# Learning from DVD's



## TMA17 (Oct 24, 2017)

How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.  

DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts


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## TigerHeart (Oct 24, 2017)

I’m learning karate.  DVDs help while learning with an instructor.  Learning dvds without instructor is hard if you are self teaching.  With instructor, you learn better and doing correctly and more understanding on the forms.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2017)

You should be able to learn this "side kick, spin back fist" combo from video.


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## jobo (Oct 24, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.
> 
> DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts


having read the blurb, you would do as well with coopers colour codes, it seems to be mostly phycobabble and not much about actually fighting

and no, you can't learn to fight off a off a,dvd, like you can't learn to ride a bike off a dvd


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 24, 2017)

No


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## jobo (Oct 24, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You should be able to learn this "side kick, spin back fist" combo from video.


that's a luck shot


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## TMA17 (Oct 24, 2017)

Thanks, that's what I figured.


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## Danny T (Oct 24, 2017)

DVDs & videos are excellent reference material.


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## Anarax (Oct 24, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao



I think it depends on three things. The learners background(karate, kali, kung fu), the quality of instruction in the video, and what techniques are being shown. Meaning if the learner has a good Karate background he will have an easier time learning new striking techniques from a video, but will have a harder time learning throws from a video judo without a grappling background. The quality of instruction varies greatly video to video. If they explain the dynamics and application of the techniques, then yes you can learn a lot from videos. Essentially if you have a good foundation you can add many things onto it as long as it's related to what you have experience in.

For example; we practice multiple weapon disarms in Kali. I understand the dynamics of disarms, a lot of it comes down to distance, leverage and angles. Thus I've watched some weapons disarm videos and have been able to execute them in class. I don't think I would be able to do the same if I watched throws on a judo video. We do throws in Kali, but we do them differently than Judokas do.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 24, 2017)

You won't have teacher for all your life time. Soon or later, your teacher will pass away. To have the ability of self-learning is important.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.
> 
> DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts


It depends on what you are learning and if you are getting feedback from a knowledgeable teacher.  The problem with DVD only learning is that no one is there to correct you when you are doing something incorrectly.  The other  factor will be how much do you know and understand of the system in the DVD.

Edit: Ultimately you'll need a really good teacher, a detailed DVD, and feed back from an actual instructor who can watch a video of the student and make corrections.


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## KPM (Oct 25, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.



More than once in forums when people have posted to essentially say:  "I am really interested in learning Wing Chun.  But the nearest instructor is X hours away from me"  I have advised them to contact that instructor to find out what lineage he or she is in.  Then find out if anyone in the lineage has released instructional DVDs.  Or ask the instructor which DVD series they would recommend.  Then find a partner and started working from the DVDs.  Then visit that instructor as often as your budget and schedule allows to get direct instruction, feedback, and correction.  No, this is not the optimal way to learn.  But with a little bit of physical talent as well as some persistent hard work it is very workable.  Invest in a video camera and get the instructor's permission to film lessons or feedback when you visit him. 

Now, if you are already learning or have learned Wing Chun and have a good grasp of the basic structure and mechanics, you can watch other people's DVD series and learn a lot.  You can pick up on different interpretations or applications of techniques.  You can learn a different approach or deeper understanding of some of the concepts.  You might even pick up on good things that you missed in class because you weren't there or they simply weren't taught. 

Most people that can learn well in an actual class can also learn well from watching a DVD.  Its a matter of being able to think in 3 dimensions and take something you see visually and do it physically.  You might be seeing the instructor standing in front of you in a  group class or you might be seeing an instructor in front of you on the TV screen.  The benefit of the live instructor over the TV screen is that he can say..."Hey you!  You're doing that wrong!  Do it this  way!"    So you have to have the ability to pay close attention to the movement, watch yourself in a mirror, and self-correct.  Otherwise you can learn a lot from DVDs!


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## TMA17 (Oct 25, 2017)

Great points.  We have DVDs at the Moy Yat school I’ve been going to.  In fact I’ve learned a lot of SNT from ththe DVD which is old footage of Moy Yat doing it.  I think as many states it’s good to get that correction from your teacher at certain points.  I can see myself learning a good amount via DVD.


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## Parky (Oct 25, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.
> 
> DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts



If you have a martial arts base that came from real hands on instruction, hopefully good instruction, and you know your own body, generally speaking DVD's can be a nice supplement to your training...as long as they are instructional and not merely demonstrations. By instructional I mean someone explaining the 'why' of what they are doing, rather than just showing the choreography of something like a form. Practicing choreography in forms and even drills (without an understanding of 'why') is a waste of time...to me. You must understand the purpose of what you are doing.

