arnis your way as the next guy, without having to create your own system that is basically Modern Arnis anyways.

Thanks for reading, sir. Please take my questions as just ignorant, non-political questions. No ill intent from my end here.

Yours, 

James


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## Dan Anderson

Hi James,

First of all, it's _Dan_.  We need not rest on titles or such.  I'm glad Paul has only good things to say about me because I rank on him in fun.  Paul is a good guy.

I'll take your questions in order and I'll take them at face value - for information purposes.

_My question is, why create your own art (MA-80) if it is 90-95% Modern Arnis?_

It is more accurate to say I created my own style or system rather than my own art.  Hartman said _"a new art."_  Any student of the martial arts knows there are no new arts, only ones you didn't know about in the first place.  I keep the name "Modern Arnis" as part of it to recognize my teacher.

_Why not just say you teach Modern Arnis, and declare yourself independant?_

MA-80 is the way I am doing exactly just that.  The last portion of the name, the _80 _, is very important as it describes the viewpoint of how I teach and do Modern Arnis.

_You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no?_

Yes and no.  Working _with_, yes.  I can work with anyone autonomously because I don't have any organizational stops ahead of me.  I have no head master telling me, "Welllllll, I don't think you should associate with him."   Working within an organization or someone else's group, no.  Case in point:  I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO.  Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than ony of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will  not do in my book.

You'll find the American senior students of Remy Presas to be somewhat of a hardheaded crew, myself included.  Although the MoTTs say they are senior and the Datus say they are senior, Remy Presas never said to my face anyone was my senior but him.  Boy, hardheaded aren't I?  How to handle the conundrum?  Simple.  Do the same that I did in karate - form my own group with a title of its own.

In my eyes, all the others are fine by me.  They all worked hard and earned what they have earned.  There is no problem there.  Remy Presas was my own head master while he was alive.  As regarding Modern Arnis, I chart my own way now.  There are other masters in other arts vastly senior to me.  Manong Ted Buot of balintawak eskrima is definitely one of them.

James, does this anwer your questions?  If you have more, fire away.  Say hi to Paul for me.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Did you know that all the members of the Senior Masters Council of Modern Arnis in the Philippines have branched out into their own organizations but keep Modern Arnis as their base?


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## James Patrick

Dan,

Thanks for your reply. I still have a hard time understanding a few things, but that is probably just due to my lack of involvement in Modern Arnis politics.

Take care,

James


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## Dan Anderson

James Patrick said:
			
		

> Dan,
> 
> but that is probably just due to my lack of involvement in Modern Arnis politics.
> 
> Take care,
> 
> James



James,

You one smart cookie.

Yours,
Dan


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## arnisador

I can't understand people who don't recognize Prof. Presas' ranks. I'm not yet ready to say I know better than he did who is and who isn't good at Modern Arnis. I don't _ever_ expect to be ready to do that.


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## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:
			
		

> I can't understand people who don't recognize Prof. Presas' ranks. I'm not yet ready to say I know better than he did who is and who isn't good at Modern Arnis. I don't _ever_ expect to be ready to do that.



Arnisador,

Yes.  How does one not recognize the founder's ranks he awarded?  I can see if there was a ranking system that was not delineated or explained but the numerical belt system _is _pretty cut and dried.

Yours,
Dan


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## dearnis.com

It's easy..."I wasn't  there...I didn't see it....therefore it couldn't have happened."


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## coreymin

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> _You could work with other Modern Arnis groups probably better that way, no?_
> 
> Yes and no. Working _with_, yes. I can work with anyone autonomously because I don't have any organizational stops ahead of me. I have no head master telling me, "Welllllll, I don't think you should associate with him." Working within an organization or someone else's group, no. Case in point: I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than ony of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book.


Dan:

I will PM you later, but I would just like to make some statements about the Professor's son, Remy, that may have been miscommunicated or misconstrued, either way it's not as hardlined or anti-group oriented as you make it out, also this is not an attack on you either.

Remy Jr. just wants to see you move on the floor before deciding on any additional ranking.  In today's learning scope of people getting Black belt ranks in Kenpo for $995 from GM Roman and online easy Tai Chi courses, MARPPIO doesn't want to align itself by handing out ranks like a factory...they are not in the business side, they are on the legacy side.  In other words, Remy Jr. is doing what his father wanted him to do and carry on as his last wish BEFORE he died.  If it were me, I would want my chidlren as well to carry on all the stuff I learned into the next generation, so let's take this issue as a humanistic view here, please.  In addition, if you don't have a school already in place, such as the MARPPIO group did, they don't have a financial base to branch out from, what that means is that any $$ they get barely cover plane costs, hotels, food, etc...we've already had one of Remy's die hards screw MARPPIO out of these things in Bellview, WA and when they went home, had less money than when they started...the MARPPIO guys live in CA, they have bills just like we do.  Doing seminars around the US is not Remy Jr.'s first choice for a job...he is formally trained as a PhD, and as a scholar, likes the formality of teaching in the classroom setting, with salary, with benes, and all that...to leave it all for seminar training?  In the honor side, he's doing the right thing.  If you would have MARPPIO over to do a seminar, Dan, you would easily qualify for cross-rank in MARPPIO, but at least you would be seen, heard, and such so that Remy could give you that personal touch...

The MARPPIO group is the most NON-POLITICAL group here, guys!  If you want to help their group in any way, in an honorable fashion, believe me, they are gonna support you...Remy has cross-ranked many guys in the NSI group simply because we hold seminars with them, trade information, and look to support the Professor's last wish, simple as that.  He has also worked with groups outside of NSI as well, and continues to work with them and grade them.  So this argument is just moot.  Dan, just bring them in if you can and you'll see what I mean.  Remy Jr. is all about inclusion, not exclusion.  He still has his father's fire and drive, but simply put, he is not his father...

On the side of Seniority, Dan, if you started in 1980, what time do you think Remy's offspring started?  Do you know who they trained with?  I know early on that Remy Jr. trained from a little kid with his father, Rodell Dagooc (8th Dan), and other senior masters in the PI.  The only time he stopped was to work on his master's degree and two PhD's.  How long of a layoff do you think a couple of PhD's would take?  And, would we as "seniors" think we can just remove the time he spent training to make our pecking order in America to look better?  I think not.  In Karate, which you have studied, you may understand historically the founder's children are ABOVE any ranking system in place, they don't have rank...they only give it!  It may be the case you feel Remy Jr. isn't as skilled as you or others, but this is sidetracking the issue.  Remy is acting to connect the groups, through a legitimate bloodline, not only with Mary's blessing, but with the Professor's.  I am not going to give backhanded compliments to Remy Jr. or deny the wishes of the GM by NOT supporting MARPPIO.

Remy Jr. like his father, only guides and directs.  He never works in black and white...please accept this post to find out personally about MARPPIO, not a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th perspective, not gossip, or otherwise.  Thanks for viewing this post, and good day to all of you.

Sincerely,

Corey Minatani
National Director, Washington Research Council of Martial Arts
www.wrcma.org


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## Dan Anderson

*Hi Corey,

Let me answer a couple of points.*

Dan:

I will PM you later, but I would just like to make some statements about the Professor's son, Remy, that may have been miscommunicated or misconstrued, either way it's not as hardlined or anti-group oriented as you make it out, also this is not an attack on you either.

*Remy Jr. doesn't know me from Adam so I don't think there is any personal attack.  However, he did say exactly that to me and his English is far better than his father's.
*

Remy Jr. just wants to see you move on the floor before deciding on any additional ranking. 
*The hypothetical question I was asking him was about recognition in MARPPIO, not necessarily additional ranking.  In all fairness to Remy Jr. he did not say, "You, Dan, have to come up to MARPPIO standards."  We were talking in generalities.
*

...they are not in the business side, they are on the legacy side. In other words, Remy Jr. is doing what his father wanted him to do and carry on as his last wish BEFORE he died. If it were me, I would want my chidlren as well to carry on all the stuff I learned into the next generation, so let's take this issue as a humanistic view here, please. 
*Not a problem.*

In addition, if you don't have a school already in place, such as the MARPPIO group did, they don't have a financial base to branch out from, what that means is that any $$ they get barely cover plane costs, hotels, food, etc...we've already had one of Remy's die hards screw MARPPIO out of these things in Bellview, WA and when they went home, had less money than when they started...the MARPPIO guys live in CA, they have bills just like we do. Doing seminars around the US is not Remy Jr.'s first choice for a job...he is formally trained as a PhD, and as a scholar, likes the formality of teaching in the classroom setting, with salary, with benes, and all that...to leave it all for seminar training? In the honor side, he's doing the right thing. 
*Again, not a problem.  In fact, that's a pretty brave thing to do.*

If you would have MARPPIO over to do a seminar, Dan, you would easily qualify for cross-rank in MARPPIO, but at least you would be seen, heard, and such so that Remy could give you that personal touch...
*Not looking for rank in MARPPIO.  More personal than Remy Sr.?
*

The MARPPIO group is the most NON-POLITICAL group here, guys! If you want to help their group in any way, in an honorable fashion, believe me, they are gonna support you...Remy has cross-ranked many guys in the NSI group simply because we hold seminars with them, trade information, and look to support the Professor's last wish, simple as that. He has also worked with groups outside of NSI as well, and continues to work with them and grade them. So this argument is just moot. Dan, just bring them in if you can and you'll see what I mean. Remy Jr. is all about inclusion, not exclusion. He still has his father's fire and drive, but simply put, he is not his father...

On the side of Seniority, Dan, if you started in 1980, what time do you think Remy's offspring started? Do you know who they trained with? I know early on that Remy Jr. trained from a little kid with his father, Rodell Dagooc (8th Dan), and other senior masters in the PI. 
_Remy Sr. lamented to me in the about his kids not training except for his daughter.  If I didn't get the FULL data on that, I stand corrected.  For the sake of info, how long did Remy Jr. train in the PI, from what age to what age?_

The only time he stopped was to work on his master's degree and two PhD's. How long of a layoff do you think a couple of PhD's would take? And, would we as "seniors" think we can just remove the time he spent training to make our pecking order in America to look better? I think not. In Karate, which you have studied, you may understand historically the founder's children are ABOVE any ranking system in place, they don't have rank...they only give it!
*That is moreso Japanese karate, etc.  I haven't read anything about it in the Filipino culture.  I will check with my contacts in the PI and if I am wrong, again, I stand corrected.*

 It may be the case you feel Remy Jr. isn't as skilled as you or others, but this is sidetracking the issue. Remy is acting to connect the groups, through a legitimate bloodline, not only with Mary's blessing, but with the Professor's. I am not going to give backhanded compliments to Remy Jr. or deny the wishes of the GM by NOT supporting MARPPIO.

Remy Jr. like his father, only guides and directs. He never works in black and white...please accept this post to find out personally about MARPPIO, not a 2nd, 3rd, or 4th perspective, not gossip, or otherwise. Thanks for viewing this post, and good day to all of you.
*And to you as well, Corey.*

Sincerely,

Corey Minatani
National Director, Washington Research Council of Martial Arts
www.wrcma.org


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## Dan Anderson

dearnis.com said:
			
		

> It's easy..."I wasn't  there...I didn't see it....therefore it couldn't have happened."



Chad,

Not quite so.  I have heard varying stories from the various American seniors in Modern Arnis regarding the various titles and the ones who arent' a particular title tell me stories about the origins of that title in disparaging terms while standing up for the title they themselves have.  If you wish I can PM you with exact details but it is not for public post.

The key here is that RP never publicly clarified any of the titles.  The recipients have but up to his death, RP never did.  I include the senior master title I recieved as well.  What was publicly verified and validated was numerical rank.  I do not doubt that things were said behind closed doors.  Hell, how many of us were _privately _slated to be the successor? 
Too many.  that is what I mean by my remark.

I don't have any problem with anyone's title as in the end, it is the products they turn out, their students, that make all the difference in the world.

Yours,
Dan


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## Datu Tim Hartman

> Tim,
> 
> That's an odd question coming from you as you already know the answers so I'm curious about the reason behind the post in the first place.



Simple, Ive never bought your explanation in the past and now that YOU put in print that there is only 5  10% that is not Modern Arnis in the program it makes me ask the question why.

If I take my 04 Impala and give it a custom paint job, new wheels and stereo its been slightly modified, but according to General Motors (the manufacturer of the car) as well as the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) its still just an 04 Impala. 



> 1. I predicted back in 1994 in a letter to Bram Frank that when Prof. Presas died, there would be a big "Who's on first?" flap that would spread from one coast to the other (which it did). MA-80 sidesteps that issue as it effectively takes me out of any kind of succession issue. I stepped out of that portion of the picture.



Yes you certainly sidestep out of things and into others. The problem is that you seem to be the ONLY person who understands YOUR concept. The rest of the Modern Arnis community thinks that its a joke. 



> 2. The lack of very specific rank requirements up to and including 1st degree black belt had ticked me off since day one. In my school I can set the ranks and the standards without interference from no one.



Im sorry you felt that people could interfere in the running of your school. No one could do that in mine. I made ALL of the decisions when it came to promotions. Not even Remy. When I had students ready for Black Belt I would take them to him, all color belt promotions where left up to me.



> 3. As I continue my progress through the martial arts, I learn more connecting threads, so to speak, which influences my Modern Arnis training and teaching. One example is that my blocking and striking have changed quite a bit from what little instruction I've gotten from Manong Ted Buot and Balintawak Eskrima. Each influence takes me a little further from "pure Remy." I have no problem with this as it was the same path that Prof. Presas took. He began in his family art and went from there to learn Balintawak Eskrima and from there had other influences on the way, most notably Small Circle Jujutsu in the USA.



How does exploring our roots take us farther away from Modern Arnis? Balintawak is throughout Modern Arnis and if you actually saw Ted more than three times you might know that.



> I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than only of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book.



So what youre saying is that since you started before someone they cant surpass you in knowledge and skill?

Dan, the thing is that you have been confusing tolerance for acceptance. Many of us have been putting up with this since you started this nonsense and I for one have had enough. I'm not mixing words this time. I've tried to be subtle in the past but you missed my point. Maybe its time you took a long hard look in the mirror.


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## Dan Anderson

Datu Puti said:
			
		

> 1.  Simple, Ive never bought your explanation in the past and now that YOU put in print that there is only 5  10% that is not Modern Arnis in the program it makes me ask the question why.
> 
> 2.  If I take my 04 Impala and give it a custom paint job, new wheels and stereo its been slightly modified, but according to General Motors (the manufacturer of the car) as well as the DMV (Department of Motor Vehicles) its still just an 04 Impala.
> 
> 3.  Yes you certainly sidestep out of things and into others. The problem is that you seem to be the ONLY person who understands YOUR concept. The rest of the Modern Arnis community thinks that its a joke.
> 
> 4.  Im sorry you felt that people could interfere in the running of your school. No one could do that in mine. I made ALL of the decisions when it came to promotions. Not even Remy. When I had students ready for Black Belt I would take them to him, all color belt promotions where left up to me.
> 
> 4.  How does exploring our roots take us farther away from Modern Arnis? Balintawak is throughout Modern Arnis and if you actually saw Ted more than three times you might know that.
> 
> 5.  So what youre saying is that since you started before someone they cant surpass you in knowledge and skill?
> 
> 6.  Dan, the thing is that you have been confusing tolerance for acceptance. Many of us have been putting up with this since you started this nonsense and I for one have had enough. I'm not mixing words this time. I've tried to be subtle in the past but you missed my point. Maybe its time you took a long hard look in the mirror.



Well, it's about time you spoke up.

1.  That you or anyone else "buys" my explanation had nothing to do with the high price of corn or anything else.  I will explain a vioewpoint but it is up to anyone to accept or reject it.  Makes no difference on this end.

