# When Is the Title of Sabun Earned?



## dancingalone (Feb 21, 2011)

I am curious when it is appropriate for your students or yourself to use the title of sabun?  Is it based on dan rank or something else such as opening your own school?  I suppose the answer depends to an extent from which group you are a member of?


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## puunui (Feb 21, 2011)

It's Sabum, not sabun. The Kukkiwon awards you the title when you graduate from the Instructor Course and receive the Instructor Qualification certificate.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 21, 2011)

In the ITF it's 4-6 Dan.


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## Manny (Feb 21, 2011)

If I recall sabum nim it's from 4th dan and up, below 4th dan is kyosa nim.

Manny


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## SahBumNimRush (Feb 22, 2011)

In our association it gets a bit murkier.. .  

1st dan:  Jokyonim
2nd and 3rd dan:  Boo Sahbumnim
4th dan and above:  Sahbumnim

HOWEVER,  there is only ever 1 sahbumnim in a school at a time.  For example, if there are 2 4th dans, 2 5th dans, 2 6th dans, and 2 7th dans in a school, whoever the highest ranking person is who happens to be in the class at the time is THE sahbumnim at the time.  I have no idea how accurate this is, but it was the way it was handed down to us.


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## dancingalone (Feb 22, 2011)

Much as I expected there seems to be no uniform criteria for the usage of the title.  Thanks, all.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 22, 2011)

puunui said:


> It's Sabum, not sabun. The Kukkiwon awards you the title when you graduate from the Instructor Course and receive the Instructor Qualification certificate.



I understood that Sabum wasn't an awarded title, but that it came with certain rank (4th Dan from my understanding).

Now, the Kukkiwon certifies International Instructors and I've seen some certificates that say "International Master Instructor" on them (or something like that), but as I understand it, that just to prove you're a "Kukkiwon-certified Master Instructor" rather than a "Kukkiwon-certified 4th Dan" and "Master".

Grandmaster I understood was more of an awarded title, a grandmaster gives you the title when you reach around 7th-8th Dan.

Certainly in the UK when someone reaches 4th Dan in Kukki-Taekwondo they are generally accepted to be a Master and people who have done the Kukkiwon Instructor Course are fairly rare over here (there are some, but I wouldn't consider it popular/normal).


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 22, 2011)

Generally, fourth dan is usually the minimum rank that it is acceptable in KMA (varries from art to art).  

Daniel


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I understood that Sabum wasn't an awarded title, but that
> it came with certain rank (4th Dan from my understanding).



that is when the majority of Taekwondoin in Korea take the Instructor Course, at 4th Dan. 




andyjeffries said:


> Now, the Kukkiwon certifies International Instructors and I've seen some certificates that say "International Master Instructor" on them (or something like that), but as I understand it, that just to prove you're a "Kukkiwon-certified Master Instructor" rather than a "Kukkiwon-certified 4th Dan" and "Master".



In the Korean language part, it has the word "sabum" instead of Master. 




andyjeffries said:


> Grandmaster I understood was more of an awarded title, a grandmaster gives you the title when you reach around 7th-8th Dan.



There was a statement from the Kukkiwon a while back that said that those who were 1st through 5th Dan were Master level, and those 6th Dan and higher were grandmaster level. I noticed after that came out, a whole lot more people started calling themselves Grandmaster.  Personally I think it was a mistranslation between yudanja (1st-5th dan) and Kodanja (6th Dan and higher).


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## puunui (Feb 22, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> Much as I expected there seems to be no uniform criteria for the usage of the title.  Thanks, all.



I think today there is a consensus of sorts that says you can get the title sabum at 4th Dan.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 22, 2011)

Perhaps Glenn or Mr. Talbot can elaborate  but my understanding is that the title is Sabum or perhaps another phonetic romanization, but the suffix "Nim" would not really be part of the title and is not properly used if referring to yourself. 

