# Martial arts and Christianity?



## wayne

Would you say that Marial arts are AGAINST christianity? My dance instructor used to be a dedicated marital artist but then he left it all for Christianity.

He said that "martial arts has a spirit attached to it, and that spirit is not Christian". He also said that "i left martial arts because i cant serve 2 masters (2 faiths)

What is your opinion on this??? Do you agree or dissagree with these statements

wayne

p.s i love BOTH


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## Cthulhu

Since I can't say anything nice about people like that, I'll simply say that I disagree.

Cthulhu


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## GouRonin

I have to go with that. I disagree too. I'm NOT a christian by the way. I guess I just damned myself eh?


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## arnisador

I've heard it both ways. Robert Bussey left ninjutsu due to his religious beliefs (he claims), yet one often sees some variation on "Karate for Christ". I personally don't see the conflict in most cases--for some arts, possibly.

I will say that the martial arts has had more impact on my philosophy of daily life than any other activity, interest, or experience(s) I've had. For one thing, every time I refrain from smacking some imbecile who richly deserves it it is _because_ of my martial arts training and the confidence I have derived from it. But it has affected my views much more broadly. A kung fu instructor who continually emphasized the importance of seeing the good and the bad in every person--a yin/yang idea--comes to mind. I apply that lesson often--especially when I am angry with or annoyed by someone.


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## Bob Hubbard

> _Originally posted by wayne _
> *Would you say that Marial arts are AGAINST christianity? My dance instructor used to be a dedicated marital artist but then he left it all for Christianity.
> 
> He said that "martial arts has a spirit attached to it, and that spirit is not Christian". He also said that "i left martial arts because i cant serve 2 masters (2 faiths)
> *



Ok....I'm going to quantify this first:  I'm not a Christian. I have read their bible, and have had several very long and interesting discussions with several members of the "born again" flavor.

In my experience, those that proclaim so loudly that something is "against christianity", do no understand christianity itself.  These "pious" individuals, "sacrifice" for god the things they loved...and would love to make you as miserable as they are by "saving" you.  

Given the vast number of martial arts out there, and the fact that many of them come from practical sefl defence ideals, I'm 100% positive that he could find one that would allow him to do both.  

Does martial arts have a spirit attached to it?  yes an  no.  It depends on the art.

Is that spirit Christian?  again, it depends.  If you mean the "Turn the other cheek" part, which has been misunderstood to imply you can not defend or protect yourself, then, if you misunderstand this, then yes, its against -your- version of xianism.

A deep understanding of martial techniques can allow you the means to get yourself or your family out of sticky situations, and perhaps with little or no harm.  

And to me, that follows a deeper law "Harm None."

Peace.  (and a merry christmas to all my christian friends) 

:asian:


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## Mao

I have been asked how I reconcile the two several times. It's not that tough. For the record, I am a Christian. I attend church regularly. I believe in the bible. I also believe that I have been given certain gifts, two of which are family and friends. I believe that I have the responsibility to love, nurture and protect these gifts in honor of He who gave them to me. Martial arts is one way that I can do this. I do this to the best of my ability. One more thing. Being a Christian does not make us perfect. There are those who think we should be more than human. I better watch out or I'll end up on a :soapbox:  and I don't want to.


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## Shotochem

Greetings to all, I dont get it ?  I cant see why ones religious beliefs would contrast with MAs.  If one has a pacifistic belief would karate not fit in?  The spirit we develop is not a religious one, just whats inside us I equate it to guts, heart, or that  never quit second wind that we all get.     

 Ill leave the zen to the zen-masters,
                                  Lou,


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## Mao

I have had people come to me saying that they would like to learn, but do not want any of the "eastern religion".  My response has been that m.a.'s is not a religious thing to me. I have only known maybe 1 person in nearly 30 years of training that considers it such. I have the honor, blessing of being able to at least have a better shot at protecting those near and dear to me through this tool.  Those near and dear to me, I cherish. They are the most important thing in this life to me. I feel a certain sense of responsiblilty to, as I said,  love, nurture, and protect them.  And crush the spines of those that would hurt them!  :armed: :samurai:  I think that the way we live our lives speaks louder about our spiritual selves than the fact that we practice martial arts.  Consider this; We can be likened to full cups. When we get bumped people see what spills out. 
Wow, that was deep.....and it hurt.  

 Easy Renegade, I'm not talkin' sex.


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## DWright

I agree that our actions tell more about us then our church going habits.  However,  MA and Christianity do occassionaly come together.  A local church recently held a full day workshop on
MA's and todays religion.   The guests were martial artists from various styles, and the bottom line was that the two can be part of our lifestyle.  Lightning won't strike just because you practice a martial art.


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## Samurai

OK-- I am a Christian and a PASTOR (Super Christan)  

Let me start by saying that I practice my martial arts in the church and I have been for about 10 years.  Only one time did I have anyone question me on this practice.  We had a "talk"  

Several times I have used martial arts principles or concepts in the pulpit preaching.  Just last week I was talking about the Christmas story (Jesus born in a manger,etc.).  I pointed to a Nativity scene and talked about the PEACE ON EARTH and SILENT NIGHT and JOY TO THE WORLD that his perfect sacrifice (Jesus) brings.  I then asked the people to look behind that PEACE and see the battle raging in the heavenly realms.  Hell was attacking Jesus that day and for the rest of his earthly life.  If you do not believe this, remember that Herod killed all the babies under 2 years old in a effort to kill Jesus....after that Jesus was tempted in the desert...then the cross.  I talked about "The Law opposing opposites" (Yin and Yang).  On one hand PEACE ON EARTH on the other hand WAR IN THE HEAVENS.
:soapbox: 

For a good link that explains a Christian point of view, check out this article written by Bob Orlando (Kuntao, Silat)

http://www.orlandokuntao.com/christian_concerns.html

Thanks
Jeremy Bays


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## Despairbear

Greetings,

Each person must make their own decsicion, and right or wrong they must live by it. Religion, martial arts, or what to have for dinner the same is true.





Despair Bear


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## GouRonin

...dinner...

Yum!

:cheers:


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## Cthulhu

I have heard of kids who couldn't take a martial arts class because their parents claimed the meditation done in the classes was against their religious beliefs.  How in hell can simple meditation be against any religious beliefs.  I do not recall seeing a 'Thou shalt not meditate' last time I looked.

Some say the bowing done in many Asian arts is against their beliefs.  They claim it's a sign of worship to the instructor, or whatever.  Horse sh!t.  It's simply showing respect to the person who has chosen to share their art with you.  I never worshipped my instructor; I merely showed him the respect he was due.  Using this logic, it would be against many people's religion to join the military, as saluting an officer could be construed as an act of worship.  Humbug!

The only style I know of that tried to force any belief system on its practitioners was Chung Moo Do.  For those of you that remember that fiasco, I don't think I need to say more.

Cthulhu
just got back from work and I'm winding down.


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## Shotochem

Greetings all, 
I personally train with many people who
are orthodox jews.  They will not bow to
the dead guys during seiza.  They will nod to sensei and the rest of us while kneeled.  When we are standing and practicing our drills they will bow to us and sensei as we do to them.  They told me that bowing to each other on an equal basis shows respect, while kneeling and bowing in their personal belief would be considered against their
belief.  It generally depends on the person and the way they feel.  They also tend to not spar with the women in our dojo because they consider this disrespectful  for a man to strike at a women.  (I just think our women are to dangerous.  )
                                        Lou


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## Jay Bell

Hi Lou,

I'm good friends with an Orthodox Jew that studies Goju ryu.  They (of course) are very strict in their beliefs.  Bowing, often even touching a woman is forbidden.  I think it's great though that he is still training.

It would be very easy for him to say, "It's too much hassle and conflict"...instead he keeps going.


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## Bob Hubbard

I think the key is to find a way to follow your beliefs, while studying.  Myself, I follow a pacifistic system, yet study various martial arts.  1 could say that is a contradiction....and I would agree.  Yet, there are many ways to defend oneself and family without going lethal.  Akido and Tai Chi come to mind.

Its possible...just takes some thought.


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## IFAJKD

First I have to say ....WOW ! I have been away from this site too long. This is great that we can discuss such things. I have to say that I am a Christian and it works for me. Martial Arts for me is both seperate and connected. I believe that first on a practical level, martial arts is a tool that was used by individuals who were first monks and in using this tool, many have associated a connection between the two. Second when you train in something you love so much it becomes a part of you and nothing becomes seperate and disconnected. In doing so it works with eachother not in conflict. I don't see martial arts as serving a master. or respect for an Instructor as serving a master. There is a difference. 
This rigid belief of either/or is plain unhealthy and given that, not too "christian like" as I see it. Nor is it the sign of a mature martial artist. Be like water. 
walk on


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## wayne

I personally believe that martial arts can be anything YOU want them to be.

