# Experts: $4 a gallon gas coming soon



## Bob Hubbard (Aug 31, 2005)

Experts: $4 a gallon gas coming soon
 Pricing analysts say consumers can expect even higher prices at the pump.
   August 31, 2005:  3:47 PM EDT 
  By Grace Wong, CNN/Money staff writer

* NEW YORK (CNN/Money) - Consumers can expect retail gas prices to rise to $4 a gallon soon but whether they stay there depends on the long-term damage to oil facilities from Hurricane Katrina, oil and gas analysts said Wednesday. * 

   "There's no question gas will hit $4 a gallon," Ben Brockwell, director of pricing at the Oil Price Information Service, said. "The question is how high will it go and how long will it last?" 

            OPIS tracks wholesale and retail oil prices and provides pricing information for AAA's daily reports on fuel prices. 

    Brockwell said with gasoline prices now exceeding $3 a gallon before even reaching the wholesale level, it "doesn't take a genius" to expect retail prices to hit $4 a gallon soon. 

         "Consumers haven't seen the worst of it yet," Brockwell said. 

   He expects consumers in the Southeast and Northeast to be pinched first, following the impact of Hurricane Katrina on the Gulf Coast region.


CNN Article


----------



## michaeledward (Aug 31, 2005)

I saw $3.30 in Cambridge today. 

Then I was able to fill the tank at 2.61 in my hometown.

Still, it's cheaper than water.


----------



## Phoenix44 (Aug 31, 2005)

Soon?  It was $3.99 this afternoon.


----------



## OUMoose (Aug 31, 2005)

Hmmmm... and I was just looking at ad prices to put my motorcycle in the paper.  Think I may have to rethink this.


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 31, 2005)

And when people can no longer afford gas, the gas companies are screwed, now arent they?


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> And when people can no longer afford gas, the gas companies are screwed, now arent they?


No, we all are screwed.  Americans depend on petroleum for nearly everything we do.  If we can no longer afford it, all of our infrastructure suddenly becomes obsolete.  Our entire fleet of vehicles suddenly become scrap.  Our food delivery system grinds to a halt...

I could go on and on.  Quickly spiralling gas prices are a nightmare scenario for the US economy.  

$4.00 is a possability and so is $5.00 and possabily $6.00.  Hurricane Katrina was a strong catagory five storm out in the gulf where all of the infrastructure was.  Hurricane Ivan was a catagory three that strengthened to a four.  Ivan demolished the gulf's oil and gas offshore industry.  They didn't get it back online for a year.  Katrina wiped the infrastructure of the map.  It may take years to get production back online.


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 31, 2005)

Visions of Americans riding their bicycles in the streets as the Japanese do come to mind ....


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 31, 2005)

Well, when I went to work this morning it was still at 2.69. Today I came out and it's 3.09 :idunno: . Earlier this month I read something like we americans use roughly 19 - 20 million barrels of oil a year. Today I read that we the U.S. have over 700 million barrels ready in case of emergency. Supposedly we purchased these barrels at 30 - 35 dollars a barrel. Ok, now; how long can we last on our own supplies? Screw the towel heads! We need to start taking care of ourselves! Out of all of the countries we are always helping where the **** are these people at to help us? Nowhere! We have troops strung out everywhere. Bush is almost going to have to reinstate a draft to protect us at home, keep chasing those towel heads elsewhere, plus now clean up states. Yet we're still going to buy oil from the arabs.  

And yes. I'm seriously considering riding my bicycle to work. It's 18 miles one way but I love to bike. Unforunately with winter coming soon  :idunno:  how am I going to do that. We also have to think about our cars outside warming up before we drive. Your mpg will go down and gas will go up. 
Sorry, rant over now.


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Visions of Americans riding their bicycles in the streets as the Japanese do come to mind ....


Maybe after a period of really hard times.  

In the short term, if there is any staying power to these prices, I can see some serious problems.  Recession, rationing, bankruptcy, food shortages...etc

People don't realize just how much our lives depend on cheap fuel.  Here's a couple of eye openers.

1.  For every one calorie of food we eat, it takes 10 calories of oil to grow.
2.  Every week, Americans use their body weight in oil.
3.  If the amount of energy provided by oil were converted into the amount of energy a human could put out with manual labor, every person in the US has the equivolent of 150 people working for us.

The President is opening the strategic petroleum reserve in order to deal with this crisis.  This reserve was created as a last resort measure.  The problem is that we are using 20,000,000 barrels of oil per day.  Demand can outstrip supply very easily.


----------



## shesulsa (Aug 31, 2005)

I think upnorth is a lot closer to what's really going to happen that most people think.

 Does this remind anyone else of anything?  High oil prices? Farmers unable to pay for gas to ship their goods? Mass consumables rising in price because of the higher cost of shipping?  Smaller businesses going under?

 C'mon folks ... what's it called???  Starts with a "D" ...


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 31, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> C'mon folks ... what's it called???  Starts with a "D" ...


I was hoping that we wouldn't see that in our lifetime. However, history can/does/& will repeat itself.  I'm sorry to say that I'd hate for everyone or most of us to lose anything and everything we have. It's quite scary. Look at the recent history of the NYSE. Let's hope nothing happens. 

I wonder how many think Bush is doing a good job?
 %think%


----------



## Tgace (Aug 31, 2005)

The news just stated a few minutes ago that the real issue for now is refinery output. Why havent we built more and why are the ones that are open running a sub capacity?


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 31, 2005)

I was reading a couple weeks ago about how we closed some refineries after gas companies have merged. The larger ones purchased some of the smaller ones and closed their refineries. Of course most of what I read is over the internet so anyway, it makes you wonder exactly how much is true. However, I'd probably believe that this.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Aug 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The news just stated a few minutes ago that the real issue for now is refinery output.


