# groundwork with guns



## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

I have my big test next week (krav black belt) It was originally in July  but was postponed.  Anyway,  the head instructor who is coming up from Florida just added a bit of material.   Handgun defense from guard, mount. I suspect there will be a request to display long gun from guard, mount as well.  I'm getting it down decent enough but was looking for some good (or bad ) video links.  I also suspect a request to show firearm use from guard, mount.  Thanks.


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## Tez3 (Oct 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I also suspect a request to show firearm use from guard, mount.



That should be interesting!


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> That should be interesting!


Yes, it should.  Firearm use is not in the curriculum until black belt, so it's just what we have done on our own.  It would be a good crash introduction. our training pistols are rubber with the trigger guard removed.  Long guns are 2x4 cutouts of whatever was laying around at the time.


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2017)

Are you asking about you being in guard & mount defending vs a person with a firearm OR you defending with a firearm?


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

Mainly, holding opponent in guard- defend against drawn handgun.
  Being held in guard- defend against drawn handgun.  
Holding in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.
Being held in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2017)

Is it a semi auto or a revolver?
Will be different as to specific tactics and when the firearm is dangerous and in what manner it is dangerous.
First control the barrel assuring the muzzle never is pointed toward any part of your body.
If a semi auto and controlling the barrel and slide the firearm can discharge once and then the firearm becomes a blunt object due to having a failure to feed. There will have to be a cycling of the slide and even a removal of the magazine, cycling of the slide, reinstalling the magazine, and then a cycling of the slide once again to make the firearm dischargeable. If a revolver with a external hammer in-order for the weapon to fire besides having a loaded cylinder bore, a couple of things have to happen. One the hammer must be retracted and the cylinder must turn. This happens as the trigger is pulled. So besides keeping the muzzle pointed away from your body parts holding the barrel in a manner that prevents the cylinder from turning the weapon will not fire. However, if there is a live cartridge in the aligned cylinder and barrel And the hammer is cocked the weapon will fire once and then the above becomes true again with the cylinder having to turn. To prevent the discharge of a revolver with a cocked hammer something like a finger, when grasping the revolver must be between the hammer and the firing pin. Will pinch and can be painful but will prevent the discharge as long as it prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin. If a revolver with an internal hammer preventing the cylinder from turning will prevent a discharge.
Either way you are in a very bad situation grappling vs a person with a firearm.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

Danny T said:


> There will have to be a cycling of the slide and even a removal of the magazine, cycling of the slide, reinstalling the magazine, and then a cycling of the slide once again to make the firearm dischargeable


 Why? I always thought a tap and rack once should do it.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

Or just a rack.


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## wab25 (Oct 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Yes, it should.  Firearm use is not in the curriculum until black belt, so it's just what we have done on our own.  It would be a good crash introduction. our training pistols are rubber with the trigger guard removed.  Long guns are 2x4 cutouts of whatever was laying around at the time.


Why remove the trigger guard? If you develop a little control, there are some fun things you can do with it. That bit of control gives you a few more options in some cases. ( I can take his finger off while he is standing there, or I can put him on the ground first and then collect the finger... It's so much more fun to give someone the finger, when it's their finger  )

If you ever want to try your stuff against simunitions, those guns have trigger guards... you will want the other guy to have some control, as the possibility of getting shot by simunition rounds, ups the speed and power. This is where you really need that feel and control to prevent injury.


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## drop bear (Oct 11, 2017)

wab25 said:


> Why remove the trigger guard? If you develop a little control, there are some fun things you can do with it. That bit of control gives you a few more options in some cases. ( I can take his finger off while he is standing there, or I can put him on the ground first and then collect the finger... It's so much more fun to give someone the finger, when it's their finger  )
> 
> If you ever want to try your stuff against simunitions, those guns have trigger guards... you will want the other guy to have some control, as the possibility of getting shot by simunition rounds, ups the speed and power. This is where you really need that feel and control to prevent injury.



Until you tear someone's finger off fighting for it.


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## drop bear (Oct 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Mainly, holding opponent in guard- defend against drawn handgun.
> Being held in guard- defend against drawn handgun.
> Holding in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.
> Being held in full mount- defend against drawn handgun.



If they have you in mount and have a gun you are in a bit of trouble.

I don't think the fundamental escapes really changes.


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## frank raud (Oct 11, 2017)

Some of us have been doing it for a while.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

wab25 said:


> Why remove the trigger guard? If you develop a little control, there are some fun things you can do with it. That bit of control gives you a few more options in some cases. ( I can take his finger off while he is standing there, or I can put him on the ground first and then collect the finger... It's so much more fun to give someone the finger, when it's their finger  )
> 
> If you ever want to try your stuff against simunitions, those guns have trigger guards... you will want the other guy to have some control, as the possibility of getting shot by simunition rounds, ups the speed and power. This is where you really need that feel and control to prevent injury.


