# On Bullies and the Bullied



## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Bullying is a topic that comes up periodically around here and it's treated, as it often is in society, as a one sided issue. You have bullies. You have victims. And you have adults who mishandle the situation.

The general consensus seems to be that bullies are rotten kids. One person referred to them as "[The] same butt holes [who] will send you an invite to attend the HS reunion...." I believe that there's something larger going on. 

The first point I want to make is that we're dealing with kids.  Most adults are not even remotely the same as they were in high school. Most people grow up. They become more mature. They regret some of the acts of stupidity, are proud of others, and are deeply ashamed of or are embarrassed by others. Ultimately, though, most of them turn into pretty decent human beings.

Most of the kids who are bullied figure out how to handle it. They learn to read situations better. They improve on their social skills. Often, they engage in some activity that improves their self esteem and gives them confidence: wrestling, martial arts, football, band... whatever. Something. And as they grow up and mature, they cease to be the victims they once were. 

And equally important, but often overlooked, is that most of the bullies figure it out, too. In the adult world, there are still bullies. But there are also still victims. I am not suggesting otherwise. What I AM suggesting is that these are simply two sides of the same coin; both are people who failed to figure some important things out as they grew up. They didn't learn how to interact with their peers. But, like the victims of bullies, most bullies grow up. Like the victims, they figure out more productive ways to handle their aggression. They improve on their social skills, and like the victims, this is often through some activity that improves their self esteem and gives them confidence. And also like the victims of bullying, they often grow up and mature, ceasing to be the bullies that they once were.

So, point one: kids grow up. Both bullies and bullied grow up. Most become decent people.

The second point is that all of the kids are trying to figure stuff out. Some kids are bullied. Others are bullies. Most are doing their best to go with the flow and not draw undue attention to themselves. I would argue, though, that in a group of kids being mean, only one or maybe two are actually "bullies." Most of those kids are decent kids who just don't want to be picked on themselves. Are they doing the right thing? No. Should they help the victim? Probably should, yeah, but they're kids. Most of these kids will figure it out. 

So, summarizing the second point, in a group of kids being mean, as an adult, I believe it's important to distinguish between the leaders and the followers. Who is instigating the bullying and which kids are just trying to avoid being in the line of fire? If we're at all interested in training kids to be productive members of society, this is crucial, because often dealing with the followers is as easy as addressing the actual bully.

Third point is often glossed over. The kids who are bullied are so because there is something about their personality that invites it. I'm not saying that they deserve it. Of course, they don't. What I'm suggesting is that if a kid is bullied, it's seldom random. Every kid is picked on. The ones that get bullied are the ones that fail to deflect the negative attention. Attempting to address the bullies without addressing the bullied is like swimming, armed only with a knife, in shark infested waters with a bloody carcass on your back. While you might get one or two sharks, you're failing to address what is inciting the sharks to attack. 

I got bullied as a kid. I was the smart, redheaded, perpetual new kid all the way up to high school. But things changed dramatically for me when I realized that if someone picked on me, how I responded was critical to what events would follow. I learned that things weren't entirely external. I accepted that I was, at least in part, responsible for the situation. And as a result, it was within my power to change things. 

Quick sidebar here, but I get crazy when I have to deal with people who refuse to own their problems.  While there are always exceptions, we all make decisions.  Everyone deals with tough breaks, but if you keep getting bullied I guarantee you that there is something you're doing or not doing. If you keep getting passed over for promotion, it's not because you're a white male or because so and so is a suck up. When people refuse to accept responsibility for things that occur in their lives, they're also ceding any power they might have to change these things. 

Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise.  When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise. When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.


 
First off, thank you for making this post, it's obvious you've put some thought into it.  

I agree with everything else, and even most of this quoted portion, but I have to ask: acknowledging that being merely picked on is part of growing up, where is the line in the sand between leaving kids to deal with it and intervening?  

I think that, clearly, where a teenage student is bullied to the point of committing suicide, some intervention was in order.  But I also recognize that it's a very case-by-case, murky choice to make.  So at what point, if at all, should parents or school administrators intervene, and even then, how exactly?


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

RandomPhantom700 said:


> First off, thank you for making this post, it's obvious you've put some thought into it.
> 
> I agree with everything else, and even most of this quoted portion, but I have to ask: acknowledging that being merely picked on is part of growing up, where is the line in the sand between leaving kids to deal with it and intervening?
> 
> I think that, clearly, where a teenage student is bullied to the point of committing suicide, some intervention was in order. But I also recognize that it's a very case-by-case, murky choice to make. So at what point, if at all, should parents or school administrators intervene, and even then, how exactly?


I don't know.  I think that it's usually pretty easy to see when things get out of hand.  I mean, in the case of the 15 year old girl, there were behaviors that were clearly illegal in play.  The kids were stalking and harrassing the girl.  Being picked on and picking on others is very different than what happened in this extremely sad situation.  

Honestly, I think that the worst situations are the ones that the adults don't see happening.  I mean, if my kids are bullied and I know about, I can talk to them and keep an eye on things.  I wonder how many adults had any idea that the situation in this case was so serious.   I'll bet none.  It's like when my friend killed himself in high school.  No one saw it coming.  He bottled everything up.  Were there signs?  Probably.   

If we're talking about adults failing, in my opinion, it's not usually in deciding whether or not to intercede.  It's in failing to see the situation for what it is in time to take appropriate action (even if that action is to keep an eye on it and not take any direct action).


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## Empty Hands (Apr 6, 2010)

Adults are often part of the bullying problem.  Bullied kids sometimes aren't liked by the adults either, who deliberately turn a blind eye to harassment and assault.

I know you didn't intend this either, but your post can't help but bring up the "she caused the rape by wearing a short skirt" argument.  It's not the bullied's fault because they are different, or have social difficulties, or are just smaller and easier to **** with.  The responsibility should not be placed on them.  They should definitely not be classed with bullies as two sides of the same coin, which implies equal culpability.  As if they were the same.

Also, from talking to those who were viciously bullied when they were younger, they learned nothing useful from it.  Adults often facilitated it.  And there was nothing they could do to stop it.  

We do hold children responsible to a certain degree.  We teach our 5 year olds not to hit each other and to share.  Why do we expect less from teens?


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Empty Hands said:


> Adults are often part of the bullying problem. Bullied kids sometimes aren't liked by the adults either, who deliberately turn a blind eye to harassment and assault.


I've seen you and others bring this up, but in my experience in public schools growing up, in my experience as a parent, and as an advocate in the local public schools, I've never seen this. I will say, though, that adults who deliberately turn a blind eye to children in any kind of crisis should be removed from a position of authority or responsibility over kids. Period. 





> I know you didn't intend this either, but your post can't help but bring up the "she caused the rape by wearing a short skirt" argument. It's not the bullied's fault because they are different, or have social difficulties, or are just smaller and easier to **** with. The responsibility should not be placed on them. They should definitely not be classed with bullies as two sides of the same coin, which implies equal culpability. As if they were the same.


First, I'm not referring to any kind of illegal activity. Once again, adults should certainly intercede when the kids clearly can't handle the situation themselves. 

The similarity between the points that I'm making and any suggestion that a girl is at fault for being raped is tenuous. Not only is rape illegal, but even more fundamentally, I'm talking about chronic, repeated behavior vs any one incident. 

I understand that this might be controversial on this forum, but I do in fact believe that a kid who is the victim of chronic bullying is at least partially responsible. This is different from blame. I'm suggesting that the victim of bullying is lacking the skills necessary to handle the situation him or herself. Rather than eliminating a bully here or there, I'm proposing that a better strategy for that child is to teach him or her the skills that are lacking.   But this insistence that the victim of chronic bullying is no way exacarbating the situation is unrealistic.  

Once again, it's like swimming with that bloody carcass in shark infested waters. As a bystander, we can pop off a few of the sharks, but we'd better serve the swimmer by getting rid of that bloody carcass.

And for the record, I'm not suggesting that bullies not be punished appropriately or that victims of bullying BE punished in any way.  I'm trying to draw a distinction between contribution to a situation and blame for a situation.  I'm not saying that a victim of bullying is doing something _wrong. _  I'm suggesting that they are either doing or not doing things that would affect the situation.  


> Also, from talking to those who were viciously bullied when they were younger, they learned nothing useful from it. Adults often facilitated it. And there was nothing they could do to stop it.


I was viciously bullied as a child, and I can tell you that I learned a lot from it. But maybe I'm projecting. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that I'm wrong yet, though. 


