# Martial Arts in Fantasy/Sci-Fi



## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

I like to write.  In particular, I like to write sci-fi action, and might dabble into fantasy action.  Either way, I think Fantasy and Science-Fiction are just two sub-genres of non-realistic fiction (I know fiction isn't reality, but there's a difference between a story about LA cops going undercover in a drug cartel and elves fighting orcs).  Since starting martial arts, I've grown more and more interested about martial arts as they pertain to the sci-fi and fantasy genres, and how I can explore these themes going forward.

I'd like to bring up a few different series/books/movies, and a bit about how martial arts work in those series:  Star Wars, Equilibrium, Animorphs, Dragonball/Harry Potter, The Matrix.

*Star Wars*
Star Wars includes fictional weapons, such as lightsabers and blasters, the former of which can act as a shield against the latter.  It also includes the Force, a power which some can wield for increased physical traits, awareness, and better reaction times, as well as wield for telekenetic powers.

Star Wars Expanded Universe/Legends have exploded with theory and history behind the lightsaber and its use in combat, to include 7 Forms (which are really styles, and there's two Form 5s and two Form 7s so really 9 Forms) of combat.  Some are based on real-life sword styles like Kendo or Fencing, some are based on defense against blasters, and some are based on using the Force to power your techniques.

In modern times, dueling lightsaber clones are available to the public, from companies like Vader's Vault, Ultrasabers, Kyber Light, Saber Forge, and others.  These combine metal handles with high-strength polymer "blades", along with internal electronics like super-bright LEDs, sound cards and speakers.  These allow people to explore the martial arts in Star Wars and even compete.  There are schools like Terra Prime Light Armory which teach "LED sword" techniques (to avoid copyright infringement) based on the martial arts as discussed in the Star Wars Legends.

*Equilibrium*
Equilibrium is set in a dystopian future where emotions are outlawed.  In this future, they have a martial art built around guns, called the Gun Kata, in which gunfighters have analyzed thousands of hours of footage from gunfights, and picked stances and points of aim most likely to shoot your enemy without being shot yourselves.  This art is taught to the Tetragrammaton Clerics, who dual-wield pistols in impressive forms, basically "dodging" bullets with proper stances and knowledge of probable trajectories.

To someone who understands how guns work, it makes very little sense, but it's a cool idea and a very impressive visual spectacle that, for the most part, allows me to suspend my disbelief.  This was a fictional martial art created based on real-world weapons with a fantastical application for them.

*Animorphs*
Animorphs is a book series about kids who gain the ability to morph into animals, for the sake of fighting against an alien invasion.  The aliens are parasitic slugs that enter the brain and take over the host.  They are starting a conquest of Earth, but they have already taken over the Hork-Bajir (7-foot-tall muscle-bound aliens with foot-long spines on their knees and elbows) and the Taxxons (giant centipede-like creatures which are basically useless in combat).  Also included in this series are Andalites, who have the morphing technology, but are already powerful in their own right.  Andalites are centaur-like creatures with a scorpion-like tail that has a scythe-like blade on the end, which is long, fast, strong, and flexible enough to cut off limbs and heads without you even seeing it move.

Animorphs brings up a few interesting martial arts aspects.  On the one hand, it gets to the true nature of many traditional Asian martial arts that are designed after animals, like Tiger style or Praying Mantis style, because the kids are taking the form of animals to fight.  They're literally taking the form of bears, tigers, wolves, and gorillas, and then going hand-to-hand with the aliens mentioned above.

There's also the Andalites, who have a martial art built around their tail-fighting.  There isn't a whole lot of lore here, as most of what you see is simply the main Andalite in the series slicing through enemies, but there are a few parts in the series where two Andalites train together and hone their tail-fighting craft, and give each other advice on technique and on hiding their tells.

I really like this, and it's actually one that interests me the most to explore, especially as I'm in the process of writing a fan-fiction reboot of the series.  There's several ideas to explore here:

Martial arts in their primal form, as in the fighting arts of animals
Along the lines of animal fighting styles, is animals with human minds, and how that might be different
Martial arts of aliens, arts designed based around alien anatomy, i.e. Centaur-like Andalites can't do turning kicks like in Taekwondo, they have weak arms so they're not likely to be boxers or karate experts, but their tail blades are impressive weapons to weild
Less explored in the series, but something I'd like to explore:  human martial arts adapted to a world with aliens or fantasy creatures.  How would Judo work against a centaur?  How about Hapkido against a Harpy?  Boxing against a ghost?  What styles would be best against the Undead?
These ideas also come up in Transformers, i.e. the fighting styles of the Transformers and how they are similar to or different from that of humans.

*Dragonball/Harry Potter*
Dragonball is the extreme extension of the mystical idea behind martial arts, that you can use martial arts knowledge combined with your energy (or some other nonsense) to do ki attacks.  I believe this is common in a LOT of Kung Fu movies, but I typically don't watch them if they delve into this territory.