Quantity is actually not the problem it's distribution of the oil. Not enough refineries to produce what we need.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The news just stated a few minutes ago that the real issue for now is refinery output. Why havent we built more and why are the ones that are open running a sub capacity?




Check the last three years, and you will see a trend every Spring and Fall.

When they switch from the Winter Fuel to Summer Fuel or the otehr way around, there always seems to be a refinery that is down, or is being repaired or is dammaged, or in this case in the south, that has been damaged by the Hurricane.

It is artificially elevated in my opinion, based upon the demand of the new fule, because the refiveries have stopped producing the old fuel, which is still in demand. 

Oh well, seeing trends and patterns, like this usually makes one seem like a paranoid person. Oh Well.  :idunno:


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> The news just stated a few minutes ago that the real issue for now is refinery output. Why havent we built more and why are the ones that are open running a sub capacity?


There hasn't been any new investment in oil infrastructure in the US for 30 years.  The US peaked as an oil producer in the early 70s and production has fallen ever since.  Building new refineries to refine a dwindling resource is not profitable.  Closing refineries and running others at sub capacity is perfectly in-line with what one would expect from falling production.

World wide, the trend is for no new investment.  No tankers, no refineries, barely any new drilling.  Many experts point to this as an indicator that the world has reached a peak in oil production and that the oil companies know this.


----------



## Tgace (Aug 31, 2005)

IMO..this is just price adjustment. The US has been getting cheap gas in comparison to the rest of the world. Now in the interest of making money the powers that be are tinkering with the price until it reaches the point where we start using less gas at which point Id bet the price stabilizes.

What was last years "world average" price on a gallon of gasoline in US dollars?


----------



## Makalakumu (Aug 31, 2005)

Before Katrina, supplies were extremely tight.  There was absolutely no wiggle room and the energy markets were riding the razors edge.  Katrina put a 25% crimp in the supply of oil and gas.  With demand being as high as it is (AND increasing), the price spike could be quite large.  

The staying power of the high prices is what economists are worrying about.  Katrina was a very powerful storm.  She busted up a lot of stuff worse then it has ever been busted up before.

It's a wait and see game now...


----------



## terryl965 (Aug 31, 2005)

Well this am 2.69 this evening 3.02 what a ****ing hike in 9 hrs. At this rate it will be 10.00 by x-mas. what a present that will be 250.00 to fill a tank.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> IMO..this is just price adjustment. The US has been getting cheap gas in comparison to the rest of the world. Now in the interest of making money the powers that be are tinkering with the price until it reaches the point where we start using less gas at which point Id bet the price stabilizes.
> 
> What was last years "world average" price on a gallon of gasoline in US dollars?




Tom et al,

While I agree with price adjustment, most of the other countries in the world tax their fuel, as in Use Tax, meaning those who use the fuel pay a higher tax. This money is used for fixing and building new roads and bridges. Right now it may be a price adjustment, and I know the Gas Stations are not the ones making the profit, just curious as to who is. 

So, if you buy a fuel efficient car, then you pay less tax. If you buy a gas guzzler then you pay more.

Just my thoughts on this.


----------



## Tgace (Aug 31, 2005)

Yep. Theres tax on gasoline here too though. Although I believe its a state by state thing in the US.


----------



## MisterMike (Aug 31, 2005)

We already hit +$5

http://www.macon.com/mld/macon/news/local/12527602.htm

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=46083


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Aug 31, 2005)

This is fun:

http://toccionline.kizash.com/films/1001/178/index.php


"I can't afford my gasoline, the prices have become obscene...."


Think about ways this hurts the nation:

Truckers pay more for gas, shipping prices therefore go up.  Product prices go up as a result.

Airline fairs go up.  People travel less as a result.  The service industries relying on tourism suffer.

Municipal transit pays more for gas, as do police, emergency services, maintenance crews.  Taxes go up to pay for the gas, or in the case of transit a fare increase goes into effect.  



Regards,


Steve


----------



## Andrew Green (Aug 31, 2005)

Gas prices will come down if an alternative starts catching up, or, we have hit peak oil and they are up for good...


----------



## Rob Broad (Aug 31, 2005)

How does $125.9 per litre sound that really hurts.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Aug 31, 2005)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Yep. Theres tax on gasoline here too though. Although I believe its a state by state thing in the US.




Logic.

If I paid $2.50 a gallon last week in Michigan a state of the USA. 

If I paid $2.89 a gallon yesterday at the same location.

Europe is already at $5.00+ equivalent

The Price is just an adjustment?

This does not follow.

In Ontario it is reported that it is now $1.259 per litre. This CAD or Candian Dollars, not US. Which is about 84%+ exchange to the USD. See http://www.x-rates.com/.  So multiple $125.9 by 1.189 is $1.496951 for adjusted ratio. 

At 3.8 Litres to gallon, you get 3.8 * $1.496951 is $5.6884138.

It looks like the rest of the world is seeing a rise as well, just not at the same rate.

This means one of two things.

1) Either people were making more profits in Canada and Europe 

or

2) They had a higher Tax base, that is used for infrastructure.


This means people are just being greedy here in the USA, or price adjusting, with no return to the people, as it is else where. 

So, I have no problem if it is either one, I just want people to realize what it is they are discussing, in logical terms, and comparisons.


----------



## Bester (Sep 1, 2005)

Gonna suck bigtime in the North.  That whole winter thing. Streets won't be plowed, homes wont be heated, etc.

How long's it take to get a gun again?


----------



## arnisador (Sep 1, 2005)

In New Orleans? Not long.

I paid over $40 to fill up my Toyota last week. First time ever...in fact, it wasn't that long ago that I broke the $30 mark.


