# Hapkido vs TaeKwon Do



## Master of Blades (Aug 22, 2002)

Im just wondering why TKD is so much more popular then Hapkido? In my personal opinion Hapkido is a much better art seeing as it includes all the locks throws sweeps and stuff that they dont teach you in TKD. I think there is more kicks as well, not sure tho. So why is Taekwon Du so much more popular? Im also interested to know why on the description of the Hapkido forum it says "more hard then soft..." because all the Hapkido I have seen and heard about is full contact?.........so like I so many others I ask........why?


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

None of the moderators has a Hapkido background so the description relies on second-hand info. Please, feel free to suggest a new description for that forum! See also this thread. If you do make such a suggestion, please do it in the Hapkido forum.

-Arnisador
-MT Mod-


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## arnisador (Aug 22, 2002)

The sport aspect of TKD, its kid-friendliness, and the well-organized marketing  of it all help.

There's also simple market share--the theory of increasing turns. Once you get more TKD schools, however it happens, more people take it, they open up schools, and it becomes widely available. It's harder to find HKD schools and that in and of itself is part of the explanation for the _current_ (not historical) difference.


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## Kempojujutsu (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> 
> *The sport aspect of TKD, its kid-friendliness, and the well-organized marketing  of it all help.
> 
> There's also simple market share--the theory of increasing turns. Once you get more TKD schools, however it happens, more people take it, they open up schools, and it becomes widely available. It's harder to find HKD schools and that in and of itself is part of the explanation for the current (not historical) difference. *


Most of the HKD I have seen is basically Jujutsu. You have to be able to do breakfalls, Locks, throws, self defense. It is more physical and mentaly hard on people than say TKD. I am not say TKD is for the wimps, but alot of people (mothers, kids) don't want to get hurt or feel pain. This is where TKD may have the advantage. It is more user friendly. Also in TKD around here you can get your Black Belt in 2 Years. This is the ATA that promotes their students this fast. Where most Martial Arts the standard is somewhere from 4-5 years or more. Another reason to like TKD.
Bob     :asian:


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## Eraser (Aug 23, 2002)

Hey there..

Ya know that this Hapkido girl is gonna add her 2 cents....

First off.. i would like to say that Hapkido can be both Hard and soft....   the softness i believe is in the actual motions that we do.. and the hardness.. is in the strikes and kicks....
We do utilize some Aiki-motion (that's where people say are similarity to Aikido comes from, and having studied that as well.. i believe there is some truth to that!!)  which can really bring out the soft side of hapkido as well...  but if we usually add more pain with it  (for fun.. lol, kidding)

At my school where I train.. the kids are taught more TKD then HKD.. but when you reach the adult classes.. its all hapkido.. with some Kosho Ryu in too  (you get even more of that when you reach black belt)  now not all schools incorporate KR in the curriculum.. but i know for me it adds so much more to the Hapkido.
Also.. even though the adults are trained in HKD.. we get the dual certification of HKD and TKD...  A lot of our kicks are TKD based..  but there is very little emphasis on the sport side of the TKD..

If anyone has any questions about Hapkido.. just ask in the forum.. and If I can't answer them..  I will try my best to get some info from others...


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## arnisador (Aug 23, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eraser _
> 
> *Also.. even though the adults are trained in HKD.. we get the dual certification of HKD and TKD...  *



Does this mean two black belts, one in each art (eventually), or does 'certification' mean something different?


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## KennethKu (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kempojujutsu _
> 
> *......... Also in TKD around here you can get your Black Belt in 2 Years. This is the ATA that promotes their students this fast. Where most Martial Arts the standard is somewhere from 4-5 years or more. Another reason to like TKD.
> Bob     :asian: *




I just looked at a website where they have instructors who are 17,  20 yrs old but ,  get this,  with Black Belt 3rd dan and 4th dan in TKD.  *sigh*   May be these are gifted super achievers.  It is possible to earn a BB at 20. But to reach 3rd dan, let alone 4th dan?