Unless it takes place in a complete fantasy setting, like The Seven Deadly Sins, Dragonball, Warcraft, Avatar (the airbender series, not the blue people movie), etc. I really don't like the idea of making martial arts unrealistic.  I prefer movies like Ong Bak Thai Warrior, Enter the Dragon, or Undisputed 4.  Many of these have terrible acting, but they have impressive technique.  This is why I love Scott Adkins and Tony Jaa, is they seem to prefer doing movies without wires.  

However, as a kid, I loved Dragonball Z, and all the different energy attacks they had.  Similarly, in many fantasy games, you have mage or wizard classes that can summon balls of fire or ice to attack their enemies.  These are typically not portrayed as martial arts, but in a sense they are, as you can use your knowledge of the world to fight against your enemies, either unarmed or armed with special weapons to help channel your powers.

This is why, halfway through writing this section, I decided to include Harry Potter.  DB and HP are completely different in how they approach martial arts, but both show an extensive repertoire of techniques and show people learning, practicing, and developing those.  Whether you're talking about the Kamehameha Wave and the Special Beam Cannon in Dragonball Z, or you're talking about stun spells, kill spells, and cutting spells in Harry Potter, there is a definite art to what the fighters are doing.

*The Matrix*
The Matrix presents a reality where things are not normally possible, but we've kind of already covered that with Star Wars.  However, the Matrix also provides a way for people to become instant experts in an art.  Dollhouse follows a similar pattern - imprint the Doll with the memories and skills of a martial artist, and they are a martial artist.

I wrote a book called Numan, in which the main character was basically Captain America with an eidetic memory and better senses, among other things.  He was able to learn martial arts in a similar way, where he would see the form diagrams and from those was able to learn the moves.  However, just learning the moves wasn't enough.  He had to be trained in tactics and practical applications (which admittedly didn't take long).

This style of learning martial arts through implanted skills instead of through years of training is certainly an interesting topic.  Ways this topic can be explored include:

Jealousy of people who took years to master martial arts vs. those that were able to carbon-copy install the arts like in The Matrix
Efficacy of experience vs. raw downloaded technique
The search for better versions of the download file, i.e. a "master copy" vs. a "distributed copy" vs. the shareware/pirated version.  Alternatively, people can have tweaked files to include better technique or prune out "fluff", and people can search for the best file available
Exploration of situations like Frankenstein or Gamer, or any other fantasy/sci-fi version of putting the consciousness of a great fighter into a younger or more powerful body.
*This Thread*
I've brought up a lot of different series and ideas, and honestly I'm not sure where I want this thread to go.  I just love science fiction and fantasy action, and I also love martial arts.  So I guess I just wanted a thread to talk about how the two can mix.  This includes:


As a writer, developing martial arts as they pertain to aliens and fantasy races or creatures
How martial arts would be different for a human in worlds with aliens and fantasy races and creatures
Martial arts as they exist in fantasy settings, such as those with magic, The Force, or where ki is a tangible thing
Martial arts with fictional weapons
Martial arts training in these fantasy settings
Instant gratification martial arts training
Fantastical styles for real-world application, such as gun kata, and their training
I'm curious about your thoughts on these topics, or other topics that bridge the genres of unrealistic fiction with the subject of martial arts.


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## Buka (Feb 8, 2018)

I need to think on this for a bit.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

Oh boy where should I start. Lol


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## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> Oh boy where should I start. Lol



Are you trying to dissect what I've said and tell me how terrible my points are?
Are you trying to address the points I bring up?
Do you have your own ideas on topic, but unrelated to mine?
Do you enjoy the same books and movies I do and just want to discuss those?
Do you also write sci-fi or fantasy and want to bring up your experiences in writing martial arts in those genres?

Plenty of places to start!  I'm not helping, am I...


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> As a writer, developing martial arts as they pertain to aliens and fantasy races or creatures


i do not write sci fi  but i would enjoy it. i just do not have enough hours in the day.
so my approach would be to first come up with a little back story on a fantasy race.  i would look at it from an Ethology, Evolutionary Biology and Psychology level.  but this would be an example.
Vodran (species)

i would start with the species biology and put behavior in place.  from the behavior patterns and the species value system and mythology/ religion i could begin to piece together how they would fight and their own agonistic behaviors.
i can assume most people when they write they just let their mind create. i would need some deeper research but i would enjoy that process.  i think this is why i find so many movies detestable.  
for me the first star wars was the best.  Lucas had a lot of plot line help from Joseph Campbell.  if you dont know him you should youtube him. he is a mythology expert.  but after the first one Campbell was not involved and Lucas created from his mind and to me things got worse and worse.  changes in plot and concepts. horrible mistakes in my view. the whole one teacher and one student relationship was ill conceived. dont get me started  lol.


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## Buka (Feb 8, 2018)

Skribs, is your story going to be plot driven or character driven?

And good on you for writing, bro.


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## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

Buka said:


> Skribs, is your story going to be plot driven or character driven?
> 
> And good on you for writing, bro.



Mostly plot driven.  I suck at writing characters.


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## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i would start with the species biology and put behavior in place. from the behavior patterns and the species value system and mythology/ religion i could begin to piece together how they would fight and their own agonistic behaviors.
> i can assume most people when they write they just let their mind create. i would need some deeper research but i would enjoy that process. i think this is why i find so many movies detestable.



