# Wing Chun's Weakness



## ModernVisage (Feb 17, 2012)

Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).


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## mook jong man (Feb 17, 2012)

ModernVisage said:


> Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).



As with other martial arts the weakness is only in the individual practitioner and their training methods, I can do Wing Chun , I can take a hit , only just yesterday I got cracked in the eye socket and it didn't stop me , hurt like a bastard , but it did not stop me. 

I can also ground fight , use a stick - single or double grip method or use a knife.
It's up to the individual how much they are willing to push the envelope in training realistically , It's not everybodies cup of tea and I can understand that.

Chi Sau can be as gentle or as brutal as the two partners want to make it , but if you never experience the hard contact then you are going to be in for a bit of a shock.


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## Nabakatsu (Feb 17, 2012)

I believe fully that a person who doesn't practice much and isn't very strong can render an opponent unable to continue attacking with a few well placed chain punches to the throat is they are using decent mechanics.
That aside.. I believe we should train just as hard as anyone, it's up to us as individuals to make this art work for us, or anything.


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## bully (Feb 18, 2012)

Agree with the sentiments of MJM, it's the practitioner which is the weakness of any style.

A lot of CMA is guilty of not enough sparring/pressure testing, Wing Chun included. You could say that some Karate/Kickboxing etc etc schools are like this too.

I would say Muay Thai isn't as guilty of this as other arts.

Just my 2 cents (pence if you're a Brit)


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## seasoned (Feb 18, 2012)

This is true with any art, you only get out of it what you are willing to put into it.


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## WC_lun (Feb 18, 2012)

ModernVisage said:


> Nothing else to say other than that. What would the experts in this martial art have to say about this simple style and its weaknesses. If you're wondering I am so cross trained I wouldn't say that I have a style other than my own but could always use more instruction. My guess is the ability to trade blows or grapple or their belief that their grace will protect them from any volley (or that wheel punches can knock someone out even if they do not condition their bodies or regularly practice).



All I can say is that the Wing Chun you are talking about is not the Wing Chun I am familiar with.


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## ModernVisage (Feb 19, 2012)

My knowledge of most martial arts is very general because I am young but I was wondering this because if someone focused on a specific martial art this would be a great one to begin with for its practicality. There are always factors to consider such as the instructor and training method. Thanks for the comments. I am also looking for some good demo videos for WC if you have examples.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 19, 2012)

Im not sure of the exact wording, but;
Trapping and Volleying isnt as effective as its made out to be, despite how efficient the speed makes it look. If even one hit were to connect, it would at least make the target recoil back. But this isnt a weakness in Trapping and Volleying (I think Chain Punching is a better word. Or something). Its a weakness in that from what Ive seen at alot of Wing Chun places, They dont teach that strikes have an impact that changes things. They dont teach changing to something more effective after 1-3 of those fast, not-exactly-finishing hits connect; And instead focus on doing 10-20, then exiting out, or doing something that assumes they remained stationary.

So, more or less like the others said, but with My own extention.

Its how You learn it, and how its Taught to You.


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## mook jong man (Feb 19, 2012)

In our lineage we call it "Continuous Punch" not chain punch.
although we do have something called chain kicking , a rapid barrage of three low kicks combined with hand trapping.

In regards to the head moving when it is struck that is true , but the funny thing about humans is that they don't like being hit in the face so they tend to try and block and hold their arms in front of their head to try and fend off the blows , usually with a lot of tension in their arms.

This plays right into the Wing Chun practitioners hands , because now he has a handle to grab and actually pull you into his strikes and increase their effectiveness.

By it's very definition trapping range is close and involves immobilization of one or both of the opponents arms as they are being hit.
So his head or body is not really going anywhere because one or both of his arms are under control.

Most of what people would see on video around the place is just straight chain punching , but if any resistance is shown then chain punching can be combined with wrist latching , this is a hook like motion of the hand on the return phase of the punch as the other punch is going forward.

In effect it is dragging the opponent into the punch by hooking on to his arm, this can be done continuously until the opponent drops.

These techniques are combined with the constant pressure exerted from the stance moving forward , the feeling of wanting to go straight through the opponent like a laser beam.

So yes the opponent does move but it is usually backwards and off balance in an attempt to ward off the strikes as the Wing Chun guy moves forward attacking his center of balance and sticking to him like glue.


