# Marriage = having a witness to your life??



## Jenna (Jul 13, 2006)

Hello all my intently focussed friends 

We got to watching a lovely little film earlier and which I am remiss I do not even know what it was called but Richard Gere and yummy J-Lo and I thought it was a great sentiment Susan Sarandon.. her character discussing her marriage and what it was really all about .. and the line was that marriage is having a WITNESS to your life and I thought that was an incisive observation by the writer.. the premise being that a spouse can give relevance to EVERYTHING you do and even if your life is no great shakes then it is validated by being one of two partners interested and intertwined in even the most mundane details of each others lives.. I am silly and sentimental but I thought that was really nice and made me feel a little yearning or maybe envious of folk who have this between them for life..

But is it true? Sometimes always or never??

I am not married and prolly never will at this rate of travel ha! so I am not really qualified to comment and so I would appreciate any thoughts married or not.. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Swordlady (Jul 13, 2006)

I am a single woman, and most everyone I know (around my age) is married.  Personally, I think that it would help to be content with *your* own life as a single person first.  Nothing wrong with having a desire to get married "some day", but if you are unhappy and unfulfilled as a single person, what makes you think that marriage will be an automatic "happy pill"?

I've known many people who made the mistake of thinking that all they needed was a spouse to be "happy".  WRONG!  Sure, your a spouse becomes the *most* important relationship in your life (or at least should be), but _not even this person is capable of fulfilling every single need_.  You need other friends and interests.  You still need to be with other family members and relatives.  Heck, you'll need _alone_ time away from your spouse ever so often.

The other thing is that marriage simply isn't for everyone.  I have ZERO desire to get married.  Seriously.  I enjoy my singlehood and my freedom.  I enjoy being able to share my life with whoever I want.  I don't have an aching need or desire to "be" with someone.  It is my choice to never get married, and that is something I will never impose on anyone else.

I don't know if I answered your questions.  Those are just some of my thoughts about marriage.  Great for some, but not for me.


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## green meanie (Jul 13, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> .. and the line was that marriage is having a WITNESS to your life and I thought that was an incisive observation by the writer.. the premise being that a spouse can give relevance to EVERYTHING you do and even if your life is no great shakes then it is validated by being one of two partners interested and intertwined in even the most mundane details of each others lives..


 
My father said once that when things happened in his life, the events weren't _REAL_ until he came home and told my mom. My life is different and I can't say that I have the same outlook on life, but I understand what he meant.

I'm not sure if I answered you question very well Jenna but I hope it helps. :asian:


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 13, 2006)

An ex girl friend of mine used to say that even when you get married and then after, you still do not know your spouse, that is you continue to learn things about each other.  I ve never been married, part of the reason is what Swordlady wrote, at this point in my life I truly have no desire to give up my freedom.  And given the beautiful yet at the same time self centered and shallow city I live in, I usually make it to about the second date when I am simply turned off and decide to call it quits.

At this point in my life I am happy being who I am, I have a nice job, great friends, I love what I do, and I love my routine.  I am single again, but I am happy, and to be honest with you, I dont know if I will ever find that right person, I figure it will happen when it happens.  I guess in my world I dont really need someone to be there and to witness my life, I am happy well livin =) The truth is that I have a lot of friends who are married and cant stand each others' spouses, and I have friends that are married that have great relationships, but I think it all comes down to something Sword Lady said and I think its a great point: if you are not happy with yourself, what makes anyone think they will be happy married.


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## Nevada_MO_Guy (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> the line was that marriage is having a WITNESS to your life


Not married myself....hello ladies :wavey: 

I think that experiences can be more enjoyable when shared.

Whether being shared (or witnessed) with a girlfriend/boyfriend, partner or spouse the synergism of the two separate experiences are enhanced into a shared experience.


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## Ceicei (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my intently focussed friends
> 
> .. and the line was that marriage is having a WITNESS to your life and I thought that was an incisive observation by the writer.. the premise being that a spouse can give relevance to EVERYTHING you do and even if your life is no great shakes then it is validated by being one of two partners interested and intertwined in even the most mundane details of each others lives..
> 
> ...


True, at least for me.

I married my best friend.  What I am saying is that we were best friends before we married and still are best friends.  It was not a "love at first sight" relationship.  Essentially, we are happy with who we are before we married each other.

We started out learning about each other and took pleasure with being in each other's presence; we love to talk about various topics and we also enjoy times of silence.  We enjoy doing many things together, and recognize there are times we like doing some things alone.   We give time for each other to do things we truly enjoy, even if these hobbies and activities may not always involve each other.

We allow each other to be with our friends, yet always emphasize that we are a priority.  

We acknowledge we are human and have our own foibles--we may disagree at times, but we accept each other for who we are and celebrate when we achieve goals.  Our differences and similarities strengthen us.

We tell each other "I love you" several times daily.  We hug and kiss often.   

No, our marriage is not perfect--far from it, but we will never have it any other way.  We celebrated last month our 15th wedding anniversary.

- Ceicei


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## Andy Moynihan (Jul 14, 2006)

Not for me.

Marriage has been described as both a "cpommitment" and an "institution" and who the hell wants to be committed to an institution? :roflmao:


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## Jenna (Jul 14, 2006)

Swordlady said:
			
		

> I am a single woman, and most everyone I know (around my age) is married. Personally, I think that it would help to be content with *your* own life as a single person first. Nothing wrong with having a desire to get married "some day", but if you are unhappy and unfulfilled as a single person, what makes you think that marriage will be an automatic "happy pill"?
> 
> I've known many people who made the mistake of thinking that all they needed was a spouse to be "happy". WRONG! Sure, your a spouse becomes the *most* important relationship in your life (or at least should be), but _not even this person is capable of fulfilling every single need_. You need other friends and interests. You still need to be with other family members and relatives. Heck, you'll need _alone_ time away from your spouse ever so often.
> 
> ...


Jennifer my diamond-edged friend  wow! thank you for your reply.. I will say you are VERY defiant bout this and but I would respect that and expect only strong views from you but I would ask if you met an exact no-compromise match for yourself would you still be so defiant bout marrying? that can be a rhetorical if you rather..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jul 14, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> True, at least for me.
> 
> I married my best friend. What I am saying is that we were best friends before we married and still are best friends. It was not a "love at first sight" relationship. Essentially, we are happy with who we are before we married each other.
> 
> ...


Hey Ceicei  my word this is beautifully written and you have a most delicate way to express your points here thank you for sharing this and 15 years I think means you and your hub got your communication tweaked and which I am sure is a thing which is always changing as you yourselves change and I will say I am jealous of you and must alas wait for Colin Farrell to call me up again.. ha! (ooooh yes I met him properly already after a thing in Leicester Square here.. Mmmm.. those eyes..)

