# What to do when betrayed



## matt.m (Dec 7, 2008)

Touchy subject so I won't name name's specifically.  However, I have an aquaintance that I thought was a friend, turned out he was more or less using me to "Chase a belt".  He wanted help for a belt test so I spent a lot of time and sweat equity on him so he would be ready.  This past Thursday I was worried he had been in a wreck so I called his cell 2x to make sure he was ok as he was late for Judo class.  When he arrived he told me that he didn't have his cell phone.  However the person he was with grabbed the cell phone from the persons pocket and called home to announce they had made it.

He and I had something in common, we are both military veterans.  He seemed to be genuine, however he is not.

He was my judo student, not any longer......my decision to put it kindly.  He is wanting to cross train in two other arts, which is fine.  I do sword, escrima, bo staff, knife.....extra cirricular stuff.  Extra cirricular is the key term, I may practice at home but it is material we do at the dojang as well.  I am too passionate about instructing Judo and learning Lee H. Park's hapkido too much too bother about other stuff, much less other schools.  

However, I saw this persons true colors when he not only angered me but made the GM of our organization so angry I was suprised he didn't "Get him" so to speak.

He wanted to be my partner in hapkido class and I wouldn't do it.  I wanted to help someone else who genuinely wanted the help.


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## grydth (Dec 7, 2008)

The fact that an individual is a fellow veteran or martial artist sadly is not a guarantee that they will be honorable. This has happened to many of us; there are a lot of "users" out there.

Take solace that your own actions were correct and well intentioned.

Sever completely the relationship with this individual who has so disrupted your group's tranquility.

Put this person out of mind by spending effort on those who deserve it.


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## Drac (Dec 7, 2008)

Sorry to hear that matt...Jeeze, the users are out there, most of the time they can be ignored and put out of mind, but when its someone you considered a friend it really makes you angry...He made GMH angry too?? Not a wise thing to do...


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## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

All anybody can do is pick up the pieces and carry on. I hope in time the wound will heal for you.


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## Drac (Dec 7, 2008)

If I had Father Greeks permission I would post his story of betrayal...Its a goodie but had racial overtones...


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

Maybe I'm missing something - the betrayal was lying about why he didn't take your call? Why did you think he was in a wreck? Just because he was late? 

Did you ask him why? Maybe he was looking for a way to spare your feelings - "I didn't want to take your call" where it may be the truth is a bit harsh maybe he was looking to soften the truth. Maybe he was simply looking for instruction rather than friendship.

I don't mean to discount your feelings but it seems a bit excessive to cut ties over this incident. 

Or is because he wants to cross train?  Saying someone can't cross train at another school is a bit cultish imo. It's not as if he's beholden to a blood oath because he takes MAs at the local strip mall.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> Maybe I'm missing something - the betrayal was lying about why he didn't take your call? Why did you think he was in a wreck? Just because he was late?
> 
> Did you ask him why? Maybe he was looking for a way to spare your feelings - "I didn't want to take your call" where it may be the truth is a bit harsh maybe he was looking to soften the truth. Maybe he was simply looking for instruction rather than friendship.
> 
> ...


 
Might be a good idea to finish reading all posts in a thread before coming to a final conclusion.

Drac has told us just before you posted that there is absolutely more to it than what you name, but the best way to describe it at this time is, "Not Public Business".

If we are to be told, those in position to do so will tell us.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

I took Drac's reference as another story of betrayal. Not the same as the OP. 

If it's "Not Public Business" why post it on a public forum. Still seems odd imo.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I took Drac's reference as another story of betrayal. Not the same as the OP.
> 
> If it's "Not Public Business" why post it on a public forum. Still seems odd imo.


In all honesty, I had the same thoughts.  I am fairly confident that the story Drac alluded to is a different story entirely.  But the detail's in Matt's original post just don't say "betrayal" as given, to me.  Because of that, I just don't have anything to say by way of advice beyond trite "give it time and you'll get over it" or "live and learn" aphorisms.


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## Ninjamom (Dec 7, 2008)

Sounds like Matt is trying to vent in a kind, discreet manner, and not giving us all the details on purpose.  Having read others of his posts, I trust his character and intent enough to think that he isn't just blowing smoke or making up something out of a non-issue.  SOMETHING happened, and it impacted him, his friendship, his school, and his GM.

Realizing that we have very little to go on to be able to comment, Matt, I'd just want to encourage you to remember that your instruction has value and worth, whether the people receiving it realize it or not.  In that respect, what you do, the sweat you give, and the energy you pour into others will *never* go to waste.  I am sorry that you are not seeing the benefit of all that work in this individual's study (and character) at this time, but it will be there, none-the-less.


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## Ceicei (Dec 7, 2008)

Ninjamom,
Very well said and quite wise.
- Ceicei



Ninjamom said:


> Sounds like Matt is trying to vent in a kind, discreet manner, and not giving us all the details on purpose.  Having read others of his posts, I trust his character and intent enough to think that he isn't just blowing smoke or making up something out of a non-issue.  SOMETHING happened, and it impacted him, his friendship, his school, and his GM.
> 
> Realizing that we have very little to go on to be able to comment, Matt, I'd just want to encourage you to remember that your instruction has value and worth, whether the people receiving it realize it or not.  In that respect, what you do, the sweat you give, and the energy you pour into others will *never* go to waste.  I am sorry that you are not seeing the benefit of all that work in this individual's study (and character) at this time, but it will be there, none-the-less.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I took Drac's reference as another story of betrayal. Not the same as the OP.
> 
> *If it's "Not Public Business" why post it on a public forum*. Still seems odd imo.


 

Because he trusts us.
Because sometimes we all need to rant to like minded people and know they understand even when we don't write everything.
Because Ninjamom is right.