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## Cyriacus (Feb 19, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> In our lineage we call it "Continuous Punch" not chain punch.
> although we do have something called chain kicking , a rapid barrage of three low kicks combined with hand trapping.
> 
> *Good to know, thanks.*
> ...



*nods


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## mook jong man (Feb 19, 2012)

Just to be clear , it is not what would normally considered by most people to be a grab.
You don't physically grab the arm using the thumb , this is much too slow and inefficient.
It also takes too much time to disengage from the arm in case I have to use that hand to defend.

It's basically just a very relaxed draping of the hand over the opponents arm and using what we call "elbow force" to pull the arm down and in towards us at a 45 degree angle , it serves the purpose of clearing the obstacle away for striking and affecting the opponents balance simultaneously.
Wing Chun people call it the Fook Sau.

You can also use just a cutting down movement of the arm using shearing elbow force but this offers a bit less control than wrist latching.


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## Domino (Feb 20, 2012)

I know we different but sifu says like a wet cloth MJM 

Not having a 'style' is better and try to stay open minded with the shapes.
Yeah you totally get out of it what you put in as Mook Jong man said. Also, do a bit of your own research.
While I like the structures, the exercising and forms of training, not all tools are applicable sometimes imo (intemediate level) so I am still sort of finding my own way with shapes for a very realistic situation.


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## ilhe4e12345 (Feb 20, 2012)

i was always under the impression that its not the style its the skill of the person....i have had jobs in the past working as a bouncer (at a strip club for a few years) and have been training multiple styles of martial arts (7 Star Praying Mantis, Xingyi, Wing Chun, Long Fist 1) and know many martial artists.....and its not the style that dictates what they can do, but their own personal ability. I am good friends with three people that i have been training with for years now. 2 of them have been boxing since they were young (one guy has been training for about 12 years another for 8 or so) and a good friend that I have worked with as a bouncer has been training TKD for 10 years. I can tell you just from person sparring with them that its not the style.....

boxing is very basic compared to CMA (just as an example) and even though I know trapping and grabbing from my mantis and WC they are able to get out of it very quickly or know what to look for. My friend who trains TKD also is able to use his style to his full advantage against ANY other style of fighter. This being said WC can be good against any other style depending on the person and how they train themselves. I will never be an "ulitmate fighter" but am i confident that in a street fight or dangerous encounter that ill be able to use what i know in WC to protect and defend myself? Yes as a matter of fact WC has saved me for a rather dangerous bar encounter (inside gate block, strike to throat) stopped the guy cold in his tracks and gave me enough time to get out of there....and thats just basics  

I only know SLT and the basics of WC. Just starting the footwork and sparring more and more with WC rather then mantis but with the little I know in WC, i dont see how someone who puts a lot into their training cant be good against another style.


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## ModernVisage (Feb 26, 2012)

All of you guys have great posts including the ability to utilize many systems and styles strong points (thus how it was made through the selection). I've always fancied the way I'm starting to notice its influences from bagua, xingyi, and many other styles.
@
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/member.php?25430-ilhe4e12345*ilhe4e12345*  good to hear you've been in a conflict. I was drunk once and being a dumbass with one of my friends and ended up getting in a drunken boxing match with him where he used wing chun vs my sloppy drunken style and (at this point blacked out of memory) [first time I drank for months] ended up getting a nice wallop on the chin but otherwise noticed no damage on me. 

Mantis sounds like a great mix with wing chun. Plucking is a subject of interest for me. Does this belongs in another thread but would Xingyi and Mantis be a good mix? Recently I've been getting into JKD and Xingyi... More later. BRB


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## Cyriacus (Feb 26, 2012)

ilhe4e12345 said:


> i was always under the impression that its not the style its the skill of the person....
> 
> *Its 50/50 between the Skill of the Person and the Quality of Instruction. Lets never just numb it down to the person.*
> 
> ...