I hadn't considered behavior, value systems, mythology, or religion.  That's an excellent idea!  You really caught me, regarding focusing on simply creating unique biology and then building based on that.

For example, I'm working on that Animorphs reboot right now, and I have one of the Animorphs morph into a Hork-Bajir and then fight with a Muay-Thai fighting style.  They're creatures with huge blades on their elbows and knees, so an art that uses a lot of elbow and knee strikes makes a lot of sense.

Of course, this is the behavior of a human who has morphed into an alien, and not the behavior of the alien itself, but it still kind of gives you an idea of what I'm doing with mine.

As I mentioned in my last reply, I suck at writing characters, and so it would be harder for me to focus on values and behavior of a species as it would pertain to martial arts, but it is something I can try.  Thanks for the idea!


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## Touch Of Death (Feb 8, 2018)

The is only Destroyer, and the rest is pale pig's ear stuff...


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> I suck at writing characters.


yeah im just the opposite.   i really want to write a fictional horror story about a serial killer.  the book would be in the form of a diary. written by the killer.  im actually scared to write it with the fear people will think i am really a killer.  i can go deep into character.  but that also scares me a bit because i know that "going there" actually can re wire the brain and the plasticity of the brain is not something i want to mess with.


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## Anarax (Feb 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> there's a difference between a story about LA cops going undercover in a drug cartel and elves fighting orcs


So what would you categorize Bright as? JK



skribs said:


> Star Wars Expanded Universe/Legends have exploded with theory and history behind the lightsaber and its use in combat, to include 7 Forms (which are really styles, and there's two Form 5s and two Form 7s so really 9 Forms) of combat. Some are based on real-life sword styles like Kendo or Fencing, some are based on defense against blasters, and some are based on using the Force to power your techniques.


Great topic!!! Concerning form V, are you referring to the Shien sub-style that utilizes the reverse-grip? Don't forget about form 6's sub-style of Jar'Kai as well. 



skribs said:


> Equilibrium is set in a dystopian future where emotions are outlawed. In this future, they have a martial art built around guns, called the Gun Kata, in which gunfighters have analyzed thousands of hours of footage from gunfights, and picked stances and points of aim most likely to shoot your enemy without being shot yourselves. This art is taught to the Tetragrammaton Clerics, who dual-wield pistols in impressive forms, basically "dodging" bullets with proper stances and knowledge of probable trajectories.
> 
> To someone who understands how guns work, it makes very little sense, but it's a cool idea and a very impressive visual spectacle that, for the most part, allows me to suspend my disbelief. This was a fictional martial art created based on real-world weapons with a fantastical application for them.


Interesting movie, the Gun Kata was an interesting concept, I felt the Gun Chi-sao was kind of glossed over though. 



skribs said:


> As a writer, developing martial arts as they pertain to aliens and fantasy races or creatures
> 
> How martial arts would be different for a human in worlds with aliens and fantasy races and creatures



Writing about martial arts in a fantasy/sci-fi setting isn't that different than writing about anything else. I'm writing a scifi/martial arts novel and I've learned you need to explain it in terms the reader will understand. Not only martial artists.

Essentially the anatomy and physiology of your opponent will change what techniques you use. Internal organ location, bone alignment, structural density, etc.  



skribs said:


> Martial arts as they exist in fantasy settings, such as those with magic, The Force, or where ki is a tangible thing



Balancing it all is in my opinion the most challenging. A championship kick-boxer vs Darth Sidious probably won't end well for the kickboxer. Creating balancing mechanism so such encounters are possible are both time consuming yet fun at the same time. Reading how other novels deal with balancing there characters is a great way to to get started.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Balancing it all is in my opinion the most challenging. A championship kick-boxer vs Darth Sidious probably won't end well for the kickboxer. Creating balancing mechanism so such encounters are possible are both time consuming yet fun at the same time. Reading how other novels deal with balancing there characters is a great way to to get started.



this would not be an issue for me if the characters are from the same universe or solar system.  from an evolutionary view they would have evolved to compete with each other.  unless you want that power discrepancy for plot where one species takes over or controls another species.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Essentially the anatomy and physiology of your opponent will change what techniques you use. Internal organ location, bone alignment, structural density, etc.


but is also changes behavior.  there are tournament type species where they compete for females and resources. think about how moose and rams joust for dominance.   the dominant male has multiple females. there are agonistic behaviors like Peacock showing off " showing off an antler rack ect.  most conspecific competition is not deadly.   on the opposite side of tournament selection is pair bonding selection. 
in tournament selection the male is much bigger than the female and much more aggressive.  in pair bonding selection there is only a small difference between males and females.   so pair bonding types would be good for male / female warrior species.  there is almost no "fathering behaviors" in tournament species.  so if i look at star trek  Klingon's  if the male has a pair bonding relationship with women  and participate in child rearing then it would make sense that the women are just as aggressive and warrior like as the men.

anyways that is how my brain works


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## Anarax (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> this would not be an issue for me if the characters are from the same universe or solar system.  from an evolutionary view they would have evolved to compete with each other.  unless you want that power discrepancy for plot where one species takes over or controls another species.