I have a seminar dvd of Chu Shong Tin. In his Chum Kiu seminar he explains 2-way (multi-vector) force. Years ago when I viewed the video I kind of understood that part. He also explained using the Center of Mass. I did not get that part. It was 10 years later before I met a teacher who could help me understand how to use the Center of Mass. If I wanted to, now, I could go back and review that old dvd with a deeper understanding of Center, and my understanding of Center use is likely to get even better. On that same seminar video, Chu Shong Tin demonstrates the chum kiu form. His form demonstration is the part of the dvd with little to no value. If watching someone perform a form or drill is all a person had for instruction, then better to look for a real teacher.

Often times you can't learn much from a hands-on instructor any better than a dvd...because, well, many instructors out there aren't very good. In my personal WC journey I kissed a lot of frogs, a lot, in order to find a prince or two. Learning MA aint like learning Algebra, baby.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

KPM said:


> More than once in forums when people have posted to essentially say:  "I am really interested in learning Wing Chun.  But the nearest instructor is X hours away from me"  I have advised them to contact that instructor to find out what lineage he or she is in.  Then find out if anyone in the lineage has released instructional DVDs.  Or ask the instructor which DVD series they would recommend.  Then find a partner and started working from the DVDs.  Then visit that instructor as often as your budget and schedule allows to get direct instruction, feedback, and correction.  No, this is not the optimal way to learn.  But with a little bit of physical talent as well as some persistent hard work it is very workable.  Invest in a video camera and get the instructor's permission to film lessons or feedback when you visit him.
> 
> Now, if you are already learning or have learned Wing Chun and have a good grasp of the basic structure and mechanics, you can watch other people's DVD series and learn a lot.  You can pick up on different interpretations or applications of techniques.  You can learn a different approach or deeper understanding of some of the concepts.  You might even pick up on good things that you missed in class because you weren't there or they simply weren't taught.
> 
> Most people that can learn well in an actual class can also learn well from watching a DVD.  Its a matter of being able to think in 3 dimensions and take something you see visually and do it physically.  You might be seeing the instructor standing in front of you in a  group class or you might be seeing an instructor in front of you on the TV screen.  The benefit of the live instructor over the TV screen is that he can say..."Hey you!  You're doing that wrong!  Do it this  way!"    So you have to have the ability to pay close attention to the movement, watch yourself in a mirror, and self-correct.  Otherwise you can learn a lot from DVDs!


I'll add that if you have that video camera, you should video yourself doing the things you are practicing. Then compare what you do to what's on the DVD and what you videoed of your instructor. It's not great feedback, but you'll be surprised what you find yourself doing that you didn't think you were. I do this with myself sometimes when I teach classes. It helps if I know what my students are seeing, and sometimes I get to see something I do that works, that I didn't realize I was doing - an unconscious adaptation that helps me out - then I can incorporate that in what I teach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 25, 2017)

Here's my thought on using DVD/video to support training:

If you have a foundation to work from, video can be a useful tool for learning new techniques (related to ones you already know) or variations of existing techniques.
If you are thinking of supporting forms from video, only use videos that are extremely close to what your instructor does, and use the videos simply as a reminder of the movements (and a way to look at small points you didn't pay attention to during class).
Don't try to learn anything new from video at first. Use it only to support what you are learning from your instructor. This way you don't incorporate any misunderstood movements and principles before your instructor has a chance to cover the technique/form.
Aside from the first example (and preferably even then), always combine video with feedback from an instructor or other reasonably advanced practitioner of the art (not someone who is just learning it).


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2017)

Danny T said:


> DVDs & videos are excellent reference material.



As an addition to actual, in-person, training by a competent and qualified instructor.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2017)

Even in person, when I show a student to perform, say, a middle-body block, they imitate what they see me do, and then I have to correct them.  Usually many times per student.  This is not because I am a terrible instructor or because they are a terrible student.  It is because even as simple a movement as a middle body block has many subtle nuances that mere eyeballs and repetition do not correctly interpret.

I show.  They do.  I correct.  We repeat.  About a thousand times.

No video can make corrections.  No book can encapsulate all the necessary requirements, nor note what the student does right or wrong.

I have seen the results of video learning.  Uniformly terrible.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You won't have teacher for all your life time. Soon or later, your teacher will pass away. To have the ability of self-learning is important.


Sure.

But definitely not as a beginner.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 25, 2017)

I do not recommend dvd as the primary or only mode of instruction.

If you are getting quality instruction from a good teacher face-to-face and hands-on, hen the right dvd can be a good supplemental aid.

I do not recommend anyone try to learn a method via dvd alone.


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## Danny T (Oct 25, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure.
> 
> But definitely not as a beginner.


Or even a intermediate level student.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 25, 2017)

Here's the other thing, and I will say it although most probably would not...

Most students in traditional in-person training quit very quickly.  Few bother to keep training long enough to learn anything useful.

Video training?   Even worse.  People will sign up, pay, and stop doing it.  A couple lessons.  They're like the yoga and tae-bo and jazzercise videos you see in thrift stores for a dollar.

Because people are lazy and as soon as they learn they have to put in work, they don't want to do it anymore.

