# Aiki Jiu Jitsu



## vince1 (Sep 13, 2017)

I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan. 

So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art. 

Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 13, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.
> 
> So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.
> 
> Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?


Shioda's art (I've heard various names for it - most often, I've heard it called Yoshinkan Aikido) is derived mainly (not exclusively) from Ueshiba's early development and teaching of what became Aikido (IIRC, it was mostly called Aiki Jujutsu around the time Shioda started training with him). It uses many of the same techniques and principles as Ueshiba's art, as seen through the other lineages. But I've been told it uses harder locks and more striking. I've been told NGA (my primary art) looks like Yoshinkan, so I suspect Yoshinkan also works a bit closer at times than most Aikido, and will use direct lines. It probably also doesn't rest entirely on "aiki" approaches, though that impression is entirely derived from comments about its similarity to NGA.

I've seen some video of Shioda when he was reasonably young, and he committed his weight into powering techniques far more than I see commonly in Ueshiba's Aikido.


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## vince1 (Sep 14, 2017)

Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.

I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the  differences. 

The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 14, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.
> 
> I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the  differences.
> 
> The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.


That last bit is because of the "aiki" (which is difficult to define, and if you ask 10 informed people for definitions, you'll probably get at least a dozen responses).

As a note, to avoid confusion, there are two uses of "Aikido". One (the most commonly recognized) is as the name of the art founded by Ueshiba. The other is the grouping created in the early 1940's (IIRC - going from memory here) by the Dai-Nippon Butokku-kai. The latter appears to predate the former usage. Under the DNBK usage, Shioda's art/style (and its derivations) are all "Aikido", as is Nihon Goshin Aikido (not derived from Ueshiba's art - a cousin with a shared ancestor). So, when Corrothers says it is not "Aikido", he is referring (almost certainly) to Ueshiba's art.


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## vince1 (Sep 14, 2017)

Yes you are correct and Carrothers made mention of Ueshiba's art.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 14, 2017)

I spent some time in something similar, I can't say how closely related. Methaphorically, it's "the one that got away" for me. Take advantage of the opportunity you have and go as far and as deep as you can.


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## vince1 (Sep 14, 2017)

ShortBridge said:


> I spent some time in something similar, I can't say how closely related. Methaphorically, it's "the one that got away" for me. Take advantage of the opportunity you have and go as far and as deep as you can.



Yes that's how I am looking at it as well. Master Carrothers is in his mid seventies and is a wealth of knowledge . I am training in a private setting with him and one of his students that has been training with him for 15 years.


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## ShortBridge (Sep 14, 2017)

Perfect.

Regardless of what you may do someday, when opportunities like this present themselves, you just have to go with them.


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## Yamabushii (Sep 28, 2017)

Recently learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Many consider Aikijujutsu to be superior to Jujutsu.


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.
> 
> So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.
> 
> Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?


Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido.  Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school. 


vince1 said:


> Right now I am starting with the very basics and will eventually learn the complete system. I was told that wrist locks, arm locks, throwing techniques ,kicking techniques, rolling techniques, striking/blocking techniques ,grappling as well as over 60 pressure points are part of the traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu system.
> 
> I was told that many years ago after Shioda died their were big changes to Yoshinkai in North America and Koshida (Shioda main student) refused to change his old style Aiki Jiu Jitsu and parted ways with the original Yoshiinkai club in Japan. Master Carrothers made it very clear to me that what he teaches is not Aikido in his words described the  differences.
> 
> The one thing that impressed me the most so far has been how little effort it takes to bring your opponent to the ground once you have mastered the technique.He has made it very clear that this martial art is not about power, but technique.


There is nothing called "Traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu" I have no idea what rolling techniques refers to. Aikijujutsu is like adding Yang to Yang until it become Yin, to understand Aikijujutsu is to understand the sword are my advice to you if you are interested in learning this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Yamabushii said:


> Recently learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Many consider Aikijujutsu to be superior to Jujutsu.


I consider it an extension. It focuses on one area of what Jujutsu does, expands on it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Encho said:


> Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido. Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school.


Daito-ryu is not the only Aiki-oriented Jujutsu. And early in his teaching, Ueshiba called what he taught Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu. In fact, early in his teaching, he taught Daito-ryu.


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

Yamabushii said:


> Recently learned Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Many consider Aikijujutsu to be superior to Jujutsu.


In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Daito-ryu is not the only Aiki-oriented Jujutsu. And early in his teaching, Ueshiba called what he taught Jujutsu or Aikijujutsu. In fact, early in his teaching, he taught Daito-ryu.


Dear Gpseymour, There are other ryuha that may have used Aiki in their scrolls/name however most if not all these schools either no longer exist, are not taught outside of Japan. Ueshiba had a Menkyo in Daito ryu however, watching him and other Daito ryu teachers even those from Hakko ryu there is a huge difference. 
As I have said before most people using Aikijujutsu are students of Aikido teachers and are not doing Aikijujutsu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Encho said:


> In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher


In fact, there’s a story that Kano (who apparently didn’t want Judo to become the sport-oriented art it became) once said to Ueahiba, “This is what Judo could have been.”


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Encho said:


> Dear Gpseymour, There are other ryuha that may have used Aiki in their scrolls/name however most if not all these schools either no longer exist, are not taught outside of Japan. Ueshiba had a Menkyo in Daito ryu however, watching him and other Daito ryu teachers even those from Hakko ryu there is a huge difference.
> As I have said before most people using Aikijujutsu are students of Aikido teachers and are not doing Aikijujutsu.


None of that changes the legitimacy of Shioda calling the what he taught Aikijujutsu. Nor, really, anyone else using the term.


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In fact, there’s a story that Kano (who apparently didn’t want Judo to become the sport-oriented art it became) once said to Ueahiba, “This is what Judo could have been.”


Perhaps, I don't know I do not practice Gendai arts.


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> None of that changes the legitimacy of Shioda calling the what he taught Aikijujutsu. Nor, really, anyone else using the term.


Gpseymour, what he was learning was during a transition from Daito ryu Aikijujutsu to Aikibudo to Aikido. Shioda refers to what he does as Yoshinkan AIKIDO.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 28, 2017)

Encho said:


> Gpseymour, what he was learning was during a transition from Daito ryu Aikijujutsu to Aikibudo to Aikido. Shioda refers to what he does as Yoshinkan AIKIDO.


And there’s nothing wrong with differentiating Shioda’s early teaching as Aikijujutsu. (Unless we want to be sticklers about -jutsu versus -do, but that argument has little merit outside Japan, but maybe some inside.)


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## Encho (Sep 28, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> And there’s nothing wrong with differentiating Shioda’s early teaching as Aikijujutsu. (Unless we want to be sticklers about -jutsu versus -do, but that argument has little merit outside Japan, but maybe some inside.)


Which goes back to the original statement:
*"Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido." *I really hate to be a stickler, but someone who does koryu arts there is a big difference in feeling vs how a gendai art is done. It really isn't fair or accurate to Vince or other people looking for legit Aikijujutsu to think that Yoshinkai is in fact Aikijujutsu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> Which goes back to the original statement:
> *"Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido." *I really hate to be a stickler, but someone who does koryu arts there is a big difference in feeling vs how a gendai art is done. It really isn't fair or accurate to Vince or other people looking for legit Aikijujutsu to think that Yoshinkai is in fact Aikijujutsu.


There's significant debate of whether Daito-ryu is koryu. Outside of koryu, most folks don't really focus on "Jutsu" versus "do". The name doesn't tell most consumers much until they hear it explained and/or see it performed. Someone who knows enough to know the difference, will likely see the difference as soon as they step in the school. So there's little chance of it being misleading to anyone.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> There's significant debate of whether Daito-ryu is koryu. Outside of koryu, most folks don't really focus on "Jutsu" versus "do". The name doesn't tell most consumers much until they hear it explained and/or see it performed. Someone who knows enough to know the difference, will likely see the difference as soon as they step in the school. So there's little chance of it being misleading to anyone.