Some people see it as a hobbie, passtime, relaxation, a life style, maybe a religious beliefe system in some cases, or even a sport (which i personally disagree with - just my view)

I think its up to you, you make it what you want it to be. It will become anything you want it to become

wayne

p.s thanks for the replies everyone :asian:


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## tshadowchaser

I once moved to Florida to study with someone I had known for some time. It took me 3 days to get my stuff together and get there. When I arrived th told me he was closeing his school because he could no longer teach how to maim and kill.While I was in route to his place he had got religion. Now I do not say that as a slam or in any disrespect. He had a 'religious experence"that changed the way he viewed the world .His new found world was in conflict with his old. That was 20+ years ago and he is still true to whatever he found back then.
Personaly I belive that unless you are teaching in a church, for the church, you should keep religion out of the Martial art schools. disscusion on the nature of man, how to be a better person, meditation, the opening of awarness ,etc. are acceptible.
I think long term exposure to the arts and the knowledge of what can be accomplished through the arts may open a person to examin within themsleves, and isnt that what religion is anyway?
Just my 222cents woth.
Shadow


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## disciple

Just to add my opinion...I have seen schools where the salute is accompanied with a saying from a certain religion. But from my experience this saying is not really religious anymore, but more like a greeting to show your respect to the person with that religion (such as saying merry christmas to everybody although you are not christian). And the students are not forced to follow the religion or even taught the religion.

Also, I dont know about martial arts from other countries, but I believe in ancient China, one of the ways to spread religion is through martial arts, such as shaolin, wutang, etc.


salute

:asian:


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## Turner

I am Apostolic Pentecostal, son of a Minister, 'called' into the ministry and a Martial Artist to boot. Christianity and the Martial Arts are two different animals and should be treated that way. There are a few pitfalls that a Christian must watch out for in the study of the martial arts, but you have more pitfalls in your daily life.

Problems that I've faced: 

Bowing: I do not believe that it is appropriate for a Christian to show such reverence/submission to anyone/anything aside from God. Many people will counter by saying that the bow is not a symbol of supplication but is rather the oriental equivelant of a handshake. That is what it has become, but it started as a way of offering your life to someone by exposing your neck so that your head could be chopped off. As a Christian, my life is not mine to offer, it is Gods to do with as He pleases. There are have been times when my beliefs have kept me from participating in classes or events and that is fine. Due to the high value of martial skill to me, I have to offer him more than what he might charge... In the form of loyalty and an obligation... I am indebted to him. If a man has shown that he does not respect my beliefs and will turn me away because I worship differently than he, then he is not the type of man I should be indebted to. Simple as that. I offer no arguements and no complaints. I walk away and find what I need elsewhere.

Meditation: As an instructor I don't have my students meditate because my classes are too short. At two hours long, they are longer than all of the other local instructors provide (which I can't understand, 1.5 hour classes are worthless to me.) but are still not long enough to share everything that I might want to share in a day. Something is going to get thrown out and meditation is one of those things.
   I often get asked by other Christian martial artists whether or not meditation is wrong, my answer is simple... It depends what you are meditating on. Eastern philosophy has it that you empty your mind and strive to have no thought, no desire, and no purpose, however the Bible exhorts you to meditate upon God all the day long.  Putting aside our desire to be Christ-like and our purpose in life (To be positive Ambassadors for God) is something that we should not do. So when your instructor asks you to meditate, take that time to meditate on God. Instead of thinking nothing, allow your mind to dwell upon The Everything. You will find the same peace and relaxation as they do.

Thou shalt have no other gods before me:
  Many Christians will look at this and say "Huh, what does this have to do with the martial arts?" Well, the study of the martial arts is a way of life. After many years of study, you will find that it becomes incorporated into everything that you do. You will use the theories in business, you will use the stances to make your everyday tasks more efficient, you will begin to use parts of your body to do things that will cause a lot of people to look at you strange if you do it in public. All of this is fine. (It better be or I am doomed.) The real issue is found in how big a part of you it becomes. Imagine that you are asked "How would you describe yourself?" What would your answer be? Being a Christian should be first and foremost. Then you can be a martial artist second. The top priority, the top love, the top passion in your life (as a Christian) should be God.
   I am not saying that you should attend church every single Sunday and Wednesday or you are condemned. If there is a seminar going to be in town on a Sunday and you will have to skip church to attend. Skip church. The church will be there next sunday, but the seminar won't. Now, if there is a class that you would like to attend that is on Sunday and that is the only time you can get to church... I would probably choose the Church. My eternal salvation is a little bit more important than my knowing how to remain alive in a conflict.
   Being a good Christian doesn't mean that you have to take offense at things all the time. Matter of fact, very little should offend you. Compassion, forgiveness, understanding... these are your traits, not close-mindedness and finger pointing. Being overly pios or pompous isn't good either. Remember that if you are claiming to striving to be Christ-like, people are looking at you to see if they can see Christ in you and how it has enriched your life. God knows each man by his heart. Man knows God by looking at how a Christian appears/acts.

For a Christian, the martial arts is a great way to get closer to God. Not only do you talk to him more (Oh God, please don't let him hit me hard. God, please don't make me have to uke with so-and-so.) you will learn many things about honor, ethics, and morality that will help you become a better person, hense a better witness.

One last pitfall, being too much of a witness:
  An extremely devout Christian will have such a love for God that he/she will want to share it with everyone. We must, though, remember the Biblical principles of moderation in all things that we do. To use an analogy, if I may, if one stuffs themselves with too much food the body will regurgitate that food. If you try to force your beliefs down someones throat, like the body does to too much food, the person will reject it.
  Shorinji Kempo was a martial art that was created to be a vehicle to attempt to rebuild the confidence and character of Japanese youth. I believe that there are plenty more martial arts that were used as a vehicle to expose people to a philisophical or religious point of view. Because of this there are many people who believe that the Martial Arts and Religion are inseperable. To a certain extent this is true because when you deal with matters of death/killing, you will need a moral compass to follow. However, I find it reprehensible for people to have an alterior motive for teaching the martial arts. There are plenty of Christian martial artists out there that require memory verses for rank promotion and will often teach Christian principles in their class. If the class is a closed class/Bible-study, its all good. If the class is open to the public with intent of bringing others to Christ, its not a good thing. You should strive to be a good witness in a martial arts setting by presenting yourself as a role model for others to follow. I am Apostolic Pentecostal and it is something that I am proud of, however I rarely initiate a discussion about religion with anyone. Like any other Christian, I am tasked with the responsibility of "Preaching the Gospel to all the world." As one of the parables puts it, this is bearing fruit. A good christian will bear good fruit. To have a little bit of fun with this Parable... thinking of a tree, what determines whether a branch will bear good fruit? Go look at a tree that has fruit. There will be some branches that have loads of fruit and there will be those deformed, misshapen, gnarled up branches that have no fruit at all. Whats causes a branch to bear good fruit? A healthy connection to the trunk! I'm not going to win people to my side by shaking my leaves at them. I'm going to win them because I have a good connection to the trunk. So I say, in a martial arts class... Focus on the martial arts. Some people take that class because they want to be prepared for combat. Focus on getting them prepared to defend themselves and then, because you have a good connection to the trunk, they start asking you about your religion and what you believe... then you can start talking to them.

Again, sorry for being so long-winded... I think too much.


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by wayne _
> 
> *Would you say that Marial arts are AGAINST christianity? My dance instructor used to be a dedicated marital artist but then he left it all for Christianity.
> 
> He said that "martial arts has a spirit attached to it, and that spirit is not Christian". He also said that "i left martial arts because i cant serve 2 masters (2 faiths)
> 
> What is your opinion on this??? Do you agree or dissagree with these statements
> 
> wayne
> 
> p.s i love BOTH *



I would say that it depends on the MA and the christian style.
MA as taught in Japan is influenced by the japanese culture. And some people feel that their cultur is full of religion. Alot of the japanese way is to have respect and "laws & rules" for everything. Where westerners feel that since they have to follow rules(can be read as respect) in every aspect, they think of it as an religion.

On the other hand , if someone pratices Chritianaty, and believe that everthing should be dictated by "God", then anything else than there own reigion is wrong.

