# What to do if people train too hard



## Nev (Aug 21, 2017)

Hi - first time poster here

I am the only female in my class of no gi/bjj but I mostly train another martial art (one stripe white belt in bjj). I stopped doing bjj especially no gi because I found men would constantly try to smash me to the point that I was just avoiding getting seriously hurt.

I've asked my friends about it and they said to just ask people to ease back a bit but I don't want to be labelled that woman people have to go easier on.

It is not everyone, it is certain strong guys - particularly the newer ones (I'm sure everyone here has experienced it) - unfortunately I don't have the strength or technique to avoid it.

I hardly every do bjj but every now and then I think oh maybe it is better now - so last night again I tried, and there was a really strong guy who caught my arm and was rolling sideways with my arm caught just to get the submission - my elbow was very close to breaking and I yelled out tap tap tap but he even delayed letting go - I don't think it was on purpose but it was a real dick move and I was annoyed as who wants a broken elbow because of some idiot.

Anyway - I want to be able to train no gi but I feel like every time I try I'm scouting out the few people who wont hurt me, which is a shame because I find it quite fun.

Any advice? or should I just not do it anymore?


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## Eric_H (Aug 21, 2017)

There are three things potentially at play here:

1) The amount of control expected of students - if you feel that injury is likely due to partners acting inappropriately, you have to talk to your coach, leave the school or refuse to partner with certain classmates. 
2) The activity itself - When I kick box, I get punched/kicked in the face. I may end up with broken bones etc because of this. If this is a major concern, I should stop the activity and pursue something else.
3) Your own in/experience - You may or may not be overreacting. This activity may be something you are not comfortable with, but it ultimately less threatening than perceived. 

Only you can say what's right for you, and what you are comfortable with. I would talk with your coach privately, and if there is no resolution, get out of there. Nobody wants to see you or anyone else injured in training.


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## Nev (Aug 21, 2017)

Eric_H said:


> There are three things potentially at play here:
> 
> 1) The amount of control expected of students - if you feel that injury is likely due to partners acting inappropriately, you have to talk to your coach, leave the school or refuse to partner with certain classmates.
> 2) The activity itself - When I kick box, I get punched/kicked in the face. I may end up with broken bones etc because of this. If this is a major concern, I should stop the activity and pursue something else.
> ...



Thanks Eric. I think I have more of an issue in no Gi because of the lack of gi making it easier for people to grab limbs and twist them and some people get too focused on twisting limbs to get the submission. The other problem I have is neck cranks where people get their arm around my neck and yank it and my neck pops - this is a lot easier in no gi because of the lack of a collar.

Maybe for me no Gi is just too risky given I have no real love for it and I prefer the martial art I do anyway - its just we have increased the number of no gi classes now due to popularity, it seems to be the way martial arts is heading.


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## Nev (Aug 21, 2017)

now that I think of it maybe I could be submitting far earlier too but I always feel if I can get out of it why give up


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

Nev said:


> Hi - first time poster here
> 
> I am the only female in my class of no gi/bjj but I mostly train another martial art (one stripe white belt in bjj). I stopped doing bjj especially no gi because I found men would constantly try to smash me to the point that I was just avoiding getting seriously hurt.
> 
> ...


The advice your friends gave was good advice. Sometimes people just assume what they are doing is fine, until they are told differently. That's especially true of relatively inexperienced folks. I'd be surprised to find an experienced grappler who didn't know how to play with some control, but new folks are dangerous, because they don't have great control and don't yet know what makes people say "ow".


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

Nev said:


> now that I think of it maybe I could be submitting far earlier too but I always feel if I can get out of it why give up


That is the other side of it. I teach students to submit early, until they know their partner will be cautious and exercise control. They let me take pins and locks a lot further than they let each other take them, and that's a good decision.

So, when someone gets a lock (especially a neck crank) on, and it feels solid, just tap out. If you get a partner you know is capable of executing with a very slow finish, you can fight a little longer.


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## Nev (Aug 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That is the other side of it. I teach students to submit early, until they know their partner will be cautious and exercise control. They let me take pins and locks a lot further than they let each other take them, and that's a good decision.
> 
> So, when someone gets a lock (especially a neck crank) on, and it feels solid, just tap out. If you get a partner you know is capable of executing with a very slow finish, you can fight a little longer.



Yes - this is all sound advice.

In hindsight it is probably an issue with myself and my ego - I hate being crushed because I'm not as strong as a man and so will fight until the bitter end and not ask anyone to ease up if they are going too hard. My friends do say I need to tap far earlier so I suppose if I do get injured it would be my own fault.

That said I don't know how the smaller guys put up with it, I have done bjj long enough and I am as tall as a man so I can just get out of submissions but I often feel sorry for the smaller guys that just start (we have a 15 yr old that weighs 40kg) - probably why they leave soon after.


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## jobo (Aug 21, 2017)

the simple answer would seem to be, get stronger


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

Nev said:


> Yes - this is all sound advice.
> 
> In hindsight it is probably an issue with myself and my ego - I hate being crushed because I'm not as strong as a man and so will fight until the bitter end and not ask anyone to ease up if they are going too hard. My friends do say I need to tap far earlier so I suppose if I do get injured it would be my own fault.
> 
> That said I don't know how the smaller guys put up with it, I have done bjj long enough and I am as tall as a man so I can just get out of submissions but I often feel sorry for the smaller guys that just start (we have a 15 yr old that weighs 40kg) - probably why they leave soon after.


Part of what's so nice about BJJ is that someone with a high level of skill can handle someone who is much larger (but not as skilled). It just takes a while to get to that point. There are even some advantages for the smaller folks (harder to close off their avenues of escape).


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 21, 2017)

jobo said:


> the simple answer would seem to be, get stronger


A simple answer, perhaps, but not a right answer, IMO.


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## Nev (Aug 21, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Part of what's so nice about BJJ is that someone with a high level of skill can handle someone who is much larger (but not as skilled). It just takes a while to get to that point. There are even some advantages for the smaller folks (harder to close off their avenues of escape).



You are right - my instructor is the bantamweight champ in the nation. 

But - it takes a long time to get there, and in the meantime I don't want to suffer any injuries. 

As for getting stronger, I already took up crossfit and gained muscle hoping it would help, but ultimately I will never have the same muscle mass as a man.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

How hard are you going OP? If you are bull at a gate. Then they will be.

We have a thread on that.


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

It's Jiu Jitsu you're going to get injuries that's just how it goes. Would you rather guys don't even try against you and you not learn how to deal with them. If you hardly ever do it no wonder you're not improving and when you say "smashing" you does that mean you're getting out positioned because what do you expect when you're new, it's the same for everyone.

If you don't want to tell people you're problems then it'll never get sorted so either tell them, or don't tell them and just get on with it or leave and do something else. Those are your options


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's Jiu Jitsu you're going to get injuries that's just how it goes. Would you rather guys don't even try against you and you not learn how to deal with them. If you hardly ever do it no wonder you're not improving and when you say "smashing" you does that mean you're getting out positioned because what do you expect when you're new, it's the same for everyone.
> 
> If you don't want to tell people you're problems then it'll never get sorted so either tell them, or don't tell them and just get on with it or leave and do something else. Those are your options



There's a big difference between being beaten by someone else's better technique and being snowballed over by someone a lot bigger than you using brute force. It sounds to me like the OP is being matched up with fellow newbies who are a lot stronger and don't know how to control their strength, or just don't care to because they want to win. 