Thank you again my friend.. you are able to shine lights into dark corners for me..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## terryl965 (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna my dear I can only speak for me:
I have been married for 17 glorious years, I can not see myself without her she is my best friend, my spiritual bound and my emotional support. There is absolutely nothing like this feeling in the world. My day is completed with honey I love you more today than I did yesterday> Sound corny I know but it is true, do I say it out loud every night NO but she knows I say it inside and that is what counts.
Sincerly
Terry


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## Bigshadow (Jul 14, 2006)

I am married and I would like to throw my thoughts out here.  I don't know if I can articulate this well, so here goes.  Marriage is essentially a commitment, but being committed to someone brings many other things into one's life.  One of these things is sharing.  This isn't like "We will share our money", that is too shallow of a perception.  It is sharing life.  Sharing the experiences in life, good and bad.  Imagine if you will, getting a raise at work, or winning something, or even helping someone.  Having a companion to share this with feels far different than sharing the same information with a friend.  Say for instance your sick, a companion's words and actions of support feel much more supportive than the same words from a close friend.  Sharing is sharing in the experiences of life (a witness if you will).

I just cannot articulate well what I want.  However, the "witness to your life" is a very insightful description of it on many levels.

On another note, as others have stated, it isn't that the other person completes your life or one cannot live without the other, you still need your own identity in life, things that are yours and yours alone, but each share in the experiences of each other, they get to witness your life and somehow that makes a difference.

OK.  Sorry for rambling.  It is very difficult to put feelings into words, especially for me.   It is like capturing the feeling of budo in a picture, it cannot be done.  That is my .02 cents worth.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hello all my intently focussed friends
> 
> We got to watching a lovely little film earlier and which I am remiss I do not even know what it was called but Richard Gere and yummy J-Lo and I thought it was a great sentiment Susan Sarandon.. her character discussing her marriage and what it was really all about .. and the line was that marriage is having a WITNESS to your life and I thought that was an incisive observation by the writer.. the premise being that a spouse can give relevance to EVERYTHING you do and even if your life is no great shakes then it is validated by being one of two partners interested and intertwined in even the most mundane details of each others lives.. I am silly and sentimental but I thought that was really nice and made me feel a little yearning or maybe envious of folk who have this between them for life..
> 
> ...




Having been married, I would say that in a fairy tale or a movie it is great. 

In real life there is a lot of down issue that most people do not want to deal with.  If it works and the two are happy and get along then the witness comment makes sense. 

Otherwise from my experience and from those I have seen, Marriage is nothing more than an institute that no longer serves what it was designed for. Women in the West have rights and responsibilities and can get an education and a job or carear and support themselves and or their children and even sometimes their mates. 

Would it be nice? Yes. 

Do I have too much baggage to expect it? Yes.   

I am much happier on my own then I was with someone who was not happy with themselves. No matter how hard you try, and many times the harder you try the worse it gets, the other person is not happy, and therefore you are not happy. 

Be at peace with yourself and it should help with those around you.

:asian:


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## Fluffy (Jul 14, 2006)

Like Terry I can only speak for me.  

My wife complements me as well as challenges me.  We think allot alike, she is a 1st Dan in TKD, we're both former military, we have 1 child - and don't want anymore.  I can be a bit on the lazy side, she is always moving.  I love to workout, she would rather watch...untill I pull her out on the floor.  She is someone who I can talk to, she is someone who I can rely on, she is someone who will be there when all my other friends has gone home.

The one thing we can't do is spar, it turns into a big game of fotsies.....and that would be my fault.

Its a partnership, with out her I would be a different person.


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## John Brewer (Jul 14, 2006)

Another Great Thread!

When I met my wife I was on a road that probably could have led to my death. She gave me, at first, a reason to live my life right ,and later, the close relationship that is mentioned in some of the great posts that have come before mine. I guess I am one of the "lucky" ones. In triumph or in failure, in great joy or great pain, we are together. I consider the things I gave up a small token when compared to the times we have had and are having together. In short she completes me and I treasure our thirteen years together and how ever many more to come.

Sincerely,

John


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## matt.m (Jul 14, 2006)

Being married myself there is some relevance to the statement made about having a witness to your life.

It is a bit different and unique for me though.  I knew the woman I married for 10 years before we wed.  We have now been married almost 6 years.

So in some cases the "Witness to life" is true.  But each person and their lives are different.


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## Kreth (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna, first off, I have to give you kudos for sitting through an entire movie featuring J'Ho. I think her lousy acting is second only to that of Paris Hilton (I watched House of Wax for the sole purpose of seeing her die.)
Now, a question for you: When you say witness, is that for the defense or prosecution? :uhyeah:


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## Swordlady (Jul 14, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Jennifer my diamond-edged friend  wow! thank you for your reply.. I will say you are VERY defiant bout this and but I would respect that and expect only strong views from you but I would ask if you met an exact no-compromise match for yourself would you still be so defiant bout marrying? that can be a rhetorical if you rather..
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna



I wouldn't quite call my refusal to marry "defiant".    It's simply something I do not desire for myself.  Some people dreamed of getting married since their preteen years.  Others...don't.  I never had a desire to get married, despite several well-meaning friends' efforts to change my mind.  I really don't think marriage suits me as a person.  But that is just me.


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## Swordlady (Jul 14, 2006)

Kreth said:
			
		

> Jenna, first off, I have to give you kudos for sitting through an entire movie featuring J'Ho. I think her lousy acting is second only to that of Paris Hilton (I watched House of Wax for the sole purpose of seeing her die.)
> Now, a question for you: When you say witness, is that for the defense or prosecution? :uhyeah:



Now, now, now...J'Lo had a couple good movies.    She was great in "Selena", and I also enjoyed her performance in "Enough" (which got blasted by the movie critics).

Okay...enough with the hijacking of this thread - lol.


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## MRE (Jul 14, 2006)

I have been married for 10 years and had dated my wife for about 5 years prior to our wedding.  I don't think having a witness to my life is as important to me as being able to share and participate in the life of another.  Watching them beam in their moments of triumph, supporting them through their failures, being trusted with all their secrets, weaknesses, hopes, and dreams.  I don't think there is any other relationship that is as close as marriage.

Don't get me wrong, there have been times that we irritated each other so much that we couldn't stand to look at each other for a while.  My time with my wife has been passionate, confusing, irritating, heavenly, educational, stressful, blissful, hell, mundane, and fulfilling.  Wouldn't change a thing.


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## Bigshadow (Jul 14, 2006)

MRE said:
			
		

> I have been married for 10 years and had dated my wife for about 5 years prior to our wedding. I don't think having a witness to my life is as important to me as being able to share and participate in the life of another. Watching them beam in their moments of triumph, supporting them through their failures, being trusted with all their secrets, weaknesses, hopes, and dreams. I don't think there is any other relationship that is as close as marriage.



I believe that fits the meaning of witness as used in this context.