*nods


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## WingChunIan (Feb 26, 2012)

biggest weakness in Wing Chun is it's sheer popularity and focus on street application rather than sport (which is also a strength). This combination has meant taht Wing Chun has more than it's fair share of sub standard instructors, many of whom lack real instruction, but who get away with passing off what they do. This self fulfilling cycle has continued since the kung fu boom of the seventies and is the same as was seen in karate, only because of the lack of competition it is far easier to hide in Wing Chun than in other arts. When taught well and legitimately Wing Chun's effectiveness is only limited by the practitioner and the way that it's trained as stated above.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 26, 2012)

WingChunIan said:


> biggest weakness in Wing Chun is it's sheer popularity and focus on street application rather than sport (which is also a strength). This combination has meant taht Wing Chun has more than it's fair share of sub standard instructors, many of whom lack real instruction, but who get away with passing off what they do. This self fulfilling cycle has continued since the kung fu boom of the seventies and is the same as was seen in karate, only because of the lack of competition it is far easier to hide in Wing Chun than in other arts. When taught well and legitimately Wing Chun's effectiveness is only limited by the practitioner and the way that it's trained as stated above.



-----------------------------------------------

True.

joy chaudhuri


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## geezer (Feb 26, 2012)

ModernVisage said:


> Mantis sounds like a great mix with wing chun. Plucking is a subject of interest for me  ...would Xingyi and Mantis be a good mix? Recently I've been getting into JKD and Xingyi... BRB



I would not recommend _mixing_ WC with other arts. First get your WC basics down cold. Then if you want to branch out, choose an art that focuses on a different area or range...  something that _meshes_ rather than mixes, if you get my drift. WC is a very tightly integrated system. To mix in other stuff is like bolting chrome garbage from the auto-accessory store onto a Porsche. You'll just mess it up. Even adding good stuff from somewhere else is a bad idea. You wouldn't put Beemer or Mercedes parts in your Porsche either. So if you want to dabble, find something totally separate.

For example, I complement my WC with Escrima. _Not_ because I feel WC needs more, but just because I like Escrima. Through Escrima, I get an additional perspective on stick, blade, and improvised weaponry, as well as _dumog _or grappling and groundfighting. But I do not mix my Escrima and WC. When I'm in close, fighting with empty hands, it's pure WC. Now, it's true that our Escrima teaches empty hand fighting too, and our Escrima empty hands have a strong boxing influence. But I don't box. I use that training primarily to, as Sun Tzu famously said, "To know my enemy and myself" and apply my WC more effectively.


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## simplewc101 (Feb 26, 2012)

mantis is a very effective combination with wing chun, and it goes without saying chin na can be incorporated beautifully as well.
to answer OP's question, wing chun's only weakness is students that don't practice enough


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## Jason Striker II (Feb 26, 2012)

Many good comments have already been made here, but let me just add this.

The strength of a "style" is simultaneously its weakness. In WC, the strong points are the straight-line attack and trapping. Ergo, if an opponent can either stay outside via kicking, or shut this down inside via grappling, the "style" breaks down. 

All MA people today know that it's impossible for anyone to master all phases of fighting (kicking, striking, trapping, grappling, and weapons), and that all you can really do is to specialize in an area you feel comfortable with (i.e. learn a "style"), and yet still have some competency in ALL the other areas because - all the variables of self-defense (i.e. the what, who, where, when, why) are largely unforeseeable. (Far more important for self-defense than any "style" or "technique" is simply constant awareness!)

Also, last note, although I have limited training in WC, I would recommend the books/vids put out by Randy Williams; IMO, his working of that system is the most logical and well-rounded.


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## Vajramusti (Feb 27, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Many good comments have already been made here, but let me just add this.
> 
> The strength of a "style" is simultaneously its weakness. In WC, the strong points are the straight-line attack and trapping. Ergo, if an opponent can either stay outside via kicking, or shut this down inside via grappling, the "style" breaks down.
> 
> ...


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You say that you have limited training in WC- yet you comment on strengths and weaknesses and make recommendations!!!
joy chaudhuri


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## yak sao (Feb 27, 2012)

Jason Striker II said:


> Many good comments have already been made here, but let me just add this.
> 
> The strength of a "style" is simultaneously its weakness. In WC, the strong points are the straight-line attack and trapping. Ergo, if an opponent can either stay outside via kicking, or shut this down inside via grappling, the "style" breaks down.
> 
> ...



