# Sandlot Hapkido



## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Folks: 

Since everyone else is putting their thoughts out there for folks to consider I thought I would take a moment and translate what I have been theorizing into something a little more concrete. And from the title of this string you may guess where this is going. 

Across the US today thousands of kids will find an open lot somewhere and without benefit of organization get together, draw-up rules and have a lot of fun (maybe even learn a bit about themselves and each other) for a couple hours after school and before going home for supper. I suggest the same kwan model for Hapkido. 

Contrary to the adult world's value system, the kids in the sandlot do not NEED an organization like Little League, or T-Ball. They do not NEED a fancy park, parents cheering them on and a trophy at the end of the season. They do not NEED medical clearances,  permission slips signed by an adult or or an official registry of standings relative to other sandlot groups. Nobody has to tell them how to workout a batting order, or who plays what position or how to sort out differences over a particular call. They get together and do what they love best---- play ball---- and maybe help each other out along the way, ne? 

I suggest that we can do the very same thing with Hapkido IF we can first let go of the organizational crap that we have been fed by our parents and trust in ourselves and each other. Will we have to decide on some basic thoughts about what we are and what we want to do? Of course, so do those kids on the sandlot. Will there be people who want to have a bigger say because its my ball?  I bet there will be. But we have a telephone (Internet) and we can call each other and ask the equivalent of can Joey cummout n play? Some of us are better at short-stop, and some of us are better at batting and there will always be those kids who will fight like hell not to wind-up being marginalized out in right-field. What we wont have are parents telling us how to have a good time, and what our worth is relative to some  standing or ranking THEY set up. 

Finally, is this a substitute for, or better than the organized Little League of the KHF, IHF, USHF or any other approach? Nope, and its not any worse. Its just an alternative to those venues where people will only do a seminar, teach a class, start a school, publish a book, produce a tape, etc, etc if it is first determined that there is enough money or recognition in it.  FWIW. 

BTW: I STILL NEED HELP with putting together the "sandlot rules" (minimal standards) if anyone is still l interested.

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Drac (Nov 19, 2004)

An excellent post...


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## Disco (Nov 19, 2004)

Yes, I concur with Drac an excellent post. I had no trouble following it.  :supcool:


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Folks:
> 
> Since everyone else is putting their thoughts out there for folks to consider I thought I would take a moment and translate what I have been theorizing into something a little more concrete. And from the title of this string you may guess where this is going.
> 
> ...


Isn't my idea the same thing?

Maybe your leaving out testing board and membership? 

If that's the case why have a standard who's going to follow it and for what reason? 

Just practice anything and get together with anyone! That's what Fabian had a friendship workout what's that solve?


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 19, 2004)

American HKD said:
			
		

> Isn't my idea the same thing?
> 
> Maybe your leaving out testing board and membership?
> 
> ...


I'd love to "come out and play" whenever Bruce or Kevin or anyone else let's me know a game is on.

How about these rules?

1.  Everyone wears a white belt
2.  Before each "game", we let everyone know what the agenda will be.  Or at least what basic skills will be required.  (In case one needs to do fancy breakfalls and is not yet ready).
3.  No overt advertising.  What I mean is, no passing out fliers, etc.  If someone likes your style and decides to ask you if they can join your school, give them contact info privately.  After "playtime" is done, all school owners get together and tell the others about students that have expressed interest in joining their schools.  Talk about any issues at that time.
4.  "Fee's" are the same for everyone.  They don't change depending on which dojang we are training that day.
5.  Finally, we all get together for beers and hot wings after the playtime is done.  (I believe this is most important rule.)

What you think?  
Jeremy


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## Kumbajah (Nov 19, 2004)

Great post Bruce.

Stuart- 
I think the standard is for common ground. To extend Bruce's analogy further - we'll all agree that 1st base is to the right of the batter, 3 strikes constitute an out etc. So when people get together we are speaking a "common language". The standard is NOT for rank. 

A critique of your model -( I realize I'm not even a blip on the radar screen in the Hapkido World but please bear with me) I am content to receive rank and instruction from my instructor but that doesn't mean I don't want to see another perspective and learn from others that have been around for longer. Maybe even contribute some of my own perspective. I don't need to be validated by another instructor. You live right by and train under the Person (Ji Han Jae) that trained my teacher, Bruce's teacher most Masters in the US. You have a great resource why throw out the baby with the bath water. 

