# Is (any) alcohol drinking a sin?



## Carol

I've been in a few small Christian churches in the American south and met congregation that had a view of alcohol that was as absolute as my own scriptures.  No alcohol is permitted.  The Holy Communion is consecrated grape juice instead of consecrated wine.  One of my cousins goes to such a church.

We had the following conversation earlier today

Cousin:  "Have a great time, hope you won't drink and drive"

Me: "Nah, I largely don't drink."

Cousin:  "Oh that's good. We think its as sin"

Now......excessive drinking, drunkenness, some sort of alcohol-related gluttony....I can see that as being a sin in the Christian church.   

However, it was harder for me to grasp how any drinking is a sin to a Christian, given that Jesus is seen serving wine at Cana and at the Last Supper.  It's not that I think such a stance is wrong....I just don't quite understand it yet.

On the other hand...

My faith forbids alcohol completely.  Usually around this time of year, I see someone asking online "Can't we have a glass of Champagne at New Years?"  The answer has always come back.....no.  Drinking takes one away from remembering God, therefore it can't be permitted.  

I agree with the rule.  In the context of the scriptures, and spirit of my faith, the reasoning is sound.  I'll admit that whiule I largely don't drink, I cannot say that I NEVER drink.  But, I don't think the rule should be changed because of my own personal non-compliance.

What about your path?  Is a bit of responsible holiday cheer permitted?  Or forbidden?


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## bydand

Permitted.  AS long as it isn't excessive or beyond the bounds of applicable laws.   With that being said, most people in the church do not drink.  I do somewhat now, a few years ago I would have crossed the "excessive" line many, many times in the course of a year  .  My Father is a minister and he never had a problem with people who had a bit to drink and could never point out "book, chapter, and verse" where it was wrong to do so in moderation.  He never drank himself, and neither does my Mother, so we kids would never think of having a drink in front of them even now (the "baby" of us 4 kids just turned 36), just because of their feelings and our respect for them.


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## MA-Caver

I don't think the consumption of alcohol itself is a sin... didn't Jesus turn water into wine for a party? But the actions caused by inebriation (not being drunk itself) can be sinful, depending upon what those actions are. 
Drinking can LEAD to sin because one's inhibitions-self control are lowered dramatically when drunk and thus it's alot easier to uhh, forget one's self.


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## Ray

Carol Kaur said:


> My faith forbids alcohol completely.


Where there is no law given, there is no transgression (Romans 4:15, paraphrased). 

I have complete faith that alcohol does me no good...so I don't drink.  I understand that several religions forbid alcohol,  I belong to one of them.  

Of course, others who can drink responsibly should be under no compunction to cease drinking.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Carol Kaur said:


> ...Drinking takes one away from remembering God, therefore it can't be permitted...


 
There is a story I love about a Priest in a Temple of Shiva, visited by a vagabond wanderer. The wanderer comes into the temple, and sits...with his feet propped up on the Shivalinga -- a large egg-shaped rock, sacred to the religion as holy imagery, similar to the sacredness of the crucifix in a church.

The Priest scolds the vagabond for this act, saying, "God is there, in that rock. Remove your feet from there at once!". The vagabond obeys, and as he begins to set his feet down, another Shivalinga appears beneath them to support them. He moves his feet again, and again a third linga appears to prop up the wanderers feet. The Priest is aghast. The Wanderer says, "As soon as you can show me some place where God is not, I will gladly place my feet there." 

The Priest lowered his head in greetings and deference to the Mahaguru in disguise, and thanked him for this lesson.

All things, even though we do not understand how or why, are part of creation, and the divine plan of it. There is no where you can go -- in place, deed, or mind -- that the Divine is not. One can't unremember God, for all thoughts are infused with, and a reflection of, the Divine...as it expresses itself by moving through us, and in us.

So my question would be...is it a sin of commission (the act of drinking), or ommission (losing sight of that which cannot be lost)? 

Regards,

D.


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## Kacey

I don't believe drinking alcohol is a sin, per se; however, I do think that doing anything to excess - that is, to the point it makes you sick or has a negative effect on other people (eating, drinking alcohol, exercise, weight loss, gossip, etc.) is immoral - that is, sinful by most definitions.  The trick is determining what is harmful, and therefore excessive.


