# Chungul Sang Soo Makee Questions



## Lynne (Sep 26, 2007)

Chungul Sang Soo Makee = double-fist block

I learned this move in Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung.  Why is the word Chungul part of the name of the move?  I note that we go into a lower front stance when doing the double-fist block.  Is Chungul to emphasize dropping lower than usual?  Or does it merely mean a double fist block in front of the body?

Also, my Chil-Sung form hasn't been critiqued yet (and it may not be before the competition).  Do we arc/circle the arm at all going into the double-fist block?  I would think maybe a bit of circling like we do with the inside/outside block.

I just found out that I need to arc my arm for Chun Dan Soo Do Makee.

Lots of subtleties.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 26, 2007)

Lynne,

The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance.  Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them?  Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example?  That's just a backstance movement. 

Can you please describe what you mean by circling and arcing?  Not quite following you there.

If you intend to compete with a form, I strongly suggest that you have someone take a look at it before you go in front of judges.  There is absolutely NO REASON for no one to critique it.  In fact, if you are expected to compete with it (especially since it seems like you were coerced into it), someone definately needs to at least check it out.  And there is no reason for your instructor not to!!!  Even if it is simply a senior belt.  You may have to go seek them out, but you need to have someone take a look with an objective eye.  

I'm not sure if it is the same way at your school, but I was always taught that it is the instructor's job to TEACH, it is the student's job to follow up.


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## jks9199 (Sep 26, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne,
> 
> The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance.  Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them?  Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example?  That's just a backstance movement.
> 
> ...


I can't re-emphasize enough that there is no excuse for them not to have assessed and critiqued your form.

My students DO NOT compete with a form unless I've signed off on it.  After all, my reputation is riding on them doing it well -- or poorly.

I realize you're happy with your school -- but I've got to wonder where the instructors and especially the head instructor is.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 26, 2007)

What MBuzzy said; chungul just refers to the stance. Also, if it's a low two-fisted block, it's ha dan ssang soo mahkee. High two-hand block is sang dan ssang soo mahkee. AFAIK, without the mention of hit level, it's the "inside-outside block" version. 

I also agree with upnorthkyosa. You really should be being critiqued by your instructors, and often. I don't understand an instructor who wouldn't stop you in the middle of the form whenever and wherever he/she saw you making a slight error in technique.


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## MBuzzy (Sep 26, 2007)

And Lynne, I've said this before....but you really need to remember that you are PAYING for a service.  Obviously there is so much more to it than that....but when you get right down to it, its a business and you are paying for a service.  If you don't feel that you are getting what you need, deserve or are PAYING FOR....you have a right to go talk to your instructor about it.  VERY RESPECTFULLY of course....


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2007)

I go with what everyone has said! In the organisation I did my TSD gradings with the Hyung you are doing is a 2nd Dan one so seems an odd choice they made for you.


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## agemechanic03 (Sep 27, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I go with what everyone has said! In the organisation I did my TSD gradings with the Hyung you are doing is a 2nd Dan one so seems an odd choice they made for you.


 

Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.

Chris


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.
> 
> Chris


 
When I did Wado Ryu we were taught katas ahead of the ones we needed for grading so we had plenty of practice time in with them before we needed them but we were expected and it made sense, to compete with katas that were either our grade or lower. We might have got away with the next belt ups kata but no higher and we would have had to have practised for a long time at at. I've never competed with a kata that I've only just learnt or am still learning, far too much pressure there.
Perhaps we should have a separate thread where we can post up which hyungs we do in what order? I'll start it off if anyone thinks it could be useful?


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 27, 2007)

Tez, I think that would be interesting.

Regarding the critique of your technique Lynne, as an eigth gup you should be getting corrected a lot.  I'm sure our students get sick of me correcting them...


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2007)

I have to get ready for training now but will do a new thread when I get back tonight.There's another syllabus for our club now replacing the one I do but it still makes Chil Sung Ee Ro a black belt hyung only 1st Dan now.

Looking at my book Chil Sung Ee Ro seems to be a nice straight forward Hyung, I've looked at the double block as as it reads to me you turn from the reverse punch 90 deg into a normal front stance and straight into the double block, no circling or arcing. As you turn you move your arms into the block as you would normally. My book calls it Sang Soo Joong Dan Mahk Kee. As JT says it the inside-outside block.

I'm going to go through it tonight, as I said it does seem a straight forward one but I do think you must have done all the moves thoroughly in class before it becomes easy to learn. It's one of the joys of becoming more experienced that you find hyungs easier to understand and learn. Putting what you've learned in the line work into them and finding you know the movements is a special feeling!


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne,
> 
> The chungul simply specifies that you're doing the block in front stance. Ever notice that some movements have the words "Hu Gul" in front of them? Hu Gul Yup Mahk Kee for example? That's just a backstance movement.
> 
> ...


Hi,

By arcing, I mean as our school does in an inside/outside block.  As you move the blocking arm from below the preparing arm, you move it in a fashion like a windshield wiper rather than a straight line.

Some of the other orange belts in Black Belt Club say they are not doing the Chil-Sung forms but Pyong Ahn Cho Dan or Pyong Ahn E Dan because they are not comfortable with the Chil-Sung forms.  The Instructor (not school owner) said to all of us in black belt club, "Who is doing forms in the competition?  Master R wants to see Chil-Sung forms."  And he began teaching us Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung.  So, I assumed that meant all belts in BBC were to do Chil-Sung.  Obviously, they want us to.  But maybe it's not an absolute requirement as others have decided they are not going to do a Chil-Sung form.

How would you all have taken that?  I assume that if the Master of the school wants you to do something, you do it.


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Tez, I think that would be interesting.
> 
> Regarding the critique of your technique Lynne, as an eigth gup you should be getting corrected a lot. I'm sure our students get sick of me correcting them...


I got lots of critiquing at white belt.

I wouldn't get sick of the critiquing.  I want to do things right.  I'd hate to hear a year down the road, "Your back stance is wrong because...."


