# Where have all the chunners gone...



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?  

Am I the only guy still nuts enough to try and use mostly straight up WC/WT/VT (with a few minor modifications) for my close-range standup game?  The basic principles still work for me. _Hellooo!_ Am I alone? Is there anyone else left in the room?


----------



## lansao (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?
> 
> Am I the only guy still nuts enough to try and use mostly straight up WC/WT/VT (with a few minor modifications) for my close-range standup game?  The basic principles still work for me. _Hellooo!_ Am I alone? Is there anyone else left in the room?



Hey there, haha. I've felt like it's a little dry lately too. What are you looking for? Happy to trade notes. I've been zooming in on two specific dummy sets lately. I come from Sifu John Wahnish who studied under Sigung Philip Holder.


----------



## Callen (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?
> 
> Am I the only guy still nuts enough to try and use mostly straight up WC/WT/VT (with a few minor modifications) for my close-range standup game? The basic principles still work for me. _Hellooo!_ Am I alone? Is there anyone else left in the room?


You sir, are not alone. Perhaps there should be more discussion on the forum about the basic principals of the system.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2018)

The day when everything that can be discussed have been discussed, the day that online discussion will die down.

Does WC follow the guideline of the 6 harmony? Do a WC guy coordinate his hand with his foot, or with his knee?

It can be an interest discussion if WC guys participate in this kind of general discussion and not just WC discussion.


----------



## DanT (Jun 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The day when everything that can be discussed have been discussed, the day that online discussion will die down.
> 
> Does WC follow the guideline of the 6 harmony? Do a WC guy coordinate his hand with his foot, or with his knee?
> 
> It can be an interest discussion if WC guys participate in this kind of general discussion and not just WC discussion.


I focus more on coordinating and linking my elbow with my hip. In my Wing Chun, we punch with both hip, shoulder, and elbow power. We turn the shoulders and hips when we punch (similar to boxing).


----------



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

Actually, Ive been working more on the dummy again lately myself after letting it go for a while. I live in a small house, so I have it installed on my back porch. It's already hot here (110+) so I have to train early in the morning r later at nightMy wife was concerned that the clattering of the arms would annoy the neighbors, but right now they are away so I'm back at it. 

I stick to the "WT" 116 movement set, similar to what Leung Ting published in his books, ...although, like most old-school Chinese instructors, he made a few changes in the public version, and kept a few things back. No biggy IMO. Forms are just forms. Useful enough, but understanding and executing application is what matters. And I still have a lot to learn in that department!

One thing about my lineage, is that we keep the dummy back for a _very_ long time. So I'm planning on getting a cheap but adequate PVC dummy installed in a corner of the boxing gym where I have my class, and am working on supplementary dummy drills for mid-level students.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 23, 2018)

Hi...


----------



## lansao (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> Actually, Ive been working more on the dummy again lately myself after letting it go for a while. I live in a small house, so I have it installed on my back porch. It's already hot here (110+) so I have to train early in the morning r later at nightMy wife was concerned that the clattering of the arms would annoy the neighbors, but right now they are away so I'm back at it.
> 
> I stick to the "WT" 116 movement set, similar to what Leung Ting published in his books, ...although, like most old-school Chinese instructors, he made a few changes in the public version, and kept a few things back. No biggy IMO. Forms are just forms. Useful enough, but understanding and executing application is what matters. And I still have a lot to learn in that department!
> 
> One thing about my lineage, is that we keep the dummy back for a _very_ long time. So I'm planning on getting a cheap but adequate PVC dummy installed in a corner of the boxing gym where I have my class, and am working on supplementary dummy drills for mid-level students.


The weather is crazy in Austin too, record heat. Interesting note on keeping the dummy back. That's an area of difference between how we study. I understand holding it back for a bit until students have unit hand and leg positions down to some degree, but why a very long time?


----------



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

DanT said:


> I focus more on coordinating and linking my elbow with my hip. In my Wing Chun, we punch with both hip, shoulder, and elbow power. *We turn the shoulders and hips when we punch (similar to boxing)*.



^^^^I don't think our WC power generation is very much like boxing at all. Most of the time, anyway.

On the other hand, I agree with the first part of what you said above, Dan  ...the part about emphasizing linking the punch with elbow and hip, ...and often the fist, elbow, hip, and also, either a _turn_ (torque) or _step_, putting your whole body into the punch. Which, when you come right down to it is a_ little_ bit like boxing I guess, just done in a different way.

A lot of people don't know this, but in addition to fast punches, my old sifu, LT used to stress _heavy punches._ Fast is good, but If you don't have a heavy punch in your arsenal_, _you cannot win a fight.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2018)

DanT said:


> I focus more on coordinating and linking my elbow with my hip.


I like to coordinate my elbow with my knee instead. But it's much easier to coordinate hand with foot because both have more moving range. If I throw WC chain punches, I'll make sure that one of the chain punches will hit on the target when my leading foot land.


----------



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

lansao said:


> ...but why a very long time?



Don't really know for sure. Let me hazard a wild guess .....$$$ ? 

BTW, I will be in Austin for WC from 7/17 - 7/22. I will be very busy training at a seminar the last couple of days, but should have some free time earlier in the week. PM me if you'd like to get in touch.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> I will be in Austin for WC from 7/17 - 7/22.


Too bad that I just left Austin 4 weeks ago. Otherwise we could meet. Every year I will spend 6 months in Austin and 6 months in California.


