# Most obscure martial arts?



## Ivan (Jan 29, 2021)

What are some martial arts that you have heard of (or preferably, come across personally) that are relatively unknown to the vast majority of the martial arts community?

As an example, my old Capoeira teacher from a couple of years ago told me of a fourth style of Capoeira. The known three dictate the rhythms and speed at which movements are executed. However, she told me about a fourth style that was completely made for street fighting which was created by an old mestre, but she said he died before he could pass it on properly, and thus the style died with him. 

It's possible it might more well known than I think, but that is just a personal example. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the martial arts stated were of African or European descent as martial arts are commonly associated with Asia.


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

Ivan said:


> What are some martial arts that you have heard of (or preferably, come across personally) that are relatively unknown to the vast majority of the martial arts community?
> 
> As an example, my old Capoeira teacher from a couple of years ago told me of a fourth style of Capoeira. The known three dictate the rhythms and speed at which movements are executed. However, she told me about a fourth style that was completely made for street fighting which was created by an old mestre, but she said he died before he could pass it on properly, and thus the style died with him.
> 
> It's possible it might more well known than I think, but that is just a personal example. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the martial arts stated were of African or European descent as martial arts are commonly associated with Asia.


lancashire clogg fighting,  that putting on a pair of wooden soled shoes and kicking your opponent in the shin til he or you gives in or someones leg breaks.

its a bit niche, but really hard core


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2021)

Ivan said:


> What are some martial arts that you have heard of (or preferably, come across personally) that are relatively unknown to the vast majority of the martial arts community?
> 
> As an example, my old Capoeira teacher from a couple of years ago told me of a fourth style of Capoeira. The known three dictate the rhythms and speed at which movements are executed. However, she told me about a fourth style that was completely made for street fighting which was created by an old mestre, but she said he died before he could pass it on properly, and thus the style died with him.
> 
> It's possible it might more well known than I think, but that is just a personal example. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the martial arts stated were of African or European descent as martial arts are commonly associated with Asia.



There is a machete style of capoeira you rarely see as well.


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## Ivan (Jan 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a machete style of capoeira you rarely see as well.


No way! That actually sounds insane...


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## Lisa lyons (Jan 29, 2021)

handbags at dawn


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 29, 2021)

There are not a whole lot that have heard of Xingyiquan, but there are a lot of Chinese Martial Arts that most martial artists don't know about


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## jobo (Jan 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a machete style of capoeira you rarely see as well.


i suspect doing those moves armed with a machete has a high injury rate rate


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## WaterGal (Jan 29, 2021)

There used to be a guy in my county who founded his own style of karate that he taught out of his garage. He was the, like, 15th dan black belt high grandmaster or whatever. A quick google search says he moved and now teaches his same program out of his garage in another city. I'd say that's pretty obscure lol.

(There are lots of people like this, btw.)


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 29, 2021)

drop bear said:


> There is a machete style of capoeira you rarely see as well.



I've never seen it but I think I had a couple of NCOs in my platoon describe it when I was in the the 82nd Airborne Division about 1961.  I think they had seen it in Panama.  I'm pretty sure they didn't give it a name but described how they would turn their machetes so the flat of the blade struck just before they hit their opponent.  So I say they described it, but actually i am only guessing what you describe and what they described are the same.  Sounded like something that required a lot of control.

EDIT:  Good Grief!  Somebody hit me and wake me from my nightmare, I think I just agreed with @drop bear.  How could I?    

drop bear: do you know anything more about it?


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 29, 2021)

When I was on Okinawa about 1963-64, I heard of a martial art in Japan that evidently used nothing but pressure points.  It could render a person down immediately.  Never saw it, and having been a MA practitioner for a while now I suspect the person who said he had seen it was describing a currently better known MA such as Aikido or Dai Ito Ryu, itself known by name but in practice rather unknown.

Something like Hapkido, which although everybody says they know about and can tell you lots about it (true or not), actually remains rather unknown.


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## drop bear (Jan 29, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> I've never seen it but I think I had a couple of NCOs in my platoon describe it when I was in the the 82nd Airborne Division about 1961.  I think they had seen it in Panama.  I'm pretty sure they didn't give it a name but described how they would turn their machetes so the flat of the blade struck just before they hit their opponent.  So I say they described it, but actually i am only guessing what you describe and what they described are the same.  Sounded like something that required a lot of control.
> 
> EDIT:  Good Grief!  Somebody hit me and wake me from my nightmare, I think I just agreed with @drop bear.  How could I?
> 
> drop bear: do you know anything more about it?



Yeah. It is called macelele and it is a very arty version of fighting.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 30, 2021)

Pretty recent vid on this


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## Lisa lyons (Jan 30, 2021)

anyone try this?


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## RTKDCMB (Jan 30, 2021)

Joe Son Do; it had only one practitioner, and he wasn't very good at it.


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## Deleted member 39746 (Jan 30, 2021)

Its a cop out, but some people do legitimately view the lightsabre technique things as martial arts, so i would put them as obscure.    As they are pretty obscure 


Its not a martial art, but shin hitting is a sport, two peopel hold onto each other and take turns hitting each others shins with their shins.


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## skribs (Jan 30, 2021)

One thing I wanted to try when I was getting into martial arts was Baguazhang.  It's an art built around movement in circles.  I was initially looking into martial arts as a way to defend an initial attack enough to draw my gun, and so I wanted an art built on escaping footwork.

There was, of course, nothing in my area.  So I picked Taekwondo since I had prior experience as a kid.  Interestingly enough, the Hapkido covers the footwork I wanted.  At some point I'd like to combine Hapkido with Gun Fu for a very specific self-defense system.


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## O'Malley (Jan 30, 2021)

The most obscure would probably be stuff like family martial arts, as by definition they don't get taught to many people. There are also small offshoots of existing arts like Hatenkai aikido, as well as non-competitive bodywork stuff like Hino Budo.



oftheherd11 said:


> When I was on Okinawa about 1963-64, I heard of a martial art in Japan that evidently used nothing but pressure points.  It could render a person down immediately.  Never saw it, and having been a MA practitioner for a while now I suspect the person who said he had seen it was describing a currently better known MA such as Aikido or Dai Ito Ryu, itself known by name but in practice rather unknown.
> 
> Something like Hapkido, which although everybody says they know about and can tell you lots about it (true or not), actually remains rather unknown.