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## CoryKS

It's a sin.  Unless you're at a gay wedding.  Then it's okay.


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## bushidomartialarts

not drinking alcohol is a sin.  may the beer god strike you down from on high.

really, though.  isn't fully enjoying the good of this world a celebration of god's works?  drinking to self-destructiveness or the harm of others is bad, but that's really the sin of irresponsibility, not of consuming mind-altering substances.


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## mrhnau

Not a sin. I don't see it being a sin anywhere in the bible. However, I do see drinking in excess as a sin. Same thing with alot of things. I don't see eating food being sinful, but eating it in excess can be (gluttony). People don't talk about that one too much though it seems...



> Drinking can LEAD to sin because one's inhibitions-self control are lowered dramatically when drunk and thus it's alot easier to uhh, forget one's self.


Great point. For some people, a glass of wine can be enough to lower inhibitions. I guess its a matter of  understanding your body.

I think people that have had issues with alcohol may want to think hard before drinking. Were you an alcoholic? Then its probably not wise to drink at all. Have a family history of drunkards? then you might want to think hard before that second glass.

Personally, I don't drink. I can't stand the taste of it though. Don't like carbonated drinks either though (coke, pepsi, etc). I think its just me


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## Drac

bushidomartialarts said:


> not drinking alcohol is a sin. may the beer god strike you down from on high.


 
We must attend the same church..


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## someguy

Simply stated for christians Jesus made water into wine ([FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29 I belive)[/FONT].    That would tend to mean alcohol isn't a sin.  The excess of alcohol is probably what most biblical passages warning about alcohol is about.  After all how much dumb stuff does a person do after way to many drinks.  It is hard to avoid sin when drinking.  That said I occasionally drink to excess I must admit.


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## Drac

someguy said:


> That said I occasionally drink to excess I must admit.


 
When I was you age that all we did, that and try to find females that also drank to excess...


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## Bigshadow

someguy said:


> Simply stated for christians Jesus made water into wine ([FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]John 2:1-11; Matthew 26:29 I belive)[/FONT].    That would tend to mean alcohol isn't a sin.  The excess of alcohol is probably what most biblical passages warning about alcohol is about.  After all how much dumb stuff does a person do after way to many drinks.  It is hard to avoid sin when drinking.  That said I occasionally drink to excess I must admit.



I am not sure but maybe they think it is a sin due to Leviticus 10:9



> Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:


I do not follow christianity, but that might be where they get it from. :idunno:

Well, I will have my wine, thank you


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## Xue Sheng

Drac said:


> When I was you age that all we did, that and try to find females that also drank to excess...


 
Wait a minute... did we ever go out drinking? Because that sounds WAAAAY to familiar 


And how could drinking be a sin, didn't Jesus turn water into wine? If it wasn't for drinking what was that for just to impress the Romans.


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## Brian R. VanCise

I know a number of priests very closely and they all enjoy a good glass of wine regularly.  Drinking itself in my opinion is not a sin at all.  Even drinking too much would not be considered a sin unless you acted inappropriately and then did something really sinful.


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## zDom

mrhnau said:


> Not a sin. I don't see it being a sin anywhere in the bible. However, I do see drinking in excess as a sin. Same thing with alot of things. I don't see eating food being sinful, but eating it in excess can be (gluttony). People don't talk about that one too much though it seems...



Ya, that's what always gets me: people who are morbidly obese gossiping about how so-and-so had a drink 

When it all gets too complicated for me I just focus on two most important commandments:

a) Love the Creator with all your heart, soul and mind;

and

b) Love your neighbor as your self (or, to put it another way, treat others like you want to be treated).

"All the laws and the prophets hang on those two" or something like that


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## IcemanSK

zDom said:


> Ya, that's what always gets me: people who are morbidly obese gossiping about how so-and-so had a drink
> 
> When it all gets too complicated for me I just focus on two most important commandments:
> 
> a) Love the Creator with all your heart, soul and mind;
> 
> and
> 
> b) Love your neighbor as your self (or, to put it another way, treat others like you want to be treated).
> 
> "All the laws and the prophets hang on those two" or something like that


 
There is no expressed prohibition against drinking alcohol in the Bible. However, for some, it can be a big stumbling block to doing the 2 things that zdom mentioned above. For some Christian churches, they began in part, by reaching out to folks for whom alcohol was a problem. Therefore, they made the prohibition for their members. The Methodist Church (now the United Methodist Church) is a "dry" denomination, according to their polity (if not practice) It was one of their members (Dr. Welsh) who invented unfirmented grape juice to serve as Communion "wine" on Sunday.

