# New to Kenpo..Need advice



## BuddhaGirl (Feb 11, 2006)

Hello everyone...

I am very new to Kenpo. Last week I took my first two lessons. I am a 40 something woman who has always had an interest in the Martial Arts, but never attempted it until now. My first two lessons were pretty good and the teacher was great, but the first lessons were kind of rushed. Basically the teacher took me aside and taught me some basic punches and blocks. I got them at the time but I felt a bit overwhelmed with so much information in such a short time.  Afterwards I had him write down the names of the punches and blocks he taught me, figuring I could go home and look them up on the internet and perhaps find something describing how these are done so I can practice at home. My brain just did not retain everything he taught me during these first two classes (maybe its the age). The next class I take I will be put in with everyone else (guys ranging from yellow to brown belts) and I am fearful I just wont be able to keep up.

I asked the teacher if there was a book on Kenpo that showed/described the basics and beyond and he said no. So in my search I found this board. I have enjoyed reading the posts and will probably learn a lot here in the future, but right now I am confused. This is not just a passing phase for me, I am serious about learning the art and progressing. But unless I can retain and learn the basics I fear I will just be a burden in class.

So I guess what I am asking here (in a round-about way) is where can I find something that will describe how to do the basic moves so as I learn then quickly during the course of the class, I will be able to come home and really learn them. In searching I find a lot of information on forms and detailed descriptions of belt requirements, but the very basics are no where to be found.

The punches and blocks I was taught are as follows:

Straight Thrust Punch, Straight snap punch, vertical thrust punch, vertical snap punch, hammer inward block, vertical outward block, extended outward block, inside downward block (palm up), outside downward block, inside downward block (palm down), pushdown.

My head is swimming with all this and I really need some clarity here. Any help or advice as to where to look would be greatly appreciated. And please excuse my beginners ignorance.

Thanks...
Kerry


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## jdinca (Feb 11, 2006)

You can get a lot of good advice here. Given that you've only had two classes, you're feeling exactly the way I would expect you to feel. There are books and information available, a great deal of it here, in fact but my advice would be to just lose yourself in the process. Over the next few weeks, things will start to sink in and you won't feel so rushed and lost. Basically, you're at the starting point of learning how to learn.

Good luck and remember to have fun!


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 11, 2006)

Where are you, what style of Kenpo, name of rank of your instructor and their instructor.    You've given us a pretty generic setting in which to accurately answer your questions.

DarK LorD


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## Ceicei (Feb 11, 2006)

Welcome to MartialTalk!  I am a 39 year old female and very much involved with Kenpo.

Don't worry too much right now about trying to retain all these things at first.  You will be repeating these over and over and over and over again all through your training.  What you learned are the very basic movements and they are involved in everything we do (techniques, forms, and sets).

Kenpo can seem overwhelming.  As time goes on, things will continue to become better.  The more advanced you go, the more your mind and body will be trained to absorb all these knowledge.  In other words, you learn how to learn, and eventually will become second-nature.

If you are looking for books, a very good resource is "Infinite Insights", a five-book series written by Mr. Ed Parker.  It explains the history, background, basics, concepts, and principles.  Good stuff.

Feel free to ask here with any questions you may have regarding Kenpo.

:wavey:

- Ceicei


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## Carol (Feb 11, 2006)

Welcome!  I'm 37 and began Kenpo last summer.   It is overwhelming in the beginning.  Very overwhelming.  The owners and instructors at my school have said that being a white belt is the hardest...until one gets to black, then one feels like one has become a white belt all over again.

I actually agree with jdinca...try losing yourself in the process.  It is a humbling experience and it can be frustrating, but you will learn and grow from here.

It does take time to learn, but you will be going over these over and over...perhaps so many times that you may be instructor for more material to do.  

Remember Tiger Balm is your friend 

Wishing you a great journey!

Carol


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## rziriak (Feb 12, 2006)

You are in the first phase of your journey.  This is called the Mechanical stage or embryonic.  Your body is learning things it has never had to before.  You will be teaching your body to move in ways you've only dreamed of up until now.  This is the most frustrating portion of your journey.  Remember to incorporate your mind, body and spirit as you learn this incredible art called Kenpo.  Your mind will be challenged to think beyond all boxes.  Your body will be challenged and pushed to the limits.  Your spirit, or who you are at the very core of your being, will be challenged to expand to new and explosive potential.  If any of this makes sense, I hope it encourages you to stick with it and enjoy every step of your journey into the world of Kenpo.


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## Jonathan Randall (Feb 12, 2006)

rziriak said:
			
		

> You are in the first phase of your journey. This is called the Mechanical stage or embryonic. Your body is learning things it has never had to before. You will be teaching your body to move in ways you've only dreamed of up until now. This is the most frustrating portion of your journey. Remember to incorporate your mind, body and spirit as you learn this incredible art called Kenpo. Your mind will be challenged to think beyond all boxes. Your body will be challenged and pushed to the limits. Your spirit, or who you are at the very core of your being, will be challenged to expand to new and explosive potential. If any of this makes sense, I hope it encourages you to stick with it and enjoy every step of your journey into the world of Kenpo.


 
Beautifully said.

We all felt this way at the beginning of our martial arts journey. I remember once looking at yellow belts in awe. The test of your character is not whether or not you are a "natural" and pick everything up quickly, it is how well you persevere through these difficult first steps. Best wishes on your journey.


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## MJS (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Hello everyone...
> 
> I am very new to Kenpo. Last week I took my first two lessons. I am a 40 something woman who has always had an interest in the Martial Arts, but never attempted it until now. My first two lessons were pretty good and the teacher was great, but the first lessons were kind of rushed. Basically the teacher took me aside and taught me some basic punches and blocks. I got them at the time but I felt a bit overwhelmed with so much information in such a short time. Afterwards I had him write down the names of the punches and blocks he taught me, figuring I could go home and look them up on the internet and perhaps find something describing how these are done so I can practice at home. My brain just did not retain everything he taught me during these first two classes (maybe its the age). The next class I take I will be put in with everyone else (guys ranging from yellow to brown belts) and I am fearful I just wont be able to keep up.
> 
> ...


 
First off, Welcome to the forum and welcome to the beginning of your long journey in the art of Kenpo!

Its perfectly normal to feel a bit overhelmed when you're first beginning.  One thing to keep in mind, is that you will probably feel that way for a little while, so doin't let it get to you.  Take your time.  Everyone learns at his/her own pace, so do your best to remember what you can.  It seems like you were taught quite a bit during your first lesson.  IMO, it may have been a little too much for the first class.  There may be slight differences in the way others execute material compared to what you're learning, but we'll certianly do our best to help you out.  As its been said, these strieks will usually be done at some point during class, so that would be the best way to learn how to do them.  Get to gether with some other students of the instructor, and see if they can spend a few min. before or after class to go over things with you.

Good luck with your training!

Mike


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## kroh (Feb 12, 2006)

Welcome to Martial Talk.  Sounds like your very excited about what you are doing.  Great feeling!  Try to enjoy the ride and don't worry about the destination.  Many of the people on this board will tell you even after decades on the "road" they haven't gotten "there" yet.  The ride is the most important part.  

Funakoshi Gichin at 85 years old stated during a class he was giving that he finally understood a movement he was practicing for 45 years.  






It really is all about walking the road.  Enjoy it as you only get one crack at it...




http://www.hyoho.com/iwa1.jpg

Regards, 
Walt


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## Brother John (Feb 12, 2006)

Here's GOOD advice no matter what level of the martial arts you are embarking upon:
RELAX. 

What you are experiencing is very common, no matter the age. Just keep going. Don't worry about "keeping up", because it's not a race and it's your instructors job to help you, over time, to know and understand every facet, especially these fundamental things. You will make it. Even the Masters were at one time a white belt, trying desperately to understand how to tie that darn belt right!
1. Relax.
2. KEEP going!  (perseverance counts for a LOT)
3. Pay attention and *BE RECEPTIVE*. If you mentally berrate yourself for getting something wrong or for not remembering something....you'll Not be receptive, you'll be inside your own head getting after yourself. Though a martial artist should aim their efforts toward perfection.... it's also important to NOT be a "Perfectionist". Learn from mistakes..but keep the flame high and do you best anyway. Everyone messes up!! The Great people are the ones who get back up the Most and get back at it w/out delay.
4. Relax!!!