I see your point. That's another challenging thing to determine, who and where do you want power discrepancies. You want the villains to be powerful and imposing. However; you want the protagonist to be able to contend with the villains, but you must make it believable.


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## Anarax (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> but is also changes behavior.  there are tournament type species where they compete for females and resources. think about how moose and rams joust for dominance.   the dominant male has multiple females. there are agonistic behaviors like Peacock showing off " showing off an antler rack ect.  most conspecific competition is not deadly.   on the opposite side of tournament selection is pair bonding selection.
> in tournament selection the male is much bigger than the female and much more aggressive.  in pair bonding selection there is only a small difference between males and females.   so pair bonding types would be good for male / female warrior species.  there is almost no "fathering behaviors" in tournament species.  so if i look at star trek  Klingon's  if the male has a pair bonding relationship with women  and participate in child rearing then it would make sense that the women are just as aggressive and warrior like as the men.
> 
> anyways that is how my brain works



Yes, the psychological dynamics will be very interesting to explore. I was more so addressing it from a human perceptive. For example, fighting a Hirogen(yes I'm using a Voyager species) will be different than fighting a Vulcan. Though Vulcan are extraordinarily strong for their size, the Hirogen sees you as prey, while the Vulcan doesn't. This will change the way they both fight, and how you will fight them.


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## Anarax (Feb 8, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> this would not be an issue for me if the characters are from the same universe or solar system.  from an evolutionary view they would have evolved to compete with each other.  unless you want that power discrepancy for plot where one species takes over or controls another species.


The Yuuzhan Vong race from Star Wars are a great example of what you're referring to


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## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Great topic!!! Concerning form V, are you referring to the Shien sub-style that utilizes the reverse-grip? Don't forget about form 6's sub-style of Jar'Kai as well.



Shien vs. Djem So.  Juyo vs. Vapaad.



Anarax said:


> Writing about martial arts in a fantasy/sci-fi setting isn't that different than writing about anything else. I'm writing a scifi/martial arts novel and I've learned you need to explain it in terms the reader will understand. Not only martial artists.
> 
> Essentially the anatomy and physiology of your opponent will change what techniques you use. Internal organ location, bone alignment, structural density, etc.



All very good points.



Anarax said:


> Balancing it all is in my opinion the most challenging. A championship kick-boxer vs Darth Sidious probably won't end well for the kickboxer. Creating balancing mechanism so such encounters are possible are both time consuming yet fun at the same time. Reading how other novels deal with balancing there characters is a great way to to get started.



What is a good way to read HOW other novels deal with balancing their characters?



hoshin1600 said:


> this would not be an issue for me if the characters are from the same universe or solar system. from an evolutionary view they would have evolved to compete with each other. unless you want that power discrepancy for plot where one species takes over or controls another species.



It depends on the situation.  Most science-fiction involving aliens the species grew up far away from each other.  For example, Independence Day, we were not evolved for fighting against those aliens.



hoshin1600 said:


> in tournament selection the male is much bigger than the female and much more aggressive. in pair bonding selection there is only a small difference between males and females. so pair bonding types would be good for male / female warrior species. there is almost no "fathering behaviors" in tournament species. so if i look at star trek Klingon's if the male has a pair bonding relationship with women and participate in child rearing then it would make sense that the women are just as aggressive and warrior like as the men.



Very interesting analysis.



Anarax said:


> I see your point. That's another challenging thing to determine, who and where do you want power discrepancies. You want the villains to be powerful and imposing. However; you want the protagonist to be able to contend with the villains, but you must make it believable.



Sometimes the protagonist has no business contending with villains, and does so either by making deals with other villains or relying on his own allies.  But I guess that doesn't help in a martial arts discussion.


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## Anarax (Feb 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> What is a good way to read HOW other novels deal with balancing their characters?


It depends on the genre you're writing. For example, fantasy novels have dozens of mechanism on how the "farm boy" can contend with the warlock. Magical teachings, enchanted items, tactical weaknesses, etc. The mechanism itself isn't that important, but the backstory, explanation and rationalization of the mechanism is. Voldermort placing parts of his soul into various items wasn't a new idea, but Rowling did a great job explaining it. Tolkien had that idea(The Ring) 40 years earlier, but Rowling had an entirely different backstory. Drawing inspiration from various sources, read books that are of a similar genre, just make the story your own.  



skribs said:


> Sometimes the protagonist has no business contending with villains, and does so either by making deals with other villains or relying on his own allies. But I guess that doesn't help in a martial arts discussion.


I was referring to the one on one showdown, but allies can be a balancing mechanism as well.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> Most science-fiction involving aliens the species grew up far away from each other. For example, Independence Day, we were not evolved for fighting against those aliens.


yes but you wrote,


skribs said:


> I have one of the Animorphs morph into a Hork-Bajir


  so to be fair i am not familiar with Hork-Bajir but you desribe them as having blades that extend from their elbows. i would ask why do they have blades from their elbows?
most conspecifics do not fight to the death so they would not be a tournament selection species where they fight amoungst each other with the blades.  perhaps  they evolved as a protection device so they would have a natural predator to battle against.  if the blades were for predatory food hunting that would interesting.  they could be a tournament selection species but then they would fight to the death and would be lone warriors and not function as an army. where other wise blades as a protection devise against predators they might work in large armies like ants. their could also be different classes of males like in bees where there is a warrior class and in other males the blades are not as large and  these males work closely with females in other activities like worker bees.
 you can see how i would work through the character species development.
so some evolutionary development caused the blades and it just so happens to work well within your plot of fighting the Borg,,or some other species.