----------



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> ...I'll make sure that one of the chain punches will hit on the target when my leading foot land.



I don't really think of the linking the punch with the knee, but I _do_ like to have a punch land in synch with my step. That helps me have heavier punch!

Landing a punch together with the lead foot is good. However, since we favor a_ back-weighted_ drag-step, the punch that lands in time with the _rear_ foot has more body weight behind it.


----------



## geezer (Jun 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Too bad that I just left Austin 4 weeks ago. Otherwise we could meet. Every year I will spend 6 months in Austin and 6 months in California.



Sounds like a good life, and I would be very honored to meet you, John. I hope we can make it happen some day!


----------



## Callen (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> And I still have a lot to learn in that department!


That is a good thing!


----------



## yak sao (Jun 23, 2018)

Another die hard chunner checking in.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 23, 2018)

geezer said:


> since we favor a_ back-weighted_ drag-step, the punch that lands in time with the _rear_ foot has more body weight behind it.


I like to use back-weighted stance too (30% forward, 70% backward). Without switching sides, there are 2 ways to move forward.

1. 1/2 step - Step in front leg. Your back leg slide and follow.
2. 1 step - Step in back leg to touch behind your front leg. You then step in your front leg.

You are talking about 1. I'm talking about 2.

The reason that I prefer 2 over 1 is the following:

- In 1, the moment that you step in your leading leg, the distance between you and your opponent has been shorten. You may just step into his kicking range and you may not be safe. You can only cover 1/2 step distance.
- In 2, the moment that I move my back leg, the distance between I and my opponent has not been changed. I'm still outside of his kicking range and I'm still safe. You can cover 1 full step distance.


----------



## DanT (Jun 23, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I like to coordinate my elbow with my knee instead. But it's much easier to coordinate hand with foot because both have more moving range. If I throw WC chain punches, I'll make sure that one of the chain punches will hit on the target when my leading foot land.


I have no issue with either method. I do like timing my strikes to land slightly (milliseconds) before my foot lands (JKD method).


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 24, 2018)

DanT said:


> I have no issue with either method. I do like timing my strikes to land slightly (milliseconds) before my foot lands (JKD method).


This is a good example that there is no right or wrong but trade off. If you punch

- before your foot landing, you can take advantage on your momentum.
- during your foot landing, you can take advantage on your weight dropping.
- after your foot landing, you can take advantage on your better rooting.

Whether all 3 cases should be trained, that may be debatable.


----------



## wckf92 (Jun 24, 2018)

...still here...!!!  

I sometimes go to Austin on business...would like to learn more of the WC from Philip Holder. Don't know much about him or his WC. 

However, to spark conversation...lately I've been wondering: is there any difference from the LT WT taught in the mainland vs in the US? If so, can someone elaborate the broad strokes? And if there are any differences...why? How did that happen? Thanks!


----------



## wckf92 (Jun 24, 2018)

lansao said:


> I come from Sifu John Wahnish who studied under Sigung Philip Holder.



Interesting. lansao...where did PH learn from?


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Interesting. lansao...where did PH learn from?



He studied with two different schools in Hong Kong (Bill Cheung and another I believe Moy Yat) and came back to Philly to start North American Wing Chun back in the day. He combined both schools of thought and continues to teach out of Philly. Really great guy with great lessons for his students.


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> ...still here...!!!
> 
> I sometimes go to Austin on business...would like to learn more of the WC from Philip Holder. Don't know much about him or his WC.
> 
> However, to spark conversation...lately I've been wondering: is there any difference from the LT WT taught in the mainland vs in the US? If so, can someone elaborate the broad strokes? And if there are any differences...why? How did that happen? Thanks!



I don't know other systems well enough to compare. From what I've heard on this forum our footwork is different and we think about our hand positions differently. Here's a list of info from his school if any of them stand out to you.

Wing Chun Info | Masters-Center BodySmart Wellness Hypnotherapy Philip Holder PhD Wing Chun Certification Marie Kimelheim MD Psychiatry Medical Hypnotherapy Certification Medical


----------



## yak sao (Jun 24, 2018)

Sheesh, am I the only guy here who doesn't go to Austin?


----------



## geezer (Jun 24, 2018)

yak sao said:


> Sheesh, am I the only guy here who doesn't go to Austin?


Maybe you should go. It's a pretty nice place. --As an Arizonan, I never thought I'd say that about anyplace in Texas, but it's true!


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

geezer said:


> Maybe you should go. It's a pretty nice place. --As an Arizonan, I never thought I'd say that about anyplace in Texas, but it's true!


Selfish of me to say but Austin may be a good future WC meet-up site.


----------



## yak sao (Jun 24, 2018)

lansao said:


> Selfish of me to say but Austin may be a good future WC meet-up site.



Hmm, maybe we should try to organize a MT wing chun get together in Austin.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jun 24, 2018)

Still training, just reallocated the time I was spending getting trolled by people who wait for any post in the Wing Chun forum to swoop in and talk about how their training is superior. I would love to have positive discourse with other Wing Chun players. I've kept it going a few of you off-line, but mostly, been spending my training time on the floor.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 24, 2018)

Richard M. Guerra (nickname tiger) started to teach WC in Austin back in 1980.

Does anybody know him?


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

If anyone is curious, I'm posting the wooden dummy form as I've learned it here. Would love to take any specific questions about specific sets. Just use the video time or set number.






