# Kosutemi Seieikan - Intro, General Info and Basics



## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 16, 2005)

Good Morning:

Just a quick post to say 'Hi'.  I had posted on this forum a year or so ago while I was considering taking up MA again after a hiatus from TKD.  I've been looking for a dojo on and off in the past year and found one, finally, about 15 minutes from home.  My wife, two stepchildren (f-11, m-7) and I began study of Ko Sutemi under Sensei Danny Phillips.

My question, if anyone would like to help, deals with the differences between Shotokan and Ko Sutemi.  At this time, I know that Sutemi is derived from Shotokan and Master Funakoshi.  My experience is with TKD and not the Japanese/Okinawan styles.  

Can anyone elaborate?

Thank you,

egg


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## searcher (Sep 16, 2005)

I have found several website sthat contain information on this style.   So far thwe differences I se are in the names of the kata.   They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?   I will keep looking and see what I can come up with.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 16, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?


I saw that, too.  That could simply be the 'We're Number 1!' mindset.  My Sensei has not made such a claim to me personally.  

egg


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## JAMJTX (Sep 16, 2005)

There are a few concers in looking at the web site.

The "Soke" claims to be a 9th Dan in Karate.  But all it says about his training is that he learned Jujitsu from his father in 1942.  That would be quite unusual, unless his father lived in Hawaii or CA and got in with Okazaki or some of his students.  I don't know any other group that taught Jujitsu to occidentals.  It is likely that it was Judo.  Also, there is no indication of where he got his karate training, when, for how long, who his teachers were or who promoted him to 9th Dan.

If this is supposed to be some off shoot of Shotokan, it should not be too difficult to research his Shotokan background.  Ask him who his teachers were and where he got that 9th Dan.  Then contact them and ask for verification.  If it seems like some hokey organization ask back here about them.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 16, 2005)

In defence of Soke Madden, I see that his claim to The World Martial Arts Hall Of Fame is legitimate.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 16, 2005)

Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan appears to be a mixture of Shotokan with Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu.  The style has a strong emphasis on tournament competition.

Don Madden trained Tokey Hill, who won the WUKO world championships.  Tokey Hill now states that what he himself teaches is Shotokan.

I was there when Mr. Madden received his 8th or 9th dan in jujitsu.  It was at the Irish Cup tournament in the Shoemaker Center gym at OU-C.  The rank was awarded by his students.

A friend of mine dates a girl in Don Madden's karate class in Chillicothe.  He said that she claims that there is hardly any emphasis in the class on traditional karate or on self defense, just in getting ready for the next tournament (please note that this is third-hand info).

Also under the organizational banner is Seiei-kan Jujitsu, Seiei-kan Tomiki Aikido, and Seiei-kan Shaolin.

Their website is akjuteamamerica.com 

Hope this helps.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 16, 2005)

My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.

egg


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Sep 16, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My Sensei, Danny Phillips, has so far emphasized kata, stances, kumite and basics as well as some general self-defence for children. There is no doubt the dojo competes; it does often. I simply see traditional training, as well, at this time.
> 
> egg


Understood.  I was just conveying info which came to me about classes taught by the system's head.
If you like the style, don't worry about what others say, just go for it.  
Happy training!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 16, 2005)

Thank you and my apologies if I seemed defensive.  I appreciate the information.  I will say this thing, though:  membership in the AKJU is optional within the dojo.  If I want to be belted, however (and perhaps compete) membership is reasonably priced.  I found that interesting.


egg


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## searcher (Sep 17, 2005)

There is nothing wrong with competition as long as you have other things to go with it and it sounds like you are getting that.   I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.   My opinion is if it works for you then go for it.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 17, 2005)

searcher said:
			
		

> I would like to know more about Mr. Maddens karate training and who promoted him.


As I learn more about the lineage of my Sensei and his teachers, I will gladly share it here.  My teacher frequently visits his teachers; so, I believe I will get to meet Mr. Madden, in time.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 20, 2005)

While Sensei and I sparred last night, he shared some of his thoughts and definitions on Ko Sutemi with me.

