# TKD/HKD - Childs Play



## Disco (May 14, 2004)

Just finished an interesting review of a post on another site, that dealt with what was going on - training wise in Korea. It was stated that only children are training in TKD and HKD. This was from a person who is now living in Korea and decided to take MA's training. He also stipulated that they are handing out Black Belts like candy. He received his first dan in TKD in 10 months and now switched over to HKD, but stated the same time frame for 1st dan in that also. He said he was very disappointed with the whole proceedings. If that's what's going on, kind of makes what's happing here in the U.S. seem hypocritical, if the home office dosen't practice what they preach.


----------



## Black Belt FC (May 14, 2004)

Greetings,



Where did you read that report? In my school NO ONE will get their black belt in TKD or HKD with no less than 400 classes or 3 years......

Lugo


----------



## Disco (May 15, 2004)

Lugo, perhaps here in the U.S. that's the norm, but apparently that's not the norm in Korea. At least that's part of what I derive from the post. It's on budoseek.net - Korean section - HKD/TKD.


----------



## brothershaw (May 21, 2004)

I see that 400 classes/3 years is the minimum for somebody who is really dedicated/ good. Whats the average 6-8 years?


----------



## ShaolinWolf (May 21, 2004)

I did read the original Master of ATA TKD, H.U. Lee received his black belt in Korea in 1 year. Of course, they trained alot. It was rigorous training and he earned it. I've heard TKD schools in Korea and some other schools handing out black belts in 1 years time. It's interesting, but then again, some of the training in other countries can be more of a work out and is/can be quite a bit tougher. Most of the time it is.


----------



## glad2bhere (May 22, 2004)

Dear Disco: 

I consider it something of a "wake-up call".

For a few decades, now, when someone was required to autheticate what they said, or what they taught they could simply say "thats the way its done in Korea". Language and distance prevented people from verifying what they were told. The typical magazine, MA book and class was rife with information often based solely on "...'cuz my teacher said". 

Since the advent of the Internet such constructions and misrepresentations no longer hold water. I can communicate with people in Korea in minutes and such statements as, say, "the KMAIA is the premier organization in Korea" are revealed for the garbage that they are. Even further, as people age in the KMA they develope intellectual skills to ask the right questions and seek out objective sources. Stories about long years secluded in mountains and education under the tutelage of obscure monks collapse under the weight of evidence to the contrary. 

To my mind the result is a long overdue wake-up to the KMA as it really is and not the romantic version people would like it to be. People who are seriously interested in the martial science of the Korean culture will dedicate themselves to long days of research and practice. The rest of the folks who are looking for fancy paper and exotic costumes will continue to meander from organization to organization looking for some Ultimate MA Holy Grail as bequeathed by the Hwa Rang warriors. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## ShaolinWolf (May 22, 2004)

ShaolinWolf said:
			
		

> I did read the original Master of ATA TKD, H.U. Lee received his black belt in Korea in 1 year. Of course, they trained alot. It was rigorous training and he earned it. I've heard TKD schools in Korea and some other schools handing out black belts in 1 years time. It's interesting, but then again, some of the training in other countries can be more of a work out and is/can be quite a bit tougher. Most of the time it is.


Of course this was back in the 1950s. LOL.


----------



## Disco (May 24, 2004)

Of course this was back in the 1950s. LOL.

Apparently, according to postings from people on other sites who are stationed/working and training in Korea, this is the norm in Korea even now.


----------



## Andi (May 24, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> It was stated that only children are training in TKD and HKD.


Did they say what adults were training in? Another art or not at all?


----------



## Disco (May 24, 2004)

The information they give is that adult training is non-exsistant.


----------



## brothershaw (May 24, 2004)

I would imagine that if tkd is part of the public school program, there would be little need for adult training, since by the time you were an adult you had already been doing it all your life, and either hated it or were good enough to keep practicing on your own. I know someone from korea and they while into martial arts didnt seem to have a great opinion of tkd in korea or in general. I will ask them about it when i see them again.
I personally feel tkd is as good as the person who  practices it.


----------



## brothershaw (May 30, 2004)

Asked a korean friend about tkd in korea and was told its not taught in schools, it is taught to the military but not the sport version commonly seen, i would imagine a more self defense oriented version.