~ Alan


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 24, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I would love to have positive discourse with other Wing Chun players.


I feel the opposite. I don't like to discuss

- power training with Baji guys.
- speed training with preying mantis guys.
- ...

The reason is simple. They think their style are the best and they won't accept other styles point of view.

For example, onetime I had discussion with a XingYi guy. He said, "When I step in and punch you, you will be dead." I just can't continue that discussion with him after that. He thinks all XingYi guys can knock through a brick wall.

I still think WC guys should participate "general MA discussion" more often.

- Long fist has the most complete basic training.
- Baji has the simplest power generation training.
- Preying mantis has the best speed training.
- SC has the most complete throwing skill training.
- WC has the most detail center line principle training.
- ...

Only through "general CMA discussion", a CMA system can compare itself with others. It's a good thing.

I like to discuss throwing skill with Judo guys or American wrestlers. They sometime can give me some input that I have never thought about.


----------



## Callen (Jun 24, 2018)

yak sao said:


> Hmm, maybe we should try to organize a MT wing chun get together in Austin.


Not a bad idea.


----------



## wckf92 (Jun 24, 2018)

lansao said:


> If anyone is curious, I'm posting the wooden dummy form as I've learned it here. Would love to take any specific questions about specific sets. Just use the video time or set number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Q1: are you doing the form "softly" because your jong isn't mounted very solid(?)

Q2: is it just me or is that thing mounted too high for you?


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

Q1: are you doing the form "softly" because your jong isn't mounted very solid(?)
A1: Softly to focus on tightening pathways and increasing contact information transfer. Plenty of other approaches but it turns out being able to do the dummy without clinking any of the elbows requires real attention to detail. There are sandbags in that box underneath and I find this design to be portable and convenient in my garage gym.

Q2: is it just me or is that thing mounted too high for you?
A1: We mount our dummy so that it's elbows are roughly at shoulder height. Given the way we practice, this helps us practice with a partner that's about our height.


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Q1: are you doing the form "softly" because your jong isn't mounted very solid(?)
> 
> Q2: is it just me or is that thing mounted too high for you?



This one has more intention of you find that helpful.


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

@geezer, do you spar and/or with other arts?


----------



## Danny T (Jun 24, 2018)

Curious, do you find practicing with the dummy height with the arms at shoulder height causes you to lift the elbow and shoulder when training with a partner as it does with the dummy?


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Curious, do you find practicing with the dummy height with the arms at shoulder height causes you to lift the elbow and shoulder when training with a partner as it does with the dummy?



Short answer, I think it's yes if I'm reading you correctly. With bong sao for example, I find with practice my lats raise my shoulders into a tucked position more consistently, my upper arm is more easily parallel to the ground, and that the "deflective shelf" of the forearm has a higher upper bound at the elbow, and in general I feel like I've had better upper gate coverage. Does that help answer the question?


----------



## geezer (Jun 24, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Richard M. Guerra (nickname tiger) started to teach WC in Austin back in 1980.
> 
> Does anybody know him?


----------



## geezer (Jun 24, 2018)

Yes. 

Richard and I started our training with LT at the same time, although I was in Arizona, and he was in Texas. I had some phone conversations with him, but never met him in person. Several of my friends in Texas did train with him for a while. When he was younger, they say he was a pretty tough guy, coming from hard style Karate (Sor Ryu). Then he switched to Leung Ting's WT for a few years before going off on his own, promoting himself to "Master", ...maybe even "Grandmaster"? ...starting his own style, "La Mano de Guerra" and so on. Eventually he fell on some hard times. A friend of mine who new him well said not to judge hime too harshly, since he had suffered a lot of ***** in his life, possibly going back to his days as a Vietnam Vet. Maybe PTSD? ...apparently some delusional states too. I hope he is doing better these days.


----------



## geezer (Jun 24, 2018)

lansao said:


> @geezer, do you spar and/or with other arts?



Honestly, of late I've only been sparring with the fridge and getting fat and useless. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf though.


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

geezer said:


> Honestly, of late I've only been sparring with the fridge and getting fat and useless. I'm trying to turn over a new leaf though.


I'm fat too, it's ok. I just had my second kid and I'm definitely stress eating haha. We'll get through it eventually for our health's sake.


----------



## DanT (Jun 24, 2018)

lansao said:


> This one has more intention of you find that helpful.


Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

DanT said:


> Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?


Recovery footwork. Some great recovery tactics through out from awkward positions. Sometimes, unfortunately, legs can get crossed. That footwork shows the use of our T-step for recovery purposes. The T-step is also generally applicable throughout the system as a yielding and cornering mechanism.


----------



## lansao (Jun 24, 2018)

Oh! Does everyone else have to deal with drifting punches with new students? The straight, then "hey you're practicing moving that way, I'm gonna drift my fist toward you this way" stuff? I've had to show slow motion boxing footage to point out that solid painful punches don't drift. We slow down to take advantage of the luxury of peaceful surroundings, and pay that much more attention to detail as a result.


----------



## geezer (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> This one has more intention of you find that helpful.



You know two things I really _hate_ about that half-dummy you have... no make that _three_ things:

1. The half-round x-section would really make it unpleasant and awkward to practice the "Neck-Pulling Hand" (the second and 12th movements in the form I train) It would also be really simple to fix by just shaving down and rounding-off the angular corners on the top 5-6 inches of the neck/body.

