# In motion, there is often motion that is overlooked.........



## Goldendragon7 (Oct 26, 2003)

hmmmmmm, how about......

In techniques, there are techniques overlooked?

Example, Spiraling Twig.. the part after the twirl where you have the hand cranked, and are bending the opponent down just before the kick and upward back knuckle.......

What if, we take this move and apply it for a front direct shoulder push, as opposed to a rear bearhug!  Grab the hand and twist it only it is now on a Vertical Plane as opposed to a  horizontal one?  Sam Ting?

Thoughts?
:asian:


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## jfarnsworth (Oct 28, 2003)

It looks like the standard Kotogeish I learned many years ago. It works for a lapel grab, a straight punch however you have to trap the hand differently. How about the same move in Reversing Circles? Or maybe the ext. to Crossing Talon?


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## Rainman (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *hmmmmmm, how about......
> 
> In techniques, there are techniques overlooked?
> ...



Which plane would be the vertical place?artyon:


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> Which plane would be the vertical place?artyon:
> *



12 to 6


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## Rainman (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *12 to 6
> 
> *



Should've been plane not place!  #2

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> Should've been plane not place!  #2  :asian: *



Oh Oh Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... in that case #3
 

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 28, 2003)

Motion is motion


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> Motion is motion
> *



But there are several types!

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2003)

I can name three or four. what do you mean by several?


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Orig. posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> I can name three or four. what do you mean by several?
> *



Ok, cool, what are your four?

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2003)

Well physicaly there is only pushing, pulling, hammering and there equal equal and opposite reverses. (htw if you will) but I suppose you could add (the mental aspect of),  constipated motion, hindered motion or the physical out of muscle grouping sequence motion (which causes you actual injury). I think you are refering to the myriad of these combinations that can occur and that just happen to be taught as tactics in the techniques. Also, I suppose we could include esoteric concepts such as the Iron palm and Dimak of which I know next to nothing about.


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 29, 2003)

> _Orig posted by Touch'O'Death _*
> I think you are refering to the myriad .......
> *



NOoooooo, I remember Mr. Parker telling me (when I asked the same question) that there was - MOTION, Pro-MOTION, E-MOTION & Com-MOTION!  :rofl:  I was in comic mode.

:asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2003)

Oh


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 29, 2003)

Don't forget (ani)motion. "Like a butterfly , a wild butterfly..."


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## Seig (Oct 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *NOoooooo, I remember Mr. Parker telling me (when I asked the same question) that there was - MOTION, Pro-MOTION, E-MOTION & Com-MOTION!  :rofl:  I was in comic mode.
> 
> :asian: *


Damn,
I thought you were talking to normal, opposite and reverse....back to studying.....


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## cdhall (Oct 30, 2003)

Speaking of motion overlooked, this is a Great example I think
http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week9/TipOfTheWeekMedW9.html

These Tips are incredible. Other than the "hidden application" he does Attacking Mace exactly the way I was taught.  I guess he's pretty good.


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## Rainman (Nov 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Oh Oh Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh.... in that case #3
> 
> 
> :asian: *



Uh oh, someones been talking to MR. Durgan!  What direction?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Nov 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _*
> Uh oh, someones been talking to MR. Durgan!  What direction? :asian:
> *



Not lately, he stays in his cave waaaaaaaayyyyy too much...LOL


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## Rainman (Nov 4, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *Not lately, he stays in his cave waaaaaaaayyyyy too much...LOL
> 
> *



True dhat!   Except I think it is his workshop!  Which direction?

:asian:


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## Goldendragon7 (Nov 4, 2003)

12 - 6


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## sumdumguy (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Speaking of motion overlooked, this is a Great example I think
> http://www.ltatum.com/movies/Week9/TipOfTheWeekMedW9.html
> 
> These Tips are incredible. Other than the "hidden application" he does Attacking Mace exactly the way I was taught.  I guess he's pretty good.  *



Oh please!!!!!! your killing me! all he 's doing is alternating maces in the middle of the technique. Yea I bet nobody ever thought of the stuff he's talking about? Ya think? And this is globalization or contribution to the system, at tenth degree...... Sorry, just a little miffed about that one....... :asian: :asian:


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## sumdumguy (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *hmmmmmm, how about......
> 
> In techniques, there are techniques overlooked?
> ...



I don't think overlooked is a strong enough word? I think maybe ignored or something else. And maybe the better question is why are these things overlooked or ignored. See now your giving away things that are better kept by those who understand and take the time to understand and look at "all" facets of the techniques. I have posted replies with this same message and nobody got it.  Good thread Mr. C.