In my personal opinion this is an instructor issue more than anything else. At the lower levels the instructor should be impressing on people the need for technique over strength and be closely monitoring the free rolling to make sure excessive force isn't used.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> It's Jiu Jitsu you're going to get injuries that's just how it goes. Would you rather guys don't even try against you and you not learn how to deal with them. If you hardly ever do it no wonder you're not improving and when you say "smashing" you does that mean you're getting out positioned because what do you expect when you're new, it's the same for everyone.
> 
> If you don't want to tell people you're problems then it'll never get sorted so either tell them, or don't tell them and just get on with it or leave and do something else. Those are your options



There's a big difference between being beaten by someone else's better technique and being snowballed over by someone a lot bigger than you using brute force. It sounds to me like the OP is being matched up with fellow newbies who are a lot stronger and don't know how to control their strength, or just don't care to because they want to win. 

In my personal opinion this is an instructor issue more than anything else. At the lower levels the instructor should be impressing on people the need for technique over strength and be closely monitoring the free rolling to make sure excessive force isn't used.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

I doubt the OP is going at it like a bull in the china shop, it certainly doesn't sound like it so I hope she doesn't take it that she's being blamed. In my experience as a female doing no gi male beginners often think they can muscle their way through rolling, they will do this with all partners. Often two male  beginners will end up collapsed on the mats because they've used up all their energy up trying to use their strength. Add into that a female partner who potentially could 'beat' them and they aren't ready to be bested by a female then you have the situation the OP has described. Everyone needs to learn to tap, our fighters tap quite quickly because not to do so is stupid when an injury might occur and stop them fighting. It's enough to know the technique works, you don't need to prove it with injuries.
Our fighters understand that rolling with less strong people makes them use techniques and not strength because when they fight competitively they will be matched with someone the same strength and size as them so there's no advantage without good techniques. As has been said by Midnight-shadow this is an instructor issue and should be taken up with them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> I doubt the OP is going at it like a bull in the china shop, it certainly doesn't sound like it so I hope she doesn't take it that she's being blamed. In my experience as a female doing no gi male beginners often think they can muscle their way through rolling, they will do this with all partners. Often two male  beginners will end up collapsed on the mats because they've used up all their energy up trying to use their strength. Add into that a female partner who potentially could 'beat' them and they aren't ready to be bested by a female then you have the situation the OP has described. Everyone needs to learn to tap, our fighters tap quite quickly because not to do so is stupid when an injury might occur and stop them fighting. It's enough to know the technique works, you don't need to prove it with injuries.
> Our fighters understand that rolling with less strong people makes them use techniques and not strength because when they fight competitively they will be matched with someone the same strength and size as them so there's no advantage without good techniques. As has been said by Midnight-shadow this is an instructor issue and should be taken up with them.


By her own post, she's probably more aggressive than most, at least in her resistance to submissions. That's a good thing, as long as she dials it back to communicate levels with her partner.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> By her own post, she's probably more aggressive than most, at least in her resistance to submissions. That's a good thing, as long as she dials it back to communicate levels with her partner.



That's not what I meant, my comments were in answer to DB's post which practically blamed her for charging in being the aggressor rather than her resisting more than some.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> A simple answer, perhaps, but not a right answer, IMO.


it might not be the complete answer, but if she is being over powered by beginners, that being her self considerably stronger would reduce this


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> Thanks Eric. I think I have more of an issue in no Gi because of the lack of gi making it easier for people to grab limbs and twist them and some people get too focused on twisting limbs to get the submission. The other problem I have is neck cranks where people get their arm around my neck and yank it and my neck pops - this is a lot easier in no gi because of the lack of a collar.
> 
> Maybe for me no Gi is just too risky given I have no real love for it and I prefer the martial art I do anyway - its just we have increased the number of no gi classes now due to popularity, it seems to be the way martial arts is heading.


If you don't like getting put in submissions then Jiu Jitsu definentely isn't for you


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That's not what I meant, my comments were in answer to DB's post which practically blamed her for charging in being the aggressor rather than her resisting more than some.


I get that. I don't think he was trying to blame her - rather make sure she was aware her entry affects the opponent's responses. It seems common-sense, but I often have to remind students of this when they bring a hard and fast attack at me, then are surprised they get blocked hard or fall down fast.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> If you don't like getting put in submissions then Jiu Jitsu definentely isn't for you


I don't think most folks really like being in those things.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it might not be the complete answer, but if she is being over powered by beginners, that being her self considerably stronger would reduce this


It will not stop folks from overcoming the submissions. Adding more strength to her responses is likely to do the opposite.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> We have a thread on that.





gpseymour said:


> I get that. I don't think he was trying to blame her - rather make sure she was aware her entry affects the opponent's responses. It seems common-sense, but I often have to remind students of this when they bring a hard and fast attack at me, then are surprised they get blocked hard or fall down fast.




Have you read the thread he was referring to? He is likening the OP to the female mentioned in the OP on that one, an over aggressive female.


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think most folks really like being in those things.


No but most people who are into Jiu Jitsu don't go onto martial art forums complaining about being put in them


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Have you read the thread he was referring to? He is likening the OP to the female mentioned in the OP on that one, an over aggressive female.


He asked how hard she was going, which implies to me that he hasn't made a judgement. In his experience, someone who ends up in that position sometimes contributes to it by going hard (or, looking from the other angle, can help alleviate it by being more controlled). I didn't read any harsh judgement of her in his post - just. A question and an explanation of the reason for the question.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> No but most people who are into Jiu Jitsu don't go onto martial art forums complaining about being put in them


She's not complaining about being in submissions. She's complaining about injuries from them. I'd complain about that, too, if it were a regular occurrence.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It will not stop folks from overcoming the submissions. Adding more strength to her responses is likely to do the opposite.


I'm sorry you've lost me with that, having more strengh will make it worse how does that work?


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> He asked how hard she was going, which implies to me that he hasn't made a judgement. In his experience, someone who ends up in that position sometimes contributes to it by going hard (or, looking from the other angle, can help alleviate it by being more controlled). I didn't read any harsh judgement of her in his post - just. A question and an explanation of the reason for the question.



He linked it with the other thread where someone was complaining about women and their lack of training and being overly aggressive. If he hadn't done that then the post here would seem innocuous.


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> She's not complaining about being in submissions. She's complaining about injuries from them. I'd complain about that, too, if it were a regular occurrence.


There's a very easy way to get out of submissions before they cause any type of injury.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There's a very easy way to get out of submissions before they cause any type of injury.





Nev said:


> my elbow was very close to breaking and I yelled out tap tap tap but he even delayed letting go -




She did tap but one guy delayed before letting go. This though because he's competed and has got into the habit of not letting go until the ref has confirmed it as a submission or he could just be not very good .


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## Headhunter (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> She did tap but one guy delayed before letting go. This though because he's competed and has got into the habit of not letting go until the ref has confirmed it as a submission or he could just be not very good .


