# But...Couldn't You Really Hurt Them?



## MJS (Sep 5, 2010)

So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post.  The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered.  He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work.  He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.

He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her.  He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run."  Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.  

Her next reply to that, really shocked him.  She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty?  I mean, you could really hurt the guy."

So, this brings me to the question:  Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back?  You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.  

Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever.  We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS.  I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.


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## Chris Parker (Sep 5, 2010)

Simply, years of social conditioning. 

My Chief Instructor, quite a number of years ago, was attending a martial arts event with a lady who herself was involved in the martial arts industry (running a martial arts supply store, from memory), who started the night on the way to the event by asking if she could ask him some questions. He replied that of course she could, and she remained hesitant, stating that the questions may shock him. He answered that nothing she could ask about martial arts could shock him.... so she asked him "Why do you teach people to kill?" Needless to say, that's not exactly what my Instructor thought he was doing, and explained from his point of view exactly that!

I myself was brought up with my mother telling me things like "You can always talk your way out of a fight", and "If you have to fight, okay, but don't ever kick. It's not nice". Remarkably, when I asked if I could learn Ninjutsu (at the tender age of 10...) I was told unequivocally no, it was too violent! So I asked if I could learn Karate instead (with my thinking that it would be a good starting point, and I could learn Ninjutsu when I was older... which I did, starting at 16), and got an immediate yes!

Some things are just too firmly wired in to reason away from for some people.


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## WC_lun (Sep 5, 2010)

Most people through thier entire lives are told and trained not to hurt others.  It becomes ingrained.  I'm not sure it is a bad thing, but in cases where you need to overcome that training, then yeah it can become an issue.

Even in the military soldiers still hold onto that core belief of not hurting another.  Studies have shown that many soldiers will fire thier weapon high so as not to actually hit someone, even when they are in a real combat situation.

For a normal human being, really hurting another person is a traumatic experience.  It should be.  Even if that person had just attacked you, it should not be an enjoyable experience to injure them.  Unfortunately, many preditors rely on that to get away with doing the thing they do.  The delay in reaction that  a person's concience causes can be a huge hurdle in defending oneself.


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## Big Don (Sep 5, 2010)

Social conditioning for sure. I think hard contact sparring helps to desensitize us to hurting bad guys, I mean if we smack our friends and fellow students for fun, we're much less likely to care about hurting some stranger...


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## Master Dan (Sep 5, 2010)

MJS said:
			
		

> Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.


 
I got one worse for you in our larger town a senior driving a ice cream truck has some worthles young banger come up and take his own gun from him pistol wip him and steal his money in front of dads and children!!!
I went on the radio pissed off and said seniors have totally become targets of oportunity in this country and seniors need to have guns and shoot the punks. It is not going to get better untill people who commit violent crimes against inocent unarmed people get hurt or killed on the spot. 

I was sitting with a group of Korean masters we hosted and my master eating in a traditional korean soup kitchen very hot need towels and in walks a veitnemese gang to rob the place. 
I am sure the owner would have prefered just giving them the money compared to smashed furniture and very large windows. I am sure the insurance company would have prefered just giving the money to them but those ***** will never rob that place again maybe nobody else either. Worse yet they managed to rob a swatt van of all its weopons and amo but this cuaght them before they had a chance to do something awful.

I later found this out because I owned the same type truck and was having it alarmed to protect my tools and the company that did the work told me the cops never wanted it to reach the media. 

I have to admit the first thing I think of is about hurting the other person due to todays litigous or political issues untill I see a gun or knife or they are going to do life threatening harm to a defensless person then I have no concience


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, this brings me to the question:  Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back?  You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.





Chris Parker said:


> Simply, years of social conditioning.
> ...
> Some things are just too firmly wired in to reason away from for some people.




This is exactly why I teach my girls from the age of kindergarten that if someone is trying to hurt them, it is ok to hit back. And as soon as they are old enough to grasp the concept that some people are really nasty, I will teach them to be thorough. I also tell them regularly that fighting is only for self defense, and that if they have to defend themselves, we will not be angry but stand behind them come hell or high water.

Some time ago my oldest told me when I picked her up at the after school care that a boy in her class had hit my youngest daughter (who is just a toddler). And when I asked her what she did then, she told me that she had kicked the boy hard. I praised her and gave her a reward afterward.

One of the ladies who run the place heard me and while she didn't give me 'the look' I knew she disapproved. So I just told her that I knew this was not what we are supposed to say, but that this was how I was raising them when it comes to defending themselves.


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## K-man (Sep 5, 2010)

MJS said:


> Her next reply to that, really shocked him. She says, "Isn't that kind of dirty? I mean, you could really hurt the guy."
> 
> So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.
> 
> Now, yes, we have all heard the, "Just comply, do what they ask, and they wont hurt you" speech, which, IMO, is BS, but whatever. We've heard the stories of the badguy, sueing the victim for injuries, which IMO, is also BS. I just can't seem to understand why, if some punk is trying to attack a woman, rape her, etc., that the thought of hurting this guy, enough to hopefully get the hell out of there, is such a difficult thing.