2.  The art is not an auto.

3.  What _you say_ the rest of the community thinks is not necessarily what _the rest of the community_ thinks.  That is such an incredible generality that it bears no further comment.  If you want to be brave and quote specifics in print, please do.  Exact time, place, form, and event would be appreciated.  You have to be original and not quote Kelly.  He has been quite forthcoming in his disagreements with me.

4.  Exploring the roots does not take us further.  What the roots show us is that certain things were taught differently when taught to us by Prof. Presas.  I used balintawak eskrima as _an _example, not _the _example.  There are more influences.

5.  That's what you are saying.  I have enough words in my mouth wihtout you trying to fit more in.

6.  Yo, Sparky!  Again the generality, _many of us_.  Didn't we go there two years ago?  Hmmmm.  Names and quotes, please.  Otherwise it's just elephant talk and you know it.  Those who have disagreed with me in the past have done so, including you.  Those who have agreed with me, have.  And those who have decided not to really give a flying rip have shown wisdom beyond their years.  Whether I have your agreement, tolerance, or whatever is immaterial.  As to a hard look in the mirror, I sleep just fine at night.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Harold!  Food fiiiiiiiight!!!!  :flame:  :CTF:


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## Tgace

Is this a private thread or can anybody jump in?

What is this debate "really" about?


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## Cebu West

The fact that I am with Datu Hartman and the WMAA will probably taint any comments I have on this subject, but this quote of yours seems to speak volumes. 

Quote
_"I was told by Remy Presas Jr. that he would recognize all ranks his father bestowed as honorary until they came up to MARPPIO standards to be a full rank in MARPPIO. Well, consider that I have been in Modern Arnis longer than only of the MoTTs, American Datus, and the sons of Remy Presas (his daughter MaryAnn has trained longer than the Americans), this will not do in my book." _ 

What I see is an angry man who feels cheated out of what he believes is his rightful place in the legacy of Modern Arnis. This would also explain why you jumped to an 8th degree in your MA-80. It puts you ahead of all those named in the quote above. When you were with the WMAA we tried to work with you, however your path seemed pre-determined and what we had to offer wasn't good enough. I feel bad that you decided to go it alone.You could have had a very good working relationship with us. We were on your side.


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## Bester

Mr. Anderson,
 I vaguely remember a comment you made a while ago. Please forgive me if I misquote you here, it has been a while. You said, I believe, that one of the last things Prof. Presas said to you prior to his passing was "Get involved". Why would he have said that if you were active and involved?

 I recall someone else stating that he (Prof. Presas) thought you had retired.

 If you weren't involved, and you weren't active, and you hadn't been around, what gives you the the idea that you should somehow be ahead of those who were? You may have started sooner than many, but how many hours have you logged compared to them? 50 hours in 5 years is not the same as 1,000 hours in a year. I'd say the later outranks the former.

 But, what do I know? Other than ranks should mean something, and be an indication of ability. Not favortism, ego, or age. Build an organization, train a generation, and let your achievements speak for themselves. Never mind the BS wall-candy, and ego-stoking "promotions". 

 True masters need not rank, nor titles, nor paper.
 They let their skill, and that of their students speak for them.


 For the record, I'm not involved in any FMA, other than I'll do a little stick sparring when the opportunity is there.


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## arnisador

Cebu West said:
			
		

> We were on your side.


 Definitely!


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## chris...

What does the 80 stand for?


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## Datu Tim Hartman

chris... said:
			
		

> What does the 80 stand for?


MA - Modern Arnis.
80 - The year he started his arnis training.


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## Dan Anderson

> Is this a private thread or can anybody jump in?  What is this debate "really" about?



Hi Tom,
Sure, jump in.  It began in a different thread having to do with one organization recognizing ranks from a different organization.  Then I made a post and the moderators separated it as a different thread.  Read from there.  Fundamentally it is about a difference in opinion between Tim Hartman and myself regarding  my personal direction in Modern Arnis.



> What I see is an angry man who feels cheated out of what he believes is his rightful place in the legacy of Modern Arnis. This would also explain why you jumped to an 8th degree in your MA-80. It puts you ahead of all those named in the quote above. When you were with the WMAA we tried to work with you, however your path seemed pre-determined and what we had to offer wasn't good enough. I feel bad that you decided to go it alone.You could have had a very good working relationship with us. We were on your side.



Sal,
You so miss the point.  I feel cheated out of nothing nor am I angry.  I _stepped out_ of what became the seniority issue that flared up upon RP's death.  The ranking in my own MA-80 is my own affair.  It only puts me ahead of all the others in MA-80.  I have stated and will continue to state that our ranks under Prof. Presas were frozen upon his death.  Tim was promoted by the board of directors of the WMAA and not by himself.  This is him recognizing the same fact, which is fine by me.  His rank in WMAA and mine in MA-80 only supercede each other's in those respective clans.  As to what WMAA had to offer me, there is more behind the scenes that I won't go into.  Personally I like everyone I met in WMAA.  You guys are a good crew and I liked training with you all.  I appreciate that you were on my side.



> Mr. Anderson,
> I vaguely remember a comment you made a while ago. Please forgive me if I misquote you here, it has been a while. You said, I believe, that one of the last things Prof. Presas said to you prior to his passing was "Get involved". Why would he have said that if you were active and involved?
> 
> I recall someone else stating that he (Prof. Presas) thought you had retired.
> 
> If you weren't involved, and you weren't active, and you hadn't been around, what gives you the the idea that you should somehow be ahead of those who were? You may have started sooner than many, but how many hours have you logged compared to them? 50 hours in 5 years is not the same as 1,000 hours in a year. I'd say the later outranks the former.
> 
> But, what do I know? Other than ranks should mean something, and be an indication of ability. Not favortism, ego, or age. Build an organization, train a generation, and let your achievements speak for themselves. Never mind the BS wall-candy, and ego-stoking "promotions".
> 
> True masters need not rank, nor titles, nor paper.
> They let their skill, and that of their students speak for them.
> 
> 
> For the record, I'm not involved in any FMA, other than I'll do a little stick sparring when the opportunity is there.


Hi Bester.  Yes, RP thought I had retired and was no longer involved. I hadn't gone to several camps but he was mistaken.  The time and training was continuing to be logged.  I *fully* agree with your last statement.



> What does the 80 stand for?


Chris,
The 80 has two meanings. 1) 1980 is the year I began training. 2) If you turn the 8 on its side you have the symbol for infinity. I remember how Prof. Presas would show us endless variations based off of one move. That gives the idea of an infinite number of actions one can do. I also remember how direct he could be if you put the heat on him? The 80 means "the possibility of anything (8) to the simplicity of the moment (0)." The 8------0 is sort of a philosophical thing.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hi All,

To Dan this is not meant for you, as you represent the art of Modern Arnis and your own art of Modern Arnis 80 in an exceptional way. To anyone else who seems to have a problem with Dan Anderson and Modern Arnis 80, I for one would look in the mirror myself and realize that it just isn't worth my time or effort. Dan is happy doing what he does, we should all be happy for him. In the last several years no one and I mean no one has done more for the art of Modern Arnis than Dan, his books are simply *exceptional*! Everyone who talked or spent time with Remy knows that he always told anyone who was with him that they were his best student, etc, etc. That is why there are so many differnt titles from Senior Master to Master's of Tapi Tapi, to Datu's etc. I have seen no evidence that anyone is better than the other and I am not knocking anyone that I have witnessed first hand! However, all this bickering at times reminds me of middle or at best high school infighting. Let the past be the past and do your best to live up to what the Professor wanted you to do!!!

just my two cents, 
Brian R. VanCise


----------



## chris...

I feel some heat in this thread however I'll add in my own comments
 From my limited experience in martial arts, one year training in kombatan, and talking with other frinds that train other styles I have come to this conclusionm. I associate FMA with a programing philosophy called open source where programmers can use the code someone else wrote and improve on it, as opposed to closed source where you are giving a program and cannot change it. This is why I chose to study FMA, therefore I say good on you for making your own style, even if its almost the same as the original, it's your version with chages you personally think are better. Others will find it better or worse then the original, we're not all the same, we all prefer different methods and styles.


----------



## James Miller

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Hi All,
> 
> In the last several years no one and I mean no one has done more for the art of Modern Arnis than Dan



Brian-

Could you please explain? :asian:


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

James,

It is pretty simple really!  Many Modern Arnis people are doing great things for their art and the martial arts community.  Some people are doing videos, seminars, teaching etc.  Dan is one of the only people to take up the mantel and really tackle the often difficult and painstaking task of publishing books.  As someone who has done video work and wrote a book, let me tell you that there is no comparison in the amount of hard work between the two!  I am not demeaning anyone for their accomplishments all who work hard to teach, provide videos, DVD's, books etc, are good in my book.  However, Dan has really filled a need and took it upon himself to fill a gap that was out there and in my opinion he has done more than anyone else out there because of it!  Just my opinion, feel free to disagree!!!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Tgace

What "damage" or offense is Dan being accused of here anyway? Whats "wrong" with MA-80??


----------



## DragonMind

Here's my take on the whole situation; observing from the cheap seats.

Remy Presas learns his family style of FMA. He then goes on to learn other FMA systems and eventually creates his own interpretation that he names "Modern Arnis". New art? Not really, more a new way of teaching and organizing what he knew. Was it static? No, he added things he learned from Wally Jay and others along the way. Is this unique? No, it seems that a lot of other folks in the PI that are his peers and contemporaries did the same thing. Heck, just about every martial art style in the world has gone through something similar. Why call it "Modern Arnis" instead of just "Arnis"? To identify it as his particular spin on arnis.

Now Remy Presas goes out and teaches a LOT of people about his Modern Arnis. Who gave him his rank? His father? His grandfather? His peers? Does anyone really care?

Fast forward 20+ years. There are a bunch of people out there practicing and teaching "Modern Arnis" with Remy Presas' blessing. He's given ranks and titles to people because they care about those things. Some folks have diverged from Remy Presas' way to follow their own path. Some have returned to the roots before "Modern Arnis" to see where Remy Presas has been. But "Modern Arnis" is still Remy Presas' vision and held together by his personality.

Remy Presas passes away. What is to become of "Modern Arnis"? Simple answer is the cycle begins again. Those who learned Remy Presas' "Modern Arnis" can choose to continue with what he created and nothing more, or they can create their own interpretation (much as he did with his family style), or they can move on to something entirely new.

My first real exposure to Modern Arnis was from Bruce Chiu and Jerry Ingle back in 2000. They teach what they learned from Remy Presas. I don't see Bruce any more so I can't say what road he has taken. Jerry Ingle continues to go back to the tapes, books and seminar notes from Remy Presas and adds to what he knows by working with Ray Dionaldo. I started looking around for someone to continue studying the legacy that Remy Presas left behind in greater depth. I found Dan's books and corresponded with him to see what my options were. In April I had the chance to spend four solid days training one-on-one with Dan. Every subject that we covered, Dan was always careful to explain what came directly from Remy Presas and what was his spin. This is exactly what Dan does in all his books. His MA-80 is designed in the same vein as what Remy Presas himself did. He took what he learned and added his own pieces and named it in such a way that folks could tell what its origin was and that it is his personal spin.

What I also found interesting is that at many points during our four days, Dan would pull out tapes of Tim Hartman, Dieter Knuttel, Jeff Delaney or Kelly Worden to emphasize a particular point or show another way of doing something to help me understand what he was trying to get across. He didn't bad-mouth them or denigrate them. What came out time and again was that MA-80 is his design for a curriculum to teach what he learned from Remy Presas plus what he adds from his own experience and training. It is supposed to be a living system, just as Modern Arnis was while Remy Presas was alive. And, just as Remy Presas was in charge of Modern Arnis, Dan is in charge of MA-80. In that, I see little difference between what he has done and any of the other folks, except that he has not established any organizations. Frankly, I prefer it that way. Martial arts styles are not democracies and function poorly when forced to act like one. I give you the World Taekwondo Federation as a shining example of how to ruin an art by letting an organization run things. Maybe the Modern Arnis organizations can avoid the same fate as TKD, Hapkido, Kenpo and a dozen others that have tried. I wish them luck, but the kind of sniping I've seen just in this forum bodes ill for success.

As for rank, why is there such a huff that so-and-so is a 7 and somebody else is an 8 or a 6 or a 42? What rank was Remy Presas? What criteria did he meet to be classified as an X? Or is this all just a bunch of ego-puffing? Tim Hartman did what he did for his own reasons. Dan did what he did for his own reasons. Who has any right to tell them they are wrong? Since the answer is no one, GET OVER IT FOLKS! You look like a bunch of preening peacocks from out here in the bleachers. Salvage what you can of your dignity and get back on track. Now that Remy Presas is gone, we're looking to you folks to show us a way of honoring what he created and moving on into the future. For me, that is MA-80.


----------



## James Miller

Well let me start by introducing myself. My name is James Miller and I have been associated with Datu Hartman for quite some time. Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased towards Mr. Hartman. OK, here we go!

*Brian-*
I would agree with you on how hard it is doing videos and books. Ive recently helped Hartman shoot a video for* NAPMA* for their monthly (August) packet. A simple 20 minute spot took over 90 minutes. Where I have to disagree with you is your comment on Anderson filling a *NEED* for Modern Arnis books. Prof. Presas not only has 3 books, but also has released 25 videos. There are plenty of these types of reference material. What is important is that the will is settled so this material can be readily available to the masses.

Another point that I disagree with you is the seminars and camps not being as important. The above media can be used to *supplement* training, but not meant to *substitute* proper instruction. I feel that groups like IMAF, MARPIO, NSI, WMAA, etc. have been doing the bulk of the work on continuing as well as spreading Presas system. No disrespect to Mr. Anderson, but the majority of the seminars that he has taught since Presas passing has been on his American Freestyle Karate.  

*Barry-*
You wrote this:


> Now that Remy Presas is gone, we're looking to you folks to show us a way of *honoring  * what he created and moving on into the future.


I think the real problem is that many of us got to know Remy personally so we have a personal attachment to his legacy. In Parkers Kenpo there are many different organizations all teaching the same system. Each organization has their own twist on the same program, yet they all give credit to the founder Ed Parker Sr. by calling either Parkers Kenpo or American Kenpo Karate. They do not name it PK-85 or AKK-Y2K. I think some people may *perceive* Andersons actions as disrespectful.


*Chris*
I think the problem is perception of terms. There are Martial *Systems* and there are *styles* of expression. In the above statement I make reference to different Kenpo organizations doing the same art with their own flair. If its the same system is there a need to rename it? By renaming it does it truly give credit to the original founder? In the case of MA-80, if its only 5  10% different does it really merit a name change? This is not an attack, just asking.

*Mr. Anderson*
I think the promotion to 8th degree is the biggest problem here, but not for the reason you might think. Since you are the *Founder* of MA-80 why stop at 8th? If you are the head and founder of your *style * you should be 9th or 10th. I can see why you wouldnt want to promote yourself to 10th degree. In a conversation with Hartman, he told me that he wouldnt take one past 9th degree, leaving the 10th open out of respect for Remy. By taking the 8th that puts you one degree over several of the Datus. If you were a 7th already that would be acceptable, but this was not the case. You were a 6th and skipped to 8th putting you *ONE* above everyone else. If you were to step back a little and look at this from a different angle, you might see how people may *perceive* this differently than you.

The above are some observations from *MY * point of view. They are not meant as attacks and I want to apologize in advance if I offended anyone with this post. I will be offline for the rest of this week and part of the following one due to the *WMAA Camp* this weekend.

 :asian:


----------



## Tgace

How does an 8th in his own style put him "over" anybody in another style?


----------



## James Miller

Becuase most people feel that Mr Anderson is teaching Modern Arnis. As people have commented earlier if it's only 5 - 10% different is it truly a different system?  