Ok, I do other koryu besides daito ryu, and daito ryu has a closer connection to koryu then gendai arts, in my opinion, daito ryu is more sophisticated then other classical jujutsu schools. Did the founder create the art, did he take an already existed art and add to it, or we to believe it is over 1000 years old, no one knows or likely will ever know, regardless does not change the fact that yoshinkai is not aikijujutsu and they refer to their art as aikido. 
I think people should understand what art they are actually studying and the characteristics of said art. I do think, if you are studying a do or jutsu art you should understand the context of the difference between them both for clarification and historical value. 
As for the original poster thinks he is doing aikijujutsu I think someone who actually does aikijujutsu should clarify things.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> Ok, I do other koryu besides daito ryu, and daito ryu has a closer connection to koryu then gendai arts, in my opinion, daito ryu is more sophisticated then other classical jujutsu schools. Did the founder create the art, did he take an already existed art and add to it, or we to believe it is over 1000 years old, no one knows or likely will ever know, regardless does not change the fact that yoshinkai is not aikijujutsu and they refer to their art as aikido.
> I think people should understand what art they are actually studying and the characteristics of said art. I do think, if you are studying a do or jutsu art you should understand the context of the difference between them both for clarification and historical value.
> As for the original poster thinks he is doing aikijujutsu I think someone who actually does aikijujutsu should clarify things.


In my opinion, the names aren’t terribly important in identifying an art, except where they clearly misidentify it as a different art. “Yoshinkan Aikijujutsu” is just a name, used to differentiate one branch of Shioda’s teaching. It doesn’t lead people to believe anything inaccurate. You or me insisting they use a name that (perhaps incorrectly) names it the same as another branch of Shioda’s teaching doesn’t seem helpful.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> In my opinion, the names aren’t terribly important in identifying an art, except where they clearly misidentify it as a different art. “Yoshinkan Aikijujutsu” is just a name, used to differentiate one branch of Shioda’s teaching. It doesn’t lead people to believe anything inaccurate. You or me insisting they use a name that (perhaps incorrectly) names it the same as another branch of Shioda’s teaching doesn’t seem helpful.


It's not called yoshinkai aikijutsu,it is called yoshinkai aikido. I did not coin the term that is what it is called. I have seen students try to use the title they teach aikijujutsu under the yoshinkai and it looks like aikido pure and simple. If you want to refer to it as aikijujutsu then fine, others who actually do aikijujutsu will just roll their eyes.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> It's not called yoshinkai aikijutsu,it is called yoshinkai aikido. I did not coin the term that is what it is called. I have seen students try to use the title they teach aikijujutsu under the yoshinkai and it looks like aikido pure and simple. If you want to refer to it as aikijujutsu then fine, others who actually do aikijujutsu will just roll their eyes.


Words’ meanings are not static. They only mean what people agree they mean. If they use that name for their branch, then that is the name of the branch, whether I, you, or anyone else agrees with them or not.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Words’ meanings are not static. They only mean what people agree they mean. If they use that name for their branch, then that is the name of the branch, whether I, you, or anyone else agrees with them or not.


Gpseymour, as I said before if you want to use the term aikijujutsu to describe this aikido so be it, us aikijujutsu from daito ryu will just shake our head in disbelief. I only commented in case the original poster was looking for authentic aikijujutsu and not some pseudo aikijujutsu with an aikido overtone.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> Gpseymour, as I said before if you want to use the term aikijujutsu to describe this aikido so be it, us aikijujutsu from daito ryu will just shake our head in disbelief. I only commented in case the original poster was looking for authentic aikijujutsu and not some pseudo aikijujutsu with an aikido overtone.


I'm not sure those practicing it will care if folks are shaking their heads and disagreeing about the term. Daito-ryu is neither the only source of aiki arts, nor the arbiter of the term "aikijujutsu". They aren't claiming to be what you are - they're simply differentiating themselves from another branch of Shioda's teaching.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not sure those practicing it will care if folks are shaking their heads and disagreeing about the term. Daito-ryu is neither the only source of aiki arts, nor the arbiter of the term "aikijujutsu". They aren't claiming to be what you are - they're simply differentiating themselves from another branch of Shioda's teaching.


Gpseymour, I have seen from your posts you are a man who likes to debate and argue, I'll leave you to do so with your self. 
Enjoy your life sir.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> Gpseymour, I have seen from your posts you are a man who likes to debate and argue, I'll leave you to do so with your self.
> Enjoy your life sir.


When you make definitive statements arguing ownership of a term, expect there to be others who may disagree with you.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> When you make definitive statements arguing ownership of a term, expect there to be others who may disagree with you.


You are more than welcome to be an aikido practitioner in disagreement with someone who practices daito ryu aikijujutsu and 3 other koryu arts.  Have a nice day!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> You are more than welcome to be an aikido practitioner in disagreement with someone who practices daito ryu aikijujutsu and 3 other koryu arts.  Have a nice day!


You seem to think I'm a practitioner of the style in question. I am not. I am, in fact, an Aikido practitioner. And I do disagree with you, and your involvement in koryu doesn't really give you any advanced claim on truth.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You seem to think I'm a practitioner of the style in question. I am not. I am, in fact, an Aikido practitioner. And I do disagree with you, and your involvement in koryu doesn't really give you any advanced claim on truth.


You practice nihon goshin aikido as I said you are an aikido practitioner. 
My involvement includes practice in aikijujutsu from daito ryu, as well as 3 other koryu arts so perhaps my understanding of aikijujutsu in which I practice in might have some bearing compared to what an aikidoka thinks aikijujutsu is. If you like please tell me what aikijujutsu is, tell me what other koryu besides daito ryu and perhaps yanagi ryu calls their art aikijujutsu. I am open to learn. Also note alot of what is said about aikijujutsu and koryu things are not said online as it is kuden.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> You practice nihon goshin aikido as I said you are an aikido practitioner.
> My involvement includes practice in aikijujutsu from daito ryu, as well as 3 other koryu arts so perhaps my understanding of aikijujutsu in which I practice in might have some bearing compared to what an aikidoka thinks aikijujutsu is. If you like please tell me what aikijujutsu is, tell me what other koryu besides daito ryu and perhaps yanagi ryu calls their art aikijujutsu. I am open to learn. Also note alot of what is said about aikijujutsu and koryu things are not said online as it is kuden.


That's the issue, though. You're talking about the aikijujutsu you practice ("my understanding of aikijujutsu in which I practice"). The style in question is not claiming to be that aikijujutsu. They are simply using the term aikijujutsu to differentiate from another variation from Shioda. The term "aikijujutsu" is descriptive, not definiitive. By that, I mean it describes something about the style (namely, and exclusively, that it is an aiki art). If they called it Yoshinkan Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu, I'd agree with your point, but they do not. That's why I started this by saying that Daito-ryu is not the only aiki-oriented jujutsu (thus, not the only style that could be described by the term "aikijujutsu"). You are essentially asserting ownership of the term "aikijujutsu" for Daito-ryu, and I don't think that's consistent with how everyone sees it. I've run into several off-shoots of various aiki-oriented arts and styles that used "aikijujutsu" instead of "aikido", because "aikido" has been confusingly used as the name of Ueshiba's art. So, some use "aikijujutsu" specifically to differentiate from that art.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

The OP says he is it at least his teacher is teaching aikijujutsu, when in fact what he is learning is aikido, the founder of his school calls it aikido. 

I would say aikijujutsu has certain characteristics that make it unique enough to tell it is different from other martial arts. I would say if we are talking about a koryu then aikijujutsu has a more combat orient focus giving it a different feel then anything aikido could give, or duplicate. 
Daito ryu is not the only aiki orient art it is however uniquely called aikijujutsu unless you know of another koryu art using the term aikijujutsu. Further more, aikijujutsu is not the highest level of aiki, compare to aiki no jutsu. As you stated you run into offshoots that use the term aikijujutsu however, they are gendai and often a mashup of karate judo and aikido. Aikijujutsu is not copyrighted so noone owns it, just like noone owns the word ninjutsu, but if you use the term and call a certain art ninjutsu doesn't make it so.  If you truly feel what you do is aikijujutsu then fine it doesn't effect my training even the slightest.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> The OP says he is it at least his teacher is teaching aikijujutsu, when in fact what he is learning is aikido, the founder of his school calls it aikido.
> 
> I would say aikijujutsu has certain characteristics that make it unique enough to tell it is different from other martial arts. I would say if we are talking about a koryu then aikijujutsu has a more combat orient focus giving it a different feel then anything aikido could give, or duplicate.
> Daito ryu is not the only aiki orient art it is however uniquely called aikijujutsu unless you know of another koryu art using the term aikijujutsu. Further more, aikijujutsu is not the highest level of aiki, compare to aiki no jutsu. As you stated you run into offshoots that use the term aikijujutsu however, they are gendai and often a mashup of karate judo and aikido. Aikijujutsu is not copyrighted so noone owns it, just like noone owns the word ninjutsu, but if you use the term and call a certain art ninjutsu doesn't make it so.  If you truly feel what you do is aikijujutsu then fine it doesn't effect my training even the slightest.


