# Where is "Heaven" and "Hell"?



## Bob Hubbard

Recent events have me pondering things of this nature as of late.

At my uncles funeral, a song was sung about God "descending" from Heaven. I recall hearing many comments about descending into Hell.

When we believed the world was flat placing such places 'above' and 'below' made sense, but, to our current science, such a placement seems an imposibility.  If I go 'below', I hit magma, and eventually pop out the other side of the planet. Might be a short cut to decent sushi, but a place of eternal damnation is unlikely.  Of the same vein is the idea that "Heaven" is above. Above me are clouds, then the moon, then deep space, and eventually yet another star system, and so on.  Unless God descends in a UFO riding in from beyond the edges of the universe, such a placement is also unlikely.

So if up and down are out, what about sideways?  Watching numerous ghost hunter shows, many comments are made of spirits caught 'between worlds'.  'Portals to other worlds' are often cited when one discusses places of strange occurrence such as the Bermuda Triangle.

So, what if places such as "Heaven" and "Hell" are not really up or down, but these 'alternate worlds' or other dimensions? What if what we call ghosts and demons are beings of energy, caught in the 'doorway' as it were?

What if the idea of the laws of conservation of energy, and all of the mythos of 'spirits' are somehow connected?


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## girlbug2

You would not be alone in supposing that Heaven and Hell are other dimensions, accessible by "doorways" of sorts. I do not recall where I heard those ideas before, but then again I have read Science Fiction for many years .

Although, considering that Heaven is supposed to be a particular place where God resides, and not just a metaphorical concept, there are actually infinte star systems and planets in the universe where Heaven could in theory be located. So the idea of Heaven being somewhere "upward" is plausible.


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## 72ronin

How about this,

God is nature, nature is the universe/infinate  and heaven is the place/s where a balance has been found to support life to the point of self realisation, which in turn realises nature and then universe/infinate and calls this balance supporting life god.

Interestingly, if god (being nature) was rejected, then the balance would be broken - therefore leading to an eventual demise of the existance of said being, perhaps the idea of hell...

what do you think?


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## Empty Hands

Heaven and Hell are located in the human mind, where they were slowly invented over the centuries.


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## 72ronin

Empty Hands said:


> Heaven and Hell are located in the human mind, where they were slowly invented over the centuries.


 
Absolutely, and mankinds paranoia of death and the need to control has created the myth of afterlfe, when in fact he simply returns to the energies which created the balance in the first place, this is the basis for afterlife/re-incarnation for the religions of the world. Although they seem to have forgotten this basic lol.


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## stickarts

If there are such places, I believe they are within us.


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## derobec

stickarts said:


> If there are such places, I believe they are within us.


 
The problem though is that once we descend into the hell which is lurking in our minds we find that we actually start to create a real-life version at every turn in our day to day life.

Like attracts like in this instance. 

Best Wishes,
William


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## Bill Mattocks

You ask several questions.  I don't have any answers, but I can add my thoughts.

First, on the issue of 'up' generally being the direction of heaven and 'down' generally being the direction of hell.  I would suppose that early man would have noted that when things die, they fall down.  Placed in the earth, they decompose.  The sky appears clean and beautiful and appears to go on forever.  Just a thought.

As to the physicality of regions described as heaven, hell, or just some sort of afterlife; I have no idea, even though my religion clearly teaches of such places.  I find it fascinating that some current theories on the nature of the universe proposes a multiverse in which there is a form of reality for every potential reality; in other words, if it can happen, it does happen - somewhere.  In an infinite number of universes, some must contain heaven or hell or both, as well as comic-book superheroes and Creators as described by man's religions.  Well, just a thought.