Have a nice weekend! Time to rest before I get to be a pinyada sp. this weekend.

 :asian:  :whip:  :whip:  :asian:


----------



## Bob Hubbard

I think it's the numbers that folks focus on...the idea that all levels are equal. That a 6th in the IMAF (Presas) = 6th in the IMAF (Delany) = 6th (WMAA) = 6th (MARPPIO) , etc...
Numbers are the same, but the skill level, material known, etc are different.

Take any 2 schools in the same Kenpo organization for example.  Same curiculum, same ranks, but both schools have some variations in what they teach.  School 1 does a little more weapon work, school 2, more grappling.  Suddenly, they are 5-10% apart.  Does this qualify them as founders of seperate arts/styles/systems?

Folks see what Dan has done to be on the same level as that, but with high rank/titles that are seen as him putting himself ahead of them. Dan says this isn't the case, that his MA80 rank and his MA rank are seperate ranks.  If thats true, then, why the fuss?


----------



## Tgace

So if Dan would have started a separate organization but not a separate "style" this would be a non-issue?


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Maybe.  Maybe not.  It's all semantics to me. :shrug:


----------



## Tgace

Which leads me to wonder, when we look at different schools of Karate, Ryu of Swordsmanship etc. what precentage of difference is there (or should there be) to be considered a legitimate "style". I believe that Politics, differences in philosophy and economics drove a lot of that in the past....


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Hi Everyone,

I really feel this is an issue that should be best taken up between the two parties!  Clearly there are issues between the WMAA and Dan Anderson, you guys need to quit snipping at each other and let your old issues die.  When I entered this thread I thought It was pretty apparent reading between the lines that you guys need to grow up and stop wasting time on silly threads like this!  Certainly, my opinion that Dan has done a lot for Modern Arnis because of his publishing efforts has bothered some!  If you look at what I wrote, I did not demean anyone for doing seminar, videos, DVD's etc.  Those are great mediums to do work in.  However I noted that publishing a book is more difficult, which is TRUE!  Books, Videos, DVD's etc are all really good avenues but never, ever, ever should be used to replace qualified instruction!  Finally as someone who trains Modern Arnis, Arnis, Eskrima, etc. who also has no ties to any organization but his own, I would say I am done with this thread!  I have no dislike, animosity, etc, etc, to anyone here, IT IS JUST NOT WORTH MY TIME!!!  See ya around and keep training hard!

Brian R. VanCise


----------



## Dan Anderson

WMAA said:
			
		

> Well let me start by introducing myself. My name is James Miller and I have been associated with Datu Hartman for quite some time. Obviously my opinion will be slightly biased towards Mr. Hartman. OK, here we go!
> 
> *Brian-*
> I would agree with you on how hard it is doing videos and books. Ive recently helped Hartman shoot a video for* NAPMA* for their monthly (August) packet. A simple 20 minute spot took over 90 minutes. Where I have to disagree with you is your comment on Anderson filling a *NEED* for Modern Arnis books. Prof. Presas not only has 3 books, but also has released 25 videos. There are plenty of these types of reference material. What is important is that the will is settled so this material can be readily available to the masses.
> 
> Another point that I disagree with you is the seminars and camps not being as important. The above media can be used to *supplement* training, but not meant to *substitute* proper instruction. I feel that groups like IMAF, MARPIO, NSI, WMAA, etc. have been doing the bulk of the work on continuing as well as spreading Presas system. No disrespect to Mr. Anderson, but the majority of the seminars that he has taught since Presas passing has been on his American Freestyle Karate.
> 
> *Barry-*
> You wrote this:
> I think the real problem is that many of us got to know Remy personally so we have a personal attachment to his legacy. In Parkers Kenpo there are many different organizations all teaching the same system. Each organization has their own twist on the same program, yet they all give credit to the founder Ed Parker Sr. by calling either Parkers Kenpo or American Kenpo Karate. They do not name it PK-85 or AKK-Y2K. I think some people may *perceive* Andersons actions as disrespectful.
> 
> 
> *Chris*
> I think the problem is perception of terms. There are Martial *Systems* and there are *styles* of expression. In the above statement I make reference to different Kenpo organizations doing the same art with their own flair. If its the same system is there a need to rename it? By renaming it does it truly give credit to the original founder? In the case of MA-80, if its only 5  10% different does it really merit a name change? This is not an attack, just asking.
> 
> *Mr. Anderson*
> I think the promotion to 8th degree is the biggest problem here, but not for the reason you might think. Since you are the *Founder* of MA-80 why stop at 8th? If you are the head and founder of your *style * you should be 9th or 10th. I can see why you wouldnt want to promote yourself to 10th degree. In a conversation with Hartman, he told me that he wouldnt take one past 9th degree, leaving the 10th open out of respect for Remy. By taking the 8th that puts you one degree over several of the Datus. If you were a 7th already that would be acceptable, but this was not the case. You were a 6th and skipped to 8th putting you *ONE* above everyone else. If you were to step back a little and look at this from a different angle, you might see how people may *perceive* this differently than you.
> 
> The above are some observations from *MY * point of view. They are not meant as attacks and I want to apologize in advance if I offended anyone with this post. I will be offline for the rest of this week and part of the following one due to the *WMAA Camp* this weekend.
> 
> :asian:



Hi James,

Your polite queries deserve polite answers.  RP released a number of videos, however, many of them are not in general production at this time.  The Black Belt magazine videos are the easiest available video works.  His book through Ohara Publications is the easiest book.  The MARPPIO website had his two other books.  Many people don't have know where to get his first 7 videos and his latest batch, I believe, are found only on Jeff Delaney's IMAF site.  His materials are not as easy to find since his death.

The majority of my seminars have been karate but I _have _been teaching Modern Arnis seminars as well.

Some people may perceive my actions as disrespectful but to be perfectly honest, there have been only TWO people who have come right out and said so: Kelly Worden and Tim Hartman.  I have been in communication with _ALL _the Datus and _ALL _the MoTTs and with Senior Master Roland Dantes in the PI and no one has stated any kind of problem with what I am doing.  The rank and file basically don't care.  

Does it merit a name change?  In my opinion, yes.  The _technical base_ is 90-95% Remy Presas Modern Arnis.  The technical emphasis points, the philosophy behind why and how I teach and what I feel are the important points are what make the difference between what I teach and what Tim, Kelly, et al does.  Definition 2.of "style" Encarta dictionary - _a way of doing something, especially a way regarded as expressing a particular attitude or typifying a particular period_  What I do is a style of Modern Arnis and it has a difference in name for that reason.  Does it give disrespect to the founder?  No.  Otherwise I'd come up with a totally different name for it.  That anyone's diagreement translated into a feeling of me being disrepectful is unfortunate.

Why stop at 8th?  A couple of reasons.  1.  It goes with the "80" and the philosophical meaning of the title.  2.  It was an arbitrary place to stop as that is the highest number I would feel comfortable with.  An interesting thing I found out after the fact is that the longest term students of Prof. Presas, the ones who started with him in the Philippines (Roland Dantes, Rodel Dagooc, Pepito Robas, Vic Sanchez, & Jerry DeLaCruz) all considered their ranks frozen at 8th degree as that is the highest Prof. Presas promoted them to.  This is stated in Reynaldo Galang's Book _Warrior Arts of the Philippines._  I would've loved to claim that reason but I was too late for that.  

A point I'll make here is that in seminars I have always represented myself as a student of Remy Presas.  I don't push the 8th degree or all that on others outside my school.  A very good cases in point is at the ArnisFest put on by IMAF, Ken Smith, when introducing me to the group I was about to teach asked me in front of eveyone if I was an 8th degree.  My reply was "I am a 6th under Remy."   

Kaith,


> Folks see what Dan has done to be on the same level as that, but with high rank/titles that are seen as him putting himself ahead of them. Dan says this isn't the case, that his MA80 rank and his MA rank are seperate ranks. If thats true, then, why the fuss?


How many folks?  Again a generality.  People who talk to me don't really care one way or another.  They ARE separate ranks.  There is no fuss except where created and continued.

In closing, Tgace presented the perfect post that really says it all:


> What "damage" or offense is Dan being accused of here anyway? Whats "wrong" with MA-80??


No damage, folks, just a disagreement.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## bart

I'm reminded of the 85/15 and 80/20 rules used by Juran and Deming in the area of Quality Management in manufacturing. 

85/15 Rule (Juran's Rule):

85% of boons or problems are a result of the system. 15% are due to the workers. 

80/20 Rule (Pareto Rule):

80% of serious performance issues (positive or negative) arise from 20% of the problems or boons. 

Using these two concepts it is pretty clear that a small percentage of what composes a system can greatly impact the larger remainder. Although most often understood in the subject of production problems and quality control the original context applies to both negative and positive results. 80-85% of any endeavor is the system. The remaining 15-20% is the individual. The 15-20% can impact greatly the other 80-85%. Dan's reasoning for Modern Arnis 80 seems almost tailored from the latter of these two concepts. 

As for the charges of disrespect to the founder...it seems to me like Dan's giving credit where credit is due. He learned Modern Arnis and now it's Modern Arnis 80 because it's his and his teacher is dead. It's still Modern Arnis but taught by Dan in his method. The little bit that is changed seems logically enough to justify it's existence as a separate branch of that system.


----------



## Dan Anderson

bart said:
			
		

> Dan's reasoning for Modern Arnis 80 seems almost tailored from the latter of these two concepts.
> 
> As for the charges of disrespect to the founder...it seems to me like Dan's giving credit where credit is due. He learned Modern Arnis and now it's Modern Arnis 80 because it's his and his teacher is dead. It's still Modern Arnis but taught by Dan in his method. The little bit that is changed seems logically enough to justify it's existence as a separate branch of that system.



Fascinating!  I've never even heard of those concepts.  Well, what do you know?

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Tgace

Hmmmm...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9550&highlight=MA-80

:idunno:


----------



## Bester

"Hmmmm" what?
It's a 2 year old post.  Search around enough on any forum and you'll find conflicting things.


----------



## Tgace

Well either they encourage the propagation of MA-80 or they (WMAA) dont. If they NOW dont. Why the change? I would think an encouragement from the top dog would be acceptance...Unless the organization announced a different statement I havent seen.


----------



## Bester

The message in question:


> Good Luck Dan Anderson
> 
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> We at the WMAA would like to wish Dan Anderson good luck with his endeavors to propagate his MA-80 organization. It was an interesting ride while he was a member of our organization and has left us with some very lasting memories. We hope his martial art journey is very rewarding.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Datu Tim Hartman
> World Modern Arnis Alliance



Looks like any other "neutral" seperation statement I've seen. I've seen similar notices when people have left or been force to leave jobs under less than pleasant circumstances.

Encouragement is not the same as endorsement.  I've told many people "Good Luck" when I really meant "Sod Off."

Anyway, what do you care? Working on a sokeship or know anyone who is?


----------



## Bester

Mr. Anderson,
  Where can we find your videos and books?  Also, where will you be touring this summer?


----------



## Tgace

Bester said:
			
		

> The message in question:
> 
> 
> Looks like any other "neutral" seperation statement I've seen. I've seen similar notices when people have left or been force to leave jobs under less than pleasant circumstances.
> 
> Encouragement is not the same as endorsement. I've told many people "Good Luck" when I really meant "Sod Off."
> 
> Anyway, what do you care? Working on a sokeship or know anyone who is?


Well..if these guys didnt want input from the peanut gallery then perhaps this shouldnt be in a public forum eh? For that matter why do you care? :idunno:


----------



## Bester

I don't. But you didn't answer my question.

A detailed search didn't turn up any other statement.  I just wonder how many others aren't able to read between the lines on the original.


----------



## Tgace

Hmm..I dont really know what the question is. Unless its that "Soke" comment which is no ...and no.:idunno:


Unless you are implying that Dans promotion is equivalent to a "sokeship"? If this is a "soke" thing. I think an individual with a high rank in an art who takes that art in his own direction is miles different from someone who takes two 1st dans, puts together his own style in a mish mash and declares himself a 10th dan. Could be wrong but thats how I see it.


----------



## Bester

You're right, they are different.  I don't think Mr. Anderson is dumb enough to buy a sokeship.  I honestly think taking a small difference and claiming a foundership to be a little misleading, but Mr. Anderson's karate background, competition experience, various publications and seminar instructions as well as being a 6th under a well respected innovator such as GM Presas may allow for such things.    It's a different story if one was say, only a 3rd in one art, and had no current rank in others but somehow became a founder and swapped rank with his buddies. I mean, that sort of thing is a bit less honorable.

If Mr. Anderson believes that his additions/changes to the core Modern Arnis system qualify it as deserving it's own distinction, that is his call.  It would I think have been more of an issue if he had called it "Anderson Style Modern Arnis". Ultimately, regardless of the names it is called, or the ranks/titles in play, it is Mr. Anderson's ability that will be the determination of "worth".  Not us arguing on a forum, thousands of miles apart.  It is Mr. Andersons ability to pass his vision down, through his books, videos, seminars and most importantly, his students. Students being a reflection of the teacher, if their skills are sharp, their form good, and their honor intact, it will grow.

Anyone can write a book, or make a video. Any idiot can teach a seminar. Trust me, I know. But in the martial arts, it is that ability to pass on your knowledge that will tell the tale in the end.  GM Presas had an organization, and helped create and develop many excellent martial artists such as his Datus, Senior Masters and MOTTS. What they do with what he gave them, and what they pass on I think will tell if they were worthy of those titles and honors.  A guy with 5 students, no blackbelts, working out of his garage is alot different than someone who has a sucessful seminar career, or video library, etc.

There seem to be people in the Modern Arnis world that for what ever reason have problems with these people. The Hartmans, Wordens, etc.  They seem to do stuff, and inspire alot of good people to learn good things.  Pity you all can't work together more, but instead have to spend so much time tearing each other apart. I doubt any of you have "learned it all", and if you think you have, more is the pity. 

But, what do I know?  Other than all the "knotted panties" that are constantly on display here are a poor reflection on your art, yourselves, and most importantly your founder. It tends I think to drive more people away from studying Modern Arnis than atracts. But, who cares right? As long as one gets the final word, and had kicked his "enemy"'s ***, who cares if in the process they themselves look the fool, right?

No concern of mine really, just an outsiders view on how stupid all this bickering looks. I'm done. I have ninjas to annoy, soke's to make cry, and losers to fry! :wavey:


----------



## DoxN4cer

Bester really hit the nail on the head.  

FWIW, Dan Anderson is a class act.  He makes every imaginable attempt to be friendly with everyone.  No matter who screws him, he won't say a bad word about them.  Moreover; he is man enough to settle his differences with people person to person, and if it cannot be resolved he's happy to quietly let it be. Furthermore; Dan's presentaion of Modern Arnis/MA80 is clean and damn near unadulterated RP Modern Arnis.  He does not scrub material from videos and seminars of other prominent FMA instructors and inrtuduce them as "innovations" the Professor's art or independently discovered "new concepts".  He's honest about what he does.  I doubt that many of his critcs can say the same.

All this fuss two years after the Dan Anderson/WMAA split would certainly lead a reasonable person to believe that it is all orchestrated to draw support away from Dan's training camp.  It's all territory that has been visited before.  Do we *really* want to go there again? Hmm?  

It's Dan's gig.  Leave him to it.  

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## Tgace

Little tangent Bester, but has Dr. Hatsumi initiated any plan to prevent these same issues with his art when he eventually passes?


----------



## DoxN4cer

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> The key here is that RP never publicly clarified any of the titles.  The recipients have but up to his death, RP never did.  I include the senior master title I recieved as well.  What was publicly verified and validated was numerical rank.  I do not doubt that things were said behind closed doors.  Hell, how many of us were _privately _slated to be the successor?
> Too many.  that is what I mean by my remark.