If you want to cut out the Koreans in a new American Org. I don't understand why you just don't rally behind Master Whalen. You rallied around him as American Head of the KHF. Give it a new name and there you go. The infrastructure is already in place. 

Jeremy -
 "5. Finally, we all get together for beers and hot wings after the playtime is done. (I believe this is most important rule.)"

Great rule. 

Brian


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> Great post Bruce.
> 
> Stuart-
> I think the standard is for common ground. To extend Bruce's analogy further - we'll all agree that 1st base is to the right of the batter, 3 strikes constitute an out etc. So when people get together we are speaking a "common language". The standard is NOT for rank.
> ...



Hello Brian,

In all defference to Master Whalen, this is not about a single person, but a standard looked over by a board that is non-political, really it has little to do with Korean influence, except many here feel dissenfrancised from training and greading by various groups run by Koreans - this is not to say that all these groups are bad.

Thie idea here is a commonality, a raised bar under which all of us can see eye to eye, in TECHNICAL terms.  This group idea is not to exclude anyone, but create a common palace for us to start.


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## glad2bhere (Nov 19, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

"......I think the standard is for common ground. To extend Bruce's analogy further - we'll all agree that 1st base is to the right of the batter, 3 strikes constitute an out etc. So when people get together we are speaking a "common language". The standard is NOT for rank. ...." 

Right on the money. In this case the "standard" or "minimal standard" or whatever you want to call it is just so that people who are getting out on the mat are essentially all on the same page regarding what we are about. In this way we can focus on enjoying ourselves, giving feedback, sharing other techniques etc, without being worried about whether somebody will suddenly pull some off-the-wall material out of no-where, or have to tell his partner that he can't participate fully because he has never been exposed to the basic concept which the material we happen to be playing with is based. 

What is more, if people know before hand that getting together for a Sandlot Hapkido event means that they have a particular level of understanding, we can probably move to a bit more sophisticated level of technique instead of having to be held back by the least skilled person in the group.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> Great post Bruce.
> 
> Stuart-
> I think the standard is for common ground. To extend Bruce's analogy further - we'll all agree that 1st base is to the right of the batter, 3 strikes constitute an out etc. So when people get together we are speaking a "common language". The standard is NOT for rank.
> ...


That's a fair question.

1. You do need validation from another Instructor up to the point when you are considered a Master of the Art after that who cares. 

2. I train with Master Ji and it's a great expirience I'll never forget it, but there's no unified structure in the SinMoo camp everyone's doing there own thing and that's how Master Ji seems to want it. That may be problematic for all the Sinmoo people after Master Ji is gone time will tell.

3. You'll have to ask Master Whalen why he dosn't form any type of group he may be very happy with his current status and connections to his teacher.
Also he's been throught much more than most of us and may not see the need it may be just the same old thing.


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## Paul B (Nov 19, 2004)

> In this case the "standard" or "minimal standard" or whatever you want to call it is just so that people who are getting out on the mat are essentially all on the same page regarding what we are about.


I just want to interject here that I think a first hand look at everyone would be a good idea. That way you guys would know how us "lower belts" stack up. I know I could use any help I can get!lol I know I have talked to Kevin about training,but due to a tempermental Jeep,I have not had the honor as of yet. That being said,there seems to be quite a few of us within reasonable driving distance from each other,why not have a "first look" session?



> What is more, if people know before hand that getting together for a Sandlot Hapkido event means that they have a particular level of understanding, we can probably move to a bit more sophisticated level of technique instead of having to be held back by the least skilled person in the group.


Again,anyone can say "Oh yeah,I know that one!" when reading it,but maybe our "flavor" differs a bit....so I think the best thing would maybe to get the Sandlot Playbook together,have a first look,and see where it takes us. Sound good? I'll bring a cooler!!(for afterwards,duh!):whip:


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## Kumbajah (Nov 19, 2004)

"You do need validation from another Instructor up to the point when you are considered a Master of the Art after that who cares."

I still don't get this - my case maybe unique - I doubt it, but it may be -My head instructor Kim Jin Pal 9th Dan under Ji Han Jae, Eric Kim 5th Dan Under his Father, are my teachers - when we do dan testing Masters from other dojangs in the federation sit on the board why would I need validation from other instructors ie other orgs.  I am confident in the skills I have learned so far. I don't feel the need to be personally validated by someone I've never trained with. I don't know it all, I realize that but I am comfortable and confident in the little knowledge that I do have. 