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## skribs (Feb 8, 2018)

Actually they have blades for slicing tree bark. They are an artificial species created to be arbors.

The Yeerks are the brain parasites that control Hork Bajir to use as shock troops in their conquest.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 9, 2018)

like i said i have no idea about that character, i was just using the concept as a exercise example.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> Star Wars includes fictional weapons, such as lightsabers and blasters


i remember seeing an interview with Lucas and he was talking about how he had the actors using poles for stand in weapons while filming because he wanted to make sure the action looked like the light sabers had some weight to them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> How would Judo work against a centaur? How about Hapkido against a Harpy? Boxing against a ghost? What styles would be best against the Undead?


@kempodisciple, I smell another bracket coming!


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

I love your OP, Skribs. You've put a lot of well-formed thought into the topic. I'll try to drag some thoughts together to contribute. As @AngryHobbit can attest, my memory for any detail of books and movies is pretty laughable, so I'm more likely to have vague references than good details to add.

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking there's some discussion of sword work in one of Heinlein's novels. And I'm remembering at least two books where fencing (one was all saber, I think, and the other included multiple styles) was central to the plot. Mind you, I can't remember what any of those books were, so I'll have to go home and stare at the bookcases.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> Mostly plot driven.  I suck at writing characters.


So did Sue Grafton, and I really enjoy her books, for all their thin characters.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> I hadn't considered behavior, value systems, mythology, or religion.  That's an excellent idea!  You really caught me, regarding focusing on simply creating unique biology and then building based on that.
> 
> For example, I'm working on that Animorphs reboot right now, and I have one of the Animorphs morph into a Hork-Bajir and then fight with a Muay-Thai fighting style.  They're creatures with huge blades on their elbows and knees, so an art that uses a lot of elbow and knee strikes makes a lot of sense.
> 
> ...


Arts, as I see them, are heavily influenced by the culture they develop in. So it would make sense that in your world-building, the culture you create would help define what the martial art(s) of that culture look like. This is most emphasized in writing styles that use more archetypes than nuanced characters (including the original Star Wars). Often, the difference in the fighting styles is used to demonstrate the difference in cultures (one is needlessly brutal, while the other is competently defensive). In other cases, a contrast is deliberately created between the fighting style and the nature of the people (either shown as an adaptation to a threat, or linked to past history of the people).


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> yeah im just the opposite.   i really want to write a fictional horror story about a serial killer.  the book would be in the form of a diary. written by the killer.  im actually scared to write it with the fear people will think i am really a killer.  i can go deep into character.  but that also scares me a bit because i know that "going there" actually can re wire the brain and the plasticity of the brain is not something i want to mess with.


I've been tinkering with details for a fantasy novel for a few years. My problem is I understand the characters too well, but not the plot. I have a first line I kinda like (and that might be part of the problem) and know a bit of the story around it, but can't seem to get past it. I suspect this is one that will never get written.


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## skribs (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I've been tinkering with details for a fantasy novel for a few years. My problem is I understand the characters too well, but not the plot. I have a first line I kinda like (and that might be part of the problem) and know a bit of the story around it, but can't seem to get past it. I suspect this is one that will never get written.



My problem is I either have:


An action set piece I want to build towards
An incredible world and backstory with no plot

For example, I have one book I want to write which takes place in like 2037, and I have the entire history from now until then written as backstory.  I have no story to actually take from there.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> My problem is I either have:
> 
> 
> An action set piece I want to build towards
> An incredible world and backstory with no plot


I'm somewhere between those issues. I know some important action points, and a fair amount about the principle characters and their backstories. How any of it relates to a plot, I haven't a notion. I sometimes think I've confused characters that don't belong in the same world.


> For example, I have one book I want to write which takes place in like 2037, and I have the entire history from now until then written as backstory.  I have no story to actually take from there.


Well, at least you'll have no trouble with the prequels!


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## skribs (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm somewhere between those issues. I know some important action points, and a fair amount about the principle characters and their backstories. How any of it relates to a plot, I haven't a notion. I sometimes think I've confused characters that don't belong in the same world.
> 
> Well, at least you'll have no trouble with the prequels!



Except prequels can be convoluted and boring.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> Except prequels can be convoluted and boring.


Well, yours only has to cover 20 years of history, so probably not too convoluted. As for boring, I guess that depends what you have happening in that 20 years. But then, I like to read books about the long progression of small-scale naval combat in WWII (the sinking of the Shinano), so boring is pretty relative.


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## Tony Dismukes (Feb 9, 2018)

A few writers you might want to look at ...

