# Is this forum a hotbed of WC heresy?



## geezer (Mar 2, 2017)

I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.

The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other  branches and systems.

Another thing ...if you are still under the tutelage of a traditional sifu, he might not approve of you hanging out and sharing or debating his teaching. Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.

So, that leaves us with fewer "devotees" and a lot more "seekers". I know that describes me. I do belong to a VT assn. -- but I live far from the HQ and I don't think they know how much I post here. They have their own little organization forum and would like me to post there, but I don't. Except regarding our _Escrima_ curriculum since I'm in charge of that. Otherwise, I think my lines of inquiry might ruffle some feathers. So here I am. How about the rest of you?


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## KPM (Mar 2, 2017)

I think you described me pretty accurately as well!


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## Danny T (Mar 2, 2017)

My Chinese sifu is open. In his organization to become a full instructor you are required to have high level training in at least two other training methods. Not to have more skill but to have more knowledge of the martial arts and to understand how to use your wc skills against other methods...which of course gives us more skills and I believe makes our wc far more practical.


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## Headhunter (Mar 2, 2017)

Why's that a disturbing trend? People going off and doing their own thing and finding out their own answers


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## Callen (Mar 2, 2017)

Interesting perspective.

This sounds more like an issue of finding a good Sifu or coach that promotes the journey of self-discovery, guidance and proper development as a WC practitioner. Anyone that is looking for a Sifu with all the answers will only become disappointed. The issue lies within the student at that point, not the source.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2017)

It's an interesting perspective and it wouldn't have occurred to me, but I can think of a few examples that support this position. 

For me, I've not had a falling out with my SiFu. Though I run my own club (his idea), I still train with him every week and talk with him several times a week. I teach Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun un-apologetically, as it was taught to me. I don't need or attempt to convert anyone. I'm in fact interested in learning about how other lineages train and what they think, though I'm very proud and confident in ours.

The WC community has some unique arch-types:


JKD/Jun Fan. People claim Wing Chun who didn't learn it traditionally. It doesn't offend me, but I find it fairly impossible to converse about WC with people who have this perspective. I think that JKD/JF can be a really good way to train and I have no doubt that it can develop some good fighters, but it is not nearly as closely related to what I understand and believe about Wing Chun as people on the other side of that discussion usually think it is. Let's just call it a communication gap that I have stopped trying to solve on the internet. I might have better luck if it was a personal relationship in the real world. I will extend this archetype to any MMA type training that claims some aspect of WC training or techniques in what they do.

Lineage faithfuls. I think there is more than one good and true and legitimate Wing Chun lineage. I believe that mine is one of them and I'm very proud of it, but I don't make claims about it beyond that and I've never heard Duncan make statements like that either, so I doubt he would approve of his name being associated with that mess. That said, the lineages that do make those claims, in my eyes, tend to have less legitimacy than those that keep to themselves. What I see on YouTube does not really look like what we do. Why? Because anyone can put stuff on YouTube and claim whatever they want about it. I rarely see someone I would seek out to train with because I respect them posting on YouTube. I've got zero public content like that and I don't think that anyone above me in my lineage would approve if I did. For an entire generation, YouTube and UFC are the only source of truth in the world. It's okay, I just don't have a lot to talk about with those people.

People start in Wing Chun and then cross train. Nothing especially wrong with that, but after nearly 2 decades of Wing Chun, I'm still learning things, connecting things, developing. So, people who started "cross training" 1 or 2 years in, I think they miss a lot of that development, which means, their own system may not really make all that much sense to them. When someone talks about "using only the stuff that works" my first thought it Master Ken and my second is "how do they know what works if they haven't given it time?" I learned taan sao my first month of Wing Chun, I felt like I understood it maybe 5 years later. I get that there are faster ways to learn to fight and I don't fault anyone chosing them, but I'm glad I didn't "throw out" taan sao that first year...or 6 months, because it's something that I can use very effectively now. Again, no judgement, but it's hard to have really good dialogue on-line with people who see that point differently and I don't feel the need to proselytize. 
I'm usually met with "how do you know if you haven't..." I trained in a variety of things for about 15 years PRIOR to Wing Chun and I've fought both for sport and for...I don't know, being an idiot...so someone can choose to believe that I lack perspective and that I'm a larper, but I won't every concede that point, so it's better to just avoid those debates.