For The Salvation Army (which is a Christian denomination) partly because they dealt with folks with alcohol problems, they stopped the practice of Communion on a regular basis. (Dr. Welsh's invention was not widely available at the start of The Sal. in 1865). For Salvationists, it's part of their practice not to drink alcohol.

For some Christian denominations (Episcopalians & Roman Catholics to name two) drinking alcohol is permitted & is still used in Communion to this day.


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## Jonathan Randall

Drinking no, drunkenness yes.


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## Carol

IcemanSK said:


> There is no expressed prohibition against drinking alcohol in the Bible. However, for some, it can be a big stumbling block to doing the 2 things that zdom mentioned above. For some Christian churches, they began in part, by reaching out to folks for whom alcohol was a problem. Therefore, they made the prohibition for their members. The Methodist Church (now the United Methodist Church) is a "dry" denomination, according to their polity (if not practice) It was one of their members (Dr. Welsh) who invented unfirmented grape juice to serve as Communion "wine" on Sunday.
> 
> For The Salvation Army (which is a Christian denomination) partly because they dealt with folks with alcohol problems, they stopped the practice of Communion on a regular basis. (Dr. Welsh's invention was not widely available at the start of The Sal. in 1865). For Salvationists, it's part of their practice not to drink alcohol.
> 
> For some Christian denominations (Episcopalians & Roman Catholics to name two) drinking alcohol is permitted & is still used in Communion to this day.


 
Intersting info Iceman!


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## Haze

I'll assume that we can agree that your body is the temple of the Lord. Now anything that you do to this temple that causes the deterioration of it could be considered a sin. Over eating, not enough sleep, smoking, lack of ecxersize and drinking if it causes the body or mind to function at less than it's full potention. I believe the bible stated to "not be drunk on wine but to be filled with the Holly Spirit" or something to that effect. 

Drinking, in moderation is ok. Just my oppinion.


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## Jonathan Randall

Haze said:


> I'll assume that we can agree that your body is the temple of the Lord. Now anything that you do to this temple that causes the deterioration of it could be considered a sin. Over eating, not enough sleep, smoking, lack of ecxersize and drinking if it causes the body or mind to function at less than it's full potention. I believe the bible stated to "not be drunk on wine but to be filled with the Holly Spirit" or something to that effect.
> 
> Drinking, in moderation is ok. Just my oppinion.


 

Well, I think your "opinion" is perfectly in line with the Scripture as I have read it. Good post.


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## Drac

Drac said:


> When I was you age that all we did, that and try to find females that also drank to excess...


 


Xue Sheng said:


> Wait a minute... did we ever go out drinking? Because that sounds WAAAAY to familiar


 
Possibly...Hell some nights we bypassed the whole looking for females cause it took away from our drinking time..LOL


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## Xue Sheng

Drac said:


> Possibly...Hell some nights we bypassed the whole looking for females cause it took away from our drinking time..LOL


 
Yup.... we went out drinking.


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## Drac

Lol.....


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## Arizona Angel

I can't believe nobody said it!  "Wine is actually good for your health in moderation."

I agree with eveyone else; not a sin but leads to it if miss used.


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## heretic888

zDom said:


> "All the laws and the prophets hang on those two" or something like that


 
Actually, it was Rabbi Hillel and his answer was in response to a person asking him what the Law is. After giving the love your neighbors and love God answer, he concluded "all the rest is commentary".

The Gospel authors, of course, decided to copy him about 80 years later.


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## stone_dragone

I had written a long dissertation regarding the nature of Christianity and Alcohol, citing many verses in the King James...but sinc eI timed out, I'll give the short version.

Drunkenness, yes.  Drinking...For me, no.  For anyone else, I'm not you.