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## MRE (Jul 14, 2006)

Yeah, I guess it does.  But, I guess in my definition, it is more important for me to be a witness for her life, than for her to be a witness for mine.  I don't know if that makes a difference though.


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## Jenna (Jul 15, 2006)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Jenna my dear I can only speak for me:
> I have been married for 17 glorious years, I can not see myself without her she is my best friend, my spiritual bound and my emotional support. There is absolutely nothing like this feeling in the world. My day is completed with honey I love you more today than I did yesterday> Sound corny I know but it is true, do I say it out loud every night NO but she knows I say it inside and that is what counts.
> Sincerly
> Terry


Hey Terry my wise friend .. if you and your good lady share these sentiments between you and you mean them sincerely then NO this does not sound corny at all it sounds lovely and it pleases me a VERY great deal to know that despite all of what we read in papers bout marriage being a dying institution and made to believe that good marriages are a rarity that you and other folks good enough to reply to me are proof against the doomsayers that this is not the case at all..

Thank you my friend and congratulations on 17 and I will wish for you that you have many many more than that to come 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Jenna (Jul 15, 2006)

Thank you all my friends for your careful and lovely replies.. OK.. I put all my responses here in ONE post cos it was suggested to me that I was just a big gloryhound replying to everyone just to bump up my post counts or something! and but that is not true at all I PROMISE I do not even care bout that I just like talking to you all SO much and but anyway I will put them all in the one so I cannot be accused of this...
SO....


*To David*  thank you for sharing this and I thinkyou have articulated this admirably and I would imagine exactly that a relationship such as yours can only be understood through experience and not via explanations and the very fact that you have DIFFICULTY in explaining something so overwhelmingly positive throws plenty of light on how you are feeling if you understand what I mean..

Thank you again.. and I am sending a few little wishes your way.. 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Rich* well thank you for sharing  ahh.. and naturally after your experiences it is understandable that your view is skewed the one way and which is natural.. but you describe marriage up above as though it was designed for a frail woman to cotton onto and shore herself up with some stalwart breadwinner while she remains barefoot pregnant and tied to the stove.. I do not know if that was what marriage was "designed" for.. For me marriage is a natural progression from a natural desire in all humans to find partners to connect to physically and spiritually and you know because you would agree I hope because you have done it already.. and the fact of the marriage itself is simply to say IMO.. I am going to commit my life to a partnership for good and bad.. But you are correct and as Swordlady has said marriage is not for everyone.. some are happily single some are unable to commit to lifelong monogamy and this I would certainly understand also and but that does not mean the institution cannot thrive if partners are sufficiently complementary to each other and are prepared to adapt to the constant changes do you not think?? anyway that is just my opinion and you would say WTH do I know bout anything.. 

But I would say the most important thing now is that YOU are happy with yourself as a person.. but I still think we do seek and it is our nature to seek longterm partners would you agree?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Fluffy*  thank you again for this it is another lovely affirmation of how well marriage can work and of course I am envious of what you have together and good luck to you I say.. be good to yourselves for me!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To John*  thank you for sharing! And you are correct we meet folk in so many different and unexpected ways whether through fate or coincidence I think it would be lovely to look back on after a long period of time and I do not know bout you describing yourself as "one of the lucky ones" I do not know what percentage of luck is involved but maybe there is only a small % luck and a large % love.. I mean to have 13 years of just "luck" would suggest to me you could have been a wealthy poker player by now!! no.. I think luck is only a small part of what has kept you tight together for that length of time.. anyway.. take care of yourselves for loads more sets of 13..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Matt M*  thank you my friend and you are right people are still separate entities no doubt but I think the idea of the witness was that no matter how trivial the stuff we do.. and we all have to do mundane things.. but no matter how small there is in a marriage always someone who will care or at least BE THERE through it. I do not know if that makes sense from your position.. as I say I am only looking to learn something and not trying to sound authoritative on anything.. Thank you again!! I wish you well.

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To mister* *Kreth* now I will not hear that bout the yummy J-Lo she is just like me.. Jenna from the block.. well.. cept she has her own Learjet which would seem to belie that notion but ahh.. still she is food for the eyes and what is wrong with that?? Do not tell me you watch Angelina or Jeri Ryan because of their great diction or projection or acting methodologies, no sir! Anyway if God had designed a woman just for men to ogle at he would not have had to think too long before deriving an Angelina Jolie / Jeri Ryan hybrid .. ugh.. and these women are just TOO much of the one thing and not enough of the other.. and I do not even know what conversation I am having now, ha!

And anyway I am STILL waiting for that call from Colin Farrell ..pffft.. and you would not believe me if I said I have met quite a few celebs here when they go on their promotion rounds out of Leicester Square and most of them go to the same clubs afterwards but Colin Farrell was the sweetest but a little impudent and says um.. what was on his mind.. I have plenty of tales for you bout but you would not even believe me anyway I would imagine.. 

