# Modern Arnis...a dead art?



## Bob Hubbard (May 17, 2007)

On another forum, the comment was made by a poster that he considered Modern Arnis a dead FMA art as of Remy's passing in 2001.

My opinion is that it is not dead, but very much alive as it continues on today, under the guidance of numerous individuals who were taught the art by Remy, who have carried on the work he began, and continued to research and extend and preserve it.

But, what are your thoughts?

Modern Arnis.  A live art, or a dead memory?


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## Carol (May 17, 2007)

Yeah its as dead as Kenpo.

Oh...wait...


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## MJS (May 17, 2007)

I would strongly have to disagree with whoever made that comment!  The art is in fact very much alive and there are many people, both here in the states and in the PI, that are keeping the art and the memory of The Prof. very much alive!   Perhaps that person feels that its dead because they themselves are letting it die, or maybe their own training has come to a stand still.  Ed Parker passed on and I wouldn't say that the art of Kenpo has died.  

Mike


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## Guro Harold (May 17, 2007)

Does anyone know have the link to the original post?

Thanks,

-Palusut


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## stickarts (May 17, 2007)

It's not dead here in Middletown, CT!  

The passing of the Professor marked the end of an era, however many many students are still working hard and spreading the art around the globe. Its actually amazing how many students that I trained with or heard of nearly 20 years ago that are still practicing and teaching modern arnis today. We are a stubborn bunch!


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## Dan Anderson (May 17, 2007)

In the words of Frank Zappa, _"Jazz is not dead.  It just smells funny."_

Sorry folks, that's the first thing that came to mind.

Modern Arnis _dead_ since the passing of Prof. Remy?  Au contraire.  Modern Arnis is flourishing.  The only thing is that there is no organization or lead figurehead for the art.  Before his passing there was no disputing who was the head and source of Modern Arnis - Remy Presas.  Now we have many of us who are leading our own groups.  We all have a different flavor of what we have been taught.

I liken Modern Arnis to Baguazhang historically.  The founder of baguazhang, Donghaichuan, taught established martial artists.  He adapted his teaching to the capabilities of the student and according to his background.  Cheng Ting Hua was a suiai jiao wrestler berfore training with Dong.  His bagua is laced with close quarters combat and many throws.  Yin Fu was a northern Lohan Shaolin expert.  His bagua is quick and longer ranged.  They learned the same set of principles from the same teacher.  Each school trains the same principles yet has its own flavor.

The students who have gone on with Modern Arnis have varying backgrounds.  Their Modern Arnis is influenced by what they previously trained in and what they have trained in since then.  That is the natural order of things.

Since going to the Philippines to the 1st Remy Presas Memorial Training Camp last year, I have seen for myself that there is no _"pure Remy Presas Modern Arnis"_ on the face of the planet.  None.  Modern Arnis was always an evolving art when Remy Presas was alive and will continue to evolve under his surviving students.

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Tames D (May 18, 2007)

I'm not a Modern Arnis Stylist but it seems to me to be alive an well.


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## Tarot (May 18, 2007)

Considering that's the art I study under two instructors, one of them a Datu named by Remy.  Ah, I'm gonna go with no, it's not dead.


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## brianhunter (May 18, 2007)

It is interesting to see the same attitude taken with Remy Presas' passing that was taken with Ed Parker's passing.

The thing that people never seem to grasp is it is not specifically how the founder of the art performs or changes....it is ultimately how YOU perform the art or change.


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2007)

Dan Anderson said:


> In the words of Frank Zappa, _"Jazz is not dead.  It just smells funny."_
> 
> Sorry folks, that's the first thing that came to mind.
> 
> ...




Dan,

So before my Balintawak training I had only Modern Arnis Training. As my Local instructor and senior also had only Modern Arnis training when I started.  

How would that effect us? 

I know that the Balintawak has effected me, but I still try to be able to say this is Balintawak and this is Modern Arnis. (* Sometimes it is the same for both though *). 



Everyone,

As to Modern Arnis being Dead. It is in once sense. The Founder is no longer with us and he can no longer lead or guide us. Yet, it is still alive in the students who are teaching and have thier own organizations. 

To me it could be discussed in a philosophical point of view, but in most cases to me it seems the people who make this comment does not have the rank or skill set to be a leader of their own, so they cannot lead and continue, so they try to bring everyone else down. It is the mind set of "If I cannot win then no one can win." The issues with this mind set are great.  I mean like it is a competition or it is all about them. When it should be about the memory and honor of the late GM Remy Presas and continuing to teach his system. (* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added.  *)

Peace


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## Andrew Green (May 18, 2007)

Well, I like being a argumentative little ****, so I'll say yes 

There are two ways in which a art can be dead.  