Merry Christmas


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## Brian R. VanCise

Arizona Angel said:


> I can't believe nobody said it! "Wine is actually good for your health in moderation."
> 
> I agree with eveyone else; not a sin but leads to it if miss used.


 
Absolutely wine is good for you! (in moderation)  Heck my group of Doc's are always telling me this. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Not to mention the priests that I know as well.  Bottom line in my opinion drinking is not a sin but could lead to commiting sinful acts if abused.


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## Jade Tigress

MA-Caver said:


> I don't think the consumption of alcohol itself is a sin... didn't Jesus turn water into wine for a party? But the actions caused by inebriation (not being drunk itself) can be sinful, depending upon what those actions are.
> Drinking can LEAD to sin because one's inhibitions-self control are lowered dramatically when drunk and thus it's alot easier to uhh, forget one's self.



This is exactly it. It's not the consumption of alcohol that is considered a sin, but the actions that can result as a consequence of over indulgence.


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## scottt

Well, I remember the scene in the classic move "7 Samurai", where one of the so called samurai comes in falling down drunk and is (comically) unable to defend himself against the first "test".  The later explanation is that no _real_ samurai would be injured by the ambush because a real samurai would never allow himself to become so drunk as to be inattentive to a sneak attack.

At least that's where I see the MA application of this thread going...

When I drink, I'm always trying to keep track of the erosion of my senses and the possible ramifications thereof.  If I can't keep my awareness or defenses then I definitely have to go home.

..st


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## jks9199

Ben Franklin is reported to have said "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."

Drinking (or eating or anything else) to excess is sinful according to the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church.  It's a form of gluttony, and the idea (as I understand it) is that if you give in to the excess, you're putting that something in front of God. 

Personally, I've never understood the religions that try to claim that Biblical era Jews, Arabs, Romans, or whoevers didn't drink wine.  For the faiths that as a matter of discipline or submission to Divine Law don't drink alcohol -- it's a very different question.  It's just the folk (mostly fundamentist Christians) that try to make claims that don't hold up to some basic reasoning about grape juice that I disagree with.  I figure that some short time after Og The Caveman discovered that he could squeeze juice from grapes and save it in something, he discovered that if he let that juice sit around for a while, it got much more "interesting" in character...


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## tellner

Let's try this again...

:rules: 

Drunkeness makes Remembrance impossible. Am I correct in assuming that you're a Muslim? If so, Wa Salaam Aleykum!

Drunkeness is also strictly forbidden to Jews except on Purim which is a Feast of Misrule in many ways. The use of alcohol is permitted in moderation. Each drink must be accompanied by a special prayer so that even in this activity one remembers to thank the Almighty for the gift He has bestowed on us by creating wine. Wine is required for certain religious occasions. Four cups are drunk over the course of the Passover meal. It is used in the weekly Kiddush ceremony and a few other times. 

My knowledge of Muslim jurisprudence is much weaker than it should be. My wife is much more knowledgeable there. But if memory serves there was quite a bit of discussion as to whether drinks other than wine were permitted under the principle of "Do not permit that which We have forbidden or forbid that which We have permitted" and whether the use of alcohol in quantities that did not cause intoxication was permitted. Most authorities (I believe) decided that it was safer not to press one's luck and that Allah doesn't look kindly on loopholes in any case  

The Prophet Mohammed (saws) drank date and date palm wine in moderate quantities. In parts of Egypt and other areas in the Arab world the trees are going extinct as people chop them down to get a hallal buzz from the fermented sap. I've made date wine as an experiment. If that's the only way to get high I'd rather abstain.:barf:


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## RED

Im writing this from a Christian point of view because that is my experience. Im not sure of what faith you are. But you can substitute.

