# Tell us about your home gym....



## Jared Traveler (Sep 22, 2022)

Do you have a home gym/dojo? Do you solo train? Do you teach others out of your home? Do you train your kids? What gear or equipment have you found useful?

I'm curious about your guy's home gym. Purpose, set up, gear?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 22, 2022)

I workout at home. I have two heavy bags hanging in the garage and a weighted deflated speed bag for stick practice. I even have a 12lbs medicine ball in the net hanging for punching as shown on the upper right corner of the picture.





I do my weight training at home also. I use different elastic bands to do bench press, bicep curls, pull down and other exercises. This is what I use for bench press. I have the 200lbs, I still have to tighten the band more as it's really not 200lbs, my estimate is about 160lbs only. So I have to shorten the middle to make the bands stretch more to give more resistance. I can do incline and decline press on this also. I put a stick through the two loops so I don't do it like in the picture, more like a real barbell bench press. It's hard to hold it like in the picture doing heavy weight, all the pressure on the thumbs.




I also have a set of 50lbs adjustable dumbells with 2.5lbs increment and some loose dumbells.

For legs, I walk in deep stance like in Karate/TKD with one leg forward bend about 90deg and back leg straight, just walk back and fore for 7 1/2 minutes non stop. This one is quite dreadful!!!

I spend half the time doing weights. I am surprised I can make it work at home. 2 years ago, everything shut down, I could not go to the gym, I have no choice but to set up at home. It work out so well I don't even want to go back to the gym anymore. I talk too much in the gym, I actually work harder at home. Also saves a lot of time driving back and fore.

I put in about 7 hours a week total.

I am thinking about putting in a 3rd car garage, not for an extra car, but use it as a workout room. Then I can actually put a cage for real bench press and all that. Right now, the space in the garage is very tight because we do put both cars in the garage. I would like to hang more stuffs.


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## Cynik75 (Sep 22, 2022)

Pull up bars, kettlebells, resistance bands, ABS wheel, push up handles


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## Alan0354 (Sep 22, 2022)

I forgot, I have pull up bar, dip-attachment and twist bar also:




Above is the Dip-attachment hooking onto the pull up bar*(1)*   I wear 35lbs weights to do dips.
Also, see *(2)*    That is for me to lie on my back, then use the handles to pull myself up with body and leg straight. I put myself up, hold for 5 sec and repeat 15 reps each set. I might have to wear some weights soon.

I also have these Twist bars for chest and arms:




One can do a lot without going to the gym, I worked harder at home than in the gym because I don't have friends to talk to. Only thing missing is the JAW exercise. I lost over 10lbs since I workout at home without eating any differently.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 22, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> I'm curious about your guy's home gym. Purpose, set up, gear?


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 23, 2022)

I got a decent Set up at home. Weights, incline bench, free standing chin/dip station. Squat stands, preacher bench...other Extras.
End of the day I've seen people get good results with just a barbell Set.


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## _Simon_ (Sep 23, 2022)

Yep have never gotten a gym membership, bought my own stuff ages and have never looked back! Got an adjustable incline/decline bench with lat pulldown and leg curl/extension attachment and squat rack sort of, a separate cable machine (lat pulldown, machine chest press etc), barbell, EZ curl bar, dumbbells, heaps of weight plates, resistance bands, chin up bar, portable dip bars, and a heavy bag hanging on its own stand.

The main stuff (bench, barbells etc) have lasted me almost 20 years, how's that for value! Haven't had to replace anything.

People have said to me I must be really disciplined to train at home, and I just think it's so much easier to be honest. I enjoy it so much that it was never something I felt I had to force myself to do, and a habit I built that nowadays it's just something I do without question or effort.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 23, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Yep have never gotten a gym membership, bought my own stuff ages and have never looked back! Got an adjustable incline/decline bench with lat pulldown and leg curl/extension attachment and squat rack sort of, a separate cable machine (lat pulldown, machine chest press etc), barbell, EZ curl bar, dumbbells, heaps of weight plates, resistance bands, chin up bar, portable dip bars, and a heavy bag hanging on its own stand.
> 
> The main stuff (bench, barbells etc) have lasted me almost 20 years, how's that for value! Haven't had to replace anything.
> 
> People have said to me I must be really disciplined to train at home, and I just think it's so much easier to be honest. I enjoy it so much that it was never something I felt I had to force myself to do, and a habit I built that nowadays it's just something I do without question or effort.


i used to work in a Gym but honestly the privacy alone is worth it.  Even when i trained after work people used to ask me questions.  Now i can train when i want & train in my boxers if i want.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 23, 2022)

these i have. cut 10 cm shorter so i can use them for benches too. Squat stands are great & save space. A Power rack is great but too big for me.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 23, 2022)

Talking of Home gyms.. one guy who trained a lot at home was Bill Pearl who sadly just passed away. 
I never met Bill but i phoned 3 times with him & he signed a book for me. was a great guy. 
I remember one time when i phoned he told me he was just out in his Home Gym in a big Barn training. I said as a joke , hey bill i´ll train with you sometime and he laughed & said why not.  RIP Bill Pearl.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 23, 2022)

We don’t have room for any dedicated space, and no place suitable for indoor training. I have a collection of gear and exercise bits that I use. Most of my solo training is fitness (mostly kettlebells and a pull-up bar), forms (since they don’t require a partner), and some shadow-boxing and shadow-grappling.


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## MetalBoar (Sep 23, 2022)

I owned a very small commercial gym before the pandemic killed it.  I kept the the best of the equipment for my home gym so I've got high end, commercial quality machines:

chest press
pulldown 
shoulder press
seated row
prone leg curl
4 way neck
hip extension
leg press
I plan to get a FID bench, a power rack with pull up bar, and the associated free weights, but I'll either need to open a new gym, remove some shelving from my garage, or figure out some other way to make the space.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 23, 2022)

One thing I really miss that I cannot do it at home is the simple Military Press(Just pushing weights straight up when sitting). Not that the gym has equipment I don't. 

For the life of me, I CANNOT swing a dumbbell over 30lbs up above my shoulder from resting on my thigh. People make it look so easy, just rest on the knee while sitting, then bounce with the knee and the dumbbell goes right up. For the live of me, I just cannot do that!!! It's embarrassing to see a guy smaller than me, bounced a 50lbs dumbbell up without breaking a sweat. 

There's no equipment in the gym that can help me. I actually asked someone to hold the dumbbell on my left side, I use both hands to get the dumbbell on the right side up, then have the guy hand it to my left hand!!!! I could do 55lbs dumbbell military press in the gym for 10 reps. Now, I am alone, I have to just settle with 30lbs dumbbell and do 40 reps a set!!! That really are not the same. My big boss would not be able to hold a heavy dumbbell for me like those guys in the gym.

People kept saying it's easy to swing, I just cannot do it!!!

Only way is to have barbell setup on the rack, so I can sit below and push the barbell off the rack to do military press. But I don't have the room. I cannot set up in family or living room, big boss is going to kill me for that!!!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 23, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There's no equipment in the gym that can help me.


One time I did my double heads in my 24 hours fitness gym, everybody were screaming and ran away.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There's no equipment in the gym that can help me.


There is no equipment in the gym that can help me to develop this.





and this.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> There is no equipment in the gym that can help me to develop this.
> 
> View attachment 28935
> 
> and this.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 24, 2022)

the machine we had in the Gym you could lower the pad below the knee.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> the machine we had in the Gym you could lower the pad below the knee.


I have tried that. I have one in my garage.





Sometime to replace tradition by modern is not easy. I have tried to use this





to replace this.






But in the modern gym, I still cannot find anything to replace this.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Sometime to replace tradition by modern is not easy. I have tried to use this
> 
> View attachment 28936
> 
> to replace this.


You just want things to look creative and fancy. I've seen a lot of these in kung fu movies in the 70s.

The gym machine works. Look at all the athletes now, so much improvement AND more importantly, still on the tip top shape over 40. It's a different world now. You just need to LEARN how to do it, it's NOT so simple, you don't blindly pushing.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 24, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You just want things to look creative and fancy. I've seen a lot of these in kung fu movies in the 70s.


Those traditional training equipments had existed in China over 1000 years.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 24, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Those traditional training equipments had existed in China over 1000 years.


CMA is not doing so well now.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have tried that. I have one in my garage.
> 
> View attachment 28937
> 
> ...


 
with cables you get constant tension or even bands..


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## Alan0354 (Sep 25, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> with cables you get constant tension or even bands..


Using elastic band to do these at home is perfect. You can put anchors on door frame, put higher and hook elastic band for punching, hook lower for kicking. Add resistance to the punching and kicking is very easy with elastic band, It's CHEAP also. After doing it, just unhook the elastic bands and put it away. This is BIG BOSS friendly also!!! Don't have to leave a mess around.




I put it on the closet door frame, after I finished, just close the door and you never know it's even there. I don't even have to take it down. this is in higher position for punching.

Compare to ropes, pulley and stone hooking to a tree to practice to just looks "different", elastic band is so so much easier to set up. Want to bet, it takes a lot more effort to bolt the pulley to a tree, then rope easily tangle up during kicking if one leaves a slack between kicking. At least, it trouble free using the pulley in the gym as it's designed for that like in your video.

I find elastic band is very good for PEAK CONTRACTION of muscles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 25, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> with cables you get constant tension or even bands..


The issue is the rope used in that weight pulley is not long enough. When you release a long rope, the rope will have a short delay to drop. That drop will give you a bit surprise. Your body will need to develop natural resistance to the rope pulling. This ability in wrestling is very important. When your opponent gives you a quick and sharp pull, your body can have natural resistance.

This is why I built up a weight pulley at home with long rope.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 25, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is why I built up a weight pulley at home with long rope.


Yeah if it works for you but the Twist is training all the core muscles, internal/ External obliques used in the video or gif he posted. 
I mean I don't see top MMA fighters using your Set up. They're in the gym & in the ring. I can train all these muscles too with a twisting double crunch, my point being anatomy & how our muscles work as a unit don't get trained in a special manner because of a "secret" exercise training in a wood.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> find elastic band is very good for PEAK CONTRACTION of muscles.


Agree they're excellent & are versatile


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## Alan0354 (Sep 25, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah if it works for you but the Twist is training all the core muscles, internal/ External obliques used in the video or gif he posted.
> *I mean I don't see top MMA fighters using your Set up.* They're in the gym & in the ring. I can train all these muscles too with a twisting double crunch, my point being anatomy & how our muscles work as a unit don't get trained in a special manner because of a "secret" exercise training in a wood.


That's the key. MMA is so so much more advanced, they don't do all those little "need" tricks. I can tell you, UFC gym where I live does NOT have pulley and rope on tree.

weight training is a whole body training. I don't really try to train just for MA. It's a long term thing that combine together with MA as all around training.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 25, 2022)

One thing I mix MA into weight training is for the legs. All started out it's hard to train legs without real gym equipment. But I found two good ways. 

1) I get into deep stance of Karate or TKD that the front leg is bent at about 90 degree, back leg is straight back. I walk in this stance for 7 1/2 minutes NON STOP. That's actually is one of the hardest exercise!!! It's both muscle and aerobics.

2) Walking up the stairs to the 2nd floor TWO STEPS at a time 18 times non stop. 

When I gets easier, I might wear weighted jacket to do it.

I am not looking for better balance and all that, just leg muscles. Not thinking of double duty.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> with cables you get constant tension or even bands..


I don't like this exercise.  I didn't think it was building my core in the way that I need it the most.   I use a resistance band and do a similar motion but I use low resistance, and a chambered punch to do the twist.  His movement seems closer to baseball than to punching. Even his stance is like baseball.  

If I wanted my stomach to look like his then I would probably do it.  But if I'm building my core for punching then I need to stay as close to the punching movement as possible so that all or most muscles that are responsible for that movement are engaged.  

That's what I like the most about resistance bands.  They allow you to get into that functional position and train the motion.  It's also easy to change when you actually feel tension, so it's possible to work all the way through the muscle movement or only get tension at that end or peak of the movement.  And if done correctly it shouldn't take a lot of resistance to get those muscles working.  It will take a lot of reps, but I just think of it as building strength through muscle endurance and cardio.  If it gets easier, go faster as safely as possible, or go a as slow as possible.  Either way there's a lot of options.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 25, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> One thing I mix MA into weight training is for the legs. All started out it's hard to train legs without real gym equipment. But I found two good ways.
> 
> 1) I get into deep stance of Karate or TKD that the front leg is bent at about 90 degree, back leg is straight back. I walk in this stance for 7 1/2 minutes NON STOP. That's actually is one of the hardest exercise!!! It's both muscle and aerobics.
> 
> ...


If you like those 2 then I got a few others that you'll like.  No equipment needed, except for one exercise that uses a dumbbell. They are designed to make the person functionally stronger.

How's your back these days?


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## Alan0354 (Sep 26, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you like those 2 then I got a few others that you'll like.  No equipment needed, except for one exercise that uses a dumbbell. They are designed to make the person functionally stronger.
> 
> How's your back these days?


Oh yeh, I am always open for new ideas. You know me.

My back, I have good days and bad days. I just have to make sure I don't go wild. I am slowly cutting down on my exercise, over 7hr/wk is not sustainable for me at this point. Not only the body, it's exhausting mentally also. I'm too old for that. I am trying to cut down to 6hrs max.

Hell, forget my two stepsons, I out pushup my 22yrs old grandson more than 2 to 1. Particular my older stepson, he's 58, I bet I can beat him in sparring with one hand tied to my back and no kicking!!! I remember when they were in the teens, they learn kung fu and they were kind of joking that I was old until I whooped them sparring.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 26, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> 1) I get into deep stance of Karate or TKD that the front leg is bent at about 90 degree, back leg is straight back. I walk in this stance for 7 1/2 minutes NON STOP. That's actually is one of the hardest exercise!!! It's both muscle and aerobics.


That's "low stance walking". The 1st time that my wife did this, he hurt her legs after 1 mile walking. So you still need to be careful on this and not pushing yourself too hard.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 26, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's "low stance walking". The 1st time that my wife did this, he hurt her legs after 1 mile walking. So you still need to be careful on this and not pushing yourself too hard.
> 
> View attachment 28946


Ha ha, I only walk 7 1/2 minutes, no where close to one mile. My back leg is straight, not like in the picture. I put more weight on the front leg, so it work the muscle harder, but only 7 1/2 minutes.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> That's "low stance walking". The 1st time that my wife did this, he hurt her legs after 1 mile walking. So you still need to be careful on this and not pushing yourself too hard.
> 
> View attachment 28946


how to destroy your knees. high rep squats ..end of story.  Go in a gym, forget all the "Goofy"  exercises from 200 years ago.  exercise  Physiology has moved on. I recommend this guys channel..


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

Look up his channel


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

I personally still like barbell squats but he has some good points if you listen to him


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 27, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


>


My favorite machine! I broke the cable twice.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> My favorite machine! I broke the cable twice.


I never used it myself but tought many Chicks women on the machine ..most wanted firm Buns. Still squats & Lunges are still king.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 27, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I never used it myself but tought many Chicks women on the machine ..most wanted firm Buns. Still squats & Lunges are still king.


There are a lot of great uses for it. max out the weight and the setting to get max extension. It will get the spots the squats and lunge don’t get. Give it a shot. Knee lifts and pulls from oblique positions. Gotta get creative. Not just for ladies.


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## Bill Mattocks (Sep 27, 2022)

Jared Traveler said:


> Do you have a home gym/dojo? Do you solo train? Do you teach others out of your home? Do you train your kids? What gear or equipment have you found useful?
> 
> I'm curious about your guy's home gym. Purpose, set up, gear?


I have a key to my dojo.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> There are a lot of great uses for it. max out the weight and the setting to get max extension. It will get the spots the squats and lunge don’t get. Give it a shot. Knee lifts and pulls from oblique positions. Gotta get creative. Not just for ladies.


I wasn´t calling you a Sissy... as i wrote before on this thread might be a good exercise for some people.
I´ve used cables, bands..even "Iron Boots" in my reha of a knee injury in 1999.
I wouldn´t recommend Iron boots now though but worked for me.  I also think that when people say, "oh but i can´t train this muscle in a gym" .. in my experience they´ve two problems..
(1  )no real knowlede of anatomy or Physiology
(2) no real knowledge of free weight training (only machines)


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## Wing Woo Gar (Sep 27, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I wasn´t calling you a Sissy... as i wrote before on this thread might be a good exercise for some people.
> I´ve used cables, bands..even "Iron Boots" in my reha of a knee injury in 1999.
> I wouldn´t recommend Iron boots now though but worked for me.  I also think that when people say, "oh but i can´t train this muscle in a gym" .. in my experience they´ve two problems..
> (1  )no real knowlede of anatomy or Physiology
> (2) no real knowledge of free weight training (only machines)


I didnt take offense. Just saying I like that machine because you can come up with a bunch of unusual ways to use it.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 27, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I didnt take offense. Just saying I like that machine because you can come up with a bunch of unusual ways to use it.


I get you 🙂


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## Alan0354 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> how to destroy your knees. high rep squats ..end of story.  Go in a gym, forget all the "Goofy"  exercises from 200 years ago.  exercise  Physiology has moved on. I recommend this guys channel..


Repetition is NOT a good thing, one wears out the joints. People did not realize you are born with one set of cartridge, they are not like bones that more you stress, the stronger they get. You wear out the cartridge, it's GONE. 

People think weight training is simple, they really missed the moon. There are different ways of training every group of muscles, I read about in stretch position, peak contraction and heavy middle position and all that. One needs to rotate the exercise. Going 4 to 5 reps of heavy weights, to up to 20 reps of lighter weights.................. It's not as complicate as MA training, BUT one doesn't just push the weights.

The stupid thing is a lot of those TMA people still spread the lie that more muscle will get in the way of your movement and slow you down. I think they are just lazy and jealous because they are skin and bones. Look at the fighters in UFC, very muscular, even the very light weight people have muscles. Don't tell me they are slow. Get into the Octagon, then tell me whether muscle is useful or not.

Not to mention, weight training promote recovery. My back was so injured in the 80s I could not stand for 2 minutes without tingling going down my legs to the toe. It's the weight training they put me on saved my life. I am sure those "Goofy" exercises would not help me.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 27, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I personally still like barbell squats but he has some good points if you listen to him


Too bad my back cannot take it. I was having a ball doing 265lbs, then I felt a pinch on my back, almost dropped the barbell. Had to rest for 2 weeks for that!!!! No barbell squat from that onward for me.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> how to destroy your knees. high rep squats ..end of story.  Go in a gym, forget all the "Goofy"  exercises from 200 years ago.  exercise  Physiology has moved on. I recommend this guys channel..


1. People still wreck their knees in the gym doing modern stuff.  Any exercise that moves the joint has the potential to damage it, either through force or through wear and tear.  The best way to guard against knee injuries to to make sure that the correct technique is being used.

2.  Unfortunately it's not the same thing.  Walking in a low stance or standing in one engages different sets of muscles.  It's not all about the legs.  Other parts of the body's muscular structure will be worked out as well.  Some of the "Old exercises" are still used today in modern medicine.





Tai Chi is full of old stuff but many doctors prescribe it as a form of beneficial exercise for seniors.

The biggest cause of injury in any activity will often be because of bad technique.  A horse stance will destroy the knees if the technique is bad causing the user to overload the joints.  A dead lift will destroy the back if the techniuqe is bad.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Tai Chi is full of old stuff but many doctors prescribe it as a form of beneficial exercise for seniors.


what are you exactly talking about rehabilitation? then no .  I have never seen seniors do your "duck walk".
you have to remember most people particually seniors are carrying injuries and so at times do not have a full range of movement in their limbs. 
It is much better and safer to use a leg press machine or another machine to work a bodypart.  The guy in the video is probably early 30s.  reality is not like this in an everyday clinic. 
where i live i see a lot of seniors riding a bycycle..why ? it´s  good exercise and no strain on their joints.  Walking in a "duck walk" for a senior or other people with an injury is just ridiculous. Sure i can pull out 100 videos out of youtube to argue but i worked for years with all age groups & in our back reha clinic.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> what are you exactly talking about rehabilitation? then no . I have never seen seniors do your "duck walk".


I'm not sure what seniors and duck walk have to do with anything?  Tai Chi is prescribed for seniors.  Duck walk is just an exercise that is old that is still done by people who still have mobility.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> by people who still have mobility.


exactly &  my original comment was referring to an old Tai chi "duck walk" exercise shown by another poster.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of the "Old exercises" are still used today in modern medicine.


if safe but in my experience very few.


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## J. Pickard (Sep 28, 2022)

No home gym, but I do solo train a lot! I run a roughly 2600sqft school and I go in there a lot during off hours to solo train and sometimes invite some friends to join. I primarily use heavy bags, resistance bands, kettle bells, and our pullup bars when I solo train. When the summer is nice I go to a local nature trail, lift rocks and felled trees for strength training and do a light jog to the lake at the end. If you are dedicated enough any place can be a gym.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

Charles bronson the late actor was a great example of fitness with the bare bones. He did rope climbing with just arms to work his pulling muscles & push ups for the so called pushing muscles. Ripped to the bone.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> if safe but in my experience very few.


