# Judo Vs BJJ



## tmanifold

On the 50th anniversery of the epic battle between Helio Gracie and Kimura, Royce gracie fought Olympic Gold medal Judo player Yoshida. And lost.

Yes as with the first fight BJJ lost to Judo. Yoshida choked out Royce in their match at Pride.  Royce says he didn't tap (and judging from when he lost to Wallid Ishmal I might believe him) but he was submitted.  The match was fought under modified rles which did not allow striking to the face or any striking on the ground.


Man royce is have some problems theses days,

Tony


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## arnisador

It sounds like the BJJ group is seriously contesting calling this a victory due to the tap issue but it also seems clear that the jodoka dominated this particualr fight.


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## J-kid

if you taped it i will buy, Please say you did,


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## tmanifold

it is on US ppv sept 1

Check www.pridefc.com for details

Tony


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## darkdragoon

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> 
> *On the 50th anniversery of the epic battle between Helio Gracie and Kimura, Royce gracie fought Olympic Gold medal Judo player Yoshida. And lost.
> 
> Yes as with the first fight BJJ lost to Judo. Yoshida choked out Royce in their match at Pride.  Royce says he didn't tap (and judging from when he lost to Wallid Ishmal I might believe him) but he was submitted.  The match was fought under modified rles which did not allow striking to the face or any striking on the ground.
> 
> Man royce is have some problems theses days,
> 
> Tony *



It appears the ref thought Royce had passed out from the "clock" choke. 

Yoshida did well but really couldn't keep Royce from pulling guard.  He did defend a leg submission attempt well though.


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## tmanifold

I finally watched the fight. I agree that that Royce didn't tap. Yoshida went for the sleeve choke but Royce had space. I think yoshida performed well against Gracie's attempts to pull to guard. Royce was never in an advantageous postion. 
 It is a shame that it had to go that way, though. Yoshida is a champion and he doesn't need to win that way. As I understand it Yoshida has already agreed to a rematch with Royce. From what I understand it was offered almost immediately.

Tony


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## ace

A Rematch would be good for the fans.
This time it should be good old fashon Vale Tudo.

This would give a better show to the fans of MMA.

:asian: 
Primo


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## JDenz

Royce was never in danger from the that choke.  I think he was in a little more trouble with the leg lock war then he was in that choke.  And he was doing good until they stopped the fight.


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## MartialArtist

It really doesn't prove anything.  It just proved who was the better fighter.  Styles don't batter each other.


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## sammy3170

> _Originally posted by tmanifold _
> *
> 
> Yes as with the first fight BJJ lost to Judo.
> 
> Tony *



I don't want to get into a pissing contest but Helio was Rendered unconscious by Kimura (didn't tap, came to and continued to fight), was put in a headlock so stong he was bleeding from his ear and when Kimura got him in an armber his corner threw in the towel.  Now whether or not he said he could go longer than a certain time matters little. If he were fighting under todays rules if you're out you've lost.  Mysteriously there is only about 2 minutes of this footage (out of a 13 minute fight) available thus making Helio look better than he was on the day.   I'm not taking anything away from the Gracies they are great grapplers just that some of their facts have been flexed a little.

Cheers
Sammy


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## Elfan

I watched the fight and I agree that he did not tap.  However, one fight doesn't determine the effectivenss of BBJ or judo.  Who wins those fights really isn't a big deal to me, I just like watching.


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## Hollywood1340

Because BJJ is actually Judo Ne Waza repackaged  Also Judo is the one common thread among MMA's. Kowinkidink? I don't think so


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## JDenz

Okay not ot make excuses for  Helio but he was ALOT lighter then the judo guy.  Also he was never even the best in the faimly.  He orginaly never even had lessons just learned from wathing for a long time.    I can't really say to much about that match though since not to many people have seen the whole thing, although Helio showed alot of heart and skill in that match.

         Royce Yoshida was a mismatch from the beginning.  Yoshida was the best in his weight in the world agianst the best compition in the world.   Royce is good but he is not on that level.    Royce has never won the mundails, never won in ADCC never won in any major Bjj tournaments, sure he is good just not world class.  Many think Rolyer and Renzo are both better sport guys and neither one of them have won the mundials either at least Royler held his own.  Not only that it was a terrable call.  And who was winning the fight depends on your view of the fight.  If you are a judo guy you would say Yoshida because Royce kept pulling guard to his back to avoid the throw.  If you are a bjj guy you say Royce because Yoshida was not being allowed to use his best techs.


