# The benefits of co-ed grappling



## Lisa

In my school we grapple with the opposite sex and I was wondering how other instructors/ students felt about coed grappling?  Is there a lot of apprehension due to the techniques with triangles and the positions they put you into or is it a comfortable atmosphere and not problems.  How does your instructor deal with new people and their apprehensions, men and women alike.  I would think that it cannot be helped for the majority of the school students are men.  Also, what benefits can you, as a student, see in co-ed grappling.



When I first started grappling I must admit being somewhat inhibited.  I think the reason I kept grappling was the attitude the instructor had.  Basically, we were there to train.  Our atmosphere is friendly and often light-hearted.  There is no room for ego.  From the men in my class I have learned to make sure that they are off balance before doing many of the sweeps, to use their strength against them.  I have had to be able to think two moves ahead and technique has to be perfect for me to be successful because their simple strength can often win me over.  I hate it when a guy uses sheer strength during a sparring match, it leaves both of us learning nothing.


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## jfarnsworth

As I said in another thread; gender to me means nothing (at least to me). I've grappled with females before and it's just another body. Obviously men are generally stronger and bigger than women but that's no reason to no let women work on their techniques. If men didn't do their part on giving a fair enough match then they are giving a bad diservice to the females. If a woman were to get attacked and couldn't defend herself properly then that's a problem. There are far too many ego's out there that would get hurt if a woman were to beat them fairly   .  I say who cares everyone is in the studio to learn.


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## Vadim

In my school we also grapple co-ed. I think overall it is a positive experience. I do sense that some women feel uncomfortable at first grappling with the opposite sex, but we are at the school  to train. Every student trains in a professional manner and horseplay is not tolerated. I never look to dominate a female or any other male who is just starting to grapple because all that will accomplish is making the person fearful and they will not enjoy that aspect of the training. I have seen some females dominate males in grappling and it was quite a scene. 

     I view grappling as a chess game and part of that game is strategy. Regardless of who I am training with I will view them as a fellow student that I can either learn from or teach something to. I say just have fun and train.

-Vadim


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## Blooming Lotus

okay. I'll bite.

I'm not exactly what you'd call insecure and I recently did a couple of weeks training where I was the only female amongst some big and mostly older men( and most experienced and cutest maer  ) in attendance. I had a round or several with each of them on different techs etc and it was amusing to see them hesitate and/ or freeze when I was in their nether regions as I easily executed what I set out to do. ( and alot of these men were 6ft + and approaching or over 40) . It's nearly  endearing as an after thought but to be honest, I don't particulary care what sex they are either, an opponent is an opponent, but if their shock, shyness or embarressment and modesty is going to get them to drop their guard and will open the gap that allows me to take the win, well it's oookay with me  . Lol ..you fight your fight and execute your moves.

See the opponent and not the person is my tip.

Cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## MJS

Well, like anything, the student should know well in advance what he/she are getting themselves into.  Questions about what the class is like should be asked, and the inst. should be able to provide them with a detailed description.  

That being said...I see nothing wrong with a co-ed grappling class.  There are women in my class and they're just as eager to roll as the next person.  I do think that its important, even in a stand up art, for men and women to work together.  The more people you can work with the better on your part, as it'll improve your tech. greatly.  

In addition, for women looking to be able to defend themselves, its good to work with a male on the techs.  Chances are, if a female is going to get attacked, it'll be by a male, not another woman.

Mike


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## getgoin

I haven't ever trained in a school where they seperate the the two. I don't think that I ever would. Women get attacked by men and women, men get attacked by men and women. I don't see a benifit to either group by seperating them.


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## Sarah

Great Thread Lisa.

I train at two Dojo's, and they are a little different.....at my MMA Dojo, the juniors tend to stick to the same sex, this could be due to a couple of things, all the girls (besides from Raewyn and I) are about 14-15 yrs old and quite small, so they tend to stay together at this point. Also we dont do a lot a grappling there just yet, Im sure they will have to mix it up as we go up the ranks! 

Raewyn and I also train in Ju Jistu, so we are a little more confident with our grappling, we roll with each other or if we swap partners we will grab the (older) guys in the class over the young girls or young guys....

At our JJ dojo, we are the only girls...so again we have to train with the boys, but that is fine because they are great, they dont act weird with us like some of our fellow MMA students.

So I guess aside from Raewyn I would choose to roll with senior men over other woman, they are stronger and more of a challenge....I get my butt kicked, but I sure do learn a lot!

Before I started training in JJ I would have stuck to only woman, just lack of confidence, I saw this as holding me back a lot, that is why I started JJ, sort of facing my fear....who would have thought I would have ended up loving it!


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## MA-Caver

Nalia said:
			
		

> In my school we grapple with the opposite sex and I was wondering how other instructors/ students felt about coed grappling?  Is there a lot of apprehension due to the techniques with triangles and the positions they put you into or is it a comfortable atmosphere and not problems.  How does your instructor deal with new people and their apprehensions, men and women alike.  I would think that it cannot be helped for the majority of the school students are men.  Also, what benefits can you, as a student, see in co-ed grappling.
> 
> 
> 
> When I first started grappling I must admit being somewhat inhibited.  I think the reason I kept grappling was the attitude the instructor had.  Basically, we were there to train.  Our atmosphere is friendly and often light-hearted.  There is no room for ego.  From the men in my class I have learned to make sure that they are off balance before doing many of the sweeps, to use their strength against them.  I have had to be able to think two moves ahead and technique has to be perfect for me to be successful because their simple strength can often win me over.  I hate it when a guy uses sheer strength during a sparring match, it leaves both of us learning nothing.


For women I can see the benefits of learning grappling techniques and the reasons are pretty obvious.  If men allow the amount of give (during pratice/training) necessary for a woman to complete a move then she knows what she needs to accomplish it. The right amount of leverage and timing. Timing is very important because an assailant cannot be on balance every time. When you can know and sense the attacker/opponent is off balance is the time to perform whatever move opportunity presents itself and it helps achieve victory. 
Men can learn control in the application of their strength. Knowing when and how much pressure to exert without going over. I have fun grappling with kids and it teaches me to know when to stop before or right at the borderline of pain... so I don't put too much pressure and hurt them. The same goes with adults when in a real-life situation one needs to subdue them to defuse a volitile situation.  
A man utilizing his strength over a weaker opponent (man or woman) is definitely accomplishing nothing in terms of learning/teaching techniques. But *sigh* boys will be boys.   