I believe that the 2 can be combined, but if you want to understand (the really gut understanding)of MA, you'll have to relate to the more "relegious" part.

/Yari


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *
> Meditation: As an instructor I don't have my students meditate because my classes are too short. At two hours long, they are longer than all of the other local instructors provide (which I can't understand, 1.5 hour classes are worthless to me.) but are still not long enough to share everything that I might want to share in a day. Something is going to get thrown out and meditation is one of those things.
> Again, sorry for being so long-winded... I think too much. *



Hi Tuner

I don't agree with you, but I don't find that an issues, 'cause I think it's a question of belife, and your belife is as good as anyone elses. 

But I wanted to elaborate on the meditation stuff you wrote.
I've been taght that meditation is not a means of removing or becoming blank. It's more like a bottle that's full of water and sand. If you stress, then the water is mucky, but leaving the bottle , the sand will fall down and you can see through the bottle, ie. seeing clearly. So in that sense meditation can be used for anybody. If you put religious stuff into the meditation, of course it'll be religious then. 

/Yari


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## thdelambert

I practice Tai Ji Qan and I am  a Christian ; I can honnestly say that no, Martial Arts are not agaisnt christianity and christianity is not against Martial Arts. 

Martail Arts are ways to feel better, increase the love for different culture and others people. And Catholic religion says the same. So I really don't think ther is a problem. 

By the way, I am a new member, I am french, I am 25, I practice Tai Ji Qan for 7 years now. 

I am sorry, my english is not very good but I will practice, I promise


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## Cthulhu

I don't think Turner was saying that martial arts are 'against' Christianity, just that some martial _artists_ seem to be against his conviction to his beliefs in connection to their Asian customs.

From what I gathered, Turner seems to be advocating a kind of 'separation of Church and State', but with the martial arts instead.

I am not a Christian, though I come from a Catholic family.  I've also never had to confront the issues that have been brought forth.  I think Turner's post has given me a better insight into the mind of a person who is a devout Christian and dedicated martial artist.  I think I'd now be better prepared if such a student were to present themselves to me.

Thanks, Turner!

Cthulhu


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## thdelambert

First, thanks for the explanation. I did not understand that. I think it might be difficult to be able to draw a line between your beliefs and the way you practice martial arts. 
In France, I know that a lot of personns have difficulties with the fact that you have to call your teacher sifu or senseï. 
Is it the same where you practice ? 

Thib


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## Klondike93

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> 
> *Since I can't say anything nice about people like that, I'll simply say that I disagree.
> 
> Cthulhu *



Bingo!!!!  couldn't have said it better, that reflects my thoughts.


:asian:


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## disciple

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> * Many people will counter by saying that the bow is not a symbol of supplication but is rather the oriental equivelant of a handshake. That is what it has become, but it started as a way of offering your life to someone by exposing your neck so that your head could be chopped off *



I disagree with this statement. If you really learn how to bow carefully, your eyes NEVER EVER leave the opponent. So even if you bow, you still pay attention to the opponent and your head won't get chopped off. :samurai: 

salute

:asian: (but still paying attention to you )


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## tshadowchaser

I bow to show respect.
I bow in respect.
I bow to acknowledge my partner,my instructor, my heritage.
I bow to my enemy because I still respect him for standing across from me (not stabbing me in the back.
Hell I bow going into stores, schools, when addressing anyone my senior in age (boy dose that limit it)
I do not feel this disrespects my belifes because I do not bow to the above in place of my belifes nor do I put the above on a higher plan.
Each to there own and I respect everyones right to fell as they do
Shadow:asian:


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## Chiduce

Well, this is a great and powerful question. Since the beginning of man christianity has had it's bloodshed. This will continue until the end of time! Now in the present tense, Christianity and the Martial Arts have been hand in hand for centuries. The Boy Scouts Of America introduced physical exercise in their beginning training manual. Since the scouts started in Jolly Old England the first scouting martial arts experience was learning the movements of the quarterstaff. This ideal brought many american young men and women (girl scouts) as well to their respective understanding of a martial way within the west in the early days of scouting! Now scouting usually is backed by religious institutionalism. So, it also can be assumed the church, here and all abroad support combative ways of not only the military, militia for the cause of freedom, justice, and equal rights. Let us not forget that the catholic church once trained assassins to do their bidding. This is fact in the history of religion and the world. Especially true for the old monarchy of england. I'am a baptist christian and teach 2 ordained decons. I also attend serivces regularly and see the different opinions of those whom confess christianity only for moral issues and reasons. The bible teaches to love, honor, and respect. yet it also states that you must not be moved in your walk through life with Him. The bible teaches obedience to God and country and fellow man. Does martial arts not reveal these same principles in living? The Bible speaks and teaches about the consequences of living within the world! Does not the martial arts speak and teach these same principles? Does not the biblical teachings and martial teachings separate us from the evil and wickedness of others if we study their teachings and have revealed to our spirits revelations of good intent and deed? In disgust, does not the christian become as evil and wicked as the world? I do not mean to step on any toes by this post. I only wish to set the record straight about our spiritual likeness to the Almighty. Yes, we can  Even Rain Fire And Brimestone! Sabba papassa akaranam; or;  Avoid all evil! Sincerely, In Humility; Chiduce!


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## donald

Originally posted by Turner
There are plenty of Christian martial artists out there that require memory verses for rank promotion and will often teach Christian principles in their class. If the class is a closed class/Bible-study, its all good. If the class is open to the public with intent of bringing others to Christ, its not a good thing.



Turner,
First let me say hello brother! I am a Pentecostal believer too, and have at times struggled with the compatability of m.a. training. Although these days I am, by God's grace more at peace about it. I truly enjoyed most of your post. With the exception of the above quote. My thinking is very much along the lines you mentioned. Using the m.a. class to further the Gospel. My reasoning for this approach. Is to expose the Gospel to someone who may not enter a church, but has a curiosity about the martial arts!!! Thereby using the m.a. s' as a 2 pronged tool. Both for excercise, and as a ministering tool. I truly enjoy the martial arts, and hope that by God's grace I can reach someone for Him through the training. Are you a kenpo practioner by chance? It does'nt really matter, but I am curious. Thank you for your time, and thank you fellow m.a.tlk. posters.
Salute in Christ,
Donald


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## Kirk

Donald, do you think it fair that a satanist open up an m.a. 
school with that same notion?  Is to expose the satanic gospel to someone who may not enter an occult church, but has a curiosity about the martial arts?  I'm a christian myself, but if I walked into
your school, and was asked "do you have a personal relationship
with Jesus Christ?" I would IMMEDIATELY feel swindled!  Yes, the 
bible says to bear witness, but it doesn't say to do it under the
guise of anything other than what it is.  I challenge you to give
me gospel where any prophet or Jesus acted in this way?  Where
they brought people in saying "free food" or whatever, and then
said "while you're eating this, let me tell you about the Gospel".
If you make it known you're a christian, and one of your students
asks you about it, fine.  But bringing it up to a student who's just
there to learn M.A. ... just sounds wrong to me.


Peace


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I challenge you to give
> me gospel where any prophet or Jesus acted in this way?  Where
> they brought people in saying "free food" or whatever, and then
> said "while you're eating this, let me tell you about the Gospel".*



Ah yes, the lesson of _Major Barbara_. Certainly this is something commonly done today in many settings.

I wouldn't mix the martial arts with something else but I can't imagine any abstract reason for not doing so--the martial arts are more sold on their exercise strengths to adults and grade/behaviour improvement effects to kids, after all. If someone wants to mix preaching and the martial arts, that's fine--it's a private club, not a public school. It would likely drive me away but that's my choice.


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## Klondike93

I have to agree with arnisador, I don't think you should mix martial arts with religon. I am not a religous person at all, but that aside, if you start preaching the bible then you what about the muslems in your school, or the jews, or? You can see where this creates problems.  When I was learning to be a bartender I was told there are 2 rules.  
1. Never discuss politics whith the customer
2. Never discuss religon with the customer
I've always attempted to do this because, everyone has an oppinion and their's is always right to them.

:shrug: 


:asian:


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## Shotochem

IMHO I believe we take MAs to be something mystical and a spiritual thing when they are just FIGHTING SYSTEMS that were designed to cause your enemy harm and protect yourself.

Sometimes all is as it seems.....

It may be that simple.....:asian: :asian:


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## Kirk

> _Originally Posted By: Arnisador_
> If someone wants to mix preaching and the martial arts, that's fine--it's a private club, not a public school.