Many people look at WC as limited. They see it as a close range, "hands only " style of kung fu that is good at trapping. 
 WC is not a kung fu style...it is a system. It is concept based, not technique based.
It teaches the body to move in a whole new way to generate maximum power with minimum effort while at the same time being able to dissolve powerful attacks.
WC is effective at fighting against all fighting ranges by moving in close to a range that most MA's choose not to fight from. This allows us to shut down kickers on the outside extreme and neutralize grapplers on the inside extreme.

If there is a weakness to WC, it is not in its concepts, it would have to be in the people who practice it. Too many of us are guilty of not pressure testing our art against realistic attacks from other MA.


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## zepedawingchun (Mar 28, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Many people look at WC as limited. They see it as a close range, "hands only " style of kung fu that is good at trapping.
> WC is not a kung fu style...it is a system. It is concept based, not technique based.
> It teaches the body to move in a whole new way to generate maximum power with minimum effort while at the same time being able to dissolve powerful attacks.
> WC is effective at fighting against all fighting ranges by moving in close to a range that most MA's choose not to fight from. This allows us to shut down kickers on the outside extreme and neutralize grapplers on the inside extreme.
> ...



100% true and I agree with this whole heartedly.  People who say Wing Chun is limited have not *learned the whole system *to understand it fully.


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## punisher73 (Mar 28, 2012)

yak sao said:


> Many people look at WC as limited. They see it as a close range, "hands only " style of kung fu that is good at trapping.
> WC is not a kung fu style...it is a system. It is concept based, not technique based.
> It teaches the body to move in a whole new way to generate maximum power with minimum effort while at the same time being able to dissolve powerful attacks.
> *WC is effective at fighting against all fighting ranges by moving in close to a range that most MA's choose not to fight from*. This allows us to shut down kickers on the outside extreme and neutralize grapplers on the inside extreme.
> ...




You pretty much just restated what Mr. Striker said, but on the positive side. You point out that WC can move in to take away a kickers weapons. Yep, and as Mr. Striker pointed out that if you CAN'T do that, then you will get beat. It is not a slam on WC, just a fact of any martial art that prefers a certain range and it's tools are designed to get to that range.  Because as you pointed out, it is effective at close range, it is NOT effective at fighting all ranges.  You wouldn't stay in kicking distance, you close the gap to be in close where you want to be.

For example, we could say that BJJ is great because we close in the gap and then take the fight to the ground where we will use dominate positioning and control to beat an opponent. Yep, but what if you can't get there to use your tools?

In either example, it is never the concepts of the art that were questioned, but just what happens if you can't get the fight to the range where you want it to be.


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## geezer (Mar 28, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> ...as you pointed out, it is effective at close range, it is NOT effective at fighting all ranges. You wouldn't stay in kicking distance, you close the gap to be in close where you want to be ...it is never the concepts of the art that were questioned, but just what happens if you can't get the fight to the range where you want it to be.



This is precisely why certain groups have made some changes in WC in the last few decades. Bruce Lee, famously found that chasing an evasive, long range fighter created real problems in closing to WC's strongest range. So, many in WC have modified their footwork to close faster. When the Gracies came on the scene in the late '80s, others found that grappling presented problems they weren't adequately prepared for, so some WC groups have worked at developing "anti-grappling" techniques -- not to out-grapple the grappler, but to counter and move the fight back into their preferred zone, the close quarters stand-up, striking range.


BTW I'd second the previous comments that WCs strong in-fighting range makes it a natural for self defense where the attacker is closing on you, and where going to the ground may be a very dangerous option.  On the other hand, this focus  is one of several things that make it less applicable in a sporting situation.


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## Eric_H (Mar 28, 2012)

Ip Man line wing chun is weak in the longer ranges and like all CMA has no ground wrestling ability.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 28, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Ip Man line wing chun is weak in the longer ranges and like all CMA has no ground wrestling ability.


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An over -generaliztion! Depends on person, knowledge, training and experience.

joy chaudhuri


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## mook jong man (Mar 28, 2012)

If you have the bloke backed up against a wall , there is no long range.


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## Cyriacus (Mar 28, 2012)

mook jong man said:


> If you have the bloke backed up against a wall , there is no long range.


Im not sure when exactly Youd have a long range fight.


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## geezer (Mar 28, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not sure when exactly Youd have a long range fight.



Well, on some of the other WC forums, the web-warriors posting seem to have long-range fights all the time ...fighting by email.


