# Kenpo Karambit Association



## kenpohands (Aug 8, 2003)

Hello,
I am proud to announce the formation of the Kenpo Karambit Association. The co-founders are myself and Steve Tarani. The concept behind the KKA is the ancient blade of Karambit meets the modern day concepts and principles of Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate.
I have merged my 30 years experience with Tarani's karambit applications and have developed a system that ANY kenpoist can addapt to. No major modifications needed to manuver the Karambit around within the Kenpo System. I will be forming classes in Glendora open to all Kenpoist all ranks.
Visit www.kenpokarambit.com for more information.
If you are interested in joining a class or the KKA contact me at kenpohands@excite.com
Salute
Angelo Collado


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## tarabos (Aug 8, 2003)

cool...very cool. i must admit i'm pretty intrigued. i'll have to read about your org on your site and get a little more information from it. 

any specifics of you organization that you'd like to post here? who/what was the inspiratioin behind all of it (besides the kerambit of course)? i'm interested in how this all came to be. 

forgive me if all of that info is on your website but i haven't had a chance to read, just got home from a wedding rehearsal dinner and i'm a bit exhausted...


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## True2Kenpo (Aug 9, 2003)

Fellow Kenpoists,

I just wanted to mention that the Karambit material seems very, very interesting and from the little bit I talked to Mr. Collado last weekend about it...  it is an awesome development!  

I hope everyone takes some time to check it out!  I know I will be.  Good journey to all.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh


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## Stick Dummy (Aug 10, 2003)

Hey Josh!!

Congrats for the big wins in Boston!!!! Awesome!

  Karambits will definately add some "new spin" to any form of Kenpo - techs or otherwise.  Just make sure you hold on tight and don't throw them at spectators. :rofl:

   I showed GD-7 & Farnsworth my leetle bitty custom Filipino style (spur blade) karambit and it looked like a folding nail trimmer in his paw err, hand.


  You coming down for the next seminar at Shepherd?? Maybe we can hide in a corner of the gym, and compare Karambit techs.


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## True2Kenpo (Aug 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> *Hey Josh!!
> 
> Congrats for the big wins in Boston!!!! Awesome!
> ...



Stick Dummy,

Thank you for the kind words!  It was definitely a great weekend! 

As for my Karambit techniques, I really just spoke with Mr. Collado about his Association and how the material related to the Kenpo System, so my knowledge of Karambit techniques are non-existant, but I hope to change that with time 

Anyway, I do hope to make the next seminar in W.V., look forward to seeing you there.

Hope all is well and good journey!

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer
UPK Pittsburgh
IKKA


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## kenpohands (Aug 10, 2003)

Accidents do happen, I have seen many in my time. So it if it is all in play thats fine and dandy. I can joke about things just as well as the other guy, BUT! If you are serious and would like to see the karambit and what it can do FIRST HAND! I will love to show you the REAL applications, not a form. I sure you will change your tune a bit. Just my thoughts!!
Sorry Josh, Some folks just don't get it!
Angelo Collado


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## Seig (Aug 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *Accidents do happen, I have seen many in my time. So it if it is all in play thats fine and dandy. I can joke about things just as well as the other guy, BUT! If you are serious and would like to see the karambit and what it can do FIRST HAND! I will love to show you the REAL applications, not a form. I sure you will change your tune a bit. Just my thoughts!!
> Sorry Josh, Some folks just don't get it!
> Angelo Collado *


First of all, the threat, which seems real and not implied, is against Martial Talk policy.  Please do not do it again.


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## kenpohands (Aug 12, 2003)

If you precieved this as a threat you are wrong. I only want to inform you on the PROPER use of the karambit. Throwing them at spectators is not  a use. It was an accident and thats all. Its not to be joked about. If you took this as a threat I am truely sorry. One who feels threatened by the defense of one owns art is not well educated in the arts to even mess with. I mearly offered to share my knowledge with you, but you perceive it as a threat!! Thats your loss.
AC


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## Seig (Aug 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *If you precieved this as a threat you are wrong. I only want to inform you on the PROPER use of the karambit. Throwing them at spectators is not  a use. It was an accident and thats all. Its not to be joked about. If you took this as a threat I am truely sorry. One who feels threatened by the defense of one owns art is not well educated in the arts to even mess with. I mearly offered to share my knowledge with you, but you perceive it as a threat!! Thats your loss.
> AC *


Yes, I perceived it as a threat.  You state I was and am wrong.  I can accept that.  I appreciate that you want to share your experiences with the karambit, and maybe someday, we will get an opportunity to compare notes on what you are learning/teaching versus what Stick Dummy has been learning/teaching.  I saw the accident, I was there.  It was unfortunate, but fortunately, no one was seriously injured.  Had someone been injured, I can assure you, no joke would have been made.  I did not perceive a threat to myself, I perceived a threat made to another board member.  In the past, that has been a serious issue here.   Apparently, he and I were the only ones to perceive such, so the issue is now a dead horse :deadhorse:.