> We do hold children responsible to a certain degree. We teach our 5 year olds not to hit each other and to share. Why do we expect less from teens?


We don't. What we do expect from our teens, however, is for them to be able to handle the situation differently, on a higher level, than we would expect a five year old. At five, we're teaching our kids basic social skills. As a teen, we should be easing our kids from adolescence into adulthood, where interpersonal relationships and communication are much more complicated than with children. 

Once again, I'm not suggesting that adults do nothing. Apathy and ignorance isn't the goal here. I'm suggesting that there are times when direct intervention is counter productive, and that to a point the kids need to learn how to interact on their own. 

Kids who don't learn how to do these things end up being adults who get picked on... or adults who pick on others. Both are problems, in my opinion.


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## Marginal (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> I was viciously bullied as a child, and I can tell you that I learned a lot from it. But maybe I'm projecting. I haven't seen anything to lead me to believe that I'm wrong yet, though.


Just from my experience, most bullying comes from under developed communication skills on both sides. The kids doing the bullying recognize someone not fitting in for one reason or another, (too smart, not fashionable, ugly etc) and then actively act to diminish the undesirable behavior through punishment. 

That could work in a positive manner if the kids are clever enough to understand the concept of constructive criticism. However, very few do so they just act like almighty turds. This in turn further ostracizes the undesirable kids, and that leads to a downward spiral in the kids being attacked in this manner. (For example, if you're ugly, why care about your appearance?)

With a proper dialogue, I might have been able to appear more socially acceptable. Since there wasn't one, I just learned to not try when it came to these kids. I avoided them as much as possible, I certainly didn't feel like trying to get on their good sides. I viewed them as my enemies, and I didn't want to do anything that'd placate them.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 6, 2010)

Good points by all so far, but no amount of rational hypothesis will ever change the reality that some people really *are* just born evil.


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## chaos1551 (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> When people refuse to accept responsibility for things that occur in their lives, they're also ceding any power they might have to change these things.


 
QFT.  

There is no such thing as an "accident-prone" person.

No, no woman deserves to be raped (to glom on to a hyperbolic analogy).  But it happens, so they shouldn't walk alone at night or get drunk at frat parties.

Who swims in shark-infested water with a carcass strapped to their back anyway?  That's crazy even with a knife.  

:uhyeah:


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Andy Moynihan said:


> Good points by all so far, but no amount of rational hypothesis will ever change the reality that some people really *are* just born evil.



Maybe so, but not very many.  

marginal, you made a couple points I'd like to response d to, but it'll have to wait until I have a real keyboard and nit a phone.


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## Andy Moynihan (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Maybe so, but not very many.


 
Thankfully.


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## Carol (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> So, point one: kids grow up. Both bullies and bullied grow up. Most become decent people.



This certainly sounds reasonable to me.   However, I think the concern is over what happens in the interim.  The fact that most kids can survive being bullied without committing suicide is cold comfort, if ya know what I mean. 



> The second point is that all of the kids are trying to figure stuff out. Some kids are bullied. Others are bullies. Most are doing their best to go with the flow and not draw undue attention to themselves. I would argue, though, that in a group of kids being mean, only one or maybe two are actually "bullies." Most of those kids are decent kids who just don't want to be picked on themselves. Are they doing the right thing? No. Should they help the victim? Probably should, yeah, but they're kids. Most of these kids will figure it out.


Agreed, and criminals can have accessories to the fact...however, simply  being an accessory does not recuse from wrongdoing.



> So, summarizing the second point, in a group of kids being mean, as an adult, I believe it's important to distinguish between the leaders and the followers. Who is instigating the bullying and which kids are just trying to avoid being in the line of fire? If we're at all interested in training kids to be productive members of society, this is crucial, because often dealing with the followers is as easy as addressing the actual bully.


Agreed.

When I was bullied...I was able to identify the "ringleaders" as such,  and when things got to the point where I let my parents know or let the  teachers know, what usually happened was the ringleader received a minor  punishment, nothing happened to the cohorts, things would die down for a  couple of weeks, then they were back at me harder than before.




> Third point is often glossed over. The kids who are bullied are so because there is something about their personality that invites it. I'm not saying that they deserve it. Of course, they don't. What I'm suggesting is that if a kid is bullied, it's seldom random. Every kid is picked on. The ones that get bullied are the ones that fail to deflect the negative attention. Attempting to address the bullies without addressing the bullied is like swimming, armed only with a knife, in shark infested waters with a bloody carcass on your back. While you might get one or two sharks, you're failing to address what is inciting the sharks to attack.


It is not always about personality. I knew before I entered school that my legs were messed up and I could not run/jump/play like the normal kids.   I didn't need to be bullied to learn that, nor did I need to be bullied to know that I would eventually need surgery and painful rehab. 

There were definitely elements to my personality that needed improvement, but the answer wasn't simply oh something is broken so I need to fix it.  When I entered first grade I was reading at a level at least a few grades higher but I wasn't as verbal as the other kids.  That wasn't "Interstudent Relations.  Yer doing it wrong."  that was my brain being off-kilter....zooming ahead in some areas and behind in others.  I recall being taken to specialists to help with this and that, I recall being able to repeat "gross and fine motor coordination" before I really knew what it meant.  In order to change something, one must have the capability of making the change. 

The insidious part is, even in kids, behaviour can become learned and ingrained through repetition, and even overcoming disadvantages to ones physicality or personality is not always enough to address a bad situation.  



> Fourth point is that unilaterally protecting kids from bullies is not the right thing to do, in my opinion. We need to protect the kids and keep them safe, and there is ABSOLUTELY a right time to intercede. I'm not suggesting otherwise.  When bullying becomes abuse and harrassment, things have to stop. But kids don't learn anything if adults do everything for them. Sometimes, the best action for the adults at a school to take is NO action, allowing the kids to learn from experience.


There are also going to be situations that can't be overcome without more drastic measures.  With me it took moving to another school.  Certainly, social survival is a very important part of life, and I don't think protecting kids from themselves to the point of mollycoddling is an answer.  But, I don't know what the answer is.   The concern I have is more along the lines of townspeople complaining to town hall about a bad intersection, yet nothing is done until someone gets killed at the intersection.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Marginal said:


> That could work in a positive manner if the kids are clever enough to understand the concept of constructive criticism. However, very few do so they just act like almighty turds. This in turn further ostracizes the undesirable kids, and that leads to a downward spiral in the kids being attacked in this manner. (For example, if you're ugly, why care about your appearance?).


This part, I agree with, for the most part.  Not necessarily about how to give and accept criticism... that's something that many adults never figure out.  But that kids on both sides often lack the wisdom, the perspective and the social skills necessary to keep them from making bad situations worse.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

Carol said:


> This certainly sounds reasonable to me.   However, I think the concern is over what happens in the interim.  The fact that most kids can survive being bullied without committing suicide is cold comfort, if ya know what I mean.


And once again, I'm not talking about bullying to the degree that kids would even consider suicide.  As I've said more than once, there is absolutely a point where adults should get actively involved.





> Agreed, and criminals can have accessories to the fact...however, simply  being an accessory does not recuse from wrongdoing.


We're talking about kids, not criminals.





> When I was bullied...I was able to identify the "ringleaders" as such,  and when things got to the point where I let my parents know or let the  teachers know, what usually happened was the ringleader received a minor  punishment, nothing happened to the cohorts, things would die down for a  couple of weeks, then they were back at me harder than before.


What I'm suggesting is that the adults interceded, but they killed a couple of sharks instead of helping you figure out why you're swimming in the ocean with blood all around.  They treated the symptom, but ultimately failed you because they didn't help you figure out why these kids were targeting you.  They left that for you to figure out.  And I'm not just talking about your legs.  Everyone has things that single them out.  Some are more overt than others, but in every school, I'm 100% confident that there are kids who are geeky, nerdy, overtly disabled or otherwise ripe for being picked on who get along with the other kids perfectly well.  And other kids with nothing overt to single them out who are picked on all the time.  


> It is not always about personality. I knew before I entered school that my legs were messed up and I could not run/jump/play like the normal kids.   I didn't need to be bullied to learn that, nor did I need to be bullied to know that I would eventually need surgery and painful rehab.
> 
> There were definitely elements to my personality that needed improvement, but the answer wasn't simply oh something is broken so I need to fix it.  When I entered first grade I was reading at a level at least a few grades higher but I wasn't as verbal as the other kids.  That wasn't "Interstudent Relations.  Yer doing it wrong."  that was my brain being off-kilter....zooming ahead in some areas and behind in others.  I recall being taken to specialists to help with this and that, I recall being able to repeat "gross and fine motor coordination" before I really knew what it meant.  In order to change something, one must have the capability of making the change.