She also said she yelled out tap. Which I never do unless it's the only option as if it's a busy class it'll be noisy with everyone else working or talking so they may not hear. Anyway the smart thing to do especially if you don't have much experience is tap early. If you're in a position you know you're not getting out of just tap early. It's not worth the risk in my eyes I mean it's only it's not a competition you don't need to hold on for ages


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sorry you've lost me with that, having more strengh will make it worse how does that work?


Try reading it again.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> She did tap but one guy delayed before letting go. This though because he's competed and has got into the habit of not letting go until the ref has confirmed it as a submission or he could just be not very good .



And this is the part that worries me the most, and makes me wonder where the instructor was in all this. In my opinion when it comes to free sparring/rolling, either the instructor should be directly supervising the beginners, or if that is not possible then pair the beginners up with senior students who can control their strength. Not only this but if the beginners goes too hard, the senior student should be skilled enough to withstand it whereas a fellow beginner would be overwhelmed.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> There's a very easy way to get out of submissions before they cause any type of injury.


Which was one of the suggestions, and something the OP agreed might be a good idea.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Try reading it again.


it makes no sense unless being weaker is an advantage, which seems unlikely, she is being over powered by beginners who being male are,somewhat stronger than her. If she was,somewhat,stronger herself then they wouldn't be over powering her, hence the submission problem would not,arise


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it makes no sense unless being weaker is an advantage, which seems unlikely, she is being over powered by beginners who being male are,somewhat stronger than her. If she was,somewhat,stronger herself then they wouldn't be over powering her, hence the submission problem would not,arise


Again, read the actual post. I never suggested being stronger was a problem, but that using it would be. Since using it would exacerbate the problem, strength doesn't become a solution, though it's a good recommendation as a general practice.


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> it makes no sense unless being weaker is an advantage, which seems unlikely, she is being over powered by beginners who being male are,somewhat stronger than her. If she was,somewhat,stronger herself then they wouldn't be over powering her, hence the submission problem would not,arise


And what would be best for her during the time period it takes for her to become stronger? The strength she will need isn't just being physically stronger...it is more of how and when to use one's strength that is needed. What does she do to learn that? Is physical strength needed in the grappling game...certainly. But if it is just being somewhat stronger that is required then there is no real reason to learn good and proper techniques. Just getting stronger will do.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Danny T said:


> And what would be best for her during the time period it takes for her to become stronger? The strength she will need isn't just being physically stronger...it is more of how and when to use one's strength that is needed. What does she do to learn that? Is physical strength needed in the grappling game...certainly. But if it is just being somewhat stronger that is required then there is no real reason to learn good and proper techniques. Just getting stronger will do.


she getting done over by complete beginners, clearly her skills are insufficient to cope with greater strengh, she should indeed continue to develop her skills, but that may still not be sufficient to over come the strengh deficit , so one way or another she needs to increase her strengh. Plus getting stronger is generaly a quicker process that making a big jump in skill


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> one stripe white belt in bjj).





jobo said:


> she getting done over by complete beginners



She is little more than a beginner herself.Jiu Jitsu White Belt Requirements - First Stripe


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> She is little more than a beginner herself.Jiu Jitsu White Belt Requirements - First Stripe


 a little more is in fact MORE than being a complete beginner,


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> a little more is in fact MORE than being a complete beginner,



Not when the complete beginner is much bigger, weighs more and is stronger. I have a female friend, she's fought in the UFC as well as on other promotions, she's damn good but a much larger stronger man can hold her down and submit her, so she has to be clever and make sure he doesn't get that hold/technique on her, that she's gets her techniques in first and that's where being little more than a beginner comes in, the OP isn't experienced or knowledgeable enough at this time to avoid being caught.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not when the complete beginner is much bigger, weighs more and is stronger. I have a female friend, she's fought in the UFC as well as on other promotions, she's damn good but a much larger stronger man can hold her down and submit her, so she has to be clever and make sure he doesn't get that hold/technique on her, that she's gets her techniques in first and that's where being little more than a beginner comes in, the OP isn't experienced or knowledgeable enough at this time to avoid being caught.


well if she was stronger she wouldn't have,so much trouble would she. ?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> You are right - my instructor is the bantamweight champ in the nation.
> 
> But - it takes a long time to get there, and in the meantime I don't want to suffer any injuries.
> 
> As for getting stronger, I already took up crossfit and gained muscle hoping it would help, but ultimately I will never have the same muscle mass as a man.



All martial arts require a certain amount of strength and stamina.  But grappling is more about technique.  Learn the techniques, then the counters if there are any, while paying attention to what has already been said.  Especially about talking to the instructor.


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well if she was stronger she wouldn't have,so much trouble would she. ?



Not sure who you are talking about, my friend is extremely strong but it doesn't matter how strong you are if you are outsized and outweighed by someone who trains to be strong and/or is naturally strong. That is regardless of gender. Flat jockeys are small but very strong however they wouldn't be able to out grapple a rugby forward so it comes down to techniques to make sure you don't get caught by a bigger person, if you don't know the techniques yet then you will get flattened when the bigger heavier person lies on top of you, they don't even need strength.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Not sure who you are talking about, my friend is extremely strong but it doesn't matter how strong you are if you are outsized and outweighed by someone who trains to be strong and/or is naturally strong. That is regardless of gender. Flat jockeys are small but very strong however they wouldn't be able to out grapple a rugby forward so it comes down to techniques to make sure you don't get caught by a bigger person, if you don't know the techniques yet then you will get flattened when the bigger heavier person lies on top of you, they don't even need strength.


of course it matters, if someone has,a,strengh advantage on you and you make yourself,stronger, they then have less of,an advantage or no advantage at all


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> of course it matters, if someone has,a,strengh advantage on you and you make yourself,stronger, they then have less of,an advantage or no advantage at all



Well that wasn't the point, the point actually being that people who are over a foot taller and several stones heavier than you who also lift weights are always going to have an advantage, you cut the advantage by being faster, more experienced and having better technique, you are never going to rule out their advantage just by 'getting stronger' because if you smaller and weigh less.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Well that wasn't the point, the point actually being that people who are over a foot taller and several stones heavier than you who also lift weights are always going to have an advantage, you cut the advantage by being faster, more experienced and having better technique, you are never going to rule out their advantage just by 'getting stronger' because if you smaller and weigh less.


strengh has nothing to do with how tall you are or how much you weigh. But if you get stronger they have less advantage. I'm not sure why you are even arguing this, its self evidently true
in the case of the op all we know is the guy was stronger than her, if she increases her strengh he would have less of an advantage, maybe no advantage


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> strengh has nothing to do with how tall you are or how much you weigh. But if you get stronger they have less advantage. I'm not sure why you are even arguing this, its self evidently true
> in the case of the op all we know is the guy was stronger than her, if she increases her strengh he would have less of an advantage, maybe no advantage



You are avoiding the point I made about taller heavier people versus small light ones. A six foot, sixteen stone man doesn't have to do much to squash a five foot six stone girl however strong she may be. It's such a pat answer 'get stronger' that avoids actually looking at the facts, being glib doesn't help the OP.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You are avoiding the point I made about taller heavier people versus small light ones. A six foot, sixteen stone man doesn't have to do much to squash a five foot six stone girl however strong she may be. It's such a pat answer 'get stronger' that avoids actually looking at the facts, being glib doesn't help the OP.


so clever clogs how tall and how heavy is the op? How tall and heavy was the guy ?Your of on one of you flights of fantasy, inventing scenario to fit your view, five pounds you mention the army in your next ten posts , you've never got future than that,,,,


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> so clever clogs how tall and how heavy is the op? How tall and heavy was the guy ?Your of on one of you flights of fantasy, inventing scenario to fit your view, five pounds you mention the army in your next ten posts , you've never got future than that,,,,



Ah deja moo, more BS just because you can't answer my questions. I do wish though you'd actually make sense though, I don't mind intelligently put insults but really ' you never got future than that'? Still you never disappoint, your default position is troll, troll and troll again.
anyway I'm off to watch England ladies beat the French in the Rugby World Cup. Allez Angleterre!