Another side benefit is when practicing with a significant other (whether if they're in a MA or not) one can learn a new Karma Sutra technique :uhyeah:


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## Lisa

I agree with you MACaver, grappling kids it a lot of fun.  Makes you think more about what you are doing because you usually have thsi crazy little body sprawled across you giving it their all and I/we at our school try very hard to allow the child to submit us if proper technique is being used even though we can muscle out of pretty much everything.  The kids faces are priceless when they make you tap out.  Quite a big accomplishment is felt by them when taking on an adult.


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## Blooming Lotus

Exactly, so really the size or strength of an opponent is what we train for, especially for women who in reality will often be the smaller and need to rely more heavily on their skills. When fighting larger ppl, I like to be more vigilant but don't fear their size, train your skills and techs to defend it. Well trained techniques should just take care of themselves regardless of who's using them or who it's against, best tech and timing wins.
Elite performance is clinical. Execute, execute execute!


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## Aqua4ever

We have co-ed grappling, and mostly it doesn't bother me at all, you just get into the mindset that they're no longer a guy/girl, they;re just a person trying to get either the air out of you or put u in a very uncomfortable position and you have to get out of it. I too hate it when the guys use pure strength, i'm brutally out matched both weight and strength and it makes the excersie pointless since i can't practice anything.  Thankfully they're mostly pretty good.
My $.02


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## KajuMom

Our school doesn't seem to have stated rules regarding co-ed grappling. Grappling is a required part of the kajukenbo curriculum at our school and is practiced in the women's only class and in the "mixed gender" class.

Our classes also often have a "light hearted" tone, many students have been training together for years. My experience has been that higher ranking women feel comfortable participating in the mixed class and most of the men seem fine with it. The women who attend the mixed class regularly are the best women grapplers at the school (but they're also the higher ranks). I think it's likely that some women are not comfortable grappling men and they can always attend the women's class.

If there is more than one woman in a mixed gender class, the instructor pairs them up together regardless of size. Frequently though, there is only one woman in the class. In that case, there is a lot of rotation between partners, which I think is a good thing.

I feel most comfortable grappling with higher ranking men. They seem to feel the least uncomfortable with the situation and have lots of knowledge and tips. Also, by black belt and above, they usually don't feel they have anything to prove, at least the black belts at our school, and can spend more time helping you to get better rather than trying to beat you on strength.

Grappling is by far the most challenging part of my curriculum and I think most of the women I train with feel the same way. But we also know that it is a skill that can possibly save us if we are attacked in "real life."


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## Erik

When I was teaching grappling to women I told them simply that this sport gets personal - we're in guard, we're sweating and occasionally bleeding on each other, and it feels horrible to feel powerless under someone who is stronger, heavier, or simply more capable.  And, quite simply, it hurts.  

 This is the nature of the sport.  

 They will just have to get used to it.

 This wasn't a problem for my group as two of the three were already amature kickboxers, each with more fights than I had.  They had plenty of guts and handled the adjustment very well.

 I think we owe it to our female teammates to train realistically with them.  If they wish to be prepared for a real fight, they will need to be able to deal with stronger and heavier opponents.  It's hard but we owe it to them to be real with them in the same way we would be with a guy in their weightclass.

 That being said, all of us on the mat are there to train ourselves and our buddies as best as we can.  We want out female teammates to be potent and capable, not harrassed.  These are our sisters, moms, aunts and friends.

 I think that showing a little consideration at first, asking them if you're rolling too aggressively or too heavy handedly, and actively hearing their response will overcome a lot of barriers.

 And once there is at least one woman who is "in" the game it will be a lot easier for new women to get going as they'll have a role model who knows how to carry herself already.


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## getgoin

Erik said:
			
		

> When I was teaching grappling to women I told them simply that this sport gets personal - we're in guard, we're sweating and occasionally bleeding on each other, and it feels horrible to feel powerless under someone who is stronger, heavier, or simply more capable. And, quite simply, it hurts.
> 
> This is the nature of the sport.
> 
> They will just have to get used to it.
> 
> This wasn't a problem for my group as two of the three were already amature kickboxers, each with more fights than I had. They had plenty of guts and handled the adjustment very well.
> 
> I think we owe it to our female teammates to train realistically with them. If they wish to be prepared for a real fight, they will need to be able to deal with stronger and heavier opponents. It's hard but we owe it to them to be real with them in the same way we would be with a guy in their weightclass.
> 
> That being said, all of us on the mat are there to train ourselves and our buddies as best as we can. We want out female teammates to be potent and capable, not harrassed. These are our sisters, moms, aunts and friends.
> 
> I think that showing a little consideration at first, asking them if you're rolling too aggressively or too heavy handedly, and actively hearing their response will overcome a lot of barriers.
> 
> And once there is at least one woman who is "in" the game it will be a lot easier for new women to get going as they'll have a role model who knows how to carry herself already.


Well said.


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## Raewyn

Sarah said:
			
		

> Great Thread Lisa.
> 
> I train at two Dojo's, and they are a little different.....at my MMA Dojo, the juniors tend to stick to the same sex, this could be due to a couple of things, all the girls (besides from Raewyn and I) are about 14-15 yrs old and quite small, so they tend to stay together at this point. Also we dont do a lot a grappling there just yet, Im sure they will have to mix it up as we go up the ranks!
> 
> Raewyn and I also train in Ju Jistu, so we are a little more confident with our grappling, we roll with each other or if we swap partners we will grab the (older) guys in the class over the young girls or young guys....
> 
> At our JJ dojo, we are the only girls...so again we have to train with the boys, but that is fine because they are great, they dont act weird with us like some of our fellow MMA students.
> 
> So I guess aside from Raewyn I would choose to roll with senior men over other woman, they are stronger and more of a challenge....I get my butt kicked, but I sure do learn a lot!
> 
> Before I started training in JJ I would have stuck to only woman, just lack of confidence, I saw this as holding me back a lot, that is why I started JJ, sort of facing my fear....who would have thought I would have ended up loving it!