Yeah I don't get too crazy with my stuff.  Some exercises, even the modern ones look like bad ideas for me.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah I don't get too crazy with my stuff.  Some exercises, even the modern ones look like bad ideas for me.


the thing i always say to people is this, not every bodybuilding champions routine will work for you, not every exercise is compatable for your body. Not every training system is for you.  you need to find out what works for you. 
I feel the same way about martial arts.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> the thing i always say to people is this, not every bodybuilding champions routine will work for you, not every exercise is compatable for your body. Not every training system is for you.  you need to find out what works for you.
> I feel the same way about martial arts.


Even if you find an effective exercise, after like 2 months, you need to change as the effectiveness will disappear and you need new ones even for the same group of muscle.

It is constant changing, constant experimenting. I am open to old ways for training, just not the goofy ones.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Even if you find an effective exercise, after like 2 months, you need to change as the effectiveness will disappear and you need new ones even for the same group of muscle.


"If it aint broke why fix it" ýou can use principles to intensify it. 
pre-exhaust, supersets, negative reps , .. i think you know this Alan you old Fox ..lol 
sure maybe i can do machine press or maybe Dumbbell presses... lots you can do.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> "If it aint broke why fix it" ýou can use principles to intensify it.
> pre-exhaust, supersets, negative reps , .. i think you know this Alan you old Fox ..lol
> sure maybe i can do machine press or maybe Dumbbell presses... lots you can do.


lately, I have been doing peak hold.





I started doing this, hold for 40sec each set, 4 sets. Believe it or not, I gain 1/4" on my arm in a month.....IN my old age!!! This is something I never did before, always dumbbells. Just keep experimenting.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> lately, I have been doing peak hold.
> View attachment 28964
> 
> I started doing this, hold for 40sec each set, 4 sets. Believe it or not, I gain 1/4" on my arm in a month.....IN my old age!!! This is something I never did before, always dumbbells. Just keep experimenting.


i could tell from your posts that you are a weight trainer. not sure about the arm size but i´ll take your word for it .
I myself am a fan of Mike mentzer..not so crazy as he was but more is not always better..less but intensity & rest is key.


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## Alan0354 (Sep 28, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> i could tell from your posts that you are a weight trainer. not sure about the arm size but i´ll take your word for it .
> I myself am a fan of Mike mentzer..not so crazy as he was but more is not always better..less but intensity & rest is key.


I don't have big arms, don't have the genetics no matter what I do. My best is only 16", now as I get old, down to 15" now. Nothing to show for. After 63 or 64, the muscle shrink!!! I used to push 225lbs bench a few reps, 3 years ago, only 185lbs.

I am just keep doing it. Hey, my mother was on a wheel chair at my age!!!


----------



## Jimmythebull (Sep 28, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't have big arms, don't have the genetics no matter what I do. My best is only 16", now as I get old, down to 15" now. Nothing to show for. After 63 or 64, the muscle shrink!!! I used to push 225lbs bench a few reps, 3 years ago, only 185lbs.
> 
> I am just keep doing it. Hey, my mother was on a wheel chair at my age!!!


I´m 56 now but still do my workouts. We all adapt as we are getting into our "Golden years" ..hahaha  but honestly i like your training with the bands you have.  I don´t squat like i used to as i feel it now in my right knee.  was due to  my military service but that´s another story.  I am always looking for new suggestions but mainly stick to basics. never too old to learn.


----------



## halie18 (Sep 30, 2022)

I have a Titan X3 stand and use the Rogue Monster Lite rack at the gym (equivalent specs), and there is almost no difference in quality. I also have the Titan flat bench and that fabric underneath is coming off but it’s sturdy and reliable.

The next thing I want is a pulley system. I think I might cobble one together on my own using parts I buy separately (the Titan pulley rack accessory system doesn’t seem to be well thought out). Has anyone tried this?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Sep 30, 2022)

Right one Poster was talking about catching Bull frogs in his youth...but has anyone tried the "frog" 😃 on a serious note thus will give you a hell of a workout..


----------



## tkdroamer (Sep 30, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Right one Poster was talking about catching Bull frogs in his youth...but has anyone tried the "frog" 😃 on a serious note thus will give you a hell of a workout..


That definitely looks tough. 
We seldom tried to catch the frogs by hand. We gigged them with a pole and a flashlight at night.


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have tried that. I have one in my garage.
> 
> View attachment 28937


You know this is for kids right? They don't even sell this, I had on before I started training. I kind of remember the biggest weight is 14.3lbs, then the rest is less than 10lbs. So what you see in the picture is total about 60lbs + say 5lbs for the bar = 65lbs!!! That's for KIDS, of cause you don't get any benefit!!!

I remember I had 3 of the 14.3lbs on each side, that only made about 90lbs at the time!!! That's NOT weight training!!

I won't even suggest you to get iron weights to add to this kind of bench. I remember my bar is hollow, it might not be safe to put more weights.

You want to be serious, get the real thing. The real bar alone is 45lbs alone!!! Weights come in 5, 10, 25,35 and 45lbs. You train, at least get up to 135lbs ( one 45lbs on each side + 45lbs bar). Then you tell me whether it helps.

If you don't have space and want to be cheap. At least get what I am using:

https://www.amazon.com/INNSTAR-Adjustable-Resistance-Exercise-Black-200LB/dp/B08R33NSK4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=NQI5JWWK69UD&keywords=innstar+elastic+bench+press&qid=1664562191&s=sporting-goods&sprefix=innstar+elastic+bench+press,sporting,510&sr=1-2&th=1

Get the 150lbs, you can lighten it by removing one pair of elastic band. they are NOT 150lbs, maybe about 120lbs.

If you are strong enough, get another one of 200lbs, the real weight is about 160lbs.

Total is $100. Use the light one for warmup, then work out on the heavy one.

If 200lbs is too light, I can show you some tricks to shorten the belt in the middle to increase the resistance. That's what I am doing, I can get up to at least 190lbs(about).

Do it for 1/2 year, then judge. Stop playing with toys and those goofy stuffs.


Now, if you actually are serious, do that ONE TIME a week only, just multiple sets to burn that part out and give plenty of rest, don't do it 4 or 5 times a week. Adjust the weight so you fail at 10 or 12 reps. Do NOT do 200 reps type of stuffs.

 Then you need a lot of protein. You don't eat meat, drink Soy or other vegetable protein to make sure you have at least 100mg a day that day. Or else you destroy more muscle than it can build and you get smaller.


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## Jimmythebull (Sep 30, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> We seldom tried to catch the frogs by hand


These Asian Bulls know the score 🤣


----------



## Alan0354 (Sep 30, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have tried that. I have one in my garage.
> 
> View attachment 28937
> 
> ...


I think you should* join a gym and get a trainer*. You obviously don't know weight training. There's stuffs to learn, hard to tell you like this. You might go wild with your 200 reps and injure yourself.

It's NOT that simple. The *amount of weight, sets, reps, rest and diet*, they all work hand in hand to get the benefit. Don't pretend you know because you don't.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 30, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think you should* join a gym and get a trainer*. You obviously don't know weight training. There's stuffs to learn, hard to tell you like this. You might go wild with your 200 reps and injure yourself.
> 
> It's NOT that simple. The *amount of weight, sets, reps, rest and diet*, they all work hand in hand to get the benefit. Don't pretend you know because you don't.


I'm only interest in "body unification". I have no interest in "muscle group isolation".

I'm a life time 24 Hours Fitness gym member (I only pay $55 annual fee). I have taught many gym trainners "How to achieve body unification - all body parts start to move at the same time, also stop at the same time".


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 30, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> These Asian Bulls know the score 🤣


In 划拳 (Huaquan), this would be called a draw. 

Slug beats Snake, Snake beats Frog, Frog beats Slug.

Frog on Frog, is a draw.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Sep 30, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Right one Poster was talking about catching Bull frogs in his youth...but has anyone tried the "frog" 😃 on a serious note thus will give you a hell of a workout..


Notice how this dude starts with his hands on his hips.

He's basically chambering his hands, to show off his core.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> muscle group isolation"


You can't "isolate" any muscle in the true sense of the word.  Sorry but right there I see you've very limited knowledge of anatomy & weight training.



Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have taught many gym trainners "How to achieve body unification - all body parts start to move at the same time, also stop at the same time".


Try lifting a heavy weight off the floor as in a Deadlift. See if there's " unification".
You seem to think you've some higher secret techniques from the monks but honestly man ..🤣


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

*The muscles work across a joint, in pairs, with one muscle (the agonist) contracting and shortening while the opposing muscle (antagonist) relaxes and lengthens.To reverse the movement the agonist muscle becomes the antagonist and vice-versa.*
That Statement says it clearly. Flex your bicep, the tricep will lengthen.
You still get people who think they can train say  "peak" on their biceps. A muscle works as a whole..it fires together so to speak.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> In 划拳 (Huaquan), this would be called a draw.
> 
> Slug beats Snake, Snake beats Frog, Frog beats Slug.
> 
> Frog on Frog, is a draw.


They're Wrestling bro 🤣


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm only interest in "body unification". I have no interest in "muscle group isolation".
> 
> I'm a life time 24 Hours Fitness gym member (I only pay $55 annual fee). I have taught many gym trainners "How to achieve body unification - all body parts start to move at the same time, also stop at the same time".


You ever practice Eagle Craw by catching fish like in the movies?








This is the movie from 1974 called *Shaolin Martial Art*. It's very famous at the time. There was one clip that *I cannot find the part that the teacher told the student to go catch fish for his dinner*, but only using *bare hand*. This is the ending fight of the movie:






In this segment, the movement is slow, but fancy enough. My friends that practice kung fu like it.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You ever practice Eagle Craw by catching fish like in the movies?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know a guy who's got hundreds of these old 70s,80s Films.
GODZILLA too..🤣
I mean some are funny ...


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Bolo jnr who got into martial arts like his father. Also weight training





His father was a good bodybuilder,  martial artist, actor.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

which muscle isn´t worked or working to stabilize your torso?


----------



## tkdroamer (Oct 1, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You can't "isolate" any muscle in the true sense of the word.  Sorry but right there I see you've very limited knowledge of anatomy & weight training.
> 
> 
> Try lifting a heavy weight off the floor as in a Deadlift. See if there's " unification".
> You seem to think you've some higher secret techniques from the monks but honestly man ..🤣


Just making observation. That guy is cut! What, 3% body fat maybe?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> Just making observation. That guy is cut! What, 3% body fat maybe?


no that would be very extreme & the bare minimum ..i would guess at around 10%


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

my favourite exercise, Squats. Notice how high the bar is on Arnold´s neck/traps is. Definitely like Ed´s position better. 













						High-Bar vs. Low-Bar Squats: What's the Difference? - The WOD Life
					

High-bar squats versus low-bar squats: Which one is better? Click here to learn all about both types.




					blog.thewodlife.com.au


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I'm only interest in "body unification". I have no interest in "muscle group isolation".


I'm with you on this one even though people are seeming to make jokes of it.  When I'm at the gym there are machines that specifically show which muscles it's dedicated to working out and they are specifically built to work a particular muscles.  Doing bicep curls on this machine is not the same as doing bicep curls standing.  It's also not the same as doing bicep holds while moving through the footwork of a martial art form.  It is not the same as doing bicep curls while walking. 

I still use these machines but I dedicated more time to "body unification" than I do muscle group isolation.   60% of my time is dedicated to that.  I spend more time doing this than I do on a bicep curl machine.  My who thing about working out is that I want to work out more than one group of muscles at arm.  If I'm working out my arms then I want my core and my legs to get a good work out at the same time while.





I'm not completely against muscle group isolation.  I have exercises that are specifically done because I need to isolate a specific area.

If I have to choose Bicep Curls on a machine or the ropes then I'm definitely only doing the ropes.  Bicep curls with dumbbells gives me the ability to add to it.  Bicep Curls on a machine and I'm just locked into that one position.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> which muscle isn´t worked or working to stabilize your torso?
> 
> View attachment 28984View attachment 28985


This is just one example of what Kung Fu wang was talking about as "body unification" .   When he says "isolation" he's talking more about when like what you get when working on one of the machines that target one area.  The example that you show actually targets more than what's highlighted in red.  That is very different than this






Do this same exercise standing up and more muscles will be engaged.  Bend your legs slightly and even more muscles are engaged.  To this while walking and even more are engaged.  Do it while walking in a hilly area and everything gets worked.  When I was a teen I stopped doing squats and started cycling.  Cycling developed my legs faster than and to a greater extent than doing squats.  Cycle required my legs to be engaged more often.  I could use push and pull mechanics and I could shift how may legs were being worked out by slightly shifting my position on my seat.   The best thing I like about it is that my arms were being worked out as well.    

I think the main issue for people who lift weights is based on the purpose.  Are they lifting weights to shape their body or are they lifting weights to be functional.  I used to lift weights to shape my body but now I just want to be functional.   There's not "much body" sculpting going on.  I'm not trying to create a specific look.  My muscles and the shape of my body will be what it is.  I'm not actively trying to get a specific idea look.  

When we get older muscle function is going to be more important than having that idea body look.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm with you on this one even though people are seeming to make jokes of it.  When I'm at the gym there are *machines that specifically show which muscles it's dedicated to working out and they are specifically built to work a particular muscles*.  Doing bicep curls on this machine is not the same as doing bicep curls standing.  It's also not the same as doing bicep holds while moving through the footwork of a martial art form.  It is not the same as doing bicep curls while walking.
> 
> I still use these machines but I dedicated more time to "body unification" than I do muscle group isolation.   60% of my time is dedicated to that.  I spend more time doing this than I do on a bicep curl machine.  My who thing about working out is that I want to work out more than one group of muscles at arm.  If I'm working out my arms then I want my core and my legs to get a good work out at the same time while.
> 
> ...


That's why we do NOT use those machines. Free weight as much as possible. Machines are ONE DIMENSIONAL exercise. Free weights need to be balance which work all the muscles around it. I am surprised the elastic bands are better than machine, like in bench press, you need to balance using elastic band, not just pushing up. Particular if I push upwards or downwards like incline and decline press, I can feel I need to balance it.

I am actually against muscle isolation. Only thing I miss is the STRETCH position using elastic band because it's very light at the beginning position. It only get hard from middle to peak contraction. That's what I miss using free weights.

I do have dumbbells, so that's not an issue. For biceps, I do use dumbbells, so as tricep kickback, all dumbbells.

Weight training is not as complicate as MA, but it's BY NO MEANS simply just push. One need to LEARN. I watched a lot of videos(not those Youtube stuffs today, I actually paid for those video tapes) and learn from it. It's a completely different game, not to be taken lightly getting on a machine and just do.

As for me, I am at the age that it really doesn't matter. I'm not going to be a body builder anymore, so I don't have the urge to go to the gym and do it right. Been there, done that. I started losing muscle starting around 64, very noticeable. I lost 1" from my arms even I work just as hard since. There are more to life than just workout.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> which muscle isn´t worked or working to stabilize your torso?
> 
> View attachment 28984View attachment 28985


I so wish I can do this. I can't, my back won't allow me. I can only do with 2 dumbbells of 40lbs each. That's it, and it's already pushing it.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I so wish I can do this. I can't, my back won't allow me. I can only do with 2 dumbbells of 40lbs each. That's it, and it's already pushing it.


I still do Romanian Deadlifts. I also like partial deads in a rack.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm with you on this one even though people are seeming to make jokes of it.


You have to admit it's very close to those kung fu movies on training. It's quite out there.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> working on one of the machines that target one area.


Read my post again about muscles working. You cannot isolate muscles even with Machines. 



JowGaWolf said:


> Cycling developed my legs faster than and to a greater extent than doing squats


Then you've never squatted with any real intensity over any length of time. Sorry but that's the truth. Infact you sound like you've never squatted at all in a real gym .



JowGaWolf said:


> Do this same exercise standing up and more muscles will be engaged. Bend your legs slightly and even more muscles are engaged. To this while walking and even more are engaged.


Sorry but you're missing my point about antagonistic muscle groups working. Talking about curling while walking up hills is just stupidity. I will explain again, if I contract a bicep regardless of my body position..the antagonistic muscle will lengthen. It's how our body works. No muscle can work in isolation. Machines or no Machines. Also the whole muscle group will work ..not the inner or outer heads..it all works together. Regardless if it's "quad"s or "tri"ceps.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am surprised the elastic bands are better than machine, like in bench press, you need to balance using elastic band, not just pushing up.


The resistant bands are awesome.  I wish I started using them a lot sooner, I would have used them when I was teaching kung fu.  It was a missed opportunity for me.  Hopefully, I'll be able to make use of them in a teaching environment.  Maybe my MMA partner will be my next student.


Alan0354 said:


> Only thing I miss is the STRETCH position using elastic band because it's very light at the beginning position. It only get hard from middle to peak contraction.


To solve this you have to shorten the band (not by cutting it) by stepping on the  so that less of it is actually stretching. So when you do your curls use two feet to step on the band and widen your feet as necessary.  The beginning will still be easier than the peak but it will increase the beginning for you.  I like that that the beginning and end are not as difficult, that way when I work my arms to failure, it helps me to ease into and out of the movement.  But I understand what you are talking about it's a down side but it just takes a little adjustment.



Alan0354 said:


> I so wish I can do this. I can't, my back won't allow me. I can only do with 2 dumbbells of 40lbs each. That's it, and it's already pushing it.


Same here.  I don't do those at all because of my back.  The closest I get to that is lifting a 15lb medicine ball.  I do back exercises, just not that one one.  Maybe I'll be able to do it when my core gets strong enough to correct my anterior pelvic tilt and when I lose more of my gut.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am actually against muscle isolation. Only thing I miss is the STRETCH position using elastic band because it's very light at the beginning position.



The elastic band is very good for "body unification". 






When you use weight pully this way, you are doing "muscle group isolation".





When you use weight pulley to do this, you are doing "body unification".


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Look at the thighs of a Sprinter 


Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you use weight pully this way, you are doing "muscle group isolation".


No you can't isolate any muscle. 
Look at the Routines of sprinters. What do you see.. ok we can then argue about Red & white muscle fibres...etc


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 1, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> You have to admit it's very close to those kung fu movies on training. It's quite out there.


Yeah it's close to it, but some of those ways are really good.  They won't make your body look awesome but they will make the muscle strong.  Much of it is designed to strengthen the tendons and ligaments as well.  This doesn't happen much in modern weight lifting, which is why you see so many professional athletes tear tendons and ligaments.  They don't do the exercises that help strengthen them, and as a result they have weak tendons and ligaments that can't support their powerful muscles.  

Some of the traditional exercises are dangerous and I don't do those, especially the way my back is these days.  I have to do what is safe for me in my current condition.  The Kung Fu movies and martial arts movies warped the reality of Martial Arts to the extent where there's some really stupid stuff out there.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This doesn't happen much in modern weight lifting, which is why you see so many professional athletes tear tendons and ligaments


You're talking about another animal here. It's not the training but the drug use & an intensity level far beyond any traditional chinese kung fu training. You're correct in that you wrote the tendons in some cases are weaker & It's mostly due to rapid increases of training poundages. This is mainly due to steroids. A natural Trainer in most cases simply can't increase training poundages, recover so quickly or train so often at such an intensity. 
I myself have never juiced but I know people who do. Martial artists included.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Some of the traditional exercises are dangerous and I don't do those, especially the way my back is these days.


The amount of weight can make a big difference. If you try to swing a double heads that's over 60 lb, you are asking for trouble.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Plyometrics are also useful. Used in many sports and definitely build power & speed.


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## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 1, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You're talking about another animal here. It's not the training but the drug use & an intensity level far beyond any traditional chinese kung fu training. You're correct in that you wrote the tendons in some cases are weaker & It's mostly due to rapid increases of training poundages. This is mainly due to steroids. A natural Trainer in most cases simply can't increase training poundages, recover so quickly or train so often at such an intensity.
> I myself have never juiced but I know people who do. Martial artists included.


Never?


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2022)

This is good training too.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

A bit of a read but well explained 








						CURRENT CONCEPTS OF PLYOMETRIC EXERCISE
					

As knowledge regarding rehabilitation science continues to increase, exercise programs following musculoskeletal athletic injury continue to evolve. Rehabilitation programs have drastically changed, especially in the terminal phases of rehabilitation, ...




					www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 1, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Never?


Juiced? No never but I'm not against it nor do I judge people who do.
It's a Personal decision you make.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Plyometrics are also useful. Used in many sports and definitely build power & speed.