When teaching beginners,  no trigger guard or no finger.  When working with higher levels, we like to work on speed.  Which means it's hard to stop as soon as the shooter's index finger strains.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 11, 2017)

drop bear said:


> If they have you in mount and have a gun you are in a bit of trouble.
> 
> I don't think the fundamental escapes really changes.


Big trouble.   Not a whole lot changes, there's just a lot less room for error.  I have limited techniques because at least one hand is controlling the weapon,   and only so many things while being able to control the weapon and not shoot myself while incapacitating my opponent.


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## Danny T (Oct 11, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Why? I always thought a tap and rack once should do it.


Should...usually...but in the heat of battle double feeds happen.


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Should...usually...but in the heat of battle double feeds happen.


In that case, I have a nice little club.


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## Danny T (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> In that case, I have a nice little club.


And I stated; "then the firearm becomes a blunt object."


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## lklawson (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> I have my big test next week (krav black belt) It was originally in July  but was postponed.  Anyway,  the head instructor who is coming up from Florida just added a bit of material.   Handgun defense from guard, mount. I suspect there will be a request to display long gun from guard, mount as well.  I'm getting it down decent enough but was looking for some good (or bad ) video links.  I also suspect a request to show firearm use from guard, mount.  Thanks.


This is becoming more and more a consideration in the general "firearms for self defense" community.  Mike Seeklander is a big advocate and has some free stuff available.  It's mostly based around a BJJ base (he's a big BJJ fan, practices regularly and even has a "private coach").  You can get a free month at his website while he's still offering the deal.  Lots of vids and articles.  Good stuff from what I've heard.  New Home Page | American Warrior Society

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Why? I always thought a tap and rack once should do it.





Runs With Fire said:


> Or just a rack.


That depends on the nature of the malfunction.  A Tap-Rack-Bang will work for a lot of stuff, but I've seen jams that would not fix from a TR.  Further, not all ejection failures can be completely fixed without moving the gun so that gravity can pull the case or cartridge out.  This is a luxury you may not have when rolling.  I'd also like to point out that a TR is generally a two-handed technique.  You may not want to give up use of both of your hands while rolling.  I suppose you could try to rack on the belt, but I'm not overly fond of this technique and I'd particularly frown on it while rolling.  If it jams, just pistol whip him with it.  You can crush skulls and break bones easily enough.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 12, 2017)

We do this in IRT all the time and have been for years.


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## Juany118 (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Or just a rack.



First that is assuming they get full control of the firearm back.  There is an interesting dynamic that occurs that I have noticed in my Kali training with knives and firearm weapon retention as a LEO.  When someone tries to control/take "your" weapon you will instinctively use both hands to maintain it in your control even if you can not clear a malfunction/use it offensively.  Your brain basically says "better to keep a grip on this myself than let 'them' take it and turn it against me." This causes you to use both hands on the weapon for control (gross motor function) rather than try to rack against the opponents dual hand control on the slide/frame (fine motor function).


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Is it a semi auto or a revolver?
> Will be different as to specific tactics and when the firearm is dangerous and in what manner it is dangerous.
> First control the barrel assuring the muzzle never is pointed toward any part of your body.
> If a semi auto and controlling the barrel and slide the firearm can discharge once and then the firearm becomes a blunt object due to having a failure to feed. There will have to be a cycling of the slide and even a removal of the magazine, cycling of the slide, reinstalling the magazine, and then a cycling of the slide once again to make the firearm dischargeable. If a revolver with a external hammer in-order for the weapon to fire besides having a loaded cylinder bore, a couple of things have to happen. One the hammer must be retracted and the cylinder must turn. This happens as the trigger is pulled. So besides keeping the muzzle pointed away from your body parts holding the barrel in a manner that prevents the cylinder from turning the weapon will not fire. However, if there is a live cartridge in the aligned cylinder and barrel And the hammer is cocked the weapon will fire once and then the above becomes true again with the cylinder having to turn. To prevent the discharge of a revolver with a cocked hammer something like a finger, when grasping the revolver must be between the hammer and the firing pin. Will pinch and can be painful but will prevent the discharge as long as it prevents the hammer from striking the firing pin. If a revolver with an internal hammer preventing the cylinder from turning will prevent a discharge.
> Either way you are in a very bad situation grappling vs a person with a firearm.



Nothing wrong with the concepts, but if you are going to grab a hand gun, you need to have been practicing your grip strength, a lot.  Otherwise, your opponent will have an easier time getting it from your grip, or if it discharges, you are more likely to let it go from the surprise and or the burn of powder.


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## Danny T (Oct 12, 2017)

Average person's grip strength will easily prevent a semi auto slide from ejecting a cartridge. Unless several rounds have been fired barrel will not be so hot as to burn you nor will you get much as far power burns. A revolver again the average person can easily prevent the cylinder from turning however if there is a discharge the possibility of burns from hot gas escaping from around the cylinder is greater that I agree. However it can be done with the likes of a 1st degree sunburn when gripping at the hammer and the loading end to middle of the cylinder. In a fight one may not have that luxury. I'd rather have a burned hand than a new navel in my body or worse.
When my boys were young teenagers both had more than enough strength to grab the slides or cylinders and control them on my 45 & 40 cal, my 9s & and my 38. Could I wrench them out of their hands...at that age yes. 

