# Racism in Martial Arts



## martialartstutor (Oct 23, 2015)

Many people come to us and say "Well, my master came straight from  'insert asian country here' and he is hardcore and legit blah blah blah". We think it is absolutely ridiculous that people can't accept the fact that not all martial arts are asian (there's boxing, sambo, savate ect) and not ALL great martial artists are just asian people. Please also keep in mind that this IS A JOKE, and not intended to offend anyone. But we still see this youtube/forum/blog ect comment literally EVERYWHERE when someone is calling out a particular (asian) martial art on it's effectiveness. We don't care if you trained in the 1970s with a master "Straight from korea" who taught you how to become the next karate kid. What matters is now, not the past. and those schools are very rare.


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## Koshiki (Oct 23, 2015)

Few observations and a question for you...

1. You have six posts on the forums.
2. Four of those threads are threads you started, serving only to link to your own youtube videos...
3. The remaining two posts are comments on your own threads.
4. You have not participated at all in any section of the forums unrelated to your youtube channel.

All of which demands the question:

*Are you just here to advertise your Youtube channel? Because, you know, I believe Martial Talk does offer advertising options...*

Aside from that, if I'm being honest the video seemed neither enlightening nor humorous...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 24, 2015)

I'm totally lost on this one. I guess that's a good thing in this case. I'm going to assume someone "rubbed you the wrong way" which made you want to post something like this.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2015)

Anything that is an epic is inherently racist, because that is what epic means, anyways epic journeys send a very powerful message, and your martial art has more selling power if it can directly tie itself to any given epic. So with the teachings you receive about any given culture, if it is written or told in epic form, there is an assumption that the culture, you are learning about, has a special sumthin sumthin, that the other cultures just don't seem to get. That is the whole point. Does it have a lot to do with who wins the fight in a cage? Nope, nada, and zip; however, you may or may not benefit, in real life, from the cultural tips. It is a new way of thinking, to check out. I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but you are absolutely right.


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## Buka (Oct 24, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Few observations and a question for you...
> 
> 1. You have six posts on the forums.
> 2. Four of those threads are threads you started, serving only to link to your own youtube videos...
> ...



Good call, Zack.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 24, 2015)

martialartstutor said:


> Many people come to us and say "Well, my master came straight from  'insert asian country here' and he is hardcore and legit blah blah blah". We think it is absolutely ridiculous that people can't accept the fact that not all martial arts are asian (there's boxing, sambo, savate ect) and not ALL great martial artists are just asian people. Please also keep in mind that this IS A JOKE, and not intended to offend anyone. But we still see this youtube/forum/blog ect comment literally EVERYWHERE when someone is calling out a particular (asian) martial art on it's effectiveness. We don't care if you trained in the 1970s with a master "Straight from korea" who taught you how to become the next karate kid. What matters is now, not the past. and those schools are very rare.



Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.

I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.

I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of  that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree  to which the art can be understood.


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## Koshiki (Oct 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of  that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree  to which the art can be understood.



Especially when we're talking, as martialartstutor was, about, say, 1970. Nearly half a century ago, would we perhaps expect the best TKD instructors to be largely, though not entirely in Korea?

Would it perhaps, not be unreasonable to think that perhaps a higher percentage of highly knowledgeable Karate practitioners to be in Okinawa, rather than in the US, where many instructors were ex-military with a year or two of off and on training with a language barrier?

45 years ago, if a guy from California and a guy from Fujian came up to me and both offered to teach me Bagua Zhang, do you think it might not be _slightly _more likely that the Chinese guy might have been practicing from a young age, with qualified instruction, or do you think that the 1970's quality of Bagua was identical in San Diego, when compared to all of China?

Now, if a Japanese guy and a Filipino guy both claimed to have ancestry steeped in Kali, and opened schools next door to each other, I might trust the quality of the guy from the Philippines slightly more. Why? I think you know, and I think you'd make the same decision. Fun fact: I know three Filipino knife-art instructors. Two are from the US, one is FIlipino. One of the guys fromt he US is pretty good, as far as I can tell, one is very impressive, and can dice me with a training knife about thirty times before I notice. The Filipino guy is kind of terrifying, and both other instructors know this and hold him in the highest esteem.

If a guy who grew up in Bankok in the 70's opened a Boxing next door to a guy from London or New York, do you think it would be unreasonable to guess that the Londoner or New Yorker might have had a chance to have access to better training, to have been around more world class boxers, to have been more part of a community that fostered and had a deep, knowledgable, and skilled lineage of high quality boxing? Now flip that, do you think London or Bankok probably has a more lively Muy Thai scene?

It's not racist, it's acknowledging that culture is not yet fully homogenized across the world, and that when the presence of a martial art is stronger and more deeply rooted in a specific area, people from that area are more likely to have access to better quality training and a wider pool of practitioners from whom to learn and with whom to train. And yes, people from different parts of the world often have different physical features from those from other parts of the world. Again, not racist, just acknowledging peoples' differences in culture and background.