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## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Because he trusts us.
> Because sometimes we all need to rant to like minded people and know they understand even when we don't write everything.
> Because Ninjamom is right.


 
Just she and you are right, sometimes people need to bent and we are hear to listen and lend an ear. I know I appreciate it when people listen to some of the stupid rants I have had here on MT.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

terryl965 said:


> Just she and you are right, sometimes people need to bent and we are hear to listen and lend an ear. I know I appreciate it when people listen to some of the stupid rants I have had here on MT.


 

I rant too and while it maybe 'the internet', the thoughts of a lot of people on here mean a lot to me.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

Ninjamom said:


> Sounds like Matt is trying to vent in a kind, discreet manner, and not giving us all the details on purpose.  Having read others of his posts, I trust his character and intent enough to think that he isn't just blowing smoke or making up something out of a non-issue.  SOMETHING happened, and it impacted him, his friendship, his school, and his GM.
> 
> Realizing that we have very little to go on to be able to comment, Matt, I'd just want to encourage you to remember that your instruction has value and worth, whether the people receiving it realize it or not.  In that respect, what you do, the sweat you give, and the energy you pour into others will *never* go to waste.  I am sorry that you are not seeing the benefit of all that work in this individual's study (and character) at this time, but it will be there, none-the-less.



I agree with the second part and Matt should take that to heart. 

But as for the first part, apparently the guy is still at the school so it couldn't have been that big of deal. Again why choose here to vent discretely - not a place to be discrete - it's a _Public Forum._ With the small amount of details provided a fellow school goer could identify the person. Takes Judo and Hapkido and is former military and Matt won't work with him. 

From the details provided it just doesn't seem like betrayal. Maybe some hurt feelings, maybe a misunderstanding of the relationship, seems like something to sleep on rather than making a rash call. FWIW


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I agree with the second part and Matt should take that to heart.
> 
> But as for the first part, apparently the guy is still at the school so it couldn't have been that big of deal. Again why choose here to vent discretely - not a place to be discrete - it's a _Public Forum._ With the small amount of details provided a fellow school goer could identify the person. Takes Judo and Hapkido and is former military and Matt won't work with him.
> 
> From the details provided it just doesn't seem like betrayal. Maybe some hurt feelings, maybe a misunderstanding of the relationship, seems like something to sleep on rather than making a rash call. FWIW


 
Dear me, unconditional sympathy for a mate isn't there is it?
Matt posted up as he's hurt, I don't require him to be a saint to have my goodwill and support. I also don't require him to go into anymore details than he has. I don't criticise him for being hurt, I send him my support and understanding.
There's not a person alive who hasn't stumbled along the way.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

I take a different view - he posted on a public forum looking for advice. I'm not his friend - I'm just a guy that likes Hapkido that also likes to chat about it. With the details provided I don't see betrayal. So rather then indulging immature handling of a socially awkward situation my advice is to reexamine the situation and see if he can gain a deeper understanding. Perhaps there is something else to the story that Matt's behavior contributed to the situation. Maybe he mistook a training situation as friendship and was calling the guy too much and the guy was just dodging him - I don't know - the details are scant.  I don't think he has to be mollycoddled.


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## Ninjamom (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> - I don't know -


Just a personal opinion: I think it would have been better to leave your post at this.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

Again -  it's a public forum. If you ask publicly for advice you may not enjoy all the comments. You may feel it's your place to give internet hugs - I don't. I think you are doing more harm than good.


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## Tez3 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> Again - it's a public forum. If you ask publicly for advice you may not enjoy all the comments. You may feel it's your place to give internet hugs - I don't. I think you are doing more harm than good.


 
Your opinion only. 
Matt is an friend albeit an internet one, I don't chose to criticise him. 
You may chose to criticise him or his posts, I'm sure he'll answer you if he wishes. That's your perogative. Mine is to offer internet hugs. I'm a mother, what can I say?


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## Sukerkin (Dec 7, 2008)

The thread title might suggest a request for advice but the OP text itself was really more a venting to a community of 'friends' about a situation obviously far worse than was explicitly spoken of.  

I don't think that the head of an organisation is going to be particularly upset just because a junior grade student dodged a couple of mobile phone calls from an instructor, do you?

So there's no need to be unpleasant about the affair and it is one of those quite common situations where if your opinion veers to the critical and unpleasant then it's probably best to save your words for another time.


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## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I take a different view - he posted on a public forum looking for advice. I'm not his friend - I'm just a guy that likes Hapkido that also likes to chat about it. With the details provided I don't see betrayal. So rather then indulging immature handling of a socially awkward situation my advice is to reexamine the situation and see if he can gain a deeper understanding. Perhaps there is something else to the story that Matt's behavior contributed to the situation. Maybe he mistook a training situation as friendship and was calling the guy too much and the guy was just dodging him - I don't know - the details are scant. I don't think he has to be mollycoddled.


 
Well then you should really think what this forum is about. We have been like a family here and will continue to be to the people of this forum, sorry you do not understand this.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

I guess I took the title at face value. 

I don't think my advice is unpleasant - examine the situation and see if you were partially to blame. Digest the situation before acting in rash manner. My speculation on the situation was simply an example of a possible "other side" of the story. From the information provided his reaction seemed excessive - imo. If he wants to clarify - I'll listen. 

If the head of the org is upset about cross training - I think the head is wrong. The student doesn't sign up to be owned, he signs up to train. It is an unhealthy  relationship to see it as an exclusive relationship. It's not a Koryu we're  talking about. 

I can appreciate feeling a sense of community but as public forum, the public is involved. There are Private messages and email if one doesn't want the public's input.