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## bully (Mar 29, 2012)

Spot on Geezer, my thoughts exactly. Thank god MT isn't like that.


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## punisher73 (Mar 29, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not sure when exactly Youd have a long range fight.



Personally, I have seen it one time.  A person trained well in boxing kept himself out of range and peppered the other guy with punchs and then would move back out of range.  It was a jail situation where the boxer was older and a young gang member was trying to pick a fight with him.  The other fights I responded to or broke up was that once contact was made they stayed close.  Many time they would grab on to each other and fall to the ground, but no skilled takedowns.  There there were a couple bearhug bodyslams where one person went down and then was kicked/stomped.


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## Eric_H (Mar 29, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> An over -generaliztion! Depends on person, knowledge, training and experience.
> 
> joy chaudhuri



I disagree, though many folks have imported ways of dealing with longer range situations, it still remains that pre-contact is the most dangerous place for IP line WC to find itself. Other than Dog Boxing, I've never seen ground wrestling in TCMA, and certainly no arts that have focused on it as much as BJJ, if you have please direct me to it.


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## Eric_H (Mar 29, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Im not sure when exactly Youd have a long range fight.



So arts that focus on it like Hung Ga and Choy Lei Fut aren't effective?


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## punisher73 (Mar 29, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> I disagree, though many folks have imported ways of dealing with longer range situations, it still remains that pre-contact is the most dangerous place for IP line WC to find itself. Other than Dog Boxing, *I've never seen ground wrestling in TCMA*, and certainly no arts that have focused on it as much as BJJ, if you have please direct me to it.



I think that is an important distinction.  Until recently, ground wrestling has always been in the context of combative sports.  Traditional arts have ground FIGHTING, that is, getting up off the ground immediately and protecting yourself from the ground, but their focus was not on staying there or taking it there.  Doing so would be dangerous in a civilian self defense situation (NOT saying that it's not important to understand that range/type of fighting, only why it wasn't emphasized in the past).


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## Eric_H (Mar 29, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> I think that is an important distinction.  Until recently, ground wrestling has always been in the context of combative sports.  Traditional arts have ground FIGHTING, that is, getting up off the ground immediately and protecting yourself from the ground, but their focus was not on staying there or taking it there.  Doing so would be dangerous in a civilian self defense situation (NOT saying that it's not important to understand that range/type of fighting, only why it wasn't emphasized in the past).



Agreed, we have been over it many times on this forum (and others) the difference between ground fighting vs ground wrestling, if it's a good idea, etc. I'll let each person decide on their own if it's a good idea or not, but the fact is that with only WC most folks don't have much chance if a ground wrestler is able to get a takedown.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 29, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> I disagree, though many folks have imported ways of dealing with longer range situations, it still remains that pre-contact is the most dangerous place for IP line WC to find itself. Other than Dog Boxing, I've never seen ground wrestling in TCMA, and certainly no arts that have focused on it as much as BJJ, if you have please direct me to it.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I prefer discussing to debating. So- I try to make my point and let it gur POVs differ considerably. Good Ip man wing chun does not need to categorize ranges of martial action. In good versions of  Ip man wing chun there is plenty of foot work and structural integrity to close gaps between opponents and dealing with the slightest of contacts.. Unfortunately there are lots of mediocre wing chun that does  not have good structure or mobility.

BJJ is good training for rolling and staying on the ground. But that is not the main objective in wing chun. There are plenty of tools in a good wing chun tool box for dealing with self defense on the ground 
and not staying there. Generalizing about  all of TCMA or even about all versions of a style is not easy and not usually accurate given the diversities in TCMA..

joy chaudhuri


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## Eric_H (Mar 29, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> I prefer discussing to debating. So- I try to make my point and let it gur POVs differ considerably. Good Ip man wing chun does not need to categorize ranges of martial action. In good versions of  Ip man wing chun there is plenty of foot work and structural integrity to close gaps between opponents and dealing with the slightest of contacts.. Unfortunately there are lots of mediocre wing chun that does  not have good structure or mobility.
> 
> BJJ is good training for rolling and staying on the ground. But that is not the main objective in wing chun. There are plenty of tools in a good wing chun tool box for dealing with self defense on the ground
> ...