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## arnisador (Aug 24, 2002)

> _Originally posted by KennethKu _
> 
> *I just looked at a website where they have instructors who are 17,  20 yrs old but ,  get this,  with Black Belt 3rd dan and 4th dan in TKD.  *sigh*   May be these are gifted super achievers.  It is possible to earn a BB at 20. But to reach 3rd dan, let alone 4th dan? *



Position yourself far from sharp objects. Then start here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1412&perpage=15&pagenumber=9

Carefully read the entire page, including quoted material. Drink two shots and go to bed.


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## Danny (Aug 25, 2002)

> I just looked at a website where they have instructors who are 17, 20 yrs old but , get this, with Black Belt 3rd dan and 4th dan in TKD. *sigh* May be these are gifted super achievers. It is possible to earn a BB at 20. But to reach 3rd dan, let alone 4th dan?



Nothing wrong with 3rd Dan at 20.  About half of the instructors at my school are 15-17 year olds with 1st-2nd degree BB.  And if you where you to see our students you wouldn't think us unqualified to teach/hold our rank.  Take me for example.  Start at 7 1992.  Got BB at 11 1996.  Got 2nd Dan at 17 2002.  Will get 3rd Dan 2005 at 20.

While I agree 4th Dan is pushing it it's not necessarily completely outrageous for a 20 year old to have a 3rd Dan.


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## KennethKu (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Position yourself far from sharp objects. Then start here:
> http://www.martialtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1412&perpage=15&pagenumber=9
> 
> Carefully read the entire page, including quoted material. Drink two shots and go to bed. *



I stand corrected. What I saw at that school's site is nothing comparing to the "superachievers" ATA is churning out.  lol


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## KennethKu (Aug 25, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> * Nothing wrong with 3rd Dan at 20.  About half of the instructors at my school are 15-17 year olds with 1st-2nd degree BB.  And if you where you to see our students you wouldn't think us unqualified to teach/hold our rank.  Take me for example.  Start at 7 1992.  Got BB at 11 1996.  Got 2nd Dan at 17 2002.  Will get 3rd Dan 2005 at 20.
> 
> While I agree 4th Dan is pushing it it's not necessarily completely outrageous for a 20 year old to have a 3rd Dan. *



No. It is the 17 yr old with 3rd dan, the 20 yr old is 4th dan. 

"....About half of the instructors at my school are 15-17 year olds with 1st-2nd degree BB....."   

That would be Tien Lung TKD?


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## H@pkid0ist (Aug 26, 2002)

I am a Hap Ki Do practitioner. I have been so for a few years now and am prepairing for my 2 Dan test. Our type MA is very fluid. We can go from hard to soft in a heartbeat if the situation requires it. Over all we are more of a fluid art that is very versitile in capabilities. It would be more correct to say that we are sof twith hard capabilities, or flowing with hard and soft aspects.

We award black belts at a certian age. I believe 13 is the earliest you can test. From there you do not progress as quickly as everyone else, becouse at this age their training is focused on other things like moral aspects and such.
 As far as getting black belts in 2 years id TKD. The average student in a trditional HKD class ( no forms or katas) can earn their first dan after 2 years of study min, 2 hours a day 5 days a week. This is of course a generalization.


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## Eraser (Aug 26, 2002)

arnisador
 no we don't get 2 belts ..just one..  but we get certificates for both Hapkido and Tae Kwon Do...  I dunno why.. we just do.. i will have to ask my instructor about that one..  


AND.. as for the topic of young 3rd or 4th dan's

FUnny.. at my dojang where i train.. we have a 17 yr 3rd Dan, and a 21 yr old 4th dan.... (Hapkido) they have both been training since either of them were 4 yrs old...  SO i have no issues with their ranks...  they are great teachers and I have learned a great deal from them...  
TO me its not how old your are.. but what you know!!
Just my 3 cents...


:asian:


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## MartialArtist (Aug 27, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


No doubt your teacher is good as you say he is, but no, a black belt is supposed to come after intense years of training.  Some train 6 hours a day in the traditional way.  I bet your teacher went to classes 3-6 times a week.

They just promote too fast.  They as in McDojos, getting too commercialized.  It's not about skill anymore, it's about what belt you hold.