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I have to get ready for training now but will do a new thread when I get back tonight.There's another syllabus for our club now replacing the one I do but it still makes Chil Sung Ee Ro a black belt hyung only 1st Dan now.
> 
> Looking at my book Chil Sung Ee Ro seems to be a nice straight forward Hyung, I've looked at the double block as as it reads to me you turn from the reverse punch 90 deg into a normal front stance and straight into the double block, no circling or arcing. As you turn you move your arms into the block as you would normally. My book calls it Sang Soo Joong Dan Mahk Kee. As JT says it the inside-outside block.
> 
> I'm going to go through it tonight, as I said it does seem a straight forward one but I do think you must have done all the moves thoroughly in class before it becomes easy to learn. It's one of the joys of becoming more experienced that you find hyungs easier to understand and learn. Putting what you've learned in the line work into them and finding you know the movements is a special feeling!


Thanks, Tez.  One of the few blocks that doesn't require some sort of circling or arcing movement!


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

agemechanic03 said:


> Tez, For a lot of the orgs, learning the Chil Sungs at lower levels is part of the curriculi to achieve Cho Dan. For us here in Korea, it's the same as yours, but he teaches us all the forms up to like Sam Dan. Just depends on which org you are affiliated with.
> 
> Chris


In our school, they teach the Chil-Sung forms to those in the Black Belt Club as we are expected to work harder - it's really a perk, I think.   Otherwise, they start teaching Chil-Sungs at red belt but I'm not sure which gup level of red belt or how many Chil-Sungs they teach.


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

JT_the_Ninja said:


> What MBuzzy said; chungul just refers to the stance. Also, if it's a low two-fisted block, it's ha dan ssang soo mahkee. High two-hand block is sang dan ssang soo mahkee. AFAIK, without the mention of hit level, it's the "inside-outside block" version.
> 
> I also agree with upnorthkyosa. You really should be being critiqued by your instructors, and often. I don't understand an instructor who wouldn't stop you in the middle of the form whenever and wherever he/she saw you making a slight error in technique.


I started learning the form in class during BBC week.  And I've done it once more in class as practice for the competition.  I don't know if we'll practice again before the competition.  I may grab someone or go to a special help class.

Winning isn't important but doing the form correctly is.  I have to admit if I do well with it, I'll impress myself.  I think at my level, it takes a good 6 - 8 weeks of learning my gup forms to feel comfortable, like I have a bit of muscle memory.  And the Chil-Sung, with quite a few new moves is like learning a foreign language.


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I can't re-emphasize enough that there is no excuse for them not to have assessed and critiqued your form.
> 
> My students DO NOT compete with a form unless I've signed off on it. After all, my reputation is riding on them doing it well -- or poorly.
> 
> I realize you're happy with your school -- but I've got to wonder where the instructors and especially the head instructor is.


 
You make a good point about a student's performance reflecting on the quality of instruction.  I'm dedicated but that doesn't mean finesse in anything, period. I think we're capable of doing the higher forms and doing them fairly well with lots of practice.  But if one isn't critiqued, there is no way to know if the form is being executed properly.  So many subtle things, such as stepping at the correct angle, chopping at the right angle and so on.  And there could be huge blunders that we are unaware of since some of the blocks are new to us (not to mention the low stances and energy presses).

I'm beginning to think they may not know I'm doing the Chil-Sung considering that other gups have opted out of doing the Chil-Sung forms.  I do remember an instructor asking me what form I was going to do and I replied, "Chil-Sung E Ro-Hyung" and they were excited for me.  To me, it didn't sound like a choice but to do Chil-Sung for Black Belt Club members..  "Master R wants to see BBC doing Chil-Sung forms."  He also might not know that people have opted out of doing Chil-Sungs. I will grab someone for a critique.

I explained a bit about our school philosophy in my spotlight thread. We receive a requirements sheet for each gup level and there is no excuse for not learning the material.  We are encouraged to grab a higher belt or attend special help classes.  The idea is to promote a teamwork/family atmosphere.


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 27, 2007)

These higher belts, am I correct in assuming these are not trained instructors?  

That is the way to learn bad technique, get injuries and end up in all sorts of horrible messes.  In addition, they will not be insured to teach you.

Can you choose your forms?  



> We receive a requirements sheet for each gup level and there is no excuse for not learning the material.



Even if you are not taught it by your instructors?


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## MBuzzy (Sep 27, 2007)

Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school.  Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.

Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction.  and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that.  Especially standardized movements like those.

And think about it from an objective standpoint....how does it sound when the instructor who you are paying says "Well, it is your responsibility to go find another student to learn."  Actually, no, it is THEIR responsibility to TEACH you.  It is wonderful to have a family atmosphere, but that sounds like an excuse for not teaching.

Again, please know that we are all just concerned about your training and want you to get the best possible!!  You deserve it as do all of the other students.


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 27, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> *Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school.  Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.*
> 
> Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction.  and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that.  Especially standardized movements like those.
> 
> ...



My thoughts exactly.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 27, 2007)

MBuzzy said:


> Lynne, please don't feel that anyone is attacking, criticizing, or insulting you or your school.  Everyone is just concerned about the instruction.
> 
> Just giving you a requirements sheet DOES NOT substitute for providing REAL instruction.  and every Martial Arts instructor in the world knows that one class is not enough to learn material like that.  Especially standardized movements like those.
> 
> ...



I third that. Students at my school are encouraged to ask the senior belts for help, but that still doesn't replace the instructor. If you're paying someone for a service that they are not providing, you really need to start asking questions.


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

I'm not taking any offense gentleman and ladies.  I understand your concern (I know what you are wondering and why) and I realize my school's philosophy is different from some others.

We definitely have structure.  No, I cannot choose my own forms, Field.  We have a specified curriciculum for each week and certain forms are taught at certain gup levels.  As far as I know, we follow the tradition of Soo Bahk Do.

The Chil-Sung forms are only taught at lower gup levels if one is in Black Belt Club.  BBC is not a requirement to get a black belt by the way.  It doesn't cost more either.  It is a contract though extending one's contract to a total of four years.

Certification?  Ohhh.  I don't know.  Our instructors are anywhere from Cho Dan to some that will be promoted to 4th Dan (Master) soon.  Certification?  Gee, I don't know.