Interesting to remember a recent post on what constitutes 'self defence'. If your response is 'reásonable' then legal action against you is unlikely to be successful. Respond using more force than necessary, as was espoused by some in the previous post, and be prepared to pay. :asian:


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## girlbug2 (Sep 5, 2010)

There was a time when women were raised never to fight under any circumstances. In my experience many are still raised that way, even though times have changed somewhat.

It's hard to overcome hundreds, maybe thousands of years of culture that tells females it's not ladylike to defend herself. It's also hard to overcome being raised with what I believe is a misinterpretation of the biblical admonishment to "turn the other cheek". But, it can be overcome! I am a living example of that.


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## seasoned (Sep 5, 2010)

Excellent thread MJS. Out side of the dojo I taught many women self defense 8 week courses. Inevitably there was always a portion of the class that got squeamish when it came to the first four techniques we covered. Ears, eyes, nose and throat strikes. They were more interested in avoidance then confrontation. The best students were the ones that had experienced some sort of encounter or near miss with danger. The others sadly were there to have some fun and do some karate. You could almost pick the potential victims. As other posters have mentioned, as kids we are taught to do no harm, big mistake.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 5, 2010)

MJS

do you teach MA or self defense for women? Have you encountered this personally?
thanks,  A


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## Slipper (Sep 5, 2010)

I agree that its due to social conditioning. I think it's two-part though. I believe that not only are females taught to be gentle and forgiving, etc, but also that there is still some degree (being taught) of males being superior to females. Perhaps it's not so prevalent now, but I know in our family that my father was definitely the head of the household. The most important child in our family was my brother. 

Religion teaches us that men are to be "over" women and women's virtues are based on gentleness, kindness, love, forgiveness, etc. I don't think it's surprising that it's difficult for women to be assertive against a male when raised in that type of environment. 

I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.


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## MA-Caver (Sep 5, 2010)

Slipper said:


> I agree that its due to social conditioning. I think it's two-part though. I believe that not only are females taught to be gentle and forgiving, etc, but also that there is still some degree (being taught) of males being superior to females. Perhaps it's not so prevalent now, but I know in our family that my father was definitely the head of the household. The most important child in our family was my brother.
> 
> Religion teaches us that men are to be "over" women and women's virtues are based on gentleness, kindness, love, forgiveness, etc. I don't think it's surprising that it's difficult for women to be assertive against a male when raised in that type of environment.
> 
> I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.


Indeed, we've been sociologically conditioned about the gender roles. Yet there is the change in thought about women becoming tougher and willing to fight back, partially from media fiction of tough as nails women (i.e. Ellen Ripley, Sarah Conner, Xena, The Bride (Kill-Bill), Foxy Brown, et al.) and more women are getting into MA or taking SD courses, as well as more women being given combative roles in the military.
Yet the stigma is still there and that damming thought of "wouldn't really want to hurt the guy" or the attacker could sue for damages and all of that B.S. Many of those I refer to them as socio-pacifists (pardon the pun). Some men are just as guilty of this sheeple thinking. 
Only time will tell when the change to more larger population of aggressive response type women will be around and the "weaker sex" becomes a myth.


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## Big Don (Sep 6, 2010)

Slipper said:


> I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.


Well, and to have a good time...


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 6, 2010)

Slipper said:


> I do think it can be overcome. I agree with Big Don that physical contact with the opposite sex would make it easier to defend oneself.



Sadly for the US, it is becoming suicide for teachers and care givers to even hug or kiss a kid if it needs comforting. And playing tag is a problem in many schools as well. If anything, people will get even more awkward about contact than they already are.

Luckily, we are not yet following that trend (not saying we don't have other problems though...). You know, before I got here on MT, I didn't even know that there were people in martial arts who would have problems with physical contact with the opposite sex. I didn't even consider it, just like one doesn't think about fish being afraid of water.

That said, my best friend is a grade school teacher and he knows that he is walking on egg-shells when it comes to dealing with girls because a reputation can be broken with 1 careless or vicious remark. But that's another topic imo.


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## xJOHNx (Sep 6, 2010)

I see where you are coming from. My best friend recently joined my Art and you see that he's less "vicious" about learning the techniques as well as looking weirded out when we discuss real world voilence. He's more relaxed, than again he never fought in his life.

Than on the other side I know some guys who would snap you in half in a new york minute.

Much depends on the character of the person and the intention/focus he trains with I think.

I consider myself a calm nice guy, but when someone attacks me, I'll have no mercy. That's the way I've been taught both on the streets, kindergarten as well as the dojo. But than again, so is my character.. So I don't know if it's the thoughtpatterns in me or just the way I trained all these years..