Daito ryu practice is pretty well-known compared to most koryu, I'd say. And the difference between daito ryu and traditional aikido is pretty thin. The founder of aikido started as a daito ryu instructor and did not alter his teachings until his death. Also, there's no emphasis on pressure points in aikido or in DR.

More probably, the art you heard of was some form of kyusho jutsu/dim mak. However, pressure points typically form a very small part of traditional styles because that knowledge has limited use. Most dim mak systems I've come across are pretty modern and often capitalise on exoticism and the "death touch" fantasy.


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## BrendanF (Jan 30, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> Joe Son Do; it had only one practitioner, and he wasn't very good at it.



Ah the exquisite art of blocking punches with your balls.

Hey! Another Perthite!


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## oftheherd11 (Jan 30, 2021)

Daito ryu practice is pretty well-known compared to most koryu, I'd say. And the difference between daito ryu and traditional aikido is pretty thin. The founder of aikido started as a daito ryu instructor and did not alter his teachings until his death. Also, there's no emphasis on pressure points in aikido or in DR.

More probably, the art you heard of was some form of kyusho jutsu/dim mak. However, pressure points typically form a very small part of traditional styles because that knowledge has limited use. Most dim mak systems I've come across are pretty modern and often capitalise on exoticism and the "death touch" fantasy.[/QUOTE]

I don't try to be familiar with all martial arts so I don't know much about Daito ryu, even though my art is thought to have a connection with it.  For the same reason I can't confirm nor deny that it and Aikido are very similar.  It just doesn't sound right.  As to Dim mak, I think that has been discredited already.


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## isshinryuronin (Jan 30, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> Most dim mak systems I've come across are pretty modern and often capitalise on exoticism and the "death touch" fantasy.



The death touch is a fantasy??!!   I just wasted $39.95 plus postage?  Say it ain't so.


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## _Simon_ (Jan 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Its a cop out, but some people do legitimately view the lightsabre technique things as martial arts, so i would put them as obscure.    As they are pretty obscure
> 
> 
> Its not a martial art, but shin hitting is a sport, two peopel hold onto each other and take turns hitting each others shins with their shins.


Oh and that strange slapping competition! I think it was Russian? That's brutal...


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## jobo (Jan 31, 2021)

Rat said:


> Its a cop out, but some people do legitimately view the lightsabre technique things as martial arts, so i would put them as obscure.    As they are pretty obscure
> 
> 
> Its not a martial art, but shin hitting is a sport, two peopel hold onto each other and take turns hitting each others shins with their shins.


im not sure that viewing a fighting technque for a non exsistant weapon as legitimate counts as legitimate


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## elder999 (Jan 31, 2021)

I know there are several styles of gung fu where the practitioners invite spirits to possess them...

Research Notes: Spirit Possession in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts.


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## jobo (Jan 31, 2021)

elder999 said:


> I know there are several styles of gung fu where the practitioners invite spirits to possess them...
> 
> Research Notes: Spirit Possession in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts.


thats possibly one of its better stratergies


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## elder999 (Jan 31, 2021)

When I was in Japan, I saw something called _taido_.

I've often argued that it's martiaal _performance_ art, but here ypu go.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jan 31, 2021)

elder999 said:


> When I was in Japan, I saw something called _taido_.
> 
> I've often argued that it's martiaal _performance_ art, but here ypu go.


Yeah, that looks more like XMA than MA to me.


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## elder999 (Jan 31, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Yeah, that looks more like XMA than MA to me.


Very popular, though, and still around after 40 odd years since I first saw it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jan 31, 2021)

I’ll mention two. My primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) is obscure compared to many others. At its height, there were probably fewer than 80 schools. Not tiny, but pretty obscure compared to Ueshiba’s Aikido, for instance. 

And for a more obscure art, I had a chance to attend a seminar in Yanagi-Ryu Aiki Bugei. If the origins I heard are accurate, it was once a family style. I think the Soke (actually the appropriate title for an inherited style, I think) never had more than a few students at a time.


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## elder999 (Jan 31, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I’ll mention two. My primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) is obscure compared to many others. At its height, there were probably fewer than 80 schools. Not tiny, but pretty obscure compared to Ueshiba’s Aikido, for instance.
> 
> And for a more obscure art, I had a chance to attend a seminar in Yanagi-Ryu Aiki Bugei. If the origins I heard are accurate, it was once a family style. I think the Soke (actually the appropriate title for an inherited style, I think) never had more than a few students at a time.



As a New Yorker, Nihon Goshin Aikido is not so obscure to me. I met Robert MacEwen sensei at many events over the years.

Likewise, the Yanagi family style of Don Angier Soke lives on through more than one of his students, who began teaching while he was still alive and changed the name of what they taught at his behest-at least, that's my understanding....at least one of them was a member of this forum once upon a time....


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## _Simon_ (Jan 31, 2021)

elder999 said:


> When I was in Japan, I saw something called _taido_.
> 
> I've often argued that it's martiaal _performance_ art, but here ypu go.


Taido looks awesome haha.. although have seen better video examples.. the ones really good at it have incredible body control and can generate crazy amount of power with some of those kicks... seems like such a dynamic martial art, aLOT of movement almost a mix of karate and capoeira..


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## wab25 (Feb 1, 2021)

Hawaiian Lua - not the most obscure art... but not many people have heard of it. It was a huge influence on Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.






I have trained with Kumu Manu a few times...


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 1, 2021)

elder999 said:


> As a New Yorker, Nihon Goshin Aikido is not so obscure to me. I met Robert MacEwen sensei at many events over the years.
> 
> Likewise, the Yanagi family style of Don Angier Soke lives on through more than one of his students, who began teaching while he was still alive and changed the name of what they taught at his behest-at least, that's my understanding....at least one of them was a member of this forum once upon a time....


New York is certainly the epicenter for NGA. At one time, I think 2/3 of the schools were within 2-3 hours of Manhattan.


