# Fight Science on NGC



## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

What follows is my opinion.

OK, I wasn't going to watch it, then at the last moment out of curiosity, I DVArrrrrD it.  I still haven't finished watching it, though.  Thus far I am not impressed at all.  Although the premise of the show is interesting, the content was blah!   IMHO, it was just another XMA theatrical performance show.  There was plenty of ego and flashy theatrical moves to go around.

Getting to the Ninjutsu section, it really turned my stomach, my first thought was "What the hell was that supposed to be?"  I notice they didn't elaborate about the "Master's" background in Ninjutsu.  Furthermore, what he did, didn't look much like anything I have ever seen (live or memorex) well except for a f"ew" ryu videos from the internet. 

There were some bits of residual information sprinkled throughout the show that would be beneficial to people, if they were to pick up on them.  For the most part, the show was flash, flair, and lots of ego!

It is really a waste of time, I wouldn't miss Southpark for it.


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## Cruentus (Aug 21, 2006)

Really...

I enjoyed it.

The historical accuracy of some of the aspects may have been off (like "Dim Mak" being attributed to Ninjutsu), and it was a little bit to "martial arty" for my as well.

But besides that, I thought they did a decent job in discussing some of the main points.

I liked the use of load cells and crash test dummies to determine the traumatic potential of techniques and weapons. I thought that much of the scientific explainations were accurate and useful.

I would have to disagree on the idea of this being another "XMA" flashy thing. Although some of the sparring scenes were flashy and silly, there were some reputable personalities that were there being tested, like Dan Inasanto, one of the Gracie brothers, world champion Muay Thai and TKD champions, a reputable boxing trainer and professional, and so forth.

All and all, I thought it was more good then bad.


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## gardawamtu (Aug 21, 2006)

I thought it was pretty good.  I did not like how they "matched style against style" when measuring the power of certain strikes.  They did not account for the weight of the practitioner in any of their measurements.  The boxer was huge--of course he would have a more powerful punch.  They could've highlighted the strengths of each style rather than hyping up the competition.

I wish there was more of Gracie and Inosanto.  69 years old for inosanto -- it is just not fair to move that fast at 69.

All in all, it was interesting.  I don't think it was a repeat of XMA -- there were a lot less gymnastic moves in it.  I liked the highlighting of each style.  I wish there were more representatives, though.

I liked the demonstration of balance by the ninjitsu (or jutsu) practitioner, especially after watching the others attempt the balancing act on the poles.  I certainly respect that kind of talent.


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## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

gardawamtu said:
			
		

> I thought it was pretty good.  I did not like how they "matched style against style" when measuring the power of certain strikes.  They did not account for the weight of the practitioner in any of their measurements.  The boxer was huge--of course he would have a more powerful punch.  They could've highlighted the strengths of each style rather than hyping up the competition.


Shortly after that, they did say "Size does matter".  It certainly does when computing impact force.  




			
				gardawamtu said:
			
		

> I wish there was more of Gracie and Inosanto.  69 years old for inosanto -- it is just not fair to move that fast at 69.


I have no interest in  BJJ, but it was definitely interesting to see him move.  



			
				gardawamtu said:
			
		

> I liked the demonstration of balance by the ninjitsu (or jutsu) practitioner, especially after watching the others attempt the balancing act on the poles.  I certainly respect that kind of talent.


He did have good balance.   However, I would wager the Kung Fu practitioner on there could do it just as effortlessly.  In fact in the cut away scenes they had someone else doing it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 21, 2006)

I thought is was mediocre at best.  While I like the gauging of force because that is simply cool.  Force is and must be measured also by not only someones ability but also by size.  Clearly the Kung Fu guy was going to lose out in that regards.

The Ninjitsu master (what a joke) has never trained in authentic ninjutsu.  He is an aspiring stunt and movie guy.

The Tae Kwon Do guy should never have been the one demoing with bo, katana, etc. (he was awful in anything other than kicking or punching)

Obata, Gracie, Inosanto were fun to watch.  However, the show was just mediocre and was having a hard time keeping my interest or keeping me awake for that matter.

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 21, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The Ninjitsu master (what a joke) has never trained in authentic ninjutsu.  He is an aspiring stunt and movie guy.


That was my thoughts as well.




			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> The Tae Kwon Do guy should never have been the one demoing with bo, katana, etc. (he was awful in anything other than kicking or punching)


I have to agree.  He certainly could kick and punch with alot of power, but the bo was not his strong point.  Too much twirling, not enough moving the feet.