OK stay outta trouble now..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,

~~~~

*To Swordlady* .. ah now my friend I did not use the term "refusal" you said that yourself and now the word "refusal" really DOES make you sound defiant! ha!   Nah I am just joking with you as you will notice I can do that from behind the safety of this bladeproof perspex screen LOL.. and but I am still wondering you have not answered me you cheeky girl.. would you reconsider to marriage if you met the exact right match for you? That is my questionfor you.. Who knows that might happen this very day and you lolling around town with your big "DEFIANTLY SINGLE (AND HAPPY)" T Shirt ahh that would be the missed opportunity I think..  ***checks integrity of perspex screen***

Ahh you know I am just joking I hope I am not offensive to you.. I love you all too much to be hurtful I amjust playing..  

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~~

*To MRE*..  wow thank you you have elaborated on the witness theme exactly as I had thought it for myself.. this is amazingly put and thank you for sharing and I wish you well my friend 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 15, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *To Rich* well thank you for sharing  ahh.. and naturally after your experiences it is understandable that your view is skewed the one way and which is natural.. but you describe marriage up above as though it was designed for a frail woman to cotton onto and shore herself up with some stalwart breadwinner while she remains barefoot pregnant and tied to the stove.. I do not know if that was what marriage was "designed" for.. For me marriage is a natural progression from a natural desire in all humans to find partners to connect to physically and spiritually and you know because you would agree I hope because you have done it already.. and the fact of the marriage itself is simply to say IMO.. I am going to commit my life to a partnership for good and bad.. But you are correct and as Swordlady has said marriage is not for everyone.. some are happily single some are unable to commit to lifelong monogamy and this I would certainly understand also and but that does not mean the institution cannot thrive if partners are sufficiently complementary to each other and are prepared to adapt to the constant changes do you not think?? anyway that is just my opinion and you would say WTH do I know bout anything..
> 
> But I would say the most important thing now is that YOU are happy with yourself as a person.. but I still think we do seek and it is our nature to seek longterm partners would you agree?
> 
> ...



Jenna,

Me GROK! Me hit women with club and we married.   (* When I have found from my experience the women hit the men and let them know when it is time to get married.  *)

Actually, Marriage is an old institute, that has been around, and it was created during a time frame when women and children were considered property of non-entities.  Sad I know, but hopefully we can say there has been some growth in some form of culture. 

Marriage as a partnership of equals is a merger. If done as a business arrangement it seems so un-emotional and lacking in love.  If done out of "Love" only, with the expectation that love will carry them through then the hard parts, this is bad as well, for it takes work by both to make it work. 

If one person is the only one working on the relationship then that person has a tendacy of lossing and or compromising everything for the other.  And for that "old time" woman who was raised as such and expected such maybe that was fine. 

My point is that today one can be the heir of another without being married. One can get pregnant and not be stoned or kicked out of town and raise a child alone. A man can actually obtain custody of his kids in a divorce, (* Having friends who have had children below the age of 12 who were able to fight for or obtain full custody. *) as well as share in the growth of children's development and not have the same last name (* Step father or family friend called "uncle" or what have you *), with out the children being outcasts of society. 

So, if marriage is entered into between two people who have the same desires and goals then this is good. But, we as a society have come up with ways of dealing with all the other issues, so it is not required, by law or by culture norms or standards. It may be an issue of religion and faith and that is fine as well, for those who follow that road.


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## bluemtn (Jul 15, 2006)

Honestly, the whole idea of marriage scares the crap out of me!  Now, don't let what I'm about to write scare you, this is just me venting and I know better (a little).  I've seen quite a few marriages end bad, some of which were flat out bad relationships.  I've been lucky and my parents are still happily together after 40 years, but I have relatives gone through some doosies-  ranging from just don't get along, to abuse of various kinds.  It's worse when children are involved.  What have I learned?  Not everyone out there are like those I've seen, and to trust my gut instincts.  There's probably more to be gained from the experiences, but it's hard to think about it and write it all down.


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## Swordlady (Jul 16, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *To Swordlady* .. ah now my friend I did not use the term "refusal" you said that yourself and now the word "refusal" really DOES make you sound defiant! ha!   Nah I am just joking with you as you will notice I can do that from behind the safety of this bladeproof perspex screen LOL.. and but I am still wondering you have not answered me you cheeky girl.. would you reconsider to marriage if you met the exact right match for you? That is my questionfor you.. Who knows that might happen this very day and you lolling around town with your big "DEFIANTLY SINGLE (AND HAPPY)" T Shirt ahh that would be the missed opportunity I think..  ***checks integrity of perspex screen***
> 
> Ahh you know I am just joking I hope I am not offensive to you.. I love you all too much to be hurtful I amjust playing..
> 
> ...



Nah...you haven't offended me, Jenna.  Honestly, marriage isn't appealing to me at all.  As for the "perfect match", I strongly doubt that will happen...


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 16, 2006)

I have often told my friends who were thinking about getting married that I had 2 things to say to them.

*1.* Do you like freedom?
Typical answer is "Oh yeah, I like to come and go as I please. Sleep when I want and do what I want".

*2.* Do you like money?
Typical answer is "Yes"

Then my answer is; If you like both of those then don't get married. Undoubtetly you will lose 1 or the other or both. Marriage is such a struggle of give and take. People also change to their surroundings. This can mean from age, friends, co-workers, lifestyle. The person you think you married in the beginning might not be the same person 12yrs. later. Maybe 15yrs. later. There are so many variables associated with marriage that yes
It ain't for everyone.


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## crushing (Jul 16, 2006)

I didn't really care for those quote at first, mostly because of the word witness.  To me 'witness' seems so impersonal and third-partyish.  To me, witness is along the lines of a spectator.  Not thinking of a better word off the top of my head, and thinking that the word witness didn't fully appreciate the involvement and intimacy that my wife and I share I started searching for synonyms for witness and I couldn't find a better word.

Anyway, to get back to your question.  I think that answer is a definite sometimes.     Just like the word witness may mean something else to me, the institution of marriage (haha) may hold different things for different people.  How one perceives and understands, not only marriage, but their partner, probably also changes over time.  They are not snapshots in time, but ever changing.

Also, while 'researching' your question I ran across this blog or whatever.  You may find it entertaining or at least related to your question.  Oh, I also found that the movie was "Shall We Dance".

http://people.monstersandcritics.com/article_1132190.php/Wedlock_Marriage_Mirror


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## John Brewer (Jul 16, 2006)

To John  thank you for sharing! And you are correct we meet folk in so many different and unexpected ways whether through fate or coincidence I think it would be lovely to look back on after a long period of time and I do not know bout you describing yourself as "one of the lucky ones" I do not know what percentage of luck is involved but maybe there is only a small % luck and a large % love.. I mean to have 13 years of just "luck" would suggest to me you could have been a wealthy poker player by now!! no.. I think luck is only a small part of what has kept you tight together for that length of time.. anyway.. take care of yourselves for loads more sets of 13..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Thanks for responding! It's just my opinion, but I think we were brought together by God.


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## tradrockrat (Jul 17, 2006)

Well, this is where I lose my "man badge" and get my macho status revoked, but I was a "never get married in a million years" guy.  Loved my freedoom, happy with myself, and pleased with where life was taking me - though I would have liked to get ther faster -  

Then I met a chick on a blind date.  slowly over the course of a year I realized I had found something I had never known was missing.  She IS a witness to my life and I'm hers.  WE are best friends, confidants, and she actually *enables* me to enjoy true freedom.  I went from a certified player (one friend was speechless for several minutes after I announced my engagement, then responded with, "You?  What?  But you wrote the book...  Oh ****!") to an equal partner in a much more rich and diversified life.

