# ATA success story!!!!



## Gorilla (Jul 28, 2010)

As I have stated in the past we are a Comp Team of about 20 fighters.  Our Master has very high standards for fitness and work ethic.  He will let anyone try out for the team  but he does not slow things down for them.  Most quit after a week.  We had a 15 year old kid try out from ATA he was a Red Advanced belt.  Master Blackburn Usually honors the belts given by other studios this kid was so bad he moved him back to white belt.  No body expected him to last!  Four months later he has been promoted to yellow belt is showings signs of major improvement.  He is training in the Las Vegas heat 110 at the track last night for 2 1/2 hours.  We are all very impressed!!!  He still needs allot of work but he has something you can't teach heart.  This is very hard Training our MMA fighter who is in very good shape puked 2 times.  It was a real gut check our ATA kid had what it took!!!!


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2010)

That is great news and tell Master Blackburn hello for me.


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## ATC (Jul 28, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> As I have stated in the past we are a Comp Team of about 20 fighters. Our Master has very high standards for fitness and work ethic. He will let anyone try out for the team but he does not slow things down for them. Most quit after a week. We had a 15 year old kid try out from ATA he was a Red Advanced belt. Master Blackburn Usually honors the belts given by other studios this kid was so bad he moved him back to white belt. No body expected him to last! Four months later he has been promoted to yellow belt is showings signs of major improvement. He is training in the Las Vegas heat 110 at the track last night for 2 1/2 hours. We are all very impressed!!! He still needs allot of work but he has something you can't teach heart. This is very hard Training our MMA fighter who is in very good shape puked 2 times. It was a real gut check our ATA kid had what it took!!!!


That is great to hear Tal. We also have an ATA kid that just came to our Dojang. He is 16 years old and was a black belt. We to let people keep their belts and let this kid keep his. He is not on our fight team as like you stated is really a white belt wearing a black belt at this point. But he is also trying real hard to prove himself. Master Suh just told this kid that he will need to go to our traditional classes with all the color belts until his technique and conditioning is upto par. I think it will be a couple of years before he is ready to be on our competition team but we will see if he has what it takes.

That is the good thing about kids, they are moldable. Even after being molded badly, someone with the talent of Master Blackburn or Master Suh can re-mold them into somethng better.

Keep us posted.


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## Blindside (Jul 28, 2010)

I think the title of the thread is misleading, there is absolutly no indication of success from the ATA here, only success of these individuals and their new instructors.


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## Fing Fang Foom (Jul 28, 2010)

I feel stupid, but what is "ATA"?


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## ArmorOfGod (Jul 28, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> . He is training in the Las Vegas heat 110 at the track last night for 2 1/2 hours. We are all very impressed!!!


 
Do you think this is a good idea though?  I live in the deep south and for the past week or two, it has been 100+ with massively high humidity.
Please tell him to not do that.  That is an unnecessary (and dangerous) risk to take.

AoG


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 28, 2010)

Fing Fang Foom said:


> I feel stupid, but what is "ATA"?


The American Taekwondo Association.  They use Songham forms (as opposed to Taegeuk or Chang Hon).  They are a very large taekwondo organization in the US.  

The ATA also uses a two tiered system of of belts, the tiers being recommended and decided, thus you can be a yellow belt recommended and then a yellow belt decided.  They are, to my knowledge, the only organization that uses that particular phraseology. 

The ATA is frequently accused of being overly commercial and more expensive than schools of other organizations.  There are a fair number of threads deriding the organization, primarily due to business and training practices rather than due to the material itself.  Their sparring rules mandate a level of padding equal to or greater than that of the WTF, yet allows for only light contact (from what I understand).

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jul 28, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The ATA also uses a two tiered system of of belts, the tiers being recommended and decided, thus you can be a yellow belt recommended and then a yellow belt decided.  They are, to my knowledge, the only organization that uses that particular phraseology.



There are a handful of other ATA-splinter orgs that keep the same low/high belt ranks.  The ITA is probably the biggest one.



Daniel Sullivan said:


> The ATA is frequently accused of being overly commercial and more expensive than schools of other organizations.  There are a fair number of threads deriding the organization, primarily due to business and training practices rather than due to the material itself.  Their sparring rules mandate a level of padding equal to or greater than that of the WTF, yet allows for only light contact (from what I understand).



They wear head gear and hogu along with the usual other hand and foot pads.  Some ATA schools don't allow contact AT ALL.  Thankfully, not all of them are that 'safety' oriented.