Sorry, my opinion.

Are there exceptions?  Sure.  Very few.


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## Buka (Oct 25, 2017)

DVD and book learning are great for experienced, talented Martial Artists.
But for neophytes, useless, dangerous even.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 25, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's the other thing, and I will say it although most probably would not...
> 
> Most students in traditional in-person training quit very quickly.  Few bother to keep training long enough to learn anything useful.
> 
> ...


I think this speaks of the difficulty of training alone.  In a class the student can feed off each others drive.  If the student feels lazy then they can look at the other students and use that to energize.  But when you are training alone, there is no one else around to keep you energized to train. 

I don't know how many of us would consider DVD training sessions fun.  I'm pretty sure a TaeBo class is really fun compared to me at home in the basement doing TaeBo.  Training as a group =Tons of fun.  Training alone not so much.


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## wingchun100 (Oct 26, 2017)

As a supplement to real training? They can be okay, provided the video is not too different from what you do in class.

In fact, given the lineage politics in Wing Chun, you would not want to study any videos OTHER than ones that do the forms according to your lineage. God help you if you show up at your Ip Ching school doing things the way the Leung Sheung lineage does.

I hate lineage politics. I think we can all learn from each other.


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## wingerjim (Oct 26, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.
> 
> DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts


I think videos, magazine articles and books are good enhancement tools but they cannot replace a good teacher. We all much have feedback. How many times have you thought, I got this down, only to have your teacher correct something that should have been obvious but it is not?


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## Flying Crane (Oct 26, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I think this speaks of the difficulty of training alone.  In a class the student can feed off each others drive.  If the student feels lazy then they can look at the other students and use that to energize.  But when you are training alone, there is no one else around to keep you energized to train.
> 
> I don't know how many of us would consider DVD training sessions fun.  I'm pretty sure a TaeBo class is really fun compared to me at home in the basement doing TaeBo.  Training as a group =Tons of fun.  Training alone not so much.


And beyond simply being energized or motivated to train, time in an actual class helps you figure out how to systematically practice this stuff when you are working by yourself (which must be done in addition to being in class). That is something that is difficult for many people.  If there is no experience with this, I imagine working entirely off video and without a teacher or a class experience, could lead to a lot of disjointed and inefficient training sessions.


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## wckf92 (Oct 26, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> How well do you think you could learn from DVD's in terms of forms/moves etc?  I know nothing can replace sparring with a real person, especially chi sao.
> 
> DOWNLOAD: Adam Chan - Core Self Defense Set - Pragmatic Martial Arts


Just fyi...this topic was discussed before so use the search function and read previous threads...might be some tidbits in there.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> And beyond simply being energized or motivated to train, time in an actual class helps you figure out how to systematically practice this stuff when you are working by yourself (which must be done in addition to being in class). That is something that is difficult for many people.  If there is no experience with this, I imagine working entirely off video and without a teacher or a class experience, could lead to a lot of disjointed and inefficient training sessions.


I took Jow Ga in my 20's.  then about 3 years later I left the school (life got in the way).  I continued to train the stuff that I knew.  Many years went by before I started Jow Ga again.  The one thing I didn't do, was to buy the only DVD of Jow Ga that is available from  guy name Ron Wheeler. That's how much it meant for me to be in a class learning because of my skills and lack of ability to use Jow Ga back then.  Now it's a little different, I understand so much more and can see more, understand more, and learn more on my own than I could back then.  My current Sifu was really big on not giving us the answers of "How to" when it came teaching us.  He would only gives us an answer after we spent time trying to understand the technique.  

It wasn't until I reached current level that I feel I can use a DVD. Not every DVD is correct in their explanations and there's no way to tell if it is, if the person is a beginner.

This is one of the most confusing techniques within the Jow Ga System. He spends 8 minutes talking about 2 pieces of a punching technique giving insight on a possible application. He could probably talk a full hour just on those 2 pieces alone before getting into the actual application. Also he's talking about the concept of the punch by showing a possible application.  It's not actually a HOW TO discussion on using the technique.





vs 45 seconds here:  Even if you could hear the sound, it's only 45 seconds





Same technique here. at 16 seconds





Some doing what you stated "..working entirely off video and without a teacher or class experience, could lead to a lot of disjointed and inefficient training sessions." is spot on.  If you are a beginner and picked the last video to train from then you would be in really bad shape.  These videos illustrating the issues and challenges that are present when learning through a DVD.  Not being able to ask questions about what is being shown is probably the biggest issue.  Because some of you probably question what you see but you can't ask a question and if you could, you may not get a response if your question is similar to this.  "But what if he punches me in the face when I try to do the technique?"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It wasn't until I reached current level that I feel I can use a DVD.


Some DVD can be real helpful. Every time that I watched this clip, it reminds me that a good front kick should be a "downward curve" and not an "upward curve".


