# What is your favorite / recommended WC book?



## PiedmontChun (Aug 5, 2014)

It seems like finding a good WC book or reference can be very hit or miss. What are some of the books others here have and reccomend? Not for actually learning the art from a book, but just as an aid or even 'coffee table book' to read in spare time.

For me personally:

- I have Ip Chun's Wing Chun Kung Fu: Traditional Chinese Kung Fu for Self-Defense and Health: Ip Chun, Michael Tse: 9780312187767: Amazon.com: Books and it is so general and basic it almost useless other than to show an outsider a taste of what WC is all about.
- I also have the now-out-of-print http://www.amazon.com/Look-Beyond-P...id=1407254153&sr=8-2&keywords=wong+shun+leung which is great book to read if you revere WSL, but it is more anecdotal than technical in nature.

Being in the Leung Ting lineage I know there are tons of books from him printed in the WingTsun explosion of the 80's; some appear out of date or get a bad rep for being self-promoting so I am cautious to fork out the money.

What about you guys?


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## Vajramusti (Aug 5, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> It seems like finding a good WC book or reference can be very hit or miss. What are some of the books others here have and reccomend? Not for actually learning the art from a book, but just as an aid or even 'coffee table book' to read in spare time.
> 
> For me personally:
> 
> ...


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Lots of pretty bad wing chun books out there.

I dint learn from the books but I have my sifu(Augustine Fong's ) books- most of them out of print.

Chow and Weakland's 3 volume book- The secrets of Wing Chun kung fu isn't bad.


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## TinTin_57 (Aug 5, 2014)

I have several:-

Mastering Wing Chun by Samuel Kwok is very good, as are the 3 books by Shaun Rawcliffe. 

I have others that I treat purely as collectables and these are Developing Chi Power by William Cheung and Advanced Wing Chun by William Cheung. I also have the James Yim Lee Wing Chun book too. (I quite like the Black Belt/Ohara martial arts books).


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## KPM (Aug 5, 2014)

I like books.   I have been involved in Wing Chun for a looooong time.  So....I have a pretty extensive Wing Chun library.  Some books absolutely horrible.  Some pretty good.  If anyone had a question about a specific title, I likely have it in my library and may be able to answer.

Some of my favorites:
1.  WSL/Peterson's  "Pointing Finger" is a good read and I seem to pick up on something new every time I read it.  A new expanded edition is back in print.  Some additional articles have been added, but the main text remains the same.

2.  Randy Williams' older series.  This was printed in Singapore.  Likely now out of print.  I haven't seen the new version.  But this is probably the most comprehensive series of Wing Chun books you will find and Williams is very technical with good attention to detail.  

3.  Wayne Belonha's 2 volumes are probably the next most comprehensive series you will find and are pretty good.

These are all Ip Man Wing Chun.  If you are looking for something about non-Ip Man Wing Chun good luck!  The choices are limited and what is available isn't very comprehensive or very good.


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 5, 2014)

KPM said:


> I like books. I have been involved in Wing Chun for a looooong time. So....I have a pretty extensive Wing Chun library. Some books absolutely horrible. Some pretty good. If anyone had a question about a specific title, I likely have it in my library and may be able to answer.
> 
> Some of my favorites:
> 1. WSL/Peterson's "Pointing Finger" is a good read and I seem to pick up on something new every time I read it. A new expanded edition is back in print. Some additional articles have been added, but the main text remains the same.
> ...



Thanks for the reply. I'm definitely not looking WC outside Ip Man family. Not that its not interesting, just not what I am looking for. I believe I do have the newer expanded version of WSL / Peterson's book.


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## Cephalopod (Aug 6, 2014)

Robert Chu's _Complete Wing Chun_ is a good read, mainly for the nonpartisan background information on the various lineages.

    I own Belonoha's Compendiums, both of them, a walloping thousand pages worth. I picked them up for reference material and I thought that, given the sheer mass of these tomes, there would be plenty of stuff in there to pique my interest. In the end I found that half the material was abstract to the point of pretentiousness and the other half was highly colored by a dogmatic view on what is 'Good' wing chun and what is 'Bad' wing chun. 

   This may be inevitable when you create a treatise of wing chun by essentially documenting your personal jouney therein.  For this reason, I have learned more useful things that reflect on my own wing chun by reading books that are not about wing chun.  I am currently sinking my teeth into Rory Miller's _Facing Violence_. Good stuff!


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## Vajramusti (Aug 6, 2014)

Actually I do not recommend  books. I recommend searching for a good instructor.
I f you cant find one- study witha top flight instructor of some  other martial art.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 6, 2014)

I have randy williams books from the 80's which are a collector item..cost me $200.00 for 6 books I think..now I can get $800.00 for each book..It's by far the best wing chun book ever written..has the whole complete wing chun system..


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## Vajramusti (Aug 6, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have randy williams books from the 80's which are a collector item..cost me $200.00 for 6 books I think..now I can get $800.00 for each book..It's by far the best wing chun book ever written..has the whole complete wing chun system..


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I think we have different  views on this. That is ok.


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## KPM (Aug 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Actually I do not recommend  books. I recommend searching for a good instructor.
> I f you cant find one- study witha top flight instructor of some  other martial art.