I will say that, as another forum member accurately remarked to me, it is a characteristic of the Duncan Leung pai to be pretty private about what we do, certainly in a public forum like this. I keep a watch on myself to balance being open in my conversations with putting what I've received out more publicly than intended. 

That difficult part is balancing contributing to a community like this, but consistently walking away from a lot of fruitless debates and exercising the willpower to leave a lot of things that I consider inaccurate uncorrected.  I have learned things here and started some good relationships this way that I think will make me a better martial artist. 

So, geezer, I think I'm an exception to your observation, which may not be totally without merit. I suggest that there are others, but they're just not as likely to be mixing it up in these debates.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.


 I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part.  That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun."  From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free.  The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment.  It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.

The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part.  That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun."  From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free.  The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment.  It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.
> 
> The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.



I purchase music all the time, because I value and respect what it takes to produce it.

There may be some truth to what you say, but it's only one piece of the puzzle. The bigger issue is having 1st year students representing your system on YouTube or engaging in an endless arguement about your system with a 12 year old who watches UFC on TV and can "prove that what you do doesn't work."


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> The bigger issue is having 1st year students representing your system on YouTube or engaging in an endless arguement about your system with a 12 year old who watches UFC on TV and can "prove that what you do doesn't work."


Maybe.  If that's the case then why is it a big issue for WC and not as big of an issue for other Chinese martial art systems.  Is it because of the popularity of WC or how it's portrayed in the movies?


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## wckf92 (Mar 2, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> It's an interesting perspective and it wouldn't have occurred to me, but I can think of a few examples that support this position.
> 
> For me, I've not had a falling out with my SiFu. Though I run my own club (his idea), I still train with him every week and talk with him several times a week. I teach Duncan Leung lineage Wing Chun un-apologetically, as it was taught to me. I don't need or attempt to convert anyone. I'm in fact interested in learning about how other lineages train and what they think, though I'm very proud and confident in ours.
> 
> ...



Good post


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## Vajramusti (Mar 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.
> .
> 
> Another thing ...if you are still under the tutelage of a traditional sifu, he might not approve of you hanging out and sharing or debating his teaching. Most traditional sifus I've run into prefer that their students don't talk too much with outsiders.
> So here I am. How about the rest of you?


---------------------------------------------------------------
I have had and still have
only one wing chun sifu-Augustine Fong. But I don't speak for him(he speaks for himself) but I speak from my knowledge and experience which includes learning from him, his sifu and kung fu brothers, sisters and cousins.

I check into some forums primarily to find out what is happening under the umbrella of wing chun.I am interested in other martial arts- but wing chun is my main art...and I get new insights practically every day.

Geezer originally invited me here and he still is a model forum member.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part.  That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun."  From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free.  The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment.  It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.
> 
> The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.


I don't think that's quite analogous. If someone gives you the MP3 of a song, you have a faithful (if not exact) representation of what you'd get if you purchased it. If someone gives you a video of something from a martial art, you have only a video of what you'd have if you paid for lessons. If someone shares details of their style/training on a forum, you have even less.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> a lot more "seekers".


I know that I'm a "seeker" myself.

When my friend Jimmy Kao (Yip Man's student) taught me those 3 WC forms, I told him that I didn't agree with the WC approach that one only move his arms without moving his body during the beginner training stage.

In the following 2 clips, both show the training of body movement first. The arms movement can then be added in later. I have always believed that moving the body without moving the arms should be taught in the beginner training stage.

It's interested to compare different training methods and not only have faith in one approach. Most of the time, I only care about the best training method. I don't care too much about "style".