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## Carol (Dec 7, 2008)

After reading Matt's entire post, I totally understand how he feels betrayed.

Matt.m has repsponsibility to many folks outside his martial arts intrests, includiing his employer, his friends, his wife, and the rest of his family.   Not to mention he's a fellow that has been very bravely battling a number of orthopaedic issues.

What does it mean for someone like Matt to put in a lot of extra effort with a student?  It likely means he has to sacrefice time and energy away from something else...perhaps even something else he'd rather be doing...o help a student out that was chasing a promotion.  It may mean that he's endured some physical pain that he wouldn't have had to endure had he not been on the mat for an extended period of time.

What did he get in return?  A person that didn't return his phone calls and then lies to his face about why he didn't call back.  I think everyone's been in a position where they had so much going on that they didn't give proper attention to follow up phone calls or e-mails....but the way to handle such a situation is to admit that one made a mistake....not lying to the person that made the sacrifice.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

I don't know - Matt chose to be an instructor and also chose to spend the extra time. For me the extra time I spend is because I want to be sure they get it - I feel obligated to that end not because I expect a return. I have knowledge that I think is worth sharing - so I share it. Like any other gift once given you don't have any say in what is done with it or it hasn't been truly given, just loaned. 

I think this is a case of mismatched expectations. Sounds as if the offender didn't know the instruction came with strings attached, Matt made the assumption that there was. In a commercial situation most consumers assume that their tuition is compensation for instruction. I don't think the extra time obligates him to field his calls. A "sorry, missed the calls" would have gone a long way. It could have been handled better. I still don't see betrayal. 

Unfortunate situation but not irresolvable. Sounds like a sit down might help massage the relationship back in order.


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## jks9199 (Dec 7, 2008)

I very much respect the time commitment.  In fact, I have a personal policy that if you're more than 15 minutes late, I'm no longer available.   (On my teacher's advice, I developed that policy after someone showed up more than 2 hours late -- and I still made the time to train with them.)  Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis based on contacting me within or before that window closes.

And, if I catch you in a lie, you can be sure I'm not going to trust you without very careful consideration.  And probably an apology.  And a fair bit of time -- plus lots of smaller trusts being maintained.  In other words -- if you show me I can't trust you, you're going to have to work real hard to earn my trust back.

But I'm not exactly sure that this incident, as related, would be a "betrayal" in my personal ledger book.  I don't know...

Not easy.

But I generally handle things like this kind of simply.  I'm not going to let someone else's actions shape my self image or tie me into knots.  I do that enough to myself.  Kind of "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" mindset...


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## Kumbajah (Dec 7, 2008)

I think your rule is a good example of clearly set boundaries and expectations.


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## terryl965 (Dec 7, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> I very much respect the time commitment. In fact, I have a personal policy that if you're more than 15 minutes late, I'm no longer available. (On my teacher's advice, I developed that policy after someone showed up more than 2 hours late -- and I still made the time to train with them.) Exceptions can be made on a case by case basis based on contacting me within or before that window closes.
> 
> And, if I catch you in a lie, you can be sure I'm not going to trust you without very careful consideration. And probably an apology. And a fair bit of time -- plus lots of smaller trusts being maintained. In other words -- if you show me I can't trust you, you're going to have to work real hard to earn my trust back.
> 
> ...


 

I also have that 15 minute rule, great minds think alike.


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## matt.m (Dec 7, 2008)

Thank you everyone to who has shown support.  Look, the ones who have known me on the board or corresponded with me outside this open forum knows that I don't like to rub people through the mud.  However, Kumbajah, sorry if I spelled wrong, if you must know......I am his 3rd instructor and his 3rd school in the same organization.

He began with my father, until he rubbed the entire class the wrong way, he went to another school in the org. that had an aspect shut down.  He has P.T.S.D. and T.B.I. which is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury.  I have both conditions as well so I looked at his situation as "He is just misunderstood".  Even with my father's advice I was still a bit too trusting of this person.

I did everything in the world to try and help him in hapkido and Judo.  Very regrettably I even argued with good friends at a tournament in respect to my former Judo student concerning judging.  It's a good thing for me that my friends understood why I argued with them and no harm was done.  Instructors stick up for their students like Non Commissioned Officers of Marines stick up for their troops.  I know that sounds double edged but if you are an instructor you understand.

So, I was just a bit worried because this guy was and has always been early for class without fail for 6 months.  That is why I called.  You see I ask only one thing of my students if they aren't going to make it to class to call and let me know.  No big deal.  I have a student that is 10 minutes late due to work and travel distance, however that was told to me in the very beginning and they show up almost completely dressed out and make no haste towards "Jumping right in." when they arrive.

I am a combat vet that led troops into battle as a Sgt. of Marines, so I ask you to not say something to the effect of "I give extra time because it is my job as an instructor."  I am retired from work because of my medical responsibilities that I have to maintain just to keep me going.  *Thank you Carol for pointing that out.*  

If you haven't led troops into combat where you were responsible for other's lives then you don't know what "Hard or going the extra mile really is."  Sorry just my opinion.

So after telling me "I didn't answer your call because I just didn't feel like it" and then in a raised tone told the GM of the org. I am only here for hapkido, I don't care about Tae Kwon Do it's bullcrap."  I mean gee GM accepted this guy into the school in St. L out of good faith.  He has always done a lot for everyone in the school for several years.  I have never, ever, ever seen he or my father be so aggravated by a student before, red faced and genuinely angry.  Both have very calm demeanors.

Everyone in the St. L school cross trains in something.  Escrima, bo staff, knife, I am big on sword.  It doesn't matter.....that is not the point.  The point is that this person was a disrespectful liar.  Not only to me but to the head of the org., my father and others.

