# Boy Scouts



## Monkey Turned Wolf

Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?


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## Tames D

I have two boys in the scouts. A 13 year old and an 11 year old. One is a life scout and the other is right behind him. I had no interest in being a leader in this, but now I find myself as an assistant scout master. They need help so I'm there. It is actually rewarding for me. I'll do whatever it takes for my boys.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Happens a lot, parents who dont want to be leaders volunteer once and get pulled in to it  Life at 13 is impressive, you should be proud of them.


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## Tames D

So where do you fall into this catagory? Scout, Leader?


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## Blindside

Am/was an eagle scout, my experiences in scouting are what led me to my career, so "life changing" is an appropriate description for my time in the troop.  My parents actually forced me to join and required that I do it for one year, so nice job to them!

My own sons are years out from being able to join Boy Scouts, but I will encourage them to do so if they are even remotely interested.


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## Tames D

Blindside said:


> Am/was an eagle scout, my experiences in scouting are what led me to my career, so "life changing" is an appropriate description for my time in the troop.  My parents actually forced me to join and required that I do it for one year, so nice job to them!
> 
> My own sons are years out from being able to join Boy Scouts, but I will encourage them to do so if they are even remotely interested.



I'm told that Eagle Scout is a good thing to have on your resume.


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## granfire

Tames D said:


> I have two boys in the scouts. A 13 year old and an 11 year old. One is a life scout and the other is right behind him. I had no interest in being a leader in this, but now I find myself as an assistant scout master. They need help so I'm there. It is actually rewarding for me. I'll do whatever it takes for my boys.



Seriously, Life at 13 is AMAZING!

Yep, i am in the category of being sucked in.
Just got back from the scout office, putting in my application for merit badge counselor in 2 subjects. I am on the comity for the troop, and all around first responder when something is needed. 

It is an amazing experience for the kids when you have good leadership!

And yes, as a parent you have to kind of put the nudge on from time to time when things don't work out right away.


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## pgsmith

I was in the Scouting program as a leader for about 14 years. I was a Cub Scout den leader, Boy Scout asst. leader, committee chair, and then Scoutmaster for 6 years. While the Scouting program isn't perfect, it is one of the few places that still work well to teach young men how to be leaders. Many of today's Scout Troops are simply places to entertain the boys, or places to get the boys rank. However, if the program is followed as laid out in the Scout leader's handbook (with modifications to suit your troop), then it does a very good job of teaching the boys how to make good decisions, and be a leader both in the community and amongst their peers.

  I urge everyone that has boys between the ages of 6 and 18 to get actively involved in their local Cub Pack or Scout Troop. It's a pain, takes a lot of patience, and eats a lot of your time. The training that you've got to take to get a good handle on what you're supposed to be doing is time consuming when you'd rather be doing something (anything) else. However, when you have boys that you've guided to Eagle that come back years later to thank you for your guidance, and occasional yelling, then you realize that it's worth the effort to make a substantial difference in our youth. This is not just for the men either. I had several women that were asst. Scoutmasters in our troop. If not for the Moms that took the time to get involved in our small troop, we would never have had enough leadership to accomplish what we did.



> I'm told that Eagle Scout is a good thing to have on your resume.



  One of my Eagle Scouts was granted a scholarship for study abroad in Europe a couple of years back. He was told that he got the scholarship over another person because of his Eagle rank. I had one that was recently hired by the FBI that was told that his Eagle award was what put him over the top. I work for a large defense contractractor, and our recruiters that visit colleges interviewing prospective new engineers to hire are told to give preference, and make higher offers, to those candidates which hold a Girl Scout Gold Award, or a Boy Scout Eagle rank.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tames D said:


> So where do you fall into this catagory? Scout, Leader?


Im an eagle scout, and an assistant scoutmaster


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

pgsmith said:


> I was in the Scouting program as a leader for about 14 years. I was a Cub Scout den leader, Boy Scout asst. leader, committee chair, and then Scoutmaster for 6 years. While the Scouting program isn't perfect, it is one of the few places that still work well to teach young men how to be leaders. Many of today's Scout Troops are simply places to entertain the boys, or places to get the boys rank. However, if the program is followed as laid out in the Scout leader's handbook (with modifications to suit your troop), then it does a very good job of teaching the boys how to make good decisions, and be a leader both in the community and amongst their peers.



Very impressive, it's amazing seeing people that involved, love it when I get the chance to meet/talk to people who have tha tmuch experience in scouting 



> I urge everyone that has boys between the ages of 6 and 18 to get actively involved in their local Cub Pack or Scout Troop. It's a pain, takes a lot of patience, and eats a lot of your time. The training that you've got to take to get a good handle on what you're supposed to be doing is time consuming when you'd rather be doing something (anything) else. However, when you have boys that you've guided to Eagle that come back years later to thank you for your guidance, and occasional yelling, then you realize that it's worth the effort to make a substantial difference in our youth. This is not just for the men either. I had several women that were asst. Scoutmasters in our troop. If not for the Moms that took the time to get involved in our small troop, we would never have had enough leadership to accomplish what we did.



Sooo true. Just two years as an 'adult' and I'm already seeing the effects scouting has had on me. Taught me to both be a better person, who understands why friendship is important (when you're canooing 60 miles in maine with no one but those people, being friends with them helps a lot), how to talk to people in charge of me with respect, but still getting my point across, and how to lead those both more and less experienced then myself. To think, before scouting I was a shy, quiet boy who was, in all honesty, a bit of an a**.


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## shesulsa

I did the girl scout thing with my daughter and now my soon-to-be-14 year old son is finding himself in boy scouts. He *LOVES* the outdoorsmanship and survival tactics he is learning and developing. He *LOVES* to hike, as well and is a natural leader.  His troop leaders usually include him in youth leadership groups where they usually only take 14 years & older or first class scouts when he is neither. 

My husband is "involved" as an assistant scoutmaster. I may get involved as well. He is very interested in Venturing which really excites me.

We have come up against some friends who can't believe we continue in the organization with their anti-gay stance, though.

Fortunately, we have not had any leaders or parents be vocal about these types of sentiments in our pack.  

Jared didn't think he would enjoy scouting but he is really finding himself and finding something that helps him self-nurture and I'm SO grateful. I'm sure he will become Eagle but even if he doesn't, I'm happy that this experience is doing so very much for him elsewise and that he's having fun and making friends.


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## arnisador

shesulsa said:


> We have come up against some friends who can't believe we continue in the organization with their anti-gay stance, though.
> 
> Fortunately, we have not had any leaders or parents be vocal about these types of sentiments in our pack.



That seems very _unfortunate _to me. The program has clear benefits and I can understand someone deciding to continue with it despite its homophobic stance, but no one being vocal and making it clear that they support the program _despite _its discriminatory nature is a sad situation in my opinion.

I made it to the Webelo stage.


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## Tames D

My boys have been in the Scouts for 8 years now. I have NEVER heard anything about an anti gay stance.


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## Steve

I had some issues with the Girl Scouts.  It became clear pretty quickly that they, much like the komen foundation, are about generating revenue more than anything else.  I was the cookie "mom" for my daughter's brownie troop and will never buy another box of those cookies.  




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Carol

I believe Eagle Scouts who enlist in the army may be able to join as an E3 instead of E1.  By comparison...my niece also started as an E3 - Private, First Class - due to her 3 years of success in  her high school's Jr. ROTC. (She is a sergeant now, deployed).

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2


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## Tames D

kempodisciple said:


> Im an eagle scout, and an assistant scoutmaster



What council/district do you belong?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tames D said:


> What council/district do you belong?


Suffolk county council, Matinecock district (although the other troops I've mentioned in my last posts are troops from other districts, that I've met through summer camp or the national jamboree). what council/district is your troop in?


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## Tez3

Our Scouts (they dropped the 'boy' bit a long time ago) and Guides which are the parent bodies of all other scouting movements, are non political, practice tolerance whatever your religion and sexuality and are a huge influence on the kids who join. Scouts are for boys and girls, Guides have stayed single sex. These organisations aren't just for the white middle class they also work into deprived areas bring activities to inner city kids. 

http://scouts.org.uk/whatwedo
http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us.aspx

I was a Brownies and a Guide and have also been a Cub and a Brownie leader. I'd recommend either of these to anyone child or adult.

The organisations here have a history of doing vital work for the country which was one of the founders Baden Powell's main ideas, that young people would be useful.
http://lesliesguidinghistory.webs.com/guidesatwar.htm


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> Our Scouts (they dropped the 'boy' bit a long time ago) and Guides which are the parent bodies of all other scouting movements, are non political, practice tolerance whatever your religion and sexuality and are a huge influence on the kids who join. Scouts are for boys and girls, Guides have stayed single sex. These organisations aren't just for the white middle class they also work into deprived areas bring activities to inner city kids.
> 
> http://scouts.org.uk/whatwedo
> http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/about_us.aspx
> 
> I was a Brownies and a Guide and have also been a Cub and a Brownie leader. I'd recommend either of these to anyone child or adult.
> 
> The organisations here have a history of doing vital work for the country which was one of the founders Baden Powell's main ideas, that young people would be useful.
> http://lesliesguidinghistory.webs.com/guidesatwar.htm



In the US traditions die slowly. Go figure! 

I don't think it's a bad thing to have a bit of gender segregation at this age though. Girls and boys do tend to have different perspectives. And I do have to say, they boys need a bit sheltering. 

But even with the flaws of scouting, the benefits outweight the drawbacks. At least in our case. We have great leadership and the support people are starting to get the hang of it, since we are all pretty new to it. Up until this summer the troop was pretty much a one man show and we do pay for it a little right now. but, in a good way, I mean. The guy had a lot on his plate with a big family, his oldest did some stupid stuff and caused trouble, full time job etc, he ran the whole show, but sadly forgot to ask for help when he needed it. 

But I agree with you completely. In a time when values are cheap, these organizations set a higher standard to which the young people can grow! Expecting more from them makes them work harder and as far as I can tell, be happier, because they have achieved difficult things. 
In June we send 12 of our boys on to do a 50 mile trip: the first two days they hiked nearly 20 miles, the temperatures were in the mid 90s. The next to days they finished out the trip with two days of canoeing. 
All were hurt and tired. Not one quit, even when the opportunity presented itself at the evening of day 3 (day for was actually the fun part with only canoeing, and no work) and I think all grew a lot on this weekend!


(Greater Alabama, Choccolocco Council)


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## shesulsa

Steve said:


> I had some issues with the Girl Scouts.  It became clear pretty quickly that they, much like the komen foundation, are about generating revenue more than anything else.  I was the cookie "mom" for my daughter's brownie troop and will never buy another box of those cookies.



I have some very specific things to say about this - and thank you for posting it - but I will need more than a few minutes to reply, so ... I'll reply with my longer post later.  Given that it's cookie sale season, I invite you to write a letter to your local council about the GS charter and the profiteering from cookies.


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## pgsmith

> We are working a bit on the discipline side (works well when the new Scout Master and his wife are both high ranking sergeants in the Army )



  That does make a difference. I would break out the drill seargent voice every once in a while to get their attention.   Training is the real key though, in my opinion. The more training the leaders of your Troop have had, the better your Troop will run and the boys will get more out of it. Even the occassional campout driver should have at least the minimum training. The more people know what is expected, the better everything runs.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

pgsmith said:


> Training is the real key though, in my opinion. The more training the leaders of your Troop have had, the better your Troop will run and the boys will get more out of it. Even the occassional campout driver should have at least the minimum training. The more people know what is expected, the better everything runs.


Completely agree with this, and so does my troop. While I was still a scout, my scoutmaster and I worked together to convince the committee to use the treasury for the next years spl to go to the nylt campouts, and make it a rule that the spl has to participate in them if he wants to be the spl (this is more important to me as the scouts are the true leaders...or should be anyway). Similar thing with adults, where if they want to come to summer camp, they should do at least the ols and (obviously) the online youth protection training for any campout. So many improvements in the troop since that began.


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## granfire

pgsmith said:


> That does make a difference. I would break out the drill seargent voice every once in a while to get their attention.   Training is the real key though, in my opinion. The more training the leaders of your Troop have had, the better your Troop will run and the boys will get more out of it. Even the occassional campout driver should have at least the minimum training. The more people know what is expected, the better everything runs.



LOL, too funny:
Yell into a group of Scouts 'SIGNS UP' and all fall quiet! :lol:

Yes, training is key. 
We just started getting things going when the old Scout Master got transferred. The new guy has to start from scratch pretty much.


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## Bob Hubbard

I enjoyed my time in scouting, even allowing for that 1 winter camp out where all my clothes and sleeping bag ended up in the river.  And that time I lost knife privilages for going spear fishing in the pool. And that time I couldn't figure out owatagoofiam. Because the bug juice was great, the outdoors fun, and being able to swim, and shoot and camp was a ton of fun. It's a damn shame it's so political and exclusive these days. 

