# Self Defense & Martial Arts Confusions and Misconceptions



## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

Read this article and find out about the differences between competitions fighting, martial arts and self defense:
Martial Arts Misconceptions


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## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2017)

Welcome to MT, is this an article for discussion or an advertisement?


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

It's an article for discussion. There's quite a bit in there.


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## Tez3 (Jul 1, 2017)

I think if you go through threads here we cover everything that's in the article already. Perhaps you could make a few points to start off the discussion?


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> Read this article and find out about the differences between competitions fighting, martial arts and self defense:
> Martial Arts Misconceptions


its the same old same old, trying to make the concept of fighting an attacker in to some phycology clap trap.

striped down version, don't fight if you don't have to, if you do have to hit them hard and often. It helps if you very fit and good at what ever,MA you study. It's really not that complicated


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

You can say "same old, same old" about any and all martial arts topic. Of course it's all been said before - it's been discussed for thousands of years. But if people didn't want to keep talking about it, this forum wouldn't exist.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> You can say "same old, same old" about any and all martial arts topic. Of course it's all been said before - it's been discussed for thousands of years. But if people didn't want to keep talking about it, this forum wouldn't exist.


no its the,same old,same old from some one trying to sell a book or a new self defence system.
first explain why all existing MAare no good for self defence, wrap this up in pretend phycology and then explain why your approach deals with all these factors .


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

The only thing you're doing is demonstrating the fact that you either didn't read the article or didn't understand it.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> The only thing you're doing is demonstrating the fact that you either didn't read the article or didn't understand it.


well I read it, its much the,same,as a dozen or so other articles' I've read, if there is a hidden meaning not covered by my summary, perhaps you would care to explain it


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

I'm just going to let others read it for themselves and form and express their own opinions about the topics covered. Your opinion has been noted. Thank you.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> I'm just going to let others read it for themselves and form and express their own opinions about the topics covered. Your opinion has been noted. Thank you.


I though you had posted it for discussion purposes, now it seems you don't want to discuss it at all,well not when people disagree with you


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

You didn't disagree with anything in there. You just said it's the "same old, same old" which can be said about any and all martial arts topic. Formulate an actual argument about the topics covered in the article, and we'll have something to discuss. All you're doing here is complaining.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> You didn't disagree with anything in there. You just said it's the "same old, same old" which can be said about any and all martial arts topic. Formulate an actual argument about the topics covered in the article, and we'll have something to discuss. All you're doing here is complaining.


but you've just posted a link and nothing at all to support it.

my point is everything in it is either blatantly obvious, don't fight if you don't have to, run if you can, OR a complete misrepresentation of the,effectiveness of MA in general

your statement that ufc doesn't work for self defence as it has weight classes and your not allowed to head but  makes no sense.
perhaps you would care to try and support that argument


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

The argument is that as soon as you impose rules and regulations on things, you make them less realistic, since reality has none of those rules.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> The argument is that as soon as you impose rules and regulations on things, you make them less realistic, since reality has none of those rules.


that doesn't mean that a ufc,fighter if attacked can't,feint left, deliver a kick to the,abs and knock them over with a right,cross. Would that be more realistic if he head butted him as well ?


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## AmiToben (Jul 1, 2017)

You clearly didn't understand the article then. I stated more than once that I'm not saying UFC fighters can't defend themselves. 
Anyone who's ever delivered or received a kick to the balls will know how effective it can be. The fact that this simplest of things can never be delivered (since it's against the rules) or received (since everyone wears a cup) is one of many examples of why competition fighting =/= reality.


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2017)

Honestly I don't agree with a lot of that article. Saying the mist important thing is to learn to not go in the wrong places....well that's just obvious everyone knows that but even in the richest neighbourhood you can get attacked.

Also I don't think many people believe mma is a real life fight. That's why the ufc tag line is "as real as it gets" that means it's not like a real street fight but it's closer than other sports. So the ufc even acknowledges it.

Also agreed with other people, this has all been said before we've been through the sport vs street nonsense hundreds of times but since you're new I'll tell you what's been said. Yes sport has it's rules but sportsmen don't. Do you really Anderson silva couldn't kick a man in the groin or poke him in the eyes. The sports men follow their rules doesn't mean they can't break them...hell plenty break the rules consistently look at jon jones.

Also saying you beat guys more experienced than you by kicking them in the knees...yeah okay I find that very hard to believe because well firstly...mma fighters use leg kicks all the time so yeah..

Also you say you used groin kicks to win a sparring match.....well that makes you a bit of a dick kicking your training partner purposely in the groin during a friendly sparring match...I'm sure he could do the same to you if he wanted.

Also you haven't actually told us anything about yourself.


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> You clearly didn't understand the article then. I stated more than once that I'm not saying UFC fighters can't defend themselves.
> Anyone who's ever delivered or received a kick to the balls will know how effective it can be. The fact that this simplest of things can never be delivered (since it's against the rules) or received (since everyone wears a cup) is one of many examples of why competition fighting =/= reality.


people who,are trained in not getting kicked are just as good at not getting kicked in the ball as they are at not getting kicked in,the leg.


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> You clearly didn't understand the article then. I stated more than once that I'm not saying UFC fighters can't defend themselves.
> Anyone who's ever delivered or received a kick to the balls will know how effective it can be. The fact that this simplest of things can never be delivered (since it's against the rules) or received (since everyone wears a cup) is one of many examples of why competition fighting =/= reality.


Yeah I've been kicked in the groin loads of times and yeah it sucks but I've never been in a position where I had to stop what I was doing because of it I took it and got on with it. To me groin kicks are more of a set up to cause pain to distract them or move their body into a good position. Also you talk about the street. A lot of guys will be either drunk or on drugs or simply adrenaline. These things can make them not feel pain until later


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## jobo (Jul 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah I've been kicked in the groin loads of times and yeah it sucks but I've never been in a position where I had to stop what I was doing because of it I took it and got on with it. To me groin kicks are more of a set up to cause pain to distract them or move their body into a good position. Also you talk about the street. A lot of guys will be either drunk or on drugs or simply adrenaline. These things can make them not feel pain until later


yea groin kicks,suck, but they are not generaly a,show stopper, unless its the movies


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2017)

jobo said:


> its the same old same old, trying to make the concept of fighting an attacker in to some phycology clap trap.
> 
> striped down version, don't fight if you don't have to, if you do have to hit them hard and often. It helps if you very fit and good at what ever,MA you study. It's really not that complicated


Agreed fighting isn't a psychology at all. A fight is mainly 2 idiots who argue over something stupid or 1 idiot trying to hurt someone else. Fighting isn't a science it's a game of luck its whoever lands the best punch or kick or whatever first. Skill really doesn't play much into fights. It helps but it's no deal breaker


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## Headhunter (Jul 1, 2017)

jobo said:


> yea groin kicks,suck, but they are not generaly a,show stopper, unless its the movies


I mean I've sometimes taken a few seconds to compose myself before I carry on but if I was in a real situation I know I'd be able to like in drills I'd stop adjust deep breaths carry on but if I've ever sparred I've taken It carried on the round times called then say bugger me that hurt.  They can stop someone but not always


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 1, 2017)

Welcome to MartialTalk Ami!  I enjoyed reading your article.


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## CB Jones (Jul 1, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> I mean I've sometimes taken a few seconds to compose myself before I carry on but if I was in a real situation I know I'd be able to like in drills I'd stop adjust deep breaths carry on but if I've ever sparred I've taken It carried on the round times called then say bugger me that hurt.  They can stop someone but not always



I would have agreed with you up til two weeks ago....when I was caught right in the jewels with a full power switch kick with no groin protection.....It was horrible!


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## CB Jones (Jul 1, 2017)

Appreciate the article and welcome to MT.


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## hoshin1600 (Jul 1, 2017)

Ami;
the issue here is you came to a martial arts forum.  some of us here have been training for 30 years or longer.  your article is ok, there is nothing that i read, that is really incorrect but it is a little amateurish to some of us.  it seems to be aimed at people with no experience.

_"Martial arts is one of those subjects that as soon as you raise them, a weird mood sets in. Some people get oddly self-confident, others get defensive and most exhibit a strange combo of both. It’s almost as if a controversial political questions has been asked."_
starts off with a slight accusational tone...
then you go on to tell us of your experience which is fine but i hope you expect us to be wowed or impressed.  your opinion is not anymore valid than anyone else. but for the article on your sight its ok to start off like this.

_"Discussions and argument about which martial art is most effective are quite common. "_
well not really.  actually any thread like that bores us here.

_"Most people automatically assume that effectiveness refers to self-defense—how effectively you can protect yourself from violence. "_

"_protecting yourself from a momentary punch to the face usually isn’t as important as protecting yourself from debilitating, chronic back pain, high cholesterol, heart disease and various other stress-related illnesses."

"The goals of a private citizen are different from those of an on-duty law enforcement officer, which are quite different from those of a special operations team member."

"The dichotomy between training and reality is probably what’s responsible for most of the confusion in regards to realistic self-defense."
_
You see, statement like these have been discussed a million times here, always brought up by new posters who are new to martial arts.
its all good if you actually want to talk about a particular subject, but we are not unaware that you posted here to promote your self and your web sight.  doing that in and of its self comes off here as a little distastefull.  there have been many people that come and disappear rather quickly because they did the same thing.  this is a community of martial artists.  if you want to be a part of the community, please take the time to write something in the New Members forum and introduce yourself.  get involved and join in on conversations.  other wise you may find people to be a little aggressive.
wish you luck in your business.


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I would have agreed with you up til two weeks ago....when I was caught right in the jewels with a full power switch kick with no groin protection.....It was horrible!



A lot of people getting groin kicked that are supposed to have no knowledge of getting groin kicked though.


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## CB Jones (Jul 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> A lot of people getting groin kicked that are supposed to have no knowledge of getting groin kicked though.



And the org that my son competes in....the groin is a legal target......sadistic sons-a-b*****s....