From the original post on this thread:
*What are some of the books others here have and reccomend? Not for actually learning the art from a book, but just as an aid or even 'coffee table book' to read in spare time.

*


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## KPM (Aug 7, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> I have randy williams books from the 80's which are a collector item..cost me $200.00 for 6 books I think..now I can get $800.00 for each book..It's by far the best wing chun book ever written..has the whole complete wing chun system..



I agree.  I no longer practice what Randy Williams shows in those books, but they are very well done with lots of detail.  He goes more in-depth with variations on things than I have ever seen in any other book.  Probably goes over more than you really need.  I would describe his version of Wing Chun as somewhat "elaborate."   But good stuff that can inspire lots of additional training and application ideas.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 7, 2014)

KPM said:


> I agree.  I no longer practice what Randy Williams shows in those books, but they are very well done with lots of detail.  He goes more in-depth with variations on things than I have ever seen in any other book.  Probably goes over more than you really need.  I would describe his version of Wing Chun as somewhat "elaborate."   But good stuff that can inspire lots of additional training and application ideas.


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Those books add to the current sad state of wing chun---

0n coffee tables? Not mine.


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 7, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> Actually I do not recommend books. I recommend searching for a good instructor.
> I f you cant find one- study witha top flight instructor of some other martial art.



Then why chime in on a post asking other's opinions about WC books? 

I have an instructor. I also like to read. Why wouldn't I want a good WC/WT book to pick up now and then? That was my stated aim.

Also, maybe a more nuanced questions would be what are the best books readily available and that would not cost me an arm / leg / first born child to buy?


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## geezer (Aug 7, 2014)

PiedmontChun said:


> Then why chime in on a post asking other's opinions about WC books?
> 
> I have an instructor. I also like to read. Why wouldn't I want a good WC/WT book to pick up now and then? That was my stated aim.
> 
> Also, maybe a more nuanced questions would be what are the best books readily available and that would not cost me an arm / leg / first born child to buy?



Since you train in WT, you might as well collect LT's little paperbacks of the forms and Chi-sau sections. Yes, they are self-promoting, yes they are kind of tacky, and yes, in some cases certain details are deliberately ommitted. On the other hand, they do have a lot of stuff that anybody coming from an LT WT background  should know.

On the other hand, if you are looking for a really classy, all-encompassing book that does justice to all lineages ...well that book ain't been writ and, most likely, never will be.


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## OzPaul (Aug 7, 2014)

In no particular order, Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun by Leung Ting is a great book, David Peterson's Look beyond the pointing finger is another enjoyable read and insight into WSL, Wayne Benoloha's Wing Chun compendium 1 & 2 has a lot of information and good up to date images. I have a few others from William Cheung, Randy Williams, Robert Chu etc.  However the ones listed are my pick of the bunch.


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## KPM (Aug 8, 2014)

OzPaul said:


> In no particular order, Roots and Branches of Wing Tsun by Leung Ting is a great book,.



Just a caution...this one contains a lot of inaccurate information.


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## Kwan Sau (Aug 8, 2014)

KPM said:


> Just a caution...this one contains a lot of inaccurate information.



Care to share an example KPM? Was thinking of buying this book but now am interested to hear your thoughts on it. Thx.


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## KPM (Aug 8, 2014)

Kwan Sau said:


> Care to share an example KPM? Was thinking of buying this book but now am interested to hear your thoughts on it. Thx.



I haven't looked at it in a long time.  I'd have to thumb through it to refresh my memory.  I do remember it had a lot of inaccurate info about Yuen Kay Shan.  If you are interested in history get "Complete Wing Chun" by Robert Chu and Rene Ritchie.  It also has its flaws, but much better than "Roots & Branches."


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## PiedmontChun (Aug 8, 2014)

Thanks for all the responses. The Leung Ting books on the forms and chi sao do interest me so even a modest reccomendation from another LT lineage person sounds promising.


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## yak sao (Aug 8, 2014)

geezer said:


> if you are looking for a really classy, all-encompassing book that does justice to all lineages ...well that book ain't been writ and, most likely, never will be.



Because we can't get quit bickering long enough.....hell, we'd probably never get past what the title should be.

A few weeks ago, there was a week long international tai chi symposium here where I live. They had the grandmasters from each of the five tai chi families demonstrating and holding workshops. There were tai chi practitioners from all over the world sharing their arts and learning from one another.

Can you believe this crap???? they were actually sharing knowledge and getting along with each other.
Silly tai chi people...you would never see that kind of behavior in the wing chun world...or is it wing tsun?, or ving tsun?, or...... oh never mind!


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 9, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> I think we have different  views on this. That is ok.



What's your view? I have seen every wc book out there there is nothing that even comes close.


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## geezer (Aug 9, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> What's your view? I have seen every wc book out there there is nothing that even comes close.



Are you still talking about Randy Williams books? I remember looking through those ages ago. Nice looking, but Mr. Williams WC is not my cup of tea. Each to their own. Here are some fairly recent clips of him doing chi-sau. Again, not my cup of tea.


