# SL4 Clips



## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

Some cool SL4 clips on youtube! Enjoy! 

Alternating Maces

[yt]tDG5WqZiYZw[/yt]

Sword Of Doom

[yt]y5WK7aJcItQ&feature=related[/yt]

Sword and Hammer
[yt]42NoMRlEBRY&feature=related[/yt]


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## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2008)

Nice clips, can I ask why do the do hitting movements after the attack is done. Not trying to be a smartass just do not understand.


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

And one more!! 

[yt]UpUWKU7IB30&eurl[/yt]


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Nice clips, can I ask why do the do hitting movements after the attack is done. Not trying to be a smartass just do not understand.


 
Hopefully Doc will chime in for this question, as he can answer better than I. 

Mike


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## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2008)

Mike it says sorry no longer available.


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## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hopefully Doc will chime in for this question, as he can answer better than I.
> 
> Mike


 
Ok was just wondering


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## MJS (Mar 20, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Mike it says sorry no longer available.


 
Hmm...not sure what happened.  It played when I went to the youtube site.  I put the link in again, and it seems to be working now.


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## terryl965 (Mar 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hmm...not sure what happened. It played when I went to the youtube site. I put the link in again, and it seems to be working now.


 
Yes it is Thanks


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## thetruth (Mar 20, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hopefully Doc will chime in for this question, as he can answer better than I.
> 
> Mike



Hope so.  I have no idea what the go is there.  Also why do the strike the air before engaging the opponent too?

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## thetruth (Mar 20, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Hope so.  I have no idea what the go is there.  Also why do the strike the air before engaging the opponent too?
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:



Actually they strike the person, then they strike the air followed by the person and then some more air.  

Cheers
Sam:asian:


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2008)

can you name these techniques for us non AK people, please.

Marlon


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2008)

MJS said:


> Hopefully Doc will chime in for this question, as he can answer better than I.
> 
> Mike


 

while this is no doubt true,could you share your understanding?  Are these realignment movements, and / or broken rhythm?  or something completely different.  I would assume the big stompping movement is a BAM and not a stomp...?But all i know of sl4 is from this forum ..so i have read some   but know very little of sl4

respectfully,
Marlon


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## ackks10 (Mar 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> can you name these techniques for us non AK people, please.
> 
> Marlon



the 2nd looks like a version of" Delayed sword"  with the kick and the hand sword at the end,  (i may be wrong) :duh: it is the 1st yellow belt tech in parkers kenpo,the thing that is not the same is  (i believe) is that in DS you do not cross out that far, (people have been doing all the techs different )
it is what it is.:wink:


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> can you name these techniques for us non AK people, please.
> 
> Marlon


 
Done.  Sorry about that. 



marlon said:


> while this is no doubt true,could you share your understanding? Are these realignment movements, and / or broken rhythm? or something completely different. I would assume the big stompping movement is a BAM and not a stomp...?But all i know of sl4 is from this forum ..so i have read some but know very little of sl4
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
In all honesty, Doc, Doc Dave or Bode, would be much more qualified than I to comment on SL4.  While we share the same art, Parker Kenpo, Docs version, SL4 is different than how I execute the techniques.  I could probably take a guess as to what the extra moves are, but I don't want to risk the chance that I'll say something in error.

Calling Doc, Dave or Bode.  Looking for some input on these techniques.


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2008)

ackks10 said:


> the 2nd looks like a version of" Delayed sword" with the kick and the hand sword at the end, (i may be wrong) :duh: it is the 1st yellow belt tech in parkers kenpo,the thing that is not the same is (i believe) is that in DS you do not cross out that far, (people have been doing all the techs different )
> it is what it is.:wink:


 
Hey George!!  Whats up!!

Yes, it is similar to DS without the lapel grab.  Hmm..and who said it couldnt be done off a punch.


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## ackks10 (Mar 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> can you name these techniques for us non AK people, please.
> 
> Marlon




and the 3rd is something called OPPONENTS AT SIDES  it is done with 1,or 2 opponents. but someone will say that ,,thats not what it is:erg:


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## newGuy12 (Mar 21, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Nice clips, can I ask why do the do hitting movements after the attack is done. Not trying to be a smartass just do not understand.



I think that is the "overkill / overskill" ways of Kenpo -- they do more than needed "just in case".

Now to watch the videos!


