# Wing Chun just doesn't look right!



## geezer (Oct 10, 2008)

I was browsing through some good comments on the "Power Generation" thread and once again I had to sigh and admit that the problem is really that Wing Chun / Tsun just looks all _wrong_. They've got this wimpy little narrow stance, they stand up too straight, their punches are these weak-looking straight line jabs. All speed and no body power. I mean, do you _ever_ see these guys lean forward and set their weight into a punch? And that chicken wing-flapping chi-sau stuff? People don't want to see that garbage. They want to see big, buff real men with real power letting loose with some big guns. Ha!

On the other hand, there's something to be said for subtlety. There are a few of us who don't obsess over appearance, and could'nt care less about image. WC/WT doesn't have to be obvious. _We_ know it works, and that's enough.


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## theletch1 (Oct 10, 2008)

As an aikido-ka I can feel your pain.  We get the same stuff about balance breaking techniques and energy redirection.  Ah, well.  WE know it works and I've always enjoyed being underestimated.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was browsing through some good comments on the "Power Generation" thread and once again I had to sigh and admit that the problem is really that Wing Chun / Tsun just looks all _wrong_. They've got this wimpy little narrow stance, they stand up too straight, their punches are these weak-looking straight line jabs. All speed and no body power. I mean, do you _ever_ see these guys lean forward and set their weight into a punch? And that chicken wing-flapping chi-sau stuff? People don't want to see that garbage. They want to see big, buff real men with real power letting loose with some big guns. Ha!
> 
> On the other hand, there's something to be said for subtlety. There are a few of us who don't obsess over appearance, and could'nt care less about image. WC/WT doesn't have to be obvious. _We_ know it works, and that's enough.


 If you lean in to punch you have posture issues and recovery time issues.
Sean


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## mook jong man (Oct 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was browsing through some good comments on the "Power Generation" thread and once again I had to sigh and admit that the problem is really that Wing Chun / Tsun just looks all _wrong_. They've got this wimpy little narrow stance, they stand up too straight, their punches are these weak-looking straight line jabs. All speed and no body power. I mean, do you _ever_ see these guys lean forward and set their weight into a punch? And that chicken wing-flapping chi-sau stuff? People don't want to see that garbage. They want to see big, buff real men with real power letting loose with some big guns. Ha!
> 
> On the other hand, there's something to be said for subtlety. There are a few of us who don't obsess over appearance, and could'nt care less about image. WC/WT doesn't have to be obvious. _We_ know it works, and that's enough.


 
We could make our selves more macho looking if we all got a crap load of tattoos and a shaved head , wait there i'm almost bald so i'm at least half way there just gotta get the tatts .


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2008)

geezer said:


> People don't want to see that garbage. They want to see big, buff real men with real power letting loose with some big guns. Ha!


 
who cares what people want to see?


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 10, 2008)

Too bad they/them do not understand the real principles behind the system..
but I would tend to agree,the western mind is full of Heros being depicted as tall,muscular and handsome.I spent nearly 15 years studying the Greek culture,particularly the Spartans.....Hollywood is way off the mark...Native American warfare..again off the mark.Who knows how much of History has been misconstrued.Take for example Sifu bernd Wagner (rip) he was perhaps one of the best examples of Wing Tsun I have ever seen, definitely in the technical department,not relying on sheer strenght or stature,but rather skill and speed....my opine...just chatter....


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## yak sao (Oct 10, 2008)

How many times have you had someone drop by one of your classes who has studied another martial art (usually a hard style) and watched them walk away practically scratching their head in bewilderment?

I've always said that WT/WC doesn't demo well.


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## paulus (Oct 11, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> We could make our selves more macho looking if we all got a crap load of tattoos and a shaved head


It's a popular look on youtube!

Some stuff does demo well (but I agree that a lot doesn't). Gary Lam's videos look good and he doesn't compromise on the principles.