Fair enough Joy, do you have any examples or videos from Sifu Fong that demonstrate how you guys handle pre-contact to engagement? I'm not above changing my opinion if a good case can be made.

TCMA doesn't have ground wrestling. That's not a generalization, it's a fact. We've already discussed on this thread some of the cultural/combat reasons as to why. Having seen multiple videos of Ip line WC on the ground defense, based on both my WC and wrestling backgrounds I can't say it's anything that looks even close to effective.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 29, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Fair enough Joy, do you have any examples or videos from Sifu Fong that demonstrate how you guys handle pre-contact to engagement? I'm not above changing my opinion if a good case can be made.
> 
> TCMA doesn't have ground wrestling. That's not a generalization, it's a fact. We've already discussed on this thread some of the cultural/combat reasons as to why. Having seen multiple videos of Ip line WC on the ground defense, based on both my WC and wrestling backgrounds I can't say it's anything that looks even close to effective.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Fong sifu did some old instructional videos almost 30 years ago on the forms under Panther productions umbrella. There is much more to what we/I do besides those old videos. Fong sifu has not put any videos himself on Youtube though some students have put up things. Forms. motions and drills are for specific instructional purposes. But you become fluid and put  forms away.Ip Man did, Wong Shong leung did and Fong Sifu did and does when needed.  From 1979 there is an old demo that was not rehearsed much which gives some idea of the fluidity of a good Ip Man line wing chun for demo anyway.

See: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PoiOVepwGo>


Your second sentence highlights your opinion based on what you have  apparently seen. My opinion is different based on what i know and have  seen When a sound wing chun structure is developed it need not abandon  you whether you are vertical, horizontal or in  some other position.

I dont do Garrett Gee wing chun or Lowenhagen wing chun- so we have quite different perspectives on what we mean by wing chun. I would rather leave it at that... diversity.

With good wishes, joy chaudhuri


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## Cyriacus (Mar 29, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> So arts that focus on it like Hung Ga and Choy Lei Fut aren't effective?


I never said that.

Im sure both of those Arts have some method of getting out of close range in the first place, much like how Wing Chun does have a couple (Im not sure, but I wouldnt be shocked if it were actually literally 2) of longer strikes.


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## Eric_H (Mar 30, 2012)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Your second sentence highlights your opinion based on what you have  apparently seen. My opinion is different based on what i know and have  seen When a sound wing chun structure is developed it need not abandon  you whether you are vertical, horizontal or in  some other position.
> 
> ...



Joy,

Thanks for the clip, it's a trip to see those old movies! 

In regards to WC structure on the ground, yes we obviously have some different ideas of what constitutes WC structure. Having done what was billed as "WC" ground fighting (13 kicks from the ground, jujitsu etc) under the Meng regime perhaps I am a little burned on it. Still, I have yet to see or experience anything from WC that is functionally capable of dealing with a wrestler once your upright structure compromised. I have seen some silly things such as people doing Siu Nim Tao lying on the floor, or trying to say it falls under Biu Gee because the structure is broken. Hopefully one day I can meet up with some of your students again and they can change my opinion or perhaps my Sifu will have some answers later on in my current system. Till then, without the hard evidence, I will maintain my opinion.

Best,


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## Eric_H (Mar 30, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I never said that.
> 
> Im sure both of those Arts have some method of getting out of close range in the first place, much like how Wing Chun does have a couple (Im not sure, but I wouldnt be shocked if it were actually literally 2) of longer strikes.



You said you're not sure when a long range fight could even exist, I simply pointed out that there are many arts (IMO Hung Ga And CLF being two of the nastier ones) that emphasize that range. If that range was not possible to maintain and could not be advantageous in some way, those arts would not focus on it.


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## Vajramusti (Mar 30, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> Joy,
> 
> Thanks for the clip, it's a trip to see those old movies!
> 
> ...


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## Zenjael (Apr 3, 2012)

I don't think I would label any system simple, so I'd be careful saying those words, to whom, otherwise you might cause offensive.

Fook Sau is something I like a lot, because it lets me take a Krav Maga side elbow, and learn how to wield it both as a strike, offensively, and for defense. In essence, cross training between Wing Chun and Krav Maga allowed me to re-utilize a technique they both use in a new manner. From my understanding, though, fook Sau is fairly difficult to master; I'll be honest in saying that while the elbow allows for great control of the other's arm (making them have to fight around it) if you do lose contact things can get hairy quick.