You are correct there, I don't argue.  But it's 1) bad business ..
would you buy a tub from a man that said "come in a great a 
lifetime warranty on a tub,  installed free, and a free dishwasher
with it" and when you got there, it's a 30 day warranty, 100 bucks
extra for installation, and no dishwasher?  2) immoral .. it's a lie.
If you present yourself as a martial arts school, and never 
mention christianity until you've been signed up .. then you're
conning your students.  And that's just plain wrong!  I'd have
no problem at all (and might even sign up) if they advertised,
or had a sign on the door saying "This is a Christian Martial
Arts School.  Both Christianity and Martial Arts are taught here.
They go hand in hand in this school".


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## deadhand31

donald, i have to agree with everyone on this. i'm christian, but i would never engage in such a decietful tactic. using the martial arts as a "2 pronged tool"? are you kidding me???? prongs are for stabbing, not teaching. when i go to my school, i go to learn tkd, and get along with my fellow students. if religion should come up, i'll discuss, and keep an open mind. however, if my instructor were to start making it part of class, and make gospel memorization mandatory, i would leave, and file with the better business bureau. if a person has an interest in the martial arts, help him strengthen that interest. if he should happen to have an interest in christianity, help him strengthen that, too. don't use deception. from my understanding, it's the dark side that uses deception.


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Shotochem _
> 
> *IMHO I believe we take MAs to be something mystical and a spiritual thing when they are just FIGHTING SYSTEMS that were designed to cause your enemy harm and protect yourself.
> 
> *



We'll maybe they started off like that, and then I agree. But most japanese systems today have a lot more to offer than just fighting, and I think if you ask most teachers they'll tell you you can learn much more than fighting from most styls.

On the other hand. I'm not Christian, so maybe that's why I can take the stand I do. But if any MA dojo started telling me a "religion", I'll take it as a personal agenda. Because after at least 20 years of MA, I beleive that MA isn't a religion, but what you make it out to be (like everything else, just like religion).

/Yari


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## Turner

Good Evening All,

   I emphatically agree with the majority of those that have posted when talking about using the Martial Arts as a vehicle to bring others to Christ. I place my position as a man of God first in my life, but when it comes to teaching my Kenpo classes I do not speak about religion unless it is to answer questions of students who might worry if it is against their beliefs.
   I do find it immoral, plain and simple, to use my class to spread the Gospel. There are exceptions to this... for example, if you advertise very openly and plainly that it is your intent to help people develop a closer relationship with God. Its not something that you only tell those people that come into your school asking for information on your style.. its something that should be posted very plainly on your doors, advertisements, and any other promotional material. Let people know before they walk in the door that they are going to be exposed to your faith.
   You shouldn't need to require memory verses or other religious information as part of the curriculum in order to witness to people. Your relationship with God should be revealed in your every action. If you provide a shining light, others will naturally be attracted to you. I've moved around a lot in my life and I've had the opportunity to meet a lot of people. Now, I am not one that ever speaks of my religion first because I know that really puts people off and will turn them away from what I say for more times than it will actually interest someone. However, in meeting new people; in class or at work, people will easily identify me as a Pentecostal and will initiate religious conversation. 
   From the Christian perspective, the best way to be a witness is to live your life with a deep love for God and having the truth people will see it in you and ask you to share it. If you need tactics and strategy to get people inside your church doors, you've already got problems and need to be thinking about strengthening your connection to the trunk, using the same analogy as before.

   About bowing... Each of us have our own beliefs on this subject. Even Christians will differ on whether or not bowing is something that we should do. In my studies of Goju-Ryu and many other styles I bowed and thought nothing of it. Without realizing that it was an issue with people, I began to have an issue with it. To be religious, I would say that God began to deal with me about it. I was reminded of the story Mordecai and Haman and how old Mordecai refused to bow down to this guy. Why? It was just against their beliefs. Haman didn't think he was a God, he was just the kings pet. Just a man, but Mordecai didn't bow down to him and was ready to die for his beliefs. Why did Shadrach, Meshach and Abednigo get thrown into the furnace? Because they refused to bow down to King, Daniel got thrown into the Lions den for now bowing down to the same King. (Now this King thought highly of himself even to the point that he proclaimed himself as God, but if you read the Bible you'll see that he knew that Daniel's God was the one true God.) All of these guys refused to bow to men and these are the basic Bible stories we teach our young... why is it that we seem to forget this when we enter into Martial Art class. Bowing is bowing. Whether you agree with History or not, the Japanese bow WAS showing reverence for someone by offering their life to them. Because of its frequent use and the lack of swords in our environment this has become forgotten.. But so has the purpose of a salute and handshake. A salute was the basic motion of the Knights raising his visor in order to show other knights that he was a friend. Two enemies clasped hands while in conversation to demonstrate that they weren't armed and this became the common handshake. Bowing is something that I am strongly against and so I will avoid doing it.

   I am so thankful to be in a free country, because there will be many people that will disagree with me. Luckily we have the rights to our own beliefs and our own ways of doing things. I'm glad I'm not in Pakistan where I have to worry about a grenade being thrown into my church because I serve God differently. I get ridiculed because of the lengths at which my church goes in order to do right in Gods eyes, because many think we go too far. My friend, I'd rather go to far and do too much then to fall short in the end. When it comes to Kenpo I get ridiculed for my way of doing things, I stand strong in my place because I do what I feel is right and good and so I don't feel threatened by others opinions. I am glad when people come to me with both negative and positive statements because I think it is wonderful that people have the freedom to do so. We all have the right to agree or disagree and that is just plain awesome!


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *Two enemies clasped hands while in conversation to demonstrate that they weren't armed and this became the common handshake. *



This may be true for a western way, but eastern is bowing , no handshaking at all. It has come to the eastern way by western influence, but no handhshaking. So if were looking back in historie for answers, your very impolite not to "shake hands(read bow)" with people. So the other way around would be that somebody stopped shaking your hand because it's a certain religion,...........

A bow is many things, not just 1 thing. Try handshaking with a person who never has handshaked before, and you'll notice that handshaking is an undefined art: how long do you hold, how tight, both hands , which hand , and so on. Same way with bowing. If you bow to SHOW your neck that means you giving your life, or in other terms: Your showing yourself not to be better than the other, and are willing to let the other pass first.
I beleive that thinking you are better than others is not a part of christianity, but correct me if I'm wrong. 

I agree on looking at why things are as they are today, but defineing things from what there were, and not what they are, I don't agree. If i agree on that handshaking is invading a persons social sphere with alle my pupils, then thats the rule. If we agree on that the bow is only to show respekt, and to say sorry for any inconviences I might put you under while praticing together, and saying sorry for any bruses I gave you , when your finished praticing, then that's that.

It's like changing the meaning of a word, just because it meant something different for 100 years ago. Like the word vulgar(sp?). In daily speach I think it means something not nice, something estrem, but the correct usage is that it means simple. Now how would it look if some people went around and used the correct meaning, while everbody else used the meaning we all use?

I just want to close off with that I'm not trying to disrespect Tuner, or hos belife, but to tell how I feel and see the world. Tuner gave me just the possiblity.

No intention to hurt or anything against Tuner!

HUmbly
Yari


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## Turner

How many people in this forum teach or have heard Ethics and Morality taught in their martial arts classes aside from religious implications?

   Morality and Ethics are different from religion and I feel that they are subjects that should be taught in the classroom. Religion in the Martial Art classroom detracts from intention of the class, which is to teach someone how to defend themselves if a situation arises, however Morality and Ethics enhance the study of the Martial Arts because it not only teaches the students when it is right and good to use their skill and it also teaches them how to become better leaders and to have a strong character.

   I've studied Goju-Ryu Karate, Tang Soo Do, Ninjitsu, Hapkido, Aikido, Shorinji Kempo and more for many years at a time and found that it was quite interesting how they claimed that they taught the students respect, integrity, and built character but never once were these topics discussed. I think morality and ethics are the instructors of Martial Arts responsibility. Who else is going to share that?
   Schools? I know none of that was covered in any classes I took in school. Teachers are more interested in keeping the kids quiet and out of trouble than in being moral or ethical compasses.
   Churches? This is something that the church should cover, but it seems more and more that churches are focused on telling the congregation how much God loves them and cares about them instead of telling them what is expected out of them as a human being.
   Parents? These are the other people that should have the responsibility, but you can't teach what you don't know.
   Role models? The Heros of the kids are sports, movie, or music stars. More often than not these heros show a serious lacking in character, morality, and ethics. Drugs, lack of integrity, and immorality run rampant.

