# Striking Angles....



## Bammx2 (May 26, 2005)

I had a wonder recently(and I apologies if this has been posted already)

And got thinking about all the different strinking angles that different systems have and was wondering.....

How many does your particular system have and do you prefer any variations on them?

In Rapid Arnis we have 12.
In the Kali system I did back home,there was 9 and sometimes I combine aspects of both.

Also,
I was told there are some systems that have up to 36.
Does anybody know if such a critter actually exsists?
I mean,good lord....thats a whooped up indivual,right there!

Anyway...

 I thank you all for your input!

:asian:

MABUHAY


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## Andrew Green (May 26, 2005)

I wouldn't think too much about the angles...  Really you got a unlimited number and should take whatever angle is most available.  The 12, or 36, or whatever are just a basic way to practice striking from a number of different angles and the mechanics behind them. 

 Strike at any angle you like, so long as it benefits you and not him.


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## Bammx2 (May 26, 2005)

Andrew Green said:
			
		

> I wouldn't think too much about the angles... Really you got a unlimited number and should take whatever angle is most available. The 12, or 36, or whatever are just a basic way to practice striking from a number of different angles and the mechanics behind them.
> 
> Strike at any angle you like, so long as it benefits you and not him.


I am completley with you on that one!

 I am only asking for purely informational purposes only.
I am more than happy where I am.
 But all the different families and clans and what not...
I'm just curious.....
and nosey


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## Blindside (May 26, 2005)

My Serrada instructor used 14 basic attacks, my Inosanto-blend was 12.  My Pekiti-Tersia instructor uses "64 attacks" as the basis of instruction, but that isn't just striking angles as it includes defensive actions as well.  

Lamont


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## Wes Tasker (May 26, 2005)

Pekiti Tirsia has an interesting progression as far as angles of attack go...  

One would traditionally start out with the "Sabay Sabay Nga Sugod" which are 6 categories of strikes - jab, slash, takedown, overhead, uppercut, and close spacing.  These teach basic body mechanics, strike characteristics (i.e. - a jab just hits the target and withdraws, where a slash goes through the target and withdraws, overhead combines a counter-offensive move in the middle of two strikes, takedown teaches to do a baiting type strike followed by a hand hit...), etc.

Then one progresses to the "Abcedario".  There are 12 sets of 12 of these.  Instead of being 144 strikes divided into a myriad of angles, these are two base sets of 12 (forward and reverse) with the mechanic changed in the subsequent sets of 5 pairs.  So the pairs are as follows:
Set 1 & 2 - standard grip
Set 3 & 4 - double force (using your other hand to push along the strike)
Set 5 & 6 - punyo (using the butt of the stick)
Set 7 & 8 - hooking (using the butt of the stick to move your opponent)
Set 9 & 10 - reverse (holding the stick in reverse grip)
Set 11 & 12 - bayonet (holding the stick at both ends)

Then one would learn "Limang Sugod" or the five attacks.  These are diagonal attacks done either broken (hits and rechambers with a half-beat thrust), fluid (hits through target), circular (hits through target with a counter-offensive umbrella and then attacks the knees).  Then you learn to do them reverse fashion - which basically means you learn to throw a #1 (a forehand diagonal to the clavicle/head) from the backhand chamber.  So in the end, you learn to throw a strike from either chamber in any of the three flavors - broken, fluid, circular.

Lastly are the first set of 12 "Seguidas" that teach you to throw strikes in a very tight and narrow space.

Ultimately the progression from the Sabay Sabay to Abcedario to Limang Sugod to Seguidas prepares someone to throw a multitude of different strikes from different chambers with different characterstics in order to fulfill the need of the strike at that time...  It is also a progression that teaches how to generate power in smaller and smaller motions.  I hope this helped and didn't ramble too much....

-wes tasker


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## Nanalo74 (May 26, 2005)

There are literally hundreds of numbering systems in the FMA. It depends on the region, the system, what they thought was the most important angle, the combat philosophy of the system, etc. As others have said before me, don't worry yourself with numbering the angles per se. Somebody's Angle 2 could be your Angle 1 if that's the main strike you employ in combat. 

Vic www.combatartsusa.com


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## Bammx2 (May 27, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> There are literally hundreds of numbering systems in the FMA. It depends on the region, the system, what they thought was the most important angle, the combat philosophy of the system, etc. As others have said before me, don't worry yourself with numbering the angles per se. Somebody's Angle 2 could be your Angle 1 if that's the main strike you employ in combat.
> 
> Vic www.combatartsusa.com


Thank you for your post.
But as I stated before,I am happy with what I'm doing.
I just to know about other styles?!
like.....
when I studied shotokan,read about Gojuryu.
Doesn't mean I was trying to switch,or find any secrets...I was just interested in the history.
I have this thing for history of certain subjects.
FMA being one.
I would like to build a library on FMA...and this is a good start and Angles was my first point of interest.
Once I find something I find intriguing...I run with it!

