# Ok. CMA wizards... I ask you awesome identify skills again.



## TSDTexan (Sep 27, 2015)

So my art has this holy grail.
It comes from Chuan Fa. Or in Korean Kwon Bop
Alegedly it is shaolin long fist form that was taught in Mongolia

So Rim Jang Kwon
"Little Forest Temple Long Fist Law"


The description of the moves in So rim Jang Kwon (in our textbook )are very similar to two kung fu forms from the Chin Woo school. 

Gong Li Quan (功力拳) and 
Jie Quan (节拳). 

Jie Quan is called Chul Kwon by the practioners in the Sorim Jang Kwon video. You can compare the SRJK video to videos of Jie Quan and see the similarity. 






Now my question is what do you CMA guys would say the korean form in the video is closest to?


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## clfsean (Sep 27, 2015)

I'll get back to that when I'm not at the office. It looks like a non-descrip long fist (chang quan) of no particular flavor or origin. Not saying it's bad, but there are "things" missing to most CMA's.

Either way ... more later.


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## clfsean (Sep 27, 2015)

Ok for example sake, here's the same performer from the Shanghai Jing Mo performing. She's very clean, crisp & clear in demonstrating the forms. However with that, you loose power generation & she's not showing any intent of martial nature, just performance/documentation of the set.

This Jeet Kuen (Jie Quan) ... 





This is Gung Lik Kuen (Gong Li Quan)





The set you posted is showing some TCMA formulation & ideas of stringing techniques together. But to me it's as generic as Jeet Kuen & Gung Lik Kuen. It's really not "close" to either of them since they're all "vanilla". Jeet Kune & Gung Lik Kuen are introductory hand sets in the Jing Mo along with Tam Toi. 

They teach basic Northern long fist principals without being "flavor" specific since in the past, there's two or more systems taught under the same roof by multiple teachers at most Jing Mo schools. Once a student completed the "Jing Mo" curriculum, they would be given the opportunity to choose their preferred or desired style taught there.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2015)

clfsean said:


> I'll get back to that when I'm not at the office. It looks like a non-descrip long fist (chang quan) of no particular flavor or origin. Not saying it's bad, but there are "things" missing to most CMA's.
> 
> Either way ... more later.



It actually looks a bit like one of the Shaolin Long Fist forms my first sifu taught, with a little less snap and a few postures missing. But then the Shaolin Long Fist forms my first sifu taught were performance only forms

This is not my first sifu by the way, and I don't know this person either, but it will give you the idea


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2015)

This form






Although he did not do it as fast and I never learned this one, the no handed cart wheel was pretty much where I said...nope, think I stick with your (his) taiji, bagua and xingyi


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## clfsean (Sep 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> This form
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Old A level (I think) compulsory chang quan.


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## clfsean (Sep 27, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> It actually looks a bit like one of the Shaolin Long Fist forms my first sifu taught, with a little less snap and a few postures missing. But then the Shaolin Long Fist forms my first sifu taught were performance only forms
> 
> This is not my first sifu by the way, and I don't know this person either, but it will give you the idea



These are more drill than set with the multiple repeating sequences on both sides. Like Tan Tui or Wu Bu Quan or maybe even something he put together himself.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 27, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Old A level (I think) compulsory chang quan.



Yup, that's the stuff he taught, since he learned it all in a Wushu college while Mao was still alive.

That is what the OP's video made me think of, the changquan my first sifu taught.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 27, 2015)

This is another that has been offered as being "the candidate" most likely to be so rim jang quan.

Our founder Hwang Kee learned it from the Korean Founder of Kwon Bop Bu.

The problem is the 8th and 9th Dans who know refuse to perform it on camera or for anyone who isnt 8th or higher.
They allegedly haven't taught it to Chuck Norris.
Here is another candidate that has been put forward.