   Who is left? You are! If you teach or even are a senior student in a martial arts class, your juniors look up to you and look at you for guidance in all aspects of life. Your actions are under scruitiny and it will have an impact on the next generation. Ethics and Morality are a large part of what a warrior is all about. You have the right and the responsibility to let your students know where you stand on these issues. You have the responsibility to ensure they know what respect, integrity, and honor is all about. Make sure that you teach it in more places than bowing/shaking hands/calling elders "Sir" or "Ma'am".

Respect:
   A man is stopped at a stoplight and a car pulls up next him blaring rap music so loud that the car seems like its bouncing with the rhythm. The man looks towards the car with annoyance. When the light changes he drives down the road and pulls into a gas station to get a gallon of milk. When he is almost to his car, the driver of the other car bashes him in the back of the head with the butt of the pistol and then points it to his head and shouts "Respect me, FOOL!"
   This is an example of respect going awry. We all know who has the problem with respect. The first "respect infraction" is when the one turned up his music so loud. Loud music is a sign of disdain and a serious lack of respect towards all those around them. A person has the right to listen to what he wants to listen to, but his right can not infringe on anyone elses rights... In this case its the other drivers right to NOT listen to the music.
   Then he has the misconception that he deserves to be respected. Why must the other respect him? He hasn't earned respect in any way. Having a gun and using violence doesn't teach respect for the person, instead it lowers the respect for the person. The only respect is for the gun or for the violence. When it comes to respect it is something that each individual should earn, but it should be automatically given all others. I'm saying that I respect you right off the bat because you've done nothing for me to lose that respect, but I don't expect you to respect me because I need to earn it. That is what respect and humility is all about. Give freely, but never expect anything to be given to you. This ties in perfectly with the next attribute of Honor; Obligation.

Obligation:
   If anyone gives you anything you are obligated to repay it in some form or another. A simple rule to live by is that nothing in life is ever free... If someone gives you something without obligation to repay in some form, you should be indebted to them doubly because of it. If you can't repay the debt to them, repay it to another person or two. If everyone learns this simple principle, life would be so much better. When you give, don't expect it to be repaid. Just like respect, you should give things freely, but earn what is given to you.
   Obligation and the workplace; This is an issue that I have run into time and time again. People discuss work with me and tell me that they don't work as hard as they could because they don't feel as if they are getting paid as much as they should be. This especially happens when someone finds out that someone else is getting paid more than they are. This shows a serious lack in character. You are being given something... money for performing a service. You agreed on the amount of money and so you are obligated to perform that service to the best of your ability. If you think you should be getting paid more, go look for a job elsewhere. I don't even believe in asking for a raise. If your boss thinks you deserve to make more, he'll give you a raise (if he's honest). If he's not honest or you need more money, go find another job. The only case to ask for a raise is when a change in your life situation means that you can't survive with how much you are getting paid. Then you go to your boss and let him know that you need more money or you are going to have to leave the job in search of a better paying one.
   Obligation and Integrity: This two go hand in hand because you are obligated to be honest. Unless you live on a deserted isle or have really messed up in your life, there is someone that looks up to you. Because they trust that your word is honest and correct, you are obligated to them to make your word honest and correct. This applies in the workplace too. If your boss asks how much time it will take to get the project done, don't pad it, but tell him the truth. In looking for a job, don't tell them you have experience in something when you really don't.  In the world of the martial arts, don't tell parents that you teach respect, integrity, and character when you really don't. Don't tell them you teach self defense when all you teach is aerobic kickboxing. Don't tell them that your class costs $50 a month when you have hidden charges like promotion tests, belts, and etc. If you can't tell, I think it is very decietful to tell someone that they have to earn a rank but turn around and charge them the promotion test. As an instructor I know that it doesn't cost much to get the certificate and the belt. I am glad to provide those for free to my students because they are already paying for my class, I am not going to charge extra for something they have earned with sweat and a little bit of blood. If you can't handle the costs of the belts and certificates, raise your monthly price to cover the costs of running your school. It might not attract as many people, but at least you're being honest when you tell people how much it costs to take your class.

Character:
   What is it? I've looked all over but can't really find a good example of what character is all about... so I'll give you my point of view: "Character is the manner in which you respond to pressure."
   A person with good character will demonstrate these characteristics; Authority, Service, Truth, and Potential.

-Authority: A person with good character will be a natural leader. When pressure is applied, he/she will take charge and act with authority while others only contibute to chaos.
-Service: A person with good character will put others before him/her self. He/she will lead, not for the glory, honor, or prestige, but will lead because it benifits others.
-Truth: A person with good character will be true to him/herself. He/she will do what he/she believes is right and will not sway because of the opinions of others. Always steadfast and sure.
-Potential: A person with good character will recognize that he/she has potential and will leave the comforts of the habits most of us get into in order to realize their fullest potential. He/she will be openminded enough to learn, but will not compromise personal beliefs.

Put all of these together and you've got about 1/100th of what being a warrior is all about.

Your opinions?


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## Turner

In response to Yari:

   Good points, and no disrespect or harm done to me. My way is not better that yours. I believe eachs persons right to do what they believe best.
   Bowing is against my religious convictions and so I can't do it. In my class we don't shake hands, salute, or bow in order to show respect. I don't require anyone to respect me, but I try to respect all people. If I required someone to bow, what if a Saudi Arabian muslim came to class? According to his Religion, bowing is wrong. And according to his culture shaking hands is improper? Should I require my class to do what is polite and proper in his culture... a kiss on the cheek? I couldn't because that is strange according to my culture... Wouldn't it be easier just to show respect by treating people with respect and knowing what respect is all about instead of trying to teach it through some frivilous gesture? 

  The only real issue I want to get across is that noone needs to be so stuck on tradition that the practices in your martial art class would be closed to a person of a certain faith. I've been turned away from classes because I can't and won't bow and that is a shame. Welcome all faiths and cultures with open arms and compromise so that everyone has the opportunity to learn from you.


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *How many people in this forum teach or have heard Ethics and Morality taught in their martial arts classes aside from religious implications?
> 
> Your opinions? *




We'll it shouldn't comes as any suprise. I have been very lucky to be able to have a very good teacher, who emphesized the mental part. It's the same teacher I quota in my sig.

But I have to agree, most schools don't teach or even have an idea what they stand for.


Concerning respect. I belive in respect or no respect. Either you have it or you don't. But there is something in between. It is just accepting, and not predejuce(sp?). Because respect is based on your assumption of somebody, and they best way for me and them to interact is to be free of predejuce. But we could be talk about defining words here, so we might agree on this.

I belive that all people should have respect, no matter what. BUT, they should not nessesarly have it the way they want it. Evreybody is a individual by themselvs, having a life and reality. I don't have the right to define what is right for them. But I respect them for what they are. 

Concerning obligation. That is a fixation. There are no obligations unless your belife says so. But there are consequenses. So if you react a certain way, you'll probalby get an reaction. The question is is it what you want.

This may be a question of my misunderstanding, but Truth....
I don't think it exsits. THe only thing that is, is. LIke I don't believe in greater good or evil. I think things are good /bad for people, but there is no good or bad, only consequenses.

Take care, and be true....   

/Yari


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## Kirk

Turner, I like what you had to say, and I agree with a lot of it.


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## Cthulhu

In the TKD class I occasionally attend, the instructor always emphasizes showing respect to the other students in the class as well as yourself.

Cthulhu


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## arnisador

In this thread I posted this link to a story about a judoka who sued to be able to compete without bowing for religious reasons. She lost.

I have mixed feelings on requriing bowing in class! In the martial _arts_ one learns about a country's culture as well as their fighting system. Yet, I wouldn't want to exclude someone who wanted to learn but had certain convictions.


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *Yet, I wouldn't want to exclude someone who wanted to learn but had certain convictions. *



Well..... depending on what it is, I would. But that would be handled already from the begining , when the person started.

These are the ground rules. You want to learn from me, or is your cup already full? I already give a lot of slack but there are places I don't slack, and one of them is bowing. If you don't bow in my class, it's the same as refusing to shake hands. But things like saying Sir og Sensei I don't mind the slack, it's not important. Titles are never important. It's they way things are doen that are important.

/Yari


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## donald

[Originally posted by Kirk
 I challenge you to give me gospel where any prophet or Jesus acted in this way? 