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## graychuan (Oct 11, 2008)

geezer said:


> I was browsing through some good comments on the "Power Generation" thread and once again I had to sigh and admit that the problem is really that Wing Chun / Tsun just looks all _wrong_. They've got this wimpy little narrow stance, they stand up too straight, their punches are these weak-looking straight line jabs. All speed and no body power. I mean, do you _ever_ see these guys lean forward and set their weight into a punch? And that chicken wing-flapping chi-sau stuff? People don't want to see that garbage. They want to see big, buff real men with real power letting loose with some big guns. Ha!
> 
> On the other hand, there's something to be said for subtlety. There are a few of us who don't obsess over appearance, and could'nt care less about image. WC/WT doesn't have to be obvious. _We_ know it works, and that's enough.


 
Good Wing Chun is felt but never seen.


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## matsu (Oct 11, 2008)

*Originally Posted by mook jong man **

*
_*We could make our selves more macho looking if we all got a crap load of tattoos and a shaved head*_

_being of that persuasion i am deeply hurt byt that comment!:angel:_

i have to say sometimes i wonder what people see when they look at stuff on youtube.or is it just fact they cant bear thought that something else is effective and poss better than what they chose to do, or that is harder and takes longer to develop.
i did karate for nearly 10 yrs and felt after a very short time i could kick pretty well and step and punch/block to the standard-8months in and i feel i know  nothing of real effective wing chun and that my technique is not that effective..........yet!
altho just 4 weeks on the mook jong has really helped!!


_matsu_


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## paulus (Oct 11, 2008)

graychuan said:


> Good Wing Chun is felt but never seen.


I agree. If it gets the job done, who cares what it looks like?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 11, 2008)

I have always been impressed by a good Wing Chun/Tsun practitioner!


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## dungeonworks (Oct 11, 2008)

matsu said:


> *Originally Posted by mook jong man **
> 
> *
> _*We could make our selves more macho looking if we all got a crap load of tattoos and a shaved head*_
> ...



We have similar backgrounds and WC experience Matsu.  I too gained ability quickly in Karate.  I haven't been shown the Jong yet, but I *110% understand* when you mention not feeling "effective" yet in Wing Chun.


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## geezer (Oct 11, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Too bad they/them do not understand the real principles behind the system..
> but I would tend to agree,the western mind is full of Heros being depicted as tall,muscular and handsome.I spent nearly 15 years studying the Greek culture,particularly the Spartans.....Hollywood is way off the mark...Native American warfare..again off the mark.Who knows how much of History has been misconstrued.Take for example Sifu bernd Wagner (rip) he was perhaps one of the best examples of Wing Tsun I have ever seen, definitely in the technical department,not relying on sheer strenght or stature,but rather skill and speed....my opine...just chatter....



History misconstrued? You mean that Leonides and his 300 Spartans didn't have their chests waxed and go into battle without breast plates so everyone could admire their buffness? Say it isn't so.

Speaking of which, your sifu, Emin is cool, he's the exception. Ripped, scarey and very very proficient.

But, I still remember the first Wing Chun school I walked into back in '79. After training in wrestling and Shaolin, I just about laughed at the crazy stuff they were doing. Still, it was the only _authentic_ Chinese stuff in my area, so I ended up giving it a try. I paid cash up front for a three month intro. After a month or so I began to understand a little of what it was all about. Now it's 2008, and I'm still trying to figure it out! Cool, huh?


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## profesormental (Oct 12, 2008)

Greetings.

I made the error of, with good faith and a sharing heart and attitude, go to other people and schools to share demos and such.

Some now ridicule me. They didn't see it. A friend of mine said that he knows me when he went there and some students started making fun of me.

Yet the one that FELT it does treat me with respect.

I also went to tournaments and did some forms. And lost.

One judge told me "You should do different forms. That was a training form."

o_0

WHAT?

Just ONE guy came to me and told me he saw the advanced subtleties that I did.

Just one in a bout 5 tournaments. Go figure.

So, some flash is useful to get them in the door and in a receptive state of mind as to be able to feel this and open to the possibilities.

Or not. It is not out duty to instruct everyone... as long as people tink it is garbage, the advantage is ours.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 13, 2008)

I know what you guys mean. Most demos are done by scrawny little guys who look like they would snap if you hit them

I dont know whether youve seen our Kamon streetfighting clip

If you go to youtube and type in Kamon streetfighting youll see big blokes getting thrown around by Kevin Chan. Im one of the big blokes, and although it looks a bit like we are pulling the punches  they were actually real. I got knocked out with an elbow and the other guy got a broken rib. Saying that we still went light, but it gives an idea of what a chunner could do if he wanted

There are a few tough guys around who do wing chun. Sifu Grados, Sifu Boztepe, Sifu (Kevin) Chan, Sifu Sinclair, Sifu Orr

And these are the guys who we know of!!!!

