# Would this be improper use of TSD?



## SamT (Oct 19, 2008)

I turned 18 on the 17th, which means I can legally enter bars here in Iowa. There's a gentleman's club near me that hosts boxing matches and their idea of MMA fights. And I'm sure you can all see where this is leading.

Would it be an improper use of Tang Soo Do to use it to fight in an organized event such as that? I asked a black belt who's an associate at my school, and she said that she views what she knows as an art to defend herself and others, not to go out and use in fights at her own will. I have yet to ask my instructor about it. His general rule on fighting is: "Never use Tang Soo Do to start a fight, only use it to end one."


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## MBuzzy (Oct 19, 2008)

Wow, that is a really interesting concept.  

I think that it is primarily a matter of personal beliefs and opinions.  I suppose it depends how deeply you buy into the philosophy.  In the end, we're learning what is intended to be a battlefield art, i.e. a system for hurting another person either for defense or offense (because even in defense, there is a point when you go into offensive mode).  I believe that why it was created is only relevant if you personally believe the philosophical portion.  This dictates whether you can use TSD in a purely offensive situation (i.e. when the other guy has done nothing to you)

Then it is up to whether you believe in competition.  I think that I can say with confidence that at least 90% (if not 100%) of the TSD organizations out there encourage competition through fighting.  If they did not, there would be no sparring based tournaments.  But there is ALWAYS sparring at tournaments.  We're just talking about a different level of sparring, since I assume that these matches are not to the death!  Look at even the greatest of martial artists, they were all involved in varying levels of fighing competitions.  I personally have no objection to people using TSD in an organized tournament/fighting scenario.  You are not using it real aggression, you are using it to test your skills against another person.  Personally, I wouldn't do it, because I don't like the idea of getting my brains beaten in.

So to me, there are two other things to consider.  1)  The venue....do you have any personal issues with you being in there or with using your art in a gentlemen's club.  

and I would say more importantly 2)  What chance do you have?  I have full faith in my art, but it is a self defense art.  And what are really the chances that you're going to run into another trained martial artist on the street?  Very small.  But in the ring, that guy IS another trained fighter....and as much as it pains me, TSD IS NOT GOOD FOR RING MATCHES.  It may have been at one time, but in this day and age with how MMA is conducted....TSD will lose.  Those fights go to the ground....a trained MMA fighter will have a much better ground game and probably a more robust standing bag of tricks.  Now, your Dojang may be very expansive in its training, but an MMA fighter will probably just have more....think about it, training with no forms, no requirements, just what works and fighting EVERY CLASS, against different styles.  

And that is one of the reasons why so many people around here believe so strongly in cross training.  TSD has a lot and if you study deeply enough and are open minded enough, it has it all....but most Dojangs don't teach it all.  So without some Judo, Wrestling, a touch of BJJ, maybe some Aikido, and the boxing basics....I personally would NEVER step into the ring with an MMA fighter.


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## Muwubu16858 (Oct 19, 2008)

Truthfully, in the spirit of the art, it is wrong. However, if you take it from the MARTIAL/MILITARY side of things, as in Okinawa and other Asian countries pre-20th century, it was commonplace to test one's skill in matches. But as the Warrior arts evolved, so, too, did the morality of it's practitioners. Although I too teach not to go looking for a fight, to really be prepared for if trouble comes knocking takes more than the no contact ethos in Tang Soo Do sparring today. Try it out. It's really a good way to figure out what may happen out in the street with an aggressor, but it's not the only thing the martial arts is about. Remember, the real battle is inside.


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## MBuzzy (Oct 19, 2008)

Muwubu16858 said:


> Truthfully, in the spirit of the art, it is wrong. However, if you take it from the MARTIAL/MILITARY side of things, as in Okinawa and other Asian countries pre-20th century, it was commonplace to test one's skill in matches. But as the Warrior arts evolved, so, too, did the morality of it's practitioners. Although I too teach not to go looking for a fight, to really be prepared for if trouble comes knocking takes more than the no contact ethos in Tang Soo Do sparring today. Try it out. It's really a good way to figure out what may happen out in the street with an aggressor, but it's not the only thing the martial arts is about. Remember, the real battle is inside.



Isn't an organized fight like this just sparring with contact?  If it were wrong, then why do so many organizations encourage and support sparring and tournaments?


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## Muwubu16858 (Oct 19, 2008)

I never said it was wrong to go into competition, per say. What should have came out was that in the opinion of the Hwang ethos of Moo Do, the competitive side of the art is not emphasised, and the mental training should be. You want my real opinion, as I said before





> Although I too teach not to go looking for a fight, to really be prepared for if trouble comes knocking takes more than the no contact ethos in Tang Soo Do sparring today


. I really believe that full contact competition is the way to go, especially since most TSD stylists probably wouldn't measure up in a real situation with today's method of teaching sparring. No offense. I think real elements of situations outside the dojang should be a main point in teaching when practicing self defense. Methods should be quick and effective, to subdue, and escape safely. I've seen sparring in TSD were one will back away, instead of side stepping to find a quick opening. Also, Il Soo Shik, as I've seen in Ho Shik Pak's Book, and some TSD buddies have shown me have too many movements to memorize, which will never be effective in real life. Sorry for the rant, but there needs to be a serious reconstruction of skill and technique in the TSD World for all types of sparring and self defense, as more and more MC Dojo's pop up to exsume our wallets from our pockets. Sorry for going a bit off topic, but as for Sam T, Do it. Train hard, fight yourself, so when you face your opponent, you are ready inside and out.


