# Hostage situations



## Carol (Dec 17, 2008)

One of my customers called me when I was at work.  

"Carol, this is M*** from ****** Communications, we got a subscriber that's in trouble."  

OK...I fix things (in the phone system) that are broken.  "What's the trouble?"   I'm expecting an answer like "He can't dial out"  or "She can't get her voice mail" or "They can't dial internationally".    When my customers tell me that one subscriber is having issues...those are the kinds of problems I typically find. Not this time though.



"Its a hostage situation."


Oh.  You mean....real trouble.  Not broken-phone kind of trouble.  Yikes.  "Um...gawd, how can I help?"

"We need a warm line to the XXXXX police.  It has to work."   

My customer wants to configure his subscriber's phone line so it automatically dials a particular policeman just by taking the phone off the hook.   I take the particulars, and run a test in my lab.  I then help the customer get it set up on their equipment, and I tell them how they can take the configuration down at the appropriate time.   My job ends there.  

I don't know how the story ended.  


So...for discussion....


What would you do in a hostage situation?


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## terryl965 (Dec 17, 2008)

First off what type os stituation are we talking about, kidnepping, bank robberiy. Too many variables.


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## MJS (Dec 17, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> One of my customers called me when I was at work.
> 
> "Carol, this is M*** from ****** Communications, we got a subscriber that's in trouble."
> 
> ...


 
Never been in one, and hopefully it'll stay that way.  Its kinda hard to armchair QB what we would do, but for the sake of the thread, here goes:

I would say alot would depend on what the location is.  Is it a building with multiple entrance/exit doors?  How many bad guys are there?  What type of weapon(s) do they have?  How many victims are in the building?

If you decided to act, try to overtake the hostage takers, etc., that a plan should be well thought out.  Perhaps if possible, try to call 911 on a cell phone.  Many people have this on speed dial on their cell phones, so hit that button and keep the line open.  The dispatcher/officer who answers the phone should be able to hear enough in the background to get an idea as to whats going on.  Of course, if its possible to give a location without making it too obvious, thats an idea as well.  On a side note, I say the above with pretty good confidence, seeing that I've taken many calls, and have heard, quite clear, a conversation between people, whos cell has accidentally dialed 911.  

If possible, perhaps trying to start a conversation with the hostage taker(s) may take their mind off of what they may be planning.  That may buy you the right moment to act.

As far as attempting anything, as I said, this needs to be well planned, and the people involved need to fully commit.  You can't have someone, last minute, decide to chicken out.  The victims on that plane on 9-11 who over took the hijackers co-ordinated their efforts, (at least from what I've read) and it seemed to have worked.  

Of course, the best plan of action just may be to wait it out and pray that nothing bad happens.  Hopefully a professional negotiator will arrive and be able to defuse the situation.


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## BrandonLucas (Dec 17, 2008)

First off, that seems pretty scary...you did pretty well under the pressure, it seems.  It would be cool to know the outcome, but I know how that is sometimes.

As far as what to do in a hostage situation, like stated before, it would really depend on the situation.  I would love to say that I would spring into action and save the day, but the honest truth is that springing into action could very well be the worst thing to do for everyone involved.

I would need to be able to read the situation very carefully before deciding on what to do.  But, until the point where I've read the situation, I'm going to attempt to make myself and small as possible to the hostage taker(s).  If they tell me to do something, I'm going to do it, unless I've found an altertinative way out.

Now, I will say this:  I'm not trained in the psychology of these people, so I don't think it would benefit me to try to talk them out of the situation.  The smallest or slightest thing that I could say could possibly push them over the edge, so I think the best thing to do is to either comply or act...for me, there wouldn't be a gray area on that aspect.

The thing is, though, it's hard to say, because I don't know the particulars on the situation, and everything in that instance is situational.

Now, for example, if I was on one of the 911 flights, knowing what was put out to the rest of the public, I would have fought back with a vengance...anything to make sure as many lives could be saved as possible...but, this scenerio only works for that one instance.


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## hkfuie (Dec 17, 2008)

"...so I think the best thing to do is to either comply or act...for me, there wouldn't be a gray area on that aspect."

Funny how that echos your signature, Brandon.  

Carol, 

I wish I had something of value to add, but I guess I'd just have to follow my gut.  I know that many times in the past I have become very calm in very stressful situations.  I hope that will always be the case.

Great story.  What would you do?


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 17, 2008)

Carol,

I'd just tell the hostage taker I'm a Gambino and "see, you hava better let me go, ya see?"

On the serious side, it would depend on many factors like the number of hostage takers, weapons, distances, times, over victims, etc...