Sir,
First let me clarify my last post. If I offered a m.a. class, and opened it to the public. It would not be a covert 
"christian" operation. My intentions, and the school/club curriculum would be presented openly, and honestly! My primary objective would be to present the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Using the m.a. training as a tool to introduce Him to those that would attend/train there. I would in no way force anyone to espouse the faith. I would present biblical truths, and include them in the criteria. Whether anyone accepted  the "training" would be completely up to them. Also The Lord Jesus, healed,fed, and accepted all those who came. He did not try to trick anyone into believing, but when they came for healing etc.. He taught them The Truth, it was, and is up to the hearer to accept the healing, AND teaching, or not. I hope this has cleared up any confusion I may have caused you?       Salute in Christ     :asian:


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## Kirk

Well said sir!  I read that you are currently using martial arts
to teach the gospel to those that might not enter a church.  I
don't mean to offend, at all.  I understood that to mean that
people will go "hey, there's a m.a. school", walk in and you're
teaching the Gospel.


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## Yari

To Tuner

I've been wondering how you show your respects.

1) for the person you practice with
2) To the people who made it psossible for you to pratice
3) For the people you made the system
4) For the style you pratice

Do who hand shake them all? Or salut them in some way?

HOw do you show another person respect, and not know how this person will know he's being handled with respect.

/Yari


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## Turner

To Yari

How I show respect for:

1) The person I practice with...
I verbally thank him/her for attending class and continually vocalize how much I appreciate them.

2) The people that made it possible to practice...
I'm not sure who that would be... If you are speaking of the people that I practice with... see nr. 1. If you refer to the person that I rent the space from... I don't know the guy that well. I just leave a paycheck on his desk.

3) The people who made the system...
Dragon Kenpo as I teach it is a Mixed Martial Art taking my experience from my Dragon Kenpo instructor, my Hapkido Instructor, My Goju-ryu instructor, My Kyokushin instructor... well, I don't want to go on forever and I wouldn't want to go on forever in class. I show them respect by passing down the information that they gifted me with.

4) The style I practice...
I show my respect by practicing the style and giving my all when I do each technique.

Words and guestures aren't how a person show respect.. Just as a Kiai doesn't need to make a sound to be a Kiai. These things are not external but come from within. I don't need words or guestures for people to see how much I respect and appreciate them. I show respect to my students by taking my job seriously and ensuring they get quality time on the floor learning how to defend themselves instead of spending a whole lot of time with formalities that in time mean little because you just go through the motions.


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## Yari

Thank You Tuner

/Yari


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## Turner

Your welcome. I hope I answered sufficiently...

Woo Hoo, we were both promoted!


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## Battousai

Along the lines of respect and the concept of bowing and such being against Christianity, in regards to bowing being a type of idolitry; Showing respect to others is a fundamental pillar of Christianity (1 Cor 13, loving others). 
 Jesus himself kneeled to his disciples and washed their feet, enacting the role of a slave. Bowing to someone else should not always be considered idolitry, it is what it means to that person, not what it looks like on the outside that determines the truth.


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## Andi

Hi everyone. I'd just like to say thanks to everybody who posted on this subject. I'm a christian and I'm just getting started in the martial arts (a few months of TKD) but I've only recently started asking myself questions like these. So your discussions have been very helpful. Thanks! 

Andi


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## Monkey King

I've been a Christain since 1983. I've studied Martials since 1973.
I have gone over this question many times. Here is my summation:

The Christian populace often equates today's marial arts with that of the old hindu practice which combined prayer to other gods with combat traing.

This comes from the pseudopigraphal belief that when man sinned it caused separation from God. _In the presence of God, sin would fry like bacon because there is no darkness in God only pure light and Light dispells darkness._ 
So God sent down angels to teach man. One of the angels, azazel, taught man how to war and make weapons of war. He taught man the warfare of the angels. Which God did not want man to learn....hence azazel is now locked up in chains until the judgement.

To many, this is the origin of martial arts. The hindus, with their many gods would combine worship with their training. 

The chinese father of kung fu, Ta Mo or bodidharma in Sansskrit, traveled from india to china, moved into a cave above the Honan temple and eventually taught the monks the exercises he developed in the cave. The art spread from there.

Do you see where I'm going with this?

Is today's marial art like that of the past? No

Is today's martial art in conflict with Christian belief?

Some believe so. There is only one scripture to support this. 
1 Timothy 4:8
_"for bodily exercise profits a little, but godliness is profitable for all things, having promise of the life that now is and of that which is to come."_ 

Does this mean don't exercise? or train? No 

The book of Timothy is a guideline for growing in Godliness.

This verse means to recognize that godliness is necessary to this life and to the life eternal. We have to be disciplined in body, soul and spirit, and we have to conduct ourselves in an exemplary manner in every detail of our lives.

In the Marines we called it *Honor, courage, and committment* 
These are traits that were learned and taught by the great martial arts masters.

Martial Arts is a discipline. Always has been. Every, and I mean every martial artist I've known except for two, were honorable men and women.

In class, I bow to my instructors and opponents, but with my eyes up. At the end when we are on our knees and do the final bow, I bow but say outloud, "I only bow to Christ".

Everyone knows I do this and have no problem with it.

My2.


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## Battousai

Pastor Raul Ries started a church in his kung fu studio!
 To chech out his amazing story goto:
http://www.somebodylovesyou.org/calvary/testimon.htm

 Raul went through vietnam and all sorts of violent stuff through out his life, an incredible story.


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## WannaBeAmachine

ok, wheh this is a long thread, and i will first off say that i did not read every single post so there might be a few things i miss.. but to start with... my credintials... 

CREDENTIALS: I am the son of a baptis minister, which means snot. 
a 3rd degree wiccan High Priest of the coven of the Luna Knox(night moon)
a ordained Minister of Metaphysics, and hold an honorary doctorate in Philosophy of Metaphysics from the american college of metaphysical theology. And have spent the last 8 years or so studying comparative religion in depth. 

KAITH: i agree, people who say something is against christianity usually dont understand it at all. ps... what is your religion you said "harm none" which sounds very wiccan(and though harm none do what though will)

SAMURAI:  the war in heaven did not start when jesus was born, no where in the bible does it say such. however in the koran it does say that the war started when Adam was created, before the creation of Eve. God told the angles that they were as he the race of fire, equals. then created adam and brought adam before the angles and said "i have created him in my image, and breathed my life into him and so he is greater than you. bow before him" and all but a few bowed as they were commanded, among those few were Lucifer, Azazel, and 1/3 of the legions. who said that they were all the race of fire and so above the race of clay, and that they would not bow. and there was a war in heaven. The war was not about power or "lucifer"/"satan" taking gods place it was about racial equality. also, in peter it says "even now in heaven there are angles carrying savage weapons". which tells me that(to put it bluntly) if an angle can carry a savage weapon and nock eack other around there is nothing wrong with the combative aspect of martial arts as long as it is used for self defence, and in war, even the bible discussed defending your country, obeying the laws of man, and defending the church. Jesus was not a docile man as he is depicted. on a closing note for all you bible thumpers... WWJD(as is now popular) "money lenders get you out of the house of god" ... as he flips a table.

BOWING: Many many many, times if you just want to stick to the bible did Jesus wash other peoples feet. are you going to tell me bowing to each other, is worship when the son of god is willing to get on his knees(humble himself before) a mere man, and wash their feet. if bowing is non christian worship then jesus was a hell of a heratic. by the way jesus was a Jew so this goes to who ever it was that posted something about jews not bowing.

CONFLICTIN RELIGIONS: bull sh**, just for starters there are about a  million gnostic text that discuss Jesus travels to the "east". also the biggest point here is that even the pope(who i think most non catholics will agree is a pretty rigid guy) has stated that the pagan god Mythra, is the same as Jehova/YHWY/YHVY/I am/Adonai/Adonis/AO/etc....in that list of "same gods" is Alla, Buda, vishnu(who is actually thought of only as an aspect of god) and about every other "one god" or even ones that are viewed as an aspect of god. so no studying eastern religions is not wrong...

hate to say it and dont care if anyone gets offended but modern christianity's tenet of blind faith is not about faith it is about ignorance, and control. even jesus was not happy with just faith and asked "why"

peace, power, and prosperity.

ps. sorry for being so long winded but it erks me to see people making moot points with no literary support. unless it is made as an opinion post of course.


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## Kirk

Helluva post, brother-man!


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## Monkey King

:soapbox: 
Note to everyone: Don't be afraid to talk about religion, simply understand it so you can intelligently discuss it.