I believe the suffix Nim means something like respect. So it would be akin to referring to "respectedl Instructor" . You would refer to someone else as "Respected Instructor" but your own classification as "Instructor"  not "respectful instructor".


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> Pmy understanding is that the title is Sabum or perhaps another phonetic romanization, but the suffix "Nim" would not really be part of the title and is not properly used if referring to yourself.




Right. On the Kukkiwon Instructor Qualification certificates, it states "sabum" in Korean, and not Sabumnim. You don't really refer to yourself as Sabumnim; it is how others address you, generally juniors or if you wish to be polite. I've seen Korean born seniors address their juniors as "Lee Sabum" or "Kim Sabum" for example.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> Right. On the Kukkiwon Instructor Qualification certificates, it states "sabum" in Korean, and not Sabumnim. You don't really refer to yourself as Sabumnim; it is how others address you, generally juniors or if you wish to be polite. I've seen Korean born seniors address their juniors as "Lee Sabum" or "Kim Sabum" for example.



I'd also heard (from a Korean language teacher a while ago) that it's mildly offensive if you show that respect to a junior.  After discussions with her (and with Grandmaster) it seems that you are supposed to show less respect to your juniors (for example with not using the -nim suffix, not bowing as deeply) than to your seniors, otherwise it reduces the level of respect your showing the seniors.  In effect, if I treat a low ranked individual and a high ranked individual the same, then I'm not showing an appropriate deference to the senior.

Do you agree with this?

Personally in a wider context I prefer to treat everyone with respect until they prove unworthy, but in a Taekwondo context I am more mindful of the feelings of my seniors than my juniors (particularly as they are often from a different culture) so will do what is required to help their kibun (I don't know if help or be nice to would be more appropriate here).


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## andyjeffries (Feb 23, 2011)

puunui said:


> There was a statement from the Kukkiwon a while back that said that those who were 1st through 5th Dan were Master level, and those 6th Dan and higher were grandmaster level. I noticed after that came out, a whole lot more people started calling themselves Grandmaster.  Personally I think it was a mistranslation between yudanja (1st-5th dan) and Kodanja (6th Dan and higher).



So when do you consider someone to have the title Grandmaster?  A particular grade?  When granted by an existing Grandmaster?  When granted by one of the Kwan Jangs (or ex-Kwan Jangs) of the original kwans?  When completing a 1st Class Instructor Course? Something else?


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## troubleenuf (Feb 23, 2011)

I think all these titles are american made.  We used to think that Master was good enough, but then we had to add grandmaster to the list, now its the honorable great grandmaster so and so.  My students call me Master and thats it.  
  Just a note, I have some Korean students in my college class and they think its kind of strange when they see americans bowing and scraping to high ranking koreans.  They tell me in Korea that just isnt normal.




andyjeffries said:


> So when do you consider someone to have the title Grandmaster?  A particular grade?  When granted by an existing Grandmaster?  When granted by one of the Kwan Jangs (or ex-Kwan Jangs) of the original kwans?  When completing a 1st Class Instructor Course? Something else?


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd also heard (from a Korean language teacher a while ago) that it's mildly offensive if you show that respect to a junior.  After discussions with her (and with Grandmaster) it seems that you are supposed to show less respect to your juniors (for example with not using the -nim suffix, not bowing as deeply) than to your seniors, otherwise it reduces the level of respect your showing the seniors.  In effect, if I treat a low ranked individual and a high ranked individual the same, then I'm not showing an appropriate deference to the senior.
> 
> Do you agree with this?



I agree that it how I see it being applied in a Korean born context. I can also see non-Korean borns viewing this and taking offense, the idea of "respect flows equally both up and down" thing. There is no real equality in Korean culture; you are either higher or lower, and it is pretty much immediately apparent from the get go which position you are in. Those who are senior are treated in a certain way, just like those who are junior are treated in a certain way.