We have written instructions in the korean version og Hwange Kees book 1958 edition
*Written Instructions*
Translation from Hwang Kee's book:


This military exercise is a same overflow as "Naianghi" form. but it's movements starts more from the middle than "Naianghi" form and moves toward left and upward.
The ready stance is in triangle position and relaxed.
Facing front, raise elbows in horizontal position.
This form starts with the extension of the right hand.
the left hand hits the right hand at the point and then the hands cross each other move hands toward the right center.
Make one step to the right, face front, make a same position as #3
The body and eyes face the same direction. Turn left and lift the right leg to left side take 1 step and face front of form...both hands will be raised
Keep the left side same step to a horse stance with the left hands in fighting stance.
The right foot will stay the same. The left foot will face left side. Turn toward the front. The body will face front.
Facing left, the left foot will stay in place. Make right foot attack (type of kick not clear) and land in defensive stance.
In the same stance, the left arm will extend toward the right side, the right fist will turn downward
The right foot will steps to right side and bends at the knee (probably front stance). The front side of your body will face the front of form and your eyes will be looking to the left side. The left foot will be extended. The right hand will block upward. The left hand will block upward (probably reverse high block).
The left foot will face left. The body and eyes will face towards the back of the form and repeat the motions in #8
Same motions as #9.
The left foot stays the same. The right foot comes together towards the left foot. Your head turns towards the back of the form and make a high punch.
Lift left foot and raise body upward.
The right foot will stay on floor and pivot and the left foot will face the right side with the head turned to the right. Same action as #7.
Twist to a reverse front stance facing left side of form. Head turned to the right side and prepare for attack (defensive stance). Execute a left punch and backfist.
The right foot will make a front kick to the front land in front stance
Facing the right side the left foot will stay right side and the right foot will step once and make front kick.
Same as #20 except reverse left and right.
Same as #21 except reverse left and right.
Turn toward left, the left foot will be make a fighting stance and execute a middle punch.
The right fist will punch the left side
Same as #24 except reverse left and right
Same as #25 except reverse left and right. Open the left hand and push forward
The left foot will lift to the right side. The right side will be centered and lift the left foot, and make a right hand high block and a simultaneous left arm low block.
With both hands push forward. Then make a right hand low block. The head and body will face the left side of the form.
The left foot will stay the same. the left hand will open and push forward
The right foot will turn towards the back of the form and bend at the knee
Step forward one step
Kick with left foot. The right hand will be open and hold the left hand.
The right foot will execute a front kick before the left foot touches the ground.
Facing the back of the form, put the feet together. the arme will make a middle block (probably an inside to outside block).
Turning hips to the left, the body will face the right side of the form. The left foot steps one step, both hands will be the same as #34.
The right foot moves forward, the left hand will punch forward. the right hand will punch to the right side.
The left foot will step forward
the right foot will step forward, jump in the air and turn to the left side of the form. The face and body will continue to face the front. Stay in the horse stance. The left hand will face downward.
The right foot stays the same. The left foot moves to the right bringing both feet together. The left hand makes a middle block and the right hand extends forward.
Same as #7
Same as #8
Turn left, attack the middle...same as #20
Same as #42, except reverse the left and right
Same as #42, the opposite of #43
Turn left, the head and body will face the right side of the form. The right foot will stay on the ground. The left foot will lift and the execute a right high block.
At the time the left foot touches the ground. The body will be facing the rear of the form. The upper body will turn towards the back of the form and both hands will stretch forward.
Same as #46, the right foot will step forward. the left foot will be facing the right side of the form. Execute a right punch.
Before the left foot lands, the right foot will make a front kick
Both feet land together, twist hips to the rear, head and body will front of the form. Make a left middle block and a simultaneous right punch. Repeat #s 46, 47, 48, and 49.
Right foot moves forward, the body and head will face the left side of the form
Step with the right foot, the body and head will face the rear of the form
Raise the right foot and make a high block with the right hand while making a left hand low block
Both hands will come together, keep the right foot raised and reverse the hands
Bend the right knee and stomp with the left foot and repeat the moves from #s 52, 53, 54
The right foot stays the same. The left foot will step forward one step to the right side of the form. The head and body will turn to the right side of the form.
The left foot will make a front kick and the right hand will be chambered and ready for an attack.
The same motion as #55 and #56 except reverse the left and the right
The same motion as #57 except reverse the left and the right
The left foot will face front, make a right low block to the front of the form
Same as #11, except the body and head will be in different direction'
Same motion as #12 except the direction
Facing the front of the form, the body turns to the left side, the right foot will come together with the left foot.
Bend the knees and extend both arms, the right fist will punch upward.
Jump and turn to the left. The body and head turn to the rear of the form. Land in a horse stance
The left hand makes a block to the front and the right fist makes a low block
The left foot will come to the right foot, the body and head will be facing the rear of the form. the left fist makes a low block and the right fist will execute a punch.
The left foot will face the right side and you will take one step. the left foot will be in a fighting stance. The body and head will face the right side of the form.
Facing East, the right foot will move one step. Make a left then right punch.
Same motion as #41.
Same motion as #66 except the direction and the body and head will face the front
Same motion as #70 except the left foot will raise to the right knee.
Same motion as #7
Same motion as #7
Same motion as #9
Same motion as #20
Same motion as #21 Reverse of #75
Same motion as #76, Reverse the direction
Same motion as #77, Reverse the direction
Same motion as #78, Reverse the direction
The face and head will face the rear, same motion as #55.
Turning towards the right side, same motion as #56
As the left foot touches the ground land in a fighting stance with your head facing the left side of the form. Make a left punch and chamber the right fist.
Same motion as #82. Except the reverse the left and the right.
Same motion as #3
Same motion as #2