WannaBeAmachine:



> ... modern christianity's tenet of blind faith is not about faith it is about ignorance, and control.



That has got to be the most asinine statement I've ever heard. Sounds to me like someone is mad at daddy.

Your credentials tell me you're qualified...qualified at being confused. I'd get your money back.

But allow me to retort:

First of all I agree with the first part of your post to Samurai. But only the first part.

Now to my reply; since this thread is about Martial arts and Christianity:

.





> the pagan god Mythra, is the same as Jehova/YHWY/YHVY/I am/Adonai/Adonis/AO/etc....in that list of "same gods" is Alla, Buda, vishnu



Your first mistake was quoting the pope. You both need to open your bibles and read them.

Allah: 

Allah - Aramaic from two roots: "Al" Which means Nay or not. And Ilah or Elah which means god. Small "G" and yes semantics and spelling are important in Hebrew and Aramaic because they specifically describe attributes. In English, the only difference between "god", meaning a false god, and "God", meaning the One True God, is the capital "G. The muslim "allah" means 'god'. It is a generic term. "Allah" is simply the Arabic word for "God"  

*Jehovah is Jesus* 
This is stated all throughout the old testament.

"God" to the Jew has names that describe his character.
Old Testament (The Hebrew Scriptures, or Tanach):
EL:God ("mighty, strong, prominent") 

linguistically equivalent to the Moslem "Allah," but the attributes of Allah in Islam are entirely different from those of the God of the Hebrews. ELAH is Aramaic, "god." 

Elah appears in the Hebrew Bible in Jer. 10:11 (which is in Aramaic, and is plural, "gods"). In Daniel (the Aramaic sections) Elah is used both of pagan gods, and of the true God, also plural. Elah is equivalent to the Hebrew Eloah which some think is dual; 

ELOHIM: God (a plural noun, more than two, used with singular verbs)

EL SHADDAI: God Almighty or "God All Sufficient." "Lord God the Almighty." 

ADONAI: Lord in our English Bibles (Capitol letter 'L ', lower case, 'ord') (Adonai is plural, the sing. is "adon"). "Master'' or "Lord" 

JEHOVAH: LORD in our English Bibles (all capitals). Yahweh is the covenant name of God. (Jehovah Elohim). From the verb "to be", havah, similar to chavah (to live), "The Self-Existent One," "I AM WHO I AM" or 'I WILL BE WHO I WILL BE" as revealed to Moses at the burning bush, Ex.3. 
The name of God, too sacred to be uttered, abbreviated or written "YHWH" without vowel points. Note Deut. 6:4, 5 known to Jews as the Sh'ma uses both Jehovah and Elohim to indicate one God with a plurality of persons. 

JEHOVAH-JIREH: "The Lord will Provide." From "jireh" ("to see" or "to provide," or to "foresee" as a prophet.) God always provides, adequate when the times come. 

JEHOVAH-ROPHE: "The Lord Who Heals" From "rophe" ("to heal"); implies spiritual, emotional as well as physical healing. God heals body, soul and spirit; all levels of man's being.

JEHOVAH-NISSI: "The Lord Our Banner." God on the battlefield, from word which means "to glisten," "to lift up," 

JEHOVAH-M'KADDESH: "The Lord Who Sanctifies" . "To make whole, set apart for holiness." 

JEHOVAH-SHALOM: "The Lord Our Peace" "Shalom" translated "peace" means "whole," "finished," "fulfilled," "perfected." Shalom means that kind of peace that results from being a whole person in right relationship to God and to one's fellow man.

JEHOVAH-TSIDKENU: "The Lord Our Righteousness" From "tsidek" (straight, stiff, balanced - as on scales - full weight, justice, right, righteous, declared innocent.) The God Who is our righteousness.

JEHOVAH-ROHI: "The Lord Our Shepherd" from "ro'eh" (to pasture).

JEHOVAH-SHAMMAH: "The Lord is There" 

JEHOVAH-SABAOTH: "The Lord of Hosts" The commander of the angelic host and the armies of God. 

EL ELYON: 'Most High" (from "to go up") 

ABHIR: 'Mighty One', ("to be strong") 

KADOSH: "Holy One" 

SHAPHAT: "Judge" 

EL ROI: "God of Seeing" The God Who opens our eyes.

KANNA: "Jealous" (zealous). 

PALET: "Deliverer" 

YESHA: (Y'shua) "Savior" Isa. 43:3. Jesus is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew "Joshua." The latter is a contraction of Je-Hoshua. ("Christ", the anointed one is equivalent to the Hebrew Maschiah, or Messiah). 

GAOL: "Redeemer" (to buy back by paying a price) 

MAGEN: "Shield" 

EYALUTH: "Strength" 

TSADDIQ: "Righteous One" 

EL-OLAM: "Everlasting God" (God of everlasting time) 

ZUR: "God our Rock" 

Malachi calls Messiah "The Sun of Righteousness" 

Isaiah calls Messiah "Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God (El Gibhor), Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" (Isa. 9:6).

'Attiq Yomin (Aramaic): "Ancient of Days," 

MELEKH: "King" 

THE FIRST AND LAST: Isa. 44:6, 48:12.


To the Christian: God is personal because He left his High estate to become like us that he might save us, why? Because he loves us.

New Testament Scriptures, (Greek):
KURIOS: "Lord" Found some 600 times in the NT.

DESPOTES: "Lord" 

THEOS: "God" (equivalent to the Hebrew Elohim), 

I AM: Jesus upset his generation especially when He said, "Before Abraham was, I AM," John 8:58. Note also his claim to be Jehovah in such phrases as "I AM the Light of the world," "the bread of life," living water," "the Resurrection and the Life," "the Way, Truth and the Life" in John's Gospel. From the Hebrew OT verb "to be" signifying a Living, Intelligent, Personal Being.

THEOTES: "Godhead" 

HUPSISTOS: "Highest" 

SOTER: "Savior" 


CHRIST: is equivalent to the Hebrew 'Messiah' (Meshiach), "The Anointed One."

Other NT Titles for Jesus: Shepherd of the Sheep; Master; King of kings; Lord of lords; Bishop and Guardian of our Souls; Daystar, Deliverer, Advocate, Second Adam, Ancient of Days, Branch, Chief Cornerstone, Immanuel, First Born, Head of the Body, Physician, Rock, Root of Jesse, Stone, Potentate; Chief Apostle; Great High Priest; Pioneer and Perfecter of our Faith (or Author and Finisher); Lamb of God; Lamb Slain before the Foundation of the World; Lord God Almighty.

So to say that Allah is the same is eroneous.


The church doesn't change the bible because it believes it is the inspired word of God. 
God inspires it, man abuses it. Many Christian leaders in the past have used the scriptures for their own gain. Man is inherently evil and therefore will become greedy. Greedy for Power, money...what have you. 

Since the begining there have always been believers of God. Those who truly want to follow his ways. BTW, That is what "Jew" means in arabic; "Believer of God".

Don't judge all Christians by the actions of a few. 

Witches in the bible refers to those who use divination. Does that mean we burn them at the stake? NO.

Jesus took their sin as well as ours. 


*Budda*  Zen Buddism

Historically, Zen Buddhism originates in the teachings of Siddhartha Gautama. Around 500 B.C. he was a prince in what is now India. At the age of 29, deeply troubled by the suffering he saw around him, he renounced his privileged life to seek understanding. After 6 years of struggling as an ascetic he finally achieved Enlightenment at age 35. After this he was known as the Buddha (meaning roughly "one who is awake"). In a nutshell, he realized that everything is subject to change and that suffering and discontentment are the result of attachment to circumstances and things which, by their nature, are impermanent. By ridding oneself of these attachments, including attachment to the false notion of self or "I", one can be free of suffering. 

The teachings of the Buddha have, to this day, been passed down from teacher to student. Around 475 A.D. one of these teachers, Bodhidharma, traveled from India to China and introduced the teachings of the Buddha there. In China Buddhism mingled with Taoism. The result of this mingling was the Ch'an School of Buddhism. Around 1200 A.D. Ch'an Buddhism spread from China to Japan where it is called (at least in translation) Zen Buddhism. 


It is a philosophy. Budda is not a god. He knew that. I'm sure if budda knew others were worshipping him, he'd roll over in his grave since that would be contradictory to his "enlightenment."