:asian: :asian:


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sumdumguy _
> *Oh please!!!!!! your killing me! all he 's doing is alternating maces in the middle of the technique. Yea I bet nobody ever thought of the stuff he's talking about? Ya think? And this is globalization or contribution to the system, at tenth degree...... Sorry, just a little miffed about that one....... :asian: :asian: *[/QUOTEIts a simple karate lesson, its not billed as the widom of the ages. Chill


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## MisterMike (Nov 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sumdumguy _
> *I don't think overlooked is a strong enough word? I think maybe ignored or something else. And maybe the better question is why are these things overlooked or ignored. See now your giving away things that are better kept by those who understand and take the time to understand and look at "all" facets of the techniques. I have posted replies with this same message and nobody got it.  Good thread Mr. C.
> 
> :asian: :asian: *



Maybe working with that twisting motion with the opponent vertical is already somewhere else in the system, for instance Capturing the Rod?

The techniques all seem to have their own story. One you've learned them all I guess we're obliged to mix and match, as long as it makes sense.


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## kenpo12 (Nov 20, 2003)

> Oh please!!!!!! your killing me! all he 's doing is alternating maces in the middle of the technique. Yea I bet nobody ever thought of the stuff he's talking about? Ya think? And this is globalization or contribution to the system, at tenth degree...... Sorry, just a little miffed about that one.......



And your contribution is????  These tips are for people of all skill levels, guess you can't make all of the people happy all of the time.


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## Bill Lear (Nov 20, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Touch'O'Death *
> 
> _Its a simple karate lesson, its not billed as the widom of the ages. Chill  _



Thank you. You're 100% right! It is a simple tip, nothing more.


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## sumdumguy (Nov 20, 2003)

My apologies you guys. I had a serious mood going. As for the smart @!#$ that asked what am I doing for kenpo.... Come and visit and I will show you.
Your right, about the video, it really is nothing, and I over reacted to it initially. I just get real tired of holyier then though crap on hear all the time. I will vanish again for a while and leave you rats to chew at each other and argue and discuss nothing......... 
As your hero would say
"Have a great Kenpo Day"


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 21, 2003)

In response to your earlier post, knowledge should be free to anyone who can find it. In response to this one--glad to see that you haven't stooped to being petty or unkind for no good reason.


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## Bill Lear (Nov 21, 2003)

> *Originally posted by sumdumguy *
> 
> _My apologies you guys. I had a serious mood going._



Mood swings are okay, everyone wakes up on the wrong side of the bed every once in a while.



> *Originally posted by sumdumguy *
> 
> _As for the smart @!#$ that asked what am I doing for kenpo.... Come and visit and I will show you.
> _



Is that some kind of an implied threat? Come on. You posted negatively about his (and my) instructor, he responded defensively and you're gunna bash him for that after apologizing for your actions?

Please, if you are going to apologize... at least mean it.



> *Originally posted by sumdumguy *
> 
> _Your right, about the video, it really is nothing, and I over reacted to it initially._



I think that you're continuing to overreact.



> *Originally posted by sumdumguy *
> 
> _I just get real tired of holyier then though crap on hear all the time._



though = thou

hear = here

Tired? Probably.



> *Originally posted by sumdumguy *
> 
> _I will vanish again for a while and leave you rats to chew at each other and argue and discuss nothing........._



We're all rats now?

Discussing nothing?

Mr. sumdumguy,

I'm starting to think that your apology wasn't an apology at all... If I had posted in the manner that you just did... I would have been banned from this forum. (Something to think about).

I don't know who you are, and I don't know why your panties are in a knot. I think, however, that you really need to chill out, relax, and not be so damn negative. Besides that I would like to know what you contributions to the art of Kenpo are. If that involves an *** kicking... so be it.


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## Bill Lear (Nov 21, 2003)

Oh... and one more thing...

*HAVE A GREAT KENPO DAY!*


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## Michael Billings (Nov 21, 2003)

Not a criticism of you, or your response to the previous posts, but more of an informational note.  _(Gee, it is sorta sad that I FEEL, like I have to put a disclaimer here so nobody takes it as an attack.)_  Anyhow:

Just so you know who sumdumguy is, he consistantly taught at our UKS camps for many years, before leaving and rejoining his original instructor, Mr. Raimey(sp?).  He was a 5th Black when I saw him last, now, and a good one.

He did excellent work exploring, systematically catagorizing,  and teaching Contact Manipulations, Immobilizations, and Releases for all the base techniques.  He methodically researched and applied levers (of all classes) as found within the system ... that is part of what I admire about him, he did not go "outside" of Kenpo to do this.  

I am sure I am scratching the surface of what he has continued to learn about Kenpo, and contributed to the Art over the intervening years since I saw him last, (I think he left the UKS in '99?)  We are at opposite ends of the country, so to speak, or I am sure we would have more contact.

