# screw the IRS, i'm not paying



## jarrod (Oct 10, 2008)

received a bill from the IRS today, evidently they think we owe them $1800.  i lost a lot of money last year on a failed business venture, filed my taxes with a CPA, & there is no ****ing way i'm giving them a cent.  if the federal government is tight on cash, they shouldn't have given 700 billion dollars away on a plan that isn't working.  they should have had an exit strategy for iraqi.  but they sure as hell shouldn't be shaking down working class citizens trying to get ahead.  if they think they are going to steal any more of my money then they already have, they have lost their ****ing minds.    

hey feds, if you are reading this, take note:  do not push us too far.  my name is jarrod fobes, i live in bonner springs, ks.  i am not paying this ********, & i will not be going to prison for it either.

jf


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 10, 2008)

2 words

Al Capone.

Note - I agree with you, but think about it...


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## jarrod (Oct 10, 2008)

i've thought about it.  honestly, i fully expect our accountant to be able to deal with it.  if that fails, i think the cost of imprisoning me would outweigh the $1800.  lastly, i am goddamn tired of the american people being pushed around & cheated by their own government.  i'm tired of feeling like a peasant. 

i don't agree with income taxes, but i pay them because that's the law of the land.  but i will not pay $1 more than i owe, not when they are borrowing money we don't have to give to banks, not when we are embroiled in an expensive war that we have no business in, not when we are being robbed at the gas pump.    

america is a great nation based soley on the strength of character of it's people, not because of the government.  when the people become complacent, helpless, & afraid, it's all over.

jf


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## MA-Caver (Oct 10, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i've thought about it.  honestly, i fully expect our accountant to be able to deal with it.  if that fails, i think the cost of imprisoning me would outweigh the $1800.  lastly, i am goddamn tired of the american people being pushed around & cheated by their own government.  i'm tired of feeling like a peasant.
> 
> i don't agree with income taxes, but i pay them because that's the law of the land.  but i will not pay $1 more than i owe, not when they are borrowing money we don't have to give to banks, not when we are embroiled in an expensive war that we have no business in, not when we are being robbed at the gas pump.
> 
> ...


Jarrod, I understand and appreciate your anger and like Bob I'm with you on it. 
But do keep your anger-language down a bit. ... even if it is justified. :asian:

My first thought after reading your post was... well you ARE a business owner... they should funnel some of that 700 Billion down your way too. But then remembered that you're just a small business owner pursuing the "American Dream" and thus don't count in the light of the vast corporate giants that imagine they're the ones that make this country what it is today. Actually they are... an increasing joke. 

I'd find your CPA and the two of you go talk to an Tax Attorney AND then go to the IRS office nearest you and talk with them. It's not going to be a stereotypical agent waiting with a pair of handcuffs in his desk drawer once he finds out you don't intend to pay kind of thing... when it comes to numbers things can get awfully screwy. There are lots of tax laws about... there's probably a loophole just right for you. 

Oh yeah, leave your weaponry at home, mmm'kay?


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## celtic_crippler (Oct 10, 2008)

jarrod said:


> i've thought about it. honestly, i fully expect our accountant to be able to deal with it. if that fails, i think the cost of imprisoning me would outweigh the $1800. lastly, i am goddamn tired of the american people being pushed around & cheated by their own government. i'm tired of feeling like a peasant.


 
You're not alone.



jarrod said:


> i don't agree with income taxes, but i pay them because that's the law of the land. but i will not pay $1 more than i owe, not when they are borrowing money we don't have to give to banks, not when we are embroiled in an expensive war that we have no business in, not when we are being robbed at the gas pump.


 
Again, you're not alone...more and more people are feeling like this. 



jarrod said:


> america is a great nation based soley on the strength of character of it's people, not because of the government. when the people become complacent, helpless, & afraid, it's all over.
> 
> jf


 
Agree...I'm just hoping today's circumstances are enough to knock the majority of folks out of their stupor so that they'll fire the sorry lot of them in November. 