What's more interesting to me as a mind game is this concept of space-time existing as membranes that slap against each other from time to time, exchanging matter and energy, sometimes causing events that we would know as "The Big Bang" and sometimes causing leakage from one universe into the next.  Many of us have experienced the feeling that we woke up one day in a world that was 99.999% like the one we went to sleep in, but with certain things different.  Like something we clearly remembered happening, which our friends and family insist NEVER happened.  Maybe just one little inconsequential thing, but we're sure we remember it, and nobody else does.  Sometimes I wonder if we 'wander' from universe to universe accidentally from time to time, maybe when these 'branes' slap together.  Surely it would be possible in a huge exchange for 'God' to come to earth, or a 'Savior' from a universe where there are such beings.

Just playing mind games here.  I'm of no firm opinion.


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## Jade Tigress

I believe heaven and hell exist in another dimension. Short and sweet but my .02.


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## Xue Sheng

Up there and down there...now it is up to you to figure out which is which and who to believe George Bernard Shaw or Dante


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## Bill Mattocks

_We are all of us in the gutter, some of us looking at the stars _- Oscar Wilde

_You are a child of earth and starry heaven _- Wiccan Blessing for a Newborn

_Non Servium_ - Lucifer, to God on the Occasion of being Cast Out of Heaven

_Better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven_ - John Milton

_Remember, man, that thou art dust.  From dust thou came, and unto dust thou shalt return _- Catholic liturgy for Ash Wednesday.


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## Omar B

They exist in the same place Middle Earth does, books and imagination.


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## girlbug2

Meanwhile, you're avatar is looking kinda messianic there, Omar.


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## Bill Mattocks

girlbug2 said:


> Meanwhile, you're avatar is looking kinda messianic there, Omar.



He's got those 3D eyes that follow you around the room, too.  Like Jesus or Elvis.  Creepy!


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## Empty Hands

Bill Mattocks said:


> He's got those 3D eyes that follow you around the room, too.  Like Jesus or Elvis.  Creepy!



Wait a minute, has anyone ever seen Omar, Jesus and Elvis all together in the same place?  

Oh my God.

IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!


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## Nomad

Both exist right here on Earth.  

It's all too easy to find examples that Dante would be proud of in our fellow human beings, war-torn countries, and so on.  

Any every once in a while, you come across someplace or something (a sunset, a totally peaceful moment, looking into your infant's eyes, etc) that is so absolutely perfect that it takes the breath away.

The ones with little dudes in red suits and horns, or of winged babies playing harps and shooting arrows?  Simply in the collective imagination, I believe.  

I prefer to act in ways that will make my world and the world of those around me a better place simply because it will, rather than for any reward/punishment system that's waiting for me after I'm dead.


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## Bill Mattocks

Nomad said:


> The ones with little dudes in red suits and horns, or of winged babies playing harps and shooting arrows?  Simply in the collective imagination, I believe.



Which is fine. Others believe in their literal existence.  The key word is 'belief'.



> I prefer to act in ways that will make my world and the world of those around me a better place simply because it will, rather than for any reward/punishment system that's waiting for me after I'm dead.



With all due respect, please don't characterize believers as folk living in fear of an angry God and doing the _'right thing'_ because they're terrified of Hell.  It's simply not true.


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## Nomad

Bill Mattocks said:


> Which is fine. Others believe in their literal existence.  The key word is 'belief'.



Which is why I was careful to put the word in there in the first place.



Bill Mattocks said:


> With all due respect, please don't characterize believers as folk living in fear of an angry God and doing the _'right thing'_ because they're terrified of Hell.  It's simply not true.



This was not my intent, although there are definitely people on the extremes of faith who do just that.  It was not intended as a general condemnation of belief or of religion, and if it was read as such, I do apologize.  I do not want to mock anyone for their beliefs, and meant this simply to convey my motivation.  Similarly, I get very frustrated and offended by people who necessarily equate following an (often specific) religion with possessing morality.