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## puunui (Feb 23, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> So when do you consider someone to have the title Grandmaster?  A particular grade?  When granted by an existing Grandmaster?  When granted by one of the Kwan Jangs (or ex-Kwan Jangs) of the original kwans?  When completing a 1st Class Instructor Course? Something else?




There really is no standard for the term Grandmaster. If I had to go with something, I would go with the Kukkiwon definition of Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher. But I don't know if this definition is still valid. Then there is the standard of you are a master or grandmaster when your teacher says you are, similar to the old saying that you are a man when your father says you are a man. But then that would mean that those who are estranged from their teacher or father would be out of luck. Sinmoo Hapkido has a whole list of titles which correspond to each dan rank. I don't know who came up with that one, I don't think it was GM Ji, so I never bothered to remember the specifics of that system. There is a grandmaster designation, which I believe is 9th Dan. 8th Dan is Chief Master I believe. I might be confusing it with the Kuk Sool Won titles.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> There really is no standard for the term Grandmaster. If I had to go with something, I would go with the Kukkiwon definition of Kukkiwon 6th Dan or higher. But I don't know if this definition is still valid. Then there is the standard of you are a master or grandmaster when your teacher says you are, similar to the old saying that you are a man when your father says you are a man.



I think the latter one is the one my grandmaster uses for grandmaster, but for master he just considers 4th Dan and above a master.



puunui said:


> But then that would mean that those who are estranged from their teacher or father would be out of luck.



Surely though they'd still have a teacher or they wouldn't progress in rank to be able to get the title that comes at around that rank?

I know as you get more senior you need less external influence in your training, you can self-train - but an examiner is used to evaluate you for rank so surely they're also ideally placed to provide assistance on getting to the required standard.

Another question, following on from the latter definition earlier (when awarded by your teacher), do you think it's normal that it comes at the same time as a promotion or as a completely separate issue at a separate time?


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> I agree that it how I see it being applied in a Korean born context. I can also see non-Korean borns viewing this and taking offense, the idea of "respect flows equally both up and down" thing. There is no real equality in Korean culture; you are either higher or lower, and it is pretty much immediately apparent from the get go which position you are in. Those who are senior are treated in a certain way, just like those who are junior are treated in a certain way.



That's what I understood.  It feels strange to me, but it's becoming more important that I'm conscious of not offending my seniors.


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## Earl Weiss (Feb 24, 2011)

FWIW in the ITF you should have learend the complete syllabus and have a level of ability and knowledge wih regard to that syllabus by the time you promote to 7th Dan at which point the term "Master Instructor" applies. 

There is a book called "Living the Martial Way" which I really liked. (The author has absolutley no relation to the ITF). Among other things it decries a point at which an unnamed organization reduced the rank for "Master" to 4th Dan. 

It seems that in this organization there were addittional parts of the curriculum yet to be learned after reaching 4th Dan, for promotion to higher ranks. 

His criticism was something to the effect of "How can you be a "Master" of a system when you have not yet learned parts of the system?" 

I felt the criticism had merit.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> His criticism was something to the effect of "How can you be a "Master" of a system when you have not yet learned parts of the system?"
> 
> I felt the criticism had merit.



I see your point.  Personally I feel Master doesn't mean the be all and end all of grades, any more than I think 1st Dan is "expert" level.

Personally I'm more of the option that Master should mean you are capable of training someone to black belt level and judging when someone else is black belt worthy and have been in the art long enough to be trusted to promote them to black belt.

The Kukkiwon (currently) says that's 4th Dan - whether I agree or not is difficult, I've been kind of conditioned to accept it so much that it seems reasonable. What I means is, I've come up through the ranks thinking that a 4th Dan is worthy of that so now it seems right by conditioning.

I'd say if it was when you master a system completely, then why bother having grades beyond it?  Surely if you've mastered it (in that sense), there's nowhere else to go.


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## dancingalone (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd say if it was when you master a system completely, then why bother having grades beyond it?  Surely if you've mastered it (in that sense), there's nowhere else to go.