Read your book be it the Bible or whatever. Develop your conviction. When you talk to Jesus / God and he / she asks you why you drink, what are you going to say? My preacher / leader said it was OK? Or would you rather say the Bible saysthis thats why? 
Just some thoughts: Jesus made the wine at the wedding. Where there people over indulging in the wine? Where did the original wine go if not? Did Jesus make the wine, start his ministry before his time and get a bunch of guests drunk simply because he wanted to obey his mother? (One of the top ten sins as I like to call them in jest) Which sin was worse causing people to get drunk or disobeying his mother? Sin is sin so is Jesus in a paradox here? Im just throwing stuff out there for thought on this. Not necessarily my convictions. Paul drank wine daily (a lot more than me) for health reasons but wrote that we should not live in drunkenness. Ill catch a buzz every now and then but Im not living in a perpetual drunk, is that wrong? Psalms has many references wine brings cheer to the heart Beer is a brawler The Bible is an unchanging foundation for convictions. Preachers, emotions, consciences, philosophies, theologies and everything else can and will change sometimes as much as the weather. 

Now for the proverbial can of worms: Jesus called the religious leaders of the day white washed tombs. Why? Because they followed the traditions and laws without the heart to back it up. Modern religion is the same. There seems to be too much cliché talk and not enough emotional level conversation. I.e. look at how radical we are we dont drink, but the congregation hardly knows each other they go their separate ways for the week with little to no daily (emotional) contact with one another. Please understand Im not pointing the figure at your beliefs personally. Im generalizing modern religions by the observations Ive made visiting multiple churches. Read your book for your convictions. 

As for me I love beer. Not much into the wine scene. And from what I have read my conscience is good with it.


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## zDom

GREAT post, Red!

I don't think it could have been said any better.


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## German Coach

Carol Kaur said:


> I've been in a few small Christian churches in the American south and met congregation that had a view of alcohol that was as absolute as my own scriptures. No alcohol is permitted. The Holy Communion is consecrated grape juice instead of consecrated wine. One of my cousins goes to such a church.
> 
> We had the following conversation earlier today
> 
> Cousin: "Have a great time, hope you won't drink and drive"
> 
> Me: "Nah, I largely don't drink."
> 
> Cousin: "Oh that's good. We think its as sin"
> 
> Now......excessive drinking, drunkenness, some sort of alcohol-related gluttony....I can see that as being a sin in the Christian church.
> 
> However, it was harder for me to grasp how any drinking is a sin to a Christian, given that Jesus is seen serving wine at Cana and at the Last Supper. It's not that I think such a stance is wrong....I just don't quite understand it yet.
> 
> On the other hand...
> 
> My faith forbids alcohol completely. Usually around this time of year, I see someone asking online "Can't we have a glass of Champagne at New Years?" The answer has always come back.....no. Drinking takes one away from remembering God, therefore it can't be permitted.
> 
> I agree with the rule. In the context of the scriptures, and spirit of my faith, the reasoning is sound. I'll admit that whiule I largely don't drink, I cannot say that I NEVER drink. But, I don't think the rule should be changed because of my own personal non-compliance.
> 
> What about your path? Is a bit of responsible holiday cheer permitted? Or forbidden?


 
During the christmas holiday I as a catholic have to drink much more then usually, because otherwise I have no reason to go to confession  ....... Just kidding.....

To be honest, I enjow my wine and beer as long as it doesn´t hurt my health.


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## MA-Caver

> RED said:
> 
> 
> 
> Im writing this from a Christian point of view because that is my experience. Im not sure of what faith you are. But you can substitute.
> 
> Read your book be it the Bible or whatever. Develop your conviction. When you talk to Jesus / God and he / she asks you why you drink, what are you going to say? My preacher / leader said it was OK? Or would you rather say the Bible saysthis thats why?
> Just some thoughts: Jesus made the wine at the wedding. Where there people over indulging in the wine? Where did the original wine go if not? Did Jesus make the wine, start his ministry before his time and get a bunch of guests drunk simply because he wanted to obey his mother? (One of the top ten sins as I like to call them in jest) Which sin was worse causing people to get drunk or disobeying his mother? Sin is sin so is Jesus in a paradox here? Im just throwing stuff out there for thought on this. Not necessarily my convictions. Paul drank wine daily (a lot more than me) for health reasons but wrote that we should not live in drunkenness. Ill catch a buzz every now and then but Im not living in a perpetual drunk, is that wrong? Psalms has many references wine brings cheer to the heart Beer is a brawler The Bible is an unchanging foundation for convictions. Preachers, emotions, consciences, philosophies, theologies and everything else can and will change sometimes as much as the weather.
> 
> Now for the proverbial can of worms: Jesus called the religious leaders of the day white washed tombs. Why? Because they followed the traditions and laws without the heart to back it up. Modern religion is the same. There seems to be too much cliché talk and not enough emotional level conversation. I.e. look at how radical we are we dont drink, but the congregation hardly knows each other they go their separate ways for the week with little to no daily (emotional) contact with one another. Please understand Im not pointing the figure at your beliefs personally. Im generalizing modern religions by the observations Ive made visiting multiple churches. Read your book for your convictions.
> 
> As for me I love beer. Not much into the wine scene. And from what I have read my conscience is good with it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> zDom said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> GREAT post, Red!
> 
> I don't think it could have been said any better.
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...