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## Bill Mattocks

Nomad said:


> Which is why I was careful to put the word in there in the first place.
> 
> This was not my intent, although there are definitely people on the extremes of faith who do just that.  It was not intended as a general condemnation of belief or of religion, and if it was read as such, I do apologize.  I do not want to mock anyone for their beliefs, and meant this simply to convey my motivation.  Similarly, I get very frustrated and offended by people who necessarily equate following an (often specific) religion with possessing morality.



I'm hip, that's why I was careful in my response to you.  It's all good.


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## Bob Hubbard

I think part of our various belief systems come from primitive needs to explain things.  You'd find a partially buried corpse in a state of decay and think something bad had happened, and come up with evil spirits living 'below' who inflict pain and agony.  You'd see lightning and think the 'gods' were showing their anger, or notice that things like the sun would rise and fall consistently and think someone smart was behind it all.  Over eons, like anything else, gods and demons were consolidated and downsized until you get monotheistic religions with 1 key god and 1 key 'devil', and as customs and beliefs mix, hades splits into heaven and hell, the departed no longer party in a pasture but walk with god in his astral estate, and somewhere somehow someone makes spaghetti fly. 

All of our varied belief systems however share 1 key component, without which they fall apart into illogical chaos: Belief. There is no proof Jesus existed. None. Yet 2.2B people believe. I've never ever seen a person with more than 2 arms, yet 1.2B Hindus have a regiment's worth of gods with 4 or more. They "Believe". Some believe that "God" has hand picked his favored, and no matter what they will be 'saved'. Others believe that ones acts and actions in this life determine their place in the next. Some believe in a system of plusses and minuses that determine if one returns as a person or a bug. Again, it's all 'belief'.  No one's ever returned with Gods black book. Some claim to have been dropped off by aliens after some heavy drinking and strange probing, but no one believes them. 

Some of us believe aliens are the gods our ancestors saw. Some of us believe they are nuts. It's all belief. 

Me, I believe there's something out there beyond what I know...but I don't know what it is.


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## Omar B

Empty Hands said:


> Wait a minute, has anyone ever seen Omar, Jesus and Elvis all together in the same place?
> Oh my God.
> IT ALL MAKES SENSE NOW!



Yes they have!  I recently had lunch with Jesus and Elvis.  Jesus being a Mexican who owes me $20 (It's pronounced Hey-zoos) and Elvis being a Romanian drunk.

I look like the messiah?  It's funny you say that because I took that picture to show my aunt that I had shaved and cut my hair, shoulda seen me before, I was actually asked to pose for a painting as Jesus 2 summers ago.


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## seasoned

Jade Tigress said:


> I believe heaven and hell exist in another dimension. Short and sweet but my .02.


Short and sweet was the way it was meant to be, I think. Take it or leave it, our choice. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 2 and 2 make 4.


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## seasoned

Bob Hubbard said:


> I think part of our various belief systems come from primitive needs to explain things. You'd find a partially buried corpse in a state of decay and think something bad had happened, and come up with evil spirits living 'below' who inflict pain and agony. You'd see lightning and think the 'gods' were showing their anger, or notice that things like the sun would rise and fall consistently and think someone smart was behind it all. Over eons, like anything else, gods and demons were consolidated and downsized until you get monotheistic religions with 1 key god and 1 key 'devil', and as customs and beliefs mix, hades splits into heaven and hell, the departed no longer party in a pasture but walk with god in his astral estate, and somewhere somehow someone makes spaghetti fly.
> 
> All of our varied belief systems however share 1 key component, without which they fall apart into illogical chaos: Belief. There is no proof Jesus existed. None. Yet 2.2B people believe. I've never ever seen a person with more than 2 arms, yet 1.2B Hindus have a regiment's worth of gods with 4 or more. They "Believe". Some believe that "God" has hand picked his favored, and no matter what they will be 'saved'. Others believe that ones acts and actions in this life determine their place in the next. Some believe in a system of plusses and minuses that determine if one returns as a person or a bug. Again, it's all 'belief'. No one's ever returned with Gods black book. Some claim to have been dropped off by aliens after some heavy drinking and strange probing, but no one believes them.
> 
> Some of us believe aliens are the gods our ancestors saw. Some of us believe they are nuts. It's all belief.
> 
> *Me, I believe there's something out there beyond what I know...but I don't know what it is. *



I think it is important to believe in something beyond ourselves and anything the world has to offer. If there is nothing there then it is the biggest hoax every perpetrated.