Political or administrative ranks.  Also to show recognition to those who have contributed to the art in some way.

I like how some Japanese/Okinawan styles separate dan rank from teaching/advanced recognition with the renshi, kyoshi/shihan titles.


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## Rumy73 (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> I'd also heard (from a Korean language teacher a while ago) that it's mildly offensive if you show that respect to a junior. After discussions with her (and with Grandmaster) it seems that you are supposed to show less respect to your juniors (for example with not using the -nim suffix, not bowing as deeply) than to your seniors, otherwise it reduces the level of respect your showing the seniors. In effect, if I treat a low ranked individual and a high ranked individual the same, then I'm not showing an appropriate deference to the senior.
> 
> Do you agree with this?
> 
> Personally in a wider context I prefer to treat everyone with respect until they prove unworthy, but in a Taekwondo context I am more mindful of the feelings of my seniors than my juniors (particularly as they are often from a different culture) so will do what is required to help their kibun (I don't know if help or be nice to would be more appropriate here).


 

If you are not living in a Korea or in a Korean community, I would say I would not stress over this point. It is one of subtly and culture. My wife is Korean and I have studied the language. Your Korean teacher was very correct in stressing the great lenghts Koreans go to when establishing hierarchy. Even in casual meetings, Koreans ask each other age and profession in order to establish a pecking order for the conversation.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

Rumy73 said:


> If you are not living in a Korea or in a Korean community, I would say I would not stress over this point. It is one of subtly and culture.



As a fairly senior grade in my club I sometimes get asked about these thing, so it's nice to know. Also, as I said, it's more important to my seniors than my juniors so I'd like to behave correctly for the, taking subtlety into account.



Rumy73 said:


> My wife is Korean and I have studied the language. Your Korean teacher was very correct in stressing the great lenghts Koreans go to when establishing hierarchy. Even in casual meetings, Koreans ask each other age and profession in order to establish a pecking order for the conversation.



I know they also ask more invasive questions than that ;-)


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> Surely though they'd still have a teacher or they wouldn't progress in rank to be able to get the title that comes at around that rank?




You would be amazed at the number of practitioners out there, at least in the US, who have strained or no relationship with their teacher, and thus no opportunity for rank advancement. Or their teacher has no Kukkiwon rank or is unwilling to give Kukkiwon rank and the student desires it.


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

Earl Weiss said:


> His criticism was something to the effect of "How can you be a "Master" of a system when you have not yet learned parts of the system?" I felt the criticism had merit.




The title "Master", as translated from the word "Sabum" in Korean, does not mean that one knows everything. I think a better translation for "Master" is "Instructor". Basically what that person is doing is using the translated word "Master" and then substituting the english definition of the word, rather than going to the root Korean word and trying to understand that. People do the same thing with the translated english word "Art" and create all sorts of opinions or platitudes about that, rather than looking at the original word or Chinese character that the translation came from.


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## puunui (Feb 24, 2011)

Rumy73 said:


> If you are not living in a Korea or in a Korean community, I would say I would not stress over this point. It is one of subtly and culture.




But when interacting with seniors in the Korean martial arts world, it inevitably becomes a Korean community. Even when addressing non Korean born seniors within the martial arts context, those seniors also expect to a certain degree that their non-Korean juniors both understand the proper Korean protocols towards seniors and to abide by them, even if they say otherwise.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> The title "Master", as translated from the word "Sabum" in Korean, does not mean that one knows everything. I think a better translation for "Master" is "Instructor". Basically what that person is doing is using the translated word "Master" and then substituting the english definition of the word, rather than going to the root Korean word and trying to understand that. People do the same thing with the translated english word "Art" and create all sorts of opinions or platitudes about that, rather than looking at the original word or Chinese character that the translation came from.


Not to mention that there is more than one use in English for the word 'master.'  

I had read somewhere that Sabeom translates to teacher-father.  Not sure if that is accurate, though.