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## ackks10 (Mar 21, 2008)

Hay Mike  good to hear from you, if you get a chance give me or i will call you have to tell you something,,:uhyeah:


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 21, 2008)

Posted by Dr. Crouch (Kembudo Kai Kenpoka on MT) on AmericanKenpoForum about these same clips:
"Doc always gets mad at me when I oversimplify his stuff, but I'm going to risk the earful for the purposes of brevity and clarity. Where you start at -- in terms of suppositions and objectives -- determines next step, and so on. Some fundamental assumptions of SL4 are based in law-enforcement, or certainly in evading legal consequences of excessive force. So, where I might advocate sticking a finger in the eye of a guy who's bum-rushing you, Doc doesn't. Rather, he works techs that optimize your own alignment, while ****ing with the bad guys. In a misaligned state, shots go deeper, take a bigger toll out of the bad guy, and can do a better job of dropping him without permanently maiming him...and all of the legal ramifications that come with it.

SL4 is big on maximizing neromechanical and anatomical alignment. Lots of bopping yourself on muscle groups to facilitate them, or to send asundry signals to the brain to help shore things up. Also big is what he calls AGM or anti-grapple mechanisms. Having been a student of the Gracies for several years, he and I still go back and forth as to the efficacy of them against a trained wrassler, but I've used them in crowd control and one-on-one situations quite effectively. In oversimplified terms, in between strtiking sequences at key points in the techniques, there are points where a guy could more logically collect himself for a second rush at you than at other times in the tech. So we put **** out there for him to run into. I think of it as sticking a Pike out there to safeguard distance while you make adjustments...if he chooses to rush you at that moment, he's gonna run throat first into something solid and unpleasant. If he doesn't rush you, you look like your slapping yourself for no apparent reason. But like I said; that's over simplification.

In contact resistance training, we put on chest shields and all that crap, and go charging after each other balls out. The shileds are for the uke's protection, cuz that **** hurts after only 1 or 2 shots. In the SL4 "cover out", several are inserted for practices sake. Looking at them in video, we look like were just slapping ourselves silly. But each movement is part of an AGM that's inserted to the upper case, rather than just holding up "kenpo hands" in pretty checks. Kinda robotic to look at, but they work when some puke is rushing you.

Somewhere online, there's a clip of Doc doing Alternating Maces in a restaurant. Just before the last blow, he lays what looks like a palm-up ridge hand against the ukes windpipe and collarbone, checking depth and guaging distance for the final blow. That move is one of the moves in the end of the above clips, during the cover out. Another similar move is to throw a particular version of a palm heel, arm internally rotated and fingers pointing medially rather than up. That's another quickie for peple to crash into. You can stack them one after another to slow down an oncoming bum rush, and start backing the guys mass up. Finally, the end point that looks like "left over right meditate position" to the side of a neutral bow is a braced position that creates a nice bumper for the guy to crash into. Again in isolation in contact resistance training, a 5-10% translation of weight to the front leg combined with a slight impulse from both hands into that hand formation not only stops you hard, but hurts right through your chest...feels like walking walking into somebody rushing you with a 4x4.

On video, and even in person, SL4 techs can look like some goofy ****. But you really should get on the mat with the man and try it out before passing judgement. Not everyone walks away impressed; your results may vary. But he made a convert outta me. And I'm a dick when it comes to these things. Like I said; I still argue with him (light-heartedly) about the efficacy of AGM's against a trained BJJ-er of blue-or-better level. But to be honest, I haven't put in a mouthpiece and put it to the test. Two times I decided he was preaching ********. One time challenging it, I got knocked ****-faced loopy by being stopped hard in my tracks on a shoot, then hit on top of the shoulder blade while I was still misaligned & staggering from hitting a truck with a tricycle (and I had more than 30 pounds on the other guy). The second time, I jacked my shoulder up so bad, it'll never be the same again. I'm still on the DL from my car wreck, and not all that interested in finding out what gets hurt next time I call BS on something of his, balls out. In my mind, I'm still sure I could get around the AGM's his guys use, and pull them to the ground...into my territory, where I could mount and own them. I also would not be the least bit surprised if trying to do so left me KTFO'd, or with another permanent musculoskeletal injury. So I'll leave it to the next generation of skeptics to show up on his doorstep with a bag full of doubts. I've got enough creaks and groans for one lifetime, thanks.

D. "
Original post http://americankenpoforum.com/forums/t/2434.aspx

Also - Sword of Doom is a tech vs. a right punch with similar body mechanics to Delayed Sword. Since DS is against a right hand lapel grab, SoD teaches how to use a similar set of mechanics (not identical) for a similar but different method of attack. I might be wrong here and I'm sure Doc, Bode, Mr. King, or Dr. Crouch will correct me - but I believe from what I've read is the similarities are also the differences and starts one on the process of identifying differences in attacks and helps build the motor impulses to respond to a similar circumstance with different avenues of responses.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 21, 2008)

Here's the Alternating Maces clip Dr. Crouch referenced in his post:
http://www.youtube.com/v/xAa7I0r2bOg&hl=en

Somebody show me how to embed them


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2008)

Thanks for posting that.  As always, its a very indepth quality post from Dave!