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## mook jong man (Aug 9, 2014)

geezer said:


> Are you still talking about Randy Williams books? I remember looking through those ages ago. Nice looking, but Mr. Williams WC is not my cup of tea. Each to their own. Here are some fairly recent clips of him doing chi-sau. Again, not my cup of tea.



This little girl has better chi sau than what was on display in those clips.

[video=youtube_share;nER2C53EUCY]http://youtu.be/nER2C53EUCY[/video]


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## KPM (Aug 10, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> This little girl has better chi sau than what was on display in those clips.



Sheez guys, what do you want?  That first clip of Williams looked like crap because Chi Sao is not a fight.  Obasi asks someone to roll with him and then tries to turn it into a fight.  That's his typical M.O.   You can't really hear what Williams asked him, but Obasi's reply was "no, not at all" and Williams seemed a little ticked off.  I would imagine he had asked Obasi something like "what's up, are you trying to turn this into a fight?"  Someone in the audience called out..."go soft! go soft!"  

The second clip Williams is Chi Sao'ing with a guy that obviously doesn't even know how to roll.  My guess is he is from a CMA other than Wing Chun and wanted to get and feel for Wing Chun's version of Chi Sao.  Then he  starts throwing cheap shots that  Williams answers.   I've always maintained that Chi Sao is NOT a sparring match.  The minute people start trying to score on the other guy in a "I gotcha" kind of exchange it quickly degrades and looks like crap.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 10, 2014)

geezer said:


> Are you still talking about Randy Williams books? I remember looking through those ages ago. Nice looking, but Mr. Williams WC is not my cup of tea. Each to their own. Here are some fairly recent clips of him doing chi-sau. Again, not my cup of tea.




You have to take Randy Williams out of the picture and just judge the book on content by it's self. That is how I look at it not the person doing it.


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## geezer (Aug 10, 2014)

KPM said:


> The second clip Williams is Chi Sao'ing with a guy that obviously doesn't even know how to roll.  My guess is he is from a CMA other than Wing Chun and wanted to get and feel for Wing Chun's version of Chi Sao.  Then he  starts throwing cheap shots that  Williams answers.   I've always maintained that Chi Sao is NOT a sparring match.  The minute people start trying to score on the other guy in a "I gotcha" kind of exchange it quickly degrades and looks like crap.



I'd say that you might have a point Keith, but then I saw these:











Here _Joseph Ng_ and _Shawn Obasi_ are playing chi-sau and there is no ego problem. They both seem to realize that it is an exercise ...even a game, if you will. Not fighting. Each gets in shots according to their particular abilities, acknowledges the other and there is no attitude problem. 

When these guys worked with _Randy Williams_, the chemistry was very different. When Mr. Ng slips in those quick shots to the head, he doesn't laugh and say "nice one" like Obasi. Instead he says something about "watch the face" and starts throwing head butts. Obasi, in turn started using his considerable size advantage to humble Williams. I guess these guess just don't like each other.


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## KPM (Aug 11, 2014)

Hey Steve!

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to defend Williams.  I have nothing to do with him.  The problem is we seldom have a context for the videos posted.   On the set of videos you posted Obasi is at Stephen Ng's home (at least it looks like it).  So he likely "toned down" his aggressive Chi Sao approach to a big extent.  Of course that's not to say that Williams doesn't also have an ego or a bit of an aggressive approach!  I've heard some stories that I won't repeat here!  That likely explains the prior videos to some extent.

My main point was that when Chi Sao becomes a fight, it stops looking like good Chi Sao.  

At little off topic....I had never heard of "invisible" Buddha Hand Wing Chun or Stephen Ng before.   FutSao Buddha Hand I have heard of.  Is it the same thing?   And I still didn't see Stephen Ng using any kind of actual rolling platform in the second videos either.


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## futsaowingchun (Aug 11, 2014)

KPM said:


> Hey Steve!
> 
> Don't get me wrong.  I'm not trying to defend Williams.  I have nothing to do with him.  The problem is we seldom have a context for the videos posted.   On the set of videos you posted Obasi is at Stephen Ng's home (at least it looks like it).  So he likely "toned down" his aggressive Chi Sao approach to a big extent.  Of course that's not to say that Williams doesn't also have an ego or a bit of an aggressive approach!  I've heard some stories that I won't repeat here!  That likely explains the prior videos to some extent.
> 
> ...



Invisible Buddha Hand is Sifu Ng own style he created which is loosely based on what he learned from my teacher Henry Leung although  very different. It has more of a pushing platform not a rolling one like Ip Man style. Sifu Ng was also one of my teachers.


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## Vajramusti (Aug 11, 2014)

futsaowingchun said:


> What's your view? I have seen every wc book out there there is nothing that even comes close.


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I don't think that any video or book comes close to hands on learning from a competent teacher who in turn has learned from a competent teacher.

Most of my sifu's books are out of print except for the first on the slt- which has been badly imitated by some including Williiams. Chao and Weakland  series are not to bad but concepts are underexplained. Ip Man never wrote a book and taught only a handful for a long term.

Folks loyal to Cheung and Leung lineage of course will find their clan head's books useful for the details of what they do.I don't have a problem with that.


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