I snipped you post for brevity, Dan.  No dis...

The Professor said a lot of things behind a lot of closed doors.  I think that often it may have been just what his audience at the time wanted to hear. Yes, I know it's not a nice thing to say.  However, you can't deny it.  I too have been present when the Professor told me (and people around me) "how he really felt" about certain people.  These statements, however, were not for the public and would simply cause more friction.   

One things for sure; everyone thought that they got what the wanted, and everyone felt like the #1 student in his presence.

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## Bester

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Bester really hit the nail on the head.
> 
> FWIW, Dan Anderson is a class act. He makes every imaginable attempt to be friendly with everyone. No matter who screws him, he won't say a bad word about them. Moreover; he is man enough to settle his differences with people person to person, and if it cannot be resolved he's happy to quietly let it be. Furthermore; Dan's presentaion of Modern Arnis/MA80 is clean and damn near unadulterated RP Modern Arnis. He does not scrub material from videos and seminars of other prominent FMA instructors and inrtuduce them as "innovations" the Professor's art or independently discovered "new concepts". He's honest about what he does. I doubt that many of his critcs can say the same.


That sounds like you're speaking about someone specific. Well damn it man, name names. Don't drop hints and tease us like that. Call a spade a spade already!



> All this fuss two years after the Dan Anderson/WMAA split would certainly lead a reasonable person to believe that it is all orchestrated to draw support away from Dan's training camp. It's all territory that has been visited before. Do we *really* want to go there again? Hmm?


I've seen alot of the past pissing, moaning and game playing. Bunches of nobodies, think they should be somebodies, can't let their deeds speak for them, so they play games on the internet.  It's all best left in the past. We shouldn't light the shadows nor should we dishonor the dead.



> It's Dan's gig. Leave him to it.


Yup.  It'll prove it's worth or not over the next few years.  I even heard there was a rumor they were going to get Brad Pitt to play Mr. Anderson in a movie version of one of his books.  (just kidding, sorry ladies.)


----------



## Bester

Tgace said:
			
		

> Little tangent Bester, but has Dr. Hatsumi initiated any plan to prevent these same issues with his art when he eventually passes?


My understanding is that something is plannen, but it's not spoken of at this time. I'm not a member of the Buj, so am not privy to the info.


----------



## DoxN4cer

Bester said:
			
		

> That sounds like you're speaking about someone specific. Well damn it man, name names. Don't drop hints and tease us like that. Call a spade a spade already!



Do not tempt me so... 

Now Bester, you know better than that.  If I named names, then I would get flamed and suspended... maybe even banned.  That's how things work when someone brings reality into this little cyber-reich that we've all come to enjoy so much.  Besides; the people I'm alluding to know who they are, and they know that I'm talking to them.  That's enough for me.

Do a little research, and you'll figure it out.  If you've ever trained with them it would be very evident to you as well.  I'm not being coy, just staying within the parameters of MT rules.

r/

Tim Kashino


----------



## Rich Parsons

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> I snipped you post for brevity, Dan.  No dis...
> 
> The Professor said a lot of things behind a lot of closed doors.  I think that often it may have been just what his audience at the time wanted to hear. Yes, I know it's not a nice thing to say.  However, you can't deny it.  I too have been present when the Professor told me (and people around me) "how he really felt" about certain people.  These statements, however, were not for the public and would simply cause more friction.
> 
> One things for sure; everyone thought that they got what the wanted, and everyone felt like the #1 student in his presence.
> 
> r/
> 
> Tim Kashino




I would have to agree with this. Sometimes in private he would say things differently than in public.


----------



## DoxN4cer

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I would have to agree with this. Sometimes in private he would say things differently than in public.



Hi, Rich.  Miss me? hehe

Tim


----------



## Rich Parsons

DoxN4cer said:
			
		

> Hi, Rich.  Miss me? hehe
> 
> Tim



Honestly, Yes I miss everyone.


----------



## Bester

But, isn't taking veiled shots at someone considered a violation of this sites "Sniping Policy"? Especially if the "shot at" parties "know" it's aimed at them?

Personally, I think if you can't come right out and say it, and say it clearly, then it shouldn't be said.

Too many games played behind closed doors by closeminded, bitter, sad old men. 

Or, are you saying that this boards "Powers that Be" will censor you if you dare speak the "Evil Ones" name? 

My own take on all this is that Modern Arnis is a simple system, with no real history or information to share. After all, the Kenpoists have dozens of threads on technique, form, history and such. Same is true of the Koreans, argumentive and sometimes anal bunch that they are. Let's not forget the ninjas, busy flipping out whenever a PowerRanger walks into the room. But not Arnis. No. Arnis is all about spending a few years arguing over who is king, rather than showing it. It's like reading the latest WWF pay per view. "*In this corner weighing 270 pounds, I'm sorry, 217! pounds, The Pretty Boy, Datu DeeToo Tim Hartman. And in the other corner, weighing in at 265 pounds, the Oregon Destroyer, Dan The Karate Man Anderson!! Former Tag Team partners now turned bitter rivals. In The Pretty Boys Corner for this bout is the Washington Assassin himself, Datu Kelly "The Hammer" Worden. Can the two Datus get along? The rively has been bitter, but they have joined forces to defeat the Evil Mr. Anderson. Neo, where are you! In Mr. Andersons corner, a small datsun named Colin.*

*Join us later as we feature our IMAF grudge match, Schea vs. Delany in an empty arena.*"

Please, I looked at the back history, the games, the arguments. Ya'll look like a group of school yard children fighting over a bike. Let Mr. Anderson do his own thing. He'll make it, or he'll flop. It's in his hands. Everyone else, well, I guess you can actually show your art does something besides generate sad bitter jokes, or, you can go back to picking the flesh off Mr. Presas' body. Up to you all really. Arnis isn't my gig.


----------



## Cruentus

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Honestly, Yes I miss everyone.



And it is a good thing that giants aren't good at throwing, or I would have been hit many-a-times....

Sorry, just passing through and I couldn't resist.... :uhyeah:


----------



## Cruentus

Another thing I couldn't resist...



> And in the other corner, weighing in at 265 pounds, the Oregon Destroyer, Dan The Karate Man Anderson!!



Dan Anderson only wieghs 265 when he is carrying me on his back. :rofl:


----------



## DoxN4cer

Amusing parody of Celebrity Death Match.  But seriously, if Arnis isn't your gig, then why get involved in the dicussion at all?  

You may be right in terms of the rules.  The rules seem to be flexible every now and then.  I might be "riding the line" as it were.  

I'm with you though.  Let Dan do is thing.  

r/

Tim


----------



## Tgace

To say that this **** is peculiar to Arnis is more than a little disingenuous too. I see this same type of stuff going on in many of the forums around here. The only difference possibly being a possible lack of other significant content in the Arnis forums....


----------



## Bester

Why get involved?  Good question.
Because I care about the arts, not the egos. 
You all could be so much, if you would leave the egos behind, and just be.

I noticed your account had been closed previously. Honestly Mr. Kashino, did you come back to share your insights and experiences in this art, to help us better understand it, or did you come back simply to take shots at someone you can't get along with?  If it's the latter, please leave.   I would love to hear the 'fun' stories, to understand the ideas, concepts and thoughts behind all the different interpretations of Arnis.  I, and so many others here I think though, really don't need any more mud, hatred or BS.

I read back through this section. I saw the "Im king, no Im king" bickering right after Mr. Presas' death.  The slams, shots and outright attacks on individuals and organizations. None of which did anyone any good I think. I read the crap surrounding the Presas family, Mr. Delaney, the MOTTS, the 4 way dance of infinity between Mr. Hartman, Mr. Worden, Mr. Anderson and your own instructor. I read the Symposium threads, the "NorShadow" situation, the MA80 war.  All of it.

And I wonder why.
Why would I ever want to study a system that creates such hatred, such lack of respect, such immaturity. Why sir?

My understanding is that Mr. Presas on his deathbed asked Mr. Anderson to get involved.  So, he did. Mr. Anderson is "doing his own thing", a statement repeated often by Mr. Worden, I believe. But they don't get along now.

I've read a great deal about each of these individuals.  They all seem to have alot to offer, if we can ever wash away all the mud, the hate and the disrespect.

As I said, I'm a student of almost all the arts.  Arnis sounds interesting, but one becomes a reflection of ones teachers. I don't like what I see in the Arnis teachers, or their students that represent them.  Too much ego, too much anger, too much closemindedness.

Let them do their own thing, and you do yours. In the end, you will be reflected by those you've taught and influenced. Let Dan Anderson's legacy be his students and what he leaves to them.  Same is true for them all.


----------



## Bester

Tgace said:
			
		

> To say that this **** is peculiar to Arnis is more than a little disingenuous too. I see this same type of stuff going on in many of the forums around here. The only difference possibly being a possible lack of other significant content in the Arnis forums....


Well, can't you people build some content, or is the only thing Arnis people can do is put each other down online?

No, it's not peculiar to Arnis.  I've seen it in all the forums.  But the crap:content ratio is so much higher here. I've been told that this is the best Modern Arnis forum around.  If this is the best, I have to wonder about the worst, you know?

Wouldn't it make more sense to actually make it the best?  You thought it was worth supporting, so did I. I looked in the video area. Not much in there.  Why can't people send in clips of them showing what real Arnis is? I recall Kaith saying he'd happily host the clips if they were sent to him. Take the guy up on his offer.  I mean, right now there are 5 MA clips, 1 an obvious "fantasy" piece with lightsabers. Nice edit, Nice form, but really, is that all? Has Mr. Hubbard so earned the hatred of the Modern Arnis community that they won't take him up on an offer of what is really free advertising?  Kinda dumb in my opinion. 

Rather than keep arguing, lets see all the masters and would-be masters send him in a few minutes each. Lets see it all, and then, lets talk about it all in here. 

Or, we can keep the dirty laundry, egos, attitudes and stupidity going. Again, up to everyone here. Not me.


----------



## Bester

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Another thing I couldn't resist...
> 
> 
> 
> Dan Anderson only wieghs 265 when he is carrying me on his back. :rofl:


The proper place for a tagteam partner is in the corner.  Colins already there, so you'll have to leave sir.  You can announce it though.  Heres a mike. :wavey:


----------



## DoxN4cer

You sound a lot like someone else who posts here... almost like Tulisan.  Hmmm...  

From my observation, for someone who doesn't "need anymore mud, hatred
or BS" you sure have a habit of getting into the mix of it.  It's like your
involvement helps keep it going, as if to guide and/or derail the topic.  In
essence, you're helping perpetuate the strife.  

My account had been closed due to in activity.  Why did I come back? 
I've got a case of desert insomnia, so I sat down at the nearest terminal
and started surfing.  I must admit that I usually have far more important 
things to do than fool around on the internet, but I have a lull in my 
activities for the moment.  

My "veiled" comments as you put it are more a show of support for
Dan Anderson and less of a snipe at certain people.  I can see where you
might jump to that conclusion given one of my previous posts.  

r/

Tim


----------



## Bester

Nope, not him.  I'm me.  I answered those questions a while ago dealing with the PowerRangers trainees.

No, I'm asking if you have anything to build this section up. Not continue your old wars. I read those tales. I read your part. I wasn't impressed. Few were I suspect. 

So, going to kill the boredom with content, or going to continue to sling mud?

Lets try the content idea eh? New thread, tell us a story of a time you trained with Mr. Presas. Describe your black belt test.  Were you nervous? Did you sweat? Did you throw up or turn pale from exhaustion? Have you brought anyone else up? If so, how did it feel when they tested? What technique really challenged you? What came naturally? Do you like pie? Have you seen videos by any of the Arnis seniors? Any good?  Etc.  Content Sir.  Not mud.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Bester said:
			
		

> I looked in the video area. Not much in there. Why can't people send in clips of them showing what real Arnis is? I recall Kaith saying he'd happily host the clips if they were sent to him. Take the guy up on his offer. I mean, right now there are 5 MA clips, 1 an obvious "fantasy" piece with lightsabers. Nice edit, Nice form, but really, is that all? Has Mr. Hubbard so earned the hatred of the Modern Arnis community that they won't take him up on an offer of what is really free advertising?


 I'll happily put up video clips if they are sent in. Link em right back to the sender, full credit, etc. I've got alot of new content to add to the library once I get done processing this last weekends footage, and I think I have some of Dan from one of the times he was in town. I'll check, but if he wants to send something in, I'll put it up. Same offer is there for anyone willing to send it in. Tim, Kelly, Dieter, Jeff, Dan etc. It's all good just a little different.

 As to the hatred thing...I only know of 1 or 2 who might severely dislike me. I know of several who like me. A few aren't thrilled by me, some tolerate me, and I think most don't care or don't know me. *shrug* It's life, I deal.


----------



## Tgace

And since most of us have only met on the internet, there are times where we each cross into all those categories eh?


----------



## DoxN4cer

Yep. I have to agree with you, Bester... arguments on the internet are a lot like competing in the Special Olympics.  

FWIW Bob; I don't dislike you.  I don't know enough about you to like or dislike you.  You do a pretty good job with MT though.

r/

Tim


----------



## Dan Anderson

Greetings Earth Creatures,

I was up in Canada for the weekend, blinked, and missed two whole pages worth.  Wow!  I think I'll dub this topic the "Phoenix topic" - it surfaces every so often from the dead.

Bester - My summer touring is pretty limited this year however I am teaching at a summer camp in North Carolina in a couple of weeks, hope to get to the Detroit area around August or September, and then I'll be in Tacoma August 26th or 29th, and then on Victoria Island on the 29th of September.  You can get books/videos from my website www.danandersonkarate.com.

It appears this discussion has now been blown out of proportion (again).  Those of you who support me I thank.  Those who don't I thank as well.  You make me strong.  

A point I'd like to make is those who do not agree with me basically have a different viewpoint and _that _is the bottom line.  I _may or may not like_ that Tim Hartman or Kelly Worden disagree with how I am doing or what I call my Modern Arnis but it _is_ their prerogative to do so.  It _is_ a free country and I support their right to disagree.  I have too much to do to spend much energy on the "cyberbattle."

Oh...265 pounds???  Yikes!  I just weighed myself yesterday and it only said 185.  All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - Bester, despite the politics that arise from time to time, the art is absolutely wonderful.


----------



## Cebu West

I would like to set the record straight as to the presumed timing and intentions of the WMAA concerning this thread and Dan Anderson's MA-80. 

At no time did we ever discuss any idea of sabotaging Dan's camp. Considering the fact that we were also conducting a camp during the time of this thread, it would serve no purpose to intentionally bring negativity to our own group. We do not appreciate Tim K's comments and his assumed know all attitude. People have known our position on this subject for some time now and also where Tim K's loyalties lie. Tim Hartman has never hidden his feelings on this subject so this is nothing new on his part. 

As to the timing of his comments, that coincided with Dan's statement that his MA-80 was 90/95% Modern Arnis. Dan had never stated that before and when he did he drew the question, Then why a new system with a new name? 
Tim K's quote below also justifies the same question.

*



			Dan's presentaion of Modern Arnis/MA80 is clean and damn near unadulterated RP Modern Arnis.
		
Click to expand...

*
Again I will say that we did not set this in motion. 

Sal Todaro (Cebu West-WMAA)


----------



## arnisador

Tgace said:
			
		

> Which leads me to wonder, when we look at different schools of Karate, Ryu of Swordsmanship etc. what precentage of difference is there (or should there be) to be considered a legitimate "style". I believe that Politics, differences in philosophy and economics drove a lot of that in the past....


 I'm reminded of the old saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." To a linguist's point of view, Sedish/Norwegian, Spanish/Portuguese, etc., are just dialects of one language, while some "dialects" of Chinese are so far apart that they could be adjudged separate languages. But, politics intervenes...Spain and Portugal insist they're separate countries with their own languages, while China says they're one country with one language.