I did not see a challenge at all with his remark.  I actually think ya'll would get along well, especially since his Kenpo Rocks.  He hurts you with every touch, whether a manipulation or control, or whether his is ripping with a the striking part of Kenpo.

Great fun would be had by all.

I don't know Rainman at all, but the communication is a little tougher for me also, with him.

No sarcasm intended here: 
*Have a Great Kenpo Weekend!*  

Respectfully,
-Michael


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## Michael Billings (Nov 21, 2003)

It is always a loss to the Board when they feel like they have to pull back and not put up with the B.S.  I include the loss of Clyde and sumdumguy.  

I personally think that when we cannot disagree as adults, when we get to name calling, or innuendo about the other person being unintelligent, stupid, or unwilling to learn, that judgment is sufficent to alienate and distance other posters, and just hurts your own credibility.  

IMHO we should not be trying to run off people who disagree, nor do we have to convince them we are right.  We have reached a pretty good place with ground fighting on this, so I know it is possible.  

 
-Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 21, 2003)

Good points, Michael. Personally, I skip over this whole "challenge," crap, since I don't want to end my days behind an airport somewhere, with six big guys wailing away on my precious body with garbage cans--I'm strictly a, "let's nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure," kind of guy. Personally, I recommend good manners--even if we get exasperated from time to time.

I realize that this is kinda the fifth-grader's "he started it!" response, but you know as well as I do, that some of those SumDumGuy posts were very far from neutral. He was writing exactly in the fashion he subsequently accused (with justice) others of writing...a little more so, in fact. Which is where the hooley minor started. But I know for a fact that it takes a fair amount to get Matt even mildly ticked...Billy's more like me, and sometimes forgets that manners maketh man.

Oh well. It's just writin'. Ain't sublimation fun?


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## Michael Billings (Nov 21, 2003)

That and bag work are what keep me sane ... of course, even that is a matter of opinion.  

I was not trying to point fingers at anyone, or I would have done so.  Rather when it gets to the question of a physical confrontation, or any approximation thereof, then I have to say something, whether as a Mod, or as just who I am.

in case you have not noticed, if anything  I  probably post less since I became a Mod.  I seldom post something that I would not have said anyway as a member.  I think that is why they asked me to Mod - I was already trying to encourage a dialogue v. an argument.  I firmly believe that new ideas and knowledge can come out of disagreement, so long as you are willing to open the door and consider ideas as presented, as being reflective of someone else's believe system, and not as a threat to your own.  We can do that while maintaining respect for each other's pespectives or beliefs.  

Agree to disagree is the short way of saying it.  

I do appreciate your efforts in the same fashion, generally.  But like all of us, including me, sometimes our passions get the best of us, and it starts a snowball effect.  I do look forward to meeting both you and Clyde someday in-person, as putting name with a face is not all that is important, but also having a feel for the other person's personality helps also.  

If you think Kenpo is bad you should see some of the Arnis threads, where just like here, members have quit, been suspended, or banned, and the threats were much more overt.

Respectfully,
Michael


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## rmcrobertson (Nov 21, 2003)

I pretty much agree. And as you know, I continue to be fascinated by the fantasy that in "other," arts--you know, the SPIRITUAL ones, or the HAPPY COMMUNITY ones and the GOOD FIGHTING ones--nobody quarrels, there are no petty little power squabbles. I mean, have you followed the asinine screaming that was going on in the Kajukenbo discussion? I know that you know about the good ol' days (well, last summer) of ARK and those guys quiffling over who was whose master...

I also love the notion that back when Mr. Parker was alive, you never saw these squabbles in kenpo. I love it, because nearly all the people who make these claims belong to some school that started when their founder got thrown out, or stomped out, or moved far, far away...

Anyway, thanks. Good points.


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## Bill Lear (Nov 21, 2003)

Mr. Billings,

Maybe I was a little out of line, but I didn't think Todd's post was cool at all. Neither was his "so called" apology.
:shrug: 

I know, I know... Chill out Billy! But that's my opinion, and I'm sticking with it.

I know, I know... I'm an angry, angry person with nothing to do but smash my keyboard and throw my mouse across my desktop from time to time... Oh well nobody's perfect.
 

Could this be the E-Motion part of Kenpo that is often overlooked?


Probably. 
:lol:


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## Michael Billings (Nov 21, 2003)

.. leads to Co-Motion.

It was not all about you at all Billy ... only if the show (shoe) fits should you wear it.

I just don't want anyone taking their marbles and going home, the way Clyde, Kirk, et. al. did.  But I hardly ever get exactly what I want...so I have had to learn how to say "What the frell".

