# Counter-Disarms.



## arnisador (Aug 11, 2002)

I've always thought of this as optional material. One can imagine applications, and attributes developed by it, but overall it never seemed that important to me (how often do you get a disarm in the first place, apart from when you hit the hand?). Does anyone emphasize these techniques?


----------



## Baoquan (Aug 11, 2002)

I was shown one  *once* when i was fencing...but never even tried it in a match - as you said, disarms are not common. 

Not sure how similar fencing/FMA disarms (and therefore counters) are, but i could look into it if you'd like.


Cheers

Bao.


----------



## arnisador (Aug 11, 2002)

I thought fencers only used disarms in the movies!


----------



## Baoquan (Aug 11, 2002)

Pretty much. There was a guy in my class who was an olympic modern pentathlete, and he was *so* good, he could disarm during a match (although i doubt very much he ever did it while competing). He was the guy who showed me how to avoid the disarm.

Unfortunately, i only ever realised he was disarming me when my epee was already on the floor.....


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 12, 2002)

I don't emphasise it greatly, but I'll teach them if a student is advanced enough.

I've learned at least 1 counter for all the angles (although for some angles, the counters are very similar). It is a good way to train the attributes of flow and body mechanics/sensitivity, if anything to help recognize when a disarm might be coming to you, even if doing one in combat isn't realistic


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *I've always thought of this as optional material. One can imagine applications, and attributes developed by it, but overall it never seemed that important to me (how often do you get a disarm in the first place, apart from when you hit the hand?). Does anyone emphasize these techniques? *



I emphasise the hell out of them.  Why?  Several reasons: 

1.  Ethically, the highest form of self defense is when you handle the situation and nobody gets hurt.

2.  Remy Presas could disarm someone "on the fly" (mid-motion).  I, personally, aspire to reach his level.  He actually saved his own life with his ability to disarm an opponent rather than striking him.  Get Renegade to tell you the story some day and if he doesn't, I will on my next visit to Buffalo.

3.  Cane manipulation skills.  The more facility you have with a cane, the better you can manipulate yours or anothers.

Dan Anderson


----------



## arnisador (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Cane manipulation skills.  The more facility you have with a cane, the better you can manipulate yours or anothers. *



This is the part of it I like. You never know what position you'll end up in with respect to your opponent (as I think *Paul* was also suggesting).


----------



## Roland (Aug 13, 2002)

Dan Elliot is well know in our area for being very, very good at the counter disarms.
I learned them from Mark Banez myself, I liked them a lot. They were not too difficult, but you must have impeccable timing to pull them off.
This ast weekend I had to time to learn a little Caberoon (SP) system of escrima, some of the techniques reminded me of the counter disarms because of the use of both hands on the stick!


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by PAUL _
> 
> *...even if doing one in combat isn't realistic
> *




Big Dady Paul,

I disagree with you there on that portion of the statement.  A disarm is realistic in combat in the right circumstance.  RP could.  At this time maybe it's unrealistic for thee and me at our respective skill levels to shoot for a disarm as a first line of defense, but at some point when we become totally awesome it'll be a different matter.

Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Disclaimer - THIS IS the BEGINNING of the JOKE STATEMENT

Dan,

Thanks for the great compliment. Rich Parsons - RP.

Disclaimer - THIS IS the END of the JOKE STATEMENT

Seriously,

Remy Presas - RP could and did reach in and take away canes on a regular basis. I think it had to do with his understanding of the movements and counters and also his timing and knowing when to execute them.

Just my opinion

Rich

:asian:


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rich Parsons _
> 
> *Remy Presas - RP could and did reach in and take away canes on a regular basis. I think it had to do with his understanding of the movements and counters and also his timing and knowing when to execute them.
> 
> ...



I smell Balintawak!

:asian:


----------



## Cruentus (Aug 14, 2002)

A disarm is realistic in combat in the right circumstance. RP could. 

Good point! I forget that combat reality is dependent on what level the individual is, and what their specialty is. There are certian techniques that I'd feel comfortable doing in reality that a beginner would need more training to execute; and there are people beyond me that could make a technique work for them that I wouldn't feel comfortable doing in combat until I've reached that level.

It's all relevent, I gather!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Renegade _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Renegade,

It could be Balintawak, it could have been natrual talent with some Balintawak Refining.

Are you sure it is Balintawak you Smell?