I can't help but wonder though, if a political discussion was the intent here, or if it was to see who else was involved and talk about the fun and positive parts of Scouting. The political parts probably are better suited for a Study discussion.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Bob Hubbard said:


> I enjoyed my time in scouting, even allowing for that 1 winter camp out where all my clothes and sleeping bag ended up in the river.  And that time I lost knife privilages for going spear fishing in the pool. And that time I couldn't figure out owatagoofiam. Because the bug juice was great, the outdoors fun, and being able to swim, and shoot and camp was a ton of fun. It's a damn shame it's so political and exclusive these days.
> 
> I can't help but wonder though, if a political discussion was the intent here, or if it was to see who else was involved and talk about the fun and positive parts of Scouting. The political parts probably are better suited for a Study discussion.


Haha, i had trouble figuring out owatagoosiam myself, took a couple hours, but I'm as stubborn as a mule sometimes. 
And there was NO political intent here, it was simply to see who is/was involved, what experiences they could share, and just have a nice enjoyable conversation about scouting. Obviously, that is not what happened...if i knew it would turn this way, i would have put it in the Study section, sorry :/


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## arnisador

Bob Hubbard said:


> I can't help but wonder though, if a political discussion was the intent here, or if it was to see who else was involved and talk about the fun and positive parts of Scouting. The political parts probably are better suited for a Study discussion.



I take it you're new here. I myself have been gone for a bit--what's the rule about "fun and positive parts" only? That's going to really hamper me in a few martial arts areas here--there are some I don't think so highly of.

For those for whom the answer to the OP's question is "No" or "Not any more", this could well be an aspect of it.


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## Tez3

Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts aren't the same organisation? Poor B-P must be spinning in his grave. Here, it's a charity. before anyone says anything, scouting was founded here by a Brit. What we have here is what the Founder intended. 
http://www.charityportal.org.uk/detail.php?id=100983

_"The Scout Association is one of the world's largest and most progressive youth movements. In the United Kingdom alone half a million young people between the ages of 6 and 20 experience the challenge, excitement, fun and friendship of the scouting programme. Scouting promotes physical, mental and spiritual development and teaches young people relevant skills and values to take a constructive place in society. The Scout Association is a non-political, multi-cultural, multi-faith organisation open to all irrespective of background. It is registered as an educational charity and is incorporated by Royal charter. Special emphasis is placed on developing the movement in the inner city and rural areas where the scouting programme is often most beneficial."


_kempodisciple, arnisador was being sarcastic...Bob Hubbard owns and runs the site.


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## jks9199

Folks,
The political and policy issues are important, and you're welcome to discuss them.  But they fit much better into The Study than here...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Tez3 said:


> kempodisciple, arnisador was being sarcastic...Bob Hubbard owns and runs the site.


I had a feeling but just the way arnisador said it was really bothering me, so I decided to take the sarcasm at face value.
EDIT:did not know he ran the site, just assumed that since hes been around since its beginning, there was almost no way arnisador was not being sarcastic and/or patronizing by saying that


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## shesulsa

My son started at Tiger Scout (1st grade) and the behavior of the adults in the troop at the pine box derby was so appalling we left before trophies could be awarded to the winners.  No other local troops were accepting new members ?!?!? for a long time or were owned by the LDS church (prolific in our area). We finally found one owned by the Fisher's Grange five years later.

I did push Jared to re-join and give it a year, knowing that this was a troop active and knowledgeable in outdoorsmanship and tied to a Venture crew.  He reluctantly agreed ... and he has been doing swimmingly every since.

He found, much to all our delight, that he LOVES hiking and wilderness survival. If you haven't heard much about hikers and climbers that go missing on Mt. St. Helens and Mt. Hood in the Pacific Northwest, you might be living under a rock. They often get caught in freak storms or fall down ravines or break limbs to the extent they need serious medical attention which can reach them in time only in very good weather.  Jared's troop was snowed on during a climb in July and one member of his troop hit a bump while glisading down, flew into the air and landed on head & shoulder, was knocked unconscious. He is fine, but it took 9 hours to get him down off the mountain in the wet snow.  

Jared is, thank the earth and heavens, a very sensible boy for his 13 years. He was able to discern what he was and was not comfortable with in climbing that day and combined with an assessment of his gear, decided not to climb where his troopmate had fallen from.  With his martial arts training, self-defense training and survival training, he is gaining a keen sense of danger, opportunity and safety precautions. 

Thank goodness this troop was open and accepted him.  I'm fairly certain he will earn Eagle in his own time and am more happy that he is finding himself and learning how to shape himself as a young man. Even if he never earns another merit badge or never advances again in rank, this has been and continues to be a most extraordinary opportunity for him.

As for the gay thing:  I applaud people who make decisions about support based on principle. I try to do this as often as possible.  For Jared, however, this has been so good for him and there is no mention of the homosexual thing in troop or at camp nor at all in relation to his BSA experience except for friends forced to quit because of their parent's principles.  As I said, I know he doesn't care and he believes no one else in his troop does either. The day will come when BSA will have to evolve one way or another and when they do, they will need scouts like Jared - leaders like him and his friends - to continue the meaningful traditions of scouting and help up and coming young men understand that "morally straight" has a deeper meaning that transcends sexuality and religion.

Change is often difficult - but usually more effectual from the inside out.


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## arnisador

kempodisciple said:


> EDIT:did not know he ran the site, just assumed that since hes been around since its beginning, there was almost no way arnisador was not being sarcastic and/or patronizing by saying that



*Bob Hubbard *and I are real-life friends. I was yanking his chain. He'll get me back when I'm in Buffalo next year.


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## Carol

I should have had kids.   I think I would have made a good scout parent.


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## Tez3

Carol said:


> I should have had kids. I think I would have made a good scout parent.



I've been involved in Scouting and Guiding on and off depending on life circumstances for 50 years now. I started as a Brownie aged 7, became a Guide then later on became a Cub Scout leader and a Brownie leader (Akela and Tawny Owl respectively). Next year following redundancy/retirement I'll probably go back to one or the other.


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## shesulsa

Steve said:


> I had some issues with the Girl Scouts.  It became clear pretty quickly that they, much like the komen foundation, are about generating revenue more than anything else.  I was the cookie "mom" for my daughter's brownie troop and will never buy another box of those cookies.



As Tez3 has pointed in the direction of Sir Baden-Powell, I will also point in that direction to a young woman who was inspired by him and his wife Lady Baden-Powell's venture into Girl Guiding.  Juliette Gordon Lowe was interested in learning all things generally considered feminine AND masculine, believing that women's thorough understanding of outdoorsmanship, first aid, construction, woodwork, stonework and weaponry were just as important as the thorough understanding of cooking, cleaning, rearing children, cleaning, sewing for the frontier woman and the ladies who insisted on mentoring young women here.

The Girl Scout experience - at least in this area - has evolved into a club where girls spend much time in volunteerism, fundraising for trips and education.  We have no rank now, but age group-based designations.  We do have the opportunity to earn badges and awards, but the Girl Scout charter is not designed to serve the girls well.

For instance - Girl Scout cookies last fall were $4.50 per box.  Troops selling these cookies receive approximately 65 cents for each box sold.  Juliettes (girls without troop) earn 75 cents, I believe.  Girls can only hold one more troop-based fundraiser for general activities per year and they must spend all the money they earn the same year they earn it unless they are saving for a designated trip which must be planned with the council TWO-THREE YEARS in advance.  Only if they have a designated activity for which they must raise a lot of money, they can only raise funds 2x per year.

By contrast, Boy Scouts can raise funds whenever they please. They can craft items to be sold at almost any meeting or activity. The funds go into their Scout Account and the cost of camping or hiking trips comes out of that.  If there is money left over in their account once they age out, THEY GET TO KEEP THE MONEY.

Training for Girl Scouts in this area is the most piss-poor thing I think I've ever seen.  At "Advanced Camping Skills" training, one instructor couldn't even put up a tent. Only one leader had experience with lashing and only because she was exposed to BSA training. And don't get me started on how we were taught to "safely" carry an axe and mechete.

When we were on the Neighborhood governance system, we were extremely fortunate to have a few leaders who were not only active in Boy Scouts for their sons but whose husbands were Scoutmasters. We received the opportunity to stay at Camp Merriwether near Tillamook, Oregon where they have two archery ranges, a black powder range, a .22 range amongst others.  You would not believe the hoops we had to jump through to allow 14 year-old girls and up the opportunity to fire black powder rifles let alone go at all.  The politics behind this were just unbelievable.  Amazingly, our council was far more ready to allow young girls the chance at archery claiming it to be much safer than guns.  *sigh*  We were able to do this only twice.  The third year, we were shut down from attending *any* BSA camp where shooting ranges of any kind exist and shooting guns became a forbidden GS activity.

I co-chaired the neighborhood for two years right before we changed to the Vista/Service Unit model.  

The Girl Scout promo line is "For Every Girl, Every Where" and while we still have "G-d" in the promise, it is made very clear that those objecting to the term may simply eliminate it.  The organization, to their credit, has made a point of welcoming LBGQTA youth of all religious persuasions including Muslims.  Many of the programs they have in place are designed for self-discovery and for understanding, tolerance and benevolence.

That said ... the ever-changing curriculum leaves a proving ground with few traditions, few incentives and a largely traditional-feminine resource base.  I rejoiced in hearing young girls protest to the things they had to do as opposed to things their little brothers were doing that they couldn't and tired of hearing excuses as to why young girls shouldn't need to learn such things. 

The women in our area are just not extensively trained in the things girls like my daughter wanted to do and there is no training module for these skills except in Boy Scouting. While some older leaders will encourage this, the council does not.

I buy cookies or donate the cost of a box for each girl scout who asks me simply because I know it is one of only two ways she can earn funds to accomplish damn near anything in her experience and with the hope that she might be able to effectuate progress as well.

In the meantime, GSUSA is wasting money by chasing new membership instead of fostering its existing membership in more progressive ways. Perhaps by the time I have a great-granddaughter the organization will be more worthy of time and financial investments.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

arnisador said:


> *Bob Hubbard *and I are real-life friends. I was yanking his chain. He'll get me back when I'm in Buffalo next year.


Did not know that, sorry for taking it out of context.


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## Makalakumu

My mother was a cub scout leader for all five of her sons.  I went on to become a Boy Scout and stayed with it until I turned 18 and became an assistant scoutmaster for our troop.  Our troop was great!  We took all kinds of adventures all over the country in many, varied, wilderness settings.  I got to see so many interesting things in North America and traveled so much with our troop....we even had our own broken down beat up bus that we were constantly working on.  We tore the back seats out and used the back to bring all of our gear.  All of the boys helped with maintenance.  I pushed myself physically, mentally, and emotionally in scouting and I truly credit it for helping me become the man I am today.

I describe my troop to other scouts and have discovered that my experience may have been unique.  Not many people can point to a truly exceptional scouting experience.  Typically, scouts go on a few outings, get some merit badges and advance in rank, but they lack the true sense of adventure that we had.  I have so many crazy stories from my scouting experience that it's hard to relate.  My son is in Cub Scouts now and I'm surprised at how little the other people in the pack actually know how to do.  These are guys who have been involved in scouting for a long time.  At our recent pack gathering, I taught the boys some basic firebuilding and the dads were being shown something they haven't seen before.  

The religious issues don't bother me as much as the general degradation of the experience the boys are having today.  I'm involved in my pack and I'm willing to do something exceptional, but I can't do it myself.  I need skilled partners, who are physically fit, and able to safely carry out adventures that Scouting can provide.  Sadly, that's getting harder and harder to find.  

Recently, a colleague of mine told me that he backpacked the rim of Haleakala in scouts when he was 12 years old.  So, I know exceptional troops are out there still...


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## shesulsa

John, do you think there's a hope of changing this?

I really think the best way is to get parents out with their kids and learning things hands-on as well as formal "scout-way" training. It's discouraging, however, that most parents see scout meetings much like they see Karatay Klass - a place to drop off their kid while they go buy a latte.