1) No one practices it anymore.

2) It stops evolving.

Now #1 is obviously not true.  

#2 however, and granted I really don't know a lot about Modern Arnis, is true for a lot of styles.  Perhaps not for everyone, but for many of the practitioners of it.

For a lot of people I imagine Modern Arnis is about "What did Remy do/teach?", not, "How do I get better at whacking people with a stick?"

Once it becomes a state of holding onto and perserving the teachings of one person, who is no longer teaching, an art is in a sense dead.  Now for some practitioners I imagine this is not the case, and they do evolve.  But then the question becomes "How much can it evolve before it is no longer Modern Arnis?"


> (* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added.  *)



To what end?  5 generations of students later should each document what he, and everyone up the chain has changed?  Not to mention how messy the chain will get if each studies under 2-3 different instructors along the way...


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## Rich Parsons (May 18, 2007)

Andrew Green said:


> Well, I like being a argumentative little ****, so I'll say yes
> 
> There are two ways in which a art can be dead.
> 
> ...




Well I would not expect too many changes. A drop of this drill a preference to this technique or what have you. Or someone who adds in a new Blade drill and the explanation. And yes I think it should be documented, to give proper respect to the those who have made the innovations, versus the arguments that occur about no this si the exact way the Founder taught the system because it is the way my instructor taught me. When it could be their instructor changed somethings just to improve a teaching aspect or to avoid confusion or to cover a new threat of type of weapon or a situation that was not as imporatant before but it is more important now. 

Now I understand this is my feelings on this and my comments. Do I actually expect everyone to do this? Nope. Just speaking / typing an opinion here.


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## Brian Johns (May 18, 2007)

I would agree with most of the posters here in that Modern Arnis is most definitely not dead; it's still alive in those who learned from Professor and are learning from the higher ranking students and from each other. It's still alive in the sense that there are a number of groups propagating this art and hosting seminars and camps. There are those who are studying the roots of Modern Arnis (eg Balintawak and other arts) in order to enhance their understanding of this art. Others are cross training with other Modern Arnis folks to learn other subtleties of the art. There are different paths and very often it comes down to the individual preferences. I've seen folks who are into different aspects of Modern Arnis and others are just not. Nothing wrong with that. But one thing for sure, Modern Arnis is definitely not dead.

Take care,
Brian Johns

PS. I echo Palusut's question regarding the original post making this statement. I'd like to see that post and the context in which it was written.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 18, 2007)

http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910


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## arnisador (May 18, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910



Sheesh.


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## Dan Anderson (May 18, 2007)

Rich Parsons said:


> Dan,
> 
> So before my Balintawak training I had only Modern Arnis Training. As my Local instructor and senior also had only Modern Arnis training when I started.
> 
> ...


Hey Rich,

I certainly know how it's affected me.  My Modern Arnis looks a bit different than what RP originally taught me.  My balintawak training, as little of it I have done, has affected me greatly.  My karate background was eclectic enough to keep me from becoming stylized in the first place so that helped my FMA learning.  MA 80 is becoming more and more different than what Prof. Remy taught me in the beginning and evolving into "what Dan does."  

Anyway, pure Modern Arnis?  To paraphrase Ed Parker, _"When pure stick meets pure face, then you have pure Modern Arnis." _ Over and out.

Yours,
Dan


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## Dan Anderson (May 18, 2007)

I went over and read the last couple of days worth and as I said to Tim just today, _"Bummer of a birthmark, Ralph."_  (reference to the Far Side cartoon)

Yours,
Dan Anderson


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## Guro Harold (May 18, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910


Sheesh, sorry that I asked.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 18, 2007)

I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.

Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.

Remy kept evolving his art, and as he moved ahead, he often left some people behind. They kept working where he had been, but failed to keep up with him.  Some stayed there. Those are the ones studying the 'dead' arnis.

Others, went in their own direction, made it 'theirs', and grew a branch off the main tree.

In the mean time, Remy kept adding new rings to the tree, dropping seeds here and there like a Filipino Johnny Appleseed, and even though the Master Gardener is gone, the orchard he planted continues to grow, and bear fruit.  Like any fruit, it will vary from tree to tree, some a little sour, some a little sweet, but at it's core, always Presas Arnis.