First, he spoke of Ko Sutemi being an American system. Although derived from Shotokan, it is a combination of other forms designed to provide the fighter with enough resources to win.

Second, he stressed the definition of Ko Sutemi as 'small sacrifice'. I should be willing to recieve a body shot if I can throw a head shot because of it. Ko Sutemi also means 'success by all means' and positiveness.

Practicing my first kata, fu ku gata ichi, I see that it is similar to TKD's white belt kibon; therefore, similar to many first rung forms.

Sensei is very much a hand fighter. I tend to kick more than punch. He said, with a smile, he would teach me to fight properly. 

Right now, we practice with children and adults combined. I'm told that, once fall settles in, more adults will return and classes will be separated once again.


egg


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## Gene Williams (Sep 20, 2005)

Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


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## Andrew Green (Sep 20, 2005)

Nah, it happens all the time.  Head of associations often get promoted by there own association.  And really, since the rank has no meaning outside of that organization, who cares?

 Gichin Funakoshi never called himself anything higher then 5th, students promoted him after he died if I remember correctly.  But there are a good deal of Shotokanees that are higher then 5th, soI'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that not everyone has been promoted by someon of higher rank then them.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Sep 20, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


If there were nothing to counter that, I would've considered it a red flag.  There is, however, in my dojo, few red flags so far.  Emphasis is on kata, basics and effective fighting.  There is no push for rank, competition, trophies, belt-fees or the like.  This statement is qualified with 'at this time'.

egg


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 13, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Hmmm, all of a sudden it seems like you're my first Ko Sutemi student in 6 years. ... No bowing required. The invoice for your monthly class fee is in the mail. lol


arigato :asian: 

It seems that Ko Sutemi Seieikan is not a frequently spoken-of art.  It is, therefor, excellent to have someone to talk to.


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## Navarre (Oct 13, 2005)

Despite a few of the disparaging comments here, Ko Sutemi is not bunk. It is also not solely for tournaments.

It is true that most classes seem to focus a lot on tournaments but I have found most of my techniques to apply readily in real situations.  Like any art, it has more to do with your teacher and what you put into it than it does with what label you put on it.

There are techniques I no longer emphasize in my integrated system, such as the rising block. It was hard for me to let go of one of "The Basics" but I didn't find it to be as effective in real life as other protective techniques. There was therefore no need to force students to practice it endlessly. However, almost every principle in the art has served me well. 

I also found that those principles made my transition to a more fluid art (in my case ju-jitsu) fairly easy.  In my 12 years of ju-jitsu training I have seen many practioners of other arts (some higher ranked than myself) struggle greatly with the concept on angled attacks, flow, and relaxed power.

By this statement I am not suggesting that the important thing was that I move to another art anyway because my karate training still gives me many advantages that my ju-jitsu colleagues don't have.  

Always take what works and discard what doesn't. Of course, I know right now you don't have that option nor will your sensei suddenly stop teaching rising blocks just because of my opinion. That's okay. For now, train hard in everything because it all comes together. In time you will find what works for you.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 14, 2005)

I have read very few negative comments about this or any other art on this board.  Maybe I'm not looking close enough or, perhaps, I simply overlook such posts.


I admit that my dojo works toward tournaments.  However, it does not do so at the expense of traditional work or basics training or good health.  Sensei loves his bragging rights 

I do enjoy this style and I like Sensei.  He's genuine and open; but, I can see myself transitioning to another art at some distant point.  Wing Chun, I like and some other Chinese styles.  There are many to choose from.  Seieikan will be a good foundation for these, I agree.

I do train hard.  Some things are easier, even at this short interval.  I will continue.

Arigato


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 17, 2005)

Ok...back to some sembelance of reality 

I'm going to start to tape my practice here at home.  I can't think of a better critic than myself when it comes to me.

Question: has anyone else taped themselves?  is it a good idea or a trip into despair?

thanks


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## Navarre (Oct 17, 2005)

No, I think it's a great idea. I've taped my katas and techniques, as well as belt tests. It shows me progression, even regression, and easily points out areas to be improved. I have to take into account intangible things like age, conditioning, spiritual state, and so forth but it is indeed a very helpful tool.

