# Study shows benefits of heel-down



## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage

“*Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”*


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## Marnetmar (Oct 13, 2017)

I was expecting an Onion article.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 13, 2017)

I glanced pretty quickly, so these may be answered and I missed it, but I would be interested in
A: does this hold true in people who are actively trained? How I read the article, there were volunteers, who may not have had training yet, so might not have the best power output to begin with.
B: How does it effect other parts of fighting? Power output is one thing, but you also have to focus on agility and balance/stability. How does having heel up/down impact those?

Those could be interesting studies going forward...


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

Those are great questions.  My initial thoughts were do you give up agility/mobility?  As I’m learning WC, which uses a rooted stance, I find myself much slower and less agile as one would expect.  Trade offs I guess.  The importance of good footwork in WC can’t be stressed enough in my limited experience.


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

I’m struggling with the rooted WC stance approach.  Coming from a boxing background, and what I always felt was most comfortable to me, I have always preferred to keep my distance from an opponent.

My natural tendency is to always back up against a threat.  I have not gotten into any real world fights (just one when I was very young) but when sparring always move back.

I would always rely on speed, using jab and keep my opponent away from me. With that approach I always had to be light on my feet. 

I don’t think one way is better than the other but it’s challenging to me and hard to get used to.


From Mark Philips:

As in any fight, you still need to abide by the universal basics of Distance Control, Footwork, and Timing. These attributes have nothing to do with actual Wing Chun techniques, but just fighting


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## wingchun100 (Oct 13, 2017)

My personal opinion on the rooted stance:

It is not something you would want to sink into if you are not in Wing Chun range. At a distance, you want to have the mobile footwork of (yes, I am going to say it) a Western boxer, Muay Thai practitioner, or maybe even a fencer.


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

I don't see why having your heel down when punching would effect your movement or speed.

Even while on your toes and balls of your feet moving when you punch you set your feet and your heel comes down to help generate power.


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

True.  My one friend says he can access the rooted stance when needed, wherever.  Not all western boxers are mobile either now that I think about it.  Many stand or move slow.  Ali was a guy that bounced around a lot.


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> True.  My one friend says he can access the rooted stance when needed, wherever.  Not all western boxers are mobile either now that I think about it.  Many stand or move slow.  Ali was a guy that bounced around a lot.



Even though Ali moved a lot he still set his feet when he punched.

That's what made guys like Ali, Roy Jones Jr, Sugar Ray, etc.... so beastly was there ability to move on their toes, set their feet, punch, and move away on there toes.  That's where you create that combination of speed and power.


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage
> 
> “*Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”*



Be careful not to read too much into this.   When they are talking about the evolution of the human foot and the differences between being on the heels vs. being on the toes, visualize the  difference between an ape leaning forward and walking with his front knuckles on the ground and on the balls of his feet to one that has stood upright with his weight back on his heels.  Obviously the ape standing upright is going to being to strike harder and push more strongly against something simply because he is upright and can put all of his weight behind the movement compared to the ape that is on "all fours."   An ape can stand more upright in a more stable position than a monkey.  Hence the idea about the evolution of the foot.  However....this most certainly does not translate to saying that standing flat-footed when punching is better than punching with the rear heal raised!   If they really wanted to make a better conclusion in that regard, they should have put a force sensor on a heavy bag and have people punch it while keeping their rear heel on the ground compared to punching it while allowing the rear heal to raise and rotate.  Which do you think would generate more force and impact?


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2017)

What KPM said. I certainly wouldn't draw sweeping conclusions from one very limited study. I do Wing Chun too, but if I want to really hit my hardest, especially from range, I'm inclined to fall back on my training in Latosa Escrima and use what is essentially a "Dempsey drop-step" with my rear heel raised.

And going from such a questionable study to sweeping assertions about striking power and the evolution of the human foot seems even more dubious. Upright stance and tool use? ...or efficiency in long range locomotion while foraging for food? Those ideas seem way more relevant to me. But, I digress...


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## TMA17 (Oct 13, 2017)

When I watch WC practitioners (usually bad WC YouTube videos) it’s clear that many don’t work on footwork enough.  As others have said,  I don’t see why  can’t  do WC and still be mobile and grounded.  Alternating depending on distance.


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

KPM said:


> Which do you think would generate more force and impact?



Heel down.  It allows you to put your full weight behind the punch.

Heel up creates a cushion that takes away from you fully transferring all your energy into your target.