*Vishnu* 
(vish´noo), one of the many gods of Hinduism , considered one of the greatest, also called Narayana. First mentioned in the Veda as a minor deity, his theistic cults, known as Vaishnavism, or Vishnuism, grew steadily from the first millennium BC, absorbing numerous different traditions and minor deities. 

In the Vedic sacrifice a god or gods are invoked by the hymns or mantras . Offerings of food, butter, or soma  are prepared and offered to the fire, which as an intermediary god, Vishnu conveys these to the other gods. 

*Hindus* 
Hinduism is unique among the world religions in that it had no single founder but grew over a period of 4,000 years in syncretism with the religious and cultural movements of the Indian subcontinent. Hinduism is composed of innumerable sects and has no well-defined ecclesiastical organization. 

*Wicca* (Since you brought it up)
Wicca is a recently created, Neopagan religion. The various branches of Wicca can be traced back to Gardnerian Witchcraft which was founded in the UK during the late 1940s. 
 Wicca is based on the symbols, seasonal days of celebration, beliefs and deities of ancient Celtic society. Added to this material were Masonic and ceremonial magickal components from recent centuries. In this respect, it is a religion whose roots go back almost three millennia to the formation of Celtic society circa 800 BCE.   

A follower of Wicca is called a Wiccan. Wicca and other Neopagan religions are currently experiencing a rapid growth in the U.S., Canada, and Europe. This is seen particularly among teenagers, who are rejecting what they feel is the autocracy, paternalism, sexism, homophobia, and insensitivity to the environment that forms part of some more traditional religions. Many North Americans of European descent, who are keen to discover their ancestral heritage, are also being attracted to this religion.

Wiccans generally consider themselves to be Witches, Neopagans, and Pagans. However, not all Witches, Neopagans and Pagans are Wiccans. The terms Witch, Neopagan and Pagan can also refer to followers of many other faith traditions.


Basically, believe everything. 

Multiple gods, customs, traditions...sound familiar? Try the Celtics, egyptians, Greeks, romans, persians, druids, Aztecs, Mayans, Arayans,...etc.

*Back to the subject...* 

If we're going to talk about martial arts and Christianity, then let's talk about it. 

If you're going to sit there and make biased, uneducated, and suppositional statements about Christianity...then i suggest you do your homework first.


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## Monkey King

As a U.S. Marine Corps veteran, and in spite of our difference of belief, I would still share a fighting hole with you brother, watch your back, and lay down my life to protect you if necessary.

Semper Fidelis:asian:


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## Jay Bell

Now THAT was a Helluva post, Monkey King.  Very nice


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## Cthulhu

Very informative post, Monkey King!

Were you, by any chance, a theology major?  

Cthulhu


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## Yari

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *As a U.S. Marine Corps veteran, and in spite of our difference of belief, I would still share a fighting hole with you brother, watch your back, and lay down my life to protect you if necessary.
> 
> Semper Fidelis:asian: *



I bow to you!


/Yari


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## WannaBeAmachine

:argue: 

Good post monkey, 
however i will still argue that regardless of a persons belief in the trinity(christianity), delution of god into many aspects(modern wicca[which i do not by the way continue to practice, and won't even begin to argue about it's origins]/hinduism for the most part), or name for God(note the capital G) that the "one God" is the one God no matter what you name him. which was in large the point i was trying to make even though i may have gotten off on tangents. so imho, you can practice all the MA you want study all the religions you want, and if you think it is wrong look at it as a test of faith, to learn about other religions and stay with yours, or if not, like me, it's just expanding your horizons, and gleening wisdom from another faith. personally i find it hard to believe that the millions of hindu, pagan, muslim, etc, etc... religions that are not christian are all damned and have been for the last ... how many thousand years.

ps. monkey, actually me and my dad have about the best relationship i could ask for and debate regularly on religious philosophy... in a healthy way that is, that tempers our respect and understanding for one another, i just never could except blind faith.

:asian: 

semper fi.


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## Monkey King

Then I suppose we are at an impass.

No intention on my part to insult about you and your father, just figured as Marines we can speak bluntly, as all Marines do.

I bleive in being informed, whether it's about religions, politics, etc. I am not a theology major. But I had many questions about religion. So I studied them to answer those questions. 

But I will not compromise my faith by diluting it with something else. 

Hebrews says "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."

If it were tangible, then you wouldn't need faith.  You use "blind Faith" everyday.

By faith you wake up each morning.

By faith you start your car. (assuming it will start)

Most of your habits are performed by blind faith.

I never said studying Martial arts was wrong. 

I said some may percieve it as wrong, I consider it a discipline. Like any physical activity. 

I look at bowing as a salute, a form of respect one gives to someone who is more experienced. I have no problem with it.




> personally i find it hard to believe that the millions of hindu, pagan, muslim, etc, etc... religions that are not christian are all damned and have been for the last ... how many thousand years.



God is much bigger than you or I, and I will not be as presumptuous as some to pretend to understand all of the whys and why nots.

This is a question I am determined to find the answer to. But suffice it to say that I believe my God to be a jealous God but he is also compassionate, caring, patient and loving. 

He lets us do our thing, but gently leads us. We make our choices and he waits patiently. 

I can say as Paul said; "Were it not for the grace of God, there go I."

I will continue to let God raise me in the way that I should go. Hopefully, I'll make some good choices.


Semper Fi Brother


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## Turner

Not to start a debate, just an interesting side note... I'm a Christian... But don't believe in the trinity. I won't explain because that is not the point of this forum...

I've seen some interesting posts that have given me pause to think... and that, my friends, is a good thing. We all need to constantly analyze and look at things from many angles, because you never know what intresting things you might have missed. As Mr. Parker wrote in his "Infinate Insights" "A mind is like a parachute, it only works when open."

Thank you Monkey King and wannabemachine for the thoughts that you shared. Its much appreciated.


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## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> 
> *I won't explain because that is not the point of this forum... *



It would be fair game for The Locker Room if anyone cares to take it there.


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## WannaBeAmachine

> _Originally posted by Monkey King _
> 
> *... just figured as Marines we can speak bluntly, as all Marines do....
> 
> ... I am not a theology major. But I had many questions about religion. So I studied them to answer those questions...
> *



you are right on the speaking bluntly, i do, and the assumption about my relationship with my father was well based on Freudian theory. so no offence taken, it just happened to not be correct in the particular case, however, not to start another debate, i think Freud usually is write.

also... i will defer as i am not a theology major either, mine was metaphysics(meta/more comprehensive, physics/a science that deals with matter and energy and their interactions) which essentialy is simply the science of religion, a lot of Occult studies.

once again, peace, power, and prosperity
:asian:


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## shihantae

Christianty like the arts, is what you make of it.

If you see evil in the arts it is there.  If you don't then it isn't.
Seems like those who bring up this argument..want to make something out of nothing.  I joined the church 41 yrs ago.  I have been in the arts 38yrs.  I never even thought about "something" being in the arts.

Sounds more to me like someone just didn't like the arts and had to give a reason.  There are many ministers in the arts...don't tell them they are wrong...including this one.

If anything the Ma has made my Beliefs stronger...my ability not to lose my beliefs just becasue something bad happens.  There is an  internal strength that you find in the Arts that you ca not find in Christianity.  To bad too, because if we could, there would be better Christians.

Just some thoughts.

Peace,
Tae


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## shihantae

Hi Turner,
You are not the only Christian who does not believe in the trinity.
I am a Theologian, and a minister, and I do not believe in it..at least not the way the church teaches it.(but that is another subject)  Anyway, I just wanted you to know that you are not alone in that belief.  There are many more of us who do not believe in it either. 

Monkey King that was an execellent post.

Peace,
Tae


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## arnisador

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Abbax8

I hanen't read all the posts here so if this is a repeat, mea culpa. I am a Christian and a judo instructor. Jesus said the greatest commandment is to love God, the second is to love your neighbor. All scripture and the prophets are contained in these two teachings. If one does not love MA before God and neighbor, then one is not violating the two greatest commandments. Additionally, in my church, Roman Catholic, we are taught that we have a moral obligation to protect life, our own, our family and others. MA can enable you to do so. Therefore in my opinion there is nothing contradictory about being a MA and a Christian. 

                                                          Peace
                                                             Dennis


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## MisterMike

The integration of spirituality and the martial arts goes back thousands of years. One of the most influential teachers who brought this into the mainsrteam was Ueshiba, who used Aikido as a vehicle to pass on his teachings. 

I think that you could incorporate the same with Chritianity into your art if you wanted to do so. I think that when you have this integration, the art only becomes more powerful.


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