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## ace

He lost to Ude Garami.
Look up Helio Vs Kimura there is a pic on the Web.

And having seen the Royce fight 
The Ref was out of place He was not in Danger

It was a realy bad call.


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## Nyoongar

Judo the "mother art" spanks her little BJJ boy again. This time, it was because he was getting too big for his boots.


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## ace

Than there are BJJ to Judo
Note i am not Ranked in BJJ or Judo

I like both arts but facts are facts
& thats the bottom line :asian:


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## GouRonin

I have done both some Judo and some BJJ. I find the Judo guys have a better sense of balance while standing but seem to fall apart on the ground while the BJJ guys tend to excell after the ground game is started. You find that? Just curious.


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## JDenz

I find most Judo guys that I have faced are not that good at either and most of the BJJ guys till past Blue are really only good at stalling but I think by belt rank BJJ guys are far supior to Judo guys on the ground and I think until about 5 years ago the opposite is true but with the best BJJ guys geting good takedowns it is working it's way down the line.


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## ace

I've met both good & bad practioners at both.

I have Met some Judo guy's 
that were well versed in the Ground Game
I've met some BJJ guy's that were as good standing
as they were on the ground.

I have met some who seem to be lacking 
i think Judo is a bit more limited do to
the rules in the sport.
How ever that does not apply to all.
________________________________________-

Now as for the Record of Fighting
BJJ guy's do have the higher advantege
But there have been Wins on the Judo side as well.
-____________________________________________-
For me personaly i feel both arts/sports are good
And FUN above all.
Also i have met some truely cool people from both. 
_____________________________________________-----

Happy New Year Everyone


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## Infight

Hi, im a brazilian guy and pratices Jiu-Jitsu here. I dont think this talking leads to anything, BJJ and Judo are brother arts, many Judokas pratices BJJ here, and the same thing BJJ pratices Judo, the larger Japanese colony in the world is here in Brazil, and the link between the arts is really great.
 Many Judokas that i fought are great newaza fighters, their only flawless is the lack of leglock training, so if you go for their leg and ankle locks, maybe you can have a great chance to win, but its almost impossible to take them down.
 Every japanese martial art has its goods ( chinese ones are just plastic ones, not efective in my opinion), like Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, Karate. These one are all good ones to learn, and focuses what the other ones lacks, so they all compliment the rest of them, that way there is no sense this talking.


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## J-kid

Well i do both, 
and i like both arts.
I would have to say its who ever is the better fighter.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *Hi, im a brazilian guy and pratices Jiu-Jitsu here. I dont think this talking leads to anything, BJJ and Judo are brother arts, many Judokas pratices BJJ here, and the same thing BJJ pratices Judo, the larger Japanese colony in the world is here in Brazil, and the link between the arts is really great.
> Many Judokas that i fought are great newaza fighters, their only flawless is the lack of leglock training, so if you go for their leg and ankle locks, maybe you can have a great chance to win, but its almost impossible to take them down.
> Every japanese martial art has its goods ( chinese ones are just plastic ones, not efective in my opinion), like Aikido, Judo, Jujutsu, Karate. These one are all good ones to learn, and focuses what the other ones lacks, so they all compliment the rest of them, that way there is no sense this talking. *



Do U Live in Brasil?


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## Infight

Hi!

 Yup, i live in Brazil - São Paulo


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## ace

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *Hi!
> 
> Yup, i live in Brazil - São Paulo *




Saw nothing in Your file Tell us about 
Your Self & Your training.  Who is your instructor.

I Had the plesure of Meeting Eshfia a few months back
Realy good Guy Maybe u know him??

Just a few quick Questions from Primo


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## Infight

Hi, hehe about me, im 26 yrs old, i train bjj in the INFIGHT Jiu-Jitsu gym, 5th place in world championship of BJJ, that happened here in Sao Paulo, here you can make youre schedule, there are training everyday, you pay the month training, and can attend any class, anytime, each class is 2 hrs long, 30 min for warm up, and 1 and 30 min with techniques and fights ( hehe to be serious we fight allllll time, best way to learn), its something like US$30 to train all month.
       We dont call our instructors sensei, we call them masters, their nicknames are Paulinho and Pitoco. if want to know go to www.infight.com.br, of course most will speak just portuguese, but many knows english, so you can go to forum talk to people. We compete with Alliance, Gracie Barra, Gracie Sao Paulo, and Macaco Gold Gym to be the best of Brazil and the World, but all gyms are good ones. Some Pride Fighters as Ryan Gracie and Daniel Simões are my friends, Simões owns Gracie ABC, in a city near mine. ( hes cousin of gracie family, they threat him as a gracie)
       Well, i dont know this guy, where is he from? where he trains? Hope have answered youre questions