MA-Caver said:


> Jarrod, I understand and appreciate your anger and like Bob I'm with you on it.
> But do keep your anger-language down a bit. ... even if it is justified. :asian:
> 
> My first thought after reading your post was... well you ARE a business owner... they should funnel some of that 700 Billion down your way too. But then remembered that you're just a small business owner pursuing the "American Dream" and thus don't count in the light of the vast corporate giants that imagine they're the ones that make this country what it is today. Actually they are... an increasing joke.
> ...


 
Yeah...if he was large enough to have a lobbyist working for him he'd get some of that bail-out money.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2008)

Be aware: they do have ways of seizing your assets if you refuse to pay this.

Get together with your CPA and hire a tax attorney if necessary and go over your books.  You also have a right to dispute this, so get your books in order and go discuss it with them and present your case.  

But if they decide they aren't convinced by your story, they can seize your assets whether you like it or not.  Best to deal with it cordially, before it reaches that level.


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## Archangel M (Oct 10, 2008)

Think about it. Murderers have gotten out of prison quicker than Tax evaders.


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## Brian King (Oct 10, 2008)

Hey Jarrod,
In the military we called it falling on your sword committing career suicide over compromising your principles and what you perceive as right. 

You will likely not got to jail as long as you file your tax returns (I am NO attorney tax or otherwise), if you do not file, well I think about 3,000 people did get jailed last year. Depending on who wins the upcoming election the IRS may return to their old ways pre Bushs kinder gentler IRS so the numbers may well change. 

That said Jarrod I have to commend you for sticking to your principles in the face of the worlds largest and most effective collections agency. Whether you do or do not go to jail will have no effect on the amount of money that you owe. Taxes are not bankrupt able, if you die the amount will have to come from your estate, they will never go away until they are paid in full. The IRS can file liens on your home; your businesses and even your personal property (Autos, furniture, collections such as coin or firearms) and can collect them at their convenience including empting out your bank accounts. Owing back taxes may and often does affect the ability to receive a clearance needed to work in many professional and governmental careers. The IRS can and will levy your wages forcing your employer to pay them first and if anything is left then you. The interest has started and the IRS not only compounds the interest but they are not subject to usury laws and can charge (I think) over 50%. Not only is the interest being charged but there will be penalties and fines charged for not paying on time and of course interest on the fines and penalties. 

Since the interest and penalties compound and are running from when the taxes should have been paid and will continue to increase until finally paid off in full the IRS is not in any hurry to collect and in fact do take their bloody time since time is money for them. Even if you were to send them the $1800.00 dollars that you owe do not be surprised to get another bill for the amount of interest and penalties that have accrued since the bill was sent and after you pay that one there may well be another. The good news is that each bill will be smaller than the last.

It takes a type of courage that I do not have to come to the conclusion that it would be better to flip off the IRS with the understanding that you will have to deal in mostly cash since your bank accounts may be seized, knowing that your employment may suffer and that you may have to find an employer willing to pay you in cash which is no easy thing. 

I myself have found it more useful to use good CPAs and recently Tax attorneys and then to pay what they and the IRS say is owed. The same for the many different State taxes owed. The taxing systems are just too complicated for me to fathom and my time is better served making money and enjoying life to spend even an extra moment worrying about taxes and the hundreds of different forms that all must be filled out and sent off to the many different agencies that are here to help us. The peace of mind found by being paid up and current cannot be overstated. The tax thing is just another joy of being an evil business owner and employer.

Good luck to you sir
Regards
Brian King


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2008)

Brian makes some EXCELLENT points with regards to the interest and penalties.  Often, if this situation lasts for a while, the penalties and interest will VASTLY outweigh the original debt owed.  You think your angry now, just wait until that $1800 debt balloons into a $18,000 debt, no exaggeration, I am not kidding you.

Deal with it NOW, and get it cleared away, even if you have to swallow your pride and pay up.  In the long run, your life will be much easier.