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## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

Yay, England Rugby ladies beat France so it's New Zealand v England in the Final. USA v France for third and fourth places.


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## Danny T (Aug 22, 2017)

Love it...just get stronger. Sound advice.
It's ok when you get hurt. Just makes you stronger. 
It's ok when others can physically overwhelm you and you tap but they don't release the hold. Just get stronger.
It's ok when others are physically bigger and stronger than you, don't concern yourself with learning good techniques with good training partners. Just get stronger.
Strength is what you need. Sage advice.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Love it...just get stronger. Sound advice.
> It's ok when you get hurt. Just makes you stronger.
> It's ok when others can physically overwhelm you and you tap but they don't release the hold. Just get stronger.
> It's ok when others are physically bigger and stronger than you, don't concern yourself with learning good techniques with good training partners. Just get stronger.
> Strength is what you need. Sage advice.





Danny T said:


> Love it...just get stronger. Sound advice.
> It's ok when you get hurt. Just makes you stronger.
> It's ok when others can physically overwhelm you and you tap but they don't release the hold. Just get stronger.
> It's ok when others are physically bigger and stronger than you, don't concern yourself with learning good techniques with good training partners. Just get stronger.
> Strength is what you need. Sage advice.


i didn't say JUST get stronger, but getting stronger is sage,advice for most physical activities, if you are going against people who are bigger and stronger, get stronger and then its only their bigness   you have to contend with.

there is a marked anti strengh/ fitness lobby on here who seem to think that weak boys and girls can beat strong boys and girls if they work on their techneque for long enough, well not if the strong boys and girls are also learning the same techniques they won't


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Ah deja moo, more BS just because you can't answer my questions. I do wish though you'd actually make sense though, I don't mind intelligently put insults but really ' you never got future than that'? Still you never disappoint, your default position is troll, troll and troll again.
> anyway I'm off to watch England ladies beat the French in the Rugby World Cup. Allez Angleterre!


really you picking me up on a typo, whilst writing deja moo,


----------



## kuniggety (Aug 22, 2017)

Jobo, you're being a little silly with this. I do BJJ and consider myself a pretty good blue belt and I can usually hang with small male purple belts (the next belt up) and female purple belts simply belt I'm bigger and stronger. Sure, a girl can hit the gym and get more fit but unless she's in like the top  .1% of the female population, she will never be stronger than me. I will always have that advantage. I've also rolled with black belts who I have 40+ lbs on that can throw me around like a rag doll. At some point, the skill will overcome the size difference but especially when there is a large disparity it will take years and years of practice to overcome.

I think smashing a small white belt is a dick move. Do I smash the female purple belts? Yeah, they can take it but that white belt is just going to get smashed and have no idea how to deal with it. What did the dude prove? That he can overpower someone much smaller that also is relatively untrained? I don't see the point.

Young males who are new to BJJ can be the worst to roll with. They don't know enough technique and so tend to try to muscle everything.

Original Poster, I think you're just going to have to be more selective about who you roll with and be vocal about what you want. If I want to roll light, I tell the person. If I have an injury, I tell them. It's your training time as much as anyone else's. You can flat out not roll with certain people... I would just be polite about it. I know you don't want to be that person but, trust me, it's okay.


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Jobo, you're being a little silly with this. I do BJJ and consider myself a pretty good blue belt and I can usually hang with small male purple belts (the next belt up) and female purple belts simply belt I'm bigger and stronger. Sure, a girl can hit the gym and get more fit but unless she's in like the top  .1% of the female population, she will never be stronger than me. I will always have that advantage. I've also rolled with black belts who I have 40+ lbs on that can throw me around like a rag doll. At some point, the skill will overcome the size difference but especially when there is a large disparity it will take years and years of practice to overcome.
> 
> I think smashing a small white belt is a dick move. Do I smash the female purple belts? Yeah, they can take it but that white belt is just going to get smashed and have no idea how to deal with it. What did the dude prove? That he can overpower someone much smaller that also is relatively untrained? I don't see the point.
> 
> Young males who are new to BJJ can be the worst to roll with. They don't know enough technique and so tend to try to muscle everything.


i wouldn't be so sure, females are about 15% down on strengh against a male who trains,as hard as she does. If she trains 15% harder she can match him with ease.
if you are not training specifically for,strengh than a female who does will quite easily be stronger than you.
you should see the weight some of those skinny cross fit girls,are throwing about


----------



## kuniggety (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> i wouldn't be so sure, females are about 15% down on strengh against a male who trains,as hard as she does. If she trains 15% harder she can match him with ease.
> if you are not training specifically for,strengh than a female who does will quite easily be stronger than you.
> you should see the weight some of those skinny cross fit girls,are throwing about



I'm not sure where you got that statistic. You can look up pretty much any lifting (one form of measurement of strength) statistic and see a greater than 15% disparity between the two sexes at the same weight. Add in the fact that your average male is 5" taller and 30-40 lbs heavier and that disparity just gets wider and wider.

 There gap in strength difference between your average man and woman is huge. As an approx 200 lbs guy with a deadlift of 385ish... it's considered meh/intermediate. A female of my size (let alone the fact that most are much smaller than me) would be elite status lifters.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> really you picking me up on a typo, whilst writing deja moo,



You know, I hate explaining jokes....and you said on another thread you had a sense of humour! right... Deja moo, a play on deja vu only it's 'moo' because it's BS, get it?


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> I'm not sure where you got that statistic. You can look up pretty much any lifting (one form of measurement of strength) statistic and see a greater than 15% disparity between the two sexes at the same weight. Add in the fact that your average male is 5" taller and 30-40 lbs heavier and that disparity just gets wider and wider.
> 
> There gap in strength difference between your average man and woman is huge. As an approx 200 lbs guy with a deadlift of 385ish... it's considered meh/intermediate. A female of my size (let alone the fact that most are much smaller than me) would be elite status lifters.


why does being taller and heavier make them stronger, that's the same nonsense tea was coming out with


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> You know, I hate explaining jokes....and you said on another thread you had a sense of humour! right... Deja moo, a play on deja vu only it's 'moo' because it's BS, get it?


no you made a typo, .


----------



## kuniggety (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> why does being taller and heavier make them stronger, that's the same nonsense tea was coming out with



That's just basic human physiology... the larger the frame, the stronger you are/your capacity to grow and carry muscle goes up. Look at any scale of strength and see how it goes up the larger a person is. They have weight classes in sports (including lifting) for a very good reason. I don't care how much a 100 lbs woman works out... I will be able to out lift her and throw her across a room and I'm not even a big gym rat.