My niece and nephew train with the ATA and they enjoy it.  It's quite expensive though because of the high tuition, mandatory ATA-branded gear and uniforms, and big emphasis on ATA-sanctioned tournaments.  My sister spends at least $250 a month minimum per kid on their TKD activities.  As a kid-friendly program however, they can't be beat with lots of cheery, youthful instructors.


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## Fing Fang Foom (Jul 28, 2010)

TY!

I have no clue what orginization that our families Dojang falls under... but now I am curious and will ask tomorrow


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

Blindside said:


> I think the title of the thread is misleading, there is absolutly no indication of success from the ATA here, only success of these individuals and their new instructors.



I did not mean to mislead...It was a simple thread about a kid with heart who came to our team and is having success...He happened to train at ATA


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

ArmorOfGod said:


> Do you think this is a good idea though?  I live in the deep south and for the past week or two, it has been 100+ with massively high humidity.
> Please tell him to not do that.  That is an unnecessary (and dangerous) risk to take.
> 
> AoG



We have been doing this for four years now and it is necessary for what we are trying to accomplish.  The ability to handle hardship is a must if you have very high goals...We stay highly hydrated


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I did not mean to mislead...It was a simple thread about a kid with heart who came to our team and is having success...He happened to train at ATA


Perhaps it should read former ATA student succeeds?  An ATA success story would be more along the lines of a current ATA member joining USAT (without leaving the ATA) and making the US Olympic team, or an ATA member winning his or her weight division in the UFC.  

Or something less grandiose, such as an ATA member using their ATA training to defend themselves or their family successfully.

Daniel


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## terryl965 (Jul 29, 2010)

I believe it is his thread and he felt the name was OK, I would also like to say we have had alot of ATA people come here and they have not lasted more than the two week trail. Mainly because of the sparring here they only kick without touching.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

terryl965 said:


> I would also like to say we have had alot of ATA people come here and they have not lasted more than the two week trail. Mainly because of the sparring here they only kick without touching.


The lack of contact in ATA sparring is pretty amazing given that they wear the same gear that WTF competitors do.  

From what I have read, the rah-rah-ataboy stuff really is the focus of the organization, making it a kid friendly atmosphere, but the cost is inexcusible.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> From what I have read, the rah-rah-ataboy stuff really is the focus of the organization, making it a kid friendly atmosphere, but the cost is inexcusible.
> Daniel



I've heard more than one ATA sales person describe their system as the Rolls Royce of martial arts education.  Maybe the line is in their promotional literature somewhere.


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've heard more than one ATA sales person describe their system as the Rolls Royce of martial arts education.  Maybe the line is in their promotional literature somewhere.


The Price is Rolls Royce. The product is somewhat lacking.  The father of our ATA kid feels he was ripped off.  I did not want this to become an ATA bash but they did charge him $200 for a TKD bag.

His monthly fee with us is one third of what he paid at ATA.  The dad is a great guy and we do rib him a little about the ATA.  One of the other Parents tried to sell him an old worn out pair of TKD Shoes for $300 with team name scrolled on it in magic marker.  He is a great sport and in the end he said the ATA is like a cult they keep you in the dark and most of the parents just don't know any better.  He also stated that for most it is a good program because they would not be able to put in the work that is required in real Martial Arts.  So they fit a need.  It is a martial Arts "themed" after school program.


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

Fing Fang Foom said:


> TY!
> 
> I have no clue what orginization that our families Dojang falls under... but now I am curious and will ask tomorrow




Let us know! What is the name of you School it is a small world we may know your school.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> The Price is Rolls Royce. The product is somewhat lacking.



Perhaps a minor distinction, but I think the ATA product (curriculum) is fine compared to most peers.  They have the same teaching methods most other TKD schools employ:  forms, one steps, and self-defense drills.   Where they fall apart as a group is that their business really isn't about producing skilled martial artists.  It's about selling a fun, friendly, martial themed activity to children 14 and under in a safe, clean, brightly lit and decorated location.  It takes money to do that, hence partially the reason for the high fees.  

Also many ATA school owners are full-time, meaning the school is their living.  I imagine it's tough to hoe that row while striving to teach to a high standard.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I've heard more than one ATA sales person describe their system as the Rolls Royce of martial arts education. Maybe the line is in their promotional literature somewhere.


An apt description. 

Though not in the way that the salesperson intended.

