# Extra Stuff



## WhiteTiger (Dec 4, 2002)

I would like to know, what sort of "Extra Stuff" anyone has added to thier programs, over and above the requirements for AK or Tracy's.  You know to sort of fill the gaps, e.g. (groundfighting, katas, weapons, thowing and falling).   We have recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks.  We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw.  If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes.  Excellent tapes by the way.


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## Elfan (Dec 4, 2002)

I do falling, throwing, weapons work, groundfighting in addition to what I supose you would call the "standard" AK Kenpo requirements.  I don't look at it as fundamentally differnt stuff though.


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## Rainman (Dec 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> 
> *I would like to know, what sort of "Extra Stuff" anyone has added to thier programs, over and above the requirements for AK or Tracy's.  You know to sort of fill the gaps, e.g. (groundfighting, katas, weapons, thowing and falling).   We have recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks.  We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw.  If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes.  Excellent tapes by the way. *



Most all instructors have their own personal sets, forms and drills.  That is what your thesis for black and above is for.   Once you are able to engineer the movements of offensive or defensive material things will come in bunches.    Always good to see and feel what other instructors are doing.    I have a few extree two man sets that address other things then what original
2man does.   However they are supplemental and do not replace the original.    

 :asian:


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## c2kenpo (Dec 5, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> 
> *I would like to know, what sort of "Extra Stuff" anyone has added to thier programs, over and above the requirements for AK or Tracy's.  You know to sort of fill the gaps, e.g. (groundfighting, katas, weapons, thowing and falling).   We have recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks.  We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw.  If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes.  Excellent tapes by the way. *



Is this assing to our school curriculum? Or to our individual training?
Big difference between the two. 
Personally at our Purple and above group we begin to add groundwork and "insertions" but most of this we start to see as just part of the curriculum at that level.
The main thing I am adding to my Kenpo training is the CDT training system to balance out the "I can break your arm and nose and leg" and turn that into a one man situation that can be controlled and subdued without resorting to damage. 

Two men or more...well.. why do you think I train kenpo? 
Expand, Enunciate, Enlighten
Dave


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 6, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> 
> * I have a few extre two man sets that address other things then what original 2man does.   However they are supplemental and do not replace the original.
> 
> :asian: *




More two man sets would be cool.


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## Elfan (Dec 15, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jfarnsworth _
> *More two man sets would be cool. *



Then make some up!  There isn't some rule against creating your own forms.  You could have a class where everyone partners up and makes their own two man form.


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## Nightingale (Dec 18, 2002)

personally, I'd like to see groundfighting added.  I keep hearing that groundfighting is a part of kenpo, but I've never done it.  I  think if I ever ended up in a groundfight, I'd be totally lost.


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## Rainman (Dec 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *personally, I'd like to see groundfighting added.  I keep hearing that groundfighting is a part of kenpo, but I've never done it.  I  think if I ever ended up in a groundfight, I'd be totally lost. *



Doesn't need to be added- it already exits.


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## Nightingale (Dec 18, 2002)

EXACTLY!!!

people keep saying that its already there, but a lot of kenpo schools don't actively teach it. they just say its there.


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## Michael Billings (Dec 18, 2002)

The UKS has a very nice two-man staff set.  Contact Wes Idol or Bryan Hawkins for more info.

-Michael


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## Elfan (Dec 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *EXACTLY!!!
> 
> people keep saying that its already there, but a lot of kenpo schools don't actively teach it. they just say its there. *



Perhaps you could talk to your instructor about working to fix that.  Go out and learn "groundfighting stuf" and then bring it back to your school.  Sounds like a fun project to me. :-D


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## Nightingale (Dec 18, 2002)

lol. he knows how to ground fight.

its just not part of our curriculum (not required for belts) so it doesn't show up a lot in class.


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## jfarnsworth (Dec 18, 2002)

I think this subject takes a special kind of instructor with knowledge in ground fighting. Not all material we do works on the horizontal plane. Contact manipulation must be learned, practiced, tested over and over before you get a true understanding about ground fighting. I throughly enjoy myself each time I go into my friends class. He is so technically sound as is his students. If anyone would like to check him out pm me for his website. I will not just give it out right here.