Since the

- TKD roundhouse kick training method is better than the long fist roundhouse kick training method, I have replaced my long fist roundhouse kick training method by the TKD roundhouse kick training method.
- MT roundhouse kick training method is better than the TKD roundhouse kick training method, I also have replaced my TKD roundhouse kick training method by the MT roundhouse kick training method.

Later on, if I can find roundhouse kick training method better than MT, I'll keep replacing it too. I like to "seek" the best training method.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think that's quite analogous. If someone gives you the MP3 of a song, you have a faithful (if not exact) representation of what you'd get if you purchased it. If someone gives you a video of something from a martial art, you have only a video of what you'd have if you paid for lessons. If someone shares details of their style/training on a forum, you have even less.


My comment of using the MP3 was solely business related. If someone one gives you an MP3 of  a song then why would you buy it?  What would be the incentive to do so.  From a business perspective martial arts works the same way.  As instructors we provide information and knowledge.

Here's a real life case:  I have a student that take the Jow Ga class, she's passionate about the class and as a result she likes to show her brother what she learned in class including techniques, fighting concepts, and theories, and discussions on human behavior responses.  Her brother doesn't attend the class because in his mind, if he can get this information from her then why go to the school to learn from me.  In his mind he is getting the (exact information) that his sister is getting.  As a result there is no incentive to pay, what's even worse is that he could train under his sister's family package plan.  If he splits the cost 3 ways then it's $20 a month for him.  It doesn't matter what you know as an instructor, about the quality or quantity of the information that potential student is getting online.  If the student feels that they are getting "enough" then that student won't make the investment to actually attend or pay for a class. 

This is a simple case of what potential customers believe that they are receiving for free regardless if the information is complete or if it's accurate.  We have seen a few people even here on the forum who try to juice us for information instead of investing in a class.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> Maybe.  If that's the case then why is it a big issue for WC and not as big of an issue for other Chinese martial art systems.  Is it because of the popularity of WC or how it's portrayed in the movies?



Maybe. I don't see a lot of MMA or any kind of JKD type systems that claim Northern Mantis or Hung Gar as one of the things they are experts on. No one is claiming that Fuzhou Sleeping Crane and Kali are virtually the same system and they have combined the two.

I also don't think most of those systems have the lineage problems that Wing Chun does. In part because their market appeal isn't as big and that did bring out the worst in some people associated with Wing Chun, but also they are smaller and more centrally represented.

I think there are a lot of reasons why Wing Chun politics are what they are. There are still groups within though that aren't after everyone's money and quietly go about their business. I've met a few through this forum and it makes me happy. Generally speaking, those people are not going to be the loudest in the conversation, though.


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## Jsunlx (Mar 2, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.
> 
> The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other  branches and systems.
> 
> ...




Nothing wrong with being a seeker. What's really 'disturbing' is when a certain seeker spends little to no actual time training with a certain Sifu in a particular lineage, moves on to something different, and then turns around and calls themselves an instructor in that lineage.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 2, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I know that I'm a "seeker" myself.
> 
> When my friend Jimmy Kao (Yip Man's student) taught me those 3 WC forms, I told him that I didn't agree with the WC approach that one only move his arms without moving his body during the beginner training stage.
> 
> ...



See, I think that's fine. I think it's great. You've chosen a different path than me and I would never suggest or even think that you were wrong. 

But, you feel compelled and entitled to do it to Wing Chun practitioners all the time. 

Let's add that to the reasons that not everyone who practices and teaches Wing Chun traditionally wants to open themselves up to open forum discussion on their life's work.


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## Eric_H (Mar 2, 2017)

What makes you think I was ever "on the ins?"