Again, you claim this is a joke, not to be taken seriously. Here's the thing about good humour. It either has to be bizarre and shocking, or have an element of truth that you can poke fun at. Either way, it works best when you start with an actual understanding of the subject matter...

In this case, it might be helpful to understand the difference between the terms "race," "culture," and "nationality of birth."


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.
> 
> I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.
> 
> I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of  that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree  to which the art can be understood.


I'm not sure that being a native of the country where an art was founded gives you an advantage in understanding the training methods, work ethic, or self-defense application of that art. Understanding the cultural values, symbolism, and language, yes. I guess it depends on how important you consider those cultural factors to be in your practice of the art.

On another note, it is true that some arts haven't spread that much beyond their country of origin. For those arts you might expect an experienced teacher to be a native of that country.  Many other arts have been spread worldwide for long enough that you can easily find practitioners and teachers from other countries who are as good as any you would find in the country of origin.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 24, 2015)

Those first three factors are specific to Taekwondo and Korea ie what makes Taekwondo Korean as opposed to it being Koreans doing Karate. How the concepts work together when applying the art is specifically Korean, for example. This may not be the case for other arts, so I will limit my statement to Taekwondo there.

We struggle to understand the meaning of 'Do', and especially what that concept means in the context of self defence. It's clearer for someone me who has grown up with Do as a general life principle in their culture.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 24, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Geographic centricity, maybe, but not racism.
> 
> I think it is totally reasonable to say, for example, that it is much easier for a Korean or someone who grew up in Korea to understand the inherent values, symbolism, training methods, work ethic and self defence application of Taekwondo than it is for you guys. Koreans have grown up in a culture steeped in Shamanism, Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism, are aware of the Samilshingo and how it relates to their daily lives, and are more likely to be aware of the underlying deeper meaning of what they are practicing. They are also more likely to have paired arts like Taekwondo and Hapkido with tactical training for security services, bodyguarding, door work or military training, for example, therefore are more likely to have experience of training and using their combatives and skill in reality.
> 
> I think it is totally reasonable to say that the best training in a particular martial art is likely to be in the country of its origin or with a native of  that country. That has nothing to do with racism. It's not impossible for someone outside of that country to understand and teach a martial art, of course, but the preconceptions of culture will limit the degree  to which the art can be understood.


OK then, it is blatant, in your face, tribalism, and not racism. My bad. Ha Ha


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2015)

I must adfmit i like the cook to be the nationally of the food I am eating.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

On second thought it is racism, because, epic form also requires you recognize the authorities, on what ever you are talking about, as ordained by God. This has a name, and that is cultural naturalism. We pretty much all suffer from it; so, I am not against exploring other naturalisms.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> On second thought it is racism, because, epic form also requires you recognize the authorities, on what ever you are talking about, as ordained by God. This has a name, and that is cultural naturalism. We pretty much all suffer from it; so, I am not against exploring other naturalisms.



Please share what you consider to be the definition of the word epic, and the definition of the word racism.  I do not understand your posts relating to this, I think because your understanding of those words is different to mine.

How is it racism?

Epic:
relating to poems or legends of a particular culture or nation. That may or may not have anything to do with religion.

Racism:
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races. Prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

I don't see how stating that an instructor from a particular geographic location is more likely to have access to specific cultural context, skills, and knowledge constitutes racism. The race is incidental, it is the geographic location and national climate that is important here.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.

Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.
> 
> Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?


No, but the kit and kaboodle is about Korea and its culture, like it is something special. There nothing wrong with that, but let us get real here.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

All epics need have a certain criteria, and just for the record, even the concept of time is religious; so, you will never convince me this or that thing is not religious, and epics, happen to be religious.


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2015)

epic
[ˈɛpɪk]
*NOUN*

a long poem, typically one derived from ancient oral tradition, narrating the deeds and adventures of heroic or legendary figures or the past history of a nation.
*synonyms:* heroic poem · long poem · long story · saga · legend ·
romance · lay · history · chronicle · myth · fable · folk tale · folk story
the genre of epics:
"the romances display gentler emotions not found in Greek epic"
a long film, book, or other work portraying heroic deeds and adventures or covering an extended period of time:
"a Hollywood biblical epic"
*synonyms:* epic film · long film · blockbuster

informal
an exceptionally long and arduous task or activity:
"the business of getting hospital treatment soon became an epic"
*ADJECTIVE*

relating to or characteristic of an epic or epics:
"our national epic poem Beowulf"
*synonyms:* heroic · long · grand · monumental · vast · Homeric ·
lofty · grandiloquent · high-flown · high-sounding · extravagant · bombastic
*antonyms:* understated
heroic or grand in scale or character:
"his epic journey around the world"
*synonyms:* ambitious · heroic · grand · arduous · extraordinary ·
Herculean · very long · very great · very large · huge · monumental
informal
particularly impressive or remarkable:
"the gig last night was epic"


*ORIGIN*
late 16th cent. (as an adjective): via Latin from Greek epikos, from epos ‘word, song’, related to eipein ‘say’.