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## ace

> _Originally posted by Infight _
> *Hi, hehe about me, im 26 yrs old, i train bjj in the INFIGHT Jiu-Jitsu gym, 5th place in world championship of BJJ, that happened here in Sao Paulo, here you can make youre schedule, there are training everyday, you pay the month training, and can attend any class, anytime, each class is 2 hrs long, 30 min for warm up, and 1 and 30 min with techniques and fights ( hehe to be serious we fight allllll time, best way to learn), its something like US$30 to train all month.
> We dont call our instructors sensei, we call them masters, their nicknames are Paulinho and Pitoco. if want to know go to www.infight.com.br, of course most will speak just portuguese, but many knows english, so you can go to forum talk to people. We compete with Alliance, Gracie Barra, Gracie Sao Paulo, and Macaco Gold Gym to be the best of Brazil and the World, but all gyms are good ones. Some Pride Fighters as Ryan Gracie and Daniel Simões are my friends, Simões owns Gracie ABC, in a city near mine. ( hes cousin of gracie family, they threat him as a gracie)
> Well, i dont know this guy, where is he from? where he trains? Hope have answered youre questions *




Cool Glad To Have u on Martial Talk


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## Infight

Thanks!


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by GouRonin _
> *I have done both some Judo and some BJJ. I find the Judo guys have a better sense of balance while standing but seem to fall apart on the ground while the BJJ guys tend to excell after the ground game is started. You find that? Just curious.
> *



This is true. 

Judo has quite a bit of technique starting from the feet while BJJ concentrates on the ground. BJJ guys can stand up and fight but on the ground I beleive BJJ is the most comprehensive.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *I've met both good & bad practioners at both.
> 
> I have Met some Judo guy's
> that were well versed in the Ground Game
> I've met some BJJ guy's that were as good standing
> as they were on the ground.
> 
> I have met some who seem to be lacking
> i think Judo is a bit more limited do to
> the rules in the sport.
> How ever that does not apply to all.
> ________________________________________-
> 
> Now as for the Record of Fighting
> BJJ guy's do have the higher advantege
> But there have been Wins on the Judo side as well.
> -____________________________________________-
> For me personaly i feel both arts/sports are good
> And FUN above all.
> Also i have met some truely cool people from both.
> _____________________________________________-----
> 
> Happy New Year Everyone *


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## James Kovacich

Ace,

At times we too think alike. I checked your profile. You know Dave Howe right? And thats you there too? Primo? I heard someone in here mention that name.

On another forum his username was NAFF Dave or something like that but I know you must know him he's a 6th degree (I think) at your fedrations site.

Any way I have respect for someone who stands their ground for their art and he did. I will push a bit but thats what its about. isn't it?


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## James Kovacich

Ace, 

If you are training Trad. JJ and BJJ you are on the rightious path. They both have what the other can use.

I've got a few years BJJ and I'm now learning George Kirbys Budoshin Ju Jitsu and George Alexanders Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu.

It adds a whole new lite to things.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Ace,
> 
> At times we too think alike. I checked your profile. You know Dave Howe right? And thats you there too? Primo? I heard someone in here mention that name.
> 
> On another forum his username was NAFF Dave or something like that but I know you must know him he's a 6th degree (I think) at your fedrations site.
> 
> Any way I have respect for someone who stands their ground for their art and he did. I will push a bit but thats what its about. isn't it? *




My Name is Primo luciano
That is My Birth given Name
My Father is Puerto Rican
My Mother German,Irish & Native American Indian
I Am a Mut


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## JDenz

A tough mutt lol or did you mean nut JK


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## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *A tough mutt lol or did you mean nut JK *



Now U are going to corect my spelling.:jediduel:


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *My Name is Primo luciano
> That is My Birth given Name
> My Father is Puerto Rican
> My Mother German,Irish & Native American Indian
> I Am a Mut   *



I'm a Croation and Spanish and my kids are Spanish, Croation, Mexican and Native American Indian (either Cheyenne or Cherokee, the family isn't sure but they were from Texas). Muts also.