			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Obata, Gracie, Inosanto were fun to watch.


They were cool to watch.  The Kali sticks were interesting.



			
				Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> and was having a hard time keeping my interest or keeping me awake for that matter.


Same here.  I actually fell asleep.  Started watching it again this morning before work.  I have watched almost all of it.


Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com[/quote]


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## Rich Parsons (Aug 21, 2006)

Tulisan said:
			
		

> Really...
> 
> I enjoyed it.
> 
> ...



Paul,

No disrespect to Dan Inosanto, but do you think you or some others could have hit hard and still have control and done better with a single stick versus the faster double stick multiple hit strategy? (* like I said a different strategy not a question of skill or technique. *)

What I am trying to say is that depoending upon the "rules" of measurement and the approach of the attack the results could be different. 

Such as Judo or Aikido would not impact as hard, but would go for other locks / take downs / throws/ chokes. Chich from my understanding would not have fit well into their rules.

While the idea of using the sensors and science to measure it does matter upon ones premise or hypothesis, and how you execute the experiment that could effect the results.


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## Cruentus (Aug 21, 2006)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Paul,
> 
> No disrespect to Dan Inosanto, but do you think you or some others could have hit hard and still have control and done better with a single stick versus the faster double stick multiple hit strategy? (* like I said a different strategy not a question of skill or technique. *)


 
My point was that unlike XMA, of which this was compared too, they used some recognized professionals in their respective fields for the testing.

And every test has limitations; but that doesn't mean that the results aren't interesting or useful.

Frankly, everyone, I don't expect to see complete accuracy in historocity or stylistic accuracy from most collaborating groups, let alone people not completely submerged in each niche study. So you're going to get mistakes (like the "ninja" guy) and pointless comparisons of style. Saying so is really stating the obvious, and beating it to death is, to be blunt, pretty geeky.

As to evidence and science, I'm sorry to say that it isn't useful to reduce everything to subjectivity. Certain hitting methods are simply going to create more force then others (ie the boxing example). There are reliable methods to gather this data, and no, this show didn't dedicate the budget for it. But the conclusions based off their testing results are still interesting none the less.

The thing is, if I watch a program like this I don't put it up to an elitist standard that will most likely never be met. I keep it simple, and ask, "was it useful?" I think that this program, and the testing of the different strikes and such, was useful. It's interesting to see how much force an individual produced with a punch or a knee, or how much damage a katana could potentially do. The scientific explainations behind it all were neat too, and largely accurate.

So, I enjoyed it. One has to get passed the style vs style B.S. and theatrics and nerdy details to get there, I guess...

Paul


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

Paul,  

I do not think that the show proved that boxing hits harder. (and it is incorporated into what I do heavily)  It only proved that the particular boxer on the show hit harder.  Of which he was also the largest of all the people testing. (so he probably should have hit harder)  

All in all it was a mediocre show and the only thing it did prove is that martial artists can generate some enormous forces at certain times. 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 22, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> All in all it was a mediocre show and the only thing it did prove is that martial artists can generate some enormous forces at certain times.


I would agree with that!  I probably should have said mediocre as that is more fitting.  

Also, I finished it last night.  I really liked the kyudo and sword parts.  That was pretty cool.  Although, I was disappointed when they had the young fellow do the sword test on the ballistics gel.  I wanted the sword master to do it.  The other fellow didn't have very good sword skills in my opinion and I thought the sword master would have been able to fully demonstrate the lethal effects of the sword.    (sorry I cannot remember the names of the martial artists).  

After watching that I am definitely buying a live sword!    I have been playing around with the idea for quite some time.  It is time to get one.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 22, 2006)

Dave,

I will just bet that Obata said no way to doing it on the gel!
Therefore they had to use the Tae Kwon Do guy who had no
skill with the sword. :asian: 

Brian R. VanCise
www.instinctiveresponsetraining.com


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## Bigshadow (Aug 22, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I will just bet that Obata said no way to doing it on the gel!
> Therefore they had to use the Tae Kwon Do guy who had no
> ...


I sure enjoyed watching Obata cut!  He is very good! :asian:


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## hongkongfooey (Aug 30, 2006)

Brian R. VanCise said:
			
		

> Dave,
> 
> I will just bet that Obata said no way to doing it on the gel!
> Therefore they had to use the Tae Kwon Do guy who had no
> ...


 

Somewhere there are dead Samurai turning in their graves at the performance of the TKD Katana twirler.


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