# Why do you think it took bjj/grappling/wrestling so long to be recognized..



## Maint (Feb 14, 2014)

As an efficient style in the US?  I'm 40 years old and grew up with all the karate/kungfu/ninja arts and mass media and I know two guys rolling around on the ground is not exciting for Hollywood. I know Bruce Lee had a big impact on the arts in the 70s and Karate kid did in the 80s. I've been watching martial arts evolve from the very first UFC which I rented on VHS. I remember seeing Royce Gracie and it blew my mind.  I can remember the first time I saw him fight was against Ron Van Cleif and after the announcer mentioned the black dragon had all these belts I thought what can this lil bjj guy do. Lol. I remember seeing a triangle choke for the first time in one of the early Lethal Weapon movies and thinking wth is that?  Wrestlers were something to be pantomimed because of WWF/WWE. And Greco roman/freestyle was labeled useless by most of those who viewed it with an unopened mind. I know the Gracie family has been doing vale tudo for years and the first UFC's were basically to market the bjj. I'm just curious as to what everyone else thinks? I mean I know now we got younger generations who know how to counter bjj and grappling by adding it to their game. But you have the old guard who thought OMG I've been training and teaching for years and doing these forms over and over for what!? And no I'm not putting down traditional arts, they are just as efficient if you know what you're doing, so please don't turn this post into a "my art is better and yours sucks" discussion. I just want to know what you guys think is the biggest influences other than what I mentioned.


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2014)

Because it didn't?

Wrestling has been huge for generations in large parts of the country.  Judo was big in the 50s and 60s.  Kung fu got big in the 70s.  Kickboxing popped in the early/mid 80s, and then the Ninja came along in the late 80s and 90s.  Then BJJ came into prominence...  Currently, we're seeing various forms of Reality Based Self Defense, Krav Maga, and the like seem to be getting a lot attention.  These things shift and grow and ebb over time, influenced by Hollywood, competition, etc.


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## Maint (Feb 14, 2014)

Basically that's what I just said. Sure each art seems to have its time, but like you just posted each one has been big in its own time. The question I'm asking is why did it take so long for ground fighting to pop up and say "hey! All those forms and kicks and punches will do no good if I take you down, throw you, choke you out or break a limb". I know judo is a soft style but I know it's very effective too. Just look at Karo Parysian sp? Why didn't judo take off as a dominant style? Gene Lebell has been around for along time but I bet some people have no clue who he is. Jigoro Kano influenced other styles by instituting the belt ranking system. Why was judo pretty much forgotten? Unless you're from the Midwest or an Eastern European country you're not a wrestling fan, and I'm not talking about wwe. Time and again hollywood has shown us the one punch knockout and the flying kicks, yet I guess rolling around on the ground is too boring. Grappling has been around since the dawn of man, but it took a little 160 lb bjj guy to bring it back into the UNITED STATES subconscious. Just wondering why that is.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 14, 2014)

To those in the know wrestling and judo have always been considered really good!  Though without a sporting format to show just how good they could be against other systems people were left to just hypothesize.  It certainly did not hurt Royce (who was really about 180) and the Gracies that they ran challenge matches for years in Brazil and America and knew what the outcome would be.  It also didn't hurt to pick who would face whom in those early Octagon matches!


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## Maint (Feb 14, 2014)

That's what I mean Brian...to those in the know. It's almost like all the media outlets..tv, film, magazines and books forgot that grappling is a pretty good art vs traditional stand up arts. Now I'm not being biased, I've been spanked by an aikidoka and axe kicked by a TKD stylist. Neither felt good. But I'm sure if I'd had some ground training instead of trading punches and kicks things would be different. Oh and like you said, other than Olympics there really hasn't been a sporting venue. It's like basketball is big in the south and ice hockey is a northern thing I guess. Although I love the Pens lol. Maybe it's just the area a person lives in, but ya gotta admit it was a big culture shock when grappling made a big showing.


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## Budo Jake (Feb 14, 2014)

Maint said:


> That's what I mean Brian...to those in the know. It's almost like all the media outlets..tv, film, magazines and books forgot that grappling is a pretty good art vs traditional stand up arts. Now I'm not being biased, I've been spanked by an aikidoka and axe kicked by a TKD stylist. Neither felt good. But I'm sure if I'd had some ground training instead of trading punches and kicks things would be different. Oh and like you said, other than Olympics there really hasn't been a sporting venue. It's like basketball is big in the south and ice hockey is a northern thing I guess. Although I love the Pens lol. Maybe it's just the area a person lives in, but ya gotta admit it was a big culture shock when grappling made a big showing.