> One who feels threatened by the defense of one owns art is not well educated in the arts to even mess with.


 I'm sorry, I just don't understand the point you are trying to make here.
I look forward to clearer and calmer communications between us in the future.
Good Journey.


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 14, 2003)

Come on Angelo.......



> _Originally posted by kenpohands _*
> Accidents do happen, I have seen many in my time. Angelo Collado *



Yes, in fact they do (I have witnessed several myself and even disqualified some for lack of control)..... which is why you have an extreme responsibility to keep your weapon under control.  Also, live blades should not be used (so the rules state) in the event that an "accident" does in fact happen so that no one either the competitor or other people get injured.



> _Originally posted by kenpohands _*
> So it if it is all in play that's fine and dandy. I can joke about things just as well as the other guy, BUT!
> Angelo Collado *



I believe you are a bit touchy about this Angelo... that surprises me..... if you noticed there was a little smiley there .... which usually means a joke.

However.........



> _Originally posted by kenpohands _*
> If you are serious and would like to see the karambit and what it can do FIRST HAND! I will love to show you the REAL applications, not a form. I sure you will change your tune a bit. Just my thoughts!!
> Angelo Collado *



Hmmmmmmmmm seems like much more than your thoughts.  I think "YOU" are taking this a little too personal.  Not characteristic of you.  Geeze you imply that you want to show REAL applications not form..... a threat?  You want to show him how "Deadly You" are with this thing?  A bit arrogant I think, do you know anything about Stick Dummy and just what HE knows or can do with this thing?  Either way, this is probably just another case of one person mis-understanding the meaning of a post due to the lack of emotion and feeling that forums do not have.  Personally, knowing both of you, I think you both would enjoy each other in a professional exchange of martial arts knowledge, skill, and enjoyment with a common goal in mind.  Let's not let a small thing like this get out of hand with 2 skilled and respected Black Belts such as yourselves.



> _Originally posted by kenpohands _*
> Sorry Josh, Some folks just don't get it!
> Angelo Collado *



Was that really necessary......  This is what I was talking about.  Fuel on the fire rather than finding out first hand either thru email or calling the person and determining exactly what the problem is or was.   

come on guys.... shake hands   
:cheers: 

:asian:


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## kenpohands (Aug 14, 2003)

I admit it this was a bit out of character for me. You are correct and I stand up and apologize for my reply to "Stick Dummy" I guess I had heard one too many jokes about my mishap for the day and my emotions got the best of me. I NEVER meant it as a threat. There are so many folks out there who don't believe in the applications of a karambit until they experience it first hand. No threat intended. For all I know Stick Dummy may be able to teach me a few things. All in all it was blown out of proportion.

 As far as being arrogant you know I am not, it's more like confident in my skills. As you know I am not an arrogant Blackbelt. But I was raised the old school way---on the mat! If you got something to say, say it on the mat is what I was taught. You remember the old Pasadena Days, you were there! Too many talk the talk these days and can't walk the walk. More stripes and more definitions is all they can show us. You know me Mr. Conatser. I am a serious student and teacher.  I am not hard to get along with. I never attack people verbally on any forums. I was just a little sensitive on this one!

It was great seeing you in Boston. I was glad to see you sitting there on the panel for the Kenpo Forms Division. I was looking for you later and you were gone. Keep in touch Sir and thanks for keeping us crazy "hotheads" in check.
Respectfully
Angelo Collado


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## Stick Dummy (Aug 14, 2003)

Geezey Peezey did I start at Sh$%^Storm.......


 Sorry folks, I didn't mean any slams on abilities, I've BTDT with weapons, FORTUNATELY I have not yet hurt myself or another during a tourney, ergo the "web handle".

  One of the schools were I train at has an exclusive branch called "Club ER" of which I am a charter member, and will leave to up your imagination as far as how you get a pretty tee-shirt

  I've seen a few live blade tourney accidents, kamas, swords, balisongs, etc. etc. and none were pretty. The arterial spray patterns on a nice white Gi are quite intreguiging though.