*RELATED FORMS*
epic (noun)
epic*s* (plural noun)
epic (adjective)



Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.
> 
> Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?


I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.

Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.
> 
> Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.


I should add that the Korean advantage may be decreasing with time as well. In the latest (2012) Olumpics, the Koreans won just 2 out of 32 medals(6%), performing no better than several other countries such as Turkey and China.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.
> 
> Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.


So far as sport TKD goes, yeah. But there is more than sport... 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't have a dog in the fight when it comes to TKD, but I thought I'd look up some statistics.
> 
> Out of 112 Olympic medals that have been awarded in TKD, Koreans have won 14. That's pretty good - it puts them in first place. The next closest countries are the US and Taiwan with 8 medals each. Still, the fact that 87.5% of the medals have been won by representatives from other countries would seem to indicate that top-level talent is pretty widespread and not limited to Korea.


I think his point is that some little old Korean lady will understand TKD, more than those foreign champions ever will, and, to that sentiment, I think he is right; however, they got that fighting part down.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Here's an example. In Korea, there are Universities with dedicated Taekwondo faculties, where research and training is partially government funded. Within those same universities, there are specialist faculties for security services training. People come out of those faculties with cutting edge knowledge and skill about Taekwondo which just does not exist anywhere in the world, in that those research facilities along with a few others form part of of the crucible where modern applied Taekwondo is developing.
> 
> Only people who attend those universities and centres, or people who train with them, have access to that information and skill. Is it racism to want to train with them?





Gnarlie said:


> So far as sport TKD goes, yeah. But there is more than sport...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk



My theory was that most of the government funded research and training and cutting edge knowledge you mentioned was probably sport-oriented. I don't see how any of that would apply to the cultural values and symbolism you referenced earlier. I suppose there _could_ be special government-funded research into improving the street-oriented combative application of the art. If so, I'd love to see what they're coming up with. Most of the evolution of the art over recent decades doesn't seem to be in that direction.


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## Danny T (Oct 25, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> epic
> [ˈɛpɪk]
> *NOUN*
> 
> ...


And obviously therefore completely religious!   LOL!


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## Tez3 (Oct 25, 2015)

Beowulf (modern English translation) by    Anonymous  : The Poetry Foundation

THE epic poem, in English not Anglo-Saxon. Nice lot of fighting in it so fairly martial arts related lol.


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## tshadowchaser (Oct 25, 2015)

I must have missed something is this thread about racism or about Korean instruction?
Racism used to be seen in many tournaments in the USA. Actual race battles would break out between people of different color . Sides in these battles would not be because of what school or system you belong to but what color you where.  Many instructor would not teach anyone if you where not the same colored skin.  That is racism.
Cultural prejudice used to happen when someone from another country came to your school and they learned next to nothing but where used as a punching and kicking dummies  until they "proved they belonged"


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> My theory was that most of the government funded research and training and cutting edge knowledge you mentioned was probably sport-oriented. I don't see how any of that would apply to the cultural values and symbolism you referenced earlier. I suppose there _could_ be special government-funded research into improving the street-oriented combative application of the art. If so, I'd love to see what they're coming up with. Most of the evolution of the art over recent decades doesn't seem to be in that direction.



All of those things and more. There's research covering pretty much every aspect of the art and the culture surrounding it. About how to communicate those things and share them with a world that does not have a common cultural base and context from which to understand the art. My point is that cutting edge stuff is not and can not be happening anywhere else in the world, so if you want to get that deeper understanding of the art, there are only a couple of ways to go...I would suggest that similar situations exist with other arts too.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> I must have missed something is this thread about racism or about Korean instruction?



I brought it in as an example because the OP mentioned Korea, and because Taekwondo in particular is often described as 'ethnocentric'.



tshadowchaser said:


> Racism used to be seen in many tournaments in the USA. Actual race battles would break out between people of different color . Sides in these battles would not be because of what school or system you belong to but what color you where.  Many instructor would not teach anyone if you where not the same colored skin.  That is racism.
> Cultural prejudice used to happen when someone from another country came to your school and they learned next to nothing but where used as a punching and kicking dummies  until they "proved they belonged"



Now that IS racism. Not something I have experienced, thankfully.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> My point is that cutting edge stuff is not and can not be happening anywhere else in the world,


Why not?


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Why not?



Because TKD is Korean. It does not make sense for any country other than Korea to be defining what Taekwondo is, and how to understand it, because no other country has the full picture / context.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Because TKD is Korean. It does not make sense for any country other than Korea to be defining what Taekwondo is, and how to understand it, because no other country has the full picture / context.



Strange. The Dutch redefined muay Thai. And are a powerhouse of the sport.

How does Korea retain its ownership of tkd?


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Strange. The Dutch redefined muay Thai. And are a powerhouse of the sport.
> 
> How does Korea retain its ownership of tkd?