Steven Barnes is a martial artist (Silat practitioner, I think) and a sci-fic/fantasy author who inserts martial arts ideas into his writing. In one of his series, the protagonist is a former "null-boxer" - essentially a professional MMA fighter who competes in zero-gravity. Since null-boxers can't connect to the ground while striking, they rely on technologically enhanced physiques to torque their bodies fast enough to inflict damage in mid-air.

Jim Butcher is a fantasy author and a martial artist. In his Dresden Files series about a modern-day wizard, he does include some real world martial arts. More on topic for this thread, he has well-thought out fight scenes when magic and/or mythological beings are involved. Harry Dresden can be found mixing fireballs and force blasts with fists, firearms, and improvised weapons. While Dresden is a brawler, some of the more advanced users of magic can be spotted using the mystic arts in a much more subtle, jiu-jitsu-like manner.

Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series has a very well-thought out magic system which produces fight scenes resembling some of what you would see in movies of the Wuxia genre.

Of course, anime has a *ton* of shows tying martial arts to some form of magic or fantastical super-science. In Avatar: The Last Airbender, the four main elemental bending styles were each modeled after a real-world martial art. In Fullmetal Alchemist, each of the characters has a unique fighting style based on their own alchemical specialty. The list goes on and on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 9, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Brandon Sanderson's Mistborn series has a very well-thought out magic system which produces fight scenes resembling some of what you would see in movies of the Wuxia genre.


I didn't even think of these. I second this thought. Also his Stormlight Archive series, which has some pretty cool choices of how to make movements different in a fantasy usage.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> I have one book I want to write which takes place in like 2037, and I have the entire history from now until then written as backstory. I have no story to actually take from there.


this is why i kind of suggest looking into old mythology .  they will give you a frame work.


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## Buka (Feb 9, 2018)

Hey, Skribs, I bet you know more about character than you think you do. I betcha'.

And writing a plot driven piece is hard, real hard. Let's say your book is three hundred and fifty pages - trying to drive a plot for 350 pages is like climbing Mount Everest. I mean, it can be done, but it's wicked hard.

I have some suggestions on character if you're interested. And, again, you probably already know them. You just don't realize you do.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> I like to write.  In particular, I like to write sci-fi action, and might dabble into fantasy action.  Either way, I think Fantasy and Science-Fiction are just two sub-genres of non-realistic fiction (I know fiction isn't reality, but there's a difference between a story about LA cops going undercover in a drug cartel and elves fighting orcs).  Since starting martial arts, I've grown more and more interested about martial arts as they pertain to the sci-fi and fantasy genres, and how I can explore these themes going forward.


Yay, a fellow sci fi writer!


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I love your OP, Skribs. You've put a lot of well-formed thought into the topic. I'll try to drag some thoughts together to contribute. As @AngryHobbit can attest, my memory for any detail of books and movies is pretty laughable, so I'm more likely to have vague references than good details to add.
> 
> Off the top of my head, I'm thinking there's some discussion of sword work in one of Heinlein's novels. And I'm remembering at least two books where fencing (one was all saber, I think, and the other included multiple styles) was central to the plot. Mind you, I can't remember what any of those books were, so I'll have to go home and stare at the bookcases.


Not surprisingly, I thought about Heinlein too. Also not surprisingly - I know which novel you are thinking about even though you don't. It's _Glory Road_ - Oscar Gordon's duel with the Eater of Souls, plus his other skirmishes with various nasty creatures such is the Cold Water Gang and the constructs in Karth Hockesh. The duel scene is one of my favorite pieces of writing EVER - it's exquisite. 

I also hope you are not confusing this with the opening scene of Agatha Christie's _Mystery of the Spanish Chest_ with Hercule Poirot.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

I play to my advantages, so my writing mostly includes travel, scenery, and thinking - but no fighting. There is sometimes struggle. An occasional slap. But no fighting. Most of my characters are nerds - frequently with very poor fitness levels. You know what all the writing gurus (including Stephen King) say - write what you know.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> this is why i kind of suggest looking into old mythology .  they will give you a frame work.


Old mythology is a brilliant idea - I pillaged SO much from that. Actually had two short story series with half the characters pulled out from African, Norse, Russian, Native American, Indian, Greek, and other mythologies. Awesome fun! The research on those is sometimes more enjoyable than the writing process itself.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> Except prequels can be convoluted and boring.


Depends on who writes the prequel. Be someone who writes good ones - and you'll have no problem at all.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 9, 2018)

Now that I think about this (you are all going to regret @gpseymour dragged me into this )... There are some interesting unconventional fights in some of the old-fashioned Russian sci fi I work with a lot. 

For example, in Alexander Belyaev's _Ariel _there is an aerial fight between a flying man and an eagle. The man in question flies without any devices or wings (it's explained in the book), but the author didn't want to make him all-powerful or invincible. So, it's actually a pretty intense scene in the book. 

In another book - also by Belyaev - _Amphibian Man_ there is a fight between the main character who can breathe underwater and a veritable army of squids. I don't think he gave quite enough credit to how smart squids actually are - somewhat forgivable, since this was written in the late 1930s, and we are still figuring out the brainpower of these critters. Still, I thought it a bit unrealistic how easily the guy had beaten them. I think they could have had him for lunch if they strategized a little.