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Heel down.  It allows you to put your full weight behind the punch.
> 
> Heel up creates a cushion that takes away from you fully transferring all your energy into your target.



You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint.  Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag?  You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

KPM said:


> You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint.  Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag?  You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???



Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.

Creates a stronger punching base.  If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.


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## KPM (Oct 13, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.
> 
> Creates a stronger punching base.  If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.



I'm sorry, but I have never seen a single boxer that would throw a hard cross into a heavy bag while keeping his rear heel down on the floor.  Or a strong Jab for that matter.  If you can find an example of a boxer doing that, I'd love to see it!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> “*Study finds that heel-down posture in great apes and humans confers a fighting advantage”*


- Be careful about your opponent's "foot sweep" when you have your "front foot heel down".
- When your fist can't reach at your opponent's face, if you slide your back foot forward, your fist may be able to reach at your opponent's face. There is a reason that "monkey stance" exist in CMA.


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2017)

Here are some typical coaching clips on how to throw a boxer's right cross (right straight). Notice how the heel comes up every time. It's _not_ lunging or over-extending. It's just using leg power and hip rotation to maximize power.














Now I'm not a boxer, so if there is an accepted alternative method in boxing that keeps both feet flat, I'd like to know. I'd be so surprised, I'd be caught flat-footed!


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## CB Jones (Oct 13, 2017)

KPM said:


> I'm sorry, but I have never seen a single boxer that would throw a hard cross into a heavy bag while keeping his rear heel down on the floor.  Or a strong Jab for that matter.  If you can find an example of a boxer doing that, I'd love to see it!



You're right.  On the bag, with the right hand my right heel starts off down but as hips rotate the heel raises as it pivots.  My left heel stays down though.

Now with the left hook and jab, the right heel stays down but my left heel comes up.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 13, 2017)

In the following clip, you can see the heel is up on each and every strike.






Example of "heel up".


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## geezer (Oct 13, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> You're right.  On the bag, with the right hand my right heel starts off down but as hips rotate the heel raises as it pivots.  My left heel stays down though.
> 
> Now with the left hook and jab, the right heel stays down but my left heel comes up.



Ahh. This makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2017)

i won’t comment on boxing or wing chun or any other methods.

With our method, definitely heel down gives more stability and power.  That is how you push on the ground.

But our method derives primary power from torso rotation and not so much from driving the body forward.  So methods and reasons may vary.


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## drop bear (Oct 13, 2017)

OK. So I asked the boffins about this one.

"Using pushing force isn't the best measurement, many species have a survival advantage over their harder pushing competition due to superior agility

A lot of animals that seemingly have backward hinged knees like cats and kangaroos actually just have high ankles"


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## Martial D (Oct 14, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> Yes....heel down is what I was taught from Boxing coach 25 years ago.
> 
> Creates a stronger punching base.  If your heel is coming up you are lunging or overextending and losing power.



I think kpm and yourself may be arguing past each other. I have found both to be true. You rarely to never want both heels down, but you also don't want both up either. In the first case your TOO rooted to get any real power, and in the second case you aren't rooted enough to get any real power.

At impact, one up, one down. Which is which and when depends on what style you are using. Again, this is just my training and experience talking, your milage might vary.


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2017)

I never said or meant to imply that BOTH heels would be up at the same time.  That would be kind of silly!  No one does that!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> I never said or meant to imply that BOTH heels would be up at the same time.  That would be kind of silly!  No one does that!


To do a "hip throw", you do need that.







Most of the throws will require "heel up".


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## KPM (Oct 14, 2017)

True John!  But we were talking about punching!  But I did actually think of a punching example where both heels are off the ground....the "Superman Punch" in MMA!


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## drop bear (Oct 14, 2017)

KPM said:


> True John!  But we were talking about punching!  But I did actually think of a punching example where both heels are off the ground....the "Superman Punch" in MMA!



Lead right because of the forward step.

You hit a squat like a sprinter.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> You couldn't be more wrong from a biomechanical standpoint.  Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag?  You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???


This depends on methodology.  In our system, definitely the back heel is down as the foot is actively pushed down and back into the ground, which helps rotate the torso and is where we derive our power.  We don’t tend to throw our weight forward into it, but when charging with our punch we still drive the rotation from the back foot.

Of course when moving forward you cannot prevent the heel from rising, as it is biologically impossible to walk in such a manner.  But we do not deliberately lift the heel, especially when punching from a standstill, meaning we are not driving forward.