I've been at 8th gup for almost 4 weeks and realize we have learned/started to learn a lot of material:

-Pyong Ahn Cho Dan
-double side kick
-hook kick
-hadon soo do makee
-chun dan soo do makee
-hook kick cotton bahl roundhouse kick (cotton bahl means double kick - you don't put the foot down)
-ahp chagi cotton bahl roundhouse kick
-side block with side punch combination
-sparring techniques
-other hand and other kick combinations I can't recall
-five one-step sparring combinations
-two same side wrist grip techniques (well, we almost did these - were supposed to)

I realize that may be a lot for four weeks.  Do you think so?  I think the only other kick I have to learn for 7th gup is the inside/outside kick.  There are a few tricky combinations but I already know how to do them - I think I just have to add aiming with the opposite arm that I punch with.  I already add aiming to my forms so it shouldn't be hard

If I pass both spotlights, I won't actually test until the end of November which should be plenty of time to get the basic techniques down.

After four weeks, I wouldn't expect a student to be exactly a whiz at all of this material, would you?   I "sort of" learned the hook kick the other night.  The instructor asked us to do it and I raised my hand saying I hadn't learned it yet.  OK, he didn't take the time to explain the mechanics of the kick.  He whipped his leg around to demonstrate it.  Now, at white belt level, they would have said, "This is a four-part kick.  First we raise our knee.....one."  In fact, I thought the hook kick was used to hook someone with the heel instead of slapping them with the bottom of the foot.  Once my 6th gup partner told me that the kick is used to slap someone with the bottom of the foot, I was able to hook correctly instead of doing a a hooking motion with the heel!  For those who instruct, don't you think I made a reasonable assumption?    I wasn't looking for a slap, I was looking for a hook and that's what I thought I saw.

It's this kind of stuff that drives me crazy lately. But then I think, "They are just introducing the material to me and they will refine it as we go."  Then, I think, "I have a spotlight tonight.  What if my mechanics are crappy?  What will Master R think?"

I suppose Master R will expect a much better performance come the second spotlight! and especially at test time.

I have doboks to iron as want to look nice for the spotlight.  I will let everyone know how it goes. I may be nervous for nothing.  If I get tested on all the above material, well I better be nervous!


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2007)

Lynne, I have to add my voice to the rest, it's really worrying. It's unfair on you as you are paying and you have so much enthuisasm and keenness to learn you deserve to be taught by instructors who can do their job.

Perhaps it would help if some of us posted up a typical class for you to get an idea of why we are concerned? It's been a while since I trained in a class but the classes I have been in whatever the style, (I've been in Wado Ryu, TKD and TSD) have always been much the same. 

After a warm up the class usually goes into lines for basics, with the instructor demonstrating first then taking the class through the techniques one by one with the instructor correcting each student. The basics are the blocks, high, low, in and out. Punches are front punch, reverse punch,backfist. Kicks would be front kick, roundhouse and side kick. Stances, front and back stance at the very least. Different styles have different names for these of course and do them slightly differently but I think that's the very basic things you should know by your first grading. Good basics are the grounding on which everything is based I think. The first kata/hyung they learn contains those basics, Pinan Nidan in Wado, Kee Cho Hyung Il Bo in TSD and I believe 13 Steps in TKD.

Usually next is that we'd split into two groups, (I've never been in a class that wasn't fine for two black belt instructors to manage comfortably) to do kata. From the first lesson we'd be taught the first kata even though it wasn't necessary for the first grading, our instructors in Wado and TKD both reckoned we should always know one kata ahead of what we needed for grading.We'd also have learned the moves used in the kata before learning it. Basics and kata go hand in hand, complimenting each other.

The next thing would be either sparring or self defence for everyone. All the instructors I've had put new people into spar, always with a senior student, it's felt important to get them used to being padded up and to feel confident right from the start that they weren't there to be beaten up. They need to walk away from the class thinking that was good I'm not being swamped and I can learn this.

The instructors I've had were always the ones teaching and correcting you, you could ask senior belts for help but never really needed to as the instructors were always there to help. We did a lot of linework to get the techniques right, loads of repetition! The katas/hyungs were taken to pieces, we did them in reverse and with our eyes closed. After line work we'd quite often do pad work to get the power into the strikes. In sparring the instructors would spar with us all what ever stage we were at.

All the classes I've been in went on for two hours, I've never trained for less. This gives you a lot of time on each part of the lesson. I'm a slow learner who needs to repeat things until they are stuck in my head so this suited me down to the ground. People wouldn't be put into a grading until the instructor was confident they knew what they needed to, after all it reflects on them too.

This is my experience of classes, I still teach to that pattern as I think it works. If others could post up what they do we should be able to get a comparision hopefully.


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## Tez3 (Sep 27, 2007)

For 7th Gup grading this is our requiremenets

ALL PREVIOUS GRADING REQUIREMENTS FOR TSD 

HAMMER FIST 

LOW KNIFE HAND BLOCK 

UPPERCUT 

DOUBLE MIDDLE FIST BLOCK 

SIDE KICK 

MIDDLE KNIFE HAND BLOCK 

SPEAR HAND STRIKE 

REVERSE INSIDE TO OUT BLOCK 

FRONT SNAP KICK 

SAM SOO SIK [5] TECHNIQUES 

PYUNG AHN CHO DAN & PYUNG AHN YI DAN


the previous requirements are -

BASIC WARM UPS 

SALUTE TO THE SUN 

FITNESS LEVEL 

HORSE STANCE 

MIDDLE PUNCHES 

FRONT STANCE & BACK STANCE 

FRONT PUNCH HIGH 

LOW BLOCK & HIGH BLOCK 

INSIDE TO OUT BLOCK 

SIDE PUNCH 

EYE FOCUS & KI HAP 

SAM SOO SIK [1] TECHNIQUE 

GI-CHO-HYUNGS-IL, YI & SAM


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## MBuzzy (Sep 27, 2007)

No problem, Tez, great idea!  Might make a good thread too - if someone has the power to split these off!  