----------



## Steve (Aug 22, 2017)

To the OP, don't feel pressured to roll with jerks who want to smash you. Take care of yourself.  There is a lbalance you need to find for yourself between pushing yourself and just getting hammered.

I recommend looking for opportunities to roll with upper belts whenever possible, and also look for people who are around your size.  Also talk to small dudes and the other women in your school or online for advice and support.  The female BJJ community is mighty.  And if you stick with it, you will find you're part of a pretty awesome group of amazing people.

Enjoy yourself.  Push yourself but remember to enjoy yourself and do what you need to to keep it fun.

Also remember that the jerk white belt who seems to enjoy crushing you will probably quit before he gets his blue belt, so don't be afraid to decline to roll with him.


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## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> That's just basic human physiology... the larger the frame, the stronger you are/your capacity to grow and carry muscle goes up. Look at any scale of strength and see how it goes up the larger a person is. They have weight classes in sports (including lifting) for a very good reason. I don't care how much a 100 lbs woman works out... I will be able to out lift her and throw her across a room and I'm not even a big gym rat.


well that not true, the larger you are does not mean the,stronger you are or that you have a greater capacity to grow muscle


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## kuniggety (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> well that not true, the larger you are does not mean the,stronger you are or that you have a greater capacity to grow muscle



Okay dude, you know more than every competitive lifting and sporting league in the world.


----------



## Anarax (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> Hi - first time poster here
> 
> I am the only female in my class of no gi/bjj but I mostly train another martial art (one stripe white belt in bjj). I stopped doing bjj especially no gi because I found men would constantly try to smash me to the point that I was just avoiding getting seriously hurt.
> 
> ...



It's not fair if someone bigger and stronger than you is upping the intensity more than usual just because you are smaller and weaker. I've trained with both men and women in BJJ, I always tried to train the same with both, with belt ranked taken into consideration of course. That way the women get good realistic training. However; it isn't right going extra hard on you just because you're a woman, if that's the case. Especially if they aren't letting go immediately if you tap, that's a really low thing to do. There's a difference in training hard and training foolishly, putting yourself in the situation you described sounds like a serious injury waiting to happen. 

I would speak to the instructor about it, tell him that you like to train but inform him of the situation. He should keep a close eye on you rolling with the guys, that way he can interject if he sees the things you've described. If he doesn't do anything about it look for another school/instructor. An instructor should always have the safety and well-being of their students in mind.

Good luck in your training


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Have you read the thread he was referring to? He is likening the OP to the female mentioned in the OP on that one, an over aggressive female.



Yes. If she is over aggressive she will get manhandled.

Not sure what the issue is.

You may have noticed I don't tend to coddle people.


----------



## jobo (Aug 22, 2017)

kuniggety said:


> Okay dude, you know more than every competitive lifting and sporting league in the world.


I'm sure they would disagree with you as well, strong people are often big, but not all big people are strong


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> I'm sorry you've lost me with that, having more strengh will make it worse how does that work?



You can't really strength your way out if you are always going to have less strength. Yes strength is good but won't solve this problem.


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## drop bear (Aug 22, 2017)

jobo said:


> why does being taller and heavier make them stronger, that's the same nonsense tea was coming out with



If you physically have more mass you will be stronger. That is why there are weight classes.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yes. If she is over aggressive she will get manhandled.
> 
> Not sure what the issue is.
> 
> You may have noticed I don't tend to coddle people.


Okay.  Let's see how well I do channeling Tez3:

"I don't know what you're going on about, dear boy.  I don't coddle people, and I tell it like it is.  I don't know what it's like where you live, but here we speak plainly and don't molly coddle.  If you earn our respect, it is well deserved, and we have little time for small minded people spewing nonsense.  Our squaddies are hard as nails, as are their families, who have all experienced hardship unknown in other parts of the world.

The issue is that foolish people are ignorant and enjoy trolling threads, stirring up trouble and never contribute anything constructive to a thread.  And with that, I think I've had just about enough of you.

And by the way, I'm not angry.  I'm also not arguing." 

Let's see how close I am.  

Tez3, if you do see this, I'm teasing you.


----------



## Nev (Aug 22, 2017)

oooh-kay - not sure how this turned into 4 pages of argueing.

To clarify I am not overly aggressive the issue I have is with newer stronger men. Mr almost arm breaker I have noticed in the past is far too hard and just tries to muscle his way into a submission so I have avoided him in the past, but yesterday it was only me and him left and it felt rude to just walk away. I suppose I could say I was taking a break but I decided to give him a chance. He has been doing it for 6 months and doesn't compete but I doubt anyone has told him he goes too hard. I spoke to one of my male friends and they agreed he goes too hard but they just laughed it off.

In my gym there is not really an supervision or assistance for the newbies in bjj, they just turn up, get bashed up and eventually learn something. I suppose the instructor thinks everyone else can manage themselves but another girl also quit doing bjj because she is little and got tired of getting people fling their entire weight at her to try smash her. I thought I had a better chance then her since I'm tall but my limbs are long and easily twisted, lol.

I disagree with the get stronger/better statement. My first few weeks doing bjj some strong kid grabbed my arm in an arm bar and twisted my hand around, tearing my shoulder muscle - I was in a sling for 2 weeks. When I came back and asked him why he did that he said "I think I learnt it in taekwondo or something". If I had been trying to fight off the arm bar it would have been worse - this was when my arm was quite floppy. Though perhaps your statement didn't mean stronger as in being able to fight off submissions harder, but just getting more skilled. Which in that case I have noticed since I've been doing it for a year and a half I can avoid situations like that, but as I said before, my issue is with the bigger, musclier men who use all their force.

I only cross train bjj, but I've basically stopped because of the lack of control some people have, it becomes too much of a scan of the class to see who I should avoid and who is relatively safe. Too much work.


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## Steve (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> oooh-kay - not sure how this turned into 4 pages of argueing.
> 
> To clarify I am not overly aggressive the issue I have is with newer stronger men. Mr almost arm breaker I have noticed in the past is far too hard and just tries to muscle his way into a submission so I have avoided him in the past, but yesterday it was only me and him left and it felt rude to just walk away. I suppose I could say I was taking a break but I decided to give him a chance. He has been doing it for 6 months and doesn't compete but I doubt anyone has told him he goes too hard. I spoke to one of my male friends and they agreed he goes too hard but they just laughed it off.
> 
> ...


I hope you don't stop training BJJ.  Hang in there.  And ignore the sniping and backbiting.  Its all in good fun.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 22, 2017)

Nev said:


> oooh-kay - not sure how this turned into 4 pages of argueing.
> 
> To clarify I am not overly aggressive the issue I have is with newer stronger men. Mr almost arm breaker I have noticed in the past is far too hard and just tries to muscle his way into a submission so I have avoided him in the past, but yesterday it was only me and him left and it felt rude to just walk away. I suppose I could say I was taking a break but I decided to give him a chance. He has been doing it for 6 months and doesn't compete but I doubt anyone has told him he goes too hard. I spoke to one of my male friends and they agreed he goes too hard but they just laughed it off.
> 
> ...



My advice then would be to talk to the instructor about this and if nothing changes then just leave. At the end of the day you have a life and job outside of MA and if you are getting constantly injured during training, it could severely affect your life. If I had my arm in a sling for 2 weeks I wouldn't be able to work at all during that time, meaning I wouldn't get paid and probably put me behind on my bills, etc. It's simply not worth it.