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## Steve

shesulsa said:


> As Tez3 has pointed in the direction of Sir Baden-Powell, I will also point in that direction to a young woman who was inspired by him and his wife Lady Baden-Powell's venture into Girl Guiding.  Juliette Gordon Lowe was interested in learning all things generally considered feminine AND masculine, believing that women's thorough understanding of outdoorsmanship, first aid, construction, woodwork, stonework and weaponry were just as important as the thorough understanding of cooking, cleaning, rearing children, cleaning, sewing for the frontier woman and the ladies who insisted on mentoring young women here.
> 
> The Girl Scout experience - at least in this area - has evolved into a club where girls spend much time in volunteerism, fundraising for trips and education.  We have no rank now, but age group-based designations.  We do have the opportunity to earn badges and awards, but the Girl Scout charter is not designed to serve the girls well.
> 
> For instance - Girl Scout cookies last fall were $4.50 per box.  Troops selling these cookies receive approximately 65 cents for each box sold.  Juliettes (girls without troop) earn 75 cents, I believe.  Girls can only hold one more troop-based fundraiser for general activities per year and they must spend all the money they earn the same year they earn it unless they are saving for a designated trip which must be planned with the council TWO-THREE YEARS in advance.  Only if they have a designated activity for which they must raise a lot of money, they can only raise funds 2x per year.
> 
> By contrast, Boy Scouts can raise funds whenever they please. They can craft items to be sold at almost any meeting or activity. The funds go into their Scout Account and the cost of camping or hiking trips comes out of that.  If there is money left over in their account once they age out, THEY GET TO KEEP THE MONEY.
> 
> Training for Girl Scouts in this area is the most piss-poor thing I think I've ever seen.  At "Advanced Camping Skills" training, one instructor couldn't even put up a tent. Only one leader had experience with lashing and only because she was exposed to BSA training. And don't get me started on how we were taught to "safely" carry an axe and mechete.
> 
> When we were on the Neighborhood governance system, we were extremely fortunate to have a few leaders who were not only active in Boy Scouts for their sons but whose husbands were Scoutmasters. We received the opportunity to stay at Camp Merriwether near Tillamook, Oregon where they have two archery ranges, a black powder range, a .22 range amongst others.  You would not believe the hoops we had to jump through to allow 14 year-old girls and up the opportunity to fire black powder rifles let alone go at all.  The politics behind this were just unbelievable.  Amazingly, our council was far more ready to allow young girls the chance at archery claiming it to be much safer than guns.  *sigh*  We were able to do this only twice.  The third year, we were shut down from attending *any* BSA camp where shooting ranges of any kind exist and shooting guns became a forbidden GS activity.
> 
> I co-chaired the neighborhood for two years right before we changed to the Vista/Service Unit model.
> 
> The Girl Scout promo line is "For Every Girl, Every Where" and while we still have "G-d" in the promise, it is made very clear that those objecting to the term may simply eliminate it.  The organization, to their credit, has made a point of welcoming LBGQTA youth of all religious persuasions including Muslims.  Many of the programs they have in place are designed for self-discovery and for understanding, tolerance and benevolence.
> 
> That said ... the ever-changing curriculum leaves a proving ground with few traditions, few incentives and a largely traditional-feminine resource base.  I rejoiced in hearing young girls protest to the things they had to do as opposed to things their little brothers were doing that they couldn't and tired of hearing excuses as to why young girls shouldn't need to learn such things.
> 
> The women in our area are just not extensively trained in the things girls like my daughter wanted to do and there is no training module for these skills except in Boy Scouting. While some older leaders will encourage this, the council does not.
> 
> I buy cookies or donate the cost of a box for each girl scout who asks me simply because I know it is one of only two ways she can earn funds to accomplish damn near anything in her experience and with the hope that she might be able to effectuate progress as well.
> 
> In the meantime, GSUSA is wasting money by chasing new membership instead of fostering its existing membership in more progressive ways. Perhaps by the time I have a great-granddaughter the organization will be more worthy of time and financial investments.


I don't know much about the girls scouts as an organization.  My daughter was a brownie and chose to do it for only two years.  I did, however, learn a little too much about the cookie drives, and have several problems with them.

First, I have a real problem with any of these fundraisers where a business makes a profit by turning our kids into a salesperson.  Whether it's the girls scouts and their cookies, or the football team and candy bars, candles or Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, you don't get to use my son or daughter as a sale person.  I don't want my kids to learn how to be used car salesmen, and if they do sell something, it won't be for a corporation... at least not unless they're being paid a salary and a commission and are old enough to know what that means.

Second, the girl scouts bank on the idea that the money goes to the troop for scout activities.  In reality, there are absolutely no guidelines on what a troop can choose to do with the money.  None.  It's literally a free for all.  

Third, the troop itself gets only a fraction of the money.  $.65 or $.70 per box sold is consistent with what I remember.  The bulk of the money goes to people outside the troop, including a significant chunk to the bakery that sells the cookies to the girls scouts.

Fourth, the troop can lose money if they don't sell the boxes of cookies that they take.  It's one of these deals where you have to guess how many you're going to sell, and you have limited opportunity to turn them back in.  So, if you say your cute little girls are going to sell 100 boxes and you take them, you could very well be on the hook for that entire amount, even if your cute little girl only sells 10.  

Finally, the entire competitive, super aggressive attitude that surrounds the cookie sales, including parents who are setting up websites, squabbling over the premium time slots and locations was just awful.

To be clear, the experience as the "cookie mom" left a sour taste in my mouth, but I didn't decide to stop buying the cookies right away.  My daughters troop decided to spend their money on a trip to Build a Bear.  What I thought was a total waste of money.  So I started asking the girls selling the cookies what they were collecting money for (and I'd encourage you guys to do the same.)

I've not once heard something related to self development, education or anything like that.  Not even a camping trip.


----------



## Makalakumu

shesulsa said:


> John, do you think there's a hope of changing this?
> 
> I really think the best way is to get parents out with their kids and learning things hands-on as well as formal "scout-way" training. It's discouraging, however, that most parents see scout meetings much like they see Karatay Klass - a place to drop off their kid while they go buy a latte.



I'm not sure how to change it for everyone.  My plan is to try and draw a crew of committed adults (or train them) and try to create something exceptional.  I know that in that small way, I can make a difference to a group of boys.  I don't mind the "formal training" but I don't want it to be the focus of my son's experience.  To me, the formal training is an outgrowth of the experience.  It's something that should occur naturally from experience and NOT be the point of the meeting.  Heck, the meeting itself can change forms if people are creative.

In my troop, one of the dads owned a bowling alley next to the Mississippi River.  Behind his business, there was an oxbow lake with an island in it.  The island was undeveloped and close to shore.  Our scout leader got the idea to start having our meetings out there, so we moved our troop out of the church basement.  The adults and boys figured out how to build a bridge out to the island and then we cleared a bunch of trails.  We made some campsites and meeting areas and constructed all kinds of scout craft out there.  Eventually, it was the SPL and ASPLs responsibility to show up early and make sure we had firewood before we went and make sure the meeting could be held out there.  The only time we didn't meet out there was when it was too damn cold...it's Minnesota, that happens.  But I remember everyone showing up to the meetings on the islands.  Adults, boys, whole families, there was none of the drop off and grab a coffee crap.


----------



## Makalakumu

Steve said:


> I don't know much about the girls scouts as an organization.  My daughter was a brownie and chose to do it for only two years.  I did, however, learn a little too much about the cookie drives, and have several problems with them.
> 
> First, I have a real problem with any of these fundraisers where a business makes a profit by turning our kids into a salesperson.  Whether it's the girls scouts and their cookies, or the football team and candy bars, candles or Otis Spunkmeyer cookies, you don't get to use my son or daughter as a sale person.  I don't want my kids to learn how to be used car salesmen, and if they do sell something, it won't be for a corporation... at least not unless they're being paid a salary and a commission and are old enough to know what that means.
> 
> Second, the girl scouts bank on the idea that the money goes to the troop for scout activities.  In reality, there are absolutely no guidelines on what a troop can choose to do with the money.  None.  It's literally a free for all.
> 
> Third, the troop itself gets only a fraction of the money.  $.65 or $.70 per box sold is consistent with what I remember.  The bulk of the money goes to people outside the troop, including a significant chunk to the bakery that sells the cookies to the girls scouts.
> 
> Fourth, the troop can lose money if they don't sell the boxes of cookies that they take.  It's one of these deals where you have to guess how many you're going to sell, and you have limited opportunity to turn them back in.  So, if you say your cute little girls are going to sell 100 boxes and you take them, you could very well be on the hook for that entire amount, even if your cute little girl only sells 10.
> 
> Finally, the entire competitive, super aggressive attitude that surrounds the cookie sales, including parents who are setting up websites, squabbling over the premium time slots and locations was just awful.
> 
> To be clear, the experience as the "cookie mom" left a sour taste in my mouth, but I didn't decide to stop buying the cookies right away.  My daughters troop decided to spend their money on a trip to Build a Bear.  What I thought was a total waste of money.  So I started asking the girls selling the cookies what they were collecting money for (and I'd encourage you guys to do the same.)
> 
> I've not once heard something related to self development, education or anything like that.  Not even a camping trip.



This was my experience with Girl Scouts as well.  I feel totally helpless here.  My daughter deserves better, but I don't know how to deliver...within this organization.


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## rlobrecht

My son joined as a Tiger, and is now a Second Class Boy Scout.  I was Committee Secretary, Den Leader, and Committee Chair through his Cub years, and am currently Assistant Scoutmaster in his Troop.

I was a Scout as a kid, quitting at 16 as a Life Scout.  Eagle Scout didn't seem so important at the time, but I've regretted it since.

Despite the National policy, the attitude is largely about the local leadership.  My son's Cub Pack had an openly (female) gay couple with a son in the Pack.  There was none of the homophobia that I've read about in the news.

Despite our current Troop being affiliated with a Methodist Church, our only religious involvement is grace at meals, and occasionally a quick non-denominational prayer.  We also once a year attend service at the Church in our Scout uniforms.


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## Tez3

Has anyone been to any of the International Jamborees? Perhaps making connections to Scouts and Guides in other countries would be a way to connect with the original ethos of Scouting? 
The Scout Association here has a large amount of resources for use by any Scout leader, endorsed by the World Scout Conference http://scout.org/en/information_events/library
this is the Inter America section.
http://scout.org/en/around_the_world/interamerica

Scouts are really an international organisation not just a national one or one belonging to one religion or faith, it belongs to the world. Do your Scouts feel this or do they feel they are in isolation? http://scout.org/en/about_scouting
This is something your Scouts might want to consider  http://scout.org/en/information_events/events/world_scout_events/moot/14th_world_scout_moot

This might help too http://scout.org/en/about_scouting/global_support


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## Carol

Tez3 said:


> I've been involved in Scouting and Guiding on and off depending on life circumstances for 50 years now. I started as a Brownie aged 7, became a Guide then later on became a Cub Scout leader and a Brownie leader (Akela and Tawny Owl respectively). Next year following redundancy/retirement I'll probably go back to one or the other.



It's something I have looked at very seriously, even though my own experience in the Girl Scouts was not very good.  One of my passions is getting girls interested in STEM  concentrations (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) and the Girl Scouts offers an avenue for that...I even played a small role in bringing a science program to a GS camp locally.

Here, there is little outdoorsy stuff for the girls to do, rather shocking when you consider that our council encompasses VT and NH....two rural states with a rich outdoor culture, so much so that it is even reflected in the council name....GSGWM, for Girl Scouts, Green (Vermont) and White (New Hampshire) Mountains.

I find training girls to fit the women-as-decoration stereotype to be a bit horrifying, yet this is exactly what some of their volunteering projects are doing.  For an ultra endurance event, GSGWM is volunteering.   Are the girls going to be taking on new physical challenges to see how they can push themselves?  No, they will be decorating aid stations with instructions to be perky.   At least with cookie sales, the girls get insight in to actual business processes of estimation, territory, follow up, and fulfillment.

Unless my personal life changes significantly, I doubt I will ever be involved in scouting.  Generally speaking I am not welcome with the Boy Scouts as I don't have a son.   I'm not willing to join the Girl Scouts because a few hours of rudimentary robotics classes is not worth a year of grooming girls for little more than "service with a smile".

Although I picked up on Owatagoosiam right away when I was a wee kitten 

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## granfire

Carol said:


> It's something I have looked at very seriously, even though my own experience in the Girl Scouts was not very good.  One of my passions is getting girls interested in STEM  concentrations (Science, Technology, Engineering, Mathematics) and the Girl Scouts offers an avenue for that...I even played a small role in bringing a science program to a GS camp locally.
> 
> Here, there is little outdoorsy stuff for the girls to do, rather shocking when you consider that our council encompasses VT and NH....two rural states with a rich outdoor culture, so much so that it is even reflected in the council name....GSGWM, for Girl Scouts, Green (Vermont) and White (New Hampshire) Mountains.
> 
> I find training girls to fit the women-as-decoration stereotype to be a bit horrifying, yet this is exactly what some of their volunteering projects are doing.  For an ultra endurance event, GSGWM is volunteering.   Are the girls going to be taking on new physical challenges to see how they can push themselves?  No, they will be decorating aid stations with instructions to be perky.   At least with cookie sales, the girls get insight in to actual business processes of estimation, territory, follow up, and fulfillment.
> 
> Unless my personal life changes significantly, I doubt I will ever be involved in scouting.  Generally speaking I am not welcome with the Boy Scouts as I don't have a son.   I'm not willing to join the Girl Scouts because a few hours of rudimentary robotics classes is not worth a year of grooming girls for little more than "service with a smile".
> 
> Although I picked up on Owatagoosiam right away when I was a wee kitten
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD




Did the boy scouts tell you you are not welcome?
Maybe your local chapters are well stocked with volunteers. I know ours would never send one away (who passed the background check )
There are a lot of female leaders in the organization (to the point that they have a female uniform), the office has many female employees. 

Granted, most start out as moms, but many times the guys grow up and out of it, mom stays on.