With punching power remember that boxers and kickboxers do run out of steam
As a big guy, I would struggle being a professional boxer due to the fitness requirements
Yet with wing chun, I can deliver powerful hits at any range as many times as I like without getting too tired

If you try doing a boxers punch at close range where space is premium, you will struggle

That is not to say a boxers punch wont knock your head off. Its just that if that same wimpy guy (who you mentioned earlier) tried to attack me with a boxers punch, he would have no chance


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## matsu (Oct 13, 2008)

some very good and motivational points kamon.

thank you for that

matsu


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## TaiChiTJ (Oct 13, 2008)

I always liked the demos Master Augustine Fong did of WC when he came up to Phoenix. They were entertaining.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 14, 2008)

Mr Geezer,Yeah, here's the scary part,I work in a machine shop,so my musculature is very sinewy,at the seminar I was constantly being told to relax even though I was.Sifu Emin as big and muscular as he is was totally relaxed almost stuffed pillow relaxed,however the speed & power that he can transmit is phenomenal,the same kind of force that I have felt with Sifu Steve Brandon and GGM Leung Ting.When all the contibuting factors come into play....Incredible, pure uprooting penetrating power.


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## Dansel (Oct 16, 2008)

food for thought, emin boztepe is clearly an excellant chunner, but please would ne1 be talking bout him if he didn't challenge Cheung.


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## yak sao (Oct 16, 2008)

Dansel said:


> food for thought, emin boztepe is clearly an excellant chunner, but please would ne1 be talking bout him if he didn't challenge Cheung.


 

Maybe not. Would anyone really be doing WT,WC,VT, or have heard of Yip Man if it weren't for Bruce Lee.

The thing is, certain things thrust you into the limelight. It's what you have backing you up when you get there that makes you either a shooting star or an enduring presence.


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## Dansel (Oct 16, 2008)

The difference there is that bruce lee, was a movie star who introduced wing chun to the west. Yip man has many great students, who all have fame in the martial arts world for their skill alone. Yip Man and Bruce Lee are in a differnt league than Boztepe.

I think the real question is would you have heard of Boztepe if william cheung hadn't chose to do martial arts. Furthermore it wasn't a great fight neway, against someone who has said alot of controversial things and made alot of outrageous claims, as people from the majority of lineages agree.


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## geezer (Oct 16, 2008)

[_quote=Dansel;1055409] Yip Man and Bruce Lee are in a differnt league than Boztepe...
 I think the real question is would you have heard of Boztepe if william cheung hadn't chose to do martial arts... _


> Yep, Emin Boztepe would be well known with or without the William Cheung fight. Some people are like that. They seek the limelight...and if they have what it takes, the limelight seeks them.
> 
> As far as being in a different league...well it's like comparing apples and oranges. As a natural _fighter_ rather than a technical wizard, perhaps it would be better to comapare Emin to Grandmaster Yip's first teacher, Chan Wah Shun.
> 
> Finally, call me cynical, but I don't think anybody in the Martial Arts gets famous through skill alone... they either promote themselves or somebody else promotes them and builds their rep. Great skill and great humility will keep you teaching a lucky few in your backyard. Anonymously.


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## dungeonworks (Oct 16, 2008)

Aside from Cheung, who has Boztepe ever fought?  I cannot find anything on the web about his fighting history or their opponents other than fighting with racists in his youth over his ethnicity (fighting solves everything! LOL).

