# Karate Question



## NDevR2XL (Jun 14, 2017)

Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?


----------



## dancingalone (Jun 14, 2017)

IMO nothing is absolutely "wrong".  If it works or if it is needed, then surely a knife hand block from a front stance is correct.

However, there's usually good reasons for why codified styles do things the way they do.  It's because someone influential at some point in the past found it good to do that things that way and passed it along.

For your specific question, I myself practice shuto uke from more of a side facing stance than a front facing one.  I do this because I think the applications for a knife hand motion are more natural or efficient from this position though surely exceptions exist. 

Look at this video for example.  Look at how the defender chops from a non-frontal position before transitioning to a horse stance for the take down.  IMO it's more clumsy to do it from a front stance, so he doesn't show it that way.


----------



## Paul_D (Jun 14, 2017)

NDevR2XL said:


> Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?


Shifting your weight back helps you pull them onto your strike, but if you are moving forward then shifitng you weight forward won't be wrong.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jun 14, 2017)

can you tell me what style you do?  and possibly the Japanese names of your back stance and front stance? or help me get an idea of what stances you are using.
the long answer is there is no wrong way, as long as it works.   but... most likely you are practicing kihon basics the predominant way the sequence is done in your kata. which would mean it is only one possibility, but doing the action in a different way may make certain compromises in effectiveness you will have to understand and account for.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jun 15, 2017)

dancingalone said:


> IMO nothing is absolutely "wrong".  If it works or if it is needed, then surely a knife hand block from a front stance is correct.
> 
> However, there's usually good reasons for why codified styles do things the way they do.  It's because someone influential at some point in the past found it good to do that things that way and passed it along.
> 
> ...



I'm the dummy.  Which hand is being defended against in the video?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jun 15, 2017)

NDevR2XL said:


> Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?



These are questions you should be asking your instructor, and the follow his or her advice.  They may have a valid perspective on it that we cannot possibly know based on what you've asked so far.

If you're asking for opinions, just on the surface it would appear that Paul D has the right of it, a back stance lets you pull them back with you if contact has been made.  But moving forward is perfectly valid as well.  The application is different, however.

For what it may be worth, we use a tegata barai, which is an open hand sweep rather than a knife hand block.  The application may look similar, but thinking of the hand as simply 'open' as opposed to being specifically formed into a 'knife hand' makes it so much more flexible for different applications (such as a deflection and subsequent grab).  There is a 'settling movement' in the tegata barai which draws the attacker slightly forward and hopefully off-balance, but it is very subtle and hard to see unless it is demonstrated and explained.

Similarly, the rising or upper body open hand block (or deflection, sweep, etc) is generally applied with an open hand, but can be transformed into a wrap and pull if the conditions are right for that.  Typically the stance is neutral in such a case, as it is important to have good contact with the ground when pulling a large limb down to your waist.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jun 15, 2017)

NDevR2XL said:


> Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?


I don't know the specifics of your training, so I'll share a generality. Often, the initial stance used in training a movement is used for one of three common reasons. 1) It is one of the most common stances used with that movement. 2) It makes it easier to use the specific body movement that goes with the hand/arm movement. 3) It makes it easier to see and/or avoid some common mistakes, so you can practice doing it right more often.

There are other reasons, but these seem to be the most common.


----------



## Tez3 (Jun 15, 2017)

NDevR2XL said:


> Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?



It's going to depend on your style and what that style calls a 'back stance'. As someone has already asked, if you can post up your style and the Japanese name of the stance it would help.


----------



## Hanshi (Jul 13, 2017)

NDevR2XL said:


> Why is it that in class knife hand blocks are always in back stance? If I use a front stance is that wrong?






While in the real world, formal stances are transient position one goes through and not positions one "takes" to fight.  The formal training teaches one how to use footwork, execute techniques and sharpen skills and the natural weapons.  Your instructor can give you a much better explanation for this.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 14, 2017)

I'm guessing you are shotokan from the terminology, but honestly the reason is the same across most karate styles (expect people to disagree with that).