My point is linguistic, and I dont' think I've made it well.

"aiki" is a term that isn't exclusive to any one art or branch. "jutsu" is simply the predecessor to "do - while the two were meant to have different meanings, they no longer really do for most people, and folks began using them interchangeably (choosing one or the other) some time ago. There are arts that have been formed after the Meiji restoration that used "jutsu" (Brazilian Jiu-jutsu is just one example, which followed the early naming of Kano's art).

Given those facts (and I'm open to having any of them refuted, though those are all based upon some broad exposure), it's tough to argue that "aikijutsu" or "aikijujutsu" (which I've heard used interchangeably, as well) aren't alternate terms to "aikido" (which, while commonly known as the name of Ueshiba's art, is actually also a designation of a group of arts).

I don't agree with the concept that a koryu (-jutsu) art is by definition more combat oriented than a gendai (-do) art. While that was the original intent, there is no restriction on how combat oriented an Aikido art or style can become. I'd be interested in hearing your reasoning behind this statement.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

I have said before that Daito ryu is not the only art that uses the term aiki however, it is the only one I can think of that is koryu that uses the term  "aikijujutsu" and is active. 
Aikijujutsu and aiki no jutsu differ alot actually. It is hard to describe a koryu art to someone who doesn't do a koryu art.
Combat orient means the mindset is to kill your opponent and he is trying to kill you that is why in the first technique you learn is how to defend against a sword and cut off his head in daito ryu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 29, 2017)

Encho said:


> I have said before that Daito ryu is not the only art that uses the term aiki however, it is the only one I can think of that is koryu that uses the term  "aikijujutsu" and is active.
> Aikijujutsu and aiki no jutsu differ alot actually. It is hard to describe a koryu art to someone who doesn't do a koryu art.
> Combat orient means the mindset is to kill your opponent and he is trying to kill you that is why in the first technique you learn is how to defend against a sword and cut off his head in daito ryu.


That's battlefield combat. That's different from defensive combat for civilians. 

It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are applying koryu mindset to analyzing the use of the terms. Gendai usage is (appears to me, anyway) looser, probably much more influenced by the spread to the Western world. That's probably why you and I see this very differently. To me, it's just words, and as such the meanings are maleable by usage. You expect the words to continue to mean what they've always meant, if I understand your position correctly. So, to you, there is a distinct difference between aikijujustu and aikijutsu (or aiki no jutsu, which I've never heard used to name an  art). My point was and is that the terms do not mislead anyone. Those who (like you) understand the original meanings would also be too well informed to believe what they do is what the name implies to you. To everyone outside your cohort, the name is loosely descriptive at best, and miscommunicates nothing. So, to your point that people should know what they are getting - most folks won't really get that (or be deceived about it) from an art's name.


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## Encho (Sep 29, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That's battlefield combat. That's different from defensive combat for civilians.
> 
> It seems to me (and I may be wrong) that you are applying koryu mindset to analyzing the use of the terms. Gendai usage is (appears to me, anyway) looser, probably much more influenced by the spread to the Western world. That's probably why you and I see this very differently. To me, it's just words, and as such the meanings are maleable by usage. You expect the words to continue to mean what they've always meant, if I understand your position correctly. So, to you, there is a distinct difference between aikijujustu and aikijutsu (or aiki no jutsu, which I've never heard used to name an  art). My point was and is that the terms do not mislead anyone. Those who (like you) understand the original meanings would also be too well informed to believe what they do is what the name implies to you. To everyone outside your cohort, the name is loosely descriptive at best, and miscommunicates nothing. So, to your point that people should know what they are getting - most folks won't really get that (or be deceived about it) from an art's name.


ok...


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## the8th_light (Sep 30, 2017)

Hi vince1,

I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.

I was fortunate to have attended a few of Kushida-sensei's demonstrations, and sat in on one of his classes while I lived in Ann Arbor, Michigan in the early 1990's, shortly after he parted ways with his teacher's organization. Watching him and comparing his work to films of his teacher, they're very much the same. In my opinion, a credit to early Aikido. I was also fortunate enough to have met some of Kushida's students during my time at Eastern Michigan University when they held classes on campus. FYI, EMU's just a few miles East of Ann Arbor.

Shioda's early Yoshinkai and Kushida's Yoshokai have always used the term "Aikido" to describe their teaching and practice. But as far as their Aikido goes, it could be said to be a bit "hard", with more emphasis on striking and pinning, plus a structured curriculum of techniques that's not common with other branches of Aikido, in my opinion. If you watch films of either of them, it's clearly Aikido. I say "clearly" meaning in contrast to Daito-ryu. There is some really cool crossover happening here with Shioda and Kushida and what Ueshiba learned from his Daito-ryu teacher.

Now we get into nomenclature, naming stuff, and unfortunately marketing and personal interpretation blurs it all. What's worse, is that in the '60's some western publications made a really big deal about the differences between "do" and "jutsu". There is no such polarization in Japan. The Japanese see it as one, the same.

Inside Daito-ryu, there is a catalog of techniques  Among them is a set of jujutsu 柔術, aikinojutsu 合気之術, and aikijutsu 合気柔術.

Anyone can name their teachings "aiki jiu jitsu". It's a fad, often an attempt to say "we do it harder" than aikido, so be careful.

I'm a student of Hakkoryu, some might call it an offshoot of Daito-ryu, like Aikido. Hakkoryu's founder was happy to call it all "jujutsu" but many of the interesting things are all included.

Hey vince1, spend time with him! Go out of your way to do it. You might have found a gold mine in your own back yard.


Devon Smith


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 30, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> Hi vince1,
> 
> I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that contribution, Devon. I've heard of Hakkoryu, but know nothing of it. How does it differ in approach from Daito-ryu?


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## the8th_light (Sep 30, 2017)

Hi Gerry,

Having spent a few years investigating and studying two different branches of Daito-ryu, my short answer is "it doesn't differ much". We've tried to put a decent public overview of Hakkoryu on www.hakkoryu.com. Hakkoryu's wikipedia article isn't bad, either.

In regards to the original topic, I feel it's actually pretty important to dive deeper into any school or person using the words "aiki" and "jutsu" (or "jitsu") or even "aikibudo" to describe what they're teaching. There's already been about thirty or forty years of these terms being muddied by improper use in the west.

What it really comes down to is one of two possibilities (though there are a couple of well-known exceptions). One, the person has some background in Daito-ryu. Two, the person does not, but is using the term(s) in an attempt to make a distinction between what they teach and modern Aikido. The latter is what's been clouding the pond in the last few decades.

Devon


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## Encho (Sep 30, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> Hi vince1,
> 
> I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.
> 
> ...


Hi 8th light, I saw the name and thought I wonder if they are a Hakko ryu person lol. I do like Hakko ryu stuffs, We had a Hakko ryu guy who use to come to sword practice and said our Daito ryu is to soft haha!


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## FighterTwister (Sep 30, 2017)

Hello Encho,

The style that you do is it like this....................







Just out of interest thats what I use to do as Aiki Jiu Jitsu i did enjoy it for about 4 years learning all I could but I wanted something different more like Wing Chun and moved across to Jeet Kune Do which I really love and have taken those skills from Aiki Jiu Jitsu over. 

I was doing Wing Chun and was getting bored and after 5 years of doing it and a guy I met at uni invited me to visit and tried it and liked it from the start all the throws and knife defense and joint locks etc were great to learn.

I still have some study material put away covering certain training we did. So I did learn allot and did commit 3 times a wek training and after hours with the guy I met especially from the point of view defending from a base ball bat attack, that we used regularly as given scenarios or other wooden training weapons

What I'm looking for is a wall chart of all the throws and moves with the given names or at least a a PDF File can you help with that at all.