----------



## mcjon77 (Jun 3, 2004)

I don't see why the one year time frame for a 1st dan is new to people.  I remember multiple articles have been written about people who train in Korea in HKD, KSW, and TKMS receiving a 1st dan in about a year.  One article in the (now defunct) magazine _Martial Arts Training_ said that the time to first dan was usually 1 year, with second dan coming a year later and 3rd dan 2 years after that.  He also stated that, unlike here, a 1st dan isn't a big deal.  They don't consider you a serious student until about 3rd dan.  One difference is that people who train in Korea (from what I have read) are expected to train 6 days a week, as opposed to the standard 2 or 3 days a week in the US.

Jon


----------



## howard (Jun 3, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> I don't see why the one year time frame for a 1st dan is new to people. I remember multiple articles have been written about people who train in Korea in HKD, KSW, and TKMS receiving a 1st dan in about a year. One article in the (now defunct) magazine _Martial Arts Training_ said that the time to first dan was usually 1 year, with second dan coming a year later and 3rd dan 2 years after that. He also stated that, unlike here, a 1st dan isn't a big deal. They don't consider you a serious student until about 3rd dan. One difference is that people who train in Korea (from what I have read) are expected to train 6 days a week, as opposed to the standard 2 or 3 days a week in the US.
> 
> Jon


jon, you make some good points.  1st dan seems to be held almost in awe in the u.s., whereas the koreans do seem to view it more as the first major milestone - it means you have achieved proficiency in the basic techniques of your art.  also, the one-year time frame to 1st dan is common in our kwan in korea.  but, the guys who earn 1st dan in one year usually train 6 days a week, pretty intensely.


----------



## brothershaw (Jun 3, 2004)

Regarding awe of first dan. From my experience in a few arts most people who start training in anything usually quit within the first 2 months or so. THe people who have stuck it out to first dan or beyond tend to be more serious aoubt the arts than anybody else and not to mention much better( of course).  That is partially because alot of people when they realize how much work that goes into it, how painful it can be etc. call it quits or try something else. I have personally been in that camp before, and am trying real hard to stay out of it.  Also due to movies or whatever people think the black belt means expert, ( and compared to a beginner a black belt does look like an expert or should look like one).  
         If someone has the time and energy to become a black belt in one year
   more power to them.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 4, 2004)

I don't care if you do nothing but train 8 hours/day for an entire year, you still won't be as good as a blackbelt that learned over 3-6 years. There are just so many experiences that you cannot cram into such a short amount of time. As to the article(I didn't read it, sorry) but I'm sure it isn't completely correct. I know that the military trains in TKD because the GM of my small branch of chung do kwan tae kwon do used to train them, And I also know that he tought other adults in Korea. I'm not saying they are liars, I'm saying that they are quite possibly generalizing. Besides, who cares what they do, As long as you are comfortable with your school and system, you should be fine.


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jun 4, 2004)

Our Grandmaster told us that in Korea, earning a 1st Dan in one year is possible because students tend to train 6 days a week several hours at a time. I don't know if it's true now, but it was then. It would be impossible in America since most people train 2 hours a day, 2-3 days a week. We have work, school, and families.
He also said what some people have posted: You aren't taken seriously as a Tae Kwon Do student until about 3rd Dan. However, he added something else. When he was training, there was a lot of gang violence and fighting in Korea (post Korean War). Many of the Black belts were gang members because of their fighting ability. As a result, not only were lower black belts not really respected, many of them were held in contempt by the general public who assumed they were all streetfighters. Only after you achieved 4th Dan or higher were you respected as a Black Belt because it was felt you weren't in Tae Kwon Do just to fight. Don't know how it is now.
Finally, Tae Kwon Do in Korea is the same as it is in America: upwards of 95% are McDojangs taught by low class Instructors who only care about money and don't teach TKD seriously, same as in America. These are my Korean-born Grandmaster's words, not mine. There are some well run professional schools, but not many.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jun 4, 2004)

I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question. 

If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes?  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## SmellyMonkey (Jun 4, 2004)

I've given-up caring about belt rank a few months ago.  (Only been training Hapkido for 1.5 years..still a beginner). 

To me, belt rank is a low-quality symbol of a student's dedication to the art.  In my dojang, students are promoted from white to red based on months of training, not on skill level.  There are red belts who still do not understand the basic theories of the art, and there are blue belts who are close to becoming proficient with the basics. 