Nice THOR! Nice LOKI!, Down Boys!  

Rich


----------



## Dan Anderson (Aug 14, 2002)

Ricardo,
You are unspeakably awesome, which is right below "legend in his own lunchtime."  You are getting there.  Totally awesome is right around the corner.  You just have to find which corner, as we all do.
Dan


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 14, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> 
> *Ricardo,
> You are unspeakably awesome, which is right below "legend in his own lunchtime."  You are getting there.  Totally awesome is right around the corner.  You just have to find which corner, as we all do.
> Dan *



Thanks for the compliment. And Lunch Time is my favorite meeting
of the day.

As for corners, I'll keep walking those streets until I find the right
corner. And in the mean time, try not to trip over the broken
concrete and run into those corners ;~).

Have a nice day!

Rich


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *I emphasise the hell out of them.  Why?  Several reasons:
> 
> 1.  Ethically, the highest form of self defense is when you handle the situation and nobody gets hurt.
> *



Yes Dan, yet some of us have no ethics. I strive to be ethical, yet fall short from time to time, yet a worthy goal.



> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *2.  Remy Presas could disarm someone "on the fly" (mid-motion).  I, personally, aspire to reach his level.  He actually saved his own life with his ability to disarm an opponent rather than striking him.  Get Renegade to tell you the story some day and if he doesn't, I will on my next visit to Buffalo.
> *



Excellant story, and worthy of the time.



> _Originally posted by Dan Anderson _
> *3.  Cane manipulation skills.  The more facility you have with a cane, the better you can manipulate yours or anothers.
> 
> Dan Anderson *



I could not agree with you more Dan.

You will do what you practice. If you never do something, then you cannot do it. If you do it all the time, then it will come out when you are under stress.

 :asian:


----------



## stickarts (Oct 15, 2003)

I emphasize disarms heavily and the counters are required at 3rd brownbelt level.
we incorporate them into stick flow drills, first doing the disarms, then eventually countering the disarms.
With lots of practice, i have found we start to pull them off them more and more.


----------



## Dan Anderson (Oct 15, 2003)

Big Daddy Frank,
If you check out the Symposium DVD set, my first seminar I go counter disarms and the four options you have.  Or talk to me about coming out there.     Have fun at the Arnis fest.
Yours,
Dan


----------



## Cruentus (Oct 15, 2003)

Actually...since we are on the subject again...I have been doing disarm counters lately. The reason is that I have been getting quite a few students from other arnis schools lately who have been interested in learning how to defend against them.

Plus...I have found that I now teach counters synonomusly with the disarms because it helps my students to better understand the context of the disarm.

What I mean by "context" is that not every disarm will be effective with every opponent or circumstance...so by understanding 2 or 3 ways you COULD be countered, you understand when the disarm may be appropriate and when it wouldn't be.

For instance...#1 is a sweet disarm against any opponent. If done correctly, it is quick, and even an experienced stick player could fall for it. Plus, it is easy to abort the technique if the experienced player catches on.

#3, however, is not so good against an experienced stick player. Not only can it be countered in many ways, but the person attempting the #3 is pretty well commited into the technique, making it difficult to abort the technique, or 'counter the counter.' However, #3 is still great to learn. Not only would it work against the average stick player, but it is a great technique modified w/ empty hand vs. stick, or empthand/stick vs. another heavier weapon (club, longer stick, shovel, etc.).

I guess I am saying that disarms all have there place, and understanding where each one "fits" can be discovered well from learning how they can be countered.


----------



## Guro Harold (Oct 15, 2003)

Though not labeld as such, from my memory, it seems that GM Remy Presas extended the Disarms-Counter Disarms with the basic Counter to the counter disarms in the BlackBelt video series.

Basically, he shortened some of the circles and emphasized hitting the approaching countering hand.

Example: Counter to disarm #1 counter
--------------------------------------------------
- As you prepare to perform a #1 Disarm ( left hand controlling your opponent's stick as your right hand is blocking your stick opponent's with both sticks making a X or T),  if you witness your opponent closing the gap, immediately insert your punyo behind opponent's thumb and perform either a #6 disarm (for some  ) or #11 (for others ).

Instead of performing it as a long crossada open action, immediately  torque both of your wrists down toward your opponent to either disarm or control/break opponent's thumb.

Palusut


----------