The back stance (which should not extend beyond your finger tips; long stances are for traininh not fighting) with knife hand is a close quarter fighting stance of this branch of karate. Your rear hand returning to your hip is fine if you are out of reach but when up close both hands need to be up in front of you as there is less time to react.

The lead hand forms your defensive wall for parrying attacks and tying up the opponents guard. The elbow remains sunken to connect it to your body and to make it harder for opponents to gain control of your arm.

The back stance let's you maximise the distance between you and your opponent so that your rear hand strikes gain as much acceleration as possible despite the lack of space and by keeping back you have as much room as you can to see what's coming. The lead leg also carries less weight so it can be used to kick or intercept as needed.

Lastly the 4 directional shuto-back stances and the opening moves in the hiean/pinan and kanku Kara are to highlight the use of body shifting both as close evasion and as a grappling tool.

I hope that helps.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 14, 2017)

What in particular do you disagree with Paul?


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 14, 2017)

DaveB said:


> What in particular do you disagree with Paul?


Specifically...



DaveB said:


> Your rear hand returning to your hip is fine


No, it's not, because it serves no purpose there.   Why would you perform a movement that has no practical function? Hikite is for pulling your opponent onto your strike.  You wouldn't pull your hand back to your hip for any other reason.  As Motobu said:- never have a dead hand.   A hand sitting on the hip is a dead hand as it is doing nothing.   If it has no purpose, you would pull it back to your chin to guard. 

Any explanation which only explains what _some_ part of the body are doing, but not all (as is the case with most explanations of movements as "blocks") is incorrect.  Unless an explanation of a technique _adequately and practical _gives a function why_ all the parts of the body_ are doing what they are doing, then it is wrong.



DaveB said:


> The back stance let's you maximise the distance between you and your opponent


Shuto-uke is for seizing your opponent with Hikite and them pulling them onto your shuto strike, so there will not be any distance between you and your opponent.  



DaveB said:


> and by keeping back you have as much room as you can to see what's coming.


Shuto Uke is for self defence, not fighting, so there won't be anything coming.  It is for use preemptively (which is why it is often found at the beginning of kata) and once you have hit you keep hitting until they are no longer a threat, then you retreat.  You don't take turns hitting each other like you do in sparring, he does't get a turn, so there won't be anything coming.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 14, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Specifically...
> 
> 
> No, it's not, because it serves no purpose there.   Why would you perform a movement that has no practical function? Hikite is for pulling your opponent onto your strike.  You wouldn't pull your hand back to your hip for any other reason.  As Motobu said:- never have a dead hand.   A hand sitting on the hip is a dead hand as it is doing nothing.   If it has no purpose, you would pull it back to your chin to guard.



Your not wrong except in that you think it's an every time all the time thing. Kata are as much training to use the body as they are fight codes. The practical purpose of the hand on hip is a wind up for a big punch.
Bunkai is great but there's no need to make everything complicated. 

Also what instances of guarding the chin do you find in Kata? Even old bare knuckle boxers didn't guard the chin like modern boxers do so I don't see why you'd expect it in 19th century karate.


> Any explanation which only explains what _some_ part of the body are doing, but not all (as is the case with most explanations of movements as "blocks") is incorrect.  Unless an explanation of a technique _adequately and practical _gives a function why_ all the parts of the body_ are doing what they are doing, then it is wrong.



Agreed, but I wasn't giving an explanation of a hip loading technique. 



> Shuto-uke is for seizing your opponent with Hikite and them pulling them onto your shuto strike, so there will not be any distance between you and your opponent.



Shuto is for many things, this is one. But the question was not about shuto in isolation, but rather in combination with back stance. If the technique had only this one application why would it be repeated 11 times in the hiean kata alone and in multiple directions.

You said yourself, an application needs to explain what the whole body is doing and this includes movement and repetition. 

Which also begs the question why your hikite doesn't return to the hip like all the other non-blocks?

You're arguing passionately that hip-hand equals hikite, but shuto retracts to in front of the chest, losing a great deal of pull. In fact I'd even argue that your "pull in strike" application doesn't really work because of the shallow pull, especially if it's supposed to be a surprise pre-emptive strike when you'd have more chance of succeeding with a deep pull to the hip.