2. The bulky and intrusive base which would definitely interfere with the footwork and the x-ing step kick (if you do that). Also the dummy wobbles all around. Gotta come up with something better.

3. The lack of adjustable height, and the lack of springiness. It looks to me like thats not helping your execution much either.

On the other hand I love that those half-jongs are smaller and more portable (at least minus the base), and also a lot cheaper than a full-sized Jong. Cheap is good.

I'm also looking for a cheap, portable jong to set up in the boxing gym where I have my class, something that I can put away after class and have been working on some solutions to the problems mentioned above.

For one thing, has anybody tried mounting a dummy like that on a hard rubber backing like a section of an old tire, which can in turn be clamped to any post, pipe, or in my case the steel frame that holds up the rows of heavy bags in our gym? That would provide a bit of spring, and allow for easy height adjustment. Plus you could easily un-clamp it and stow it away at the end of class. Thoughts?


----------



## geezer (Jun 25, 2018)

DanT said:


> Question, there are moments, such as at 1:15, where you cross your legs. Is this a tactic or an error?



The Leung Ting dummy set has a crossing step setting up a simultaneous low palm strike and kick to the lower dummy trunk, done once to each side. Looks nice on the dummy. Honestly though, not something that would be applied very often.

If you look at it from a "cost-benefit" or "risk-rewards" perspective, the reward is that you quickly sidestep your opponent's attack and get a great lateral angle for your leg attack. But IMO, the "risk" you take doing a crossing step is too high in actual application against a less wooden opponent. Or, maybe that's just me with my clumsy feet.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Jun 25, 2018)

Been on an almost 2 year break now from actually training WT and have been getting my hands dirty doing some grappling (gasp). I was only an intermediate WT student at best, Chum Kiu level. I miss it but training multiple things at one time with a busy job and young kids is a no-go option. I still practice a few movements on my homemade dummy.
I still come to the forum to hopefully see interesting videos other people training or discussion about technique. There seems to be less arguing and "trying to prove my point" on here these days since the departure of certain people (or maybe they're lurking and just silent, but that's far less likely). Some of the discussions here get a little.... esoteric for me sometimes though, especially about the history of WC and CMA.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Short answer, I think it's yes if I'm reading you correctly. With bong sao for example, I find with practice my lats raise my shoulders into a tucked position more consistently, my upper arm is more easily parallel to the ground, and that the "deflective shelf" of the forearm has a higher upper bound at the elbow, and in general I feel like I've had better upper gate coverage. Does that help answer the question?


I'm more looking at movements like at 20 sec) again at 26 sec & 1:09 sec) as well as in several others. 

Having to lift the shoulder and elbow to reach tends to go against a major fundamental of the wing chun I am accustom to. So am curious as to the reasoning. My understanding is the dummy is a fine tuner and for me having it such a height would create and re-enforce some bad habits.

I'm not saying what you are doing is wrong but is quite different for what I'm accustom to and interested in why you do so.
Thanks in advance.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

You know two things I really _hate_ about that half-dummy you have... no make that _three_ things:

1. The half-round x-section would really make it unpleasant and awkward to practice the "Neck-Pulling Hand" (the second and 12th movements in the form I train) It would also be really simple to fix by just shaving down and rounding-off the angular corners on the top 5-6 inches of the neck/body.
*I find it doesn't bother me much.*

2. The bulky and intrusive base which would definitely interfere with the footwork and the x-ing step kick (if you do that). Also the dummy wobbles all around. Gotta come up with something better.
*The base was custom made by a friend and unfortunately does push out a bit. I'll replace it at some point but for now I find it doesn't really get in the way of my leg work.*

3. The lack of adjustable height, and the lack of springiness. It looks to me like thats not helping your execution much either.
*Adjustable height might be nice. I notice that people put a lot of emphasis on springiness of the dummy. Why? Seems trivial.

In terms of execution, were there any specific areas that you wanted to discuss or were curious about?*


----------



## Danny T (Jun 25, 2018)

geezer said:


> The Leung Ting dummy set has a crossing step setting up a simultaneous low palm strike and kick to the lower dummy trunk, done once to each side. Looks nice on the dummy. Honestly though, not something that would be applied very often.
> 
> If you look at it from a "cost-benefit" or "risk-rewards" perspective, the reward is that you quickly sidestep your opponent's attack and get a great lateral angle for your leg attack. But IMO, the "risk" you take doing a crossing step is too high in actual application against a less wooden opponent. Or, maybe that's just me with my clumsy feet.


geezer, we do so as well.
Couple of potentials:
One is same as what you've stated.
One is a leg sweep followed by a kick to behind the opponent's knee or ankle stomp.
There are other potentials.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

I'm more looking at movements like at 20 sec) again at 26 sec & 1:09 sec) as well as in several others.

Having to lift the shoulder and elbow to reach tends to go against a major fundamental of the wing chun I am accustom to. So am curious as to the reasoning. My understanding is the dummy is a fine tuner and for me having it such a height would create and re-enforce some bad habits.

*What you're seeing is our bil sao. You can imagine deflecting a right punch with left bil sao, being on the inside, and looking to get to the outside. Bil, Heun, Double-Lop, Palm, reset, Bil, T-Step alternate Bil, Double-Lop, Palm, etc. The reach to the back of the neck of the opponent is short from there. Our bil sao does go to full extension.*


----------



## Danny T (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> *What you're seeing is our bil sao. You can imagine deflecting a right punch with left bil sao, being on the inside, and looking to get to the outside. Bil, Heun, Double-Lop, Palm, reset, Bil, T-Step alternate Bil, Double-Lop, Palm, etc. The reach to the back of the neck of the opponent is short from there. Our bil sao does go to full extension.*


OK...thanks.