So you know Dave then, right?


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## JDenz

Just teasing


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Just teasing *



Hey JDENZ,

You've trained with ACE? I think your the one i heard use his real name.


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *Now U are going to corect my spelling.:jediduel: *



I guess that would make us nutts too, not mutts!


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## JDenz

ya I train with Primo


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *ya I train with Primo *



And you guys use both Trad. JJ and BJJ?


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## JDenz

and wrestling


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## James Kovacich

BJJ gave a real good base. Now I'm practicing Trad. Jujitsu and adding a new flavor to my ground game.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *and wrestling *





:asian:


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## JDenz

=-) thats the spirt


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## ace

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I'm a Croation and Spanish and my kids are Spanish, Croation, Mexican and Native American Indian (either Cheyenne or Cherokee, the family isn't sure but they were from Texas). Muts also.
> 
> So you know Dave then, right? *



Cool


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *I'm a Croation and Spanish and my kids are Spanish, Croation, Mexican and Native American Indian (either Cheyenne or Cherokee, the family isn't sure but they were from Texas). Muts also.
> 
> So you know Dave then, right? *



Actually my kids are also part Yaqui Indian from one of their grandmothers.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Just teasing *


it's all good
:boing1: :boing1:


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## ace

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *Ace,
> 
> If you are training Trad. JJ and BJJ you are on the rightious path. They both have what the other can use.
> 
> I've got a few years BJJ and I'm now learning George Kirbys Budoshin Ju Jitsu and George Alexanders Shorinji Ryu Jujitsu.
> 
> It adds a whole new lite to things. *


I've also Practice Modern Arnis, Judo , JKD/Mauy Thai/Kali
Boxing/Kickboxing

Submisson Wrestling , Wrestling & Bondo

Submisson is my Ace in the Hole But i like to 
keep my head fresh & not try to close opean doors.

I Have Met & trained With Some 
Out stand Martial Artist/Wrestlers.
Everyone i train with has Helped Me progress
And i all ways Try to give something back.

For Me Fighting/Martial Arts is a Never ending Circle.
Jdenz is just 1 of Many Great People i have met in my 
search for Knowledge.


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## JDenz

See you at practice tomorrow Primo it is going to be a tough one lol hope you bring a clen pair of clothes to go home in it is going to be hot.


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## ace

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *See you at practice tomorrow Primo it is going to be a tough one lol hope you bring a clen pair of clothes to go home in it is going to be hot. *



See u at wrestling


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *I've also Practice Modern Arnis, Judo , JKD/Mauy Thai/Kali
> Boxing/Kickboxing
> 
> Submisson Wrestling , Wrestling & Bondo
> 
> Submisson is my Ace in the Hole But i like to
> keep my head fresh & not try to close opean doors.
> 
> I Have Met & trained With Some
> Out stand Martial Artist/Wrestlers.
> Everyone i train with has Helped Me progress
> And i all ways Try to give something back.
> 
> For Me Fighting/Martial Arts is a Never ending Circle.
> Jdenz is just 1 of Many Great People i have met in my
> search for Knowledge. *



The way you train is a must. Everybody my age thinks old school but today you have to be well rounded. I have many arts in my backround but my fighting skills that I rely on are JKD, BJJ and I'm adding Trad. JJ and I'm learning footwork from other styles as well.

I have several teachers and even though they are old school, they have a lot to offer. I will not disrespect them in any way and one by one they are accepting what I do as martial art and backing me up. 

One day I would like to meet up with some of you guys. I will not have a problem emptying my cup!


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## ace

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *The way you train is a must. Everybody my age thinks old school but today you have to be well rounded. I have many arts in my backround but my fighting skills that I rely on are JKD, BJJ and I'm adding Trad. JJ and I'm learning footwork from other styles as well.
> 
> I have several teachers and even though they are old school, they have a lot to offer. I will not disrespect them in any way and one by one they are accepting what I do as martial art and backing me up.
> 
> One day I would like to meet up with some of you guys. I will not have a problem emptying my cup! *


We are at Horizon Martial Arts
675-0899 Everyone is Welcome to come 

Mixing Arts is the Way to go
Good Luck in Your training


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by ace _
> *We are at Horizon Martial Arts
> 675-0899 Everyone is Welcome to come
> 
> Mixing Arts is the Way to go
> Good Luck in Your training *



I just printed it out, thanx. My oldest daughter lives in Rhode Island and we've been planning on going out there and we are  going to NY too. Its good to know that I will be able to train and meet knew friends!