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## Flying Crane (Oct 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some DVD can be real helpful. Every time that I watched this clip, it reminds me that a good front kick should be a "downward curve" and not an "upward curve".


Nobody says that videos are completely useless and worthless.  Experienced people can learn things from video, get new ideas and perspectives on things in which they are already well grounded.

What is discouraged is a new person trying to learn a system via video alone or as the primary mode of instruction.

I would also discourage an experienced person from learning a new system in that way.

As always, context matters and very few things are absolute.  For some people, video can be a good tool in the right context.  For other people, video would be nothing but trouble.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2017)

Flying Crane said:


> For other people, video would be nothing but trouble.


Agree with you 100% there!

Here is a good example. If someone who has not trained "head lock", the following picture and video may lead him into the wrong direction.

Something are wrong in this picture.

1. His left elbow joint should point straight down to the ground.
2. His right arm should control his opponent's left arm.
3. He should not allow his opponent to have both hands free and control his waist.
4. He should not let his opponent to have solid rooting.
5. He should bend his opponent's spine "side way".

If any requirement of 1 - 5 are not met, he should release his "head lock" and don't put himself in that dangerous position.







This is how a bad "head lock" video will put a new student in trouble (from 1.14 - 1.18).


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Some DVD can be real helpful. Every time that I watched this clip, it reminds me that a good front kick should be a "downward curve" and not an "upward curve".


I look at that video and I still don't know what you are talking about in terms of "downward curve"  My front kicks work like a piston.  Knee comes up and legs go out,  heel strikes target, legs comes back in, knee comes down.  I'm not sure I understand the context of what is done in the video, but I know from experience that it's easier for me to catch a front kick when the leg doesn't come back as shown in the video.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 26, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree with you 100% there!
> 
> Here is a good example. If someone who has not trained "head lock", the following picture and video may lead him into the wrong direction.
> 
> ...


The head lock is a good example of a technique that is often done through imitation and is often done incorrectly making it less effective.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 26, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> I look at that video and I still don't know what you are talking about in terms of "downward curve"  My front kicks work like a piston.  Knee comes up and legs go out,  heel strikes target, legs comes back in, knee comes down.  I'm not sure I understand the context of what is done in the video, but I know from experience that it's easier for me to catch a front kick when the leg doesn't come back as shown in the video.


The

- toes push kick is a downward curve. It's used to kick on the chest (or belly) and then add body weight behind.
- knee kick is a straight like.
- groin kick (or chin kick) is an upward curve.

That "toes push kick" can be used to

- close the distance, and
- set up a punch.

If you pull the kicking leg back, you will miss the chance to "step in".

- Every kick can be a step.
- Every step can be a kick.

When your opponent catches your kicking leg, you can

- hammer fist on top of his head.
- head lock on him.
- extend your kicking leg between his legs, control both his shoulders, and start the stand up grappling game.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The
> 
> - toes push kick is a downward curve. It's used to kick on the chest (or belly) and then add body weight behind.
> - knee kick is a straight like.
> ...


It seems chancy to start the stand-up grappling game on one leg - or are you getting that leg down first, somehow?


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The
> 
> - toes push kick is a downward curve. It's used to kick on the chest (or belly) and then add body weight behind.
> - knee kick is a straight like.
> ...


 Toe rip kick is not as useful when everybody is wearing shoes. I am familiar with the kick, it's awesome, but not so much when wearing shoes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Toe rip kick is not as useful when everybody is wearing shoes. I am familiar with the kick, it's awesome, but not so much when wearing shoes.


This isn't a kick I've trained, Bill. What makes it less useful with shoes on?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> This isn't a kick I've trained, Bill. What makes it less useful with shoes on?


Imagine trying to do a finger jab with mittens on. Same issue.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

kempodisciple said:


> Imagine trying to do a finger jab with mittens on. Same issue.


Another technique I haven't trained. You're not helping, KD.


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## Kababayan (Oct 27, 2017)

Anarax said:


> I think it depends on three things. The learners background(karate, kali, kung fu), the quality of instruction in the video, and what techniques are being shown. Meaning if the learner has a good Karate background he will have an easier time learning new striking techniques from a video, but will have a harder time learning throws from a video judo without a grappling background. The quality of instruction varies greatly video to video. If they explain the dynamics and application of the techniques, then yes you can learn a lot from videos. Essentially if you have a good foundation you can add many things onto it as long as it's related to what you have experience in.



What Anarax says. Dvds can be a valuable tool, especially for those who have been dojo-trained for a long time.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> It seems chancy to start the stand-up grappling game on one leg - or are you getting that leg down first, somehow?


Of course you want to get that leg down first. 2 legs balance is always better than 1 leg balance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Toe rip kick is not as useful when everybody is wearing shoes. I am familiar with the kick, it's awesome, but not so much when wearing shoes.