Have a good weekend all.
-Michael


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## kenpo12 (Nov 21, 2003)

Wasn't trying to be a smart ***, didn't mean to piss ya off.  I know that there are many different ways to give back to the art you made a negative remark towards just one of the many ways Mr. Tatum is giving back.  That 2 minute video does not sum up everything Mr. Tatum has done and I just feel that you took a cheap shot.  It's great that you are well versed in American Kenpo and have no knowlege to be gained by Mr Tatums TOW's but not everyone is that blessed.  Thank you for the offer to show me what you're contributing.


Matt


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## Bill Lear (Nov 21, 2003)

> *Originally posted by Michael Billings *
> 
> *.. leads to Co-Motion.
> 
> ...



I've been one of those too. I swore I'd never be back, and then...

Ta Da! Here's Billy! :lol:

Can't we just all get along?


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## Rainman (Nov 22, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Not a criticism of you, or your response to the previous posts, but more of an informational note.  (Gee, it is sorta sad that I FEEL, like I have to put a disclaimer here so nobody takes it as an attack.)  Anyhow:
> 
> Just so you know who sumdumguy is, he consistantly taught at our UKS camps for many years, before leaving and rejoining his original instructor, Mr. Raimey(sp?).  He was a 5th Black when I saw him last, now, and a good one.
> ...



You chose to butt heads.  I gave you the same info I was given and the same resources I was given in the beginning.   All you really had to do was look at the diagram, state your observations, and let the dialogue begin.   Do you realize how many people decided not do the simple exercise?    Everyone who participated in the discussion.   I suppose it is just much easier to pick on grammer.    

AC Rainey was his teacher and no one in the uks ever promoted Mr. Durgan or was his teacher.   He had originally desired to share his Contact Manipulation and determined joining an open and accepting organization could further that goal.  Unfortunately they resented him being promoted by his own teacher which he never left.  The relationship with Mr. Rainey was clearly stated  upon joining the group.


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## sumdumguy (Nov 22, 2003)

Alright I am an !@#hole. I picked on Mr. Tatum and you are all correct those where comments I should have kept to myself. Acting on some un-natural whim I went over board and said it anyway, well guess what, I can't erase the post so there it is. For the guy who asked " what have I done for Kenpo" I apologize the backward apology. And by the way I have met Mr. Tatum and dummied for him at a seminar here in Washington. So I have a little ( I said a little) experience with him. As for the rest of the crap that followed my post, I have to say I am suprised! 
      You are correct about the information that he is giving being a help and insight to some people and for that I have to give him credit. I will withdraw from this forum for a while, mostly because I have to much work to do (in Kenpo) to spend so much time concerning myself with this. Happy Kenpoing to you all!!! 
Later     :asian: :asian:


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## WhiteTiger (Nov 23, 2003)

Do any of these threads get past the first page before bashing some other system, instructor, lineage?

At the risk of getting back on subject, nearly all of the individual motions within any technique can be started from any number of positions or starting points.  This is esspecially true for the Chin'na type grabs and joint locks.  The key is to recognize the fulcrum points used in each lock, and when they are vulnerable.  How many ways do we enter into a "Crossing Talon" type arm bar for instance.  This is the part of Kenpo which is most often left for the individual student to discover, althought some system begin to cover some of these points starting in 2nd Black.


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## pete (Nov 23, 2003)

> "... nearly all of the individual motions within any technique can be started from any number of positions or starting points. This is esspecially true for the Chin'na type grabs and joint locks"  - WhiteTiger



i just ran a workshop on this last wednesday night for all belt levels. for some it was a first introduction to the chinese root moves, and for others it was more a exploration of how the same root is used in several techniques, such as Gift, Locking Arm/Locked Wing,  Desparate Falcons, and Glancing Spear.   We locked and controlled from the fingers, wrist, elbow, and shoulder
and found each root to be found in several Kenpo techniques.  The main point from this was to use these techniques to neutralize the attack then gain control of the situation by having the attacker submit... which i've seen get "lost in the sauce" of many kenpo practitioner's desire to be "flashy fast".

i found it to be rewarding, and received much in the way of positive feedback on the approach from everyone taking part in the workshop.  additionally, i found that i benefited not only from running the workshop and working with the participants, but from the hours of preparation needed to pull it together for such varied group.

pete.


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## Brother John (Nov 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *Do any of these threads get past the first page before bashing some other system, instructor, lineage?
> 
> At the risk of getting back on subject......*


Seldom I'm afraid.
Thanks for "risking" it.


As a wise lady once said to me... "If it aint positive or lead to a positive result.... WHY DO IT?"

Your Brother
John


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