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## TSDTexan (Sep 27, 2015)

August 1984.
Han Chi Sup (former Head instrucator the Soobahkdo Moo Duk Kwan Home Dojang (hanbu dojo) in Korea) 

Han Chi Sup was practicing in the Trent Gymnasium on Yongsan Army Post in Seoul, South Korea
He was observed by John Hancock (a now, former soobahkdo and shorin ryu BB.)
Here are Johns exat words:

To my right, alone and absorbed in his own efforts, Han immersed himself in the execution of a rather long and intricate series of movements. His motions were filled with power, yet they were fluid and sinuous.  There was pattern and purpose to his dance.

He whirled first one way, then another. What so strongly captivated me was that the form was punctuated with powerful focal points yet was distinctly circular in overall design. Because I had previously been exposed to the Chinese martial arts, I recognized it as being of Chinese origin, yet never had I seen such a clear demonstration of power by anyone performing a similar routine. I would later learn that the hyung was known as so rim jang kwon (Shaolin long fist).

Because I am not affiliated with the Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan corporation my access to the people who know is deeply curtailed.


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## clfsean (Sep 27, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> This is another that has been offered as being "the candidate" most likely to be so rim jang quan.
> 
> Our founder Hwang Kee learned it from the Korean Founder of Kwon Bop Bu.
> 
> ...


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## TSDTexan (Sep 27, 2015)

*Weh Ga kRyu)*
Weh Ga Ryu (Outside House Style) in China is mainly recognized as So Rim Jang Kwon by some within Hwang Kees moo duk kwan tradition 

Is that vider "Weh Gah"?


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## TSDTexan (Sep 27, 2015)

it is apparent that Hwang Kee, CSJ saw value in both Neh Ga Ryu and Weh Ga Ryu, and thus created a new system called Choong Ga (中 家), or Middle House.

The Chil Sung Hyung have characteristics of both Neh Ga and Weh Ga. Some techniques are light, fast, and powerful, where others focus more on breath, energy, heaviness, and Sun Sok Mi (line, speed, beauty) and we transition from one to the other with ease.

Having both elements of Neh Ga and Weh Ga, the Chil Sung forms are truly representative of Hwang Kee

Choong Ga Ryu, leveraging the advantages of both philosophies of thought.

Within the Chil Sung Hyung, however, you will find some techniques that neither fit the traditional mold of Neh Ga or Weh Ga.

These are uniquely Soo Bahk and come directly from the Kwon Bup (chuan fa) section of the _Moo Yei Do Bo Tong Ji (_武藝圖譜通志)_. 
_
The senior yudansha tang-soodoin have allowed this form to slip away through neglect and pursue chil sung.