Our overall method dictates that the back heel down on the ground is more stable and derives better power.  But that is based on our methodology as a whole.

Some other overall methodology may suggest otherwise.  These are not an objective or absolute right or wrong issue that holds for every case. Like many things, it depends.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2017)

TMA17 said:


> My initial thoughts were do you give up agility/mobility? As I’m learning WC, which uses a rooted stance, I find myself much slower and less agile as one would expect. Trade offs I guess.


Heel down doesn't give up agility/ mobility.  However, it will require that you learn how to be agile and mobile differently.  You also have to remember that heels down is not a permanent state.  Sometimes you will be required to move with heels up based on your body position.  Heels up is great for when you have to quickly move over a great distance.  Heels down is faster and more mobile when you are withing punching and kicking range. For most punches and kicks you only need to move a few inches and having heels downs allows you to quickly move without giving up your root for long.   

I think of it like this.  Small dog quickness (heels down) vs greyhound speed (heels up).  Or in human terms basketball quickness (heels down) vs American football quickness (heels up).  Quickness within a short distance vs Quickness within a long distance.  Wing Chun is close fighting so heels down.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> Have you actually tried it on a heavy bag? You really think someone would punch harder with their rear heel on the ground than they would lifting their rear heel so they can better project their weight and momentum forward into the bag???


 I've done it and I can punch harder with my rear heel on the ground than with my heel on the ground. 

Tyson punched with heel down as well.  He did both heel down and heel up punches  But you can see him here punching with the heel down.


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## KPM (Oct 15, 2017)

Are we watching the same video???  His heel sure doesn't seem to stay on the canvas to me! Seems like that rear heel is coming up with every punch.  Sometimes it is off the ground completely!  I don't think I saw an instance where his rear heel DIDN'T come off the canvas!


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## CB Jones (Oct 15, 2017)

KPM said:


> Are we watching the same video???  His heel sure doesn't seem to stay on the canvas to me! Seems like that rear heel is coming up with every punch.  Sometimes it is off the ground completely!  I don't think I saw an instance where his rear heel DIDN'T come off the canvas!



I think he is thinking in the same way i was......You throw the punch with your heel down and it comes up as your hips turn and pivot.....as opposed to starting the punch on your toes and ball of your feet.


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## drop bear (Oct 15, 2017)




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## Danny T (Oct 15, 2017)

Many power punchers throw the punch with the heel down. Often the heel will raise slightly with the follow through as the hips continue to turn.
In my Pekiti training the rear heel is down on punches.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 15, 2017)

CB Jones said:


> I think he is thinking in the same way i was......You throw the punch with your heel down and it comes up as your hips turn and pivot.....as opposed to starting the punch on your toes and ball of your feet.


 Lots of people rotate the torso from the shoulders or from the hips and do not drive from the feet.  This often results in the heel lifting.

Also, in the chaos of a fight, perfect technique will deteriorate and the heel may lift to some degree.  Life ain’t perfect.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 16, 2017)

There are two ways of getting power, standing there, and on the run. Of course, the first is superior, but then you add momentum, and it starts to even out.


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## KPM (Oct 16, 2017)

I think we need to clarify something here.  From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down.  But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot.   In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target.  The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel.  In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch.  The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground.  This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> I think we need to clarify something here.  From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down.  But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot.   In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target.  The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel.  In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch.  The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground.  This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.


Yep. Even when Tyson's heel is down, his weight is still on the ball of his foot.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 16, 2017)

KPM said:


> I think we need to clarify something here.  From a biomechanical standpoint, when putting out force or impact power to the front the rear heel is may be either up or down.  But the key factor is whether you are pushing with the heel of that foot or the ball of that foot.   In classical Karate (and I will assume Michael's Crane style as well from what he has written) the heel is actively pressed into the ground as the punch is delivered for a solid connection between the ground and the target.  The heel stays on the ground the whole time because the puncher is pressing into the ground WITH the heel.  In contrast, in western boxing one is not pressing from the heel, but from the ball of foot to get the momentum of one's body weight behind the punch.  The heel may start down, but its going to come up off the ground because the force is being produced by pressing the ball of the foot into the ground NOT by pressing the heel into the ground.  This is exactly what we see Mike Tyson doing in the video above.


That may be.  I dont know much about the deliberate practices and intentions found within boxing methods.


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