Compare the cost vs. performance of a Rolls versus pretty much anything else. Any other car of equal cost will out perform the Rolls so handily that it is laughable. That includes former sister division Bentley, anything with a three point star, and most definitely anything with a trident, a prancing horse, or a rampant bull. Even with BMW owning them, any BMW will out perform the Rolls in every category except volume and comfort. 

Spend half the money and get a CTS-V and there isn't a Rolls that's been built that will be able to keep up with you. On the straights, through the slalom, around the track, or anywhere else. You'll get better mileage and stop a whole lot better too.

Spend even less and you can get a Taurus SHO that, while not as fast as the Caddy, will still lay a beat down on the Rolls and get you there in more than reasonable comfort.

Spend a whole* ton* less on, say an Acura TSX, and excepting *maybe* straight line acceleration (V6 is 5.9 seconds, 4 is 7.5), interior volume, and comfort, the Acura will also outperform the Rolls in virtually every performance category.

Seeing as how martial arts are not meant to be comfortable or luxurious, but to enable you to *perform* when your life depends on it or to *perform* when you are in competion, yes, I'd say that the Rolls Royce comparison might be appropriate.

Does that mean that the Rolls is a bad car? Of course not. It wasn't designed to be a sports sedan, sports car, or to really be a performance car on any level. It was designed to carry passengers in comfort and perform well enough to be driven safely. 

Does that make the ATA bad? Not in and of itself, though the ATA seems to want to maintain the illusion that their product is equal to or batter than that of other organizations, which from all indications, simply is not true.

I grant that it is likely the most well developed martial fitness family and kids program in existance. 

Unlike the Rolls, however, there is no status or snob factor to be had for the high prices. Outside of the ATA, the program is looked down upon as simply overpriced. The Rolls also holds its value, something the ATA product does not, as demonstrated by Terry and Gorilla.

Daniel


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Perhaps a minor distinction, but I think the ATA product (curriculum) is fine compared to most peers. They have the same teaching methods most other TKD schools employ: forms, one steps, and self-defense drills.


The Rolls and a Subaru Legacy Outback both have wheels, a reciprocating engine, a transmission, and all of the compenents necessary to get down the road. The Subaru will outperform the Rolls in most every category with the possible exception of straight line acceleration. Acceleration per dollar, however, and the Rolls is horrible.  Not to mention that the Subaru will get you through weather and terrain that a Rolls can't.



dancingalone said:


> Where they fall apart as a group is that their business really isn't about producing skilled martial artists. *It's about selling a fun, friendly, martial themed activity to children 14 and under in a safe, clean, brightly lit and decorated location.* It takes money to do that, hence partially the reason for the high fees.


Bingo, so the curriculum really is unimportant. 



dancingalone said:


> Also many ATA school owners are full-time, meaning the school is their living. I imagine it's tough to hoe that row while striving to teach to a high standard.


I don't know if I can cut them slack for this. Plenty of places in my area offer safe, clean, and brightly lit places in good locations, do it full time, and still seem to be able to keep the 'martial' in the mix. 

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> The Rolls and a Subaru Legacy Outback both have wheels, a reciprocating engine, a transmission, and all of the compenents necessary to get down the road. The Subaru will outperform the Rolls in most every category with the possible exception of straight line acceleration. Acceleration per dollar, however, and the Rolls is horrible.  Not to mention that the Subaru will get you through weather and terrain that a Rolls can't.
> 
> 
> Bingo, so the curriculum really is unimportant.



I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it.  I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine.  It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.



> I don't know if I can cut them slack for this. Plenty of places in my area offer safe, clean, and brightly lit places in good locations, do it full time, and still seem to be able to keep the 'martial' in the mix.
> Daniel



True enough.  Let's just say I empathize.  I know how much the rent is on one of the local ATA studios.  It's not cheap.


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## terryl965 (Jul 29, 2010)

Daniel what you say is true, alot of Martial Art schools are fulltime and they make a living.The ATA schools in my aerea make a ton of money, I will not mention names here but the owner of the one in my area made gross over $725,000 and netted probaly about $175,000. Now to me that is so much larger than any real commercial school keeping the martial arts in any school. His money comes from having over 100 kids in an afterschool programe and also a summer camp. They change like $175.00 a month per child and an additional fee for weapons, leadership team,swat and some others. They do it like nobody else can, the are my hero's when it comes to making money with a simple prodect. I will never be an ATA school but man can they bring in the kids.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it. I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine. It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.