Also: IF you're school/instructor(s) provide or offer "Private Lessons" TAKE THEM!! Give youself a gift and a step up! Private lessons, especially early on, can have a tremendous impact on your progress! EVEN if they are more expensive, you'll probably be glad you did. (providing your instructor is even half-way decent)

OH...and welcome to Martial Talk. Carry a grain of salt and a heap of common sense through these pages and you'll probably enjoy it a lot. 
There's good information and bad... 
Very informed people, and the deluded...
Good personalities and horrible egos....
.........discern for yourself!
but enjoy!!

Your Brother
John


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 12, 2006)

Wow what great responses! I feel better already. 

Someone asked what style I was learning. It is American Kenpo and my teacher is a 5th degree black belt. I am not sure what his teacher was.

In retrospect I do think I may be over-thinking things. When I become involved in something, I tend to throw myself into it 110% and want to learn everything about it and want to be "perfect" (it's the Capricorn in me). I guess I need to just learn to cut myself some slack and as you all have said, enjoy the journey.

I think part of this is in the past 11 months I have lost 150 pounds. So I am now able to do things with my body that for most of my adult life I could not because I weighed over 300 pounds. I was never a physical person or interested in fitness, it just didn't work. Now I am addicted to moving and getting stronger and want to prove I can do these things. That is what originally made me want to learn a martial art. Not to mention the self defense aspect and the discipline. 

One thing I noticed during my first two lessons (which were free introductory lessons by the way) was that when the teacher explained to me what the block was intended to do, meaning he would show me the attack it would defend, then it stuck with me. I could relate it to an actual defensive mechanism as opposed to just a random movement made in the air. And I also seemed to carry the move out better when actually blcoking his advance. Oh, I forgot to add that he also showed me the Star Block series of moves (which I couldn't tell you anything about at this point..brain block).

I am a bit nervous about Tuesdays lesson. It will be my first with the whole class. After my introductory lessons I sat and watched the actual class and the other instructor who was teaching it really put these guys through their paces, and that was before they even did anything remotely related to Kenpo. I am talking about the warm up. It must have lasted a half an hour. He had them do 100 jumping Jacks, sit ups, push ups (3 different kinds), running in place etc. I was very intimidated. I am sure I will drop over dead just from the attempt of 100 jumping jacks. I go to the gym every day and do cardio and strength training, but geez. So I am more concerned about the warm up then I am the actual Kenpo training. Silly huh?

I am really looking forward to learning more and I don't plan on giving up. I guess I just need to relax and  enjoy it and focus on the task at hand. As someone said I need to get out of myself and stop focusing on my comfort level and focus on the skill I am learning.

Thanks for all the advice, I look forward to talking with you all more and sharing this journey with you.

Kerry


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## michaeledward (Feb 12, 2006)

Kerry,

First, welcome.

Second, as some said, relax. 

As you begin, please keep in mind that your are endeavoring this task for *personal* reasons. You do not need to keep up with the calesthenics of those studying for two, three, four or more years. You need to do what you are capable and comfortable doing; right now. Be the tortise, not the hare. 

The material will take some time to learn. That's OK. As a new student, you have very little, or no frame of reference, on which to apply this new information. That is what makes it difficult to remember. It is also why, when you are shown an attack, the defense is easier to remember; the two correlate. This is a difficult task for adult learners; to absorb and give meaning to something that is very new to them; outside their experience.

Just keep showing up, and you will begin to absorb, and give meaning to the material. 

And, to give you a couple of, hopefully, helpful tips. 

The moves you learned in your first class are called 'Basics'. A basic is a single move. Learning these basics well, will result in performing Kenpo well. Strong Basics equals Strong Techniques. Don't be afraid to ask for clarification, over and over again, until *you* comprehend what your teacher is saying. 

The Star Block Set is a series of blocks. It is generally practiced in a Training Horse Stance, which is designed for training from the waist. Perform this series of moves, first with your Right Hand, then with your Left Hand, and then some instructors have you do both hands together.

upward block
hammering inward block
extended outward block
downward block
rear elbow strike
push down
Good Luck and have fun. 

Mike


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## kroh (Feb 12, 2006)

Congratulations on the weight loss and good luck in your new endevor

Regards, 
Walt


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## Brother John (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> One thing I noticed during my first two lessons (which were free introductory lessons by the way) was that when the teacher explained to me what the block was intended to do, meaning he would show me the attack it would defend, then it stuck with me. I could relate it to an actual defensive mechanism as opposed to just a random movement made in the air. Kerry


*B I N G O !!!!!!!!!*​Things that are learned w/in a context are the things that you understand the best!!!!
Good point! Always try to learn a thing w/in it's proper context.... OR relate it to something similar that you already know!

and....CONGRATS, big-time, on your weight Loss!!!!!!!!! You really should be Proud of that! Good goin!

Your Brother
John
PS: Keep us updated on your journey!​


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## hemi (Feb 12, 2006)

Welcome, this place is great I have been given so much good advice and everyone is so nice and understanding. I also wanted to say congratulations on your weight loss. And welcome to Kenpo an art that will change your life. 

In reading your post you sounded exactly like me 10 months ago. My head was swirling with information overload. I was frustrated lost and wondering how I was going to make heads or tails out of all the information I was given. But dont give up that is normal, Kenpo is something best learned a little at a time. When I started I wanted to soak it all in and take the ball and run. My instructor stood up in front of the class and told us a story that he had been told early in his training. He said that we as students were like a sponge if you take a dry sponge and drop it in a cup of water and pull it out quickly most of the water will stay in the cup. He said Kenpo is like that he will show us a lot of info at first and most will not soak in. But over a little time we will pick up a little here then a little the next class until soon we have soaked up all of the info/water in the cup.  

So my best advice I can give is keep your chin up it gets easier. And for what it is worth I was very nervous about group class at first too, but now I just have a bunch of new friends.


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## evenflow1121 (Feb 12, 2006)

Its ok you are experiencing what everyone of us experienced at one point or another, its normal.  It will all fall into place, depending on what particular branch of American Kenpo you do, you may want to invest in a video library for reference, such as, Mohammed Tabatabai or Larry Tatum's series.  Best of luck in your training.


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2006)

Kerry,

It's not at all silly to be concerned or intimidated about the warmup!

Your belt is an easy way to communicate the expectation level that is expected of you.  You are a new student.  Your instructors do not have any expectations of you because they haven't even had a chance to see what your capabilities are.  Your instructors will be learning more about you as you learn more about Kenpo and the way they teach.  Right now, the only thing that is expected of you is that you show up with a good attitude, and see you try.  

When I started, I could do a couple of pushups in a row, max.  So, that's what I did.  If all you can do is pushups from the knee (less weight than pushups done with legs fully extended), then just do those.  

*Do the warmup at your own pace.* 

The warmups will vary. Some will be easier than others.  Some will be longer than others.  But do them at your own pace.  If you push your body too hard, it will rebel and leave you feeling terrible for a few days.  It may take weeks or it may take months to keep up with the class during warmup.  But progress with what works for your body.   

You do not sound like a person that is lazy or takes the easy way out.  Losing 150 pounds is an incredible accomplishment, and I'm sure it was nothing that was easy or quick.  Your instructors will see this spirit in you.  So will your classmates.  Believe me, no one will be counting the number of jumping jacks that you do, or wondering why you aren't doing a gazillion pushups in 3 seconds.  You participate to the vibe of the class by making the effort to do your best.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> I am a bit nervous about Tuesdays lesson. It will be my first with the whole class. After my introductory lessons I sat and watched the actual class and the other instructor who was teaching it really put these guys through their paces, and that was before they even did anything remotely related to Kenpo. I am talking about the warm up. It must have lasted a half an hour. He had them do 100 jumping Jacks, sit ups, push ups (3 different kinds), running in place etc. I was very intimidated. I am sure I will drop over dead just from the attempt of 100 jumping jacks. I go to the gym every day and do cardio and strength training, but geez. So I am more concerned about the warm up then I am the actual Kenpo training. Silly huh?
> 
> Kerry


 
Don't be afraid of the warmup.  Give it your all, and don't worry if you cannot do everything.  Keep with it, you will get stronger and eventually it will be no problem.  Everyone starts somewhere, and if the teachers and classmates are respectable, then they should show you the respect for simply giving it your best effort and not giving up.

Congratulations on your fitness accomplishments.  This is the kind of thing that should be an inspiration for many people.  I work in an office with a gentleman who recently lost probably 200 pounds on a physician supervised diet and exercise program.  I have seen firsthand the change in his life.  He is, literally, half the man he used to be.  It is unbelievable how this kind of thing can impact your life in many positive ways, from a health standpoint and an emotional standpoint.

Congratulations, and welcome to a new world.