Something like this but more detailed I would love to put on a wall...........
















I'm forgetting a few of the names and types of throws its been 20 years now that I did it, and one of throws that i enjoyed doing is the one where someone runs up to you with a sword you grap the wrist in a flow motion as you step in then turn using the energy of the forward attack in the opposite direction and throw them over.

Kind of like this.............






I really need some good charts to refresh my memory. 

I was going to buy some but they are not cheap all I need is something like the above pics but searching through Google has proven to be difficult can anybody help.

Thanks in advance


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## Encho (Sep 30, 2017)

Dear fighter twister,
I do not practice yoshinkai.
The video has more of a similar approach to daito ryu but to me seems added things to  it. I think the sword part is a good example of the differences. In Daito ryu at least in some cases, we would not wait until the sword has already come down one simple reason it's easy to just turn the sword and cut to the side the other is once the sword is already down where is the "aiki" ? I would say the teacher has a good flow with his uke.

The move you are describing sounds like shiho nage.


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## Yamabushii (Sep 30, 2017)

Encho said:


> In my opinion it depends on what jujutsu ryu-ha. The term Ju and Aiki have similar meaning depending on teacher



Which jujutsu ryu-ha would you say is superior to Daito Ryu? I don't mean to say Daito Ryu is superior to jujutsu as a whole, but as far as ryu-ha go, I don't see any standing above it. Personally, I feel it is the most intricate and effective (once mastered) form of jujutsu.


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## Encho (Sep 30, 2017)

Yamabushii said:


> Which jujutsu ryu-ha would you say is superior to Daito Ryu? I don't mean to say Daito Ryu is superior to jujutsu as a whole, but as far as ryu-ha go, I don't see any standing above it. Personally, I feel it is the most intricate and effective (once mastered) form of jujutsu.


Hi Yamabushii, 
I do not really think Daito ryu is superior or inferior to any other ryuha. I will say it appears to be more sophisticated, complex, and refined compared to most ryuha. It really depends on what other jujutsu school we are talking about.  The other thing is effective at what exactly.


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## the8th_light (Oct 2, 2017)

Encho said:


> Hi Yamabushii,
> I do not really think Daito ryu is superior or inferior to any other ryuha. I will say it appears to be more sophisticated, complex, and refined compared to most ryuha. It really depends on what other jujutsu school we are talking about.  The other thing is effective at what exactly.



I think this answer is a good one, I feel the same. One finds many differences among Daito-ryu schools in fact. Takumakai, Kodokai and others all enjoy much similarity, but differences, too. And there are reasons for it easily explained.

Even in Hakkoryu, which is a smaller school, all the teachers have some new or different input they share, be they in Japan or abroad. It's evident since we try to get everyone together often, and have done a good job over the years of getting together. Hakkoryu still runs much like koryu though, we share the same patterns of practice, in which the principles live.

Devon


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## FighterTwister (Oct 2, 2017)

Can anyone help with Aiki Jiu-Jitsu Charts mentioned in post #43 Please Please Please

Thanks in advance


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## the8th_light (Oct 2, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> Can anyone help with Aiki Jiu-Jitsu Charts mentioned in post #43 Please Please Please
> 
> Thanks in advance




Sorry, no such thing exists.

Devon


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## FighterTwister (Oct 2, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> Sorry, no such thing exists.
> 
> Devon



LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43


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## the8th_light (Oct 2, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43



There aren't any, because we don't make them, and if we did, they'd not be available to the public.

Maybe I can help further. Are you interested in studying? Let me know where you're located, maybe I could suggest a school or private teacher near you for Daitoryu or Hakkoryu. 

Devon


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## FighterTwister (Oct 2, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> There aren't any, because we don't make them, and if we did, they'd not be available to the public.
> 
> Maybe I can help further. Are you interested in studying? Let me know where you're located, maybe I could suggest a school or private teacher near you for Daitoryu or Hakkoryu.
> 
> Devon



LoL

An example if I may .....................  https://www.amazon.com/Ace-Martial-...rd_wg=S3Tdz&psc=1&refRID=ZAFWJPHGFNR30M1QGZAV


or 

https://www.amazon.com/Poster-KARAT...rd_wg=S3Tdz&psc=1&refRID=ZAFWJPHGFNR30M1QGZAV


Is that any clearer LoL


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## Encho (Oct 2, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> LoL they do exist its just sourcing them all I want is even a pdf file or poster or even an image like in post #43



Hi Fighter Twister there really is no Aikijujutsu poster a PDF book maybe on some questionable website, Stanley Pranin(R.I.P.) has/had a Daito ryu learners package that has some great videos of different teachers, a PDF book from the mainline showing the technique and another PDF book on interview and history. I highly recommend it especially the interview book.
Koryu are for the most part private as in for students only learning. What is shown to the public is not main thing kinda of like showing KFC chicken to the public but not the herbs and spices.
If you are interested in learning finding a teacher would be your best bet. I have a teacher and books, videos and notes are references. An example was when performing a set I forgot a part and had to look at a book then recall the lesson with my teacher to perform it.


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## FighterTwister (Oct 2, 2017)

Never mind I  found one I had to pay for it 

Thanks anyways


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 2, 2017)

as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name.  he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido,  if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter.  he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.


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## the8th_light (Oct 2, 2017)

Encho said:


> What is shown to the public is not main thing kinda of like showing KFC chicken to the public but not the herbs and spices.



An excellent metaphor. 

Devon


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## Encho (Oct 2, 2017)

FighterTwister said:


> Never mind I  found one I had to pay for it
> 
> Thanks anyways


Would be curious to see exactly what it is.


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## Encho (Oct 2, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name.  he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido,  if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter.  he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.


I did not know the word "Aikido" is copyrighted.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2017)

Encho said:


> I did not know the word "Aikido" is copyrighted.


It isn't. The relevant legalities here would involve trademark, but I don't believe "Aikido" is trademarked in the U.S.. Perhaps Mr. Toyota was able to intimidate dojo owners who weren't familiar with trademark law.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> as a side note , my aikido teacher Fumio Toyota told about how in the 1960's he would see many schools here in the US using the aikido name.  he would personally go to each of these schools and ask for their credentials from hombu dojo that allows them to use the name and brand Aikido,  if they did not have any he would send them a legal cease and desist letter.  he noticed that many of those schools would simply change the name to aikijujutsu.


I hadn't heard of that. As a side note, he apparently was aware of the larger use of "Aikido" as a group of arts (per the DNBK), as he took a high-ranking NGA instructor to Japan with him on a visit to some of the dojos there. We are not descended from Ueshiba's art, and he would surely be aware of that. So his objection would have been to those using "Aikido" to establish a false link to Ueshiba, or by those without enough experience to actually teach that art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 2, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It isn't. The relevant legalities here would involve trademark, but I don't believe "Aikido" is trademarked in the U.S.. Perhaps Mr. Toyota was able to intimidate dojo owners who weren't familiar with trademark law.


For most folks, it's easier (and perhaps cheaper) to change a sign than to deal with a lawyer.

Given that the Dai-Nippon Buttoku-kai designated "Aikido" as a name for arts of that type, I can't imagine it would have been easy to pursue a trademark case. More likely, he was challenging their use of the name to claim something they didn't have (either a link to their hombu, or rank to teach).


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 2, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> For most folks, it's easier (and perhaps cheaper) to change a sign than to deal with a lawyer.
> 
> Given that the Dai-Nippon Buttoku-kai designated "Aikido" as a name for arts of that type, I can't imagine it would have been easy to pursue a trademark case. More likely, he was challenging their use of the name to claim something they didn't have (either a link to their hombu, or rank to teach).


Even if a single person or organization held a trademark on the name "Aikido" in Japan, it wouldn't give them any standing to pursue a case against someone using the name in the U.S. unless they also obtained a trademark on the name here.