----------



## Nev (Aug 22, 2017)

Midnight-shadow said:


> My advice then would be to talk to the instructor about this and if nothing changes then just leave. At the end of the day you have a life and job outside of MA and if you are getting constantly injured during training, it could severely affect your life. If I had my arm in a sling for 2 weeks I wouldn't be able to work at all during that time, meaning I wouldn't get paid and probably put me behind on my bills, etc. It's simply not worth it.



I am not getting constantly injured but on some occassions it is too close for comfort. I think I will just stop doing no gi anyway because my instructor would probably say something like keep training and get stronger.


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## jobo (Aug 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If you physically have more mass you will be stronger. That is why there are weight classes.


that's only if a good % of you extra mass is made up of muscle. Just being fat doesn't make you stronger


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## jobo (Aug 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You can't really strength your way out if you are always going to have less strength. Yes strength is good but won't solve this problem.


, if this problem sis the one the op gave then yes it might.
people who don't train,strengh are general only using about 30%of the,strengh their existing muscles can give.

if that applies to both the male and female then they both have massive scope for improvement, if we say for arguments sake that she only has 75% of his strength, then she can easily double that giving her,150% of an untrained males strengh, so in a few months when an  untrained male walks in off the,street, she will be,able to more than match him

and she,still has another 40% of her strengh to access, should she wish to continue to improve, she will never catch up with a male that trains to reach his,full strength potential, but that is a very small % of the population even at bjj gyms


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> oooh-kay - not sure how this turned into 4 pages of argueing.
> 
> ...
> .



Martial Talk magic.  Sssh.

We have a lot of Type A personalities, some of whom really know what they are talking about.  Bear with us please.  ;-)

I don't know anything about BJJ or your school.  But I simply cannot believe good things can come from a school that turns new students lambs loose among those wolves who have survived, without any training.  I wouldn't be inclined to stay there if that is the case.


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## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> no you made a typo, .



Nope. Urban Dictionary: deja moo


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> why does being taller and heavier make them stronger, that's the same nonsense tea was coming out with


It's only nonsense if you don't understand it.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> oooh-kay - not sure how this turned into 4 pages of argueing.
> 
> To clarify I am not overly aggressive the issue I have is with newer stronger men. Mr almost arm breaker I have noticed in the past is far too hard and just tries to muscle his way into a submission so I have avoided him in the past, but yesterday it was only me and him left and it felt rude to just walk away. I suppose I could say I was taking a break but I decided to give him a chance. He has been doing it for 6 months and doesn't compete but I doubt anyone has told him he goes too hard. I spoke to one of my male friends and they agreed he goes too hard but they just laughed it off.
> 
> ...


I think you're on the right track.

As for the 4 pages of arguing, just humor us - none of us clearly has nearly enough to do.


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I think you're on the right track.
> 
> As for the 4 pages of arguing, just humor us - none of us clearly has nearly enough to do.



Ah the joy of being retired.


----------



## jobo (Aug 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It's only nonsense if you don't understand it.


i understand it,,,,its biology, you get the same tripe from body builder, thinking that if they bulk up three stone it makes them stronger, it doesn't, three stone of fat doesn't make you stronger, it might make you harder to push over, it can give you extra leverage on some lifts, but not actually stronger


----------



## Nev (Aug 23, 2017)

I had another situation yesterday - first a guy who I'm better at technically but hes bigger and stronger did his usual move on me which is wrapping his arms around my face until I tap because it feels like my nose is about to break (my friend later told me that is not even a legal move but I don't think this guy knows). Then another guy first arm barred me way too hard and twisted my elbow then neck cranked me really hard so my neck hurts today, I was honestly about to burst into tears and I'm not a crying type. The same guy then injured a smaller guy in an arm bar by going too hard. 

I'm going to take a break from it all. It sounds like its a gym of thugs but its not really, it is actually people not realizing they are going too hard because no one tells them.


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> I had another situation yesterday - first a guy who I'm better at technically but hes bigger and stronger did his usual move on me which is wrapping his arms around my face until I tap because it feels like my nose is about to break (my friend later told me that is not even a legal move but I don't think this guy knows). Then another guy first arm barred me way too hard and twisted my elbow then neck cranked me really hard so my neck hurts today, I was honestly about to burst into tears and I'm not a crying type. The same guy then injured a smaller guy in an arm bar by going too hard.
> 
> I'm going to take a break from it all. It sounds like its a gym of thugs but its not really, it is actually people not realizing they are going too hard because no one tells them.



Do you have other clubs around?

Face hugging even nose crushes are legal as far as I know. Just really duchey


----------



## jobo (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> I had another situation yesterday - first a guy who I'm better at technically but hes bigger and stronger did his usual move on me which is wrapping his arms around my face until I tap because it feels like my nose is about to break (my friend later told me that is not even a legal move but I don't think this guy knows). Then another guy first arm barred me way too hard and twisted my elbow then neck cranked me really hard so my neck hurts today, I was honestly about to burst into tears and I'm not a crying type. The same guy then injured a smaller guy in an arm bar by going too hard.
> 
> I'm going to take a break from it all. It sounds like its a gym of thugs but its not really, it is actually people not realizing they are going too hard because no one tells them.


the normal run of things is they do it to the wrong person who then does it back and they get the message, but you could try telling them


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## Nev (Aug 23, 2017)

jobo said:


> the normal run of things is they do it to the wrong person who then does it back and they get the message, but you could try telling them



I said why are you being such a bastard and punched him. Probably not the ideal outcome...


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> I said why are you being such a bastard and punched him. Probably not the ideal outcome...


Appropriate and inappropriate all at the same time.


----------



## Nev (Aug 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Do you have other clubs around?
> 
> Face hugging even nose crushes are legal as far as I know. Just really duchey



not legal in judo which this was

"Both blood chokes and air chokes (attacking the arteries and attacking the trachea) are legal, but neck cranks are not. In addition, one cannot touch the "mask of the face" of one's opponent, so smothering and many wrestling-style cross-faces are illegal."

I am not sure if this is a neck crank but its one I get a lot from strong guys that really hurts - where they are on top and put their closed hands behind your neck and pull up - usually your neck pops and I think its really dangerous...


----------



## drop bear (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> not legal in judo which this was



Yeah well you cant even double leg in judo. Sorry I thought you meant the Beej.


----------



## jobo (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> I said why are you being such a bastard and punched him. Probably not the ideal outcome...


thats quite the,correct thing to do


----------



## Nev (Aug 23, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Yeah well you cant even double leg in judo. Sorry I thought you meant the Beej.



I do judo but I crosstrain bjj at the same gym on occassion. I am having these problems in both classes.


----------



## SOD-WC (Aug 23, 2017)

Nev said:


> I do judo but I crosstrain bjj at the same gym on occassion. I am having these problems in both classes.


i feel that ull get seriously hurt if this keeps on going, maybe look for another smaller gym where the instructor can watch over everyone, rather then a toughen up and free for all mode?