We've been together four years now and we celebrated our 1 year wedding anniversary two weeks ago.


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## Jimi (Jul 17, 2006)

Congrats Bro! PEACE! I did not ask my wife for permission to post that!  These may be my final words, and no Tradrockrat!, you can not have my Thai Dha when I am gone. LOL! PEACE


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## Jenna (Jul 18, 2006)

To *Rich*.. hey big guy.. you said this here..Marriage as a partnership of equals is a merger. If done as a business arrangement it seems so un-emotional and lacking in love. If done out of "Love" only, with the expectation that love will carry them through then the hard parts, this is bad as well, for it takes work by both to make it work. 
​if love exists and is present then everything else will feed off that, right? meaning the good stuff gets better and the bad stuff is more manageable being shared by two equal and interested partners. Is this not right? Obviously lose the love and the marriage engine loses most of its cylinders.. I dunno am I just showing myself up in my ignorance? Probably.. but anyway that is why I am asking... 

Take it easy.. 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

to my friend *tkdgirl*.. I hope you are well today.. and are you saying my friend that you have maybe an aversion at this time to marriage but if you met the ideal match for you would you not at least consider it? I know that is personal I will not pry but I wonder do you not take anything from all the wonderful positive posts here already? thank you again  and look after yourself..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

to *Swordlady*... Oooh you are SO evasive like the diplomat you are and not answering my question AGAIN my friend I think ifyou are THIS evasive when you fight you must surely present nothing but empty space to your opponents strikes!!  but see now you have me like that little terrier I mentioned somewhere else but i promise will not go chasing you for anymore answers but I am curious why no perfect match exists for you? And you are not paying attention to your signature quote and I worry it is only there as a token... but I will say instead I am only delving because I feel the same as you as if no perfect match exists for me because I am too hard to please.. I like doing what I want and disappearing away where nobody knows and do not like dependence (or dependents).. 

And it strikes me as funny that we expect to find the perfect match working in our workplace or training in our dojo or living in our town or our county or even our country.. out of 6bn folk what makes us assume the best match is right under our noses anyway? and what makes us think that when we find the perfect match.. there aint an even better match? out of 6bn it seems statistically improbable that we hit the target straightaway and yet many folk get married on exactly this basis.. some last forever and that of course disproves the point but some are like Britney just for the weekend and others marriages are like a big scientific trial and error experiment like Liz Taylor.. 

Ahh but see I say all these things but I am STILL happy to think of being married some day and enjoy reading bout how amazing a thing a marriage can be from all the folk who took time to post.. Oh well maybe i am just naive.. let us hope we find whatever it is we are looking for.. 

F24 seeks M24+.. Russell Brand ideally (Mmmmm.. ) but will compromise for kind heart + GSOH + viable haircut

Take care 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~


To *Jason* thank you for this and I am not certain if your cynicism is from your married experience or from outside observation?? So you are saying marriage = loss of existing freedom and money too? wow that is a really constrained marriage where both partners are a drain on each other and there is no sense of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts (combined monies) or enjoying each others company such that freedom isn't desired so much.. oh well.. bang goes that idea, ha! 

Be good..
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

To *Crushing*  hey thanks for this and tell me please.. does your ID imply that you actively crush things? apologies if I misinterpret.. anyway yes you are a good researcher and found the name of that film which I did not even see the beginning of and would not have made a point of watching but was really rather nice in a girly way.. but the term witness I am not certain you are picking the meaning and I understand the interpretation you choose but for me anyway the witness is not some distant objective outside observer but rather someone to share intimately even the smallest of issues and episodes which to anyone else outside the marriage would seem trivial and unimportant.. and no matter what in a working marriage there is always someone to share.. well.. it makes sense to me anyway whether it is theoretical or actual I cannot know for myself and which is why I asked for opinion 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

To *John*  that is a very confident assertion my friend and I would share your view I think but let me ask you to step aside from that if possible .. I would wonder is it easy to say something is divinely inspired when it is good .. but what does that mean for those who find themselves in marriages that are no good.. or worse.. abusive?? what I wonder did THEY do wrong? Are all marriages not divinely blessed? Or just the those with ceremonies performed in places of worship? Or just those between the religiously faithful? I am interested in your view my friend 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

to *Tradrockrat*  hey this is a really special thing and you put this so well.. see I think I might be a "never in a million years" person but it is good to hear you recount this as "never say never".. and well done and congratulations on your anniversary.. hope you had a great celebration!! and I hope your verve never dwindles.. good luck 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## stickarts (Jul 18, 2006)

Hello all,
I think one key to making it all work is going into the committment focusing on what you can give, and how you can improve your partners life. I think one common problem is that the focus is often on what one wants to always GET from the relationship. 
Making the committment with the right person forms a base on which you can build your life. Every day when I see my family I feel very lucky.
Marriage is definately not for everyone and I do think the trend is moving away from marriage, however, marriage can be great when you find the right person and approach it with the right attitude.
People do change and grow apart sometimes and thats where challenges can also develop.
It sure isn't always easy!   But for me my life has been far better with my family than when I was single.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 18, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> To *Rich*.. hey big guy.. you said this here..Marriage as a partnership of equals is a merger. If done as a business arrangement it seems so un-emotional and lacking in love. If done out of "Love" only, with the expectation that love will carry them through then the hard parts, this is bad as well, for it takes work by both to make it work.
> ​if love exists and is present then everything else will feed off that, right? meaning the good stuff gets better and the bad stuff is more manageable being shared by two equal and interested partners. Is this not right? Obviously lose the love and the marriage engine loses most of its cylinders.. I dunno am I just showing myself up in my ignorance? Probably.. but anyway that is why I am asking...
> 
> Take it easy..
> ...



Jenna,

The initial "Love" that so many people want to get married on, is not the "Love" that will carry them through the hard times. They have expectations of their partners, that may have thought were obvious, but were not communicated. Hence my comments about a merger. Put everything down that you want out of the relationship and marriage and see if your partner is willing to work with you, as are you willing to work with them. Of course there will be times when one will carry the other one, but that is to be expected, but assumptions and expectations that are not communicated are a cause for misunderstandings, and those misunderstanding make it hard to continuously get through the hard spots, as they grow and grow. 

But then again, my experiences are limited, and those I have observed that seem to have worked were either lucky and were both on the same page, (* I have seen one change 15 years into a marriage so it went bad, so no 100% chance on anything *), one subjected themselves to the other as was their wish, but some times it turned out not to be what one or both wanted in the end. 

I have some adopted nephews and nieces, (* children of those friends who I call brother, and treat like family, and treat their family like family *) and one set had their mother leave the relationship, she tried to blame it on him, and kicked him out for a night while she calmed down. He left, 6 weeks later he left my house to move in with his parents as she was still involved with an internet relationship. Supposedly nothing came of it, and she called me and was crying about wanting him back. I told her I wanted nothing to do with this. but if she wanted him back to go tell him. They got back together and she still made it seem like it was all his fault. Four years later, she left the state, and is now is living with antoher guy, and he has custody of his children. 