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## hoshin1600 (Oct 2, 2017)

since sensei Toyoda passed many years ago now i cant ask him about it.  but my impression was that there was no legal standing for the use of the name, but we are talking many many years ago.  it was most likely a scare tactic.   aikido was so rare here in the states and such a small knit group everyone knew who was legit and who was not, who was using the name with no back round at all but rather fraudulently making claims for profit.  not unlike BJJ has been.  Toyoda was not about to go around rolling with people and there was no internet to call people out on YouTube.  but my over all point was that fraudulent people would then change the name to aikijujustu  thus muddying the waters


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## frank raud (Oct 2, 2017)

I've taken a few seminars with Pascal Serei in his Ninta-ryu aikijujuttsu. In November, I intend to attend a seminar with one of Alain Floquet's top students in Aikibudo. Are the names appropriate? Don't know. But I used to do seminars with Micheal Lamonica when he was with Hakko-ryu. Now he is Hakko Densho. Sometimes it's just a name.


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## pgsmith (Oct 2, 2017)

Encho said:


> I really hate to be a stickler, but someone who does koryu arts there is a big difference in feeling vs how a gendai art is done. It really isn't fair or accurate to Vince or other people looking for legit Aikijujutsu to think that Yoshinkai is in fact Aikijujutsu.


  The name that is used has no real bearing at all on what is being taught. The biggest differences that I have found between koryu and *most* gendai arts is in the training methodology, not necessarily the end results.



gpseymour said:


> In my opinion, the names aren’t terribly important in identifying an art, except where they clearly misidentify it as a different art. “Yoshinkan Aikijujutsu” is just a name, used to differentiate one branch of Shioda’s teaching. It doesn’t lead people to believe anything inaccurate. You or me insisting they use a name that (perhaps incorrectly) names it the same as another branch of Shioda’s teaching doesn’t seem helpful.


  I agree.



gpseymour said:


> When you make definitive statements arguing ownership of a term, expect there to be others who may disagree with you.


  This is very true. Most especially when discussing Japanese arts. The Japanese language is very much context driven, and the words used for any given situation will change depending on a great many factors. Those of European descent tend to try and assign hard definitions to Japanese words and phrases, but that leads to arguments and misunderstanding. Far better to simply go on and tend to one's own training.



frank raud said:


> I've taken a few seminars with Pascal Serei in his Ninta-ryu aikijujuttsu. In November, I intend to attend a seminar with one of Alain Floquet's top students in Aikibudo. Are the names appropriate? Don't know. But I used to do seminars with Micheal Lamonica when he was with Hakko-ryu. Now he is Hakko Densho. Sometimes it's just a name.


  Yep, I agree completely.


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## Encho (Oct 2, 2017)

Hi pgsmith,
Unfortunately a name has a particular meaning behind it, you really can't call someone doing sword and call it aikijujutsu.


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## the8th_light (Oct 3, 2017)

Hi Encho,

You're correct in principle, but unfortunately the description of a practice really cannot be protected legally in Japan, or abroad, and I feel your pain.

Really, anyone can call their practice X-do and Y-jutsu/jitsu, and Z-aikijujutsu/jujitsu/jiujitsu or anything else.

It's up to each organization to legally protect their own name, usually with trademark.

In Japan, things are a bit more strict in this regard. Elsewhere you never know what you'll see.

For instance, Shogen Okabayashi. A Daitoryu Takumakai student who also studied with Tokimune Takeda, decided to stop using the "Daito-ryu" moniker when he decided to part and go by himself. What started as Hakuhokai is now his Hakuhoryu. And he's great if you get a chance!

Likewise, Yasuhiro Irie, a longtime student of Hakkoryu, left to form Kokodo Jujutsu. While his background was Hakkoryu, he's made it all his own. And he's got some offshoots too!

Devon


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## pgsmith (Oct 3, 2017)

Encho said:


> Unfortunately a name has a particular meaning behind it, you really can't call someone doing sword and call it aikijujutsu.


  While this is true to some degree, it is also the Japanese language we are talking about here. You *can* call someone doing a sword art iaido,  battodo, or battojutsu, and all be talking about the exact same art. I have heard this very thing after practice in the bar in Japan speaking with Japanese instructors about Toyama ryu. Japanese is very context driven, and you cannot make definitive statements assigning a single definition to anything Japanese. It will only lead to frustration because there will always be exceptions. Aikijujutsu is a descriptive, not a name. Therefore, it can be applied to any number of named arts if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making.


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## Encho (Oct 3, 2017)

Hi pgsmith, 
Can you please give an example of the word aikijujutsu being used as a description for something other than an art that practices aikijujutsu?
I personally have never heard anyone in USA or Japan use the word aikido or aikijujutsu as a description for any other thing maybe taisabaki or aiki being applied to different arts. From what I recall takeda called his art jujutsu and not aikijujutsu which later on he called it in reference to his art.


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## pgsmith (Oct 3, 2017)

Encho said:


> Can you please give an example of the word aikijujutsu being used as a description for something other than an art that practices aikijujutsu?
> I personally have never heard anyone in USA or Japan use the word aikido or aikijujutsu as a description for any other thing maybe taisabaki or aiki being applied to different arts. From what I recall takeda called his art jujutsu and not aikijujutsu which later on he called it in reference to his art.



  I never said that it was used as a descriptive for an art that doesn't practice it in some form, you seem to be reading something other than what I have written. Perhaps you could explain to me how I have said what you appear to have heard?

   Aikijujutsu went through the same bloom in the late 2000's as jujutsu did in the 1990's, and ninjutsu did in the 1980's. When they got popular, you started seeing a lot of 'arts' crop up with that in their name to take advantage of the popularity. Therefore, there are now quite a number of arts that use the word 'aikijujutsu' somewhere in their descriptive, just as there were a lot of 'jujutsu' schools that sprang up in the 1990's, and 'ninjutsu' schools that appeared in the 1980's. I could not tell you if they employ actual aiki principles without going and experiencing them for myself. Therefore, I am uncomfortable with someone else saying that's not what they do without having direct experience with them. Why do you feel you are qualified to do so?


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## Encho (Oct 3, 2017)

Hi Pgsmith


> Aikijujutsu is a descriptive, not a name. *Therefore, it can be applied to any number of named arts if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making.  *


 One would get the impression that since Aikijujutsu is a descriptive word  as you say then it can apply to any number of named arts(Karate for example) if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making. Taken in to what you said before about Sword name and Japanese context would would conclude given the impression you meant it this way.

I do practice Daito ryu Aikijujutsu among other Koryu arts so I will leave it at that in regard to the rest of your post.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 3, 2017)

Encho said:


> I do practice Daito ryu Aikijujutsu among other Koryu arts so I will leave it at that in regard to the rest of your post.


Here's the issue, to me, Encho. If you said, "I practice Aikijujutsu", I'd have to ask, "Is it Daito-ryu?" You included Daito-ryu as an identifier because it's part of the name. Without it, it's a reference to a category or class, not a specific art/style. If someone attaches "Aikijujutsu" to another name, nobody is confused that it's Daito-ryu.


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## Encho (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi Gpseymour

Aikijujutsu the term from my understanding was coined by Takeda. So there really is no other Aikijujutsu or I should say no other authentic Aikijujutsu if it does have roots tracing back to Daito ryu. There actually is/was another Daito ryu so that may be why Takeda changed the name it could have been a suggestion from Ueshiba, I would have to look into Stanley's book to find that. 

The term Aikijutsu, Aiki no jutsu, Aiki  are  more generic terms and has been used in different koryu to describe things.


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## pgsmith (Oct 4, 2017)

Encho said:


> One would get the impression that since Aikijujutsu is a descriptive word as you say then it can apply to any number of named arts(Karate for example) if the speaker decides that it conveys the point that he's making. Taken in to what you said before about Sword name and Japanese context would would conclude given the impression you meant it this way.


  I'm sorry, I assumed that you would have a better grasp of the English language. I apologize if my ideas were too advanced for you to keep up with. Calling karate aikijujutsu would be incredibly stupid don't you think?



Encho said:


> Aikijujutsu the term from my understanding was coined by Takeda. So there really is no other Aikijujutsu or I should say no other authentic Aikijujutsu if it does have roots tracing back to Daito ryu. There actually is/was another Daito ryu so that may be why Takeda changed the name it could have been a suggestion from Ueshiba, I would have to look into Stanley's book to find that



  Ah, you're one of those rabid "aikijujutsu is ours and only ours" Daito ryu folks.  I have met a few of you in the past. To me, that's akin to British soccer fans getting up in arms about American football because football was first called that in England, and American football is nothing like *real* football!  I'll not debate it with you further as it's a bit of a pointless debate. 

  Cheers!