In yet another Belyaev novel there is a fight in 1/10 of Earth's gravity - he does a good job talking about the difference between mass and weight, and how that impacts the dynamic of the fight. Would be fun to try what we know at different gravity levels - 1/10 or, like on the Moon, 1/6.

Another write, Ivan Yefremov, frequently has conflict in his books and these confrontations almost always fall into one of two groups. Either the book focuses on the ancient times (from cave dwellers, to ancient civilizations like Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.), and the fight is very physical in nature, often man vs. beast (sabretooth tiger, wild boar, a ticked off bear, a runaway horse, etc.) Or the book is about the distant future, and the conflict is about brain vs. brawn. In the _Hour of the Bull_, a dictator panics when the spaceship captain leaves all his guards mentally "frozen". He asks her to bring them back to normal state and wants to know how she managed. She tells him with a laugh he had surrounded himself with too many people who are too used not to have the will of their own, which makes them very susceptible to the power of suggestion originating from another strong-willed person. 

Russians aside,  Francis Carsac (Francois Bordes) had lots of good fights and battles in his books. In _Parasites in the lion's mane_, it was a bit unfair, since the male lead was practically a super-man - a triple Phd decathelete, who just happened to own a super-lion - a lab animal larger than a regular lion and with the intellect roughly of a seven-year old. Quote a few altrecations ended with someone's head flattened into a pancake, and the lion sitting off to the side contentedly, licking his paws.

One of the more bizarre fights was in Carsac's _Earth's Escape_, in which three factions were involved, but one of the factions insistent there were only two, because its members were brainwashed not to see the members of the third faction. Weird stuff!


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## Anarax (Feb 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> Mostly plot driven.  I suck at writing characters.


Though there are different challenges in writing plot vs characters driven stories, don't let some of the complexities of character driven stories deter you. Character writing is much easier than people make it out to be. If you have a clear understanding of who and what your characters are, the writing process becomes much easier. 

Writing a somewhat in-depth analysis of your main characters before you start the story is a great place to start. Anything from basic characteristics to deep rooted flaws and insecurities will help shape the story. The actions of the characters should be consistent with the traits they have.


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## skribs (Feb 9, 2018)

Anarax said:


> Though there are different challenges in writing plot vs characters driven stories, don't let some of the complexities of character driven stories deter you. Character writing is much easier than people make it out to be. *If you have a clear understanding of who and what your characters are, the writing process becomes much easier. *
> 
> Writing a somewhat in-depth analysis of your main characters before you start the story is a great place to start. *Anything from basic characteristics to deep rooted flaws and insecurities will help shape the story. *The actions of the characters should be consistent with the traits they have.



The bolded parts are the parts I have most trouble with.


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## skribs (Feb 9, 2018)

Regarding beliefs and combat...there's a book I read a while back called Eyes of Silver.  In that book, there were two main factions that both had magic, but one faction considered it perverse to use magic on people, while the other considered it perverse to use magic on objects.  The first faction therefore would enchant weapons, armor, and vehicles for fighting, while the later faction would use magic to boost their own capabilities or use magic itself offensively.


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## Anarax (Feb 10, 2018)

skribs said:


> The bolded parts are the parts I have most trouble with.



The easiest way to approach it is write what you know. Using your own traits and embedding them into some of your characters is a great way to get others to relate to them. For example; if you have a temper, you can describe in great detail on how it feels to have a temper and illustrate the drawbacks of having one. Giving a highly detailed account of what it feels to have certain traits puts the reader in the character's shoes, even if the reader doesn't have said traits.

There are going to be traits that you're going to have to write about that you don't have though. In those cases reading other character driven stories will help you understand how that is done. It usually comes down to providing enough detail and making the reader empathize with the characters. Brushing up on developmental and behavioral psychology isn't a bad idea either. Just understanding why people are the way that they are will be invaluable as a character writer.


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## skribs (Feb 10, 2018)

Anarax said:


> The easiest way to approach it is write what you know. Using your own traits and embedding them into some of your characters is a great way to get others to relate to them. For example; if you have a temper, you can describe in great detail on how it feels to have a temper and illustrate the drawbacks of having one. Giving a highly detailed account of what it feels to have certain traits puts the reader in the character's shoes, even if the reader doesn't have said traits.
> 
> There are going to be traits that you're going to have to write about that you don't have though. In those cases reading other character driven stories will help you understand how that is done. It usually comes down to providing enough detail and making the reader empathize with the characters. Brushing up on developmental and behavioral psychology isn't a bad idea either. Just understanding why people are the way that they are will be invaluable as a character writer.



My degree is in psychology...


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> My degree is in psychology...


Mine is in mechanical engineering, although I minored in social psychology during undergrad. Psychology doesn't hurt, of course, but I think it's more fun to write the characters as if you were to interact with them. You know? If this character was your friend - what would he be like? If that character was your next-door baker - what sort of person would he be? And if that one over there was someone you really weren't too fond of - what traits would he possess? 