Agreed! A most excellent post. Thank you Red for sharing that. 
Thoughts; You are correct quoting Paul the apostle in that "we should not live in drunkeness." Alcohol itself is not sinful, the consumption of alcohol isn't sinful. _Being under the influence_ of alcohol isn't sinful. What we DO while under the influence *could be* sinful... depending upon what it is in defiance of God's laws. What those laws are, are clearly written in (literal) stone and further defined in the Gospel(s) of Jesus Christ. 
We see ads in the media today encouraging moderation in relation to alcoholic products. The (1 a day) moderation of alcohol has been suggested by the AMA as a benefit to health (ironically). We should listen to them. 
Sin is what we believe (our) God defines it. We each will have to deal with the consensquences of our sins. We will each have to answer for our own sinful behaviors. How we act and how we think and how we feel determines whether or not we sin. Being under the influence of a mind-altering drug such as alcohol (and it *IS* a drug... base components of alcohol itself is ether and water) will cause us to do things that we may/may-not do under normal circumstances. 
We should be careful in the consumption. We should be in control (especially as Martial Artists) of ourselves at all times. 
:asian:


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## ArmorOfGod

Here is how I look at this: in one of Paul's many letters, he writes that if a Christian feels that he would become closer to Christ (Jesus) by being a vegetarian, than other Christians should let him be and not say anything, as long as what he is doing does not directly go against scripture.  The vegetarian thing is just an example that Paul used, but it fits quiet niceley with the orginal post of avoiding alchohol to get closer to Christ.  I disagree, but it does not clash with scripture, so I would be sinning to say that Carol is wrong.
Read Romans 14:1-4 to see those scriptures.

Those versus helped me as Christian, as they showed me that Christianity is not a "one size fits all" kind of thing.  That section reminds me not to judge others who are doing what they feel is right in God's eyes.

AoG


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## mijemi

Some churches have that blanket rule of not drinking for the weak among us. Sometimes we're not the people who should be deciding whether we can handle our alcohol (our families and friends might be better judges unless they're our drinking buddies too!). So rather than get into how much drinking is acceptable and who can handle their grog it's sometimes easier to just avoid it altogether. I think it tastes gross anyway! :barf:


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## Drac

German Coach said:


> During the christmas holiday I as a catholic have to drink much more then usually, because otherwise I have no reason to go to confession  ....... Just kidding.....


 
You are not alone Coach..



			
				Greman Coach said:
			
		

> To be honest, I enjow my wine and beer as long as it doesn´t hurt my health.


 
I tried a coulple of bottles of real German beer once ..They say I tried to sleep under a table...LOL


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## German Coach

Drac said:


> You are not alone Coach..
> 
> 
> 
> I tried a coulple of bottles of real German beer once ..They say I tried to sleep under a table...LOL


 
The best German beers are from monasteries. 1000 years of brewing experience without commercial pressure :drinkbeer


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## ed-swckf

I don't drink alcohol ever myself and i don't follow a particular faith or believe in a god.  I would however have troubles with many structured faiths as i have anti alcohol beliefs, in other words i would believe it a sin to drink and i don't often see that ideal supported in religion.


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## Andrew Green

Definately not a sin.

However trying to control a group of people by telling them they will go to hell for violating arbitrary rules about what people should or should not put into there own bodies when it effects no one else, that is a sin.  Stone them all. 

~ Book of Andrew 12:4


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## Drac

German Coach said:


> The best German beers are from monasteries. 1000 years of brewing experience without commercial pressure :drinkbeer


 
I don't know where it came from but it was EXCELLENT and POTENT..