Where one's personality or social skills are involved, it's never, ever as easy as "something is broken so I need to fix it."  I'm not saying that at all.  

The point that I'm making is that it wasn't JUST your legs being different that led to your being bullied. 

My brother has Aspergers and he got picked on a lot.  He had to learn what most people take for granted, but he DID learn.  He's definitely his own breed of cat, but he gets along fine because he learned behaviors that help him to not be a victim of bullying.  I take it you did to.  That's what I'm getting at.  It's not JUST bullies.  The bullied can do things to change their situation.


> The insidious part is, even in kids, behaviour can become learned and ingrained through repetition, and even overcoming disadvantages to ones physicality or personality is not always enough to address a bad situation.


I agree and in these cases, adults should be actively involved.  Even before this point, the kids could be getting coaching from qualified adults.


> There are also going to be situations that can't be overcome without more drastic measures.  With me it took moving to another school.  Certainly, social survival is a very important part of life, and I don't think protecting kids from themselves to the point of mollycoddling is an answer.  But, I don't know what the answer is.   The concern I have is more along the lines of townspeople complaining to town hall about a bad intersection, yet nothing is done until someone gets killed at the intersection.


I agree, and I don't believe anything I've said contradicts this point.  There are things we can do, and I believe that adults HAVE dropped the ball in a lot of cases. 

What I'm driving at are really just the big points I made earlier.  That most of the kids in school, even the bullies, turn out all right.  High school sucks for most kids, even the bullies.  That the bullied are also part of the equation.  That most of the kids who bully AREN'T really bullies, and finally that the right answer isn't always direct adult intervention.


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## harlan (Apr 6, 2010)

It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults. I do have the experience of actually meeting a childhood bully. 'Peaches', who thoroughly enjoyed beating on the only white girl in the 'hood'. Years later, she started work at a place where I had risen to assist. manager. One day we are taking a break, and she asks me if she knows me...I seemed familiar. I admit, it was a pleasure to inform her with a smile of our childhood.

Could have heard a pin drop. Fear on her face...as a single mom she needed the job. I admit to savoring it, before assuring her we 'were just kids'.


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## Marginal (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> This part, I agree with, for the most part.  Not necessarily about how to give and accept criticism... that's something that many adults never figure out.  But that kids on both sides often lack the wisdom, the perspective and the social skills necessary to keep them from making bad situations worse.


I don't disagree. Constructive criticism was kinda a kludgey term on my part. My point is that the pressure bullies can exert is not always consciously negative. They're mainly just trying to reinforce conformity to what they think are social norms. How the bullied kid perceives and reacts to it is the other half of the equation. 

Both sides tend to reinforce the other. The bullied kids spirals down because there's not much to prop them up, the bullies keep up the pressure because there perceived social problem is still there, or it's getting worse. 

I think improving the communication, or at least making the bullied kid recognize that they're not really being malevolently culled by their peers would help. There's a difference between telling a bullied kid that it's their problem alone, and that all they have to do is act just like the kids who are tormenting them (who honestly wants to emulate an *******?) and telling the kid that the bullying is a result of malformed communication skills on the part of the bullies. One's easier to accept than the other.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 6, 2010)

A thoughtful and fresh approach to the topic, bjj. I'm going to take a day or two to ponder it. A couple of things come to mind. You seem to be getting at the idea that something more has to be done than punish the bully and comfort the victim. It's an interesting proposition for me in that my professional role as defined by Ontario's Education Act is that of a 'prudent and careful parent.' Essentially, in the absence of a parent, I have to think and act in the parent's behalf.

Whether or not parents react appropriately to the news that their child has bullied someone, parents by and large don't reject their own children on the basis of bullying someone else. They don't love one child more for being a victim and another less for being a perpetrator. In much the same, although consequences might be different, the bully and the victim have something in common -- they're both my student, and they both are entitled to my care.

The other thing that comes out of your opening post is that this is bigger than the school yard. Typically, we start out by talking about bullying and end up talking about what teachers are or are not doing about it.


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## Carol (Apr 6, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> The point that I'm making is that it wasn't JUST your legs being different that led to your being bullied.



No it wasn't...but it was a factor that was still just as endogenous.  It wasn't my fault that my I was born with bad legs, nor was it my fault that it took me much longer than it took other kids to develop proper speech and coordination. My mom took me to speech audiologists for years and years and years and years in on my speech, hearing, balance and coordination.  I don't know if they helped...I suspect they didn't and time played a greater role in how I caught up.  These factors likely had more of a negative impact on my personality than messed up legs, however, they were not as visible and certainly not as easy to correct.



> My brother has Aspergers and he got picked on a lot.  He had to learn what most people take for granted, but he DID learn.  He's definitely his own breed of cat, but he gets along fine because he learned behaviors that help him to not be a victim of bullying.  I take it you did to.  That's what I'm getting at.  It's not JUST bullies.  The bullied can do things to change their situation.


I  don't disagree, but I know in my case I absolutely did things to change my behaviour.   And it was not enough. Up until mid June 2003 I was bullied relentlessly, even though I had changed, my leg braces were a distant memory, and my speech/balance had largely caught up to within normal parameters for an 8th grader.  Starting in late August 2003 I was not bullied at all, and by the end of my first week at my new school I had already made a friend or two. I think that spoke more to moving 1000 miles away and being around kids that didn't have bullying me as ingrained behaivour.  Other than being the new kid, I didn't stand out as different.


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

harlan said:


> It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults. I do have the experience of actually meeting a childhood bully. 'Peaches', who thoroughly enjoyed beating on the only white girl in the 'hood'. Years later, she started work at a place where I had risen to assist. manager. One day we are taking a break, and she asks me if she knows me...I seemed familiar. I admit, it was a pleasure to inform her with a smile of our childhood.
> 
> Could have heard a pin drop. Fear on her face...as a single mom she needed the job. I admit to savoring it, before assuring her we 'were just kids'.


When I first read this, I was immediately reminded of the early '90s when we heard so often, "But I don't know any gays!"  

I'll bet you know plenty of people who were considered bullies as kids, but simply grew out of it.  They dealt with their own issues and figured out more positive, constructive ways to interact with other people.  They probably don't, however, wear signs that say, "I used to be a bully."

I'll even go one further.  I'd bet that most of us here on this board have done things in our own youth that are remembered as bullying by another child.  I know for sure it's true in my own case, as much as I'm ashamed to admit it.  While I was never a true bully, I can think of one kid I was in 6th grade with in particular who would disagree with me.

Gordon Nore, I'm looking forward to reading more of your thoughts on the subject.  

Carol, I'm sure you're right, but it doesn't negate my points.  While sometimes a fresh start is all it takes, had you not accepted your own role in your situation a fresh start would have been a brief reprieve from bullying.  I know people who moved from school to school and were victims of bullying at every single one.  A fresh start didn't help them at all because whatever marked them as a victim hadn't yet been addressed.


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## jks9199 (Apr 6, 2010)

H'mm...  A couple of comments mentioned decades.

Makes me wonder.  I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s.  Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in?  Are things different -- and have they been different since?


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## Steve (Apr 6, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> H'mm...  A couple of comments mentioned decades.
> 
> Makes me wonder.  I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s.  Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in?  Are things different -- and have they been different since?


Good questions.  I am also a product of the 80's.  Garfield HS, c/o '88.


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## harlan (Apr 7, 2010)

As a product of the '60's and '70's - yes. I do think things have changed. And for the record, I do think that there has always been a gender difference in the way bullying, harrassment and violence (mental, social, physical, etc.) is acted out. Girls are worse, and I think the cyber aspect intensifies the clique.



jks9199 said:


> H'mm... A couple of comments mentioned decades.
> 
> Makes me wonder. I graduated HS in the mid-to-late 80s. Is my perception and my opinion on this issue shaped by the times I grew up in? Are things different -- and have they been different since?


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## Stac3y (Apr 7, 2010)

harlan said:


> It's an interesting post, but I've yet to see any evidence anywhere of bullies that turned out to be sterling adults.


 
Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.



I used to wonder quite a bit what happened with the students who consistently bullied me during middle school. Did they ever realize the impact it had? Did they care? Were their children bullied later, and how did they respond?

Imponderables. If I really wanted to know, I might have gone to homecoming. Never bothered.