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## grydth (Oct 10, 2008)

jarrod said:


> received a bill from the IRS today, evidently they think we owe them $1800.  i lost a lot of money last year on a failed business venture, filed my taxes with a CPA, & there is no ****ing way i'm giving them a cent.  if the federal government is tight on cash, they shouldn't have given 700 billion dollars away on a plan that isn't working.  they should have had an exit strategy for iraqi.  but they sure as hell shouldn't be shaking down working class citizens trying to get ahead.  if they think they are going to steal any more of my money then they already have, they have lost their ****ing minds.
> 
> hey feds, if you are reading this, take note:  do not push us too far.  my name is jarrod fobes, i live in bonner springs, ks.  i am not paying this ********, & i will not be going to prison for it either.
> 
> jf



Don't consider this legal advice... think of it as shared life experience from an older martial artist.

I had this exact thing happen early this year. Fought and beat them, though it took months.

Leave the ranting private, as they can change your address from Bonner KS to  Leavenworth KS awfully quickly if they feel they are being threatened. Share nasty feelings with your spouse, not the Internet.

What you probably have is a review that proposes to change your taxes upwards.... These usually say why - most often there is something on your return (or not shown on your return) that tripped off a computer flag.  An IRS examiner makes a preliminary review and sends you something.... usually this tells you what you will need to clear this up. If IRS is mistaken, stop wasting your time here and get with your accountant to rush IRS the documents they need to support your position. 

If your accountant says, "Oops! IRS is right!".... its in your best interest to pay it asap to avoid sky high and ever increasing penalties. I once had a tax preparer who listed something on the wrong schedule - I met with an IRS examiner to show I wasn't hiding anything and the preparer who erred paid the small amount extra.

Now get outta here and go fix it. Hope you have a win like I had.


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## jarrod (Oct 11, 2008)

thanks all for the support & advice.  i have cooled off a bit & here is what i've arrived at:

the IRS can go **** themselves.

like i said, i'm confident my CPA will be able to handle it.  but i am angry at their audacity when the federal government has squandered so much money in recent years.  my siezable assets are pretty minimal as my business tanked.  i live in an apartment & own a 12yr old car, which is probably the most valuable thing i own.  i have enough in my account to just barely pay it, but it would wipe me out & prevent our scheduled move to denver where there are actually some decent employment opportunities for my wife & i.    

i suppose i should also clarify that i'm not threatening anybody, i'm not building bombs or anything.  i'm just not paying, & i'm not going to jail.

what really angers me is that i know they are doing the same thing to other people, hoping that they are just too intimidated to investigate or fight back.  what was the point of those stimulous checks if they're just going to take them back plus more later?  how can they take $700B they know we don't have, give it to those who have profited on the american people, & then finance it by taking more from the people who don't have it!?  why are we talking about rebuilding economies in georgia & iraq?

i don't want people thinking that i'm just pissed off because i got a B.S. bill from the IRS.  anyone who's read my posts prior to this knows i'm not too happy with the current state of affairs.   historically, the stability of a nation can be measured by the stability of the middle-class.  when the government creates lots of angry poor people with nothing to lose, problems follow.  brian mentioned "falling on your sword".  sounds good to me.  

jf


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## Big Don (Oct 11, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> 2 words
> 
> Al Capone.
> 
> Note - I agree with you, but think about it...


Don't forget Richard Hatch and Wesley Snipes...


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## Brian King (Oct 11, 2008)

Good for you Jarrod,
A person should be willing to stand up and fight even when they know that they will lose and that it will cost them and their family in the long run when they feel like fighting. I have to also admire your wife for standing beside you and your decision to not only make a battle of it but to make the stand and declare your not paying the bill whether or not the IRS is in the right. I have known a few that did commit career suicide over what they thought was important and I admired them even as I thought that they were making an extreme mistake with their reaction and decision usually based on emotions rather than logic and duty. My opinion is that falling on your sword should be a last resort as it is often the final action that one can take and once committed usually cannot be reversed or changed.