  As far as belts and rank, I don't wear stripes, and have to be forced at gunpoint, or under EXTREME physical duress to put on anything above plain old white...........

  Angelo- I'm sure if you ever get out to this area, or me to LA after some floor fun, exchange of knowledge, and a good Kenpo style feed things would be pretty well ironed out. :asian: 

ofta work again


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## Goldendragon7 (Aug 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _*
> I admit it this was a bit out of character for me. You are correct and I stand up and apologize for my reply to "Stick Dummy" I guess I had heard one too many jokes about my mishap for the day and my emotions got the best of me. I NEVER meant it as a threat. There are so many folks out there who don't believe in the applications of a karambit until they experience it first hand. No threat intended. For all I know Stick Dummy may be able to teach me a few things. All in all it was blown out of proportion.
> 
> As far as being arrogant you know I am not, it's more like confident in my skills. As you know I am not an arrogant Blackbelt. But I was raised the old school way---on the mat! If you got something to say, say it on the mat is what I was taught. You remember the old Pasadena Days, you were there! Too many talk the talk these days and can't walk the walk. More stripes and more definitions is all they can show us. You know me Mr. Conatser. I am a serious student and teacher.  I am not hard to get along with. I never attack people verbally on any forums. I was just a little sensitive on this one!
> ...



LOL, as I expected.......  a huge misunderstanding.   I know both of you will have a blast working out together with this little toy thingy........ the Karambit.   

Stick Dummy has been studying several years with the Instructor that also taught Danny Inosanto this little joy.  So he is quite versed with its usage and unique applications.

I don't know enough about this "Raptor Claw" to say  whether I like it or not yet ........ but it sure looks cool and If I had one in my hands I'm sure there would be a lot of blood around....... the opponents and possibly even mine....... :rofl: 

Thanks for your return response and continual good attitude.

:asian: 

ps.  thank you for the kind words about being in Boston.   It was fun watching you guys (as usual) there was some good talent there, unlike the last time you and I sat on a panel in Long Beach!

Keep working hard and spread the Kenpo Germ........


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## Bill Lear (Aug 14, 2003)

Angelo's throwing Karambits at people? Say it ain't so brother... :anic:


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## kenpohands (Aug 14, 2003)

Where the hell you been hiding Billy? Hell I show you a few cool inserts and you you drop off the face of the earth. I see how it is. Keep in touch brother! 
P.s. What is the significance of the Image on your post????


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## ikenpo (Aug 14, 2003)

> *Steve Tarani and I structured and formalized a Kenpo Karambit curriculum *



Mr. Collado,

I noticed this quote from your website and was wondering if you followed the WOK in the development of the curriculum or was it a mix of Indonesian applications with Kenpo applications? Were any of Mr. Tarani's combatives applications worked into the curriclum? How is it structured? How many techniques exist? Do they act as an add on to a "base system" or stand on their own as a true system? If the Kerambit is removed do you still apply the techiques in the same way (with the Kerambit influence) or revert to standard EPAK?

What do you see as the main differences in regards to say your views (or mentality) towards Kenpo Knife vs Kenpo Kerambit?

Just curious, 



jb :asian:


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## Bill Lear (Aug 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *Where the hell you been hiding Billy? Hell I show you a few cool inserts and you you drop off the face of the earth. I see how it is. Keep in touch brother!
> P.s. What is the significance of the Image on your post???? *



I've been working things out with my wife and moving her back in... I haven't forgotten those inserts... I actually used them in the technique line at the Homecoming Camp and at the studio the other night. You tell me which image and I will explain.  

Oh yeah... why weren't you at the Homecoming?

:asian:


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## kenpohands (Aug 16, 2003)

First off, the karambit is not a new weapon. It has been around for hundreds of years. Second, Kenpo karambit is NOT a stand-alone system. It piggybacks on both EPAK and Pekiti Tirsia.  The kenpoist can easily adapt to the Kenpo Karambit. Kenpo Karambit was designed to incorporate the techniques, concepts and principles of EPAK and utilize the movement patterns within the techniques. All this done in combination with the applications on Steve Taranis Karambit experience and expertise. All the attacks used within our technique structure have been chanced to weapon attacks instead of empty hand attacks. For example,Five swords in now against a slashing knife attack as opposed to a right hook punch. We have incorporated many of Taranis tactical and combative techniques taught to Military, Law Enforcement and Special government agencies. Most techniques now incorporate disarms. The outcome is a kenpo technique executed with Karambit weapons application againdts armed attacks. The smoothness and rhythm of the  Kenpo techniques are not slowed down nor is the timing much different.  You can apply all the techniques both with a karambit or emty hand as you originally learned them.  ANY kenpoist can pick up Kenpo Karambit and within one 3 hour seminar be funtional and proficient with the Karambit. Once the basic operation and application of the karambit is learned the possibilities are endless.
Our curriculum is as follows:

LEVEL I 
History
Basics
-stances
-positions
-grips
-terminology
-principles of knife fighting
JURU #1 (KATA)

LEVEL II 
Drills
Basic application of the weapon
Techniques 1-10 (parallel EPAK yellow-orange)
JURU #2

COLOR=red]LEVEL III[/COLOR] 
Intermediate applications
Techniques 10-20 (Purple Blue)
JURU #3


[LEVEL IV 
Advanced applications/takedowns/locks
Techniques 20-30(Green Brown)
Begin PICHAHAN(EPAK Phase III)
JURU #4

LEVEL V INSTRUCTORSHIP 
Free Form
Combat
PICHAHAN
JURU #5

If anyone is interested in a seminar to introduce the Kenpo Karambit to your school curriculum  and become part of our training group.
Contact me at 
kenpohands@excite.com


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## ikenpo (Aug 16, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *First off, the karambit is not a new weapon. It has been around for hundreds of years. *



Right, I've trained with the Kerambit before..There are actually other Kenpo practicioners that have explored aspects of this weapon in years past with other Kuntao/Silat instructors and already have it incorporated into their curriculum. 




> *Second, Kenpo karambit is NOT a stand-alone system. It piggybacks on both EPAK and Pekiti Tirsia. *



Now that was my question. So without the weapon you're back to standard EPAK or Pekiti Tirsia. It is a prefix/suffix, sour cream on the potato sort of thing, but not the potato. (everybody know potatos taste better with sour cream)



> *All the attacks used within our technique structure have been chanced to weapon attacks instead of empty hand attacks.*



Is this for moral reasons? I noticed Tarani also uses the trainer as a restraining/contact control tool. Is that level IV takedowns & locks?



> * We have incorporated many of Taranis tactical and combative techniques taught to Military, Law Enforcement and Special government agencies.*



Did you find that difficult to do while maintaining our principles of logic? I notice you went with the Jura title for your forms. Are they basically made up of the techniques within that level? 



> * Once the basic operation and application of the karambit is learned the possibilities are endless.*



Agreed, what would you consider to be your greatest personal insight gained from training with this weapon?



> * Our curriculum is as follows:
> *



Thank you for the insight. It is interested to see how someone else has incorporated the concepts. Realizing that if caught using an actual Kerambit in California or Texas that you'd be thrown under the jail (double edged blade), do you give any consideration to training with hard plastic trainers like Worden's Impact Kerambit? 

Regards and again thanks for the insight, jb :asian:


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## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2003)

> It is a prefix/suffix, sour cream on the potato sort of thing, but not the potato. (everybody know potatos taste better with sour cream)



Not exactly! The Karambit training will stand alone against emty hand and weapon attacks. It is a potato in it own right, The kenpo Karambit is the use of the Karambit within the kenpo system. Thus a Potato(kenpo) plus sour cream(karambit)! Its all how you look at it!



> Is this for moral reasons? I noticed Tarani also uses the trainer as a restraining/contact control tool. Is that level IV takedowns & locks?



 No moral issues here. It can also be used against emty hand attacks as well. (trainers)
Thats all in  the Tarani karambit system. I too train that way as well, My students  also learn the karambit as a control device. That IS not part of the Kenpo Karambit. It is Tarani's Karambit training which we do as well.



> It is interested to see how someone else has incorporated the concepts. Realizing that if caught using an actual Kerambit in California or Texas that you'd be thrown under the jail (double edged blade), do you give any consideration to training with hard plastic trainers like Worden's Impact Kerambit?




Why? We don't carry double edged karambits. The folders are all single edged karambits and are as legal as a common folder!  Nothing illegal about it. THe trainers work well in the Kenpo Karambit applications and are 100% legal. Lots of pain and NO blood! I would not carry a double edge karambit That I know would be grey area!! We do have our own plastic trainers as well and us them all the time! Most of my female students carry them all the time.