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 12, 2006)

Everyone here has been so kind. That's one thing I noticed about the martial arts community in just a short time. From the moment I walked in the door of the school up to and including this message board, everyone has been very welcoming and there is a nice warm feeling of community amongst martial artists. It makes me feel good about becoming a part of this community.

My teacher is a very nice man and seems very knowledgable. The other fellows in the class seemed very nice as well. I didn't get the feeling they were looking at me wondering what this woman was doing there. 

I have been asked which style of American Kenpo the school teaches. I don't know this. The web site for the school is http://www.womaa1.com/skkii.html, maybe someone can tell me what style it is.

I feel so much better after reading all your replies. I now have more confidence going in there on Tuesday. 

Another question (or two). On Tuesday I get my uniform. The teacher also asked me if I wanted to order a Yellow Belt manual. It supposedly shows what is required to acquire a yellow belt. Is this something worth investing in, or is this information I can find anywhere? Also, in doing some of these moves during the first two classes I realized I am probably the most uncoordinated person on the face of the earth. I was ok when doing something with one hand, but when it came time to do two hands in repetition, I fumbled like a toddler. For example when I had to return one hand back to my side and continue to do something with the other hand, I kept facing the palm down or placing it in the wrong position. Like I couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time.  Will coordination come in time, or is there other training that can help me in this area? Any special exercises that help with this?

Kerry


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## michaeledward (Feb 12, 2006)

Yes, order the manual.

While much of what it contains is probably available on this site, there are variations taught all over the country. If you are going to work at that studio, you will need to know the way they execute the information. 

You could probably choose to keep a notebook on your own, and build your 'Yellow Belt Manual', and save the cost of the manual. 

It is often a difficult conversation to ask how much learning Kenpo costs. Is there a fee for testing? What is it? Is it the same fee for every belt level? Is there a cost for the technique manual? What is it? Is it the same for every belt level? Are these fees strictly to the studio, or do they also cover the cost of the Association? These costs can add up, especially above your normal monthly obligation. It is a delicate question and some schools don't like to publish answers. 

As for feeling un-coordinated; you are doing something that is completely new to you ... of course you will feel uncoordinated. Don't sweat it. Just go slow, trying your best, that is all anyone will expect. I have been studying for five years, and still have questions about Long Form 1. 

Kenpo is much like an onion, there is always another layer. Just keep working on the layer you are at now ... you will get to the deeper levels in time.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> I have been asked which style of American Kenpo the school teaches. I don't know this. The web site for the school is http://www.womaa1.com/skkii.html, maybe someone can tell me what style it is.
> 
> 
> Kerry


 

Well, what you're doing IS NOT American Kenpo, as much as they'd like to tell you it is, which BTW, is why I asked the question to begin with.   They are doing Paul Mills' interpretation of what he learned of American Kenpo.   The only material available for  you is only what the AKKI will/can provide, which is little.     They're a pretty secretive group and don't let their written or video material get out to the rest of the world for some reason.     Last time a manual went on sale on Ebay it went for a pretty steep price to keep it from getting out.

They're seems to be a lot of them on KenpoTalk.com, and they even have their own area there under Mr. Mills lineage category.    My suggestion is to address your questions at that particular group as most here won't be able to help you much with the curriculum you're studying.    You might also try www.akki.com as well.

DarK LorD


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2006)

It is not that you are uncoordinated, you are just unfamiliar with this particular way of applying it.  Touch-typing, playing ping-pong, dancing the foxtrot, or playing the violin all take coordination applied in a unique way...but this coordination is largely different than what is needed for Kenpo.

Sure, it will feel weird and your first few attempts will not be perfect.  But you will be given plenty of time to learn these moves and get them right.  You may be posting back in a few weeks saying that you are bored to death of star block set and are anxious to learn more 

Enjoy...and keep posting!

Carol


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## kroh (Feb 12, 2006)

As far as the manual goes...I alway found it more rewarding to type or write my own notes.  They contain my own version of shorthand and my own notes to make the movements easier for me to understand when I have to come back to them.  If you get the manual, scribble in it constantly as it will help you form an interpretation tailored to your needs.  After all...artis an expression of the self...right ?

Just make sure you ask a lot of questions and be a good little dooby.  A good instructor will answer all of your questions patiently while a great instructor will anticipate them before you ask.  Then again...if there is anything they can answer...surely some one on this site can.

Regards, 
Walt


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 12, 2006)

Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.

As far as costs, I didn't know there were charges for the belt testing. I will have to ask about that on Tuesday. The Yellow Belt manual is $18.00. There was a $45 initiation fee which covers my uniform and my enrollment in the American Kenpo Association or whatever that I get a card and a patch for. I pay $60.00 a month for the classes.

hmm..now I am curious as to what I am actually learning here.

Kerry


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## Doc (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.


Don't worry, you're learning Kenpo. The inquiry was made so you could be told you're not learning kenpo. Keep doing what you're doing and accept the advice from the positive people here. Ignor the negative and the ignorant, and focus on getting as much of the positive as you can from your teachers and from here. You'll be fine.

Welcome to MartialTalk.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 12, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> Don't worry, you're learning Kenpo. The inquiry was made so you could be told you're not learning kenpo. Keep doing what you're doing and accept the advice from the positive people here. Ignor the negative and the ignorant, and focus on getting as much of the positive as you can from your teachers and from here. You'll be fine.
> 
> Welcome to MartialTalk.


 
Sadly, my statements are the truth, but people really don't want to hear the truth do they, they want to be told how nice and pretty things are in their little portion of the  universe.   

DarK LorD


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## Flying Crane (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.
> 
> As far as costs, I didn't know there were charges for the belt testing. I will have to ask about that on Tuesday. The Yellow Belt manual is $18.00. There was a $45 initiation fee which covers my uniform and my enrollment in the American Kenpo Association or whatever that I get a card and a patch for. I pay $60.00 a month for the classes.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with Doc.  There are many different lineages of Kenpo, as many of Mr. Parker's students took what they learned and went in different directions with it, some of them splitting before Mr. Parker's death, others after.  Some made changes that they felt were appropriate, others try to stay as close as they can to what they learned from Mr. Parker.

Unfortunately, what you will see is that there can be disagreement between the different camps, but this does not mean that what you are doing is inferior or wrong.  Just different.  Some people get very hung up and territorial and obsessive over these differences.  Most of us realize that it is all great Ice Cream, just a different Flavor.

What really matters is that you have a skilled and knowledgeable teacher who can help you grow in your training.


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## michaeledward (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> As far as costs, I didn't know there were charges for the belt testing. I will have to ask about that on Tuesday. The Yellow Belt manual is $18.00. There was a $45 initiation fee which covers my uniform and my enrollment in the American Kenpo Association or whatever that I get a card and a patch for. I pay $60.00 a month for the classes.


 
Kerry, in my opinion, those fees are not unreasonable. 

At my studio, we do not pay for belt manuals. My monthly fees are a bit higher. Testing fees, as I recall, were 25 bucks for colored belts, 50 bucks for brown belts, and I think will be 100 bucks for black belts. 

I have heard stories (heresay evidence only) of schools that charge increasing fees for each belt test and manual. 

At this point, it sounds like your school is pretty reasonable. Enjoy. 

Mike


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## Doc (Feb 12, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I agree with Doc.  There are many different lineages of Kenpo, as many of Mr. Parker's students took what they learned and went in different directions with it, some of them splitting before Mr. Parker's death, others after.  Some made changes that they felt were appropriate, others try to stay as close as they can to what they learned from Mr. Parker.
> 
> Unfortunately, what you will see is that there can be disagreement between the different camps, but this does not mean that what you are doing is inferior or wrong.  Just different.  Some people get very hung up and territorial and obsessive over these differences.  Most of us realize that it is all great Ice Cream, just a different Flavor.
> 
> What really matters is that you have a skilled and knowledgeable teacher who can help you grow in your training.


I loves me some "Butter Peacan."  Flying Crane is absolutely right. MartialTalk is the best forum for any art on the web. Unfortunately we do have a sour puss or two from time to time and that's ok because when they surface, they stick out like an orangoutang on Jeopardy who can't even find the button to chime in.

Have faith in your teachers, but don't be afraid to ask questions, and use mature adult common sense. And most importantly, don't forget to have some fun while you're at it.


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 12, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> I loves me some "Butter Peacan."


 
I got a pint headed your way...


----------



## Doc (Feb 12, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> I got a pint headed your way...


Buddy, buddy!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.
> 
> As far as costs, I didn't know there were charges for the belt testing. I will have to ask about that on Tuesday. The Yellow Belt manual is $18.00. There was a $45 initiation fee which covers my uniform and my enrollment in the American Kenpo Association or whatever that I get a card and a patch for. I pay $60.00 a month for the classes.
> 
> ...