My sensei also had some tapes of himself as a white belt and yellow belt. One day when I was struggling and felt like I didn't have what it took, he showed methe tapes. We laughed together at them and I realized that all of our journies are perpetually uphill but worth the trip.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 19, 2005)

Well, class is taking a good turn. Sensei is beginning to train a little tougher, even on the kids. Discipline is now required, not requested. Pushup sessions for misbehaviour are starting to occur with more frequency.

I think this is good. I mean, it's ok for the kids to have fun; but, basic dojo discipline needs to be laid out clearly.

Focusing more on me, Sensei spends a little more time instructing me at my level of comprehension each class and I am much appreciative. Things like what an opponents stance will tell me, how they hold their hands, etc. I'm beginning speed drills at home, changing up combinations of blocks and strikes. I'm going to construct a primitive marakawa this week and begin beating the daylights out of it, too.

Hey, I just noticed: I'm a glorious beacon of light, now.  Whooda thunkit?


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## Navarre (Oct 19, 2005)

Maybe for variety's sake you would want to work in some of the improvised training drills I mentioned in an earlier post here. The basketball drill is actually kind of fun as well as useful in several ways. My post is partway down the page, right after one of yours (so I'm sure you've read it).


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 19, 2005)

navarre said:
			
		

> I never had a speed bag. I had a basketball. I stood a few feet away from a solid wall and popped the basketball into the wall with a "three-inch" punch, then repeated the action with the opposite hand as the basketball recoiled to me. I would see how many repeat hits I could get in a row. Good for timing, force control, and knuckle conditioning.
> 
> I have mentioned elsewhere about lighting a candle and throwing reverse punches or backfists at it. The goal is to suck the flame out *toward* you instead of pushing it away. The same drill can be done with a styrofoam cup sitting upside down near the edge of a table. This works on speed of recoil and economy of motion.


Well, I'm skipping the railway suggestion right off the bat; but, the b-ball one will help certainly.  I can do that in my driveway.

Any speed drill, such as the candle one, cannot but help to increase performance. 

Domo


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## Navarre (Oct 19, 2005)

As you progress, you will find the railway suggestion a fitting test. At higher levels you will be able to move so quickly, running backwards along a single rail of the track, that the oncoming train will never touch you. 

You should be able to moderate your running speed so that you can keep pace just ahead of the train, touching it with one hand at all times without it hitting you.

When true mastery comes, you will realize there is no train. The train shall pass harmlessly through you because your mind will recognize that it was only real in your mind.

... My advice would be to start with the basketball drill first.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 19, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> ...there is no train...My advice would be to start with the basketball drill first.


Wait..._is_ there a basketball?

Domo


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## Navarre (Oct 19, 2005)

Ah-so. You have taken the first step toward enlightenment, my young padwan learner.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 20, 2005)

Man, I can hardly get any practice time in this week.  Our church band (of which I am trombonist ichi) is goin' on da road Friday and the setlist is tricky.  I missed class last night; but, I'm going tonight.  Too much...it's like trombonekan or Ko Sutembone or something.  Overload!


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## Kosokun (Oct 21, 2005)

Gene Williams said:
			
		

> Ho-hum. Students don't award their instructors ninth dan. It is a BS organization. RUN to another dojo.


 Hi Gene,

 Don Madden's Legit.  When I was competing on the USA Karate Team, he was our Coach.  He produced several members of the team over the years and has built a large organization that provides support to "orphans" from traditional karate.  He's now involved with the IJJF and USA Jujitsu and has produced several top flight Jujitsu competitors.  Both, his involvement with Karate and with Jujitsu has been with the International Governing Bodies under the International Olympic Committee.  

 On top of that, he's a good guy, Gene.  You'd really enjoy hanging out with him.

 Rob


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 21, 2005)

Thank you, Kosokun.