In one sparring against a boxer, I used the toes push kick (with shoes on) to break a boxer's ribs. I have trained all my kicks with shoes on. I wish I can raise my knee as high as GM Han Ching-Tan's kick (my long fist teacher's teacher) before I kick out. GM Han's clip helps me to train toward that direction.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The
> 
> - toes push kick is a downward curve. It's used to kick on the chest (or belly) and then add body weight behind.
> - knee kick is a straight like.
> ...


Thanks. that makes sense to me now that you have explained it. I couldn't tell just by looking at the video.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In one sparring against a boxer, I used the toes push kick (with shoes on) to break a boxer's ribs. I have trained all my kicks with shoes on. I wish I can raise my knee as high as GM Han Ching-Tan's kick (my long fist teacher's teacher) before I kick out. GM Han's clip helps me to train toward that direction.


This is what you are talking about at the beginning of the clip.  That day that shot was so wide open I knew without a doubt that I could break his ribs, but it's not a real fight so I gave him a "love tap kick" to the ribs similar to what you are speaking. WARNING THE VIDEO MAY TAKE TIME TO LOAD.  http://www.forwebspace.com/tempvideo/increaseintensity.mp4


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what you are talking about at the beginning of the clip.  That day that shot was so wide open I knew without a doubt that I could break his ribs, but it's not a real fight so I gave him a "love tap kick" to the ribs similar to what you are speaking. WARNING THE VIDEO MAY TAKE TIME TO LOAD.  http://www.forwebspace.com/tempvideo/increaseintensity.mp4


My sparring was not a real fight either. I did not intend to hurt my opponent. I just wanted to stop my opponent's forward movement. My boxer opponent moved in fast, I kicked my leg out, he dropped down in front of me, the sparring was over.

I have always believed that: 

A + B > A


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 27, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> My sparring was not a real fight either. I did not intend to hurt my opponent. I just wanted to stop my opponent's forward movement. My boxer opponent moved in fast, I kicked my leg out, he dropped down in front of me, the sparring was over.
> 
> I have always believed that:
> 
> A + B > A


It's a surprise that it's not a common kick that is often seen in sparring competitions.  Most people go with the round house type kicks or the side kicks.  I guess you and I are the only ones who like that kick.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Toe rip kick is not as useful when everybody is wearing shoes. I am familiar with the kick, it's awesome, but not so much when wearing shoes.


When I was young, one day I saw my long fist teacher did "western squat" with heel up. I asked him why didn't he do the "full squat" with heel down. He told me it was for developing the "toes push kick" and bend toes back while kicking. Since long fist guys always kick with shoes on. The "western squat" training is needed.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's a surprise that it's not a common kick that is often seen in sparring competitions.  Most people go with the round house type kicks or the side kicks.  I guess you and I are the only ones who like that kick.


The front kick is much harder to be caught than the roundhouse kick. So it's safer. Also when you do your front kick, both of your arms can have the same reach. When you do the side kick, you will always have 1 long arm and 1 short arm.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 27, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> It's a surprise that it's not a common kick that is often seen in sparring competitions.  Most people go with the round house type kicks or the side kicks.  I guess you and I are the only ones who like that kick.


I don't think I could pull off a side kick in sparring, unless I'd already knocked them back hard. I just don't practice it enough for that. I'm much more likely to use a front kick (similar to what you're talking about here) or a roundhouse kick. The difference for me is that the roundhouse doesn't feel as "stuffed" if they close in a few inches, as the front kick does.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think I could pull off a side kick in sparring, unless I'd already knocked them back hard. I just don't practice it enough for that. I'm much more likely to use a front kick (similar to what you're talking about here) or a roundhouse kick. The difference for me is that the roundhouse doesn't feel as "stuffed" if they close in a few inches, as the front kick does.


When in close, the kicks i like are cross over stomps and shoba konate, as well as using the front snap kick, but employing the rechamber against the back of the legs. Hard to see or defend against when up close. I like side kicks, seldom use them as the only realistic follow up is a set up for a spinning back kick. Both linear attacks.


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The front kick is much harder to be caught than the roundhouse kick. So it's safer. Also when you do your front kick, both of your arms can have the same reach. When you do the side kick, you will always have 1 long arm and 1 short arm.


Only if it's quickly rechambered, which few people do.

I love catching front kicks because people tend to throw them to the groin, and they throw from the back leg, which is a telegraph move, and they lug it out there and hold it, expecting it to sink into soft tissue, and they tend to use the top of the foot as the striking surface. All wrong.

It only takes a slight body shift once they've committed to the kick and it goes by you, nice and slow. Easy to catch if you want to, but not necessary. Attack standing leg instead. Or continue kicking leg up, strike exposed groin. Or leave elbow where your own groin used to be, let the kick hit that. Or whatever.

Now, a nice lead leg fast snap kick? Different story. Not as strong but much harder to avoid.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> When in close, the kicks i like are cross over stomps and shoba konate, as well as using the front snap kick, but employing the rechamber against the back of the legs. Hard to see or defend against when up close. I like side kicks, seldom use them as the only realistic follow up is a set up for a spinning back kick. Both linear attacks.