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 2, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> My comment of using the MP3 was solely business related. If someone one gives you an MP3 of  a song then why would you buy it?  What would be the incentive to do so.  From a business perspective martial arts works the same way.  As instructors we provide information and knowledge.
> 
> Here's a real life case:  I have a student that take the Jow Ga class, she's passionate about the class and as a result she likes to show her brother what she learned in class including techniques, fighting concepts, and theories, and discussions on human behavior responses.  Her brother doesn't attend the class because in his mind, if he can get this information from her then why go to the school to learn from me.  In his mind he is getting the (exact information) that his sister is getting.  As a result there is no incentive to pay, what's even worse is that he could train under his sister's family package plan.  If he splits the cost 3 ways then it's $20 a month for him.  It doesn't matter what you know as an instructor, about the quality or quantity of the information that potential student is getting online.  If the student feels that they are getting "enough" then that student won't make the investment to actually attend or pay for a class.
> 
> This is a simple case of what potential customers believe that they are receiving for free regardless if the information is complete or if it's accurate.  We have seen a few people even here on the forum who try to juice us for information instead of investing in a class.


I don't think people like that are likely to come into a school, in any case. He's only interested in what's free. If he thinks a student can teach what they just learned as well as their instructor could, he wouldn't last long (expects fast expertise). If not, then he's just comfortable with taking what he can get. In either case, the school probably isn't actually losing much money. And I've trained with folks who started at a school because of information and techniques a friend shared with them. They liked it and wanted to learn from an instructor, so they joined.


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## anerlich (Mar 2, 2017)

I've had four highly influential instructors, and I remain on very good terms with three of them.

I met my first instructor, David Crook in 1977. He had studied Wing Chun under William Cheung, but they had a falling out (not exactly Robinson Crusoe on that one). He was already pretty highly ranked in Goju Ryu Karate and taught a hybrid system of Wing Chun and a couple of other TCMA's thrown in. As improbable as it sounds, this was a very effective system, one whose forms I practice to this day. David was unusual on that he went out of his way to befriend other instructors in his locality and welcome new instructors when they arrived, even to the extent of sub-leasing his training premises to one such instructor at a very nominal fee to help him get established. He still trains and teaches to this day.

While I live in a different city and this was a LONG time ago, I would invite him over for a meal if I found he was in town, and he would do (and has done) the same if I were in his 'hood.

I had a Xingyi / Bagua instructor I trained with for about five years who was very manipulative with a small messiah complex. He could have been a successful cult leader were he less disorganised and his personal life less of a train wreck. He was one of the first Gwailo acupuncturists in Australia. He had a high Dan rank in Karate as well and could certainly fight himself - his students, not so much. I learned a lot of peripheral stuff about TCM, the Yijing, some Qigong, etc. but the Kung Fu was actually pretty basic. My personal life took some very strange twists due to this individual, and I came close to reaching full instructor level in his system. But I decided it was getting too weird and cut my losses. This guy no longer teaches Kung Fu. I could easily look him up if I wanted to, but I never will.

I've been with my current Wing Chun instructor since 1989. I've been a full instructor since 1995, and a "master" since 2011. Strictly on paper. I've taught for well over 20 years. I go to his kwoon twice a week. But ... mainly because I teach Jiu Jitsu there. Sometimes, just yesterday in fact, my wing Chun instructor is now my student for Jiu Jitsu.

My instructor was William Cheung's senior student up until 1996. There was a pivotal moment instigated by the GM, and then my instructor was on his own. In GM Cheung's wake there is a conflagration of burned bridges. Not Robinson Crusoe. It isn't always the student's fault. You can be a heretic, but your "God" can also cast you into Outer Darkness.

He introduced me and the rest of the kwoon to Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and included it in the curriculum. Some loved it, some hated it, some left. I was in the former camp. After a few years I found I couldn't get enough Jiu Jitsu at a part time school, tried a few other places, and ended up at my current Jiu Jitsu academy. The coach there was my WC instructor's BJJ coach for a while. Now he's my coach, and I teach BJJ at his academy semi-regularly. He also teaches Muay Thai, MMA and Arnis. Without spreading himself too thin.

My WC instructor has been a BJJ brown belt for about eight years. It's hard to fully immerse yourself in another art while you're running a full time Wing Chun school. I had no such responsibilities and could pursue Jiu Jitsu without distraction at this new academy. I trained there today, and I've been a black belt now for a bit over three years.

My WC instructor did manage to get himself a black belt in Kyokushin Karate along the way. He continues to have aspirations as a student as well as a teacher. after 43 years in the arts.