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## ackks10 (Mar 21, 2008)

Hey Steve I'm looking for someone who can type , and guess what?? you fit the bill,  wow thats alot of typing ,joking with you LOL, btw i did get your pm when you can,,call me:wavey:


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## MJS (Mar 21, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Here's the Alternating Maces clip Dr. Crouch referenced in his post:
> http://www.youtube.com/v/xAa7I0r2bOg&hl=en
> 
> Somebody show me how to embed them


 
Embedding 101: 

When you go to youtube, and are viewing the clip, you should see something like this:




 
Now take everything after the = sign and put it between [yt] and [/yt]

So it'll go something like this
[yt]tDG5WqZiYZw[/yt]

Just like you quote parts of posts here, except you're using yt instead of quote.  

Did all that make sense? LOL!


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 21, 2008)

[yt]8r5RIC2Zcx8[/yt]

Another Sword of Doom clip.


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## IWishToLearn (Mar 21, 2008)

[yt]NaT1uAMg7yg[/yt]
And a Delayed Sword.


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## marlon (Mar 21, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> Posted by Dr. Crouch (Kembudo Kai Kenpoka on MT) on AmericanKenpoForum about these same clips:
> "Doc always gets mad at me when I oversimplify his stuff, but I'm going to risk the earful for the purposes of brevity and clarity. Where you start at -- in terms of suppositions and objectives -- determines next step, and so on. Some fundamental assumptions of SL4 are based in law-enforcement, or certainly in evading legal consequences of excessive force. So, where I might advocate sticking a finger in the eye of a guy who's bum-rushing you, Doc doesn't. Rather, he works techs that optimize your own alignment, while ****ing with the bad guys. In a misaligned state, shots go deeper, take a bigger toll out of the bad guy, and can do a better job of dropping him without permanently maiming him...and all of the legal ramifications that come with it.
> 
> SL4 is big on maximizing neromechanical and anatomical alignment. Lots of bopping yourself on muscle groups to facilitate them, or to send asundry signals to the brain to help shore things up. Also big is what he calls AGM or anti-grapple mechanisms. Having been a student of the Gracies for several years, he and I still go back and forth as to the efficacy of them against a trained wrassler, but I've used them in crowd control and one-on-one situations quite effectively. In oversimplified terms, in between strtiking sequences at key points in the techniques, there are points where a guy could more logically collect himself for a second rush at you than at other times in the tech. So we put **** out there for him to run into. I think of it as sticking a Pike out there to safeguard distance while you make adjustments...if he chooses to rush you at that moment, he's gonna run throat first into something solid and unpleasant. If he doesn't rush you, you look like your slapping yourself for no apparent reason. But like I said; that's over simplification.
> ...


 
many thanks
marlon


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## JamesB (Apr 2, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Nice clips, can I ask why do the do *hitting movements after the attack is done*. Not trying to be a smartass just do not understand.


 
Hi,
the clips in question demonstrate beginner-level SL-4 techniques. That's my instructor in the clips (Kevin Mills).. training under Chapel in LA. He asked me to post the clips up for his new site www.sl4europe.com

It looks like Doc and/or others haven't seen this thread yet, so I'll attempt to explain what I perceive to be happening in these clips. Note that I don't know what the focus of the lesson was in these clips, so I will explain with my own (limited) understanding.

The 'hitting after the attack' has three components as I understand: A one-legged stance with an 'upward forward index' that looks kind of like a waiter holding his hand under a tray. The spare hand BAMs the opposite shoulder providing structure to the posture. The second component is a twist stance with an outward horizontal palm-heel, again with a shoulder BAM. The last stance is a neutral-bow with a braced-index position. And of course fluid and controlled transition between each stage.

Using this transition has several purposes. The first is to teach a more specific 'cover out' to all belt-levels. In comparion, the standard kenpo cover-out usually comprises a front cross-over with the legs, but shows no detail using the upper body - this is what most people have been taught and I see this every place I go so I assume it to be pretty standard.

The SL-4 cover-out, in contrast, teaches specific uses of the arms and hands in conjunction with the front cross-over. The postures of the arms as the feet cross over add stablity to the one-legged, twist and neutral-bow stances as they transition between each other. It's really effective, with the whole body (of the defender) becoming much stronger/stable because of the placement of the arms. It's easily provable that the postures work, if you (all) are interested I could attempt to describe it better but would require the assistance of Doc/Bode. Anyway that's reason #1 for you.

The second purpose of the hand movements is to provide attacking options even after the technique has been completed. Rather than transitioning away with a cross-over, we could quite easily continue the forward assault with the front-cross-over. The first strike could hit on the neck-line under the jaw or to the side of the cheek, causing muscle reassignment and a negative body posture. The second strike (palm-heel) strikes to the nerve cavity activated by the first strike. The braced index then provides the defensive posture if required.