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## Encho (Oct 4, 2017)

Hi pgsmith,
When communicating it is a two way road if the sender sends out a message that may read differently especially when prior context was used then the person receiving may take the prior context to be on same topic. Sorry for misunderstanding what you meant.

As stated before, aikijujutsu was uniquely coined by takeda and there is or no other koryu school using aikijujutsu at least to my knowledge. If other arts are using the term, fine no trademark or copyright on the word, it doesn't affect my training or what I know.


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## vince1 (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> Dear Vince, Yoshinkai is not Aikijujutsu but Aikido, A harder version perhaps but still Aikido.  Shioda did train with Ueshiba during the pre-war days during when it was going through the change to Aikido. If there is anything related to Aikijujutsu it would be found from Daito ryu. There are some similarities to Aikido and Daito ryu but there are some things that are way different. I have met several Aikido teachers who practice Aikibujutsu or Aikijujutsu based on previous Aikido teachers adding things. If you enjoy your training then by all means keep practicing, If you are looking for actual Aikijujutsu my opinion is to find a Daito ryu school.
> 
> There is nothing called "Traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu" I have no idea what rolling techniques refers to. Aikijujutsu is like adding Yang to Yang until it become Yin, to understand Aikijujutsu is to understand the sword are my advice to you if you are interested in learning this.




Master Carrothers has made it very clear that what he teaches is a complete Aki Jiu Jitsu system and that it is not Aikido. In fact his nephew that lives a few hours away is a practitioner of Aikido. He has trained with his nephew on many occasions and was shocked in finding out how incomplete the Aikido system really is compared to what he teaches. He was able to demonstrate to me some of the techniques his nephew had learned and then add the missing parts/technique.


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Master Carrothers has made it very clear that what he teaches is a complete Aki Jiu Jitsu system and that it is not Aikido. In fact his nephew that lives a few hours away is a practitioner of Aikido. He has trained with his nephew on many occasions and was shocked in finding out how incomplete the Aikido system really is compared to what he teaches. He was able to demonstrate to me some of the techniques his nephew had learned and then add the missing parts/technique.


Dear Vince1,
If he is teaching based on Yoshinkan as it comes through Shioda Gozo then he is teaching a version of Aikido and even calls it Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.

If you do a google search of Shioda and Yoshinkan you will find Aikido. It may be a harder version of Aikido it may have been added things but it is not authentic Aikijujutsu. The only true Aikijujutsu comes through the Daito ryu line unless someone can point another school that is not some gendai or associated with Daito ryu such as an offshoot using the term. As it stands from my recollection of Stanley Pranin in his book that Takeda created the term Aikijujutsu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> Dear Vince1,
> If he is teaching based on Yoshinkan as it comes through Shioda Gozo then he is teaching a version of Aikido and even calls it Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.
> 
> If you do a google search of Shioda and Yoshinkan you will find Aikido. It may be a harder version of Aikido it may have been added things but it is not authentic Aikijujutsu. The only true Aikijujutsu comes through the Daito ryu line unless someone can point another school that is not some gendai or associated with Daito ryu such as an offshoot using the term. As it stands from my recollection of Stanley Pranin in his book that Takeda created the term Aikijujutsu.


Ueshiba was authorized to teach Daito-ryu, and did so before he changed it to become what was later known as Aikido. It is entirely possible that this branch of Shioda's teaching is descended from that more directly, rather than from what we'd recognize as Aikido.


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Ueshiba was authorized to teach Daito-ryu, and did so before he changed it to become what was later known as Aikido. It is entirely possible that this branch of Shioda's teaching is descended from that more directly, rather than from what we'd recognize as Aikido.


Shioda calls his art Aikido so his art is Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.
If want to be more correct to say what was taught was  Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Ueshiba Aikibudo as that was what was being taught during that transition period. 
The feel of Yoshinkan doesn't have a Daito ryu feel to it and has more of an Aikido feel to it at least when I have visited dojo's this same thing also goes to Aikibujutsu, Tomiki, Tenshin, etc etc.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> Shioda calls his art Aikido so his art is Aikido and not Aikijujutsu.
> If want to be more correct to say what was taught was  Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Ueshiba Aikibudo as that was what was being taught during that transition period.
> The feel of Yoshinkan doesn't have a Daito ryu feel to it and has more of an Aikido feel to it at least when I have visited dojo's this same thing also goes to Aikibujutsu, Tomiki, Tenshin, etc etc.


I don't know what goes on in that particular line. Do you? I know what I've seen of Yoshinkan has some similarities to other lines of Ueshiba's art, but contains a lot I don't see in most of the others (Tomiki is a partial exception).

You're really tied up on them not using the "Aikijujutsu" term, even though they are, in fact, descended from Daito-ryu. I'm not sure why, but you're determined to have it exactly your way, with no room for anyone else's thoughts nor any discussion. You just keep coming back to the same points, even when they don't seem to apply.


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I don't know what goes on in that particular line. Do you? I know what I've seen of Yoshinkan has some similarities to other lines of Ueshiba's art, but contains a lot I don't see in most of the others (Tomiki is a partial exception).
> 
> You're really tied up on them not using the "Aikijujutsu" term, even though they are, in fact, descended from Daito-ryu. I'm not sure why, but you're determined to have it exactly your way, with no room for anyone else's thoughts nor any discussion. You just keep coming back to the same points, even when they don't seem to apply.


Once again Yoshinkan calls itself *AIKIDO *it does not call itself Aikijujutsu that is all to it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> Once again Yoshinkan calls itself *AIKIDO *it does not call itself Aikijujutsu that is all to it.


Apparently, not all of Yoshinkan does that. You seem quite sure of yourself for someone outside that group.


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Apparently, not all of Yoshinkan does that. You seem quite sure of yourself for someone outside that group.


Gpseymour, Yoshinkan as founded by the founder calls it Aikido thus in respect the art should be called what the founder intended it to be called by.

I do not see any websites in Japanese or any references made by students of Gozo from Japan or really anyone else but a very few mostly Americans calling it Aikijujutsu, do you think it is just slightly possible that they may be wrong in their use of calling it Aikijujutsu when everyone else including the founder does not refer to what he does as Aikijujutsu?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> Gpseymour, Yoshinkan as founded by the founder calls it Aikido thus in respect the art should be called what the founder intended it to be called by.
> 
> I do not see any websites in Japanese or any references made by students of Gozo from Japan or really anyone else but a very few mostly Americans calling it Aikijujutsu, do you think it is just slightly possible that they may be wrong in their use of calling it Aikijujutsu when everyone else including the founder does not refer to what he does as Aikijujutsu?


Now you are the arbiter of all that is Yoshinkan, too??


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Now you are the arbiter of all that is Yoshinkan, too??


 No matter what you say Gpseymour, the fact of the matter is Gozo the founder of this style never called his art Aikijujutsu, In his interviews he always says Aikido PERIOD.
So I am not sure what you are trying to say as I did not name Gozo's art AIKIDO he did so if it bothers you that he named it AIKIDO and NOT AIKIJUJUTSU well I guess you will have to take it up with the organization in Japan.


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

Vince1 if you and your teacher are happy to call your art Aikijujutsu I personally do not care either way it does not affect my training though if I were training in an art I would respect the founder of the art I study and call it what he called it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

Encho said:


> No matter what you say Gpseymour, the fact of the matter is Gozo the founder of this style never called his art Aikijujutsu, In his interviews he always says Aikido PERIOD.
> So I am not sure what you are trying to say as I did not name Gozo's art AIKIDO he did so if it bothers you that he named it AIKIDO and NOT AIKIJUJUTSU well I guess you will have to take it up with the organization in Japan.


You are certain he never referred to it as aikijujutsu, even to some of his students? That's an awful lot of absolutism.

I don't have to take anything up with anyone. You seem to be all up in arms about a word. A word probably coined by Takeda, but then all words were probably coined by someone (Ueshiba was likely not the first to use the term "Aikido"). That doesn't restrict the word's use to that initial usage, absent some form of ownership (trademark, etc.).


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## Encho (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> You are certain he never referred to it as aikijujutsu, even to some of his students? That's an awful lot of absolutism.
> 
> I don't have to take anything up with anyone. You seem to be all up in arms about a word. A word probably coined by Takeda, but then all words were probably coined by someone (Ueshiba was likely not the first to use the term "Aikido"). That doesn't restrict the word's use to that initial usage, absent some form of ownership (trademark, etc.).