I've been with this school for a month and a half now and my personal feeling is that it is not a beltmill or McDojo.  Information on the web is scattered and sketchy, at best, for Seieikan.  I enjoy hearing from someone with real experience.

Thank you again.

:asian:


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## Flashing Dagger (Nov 2, 2005)

Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years and while I have never been a student of Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan I have heard his name thrown around for all of my life it seems.

I think Don Madden is legit and his daughter is a well respected sport JuiJitsu champion. I am friends with several of his students and I have no beef with them. However, Mr. Madden's art seems to focus very much on competition sparring. Coming from a purely self-defense point of view, as kenpo does, it seems silly when one of Madden's students tells me that the backfist should "go the side of the head where the judge will be standing". I would hope that they are learning more than just dancing around throwing jabs at each other.

However I guess it all depends on what you are looking for. Competition point sparring is a difficult skill to learn, one that you can really delve into and be proud of your accomplishments. But I've always been a little turned off by all of the plaques, trophies and patches at the Ko Sutemi dojo. It makes people think that the fish is bigger than it really is.

By the way, Soke Don Madden holds a 9th degree in his own art.


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## Navarre (Nov 2, 2005)

I agree, Dagger. Ko Sutemi is rather focused on competitions. Still, I have built my martial arts foundation on this system and have found it very well-rounded. 

Of course, back in the day (1984 to be exact) my particular sensei and dojo had already become more focused on practical application than tournament wins. 

As I have explored other systems I have found that almost everything I learned in Ko Sutemi has been applicable and of value. That which wasn't as valuable has been reduced or removed in my integrated system. 

Thus I can't really call it Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan but many of the techniques would be recognizable as originating from there.

It's interesting that you live so close to Mr. Madden. Hopefully he and Heather are doing well. I haven't seen them in years.


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## Flashing Dagger (Nov 2, 2005)

Actually I live on Paint Street in downtown Chillicothe, perhaps a few blocks from the 2nd Street Dojo across from the Majestic theater.  I graduated from high school in 1991 and at that time everyone was talking about Tokey Hill, Tokey Hill, Tokey Hill.....  I've met both Heather and Mr. Madden a few times although I doubt if they would remember me.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 3, 2005)

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years and while I have never been a student of Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan I have heard his name thrown around for all of my life it seems.
> 
> I think Don Madden is legit and his daughter is a well respected sport JuiJitsu champion. I am friends with several of his students and I have no beef with them. However, Mr. Madden's art seems to focus very much on competition sparring. Coming from a purely self-defense point of view, as kenpo does, it seems silly when one of Madden's students tells me that the backfist should "go the side of the head where the judge will be standing". I would hope that they are learning more than just dancing around throwing jabs at each other.
> 
> ...


 
Thank you for this insight.  My initial apprehension has, over the months, been calmed and, indeed, vanquished.  I have little doubt of Mr. Madden's legitimacy and have come to accept the emphasis on competition without rancor or worry.

In fact, the idea of rigorous competition appeals to me, somewhat.  If that were all Danny was teaching me, I would likely run off because I need a bit more depth.  I'm also being taught a measure of self-defence and Jujitsu is on the horizon, as well.

As to current classes, we had some returning adults last night and I had 3 additional people in my weight class to spar with.  That's a good thing for me.  I left last night with a stoved finger and a well-bruised shin.  I felt like I did some serious sparring for a change.

And I hear quite a bit about Tokey Hill, too   Sensei is a treasure trove of anecdotes   I hope to meet Mr. Madden soon.

:asian:


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## Navarre (Nov 3, 2005)

I met Tokey Hill a long time ago (seems like maybe 1985 or '86).  He was friends with my sensei. I was so new back then I didn't even realize what he had accomplished.  

He was the guy who taught me the blitz attack. It has since become a vital part of my attack arsenal.  ... It also allows me to get the drop on my ju-jitsu classmates before they can grapple and plant me.  heh heh


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## OnlyAnEgg (Nov 3, 2005)

Sensei sez we'll have an opportunity to meet Tokey here in a couple weeks.  Road trip to Mt. Vernon (I think) to train at a dojo there and he should be there.