So, I don't want a student in my Judo class nor a partner in hapkido that doesn't have integrity.  Sorry, I am not a saint in any stretch of the imagination, however I will say things the way I see them no matter if you want to hear them or not.....but I do have integrity.

In the Marines that was the foundation of the establishment (Integrity), sorry I have strong convictions.  How could I with good conscience go into combat with someone I couldn't trust?  Not possible, so to me it is no different as an instructor.  I can't teach or work with someone I can't trust.  This isn't the first time something "Smelly" has arose so to speak this is just the icing on the cake that broke the last straw.

If GM doesn't want him in class, which is not the case then that is his business not mine.  His school, I just instruct a class there.  However, it is at my discretion as a 2nd dan in Judo, 2nd dan in MCMAP, and brown belt in hapkido who I will work with.  Afterall I don't have to partner up with anyone whom I do not choose to.

Like I said earlier, my efforts are spent better on people who genuinely want my help out of sincerity, not just because it benefits them because I am better at something than them.  I told my Judo students a few years back when I began my class.  "Class welcome, 1st of all Judo is hard but fun so falling will be our favorite thing.  Secondly, my belt is black because I have been doing this for longer than you, that is all.  Work hard and you will be a dan one day. Never hesithitate to ask a question."  Geez, last week we had a class based solely on "I see these as your strong points, what do you think your weak points are or what do you want to review."
I had nothing but good hard training and honesty from the students.

Furthermore, it seems to me that the fellow in question is just wanting a black belt in a different style of hapkido just to have one so he can say he is a black belt.  He is going to this other school to work another art, no problem but you know you should be loyal to your organization and the instructors who have attempted to help you.  Gee, in the Marines if someone was even disloyal to their own room mate, squad, or unit.  Well you don't want to know the reprecussions, you wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway.  There is nothing cultish about loyalty and integrity.  If you believe differently then you my friend need to do some real soul searching.  Afterall, martial arts isn't really about techniques.....it is about everything else like honor, integrity, commitment, self respect, you know all those good fuzzy things about being a decent human being are really the root of the M.A.'s.  Same with the Marine Corps, anyone can get in shape and fire a weapon, however without those decent human being qualitites I mentioned then it is worthless.  Sorry, you may not agree and that is ok.  Too each their own.

So again to all of you who have supported me thank you.  It is greatly appreciated, Drac of all people know the situation best outside of the Moo Sul Kwan organization.


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## Carol (Dec 7, 2008)

Matt, we don't train in the same systems, and I don't know much about your organizations.  However, I've shared the mat with folks like the people that you walked away from.   I've seen my instructors give up time and energy trying desperately to reach a student, only to have the student treat the instructor, or the school with disrespect.  

I can understand why some schools keep these kinds of students around.  Often its a business decision.  Each member is another hundred bucks a month, each member makes the school one notch stronger, each member gives the head instructor one notch more organizational clout.

However there are way too many instructors out there that run on the policy that the squeaky wheel gets the grease.  The ones that complain and whine the loudest get the most attention, when more respectful or even just quieter students lose out on attention they need.  It takes a very strong person to be able to step up to a problem student and tell them that they don't have the stuff to continue.  I'm sure your students that respect you greatly appreciate the decision.  Thank you. :asian:


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Matt, I'm not discounting your feelings. I do disagree with you on the role and boundaries of an instructor. I hope you get some closure and you and he both get the help that you need. 

Peace


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2008)

Thank you everyone to who has shown support.  Look, the ones who have known me on the board or corresponded with me outside this open forum knows that I don't like to rub people through the mud.  However, Kumbajah, sorry if I spelled wrong, if you must know......I am his 3rd instructor and his 3rd school in the same organization.

He began with my father, until he rubbed the entire class the wrong way, he went to another school in the org. that had an aspect shut down.  He has P.T.S.D. and T.B.I. which is Post Traumatic Stress Disorder and Traumatic Brain Injury.  I have both conditions as well so I looked at his situation as "He is just misunderstood".  Even with my father's advice I was still a bit too trusting of this person.

I did everything in the world to try and help him in hapkido and Judo.  Very regrettably I even argued with good friends at a tournament in respect to my former Judo student concerning judging.  It's a good thing for me that my friends understood why I argued with them and no harm was done.  Instructors stick up for their students like Non Commissioned Officers of Marines stick up for their troops.  I know that sounds double edged but if you are an instructor you understand.

So, I was just a bit worried because this guy was and has always been early for class without fail for 6 months.  That is why I called.  You see I ask only one thing of my students if they aren't going to make it to class to call and let me know.  No big deal.  I have a student that is 10 minutes late due to work and travel distance, however that was told to me in the very beginning and they show up almost completely dressed out and make no haste towards "Jumping right in." when they arrive.

I am a combat vet that led troops into battle as a Sgt. of Marines, so I ask you to not say something to the effect of "I give extra time because it is my job as an instructor."  I am retired from work because of my medical responsibilities that I have to maintain just to keep me going.  *Thank you Carol for pointing that out.*  

If you haven't led troops into combat where you were responsible for other's lives then you don't know what "Hard or going the extra mile really is."  Sorry just my opinion.

So after telling me "I didn't answer your call because I just didn't feel like it" and then in a raised tone told the GM of the org. I am only here for hapkido, I don't care about Tae Kwon Do it's bullcrap."  I mean gee GM accepted this guy into the school in St. L out of good faith.  He has always done a lot for everyone in the school for several years.  I have never, ever, ever seen he or my father be so aggravated by a student before, red faced and genuinely angry.  Both have very calm demeanors.

Everyone in the St. L school cross trains in something.  Escrima, bo staff, knife, I am big on sword.  It doesn't matter.....that is not the point.  The point is that this person was a disrespectful liar.  Not only to me but to the head of the org., my father and others.