Is it so important for us to have belts?  You know, besides to hold our dobak closed.  I don't think so anymore.  I really can't think of one positive reason to have different ranks.  The only rank that matters is the rank you give youself, when you look at your skills and weaknesses in an impartial way.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jun 4, 2004)

"....Is it so important for us to have belts?...." 

Well, yes and no. 

Before the occupation there never was a use of either belts OR fancy titles. There is STILL no term in the Korean language for "grandmaster" or "supreme grandmaster."  Kanos' original idea for belts was to be able to track progress and---more importantly--- match up Judo players of comparable skills. 

Used to be I supported the idea of belt ranks if only for these reasons. Now, I note that people rarely, if ever, actually subscribe to a single teacher or kwan long enough to earn the ranks legitimately. Start a school and when you have a few students organizations start promising rank and standing just to get your revenues moving there way. So whether you have belts or don't have belts people are going dedicate themselves (or not) to the MA.  The only issue that really gripes me about belts is that people get administrative ranks (7th dan and above) and represent them as though they are a measure of ones' technical skill. My experience with most teachers is that once you get past a certain point they stop investing themselves in the learning process such that a 5th dan and a 3rd dan may know pretty much the same things, and that is really sad to think of for the future of KMA. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## mcjon77 (Jun 4, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question.
> 
> If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes? FWIW.
> 
> ...


The guep ranks, for me, help provide a sense of structure and guidance as to what I should be focusing on at what time.   In many styles, the curriculum to 1st dan is fairly large, and rather than a white belt attempting to haphazardly learn all of it at once, he is given a more sequential structure of how to learn the techniques.  This is not to say that he focuses only on learning what is required for the next belt test, at the exclusion of all other things his Instructor has shown him.  Rather, he is given a better idea on where to focus his time practicing in order to improve.  If the process works correctly, you have a student who is consistantly improving, learning new techniques, while having a strong grasp of the fundamentals of the art.  However, in order for this to work, the instructor must promote based on competence in the required areas, rather than merely time in grade.

Jon


----------



## brothershaw (Jun 4, 2004)

I agree that someone with 3-6 years in has more experience than someone with 1 year, thats not rocket science. However if someone after one year has met at least the minimum qualifications for black belt ( as far as technical proficiency, and understanding of the material ) then why not give it to them. THas like making someone stay in college or high school for a extra years when they already met the requirements for the diploma or degree. 
   As we all have seen some people pick things up quicker than otheres, some people progress very slowly. If someone legitiamtely busts their - - - and is up to spec. they should be given the chance to test for it. MAny schools of various arts for a variety of reasons have time frame minimums and thats legitimate too, to some degree.


----------



## howard (Jun 4, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> The guep ranks, for me, help provide a sense of structure and guidance as to what I should be focusing on at what time. In many styles, the curriculum to 1st dan is fairly large, and rather than a white belt attempting to haphazardly learn all of it at once, he is given a more sequential structure of how to learn the techniques. This is not to say that he focuses only on learning what is required for the next belt test, at the exclusion of all other things his Instructor has shown him. Rather, he is given a better idea on where to focus his time practicing in order to improve. If the process works correctly, you have a student who is consistantly improving, learning new techniques, while having a strong grasp of the fundamentals of the art. However, in order for this to work, the instructor must promote based on competence in the required areas, rather than merely time in grade.
> 
> Jon


excellent points.

it seems to work best when there are 2 processes going on at once.  one, the student focuses on the techniques required for their next rank, and learns to relate those techniques to the ones they already know.  two, the student continues to improve the techniques required for all of their previous ranks, thus improving their foundation.  this is probably the norm, since most kwans probably require you to demonstrate all techniques from the lowest rank to the rank you're currently testing for when you test.

promotion based simply on time in rank is just not right.  it has to be based on proficiency in technique.  having a minimum time requirement between ranks makes some sense, especially the higher you go.  but promoting people just because they've been a certain rank for a certain period of time just makes no sense to me.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jun 4, 2004)

Dear Brothershaw:

".....If someone legitiamtely busts their - - - and is up to spec. they should be given the chance to test for it....." 

Yes-- and therein lies the crux of the matter as I see it. In my sojourn through the KMA I have seen WAY too many folks who have NOT been "up to spec" or did not test appropriately even whern given the chance. According to the Confucian Model one rises though a series of stages identified by the governement or authority and controlled by ridgid test requirements. This is a pretty old Korean tradition. I am not denying that a person who is competent should getr a chance to test. My experience however has been one of seeing repeated "grandfathering", or substitution of "like" skills for the requirements. For instance, a guy may be great at Judo, but it does not follow that he then rates getting a BB in Hapkido without training much in that art. 