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## drop bear (Jul 1, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> And the org that my son competes in....the groin is a legal target......sadistic sons-a-b*****s....



Yeah. I think i will just suffer the skills gap. Kudo lets it happen as well.

I do like the constant kick em in the knee comments that get put up in these articles.  And then mention you can kick people in the knee in MMA.


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## CB Jones (Jul 1, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I do like the constant kick em in the knee comments that get put up in these articles.



Because most people will keep their knee stationary and locked in a fully extended position while you kick it....its easy.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 1, 2017)

I've read the article and I have a question to the OP. You talk about aikido training and say the following about it:  



> Strictly from a self-defense perspective, the two martial arts I’m most into—aikido and Krav Maga (which isn’t actually an art, but a self-defense system)—appear on the face of it to be on opposite extremes on this spectrum. Aikido training attacks are either grabs or strikes that are mostly derived from traditional Japanese sword fighting. As the technique is applied, the attacker cooperates with the move and this is why many aikido techniques are so elegant, flashy and beautiful. Training like this will obviously not prepare someone to defend themselves against all street-level violence—*nor does it set out to do so. *



My question is, if aikido doesn't set out to train you in self defence, what (in your opinion) is its purpose?


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I've read the article and I have a question to the OP. You talk about aikido training and say the following about it:
> 
> 
> 
> My question is, if aikido doesn't set out to train you in self defence, what (in your opinion) is its purpose?



Well really it depends on the Aikido you train.  Yoshinkan Aikido is very close to the Daito Aiki-Jujutsu, so it works for self defense.  Others are more about spiritual cultivation first and foremost.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I would have agreed with you up til two weeks ago....when I was caught right in the jewels with a full power switch kick with no groin protection.....It was horrible!


I've been tapped on the jewels  and that was enough to stop me.  lol    Not sure why so many people don't think it's an effective play, especially when we have seen so many professional fighters get hit there and it stopped them. It's medically and scientifically proven that getting hit there will cause trauma. 




The only thing about a groin kick is that it's a target and targets can be missed.  It's no different than striking at a person's face.  If I miss the face then I don't say punching at the face isn't effective.  If I miss then I try again.  If I miss a groin kick then I just try again.  But for some reason may people think that trying to kick the groin after failing to land a good hit means that the strike isn't effective.  Some people think that groin strikes are a "guaranteed" fight ending strike, but it's like everything else with fighting; nothing is guaranteed and if you miss then strike again.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've been tapped on the jewels  and that was enough to stop me.  lol    Not sure why so many people don't think it's an effective play, especially when we have seen so many professional fighters get hit there and it stopped them. It's medically and scientifically proven that getting hit there will cause trauma.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, if we were comparing the head to the groin in terms of targets, the groin is a lot less mobile and (usually) less defended than the head. After all, you don't see too many people running into a fight covering their groin with their hands do you?


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've been tapped on the jewels  and that was enough to stop me.  lol    Not sure why so many people don't think it's an effective play, especially when we have seen so many professional fighters get hit there and it stopped them. It's medically and scientifically proven that getting hit there will cause trauma.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think sometimes people get two strikes to that area confused. Usually when you say "I got dropped by a hit in the balls" it either wasn't a hit to your balls or you were suckered.  Your balls will actually receed a bit into the pelvis when fight or flight kicks in, plus you instinctively guard them.  A straight hard shot to the pelvic however will drop you fast it will also drop a female Justice fast because the pelvis itself has so many nerve clusters there that a good solid shot there will drop most anyone without going protection but again that's an area that you still instinctively cover so it's often easier said than done.

So straight in kick yes, upward kick between the legs not so much.  The later is more easily avoided with no increase in "payoff."


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## Paul_D (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> your statement that ufc doesn't work for self defence as it has weight classes ........makes no sense.
> perhaps you would care to try and support that argument


It makes perfect sense, and it is explained.


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## Paul_D (Jul 2, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Also I don't think many people believe mma is a real life fight.


You haven't been paying much attention round here then.


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## Paul_D (Jul 2, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> You clearly didn't understand the article then.


Get used to it, you'll get that a lot.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It makes perfect sense, and it is explained.


he won't answer, if your setting yourself up as his champion, perhaps you can explain it.


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> its the same old same old, trying to make the concept of fighting an attacker in to some phycology clap trap.
> 
> striped down version, don't fight if you don't have to, if you do have to hit them hard and often. It helps if you very fit and good at what ever,MA you study. It's really not that complicated



Combat is all about psychology.  Hell you yourself in another thread pointed that out when you referred to some "brain washed" soldiers sill freezing under fire.  That is a psychological reaction to the fight or flight reflex.   

Everything in the article is also NOT blatantly obvious.  How many people, that you know, actively think about the preventative measures?  Do they scan a room for entrances and exits as they enter?  Do everything they can to have their back to a wall when they sit down?  Do they practice what is often called target hardening?


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Combat is all about psychology.  Hell you yourself in another thread pointed that out when you referred to some "brain washed" soldiers sill freezing under fire.  That is a psychological reaction to the fight or flight reflex.
> 
> Everything in the article is also NOT blatantly obvious.  How many people, that you know, actively think about the preventative measures?  Do they scan a room for entrances and exits as they enter?  Do everything they can to have their back to a wall when they sit down?  Do they practice what is often called target hardening?


jeez, you have a severe case of paranoia if you wont sit down with out your back to the wall, im suprised you make it out of your own front door.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Combat is all about psychology.  Hell you yourself in another thread pointed that out when you referred to some "brain washed" soldiers sill freezing under fire.  That is a psychological reaction to the fight or flight reflex.
> 
> Everything in the article is also NOT blatantly obvious.  How many people, that you know, actively think about the preventative measures?  Do they scan a room for entrances and exits as they enter?  Do everything they can to have their back to a wall when they sit down?  Do they practice what is often called target hardening?


combat is about the ability to hurt people, preferably more than they hurt you. That's it, no pycobabble. If someone hits you you beat them up, if you have some phycolocal weakness' that prevents you from doing that, then you simply can't defend yourself and should really give up MA and do knitting


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> combat is about the ability to hurt people, preferably more than they hurt you. That's it, no pycobabble. If someone hits you you beat them up, if you have some phycolocal weakness' that prevents you from doing that, then you simply can't defend yourself and should really give up MA and do knitting



Self defense adds a new wrinkle.  The first goal of self-defense is to avoid the fight first and only fight when you have to.  You do that via the issues I raised, and then some.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Self defense adds a new wrinkle.  The first goal of self-defense is to avoid the fight first and only fight when you have to.  You do that via the issues I raised, and then some.


. Have you made that rule up? It's sounds like its for woosess
the point of keeping my self fit and healthy AND doing MA, is I can walk about with out being worried about my safety and don't have to take any nonsense of idiots. Someone annoys me they get told, if they carry on, then its quote possibly a fight

I really couldn't live you your paranoid world of being scared of my own shadow and sitting with my back to the wall​


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

..


jobo said:


> jeez, you have a severe case of paranoia if you wont sit down with out your back to the wall, im suprised you make it out of your own front door.



If your career made headlines like all the ones on this simple Google search,
Police Officers ambushed

you would exercise caution as well.  There is a difference between caution and paranoia. 

That said it is always a good plan to not have your back to entrances etc.  Can you always do it?  No but its safe practice.  One of the reasons you do try to do this all the time is to build muscle and mental memory.  If you go to a good place to eat but it's in a sketchy part of town, even if only every now and then, you want good habits to help protect you.  It's no different than repeating the same punch or kick over and over again.  If the muscle memory isn't paranoia, neither is the mental, so long as it is practiced properly, simply as a matter of habit and caution vs. "omg mass shooters are everywhere."


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> . Have you made that rule up? It's sounds like its for woosess
> the point of keeping my self fit and healthy AND doing MA, is I can walk about with out being worried about my safety and don't have to take any nonsense of idiots. Someone annoys me they get told, if they carry on, then its quote possibly a fight
> 
> I really couldn't live you your paranoid world of being scared of my own shadow and sitting with my back to the wall​



Ahh you openly identified yourself as a troll, at last.  That said, no its based on the result of almost 20 years of dealing with the victim's of crime and also having to parse who was "really" engaged in self-defense, vs a simple mutual fight where everyone gets locked up, or the person who engaged in self defense but went too far and they still ended up getting locked up.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Ahh you openly identified yourself as a troll, at last.  That said, no its based on the result of almost 20 years of dealing with the victim's of crime and also having to parse who was "really" engaged in self-defense, vs a simple mutual fight where everyone gets locked up, or the person who engaged in self defense but went too far and they still ended up getting locked up.


I can fight, I've never been a "victim " of violent crime. . That really the point of learning ma, isnt


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> ..
> 
> 
> If your career made headlines like all the ones on this simple Google search,
> ...


I just go where I want, when I want and sit where I want,
Asda general rule no one bothers me.

you live in a dark world, where there is danger in every eating place, and you have to check exits and walls. Ooo made me shiver


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> jeez, you have a severe case of paranoia if you wont sit down with out your back to the wall, im suprised you make it out of your own front door.


I actually don't sit with my back to the door unless I know that the person across from me keeps an eye out for the environment behind me.  For me it's not paranoia, it's just that I can't be aware of my environment if my back is turned to it and I'm starring at a wall.  #1 Rule of self defense.  Be aware of your environment so turning my back to the door only makes me aware of the wall. 



jobo said:


> you live in a dark world, where there is danger in every eating place, and you have to check exits and walls. Ooo made me shiver


  We all live in a dark world, we just aren't all affected by the "darkness" the same way.  Some of the people who were directly affected by the "darkness" say the same thing that you say, that people in general don't bother them.  Yet that is not a state of being that will always hold true without preventive measures.  Even then there is no guarantee that it will hold true even with preventive measures.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I actually don't sit with my back to the door unless I know that the person across from me keeps an eye out for the environment behind me.  For me it's not paranoia, it's just that I can't be aware of my environment if my back is turned to it and I'm starring at a wall.  #1 Rule of self defense.  Be aware of your environment so turning my back to the door only makes me aware of the wall.
> 
> We all live in a dark world, we just aren't all affected by the "darkness" the same way.  Some of the people who were directly affected by the "darkness" say the same thing that you say, that people in general don't bother them.  Yet that is not a state of being that will always hold true without preventive measures.  Even then there is no guarantee that it will hold true even with preventive measures.


the other guy said that the first rule of self defence was don't fight unless you have to

how many first rules are there?
mine is goad them into taking the first punch so you can claim they started it

really though your taking it far  im sat in a pub garden on a warm summer evening, just chilling and sipping a coke.
I've got my back to a load of people and my little dog is chilling out as well. You must have no quality of life to be constantly on your guard


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## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2017)

I like to sit where I can see the entrance and the whole room so I can see any hot chicks that come in...