Sure, I'll bet you could.  I got a 1977 Cadillac Coupe De'Ville to corner like a slot car, accelerate like a 5.0 GT Mustang, and brake like it had parachutes.  Just one car, though.  And lots of tuning and adjustment, and enough time and money spent that I could have bought a used 5.0.   



dancingalone said:


> True enough. Let's just say I empathize. I know how much the rent is on one of the local ATA studios. It's not cheap.


I empathize, but only to a point.  I do not believe in misrepresenting a program.  

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I empathize, but only to a point.  I do not believe in misrepresenting a program.



At the risk of going off topic, I would speculate that there are many, many ma schools that purport to teach self-defense, yet do not in reality.  I don't see the reason to single out the ATA for censure in this.  It is what it is.  At least the ATA is suitably famous or infamous, so someone really interested in hardcore training can do his research on the Internet about them.  We can't say the same about many smaller studios who might suffer from some of the same afflictions.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> At the risk of going off topic, I would speculate that there are many, many ma schools that purport to teach self-defense, yet do not in reality. I don't see the reason to single out the ATA for censure in this. It is what it is. At least the ATA is suitably famous or infamous, so someone really interested in hardcore training can do his research on the Internet about them. We can't say the same about many smaller studios who might suffer from some of the same afflictions.


I don't single them out. This happens to be an ATA thread, however, so they are the ones being discussed.

I think, however that there is at least two major differences between the ATA and other MA schools that teach an MA but not SD:

Firstly, the ATA has systematized its methods and thus affect far more people than probably any of the others. Affect in a good way or a bad way really depends on what you're looking for; I make no value judgement.

Secondly, self defense is so broad in its definition that it can include almost anything. Yes, you can defend yourself with only punches. That is not as good as being able to do so with punches and kicks, which is not as good as being able to do so with punches, kicks, and grapples.

The representation part is not that they claim to teach self defense but don't.  It is that the ATA represents itself as offering *high end martial arts instruction*, on par with or superior to what others offer, and this simply is not the case. They offer a high end martial arts themed after school/family fitness program. The rest is (based on virtually everthing that I have read, been told, or seen over a period of years) mediocre, mainly due to an emphasis on profitablility.

Then there is the poor ratio of dollars spend vs. quality of the product received. And that certainly not unique to the ATA. They just happen to have a ton of schools.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

This is the view of our "Former ATA dad".  He wasted two years and they ripped him off.

He also stated the many ATA parents are very happy with the program because it gives them what they are looking for.  Most would be scared to death of real Martial Arts instruction.

Most of the kids from ATA have a certain level of affluence and will most likely never need to defend themselves in a serious situation.  Notice I said most likely
if they ever do their ATA instruction will be of minimum help.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> Most of the kids from ATA have a certain level of affluence and will most likely never need to defend themselves in a serious situation.  Notice I said most likely
> if they ever do their ATA instruction will be of minimum help.



That's certainly the demographic of the school my niece and nephew go to.  Lots of higher end cars in the parking lots and the moms frequently come to class to cheer their kiddos on since they frequently don't work.  Not a bad set of customers to sell to.

I think most of the parents are fairly aware of the nature of the instruction they are getting.  This is exactly what they want.


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## Balrog (Jul 29, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or something less grandiose, such as an ATA member using their ATA training to defend themselves or their family successfully.


Plenty of those stories around.  Nobody really cares about tournament performance.


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## Balrog (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Perhaps a minor distinction, but I think the ATA product (curriculum) is fine compared to most peers.  They have the same teaching methods most other TKD schools employ:  forms, one steps, and self-defense drills.   Where they fall apart as a group is that their business really isn't about producing skilled martial artists.  It's about selling a fun, friendly, martial themed activity to children 14 and under in a safe, clean, brightly lit and decorated location.  It takes money to do that, hence partially the reason for the high fees.


Actually, no - it's not.



> Also many ATA school owners are full-time, meaning the school is their living.  I imagine it's tough to hoe that row while striving to teach to a high standard.


Why would that be an issue?  I tell my students when they start that they only thing they buy is equipment and lessons.  Everything else is earned.  Doesn't seem to be an issue.


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## Gorilla (Jul 29, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Plenty of those stories around.  Nobody really cares about tournament performance.



Some people do!  Many love Martial Sport.  I happen to love Martial Sport, Martial Art and Self Defense.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Actually, no - it's not.
> 
> 
> Why would that be an issue?  I tell my students when they start that they only thing they buy is equipment and lessons.  Everything else is earned.  Doesn't seem to be an issue.