I'm still a student myself. In the last five weeks, I've taken three Steve Maxwell seminars, gone to a brown and black belt Machado BJJ training day, taken a Qigong seminar with Steve Maxwell's Qigong teacher, Stanley Tam, and I have another BJJ seminar on Sunday. That'll do it until the IBJJF rules seminar at the end of March.

The point? If there is one. Your circumstances change, your interests grow, develop, and change. You only get one life. It belongs to you, not Sifu.

As an instructor now myself, I'd feel I'd chosen my senior students poorly if they didn't develop their own goals and interests in the martial arts, and take steps to actualise themselves in those directions. I know there are other people out there that are WAY better than me at many  aspects of martial arts, and I need to be mindful to give students with a hunger for those aspects the opportunity to experience the best from the best. I'm supposed to make my sstudents better than me.

If I want someone to worship me and follow me for life, I'll get a dog. I expect more from my fellow humans.

Wanting something an instructor can't provide isn't necessarily a reflection on them. You can change course and follow a different path without alienating yourself from the people who put you on the original path. The only former instructor I don't have a good relationship with is the one where I chose to make the break.


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## wingerjim (Mar 3, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.
> 
> The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other  branches and systems.
> 
> ...


I am not sure if this is disturbing or just being a North American where we are often expecting to be quickly gratified. So I am not sure if this is a new trend or with everything at our fingertips we are growing more quickly satisfied as a general statement. My teacher teaches a few different arts and most other students like to switch from one to the next to the next. In general outside of martial arts I too loose focus and switch from one thing to another, but since I started formal training after 40 years old, I made up my mind to stay firm to one art and try to excel in this one, while my fellow students are mostly younger and have time on their side.


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## KPM (Mar 9, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> Nothing wrong with being a seeker. What's really 'disturbing' is when a certain seeker spends little to no actual time training with a certain Sifu in a particular lineage, moves on to something different, and then turns around and calls themselves an instructor in that lineage.



I missed this before, but it seems now that this is a reference to me?   Just who the heck are you and what is your beef???


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## Jsunlx (Mar 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> I missed this before, but it seems now that this is a reference to me?   Just who the heck are you and what is your beef???



I travel to Boston to study Pin Sun.  When I asked who you were and if you were an Instructor I was told you only had 2 or 3 classes with Jim. There are very few legit Pin Sun instructors so I'm curious as to your actual background.   How long did you study the art with your instructors?


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## Jsunlx (Mar 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> I missed this before, but it seems now that this is a reference to me?   Just who the heck are you and what is your beef???



And why does it matter who I am? If you're an instructor, why not answer questions about your claimed qualifications?


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## KPM (Mar 9, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> And why does it matter who I am? If you're an instructor, why not answer questions about your claimed qualifications?



Because there are too many BS artists out there just looking for something to tear down and criticize.  You now strike me  as one of those.   So forgive me if I tell you to kiss my backside if you can't be more polite.   And you were told wrong. 

If you want to ask information of someone the polite thing to do is introduce yourself, give your own background and state why you are asking for the information.  You have gone about it all wrong, which suggests to me that you are not someone I would want to share with.

So let me ask you a question......why would you not see me as a Pin Sun brother and ally rather than acting like a complete douche???


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## Steve (Mar 9, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this is just old cultural thinking for the most part.  That and the endless WC debates of "who is right and who is wrong" when it comes to doing "real wing chun."  From a business point of view I can see that Sifu's would rather have paying students to learn what you know, instead of that information being given away for free.  The perspective of "Why take a class if someone is going to give out the information for free?" can kill new student enrollment.  It doesn't matter how great the school is, when people start thinking like this then the chance of them paying is almost zero.
> 
> The last time I actually purchased music was maybe 1995 because of the same mentality.


Wait...  how are you getting music for free?   I mean, presuming you aren't suggesting you have been hoisting the Jolly Roger and sailing to tortuga on the Black Pearl.  

Are you really suggesting that people will not pay for what they can steal?  I must be missing the point.