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## Elfan (Dec 18, 2002)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *lol. he knows how to ground fight.
> 
> its just not part of our curriculum (not required for belts) so it doesn't show up a lot in class. *



Well start bugging him for  some more. ;-) Instructors can't improve the classes if you don't tell them what you want ;-)


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## Brother John (Dec 26, 2002)

I have my students practice juggling rabbid ferrets.
I feel that we, in American Kenpo, do not juggle small ferral animals nearly enough. It's a gapping hole in our curriculli!!! Think about it! It's been said for eons that 90% of all fighters "Go Ferral". Therefore the only logical plan of action: "Ferret Juggling"!!!! OH... I know, what about wolverines...etc. Wolverines are on the endangered list, not enough of them about. SOooo...what about our forms in which we are going through the motions of a good ole badger fight, well... it's not "realisitic" on today's streets, so it's out of our curriculum. Ferrets are where it's at!!!!
Cats are OK, but they make better projectiles really... landing claws first like they do.... but have you ever tried to shake off a rabbid ferret? It's quite the exerience. OH sure, the doctor's bills from all of those rabies shots gets expensive...but a martial artist has to pay ones dues if he's to survive his next rabid ferret attack!!! It's most crucial though to have your ferret attack you in a realistic way while you are juggling them. Don't want to train 'wrong'. Next week I'll be teaching a seminar on choke-holds on small forest creatures.
Don't laugh.... it's true! You ever try to strangle a possum? Sure the approch is easy with them going belly up and all, but then there's the grip... those guys are oily! And don't even get me going about hedgehogs! The quils are terribly difficult to get out of a heavy canvas Gi, let alone your flesh on the inside of that Gi. I'm still working on my curriculum for dealing with the savage attacks from wide-mouth bass!! All too common these days, those uppity fish! Something must be done.
Something must also be done about those darned eel assualts too.
There are sooo many holes in our work...
Back to the drawing board!!!!!!!
Your Brorther (did you know that Llamas SPIT!!)
John
:idunno:


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## Brother John (Dec 26, 2002)

Too much egg-nog!!!!
Y.B.
J


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## Les (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Brother John _
> *I have my students practice juggling rabbid ferrets.
> Your Brorther (did you know that Llamas SPIT!!)
> John
> :idunno: *



Here in England, Ferret Juggling has been outlawed.

I did see a very funny movie called 'Kung Pow' where the hero defeated hoards of enemies with a pair of 'Gopher Chuks', but unfortunately, we dont have gophers in this country.

Hedgehog Shurikens are probably the best we could come up with, but I certainly wouldn't want to juggle with them.

Les


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## Sigung86 (Dec 26, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Rainman _
> *Doesn't need to be added- it already exits. *



Too true!  Thank you Rainman!!! :asian: 


Dan


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## Rainman (Dec 30, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Sigung86 _
> *Too true!  Thank you Rainman!!! :asian:
> 
> 
> Dan *



You're welcome 

:asian:


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## Jill666 (Dec 30, 2002)

Oh Brother John-

I knew those ferrets had to have a better purpose than stealing my car keys and laying across my neck at night, promoting dreams of being strangled by a curiously furry constrictor.

By the way, the only thing more disturbing than that little stick figure you got is the "chorus girl" edition.


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## feintem (Dec 31, 2002)

A good instuctor will know who and when to give . If the basic kenpo is questionable why confuse the student with extras. The key is self defence or shall I say self preservation.Women and children to me should only learn ground defence unless you think you attacker is going to the groud  to hug you.I thank not  no chid or woman is going to armbar or choke out a 230 pound man. Thats the person your instuctor should gear you up for. if not take sally or little bobby and put them on the ground with the 230 pound man and see what happens no armbar no choke just rape. Do not give pepole a false sence of security.Remember we walk on two feet it is natural to fight standing(or it is for me).
Hone the stanging kenpo and then go to the ground. Pepole will use groung fighting as a cruch and set up their sand up for the ground. It should be the other way around. Is it happen all the time.

                                        Just my thoughts, 
                                                                      Michael


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## RCastillo (Dec 31, 2002)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *I would like to know, what sort of "Extra Stuff" anyone has added to thier programs, over and above the requirements for AK or Tracy's.  You know to sort of fill the gaps, e.g. (groundfighting, katas, weapons, thowing and falling).   We have recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks.  We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw.  If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes.  Excellent tapes by the way. *



I might be missing something, but the Tracy system has so much already, I'm trying to keep my head above water!

The only extra stuff I do is run, lift, and work on keeping the weight down!


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 31, 2002)

"Women and children," eh?

Oh boy.


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## Jill666 (Dec 31, 2002)

Are you a woman or child? Suppose you let the instructor teack all the material to the women present and let them work it on a 230 lb. man to find out what will and what will not work on the street. 