In my opinion,
"gettin whooped with a stick, is gettin whooped with a stick"!

I just like to know how other people go about it
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





But thanks just the same!


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## Mark Lynn (May 27, 2005)

In Modern Arnis we have 12 basic angles.

Hock Hochheim (who I first starting learning a blend of GM Remy's and GM Ernesto's sytems from) taught the 12 strikes from Modern Arnis and then expanded them to include different types of strikes, different grips etc. etc. (seems kind of like the Pekiti Tirsa post).  In time though Hock distanced himself from the 12 angles of attack (from Modern Arnis) and has simplified it to teaching positions on a clock face mainly teaching 12, 3, 6, and 9 and keeping the concepts of the different strikes on these main lines.

Hock also in his SDMS program adapted the 12 angles to a two handed grip pattern that expanded to 15 angles and then later to I think 36.  But these were geared to rifle/bayonet or staff length strikes.

In Kombatan Arnis (GM Ernesto's system) he teaches different striking angles or different feeding angles for each of his sub systems or different types of strikes.  For instance Ocho Ocho (figure eight), Abaniko Doblada, Sungeti (thrusting) etc. etc.  He also has a different numbering system for his double stick feeding pattern.

Got to take my son to school
Mark


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## arnisador (May 27, 2005)

Dekiti Tirsia Siradas also does its 12 angles with different flavors, but they're still just 12 angles.

In Modern Arnis there are 12 numbered strikes, but angles 6,7 and 10,11 are usually taught as the same angle, so that there are only 10 distinct angles. (Some people will find a way to make 10,11 different by hooking them more or something, but I learned them as 6,7 done higher.) Remember, 12 is a special number!


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## CMS (May 27, 2005)

Nanalo74 said:
			
		

> There are literally hundreds of numbering systems in the FMA. It depends on the region, the system, what they thought was the most important angle, the combat philosophy of the system, etc. As others have said before me, don't worry yourself with numbering the angles per se. Somebody's Angle 2 could be your Angle 1 if that's the main strike you employ in combat.
> 
> Vic www.combatartsusa.com


I agree. How well you strike is more important than memorizing numbering systems. 

Excellant summary of Pekiti Tersia by Mr. Trasker!


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## tsefreeflow (May 31, 2005)

Blindside said:
			
		

> My Serrada instructor used 14 basic attacks, my Inosanto-blend was 12. My Pekiti-Tersia instructor uses "64 attacks" as the basis of instruction, but that isn't just striking angles as it includes defensive actions as well.
> 
> Lamont


Who is/was your Serrada teacher if I may ask??


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## arnisandyz (Jun 1, 2005)

Where does the #12 come from?  Is it just a coincidence many sytems came up with 12?  It is a fact that more than 86% of the Filipino population is Roman Catholic. I have heard stories about the number 12 refering to the 12 apostles of Jesus. (Just as I heard that "3" which is very prevailant in FMA comes from the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, holy Spirit). Don't know if this is accurate or not, but it would be interesting to see if certain styles that evolved in areas that practice Catholicism use 12 angles verses 8 or 10 from a system that developed in areas that practice a Muslim or other faith.


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## Blindside (Jun 1, 2005)

Whoops, Serrada is a 12 strike system as well, why the heck did I write 14?

Anywhoo, to answer your question tsefreeflow, my instructor was Ron Robles, I'm not sure if he is teaching anymore.

Lamont


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## Andrew Green (Jun 1, 2005)

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Where does the #12 come from? Is it just a coincidence many sytems came up with 12? It is a fact that more than 86% of the Filipino population is Roman Catholic. I have heard stories about the number 12 refering to the 12 apostles of Jesus. (Just as I heard that "3" which is very prevailant in FMA comes from the Holy Trinity - Father, Son, holy Spirit). Don't know if this is accurate or not, but it would be interesting to see if certain styles that evolved in areas that practice Catholicism use 12 angles verses 8 or 10 from a system that developed in areas that practice a Muslim or other faith.


 I really doubt it...  People can find ways to connect any 2 things if they look for it.  

 12 is a good number.  It gets used lots, in all places.  

 12 x 1 
 6 x 2
 4 x 3

 It divides up nicely, thats one reason.

 12 hour clock

 12 month year

 12 donuts


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## Bammx2 (Jun 1, 2005)

Wes Tasker said:
			
		

> Pekiti Tirsia has an interesting progression as far as angles of attack go...
> 
> One would traditionally start out with the "Sabay Sabay Nga Sugod" which are 6 categories of strikes - jab, slash, takedown, overhead, uppercut, and close spacing. These teach basic body mechanics, strike characteristics (i.e. - a jab just hits the target and withdraws, where a slash goes through the target and withdraws, overhead combines a counter-offensive move in the middle of two strikes, takedown teaches to do a baiting type strike followed by a hand hit...), etc.
> 
> ...