Once I get close, my kicks go away. I want to get to clinch range where my favorite grappling tools live.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 28, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I love catching front kicks because people tend to throw them to the groin, and they throw from the back leg, ...
> Now, a nice lead leg fast snap kick? Different story. Not as strong but much harder to avoid.


Agree! IMO, to throw a back leg kick can be as dangerous as to

- throw a back arm punch, or
- step in back leg in front of the front leg.

When you do that, you will

- telegraph yourself, and
- switch sides and expose your center.

It's a trade off for

- short distance, fast, and safer vs.
- long distance, powerful and risky.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't think I could pull off a side kick in sparring, unless I'd already knocked them back hard. I just don't practice it enough for that. I'm much more likely to use a front kick (similar to what you're talking about here) or a roundhouse kick. The difference for me is that the roundhouse doesn't feel as "stuffed" if they close in a few inches, as the front kick does.


The front kick is often trained to attack the torso but you can use it to attack a wider range from the heart to the knees.  A an average person's flexibility can reach within those ranges for a front kick.  So instead of thinking front kick only to the torso think front kick to the meat of the thighs, joints, hips, and if you have decent flexibility then kick the heart or face (depending on how tall your opponent is)

I classify the side kick as either Korean / Japanese methods and CMA methods.  For me the Korean / Japanese methods are hard on my hip.  The CMA is easier for me and my restricted flexibility.  In traditional CMA we turn our hip over which takes a lot of stress off the hip, especially in the joint.  The easiest to describe is foot horizontal vs foot pointed downward.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 28, 2017)

JowGaWolf said:


> The front kick is often trained to attack the torso but you can use it to attack a wider range from the heart to the knees.  A an average person's flexibility can reach within those ranges for a front kick.  So instead of thinking front kick only to the torso think front kick to the meat of the thighs, joints, hips, and if you have decent flexibility then kick the heart or face (depending on how tall your opponent is)
> 
> I classify the side kick as either Korean / Japanese methods and CMA methods.  For me the Korean / Japanese methods are hard on my hip.  The CMA is easier for me and my restricted flexibility.  In traditional CMA we turn our hip over which takes a lot of stress off the hip, especially in the joint.  The easiest to describe is foot horizontal vs foot pointed downward.


Hmm...sounds like I should learn a little about the CMA method. I know nearly nothing about it, but my hips are very tight (can't sit cross-legged).


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## Bill Mattocks (Oct 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Once I get close, my kicks go away. I want to get to clinch range where my favorite grappling tools live.


kicks are sweeps, sweeps are throws. Lots of ways to knock a person down. The hands assist, the hips provide the fulcrum, and away we go.


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## punisher73 (Oct 30, 2017)

As with all things, "it depends..."

Does a dvd replace a qualified instructor?  NO

Can a person who has good visual skills and a kinesthetic learning style be able to self-teach to some degree and be proficient?  YES

Now, here is where the grey areas come into play.  You can have a great instructor and a not so great student, and the student will only see what he wants to see and never make the corrections that the instructor gives.  You can also have an average instructor with a very gifted student that can learn and make the necessary adjustments through feedback with their partners and be very good.  

For example, former UFC Champion Evan Tanner (rip) learned his submission grappling skills from a video set and some training partners.  Lots of hands on and trial and error.  Which brings to the next point, the journey is MUCH faster with a good instructor to help point out "pitfalls" in your training so you don't lose time.  

With a "live" instructor or a dvd, you HAVE TO HAVE a training partner to get feedback.  The training partner, no matter what route you take is one of the most important parts (the MOST important part if you are learning by dvd) to actually attack properly and realistically to learn how to make your technique work.

The reason I have this view is, once upon a time ALL martial arts were self-taught and then refined.  So, if you are just talking about "fighting skills" then that is one thing.  BUT, if you are trying to pass down a traditional system and to teach it the way it is supposed to be taught then you have to learn from an instructor in that style.  Even styles that are "close" in mechanics you will have the external shell of the forms and basics but may not have the internal "tweaks" that the style uses that sets it apart.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2017)

On front kicks - in my opinion, they are the kick most natural to the way the human body ambulates. We had a saying in my dojos, "When in doubt - throw a front kick"

As for high level kicking, the key is kicking in close. I had some nice long range kicks, but I made my money kicking in the kitchen. Had good teachers that drilled that into me. And, man, did they _drill_ it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 31, 2017)

Buka said:


> On front kicks - in my opinion, they are the kick most natural to the way the human body ambulates. We had a saying in my dojos, "When in doubt - throw a front kick"
> 
> As for high level kicking, the key is kicking in close. I had some nice long range kicks, but I made my money kicking in the kitchen. Had good teachers that drilled that into me. And, man, did they _drill_ it.