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## JDenz

Definitly I will  be there that day.


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## James Kovacich

> _Originally posted by JDenz _
> *Definitly I will  be there that day. *



What do I have to look forward to?


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## ace

> _Originally posted by akja _
> *What do I have to look forward to? *


There are also class's in FMA


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## MartialArtist

I honestly can't see the logic of how you determine how one art is better than another because of watching fights.  Again, there is no such thing as a better art really.  Instead of focusing on how in this fight, judo did this while BJJ did this, just enjoy the match.  It's a lot more fun that way.  After that, you can study the tapes if you want but at least watch the match at least once.  And systems never battle, participants battle, and leave it at that.


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## Littledragon

tmanifold said:
			
		

> On the 50th anniversery of the epic battle between Helio Gracie and Kimura, Royce gracie fought Olympic Gold medal Judo player Yoshida. And lost.
> 
> Yes as with the first fight BJJ lost to Judo. Yoshida choked out Royce in their match at Pride. Royce says he didn't tap (and judging from when he lost to Wallid Ishmal I might believe him) but he was submitted. The match was fought under modified rles which did not allow striking to the face or any striking on the ground.
> 
> 
> Man royce is have some problems theses days,
> 
> Tony


If a boxer beat a martial artist would you say boxing was better than martial arts??

"Yoshida attempted an Ezequiel choke as a way to advance in his position. The attack NEVER set in as Royce adjusted himself well. With the attempted choke well defended and not threatening to improve Royce decided to stay put and see what Yoshida would attempt next. At that point the referee inexplicably stopped the match."


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## Aegis

By the sounds of it he failed to respond to the referee trying to find out if he was able to continue. That's enough reason to halt a match, so tough luck really.


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## Littledragon

Aegis said:
			
		

> By the sounds of it he failed to respond to the referee trying to find out if he was able to continue. That's enough reason to halt a match, so tough luck really.


If you really watch the match it is clear that he is in no pain and the ref should have never stopped it.

Tarek


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## Aegis

Doesn't matter if he appeared to be in pain or not, if he didn't respond to the ref then the ref made the right call.


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## Littledragon

Aegis said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter if he appeared to be in pain or not, if he didn't respond to the ref then the ref made the right call.


That wasn't the factor. Have you seen the fight?


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## Aegis

Nope. What I've heard are the opinions of a lot of people who have, many of whom I respect. They agree that while Gracie wasn't out (shown by him standing almost as soon as the call was made) he didn't respond to the referee or move in any way to show that he was still in the fight. As such the ref made a call based on what he could see, which was a strangle being applied to a non-moving opponent. As a ref I'd have made the exact same call for the safety of the combatants.


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## Littledragon

Aegis said:
			
		

> Nope. What I've heard are the opinions of a lot of people who have, many of whom I respect. They agree that while Gracie wasn't out (shown by him standing almost as soon as the call was made) he didn't respond to the referee or move in any way to show that he was still in the fight. As such the ref made a call based on what he could see, which was a strangle being applied to a non-moving opponent. As a ref I'd have made the exact same call for the safety of the combatants.


Techniqcally he lost because the ref is in charge of making the decision but as a real fight between two champion martial artist he did not LOOSE.


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## hedgehogey

Are you guys not aware that the rematch already happened?


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## Littledragon

hedgehogey said:
			
		

> Are you guys not aware that the rematch already happened?


Yes I am aware.


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## Patrick Skerry

tmanifold said:
			
		

> On the 50th anniversery of the epic battle between Helio Gracie and Kimura, Royce gracie fought Olympic Gold medal Judo player Yoshida. And lost.
> 
> Yes as with the first fight BJJ lost to Judo. Yoshida choked out Royce in their match at Pride. Royce says he didn't tap (and judging from when he lost to Wallid Ishmal I might believe him) but he was submitted. The match was fought under modified rles which did not allow striking to the face or any striking on the ground.
> 
> 
> Man royce is have some problems theses days,
> 
> Tony


I saw this video, and watched it three times very carefully.  Royce went limp as a dishrag, he was out of it.  You can't tap out when you're put out!  So the referee made the correct call.  Royce lost to judo.


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