# Why does your do bok look like that???



## SahBumNimRush (Jan 26, 2010)

What does your do bok look like and why is it significant?  What color is it and why?  what patches and why?  what trim/stripes and why?


As for me,

The Moo Duk Kwan do bok is white, and I have heard several explainations for the color.  I have heard that white in Korea is similar to the color black in the U.S.  We wear black to funerals to honor the dead, as do the Koreans with white.  So we wear white to signify that we are prepared to die in our training.  Obviously, in today's society, no one is willing to die learning martial arts, but it is an interesting symbol.  I have also heard that is is merely a patriotic color, like red, white and blue is for us in the U.S.  I honestly do not know for certain why our do boks are white.

However, I do know why we trim our lapels.  It is a symbol of eliteness in the martial arts community, harkening back to the Hwa Rang.  The Hwa Rang (not today's Hwa Rang Do btw) trimmed their uniforms to set themselves apart from other soldiers.  My Kwan Jang Nim compared it to graduating from Anapolis or West Point vs. enlisting.  At BB we not only trim our lapels, we also trim our cuffs and the bottom hem of our do bok tops.  

We also wear a patch over our left breast with the Moo Duk Kwan symbol on it, as well as the American and South Korean flags on our arms.  There are other patches that are allowed, i.e. specific school patches, demo team, etc.. . But this is all that I wear.  

I notice that ITF, I believe it is has a black stripe down the sides of their uniforms, what does that symbolize?


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 26, 2010)

I would like to note that I am in no way insinuating that Moo Duk Kwan is superior by my Hwa Rang comment.  I was only stating the tradition behind the trimming of our do boks.


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## dancingalone (Jan 26, 2010)

In a way, it's neat to have those traditions.  

I'm afraid that the TKD school I attained my BB in years ago had no such significance attached to their uniforms.  Most everyone wore the white crossover gi.  Brown and black belts could mix and match black uniforms as they chose, and occasionally you saw some one with the Moo Duk Kwan jacket trimming in black, but it was strictly for fashion.  

At tournaments back then, pretty much anything was fair game.  Camoflauge and star-spangled banner unis were popular at my school.

Now that I have my own karate school, I pretty much will let the students wear anything as long as it is durable and safe to practice in.  Most students choose to wear a white or natural judo uniform as I do.


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## rlobrecht (Jan 26, 2010)

At our school, early belts wear a white V-neck dobok, usually with the school logo on the back (black and gold print.)

Black Belt Club members wear a red wrap around uniform with the school logo on the back (white print.)

1st Dan Black Belts can add black trim around the neck or bottom edge (but not both, I don't think) to either a white or red uniform.

2nd Dan Black Belts can wear a blue uniform.

Our Kyosanim wears a Blue uniform with black cuffs, a black stripe down the legs and arms.

Our Sabumnim wears a black uniform. 

Anyone can add Korean and US flag patches to their sleeves, but it's not required.  There are some other patches (special awards, demo team, etc.) that some of the Black Belts have.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 26, 2010)

Thank you for your replies, and I would like to say that I do not believe there has to be a tradition behind it.  However, there is a meaning behind ours, so I was curious what if any is behind others outside my particular kwan.  

Look forward to seeing more input on the subject!


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## dortiz (Jan 26, 2010)

" by my Hwa Rang comment"

Trust me start studying about the "Flowering Youth" and you will see we did not take it as such ; )


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 26, 2010)

dortiz said:


> " by my Hwa Rang comment"
> 
> Trust me start studying about the "Flowering Youth" and you will see we did not take it as such ; )


 

Haha! I've done enough studying about the students of the flowering youth that I've realized what an "interesting" past they have.  While the king's intentions were good, his methods were jaded, and as were the two maidens'.. . Something about suckering young boys with cute poontang for war just doesn't sound right to me.. . 