Daniel


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## andyjeffries (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> But when interacting with seniors in the Korean martial arts world, it inevitably becomes a Korean community. Even when addressing non Korean born seniors within the martial arts context, those seniors also expect to a certain degree that their non-Korean juniors both understand the proper Korean protocols towards seniors and to abide by them, even if they say otherwise.



That was my understanding too. Also that while they may give some leeway to foreigners, a little effort in customs and language goes a long way...


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## IcemanSK (Feb 24, 2011)

Based on what's been said here, sa bum seems to be a more appriate term then "master" that we English speakers often use.

I wonder if the origins of the term master (or the popularity of it) stemmed from the "Kung Fu" tv show & Master Po. Americans figuring it must be the definition of Sa Bum. And it rolls off the tongue better to call the instructor "Master Lee" than Lee Sa Bum nim. That's my guess. I might be wrong. But, it's been a long day & that's all I've got.


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## Balrog (Feb 24, 2011)

puunui said:


> The title "Master", as translated from the word "Sabum" in Korean, does not mean that one knows everything. I think a better translation for "Master" is "Instructor".


I was taught that Sabum means instructor, not Master.  When you refer to another, you use the honorific -nim, but not when referring to yourself.

We use the term in our school to denote whoever is in charge of the class.  If I'm teaching it, it's me.  If it's one of my juniors, even though I am the high rank on the floor, we bow out to whoever lead the class by saying "Sabumnim, kamsahamnida."


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Rumy73 said:


> Even in casual meetings, Koreans ask each other age and profession in order to establish a pecking order for the conversation.



Just as a slight deviation, we were talking about this before class last night and one of my students asked an interesting question.  I know they often also ask about if they have kids.  Who would be higher in pecking order - a 50 year old with two grown children (one of each), but in a fairly lowly/menial job or a 50 year old, unmarried, no children but a director of a large company?

What about a 40 year old on a good salary/job versus a 50 year old on a menial salary/job?

I guess one thing is more important than the others, then the rest are used to narrow it down between equals - and I would have guessed at age being the main one (in a Taekwondo context rank) then other items being used to distinguish between equals (but in what order).


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## MSUTKD (Feb 25, 2011)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Not to mention that there is more than one use in English for the word 'master.'
> 
> I had read somewhere that Sabeom translates to teacher-father. Not sure if that is accurate, though.
> 
> Daniel


 

Sabum actually translates to, teacher of teachers.  Saboo is teacher like a father.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 25, 2011)

Balrog said:


> I was taught that Sabum means instructor, not Master. When you refer to another, you use the honorific -nim, but not when referring to yourself.


I don't think that _any_ of the commonly used Asian MA honorifics actually translate to master.

Daniel


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## IcemanSK (Feb 25, 2011)

What would be the proper Korean term for an 8th Dan (let's say KKW)? Certainly SBN would not be inappropriate, but is there a better title? KJN certainly works if they are a dojang owner. I'm wondering if there is a more fitting title for the higher ranking folks.

For example: A few years ago I got met GM LEE, Kyu Hyung at the Hanmadang here in the US. It dawned on me that I was unsure of the most appropriate respectful term in which to call him.


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## puunui (Feb 25, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with addressing him as Sabumnim.


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## IcemanSK (Feb 25, 2011)

puunui said:


> There is nothing wrong with addressing him as Sabumnim.



Thank you, sir. I've always wondered that.


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## puunui (Feb 25, 2011)

IcemanSK said:


> Thank you, sir. I've always wondered that.



Please don't call me sir. That's my father, not me.


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> I am curious when it is appropriate for your students or yourself to use the title of sabun? Is it based on dan rank or something else such as opening your own school? I suppose the answer depends to an extent from which group you are a member of?