A typical class consists of:

First, stretching/warm up.  ALWAYS, usually about 10 minutes or so.  
Following that, most classes begin with basics.  Line up and march the floor with either basic techniques or combination techniques directly from the testing curriculum.  
Following that, we work on the next thing in the rotation.  Basically we rotate through forms, Ho Sin Sul, and Ill Soo Sik.  We will take as many classes as necessary to get through ALL forms for all ranks.  Then as many classes as necessary to work through ALL of the Ill Soo Sik, then the same for Ho Sin Sul (although we usually stick to the colored belt curriculum).  Last week's classes were stick defense, this week's are knife defense.

Either way, no matter what we are doing, the instructor, i.e. the Dojang owner, and head instructor demonstrates the technique and each one of us does it while we are corrected and watched by the instructor.  It is an open forum during which questions are welcomed and shared with the entire class.  

For forms, we work every form at least 2 or 3 times and each student gets instruction and correction.  Once we get away from the forms that lower belts know, they will either observe or work with the senior most belt on their own forms to the side.  

In addition, following every class, the instructor and senior belts stick around to answer any questions and work individually with anyone who had any problems during class.  

No one is tested until they know all material front and back, inside and out.  Most of the test results are known before the test....because if they weren't ready, they wouldn't be testing.  As we get closer to tests, we will work on just test material for those who are testing...basically the week or two before a test, every class is devoted to those who are testing.  

Sparring is every Friday night.


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## jks9199 (Sep 27, 2007)

Just to add to the "class format discussion", I teach pretty much how I was taught.  That means lots of repitition...

Generally, we start with about 15 to 20 minutes of warm up calisthenics and stretching.  Several of the exercises we use are designed/intended also as practice for important skills... though we don't always tell students that.

After warmups, we frequently run through the basic drills (stances, blocking, punching, etc.).  Some classes, we'll work on elements solely from those drills.  Other classes, we'll introduce something new.  Either way, I often demonstrate what I want, then drill the class in it, correcting them as we go.  Sometimes, I'll correct an individual, other times the whole class, depending on the issue.  (One person using the wrong stance, say...  Individual problem.  Lots of people using the wrong stance... class problem.)  I often have them work in pairs or do some other form of partner exercises, as well.  

If we're working forms...  If I'm teaching a form, I demonstrate, walk them through, watch them, and repeat as needed.  I generally break forms into sets; in some cases, a good night's progress is one set.  In other cases, I may teach most of a form in one night.  Depends on the student...  Generally, to reach "competition level" with a form takes several months of work.  In and out of class.

I also often teach things at different levels to different students.  I'll "reteach" or refine something as a student's knowledge and skill advances.

And that, Lynne, is the problem I'm seeing from your posts.  You aren't getting that correction on any regular and consistent basis.  I don't know why.  Maybe you are, and it's just not coming through.  But there's a lot more to teaching than simply demonstrating and drilling.


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## cdunn (Sep 27, 2007)

For us, a typical class starts with a 'mere' 5 minutes of class stretching. You are expected to be there 15-20 minutes early to start loosening up - White belts are taught how to stretch and the individual techniques in the Order of Basics, as well as the three basic kicks in private lessons before they join class for the first time.

After stretching, it's a few minutes of pahl put kee (Straddle punches), before breaking out the order of basics and kicking exercises. Every so often, he'll sit the lowest rank set down and ramp up the difficulty. If he catches you unable to do a technique, he'll correct you right there in the line. After about 10-20 minutes of basics, it's either time for the focused exercise of the day  - Tonight was kick defenses - followed by forms, or straight up time for forms, if basics were long. 

Forms are generally done by rank-set - White / Yellow, Orange, Green, Red, Midnight, usually the two testing hyung, once his count, once follow-the-senior's-unsung-count, aka, 'our count'. Corrections get handed out at the end of each run through the form, mid-form if we screw it up enough. 

After forms, it's one-steps, which are generally paired senior-junior, with the senior teaching the junior one on one while the instructor wanders around and teaches everyone as needed.  

Couple rounds of no or light contact sparring ends the night. It makes me happy.



I think... or at least hope... that there is some kind of miscommunication here. I obviously do not study at the same dojang as Lynne, but I do get to compete against a couple guys from that dojang a couple times a year in the tournaments. They are almost always top notch. Something is going right in that school somewhere.


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## JT_the_Ninja (Sep 27, 2007)

I agree with MBuzzy, someone should split these class format descriptions off into another thread. I'm only going to post this here so that they're all together.

So here's your standard class at my dojang:

Class starts with everybody lining up according to rank. There are usually three in a row, but if there are only four people at class, it's usually rows of two. If there are more than maybe 15 in class, it's usually rows of 4. After everybody is lined up, we stand at attention (Cha ryut!), salute the flags (Kuk gi bay ray!), return to attention (Ba ro!), and either sit down (Anju!) or stay standing for meditation (Muk nyum!). 

After meditation, we stand again (Ba ro!) and bow to the instructor (Face this way, bow Kyung Ret! Tang Soo!) and go into choon bee jaseh. Then, if I may take the voice of the instructor, it goes:

"Loosen out your wrists, elbows, and shoulders."
"Hands on your belt, loosen out your neck."
"Feet shoulder width apart, side bend exercises, right side first (two times each side" --  about 30 counts
"Feet wider apart, front to back exercises" -- again, about 30-40 counts
"Bend over at the waist, 25 waist twists each side, your own count. Begin"
"Jump up, hands on your knees, loosen out your knees and ankles."
"Ba ro! Fifty jumping-jacks. Begin!"
"Choon bee! Right leg back, chungul jaseh!"
"Ahp podol ri gi! Hana, tul, set, net..." (assume the count goes out to ten or twenty)
"Bal kyo deh! Hana, tul, set, net..."
"Bal kyo deh! Ahneso pakero chagi! Hana, tul, set, net..."
"Bal kyo deh! Hana, tul, set, net..."
"Bal kyo deh! Left hand out, pakeso ahnero chagi! Don't drop your hand! Hana, tul, set, net..."
"Bal kyo deh! Hana, tul, set, net..."
"Ba ro! And shio! (Ko map sum ni da, Tang Soo!) Turn around, fix your doboks."
(One, two, three) "Turn around fast!"