And the whole sequence can be utilized if the attacker is chasing after you... it's a way to retreat and regain your structure whilst having someone grappling you.. so even in the one-legged stance the grappler (with his arms around your upper body) will be unable to compromise the structural integrity of the body. 

Hope that gives a better insight into what is happening here. Please note that I have only recently begun studying the SL4 101 material so I may be a little 'off' in some of my descriptions

cheers,


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## JamesB (Apr 2, 2008)

marlon said:


> while this is no doubt true,could you share your understanding? Are these realignment movements, and / or broken rhythm? or something completely different. I would assume the big stompping movement is a BAM and not a stomp...?But all i know of sl4 is from this forum ..so i have read some but know very little of sl4
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon


 
Hi,
you are correct in your thoughts - but the movements are designed not just to *realign *the body, but to *optimally align* it prior to striking, to ensure the strikes are as powerful and effective as the body will allow. Yes you could apply broken rhythm and different timing/breathing signatures but that's not the focus of the yellow-belt material being worked on in the clips.

The 'big stomping' movement is actually a PAM (Platform Aligning Mechnism) rather than a BAM (Body Aligning Mechanism). PAMs are performed by the legs and align the lower platform, whereas BAMs utilize the hands and align the upper platform. The PAM shown in the clip is not a heavy stomp, but rather a deliberate lifting and planting of the foot, emphasising the placement of the heel of the foot to provide structural integrity.

cheers,


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## JamesB (Apr 2, 2008)

thetruth said:


> Hope so. I have no idea what the go is there. Also why do the *strike the air *before engaging the opponent too?
> 
> Cheers
> Sam:asian:


 
If you study the clips closely you can see that the hands make contact with each other. Take the third clip (sword and hammer). The first move is to index the head and survive the initial assault (aggressive grab to the shoulder). This is accomplised by executing a distinctive rising forearm index (might have the terminology wrong there). It ends with the right fist parallel, and facing palm-down to the ground, with the forearm at shoulder height. In conjunction with this move the left hand BAMs the right shoulder providing structure to this posture. 

The left hand BAM also attacks the top of the attacker's hand in what looks like a pinning movement (so the BAM does two things here... at least ) . This affects (and breaks down) the grip strength in the attacker's arm and forces him into a negative body posture.

The left hand then continues it's circle and makes contact with the inside side of the closed right fist, and forms a palm heel... this whole posture is called a 'braced index'. The right hand is the 'index', and the left hand is the 'brace'. You can see this posture at the top of www.sl4europe.com ;-)

The braced-index has multiple uses: 

1. It provides structure to the upper body and is an 'anti grapple mechanism' (AGM). So if an attacker were to grapple with you whilst standing up, he would be severely restricted in his options.

2. It makes subsequent striking with the 'index' arm more powerful because of the structure that is gained by creating the posture in the first place. Kind of like a sophisticated way to cock your weapon prior to striking - it makes it more powerful. 

After the handsword (remember this is sword+hammer) the striking arm returns back to the braced index position as we wait for the attacker to stagger back and we reingage and strike his lower center-line with the hammer-fist.

Just a more sophisticated version of the familiar sword+hammer technique

cheers,


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## DavidCC (Apr 2, 2008)

JamesB said:


> If you study the clips closely you can see that the hands make contact with each other. Take the third clip (sword and hammer). The first move is to index the head and survive the initial assault (aggressive grab to the shoulder). This is accomplised by executing a distinctive rising forearm index (might have the terminology wrong there). It ends with the right fist parallel, and facing palm-down to the ground, with the forearm at shoulder height. In conjunction with this move the left hand BAMs the right shoulder providing structure to this posture.
> 
> The left hand BAM also attacks the top of the attacker's hand in what looks like a pinning movement (so the BAM does two things here... at least ) . This affects (and breaks down) the grip strength in the attacker's arm and forces him into a negative body posture.
> 
> ...


 
The braced index was not described to me as an AGM itself, but as a depth control mechanism.  I have learned one AGM and it does start from this index position.


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## JamesB (Apr 2, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> The braced index was not described to me as an AGM itself, but as a depth control mechanism. I have learned one AGM and it does start from this index position.


 
that could very well be true, I get confused with a lot of the terminology   depth-control is certainly one of the applications of the braced-index

cheers,


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2008)

G.C.M. - Grapple Control Mechanism, is the correct term.


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## Doc (Apr 2, 2008)

IWishToLearn said:


> [yt]NaT1uAMg7yg[/yt]
> And a Delayed Sword.



This thread helps bolster my position about teaching complex physical mechanisms through a video media. It is simply not possible. It however is possible to use the media as personal video notes to support solid in-person instruction.

I'll address several issues in this particular video clip with Prof. Rod Perez, and brown belt Steve "Stix" DeLollis.

