# WC - how to fight a boxer



## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

Is Izzo considered Wing Chun?  I think he is right here.  But you have to be fast and prepared to get hit. Why don’t more WC guys fight this way?  It’s similar to what Adam Chan had said too.


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## Danny T (Oct 13, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Is Izzo considered Wing Chun?  I think he is right here.  But you have to be fast and prepared to get hit. Why don’t more WC guys fight this way?  It’s similar to what Adam Chan had said too.


I would not do several things that was shown here but the idea is good.
A good boxer when pressured as done here would attempt to clinch and tie up the arms. Competitive amateur boxers don't clinch due to rules and points can/will be taken for clinching. Good boxers are very good at tie ups. 

Some wc people train and spar other arts and fighters, I think many wc practitioners only train vs other wc people and many don't train or spar full contact. Those that don't usually are lacking in skill vs other type arts.


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## Martial D (Oct 13, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Is Izzo considered Wing Chun?  I think he is right here.  But you have to be fast and prepared to get hit. Why don’t more WC guys fight this way?  It’s similar to what Adam Chan had said too.


The guy claims he knows how to box and proceeds to stand right in front of the guy like a statue and not box at all. Clickbait!


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2017)

No. Izzos guys were gun shy. He would have go his face smashed in during those exchanges If they actually hit at range.

Sorry.


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

I still like Adam Chan's way best but he is also ridiculously fast lol


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2017)

I think those punches that Izzo actually ate were ones that he rushed his face at so fast that they couldn't pull back in time.

Which of course wouldn't be cool at speed.

There is a mugging style of fighting that one of my coaches does really well. And he is short so he also has to enter and close distance. If I can get some footage or something there are probably some ideas that would be really useful for chunners against anybody.


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## Martial D (Oct 13, 2017)

I maintain that there is gold in Wing Chun concepts and movements. I use it in live sparring all the time and it's saved my *** more than a few times.

I also hold, ironically perhaps, that it is overt loyalty to the style that prevents it being used by quote unquote, "Wing Chun guys"


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

Why don't you just kick a boxer if you are a WC guy? When your opponent's fist comes toward your face, your kick go toward his chest.


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Why don't you just kick a boxer if you are a WC guy? When your opponent's fist comes toward your face, your kick go toward his chest.



Because it ultimately takes too long.

So you may nail him as the culmination of 5 exchanges. But once he closes he can knock you out in the first one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Because it ultimately takes too long.
> 
> So you may nail him as the culmination of 5 exchanges. But once he closes he can knock you out in the first one.


- When your opponent punches at your face, if you just raise up your leg on time, your opponent will run into your kick.
- If you have good low roundhouse kick, you can hurt your opponent's leg so bad that he can't even stand straight.
- If you have good foot sweep, you can sweep him down when he advances.
- If you have good knee stomp kick, you can prevent your opponent's weight from shifting onto his leading leg.

There is nothing wrong to spend 100% of your effort in kicking when you deal with a boxer.


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## MA_Student (Oct 14, 2017)

What type of boxer? There's more than one style of boxer....I wouldn't fight floyld mayweather the same way I'd fight mike tyson


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## TMA17 (Oct 14, 2017)

One of the few videos where a Kung Fu spar doesn't look that bad.  Just messing around and the WC guy is not closing the gap.


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## marques (Oct 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Because it ultimately takes too long.


Well, kicking a boxer is still my first strategy.

"Takes too long." I can kick low (so quite quick), before the punch distance (a bit more time) and even "kicking" out of range may freeze (at least some recreational) boxers. If they put pressure forward it is more difficult. One needs to start in advance kicking the front leg, which is usually close and readily available. It destroys boxer's footwork, power and confidence.

Good or not, is the best I have. The second best are knees from the clinch.  I'm not going to box against a(ny) boxer if it is to be competitive...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> Because it ultimately takes too long.


One time I sparred with a boxer. I used only one strategy - knee stomping. The moment that my opponent shifted weight onto his leading leg, the moment that I "stomped" on his knee with all my body weight on it. Since he could not transfer weight onto his leading leg, his punch could not reach me. He was very frustrated, we stopped the sparring, and he refused to spar with me any more. In the whole 5 minutes sparring, I did not throw even one punch.

When you keep shooting bullets at your opponent's feet to make him to jump up, he will lose desire to fight you pretty soon.

Here is an example of "knee stomp".


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

marques said:


> Well, kicking a boxer is still my first strategy.
> 
> "Takes too long." I can kick low (so quite quick), before the punch distance (a bit more time) and even "kicking" out of range may freeze (at least some recreational) boxers. If they put pressure forward it is more difficult. One needs to start in advance kicking the front leg, which is usually close and readily available. It destroys boxer's footwork, power and confidence.
> 
> Good or not, is the best I have. The second best are knees from the clinch.  I'm not going to box against a(ny) boxer if it is to be competitive...