Here we can either go over to the kicking bar for more stretching/side kick practice, or we can go on to this:

"Choon bee! Left hand, left foot Pal po ki! (about 10 of those) Two punches! (Tang Soo! Tang Soo! Tang Soo!...and so on for about 10 more) Three punches, low, middle, high! (Tang Soo Do! Tang Soo Do! Tang Soo Do! and so on for about 10 more) And Ba ro!"

Here's where we do basics, up and down the room. Usually, green belts and down do ha dan mahk kee, choong dan kong kyuk, sang dan mahk kee, ahneso pakero mahk kee, weng jin kong kyuk, and maybe ha dan / choong dan soo do mahk kee and hugul yup mahk kee, while red belts and up do the red belt basic combinations: 
(1) Ha dan mahk ko, tora so choong dan kong kyuk, sang dan mahk kee
(2) Choong dan kong kyuk, tora so choong dan kong kyuk, ahneso pakero mahk kee
(3) Weng jin kong kyuk, hugul yup mahk ko, chungul ha dan ssang soo mahk kee
(4) Chungul choong dan ssang soo mahk ko, tora so choong dan kong kyuk, choong dan soo do mahk kee
(5) Ha dan soo do mahk ko, tora so choong dan kwon soo kong kyuk, pakeso ahnero sang dan soo do kong kyuk
(6) Pakeso ahnero mahk ko, tora so pakeso ahnero mahk ko, hugul choong dan ssang soo mahk kee
(7) Yuk soo (defense and punch), choong dan soo do mahk ko, sang dan mahk kee.

Then we do foot basics. Again, green belts and down usually only do basic kicks, while the red belts and up do the combinations: 

(1) Yup chago, sang dan mahk ko, tora so choong dan kong kyuk, ha dan soo do mahk kee
(2) Ahp chago, dul ryo chago, dwi chagi
(3) Dul ryo yup chago, dwi chago, dul ryo chagi
(4) Dul ryo chago, e dan ahp chago, dwi chagi
(5) Ahp chago, e dan yup chago, dwe chagi

Then it's "Ba ro, Shio (Ko map sum ni da, Tang Soo!), turn around and fix your do boks."

Next we usually do forms. Depending on the class makeup and the instructor's mood, we may do just our highest forms, several times over, a few lower forms and then our highest forms, or even all the forms from gicho hyung sam bu through our highest forms. Part of the pre-tests and test for cho dan is doing all the pyung ahn hyung in sequence, with no choon bee in between forms. If it's close to testing time and there are a lot of pretesters or testers for cho dan, it's likely we'll do that. Lately, at the times I take class at least half of the students are cho dan or above (there are maybe 5 or so sam dans, as many ee dans, and a crowd of cho dans at my dojang), so quite often it's jinte, jinte, and more jinte for me. 

Depending on the class, we may also each line up facing a partner for il soo sik or ho sin sul. Or we may be doing some sparring drills or other partner drills. Sometimes, we'll get out the big body-sized pads and do some kicking. Or we may be set against the training bags (two water-filled stand-up ones and one 100-lb hanging one) for more drills. All depends on what the instructor wants to do.

The last five or ten minutes of class are when we're all tired, so that's when we line up again and work on our _in neh_. Thirty or more situps/crunches of various types, then twenty knuckle pushups, maybe some six-inch drills (lying on back, legs held up six inches off the ground), and quite possibly several other endurance drills. Then we stand up and do some more, either in the form of six-counts, 30 seconds continuous pal po ki punching, one-leg hop-up kicks, or (especially for ee dans and up) two-leg hop-up kicks. Maybe some squats and jumps too, depending on the instructor's mood. Finally, when the instructor's done torturing us, it's "Ba ro! Cha ryut! Kuk gi bay ray! Ba ro! Muk nyum! (either seated or standing) Ba ro! Face this way, bow kyung ret! Face sam dans, sam dan dol kyung ret! (Ko map sum ni da, Tang Soo!) Face ee dans, ee dan dol kyung ret! (Ko map sum ni da, Tang Soo!)" Face cho dans, cho dan dol kyung ret! (Ko map sum ni da, Tang Soo!) Have a good _______ night, Tang Soo!" And then I leave thoroughly exhausted.

Of course it's slightly different on the not-all-that-uncommon occasion that I'm the only one in class. Then my SBN can just focus on me the whole time. Those are fun classes, let me tell you.

Also note that all of this is variable. Sometimes all of us just do basic techniques instead of combinations. Sometimes we only do low forms. Quite often, the class is split into groups, with various seniors taking charge of the lower belts while the SBN leads the rest of the class (aka "Mr. Jonathan, come here fast! Go over forms with them until they drop!"). It all depends on the makeup of the class and on what the instructor wants to focus that particular class.

Tang Soo!


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## Makalakumu (Sep 27, 2007)

This move is indicating a double strike or block strike combination.  A lot of it depends on the form that it is in.  In chil sung ee lo, the move is followed up with a side punch in horse stance.  This move can lock an arm up or it can be turned into sukui nage.


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## Makalakumu (Sep 27, 2007)

Wow, I need to read the rest of the thread.  Good side topic.  My class format is generally as follows...

I have an approach that I use when I deliver a lesson, any lesson, be it in my science classroom or in my dojang.  It's called the *Five E's* and this approach pretty consistently leads to effective lessons...which IMHO is the definition of a great class.

Now, before I go on, I'd like to take a little time to define an effective lesson.  IMO, an effective lesson takes place when the following criteria are met.  The teacher has clear, overarching, and enduring objectives that are known by the students.  The curriculum is comprehensive and philosophically sound so that it leads a student to the teacher's enduring objectives.  Everything in the lesson is connected to the teacher's overarching goals so that any evaluation will determine progression towards those goals.

With that being said, the five steps of the *Five E's* are specifically designed to fit into this model.  The steps are as follows...