Maybe I have misunderstood you. If not, :2xbird:


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## Nightingale (Dec 31, 2002)

I'd say that the instructor probably has a really good idea of what will and won't work already. Otherwise he shouldn't be teaching. (and Feintem is an instructor, and a very good one at that.)  

There's no point in wasting time learning stuff that just plain won't work.   Let the instructor decide what to teach and when. Some groundfighting will work for women. a lot won't, and you shouldn't give someone false hope that they can go to the ground, because the ground is the most dangerous place to be for a smaller opponent.  An instructor shouldn't make most women and any children feel like they can handle a ground match, because they usually can't.  Skill counts a lot, but in some situations, muscle and weight and power can count more.  An opponent's muscle and power can put you in a situation where all your skill is worthless.  You can't hit him if you can't move.  The ground is a place you never, ever want to be.


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## Jill666 (Dec 31, 2002)

Agreed in most respects. When the oppontent has so many advantages, size, weight, social conditioning, etc, few women my size will prevail. I know very well the dangers of the clinch, being backed into a corner by a man with a weapon, being on the ground. I've been there. But stating as a blanket that women and children should not be taught ground techniques regardless of skill, courage or will is unsupportable. 

Yes, a good teacher will know the capabilities of his students. I hate to think a good teacher would hold back skills/techniques presuming I could not execute them. If I am physically incapable of making a technqiue work in a situation, my experience is my instructor and my uke will work with me to find what does work. Then we all learn. 

Should I fight until I get knocked down and then say "oh, well, I'm a woman who can't fight on the ground it's too dangerous, you can rape me now". Nope. No f'n way. Prevention is key, but if I'm on the gorund (worst case senario) I am going to do something, anything. Hopefully I will have the skills I have been developing for the past years in addition to the will that got me through the dangers I've faced before. :soapbox:


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## rmcrobertson (Dec 31, 2002)

I've seen Mr. Grilli fight and run techniques, and I agree, he's very good. Seems like a nice guy, too, despite a weird willingness to fight Clyde and William...

Nevertheless, I'm objecting to the "women and children," part. I don't care for that particular grouping, and beyond that I don't agree that all women (any more than all men) are the same. I know women who can indeed choke out a 230-lb. guy; in fact, I can offhand think of four.

I also know some pretty small men who could choke out a 230-lb. guy. In fact, look at the original judo guys...not as big as me, let alone Mr. Grilli. It might be better to go with the idea of jusst teaching the kenpo system, without assuming that one person or another can or cannot simply because of initial experiences with them, or their appearance, or one's assumptions.

Just to be totally contradictory, two of the worst ma demos I've ever seen involved a) a demo of out-and-out pathetic Shotokan techniques that were described to the audience as, "women's techniques;" and b) a demo by one of the Villari schools of two 12-year-old girls taking on two grown men in a fashion that would get the girls at least killed. 

Realism, sure. A priori assumptions about who can do what, no. Or maybe I misread...the New Year's making me cranky.

Thanks; it's an interesting question.


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## D_Brady (Jan 1, 2003)

heres just my 2 cents.  I have a student she 43 years old runs 3-5 miles every day trains at the gym 3 days aweek . When she first came to me I said what is your biggest fear about being attacked. I asked this already knowing she was in good shape so there must be reason for her being here other than her son is also A student of mine. She said Im a nurse I work at night till 1am and its a long walk to my car at night . I KNOW if I was choked from behind and or thrown to the ground I'd be DEAD!

She is 5ft3 114lbs, yes arm bars and chokes are not the first thing I taught her.For thar matter neither was a horse stance, when someome comes to you with a self-Protection issue I feel that should be the issue at hand. I put her in various chokes based on.... If I was going to RAPE her how would I go about it.

  What choke might I use, would I try to drag her off some where or just tackle her and do her rotten right there. Then show her based those(my) attacks what targets might be found, and weapons..elbows,knees headbutts bites, eyegoudges, rips tares and aything else . I told her your not just defending you yourself your defending you sons mother and the person who pays his tuition so please keep this in mind.Deal with the issue at hand, yea maybe they might only be a student for a short while but that might all there looking for. She came to me looking for a teacher not an instructor IMHO, Teachers will teach based on the needs of the student,Insructor has a set pattern that everyone must follow, We will talk about your needs later.


I know let the shooting begin..... I know there are teachers who must be instructors and instructors who indeed teach.When some one comes to with a realistic need we (I) have a responsibility to try to meet that need the best I can. Or direct them to someone who can, and not spam them with stuff thet don't need.