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 4, 2005)

Flashing Dagger said:
			
		

> Hello, I live here in Chillicothe, Ohio and Mr. Madden's dojo is just around the corner from my house. I have studied the art of kenpo for several years...


Flashing Dagger, do you study with Greg Daniels?
Sorry to stray off-topic folks (Yeah, _right_, Randy. Like this is the first time).


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## Flashing Dagger (Nov 4, 2005)

No, I don't study with Greg Daniels, but I know him.  I drive to Columbus for Kenpo now but My previous instructor got his 1st black from Greg.  Are you with Greg Daniels?


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## Randy Strausbaugh (Nov 6, 2005)

No, I studied with Jay T. Will, so I can sympathize with your drive to Columbus for lessons  .


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Navarre, here's a question.  Did you train Seieikan in W VA?  I met a Sensei from Parkersburg, Paul Snider and was wondering if you may've known (know) him.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

Yes, Egg, I trained in WV.  I am originally from Calhoun County.  It's near the center of the state.  If you ever want to visit there, drive to the edge of the world and hang a left.  The population dropped by 50% the day I left.

My sensei is Don Underwood. He used to be a social studies teacher at the high school.  I met him there in school but started Seiei Kan under him.

His instructor was Mr. Madden. I first met Mr. Madden in 1984 in Parkersburg.  He tested me for the kata portion of my yellow belt test. At that time I was so new to everything I didn't even realize how important he was.

I don't know Paul Snider, sorry.  However, I believe Don is living in Vienna or Parkersburg now.  

I very much regret that he and I have lost touch over the last 5 or 6 years.  It's a complicated chain of events that still doesn't excuse the fact that I'm not in touch with the man who's like a father to me.

There are several Seiei Kan schools in the area and I still have a lot of connections if I needed to dig someone up. Let me know if there's any info or help you need.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Thanks for responding oh so quickly, Navarre.  Actually, not long after I posted, I did a search on your style and turned up the site for your dojo.  Lots of good info!

There is a Seieikan tournament coming up down West Virginia way.  I haven't decided on attendance to this next one or not.  I may wait until later in the year and see if there's any others.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I did a search on your style and turned up the site for your dojo. Lots of good info!


 
You may have come across my old web page by mistake. The new web page, unfortunately, is having some issues that I need to resolve so it may not come up at all. The information is largely the same except the older one is out of date. I really need to get this fixed.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Yeah...I noticed you're belt level wasn't current on the site I visited.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

Try entering this address into your browser. Don't click on it because that will just load the parent directory and be confusing:

http://www.geocities.com/navarre_2001/Aze-Ki/

and then manually type any of the following extensions after it. It's the links that's broken.

history.htm
karate.htm
jujitsu.htm
senseis.htm
gallery2.htm

Hopefully that'll come out okay. The whole site is like 2 yrs out of date. Sorry. 

I'm the one who put together the page but it's my partner who runs all the schools now (thanks to moving with the wife). He and I aren't in touch as often as I'd like so I haven't kept the site up to date. Makes us look pretty unprofessional. 

I'm working on some ways to get this back up and going though. It's largely just for ppl in our area but it's still our internet face to the world.

Let me know what you think of it. Thanks, Egg.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

hrm...that's the site I was at earlier.  I had to view source in order to see what was in the java dropdowns.  I may be able to do a thing or two to help.  Gimme a bit of time.

The tourney in WVA that I mentioned is linked  here.

Edit: Nope, I take that back.  The page I was at was phoenix.htm.  Same directory, though.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

phoenix.htm is the first page that loads up when ppl go to aze-ki.com
It is supposed to load the visit counter, link buttons, and our phoenix logo is supposed to rise up onto the screen.  The buttons are not loading though.

As for my rank being incorrect, I believe it is correct here. I am second degree in Ko-Sutemi Seiei Kan and 4th degree in Manabi-Masho Ju-Jitsu and Shoo-Jin. 