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## Nolerama (Oct 19, 2008)

From an MMA guy's POV, I'd have to say that a lot of MMA people fight in the ring to see how far they've come along in their training. And I agree with MBuzzy. Unless you round out your game in clinch and ground, you will find yourself in an unfavorable predicament on the ground, or clinched up.

Or you could knock the guy out first, right?


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## MBuzzy (Oct 19, 2008)

Nolerama said:


> Or you could knock the guy out first, right?



That would be my strategy, although I wouldn't put much stock in it.  Not only can those guys block well, but they can take a hit without flinching....


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## Makalakumu (Oct 19, 2008)

I think that if you go and do that fight, you'll come to a crossroads in your training.  Whether its boxing or MMA, TSD isn't going to fair very well.  Some of the kicks and punches will work, but there are a lot of pieces of the empty hand spectrum that are missing from most dojangs.  If you took your TSD and cross trained in Judo, I'd say you'll have a better chance.  Not the best, but at least you'd be prepared for some clinching and ground work.  

There are great ways of dealing with fighters of all stripes in our hyung, some of them illegal in MMA competitions, but most dojangs don't practice them.  Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## jks9199 (Oct 19, 2008)

Before you fight -- I'd suggest going and watching the event.  See what it really is about.  Find out what the rules are.  That may shape your decision...

Beyond that -- it's a personal decision.  Any martial art is really just a collection of physical technologies to fight.  It's only the baggage you attach that gives it greater meaning.  So you'll have to decide for yourself, based perhaps on what your teachers tell you.

I will suggest that if you try any sort of full contact match -- you'll have a much better understanding about the realities of your skills than you do at the moment.


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## Montecarlodrag (Oct 21, 2008)

For me, impropper use of any martial training is to hurt any person who is weak, has no MA training or is at disadvantage. If you use your skills to hurt somebody with no real threat to yourself, then you are wrong by the TSD codes.

But, if you enter a match like the one you describe, you are going to be evenly matched (or I would say, it's more likely you're getting your *** kicked), so, it isn't wrong because everybody you fight against is well trained and understand the risks.

For me it is just a tournament to test your skills. There's nothing wrong about it.
The only thing you must check before entering is your Dojang rules. Some Dojangs forbide such practices and you may find yourself in a delicate situation with your Sa Bom Nim if you don't ask before.

Have in mind that MMA matches are always for money, so the fights are brutal sometimes and you can be seriously injured as a result. I'd first go a few times to watch before making up my mind. I wouldn't risk myself with no reason.
Moreover, I see you are very young, so be careful with the things you can get yourself into.

Regards.


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## arnisador (Oct 21, 2008)

Sport is sport. Good luck!


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## foggymorning162 (Oct 21, 2008)

I feel it is OK because it is compatition not fighting but I would also have to agree that TSD won't stand up in a MMA ring not unless you have been cross training. If you watch pro matches and listen when they announce the opponants most of them have trained in more than one art plus now train full time MMA.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Oct 22, 2008)

If it were me, I wouldn't, but that's me. I train in TSD to defend myself, not to start fights. The aim of TSD, as far as I see it, is not to learn how to fight but how not to fight by ending the fight. That's the difference between a sport and a martial art. 

I say this especially because what you're describing sounds to me like a brawling fight club, not a martial arts tournament. In martial arts tournaments, the idea is that everyone competing is a martial artist and isn't in it just to fight. With that frame, it's a chance to sharpen your skills against an opponent who isn't in it to hurt you or to win money, but in the spirit of a fellow student. If it's just fighting to fight, that seems to me contrary to the TSD way.


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## Lynne (Oct 23, 2008)

Hey Sam,

I don't know if what you're suggesting is improper use of TSD or not but I can tell you something Grandmaster Byrne said.  He said (more or less) that TSD practitioners could benefit from MMA experience, that is some grappling.  He said if someone were to get us on the ground, it would be all over with (providing we don't have grappling experience).  In other words, if a Judo, wresting, or BJJ guy takes you down, he's going to win.

It could be a very nasty fight for you.  Think of people like Brock Lesnar or Tito Ortiz.

Someone suggested you speak with you Sa Bu Nim.  It would be interesting to see what his/her philosophy is.


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## rafael.ohalloran (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree with maunakumu. Tang Soo Do (most traditional martial arts probably) is dirty fighting by MMA standards. In MMA you can't poke at the eyes, kick the groin , bend fingers backward... so whatever you bring into an MMA match won't really be TSD. You'll need to learn the sport, which means groundwork, clinch, etc...

That said, I wouldn't do MMA because I don't believe in trying to knock out another human being for sport.

-rafael


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## Gi1 (Nov 11, 2008)

I don't belive there is anything wrong after all it's 2 consenting adults, you both know what you are getting into, But I don't feel that it is in fact any use of Tang Soo Do. TSD is about more than fighting for some hollow reward (trophy or money). Don't kid yourself that you are using your art in there. Your Art should be about respect and development of spirit and characteur, the fighting is just something that falls in place along the way. Ask yourself why you are doing it, is it ego. If so that's not the ultimate goal for a true Martial Artist. If you want to fight then fair enough it not Bad as such, but being a good martial Artist means that you don't have to.


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