Kicking in close is a weak point for me. It's not something my primary art does, and I never got to it in any others if they taught it. So I've never really practiced it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 31, 2017)

The online class is better than learn from DVD yourself.

- If your teacher sends his video.
- You study it.
- You send your own video back to your teacher.
- Your teacher makes comments on it through E-mail.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 2, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The online class is better than learn from DVD yourself.
> 
> - If your teacher sends his video.
> - You study it.
> ...


 Better is relative. Better crap is still crap.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Better is relative. Better crap is still crap.


A quote from Richard Bowe (known in the NGAA as a "Bowe-ism"): "That's better. Don't get excited - I didn't say it was good."


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 2, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Better is relative. Better crap is still crap.


Someone who has desire to learn MA from online course is still "better" that those who doesn't want to do anything and just wants to be a couch potato.

When I was in school, I took the course "Logic Design Of Digital Systems" all by self-study without any teacher. Every week, after I had studied one chapter, I went to school to take one examine. If I passed that examine, I then spent next week, studied next chapter, and took another examine. I got "A" score at the end of that semester.

I don't think to self-learn MA is more difficult than to self-learn circuit design.


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## Gerry Seymour (Nov 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Someone who has desire to learn MA from online course is still "better" that those who doesn't want to do anything and just wants to be a couch potato.
> 
> When I was in school, I took the course "Logic Design Of Digital Systems" all by self-study without any teacher. Every week, after I had studied one chapter, I went to school to take one examine. If I passed that examine, I then spent next week, studied next chapter, and took another examine. I got "A" score at the end of that semester.
> 
> I don't think to self-learn MA is more difficult than to self-learn circuit design.


I disagree. With circuit design, you don't have to evaluate your own movement. I've learned programming, how to use programs, SQL, and other technical things by self-study (sometimes just with text). If I had learned my front kick by myself, I'd likely have developed bad form that might have robbed power, might have cost speed, and might even have put my hip or knee at risk of injury in trying to develop power and speed improperly.

That's not to say it can't be done. As someone pointed out, there used to be a lot more "self taught" MA. Someone had to start it. So it's possible, but harder and more problematic than a technical topic.


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## Bill Mattocks (Nov 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Someone who has desire to learn MA from online course is still "better" that those who doesn't want to do anything and just wants to be a couch potato.
> 
> When I was in school, I took the course "Logic Design Of Digital Systems" all by self-study without any teacher. Every week, after I had studied one chapter, I went to school to take one examine. If I passed that examine, I then spent next week, studied next chapter, and took another examine. I got "A" score at the end of that semester.
> 
> I don't think to self-learn MA is more difficult than to self-learn circuit design.


Yes, it is.  You can teach yourself to build a bicycle without ever having seen one in person.  You can't teach yourself to ride one without riding one.


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## geezer (Nov 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Better is relative.* Better crap is still crap*.



...unless you're dyslexic. Then it might be a fish.


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## JowGaWolf (Nov 3, 2017)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Better is relative. Better crap is still crap.


  being that I've had to clean up crap from animals and from babies.  I'm going to say that better crap is still preferable to horrible crap lol.   .
This guy probably wished he had the better crap, you know that solid log that doesn't spread lol.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 3, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I disagree. With circuit design, you don't have to evaluate your own movement. I've learned programming, how to use programs, SQL, and other technical things by self-study (sometimes just with text). If I had learned my front kick by myself, I'd likely have developed bad form that might have robbed power, might have cost speed, and might even have put my hip or knee at risk of injury in trying to develop power and speed improperly.
> 
> That's not to say it can't be done. As someone pointed out, there used to be a lot more "self taught" MA. Someone had to start it. So it's possible, but harder and more problematic than a technical topic.


Yes, someone had to start it, and it was probably many such someones way back in pre-history, experimenting with what they discovered through personal experience.  This probably began prior to the evolution of the modern Homo sapiens.

And I would be willing to bet that their methods were very simple for many many many generations.

By comparison, the martial arts of today, which I mean to include anything from the past few thousand years, are very likely far more sophisticated.  It became sophisticated gradually, over generations, through direct trial and error, which probably meant failure and injury and death.  

Nobody just started doing this stuff, without building upon what came before.  The chances of someone teaching themselves to some level that is remotely comparable to what is in today’s martial arts is essentially nil, especially without generations worth of that trial and error and death process that came before.

Personally, I do not accept the argument that someone can be essentially self-taught because back in some lost history someone started to figure out how to fight.


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## mograph (Dec 3, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't think to self-learn MA is more difficult than to self-learn circuit design.


My God. So many things wrong with this assertion. 

Just take one kick, for example. *Its execution is so full of so many possible variations, based on the individual's body shape, ergonomic habits, degree of stiffness, proprioception, sense of balance, ability to comprehend, and perception of body in space that they cannot possibly be covered or corrected in a DVD.*

Whereas, with circuit design, there are rules. Follow the rules, and the circuit works. *IN THEORY*. What about rusted wires? Hidden shorts? We should not compare circult design with martial arts, we should compare martial arts with becoming an electrical contractor, one who can install and troubleshoot under multiple circumstances based on first-hand knowledge gained from the experience of actually crawling up, down, drill into studs, recognizing dangerous connections, and more. 