Gpseymour, I nor anyone was  with Gozo every second of his life but if the man named his art AIKIDO said in interviews AIKIDO wrote books called AIKIDO why on earth would you think Aikijujutsu? Is it possible he said to someone I am teaching you Aikijujutsu, I learned Aikijujutsu, My license is Aikijujutsu and some how in translation it got mixed up?
Is there any support that Gozo may have said anything that he teaches Aikijujutsu I do not see it, Stanley Pranin interviewed him and based on the research it most likely he learned Daito ryu Ueshiba ha or Aikibudo during the transition period to Aikido. 

If I am understanding your position, is that Aikijujutsu is a generic term like Taijutsu or Aiki which in fact it is not. Yawara, Wajutsu and other Jujutsu terms are generic however Aikijujutsu is uniquely Takeda's and pertains to Daito ryu specifically. Takeda did not trademark it just like other koryu did not trademark their name 400 years ago.
If I am to understand your position you feel that because Gozo has a license in a Daito ryu, then Yoshinkan can/should say they practice Aikijujutsu even if the founder refers to his art as Aikido? 

I am not hung up on the word as I am simply saying the usage seems to be incorrect in reference to Gozo's art in which he refers to his own art as Aikido.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

@oaktree, I'd be interested in hearing your input. Thus far, I've been unable to get more than one point out of Encho, and a point that I think misses how language develops. If you have another view on why aikijujutsu shouldn't be used, I'd like to hear it.


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## oaktree (Oct 13, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @oaktree, I'd be interested in hearing your input. Thus far, I've been unable to get more than one point out of Encho, and a point that I think misses how language develops. If you have another view on why aikijujutsu shouldn't be used, I'd like to hear it.



What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?


Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho. 

So the reason you 2 won't agree is because you both are correct in your particular meaning of the word.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 13, 2017)

oaktree said:


> What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?
> 
> 
> Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho.
> ...


I think you've said clearly what my point was. I understand (I think) the view from Daito-ryu purists (not a derogatory term). But once a term exists and is seen as a descriptor, it is common in language for it to be used by others to describe other things they see as fitting the description. Since I've yet to find two people who entirely agree on what "aiki" is, I'm not surprised that some folks would use the term "aikijujutsu" to describe something that others don't think fits the definition.


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## the8th_light (Oct 14, 2017)

Gerry,

You've pretty much summarized the whole thing. But, what is pretty much a generic term today in the west was _not_ in the recent past, and therein lies the friction.

Adding to the friction has been a heap of people, mostly outside Japan, wishing not only to separate themselves from modern Aikido but also to jump on the "jutsu" bandwagon because they want their art to seem tougher, even if it only amounts to their adding a few judo/karate/misc techniques to their basic aikido repertoire.

There are cases _inside_ Japan where care was and is taken to AVOID using the aikijutsu name, BECAUSE it is not considered generic (even when one or two generations away from Takeda!), but even today there are some dubious organizations there that walk/talk and look like and advertise "it" but fail under scrutiny, because they fall under the previous category...rougher aikido with punches/kicks, or even mimicking the original in shape and movement but without an understanding of the underlying principles. Unfortunately for the average prospective student, they can't tell the difference, and we can only hope they start a topic on a martial arts message board asking questions. Whether or not they care about the replies is moot!

What it's come down two in the last thirty-plus years or so, especially since video tapes became a common way to share or sell anything interesting, is "pollution" to put it bluntly, and more than ever the latin phrase "caveat emptor" ("may the buyer beware") is fitting.

Devon


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 14, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> Gerry,
> 
> You've pretty much summarized the whole thing. But, what is pretty much a generic term today in the west was _not_ in the recent past, and therein lies the friction.
> 
> ...


I think one area of the friction might also be the difference in understanding of what "aiki" even is. I've heard one explanation from the elder Kondo Sensei (I've forgotten his personal name), but I suspect it's only part of his definition. It fits one of two I personally use, and I've yet to find two people (even in the same dojo) who give the same answer, unless one is quoting the other (student and instructor, for instance). So, when something is called "aikijutsu/aikijujutsu" (I know they are different things in Daito-ryu and probably in Japanese, but seem to be used somewhat interchangeably when brought into English) and "fails" under scrutiny, it may be that it fails to meet what those in Daito-ryu would look for.

I think the largest issue is that the words, particularly when brought into another language, become approximations, and are often used as descriptors, where the original intent may have been for them to be specific to an art or part of an art. It's the old dictionary problem - dictionaries actually follow usage, rather than dictating it. So, no matter how much it irritates me when someone "misuses" a word (like a friend who uses "infer" to mean "imply"), if it's done enough, the dictionary changes to their usage. I suspect (without any real knowledge to back it up, except interaction with people who know the language) that there's a slower change (and more resistance to it) in the Japanese language, perhaps because of its conceptual (rather than phonetic) nature.


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## Encho (Oct 14, 2017)

oaktree said:


> What is Aikijujutsu合気柔術 exactly? who invented the term? Can anyone use the term? I think Encho has a point at least from a Daito ryu understanding of it and the history context. I think two different points are being talked about in the thread, The first one is Yoshinkan Aikido or Aikjujutsu and the second one seems to be can anyone use the term Aikijujutsu. I do not think Yoshinkan can be classified as Aikijujutsu from a Daito ryu stand point or a koryu stand point simply because its not either, it is its own Gendai creation created as its own thing. Now lets examine it if Shioda called it Daito ryu Aikijujutsu Shioda branch, then yes it would still follow the Daito ryu Aikijujutsu line. Shioda instead choose to follow Ueshiba and call his art Aikido which though shares a link to Daito ryu it is its own thing now. Are the techniques Aikijujutsu then?
> 
> 
> Depends on who you ask, even among Daito ryu people argue who displays the actual Aikijujutsu among the different lines. I think what Encho was saying is many people put Karate to make up for atemi in Aikido and say well now that is Aikijujutsu and then it goes with the other part of the thread can anyone use the term to mean anything or does Aikijujutsu have a set meaning?It is a grey area and there really is no right or wrong answer especially from a purist like Encho.
> ...


Hi oaktree, you said it pretty well I think.


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## vince1 (Oct 15, 2017)

Encho said:


> Vince1 if you and your teacher are happy to call your art Aikijujutsu I personally do not care either way it does not affect my training though if I were training in an art I would respect the founder of the art I study and call it what he called it.



I will try and find out more history behind the martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Master Carrothers. I am very much interested in the origins of this martial art as well as when the separation took place from the Aiki Jiu Jitsu practioners and the others that focused on Aikido. I want to make sure I obtain the correct information why this separation took place along with the timeline as previously discussed with my teacher. 

I am new to this martial art and appreciate everyone's insight.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 15, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I will try and find out more history behind the martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu from Master Carrothers. I am very much interested in the origins of this martial art as well as when the separation took place from the Aiki Jiu Jitsu practioners and the others that focused on Aikido. I want to make sure I obtain the correct information why this separation took place along with the timeline as previously discussed with my teacher.
> 
> I am new to this martial art and appreciate everyone's insight.


Please let us know what you find. I'm curious about the progression, the differences in the principles and techniques used, and the naming choice. Are you, by any chance, aware of any videos (YouTube, etc.) from Mr. Carrothers' organization?


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## Encho (Oct 15, 2017)

Here is a video of Mr. Carrother or at least a Mr. Carrother teaching Aikijujutu. Regardless of it being Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu or just simple martial arts it is a rather poor display.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 15, 2017)

Encho said:


> Here is a video of Mr. Carrother or at least a Mr. Carrother teaching Aikijujutu. Regardless of it being Aikido, Aikijujutsu, Jujutsu or just simple martial arts it is a rather poor display.


That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.


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## Encho (Oct 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.


Just looking at it from a structure point of view it is not very good and does not display any Aikijujutsu or even Aiki for that matter, but if you enjoy it and see Aikijujutsu and think its good that is great!


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 15, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.





Encho said:


> Just looking at it from a structure point of view it is not very good and does not display any Aikijujutsu or even Aiki for that matter, but if you enjoy it and see Aikijujutsu and think its good that is great!