MT is a different animal, can't really speak to that.

Iran and a couple of other countries have done a fairly good job of redefining sport taekwondo too, but that is just a part of the art. The core of the art remains with the Koreans, basically because up to now the rest of the world has not been a position to fully appreciate it because the context was missing.


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## drop bear (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> MT is a different animal, can't really speak to that.
> 
> Iran and a couple of other countries have done a fairly good job of redefining sport taekwondo too, but that is just a part of the art. The core of the art remains with the Koreans, basically because up to now the rest of the world has not been a position to fully appreciate it because the context was missing.



What context is missing?


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Because TKD is Korean. It does not make sense for any country other than Korea to be defining what Taekwondo is, and how to understand it, because no other country has the full picture / context.


I don't know ... it sounds a bit circular to me. Koreans are the best at TKD because they are the ones doing research and development on it. Why doesn't the research and development of folks in other countries count? Because they're not Korean!

I suppose it comes down to what you consider to be the essential nature of the art.

If you consider TKD to be primarily a sport, there's no reason why competitors and coaches around the world can't contribute to it equally.

If you consider TKD to be primarily  a combative martial art, there's no reason why practitioners around the world can't contribute to it equally.

If you consider TKD to be primarily a vehicle for personal growth, there's no reason why practitioners around the world can't contribute to it equally.

If you consider TKD to be primarily an expression of Korean cultural identity, then you've defined it such that only those born and raised in the Korean culture can truly develop the art and contribute to it.

I wonder what percentage of TKD practitioners regard it in each of these ways?


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

OK with regard to Tony and DB's last posts...

I agree it is circular. Let me restate that: Taekwondo, both as it was founded in the 50's, and as it exists now, was and is Korean. It is what the Koreans say it is, even if the rest of the world wants it to be something else. Which they frequently seem to want.

It's difficult to understand and apply the essence of the martial art without understanding concepts like Do, Taegeuk, Samjae, Um-Yang, Kang-Yu and Yeokhak, for example. If you didn't grow up with them, in order to understand these concepts even at a rudimentary level, it is necessary to view them in their wider contexts, ie Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism, their relationship with Samilshingo and the Chunbukyeong, and the Han philosophy. All of this is built into the forms and motions of Taekwondo, along with historical symbolism.

Now you can take the combatives out of Taekwondo and go and use and develop them for sport, or to fight, as many countries have done, but the core of the martial art will not come with them. You can practice the forms as empty placeholders too, maybe even gain some insight from repetition, but without the wider context, a lot of the information in there goes right over our heads with a nice wooshing sound. That's less likely to be the case with a Korean native.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> OK with regard to Tony and DB's last posts...
> 
> I agree it is circular. Let me restate that: Taekwondo, both as it was founded in the 50's, and as it exists now, was and is Korean. It is what the Koreans say it is, even if the rest of the world wants it to be something else. Which they frequently seem to want.
> 
> ...



Just to make sure I am correctly understanding your position ...

1) The forms and techniques of TKD are designed to symbolically encode concepts from Korean history, religion, and philosophy (including the specifically Korean takes on religions/philosophies which did not originate in Korea - i.e. Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism).

2) That symbolic encoding (rather than, for example, the combative application) is the true core of TKD. Anyone who doesn't get the encoded references to Korean philosophy, history, and religion is missing the essence of the art.

Is that more or less what you are saying?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 25, 2015)

tshadowchaser said:


> Many instructor would not teach anyone if you where not the same colored skin.  That is racism.


Many Chinese MA instructors don't teach Japanese students even they share the same skin color.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just to make sure I am correctly understanding your position ...
> 
> 1) The forms and techniques of TKD are designed to symbolically encode concepts from Korean history, religion, and philosophy (including the specifically Korean takes on religions/philosophies which did not originate in Korea - i.e. Taoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism).
> 
> ...



Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore. 

For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.

Now we can use our knowledge of western combat or other arts to surmise how the motions in the shell should be applied, but we will arrive a different conclusions to those the underlying Taekwondo philosophy would lead us to when understood in context. We tend to do that without thinking about it, we fill in blanks from our own experience and end up with something that might work, and might even look like Taekwondo and be called Taekwondo, but it won't be Taekwondo, because the fundamentals underlying it will be different. There are also plenty of schools out there doing this, teaching this, and being very successful with it.

If I want to fill in those gaps with the right native Taekwondo information, there really are a limited number of places to get it. I believe in going to the source, the specialist, the expert, regardless of who or where that might be. I don't perceive that to be racism, but perhaps I am wrong. These are just my opinions, after all.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> And obviously therefore completely religious!   LOL!


Study the term harder.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

drop bear said:


> Strange. The Dutch redefined muay Thai. And are a powerhouse of the sport.
> 
> How does Korea retain its ownership of tkd?