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## 72ronin

Well, there will always be speculation as to what something unknown is.. untill it is known.

Take the anomolies discovered in space for egsample.
As soon as something moves its a UFO lol  yet after some time its decifered etc
For egsample "Bucky balls" LOL  (NASA terminology people, not mine lol)
Thats those electro magnetic.. things lol that were apparently first discovered during the sts mission and the tether incident and so forth.

   Getting back to the subject, look, i see it as a simple thing. Like the Bee and the flower, they cannot exist without each other can they, so they are one. this is diversity within balance, perhaps two from one and soforth.

So its just that simple you see, we break the balance and we are HISTORY..


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## Xue Sheng

Attributed to Basho (1644 &#8211; 1694) and Hakuin (1686&#8211;1769 or 1685&#8211;1768)

Basho


> Once there was a general of the imperial Japanese army, a brave samurai, who wanted to learn the essence of Zen. He sought out the advice of the renowned Zen Master Matsuo Bashô who lived alone in a mountain hut. He approached the master as he was meditating on a rock, and asked him, &#8220;What is the difference between heaven and hell, honorable master?&#8221;
> Bashô stood up and spat in the general&#8217;s face. The general was astonished and overcome with rage. He unsheathed his long sword and raised it, determined to slice off the Zen Master&#8217;s head.
> Bashô lifted his finger and said, &#8220;You are now at the gates of hell.&#8221; The general&#8217;s face relaxed and he lowered the sword. Bashô continued, &#8220;You are now at the gates of heaven.&#8221; The general became a disciple of master Bashô and eventually achieved true awakening.


 
Hakuin


> "The Gates of Heaven."
> Nobushige, a great samurai, sought out Hakuin and asked: "Is there really a heaven and a hell?"
> "Who are you?" asked Hakuin.
> "I am a samurai," Nobushige replied.
> "You?" Hakuin snorted. "What lord would employ you? You look like a begger!"
> A furious Nobushige began to draw his sword, but then Hakuin said, "Here open the gates of hell."
> Nobushige took the point, sheathed his sword, and bowed.
> "Here open the gates of heaven," said Hakuin.


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## Big Don

Over there.


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## Xue Sheng

Here it is and you can probably get it at FYE or on Amazon


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## elder999

> Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation,nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because *the kingdom of God is within you now*."
> _Luke 17:20-21_


 

There is no hell, save that we make here on earth....


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## Omar B

Always love the Sabbath references.


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## terryl965

Ok I am shootin gfrom the hip here:

Heaven from what I have been told is located 12 miles south of Willy Wonka's Chocolate factory and you need to bring your own wipes because they refuse to supply them anymore before you enter due to all the chocolate mess they are seeing.

Hell is a bit more tricky to get too: you need to make a north turn in Atlanta until you hit the I-5 then head N.E. a quarter miles and slam on the gas, go down the sewer drain and head north once more until you reach the door with the big knockers and hit them three times and a sexy woman in red undies will let you in if you bee bad. The sad news is if you are good it will cost you two childern or grandchildern souls to get in.

I realy hope this helped some of you and you can really see why it is so confusing to everyone.


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## Cryozombie

You all piss me off with this Hell doesn't exist thing.  

It's in New Jersey.  Duh.


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## Carol

Cryozombie said:


> You all piss me off with this Hell doesn't exist thing.
> 
> It's in New Jersey.  Duh.



No it isn't.  Hell is in Michigan, or maybe Norway.


Heaven and Nirvana are nowhere to be found...

...but Paradise seems to be everywhere.