So, I don't want a student in my Judo class nor a partner in hapkido that doesn't have integrity.  Sorry, I am not a saint in any stretch of the imagination, however I will say things the way I see them no matter if you want to hear them or not.....but I do have integrity.

In the Marines that was the foundation of the establishment (Integrity), sorry I have strong convictions.  How could I with good conscience go into combat with someone I couldn't trust?  Not possible, so to me it is no different as an instructor.  I can't teach or work with someone I can't trust.  This isn't the first time something "Smelly" has arose so to speak this is just the icing on the cake that broke the last straw.

If GM doesn't want him in class, which is not the case then that is his business not mine.  His school, I just instruct a class there.  However, it is at my discretion as a 2nd dan in Judo, 2nd dan in MCMAP, and brown belt in hapkido who I will work with.  Afterall I don't have to partner up with anyone whom I do not choose to.
Like I said earlier, my efforts are spent better on people who genuinely want my help out of sincerity, not just because it benefits them because I am better at something than them.  I told my Judo students a few years back when I began my class.  "Class welcome, 1st of all Judo is hard but fun so falling will be our favorite thing.  Secondly, my belt is black because I have been doing this for longer than you, that is all.  Work hard and you will be a dan one day. Never hesithitate to ask a question."  Geez, last week we had a class based solely on "I see these as your strong points, what do you think your weak points are or what do you want to review."
I had nothing but good hard training and honesty from the students.
Furthermore, it seems to me that the fellow in question is just wanting a black belt in a different style of hapkido just to have one so he can say he is a black belt.  He is going to this other school to work another art, no problem but you know you should be loyal to your organization and the instructors who have attempted to help you.  Gee, in the Marines if someone was even disloyal to their own room mate, squad, or unit.  Well you don't want to know the reprecussions, you wouldn't believe me if I told you anyway.  There is nothing cultish about loyalty and integrity.  If you believe differently then you my friend need to do some real soul searching.  Afterall, martial arts isn't really about techniques.....it is about everything else like honor, integrity, commitment, self respect, you know all those good fuzzy things about being a decent human being are really the root of the M.A.'s.  Same with the Marine Corps, anyone can get in shape and fire a weapon, however without those decent human being qualitites I mentioned then it is worthless.  Sorry, you may not agree and that is ok.  Too each their own.
So again to all of you who have supported me thank you.  It is greatly appreciated, Drac of all people know the situation best outside of the Moo Sul Kwan organization.


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> Matt, I'm not discounting your feelings. I do disagree with you on the role and boundaries of an instructor. I hope you get some closure and you and he both get the help that you need.
> 
> Peace


 
Oh, I didn't really need closure......I understood perfectly as the sky is blue.  However, I guess I look at being an instructor no differently than I did my role as a combat leader Sgt. of Marines.  Thank you for the nice sentiment and as noted above it is ok to disagree or not see things the same way.  I wore a uniform and fought and watched people die for the piece of paper that gives Americans that right.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Ok, I misunderstood your need to post then. If there is no problem, there's no need for resolution. I think if you convey to your students that your view is they are under your command it might make things clearer for them and you might avoid similar situations. 

Best of luck,


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2008)

I don't look at it as "They are under my command".  However, if I give you 100 percent I just think it is just common courtesy to do the same in return.  For instance, I know nothing about fixing cars.  A few weeks ago I needed a repair done on my auto.  It was cold as the dickens outside, I have horrible arthritis but stayed with my friend outside while he worked on my auto.  

A few days ago the same guy came by with the intentions of making a shadow box for his brother whom just been discharged from the Marines.  It seems his brother is the proud owner of a Non Commissioned Officers sword and he needed the dimensions.  So, even though I don't own one I got a hold of a friend who does.  The owner of the sword came over without being asked, we got the precise dimensions.  In turn I gave some extra wood I have along with some beveled glass along with some Marine Corps memoribillia and showed him how to put a ribbon rack together for the shadow box.  I did this all just because this guy changed the distrubitor cap on my car for free.  My other friend brought the sword to my home just because of the good ole comradiere that Marines share.

See a resembleance here?  I helped the person doing the repair the best I could while being helpful because he was nice enough to help me.

These are lessons of basic morality.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

He's paying for lessons - no? There is a difference in the relationship. In a commercial school he is paying for a service that you provide. He could stand to learn to be more courteous. He does sound as if he training hard. ( going to two schools and two arts, etc)

Courtesy is needed for all human interactions.  A driving instructor provides more pragmatic skills in the realm of life protection skills and the relationship isn't saddled with command chain trappings. Again just imo. Not everyone brings the same ideas to the relationship as you may and since you are  providing a service to a customer you may want to keep it mind.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah, I assume you are neither an instructor nor run a club or school. The relationship between an instructor and his students in martial arts is not like just providing a service. For the good instructors theres many things involved, compassion, honour and responsibilty. It's more than a transaction for cash, you give students a part albeit maybe a small part of you. To be treated the way Matt has by a student is indeed a betrayal. 

If all you have experienced in martial arts is a customer experience then you have missed one of the most amazing things about martial arts and I'm sorry for it.

Matt, keep your chin up ( as we say in Britland!) keep posting and know we are here for you ! And yes....HUGS!


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

I know that there is a camaraderie that forms around people sharing the same activity. It happens in every shared activity from a book club to martial arts. Any student / teacher relationship there is a transfer of self. If both are sincere it happens with both parties. Compassion is also part of all teaching even if comes in the form of tough love. Again this isn't unique to martial arts. To assume that martial arts are unique in this way is mistaken. Many (most) of us have a coach or teacher that we feel a bond and are indebted to. It doesn't extend to every single one.