But I guess they weren't the only ones to do that


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## Stac3y (Jan 27, 2010)

I do American Karate (not TKD, but influnced by it, for sure.) I just had to respond to this because a parent asked me a few days ago what the "significance" of the black crossover gi is. For us, it has no traditional significance; it's a practical matter. As one of the other instructors says, "The kid can dump a whole Fanta on himself in the car on the way to class, and we don't have to care, or even notice." The black gis don't show stains, so they look neater and last longer, and don't require bleaching to stay decent.

Our brown belts (who are pretty much indentured servants until they rank up to black) wear red crossover gis so they are easy to spot and yell at. Black belts can wear what they want, as long as it's not too ridiculous.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 27, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> I do American Karate (not TKD, but influnced by it, for sure.) I just had to respond to this because a parent asked me a few days ago what the "significance" of the black crossover gi is. For us, it has no traditional significance; it's a practical matter. As one of the other instructors says, "The kid can dump a whole Fanta on himself in the car on the way to class, and we don't have to care, or even notice." The black gis don't show stains, so they look neater and last longer, and don't require bleaching to stay decent.
> 
> Our brown belts (who are pretty much indentured servants until they rank up to black) wear red crossover gis so they are easy to spot and yell at. Black belts can wear what they want, as long as it's not too ridiculous.


 

Thanks for the response.  I never thought about the black uniforms from a practicality stand point.  But now I wanna wanna, wanna FANTA!  **does his little dance**


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## Carol (Jan 27, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> Thanks for the response.  I never thought about the black uniforms from a practicality stand point.



Many men don't...if ya know what I mean.


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## Stac3y (Jan 27, 2010)

Black is also slimming.


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## Humble Student (Jan 28, 2010)

Mine is all black


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## dbell (Jan 28, 2010)

Students wear an all white Judo style Gi, Black Belt Club (hate that name, but...  (It is a group that have stated that they are there till they reach at least 3rd Dan, pay a little (not much) more, and get a few hours a week more training on their own)) wear black Gi pants, white Judo Gi top.  No patches, or other things on the Gi (I MAY add a small patch with the school name in Japanese in a black with a black circle around it on the right breast, but not sure).  White Gi top is Judo as we do a lot of throws, black pants so I know who is who (as if I wouldn't, right?) and so that others know the intent of those students as well.


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## sfs982000 (Jan 28, 2010)

All beginning students in my school wear traditional white gi's, once they move up in rank to around brown or red belt and if they enroll into the Leadership program then they wear red trim along the lapel of the gi top. Then I believe that depending on the level of certification they have they red/black trim.  Fully certified instructors and all 5th degrees and above wear black trim around the lapel and have a black stripe running down the leg of the bottoms.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2010)

Mudanja in our hapkido program wear a white crossover dobok with black diamond pattern stitching. Yudanja wear a black version of the same dobok with white diamond pattern stitching.  I do not know of any specific significance to the colors.  

Our taekwondo program is similar: white vee neck doboks for mudanja and black vee neck doboks for the yudanja.  The only difference is that a white dobok with a black vee neck collar is optional for yudanja.  

Patches are optional: Korean flag on the left sleeve, US flag on the right, and the WTF logo on the left front or the Korean flag on the left front and the US flag on the right front.

Our kumdo program uses the indigo keikogi and hakama (same as kendo) with yudanja having the option to wear white.

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 28, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Mudanja in our hapkido program wear a white crossover dobok with black diamond pattern stitching. Yudanja wear a black version of the same dobok with white diamond pattern stitching. I do not know of any specific significance to the colors.
> 
> Our taekwondo program is similar: white vee neck doboks for mudanja and black vee neck doboks for the yudanja. The only difference is that a white dobok with a black vee neck collar is optional for yudanja.
> 
> ...


 

I have often wondered about the significance of the diamond stitching on hapkido doboks.  Does the diamond stitching re-inforce the dobok, creating a higher durability for the throws associated with Hapkido?  Or is there some other reason for the diamond stitching?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2010)

I started a thread on that very subject in Hapkido: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82176

I know that the diamond pattern was a Jidokwan invention.  Some of the posters indicated that judogis have a diamond shaped quilting and that when they were older, that pattern showed from dirt and wear. I do not know that there is any officially stated reason.  Aside from looking cool.