 Great post Sarah.  It's great to be able to grapple with guys.  I've never really had a problem with it, as long as the guys know what their doing, you can learn alot!!!!


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## Lisa

Raisin said:
			
		

> Great post Sarah. It's great to be able to grapple with guys. I've never really had a problem with it, as long as the guys know what their doing, you can learn alot!!!!


 Have to agree with you Raisin.  Sarah brings up very good points.  Actually everyone does.

 I personally enjoy grappling with the men in my school.  They are challenging and a whole lotta fun.  I understand how new women would feel inhibited.  We have one new young female girl who is not quite sure about grappling with the big guys yet.  So far she only grapples with my daughter and the instructor.  Once she is made more comfortable and gets to know the other guys better, I am sure she will relax and come around.  Its all about personal space with people and where their boundaries are.  Some can leap in and some need time to get used to the idea.  As long as they have an open mind, they can truly learn lots from the experience.


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## James Kovacich

I'm all for co-ed grappling  :uhyeah: 

Seriously though, given the numbers of men vs. women in grappling schools (although many women are grappling and competing today) I think it really couldn't be avoided  without limiting our "rotations" with our partners.

I think the real separation should be between the juniors and adults, thats about it unless a student just does not want to roll with the opposite sex.


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## peligro1

Some guy I know at the place I roll at was going through a grappling drill in class last month.  His partner was a female and the whole time I could tell he was trying hard to place and slip his hands and arms into very "convenient" and intimate locations... It was kind of sick but it was also pretty funny.  I asked him about it later and he completely denied it.  I guess some people can't handle working with the opposite sex.


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## Erik

That's lame and childish. 

 While he's messing around and not paying attention to the match, I hope she submits him hard.

 That will teach him.


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## peligro1

I don't remember her submitting him, but she sure did give him alot of trouble until the drill was over...


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## Blooming Lotus

On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that.  As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself.  Even though for her  it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it.  Better the devil you know right?

BL


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## peligro1

That is very true. Good point.


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## Sarah

I would have to disagree with that, a Dojo should be a safe environment and if someone is trying to get a cheep feel it is unacceptable. Training for real life situations is one thing, we play games where two guys will try and tie our hands and feet and its all good fun but quite relevant to real life, but for all that guy knew this girl could have had past experiences with abuse! 

If it is understood between the two parties that he is going to be sleazy that is fine, but crossing the line for his own thrills in my opinion is just not on, and it is an abuse of trust that should exist between training partners.





			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that. As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself. Even though for her it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it. Better the devil you know right?
> 
> BL


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## James Kovacich

Sarah said:
			
		

> I would have to disagree with that, a Dojo should be a safe environment and if someone is trying to get a cheep feel it is unacceptable. Training for real life situations is one thing, we play games where two guys will try and tie our hands and feet and its all good fun but quite relevant to real life, but for all that guy knew this girl could have had past experiences with abuse!
> 
> If it is understood between the two parties that he is going to be sleazy that is fine, but crossing the line for his own thrills in my opinion is just not on, and it is an abuse of trust that should exist between training partners.


You're so right! The head instructor needs to be on top of that stuff. I don't don't like men pairing up with little boys either. It's one thing when everyone knows each other well but differant when they are not friends. Standup is OK but grappling, the kids need to be protected.


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## TigerWoman

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that.  As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself.  Even though for her  it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it.  Better the devil you know right?
> 
> BL



I disagree with that too.  One too many slips and the knee or foot or hand would "accidently" go to his groin in not a friendly way if that happened to me.  But some women would feel betrayed in a supposedly friendly environment, leave, and not look back.  And there is a wide mix of women in-between too, but there would be a guaranteed reaction.  The dojang is not the place for a convenient feel. TW


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## yariman

Some are uncomfortable with it.  Some are jelous when their partner embrases someone that way in training.

Some people take advantage and feel more than they should.

But, for those who are smaller, it can help build confidence and allow safe discovery of what is and is not doable for them.


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## Lisa

peligro1 said:
			
		

> Some guy I know at the place I roll at was going through a grappling drill in class last month. His partner was a female and the whole time I could tell he was trying hard to place and slip his hands and arms into very "convenient" and intimate locations... It was kind of sick but it was also pretty funny. I asked him about it later and he completely denied it. I guess some people can't handle working with the opposite sex.


Okay, how exactly is that funny?  It was stupid and absolutely appalling, plain and simple and hopefully she went the the instructor and had his *** removed from the school.  :btg: 



			
				BloomingLotus said:
			
		

> On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that. As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself. Even though for her it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it. Better the devil you know right?


Huh?  Exposing her to that without her consent even on the mat is just as much a crime as someone doing it on in the street. Copping a feel beit on a bus, train or in the dojo does no female student any good and should not be tolerated by the school.  Here is the thing... they weren't training for a "real life situation" they were simply rolling.  It leaves the victem wondering what the hell they did to deserve it and causes internal turmoil.  Take stock and reflect?  The only thing that student should take stock and reflect upon is her foot connecting to his groin and the shades of purple that jerk turned.

nuff said, rant over.


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## Sarah

That was well said Nalia, this subject can be a little close to home for a lot of woman, if we can not feel safe training in our Dojo where can we feel safe.....it has been said be a lot that when we are rolling we are both MA'ist training together not male or female. 

I am totally fine when my training partners grab me in an awkward place because I know it is not meant as anything sexual and I _*trust*_ them.....we should not be put in a situation where we are always aware of how often our partners hands are slipping in our Gi....that is no way to learn, all it will do is make us more self conscious not better grapplers.




