# Best disarm from a #4 strike?



## trevorama (Sep 12, 2006)

I've seen a lot of stick disarms set up from the position of just having blocked a #3 strike (stick to stick). But what's the best (i.e. easiest, quickest, most reliable) way to disarm or subdue an opponent after blocking a #4 strike?

Bonus points if anyone can point me to a video clip of such a disarm or technique.


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## Guro Harold (Sep 12, 2006)

trevorama said:


> I've seen a lot of stick disarms set up from the position of just having blocked a #3 strike (stick to stick). But what's the best (i.e. easiest, quickest, most reliable) way to disarm or subdue an opponent after blocking a #4 strike?
> 
> Bonus points if anyone can point me to a video clip of such a disarm or technique.


Knocking da heck out of the hand, wrist, or forearm that's coming to you!


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## Hand Sword (Sep 12, 2006)




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## Andrew Green (Sep 12, 2006)

Palusut said:


> Knocking da heck out of the hand, wrist, or forearm that's coming to you!



I'll agree to that 

When things go live, fancy stuff fails.  Stick to the simplist disarms, best of which is a stick across the knuckles or wrist


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## MJS (Sep 12, 2006)

trevorama said:


> I've seen a lot of stick disarms set up from the position of just having blocked a #3 strike (stick to stick). But what's the best (i.e. easiest, quickest, most reliable) way to disarm or subdue an opponent after blocking a #4 strike?
> 
> Bonus points if anyone can point me to a video clip of such a disarm or technique.


 
A #4 or #2 disarm or as Harold suggested, just attack the incoming strike! 

Mike


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## trevorama (Sep 13, 2006)

MJS said:


> A #4 or #2 disarm or as Harold suggested, just attack the incoming strike!


 
True enough -- getting medieval on the incoming strike is the best approach, but what if that's not good enough? What if the the first strike isn't sufficient to make the opponent regret waking up that day? Surely there's a standard way to disarm or at least gain the upper hand on someone from this advantageous position.

What is a #4 or #2 disarm? Could you please explain it to me or point me to an on-line resource that can?


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## Mcura (Sep 13, 2006)

Fortunately, Prof. Presas wrote about disarms against the 2, 4, 7, and 8 strikes in his little yellow book, Modern Arnis.

Disarm Against Strike #2:
1. As your opponent attempts a high backhand strike to your head, sidestep to your left as you execute an outside block with your stick while keeping your left hand ready to scoop inside your opponent's right forearm.
2. Wind your left arm quickly in a clockwise direction (6 o'clock to 12 o'clock) until his stick is pressing against your left forearm and his right wrist is pinned under your left wrist.
3. Continuing the pressure will force him to release his stick, and will keep your opponent open for a counterstrike.

Disarm Against Strike #4:
1. As your opponent attempts a high backhand strike to your right side, sidestep to your left as you execute an outside block with your stick.
2. While keeping your left hand on his right wrist, quickly force your stick over and underneath your opponent's stick, raising his right wrist up until your stick and your left hand are both pressing against the back of his wrist.
3. Force your opponent down with strong pressure until he lets go.

Disarm Against Strike #7:
1. As your opponent attempts a backhand thrust to the body, sidestep to your left as you execute a high outside block.
2. Simultaneously, reach your left hand under his right wrist and draw it quickly back (bending it at the elbow) as you press against his stick in the opposite direction with your stick.
3. His hold will be broken.  Use your whole body, from your feet through your hips and chest, and into your arm, to power the disarm.

Disarm against Strike #8:
1. As your opponent attempts a low backhand strike to your right side, sidestep to your left and execute a low outside block.
2. Pressing down with your stick, step in and force your right wrist inside his right arm (with the butt end of the stick) and wind your arm upward in a clockwise circle (6 o'clock to 12 o'clock), trapping his right wrist and stick against your stick and right hand.
3. Use your left hand to hold his stick against your own.
4. Pivot quickly to your right to bend his right wrist backward, forcing him to let go.  Use your whole body, not just your arm strength.