 Maybe there's something similar with martial arts!


----------



## arnisador

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> I would have to agree with this. Sometimes in private he would say things differently than in public.


 He liked to see people happy...a nice thought, but it did lead to some contradictions.


----------



## Tgace

arnisador said:
			
		

> I'm reminded of the old saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." To a linguist's point of view, Sedish/Norwegian, Spanish/Portuguese, etc., are just dialects of one language, while some "dialects" of Chinese are so far apart that they could be adjudged separate languages. But, politics intervenes...Spain and Portugal insist they're separate countries with their own languages, while China says they're one country with one language.
> 
> Maybe there's something similar with martial arts!


Nice analogy.

Unless you are the French who want to keep their language pure by outlawing english words eh?


----------



## arnisador

Cebu West said:
			
		

> Again I will say that we did not set this in motion.


 Agreed. I don't recall anything like it coming up, and I think we had much more important things to worry about from the WMAA's point of view. What seems to have been the catalyst is the fact that someone placed a number on by what percent it had changed.

 I like Mr. Anderson. I like his books. I like his analytical approach. I see the argument that if the art hasn't changed very much then one should err on the side of keeping things together--and I see the argument that a slight change of emphasis can lead to a large change as it ripples through the system. I see the argument that he has a small group and so this seems unnecessary--and I the the argument that expressing one's own view is expressing one's own view no matter what size the audience. Mr. Anderson is in the best position to determine where the line is in each case.

 I am not sure I think it's a big enough change between Modern Arnis and MA-80 to justify a new name. There's at least as big a difference between the WMAA and either IMAF, and probably more between the WMAA and MARPPIO. I strongly believe, however, that Mr. Anderson is well within his rights, and that there's no reason he should care one way or the other what I think about it; it's his decision. I wish Mr. Anderson well.


----------



## arnisador

Tgace said:
			
		

> Unless you are the French


 Hey, if you accuse me of being French, then we _will_ have a fight on our hands!


----------



## Tgace

Engarde! (a little French lingo for ya there)


:jediduel:


----------



## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:
			
		

> I am not sure I think it's a big enough change between Modern Arnis and MA-80 to justify a new name. There's at least as big a difference between the WMAA and either IMAF, and probably more between the WMAA and MARPPIO. I strongly believe, however, that Mr. Anderson is well within his rights, and that there's no reason he should care one way or the other what I think about it; it's his decision. I wish Mr. Anderson well.



Arnisador,

Actually there is a pretty decent gap between the WMAA curriculum (from what I have seen of it) and MA-80.  The first thing I can bring up is the different sections of WMAA curriculum such as the "Kali" section and so forth.  I do not subdivide with Filipino names the different aspects of the art in my school.  In fact, I use no Filipino terminology other than what you find in my books.  RP didn't use them with me so I follow suit in kind.  Thee and me have no arguement regarding the matter.  In fact, I was thinking today that you and I get along the best of the WMAA crew.  How's that for communicating over the airwaves?     Thanks for the well wishes.

Anyone reading this thread, hope to see you in Brevard next week.  We're going to have a hell of a camp! artyon: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> In fact, I was thinking today that you and I get along the best of the WMAA crew.


 Great minds think alike, I always say!


----------



## bart

Dan Anderson said:
			
		

> ...Actually there is a pretty decent gap between the WMAA curriculum (from what I have seen of it) and MA-80.  The first thing I can bring up is the different sections of WMAA curriculum such as the "Kali" section and so forth...




First of all I am not offering this as criticism. Tempers tend to flare in discussions of this matter, but truly my interest is purely academic and not meant to spark a debate about the term "kali" and its validity as a general term. That argument has been done in and outside of this forum ad nauseum. I am not a proponent of the term "kali" but neither am I a detractor. I am simply curious as to why "kali" would be used within the curriculum of modern arnis at all.  

I looked at the website (www.wmarnis.com) and it appears that the "kali" sections refer to matters involving the manipulation of the stick. Is that the differentiation? Internally to WMAA instruction, are the students led to believe that "kali" refers to stick manipulation specifically? Is the WMAA the only group to use "kali" in such a manner in their curriculum? Was "kali" a term commonly used by Remy Presas to refer to "stickwork"?


----------



## James Miller

bart said:
			
		

> I am simply curious as to why "kali" would be used within the curriculum of modern arnis at all.


Datu Hartman uses generics uses the following as generic terms to classify material:

Mano  Mano:   Punching, Kick, Trapping, etc.
Dumog:  Locking, Throwing, etc
Anyos:   Forms
Kali  Escrima*: Weapon Training

*In the 3.0 version of the curriculum it has been updated to the above.

When Datu teaches he makes a point of telling people that these are only generic terms being used in the Modern Arnis system.


----------



## Dan Anderson

bart said:
			
		

> *1.* Is the WMAA the only group to use "kali" in such a manner in their curriculum? *2.* Was "kali" a term commonly used by Remy Presas to refer to "stickwork"?


Hi Bart,
1.  Yes.
2.  No.



> Mano  Mano: Punching, Kick, Trapping, etc.
> Dumog: Locking, Throwing, etc
> Anyos: Forms
> Kali  Escrima*: Weapon Training


Prof. Presas did use the term _anyo _for the forms and once in a while the term _dumog_.  The distinct classification of the technical groupings is Tim's.  This is how he specifies.  No good, no bad - just how he does it.  RP didn't it do that much.



> Great minds think alike, I always say!


As long as our socks don't stink alike!  :rofl: 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

Yes, he uses them very generically and always makes that clear. He doesn't mean kali as a specific system but rather as what people usually think of when they hear the word used in this context: FMA weapons usage. The Dumog is the Professor's SCJJ-influenced material, given a Filipino label. In fact, he and I spoke with Rick Manglinong about the terms dumog and buno, and their proper usage, this past weekend.

I'm not sure I've ever heard Remy Presas use the term Kali, to be honest...but then, his first book was on escrima and that became arnis, so I'm also not convinced he was too hung up on any of this language.


----------



## Cruentus

arnisador said:
			
		

> Great minds think alike, I always say!



eh...screw you guys.... :rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Black Grass

arnisador said:
			
		

> ...
> I'm not sure I've ever heard Remy Presas use the term Kali, to be honest...



I remember him using the term 'kali' once. he said that the word is/comes from an ilongo term for threshing rice to remove the husks.

Vince


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi All,

I saw this after, what, two years or more? Boy, have things changed since then! Not only has this forum cooled down by quite a bit but MA-80 as well. Tiime for an update description. First a little history.

Two years ago I was in the UK and from viewing the "library tapes" of seminars I was doing then, I saw I was moving differently. The next year (why the UK is a catalyst for me is a wonder in itself) I found that I was _"no longer doing Remy's art."_ I was now doing _"Dan's art."_ This is a natural progression for anyone who is training in any martial art; the root is one thing and what it developes into is something else. I can say that even though the root of MA-80 is definitely Remy Presas Modern Arnis, much, much more of the technical and viewpoint changes are definitely _"Dan-isms."_ The ratio is much more of a 65/45% Remy/Dan these days. When I really got I was doing more of "Dan's art" was when I realized that I would debate _anyone_ including my late teacher as to why I would teach something in a certain way or how I would execute, etc. 

Instead of making any kind of a broadcast regarding my epiphany, I got in touch with two of my "older brothers" in Modern Arnis, Roland Dantes and Rene Tongson. I remember the brouhaha that erupted the last time I mentioned MA-80 and especially the accusation that I was being disrespectful to the memory of Remy Presas. I went over the above with them and not only got rave support from the both of them but recognition from International Modern Arnis Federation Philippines of MA-80 being a legitimate branch of Modern Arnis as well. http://danandersonkarate.com/promotion.html

During the trip to the Philippines and the 1st Remy Presas Memorial Training Camp I had the honor to be a founding member of the Worldwide Family Of Modern Arnis (name was changed this last summer from Brotherhood). Most recently I received recognition from the Philippine Classical Arnis Council as Founder of MA-80.

One of the more fascinating things is that in the last several years since the several years, all of us who have been propagating Modern Arnis, no matter the organizational or affiliation ties, we have been continuing the art and it is as strong now as it ever has been.

Anyway, an update for you all regarding a long dead thread. MA-80 is it's own art, recognized in the Philippines. All for now.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

I'm glad to hear you're keeping things going. I think we all are moving in our own directions now to a greater or lesser extent.



Dan Anderson said:


> The ratio is much more of a 65/45% Remy/Dan these days.



Now that's really giving _110%_!!!


----------



## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:


> I'm glad to hear you're keeping things going. I think we all are moving in our own directions now to a greater or lesser extent. Now that's really giving _110%_!!!


 
The truth is now known! Tim Hartman is dyslexic and I don't do math well!!! :highfive:

Yes, we are all following the core principles we each got from Prof. Presas.
Add our respective personality differences and the art continues in different flavors.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Mark Lynn

Dan

Did you ever get my email with my mailing address?

Mark


----------



## Dan Anderson

Been majorly busy - please resend.  Your DVD is made and waiting for me to get off my behind and send it.

dan


----------



## donald

James Miller said:


> *Barry-*
> You wrote this:
> I think the real problem is that many of us got to know Remy personally so we have a personal attachment to his legacy. In Parkers Kenpo there are many different organizations all teaching the same system. Each organization has their own twist on the same program, yet they all give credit to the founder Ed Parker Sr. by calling either Parkers Kenpo or American Kenpo Karate. They do not name it PK-85 or AKK-Y2K. I think some people may *perceive* Andersons actions as disrespectful.
> 
> Mr.Miller,
> 
> I have never been a FMA practioner, and only comment here because of your statement above. Also I am a nobody in the kenpo world, just an enthusiast who has been around for awhile.
> Just a point of clarification regarding your statement concerning EPAK. Although most who practice any EPAK variation give credit where credit is due. Even in so doing some have formed their own systems (ala MA-80) and while still giving Mr.Parker Sr. his props they have given their twist a new moniker, ie:Kenpo 2000, AKKI, Speakman's 5.0, etc., etc.. I think that if you add enough of your own spin to what you have learned from someone. You should probably come up with a new "name", ie:Mr.Parker Sr., Mr.Remy Sr., Mr.Peter Urban, Mr.Jeff Speakman. Because technically you are not teaching their "system" anymore, but a true variation of same. It sounds to me like Mr.Anderson is doing the honorable thing. Instead of staying in an arena, where the potential lies to argue about whose Presas Modern Arnis is purer, best whatever as well as containing the potential for confusion within the "ranks" of RMA. He stepped out into his own arena, and thereby gave it his  "personal" stamp while continuing to give props where props are due. As long as he is'nt making false claims why not salute the man, and get on with it? Let me conclude this stating that I mean no disrespect to anyone involved in this. I just wanted to add my 2 cents regarding EPAK, and this situation in general from the outside looking in.
> Salute,
> 1stJohn1:9


----------



## donald

In looking over the post I just realized that my over all comments should have been directed to "Barry". My apologies to Mr.Miller if I have offended in any way.

Salute,
1stJohn1:9


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson,
 I can't wait to meet and train with you at the Atlanta camp in june. Bob Quinn has told me alot about you and i have been looking at your site. I was wondering if you will be bringing any hard copys of your books or dvds to sell at the camp.
 Chip Pike


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi Chip,

Hi.  We're going to have a good time at Bobby's camp.  I'm really looking forward to it.  I'll bring mostly DVDs.  Maybe some books but since they are heavier I try not to overload my luggage with them.  If you have a specific request I can bring some sepcifically for you.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## bobquinn

OKAY, Truth be said about SM Anderson on the not wanting to have his luggae to heavy is I have to carry his dang luggae and also the more room he has the cool stuff he can bring home to his love,

Bob Q


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hmmmm, Bob carrying my luggage for me sheds a different light on the subject.  All sorts of possibilities.

DA


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson,
Thank you for the offer to bring the books I am interrested in. *MODERN ARNIS: The Art Within Your Art - The Book Of Basics *or *TRANKADA: The Ties That Bind*. I hope it is not to much trouble.
 Chip Pike


----------



## arnisador

Definitely, get Mr. Anderson's books!


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

arnisador said:


> Definitely, get Mr. Anderson's books!


 
Yes they are the best Modern Arnis books out there.  You will have a good time training with Dan and I  look forward to having him up here to Michigan again!


----------



## Dan Anderson

Chip,

Can do.

Brian & Arnisador,

Thaks for the kudos.

Dan


----------



## hapkenkido

SM Anderson,
 Thank you, and I look forward to the camp.
Chip Pike


----------



## Dan Anderson

You bet - we'll have a great time.

On a totally different note, thanks to Brian VanCise and his help on uploading video material, I'll be sending up a composite clip of various MA-80 seminars I've done (including in the Philippines) and another composite clip of various DVDs I've put out.  Keep your eyes peeled and await in eager anticipation!

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

*Dan is his own man with his own system*.  What is so hard to understand about that?

Having been on the floor and crossed blades with Dan I vouch that he has skill to do what he wants when he wants with his art.  Those are his choices and he is sufficently skilled to do so. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





What I most applaud Dan for is categorizing, organizing and publishing all of his books on Modern Arnis and Modern Arnis 80. (they are fantastic) Truly a fantastic job and if you have any doubt the undertaking was massive.  Kudos to you Dan and good luck on your recent adventure!


----------



## tshadowchaser

Nicely said


----------



## Dan Anderson

Tim,

Have fun in AC.  Are you competing or mainly fielding a team?  Give us an update when it is all said and done.

Dan


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

Dan Anderson said:


> Tim,
> 
> Have fun in AC.  Are you competing or mainly fielding a team?  Give us an update when it is all said and done.
> 
> Dan



Both.


----------



## bobquinn

Hey, I'm in the room! We all respect and protect what we had with the Professor. He told me, as he told some other folks, some people will try to enter into our circle. Let's be viligant and watch. peace to my brothers.
I went through my old videos and came across some videos of me being Tim's uke on behave of the GM. I'll dig it out


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

The Last Legionary said:


> Tim, you're right, it's his right to do as he sees fit. However I don't think you're one to talk about promotions, all things considered.


What are you talking about?


----------



## The Last Legionary

Datu Tim Hartman said:


> What are you talking about?


Do you really want me to go there Tim?


----------



## The Game

The Last Legionary said:


> Do you really want me to go there Tim?


Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> Dan,
> First a congratulations. Showing what you've got and being recognized for it is a wonderful thing.
> 
> I do have a question though. What does this all do for you other than pad an all ready respectible resume a bit with some extra fluff?


 
Legionary,

My last post answers your question fully.  Please reread.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Mark Lynn

Dan

That's commitment, I dropped you off a at 11:30pm and your posting at 1:00am on MT.  Did the Starbucks coffee and good conversation keep you up? 

Dan had just taught a 2 hour mini seminar for Keith Yates and his AKaTo Organization and then sat around discussing the golden age of karate, martial arts etc etc. with my karate instructor and GM Yates for a couple of hours.  (What a history lesson for me.)

Well time to get going to take you to the airport.

I'll see about posting a review of your seminar for GM Yates and Chance B. later today.

Mark


----------



## Brian Johns

Dan,

Congrats on your achievement !

Take care,
Brian


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

The Last Legionary said:


> Do you really want me to go there Tim?


Sure. I doubt you're going to bring up anything that hasn't been said before.


----------



## The Last Legionary

The Game said:


> Dude, don't even bother going there. The only people, and I use that term loosely, that still give a **** about that old news are a couple of long exiled hacks and nobodies stuck stewing in their own little fantasy world of envy playing with all their sockpuppets. In fact, they even have their own little mailing list dedicted to constantly harping about it and rarely talking about anything else. Seriously, MT doesn't need the old BS dusted off again. Dead horse and all that brudda.


"Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Tim,
 I'm going to lay out a time line here, so follow the bouncing ball Datu. What follows are your own words here on MartialTalk. I'm sure I'll take some **** for this but I'm used to it.




> 10-13-2001
> "I know GM Presas has a brother...Ernesto? Is he involved with Modern Arnis?
> Ernesto has his own art Kombaton. It is not the same program."
> 
> 12-13-2001
> "Guro Rick Manglinong
> Started training with GM Presas in the early 70's on the West Coast. In addition to being a 2nd degree under GM Remy he also hold a 4th under GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's brother).
> Mr. Manglinong will be teaching:"Old School" Modern Arnis and Kombaton Concepts."
> 
> 01-12-2002
> "For a while GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's younger brother) would use the same name of Modern Arnis for the program he was teaching. Although there are many things alike, it is not the same program. Eventually after the two brothers had a talk Ernesto changed his program name to Kombaton. Before this time Ernesto promoted many poeple in europe in the name of Modern Arnis. This has caused much confusion many of these people still call the program Modern Arnis even though the name has been changed."
> 
> 01-26-2002
> "Guro Rick Manglinong
> Started training with GM Presas in the 70's on the West Coast. In addition to being a certified instructor under GM Remy he also holds a 5th under GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's brother).
> Mr. Manglinong will be teaching:"Old School" Modern Arnis and Kombaton Concepts."
> 
> 01-26-2002
> "I had talked to GM Ernesto about a year ago and he told me that he didn't do Balintawak. Being a student of Balintawak myself, I can't say that he moves like some one who does the art."
> 
> 02-10-2002
> "It was nice to finally meet Datu Worden face to face and a pleasure to meet Prof Trigg. I didn't know that Trigg was the first to bring Remy and Ernesto Presas to the Portland area. "
> 
> 09-09-2002
> "The main problem is in the name of Modern Arnis. At this time there is only one. Before there was two. One taught by Remy, and a second taught by his brother Ernesto. Most of the Europeans that do Modern Arnis do the Ernesto&#8217;s style were most of the Americans do Remy&#8217;s.
> 
> Eventually Ernesto changed the name to Kombaton. Many of the Europeans still call it Modern Arnis. This is where the problem begins. When we in America say Modern Arnis we think of the founder &#8220;Remy Presas&#8221; not his younger brother Ernesto. "
> 
> 11-30-2002
> "Remember that Ernesto had to change the name because of Remy. So this would mean that you were licensed to teach KOMBATON. "
> 
> 07-21-2004
> "This is a hard one. I think that the only ones who could tell us for sure are Ernesto & Roberto Presas. When I see them in April I will ask them. Let me first say this, I think there is a difference between Presas family arnis and Modern Arnis. Remy&#8217;s first exposure to FMA was during WW2. He was watching his father teaching the military"
> 
> 03-07-2005
> "As far as any rumors of style rivalries go, I would say are false. Both Remy and Ernesto treated each others students as family. The second time I met Ernesto his wife was there and we all went to the casino together and I was treated as a member. Are the family problems TABOO? I don&#8217;t think so. Should they be exposed on the net? I think that would be in poor taste. Know this, if you attend events in either program you will most likely treat like one of our family."
> 
> 05-13-2007
> "PG Manglinong and I were awarded 9th degree black belts in Kombatan and I was shocked when GM Ernesto introduced us as Grandmaster Manglinong and Grandmaster Hartman. "



Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a GrandMaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork.  
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.


----------



## The Game

The Last Legionary said:


> "Dude", it's a legit question. Hartman's history is pretty interesting reading, and as you noted, a regular discussion topic with some. But for the sake of not rehashing old ****, I'll skip the dead horse ****.


Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days.  The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.

As to Dan, he's ok.  Congratulations.


----------



## Guro Harold

Errrr,

Maybe it's time to split this off this portion of the discussion to "Questions regarding T.H." or something.

T.H. and MA-80 are two separate topics.


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Game said:


> Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.
> 
> As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.


 
Yeah, this is all about me! 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## exile

_*ATTENTION ALL USERS:*_

Please keep the discussion at a mature, respectful level. Please review our sniping policy http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26480. Feel free to use the Ignore feature to ignore members whose posts you do not wish to read (it is at the bottom of each member's profile). Thank you.

-Bob Levine
-MT Moderator-


----------



## bobquinn

I agree, Let's keep it clean. One question for many! The Professor gave us the saying,"art within your art". Why are we piddling in the wind when we should , just do our thing and let nature take it's course.
We all have a place and a place has us all. Lighten up!
I asked Dan one time"Dan what did I do to that guy? His reply was Not what I did what that guy said!, HMMM.


Bob Quinn


----------



## The Last Legionary

The Game said:


> Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.


 
I'm afraid I don't know who you are referring to. Care to enlighten me?



Palusut said:


> Errrr,
> 
> Maybe it's time to split this off this portion of the discussion to "Questions regarding T.H." or something.
> 
> T.H. and MA-80 are two separate topics.


 
Fine with me.


----------



## Morgan

The Game said:


> Dude, who ****ing pissed in your punchbowl lately? You've been a royal dickhead the last few days. The only morons who buy the "promoted by his students" crap are the same wannabe hack nobodies who have been pissing and moaning for years about him. Been debunked more times than you've changed your socks this month. You want to whine about crap you're clueless about, go hang out with those jock sniffers.
> 
> As to Dan, he's ok. Congratulations.


 
Mr. Game, 

I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion.  Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:

01-31-2003, 10:19 PM 
Jeff Leader 
Posts: n/a 
Casino Cash: $ 



*Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.*
​On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.

This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.

The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.

/s/
Jeffery J. Leader, PhD

for the WMAA Advisory Board:

Charles E. Dulin
Paul Janulis
Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
Ingmar Johansson
Sal Todaro​
06-07-2005, 07:18 PM 
arnisador 
*Martial Talk
Sr. Grandmaster*​Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Terre Haute, IN
Posts: 27,581 
Casino Cash: $14629 
Thanks: 177
Thanked 77 Times in 54 Posts 

*Founding Member*
*20,000 Post Club*
Rep Power: 34 


*WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.*
​The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt. 

The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.

The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.

The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.

/s/ Jeffery J. Leader
Jeffery J. Leader
Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro​
Morgan


----------



## The Game

Morgan said:


> Mr. Game,
> 
> I believe that you're in error regarding the promotion.  Below are 2 announcements which were posted on martialtalk.com:
> 
> 01-31-2003, 10:19 PM
> Jeff Leader
> Posts: n/a
> Casino Cash: $
> 
> 
> 
> *Promotion of Tim Hartman by WMAA Board.*
> ​On behalf of the Advisory Board of the World Modern Arnis Alliance, it is my privilege and pleasure to announce that the Board has promoted Datu Tim Hartman to the rank of 7th degree black belt (Lakan Pito), effective 31 January 2003.
> 
> This promotion comes after considerable deliberation by the Board as well as consultation with WMAA members and outside experts regarding not only Mr. Hartman's suitability for promotion but also the best way to proceed with high-level promotions in the absence of an accepted promotional authority at the highest levels of the art. The promotion is in recognition of his physical skill and additionally his contributions to spreading the art and organizing the WMAA and its curriculum.
> 
> The Board extends its congratulations to Datu Hartman.
> 
> /s/
> Jeffery J. Leader, PhD
> 
> for the WMAA Advisory Board:
> 
> Charles E. Dulin
> Paul Janulis
> Jeffery J. Leader (Chair)
> Ingmar Johansson
> Sal Todaro
> 
> 
> 06-07-2005, 07:18 PM
> arnisador
> *Martial Talk
> Sr. Grandmaster*​Join Date: Aug 2001
> Location: Terre Haute, IN
> Posts: 27,581
> Casino Cash: $14629
> Thanks: 177
> Thanked 77 Times in 54 Posts
> 
> *Founding Member*
> *20,000 Post Club*
> Rep Power: 34
> 
> 
> *WMAA: Promotion of Datu Tim Hartman.*
> ​The Board of Advisors of the World Modern Arnis Alliance is pleased to announce the promotion of Datu Timothy J. Hartman to the rank of Lakan Siyam, 9th degree black belt.
> 
> The promotion was made on 5 June 2005 in West Seneca, NY. The promotion not only recognizes Datu Hartman's technical skill and his leadership role in Modern Arnis; it also places him at the apex of the rank chain in the WMAA, as befits the Technical Director and President of the organization. This will allow him to promote other WMAA members, such as those currently holding the rank of 5th degree black belt, to appropriate ranks within the WMAA in the future.
> 
> The Board wishes to emphasize the fact that Datu Hartman's Lakan Siyam rank refers to his rank within the WMAA. His rank from Prof. Presas is Lakan Anim, 6th degree black belt. The Board also wishes to reiterate that it is the position of the WMAA that all Modern Arnis Datus are equal in status. This numerical rank is within this organization, internal to the WMAA, and does not imply that Datu Hartman is ranked either above or below any other Datu with higher or lower numerical rank.
> 
> The Board congratulates Datu Hartman on his achievements.
> 
> /s/ Jeffery J. Leader
> Jeffery J. Leader
> Chair, WMAA Board of Advisors
> On Behalf of the Board of Advisors: Chad Dulin, Paul Janulis, Jeff Leader, Rick Manglinong, Steve Scott, Sal Todaro​
> Morgan


What's your point Morgan?
Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession. 

This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!


> Q- Who promoted Tim Hartman to 9th Degree? A- The World Modern Arnis Alliance Board of Directors. (also referred to as Advisory Board)
> 
> Q- Aren't these his juniors in the arts? A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members hold rank in Modern Arnis issued by Remy Presas, some of them hold rank in other FMA systems, some hold rank in other non-FMA systems. Some hold rank under the WMAA. Some have been training longer, and some shorter.
> 
> Q- Aren't these his students?A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.



At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Well, until Tim stops ducking and puts up an answer, my opinion and comments stand. Thread should probably be split since the Hartman promotions really don't have anything to do with Dan-o's promotion.


Getting back to Dan-o, I have a few other questions.
How many MA80 blackbelts are there?
How many blackbelts have you produced?
How many schools teach MA80?
How many seminars do you do each year, roughly, and where?
What do you like on your pizza?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

The WMAA training camp starts tomorrow and runs thew the weekend. When it is over I'll be more than happy to address LL's questions about the Presas family endorsement (Kombatan promotion to 9th and GM) I received in April of 2007. I wont be addressing Barber's, I mean Morgan's posts about the 9th degree WMAA promotion. It has been discussed way more than needed. Everyone has said their peace on the matter and are entitled to their own opinions. 

Hope to see some of you at the camp this weekend!


----------



## arnisador

Have a good camp!


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Last Legionary said:


> Getting back to Dan-o, I have a few other questions.
> *1.*How many MA80 blackbelts are there?
> *2.*How many blackbelts have you produced?
> *3.*How many schools teach MA80?
> *4.*How many seminars do you do each year, roughly, and where?
> *5.*What do you like on your pizza?


1. Myself, Tom Corsin, Justin Mangum, Kevin Warden, Toma Rosenzwieg, Darren Davies, Barry McConnell & Don Kerstetter. Bram Frank is also recognized within MA-80.
2. Overall, roughly 50 or so.
3. Three.
4. Roughly 12 or so. Usually the USA although last year I taguth in the UK and Germany and the previous year I taught in the Philippines and UK.
5. Sausage, beef, pineapple, pepperoni, cheese and there can't be too much garlic.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Morgan

The Game said:


> What's your point Morgan?
> Hartman was promoted to 7th and 9th by the WMAA board, a recognized international Modern Arnis organization. The "student promotion" fantasy has been debated and debunked, a long time ago. The only people who still have issues are the same couple of assclowns from Buffalo that always have, and all of their imaginary friends in their little "list" where all topics always return to their obsession.
> 
> This was also posted, on MT, on FMAT, on Wikipedia and even in the dungpile with the dungballs. Of course, dungballs are only so smart. HAHA!
> 
> 
> At the time, the little toadies insisted that path was wrong, and that Hartman should have gone to the PI for it to be legit. So he does, and he is recognized by Remy's own brother, and now it's a whine about how that too was wrong. Like any of them are anywhere near the knowledge or skill of the FMA and Modern Arnis like Remy and Ernesto. What makes their so called judgement better than that of recognized legit FMA Grandmasters? Of course, for a group that goes on so about rank and tradition, they never mention that not a single one of them made it past second with Remy, and I doubt that any have legitimately tested in years.


 
My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman.  Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?

Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.  

Morgan


----------



## The Game

Morgan said:


> My point is that from what I've read on this forum, ALL of the WMAA people who participated in the 2 promotions were or had been students of Datu Hartman.  Is it your position that NONE of the people named in the two posts were EVER students of Datu Hartman?
> 
> Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.
> 
> Morgan


You don't read too good do ya boy? 
Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.



> Q- Aren't these his students?
> A- Yes and no. The WMAA BOD is made up of leading members of the WMAA on a rotating basis. Some of these members have trained under Datu Hartman. Some have not.



In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.

Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?

Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?

Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all.  Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?

Chew on that for a few.


----------



## Archangel M

More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.


----------



## Dan Anderson

The Game said:


> Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, _who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student_. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?


 
*Hi Game*,

Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be _his junior_ in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such. 

As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head. 

He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way _and_ the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.

*Morgan*,

Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto _is_ best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.

I knew my announcement would _light up the switchboard_. How's that for showing my age? 

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## bobquinn

Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's seems to be some whining from the underage. I applaud all that have kept the flame of contraversy alive. I've run stuff with all the freindly faces spoken about with regard to rank and in no doubt they all have game! Bingo.

B Quinn


----------



## arnisador

The funny thing is...all this about _rank_, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack _skill_?


----------



## Dan Anderson

> Mr. Anderson I think it might be time to ask for ID's


Bobby,

I'd _LOVE_ for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...


> The funny thing is...all this about _rank_, which most people profess not to be so impressed by anyway. Is anyone suggesting that either of these individuals lack _skill_?


Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.

Yours,
Moi


----------



## The Game

Archangel M said:


> More FMA political combat? You guys are close to tieing Ninjutsu.


 
FMA politics is a beast all it's own. Has something to do with most of us carry and most of us are a bit nuts from too many headshots. 
:lol:



Dan Anderson said:


> *Hi Game*,
> 
> Need to clear up something. I am Bram's senior in Remy Presas Modern Arnis. He holds a position in MA-80 just as I hold a position in CSSD/SC. In a way of looking at it I suppose he would be my junior in MA-80. In the same way of looking at it I would be _his junior_ in CSSD/SC. Neither of us look upon the other as such.


 
So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.



> As he has been in the martial arts about the same number of years as I have (coming up on 42 years in the martial arts overall - who out there is over 42 years old let alone in the martial arts for that long?), he is my contemporary. What is not broadly known is that Bram is not only experienced in Modern Arnis as it is supposed but he has experience in Hung Gar Kung Fu, Wing Chun Kung Fu and American Karate from the Mid-America school in Minnesota - there are others but these are what I remember right off the top of my head.


 
But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.



> He also tested for position on the Grand Masters Council two years before me so in a way of thinking he could be viewed as my senior as regards the council membership. As I said neither of us look at it that way _and_ the other members of the board were definitiely my seniors.


 
So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?




Dan Anderson said:


> Bobby,
> 
> I'd _LOVE_ for some real names to pop up so I know who is talking. Oh well...
> 
> Ain't nobody said nuttin yet.
> 
> Yours,
> Moi


 

Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do. :lol:
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here.  My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.


----------



## bobquinn

Hey Dick,
BQ here we have alot of likes other then the american made thought. Odd training in asian arts! I admire your willingness to hit the mat! Only better colors then Black and Blue are the Red,White & Blue! Hartman,Anderson & Frank are the real deal. Been there, done that. Hey your post makes for, You know your a red neck!