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## dancingalone (Apr 7, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> I used to wonder quite a bit what happened with the students who consistently bullied me during middle school. Did they ever realize the impact it had? Did they care? Were their children bullied later, and how did they respond?
> 
> Imponderables. If I really wanted to know, I might have gone to homecoming. Never bothered.



I attended my high school reunion a few years ago.  Lots of interesting changes in my classmates over the years....

I'll share one short vignette.  My chemistry lab partner in HS was an awkward, unpopular boy with poor social skills.  I still remember him looking down at the floor in obvious pain as we sorted up in threes, expecting obviously to be left unpicked.  On a whim, I asked him if he wanted to join my group to complete the trio and he brightened up immediately.  At our reunion, he mentioned it and thanked me.  He's now married with three kids.

I'm now pained that I didn't make more of an effort to make his days easier back when we were in school together.  I know he didn't have the best experiences back then...


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## Blade96 (Apr 7, 2010)

I dont really have any friends, not many, and i was bullied. What did I do? I blamed myself. You're feeling bad, you dont like yourself, you're gonna blame yourself. This is actually common among people who are abused and bullied, to blame yourself. I am afraid that stevebjj, though he might have good intentions by writing this thread, it might not actually help. It doesnt help when I verbalize to my family (out of needing someone to talk to) and they have blamed me over the years. 'well what are you doing or not doing'? I dont go out much and have a really hard time making friends because I'm always rejected. and only ever had one bf in my life and that was for only 6 months. five years ago. I still blame myself and have lots of negative thoughts like i think my social skills must be crap because people tend to avoid me. My self esteem is crap because of how people treat me. I dont think people who are in my situation need to hear that it is their fault that there is something about THEM that escalated the situation.

I should really go to the brown belts in my dojo  as well as my Sandan friend and Yondan friend who actually did make an attempt (after ignoring me when i was a white belt) to be my friends as well as my senseis who favor me and pay me a lot of attention. One of my senseis said 'Idk why I liked you - Maybe its your personality - just liked ya.' You have no idea how good that made me feel after having to suffer being rejected by people all my life and feeling isolated from the world. and actually being able to go to the bars and have a drink with them.

When I took my sandan out for a beer - that was the first time I ever did that for anyone.

I think one of the most healing things you can say to someone who has been a victim is, "Its not your fault"

Shotokan karate-do is much easier for me than making friends. I am shy and afraid of people because of being rejected and judged all the time because I am different. but in shotokan I am good at it and that makes me feel good. 

I am a good person (i think you people can tell that) Maybe if I was a jerk or something, I might be able to understand most people's coldness towards me. 

But I dont have a problem admitting that I really dont care for most people as a result and I dont trust them at all. I dont really talk to anybody but i wont be a jerk about it though. I'd rather avoid people cause I know what happens most of the time.

I dont see why it would be my fault though. and it really doesnt help me or my self esteem when I do blame myself (which is a lot)


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Shotokan karate-do is much easier for me than making friends. I am shy and afraid of people because of being rejected and judged all the time because I am different. but in shotokan I am good at it and that makes me feel good.



Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!

Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am *an* athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.

It may not be possible for parents and educators to intervene to the extent that a child who is bullied is absolutely insulated from his tormentors. There has to be an effort to help that kid develop confidence in him or herself too. The bullies are always going to be there, and we do have to teach kids resilience, which by no means excuses behaviour which is cruel and anti-social.


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## Steve (Apr 7, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I attended my high school reunion a few years ago. Lots of interesting changes in my classmates over the years....
> 
> I'll share one short vignette. My chemistry lab partner in HS was an awkward, unpopular boy with poor social skills. I still remember him looking down at the floor in obvious pain as we sorted up in threes, expecting obviously to be left unpicked. On a whim, I asked him if he wanted to join my group to complete the trio and he brightened up immediately. At our reunion, he mentioned it and thanked me. He's now married with three kids.
> 
> I'm now pained that I didn't make more of an effort to make his days easier back when we were in school together. I know he didn't have the best experiences back then...


These are exactly the kinds of life lessons I'm talking about. While you weren't a bully per se, you could have been nicer. The simple act of kindness you admit was done on a whim is something you both remembered, and from it you both learned something. 

This is a great example of the second point I made in the OP. Kids figure things out.



Blade96 said:


> I should really go to the brown belts in my dojo as well as my Sandan friend and Yondan friend who actually did make an attempt (after ignoring me when i was a white belt) to be my friends as well as my senseis who favor me and pay me a lot of attention. One of my senseis said 'Idk why I liked you - Maybe its your personality - just liked ya.' You have no idea how good that made me feel after having to suffer being rejected by people all my life and feeling isolated from the world. and actually being able to go to the bars and have a drink with them.
> 
> When I took my sandan out for a beer - that was the first time I ever did that for anyone.
> 
> ...


There's a lot going on in this post, Blade. I'll try to tackle just a couple of the items.

First, I think it's critical to tackle these things while people are younger. Kids are actively learning social skills, while adults pretty much either have them or not. As we get older, the relationships just get more complicated. 

One of the things I think is critical and your stories highlight is that kids really need at least one good friend, someone whom they can relax around and let down their guard. This is one area where adults can really be useful, helping kids make friends like this. 

Another thing that I noticed in your post is your use of words like 'fault' and 'blame'. I've never suggested that the victims of bullying are at fault or are to blame. What i'm suggesting is that they share some responsibility, and as such can take actions that will affect the situation.

For example, you mention some of the things you're doing now that are different than when you were a kid, and the results are different as well. There are behaviors that are destructive to getting along with people, and what I'm suggesting is that there are times when a person who is bullied take an honest, objective look at the situation and ask themselves, "Okay. Something's got to change. What can I do to change my situation?" Adults can help, but at some point, the child needs to become an active participant instead of a passive recipient.

Here's another metaphor. I don't know about elsewhere, but in the USA it's commonly believed that if you're hit from behind in a car accident, the person who rear-ended you is at fault. They didn't stop in time. They ran into the back of my car. They're at fault. 

But if you are 20 years old, have been driving for 4 years or so, and have been rear-ended 10 times, do you honestly believe that you are in no way contributing to the situation? There's something... some behavior... something that you're doing that is putting you at risk for these types of accidents.

Whether you're "at fault" in these accidents or not, wouldn't you at some point start looking around for things that you can do to stop getting into accidents?





Gordon Nore said:


> Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!
> 
> Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am *an* athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.
> 
> It may not be possible for parents and educators to intervene to the extent that a child who is bullied is absolutely insulated from his tormentors. There has to be an effort to help that kid develop confidence in him or herself too. The bullies are always going to be there, and we do have to teach kids resilience, which by no means excuses behaviour which is cruel and anti-social.


This last part is so important, Gordon. Why would we want to insulate our kids? I'd MUCH rather teach them the skills they'll need to get along. This _includes_ anti-social behavior of all kinds, whether cruel to others or cruel to themselves.  It seems to me that we often focus on punishing the anti-social behavior of bullies, rather than working to teach better social skills to all of the kids.

After all, it's often anti-social behavior that GETS kids bullied.  It's just manifesting differently.


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## Blade96 (Apr 7, 2010)

Gordon Nore said:


> Martial arts training, which I tried briefly in my late twenties, but then in earnest in my mid-thirties, was enormously cathartic. One of the things that isolated me from peers was a lack of interest in sports and an obvious lack of ability. The one sport I was good at and enjoyed was baseball. Growing up in Canada, though, the hockey season takes up a big chunk of the year. Here you can play hockey and get heatstroke on the same day. So I sort of had something in common with my peers around May!
> 
> Doing the MA training and pursuing it to the point of competing successfully, teaching, achieving my black belt taught me that I am *an* athlete. To achieve the latter step of earning a dan in my late forties was quite empowering. I confess wondering if some of my classmates were not by this time bloated couch potatoes living off of past glories. The mind wanders sometimes.



My MA training and that I competed rather successfully in my first Kata competition, also earning my first belt, yellow, also taught me that I also am an athlete. While I wasnt isolated because i wasnt into sports (I loved hockey and sometimes the same bullies who made my life hell would also praise my hockey knowledge and the fact that i was a really good at reading and could do schoolwork well, also, when we played soccer I was pretty good at being the goalie and they would praise that. Go figure), I hear ya. 