----------



## Callen (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> If anyone is curious, I'm posting the wooden dummy form as I've learned it here. Would love to take any specific questions about specific sets. Just use the video time or set number.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course 

Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
Are you purposely further away from the dummy during the Po Pai section @1:33 sec. and again @1:37 sec?

Thanks again, I thoroughly enjoy seeing different dummy forms.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 25, 2018)

geezer said:


> For one thing, has anybody tried mounting a dummy like that on a hard rubber backing like a section of an old tire, which can in turn be clamped to any post, pipe, or in my case the steel frame that holds up the rows of heavy bags in our gym? That would provide a bit of spring, and allow for easy height adjustment. Plus you could easily un-clamp it and stow it away at the end of class. Thoughts?


I had built up a WC dummy from a telephone pole. It stands on a metal plate with spring. All 3 arms have spring in it. The head, body, arms are all covered by rubber. The chest is also covered by fur. It cost me $500 back in 1973. The nice thing about it is I can treat it as a punching bag and I can punch on the head or body as hard as I can.

When I put my WC dummy in my MA school. One day someone broke in through the window. He kneed down in front of my WC dummy and warship it as his god.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

Danny T said:


> geezer, we do so as well.
> Couple of potentials:
> One is same as what you've stated.
> One is a leg sweep followed by a kick to behind the opponent's knee or ankle stomp.
> There are other potentials.





Callen said:


> This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course
> 
> Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
> Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
> ...


Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective. 




Looking into the second one now but may not be able to respond right away (putting kids down).

~ Alan


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

Callen said:


> This is quite a long form. Good job and thanks for sharing! A few questions do come to mind... being respectfully curious of course
> 
> Have you trained on a dummy set at a lower height? If so, what did you think?
> Is your left hand placement @30 sec. and again @1:47 sec. intentional?
> ...



For the second question, that's me not stepping in deep enough. Could be because of my weird dummy base protruding out too far or me not lining up correctly before hand. I tend to have to repeat each set a few times to not make a mistake. 

Side note: It's also my least favorite set because of the impracticality of double-palm strikes but it's kept in for tradition. The two hand push deflection from quan sao is useful but overshadowed by set five.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

I would really love to better understand how other lineages think about deflection with particular focus on energy efficiency.


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

By the way, I spent time going through the principles that Sigung Holder first established and did the administrative data entry task of sorting them in a stacking order. Also included a few more "in-between concepts" that helped me learn and teach a little faster.

First ten of the 50 rules I work hard to train by:

Proof By Authority Is Worthless
Confidence in Analysis & Competence in Practice
Energy Should be Conserved
Opponent Has Uniform Advantage
Fighting Force with Force Should be Avoided
Movement Should be Minimized (frequency)
Movement Should be Simple (Tightly Factored)
Confidentiality Gives You The Advantage
Unification of Intent (Coordinated Body Mechanics)
Occupation of Territory
Happy to share more if anyone is interested. PM me.

~ Alan


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.


I went through it again, looks like it's me not positioning myself closely enough. The base doesn't get in my way as I'm just in a left neutral position.


----------



## Callen (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> Hope this helps answer the first question from our perspective.


That’s awesome! I appreciate that you took the time and effort to record and explain your movements in a video response to my question, thank you.

I can now see the Fook Sau that you are referring to. I’m not too familiar with William Cheung’s dummy set, so that use of Fook in the form is interesting to me.



lansao said:


> Looked into the second one. You've found an area where my dummy's design may be hindering my ability to step in deep enough to deliver a double palm strike with confidence.


I agree. Your dummy design is holding you back, quite literally.



lansao said:


> Side note: It's also my least favorite set because of the impracticality of double-palm strikes but it's kept in for tradition. The two hand push deflection from quan sao is useful but overshadowed by set five.


I have found that different groups put an emphasis on different actions. In some lineages/groups, Po Pai (double-palm strikes) can be extremely practical and effective. However, training it properly on the dummy requires more power generation and spring than what your current set-up will allow.


----------



## Callen (Jun 25, 2018)

lansao said:


> I went through it again, looks like it's me not positioning myself closely enough. The base doesn't get in my way as I'm just in a left neutral position.


It is good that you are considering all the possibilities, that will make you a better practitioner. If you are too far away from the dummy during that section, it stands to reason that it can happen in other parts of the form as well. So good for you for noticing!

Still think you should think on modifying that base though


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

Callen said:


> That’s awesome! I appreciate that you took the time and effort to record and explain your movements in a video response to my question, thank you.
> 
> I can now see the Fook Sau that you are referring to. I’m not too familiar with William Cheung’s dummy set, so that use of Fook in the form is interesting to me.
> 
> ...


I'll share that it is heavily influenced by William Cheung's lineage but significantly overhauled by Philip Holder. To a point where William Cheung students might not recognize aspects.

It was a gift from my mom after my dad passed. It's not ideal and my Sifu encouraged me to wall-mount it when I was setting it up. I just can't keep it in a fixed position in my garage at the moment and needed something to get the thing up. I'll see if I can find a better mounting situation for it in the near term.