----------



## Makalakumu (Sep 1, 2005)

The hurricane season is just beginning...and we can expect a greater number and intensity of the storms because of global warming.  At this point, there are two tropical depressions in the Atlantic that are strengthening.  One is a named storm...Lee.  Other areas will probably take a hit...and it is possible that the Gulf Coast takes another hit.

I'll take -40 below anyday over this...


----------



## OUMoose (Sep 1, 2005)

I paid $3.29/gal yesterday, and I've heard prospects of topping $4 by the weekend since it's a holiday.  So... anyone want to buy my Lincoln?  I'm thinking a bicycle investment might be a good idea...


----------



## ginshun (Sep 1, 2005)

Some of this has to be price gouging by gas stations/companies.  Last night on my way home, I passed 4 gas stations in the last about mile and a half to my house, and the prices ranged from 2.99 on the low side to 3.20 on the high side.  What the heck is that?

 Its going to cost a fortune to heat my house this winter.  Damn fuel oil.


----------



## ginshun (Sep 1, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> The hurricane season is just beginning...and we can expect a greater number and intensity of the storms because of global warming. At this point, there are two tropical depressions in the Atlantic that are strengthening. One is a named storm...Lee. Other areas will probably take a hit...and it is possible that the Gulf Coast takes another hit.
> 
> I'll take -40 below anyday over this...


 It'll probably be -40 at one point this winter.  That'll be when I can almost feel the money being ripped from my pocket for fuel oil.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 1, 2005)

I'm looking at converting to wind/solar for power, then heat off space heaters rather than gas.  Several hundred bucks now, vs hundred every month. Haven't worked out the details yet.


----------



## Lisa (Sep 1, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'm looking at converting to wind/solar for power, then heat off space heaters rather than gas.  Several hundred bucks now, vs hundred every month. Haven't worked out the details yet.



Space heaters?

I thought electricity was incredibly expensive in the states.  We are lucky here in , we produce an incredible amount of electrical power.  I still think my bill is way too high, but in comparison to what I have heard from other provinces and some people in the states, we have it good and gas is still cheaper then heating my home by electricity.


----------



## ginshun (Sep 1, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'm looking at converting to wind/solar for power, then heat off space heaters rather than gas. Several hundred bucks now, vs hundred every month. Haven't worked out the details yet.


 I have looked into solar for power. It is incredibly expensive to get set up. I think it would be roughly a $60K investment for me to get all my power needs from solar alone. It might be lower now, as I have been switching over to flouresents as light bulbs burn out.  This can only go up if I started running a bunch of space heaters. 

  I'll tell you one thing though, my house won't make it above about 60 degrees F this winter unless my daughter is there.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 1, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'm looking at converting to wind/solar for power, then heat off space heaters rather than gas.  Several hundred bucks now, vs hundred every month. Haven't worked out the details yet.




One of the mags I read recently metioned the average costs, I will try to find it and post it here


----------



## Lisa (Sep 1, 2005)

ginshun said:
			
		

> It might be lower now, as I have been switching over to flouresents as light bulbs burn out.  This can only go up if I started running a bunch of space heaters.
> 
> I'll tell you one thing though, my house won't make it above about 60 degrees F this winter unless my daughter is there.



When we moved into our new home we put fluorescents in and I am waiting to see once winter comes and there is less day light if it brings out electrical bill down.  The nice thing about it is, if the kids leave the lights on, they don't burn out as fast.

I have full intention of dropping the temp in my house as well.  "put a sweater on" will probably be said a lot in my house this winter.


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 1, 2005)

Our place is electrical heat, and living on a lake in Northern Ontario is quite cold in the winter.  Our average heating bill in the winter was $300 + each month.  I switched to energy saver bulbs, and saw about a 15% drop in the the monthly costs for electricty even though the electrical company raised rates by about 5% that year.  Last year I double plastic'd the window one layer inside and one layer outside, what a difference.  We also disconnected the exhaust hose from the dryer and did one load of laundry each day in the morning.  Our house stayed warm all winter long, and our biggest bill was just under $200.  There are tons of little things you can do to help yourself save a few $$$ without spending a lot of money and without freezing yourself ll winter.


----------



## ginshun (Sep 1, 2005)

OK, I just checked again.  Last month I used 701 kWH of power, for an electric bill of $78 and change.

 I live in northeren WI.  For me to purchase a grid connected system that produces that much power, it costs 45 grand. This is jsut for the system, I am no electrition, so I am sure I'd have to figure in several more thousand to have it installed.  At this rate, I am talking 50+ years before it pays for itself.

 I'd love to do it, but it is just not finacially viable at this point.


 Here is the websight that I am looking at.

http://www.mrsolar.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=MSOS&Category_Code=ce

 dig up your last electic bill and see what it would cost you.


----------



## Lisa (Sep 1, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> Our place is electrical heat, and living on a lake in Northern Ontario is quite cold in the winter.  Our average heating bill in the winter was $300 + each month.  I switched to energy saver bulbs, and saw about a 15% drop in the the monthly costs for electricty even though the electrical company raised rates by about 5% that year.  Last year I double plastic'd the window one layer inside and one layer outside, what a difference.  We also disconnected the exhaust hose from the dryer and did one load of laundry each day in the morning.  Our house stayed warm all winter long, and our biggest bill was just under $200.  There are tons of little things you can do to help yourself save a few $$$ without spending a lot of money and without freezing yourself ll winter.



I have a brother and his family that live in the same town you do, Rob.  They have a wood burning stove that they get up twice a night to fill to keep the house warm because their electrical bill to heat the house was astronomical as you mentioned.

This year I plan on putting plastic on the windows as well and we need to replace some weatherstipping on the doors.  Every little bit helps.

