# Where's the Beef?



## Nicholas82555 (Apr 20, 2010)

I've noticed quite a few WC students competing against each
other, esp. other martial art disciplines depicting a lack form and
structure in delivering solid strikes with little conviction and power
(ie as seen on YouTube clips).

I have an old recording of 3 WC men from HK in the documentary
"Fighting Black Knights"- Mas Oyama's 1st World Championship Tournament.
The 3 WC men who represented WC literally got mopped by the Kyokushin
Karate participants.

I'm wondering was it a lack of self discipline, teaching, training,
dedication, commitment, scared of getting hit or what? I see alot of
them striking first and as quickly as possible without the form and
structure to deliver a meaning blow.


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## almost a ghost (Apr 21, 2010)

They're doing it wrong. There, problem solved.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> I've noticed quite a few WC students competing against each
> other, esp. other martial art disciplines depicting a lack form and
> structure in delivering solid strikes with little conviction and power
> (ie as seen on YouTube clips).
> ...


 
I know the footage you mean. Its quite funny!

Its simply that in many traditional forms of wing chun, no one spars. And when I say spar, I dont mean chi sao etc. I mean putting on gloves and going at it. Whatever martial art you do, that is a true test of your skill - when somene is comingin with a lot of force and not a set punch. 

The kyokushin guys used to train knockdown bouts all the time. Whether it be gloved or ungloved they would train this all the time. So although the wing chun guys were probably more senior/knowledgable on all the theory based stuff, when it actually came down to getting hit, they hadnt experienced that

I know that people are going to quote 'rooftop fighting' and 'chi sao' at me, but at the end of the day, it is not the same as having a guy throwing in big powerful and well controlled strikes. 

These days, Im glad to say that a lot of wing chun schools do this. I know that most of the London schools glove up and go at it and pressure train

There is no doubt that there are some kyukoshinkai guys better than wing chun guys out there and vice versa

The last knockdown karate tournament I went to, I came third place (out of six guys) without getting knocked down and I was a beginner facing black belts. Similarly, I have seen extremely tough karate guys destroy people from other styles (including wing chun). That is why it is difficult to compare styles with the generic phrase 'which is better'?

It all comes down to length of time training, effectiveness of the art, ability of the student, arena that the contest is taking place, size/weight/age of the student, and many more factors

It is always nice seeing art vs art on youtube as you can take a lot from it. I genuinally enjoy watching the wing chunners get beat, purely because it shows what works within wing chun and what doesnt. There is a great clip of Royce Gracie vs a kung fu guy and there are instances where the kung fu guy was doing very well. 

There is an interesting clip of a wing chun guy vs karate guy where they are in a ring and the wing chun guy basically slaps his opponent repeatedly until the karate guy gives up! It isnt great wing chun but it shows that putting pressure on can be effective


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## blindsage (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> "Fighting Black Knights"- Mas Oyama's 1st World Championship Tournament.


"Fighting Black Kings"


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## mook jong man (Apr 21, 2010)

Yes I remember seeing that footage as well , but the problem with all this crap you see on you tube is you have no way of knowing the lineage of the people involved , how long they have been training or whether they have just rushed through the system and gained only a rudimentary level of skill.

From what I remember of the footage the guy looked like he couldn't punch his way out of a wet paper bag , this is usually because of a lack of stance ie ( too high in the stance , and not locked in at the waist ) and neglecting to train power on wall bags , punching bags , hand held shields etc.

Hopefully these days most of us are a bit more enlightened with our training methods and train a little bit more realistically in learning to generate force and overcome force.