I've observed that the backhand blows to your right side, head, and knee aren't as strong as the forehand blows.  This works to your advantage, as you'll be meeting a comparatively weak blow with your stronger block. All the disarms start with stepping to the left, and executing an outside block. With the exception of the Disarm Against #7, all the motions with the Live (left) Hand are in a clockwise motion.  Be sure not to rush the disarm.  Make sure you're safe first with the block and sidestep to the left.  And watch out for the flying sticks.


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## MJS (Sep 13, 2006)

trevorama said:


> True enough -- getting medieval on the incoming strike is the best approach, but what if that's not good enough? What if the the first strike isn't sufficient to make the opponent regret waking up that day? Surely there's a standard way to disarm or at least gain the upper hand on someone from this advantageous position.


 
Yes, thats true, we shouldn't assume that our hit is going to stop the person.  This is why its important to follow up with strikes, use our live hand to assist us, and use our footwork.  From that initial strike, we can use our other methods of striking, such as abanico, figure 8 movements, etc.  Keep in mind, that we may not get the disarm immediately, due to the quickness and power of the strike, so we may have to use our other tools. 



> What is a #4 or #2 disarm? Could you please explain it to me or point me to an on-line resource that can?


 
I was all set to type out a reply, but thanks to Mcura, it looks like he did a fine job with that!!:ultracool 

Mike


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## Guro Harold (Sep 13, 2006)

trevorama said:


> True enough -- getting medieval on the incoming strike is the best approach, but what if that's not good enough? What if the the first strike isn't sufficient to make the opponent regret waking up that day? Surely there's a standard way to disarm or at least gain the upper hand on someone from this advantageous position.
> 
> What is a #4 or #2 disarm? Could you please explain it to me or point me to an on-line resource that can?



From a curriculum perspective, the disarms that MCura has graciously provided should be considered as the starting point for understanding the mechanics of disarms. However, please note that most Modern Arnis disarms can be executed at any translated angle. 

Also, Modern Arnis disarms themselves are executed mainly in the medio range, therefore they draw the opponent into your space. As a result the opponent could counter the disarm or bliindside you. Therefore, the concepts of strategy and occupying all the weapons of the opponent has to be considered.

With this in mind, one of the strategies that can be used that I was referring to is called actually, "Defanging the Snake". It's the most realistic and practical disarm and the more plausible one to execute without getting your head knocked off.

Also, even if the opponent does not drop the weapon, the technique can be used to diminish the capabilities of the opponent and setup the next technique.

So, using figure eight concept as example, you could strike the hand of the incoming #1 strike, cover the distance, parry with a #2/#4 block, then immediately execute the #4 snake disarm.

But again, that is based on many factors that are constant flux. There is a statement that I have heard before that best describes disarms... "Disarms are accidental or incidental at best."

This is another great discussion!!!


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## Guro Harold (Sep 13, 2006)

MJS said:


> I was all set to type out a reply, but thanks to Mcura, it looks like he did a fine job with that!!:ultracool
> 
> Mike


Agreed!


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## trevorama (Sep 13, 2006)

Wow! Thanks to everyone for the quick and great responses. I especially appreciate Mcura's initial thorough response. It was exactly what I was looking for. Palusut and MJS, thank you for the refinements.

Modern Arnis rules!


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## HKphooey (Sep 13, 2006)

IMO...Until one is skilled in arnis, the standard #4 disarm tends to leave the opponent's other arm free for attack (because of the disarming we are actually putting him/her in a better position).  I like to step to the outside while parying the attacker'a arm with my left hand(staying to the outside, away from risk from the other arm). Check with the right, controlling the arm and stick. Then left backfist to the face (and a left inner arch kick to the skin if needed).


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## Guro Harold (Sep 13, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> IMO...Until one is skilled in arnis, the standard #4 disarm tends to leave the opponent's other arm free for attack (because of the disarming we are actually putting him/her in a better position). I like to step to the outside while parying the attacker'a arm with my left hand(staying to the outside, away from risk from the other arm). Check with the right, controlling the arm and stick. Then left backfist to the face (and a left inner arch kick to the skin if needed).


True!!!

Also, this is another disarm that ties up both hands while executing it. That is dangerous within itself.