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## Master of Blades (Aug 27, 2002)

The whole young black belt thing does prove that MA is becoming more user freindly. My teacher trained 6 days a week everyday of the year except for boxing day and christmas for 3 hours a day. It took him 5 years to get to 2nd Dan Hapkido black Belt and he was taught by one of Dan Inasanto's studants. I think it does depend on the Teacher but me personally I beleive that a Black Belt is earnt through how well you have over the WHOLE of your training. Most people I have seen get there grading, leave for a while, come back in time to do there grading and thats how they get through. I've been doing it two years and we dont have set gradings and Im still only a green belt! Makes you wonder....:shrug:


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## MartialArtist (Sep 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Danny _
> 
> *
> 
> ...


Actually, there is something wrong with that.  I've seen from most schools in North America that all you need to do to pass to the next dan is forms, a few kicks, breaking, a few self-defense moves, and little sparring.

Traditionally, there's an endurance aspect of it, you're technique has to be perfect (i.e. if even ONE punch is sloppy, if you have a front stance instead of a walking stane, knife had technique, etc), mind aspect, and a lot of it is full-contact sparring with some gear on.

Testing for the next dan isn't one every two or three years.  Takes at least 5-7 years for when I was around.


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## J-kid (Sep 17, 2002)

.That must be a mcdojo Kid instructers lol.  
sorry but 17/20 year olds shoudnt be holding black belts.
Sorry but the place that has kids as bb are mcdojos i mean 3dan wtf 4 dan?????

Real martial art Dojo reserve BB and Dans for students who train for many years with intensity to earn BB you have to study Ma in my Veiw for 10 years at least.  To become as i like to call it one with the art.    I guess some dojos need money so they do belt tests every other month   WHat can you do   

Thats just my input


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## Marginal (Sep 17, 2002)

So says the person who trains in more than 3 arts at one time... 

There's nothing inherently wrong with a teen etc holding a BB, it just means you're a serious beginner in TKD after all. Getting to 9th Dan in the ITF etc has a lot of time stipulations so even that teen BB's still going to have to invest ~30 years to attain a rank that indicates the level of mastery you seem to think a BB implies.

Some organizations dole them out faster etc, or have special placeholder belts until they reach a certain age. Some places are McDojo's but the presence of a teen holding a BB's a piss poor measure of such a thing.


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## J-kid (Sep 17, 2002)

Hey i agree that some teens who train hard deserve BB,  But 3rd and 4th  DAN .  THat gives martial arts a bad name 3rd and 4ths are reserve for those who commet many apone many years and train in a consint.


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 17, 2002)

I look at it this way. If the person has put in the dedication, time (years), blood, and swet, then it doesnt matter if he is a teen. If they deserve it then they deserve it. I have been studying for  years and have been around the real training halls and mcdojos alike. If a person starts their study at 8years old and at 12 they get their 1st dan, at 14 their 2nd dan, and at 17 or 18 their 3rd dan, then as long as they can do what they have been taught proficiently and have developed the proper mind set then so be it. My teacher is 62. He is one of the original Hapkido Grandmasters. He started his studies at the age of 12 and by the time he was 18 he was a third degree and runing his own school. He is an increadable MAist.He studied in the old country the traditional ways. These way they started young and were masters in their early to mid 20s. They put in long hours and tons of hard work, borderline abuse and assault, to achieve what they have gotten. This is the old way. The way the great masters of the past trained. It didn't take them 10, 8, or 6 years to get their dans. And on top of it all the recieved 4 and 5th while they were very young. These are the people that developed the arts we study today. These are the forefathers of what we study today. It isnt how many years you study. Its how many hours a day, how much dedication, pain, blood, swet, tears that get you there. All these years of study in the great Americanized school is all about the money, monthly dues, Buisness. My teacher came up the old fashioned way and I would put him against any odds. Yes you have to still be good and know what you are doing. But, just becouse they are not 25, 30, 35 years old before they get their 1st, 2nd, and 3rd dans doesnt mean they don't know what they are doing, are compitant, or worked any less than anyone else. Yes their are the mcdojos out there that give us all a bad name. But so does this negative way of thinking. They may be young but they are just as capable and compitent as anyone else out there. I know from first hand experience. My first Hapkido teacher was a 23 year old 4th degree and he knew what he was doing. Myself I'm almost 29. I'm nowear near him and I am 4 years older than him. Age has nothing to do with it. Its all personal abilities and dedication. Don't be closed minded to these younger people just becouse you may have had to wait 8 years before someone either felt you deserved your rank or you reached their financial highbar, and paid enough money to them to test. They way things are done mostly now is the American way, not the traditional way. Don't let the martial buisness man brainwash you into thinking that there are any set number of years you have to bleed before you have paid him enough money to be given the opportunity to test. And if anyone Thinks that this is just my personal opinion, well I get what I have to say from several Korean Grandmasters, old chinese masters, and a long time friend and teacher Okinowan master, and a ahrd core traditional Japanese stylist who is a breath away from being a master. With exception of the last 2 who are American the Chinese and Korean are their specific nationality. But all of them inclyding myself are traditional MAists ant traditional teachers.

BREEEEAAAAAATTTTTTTTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHHHHH.


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 17, 2002)

My last word on this I swear. It should be you get out of it what you put in to it reguardless of age, not how long you have paid into it. That is a McDojo. McDojos carry stock in bandaids, real schools just mop up all the blood and swet you shed to better yourself.


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## Danny (Sep 17, 2002)

Very well said H@pkid0ist.


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## Eraser (Sep 17, 2002)

hapkidoist..
Couldn't have said it any better..
You can say all you want about the age of 1st,2nd,3rd dan..
But if they put in the time then they deserve it!!
Nuff said!!


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## MartialArtist (Sep 17, 2002)

I agree with hapkidoist, but...

I don't care how good you are, you shouldn't be holding anything higher than a 1st dan in your teens.  Testing doesn't go like that per-say.  You may have extraordinary skill, but even if you happen to be 25 and the greatest martial artist alive, you shouldn't have a 3rd or 4th.  It shows how much experience you have and although you have great skill, you do not have the knowledge in the art as older, more experienced people have.  They always have something to add (presuming they don't know what a McDojo is)


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 17, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *
> I don't care how good you are, you shouldn't be holding anything higher than a 1st dan in your teens.  Testing doesn't go like that per-say.  You may have extraordinary skill, but even if you happen to be 25 and the greatest martial artist alive, you shouldn't have a 3rd or 4th.  *



Who's rule is this. Its no different than if someone started at 25 and got their rank equivelently. This is how it has been for ages. People think the way you are talking becouse that is all they are exposed to or they are going on the thoughts and opinions of someone who has been comercialized. It isnt about how long you have paid that $60. or so dollar monthly fee and all those hyphenated belt testing fees. Its about what you have earned. Being a teen in no way means that you don't have the experience or understanding. Age is not a boundry, only closemindeness. We should all strive to achive an open minded attitude. Strive for perfection. Perfection is impossible. Strive for the impossible.


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## Danny (Sep 18, 2002)

I got my Junior BB at 11.  I'm sorry but 9 years is to long of a wait from 1st to 2nd.  I respect my elders but the fact remains I am more skilled, more experienced (by far) and a better instructor then all of the elder 1st Dans at my club.


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 18, 2002)

So MartialArtists. No matter how good you are if you are young you do not deserve what you have earned. That makes no sense.If you have earned it and are good then you should be treated accordingly. I don't know where all this mind set came from but it shure as hell isnt from the past masters. At least not a majority. This waiting a certian age before you deserveany grade is ludacris. What is happening then is no different then sexism or raceism. Its ageism. I coud understand if someone was a 6 year old black belt or and 8 year old 2nd or up. Children this old don't even have the strength for the techniques that don't require strength. I have never met a child that young that truly is capable of not just all the techniques, but the understanding of them and moral responsabilities. A person in their late teens and early 20s is different though. They do know and understand these things. And if they have put in the time, years, and training they should be rewarded accordingly. If they Deserve it. Just becouse they didn't start at 30 or something doesnt mean they should be treated differently. Looking down on them becouse of their age isn't an adult thing to do.