What makes this even worse is promoting young kids to BB with the illusion that they can not protect themselves from anyone on two legs. An 8 y/o with a BB is not going to take out a 30 y/o 1:1 and that is just reality talking. To my mind giving a kid a BB and not differentiating between an adult rank and a kids' rank is a disservice, maybe even a misrepresentation. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## glad2bhere (Jun 4, 2004)

"....promotion based simply on time in rank is just not right. it has to be based on proficiency in technique. having a minimum time requirement between ranks makes some sense,........" 

Quite right. Pushing a kid ahead because they have been coming to class for a while smells a lot like pushing kids through the public school system when they don't know how to read or have basic classroom skills. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jun 4, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I think I am following what people are saying about Black Belts, but it seems to raise a question.
> 
> If the Black Belt is not given due respect until much farther along, of what possible use are the guep ranks? For me, the gueps are the level at which a person finds out about the goodness-of-fit between the art and ones' Self. The BB is a symbol of dedication to the manner in which one chooses to follow the Path, yes? FWIW.
> 
> ...


What I was told was that in Korea gup ranks are/were not used. You are a white belt until you are a Black Belt. I don't know if that's still the case. Gup ranks were not used in Tae Kwon Do until the Koreans came to the United States and instituted them as a way of keeping American students motivated. How many students in this country would really want to be a white belt until they test for black? Also, when Tae Kwon Do Instructors first came here, they were competing against Judo and Karate, both known styles, with an art very few people had ever heard of. Instituting gup ranks was a way of A. Motivating people to continue training, and B. Giving students a reference point for Tae Kwon Do (TKD uses gup ranks and color belts so it is similar to Karate and Judo).
Even today, I never see pictures of Korean color belt students.
As far as "Grandmaster" titles, right to a certain point. Even the founders of the Kwans never refered to themselves as Grandmasters or Kwan Jangs. They just called themselves the Instructor of X Dojang. My Grandmaster never refers to himself at 9th Dan as Grandmaster or Kwan Jang. He calls himself Senior Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I think refering to yourself as a Grandmaster, Kwan Jang, Supreme Grandmaster, Chiefmaster etc. as some people on this forum do, is an American invention. We just love to have our egos stroked.


----------



## mcjon77 (Jun 7, 2004)

howard said:
			
		

> .... since most kwans probably require you to demonstrate all techniques from the lowest rank to the rank you're currently testing for when you test.


Just wanted to make one comment on this.  I used to study hapkido about 8 years ago, for a very short time.  I was, however, able to go see several guep test and one dan test.  The one thing I noticed was that they never tested you on lower ranked guep material in a higher ranked guep test (I never saw a person testing for red have to show one of the blue belt self defense patterns).  However, for the black belt tests, they always did.

Infact, one of the most vivid memories I have was watching one of the candidates testing for black belt.  He did all of the new techniques he was suppposed to learn for black belt well enough, but then they asked him to do some of the purple belt self defense techniques (the ones I was learning at the time).  He had no clue what they were and resorted to making up something I had never seen before.  They asked him to demo another technique from the lower belts and he didn't know that one either. Needless to say, he didn't pass that time (I moved out of the area later so I don't know whether he ever passed).

I always thought that If they tested on the lower belt stuff during every promotion test it would be much simpler for the students to remember, than to try to relearn all of it just for there black belt.  But then again, it is probably the students responsibility to have kept up with the lower belt techniques.

Jon


----------



## Jion (Jun 7, 2004)

MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> What I was told was that in Korea gup ranks are/were not used. You are a white belt until you are a Black Belt. I don't know if that's still the case. Gup ranks were not used in Tae Kwon Do until the Koreans came to the United States and instituted them as a way of keeping American students motivated.


 Historically speaking, that probably is not very accurate.  The modern belt/gup/kyu system was first put in place by Jigaro Kano for judo, and then adopted by Funakoshi for use in Karate.  Many of the first kwan instructors studied under Funakoshi or his students, and so used the same system their teacher used.  Now, the amount of belts definitely did increase once they got here to the States, to keep our attention.