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## kaizasosei (Apr 21, 2010)

I agree with the last post as it really depends on the individuals in question, but gererally...
You can practice all you want, but it takes a fair bit of experience to know how to use striking effectively.  Also, speed only takes you so far.  After that, you need to understand slowness and timing-conviction i think is also a good word for it. 
Obviously, the kyokushin will have more experience with contact, therefore will have an advantage over people that don't know the limits of their striking and how much punishment a body can take.  But if the chuners were to practice with kyokushin for a few weeks, no doubt they would catch up.
Although the basic karate skills are irreplacable for me, I personally would favor wc over kyokushin as a martial art, but the contact sports will always have an edge for fighting because they tend to be more reality based.  Well, one may say, what's up with sticky hands? surely that is the apex of contact in itself.  Sure, the sticky hands is great contact in the physical sense, but i mean contact with strikes and receiving strikes in a realistic competative environment.
Not like one flamboyant 'master' who floors a bunch of helpless attacker students.


j


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 21, 2010)

I want to thank u so much for the response u don't know how many WC Facebook sites I joined and no one would address this issue which I thought was important (atleast to me). Once again thanks.


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 21, 2010)

Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 21, 2010)

If I could think of another word worse than pathetic it would apply to those WCnners. I think another drawback and to advocate gear is that alot of WC strikes are directed to the head. Bodyshots and punishment for Kyokushin is almost a given day in and day out but you confirmed my thoughts.


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## geezer (Apr 21, 2010)

Nicholas82555 said:


> Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but *those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.*[*/*quote]
> 
> I couldn't find the "Fighting Black Knights" clip on Youtube, but I did find another of "WC vs. Kyokushin" from the same tournament. It must be one of the so called WC "fighters" you are talking about. I think you summed it up well enough with the word _pathetic_.
> 
> Anyway, that set me off looking for other clips of WC and Kyokushin. I found a couple, and none of them featured solid WC. But regardless, I did notice that the so-called WC guys were mostly chain-punching to the body, which is pretty atypical. Is there a restriction against punching the head in Kyokushin? If so, that would make it a good deal harder on any chunner since we are an infighting style that heavily targets the head. If you are limited to body shots, the heavier reverse punches of Karate would be advantageous.


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## mook jong man (Apr 22, 2010)

geezer said:


> Nicholas82555 said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks for the reply. I was surprised to know that someone knew about the Mas Oyama tournament. I know we should never judge a book by their cover but *those 3 WCnners were just downright pathetic. They didn't represent at all in my book. What was obvious was their lack of physical fitness.*[*/*quote]
> ...


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## l_uk3y (Apr 22, 2010)

I think a big part of the issue is that a lot of WC students mostly train against other WC students.  Which is all well and good when you have 2 people with similar goals of getting in close and gaining contact.

Problem is all of a sudden your against someone with a different background whom doesn't like your preferred range and you have to focus more on closing the gap whilst the other system happily backpedals whilst firing off shots. (Big issue I found when crossing from WC over to my Hapkido/TKD school).  Once you are in shots seem to come off easy. But you need to get there and then make the most of it)

To combat this I think WC schools need to focus on what they already do. However must add an additional element of fighting from an out of contact range and learning to be competant from range. That way they can play the "game" whilst waiting for that opportunity to get in there.  

I think chi sau training is a fantastic tool to develop your close range reflex/contact fighting. If you get a really good ranged fighter whom wants to keep that range whilst firing out fakes and uncommitted or unpredictable attacks. They will be able to hold out that range if they have any experience.  You need to be able to back yourself from that range before you can worry about getting in close for a more traditional WC approach


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 22, 2010)

It is interesting going from an art that predominantly attacks the centre line to an art that predominantly attacks the body. When you think of head shots - the opponent can always lean backwards and avoid getting hit. With a bodyshot, the opponent cant just lean back, he has to move his whole body to avoid the strike. Next time you watch a boxing match, have a look at this, you will see the boxers ducking and weaving etc. They would not get away with this with a karate guy!! 

By the way, this is not a karate is better than boxing thing. I usually compare boxers as they are pretty much the best punchers in the business. 