The initial movement of the arms, (and more subtle and invisible) the hands, as well as footwork, is to *Survive The Initial Assault*. That is; grabs do not occur in a physical vacuum. There is always a vicarious physical effect of an expeditious, and aggressive grab or seizure.

In this instance in an effort to grab quickly and aggressively before the victim can react, the attacker actually strikes with the open hand "heel palm" and significant body momentum to the chest, before closing the hand to seize clothing material. 

In my experience and lessons, this is simply the way grabs happen in reality. The victim is not static, nor does he allow someone to simply walk up to him and carefully seize his clothing without affecting his body until after the grab. There is significant energy brought to the circumstances before the seizure actually happens in realistic scenario training.

Suggestion: Have someone practice aggressively grabbing and pulling you as quickly as they can, while you stand with eyes closed, and note the body reactions. You should feel your arms and hands "jerk," your hips move rearward, and the effect of the strike to the chest, makes you take a step rearward to "catch" your balance.

The hand and footwork is an extension of the physical effects of the *Startle Reflex* that will result from an unexpected physical intrusive of personal space. Caught "off guard" as the scenario suggest, the hands will reflexively be drawn to the area of contact, with the arms and elbows retreating to protect the torso. The footwork is induced by the physical contact of the aggressive grab. That is, you are to a certain extent been "struck and pushed" before the grab, and your body will take a step rearwards to regain balance and reflexively stabilize its platform. 

So in summation of the initial action of the attacker, it will reflexively create; the hands up position, and the initial stabilizing step rearward.

From that position, we take an additional step rearward with a *PAM*, (Platform Aligning Mechanism), and *Index* the hands and arms to complete the stabilizing process of our lower and upper body, and to join them together creating total structural integrity, as we prepare for the *Initial Retaliation* action. Additionally, the extra step forces the attacker to move with you in reaction, and this will assist in misaligning him, and place him in a "shields down" physical state. Noting there is a physical difference between "action versus reaction."

Keep in mind the scenario is specifically designed for a grab, and *not* an attempted grab. If you were aware enough to anticipate the attempted grab we would simply strike him first, or at the least not allow him to make physical contact. This is a bone of contention in many Kenpo self-defense scenario interpretations that teach a simple "move first" mindset, that unfortunately ignores the reality that human beings in close proximity to each other are not always going to be "prepared" to defend against such actions. Although the autonomic nervous system monitors our body and personal space from one jiffy-second to the next utilizing various body sensors, it may be overwhelmed and "ignore" certain actions as it rolls back sensitivity to adjust to its current environment. That is, how you react standing in the middle of an empty field where you are unaware of the presence of others, is different from walking down the street in New York during rush hour. On the one, you would probably jump and jerk with heart racing and blood pumping with a momentary "fright" reflex. The other because of the constant noise, and volume of people in close proximity brushing and touching us unintentionally, the sensors would adjust. Otherwise we would take on the appearance of some type of an epileptic seizure as we are standing in line at Disney World.

This is also the mechanisms of human anatomy that "pickpocket" thieves use to distract the body sensors with one action so it will "ignore" their true intentions. Magicians and performers use this methodology as well by touching and bumping people while talking to distract the sensors, as they remove your watch unnoticed or perform a "trick." All of these things come under a component Mr. Parker and I made extensive study of over the years called, the *Psychology of Confrontation.*

So for those who insist on a "move first" approach, my answer is a simple one. In human anatomy, it is not physically possible under the majority of circumstances, and when it is possible it is a small minority of circumstances in a civilized society. Standing in the middle of the jungle is another story.

(Note the amount of verbiage necessary to simply explain the attack and the victim reaction.)

So here we are; Attacker is "extended physically" reacting to our reactions to his *Initiated Assault* with his weight shifted to one side. His torso is disassociated at the pelvic girdle, and his own reactions will assist in this. The attacker is holding on unbalanced, and we have recovered and are very balanced structurally and prepared for the next action offensively or defensively. We will address our offensive reaction. (After  Surviving The Initial Assault, I teach our actions are offensive not defensive.)

From our Indexed arm position, we move through the Indexes to  a strike to the head of the humerus of the shoulder that corresponds to L-1, as we cross the visual cortex sensor to "occupy" his PNF (Proprioceptive Neuromuscular Facilitation) Sensors and physically break him down.

(This is one of the reasons for what may appear to be exaggerated movement). All big circles are not bad.

This is done with a *BAM* Body Alignment Mechanism to your right shoulder, as your left forearm PINS his hand and arm.

The strike will cause the weight to shift to the right leg as it collapses, (it may be imperceptible and internal but does occur), and grip strength of the seizing hand will be compromised.