Now, these are good exercise for explosive power. Just I am too damn old for that. The pushup clapping I can do. It's my back is the limitation.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah it's close to it, but some of those ways are really good.  They won't make your body look awesome but they will make the muscle strong.  Much of it is designed to strengthen the tendons and ligaments as well. * This doesn't happen much in modern weight lifting, which is why you see so many professional athletes tear tendons and ligaments.*  They don't do the exercises that help strengthen them, and as a result they have weak tendons and ligaments that can't support their powerful muscles.
> 
> Some of the traditional exercises are dangerous and I don't do those, especially the way my back is these days.  I have to do what is safe for me in my current condition.  The Kung Fu movies and martial arts movies warped the reality of Martial Arts to the extent where there's some really stupid stuff out there.


Actually I for one benefited from modern weight lifting for injury recovery and prevention. I said it many times already I was really disabled in the 80s, it's the weight training that brought me back so far that I can do as much as I can today. I use weights to fix all my injuries and build up to prevent injuries. That's why I've been doing it for over 30 years and a strong advogate of this. Nothing like those fancy stuffs.

There is a fine line between creative vs catching fish to practice Eagle Craw. The rope exercise you showed is proven to be useful, it's not out there. A lot of your stuffs you showed was not out there. I even tried and found it useful to get me restarted.

Stuffs shown in post *#93* by Jimmythebull are very very useful if you are young and in competition, not those in *#95 *unless you want to join Ninja Warrior or Gladiators tv shows!!! Those acrobatic stuffs take a long time to practice AND are absolutely *USELESS *for self defense or making you a better fighter. One be much better off practice how to fight. You see those competitors in Gladiators show got beat up by the Gladiators? To do those TRICKS, you have to be *small and light*. Yes, you can show off, but you face someone that is strong, as soon as the strong guy get a hand on the flying guy, he literally goes flying!!! Seen this so many times in the Gladiator show. You might as well try catching fish in the pond!!!!

The faster way to go from A to B is a straight line. Some like to take a scenic drive instead. Some actually got lost in the scenic drive enjoying too much on the scenery and lost their way.


----------



## MetalBoar (Oct 1, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yeah it's close to it, but some of those ways are really good.  They won't make your body look awesome but they will make the muscle strong.  Much of it is designed to* strengthen the tendons and ligaments as well.  This doesn't happen much in modern weight lifting, which is why you see so many professional athletes tear tendons and ligaments.  They don't do the exercises that help strengthen them, and as a result they have weak tendons and ligaments that can't support their powerful muscles. *
> 
> Some of the traditional exercises are dangerous and I don't do those, especially the way my back is these days.  I have to do what is safe for me in my current condition.  The Kung Fu movies and martial arts movies warped the reality of Martial Arts to the extent where there's some really stupid stuff out there.


This just isn't how the body works, barring genetic defects, pre-existing injuries or other unusual external factors.  Stimulus, rest and nutrition that lead to muscular development also stimulate the body to strengthen the associated connective tissues.  It's a musculotendonous unit, you aren't going to stimulate just part of it.  This is largely true of bones as well, though there appears to be contradictory evidence as to whether or not low weight resistance training provides sufficient stimulus to increase bone density, it is pretty well established that lifting weights in the neighborhood of >=85% of 1RM will do so (regardless of mode of resistance training - machine, free weights, whatever).

If people are tearing tendons and ligaments with more frequency these days (I've not seen particular evidence of such), then I'd argue strongly that they must also be suffering from muscular tears at a similarly more frequent rate.  This may be possible, and you still hear about the connective tissue tears a lot more, as tearing a tendon tends to be a bit more serious than tearing a muscle and that's what people are going to talk about.  If this sort of injury (muscle and tendon tears) is happening more often, I'd argue that it's either because we've developed a sub-culture of fanaticism about fitness and there are a lot more people over training, or some form of exercise has become popularized that's much higher force, or is not aligned with proper muscle and joint function (and thus improper form is to blame,  not strength imbalance between muscle and connective tissue), or people are skipping warmups for some reason, or some combination there of.

There was definitely a time when at least a minority of Cross Fitters had the attitude of "Just do the work, as fast, as hard and as long as you can - don't let concerns about form (or Uncle Rhabdo!) get in the way!"  Plyometrics, while effective, also place a lot more shock on the body than many other forms of strength training.  There may be other examples that I'm less familiar with.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> Plyometrics, while effective, also place a lot more shock on the body than many other forms of strength training. There may be other examples that I'm less familiar with.


Plyometric training is proposed to reduce the risk of future injury by training muscle coactivation through neuromuscular adaptation. This is particularly relevant for reducing the risk of anterior cruciate ligament (ACL) tears by training quadriceps and hamstring muscle coactivation.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

It depends I suppose on the experience of the therapist too but I used plyometrics after a knee operation way back in 1999. Definitely helped strengthen/ stabalize my knee. 








						Learn Box Jump Progressions
					

Learn Box Jump Progressions




					theprehabguys.com


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

🤣🤣


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The resistant bands are awesome.


I think we are talking about 2 different kind of home weight training here.

1. You want to make your muscle strong.
2. You want to use weight equipment to enhance certern MA skill.

If your goal is

- 1, you may just use it to develop certain muscle (such as your arm muscle).
- 2, you will not be interested in how strong your arm can pull that resistant band, but how stronger you can use your body to pull that resistant band. That's the "body unification" I'm talking about.

When you pull the resistant band, the harder that you pull, the stronger the resistant band will pull you back. You want to make sure that your body can resist fully against the resistant band's pulling back.

Goal 1:






Goal 2:


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is just one example of what Kung Fu wang was talking about as "body unification" .   When he says "isolation" he's talking more about when like what you get when working on one of the machines that target one area.  The example that you show actually targets more than what's highlighted in red.  That is very different than this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Muscle mass as a fraction of total body mass is the most important thing that an aging man has to work to maintain.

I don't usually throw out info about myself, but I have about 110 lbs of muscle.  Middle aged dude.

It's not easy.  Kung Fu with weights made it possible.  On a typical day I'm as tired as anyone, so I push myself, even on a Sunday.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> No you can't isolate any muscle.


You are missing the point and you keep showing exercises that require a large group of muscles, (except the dumbbell press). Which is not what Kung Fu wang is talking about.  I know you understand this because they show this on every piece of machine weight equipment with a graphic that shows which muscles the machine targets.

No one does tricep pull downs to work on their back.  But I can show some free weight and resistance bands that work the back and the triceps and the core, and the legs at the same time.

View attachment 28993

I don't do these exercises anymore because they are very limited in terms of the development of muscle groups.  The group of muscles that this workouts out is small.  I do one of my staff strikes while using a bar like but 20lbs.  I get more development of muscle doing that then I do tricep pull downs.  
View attachment 28994


Jimmythebull said:


> Plyometrics are also useful. Used in many sports and definitely build power & speed.


There are a couple that are found in traditional martial arts.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> This just isn't how the body works, barring genetic defects, pre-existing injuries or other unusual external factors.  Stimulus, rest and nutrition that lead to muscular development also stimulate the body to strengthen the associated connective tissues.  It's a musculotendonous unit, you aren't going to stimulate just part of it.  This is largely true of bones as well, though there appears to be contradictory evidence as to whether or not low weight resistance training provides sufficient stimulus to increase bone density, it is pretty well established that lifting weights in the neighborhood of >=85% of 1RM will do so (regardless of mode of resistance training - machine, free weights, whatever).
> 
> If people are tearing tendons and ligaments with more frequency these days (I've not seen particular evidence of such), then I'd argue strongly that they must also be suffering from muscular tears at a similarly more frequent rate.  This may be possible, and you still hear about the connective tissue tears a lot more, as tearing a tendon tends to be a bit more serious than tearing a muscle and that's what people are going to talk about.  If this sort of injury (muscle and tendon tears) is happening more often, I'd argue that it's either because we've developed a sub-culture of fanaticism about fitness and there are a lot more people over training, or some form of exercise has become popularized that's much higher force, or is not aligned with proper muscle and joint function (and thus improper form is to blame,  not strength imbalance between muscle and connective tissue), or people are skipping warmups for some reason, or some combination there of.
> 
> There was definitely a time when at least a minority of Cross Fitters had the attitude of "Just do the work, as fast, as hard and as long as you can - don't let concerns about form (or Uncle Rhabdo!) get in the way!"  Plyometrics, while effective, also place a lot more shock on the body than many other forms of strength training.  There may be other examples that I'm less familiar with.







I guess someone should tell the rock climber that he doesn't know what he's talking about.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> exercises that require a large group of muscles,


The belt cracking is a good exercise that you can use it to polish and enhance almost any MA skill. It doesn't build hug muscle. It build slenderly muscle.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> You are missing the point


No you are.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The belt cracking is a good exercise that you can use it to polish and enhance almost any MA skill. It doesn't build hug muscle. It build slenderly muscle.


You know what I grew up with the Charles Atlas courses & the Bullworker but sorry your post Is just,........
Is that a chinese boy group like New kids on the Block?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No one does tricep pull downs to work on their back


🙈


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You know what I grew up with the Charles Atlas courses & the Bullworker but sorry your post Is just,........
> Is that a chinese boy group like New kids on the Block?


Thanks because you only see the belt.  You aren't paying attention to the other movements involved.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Thanks because you only see the belt.  You aren't paying attention to the other movements involved.


Ah ok..so the snapping belt was just a show thing..
From the OP..
*The belt cracking is a good exercise that you can use it to polish and enhance almost any MA skill.*


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> You know what I grew up with the Charles Atlas courses & the Bullworker but sorry your post Is just,........
> Is that a chinese boy group like New kids on the Block?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


So how will this help my escrima? Maybe explain further..I'm all ears.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Ah ok..so the snapping belt was just a show thing..
> From the OP..
> *The belt cracking is a good exercise that you can use it to polish and enhance almost any MA skill.*


There are things that the body does during the exercises that are also useful to striking and grappling concepts.  It's more than what Kung Fu Wang Just showed. 

I started to explain this to you but I just don't have the energy to explain to someone who really isn't interest in how.  So I'll just end it with this.  Polish and enhancing skill sets doesn't mean learning the skill set.  I could as simple as something that helps to generate more power or something that allows you to make use of what you already know. You only saw one belt cracking exercise and proceeded to make an assumption about something you don't do, or have no interest in doing.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess someone should tell the rock climber that he doesn't know what he's talking about.


I'll start by saying I apologize for having spoken too authoritatively.  The studies that have been done aren't extensive enough, nor of sufficient quality, to warrant the level of certainty I expressed.  That being said, those I've read tend to support the overall point that I was making.  Tendons respond to the same stimulus that muscles do and I've seen no evidence at all to suggest that we can target them separately from the skeletal muscles.  So, if you want stronger tendons, you have to do the things that give you stronger muscles.

I have seen some studies that imply that like bones, tendons may require a greater stimulus (closer to 1RM) than muscles to trigger an adaptive response.  If so, that's an argument in favor of weight lifting, not against

There is evidence that tendons do strengthen more slowly than muscle, but the exact timeline isn't well established.  Depending on the study, it looks like it takes somewhere between a couple weeks to maybe 3 months before significant structural changes can be detected, as opposed to a few days to maybe a couple of weeks for skeletal muscle.  It's generally more difficult to measure changes in connective tissue than skeletal muscle so that's not definitive either.  The research does show collagen synthesis markers (associated with tendon growth) are produced 24-hours post resistance training, so it's not unreasonable to think that adaptation begins at roughly the same time for both muscles and tendons, it just may take tendons longer to complete the process. 

The video isn't actually making the point he (and you) think he's making.  Sure, tendons may develop more slowly than muscles, but they seem to respond largely proportionally to the stimulus (to the degree that we can and have measured such things).  So, if you do something that makes a muscle stronger, it's likely that the tendons connected to that muscle will become similarly stronger, though that increase in strength may lag behind by a couple of months. 

Again, this is in response to stimulus, so a rock climber and a power lifter and a boxer will all develop muscle and tendon strength differently from each other because they do not put the same stress on the same muscles.  Sure, on average, rock climbers likely have stronger and larger tendons in their forearms and hands than most other athletes because the hands and forearms are disproportionally important in rock climbing.  On average, it's also likely that rock climbers have larger and stronger muscles in their forearms and hands than most other athletes.  On average, serious cyclists likely have larger tendons and muscles in their legs than rock climbers, etc.  

Finally, I want to say that the guy making the video either has poor critical thinking skills or is intentionally disingenuous when he compares the visual muscle and tendon development of the 3 participants in the video.  If they were identical triplets it might offer some insight into what stimulus different athletic activities provide.  As it is, based on this sample, it's about as valid to say that smaller/less visible wrist tendons are correlated with greater height.  This kind of error (or deception) is unfortunately common, but that doesn't make it acceptable.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> There are things that the body does during the exercises that are also useful to striking and grappling concepts.  It's more than what Kung Fu Wang Just showed.
> 
> I started to explain this to you but I just don't have the energy to explain to someone who really isn't interest in how.  So I'll just end it with this.  Polish and enhancing skill sets doesn't mean learning the skill set.  I could as simple as something that helps to generate more power or something that allows you to make use of what you already know. You only saw one belt cracking exercise and proceeded to make an assumption about something you don't do, or have no interest in doing.


I'll Stick to my gym training.. thanks anyway. 😉


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## MetalBoar (Oct 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I think we are talking about 2 different kind of home weight training here.
> 
> 1. You want to make your muscle strong.
> 2. You want to use weight equipment to enhance certern MA skill.
> ...


I agree that we're talking about 2 different things.  

I lift weights to get stronger.  Being stronger is universally beneficial to any physical activity I choose to pursue and especially useful in martial arts.  Because strength is so foundational to physical movement, I want to maximize the results from my resistance training.  I choose my exercise methods to maximize strength gains and to do so as efficiently as possible so that I have time and resources for skill development separately.  I've done a lot of reading and experimenting on the subject and everything supports following a focused, high intensity, weight training protocol, centered around big compound movements as the fundamental  component of my exercise program.  There are other good approaches and some of them may work better for some other people, but I've found this to be the best for me and to work very well for most people.  

I train in martial arts to get better at martial arts and the skills associated with martial arts.  I view body integration as a skill associated with martial arts.  When developing skills, I prefer to do drills and exercises that focus on skill development because motor learning research and my own experience indicates that most people learn more efficiently when they don't split or dilute their focus.  If the best drill for developing skill also develops strength that's great, but for me that's a side effect, not the point.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> Tendons respond to the same stimulus that muscles do and I've seen no evidence at all to suggest that we can target them separately from the skeletal muscles. So, if you want stronger tendons, you have to do the things that give you stronger muscles.


Certain exercises work a group of muscles more than other exercises.  Tendons strengthen during static holes.  The longer someone holds a position the stronger the tendon will become as it must stay engaged. The less time that a tendon has to stays engaged the less of a work out it has and as a result it doesn't develop at the same pace as the muscles which are engaged for a longer amount of time.

For example.  Standing in a horse stance will give you stronger tendons.  It will give you stronger leg muscles only at the position of the horse stance.  It doesn't make your legs actually stronger because you can do horse stance for 20 years and still have a weak squat.   In order to make the muscle stronger, a person has to work the full range of that muscles.  Full extension and full contraction.  This is different for tendons.  For tendons, static holds and continuous tension develop those better than they develop muscle.

When you see rock climbers you will see that their grip is engaged for longer periods of times, which is why that guys tendons looked that way.  His forearms aren't built like those of someone who lifts weights.  So he's gaining more tendon strength faster than he his gaining muscle strength.  At most he is gaining a lot of muscle endurance but not any muscle build that will allow him to lift heavy weights.

This is why rehab exercises often look like this (these are actually supposed to be done slowly and with holds)





This is more at the pace the exercises should be done.  These exercises help engage the tendons more than the muscles.  In short the tendons will get stronger, but no one is getting big calf muscles from these exercises as they are designed the rehab the tendons of the angle and not the muscles. are muscles involved.  Yes, any movement of the body requires muscle use.  What changes is how much muscle use is actually being used.  





If you want stronger tendons, then do a lot of static holds where the tendons have to be continuous engaged.  It doesn't take a lot of weight to strengthen tendons.  In reality it's better to use the minimum weight for such things so that the tendon's don't start to tear.  For me it's easier to know when I tendon is reaching it's limit because it's like feeling a cord in the body that's close to the joint in.  It's always closes to the joint in.  Muscle failures are the opposite and can be felt away from the joints.    If you are doing horse stance and the knees start to hurt then that means too much tension is on the tendons of the knee.  If you feel it in the thighs then that means you are doing it correctly.  For tendons strengthening exercises you don't want to feel it in the tendons.  The moment you do, you'll need to stop or you may need to position the body better.   If you are using the correct technique then you shouldn't feel much  in the tendon at first.  If you are using bad technique or bad body positioning then you'll feel that right way that the load is on the joint.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> It's generally more difficult to measure changes in connective tissue than skeletal muscle so that's not definitive either.


Not really because there's a physical size change in the tendon.  It begins to feel like a rope in the arm versus a string,  For example, it was visible that the rock climber had stronger tendons.  The measurement may not be a mathematical one but you can tell by feel and by performance.


MetalBoar said:


> So, if you do something that makes a muscle stronger, it's likely that the tendons connected to that muscle will become similarly stronger, though that increase in strength may lag behind by a couple of months.


If this was the case then the body builder with bigger forearms should have the biggest tendon, but that's now what we saw.  Nor is it what we see when comparing bodybuilders to rock climbers.  Here we can see this guys tendons around the joint are no problem. The muscles will only get as strong as it needs to be to move the body.  They are not going to get bigger like a weight lifter or football player.  However the tendons will continue to develop and get stronger the longer the climb, the longer those tendons are going to stay engaged.  This guy's tendons are strong but he's not going to be able to do heavy lifting in the gym.  There are people his same size that can out bench press him and out curl him in weight.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I guess someone should tell the rock climber that he doesn't know what he's talking about.


There a big problem with this video, You take two people, a rock climber and power lifter to compare the forearm. The two have completely different genetics, I am sure I can find a power lifter with bigger forearm and bigger tendon than a rock climber.

This is not scientific. You have to have a few pairs of IDENTICAL TWINS  or  at least sample size of 200 ( 100 each) to compare.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The belt cracking is a good exercise that you can use it to polish and enhance almost any MA skill. It doesn't build hug muscle. It build slenderly muscle.


Using bare hand to catch fish also.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I'll Stick to my gym training.. thanks anyway. 😉


No one is saying to change.  Just because you learn how something works doesn't mean that it's going to be adopted.  I know how dead lifts work.  I used to do them when I was a teen and in my twenties.  I don't like them, never had.  It's just not for me.  Will I ever go back to it, probably not, or if I do, I'll focus more on a lighter weight than a heavy weight.  Young people often get caught up in how heavy they can lift.  I've fallen out of that mindset a long time ago.  As I get older, my focus has turned toward function. I just want to move without difficulty.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


>


For the sake of Taiwan in today's tense situation, I hope they do better than that. This is not the time to catch fish with bare hands.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There a big problem with this video, You take two people, a rock climber and power lifter to compare the forearm. The two have completely different genetics, I am sure I can find a power lifter with bigger forearm and bigger tendon than a rock climber.
> 
> This is not scientific.


It's not genetics. It's the exercise.  Rock climbers engage their tendons for longer periods of time.  Anybody's body will develop like that if they engage the tendons like that.  People who can lift heavy weights use a full range of muscle movement, so at any point of time during your lift your tendons only have to stay fully engaged for a second. Feel free to try this.  Do a 20lb dumbbell bench press and do 3 sets of 22 reps.  
1st rep will be the static hold where you slowly let the weight down as slow as possible.  It should take about 1 or 2 minutes to go from arms straight to arms bent.
2nd - 11th rep.  You will bench the dumbbell normally.
12th rep.  Do the static hold where you slowly lower the weight.
13th -22nd rep,. You will bench the dumbbell normally.  This completes your first set.  Do the same thing for 2 more sets.

Somewhere during the sets, if this is new to you, you will begin to feel a pull near the joints.  That is your tendon getting exhausted and weak. If you feel this, then stop and take a 2- 3 minutes break to recover.  If you continue without a break then you risk tearing the tendon and not the muscle.  My personal recommendation is that once the 2 to 3 minutes breaks no longer help then stop completely or break the reps in half. 

I can show you this on video if you like.  You can see me visible struggle with 20lbs and watch my body tremble and shake as I go through the hold.   If people can workout and make muscles stronger then it's only logical that those same people can work out and do exercises designed to make tendons stronger.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> For the sake of Taiwan in today's tense situation, I hope they do better than that. This is not the time to catch fish with bare hands.







Looks good to me.  Took a punch and used a lock.  And before you say that this was a big guy vs small guy.  Keep in mind that it was originally small guy that had him in a mount.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's not genetics. It's the exercise.  Rock climbers engage their tendons for longer periods of time.  Anybody's body will develop like that if they engage the tendons like that.  People who can lift heavy weights use a full range of muscle movement, so at any point of time during your lift your tendons only have to stay fully engaged for a second. Feel free to try this.  Do a 20lb dumbbell bench press and do 3 sets of 22 reps.
> 1st rep will be the static hold where you slowly let the weight down as slow as possible.  It should take about 1 or 2 minutes to go from arms straight to arms bent.
> 2nd - 11th rep.  You will bench the dumbbell normally.
> 12th rep.  Do the static hold where you slowly lower the weight.
> ...