So, I don't see it dead, just continuing on where Remy left off.


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## Guro Harold (May 19, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.
> 
> Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 19, 2007)

I think this is the passage that Bob is referring to all the way at the bottom.

Modern Arnis is a dead system in my opinion since 
Professor Presas' passing.


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## Carol (May 19, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I think this is the passage that Bob is referring to all the way at the bottom.
> 
> Modern Arnis is a dead system in my opinion since
> Professor Presas' passing.



Ayup. That be it.


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## Cebu West (May 19, 2007)

posted by Palusut

.





> Sheesh, sorry that I asked.


 
I know what you mean. Lots of nasty people there filled with hate and jealousy. They're not Modern Arnis anymore and I think the MA community is much better off without them. 

Sal


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## arnisador (May 19, 2007)

Palusut said:


> Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.



All posts there are about Mr. Hartman in one way or another. It's sad.


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## Brian Johns (May 19, 2007)

Wow, we now know the context in which that "Modern Arnis is dead" statement was written. Jiminy crickets.

Brian Johns


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## Hand Sword (May 19, 2007)

For me....The parent has died. However, the offspring exists. It is a style now, it has grown to young adulthood. People will always be able to study modern arnis, no matter what amount of content it has. Those who learned it, can't all of the sudden forget all of their experiences with it and him. The only way the system will die is if all of the practitioners of it give up training in it, and take up another style. Never again can any thought be given to Mr. Presas and his style, and all references of it and him would have to disappear. Bottom line, Not going to happen! So the art where it is might not evolve, and it stays stuck as a young adult, or teenager. Sounds good to me!-LOL! I do think, as a person does, Mr. Presas' progeny will grow and find it's own way in the M.A. world.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 19, 2007)

Palusut said:


> Ok, I'm lost but the link above is about Mr Hartman's promotion.


It was made in passing in a discussion of Tim's promotions which is a main focal point there in most conversations.


It inspired me to open the topic here though. Rest of my last post here was basically, "How can it be dead, when Remy spread it so far and wide?"


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## Guro Harold (May 19, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It was made in passing in a discussion of Tim's promotions which is a main focal point there in most conversations.
> 
> 
> It inspired me to open the topic here though. Rest of my last post here was basically, "How can it be dead, when Remy spread it so far and wide?"


 
Let's be realisitic for a moment. There is no Modern Arnis player who is totally like Professor Remy A. Presas in skill, style, and charisma. If you place any Modern Arnis player against the Professor as a standard, they will come up short.

But the path of a martial artist is not about becoming exact replica of the grandmaster, it's ultimately about expressing yourself to the ultimate degree.

Tim Hartman, Dan Anderson, and Dieter are actually doing a great job of not trying to be "Remy clones" but are making their unique mark.

I am not a member of WMAA, nor am I associated with Mr Hartman in any way but just recalling history:

- He was personally promoted by GM Remy A. Presas
- He was internally promoted by his own organization (which means he has one)
- He was promoted by GM Ernesto Presas

It can be easy to question motives of the parties involved in the promotions, which could be a sign of powerless.  Reason being, when you don't have the power to affect change, the only avenue that you have left is to grip and complain, which changes nothing.

So ok, sometime you have to get to a point of moving on because it is an individual choice to involve oneself with Tim Hartman, WMAA, Modern Arnis, and now I guess, GM Ernesto Presas.

The most important issue is that in what way are you personally continuing the legacy of GM Remy A. Presas and his beloved Modern Arnis. It can be in the big ways, like hosting/teaching seminars, producing videos, or bringing over instructors from the Philippines or in small ways like learning and teaching Modern Arnis and continuing to recognize GM Remy A. Presas.

Therefore the question isn't whether or not Modern Arnis is a dead art, but whether or not we are wasting our time beating a dead horse?

Best regards,

Guro Harold Evans


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2007)

Dan Anderson said:


> Hey Rich,
> 
> I certainly know how it's affected me. My Modern Arnis looks a bit different than what RP originally taught me. My balintawak training, as little of it I have done, has affected me greatly. My karate background was eclectic enough to keep me from becoming stylized in the first place so that helped my FMA learning. MA 80 is becoming more and more different than what Prof. Remy taught me in the beginning and evolving into "what Dan does."
> 
> ...



Dan,

 I understand how it has effected me today. I was just curious about those who only trained in FMA's or in particular Modern Arnis from an instructor who only learned Modern Arnis. But that would be me and a few others. Not a lot of data points to worry about or reference. 