To assume that every person signing up for strip mall karate is doing so to become part of a brotherhood is mistaken. Some just look at it as interesting hobby. They aren't looking to pay to have the privilege of being indebted to a group or indulge in the fantasy that they are part of some ancient asian clan. They are paying for martial arts instruction. 

All I'm saying thats Matt's expectations aren't always the expectations of his clients. If Matt feels the need to rap his martial arts in a Corps mentality maybe he should do it in a non-commercial setting. In a commercial setting he needs to be cognizant and respectful of his clients expectations or there will be no clients. 

To deny or ignore the commercial nature of the interaction is delusional -imo. Look at any other commercial interaction that you may have during a day - does the grocery store say you can't go to anther one. Is it disrespectful want to buy one product and not another. I personally won't go and tell my grocer that his tomatoes are BS but I'm not forced to buy them either if all I want is a banana.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> I know that there is a camaraderie that forms around people sharing the same activity. It happens in every shared activity from a book club to martial arts. Any student / teacher relationship there is a transfer of self. If both are sincere it happens with both parties. Compassion is also part of all teaching even if comes in the form of tough love. Again this isn't unique to martial arts. To assume that martial arts are unique in this way is mistaken. Many (most) of us have a coach or teacher that we feel a bond and are indebted to. It doesn't extend to every single one.
> 
> To assume that every person signing up for strip mall karate is doing so to become part of a brotherhood is mistaken. Some just look at it as interesting hobby. They aren't looking to pay to have the privilege of being indebted to a group or indulge in the fantasy that they are part of some ancient asian clan. They are paying for martial arts instruction.
> 
> ...


 
My club isn't a commercial one, we don't do it for the money, we are also a military club thugh civilians are welcome so your analogy doesn't apply to my club I'm afraid. You don't know how Matt's club is run either so your points are really conjecture at this juncture.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Actually the schools website does provide quite a bit of information  I also missed the part where the discussion switched to your club.


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## Kwanjang (Dec 8, 2008)

Sorry to hear bout that Matt. as you know, I know what it feel like to be "betrayed". At first it smacks you around a little. Then you can use it to grow from. User's are everywhere.

Peace out my friend,


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> Actually the schools website does provide quite a bit of information  I also missed the part where the discussion switched to your club.


 
So you weren't lecturing all of us then on how a commerical club should be run?


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

No - just pointing out some of the factors that are involved. I don't think I talked of any business plans. If you don't acknowledge the commercial nature of the relationship you are being delusional - imo. There is a difference.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> No - just pointing out some of the factors that are involved. I don't think I talked of any business plans. If you don't acknowledge the commercial nature of the relationship you are being delusional - imo. There is a difference.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 8, 2008)

This is a bit late but... I've had a similar thing happen to me when a person I thought was a good friend betrayed me and nearly wrecked my caving career in Utah. 
Seems that I took an unauthorized trip into a gated cave (meaning 1 trip per month but I took an extra trip for other people -- who otherwise would've never seen the cave in question)... was nearly caught but thought it was going to be alright. My friend and then caving buddy picked me up one evening for a drive out in to the mountains to mess around and started asking me about what I had done that previous weekend. 
I told him in what I thought was in confidence and we chatted a while about it and other things.
Later it turned out that I was questioned about it by caving officers and I was puzzled as to how they knew... later still while riding around again with this friend he stopped into a store to get something... I searched his (truck) cab for a lighter and found... a micro cassette... red flags went up everywhere and I pocketed the tape without him knowing (ok it was wrong but!!)... later found a micro cassette recorder/player and listened in stunned silence at our conversation the previous weekend. 
Needless to say I was livid but confronted him about it after making a copy on to a full sized cassette... and invited him to listen to the damnedest thing he'll ever hear... Asked him about two minutes later... "why?"  He had no answer. Told him to get out of my house and to never speak to me again. I told him that I could press charges against him and those involved because you CANNOT record someone without their consent (written or otherwise). Also told him that he's lucky that I got _out_ of the drug dealing trade a LONG time ago (before we met) because if I hadn't the method of our parting would be radically different. 
Oh yeah, it hurt because we were close and had lots of adventures and he brought me into his family's life... afterwards it made me not trust anyone for a long time after that, and THAT hurts too. I mean I trusted folks yeah but with a grain of salt. It felt bad to have to do this to other friends when I deep down knew they didn't deserved it. 
I was later venerated from my *ahem* misdeeds (it wasn't necessarily illegal just a breech of protocol) and regained the respect that I had lost. But I had to move on and get on and keep on. This is what you must do as well. Not everyone is going to want to bend you over the fence but at least you're wiser for it now and know how/where/when to be cautious. You'll find out (if not already) who your real friends are. I did and am grateful for it.

We met up again about two years later... we're okay now. Friends again and the incident is forgotten... between us. But I will have to say sadly... he does not have my 100% trust as he did before. But we're okay... time does heal most wounds (if not all). If this guy was a friend then understand that they're hard to come by. If there were good times before then they can be again if you wish. Some folks you GOT to cut off completely... but some folks can be forgiven... if not forgotten. :wink1: 
Good luck to you.


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## jks9199 (Dec 8, 2008)

Matt,
With the additional details, I now understand why you felt betrayed.

At the very least, the behavior and attitude was absolutely disrespectful, and I definitely agree with you on not training with this person, and not teaching them any further.

I'll make one suggestion:  You mention PTSD and TBI.  It's possible that these are causing some of this behavior.  I used to know a guy who was in a motorcycle wreck, and suffered some minor brain damage -- except that it kind of twisted the normal filters in his head, and they didn't quite work right anymore.  Plus side -- you knew exactly what he thought... with minus side being you knew exactly what he thought, because he'd say it.  There could be something like this going on with the disrespectful behavior to your grandmaster.  