Btw I also hear ya in that karma is a *****. I learned a long time later that some of these people who hurt me were having a downward spiral through life, got a house of kids and especially not much of a great life in the case of THE BIGGEST bully of them all, kids and a sucky life, while I am out earning gold medals, getting university degree, and earning belts in karate 



stevebjj said:


> One of the things I think is critical and your stories highlight is that kids really need at least one good friend, someone whom they can relax around and let down their guard. This is one area where adults can really be useful, helping kids make friends like this.
> 
> There are behaviors that are destructive to getting along with people, and what I'm suggesting is that there are times when a person who is bullied take an honest, objective look at the situation and ask themselves, "Okay. Something's got to change. What can I do to change my situation?" Adults can help, but at some point, the child needs to become an active participant instead of a passive recipient.



I hear ya, but it would be rather difficult for a person driven mad by abuse to do this. To do this calls for rational thinking and being able to think about it. and being able to do it might not happen til years down the road when they are feeling better and have begun to heal a little. Then, and only then, they MIGHT be able to hear a little constructive criticism. Unfortunately, now that I can think about it as an adult, I still dont believe i could have changed my peers' perceptions of me. Especially with the biggest bully of them all. He hurt a lot of people, not just me, and everyone hated him.  Was just the way he was.

The only thing that detered him was in jr high school when i was in a group of friends. I was mostly protected from bullies by, as you stated, having at least one good friend. In high school, they dumped me however, and i was alone. Thats when my life really became hell, and the school wouldnt do anything, and my only choice was to leave.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 7, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Whether you're "at fault" in these accidents or not, wouldn't you at some point start looking around for things that you can do to stop getting into accidents?*This last part is so important, Gordon. Why would we want to insulate our kids?* I'd MUCH rather teach them the skills they'll need to get along. This _includes_ anti-social behavior of all kinds, whether cruel to others or cruel to themselves.  It seems to me that we often focus on punishing the anti-social behavior of bullies, rather than working to teach better social skills to all of the kids.



Why indeed? This is an important and helpful discussion for me. My job as a teacher puts in contact with bullies and the bullied, and I have a professional duty to serve them both. This reminds how very important it is to both that I don't project based on past experience.

When I was in middle school, I had one teacher that I knew understood my predicament, but it was a different time. He was a beginning teacher with no juice in a system of closely guarded tradition and the old boys mentality.

Today it's different. We're not swimming against the tide by dealing with bullying -- it's our job.


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## searcher (Apr 8, 2010)

Stac3y said:


> Yep, my childhood bully turned out to be a real nasty piece of work as an adult. I think that most of the time, rotten kids, unless there's some kind of intervention (which may be self-applied), grow into rotten adults.


 

Agreed.    2 of mine are wasted drug users and one other is a moocher.

I have seen some of the ones who bullied me since I got out of high school and I must say, they are not even worth the bother these days.    I have used intellect to put 2 of them in their place and the others are now scared of me, though I have done nothing to them to deserve their fear.

In the end it all worked out for me, but it could have easily went another direction.      I could have been a Columbine kid with very little assistance.     And that scares me more than any bully ever did.


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## Marginal (Apr 8, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I hear ya, but it would be rather difficult for a person driven mad by abuse to do this. To do this calls for rational thinking and being able to think about it. and being able to do it might not happen til years down the road when they are feeling better and have begun to heal a little.


I can see this. By the time high school rolled around, I flat out didn't trust anyone my age. Even if a kid tried to be nice to me out of the blue, I'd shoot them down fearing that they were trying to set me up.

That reflex does come in handy with those door to door magazine salesmen tho.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children.  I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism.  I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.


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## Drac (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.


 
Yeah its amazing how much of that happens..Which is why I hate the High School Musicals, high school is anything but fun if you aint one of the beautiful people, tough guys or jocks...I wonder if we will see a jump in home schooling???


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 8, 2010)

I went to school from kindergarten through grade 13 with basically all the same kids, we all grow up together. Around grade 5/6 I suddenly became very shy, this lasted till about grade 11/12. In garde 7/8 I meet up with some kids in middle school who didn't know me and started to give me a bit of a hard time, not much but enough that I remember and resent it. Come high school I went to the "normal" school, they went to the "special' school.

I also started weight training in grade 7, (and still do 30 years later), and added some good size around grade 11. I had no idea how to fight but I "looked" intimidating enough I guess.

I guy I worked with for years came into work once, he was about 40, and was all excited. Apparently the evening before he met up with the guy who bullied him all through grade school. Apparently the bully told my coworker, we were just kids, my coworker, who at the time was a brown belt in karate, would have none of it, and beat the **** outta the guy.

I don't know about the ethics of it, but i and I'm sure everyone else can understanding wanting to do such a thing.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.


 
My MA teachers, who were big strapping young men in their twenties when I started with them, often spoke of being small boys who were picked on. I ended up getting into a lot of fights when I had enough of being pushed around. My son, on the other hand, has trained from a very early age and managed to avoid physical confrontations. I wonder if some confidence came with the training, so he just didn't have anything to prove.


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## Ken Morgan (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children. I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism. I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.


 
I mentioned it before on this forum, when my son was in grade 3 I sent him to boxing school. I told him he was never to start anything, but if he had to, he was allowed to finish them. Yes he got into fights, yes he was suspended, but he now won the fights and funny, the bulling stopped and he and his friends were never bullied again.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> I mentioned it before on this forum, when my son was in grade 3 I sent him to boxing school. I told him he was never to start anything, but if he had to, he was allowed to finish them. Yes he got into fights, yes he was suspended, but he now won the fights and funny, the bulling stopped and he and his friends were never bullied again.



I am an ethnic Asian who grew up in the southern US.  You'd think that would make me a poster child for 'bullied', but I was fairly liked from almost as early as I could remember.  Being in sports and other activities helped, and I had supportive parents who wanted me to be 'American'.

The one time I could remember someone picking on me because my appearance was different occurred in 3rd grade and I beat up my bully purely out of natural aggression, with no MA training to speak of.  I was angrier than he was.  Funny how we were friends after that.

Of course that was before the days of "zero tolerance" and such in schools.  The teachers would sometimes let the kids sort their differences out in their way, and sometimes that meant with fists.  Then again, we had no gangs when I was growing up.  Fights were strictly mano a mano and there was an unspoken code of what was right or not.


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## blink13 (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I am an ethnic Asian who grew up in the southern US.  You'd think that would make me a poster child for 'bullied',



I am a native Southerner and wouldn't think that being an ethnic Asian automatically makes you a target/victim.

I'm not looking to start anything here, but I can read the implication, and being Southern does not equal being a racist.

I am sure you didn't mean everyone - maybe just in your area, and in your experience, and yes, I concede that we don't have the best track record.  We're not all backwards, though. 

Thanks.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

Dave699 said:


> I am a native Southerner and wouldn't think that being an ethnic Asian automatically makes you a target/victim.
> 
> I'm not looking to start anything here, but I can read the implication, and being Southern does not equal being a racist.
> 
> ...



Actually, I consider myself a Texan and am proud to be one.  The point I am making is not necessarily a case of southerners being racist.  It's that I grew up in a particularly homogeneous area where my physical appearance did not match the majority of the residents there.  I believe I could make the same point if I had grown up in Bozeman, Montana, no offense to any Montanans out there.

People are people and outliers from the norm generally come under additional levels of scrutiny/distrust/dislike/prejudice.  You could switch it around to other homogeneous communities in other countries if you'd like.  I think it's still true.  In the US, where the communities are more diverse racially like Austin, Texas or Seattle, Washington, I believe physical appearance plays much less of a role INITIALLY.  Obvious as relationships develop, physical appearance goes to the back burner.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind.  If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else?   Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?

Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  They're just learning how to relate to each other.  As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.  

Am I completely off base?


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind.  If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else?   Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?
> 
> Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  They're just learning how to relate to each other.  As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.
> 
> Am I completely off base?



How do you define bullying personally, Steve?  I think some have too liberal of a definition... not inviting someone to a party does not constitute bullying in my book.  Saying a few unkind words here or there does not necessarily do it for me either.

Consider team sports like American football.  I played it up through high school and it's rife with what many would consider bullying.  There is often "locker room reinforcement" where some of the leaders of the team will exert physical and emotional pressure on the low performers to improve and the methods used are frequently coercive in nature.  Is this bullying?  If so, I would have to admit "guilty" to your question.


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

No. I never bullied anyone. Dominated, yes. There is a difference. In interpersonal relationships, whether it's by birth order or socially defined roles or genetic determinism for species survival, people will sort out hierarchies. Some don't even need to do anything, much less resort to violence or aggression, to be acknowledged. 



stevebjj said:


> Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?
> 
> Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships. They're just learning how to relate to each other. As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.
> 
> Am I completely off base?