I do believe, and I could be wrong, but I read somewhere years ago that Solar Heating is not much of an option here in Manitoba because there is not enough sunny days, cloud cover is too thick and daylight is limited during the winter months to make it a viable option.


----------



## Flatlander (Sep 1, 2005)

From: Disaster scenario for refining 



> The surge in wholesale prices on commodity markets translated into a jump in refiner margins, the spread between what a refinery pays for crude and what it can charge for fuels and other products.
> 
> Overnight, refiner margins for gasoline doubled and are now more than triple their 12-month average, according to M.J. Ervin & Associates Inc. in Calgary. For gasoline, the refiner margin rocketed to 30.2 cents (Canadian) a litre, based on the New York Harbour Price.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 1, 2005)

Nalia said:
			
		

> I have a brother and his family that live in the same town you do, Rob. They have a wood burning stove that they get up twice a night to fill to keep the house warm because their electrical bill to heat the house was astronomical as you mentioned.


 At the house we just moved from, we used a wood burning stove - very efficient and only three years old.  Now we only have a fireplace with a blower, so ... we'll see how this winter goes.  We might do an insert, if we can (custom fireplace), but if not, we might get stuck having to revamp the fireplace with soapstone.

 Icky electric bills, just icky.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 1, 2005)

Sarite... if I cant afford to heat it this winter, Ill just start the floors on fire.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Sep 1, 2005)

Next week I'm starting a car pool with someone at work. Not sure exactly how it's going to pan out but we're going to make an attempt at it. I'd rather ride my bicycle but it's going to start getting colder and darker for longer. I'd hate to get hit by a car on the road. :jedi1:


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 1, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I'd hate to get hit by a car on the road. :jedi1:


 Just make sure you are really good at rolling and falling.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 1, 2005)

Some local gas stations ran out today.

Others raised their prices two or three times today in reflect of the demand.

The news reported gas over $6.00 a gallon for premium and just under $6 for regular.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 1, 2005)

Y'know, it's really rough for us, but think how badly these oil company execs must be fairing.  I mean, sure we can't afford to eat and buy gas the same week, and will probably be seeing 300+ buck heating bills, but damn it Biff will have to choose between gassing up the Benz or the Jag.  Muffy will have to cut back her 3x daily visits to her personal trainer to 2x a week.  They will have to use the Lear jet less and possibly even have to fly Elite Class. (Shudder).
Those poor bastards...how they will suffer right along with us all.  They are heartbroken, having to sacrifice so, and possibly watch their income drop to a mere 7 figures this year. How can anyone possibly live like that.


----------



## bignick (Sep 1, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's really rough for us, but think how badly these oil company execs must be fairing. I mean, sure we can't afford to eat and buy gas the same week, and will probably be seeing 300+ buck heating bills, but damn it Biff will have to choose between gassing up the Benz or the Jag. Muffy will have to cut back her 3x daily visits to her personal trainer to 2x a week. They will have to use the Lear jet less and possibly even have to fly Elite Class. (Shudder).
> Those poor bastards...how they will suffer right along with us all. They are heartbroken, having to sacrifice so, and possibly watch their income drop to a mere 7 figures this year. How can anyone possibly live like that.


 You just bite your lip and try to pull through, you know?  Do the best you can with meager resources...


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 1, 2005)

Can we now tie this thread into the "Causes of Crime" thread?

 Cuz... well... yeah.


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 1, 2005)

I agree 100% Bob.  These oil compnaies have huge insurance policies for situations like this, but any chance to rape the consumer will and must be taken.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 1, 2005)

Gas is now topped $3.20 here.  A friend of mine was filling his car and the price jumped 11 cents between the time he started and the time he finished.  They charged him the new price.  It's robbery, plain and simple.

Oh, there will be "investigations" and the fat-cats will "look into it", but no "abuse" will be found I'm sure.  

People and companies that profit from the suffering of others are scum. I would wish that those involved would suffer somehow, but they are immune to such pains, unless it hits them in the wallet.


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 1, 2005)

Damn it!!!  Some one call Michael Moore and get him on this.  Atleast we could get a good documentary out this screw job.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 2, 2005)

It's around $3 even for regular here, with some variation.


----------



## heretic888 (Sep 2, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Y'know, it's really rough for us, but think how badly these oil company execs must be fairing.  I mean, sure we can't afford to eat and buy gas the same week, and will probably be seeing 300+ buck heating bills, but damn it Biff will have to choose between gassing up the Benz or the Jag.  Muffy will have to cut back her 3x daily visits to her personal trainer to 2x a week.  They will have to use the Lear jet less and possibly even have to fly Elite Class. (Shudder).
> Those poor bastards...how they will suffer right along with us all.  They are heartbroken, having to sacrifice so, and possibly watch their income drop to a mere 7 figures this year. How can anyone possibly live like that.



Hahaha!  :lol:  :lol:  :lol: 

Bob, your post totally reminded of an episode of _South Park_ when the boys are lectured by an FBI agent about downloading music online. I love it: "If music downloading doesn't stop soon, P-Diddy won't be able to buy his son his own island for his birthday!"


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 2, 2005)

Ponder this ..

Monday - 1 Share of Exxon Mobil Stock cost approximately $58.50

Friday - 1 Share of Exxon Mobil Stock cost approximately $60.70

With 6 Billion 300 Million shares out there, this company has *increased in value* more than $12,000,000,000.00 despite of (or because of) Hurrican Katrina.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 2, 2005)

Driving down a 1 mile stretch of road here, prices ranged from 2.89-3.99.
Last night a rep for Noco was on our local news and said that they were -losing- money on every gallon sold. That the gas we were buying at 3.10 was costing them 3.55.