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I like to sit where I can see the entrance and the whole room so I can see any hot chicks that come in...


now that's a sensible seat selection


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> the other guy said that the first rule of self defence was don't fight unless you have to
> 
> how many first rules are there?
> mine is goad them into taking the first punch so you can claim they started it
> ...




I've got an ex military friend who always has to sit with his back against a wall where he can see everyone within 10m. He says it's part of his ptsd *shrugs*


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## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> Asda general rule no one bothers me.



Ah that explains it, you only go to ASDA.

ASDA is a British supermarket chain (cheap) that went into bankruptcy and was bought by Walmart, explains all don't you think.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> I've got my back to a load of people and my little dog is chilling out as well. You must have no quality of life to be constantly on your guard


 We are what our environments make us


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## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I've got an ex military friend who always has to sit with his back against a wall where he can see everyone within 10m. He says it's part of his ptsd *shrugs*



Most military will do this especially the older ones, it's a hangover from the Northern Ireland conflict where you had to watch out for the Provos chucking bombs and shooting people.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Most military will do this especially the older ones, it's a hangover from the Northern Ireland conflict where you had to watch out for the Provos chucking bombs and shooting people.



I don't think he ever went to Ireland. His main deployment was Afghanistan but I'm guessing the scenario was similar.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> We are what our environments make us


no out environment is what we make, it or in your case what you imagine it to be


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## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I don't think he ever went to Ireland. His main deployment was Afghanistan but I'm guessing the scenario was similar.


It's far more complicated than PTSD.  If I eat in public at work while in uniform (which I rarely do), someone should be facing the entrances.  Such actions need to be habit and the only way to make something a habit is to do it on a regular basis.  This may apply even tonthe adventurous "foodie" who seeks out restaurant gems in bad neighborhoods.  The same practice is good for general self defense simply because it acts as reinforcement for basic situational awareness.


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## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> It's far more complicated than PTSD.  If I eat in public at work while in uniform (which I rarely do), someone should be facing the entrances.  Such actions need to be habit and the only way to make something a habit is to do it on a regular basis.  This may apply even tonthe adventurous "foodie".  The same practice is good for general self defense simply because it acts as reinforcement for basic situational awareness.


so you only do it in your own time as practise for work, that's not what you we're saying earlier when you thought every one should do it


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## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I don't think he ever went to Ireland. His main deployment was Afghanistan but I'm guessing the scenario was similar.



It's reasonable common sense actually and should be taken up again with the current terrorist threats. it's not paranoia. it becomes a habit in the same way you lock your doors before leaving home, don't leave your car keys in the ignition etc. A precaution nothing else.


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It's reasonable common sense actually and should be taken up again with the current terrorist threats. it's not paranoia. it becomes a habit in the same way you lock your doors before leaving home, don't leave your car keys in the ignition etc. A precaution nothing else.


what if you go to a restaurant and they give you a table in the middle with no wall, the poor guy would have a serious break down,,,, OH NO there are people behind me PANIC


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if you go to a restaurant and they give you a table in the middle with no wall, the poor guy would have a serious break down,,,, OH NO there are people behind me PANIC



Look if this triggers things for you I know some good help sites.

I believe sincerely that if you learnt to read posts properly it would be an immense help to understanding what people are saying then you could join in the adults conversation safe in the knowledge you were contributing something rather than having everyone think you are trolling. Learn to read - Read Easy


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> It's far more complicated than PTSD.  If I eat in public at work while in uniform (which I rarely do), someone should be facing the entrances.  Such actions need to be habit and the only way to make something a habit is to do it on a regular basis.  This may apply even tonthe adventurous "foodie" who seeks out restaurant gems in bad neighborhoods.  The same practice is good for general self defense simply because it acts as reinforcement for basic situational awareness.



I won't claim to know exactly what it's all about, I'm just repeating what my friend has told me when I asked him about it.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I won't claim to know exactly what it's all about, I'm just repeating what my friend has told me when I asked him about it.


Oh what your friend says is very real, I have a former coworker who came back from deployment with PTSD.  All I am saying is that you can practice the same habits in a way that is psychologically healthy, it need not be symptomatic of a disorder of some sort.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> It makes perfect sense, and it is explained.



You dont have weight classes in MMA training. weight classes are a lie.


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You dont have weight classes in MMA training. weight classes are a lie.


here is a vid of mmaers breaking all the rules, tp to show that they can bite and eye poke with the best


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Oh what your friend says is very real, I have a former coworker who came back from deployment with PTSD.  All I am saying is that you can practice the same habits in a way that is psychologically healthy, it need not be symptomatic of a disorder of some sort.


how have you convinced yourself that your paranoid condition   is healthy


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Combat is all about psychology.  Hell you yourself in another thread pointed that out when you referred to some "brain washed" soldiers sill freezing under fire.  That is a psychological reaction to the fight or flight reflex.
> 
> Everything in the article is also NOT blatantly obvious.  How many people, that you know, actively think about the preventative measures?  Do they scan a room for entrances and exits as they enter?  Do everything they can to have their back to a wall when they sit down?  Do they practice what is often called target hardening?



Cash in transit. They do courses.
Security Officer Training Courses, Certificate 3 in Security Operation

lonley planet travel tips.
Safety in Australia - Lonely Planet

It isn't really martial arts though. Because they don't have the grounding. What I mean is a martial arts background is not a qualification for any of that stuff. If martial arts do that stuff they need to be qualified elsewhere. If not they are just making stuff up as they go along.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> here is a vid of mmaers breaking all the rules, tp to show that they can bite and eye poke with the best



Here is a misconception. RSBDers have a monopoly on real street experience. I know ring fighters with more real world under their belts than 20 so called real world experts.

Australian Mark Hunt dismisses street fighting link to UFC


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Cash in transit. They do courses.
> Security Officer Training Courses, Certificate 3 in Security Operation
> 
> lonley planet travel tips.
> ...




I wouldn't argue with your point at all.  I was simply trying to say that while martial arts can be very useful in self defense, the concept of "self-defense" goes well beyond a form of actual fighting/combat.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I like to sit where I can see the entrance and the whole room so I can see any hot chicks that come in...



No.

So they have the pleasure of seeing you.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> No.
> 
> So they have the pleasure of seeing you.



I see you are aware of my status as an international sex symbol.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I wouldn't argue with your point at all.  I was simply trying to say that while martial arts can be very useful in self defense, the concept of "self-defense" goes well beyond a form of actual fighting/combat.



I have developed an issue with training in general that takes my money and tells me the blatantly obvious. Yes I am looking at you colour codes.

I did a customer service course once where I was told making personal calls and ignoring customers was the wrong thing to do. I mean how did I get through life not knowing that?

How this relates is when we get commentry like doing martial arts you really should be more than some sort of kill monster. And for some reason we all need training in this. If we don't receive training in how to just be a normal person then martial arts isn't really doing its job.


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> I wouldn't argue with your point at all.  I was simply trying to say that while martial arts can be very useful in self defense, the concept of "self-defense" goes well beyond a form of actual fighting/combat.


do you have a periscopes so you can look round corners


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> do you have a periscopes so you can look round corners



you use the reflective surface of a window.

Your spy craft needs work.

It is why ATMs have little mirrors.


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> you use the reflective surface of a window.
> 
> Your spy craft needs work.
> 
> It is why ATMs have little mirrors.


I don't think they have mirrors here, I've never noticed them. All the cash machines in Manchester have a beggar sat next to them, he watches out for you for a pound


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> I don't think they have mirrors here, I've never noticed them. All the cash machines in Manchester have a beggar sat next to them, he watches out for you for a pound



Glue a mirror to his head.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

by the way. you do need to know and check for skimming devices. So here you go.

Police give tips on detecting ATM skimming devices


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Glue a mirror to his head.


it would be easier to take a periscope,


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> no out environment is what we make, it or in your case what you imagine it to be


What does this even mean.  And what do you assume that I'm imagining?


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> by the way. you do need to know and check for skimming devices. So here you go.
> 
> Police give tips on detecting ATM skimming devices


lol.. I look out for those things as well along with who is in the area prior to me going to the ATM machine.  I also look around while I'm at the ATM.  The bad thing about the ATM machines is that it forces the person to turn their back to their environment and then requires them to focus on the ATM machine.  Most people focus so much on the ATM that they are clueless to what is around them.  I look around to break that focus and to keep alert to anyone that may try to target me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It's reasonable common sense actually and should be taken up again with the current terrorist threats. it's not paranoia. it becomes a habit in the same way you lock your doors before leaving home, don't leave your car keys in the ignition etc. A precaution nothing else.


  it's not a difficult thing to do either.  It's a small change in behavior compared to other things that help people stay safe.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if you go to a restaurant and they give you a table in the middle with no wall, the poor guy would have a serious break down,,,, OH NO there are people behind me PANIC


  You still face the entrance. and not put your back to the entrance.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2017)

It's kinda like protecting yourself from tigers.