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## Carol (Apr 8, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind.  If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else?   Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?
> 
> Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  They're just learning how to relate to each other.  As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.
> 
> Am I completely off base?



Yes, I can honestly say there is no one around anywhere that would remember me as a bully as a child.  As an adult, however, my personality became a lot more aggressive.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> How do you define bullying personally, Steve? I think some have too liberal of a definition... not inviting someone to a party does not constitute bullying in my book. Saying a few unkind words here or there does not necessarily do it for me either.
> 
> Consider team sports like American football. I played it up through high school and it's rife with what many would consider bullying. There is often "locker room reinforcement" where some of the leaders of the team will exert physical and emotional pressure on the low performers to improve and the methods used are frequently coercive in nature. Is this bullying? If so, I would have to admit "guilty" to your question.


I'm not talking about any official definition. I'm asking you guys to consider for a moment whether someone else might be telling stories from their youth in which YOU are the bully. Right or wrong, just or unjust and regardless of intent. 

It's really a question just to get people to think a little outside their own perspective. 

This question comes from my own experiences as a youth, but also from working with my son. There was a time a few years back... 5th grade. He was having real problems with this particular boy in the school who was bullying him. This kid was provoking my son and generally just making his life miserable. Turns out, though, that after talking to the counselor and eventually working with the other boy's parents, the OTHER boy was complaining about my son. In his mind, my son was bullying HIM.   The reality was, as is often the case, somewhere in between.  Both kids were unsuccessfully trying to cope with a personality that conflicted with their own.  As kids, they just didn't have the social tools necessary to handle the situation and as a result, the situation got worse and worse until adult intervention became necessary.  They ended up being pretty good friends, but only AFTER they each realized what was happening and got some coaching.

While I'll roll with whatever direction this thread goes, one of the central points I'm trying to explore is one of perspective. While there are some people who are born losers, I believe these people are few and far between. Most kids whom we remember as being bullies were just kids making bad decisions. Whether someone is a bully or not really has a lot to do with which side of THAT SPECIFIC relationship you were on. I'm suggesting that most kids are BOTH bullied and bullies depending upon who you ask.

What I'm actually beginning to wonder, though, is whether it's really more of a case where the bullied become bullies in their adult lives. At least for some.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> This question comes from my own experiences as a youth, but also from working with my son. There was a time a few years back... 5th grade. He was having real problems with this particular boy in the school who was bullying him. This kid was provoking my son and generally just making his life miserable. Turns out, though, that after talking to the counselor and eventually working with the other boy's parents, the OTHER boy was complaining about my son. In his mind, my son was bullying HIM.   The reality was, as is often the case, somewhere in between.  Both kids were unsuccessfully trying to cope with a personality that conflicted with their own.  As kids, they just didn't have the social tools necessary to handle the situation and as a result, the situation got worse and worse until adult intervention became necessary.  They ended up being pretty good friends, but only AFTER they each realized what was happening and got some coaching.
> 
> While I'll roll with whatever direction this thread goes, one of the central points I'm trying to explore is one of perspective. While there are some people who are born losers, I believe these people are few and far between. Most kids whom we remember as being bullies were just kids making bad decisions. Whether someone is a bully or not really has a lot to do with which side of THAT SPECIFIC relationship you were on. I'm suggesting that most kids are BOTH bullied and bullies depending upon who you ask.
> 
> What I'm actually beginning to wonder, though, is whether it's really more of a case where the bullied become bullies in their adult lives. At least for some.



Oh, I don't think it's such a 2-way street in most cases.  I think bullies know they are bullying their victims, even if they won't admit it to people in authority or those in guidance roles when called to the carpet on it.

What happened with your son is surely the exception rather than the rule.  Anyone who has attended public school in the US has seen smaller, weaker kids being shoved, prodded, or humiliated by bigger, stronger, more popular kids.  Why?  Because they can, and it's a form of alpha dominance display.  The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen.  Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.


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## Marginal (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children.  I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism.  I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.



I wouldn't call MA a cure all. Karate didn't do much for me at all back in middle school. I think in general participating in a group activity where you find that not everyone in the world is a jerk is what helps the most. Since MA's tend to have rules of conduct attached to them, you're not as likely to get harried by a classmate. Far easier to build up your self confidence in an environment you consider safe.  

It's way easier to be less socially stunted with some sense of self worth.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Oh, I don't think it's such a 2-way street in most cases. I think bullies know they are bullying their victims, even if they won't admit it to people in authority or those in guidance roles when called to the carpet on it.
> 
> What happened with your son is surely the exception rather than the rule. Anyone who has attended public school in the US has seen smaller, weaker kids being shoved, prodded, or humiliated by bigger, stronger, more popular kids. Why? Because they can, and it's a form of alpha dominance display. The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen. Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.


Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence. 

Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.

What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social.  Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying.  Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.


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## dancingalone (Apr 8, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence.



By the same token, why must every bully have some deep-seated and reasonable motivation?  And why must every victim also be a bully himself?  I said I don't believe it's a 2-way street.  That seems like a logical enough position.  

Out of curiosity why do you think it must be, the example of your son notwithstanding?  



> Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.



You see pack phenomenon time and time again.  Kids can be entirely cruel to one another, regardless of what lessons their parents are trying to teach.  It's jostling for position even if it's only in their minds, and truthfully children are not fully developed emotionally or mentally.  It's not unreasonable to think that children might be more volatile or irrational from day to day.  

It's not just children either.  Adults don't like to swim against the current either, and it can be easy to ignore malicious behavior by others (as long as it's not against you!) if the target is someone seen as weak.  Whatever our capacity for reason and thought, it's clear that reason is not the only motivation that drives our actions.



> What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social.  Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying.  Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.



Well, I generally understand what you are saying, but what would you have the victims do?  They are precisely victims because they exhibit qualities that draws out the sharp teeth:  they might be small or weak or ugly or have poor social skills.  It's not like they can suddenly decide to be strong and personable.  Given that reality, it should be no surprise why most everyone would rather address the problem of bullying by looking at the perpetrators themselves.


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## Blade96 (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> It's interesting that so many on this thread as well as the other one were bullied as children.  I wonder if that says anything about martial arts as a coping mechanism.  I've never been a big fan of teaching children MA, but this thread is making me rethink my position.



May be true for some here but please ignore me with this one. I didnt even really know what ma was ....yes I watched the teenage mutant ninja turtles cartoon series when i was a teen (lol, dont laugh) with their Sensei, but I never knew it was ma or that it was called ma or even what ma was. Never even considered ma until last year. and that happened very quickly, for reasons I dont even know what started it. I know what triggered it - a movie of which my forum name is that name of the character. But I didnt plan to become a ma - it just happened. and it had nothig to do with bullies or bullying.



stevebjj said:


> Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind.  If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else?   Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?
> 
> Maybe I'm not giving kids enough credit in this, but my personal opinion is that kids are, in general, functionally incompetent when it comes to interpersonal relationships.  They're just learning how to relate to each other.  As a result, my belief is that with very few exceptions, most children are considered a bully by someone.
> 
> Am I completely off base?



In jr highschool you often do what you do to survive. i was a part of a clique that sometimes bullied. and to be part of it - and it in turn protected me from bullies - i sometimes did it with them. Wasnt because i was mean, when i think about it now - it was for survival. 



harlan said:


> No. I never bullied anyone. Dominated, yes. There is a difference. In interpersonal relationships, whether it's by birth order or socially defined roles or genetic determinism for species survival, people will sort out hierarchies. Some don't even need to do anything, much less resort to violence or aggression, to be acknowledged.



Hierarchies arent the same as bullying. Hierarchies help promote social stability. we have a definite one in our Shotokan. 



dancingalone said:


> Well, I generally understand what you are saying, but what would you have the victims do?  They are precisely victims because they exhibit qualities that draws out the sharp teeth:  they might be small or weak or ugly or have poor social skills.  *It's not like they can suddenly decide to be strong and personable.  Given that reality, it should be no surprise why most everyone would rather address the problem of bullying by looking at the perpetrators themselves.*



very true!

and bullies often possess power....which is why they can bully. Its very very difficult for a weaker victim to take care of that themselves.