Don't let this jerk tie up your energy; he's demonstrated he's not worth the hassle.  If he chooses to eat crow and return down the road, I'd start him back a few steps, and let him earn the right to advance, if I let him back.


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2008)

Hey K,

Look in St. L we charge our students $60 a month to learn Judo, Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do.  We are the furthest thing from commercial.  Ironically, I haven't really understood a word you said about commercialism.  Look, if I want to get my oil changed then I go wherever I want.  Big deal, I pay money they change my oil end of story.

However, I have to agree with Tez, you make no sense.  Plus, that was a bit snide of you to use the phrase "I forgot when we got on the subject of your club".  She was merely using an example.

Plus, if I made the statement of "I don't care if he goes to another school for another art." then I meant it.  However, lying to me as well as causing trouble with my family (Father), and the GM of the Org. who is a good friend then I draw the line.  

I understand there are people who look at strip mall kung fu get your black belt in a year mcdojo's as a hobby.  However, I was not raised this way.

"Do or do not"  period.  Also, I have known my share of hobbiests.  Both on the Marine Judo team and civilian martial arts, they don't last long.  Neither do the hobbiest that joins a gym in Jan. for a New Year's resolution.  You don't see them anymore about March.

So you missed the whole point, I have and do give private lessons in my basement for students that want the extra help for free.  

Really man you should look at the 11 leadership traits, 14 leadership principles, of the U.S. Marine Corps.  Also, take a look at Budo and it's meaning.  If you have no understanding of Budo then IMO you are just a guy that practices technique which makes you a hobbiest not a Martial Artist.  Really, "Knowing yourself and seeking self improvement" is at the top of the list.  Too me a day without Judo is a wasted day.  I mean that figuratively considering I practice hapkido, sword, staff, physical training, mental training, flexibility, read.  Whatever, the point is without improving yourself you are nothing but a hobbiest, and god help you if you have to use hobbiest skills to protect yourself one day.

A wise man once told me "The day you have to defend yourself is going to be the most miserable day of your life....you will be hungry, tired, sick, cold, wet and just want to die and there will be your opponent.  Keep pushin."  That mentality kept me alive in the Marine Corps.  So if I seem a little hard nosed to you then I will not expect you to visit my class anytime soon.  But that is ok.  Remember I wore a uniform to defend that neat little piece of paper in D.C. that says people have rights and can basically do what they want within societies laws and parameters.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Matt this guy seems like a real dillhole and probably should be booted. For whatever reason he hasn't been. I am sorry that you have been traumatized by this episode. He disrespected you and the school but he didn't betray anyone. There's a difference. 

As for a commercial school - The school owner charges to render a service - the profits from those services rendered go in someone's pocket. A Commercial school regardless of the affordability of those services. Just because someone is a hobbyist doesn't mean they aren't serious about their hobby. I know many hobbyist golfers that are obsessive about it. 

I understand Budo and the life commitment it entails but teaching out of commercial school you need to understand business. You are setting yourself to suffer a lot of disappointment if you can't see where the boundaries lie. Not everyone that walks through the door is signing up to walk the path. It's not the Corps. 

Again, sorry you had to suffer through this.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Just because instructors charge doesn't mean it's a commercial school. there's a difference between a school where money is charged to provide a living for the instructors and owner, where making a profit is looked for and the school that charges to cover costs - rent, utilities, insurances etc. I don't know anyone that has so much money they can teach for free in proper premises. I do know many who would teach for free in Dojos/Dojangs etc if they could.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Absolutely correct Tez3. A non-profit can charge money but the surplus money (profit) if there is any, goes back into the organization. A commercial school the surplus money goes to a school owner that can spend for goods and services unrelated to the school ( like his home mortgage, food for his family, car payments, etc ) In a commercial setting you have to be cognizant of your clients expectations and try to meet them it is part of running a successful business. You sell a service that the consumer wants.


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## Tez3 (Dec 8, 2008)

Kumbajah said:


> Absolutely correct Tez3. A non-profit can charge money but the surplus money (profit) if there is any, goes back into the organization. A commercial school the surplus money goes to a school owner that can spend for goods and services unrelated to the school ( like his home mortgage, food for his family, car payments, etc ) In a commercial setting you have to be cognizant of your clients expectations and try to meet them it is part of running a successful business. You sell a service that the consumer wants.


 
Funny, I thought I said that rofl!! 

I can't see Matt's school unless they have a huge amount of students making any profit from charging 30 quid a month and he's already said they aren't commercial.

Matt, I suggest you have a run ashore, a few wets, get minging but don't get yourself a double bagger! Call endex on this guy who's clearly a tubbin numpty!  :uhyeah:


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## KELLYG (Dec 8, 2008)

I am not a martial arts instructor or Military person. 

I think that with good instruction something of yourself is being given away to your student. A person that is spending extra time and effort to help you gain a personal goal should be offered respect. For this student to make an *** of himself in front of you, your father and the GM is unforgivable.  If there was some kind of a disagreement it should have been handled  behind close doors or in a private setting.  

Sounds like this friendship was in trouble due to some previous "smelly" things that went down previously. You gave him the benefits of many doubts, he failed not you. It also sounds like you were opening yourself up to his friendship and he shot you down.  This always hurts and I am sorry you had to go thru this.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> I can't see Matt's school unless they have a huge amount of students making any profit from charging 30 quid a month and he's already said they aren't commercial.



The price may be consistent with the area. The amount of profit isn't the point - it's where it goes. If it goes in someone's pocket it's a commercial school. It may be simply be supplemental income.