You wear a mask of a persons face on the back of you head so would be attackers see you and wonder why is that guy standing with his back to the ATM


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> It's kinda like protecting yourself from tigers.
> 
> You wear a mask of a persons face on the back of you head so would be attackers see you and wonder why is that guy standing with his back to the ATM


 I think the mask on the back of the head was legit.  I read a study on it somewhere, where it reduced the number of tiger attacks.  
Big cats creep like criminals.  If they see you watching them then they don't attack or it takes them longer to attack.  









But if you can't watch your back then find someone who can.  I can tell you one person that won't be robbed at the ATM


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> What does this even mean.  And what do you assume that I'm imagining?


a world where you think the only way to stay safe is to sit so you can watch the door. That's what you are imagine


----------



## jobo (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> You still face the entrance. and not put your back to the entrance.


what if the bad guy comes in through the kitchen, you would feel stupid then.

what if he is already in there, waiting in the toilet to attack while you have a wiz, do you get your friend to go to the john with you


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if he is already in there, waiting in the toilet to attack while you have a wiz, do you get your friend to go to the john with you



I stand with my back against the wall and pee across the room into the urinal....sure I get some strange looks, but nobody is sneaking up on me.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> a world where you think the only way to stay safe is to sit so you can watch the door. That's what you are imagine


Show me where I made that statement.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> What does this even mean.  And what do you assume that I'm imagining?



That your awarness and situational skillz are preventing you from being attacked.

Rather than you were just not being attacked anyway.

I have met a few people who have argued this. Bouncing is a big one for it. Every now and then I will get a security guard who will tell me how slik their deescalation skills are because they have never had to fight.

Of course working where they couldn't have started on if they tried had nothing to do with it.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if the bad guy comes in through the kitchen, you would feel stupid then.
> 
> what if he is already in there, waiting in the toilet to attack while you have a wiz, do you get your friend to go to the john with you


again what the F are you talking about?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I stand with my back against the wall and pee across the room into the urinal....sure I get some strange looks, but nobody is sneaking up on me.



Use the shiny bit of the urinal as an ATM mirror. Spycraft man.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I stand with my back against the wall and pee across the room into the urinal....sure I get some strange looks, but nobody is sneaking up on me.


I like your answer lol.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 2, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if the bad guy comes in through the kitchen, you would feel stupid then.
> 
> what if he is already in there, waiting in the toilet to attack while you have a wiz, do you get your friend to go to the john with you



 I just wait untill their back is turned.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 2, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Use the shiny bit of the urinal as an ATM mirror. Spycraft man.



Yeah but nothing says "don't mess with this guy" like peeing across the room into a urinal.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 2, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Yeah but nothing says "don't mess with this guy" like peeing across the room into a urinal.


First name "R" last name "Kelly"


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I don't think they have mirrors here, I've never noticed them. All the cash machines in Manchester have a beggar sat next to them, he watches out for you for a pound



Don't you think then it's time you got a proper job rather than just sitting around cash machines waiting for a hand out? I can't imagine having such a boring and poor paying occupation.


----------



## Touch Of Death (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if the bad guy comes in through the kitchen, you would feel stupid then.
> 
> what if he is already in there, waiting in the toilet to attack while you have a wiz, do you get your friend to go to the john with you


You can, "What if?", anything to death, but chances are you are better off, if you are aware of the kind of freaks that are walking in the door, and not worrying about a disgruntled cook; that happens too, but just, not as often.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

From Greater Manchester Police...before the arena bombing and quite a while after the IRA bombing of Manchester. They call for public *vigilance *not panic or paranoia, vigilance, noticing what is unusual. As I said common sense. Calls for public vigilance in fight against terrorism


You can ignore all things like this because you think you are too cool for school and you're a 'hardman' but the truth is vigilance does work. You are vigilant when you drive, when you cross the road when you lock your house up, when you make sure your appliances are switched off, you buy care seat etc for your children when they travel in cars, you use seat belts etc etc why would you do all that and not be careful of your personal security when you are out and about?

Now waiting for by now customary rant about the police, mental illness and people in general.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> weight classes are a lie.


I've only trained at relatively small clubs where you train with whoever is there, but I imagine that in larger clubs people tend to partner off with people their own size/sex?  Not exclusively of course but more often than not I would imagine?


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I can walk about with out being worried about my safety and don't have to take any nonsense of idiots.​


I imagine dealing with your own idiocy is a full time job, so we can appreciate why you don't have time for the idiocy of others as well.


----------



## Buka (Jul 3, 2017)

It has been my experience that it depends -  on the instructor.  In a larger school, there's an opportunity to  mix people with anyone and everyone, especially those that do not match up against each other physically, emotionally, mentally, whatever. Which, to me, is what Martial Arts is all about.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Agreed fighting isn't a psychology at all. A fight is mainly 2 idiots who argue over something stupid or 1 idiot trying to hurt someone else. Fighting isn't a science it's a game of luck its whoever lands the best punch or kick or whatever first. Skill really doesn't play much into fights. It helps but it's no deal breaker


If that were true, MMA, boxing, Judo, etc. wouldn't be predictable. Anyone could step in the ring with anyone, and anything could happen. Skill does have a huge overriding effect in a fight (not necessarily in an attack), though luck can swing that the other way in a small percentage of cases.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I would have agreed with you up til two weeks ago....when I was caught right in the jewels with a full power switch kick with no groin protection.....It was horrible!


It fully depends on the kick, doesn't it? I've taken shots to the groin that slowed me down, and I've taken shots that put me down. Most of us have seen footage of MMA fights where someone took a HARD kick, and about a second later they are on the ground, completely done.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> jeez, you have a severe case of paranoia if you wont sit down with out your back to the wall, im suprised you make it out of your own front door.


Appeal to Extremes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> combat is about the ability to hurt people, preferably more than they hurt you. That's it, no pycobabble. If someone hits you you beat them up, if you have some phycolocal weakness' that prevents you from doing that, then you simply can't defend yourself and should really give up MA and do knitting


So, your base assertion is that one can either fight or cannot. And no amount of training can change that fact?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> ..
> 
> 
> If your career made headlines like all the ones on this simple Google search,
> ...


Agreed. This is one of the practices that becomes ingrained and protects us from the natural inclination toward Cooper's "condition white". A few easy habits like this give us better awareness, even in times when we're not really paying attention.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what if you go to a restaurant and they give you a table in the middle with no wall, the poor guy would have a serious break down,,,, OH NO there are people behind me PANIC


Appeal to Extremes.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> I have developed an issue with training in general that takes my money and tells me the blatantly obvious. Yes I am looking at you colour codes.
> 
> I did a customer service course once where I was told making personal calls and ignoring customers was the wrong thing to do. I mean how did I get through life not knowing that?
> 
> How this relates is when we get commentry like doing martial arts you really should be more than some sort of kill monster. And for some reason we all need training in this. If we don't receive training in how to just be a normal person then martial arts isn't really doing its job.


Those things are taught because, somehow, some people haven't learned them. I've taught variations of Cooper's color codes, and had people ask actual questions about them - indicating they hadn't thought of awareness that way (if at all) before. I've also taught customer service, and had people ask questions about things I consider very rudimentary and common-sense.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I've only trained at relatively small clubs where you train with whoever is there, but I imagine that in larger clubs people tend to partner off with people their own size/sex?  Not exclusively of course but more often than not I would imagine?



Not really.

Meisha tate at 61kg rolled with my 80kg coach at the ufc.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I've only trained at relatively small clubs where you train with whoever is there, but I imagine that in larger clubs people tend to partner off with people their own size/sex?  Not exclusively of course but more often than not I would imagine?


The same tends to happen in self-defense oriented schools, too. The big folks want to practice against big folks. Everyone* prefers to learn against their own size and skill level.

*EDIT: "Pretty much everyone..."


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

not my coach here but meisha just girl handling a bunch of dudes somewhere.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> The same tends to happen in self-defense oriented schools, too. The big folks want to practice against big folks. Everyone* prefers to learn against their own size and skill level.
> 
> *EDIT: "Pretty much everyone..."


Which is why I believe my instructor will purposefully mis-match people, not only by size but experience, so he will make the 6'3" level 6 practice with the 5'6" level 2.  The level 2 learns obviously from the bigger more experienced person but the level 6 learns as well.  Applying techniques to someone smaller can add complications and the lack of experience can result in "surprises" because they are more apt to do something unexpected and "outside" what is taught in the school.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Which is why I believe my instructor will purposefully mis-match people, not only by size but experience, so he will make the 6'3" level 6 practice with the 5'6" level 2.  The level 2 learns obviously from the bigger more experienced person but the level 6 learns as well.  Applying techniques to someone smaller can add complications and the lack of experience can result in "surprises" because they are more apt to do something unexpected and "outside" what is taught in the school.



We rotate everyone as well.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> So, your base assertion is that one can either fight or cannot. And no amount of training can change that fact?


hmm, you can teach people the mechanics of fighting, you cant teach them to be a fighter, its an intrinsic personality trait, in ether combat or life generaly.

we all have a tenancy to either run fight or freeze. And if your a runner or,a freezer, then you are really stuck with that .


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, you can teach people the mechanics of fighting, you cant teach them to be a fighter, its an intrinsic personality trait, in ether combat or life generaly.
> 
> we all have a tenancy to either run fight or freeze. And if your a runner or,a freezer, then you are really stuck with that .



Nope.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Appeal to Extremes.


its the same extreme position that the guy is putting forward as being sensible,only sit with your back to a,wall, so no one can come up unnoticed and WATCH the door. That is pretty extreme behaviour


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Which is why I believe my instructor will purposefully mis-match people, not only by size but experience, so he will make the 6'3" level 6 practice with the 5'6" level 2.  The level 2 learns obviously from the bigger more experienced person but the level 6 learns as well.  Applying techniques to someone smaller can add complications and the lack of experience can result in "surprises" because they are more apt to do something unexpected and "outside" what is taught in the school.