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

Somewhere, there is a vague memory, of 'bullies in brown shirts'....



stevebjj said:


> Okay, I'll try a different tack here. What if you're wrong? I mean, having been bullied, you're really stuck in seeing things from that perspective. You're presuming to know why the bully is bullying. You're just guessing. You really have no idea. I've been on both sides of the fence.
> 
> Chalking it all up to a simple display of alpha dominance is, frankly, insulting to use in reference to any human being, child or not. It's a choice of language intended to dehumanize the kids who are bullying other kids so that it's easier to dismiss them. They're not humans, after all. They're bullies, completely subject to the whims of their base instincts. Let's corral them all and put them in jail, celebrating any misfortune that they might have in their adult lives. Suggesting that kids are slaves to animal instincts ignores the efforts that parents, educators and role models have in teaching them how to behave.
> 
> What I'm driving at is that both kids in a bullying situation are acting in a way that is anti-social.  Bullying is an anti-social behavior, but so is whatever behavior invites persistent bullying.  Honestly, I'm disheartened by the readiness so many people have to write off so many kids. I can at least understand some of the calls to action where bullying moves into the arena of harrassment or assault. But I've read on this board suggestions that all bullies be jailed.


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## Gordon Nore (Apr 8, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> The bullying occurs only in one direction from what I have seen.  Usually, the weaker kid has no real recourse at all with the sad exception of the Columbine types.



I'm not so sure about the Columbine reference, dancingalone. A couple years back I read a review of two then published books that addressed some misconceptions of the rampage. Among these was that the perpetrators had been bullied -- indeed the authors asserted that they themselves had intimidated others for sometime, which is  not to say they weren't both dishing it out and taking it. One of the authors, a journalist, chipped away at various misinformation that became crystallized in the early reporting of the event.

But I raise Columbine for another reason: The idea that extremely bullied children might themselves resort to violence, I think, drives much of the current angst about bullies and bullying in schools and in the media. Many times over the years, I've heard people reference Columbine as an example of tortured souls striking back in rage, as if the events in Littleton were a cautionary tale.

I still take bullying very seriously for professional reasons, but I don't know if the issue is always being discussed and dealt with for the best reasons.

I'll dig around and see if I can cite a source.


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## jks9199 (Apr 8, 2010)

There's a lot of better information regarding Columbine than the popular mythology; Harris & Klebold weren't the bullied outsiders commonly depicted.  They were disturbed, no doubt about that, and there were plenty of missed signs.  But the truth is that it's not nearly a simple case... just like there's no simple way to address bullying.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

harlan said:


> Somewhere, there is a vague memory, of 'bullies in brown shirts'....


I'm completely missing the message here.  If it's a reference, it's over my head.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> In jr highschool you often do what you do to survive. i was a part of a clique that sometimes bullied. and to be part of it - and it in turn protected me from bullies - i sometimes did it with them. Wasnt because i was mean, when i think about it now - it was for survival.


Exactly the kind of thing I was mentioning before. I'd put most kids in the same boat.  


> and bullies often possess power....which is why they can bully. Its very very difficult for a weaker victim to take care of that themselves.


But you said yourself that you took part in bullying other kids.  Why then don't you consider yourself a bully?  Blade, this is EXACTLY what I was driving at... this disconnect between the bullying behavior and people who consider themselves to be bullies.


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

Sorry...just musing.

The way I look at it, there have always been bullies, and there will always be bullies. They will always find avenues to perpetrate violence on the weak, or the marginalized (sp?), and thrive when ignored or dismissed by apologist arguments. Bullies today, Nazis tomorrow. Zero tolerance.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

harlan said:


> Sorry...just musing.
> 
> The way I look at it, there have always been bullies, and there will always be bullies. They will always find avenues to perpetrate violence on the weak, or the marginalized (sp?), and thrive when ignored or dismissed by apologist arguments. Bullies today, Nazis tomorrow. Zero tolerance.



Okay.  So just so we are clear.  You're calling me an apologist as well as a Nazi.  And you also happen to be calling blade a Nazi too.  Don't you think there's sone room to reconsider?


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

I inferred no such thing. I think my post was clear: bullies unchecked today are potentially bigger problems tomorrow. Let me state for the record that bullies exist...my problem is with people abrogating social responsibility for the larger good. For individuals who are aware that these things happen...and not doing anything about it. I feel bad about that girl because she was weak, and it was the responsibility of the school administration, in whom we are required by law to entrust our children for schooling, to keep her safe. Of course, having knowledge of the superintendent, I'm not surprised. It was 'do nothing', and this is the result.

http://onlyintherepublicofamherst.blogspot.com/2010/04/gus-sayer-just-go-i-dont-care-how-just.html

However, I see the discussion is a topic close to your heart, and opposing opinions taken as hostile, and will withdraw.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

harlan said:


> I inferred no such thing.


LOL...  no, it wasn't implied at all.  I have already admitted to being both bullied and bullying others.  Blade96 did, too.  Zero tolerance.  Bullies today, nazis tomorrow.  

It is blatant, not implied at all.  I was pretty sure you didn't MEAN those things, but be that as it may, that it exactly what you wrote.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

harlan said:


> I inferred no such thing. I think my post was clear: bullies unchecked today are potentially bigger problems tomorrow. Let me state for the record that bullies exist...my problem is with people abrogating social responsibility for the larger good. For individuals who are aware that these things happen...and not doing anything about it. I feel bad about that girl because she was weak, and it was the responsibility of the school administration, in whom we are required by law to entrust our children for schooling, to keep her safe. Of course, having knowledge of the superintendent, I'm not surprised. It was 'do nothing', and this is the result.
> 
> http://onlyintherepublicofamherst.blogspot.com/2010/04/gus-sayer-just-go-i-dont-care-how-just.html
> 
> However, I see the discussion is a topic close to your heart, and opposing opinions taken as hostile, and will withdraw.


Okay, Harlan.  I noticed that you edited your post after I had already replied.  

The topic is important to me, of course, but I'm not angry, nor do I believe I'm being hostile.  I'm genuinely sorry you feel that's the case.   I do believe that you should consider your words more carefully.  Honestly, I'm not sure how one could misunderstand your intent.  It continues to seem that clear to me. 

I would also like to remind you that I have from the beginning tried to make it clear that adult intervention is absolutely appropriate, although I would advocate indirect intervention in most cases.  

I guess, if anything, it appears to me that you are the one getting a little heated, and I think that's a shame because the discussion was interesting and appeared to me to be moving forward, until you called me a nazi.


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## grydth (Apr 8, 2010)

Folks, I'd *strongly* suggest you leave _any_ references to the SA/Brown Shirts/ Nazis out of this thread. I am very aware of what they were and what they did - it doesn't belong here. Period.

I have never seen one instance of Nazis being brought up where the discussion didn't go south in a hurry and an otherwise good thread wound up being locked.

If a moderator needs to intervene, there could be consequences...


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## harlan (Apr 8, 2010)

Would a safer comparison be 'terrorists'? I can understand why any self-professed childhood bully would be uncomfortable with sharing a label with some of history's worst case examples. It is, of course, a spectrum. As humans, we all share the same genetic makeup for good and bad.


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## Steve (Apr 8, 2010)

At this point, Harlan, you're completely out of line and I would recommend that you take your own advice and recuse yourself from the discussion.  You're going to get yourself banned if you persist.


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## Grenadier (Apr 8, 2010)

There's simply no need to bring in references to the Nazis, Al-Qaeda, the KKK, Black Panthers, etc.  These groups really have nothing to do with the current discussion.  If you want to bring them into such talks, then start a new thread.  

This is a very good discussion, and I'd rather we keep it on-topic.  

That being said: 

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please return to the original topic.*

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator


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## Blade96 (Apr 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Exactly the kind of thing I was mentioning before. I'd put most kids in the same boat.



Yup. 



			
				steve said:
			
		

> But you said yourself that you took part in bullying other kids.  Why then don't you consider yourself a bully?  Blade, this is EXACTLY what I was driving at... this disconnect between the bullying behavior and people who consider themselves to be bullies.



when i took part in the behavior i was being a bully. being led by the leaders of this clique which i now recognize was evil. I didnt know it at the time. i didnt know that that group would be defined as a clique (and that 3  years later when we reached high school, grade 10 - we were in grade 7 when we met - that same group turned on me and started bullying me in high school.) I quit high school in grade 10. never graduated.

i absolutely regret it - the fact i joined in the clique's bullying others and to think about it makes me want to puke in my mouth. and i hope to god these people the clique hurt were ok with their lives.

It also shows the dangers of cliques and that mob mentality and doing what you did for survival and to fit in, which would be for another topic. and being a bullied kid you dont want to be alone, you're likely to go along with bad stuff to stay part of that group.