Hopefully you are correct in hoping that your CPA will be able to handle this and make it go away. Then your aggravation and LOL even this thread will have proved unnecessary except that the emotional ranting release sometimes makes a person feel better. The taxes for most companies Jarrod come out first and off the top, before salaries before rents before anything else. The owner gets paid last and only if there is any funds remaining. The IRS and the State agencies do not care if you make money or not, their bite comes first and it comes from the gross not the net, and it is ironic that you pay taxes on the total gross both for the Feds and the State on the same amount I.E. you gross $100,000.00 you pay the Feds their 25% off the top then you pay the state their 20% (of the $100,000.00) LOL fun stuff. It will soon be getting worse and more expensive especially if you have employees. But what the heck that is the price that we have to pay and that we deserve to pay as we are the government. 

Jarrod I hope that your CPA can indeed make it go away if the error is the IRSs or cover the expense if the error is theirs. My unsolicited advice to you if the CPA cannot make it go away is to have your CPA, yourself and the IRS agent handling your case meet and set up a payment schedule. You do not have to make the entire payment in its entirety and if you do not have the funds set aside to pay your taxes you may not be able to. If you set up a payment schedule you must make the payments. Your CPA should also let you know how much you need to pay to stay ahead of the penalties and interests which have already started to accrue. On a post above it was stated that your 1800.00 bill can quickly balloon into the tens of thousands and the amount owed will not be negotiable and that is not an over exaggeration just so that you know not only the size of your fight but the possible consequences that you and your family face. 

Anyway good luck and enjoy your fight
Brian


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## jarrod (Nov 25, 2008)

update:

our accountant sent them a letter basically saying "nuh-uh" & they went away.  it's yet another example of the IRS being a bully who thinks that they can intimidate you into giving them what they want.  thanks all for letting be blow off some steam.

jf


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## Frostbite (Nov 25, 2008)

For future reference, they more than likely wouldn't try to put you in jail for $1800.  I owed about $1200 last year from a 401k disbursement that I didn't realize wasn't taxed properly.  It eventually caught up to me (I wasn't avoiding it--just didn't realize it even existed) and the worst that happened is they made my employer take it out of my pay.  If you're self employed, they obviously can't do that as handily but they can still seize assets and freeze your bank accounts.  Better to work it out than get indignant about it.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Nov 25, 2008)

*Jarrod be prepared.*  I know of at least one person who is fighting a small amount and it went away for a bit and came back and* bit them hard.*  So stay on top of this and be prepared that you may have to pay in the future.

Brian gives really good advice above in that work through the system not against it.  In general those that work within the system can go forward and not be punished.  Those that do not eventually end up in serious plight.  Not wanting to go to jail or not wanting to pay does not mean that you will not.

Good luck!


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## Tez3 (Nov 25, 2008)

Jus a quick question, if you have an accountant who deals with your taxes why was there a problem? surely he should have sorted everything out for you in the first place? Are you sure it was the tax peoples mistake not his?


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2008)

Tez,
The US Tax Code is beyond byzantine.  Imagine reading James Joyce's *Ulysses* written on spaghetti noodles, swirled into a bowl, and chopped to 1 inch pieces.

Every year, around tax time, a news channel has a lot of fun calling the IRS, and asking their "experts" for guidance -- and getting wrong answers.  From the IRS.  The people who collect the taxes and enforce the laws can't even get it right!


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## zeeberex (Nov 25, 2008)

jarrod said:


> received a bill from the IRS today, evidently they think we owe them $1800.  i lost a lot of money last year on a failed business venture, filed my taxes with a CPA, & there is no ****ing way i'm giving them a cent.  if the federal government is tight on cash, they shouldn't have given 700 billion dollars away on a plan that isn't working.  they should have had an exit strategy for iraqi.  but they sure as hell shouldn't be shaking down working class citizens trying to get ahead.  if they think they are going to steal any more of my money then they already have, they have lost their ****ing minds.
> 
> hey feds, if you are reading this, take note:  do not push us too far.  my name is jarrod fobes, i live in bonner springs, ks.  i am not paying this ********, & i will not be going to prison for it either.
> 
> jf




Yes. Yes you will.....