No, that I cannot agree. Two different people doing the same exercise can have completely different result. Or else anyone that work hard can look like a body builder. I can assure you that it's not the case.

I don't have the genes, I work hard all these years, I learn how to do weights, I don't have the muscle to show.

I am very familiar with scientific experiments that video is completely invalid with sample size of TWO.

Talk to people that are into weight training and body building.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Looks good to me.  Took a punch and used a lock.  And before you say that this was a big guy vs small guy.  Keep in mind that it was originally small guy that had him in a mount.


Not the kind Kung Fu Wang show. I am sure they train a lot better than that. KF Wang's video is another catching fish in the pond or belt cracking type that just want to be different.

Actually ballet can be very good too. My grand daughter was in ballet for 3 years, she can do high round kick and spin kick in one day training. Kept her knee high, she can even hold her leg in still position up high. Talk about good muscle. Maybe people should learn ballet to train TKD kicks!!! 😂 😂

I know better, Taiwan people know better.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> There a big problem with this video, You take two people, a rock climber and power lifter to compare the forearm. The two have completely different genetics, I am sure I can find a power lifter with bigger forearm and bigger tendon than a rock climber.
> 
> This is not scientific. You have to have a few pairs of IDENTICAL TWINS  or  at least sample size of 200 ( 100 each) to compare.


I'm pretty sure you can't find a weight lifter with bigger tendons than a rock climber unless that weight lifter does rock climbing.  Those tendons in the forearm are things that are developed through rock climbing and the exercises that they do to condition their body for rock climbing.  A power lifter isn't looking to develop big tendons for climbing,  They train to develop big muscles.  

If the weight lifter isn't doing this stuff then it's not going to happen.  If you aren't training and conditioning the body for climbing then it isn't happening.  Conditioning is more than just muscle development.  It includes flexibility and tendon development.  Specific conditioning gives you the ability to do one thing and not the ability to do another.  A person can be strong for rock climbing and weak for weight lifting.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No, that I cannot agree. Two different people doing the same exercise can have completely different result. Or else anyone that work hard can look like a body builder. I can assure you that it's not the case.


The only difference is the degree at which they excel at it,  

Your comment surprises me because in your mind, you think anyone who does MMA can fight.  If you believe that then Rock climbing is more achievable because your success doesn't depend on how good you are in comparison to how good someone else is.  In order to rock climb you just have to be able to climb.  In order to win a fight, you have to beat someone else.  

Train rock climbing and you'll be able to rock climb.  It's that simple.  So much for genetics


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm pretty sure you can't find a weight lifter with bigger tendons than a rock climber unless that weight lifter does rock climbing.  Those tendons in the forearm are things that are developed through rock climbing and the exercises that they do to condition their body for rock climbing.  A power lifter isn't looking to develop big tendons for climbing,  They train to develop big muscles.
> 
> If the weight lifter isn't doing this stuff then it's not going to happen.  If you aren't training and conditioning the body for climbing then it isn't happening.  Conditioning is more than just muscle development.  It includes flexibility and tendon development.  Specific conditioning gives you the ability to do one thing and not the ability to do another.  A person can be strong for rock climbing and weak for weight lifting.


NO, if the weight lifter do grip exercise, it's the same. You do NOT need rock climbing to do it. There are other ways. I do a lot of grip exercise for cane fight. I use gripper, I don't need to climb anything.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The only difference is the degree at which they excel at it,
> 
> Your comment surprises me because in your mind, you think anyone who does MMA can fight.  If you believe that then Rock climbing is more achievable because your success doesn't depend on how good you are in comparison to how good someone else is.  In order to rock climb you just have to be able to climb.  In order to win a fight, you have to beat someone else.
> 
> Train rock climbing and you'll be able to rock climb.  It's that simple.  So much for genetics


No, I said MMA is a better MA. If two people of same talent, one train in MMA, chances are very high he will win over conventional MA one.

What are you talking about, your original video is about how big the tendons on the forearm. Of cause, the rock climber can climb rock better!!! We are talking about* tendons and muscles*. Your video was trying to say the guy that climb rocks will have bigger tendon and forearm muscle by *just compare two people.*  THAT IS NOT SCIENTIFIC proof *EVEN THOUGH* in general might be true. I am saying the video is DECEIVING, not that the general result is not true. You cannot use that video as a proof. Use something else that is more scientific.


It's the video that I disagree, not your assertion. That video is NOT GOOD.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't have the genes, I work hard all these years, I learn how to do weights, I don't have the muscle to show.


Did you work to become strong or did you work to be a body builder and have a body builder's look?
If you worked to be strong then you have already made comments on how strong you are .  It seems like you accomplished the goal you were seeking by your own comments on how much you are able to lift and what is easy for you.

If you want to look like a body builder then I have to ask if you were following the same diet and exercises that people in body building do.  Now when you talk about how strong you are but no muscles for you to show for it.  Then I think you are confusing 2 things.  Being strong is one thing and having the body of a body builder is something else.  Unless you train like a body builder to sculpt your body a certain way then you aren't going to look like that.   Train according to purpose.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> NO, if the weight lifter do grip exercise, it's the same. You do NOT need rock climbing to do it. There are other ways. I do a lot of grip exercise for cane fight. I use gripper, I don't need to climb anything.


It's not the same dude.  Every grip is not the same grip.  Weapon grip is not the same as grappling grip.  Grappling grip is not the same as rock climbing grip.  This is what Kung Fu Wang was talking about body unification..  You can't just isolate one thing and think that it's the same thing as "Training the Grip" when there are different types of grips that need and use different applications of the grip.  

How you hold on to a wall is not the same grip used for holding onto a bar.  Holding grip for 15 seconds is not the same as holding a grip for a few moments.  It's not the same and it doesn't develop the muscles and tendons the same way.  You can't just sit in a gym talking about I'm working on my grip doing for arm curls and thinking that's going to translate into rock climbing grip strength.  It doesn't work that way.

I can't run 5 miles a day and think that will give me the same cardio that is needed for wrestling, simply because I'm "doing cardio"  it's not the same thing.  If you want to climb rocks and walls then you need to do the rock climbing training not body building training.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No, I said MMA is a better MA. If two people of same talent, one train in MMA, chances are very high he will win over conventional MA one.


But you just admitted that two people can't be the same because of genetics.  And that it's not scientific because they aren't identical twins.  There's a lot of people who play baseball that aren't identical twins.  Much of the talent that they have came from training baseball. The more they train the better they got at it.  The less they trained the slower their progress is.  There's very few people with "Raw talent" but there's a lot of people who can train to be good at baseball.

It's the same in Martial Arts.  The more you train the better and the better  your training is, the better you'll be at it.  Now if you don't have good training then don't expect your training to get the results that you want.  For example,  If you want to climb rock but you only train like a body builder then your rock climbing skill will suck.   Not because of talent, but because you weren't training for rock climbing.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

I want to emphasize, it's NOT what you said, it's the VIDEO that is bad. What you said make sense, just don't use that video as proof.

I still believe if a weight lifter put more effort in grip strength, the result is the same. Just they don't.  Climbing is not unique.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> What are you talking about, your original video is about how big the tendons on the forearm. Of cause, the rock climber can climb rock better!!! We are talking about* tendons and muscles*. Your video was trying to say the guy that climb rocks will have bigger tendon and forearm muscle by *just compare two people.*


It is. scientific compare the tendons of other rock climbers and you'll get the same results.   The training determines how the body develops. Different rock climber same thick tendons.




Another rock climbers arm


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## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> It is. scientific compare the tendons of other rock climbers and you'll get the same results.   The training determines how the body develops. Different rock climber same thick tendons.
> View attachment 28998
> 
> Another rock climbers arm
> View attachment 28999


It's ONLY scientific it you have sample size of like 100.

I don't know whether you get what I said. Scientifically, you cannot claim anything unless you have a pool of people. Even though it make sense and we know it's true. It's the example you gave that I have problem, not the idea.

Don't use that video, that was bad, you will get attack on that and mudding up your point.


----------



## Wing Woo Gar (Oct 2, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Juiced? No never but I'm not against it nor do I judge people who do.
> It's a Personal decision you make.


Teasing bro


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 2, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I still believe if a weight lifter put more effort in grip strength, the result is the same. Just they don't. Climbing is not unique.


That is only true if he's doing the same exercises and conditioning that rock climbers do.  There's no way around it.  No matter how we think we can pick certain thing out to strengthen.  If it's not the same movement then it's not the same or similar movement then it's not the same group of muscles and tendons being conditioned and strength.


Alan0354 said:


> It's ONLY scientific it you have sample size of like 100.


Take a look at photos of rock climbers and you'll see the same muscle and tendon structure being developed. Biologically when we make a fist the same muscles and tendons are used to make the same fist.  When we grabs like climbers grab then it's a different set of muscles being used.  Climbers in similar or same positions should have similar muscles flexing and tendons in use.   Take a look at her hands.  When body builders and gym rats work on grip strength in the gym.  Their hands are not in this position and because they aren't in the same position the muscles and tendons aren't being stressed, position, or moving in the same manner.





Most of us train grips by closing the hand around a bar. This is a different grip than what climbers use.  This is grip is closer to tiger claw in kung fu.  I'll spare you the kung fu video because some of those traditional martial arts exercises can be seen in the video below.  Instead of jars they are using dumb bells.  Personally I like jars because you can adjust the weight without adjusting the grip size.








Alan0354 said:


> Don't use that video, that was bad, you will get attack on that and mudding up your point.


As nice as it would be for me to pull up 100 pictures of me measuring the thickness of tendons and writing a scientific paper on it.  It's not going to happen people will either believe or not believe.  It's much quicker if people just look at their own experiences with things like this.  
Or even better take a look at recommended exercises for a specific sport or activity.  You'll be surprised at how many non weight lifting exercises are involve. I like weight training butthe majority of my training is non weight lifting.  I think this is true with alot of training.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 2, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> That is only true if he's doing the same exercises and conditioning that rock climbers do.  There's no way around it.  No matter how we think we can pick certain thing out to strengthen.  If it's not the same movement then it's not the same or similar movement then it's not the same group of muscles and tendons being conditioned and strength.
> 
> Take a look at photos of rock climbers and you'll see the same muscle and tendon structure being developed. Biologically when we make a fist the same muscles and tendons are used to make the same fist.  When we grabs like climbers grab then it's a different set of muscles being used.  Climbers in similar or same positions should have similar muscles flexing and tendons in use.   Take a look at her hands.  When body builders and gym rats work on grip strength in the gym.  Their hands are not in this position and because they aren't in the same position the muscles and tendons aren't being stressed, position, or moving in the same manner.
> View attachment 29000
> ...


No, I don't agree. This is your OPINION only, it make sense that climber have strong forearm, but climbing is NOT the only way. There are ways to train grip, you do NOT need to climb rocks and it's NOT the only way.

Yes, there are specific type of exercise for certain type of sport, that's very obvious, but there is no one way to do it. I do stick fight, I use this instead of climbing:
https://www.amazon.com/KDG-Strengthener-Adjustable-Resistance-Exerciser，Grip/dp/B087X35JJ8/ref=sr_1_7?crid=5NGOCMMFO362&keywords=grip+strength+trainer&qid=1664769304&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI1LjU4IiwicXNhIjoiNS4wNiIsInFzcCI6IjQuODcifQ==&sprefix=grip+,aps,684&sr=8-7

For one, when I get stronger, I adjust it harder, I don't need to climb the wall longer. The more scientific and effective way when climbing wall becomes easier, wear weight jacket to climb, NOT climb longer!!!

Climbing is ONE of the ways, NOT the only way.

ALSO MORE IMPORTANTLY, you don't want to use technique that you have to do it longer as you improve. There is a law of diminish return and* wearing out joints *that comes into play. You do NOT want to do longer as it gets easier. You want to increase resistance and keep it at below 20 reps.

You better do more research on this.

Remember I used to do pushup wearing up to 75lbs weight jacket, I do not do that anymore. The reason is I can do over 25 reps. It is getting too bulky to put any more weight and hard to put it on. So instead of doing more reps, I change to elastic band and I only do 15 reps. You do NOT want to do more and more reps, it's law of diminish return and wearing out joints. It's like doing push ups, just because it's easy, you do NOT want to do 100 or 200 of them each set. Not only waste time, you can get injured from repetitive motion.

Back to the grip strength, I sure as hell am not going to waste my time go climbing. I am busy enough already on my own exercise, last thing I want is to do something more time consuming. I just want to spend 20mins a week on grip exercise and that's it.

KNOW what is your ultimate goal. If your goal is climbing, yes, go do it. But if MA is your goal, don't side track into something that is as time consuming. Don't side track yourself into something that is very involved, if you do climbing, before you know it, you might find some exercise that improve climbing, are you going to side track again? Sooner or later, you might get totally lost chasing something. You might lost your original goal.


----------



## MetalBoar (Oct 3, 2022)

Unfortunately, I had work I had to finish this evening and I just now have the chance to get back to this thread.  I'd like to reply to all of your posts related to our conversation but I expect I may have missed some.  Hopefully I'll hit all the highlights regardless.


JowGaWolf said:


> Did you work to become strong or did you work to be a body builder and have a body builder's look?
> If you worked to be strong then you have already made comments on how strong you are .  It seems like you accomplished the goal you were seeking by your own comments on how much you are able to lift and what is easy for you.
> 
> If you want to look like a body builder then I have to ask if you were following the same diet and exercises that people in body building do.  Now when you talk about how strong you are but no muscles for you to show for it.  Then I think you are confusing 2 things.  Being strong is one thing and having the body of a body builder is something else.  Unless you train like a body builder to sculpt your body a certain way then you aren't going to look like that.   Train according to purpose.


There are 4 primary things that give a bodybuilder the "bodybuilder" look you're talking about. 

In order of importance:

Long muscle belly length.  Entirely genetically determined.
Low-ish to zero myostatin levels.  This is almost entirely genetically determined.  If you don't know about this google "whippet" and then "bully whippet".  They are the exact same breed, the bully whippet is just a whippet with a genetic disorder that prevents the production of myostatin.  They aren't juicing and they aren't even weight lifting. 
A willingness to consume vast quantities of controlled anabolic substances.
A lot of resistance training, generally speaking, more than you can do if you aren't doing #3.
If you don't have 1, 3 & 4 aren't going to make you look like Andrea Presti, or even close, no matter what you do.  If you don't have 2 it will be a lot harder.  Look at the guys who compete in the natural body building leagues.  A lot of them are thought to be juicing off and on too, but they have to be more discrete about it and they're 50 lbs or more lighter than the "unnatural" body builders and they've all got 1 and 4 and a lot of them probably have 2 to some degree as well.  The exercise routine they choose to use isn't what determines their overall size.  I will agree that body builders sometimes focus on trying to achieve a particular aesthetic by training some body parts relatively less, but their success is only a matter of degree, largely dictated by how well their genetics conform to the look they wish to obtain.

As far as strength and appearance go, have you looked at Eddie Hall and Thor Bjornsson when they dieted down for their fight?  They look a lot like bodybuilders and if you tell me they didn't train for, and achieve, strength, you need to explain to me what you think strength is.


JowGaWolf said:


> Certain exercises work a group of muscles more than other exercises.  *Tendons strengthen during static holes*.  The longer someone holds a position the stronger the tendon will become as it must stay engaged. The less time that a tendon has to stays engaged the less of a work out it has and as a result it doesn't develop at the same pace as the muscles which are engaged for a longer amount of time.
> 
> For example.  Standing in a horse stance will give you stronger tendons.  It will give you stronger leg muscles only at the position of the horse stance.  It doesn't make your legs actually stronger because you can do horse stance for 20 years and still have a weak squat.   In order to make the muscle stronger, a person has to work the full range of that muscles.  Full extension and full contraction.  This is different for tendons.  For tendons, static holds and continuous tension develop those better than they develop muscle.
> 
> ...


There's a lot to unpack here but it's late and I need to go to bed so I'll keep it short. 

I've not seen any indication that static holds are more effective at strengthening tendons and I just looked again.  I found this meta-analysis I hadn't seen before that looked at 27 different studies on the topic of increasing tendon strength and it concluded specifically that concentric-eccentric resistance training (which includes standard weight lifting), eccentric (negative only training) and isometric training (which would include the horse stance) are all equally effective at improving tendon strength in healthy individuals and that the results for plyometrics were less clear.  They also concluded that higher intensity contractions and weights closer to 1RM were significantly more effective than low intensity contractions and lighter loads. 

Note, this was specifically looking at healthy subjects.  Rehabilitation is another matter and the methods and objectives may be substantially different when dealing with tendons suffering from compromised integrity.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I've fallen out of that mindset a long time ago. As I get older, my focus has turned toward function. I just want to move without difficulty


More older people than ever are in Gyms all around the USA unless you've been living under a Rock you should know this . You've a negative mentality towards anything Gym related,  your Obsession with climbers tendons is unhealthy. Check out Mike Mentzers forearms...


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Anyway check out these Mongolian Bros🤣 baseball bat his abs...


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

One thing I've noticed as I get older is my weight workouts are shorter, but intensive. More recovery time. It makes sense. I feel sronger now & multiple sets & multiple exercises are a thing of the past. Indeed I've dropped my working sets to 2. One warm up Set then 2 relatively high intensity sets. Not as extreme as Mike Mentzers training but I do like his ideas. I can't do these on every workout but I'll use intensity techniques,  negatives,  forced reps..etc  High rep training stuff is for me martial arts practice.





Certainly not the only way to train & some do very well with volume training..but you got to find out what's good for your body. Rest & recovery 





						Mike Mentzer High Intensity Training Information
					

Mike Mentzer FAQ, the ultimate resource for Mike Mentzer high intensity training information, read the most frequently asked questions and answers about Mike Mentzer and his Heavy Duty, High Intensity Training. Also you can submit any questions you have about HIT bodybuilding workouts...



					www.trulyhuge.com


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> One thing I've noticed as I get older is my weight workouts are shorter, but intensive. More recovery time. It makes sense. I feel sronger now & multiple sets & multiple exercises are a thing of the past. Indeed I've dropped my working sets to 2. One warm up Set then 2 relatively high intensity sets. Not as extreme as Mike Mentzers training but I do like his ideas. I can't do these on every workout but I'll use intensity techniques,  negatives,  forced reps..etc  High rep training stuff is for me martial arts practice.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2 sets? I thought people usually do 4 sets. It's hard to get to the 4th!!! But seems like the 4th burns more.

I am open for experiment, I feel stale anyway.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> 2 sets? I thought people usually do 4 sets. It's hard to get to the 4th!!! But seems like the 4th burns more.
> 
> I am open for experiment, I feel stale anyway.


I used to pyramid up in weight so in reality the last Set say Set number 4/5 was the real working Set, however you're holding back on the other Sets or when using multiple sets & exercises in general. Wasted energy. If I do 3 or 4 exercises per body part..which of these exercises was really productive. I think it's better with 2 exercises I feel stimulate growth than doing other exercises for no real results


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

I always liked Greg Plitt (RIP)  you want funtional strength..he had it all. was i think an ex US Ranger too. 
Dude was ripped !


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

I like how greg mixed it up..bodyweight stuff & weights. seen some amazing results from this type of training too..


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> No, I don't agree. This is your OPINION only, it make sense that climber have strong forearm, but climbing is NOT the only way.


If you want to have same muscular and tendon build that climbers have then yes.  If you just want strong forearms that aren't designed for climbing then no you don't have to. But if you want thick tendons in your forearm like the climbers have then you will need to do the same training they do which includes climbing. Climbing puts various stresses on the body that as the climber moves through various positions.  You can't simulate those same positions and stress without actually climbing.   Again if you just want strong forearms then there are many ways to do that.  If you want a climbers grip or forearm then you'll need to climb.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you want a climbers grip or forearm then you'll need to climb.


so they have a different anatomy to us mere mortals?  what will they train that an overhand grip chin won´t? or lifting a 400LB deadlift won´t?  talking about no lifting aids here such as straps.
you know what i think you´re talking more specifics here..if i want to be a good climber i climb...if i want to be a good runner i run..it´s logical.  However the muscles can be trained in many ways. sure a climber has great grip but i have done chins in the gym using just my finger grip on a climbers grip.  however i´m no climber & don´t have their skills.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I do stick fight, I use this instead of climbing:


That's because you don't use the same grip that climbers use.  That grip exercise equipment is good for when you want to close your hand around something like a bat , an arm , or a stick.  It doesn't condition the grip for an open grip that climbers use.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

now this climber talks like pinch grip training is something new..it´s not. Old time strength guys did pinch grips decades ago. Indeed bodybuilders too, pinching a smooth barbell plate. try it.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> so they have a different anatomy to us mere mortals?  what will they train that an overhand grip chin won´t? or lifting a 400LB deadlift won´t?  talking about no lifting aids here such as straps.
> you know what i think you´re talking more specifics here..if i want to be a good climber i climb...if i want to be a good runner i run..it´s logical.  However the muscles can be trained in many ways. sure a climber has great grip but i have done chins in the gym using just my finger grip on a climbers grip.  however i´m no climber & don´t have their skills.