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts aren't the same organisation? Poor B-P must be spinning in his grave. Here, it's a charity. before anyone says anything, scouting was founded here by a Brit. What we have here is what the Founder intended.
> http://www.charityportal.org.uk/detail.php?id=100983
> 
> _"The Scout Association is one of the world's largest and most progressive youth movements. In the United Kingdom alone half a million young people between the ages of 6 and 20 experience the challenge, excitement, fun and friendship of the scouting programme. Scouting promotes physical, mental and spiritual development and teaches young people relevant skills and values to take a constructive place in society. The Scout Association is a non-political, multi-cultural, multi-faith organisation open to all irrespective of background. It is registered as an educational charity and is incorporated by Royal charter. Special emphasis is placed on developing the movement in the inner city and rural areas where the scouting programme is often most beneficial."
> 
> 
> _




well, they are different by having programs tailored to the age group (6 through 10 and hen 11 to 18) 

The Cubs are much more family oriented and the participation of the parents is a must. 

I think it's a good deal. The kids get introduced to scouting in a safe situation and get gradually pushed out of their comfort zone. 
Then, when they completed the Cub program there is a big ceremony and the kid is crossing over, (literally, over a bridge) to be welcomed by the Scout Master of the troop. 

The principles are the same. It's just for the younger child.


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## Tez3

To be honest I've never found little boys of the 6-11 age group wanting to be in a comfort zone, far from it, they are the ones that need channelling into learning how to light fires safely, how to build dens in appropriate places and how to do 'dangerous' things in a safe way, they only go off and do it themselves otherwise. They really don't want their parents involved in the things they do. They go off to camp, sleep in tents, do all sorts of things including using knives btw, come back hugely tired and usually unwashed, the grins on their faces is worth all the leaders hard work. The group that they go to before Cubs is Beavers where the activities are less hectic but are still designed to be exciting. B-Ps guildelines are very much followed.

Guides are even more robust which I love, when they camp they still make their own 'camp gadgets' from wood, outdoor activities are very much to the fore, Guide philosophy is very much to train the complete girl to can turn her hand to anything, wherever she is and yes I admit all these years later I'm still influenced by the 'Be Prepared' motto, certainly the training in self sufficiency and the 'I can do this' attitude has stuck with me.   
When Scouts and Guides are a bit older they usually also go for the Duke of Edinburgh awards, they are for anyone to do, no restrictions.

Guide badges  http://www.girlguiding.org.uk/guides/gfibadge/badges/index.html

http://dofe.org/


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## granfire

Maybe it's the parent's comfort zone then. 

But that age group, I don't know if I want a bunch of them on a camping outing.
But the trips we took with them where pretty good. A good way to connect with the other parents, which is a bit of a problem when the kids are older and just jump out of the car for meetings. 

While I do have a hands off approach to most things in the group (boys need to do stuff without mom) the troop cannot run without parental help. 
And I enjoy just pointing at stuff that needs to be done and it gets done (unlike at home...)


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## Carol

granfire said:


> Did the boy scouts tell you you are not welcome?
> Maybe your local chapters are well stocked with volunteers. I know ours would never send one away (who passed the background check )
> There are a lot of female leaders in the organization (to the point that they have a female uniform), the office has many female employees.
> 
> Granted, most start out as moms, but many times the guys grow up and out of it, mom stays on.



Was I told specifically no, but most of the digging I was doing was online, where I saw a lot of "boys and parents welcome" verbiage.  I totally get the background check, but if the expectations are that the vols are parents, I've certainly seen in the past that trying to inject myself in to such a situation is not a whole lot of fun.  However, I didn't speak directly with a scoutmaster....perhaps I should have.


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## granfire

Carol said:


> Was I told specifically no, but most of the digging I was doing was online, where I saw a lot of "boys and parents welcome" verbiage.  I totally get the background check, but if the expectations are that the vols are parents, I've certainly seen in the past that trying to inject myself in to such a situation is not a whole lot of fun.  However, I didn't speak directly with a scoutmaster....perhaps I should have.



Like many places, it's on the ground level where the help is needed.
We have several comity members who are no longer parents of scouts for various reasons, but stayed on. 
We had a Merit Badge Fair where we looked high and low for people qualified to teach certain subjects. The closest ones where a good 60 miles away. 

But I would certainly suggest to see if a local troop is interested. Of course much of how that works is again the chemistry of the troop. 

Considering that the Scouts offer 'Nuclear Science' as merit badge, I am sure science geeks are always welcome!


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## Tez3

granfire said:


> Maybe it's the parent's comfort zone then.
> 
> But that age group, I don't know if I want a bunch of them on a camping outing.
> But the trips we took with them where pretty good. A good way to connect with the other parents, which is a bit of a problem when the kids are older and just jump out of the car for meetings.
> 
> While I do have a hands off approach to most things in the group (boys need to do stuff without mom) the troop cannot run without parental help.
> And I enjoy just pointing at stuff that needs to be done and it gets done (unlike at home...)




Cub camps are brilliant fun for everyone, I'd recommend them. I've done several, loved every minute even when the weather was bad or we got bitten by mosquitos in Germany (something about them German mossies lol. We didn't take the kids abroad it was an RAF pack). it just surprises me that Americans are very vocal about self sufficiency but make scouting a parental thing, it was never designed to be. There's plenty of help with the pack leaders going ( they have to do courses with the Scout Assoc. before taking anyone camping) leaders are male and female, there'll be Scouts to help as well. Parents may do the transport but don't have a lot to do with the camp. It's easier that way, anyone working with children needs to be CRB checked here and Scout leaders need to be trained, there's regular courses to be done. It is a volunteer postition but taken very seriously and taken as professionally as possible.


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> Cub camps are brilliant fun for everyone, I'd recommend them. I've done several, loved every minute even when the weather was bad or we got bitten by mosquitos in Germany (something about them German mossies lol. We didn't take the kids abroad it was an RAF pack). it just surprises me that Americans are very vocal about self sufficiency but make scouting a parental thing, it was never designed to be. There's plenty of help with the pack leaders going ( they have to do courses with the Scout Assoc. before taking anyone camping) leaders are male and female, there'll be Scouts to help as well. Parents may do the transport but don't have a lot to do with the camp. It's easier that way, anyone working with children needs to be CRB checked here and Scout leaders need to be trained, there's regular courses to be done. It is a volunteer postition but taken very seriously and taken as professionally as possible.



I am guessing it is still a bit of a back lash from all the bad stuff that happened.

Also, much of our society has become urbanized. Even in my small town you find that too many people depend on takeout or delivery for food...or sew or crochet or knit. all around sad.
The constant need to be connected does not help: iPhones are the death of outings like that.

(on a side note, it amazes me how naive kids are these days. I think I was more clever when I was their age, even though I lived a sheltered life and had to rely on encyclopedia for knowledge, not having google at my finger tips.)


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## Tez3

granfire said:


> *I am guessing it is still a bit of a back lash from all the bad stuff that happened.*
> 
> Also, much of our society has become urbanized. Even in my small town you find that too many people depend on takeout or delivery for food...or sew or crochet or knit. all around sad.
> The constant need to be connected does not help: iPhones are the death of outings like that.
> 
> (on a side note, it amazes me how naive kids are these days. I think I was more clever when I was their age, even though I lived a sheltered life and had to rely on encyclopedia for knowledge, not having google at my finger tips.)



That doesn't sound good?

thought people might enjoy this, I love the lassie in the red with the plaits!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ipm5BKQx7Qw&feature=related


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## Carol

granfire said:


> Like many places, it's on the ground level where the help is needed.
> We have several comity members who are no longer parents of scouts for various reasons, but stayed on.
> We had a Merit Badge Fair where we looked high and low for people qualified to teach certain subjects. The closest ones where a good 60 miles away.
> 
> But I would certainly suggest to see if a local troop is interested. Of course much of how that works is again the chemistry of the troop.
> 
> Considering that the Scouts offer 'Nuclear Science' as merit badge, I am sure science geeks are always welcome!



Actually someone messages me offline and suggested that I consider asking about a merit badge counselor position, or working specifically with a coed group....to be honest that appeals to me a lot.  I really wish more scouting here was coed....seems bloody ridiculous in my eyes to have to choose between working with young men or young women.  What's wrong with wanting to work with both? :idunno:

I am a volunteer with the Appalachian Mountain Club now, and they also have some neat programs for people of all ages.  They are open to folks of all backgrounds as long as a person meets some basic requirements, be it passing a background check when needed or showing basic physical and mental competency.  As a bonus, the AMC will feed, and even lodge, the volunteers...depending on assignment. 

The advantage to scouting is that when you works with a local troop, you are making a difference in your own community, whereas with the AMC, my volunteering usually involves gathering at one of their lodges in the mountains...or in some cases, going to their headquarters in *shudder* downtown Boston.  Meaning:  a day of volunteering = allocating 3-4 hours just for the round trip commute plus ~$40 for gas, parking, rapid transit...whichever is applicable. 

This winter I hope to be working with the adaptive ski program at Bretton Woods, which is an idea that dates back to the WWII era.  Injured/disabled veterans returned from their time in theatre and taught themselves to ski all over again, the adaptive ski program teaches disabled athletes to ski...or in the case of the severely disabled, gives them a chance to ski with special equipment navigated by the instructors.

I think being outside and adventuring is like nothing else...and introducing someone to this life can change their life forever...in a positive way.  Scouting is one way to do this.   But, it is not the only way!   I didn't let my own concerns or disagreements stop me from reaching out and volunteering and I hope it does not stop anyone else.  :asian:


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


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## granfire

After having seen how the hormones can get the better of a bunch of 15/16 yo boys....coed is not all that it's cracked up to be. 
seriously, from the age of - hmm - 12 on, segregation is not a bad thing. 

But you go, Girl! 
(did I mention: if you were closer I am sure we'd love to have you!)


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## Tez3

I think it's good to have the choice, here girls can go into Cubs and Scouts or they can go into the Guides which is single sex. It seems to suit people that they can choose.


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## Dirty Dog

granfire said:


> After having seen how the hormones can get the better of a bunch of 15/16 yo boys....coed is not all that it's cracked up to be.
> seriously, from the age of - hmm - 12 on, segregation is not a bad thing.
> 
> But you go, Girl!
> (did I mention: if you were closer I am sure we'd love to have you!)



Puberty ought to be recognised as a form of insanity.


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## pgsmith

Carol,
  The coed portion of Scouting is Venturing. Venture crews are 14-20, male or female. Venturing is more difficult than Boy Scouts as the crew is expected to do more of the work with less assistance, and the primary focus is high adventure outings rather than simple camp outs. It's also much harder to get properly trained adults as the number of adults that are willing to be advisors only, and also go on high adventure outings, is very limited. Here's a link for those curious ... http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Venturing.aspx


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## Makalakumu

Tez3 said:


> I think it's good to have the choice, here girls can go into Cubs and Scouts or they can go into the Guides which is single sex. It seems to suit people that they can choose.



A long time ago at a scout camp, I met a scout from Germany who told me that Scouting was not single gender in his country.  From what I'm hearing you say this isn't really the case or maybe he was talking about Guiding? What is the real story, from your perspective?


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## Bob Hubbard

At one of our summer camps, one of the senior members of the troop was caught in his tent with the rangers daughter. Also of note was the poison ivy a little past his tent, where the 2 of them ran through after being caught.  The remainder of the camp was uncomfortable for them both, for several reasons.


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## Tez3

Makalakumu said:


> A long time ago at a scout camp, I met a scout from Germany who told me that Scouting was not single gender in his country. From what I'm hearing you say this isn't really the case or maybe he was talking about Guiding? What is the real story, from your perspective?



I don't know anything about scouting in Germany. When I lived there it was as part of British Forces Germany (BFG), the Cubs we had were British and in British Scouting.


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## Makalakumu

Tez3 said:


> I don't know anything about scouting in Germany. When I lived there it was as part of British Forces Germany (BFG), the Cubs we had were British and in British Scouting.



I'm asking because I may have the opportunity to move to Germany because of my job and I really hope that both my son and daughter could do Scouting together. Thanks for your perspective.


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## granfire

Makalakumu said:


> I'm asking because I may have the opportunity to move to Germany because of my job and I really hope that both my son and daughter could do Scouting together. Thanks for your perspective.



You'd be looking for Pfadfinder. I was wondering, too about it in case we would have to move.
But I was hoping we would be able to go yo one on post (but I doubt it)


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## Tez3

You would be very welcome to join British Scouting ( or Guiding if you have girls and want a single sex group). http://scouts.org.uk/supportresources/3227/british-scouts-western-europe?cat=52,206&moduleID=10 As I remember some of the Scout Groups had Americans in, and though I may be wrong I'm sure the Aemrican forces in Germany also have their own groups etc.


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## Bob Hubbard

Some years back, my nephew was involved, briefly, with cub scouts. They were short on escorts for a weekend camp out, so I got 'volunteered' to go.  The troop has their own private camp grounds, usually used by the scout troop during the summer, with the cubs getting the fall session. This particular weekend was cold, frosty and quite wet.  Fire went out in the cabin in the middle of the night, so everyone was quite chilled come morning.  I found a well worn copy of Hustler in the outhouse, which being a responsible adult in a camp full of kids I made sure found it's way to a more useful and kid-friendly place. Namely the bonfire.  
Was a fun weekend. The kids hiked, fished, hiked some more, had a bunch of different things going on.