1.  *Engage* - a student must somehow be engaged by the teacher's material or it isn't going to grab their attention and they won't perform at their best.  Presenting students with problems or challenges is a good way to engage them.

2.  *Explore* - this is the stage where the instructor facilitates the student's exploration of the material that engaged them.  Students use this time to examine their own background knowledge.

3.  *Explain* - during this stage, the instructor explains the nuances whatever is being learned and may demonstrate ways that slight alter or greatly alter the student's background knowledge.

4.  *Elaborate* - this is an important step where students are given time to take what was presented before and use it in a variety of situations.  This is done in order to test the concept in various ways and explore its depth.  It also gives the students' the chance to be creative with application.

5.  *Evaluate* - the last state is where the instructor uses whatever methods or instruments needed in order to measure how much the student has learned.  Methods of evaluation can be simple or complex, but they should always be measuring against the metric of the instructors overarching and enduring goals.  

Lastly, this approach is not designed with a time limit in mind.  It can take as little as five minutes or it could last the entire class period depending how the instructor designs it.  Often, each individual student will experience this at least once during the time they are in class.  The bottom line is that I have found that this approach enhances both the intellectual and kinesthetic understanding of the material presented.


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## Lynne (Sep 27, 2007)

cdunn said:


> For us, a typical class starts with a 'mere' 5 minutes of class stretching. You are expected to be there 15-20 minutes early to start loosening up - White belts are taught how to stretch and the individual techniques in the Order of Basics, as well as the three basic kicks in private lessons before they join class for the first time.
> 
> After stretching, it's a few minutes of pahl put kee (Straddle punches), before breaking out the order of basics and kicking exercises. Every so often, he'll sit the lowest rank set down and ramp up the difficulty. If he catches you unable to do a technique, he'll correct you right there in the line. After about 10-20 minutes of basics, it's either time for the focused exercise of the day - Tonight was kick defenses - followed by forms, or straight up time for forms, if basics were long.
> 
> ...


It's true that our school does very well in tournaments.  In fact, we have world champions in sparring.

Thanks everyone for responding.  It's about 1:00 am and I'm going to go through all the recent posts later today.  I'm curious about your training approach and appreciate the input.


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Just to add to the "class format discussion", I teach pretty much how I was taught.  That means lots of repitition...
> 
> Generally, we start with about 15 to 20 minutes of warm up calisthenics and stretching.  Several of the exercises we use are designed/intended also as practice for important skills... though we don't always tell students that.
> 
> ...



Thats the way we do it.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

upnorthkyosa said:


> This move is indicating a double strike or block strike combination. A lot of it depends on the form that it is in. In chil sung ee lo, the move is followed up with a side punch in horse stance. This move can lock an arm up or it can be turned into sukui nage.


Thank you for the information.  The sukui nage is a drop I'll be doing soon in one-step sparring.  That's a nasty drop.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

You all inquired about how our classes are structured.  Truly, it depends on whether I attend evening or morning classes.  Generally, I attend evening classes and Saturday morning classes.

Most classes are one hour long; two of the evening classes are 45 minutes as is the Saturday class.  Saturday classes are more about conditioning and we may do 20 - 30 minutes of running, wallkicks, pushups, crunches, leg raises, and squat thrusts.  Then, we move on to class material for 15-25 minutes.  It can be anything from forms to combinations.  There have been classes where we've done pushups and conditioning work for the entire 45 minutes - like hundreds of pushups, hundreds of crunches.  I don't have a problem with that by the way.  I need the conditioning.  I see the value in conditioning. Every martial artist needs continuous conditioning.

Morning classes are taught by Master R and he is able to keep an eye on and correct a room full of 20+ people whether we are doing forms, combinations, shoulder rolls, kicks, or punches and so on.  We always begin with a warmup of about 10-20 minutes.   The curriculum changes from week-to-week.  He will constantly move from person-to-person correcting them and showing them the mechanics of a move.  When he teaches a combination or a move, he explains to the entire class why we are doing the move (it's application) and he demonstrates the mechanics of the move, all the while emphasizing core power and so on to ensure that we do the move correctly and with focus and power.  I will say I believe he can do more than what four instructors can do, lol.  Many years of experience and teaching.  I'm certain he has eyes in the back of his head.

During evening classes, we generally have about 4 instructors on the floor.  The curriculum varies from week-to-week as well.  We may do punching drills with one instructor, then rotate to another instructor for forms, then to another instructor for combinations.  One week of the month we do sparring at the end of class for 15 minutes.  We have also have sparring classes separate from regular class.  Sparring classes are 45 minutes long and consist of one or two drills and sparring with partners. Instructors circle around giving pointers and instruction.  In addition, higher belts teach the lower belts how to spar when sparring with them.

Here is an example of what we might do in class:

-Warmup for about 10 minutes.
-Entire class, including black belts, clock kick for 10 minutes, both legs.
-Hold horse stance for 4-6 minutes.
-Black belts go to a corner and work with their instructor rest of the evening for forms, etc.

There will usually be one instructor at each station for the following:

-Red and green belts go to their corner and work on forms.
-Orange and a few green belts work on forms - could be 8 people in this group, doing four different forms depending upon gup level.
-Yellow and white belts work on their forms. 

After 10 - 15 minutes, rotate and move to next station with one instructor.

-Work on combinations.

The following week, we might do wallkicks for 10 -15 minutes, then forms, then punching drills or kicking drills, then sparring.

No, wrist grips (self-defense) and one-step sparring are not worked on in every class.  I thought you all might be wondering about that.

Our classes are one hour long, and for certain, we pack a lot into one hour. It's a very busy one hour but we cannot cover all aspects of the art in one hour. 

Students help one another.  Higher belts are always helping me in class, correcting me and giving me pointers.  I also enjoy helping the lower belts when I am able to. This is what our Sa Ba Nim wants.

This may be a misnomer, but I would call our instruction incremental learning such as used in Saxon Math.  You review older concepts and introduce a new concept.  The next day, you review the older concepts, including the previous new concept and add one.  Each time you practice the concepts they became easier.  You refine and build.

In four weeks, I have learned almost everything I need for my 7th gup test except for the back kick.  We have been introduced to a lot of material in four weeks!  Now, it's time to refine that material.