They develop their muscles differently, in a way that is beneficial to climbing. It is specialized muscle development based on the mechanics of using the fingers to grip the type of surfaces they hold on to which is why the.  There's actually a video that a climber made to develop the muscles when there is no way to climb.  He didn't recommend any of the stuff that Alan has suggest or how body builders train.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> There's actually a video that a climber made to develop the muscles when there is no way to climb. He didn't recommend any of the stuff that Alan has suggest or how body builders train.


dosn´t mean Alan is wrong though does it. Post the video


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> now this climber talks like pinch grip training is something new..it´s not. Old time strength guys did pinch grips decades ago. Indeed bodybuilders too, pinching a smooth barbell plate. try it.


The climber pinch grip is like training tiger claw.  But it's not the same as what the plate grip strength is.  The amount that the hand is opened or closed makes a difference and the angle of the arm makes a difference in how the muscles and tendons are developed.  There may be a valid reason why most climbers he knows don't use the same training tool or why he didn't show the plate grip.  The pinch climber tool may be what is new and not the exercise. The tool seems to target specific types of grips.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The climber pinch grip is like training tiger claw.  But it's not the same as what the plate grip strength is.  The amount that the hand is opened or closed makes a difference and the angle of the arm makes a difference in how the muscles and tendons are developed.  There may be a valid reason why most climbers he knows don't use the same training tool or why he didn't show the plate grip.  The pinch climber tool may be what is new and not the exercise. The tool seems to target specific types of grips.


post up the video showing the special training then i will give my opinion...  until then all this "Tiger Claw" stuff is just nonsence.


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## geezer (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> More older people than ever are in Gyms all around the USA unless you've been living under a Rock you should know this . You've a negative mentality towards anything Gym related,  your Obsession with climbers tendons is unhealthy. Check out Mike Mentzers forearms...
> View attachment 29001


Now that ^^^^ looks unhealthy! Now I'm sure he has a strong grip, but for_ functionality_ how does it stack up?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

geezer said:


> Now that ^^^^ looks unhealthy! Now I'm sure he has a strong grip, but for_ functionality_ how does it stack up?


how functional must a grip be..to grip. either it´s strong or it´s not.  sure over many repatitions i can´t say for him as he passed some years back but mine are certainly good & have staminia.  I think that´s the direction you´re going.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

but Gentlemen let´s not divert from my question to the "Tiger Claw" i want to see this amazing video which was mentioned. then we can comment on it. only fair?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> dosn´t mean Alan is wrong though does it. Post the video


Alan is talking about grip strength in general.  I'm talking grip for a specific function.  To me it's like running.  The type of running determines how the muscles develop long distance and sprinters don't have the same type of muscle development. Soccer players run all the time but their legs don't look like distant runners leg nor do they look like sprinter legs.  All 3 do different exercises to develop their legs for the specific running that they do.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> If you want to have same muscular and tendon build that climbers have then yes.  If you just want strong forearms that aren't designed for climbing then no you don't have to. But if you want thick tendons in your forearm like the climbers have then you will need to do the same training they do which includes climbing. Climbing puts various stresses on the body that as the climber moves through various positions.  You can't simulate those same positions and stress without actually climbing.   Again if you just want strong forearms then there are many ways to do that.  If you want a climbers grip or forearm then you'll need to climb.


I think you miss the whole science of GENETICS. I don't think I can get you to understand this until you have some basic knowledge of genetics.

There are more efficient way to do things. So far the best way I know of is high resistance, low reps to build strength, not a repetitive motion and keep climbing. You keep it below 15 reps. You can do it, add resistance and keep it at 10reps or so. You get the max effect from the shortest amount of time and move onto other essential training.

I think you need to look into the real weight and strength training of modern days.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Alan is talking about grip strength in general.  I'm talking grip for a specific function.  To me it's like running.  The type of running determines how the muscles develop long distance and sprinters don't have the same type of muscle development. Soccer players run all the time but their legs don't look like distant runners leg nor do they look like sprinter legs.  All 3 do different exercises to develop their legs for the specific running that they do.


true sprinters have different musculature to a marathon runner, red & white muscle fibres or slow fast twitch. however the "Tiger claw" ...show me the sectrets of this muscle/tendon training.
By the way in your post you´re just posting what i have wrote before.  has nothing to do with what you´re bringing over, let´s be clear about this.. there´s nothing in my opinion that can´t be trained in a gym.  The chinese even hang weights off their balls & penis. 
The way i see it is this..if Grasshopper was living now in our time...how would he train??


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

ok i´ll help you 








						The different types of muscle fiber: The secret of real athleticism
					

Why are sprinters muscular and runners thin? What are red and white muscle fibers? What are slow twitch and fast twitch fibers?




					www.freeletics.com


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I think you miss the whole science of GENETICS. I don't think I can get you to understand this until you have some basic knowledge of genetics.
> 
> There are more efficient way to do things. So far the best way I know of is high resistance, low reps to build strength, not a repetitive motion and keep climbing. You keep it below 15 reps. You can do it, add resistance and keep it at 10reps or so. You get the max effect from the shortest amount of time and move onto other essential training.
> 
> I think you need to look into the real weight and strength training of modern days.


Alan do you know this secret "Tiger Claw" training?  seems there´s no video ..he´ll probably produce some 70s kung fu nonsence !


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

Also, there's an important point about training. You have to know whether you are training for explosiveness or endurance. You train differently if you are training for 100yds dash vs 26 miles marathon. Same as grip strength, are you training for endurance or short time explosive strength. For endurance, climbing makes more sense. but for self defense and MA, explosive is a lot more important. Body strength train training fits a lot better for that. High weight, LOW reps.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Also, there's an important point about training. You have to know whether you are training for explosiveness or endurance. You train differently if you are training for 100yds dash vs 26 miles marathon. Same as grip strength, are you training for endurance or short time explosive strength. For endurance, climbing makes more sense. but for self defense and MA, explosive is a lot more important. Body strength train training fits a lot better for that. High weight, LOW reps.


i had a good friend who moved to Norway so don´t see him much now but..he was a great runner & it challanged me to run with him but in my home gym he was weak..very weak.  He said to me one day day after a gym session in his local gym (he had a gym membership).. these* big fat guys *who lift heavy ..but they couldn´t run with me !
I said but listen..what will you do in a real fight? run away... fact is strength is needed. real world power and strength. 
If i remember correctly the Gym guys were joking about his bench presses with a 20kg barbell.  An empty Olympic bar


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

I am pretty confident that if you test between a top climber against top weight trainer how heavy a gripper they can squeeze, my bet is on the weight trainer.


BUT, if you test how long can they squeeze and hold the gripper, I bet the climber will win.

So the question is which one is more important for you. Then train accordingly.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

iron grip bro...


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> however the "Tiger claw" ...show me the sectrets of this muscle/tendon training.


It's the same as this but with a jar with a large lid that forces the hand to grip with a hand that is opened more.  The picture below shows the same exercise but the hand isn't opened wide enough for tiger claw which is why using a large plastic jar is better. You can find a lid that fits the width of your hand so that it forms the tiger claw.  Then you hold it like what you see in the picture. With tiger claw the grip is at the finger tips.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Alan do you know this secret "Tiger Claw" training?  seems there´s no video ..he´ll probably produce some 70s kung fu nonsence !


See the picture of the guy gripping the dumbbell.  Does that look 70s to you?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> ok i´ll help you
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't need help. I ran track and cross country running competitively for 6 years.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> See the picture of the guy gripping the dumbbell.  Does that look 70s to you?


the functions of the forearms & hand muscles are the same as in Barbell pinch gripping.  I have explained this to you over & over again. regardless of what you post . This was my point.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> there´s nothing in my opinion that can´t be trained in a gym.


I can think of a lot things that can't be trained in a gym.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't need help. I ran track and cross country running competitively for 6 years.


OK


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I can think of a lot things that can't be trained in a gym.


like what? remember with weight training deeper muscles & also the nervous system is taxed.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am pretty confident that if you test between a top climber against top weight trainer how heavy a gripper they can squeeze, my bet is on the weight trainer.


Ask that trainer to out perform the climber in using his grip to climb and the climber will win.  There is already video of this online.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ask that trainer to out perform the climber in using his grip to climb and the climber will win.  There is already video of this online.


Of cause, that's in the climber's court yard. Ask the climber to fight or even stick fight, it's a whole different story.

You follow the difference between explosiveness and endurance? Fighting and even cane fight are explosive type, lot of force for a few seconds and you get to rest in between. I am sure you make a good case in a climbing forum.

You need to follow the science. Strength training advanced a lot in the last 40 years. And it is very specific.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyway check out these Mongolian Bros🤣 baseball bat his abs...


This video was freaking awesome.

You're posting too many great videos man, it's hard to get any work done lol


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> the functions of the forearms & hand muscles are the same as in Barbell pinch gripping. I have explained this to you over & over again. regardless of what you post .


It's not. Try rock climbing or climb the wall so you can see for yourself.  I've done both. The rock climbing I did was 30 ft up no rope in tennis shoes.  There was nothing for me to grasp my hand around. Everything was an open hand grip. Find a place to grab was mostly cracks and ledges in the rock to grab on. To this day I don't know how I didn't fall.  I remember how my fingers tips hurt, how my hang was cramped, and that after a certain point the option to climb down was no longer possible. You should give it a try so you can see the difference.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> This video was freaking awesome.
> 
> You're posting too many great videos man, it's hard to get any work done lol


Some great Posters on this thread...it's burning 🤣


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> the functions of the forearms & hand muscles are the same as in Barbell pinch gripping.  I have explained this to you over & over again. regardless of what you post . This was my point.


I know the exact exercise Jow Ga is talking about.  It's not bad as far as a grip strength exercise, it's basically low budget training (you fill two jars with water or sand or rocks and then does farmer carry, basically, using your fingertips to secure the jar).  Takes some practice, and hilarious when someone drops one.  Saw one explode on the ground once.  Very messy.

but to your point, you'll get it with almost any weight you can wrap your fingers around.  I know badass dudes that can palm medicine balls.

MY personal go to exercise for tiger claw nowadays is farmer carrying two 40lb Poland Spring jugs around my house.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Ask that trainer to out perform the climber in using his grip to climb and the climber will win.  There is already video of this online.


Dude this is a martial arts forum,  this is a weight training thread. Why not join a Rock climbing forum. Can post your wisdom there. Here it's pretty much obsolet


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Of cause, that's in the climber's court yard. Ask the climber to fight or even stick fight, it's a whole different story.


Way off of anything I've stated. The only thing I'm talking about is muscle and tendon development. I wouldn't expect a climber to have the same muscle development  that a person who fights with a stick fighter would have.  I've already stated as much when I said that the activity dictates how the muscle developes.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know the exact exercise Jow Ga is talking about.  It's not bad as far as a grip strength exercise, it's basically low budget training (you fill two jars with water or sand or rocks and then does farmer carry, basically, using your fingertips to secure the jar).  Takes some practice, and hilarious when someone drops one.  Saw one explode on the ground once.  Very messy.
> 
> but to your point, you'll get it with almost any weight you can wrap your fingers around.  I know badass dudes that can palm medicine balls.
> 
> MY personal go to exercise for tiger claw nowadays is farmer carrying two 40lb Poland Spring jugs around my house.


I know the local Goju ryu do this but also other exercises


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Dude this is a martial arts forum,  this is a weight training thread. Why not join a Rock climbing forum. Can post your wisdom there. Here it's pretty much obsolet


We were talking about muscle and tendon development and gym equipment.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know the exact exercise Jow Ga is talking about.  It's not bad as far as a grip strength exercise, it's basically low budget training (you fill two jars with water or sand or rocks and then does farmer carry, basically, using your fingertips to secure the jar).  Takes some practice, and hilarious when someone drops one.  Saw one explode on the ground once.  Very messy.
> 
> but to your point, you'll get it with almost any weight you can wrap your fingers around.  I know badass dudes that can palm medicine balls.
> 
> MY personal go to exercise for tiger claw nowadays is farmer carrying two 40lb Poland Spring jugs around my house.


Not by catching fish in the river? 😂


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Pigs head anyone?


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 3, 2022)

What do you think of these things









						Fat Gripz
					

FAT GRIPZ - THE ULTIMATE ARM BUILDER Fat Gripz are being used by thousands of athletes and military around the world for: Weight lifting, strength training and powerlifting, including members of the US Special Forces, teams in the NFL/MLB/NHL, top MMA fighters and top bodybuilders.Thick bar...




					www.serioussteel.com


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> We were talking about muscle and tendon development and gym equipment.


Yeah but you're turning it into a Rock climbing worship thread. 😑


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Pigs head anyone?


I am hungry!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know badass dudes that can palm medicine balls


Do they have large hands?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am hungry!!!


The pigs ear looked crispy 🤣


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah but you're turning it into a Rock climbing worship thread. 😑


I've been talking about muscle development and function rock climber was just an example.  I can switch to martial arts and some things in martial will follow the same pattern.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> What do you think of these things
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A more open grip will make a big difference compared to a smaller grip where the finger can wrap around the par.  I have a 15 pound bar that's about the same diameter. I use it as weight training for my staff. 

That open grip makes all the difference. Personally I think I would like just so the bar doesn't feel like it's cutting into my hand.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Alan is talking about grip strength in general.  I'm talking grip for a specific function.  To me it's like running.  The type of running determines how the muscles develop long distance and sprinters don't have the same type of muscle development. Soccer players run all the time but their legs don't look like distant runners leg nor do they look like sprinter legs.  All 3 do different exercises to develop their legs for the specific running that they do.


There are a lot of complex interactions going on here.  It's true that you can train for particular activities and improve your strength for those activities specific requirements and you will get benefits.  It's also true that your genetics will play a role in how successful you are at adapting yourself to those activities and determine the absolute potential that you might reach at your peak.  Some things are entirely genetically determined, others are largely genetically determined once you're a fully matured adult, some things are partially genetically determined and other things are pretty plastic.

Top performers in any athletic endeavor tend to look similar because they have the attributes that are most advantageous for that sport.  There are of course outliers who break the mold because they have some other asset in which they a excel that allows them to overcome their deficiencies in other areas.  Many of these characteristics are genetically fixed and can't be altered by anything short of major surgery.  Some of them can be largely developed through training and some are in between.  

Some of these are obvious and pretty fully understood.  If you want to play pro basketball you better be over 6' tall or have some really extraordinarily, amazing athletic abilities to compensate for your lack of height.  We know that once you're full grown you aren't getting any taller outside of hazardous leg lengthening surgery.  Muscle belly length is another example.  Not gonna change once you're an adult and your potential for muscle belly length probably isn't going to change once you're conceived.  If you've got really short muscle bellies you aren't likely to be a pro bodybuilder not matter how hard you work, though you can still probably get really strong.

On the other end of the spectrum is skill development.  Anyone can get good coaching and practice and improve their skill, though some people seem to have different aptitudes than others.  Things like muscle fiber type distribution fall somewhere in the middle.  It is probably largely, but not completely, genetically determined, but it can be shifted to some degree, not yet well established by research, towards fast or slow twitch fibers by training choices.  VO2 max also falls in this category.  Most evidence indicates that it is very largely genetically determined but can be improved somewhat, perhaps as much as 25%, likely more like 15-20%, but the rest is what you were born with.  

Many of these observations represent a complex interaction of these factors.  Sprinters and marathoners look different for a number of reasons.  Sure, sprinters and marathoners train differently and if they switched to the opposite sport it would change their appearance to some degree.  That's because everyone has a range of muscularity that they can develop and training is going to impact their musculature within the range that their genetics allow.  This range is individual however, so it would take a genetically very unusual person to have the genes to be both a world class sprinter and a world class marathoner.  Suggesting that Eliud Kipchoge would look like Usain Bolt and be able to sprint like him if he would just train for sprints is almost as silly as saying that I'd get to be as tall as Tacko Fall if only I'd put a lot of hours into playing center.


JowGaWolf said:


> Ask that trainer to out perform the climber in using his grip to climb and the climber will win.  There is already video of this online.



Again, a lot of complex interactions.  Rock climbing is very skill dependent.  Just like knowing how to throw someone in martial arts can feel effortless if you know how to do it and feel impossible if you don't, the same goes for a lot of rock climbing.  Also, someone who has the genetic potential to be a pro bodybuilder, while potentially very strong, is also likely going to lack a lot of the other characteristics that make for a good rock climber.  Since rock climbing is heavily skill dependent, sure that potential bodybuilder can probably get pretty good at rock climbing, but he's never going to be world class unless he's extraordinary in some other fashion.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Do they have large hands?


Not generally.  Not big medicine balls, smaller ones.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I know the exact exercise Jow Ga is talking about.  It's not bad as far as a grip strength exercise, it's basically low budget training (you fill two jars with water or sand or rocks and then does farmer carry, basically, using your fingertips to secure the jar).  Takes some practice, and hilarious when someone drops one.  Saw one explode on the ground once.  Very messy.
> 
> but to your point, you'll get it with almost any weight you can wrap your fingers around.  I know badass dudes that can palm medicine balls.
> 
> MY personal go to exercise for tiger claw nowadays is farmer carrying two 40lb Poland Spring jugs around my house.


I use a container like this. I grip the lid then rotate my wrist I use water but I can lift much because of a hollow bone in one of my fingers. Sometimes it swells when it gets weak.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Not generally.  Not big medicine balls, smaller ones.


I'll give that a try the next time I'm in the gym.  I workout with a medicine ball but never thought about trying to palm it. I have small hands so stuff like that is difficult. I see if any of my new exercises have made me stronger in that area.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> There are a lot of complex interactions going on here.  It's true that you can train for particular activities and improve your strength for those activities specific requirements and you will get benefits.  It's also true that your genetics will play a role in how successful you are at adapting yourself to those activities and determine the absolute potential that you might reach at your peak.  Some things are entirely genetically determined, others are largely genetically determined once you're a fully matured adult, some things are partially genetically determined and other things are pretty plastic.
> 
> Top performers in any athletic endeavor tend to look similar because they have the attributes that are most advantageous for that sport.  There are of course outliers who break the mold because they have some other asset in which they a excel that allows them to overcome their deficiencies in other areas.  Many of these characteristics are genetically fixed and can't be altered by anything short of major surgery.  Some of them can be largely developed through training and some are in between.
> 
> ...


I'm only referring the ability to do something.  I don't get into genetics until things turn into "best prefomance" that's when average people get weeded out and genetics becoming increasingly important. Anyone can compete in swimming but there's a natural build and genetics when it comes tobeing among the best.  It is what it is.  At most, many people are going to be good at things. There are very few people that I met who couldn't overcome horrible. But being the best is as you state, lots to do with genetics.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm only referring the ability to do something.


During the

- ancient time, people have to develop certain MA skill first before they can try to polish and enhance it. So when they use equipment training, they already know which MA skill that they want to enhance on.
- modern time, people try to be strong first before they start to develop MA skill.

Most of the discussion are on which method is better.

For example, the following long bag training is trying to develop a strong grip when you hold on your opponent's clothes and drag him around. If the circle dragging is not your strategy, this kind of grip strength may not be important to you.

- In jacket wrestling, you may use your monster grip strength to hold on your opponent so he can't attack you.
- In non-jacket wrestling, you can use your grip strength to pull your opponent's skin and muscle.
- In striking art, this kind of grip strength may not be that useful to you This is why most strikers don't train grip strength.

The long bag training is good for developing grip strength. When the weight is pulling the bag away from you, your grip strength has to fight against that pulling force. This is more dynamic training than just the static training.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

This is what I do for my grip every week:






Call the above Grip1, Grip2







Call these Grip3 and Grip4.


I do these exercise ONE time a week mostly on Monday night when I am watching tv. I do 15reps for each set. The sequence of sets are:

3 X Grip1, 3 X Grip2, 3 X Grip1, 3 X Grip2, 3 X Grip3, 3 X Grip4, 3 X Grip3, 3 X Grip4.  Total of 24 sets for each hand. Then I repeat the whole sequence again. That's it. Takes about 23 minutes.

This is pretty old school, no catching fish, no long bag, no belt cracking, no climbing.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 3, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'll give that a try the next time I'm in the gym.  I workout with a medicine ball but never thought about trying to palm it. I have small hands so stuff like that is difficult. I see if any of my new exercises have made me stronger in that area.


I've got just the thing for you.

These things are 5x5x5 inches.  Awesome for training your hands.  There's a reason the Greeks loved these.





__





						Loading…
					





					www.amazon.com


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## Alan0354 (Oct 3, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is what I do for my grip every week:
> View attachment 29007View attachment 29008
> Call the above Grip1, Grip2
> 
> ...