I often think of martial art styles as modes of thoughts, philosophy of movement if you will. Each style represents a different way to fight, and to think as well. As diverse as people themselves within the same art. I remember sparring once with someone who we both knew could annihalate me, but who wasn't sure himself of my own ability. We ended up sparring in a way harder than I think I've ever had to spar, and yet the entire time I felt no frustration, no anger. It was the exactly same feeling I would get when sitting down to a chess game with someone I knew to be either my equal or better.

When I spar, I am not sure if others are like this, I can feel intentions. I cannot see well, and so I practice blindfolded sparring now and again... but after awhile there is a feeling of sublimeness which overcomes you in the ring, almost like a bliss. I remember each move of that encounter with the Tai Chi practitioner; I remember where he deliberately left himself open for me to take advantage of, and when I didn't, seeing it to be a trap, he remarked with dissapointment that I hadn't employed anything interesting to him. My only reply was why would I do something interesting, to gain the attention of a snake, and he laughed. We would fight, and after a particular hit struck or missed, either one of us might laugh. We had conversation without words, responding to each other through fists, and kicks, and occasional words. I have never felt anything like it, I hope I am not alone.


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## yak sao (Apr 3, 2012)

Your post reminds me of this quote:

_The fish trap exists because of the fish.  Once you've gotten the fish you can forget the trap.  The rabbit snare exists because of the rabbit. Once you've gotten the rabbit, you can forget the snare.  Words exist because of meaning.  Once you've gotten the meaning, you can forget the words.  Where can I find a man who has forgotten words so I can talk with him? __ 
~Chuang Tzu                                                                                    _


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## mvbrown21 (Apr 3, 2012)

Zenjael said:


> .....I often think of martial art styles as modes of thoughts, philosophy of movement if you will. Each style represents a different way to fight, and to think as well. As diverse as people themselves within the same art. I remember sparring once with someone who we both knew could annihalate me, but who wasn't sure himself of my own ability. We ended up sparring in a way harder than I think I've ever had to spar, and yet the entire time I felt no frustration, no anger. It was the exactly same feeling I would get when sitting down to a chess game with someone I knew to be either my equal or better.
> 
> When I spar, I am not sure if others are like this, I can feel intentions. I cannot see well, and so I practice blindfolded sparring now and again... but after awhile there is a feeling of sublimeness which overcomes you in the ring, almost like a bliss. I remember each move of that encounter with the Tai Chi practitioner; I remember where he deliberately left himself open for me to take advantage of, and when I didn't, seeing it to be a trap, he remarked with dissapointment that I hadn't employed anything interesting to him. My only reply was why would I do something interesting, to gain the attention of a snake, and he laughed. We would fight, and after a particular hit struck or missed, either one of us might laugh. We had conversation without words, responding to each other through fists, and kicks, and occasional words. I have never felt anything like it, I hope I am not alone.



You're not alone


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## Cyriacus (Apr 3, 2012)

Eric_H said:


> You said you're not sure when a long range fight could even exist, I simply pointed out that there are many arts (IMO Hung Ga And CLF being two of the nastier ones) that emphasize that range. If that range was not possible to maintain and could not be advantageous in some way, those arts would not focus on it.


I realise this - Im just saying, that to My knowledge, Hung Ga, for example, also teaches getting to that Range. Wing Chun is based on getting closer, as oppose to further away. Of course an Art based on getting further away, would be full well capable of it.


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## Zenjael (Apr 5, 2012)

I just realized I made a terrible error in naming the technique I had fook sau. Please apologize for my err, the utilization of your elbow like that is not fook sau, though that technique can be used both offensively and defensively. I don't like it cause the shotokan and Isshin ryu people I practice with push their punches, so if you try to block Ive seen a lot of people jam their fingers attempting it. While I haven't myself, watching the newer people yelping when they attempt it is also a lesson to me about the technique and its utilization. I haven't practiced enough Wing Chun to really have a great grasp on the system, though I understand its mechanics and know its stances and bi weekly practice a few drills. Not the same thing though as legit training in the art, but it will be helpful should I ever pick it up down the road. Way down the road. lol.


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