Thank you


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## Dan Anderson (May 19, 2007)

Here is another way to look at it: Modern Arnis is as dead as Aikido.

Aikido was founded by Morihei Ueshiba. O-sensei passed away. There are two lineages, so to speak. There is a vertical (familial) lineage.
Morihei Ueshiba to
Kisshomaru Ueshiba to
Moriteru Ueshiba

There is also a horizontal lineage (to name a few):
Gozo Shioda
Koichi Tohei
Kenji Tomiki

Modern Arnis has the vertical lineage:
Remy Presas to
Remy Presas Jr.

The horizontal lineage would roughly be this:
Cristino Vasquez (9th dan under Remy) et al, Dan (MA 80), Tim (WMAA), Randi & Co. (IMAF, Inc.), Jeff (other IMAF), IMAFP group, Dieter (DAV), Shishir Inocalla, Kelly (WMAC), everyone else out there. 

This has happened with Shotokan karate, Ed Parker's Kenpo Karate, Aikido, baguazhang, taijiquan, and darn near every other martial art out there. It is the natural order of things.

In the overall scheme of things Tim's promotion is a drop of water in the ocean of martial arts activity.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

PS - I'm sure I'lll piss off whoever I left off the list but I'm only half way through my morning coffee so my apologies. DA


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## Rich Parsons (May 19, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> http://lists.topica.com/lists/escrima_arnis/read/message.html?mid=1721013644&sort=d&start=6910




I originally posted the following:



Rich Parsons said:


> To me it could be discussed in a philosophical point of view, but in most cases to me it seems the people who make this comment does not have the rank or skill set to be a leader of their own, so they cannot lead and continue, so they try to bring everyone else down. It is the mind set of "If I cannot win then no one can win." The issues with this mind set are great. I mean like it is a competition or it is all about them. When it should be about the memory and honor of the late GM Remy Presas and continuing to teach his system. (* I know people will add or drop. I understand this. It is nature. I just would like to see people state what they know they have dropped or added. *)
> 
> Peace




I had no idea where the post came from. I am not a member at the other site nor do I wish to be. 

I have a difference of opinions with them and it not based around their favorite subject it based around how they treated me in person. 

So I am not going to continue with this anymore, for I see nothing productive I can add. 

Be at peace.


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## Bob Hubbard (May 19, 2007)

Rich, you've that right.  I didn't start this to bring their issues over here, but thought it a fair comment worth discussion. I've heard it from others too.



I think Dan put it well.  Remy's impact on the art will lessen as time goes by, but the art itself will continue on. There are easily dozens of excellent players out there who are taking what Remy gave them, making it their own, and taking it further. One thing I heard about Remy was that he kept hoping for the day when his students "got it" to the point where he saw them as his heirs to the art. I think he'd be pleased with where things are going.


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## Carol (May 19, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Rich, you've that right.  I didn't start this to bring their issues over here, but thought it a fair comment worth discussion. I've heard it from others too.
> 
> 
> 
> I think Dan put it well.  Remy's impact on the art will lessen as time goes by, but the art itself will continue on. There are easily dozens of excellent players out there who are taking what Remy gave them, making it their own, and taking it further. One thing I heard about Remy was that he kept hoping for the day when his students "got it" to the point where he saw them as his heirs to the art. I think he'd be pleased with where things are going.



I've never met the Professor, only people that have trained with them.  It seems to me that Professor Presas had a profound impact on many people's lives.  Filipino people have a wonderful sense of family that isn't always found in US culture.  I think many people felt a tremendous sense of loss when he passed away....perhaps some felt it so much so that they lost their enthusiasm to follow the art further, I don't know.


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## John Zagari (May 20, 2007)

I think its interesting that most Modern Arnis guys that trained with GM Remy have not moved accross to IPMAF and GM Ernesto. Woudl have felt it would have been a natural progression.

It was actually fantastic to see GM Tim at this years IPMAF camp and I hope in future more and more of GM Remy's students get involved with GM Ernesto's ongoing work and progression of Modern Arnis/ Kombatan Arnis.


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## arnisador (May 20, 2007)

John Zagari said:


> I think its interesting that most Modern Arnis guys that trained with GM Remy have not moved accross to IPMAF and GM Ernesto. Woudl have felt it would have been a natural progression.



Part of it is loyalty to one's instructor and familiarity with one's art (and part of it is politics ). But it's not so easy finding Kombatan instruction here...Remy Presas' instructors are easy to find in the U.S., but Ernesto Presas' instructors are more scarce. Still, I'm a student of Tim Hartman and he invites Kombatan instructors to teach at the WMAA camps. Presas Arnis is Presas Arnis to a certain extent, though there are differences too!