From here we *Pressure Check* his shoulder and control depth with our right hand, as we step forward with a *Gauging (Front) kick* between his legs affecting the Pelvic Girdle and possible striking CV-1.

After the kick, the left hand occupies the Visual Cortex Sensors and right visual quadrant, by moving to an Index Position above the attackers right shoulder.

The right hand now Braces the left hand creating a momentary GCM, and provides *Anatomical Resistance* to align the right arm with the rest of the structure, before unleashing a devastating primary hand sword strike with a BAM, to the right side of the neck at the created posture, and the required angle to LI-18.

The cross and cover incorporate *Exit Indexes* to control depth should it be necessary. We have no anatomically unsound postures when executing, therefore students are admonished to always practice sound body mechanics regardless of circumstances. Further at higher levels of execution of this *Default Technique*, we purposely insert grappling assaults throughout the technique sequence, and at the end to insure structural efficacy at all stages of the confrontation.

The representation here is a beginning scenario execution. Although students may not be given all of the reasons for every execution, (it can become information overload), they will execute the same and continually be effective even as they begin to understand, and as we move the technique to even higher levels of execution.

The above information is only a shell of the information in this scenario. The reason techniques are taught "old school" inflexible is to preserve the "Knowledge Bank" that scenarios are supposed to be, create platforms for moving to advanced levels, create internal energy through proper body mechanics, etc, all while providing effective functional tools. There are no "what if's" because those minor possibilities are either addressed in the physics of the Default technique itself at some level, or another similar scenario teaching vehicle taught concurrently or at later stages. Either way, students are always functional, no matter where they are in their training, whether beginner, intermediate or advanced.

Yeah, I'm back from he U.K.


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## Hand Sword (Apr 2, 2008)

Welcome back Sir!! Awesome post! :asian:


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## arnisador (Apr 2, 2008)

Thanks for taking the time to write this detailed explanation!



Doc said:


> In this instance in an effort to grab quickly and aggressively before the victim can react, the attacker actually strikes with the open hand "heel palm" and significant body momentum to the chest, before closing the hand to seize clothing material.
> 
> In my experience and lessons, this is simply the way grabs happen in reality. The victim is not static, nor does he allow someone to simply walk up to him and carefully seize his clothing without affecting his body until after the grab. There is significant energy brought to the circumstances before the seizure actually happens in realistic scenario training.



On the one hand, this is a good point that so many people seem to miss. (In my experience, it seems like most people miss the dynamics of this matter.) On the other hand, the attacker's second hand in this scenario seems to be dedicated to insuring that the lint in his pocket isn't disturbed during the assault. My point is, the defender seems to have a relatively lengthy preparation time, setting his stance and raising his arms high so they can come down with force--lengthy, that is, in comparison to how long it'd take the attacker to throw a punch/knee/head butt/etc. Getting your stance is hardly avoidable if you're knocked back--you need your feet under you--but I'd think I'd want a hand or two up to deflect an incoming punch ASAP.


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## Doc (Apr 3, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Thanks for taking the time to write this detailed explanation!
> 
> 
> 
> On the one hand, this is a good point that so many people seem to miss. (In my experience, it seems like most people miss the dynamics of this matter.) On the other hand, the attacker's second hand in this scenario seems to be dedicated to insuring that the lint in his pocket isn't disturbed during the assault. My point is, the defender seems to have a relatively lengthy preparation time, setting his stance and raising his arms high so they can come down with force--lengthy, that is, in comparison to how long it'd take the attacker to throw a punch/knee/head butt/etc. Getting your stance is hardly avoidable if you're knocked back--you need your feet under you--but I'd think I'd want a hand or two up to deflect an incoming punch ASAP.


I understand your concerns. However, the *Psychology Of Confrontation Study* addresses this issue in the Attacker *Escalation of Intent*. In this scenario the initial intent of the attacker has to be intimidation, and limited control. Recognize the grab necessitates the attacker be close enough to strike initially, if that was his only goal. Therefore, if that was his initial desire, he could launch the punch unabated just as the grab. Clearly in this scenario he is grabbing to intimidate and test the reaction of the victim. How the victim reacts will affect the next action of the attacker, and how quickly it comes.

In the scenario I teach, the reaction of the the victim actually slows the reaction time of the attacker, by assuming a non-threatening posture while surviving and aligning the body.

What the attacker sees when he initially attacks is a guy who reacts as anticipated and steps back, with his arms down and out, assuming a posture that appears to be benign. This alone will set him up for the initial retaliation and elongate his Perceptual and Mental Speed, thus negating his opportunity to utilize Physical Speed until it's too late. Once that process has begun, the opportunity to engage the strike with the unpinned hand is either diminished, or cancelled by the technique actions in over-riding or occupying the attacker's sensors.


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## JamesB (Apr 3, 2008)

Doc said:


> G.C.M. - Grapple Control Mechanism, is the correct term.