Agreed. I purposely pair people sometimes with a size/skill match, and sometimes with a size/skill mismatch. It's important to get both. I imagine the same experiential advantages apply for MMA training, as well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> hmm, you can teach people the mechanics of fighting, you cant teach them to be a fighter, its an intrinsic personality trait, in ether combat or life generaly.
> 
> we all have a tenancy to either run fight or freeze. And if your a runner or,a freezer, then you are really stuck with that .


Absurd. I've seen people progress from being afraid to punch someone, to being sufficiently aggressive to make them a fun opponent in sparring (meaning they became unpredictable and willing to go on the attack). In short, I've seen people go from "freezer" to "fighter".


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> its the same extreme position that the guy is putting forward as being sensible,only sit with your back to a,wall, so no one can come up unnoticed and WATCH the door. That is pretty extreme behaviour


Except that you are presenting the extreme of his position, to make it sound absurd. Hence, the link.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Nope.


what you think you can changes people personality, by a couple of hours a week training


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what you think you can changes people personality, by a couple of hours a week training


What? You think reactions are an immutable part of personality? (Careful - you're getting into Psychology here. You said earlier that wasn't a component in the discussion.)


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Absurd. I've seen people progress from being afraid to punch someone, to being sufficiently aggressive to make them a fun opponent in sparring (meaning they became unpredictable and willing to go on the attack). In short, I've seen people go from "freezer" to "fighter".


but there is no real danger in the dojo, you can condition them to that environment, but when some big guy wants to fight them they are all, ooo, no, run away


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> What? You think reactions are an immutable part of personality? (Careful - you're getting into Psychology here. You said earlier that wasn't a component in the discussion.)


no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> but there is no real danger in the dojo, you can condition them to that environment, but when some big guy wants to fight them they are all, ooo, no, run away


And your evidence of this is what, precisely?


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.


in fact not backing down when you strongly suspect your going to get beaten up is a better test of if you have,warrior spirit or not

a group of blokes were pushing my sister around,it was 7 to one against me, but I attacked I put three down before they got me


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no i think an ability to stand your ground and decided you are going to beat the guy to a pulp rather than back down is intrinsic.


Which is another way of saying you think this is an immutable part of personality. While this is harder to train away for some folks (and there may even be a small population for whom it is functionally impossible to retrain), the military has made a business of retraining this reaction, with a reasonable level of success. We have a rather large body of evidence that suggests this reaction can, in fact, be changed. There's also evidence that an individual's response is not consistent across all situations - people who are usually "retreaters" become "attackers" under the right circumstances.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And your evidence of this is what, precisely?


that's what all the training is about isn't it, run away if you can,


gpseymour said:


> Except that you are presenting the extreme of his position, to make it sound absurd. Hence, the link.


it is absurd, I don't have to,skit it to make it more so


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what you think you can change people personality, by a couple of hours a week training



We take people off the street and throw them in the ring in 12 weeks. You make them exeed their own expectations.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Which is another way of saying you think this is an immutable part of personality. While this is harder to train away for some folks (and there may even be a small population for whom it is functionally impossible to retrain), the military has made a business of retraining this reaction, with a reasonable level of success. We have a rather large body of evidence that suggests this reaction can, in fact, be changed. There's also evidence that an individual's response is not consistent across all situations - people who are usually "retreaters" become "attackers" under the right circumstances.


the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.

they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We take people off the street and throw them in the ring in 12 weeks. You make them exeed their own expectations.


im not doubting that, but the people who show up at an mma gym arnt exactly representative of the general population.

or are you saying you could do that with absolutely anyone


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's what all the training is about isn't it, run away if you can,


And how, precisely, is that evidence that one cannot change their reactions, that they will still run away (or, presumably, freeze) outside the dojo? You're purposely evading the question posed.



> it is absurd, I don't have to,skit it to make it more so


And, yet, you pushed it to something well beyond what was stated. Either you don't understand what was said, or you know it's not absurd, so you create an absurd strawman to argue against. Either way, you're not doing well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.
> 
> they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,


You really think they do (and always have) eliminated on that basis? What's your evidence?


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And how, precisely, is that evidence that one cannot change their reactions, that they will still run away (or, presumably, freeze) outside the dojo? You're purposely evading the question posed.
> 
> 
> And, yet, you pushed it to something well beyond what was stated. Either you don't understand what was said, or you know it's not absurd, so you create an absurd strawman to argue against. Either way, you're not doing well.


your arguing you can train them to not freeze /run away, when most of the training seems to be about running away. The,army don't train their troops to run away.they teach them to stand and fight to the last man, to die rather than run,away.
it doesn't really match what what you are,doing


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> the army have a selection process where they get rid of all the,scardy cats. If fact its unlikely that scardy cats would want to join in the first place.
> 
> they do however it seems turn up at Ma schools,



Oh dear me no, ( even though I don't know what a 'scardy cat is) being afraid is important, it's what keeps us alive. The military don't want people who will rush in like idiots because they aren't afraid so end up getting everyone killed.
Show me someone who isn't scared of something and I'll show you someone who is a complete liar or a psychopath, possibly both.
brave people are those who will take action despite fear and there's a lot of people just like that. The military give people the tools to handle their fear and turn it into something they can use.
Obviously you as someone who without knowing anything about the military or the police will dispute this but your opinion holds no water because that's all it is an opinion. The facts speak for themselves.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You really think they do (and always have) eliminated on that basis? What's your evidence?


on the basis that you get interviewed to assess your personality type and then if your not up to it they throw you out cutting or after basic training.
people who ae,scared of fighting, bang noises and tanks don't get very far


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> your arguing you can train them to not freeze /run away, when most of the training seems to be about running away. The,army don't train their troops to run away.they teach them to stand and fight to the last man, to die rather than run,away.
> it doesn't really match what what you are,doing



I take it you have never heard the expression 'strategic withdrawal'. what nonesen of course troops are taught to withdraw, what is the point of 'fighting to the last man' if you don't have to? 7 Brilliant Military Retreats - History Lists


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> on the basis that you get interviewed to assess your personality type and then if your not up to it they throw you out cutting or after basic training.



Nope. Getting yourself ready - British Army Website


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh dear me no, ( even though I don't know what a 'scardy cat is) being afraid is important, it's what keeps us alive. The military don't want people who will rush in like idiots because they aren't afraid so end up getting everyone killed.
> Show me someone who isn't scared of something and I'll show you someone who is a complete liar or a psychopath, possibly both.
> brave people are those who will take action despite fear and there's a lot of people just like that. The military give people the tools to handle their fear and turn it into something they can use.
> Obviously you as someone who without knowing anything about the military or the police will dispute this but your opinion holds no water because that's all it is an opinion. The facts speak for themselves.


I wouldn't describe the average,soldier as brave,


Tez3 said:


> I take it you have never heard the expression 'strategic withdrawal'. what nonesen of course troops are taught to withdraw, what is the point of 'fighting to the last man' if you don't have to? 7 Brilliant Military Retreats - History Lists


they are taught to with draw on command, their whole training is to remove free will so they only follow orders. Just running,away as people are,shooting at you is frowned upon.
unless its the,Dutch army, then pretty much anything goes


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Nope. Getting yourself ready - British Army Website


what are you saying they don't have an interview process to weed out the unsuitable ones.

Mr jones, are you prepared o get,sent to a far away land, where people will try to kill you,?
no i just want to learn a trade and get a HGV. I'm not having people,shoot at me
sorry Mr jones your not really what we are looking for


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what are you saying they don't have an interview process to weed out the unsuitable ones.
> 
> Mr jones, are you prepared o get,sent to a far away land, where people will try to kill you,?
> no i just want to learn a trade and get a HGV. I'm not having people,shoot at me
> sorry Mr jones your not really what we are looking for



I refer you to my previous post about literacy. When you can actually understand what people are saying and post a reasoned reply, you will no longer be a troll.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> we all have a tenancy to either run fight or freeze. And if your a runner or,a freezer, then you are really stuck with that .


I can't agree with that at all.  Once you have children it changes both you, and what you become capable of if called to protect them.  

I would have frozen years ago, as getting myself into the right frame of mind would have been almost impossible.  Now it's much easier.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> I can't agree with that at all.  Once you have children it changes both you, and what you become capable of if called to protect them.


so just with children involved then, otherwise I'm correct?


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2017)

Lol

This is just Jobo internet tough guy talk.

"Some people are fighters others are wimps....I'm a tough guy and a fighter, blah, blah, blah."


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> a group of blokes were pushing my sister around,it was 7 to one against me, but I attacked I put three down before they got me


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> your arguing you can train them to not freeze /run away, when most of the training seems to be about running away. The,army don't train their troops to run away.they teach them to stand and fight to the last man, to die rather than run,away.
> it doesn't really match what what you are,doing


And where, exactly, have you seen me say I train people how to run away? Once again, you're not doing well.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> on the basis that you get interviewed to assess your personality type and then if your not up to it they throw you out cutting or after basic training.
> people who ae,scared of fighting, bang noises and tanks don't get very far


You do know they train people to deal with those noises, right?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I wouldn't describe the average,soldier as brave,





jobo said:


> they are taught to with draw on command, their whole training is to remove free will so they only follow orders. Just running,away as people are,shooting at you is frowned upon.
> unless its the,Dutch army, then pretty much anything goes



Well if ignorance is bliss you must be the happiest man here.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> what are you saying they don't have an interview process to weed out the unsuitable ones.
> 
> Mr jones, are you prepared o get,sent to a far away land, where people will try to kill you,?
> no i just want to learn a trade and get a HGV. I'm not having people,shoot at me
> sorry Mr jones your not really what we are looking for


Actually, they (the US military) recruit quite a number of college-aged kids on just that premise: come and learn skills that will be useful in your career after the military. When I was recruited by the Marines (I didn't follow through, because I wanted to study a course they couldn't guarantee me), they were trying to get me in during the interview, not trying to weed me out. Most (I've been told) do psych profiles, but that's not for weeding out the folks you suppose will wet themselves. That's for weeding out the folks who might go maniac, so I've been told.