Now, that I realize what the spotlights are for, I'm more comfortable and less fearful about failing/not learning my material.  I know that Master R will personally be reviewing my progress.  Sure, I could fail a spotlight but that would probably only happen if I haven't been in class.  Believe me, if I'm asked to do something that I have no clue about, I will be the first to raise my hand and say, "Sir, I haven't learned X yet."   Also, I imagine it's a two-way street.  How I do in the spotlight is, to a large degree, a reflection on the instructors.

Sure, I would love it if our classes were 1-1/2 - 2 hours long.  They aren't and this is one of the reasons I go three times a week.  I don't think I could learn the material going just once or even 2X a week.  Some people probably can.

The Dan's have longer classes of course, 3-1/2 hours certain mornings of the week.  They practice weapons and do Olympic training (I think- don't quote me on that).  Then, they go to regular morning class.  I know there are Il Gup classes as well.

We may do things differently, but our school does excel in sparring, weapons, and forms competitions in the states and abroad.  We are known to be worthwhile competitors (I don't want to go on too much lest I sound like Bill Duff and Jason Chambers from Human Weapon - oh, gee!).

I'd like to reiterate that I am very happy at my school and plan on training there for a long time.  I have the utmost respect for my Sa Ba Nim and the instructors.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

As far as the Chil-Sung forms, I do not believe we would be learning them if it weren't possible for us to do well.  One does have to be motivated to practice though.  Generally, the Chil-Sung forms during BBC are learned over several weeks (BBC is held one week a month).  Also, Master R knows exactly what we are capable of and what degree of motivation we have.

Most of my classmates place in competition when they do the Chil-Sung forms.  I know, however, that they have been doing them longer than I. That doesn't mean I can't do well with practice and motivation. 

I am doing well with the Chil-Sung form so far and will get a critique before the competition.

I could ask a 100 questions about the form because I try to think about everything/internalize things.  I might get the answers I desire but that form, like any other form, gets better through years and years of practice.


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## FieldDiscipline (Sep 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> Higher belts are always helping me in class, correcting me and giving me pointers. * I also enjoy helping the lower belts *when I am able to. This is what our Sa Ba Nim wants.



My final two points regarding this.

1) How do you know they have it right?

2) *You* are a lower belt and given the amount you have self taught, you shouldnt be teaching anyone.

Again, I'm not being critical of you, but this is how problems are spread.


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## jks9199 (Sep 28, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> My final two points regarding this.
> 
> 1) How do you know they have it right?
> 
> ...


I have to agree.

I may designate a green belt (usually about 2 years of training) or even, rarely, an advanced white belt to introduce or do the basic instruction of fundamentals like the stance drill or blocking or punching drills.  But I'm keeping a close eye on them, and I am reviewing and correcting the material with them.  

I don't -- and I'd have a major problem with it -- expect students to teach each other without being assigned.  Many years back, when I was a white belt, I began learning a new form.  One of my roommates at the time was a guy who'd started training at the same time I had.  For some reason, he'd missed class around the time that I started that form.  I started to "teach" him the form, as I was learning it.  And my seniors and my instructor jumped all over me when they learned that I'd done so!  And rightly so!  Because, at that point, all I knew were the most basic directions of the form.  I didn't know it yet -- and I didn't know whether HE had the appropriate level of basic skills for it yet. 

One of my greatest annoyances at seminars and clinics is when a "student" begins "teaching" what the instructor is sharing, without direction.  Because, all too often, they've got it wrong!  I've seen people so intent on "teaching" what they learned somewhere else that they didn't realize that they had missed some important difference in how it's being taught today.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> My final two points regarding this.
> 
> 1) How do you know they have it right?
> 
> ...


Hi Field,

I appreciate the concern.  And I recall Kacey saying that students are not allowed to teach one another in her school.  Yes, indeed, it could be a case of the blind leading the blind, leading to bad habits and a total mess.

All lower rank material is drilled at upper ranks.  A higher gup will fail if h/she doesn't know their lower belt material. Every gup test, we are tested on ALL lower material.  When I test for 7th gup, I must know my lower belt material or I will fail.  That doesn't mean people don't forget or aren't paying attention in class.  The material has to be practiced.  I practice the wrist grips and one-steps at home, including doing them on opposite sides of the body.  I practice them at least 3X a week and I often visualize them before I go to bed.

In a one-step sparring/wrist grip practice, we will have maybe 5 or 6 pairs of people.  Different pairs will be working on different sets.  The instructor will tell one pair to practice their set and instruct another pair in their new set.  If I know the grip/one-step and my partner doesn't, I will tell him, "Step left, block right, grab the wrist, roundhouse kick to the solar plexus, etc."  We help one another out that way.  Absolutely, it is the instructor's job to come over and make sure we are executing the moves correctly.  The instructor does come over and review how we're progressing.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> I have to agree.
> 
> I may designate a green belt (usually about 2 years of training) or even, rarely, an advanced white belt to introduce or do the basic instruction of fundamentals like the stance drill or blocking or punching drills. But I'm keeping a close eye on them, and I am reviewing and correcting the material with them.
> 
> ...


You know, as far as from-the-core movements such as twisting, "bringing that arm all the way back to the shoulder," "twisting the hips," etc., those things are taught at white belt level but white belts aren't necessarily going to grasp core power.  Some of the stuff is very complicated for a white belt and a white belt is going to be focused on getting his/her stepping correct. I noticed when I became a yellow belt that the instructors began teaching me why I was twisting and had me twist even more to execute a chop and so on (in the same one-steps and wrist grips I learned at white belt level). It's incremental. We do more as we progress.  I am sure they will have me snapping my punches and really winging those chops.

I know that there is much finesse that we cannot master for a very long time but we can help one another with the stepping and movements.


