# Odd Question



## Kaygee (Jun 2, 2012)

Hi all,

I have an odd question. I just tested for my 2nd gup today. Now, in the past, we have been told that we are not allowed to ask if we passed our test or not......the only way you would find out, is if you came to class the next time and the instructors taught you new material. At 2nd gup, there is no new material, so how would one know if they passed or not?

I have a feeling the answer is going to be "when your Sa Bum Nim puts a stripe on you belt" but I was just wondering if there was some way of telling.

Thank you!


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## rickster (Jun 2, 2012)

There is new material.

Be patient and go to class.

You will find out when it is time


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## Kaygee (Jun 2, 2012)

Thank you for the reply. Unfortunately, perhaps my school is different than yours because I have learned all of the forms (up to passai) and cannot learn Naichi Sho Dan until 1st gup, so, outside of the new break that I will be given, there aren't any new hand techniques, one step sparrings or self defenses as they remain constant throughout red belt (3rd, 2nd and 1st)


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## Tez3 (Jun 3, 2012)

We tell people they have passed straight after and award belts, if you've worked hard ( and paid for your grading!) you deserve to be told properly without any of this mystique stuff.


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## Carol (Jun 3, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have an odd question. I just tested for my 2nd gup today. Now, in the past, we have been told that we are not allowed to ask if we passed our test or not......the only way you would find out, is if you came to class the next time and the instructors taught you new material. At 2nd gup, there is no new material, so how would one know if they passed or not?
> 
> ...



Is it possible to ask the question just as you have asked (how would one know...) with the instructor in private?


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## Kaygee (Jun 3, 2012)

I guess my school is different than others because we are not allowed to ask. The only way we know would be if they showed us new material next class. We do not receive our rank for 2-3 weeks after test.

For example:
Let's say you are a 5th gup and you just tested on Saturday.......
The way you would tell that you passed would be if my instructor came over and taught you Pyong Ahn o Dahn. If he didn't, then you didn't pass.....

But we are reminded constantly not to ask if we are testing or if we passed/failed.

Thank you for all of your replies. Tang Soo!


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## Tony Dismukes (Jun 3, 2012)

For other TSD practitioners - Is this a common practice (not telling a student if they've passed a test or allowing them to ask)?  It sounds kind of nutty to me.


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## mook jong man (Jun 3, 2012)

Thats ok , when they ask you "When are you going to pay your training fees?"
You say "Sorry I can't tell you".


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## Kaygee (Jun 3, 2012)

I am gathering by the responses that this is not a practice that is common amongst other schools. Thank you for your replies!!


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## Gentle Fist (Jun 3, 2012)

In Judo you find out right after testing...  I think what your school does is rare...


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 3, 2012)

You really shouldn't need to ask. You ought to know. You might not be able to predict your exact score, but you ought to be able to tell pretty close. If you're not sure that you're going to pass, maybe you're testing too soon.

If there really is no new material, then what purpose does the rank hold?


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## Kaygee (Jun 3, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> If there really is no new material, then what purpose does the rank hold?


Good question! I learned passai at 3rd gup and I have learned all of the red belt one step sparrings and all of the 21 red belt self defenses and there are no new one steps or self defenses until 1st dan. 
The next form I can learn is Niachi Sho Dahn, and you do not get to learn that until 1st gup. 

I always thought of 2nd gup as just a rank to show that you are progressing.........


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## Carol (Jun 3, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Good question! I learned passai at 3rd gup and I have learned all of the red belt one step sparrings and all of the 21 red belt self defenses and there are no new one steps or self defenses until 1st dan.
> The next form I can learn is Niachi Sho Dahn, and you do not get to learn that until 1st gup.
> 
> I always thought of 2nd gup as just a rank to show that you are progressing.........




That's how I always viewed the colored belt system...frequent steps to keep a newer student motivated and progressing...untill they reach a point where they are sent to go forward on their own, with less structure and support


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## Dirty Dog (Jun 4, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Good question! I learned passai at 3rd gup and I have learned all of the red belt one step sparrings and all of the 21 red belt self defenses and there are no new one steps or self defenses until 1st dan.
> The next form I can learn is Niachi Sho Dahn, and you do not get to learn that until 1st gup.
> 
> I always thought of 2nd gup as just a rank to show that you are progressing.........



That really just sort of dances aroud the question, though. If you're not learning anything new, then are you progressing?

Other than generating income for the school, what purpose does this rank serve?

I actually have a pretty good idea what your Masters answer would be, but at 2nd geup you ought to be able to come up with it yourself. I'm prodding you to think about it...