They just do, and you will never understand. Ha ha


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I don't know ... it sounds a bit circular to me. Koreans are the best at TKD because they are the ones doing research and development on it. Why doesn't the research and development of folks in other countries count? Because they're not Korean!
> 
> I suppose it comes down to what you consider to be the essential nature of the art.
> 
> ...


Most, if not, secretly, all.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Many Chinese MA instructors don't teach Japanese students even they share the same skin color.


It ain't about what shade you are.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore.
> 
> For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.
> 
> ...


You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 25, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Not quite. The Korean takes on those themes determine the strategy, and beneath it tactics and techniques, therefore they determine the combative application. The philosophical and combative aspects are mutually dependent and together form the core. Splitting them leaves you with something that just isn't really Taekwondo anymore.
> 
> For example if you just take the combatives and try to apply them, you have no underlying principles as to how that should work. This is the situation some schools are currently in - they learn technique after technique but there is no glue holding the thing together into a coherent set of tactics and strategy. They have essentially inherited the 'movement shell' of TKD, the forms and some combatives, and a sport.
> 
> ...


Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...

The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.

Is that closer to your viewpoint?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...
> 
> The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.
> 
> Is that closer to your viewpoint?


I assure you it will be easy to dismantle his argument, but you won't touch his Korean Flava.


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## Danny T (Oct 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Study the term harder.



Epic is from French ‘epique which comes from Latin epicus or from Greek epikos.
All pertaining to or constituting a long poem, tale, story, prophecy, proverb in a heroic sense. It refers to a long narrative told on a grand scale of time and/or place.

An Epic may have been religious in nature or even racist as well however, Epic it self is not.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Danny T said:


> Epic is from French ‘epique which comes from Latin epicus or from Greek epikos.
> All pertaining to or constituting a long poem, tale, story, prophecy, proverb in a heroic sense. It refers to a long narrative told on a grand scale of time and/or place.
> 
> An Epic may have been religious in nature or even racist as well however, Epic it self is not.


Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a journey that concludes with a spiritual transformation. If that ain't religious, nothing is.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

By the way, martial arts training, even in neighboring countries to Korea, are all journeys that are supposed to conclude in spiritual transformation. The epic of it all is why you train. You want the stuff.


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Study the term harder.



Darn. I wasn't so clear on "epic" but I really thought I knew what_ harder _meant. 

Anyway, to get back to the OP, the cultural bias (_racist_ is such a loaded word) in favor of seeking teachers whose nationality or ethnicity matches that of their art is a legitimate topic for debate. As Tony and others have pointed out, this bias more apparent in TMA, especially the less common TMA, than it is in competitive martial arts. In sport and competition where, above all, winning matters ...well winning matters above all! People pick their coaches largely  on the basis of results ...along with all the other normal factors like location and convenience, pricing, personality, and so on.

With the more exotic TMA, the cultural identity of the instructor naturally plays into marketing. Just as students of a foreign language seek out a native speaker to learn from, martial artists often seek out a native practioner of whatever art they are interested, whether it be Japanese, Chinese Korean Thai, Filipino, Indonesian, Brasilian, Nepalese, Tibetan, Native American, Hawaiian, ...or _Klingon._   Good luck finding the last one.  Hehehe

I don't know if I'd call it racism, cultural romanticism or what. It is definitely a form of bias. I mean, one of my escrima instructors is Mexican-American, and he never earned a black belt in any martial art that I know of. Yet for realistic self-defense and fighting, IMO his stuff is better than most of the well known Filipino instructors I've seen. Interestingly, his top_ assistant_ is Filipino, grew up in the FMA, served in the US Marines and is tough as nails. A pretty good endorsement. But there is always the cultural bias. These days probably the _worse_ thing you can be is _white_. ...er ...that would be me. Lends a whole new twist to the phrase "white man's burden". 


One easy way out is to suddenly find out that you have some ancestry in the appropriate ethnic group and then play it up big time. Like this picture of Darth Vader after he found out that he was 1/16 Cherokee:
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/be/67/a1/be67a19210ead420fe473998cc6e98ce.jpg


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## Danny T (Oct 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Well, I guess it depends on your definition of a journey that concludes with a spiritual transformation. If that ain't religious, nothing is.


Not really. 
The journey isn't the epic. 
The story telling about the journey is the epic.The journey is simply the journey. 
Spiritual isn't just being religious. Religious is believing in a god or a group of gods and following the rules of a religion. One can be spiritual and not be religious. One can have a spiritual experience or transformation not having anything to do with religion.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

Now, you are just splitting hairs.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 25, 2015)

geezer said:


> Darn. I wasn't so clear on "epic" but I really thought I knew what_ harder _meant.
> 
> Anyway, to get back to the OP, the cultural bias (_racist_ is such a loaded word) in favor of seeking teachers whose nationality or ethnicity matches that of their art is a legitimate topic for debate. As Tony and others have pointed out, this bias more apparent in TMA, especially the less common TMA, than it is in competitive martial arts. In sport and competition where, above all, winning matters ...well winning matters above all! People pick their coaches largely  on the basis of results ...along with all the other normal factors like location and convenience, pricing, personality, and so on.
> 
> ...