Thanks for the great conversation,
Salute
Angelo Collado


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## Kirk (Aug 17, 2003)

How much can you teach in one kenpo seminar?


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## M F (Aug 17, 2003)

Kirk,
This is the impression I get from talking to Mr. Collado and a few others who have seen these applications in person.  The Kenpo Karambit program uses Kenpo technique movements, only with this unique weapon inserted into the mix.  I think what you would learn in a seminar would be how to effectively insert the karambit into the Kenpo movements that you already know.  So, you wouldn't need to learn anything new, motion wise, in order to use this weapon.  This is all from conversations I've had with a few individuals, and not from first hand experience, so Mr. Collado, please correct me if I'm off base here.


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## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2003)

It depends on 
1. Student level
2. Experience
3. Time factor
Usually a 3 hr seminar will cover the basic karambit handling applications. An 8 hr will get you into basic applications and theory!
AC


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## Bill Lear (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *Why? We don't carry double edged karambits. The folders are all single edged karambits and are as legal as a common folder!  Nothing illegal about it. THe trainers work well in the Kenpo Karambit applications and are 100% legal. Lots of pain and NO blood! I would not carry a double edge karambit That I know would be grey area!! We do have our own plastic trainers as well and us them all the time! Most of my female students carry them all the time.
> 
> Thanks for the great conversation,
> ...



PENAL CODE SECTION 12020-12040
12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year or in the state prison:
(1) Manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives, lends, or possesses any cane gun or wallet gun, any undetectable firearm, any firearm which is not immediately recognizable as a firearm, any camouflaging firearm container, any ammunition which contains or consists of any flechette dart, any bullet containing or carrying an explosive agent, any ballistic knife, any multiburst trigger activator, any nunchaku, any short-barreled shotgun, any short-barreled rifle, any metal knuckles, any belt buckle knife, any leaded cane, any zip gun, any shuriken, any unconventional pistol, any lipstick case knife, any cane sword, any shobi-zue, any air gauge knife, any writing pen knife, any metal military practice handgrenade or metal replica handgrenade, or any instrument or weapon of the kind commonly known as a blackjack, slungshot, billy, sandclub, sap, or sandbag.
653k. Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the public, carries upon his or her person, and every person who sells, offers for sale, exposes for sale, loans, transfers, or gives to any other person a switchblade knife having a blade two or more inches in length is guilty of a misdemeanor.
171.5. c.2 Any knife with a blade length in excess of four inches, the blade of which is fixed in an unguarded position by the use of one or two hands. 
Penal Code Section 12020 & Section 653k
*Anything capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon is illegal. All concealed knives are a felony (except non locking folders).*


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## Big Pat (Aug 17, 2003)

The Cold Steel catalogs have always listed what knives are legal to carry concealed in California. The CRPA [Calif. Rifle and Pistol Assoc.] has information on the types of knives that are Calif. legal. I carry a 4 inch folder [Cold Steel Simitar] with a liner lock at all times. The Karambit looks like an intersting weapon. The latest issue of Tractical Knives {Vol.9 #6 Nov.03} has on article on 11 First-Rate instructors-"At the Head of the Class" that includes Mr. Trarani but the Karambit is not mentioned in the article. 

EKP RIP
Big Pat


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *Hello,
> I am proud to announce the formation of the Kenpo Karambit Association. The co-founders are myself and Steve Tarani. The concept behind the KKA is the ancient blade of Karambit meets the modern day concepts and principles of Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate.
> I have merged my 30 years experience with Tarani's karambit applications and have developed a system that ANY kenpoist can addapt to. No major modifications needed to manuver the Karambit around within the Kenpo System. I will be forming classes in Glendora open to all Kenpoist all ranks.
> ...


*

Hi Folks!
Angelo! Congratulations on the creation of the KKA [yet another anacronym on the "seasame street of Kenpo related groups" LOL!
Seriously, I've used the Kerambit/karambit since 1985 and I've had the pleasure of working with several different filipino and indonesian martial arts instructors on the use of the kerambit. I  used the Tripoz "Raptor" kerambit/karambit originally in the chrome then the black teflon covered versions. There are different individuals who have used the kerambit/karambit to enhance their art [Art Gitlin and hak lung chuan for example]. I had the pleasure of watching Mr. Collado's form as he prepared to compete at the IKC in Boston and it was a joy to behold he blending of the EPAKK and silat concepts as well as never before seen 2 kerambit use [you have to see it to truly apprecate it!]
Due to Angello's performance and detailing out his aspects on the Kenpo Kerambit,I've decided to join the KKA and endorse Mr. Collado in his ventures as well as encourage students to learn how to use this wonderful tool.
Please take the time to inquire about the use of the kerambit and it's application to kenpo!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE*