Do you have a good example of when the double palm strike is practical and effective?

~ Alan


----------



## lansao (Jun 25, 2018)

Callen said:


> It is good that you are considering all the possibilities, that will make you a better practitioner. If you are too far away from the dummy during that section, it stands to reason that it can happen in other parts of the form as well. So good for you for noticing!
> 
> Still think you should think on modifying that base though


Yeah totally. I'll find a way to remedy the base. 

If I make a mistake in any step of the sequence, the cause of the error was in the step before it. I find that iteration within each set "tunes" my foot work and range. Repeating small step to step transitions over and over tightens up gaps in my central line too. Lots of information encoded in the dummy sets, but finite information. Everything in every sequence is explainable as a root application.

~ Alan


----------



## JowGaWolf (Jun 26, 2018)

geezer said:


> Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?
> 
> Am I the only guy still nuts enough to try and use mostly straight up WC/WT/VT (with a few minor modifications) for my close-range standup game?  The basic principles still work for me. _Hellooo!_ Am I alone? Is there anyone else left in the room?


Sorry about that.  I beat them all up and spared you so you can feel lonely
. Lol.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Jun 26, 2018)

Full disclosure, I thought the Po Pai strikes in the dummy form looked awkward and I questioned how useful that would actually be, and I never had any exposure to it in class to have an informed opinion, but I will say the WC/WT *double punch* is actually quite useful after spending some time training it! It was like a light bulb came on and I saw numerous opportunities to actually use them in chi-sau / gor-sau. Having been on the receiving end of them more than once, it can be very jarring.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Jun 26, 2018)

JowGaWolf said:


> Sorry about that.  I beat them all up and spared you so you can feel lonely
> . Lol.


We do miss the time period that we had "WC snake engine" discussion.


----------



## lansao (Jun 26, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> Full disclosure, I thought the Po Pai strikes in the dummy form looked awkward and I questioned how useful that would actually be, and I never had any exposure to it in class to have an informed opinion, but I will say the WC/WT *double punch* is actually quite useful after spending some time training it! It was like a light bulb came on and I saw numerous opportunities to actually use them in chi-sau / gor-sau. Having been on the receiving end of them more than once, it can be very jarring.


If you miss, what's guarding your face?


----------



## PiedmontChun (Jun 26, 2018)

lansao said:


> If you miss, what's guarding your face?


Its a low / mid level punch right on the centerline. If you miss, its because they stepped back out of range, but its done at very close range so its very high percentage to land as intended. I couldn't find a photo of it in practice but this book cover shows the fist positioning.
http://www.everythingwingchun.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BOOK-LT01-2001-2T.jpg


----------



## lansao (Jun 26, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> Its a low / mid level punch right on the centerline. If you miss, its because they stepped back out of range, but its done at very close range so its very high percentage to land as intended. I couldn't find a photo of it in practice but this book cover shows the fist positioning.
> http://www.everythingwingchun.com/v/vspfiles/photos/BOOK-LT01-2001-2T.jpg



I imagine they could also step slightly to either side while throwing a basic hook punch for the head.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 26, 2018)

The Butterfly Hands also know as Po Pai, is a technique mostly devoted to a sharp, decisive thrust of both hands or fists against the body toward the core. The primary goal of this nature is to take advantage of the surrounding environment and use it as a weapon, such as the sharp angle of a wall or the surface of a window for example and projecting the opponent into or through it. Secondary applications are for multiple opponents, countering an attempted grappling move, up-rooting the opponents position, disturbing balance, etc. Po Pai is a secondary or tertiary action following in a combination never a primary attack.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jun 26, 2018)

It took a bit of time for me with Po Pai Sao, but I find that there is a use for it. It is a common hand in not just Wing Chun, but other southern systems. I wouldn't write it off just yet.


----------



## lansao (Jun 26, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> It took a bit of time for me with Po Pai Sao, but I find that there is a use for it. It is a common hand in not just Wing Chun, but other southern systems. I wouldn't write it off just yet.



I won’t write it off, but likely won’t practice it as often as other components that I feel are more practical in a fight. Good to see different thoughts on it from other perspectives.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jun 26, 2018)

It's far from my go-to, but I don't think there is anything impractical about it in the right circumstances. Attack and defense are the same. Strikes are also covers/intercepts. I wouldn't use it without a bridge and control of the space.


----------



## lansao (Jun 26, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> It's far from my go-to, but I don't think there is anything impractical about it in the right circumstances. Attack and defense are the same. Strikes are also covers/intercepts. I wouldn't use it without a bridge and control of the space.



Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale. 

Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if there’s ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.


----------



## Eric_H (Jun 26, 2018)

> Hey guys, the WC forum has been really dead lately, and before that, most of the posts were about things like KPM's WC-Boxing. Aren't there any straight-up chunners left?



We're still around.

My Sifu finally is opening up Chum Kiu, I'm pretty excited. No surprise, it's worlds away from what I did in the Moy Yat/VTM version. 

Hope this means two handed Chi Sao is on the way, it'll be nice to tahn/bong/fuk with the rest of you.


----------



## geezer (Jun 26, 2018)

What? _Eric_ is that you? Just this morning I dug out an old bottle of jow I got from you via Jake. Remember him? I've totally lost touch with him, but I'm glad I still have a bit of that jow. I seem to bruise easier these days! Anyway, keep in touch --and post a bit more often!