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## _Simon_ (Feb 2, 2021)

Oh and there's an obscure one I recently heard about called I-Kan-Do. I hear it's a really positive martial art!


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2021)

RTKDCMB said:


> Joe Son Do; it had only one practitioner, and he wasn't very good at it.



It is now a "prison fighting system".


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2021)

I'm sure we have all come across self-started MA's that could be considered "obscure".

Are we defining it as styles no one has heard of, or styles that aren't widely spread?  I think there are many Chinese arts that fall into that category and many Japanese koryu arts as well.


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## punisher73 (Feb 2, 2021)

elder999 said:


> I know there are several styles of gung fu where the practitioners invite spirits to possess them...
> 
> Research Notes: Spirit Possession in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts.



I believe there are some Silat systems that do this as well.


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## Ivan (Feb 2, 2021)

skribs said:


> One thing I wanted to try when I was getting into martial arts was Baguazhang.  It's an art built around movement in circles.  I was initially looking into martial arts as a way to defend an initial attack enough to draw my gun, and so I wanted an art built on escaping footwork.
> 
> There was, of course, nothing in my area.  So I picked Taekwondo since I had prior experience as a kid.  Interestingly enough, the Hapkido covers the footwork I wanted.  At some point I'd like to combine Hapkido with Gun Fu for a very specific self-defense system.


I think that martial art is used in the Ip Man fight scene where he fights all the masters on a big round table.


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## Ivan (Feb 2, 2021)

punisher73 said:


> I'm sure we have all come across self-started MA's that could be considered "obscure".
> 
> Are we defining it as styles no one has heard of, or styles that aren't widely spread?  I think there are many Chinese arts that fall into that category and many Japanese koryu arts as well.


I guess both. In hindsight, obscure is quite a relative term.


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## skribs (Feb 2, 2021)

Ivan said:


> I think that martial art is used in the Ip Man fight scene where he fights all the masters on a big round table.



Maybe.  Circular footwork is found in a lot of arts, not even specific to Chinese arts.


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## BrendanF (Feb 3, 2021)

skribs said:


> Maybe.  Circular footwork is found in a lot of arts, not even specific to Chinese arts.



It is.  The head honcho of the local MA guild is (portraying) a baguazhang guy.


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## O'Malley (Feb 3, 2021)

oftheherd11 said:


> I don't try to be familiar with all martial arts so I don't know much about Daito ryu, even though my art is thought to have a connection with it.  For the same reason I can't confirm nor deny that it and Aikido are very similar.  It just doesn't sound right.  As to Dim mak, I think that has been discredited already.



For the founder of aikido, Morihei Ueshiba, as well as his early students, they were pretty much the same thing. In successive generations, the mainline art was heavily modified. It's well-documented so if you're interested there's lots to read on this issue.



elder999 said:


> I know there are several styles of gung fu where the practitioners invite spirits to possess them...
> 
> Research Notes: Spirit Possession in the Southern Chinese Martial Arts.





punisher73 said:


> I believe there are some Silat systems that do this as well.



If I'm not mistaken, it's relatively common in koryu as well. Ueshiba also practiced it extensively for both his spiritual and martial training (getting possessed by "gods"). Some of this knowledge has been passed down, although the exercise here is pared-down (scroll down for the English version): Chinkon, expliqué par SAITO H. Sensei - Aikido Blog (.net)


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 3, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it's relatively common in koryu as well. Ueshiba also practiced it extensively for both his spiritual and martial training (getting possessed by "gods"). Some of this knowledge has been passed down, although the exercise here is pared-down (scroll down for the English version): Chinkon, expliqué par SAITO H. Sensei - Aikido Blog (.net)



The idea of spirit possession is valid only if seen as it being generated from within, not by some outside source, IMO.  Others may have a more religious or supernatural viewpoint.  The spirit of monkey or tiger fighting, say, is based on our internal concept of monkeys or tigers. 

If we have no experience with such animals, there is no source or concept for this spirit to exist and enter our consciousness.  Having a concept of them, we can, if we choose, allow it to "enter" our active consciousness and influence our fighting style.  We have many concepts, emotions and spirits within us.  It's just a matter of allowing them to become activated (hopefully in a controlled fashion) and channeling them into action.  We are, then, self-possessed. 

The quoted blog's diagram showing the breathing method in meditation has no direct bearing on spirit possession, other than putting one in a relaxed, chi flowing state.  I first saw this (similar) diagram in an old (1600's Chinese) book entitled, _The Secret of the Golden Flower._  I would expect this breathing method is common in many meditation styles.


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## O'Malley (Feb 3, 2021)

Maybe a bit of context would help. _Chinkon kishin_ was a shamanistic practice of spirit possession, which was revived by Deguchi Onisaburo of the Oomoto sect. Ueshiba became a follower of Deguchi and regularly practiced the trance techniques learned from him.

The original method involves a medium (i.e. the guy who's going to be possessed), a helper and a koto player (seems like the music helps). The medium first calms the spirit (_chinkon_) then the divinity enters his body (_kishin_). 

The practice was abandoned by the Oomoto sect because it was reported to be dangerous (unfortunately I don't have any details about incidents involving _chinkon kishin_) but Ueshiba continued to practice it. The method described above was shared by the son of Ueshiba's closest student, and seems to be derived from the original chinkon kishin, although I ignore the extent of H. Saito's knowledge of that practice.


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## jobo (Feb 3, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> Maybe a bit of context would help. _Chinkon kishin_ was a shamanistic practice of spirit possession, which was revived by Deguchi Onisaburo of the Oomoto sect. Ueshiba became a follower of Deguchi and regularly practiced the trance techniques learned from him.
> 
> The original method involves a medium (i.e. the guy who's going to be possessed), a helper and a koto player (seems like the music helps). The medium first calms the spirit (_chinkon_) then the divinity enters his body (_kishin_).
> 
> The practice was abandoned by the Oomoto sect because it was reported to be dangerous (unfortunately I don't have any details about incidents involving _chinkon kishin_) but Ueshiba continued to practice it. The method described above was shared by the son of Ueshiba's closest student, and seems to be derived from the original chinkon kishin, although I ignore the extent of H. Saito's knowledge of that practice.


im not suprised, i think demonic possession, probably  counts as dangerous or at best ill advised


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> ....The method described above was shared by the son of Ueshiba's closest student, and seems to be derived from the original *chinkon kishin*....