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## Kaygee (Jun 4, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> That really just sort of dances aroud the question, though. If you're not learning anything new, then are you progressing?
> 
> Other than generating income for the school, what purpose does this rank serve?
> 
> I actually have a pretty good idea what your Masters answer would be, but at 2nd geup you ought to be able to come up with it yourself. I'm prodding you to think about it...


Well, I do know that I have to get better at the basics of what I already know, learn the self defenses and one steps better.....basically, I need to improve everything that I have learned up until this point, but don't I have to do that at every rank?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jun 5, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> You really shouldn't need to ask. You ought to know. You might not be able to predict your exact score, but you ought to be able to tell pretty close. If you're not sure that you're going to pass, maybe you're testing too soon.
> 
> If there really is no new material, then what purpose does the rank hold?



This is my experience as well.  In all gup testing, you are not told that you passed, per-say, but you ARE told if you did not.  So it's passing by omission.  All dan ranks are announced right after their test as to whether they have passed or not.


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## shesulsa (Jun 5, 2012)

Sounds like you have an "old school" teacher.  Many people devalue this as it seems this mentality holds little value for others or that it is intellectualized away.

Don't worry about it. Just go back and keep training. You'll know soon enough one way or another - in the meantime and regardless, you need to keep training, improving, etcetera. I guess this won't be the most popular viewpoint, but that's just me.

And please don't read this reply thinking I am telling you to be a martial doormat - keep your integrity and don't be taken advantage of, but in the spirit of warriorship, just keep training ... that, after all, SHOULD BE your focus, not what's on your hips or your tips.


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## dancingalone (Jun 5, 2012)

I know of some schools that wait until the next week to tell a student they passed.  It's supposed to be another test in of itself, teaching patience and self-control.

Not my cup of tea though.  We announce the results right away.  It's an opportunity for the students to enjoy some deserved accolades and friends and family can take pictures, etc.   Why take that away from the students?  In the end, enjoyment should be a big reason why we train.

To the OP, don't stress about it.  While this practice is an unusual one, if you like your school and see value in your training, just go with it.  I'm sure all schools do something that others might find quirky or odd.


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## harlan (Jun 5, 2012)

You know, if no one is told their results at the test it makes sense depending on the context. Humility and face-saving for one.

But being discouraged about enquiring about the results later...if you don't mind my asking...are you training under an old-school Korean...or outside of the USA?

In my school, you can't even ask when you are going to test. You just train, and train and train. And one day you're told, 'Oh...the next time you show up wear a brown belt.' And then you keep training and training until one day you show up at the dojo and the headmaster has 'dropped in' from Cuba...



Kaygee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have an odd question. I just tested for my 2nd gup today. Now, in the past, we have been told that we are not allowed to ask if we passed our test or not......the only way you would find out, is if you came to class the next time and the instructors taught you new material. At 2nd gup, there is no new material, so how would one know if they passed or not?
> 
> ...


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## Kaygee (Jun 5, 2012)

harlan said:


> You know, if no one is told their results at the test it makes sense depending on the context. Humility and face-saving for one.
> 
> But being discouraged about enquiring about the results later...if you don't mind my asking...are you training under an old-school Korean...or outside of the USA?
> 
> In my school, you can't even ask when you are going to test. You just train, and train and train. And one day you're told, 'Oh...the next time you show up wear a brown belt.' And then you keep training and training until one day you show up at the dojo and the headmaster has 'dropped in' from Cuba...



I guess he could be considered "old school" His master was "straight off the boat" from Korea.....barely spoke English. So maybe that is just an old style type of discipline who knows? It's not that big of a deal, it is what it is and it is only a belt. I saw a saying one time that said "A belt only covers 2 inches of your ***........you better have the skills and knowledge to protect the rest of it." 

My reason for asking was just to see if there was some way to curb my appetite to see if I passed or not.


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## Kaygee (Jun 6, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I have an odd question. I just tested for my 2nd gup today. Now, in the past, we have been told that we are not allowed to ask if we passed our test or not......the only way you would find out, is if you came to class the next time and the instructors taught you new material. At 2nd gup, there is no new material, so how would one know if they passed or not?
> 
> ...



So I walked into my masters office after class Monday and asked him, "how come there isn't any new material for 2nd gup?". In which he replied, "that's red belt to ya....it's a rough rank......there's nothing to teach. You do get a new break though. And be tankful that you are learned the Chil Sung forms because we can concentrate on them for the next six months."

So the good news: I passed!!
The bad news: It's gonna be a long six months until I can test again and learn something new. Maybe I should chill out a bit and start going twice a week instead of three times to avoid the threat of getting frustrated and bored.
Thanks to everyone that responded.


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## punisher73 (Jun 6, 2012)

I keep wanting to make the joke about waiting until your check clears. But, I think I'll pass on it since you found out your answer.