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## matt.m (Dec 8, 2008)

Hey K,

I appreciate the apology.  Sincerely I do.  Consider the following definitions according to dictionary.com....
Lying:      A false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
Betrayal:  To lead astray; deceive. See Synonyms at deceive.

However, I grew up in farm country in a scottish clan where your word was your bond and that is all you were judged on.

I had to temporarily remove a student from my class last year because he had issues outside of class domestically.  He has and is continuing counciling and treatment.  I talk to the guy once a week and told him as long as he keeps attempting to get better I would let him come back.  Not only is he returning Thursday for Judo but I am not asking him to pay until Jan.

The commercial schools in St. L charge 100-150 a month eft draft etc.  We put money in, (The black belts) for the rent and utilities on occasion.  We have old equipment and it is more or less a sweaty dungeon.  But it is the smell of hard training, blood, sweat and tears.  We have a good mat, but we had to wait a long time for repair etc.  

I guess our school is like the Marine Corps in a way, "You have to really want it to be there."  A lot of people can't grasp taking 4-6 years of consistent training to even be considered as a black belt candidate.  That I don't understand.  It takes so many reps for someone to get the basis of a technique.  I believe 10,000 is the bar dad has set for himself and always told me.  There are hobbiest in our org. sure.  They come to tournaments, do the best they can and have a lot of fun.  I guess growing up the son of now a sixth dan just gave me a little different perspective on things and how they should be.

Either way it makes no difference, I appreciate the apology and thank you for it.  Oh, and by the way......I sent a lot of people to crappy details, the brig, drunk tank etc. while in the military that I didn't want to necessarily do.  However, it was the right thing to do.  I am a firm believer in rehabilitation, I myself am a product of it.  I have done the anger management class and see folks for P.T.S.D. weekly.  Like I said I am no saint by any stretch of the imagination but I try my best to always put my best foot forward and have honesty and integrity.


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## Kumbajah (Dec 8, 2008)

I'm just expressing my sympathy.  Although I have the feeling you may think I was being a dick or didn't get it - I was just trying to frame the issue in a way that may help you see it more clearly. 

On the personal interaction level it is not the same environment as the military so you shouldn't expect the bonds to be the same. Not everyone you train or train with will become your brothers in arms. Some are just coming in to learn "some cool stuff" and will be on their way. Try not to take it personally. It's not a reflection on you. They are just coming for what they paid for. If you choose to give more - it has to be with the understanding that it unconditional or you may get hurt again.  The way they choose to honor your gift is on them. Not every one has the sense of honor and responsibility that you've developed. 

On the professional level my point is this - it's not your school - it's your GM's school. If you are going to teach there you are subject to his wishes and behavioral standards because it is his school. If he makes $1 a year or $100000 a year it's a commercial school. ( or occasionally loses money) Your behavior affects that number. The amount of students affects that number. So you may have to put up with some BS. People are paying for a service which they expect to be rendered. Who he chooses to sell that service to and for how much is his choice.  You have to respect his professional standards even if they are at odds with your personal ones. If you can't see it though that lens then you may start to take things personally which it isn't - it's just business.


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## hapkidonet (Dec 11, 2008)

Without getting into the specifics of this particular situation, I want to address the question of what to do when betrayed.

There are two ways you can respond.

1. You can stop trusting people, stop extending yourself in ways that would get you hurt. The problem with that is that you end up "safe" but alone, cynical and bitter.

2. Or you can make a conscious choice to keep on believing in the fundamental goodness of people, and giving them the benefit of the doubt. You might end your relationship with the particular person who betrayed you, but in general you choose to continue having faith in people, knowing full well that you might get burned from time to time.

I choose the latter. Yes, sometimes I loan money and it doesn't get paid back, or I extend myself to a friend and they don't return the favor. Every now and then I get hurt. But I maintain my faith in humanity and in friendship because I don't want to pass on cynicism and mistrust to my children. Life is short and in the end you suffer the greatest betrayal of all, that of your own failing body. What you'll remember and be proud of in the end are the acts of kindness that you committed, the good that you did in the world. You'll never look back and think, "I was too trusting, I shouldn't have let that guy burn me that one time."

This was not meant as a commentary on any particular's person's behavior. Just my general philosophy of friendship and life.


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## matt.m (Dec 11, 2008)

You know, after a week of contemplation I just literally let it go.  I talked it over with the "Culprit" talked about concerns and we made nice.


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## kidswarrior (Dec 11, 2008)

matt.m said:


> However, I grew up in farm country in a scottish clan where your word was your bond and that is all you were judged on.
> 
> I had to temporarily remove a student from my class last year because he had issues outside of class domestically.  He has and is continuing counciling and treatment.  I talk to the guy once a week and told him as long as he keeps attempting to get better I would let him come back.  Not only is he returning Thursday for Judo but I am not asking him to pay until Jan.
> 
> Oh, and by the way......I sent a lot of people to crappy details, the brig, drunk tank etc. while in the military that I didn't want to necessarily do.  However, it was the right thing to do.  I am a firm believer in rehabilitation, I myself am a product of it.  I have done the anger management class and see folks for P.T.S.D. weekly.  Like I said I am no saint by any stretch of the imagination but I try my best to always put my best foot forward and have honesty and integrity.


So much for Matt doing this as a commercial venture. Just as he didn't serve in the USMC for the pay, even though he got paid. 

I've known Matt here on MT awhile now, and so have long known his passion for doing the right thing, and being *solid* with people. But this thread has made it obvious he goes way out of his way to make his MA group like family. And it's equally obvious to me--as a professional teacher the past 20 years--that lives are being affected for the good. That's way above and beyond, in my book.


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