I seen the video of he and Cheung fighting and for the life of me cannot understand the significance of it.  It was a terrible fight and not any better than most of the fights on YouTube.  Bullshido and other WC/WC hating sites always reffer to it when bashing our style.  I have seen some bits of his videos and he apears to be a phenominal physical specimen and noticed he is an actor as well.  It would be my guess he became famous as an actor and martial artist...but really, so far as I know he is only famous in the small Wing Tsun/Wing Chun world.  Nobody outside the Kwoon knows who he really is here in Midwestern USA.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 16, 2008)

Well, consider that he was one of Sifu Keith Kernspecht's top students,often found teaching at seminars across Europe while under Sifu's watchful eye.Who would lie about that? He is still a practician level master,and does not lay folly of calling himself a Grand-master.I did do some homework.Yes there is not much in the way of Wing Tsun in the midwest,I grew up primarily in 
St louis.There is a Wing Tsun school in Illinois. I found Leung Ting Wing Tsun while in the middle of BFE in Billings,MT. go figure.....There are a lot of Famous things overseas we here in the USA do not know or find out about until later.Kwon Jae Hwa's the real shizznit Tae Kwon Do for instance,was all but unknown to the USA for the longest time.First Europe then the USA that is how it has always been,as far as I know.
Wing Tsun Europe in the 70's...later the States.....blah...blah....blah..


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 17, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> Aside from Cheung, who has Boztepe ever fought? I cannot find anything on the web about his fighting history or their opponents other than fighting with racists in his youth over his ethnicity (fighting solves everything! LOL).
> 
> I seen the video of he and Cheung fighting and for the life of me cannot understand the significance of it. It was a terrible fight and not any better than most of the fights on YouTube. Bullshido and other WC/WC hating sites always reffer to it when bashing our style. I have seen some bits of his videos and he apears to be a phenominal physical specimen and noticed he is an actor as well. It would be my guess he became famous as an actor and martial artist...but really, so far as I know he is only famous in the small Wing Tsun/Wing Chun world. Nobody outside the Kwoon knows who he really is here in Midwestern USA.


 
Thats the trouble with wing chun - it isn't a sport so you can't record fights like say boxing or kickboxing 
The clips I have seen of Boztepe have impressed me. I have one of him doing chi sao on my phone
Personally, I couldn't care if he hasn't had a fight - it wouldn't make him any less good at wing chun!

My master Kevin Chan was a very well known streetfighter when he was younger and has no problem taking someone aside who starts on him
Yet I doubt you will find any record of his fights
All I know is, I would never take the guy on!

The Boztepe Cheung fight for me was a great moment. Some people simply need to be put in their place
I love to learn and I would never for one moment proclaim to have secret techniques or be the only one true style of wing chun
Boztepe spoke for all the wing chun guys out there and I thank him for doing that
The fight was a mess, but that's how fights that have no rules are!!!


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## paulus (Oct 17, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> I have one of him doing chi sao on my phone


Phones don't hit back 



Kamon Guy said:


> The Boztepe Cheung fight for me was a great moment. Some people simply need to be put in their place


It's a shame the footage isn't a little clearer, it's hard to see what's going on there. I've seen other clips where EB looks very fluid.


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## bully (Oct 17, 2008)

paulus said:


> *Phones don't hit back*
> 
> 
> It's a shame the footage isn't a little clearer, it's hard to see what's going on there. I've seen other clips where EB looks very fluid.



Just imagining Bruce saying that....


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## Dansel (Oct 17, 2008)

qwksilver61 said:


> Well, consider that he was one of Sifu Keith Kernspecht's top students,often found teaching at seminars across Europe while under Sifu's watchful eye.


 
the only famous person known outside the wt lineage is leung ting, noobody really knows anything bout boztepe and kernspect unless u talk to a wt'er and to compare boztepe to a ma historical figure is hilarious, in 100 years people will still have heard of bruce lee, yip man, chan wa shun and no one will no of william cheung ,emin who? and kernspect who?

There are many wc'ers and vt'ers who r famous for there skill alone, wt is the only lineage that encourage self promotion and seeking lime light.


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## Dansel (Oct 17, 2008)

p.s the only true masters are those who have proved there skills in many fights, people like wong shun leung, tsui sheung tin and all of the other fathers and mothers of the style. U can add as many clips as u want shwing chi sao and other demo's a thousand of which aren't worth knowledge of one clear cut fight.


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## dungeonworks (Oct 17, 2008)

Kamon Guy said:


> Thats the trouble with wing chun - it isn't a sport so you can't record fights like say boxing or kickboxing
> The clips I have seen of Boztepe have impressed me. I have one of him doing chi sao on my phone
> Personally, I couldn't care if he hasn't had a fight - it wouldn't make him any less good at wing chun!