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## Tez3 (Sep 28, 2007)

I prefer a slow methodical way of learning so all of you won't be surprised to know it took me 9 years before I earned my Ist Dan! I did change styles though and I went from 1st kyu to 9th kup but because my basics were ingrained and well taught I found the transition in styles quite easy. I think you also need a deep understanding of what you are doing and whizzing through the hyungs going through the motions doesn't do it for me. I have to know the Bunkai as well as the techniques. I couldn't cope with 10-15 minutes sessions on a technique, I'm used to spending a much longer time on something and I hate being rushed which I never have been in a class. My Wado instructor was taught by a Japanese instructor who would quite easily spend an hour on one stance or one technique. I don't believe you should learn too much for a grading, I think the best gradings are simple until you get to a certain stage, your knowledge should be carefully built up over time with great care, thought and in my case love! I don't believe you should race for belts.

My way is probably too slow for many but for me it works.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

Tez3 said:


> I prefer a slow methodical way of learning so all of you won't be surprised to know it took me 9 years before I earned my Ist Dan! I did change styles though and I went from 1st kyu to 9th kup but because my basics were ingrained and well taught I found the transition in styles quite easy. I think you also need a deep understanding of what you are doing and whizzing through the hyungs going through the motions doesn't do it for me. I have to know the Bunkai as well as the techniques. I couldn't cope with 10-15 minutes sessions on a technique, I'm used to spending a much longer time on something and I hate being rushed which I never have been in a class. My Wado instructor was taught by a Japanese instructor who would quite easily spend an hour on one stance or one technique. I don't believe you should learn too much for a grading, I think the best gradings are simple until you get to a certain stage, your knowledge should be carefully built up over time with great care, thought and in my case love! I don't believe you should race for belts.
> 
> My way is probably too slow for many but for me it works.


 
Believe me, Tez.  It can be very overwhelming.  My first class I began learning the first hyung.  I had no idea what a low block was or a reverse punch.  Turn 270 degrees?  How?  Go up the middle?  What middle?  Where?!  I thought my head would explode.  I put a lot of pressure on myself, too.  I still do because I know there are preparations and core twisting that must be done to put power into the move, so that's always in the back of my mind.  We are really focusing on the five elements now.

We don't have small classes though and our ranks are varied, therefore, only 10 - 20 minutes on forms.  We can go to extra help classes though.  In extra help classes, we can ask for help on any of our current material.

I think I did learn a lot over the last four weeks but I wasn't expected to be perfect in my spotlight.  I know that from doing my one-steps with my Sa Ba Nim as my partner...since I almost picked his nose instead of spearhanding him in the throat, lol.  Hey, I just learned the one-steps, so what can you expect?  But really, there is no way we could be doing absolutely wonderful after four weeks but we can be working hard.

It is no race for me either.  I want to do my best - I really want to have solid knowledge of my material.  Knowing that I will spotlight or test probably makes me work harder though - it gives me a goal.  People do fail and the testing becomes much harder at the Il Gup levels. Black belt candidates have to be beyond determined.

I'm always nervous at testing.  I know my material for gup tests so I shouldn't be so nervous.  I did learn last night that most people do not feel ready for the spotlights, the quizzes.  Master R mentioned that most people did not feel ready but they needed to attend anyway.  I'll be less nervous at my next spotlight but I sure will continue working hard.


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## jks9199 (Sep 28, 2007)

Lynne said:


> In a one-step sparring/wrist grip practice, we will have maybe 5 or 6 pairs of people. Different pairs will be working on different sets. The instructor will tell one pair to practice their set and instruct another pair in their new set. If I know the grip/one-step and my partner doesn't, I will tell him, "Step left, block right, grab the wrist, roundhouse kick to the solar plexus, etc." We help one another out that way. Absolutely, it is the instructor's job to come over and make sure we are executing the moves correctly. The instructor does come over and review how we're progressing.


 
Perhaps this is where we're having some miscommunication.

This isn't you teaching the technique to the other student; it's two training partners working together to learn a technique.  I expect training partners to do that.  Many, many is the time that I've been working with a partner and we've both "corrected" each other about what we thought we saw...  That's working together.  I want you to pass along to me that it was "full step, pivot, block" or whatever to refresh me if I freeze or am off track when we're training.  But, a relatively new student shouldn't be teaching the technique from scratch.


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## Lynne (Sep 28, 2007)

jks9199 said:


> Perhaps this is where we're having some miscommunication.
> 
> This isn't you teaching the technique to the other student; it's two training partners working together to learn a technique. I expect training partners to do that. Many, many is the time that I've been working with a partner and we've both "corrected" each other about what we thought we saw... That's working together. I want you to pass along to me that it was "full step, pivot, block" or whatever to refresh me if I freeze or am off track when we're training. But, a relatively new student shouldn't be teaching the technique from scratch.


I apologize for not making that clear.  We help one another in sparring, too.  If the higher belts didn't help me during sparring, I wouldn't be learning nearly as much either.  They are after me to protect my front, to turn sideways, to take advantage of an opening when they sidekick, and so on.  That doesn't mean the instructor(s) doesn't come around and give corrections/tips.  They do.

No, I am not "teaching" anyone from scratch.  If someone asked me to teach them a technique that they hadn't learned yet, I would be wary of doing that even if I knew (or thought I knew) the technique forward and backwards.  To me, that's a taboo.  The instructor will teach them when he/she thinks they are ready.  And no instructor is going to ask me to teach someone the basics.  For that matter, Dan's who are not instructors do not teach either except at certain times as part of their training - that means specific classes that are overseen by a senior instructor.  Red belts are required to teach one children's class per week as part of their training and they are also overseen by a senior instructor.

Now, if someone needed help on preparation for a block, didn't understand offensive or defensive stepping, or just couldn't grasp something, wanted help with a form, and so on, I'd be happy to help them if I believed I could be of assistance (and knew the techniques had been covered in class). If I'm unsure of a technique myself, I will often ask one of the black belts for help while we're standing outside of the training area waiting for the next class.

Do you all think it's unwise to help someone with their training if asked to?  How would this differ from a training partner situation in class?


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## B.Redfield (May 11, 2008)

Chil Sung E Ro is a orange belt form and learned with Pyang Ahn Cho Dan in our school.


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## Makalakumu (May 11, 2008)

How do you teach this technique?  How do the forms influence your practice?


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