I would love to watch an event where each style put forward someone of a pretty good skill level, and then let them go at it. It would be like that TV series 'The Deadliest Warrior'. It would be interesting to see gaps in each art etc

That is why the cage is not a good testing ground to prove a style is effective. The cagefighters today train all kinds of styles and use what works in the cage. To go in there with just one style would feel pretty naked. Back when UFC got started, it was almost like that (style vs style). Nowadays people say that a fighter favours the ground etc


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## geezer (Apr 22, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> business. I would love to watch an event where each style put forward someone of a pretty good skill level, and then let them go at it. It would be like that TV series 'The Deadliest Warrior'. It would be interesting to see gaps in each art etc.


 
A number of Roman emperors, as well as_ Mr. Han from Enter the Dragon _had the same idea. History has given them a bad rap, but people really did turn out to watch the stuff...big time. You know with all the evil dictators around the world, you'd think that at least one would set up something like that. You know, serious no holds barred contests between all kinds of fighters with lavish rewards for the winners. We could all bemoan the immorality of it, while we watched the bouts on Youtube!

Or... how about a reality show, sort of a _Survivor_ with martial arts. Pack a bunch of martial artists off to an island or someplace and have them fight for food and privelidges. Again, it would have to be done under the auspices of an evil dictator operating outside international law and social conventions. But you'd still be able to watch on video. Heck the US Supreme Court just said as much about "crush videos" which are way sicker than two guys (or girls) fighting. Maybe we should start a search for a sponsor. How about that Kim Il What's-his-name in North Korea? Or, hey, does Kaddafi like Martial Arts?


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## bully (Apr 22, 2010)

I will email them both and see if they want to join the forum.

Will post their replies, if I don't get picked up by secret police in the middle of the night!!

Didn't Mr Han come right out of a comic book?


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 22, 2010)

Fighting Black Knights is not on YouTube as far as I know. I have the documentary I recorded years ago. I'm going to Google to see if I can trackdown a copy and send you the 411. If not, I'll ask one of the techs at my job to download what I have on another VHS or CD and mail it to you at no cost.

Gonna search and let u know.


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 22, 2010)

True, so true. Those WCnners from HK were weak at any rate. My grandson would have wreak havoc on them))


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## Nicholas82555 (Apr 22, 2010)

The documentary is actually called Fight Black Kings and can be found on Amazon.com..............there u go.


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## blindsage (Apr 22, 2010)

Looks like it is on youtube, in 10 parts.  Here's the first:




 
Here's the part with the kung-fu fighters @ 5:32 :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUm5TkuE9t0&feature=related
It is apparent that they are _not_ Wing Chun fighters, but I swear I've seen or heard that they were, maybe it says it on the cover info.


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## dungeonworks (Apr 22, 2010)

Kamon Guy said:


> I know the footage you mean. Its quite funny!
> 
> Its simply that in many traditional forms of wing chun, no one spars. And when I say spar, I dont mean chi sao etc. I mean putting on gloves and going at it. Whatever martial art you do, that is a true test of your skill - when somene is comingin with a lot of force and not a set punch.
> 
> ...




Kamon, do you know how many people here would like to use me in place of their personal Mook Jong for saying some (quoted in red) of what you just said??? :jediduel:   :uhyeah:   :ultracool


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## dungeonworks (Apr 22, 2010)

I am truly disapointed nobody has brought up the *RULE SET* in Kyokushin tournaments being _*DEVASTATINGLY RESTRICTIVE*_ :barf: to the Wing Chunner.  Man, you guys get worked up whenever Wing Chun competing in MMA gets brought up, and how those HUGELY CUMBERSOME 4 oz gloves would be to the WC artist and because you cannot gouge eyeballs out, yet in Kyok tourneys, YOU CANNOT EVEN PUNCH TO THE FACE! :mst:  So, you have a three chunner's facing guys that train in one of the most HARDCORE (if not the HARDEST CORE) style of Karate in matches which fit the rules of their skill set.  They were undersized and not physical specimens by any stretch.  Kyok guys are known for good stamina and the ability to give and withstand punishment to the body....since they train for this almost entirely!  Of course the WC guy will lose his **** in this scenario as did the Muay Thai guys in another Mas Oyama challenge of that era.  Those competitions were heavily tilted to the Kyok guys as the challenges were fought under their own rules.