Which leads to articles like this.

Tang Soo Do Ho Sin Sul Home


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## clfsean (Sep 28, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> *Weh Ga kRyu)*
> Weh Ga Ryu (Outside House Style) in China is mainly recognized as So Rim Jang Kwon by some within Hwang Kees moo duk kwan tradition
> 
> Is that vider "Weh Gah"?



Wai Ga ... External Family (Style). That's about the same as saying football is a sport. 

Chong Kuen (Chang Quan) is a classification of styles. Long fist. Adding Siu Lum (Shaolin) just notates a possible origin or grouping (vs Hui, etc...)


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## clfsean (Sep 28, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> it is apparent that Hwang Kee, CSJ saw value in both Neh Ga Ryu and Weh Ga Ryu, and thus created a new system called Choong Ga (中 家), or Middle House.
> 
> The Chil Sung Hyung have characteristics of both Neh Ga and Weh Ga. Some techniques are light, fast, and powerful, where others focus more on breath, energy, heaviness, and Sun Sok Mi (line, speed, beauty) and we transition from one to the other with ease.
> 
> ...



No TCMA is completely external or internal. They both share the same principles, in their own way. It's the concept of "yum/yeurng" (yin/yang). They all end up at basically the same exact place, but the paths taken are where differences lie.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 28, 2015)

clfsean said:


> No TCMA is completely external or internal. They both share the same principles, in their own way. It's the concept of "yum/yeurng" (yin/yang). They all end up at basically the same exact place, but the paths taken are where differences lie.



Yes. What Hwang Kee was actually trying to do was integrate them. Hwang Kee Studied both of the seperate hard external and soft interal arts.

Hwang was building a KMA from Okinaiwan Chuan-Fa,
Taiji (88 and 150 forms) as well as a few other Northern and Southern Arts.


His chill sung kata series are both Hard and Soft and have essential aspects of both.

He was taking one road and at the same time using the other road and some cross country off road work to build a third road.


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## clfsean (Sep 28, 2015)

Ok ... this might come off a bit harsh, but it's not meant to be. It's just the way things are structured. 



TSDTexan said:


> Yes. What Hwang Kee was actually trying to do was integrate them. Hwang Kee Studied both of the seperate hard external and soft interal arts.



Awesome but that's not the best way. Had he stayed to completion, he would've most likely received both. 



TSDTexan said:


> Hwang was building a KMA from Okinaiwan Chuan-Fa,
> Taiji (88 and 150 forms) as well as a few other Northern and Southern Arts.



Okinawan Kempo? It's essentially Southern CMA from Fujian. It's heavily internal based but as with most things, they get farther from the source, things change. Northern & Southern arts? Not always complimentary. Taiji with all of it... your body wouldn't know what's going on due to competing & conflicting mechanical principals. 



TSDTexan said:


> His chill sung kata series are both Hard and Soft and have essential aspects of both.



ok ... I'm not familiar with them and so can't really speak to them. 



TSDTexan said:


> He was taking one road and at the same time using the other road and some cross country off road work to build a third road.



But it only works if those roads go somewhere other wise it's just running back & forth between the roads spending time rather than moving forward. 

Enjoy!


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 28, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Taiji (88 and 150 forms) .



Means nothing actually. My main taiji style has the long form which can be 88 forms or 105 forms, It depends on how  you want to count

And you need additional info, Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, etc.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 28, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Ok ... this might come off a bit harsh, but it's not meant to be. It's just the way things are structured.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Thank you for the response. 
I dont think you are being harsh. You are pretty fair imho.


You stated:
_Had he stayed to completion, he would've most likely received both_.

All in all Hwang Kee spent 20 years in manchuria china working internal arts and Taiji was the primary study. I think he was at mastery level.


He had taiji as something for senior dans. Not for brand new students. It was Purely Hard then Purely soft. Up until he created the Chil Sung katas which integrate both.

The chil sungs made the previous forms get pushed to the back burner. 