			
				MichiganTKD said:
			
		

> Even the founders of the Kwans never refered to themselves as Grandmasters or Kwan Jangs. They just called themselves the Instructor of X Dojang. My Grandmaster never refers to himself at 9th Dan as Grandmaster or Kwan Jang. He calls himself Senior Tae Kwon Do Instructor. I think refering to yourself as a Grandmaster, Kwan Jang, Supreme Grandmaster, Chiefmaster etc. as some people on this forum do, is an American invention. We just love to have our egos stroked.


 In Korea, I've been told by both people living there currently and who have moved back, the title kwanjang refers to a business owner or manager.  It basically means "Hey, I run this place."  And to refer to yourself as grandmaster would just be tacky, anyway.


----------



## terryl965 (Jun 7, 2004)

Well my question is why do we hold the korean at such a high value if they hand out 1st Dans like a glass of water... And by the way most of you know how I feel about giving away a rank!!!! I believe you can learn the basic movements in a year just so you can get to first, but my friend say's if your at the right dojaang it will take as long as five years to obtain, just like here in the US you can find school that will just give you a belt for the right price would imagine the same over there as well.... God Bless America


----------



## brothershaw (Jun 7, 2004)

Its one thing to mimic, but another to do correctly, a real good dancer or athlete , might be able to very quickly mimic  the movements in a given martial art within a year, but it still might be  mimicry, so that someoone with an eye could look and see that something  is missing. If you know what I mean. Or you could something but not know why or when to do it.


----------



## kwanjang (Jun 7, 2004)

mcjon77 said:
			
		

> The one thing I noticed was that they never tested you on lower ranked guep material in a higher ranked guep test (I never saw a person testing for red have to show one of the blue belt self defense patterns).  Jon



I too have seen this in some dojangs, and IMHO this promotes replacing techniques with later techniques.  For that reason, all tests (geup or dahn) must go through portions of all techniques in my schools.  In fact, I am MUCH harder on students failing the lower belt materials they should have down pat, and I am a bit easier on grading any materials they have only just learned.



			
				mcjon77 said:
			
		

> I always thought that If they tested on the lower belt stuff during every promotion test it would be much simpler for the students to remember, than to try to relearn all of it just for there black belt.  But then again, it is probably the students responsibility to have kept up with the lower belt techniques.
> Jon



Because techniques are often based on "what went before", it is essential to really work and learn the basics.  Doing so is not just the responsibility of the student, it is also the job of the Instructor to make sure this is done.

There are several types of instructors around.  Some will actually take the time to "teach" material, and others will merely "show or share" the stuff they have learned.  The latter are NOT teachers, they are more like buddies who can't wait to show you the next cool thing they have learned.  These so called Instructors rarely understand the techniques they do themselves (even if they can actually perform them quite well), they seldom are capable of getting someone else to understand them.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 8, 2004)

In one year, training 6 days a week, one could easily learn every technique in TKD. However, could that person properly apply the technique in combat against a non-compliant opponent? Could this person use combinations of timing, distance and misdirection to trick the opponent into doing what they want them to? You can learn the information in one year, but you cannot learn the ability.:soapbox: I will go for giving the blackbelt after 1 year if they required 5 more years before 2nd dan.

HAHAHA, what was this post about originally? It just occured to me that it had nothing to do with rank.
  %think%


----------



## brothershaw (Jun 8, 2004)

To muddy the water a little bit more--

Of all the techniques that anybody is shown how many do they actually use. Better yet of all the things you are shown how much do you actually use. you might find that there are a handful of basic things that someone does very well, and most comfortable with , everything else ( especially under pressure) is forgottten or never used. Its foundational, just like mosat of your education is foundational, and depending on what you do for a living you may never use your h.s. chemistry etc. 

So a person could train 6 days a week for a year, go through everything, practice the basic ( and most important stuff) and  be pretty damn competent. 

I am sure you all have noticed how some people either because they practice alot on thier own time or have some natural ability progress much faster than others who just practice when in class, or have a hard time grasping stuff. 
So imagine training 6 days a week in one style, under competent instruction for a year.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 10, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> So a person could train 6 days a week for a year, go through everything, practice the basic ( and most important stuff) and be pretty damn competent.
> 
> I am sure you all have noticed how some people either because they practice alot on thier own time or have some natural ability progress much faster than others who just practice when in class, or have a hard time grasping stuff.
> So imagine training 6 days a week in one style, under competent instruction for a year.