Should one train such...Yes. Should one practice...Yes. 
I have trained such...and I do practice.


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## lklawson (Oct 12, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Average person's grip strength will easily prevent a semi auto slide from ejecting a cartridge. Unless several rounds have been fired barrel will not be so hot as to burn you nor will you get much as far power burns. A revolver again the average person can easily prevent the cylinder from turning however if there is a discharge the possibility of burns from hot gas escaping from around the cylinder is greater that I agree. However it can be done with the likes of a 1st degree sunburn when gripping at the hammer and the loading end to middle of the cylinder. In a fight one may not have that luxury. I'd rather have a burned hand than a new navel in my body or worse.
> When my boys were young teenagers both had more than enough strength to grab the slides or cylinders and control them on my 45 & 40 cal, my 9s & and my 38. Could I wrench them out of their hands...at that age yes.
> 
> Should one train such...Yes. Should one practice...Yes.
> I have trained such...and I do practice.


I agree with most of this.  However, be careful about gasses escaping the cylinder gap.  That can cause injuries worse than a mere burn.  Depending on what it is, it can tear the flesh from the hand.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Runs With Fire (Oct 12, 2017)

Be careful about the dude who's trying to blow your brains out.


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## lklawson (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Be careful about the dude who's trying to blow your brains out.


...water is wet.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## CB Jones (Oct 12, 2017)

Runs With Fire said:


> Be careful about the dude who's trying to blow your brains out.



Pretty sure I'm bulletproof....so no worries.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 13, 2017)

Danny T said:


> Average person's grip strength will easily prevent a semi auto slide from ejecting a cartridge. Unless several rounds have been fired barrel will not be so hot as to burn you nor will you get much as far power burns. A revolver again the average person can easily prevent the cylinder from turning however if there is a discharge the possibility of burns from hot gas escaping from around the cylinder is greater that I agree. However it can be done with the likes of a 1st degree sunburn when gripping at the hammer and the loading end to middle of the cylinder. In a fight one may not have that luxury. I'd rather have a burned hand than a new navel in my body or worse.
> When my boys were young teenagers both had more than enough strength to grab the slides or cylinders and control them on my 45 & 40 cal, my 9s & and my 38. Could I wrench them out of their hands...at that age yes.
> 
> Should one train such...Yes. Should one practice...Yes.
> I have trained such...and I do practice.



I don't know about you, but my first concern would be slapping/moving the barrel to point somewhere besides being aimed at me.  During that process I would hope to grasp the gun, strongly, and not be surprised by gases from the weapon being fired, which is a good possibility if it is a revolver, less so if it is an automatic.  For me, even better if the circumstances allow, would be to grab the assailant's wrist, getting the gun pointing away from me,  and begin manipulating the wrist and arm to remove the gun from his had and hurt him in the process.



> Should one train such...Yes. Should one practice...Yes.
> I have trained such...and I do practice.[/



Excellent!  That is what I was suggesting.  Glad you see the value of that.  Hopefully, seeing you advocate that will inspire others to do the same.


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## Danny T (Oct 13, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know about you, but my first concern would be slapping/moving the barrel to point somewhere besides being aimed at me.


Uhh...Yeah!!
I even stated such in my first statement.


Danny T said:


> Is it a semi auto or a revolver?
> Will be different as to specific tactics and when the firearm is dangerous and in what manner it is dangerous.
> First control the barrel assuring the muzzle never is pointed toward any part of your body.





oftheherd1 said:


> Excellent!  That is what I was suggesting.  Glad you see the value of that.  Hopefully, seeing you advocate that will inspire others to do the same.


Thank you. I see value in continued training and practicing any skill one wants to maintain proficiency in.


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

I saw a video of a guy who teaches grasping the gun hand and stepping in and getting control of the elbow which keeps the assailant from being able to pull away.  And then disarm.

Can't remember the guys name or find the video though.  It looked like a pretty effective technique.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 13, 2017)

frank raud said:


> Some of us have been doing it for a while.



That's one of the videos I was going to post.


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## stonewall1350 (Oct 13, 2017)

Keep the end with the bullet sized hole in it away from you. About all I can think of. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 13, 2017)

Charlemagne said:


> That's one of the videos I was going to post.



I think that is probably the most practical thing I have seen in BJJ.  Thanks.


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## Charlemagne (Oct 13, 2017)

oftheherd1 said:


> I think that is probably the most practical thing I have seen in BJJ.  Thanks.



It's practical in general if you are looking at the traditional versus the sportive aspect of it.  However, it really is just now starting to take off in the form of weapons grappling in that there are now people with legit weapons training AND legit GJJ training who are exploring this stuff in combination.  It's exciting stuff, and I am glad it is happening.


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