A cool thing about the #4 disarms are the followups which are on the blackbelt series from what I remember. Also, you can use it to play pool if you have to with the opponent's head being the cue ball.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 13, 2006)

Palusut said:


> Knocking da heck out of the hand, wrist, or forearm that's coming to you!


 
That is the number one disarm in my book!


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## modarnis (Sep 14, 2006)

HKphooey said:


> IMO...Until one is skilled in arnis, the standard #4 disarm tends to leave the opponent's other arm free for attack (because of the disarming we are actually putting him/her in a better position). I like to step to the outside while parying the attacker'a arm with my left hand(staying to the outside, away from risk from the other arm). Check with the right, controlling the arm and stick. Then left backfist to the face (and a left inner arch kick to the skin if needed).


 

I agree that the #4 is a tricky approach for a beginner.  Myself, the disarms are gravy, only after the meat and potatoes of moving my feet, not getting hit, controlling position, counterstriking/neutralizing the opponent.  Then, disarming is great.  It does need to enter the equation in the proper place.  

Harold hits the mnail on the head that impact disarm is preferred.  The initial block should also serve as an attack to the attacking weapon

THe approach from the basic #2 disarm facilitates much of that against that side of the body.  It also teaches the 'roll to the bicep' pass/controil that Professor was fond of.

Sorry for the random, late in the discussion thoughts.  Its been a long week at work


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## trevorama (Sep 17, 2006)

modarnis said:


> THe approach from the basic #2 disarm facilitates much of that against that side of the body. It also teaches the 'roll to the bicep' pass/controil that Professor was fond of.
> 
> Sorry for the random, late in the discussion thoughts. Its been a long week at work


 
Hey better late than never. Thanks for your two bits. It reinforces the best approach to disarms in general. Question for you: The "roll to bicep" pass/control that you spoke of - Is this an overhook on the opponent's arm with the stick arm, or is this a pass/underhook with the live hand, or something else entirely?


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## modarnis (Sep 17, 2006)

Just like the number 2 basic disarm, it is a pass with the live hand.  It has value in stick, knife, and even espada y daga practice


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## trevorama (Sep 17, 2006)

That's what I thought. Thank you.


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## Inverse Falcon (Sep 29, 2006)

Mcura said:


> Fortunately, Prof. Presas wrote about disarms against the 2, 4, 7, and 8 strikes in his little yellow book, Modern Arnis.
> 
> Disarm Against Strike #2:
> 1. As your opponent attempts a high backhand strike to your head, sidestep to your left as you execute an outside block with your stick while keeping your left hand ready to scoop inside your opponent's right forearm.
> ...


 

These are very similar to how I was taught.  I'm not sure if these are new for some, or if I'm just suggesting techniques most people know, as these were taught to me as basic disarms:

Strike #2 disarm:

#1 and 2:  Similar to Mcura up to step 2, but instead of pinning his wrist, you pin his elbow and press down with your palm and leverage your body weight.  Rather than having his stick pressing down on your forearm, try to get the bottom part of your forearm underneath his wrist so your forearms are intertwined, with his arm twisted so his elbow is facing up and pinned by your palm and his grip is facing up, stick pointing horizontally away from you.  This position should be an armlock, so leverage your weight appropriately.  
3.  Come down on his tricep with the butt of your stick.  (if unarmed, use your right elbow instead)
4.  Still maintaining the arm lock, reach over and grab the end of his stick, pulling it free from his weak grasp.

Strike #4 disarm:

1-3  Same as the above disarm.
4.  Bring the stick horizontal and grip the end with your other hand, keeping him in the arm lock with your stick locking on his elbow.  (if unarmed, use your right forearm, gripping your right wrist with your left hand and bearing down to get the right leverage.  I actually find this easier to do than with the stick)
5a.  (Optional)  Leverage your weight to break his arm at his elbow.
5b.  Pull back sharply along his arm.  If you're in the right position, your arm and stick (or both arms, if without the stick) should strip his stick from his hand.

These are both a little slower than your #2, but I do love that arm lock and break.

I also know your version of the #4 disarm, it's one of my favorites.