Robert Quinn


----------



## Morgan

The Game said:


> You don't read too good do ya boy?
> Let me re-quote, and I'll make it a bigger font for easier reading. Dang larger screens, make it too easy to miss facts.
> 
> 
> 
> In any event, you're a few years too late for that debate. *** I said, only a couple of wannabe hacks in WNY really care about that. They're too busy spiting on GM Presas now, which shows more of their true character.
> 
> Speaking of which, how do you know who has what relations with who?
> 
> Of course, we can define "student" as "someone who learned something from someone else", but that would make my own list so large it would make even my head spin. We can also say that only someones real teacher should promote them, but that would invalidate so many of these "promotions by rank boards" that go on these days, now wouldn't it?
> 
> Now, if we go that same route, lets go back to Dan here, since it is his thread after all. Dan was promoted by a board, on that board was Bram Frank, who holds a lower rank in MA80 than Dan, which would indicate that Bram was Dan's Student. So, doesn't that invalidate Dan's promotion since it involved his student?
> 
> Chew on that for a few.


 
Thanks for your reply and the yes/no answer.  There's no need to 
fine tune the "student" defintion.  It was neither helpful nor harmful.
Your statements are appriciated.

Morgan


----------



## Morgan

Dan Anderson said:


> *Morgan*,
> 
> Tim's thing regarding his position in WMAA by whom and ranking and so forth as well as subsequnt ranking and titling by GM Ernesto _is_ best taken up by Tim himself. He and I have spoken over the phone on it and I understand his viewpoint on the whole matter. As I am not WMAA and he is not MA-80, neither of us us have any conflict on the subject.
> 
> I knew my announcement would _light up the switchboard_. How's that for showing my age?
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


 
Dear SM Anderson,

I wrote the following in a recent post:

_Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman. 
_
I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.  

With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion.  Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point.  Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation. 

Morgan


----------



## The Last Legionary

Speaking of Bram Frank, is this the same person who on at least one occasion brought a live blade onto the training floor and carved up his assistant? I question the judgement of anyone who would do such a thing.

I'm also reserving my comments until Tim recovers from his camp this past weekend and posts his reply to my questions.

I will say this. If he was promoted by students from his school I'd consider that an invalid promotion, to say the least.


----------



## The Last Legionary

Morgan said:


> Dear SM Anderson,
> 
> I wrote the following in a recent post:
> 
> _Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman.
> _
> I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
> Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter.
> 
> With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion.  Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point.  Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation.
> 
> Morgan


Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior. 

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?


----------



## bobquinn

Thank you Mr. Hubbard,

Better have never been spoken.

Bob Q


----------



## Dan Anderson

*Oh my God!  This is turning into a civil discussion.  Yikes!*

*Hi Richard,*
*Glad to meet you.*
Quote:
So you gave each other rank in each others respective systems.
*No rank per se but recognition.  Neither of us have a numerical rank with the other.*
Quote:
But, what numerical ranks does he hold in all of those? Those numbers seem to be very important to a couple of monkeys I know of.
*No data potata.  Youd have to ask him.  Hung Gar and Wing Chun dont have belts to my knowledge.*
Quote:
So he is a "senior" on this particular council, but a peer in the arts based on comparable time training and rankings?
*Yes.

*
Quote:
Richard Harder. You can call me Dick. Half my rep points do. 
I'm a Gemini. My favorite colors are black and blue, and I wear them often. I drive American, and my pickup has a gun rack. Last book I read was Ric Flairs bio, Last movie I watched isn't allowed here, and the last magazine I read had glossy pages and I've heard rumors it has articles but I ain't done found them yet. I love the smell of burning rattan and burnt gunpowder. I train various FMA, have a small private club in NY, and have been at classes involving quite a few names in the arts, including those refered to here. My favorite drink is cold, frothy and often, and my favorite food is anything you can put tobasco on, which so far is everything.

Now, lets see the other stick smokers ball up and ID.

*Okay guys and dolls, pony up!*

Dear SM Anderson,
*Hi Morgan, *

I wrote the following in a recent post:

_Regarding the promotion to 9th degree and GM status by GM Ernesto Presas, I think that there aren't a lot of questions there because there isn't a student-teacher relationship between GM E. Presas and GM Hartman. 
_
I believe that my statement meets your "test" as mentioned above.
Personally I don't have an opinion on that matter. 

*Is cool.
*
With regard to the WMAA Advisory Board promotions, I fully understand the questions raised, particularly since, as best as I can tell, none of the people on the board were ranked above Datu Hartman at the time of either promotion. Hence the issue of whether or not they were his students is really a moot point. Any further discussion of that issue will have to proceed with my further participation. 

Morgan

Quote:
Ranked above him in what way? In Dan's case, none of those he tested in front of were higher ranked in MA80 than him, and one at least was his peer, not his senior. 

For a promotion to be valid, wouldn't there have to be a student-teacher relationship, where the promotee was in the student role?

*Hey Dick,*
*It was a test to be inducted onto the Grand Masters council.  The first statement out of  the council is We dont promote anyone to Grand Master.  It is also right up there on the website.  As to where the promotee (far better than "testee" :ultracool) was in the student role, it was more the promotee was in the junior role.*

*Hey Bob,*
*Havent heard from you for a long time.*
Quote:
*Regarding Dan's promotion:*
Dan, I disagree with the idea of these "Soke" boards. Sorry, bit of a purist at heart here, and they ain't real "sokes" any more than I'm a large busted Swedish woman named Inga. But, they are better at evaluating someone's martial skill than I, by a long shot. So, while I disagree with the title usage, if they say you're the goods, then hey, congrats and pats on the back and all that good stuff. Personally, I don't think you, or anyone needs the paper as your real rank shows on the floor, and in the other works you do spreading the arts to new generations of students. Dan puts out a bunch of books and videos and is out there like him or not. Most of his detractors hide behind keyboards and won't show up and get on the floor with him so I consider their comments worthless.

*Thanks for the props, Bob.  Agreements and disagreements are in the minds of the beholders and I have no problem with anyones disagreement.  Is cool.


*

Quote:
A very good set of questions. As the founder of MA-80, does SM Anderson need anyone to promote him? Could he not unilaterally claim the GMship as the founder of the sub-system or spinoff of the Original Modern Arnis system? I'm not sure as to the actual validity of such a claim, however. Other opinions would be helpful.

Morgan
*Morgan,*

*"Need?"  Wild Bill (on another forum) used to use that word all the time.  I suppose I could just proclaim myself the 8th wonder of the worldhmmmI like that.  I, too, am a bit old-fashioned in that rather than proclaiming myself a martial arts mastermind (I like that, too.  I think Im onto something.) I would rather have the acknowledgement from seniors.  Being inducted onto the Grand Masters Council is that kind of acknowledgement.  So, I suppose the $64,000 question (that no one is asking so Ill ask it myself and beat you all to it) is do I put GM in front of my name when I now sign things, put out products, and the like.  Possiblyprobablymost likely although I havent yet.  My students have asked me that question and the answer is to keep calling me Professor.  Keep tuned to this station for film at 11:00.*

Quote:
From reading some posts here, it seems that the concerns or questions are...why would you want to promote yourself? Why would you want to take a title if you didn't earn it? Why would you test for rank IFO a group that may not have people on the board that train in the art you're testing for? 

So, sure, someone could promote themselves, test in front of a soke board or anything else...but, as I said in another post...its that person that has to live with it. Someone could walk around with the title Ultimate Supreme GM of the World...I don't care. That does not impress me. I've listed what I look for in other posts, so I'm not going to post it again here. 

*Hi Mike,*

*Succinctly stated.  This whole event and its ramifications is something I will live with, as I have with my other decisions in life.  Ultimate Supreme GM of the World  Damn!  That I like!*

*To All,*

*I love the discussion and as you can see, I am not taking myself so seriously regarding this that offense is taken.  As Mike has said, it is the person who makes the decision, lives with not only the decision but with the ramifications of it and in the end, himself.  I am doing fine with it and Im glad to get some excitement going on this forum.  Its been a little stale, lately.  All for now.*

*Yours,*
*Dan Anderson*


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

Just a thought on the being promoted by your students thing.  Aren't most of the past Grandmasters, Tuhons, etc.. in those roles because of their *students* learning from them and not because someone gave them a fancy paper?  That and the facts that their peers recognized them as bad *** fighters?  Seems to me that peers and students can do that kind of thing.  Personally I've trained with a few Masters and Grandmasters of various arts in my time.  Most of them have deserved the title and I can think of at least 2 that don't.  I don't tell others not to train with them, but most people that do find out real quick that they're not the real deal.


----------



## Rich Parsons

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Just a thought on the being promoted by your students thing.  Aren't most of the past Grandmasters, Tuhons, etc.. in those roles because of their *students* learning from them and not because someone gave them a fancy paper?  That and the facts that their peers recognized them as bad *** fighters?  Seems to me that peers and students can do that kind of thing.  Personally I've trained with a few Masters and Grandmasters of various arts in my time.  Most of them have deserved the title and I can think of at least 2 that don't.  I don't tell others not to train with them, but most people that do find out real quick that they're not the real deal.




So, let us say some fighters recognize someone as having better skill in fighting or in teaching and they cal him a Master, and yet this person who some have called master recognizes someone else as having a better skill set them them and they call them a grandmaster. To me here it is the students promoting the instructors.

If one has to have a Grandmaster to promote the next grandmaster then the whole journey would be linear and there would be very few at all if any, given those that dies before naming someone. 

No system is perfect. All systems can be abused.


----------



## Perpetual White Belt

Rich Parsons said:


> So, let us say some fighters recognize someone as having better skill in fighting or in teaching and they cal him a Master, and yet this person who some have called master recognizes someone else as having a better skill set them them and they call them a grandmaster. To me here it is the students promoting the instructors.
> 
> If one has to have a Grandmaster to promote the next grandmaster then the whole journey would be linear and there would be very few at all if any, given those that dies before naming someone.
> 
> No system is perfect. All systems can be abused.


 
Yep, I think that was pretty much my point when I started typing.  I kinda' went off on a tangent.  Good thing Rich is around to say what I ment to say in a bit clearer terminology.  THANKS!  :highfive:


----------



## Dan Anderson

Hi All,

This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated.  I am reprinting it here without his permission.

_And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go.  It follows 
the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have 
the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill, 
dedication...whatever to be on par with them.

Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not 
'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there 
are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to 
mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are 
nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise 
game plan.  Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business 
practices should be pure is thin morality.

The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't 
just a council, it is a community of individuals.  So, when you attack 
the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question 
EVERY member of that council.  That isn't very fair, ethical, or 
respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other 
parts of the martial arts world as well._

Damn.  Wish I had said that.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## Archangel M

Alright. Ive been lurking on this thread because its pretty long and pretty heated, making for some interesting reading. To add my 2 cents, I think many people (myself included), are unclear as to what "Grandmaster" means. Wikipedia has this page regarding Grandmasters. How does it fare regarding general consensus? 

What is a Grandmaster?
What does the title endow the holder with?


----------



## The Game

Dan Anderson said:


> Hi All,
> 
> This was posted by Paul Martin over on a different forum which is, by far, more eloquent than what I have said regarding the World Head Of Family Sokeship Council than anything I have stated.  I am reprinting it here without his permission.
> 
> _And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go.  It follows
> the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
> the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
> dedication...whatever to be on par with them.
> 
> Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
> 'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
> are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
> mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
> nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
> game plan.  Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
> practices should be pure is thin morality.
> 
> The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
> just a council, it is a community of individuals.  So, when you attack
> the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
> EVERY member of that council.  That isn't very fair, ethical, or
> respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
> parts of the martial arts world as well._
> 
> Damn.  Wish I had said that.
> 
> Yours,
> Dan Anderson


Paul Martin. Isn't he one of the people who were banned from here a while back for excessive **** stirring? *Checks Notes* Yup. Has an obsessive dislike of Hartman? *checks Notes* Yup. Wanted to beat up an accident victim? *checks notes* Yup.

Tells me all I need to know about Mr. Martin's integrity, ethics, and all that jazz.

Now, lets decode his little "morality play".



> Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
> 'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point when there
> are so many martial arts schools out there that use the term 'Karate' to
> mean arts like FMA's or offering 'little dragon' classes which are
> nothing more than a shake and bake binder class from a McDojo franchise
> game plan. Picking and choosing what part of martial arts business
> practices should be pure is thin morality.


For those who don't know, Hartman is a member of NAPMA (says so on his website.)
NAPMA has materials referring to a Little Dragons program, which Hartman offers. (says so on his website)
That's the little crack about "McDojo franchise game plan"
He (Hartman) also has a sign that says "Karate" over his school. (See picture of school on his website).
That's the Karate crack.

So that middle paragraph is typical "Barberite" crap, where it's usually little more than "lets be sneaky and take shots at the only successful FMA school in WNY" since we can't hack it ourselves and we're jealous buttholes.

As to the comments here:


> The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
> just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
> the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
> EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
> respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
> parts of the martial arts world as well.



They sure do take a lot of shots at people on this site, it's staff, it's owner, and so on. But of course, that whole fairness clause doesn't apply here.

Sorry Dan, but those guys are fricken losers, and weree banned from here for very good reasons. Nice to see them still being what they are all this time later.

Of course, more people will read that hre in a ay than read it there in a year. They've got what, 66 readers, most of which never post, and a dozen of which are just the same 4 losers posting to themselves?

Their opinions on martial arts matters aren't worth recycled cat litter.

I still like you though.


----------



## arnisador

Dan Anderson said:


> This was posted by Paul Martin
> [...]
> _I think this is probably the most credible way to go.  It follows
> the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
> the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
> dedication...whatever to be on par with them.
> _



Speaking as a member of the academic world with extensive experience in this matter...we are very careful _not _to judge people in disciplines other than our own, even if it's a similar "general" discipline. Professionals in chemistry don't second guess chemical engineers, for example. Your advisor and your dept. make the recommendation. It's not a matter of being "on par" as many uneducated people are very intelligent. It's a matter (for a doctorate) of definitely advancing the knowledge of your field. Only those in your very specific field can judge that.


----------



## Dan Anderson

Archangel M said:


> Alright. Ive been lurking on this thread because its pretty long and pretty heated, making for some interesting reading. To add my 2 cents, I think many people (myself included), are unclear as to what "Grandmaster" means. Wikipedia has this page regarding Grandmasters. How does it fare regarding general consensus?
> 
> What is a Grandmaster?
> What does the title endow the holder with?


VERY good question so I'll chime in first.

_To me,_ Grand Master has to do with a head of a system or a title of someone who is. In a number of schools/styles it is also associated with 8th dan and up. The big mistake is to think it is an be-all end-all. It is a harmonic of lower ranks. Just as a 10th dan still needs to train to keep up his/her skills, the same with a Grand Master.

It is also an _attitude_. Let me explain and I hope this clears up a couple of things as far as any question regarding myself (some things were perceived as unclear from a phone call I received). After MA-80 being recognized in the Philippines in 2006 as a valid branch of the mother art, Modern Arnis _and_ receiving the "Honor Of Gat Andres Bonafacio" award from the Philippine Classical Arnis Council recognizing me as "Founder, MA-80 System," I have had the attitude of a Grand Master. This is a personal thing. I haven't called myself one, just assumed the attitude and beingness of one. When I tested for induction onto the Grand Masters Council two weeks ago, I walked onto the floor with the attitude and bearing of one. Being admitted onto the council was frosting on the cake. 

Was I promoted to GM? No. The council doesn't promote someone to Grand Master. They feel you are _already_ a Grand Master when you test for induction onto the council. Did I self promote? Not in the way of formal declaration and announcement. Have I considered myself one? For the last couple years, yes. Do I consider myself one now? As regards MA-80 and American Freestyle Karate (established 1977), yes.