I jumped into the middle of this thread and started skim-reading it. I was wondering why the heck Uyeshiba was involved with _*chicken kissin'*_ . Then I found my glasses. 

My reading comprehension really seems to be going downhill these days.


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## O'Malley (Feb 4, 2021)

I feel you. At first, I thought spirit possession was referring to Drunken Fist Kung Fu.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 6, 2021)

Ivan said:


> What are some martial arts that you have heard of (or preferably, come across personally) that are relatively unknown to the vast majority of the martial arts community?



It can come down to the fields in which one travels, being a koryu guy dominantly, there are any number of schools that are very well known in the area that, if I were to list them, would just be meaningless to many, such as Shindo Muso Ryu, Morishige Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Kashima Shinto Ryu, Tamiya Ryu, Hoki Ryu, Hozoin Ryu Takada-ha, and many, many more... but even within koryu, there are very rare arts themselves, such as Unkou Ryu (a small kenjutsu school that, today, has it's entire membership comprising the head of the school and his son), Chikubujima Ryu (a bojutsu school which has a total of less than 10 practitioners, including a friend of mine), Higo Shinkage Ryu (a branch of Shinkage Ryu that stems from Kamizumi Ise-no-Kami Nobutsuna's nephew and student, completely independent of the more famous Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), Shinto Hatakage Ryu Iai (a very small branch of Tosa Iai taught in one dojo in Japan, with one branch in Michigan), or arts that have been subsumed into other arts, such as Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, which is today a part of Suio Ryu, and so on, and so on, and so on.

We could then look at, instead of individual schools, particular subdivisions of martial skill-sets (not something I'd class as particular martial arts, more categorisations, or classifications of certain types), which gives us (in Japanese arts) approaches such as Hojutsu (feudal gunnery), Hojojutsu (arresting cord methods for tying up prisoners), Chigirikijutsu (a particular composite weapon consisting of a short staff, typically around 4 foot, with a weighted chain attached... today, only two schools teach this weapon, being Kiraku Ryu and Araki Ryu), O-naginata (a large version of a naginata, a short curved blade on a long haft, not too dissimilar to a Western halberd, found in Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, and Chokugen Ryu, where it is the primary weapon), or Kagitsuki Naginata (a specialist naginata with cross-bars, taught today in Toda-ha Buko Ryu and Shingyoto Ryu), Ko-naginata (a small version of a naginata, taught only in Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu), and so on... Tessenjutsu (a short, closed fan, found as an auxiliary weapon in a number of classical jujutsu schools), and far, far more.

Or, to leave Japan, we could look at Jogo de Pau, a Portugeuse short staff fighting methods... or Zulu stick fighting, maintained as a tribal ritual centred around maturity festivals...there are any number of variants of Indonesian arts, as well as variants on Filipino systems... there are many groups studying old European manuals, such as Fiore de Liberi, Lichtenhaur, Talhoffer, and so on, in a field known as HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts), where the aim is to re-interpret and re-discover the classical skills of medieval Europe through the writings of some of the more famous extant texts today... 

As with any of this, of course, "obscure" will be subjective to the person answering... none of these are obscure to me, but might easily be for others.



elder999 said:


> When I was in Japan, I saw something called _taido_.
> 
> I've often argued that it's martiaal _performance_ art, but here ypu go.



Ha, yeah, I'd agree with that assessment. It was created in 1965 by an Okinawan karate practitioner (Seiken Shukumine), with the aim of being more of a "social club", rather than focused on combative methodologies, hence it being more about challenging your body to do more "impressive" actions, lending itself to a more "showy" approach. In fact, they market themselves as being ideal for parkour practitioners who want to add some martial methods to their resume, as well as people interested in "tricking" and the like (hence the XMA similarities).



gpseymour said:


> I’ll mention two. My primary art (Nihon Goshin Aikido) is obscure compared to many others. At its height, there were probably fewer than 80 schools. Not tiny, but pretty obscure compared to Ueshiba’s Aikido, for instance.



Ha, "fewer than 80 schools"? I can name a dozen arts with fewer than 80 students... in a number of them, fewer than 8!



gpseymour said:


> And for a more obscure art, I had a chance to attend a seminar in Yanagi-Ryu Aiki Bugei. If the origins I heard are accurate, it was once a family style. I think the Soke (actually the appropriate title for an inherited style, I think) never had more than a few students at a time.



Yanagi Ryu is an interesting case study... it claims a rather ancient history, like it's related art of Daito Ryu, but likely is simply a form of off-shoot of that school. Yoshida Kotaro was a student/contemporary of Sokaku Takeda, studying Daito Ryu with him (as well as claiming a family line of a very similar art, but more likely trained in Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu, itself an off-shoot of Takagi Ryu jujutsu), who taught his son Yoshida Kenji in the early half of the 20th Century, who moved to the US not long before WWII. He then, in turn, taught Don Angier, who restructured and re-named the art "Shidare Yanagi Ryu Aiki Budo". In turn, one of the main students of Don Angier was James Williams, founder of Nami Ryu (another modern Western take on this art). Today, the art is headed by Angier's adoptive grandson, Jeremy Breazeale. The only name change I am aware of is the addition of "Yoshida-ha" to the beginning (basically "Yoshida branch"), making it now known as "Yoshida-ha Shidare Yanagi Ryu".



O'Malley said:


> If I'm not mistaken, it's relatively common in koryu as well. Ueshiba also practiced it extensively for both his spiritual and martial training (getting possessed by "gods"). Some of this knowledge has been passed down, although the exercise here is pared-down (scroll down for the English version): Chinkon, expliqué par SAITO H. Sensei - Aikido Blog (.net)



No, not really... in fact, quite the opposite. I'm familiar with a number of "exorcism" rituals in classical (koryu) arts to remove a spirit from possessing someone... most commonly a kitsune (fox spirit). I am unfamiliar with any koryu that actively seeks "possession" in any form.



isshinryuronin said:


> The idea of spirit possession is valid only if seen as it being generated from within, not by some outside source, IMO.  Others may have a more religious or supernatural viewpoint.  The spirit of monkey or tiger fighting, say, is based on our internal concept of monkeys or tigers.