> Shuto Uke is for self defence, not fighting, so there won't be anything coming.  It is for use preemptively (which is why it is often found at the beginning of kata) and once you have hit you keep hitting until they are no longer a threat, then you retreat.  You don't take turns hitting each other like you do in sparring, he does't get a turn, so there won't be anything coming.



1. If you take turns to hit in sparring you should spar other places. 
2. Which kata begin with shuto? Even if you find one there are for more instances of the technique mid kata.
3. I am on board with a focus towards self defence over fighting and the differences that can bring, however an approach that assumes success and incapacitation first time makes an *** out of u and me. 
You may as well abandon your bunkai and go back to old fashioned JKA single reverse punch fixes everything. 
4. The application I'm discussing is as a guard position, a base from which to defend yourself ie you could be in it during the chest bumping phase of a conflict just as readily as circling a guy in a ring.


----------



## Paul_D (Jul 16, 2017)

DaveB said:


> The practical purpose of the hand on hip is a wind up for a big punch.


Sorry, but I stopped reading once I got to this point.  It is not practical to have your fist on your hip don't nothing.  It's a dead hand.  What is practical (if it's not performing hikite) is to have it guarding your chin, like boxers, who it has been shown have the most  powerful punches.

Chambering your hand on your hip is part of the utter nonsense that was trotted out in the 80s and before (along with "blocks").  If people still believe this then they don't understand the very art they claim to teach.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 16, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Sorry, but I stopped reading once I got to this point.  It is not practical to have your fist on your hip don't nothing.  It's a dead hand.  What is practical (if it's not performing hikite) is to have it guarding your chin, like boxers, who it has been shown have the most  powerful punches.
> 
> Chambering your hand on your hip is part of the utter nonsense that was trotted out in the 80s and before (along with "blocks").  If people still believe this then they don't understand the very art they claim to teach.


Well that was juvenile. But I suppose it's easier than considering where you might be wrong.

I get your point of view, I even used to think the same, but as I learned more I grew more flexible in my approach. Your way of doing things is not wrong, but it's not the only way.

The thing is kata aren't fights. Note the lack of boxing guards. One element of kata is simply mechanical training; learning to use the whole body to generate your techniques. The hand on the hip is part of that foundational training.

It is also hikite in a lot of places. 

In application there are times you need a big simple whole body block and times to use a more controlling hikite. When you are using the whole body block you shouldn't need to guard your chin as well, as the block should interrupt their balance. The opening that creates allows for a larger wind up for a more powerful strike. 

The question I have for you is if you don't block how do you stop incoming attacks?


----------



## JR 137 (Jul 16, 2017)

DaveB said:


> The question I have for you is if you don't block how do you stop incoming attacks?



I'll take a shot at this one...

The actual "block" is the smallest part of it.  Footwork, body/torso movement, and head movement the the real key.  Some karate schools refer to it as tai sabaki.  Standing squared up and doing a textbook 2 handed jodan uke is going to get you hit in any realistic encounter (unless of course you have lightning-like reflexes and/or your opponent is among the slowest people on the planet).

The best place to be during a punch (other than not being there at all) varies on the situation.  Standing straight in front of your opponent, kata style (the absurd breakdown of kata) is perhaps the worst place to be.  Sometimes the best place is very close and in front, other times it's very close and off line, other times it's far away and center or off center.

If your tai sabaki is correct, the "blocking hand" does very little; it'll either just knock it away, deflect it further off course, or attack the limb.  Simple blocking is for the very beginners.  

All IMO and easier said than done.  I get hit far too often with far too many things to claim any expertise on the matter


----------



## DaveB (Jul 16, 2017)

JR 137 said:


> I'll take a shot at this one...
> 
> The actual "block" is the smallest part of it.  Footwork, body/torso movement, and head movement the the real key.  Some karate schools refer to it as tai sabaki.  Standing squared up and doing a textbook 2 handed jodan uke is going to get you hit in any realistic encounter (unless of course you have lightning-like reflexes and/or your opponent is among the slowest people on the planet).
> 
> ...