You know why people have an issue with anti grappling?

Same issue.


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## TMA17 (Oct 14, 2017)

I can definitely see kicking as being a great way to keep a boxer at bay.  I also think WC's kick is effective w/o being too flashy and setting you up for disaster.  Being boxers only use their upper bodies, kicking is something they lack.  I'm surprised Izzo and others never talk about that.  It's as if the WC  kick doesn't even exist.  Why is that??  I never see Mark Philips, Orr or any other WC guy talk about it.  Even Adam Chan. ??  I'll call these guys the progressive WC group. 

I sparred with one of the head WC guys at my school doing distance training with kicks.  My kicks are awful.  I never practiced a martial art and have only boxed in the past.  I played soccer for years and that's the only kicking I was ever exposed to LOL.  He was really good and if I was better at it, I'd definitely consider that as a viable option against a good boxer.  My flexibility is horrendous.  It could also throw him off enough for you to close that gap and use the other WC attributes more effectively.   Just a thought.

That knee stomp kick Kung Fu Wang posted would seem highly effective IMO.  If you're good at it.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> I can definitely see kicking as being a great way to keep a boxer at bay.  I also think WC's kick is effective w/o being too flashy and setting you up for disaster.  Being boxers only use their upper bodies, kicking is something they lack.  I'm surprised Izzo and others never talk about that.  It's as if the WC  kick doesn't even exist.  Why is that??  I never see Mark Philips, Orr or any other WC guy talk about it.  Even Adam Chan. ??  I'll call these guys the progressive WC group.
> 
> I sparred with one of the head WC guys at my school doing distance training with kicks.  My kicks are awful.  I never practiced a martial art and have only boxed in the past.  I played soccer for years and that's the only kicking I was ever exposed to LOL.  He was really good and if I was better at it, I'd definitely consider that as a viable option against a good boxer.  My flexibility is horrendous.  It could also throw him off enough for you to close that gap and use the other WC attributes more effectively.   Just a thought.
> 
> That knee stomp kick Kung Fu Wang posted would seem highly effective IMO.  If you're good at it.



You can bend your front knee and wear that kick for at least a bit.
This is John Jones who does this better than anyone.






Nobody drops. He still has to be able to handle a punching xchange at some point.

Punching and head stiking in general can finish fights right there.






So you cant just ignore that aspect hoping you are going to keep people at bay. You just dont get the effect you are looking for.


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## TMA17 (Oct 14, 2017)

LOL good point.

Maybe this is why Muay Thai is such a great, effective art.  It combines boxing with great kicking LOL!!

In a street fight though, I think that WC kick is more than sufficient.  In UFC, no.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> LOL good point.
> 
> Maybe this is why Muay Thai is such a great, effective art.  It combines boxing with great kicking LOL!!
> 
> In a street fight though, I think that WC kick is more than sufficient.  In UFC, no.



No. 

To effectively use the knee kick you really should be able to handle the hands exchange.

I have never really seen that kick pulled off in a street fight. Jump on youtube. There are more successful flying icks in street fights than knee kicks.

Ufc is the only olace you even see those kicks. Which is why I used tyat example.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2017)

If you can make your opponent to feel uncomfortable, you will make yourself to feel comfortable.

Can you use knee kick to break your opponent's leg? It may be difficult. Can you use it to make your boxer opponent to feel uncomfortable? Definitely you can. A right leg "knee stomp" followed by a left leg 'foot sweep" is a very good combo.

If you can lead your opponent into an area that you are more familiar with than he does, that will be your advantage.

Arm drag and circle running can also be effective on a boxer.


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## marques (Oct 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> To effectively use the knee kick you really should be able to handle the hands exchange.


Probably right. Knee stomp doesn't KO fighters. But while a boxer is dealing with it I have my chance to punch. When he starts boxing again I may grapple. I can punch and need to punch, but I will always avoid the opponent's 'comfort zone'. That is my point.

Additionally, knee stomp doesn't KO fighters because both are usually well trained and it is not meant to break the knee. A straight knee stump in a stand-up guy (self-defence scenario)... I guess it has a different effect.


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

marques said:


> Probably right. Knee stomp doesn't KO fighters. But while a boxer is dealing with it I have my chance to punch. When he starts boxing again I may grapple. I can punch and need to punch, but I will always avoid the opponent's 'comfort zone'. That is my point.
> 
> Additionally, knee stomp doesn't KO fighters because both are usually well trained and it is not meant to break the knee. A straight knee stump in a stand-up guy (self-defence scenario)... I guess it has a different effect.



OK. I am not saying don't kick. You just have to be able to deal with his hands as a priority.