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## Bagatha (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by MartialArtist _
> 
> *I agree with hapkidoist, but...
> 
> I don't care how good you are, you shouldn't be holding anything higher than a 1st dan in your teens.  Testing doesn't go like that per-say.  You may have extraordinary skill, but even if you happen to be 25 and the greatest martial artist alive, you shouldn't have a 3rd or 4th.  It shows how much experience you have and although you have great skill, you do not have the knowledge in the art as older, more experienced people have.  They always have something to add (presuming they don't know what a McDojo is) *



Funny you should say that.....at what age did bruce lee begin his own style? 27ish? He had no rank that I am aware of but if there was a belt system, he would be the grandmaster of his style, and who are you to say he didnt deserve it?


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## Eraser (Sep 18, 2002)

OK...
I hoope this thread doesn't start a war...(naw.. im sure we can all be cool in here right??)

BUt im still on Hapkidoist side.. only because.. of my instructors.. yes they are young.. but they have been in Hapkido for 15 yrs now..  and when you see how they teach.. and the skill level they do have you can then understand that they do deserve the rank they have.. NOW.. dont get me wrong, there are some people that have Dan ranks that don't deserve them..
But I KNow that's not the case with my school.. don't believe me.. come on down and see for yourself.. our school door is open to everyone!!!


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## MartialArtist (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by H@pkid0ist _
> 
> *
> 
> Who's rule is this. Its no different than if someone started at 25 and got their rank equivelently. This is how it has been for ages. People think the way you are talking becouse that is all they are exposed to or they are going on the thoughts and opinions of someone who has been comercialized. It isnt about how long you have paid that $60. or so dollar monthly fee and all those hyphenated belt testing fees. Its about what you have earned. Being a teen in no way means that you don't have the experience or understanding. Age is not a boundry, only closemindeness. We should all strive to achive an open minded attitude. Strive for perfection. Perfection is impossible. Strive for the impossible. *


I haven't been exposed to the commercialization until late in my training as I've trained in Korea first and stayed with my elder family for a while.

You simply DON'T have enough time to earn a 3-4 dan when you are in your teens.

Age is not a boundary for skill, but it definetly is a boundary for experience and general wisdom.

You shouldn't get your 3rd dan when people traditionally spent at least 30 getting such a rank.

And most people don't know the meaning of how much blood is spilled on the dojang.  Become a follower of a combat TKD instructor in Korea and you'll see how much blood, puke, and sweat there is.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by H@pkid0ist _
> 
> *So MartialArtists. No matter how good you are if you are young you do not deserve what you have earned. That makes no sense.If you have earned it and are good then you should be treated accordingly. I don't know where all this mind set came from but it shure as hell isnt from the past masters. At least not a majority. This waiting a certian age before you deserveany grade is ludacris. What is happening then is no different then sexism or raceism. Its ageism. I coud understand if someone was a 6 year old black belt or and 8 year old 2nd or up. Children this old don't even have the strength for the techniques that don't require strength. I have never met a child that young that truly is capable of not just all the techniques, but the understanding of them and moral responsabilities. A person in their late teens and early 20s is different though. They do know and understand these things. And if they have put in the time, years, and training they should be rewarded accordingly. If they Deserve it. Just becouse they didn't start at 30 or something doesnt mean they should be treated differently. Looking down on them becouse of their age isn't an adult thing to do. *


No, you are taking things wrong.

If you are young, it has no indication on skill.  But you do not earn belts like the way you describe.  A lot of teachers are lenient on what they test and a lot of the tests are pretty much forms, some kicks, some rolling, some sparring, breaking, etc.  For other people, you had to test in a period of one month.  Can you imagine that?  Yes, people fail tests.  A minute mistake might cost you.

You simply don't have enough experience.  I don't care how old you are, but if you've been training since you're six and you're 20 now, 14 years isn't enough.  I would say the same with a 44 year old who started training in his 30's.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Bagatha _
> 
> *
> 
> Funny you should say that.....at what age did bruce lee begin his own style? 27ish? He had no rank that I am aware of but if there was a belt system, he would be the grandmaster of his style, and who are you to say he didnt deserve it? *


Lee created his own style, and he started training around 14.  13 years isn't bad, but not enough to be a grandmaster.  Bruce Lee didn't consider himself a grandmaster.  If you read his "Tao of Gung Fu" you see some grandmasters that he has listed, from the late Yip Man to the founder of Chin Woo.  That's grandmaster status.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Eraser _
> 
> *OK...
> I hoope this thread doesn't start a war...(naw.. im sure we can all be cool in here right??)
> ...