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## Drac

Andrew Green said:


> Definately not a sin.


 
It's a good thing otherwise a whole boatload of folks are bound for hell after last night...


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## Drac

Talk about your dbl edged sword..Bound for hell because you drank and woke up feeling like you are already there because  of it....


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## MA-Caver

Drac said:


> Originally Posted by *Andrew Green *
> Definately not a sin.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a good thing otherwise a whole boatload of folks are bound for hell after last night...
Click to expand...


Drac, while I get the gist of your tongue in cheek comment here, I'd like to expound upon the idea. 

If it were a sin, it is still not necessarily mean that they will be bound to pay the gate-keeper the entry fee to enter hell. There is a thing called repentance and that is (one of the things) that "saves" us from Sin... that and the atonement. 
Repentance simply means turning a 180 on the sin itself. Or even more simply put... ask forgiveness (from the Lord) and then stop drinking. However one may want to expound upon *that* idea is up to them, i.e. help others to stop drinking and so on. 

So there's a way out of it. But it by no means says it's okay to do it over and over again... get drunk-- oh I'm sorry, then a month later get drunk again-- oh I'm sorry... a month later get drunk again -- oh I'm sorry... nope doesn't work that way. Repentance is what Jesus meant when he told the prositute "go and sin no more."


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## exile

Drac said:


> Talk about your dbl edged sword..Bound for hell because you drank and woke up feeling like you are already there because  of it....



Years ago I knew a doctor, a cardiologist, who told me that there was emerging information that red wine in _reasonable_ moderation (not austere moderation!) was terrific for your heart, that the massive Framingham Heart Study, probably the broadest and deepest longitudinal medical study of all time, was pointing clearly in this direction, and many other things which were music to mine ears. Since then everything he's been talking about have become well known, and amply confirmed; even somewhat killjoy outfits like the Centre for Science in the Public Interest (I love them and the stuff in their newsletter _Nutrition Action_ is great, it's just that they can be a little puritanical in tone, sometimes) are grudgingly admitting that the health benefits are real and not just the product of a well-organized marketing campain run jointly by Napa Valley wineries and the government of France. Now I'm beginning to hear similar things about beer... 

My understanding of the health story on beer includes the interesting claim that during the Middle Ages, ales were the chief sources of a number of trace minerals and nutrients for the vast majority of the population who were not particularly well off, and was the one sure way to make water drinkable (`fresh' water was contaminated by so many nasty microbes that you were much more likely to die of cholera by drinking water than die of liver trouble from drinking beer). And one of the longest-lived populations in the world is on Sardiniathey have a record number of centenarians, apparentlywhich also has a thriving local wine economy...

So on due consideration, Drac, I do believe I'll have anotheryou joining me? My treat...


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## Andrew Green

Not just wine, moderate drinking in general has health benefits: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_consumption_and_health

Not great ones to the point that anyone recommends everyone drinks, but there are benefits to having a beer or two a day


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## exile

Andrew Green said:


> Not just wine, moderate drinking in general has health benefits: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcohol_consumption_and_health
> 
> Not great ones to the point that anyone recommends everyone drinks, but there are benefits to having a beer or two a day



Right, this is what I've been hearing more and more about beer, recently.  

I recall a play, _The Barretts of Wimple Street_, about the conflicts between Elizabeth Barrett, who later married the poet Robert Browning, and her family. She was very sickly as a young woman and her doctor insisted that, for her health (even survival), she drink every day a tankard of porter, which some of us would love to have prescribed for us, but which she absolutely hatedcouldn't stand the stuff. The interesting point, though, was that porter did at the time have a reputation as being a `strengthener', supporting frail constitutions such as hers. It was recommended as part of therapy for `consumption', aka tuberculosis, and other wasting conditions, and so on. Some of the recent medical evidence seems to be catching up with these much older views of my favorite class of grain products....


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## tellner

I would strongly recommend the delightful and informative _A History of the World in Six Glasses_. It traces the effect, history and significance of beer, wine, coffee, tea, spirits and soda. Great stuff, informative and engaging.