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Stick Dummy _
> *
> 
> Karambits will definately add some "new spin" to any form of Kenpo - techs or otherwise.  Just make sure you hold on tight and don't throw them at spectators. :rofl:*


* 

Hi Stick Dummy!
I was at the IKC and i'm sorry that I didn't get to meet you [or did I?] It was unfortunate what happened during angelo's form [i was glad to see in it's entirety before he competed, however] and thankfully it went to an area that there was no one around, actually one of my students retrieved the karambit for Angello and all was well. 




			I showed GD-7 & Farnsworth my leetle bitty custom Filipino style (spur blade) karambit and it looked like a folding nail trimmer in his paw err, hand.]
		
Click to expand...


I would love to see that design as I'm am avid weapons collector and instructor and i'm always looking for a new "favorite weapon"





			You coming down for the next seminar at Shepherd?? Maybe we can hide in a corner of the gym, and compare Karambit techs.
		
Click to expand...

*
I wish we had met at the IKC, I brought a "bag of kerambits" of different designs to discuss the weapon and art in more detail...we would have had a great time! Angello and I did just that when he visited Boston for the event!
Hope to meet you sometime!
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> *Hi Stick Dummy!
> I was at the IKC and i'm sorry that I didn't get to meet you [or did I?] It was unfortunate what happened during angelo's form [i was glad to see in it's entirety before he competed, however] and thankfully it went to an area that there was no one around, actually one of my students retrieved the karambit for Angello and all was well.
> 
> ...



You mean the judges actually let people do forms with live weapons, that's a first I've heard of?   

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *First of all, the threat, which seems real and not implied, is against Martial Talk policy.  Please do not do it again. *



Hi Seig!
It was a pleasure to finally meet you,Tess, and your students at the IKC! I'm sure that no malice was intended by Mr. Collado's statements,rather a sincere willingness to exchange infornation and "share the wealth" as it were!
We always suffer with a medium that is hackled by not being able to convey intonation and "the spirit" of the post.
BTW, while we are on a weapons topic, I saw one of your students [I believe] with Katana performing iaijutsu/iaido kata, was that your guy?
 BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> [653k
> *Anything capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon is illegal. All concealed knives are a felony (except non locking folders).* [/B]




By the way the Karambit folders are designed it is not possible to directly stab a target, As you would be able to with a  regular knife or a shank. Different mechanics would have to be used in order to do this. You would be performing a movement that is not defined as illegal.  You do however must not have it concealed. It must be worn with part of the ring visible and with the clip showing.  Steve Tarani spent many hours and $ doing the research for the Folder design. His folders are legal, Remember Steve Tarani works with and trains all the people who write the penal codes in Washington. From FBI, CIA, DEA and hundreds of State ant local police departments. In many of the karambit classes There are nothing but Police there. I was in Ft Myers Florida and did a class with the head of the Police traning division. They fell in love with the folder.
It is legal. If you get in trouble with it it is probably because your doing something wrong with it, or the officer does not know the penal code well.  I always carry the entire code in my car at all times as a reference.
AC


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## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by M F _
> *Kirk,
> This is the impression I get from talking to Mr. Collado and a few others who have seen these applications in person.  The Kenpo Karambit program uses Kenpo technique movements, only with this unique weapon inserted into the mix.  I think what you would learn in a seminar would be how to effectively insert the karambit into the Kenpo movements that you already know.  So, you wouldn't need to learn anything new, motion wise, in order to use this weapon.  This is all from conversations I've had with a few individuals, and not from first hand experience, so Mr. Collado, please correct me if I'm off base here. *





You are correct in the understanding of what the Kenpo Karambit is. I also train with the Tarani system, but this is a different application all together. Tarani Karambit and Kenpo Karambit are not the same thing! Kenpo Karambit is geared for the kenpoist(martial artist) Tarani was a major part of the structure and design if the Kenpo Karambit.  Most of the Hardcore guys Tarani works with are not all in a structured traditional Martial Arts disipline. They only do tactical combat training. That is thier Martial art!
AC


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## kenpohands (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *You mean the judges actually let people do forms with live weapons, that's a first I've heard of?
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