----------



## yak sao (Jun 26, 2018)

geezer said:


> ...Just this morning I dug out an old bottle of jow I got from you via Jake. Remember him? I've totally lost touch with him, but I'm glad I still have a bit of that jow....



I've been ordering from SCAR FAMILY DIT DA JOW & MARTIAL ARTS SUPPLY

Seems to be pretty decent quality stuff.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Jun 27, 2018)

lansao said:


> I imagine they could also step slightly to either side while throwing a basic hook punch for the head.


If you had to step in with the double punch from out of range, I would agree with you. Generally, the opportunity to use the double punch is when you already are at very close range, are nose to nose with your partner / opponent, so to speak, in terms of alignment. Also, and this might be a more WC versus WC type application, but ideally your arms would have already deflected or even trapped the opponent's arms below yours - so a hook punch would be a huge reset and windup movement for him compared to your arms launching only inches forward to their target. A video would make more sense than trying to describe it; there might be a decent example on YouTube but I looked a couple minutes and didn't find one.


----------



## Danny T (Jun 27, 2018)

lansao said:


> Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale.
> 
> Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if there’s ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.


Think standing grappling. Use it to create space or thrust the person off of you or into someone else. Trap a leg or sweep, and po pai simultaneously to knock them down or away from you.


----------



## ShortBridge (Jun 27, 2018)

lansao said:


> Not calling it impractical in general but compared to other techniques that have higher incidence rates and the likelihood of being setup just right to leverage it, I put it comparatively lower on the practicality scale.
> 
> Also given the sheer speed and violence of real combat, I struggle with what I see as a gap in protecting the face. That said, context matters, and if there’s ever a chance to meet up in person and discuss, this seems like a testable point of disagreement.



If we had a chance to touch hands sometime we could definitely train it. Ironically, I've been teaching it lately because one of my students who is in that section of the mook jong said the same thing, so we've been drilling it.

But, you can't just say "I'm going to Muai Thai you and see if you can successfully Po Pai Sao me". Wing Chun (fighting in general) doesn't work that way. It needs to flow naturally from the right position. The same truth exists for like a wrist lock. If you say "okay, I'm going to attack you, let's see you apply that wrist lock in real life" it doesn't work. The technique needs to be one of several that might flow naturally depending.

BECAUSE actual violence is fast and chaotic I find this technique to be useful. But, again, it's not probably in my top 10 and I think it requires really good overall skill to pull it off.


----------



## lansao (Jun 27, 2018)

PiedmontChun said:


> But, you can't just say "I'm going to Muai Thai you and see if you can successfully Po Pai Sao me". Wing Chun (fighting in general) doesn't work that way. It needs to flow naturally from the right position. The same truth exists for like a wrist lock. If you say "okay, I'm going to attack you, let's see you apply that wrist lock in real life" it doesn't work. The technique needs to be one of several that might flow naturally depending.



This, this, all day this ^^. We have the luxury of time in the keun. If we were to practice this together, I'd work with you to figure out how I can be a good partner. Frame by frame we'd pause and ask questions like:

am I exposed? where?

what are my opponents options? what are my options? 

if my opponent uses one of his options, what's my next best option given his move? 

am I in a position where my opponent being stronger than me might make this difficult? 

is this the simplest possible movement given within the realm of safety?
Then we'd move to the next frame. 

Random extra bit: This time-series approach also let's us use basic calculus and geometry to refine deflective angles. For example, with bong sao (as we practice it - lol I feel like we all say this so often it needs it's own acronym, AWP?), we can describe the position the forearm lands in as the main diagonal of a cube (cubic diagonal), which when rotated in an upward and outward direction into place, deflects an incoming linear strike up and in the opposite direction of the bong sao arm. It behaves a lot like a boxer's shoulder role, but using the forearm as point of contact.


----------



## Martial D (Jun 27, 2018)

But by the same token, if too many of your go to moves(or even a good portion of your syllabus) requires that the moon be aligned with jupiter on a spring day that isn't raining to land, you might want to reevaluate.


----------



## lansao (Jun 27, 2018)

Martial D said:


> But by the same token, if too many of your go to moves(or even a good portion of your syllabus) requires that the moon be aligned with jupiter on a spring day that isn't raining to land, you might want to reevaluate.



Be super judicial with what you choose to dedicate to muscle memory. It’s an investment in your time and takes away from time you would otherwise spend further training the techniques that have already passed your criteria. Continually improve on your criteria, and review your selections to remove anything that doesn’t pass.

Limit your training to the essential abstract unit movements that let you adapt to any situation (emphasis on “you”).


----------



## Martial D (Jun 27, 2018)

I have a very simple criteria actually.

Will this work on an opponent even if he is expecting it?

Ready for my jab but my jab still lands? Good.

Expecting me to armbar but still get armbarred? Good

Expecting me to grab the wrist and spin it over my head as I grab your elbow and throw you? Never gonna happen.


----------



## Bino TWT (Jul 1, 2018)

Tsunner in the building


----------



## futsaowingchun (Sep 19, 2018)

Just thought I drop by and see what's going on..


----------



## yak sao (Sep 19, 2018)

futsaowingchun said:


> Just thought I drop by and see what's going on..



As you can see, not a whole lot.


----------



## KPM (Sep 22, 2018)

Well, I can tell you where I've been.  I was banned again!  In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him.  Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate.  And this is not the first time!  So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that!  And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours!