The first thing to realise, in this context, is that the idea of "possession" in a Japanese religious context, is quite different to a Western religious one... secondly, the concept of "animalistic impressionism" fighting systems have little to nothing to do with any form of "spirit possession"... instead, it's a matter of observation of particular animals behaviours, then transposing that across to a human experience and body structure.

That said, there are numerous more "spiritual" practices, some of which have been subsumed into some martial traditions, along the lines of the "games" described in the article Elder linked... but I feel they were on the minimal side, and more related to religious rituals themselves. But it must be said that any form of "possession" has to come from external sources... invited or not. Otherwise, what exactly are you being "possessed" by?



isshinryuronin said:


> If we have no experience with such animals, there is no source or concept for this spirit to exist and enter our consciousness.  Having a concept of them, we can, if we choose, allow it to "enter" our active consciousness and influence our fighting style.  We have many concepts, emotions and spirits within us.  It's just a matter of allowing them to become activated (hopefully in a controlled fashion) and channeling them into action.  We are, then, self-possessed.


 
An interesting concept... this starts to play into the idea of any number of possession concepts... both from a Western religious standpoint, and an Eastern one. And can be a confronting one, depending on your faith. In a way, if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that anything you get "possessed" by has to be something you already have inside... which, from a religious perspective, denies the idea of possession. After all, if you're "possessed" by a divine spirit (in a Western sense), to have that come from inside, in a way, denies the divinity of that possession... which, naturally, adds to the conflict with certain beliefs. In an Eastern sense, particularly if dealing with a Japanese perspective, all aspects fo the world are naturally imbued with a form of spirit, as that's a central concept of Shinto. Of course, possession there is more about coming closer to the natural world than anything else, with the aforementioned "kitsune" possession being the variation/exception.



O'Malley said:


> Maybe a bit of context would help. _Chinkon kishin_ was a shamanistic practice of spirit possession, which was revived by Deguchi Onisaburo of the Oomoto sect. Ueshiba became a follower of Deguchi and regularly practiced the trance techniques learned from him.
> 
> The original method involves a medium (i.e. the guy who's going to be possessed), a helper and a koto player (seems like the music helps). The medium first calms the spirit (_chinkon_) then the divinity enters his body (_kishin_).
> 
> The practice was abandoned by the Oomoto sect because it was reported to be dangerous (unfortunately I don't have any details about incidents involving _chinkon kishin_) but Ueshiba continued to practice it. The method described above was shared by the son of Ueshiba's closest student, and seems to be derived from the original chinkon kishin, although I ignore the extent of H. Saito's knowledge of that practice.



With the note, of course, that the Omoto-kyo was a religious organisation... while it influenced Ueshiba to a great degree, and Aikido to a lesser one, it is not in any way related to martial teachings of traditions.



jobo said:


> im not suprised, i think demonic possession, probably  counts as dangerous or at best ill advised



Well, that's a very Judeo-Christian (Western) view of possession....


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## jobo (Feb 6, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> It can come down to the fields in which one travels, being a koryu guy dominantly, there are any number of schools that are very well known in the area that, if I were to list them, would just be meaningless to many, such as Shindo Muso Ryu, Morishige Ryu, Yagyu Shingan Ryu, Kashima Shinto Ryu, Tamiya Ryu, Hoki Ryu, Hozoin Ryu Takada-ha, and many, many more... but even within koryu, there are very rare arts themselves, such as Unkou Ryu (a small kenjutsu school that, today, has it's entire membership comprising the head of the school and his son), Chikubujima Ryu (a bojutsu school which has a total of less than 10 practitioners, including a friend of mine), Higo Shinkage Ryu (a branch of Shinkage Ryu that stems from Kamizumi Ise-no-Kami Nobutsuna's nephew and student, completely independent of the more famous Yagyu Shinkage Ryu), Shinto Hatakage Ryu Iai (a very small branch of Tosa Iai taught in one dojo in Japan, with one branch in Michigan), or arts that have been subsumed into other arts, such as Fukuhara-ha Masaki Ryu Kusarigamajutsu, which is today a part of Suio Ryu, and so on, and so on, and so on.
> 
> We could then look at, instead of individual schools, particular subdivisions of martial skill-sets (not something I'd class as particular martial arts, more categorisations, or classifications of certain types), which gives us (in Japanese arts) approaches such as Hojutsu (feudal gunnery), Hojojutsu (arresting cord methods for tying up prisoners), Chigirikijutsu (a particular composite weapon consisting of a short staff, typically around 4 foot, with a weighted chain attached... today, only two schools teach this weapon, being Kiraku Ryu and Araki Ryu), O-naginata (a large version of a naginata, a short curved blade on a long haft, not too dissimilar to a Western halberd, found in Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu, and Chokugen Ryu, where it is the primary weapon), or Kagitsuki Naginata (a specialist naginata with cross-bars, taught today in Toda-ha Buko Ryu and Shingyoto Ryu), Ko-naginata (a small version of a naginata, taught only in Shingetsu Muso Yanagi Ryu), and so on... Tessenjutsu (a short, closed fan, found as an auxiliary weapon in a number of classical jujutsu schools), and far, far more.
> 
> ...


do they have different demons in Asia? benign helpful demons? 

at its root either possession is real in which case its reasonable to considered it ill advised or it made up, in which case convincing people its real is ill advised


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 6, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> The first thing to realise, in this context, is that the idea of "possession" in a Japanese religious context, is quite different to a Western religious one... secondly, the concept of "animalistic impressionism" fighting systems have little to nothing to do with any form of "spirit possession"... instead, it's a matter of observation of particular animals behaviours, then transposing that across to a human experience and body structure.



Yes, this is exactly my point.  As I mentioned, "other's may have a more religious...viewpoint."  Wanting to avoid theological discussion (especially Western, and though Shinto animism is closer to the point, I'm still avoiding the divine,) narrowing my post to a physical martial arts, stylistic, perspective. 