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## John Zagari (May 20, 2007)

Yeah its interesting .. Can't help but feel that it would be very exciting if all the presas arnis practitioners world wide joined under the one umbrella with the remaining two brothers as the figure heads.


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## arnisador (May 20, 2007)

We don't know so much about Roberto Presas here...I know he has his own version of the FMA, Hinigaran Arnis de Mano. I'd like to know more about what he does!


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## Seahawk Guy (May 21, 2007)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd heard the comment a few times before then though, over the last few years. The basic premise of course being that without Remy at the helm, the ship's done for.
> 
> Now, there are arts that are 'dead'. There are even those who will study a dead variant of Modern Arnis...always has been, always will be.
> 
> ...


 
Great post. I couldn't agree more. Modern Arnis will continue to thrive and grow as long as there are people out there that love to teach and learn this wonderful style. The part in your post where you mentioned how others "went in their own direction, and made it theirs" I think is the spirit of how Remy would teach Modern Arnis. Modern Arnis a dead art? Hardly!


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## The Game (Jun 11, 2007)

Anyone who thinks the art is dead isn't running on all wheels. There are over 200 schools in the US alone teaching it.


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## arnisador (Jun 12, 2007)

The Game said:


> Anyone who thinks the art is dead isn't running on all wheels. There are over 200 schools in the US alone teaching it.



Many of them are evolving it in one way or another. That's almost surely for the best--I've come to believe that more and more every year since 2001--but unlike some styles, I wonder if it'll be recognizable in a hundred years.

Of course, most styles that are still recognizable after that time are arts like iaido that are preserving some very old system rather than keeping it current.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 3, 2007)

I dont think its dead at all. But I want to know about where the "workshops" are for this because out of  the sticks its my favorite.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 3, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> I dont think its dead at all. But I want to know about where the "workshops" are for this because out of the sticks its my favorite.



What area are you in or travel in and we can most likely find you local instructors from teh various organizations out there.


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## arnisador (Jul 3, 2007)

Karatedrifter7 said:


> I dont think its dead at all. But I want to know about where the "workshops" are for this because out of  the sticks its my favorite.



Some are listed here.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 3, 2007)

New Mexico, the Southwest, but I'm willing to travel for workshops.
Meanwhile I practice with Arsenio Advinculla on video.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Jul 4, 2007)

Okay thanks, the Philly one looks good.  In answer to the first question, since there's people out there teaching Italian 17th century fencing,-- no Arnis is not a dead art. Perspective...


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## Charleston Combat (Sep 23, 2007)

It most certaintly is not dead!  Look to GrandMaster Remy's students and see how this art is flourishing! Brad


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## buldog (Oct 11, 2007)

IMHO the true measure of a teacher is expressed by the quality of their students.  If there is no clearcut inheritor of the style yet it doesn't mean that someone will eventually emerge in the years to come.  After all you don't transition from student to master overnight.  Perhaps there are one or more people out there that will achieve the necessary understanding to attain that level or even take it to newer heights(they may have already, i'm not real familiar with the people involved).  I have been considering taking some Arnis classes in the near future and the fact that the founder has passed will in no way affect my decision.  After all if a living founder was a requirement for a style's relevance there wouldn't be many "relevant" arts to be found at all.  Change is a part of life and evolution of certain styles is inevitable and as such should not be feared.  By all means venerate those that have gone before but always strive to exceed them as you do.   Nothing satisfies a teacher more than when your student truly understands and the training truly becomes a part of them(my experience is in massage not MA but the principals are the same).
Scott


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## tellner (Oct 11, 2007)

Ye gawds Bob, was there really a need to open that particular #10 can of annelids? The people who aren't fans will say "It's dead, and the sooner it gets buried the better." The fans will say "It's not dead as long as the believers carry on the true flam." Almost everyone else will say "Eh?" and go back to what they were doing. 

If it turns into mindless worship of Remy Amador Presas and a statement that His Wisdom will endure the ages, therefore any change would detract from the essential perfection of His Vision then yes, the style is as dead as Confucius. If it becomes the basis for good martial artists' development it will still be alive. And as long as that happens it will continue to change until some time down the road where it changes so much that it is no longer Modern Arnis. Then it will be mentioned as an influence on other newer styles. Eventually it will disappear into the past.


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