I guess what I am saying is that this Kyokushin vs Wing Chun tournament would be comparable to the MLB World Series champions taking on a 12 year old boy's recreational league's "also ran".  

....I won't touch the YouTuber's comments.  You know, the "THAT AIN'T WING CHUN!  HIS LEFT PINKY FINGER WAS WAY OUT OF STRUCTURE!!!  WAAA WAAA WAAAA!"

Respect to those guys for taking to the ring for the challenge.  At least they had the balls to fight and stand up for their style instead of bashing their brothers trying to do the same and putting themselves out there to be critiqued.


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## KamonGuy2 (Apr 23, 2010)

dungeonworks said:


> I am truly disapointed nobody has brought up the *RULE SET* in Kyokushin tournaments being _*DEVASTATINGLY RESTRICTIVE*_ :barf: to the Wing Chunner. Man, you guys get worked up whenever Wing Chun competing in MMA gets brought up, and how those HUGELY CUMBERSOME 4 oz gloves would be to the WC artist and because you cannot gouge eyeballs out, yet in Kyok tourneys, YOU CANNOT EVEN PUNCH TO THE FACE! :mst: So, you have a three chunner's facing guys that train in one of the most HARDCORE (if not the HARDEST CORE) style of Karate in matches which fit the rules of their skill set. They were undersized and not physical specimens by any stretch. Kyok guys are known for good stamina and the ability to give and withstand punishment to the body....since they train for this almost entirely! Of course the WC guy will lose his **** in this scenario as did the Muay Thai guys in another Mas Oyama challenge of that era. Those competitions were heavily tilted to the Kyok guys as the challenges were fought under their own rules.
> 
> I guess what I am saying is that this Kyokushin vs Wing Chun tournament would be comparable to the MLB World Series champions taking on a 12 year old boy's recreational league's "also ran".
> 
> ...


 
Dungeon dude! I dont know whether you caught my previous posts where I stated several times that Ive competed in Kyokushinkai tournaments (knockdown). I used wing chun quite a lot. 

With regards to the rules, the ones that were in place at the time did not allow the opening of the hand or strikes to the head. This of course took many of the strikes used in wing chun out of the question but I kind of made it work. I admit that I did use non wing chun techniques (side kicks etc)

That is trouble with the wing chun in the cage argument  you can adapt your wing chun to be effective in the cage as long as you are willing to merge it with other arts
Most chunners would call this a sin and so never bother

Wing chun on its own would struggle in competitions because it is not designed for that. In the same way that an average boxer would find it hard fighting a mugger in the street with his gloves on. He could do it, but he would have limitations.

Chunners do often to make out that their art is far too deadly to get into competition but this is not a valid reason. Every art can be deadly (a choke in BJJ can kill you if held for too long etc), but the reason that pure wing chun could not be used vs an MMA guy is that it is like holding an old revolver up against someone who has an AK47

No matter how good you are at using that revolver, the AK47 would win through!

I think that chunners do need to step out and try other arts, or other chun federations. If you get your butt handed to you, who cares, you learn from it and develop!

A certain Ip Man (who thought his wing chun was good at a young age) was beaten by Leung Bik but went on to learn from him


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## Domino (Apr 27, 2010)

Not sure if we should post links but I found these pretty good, from the 70's

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqItqjolIyw&feature=related

Goju Ryu Karate against Kung Fu man.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nATJugzWTOE&feature=related


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## dungeonworks (Apr 27, 2010)

Domino said:


> Not sure if we should post links but I found these pretty good, from the 70's
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqItqjolIyw&feature=related
> 
> ...




Was that Jim Kelly in the first link?  Kelly was a good Karateka!


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## Domino (Apr 28, 2010)

Im not entirely sure, but good hard videos from 1970's.


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