For some reason folks thought that they were live blades. Hell I am not that crazy. I get cut up enough training with live blades. They were the aluminum trainers. They look real sharp but are dull all the way around. Bob Liles inspected the trainers all was cool .
AC


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## ProfessorKenpo (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *For some reason folks thought that they were live blades. Hell I am not that crazy. I get cut up enough training with live blades. They were the aluminum trainers. They look real sharp but are dull all the way around. Bob Liles inspected the trainers all was cool .
> AC *



Glad to hear it, thought things were getting silly on the East Coast LOL.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *You mean the judges actually let people do forms with live weapons, that's a first I've heard of?
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Hi Clyde!
To answer your question, the kerambits were not sharp,rather a aluminum training kerambit.
Hope that I was of some service,
KENPOJOE


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## KENPOJOE (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Seig _
> *Yes, I perceived it as a threat.  You state I was and am wrong.  I can accept that.  I appreciate that you want to share your experiences with the karambit, and maybe someday, we will get an opportunity to compare notes on what you are learning/teaching versus what Stick Dummy has been learning/teaching.  I saw the accident, I was there.  It was unfortunate, but fortunately, no one was seriously injured.  Had someone been injured, I can assure you, no joke would have been made.  I did not perceive a threat to myself, I perceived a threat made to another board member.  In the past, that has been a serious issue here.   Apparently, he and I were the only ones to perceive such, so the issue is now a dead horse :deadhorse:. Good Journey. *



Hi Seig,
Didn't see this response when I wrote mine! Maybe I was beating Mr. Ed because he talks in his sleep! :rofl: 
NOTE: THAT WAS A JOKE AND NO MALICIOUS INTENT WAS INTENDED! 
BEGOOD,
KENPOJOE


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## Michael Billings (Aug 17, 2003)

Jason & other Texas Martial kinda guys:  With the exception of San Antonio, who have a Municipal Ordinance against carrying locking folders, the penal code in Texas defines an Illegal Knife as:



> (6)* "Illegal knife"* means a:
> (A) knife with a blade over five and one-half inches;
> (B) hand instrument designed to cut or stab another by being thrown;
> (C) dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;
> ...



The Penal Code in Texas also defines "Knife" as:



> (7) "Knife" means any bladed hand instrument that is capable of inflicting serious bodily injury or death by cutting or stabbing a person with the instrument.



This is defined, not because they are illegal, but to have a legal definition of a weapon if used in an illegal way.  I know this is somewhat confusing, but just because it is defined as a knife, does not make it an "Illegal Knife".  It is no big surprise that California is more restrictive in it's definition of "Illegal" knives.

Check your State's statutes, usually a search on Google will get you the Penal Code.  Then search for "Definitions - Weapons" within the Statutes.  Better safe than sorry.

-MB


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 17, 2003)

I looked up the Texas penal code, since that was the one being discussed, and I saw nothing about the posession of a double edged knife.  Does this mean that Texas allows the carry of double edged blades?  

Is there any one in Texas or California Law Enforcement on the board that would care to comment?

I'll see if I cant find the California law next.  Interesting Point M. Billings thanks for bringing it to everyone's attention.


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## Bill Lear (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *By the way the Karambit folders are designed it is not possible to directly stab a target, As you would be able to with a  regular knife or a shank. Different mechanics would have to be used in order to do this. You would be performing a movement that is not defined as illegal.  You do however must not have it concealed. It must be worn with part of the ring visible and with the clip showing.  Steve Tarani spent many hours and $ doing the research for the Folder design. His folders are legal, Remember Steve Tarani works with and trains all the people who write the penal codes in Washington. From FBI, CIA, DEA and hundreds of State ant local police departments. In many of the karambit classes There are nothing but Police there. I was in Ft Myers Florida and did a class with the head of the Police traning division. They fell in love with the folder.
> It is legal. If you get in trouble with it it is probably because your doing something wrong with it, or the officer does not know the penal code well.  I always carry the entire code in my car at all times as a reference.
> AC *



Brother,

It just seems to me that the law is not very clear, and that anyone can get "busted" for carrying any kind of knife as long as the cop wants to be a jerk about it... Then it's your word against his, and the legal bills aren't worth the trouble in my book.

Just a thought,
Billy :asian:


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## arnisador (Aug 17, 2003)

From this thread:

Knife Laws by State

My understanding has been the same as Mr. Lear's--a police officer has wide discretion and there are many issues of interpretation.