			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> Okay, how exactly is that funny? It was stupid and absolutely appalling, plain and simple and hopefully she went the the instructor and had his *** removed from the school. :btg:
> 
> 
> Huh? Exposing her to that without her consent even on the mat is just as much a crime as someone doing it on in the street. Copping a feel beit on a bus, train or in the dojo does no female student any good and should not be tolerated by the school. Here is the thing... they weren't training for a "real life situation" they were simply rolling. It leaves the victem wondering what the hell they did to deserve it and causes internal turmoil. Take stock and reflect? The only thing that student should take stock and reflect upon is her foot connecting to his groin and the shades of purple that jerk turned.
> 
> nuff said, rant over.


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## Blooming Lotus

Of course it _should_ be safe, but fact is that it wasn't. Inappropriate is inappropriate and uninvited physically sexual contact is exactly that. And meet it in the kwoon, at work or what have you, it is what it is.   Thankfully the environment here was somewhat protected and while we're learning techniques for defence, well there's something to apply them to if _anything_ is worthy of these types of skills. If she was caught off guard, and didn't have _enough _skill to fend it off, that's just something to learn to protect against in future. Being caught off guard is a bugger!  Things happen and as much I don't condone his actions, (and I'm sorry kids) , but you can sit around crying about it, or you can be proactive in your safety and make sure next time you encounter it, you know how to best handle it. I have had _alot_ of experience like this, and teach my daughter for this exact reason.  It is part of our world and I am often off travelling by myself, but if I hadn't considered it earlier ( afdter meeting on it a lesser scale earlier) , as soon as awareness of need presented itself, who knows how the more serious situations later would have turned out?? It's something women should consider and as a mommy, a sister , and a woman and so forth, I stand by that comment emphatically. Don't get sad, get prepared for next time ( and then hope nxt time doesn't come).

Blooming Lotus


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## TigerWoman

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Of course it _should_ be safe, but fact is that it wasn't. Inappropriate is inappropriate and uninvited physically sexual contact is exactly that. And meet it in the kwoon, at work or what have you, it is what it is.   Thankfully the environment here was somewhat protected and while we're learning techniques for defence, well there's something to apply them to if _anything_ is worthy of these types of skills. If she was caught off guard, and didn't have _enough _skill to fend it off, that's just something to learn to protect against in future.
> Blooming Lotus



We're not kids, nor yours.  The point is that this is NOT the normal environment but a controlled one.  If the instructor has condoned it and said that okay some of the women are going to get felt up today what would have happened?  The women trusted the instructor and the students to be trustworthy or the class/learning wouldn't have happened. This is not a attack to learn against. It is a failure of trust. I previously stated my response to such an action. And the guy's fanny should have been booted out the door as well. No future about it. TW


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## Blooming Lotus

I don't think you realise that I'm actually agreeing with you here, but next time could be anywhere at all.  There are many kids on these boards Tigerwoman, and that is who I addressed that to.  I'm talking about actions _we_ can take ourselves.


BL


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## TigerWoman

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> I don't think you realise that I'm actually agreeing with you here, but next time could be anywhere at all.  There are many kids on these boards Tigerwoman, and that is who I addressed that to.  I'm talking about actions _we_ can take ourselves.
> 
> BL



Actually we were talking about a woman being inappropriately touched while grappling by a fellow man student and women that disagreed with your post.   This, I repeat is not about self defense. And its certainly not a benefit of co-ed grappling so we should let others get on with the topic.TW


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## getgoin

I haven't been grappling that long, only a few of years. In that time I have been touched and been in positions that would be very degrading if not in the context of grappling. The acts of a person choosing to behave in that manner are grounds for dismissal, I agree with that. Matter of fact I would be the first one to take himout back to the shed and teach him the finer points of being a man.

I'm not trying to get off topic or anything else but I have a question, totally fiction, no real people were harmed during writing. Now seeing that there is alot of personal contact within the grappling game, it must be made sure that the person is actually acting badly. Not just one persons preception of what took place, whether it be a spectator or a player. A new female student comes to her male instructor while in the office and say's that "he stuck his hand through my thighs and grabbed the back of my leg, I feel that I was violated" now that instructor has to make a decision. He wasn't there to see it happen, the phone rang and he went to answer it. He tells her to wait in his office and he will find out what went on. People in the class say they (men and women) were watching and nothing happened. Does the male teacher tell her she's mistaken, she wasn't violated or kick the guy out of school? Is she being hypersensitive or have the other members of the school been numbed to the touch?


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## MJS

Accidental contact is one thing, but intentional is wrong and should be addressed by the inst.  Considering that we live in a sue happy world, if is not addressed, it could mean the difference between the school doors staying open or being shut.

Grappling is a very close contact activity, so again, accidents happen, but it appears this was not an accident.

Mike


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## Lisa

TigerWoman said:
			
		

> Actually we were talking about a woman being inappropriately touched while grappling by a fellow man student and women that disagreed with your post. This, I repeat is not about self defense. And its certainly not a benefit of co-ed grappling so we should let others get on with the topic.TW


 Well said TW. :asian:


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## peligro1

Getgoin, I don't think she was violated intentionally.  It sounds like her partner was just trying to get a good grip, not a cheap feel.  Grappling involves close personal contact (someone else's sweat dripping down onto you, placing someone's arm near your groin, etc.) and at times you may be uncomfortable.  That's just part of the game.


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## OUMoose

In the past, I have freerolled with many female students.  I'm a pretty big guy, and I've actually been approached more than once to freeroll with them, so they can see what it's like.  As others have stated, though, it's a matter of trust.  We were all friends, and they knew I wasn't going to attempt to take advantage of them or anything.  Heck, I've been tapped out on a couple of occasions by ladies 1/2 my size.  We had a chuckle about it and both learned something.


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## Shizen Shigoku

I checked out a self-defense course at my university, and for one of the techniques I was paired with a female. The attack was a torso grab from behind (bear hug type, pinning the arms to the body). This female was quite well-endowed, so I was nervous about 'getting too close for comfort' - I didn't want to appear sleazy - but she was so big in that area, that it would be hard not to touch them.

So, anyway, trying to be P.C. (which I'm normally against), I grabbed her high around the upper chest and shoulders. She got irritated and said, "That is not realistic, you're going to have to grab me lower," then *she* took my hands and placed them squarely (or rather roundly) on her bosom, and told me to squeeze tightly. 