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## trevorama (Oct 2, 2006)

Great additions Inverse Falcon! I was familiar with your #4 variation, but your #2 variation was new to me and I look forward to trying it out. Thanks very much for posting those.


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## Inverse Falcon (Oct 4, 2006)

trevorama said:


> Great additions Inverse Falcon! I was familiar with your #4 variation, but your #2 variation was new to me and I look forward to trying it out. Thanks very much for posting those.



No problem.  Don't let them bend their elbow, however, that seems to be the weakness of these armlock techniques.


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## modarnis (Oct 8, 2006)

Inverse Falcon said:


> No problem. Don't let them bend their elbow, however, that seems to be the weakness of these armlock techniques.


 

When doing those wrap up arm techniques, you need to use your footwork and body shifting at the same time.  This keeps them extended and off balance, leaving their arms straight.  

There is a high degree of blending and flow with their energy that you develop with practice that makes those arm techniques so versatile


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## Tony Torre (Oct 9, 2006)

My favorite situation with angle 4 is a set up I use with good frequency.  I bait my opponent by exposing my head while being just outside his reach.  He'l usually swing a angle 1 which will miss as I slightly shuffle back.  If he's decent he'll usually follow up with a angle 2.  Here's where my strategy applies. I shuffle back slightly to provoke his angle 2 inorder to smother it by charging in with a reinforced block.  The angle is actually a 4 since I didn't let it evolve into the intended angle 2. 

What if this tactic doesn't work?  Usually if the opponent is aggressive it works well.  If he is hesitant he may back out of it after the angle 1.

Once you are in, you could use the angle 4 disarm commonly taught in Modern Arnis. This snaking motion lends itself very well to energy of the entry.  Striking the hand on the angle 4  frequently leads to both parties hands getting hit. 

My 2 cents, Thanks,
Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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## trevorama (Oct 10, 2006)

Tony Torre said:


> I shuffle back slightly to provoke his angle 2 inorder to smother it by charging in with a reinforced block. The angle is actually a 4 since I didn't let it evolve into the intended angle 2.


 
Hey Tony, good suggestion. I've had success with this strategem myself in practice. Question though -- when you smother the attack with a reinforced block, do you attack the hand, center mass of the arm, or the stick?



Tony Torre said:


> Striking the hand on the angle 4 frequently leads to both parties hands getting hit.


 
Okay, one more question. Why do you find that this happens? Wouldn't your hand be out of the way? (All right -- technically two more questions.)


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## Tony Torre (Oct 10, 2006)

T.

When moving in after his angle 1 I look to pin his arm against his body.  Whether I actually do or not doesn't matter as long as I get in before he develops his follow up.  

We generally use the angle 4 to attack waist level targets.  Most often the hand.  If I'm doing it to someone it is usually against his "stationary" hand.  This is very effective.  However if I'm trying to counter this at the last minute its usually sometype of witik like strike on the same line.  I would much prefer to evade and attack from a different angle.

Hope this helps,
Tony Torre
Miami Arnis Group
www.miamiarnisgroup.com


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## trevorama (Oct 10, 2006)

Okay I see what you're saying. Yah, you definitely don't want to counter a #4 with a #4 strike.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

trevorama said:


> Okay I see what you're saying. Yah, you definitely don't want to counter a #4 with a #4 strike.


Yeah you can.

#4 is the angle not necessarily the target. You can counter to the knuckles, hand, or wrist.


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## trevorama (Oct 10, 2006)

Palusut said:


> Yeah you can.
> 
> #4 is the angle not necessarily the target. You can counter to the knuckles, hand, or wrist.


 
You can, but it's a much riskier proposition is it not? Like Tony says, you're much more likely to trade hand shots. And like Christmas, it's better to give than to receive in this situation.


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## Guro Harold (Oct 10, 2006)

trevorama said:


> You can, but it's a much riskier proposition is it not? Like Tony says, you're much more likely to trade hand shots. And like Christmas, it's better to give than to receive in this situation.


 
Same angle attack and counters probably comprise a vast majority of stick to stick encounters.

There are always exceptions, ie, using "Up and Down" counters, Redondas, figure-eight counters, witiks, and such.

The key is using what works best for you for a particular encounter.


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