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## Jsunlx (Mar 9, 2017)

KPM said:


> Because there are too many BS artists out there just looking for something to tear down and criticize.  You now strike me  as one of those.   So forgive me if I tell you to kiss my backside if you can't be more polite.   And you were told wrong.
> 
> If you want to ask information of someone the polite thing to do is introduce yourself, give your own background and state why you are asking for the information.  You have gone about it all wrong, which suggests to me that you are not someone I would want to share with.
> 
> So let me ask you a question......why would you not see me as a Pin Sun brother and ally rather than acting like a complete douche???



KPM, You can call me any name you want as a way to try to avoid answering my questions.  I think we know why!   If people found out your background and experience with Pin Sun was only a few weekends it wouldn't look good now would it?   Getting exposed must be embarrassing since you have been misrepresenting yourself and you want me to greet you with brotherly love??  That's rich!


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> And why does it matter who I am? If you're an instructor, why not answer questions about your claimed qualifications?


Because your questions don't come across as questions, but as attacks bearing the presumption of some guilt.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 9, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> KPM, You can call me any name you want as a way to try to avoid answering my questions.  I think we know why!   If people found out your background and experience with Pin Sun was only a few weekends it wouldn't look good now would it?   Getting exposed must be embarrassing since you have been misrepresenting yourself and you want me to greet you with brotherly love??  That's rich!


You could do with some manners, neighbor.


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## JowGaWolf (Mar 9, 2017)

Steve said:


> Wait...  how are you getting music for free?   I mean, presuming you aren't suggesting you have been hoisting the Jolly Roger and sailing to tortuga on the Black Pearl.
> 
> Are you really suggesting that people will not pay for what they can steal?  I must be missing the point.


 People who steal weren't going to pay for it anyway.  I'll put it like this.  If you ever had a Friday or Saturday night date with this machine as a teen, then you already know the answer to your question.


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## anerlich (Mar 9, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> KPM,  If people found out your background and experience with Pin Sun was only a few weekends it wouldn't look good now would it?



I doubt anyone else cares.

An unkind person might say Jim Roselando lost nearly all of whatever credibility he had when he jumped on Hendrik Santo's "flex/flow" (or whatever it was called) bandwagon to nowhere. And that taking a nasty, but too cowardly to identify themselves, piece of work like yourself on as a student has damaged it still further.

I don't really have any feelings about JR either way, or interest in him his students, or Pin Sun. Just illustrating how acting like a demanding immature d*ck on the forum the way you are can really p*ss other people off. and achieve nothing.


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## Dylan9d (Mar 10, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> KPM, You can call me any name you want as a way to try to avoid answering my questions.  I think we know why!   If people found out your background and experience with Pin Sun was only a few weekends it wouldn't look good now would it?   Getting exposed must be embarrassing since you have been misrepresenting yourself and you want me to greet you with brotherly love??  That's rich!



Don't know if calling someone out like this is allowed.

Apart from that, what KPM says, give your background if you are so "credible"......


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## Juany118 (Mar 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> I've noticed  a disturbing trend among the long time posters on this WC forum. Many seem to be "on the outs" with their present or former sifus. We seem to have a lot of free-thinkers here, who after a training short, or perhaps, quite a long time under a traditional sifu, have gone on to train with other WC groups or on their own.
> 
> The students dedicated to a single sifu and his system don't seem to hang around here that long --except for the occasional "true-believer" who is out to convert others to their way of thinking. I guess if you feel that your sifu has all the answers, there isn't as much to discuss ...especially with folks from other  branches and systems.
> 
> ...



I think I prefer the title "free thinker" over heretic .
That said I think it is largely the nature of the venue.  As an "open forum" inviting people from multiple lineages so you aren't going to find many "purists" around.  If you do you have someone that remains largely silent unless there is something mentioned that is specifically relevant to their school of thought or they are there to proselytise (aka troll).