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 28, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I started a thread on that very subject in Hapkido: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=82176
> 
> I know that the diamond pattern was a Jidokwan invention. Some of the posters indicated that judogis have a diamond shaped quilting and that when they were older, that pattern showed from dirt and wear. I do not know that there is any officially stated reason. Aside from looking cool.
> 
> Daniel


 

This is the reason for my OP.  I have a suspicion that most of the traditional uniforms have some symbolic or practical meaning (or both).  Just as the traditional symbols of various arts have meaning, if all practicioners of a particular style wear a specific uniform with specific markings, it would stand to reason that there is a meaning behind it.  I doubt the pioneers/founders of these styles were thinking in terms of fashion back then.  

The OP includes the reason the Moo Duk Kwan has a specific dobok with the trims' symbolic meaning.  Although today, there are many non-traditional uniforms being utilized in otherwise traditional schools, I am curious as to the meanings behind the original uniforms' symbolism.  

The Hapkido/Jidokwan uniform is a prime example.  It is quite unique, and I would think it would have some meaning beyond aesthetics.  But I honestly don't know for certain, and I was hoping to see what, if any, explanations the knowledgable people here at MT could provide.  

So far, I'm hearing alot of aesthetic reasons, and some used as a ranking system, like belts.. .  While these are honest answers, I was hoping someone from a more traditional standpoint could shed some light on the subject.

Thank you to everyone that has put in their .02 on the matter, and I hope to continue this discussion!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2010)

As far as taekwondo doboks, the ITF dobok and the Vee neck are intended to resemble the Korean hanbok.  The black trim on the color for yudanja is also inspired by the different colored collar that some hanboks had/have.  No hanbok pictures that I have ever seen were white, however, and the thin belt used in taekwondo is a direct lifting from Shotokan Karate, which of course lifted it from Judo.

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 28, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> As far as taekwondo doboks, the ITF dobok and the Vee neck are intended to resemble the Korean hanbok. The black trim on the color for yudanja is also inspired by the different colored collar that some hanboks had/have. No hanbok pictures that I have ever seen were white, however, and the thin belt used in taekwondo is a direct lifting from Shotokan Karate, which of course lifted it from Judo.
> 
> Daniel


 

Do you know what if any significance the black stripe down the pants of the ITF doboks have?


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 28, 2010)

Not being ITF, I cannot say for sure, but my gut answer is that it looks cool.

Daniel


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 28, 2010)

Being an ITF school, we wear ITF doboks at my instructor's school. The uniform itself is white, as Gen. Choi writes in his book, "to symbolize the traditional colour of the Korean costume." Someone earlier in the thread said they had never seen a white dobok, which is exactly the opposite of my experience. I had only seen white ones until I had been training in TKD for several year. Go figure!

As for the black piping on the uniforms of yudanja, it symbolizes the royal family and the members of aristocratic houses in the Koguryo, Beakje and Silla dynasties. I, II and III dans have black piping on the bottom of their dobok jackets (as opposed to Moo Duk Kwan members whose trim goes all the way up and around the neck). IV dan and higher get black piping down the sides of the arms and legs as an indication of rank. 

Previously, circa 1970-1982 or so, the ITF would identify International Instructors with piping down the sides of their legs. According to the edition of the "Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do" that I have (1993) makes no mention of the piping being reserved to International Instructors (although I know people who argue that it still only applies to such). 

On the back of the dobok is a the Taekwon-Do "tree," a symbol composed of the English and Korean words for Taekwon-Do. Across the top and in a semi-circle is the English for "Taekwon-Do" while vertically underneath is the Korean hangul for "Taekwon-Do." The words taken together symbolize an evergreen tree, which always remains youthful.