I think that is why you will never be Korean. To you it is romanticism, but to them it is THE WAY. Racism is not a good label for it, but if it talks like a duck...


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## geezer (Oct 25, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I think that is why you will never be Korean. To you it is romanticism, but to them it is THE WAY. Racism is not a good label for it, but if it talks like a duck...



Er ...no, I think I will never be Korean ...BECAUSE I'M NOT KOREAN!!!!   

As far as the "romanticism" reference I made, I was talking about_ Westerners _who  naively romanticize Asian cultures that they do not understand well. Sort of like the guy who came into my class and said that he wanted to study kung fu so he could live his life "like Quai Chang Caine". Sheesh!  Fortunately he wandered off, presumably  on his own personal journey of transformation. Epic no doubt.

Anyway the point is I think we actually kinda agree ...Que no?


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Okay, let me try again to see if I'm reading you correctly ...
> 
> The underlying combative concepts of TKD (body dynamics, tactical doctrine, mindset, physical principles, etc) are derived from concepts uniquely found in Korean philosophy, religion, and history. By "uniquely", I mean they aren't commonly found in other combative systems or even in martial arts from other countries that have a strong Buddhist or Taoist influence. These concepts are symbolically encoded in the forms and techniques of TKD such that they are recognizable to someone sufficiently familiar with traditional Korean philosophy, religion, and history, but not to those who aren't.
> 
> Is that closer to your viewpoint?


Yes, it is. There is some overlap with other asian martial arts, for example the Taegeuk concept, which also can be expressed as as Tai Chi.

But there are certainly uniquely Korean aspects. 

I would also expect there to be uniquely native aspects to other arts in their originating countries/locations.

Would I learn better Krav in Israel? 
Better Catch Wrestling in Lancashire?
Possibly. 

But I think the further removed the originating culture is from our own, the more important it is to understand that context in order to appreciate the art fully. 

I'd be looking for the expert regardless of the art and where it originated.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.


Nope, you can keep your label, thanks. I do what I need to do to understand what I study. That applies to everything, not just Taekwondo.


Touch Of Death said:


> I assure you it will be easy to dismantle his argument, but you won't touch his Korean Flava.


If you view dismantling to be appropriate, why don't you go ahead and dismantle my argument yourself, instead of making snide sarky comments?


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> You are a Korean Naturalist. And it's OK.




He studies a lot of wildlife? or perhaps this?
Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Using words in the wrong context confusing people and then trying to persuade them you are correct is just pointless.
nat·u·ral·ist
[ˈnaCHərəlist]
biologist ·
botanist · zoologist · ornithologist · entomologist · ecologist
a person who practices naturalism in art or literature.
a person who adopts philosophical naturalism.
*ADJECTIVE*
another term for naturalistic.
*RELATED FORMS*
naturalist (noun)
naturalist*s* (plural noun)
naturalist (adjective)

Powered by Oxford Dictionaries · © Oxford University Press

Several of us have pointed out what 'epic' means, and it's not what you think it does.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> He studies a lot of wildlife? or perhaps this?
> Naturalism (philosophy) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> ...


I meant the art is part of the epic. Sorry you were ruffled.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Nope, you can keep your label, thanks. I do what I need to do to understand what I study. That applies to everything, not just Taekwondo.
> 
> If you view dismantling to be appropriate, why don't you go ahead and dismantle my argument yourself, instead of making snide sarky comments?


OK your argument is complete bull, People are people, and there is nothing Koreans do or know that the rest of us can't do and know.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I meant the art is part of the epic. Sorry you were ruffled.


Both your use of 'epic' and your use of 'naturalist' are pretty much meaningless in this context, as people have pointed out. 

Those words do not mean what you think they mean. 

Further use of those terms without further explanation from you on how you feel they apply is pointless. If you explain what you mean instead of trying to justify your use of those terms, maybe we can understand each other.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Both your use of 'epic' and your use of 'naturalist' are pretty much meaningless in this context, as people have pointed out.
> 
> Those words do not mean what you think they mean.
> 
> Further use of those terms without further explanation from you on how you feel they apply is pointless. If you explain what you mean instead of trying to justify your use of those terms, maybe we can understand each other.


Like I said, it is bull crap to believe yourself or your people to be superior, and the only ones that can possibly get it. There you go. Plain and simple.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> OK your argument is complete bull, People are people, and there is nothing Koreans do or know that the rest of us can't do and know.


Correct. There is nothing that we CAN'T potentially do or know. But that is not my point.

There are things that we DON'T know and CAN'T understand without the help of natives to the culture where the art was born.

Keep trying. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> Like I said, it is bull crap to believe yourself or your people to be superior, and the only ones that can possibly get it. There you go. Plain and simple.



Not my argument, try again.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

If you deny that you are fulfilling some epic idea, well, then there is just no excuse. huh?