 The answer for the WTF style schools will be when you are 4th dan, I do not see it that way, if you are a junior learning to instruct we say Jokyonim, if you are over 18 and are learning to teach we say kyosanim, if you are teaching classes while the master instructor is present we say su-sabumnim,if you teach classes while the master instructor is away we say sabumnim. You must have completed the KKW instructor course to be a master instructor,you must be 4th dan or above. We hold bi-monthly instructor classes,they are free,anyone red belt or higher may be invited.The only time I see a problem is while closing, if there is a jokyo,kyosa,su-sabum,sabum, it can take a lot of bowing


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 27, 2011)

leadleg said:


> The answer for the WTF style schools will be when you are 4th dan, I do not see it that way, if you are a junior learning to instruct we say Jokyonim, if you are over 18 and are learning to teach we say kyosanim, if you are teaching classes while the master instructor is present we say su-sabumnim,if you teach classes while the master instructor is away we say sabumnim. You must have completed the KKW instructor course to be a master instructor,you must be 4th dan or above. We hold bi-monthly instructor classes,they are free,anyone red belt or higher may be invited.The only time I see a problem is while closing, if there is a jokyo,kyosa,su-sabum,sabum, it can take a lot of bowing


What is the kukkiwon instructor course? Does it take long to do, is it difficult, does it cost much, are all instrutors required to do it? Just curious.


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## leadleg (Feb 27, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> What is the kukkiwon instructor course? Does it take long to do, is it difficult, does it cost much, are all instrutors required to do it? Just curious.


 Sorry,only those wishing to be KKW can have this information,its secret.


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 28, 2011)

leadleg said:


> Sorry,only those wishing to be KKW can have this information,its secret.


Ok, I'll join the kukki. Now tell me


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> What is the kukkiwon instructor course? Does it take long to do, is it difficult, does it cost much, are all instrutors required to do it? Just curious.



OK, bear in mind that I haven't taken the course (yet!), so my knowledge is based on hearing about it from other people and wishing I could go.  However, no-one else has given a reply to your questions yet, so I'll try to.

The course certifies the holder as an International Master.  The course in Korea takes 4 or 5 days (can't remember which) and costs US$150. As far as I know the course is quite intensive physically and has an exam at the end.

In Korea it is mandatory to be able to open a dojang.  Internationally, it is currently optional.

You have to be a 4th Dan or above to qualify on the 3rd Class course (other classes are available for those with higher dans and lower class course qualifications).  You can sit the course below 4th Dan, but you only graduate upon receiving your 4th Dan.

I'd love to do it, but we're trying to be fiscally sensible for a year or two - but then I definitely want to get over there to do it!


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## ralphmcpherson (Feb 28, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, bear in mind that I haven't taken the course (yet!), so my knowledge is based on hearing about it from other people and wishing I could go.  However, no-one else has given a reply to your questions yet, so I'll try to.
> 
> The course certifies the holder as an International Master.  The course in Korea takes 4 or 5 days (can't remember which) and costs US$150. As far as I know the course is quite intensive physically and has an exam at the end.
> 
> ...


Thanks Andy. 4 or 5 days doing an intensive training course for only $150 would be worth the experience alone. I can imagine you'd learn heaps. I hope you get to do it someday.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 28, 2011)

ralphmcpherson said:


> Thanks Andy. 4 or 5 days doing an intensive training course for only $150 would be worth the experience alone. I can imagine you'd learn heaps. I hope you get to do it someday.



I hear the instructors on the course are top notch and I also have it in mind (but this may be incorrect) you also get some time training with members of the Korean national demo team and some members of the Olympic team.

Thanks for the wishes, I hope so too.


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## Muwubu16858 (Mar 19, 2011)

Food for thought: Sabum uses the same chinese characters that are pronounced Shihan in Japanese. Both Yun Kwai Byeong and Yun Byung In were licensed Shihan under Kanken Toyama when they arrived home to Korea, which would translate to Sabum there.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 21, 2011)

Yes.  Same Chinese characters, different reading.

Daniel


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