Balrog, I have no interest in bashing the ATA.  That said, since you're 'talking' to me, I'll tell you where I am coming from.  I have considerable experience taking my niece and nephew to class and to tournaments and observing the type of instruction, training, and competition both in the studio and away at tournaments where kids from other schools come.  And what I said above is my impression of the ATA business model from observations made during this time.  I'm fully aware my own observations will not match what is in the average ATA studio business plan, but that's hardly surprising.  Reality frequently runs away from intentions.


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## dancingalone (Jul 29, 2010)

> Nobody really cares about tournament performance.


I disagree.  My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'.  It's pushed by the studio owners too.


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## Carol (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I disagree.  My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'.  It's pushed by the studio owners too.



And those 6 foot trophies!


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## Twin Fist (Jul 29, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I bet I could take the Songahm curriculum and turn out good students with it.  I'm making the point that the curriculum is fine.  It's just the intentional lack of enforcement of martial standards that spoils the whole barrel of apples for them.




QFT

the problem is that no one enforces standards, and then the crappy BB's go on to open schools and produce more crappy BB's and so on and so on and so on etc etc


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## Balrog (Aug 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Balrog, I have no interest in bashing the ATA.  That said, since you're 'talking' to me, I'll tell you where I am coming from.  I have considerable experience taking my niece and nephew to class and to tournaments and observing the type of instruction, training, and competition both in the studio and away at tournaments where kids from other schools come.  And what I said above is my impression of the ATA business model from observations made during this time.  I'm fully aware my own observations will not match what is in the average ATA studio business plan, but that's hardly surprising.  Reality frequently runs away from intentions.


Ok, I stand corrected.

I have tremendous issues with things like MASS, etc., which a lot of the school owners have gone to.  The business model interferes with the primary objective of teaching quality martial arts.  And that is specifically why I ignore that stuff when I hear people advocating it for business practices.


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## Balrog (Aug 2, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> I disagree.  My niece and nephew chase tournament points all the time, just like their peers, so they can earn those coveted 'championships'.  It's pushed by the studio owners too.


Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect.  However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:

1.  Make a new friend.
2.  Learn something new.
3.  Do your very best.
4.  Have fun!

If they do those four, then the tournament is a success.  I don't care if they win or lose; what's important is that they overcame their issues about public performance and went out and gave it their best shot.  If they get a medal, that's just the cherry on top of the whipped cream.


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## terryl965 (Aug 2, 2010)

Well I will only add this people judge you on what have you done lately and if your schools does tournaments than you are judge by win/lost record solely. Sorrow we all tell our student to ahve fun and such but in the end people come because you win, if you lost all the time people see you as not a good instructor, it is the same in any sport


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## bignick (Aug 2, 2010)

There's a reason the term McDojo came about.  To me they're a lowest common denominator franchising operation.  That being said, there is nothing stopping any single ATA school from rising above and producing quality instruction, and some certainly do.  However, that is not the base focus of the business model as others have said.


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## Gorilla (Aug 2, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect.  However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:
> 
> 1.  Make a new friend.
> 2.  Learn something new.
> ...



I agree with much of what you said...For my son this still applies he is only 13...But for my daughter this has changed when you are member of a National Team and you are fighting internationally,  when you are competing @ a National Level for team spots and your coaches are putting in the time and energy to help you reach the highest level then winning becomes *VERY* Important.  When people are investing time and $ in what you do then it raises the stakes.  If someone is paying for you to go to Korea to compete.  Its is your responsibility to do everything that you can (within the Rules) to win.


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## mango.man (Aug 2, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Well, I was speaking primarily from a self-defense aspect.  However, I still train my students that when you go to tournaments, there are only four things that you MUST do:
> 
> 1.  Make a new friend.
> 2.  Learn something new.
> ...



I am pretty sure that we have 4 rules at our school when we travel to competition:

1:  Listen to your coaches instructions.
2:  If you are wearing red, you are to kick the crap outta the person in blue.
3:  If you are wearing blue, you are to kick the crap outta the person in red.
4:  Win or lose, you better be a good sport about the outcome.


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## Balrog (Aug 4, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> I agree with much of what you said...For my son this still applies he is only 13...But for my daughter this has changed when you are member of a National Team and you are fighting internationally,  when you are competing @ a National Level for team spots and your coaches are putting in the time and energy to help you reach the highest level then winning becomes *VERY* Important.  When people are investing time and $ in what you do then it raises the stakes.  If someone is paying for you to go to Korea to compete.  Its is your responsibility to do everything that you can (within the Rules) to win.