I said it wrong. *I do NOT repeat the whole sequence*. I was just doing it and I realize that. There is no way to repeat it in 23minutes. Sorry.

I was wondering that's a lot of sets!!!


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 3, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've got just the thing for you.
> 
> These things are 5x5x5 inches.  Awesome for training your hands.  There's a reason the Greeks loved these.
> 
> ...


I forgot all about those things.  I tried to throw one when I was 14.  Back then it was heavy, it should be a good fit now.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - modern time, people try to be strong first before they start to develop MA skill.


In general Most people probably just want to be fit and generally strong.  They may not be building stronger muscles to serve any particular function.  In the gym that I go to, they mostly build muscle to look good and they often pose and check out their muscles in the mirror.  For me and some other guys it's different.  You can tell that we are looking to be functional with the strength building exercises.  I think it's only natural for people to be like that when strength for most people isn't necessary.  Nothing I do in my professional life or daily responsibilities requires that I be physically strong in a way that requires me to spend 5 days out of the week in the gym.  If I didn't do martial arts then I wouldn't have much need for the strength that I'm building now.

I don't have to fetch buckets and containers of water. I don't have to hunt for food or build and maintain my own shelter.  I don't have to walk to work.  Sometimes I barely have to get out of bed to work lol.  If anything thing the U.S. probably needs more physical activity and functional strength lol.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> In general Most people probably just want to be fit and generally strong.  They may not be building stronger muscles to serve any particular function.  In the gym that I go to, they mostly build muscle to look good and they often pose and check out their muscles in the mirror.  For me and some other guys it's different.  You can tell that we are looking to be functional with the strength building exercises.  I think it's only natural for people to be like that when strength for most people isn't necessary.  Nothing I do in my professional life or daily responsibilities requires that I be physically strong in a way that requires me to spend 5 days out of the week in the gym.  If I didn't do martial arts then I wouldn't have much need for the strength that I'm building now.
> 
> I don't have to fetch buckets and containers of water. I don't have to hunt for food or build and maintain my own shelter.  I don't have to walk to work.  Sometimes I barely have to get out of bed to work lol.  If anything thing the U.S. probably needs more physical activity and functional strength lol.


I'm curious, what do you think makes someone functionally strong and how does that differ from being "generally strong"?  What gives you insight into whether these other guys are developing functional strength or not?  Are they not doing full body workouts?  Just doing bicep curl until they've got a pump so they can look good for their Instagram post?  

In my experience, functional strength = strong muscles + skill.  It may be enhanced or diminished by those genetic aspects we were discussing earlier, so for instance, a guy with small hands may not have the functional grip strength of a guy with similar muscular development and larger hands that give him better leverage, but that's the sort of thing that's outside of our control. 

For me, the gym is where I get the strong muscles part, MA class is where I add the skill development to manifest truly functional strength for MA.  If I were to get into Scottish Highland Games, or strongman competitions, then I'd develop the skills that made my strength functional for those activities by learning how to do the Caber toss, or whatever, and then practicing, but I'd still do most of my muscular development in the gym.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 4, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I'm curious, what do you think makes someone functionally strong and how does that differ from being "generally strong"?  What gives you insight into whether these other guys are developing functional strength or not?  Are they not doing full body workouts?  Just doing bicep curl until they've got a pump so they can look good for their Instagram post?
> 
> In my experience, functional strength = strong muscles + skill.  It may be enhanced or diminished by those genetic aspects we were discussing earlier, so for instance, a guy with small hands may not have the functional grip strength of a guy with similar muscular development and larger hands that give him better leverage, but that's the sort of thing that's outside of our control.
> 
> For me, the gym is where I get the strong muscles part, MA class is where I add the skill development to manifest truly functional strength for MA.  If I were to get into Scottish Highland Games, or strongman competitions, then I'd develop the skills that made my strength functional for those activities by learning how to do the Caber toss, or whatever, and then practicing, but I'd still do most of my muscular development in the gym.


Most moves on MA involve more than just one muscle, it's the whole group together. Like stick fight, yes grip strength is important............To the extend to hold onto the stick and strong enough wrist to keep up with the rest of the body. The power of the swing is from legs, waist and shoulder and even elbow. It's a whole body event. Grip is just part of it to the extend that don't be the weakest part of the link.

That doesn't require the endurance of climbing the rock. People have to put things into perspective.

I have to repeat this over and over. The fastest and easiest way to go from A to B is the straight line from A to B. Some like to take a little scenic route. Some enjoy the scenic so much they lost their way. Know where one wants to go, don't take the eye off the price.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

Who remembers this great British athlete. He was all round. Sprints, Pole vault, hurdles & distance running.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The power of the swing is from legs, waist and shoulder and even elbow. It's a whole body event. Grip is just part of it to the extend that don't be the weakest part of the link.


watch how Emin strikes & talks about this...Pfoom..pfoom...

watch @ 8:40  how his body is behind it...power...


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This is pretty old school, no catching fish, no long bag, no belt cracking, no climbing.


have you ever used these "captains of crush" grippers?   my favourite exercise is simply EZ bar reverse curls. I also do them on a preacher bench, sometimes standing.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

A vers simple routine i used in WT training was this .. 

Close grip bench press (best with a parallel grip triceps bar)
Barbell squats 
Incline sit ups.

was no lat work. They believed that it was negative to train lats & biceps, will compromise the power punching.  Of course i don´t agree but it was the thinking then. The routine was good for close chain punches (WT), stable base, legs & midsection.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

Now using the above workout I got stronger and faster with weights. Below is a book I bought years ago..it's nothing more than Isometrics & Isotonics. Nothing more.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I'm curious, what do you think makes someone functionally strong and how does that differ from being "generally strong"? What gives you insight into whether these other guys are developing functional strength or not? Are they not doing full body workouts? Just doing bicep curl until they've got a pump so they can look good for their Instagram post?


I talk to some of them. Some of them just sit around and chat with friends, others just sit and text on their phones. There are a some older guys and women who work out for health reasons and just trying to stay in shape.  They aren't training for any specific sport or activity.  Just trying to stay healthy.  The younger guys and women care more about their looks. They end up posing and I can over hear their conversations about what they are trying to accomplish.  Then you have people who go to the bag room who hit the bag. Most of the people who come into that room usually do stretches or train fighting skills.  

I don't know about the morning crowd or the afternoon crowd because I train at night.  Most of the people I see don't do full body workouts. Some only focus on cardio and will never touch the weights.  Some will do the weights and never touch the cardio.  There's a lady with a genetic defect there as well.  My wife and I often help her to and from the door when she asks for help. I haven't seen her in a while now.  I go to the gym 5 days a week unless injured and I've been doing this since January, so eventually I interact or watch people workout trying to see if there's an exercise that they do that I may want to adopt.  Sometimes they adopt what I do, sometimes they don't.  There's one guy that works out and he's always doing a live feed so I guess he's doing some youtube videos.  He keeps to his self for the most part and everyone give him his space and tries not to get in the video shot.

Insight about others is easy. In the gym people gain it by. asking someone who knows. ask the person directly, or just watch what other people do. It's sort of like feeling someone out to see if they will make a good sparring partner before actually asking them to spar.  What I state here is similar to how it was in the college gym more than 20 years ago.

Functionally strong to me is strength built for a specific purpose. For example,  If I want to be able to bend down and pick up things better and not feel old when I do it, then my workout is designed to achieve that goal.  If I want to be generally strong then my workout may or may not address that issue.  Say. I may workout on my chest back arms, do some cardio, but not do anything that requires me to bend my knees and stoop down.  I may not do static holds to help build up my tendons in my knees.

When I stay "functionally strong", I'm talking about the purpose and goal that a person has when trying to be strong.  I typically ask what function are they trying to improve. 

When I say "generally strong.,"  I'm talking about how there may not be any focus of function.  Some people just want to be strong. or look strong.  They aren't lifting weights to improve a function or to focus on one.  Nice muscles and nice body is attractive to men and women.  I used to walk and do bicep curls with weights.  I wasn't do this to be functionally strong.  I just wanted to do an exercise to help manage my blood pressure and give the arms a decent workout in the process.  I wasn't trying to improve a function of strength. I was just trying to improve my health. 

There used to be a guy who was doing some kind of social media post because he was always asking someone to hold his phone and take video of him as he stand holding a dumbbell.  That guy was strange. He made a lot of people uncomfortable.  He kind of just went up to people and started conversations with them as if we were already talking about what was going on in his mind.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> The fastest and easiest way to go from A to B is the straight line from A to B.


This may be true but it may not always be the best way.    Sometimes those side trips along the way help improve what you are trying to accomplish.  There may be some understanding or extra information that helps your development.  Sometimes getting to Point B doesn't need to be fast nor easy.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 4, 2022)

This has turned into a great thread ..i am enjoying it immensly


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I forgot all about those things.  I tried to throw one when I was 14.  Back then it was heavy, it should be a good fit now.


There's a technique to it, technically you're not supposed to try throwing the shot with your arm, but with your body.  Hence "putting", why the shot is placed on the neck, etc. 

Honestly dude, this is one of my favorite sports and these guys have to train like beasts.  But it's a lot of fun too.

People talk about "energy" and "kinetic chains" in the MA, but this really sums it up nicely.  Wow, to be that big AND spin like a ballerina.

Just ordered myself a new set.  If you actually put with them they can get a little gross over time.  I prefer the cast iron ones, better grip IMHO.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Just ordered myself a new set. If you actually put with them they can get a little gross over time. I prefer the cast iron ones, better grip IMHO.


I was checking these out last night.  I'll plan to order one in the next couple of days, may be two so I can have one of a different weight.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 4, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> watch how Emin strikes & talks about this...Pfoom..pfoom...
> 
> watch @ 8:40  how his body is behind it...power...


This video talk a lot about my issue with fighting against knife and all that. I am practicing knife, People here and a lot of video talked about grappling with knives, I thought it's crazy with all the fancy moves like at the beginning of the video. There's even a thread here on knife forum that said *IF you are good, you won't get cut fighting against people with knife*!!!

What kind of dream is that. That's what I am so tired of people talking when they are sitting on their comfy chair. Then talk about all the grappling against knife. I like the guy in the video say DO NOT grapple with knife at the very beginning, you'll get cut!!!! Push it away from body!!!

Then at the part he talked about stick that you don't commit and swing all the way. A lot of the stick fight just swing wild like what he said not to. Actually I move to swinging with two hands. I put a lot of effort to pull back the stick after hitting exactly like what he showed. Don't swing it all the way like swinging a baseball bet. Recovery is slow if you swing all the way.

You really have to stop and think before blindly learn in MA. There are too many stupid things mixed into those styles, do NOT trust blindly, have to think and question.

Don't think it's funny I kept talking about catching with hands, you see a few videos here that is NOT far off from that. AND that's NOT FUNNY.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This may be true but it may not always be the best way.    Sometimes those side trips along the way help improve what you are trying to accomplish.  There may be some understanding or extra information that helps your development.  Sometimes getting to Point B doesn't need to be fast nor easy.


Maybe that's why MMA rules while others still enjoying the scenic. It's been almost 30 years since MMA destroy all the other TMA already. Sadly I am still waiting for the comeback.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 4, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I'm curious, what do you think makes someone functionally strong and how does that differ from being "generally strong"?


If you can do this, you are functionally strong. In other words, your legs, waist, spine, arms can all function together. There exist no weak parts.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 4, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> For me, the gym is where I get the strong muscles part, MA class is where I add the skill development to manifest truly functional strength for MA.


You must be a striker. Most strikers take your approach. A wrestler may take different approach. 

For example, to twist your opponent down to the ground is an important wrestling skill. 






Since there exist no machine in the modern gym that can help you to enhance the double arms twisting. You use "self-designed training equipment" at home to enhance that skill.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 4, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm only referring the ability to do something. I don't get into genetics until things turn into "best prefomance" that's when average people get weeded out and genetics becoming increasingly important. Anyone can compete in swimming but there's a natural build and genetics when it comes tobeing among the best. It is what it is. At most, many people are going to be good at things. There are very few people that I met who couldn't overcome horrible. But being the best is as you state, lots to do with genetics.


Sorry, I missed this post earlier.  I wasn't ignoring your response!

I feel that you aren't just talking about "best performance", you're also talking about appearance too and using it for a metric for how well someone is training, without considering the large role that genetics play in how people look and how their bodies respond to stimulus. You also seem to be ignoring the fact that genetics play a significant role in aptitude and that aptitude impacts participation at most every level and participation shapes what we think a participant in a particular sport should look like. 

People who have bodies that are ill suited to an activity tend self select out of those activities and gravitate towards activities to which their physique is more suited.  I'm talking populations here, not individuals, there are plenty of short people who love and play basketball and skinny, more fragile, people who play football, but they tend to be the exceptions. 

For example, I have really short legs and a really tall torso.  I _*hate*_ long distance running.  It is just about the most miserable activity that I can imagine.  My short legs have to carry my big, heavy, upper body around and I have to take like 3 strides for every 2 of other guys my height. Sprinting I've always enjoyed, because even as a little kid I've always carried a lot of muscle on my legs and I could run short distances faster than my classmates.  So, I did track and field in school, but I was never any good at any distance longer than 100 meters.  I could accelerate quickly but there was a low limit on my top speed, like pedaling along on a bike in first gear.

Even at 100 meters, my short legs limited my abilities.  I was the fastest boy in my elementary school, but I was middle of the pack among the much larger pool of competition in high school even though I put in as much or more effort than the average while getting the same coaching.  I wouldn't call high school "best performance" or "world class", but my genetics definitely meant that I wasn't going to be taking first in the 100 meter at my high school, much less at the intramural or state level.  And while short, my legs aren't freakishly short.  People don't stare at them or make comments.  They're just shorter than average enough to place an upper limit on my performance.

It's a chicken and the egg thing.  Do sprinters, as a population, look like sprinters because they sprint, or do they sprint because they look like sprinters?  I sprinted because I looked like a sprinter.  Of course the more I sprinted, the more I looked like a sprinter, and my legs probably would have atrophied somewhat if I'd switched to running marathons, but I'd still have looked like a sprinter (with short, muscular, legs) trying to run a marathon.  Can you find guys built like me running marathons who train exclusively and effectively for marathons?  Sure, and some of them are pretty good, but not a lot of them are coming in first, even at small, local events.

Was it a waste of time to compete in the 100m dash, since I wasn't going to be successful in anything but the lowest level of competition?  I guess it depends on your values.  I had fun with it, and having trained in sprinting, though slow in comparison to a lot of other sprinters, I was still much faster than people who didn't have any training.  Having grown up in a very violent time and place, this skill saved me from serious injury a couple of times too, so it did have some practical value as well.


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## MetalBoar (Oct 4, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can do this, you are functionally strong. In other words, your legs, waist, spine, arms can all function together. There exist no weak parts.





Kung Fu Wang said:


> You must be a striker. Most strikers take your approach. A wrestler may take different approach.
> For example, to twist your opponent down to the ground is an important wrestling skill.
> 
> 
> ...


I've done both striking and grappling, though you're probably right that I may be more of a striker than a wrestler.

I agree that we approach things from a different perspective.  I believe that you are a skilled wrestler and a good instructor.  If I were your student I would absolutely do the drills in your links and I may try them on my own.  I'm sure you're right that they are good for developing body unification and twisting skills that are valuable in wrestling.  I expect I would also continue to lift weights, because I see these drills as skill development techniques that have the side effect of improving strength.  

I'm sure these drills improve strength on their own, but I also think they're less efficient, and may have a lower ceiling for strength development, than the kind of weight lifting I do.  Now we can debate efficiency, and it would take a study to determine whether or not it was overall more efficient to break the strength and skill components apart or train them together, but from my research on motor learning I believe that it's more efficient to break them apart.

That's why I don't go to the gym to improve my MA skills.  I'm only interested in getting stronger muscles in the gym and, in my experience, weight lifting does the best job of that.  I may not be able to develop those skills in the gym lifting weights, but I can definitely strengthen every muscle involved in those movements.  Stronger muscles only make learning the skills in those drills easier.  Once I had the strength, and those skills, I'd have the same functional strength as someone who developed it using those drills alone, and I think I'd be able to do it faster and equally well that way.  

If I were retired or could get paid, and we had a budget for it, I'd love to conduct a study with you to see which way was better!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 4, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> watch how Emin strikes & talks about this...Pfoom..pfoom...
> 
> watch @ 8:40  how his body is behind it...power...


It's all about elbow control.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Maybe that's why MMA rules while others still enjoying the scenic. It's been almost 30 years since MMA destroy all the other TMA already. Sadly I am still waiting for the comeback.


About 30 years since UFC1 sure, but if anything I think MMA just showcased which TMA training methods worked and which didn't, in real application.  Because BJJ is based on practical jujutsu, it stuck around.  So did ancient southeast Asian full contact arts like Muay Boran's less lethal cousin Muay Thai,  Lethwei, Sanshou.  I even saw a French TMA kickboxer knock a Sumo wrestler's tooth out.

There is plenty of Filipino TMA represented in the UFC overall.  NO doubt!  But especially the first dozen.

MMA didn't really exist in 1993, when the term was coined.  It was more of an idea, based on TMA full contact styles from several different early civs (Greek, Chinese, Egyptian).  Nowadays, MMA can be anything (some MMArtists learn dozens of styles), but it's really just returning to its roots.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> About 30 years since UFC1 sure, but if anything I think MMA just showcased which TMA training methods worked and which didn't, in real application.  Because BJJ is based on practical jujutsu, it stuck around.  So did ancient southeast Asian full contact arts like Muay Boran's less lethal cousin Muay Thai,  Lethwei, Sanshou.  I even saw a French TMA kickboxer knock a Sumo wrestler's tooth out.
> 
> There is plenty of Filipino TMA represented in the UFC overall.  NO doubt!  But especially the first dozen.
> 
> MMA didn't really exist in 1993, when the term was coined.  It was more of an idea, based on TMA full contact styles from several different early civs (Greek, Chinese, Egyptian).  Nowadays, MMA can be anything (some MMArtists learn dozens of styles), but it's really just returning to its roots.


Point is MMA pick all the useful part for a lot of TMA.....AND eliminate all the useless, show-off stuffs, and put them together to form a practical, no nonsense fighting style.

Like BJJ ground game, it's effective, but there's nothing nice looking about it. Muy Thai is very effective striking style, but it's nothing pretty about it. They literally eliminate all the fancy moves and straight to the point. This is what I referred to the quickest way to go from A to B is a straight line, one doesn't spend a second on any extra move to "beautify" the move.

Even though MMA use a lot of TKD kicks, but Muy Thai kicks are just as effective without the high knee, strong pivot that make the kick pretty. Boxing punch are direct straight line(well there are hooks!!!), not like those CMA swinging the whole arm, going in round motion and all that.

Funny part is when I was I kid, I remember we had the yearly MA competition of Asia on tv that different style fight each other. I was really young before I learn anything. I watched the fights on tv, my first question was " WHY THEIR FIGHT ALL LOOKS THE SAME!!!" They all looked like street brawling, just swinging wild. Where are all the fancy moves they practice? The monkey style, prey mantis, tiger, wing chung. Just dog fight, wild swinging. My immediate question was, if they fight like this, why WASTING time to practice all the "SCENIC" moves?

I would imagine after the TMA got destroyed in the first few UFC, they should really start to look inward and be humble and learn. I guess not. It was so pitiful. *Gracie disappeared, the Wrestlers took over* in the mid 90s. TMA did NOT fair any better. *Wrestler still kicked their butts.* I started to wonder which one doesn't kick TMA's butts. Don't forget the Russia Sambo(I am not sure).

Oh Yeh, The more I look into Filipino MA, the more I am impressed by it. You will NEVER hear any comment about FMA and Muy Thai in the CMA circle. I am learning the knife fight in FMA video. I looked at a lot of stick fight videos, FMA definitely the best.

It might be a joke about catching fish bare handed in the river, but the more I see, it's not as funny as I thought!!! It start to be quite sad.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Point is MMA pick all the useful part for a lot of TMA.....AND eliminate all the useless, show-off stuffs, and put them together to form a practical, no nonsense fighting style.
> 
> Like BJJ ground game, it's effective, but there's nothing nice looking about it. Muy Thai is very effective striking style, but it's nothing pretty about it. They literally eliminate all the fancy moves and straight to the point. This is what I referred to the quickest way to go from A to B is a straight line, one doesn't spend a second on any extra move to "beautify" the move.
> 
> ...


You know what defeats MMA?
角抵.​


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## Alan0354 (Oct 4, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> You know what defeats MMA?
> 角抵.​


Ha ha, do NOT test my Chinese, not good!!!! What's that mean?

I gave it all back to my teachers already. I don't even think I can survive in Hong Kong now that they change the writing. I have a hard time even reading the road sign last time I went back.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 4, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Ha ha, do NOT test my Chinese, not good!!!! What's that mean?
> 
> I gave it all back to my teachers already. I don't even think I can survive in Hong Kong now that they change the writing. I have a hard time even reading the road sign last time I went back.


sorry.