----------



## Steve (Jul 3, 2017)

I've taken many shots to the groin over the years.  My experience is that it's really unpredictable.  I've taken hard shots that didn't hurt at all, and also some hard shots that have almost made me throw up.  But the same is true for a slight tap.  Sometimes, it's incidental and doesn't hurt at all.  But strangely, sometimes, you barely get hit and it's this kind of slow roll pain that just seems to build up over about a minute.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's for weeding out the folks who might go maniac, so I've been told.



As well as those that want to learn military skills and take them elsewhere when they have finished their time. Here that would be into a Northern Irish paramilitary group mostly or perhaps to the Middle East ( not ISIS in particular, many have a mind to become mercenaries having watched too many films).  people are very aware what joining the military means these days, and in case they don't know it's laid out quit plainly to them. The days of squaddies being ignorant louts just looking for a job are long gone if in fact they ever existed. part of the training now involved academic qualifications (one needs a certain standard of education for promotion, a  high number of soldiers at SNCO level have university degrees now, they study through the Open University and with help from the Army Education Service), recruits come out of basic training with national qualifications in computing and literacy skills. They go on to not only do their trade training but also educational.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

Buka said:


> It has been my experience that it depends -  on the instructor.  In a larger school, there's an opportunity to  mix people with anyone and everyone, especially those that do not match up against each other physically, emotionally, mentally, whatever. Which, to me, is what Martial Arts is all about.


I assume that self defense schools welcome size and weight mismatches as this is probably the likely scenario for self defense in the street or bullying. Chances are that in a real fight there will be some size and weight disadvantages.  In combat sports there is an assumption that there will be weight classes.


----------



## mograph (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> no out environment is what we make, it or in your case what you imagine it to be


Now _that_ sounds like Psychobabble.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, they (the US military) recruit quite a number of college-aged kids on just that premise: come and learn skills that will be useful in your career after the military. When I was recruited by the Marines (I didn't follow through, because I wanted to study a course they couldn't guarantee me), they were trying to get me in during the interview, not trying to weed me out. Most (I've been told) do psych profiles, but that's not for weeding out the folks you suppose will wet themselves. That's for weeding out the folks who might go maniac, so I've been told.



Exactly.  You can take someone who is likely to run, break them down and then build them back up into someone who will not run.  That is the entire point of basic training actually.  On the other hand that kind of training will often take someone on the border of uncontrolled violence and push them over that edge.

Also because we don't have any conflicts going on that require 10s of thousands in the field the military can be far more selective in terms of ASFAB scores etc.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly.  You can take someone who is likely to run, break them down and then build them back up
> etc.


other wise known as brain washing


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And where, exactly, have you seen me say I train people how to run away? Once again, you're not doing well.


if you are training them to avoid a fight if possible, then you are training them to run away,  . That's what the other guy said was the first rule of self defence. If your teaching them to stand up tp bullies and muggers and phycos, then good for you


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


>


to be honest, that's really the nub of the issue, I think any self respecting man would attack a gang to protect his sister, that you don't believe someone would do that, suggests that you wouldn't and you want to tar everyone else with the same brush


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

mograph said:


> Now _that_ sounds like Psychobabble.


the guys to scared to go to the toilet on his own in case someone attacks him, that's not phycobabble that a serious condition


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Lol
> 
> This is just Jobo internet tough guy talk.
> 
> "Some people are fighters others are wimps....I'm a tough guy and a fighter, blah, blah, blah."


im not particularly tough,I just stand up for myself and my family.

as a child, about 10 a gang of youths got me and made me kneel down, they said if I would kiss there feet they would let me go, I wouldn't so they kicked me in the face, I still wouldn't so they kicked me and kicked me and kicked me till I past out. Even at that age is was death before dishonour


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> if you are training them to avoid a fight if possible, then you are training them to run away,  . That's what the other guy said was the first rule of self defence. If your teaching them to stand up tp bullies and muggers and phycos, then good for you


Those two principles are not mutually exclusive, though you seem to miss that entirely.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> the guys to scared to go to the toilet on his own in case someone attacks him, that's not phycobabble that a serious condition


Actually, you made that up. You're now arguing against yourself, so far as I can tell.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> im not particularly tough,I just stand up for myself and my family.
> 
> as a child, about 10 a gang of youths got me and made me kneel down, they said if I would kiss there feet they would let me go, I wouldn't so they kicked me in the face, I still wouldn't so they kicked me and kicked me and kicked me till I past out. Even at that age is was death before dishonour


Oh, give me that kind of "dishonor" before death any day. If it's a fight I have a chance of winning (or nothing to lose in it), then I'll fight. Accepting a beating so you aren't embarrassed is foolish, IMO.

(Mind you, there's a good reason not to cave to that kind of crap, but it's not the one you seem to put forth.)


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Oh, give me that kind of "dishonor" before death any day. If it's a fight I have a chance of winning (or nothing to lose in it), then I'll fight. Accepting a beating so you aren't embarrassed is foolish, IMO.
> 
> (Mind you, there's a good reason not to cave to that kind of crap, but it's not the one you seem to put forth.)


that's really the difference between warriors' and wuzzies. You will fight if you think you can win. Il win because I won't be beaten


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Actually, you made that up. You're now arguing against yourself, so far as I can tell.


Why bother? not even worth communicating with anymore.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> to be honest, that's really the nub of the issue, I think any self respecting man would attack a gang to protect his sister, that you don't believe someone would do that, suggests that you wouldn't and you want to tar everyone else with the same brush



It's not that I don't believe someone would do that...it's that I don't believe you did that.

And I also don't feel the need to prove myself to some fake internet tough guy.


----------



## CB Jones (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's really the difference between warriors' and wuzzies. You will fight if you think you can win. Il win because I won't be beaten



Make believe fights in your head are easy to win though.


----------



## Steve (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> im not particularly tough,I just stand up for myself and my family.
> 
> as a child, about 10 a gang of youths got me and made me kneel down, they said if I would kiss there feet they would let me go, I wouldn't so they kicked me in the face, I still wouldn't so they kicked me and kicked me and kicked me till I past out. Even at that age is was death before dishonour


I'm not sure I believe this story, but either way it reminded me of one that happened to me at about the same age.  3rd grade in San Antonio in the 70's was like Lord of the Flies.  We used to all wait at the bus stop in the morning, and a kid who was in the 7th grade would just terrorize us.  He was a real bully, and if you think about the difference in size between an 8 year old and a 12 year old, that will give you some idea of what we were dealing with.  Something he would do a lot is ride his bike around really fast, and then lock his brakes up and skid really close to us.  The key was to not flinch and just hope he didn't actually hit you.  One day, he ran into one of the girls pretty hard.  While he had been tormenting us for months, he hadn't ever actually physically hurt anyone before.  So, that morning, he knocked her back, she landed hard and hit her head.  I lost it and jumped the guy.   I'd had enough.

Long story short, he beat the **** out of me.  Not only that, but as he's got me pinned to the ground, pounding on me, the bus came and everyone, including both the girl who got knocked over and the bus driver, left me there getting pounded.

I learned some lessons that day, but 'death before dishonor' wasn't one of them.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Make believe fights in your head are easy to win though.


i didn't win, I took three out with head butts then the others  got me and roughed me up some before the bouncers intervened . Why would I make up a fight I lost? I've still got a scar over my eye where someone punched me with a big signet ring on.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's really the difference between warriors' and wuzzies. You will fight if you think you can win. Il win because I won't be beaten


Except that you just said, "death before dishonour". That's not even remotely close to "I won't be beaten". You're doing worse at this as you progress.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> i didn't win, I took three out with head butts then the others  got me and roughed me up some before the bouncers intervened . Why would I make up a fight I lost? I've still got a scar over my eye where someone punched me with a big signet ring on.


That's what "I won't be beaten" sounds like? Sounds a lot like "I got beaten".


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's what "I won't be beaten" sounds like? Sounds a lot like "I got beaten".


I was still swinging, but 4 onto one cuts,down your options,a lot. I'm never beaten coz I never give up,.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I was still swinging, but 4 onto one cuts,down your options,a lot. I'm never beaten coz I never give up,.


Yet, you still got beaten, call it what you will.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Yet, you still got beaten, call it what you will.


no, it got stopped, . Thee on, th floor one with a broken nose , Il call that a draw


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> you are training them to avoid a fight if possible, then you are training them to run away, .



Sign, again with the misunderstanding. Soldiers are trained to avoid fighting _when they can't win, _so the training involves a good deal more than just fighting.



jobo said:


> the guys to scared to go to the toilet on his own in case someone attacks him, that's not phycobabble that a serious condition



Meow.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sign, again with the misunderstanding. Soldiers are trained to avoid fighting _when they can't win, _so the training involves a good deal more than just fighting.
> 
> 
> 
> Meow.


I wasn't refering to soldiers in that post


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> I wasn't refering to soldiers in that post



and that makes a difference how? Same principles.


----------



## jobo (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> and that makes a difference how? Same principles.


it makes a difference as I wasn't talking about soldiers


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> im not doubting that, but the people who show up at an mma gym arnt exactly representative of the general population.
> 
> or are you saying you could do that with absolutely anyone



Anyone. I didn't believe it myself either untill we did it.

From guys who try to fight with their eyes closed and their backs turned. To people who at the very least may not win fights but will fight their best untill the fighting is done.

But we can look at guys like jeff horn who took up boxing to protect himself from bullying.
How Jeff Horn from Brisbane became a boxing hero   | Daily Mail Online


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Lol
> 
> This is just Jobo internet tough guy talk.
> 
> "Some people are fighters others are wimps....I'm a tough guy and a fighter, blah, blah, blah."



In his defence it is not an uncommon stance. It is at least in part the idea behind it is the individual not the system.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

Trying a new approach here.  The following quote is a component of self-defense.