In fact, martial arts is _more_ difficult, because it takes a great deal of experience to see the _internal_ mechanics that a new or intermediate student cannot. 
*
No. It is not like circuit design.*

Trust me. I am a largely self-taught trumpet player, and I just took a lesson from a New York pro last year. I now realized that I had been playing nowhere near my potential on my own: if I had a lesson with Warren earlier on, I might have been able to turn pro. Much of what I know is self-taught, and one cannot learn martial arts (to any degree of skill) from DVDs with no feedback from a qualified instructor.


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## Buka (Dec 4, 2017)

mograph said:


> My God. So many things wrong with this assertion.
> 
> Just take one kick, for example. *Its execution is so full of so many possible variations, based on the individual's body shape, ergonomic habits, degree of stiffness, proprioception, sense of balance, ability to comprehend, and perception of body in space that they cannot possibly be covered or corrected in a DVD.*
> 
> ...




You're right, probably not from a blank canvass, no. But consider....say Warren trained you early on, and continued to do so throughout the years. You improved both through your experience and Warren's experience. Now you've been at it a decade and you're becoming really good.

Then, years later, he sends you a DVD he thinks you should enjoy and study. I betcha' you could learn from it. I betcha'.


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## mograph (Dec 5, 2017)

Buka said:


> You're right, probably not from a blank canvass, no. But consider....say Warren trained you early on, and continued to do so throughout the years. You improved both through your experience and Warren's experience. Now you've been at it a decade and you're becoming really good.
> 
> Then, years later, he sends you a DVD he thinks you should enjoy and study. I betcha' you could learn from it. I betcha'.



As with most discussions, we probably need to clarify premises and meanings, particularly the word _*learn*_, yes?

I don't believe that one could learn trumpet or martial arts from DVDs, if DVDs were the only source. To me, the statement "learn martial arts from DVDs" means that the DVDs are the only source and in this instance, to learn something means to have _internalized_ it so that one can _perform at an intermediate-to-high level._

However, as you have suggested, I do agree that one can sense, attend to, retain and be able to recall _information_ from a DVD, and this aligns with the idea of learning circuit theory. In Warren's case, the information might be "compress your chops from the sides instead of the top and bottom." That would be good information. But after watching the DVD, did I learn to _do_ that, or did I just sense, attend to, retain and be able to recall the _information_ that I _should_ compress my chops like that, and did I just _attempt_ to compress my chops like that? Only _Warren_ would be able to tell if I actually learned to _do_ that to a level where I can achieve the goal: to produce a good, strong tone over the range of my instrument. To do that, Warren would have to be present to evaluate my progress.

However (2), I am willing to concede that if I had _Warren_'s skill at judging tone, I might be able to evaluate _myself_ and determine if I am actually achieving the goal. Now that would be the moderator of the effect of the DVD: the ability to self-evaluate.

Yes?


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## Buka (Dec 6, 2017)

The way I look at it is like this - DVDs are film, as an example - like the use of studying film for professional sports. I'm not talking about sports Martial Arts, just sports in general. There's a bootload of film study by the athletes and coaches. A rookie isn't going to get the same benefits as a seasoned, intelligent veteran. At least not at the beginning.

I'm not about to learn how to play a new sport from watching film. I might learn the rules, the general flow of the game etc, but that's about it. But if it has anything at all to do with punching, kicking and training, I can learn a lot, be it new, or something I'm experienced in. I've been studying film since 1979. Bought a movie camera and first filmed a boxing match on TV. It was Ray Leonard vs Andy Price. We would watch that film, which was in three minute reels, on a home movie screen, both at regular speed and in slow motion. Watched it, and many others, over and over again, after classes as we stretched out and relaxed. Picked up some good things, and it was fascinating.

Years later, I trained with Ray at my buddy's gym in L.A. When we first met I complimented him on one of the nicest combinations I had ever seen, which was the one he finished Price with, as I absent-mindedly threw it slowly while we talked. He said, Man, how do you know that? Then I recounted the story. I've been studying film ever since. When one of you guys post a youtube vid of boxing, karate, whatever, you know how many times I watch those damn things? Probably too many.

You mentioned,_ 
That would be good information. But after watching the DVD, did I learn to do that, or did I just sense, attend to, retain and be able to recall the information that I should compress my chops like that, and did I just attempt to compress my chops like that?
_
When studying film, about a subject you are experienced in, whatever new information you gain, still has to be practiced. And practiced to the degree that is already ingrained in you, which should be like a madman. Even if you're just able to recall the information, that's a good start. You just work it going forward.

As a guy who's watched film for a long time, to me, Youtube and DVDs must have come straight from God.


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