I agree completely except that simple blocking is not for beginners, it's for emergencies. 

Body shifting is great but when your arguing with one guy and another comes from your flank you might not have time to do anything but get your hand in the way.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

Paul D had a temper tantrum and left the forum, which is not a great loss because he never stuck around to answer the whole poked in his arguments anyway.

However had he stayed he might have found this educational. It shows why you don't always want to use hikite and how some pretty simple fight options can screw over his interpretation of shuto.






Now I don't agree with everything in this video both in how to do the technique and in how to counter it, but the gist is pretty accurate.
Not least is what do you do if they block you and try to grapple?

While there are ways around it, Paul came from the perspective of applying kata and the kata doesn't really answer that question.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

What didn't you like Tez?


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> What didn't you like Tez?



This



DaveB said:


> Paul D had a temper tantrum and left the forum, which is not a great loss because he never stuck around to answer the whole poked in his arguments anyway.


----------



## Headhunter (Jul 23, 2017)

Paul_D said:


> Sorry, but I stopped reading once I got to this point.  It is not practical to have your fist on your hip don't nothing.  It's a dead hand.  What is practical (if it's not performing hikite) is to have it guarding your chin, like boxers, who it has been shown have the most  powerful punches.
> 
> Chambering your hand on your hip is part of the utter nonsense that was trotted out in the 80s and before (along with "blocks").  If people still believe this then they don't understand the very art they claim to teach.


What I've always been told in pretty much all styles of karate I've done is it's not just bringing the elbow to your hip it's used as a rear elbow If someone is coming up behind you. So you hit the guy in front of you, guy comes from behind shoot your elbow into his stomach.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> This


I'm sorry if I offended you, but this thread stands as testament to the way in which he argued and the post in which he announced his departure was nothing short of a hissy fit calling folks who disagreed with him idiots.

One can only learn so much from a person who won't debate the flaws in his position because if you don't think like him your an idiot.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> What I've always been told in pretty much all styles of karate I've done is it's not just bringing the elbow to your hip it's used as a rear elbow If someone is coming up behind you. So you hit the guy in front of you, guy comes from behind shoot your elbow into his stomach.



I actually think that one of the applications of shuto uke is an elbow strike to the "rear".

In kanku Dai and hiean nidan there is a punch-kick to the back followed by dropping your body weight back and shutoing to the front. Well if you consider the body weight as the direction your hitting then the knife hand motion functions as a pull and the elbow of the hikite an elbow strike with your full body weight behind it.

This fits the pattern, since every other simultaneous kick-punch in the kata is followed by a large overt elbow strike.


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I'm sorry if I offended you, but this thread stands as testament to the way in which he argued and the post in which he announced his departure was nothing short of a hissy fit calling folks who disagreed with him idiots.
> 
> One can only learn so much from a person who won't debate the flaws in his position because if you don't think like him your an idiot.




I'm not offended just didn't see the point. Where's the post where he announced his departure from here, all I saw was where he said he'd stopped reading? I didn't see any hissy fit.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

Different thread


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Different thread



Then it's nothing to do with this.


----------



## DaveB (Jul 23, 2017)

Tez3 said:


> Then it's nothing to do with this.


Except that he won't be replying to a video about his point. And since I was disagreeing with him I was no doubt included in the cast of idiots he was escaping from. He near enough said as much in this thread so I'll have to disagree with you on that one. 


Paul_D said:


> No, SD and fighting are the same apparently, so perhaps you can explain how the SD skills Threat Awareness & Evaluation, verbal de-escalation and The Fence are fighting skills?
> 
> Or how a mugger holding a knife in your face, or a wife being strangled by her abusive husband, or a woman who has been dragged into an alley by her hair by a sexual predator isn't self defence anymore, because it's not a consensual fight, and only consensual fighting is SD.
> 
> ...