Welcome to Kenpo politics! I assure you that Mr. Mills is respected by most organizations. His focus is a bit different than some Kenpo systems, but his influance is felt widely. I believe that more training time is spent learning to control the distance than you might get in another random APAK system. 
Sean


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 12, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> I loves me some "Butter Peacan."  Flying Crane is absolutely right. MartialTalk is the best forum for any art on the web. Unfortunately we do have a sour puss or two from time to time and that's ok because when they surface, they stick out like an orangoutang on Jeopardy who can't even find the button to chime in.
> 
> Have faith in your teachers, but don't be afraid to ask questions, and use mature adult common sense. And most importantly, don't forget to have some fun while you're at it.


 
An ORANGOUTANG, is that a new flavor of Tang with the orange out?

Peacan= a can of peas?

I'm not a sour puss, I answered the questions she asked, truthfully, and non PC, because honesty is not a virtue, it's a curse.   

I do hope Budha Girl enjoys herself and her training, but at least she'll be informed of what she's doing before committing to contracts.


DarK LorD


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 12, 2006)

I'm glad to hear that the costs are fairly reasonable for Kenpo classes. At first I was concerned about paying so much per month since I already pay each month to have a gym membership, but you can't put a price on good health and education now can you?  I will be asking about the belt testing costs however. 

I can see that there are many opinions on the various styles of Kenpo or what is or isn't Kenpo. I respect everyone's opinion and those differences of opinion are what makes life interesting. I figure I will get out of this school what I am looking to get out of it. I want to get fit, be able to defend myself and learn some of the discipline that martial arts teaches. If I can do that then I am happy. Hopefully along the way everyone here will be able to offer advice and opinions even if my style is not their style. I'm looking forward to having enough knowledge to be able to take part in more conversations on here.

Kerry


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## Carol (Feb 12, 2006)

I don't know of any person that agrees with another person 100 percent of the time.  One does not always completely agree with one's spouse, or one's parents, or one's best friend.  Likewise in the Arts, there are practitioners that do not agree 100 percent of the time.

There certainly are politics in Kenpo as you can see.  The politics can be annoying...but they are simply a side effect of something magnificent:  the deeply entrenched passion, love, and dedication that many practitioners have for our art.

Your training is just that...yours.  You are the one making the investment, you are the one reaping the rewards.  We're just electrons on your screen that disappear when you log off


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 12, 2006)

Apparently I never log off 

Or at least it seems that way today. Being snowed in all day is a great excuse to spend your time glued to the computer reading about Kenpo.

I have learned a lot today and it's kept me from being hungry and wanting to devour a whole jar of peanut butter or something.

Kerry


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## Doc (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Apparently I never log off
> 
> Or at least it seems that way today. Being snowed in all day is a great excuse to spend your time glued to the computer reading about Kenpo.
> 
> ...


Skippy Super Crunch - yeah!


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## Brother John (Feb 12, 2006)

the AKKI teaches real American Kenpo Karate!!

I suggest you contact Mr. Paul Mills himself. He was a student of the late Senior Grandmaster Ed Parker Sr., the man who put "American Kenpo Karate" together from the ground up. When Mr. Parker was alive he put Mr. Mills in *several* areas of great responsibility w/in the art/association. After Mr. Parker died Mr. Mills was placed in charge of things in Mr. Parker's stead!!  Later, due to several reasons that I don't have the time nor space here to type out, Mr. Mills formed a new association.....the American Kenpo Karate International. One of the biggest and strongest Kenpo Karate associations around.

Like I said, I HIGHLY recomend you contact Mr. Mills and ask him ANYTHING you want......Anything. He's a great guy and loves to give information to anyone who's willing to just ask. His E-mail is
PaulMills@AKKI.com
His PHONE NUMBER (not a school's, not an answering machine ...._unless he's not there_...but *HIS* number) is 1 -                 (307) 789-4124. 
OR you can reach him by postal service at 
                 PO BOX 768
                Evanston, WY 82931

No matter what you do, IF you really want to know and understand what it is you'd be learning at Mr. Smith's school..
or if you want some info on Mr. Smith from a person who knows him well....contact Mr. Smith's instructor.........Mr. Mills.
I can 100% guarantee you that Mr. Mills would love a call like this and is Great about answering questions from anyone.....Multi-stripe Kenpoists or a young lady white-belt such as yourself.
PLEASE: When you do contact him, let him know that your "Brother John" sentcha!!!
He'd get a kick out of that!!!!!

Your Brother
John


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## arnisador (Feb 12, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo?



You're learning American Kenpo there, and Kenpo politics here.

Everything is fine. Keep on keepin' on!


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## Flying Crane (Feb 12, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You're learning American Kenpo there, and Kenpo politics here.
> 
> Everything is fine. Keep on keepin' on!


 
heh, heh.  True.  Too bad, but true.


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Uh-oh, I'm not learning American Kenpo? Figures I would join some secret freaky sect. Actually I live in a small town area and when I looked up Martial arts studios there were only a couple of them. One of them is more geared towards kids and afterschool programs. It is held in a former roller skating arena and they also have skating there. So I kind of felt they were less "serious" about the art. I emailed the owner/teacher of this school and he came across more professional and answered my questions more clearly. I was impressed with his answers so I decided to go with them.


 
Kerry, 

Don't get discouraged.  As its been said, there are many versions of the art out there.  Its all Kenpo, just a different branch on the tree.  If this is what you're happy with, then keep on goin'!!!  Bro John is part of the AKKI, so he should be able to help you out with any questions you may have.  

Mike


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> You're learning American Kenpo there, and Kenpo politics here.
> 
> Everything is fine. Keep on keepin' on!


 
No,  the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer.    Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it.   Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.

Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.    

They'll probably boot me off the forum for telling you the truth but I'm used to it.

DarK LorD


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## Brother John (Feb 13, 2006)

Basically Kerry, this is an issue that you'll need to investigate deeply on your own. Clyde is heavily biased, _but so am I_. I'll tell you that he is partially true....but........in MY opinion, very much incorrect in his conclusion. There are many changed/altered sets, forms and techniques as well as the inclusion of things that weren't in the parent system that the AKKI derives it's American Kenpo Karate from. It is Not identical to the system that it came from, there's no denying that. There are differences between them that makes the AKKI way of doing things Very distinctive. Wether or not that makes it "Not American Kenpo" as Clyde (Dark Kenpo Lord) is eager to assert, depends a *great deal* on the perspective and biases of the person you ask. My own thoughts on this are that you should get it from the horses mouth! ((Please don't let Mr. Mills know I called him a horse.....hahaha....)) Talk to Mr. Smith or Contact Mr. Mills, tell them about Clyde's opinion and assertion, and ask them what makes the American Kenpo Karate that the AKKI puts out "*American Kenpo Karate*", I believe that their answer will be very enlightening and no doubt put confidence in your choice to sign up and DIG INTO the good work going on at Mr. Smith's school. 
Please give Mr. Smith my regards.

Your Brother
John


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## kroh (Feb 13, 2006)

This is all really a non-issue as this very nice, brand spanking new kenshi, came onto this forum asking advice (which the beginning of the post was very helpfull) and almost made it out on a high note.  At the end (or what should have been the end) she got a fist full of politics.

Kerry,You will see that there are a lot of posturing and politics that go on in the kempo/kenpo circles.  Take the advice of the sempai (seniors) here on the boards and ignore it.  While the point Dark Kenpo Lord makes about knowing your lineage is correct, don't get mired in the political garbage that many would sling around.  

We all practice martial arts for different reasons.  No one is going to care what kind of Kung Foolery we practice when they are trying to take our money, liberty, or life.  Train hard and be certain that the art that you train in meets all of your needs for that activity.  Although lineage is important to establish where your art is derived from so it can be put into context, politics should be better left to people who are more capable and willing to argue them.  

Please keep us informed as to how your training is going .  

Regards, 
Walt


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 13, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No, the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer. Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it. Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.
> 
> Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.
> 
> ...


I'll conceed that she may not be able to just pick up where she left off if she moved and found an LTKK school.
Sean


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## Flying Crane (Feb 13, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> No, the AKKI material IS NOT, I repeat, IS NOT American Kenpo, it's been altered in every way, forms, sets, techs., and for anyone to claim otherwise would be a misnomer. Yes, Mr. Mills did do American Kenpo at one time, he then tailored it to his specs. and began teaching HIS version of it. Why they haven't changed the name to Paul Mills Kenpo is beyond me.
> 
> Buddha girl, I'm not posting this to scare you away from your current activities, but you should be informed of what you're partaking in and paying money for, bottom line.
> 
> ...