With that being said, I still would like to benefit from the knowledge of people in other orgs and contribute if I can, to the knowledge of others. I don't see the necessity of testing under another board and joining another org. I attended one of Master West's seminars in Maryland. I didn't feel that I needed to be approved by Master West to learn from him. I didn't feel that my skills were lacking in comparison to the other attendees. Bruce's model of a common curriculum and standardizing terms has nothing to do with validation of my or any other persons rank. It's just a common skill set and terminology. Judo has a common language and skill set. You don't have to be verified by the Kodokan or the USJF to practice Judo. I can still say O soto gari and people will know what I'm talking about. They can show any variations that they may practice and I can show mine but we have a base term, a jumping off point if you will. 

Brian


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello all,

If you don't need validation, then don't get validated by another group, kind of simple there.

The idea here is a common standard from which training can be assessed and done - without politics or "gain" from one group or another...

I think the bar should be higher than the average for a standards group- so that the rank would have value - but it serves only as a jumping off point for training up to a next level - it would also give peopele something concrete to see as far as the values a group of us place on grading - eg a standard curriculum.


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## American HKD (Nov 19, 2004)

Kumbajah said:
			
		

> "You do need validation from another Instructor up to the point when you are considered a Master of the Art after that who cares."
> 
> I still don't get this - my case maybe unique - I doubt it, but it may be -My head instructor Kim Jin Pal 9th Dan under Ji Han Jae, Eric Kim 5th Dan Under his Father, are my teachers - when we do dan testing Masters from other dojangs in the federation sit on the board why would I need validation from other instructors ie other orgs. I am confident in the skills I have learned so far. I don't feel the need to be personally validated by someone I've never trained with. I don't know it all, I realize that but I am comfortable and confident in the little knowledge that I do have.
> 
> ...


You're lucky have it so good and you always will if you like where you are and how you've been treated.

Not everyone can say they had the same treatment as you.


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## iron_ox (Nov 19, 2004)

Hello Stuart,

But, even if someone loves where they train and under who they train, this is still a good way to find comminality among all the different groups - I know you know that - just a caveat.


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## Kumbajah (Nov 20, 2004)

My point Stuart was - not that I'm Lucky - but everyone has resources available or they wouldn't bother to be on this board. They should use them. No organization is perfect but you should glean what you can and what is lacking we can provide for each other. In conjunction if we as a community get together common terms and skills so we can have a free exchange of information we can benefit the hapkido community as a whole. There is no need to test people or have a new organization to make this work. We just have to agree that we are calling x technique x instead of saying "grab the hand with your thumb pointing down against the back of their hand, middle finger on their wrist, turning the wrist ....." Also there are variations in Hapkido  Curricula but these things we all have in common. So when we get together we can start from there instead of coving the basics ad nauseum. 

Brian


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## glad2bhere (Nov 20, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

I was thinking as I read your post that maybe you and I would have been a good example of how such a thing might have come together. 

You will recall that not very long ago there was an opportunity for me to come visit while you were hosting a testing for students in the variety of Hapkido that you follow. Omitting the bit of information we exchanged about both sharing a common relationship to Ji material, we might not have been to sure that there would have been a goodness-of-fit between what we do. Arguably the bit about Ji took care of that, but lets suppose that it had not. Having a common point of reference in foundational techniques and terms would have been a fine substitution. You would have felt more comfortable having me join folks on the mat. I for my part would have felt more comfortable knowing what was being talked about or referred to because I would hear approximately the same terms.  And had I question about some technique which you might do, but with which I was unfamilar, it would have been a very nice thing to be able to say: " I haven't seen this sort of move before. Is this technique a variation of _______(fill in Min Skill techinque)___?"

I absolutely agree that we do NOT need another organization. What I believe that we need is a "common language" upon which to build a tighter and better defined community.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## American HKD (Nov 20, 2004)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> Dear Folks:
> 
> Since everyone else is putting their thoughts out there for folks to consider I thought I would take a moment and translate what I have been theorizing into something a little more concrete. And from the title of this string you may guess where this is going.
> 
> ...


I'll send you my list when it cleaned up a bit.


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## Kumbajah (Nov 20, 2004)

Bruce I think that is a perfect example. As an aside - I'm hoping that your Vet work will bring to DC sometime in the near future. I have also requested that Master West's Spring seminar as a birthday present from wife  I hope you have a chance to attend. 