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## shesulsa

Last night we saw a newsbyte related to the detriment of technology-based entertainment made easily available to children as opposed to the benefits of them getting outside.

Jared skipped! across the room and said, "which is why I want to thank you guys for creating the opportunity for me to do so!"  He then plopped down next to me, put his arms around me, squeezed and gave me a peck on the cheek. 

His birthday is in 26 days. He must want a guille suit.

Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2


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## granfire

shesulsa said:


> Last night we saw a newsbyte related to the detriment of technology-based entertainment made easily available to children as opposed to the benefits of them getting outside.
> 
> Jared skipped! across the room and said, "which is why I want to thank you guys for creating the opportunity for me to do so!"  He then plopped down next to me, put his arms around me, squeezed and gave me a peck on the cheek.
> 
> His birthday is in 26 days. He must want a guille suit.
> 
> Sent from my MB886 using Tapatalk 2



hahahaha, some major kissing up gong on right there! :lol:

Yeah, sometimes as a parent you gotta make them do stuff (at least in my case....)
because it is sometimes - especially for those who don't have to share - a rough road in a group like that. 

(In the beginning my kid bitterly complained about being told all the time what to do...did not want to go back. Since then he has been elected quartermaster...)


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> I assume your Eagle Scouts like our Queen's Scouts and Guides aren't young teens but are older more like young adults than kids so the chances of them having girlfriends and boyfriends are high. In that case it's very likely that while they may not have talked about their sexuality to Scouting authorities it's public knowledge in their communities.



well, as the OP or somebody stated, their boy is one step away from Eagle at age 13. (which is AMAZING. Our old scout master had to work hard when he joined the scouts at age 16 to make it before 18)

the age the boys can join is 10 1/2 years until 18. After 18 they have to assume a leadership position to stay on. 

but Eagle is a rank, not an age requirement as far as I know. 


I don't agree with the gay policy.
And this is the exact case why! I know enough hetero people who lack decency and moral fiber to be counted as human being, so far non of the gay people I have met were anything but nice people. Damaged, maybe, from the stigma society has put on them, causing them to engage ins self destructive behavior. 
Seems to me this young man has a leg up on the competition, whether or not he got the badge to hang on a sash or not.


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## Tames D

I've found that the Boy Scouts opens alot of doors that would normally be closed to a young teen. We (my sons and I) have recently met with our Congressman and Mayor and have a meeting scheduled with the Governor. Local businesses are happy to donate money and supplies to help these kids. I think it is a good organization. My kids have grown to be incredible individuals through this organization. They don't know about these gay and religious issues. Too bad it is an issue.


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## seasoned

Late to the party, but a story to tell. When my son was 7 years old we wanted to involve him in something that would enforce some of the same values that were taught at home. This was back in 1991 when he was 7 years old and we figured cub scouts would be a great start and a lead in to the boy scouts. There was a group in our neighborhood that would meet a few times a week and was held at a house. Sadly my son was only involved a short time because his first few times there he came home smelling like smoke. When I investigated further, it turns out the cub master openly smoked, in her own home, but still smoked during meetings. 
Sadly that cub scout uniform hung in his closet for months after we pulled him out of cub scouts. Right or wrong on our part, we made a decision to discontinue his involvement.
Soon after that we replaced his cub scout uniform with a karate gi and for the next 15 years he studied MA until he traded that uniform for one that represented the US Army, and he is now a Captain proudly serving our country.  
Now, this in no way reflects any bad press towards the boy scouts of america, as far as we are concerned, and I do feel that under other circumstances things may have turned out better, but, that was not the case here....


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## Tames D

seasoned said:


> Late to the party, but a story to tell. When my son was 7 years old we wanted to involve him in something that would enforce some of the same values that were taught at home. This was back in 1991 when he was 7 years old and we figured cub scouts would be a great start and a lead in to the boy scouts. There was a group in our neighborhood that would meet a few times a week and was held at a house. Sadly my son was only involved a short time because his first few times there he came home smelling like smoke. When I investigated further, it turns out the cub master openly smoked, in her own home, but still smoked during meetings.
> Sadly that cub scout uniform hung in his closet for months after we pulled him out of cub scouts. Right or wrong on our part, we made a decision to discontinue his involvement.
> Soon after that we replaced his cub scout uniform with a karate gi and for the next 15 years he studied MA until he traded that uniform for one that represented the US Army, and he is now a Captain proudly serving our country.
> Now, this in no way reflects any bad press towards the boy scouts of america, as far as we are concerned, and I do feel that under other circumstances things may have turned out better, but, that was not the case here....



That's too bad your son had that experience with the Scouts. The Cub Master certainly was disrespectful. But, that reminds me of my youth, about 17 or so and the head instructor would chain smoke through every class. The Kwoon smelled like a bar. He was a great instructor and bad *** fighter, but looking back, that was totally out of line.


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## seasoned

Tames D said:


> That's too bad your son had that experience with the Scouts. The Cub Master certainly was disrespectful. But, that reminds me of my youth, about 17 or so and the head instructor would chain smoke through every class. The Kwoon smelled like a bar. He was a great instructor and bad *** fighter, but looking back, that was totally out of line.


Exactly, if fighting is the only draw, any barroom brawler will do for your instructor.


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## jks9199

Posts regarding religion, social equality, and politics have been split off and moved to THIS thread in The Study.

jks9199
Asst Administrator


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## Meitetsu

kempodisciple said:


> Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?


Eagle Scout here


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Meitetsu said:


> Eagle Scout here


Congrats! It's a great accomplishment


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## Tames D

Meitetsu said:


> Eagle Scout here



Have you found that it has helped you in finding employment or other benefits?


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## WC_lun

Seasoned, I wish nothing but safe roads for your son and gratitude for his service.

As I said in an earlier post, the scouts teach many positive things to those children in the organization.  Seasoned's post further highlights the negative of the no gays policy though.  For me, I'd much rather have a den leader that holds the health, welfare, and education of the children above all else who also happens to be gay, than a den mother who smokes with children in the room.


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## Meitetsu

Tames D said:


> Have you found that it has helped you in finding employment or other benefits?


No one has ever given me a job for being an Eagle Scout but the experience and lessons learned have been invaluable.


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## shesulsa

My, has a lot changed since we last discussed this. Boy Scouts allow gay boys (or leave it up to the troop to decide) but not gay leaders. How long do you think THAT will last?

Oh: update on my kid - he and his father are attending their ordeal for the Order of the Arrow as I type. Jared is 1st class and ASPL. He's 15.


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## ballen0351

We tried it with my oldest son.  The troop was just bad.  The kids were rude and disrespectful the leaders had no control over them. They hold meetings in our Church Fellowship hall. Kids were running into the sanctuary knocking over crosses, One boy was standing on the Pews running on them.  We lasted 3 meeting and didnt go back


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## Tames D

We're still in Scouts. My oldest son earned Eagle last year and my youngest is now planning his Eagle project. I'm finding that parents are looking to me to step up more and lead the troop full time since we're losing the leadership due to their boys aging out. My role has typically been to lead on outings where I have more expeience, like rafting, archery, shooting etc. I'm not sure how I feel about being a Scout Master.


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## seasoned

Tames D said:


> We're still in Scouts. My oldest son earned Eagle last year and my youngest is now planning his Eagle project. I'm finding that parents are looking to me to step up more and lead the troop full time since we're losing the leadership due to their boys aging out. My role has typically been to lead on outings where I have more expeience, like rafting, archery, shooting etc. I'm not sure how I feel about being a Scout Master.


In life doors open and doors close. Don't force either the open or close and allow a natural progression and awesome things can happen.


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## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?



I was a boyscout. Boyscouts is a good program and if you make it to eagle that's really great. I never did make it to eagle, I was a star scout.


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## Zero

Cub.
Then Sea Scout.  I don't see any others saying they were such, is that not so popular? There's a lot of fun to be had out on the water.
Sea Scouts also manned the PT Boats and others in active duty during WWII, I didn't know that until recently.


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## PhotonGuy

Zero said:


> Cub.
> Then Sea Scout.  I don't see any others saying they were such, is that not so popular? There's a lot of fun to be had out on the water.
> Sea Scouts also manned the PT Boats and others in active duty during WWII, I didn't know that until recently.



I've heard of Sea Scouts but also theres the Explorer Scouts. I never did that but from what I know about Explorer Scouts they tend to focus more on a particular field instead of being as broad as Boy Scouts. Both Sea Scouts and Explorer Scouts are great and fun learning experiences.


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## Tez3

I don't know what the American Explorers are but here they are the senior section of Scouting.
Introduction to Explorers


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## Tames D

Tames D said:


> We're still in Scouts. My oldest son earned Eagle last year and my youngest is now planning his Eagle project. I'm finding that parents are looking to me to step up more and lead the troop full time since we're losing the leadership due to their boys aging out. My role has typically been to lead on outings where I have more experience, like rafting, archery, shooting etc. I'm not sure how I feel about being a Scout Master.


Just a quick update. Almost 2 years later, we are still active in BSA. Both my boys are Eagle Scouts and serving their troop and community in leadership roles. I will be taking over as Scout Master in a couple of months. Although I have mixed feelings about this role, it is something I need to do.


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## Steve

We are having a rough start with the Girl Scouts.  I signed my youngest up, and can't get anyone to call me back or let me know even where and when her meetings are held.   It's pretty Mickey Mouse so far.


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## elder999

R.I.P.: The Boy Scouts of America


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Steve said:


> We are having a rough start with the Girl Scouts.  I signed my youngest up, and can't get anyone to call me back or let me know even where and when her meetings are held.   It's pretty Mickey Mouse so far.


That happens a lot with girl scout groups. A lot of the scoutmasters have loved and hated girl scout groups in the same region because they're run so differently..apparently, there is no standard they really have to follow.


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## Tez3

Your Girl Scouts are part of the same organisation our Girl Guides are even though each country runs it's organisations separately.
World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts - WAGGGS


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## PhotonGuy

Tames D said:


> Just a quick update. Almost 2 years later, we are still active in BSA. Both my boys are Eagle Scouts and serving their troop and community in leadership roles. I will be taking over as Scout Master in a couple of months. Although I have mixed feelings about this role, it is something I need to do.


Congratulations, to you and your boys.


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## shesulsa

Steve said:


> We are having a rough start with the Girl Scouts.  I signed my youngest up, and can't get anyone to call me back or let me know even where and when her meetings are held.   It's pretty Mickey Mouse so far.



Call the council every dang day. I served in GS USA and it's pathetic what has come of GS around here. If you can't get someone from your Council to call, call National.



elder999 said:


> R.I.P.: The Boy Scouts of America



A lot has changed since that post, hasn't it, Elder999? 

For those who remember me, my son Jared is Life Scout now, headed toward Eagle. He is also in two Explorer crews. One is Crew 911, dedicated to educating emergency preparedness, first aid, wilderness first aid and survival to all who want it. They will teach Girl Scouts too! Jared has planned and led hikes, camps and training modules.

He is also still active in martial arts, about to test for half-red half-black (last rank before black).

Proud momma.


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## Tames D

shesulsa said:


> For those who remember me, my son Jared is Life Scout now, headed toward Eagle. He is also in two Explorer crews. One is Crew 911, dedicated to educating emergency preparedness, first aid, wilderness first aid and survival to all who want it. They will teach Girl Scouts too! Jared has planned and led hikes, camps and training modules.
> 
> He is also still active in martial arts, about to test for half-red half-black (last rank before black).
> 
> Proud momma.


Congrats Georgia. Jared is becoming quite a man! You're doing a great job.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Congratulations!


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## granfire

Tames D said:


> Just a quick update. Almost 2 years later, we are still active in BSA. Both my boys are Eagle Scouts and serving their troop and community in leadership roles. I will be taking over as Scout Master in a couple of months. Although I have mixed feelings about this role, it is something I need to do.



Good deal! It will be somewhat of a rough learning curve, but if you have good parents and a good committee, it'll be awesome!


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> Your Girl Scouts are part of the same organisation our Girl Guides are even though each country runs it's organisations separately.
> World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts - WAGGGS


That is somewhat a hot topic, as the WAGGGS are doing stuff to unamerican, like actually focusing on stuff the female population in non-first worlds has to deal with, like female reproduction issues. 
The GSUSA are a member though.....

I have to say that being involved with both girl and boy scouts, I have been wanting to rip my hair out over the girl scout thing.
When a boy wants to join scouting, they find the next troop, and unless they have a complete clash of personalities, the welcome mat will be rolled out. 
There is a strong structure that binds the troop to the charity that holds the roof over their head.

The girl scouts have so many issues, it's unfunny.
Starting by the curriculum having turned to pink fluff and cookie selling, the troops are 100% dependent on the leaders. 
They decide which age group they deal with, and how many they want to have (past the minimum required).
Personalities clash frequently.
And then we have in our region a constantly revolving door for the contact people in counsel.
I mean, I lost count of who was doing what in the last 2 years, the last one was that a few month (2 or 3 maybe) I was introduced to a young woman and her part of the office dealings, only to learn she does no longer do this particular job. 