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## Brian King (Nov 25, 2008)

*Brian R. VanCise wrote *



> Jarrod be prepared. I know of at least one person who is fighting a small amount and it went away for a bit and came back and bit them hard. So stay on top of this and be prepared that you may have to pay in the future.


 
+1 really good advice there Brian!

Jarrod,
It has only been a month and the IRS has already sent you notification of the balance owing ($0) for the tax year in question. That is great. It usually takes months and months all the while interest is compounding daily. They are not compelled to get things done in a speedy manner as they get paid more the longer it takes and if it ends up them owing you there is no interest due on that amount so they get the loan of your money how ever long it takes LOL. If it is just your CPA saying they went away make sure that he says it in writing and that you save that for the next several years if not longer. The CPA should have no problem putting it into writing if it is indeed gone and over. Remember that silence does not equate to going away.

Good luck 
Brian King


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 25, 2008)

jarrod said:


> received a bill from the IRS today, evidently they think we owe them $1800. i lost a lot of money last year on a failed business venture, filed my taxes with a CPA, & there is no ****ing way i'm giving them a cent. if the federal government is tight on cash, they shouldn't have given 700 billion dollars away on a plan that isn't working. they should have had an exit strategy for iraqi. but they sure as hell shouldn't be shaking down working class citizens trying to get ahead. if they think they are going to steal any more of my money then they already have, they have lost their ****ing minds.
> 
> hey feds, if you are reading this, take note: do not push us too far. my name is jarrod fobes, i live in bonner springs, ks. i am not paying this ********, & i will not be going to prison for it either.
> 
> jf


 
Enjoy your cell.....


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## Flying Crane (Nov 25, 2008)

Brian said:


> If it is just your CPA saying they went away make sure that he says it in writing and that you save that for the next several years if not longer. The CPA should have no problem putting it into writing if it is indeed gone and over.


 
I would accept nothing less that a written statement FROM THE IRS, stating that you do not owe these funds.  It doesn't matter what your CPA puts into writing.  If the IRS thinks otherwise, they can come after you, and good luck trying to hold your CPA responsible.

I cannot emphasize this enough: *GET IT IN WRITING FROM THE IRS*.  And keep that forever.


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## MBuzzy (Nov 25, 2008)

I'm with the masses here.  It is a great thing to take a stand for your principles, but you really need to be aware of what is at stake.  I am in the military and therefore work for the government machine.  I had a pay error that came back to me 3 years later.  Basically, they overpaid me when I first came in and 3 years later I got a bill.  Unfortunately, being in the military, I didn't even have the option to fight it.  Basically the bill said "You owe the Government $1200 that we incorrectly paid to you.  The balance will be taken out over the course of your next 2 paychecks."  No options, no notice, that was it.  I ended up in a 2 week fight to get it taken out over 6 months in stead of 1....since taking it out in one month would have meant that I couldn't pay rent!

It is easy to look at the government and see abuses and misuses and all of the other things that they have spent and wasted money on, including the bailout....but unfortunately, the machine doesn't care.  They will get their money if they want it.  One way or another, they will get their money and there is nothing that you can do to stop it.  You can fight and stand up for yourself....but I assure you, they'll get their money - either in cash or in time served (and even then, you often still have to pay).  It sucks and I dont' agree, but resistance is futile!

I strongly urge you to ENSURE that you have written confirmation _from the IRS_ saying that your balance is $0.  A month later and neatly closed is a little too good to be true....


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## Brian King (Nov 25, 2008)

*FC wrote:*



> I would accept nothing less that a written statement FROM THE IRS, stating that you do not owe these funds. It doesn't matter what your CPA puts into writing. If the IRS thinks otherwise, they can come after you, and good luck trying to hold your CPA responsible.
> 
> I cannot emphasize this enough: *GET IT IN WRITING FROM THE IRS*. And keep that forever.