I keep throwing out Judo examples as a model for the minimum standard. For terminology sake - a hope you don't choke on this - have you thought of using the Kanji for jujitsu/judo (which are far better established) terms and using the Korean pronunciation. I don't think that this is a far stretch given the DRAJJ/ Hapkido connection. An english translation could be based on those terms. 

Brian


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## glad2bhere (Nov 21, 2004)

Dear Brian: 

"......I keep throwing out Judo examples as a model for the minimum standard. For terminology sake - a hope you don't choke on this - have you thought of using the Kanji for jujitsu/judo (which are far better established) terms and using the Korean pronunciation.........." 

Yes, absolutely. Heres the fly-in-the-ointment for me. 

The Korean MA have a history of being defined in terms of the Japanese arts. I understand how this has come to be, but it really sticks in my craw. The Koreans were using an established martial science a few hundred years before the Japanese and I think deserve to be regarded in their own right. With this in mind I was thinking more along the line of identifying the han-ja for an item and then working backword to Japanese martial science for any corroboration. There is a similar kind of thing going on WARRIOR-SCHOLAR net regarding concepts and Pressure Point/ Strike Point work. Certainly it makes use of Chinese and Korean material but this is in conjunction with what can be borrowed from Japanese tradition. I see this as a bit of an improvement over taking Japanese traditions readily as a foundation and then adding bit of Chinese and Korean material. Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 30, 2004)

So, when is this going to happen?  Where?  I'm excited about sandlot hapkido.


Jeremy


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

I thought people were putting things together for the up-coming International in Jackson. Was I wrong? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Nov 30, 2004)

I dunno.  I thought sandlot hapkido was something you or Kevin would start.

Anyone have a link to the upcoming event?

Thanks,
Jeremy


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## iron_ox (Nov 30, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> I dunno.  I thought sandlot hapkido was something you or Kevin would start.
> 
> Anyone have a link to the upcoming event?
> 
> ...



Hello Jeremy,

I am sure you are saying this in fun, but please know that I have the greatest respect for the fact that Bruce, Rudy, Stuart, Mike, yourself and I among others can debate these issues in a civil way.  It should speak volumes to you about who these men are - and how much we all care for Hapkido.  

I get a laugh out of the guys that act like a discussion is the most evil avenue for real clarification of our points.  We don't agree, but at least we keep the level of repect there, even if our voices go up a tad from time to time.

Now, about that sandlot, the building I just leased was not cleaned for 15 years - the carpet is just a dirt holster, so for at least a few days, I am in the sandlot for real. :ultracool


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## iron_ox (Nov 30, 2004)

Actually, Bruce and I were planning an event but could not agree on whether the sand should be Korean or Japanese in origin. :idunno:


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

Dear Jeremy: 

I appreciate your interest but I would like to see this effort get off on the right foot. By this I mean that I think it would be a mistake to assign the effort to a particular individual or even group of individuals. When kids get together for a sandlot game they all just sorta turn-up and sort things out after they see who they have to work with. I heard Mike (Dunn) talking about Jackson, and I think we need to think in terms of using that as the first opportunity to get together and see what we can get done. People can use the various presentations, and we can either develop something during the day or get together after hours and work on things. The key to this as I see it would be people pitching in rather than just showing up and waiting for someone to "do-me-something".  Did you have a particular agenda that you wanted to advance? Your in-put would be every bit as valuable as anyone elses', right? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## glad2bhere (Nov 30, 2004)

".......Actually, Bruce and I were planning an event but could not agree on whether the sand should be Korean or Japanese in origin. ....." 

I don't suppose we could get someone to dredge-up some stuff off the bottom of the Eastern Sea---- say half-way between Korea and Japan?  

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Dec 1, 2004)

You guys are nuts.  


So what about this link?  Can anyone post a link so I may read more about this upcoming event in Jackson?


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## glad2bhere (Dec 1, 2004)

Jackson, MS, March 11-13, 2005
Master J. R West, 8th Dan, of West's Hapkido Academy, will host the "22nd International Hapkido and Korean Martial Art Seminar". The host Hotel will be the "Holiday Inn North" on the I-55 Frontage Rd. in Jackson. For exact dates and further information, watch this site or contact Master West at (601)-856-8487 or at JRW@hapkido.com .

You can find the info here: http://www.hapkido.com/seminar_map.htm


Courtesy of Doc Clean (Andy). 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Dec 1, 2004)

Thanks Bruce.