No. Quite simply you are reducing what I knew and was able to do as a 1st dan after 7 years of training to something that anyone can learn in 1 year. I refuse to validate anyon 1 year blackbelt.


----------



## MichiganTKD (Jun 10, 2004)

I would never recommend someone to test for 1st Dan after a year no matter how good they were. If nothing else, they need to learn patience.


----------



## kwanjang (Jun 10, 2004)

IMHO, it takes more time for the body to make technique second nature than it is for the mind to simply learn the techniques.  Many children KNOW to place food in their mouths; however, many of them miss the target simply because they need more practice  The more technique is in the requirements of an art, the longer it will take.  Some arts so overload their front end curriculum that their students seldom get good at what they are required to do.  In fact, some of these orgs are revamping their curriculum as they see the quality of their students decline.


----------



## kik (Jun 10, 2004)

It really does amaze me that you can Join aTKD school and the Intructor will be more than willing to give you your 1st Dan within a year. At some schools it's guaranteed or your classes and promotion attempts are free until you do achieve 1st Dan. 
  I studied 6 days a week for 5 years before my teacher would let me take the test. I have been into TKD for almost 13 years and tested and recieved my 3rd Dan with my Kukkiwon certs. From looking into the different schools in my area It's pretty much turned into a money making Scam. I'm very disappointed with the way schools operate in my town.

KIK


----------



## brothershaw (Jun 10, 2004)

Well no disrespect to anyone, I belive under the best ( meaning intensive training) circumstances, a person could bre trained to black belt in a year. This is keeping in mind that after passing the test they dont have to nor will they perform everything they are shown. As i said earlier most people in any style tend to prefer a few things that really work for them everything else is pretty much for training purposes anyway ( i.e. foundational) . People tend to prefer a few throws they do , a few combos, a few joint locks etc they can pull off when they need to. In a pressure situation they arent necessarily going  to try anything too fancy. 
            For any black blets on this thread when sparring with other black belts for example do you try complex stuff or stick to good basic stuff that works for you, despite all the variety of things you had to learn to get to 1st dan?  
          Dont get me wrong I am not saying every/ and anybody should get to 1st dan in a year or 2. I am saying that there will be people ( probably a very small percentage ) who could earn it in that time. 
         In life in general poeple sometimes get too stuck on the it took me x amount of time/ work to get here, so nobody should get here any quicker, i wont allow it , it isnt possible.
         Or more martial arts specific, I didnty learn this until such and such, so you wont either even if you are better at this stage than I was. 
        Any teahcer in martial arts or anything else who gets a really talented student should push them along as fast and as hard  as they can, time and talent is too precious to waste, especially in martial arts where age and injuries  are a big X factor. 
             Buying belts is a whole other story.


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 11, 2004)

brothershaw said:
			
		

> Well no disrespect to anyone, I belive under the best ( meaning intensive training) circumstances, a person could bre trained to black belt in a year. This is keeping in mind that after passing the test they dont have to nor will they perform everything they are shown. As i said earlier most people in any style tend to prefer a few things that really work for them everything else is pretty much for training purposes anyway ( i.e. foundational) . People tend to prefer a few throws they do , a few combos, a few joint locks etc they can pull off when they need to. In a pressure situation they arent necessarily going to try anything too fancy.
> For any black blets on this thread when sparring with other black belts for example do you try complex stuff or stick to good basic stuff that works for you, despite all the variety of things you had to learn to get to 1st dan?
> Dont get me wrong I am not saying every/ and anybody should get to 1st dan in a year or 2. I am saying that there will be people ( probably a very small percentage ) who could earn it in that time.
> In life in general poeple sometimes get too stuck on the it took me x amount of time/ work to get here, so nobody should get here any quicker, i wont allow it , it isnt possible.
> ...


If you rush them too fast you risk them missing out on vital experiences. This is what creates what kind of martial artist you become, the experiences. 1 year is simply not enough time to experience what is needed to become mature enough and to ascend past basic ideas. 
As for your question about going for fancy techniques. I do often use my spin and jump kicks in order to mis direct and confuse my opponent. Also, there are certain positions in mhich you end up after a technique where the best thing to do is a spin technique. It is one thing to use your bread n' butter move more than the rest, It is a whole other to forget the rest, and to stop training them.

I refuse to accept that a 1 year black belt is as good as a 4 year blackbelt until I see one of them beat one of my students.