True.  That is an entirely different level of competition, much like someone who sets the goal to compete in the Olympics.  Orders of magnitude in difference.


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## Gorilla (Aug 4, 2010)

By the way they went 3 hours in the Vegas heat last night at the track. It was a grueling three hours.  Training is at it highest intensity.  We have 4 Athletes going to Korea at the end of the month to compete in the Korean Open.  They are members of the team that Master Young In Cheon is taking to the Korean Open.  Our Coach is also going!  Then the Next week we have 3 members going to the AAU Team trails.

I would like to say that our ATA kid is still going.  I think that we will start to phase out the ATA kid title because he has made the transition.


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## terryl965 (Aug 4, 2010)

Good for him and glad he is on the right track for him now. Keep working out it is the way to the top.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 4, 2010)

Balrog said:


> Plenty of those stories around.  Nobody really cares about tournament performance.


I don't, certainly, but I was addressing the fact that the title of the thread, ATA Success story, does not match the content of the OP.

Given the amount of flack the ATA catches on most forums, I would actually like to see posts about ATA success stories.  If they are out there, people should post about them.  Many of the threads, if not all of the threads, that I see about the ATA are almost entirely one sided, with detractors being virtually the only ones posting.  

Observations in my previous posts are based on what I have read and heard about the ATA, both from posters and from their website.  Certainly, I have no stake in the outcome or direction of ATA discussions.  It would be nice to see them not be so one sided.

Daniel


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## Gorilla (Aug 5, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> I don't, certainly, but I was addressing the fact that the title of the thread, ATA Success story, does not match the content of the OP.
> 
> Given the amount of flack the ATA catches on most forums, I would actually like to see posts about ATA success stories.  If they are out there, people should post about them.  Many of the threads, if not all of the threads, that I see about the ATA are almost entirely one sided, with detractors being virtually the only ones posting.
> 
> ...



ATA bashing was not the intent of the thread.  The intent was to show that a kid who came out of ATA had the heart to succeed in a very tough program like TDT.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 5, 2010)

Gorilla said:


> ATA bashing was not the intent of the thread.


That was never implied.  Unfortunately, whenever the ATA is discussed anywhere, the business versus quality of instruction subject comes up.  As the saying goes, 'where there's smoke there's fire.'  

So far, I don't think anyone has bashed the ATA, though I do think that the ATA has some very real shortcomings that people on this thread have addressed in the course of discussion.  



Gorilla said:


> The intent was to show that a kid who came out of ATA had the heart to succeed in a very tough program like TDT.


That becomes apparent once one reads the OP.

Very sad that this young man's experience with the ATA seems, from all indications, to be the norm and not the exception.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 5, 2010)

Sometimes I wonder where all the ATA people are.  They are legion in numbers in the US but they have little representation here (Balrog and Dave L. the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head).  I guess they get tired of the bashing too.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Aug 5, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Sometimes I wonder where all the ATA people are.  They are legion in numbers in the US but they have little representation here (Balrog and Dave L. the exceptions I can think of off the top of my head).  I guess they get tired of the bashing too.


Or maybe they are more active on ATA forums?

Having perused the website, I will say that the ATA offers pretty wide array of programs and from all indications, the system is as solid as either Kukki or Chang Hon TKD, so curriculum is not the issue.  It seems to be more the delivery of the material and the high ratio of business and profitability.

Now, having said that, I am commenting on the ATA because it is an ATA themed thread.  Many Kukkiwon schools suffer the exact same shortcomings, in addition to having Kukkiwon/WTF related issues that are different from those of the ATA or the ITF. 

I think that most of the issues that are mentioned about the ATA apply equally to most commercial schools to greater or lesser degrees depending.  I think that the major difference is that the ATA as an organization is much more involved in the managing of member schools than either the ITF or the KKW/WTF, so the organization gets broad brushed.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Aug 5, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> Or maybe they are more active on ATA forums?



Never realized they had their own forums, but a Google search pops them up readily.  You have to be a member of the forums to read the topics.  I wonder if you have to be ATA to join.  Also wonder what they talk about?  The same mcdojang and child black belt complaints we make here?  



> Having perused the website, I will say that the ATA offers pretty wide array of programs and from all indications, the system is as solid as either Kukki or Chang Hon TKD, so curriculum is not the issue.  It seems to be more the delivery of the material and the high ratio of business and profitability.