So is this event good, hard training?  Or is it mostly demonstrations?  I've never been to a hapkido seminar before.  I'd be interested if it was 4-6 hours of hard training every day.

Jeremy


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## Disco (Dec 1, 2004)

If you go thru the site (link), they will list the seminar breakdown by times and what's being taught.


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## SmellyMonkey (Dec 1, 2004)

Sorry, all I can find is what Bruce posted.


"*Jackson, MS,  March 11-13, 2005*
*Master J. R West, 8th Dan, of West's Hapkido Academy,  will host the "22nd International Hapkido and Korean Martial Art Seminar".   The host Hotel will be the "Holiday Inn North" on the I-55 Frontage Rd. in Jackson.    For exact dates  and further information, watch this site or contact Master West at (601)-856-8487 or at *_*JRW@hapkido.com*_* .  "*

I've clicked around other various links and cannot find the breakdown by time that you mentioned.

Any help?
Thanks,
Jeremy


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## Disco (Dec 1, 2004)

This was last years (March 2004) info. Should be the same for this March.

http://www.hapkido.com/2004_Seminar.htm


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## kwanjang (Dec 2, 2004)

SmellyMonkey said:
			
		

> Thanks Bruce.
> 
> So is this event good, hard training?  Or is it mostly demonstrations?  I've never been to a hapkido seminar before.  I'd be interested if it was 4-6 hours of hard training every day.
> 
> Jeremy



Hello Jeremy:
One demo by the presenters, but it is not too long.  The training is as hard as you want to make it.  Most do, others loaf around (very little of that though), and still others join me in the parking lot during lunch for more than is scheduled lol.  Two years in a row, I did lunch hour "soft" breaking sessions with a LOT of people getting right into it.  Hotel staff thought there was a riot out in their parking lot lol.

Usually there are four rings going, and folks can choose who they wish to train with.  A number of people from the forums are actually presenting, and the sessions are about one hour each.  Because I have to drive back 1500 miles, I leave on Sunday morning.  So, I normally do just two regular sessions, one on Friday evening and one on Saturday.

The schedule might include weapons such as: Dahn Bong with Geoff, Cane with Harold, Knife with Ray, I have done Rope techniques for the past two years (because I can't bring other weapons across the border), and you will find just about every type of empty hand technique training you might want.

You might see people like Geoff Booth, Hal Whalen, Holcombe Thomas, Fabian, Ray Terry, Dennis Mc Henry, Rich Hodder, Jere Hilland, and myself.  JR usually does one long session for black belts only, and a number of his very able Masters also work some great sessions.  Loads of fun


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## glad2bhere (Dec 2, 2004)

Now, if I could just dove-tail on what Rudy shared. 

JR's event is organized along the lines of furnishing a wide assortment of skills and experiences from which the practitioner can cherry-pick those activities which are most interesting to them.  The "sand lot hapkido" approach as I envision it, would be to turn this around 180 degrees. People could submit or openly request to investigate something that they want to work on. I think the "parking lot hapkido" that Rudy provided over lunch was exactly along these lines. A bunch of folks knew something they wanted more information on, and knew Rudy had experience in this. They approached him and there was a "spontaneous" activity. People went away with a very specific itch having been scratched.  FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## SmellyMonkey (Dec 2, 2004)

Ohhhh...sounds like fun.  Thanks Rudy and Bruce.

Is there enough room on the mats for everyone to train at the same time?  Or do some people have to sit out to make room for others to train?

And about sandlot hapkido.   Are we going to use the Jackson seminar to begin planning for other events?  I've spoken about sandlot hapkido to my master, and she would be willing to help out.  We don't have a lot of mat space because the school is small, but I think we could host if the group isn't very big.

Thanks,
Jeremy


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## glad2bhere (Dec 2, 2004)

Regardless of how large the groups are there always seems to be enough space. People just naturally work things out. There is also the matter that many of the groups are presented a couple of times and at different places on the schedule so that if there is a particularly large turn-out for one presentation, people can beg-off and participate in the next presentation of the same material. 

As far as finding a place to get together, thats pretty much a no-brainer. The challenge is whether or not people will participate regularly in planning and then support the activities by attendence. 

As far as mats go I have become pretty adept at packing my mats in the back of the truck and driving to wherever things are happening. Unfolded, each mat is about 5'X10' and I have about 12 of them. Haven't had any problems yet. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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