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## Kaygee (Jun 6, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> I keep wanting to make the joke about waiting until your check clears. But, I think I'll pass on it since you found out your answer.



It would be funny to say that. I'd probably be hated after I said it though.


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## cdunn (Jun 6, 2012)

The other reason I can think of to not publically call out who has passed and who hasn't is also a face saving gesture - for the rare few who fail. By the time you are reccommended to test, you had best be able to pass it, or else something is wrong. A brief time before announcement of passings allows the instructor time to speak with those who failed privately. 

Also, I would note that in some schools, the hyung curriculum has contracted somewhat over the years; Kaygee's school appears to be an example of this, as Passai is spoken of in the singular. I was taught Passai So at 3rd gup, Passai Dai at 2nd gup.


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## jks9199 (Jun 6, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> So I walked into my masters office after class Monday and asked him, "how come there isn't any new material for 2nd gup?". In which he replied, "that's red belt to ya....it's a rough rank......there's nothing to teach. You do get a new break though. And be tankful that you are learned the Chil Sung forms because we can concentrate on them for the next six months."
> 
> So the good news: I passed!!
> The bad news: It's gonna be a long six months until I can test again and learn something new. Maybe I should chill out a bit and start going twice a week instead of three times to avoid the threat of getting frustrated and bored.
> Thanks to everyone that responded.



Now is the time to realize that your job isn't to learn something "new"; it's to REALLY learn all the "old" stuff.  This links back to a recent thread about whether there's an end to learning; I'm not going to rehash it completely.  Now that you're not concerned with learning a new form or new kicks/punches, it's time to take what you've already learned, and make sure that the lessons of the others haven't been lost.


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## Kaygee (Jun 6, 2012)

jks9199 said:


> Now is the time to realize that your job isn't to learn something "new"; it's to REALLY learn all the "old" stuff. This links back to a recent thread about whether there's an end to learning; I'm not going to rehash it completely. Now that you're not concerned with learning a new form or new kicks/punches, it's time to take what you've already learned, and make sure that the lessons of the others haven't been lost.



Completely understood! As stated, the only way we knew if we passed or not was if we learned something new at the next class, and there isn't any new material to learn at 2nd gup, so I put this thread up asking if there was any way I would be able to tell prior to my Sah Bum Nim placing a stripe on my belt. 

I look at the whole 2 years of red belt training as nothing but mastering all of the basics of the art so I can obtain a black belt. And that is what I plan to do....get all of my basics down to the point where they are the best they can be so I can get my black belt and finally start to learn this art!


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## Kaygee (Jun 6, 2012)

cdunn said:


> The other reason I can think of to not publically call out who has passed and who hasn't is also a face saving gesture - for the rare few who fail. By the time you are reccommended to test, you had best be able to pass it, or else something is wrong. A brief time before announcement of passings allows the instructor time to speak with those who failed privately.
> 
> Also, I would note that in some schools, the hyung curriculum has contracted somewhat over the years; Kaygee's school appears to be an example of this, as Passai is spoken of in the singular. I was taught Passai So at 3rd gup, Passai Dai at 2nd gup.




Two things!;

1. I have never seen anyone fail a test in my short two years of being at my school.
2. I would love to know the difference between Passai So and Passai Dai. Is there anywhere that you know where I can see these?

Thanks!


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## cdunn (Jun 6, 2012)

Kaygee said:


> Two things!;
> 
> 1. I have never seen anyone fail a test in my short two years of being at my school.
> 2. I would love to know the difference between Passai So and Passai Dai. Is there anywhere that you know where I can see these?
> ...



1. It should be rare, but can happen, particularly with children with various issues. I've only seen one or two occurrences in the last seven years. 
2. Passai So. Passai Dai. There are many various forms that all run under the name Passai/Bassai, cropping up across a wide variety of lineages.


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## Kaygee (Jun 7, 2012)

cdunn said:


> 1. It should be rare, but can happen, particularly with children with various issues. I've only seen one or two occurrences in the last seven years.
> 2. Passai So. Passai Dai. There are many various forms that all run under the name Passai/Bassai, cropping up across a wide variety of lineages.



So the *Passai Dai* is the Passai that is taught in my school as "Passai", and it is taught to us at 3rd gup and we do not learn another form until Niachi Sho Dan at 1st gup.
I have never seen the *Passai So* that you posted before, and it was actually quite an interesting form. I wonder why there are so many variations of Tang Soo Do out there....


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## chodancandidate (Oct 17, 2013)

In my school, if we don't pass, our instructor re-tests the sections we failed within 1-2 weeks.  If you don't have to re-test, then you passed.  

It is not proper etiquette to ask your sa bom nim if you passed or failed, but it is wrong of them to keep you in the dark.  If you passed, you should know it.


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