It was a benefit for me for obvious reasons  but it was also a benefit for her - she had enough sense to know that if she is going to practice proper technique, there has to be a proper attack to respond to.

Intimate contact really is unavoidable in a grappling situation, but I agree that - just to make everyone more comfortable - there has to be trust and consent involved.


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## James Kovacich

Shizen Shigoku said:
			
		

> I checked out a self-defense course at my university, and for one of the techniques I was paired with a female. The attack was a torso grab from behind (bear hug type, pinning the arms to the body). This female was quite well-endowed, so I was nervous about 'getting too close for comfort' - I didn't want to appear sleazy - but she was so big in that area, that it would be hard not to touch them.
> 
> So, anyway, trying to be P.C. (which I'm normally against), I grabbed her high around the upper chest and shoulders. She got irritated and said, "That is not realistic, you're going to have to grab me lower," then *she* took my hands and placed them squarely (or rather roundly) on her bosom, and told me to squeeze tightly.
> 
> It was a benefit for me for obvious reasons  but it was also a benefit for her - she had enough sense to know that if she is going to practice proper technique, there has to be a proper attack to respond to.
> 
> Intimate contact really is unavoidable in a grappling situation, but I agree that - just to make everyone more comfortable - there has to be trust and consent involved.


I think that she may have been "that 1 in a million" that would actually di that. But ground grappling is a much more closer game that puts 2 bodies in positions that for some can and will be uncomfortable. 

As to asnswering (GET GOINS question) what an instructor should do if nobody saw anything. I think he needs to watch much more attentively and not let things like that happen.


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## Sarah

I think most of us would agree that trust between training partners is really important. That is why I would choose to roll with Senior Men over the lower ranks, like someone has already said most of them dont act like they have anything to prove, where as younger and lower ranked guys often still have a lot of ego coming in to it.....of course this is just from my experience.

The best roll's I have had have been with BB Men and my regular partner Raewyn whom I trust immensely. I think it is interesting to note that I get grabbed more by Raewyn than I do by the BB guys, its more that we are inexperienced and a little bit clumsy.


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## Feisty Mouse

Men and women both come to the training studio with different kinds of "baggage" and life experiences.

It is not conducive to good training - nor is it good manners, or respectful - for people to openly _fondle_ training partners, rather than grapple (during the course of which lots of contact will happen, of course).  

Especially when people are beginning their training, they are not given "streets" or "real-life" scenarios.  And someone randomly grabbing for a breast is not "role-playing" - it's taking advantage of the trust that training partners implicitly give to one another in the training situation.

If a studio was run with that attitude, they would certainly drive away any women that came there to train.  Women deal with enough patronizing, staring-at-boobs, and whatnot throughout the day anyways.

If an experienced female MAer was in this situation where it was clear someone was trying to cop a feel, rather than training, I would hope she would say, quite loudly and clearly, "I hope you weren't trying to grab my breast," and then, ideally, pin the sucker.


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## shesulsa

I like that last part, Feisty!  Fake shock, they'll peel off, then pin 'em!!!

 There are several good points here and not all from one point of view.

 At the risk of ticking off some dear female friends on this board, a realistic attack would involve uncomfortable contact.  If any female can be okay with approaching this level of training in a trusted environment, I think she should go for it.

 THAT SAID: _ It is up to the instructor to have discussion with all students prior to coed grappling training regarding appropriate contact, what will and will not be tolerated, the fact that some direct and indirect contact may indeed happen inadvertently, and repeat offenses will not be tolerated.
_
 The limits need to be firmly set in the very beginning before any contact is made with anybody - even before same-gendered matches.  Every student must be clear and the rules must be strictly enforced and closely watched.

 If a male student is having such a hard time finding a hold and others see it, the match should be stopped immediately and instruction given - this is assuming, of course, that he truly had no ill intentions.  If he's not a bumbling beginner and this was intentional, he should be booted immediately.

 :asian:


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## FUZZYJ692000

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> On a serious note with that, it's proabably a good thing he exposed her to that.  As a female, in the real world, a skilled opponent getting physically sleazy is something you certainly might encounter in your travels, and I have several times mysaelf in past several months myself.  Even though for her  it was in safe and controlled environment, if she takes stock and reflects on that, she'll likely get alot out of it.  Better the devil you know right?
> 
> BL



i'd have got also disagree on this.  i'm sorry but there is a guy in our class that i refuse to grapple with because i know he's getting his jollies grappling with the females.  and for an instructor to do this i'm sorry it's totally unacceptable behavior.  now if it is an accident that oops i didn't mean to grab your chest or what not that is one thing but to do it because you want to "enjoy" yourself i'm sorry i don't care who you are it's unacceptible and inappropriate.  especially if you're the teacher or instructor.  basically in other words what i got is that it's okay because it is in a "safe" environment. that would be like saying it's okay for teachers at schools to touch students in the same manner because it's okay it's in a "controled" environment.  to me that's just the instructor on a power trip and abusing his rights as an instructor and should be ashamed of his or her behavior.  there is a difference between preparing for reality and being fondled or felt up on i'm sorry.  i love grappling with the guys in my studio and like i said i'll grapple all of them but one, and no he can't pin me but he makes me feel uncomfortable because of his own behaviors.  i've said many of times before i'd rather grapple the guys than the girls cause i am gonna get a better training session with someone who out weighs me and can over power me.  but lord knows that they would never dream of using this time as a time to take care of their hormones.  and for this i'm happy that i do have the RESPECTFUL guys that we do have in our studio  :asian:


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## MJS

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Of course it _should_ be safe, but fact is that it wasn't. Inappropriate is inappropriate and uninvited physically sexual contact is exactly that. And meet it in the kwoon, at work or what have you, it is what it is.   Thankfully the environment here was somewhat protected and while we're learning techniques for defence, well there's something to apply them to if _anything_ is worthy of these types of skills. If she was caught off guard, and didn't have _enough _skill to fend it off, that's just something to learn to protect against in future. Being caught off guard is a bugger!  Things happen and as much I don't condone his actions, (and I'm sorry kids) , but you can sit around crying about it, or you can be proactive in your safety and make sure next time you encounter it, you know how to best handle it. I have had _alot_ of experience like this, and teach my daughter for this exact reason.  It is part of our world and I am often off travelling by myself, but if I hadn't considered it earlier ( afdter meeting on it a lesser scale earlier) , as soon as awareness of need presented itself, who knows how the more serious situations later would have turned out?? It's something women should consider and as a mommy, a sister , and a woman and so forth, I stand by that comment emphatically. Don't get sad, get prepared for next time ( and then hope nxt time doesn't come).
> 
> Blooming Lotus



I'm afraid the point is still being missed here.  This was a grappling class, not a rape prevention class.  The conduct of the male student was not suited for that time.  It was a benefit to him, for a cheap thrill, not a benefit to her.  