I think it took a long time for 2 reasons:

1) Grappling just doesn't look cool on the big screen. It's difficult to understand what's going on if you're not a practitioner.

2) The "exoticness" of the Asian arts were more appealing than what we've had here all along. Kind of the grass is greener idea.

3) It took a "no rules" event to prove the effectiveness of BJJ. Anyone that was around in 93 for UFC 1 remembers what a shock that was.


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## jks9199 (Feb 14, 2014)

But Judo did have it's time as a big deal... 


> It was not until after World War II that American Judo began  developing on a national basis. Many American servicemen studied Judo in  Japan during the occupation and then returned home to teach it. As a  result the Armed Forces Judo Association (AFJA) was established.
> American Judo received a further boost in the early 1950's when  General Curtis Lamay required its teaching to US Air Force personnel in  the Strategic Air Command. In 1953 Judo was officially recognized as an  AAU sport and national tournaments have been held since.


  from Judo Info

Wrestling was, and is, a mainstay in many parts of the US, and often was required in colleges.  And that's not getting into Professional Wrestling...

I think you're trying to make a bigger deal of the lack of notoriety than the case merits.  Maybe you can bolster your argument a bit?


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## ballen0351 (Feb 14, 2014)

How much bigger do you want it.  Wrestling is in almost every highschool and college in the country.  It's an Olympic sport. Back in the 20s and 30s people traveled the world holding exhibition wresting matches etc.


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## Maint (Feb 14, 2014)

I'm not wanting to make it bigger. I'm just saying growing up no one ever RECOGNIZED grappling arts as being dangerous. At best judo/jiu jitsu were how to toss an opponent over your hip and wrestling was something seen on college campuses...this is how the average joe seemed to recognize it. But if you had a tenth degree black belt in generic do you were a deadly man. (Sarcasm). I'm not putting down the arts and I. Not saying one art is better than the other. I've asked again and again, why did it take so long for the grappling arts to be recognized as pretty effective against just about any style out there? I know all the arts have been around and people have known about them. My question is if they've known about them for so long then why was it such a culture shock when they were "reintroduced" in the early UFCs? Every one who saw those early mma bouts knew about TKD or boxing. They knew about wrestling and jiu jitsu, so why was everyone so shocked and started revamping their game with grappling? If it has been so mainstream in the past, then why did it change the fight game and martial arts in the present?  Guys I hope I'm not offending anyone. I just like a good discussion. If I have I apologize for my newbness.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 15, 2014)

Not saying which art is better. Just point out the difference. The grappling art make you think a situation from a different angle.

1. If you put both arms to guard your head, your opponent will be hard to go through your guarding arms and punch at your head. Your hands are also ready to punch back at your opponent if needed.






2. If you control your opponent's arms, since your opponent's arms are not free to punch you, you don't even need to guard your head. When you do that, you have given away your opportunity to punch at your opponent by moving in too close from a punching range into a clinching range.






Which approach will suit you better depends on your personal training.

Most people may be used to this approach.







but not this approach.






or this approach.


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## jks9199 (Feb 15, 2014)

The boxer's guard position is designed for boxing: limited targets (head and torso, only from the front and sides), limited weapons (knuckle portion of the closed fist), gloved fists.  Look into boxing's history, and you'll see different guards under different rules.

I don't think anyone serious ever discounted the effectiveness of wrestling/ground grappling.  But, like boxing and Western fencing, they weren't exotic or different.  Eastern Martial Arts in general had a mystique built from that strangeness.  TV and movies expanded that.


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## Maint (Feb 15, 2014)

Kung fu Wang those are hilarious pictures but I see the point lol. Speedy, thank you for that insight. I hadn't thought of the exotic/mystique connection. That is a very good point. I guess it's kind of like how the media had us all believing the ninja had a black Century uniform, complete with spandex mask lol. Or that they could walk on water. Come to think of it, martial action in media has evolved somewhat. It's kind of gravitated away from the high flying wire stuff to somewhat more realistic action. Kudos speedy.


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## James Kovacich (Feb 15, 2014)

Maint said:


> I guess it's kind of like how the media had us all believing the ninja had a black Century uniform, complete with spandex mask lol. Or that they could walk on water.


I hope your joking...as least as far as your usage of the word "all."


Sent from my DROID3 using Tapatalk 2


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## Maint (Feb 15, 2014)

Yes it was in mirth. And when I say "all" I'm meaning the youth who grew up during this period thinking wax on wax off and ninja smoke bombs were the norm. Lol


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