I have had to try to explain to them that they may not like what their mom has done, but that she is still their mom, and she should still be respected and even loved as a mother. So it is hard to not like someone you love, and this can be done when they do not live with you, but if it is your spouse, then in that case I find it impossible to continue. 

So, above "Love" there should also be communications and also friendship. In the end having a friend share your life would be better than having a spouse you cannot stand be a witness to your life. 

:asian:


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## Bigshadow (Jul 18, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> To *Rich*.. hey big guy.. you said this here..Marriage as a partnership of equals is a merger. If done as a business arrangement it seems so un-emotional and lacking in love. If done out of "Love" only, with the expectation that love will carry them through then the hard parts, this is bad as well, for it takes work by both to make it work.
> ​if love exists and is present then everything else will feed off that, right? meaning the good stuff gets better and the bad stuff is more manageable being shared by two equal and interested partners. Is this not right? Obviously lose the love and the marriage engine loses most of its cylinders.. I dunno am I just showing myself up in my ignorance? Probably.. but anyway that is why I am asking...
> 
> Take it easy..
> ...


Love drives people to commitment.  It boils down to sharing (commitment creates a vested interest in each other).  Instead of two people being the centers of their own universe that happen to live in close proximity to each other, it is two people who are the center of their own singular universe, they are "sharing" the same universe.  This is supported a great deal by commitment and a lot of selflessness.  This is what keeps both people in there when times get rough (and it will from time to time). Children are another aspect, they are also part of that same center of the universe.  This will require a much deeper commitment and selflessness.   However, the center of that universe is enriched beyond imagination because of this.  This doesn't mean one has to lose their true identity, each has to have a small part of the center of that universe that is theirs and maintained by them.


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 18, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> To *Jason* thank you for this and I am not certain if your cynicism is from your married experience or from outside observation?? So you are saying marriage = loss of existing freedom and money too? wow that is a really constrained marriage where both partners are a drain on each other and there is no sense of the whole being greater than the sum of the parts (combined monies) or enjoying each others company such that freedom isn't desired so much.. oh well.. bang goes that idea, ha!


I was speaking from personal experience as well as seeing my good friend have the same situation in a different place. I see this with my co-workers too. Maybe it's just our area here in ohio, maybe not. Like all things you will get good or bad. Kinda like buying a lemon car. What if when looking at the cars did you not pick the same exact one right beside it?


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## Flying Crane (Jul 18, 2006)

Hi Jenna,

I was married almost four years ago, at the ripe old age of 31.  Seems older than what most people do, but I certainly wasn't ready any time earlier than that.

I met my wife when I was in a different relationship.  My girlfriend at the time was a good person, but was chronically depressed.  I spent two and a half years trying to fix the world for her, before I gave up and split.

In the meantime, I had this friend, who I met doing martial arts (capoeira).  Shared interest, I would see her when I went to class, she was cool and fun to talk to.  Suddenly we were dating.  I was surprised by it all because after the earlier breakup, I was ready for some solitude for a good long time (read: forever).  But she had this way of making me laugh a lot and I realized that it could actually be FUN spending time with someone.  I looked forward to it in a way I hadn't before.  We got married a couple years later.

Most people annoy me.  Even my friends, who I love dearly, but after a while I just need my peace and quiet and need them to go away for a while.  That's just me.  But my wife doesn't annoy me.  I think she is the only one I have met so far who doesn't annoy me like that.  I think if I hadn't met her, I would perhaps have never gotten married.

Is being married having a witness?  I don't see it that way.  It's having someone to share the journey with, and the sharing makes it more fun.


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## John Brewer (Jul 18, 2006)

To John  that is a very confident assertion my friend and I would share your view I think but let me ask you to step aside from that if possible .. I would wonder is it easy to say something is divinely inspired when it is good .. but what does that mean for those who find themselves in marriages that are no good.. or worse.. abusive?? what I wonder did THEY do wrong? Are all marriages not divinely blessed? Or just the those with ceremonies performed in places of worship? Or just those between the religiously faithful? I am interested in your view my friend 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

Jenna,

Hello my friend I do not think all things put in our lives by God have to be what we see as good. Sometimes I know I need to be put back in the right direction, but I believe He means all things for good for those who believe in him. As to no good or even worse abusive relationships I do not believe God would do that. As people we have free choice and there are often consequences to the choices we make. Not that this makes abuse okay, I strongly believe that men that hit women should be given a good dose of their own medicine. I'm sure many marriages performed in the "proper" place and way end in divorce. I don't believe in religion. I believe in a personal relationship with the creator of the universe. When I met my wife I was not living a Christian life. I can't say that I understand God's will in everything. All I know is God is Good!

Thank you,

John


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## Jenna (Jul 19, 2006)

*To Frank*  hey my friend that is a nice way to look at it from the giving point of view and which I would always try myself and if you can keep it going all through the years then that is a perfect way to conduct your marriage I would imagine.. thank you 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Rich*  Ahh Rich you are wise and always make sense to me and see I am listening to you and taking it in and then thinking ahh but that would not be me and but I am conceited to think if I found someone it would last for always and I know no one goes into marriage NOT believing it will last forever but plainly for many it does not.. but is there any sense in the idea that people are too lazy to work at things? I mean we are used to fast food and disposable possessions and everything is treated like a consumable I think and I wonder do we even treat partners like that also?? I have one of my peepz who got married just last year and yes I was bridesmaid huh! and but they had to live apart because of where his job was and just six months in and he went off looking for other women and I think that was just the worst thing and they have separated altogether which broke my heart I will say and but I wonder what is wrong with people? You get married and maybe it is impossible to turn off the ol urges that help us to get partners in the first place.. is that what it is? I do not now maybe you would have a thought since you always put things well for me..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*TO David*  hey my friend you have put that succinctly and in a very poetic way thank you and yes I get that idea instead of being two binary suns orbiting.. partners they become a massive singular star that is nice you like my little analogy? ha! but yes selflessness is a great word and I wonder sometimes do people REALLY know how to be selfless.. you just have to look about to see how caught up in themselves we all are at times.. oh well I am glad you have seen beyond that and realised that your identity as that binary star is not lost in the big star.. that is nice thank you  and I wish you lots of happy things..

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Jason*  hey thank you for following up and on your mention of "lemon" cars I am thinking again why we imagine that the car we pick out from the courtyard of the local dealership is the right car for us.. why would we not go to another county or heck another country to find the perfect car for us? I think we are lazy and pick a car from the local traders magazine and compromise on the fact that it aint got climate control or whatever.. but then maybe later we realise we are too hot and uncomfortable in our car without the aircon... hmmmm.. well is that right do you think?

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*To Michael*  wow! that is a fantastic story thank you so much for sharing.. I could see the film version of that easily!! I think that is a lovely illustration that fate and coincidence go a long way to replace planning and design! AND I am encouraged also that you got a nice happy ending I am sentimental for that! though I am puzzled by you saying "most people annoy me" but I will not pry into that but I am still interested in why maybe..

And you are both capoeiristas ha! That is SO cool.. I will not even ask bout your hometime roda!!  ahh but I have a naughty imagination and will think on it anyways, ha! LOL 

Take care of yourself and your little roda partner 
Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna

~~~

*TO John*  ahh you have made me nod my head in agreement with you. I am glad you have these things sorted out in your head alas I am not so clear as you but am certainly happy for you (and a little envious of your clearheadedness!) my regards to you!

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *To Michael*  though I am puzzled by you saying "most people annoy me" but I will not pry into that but I am still interested in why maybe..
> 
> And you are both capoeiristas ha! That is SO cool.. I will not even ask bout your hometime roda!!  ahh but I have a naughty imagination and will think on it anyways, ha! LOL
> 
> ...


 
Maybe "annoy" is a bit too strong, at least for my friends.  I guess I just find that I like my solitude and privacy.  I love to spend time with friends, but at some point I just need to be left alone again.  Difficult to explain further than that.


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## Jenna (Jul 19, 2006)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Maybe "annoy" is a bit too strong, at least for my friends. I guess I just find that I like my solitude and privacy. I love to spend time with friends, but at some point I just need to be left alone again. Difficult to explain further than that.


Michael my clever friend you do not have to explain the virtue of solitariness to me one bit  Someone smart once said.. "we are rarely PROUD when we are alone.." and but I think there is even much more to it than that sort of self evaluation.. some of us do instinctively seek a little solitude not as loners I think but in my case just to clear a little Jenna space with no one else in there.. anyways I truly believe it is easier to appreciate company after a little time to ourselves.. thank you again 

Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Flying Crane (Jul 19, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Michael my clever friend you do not have to explain the virtue of solitariness to me one bit  Someone smart once said.. "we are rarely PROUD when we are alone.." and but I think there is even much more to it than that sort of self evaluation.. some of us do instinctively seek a little solitude not as loners I think but in my case just to clear a little Jenna space with no one else in there.. anyways I truly believe it is easier to appreciate company after a little time to ourselves.. thank you again
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna


 
Early on in our dating relationship, my wife once made a statement that went a long way in showing her understanding of me.  She said this out of the blue, without me bringing it up, or discussing this in any way.  She told me that, just so I know, if I ever needed her to clear out and give me some space for a while, that was OK and I just needed to say the word.  

I knew when she said that, that I wouldn't need to.


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 19, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *To Jason*  hey thank you for following up and on your mention of "lemon" cars I am thinking again why we imagine that the car we pick out from the courtyard of the local dealership is the right car for us.. why would we not go to another county or heck another country to find the perfect car for us? I think we are lazy and pick a car from the local traders magazine and compromise on the fact that it aint got climate control or whatever.. but then maybe later we realise we are too hot and uncomfortable in our car without the aircon... hmmmm.. well is that right do you think?


Well then.... You are just gonna drag me into this conversation aren't 'ya? From my experiences I've seen more long term relationships work out rather than marriages. Maybe, possibly, they are able to get along better as a whole knowing that at any time you can leave. I don't know (shrugs shoulders) just my thoughts. There is so much strain on marriage of even who is or who will pay such and such a bill. What's for dinner. Do you like this.... No. Why didn't you do....... Well I thought you were. The list can go on. As I stated before. As you get older your ideas, thoughts, and perceptions chance. At this point I wouldn't look at a woman the same as I did when I was 20. This just comes from maturity. As soon as kids come along that puts even more strain on the relationship. Maybe the individual talk beforehand about kids. How many do you want? I don't know? HOw many do you want? .... Well here's one. OK, let's get by doing such and such. Hey, guess what? Another kid along. Ok, let's change our lifestyle to accomidate. Um.... Hey, guess what? Ugh. Yes? you know the rest. There are people cut out for parenting as well. Others are not. Now you are tied at least 18yrs. of life with your significant other. 

Now before I get nasty hate emails and PM's and such. Don't get me wrong there are some very nice relationships out there. Some where 2 people just really dig eachother all the time. Kids are no problem. I salute each and every one that finds that relationship. However, they are scarce. The general public don't want to put in that much effort. There are always good and bad of everything. Whether it be marriage, parenting, even your co-worker. Some you want to hand a pink slip to and others you know the company can't do without. 
Sorry, I'm done ranting now.


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## Jenna (Jul 19, 2006)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> Well then.... You are just gonna drag me into this conversation aren't 'ya? From my experiences I've seen more long term relationships work out rather than marriages. Maybe, possibly, they are able to get along better as a whole knowing that at any time you can leave. I don't know (shrugs shoulders) just my thoughts. There is so much strain on marriage of even who is or who will pay such and such a bill. What's for dinner. Do you like this.... No. Why didn't you do....... Well I thought you were. The list can go on. As I stated before. As you get older your ideas, thoughts, and perceptions chance. At this point I wouldn't look at a woman the same as I did when I was 20. This just comes from maturity. As soon as kids come along that puts even more strain on the relationship. Maybe the individual talk beforehand about kids. How many do you want? I don't know? HOw many do you want? .... Well here's one. OK, let's get by doing such and such. Hey, guess what? Another kid along. Ok, let's change our lifestyle to accomidate. Um.... Hey, guess what? Ugh. Yes? you know the rest. There are people cut out for parenting as well. Others are not. Now you are tied at least 18yrs. of life with your significant other.
> 
> Now before I get nasty hate emails and PM's and such. Don't get me wrong there are some very nice relationships out there. Some where 2 people just really dig eachother all the time. Kids are no problem. I salute each and every one that finds that relationship. However, they are scarce. The general public don't want to put in that much effort. There are always good and bad of everything. Whether it be marriage, parenting, even your co-worker. Some you want to hand a pink slip to and others you know the company can't do without.
> Sorry, I'm done ranting now.


Hey Jason  yes I will drag you into the vortex.. ha! I will drag yous all down with me where I am going.. but hey these are all good observations and yet I think your insightful observations could equally apply to ANY relationship besides a one nighter.. dont you think? like here.. you said "The general public don't want to put in that much effort" and that is what I was saying to Rich that we are lazy and yet are these things not worth bothering over? Surely that is not the case. but the thing I wonder most about is the argument that marriages are not so good in comparison to just relationships because there is less of a chance to leave.. which must not be good for those in long term relationships to think the partner is not an advocate of marriage because they have actually given thought to leaving.. 

>>hey babes you are just the best thing that ever happened but let us not get hitched in case I change my mind.. 
>>oooh darling that is such a reassuring thing to say to me.. but I am one step ahead and have packed my bag I am off with Jason the guy I met in my MA class..
>>You are doing WHAT?? Oh well.. boy am I glad I never said I DO.. getting dumped out like this is so much neater than a divorce..
>>yeah Jason from my MA class.. he is averse to marrying also.. so I can take him or leave him too.. ha!


Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
Jenna


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> *To Rich*  Ahh Rich you are wise and always make sense to me and see I am listening to you and taking it in and then thinking ahh but that would not be me and but I am conceited to think if I found someone it would last for always and I know no one goes into marriage NOT believing it will last forever but plainly for many it does not.. but is there any sense in the idea that people are too lazy to work at things? I mean we are used to fast food and disposable possessions and everything is treated like a consumable I think and I wonder do we even treat partners like that also?? I have one of my peepz who got married just last year and yes I was bridesmaid huh! and but they had to live apart because of where his job was and just six months in and he went off looking for other women and I think that was just the worst thing and they have separated altogether which broke my heart I will say and but I wonder what is wrong with people? You get married and maybe it is impossible to turn off the ol urges that help us to get partners in the first place.. is that what it is? I do not now maybe you would have a thought since you always put things well for me..
> 
> Yr most obdt hmble srvt,
> Jenna




Jenna,

I agree with laziness. I also think that consumer approach to relationships is there.