There are times and places for everything, and this certainly was not the time.  Of course there is going to be contact in grappling, but again, this was not common contact.  

Mike


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## shesulsa

MJS said:
			
		

> I'm afraid the point is still being missed here. This was a grappling class, not a rape prevention class. The conduct of the male student was not suited for that time. It was a benefit to him, for a cheap thrill, not a benefit to her.


 Good point!  Not all women some to martial arts for self-defense and if the class itself is not concentrated upon that ideal, this is sport and you are correct.


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## Lisa

Okay, back on track...

 Some great things I have learned co-ed grappling with the guys in my class.  We have on HUGE guy, he has been missing for the past couple of weeks which is really too bad cause he is a lot of fun to roll with.  When I say huge, I mean huge!  6'4, 260 pounds, almost as big as err... Bignick! whom I think I read somewhere is taller. (my apologies nick if I am wrong)

 Anyways....

 Changing levels and shooting for this man's leg to do a take down is like your shoulder hitting a brick wall. Try to put him in a triangle choke when your short little legs can't wrap around his neck and shoulder area is a definite challeng and then all he does is stand up and I am dangling there like one of the kids.  He is the only one in the class that picks me up and makes me feel like a rag doll.  I love rolling with him.  He is challenging, not only because of size and strength but because of skill as well.  He has a great sense of humor and wonderful disposition.  He is careful not to squish cause he wants to learn too and realises he can use all the strength he wants and probably would win, but what would the fun in that be?  He would rather roll with all of us, learn and enjoy.  Okay... maybe he gets a kick out of hanging me from around his neck once in a while when I attempt a triangle choke, but hey, its all in good fun and he is fun to spar.


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## Blooming Lotus

FUZZYJ692000 said:
			
		

> i'd have got also disagree on this. i'm sorry but there is a guy in our class that i refuse to grapple with because i know he's getting his jollies grappling with the females. and for an instructor to do this i'm sorry it's totally unacceptable behavior. now if it is an accident that oops i didn't mean to grab your chest or what not that is one thing but to do it because you want to "enjoy" yourself i'm sorry i don't care who you are it's unacceptible and inappropriate. especially if you're the teacher or instructor. basically in other words what i got is that it's okay because it is in a "safe" environment. that would be like saying it's okay for teachers at schools to touch students in the same manner because it's okay it's in a "controled" environment. to me that's just the instructor on a power trip and abusing his rights as an instructor and should be ashamed of his or her behavior. there is a difference between preparing for reality and being fondled or felt up on i'm sorry. i love grappling with the guys in my studio and like i said i'll grapple all of them but one, and no he can't pin me but he makes me feel uncomfortable because of his own behaviors. i've said many of times before i'd rather grapple the guys than the girls cause i am gonna get a better training session with someone who out weighs me and can over power me. but lord knows that they would never dream of using this time as a time to take care of their hormones. and for this i'm happy that i do have the RESPECTFUL guys that we do have in our studio :asian:


I don't really care, but you're misunderstanding me here. To defend sexual attacks is often in a different capacity to defending violence and often calls for different techs and apps to be considered. To be aware that you have the need to defend differently, and the having the knowledge and awareness to consider how to deal with that is ( considering no real harm was done here and hopefully shifu will deal it or you have a choice to leave and remove yourself from the situation altogether ) a great growth experience as an maer. I'm glad for mine anyway. These sorts of violations can hit us in the most unlikely venues. Best prepared than crying foul. ( btw : I have seen some situations of this nature that would make your skin crawl........take the tip or don't.........it's a potentially violent world and I for one like to know what I'm facing and how I'm dealing with it. Cotton wool serves only for softness, but it doesn't stop the injury now does it).  Btw : shifus not always going to be there to save you, so what then????  Learn the defence or cop the fact you cant defend it .

Blooming Lotus


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## MJS

First off, lets try to keep the discussion friendly please.

As for the topic...while it is good to be prepared, we still need to keep in mind that this was not a rape prevention class or an actual assault, but in fact a grappling class!  I, as well as many of my training partners have rolled with females and we've been able to keep our hands in the proper places, so as to not offend any of them.  This guy obviously can't!

Now, maybe this girl should have grabbed onto the other guys fingers, and broke them, but she didnt because again, this was a grappling class.  Should she have poked him in the eyes?  Again, both are acceptable for a rape situation, but not the grappling class.

As for the inst....its his/her responsibility to keep a safe environment.  The student should not have to leave the school, because some jerk can't keep his hands to himself.  Sexual harrassment is illegal..PERIOD!!  If its a matter of a law suit or getting rid of a problem student, I'd get rid of the problem student.

We're forgetting what the objective of the class is here.

Mike


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## shesulsa

Blooming Lotus, your examples and argument do, in my opinion, lean towards a self-defense course of training - and there's nothing wrong with that.  You talk hard-core and if that's how you walk, too, righteous!

 However, it appears the incident in question does lean more towards inappropriate contact in a sport setting.

 I am aware of certain women for whom getting on the mat at all, let alone with a guy is a monumental task and it takes phenomenal instructors and understanding classmates to make that a successful venture for such a person.  This would be an excellent example of a situation where this repeated contact was not appropriate.  

 I was hoping someone with this background (kinda like me, but other than me) would post this, but in support of those who don't care to argue this private point, there it is.