Several local stations have already topped $4.  I predict that by 9/6 it will have passed the $5 point.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

_
  With 6 Billion 300 Million shares out there, this company has *increased in value* more than $12,000,000,000.00 despite of (or because of) Hurrican Katrina._

 Naturally.  If you produce something in high demand and your production capacity goes down but demand stays level, then your cost per unit is going to go up, meaning  your revenue is going to go, meeaning your payoff to stockholders is going to go up, meaning your stock price is going to go up as more people try to get in on the action.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 2, 2005)

Or, if a company owns an asset, and that asset is destroyed by a hurricane. The lost asset, and the additional cost of rebuilding the asset, will drive the value of the company down.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

I have a related question.

Why is it, that the Stations by me, on the day they announced there might be a problem, and the Stock market caused the wholesale price of oil to go up, started rasing prices.

I mean, that gas was already at the station, paid for at the lower price...

I liken it to buying a case of twinkies at 10cents a twinkie, selling them for a quarter, then suddenly hearing that the twinkie factory burned down, and selling them for 2.00 each instead.  

Its pure profiteering.

Or am I insane for thinking that?


----------



## Marginal (Sep 2, 2005)

Given the insane rush to the pumps, the higher price does help keep consumption at normal levels.


----------



## FearlessFreep (Sep 2, 2005)

Exactly.  Supply and demand works both ways, so to speak.  Even if the supply is the same, if demand goes up, then so will the price.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 2, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> I have a related question.
> 
> Why is it, that the Stations by me, on the day they announced there might be a problem, and the Stock market caused the wholesale price of oil to go up, started rasing prices.
> 
> ...


 Nope, you're just insane. :boing1:


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 2, 2005)

People need to stop buying it.
Switch to hybrids, force the development of non-gas vehicles.
Move to solar, wind and pure hydro.
Hell, make car-bikes we can all peddle together in. L


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> People need to stop buying it.
> Switch to hybrids, force the development of non-gas vehicles.
> Move to solar, wind and pure hydro.
> Hell, make car-bikes we can all peddle together in. L


I have seen a book on how to convert a regular automobile to run on grain alcohol, and it has a section on running a still...


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 2, 2005)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Nope, you're just insane. :boing1:


Witch.

:erg: :erg: :erg:


----------



## arnisador (Sep 2, 2005)

I've told the kids they have to walk everywhere from now on.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 3, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Witch.
> 
> :erg: :erg: :erg:


 ooooooo .... hate me, hate me .... :inlove:


----------



## Lisa (Sep 3, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've told the kids they have to walk everywhere from now on.



I told my husband he needs to sell his big truck.  His muttered response can't be typed out here on MT.  Lets just say it would look something like *******!


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 3, 2005)

Gas took another jump yesterday to $1.39.5 per litre.

This is getting ridiculous and the government is profiting from it with our good old double tax on gas.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 3, 2005)

Supprisingly, I have found some stations (2 as of this AM coming into the office) around here who are holding UNDER 3.00 a gallon.


----------



## michaeledward (Sep 3, 2005)

I'll post it again. If you aren't using this web site, you are not driving defensively.

www.gasbuddy.com


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 3, 2005)

Thanks for the link.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 3, 2005)

michaeledward said:
			
		

> I'll post it again. If you aren't using this web site, you are not driving defensively.
> 
> www.gasbuddy.com




The site ie pretty accurate.

On Friday when most went up one station went down.

On the Michigan list it is number 5 for the lowest.



As per the President, and believe me it took his request, I drove my Bike to work on Friday, and also Friday night, when I went out with some friends for dinner. Conserving the fuel usage and all. There is no way I drove my bike becuase I also enjoyed it, that would not be in the theme of conserving. 

As to selling off every SUV and Big Truck, each person has to do what they want or need to do. I predict that people will still need trucks for work and also for camping and hunting and such. Yet, they may not be the everyday driver.

The basics of our economy is supply and demand, and if everyone sells their SUV's and trucks right now with the interests rates on the rise, the value and demand will decrease and people will possible loose even more money than if they held it. Sit down and run the numbers out for a year to maintain the vehicle, and picking up a smaller transport of commuter vehicle, versus, selling and taking a loss on a vehicle.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Sep 3, 2005)

Gas seems to be stabilizing in the 3.50-3.60 range here.  Oh, and alot of stations appear to be out of gas too...ironically it was the ones that were changing prices every few minutes it seems.  LOL  Hope they go under.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 3, 2005)

I paid $2.99 this morning and spent just over $42. It wasn't even on *E* yet! ouch, that hurts.

 The first place I tried was indeed out of gas.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Sep 3, 2005)

Ours went down to 2.99   . Whoohoo.   

Also check gas prices at 
_(insert your state)_ www.()gasprices.com

They seem to be accurate as well.


----------



## BlueDragon1981 (Sep 4, 2005)

My honest opinion is they are raising prices to make a quick buck. There isn't a shortage. They are using kartrina and the war as an excuse to make money. Simple logic in my opinion.


----------



## Cryozombie (Sep 4, 2005)

I saw 2.98 today...


----------



## OUMoose (Sep 6, 2005)

I'm just happy we didn't see over 3.50 this past weekend.


----------



## BlueDragon1981 (Sep 6, 2005)

It has been 3.19 here for around 4 days now.


----------



## shesulsa (Sep 6, 2005)

Heard today on local news that gas prices in Oregon are the 3rd cheapest in the nation at $2.69/gal. I don't think I need to go over there, though, I saw it on this side of the river for 2.69 as well.


----------



## jonah2 (Sep 6, 2005)

If my calculations are correct, the USA petrol prices are good.