I do not have the fear of being attacked from behind and RAPED and I will not pretend to relate to it. I will do the best I can for those who do know.

 ok sorry maybe this was more like 4 cents.


 Respectfully   Dan Brady


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## sammy3170 (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by nightingale8472 _
> *lol. he knows how to ground fight.
> 
> its just not part of our curriculum (not required for belts) so it doesn't show up a lot in class. *



When I did American Kenpo we did stuff all ground fighting. If you want to see a pretty cool American Kenpo groundfighting technique check out Paul Mills' site and download his videos.  Only one is from the ground but it's pretty awesome.  I think the site is www.akks.com.

Cheers
Sammy


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## sammy3170 (Jan 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by sammy3170 _
> *When I did American Kenpo we did stuff all ground fighting. If you want to see a pretty cool American Kenpo groundfighting technique check out Paul Mills' site and download his videos.  Only one is from the ground but it's pretty awesome.  I think the site is www.akks.com.
> 
> Cheers
> Sammy *




make that www.akki.com

Cheers
Sammy


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## rmcrobertson (Jan 1, 2003)

Mr. Brady's post made pretty good sense to me, for what that's worth. It seemed to me to emphasize taking students on a case-by-case basis, for one thing...


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## Jill666 (Jan 1, 2003)

Agreed- ideal whenever possible & within reason


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## Doc (Jan 2, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *I would like to know, what sort of "Extra Stuff" anyone has added to thier programs, over and above the requirements for AK or Tracy's.  You know to sort of fill the gaps, e.g. (groundfighting, katas, weapons, thowing and falling).   We have recently added a joint lock (2) person kata to practice obtaining and transitioning differant holds and joint locks.  We do 14 differant joint locks on each side ending in a throw.  If you would like to see the Joint Lock Kata it is on Joe Simonet's Beyond Kenpo tapes.  Excellent tapes by the way. *



The "extra stuff" is called "Kenpo that should be getting." :asian:


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## GaryM (Jan 23, 2003)

When she first came to me I said what is your biggest fear about being attacked. 
 Why didn't I think of that. I feel stupid for not having thought of this . Thankyou very much , Gary


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## Michael Billings (Jan 24, 2003)

I used to teach Women's Self-Defense at World Gym.  Now I teach a six week Women's Self-Defense seminar every so often out of my school.  We do not have the time to develop a good horse stance or punch.  For this class it is elbows, heel palms, claws and knees, release moves, natural weapons and targets (eyes, throat, groin, knees).  The goal is: 

1.  Not to get caught (be aware - we spend time on Acceptance, Environmental Awareness, and then move on to what to do about it.)
2.  Introduce the idea of channeling the adreanal response into a startle reflex that deters an attacker - Yell, shout, knee, stomp the foot or knee, etc.

It is not "extra" per se, but all contained within Kenpo, just extracted as the maximum that a person can assimilate in a time limited class.

I feel good about offerring it and in the event it helps even one person, it is worth my time, and their's.

-Michael
 AKTS - Texas


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## D_Brady (Jan 24, 2003)

I'm sure the feeling  you have knowing that, makes up for all the hills of crap you have to climb over in other parts of your life.

 You just can't put a price on that. When you see the look of relief in some ones eyes after that find out they don't have to be a victim, no matter what the media has told them.

 Those people may have never known that feeling if you had not offerd that course. Theirs a lot of reasons for some one not to join a school ( contracts, limited times,family obligations) or bad things they herd about the martial art world. Mr.Paul Dye once told me that you have taken from kenpo long enough, at some point you better start giving back.

 The course you offer is a win win situation, good for you better for them.

  Congrats.

                     Dan Brady.


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## Kenpomachine (Jan 25, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *I used to teach Women's Self-Defense at World Gym.  Now I teach a six week Women's Self-Defense seminar every so often out of my school.  We do not have the time to develop a good horse stance or punch.  For this class it is elbows, heel palms, claws and knees, release moves, natural weapons and targets (eyes, throat, groin, knees).  The goal is:
> 
> 1.  Not to get caught (be aware - we spend time on Acceptance, Environmental Awareness, and then move on to what to do about it.)
> ...



Yes, it's in kenpo. We did some of this stuff on thursday, being half&half guys and gals. We were standing and the guys were to attack us from behind. Some of the techniques we use were in the program, but there were also yellows belts there who just had to react to the attack. It was all about learning to react in case such a situation arise. Have the adrenaline surge works in your favor and not against you


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