 HooYaa! Now thats what I'm talkin' bout!:ultracool

 A little more,actually...
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 I do thank you for that,great contribution!


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## Drifter (Jun 1, 2005)

I follow the 12 angles found in James Keating's Knifecraft series. Is this the same as the Inosanto numbering system?


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## OULobo (Jun 1, 2005)

Our system has 24 strikes, but it all boils down to about 9 basic angles.


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## Blindside (Jun 1, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> I follow the 12 angles found in James Keating's Knifecraft series. Is this the same as the Inosanto numbering system?



I don't think it is the same, I remember trying to reprogram myself when I took one of his (Keatings) seminars.  'course you also have to be careful about what you call an "Inosanto" numbering system, I've run across a couple of his instructors that use different ones.  

Lamont


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## Bammx2 (Jun 4, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> I follow the 12 angles found in James Keating's Knifecraft series. Is this the same as the Inosanto numbering system?


 I definately thank you for all the info!
 This is great so far.....

 But now I have one question.

  I did not think of James Keating having striking angles.....duh..
 Is there any chance of seeing an example of this?

 I am fairly new to Keatings work and from what I have heard and read on him.....I am most intrigued,to say the least!

 Thanks again!

 :asian:


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## Drifter (Jun 4, 2005)

Yup, he certainly used them in his Knifecraft Series. They were introduced in Tape 2. 

Here is a link to his site. The numbering system from the Series is found at the bottom of the page. 5, 6, and 7 are thrusts. 8 is a large circular cut.

 Good luck in training!


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## Bammx2 (Jun 4, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> Yup, he certainly used them in his Knifecraft Series. They were introduced in Tape 2.
> 
> Here is a link to his site. The numbering system from the Series is found at the bottom of the page. 5, 6, and 7 are thrusts. 8 is a large circular cut.
> 
> Good luck in training!


 Thanks muchly for that!

 That number 8 is a hard one to get my head round though.........:erg:


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## Drifter (Jun 5, 2005)

Think about cutting in a circle, then rotate it 90 degrees and that's the angle that 8 is. 

 Alternatively, think of a bicycle, and think about the way that your foot moves as it pedals. That's kind of the way your hand moves. 

 Lastly, if you want another example, put your hand on your forehead. Move your hand forward and up towards the ceiling without fully extending your arm. Move it forward and down almost touching the computer screen all the way down. Now go down and back along the keyboard and back to the starting place on your forehead. 

 I hope that explains it, it's very difficult to put into words. I think the motion is typically called a Redondo?


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## Bammx2 (Jun 6, 2005)

Drifter said:
			
		

> Think about cutting in a circle, then rotate it 90 degrees and that's the angle that 8 is.
> 
> Alternatively, think of a bicycle, and think about the way that your foot moves as it pedals. That's kind of the way your hand moves.
> 
> ...


 AH-HA!

 I have it now!
 It especially rang true when you mentioned "redondo".
  I wasn't really sure because 2 of the striking angles we use in rapid arnis I personally, do not see as  target angles,but actual techniques.
 That what I was getting with Mr.Keatings angle 8.

 I'm just happy I have a better understanding now!

 Thanks again.:asian:


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## K Williams (Jun 10, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Dekiti Tirsia Siradas also does its 12 angles with different flavors, but they're still just 12 angles.
> 
> In Modern Arnis there are 12 numbered strikes, but angles 6,7 and 10,11 are usually taught as the same angle, so that there are only 10 distinct angles. (Some people will find a way to make 10,11 different by hooking them more or something, but I learned them as 6,7 done higher.) Remember, 12 is a special number!



I learned 6 and 7 as thrusts to the sub-clavian artery & 10 and 11 as thrusts to the eyes.


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## Bammx2 (Jun 10, 2005)

In Rapid Arnis,we have 12 angles with 6 & 7 being thrusts to the upper left & right chest or under the jaw bone on both sides.

10 & 11 being watiks to both temples,which I actually consider a technique and not angles..but it still works!


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## arnisador (Jun 10, 2005)

K Williams said:
			
		

> I learned 6 and 7 as thrusts to the sub-clavian artery & 10 and 11 as thrusts to the eyes.


 Me too. Different targets, but the same _angles_.

 The WMAA has since dropped 10, 11 because of this redundancy. Some people practiced them with 10, 11 being, say, hooking or abanco shots, but I learned them from Tim Hartman and Remy Presas as thrusts, just like 6, 7.


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