 
I agree that he should get paperwork from the IRS and keep it filed. In this case Jarrod had an accountant say that they wrote a letter to the IRS stating Nuh uh and they went away. It has only been a month so I wonder if the IRS actually has done more than logged the letter into Jarrods file truth be told. I doubt that they have done more than acknowledged receiving the letter if even that. If the accountant is offering advice saying that they went away they need to put that in writing. If they are a CPA or professional accounting firm they can be held responsible and liable for errors and negligence. In most states they are even required to have insurance for that. If Jarrod finds himself in legal trouble due to their advice and even if they (CPA/Accountant) are no longer in business for what ever reason they may still be held liable for damages and losses, but only if Jarrod can prove that they were in error or negligent. If the accountant is a friend helping out or the relationship is non professional, well in life, you often get what you pay for. Yet even in that case if Jarrod can prove that he was not ignoring the IRS, that he was trying to resolve the issue it will go a long ways in future dealings with the authorities, in my opinion. 

For those saying jail and such. It is my understanding _(I am no lawyer tax or otherwise, get you legal advice from a qualified attorney face to face and in writing)_ that failing to file tax returns is criminal and can result in prison sentences. Failure to pay is civil and we no longer have debtors prisons. The will work with you to pay what you owe as long as you work with them. When you fail to work with them they will collect what is owed thru liens and seizures and garnishments without your cooperation.

Regards
Brian King


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## Big Don (Nov 25, 2008)

Say HI to that nekkid guy from Survivor.


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## jarrod (Nov 25, 2008)

Tez3 said:


> Jus a quick question, if you have an accountant who deals with your taxes why was there a problem? surely he should have sorted everything out for you in the first place? Are you sure it was the tax peoples mistake not his?


 
tez, this isn't the first problem i've had with my taxes.  a few years back i received an adjustment notice from the government.  they notified me that they "altered" about a dozen things on my tax return including my income, my marital status, where i lived, & my assets.  when i contested it they let it drop.  i've run into several people who have had similar stories, so it looks to me as if they just go fishing for more money periodically & hope everyone is too intimidated to resist.  

thanks for the input all about getting it in writing.  i will follow up on that.  as for those who said i would be going to prison...some of you don't read so well, huh?

jf


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## SA_BJJ (Nov 26, 2008)

jarrod said:


> tez, this isn't the first problem i've had with my taxes. a few years back i received an adjustment notice from the government. they notified me that they "altered" about a dozen things on my tax return including my income, my marital status, where i lived, & my assets. when i contested it they let it drop. i've run into several people who have had similar stories, so it looks to me as if they just go fishing for more money periodically & hope everyone is too intimidated to resist.
> 
> thanks for the input all about getting it in writing. i will follow up on that. as for those who said i would be going to prison...some of you don't read so well, huh?
> 
> jf


 
You may not go to jail genius, but if you think for one second that if you owed the govt money and they werent going to collect...then you my friend are the idiot.


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## MJS (Nov 26, 2008)

Just a reminder folks, lets do our best to avoid the personal shots at each other.  Everyones opinion will vary, so instead of attacking the person who made the post, disect their post and debate in somewhat of a civil fashion.

Thanks. 

Mike


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2008)

My tax like every other employed person here is done PAYE (pay as you earn) so nothing needs to be be done. Harder for self employed but I believe it's still straight forward enough to do it yourself, getting an accountant is best though as they know the things you can claim for. 
I'm employed by the government (though my boss is the Queen) so I'm glad people pay taxes for my wages, we do try to make sure they get value for money LOL!


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## jarrod (Nov 26, 2008)

SA_BJJ said:


> You may not go to jail genius, but if you think for one second that if you owed the govt money and they werent going to collect...then you my friend are the idiot.


 
if you re-read my previous posts, you will see that i do not, in fact, owe the the government any money.  good luck with your reading comprehension in the future.  

jf


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 26, 2008)

gents, relax eh? Danke.


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## jarrod (Nov 26, 2008)

bob i assure you, my well-wishing was entirely sincere!



jf


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