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## Xue Sheng

Carol said:


> No it isn't. Hell is in Michigan, or maybe Norway.


 
You're only saying that because you can't find maglites there


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## Carol

Xue Sheng said:


> You're only saying that because you can't find maglites there



Nah. They're up North. I like North. Plus, I concealed-carry my own maglites for just such an emergency


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## xJOHNx

As Omar Khayyam said it in _1100_ in his Rubaiyat:



> I sent my Soul through the Invisible,
> Some letter of that After-life to spell:
> And by and by my Soul return'd to me,
> And answer'd "I Myself am Heav'n and Hell"



This particular piece made a big impression on me.


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## thardey

Not to be a downer, but this is a question I have spent some time considering, so for a serious answer, see below. For the rest, keep the jokes coming, I am enjoying those too!


As for "heaven and hell:" to be specific, I'll limit my thoughts to the heaven and hell of the Bible. Mostly because that is what is thought of today when people say "Heaven and hell." That is, they don't think of the Greek Hades surrounded by the River Styx, or the Egyptian afterlife, or whatever.

As to those who insist "War is hell" I'm inclined to agree, though I have been fortunate enough to have not experienced that. But what I am talking about here is the place of eternal damnation, in the Bible referred to as the "Second death." That is, events before the 1st death (our natural death) cannot by this definition be hell, as terrible as the situation may be.

In the Bible, there are several terms understood to mean "Hell." The most literal is "Gehenna" which was a garbage dump just outside of the walls of Jerusalem. So, for the non-supernatural readers, there you go. Find a garbage dump, and you have found hell.

To be more esoteric, Gehenna is a place for useless things to be removed and destroyed, so they don't ruin useful things.

Another term is "The Grave" (Hebrew: Sheol, Greek: Hades). Obviously, this is in the ground, or in the sea. (Thus: Down!) Even ashes eventually settle into the ground somewhere. Jesus told a parable about Lazarus going to hades, where he met Abraham, and the rich man. Later letters in the New Testament refer to saints "sleeping." It is a waiting place, some believe you are consciously waiting, some (myself among them) believe you are sleeping. But literally, "Hades" is a hole in the ground where you decompose until the final judgement. (Unless you get eaten, or something. The physical process of decomposition/fertilizer/food is neither here nor there.)

The idea of going straight to heaven and watching over others in their life came later, with the Catholic ideas, but since I'm not Catholic, I won't comment on those.

The "Hell" of the second death is described as a lake of Fire, which is the place of punishment for Satan and his followers. It doesn't exist yet, so there's no point in looking.

As for Heaven -- it often means the same as "sky" or "air" so: up! Technically, that idea of heaven ends with the atmosphere. 

Esoterically, it is the home of God. Since God created the heavens and the earth, he would have been around before the big bang, or at least outside of it. So, I would say that the abode of God is "outside" of the space-time continuum as we know it, and not a function of any alternate reality, or parallel universe.

Of course, again the "Heaven" where we are supposed to want to spend our afterlife doesn't exist yet, either. That is introduced in Revelation just after the lake of fire. It's called "The New Jerusalem." So there's no point in looking for that yet, either.


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## Bruno@MT

[yt]2WQKtbOJ2EI[/yt]


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## The Last Legionary

Hell, MI 48169
Hell, Riverside, CA

Heaven not found.


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## Vulcan

Tein (heaven) is everywhere as well as inside of us. It also encompasses hell, as is is the body of all things present, past, and future.


Think in the principles of quantum physics if you are an atheist. As above, so below.


There is no castle in the clouds with a golden gate guarded by St. Peter. Even the Christian Bible itself does not  contain such a myth.


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## Vulcan

There is no castle in the clouds with a golden gate guarded by St. Peter. Even the Christian Bible itself does not  contain such a myth.


There is no lake of fire with a pit of eternal torment guarded by a fallen angel named Lucifer. This is also a Western myth. The Eastern versions of hell are even more fanciful, and also myths.