Also, I think it's not atypical for literary characters to not quite fit with any specific psychological profile. What often draws us to certain books is that the heroes are nothing like what we are used to seeing around us. They are larger than life - both heroes and villains.


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## Anarax (Feb 12, 2018)

skribs said:


> My degree is in psychology...


Having a degree in psychology will help, either with story or character driven. More so with character though.


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## Anarax (Feb 12, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> Also, I think it's not atypical for literary characters to not quite fit with any specific psychological profile.


It's not they must fit a specific profile, but more so the character dynamics making sense. 



AngryHobbit said:


> What often draws us to certain books is that the heroes are nothing like what we are used to seeing around us.


Though many readers, in particularly scif/fantasy, are drawn to characters with interesting abilities. However; that's not automatically exclusive to relatability. Game of Thrones is a great example of this. Characters that possess great abilities, wealth and status, but are relatable to your average reader. What makes them relatable are their personalities and character dynamics. Even a few of their "villains" are relatable because they show their human side to the reader.  



AngryHobbit said:


> They are larger than life - both heroes and villains.


I think their abilities and situations need to be larger than life, but having believable and flawed characters makes it more interesting.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 12, 2018)

Anarax said:


> I think their abilities and situations need to be larger than life, but having believable and flawed characters makes it more interesting.


I pretty much eat it all up.  I started reading sci fi when I was ten. My dad used it to teach me how to read faster. So, he and I would sit next to each other on the couch reading the same book, and I had to learn to keep up. Frances Carsac's stuff was the first sci fi I've read, and his situations were more interesting than his characters, especially in _Earth's Escape_.

And then I read the Strugatski brothers - and they preferred to write their characters real and ordinary, but place them in extraordinary situations. 

Ever since then, I've been oscillating between these two types of characters in my reading, although in my writing I veer more toward believable. That's why I like writing nerds - I am a sucker for unlikely heroes.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 14, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> i do not write sci fi  but i would enjoy it. i just do not have enough hours in the day.
> so my approach would be to first come up with a little back story on a fantasy race.  i would look at it from an Ethology, Evolutionary Biology and Psychology level.  but this would be an example.
> Vodran (species)
> 
> ...



Anthropology 101, then maybe throw in a little astronomy.

I once took a course titled Extraterrestrial Life and Interstellar Travel.  At least one course in anthropology and one in astronomy were required prerequisites.  Not at all as easy as one might assume, but very informative.  One of the things we were required to do was select an approved by the professor book, and using what we learned in the class, critique to book.

FWIW, I don't suspect one needs anything more than a fertile mind, but such study would probably make a book more interesting.


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## hoshin1600 (Feb 14, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> FWIW, I don't suspect one needs anything more than a fertile mind, but such study would probably make a book more interesting.


as a pure sci-fi  sure.  but the OP was leaning toward martial arts based fantasy.  so my thinking was that in order to create on the page a martial art that did not already exist, you would need some back round  that would make the art believable.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 14, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> as a pure sci-fi  sure.  but the OP was leaning toward martial arts based fantasy.  so my thinking was that in order to create on the page a martial art that did not already exist, you would need some back round  that would make the art believable.



That's a good point.  I let that part slip by.  But I need not be restrained as I am not doing the writing.  

But in high school, I did seriously consider writing sci-fi myself.  Somehow I just never got past a lot of notes on things to include in some stories.


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## Buka (Feb 14, 2018)

There's never an easy time to start writing, unless you just start writing.

All you really need is a can of bum glue and an idea.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 14, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Anthropology 101, then maybe throw in a little astronomy.
> 
> I once took a course titled Extraterrestrial Life and Interstellar Travel.  At least one course in anthropology and one in astronomy were required prerequisites.  Not at all as easy as one might assume, but very informative.  One of the things we were required to do was select an approved by the professor book, and using what we learned in the class, critique to book.
> 
> FWIW, I don't suspect one needs anything more than a fertile mind, but such study would probably make a book more interesting.


So which book did you pick?


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## Gerry Seymour (Feb 14, 2018)

Buka said:


> There's never an easy time to start writing, unless you just start writing.
> 
> All you really need is a can of bum glue and an idea.


I've started multiple books - fiction, non-fiction, and parable-style business stuff. When I'm working by myself, I start strong, then get lost in the structure and can't get past a point. I'm much better when collaborating.


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## Anarax (Feb 15, 2018)

Buka said:


> There's never an easy time to start writing, unless you just start writing.
> 
> All you really need is a can of bum glue and an idea.



Agreed, you must have discipline if you want to write. However; I have found that some days the creative juices are flowing better than others. When I review what I've written I can see a huge difference in quality from the more natural days vs the forced days. But that may just be me.


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## oftheherd1 (Feb 15, 2018)

AngryHobbit said:


> So which book did you pick?



Sorry, too long ago.  I only remember that one alien species was crablike, and 'saw' through sound rather than light, and the other was a species that was more balloon like and floated in the air.


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## AngryHobbit (Feb 16, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Sorry, too long ago.  I only remember that one alien species was crablike, and 'saw' through sound rather than light, and the other was a species that was more balloon like and floated in the air.


Hmmmmmm.... doesn't ring a bell.


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