Pax,

Chris


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 28, 2010)

Chris this is exactly the kind of symbolism I was hoping to hear about, thank you for the education!


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## dortiz (Jan 29, 2010)

I am now wearing plain white uniforms. TKD and HKD. No Patches, no words, no symbols old kings, Monks etc. 
When I see the old pics its tough guys in plain unforms sweating it out. All these things came after the organizations grew. I dont want to piss off too many folks but whatever the story its really part of ego building and taking away from the real role of training. 
I train! The rest of that stuff I am done with.

The one funny thing was at the Instructors course how the Kukkiown folks made sure to point out that the stripes, stars, stuff on the belts were all not part of what should be worn. 

Dave O.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 29, 2010)

chrispillertkd said:


> Being an ITF school, we wear ITF doboks at my instructor's school. The uniform itself is white, as Gen. Choi writes in his book, "to symbolize the traditional colour of the Korean costume." *Someone earlier in the thread said they had never seen a white dobok*, which is exactly the opposite of my experience. I had only seen white ones until I had been training in TKD for several year. Go figure!


That was me, but I did not say *do*bok.  I said *han*bok (traditional Korean garments).  I have seen mostly white doboks.  Pictures of hanboks that I have seen have been much more colorful.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jan 29, 2010)

Depends on the school I guess.

http://www.taekwondo-ameris.com/Photo Galleries/2009/Oct Black Belt Testing/index.htm

I no longer expect to see white uniforms at any given school.  It's probably still the most popular color by my guess, but you can't beat the utility of a black uniform.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 29, 2010)

dortiz said:


> I am now wearing plain white uniforms. TKD and HKD. No Patches, no words, no symbols old kings, Monks etc.
> When I see the old pics its tough guys in plain unforms sweating it out. All these things came after the organizations grew. I dont want to piss off too many folks but whatever the story its really part of ego building and taking away from the real role of training.
> I train! The rest of that stuff I am done with.
> 
> ...


My favorite dobok is a white vee neck with an American flag at the base of the collar in the center of the chest.  I don't know the brand; it goes back to the eighties.  I only know that the flag at the center had reminded me of the Best of the Best movie, and that had been the deciding factor in its purchase.

My other favorite is an old Adidas with a black vee neck.  The Adidas has the flags on the sleeves and the WTF patch on the left front.  It is otherwise plain.  And comfy!!

After those comes my Hapkido black diamonds, mainly because it is comfortable.

Daniel


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## Drac (Jan 29, 2010)

SahBumNimRush said:


> I have often wondered about the significance of the diamond stitching on hapkido doboks. Does the diamond stitching re-inforce the dobok, creating a higher durability for the throws associated with Hapkido? Or is there some other reason for the diamond stitching?


 
An excellent question...


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## dancingalone (Jan 29, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> My favorite dobok is a white vee neck with an American flag at the base of the collar in the center of the chest.  I don't know the brand; it goes back to the eighties.  I only know that the flag at the center had reminded me of the Best of the Best movie, and that had been the deciding factor in its purchase.



Asian World of Martial Arts sells those if you ever need to buy another:  http://www.awma.com/index.cfm/action/productdetail/product_id/7010.htm

Back in the eighties, I rather fancied those star-spangled banner cross over gi tops.  What was I thinking?!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jan 29, 2010)

I want a vee neck that looks like Evel Knievel's jump suit with a star spangled vee neck and a star spangled belt.  Cape for tests only.

Daniel


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 29, 2010)

dortiz said:


> I am now wearing plain white uniforms. TKD and HKD. No Patches, no words, no symbols old kings, Monks etc.
> When I see the old pics its tough guys in plain unforms sweating it out. All these things came after the organizations grew. I dont want to piss off too many folks but whatever the story its really part of ego building and taking away from the real role of training.
> I train! The rest of that stuff I am done with.
> 
> ...