Deaf


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## MA-Caver (Dec 17, 2008)

In the movie Speed they said "shoot the hostage, go for the good wound, take them out of the equation..." 

Ok seriously...
Really don't know... like it was said depending upon the situation, robbery, kidnapping, terrorist... varies.

But I'm gonna hush because I'm not a cop. That's law enforcement's territory and well, we civvies would just muck up the works.


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## Guardian (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm taking this to mean if we were part of the hostages on the inside, not looking in?

If that's the case, then as put here, allot of variables go into the scenario, still don't know to many MA/SDers that can take a bullet.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 20, 2008)

Carol Kaur said:


> One of my customers called me when I was at work.
> 
> "Carol, this is M*** from ****** Communications, we got a subscriber that's in trouble."
> 
> ...


 

Bravo Carol for reacting well to the situation and not letting the issue get to you. 

As to what I think about hostage, I have two experiences that are close, and I do not recommend them to anyone. 

The first a guy started to pull his gun from his loose fitting pants. I saw the profile already pointed at me as he was pulling it out. I could not move towards him. I grabbed his friend and used his friend as a body shield, while yelling at an employee to lock the door and call the police. This was a tense situation. I was scared, I mean really scared. The barrel of the gun looked to be about 2 to 3 inches wide. I know it was not, for after I stopped looking at it and continue to talk, and looked back it was back to normal. But, it was scary, and it screamed at me, "Wrong move and you are dead." After much discussion, he put the firearm back in hsi pocket and took his hand out. I let his friend go and they went to their vehicle and left. 

Other time was in an old theater foyer double doors. Outside doors then about 8 to 10 feet and other doors to help keep the cold out. A guy pulled a gun. There were lots of people in that area, he started waving it around. I raised my hands and started walking towards him, telling him it was ok that he was in charge and that what ever he wanted I would help. This gave everyone else a chance to run away. Lucky for me one of them called the police. Within minutes some were there. They were ouside they saw my hands up and I did not acknowledge them as to give their position away. I kept talking to the guy. He looked at me and said, "You really are crazy to be the last man in here talking to me." He then put the revolver into his pocket and walked out. As he was walking out the door, I called to him saying, "Good Luck in what ever you do. He turned back as walking out to say "thanks" Instinct I guess. The police took him from behind and secured his arm and then his fire arm. 


In both cases, I did not challenge them. In one I used a know associate with the bad guy as cover. I have my hand around his neck and was trying to keep him moving and hard to aim at my exposed areas, while his 'friend' who was my shield was screaming don't shoot. DON'T SHOOT. But I convinced him that he was in charge and that he was the winner. The second one I was the only viable target to get the women and other non combatives out of the area. 

Like I said, I do not recommend this for anyone. A wrong word, or wrong move or a bad day I could not be here today. 

I have no real long hostage situations to discuss.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 20, 2008)

Rich, it sounds as if you did an excellent job of keeping your cool and thinking on your feet in both situations.  Thanks for sharing those stories.


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 20, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> Rich, it sounds as if you did an excellent job of keeping your cool and thinking on your feet in both situations. Thanks for sharing those stories.


 
KT,

They happened almost 20 years ago, but I remember them like it was only a few hours ago. They made an impact on my life. I am glad you appreciated or liked the stories. But like I said I do not wish others to try anything based upon my comments. I got lucky. 


Thanks


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## KenpoTex (Dec 20, 2008)

Oh, understood...sometimes luck or divine providence (or whatever you choose to believe or call it) is the only thing that really makes a difference.​ 
That said, I think your response in the first situation was great. You basically altered the dynamics of the situation by taking the bad guy's partner hostage. On a side note, I believe it's Jim Keating who advocates that as a tactic when dealing with multiple adversaries.​ 
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In general, it's tough to say "this is how one should behave in this situation" as there are a huge number of variables.


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## Big Don (Dec 21, 2008)

aside from peeing my pants, I don't know what I'd do


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 22, 2008)

WAAAAYYYY too many variables to begin to answer that question.


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## Brian King (Dec 23, 2008)

Hostage situation thoughts

I am not an expert and your mileage will perhaps vary. I have been fortunate to have attended some training (the best so far has been that taught by Konstantin Komarov during a Systema seminar). I will share some of my thoughts on the subject but again I am no expert. I will not share all that was taught as this is a public forum.

We can all say that it hardly ever happens or that it wont happen to us and God willing that is true. I think that we owe it to ourselves to give the situation some study in spite of the rarity and this is especially true for those who are action professionals. 