----------



## glad2bhere (Jun 11, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

I was musing to myself over this string when I happened to remember a comment made  some time back regarding a child prodigy who at a very tender age was graduating college. Despite the accomplishment on a technical level, a number of folks voiced concerns that the young graduate was not actually a college grad in the full sense of the word. The reason given was that though he had used is enormous intellectual ability to pass the classes he was too young to avail himself of the interpersonal and social development of the college environment. I believe that the same can be said of many of the pre-mature promotions in the KMA. Becoming a BB carries with it responsibilities to the community and ones peers beyond being able to do an acrobatic kick or well-timed throw. If a person is not able to meet the demands that dedication to a particular value system entails seems to be that person is just playing "dress-up". FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------



## SmellyMonkey (Jun 11, 2004)

As we can see, if you ask 20 martial artists from difference schools what a black belt "means", you will get 20 different answers.  If you ask 20 martial artists from the same school what a black belt "means", you may get 15 different answers.

So how can we apply meaning to something that nobody agrees on?

I bet that in the past, people didn't care so much about what a black belt meant.  The only thing that mattered is if you survived a battle.  Therefore, you didn't train to obtain a pretty belt.  You trained to survive.  If you beat your opponent, you were deemed the better fighter (for obvious reason).  Therefore, the martial artists who survived to old age had to be the best fighters.

In today's world, most martial artists never enter life-or-death struggle with another martial artist.  Therefore, the way we determine our skill in "battle" is to be given a belt of different colors and stripes.  

I personally don't believe belts and stripes matter.  Does this mean I believe we should all fight to the death to prove our skills?  Of course not.  I believe we should train for the love of the art and forget silly things such as belts.  A 5th degree dan martial artist who trains 20 years  gains more of my respect than a  9th degree grandmaster who has trained 15.  Also, a 2nd degree martial artist who has trained 15 years and is a great teacher gains more of my respect than a 5th degree martial artist who trained 20 years and is a poor teacher.  

My two cents...


----------



## kwanjang (Jun 12, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> A 5th degree dan martial artist who trains 20 years  gains more of my respect than a  9th degree grandmaster who has trained 15.  My two cents...



Right you are.  I think we can safely assume that the 9th dahn will have trouble "selling" us on the idea s/he has earned the rank


----------



## Han-Mi (Jun 12, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Folks:
> 
> I was musing to myself over this string when I happened to remember a comment made some time back regarding a child prodigy who at a very tender age was graduating college. Despite the accomplishment on a technical level, a number of folks voiced concerns that the young graduate was not actually a college grad in the full sense of the word. The reason given was that though he had used is enormous intellectual ability to pass the classes he was too young to avail himself of the interpersonal and social development of the college environment. I believe that the same can be said of many of the pre-mature promotions in the KMA. Becoming a BB carries with it responsibilities to the community and ones peers beyond being able to do an acrobatic kick or well-timed throw. If a person is not able to meet the demands that dedication to a particular value system entails seems to be that person is just playing "dress-up". FWIW.
> 
> ...


Well said, good analogy.


----------



## bignick (Aug 13, 2004)

to bring the perspective back to it being about child's play...there's a korean that started training at our club at the college...i was having a talk with him..he wears a white belt but i found out he earned a black belt as a kid...he said almost every kid does it...but once they hit high school....most quit...too much time taken up by schoolwork...he said the normal schedule for him was...school, eat, homework, sleep
no time for anything else

he also said that the only adults that practice are the ones that do it for a living...there are no casual twice a weekers...that compose the majority of practitioners in the u.s.


----------



## glad2bhere (Aug 13, 2004)

I would like to put a word in for what I call are the "in-betweeners", then. On the one hand we certainly have the folks who make class maybe once or twice a week. On the other hand we have people who run a school and train and teach almost 7 days a week. What about the people who train as an avocation--- a hobby? By this I mean they train maybe three or four times a week--- perhaps an hour a day. When not actually in class they are mulling over this move or than move, sorta like the way a golfer will muse over a swing, or a bowler will consider a particular approach on the alley. They follow various competitions, and keep up on whats happening in the chat rooms and in the press. They are constantly picking up odd bits and adding them to what they know or comparing--- looking for clues to make their skills better. They have their day-job, and their family, and their kids and other responsibilities, but they are often musing over martial themes the way some people chew-over baseball scores or football stats. Aren't there folks like this in Korea? Is there a place for these folks in the MA community? Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


----------