What does this mean in the long run? It means I keep doing what I have been doing for the last 41, nearly 42 years - keep researching the arts, keep training in the arts and keep the faith. No matter the title or rank or lack thereof, that's all one can do.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - What does the title endow the holder with? Sometimes a target. Oh well... :cheers:


----------



## Dan Anderson

arnisador said:


> Speaking as a member of the academic world with extensive experience in this matter...we are very careful _not _to judge people in disciplines other than our own, even if it's a similar "general" discipline. Professionals in chemistry don't second guess chemical engineers, for example. Your advisor and your dept. make the recommendation. It's not a matter of being "on par" as many uneducated people are very intelligent. It's a matter (for a doctorate) of definitely advancing the knowledge of your field. Only those in your very specific field can judge that.


 
Only one problem here, Jeff.  You are comparing professionals in sciences.  Your comments I can agree with regarding sciences but when you get into the arts, whether physical or otherwise, then it can be a judgement call.  From your own experience you can tell whether someone has trained or not.  You have been around the block a few times yourself.  martial arts is like that.  One judging motion, timing, distancing, theories and principles behind what one is doing.  Martial arts are similar in those aspects and one can tell if someone else is or is not full of it.

Yours,
Dan


----------



## Dan Anderson

Dick,

The key point here I wanted to make is that to disfavor a group based on a name is basically unfair. The middle section which is a blast against whoever (whether Tim or not) ISN'T the point I wanted to make and _it is my mistake _for including that section. There are many dojos which have programs that are excellent and many have the same titled programs which are not so good and to lump them all together without inspection is unfair. So, I'll re-post:


> And, argue semantics until the cows come home about terms like "Soke" but I think this is probably the most credible way to go. It follows the academic model that your 'seniors' in the general discipline have
> the ability to recognize the equivalent level of research, skill,
> dedication...whatever to be on par with them.
> 
> Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
> 'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point...
> 
> The other point about the Sokeship council criticism is that it isn't
> just a council, it is a community of individuals. So, when you attack
> the integrity of a Sokeship council you are really calling into question
> EVERY member of that council. That isn't very fair, ethical, or
> respectful to these individuals - some of whom play key roles in other
> parts of the martial arts world as well.


 
This is the point I wanted to make.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador

I agree that martial arts are different; we can tell who is effective and who is not, and who has truly internalized the material and who has not. I was responding only to the comparison to the academic world, which I find lacking (even, though I agree somewhat less so, in the humanities).


----------



## The Game

> Saying that the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame Sokeship council is not
> 'legit' because of the use of one word (SOKE) is a moot point...



I don't think anyone here is saying that they aren't legit because of the intentional misuse of the term. But I do think it's a fair concern.  There are a hundred different halls and councils and boards out there, so I guess it's a matter of whatever paper you feel the need for, and all that.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Arni, you arguing over the MD vs DDS? I thought they were all medical doctors myself.  My bone popper has more time in med school than my primary. Just different licencing, I thunk.


----------



## The Game

Bob Hubbard said:


> I missed the above comment earlier.
> A clarification here, as this references me, abet rather obscurely, and I prefer to have things clear and fair where possible. Paul and I were going to have a friendly exchange, a little training, a little sparring, what have you. Due to a personal medical matter and the advice of my doctors and lawyers I had to withdraw. It's not fair to Paul to paint him as a bully, when IMHO that wasn't the intent of what he and I had discussed and he is not here to defend himself against such allegations. I'd appreciate it if such comments are avoided in the future.


 
Ok, fine. I'm sorry for the honest misunderstanding on my part.
The rest of my opinion of that group however stands.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman

First of all I think we need to split the thread. 

  LL you wrote:
Shocked is a good word to use here Tim. So were a lot of people. What I quoted above are your words, the only words you've mentioned here concerning Kombatan. You now, that art you're now a Grandmaster in.
In 7 years, you've mentioned Ernesto a dozen times, and Kombatan a mere 3! times. Yet you come back from a vacation sporting a suntan, a shiny new title and a nice 9th degree promotion. Not bad for an art you don't do, don't teach, and a decade ago weren't even aware of. Having your students promote you twice was pretty bad, but at least that was in an art you had some legit rank in. Some might want to know how the actual Kombatan people who have busted their asses to train and earn rank feel about an outsider popping in and buying himself some paperwork. 
Is all this really the mark of a "War Leader"?
I'll most likely get my teeth handed to me over this but **** it. You've been coddled by your whipping boy here too long, and gotten rid of all your critics. Someone has to stand up and bare buttocks at the ******** for a change.

  If you're basing things on how many times I've mentioned GGM Ernesto and Kombatan on the net, then you don't know what you're talking about. Let me lay this out for you. 
  1999: 
  GGM Ernesto was hospitalized in the PI and was unsure if he was going to survive. The Kombatan people reached out to me to see if I could get Prof Remy to visit him in case his condition was fatal. I called Remy in the PI and he reached out to his sick brother. Fortunately Ernesto's condition was not fatal. 
  2000:
  I met GGM Ernesto for the first time in Maine. My Kombatan training began. Later that year I traveled to Lake  Tahoe to attend another Kombatan seminar featuring GGM Ernesto and met Rick Manglinong as well.    
  2001:
  I went to Reno and trained with GMM Ernesto again. At this event I formalized having Rick Manglinong teach at my 2002 camp.

  2002:
  I had Rick M. teach at the first WMAA Camp. Since then he has only missed one of the Buffalo camps and has taught at other events with me.

  I have had a lot of exposure to Kombatan in the last nine years. Dont you think I trained during this time? I dont log my training sessions on line for everyones approval. Im surprised that you didnt question my promotion to Master Instructor in Bando Stick Fighting. Using your logic I only mentioned Gyi or his art a few times on the net, so I must not have trained it.

  You quoted me here:

10-13-2001
 Ernesto has his own art Kombatan. It is not the same program."
  Since then I have a greater understanding of the art. What I didnt realize was that GGM Ernesto was teaching what was unique to Kombatan, not what is in common. After years of training and having access to the rank curriculum I realized that there is a lot in common, which only makes sense seeing that Prof Remy taught his two younger brothers?

When GGM Ernesto promoted me part of it was based on knowing the program that had much in common with his own as well as what I have done in and for his older brother's art.


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## Dan Anderson

MJS said:


> And BTW, while I may not have trained much with Prof. Presas, my teacher Brian Zawilinski has. He's taught me quite a bit, and I thank God that I'm fortunate to have someone like him, practically in my backyard.
> 
> Mike


Brian is a good egg!

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Brian Johns

Wow, there's been a fair amount of fire breathing, huffing and puffing here and moralizing about whether you should do this or do that. For me personally, I could care less. I worry alot more about my own personal development in the arts and whether I'm doing my best to plumb the depths of Modern Arnis and passing it along to my students. If I end up excessively worrying about whether another person deserves this or that title or rank, then I'm being distracted from own personal martial arts journey. So what Datu Tim Hartman and SM Dan Anderson did or did not do right does not matter to me. They are pursuing their own martial journey and finding their own way in this world. So it seems to me to be pretty ridiculous and a waste of energy to get all worked up about a matter beyond your control.

Take care,
Brian Johns


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## bobquinn

Hear, Hear Mr.Johns.
I second that motion! I move to adjourn, any second to the motion to adjourn?

BQ


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## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> Arni, you arguing over the MD vs DDS? I thought they were all medical doctors myself.



No, they're both physicians (along with podiatrists) when the term is used in its broadest sense, but only MDs and DOs are _medical doctors_ (and physicians in the usual sense). 



> My bone popper has more time in med school than my primary. Just different licencing, I thunk.



It's different licensing. Medical doctors, dentists, chiropractors, etc. have different licenses due to their different scopes of practice (and historical issues). If by "bone popper" you mean a chiropractor, it would be rare for one to have attended med. school (and they may have fewer years of education, as many don't complete the bachelors). They attend chiropractic school instead.


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## Bob Hubbard

*ADMIN NOTICE
This thread is intended to focus on Dan Anderson's MA80 system. 
We have copied several of the off-topic posts concerning the questions put to Datu hartman to their own topic, "Grandmaster/Datu Hartman Promotion Questions"
Please go there to discuss Datu Tim Hartman's promotions.

Please return the focus of this thread to Dan Anderson's MA80 system. 
Thank you.*


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## MJS

Just a quick note.  The Sokeboard discussion has been moved to this thread.  Any discussion on that should be kept there, so this thread can focus on MA-80.

Thanks,

Mike


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## The Game

To revive this, let me ask Dan a question or so.

How does MA80 differ from Modern Arnis?


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## Dan Anderson

The Game said:


> To revive this, let me ask Dan a question or so.
> 
> How does MA80 differ from Modern Arnis?


The base is Modern Arnis - always has been and always will be.

Several ways it differs are:
1.  There is far more emphasis on structure and alignment in what I teach than what I was taught.  This is a _huge_ difference in and of itself.
2.  A lot of the USA Modern Arnis these days is either middle or close range.  MA-80 covers long range as well.
3.  The Espada y daga is expanded from what Prof. Presas taught.
4.  Much more broad ranged rather than emphasizing one or two aspects (example: tapi-tapi is a portion, not a main emphasis of what I teach).
5.  Check hand is much more of a factor than what Prof. Presas stressed.
6.  Minor point but several actions of the empty hand anyos have been subtly shifted to align with original Okinawan karate actions or with natural structure. 

The most important difference is that it is a Filipino/American art, not just a Filipino art.  It has no heirarchal ties to the Philippines.  Those are just a few.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## arnisador

Dan Anderson said:


> 2.  A lot of the USA Modern Arnis these days is either middle or close range.  MA-80 covers long range as well.
> 3.  The Espada y daga is expanded from what Prof. Presas taught.



I'd agree that both of these are usually not covered as much as they should be--esp. the long range. In the early 80s it seemed like we did more largo stuff, and that it then became under-emphasized.



> 5.  Check hand is much more of a factor than what Prof. Presas stressed.



I always felt the use of the live hand was a big thing--grabbing the stick, checking (tulok/tusok), disarming...


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## Bob Hubbard

How much, if any, of your karate / competition experience is blended in Dan?


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## Guro Harold

When I attended a MARPPIO seminar, there were alot of largo combinations shown.

Remy Jr showed me an old school stick grap-release drill off of the left and right sides


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## Brian R. VanCise

Palusut said:


> When I attended a MARPPIO seminar, there were alot of largo combinations shown.
> 
> Remy Jr showed me an old school stick grap-release drill off of the left and right sides


 
That is old school and more what was shown in the seventies and eighties.


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## Brian R. VanCise

arnisador said:


> I'd agree that both of these are usually not covered as much as they should be--esp. the long range. In the early 80s it seemed like we did more largo stuff, and that it then became under-emphasized.
> 
> 
> 
> I always felt the use of the live hand was a big thing--grabbing the stick, checking (tulok/tusok), disarming...


 
Absolutely though Modern Arnis progressed or changed as the Professors emphasis changed.


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> How much, if any, of your karate / competition experience is blended in Dan?


 
Lots.  Especially in reading how my opponent moves, how to take advantage of positioning, distancing and timing.  It plays the most in observational and analytical skills.  As to the physical kick/punch, a kick is a kick and a punch is a punch.  I don't do tournament moves in my arnis, if that is what you're asking.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Bob Hubbard

Honestly, I've no idea what I'm asking..but it's all good. 
But I'd foggily recalled something about it being a part of the system, and knowing your reputation as the sparring god, figured some of it would be worked in, in an "effectiveness" way...if that makes sense?


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## Guro Harold

Brian R. VanCise said:


> That is old school and more what was shown in the seventies and eighties.


Yes Brian,

In other words, the close game and emphasis on tapi-tapi trapping was an emphasis in the U.S. in the later years.


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## Dan Anderson

Bob Hubbard said:


> Honestly, I've no idea what I'm asking..but it's all good.
> But I'd foggily recalled something about it being a part of the system, and knowing your reputation as the sparring god, figured some of it would be worked in, in an "effectiveness" way...if that makes sense?


Bob,

Absolutely. One of the things I was known for in my karate days was being able to read my opponent within seconds. Even now when I do a seminar on Positional Set Up (Hey! The name of a DVD I have for sale on my website! Fancy that!), I will predict what my opponent will do right after we bow in, tell someone off to the side, spar with that person and then ask the person I told what pecent I was right. I usually rate into the low 90% range. I apply the same analytical skills to the investigation and instruction of my arnis.

A HUGE factor (again from my karate background) is how much I apply _structure_, _alignment_ and _'structure in transition'_ to my arnis to make it more effective. These are things RP didn't stress all that much, or at least in any scientific manner. 

The funny thing is that when you've done martial arts as long as I have and studied the principles of many, many different systems and have cross-trained in others, the influence of one to the next tends to blur. My karate and arnis have cross-influenced the other to a massive degree.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## buguhan

Hi Dan,

maybe it could help us all a little if you give us an overview over the MA80 curriculum: what is trained from white to brown belt/black belt!

Looking at the curriculi of WMAA, IMAF (both), MARPPIO and DAV you can see a lot of differences (in name, in action and other things)! 


Thanks from Germany

buguhan


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## Dan Anderson

I can perhaps put a pdf file of the requirements, I suppose.  Since it is only a "shopping list" I'm not sure how it would help to see the difference between the groups and even more important, the differences and similarities in emphasis points.  If you wish, let me know.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## buguhan

Hi Dan,

even a "shopping list" could be helpful! 
It is hard to understand what others are doing in training if you only read their curriculum instead of seeing and doing it yourself, but shortly I started reading the different curriculi of the other Moder Arnis groups and when I have the time and money I'll buy some of their DVDs to see it be myself, and if have more time and money I'll travell to the US to train with them! One of your DVD  I already bought on the last DAV Summer Camp, and it is worth the money!

Greetings

buguhan


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## Dan Anderson

Okay.  I'm heading to Florida tomorrow and then to Georgia for about a week.  I'll put one up when I return.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## The Game

From what I've read and heard, an organized curiculum was sorely lacking in Modern Arnis. It would be interesting to compare what Dan's done and how he's organized things with the IMAFs and WMAA's systems. Provided of course the language is similar.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Modern Arnis 80 is laid out in many ways via Dan's books and dvds.  Though you would have to look through everything to get a complete picture.


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## DragonMind

The ranking curriculum for white to 1st Dan (Lakan Isa) is laid out in the Basics book. The material is indeed spread out over several books, as would be expected for such a complex subject.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Hey Barry,

Glad to see you over here.


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## hapkenkido

Berry it was fun training with you at the atlanta camp


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## DragonMind

Thanks guys. Working on a Ph.D. hasn't left me much time for anything else the past year.

Chip,

I ended up with 15 DVDs of raw footage. Needless to say, that is going to take some time to edit. You want the raw now or edited later? PM me.


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## Brian R. VanCise

DragonMind said:


> Thanks guys. Working on a Ph.D. hasn't left me much time for anything else the past year.


 
Hey congratulations Barry, keep on going as it will be worth it in the end!


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## Dan Anderson

DragonMind said:


> I ended up with 15 DVDs of raw footage.


Looking forward to seeing it.  Barry got the whole camp on film.  Some good stuff in there.

Dan


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## Dan Anderson

buguhan said:


> Hi Dan,
> 
> maybe it could help us all a little if you give us an overview over the MA80 curriculum: what is trained from white to brown belt/black belt!
> 
> Looking at the curriculi of WMAA, IMAF (both), MARPPIO and DAV you can see a lot of differences (in name, in action and other things)!
> 
> 
> Thanks from Germany
> 
> buguhan


Just emailed you my curriculum.  Enjoy.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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