Whether some kind of domestic violence, or a robbery gone bad, some kind of home invasion scenario, a kidnapping by robbers or revolutionaries or being locked up in a prison. There are some ideas that can perhaps help you to survive. Here are a few for discussion if you wish in no particular order. Many of the ideas are the same whether it is some kind of hostage situation or some kind of natural disaster. 

At the beginning of the event you have to catch your breathing and calm yourself. You will need to slow your heartbeat (breathing will help you to do this) to get it back to as normal as possible. By remaining calm and allowing yourself to think and to be aware of what is happening you increase your chances of survival tremendously and combat the effects of fear or prolonged terror. Many people end up going into shock and a form of denial and their body can shut down. Many people are found burned to death hiding in a closet or in a corner being unable to call out or even reach out to rescuers who were even arms reach away from them. Some people shut down as their mind goes back to when they felt safest, they will end up in a fetal position unresponsive and staring while not seeing. This is not usually productive for survival.

One good way of gaining strength in any situation is to find somebody in a weaker condition that you are in and make it your mission to save them. When you have somebody else to care for it gives you a reason to live, to drive on no matter what. It can give you a stubbornness to survive no matter what. By having someone under your care it forces you to calm and to think and helps you to fight the selfishness and blindness fear and rage that mobs can incite with-in us. 

By remaining calm you are often less likely to draw attention to yourself and are often seen as less of a threat or of a problem that must be dealt with by those holding hostages while at the same time you can sometimes draw attention and cooperation from others that are in the same situation as you are in.

It is always easier to escape or disrupt the hostage takers plans at the beginning of the event during the initial chaos. As the event prolongs the chances to escape become slimmer and slimmer. 

If you are being held hostage by a group you will have to use all of your senses to figure out what is going on. Is it a robbery or some other evil? Who is holding you and what is it they are expecting to achieve. You will need to see how the group if you are being held by one interacts with each other and with you and with any other hostages. Listen for clues as to were you are being held, listen for patterns of sound, look and try to notice all while not being noticed looking (this is more difficult than it sounds and makes for some interesting practice drills). You will also have to use that sense that tells you somebody is dangerous. If you get that vibe listen to it. _I was watching a program on TV called locked up abroad This episode was about a group of tourists that were on safari at various camps in the Congo that were all rounded up by a group (about 130) of men who were part of the Hutu death squads of the 1990s in Rwanda. The person telling of his ordeals during this event (he was a safari guide for a group of the tourists) spoke about one of the armed men coming up the trail. The trail was very steep. For some reason this armed man appearing and coming up the trail frightened him. He just wanted the man to go away. As the man neared he (the safari guide) reached out his hand to the armed man and helped to pull him up the trail so that the armed man would go on by his small group on his way up the trail. As the man continued up the trail the guide looked at his hand and it was covered in blood. Later he came across the bodies of three or four women hacked to death._ 

If you are being held hostage it helps to learn to listen to what your instincts and intuition tell you about the hostage takers. Some will be friendlier than others. Some might be able to be approached more safely than others will be. Much like a child knows what to ask their father for and what to ask their mother for. Like a child, if you need water or medicine or to use the bathroom or whatever you will want to approach the kinder person rather than the one that you get the bad vibe from. If you must approach one it is usually best to approach with a calm voice and demeanor. Avoid ALL contact with those that give you the bad vibe including even eye contact. Stay small and gray when they are anywhere around. When the friendlier ones are around let them do small favors for you. Ask them for a little water and thank them if they bring it. Treat them as humans worthy of respect and let your self be seen as human. Talk about your family and children missed or sick wife/husband. Talk about your crummy boss at work. It is ok to exaggerate a bit but the best lies often have some truth in them. If you have no children adopt some cousins children or your brothers family and make them your own. Let them see your weaknesses and let them see your strengths. The more you look like a human perhaps the more difficult it will be for them to do you violence or at the minimum they may be willing to make your captivity more bearable in some way. 

This one is often difficult for men or those with loved ones also in the situation. If you are chosen to leave to deliver a message for instance, or for whatever reason do not argue with the captors. Leave and take what information you can to the authorities.

If you see a chance to escape you may be putting yourself and the others in jeopardy if you act on it. I am Not saying do not or to take it. It is a decision that you will have to make on that instant. For myself if I am a hostage and another sees a chance to save themselves I do not think that I would begrudge them the opportunity and would probably take the chance myself. 

If there is a rescue event you must be prepared to act to save those around you and your own life. Depending on the country and the politics of the situation you might be in near as much danger from the rescuers as the hostage takers. If you feel the need to join the fight understand that you will have both the hostage takers and the rescuers shooting at you. 