 
Hmm... Well, as we all know, Mr. Parker was constantly changing what he taught.  Different people claim to have remained true to Mr. Parker's teaching, but what they teach is completely different from each other.  Why is this?   This is because they trained with Mr. Parker at different times in Mr. Parker's life, and what Mr. Parker was teaching at these different times was different.  Mr. Parker understood that Kenpo is a living art that will, and should, continue to change.  Mr. Parker is no longer with us to make these changes.  It is appropriate that the next generations make changes as they see fit. 

I never knew Mr. Parker so I cannot speak for him, but I suspect he would be disappointed in anyone who felt the art should only be done one way and never changed.  I also suspect that he would be disappointed in the snittyness that gets displayed by some in the kenpo community.

Grow up.


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## Doc (Feb 13, 2006)

Here'a repost from kenpoTalk:

Don't want to bust any bubbles, but have you noticed that all of the recent seniors are different in technique understanding? Have you noticed (probably not), that the ancients like myself, and a Steve LaBounty that came waay before Tatum, (whose student on this thread has decided Tatum's way is the only Kenpo, even though Tatum doesn't say that) Trejo, Planas, etc existed, are also 'different.' There is a very good reason for this. Mr. Parker put forth more than one philosophy over his lifetime, and some of them evolved concurrently with each other, while others he dropped altogether. 

Therefore, Parker himself didn't do things the same all the time, with everybody over his lifetime. So if you dropped into a Chinese kenpo School run by Frank Trejo's former instructor, Steve Hearring, in Pasadena and didn't recognize anything, does that invalidate Mr. Hearring being one of Parker's Black Belts and managing the Pasadena School in the sixties? He will tell you he's teaching Ed Parker's Kenpo as he learned it. How about Chuck Sullivan, (another ancient) who also teaches Kenpo in the Ed Parker Lineage as he understands it. Or Dave German, or James Ibrao, and how about Joe Dimmick or Dan Inosanto, along with Jim Grumwald, and add Me to the list.

More recently (late 60's forward), the business model of Kenpo based on abstract 'motion' became the dominant understanding. However, that business model is built on, and depends upon individual flexibility, and instructor interpretations to exist. THERE HAS NEVER EVER BEEN ONE WAY TO DO ANY OF THE TECHNIQUES FROM THE BUSINESS MODEL. MR. PARKER NEVER EVER TAUGHT ANYONE A DEFINITIVE WAY TO DO OR TEACH ANY TECHNIQUE FROM THAT MODEL.

Mr. Parker produced a business guide (nicknamed the "The Red Book"), that included techniques, forms, sets, and BUSINESS PRACTICES for running a school for the head instructor. The guide was based on the Arthur Murray Dance Studios Business Plan. The Dance Studio chain taught a basic idea of 'dances,' and of course allowed students and teachers to interpret and express themselves through these dances. Like the Dance Studio, (this is where the studio term comes from), this was only a GUIDE for the business franchise owner. 

For the business of kenpo, Mr. Parker taught concepts that he felt COULD be utilized in various technique scenarios, presented in the WEB OF KNOWLEDGE. The W.O.K. issured instructors and students had to address various attacks (particular dances), the written techniques that were starting point IDEAS (for teaching), and the written forms and sets that added additional structure. 

I was there, and no one was the same when he was alive, so why would you think it would be different now? Students, black belts, and school owners came and went all the time, all taking or bringing whatever their interpretations were with them. Every 'teacher' has always been allowed, and encouraged to develop their own curriculum. Every teacher and student has always been encouraged to, 'tailor, rearrange, graft, insert, delete, prefix, suffix, and add WHATEVER they felt was necessary to insure business success and on the street success. This INCLUDED bringing information from other styles as long as you felt it worked. Parker would send students to other schools to see what they were doing. "If you see something good, bring it back." he would say.

I sat in the back of a seminar with the Old Man while Parker went over several techniques with the group. A couple of green belts were having problems with the understanding Mr. Parker presented. One whispered to the other, "Mr. Parker is teaching the technique wrong."

My point is, what made the business of Kenpo different from traditional arts is, ALL involved were given COMPLETE flexibility to make anything and everything FUNCTIONAL FOR THEMSELVES utilizing Parker's 'ideas' and basic structure. Mr. Parker gave them concepts, with principles of kenpo, and a written guide to use until he saw them again, to teach additional concepts. 

It is this flexibility that allowed the 'business' of Kenpo to proliferate, and without it, we probably would not have this discussion. You can't have it both ways. That flexibility has allowed all to exist somewhere in the Parker Kenpo Lineage paradigm without anyone ever being 'wrong.' In Mr. Parker's vision for kenpo, the only 'wrong' is when you did something that wouldn't work for you on the street, and you got hurt. Other than that, it really didn't matter as far as he was concerened. 

The key element for a business based on acquiring "self defense skills," is that students believed in what they were taught and that it was fuctional and worked for them. If you were attacked and you survived, then it did its job. When you take a class in self defense and you get attacked, no one will say, "Did you do the technique correctly? Or did you screw up Five Swords?" They ask what did you do to be successful, and whatever it was, and whatever you call it, they say "Cool!"

If you could pass a federal law today that everyone in the Parker Lineage had to do everything the same, everyone would change the name of their art, and keep doing what they're doing. 

"Although there are differences and most have a preference for what they are doing, none of the ranking students of Ed Parker I know of have suggested someone else's flavor isn't Kenpo. On these forums we mostly have good discussions and friendly debate and even agree to disagree. But there are neanderthal mentally suspect trolls who contribute nothing but discourse, and stand by waiting to bring a negative so they can get attention. Every now and then you'll get a chimp beating on his chest saying, 'look at me, I'm a gorilla.' My Grandmother used to always say, "Just remember, one monkey doesn't stop the show."

I'll close with a Parker Story.

A young man comes into the school and begins questioning Parker about different scenarios of defense. 'What if a guy throws a punch?' Mr. Parker would answer. 'Well what if he kicks?' Mr. Parker would answer. This went on for a while with the young man conjuring up attacking scenario after scenario attempting to stump Parker for an answer. 

Finally in frustration the young man thought for a second, and finally said, "Well Mr. Parker what would you do if it was 3 o'clock in the morning, and you were in a dark alley in a bad part of town, and a guy jumped out and attacked you with a trash can?

Mr. Parker broke into side splitting laughter while the young man had a puzzled look on his face. "What's so funny?" He said. Mr. Parker in his classic demonstrable style, walked over to the guy with a big grin on his face. When he got close to him he leaned forward and immediately stopped smiling and put a scowl on his face. "You don't get it kid. I would be the one with the trash can. Get it?" The young man said, "Yes sir!" and left abruptly with Parker continuing to frown and turn his back. After a moment Parker said quietly, still frowning, "Is he gone?" I said, "yeah he split." Silence for a moment, and the we both burst into laughter. "Man that dude really took off, but I think he understands now." Parker said.

Do you understand? 
__________________


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2006)

IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best.  Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff.  If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says.  Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else.  As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.


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## Doc (Feb 13, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best.  Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff.  If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says.  Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else.  As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.


Amen Mike.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 13, 2006)

MJS said:
			
		

> IMO, what everyone should be looking at, is what is going to suit them the best. Kerry, you came here, asking for advice, and its apparent that you're getting hit with a bunch of stuff. If you're happy with what you're doing, I certainly would not worry about what someone else says. Its you that is going to be training in it, not anyone else. As long as you're happy with what you're doing, then keep doing it.


 
Hear hear!


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## hongkongfooey (Feb 13, 2006)

Kerry, 

Keep at it and don't let the politics get you down. Clyde is of the opinion that if Larry Tatum didn't or doesn't teach it, then it's not Kenpo.  Not to slight Mr. Tatum, but his way is not the only way.  If you feel that what you are learning has merit and you enjoy it, then go with it.

HKF


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

hongkongfooey said:
			
		

> Kerry,
> 
> Keep at it and don't let the politics get you down. Clyde is of the opinion that if Larry Tatum didn't or doesn't teach it, then it's not Kenpo. Not to slight Mr. Tatum, but his way is not the only way. If you feel that what you are learning has merit and you enjoy it, then go with it.
> 
> HKF


 
Hmm, on your profile it says you're an American Kenpo BEGINNER, and all the sudden you have the answers to Kenpo I suppose?