Over here the prices just went up around 3p per litre to approximately £1.00(UK) per Litre(UK)

1 litre (uk) = 0.2642 gals (US)
exchage rate as of 4:15pm (gmt) is £1(UK) = $1.84(US)

That puts our petrol at $6.96(US) / Gallon(US)

Guess its time to walk to work

Jonah


----------



## jfarnsworth (Sep 6, 2005)

OUMoose said:
			
		

> I'm just happy we didn't see over 3.50 this past weekend.


I hear 'ya. I have to drive to columbus next wednesday. I guess it wouldn't be so bad if I didn't live 60 miles away :jedi1: . Hopefully gas drops down a penny or 30.


----------



## Dronak (Sep 6, 2005)

Sure, prices could get up to US$4/gallon, but we actually got a price drop today, the first in quite a while.  The high end, premium gas I use dropped from something like $3.41 or so to about $3.14.  The most I paid so far was $3.75 when we had some spot outages (due to false rumors that the state was going to shut down the gas stations), but I had seen it get up to $4.17 at one location.  BTW, there's typically about a $0.10 difference between grades in my area, so $3.14 high end should mean about $2.94 regular.

Yes, the price in the US is still cheaper than in many other countries.  I've heard that we pay something like half as much.  So even with the increases, we do have it good overall.  And we probably should keep that in mind.  However, when the price we are paying rises dramatically, up to around twice of what it was a year ago, people get upset.  Many of those increases happened in a matter of weeks or a couple months, too.  I read that some gas stations were changing prices up to three times a day.  Given this sort of situation, I think being upset is a pretty natural reaction.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 6, 2005)

Seems to be stabilizing around here...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Seems to be stabilizing around here...



Perception!

Now we are ready to accept $2.99 a gallon as stabilizing and better than the $4 possible.

Still frustrating.


----------



## deadhand31 (Sep 6, 2005)

Gas prices in my chunk of southeastern Wisconsin have started plummeting. Sunday, the lowest was 3.30. Monday, the prices were 3.25. Today, they're 3.07. Let's hope that they continue to go down.


----------



## Lisa (Sep 6, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> Perception!
> 
> Now we are ready to accept $2.99 a gallon as stabilizing and better than the $4 possible.
> 
> Still frustrating.




AGREED!

Everybody is saying we will get used to it, I don't wanna get used to it, it is disgusting!!!!

It's robbery IMHO and it seems so damn wrong.


----------



## deadhand31 (Sep 6, 2005)

One thing I hate is that there was still more than enough gas to meet national demand during the price spike. We had a surplus, but it was the fact that we had a _smaller_ surplus that sent the prices up. 

This, I feel is a blatant act of price gouging. The oil companies, both national and local, don't seem to have anyone to answer to.


----------



## arnisador (Sep 7, 2005)

Stable is stable. A stable operating point isn't necessarily stable at a desirable point!


----------



## Flatlander (Sep 7, 2005)

From this table (pdf), I calculated that since 1995, the US has had, on average, 205.6 million total barrels of gasoline in reserve. In the first 7 months of 2005, the reserve has averaged about 204 million barrels, so, pretty close. Also from the table, current stocks (_as of end of July 2005_) would supply demand for approximately 14 - 15 days. Production yeilds about 91% of daily demand. At that rate, gasoline stocks would be depleted in 120 days, unless refining of crude is ramped up. Unfortunately, this article suggests that US refining capacity will be reduced by at least 2 major refineries for quite some time. Clearly, the US will need to import more gasoline for the time being. 

   This isn't the only problem, however. Subsequent to Katrina, "According to the Minerals Management                    Service (MMS), as of 11:30 Central Time September 6, Gulf of Mexico oil production was reduced by over 870,000 barrels per day." (source) This corresponds to a 16% decline in US oil production, according to further calculations base on numbers found here regarding current averages. Without increasing imports, US reserves will be depleted in about a year. So, the US will also need to import more crude. About 8.3% more than it currently does, in order to maintain current inventories.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Sep 7, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Stable is stable. A stable operating point isn't necessarily stable at a desirable point!



I agree


----------



## Rob Broad (Sep 7, 2005)

Regardless.  Good Ole George W. and his oil buddies are still raking inthe bills hand over fist, while the average person is bent over and raped at the pump.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 2, 2005)

I put $51 worth of gas into my Toyota Camry last week. Grrrr...


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 2, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I put $51 worth of gas into my Toyota Camry last week. Grrrr...



hmmmm, I filled up with 13.5 gallons and paid about $42 to fill up.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 2, 2005)

Yeah, but you're obscenely wealthy. What about those of us _without_ chauffeurs?


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 2, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yeah, but you're obscenely wealthy. What about those of us _without_ chauffeurs?



chauffeurs!

How Dare you, I enjoy the driving experience


----------



## hardheadjarhead (Oct 3, 2005)

Rich,

This month's "Consumer Reports" has an article on the cars with the best mileage.  Would you say CR is reliable with those estimates?


Regards,


Steve


----------



## Andrew Green (Oct 3, 2005)

Prices will drop as soon as a alternative starts gaining enough popularity that it hurts them.

 Until then, what reason is there to drop fuel prices?  People need it, and are willing to pay to keep there trucks and SUV's on the road.  Once those people start driving hybrids or electrics or some other fuel source and fuel usage starts droppin, the fuel companies will drop prices to prevent more defection.  

 The alternatives will die, having invested a lot of money in getting started then the price drop on fuel kills the uptake, once the threat is gone fuel prices go back up.

 Simple economics unfortunately.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 3, 2005)

I have a few questions.

1- Why has the Bush administration cut or eliminated funding for alternate fuel sources, except for fuel-cells? A technology that won't be feasable for at least 30 years?

2- Why can GM produce and sell a vehicle, a mini-van in fact that averages 43 MPG city for only $5,000 in China?  They make a profit, it's Fuel-Smart, but not available in the US. (See Wuling Sunshine)

3- Why does buying a Hummer get you a tax break, but buying a hybrid not?