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you deny that you are fulfilling some epic idea, well, then there is just no excuse. huh?



This doesn't even make sense. As I said, further use of those terms without further explanation from you is meaningless.


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## Tez3 (Oct 26, 2015)

Touch Of Death said:


> I meant the art is part of the epic. Sorry you were ruffled.




Not 'ruffled' at all, it's just that when you use the wrong words, ones that have accepted meanings, it makes it hard to understand what you are talking about. 'The' epic doesn't make sense unless it is that poem or saga.
What 'epic', is there a long saga/poem about TKD we can read either in Korean or English, if not there is no 'epic'.

It's not racism to say that there's only some things a 'native' of a country can understand, things like gun control in America and the arguments for and against make sense to Americans but not so much for the rest of the world because we don't live in the US, don't understand the passion for and against guns etc. We understand the argument but not the American nuances in it. There's many, many other examples of cultural differences that come up in different countries even a simple thing as sticking a thumb up or showing the soles of your feet which mean nothing to us but a lot to the people in certain countries so to say TKD has nuances for Koreans that it doesn't for the rest of us is correct, doesn't mean anyone is superior or inferior and it's not a race thing either.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Not 'ruffled' at all, it's just that when you use the wrong words, ones that have accepted meanings, it makes it hard to understand what you are talking about. 'The' epic doesn't make sense unless it is that poem or saga.
> What 'epic', is there a long saga/poem about TKD we can read either in Korean or English, if not there is no 'epic'.
> 
> It's not racism to say that there's only some things a 'native' of a country can understand, things like gun control in America and the arguments for and against make sense to Americans but not so much for the rest of the world because we don't live in the US, don't understand the passion for and against guns etc. We understand the argument but not the American nuances in it. There's many, many other examples of cultural differences that come up in different countries even a simple thing as sticking a thumb up or showing the soles of your feet which mean nothing to us but a lot to the people in certain countries so to say TKD has nuances for Koreans that it doesn't for the rest of us is correct, doesn't mean anyone is superior or inferior and it's not a race thing either.


Bingo, glad somebody sees what I mean. 

Two further and more general examples of this would be:

Firstly, asian culture is often highly non-literal and indirect. Examples are often given by analogy or through demonstration of a principle. 

Western culture is typically more direct and literal. The indirectness and non-literalism of eastern culture creates an obstacle that is difficult for westerners to perceive, let alone surmount.

Secondly, the idea of monism pervades eastern martial arts. Philosophies tend to address a whole picture rather than breaking it down. 

Western philosophy is based on breaking down ideas into components. This makes it difficult for a westerner to understand and appreciate the monistic approach without the help of a native. We might think we understand, but our tendency to break things down will lead us down all kinds of dark alleys. 



Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## WaterGal (Oct 26, 2015)

You know, as someone that lives and co-owns a school in a region where a lot of schools are owned by teachers "straight from Korea".... this whole argument/video is based on a false premise, because people _don't_ automatically pick the school owned by the Asian guy.

They usually pick either the school that's most convenient to them, or the school that's local and seems to provide good training/instruction.  Plus some consideration for price, friendliness, and the amount of advertising the school does.  Plenty of Korean teachers/school owners are amazingly skilled at the martial art they do, but aren't very good at teaching or don't demand a high standard from their students.  Whether or not a non-Korean martial artist can really understand the concepts of taegeuk, etc, the way a Korean martial artist could - if the non-Korean teacher gets better results, the students will go there.

Also..... the reason Korean and Chinese martial arts teachers are often so talented at such a young age?  It's not "because Asian people are better at martial arts", it's because they've trained for hours every day since they were like 5 years old. My old Korean teacher said he went to a martial arts vocational high school where they spent half the school day doing TKD.  From what I've heard, serious kung fu practitioners in China and Taiwan do the same thing.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> You know, as someone that lives and co-owns a school in a region where a lot of schools are owned by teachers "straight from Korea".... this whole argument/video is based on a false premise, because people _don't_ automatically pick the school owned by the Asian guy.
> 
> They usually pick either the school that's most convenient to them, or the school that's local and seems to provide good training/instruction.  Plus some consideration for price, friendliness, and the amount of advertising the school does.  Plenty of Korean teachers/school owners are amazingly skilled at the martial art they do, but aren't very good at teaching or don't demand a high standard from their students.  Whether or not a non-Korean martial artist can really understand the concepts of taegeuk, etc, the way a Korean martial artist could - if the non-Korean teacher gets better results, the students will go there.
> 
> Also..... the reason Korean and Chinese martial arts teachers are often so talented at such a young age?  It's not "because Asian people are better at martial arts", it's because they've trained for hours every day since they were like 5 years old. My old Korean teacher said he went to a martial arts vocational high school where they spent half the school day doing TKD.  From what I've heard, serious kung fu practitioners in China and Taiwan do the same thing.