Buddha Girl asked a question, I responded that we didn't have enough information to ascertain any level of helpfulness.     Once the information was received, I then pointed her in the direction in which to satisfy her curiosity in the appropriate place, where her questions would be answered by others training in what she's doing; and you guys bring this on me?    What a sad bunch of people you are.

Proves my point, people aren't happy unless they're being lied to, and told how everything will just be alright no matter what in their Happy PC Utopia land.

Life is great, you get a free trip around the sun every year.


DarK LorD


----------



## Flying Crane (Feb 13, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> Buddha Girl asked a question, I responded that we didn't have enough information to ascertain any level of helpfulness. Once the information was received, I then pointed her in the direction in which to satisfy her curiosity in the appropriate place, where her questions would be answered by others training in what she's doing; and you guys bring this on me? What a sad bunch of people you are.
> 
> DarK LorD


 
What you state is a half-truth.  Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.

I don't know anything first hand about Mr. Mills or his organization so I am certainly in no position to act as their Champion here on Martialtalk.  But what you stated in your previous posts is inflammatory and inappropriate, especially when you are telling this to a complete beginner to the martial arts.  BuddhaGirl is a complete novice, new to the arts and kenpo, with all of two lessons under her belt.  She has expressed a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for her training, as well as confiding to the Forum Community some pretty personal issues surrounding her weight.  And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful.  Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person.  You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk.  You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with.  This is your choice.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Hmm... Well, as we all know, Mr. Parker was constantly changing what he taught. Different people claim to have remained true to Mr. Parker's teaching, but what they teach is completely different from each other. Why is this? This is because they trained with Mr. Parker at different times in Mr. Parker's life, and what Mr. Parker was teaching at these different times was different. Mr. Parker understood that Kenpo is a living art that will, and should, continue to change. Mr. Parker is no longer with us to make these changes. It is appropriate that the next generations make changes as they see fit.
> 
> I never knew Mr. Parker so I cannot speak for him, but I suspect he would be disappointed in anyone who felt the art should only be done one way and never changed. I also suspect that he would be disappointed in the snittyness that gets displayed by some in the kenpo community.
> 
> Grow up.


 
You've never met Mr. Parker, and you say you cannot speak for him, so why do you?     

Change, like a car right?   Seems they're bringing back a bit of retro in the Mustang and the Camaro these days, wonder why, cuz they had the right idea then and too much CHANGE didn't sell now.   People don't like change just to change things, only if it's an improvement.    I haven't seen improvement from any of the offshoots of EPAK yet.    And I'm always surprised to find out just how much people are willing to pay for those original Camaros and Mustangs. 


DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> What you state is a half-truth. Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.
> 
> I don't know anything first hand about Mr. Mills or his organization so I am certainly in no position to act as their Champion here on Martialtalk. But what you stated in your previous posts is inflammatory and inappropriate, especially when you are telling this to a complete beginner to the martial arts. BuddhaGirl is a complete novice, new to the arts and kenpo, with all of two lessons under her belt. She has expressed a tremendous amount of enthusiasm for her training, as well as confiding to the Forum Community some pretty personal issues surrounding her weight. And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful. Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person. You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk. You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with. This is your choice.


 
You show me exact text where I belittle, demeaned, insulted, or any other negative post to the school or assoc.  in this thread.     Half truth, it's the whole truth, and I could care less if I alienate the forum populace.     I posted in a respectful way, just because YOU don't see it that way, now I'm the bad guy?????

Buddha Girl deserves to know what she's getting into, I didn't write her and ask her to post on this forum, she found it all by herself.    Now she's an informed consumer because she did her own research, got differing opinions, and can now make an informed assessment of her choices.

Oh yea, nice of you to bring up the weight issue!!!



DarK LorD


----------



## Lisa (Feb 13, 2006)

Mod. Note. 
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-LISA DENEKA
-MT Moderator-


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## Flying Crane (Feb 13, 2006)

Dark Kenpo Lord said:
			
		

> You show me exact text where I belittle, demeaned, insulted, or any other negative post to the school or assoc. in this thread. Half truth, it's the whole truth, and I could care less if I alienate the forum populace. I posted in a respectful way, just because YOU don't see it that way, now I'm the bad guy?????
> 
> DarK LorD


 
Well, I am haven't figured out how to bring in quotes from several past posts into a new post, so I'll give you some references.

Your post, #21, the hostility is pretty evident:  "The only material available for you is only what the AKKI will/can provide, which is little."

Your post #32, more sarcasm, your reference to committing to contracts, implying that the school is a McDojo and will simply take her money and give nothing in return.

Your post #42, the whole first paragraph is very sarcastic.

If you honestly don't feel that you delivered any hostility or sarcasm with these posts, and if I am in truth misunderstanding what you have said, then you have my apology.  I know that sometimes things get misunderstood on the internet, but these postings look very hostile and sarcastic to me.  You might feel that you are simply being honest, but it really really comes across looking hostile and sarcastic and disrespectful.  This is my point.  You might want to reexamine how you state things, especially when you are in disagreement.

You may not care if you alienate the populace on Martialtalk, but your reputation will carry beyond the internet here into real life.  People form opinions based on how others present themselves.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> What you state is a half-truth. Yes, you pointed her in a direction that might give her some more information, but you did so after belittling the school in which she has chosen to train.
> 
> . And your postings do little but plant doubts and cause her to question what she is doing, and this is a huge example of tremendously poor manners, and is really shameful. Your postings are arrogant, closed-minded and judgemental and reflect poorly on you as a person. You can choose to reflect on your approach and find a way to contribute to the discussions in a respectful way even when in disagreement, or I suggest you will end up alienating most people here on Martialtalk. You may not care if this happens, but it's your reputation that you will have to live with. This is your choice.


 
Talk to your supporting members about this then.

DarK LorD


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Feb 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Well, I am haven't figured out how to bring in quotes from several past posts into a new post, so I'll give you some references.
> 
> Your post, #21, the hostility is pretty evident: "The only material available for you is only what the AKKI will/can provide, which is little."
> 
> ...


 
   If it looks hostile and sarcastic, then that's your perception of it, not the intent, it's simply the truth, with no sugar coating.     Like I said, people love to be lied to, and you obviously have other issues that made you perceive it the way you have.    Most schools require a long term contract, and before spending your hard earned money, it's best to know what those fees coming from your pocket will get you, hence, the reference to the contract, nothing more, nothing less, yet your perception is biased to your own demons in that regard.

Oh yea, why do I need to reexamine the way I write, to please you?

DarK LorD


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 13, 2006)

I have enjoyed reading everyones posts, and I understand that you all are very dedicated and passionate about the art (regardless which style you follow). If I have gotten anything from this thread it is that Kenpo and martial arts in general is something that brings out that passion in people and so it is definately something I want to be a part of. 

I have read over these messages several times and I have learned so much in just a few short days. So keep the spirited (yet respectful) discourse coming. I'm a big girl, I can handle a few rough words  And I will take from your comments what I can and use it to become a more informed member of the martial arts community. I may never attain the knowledge level of most of you here, but I will enjoy the journey and my body will benefit. That's what I am hoping to get from this. And maybe some day I will have the opportunity to kick some of your butts (in a controlled and safe environment) in my American Kenpo/Non-American Kenpo style. 

Kerry


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## Doc (Feb 13, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> You may not care if you alienate the populace on Martialtalk, but your reputation will carry beyond the internet here into real life.  People form opinions based on how others present themselves.


You are truly wasting your keystrokes.  But consider the longer we go on the more some reveal who they are. It would really be best to go back on topic. Some when they don't have a real cogent argument, attack people personally and this thread bares that out.

The strongest element there is about most kenpo is it's diversity that was promoted and encouraged by Ed Parker. Its practitioners speak volumes about alphabetical and numerical rearranging, inserts, deletions, prefixes, suffixes, grafting, and tailoring and changing everything to suit the individual instructors and students. They celebrate this diversity as the cornerstone of what they do to justify their non-traditional approach. Then someone has the nerve to say if you don't do it the way I and my teacher do it, then it isn't kenpo. The height of egotistical arrogant ignorance. Just beat on your chest with nothing positive to bring to a discussion, and howl at the moon. Use your Ignor button.


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 13, 2006)

I know thi thread has taken a few turns in its course can we get back to the original point of the thread please


> So I guess what I am asking here (in a round-about way) is where can I find something that will describe how to do the basic moves so as I learn then quickly during the course of the class, I will be able to come home and really learn them. In searching I find a lot of information on forms and detailed descriptions of belt requirements, but the very basics are no where to be found.
> 
> The punches and blocks I was taught are as follows:
> 
> Straight Thrust Punch, Straight snap punch, vertical thrust punch, vertical snap punch, hammer inward block, vertical outward block, extended outward block, inside downward block (palm up), outside downward block, inside downward block (palm down), pushdown.