I really desire this form for my personal study.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 28, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Means nothing actually. My main taiji style has the long form which can be 88 forms or 105 forms, It depends on how  you want to count
> 
> And you need additional info, Chen, Zhaobao, Yang, Wu, Wu/Hao, Sun, etc.



Yes it was Yang Family, but Hwang Kee never wrote the chinese name of the Jang family teacher. He used the Korean name for his Yang Taiji family style teach much to the dismay of researchers trying to track his teacher's school down in manchuria.

Yang, Kuk Jin was the name HK used.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 28, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Yes it was Yang Family, but Hwang Kee never wrote the chinese name of the Jang family teacher. He used the Korean name for his Yang Taiji family style teach much to the dismay of researchers trying to track his teacher's school down in manchuria.
> 
> Yang, Kuk Jin was the name HK used.



Just read a TSD history that says they think Yang, kuk jin was Yang Zhen Guo. That is not likely since they are throwing around the year 1936 and 1940. Yang Zhanguo was 8 in 1936


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## Flying Crane (Sep 28, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Thank you for the response.
> I dont think you are being harsh. You are pretty fair imho.
> 
> 
> ...


Your desire for the form would be better served if you find a competent sifu in the Chinese system represented, or similar.  The form looks like some variant of what is often found in the fundamental and basic training in a lot of the Northern schools.  Find a good sifu, you will get a similar form with the benefit of the proper background to understand it and reap the benefits it has to offer.

Usually, when one system adopts a form from another system, a lot of the necessary background does not get carried over with it.  It becomes a hollow and meaningless dance.  This form is not advanced and is not secret.  But it still requires proper instruction in order for it to have value.


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## clfsean (Sep 28, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Your desire for the form would be better served if you find a competent sifu in the Chinese system represented, or similar.  The form looks like some variant of what is often found in the fundamental and basic training in a lot of the Northern schools.  Find a good sifu, you will get a similar form with the benefit of the proper background to understand it and reap the benefits it has to offer.
> 
> Usually, when one system adopts a form from another system, a lot of the necessary background does not get carried over with it.  It becomes a hollow and meaningless dance.  This form is not advanced and is not secret.  But it still requires proper instruction in order for it to have value.



Nuggets of goodness as always!!


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## TSDTexan (Sep 29, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> Just read a TSD history that says they think Yang, kuk jin was Yang Zhen Guo. That is not likely since they are throwing around the year 1936 and 1940. Yang Zhanguo was 8 in 1936



Yeah I heard that one too.
If only HK had written his sifu's name in Hanji it would be real easy.


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## TSDTexan (Sep 29, 2015)

Flying Crane said:


> Your desire for the form would be better served if you find a competent sifu in the Chinese system represented, or similar.  The form looks like some variant of what is often found in the fundamental and basic training in a lot of the Northern schools.  Find a good sifu, you will get a similar form with the benefit of the proper background to understand it and reap the benefits it has to offer.
> 
> Usually, when one system adopts a form from another system, a lot of the necessary background does not get carried over with it.  It becomes a hollow and meaningless dance.  This form is not advanced and is not secret.  But it still requires proper instruction in order for it to have value.




Absolutely.  Without someone to teach the framework for understanding the motions and techiques, and how to transfer them into usable or street action, the journey is interuppted.  However is a sifi has spent sufficient time to insure perfect form, posture and motion are transferred.

The journeyman can be taught the meaning by another.
Or the journey resumed.
This is sometimes the case when a sifu dies of old age or a student practioner has to move.

Then... Some rare and gifted folks through meditation can have flashed of insight and awareness and make discoveries.

Things like Naifanchi and Sanchin can be studied for a lifetime and the well doesn't run dry.


It is my observation that system founders tend to be very promiscuous students. They tend to draw from many many tradtions, sometimes they are deeply rooted in two or more systems other times deeply rooted in one with lots of shallow suface roots in others.

The founder of WadoRyu spent thirty years gaining mastery in his base art. Then learned Okinawan Karate from two masters. One taught him 16 forms over a few years. The other taught him 1 kata.... but with very great depth.


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