 Regards,

 Georgia


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## MA-Caver

Having read the thread a bit more carefully, all I can say is this. Blooming is confusing self-defense arts with martial arts. The two while having their similarities are radically different in concept and purpose. 
Martial arts is the discovery of the self as well as defense and attack. 
Self-defense is just that. The learning of techniques that are designed to ward off an attack to aid in the escape. 
Grappling is an art form in unto itself and should not be confused with the art of "Self-defense" taught to women (and men) in order to avoid an assault, sexual or otherwise. 
When in a formal grappling class-room be it Judo, JJ, BJJ, MMA or whatever both parties are there to learn the techniques related to grappling. A man who partners with a woman should keep his mind focus on the techniques and not on the contact itself. Any man groping a woman (without her consent) is wrong and has no excuse what-so-ever. A woman has the right to her body at all times and allows contact on her terms. Accidental contacts must be acknowledged and control (on the man's part...even the woman) must be enacted at all times during practice/training.  
A woman *should not* submit to this kind of inappropriate contact at anytime from either sex just for the sake that it may happen in real life and thus needs to use that contact as a means to learn. It is demeaning and debased to the woman who is being groped while trying to learn/practice/train in a legitimate Martial Art, (she shouldn't be groped in a self-defense class either by the way) and the guy is wanting to get a handful of breast, buttock or whatever. The man isn't wanting to learn a Martial art, the woman is. The result is counter-productive because the woman now has to focus on self-defense. 
Blooming, in my opinion, is reacting to past experiences of previous assaults on her person and her comments/posts are reflecting internalizations of these assaults. Initally she responded well, but previous assault victims tend to have bits of flashbacks and repression of delayed emotional reactions and they have manifested in her most recent posts. This, should not be held wholly accountable to her. To me she's just venting subconciously. 
The thread has moved itself away from it's primary focus and question. We need to stay with the topic at hand. 
My two bits.


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## FUZZYJ692000

MACaver said:
			
		

> Having read the thread a bit more carefully, all I can say is this. Blooming is confusing self-defense arts with martial arts. The two while having their similarities are radically different in concept and purpose.
> Martial arts is the discovery of the self as well as defense and attack.
> Self-defense is just that. The learning of techniques that are designed to ward off an attack to aid in the escape.
> Grappling is an art form in unto itself and should not be confused with the art of "Self-defense" taught to women (and men) in order to avoid an assault, sexual or otherwise.
> When in a formal grappling class-room be it Judo, JJ, BJJ, MMA or whatever both parties are there to learn the techniques related to grappling. A man who partners with a woman should keep his mind focus on the techniques and not on the contact itself. Any man groping a woman (without her consent) is wrong and has no excuse what-so-ever. A woman has the right to her body at all times and allows contact on her terms. Accidental contacts must be acknowledged and control (on the man's part...even the woman) must be enacted at all times during practice/training.
> A woman *should not* submit to this kind of inappropriate contact at anytime from either sex just for the sake that it may happen in real life and thus needs to use that contact as a means to learn. It is demeaning and debased to the woman who is being groped while trying to learn/practice/train in a legitimate Martial Art, (she shouldn't be groped in a self-defense class either by the way) and the guy is wanting to get a handful of breast, buttock or whatever. The man isn't wanting to learn a Martial art, the woman is. The result is counter-productive because the woman now has to focus on self-defense.



Well said and on that note...back to the topic.  I think that you'd probably have to have co-ed grappling for the mere fact that many martial arts are male dominate.  a friend and i were talking and when she was still into competing there weren't any females in her division for her to grapple so she had to grapple the guys.  Like i said i'd rather grapple the guys any day, except with the exception of tess and her daughter is now wanting to come in for a grappling match...mind she she'd be like grappling a guy for me...she's close to 6 ft and she loves to lift weights...i'm scared   but it is more practice for a woman to grapple with guys because she can actually see how much they can over power her.


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## still learning

Hello, My son now 15 years old just stared his first year in High School wrestling, at practice in school all the girls co-ed wrestle for practice,about 30 kids , 8 girls, you can see some of the boys feel alittle uncomfortable untill the they going, then it just practice drills. Everyone learns. Is this right or wrong for high school kids? I am not to sure how I feel about it? 

 We do grappling at Kempo practice and sometimes need women partners and it does feel a little uncomfortable sometimes. Not use to it yet. 

  The womem problerly gets the most benifits.....Aloha


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## arnisandyz

There has to be a certain amount of trust between participants. trust on the females part that male classmate will play nice and also trust on the males part that  the female won't cry wolf should a inadvertant grab or touch happen. When I used to teach i would have husband-wife or father-daughter, or brother-sister work together when possible. I would also be careful when working with a female student that other students were involved watching the techniques and rotating out.


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## James Kovacich

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> When I used to teach i would have husband-wife or father-daughter, or brother-sister work together when possible. I would also be careful when working with a female student that other students were involved watching the techniques and rotating out.



Smart on your part!


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## arnisandyz

akja said:
			
		

> Smart on your part!



Thanks, the majority of replies to this thread have to do with the female being vunerable to unappropriate behavior, but  I just wanted to remind everyone that in todays world of lawsuits and people playing the system, you may find yourself trying to defend something you didn't even do. Having those extra set of eyes goes a long way. I have also had people videotape (with all parties consent) so we could review technique, but that could also be used in court, or even better, deter unappropiate behavior from even happening.


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## Feisty Mouse

still learning said:
			
		

> Hello, My son now 15 years old just stared his first year in High School wrestling, at practice in school all the girls co-ed wrestle for practice,about 30 kids , 8 girls, you can see some of the boys feel alittle uncomfortable untill the they going, then it just practice drills. Everyone learns. Is this right or wrong for high school kids? I am not to sure how I feel about it?
> 
> We do grappling at Kempo practice and sometimes need women partners and it does feel a little uncomfortable sometimes. Not use to it yet.
> 
> The womem problerly gets the most benifits.....Aloha


I think it's always uncomfortable at first for both men and women (and boys and girls)... I think it took me several classes, in an environment I already felt very comfortable in, to relax about the high contact levels.