Ancient Chinese pitfighting with horns.

MMA with Helm +2, basically.


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## Alan0354 (Oct 5, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> sorry.
> 
> Ancient Chinese pitfighting with horns.
> 
> MMA with Helm +2, basically.


I don't know anything about that. You Chinese?


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> you're also talking about appearance too and using it for a metric for how well someone is training, without considering the large role that genetics play in how people look and how their bodies respond to stimulus.


I don't use it as a metric, but other people do.  There's an entire industry built off that very same metric that goes by appearance. 



MetalBoar said:


> I'm talking populations here, not individuals, there are plenty of short people who love and play basketball and skinny, more fragile, people who play football, but they tend to be the exceptions.


They aren't the exceptions.  There's a difference between being able to do those things and being able to do those things on a professional level.  That's when ignore genetics. Go to any basketball court in the park or in a recreation gym and you'll find short people playing basket ball.  As much as I used to play basketball there was always someone short on the court.  That may be different when it comes to professional basketball, but people can have basketball skills without being a professional.  

If this guy can play basketball then there's no one else has an excuse to say that genetics is why they can't play.  They may not be a professional player, but being a professional is not a requirement for being able to play basketball.  







MetalBoar said:


> For example, I have really short legs and a really tall torso. I _*hate*_ long distance running. It is just about the most miserable activity that I can imagine. My short legs have to carry my big, heavy, upper body around and I have to take like 3 strides for every 2 of other guys my height. Sprinting I've always enjoyed, because even as a little kid I've always carried a lot of muscle on my legs and I could run short distances faster than my classmates. So, I did track and field in school, but I was never any good at any distance longer than 100 meters. I could accelerate quickly but there was a low limit on my top speed, like pedaling along on a bike in first gear.
> 
> Even at 100 meters, my short legs limited my abilities. I was the fastest boy in my elementary school, but I was middle of the pack among the much larger pool of competition in high school even though I put in as much or more effort than the average while getting the same coaching. I wouldn't call high school "best performance" or "world class", but my genetics definitely meant that I wasn't going to be taking first in the 100 meter at my high school, much less at the intramural or state level. And while short, my legs aren't freakishly short. People don't stare at them or make comments. They're just shorter than average enough to place an upper limit on my performance.


You are focused too much on trying to be the best instead of just doing your best.  I'm a sprinter and I rand 5ks and 10ks.  I wasn't a natural at that and I had to put in a lot of training for that.  Where some runners at my school had more than 10 years of experience with running distance, my entire Cross country and distance running was only 3 years.  Year 1 was my first time ever.  I'm short 5'9.  There were girls out there who were shorter than me running. There were some guys out there who were also shorter than me and they beat me on the regular.  Through that entire time I didn't care about being the best.  I just focused on me being my best.  My only competition was the clock.  My only goal was to run faster than I did in the previous race.   Genetics doesn't matter because I'm racing myself.  So the only person I have to beat is myself.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you can do this, you are functionally strong. In other words, your legs, waist, spine, arms can all function together. There exist no weak parts.


I hope the guy has a good orthopedic surgeon near by. I noticed on YouTube the comments are turned off for that particular Video.
I wonder why 😶


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> This video talk a lot about my issue with fighting against knife and all that. I am practicing knife, People here and a lot of video talked about grappling with knives, I thought it's crazy with all the fancy moves like at the beginning of the video. There's even a thread here on knife forum that said *IF you are good, you won't get cut fighting against people with knife*!!!
> 
> What kind of dream is that. That's what I am so tired of people talking when they are sitting on their comfy chair. Then talk about all the grappling against knife. I like the guy in the video say DO NOT grapple with knife at the very beginning, you'll get cut!!!! Push it away from body!!!
> 
> ...


Yes exactly he's showing what traditional style tend to show in their self defense. His demonstration shows clearly the reality of a cutting edge..fast , change of an angle...you're cut. With a stick or something you've a chance but like he said...run if you can but if cornered then you've no choice but to fight. 
But yeah I laugh at some peoples ideas on knife defence


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## Alan0354 (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yes exactly he's showing what traditional style tend to show in their self defense. His demonstration shows clearly the reality of a cutting edge..fast , change of an angle...you're cut. With a stick or something you've a chance but like he said...run if you can but if cornered then you've no choice but to fight.
> But yeah I laugh at some peoples ideas on knife defence


That's why I kept talking about people need to think, don't trust blindly. But I often being told I don't know enough, that I need to learn a lot more before I can understand.

This is similar to punching and kicking defense. You see those TMA have their hands down. When people attack, they start to do all sort of fancy blocking, fancy footwork and all. I believe nothing is as practical as just KEEP YOUR HANDS UP CLOSE TO THE FACE. Don't assume you are so good you can react and block, move to the side and counter. If not for anything, the hands can serve as cushion to cushion the punch or kick to the face!!! It's biological for people to take a split second to react to punching. Unless one is as fast as Bruce Lee, don't count on reacting fast enough to block the punch or kick by doing fancy movement.

Just like knife defense. It is so stupid to try to grab and twist the knife holding hand and all that.

same as stick fight also. You watch those videos, they can get fancy how to do grappling with the stick. I just don't understand why people just immediately go into fancy moves on everything. That's why after a few months following FMA single hand stick fight, I change to two hands. I spend a lot of time doing what your video show around 8:30, hit with whole body movement, and then PULL BACK the stick very fast because I can do it with both hands to prevent over swing. I even practice hit, then pull back the same path, and hit with the same strike to the same spot again. I bet the opponent would not be prepare for me to hit back the same spot, thinking that I do it like everyone else to hit from the other direction. I can hit just as fast to the head from the right, then hit the leg from the right again. All because I pull back just as hard as I strike.

I believe in thinking and make judgement. Who is to say my idea is inferior than other's. So far, I've seen too many stupid things in the TMA already. They ain't that wise after hundreds of years, or else, they won't be beaten so bad now a days and still refuse to learn.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I just don't understand why people just immediately go into fancy moves on everything. That's why after a few months following FMA single hand stick fight, I change to two hands.


I actually prefer just one stick. I'm not a fan either of the fancy stuff. Not because I can't do it but it's a waste of time in a real fight. Sure it looks impressive in a video but I like to just hit the guy as directly & efficiently as possible. No messing around. PFOOM PFOOM......🙂


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## Alan0354 (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I actually prefer just one stick. I'm not a fan either of the fancy stuff. Not because I can't do it but it's a waste of time in a real fight. Sure it looks impressive in a video but I like to just hit the guy as directly & efficiently as possible. No messing around. PFOOM PFOOM......🙂


I meant swinging ONE stick with two hands, like holding a katana. I changed to two hands after I saw a video on escrima competition where the two guys wacked each other stupid for the whole duration, they were both standing after the fight. Yes, they wore some protection gear, but full power wacking, they did not even attempt to block, just wacking each other stupid.

I change to two hands holding the cane since that day. I use a 20oz cane instead of those 10oz rattan canes for single hand swing.

Also, the more important thing is with two hands, I have so much more control, like pulling back quick. I can swing more compact that can be used in confined space. Those stick fight MA seems to only thinking of competition where you have flat open space. In real life, you don't have that. Say in the restaurant, you have people, tables and chairs in the way. You swing wild, you hit everything else before hitting the opponent. You might lose the stick hitting unexpecting things along the way. Two hands holding the cane solve most of the problems.

Other than Filipino Tapado, I have not seen anyone holding with two hands. But I don't like Tapado because they use a longer stick. Also, I fail to see why they kept hitting the ground to stop the swing!!! Why? With two hands, I can stop the cane in mid air if the cane is like normal cane length.

Since no style comes even close to how I want to do it. I just practice on my own on heavy bag and air. I concentrate in hitting fast, hitting HARD. Forget all the fancy stuffs. I concentrate on hitting the knee where it's hard for the opponent to reach down to grab the stick. 20oz stick swing full force on the knee. I think the stick will win.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I meant swinging ONE stick with two hands, like holding a katana. I changed to two hands after I saw a video on escrima competition where the two guys wacked each other stupid for the whole duration, they were both standing after the fight. Yes, they wore some protection gear, but full power wacking, they did not even attempt to block, just wacking each other stupid.
> 
> I change to two hands holding the cane since that day. I use a 20oz cane instead of those 10oz rattan canes for single hand swing.
> 
> ...


I think that given the competition between schools they're trying to stay ahead of each other with different fancy looking moves. From what I've seen the schools who teach more Single stick are, in my opinion better...or better for me. Competition is never like really fighting but I get your opinion on it.  
PFOOM..PFOOM !


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

This guy is correct about losing muscle as we age & someone on the thread mentioned bone density. I think he needs to watch his diet though, looks overweight.




One Form of weight training I've found very useful,  & as you'll see this isn't new is a system Bob Gadja used.








						Bob Gajda's Peripheral Heart Action (PHA) Training - Physical Culture Study
					

One point that always fascinates me about training is the sheer diversity one finds when it comes to training systems, exercises and training philosophies. What works for one trainee can




					physicalculturestudy.com


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)




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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Wow ...this interview is Gold..I never knew about his interest in martial arts. 
PFOOM...PHOOM


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## Alan0354 (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> This guy is correct about losing muscle as we age & someone on the thread mentioned bone density. I think he needs to watch his diet though, looks overweight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It is similar to what I do.

The guy is OUT OF SHAPE!!! I do more weights than him and I am smaller and almost 70!!!

I started losing muscle about 65.

In my gym before, we have guys older than him pushing over double he's doing. 3 years ago, I was doing 75lbs dumbbell flat bench press 3 sets of 10. I was a little weakly amount people in the gym.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> It is similar to what I do.
> 
> The guy is OUT OF SHAPE!!! I do more weights than him and I am smaller and almost 70!!!
> 
> I started losing muscle about 65.


Yes he is Alan, was just trying not to be too hard. He could be a member here 🙂


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## MetalBoar (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't use it as a metric, but other people do.  There's an entire industry built off that very same metric that goes by appearance.
> 
> 
> They aren't the exceptions.  There's a difference between being able to do those things and being able to do those things on a professional level.  That's when ignore genetics. Go to any basketball court in the park or in a recreation gym and you'll find short people playing basket ball.  As much as I used to play basketball there was always someone short on the court.  That may be different when it comes to professional basketball, but people can have basketball skills without being a professional.
> ...


So, I really think you're still missing my point.  When I say that you're using appearance as a metric I don't mean that you're evaluating peoples' results by how sexy they get, I mean you seem to be observing how people who are good at an activity look and saying that doing the activity is the main reason they look that way and that looking that way means they're training optimally.  I'm saying that people who are good enough to be used to exemplify a particular sport are usually people who have some level of genetic aptitude for that sport and so saying that the sport made them look that way is far from the whole picture and that training like them may not get you the results you expect if you don't have similar genes.  

For example, in my opinion, the rock climbers in your pictures have extremely visible tendons in part because they rock climb, but in part because they have the genetics that make them good rock climbers who can easily develop extreme grip strength and have naturally wiry builds.  I knew a lot of rock climbers in Seattle and none of them had physiques like the rock climbers in your pictures.  They were perfectly competent to quite skilled rock climbers, but they weren't good enough that anyone was bothering to take pictures of their forearms.  When people think of rock climbers they think of people with builds and forearms like your pictures, but I don't think that represents anything like the average rock climber.  There are a lot of people who lift weights wanting to look like Mr. Olympia, but if you google bodybuilder you won't see pictures of the average bodybuilder. 

Nowhere did I say that genes prevented people from participating in whatever sport they choose (barring very extreme genetic conditions) but they do impact how easy people find it to learn and improve at sports and it does put some limit their absolute potential.  Most people gravitate to things they're good at, a lot of people give up on things they struggle with.  I'm not judging here, I'm making an observation.  It's something that's a well known problem in designing and completing a lot of exercise studies.  When you have your test group who is going to perform the exercise that's being studied and a control group that's not supposed to exercise, it's really hard to keep people who want to exercise from doing so or dropping out, and vice versa.   

You've made statements that seem to indicate that you think that regardless of genetics, basically everyone would have forearms and hand tendons that looked like those of the rock climbers in your posts, if they were to just train like a rock climber.  I'm saying that a lot of people would not and don't.  You've implied in this thread and I believe you've stated more directly in other threads (I may be misremembering) that if someone lifts weights like a bodybuilder they'll look like an iconic bodybuilder.  I'm saying that a lot of people would not and don't.  The same goes for pretty much every other athletic endeavor.  

I'm also not saying that people should avoid things they don't have a genetic aptitude for or that something is only worth doing if you can be great.  I am saying that looking at a power lifter and believing they'd look like an iconic rock climber with super visible tendons if they just spent a lot of time rock climbing and training like a rock climber, or that a marathoner would develop the huge thighs of a iconic sprinter if they just spent a lot of time training to sprint, misses the actual results of the majority of people and can lead to false assumptions about how to most effectively achieve the results you want. 

This is my real point.  Believing that doing the things that the genetically gifted do will lead to the same results if you aren't genetically gifted in the same way is a mistake.  A lot of bodybuilders can train successfully in ways that are counterproductive if you don't have their genes and/or their chemical regimen, but a lot of people try to emulate them and get very poor results that could be improved dramatically by following a more suitable protocol.  Believing that because rock climbers that are good enough to have photos taken of their hands and forearms all have amazing hand and forearm development means that it's the best way or even a great way to develop hands and forearms for an average person is a mistake.  It may be accurate and it may not, but there's a lot of assumption and selection bias going into that conclusion.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

not sure if i would do this myself but Bob Gadja can explain why (seeing as grip & fingers seems to be a topic here)






PFOOM PFOOM.....


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I hope the guy has a good orthopedic surgeon near by. I noticed on YouTube the comments are turned off for that particular Video.
> I wonder why 😶


Probably because there are people out there who would make fun of him.  Sometimes it's just best to leave that the comments off  If we use this forum as an example, things can get pretty rough in the comment arena.  As bad as it get here, it's probably worse on youtube.  I used to share my videos on youtube so that anyone can see them.  But now I keep all of my videos unlisted.  I still leave the comments on in case someone has a question, but no one ever does. lol


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> As bad as it get here,


it´s not bad on here.. but some videos on youtube are just absurd. sorry but some should even be banned as some gullible people might try the stupid training & end up in a spinal clinic with an injury which could plague them for life.
But don´t get me wrong, i´ve seen some utter muppets in the Gym too!!


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> not sure if i would do this myself but Bob Gadja can explain why (seeing as grip & fingers seems to be a topic here)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting.  There's a traditional martial arts exercise where all you to is open and close your hand similar to this but you have to open your hand all the way up to where the fingers are straight.  I still do them from time to time in between weight lifting sets.  Not because I know a few thing but I simply just don't like the idea of just sitting there.  When I workout with my son I have 1 minute breaks.  When I workout by myself my breaks are 15 seconds.






It seems like a stupid exercise but it's a forearm killer.  So the way I learned this drill is that the hands have to open completely and then close but not gripping.  The moment you feel your finger tips touch your palm is the moment you quickly open your hand.  The goal is that you go as fast as you can for 30 seconds.   I've never done them as it's sBranchown in the video.  I've always had my arms at a 35 degree angle and pulled my hand back so that my palms are facing forward.   When I saw students do it like this guy is doing it, I would correct them.  

maybe 10 years ago I watched a video about a climber from India who was said to learn how to climb from monkeys.  The scientist learned that his finger strength and development were off the charts.  They determined that it was the finger strength that allowed him to have such a good grip.   The open and closing of the hand in the video makes sense as well.  If I want to have strong muscles in my hand then I would want to workout the full range of those muscles.  Similar to how we work biceps, Full extension and full contraction.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Interesting.  There's a traditional martial arts exercise where all you to is open and close your hand similar to this but you have to open your hand all the way up to where the fingers are straight.  I still do them from time to time in between weight lifting sets.  Not because I know a few thing but I simply just don't like the idea of just sitting there.  When I workout with my son I have 1 minute breaks.  When I workout by myself my breaks are 15 seconds.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



try doing this letting the bar roll down your fingers. you´ll feel it.






he was actually curling the bar up high here but still a great workout for the forearms & hands. Most don´t do these though very old school.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> it´s not bad on here.. but some videos on youtube are just absurd. sorry but some should even be banned as some gullible people might try the stupid training & end up in a spinal clinic with an injury which could plague them for life.
> But don´t get me wrong, i´ve seen some utter muppets in the Gym too!!


I agree with you on that.  As bad as we think some of the martial arts videos are. There's stuff that's 100 times worst like a youtuber giving hair advice where the advice was to use gorilla glue.  Lets just say that the advice required some medical attention in the form of surgery.  The only good thing is that her error was live and she showed the surgery.  The bad thing is that this wasn't her only big mistake.  Gorilla Glue isn't sold as an hair product so I'm not sure why someone would make that connection.  

But you are right there's some crazy stuff out there.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> try doing this letting the bar roll down your fingers. you´ll feel it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like this exercise as well. You definitely feel it.  Unfortunately I'm not able to do this exercise anymore.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I like this exercise as well. You definitely feel it.  Unfortunately I'm not able to do this exercise anymore.


I haven´t done it for a long time as i wrote on one post i just do reverse curls. I use an EZ bar.  i can honestly say that stick work has helped my grip strength too.."feeling the stick".   definetly helped my wrist flexability. It´s like look at the forearms of a guy who in the olden days worked in a Garage.  most had decent forearms & grip from just using tools all day ..twisting etc.  I remember as a young lad doing scaffolding work for a while. some of these guys could climb like a monkey & had great strength.  was hard work.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


>


I never heard of this guy until today..  I learned something new


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I never heard of this guy until today..  I learned something new


Yeah back in the day he was Mr America. A clever maybe a bit radical man. was apparantly a Black belt in Judo. Teaching military personnel during his service. I never knew that myself until watching a video today...so i learned something too.  he sadly passed away i think this year in 2022.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I haven´t done it for a long time as i wrote on one post i just do reverse curls. I use an EZ bar.  i can honestly say that stick work has helped my grip strength too.."feeling the stick".   definetly helped my wrist flexability. It´s like look at the forearms of a guy who in the olden days worked in a Garage.  most had decent forearms & grip from just using tools all day ..twisting etc.  I remember as a young lad doing scaffolding work for a while. some of these guys could climb like a monkey & had great strength.  was hard work.


I'm like you.  I do the reverse curls, but I use the dumbbells. I try to get what I can when I can.  I'll up my training once I lose weight. lol.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I'm like you.  I do the reverse curls, but I use the dumbbells. I try to get what I can when I can.  I'll up my training once I lose weight. lol.


Yeah most do Hammer curls but do you know Zottman curls ? old school again, most young dudes have never heard of this.











the secound video was another old timer, Vince gironda


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah most do Hammer curls but do you know Zottman curls ? old school again, most young dudes have never heard of this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The movement looks like one of the martial arts moves for redirecting punches.  I haven't done this before.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> The movement looks like one of the martial arts moves for redirecting punches.  I haven't done this before.


try it but start of very light so you learn the movement properly


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

I never knew this... that they did this in Japan too.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> This guy is correct about losing muscle as we age & someone on the thread mentioned bone density. I think he needs to watch his diet though, looks overweight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeah diet and weight would be the biggest one as we age. Long before we start losing muscle.  In general, many of us become less active as we age and that contributes to the muscle loss, and the "decay" (can't think of the correct term) of the joint health and heart health. From there it's just a train wreck as those issues will cause other issues.  What's worse is that the train wreck sneaks up without warning.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> the train wreck sneaks up without warning.


sadly true


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I never knew this... that they did this in Japan too.


I do the same exercise using a bag like this.  I pick up the bag and then I walk with it in my arms or on my shoulders depending on my mood.  Then I slam it on the ground and pick it up again.  On my good days I'll do 5 squats with it on my shoulder then lift it over my head and place it on the other shoulder and do 5 more squats.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I do the same exercise using a bag like this.  I pick up the bag and then I walk with it in my arms or on my shoulders depending on my mood.  Then I slam it on the ground and pick it up again.  On my good days I'll do 5 squats with it on my shoulder then lift it over my head and place it on the other shoulder and do 5 more squats.
> View attachment 29036


what´s the weight ?  looks a good piece of kit


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> what´s the weight ?  looks a good piece of kit


Heavy.  lol.  I'm not sure what the weight is. It's supplied by the gym I go to.  One day I just lifted it and thought that it was heavy enough to train with and not so heavy that it was going to screw up my back.  .  I want to say that it's in the 70lb - 80lb range.  Unfortunately it doesn't have a weight marking on the bag.  The shape makes it an awkward but stable lift.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Heavy.  lol.  I'm not sure what the weight is. It's supplied by the gym I go to.  One day I just lifted it and thought that it was heavy enough to train with and not so heavy that it was going to screw up my back.  .  I want to say that it's in the 70lb - 80lb range.  Unfortunately it doesn't have a weight marking on the bag.  The shape makes it an awkward but stable lift.


so thinking Kgs it´s about  30-36kgs   not really heavy & not the weight of an average man.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> so thinking Kgs it´s about  30-36kgs   not really heavy & not the weight of an average man.