 
Thanks, I think I need a copy of the 101 syllabus!


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## arnisador (Apr 4, 2008)

Doc said:


> In this scenario the initial intent of the attacker has to be intimidation, and limited control. Recognize the grab necessitates the attacker be close enough to strike initially, if that was his only goal. Therefore, if that was his initial desire, he could launch the punch unabated just as the grab. Clearly in this scenario he is grabbing to intimidate and test the reaction of the victim.



Ah, I get it--if he wanted to grab-and-punch he'd be doing that more-or-less together anyway (and pulling in rather than pushing back as you had indicated previously). OK, makes sense!



> What the attacker sees when he initially attacks is a guy who reacts as anticipated and steps back, with his arms down and out, assuming a posture that appears to be benign. This alone will set him up for the initial retaliation and elongate his Perceptual and Mental Speed, thus negating his opportunity to utilize Physical Speed until it's too late.



I see the reasoning. (I think many people using this assault will likely be too drunk to have meaningful perceptual speed anyway!) Is this technique intended to be completed as demonstrated once started (assuming nothing goes wrong, as it always does), or if he tries to disengage do you scale back the response? Of course I imagine it depends on a lot of things--does he have a buddy behind you, is he 8" and 60# bigger than you, etc.


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## marlon (Apr 5, 2008)

JamesB said:


> Hi,
> you are correct in your thoughts - but the movements are designed not just to *realign *the body, but to *optimally align* it prior to striking, to ensure the strikes are as powerful and effective as the body will allow. Yes you could apply broken rhythm and different timing/breathing signatures but that's not the focus of the yellow-belt material being worked on in the clips.
> 
> The 'big stomping' movement is actually a PAM (Platform Aligning Mechnism) rather than a BAM (Body Aligning Mechanism). PAMs are performed by the legs and align the lower platform, whereas BAMs utilize the hands and align the upper platform. The PAM shown in the clip is not a heavy stomp, but rather a deliberate lifting and planting of the foot, emphasising the placement of the heel of the foot to provide structural integrity.
> ...


 

thanks, every bit of info is very much appreciated

respectfully,
marlon


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## Doc (Apr 5, 2008)

arnisador said:


> Is this technique intended to be completed as demonstrated once started (assuming nothing goes wrong, as it always does), or if he tries to disengage do you scale back the response?



Excellent question sir. All of the techniques have a point after Surviving The Initial Assault, that allows a de-escalation. 

However, many operate on an "Assumption of Failure" Mentality by suggesting they are "over-skilled." That is, the prevailing view is to go to the next move in the technique sequence, if the first doesn't work. Some have characterized this process as "over-kill," when in reality it is "under-skilled." 

It has promoted a rapid fire delivery with no regard to positive or negative effects of execution, nor the reaction of the attacker which may in fact negate many of the movements. People rarely stand still and let someone beat the crap out of them. However, it does look cool to the unknowledgeable, but people tend to fight back.

This is more than apparent when the move that fails is your initial block or some other surviving mechanism necessary to even begin the process of retaliation. The necessity to utilize 15 moves for a right punch suggests there is a lack of skill and ability. 

Philosophically, we suggest an "Assumption Of Success" perspective. That is responses are approached with the idea that effective execution are mandated skills necessary to Survive The Initial Assault, and students may not move forward until successful skills are demonstrated at each "Time Signature" marker of the technique sequence. 

Every technique is designed to end the confrontation upon the Initial Retaliation. The rest of the technique is still available in rare circumstances that you would need it, but more importantly, all elements of the techniques are capable of standing alone in execution, and presents the technique as a case study in principles in teaching, and a knowledge repository to be desciphered as skill and knowledge grow. The knowledge and skill level of a technique may rise with no appreciably detectable change in execution.


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## arnisador (Apr 5, 2008)

Doc said:


> It has promoted a rapid fire delivery with no regard to positive or negative effects of execution, nor the reaction of the attacker which may in fact negate many of the movements. People rarely stand still and let someone beat the crap out of them. However, it does look cool to the unknowledgeable, but people tend to fight back.



In fact, this has all too often been my experience with Kenpoists: Very fast hands but a tendency not to alter the technique even when it's clearly failed to work as intended. It has left me somewhat skeptical. One needs to train with partners who will make unpredictable responses!

Thanks for the reply.


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## marlon (Apr 6, 2008)

Hello Doc,
thanks for the explaination.  My question is why L-1 instead of L-6 most of my kempo techniques in similar vien tend to strike at L-6 rather than L-1...

respectfully,
marlon


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## marlon (Apr 6, 2008)

arnisador said:


> In fact, this has all too often been my experience with Kenpoists: Very fast hands but a tendency not to alter the technique even when it's clearly failed to work as intended. It has left me somewhat skeptical. One needs to train with partners who will make unpredictable responses!
> 
> Thanks for the reply.