----------



## Martial D (Sep 22, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, I can tell you where I've been.  I was banned again!  In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him.  Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate.  And this is not the first time!  So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that!  And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours!


I was wondering where you've been.


----------



## _Simon_ (Sep 23, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, I can tell you where I've been.  I was banned again!  In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him.  Then I got banned for using a "bad word", even though he was the one being very inappropriate.  And this is not the first time!  So everyone should be aware, that the moderators are very sensitive to using "bad words", even if the rules don't exactly state that!  And their definition of a "bad word" may not be the same as yours!



Ah didn't realise you were banned...

(FWIW I thought you carried yourself well in that thread, were honest without being disrespectful, and simply calling someone out truthfully on the way they were acting  )


----------



## geezer (Sep 23, 2018)

KPM said:


> Well, I can tell you where I've been.  I was banned again!  In a thread in the general forum I pointed out what a DXXk someone was being and reported him...



Well, that got my curiosity up, so I went back and found that post. Yep. You said a _bad_ word, and frankly, I'm shocked. ... Best to find some kind of euphemism I suppose. Anyway, that guy really was coming across like a total _Ricardo_, so we forgive you for saying what we were all thinking! 

--anyway, welcome back.


----------



## Hanzou (Sep 23, 2018)

Interestingly, the four Wing Chunners I knew all quit WC and got into MMA, Muay Thai, or Bjj.


----------



## jks9199 (Sep 23, 2018)

Folks,

A couple of thoughts from the back room...

Martial Talk is supposed to be a friendly place.  If someone isn't being nice, the best way to handle it isn't to respond in kind, complain about it in the thread, or add to the problem.  Hit the RTM button, tell us what's wrong, and let us handle it.  We don't discuss the actions taken publicly.  Maybe you shouldn't discuss actions taken against you publicly, either...

If you are in the habit of posting in a way that causes disruptions, bashing different arts, or basically making more work for the Moderation Team... maybe you can think about that, and figure a friendlier way to post?  I suspect that it would be widely appreciated... and not just by the Staff.

Really, folks, it comes down to the Golden Rule.  Treat each other as you want to be treated.  Be excellent to each other...


----------



## KPM (Sep 23, 2018)

So, you are telling a bunch of martial artists to NOT take up for themselves??  That typically doesn't go over too well!


----------



## geezer (Sep 23, 2018)

KPM said:


> So, you are telling a bunch of martial artists to NOT take up for themselves??  That typically doesn't go over too well!



Now Keith, don't be a _Ricardo_. Truth be told, You did good tellin' off that _Lied Flice_ guy, but you are an articulate guy. You can do that without being uncivil, and can help keep this forum a better place to hang out than so many others.

Getting back on track-- How's the *WC boxing *experiment going. Is it attracting interest? As in students or practitioners?


----------



## KPM (Sep 25, 2018)

geezer said:


> Getting back on track-- How's the *WC boxing *experiment going. Is it attracting interest? As in students or practitioners?



It's a bit discouraging.  I started a "Meet Up" group locally to try and attract some attention.  It hasn't produced much result. I kind of get the impression that the interest in martial arts in general is kind of dipping down in the US right now.  

Paul Rackemann has told me he is planning on dropping the "Wing Chun Boxing" label because he continues to get so much flack and hate mail from Wing Chun guys.  I've been putting more emphasis on Kali recently because I've become rather jaded and fed up with the attitude so prevalent in the Wing Chun community.


----------



## PiedmontChun (Sep 25, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> Interestingly, the four Wing Chunners I knew all quit WC and got into MMA, Muay Thai, or Bjj.


I hate to use the word "quit" since I insisted I was taking a break from WT 2 years ago and planned to return (it was for multiple reasons -  time / new job further from the school / to appease my wife since we were having another child coming any day / money)

Rather than just sit around though, I ended up at a weekend Judo class that was local to me and affordable, for something completely different and arguably complementary to WT. When that club fell apart, I replaced it with BJJ since that was pretty local to me also. I train BJJ quite a bit now. I wish I could return to WT and keep up with BJJ too. Maybe if I somehow won the lottery tomorrow (which would be a miracle considering I never buy a ticket) then I would train in both, until my body fell apart of course.

Fairly speculative on my part, but I *do* think if a hypothetical self defense scenario happened, I would probably default to WT striking / deflection and grapple as a secondary. I also question how comfortable I would be having a BJJ-only toolset and not the prior time in a striking art.


----------



## ShortBridge (Sep 26, 2018)

I think "all of the chunners" feel the futility of being "called out" every time they try to post about their style in the forum dedicated to it in the "Friendly Martial Arts Community". Better to just train.


----------



## geezer (Sep 26, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I think "all of the chunners" feel the futility of being "called out" every time they try to post about their style in the forum dedicated to it in the "Friendly Martial Arts Community". Better to just train.



1. Never felt like I was being called out on this forum.
2. Yep. I probably should post less and train more! 

BTW are you Troy, the instructor at Short Bridge Athletic Assn.??? If so, I'd like to look you up if I get up to Seattle again (I have family there!).


----------



## ShortBridge (Sep 26, 2018)

That's me and please do. I'd be delighted to meet you.


----------



## Martial D (Sep 28, 2018)

geezer said:


> 1. Never felt like I was being called out on this forum.
> 2. Yep. I probably should post less and train more!



Me either, and me too!


----------