Just like takedowns I can strike grapplers all I want so long as I can stuff the takedown attempt.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2017)

drop bear said:


> OK. I am not saying don't kick. You just have to be able to deal with his hands as a priority.


In long fist the way that you train "chain kicks - knee stomp" is to look at your opponent's eyes, the moment that he looks down, the moment that you punch his face.

Kick low and punch high is the main strategy used in the long fist system. The low kick is mainly used for "set up".


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## DanT (Oct 14, 2017)

You fight a boxer better than he fights you and you win. You need to be smart and ruthless.

Some basic Wing Chun techniques:

Straight Punches
Chop / Backfist
Lap Da
Tan Da 
Pak Da
Gan Da
Front Kick
Side Kick
Roundhouse Kick
Stomp Kick
Elbows
Knees

So you hit your opponent with these and ideally maim / knockout them so they cannot fight any more.

That's how you beat whoever.


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## TMA17 (Oct 15, 2017)




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## marques (Oct 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> You just have to be able to deal with his hands as a priority.


My first priority will avoid any punch, keeping kicking distance. Eventually, it fails...

Then, and only then, my priority is dealing with is punches, but just in transition to clinch (or ground maybe) or kicking distance again (or kicking/knee-ing/elbowing/punching from clinch/very close distance).

Ok, I need to deal with his hands, but not as a boxer, neither from punching range.


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> No. To effectively use the knee kick you really should be able to handle the hands exchange. *I have never really seen that kick pulled off in a street fight...*



Why do you suppose that is?

...My guess is that it has to do with the way people tend to rush right in on the street. Or that not too many people train that lead-leg knee kick. ... Because it is a really quick and distracting technique, especially when you have hard soled shoes on.

The way I use that knee-kick off the lead leg is more like a boxer's jab. You hang back just out of punching range, ducking and covering while firing rapid lead leg knee shots until your opponent drops his guard, and then make your move. But essentially, that's a dueling game. Like UFC. Not what you'd use against a brawler moving in like a steamroller.


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## drop bear (Oct 15, 2017)

geezer said:


> Why do you suppose that is?
> 
> ...My guess is that it has to do with the way people tend to rush right in on the street. Or that not too many people train that lead-leg knee kick. ... Because it is a really quick and distracting technique, especially when you have hard soled shoes on.
> 
> The way I use that knee-kick off the lead leg is more like a boxer's jab. You hang back just out of punching range, ducking and covering while firing rapid lead leg knee shots until your opponent drops his guard, and then make your move. But essentially, that's a dueling game. Like UFC. Not what you'd use against a brawler moving in like a steamroller.



There is probably always something better you could have thrown. A teep has more range. A round kick is more likley to bust a knee.


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2017)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Kick low and punch high is the main strategy used in the long fist system. The low kick is mainly used for "set up".



Exactly the same in WC, especially when fighting a longer range fighter. Because even if a boxer has longer reach, your leg is probably longer than his arm.


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## geezer (Oct 15, 2017)

drop bear said:


> There is probably always something better you could have thrown. A teep has more range. A round kick is more likley to bust a knee.



Not trying for more range, or going all out to break a leg. Just jabbing at that knee every time he sets his weight on it to punch. ...a distraction to make an opening. Or like John Wang said, "a set up". 

When you move in, like you said, you still have to be able to handle his hands. Otherwise, you better run away!!!


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## TMA17 (Oct 16, 2017)

Guy I know said this and made sense to me.  It’s also inline with what others like Adam Chan have said.

“Wing Chun is just like boxing in that you can't just stand there in front of the opponent - although frankly most street confrontations kick off at Wing Chun range - if you are squaring up against people, that's a social problem (you should be talking your way out - walking away)  - assaults kick off close range - I've trained with a former professional boxer and Wing Chun works - you just have to understand it.  Attack immediately, aggressively, and have the skills, and you will do fine.  Boxers like to play for range so you need to stuff their range (Seg Wai - I eat your position).  Don't be afraid to step to them (you need to go in the house to fight the fire). Also, you are not fighting pro boxers out there - most street fights will be against people who are not trained.”


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## TMA17 (Oct 17, 2017)

““WC is a "second action system" - that is, I let them start but cut the angle and beat them to the punch - literally.  This is why you need it to be reflexive - and the footwork is utlra-aggressive - I step into the opponent's sing or even jab (don't be afraid to be hit) - our style is very disruptive to most other styles, which anticipate and are built around the "victim" backing away and trying to get outside the range.  We walk right past their range into our half-arm range, which is too close for them (outside elbow range, inside jab range) - too close for thinking, so you need to develop reflexes to do your fighting for you.  Very aggressive reflexes which find (bridge) then strip away or angle off the opponents guard (triangle) -- once we find our hole, we step in (take position) and strike the head.  Rinse and repeat with a very fluid response based on the opponent's ability to recover/respond/.”