That reminds me of the story about a black belt from Korea. As he boards the plane to America, he is but a black belt, as the plane begins to take off he becomes second degree; as, the plain reaches altitudes he becomes third degree; as the plane gets closer and closer to America the rank ascends, until, finally, as the plane lands and the passengers un-board, he walks on to American soil, as a tenth degree. ,


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## Koshiki (Oct 26, 2015)

What do we do when Americans, of mixed Scotch-Dutch-English-German-Iroquois-Spanish descent are teaching TKD, but the forms they are using are Korean versions of Japanese versions of Okinawan forms, several of which originated in China?


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> What do we do when Americans, of mixed Scotch-Dutch-English-German-Iroquois-Spanish descent are teaching TKD, but the forms they are using are Korean versions of Japanese versions of Okinawan forms, several of which originated in China?


It is just motion and application. Relax, and let the Koreans worry about being better Koreans, but check it out. it could help you.


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## geezer (Oct 26, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> What do we do when Americans, of mixed Scotch-Dutch-English-German-Iroquois-Spanish descent are teaching TKD, but the forms they are using are Korean versions of Japanese versions of Okinawan forms, several of which originated in China?



http://i.imgur.com/7j15tXU.jpg


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## Koshiki (Oct 26, 2015)

Woops, we mustn't forget the possibility of the whole "came to China from India" thing...


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## drop bear (Oct 26, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> You know, as someone that lives and co-owns a school in a region where a lot of schools are owned by teachers "straight from Korea".... this whole argument/video is based on a false premise, because people _don't_ automatically pick the school owned by the Asian guy.
> 
> They usually pick either the school that's most convenient to them, or the school that's local and seems to provide good training/instruction.  Plus some consideration for price, friendliness, and the amount of advertising the school does.  Plenty of Korean teachers/school owners are amazingly skilled at the martial art they do, but aren't very good at teaching or don't demand a high standard from their students.  Whether or not a non-Korean martial artist can really understand the concepts of taegeuk, etc, the way a Korean martial artist could - if the non-Korean teacher gets better results, the students will go there.
> 
> Also..... the reason Korean and Chinese martial arts teachers are often so talented at such a young age?  It's not "because Asian people are better at martial arts", it's because they've trained for hours every day since they were like 5 years old. My old Korean teacher said he went to a martial arts vocational high school where they spent half the school day doing TKD.  From what I've heard, serious kung fu practitioners in China and Taiwan do the same thing.



Which is also why America is better at wrestling Australia is better at swimming and does not explain England and rugby.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> What do we do when Americans, of mixed Scotch-Dutch-English-German-Iroquois-Spanish descent are teaching TKD, but the forms they are using are Korean versions of Japanese versions of Okinawan forms, several of which originated in China?


First we investigate the aspects if our art that make it uniquely Korean and how it works in the context of the culture it was born in, then we investigate the other cultures and arts that have contributed to our art, and the influences they have had. Is that a problem? 



Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## Gnarlie (Oct 26, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Woops, we mustn't forget the possibility of the whole "came to China from India" thing...


Yep. 

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


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## geezer (Oct 26, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Woops, we mustn't forget the possibility of the whole "came to China from India" thing...


 
Agreed... except it didn't. People everywhere have fought, and have trained their youth in fighting to protect their tribe. So where did it all come from? Wherever _we_ humans came from. Best science to date suggests Africa. Now if anyone ( i.e. anyone of the "White" persuasion) resents some perceived cultural/ethnic bias against their participation in a "foreign" martial art, the rise of HEMA has given an ethnically ...er ..._aligned_ option for light skinned people of European descent. And the armor will help prevent skin cancer too! 

Except that the HEMA groups in my locale are totally ethnically diverse and welcoming to all. In fact, they are almost missionary in their evangelical zeal to get converts! As are pretty much all the martial arts clubs I know of, come to think of it. So what the heck is this thread really about anyway? I mean, has anyone, including the OP, actually found ethnic bias in the martial arts to be a problem? An occasional minor annoyance maybe... but _a problem?  _


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## Buka (Oct 26, 2015)

Boy, am I confused.


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## GGjciods (Oct 26, 2015)

Yeah, the whole point is that the other cultures just don't seem to get.


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## geezer (Oct 26, 2015)

Buka said:


> Boy, am I confused.



Yeah... So am I. Just in general. Nothing to do with this thread.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 26, 2015)

Buka said:


> Boy, am I confused.


I thought you knew that story was craptastic.


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## EddieCyrax (Oct 27, 2015)

"You dont have to be lonely at Farmer Only dot Com!!!  City Folk just dont git it!!!"


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## ATACXGYMCAPOEIRA (Nov 2, 2015)

Racism is every bit as rampant in self defense businesses studies and practices as it is everywhere else.


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## donald1 (Nov 2, 2015)

Strange... Personally I never met anyone ever say anything like that. Are there people who think like that?? None that I know of but possible. And in my opinion I wouldn't accusing people just  because there is a few bad apples...


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