----------



## Tez3 (Jul 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> Except that he won't be replying to a video about his point. And since I was disagreeing with him I was no doubt included in the cast of idiots he was escaping from. He near enough said as much in this thread so I'll have to disagree with you on that one.



Many people haven't read that thread, I hadn't so had no idea what you are talking about so yes it was pointless saying that. Much better to have ignored it and not let someone get under your skin which he obviously has. Perhaps if you don't like people disagreeing with you, you shouldn't post here either. Paul's posts have always be fine, I see no reason to fret just because he disagreed with you. He didn't call you an idiot, he called the idiots on that thread idiots, perhaps you should look at* all* _their_ posts on other threads before passing judgement.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

DaveB said:


> I actually think that one of the applications of shuto uke is an elbow strike to the "rear".
> 
> In kanku Dai and hiean nidan there is a punch-kick to the back followed by dropping your body weight back and shutoing to the front. Well if you consider the body weight as the direction your hitting then the knife hand motion functions as a pull and the elbow of the hikite an elbow strike with your full body weight behind it.
> 
> This fits the pattern, since every other simultaneous kick-punch in the kata is followed by a large overt elbow strike.


I'm not a karateka, so take my opinions here with a grain of salt. Perhaps an entire salt lick.

I've always had the following view of Karate kata, when investigating them (an intellectual pursuit for me). They can be used/understood a number of ways. They do teach some actual specific movement combinations. They also seem to use some exaggerated movements, which I believe may be there simply to get a certain subset of students to actually move enough. The kata also appear to be helping the student memorize some basic movement patterns. And many of the movements that are being "memorized" (more correctly involves things like engraining and myelin development) are useful for a number of purposes - hence the description of this hand-to-hip as chambering, elbowing, pulling in, etc. The base movement can be used for all of those things, and probably a few others. The same goes for many of the other movements represented. I also see instructors often using kata to bring attention to finer details. This was probably originally done specifically to help students develop awareness of their bodies (proprioception, etc.), though I'm not sure how many instructors consciously use this attention to detail for this purpose.

When I added some kata to my curriculum a couple of years ago, I worked toward some of these ends (though not all).


----------



## hoshin1600 (Jul 23, 2017)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not a karateka, so take my opinions here with a grain of salt. Perhaps an entire salt lick.
> 
> I've always had the following view of Karate kata, when investigating them (an intellectual pursuit for me). They can be used/understood a number of ways. They do teach some actual specific movement combinations. They also seem to use some exaggerated movements, which I believe may be there simply to get a certain subset of students to actually move enough. The kata also appear to be helping the student memorize some basic movement patterns. And many of the movements that are being "memorized" (more correctly involves things like engraining and myelin development) are useful for a number of purposes - hence the description of this hand-to-hip as chambering, elbowing, pulling in, etc. The base movement can be used for all of those things, and probably a few others. The same goes for many of the other movements represented. I also see instructors often using kata to bring attention to finer details. This was probably originally done specifically to help students develop awareness of their bodies (proprioception, etc.), though I'm not sure how many instructors consciously use this attention to detail for this purpose.
> 
> When I added some kata to my curriculum a couple of years ago, I worked toward some of these ends (though not all).



I agree. The only thing I would add is that sometimes the exaggeration is to show lines of force.  If the bunkai has a small action the exaggeration can show you the direction of the action that would otherwise be imperceptible.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Jul 23, 2017)

Headhunter said:


> What I've always been told in pretty much all styles of karate I've done is it's not just bringing the elbow to your hip it's used as a rear elbow If someone is coming up behind you. So you hit the guy in front of you, guy comes from behind shoot your elbow into his stomach.


That is what I was taught in the mid-60s as well, when studying TKD.  Also that it was an action-reaction thing, which added power to both movements.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Jul 23, 2017)

hoshin1600 said:


> I agree. The only thing I would add is that sometimes the exaggeration is to show lines of force.  If the bunkai has a small action the exaggeration can show you the direction of the action that would otherwise be imperceptible.


This exaggeration is one thing I didn't incorporate in my kata, and sometimes wish I had. My students seem inclined to fix that problem for me in some places, when they practice the kata.


----------