"He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight."
- *Sun Tzu*


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Trying a new approach here.  The following quote is a component of self-defense.
> 
> He will win who knows when to fight and when not to fight.
> - *Sun Tzu*



Sun Tzu of course is studied by the modern military. Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS): Leadership Lessons Case Study | Leadership  Case Studies


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 3, 2017)

jobo said:


> it makes a difference as I wasn't talking about soldiers



Of course not, you were talking boiled eggs ( they go lovely with soldiers)


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

This is similar to de-escalation tactics where we say or do thing that makes the person feel uncomfortable about attacking.

"If we do not wish to fight, we can prevent the enemy from engaging us even though the lines of our encampment be merely traced out on the ground. All we need do is to throw something odd and unaccountable in his way."
-*Sun Tzu*


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sun Tzu of course is studied by the modern military. Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS): Leadership Lessons Case Study | Leadership  Case Studies



The Art of War is also studied by business students.....

Six Principles of Sun Tzu & the Art of Business – Sun Tzu Strategies


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Sun Tzu of course is studied by the modern military. Royal Military Academy Sandhurst (RMAS): Leadership Lessons Case Study | Leadership  Case Studies


I thought it was fitting since someone brought up soldiers as not being relevant.  I feel comfortable with this since, one would need to argue with Sun Tzu about the quote lol.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I thought it was fitting since someone brought up soldiers as not being relevant.  I feel comfortable with this since, one would need to argue with Sun Tzu about the quote lol.



No but we will suggest we are the ones interpreting it correctly.


----------



## drop bear (Jul 3, 2017)

Better thought. If fighting strategy is also deescalation and business strategy.

Are we learning these soft skills by learning fighting?


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Better thought. If fighting strategy is also deescalation and business strategy.
> 
> Are we learning these soft skills by learning fighting?


To some extent, I think so. I make an effort to make it more than accidental learning, but there's a definite link between soft skills and what we learn about fighting.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jul 3, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Better thought. If fighting strategy is also deescalation and business strategy.
> 
> Are we learning these soft skills by learning fighting?


Probably. 
There are also arguments or strong disagreements that happen in the work place among employees as well as customers where deescalation skills are a business strategy.  Especially in customer service.


----------



## KenpoMaster805 (Jul 3, 2017)

Self defense is part of the competition know in all martial arts tournament theres UFC is not a comeptititon its a sport and cometition at same time


----------



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 4, 2017)

KenpoMaster805 said:


> Self defense is part of the competition know in all martial arts tournament theres UFC is not a comeptititon its a sport and cometition at same time



What's the difference between a competition and a sport?


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> What's the difference between a competition and a sport?



A sport is codified. a competition is not. If we both go after the same girl it is a competition. But not a sport.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If we both go after the same girl it is a competition.




Probably not the best analogy. There really are rules in this too, you may not know them but the girl definitely does!


----------



## drop bear (Jul 4, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Probably not the best analogy. There really are rules in this too, you may not know them but the girl definitely does!



Yeah. date the bigger duchebag.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2017)

drop bear said:


> A sport is codified. a competition is not. If we both go after the same girl it is a competition. But not a sport.


So, how would you define the difference within a MA context? I've always considered "a competition" (an event) as a part of sport - the thing that competitors train for, whereas "competition" (no article attached) can occur within normal training.


----------



## jobo (Jul 4, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> To some extent, I think so. I make an effort to make it more than accidental learning, but there's a definite link between soft skills and what we learn about fighting.


only from the point of view that's its far easier to de escalate a fight from a position of strength


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 4, 2017)

jobo said:


> only from the point of view that's its far easier to de escalate a fight from a position of strength


That is one part of it. There's more than that - there are many lessons from MA that translate well to other areas of life.


----------



## Juany118 (Jul 10, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That is one part of it. There's more than that - there are many lessons from MA that translate well to other areas of life.



Exactly, such as how to avoid a circumstance where deescalation is needed in the first place, how to flow and adapt to dynamic situations vs trying to, for lack of a better term, pound a square peg into a round hole.  Sometimes I think MAs are essentially an allegory for life itself.


----------



## jobo (Jul 10, 2017)

Juany118 said:


> Exactly, such as how to avoid a circumstance where deescalation is needed in the first place, how to flow and adapt to dynamic situations vs trying to, for lack of a better term, pound a square peg into a round hole.  Sometimes I think MAs are essentially an allegory for life itself.


but there are many lessons from chess or table tennis that translate in to real life as well


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 10, 2017)

"Anything not played with a ball cant be a sport...Soccer isn't a sport because you cant use your hands, Tap dancing is not a sport ...i rest my case. some people think swimming is a sport, swimming is a way to keep from drowning, not a sport.  these are my rules and i make them up"
George Carlin


----------



## drop bear (Jul 10, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> "Anything not played with a ball cant be a sport...Soccer isn't a sport because you cant use your hands, Tap dancing is not a sport ...i rest my case. some people think swimming is a sport, swimming is a way to keep from drowning, not a sport.  these are my rules and i make them up"
> George Carlin



pool is not a sport.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 10, 2017)

jobo said:


> but there are many lessons from chess or table tennis that translate in to real life as well


Why is that a "but". I think that's an "and". There are, in fact, some pretty good lessons that can be taken from chess, other board games, sports, cards, pretty much anything can have a lesson for other areas of life if we bother to look for it. Martial Arts seems to have a pretty large number of them, some with pretty direct application (lessons about teaching, negotiating, developing discipline, overcoming obstacles, working with others, etc.).


----------



## Steve (Jul 10, 2017)

I think some martial arts teach some dubious lessons, as well.  Let's not get carried away.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Why is that a "but". I think that's an "and". There are, in fact, some pretty good lessons that can be taken from chess, other board games, sports, cards, pretty much anything can have a lesson for other areas of life if we bother to look for it. Martial Arts seems to have a pretty large number of them, some with pretty direct application (lessons about teaching, negotiating, developing discipline, overcoming obstacles, working with others, etc.).


because people are holding UP MAas particularly valuable in life skills, and its no better or worse than many other pass times, games or sports

if I had got my kid involved in soccer and chess, id be pretty happy with that and wouldn't feel they were missing out on something highly important if they weren't doing ma


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> its no better or worse than many other pass times, games or sports



Considerably better than many pastimes and sports though. Hare coursing is considered as sport as is cock fighting. Some people's pastimes are thieving, drug taking and twocing ( 'taking without owners consent...meaning nicking a car) all quite prevalent pastimes among young people in a lot of areas as is gang membership.


----------



## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Considerably better than many pastimes and sports though. Hare coursing is considered as sport as is cock fighting. Some people's pastimes are thieving, drug taking and twocing ( 'taking without owners consent...meaning nicking a car) all quite prevalent pastimes among young people in a lot of areas as is gang membership.


that's a bit of a daft argument, im hardly going to sign a 7 yo up to a twocing club, I was thinking about past times that were at least vaguely legal and didn't involve the ownership of dogs or chickens.


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> that's a bit of a daft argument, im hardly going to sign a 7 yo up to a twocing club, I was thinking about past times that were at least vaguely legal and didn't involve the ownership of dogs or chickens.



You obviously don't live in the country where all those pastimes are still very prevalent ( more so than martial arts which are 'city' pursuits) and actually involve young children.
Lincolnshire hare coursing police make arrests - BBC News


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You obviously don't live in the country where all those pastimes are still very prevalent ( more so than martial arts which are 'city' pursuits) and actually involve young children.
> Lincolnshire hare coursing police make arrests - BBC News


what point are you trying to make, that MA is better for you than cock fighting, yes it is, but so is,stamp collecting, darts and monopoly'

just posting up unpleasant and mostly illegal past times makes no sense in the context of this discusion


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> what point are you trying to make, that MA is better for you than cock fighting, yes it is, but so is,stamp collecting, darts and monopoly'
> 
> just posting up unpleasant and mostly illegal past times makes no sense in the context of this discusion



Past times? No, it's not 'past times' it's modern day. See what I did there? You post stuff up and get all puffed up because you don't understand and dislike being answered back. Your post was nonsense, just arguments against posts made by people here for the sake of arguments. Perhaps you could just try accepting that other people here have opinions every bit as valid as yours rather than bicker with them.


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## jobo (Jul 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Past times? No, it's not 'past times' it's modern day. See what I did there? You post stuff up and get all puffed up because you don't understand and dislike being answered back. Your post was nonsense, just arguments against posts made by people here for the sake of arguments. Perhaps you could just try accepting that other people here have opinions every bit as valid as yours rather than bicker with them.


??????///))))???????//??//


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2017)

jobo said:


> ??????///))))???????//??//



Taking your spelling that bit too far don't you think?


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## Touch Of Death (Jul 11, 2017)

I thought it was, Pass Times.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> because people are holding UP MAas particularly valuable in life skills, and its no better or worse than many other pass times, games or sports
> 
> if I had got my kid involved in soccer and chess, id be pretty happy with that and wouldn't feel they were missing out on something highly important if they weren't doing ma


That's why I said "and". There are lessons to be learned in a lot of places. I've taught business lessons based on hiking. I've not heard anyone claim that people who don't train MA miss important life lessons that cannot be gained elsewhere.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's why I said "and". There are lessons to be learned in a lot of places. I've taught business lessons based on hiking. I've not heard anyone claim that people who don't train MA miss important life lessons that cannot be gained elsewhere.


no they are doing it by omission, biging up the life lessons from ma, whilst failing to mention the same benefits can be gained from many other things.

its like saying cows are good for keeping the grass down whilst failing to mention horses and lawnmowers'


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> no they are doing it by omission, biging up the life lessons from ma, whilst failing to mention the same benefits can be gained from many other things.
> 
> its like saying cows are good for keeping the grass down whilst failing to mention horses and lawnmowers'


Except that we are on a MA board. That's pretty much what we talk about here. If I go to a hiking meetup, people talk more about hiking and nature there, and some of the life lessons they pick up that way. I don't sit there and think, "What? You think we can't learn that from chess or martial arts??"