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## ikenpo (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Jason & other Texas Martial kinda guys:  With the exception of San Antonio, who have a Municipal Ordinance against carrying locking folders, the penal code in Texas defines an Illegal Knife as:
> 
> The Penal Code in Texas also defines "Knife" as:
> ...



Cool,

But I wonder how they define "dagger". A short weapon used for stabbing, like Websters? If so then the Kerambit would "roughly" fall within those parameters depending on your level of training with it. Other than that I would wonder about intent. The Kerambit is nothing short of a weapon of unlimited destruction used to "strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger" to bring a little pulp fiction into the mix:ubercool:.  A blade can be talked up as a box cutter or something you use for work. Every kicker down here in truck town has one. But put a Kerambit in front of a judge and he's gonna say "Box cutter my a**...". It seems to me that the law is set, but has the capacity to be fluid when people get creative and try to ride the line on what has been put in writing. Just my opinion. Mr. B, if I ever get a chance to come up to your place I'll bring a couple so we can check them out.

jb:asian:


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 17, 2003)

> California Penal Code
> 
> 653k.  Every person who possesses in the passenger's or driver's
> area of any motor vehicle in any public place or place open to the
> ...



This was all I saw, well this and something about a blade launcher.  Does anyone else know the California knife or gun laws?  Can you provide a link, please?

EDIT:  Oops, looks like everyone was posting while I was looking this up.  Thanks for the link Arnisador


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Aug 17, 2003)

According to 12020 of the California Penal Code, anything that you could stab someone with is considered a knife, up and including Sharpened #2 Pencils, ChopSticks, etc.

Yikes I'm glad I don't live in Cali.


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## M F (Aug 17, 2003)

Luckily, I live in a state without specific laws regulating knife carry.  Knives are, for the most part, considered tools by law enforcement, at least in rural Southern Utah.  I work in the local county jail, and I have booked numerous people, on various charges, who had balisongs and automatic (switchblade) knives on their person.  The only ones charged with possession of dangerous weapons have been those with violent criminal charges.  Technically, knives fall under our dangerous weapons statute, but it seems that our local law enforcement are gifted with an extraordinary amount of common sense.  Something not so common these days.


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## Michael Billings (Aug 17, 2003)

> ... dagger, including but not limited to a dirk, stilletto, and poniard;



This includes half sharpened blades along the back of the blade.

They are illegal in Texas.  Most throwing knives also fall in this catagory, and are specifically mentioned anyway.

A blade designed for thrusting specifically is a weapon as v. a tool.  That is why you have "dirk, stilletto, and poniard."  If you look for specific definitions of these blades you see they are intended for thrusting.  A Poiniard can theoretically be triangular in shape and was used to pierce chinks in medivial armor to administer a coup d' grace.

I wonder if sai's fall into a poiniard catagory, even if this was not thier function?  Hmm....


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## cdhall (Aug 17, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> *Then it's your word against his, and the legal bills aren't worth the trouble in my book.
> Just a thought,
> Billy :asian: *



Excellent points Mr. Lear.

However, FYI everyone I offer a program (I'm an agent for a company, it is not just me doing this) which for about $17/mo allows you to contact your attorney if you are being detained by the police.  Even at 3am.

This could limit your legal bills and your hassle to $17/mo.  Just a thought.  I won't post more info, anyone may contact me if they are interested.
:soapbox:


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## Seig (Aug 18, 2003)

> _Originally posted by KENPOJOE _
> *Hi Seig!
> It was a pleasure to finally meet you,Tess, and your students at the IKC! I'm sure that no malice was intended by Mr. Collado's statements,rather a sincere willingness to exchange infornation and "share the wealth" as it were!
> We always suffer with a medium that is hackled by not being able to convey intonation and "the spirit" of the post.
> ...


The gentleman with the katana is a friend of mine that routinely works out at my school.  He also journeyed with us to the IKC.  However, he is not m student.  He is a good friend that is a balck belt in Shorin-Ryu under Pete Jorgenson.


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## Kroy (Sep 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenpohands _
> *Hello,
> I am proud to announce the formation of the Kenpo Karambit Association. The co-founders are myself and Steve Tarani. The concept behind the KKA is the ancient blade of Karambit meets the modern day concepts and principles of Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate.
> I have merged my 30 years experience with Tarani's karambit applications and have developed a system that ANY kenpoist can addapt to. No major modifications needed to manuver the Karambit around within the Kenpo System. I will be forming classes in Glendora open to all Kenpoist all ranks.
> ...



Great web site and I love the patch.


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