I have no opinion on what it should be called, but it looks to me like the demonstrator has learned the choreography of the techniques without the principles, body mechanics, and details which actually make the techniques work.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 15, 2017)

Encho said:


> Just looking at it from a structure point of view it is not very good and does not display any Aikijujutsu or even Aiki for that matter, but if you enjoy it and see Aikijujutsu and think its good that is great!


None of that is what I said I saw.


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## vince1 (Oct 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> That isn't Mr. Carrothers, according to comments. Those are two brown belts demonstrating techniques for someone working on their "second white" (whatever that is). I recognize the base techniques in there, though it looks like they don't include structure control at that level - just the positioning for it, at least in the forms in that demonstration.



You are absolutely correct about it not being Master Carrothers he was off to the side during the video. They are actually demonstrating techniques slowly for first and second white. And yes they are not including structure and control but in time he does switch the focus to fine tuning the technique. It really depends on the individual and how quickly he/she absorbs what is being taught and able to execute. 

I saw this same video before I joined and thought it was very sloppy and fake. I finally convinced myself to at least sign up for a private class and meet Master Carrothers. I was totally blown away and quickly realized what I had been missing all these years given my martial arts background. I was able to witness many of these same techniques as well as advanced techniques not shown in the video sped up. It was mind blowing !

I actually mentioned to Master Carrothers the video should be removed and an updated one should be put up with advanced students demonstrating the techniques.Apparently an individual came forward 6 years ago and asked Master Carrothers if they could video tape it. The individual was suppose to come back and video tape advanced techniques but for some reason never came back and found out later he moved away. I am currently working on first and second white belt along with sword form #1. The subtle hand technique placement and footwork is making it very interesting. Fortunately my previous mantis martial arts background has helped me with regards to muscle memory. 

I am keeping a very open mind and have always been somewhat of a skeptic but this martial art seems to be more of a fit mentally/physically.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

vince1 said:


> You are absolutely correct about it not being Master Carrothers he was off to the side during the video. They are actually demonstrating techniques slowly for first and second white. And yes they are not including structure and control but in time he does switch the focus to fine tuning the technique. It really depends on the individual and how quickly he/she absorbs what is being taught and able to execute.
> 
> I saw this same video before I joined and thought it was very sloppy and fake. I finally convinced myself to at least sign up for a private class and meet Master Carrothers. I was totally blown away and quickly realized what I had been missing all these years given my martial arts background. I was able to witness many of these same techniques as well as advanced techniques not shown in the video sped up. It was mind blowing !
> 
> ...


I take a fairly neutral view when I see things like what's in that video. I recognize it as a formal technique (what the mainline of my primary art would call a "classical technique"), and I know that sometimes even good practitioners of the style fall into bad habits in those formal techniques, especially when they are teaching them to/demonstrating them for newer students. Newer students tend to do them without good structure control initially, anyway, and sometimes people get into the habit of demonstrating them the way they actually expect the student to replicate them (including those deficiencies).

In other words, I see problems with what's done there, but I know those problems can exist in formal techniques and suddenly vanish in application. IMO, it's not a good habit to get into (treating the formal techniques so differently), but it's not always an indication of a flaw in the overall approach.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

@vince1 - I was interested to see the English naming for those techniques. It seems at least partly a fairly direct translation from some of the Japanese names for them. Our translation to English took a different route, though some of the names are similar.


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## vince1 (Oct 16, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> @vince1 - I was interested to see the English naming for those techniques. It seems at least partly a fairly direct translation from some of the Japanese names for them. Our translation to English took a different route, though some of the names are similar.



I will ask Master Carrothers for my own copy of the curriculum and find out if he is willing to let me share that with you. It doesn't hurt to ask.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 16, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I will ask Master Carrothers for my own copy of the curriculum and find out if he is willing to let me share that with you. It doesn't hurt to ask.


Thank you. If he prefers I make some request myself, I'm more than happy to do so, and to share anything I have with him, if it can be of any use.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 16, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I actually mentioned to Master Carrothers the video should be removed and an updated one should be put up with advanced students demonstrating the techniques


This would be a good idea. I don't know what level brown belts are supposed to be at in your system, but it's not good advertising for the school to have video up of students performing techniques poorly without being corrected.


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## vince1 (Oct 16, 2017)

Tony Dismukes said:


> This would be a good idea. I don't know what level brown belts are supposed to be at in your system, but it's not good advertising for the school to have video up of students performing techniques poorly without being corrected.



I think any martial artist looking in from the outside especially not having any experience in that particular martial art being demonstrated would find fault. I initially did as mentioned earlier by watching the video until I actually was being taught/shown the technique in a classroom setting. It took me a couple of weeks of practicing before I could actually pull it off and feel completely comfortable with it. 

It has been very interesting learning some of the very basic Aiki Jiu jItsu techniques over the last few weeks. I would throw in some of my mantis kung fu in to try and mess up my teacher up. It made my private class very interesting and quickly revealed how good he really was. I regard my Mantis Kung Fu and Tae Kwon Do experience to be a very valuable asset when needed but feel learning the Aiki Jiu Jitsu will prove to be more beneficial.


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## vince1 (Oct 17, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> Thank you. If he prefers I make some request myself, I'm more than happy to do so, and to share anything I have with him, if it can be of any use.


Gerry would you happen to have videos that you could post of lower ranking and higher ranking belts demonstrating Nihon Goshin Aikido ?Thank you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 17, 2017)

vince1 said:


> Gerry would you happen to have videos that you could post of lower ranking and higher ranking belts demonstrating Nihon Goshin Aikido ?Thank you.


I don't have any, though there are some on YouTube. John Carter's approach is closer to my own view than most. There's one marketing video by Robert MacEwen that just flashes through a number of the classical forms.

If you browse through the different offerings on YouTube, you'll find the usual range and differences. There's very little sparring posted (and what I've been able to find was usually not good). Most schools don't post much (if anything) from actual classes, so most is demonstration and teaching videos. That latter point goes to the request about lower ranking practitioners - I haven't seen much video of them.


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## vince1 (Oct 30, 2017)

the8th_light said:


> Hi vince1,
> 
> I'll try to help a little bit. The history you heard regarding the late Gozo Shioda (direct student of Aikido's founder Morihei Ueshiba) and the late Takashi Kushida (direct student of Shioda) is pretty much correct. The timing is off a little.
> 
> ...


Hi Devon, thank you for the insight. I do agree what Kushida taught was hard , the striking and pinning aspect etc. Master Carrother's has emphasized the striking aspect where as Ueshiba changed from striking to raising his hand/arm as a distraction and then following through with the technique. Kushida emphasized to Master Carrother's the strike, by making it count if at all possible to bring down your opponent .The reason why Ueshiba changed this was when around the time he found religion. Whether this is accurate or not, it did change.
Master Carrothers was able to demonstrate to me the way Ushiba would of done a particular technique without the striking. I prefer the striking ,pinning, kicking aspect and find it to be more effective. Seems to be more complete in my personal opinion and respect Kushida for sticking to what he felt to be more effective.
Thank you !


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## Anarax (Oct 30, 2017)

vince1 said:


> I was a student of Chow Gar Southern Mantis for about a year along with some Hapkido/Jiu Jitsu mixed in. Unfortunately I had to drive an hour both ways every Saturday morning for my weekly class. I decided to look in my own backyard and found a Master Carrothers that teaches traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu 5 minutes away from my home. The system is from Yoshinkai Aki Jiu Jitsu (Shioda). Master Carrothers learned from Koshida one of Shiodas main students over 25 years ago in Flint Michigan.
> 
> So far I have taken a few classes and have quickly learned that their are so many subtle finer points to perfect a technique. It is a complete martial art that takes many years to accomplish and feel very fortunate/humble to be learning this martial art.
> 
> Is anyone else familiar with traditional Aiki Jiu Jitsu ?



We have an Aiki Jiu Jitus instructor that comes to Kali. He's very skilled and knowledgeable in AJJ techniques. I've taken AJJ, Japanese Jujitsu and Aikido. From my experience Japanese Jujitsu and AJJ are more similar than AJJ and Aikido. AJJ feels a lot like JJJ just with more flow to it, a lot of the techniques are similar. This may be due to instructors, lineage or background. Overall, I learned a lot from AJJ


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