 

Absolutely!!!

marlon


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## Doc (Apr 6, 2008)

marlon said:


> Hello Doc,
> thanks for the explaination.  My question is why L-1 instead of L-6 most of my kempo techniques in similar vien tend to strike at L-6 rather than L-1...
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



In conjunction with the base explanation of the technique above, an L-1 strike at the "head of the humerus" of the shoulder will control height and depth. Additionally, it will negatively impact the grip strength of the seizing hand in this scenario. L-6 will only give you momentary height control, and for our purposes would be better suited to a strike on an unsupported limb with the hand sensor posture palm forward, fingers up, as seen in attacks like "Alternating Maces."


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## Doc (Apr 6, 2008)

JamesB said:


> that could very well be true, I get confused with a lot of the terminology   depth-control is certainly one of the applications of the braced-index
> 
> cheers,



Yes, "depth control" is one of the functions of the specific application of the GCM. The reason for specificity is depth control may be achieved through a plethora of mechanisms. A GCM is a defined, specific methodology to counter grappling possibilities. All "depth control" methods do not do that, or put another way; "all depth control mechanisms are not necessarily anti-grapple in function."

Science is always specific, and the reason information once codified, is preserved, and readily transferable without mis-interpretational breakdowns in the process. Students become repositories of information that is ultimately decipherable with or without instructor references. The information life cycle becomes infinite.

Let's see now, does water freeze at 0-degrees centigrade or somewhere around 0-degrees? Does it matter?


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## marlon (Apr 6, 2008)

Doc said:


> In conjunction with the base explanation of the technique above, an L-1 strike at the "head of the humerus" of the shoulder will control height and depth. Additionally, it will negatively impact the grip strength of the seizing hand in this scenario. L-6 will only give you momentary height control, and for our purposes would be better suited to a strike on an unsupported limb with the hand sensor posture palm forward, fingers up, as seen in attacks like "Alternating Maces."


 
thank you. true is is that most of the kempo techniques i was thinking of were against an unsupported limb as you describe it.  I will review the grabs an try them with L-1 instead to see the difference.

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc (Apr 6, 2008)

marlon said:


> thank you. true is is that most of the kempo techniques i was thinking of were against an unsupported limb as you describe it.  I will review the grabs an try them with L-1 instead to see the difference.
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



Let me know, and be sure to test the grip strength with the strike.


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## marlon (Apr 6, 2008)

Doc,
what style moves the closest to the way SL4 moves, if there are any?

respectfully,
Marlon


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## marlon (Apr 6, 2008)

Doc said:


> Let me know, and be sure to test the grip strength with the strike.


 

will do sir

respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc (Apr 6, 2008)

marlon said:


> Doc,
> what style moves the closest to the way SL4 moves, if there are any?
> 
> respectfully,
> Marlon



Making "stylistic" comparisons is difficult because "style" is influenced largely by "philosophy," even within optimized scientific parameters of human movement. 

As an example, American Football and Basketball both use sound anatomical movements in execution. However, they look nothing alike because of the rules or "philosophical" perspective that dictates the activity. Therefore to move "similarly," a "style" would also have to share the SL-4 philosophical approach to the activity.

That being said, I have associates from much older and more traditional and cultural styles who move optimally correct, but with a different philosophical mandate that prevents reasonable comparisons.

The best comparison is between similar lineages. In that regard, there are those from Ed Parker's commercial Kenpo that move very well anatomically, and are only separated by the divergence of philosophy between the two Kenpo perspectives that can cause incorrect movement.

Like I have always said, there is nothing wrong with the Kenpo, only the over-riding philosophy that drives the perspective to make it commercially viable, and unfortunately making many of its teachers, knowledge deficient.


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## DavidCC (Apr 7, 2008)

Doc said:


> The knowledge and skill level of a technique may rise with no appreciably detectable change in execution.


 
Do you mean,  detectable by a 3rd party observer?

I bet the attacker on the receivng end would notice a difference... when he wakes up.


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## Doc (May 17, 2008)

DavidCC said:


> Do you mean,  detectable by a 3rd party observer?
> 
> I bet the attacker on the receivng end would notice a difference... when he wakes up.



Well said sir. The attacker definitely will "feel" the difference, even though the movements look the same.


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## marlon (May 17, 2008)

Doc said:


> Let me know, and be sure to test the grip strength with the strike.


 
so i find the l1 strike more effective than the l6 the grip strength seems to be almost completely lost with this strike without damage to the muscle and without the attacker lurching forward on to ones person...they become momentarily neutralized.  I have altered a few things to conform to this new information. thank you
btw for the skk people you can find this right at the beginning of 2 kata...

respectfully,
marlon


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