The following are not absolutes but are choices that may have to be made. If you are near a wall try to put a little distance between it and you. Shock waves from explosives can travel thru the wall and injure and kill you as if there was no wall there at all. Stay low and do not make sudden moves unless the hostage takers are firing directly at you or you are near the explosives that many hostage takers set during a situation. Keep your mouth open and try to protect your ears and eyes and head. If there are bodies around wiggle under them for both camouflage and cover. 
If you are being held by one individual most of the above also apply. Stay calm, stay aware, stay focused, make yourself human and help others weaker than yourself. The decision to fight back depends on the situation but one hostage taker is much easier to deal with than a group. 

Use your intuition as to ask for water or food if you think you can with out angering the hostage taker. Offer to share it with the hostage taker for full stomachs produces drowsiness. The very act of chewing makes it difficult to stay angry. If you feel you must fight back, pick your time well. The authorities will not know who the good guy is and who is the bad guy and may fire on you by mistake. Depending on the situation something small like lifting a blind or separating the curtains a bit might serve your cause well. 

If you do escape try to relate as much as you can to the authorities. How many attackers there are, how many of them are women, are they armed and what are they armed with, how old do they appear to be, are the professional or amateurs, did they plant explosives, what did the bombs look like, did the hostage takers appear to be on any narcotics, did you see them taking any narcotics, what kind of narcotics were they taking, are they calm, are they excited, is one in charge, which one is in charge, how many hostages are there, in which rooms or area are the hostage takers and which have the hostages, do the hostage takers have a pattern i.e. is one awake while others sleep, do they roam or stand stations, these observations and many more things should be available for the authorities if you should escape. 

If you are wounded or injured choose to live. Survive and thrive for your family or to spite those that injured you. No matter how sever the injuries live. Take one more breath, then another. It is also important to remember that the fight is not over just cause you have been rescued or are receiving medical care. I have heard stories of soldiers that have heroically crawled miles with their guts dragging behind them only to die when they reached the aid stations. Giving up the fight and giving their life to others to save. Living and dieing is often an internal battle that you must fight. Faith and family can give you the strength to keep the fight but no matter you will have to find something inside of yourself to keep breathing no matter what. Do some research and talk to as many POWs of all nations that you can. They will have many tricks and methods that helped to save their lives and you may be able to make use of some of them in some future situation. Not to mention that talking about their experiences helps them to heal and helps you see both the strength and the evil that we as humans are capable of. 

Finally if you should live while others die be prepared for the guilt and the mixed emotions that are bound to come from the situation. Seek professionals to help you understand what happened to you and what you can expect to happen to you during the aftermath, legally and mentally and physically. It is OK to second guess as long as you realize what is done is done. Second guessing helps prepare us for the future but should not lead to guilt or remorse for the past.

Oh well, a few thoughts from lessons learned but hopefully never having to put into practice for real.

Warmest regards
Brian King


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## sgtmac_46 (Dec 23, 2008)

I refuse to be taken hostage if I can possibly avoid it by fighting.....that is a decision everyone must make for themselves before hand. 

If I feign compliance it is only to gain tactical advantage to kill my attacker......I am willing to act meek and submission until the moment of maximum advantage.....I will feign disability.....I will feign deafness......I will feign anything that will cause my attacker to believe he has complete advantage and control......I will cry, I will beg, I will proclaim my desire to cooperate with any request.

If my attackers goal is to take me hostage, and not to kill me, he has made a fatal mistake.  He should have killed me when he had the chance.....and he will PAY for his mistake IN FULL! 

In short......I will do my best to send my would-be hostagetaker(s) to HELL still holding the belief that they have complete control of the situation.


Here's an interesting story I came across about being taken hostage......it comes from a biography of Richard Owen.....
[/quote]


> *"Owen, once an aspiring boxer, beat an inmate to death with a shovel,       telling the warden he finished the man off by jumping up and down on his       head. That happened after two inmates tied Owens's hands with barbed wire,       stuck a knife in his back and tried to use him to escape.*
> 
> *Owen warned them right off he was no shield, that he'd tell guards       to shoot regardless. He kicked and struggled until one inmate was shot by       a guard, then Owen dealt with the second man himself, turning on his       attacker until he had nearly severed the inmate's head."  http://www.okgenweb.org/~okmurray/Murray/stories/executioner.htm *




Now, the violence described is beyond most folks acceptance......but it goes to show how aggression will often save you where caution and moderation will not.


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