I liked your very apt term, "animalistic impressionism." and "transporting that across to a human experience and body structure."  This is just what I meant by "self-possessed."  In this frame of reference, we are not possessed by an external power (a concept I personally don't hold.)  Rather, we direct our "impression" of an animal's style to influence the way we execute and visualize our fighting technique.  Not my way, but I can understand its use by other martial artists.

So, the above more or less shows my sense of "spiritualism" in MA.  It is not a supernatural or mystical thing, and I do not agree with marketing it as such.  I believe most MA's are fascinating enough in their own right.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 6, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Ha, "fewer than 80 schools"? I can name a dozen arts with fewer than 80 students... in a number of them, fewer than 8!


I wasn’t aware this was a competitive category.


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## Chris Parker (Feb 7, 2021)

jobo said:


> do they have different demons in Asia? benign helpful demons?



Understanding you were probably trying to be facetious, but yes, they have different "demons" in Asia. And the idea of "demon possession" is not a part of it.



jobo said:


> at its root either possession is real in which case its reasonable to considered it ill advised or it made up, in which case convincing people its real is ill advised



The point was that the very idea of "demon possession" is a Western, Judea-Christian concept, and is not what is found in Asian cultures. The closest would be things like kitsune, as mentioned, but it's quite removed from the Western concept. And the sooner you recognise that there are other approaches, the sooner you'll be in a position to start to grasp what is being said.



gpseymour said:


> I wasn’t aware this was a competitive category.



Ha, you mean this isn't a competition thread to see who can come up with the most obscure arts? I haven't even gotten into la boxe francais, or savate, or bartitsu...


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## jobo (Feb 7, 2021)

Chris Parker said:


> Understanding you were probably trying to be facetious, but yes, they have different "demons" in Asia. And the idea of "demon possession" is not a part of it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


that doesnt seem to get round the issue, that either possesion is real and therefore not a very good idea or completly ficticious and therefore not a very good idea  

as i supect its the latter
im strugling to find a posertive from people being deluded into beliveing in spirits  , particularly in return for money, but even gratis its not that hot


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## Tez3 (Feb 7, 2021)

In Judaism 'demons' are more seen as agents of G-d rather than the Satanic monsters of hell in Christianity, but then we don't believe in Satan either as a devil, rather it's the idea of evil or wrong doing the humans have that we shouldn't give way to. We don't believe in hell either. Possession by a spirit is something that is thought to be possible but not in the Christian manner. Often the spirit is beneficial, spirits were thought to be open to persuasion to leaving if they weren't friendly.
In the past, when medicine was primitive, spirit possession was often blamed for illnesses, they weren't raging demons though more something you put up with.
Jewish thought on  'demon' possession is not the same as the Christian idea.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 8, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I wasn’t aware this was a competitive category.


Ordinarily it's not. But the OP is looking for the most obscure one. So 8 students beats out 80 schools.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 8, 2021)

In the range of the 8 students thing..Nanzan Budokan Kenpo probably has close to that many active practitioners. When I last trained it, there were only 2 people (including my instructor) that had menkyo status (teaching status for that particular art, essentially), with another practitioner earning it one of my last months there. I think I earned shodensho menkyo (lowest level), but this was like 6/7 years back so my memories a bit fuzzy. A quick google search tells me that one more person is now an instructor.
So that's 5 people who have reached the rank, including the (founder? I'm not actually sure if he founded it, or it was passed on to just him, I'm sure I knew at one point...), at least one of whom (me) is not currently active, and as of the time I left probably 5 max other active practitioners.


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## jobo (Feb 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Ordinarily it's not. But the OP is looking for the most obscure one. So 8 students beats out 80 schools.


there quite a difference between things being obscure  and things being rare or hard to find


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> there quite a difference between things being obscure  and things being rare or hard to find



Jobo, I have to disagree with your comment here, although I do appreciate your humor. While I am a skeptic on religious matters, I should note that our Western concept of spirit possession as demonic and evil is only one narrow cultural perspective.

In West African and Caribbean cultures, spirit possession is seen as a means of communicating with ancestor spirits ....or the gods. Look up Vodoun or Candomblé. Not necessarily "evil" at all. Some would compare possession more with ...I don't know, maybe _communion?_- West African Vodun - Wikipedia -or check out spirit possession in Native American and Siberian traditions as well as Korean, Japanese of Filipino traditions and you will get an idea of what I'm talking about. These Aside from "possession" there are a lot of weird folk beliefs about spirits, demons, etc. and the martial arts. Ever hear of _anting anting?
_
Yeah, I know... off beat. Before I was a teacher, I was an artist. Before art school, my first degree was in social anthropology ...with a lot of time studying stuff like this. But that was over 40 years ago.


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2021)

jobo said:


> there quite a difference between things being obscure  and things being rare or hard to find



OK, maybe this is a British vs American thing, but to me the terms _rare_ and _obscure_ are pretty similar. A little help, please...


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 8, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK, maybe this is a British vs American thing, but to me the terms _rare_ and _obscure_ are pretty similar. A little help, please...


Jobo is very particular about the official definition of words, and ignores context. So even though Ivan's post made it clear what he was looking for, since he used obscure (which in technical meaning is closer to hidden then rare), jobo is arguing that my comment is off-base.


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## geezer (Feb 8, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Jobo is very particular about the official definition of words, and ignores context. So even though Ivan's post made it clear what he was looking for, since he used obscure (which in technical meaning is closer to hidden then rare), jobo is arguing that my comment is off-base.



Well, Jobo is very adept at finding obscure reasons to argue. He has a gift, alright!


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## jobo (Feb 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> OK, maybe this is a British vs American thing, but to me the terms _rare_ and _obscure_ are pretty similar. A little help, please...


well as above, literally it means hidden, but in context and popular usage it means not widely known about.

so Tristan da Cunha could be said to be an obscure island,  liberty' island is not such,

nether are rarer than the other( they are both islands) and they are as easy or difficult as each other to find on a map

or pandas are rare, but not at all unheard of, so not obscure


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2021)

jobo said:


> well as above, literally it means hidden, but in context and popular usage it means not widely known about.
> 
> so Tristan da Cunha could be said to be an obscure island,  liberty' island is not such,
> 
> ...