Recently I heard some early 20's using a term I had not heard before. Expiration Dating. Those involved cannot see that there is an expiration just like the milk one buys, bout those all around them can see it that it is already going bad.

There is another term being used by Psychs and professional's here in the states. The Term is "Starter Marriage". Now this is fine if both think it is a starter marriage, but most often one person enters into the marriage knowing they will not have a child or wish not to have a child, and will divorce their partner before they are 30. This is for those who cannot afford to live alone and or need the appearance of being married at work to be able to be mroe upwardly mobile. 

In 2004 I read a couple of studies. Detroit Metro area or South East Michigan region and Pittsburg Pennsylvania had the highest ratio of women to men. Now being a single man, this would seem like the right place to be. Until further studies are reviewed. South East Michigan is the fattest region in the United States. (* A little weight or mass that is proportional is fine, but too much is not attractive to me. And no I am not a person who prefers the model look, as I think many need to gain a few pounds.  *) Another study had South East Michigan being in the top three for single women with more than two kids. And a great many of those were from multiple partners. And while an active partner is something that I would prefer, I have found it very difficult to deal with the "ex's", in particular if there is more than one, which makes it even more difficult to find a solution to a problem that may arise. Now add in that South East Michigan was also high (* I beleive top 10 *) in sexually transmitted diseases, and also high for drug usage, and that leaves one with a very small portion of the population that can fit what on paper looks like the person one would go for. (* I would say normal or average, but when the numbers are that most do drugs and have a disease then this is the average or the Norm or Normal.  *)

So, while I agree that I may be jaded by my experiences, and by those of my friends, (* Divorced as well, used for citizenship, a pay check for someone kids to get insurance, etcetera *) I still hold out that I may find someone I can get along with. 

The issue is that I am not perfect and I have some issues and hang ups. Those who would date me or get involved need to understand that, just as I understand that the person I would be involved with his their baggage and hang ups and needs special consideration in certain areas. Both sides needs to understand this and be willing to work with the other side. So the right woman who is willing to handle my issues may be a woman with multiple kids from different relationships. But since I have been burned really bad for money in the past, my hang ups are things that most women will not consider. The issue of a pre-nup, where every thing that is mine before the marriage stays mine and the same for her. All family heirlooms stay with the family if a break up occurs, and that everything accrued during the relationship is split 50/50. But most women do not wish to discuss this, for if I truly loved them then I would not be worried about such items. And they may be right, and I do not know.


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## jfarnsworth (Jul 19, 2006)

Jenna said:
			
		

> Hey Jason  yes I will drag you into the vortex.. ha! I will drag yous all down with me where I am going.. but hey these are all good observations and yet I think your insightful observations could equally apply to ANY relationship besides a one nighter.. dont you think? like here.. you said "The general public don't want to put in that much effort" and that is what I was saying to Rich that we are lazy and yet are these things not worth bothering over? Surely that is not the case. but the thing I wonder most about is the argument that marriages are not so good in comparison to just relationships because there is less of a chance to leave.. which must not be good for those in long term relationships to think the partner is not an advocate of marriage because they have actually given thought to leaving..
> 
> >>hey babes you are just the best thing that ever happened but let us not get hitched in case I change my mind..
> >>oooh darling that is such a reassuring thing to say to me.. but I am one step ahead and have packed my bag I am off with Jason the guy I met in my MA class..
> ...


You just, ah.... are keeping me from lurking in the shadows:jedi1: . My list of things could go on and on. My analogy about the car I was referring to my bicycle. I love to bike. My wifey does not like to go on the rides I do. I"m gone for too long. I say so. Then again, I'm supposedly at the studio too much. Ok, generally 1 day a week? I say so. I lift weights too much. Again, on my lunch hour that doesn't bother a living soul in my household. Again, I say so. Anyway, back to my bike. My gearing is a little off. It doesn't hit the gears like it should. I can't fix the stupid thing to shift exactly when it's supposed to. What if, now, just what if; I would have picked the exact same bike right beside it? Maybe I would have been much happier with it:idunno: . Same as relationships. I still think in marriages there is much more to deal with than only dating, or even a serious relationship. The divorce rate in the u.s. is high. For second marriages it's even higher. If there are kids involved ex's create a problem. Believe me, I know this to be true. I'm counting the day when I no longer have to speak to my ex-wife. She puts a strain on my current marriage like nothing else. Getting to hear both of them crab & complain on the same day....   I hope your getting my point. I say to only get married when you're old enough and wise enough to try and enjoy it. I actually know a couple of guys who are in their 50's that's never been married. They never wanted to. They like to hunt, fish, motorcycle, drink, travel and all sorts of stuff w/o having to ask permission to go here and there. Oh well.
Ok, I'm done again. 

At least for now.


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## Ceicei (Jul 19, 2006)

Marriage, at least for me, does not mean "begging for permission" from each other to do things we enjoy.  We do let each other know to coordinate our schedules and make sure the kids are taken care during our activities.

My husband loves ATVing/motorcycling, computer gaming with his friends, and bike riding.  These aren't my interests.  I love training in martial arts, caving, and customizing model cars.  These aren't his interests.  We don't keep track of how many times he does that and how many times I do that.  we support each other with these activities.  We have the understanding if we can do what we enjoy most, we will be happier within the marriage.  

There are many shared activities that we (as a family) all do.  We love camping, firearms shooting, boating/wave-running, and several other activities.  We do these together a lot.

What makes our marriage stronger are the rules we've always kept even before we got married:  1) We always say "I love you" when we leave each other for the day and again when we meet together.  2)  We do not ever call each other "bad names".  Criticism of each other's character does nothing to help the situation.  3) When we have disagreements, we talk about the specific problem.   4) If the problem is completely resolved, then it is over.  There is no need to dredge the same problem/issue all up again and again--totally unnecessary since it feeds and aggravates hostility.

These are the only four "iron-clad" rules we live by.  Our kids, however, do struggle with these because of their exposure to schoolyard and neighborhood relationships, so they are trying to develop and internalize these four rules.  The process is not as easy as it seems, since it does require communication skills. 

We take life day by day, realizing that the unexpected do happen, and try to work through the situations together as they come up.

- Ceicei


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 20, 2006)

Ceicei said:
			
		

> Marriage, at least for me, does not mean "begging for permission" from each other to do things we enjoy. We do let each other know to coordinate our schedules and make sure the kids are taken care during our activities.
> 
> My husband loves ATVing/motorcycling, computer gaming with his friends, and bike riding. These aren't my interests. I love training in martial arts, caving, and customizing model cars. These aren't his interests. We don't keep track of how many times he does that and how many times I do that. we support each other with these activities. We have the understanding if we can do what we enjoy most, we will be happier within the marriage.
> 
> ...




Sounds like you have good communication between you both, and are willing to address issues as they arise.  This is good. 

Thank you for showing a positive example.


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