Yep, I work with my niece and nephew from time to time to improve their practice.   The material is quite standard for TKD.  I don't particularly care for the Songahm forms since it's obvious that they are meant to transmit basics only, but at least they incorporate more complex kicking that any of the other older TKD hyung sets do.

The school the kids attend is very popular which means they rarely get any meaningful corrections in class, particularly since their technique is better than most of their peers.  It's a bit frustrating knowing that they are paying so much money basically just for the venue and the class - while I am the one really helping them improve.



> Now, having said that, I am commenting on the ATA because it is an ATA themed thread.  Many Kukkiwon schools suffer the exact same shortcomings, in addition to having Kukkiwon/WTF related issues that are different from those of the ATA or the ITF.
> 
> I think that most of the issues that are mentioned about the ATA apply  equally to most commercial schools to greater or lesser degrees  depending.  I think that the major difference is that the ATA as an  organization is much more involved in the managing of member schools  than either the ITF or the KKW/WTF, so the organization gets broad  brushed.


I agree.  I have the opinion that all large COMMERCIAL schools that focus on teaching children inevitably begin to shuffle around the same problems endemic with many ATA studios.


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## Gorilla (Aug 5, 2010)

Daniel Sullivan said:


> That was never implied.  Unfortunately, whenever the ATA is discussed anywhere, the business versus quality of instruction subject comes up.  As the saying goes, 'where there's smoke there's fire.'
> 
> So far, I don't think anyone has bashed the ATA, though I do think that the ATA has some very real shortcomings that people on this thread have addressed in the course of discussion.
> 
> ...



Glad to see we are on the same page.  ATA fills a need for some folks.  If they wan't more from Martial Arts they can and will move on to another more intense program.  It has been my experience that what you think that you want and the reality of what it truly is is another thing.  Many are shocked at the length and intensity of our training.  Most of our really hard work is done at the track and that requires dealing with the Las Vegas heat it is a real character test.  From a competition stand point I think Las Vegas provides the type of challenges that are good for fighters.  You have the intense heat and you can also go to Mt Charleston and train at altitude.  I think that this is why some many boxers and UFC fighters train here.


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 6, 2010)

Lol yes on the bashing part. I don't like generalizations generally about anything (and yeah I lol'd about writing that sentence ).

That being said, I don't hide that I'm an ATA guy (have been since 1985 after I left WTA). In fact I even am open about it on Bullshido (fireproof underoos ;p). But I also don't 'zomg stop that' when someone has issues with a McDojahng or lame business approaches either. 

On the forums, being ATA isn't required at all. And yes, tons of 'wtf?' (the "Whisky Tango Foxtrot?" statement not the TKD org) about kiddie black belts, age requirements for rank, people actually learning *gasp* martial arts heh.

For ATA success stories, there are some like in any organization. A few offhand, Danny Abbadi (World Combat League, MMA, some reality shows lol, silly Danny), Noah something (Last Airbender kid), I think Jacob from Twilight, a few others. Those are all acting ones, but there are quite a few that delve into like NASKA, MMA, kickboxing etc. They just often don't wear a neon sign .

Bash away though on things, I look at each school as a unique case, good or bad. I personally came up under a TKD/TSD (MDK) line and learned things about as oldschool as they come, many didn't travel that same path. It doesn't mean my path was better (ok I think it was ;p), just different.


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## dancingalone (Aug 6, 2010)

> Noah something (Last Airbender kid)


LOL.  Yes, my nephew got beat up by Noah Ringer one time at a sparring night at the Carrollton ATA studio.  

I kid him now about being Fire Nation cannon fodder for Aang.   He's a good kid and he takes it in stride.


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## terryl965 (Aug 6, 2010)

I will add this about the ATA say whatever you like and I am not a fan but like a few others have said they fill a void that the community are asking for. I wish I could bring myself to do some of those programs and I have tried but they are not for me. They know how to make alot of money and they are always in a great area for a school so thier marketing department must bea great one. I trend to bash them every once in a while but it is more about the appoach and not the material. I wish them the very best and for those wanting more they have a good foundation to start with.


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## Balrog (Feb 20, 2011)

terryl965 said:


> I will add this about the ATA say whatever you like and I am not a fan but like a few others have said they fill a void that the community are asking for. I wish I could bring myself to do some of those programs and I have tried but they are not for me. They know how to make alot of money and they are always in a great area for a school so thier marketing department must bea great one. I trend to bash them every once in a while but it is more about the appoach and not the material. I wish them the very best and for those wanting more they have a good foundation to start with.