If I had a daughter, i would enroll her in Venture Scouts....headed by the BSA, but includes girls and more serious boys who wants tto go past the basics.


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## jks9199

granfire said:


> If I had a daughter, i would enroll her in Venture Scouts....headed by the BSA, but includes girls and more serious boys who wants tto go past the basics.


That's not quite a fair description of Venturing vs "regular" Boy Scouts.  Venturing is a coed program, aimed at older (late teen to early 20s) young people, intended to "provide positive experiences and help them mature into responsible adults."  The program is able to be shaped in a lot of different ways.  Maybe Jared can come along and share more specific information.  ,


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## granfire

Like I said, I am involved. I have been looking at starting my own crew. The mission statement is about the same as for 'Boy Scouts', not to mention that the gender segregation is pretty much a US thing....
Generally, since the crews are older kids, you can do more with them. 
They embody more what girl scouts were, historically speaking.


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## Tez3

I think all the groups in the US seem to wandered a long way from B-P's vision of what they should be and how these groups are in the rest of the world. For example girl Guiding here is an independent charity beholden to no one, we aren't a religious group and no one dictates how we should be run, we decide in Guiding, led by what girls want. We are nationally recognised as a major force for youth. The training for leaders ( in Scouting as well) is first class and includes 'safe Space' a child protection programme. We don't sell cookies, and we aren't at all pink and fluffy far from it. Both Scouting and Guiding are strong cohesive organisations that influence quite a bit of our society. We remain true to the Baden-Powell's ( all of them, Agnes, as well as Lord and Lady B-P)  vision of how youth should be and what they should have to grow. organisations shouldn't stray from the original ideas, they were the ideal then and now.
About us


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## Tez3

Have a watch of some of these, they are in sections, with our activities, campaigning etc alongside our girls views. Plus we have a 'story bank' The Story Bank
girlguiding


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## granfire

Tez3 said:


> I think all the groups in the US seem to wandered a long way from B-P's vision of what they should be and how these groups are in the rest of the world. For example girl Guiding here is an independent charity beholden to no one, we aren't a religious group and no one dictates how we should be run, we decide in Guiding, led by what girls want. We are nationally recognised as a major force for youth. The training for leaders ( in Scouting as well) is first class and includes 'safe Space' a child protection programme. We don't sell cookies, and we aren't at all pink and fluffy far from it. Both Scouting and Guiding are strong cohesive organisations that influence quite a bit of our society. We remain true to the Baden-Powell's ( all of them, Agnes, as well as Lord and Lady B-P)  vision of how youth should be and what they should have to grow. organisations shouldn't stray from the original ideas, they were the ideal then and now.
> About us


The Girl Scouts most certainly have moved away from the principles. 
I mean, they still aim to grow confident women, but the methods have changed so much!


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## Tames D

Tames D said:


> Just a quick update. Almost 2 years later, we are still active in BSA. Both my boys are Eagle Scouts and serving their troop and community in leadership roles. I will be taking over as Scout Master in a couple of months. Although I have mixed feelings about this role, it is something I need to do.


Another update: We are still active in scouting, however we have moved on to Venturing. What Is Venturing?

This is a more high adventure "branch" of BSA. Of course, I somehow found myself in the position as 'Advisor' to the Venturing Crew my boys belong to   Advisor is the Venturers equivalent to a Scoutmasters position in Boy Scouts.

Already having earned their Eagle, they now have an opportunity to work their way up the ranks to earn the Summit Award, which is the Venturers equivalent to Eagle Scout. It will look damn good on their resume's


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## Justin Chang

Tames D said:


> I'm told that Eagle Scout is a good thing to have on your resume.


I once went for a job interview and the gentleman doing the interview started with, "I see you have your eagle scout award, my son quit before he got his eagle. Just so you know you already got the job".  So yes it does help, granted this was only a cashier job at a Wilson Farms but still it did help.


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## Justin Chang

Tames D said:


> Another update: We are still active in scouting, however we have moved on to Venturing. What Is Venturing?
> 
> This is a more high adventure "branch" of BSA. Of course, I somehow found myself in the position as 'Advisor' to the Venturing Crew my boys belong to   Advisor is the Venturers equivalent to a Scoutmasters position in Boy Scouts.
> 
> Already having earned their Eagle, they now have an opportunity to work their way up the ranks to earn the Summit Award, which is the Venturers equivalent to Eagle Scout. It will look damn good on their resume's


I received my eagle scout but our venture group was fairly lame and all they did was go play paintball or climb a rock wall inside some sporting store and play backetball inside a gym.  So instead of doing that I decided to teach the younger scouts.  I learned far more teaching scouts than I did when I was obtaining my eagle badge.  I even went on to teach at a scout camp in the adirondacks which I loved.  I've also found in my adult life that Eagle Scouts tend to find each other somehow, we must be able to zone in on those traits and skills that are part of who we are.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf

Justin Chang said:


> I've also found in my adult life that Eagle Scouts tend to find each other somehow, we must be able to zone in on those traits and skills that are part of who we are.


This is definitely true. I don't know how many friends I've been with for a while, than somehow boy scouts comes up, one of us catches it and says he's an eagle, and the other says that he is too (or at least someone who made life before aging out). It's uncanny.


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## Tames D

Justin Chang said:


> I received my eagle scout but our venture group was fairly lame and all they did was go play paintball or climb a rock wall inside some sporting store and play backetball inside a gym.  So instead of doing that I decided to teach the younger scouts.  I learned far more teaching scouts than I did when I was obtaining my eagle badge.  I even went on to teach at a scout camp in the adirondacks which I loved.  I've also found in my adult life that Eagle Scouts tend to find each other somehow, we must be able to zone in on those traits and skills that are part of who we are.


It's too bad you had a bad experience with your Venturing Crew. In the short time we've been involved in Venturing, we've done some pretty intense stuff. I think of it as the "Special Forces" of scouting


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## BuckerooBonzai

My oldest son (15.5 years old) is a Life Scout and has been doing a great job with it.  Still very active and did his Order of the Arrow ordeal last year and wants to do his Brotherhood ordeal/vigil this year.  I have been volunteering as a parent but probably not as much as I should.  I was never in Scouts growing up.  I wanted to be but I grew up on a small 300 acre dairy farm in northern Vermont where I milked cows every morning and every night and hunted/fished/played in the woods/worked the farm during the day so my dad would always say, "Hell, we ain't got time for scouts.  Besides, you're living the Scouts every day!"  Still missed it, though. 

As for Eagle helping out a resume, we just left the US Military Academy at West Point, NY after being stationed there for four years and there is NO DOUBT that Eagle rank plays a huge part in getting into the military academies.  And not only Eagle rank but if you have served in the position of Senior Patrol Leader. 

Really have enjoyed the peripheral role I have had with my son and Scouts.  Great organization.  And the good thing about the Army is that every time you move, the next post always seems to have a very active troop! 

One question, though:  There is not a Martial Arts Merit Badge, is there?  My son is about 4 months away from testing for his 1st Dan in TKD and I have thought all along that it would make for a perfect merit badge.


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## Justin Chang

Tames D said:


> It's too bad you had a bad experience with your Venturing Crew. In the short time we've been involved in Venturing, we've done some pretty intense stuff. I think of it as the "Special Forces" of scouting


I had hoped that that is what it would be, a more intense version of scouting, do some wilderness survival, etc.  I even went to my troop and pitched an advanced Boy Scouts just for Eagle Scouts but they turned it down.


----------



## Justin Chang

BuckerooBonzai said:


> My oldest son (15.5 years old) is a Life Scout and has been doing a great job with it.  Still very active and did his Order of the Arrow ordeal last year and wants to do his Brotherhood ordeal/vigil this year.  I have been volunteering as a parent but probably not as much as I should.  I was never in Scouts growing up.  I wanted to be but I grew up on a small 300 acre dairy farm in northern Vermont where I milked cows every morning and every night and hunted/fished/played in the woods/worked the farm during the day so my dad would always say, "Hell, we ain't got time for scouts.  Besides, you're living the Scouts every day!"  Still missed it, though.
> 
> As for Eagle helping out a resume, we just left the US Military Academy at West Point, NY after being stationed there for four years and there is NO DOUBT that Eagle rank plays a huge part in getting into the military academies.  And not only Eagle rank but if you have served in the position of Senior Patrol Leader.
> 
> Really have enjoyed the peripheral role I have had with my son and Scouts.  Great organization.  And the good thing about the Army is that every time you move, the next post always seems to have a very active troop!
> 
> One question, though:  There is not a Martial Arts Merit Badge, is there?  My son is about 4 months away from testing for his 1st Dan in TKD and I have thought all along that it would make for a perfect merit badge.



When I was teaching they told me I could not create a Martial Arts merit badge because it was too violent, I asked about the fencing merit badge and they had no reply.  I don't know if they added one since then though that was over a decade ago.  

It is my understanding if you are an Eagle Scout you start off a rank higher in the military.


----------



## jks9199

BuckerooBonzai said:


> One question, though:  There is not a Martial Arts Merit Badge, is there?  My son is about 4 months away from testing for his 1st Dan in TKD and I have thought all along that it would make for a perfect merit badge.



No, there's not -- and there's pretty much not going to be, at least any time soon.  There are a couple that can include martial arts, but the decision on the national level is not to have a martial arts or directly related merit badge.  Some of it is about risk, some of it is about imagery and program purposes.  Some commentary/info:
Why no Martial Arts?
Sports and Activities


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## Tez3

UK Scouts have a martial arts badge, they have a master at arms one too. The Cubs have a martial arts activity badge too, it's shame your Scouts don't.  Martial Arts Activity Badge


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## Steve

Justin Chang said:


> When I was teaching they told me I could not create a Martial Arts merit badge because it was too violent, I asked about the fencing merit badge and they had no reply.  I don't know if they added one since then though that was over a decade ago.
> 
> It is my understanding if you are an Eagle Scout you start off a rank higher in the military.


You go into the miltary as an E2 vs an E1.  Basically, eagle scout gives you a 6 month head start.   There are several ways to get a jump start on your enlistment.


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## BuckerooBonzai

jks9199 said:


> No, there's not -- and there's pretty much not going to be, at least any time soon.  There are a couple that can include martial arts, but the decision on the national level is not to have a martial arts or directly related merit badge.  Some of it is about risk, some of it is about imagery and program purposes.  Some commentary/info:
> Why no Martial Arts?
> Sports and Activities



Really great info.  Thanks for the resource.  And on an aside, cannot imagine why they banned "*Exploration of abandoned mines".    I mean, what could possibly go wrong with that hobby???  *


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## shesulsa

If anyone who remembers me is still banging around ... my son Jared just passed his Eagle board of review!


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## jks9199

shesulsa said:


> If anyone who remembers me is still banging around ... my son Jared just passed his Eagle board of review!


Congratulate him for me.


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## Tames D

shesulsa said:


> If anyone who remembers me is still banging around ... my son Jared just passed his Eagle board of review!


Congratulations to Jared! And to you Georgia. I know how important the parents role is in this achievement.


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## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?



I was a boy scout, a long time ago. I did not get the fabled Eagle badge although I did make it to Star which is two ranks below Eagle. Boy scouts was fun, among other things I learned some basics of first aid, basics of navigation while hiking, we would go on week long camping trips every summer, I learned how to tie some basic knots such as the square knot, and it was the first time I got to shoot a gun, during summer camp in boy scouts I was introduced to the .22 rifle and later on I got to shoot a .410 shotgun while skeet shooting. I wasn't that good at it then but I've gotten much better. Although I didn't make it to Eagle I did make it to Star which for me is good enough. It would've been nice to be an Eagle Scout but I didn't really have a burning desire for it and due to the situation with our troop as well as the situation with my family, I had to move on from boy scouts. But it was fun when I did it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Carol said:


> I believe Eagle Scouts who enlist in the army may be able to join as an E3 instead of E1.  By comparison...my niece also started as an E3 - Private, First Class - due to her 3 years of success in  her high school's Jr. ROTC. (She is a sergeant now, deployed).
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk 2



Well also supposedly being an Eagle Scout can really help you get into colleges such as West Point.


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## PhotonGuy

shesulsa said:


> If anyone who remembers me is still banging around ... my son Jared just passed his Eagle board of review!



Wow, congratulations! If you make it to Eagle its really great. I never did make it to Eagle. Its quite an accomplishment, some people might see it as a Rite of Passage.


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## Tames D

Tames D said:


> Another update: We are still active in scouting, however we have moved on to Venturing. What Is Venturing?
> 
> This is a more high adventure "branch" of BSA. Of course, I somehow found myself in the position as 'Advisor' to the Venturing Crew my boys belong to   Advisor is the Venturers equivalent to a Scoutmasters position in Boy Scouts.
> 
> Already having earned their Eagle, they now have an opportunity to work their way up the ranks to earn the Summit Award, which is the Venturers equivalent to Eagle Scout. It will look damn good on their resume's


Latest update: My sons have left the scouts. My older son is focused on his music degree in College. My younger son just turned 18 and immediately enlisted in the Marine Corps. I'm equally proud of them both.