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## Pacificshore (Feb 13, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> I have enjoyed reading everyones posts, and I understand that you all are very dedicated and passionate about the art (regardless which style you follow). If I have gotten anything from this thread it is that Kenpo and martial arts in general is something that brings out that passion in people and so it is definately something I want to be a part of.
> 
> I have read over these messages several times and I have learned so much in just a few short days. So keep the spirited (yet respectful) discourse coming. I'm a big girl, I can handle a few rough words  And I will take from your comments what I can and use it to become a more informed member of the martial arts community. I may never attain the knowledge level of most of you here, but I will enjoy the journey and my body will benefit. That's what I am hoping to get from this. And maybe some day I will have the opportunity to kick some of your butts (in a controlled and safe environment) in my American Kenpo/Non-American Kenpo style.
> 
> Kerry


Hi Kerry for the 100th time...Welcome to the forum .....boy, I'm so glad you can think for yourself when it comes to you and your new found journey into the world of Kenpo


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 13, 2006)

Ok so tommorow is the dreaded class #3 in which I will be with the big boys. I have been practicing my jumping jacks..up to 70 before I wimp out. I am going in with added confidence thanks to all of you.

So can someone remind me what is the the vertical outward block and the extended outward block. These are the only two I think I am "blocked" on


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## tshadowchaser (Feb 13, 2006)

cant help you there  it has been to long sence i was in kenpo  but i would like to suggest that after every class take the time to write down what you learned ( or can remmber) . make a note book of your expernce in the art, One it is a good refrence and 2 it will be great to look back on in years to come
oh and by the way a belated welcome to martialtalk


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## kroh (Feb 13, 2006)

Good luck in Class number Three.  Let us know how it goes!

The really cool thing here is that alot of use feel that same enthusiasm when a person gets into this stuff for the first time.  Kerry, It is really cool to see you going for the next class.  The more you post on the subject the more we can live vicariously through you endevors opcorn: .  

If there is anything else we can do...don't be affraid to shout out...
Regards,
Walt


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## Flying Crane (Feb 14, 2006)

Doc said:
			
		

> It would really be best to go back on topic.


 
Yeah, I know, sorry for my part in letting this get so off topic.  My sanity has returned and I'm ready to move on. 

Kerry, you have a great attitude.  You'll do fine.


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## dianhsuhe (Feb 14, 2006)

Kerry-  So? How'd it go??

James


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## Pacificshore (Feb 14, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> So can someone remind me what is the the vertical outward block and the extended outward block. These are the only two I think I am "blocked" on


By now you would have had your 3rd class 
In any case, maybe you can tell me if this is right...vertical outward block is blocking to the outside of your body with the palm side of your hand facing you, and the extended would be with the palm of your hand facing away from you?? Does that sound right?


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 14, 2006)

Actually my third class is tonight at 6:30pm. I go every Tuesday and Thursday evening. But I will definately post and let you know how it goes.

I talked with a girl this morning who works at my gym and she has done Kenpo in the past and she recommended the book "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo" by Ed Parker. I believe someone else recommended this book to me as well. I may look into ordering it.


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## MJS (Feb 14, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Actually my third class is tonight at 6:30pm. I go every Tuesday and Thursday evening. But I will definately post and let you know how it goes.


 
Yes, please let us know how it goes!:ultracool 



> I talked with a girl this morning who works at my gym and she has done Kenpo in the past and she recommended the book "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo" by Ed Parker. I believe someone else recommended this book to me as well. I may look into ordering it.


 
If you have the chance to pick up these books, I highly reccommend it!!  There is a series of 5 books, all of which are very interesting to read.  

Mike


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## pete (Feb 14, 2006)

the _Infinite Insights_ series (5 volumes) correlates more to the System of American Kenpo that Clyde (Dark Kenpo Lord) teaches and attempted to contrast here to what others may be doing.   

I am not sure to what extent they will help a beginner in the AKKI kenpo you have started.  Maybe one of the AKKI instructors (like Brother John) could give his opinion, or better yet ask your instructor what he thinks. I know zero of AKKI kenpo, but do know the Infinite Insights books are a bit of an investment!

I know firsthand, however, that they didn't help at all when I first read them, since the kenpo i was being taught was not the system as presented in the books. The books and the *System* as a whole makes a lot more sense to me now that I've been taught how the pieces fit together and the students Insights into the material is truly Infinite!.

pete


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## Brother John (Feb 14, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Actually my third class is tonight at 6:30pm. I go every Tuesday and Thursday evening. But I will definately post and let you know how it goes.
> 
> I talked with a girl this morning who works at my gym and she has done Kenpo in the past and she recommended the book "Infinite Insights Into Kenpo" by Ed Parker. I believe someone else recommended this book to me as well. I may look into ordering it.


 
Yes!! That's a 5 book series. HUNT well for it, they're sometimes difficult to find, and even harder to find at a good price.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Feb 14, 2006)

pete said:
			
		

> I am not sure to what extent they will help a beginner in the AKKI kenpo you have started. Maybe one of the AKKI instructors *(like Brother John)* could give his opinion, or better yet ask your instructor what he thinks. I know zero of AKKI kenpo, but do know the Infinite Insights books are a bit of an investment!
> 
> pete


 
Good call Pete, thanks for taggin me! 

Mind you though the great majority of my time in being a Kenpo Karate student has been through the curriculum of the AKKI, it's not the only American Kenpo that I've been taught or have studied. Though I am extremely proud to have come from such a fine group, I love and appreciate _ALL_ of the Kenpo that came from or was influenced by the mind of Ed Parker Sr.! So maybe I can give some decent perspective here.

If a person has only studied the curriculum as presented "by the book" through the AKKI, the Infinite Insights books.... I think, can have *every bit as much impact and benefit* for the AKKI student as someone studying what I'd call the "EPAK" system, the base system by Mr. Parker as laid for his association in the last years of his life. _Every bit as much_. 

The AKKI has many things w/in it's curriculum that is now distinctive of the AKKI, not existing in the parent system that it came from. But one of the benefits that comes from studying the Infinite Insights books is gaining an understanding and appreciation for how and why Mr. Parker set things up the way he did in his system... how things were catagorized and prioritized. When you gain some insight on how & why he did this, and then compare it to how and why Mr. Mills has made many of the changes and innovations that he has... it's easy to see why the New system retains the name "American Kenpo Karate" in full. (though others would disagree, I can only speak for my own opinion) Through getting a feel for what Mr. Parker did and why, I think an AKKI student can get the same feel for those very rational and logical conclusions that seem to have driven Mr. Mills to change what's been changed and retain what's been retained. *((I think it's a commonly held misunderstanding that these changes have made the two systems, the "EPAK" parent system and the AKKI offspring system, extremely dis-similar.... having had two different AKKI instuctors who first had gotten their Black Belts in the EPAK standard system befor becoming students of Mr. Mills....and then from having had two students of my own who'd come up through the EPAK system before coming to learn from myself....and then through having studied a both myself...I can tell you that the similarities and the commonalities are profound. There are distinctive differences....but they are BOTH "American Kenpo Karate", and like a father and his son, bare some striking resembelances....   pun intended))*

Also: Mr. Mills holds the memory of his insturctor Very Very dear. It's a moving thing to hear him talk of the many lessons (Kenpo and non-Kenpo) that Mr. Parker shared with Mr. Mills  over their years together and the impact/influence it had on him. Though Mr. Mills could easily feed his ego by trying to take FULL credit for singlehandedly creating the changes that make the AKKI unique, he often points out to people something to the effect of "This is the type of motion and innovation that my instructor was moving me toward all along, and I owe it to him for sharing it with me." ((_not a direct quote, but the sentiment of things I have heard him say_))  SO....in studying these books that Mr. Parker put out there for Kenpo students to gain "infinite insights into Kenpo", you gain an appreciation for where he was coming from...and thus have a better sense of where Mr. Mills is going.

BUT: One of the BIGGEST things that I find a great deal of value in concerning these books, is to give the student a good visual aid in detailing the BASICS!! Making things clear as far as angle and versatility of the foundational movements of American Kenpo. A Good inward block for an EPAK student...is after all...a Good inward block for an AKKI student!!