I remember reading about him having a great number of fights and challenge type  matches.  I thought maybe there was a video somewhere, maybe like the Gracie's did in "Gracie Jiujitsu in action".  Speaking of Gracies and Boztepe, I heard something to the effect that they would not fight him or vice versa???



> The Boztepe Cheung fight for me was a great moment. Some people simply need to be put in their place
> I love to learn and I would never for one moment proclaim to have secret techniques or be the only one true style of wing chun
> Boztepe spoke for all the wing chun guys out there and I thank him for doing that
> The fight was a mess, but that's how fights that have no rules are!!!



Interesting back story to that.  I never knew all that other than Boztepe challenged Cheung at a seminar.  What I meant was that the fight itself was bad....be it Wing Chun/Wing Tsun or anyother martial art of any name.  With all due respect, it looked like a playground brawl.


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## geezer (Oct 17, 2008)

Dansel said:


> in 100 years people will still have heard of bruce lee, yip man, chan wa shun and no one will no of william cheung ,emin who? and kernspect who?
> 
> There are many wc'ers and vt'ers who r famous for there skill alone, wt is the only lineage that encourage self promotion and seeking lime light.


 
Who knows if anybody will even remember Wing Chun in 100 years? If they remember anyone, it might be Bruce Lee. If Wing Chun is still practiced, it will be the"ancestors" of the lineages, such as Great Grandmaster Yip and his forebearers who live on in legend.

But I daresay that if Wing Chun is practiced a century from now, it will be in part due to the efforts of those who have worked to spread it, systematize it's training, and move it forward as a fighting system that is applicable in modern times. Leung Ting, Keith Kernspecht and Emin Boztepe are among those who have done just that. My hat is off to all of them.

Finally, I'm glad you find my comments "hillarious". I'm always pleased to amuse, Dansel. And give my best to Gretel.


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## qwksilver61 (Oct 17, 2008)

Dansel ,What is your linneage?Who is your Sifu?Have you ever attended a WT seminar?Just questions


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## Dansel (Oct 20, 2008)

Geezer, again i chuckle, it is a style that has been practiced for hundreds of years already, and i will still be practiced by by somebody in another hundred years, even it it isn't as popular as it is now, and those practitioners will learn the history.

I'm not trying to wind u up here, i think WT is as an efficient fighting system as any lineage, just don't like the structure and brand that goes with it my main lineage is TST but i have studied WT for about a year as well, and respect many good fighters there, as i have seen them prove themselves and don't seek attention for it.


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## KamonGuy2 (Oct 20, 2008)

dungeonworks said:


> I remember reading about him having a great number of fights and challenge type matches. I thought maybe there was a video somewhere, maybe like the Gracie's did in "Gracie Jiujitsu in action". Speaking of Gracies and Boztepe, I heard something to the effect that they would not fight him or vice versa???.


Yeah there was a lot of talk (when the UFC first started) from Bozteppi that the Gracies weren't that good etc, and it got all heated. For ages they would invite him down to their dojo or come to his but it never happened. Why it never happened was ever explained. Maybe the Gracies backed down or maybe Bozteppis backed down
It is entirely possible that Bozteppi didn't want to get a reputation for accepting challenge matches (once you go down that road, you would get every Tom Dick and Harry knocking at your door)

He is a known streetfighter but like I said you can't exactly record that - same as Bruce Lee. But I don't need a fight history to tell me that Bruce Lee was a good fighter and great martial artist! 




dungeonworks said:


> Interesting back story to that. I never knew all that other than Boztepe challenged Cheung at a seminar. What I meant was that the fight itself was bad....be it Wing Chun/Wing Tsun or anyother martial art of any name. With all due respect, it looked like a playground brawl.


 
But that is what fighting looks like when there aren't any rules!! 
UFC only looks that way because they are coming out from oposite sides of the cage, know what each other does and trains in, and following set rules
In a street fight, anything can happen. If you took two UFC fighters and got them into a nightclub brawl, it would look a mess. Doesn't mean that they aren't technically good fighters. Its just that there are no rules to make it look 'tidy'. I think that is what shocked Cheung. Because he expected it to be like traditional rooftop matches etc.


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