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## JR 137

Tames D said:


> Latest update: My sons have left the scouts. My older son is focused on his music degree in College. My younger son just turned 18 and immediately enlisted in the Marine Corps. I'm equally proud of them both.


Well, if they’re going to quit, then that’s the way you do it.


----------



## granfire

Tames D said:


> Latest update: My sons have left the scouts. My older son is focused on his music degree in College. My younger son just turned 18 and immediately enlisted in the Marine Corps. I'm equally proud of them both.


That's not to say they won't return at a later point.
It's their time now to experience the world. 
They will take what they learned with them.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Tez3 said:


> UK Scouts have a martial arts badge, they have a master at arms one too. The Cubs have a martial arts activity badge too, it's shame your Scouts don't.  Martial Arts Activity Badge


In BSA most of the martial arts are "prohibited activities."


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> In BSA most of the martial arts are "prohibited activities."



The only ones you can do are judo, tai chi and aikido because apparently they are nonviolent.  Wrestling and fencing is ok under the sports merit badge.


----------



## Blindside

So in the six years since this thread first posted my oldest joined Boy Scouts last fall and is having a blast.  And I have just been entered onto the rolls as an assistant scoutmaster and hoping to heavily involved with the outdoor program.  It is a small troop but it has some incredible resources.


----------



## Steve

Future of scouting in America is in flux, now that the LDS has severed their partnership.  Will be interestong to see where it goes.


----------



## JR 137

PhotonGuy said:


> In BSA most of the martial arts are "prohibited activities."





Blindside said:


> The only ones you can do are judo, tai chi and aikido because apparently they are nonviolent.  Wrestling and fencing is ok under the sports merit badge.


One of my CI’s students became (promoted to? earned? whatever the technical term is) an Eagle Scout before I joined. My CI was the person he gave his mentor pin to. 

It was before I joined so I don’t know very many specifics.


----------



## granfire

JR 137 said:


> One of my CI’s students became (promoted to? earned? whatever the technical term is) an Eagle Scout before I joined. My CI was the person he gave his mentor pin to.
> 
> It was before I joined so I don’t know very many specifics.


well, you earn the rank. It's at least 2 years of hard work. 
But when everything is said and done, you are going to be awarded with it...


----------



## Blindside

Steve said:


> Future of scouting in America is in flux, now that the LDS has severed their partnership.  Will be interestong to see where it goes.



So during my time away from Scouting I worked with a number of LDS troops when their prospective Eagle scouts were looking for service projects.  Unfortunately because the troop had become the defacto male youth development program for the church many of the kids weren't really there for being "Scouts" they were there because that is just what you did.  My hope is that the result will be a leaner more focused organization in the future.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?


I was a boy scout, I really enjoyed it and learned quite a bit. If you make it to Eagle that's really great, quite an accomplishment. I've got a cousin whose an Eagle Scout but I never did make it to Eagle. I made it to Star which Im satisfied with. Most of all I just liked the activities, particularly the camping where you really do learn a lot.


----------



## dvcochran

Steve said:


> Future of scouting in America is in flux, now that the LDS has severed their partnership.  Will be interestong to see where it goes.


You think it is that big of a deal? BSA is going strong in TN.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

dvcochran said:


> You think it is that big of a deal? BSA is going strong in TN.


Same here in NY. I think it might be different in places that are much more mormon though.


----------



## granfire

dvcochran said:


> You think it is that big of a deal? BSA is going strong in TN.


The LDS church had a huge influence in the organization, as they made Scouting mandatory for their boys, and the church pumped a lot of money into their troops, so the kids didn't have to wonder about the financial aspects of the game. it is a huge thing, as not all venues are generous wit their support (not BSA, but a friend had to pay rent to her own church for her Girl Scout troop to hold meetings there!) 
You won't even know where the LDS churches are, as they are everywhere, inconspicuously so. I have a rather large one around the corner from me, far away from Utah. 

What puzzles me though, is the new allegations. Some of them reach as far back as the earliest days. 
the organization put rules in place, and some of them are near impossible to uphold when you want to run a community involved troop, but it seems that one just needs to be a hard a**, if the kid has no ride to the meetings, tough luck.


----------



## dvcochran

kempodisciple said:


> Same here in NY. I think it might be different in places that are much more mormon though.


I was really surprised at the numbers. According to Google there are about 3.3 million boy scouts (in the U.S.) including adult volunteers and 14.8 million Mormons (worldwide). 
If you Google just scouts the number shoots up to 38 million but I am not sure what all that includes.


----------



## granfire

dvcochran said:


> I was really surprised at the numbers. According to Google there are about 3.3 million boy scouts (in the U.S.) including adult volunteers and 14.8 million Mormons (worldwide).
> If you Google just scouts the number shoots up to 38 million but I am not sure what all that includes.


there are several other scout organizations around, Frontier Girls, Herritage Girls, Girl Scouts, and a Boy Scout offshoot, from when some folks decided to leave, because gay people. 

but even 38 million isn't that huge of a number. the pressure is on, a lot of organizations are competing for the same pool of participants, and of course, electronics and internet.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

dvcochran said:


> I was really surprised at the numbers. According to Google there are about 3.3 million boy scouts (in the U.S.) including adult volunteers and 14.8 million Mormons (worldwide).
> If you Google just scouts the number shoots up to 38 million but I am not sure what all that includes.


Wikipedia has a table in their scouting page Scouting - Wikipedia

Google also told me that 20% of boy scouts last year were mormon, according to the washington post (Mormon Church breaks all ties with Boy Scouts, ending 100-year relationship), although I'm not sure where they got the number from.


----------



## granfire

kempodisciple said:


> Wikipedia has a table in their scouting page Scouting - Wikipedia
> 
> Google also told me that 20% of boy scouts last year were mormon, according to the washington post (Mormon Church breaks all ties with Boy Scouts, ending 100-year relationship), although I'm not sure where they got the number from.


you can say that again
and again.
I have heard other numbers, but I am not sure anymore. The numbers were high though (as mentioned, it was mandated)
I know that there were a lot of folks who did not miss the LDS troops rolling into summer camps....


----------



## drop bear

granfire said:


> you can say that again
> and again.
> I have heard other numbers, but I am not sure anymore. The numbers were high though (as mentioned, it was mandated)
> I know that there were a lot of folks who did not miss the LDS troops rolling into summer camps....



And look if they have those sorts of numbers it would make sense to start their own brand.


----------



## granfire

drop bear said:


> And look if they have those sorts of numbers it would make sense to start their own brand.


why bother when you can dictate policy. 
I don't know if they replaced the scouting mandate with something new. The defectors largely opposed inclusivity of gay boys, and the change to allow gay leaders finished that off. 

But the troops are only as good as the supporting community.


----------



## dvcochran

granfire said:


> there are several other scout organizations around, Frontier Girls, Herritage Girls, Girl Scouts, and a Boy Scout offshoot, from when some folks decided to leave, because gay people.
> 
> but even 38 million isn't that huge of a number. the pressure is on, a lot of organizations are competing for the same pool of participants, and of course, electronics and internet.


We are a different denomination and our son was a Royal Ranger. Very similar activities and had a patch/badge program as well.


----------



## drop bear

granfire said:


> why bother when you can dictate policy.
> I don't know if they replaced the scouting mandate with something new. The defectors largely opposed inclusivity of gay boys, and the change to allow gay leaders finished that off.
> 
> But the troops are only as good as the supporting community.



Apparently you guys are finally letting girls in as well which sent them a bit wild. 

But yeah. I like the idea of the scouts being a modern inclusive organisation. 

And I think that is important for the supporting community.


----------



## Blindside

drop bear said:


> Apparently you guys are finally letting girls in as well which sent them a bit wild.
> 
> But yeah. I like the idea of the scouts being a modern inclusive organisation.
> 
> And I think that is important for the supporting community.



I think it is a good change, I don't have a daughter (3 boys) but if I did I would want her to have the same opportunities as my sons.  There will be growing pains though, any troop is going to be as successful as its adult leadership and support network can make it and established troops have funnels to maintain and grow success.  I saw all girl troops at the Scout Camp this year and unsurprisingly they were unfamiliar with the traditions that go along with those camps.  The scout camps usually have a competition for best troop for each week which in the past the troops have worked hard excel in, but this year that competition was cancelled because you are pitting troops with some scouts who have been to camps up to 7 times against a troops of all newbies.  The boys in my troop, particularly the older ones who wanted to maintain their tradition of winning those competitions were a bit disappointed by that. 

So far our district only has one girls troop out of 24, I hope those numbers can grow.  I was actually surprised at the scout camp, they had 3 girls troops out of about 10 there, quite frankly I was surprised to see that many.


----------



## granfire

drop bear said:


> Apparently you guys are finally letting girls in as well which sent them a bit wild.
> 
> But yeah. I like the idea of the scouts being a modern inclusive organisation.
> 
> And I think that is important for the supporting community.


LOL, yeah, the 'traditionalists' are having a tough few years. 
it only makes sense that the girls can go to BSA troops (not coed yet) since they are most often there anyhow, as sisters of scouts. the Girl Scouts are a fine organization as well, developing leadership in young girls and women, but they have moved from their Baden Powel roots and developed a different toolset to accomplish their mission. 
In most countries scouting is coed, even in countries you would not expect it, why keep genders separate in the US...(we don't do that logic thing though, bear with us) 
First gay boys, then gay leaders, now them wimminz....it's the end of the world as we know it!


----------



## granfire

Blindside said:


> I think it is a good change, I don't have a daughter (3 boys) but if I did I would want her to have the same opportunities as my sons.  There will be growing pains though, any troop is going to be as successful as its adult leadership and support network can make it and established troops have funnels to maintain and grow success.  I saw all girl troops at the Scout Camp this year and unsurprisingly they were unfamiliar with the traditions that go along with those camps.  The scout camps usually have a competition for best troop for each week which in the past the troops have worked hard excel in, but this year that competition was cancelled because you are pitting troops with some scouts who have been to camps up to 7 times against a troops of all newbies.  The boys in my troop, particularly the older ones who wanted to maintain their tradition of winning those competitions were a bit disappointed by that.
> 
> So far our district only has one girls troop out of 24, I hope those numbers can grow.  I was actually surprised at the scout camp, they had 3 girls troops out of about 10 there, quite frankly I was surprised to see that many.


a lot of those troops are lead by adults who have already been dragging their daughters along to all the scouting events the brothers went to. I know that's the case where I am, I know of one troop of girls. the leader has dragged her girl along for BSA and GSUSA events for years. 
Not sure if I agree about suspending the competition though, the girls don't need special treatment. Just equal opportunity!
The Girl Scouts have their own top award, but it does not carry the same weight as Eagle Scout. 
You get kicked up 3 ranks if you join the army, and some employers will give you the edge over other competitors if you can claim to have earned Eagle.


----------



## thanson02

kempodisciple said:


> Just wondering, anyone else on here a boy scout/eagle scout/scoutmaster/asst scoutmaster?


Eagle Scout


----------



## dvcochran

drop bear said:


> Apparently you guys are finally letting girls in as well which sent them a bit wild.
> 
> But yeah. I like the idea of the scouts being a modern inclusive organisation.
> 
> And I think that is important for the supporting community.


I hate it but it is only a matter of time before there is an incident regarding the male/female interaction. What is wrong with seperate girl scout and boy scout groups? They are both scouts.


----------



## donald1

I joined boy scouts once. We never did anything. One time we had a can good collection.  The person in charge of our group got in trouble for keeping some of the food and the group ended up disbanded. Haven't joined up since. Still have the uniform at my parents house as a reminder though.


----------



## granfire

dvcochran said:


> I hate it but it is only a matter of time before there is an incident regarding the male/female interaction. What is wrong with seperate girl scout and boy scout groups? They are both scouts.


in most countries scouting is coed. 
in the US it is separate, and the GSUSA has taken a different, more urban approache to scouting. Some aspects of their organization drove me up the wall, like the astronomical price of the material the girls have to have to accomplish their badges and awards (a rank handbook costs about 30 dollars, plus add ons you need to doo all the stuff for the rank, and it's only good for 2-3 years. The BSA handbook is good for the duration of the scouting experience, from age 10 1/2 to 18, for ten dollars, and all progress is recorded in there! Plus it is portable, not a ginormous three ring binder.) 

The BSA troops are not coed, but Venture Crews have been for a very long time. Scouts 14 through 21 can join the crews. They, too participate at the summer camps. So it's not as if this girl thing is completely new. 
But - I think - it's better to introduce them when they are still 'yucky girls' vs 'damn, girls! I am hot and bothered'  

The BSA has rather strict rules, it is up to the troops to enforce them, and just deal, I suppose. 
Which sucks, as the ones who need the most help, the ones profiting most from the experience, are also the kids who are most vulnerable.


----------



## granfire

donald1 said:


> I joined boy scouts once. We never did anything. One time we had a can good collection.  The person in charge of our group got in trouble for keeping some of the food and the group ended up disbanded. Haven't joined up since. Still have the uniform at my parents house as a reminder though.