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## KPM (Mar 10, 2017)

Jsunlx said:


> KPM, You can call me any name you want as a way to try to avoid answering my questions.  I think we know why!   If people found out your background and experience with Pin Sun was only a few weekends it wouldn't look good now would it?   Getting exposed must be embarrassing since you have been misrepresenting yourself and you want me to greet you with brotherly love??  That's rich!



You are welcome to put out a little effort in going back and reading what I have posted in this forum about Pin Sun in the past.  Then you can decide for yourself whether you think I know what I'm talking about.  But I don't owe you anything...including answers to rude questions.  In fact...as it shakes out from a "traditional gung fu" perspective, I am very likely your Si Hing and you have behaved very rudely in that context.  But at the end of the day, I was awarded an "instructor's certificate" directly from Henry Mui.  Can you say the same???


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## geezer (Mar 10, 2017)

OK, thanks to _Jsunix_ we now know that Keith learned all the stuff he's shared over the years in two or three lessons. If this is true, imagine what he would know if he learned for a month!

I tell ya what. He must be like the fastest learner in the world. Maybe I should just hang it up. 



Or ...is it just possible that this guy "Jsunix" has a little bit of  ...an _agenda_ here?


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## Xue Sheng (Mar 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> Or ...is it just possible that this guy "Jsunix" has a little bit of  ...an _agenda_ here?



Well...you did use the word "heresy" in the title


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## geezer (Mar 10, 2017)

Actually, it would be kinda fun to have a thread where we discuss a little of our personal WC/WT/VT histories. Not a resume, or bragging rights. More like discussing who and what has influenced each of us in our ongoing martial arts odyssey. Have to be selective though, since some of you guys have been in this since Ogg first picked up a club to smack Ugg.


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## geezer (Mar 10, 2017)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well...you did use the word "heresy" in the title



...but I didn't expect the bloody Spanish Inquisition!!!


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## jks9199 (Mar 10, 2017)

Folks, if you are concerned about a post or a poster's conduct, please use the Report function.   The Moderator Team looks atbthecreports and takes appropriate action.  We do not disclose what action is taken. 

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk


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## ShortBridge (Mar 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> ...Have to be selective though, since some of you guys have been in this since Ogg first picked up a club to smack Ugg.



Listen, I don't want to stir something up, but can we agree that UGG got what he had coming? I mean...That simmered for a long time before it boiled over, am I right?

JSUNLX, don't know who you are, don't care who you are, but we know Keith around here.


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## yak sao (Mar 10, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> Listen, I don't want to stir something up, but can we agree that UGG got what he had coming? I mean...That simmered for a long time before it boiled over, am I right?



Can we stop it already???? 
it's ancient history


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## Flying Crane (Mar 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> ...but I didn't expect the bloody Spanish Inquisition!!!


Nobody ever does.


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## Nobody Important (Mar 10, 2017)

geezer said:


> OK, thanks to _Jsunix_ we now know that Keith learned all the stuff he's shared over the years in two or three lessons. If this is true, imagine what he would know if he learned for a month!
> 
> I tell ya what. He must be like the fastest learner in the world. Maybe I should just hang it up.
> 
> ...


I've known Kieth for quite some time, he has always been honest & forthcoming. We've had heated discussions and we've had civil ones, both privately and publicly. At no point ever has he misrepresented himself or made any outlandish claims regarding how he came about his knowledge or with whom he's trained. I respect him for that. We may not always see eye to eye, but he has never been deceitful with me. I'm sure many others have had the same experience with him.

That being said, I can't rule out the fact that he may be a gifted savant that absorbs material through osmosis.


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## KPM (Mar 10, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> That being said, I can't rule out the fact that he may be a gifted savant that absorbs material through osmosis.



I'm actually a cyborg with a programmable chip.


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## Nobody Important (Mar 10, 2017)

KPM said:


> I'm actually a cyborg with a programmable chip.


Quiet! No one was asking for your 2 cents Mr. Roboto.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 11, 2017)

KPM said:


> I'm actually a cyborg with a programmable chip.


Then why the hell did it take you two or three days??? Dude, you're a horrible cyborg.


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## ShortBridge (Mar 11, 2017)




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