 

I'm not disillusioned and think that it is important to have these specialized doboks, but *if* you do have them.. . You should atleast know why you have it, IMHO.  If there was originally a purpose or symbolism behind it, it shouldn't be lost in the past, to only hear the explaination today, "cuz it looks cool."  

IMHO, it is the same with the names and symbols of arts/styles.

It does not affect your training what you wear.  But from a historical, philosophical, and practical standpoint, to me, it is an interesting topic of discussion.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 30, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That was me, but I did not say *do*bok. I said *han*bok (traditional Korean garments).  I have seen mostly white doboks. Pictures of hanboks that I have seen have been much more colorful.
> 
> Daniel


 
Oops! I apparently had a typo in my response. I knew you meant hanbok even though I wrote dobok. 

I did not see any pictures of colored hanbok until being in Taekwon-Do for several years. I had seen many pictures of people in white hanbok, however (in fact, in the first pictures I saw of people practicing Taekkyon they were wearing plain white hanbok with those cool straw sandles). From what little I know it used to be that colored hanbok were mostly worn by members of the nobility (or at least upper class) while commoners wore mostly white. The modern phenomenon of everyone wearing multi-colored hanbok seems to be a modern development. 

Pax,

Chris


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## dortiz (Jan 30, 2010)

"If there was originally a purpose or symbolism behind it, it shouldn't be lost in the past"

All good as long as everyone knows the past we are talking about is less than 50 years old and that there are huge parts just made up.


On a different note altogether, great pics of you and students. Some great practitioners.


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## SahBumNimRush (Jan 31, 2010)

dortiz said:


> "If there was originally a purpose or symbolism behind it, it shouldn't be lost in the past"
> 
> All good as long as everyone knows the past we are talking about is less than 50 years old and that there are huge parts just made up.
> 
> ...


 

Absolutely, even the original kwans were only formed in 1945.  There can be no tradition before its inception.  Granted it is possible that many of these traditions were drawn from previous cultural and martial traditions present prior to the formation of the original kwans.  For example, Hwang Kee drew from historical aspects of the Hwa Rang soldiers for his doboks.  There is no inherent worth in this, other than it sets the doboks apart from the other kwans.  But because he had a reason behind it, I believe it is atleast somewhat important to pass this bit of information on.  



As for martial arts beyond korean ma's, i.e. modern Karate-Do, their "traditions" may go further back in history.  But I have very little knowledge about Okinawan and Japanese arts (although it's growing thanks to all of you here at MT!).

My intent of the OP was to ask for input on the symbolism of these subtle differences in uniforms.  Again, IMHO, these are purely aesthetic differences, but *if *there is a deeper meaning beyond aesthetics, it* may *provide some insight to the philosophy of the developers of these styles.

Thanks for the comment on the pics


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## CDKJudoka (Feb 12, 2010)

Like most dojangs, mudanja wear white v-necks with poomse colours on the collar. The yudandja either wear a white v-neck with black collars or white crossovers with black running the length of the collar and lapel, similar to the TSD yundanja doboks. SBN would rather us all wear white v-necks, but some of us older guys, KJN included, prefer the crossover. I just took mine to the next level, when I got a white double-weave judogi and had the sewn onto the lapel and collar.


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## Manny (Feb 19, 2010)

In my former dojang (Ji Do Kwan) we use the V-neck dobok with the collar in the collor of the belt, for example a blue belt has his Vneck collar blue, a red belt has his Vneck collar red,etc,etc. The dobok is white with the jidokwan patch over the heart (left side). Also in my former dojang the belts has stripes for the dans, for example a BB second dan has two stripes and so on.

In my actual dojang (Hwarang Tae Kwon Do) we use the wihite Vneck dobok with the Vneck the collor of the belt and we were our patch over the heart. When some one reaches the 3rd Dan level can use the traditional cross gi with the lapel on black and the cuffs in black, don't recall if the bottoms of the jacket has black too. However every body uses embroided black belts but with cero stripes no matter you are 5th or 7h or 2nd degree black belt.

Manny


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