This is correct, obscure is hidden, rare not hidden but not plenty.


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## Tez3 (Feb 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> Well, Jobo is very adept at finding obscure reasons to argue. He has a gift, alright!




Not so much, it's not so much that he finds obscure reasons to argue it's more that he is a polemicist.


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## elder999 (Feb 9, 2021)

jobo said:


> there quite a difference between things being obscure  and things being rare or hard to find


In matters such as these, many know I usually turn to the well-worn _Merriam Webster english Language Technical Manual _(that's engineerpseak for "dictionary" 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) where we find that "obscure" has several meanings, at least one of which  would be correct usage for this thread:

1a: DARK, DIMthe obscure dusk of the shuttered room
b: shrouded in or hidden by darkness standing obscure in the deepest shade
c: *not clearly seen or easily distinguished :* FAINTobscure markings
2: n*ot readily understood or clearly expressed *also : MYSTERIOUSa slough of pretentious and obscure jargon— Philip Howard
3: *relatively unknown:* such as
a: REMOTE, SECLUDEDan obscure village
b: not prominent or famousan obscure poet


Definition of OBSCURE


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## jobo (Feb 9, 2021)

elder999 said:


> In matters such as these, many know I usually turn to the well-worn _Merriam Webster english Language Technical Manual _(that's engineerpseak for "dictionary"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i just said that above???????

but despite your intervention, " relatively unknown" still doesnt automatically  equate to rare or difficult to find, does it ? which is what i said to begin with,


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## geezer (Feb 9, 2021)

jobo said:


> i just said that above??????? ...,but despite your intervention, " relatively unknown" still doesnt equate to rare or difficult to find, does it ? which is what i said to begin with,



POLEMICIST!


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## jobo (Feb 9, 2021)

geezer said:


> POLEMICIST!


i had to look that up, its not often that happens.

im glad there a word for me, im usualy refered to as just ####ing awkward ,among the kinder things said


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 9, 2021)

jobo said:


> i just said that above???????
> 
> but despite your intervention, " relatively unknown" still doesnt automatically  equate to rare or difficult to find, does it ? which is what i said to begin with,


I don't think he was disagreeing/arguing with you.


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## jobo (Feb 9, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't think he was disagreeing/arguing with you.


well yes  he was, you could tell that from the fact he quoted me and then disagreed with the quote

admittedly,  his level of condescension ,  may have obscured that some what, even more he was disagreeing with something that was selectively  quoted in order that he had something to disagree with


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 9, 2021)

jobo said:


> well yes  he was, you could tell that from the fact he quoted me and then disagreed with the quote
> 
> admittedly,  his level of condescension ,  may have obscured that some what, even more he was disagreeing with something that was selectively  quoted in order that he had something to disagree with


You're right. Read through it again, had missed the " at least one of which would be correct usage for this thread:". Without that it reads like he's just giving the definition of obscure for reference.


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## elder999 (Feb 9, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> You're right. Read through it again, had missed the " at least one of which would be correct usage for this thread:". Without that it reads like he's just giving the definition of obscure for reference.


I quoted the post that initially raised the issue, and posted the definitive answer.

That it supports his post apparently means that I'm "condescending," and arguing, because.....well.....


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## Razznik (Feb 15, 2021)

Baji?


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## geezer (Feb 15, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Baji?



Bajiquan? Dunno if it's obscure, but it is pretty _rare_ around me. Not so rare in China I guess.  

Bajiquan International Training Center
Ba Ji Fist / Ba Ji Quan-Qufu Shaolin Kung Fu School
baji quan kung fu - Taizu Tradition Martial arts School


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## zzj (Feb 15, 2021)

Don't know if this qualifies, but the 'Practical Method of Chen Style Taijiquan' is an offshoot of the main style and deviates significantly in Methodology.

They specialize in Stand up grappling applications of Taijiquan.


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## Razznik (Feb 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> Bajiquan? Dunno if it's obscure, but it is pretty _rare_ around me. Not so rare in China I guess.
> 
> Bajiquan International Training Center
> Ba Ji Fist / Ba Ji Quan-Qufu Shaolin Kung Fu School
> baji quan kung fu - Taizu Tradition Martial arts School


Yes, originally I've wanted to train Baji, but I haven't found a school withing 100 km  sooooooooo yeah. And I don't want to spend all my funds to move to china xd I can't even speak mandarin.


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2021)

zzj said:


> Don't know if this qualifies, but the 'Practical Method of Chen Style Taijiquan' is an offshoot of the main style and deviates significantly in Methodology.
> 
> They specialize in Stand up grappling applications of Taijiquan.


I would say that the main method of Chen Taiji, as practiced in Chen Village by the Chen Family, IS the practical style.  It’s just that most people never get beyond a superficial understanding of the method and never see that standard practices by Chen Family include lots of application training, conditioning, impact training (heavy bags, etc.) strength training, in short, everything that any valid fight school would engage in.  

But foreigners don’t tend to see this.  Foreigners are viewed as tourists who are not serious about their training, so they are given superficial instruction in a form, their money is collected, and they are sent on their way with the belief that they “trained” at Chen Village, so their Taiji must be awesome.  They never see what training goes on out of view of the tourists and never understand what it takes to become a skilled fighter with the method.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> I would say that the main method of Chen Taiji, as practiced in Chen Village by the Chen Family, IS the practical style.  It’s just that most people never get beyond a superficial understanding of the method and never see that standard practices by Chen Family include lots of application training, conditioning, impact training (heavy bags, etc.) strength training, in short, everything that any valid fight school would engage in.
> 
> But foreigners don’t tend to see this.  Foreigners are viewed as tourists who are not serious about their training, so they are given superficial instruction in a form, their money is collected, and they are sent on their way with the belief that they “trained” at Chen Village, so their Taiji must be awesome.  They never see what training goes on out of view of the tourists and never understand what it takes to become a skilled fighter with the method.