Wandering back into a semi-dormant thread.....

ATA has issues.  No one denies that.  IMNSHO, the issues stem from the business practices; I think they interfere with our primary goal of teaching Taekwondo.  Do we water down our instruction?  Some instructors do; most instructors don't.  Do our tournaments call for non-contact?  Kinda; we allow light, controlled contact.  But most of the schools will train with a higher level of contact as part of the training.

In the long run, we have the same basic issues that everyone else does.  Take any group of instructors; you're gonna have some on the right side of the bell curve, most in the center to center-right, and then you're gonna have some bozos on the left side of the curve.  Unfortunately, it's the bozos that get the "press", so to speak, and ATA is no different from any other organization in that aspect.


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## msmitht (Feb 21, 2011)

This thread needs to be renamed. This is not about an ata school being successful. It is about some ata kids who need help and are starting over, basically, at another school and not giving up. Good for them but is success for new school and the individual, not the ata.
I hear that the ata is the most successful martial arts business in america...


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## Balrog (Feb 24, 2011)

msmitht said:


> This thread needs to be renamed. This is not about an ata school being successful. It is about some ata kids who need help and are starting over, basically, at another school and not giving up. Good for them but is success for new school and the individual, not the ata.
> I hear that the ata is the most successful martial arts business in america...


It is.  But for varying definitions of success. 

Far too many people define success as big bank accounts.  I don't.  I define success as having a student come into my school, work their butt off and learn to be a confident, self-assured, respectful person.  I sure don't fit the bank account definition of success; my school has never made a penny in profit, and my partner and I have put probably $250k into the school  over the years to keep the doors open.  We do so because we love what we do.  I would dearly love to have enough students to have the school pay its own way, but as long as I have 1 student, I'll continue to teach.

But am I rich?  You tell me.  I had a young lady who tested for her 2nd Degree in our school just before she graduated from high school and went off to college.  When she started, we practically had to pry her off mom's leg to get her out on the floor, she was so shy.  When she tested, she was a leader in every aspect of the word.  After the test, her parents came up to us and her mom started to say something and just broke down sobbing.  When she caught her breath, she hugged both of us and said, "Thank you for what you have done for our daughter."  

We touch the future.  Kids who train with us learn positive life skills that will serve them well in their lives (and they also learn to kick some hiney :lol.  I think I'm rich beyond anyone's wildest dreams.


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## andyjeffries (Feb 25, 2011)

Dave Leverich said:


> For ATA success stories, there are some like in any organization. A few offhand, Danny Abbadi (World Combat League, MMA, some reality shows lol, silly Danny), Noah something (Last Airbender kid)



How curious that Noah Ringer from Last Airbender is a Taekwondoin.  So is Dev Patel from Last Airbender (he trained/trains with Master Stuart Anslow).  Does anyone know if that was a criteria for casting for the movie? ;-)


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## Daniel Sullivan (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> How curious that Noah Ringer from Last Airbender is a Taekwondoin. So is Dev Patel from Last Airbender (he trained/trains with Master Stuart Anslow). Does anyone know if that was a criteria for casting for the movie? ;-)


I doubt that it was a criteria, but it probably didn't hurt.

Daniel


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## dancingalone (Feb 25, 2011)

andyjeffries said:


> How curious that Noah Ringer from Last Airbender is a Taekwondoin.  So is Dev Patel from Last Airbender (he trained/trains with Master Stuart Anslow).  Does anyone know if that was a criteria for casting for the movie? ;-)




If they had wanted to be truer to the cartoon, they'd be casting people who practice Chinese martial arts instead.  I believe the Earthbenders did Hung Gar and the Waterbenders Tai Chi.  Airbenders = baguazhang.  Uncertain about the Firebenders.


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## clfsean (Feb 25, 2011)

dancingalone said:


> If they had wanted to be truer to the cartoon, they'd be casting people who practice Chinese martial arts instead.  I believe the Earthbenders did Hung Gar and the Waterbenders Tai Chi.  Airbenders = baguazhang.  Uncertain about the Firebenders.



Air - Bagua Zhang
Water - Taiji Quan (Yang specifically)
Fire - Northern Shaolin (Gu Ru Zhang BSL)
Earth - Hung Ga except for Toph who used Chow Ga Southern Praying Mantis.

As to them casting CMA practitioners... they didn't even use Sifu Kisu who provided all of the modeling except for Toph who was modeled by Sifu Manny Rodriguez for the cartoon. The lack of CMA skills showed too.


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