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## Nev (Aug 23, 2017)

SOD-WC said:


> i feel that ull get seriously hurt if this keeps on going, maybe look for another smaller gym where the instructor can watch over everyone, rather then a toughen up and free for all mode?



yes but judo is not popular and there are not many gyms around...

the one I am in is known for being good. Judo stand up is fine there but we do a lot of groundwork - far more then others gyms I've heard. If I could avoid it would probably be okay.


----------



## SOD-WC (Aug 24, 2017)

Nev said:


> yes but judo is not popular and there are not many gyms around...
> 
> the one I am in is known for being good. Judo stand up is fine there but we do a lot of groundwork - far more then others gyms I've heard. If I could avoid it would probably be okay.



seems like u are stuck in a hard place, the fact that there are no good gyms around does not help. Guess you'll have to keep going and constantly scan ur partner and tap out early would be the second best option. 

but i got to admit new guys with no control, going all out to prove to the world, are a pain in the butt to deal with. i deal with it by constantly reminding them, they gain nothing by not slowing down and need to use technique.

All the best and dont give up


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2017)

Nev said:


> I said why are you being such a bastard and punched him. Probably not the ideal outcome...


Tbh you should've been banned for that...you get caught in submissions so you punch someone over it. Like we've already said just tap early you shouldn't be letting your arms get anywhere near breaking


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Tbh you should've been banned for that...you get caught in submissions so you punch someone over it. Like we've already said just tap early you shouldn't be letting your arms get anywhere near breaking



Some submissions can be put on so hard and so quickly there's no time to tap before the damage is done, I've seen an arm broken like that as well as soft tissue damage. I had my shoulder hurt like that with a figure four arm bar than was really cranked on so quickly the should was damaged before I could tap, one minute I was grappling the next  tremendous pain. It was a few years back and I was still learning the basics so couldn't read the way things were going.


----------



## Headhunter (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Some submissions can be put on so hard and so quickly there's no time to tap before the damage is done, I've seen an arm broken like that as well as soft tissue damage. I had my shoulder hurt like that with a figure four arm bar than was really cranked on so quickly the should was damaged before I could tap, one minute I was grappling the next  tremendous pain. It was a few years back and I was still learning the basics so couldn't read the way things were going.


Yeah but these are all beginners no beginners going to be able to get a submission that fast


----------



## Streetfighter2 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nev said:


> now that I think of it maybe I could be submitting far earlier too but I always feel if I can get out of it why give up


But you obviously can't get out


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but these are all beginners no beginners going to be able to get a submission that fast



Oh they can and do. What I mean by fast is not putting it on so that their opponent can have time to tap but cranking it on hard and fast. Beginners are more likely to put techniques on fast than more experienced people. Take an arm bar, where you have the arm on your hip and are pulling it down, operative word for practice is 'pulling', beginners will often yank it down so the hand is on the floor before their opponent has time to tap, then the damage is done. Often it's done because they don't understand how much it hurts when they do it that fast, they need to have an understanding of how to practice.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Nev said:


> I had another situation yesterday - first a guy who I'm better at technically but hes bigger and stronger did his usual move on me which is wrapping his arms around my face until I tap because it feels like my nose is about to break (my friend later told me that is not even a legal move but I don't think this guy knows). Then another guy first arm barred me way too hard and twisted my elbow then neck cranked me really hard so my neck hurts today, I was honestly about to burst into tears and I'm not a crying type. The same guy then injured a smaller guy in an arm bar by going too hard.
> 
> I'm going to take a break from it all. It sounds like its a gym of thugs but its not really, it is actually people not realizing they are going too hard because no one tells them.



I'm kind of having a problem understanding all this.  The first guy did his usual move?  Why do you always stay in, or present yourself in such a usual way that he always goes for his usual move against you?    Is there no counter?

Can someone explain to me what a neck crank is?  I'm sure I will recognize it with some indication of how it is applied and what it does, but neck crank isn't a term I am familiar with.

@Nev what is your instructor telling you about this?  You sure seem to have a lot of problems at that school.  Are more experienced students giving you any advice?  Are there other grappling arts being taught near enough to you to be worth while trying?


----------



## Tez3 (Aug 24, 2017)

This is the neck crank I know, we don't do it often because of the damage it can cause.
Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org

this one I don't know, just found it when looking for a demo to post.
Seatbelt neck crank

I also found this
Neck Crank MMA Injury


----------



## jobo (Aug 24, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Tbh you should've been banned for that...you get caught in submissions so you punch someone over it. Like we've already said just tap early you shouldn't be letting your arms get anywhere near breaking


the victim retaliates against a bully and you want to ban the victim?


----------



## Nev (Aug 24, 2017)

Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.

I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.

The nose crushing thing, the guy is bigger than me and gets on top of me and hugs my face - not sure how to counter this, its not like it happens repeatedly as I'm technically better than him so I can often avoid it but it does piss me off honestly. He does it because hes not good at groundwork and doesn't know what to do.

I think there are two groups I am having problem withs -brand new people (who I usually avoid anyway until I suss out if they go too hard) or people I've experienced have gone too hard and avoided in the past, but decided to give another chance thinking maybe they won't be such assholes this time, and it happens again.

I will just have to flat out avoid people I know to be mean on the ground, even if it comes across as rude. If my instructor asks why I can explain they are too rough. If he thinks im too weak or girly because of it well I'd rather that then get hurt just putting up with it and hating the classes. Today I had a much better session none of the mean people were there and I actually had fun.
But I'm definitely not doing no-gi ever again.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh they can and do. What I mean by fast is not putting it on so that their opponent can have time to tap but cranking it on hard and fast. Beginners are more likely to put techniques on fast than more experienced people. Take an arm bar, where you have the arm on your hip and are pulling it down, operative word for practice is 'pulling', beginners will often yank it down so the hand is on the floor before their opponent has time to tap, then the damage is done. *Often it's done because they don't understand how much it hurts when they do it that fast, they need to have an understanding of how to practice*.



IT should be demonstrated to begin with so they know.  In the Hapkido I learned, we usually demonstrated new techniques slowly, but up to the point they were forced to tap.  Right up front they have a idea where to slow down, or even stop if their practice opponent forgets how to tap.

Yes, up to a point speed is a necessity to accomplish a technique at all.  But you reach a point where if you don't stop, you may cause excessive pain, maiming, or death.  In your second video of your third URL, the instructor even warns people not to do the technique too fast on a practice opponent.  That should be taught during the first phases of teaching the technique imho.



> This is the neck crank I know, we don't do it often because of the damage it can cause.
> Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org
> 
> this one I don't know, just found it when looking for a demo to post.
> ...



@Tez3 Does BJJ have defenses against neck cranks of different types?  I can think of some like ear pounding or eye gouging which while effective, may not be legal in competition.

@Nav I am surprised in your post #104 that it seems you haven't discussed this with your instructor yet.  Frankly, I should think your instructor should see this kind of stuff on his own.  But maybe since your aren't complaining he just assumes it is OK with you.  Part of learning a martial art should be seeking advice from fellow students, and your teacher.


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## Steve (Aug 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> IT should be demonstrated to begin with so they know.  In the Hapkido I learned, we usually demonstrated new techniques slowly, but up to the point they were forced to tap.  Right up front they have a idea where to slow down, or even stop if their practice opponent forgets how to tap.
> 
> Yes, up to a point speed is a necessity to accomplish a technique at all.  But you reach a point where if you don't stop, you may cause excessive pain, maiming, or death.  In your second video of your third URL, the instructor even warns people not to do the technique too fast on a practice opponent.  That should be taught during the first phases of teaching the technique imho.
> 
> ...