4- Why is the CAFE standards for the US only suggested to rise to 27.5 MPG car/22.5MPG SUV/lighttruck while the European Union is commited to requiring a 39MPG average for cars by 2008?

5- Why does the new energy bill give $8.1 BILLION! of it's $14.5B tax breaks to oil companies, who are already showing a 50% increase in profits?


Hmm....


----------



## arnisador (Oct 3, 2005)

You get a tax break for a Hummer?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Oct 3, 2005)

From what I hear.  I'm still waiting on the huge cash payoff for running MT to get one.
Hmm...the MT H3!


----------



## arnisador (Oct 3, 2005)

Hear, hear!


----------



## mantis (Oct 3, 2005)

they  stopped making the 2-cylendar cars, huh?
well.. running should be good exercise.. on the 5 freeway!


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> This month's "Consumer Reports" has an article on the cars with the best mileage.  Would you say CR is reliable with those estimates?
> 
> ...




Steve,

CR aka Consumer Reports does a pretty good job. There is no standard test for them to run. They drive the car to work and to the grocery store and on a trip. They ahve hte windows down and radio on and or the AC on and the windows up, depending . . . , . They try to use it like they own it, and they see who close it is. I have not read the latest CR, I will browse it and give you my opinion of their numbers.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 3, 2005)

** Warning ** Warning ** Disclaimer **

I am not a public representative for a company and cannot answer officially anything. I will present to you my best ideas on this subject though.



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I have a few questions.
> 
> 1- Why has the Bush administration cut or eliminated funding for alternate fuel sources, except for fuel-cells? A technology that won't be feasable for at least 30 years?



What I have heard and not confirmed:
Electric vehicles in California was cancelled by the Power companies when they presented the bill for the infrastructure changes. Everyone would have to pay for the changes, even if you did not buy an electric car. This would spread the cost around, yet is very poor politics. No one wants to sign up for that.

Compressed Natural Gas has an issue with range, and to make sure that it is available to avoid people being stranded is an issue. In larger cities for taxi's and buses this is great. 

Ethanol is ok and most vehicles today run on E85 which is 15% Ethanol. Yes this is backwards, just thank the government for Ethanol plus 85%Gas was their intention. Yet the fuel economy using this fuel is less than the fuel that does not have the Ethanol. Now Ethanol is good politics for farmers, but poor politics for fuel economy. 

Now if you look at E15, yes Ethanol and 85% GASOLINE, gets very poor fuel economy. From full size pick-up trucks  and suburans I have seen tested, the fuel economy goes from 17 MPG to 10 MPG if you are lucky. This is a very bad marketing hit, but like I said, Ethanol is renewable.

Also these technologies have been proven, just not cost feasible in the given climate for the public demands.

Fuel Cells maybe sooner than 30 years, but that is just a guesitmate.



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> 2- Why can GM produce and sell a vehicle, a mini-van in fact that averages 43 MPG city for only $5,000 in China?  They make a profit, it's Fuel-Smart, but not available in the US. (See Wuling Sunshine)



With Nafta all the jobs went south to Mexico, where they were paying $0.75 an hour many years ago. Well the quality places pay about $10 an hour with benefits.

In China they pay $10 or less a day for their labor. Also they have lots of people getting very poor wages, workign on the vehicle. The specifications for the Mini-Van are small per USA standards, and has no engine power, and would get run over. The 3 cyclinder Spectrum has more acceleration. Or at least once again this is what I have heard.



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> 3- Why does buying a Hummer get you a tax break, but buying a hybrid not?



The Hummer, the HEMI, and any other Truck you buy for Commerical use. Yes for business/Commercial Use. Now the Use is greater than 50%, so yes you can use it to go grocery shopping and maybe a trip up north, but this works with all trucks. The issues is that the HUMMER is flag ship of the SUV's and gets all the press for this.

I thought you did get a Tax Break on Hybrids through the end of this year. I think the current budget they are working on now would determine if they extend it out for future years of now.



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> 4- Why is the CAFE standards for the US only suggested to rise to 27.5 MPG car/22.5MPG SUV/lighttruck while the European Union is commited to requiring a 39MPG average for cars by 2008?



Smaller cars and Diesel. The penetraion of Diesel's is about 85% or greater in Europe. They have no problems living with the carbon exhaust. They now do require particulate filters on the exhaust which is more money into the vehicle.

Also that penetration of Manuals in Europe is about 85% with the automatic growing slowly.

Riddle me this. I have a 2000 Convertible Firebird with a 3800 V6 engine and a 5 speed transmission. When I race the car from stop light to stop light I get 23 to 25 MPG. When I drive normally and keep it under 75 MPH on the express with equal or more city driving I get about 27+ MPG. When I drive highway and keep it under 75 MPH I get 30 or 31 MPH. This is with a sports car. Now, some of this is becuase the manual can be shifted to optimize the fuel economy. So one might ask why not do this for our Automatics. When we do, everyone complains in JDP and at the dealership that the car has no power and the car drives like crap and the engine seems to be lugging sometimes.

So, if you want to get better fuel economy, buy a manual and drive it so you never go over 2000 RPM.



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> 5- Why does the new energy bill give $8.1 BILLION! of it's $14.5B tax breaks to oil companies, who are already showing a 50% increase in profits?
> 
> 
> Hmm....



This one I have no idea for.


As to the OIL though, in the old days Oil was just that and the quality was questionable and not repeatable. The engines ran hotter and dirtier. So changing the OIL every 3000 miles was ok. Now read your car manual or check the percent oil life remaining. The Car companies program in a safety margin, so if they can survive a 100,000 mile durabilty test with oil changes at 7500 miles or even 12000+ miles for some, and others that could go longer is the vehicle is driven in a manner to not heat the engine fast and or abuse the OIL. 