Pay attention to the context, before you ascribe motivations to others.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Except that we are on a MA board. That's pretty much what we talk about here. If I go to a hiking meetup, people talk more about hiking and nature there, and some of the life lessons they pick up that way. I don't sit there and think, "What? You think we can't learn that from chess or martial arts??"
> 
> Pay attention to the context, before you ascribe motivations to others.


yes and people who are completely self absorbed with their ma training are making claims to its benefits, that are more or less the same benefits you can get from a hoist of other things. That gives a very biased and polarised view that makes ma,seem more beneficial that it actually is


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## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> its like saying cows are good for keeping the grass down



It's not really because cows and horses aren't any good for getting the grass down, they only eat the top of the grass, what you want is sheep, they eat it all the way down. Bit much when the analogies aren't correct either.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> It's not really because cows and horses aren't any good for getting the grass down, they only eat the top of the grass, what you want is sheep, they eat it all the way down. Bit much when the analogies aren't correct either.


no what you want is a lawn mower.


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## Jenna (Jul 14, 2017)

AmiToben said:


> Read this article and find out about the differences between competitions fighting, martial arts and self defense:
> Martial Arts Misconceptions


Hey, welcome along.  And do not let all this lawn mower talk scare you away! oh, wait.. you have gone already.. oh well, our work at LawnMowerTalk is done here.. least for today


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

Jenna said:


> Hey, welcome along.  And do not let all this lawn mower talk scare you away! oh, wait.. you have gone already.. oh well, our work at LawnMowerTalk is done here.. least for today


he went after the first 5 posts were people,disagreed with his vision that any ma other than the one he did was useless


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes and people who are completely self absorbed with their ma training are making claims to its benefits, that are more or less the same benefits you can get from a hoist of other things. That gives a very biased and polarised view that makes ma,seem more beneficial that it actually is


And what supports your assertion that they are "completely self absorbed with their ma training"? Again you are ascribing attributes not in evidence.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> no what you want is a lawn mower.


Lawnmowers don't produce wool.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Lawnmowers don't produce wool.


nor sheep dropping and don't generaly escape on their own, I suppose the relevant benefits are dependent on if you own a loom or not


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## Jenna (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> he went after the first 5 posts were people,disagreed with his vision that any ma other than the one he did was useless


Pity though.. some time I think people can be singlemindedly set upon winning arguments as opposed to fostering discussion dont you think


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> yes and people who are completely self absorbed with their ma training are making claims to its benefits, that are more or less the same benefits you can get from a hoist of other things. That gives a very biased and polarised view that makes ma,seem more beneficial that it actually is


Actually studies show that people get different benefits from training martial arts that aren't found in other sports and activities.  It's one of the reasons Tai chi is prescribed by doctors to senior citizens to improve mobility, joint health, and to increase bone intensity.  Improvements in joint strength, flexibility, muscle, and over all mobility.   Most sports perform in a specific area which is why many athletes tend to have bodies that reflect the type of activity that they do. 

If a person is training martial arts from a self-defense purpose then that person will get self-defense training which isn't available in other physical activities.  With that said, if a person takes a half-way approach to martial arts then you will be 100% correct.  They would get the same benefits as they would if they were doing something else.  If a person goes into martial arts training with honest effort then Martial Arts training will give them different benefits that they can't get from sports.

I'm not saying that Martial Arts is the best option.  I'm just pointing out that the benefits are different than what we find in other sports.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> nor sheep dropping and don't generaly escape on their own, I suppose the relevant benefits are dependent on if you own a loom or not


Agreed. My point was that it depends what you're looking for. Some folks (like me) will want the lawnmower. I don't have a use for the wool, don't want the clippings, and am pretty sure the sheep would annoy my neighbor's goat.

Some folks in my area have a different set of needs - they have a use for the wool and the droppings, so the sheep make more sense than a lawnmower.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Actually studies show that people get different benefits from training martial arts that aren't found in other sports and activities.  It's one of the reasons Tai chi is prescribed by doctors to senior citizens to improve mobility, joint health, and to increase bone intensity.  Improvements in joint strength, flexibility, muscle, and over all mobility.   Most sports perform in a specific area which is why many athletes tend to have bodies that reflect the type of activity that they do.
> 
> If a person is training martial arts from a self-defense purpose then that person will get self-defense training which isn't available in other physical activities.  With that said, if a person takes a half-way approach to martial arts then you will be 100% correct.  They would get the same benefits as they would if they were doing something else.  If a person goes into martial arts training with honest effort then Martial Arts training will give them different benefits that they can't get from sports.
> 
> I'm not saying that Martial Arts is the best option.  I'm just pointing out that the benefits are different than what we find in other sports.


the discussion was about life,skills rather than fitness.
but id be interested to see any stories that say there are fitness benefits that can ONLY be achieved through ma. Can you post a link?
lots of sports can increase yourself defence abilities, weight training and rugby are the most obvious, but soccer can make you very difficult to kick and running very difficult to catch


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## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> nor sheep dropping and don't generaly escape on their own, I suppose the relevant benefits are dependent on if you own a loom or not



I spin wool which I then knit with, you keep being slightly off with your facts. You need to card, wash, dye if you want to, then spin the wool. You can actually do this with many types of wool and hair, doesn't have to be sheep.


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## jobo (Jul 14, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I spin wool which I then knit with, you keep being slightly off with your facts. You need to card, wash, dye if you want to, then spin the wool. You can actually do this with many types of wool and hair, doesn't have to be sheep.


Il give you a shout if I'm ever so bored that knitting dog hair sounds fun


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## Tez3 (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> Il give you a shout if I'm ever so bored that knitting dog hair sounds fun


BBC NEWS | UK | England | Tyne | Pair dress in 'dead dog' jumpers

Bear in mind though they are Geordies.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 14, 2017)

jobo said:


> the discussion was about life,skills rather than fitness.
> but id be interested to see any stories that say there are fitness benefits that can ONLY be achieved through ma. Can you post a link?
> lots of sports can increase yourself defence abilities, weight training and rugby are the most obvious, but soccer can make you very difficult to kick and running very difficult to catch


Oh well in terms of life skills then you would be correct about there not being much variation.  The only difference would be cultural in terms of traditional martial arts.  I like traditional martial arts but much of life skill aspect of discipline, honesty, respect, and the sort are things that I've learned through other things in life.  By nature I'm not a rigid person so a martial art with too much formality would be more than I would ever seek outside of a role of duty or career related.  Much of those things I learned from home. Each person will be different of course.  But back to your point. If I wanted to learn respect and good human qualities then I wouldn't choose martial arts.  There are things more entertaining and nourishing that I can do other than Martial Arts.  

You won't find an article that says "ONLY." You will however find articles that recommend a Martial Arts for multiple benefits and not just one.  For example, if you are looking to get rid of stress then Tai Chi is not the ONLY thing that gets rid of stress.   If you are looking to exercise and build balance then Tai Chi is not the ONLY thing that does that.  But if you are looking for one activity that has both then Tai Chi has both benefits.   Below are quotes from the same source below where you can read about more things.

From a personal experience, Tai Chi solved my neck issues where nothing else worked.  I used to have severe neck pain when I lean my head to one side.  It used to feel as if the bone in my neck was grinding against each other.  I had the pain for more than 15 years.  Doctors thought the solution was surgery, Massage Therapist thought the solution was me getting a massage.   I did Tai Chi and the  8 pieces of brocade specifically the one at 5:13 I did a lot.  It fixed my neck issues.  The only other thing that I could think of that might have fixed my neck would be Yoga.  In fairness, it's not a blanket "Go take Tai Chi and get healthier"  If the teacher is a bad teacher then Tai Chi will actually do more harm than good.    I guess it's like a blade, in the hand of a surgeon the blade is health.  In the hand of someone who doesn't know what they are doing, then the blade is going to do more harm than good.  Out of all the Martial Arts systems out there.  Tai Chi is something that needs quality supervision at the beginning.





"
*What the Science Says About the Effectiveness of Tai Chi and Qi Gong*
Research findings suggest that practicing tai chi may improve balance and stability in older people and those with Parkinson’s, reduce pain from knee osteoarthritis, help people cope with fibromyalgia  and back pain,  and promote quality of life and mood in people with heart failure  and cancer. There’s been less research on the effects of qi gong, but some studies suggest it may reduce chronic neck pain (although results are mixed) and pain from fibromyalgia. Qi gong also may help to improve general quality of life.

Both also may offer psychological benefits, such as reducing anxiety. However, differences in how the research on anxiety was conducted make it difficult to draw firm conclusions about this."  source:Tai Chi and Qi Gong: In Depth

"There’s some evidence that practicing tai chi may help people manage pain associated with knee osteoarthritis (a breakdown of cartilage in the knee that allows leg bones to rub together), fibromyalgia (a disorder that causes muscle pain and fatigue), and back pain. Qi gong may offer some benefit for chronic neck pain, but results are mixed."

"
*Knee Osteoarthritis*

Results of a small NCCIH-funded clinical trial involving 40 participants with knee osteoarthritis suggested that practicing tai chi reduced pain and improved function better than an education and stretching program.
An analysis of seven small and moderately-sized clinical studies concluded that a 12-week course of tai chi reduced pain and improved function in people with this condition."



jobo said:


> lots of sports can increase yourself defence abilities, weight training and rugby are the most obvious, but soccer can make you very difficult to kick and running very difficult to catch


Those things may increase strength and speed, but they do not train how to defend against a punch, a kick, or how to read the intent that is common in the street. In sports the athletes just go for what they know.  The sport itself does not train elements of self-defense.





In some cases you'll see professional football players taking a martial art to help them be a better football player. I think you'll like this one article because it shows how it's trained. source: How Martial Arts Training is Making Elite NFL Pass Rushers Unstoppable
http://www.stack.com/a/how-martial-arts-training-is-making-elite-nfl-pass-rushers-unstoppable
Clevland Browns Hire Martial Arts Expert source: The Cleveland Browns Have Hired a Martial Arts Expert as a Strength and Conditioning Coach
I would love to have a job like this.


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