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## Steve (Apr 9, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Yup.
> 
> when i took part in the behavior i was being a bully. being led by the leaders of this clique which i now recognize was evil. I didnt know it at the time. i didnt know that that group would be defined as a clique (and that 3 years later when we reached high school, grade 10 - we were in grade 7 when we met - that same group turned on me and started bullying me in high school.) I quit high school in grade 10. never graduated.


It's a shame it worked out like that.  As I've said before, I believe that MOST kids who bully aren't evil, chronic bullies, like you.  I don't know what the situation was for you in Grade 7.  One of the points I'm trying to make, though, is that if you had been worked with in Grade 7 to try and help you develop healthier communication skills and better ways to cope with peer pressure and such, your Grade 10 might have been very different.  Impossible to know for sure, but this is what I'm suggesting.





> i absolutely regret it - the fact i joined in the clique's bullying others and to think about it makes me want to puke in my mouth. and i hope to god these people the clique hurt were ok with their lives.
> 
> It also shows the dangers of cliques and that mob mentality and doing what you did for survival and to fit in, which would be for another topic. and being a bullied kid you dont want to be alone, you're likely to go along with bad stuff to stay part of that group.


 
Mob mentality, or more specifically, peer pressure can be good or bad.  Making things that are positive or healthy "cool" for kids to participate in is a great thing.  

Blade, I really appreciate your honesty.  As I've said before, your situation is precisely the sort of experience I was referring to in the original post.  In the OP, I made four main points:


Most kids, both bullies and victims of bullying, grow up into decent human beings.
In a group of bullies, most if not all are simply trying to get along.
Kids who are bullied are as much a part of the equation as kids who bully characterizing the bullied as the victims and the bullies as the villians is counterproductive.
Adult intervention is critical, but we can't insulate kids completely from each other.  IMO, often the best intervention is indirect, teaching kids skills they're lacking rather than direct intervention.


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## Blade96 (Apr 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> It's a shame it worked out like that.  As I've said before, I believe that MOST kids who bully aren't evil, chronic bullies, like you.  I don't know what the situation was for you in Grade 7.  One of the points I'm trying to make, though, is that if you had been worked with in Grade 7 to try and help you develop healthier communication skills and better ways to cope with peer pressure and such, your Grade 10 might have been very different.  Impossible to know for sure, but this is what I'm suggesting.



You could be right. and the bullies desperately needed those skills as well. 




			
				steve said:
			
		

> Mob mentality, or more specifically, peer pressure can be good or bad.  Making things that are positive or healthy "cool" for kids to participate in is a great thing.



Yups.



			
				steve said:
			
		

> Blade, I really appreciate your honesty.  As I've said before, your situation is precisely the sort of experience I was referring to in the original post.  In the OP, I made four main points:
> 
> 
> Most kids, both bullies and victims of bullying, grow up into decent human beings.


True perhaps. I've no idea what the people who bullied me were like when they became adults. Because I've not ever run into them again. (i'm glad of it actually.)





			
				steve said:
			
		

> In a group of bullies, most if not all are simply trying to get along.



might be they want to get along but dont know how.





			
				steve said:
			
		

> Kids who are bullied are as much a part of the equation as kids who bully characterizing the bullied as the victims and the bullies as the villians is counterproductive.



Still don't agree with this 100% especially in my own case. Maybe because my case was more of a severe case where intervention was needed and in your OP you seemed to be talking about your 'ordinary, basic, playground bully' not very violent teen criminals, as in my case.





			
				steve said:
			
		

> Adult intervention is critical, but we can't insulate kids completely from each other.  IMO, often the best intervention is indirect, teaching kids skills they're lacking rather than direct intervention.





 when You say that something about some kids makes them more vulnerable and they are as much a part of it it seems like you mean the ordinary basic playground bully and not some violent vicious teen criminals. You may correct me if I'm wrong. The ones who bullied me were evil, chronic, savages. I have a feeling that's not what you meant. I think you know that for this case there has to be intervention.

Just wondering, what makes you come to the conclusion that often the best intervention is indirect? you said what you were thinking (cool)  but I'd like to know how you came to the conslusions you did.

Glad you like my honesty. I've not told this much of my story to anybody tbh. but something about MT and its people made me trust you all.


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## Stac3y (Apr 9, 2010)

stevebjj said:


> Okay, so here's a question that keeps coming to mind. If you guys try to take an objective look at your lives, can you honestly say that you've never bullied anyone else? Actually, to be more specific, looking at a situation from the other side, even if your intent WASN'T to bully (which I presume is the case for all of us) can you guys honestly say that there is no one in the world walking around who might remember you as a bully?


 
I can honestly say that NO ONE ever thought of me as a bully. Never. I was physically incapable of being one, for one thing; I was the smallest kid in my grade through the end of 6th grade (bar one girl, who technically qualified as a little person). I was only consistently bullied by one girl, but was beaten up by boys on a fairly regular basis, even after I took to biting and scratching when attacked. Teachers did nothing about this, even when I laid out the scenario clearly; eventually I gave up telling them. I was extremely shy, also, and was never good at the verbal nastiness that little girls are known for. Only my family ever really got the sharp side of my tongue. I was not allowed to defend myself if my younger (but bigger) brother physically attacked me because he was the baby of the family, so I was bullied by him, also.

However, I have, through conscious effort, changed my behavior and become a strong, confident woman who is perfectly capable of arguing a point and making my opinions known. Karate has been a large part of this transformation, but so has aging, education, and experience. Part of the reason I put my kids in karate is that it fosters self-confidence--if you know that you can fight if you have to, you're less likely to start something--you don't have anything to prove--and it's easier to walk away from someone else's stupidity.


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## Bill Mattocks (Apr 15, 2010)

I wanted to post this link; mainly because I disagree with just about every word in it.  But it is typical and exemplary of educated people who don't have a lick of common sense.

http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_E_rosen15.1.45edf8a.html


> Rosen: Healthy and productive ways to deal with bullying
> 10:00 PM PDT on Wednesday, April 14, 2010
> 
> By MITCHELL ROSEN
> ...



There is more, and you can click on the link to read it.  As I said, I disagree with just about all of it, from the first erroneous assertion onwards _("What I observe happens when an angry and frustrated child learns to be a capable fighting presence is that the youngster skips the part of learning why they are easily targeted and instead learns that might makes right.")._


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## Bruno@MT (Apr 15, 2010)

> Do we want cadres of bullied and tormented children walking around with black belts in karate?



Yes.

Seriously. It is indeed the responsibility of the adults to raise their kids properly and to keep them from becoming bullies. But it is not unreasonable to teach a bullied kid to stand up for himself / herself.

I've taught my oldest daughter (today she turned 5 ) that fighting is only for self defense. I've also explained that if other kids are bullying her, she is to tell the teacher / supervisor. And I've told her that if that doesn't end the problems, she can kick, hit or shove the other kid and my wife and I will never be angry with her but support her.

I've also hung a heavy punch bag in the garage so that I can teach her how to hit and kick properly without hurting herself. I hope that I can interest her enough that she'll develop these skills as she grows older.


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## Blade96 (Apr 15, 2010)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I wanted to post this link; mainly because I disagree with just about every word in it.  But it is typical and exemplary of educated people who don't have a lick of common sense.
> 
> http://www.pe.com/localnews/stories/PE_News_Local_E_rosen15.1.45edf8a.html
> 
> ...



I agree with you. Mainly because this also happened to me. where there was this girl, a real douche nobody liked (she was this ******* vampire who literally bit peoples necks and abused people)  and she started beating up on me one day on the school bus. Since she wasnt very powerful either in size or in the sense of having supporters, I lost it then and there and when she was beating up on me and hurting me I fought back. I just lost it, jumped on her literally, and beat the living snot out of her. Nobody cared probably because she wasnt liked and they felt it was deserved anyways. I didnt get in trouble. 

I do think people need self defense skills. Not to create vigilantes or for revenge but to help people stand up for themselves. Wish I could have been able to do that against the other bullies who had more power than myself.


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## angrywhitepajamas (May 23, 2010)

I have a question for everyone.  What type of actions would you advocate or suggest in response to socially aggressive bullying? 

        The reason I ask is that often times social bullying is harder to deal with, harder to prove, and in a vague area of disciplinary action.  Also if used often enough a social aggressor will cut off  or deny the posiiblity of any response beyond one of a physical nature for the victim.  My interest in this is to find out what everyone here regards as a valid response to the escalation of this kind of conflict.  I would ask about physical responses, but I think everyone here has sufficiently expressed their opinions. Although more is welcome.


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