No it's not heavy like that. That would be too heavy for me to train with considering my back issues.   I would be surprised if it's more than that.  I would think that the gym would want a middle range bag that women could work with as well.  If it's more than that, then I'm thankful I haven't messed up my back.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> so thinking Kgs it´s about  30-36kgs   not really heavy & not the weight of an average man.





Size wise.  It's too small to put across shoulders like this.  It's probably half the size of this picture here.  It's a good shoulder fit for carrying on the shoulder.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> No it's not heavy like that. That would be too heavy for me to train with considering my back issues.   I would be surprised if it's more than that.  I would think that the gym would want a middle range bag that women could work with as well.  If it's more than that, then I'm thankful I haven't messed up my back.


yeah not saying it´s bad but a real man struggling & fighting is another thing.  I know that you know this but if i was you train with a heavier weight & try lifting areas where you can use leaverage/balance..this is what Judo is about


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 5, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I don't know anything about that. You Chinese?


Possibly, in another life.

Horned helmet MMA, dude.  Pitfighting.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> yeah not saying it´s bad but a real man struggling & fighting is another thing.  I know that you know this but if i was you train with a heavier weight & try lifting areas where you can use leaverage/balance..this is what Judo is about


I gotta becareful with heavy weights since a back injury for me can take me out of training for 6 months.  I just rather say within a comfortable range and workup from there.  All of my workouts are geared towards time and how long I can apply a consistent strength output for 1 minute.  I remembered that I had video of it.  I forgot why I created, probably for my threads about sharing my work out.   As you can see the bag isn't large.  I do 5 squats using a narrow stance.  In the video I did 25 reps.





After the squats I do frog jumps from one line to the other.  You may be able to see the lines in the picture. I start off with this and I jump about 10 times.  After the first 10, I put aerobic steps in the middle of the floor. Now I'm jumping for height and for distance.  The highest that I've gotten is a little bit lower than the height of my knees in the picture below. I would like to do them more often but I have to be careful of my knees because I'm over weight.  So I only do these maybe once every 3 months for about a week.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> careful of my knees because I'm over weight


Yeah watch it mate...on a plus you're not so overweight that you can't turn it around in a fairly short time but...DIET IS KING
You need to eat good.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 5, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah watch it mate...on a plus you're not so overweight zhst you can't turn it sounds in s fairly short time but...DIET IS KING
> You need to eat good.


Yep I've been cleaning up my diet big time.  I have some special help now because I get sick when I eat junk food and fast food.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> Yep I've been cleaning up my diet big time.  I have some special help now because I get sick when I eat junk food and fast food.


Excuse my mistakes when writing because I write German & English so my phone miss spells at times.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 5, 2022)

Bed time me thinks....


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 6, 2022)

How do you guys "split" your Routines or do you train more full body? I've went through periods of full body or upper/lower.
The 5 day "bro " split I did a while back but mainly it was

Chest & triceps
Back & biceps
Off
Shoulders/traps
Legs
Off
Off
Repeat...

Now I'm splitting my body into two workouts that I rotate


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 6, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> How do you guys "split" your Routines or do you train more full body? I've went through periods of full body or upper/lower.
> The 5 day "bro " split I did a while back but mainly it was
> 
> Chest & triceps
> ...


I set my training into 1st hour martial arts 2nd hour weight training.  The first hour works multiple muscles at the same time. I try to do the same thing with the weights provided that the first hour didn't make me too tired.

I try to work all body parts daily


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 6, 2022)

Sunday: chest with flat, incline and decline press. 3 sets of bicep. 4 sets of dumbbells squat 40lbs each. Pull up. Then punching and kicking and stick on heavy bags. Total of a little over 2 1/2hrs.

Monday: tricep, bicep 3 sets each. Dip with 25lbs weight jacket. grip exercise. Punching and kicking and stick in air. Total of a little less than 2hrs.

Wednesday: tricep, bicep of two different ways, 8 sets each. Twist bar for chest and arms. back with dumbbells. Lunging with 40lbs dumbbells on each side. Then punching and kicking and stick on heavy bags. Total of a little less 2 1/2hrs.

Friday: Leg exercise like deep stance walk for 7:30mins, or double steps up the stairs to second floor 15 to 18times. Some Punching and kicking in air.

I am kind of doing less and less on Friday. It's just too much both mentally and physically. I do a few minutes of stick or punching & kicking at night when weather is colder to keep warm. 2 or 3 time knife practice on heavy bag a week at night. I can't wait for weather to get colder. It's hard to do it when it is warm. Too lazy to shower twice a day.

I try to keep it below 7 hours a weak. it's just too much right now. I am not young anymore!!! I try to spend 50% of time on weights and 50% on MA. I put more importance on weight than MA. Weight training is more important for health particular at old age. If I have to choose one, it's a no brainer, I drop the MA in a heart beat.

Lately I do more bicep and tricep, each day is of different exercise to make sure I stimulate the muscle in different ways.


----------



## MetalBoar (Oct 6, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> How do you guys "split" your Routines or do you train more full body? I've went through periods of full body or upper/lower.
> The 5 day "bro " split I did a while back but mainly it was
> 
> Chest & triceps
> ...


I'm probably going to give you more info than you care about. 

*Short answer:* 

Historically I've preferred one, big, full body workout with primarily machine weights per week when I can, plus whatever I'm doing for martial arts or other activities on top of that.

*Long answer:*

When I was living in Seattle, where I owned a tiny commercial gym, I did one, big, full body, HIT weight lifting workout every week, plus whatever I was doing as part of my martial arts class.  Since I've moved to the southwestern desert and my gym is in my garage, things are a little harder to schedule.  When it's 115F/46C or hotter outside, it's probably not completely safe to do a full HIT routine in the garage and it's definitely miserable to do one, so I've had to modify things a bit and I definitely have a different pattern, summer vs winter (spring and fall are a mix).

*Winter:* I've got two routines and I try to do each once a week, but if I feel like I'm not recovering or I haven't been getting enough sleep or something, I'll drop to one workout/week and alternate.  Sometime I'll sub in something like leg curl or spinal extension for a bigger movement or two if I'm feeling like I want to get a workout in but can't handle that many big, compound exercises. These are all done on machines, with a 10/10 protocol, never unloading, 1 set to complete failure, no rest, move between exercises as quickly as possible, with a target time of about 1 minute, but that varies a bit by exercise.  For example, I've found that I get much better results if I increase weight on the chest press when I hit 46 seconds or longer before failure forces a stop, but my form suffers if I increase weight on the pulldown before I can hit 1 minute 10 seconds.

*Routine A* (Monday)

chest press 
pulldown
hip extension
weighted calf raise
*Routine B* (Thursday)

4-way neck
shoulder press
seated row
leg press
*Summer:*  A lot more body weight exercises and isometrics that I can do in the airconditioned house.  When we have a cooler day, I'll try to fit in 1-3 big exercises out in the garage and mix them up.  So I might manage chest press and pulldown one week and then 2-3 weeks later just get in a leg press or hip extension.

Regardless of season, I do a lot of stuff that I don't really count as exercise.  My wife and I do at least 1 hour of brisk walking together almost every day.  I work at home, in front of a computer all day so whenever I get up I often drop and do 10-20 slow pushups to keep my shoulders from binding up, etc.  The startup I work for just got to a place where I think I'll have a job for a year or two without interruptions so I feel I can safely spend money on a MA class again and that will add to the drills, etc. that I do at home.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 6, 2022)

MetalBoar said:


> I'm probably going to give you more info than you care about.
> 
> *Short answer:*
> 
> ...


You write some very thorough posts always good to read. 
All good


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

Anyone ever use this ..


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

Seen as this is a home gym thread I suppose this might be useful. I'm just wondering if the handles might rotate much looser later on due to wear & tear thus being a problem.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

POF training is also interesting, ( Position of Flexion Training) .





Big guns & Forearms..


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

regarding home gyms



			https://www.x-rep.com/44042/barbell-only-home-workouts/#more-44042


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

I can highly recommend this book. Had it a long time but it's honestly outstanding..Details POF Training


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> I was checking these out last night.  I'll plan to order one in the next couple of days, may be two so I can have one of a different weight.


I should have mentioned make sure you have gym chalk or resin. (I prefer chalk, just try not to breathe it)

You can try without, but there's risk of everything from smashing a toe, to putting a hole through the floor.

I'm other words, never trust your own grip, and notice neither do the experts.  Remember why it's called "shot put"...these things are essentially small 12-16lb cannonball.

My new set came today and it's gorgeous outside, so I know where I'm headed.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 8, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone ever use this ..


Looks interesting but not sure I would buy it.

I like the resistance part but I don't like the limitation of the movement.  When I'm on the speed bag, I can make big circles or small circles or create an oval shape.  I can't do back fist movements.  If a person hits a speed bag with a variety of strikes, then this is going to be a "No buy"  If a person doesn't use a speed bag then they may buy it.   I think I may be better off using resistance bands.  

I do however really like @2:55







Jimmythebull said:


> Seen as this is a home gym thread I suppose this might be useful. I'm just wondering if the handles might rotate much looser later on due to wear & tear thus being a problem.


This would probably be more practical for me. with lat pull downs.  No so much with the curls though since I prefer dumbbells.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

JowGaWolf said:


> This would probably be more practical for me. with lat pull downs. No so much with the curls though since I prefer dumbbells.


I like incline curls with dumbbells as it's definitely a unique feeling & stretch/full ranges of motion. Mostly I use a standard EZ bar for most curling.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 8, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Anyone ever use this ..


Wing Chung people should get this.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Wing Chung people should get this.


Agree ..chain punches ( arrow punches).


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 8, 2022)

Hey Alan check this out 😄


----------



## JowGaWolf (Oct 8, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Agree ..chain punches ( arrow punches).


Not so sure about that.   Maybe some Wing Chun people will give their thoughts on it.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 8, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Hey Alan check this out 😄


I am surprised the bar did not snap.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 8, 2022)

One thing I miss the most is a bench. One that can flat, incline and maybe decline. I have a pair of 80lbs adjustable dumbbells. If only I have a bench. It's not doable, big boss will NEVER let me put one in the family room. That can only happen when I put in the 3rd car garage.

Forget mirrors and all that, just let me have a bench. I'd settle with only flat and incline. Nothing like free weight press.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> One thing I miss the most is a bench. One that can flat, incline and maybe decline. I have a pair of 80lbs adjustable dumbbells. If only I have a bench. It's not doable, big boss will NEVER let me put one in the family room. That can only happen when I put in the 3rd car garage.
> 
> Forget mirrors and all that, just let me have a bench. I'd settle with only flat and incline. Nothing like free weight press.


Yeah my bench is flat / incline. Solid built take anything but doesn't decline. Could get by with a solid flat bench, flat benches hit it all anyway.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah my bench is flat / incline. Solid built take anything but doesn't decline. Could get by with a solid flat bench, flat benches hit it all anyway.


Actually...................It's not to impossible if I get a foldable flat bench. I can always put it in the garage afterwards.

Sometimes it's good to talk here. I kept thinking it's impossible until I stop and think again. I really have to think about it. I have to make sure it's sturdy enough.

Then, I don't have to depend on the elastic belt or wearing all the weights to do pushups. I really like working at home, much more efficient, don't have to do jaw exercise. Spent at least 20mins on jaw exercise in the gym.......if not more.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Actually...................It's not to impossible if I get a foldable flat bench. I can always put it in the garage afterwards.
> 
> Sometimes it's good to talk here. I kept thinking it's impossible until I stop and think again. I really have to think about it. I have to make sure it's sturdy enough.
> 
> Then, I don't have to depend on the elastic belt or wearing all the weights to do pushups.


I actually got mine from a small firm who made their own equipment. Was half the price of a comerercial one but just as solid. 
People forget the bench has to take your bodweight & the training weight you're using.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Actually...................It's not to impossible if I get a foldable flat bench. I can always put it in the garage afterwards.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

That´s mine. looks a bit scratched & worn nowadays but still good. think the picture was taken about 2-3 years ago.  solid though.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Hey Alan check this out 😄


The comments section is a hoot, between people calling the video fake, people who thought the bar might snap, and people who actually lift and know things.

Oh, internet!


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> I am surprised the bar did not snap.


High quality bars (Olympic etc) are rated to around that load (1500lbs or so), and they are very ductile, so I'd imagine its not that hard to find an even higher grade.

Honestly I find any of these high end lifting videos hard to watch...seen too many nasty injuries.  Kind of like watching Nascar, you know if you watch long enough...boom.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The comments section is a hoot, between people calling the video fake, people who thought the bar might snap, and people who actually lift and know things.
> 
> Oh, internet!


I have a feather steel Olympic bar at home. never loaded it to max weight as i doubt i could lift 700 KGS ( not LBS ). sure bars can take a good weight depending on the quality of the bar.  the video looks highly suspect to me...more i won´t say


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> High quality bars (Olympic etc) are rated to around that load (1500lbs


yes & a bar is not just a bar, power bar ...etc  the bar in the video was not an olympic bar as far as i could see. no bar even olympic takes so many wide plates.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> I have a feather steel Olympic bar at home. never loaded it to max weight as i doubt i could lift 700 KGS ( not LBS ). sure bars can take a good weight depending on the quality of the bar.  the video looks highly suspect to me...more i won´t say


I honestly can't tell the difference, I don't have much experience in this area.  I'm more of a weighted carry type of guy, I like moving with weights rather than just standing.  I get bored easily with this kind of thing.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> That´s mine. looks a bit scratched & worn nowadays but still good. think the picture was taken about 2-3 years ago.  solid though.
> 
> View attachment 29063


Yeh, I have second thoughts about buying a bench, it has to be heavy duty, but then it's very heavy. My elastic band work quite well, AND I am not 53!!!! It's not as if I can go far with this anymore.


----------



## Alan0354 (Oct 9, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> yes & a bar is not just a bar, power bar ...etc  the bar in the video was not an olympic bar as far as i could see. no bar even olympic takes so many wide plates.


Yeh, normal bar is a lot shorter, it's 45lbs. I think you can put like 10 plates max on each side. Hell, that's already 945lbs!!! How many people in this world can bench that?!!!

I have to question how real was that video. I know the guy is very strong, but all that plates, that looks like over 3000lbs. Even if 1/2 is hollow, that's very impressive!!!!


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, normal bar is a lot shorter, it's 45lbs. I think you can put like 10 plates max on each side. Hell, that's already 945lbs!!! How many people in this world can bench that?!!!
> 
> I have to question how real was that video. I know the guy is very strong, but all that plates, that looks like over 3000lbs. Even if 1/2 is hollow, that's very impressive!!!!


The bar does look olympic just looked again but custom built obviously to accomodate the plates where I would like to see Standard iron olymic plates on there.Olympic 45s. Bumper plates are much wider than iron


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I honestly can't tell the difference, I don't have much experience in this area.  I'm more of a weighted carry type of guy, I like moving with weights rather than just standing.  I get bored easily with this kind of thing.


Mind you I've seen Videos of old York or weider 1" Bars handle good weight too


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, I have second thoughts about buying a bench, it has to be heavy duty, but then it's very heavy. My elastic band work quite well, AND I am not 53!!!! It's not as if I can go far with this anymore.


Something like this would work too.


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 9, 2022)

Alan0354 said:


> Yeh, normal bar is a lot shorter, it's 45lbs. I think you can put like 10 plates max on each side. Hell, that's already 945lbs!!! How many people in this world can bench that?!!!
> 
> I have to question how real was that video. I know the guy is very strong, but all that plates, that looks like over 3000lbs. Even if 1/2 is hollow, that's very impressive!!!!


I suck at physics but I know a little about wiring , now that I think about it, if that video is legit, I think the custom length of the bar is why it wouldn't snap, and also the reason for the spring action.

Trying to wrap my head around it, this is a lot different than lifting weight directly above you with a solid bar.  His bar _starts_ bent.  So it's already holding some of that load...meaning he's not lifting some portion, the action of the bar is helping.  Like a simple machine.

Am I crazy?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 10, 2022)

relevant for people alone in a home gym..


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 11, 2022)

Wow...


----------



## Oily Dragon (Oct 11, 2022)

Master Chiu Wai approves of this thread.*





_
*not a formal endorsement of this thread, I don't know this dude personally, just through other people._


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Master Chiu Wai approves of this thread.*
> 
> View attachment 29085
> 
> _*not a formal endorsement of this thread, I don't know this dude personally, just through other people._


My teacher had big muscle too.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Master Chiu Wai approves of this thread.*
> 
> View attachment 29085
> 
> _*not a formal endorsement of this thread, I don't know this dude personally, just through other people._


Are these studded wrist bands a kung fu thing? 🤣
Anyone wanna mess with this Gym Rat?


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My teacher had big muscle too.
> 
> View attachment 29087
> 
> View attachment 29086


The guy in the top picture (might also be him in the bottom one but older) is in this video. Same Pose @ 5:23


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

I agree with him that the average home lifter just needs an average bar but don't go for the cheap Olympic Bar from the Internet. Infact in the USA you can probably find a good old school York Bar which just needs a clean up. Which would be my first choice..seen some going very cheap because people either don't know the quality of the Bar or just want rid of it.


----------



## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

Look at this baby ...








						Vintage York split sleeve Olympic barbell - sporting goods - by...
					

Vintage York split sleeve Olympic barbell. Excellent condition. Sleeves spin smoothly. End cap secured with hex screws. Bar is likely from the 1970s. Price is firm. Pickup in 18013.



					allentown.craigslist.org


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

This guys wants a fair bit for this bar but it looks well kept & being honest for this price such quality is not easy to find for the price asked.
This baby would be going home with me if I lived there or could get it sent. 😄








						VINTAGE YORK BARBELL 7' OLYMPIC BAR weights gym equipment - sporting...
					

VINTAGE SPLIT-SLEEVE YORK BARBELL 7' OLYMPIC BAR....$225. SWEET CONDITION, STRAIGHT, SLEEVES SPIN GREAT. NO TEXTS, CALLS OR EMAILS ONLY.



					baltimore.craigslist.org


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

not sure about @ 0.16   but hey maybe he knows & i don´t. I liked the bands coming from two directions on the standing punches though.






anyway i think Alan is our Bands, constant tension expert on here.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 12, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Are these studded wrist bands a kung fu thing? 🤣
> Anyone wanna mess with this Gym Rat?


It's basically a leather bracer.  It serves as armor, as an archery arm guard, and in the studded case (seen in a few different CMA styles), a weapon.

The southern systems in particular are keen on building up massive Popeye like forearms, and then in traditional fashion you'd strap on these bad boys and go to war.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's basically a leather bracer.  It serves as armor, as an archery arm guard, and in the studded case (seen in a few different CMA styles), a weapon.
> 
> The southern systems in particular are keen on building up massive Popeye like forearms, and then in traditional fashion you'd strap on these bad boys and go to war.


i think i saw it in a Hung Gar kung fu film ?  ..not sure.  
Anyway in my quest to build he-man strength as a kid i remember the Bazooka Joe Bubble gum offered you something like a leather bracer to be able to split wood.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 13, 2022)

impressive for a 1" Bar...


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

Doug brignole just passed away. People here into weight training probably know who he was. He had his own ideas on weight training. RIP.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 14, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Doug brignole just passed away. People here into weight training probably know who he was. He had his own ideas on weight training. RIP.


Ohh what no way!!! He was still training and competing in the over 50s division... far out


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 14, 2022)

_Simon_ said:


> Ohh what no way!!! He was still training and competing in the over 50s division... far out


Yeah such a shock..


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

This Guy was a machine !


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## tkdroamer (Oct 15, 2022)

Jimmythebull said:


> Yeah such a shock..


COD?


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

tkdroamer said:


> COD?


not sure but i know he was vaccinated, not saying this was the cause of death but given that he did mention he had changes in his heart wall & thickening of the wall also was on blood thinners.
side effects ? speculation but...
I should mention the above problems he had* before *the jab.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)




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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

definetly better for older people & even young guys


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

John Heart mentions he was found face down with a blue face so i think it was his heart.  I read this on another source, his cleaning lady found him.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 15, 2022)

Old School baby !  Bull approved.






EDIT: i would use higher reps on smaller muscle groups not 5 reps.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's basically a leather bracer.  It serves as armor, as an archery arm guard, and in the studded case (seen in a few different CMA styles), a weapon.
> 
> The southern systems in particular are keen on building up massive Popeye like forearms, and then in traditional fashion you'd strap on these bad boys and go to war.


One only needs to do some forearm conditioning with someone with hard forearms and you'll start to wish for these things lol.


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## Jimmythebull (Oct 16, 2022)

wow...just wow   😍


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