One of the reasons European monasteries produce such wonderful beer is Lent. Back in the day the monks were not allowed solid food other than the Host during the forty days of Lent. They were allowed to drink, so soups were popular, and beer became the substitute for bread. It had lots of calories and was rich in B vitamins.


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## exile

tellner said:


> I would strongly recommend the delightful and informative _A History of the World in Six Glasses_. It traces the effect, history and significance of beer, wine, coffee, tea, spirits and soda. Great stuff, informative and engaging.



Thanks much for the reference, Tellner!



tellner said:


> One of the reasons European monasteries produce such wonderful beer is Lent. Back in the day the monks were not allowed solid food other than the Host during the forty days of Lent. They were allowed to drink, so soups were popular, and beer became the substitute for bread. It had lots of calories and was rich in B vitamins.



Yes, I'd heard something similar about the B-vitamin complexes in beer; you lose the effects significantly when the yeasts, which produce these complexes, are filtered out, so real/bottle-fermented ales are the best from that point of view (and just about any other you can think of, IMHO). And there are also apparently certain complex compounds in beer, along the same general lines as resveritrol in wine, which have important health benefits. There's even an interesting story in the online _National Geographic_ about the role of beer as a vector supplying naturally-occcuring antibotic compounds to ancient Nubians; check out

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/05/0516_050516_ancientbeer.html


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## Flatlander

Jade Tigress said:


> This is exactly it. It's not the consumption of alcohol that is considered a sin, but the actions that can result as a consequence of over indulgence.


For example, I have found that after too many beers, I tend to covet my neighbour's horse.


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## exile

Flatlander said:


> For example, I have found that after too many beers, I tend to covet my neighbour's horse.



This is bad, very bad. You're probably drinking lager. Switch to ale and see if it makes a differenceI'm sure it will!


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## ed-swckf

MA-Caver said:


> Drac, while I get the gist of your tongue in cheek comment here, I'd like to expound upon the idea.
> 
> If it were a sin, it is still not necessarily mean that they will be bound to pay the gate-keeper the entry fee to enter hell. There is a thing called repentance and that is (one of the things) that "saves" us from Sin... that and the atonement.
> Repentance simply means turning a 180 on the sin itself. Or even more simply put... ask forgiveness (from the Lord) and then stop drinking. However one may want to expound upon *that* idea is up to them, i.e. help others to stop drinking and so on.
> 
> So there's a way out of it. But it by no means says it's okay to do it over and over again... get drunk-- oh I'm sorry, then a month later get drunk again-- oh I'm sorry... a month later get drunk again -- oh I'm sorry... nope doesn't work that way. Repentance is what Jesus meant when he told the prositute "go and sin no more."


 
But they are bound for hell until they repent and make the 180 you mention.  There is of course no certainty of staying on course for hell but the comment simply says that there will be lots of people who drink the new year in so if its a sin then they are hellbound.  What interests me is how casual can people be with repentance?  I mean do they just have to make an acknowledgement of it being wrong, should they try their hardest to stem from sinful behaviour.  Is a sin still forgiven and repentance granted if you aren't 100% commited to avoiding sin?


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## ed-swckf

exile said:


> This is bad, very bad. You're probably drinking lager. Switch to ale and see if it makes a differenceI'm sure it will!


 
Does it make the horse look more like your neighbours wife with the ale?


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## Drac

Either way you might get a free ride..


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## zDom

Flatlander said:


> For example, I have found that after too many beers, I tend to covet my neighbour's horse.



Better than lusting after his sheep...


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## Carol

Drac said:


> Either way you might get a free ride..


 
Oh....shame on you Drac!!


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## Drac

Carol Kaur said:


> Oh....shame on you Drac!!


 

I'm a baaaaad boy..Now spank my evil bottom...LOL


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## Carol

Do me a favor Drac.  Don't ever say "baaaaaaad" in the same thread that references "sheep" mmmkay?


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## Drac

Carol Kaur said:


> Do me a favor Drac. Don't ever say "baaaaaaad" in the same thread that references "sheep" mmmkay?


 
Ho-Kay...How about I've been a naughty boy???


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## Carol

Drac said:


> Ho-Kay...How about I've been a naughty boy???


 
That will do.


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