Also: aquiring knowledge of the terminology, principles and concepts that Mr. Parker peppered throughout the "Infinite Insights" books will undoubtedly assist the AKKI student in learning not just the "how" of Kenpo, but the "WHY".   *(In my mind, it's the WHY that drives Kenpo...and the how is the method through which you carry it out. I think that it's the "WHY" that determines if something really is "American Kenpo Karate" or not, and that the how is secondary or at least dependant on it. The "How" in the AKKI is different, no doubt. But the why? It's still in there, Strong and Healthy!!...and the "how" fits it well.)*

SO..... do I think you should aquire and use these books, being an AKKI student? 
Yes!!!!!!!!
I think if you study Any system that draws from the brainchild of Mr. Parker...you'd be remiss not too.

Enjoy!!!   (and keep us informed as to how class goes tonight, I'm root'n for you!)

Your Brother
John

PS: Also....the AKKI Belt Manuals....which shouldn't be considered anything more than a reference resource to the student.... are Excellent! I see them as indespensable to the AKKI Kenpo student.
There are other publications out there with Good Kenpo knowledge in them, I recomend starting a library. BUT: Never neglect the Best written material on Kenpo EVER.....
Your own class notes, personal insights and ideas. Keep a journal of your journey. You'll be glad you did!


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## pete (Feb 14, 2006)

hey brother john, glad you tuned in... 

since you had prior training in the EPAK *System, *it may have made more sense to you and your later AKKI Kenpo training.  

I look at it from a beginning in a hybrid curriculum, where i questioned: why am i not learning this, or doing this technique the same way... i also didn't follow the logical progression of the concepts as *Systemized *through the nature of the curriculum. This all makes sense to me now as i learn the system, put the pieces together, and see how it ties together.

Again, the II books can raise some questions in one's training, if the student is not familiar with the *System.  *And may(?) confuse a student who may be learning a similar Style through a different System.  The AKKI publications may be more consistent with the instruction she is receiving NOW (i think she's only been to 2-3 classes!), and maybe the time to add contrast would be after a few months.  i don't know for sure, but that would be what i'd do.

Also, seeing as she trains in Maryland, there are 2 big events being planned for Baltimore later this year:  

In August: Lee Epperson is hosting the LTKKA East Coast Camp with Larry Tatum and scores of other great instructors http://ltatum.com

In October: Joe Palanzo is hosting the annual WKKA Camp which he and his instructors have been doing a great job for over 20 years. http://www.wkka.org

Best way to know what you are doing is to get out and see what others are doing...

pete


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## Brother John (Feb 14, 2006)

Actually, my exposure to EPAK only came in a here and there smattering before I was an AKKI student. The great majority of it came after I'd been in the AKKI. So the mind I took to the books was the mind of an AKKI beginner, though I'd owned 1-5 for 10 years before becoming an AKKI student.
See I've been a martial artist since I was very young, about 22 years Active now... not that much by some standards, but I've been at it for a while. In the town I grew up in there was no Kenpo instruction to be had. I attended a school that was a hybrid between Tae Kwan Do Moo Duk Kwan and GoJu Ryu Karate-Do. BUT: The instructor became good friends with a man named "Jack Farr". Mr. Farr had been a student of Mr. Parker. Mr. Farr made several trips to our school at the behest of the three instructors there....we paid him for several seminars. In the late 80's we went with him to two of Ed Parker's seminar.....and they blew me away. I loved what little Kenpo Mr. Farr was sharing with us and helping to integrate into our school's curriculum, but when I went to Mr. Parker's seminars.....WOW!! I was in Love with American Kenpo!!! So I bought the books.
YEARS later I found an American Kenpo Karate instructor.....so I moved to my family to live near him. His name is Roger W. Taylor and he's a student of Mr. Mills. 
So when I came to the AKKI I'd already had a GOOD exposure to EPAK, but not really that much of an education in it. But I'd been digesting the books (including the Encycolpedia of American Kenpo, also by Ed Parker) for almost a decade. There wasn't that much of an adjustment at all to the ideology, terminology and methods of AKKI Kenpo..... it made good sense to me because it was So VERY similar to what I'd come to know and love from these 6 (now well worn) books. The logical progression of the concepts as presented through the curriculum of the AKKI was/is very much in keeping with the underlying reasons and rationale put forward in these books. 
Later I'd come to have more of an "education" in EPAK, which I appreciate very much!! But I still prefer, by my opinion and tastes, what I'd gained through the AKKI... a great deal more.

I really do not believe that reading these books would confuse a first week white-belt in the AKKI. I think they'd do nothing but reenforce the lesons being given.

I do agree that it's good to appreciate and understand what other groups are doing, but one must do their best to deal with what's already on their plate before digging into Other meals. Those groups you listed are all fine organizations with many good people in them.
So is the AKKI.

Have a great day!

Your Brother
John


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 14, 2006)

Well I did it, I survived my third lesson (my first official one with the whole class). I think the teacher kind of took it easy on us in the warm up for my benefit, but it was still a good workout, I sweat, and huffed and puffed, it felt good.

Then the teacher went over the basics (again for my benefit, and to refresh the guys). I learned some new moves and when the more advanced students went to work on their things, he took me aside and taught me the intro to Form 1. 

I did what some of you recommended and took a little notepad and took some notes at the end. I had him tell me the names of some of the moves I did and I wrote them down along with how to do them.

I really enjoyed it and I can't wait to go back Thursday!

Thanks again to everyone who boosted my confidence and gave me some great feedback. I look forward to more.

Kerry


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## Brother John (Feb 14, 2006)

Good goin Kerry!!
Thanks for letting us know.  
It sounds like you had a really good time. I knew you would.   I'm glad you're going to keep notes too! It really helps me I know. 

In a way I envy you, there's nothing like the excitement of getting underway in the martial arts!! ENJOY!!!!

I look forward to your updates on your progress!

Your Brother
John


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## BuddhaGirl (Feb 14, 2006)

Brother John, I mentioned you to Mr. Smith and he knew who you were and said you were a good guy. Just thought I'd pass that along. 

I also told him a bit about the conversation thread we have had here. He was amused. He also gave me some background on Kenpo and both Mr. Parker and Mr. Mills. It was very educational. A very good night overall. But I am beat now. But thats ok, tommorow morning 7am I will hit the gym and work off the soreness. 

Funny thing, tonight a friend of mine called and asked where I was this evening and I told her I had started taking Kenpo. Her response, aren't you afraid you might break a hip or something. Sheesh..what am I? 70?


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## michaeledward (Feb 14, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> So can someone remind me what is the the vertical outward block and the extended outward block. These are the only two I think I am "blocked" on


 
They are a bit hard to describe in words ..... but ... 

Vertical Outward Block - From your elbow to your fist is aligned vertically so that you can look at your fingers in your fist. (you should see your blocking hand fist, thumb on the right, pinky on the left). Your arm should be directly infront of your shoulder. 

Extended Outward Block - Is extended in two directions from the Vertical Outward Block ... it is just a bit more forward, and a bit more 'outside. The easiest way to accomplish this is to do a Vertical Outward Block, then rotate your fist in a clockwise manner (for the right hand), moving the forearm just a bit forward, and pivoted around its prior location. 

When thinking about blocks, think about a square shape at your shoulders; From your left shoulder to your right shoulder is one side of the square. On this square, the inward block should reach the opposite corner. (Right Inward Block reaches to the forward left corner). The Vertical Outward Block should reach the direct front corner (Left Vertical Outward Block reaches the forward left corner). The Extended Outward Block, is just on the outside of that square.

Good Luck ...


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## Sarah (Feb 14, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Her response, aren't you afraid you might break a hip or something. Sheesh..what am I? 70?


 

LOL...I dont train in Kenpo, but have enjoyed reading your posts. Like Brother John said it is very exciting embarking on a new adventure in MA.

You may find that some of your friends and family have odd reactions to the news that you train in MA, there are a few threads buried here on MT about it. People can react strangely to things they dont understand and/or know little about, but if you come across this dont let it discourage you, and if you ever need to talk about it thats what we are here for!!

Look forward to future updates.

Your sister in Martial Arts


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## Brother John (Feb 15, 2006)

BuddhaGirl said:
			
		

> Brother John, I mentioned you to Mr. Smith and he knew who you were and said you were a good guy. Just thought I'd pass that along.


 
I can't remember who said it, but there's a quote I like that says: "It's good to be remembered well by good people." So thanks for passing that along.

Break a hip huh??
That's funny.

Ya might, you know....
but it probably wouldn't be your own hip!!!  Hahaha.....   (just a joke. I Know that Mr. Smith will preach "Good control" to you)

Have a good one Kerry!! Drop a line if you ever need a thing.

Your Brother
John


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