But my original style is Seiei Kan. I just haven't been able to train under anyone since 1997.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Try putting the fphover.class in the next directory up. If I read the code correctly, it's looking for it there. Maybe the fphoverx.class, too. I read:

```
[SIZE=2]
codebase="../" 
[/SIZE]
```

meaning that the codebase is in the next directory up. That could be the problem

_Edit:  Wait...strike that.  I may not be able to see what's happening because that class file is blocked by our fire-flippin-wall.  Lemme look at it from home._


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> _Edit: Wait...strike that. I may not be able to see what's happening because that class file is blocked by our fire-flippin-wall. Lemme look at it from home._


 
Okay, will do. Thanks, Egg!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> Okay, will do. Thanks, Egg!


 
You're welcome   It's what I do.

Now...let's get this topic back on track!

I get my yellow belt as soon as I pay the Union Dues.  I should be green by February, at the latest.  I have to say, though, it's been fun to present myself as a white belt.  I get to surprise my opponents that way.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> I get my yellow belt as soon as I pay the Union Dues. I should be green by February, at the latest.


 
What happened to blue belt? Isn't blue still between yellow and green?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 7, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> What happened to blue belt? Isn't blue still between yellow and green?


 
erp!  I don't honestly know or else I'm brainlocked with the TKD heirarchy.  I should be (how's this) Post-Yellow by the beginning of February.


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## Navarre (Dec 7, 2005)

lol That'll work.

The progression of belts (back in the olden days) was:

White, Yellow, Blue, Green, Purple, Brown, Brown (2nd degree), Black (and degrees thereof).


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## OnlyAnEgg (Dec 9, 2005)

Cool.  Thanks, Navarre.

Yesterday, at work, I was out in the RADIAC building doing some updates.  I knew one woman out there competed in TKD for some time; so, I started her talking about it.  Turns out she practiced ATA TKDfor some 11 years and was only to ready to brag about it   A little later, another coworker came in and, as it turns out, he is involved in karate, as well!  He knows my sensei and my sensei's sensei,too.  He took the time to explain to me the three levels of blocking/striking and how to move off-center when my opponent is closing the gap along the center.  I was ready to try this out at class last night.  Unfortunately, sensei didn't seem to get the memo and was attacking me off center all evening.
It was a nice, small class.  I got to sparrwith sensei and another black and there was a lot more detailed information as there were fewer people attending.  Moreover, I was introduced to the bo.  I made sensei happy by knowing that the weapon was an extension of my hand.  He took some time to talk about striking along the center and holding the bo properly.  He also had me promise to take him with me when I buy mine.
I got to show off my trophies to our two classes this week and sensei bragged up a storm on me   Too right, eh?  Now, my next step, seriously, is to get the rest of my classmates to tourney, too.  There's little or no tourney involvement.  I don't get it.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 27, 2006)

Last night's class was amazing!

Typically, I'm in a class with several many kids.  Lately, though, Sensei's split the Thursday class into kids and big kids   Last night, we had the addition of four karateka from a nearby Shotokan dojo.  2 adult BB, 1 junior BB and a young red.

As we were all adult, or mid to late teens in the class, we warmed up as we do normally; then paired off and worked on techniques.  This may not sound strange to many of you; but, with all the little ones, class tends to be mostly basics and kata with sparring.  Doing techniques was both strenuous and educational.  I felt I recieved a lot more from class than usual.

I was fortunate enough to pair with a Shotokan BB about my age and build and learned quite a bit as I got pummeled.  I am hoping this trend continues.  

The Sensei of the visiting school also invited me (us) to visit his dojo, which I will do.