Yeah, that kind of blows. The troop is only as good as the leadership. and that is really hard to come by. Good leadership is tougher yet!


----------



## Gerry Seymour

dvcochran said:


> I hate it but it is only a matter of time before there is an incident regarding the male/female interaction. What is wrong with seperate girl scout and boy scout groups? They are both scouts.


Separate but equal doesn't have a very good track record. Yes, there are challenges, but as others have pointed out, there have been girls around many events for a long time. There will be an adjustment period, but 40 years from now, folks probably won't understand why there was every a segregation by gender.


----------



## Deleted member 34973

My cousin and I tried to join when we were kids, but was told we were to white trash. It was a state event, located in the small town of Noel Mo. 

It's ok though, county sheriff heard about what they said, and band these functions in the county. I think because we were the only two not allowed to sign up.

Individual troops still got together and did their thing. Just no big events anymore.

Nice guy that Sheriff.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Speaking of Boy Scouts and for those who want to be an Eagle Scout, you can buy an Eagle badge at any Boy Scout store for a few dollars. So anybody who wants to get an Eagle Badge, that's how you can get one, very easy and very simple.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts and for those who want to be an Eagle Scout, you can buy an Eagle badge at any Boy Scout store for a few dollars. So anybody who wants to get an Eagle Badge, that's how you can get one, very easy and very simple.



You should only be doing this if you're leading a troop, or replacing an eagle badge that you bought. otherwise there's no reason.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> You should only be doing this if you're leading a troop, or replacing an eagle badge that you bought. otherwise there's no reason.


My point exactly. If you buy a badge without earning it and claim to be an Eagle Scout, you're nothing but a fake. Same thing with belts.


----------



## granfire

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts and for those who want to be an Eagle Scout, you can buy an Eagle badge at any Boy Scout store for a few dollars. So anybody who wants to get an Eagle Badge, that's how you can get one, very easy and very simple.


you actually can't.
you have to bring documentation that either you, or a scout in your troop earned it. 
you might find stuff at yardsales, or in thrift stores, but the scout store won't sell you any merit badges without documentation.


----------



## PhotonGuy

granfire said:


> you actually can't.
> you have to bring documentation that either you, or a scout in your troop earned it.
> you might find stuff at yardsales, or in thrift stores, but the scout store won't sell you any merit badges without documentation.


Right. 
Well the point is, just because you somehow come into possession of an eagle badge, that does not make you an Eagle Scout.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Right.
> Well the point is, just because you somehow come into possession of an eagle badge, that does not make you an Eagle Scout.


What is the purpose of that statement? As far as i know, no one here has ever argued the oppoaite, for eagle scouts (or belts). People have argued that there are different standards (for belts), and that if someone has a belt you dont agree with it doesn't effect you, but I've yet to see someone argue that buying the belt in a store makes you that rank


----------



## dvcochran

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts and for those who want to be an Eagle Scout, you can buy an Eagle badge at any Boy Scout store for a few dollars. So anybody who wants to get an Eagle Badge, that's how you can get one, very easy and very simple.


Is that the same value you put on your MA rank or experience? Very sad.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> What is the purpose of that statement? As far as i know, no one here has ever argued the oppoaite, for eagle scouts (or belts). People have argued that there are different standards (for belts), and that if someone has a belt you dont agree with it doesn't effect you, but I've yet to see someone argue that buying the belt in a store makes you that rank


Some people in the past on this forum have suggested I buy a belt at a store or online instead of earning it.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Some people in the past on this forum have suggested I buy a belt at a store or online instead of earning it.


Im assuming this is the post you're referring to, or similar ones:



Headhunter said:


> As for the black belt who cares it's a piece of fabric just find a new place or train yourself


These posts are saying the belt is a piece of fabric,  the comparison would be that the eagle scout badge is just a pin. Both of which are true, but neither suggest you earn it by buying it from a store. I think you're missing the time of people's suggestions.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Im assuming this is the post you're referring to, or similar ones:
> 
> 
> These posts are saying the belt is a piece of fabric,  the comparison would be that the eagle scout badge is just a pin. Both of which are true, but neither suggest you earn it by buying it from a store. I think you're missing the time of people's suggestions.


No actually Im referring to really old posts that people used to make where they suggest that I buy a belt, or that they would mail me a belt. Partially along the lines of what Headhunter said.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> No actually Im referring to really old posts that people used to make where they suggest that I buy a belt, or that they would mail me a belt. Partially along the lines of what Headhunter said.


I'd have to see the posts to be able to comment on it. And im not going to dig through old posts, nor ask you to, so if it comes up again and i notice I'll reply to this.


----------



## jks9199

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts and for those who want to be an Eagle Scout, you can buy an Eagle badge at any Boy Scout store for a few dollars. So anybody who wants to get an Eagle Badge, that's how you can get one, very easy and very simple.


Nope, you can't.

The Scout Shops won't sell rank insignia, especially Eagle, without supporting documentation.

Of course, you can also buy a black belt in a store...


----------



## Blindside

dvcochran said:


> I hate it but it is only a matter of time before there is an incident regarding the male/female interaction. What is wrong with seperate girl scout and boy scout groups? They are both scouts.



Cub Scoutings and Scouting troops will not be coed, though again as other people have pointed out other countries have done so without major problems.

Venture/Explorer scouts (14-21) have been coed for decades, I am sure there have been incidents but it wasn't really a big issue within the groups I was a part of.


----------



## dvcochran

Blindside said:


> Cub Scoutings and Scouting troops will not be coed, though again as other people have pointed out other countries have done so without major problems.
> 
> Venture/Explorer scouts (14-21) have been coed for decades, I am sure there have been incidents but it wasn't really a big issue within the groups I was a part of.


Frankly, I would worry less below the age of 21.


----------



## PhotonGuy

jks9199 said:


> Nope, you can't.
> 
> The Scout Shops won't sell rank insignia, especially Eagle, without supporting documentation.
> 
> Of course, you can also buy a black belt in a store...


You might be able to buy a black belt at a store but not a rank certificate and you won't get a rank certificate (documentation just like with Eagle Scout documentation) from a school without earning it.

As for getting an Eagle badge, you might not be able to buy it at a shop without proper documentation but as another poster put it, you might be able to buy it at thrift shops and yard sales.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> Cub Scoutings and Scouting troops will not be coed, though again as other people have pointed out other countries have done so without major problems.
> 
> Venture/Explorer scouts (14-21) have been coed for decades, I am sure there have been incidents but it wasn't really a big issue within the groups I was a part of.


Haven't been a Boy Scout for quite a long time but supposedly they're now making it co-ed or at least they're trying to move in that direction from what I've heard. Its different than back when I was doing it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

thanson02 said:


> Eagle Scout


Wow, that is quite the accomplishment! Congratulations.


----------



## PhotonGuy

granfire said:


> a lot of those troops are lead by adults who have already been dragging their daughters along to all the scouting events the brothers went to. I know that's the case where I am, I know of one troop of girls. the leader has dragged her girl along for BSA and GSUSA events for years.
> Not sure if I agree about suspending the competition though, the girls don't need special treatment. Just equal opportunity!
> The Girl Scouts have their own top award, but it does not carry the same weight as Eagle Scout.
> You get kicked up 3 ranks if you join the army, and some employers will give you the edge over other competitors if you can claim to have earned Eagle.


For the Girl Scouts I believe "gold" is the highest rank, its their equivalent to Eagle. I don't know what the requirements for it are or what weight it does carry. 
If you're an Eagle Scout or a Gold Scout, aside from being kicked up 3 ranks if you join the Army as well as in some cases getting better job opportunities, it can really help you get into certain colleges, such as West Point or Annapolis.


----------



## Blindside

PhotonGuy said:


> Haven't been a Boy Scout for quite a long time but supposedly they're now making it co-ed or at least they're trying to move in that direction from what I've heard. Its different than back when I was doing it.



Scouts BSA (what used to be the Boy Scouts 11-17 year old progarm) is NOT co-ed, there are now male and female troops.  To be fair I have heard of troops that are just not asking questions, but that is outside of BSA policy.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Blindside said:


> Scouts BSA (what used to be the Boy Scouts 11-17 year old progarm) is NOT co-ed, there are now male and female troops.  To be fair I have heard of troops that are just not asking questions, but that is outside of BSA policy.


I see. Its been awhile since I've been a Boy Scout. I don't know how they do things now but apparently they've changed quite a bit since the time I was doing it.


----------



## PhotonGuy

Speaking of Boy Scouts, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be an Eagle Scout, is there?


----------



## Gerry Seymour

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be an Eagle Scout, is there?


I can't think of anything wrong with it. One of our nephews got his Eagle badge a year or two ago. It took a lot of hard work and dedication. It was important enough to him that some of us traveled from out-of-town to be there for the ceremony.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Speaking of Boy Scouts, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be an Eagle Scout, is there?


Some teenagers think so, because they feel it's nerdy to be a boy scout and/or eagle scout. But there's nothing actually wrong with it, if anything it's a good aspiration to have.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Some teenagers think so, because they feel it's nerdy to be a boy scout and/or eagle scout. But there's nothing actually wrong with it, if anything it's a good aspiration to have.


Right, and I agree, about it being a good aspiration to have. Now, not everybody who goes into Boy Scouts might have the goal of eventually becoming an Eagle Scout but there's some that do. Some people go into Boy Scouts because they want to experience camping and other outdoor activities but they don't really care about scout rank or whether or not they'll ever make Eagle. Some people want to gain the wide variety knowledge and of skills you learn as a Boy Scout but they don't care about earning badges. And then there are those who join the Boy Scouts with the hope of someday being an Eagle Scout in which obviously you do have to gain the proper knowledge and skills to make that rank. The point is, people join the Boy Scouts for all different reasons and they've got all different goals and there is nothing wrong with having whatever goal or goals you might have when you join the Boy Scouts, including the goal of being an Eagle Scout.

By the same token, there is nothing wrong with going into the martial arts with the goal of eventually earning a certain rank. Not everybody who takes up martial arts has the goal of earning rank since, like Boy Scouts, people take up martial arts for all different reasons and with all different goals in mind and none of those goals are wrong including the goal of earning a certain rank whether it be First Degree Black Belt or whatever else. Wanting to earn a certain rank in a certain style at a certain school that teaches martial arts is no more wrong than wanting to earn a certain rank in Boy Scouts whether it be Eagle Scout or whatever else. On this forum, in the past, there has been some debate about whether or not a student should want to earn rank. The way I see it, and the point Im trying to make, is that it's up to the student. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn rank in the martial arts and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to earn rank in the martial arts. It all depends on the student and what the student wants to achieve.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> Right, and I agree, about it being a good aspiration to have. Now, not everybody who goes into Boy Scouts might have the goal of eventually becoming an Eagle Scout but there's some that do. Some people go into Boy Scouts because they want to experience camping and other outdoor activities but they don't really care about scout rank or whether or not they'll ever make Eagle. Some people want to gain the wide variety knowledge and of skills you learn as a Boy Scout but they don't care about earning badges. And then there are those who join the Boy Scouts with the hope of someday being an Eagle Scout in which obviously you do have to gain the proper knowledge and skills to make that rank. The point is, people join the Boy Scouts for all different reasons and they've got all different goals and there is nothing wrong with having whatever goal or goals you might have when you join the Boy Scouts, including the goal of being an Eagle Scout.
> 
> By the same token, there is nothing wrong with going into the martial arts with the goal of eventually earning a certain rank. Not everybody who takes up martial arts has the goal of earning rank since, like Boy Scouts, people take up martial arts for all different reasons and with all different goals in mind and none of those goals are wrong including the goal of earning a certain rank whether it be First Degree Black Belt or whatever else. Wanting to earn a certain rank in a certain style at a certain school that teaches martial arts is no more wrong than wanting to earn a certain rank in Boy Scouts whether it be Eagle Scout or whatever else. On this forum, in the past, there has been some debate about whether or not a student should want to earn rank. The way I see it, and the point Im trying to make, is that it's up to the student. There is nothing wrong with wanting to earn rank in the martial arts and there is nothing wrong with not wanting to earn rank in the martial arts. It all depends on the student and what the student wants to achieve.


Honestly, you've been focusing more on what a black belt means, or if people should try to get it, then anyone else in this forum has been recently.


----------



## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Honestly, you've been focusing more on what a black belt means, or if people should try to get it, then anyone else in this forum has been recently.


What a black belt, or any belt, means, that depends on what you did to get it. What standards you had to meet to get the rank which the belt represents. Whether or not people should try to get it, that depends on the person.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf

PhotonGuy said:


> What a black belt, or any belt, means, that depends on what you did to get it. What standards you had to meet to get the rank which the belt represents. Whether or not people should try to get it, that depends on the person.


Yes, I agree. I've literally never argued with you about that. But while moatly wveryone has agreed on/accepted that and moved on, you seem stuck harping on it.


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## PhotonGuy

kempodisciple said:


> Yes, I agree. I've literally never argued with you about that. But while moatly wveryone has agreed on/accepted that and moved on, you seem stuck harping on it.


Well as for all the times I've mentioned it in the past.


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