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## gocrywolf

A theory on heaven and hell:
  Heaven and hell exist in the mind and hearts of men. Submerged in the spiritual substance that our bodies host through its natural cycle until such a time as the body fails and our energy is released into the incorporeal. In that respect the minds thoughts and the existence of thought within our being  is not limited to the confines of our mind, thus the ability to create unique things. We create hell in our mind through our inability to deal with our shortcomings and our natural imperfections as human beings. Heaven exist in enlighten thought and acceptance of positive and negative energys. If we are to believe the stereotype about heaven being peace and love and hell being hate and chaos then it is fair to say that one that achieves happiness through balance and right conduct, as the term right is understood by them, is in a heavenly state where as someone that is constantly unhappy and whose life is in a state of chaos may be considered to be going through hell. With the understanding that the energy that we perceive through the analysis of thoughts and feelings exist within us but is not limited to our mortal frame then perhaps heaven and hell are all around us and we simply experience it in its entirety when we dont have a mortal chain to hold onto. At the point of death the way we lived dictates the way we think and feel and would determine the reality our concourse essence exists in after we lose our flesh.
  Respectfully wolf


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## Balrog

> Where is "Heaven" and "Hell"?


They're in the dictionary under the letter "H".


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## Yondanchris

Remember the old saying that there is a small grain of truth in stories or myths!
Many "religions" believe in heaven and hell in many forms. 
Without going into a full college course on the Biblical basis for heaven and hell,

Jesus records the truth of both places when he taught his disciples:

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.
All  the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the  people one from another as a shepherd 
separates the sheep from the  goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. 
&#8220;Then  the King will say to those on his right, &#8216;Come, you who are blessed by  my Father; take your inheritance, 
the kingdom prepared for you since the  creation of the world" "&#8220;Then he will say to those on his left, 
&#8216;Depart from me, you who are  cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." 
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.&#8221;
Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 NIV


John through his visions about history future records humanity's end this way: 

"Then  I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky  fled from his presence, 
and there was no place for them. And  I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, 
and books  were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. 
The  dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the  books. 
The  sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the  dead that were in them, 
and each person was judged according to what he  had done. 
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. 
The lake of fire is the second death. 
If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, 
he was thrown into the lake of fire." Rev 20:11-15 NIV

The main question that is asked is which book would you like to be judged by? 

The books of your errors, sin, and vanity 

or 

The book of life 

for one to ask to be judged by the book of life one must know that his/her name is 
written in it! 

Romans 10:9 NIV
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," 
and believe in  your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."


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## Ken Morgan

So your evidence of a heaven and hell comes from an assortment of tales finally recorded in the Bronze and Iron ages, compiled into a book the Middle ages, and then translated from Latin and Greek in the Early modern era, all to the exclusion of the otherwise documented 2900 known deities in all of human existence?

Heaven and hell is entirely what we make it out to be here on earth.


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## MaxR

Right. Hell is coming here to the Earth to new reincarnations, the circle of sansara. Heaven means to leave this material world to the spiritual one of God after we acquire enough of Love here. So to say, to get a multipass to the World of God. 

http://sensei-book.com/index.php/sensei-of-shambala-book-i

Only the human who looks at the world through a prism of love can understand divine presence. And to understand what paradise is Well, for you to have a slight notion of it If you choose the happiest moment in your life when your true love comes, when your life storms with waves of happiness and all-embracing joy, all these sensations will be equivalent to a small divine droplet of love scattered on you. But when a human enters nirvana, paradise, that moment when the soul joins God, figuratively speaking, is the same as if a human swims like a dolphin in the ocean of this infinite divine love. It is impossible to describe with words the fullness of these sensations, just as it is impossible to imagine it in full scope. Unfortunately, the human mind is limited, but in this limitation lies its beauty. Here, in a limited mind, an endless love should be developed.


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