Man, I hurt today.  That is good


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## twendkata71 (Mar 1, 2006)

First of all, Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan is not an off shoot of Shotokan,even though there are many elements of Shotokan that have been added over the years. It is an offshoot of the Koei kan style. Which Soke Madden Studied in Japan. Not Okinawa. During the 1950's and 60's. 
Also with so many style being part of the organization, these styles have been blended in to develop the style further. I have been in the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan system for 25 years. I have been a student of Soke Madden for 17 years.  Now, The original style that Ko Sutemi seiei kan comes,(Koeikan) comes from Okinawa originally. the Founder of Koei kan (Eizo Onishi) was a student of Kanken Toyama,from Okinawa. Soke Madden studied with Onishi directly and later with other masters in the Koeikan style. Then went his separate way for one reason or another in the late 60's  Yes,at Soke Maddens dojo they do focus a lot on sport competition,but not all of the time. And many of us teaching the style teach karatedo as the total package. (self defense,kata,competition,research,etc.). 
As far as Soke Maddens Jujitsu goes. His father was a merchant marine in the 20's and 30's and that is where while in Asian ports he studied Jujitsu from different teachers , Japanese and other. Before WWII broke out. He started teaching his son in 1942,along with boxing. Later on Soke Madden while in Japan studying karate do,was able to work on his Jujitsu training further and expand on what his father had started teaching him. 
If you have any doubts of his qualifications. Visist his dojo. All of his certifications in karatedo and jujitsu,up to 8th dan were international organizations and Japanese organizations. Later after many years of being the same rank. He was given his 9th and later 10th dans from a group of his master students as well as several international organizations. He is in his 70's and fits the guidelines. He also has a 6th dan in Judo from the USJA.   If you have anymore questions about the Ko Sutemi Seiei kan please feel free to ask.


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## twendkata71 (Mar 3, 2006)

*Oh, if anyone has any question of the legitimacy of Soke Maddens ranks. He was cerifited 8th dan by, the World Karate federation,(which he was at one time on the technical congress) , USA Karate Federation(Which he was the head of the USA team coaching staff., Pan American Union of karatedo Organizations.  He also has a masters ranking in Shoalin Kung fu. He is well know in the Traditional karate circles. personal friends and professional martial arts associates include, George Anderson(President of the USA Karate Federation), Kiyoshi Yamazaki(Japan Karate do Ryobukai), Teriyuki Mikami( International Shotokan Karate federation), Hidey Ochiai( Wasshin ryu),Ridgley Able (Shuri ryu),Katsumi Niikura (Ryokukai international). All of which are well respected masters in their own right. He spent several years studying in Japan.  As far as his student promoting him. It was more of a recognition of rank rather than a promotion. He is well known in the martial arts and karate do community for his contributions  to the arts in over 60 years of study and practice. :asian: *


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## twendkata71 (Mar 3, 2006)

More information for all interested.
Ko sutemi seiei kan uses the Pinan 1-5 kata, names instead of the Heian names because the style the Seiei kan comes from Koei kan used the Pinan names.  We have members from many different styles of karate, including Shorin ryu, Shoto kan, Goju ryu, Uechi ryu, Isshin ryu, Taekwondo as well as many eclectic systems. Soke Madden has incouraged us to learn from all styles of martial arts. That way we can be more well rounded as martial artists as welll as being leaders in the martial arts community. The involvement of so many styles in the organization also gives us a hugh catalog of kata and training methods to choose from. 
Soke Maddens daughter Shihan Heather Madden teaches Jujitsu and Aikido at his dojo, as welll as karate classes when Soke is not there.
Some other great master instructors in our organization are:
George Annarino 9th dan, Lynn Summers 9th dan, Brent Bias 8th dan, Paul Snider 6th dan, Traylon Smith 7th dan. Jim Grubb(not sure about his rank), Jim Cottrell 7th dan, Larry Zahand 7th dan, Chris Nicholas 7th dan. There are several more,but many names I cannot remember.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 10, 2006)

I went back for my first class after a 7 week break while I cleaned my wife out of my system.

I am sore, bruised, achey and have been pummeled by those older and younger than me.

It
Feels
Great
!


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## twendkata71 (Apr 15, 2006)

*It is good to hear you are back training. I started a new dojo. It is small. But, I have some dedicated students. I really enjoy teaching.*
*I love to compete as well. Even though I am not in as good of shape as I would like. I like concentrating on the deeper research of kata and technique.  I plan to go to the Bangkok cup in October. I am getting in shape for that.  It will be my first time in a long time of traveling.   Anyway. Good luck in your training.*


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 15, 2006)

Sensei is attending Bangkok, as well.  I cannot join them this year.  Maybe next?  Who knows?