It is not so much the rank for being a good teacher.

You can be a 1st dan and be a better teacher than even the grandmaster in terms of teaching ability, not skill or knowledge or experience.  The question is, if he deserved the belt in real conditions?

Example...

One testing period over a span of a day to whatever depending on what rank you were going for:


Basic techniques
Basic drills
Memorization of Codes
Ability to apply the codes and showing it (yes, people watch you)
Stamina
Some sort of mind endurance test (it differs.  I had to do numerous pushups over a small creek with an instructor with a stick and it gets pretty cold in Korea)
Weapons
Breaking
Forms
Sparring and more sparring

And a mistake, something as small as doing a walking stance instead of a front stance in a form could cost you.  Although you have more room to make mistakes in combat (weapons and hand-to-hand), it was pretty tough.  I failed many tests.  99.999% would fail at least 5 tests by the time they reach 2nd dan.

Now, does that mean people can go with lower ITF or WTF standards and get black belts?  Yes, but I wouldn't say they deserve it in military TKD standards, not at all, not even close.  Does that mean there aren't a lot of hard trainers?  No, but I doubt that they've been exposed to such conditions.


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 18, 2002)

I still have to disagree with you MartialArtist. I have found that teens generaly have more time to study than a buisy family man who has to balance his time between job, wife, children, household responsabilities, Where teens mostly have school and self. Even if you start at 8 or so 10 years of study is the same as if you start at 20. An older person doesnt understand all the responsabilities and ideaoligies right away. Thats why they call it a learning process. I stand firm on my original thoughts, but do respect you opinion. This is my 22 years of training speaking.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 19, 2002)

Busy family man...  Well, that's not really how the case was.  It was like boot camp.  From the early ages to your 20's, there were people who stayed there the whole time.  It was like being a disciple.  And to a lot of them, it was their job, their way of life.  I went back to the States during HS and went back after I got married to train again.  Korea's culture is different from the culture of the US.  The US, you have to balance work, everything.

Oh yeah, our schooling didn't come from a school like the states.  Our schooling came from them.

If you want to get a better idea of what it really is like over there, I suggest you find an instructor (a lot of good ones only select a few) and train with him for a year.  It is like learning a new language.  You won't be fluent at it unless you live in the country and speak it, use it, and apply it every day of the year.


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## Bagatha (Sep 19, 2002)

Welcome to the twenty-first century Martial artist. You still havent answered my questions below.....


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## H@pkid0ist (Sep 19, 2002)

While in the military I was stationed in Korea. I know all about the life over there. I spent a year alone without any family and had no other alternative than to experience the culture and life. Remember your life isnt nescessarialy A typical. Nothing 100% or allways the same. Also, 2 of my newer students studied over there for 4 years as child dependants of Army parents. They only reinforce my beliefs.


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## MartialArtist (Sep 19, 2002)

> _Originally posted by H@pkid0ist _
> 
> *While in the military I was stationed in Korea. I know all about the life over there. I spent a year alone without any family and had no other alternative than to experience the culture and life. Remember your life isnt nescessarialy A typical. Nothing 100% or allways the same. Also, 2 of my newer students studied over there for 4 years as child dependants of Army parents. They only reinforce my beliefs. *


Did they study combat TKD or sport?  The two lifestyles are very different.  Both train all day, but the other one promotes way faster for its obvious reasons...  If you have a great tap sparrer as a red belt, it would be your best bet to bring him into the black belt division.

However, combat, you earn it.  You earn it through your knowledge, experience, and skill.  To many people's standards, the teens you see as 3rd or 4th dan won't get it past 1st in twice the time they got their 3rd dan.

If some people really did earn it, there is the group that doesn't deserve it.  The strict and high standards are there for a reason.  And not many of them would survive a few weeks of it.  Think NFL camp.  But with more pain and even more mental training.


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