So to save money and OIL. Check your Manuals and followed the proscribed oil change in there. Now this does not mean if you check it and you smell it to be burnt, or it is gritty, that it should not be changed. So, check your oil from time to time and go in when the light goes off, or when your percentage is low like 5% of less. You can go to 0% and still drive the vehicle, just if you are towing or loading the vehicle, this could be a long term issue.


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Oct 4, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I have a few questions.
> 
> 1- Why has the Bush administration cut or eliminated funding for alternate fuel sources, except for fuel-cells? A technology that won't be feasable for at least 30 years?
> 
> ...


Good questions...

I think that the current power structure (both economic AND political) in the U.S. prevents serious work on alternative or more efficient vehicles. That's unfortunate as the supply of oil is not infinite. One possible good effect of high gas prices is, however, that consumers may DEMAND more fuel efficient vehicles.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 4, 2005)

They do say that gas consumption is decreasing...in fact, the paper said that fewer trips to the gas station have cigarette companies etc. worried about their sales at gas staion convenience stores!


----------



## arnisador (Oct 4, 2005)

Ah, the Hummer tax break is because it's allegedly for business use...I get it.

Thanks to *Rich Parsons* for the informed viewpoint on all those issues!


----------



## Rob Broad (Oct 4, 2005)

All of this is because you Americans live in a Dic-tator-ship.  That guy who sits in the oval office has the IQ of Mr. Potato Head, and  we all know he is a real d*ck.


----------



## arnisador (Oct 4, 2005)

How are the prices up there?

I remember in the early 70s, we'd drive across the border once a week to fill up because it was so much cheaper in Canada.


----------



## heretic888 (Oct 4, 2005)

Rob Broad said:
			
		

> All of this is because you Americans live in a Dic-tator-ship.  That guy who sits in the oval office has the IQ of Mr. Potato Head, and  we all know he is a real d*ck.



Technically, you're talking about two different men there. 

One has the IQ and speaking ability of a middle-schooler --- and the other one's first name rhymes with 'prick'.

Care to take a gander??


----------



## Rob Broad (Oct 4, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> How are the prices up there?
> 
> I remember in the early 70s, we'd drive across the border once a week to fill up because it was so much cheaper in Canada.




I am in Thunder Bay this week, and it has been $1.13.5  L since I got here.  

Down south it is cheaper


----------



## Rich Parsons (Oct 4, 2005)

hardheadjarhead said:
			
		

> Rich,
> 
> This month's "Consumer Reports" has an article on the cars with the best mileage.  Would you say CR is reliable with those estimates?
> 
> ...




Steve,

My apologies I was confused becuase you said latest, and the November issue had just arrived the other day.

In The October Issue it talks about how bad most cars are for the City EPA and then they tell you to look at the best and the worst in each class, the numbers presented in the Highlighted article with Best and Worst, are taking the Highway for the best and the City for the worst with Trucks being 4x4 etc, of the published data.

So I would have to say no these numbers are not indicative what you will get.


I also would have to say that if you are not getting what you think for MPH, try change gas stations to one that does not have ethanol in it. Yes it may cost you a couple of cents per gallon but you might see upwards of 1 to 2 MPG improvement.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

Average prices are around $2.60 now...much better news!


----------



## 7starmantis (Nov 2, 2005)

We finally made it down to $2.19 here.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 2, 2005)

Wow! I'm moving there!

They're talking about waving the gas tax here. They did that back in Indiana a few years back to lower gas prices.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 2, 2005)

I did not have time last night, but it was $2.27 last night by me.


----------



## Ray (Nov 2, 2005)

At lunch time today, it was around 2.05/gallon in Creston, Iowa.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 20, 2005)

It just got down to $2.03 today.

Although Diesel is still a lot higher, which gets passed onto the cost of parts and supplies shipped.


----------



## sgtmac_46 (Nov 20, 2005)

Rich Parsons said:
			
		

> It just got down to $2.03 today.
> 
> Although Diesel is still a lot higher, which gets passed onto the cost of parts and supplies shipped.


 I told my wife a couple of months ago, when gas prices started dropping, that the oil companies were going to start lowering prices to, what would appear, reasonable levels.  I also told her they'd tack the costs on the backend (heating prices, for example), basically on to ANYTHING that doesn't have a big sign by the road that says $4.56 A gallon.  We're going to pay, we're just not going to be as mad about it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 20, 2005)

I've switched half my home heating over to electric space heating, combined with weather proofing, and careful controling of which rooms are heated when.

I'll let ya'll know the results in a few weeks when the bills arrive.


----------



## Rich Parsons (Nov 20, 2005)

sgtmac_46 said:
			
		

> I told my wife a couple of months ago, when gas prices started dropping, that the oil companies were going to start lowering prices to, what would appear, reasonable levels. I also told her they'd tack the costs on the backend (heating prices, for example), basically on to ANYTHING that doesn't have a big sign by the road that says $4.56 A gallon. We're going to pay, we're just not going to be as mad about it.



This is true, if the people have their circuses and food then they will not complain.


----------



## arnisador (Nov 21, 2005)

Electric heating has traditionally been more expensive! Funny how things change.

Gas hear is still around $2.30.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 21, 2005)

I used a similar system this summer, isolating rooms to cool. My electric bill was around 75/month. That's with running several computers, printers and monitors 24/7


----------



## Jonathan Randall (Nov 21, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I've switched half my home heating over to electric space heating, combined with weather proofing, and careful controling of which rooms are heated when.
> 
> I'll let ya'll know the results in a few weeks when the bills arrive.


 
That's what I'm doing. Why pay to heat the kitchen overnight?


----------