Our dojo is small, too.  Many children; but, enough adults had joined, in my absence, to split classes 

It's a joy to be back.  

Where are you located, twendkata?


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## twendkata71 (Apr 22, 2006)

*I live in Fredericktown,Oh. I teach at a small dojo(Adults) in Columbus,Oh.    When I am not at work. I am usually teaching or studying. *


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## Kata kid (Apr 29, 2006)

As a member of Ko Sutemi Seiei Kan, I can answer any questions concerning how are oganization is ran.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 29, 2006)

Welcome to MT, kata kid.  I, too, am a member of Kosutemi Seieikan.  I study under Danny Phillips at Fairfield Beach.  Where are you?  Who do you train with?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

I moved on to the next two kata this last week, Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan.  I am absolutely astounded by the siplicity of Nidan after Shodan.  

Any input from you other Kosutemis as to why the complexity dropped so drastically between the two?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Apr 30, 2006)

Split From Main Kosutemi Seieikan Thread


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## twendkata71 (Jul 27, 2006)

*Well, Originally the Pinan nidan kata was taught before the pinan shodan. Even though the number is higher. I do know that When Funakoshi took karate to Japan he switched the kata.  Perhaps the names were mistakingly changed.  The fukyugata were added to many karate schools later. Originally created in 1940. So, they are no way near as old as the Pinan kata. Which were created in 1905 by Ankoh Itosu to help institute karate into the physical education dept. of the Okinawan primary school system. The Pinan/or Heian kata were derived from the Kusanku(kanku) kata.  There is also a theory that there is an older series of kata called the Channan. These kata have been mostly lost to time except for a few Okinawan teachers that have recently revived the kata. *
*Also, Most of the Ko Sutemi people only teach one of the Naihanchi kata,or none at all. When there are three.  Then most teachers start teaching Seisan as part of their intermediate kata. After that it is up to the teacher. *
*Personally I teach kata in a specific curriculum for each belt level.*
*Fukyugata I&II*
*Pinan I-V*
*Naihanchi I-III*
*wansu*
*seisan*
*sanchin*
*rohai*
*ananko*
*wankan*
*chinte*
*jion*
*jiin*
*bassai dai*
*gojushiho dai*
*gojushiho sho*
*bassai dai(WKF)*
*chinto(wkf)
empi
koryugoju yonpo
kanku dai
nijushiho
kanku sho
seiyunchin
seipai(WKF)
sochin
suparempei
gankaku
kosokun dai
kosokun sho
After shodan,really it is up to the black belt on what kata that person would like to learn for the next level.
The Kobudo kata that I teach are:
bo ichi
bojutsu shodan
sai ichi
saijutsu shodan(kyannosai)
nunchaku ichi
tokumine no kun  dai
tsuken no kon
tawada no sai
shushi no kon sho
sakagawa no kon
taira no bo
sai sanchi









			
				OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		


			I moved on to the next two kata this last week, Pinan Shodan and Pinan Nidan. I am absolutely astounded by the siplicity of Nidan after Shodan. 

Any input from you other Kosutemis as to why the complexity dropped so drastically between the two?
		
Click to expand...

*


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## twendkata71 (May 23, 2009)

*The the (America's number 1 fighting school) title was given because at one time, Seiei Kan had more black belts in the USA national karate teach, had more wins in both national and international karate competitions and we are know for our fighting ability. *




searcher said:


> I have found several website sthat contain information on this style.   So far thwe differences I se are in the names of the kata.   They seem to like to say that they are the nation's #1 fighting school, not really sure how they come up with that?   I will keep looking and see what I can come up with.


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## twendkata71 (May 24, 2009)

*Thats was USA National karate Team, sorry about the typo. Sometimes I get typing too fast and not paying attention to where my fingers are on the keyboard. Oops. *


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