Defense deoends on the neck crank. In most schools (I think) the cranks are discouraged at lower belts.  The problem is that they are sometimes instinctive and white belts do them becaise they seem to work but dont understand the defense or the danger.


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Defense deoends on the neck crank. In most schools (I think) the cranks are discouraged at lower belts.  The problem is that they are sometimes instinctive and white belts do them becaise they seem to work but dont understand the defense or the danger.



That makes sense.  Some of the defenses I had thought of might cause a knee-jerk reaction of cranking the neck crank too far.  Especially with newer students.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

Nev said:


> Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.
> 
> I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.
> 
> ...



For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.

I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.


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## Steve (Aug 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.
> 
> I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.


Or just open your guard and work to stand up or sweep


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

Steve said:


> Or just open your guard and work to stand up or sweep



What and miss out on eyegouging a guy with their own technique?


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## oftheherd1 (Aug 24, 2017)

drop bear said:


> For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.
> 
> I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.



I had thought to mention eye gouging as well, or ear popping, or twisting the head, or even grabbing up inside the upper lip.  But the way Nev describes the other student, and the school for that matter, I would fear a reaction that would actually injure or even kill.  Steve's solution, when feasible, sounds better.


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## drop bear (Aug 24, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I had thought to mention eye gouging as well, or ear popping, or twisting the head, or even grabbing up inside the upper lip.  But the way Nev describes the other student, and the school for that matter, I would fear a reaction that would actually injure or even kill.  Steve's solution, when feasible, sounds better.



You can eye gouge with a fist. Technically they are eyegouging themselves.


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## Nev (Aug 24, 2017)

I am not sure what you mean by eye gouge, by pushing my fist up into their eye? I think they would get mad. If I ever get angry about getting hurt and hit anyone they say they used a "legal" move so I have no right to complain.

I understand about sweeping but usually its put onto me where they have their entire weight on top of your chest with their fists behind your neck, by this stage it is pretty hard to do anything (at least I find it so). I also think if you attempt a sweep if someone has all their body weight on your upper body and is cranking your neck you could get it twisted to one side and cause yourself an injury.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Nev said:


> yes but judo is not popular and there are not many gyms around...
> 
> the one I am in is known for being good. Judo stand up is fine there but we do a lot of groundwork - far more then others gyms I've heard. If I could avoid it would probably be okay.


That sounds more like the way I trained Judo back in the 80's. We tended to split time between stand-up and ground work. I prefer that format, personally - Judo has some excellent ground tools.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> Yeah but these are all beginners no beginners going to be able to get a submission that fast


Not true. They sometimes stumble into a submission with too much weight or force, and while an experienced partner can dampen the entry to buy time, someone relatively inexperienced can easily be surprised by it. One moment there's almost no pressure, the next moment there's pain.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 25, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Oh they can and do. What I mean by fast is not putting it on so that their opponent can have time to tap but cranking it on hard and fast. Beginners are more likely to put techniques on fast than more experienced people. Take an arm bar, where you have the arm on your hip and are pulling it down, operative word for practice is 'pulling', beginners will often yank it down so the hand is on the floor before their opponent has time to tap, then the damage is done. Often it's done because they don't understand how much it hurts when they do it that fast, they need to have an understanding of how to practice.


Agreed. Of all the over-cranked shoulders and wrists I've seen in class, easily 95% of them were caused by students in their first few months of training.


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## Tez3 (Aug 25, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. Of all the over-cranked shoulders and wrists I've seen in class, easily 95% of them were caused by students in their first few months of training.



One of the best I've seen was actually the person putting on the arm bar hurting themselves. It was the arm bar where you have your legs across their upper body ( or throat lol) their arm between your legs and you 'pull' down to do the arm bar ( the one I mentioned before) and you can get your opponents hand to touch the floor, anyway we always teach taking the opponents arm across your hip to get a better result and to save what happened to one lad, he had the arm straight, the hand was in line with his chin as it were, he cranked the arm hard and fast, arching his body with the effort. However the arm he was doing it to went straight up across his genitals and oh he did shout and drop the arm quickly.


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## MA_Student (Sep 1, 2017)

Nev said:


> Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.
> 
> I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.
> 
> ...


That's rubbish if you're in a tight neck crank you're not going to be able to be any position to talk or punch and the guys doing something you can't defend...seems like he's pretty good to me. This just sounds to me like you're having ego problems to me


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2017)

MA_Student said:


> a tight neck crank



The OP didn't say it was a tight neck crank just that he wouldn't let go when she tapped, which is a jack move by most people's standards.

No, no ego problem from the OP at least.


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## JR 137 (Sep 2, 2017)

@Nev 
In all of this, I have to ask...
Where's the chief instructor?  What's his/her view on the matter?  It's the CI's job to set the tone and enforce said tone.  Just as it's the boss's job to keep a workplace from getting out of control.

Have you addressed your concerns to the CI?  If you haven't, what's stopping you from doing so?

If he/she's fine with how things are going and thinks it's all in your head or you're the problem, the school isn't the right place for you.  If he/she isn't aware there's a problem, he/she can't exactly fix it.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but complaining to us isn't going to change anything.  You've tried that.  Complaining to the people doing it isn't going to change anything.  You've tried that too.

Bring it up to the CI.  If you get a satisfactory result, stay.  If not, leave.  Or deal with it.  Don't make it more complicated than it truly needs to be.  You're obviously not happy with the current situation, so something needs to change.


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## FighterTwister (Sep 3, 2017)

I suggest if you are not happy and would like more female companions then go elsewhere where you might get better or mixed MMA teaching.

You have to feel safe and comfortable where you train,  sometimes its just not the right mix of people for you, if you like this type of sport.

Also a good instructor should pair you up evenly and challenge appropriately not get you hurt.

Although the emphasis is on you as well to accept the situation you get yourself into, take responsibility and develop.

But if you are getting hurt thats bulling don't accept it leave if you cannot resolve it with your instructor privately through a personal consultation and put in place a "Personal Development Plan".

When I was doing Aki-Jitsu we once trained with army soldiers that our sensei specially invited because he was an instructor for the army they were hard fast and rough, its was fun for a while until half way through the night I felt the aches and pains.

I had to take lead and direct the situation differently by slowing it down to help me.

Some times a gentle spoken word ( Like M8 can we slow it down a little its hurting) or a dap into the ribs helps get the message across if they are not listening.

Although you really want to avoid confrontation and make matters worse, amongst people you know and trust its different of course and works better, if they are a stranger they won't care or really know you.

You should go with a guardian or a friend, its also learning how to resolve disputes and conflict, these are skills and discussion points that should be happening regularly at least once a month on club feedback or safety issues etc.

Stuff happens you need to talk to them afterwards and get them to respect you and where you are at a policy of no ego is important.

If that fails leave and let the instructor know there is a problem, they are responsible in the end because a law suit is possible for bodily-harm etc.

Always read the registration contract before you sign and discuss privately.

You may want to wear some head gear and other protection when training it your prerogative to do so.

Well thats all I can think of at the moment that would help anyone in your situation.

Good luck and stay safe.


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