I think it's fine for HS students - as long as the instructor(s) handles the class and sets a mature, "we're here to train" tone.  (In the past I've met MA folks and gym teachers who get pretty juvenile about contact, which is not a big deal in an experienced class, but would wreak havoc on a high school grappling class.)


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## shesulsa

One might also consider having two sets of eyes watching carefully - one male, one female when a mixed pair are on.


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## Lisa

Setting the tone for training is one of the most important things for successful co-ed grappling.  Highschool students could get a bit immature about the whole thing but if the instructor has the right attitude about it, hopefully it will diminish or abolish any problems.  It is all about how you approach things.


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## James Kovacich

arnisandyz said:
			
		

> Thanks, the majority of replies to this thread have to do with the female being vunerable to unappropriate behavior, but  I just wanted to remind everyone that in todays world of lawsuits and people playing the system, you may find yourself trying to defend something you didn't even do. Having those extra set of eyes goes a long way. I have also had people videotape (with all parties consent) so we could review technique, but that could also be used in court, or even better, deter unappropiate behavior from even happening.


 That is part of the reason I left a particular BJJ instructor. If there was an odd number of students in attendance a grown man may end up training (not rotating) with a kid and their parents are right there. 

The approriate thing would of been for "the instructor" to have one of the adult

We pay to much money to spend your mat time with a 10 year old. Thats my opinion but at todays rates I think it is justified. Now if it was a rare occsion it would not of been so bad. 

Back to your original post. My wife and duaghter are always close by.


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## Lisa

akja said:
			
		

> That is part of the reason I left a particular BJJ instructor. If there was an odd number of students in attendance a grown man may end up training (not rotating) with a kid and their parents are right there.
> 
> The approriate thing would of been for "the instructor" to have one of the adult groups rotate between 3 adult students and the kids could rotate 3 also. We pay to much money to spend you mat time with a 10 year old. Thats my opinion but at todays rates I think it is justified.
> 
> Back to your original post. My wife and duaghter are always close by.


 Setting an age limit between the classes is also a good idea.  Where I train they have to be at least 13 to join the adult class, they don't necessarily have to at 13 but the option is there and it is up to them to make that shift.  When my daughter turned 13 she wanted to join the adult class immediately.  She had outgrown the children's class and needed more challenge.  She never felt uncomfortable, however this was probably due to the fact that she already knew all the adults in the school.  It would probably be different for a new student who does not know the adults in the class.  In those cases, slow integration into co-ed grappling may be necessary depending on the child, beit a boy or a girl.


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## James Kovacich

Nalia said:
			
		

> Setting an age limit between the classes is also a good idea.  Where I train they have to be at least 13 to join the adult class, they don't necessarily have to at 13 but the option is there and it is up to them to make that shift.  When my daughter turned 13 she wanted to join the adult class immediately.  She had outgrown the children's class and needed more challenge.  She never felt uncomfortable, however this was probably due to the fact that she already knew all the adults in the school.  It would probably be different for a new student who does not know the adults in the class.  In those cases, slow integration into co-ed grappling may be necessary depending on the child, beit a boy or a girl.


You're more trusting than me. My daughter is not going to roll with my (men)students. I teach just abou anyone. I try to change them, mold them to be better people. I guess that tells you what kind of students I have but at least I try.


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## Lisa

akja said:
			
		

> You're more trusting than me. My daughter is not going to roll with my (men)students. I teach just abou anyone. I try to change them, mold them to be better people. I guess that tells you what kind of students I have but at least I try.


 Perhaps the more trusting part is true Akja, but I also roll with these men.  They are my training partners and in some cases my friends.  My trust in them is sound, therefore, my trust with them rolling with my daughter is also sound.  We have been lucky with our training partners in that they are good, kind considerate people who are there to train and have fun.  Good for you for trying to help your students and good for you for being a caring father.


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## James Kovacich

Nalia said:
			
		

> Perhaps the more trusting part is true Akja, but I also roll with these men.  They are my training partners and in some cases my friends.  My trust in them is sound, therefore, my trust with them rolling with my daughter is also sound.  We have been lucky with our training partners in that they are good, kind considerate people who are there to train and have fun.  Good for you for trying to help your students and good for you for being a caring father.


Thank you! :asian:


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## Gray Phoenix

Other than taking notice of a persons gender, it doesnt seem to matter who is chucking me to the floor.


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## arnisador

We do co-ed rolling at the BJJ school I attend, but most of the time women are paired with women and men with men.


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## Isrephael

In our school, we have a tremendously talented and dedicated female student.  She trains AND competes in NHB/MMA.  In her last tournament, she not only challenged the entire female ladder and won, but then challenged the entire male ladder... AND WON.  She is a wonderful partner to work with, and I have nothing but the deepest respect for her.




			
				Nalia said:
			
		

> I hate it when a guy uses sheer strength during a sparring match, it leaves both of us learning nothing.



This can apply not just to gender cross-overs, but among anyone who is bigger/stronger/more experienced.  If your partner isn't letting you work techniques, he/she is a bad partner.  Our instructor is quite good at teaching us to be good partners: to remove the ego from it... to not worry about "winning", but to concentrate on "learning".
I can out-size and out-muscle most of the people at my school.  And, of course, there are those who can out-experience/out-technique me.  It is incumbent to both sides to ease up and act as though it's a training school, not an olympic trial.


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## Lisa

Isrephael said:
			
		

> <snip>..
> This can apply not just to gender cross-overs, but among anyone who is bigger/stronger/more experienced. If your partner isn't letting you work techniques, he/she is a bad partner. Our instructor is quite good at teaching us to be good partners: to remove the ego from it... to not worry about "winning", but to concentrate on "learning".
> I can out-size and out-muscle most of the people at my school. And, of course, there are those who can out-experience/out-technique me. It is incumbent to both sides to ease up and act as though it's a training school, not an olympic trial.


Well said and true to both genders.  For instance I can out power both my children but they can out technique me.  They are quicker and more talented then I am.  Yes, I could just hold them down but that would teach them nothing more then frustration and teach me even less.  In a game of skill, powering through to win has no merit.


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