I was told something like this by a member of the Chen family. They tend mot to take foreigners seriously because all they want to do is go to a seminar or two, claim mastery and then go teach. This is not to say they do not have serious foreign students, they do, but it takes more than a seminar to get taken seriously


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2021)

geezer said:


> Bajiquan? Dunno if it's obscure, but it is pretty _rare_ around me. Not so rare in China I guess.
> 
> Bajiquan International Training Center
> Ba Ji Fist / Ba Ji Quan-Qufu Shaolin Kung Fu School
> baji quan kung fu - Taizu Tradition Martial arts School



Bajiquan is fairly rare. And what makes it even more rare is that many teachers will not just teach anyone who shows up and asks.

Another VERY rare thing to find, and have someone teacher you, is the Police\Military version of Sanda/Sanshou


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I was told something like this by a member of the Chen family. They tend mot to take foreigners seriously because all they want to do is go to a seminar or two, claim mastery and then go teach. This is not to say they do not have serious foreign students, they do, but it takes more than a seminar to get taken seriously


Yes, I am sure there are exceptions to what I describe, but they are exceptions and not typical.  You need to convince them that you are serious, before they will take you seriously.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, I am sure there are exceptions to what I describe, but they are exceptions and not typical.  You need to convince them that you are serious, before they will take you seriously.



I've always found seminars interesting because people show up, try and learn something like Laojia Yilu in 2 days and then think they are students of the Chen family person who gave the seminar. 

Don't get me wrong, seminars can be great, but it does not make you a student of the person holding the seminar


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## Flying Crane (Feb 16, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> I've always found seminars interesting because people show up, try and learn something like Laojia Yilu in 2 days and then think they are students of the Chen family person who gave the seminar.
> 
> Don't get me wrong, seminars can be great, but it does not make you a student of the person holding the seminar


Yeah, I think they are problematic and I’m not a big fan.  They can have value, but I’ve seen like you described, people learn an entire form in a weekend and then the seminar is over and they never see the teacher again.  They practice an imperfectly and superficially understood form without any further guidance.  If they practice it at all.  I don’t see that as a worthwhile approach to learning.


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah, I think they are problematic and I’m not a big fan.  They can have value, but I’ve seen like you described, people learn an entire form in a weekend and then the seminar is over and they never see the teacher again.  They practice an imperfectly and superficially understood form without any further guidance.  If they practice it at all.  I don’t see that as a worthwhile approach to learning.



I agree, generally, though I see 2 cases where seminars may be worthwhile (to the students, not the presenter). 

One, is when the attendee is advanced in the same or related art.  With their knowledge and experience, they may be able to take some concepts / techniques and put them in a helpful context and later, on their own, develop them into effective application.

Two, when the attendee is less advanced, they probably won't take much of anything specific that's usable, but the seminar may get them excited enough to later seek out true instruction.

For everyone else, maybe some good snacks, socializing, and a certificate of participation may be worth the money.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 16, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I agree, generally, though I see 2 cases where seminars may be worthwhile (to the students, not the presenter).
> 
> One, is when the attendee is advanced in the same or related art.  With their knowledge and experience, they may be able to take some concepts / techniques and put them in a helpful context and later, on their own, develop them into effective application.
> 
> ...




The Best seminars I ever attended were push hands at YMAA, but I had already done a lot of push hands with my shifu prior. And Xingyiquan, but I already knew the form they were teaching, those were awesome seminars. There went to a few very short class  (seminar) that were very good, that I technically has no experience in, Yiquan. But that comes mostly from Xingyiquan, the teacher was great and the sessions were short so there was no overload.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 16, 2021)

Flying Crane said:


> people learn an entire form in a weekend ...


Which workshop do you think general people may like to take?

1. Learn a complete form (such as Yang Taiji 24 moves simple form).






2. Lean a MA principle/strategy (such as attack one leg, then attack the other leg).


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## isshinryuronin (Feb 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which workshop do you think general people may like to take?
> 
> 1. Learn a complete form (such as Yang Taiji 24 moves simple form).
> 
> ...



Great videos of leg sweeps/takedowns.  Love the tactic of the double attack on the legs.  This is something I can work with.

The Tai Chi video was beautiful (went very well with the music, too.)  Hypnotic.  She was very smooth and controlled, and seemed to follow good biomechanics for power and application (didn't like the straight front leg in the back stance, but I have little knowledge of the art / form, so maybe not as dangerous as it looked.)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Feb 16, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which workshop do you think general people may like to take?
> 
> 1. Learn a complete form (such as Yang Taiji 24 moves simple form).
> 
> ...


Personally, the second. But a lot of workshops sadly teach the first.


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

jobo said:


> lancashire clogg fighting,  that putting on a pair of wooden soled shoes and kicking your opponent in the shin til he or you gives in or someones leg breaks.
> 
> its a bit niche, but really hard core


Don't tell me it's an actually martial art XD


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

I guess they ran out of ideas XD


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Which workshop do you think general people may like to take?
> 
> 1. Learn a complete form (such as Yang Taiji 24 moves simple form).
> 
> ...


I've been trying to learn these moves a long time, and seeing these gifs has encouraged me more


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

Rat said:


> I
> Its not a martial art, but shin hitting is a sport, two peopel hold onto each other and take turns hitting each others shins with their shins.


Are you kidding me? Shin hitting is a sport? 
Just imagine:
Me: Hi Bob! How are you doing?
Bob: Hi! I'm fine!
Me: Bob, did you know I have a black belt?
Bob: No you are kidding me, right?
Me: No, really!
Bob: Ok, now you're a karate master!
Me: Who said I did karate?
Bob: Oh sorry, great Taekwon Master!
Me: No, I do shin kicking!
Bob: Wait waaaaa


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## Razznik (Feb 17, 2021)

Xue Sheng said:


> The Best seminars I ever attended were push hands at YMAA, but I had already done a lot of push hands with my shifu prior. And Xingyiquan, but I already knew the form they were teaching, those were awesome seminars. There went to a few very short class  (seminar) that were very good, that I technically has no experience in, Yiquan. But that comes mostly from Xingyiquan, the teacher was great and the sessions were short so there was no overload.


Isn't Xingyiquan based on speed? Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 17, 2021)

Dark Sovereign 193 said:


> Isn't Xingyiquan based on speed? Correct me if I'm wrong.



It is fast, but not based on speed, it is an internal Chinese martial art and more about power and aggression


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