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## wckf92 (Oct 17, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> ““WC is a "second action system" - that is, I let them start but cut the angle and beat them to the punch - literally.  This is why you need it to be reflexive - and the footwork is utlra-aggressive - I step into the opponent's sing or even jab (don't be afraid to be hit) - our style is very disruptive to most other styles, which anticipate and are built around the "victim" backing away and trying to get outside the range.  We walk right past their range into our half-arm range, which is too close for them (outside elbow range, inside jab range) - too close for thinking, so you need to develop reflexes to do your fighting for you.  Very aggressive reflexes which find (bridge) then strip away or angle off the opponents guard (triangle) -- once we find our hole, we step in (take position) and strike the head.  Rinse and repeat with a very fluid response based on the opponent's ability to recover/respond/.”



who are you quoting!?!?!?


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## Martial D (Oct 17, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> ““WC is a "second action system" - that is, I let them start but cut the angle and beat them to the punch - literally.  This is why you need it to be reflexive - and the footwork is utlra-aggressive - I step into the opponent's sing or even jab (don't be afraid to be hit) - our style is very disruptive to most other styles, which anticipate and are built around the "victim" backing away and trying to get outside the range.  We walk right past their range into our half-arm range, which is too close for them (outside elbow range, inside jab range) - too close for thinking, so you need to develop reflexes to do your fighting for you.  Very aggressive reflexes which find (bridge) then strip away or angle off the opponents guard (triangle) -- once we find our hole, we step in (take position) and strike the head.  Rinse and repeat with a very fluid response based on the opponent's ability to recover/respond/.”


The problem is usually with the first bit. It's unlikely that you will react fast enough before getting hit, especially if you are holding a WC center guard.

It's best to always be first in my experience.


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## TMA17 (Oct 17, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> who are you quoting!?!?!?



Someone I was talking to that has been a WC practitioner for 40 years.


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## wckf92 (Oct 17, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Someone I was talking to that has been a WC practitioner for 40 years.



Ok thx. I saw your quotations and was wondering who...


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## TMA17 (Oct 17, 2017)

I was doing a some research and it’s interesting how once the Chinese came in contact with westerners, they were impressed with western boxing.  Many sailors defeated the Kung Fu masters of that time.  It was hard for many Chinese to admit that their martial arts did not stand up against western boxing. The article below isn’t the greatest but a simple google search on Chinese and Western boxing will pull up many articles on the history and influence of Western Boxing and Traditional MA.

Zha Ka's Guide to the Good Life | FIGHTLAND

“Out of all the fighting systems he encountered, though, the one that called to him most was Western boxing. Zha Ka began training in Beijing and Guangdong, China. The combination of a boxing and shuai jiao background opened his eyes to what a well-rounded fighter could be. As a professional bodyguard, shuai jiao was important, but a striking art like boxing was essential. Now, with over 20 years of boxing experience, he openly professes his belief that Western boxing is the best martial art he's ever learned, and he has a few reasons why. Western boxing provides a strong base from which to launch your attack, he says. No kicks means easier balance. Throwing your fists is a natural instinct in fighting. A boxer will have the fastest hands compared to any other discipline, so if your natural reaction in a fight is to use your hands, it makes sense to train them the most.”


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## TMA17 (Oct 19, 2017)

This is good.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Guy I know said this and made sense to me.  It’s also inline with what others like Adam Chan have said.
> 
> “Wing Chun is just like boxing in that you can't just stand there in front of the opponent - although frankly most street confrontations kick off at Wing Chun range - if you are squaring up against people, that's a social problem (you should be talking your way out - walking away)  - assaults kick off close range - I've trained with a former professional boxer and Wing Chun works - you just have to understand it.  Attack immediately, aggressively, and have the skills, and you will do fine.  Boxers like to play for range so you need to stuff their range (Seg Wai - I eat your position).  Don't be afraid to step to them (you need to go in the house to fight the fire). Also, you are not fighting pro boxers out there - most street fights will be against people who are not trained.”



If the street fight starts at wing chun range that s quite often your own fault.

The issue is at that range you cant stop a punch with any reliability. Doesnt really matter what you train.


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## drop bear (Oct 19, 2017)

You are trying to fight movement with counter punching. So you attack with one hand and defend with one hand.

A good boxer is attacking with two hands and defending with footwork and head movement.

Law of averages are against you.

If you counter punch you have to be able to see the shot and address it. If you move defensively you don't. You can punch off line without any knowledge of what they are going to fire and some strikes will miss. Now you are not addressing every punch coming your way and have more capacity to adress the ones you want to adress.

The cover movement also performs this job. It is positioned where the punch will probably come so again you are not addressing every punch.

At speed you can't really see punches coming so using these tactics work better and better as the contact heats up.


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