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## Slipper (Sep 6, 2010)

Bruno - actually, that could be two totally separate topics - one regarding the caution that men must take around younger kids and the topic about false accusations. Women hold a lot of power in that regard. 

I'm sure you've heard the following scenario - a mother/daughter become separated at a store. You see a lost little girl who is scared and looking for her mother. Do you get involved and talk to her? Do you walk her to customer service (which is usually near the exit of the store)? If the mother saw you walking with her daughter (towards an exit), would she assume you were there to help? 

But, as you say, another topic. 

I think physical contact is a big part of why females can be more hesitant in attacking. Guys are more prone to roughhouse, tackle, wrestle with each other. Ladies don't really bond in such a manner. I won't claim to know how much difference it makes between a guy hitting another guy as opposed to hitting a woman. I think a woman hitting anyone is going to be difficult because she hasn't 'touched' someone else as much. Maybe it's just me though.  I remember having a lot of difficulty getting used to simply being touched in class. It was very different. I'm used to it now, but in the beginning, I struggled with others just walking up to me and grabbing my arm, hand, neck, etc.


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2010)

aedrasteia said:


> MJS
> 
> do you teach MA or self defense for women? Have you encountered this personally?
> thanks, A


 
I've been teaching and training for quite a long time, so yes, I have encountered this type of situation in the past.  I haven't taught a womens SD class, however, I have had women inquire about various SD scenarios, etc.  

As I said, this thread was taken from another forum.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 7, 2010)

I've assisted in 2 womens self defense courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing.

I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.

I could probably have beaten them had I wanted to by using my training, experience and strength, but that was not the point. I was supposed to be a thug using only his size and weight. I never looked so thoroughly beaten up as the 2 times that happened.


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## MJS (Sep 7, 2010)

Rather than address every post seperate, I'll lump my reply in 1 post, and try to hit on a few points. 

I do agree that it is a social thing.  I was talking about this thread and the one that led up to it, with my wife, the other day.  It was funny, because we both agreed that growing up, we were taught not to hit others, be nice, and so forth.  Of course, on the flip side, dont be someones punching bag either. LOL.  

As for how much force to use...I agree, that you need to assess things on a case by case basis.  For me to use my keys to poke someones eye, may be frowned upon, due to my height, weight, martial arts background, in other words, didn't I have any other options, vs. a smaller female, not as strong, etc.  Be that as it may, would I do that?  Absolutely, if my life was on the line.  Lets see...his eye, my life....I'll deal with the other stuff later on.  

I've encountered this situation in class as well.  I've had parents and students alike, cringe at some of this stuff.  My reply was simple:  as martial artists, we need to be able to vary our level of defense.  Sorry, but a teenage girl, is probably going to stand a better chance of survival, by kicking the guy, who's trying to pull her into his car, in the balls, rather than trying to put a wrist lock on him.  

I agree that not every 'attack' is going to require us to take drastic measures, but the fact remains, the martial arts involve contact and they involve dirty tactics.  If someone is that grossed out or offended by that, then IMHO, maybe the martial arts are not for them.  

As far as the story that I started this thread off with....sure, throwing something at the person, to serve as a distraction, is a great idea, but think about it.  You did nothing to hurt the guy or even remotely stop him.  You just threw away, literally, the keys to your car.  Now you're stuck.  

A few people mentioned womens SD classes.  I have mixed feelings on those.  I think they're good, because they expose women to some basic SD, but the downside of that is, a) once they leave the class, theres a good chance they'll no longer practice what was taught, and b) I've seen some WSD classes in which some complicated stuff was being taught.  Things such as locks.  Yes, they are effective, but I'll refer back to A.  An 8 week class, IMO, isn't enough time to effectively teach someone how to do finger and wrist locks.  Follow the K.I.S.S. principle.  Keep It Short and Simple.  Were I to teach a WSD class, I would take a few of the most common attacks that they'd be most likely to face, show some simple techs., and have them drill the hell out of them, over and over and over, from various situations.  My goal wouldn't be to overload them in that 8 weeks, with 1,001 SD techs., but instead show them a few solid things, and have them work those....repeatedly.  Boring?  It may appear to be on the surface, but I'd be willing to bet by the end of those 8 weeks, their confidence level would have gone up a few notches.


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## Master Dan (Sep 7, 2010)

[
One of the ladies who run the place heard me and while she didn't give me 'the look' I knew she disapproved. So I just told her that I knew this was not what we are supposed to say, but that this was how I was raising them when it comes to defending themselves.[/quote]

Darn I wanted to print your proverb or prayer but it did not come up on the quote. Its great I am going to do it in Caligraphy and hang it on the wall. Thanks for your posting it is right on!!!!!!!!!!!!!

*&#12480;&#12531;&#24107; *
*Master Dan Scholten*

http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/


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## Master Dan (Sep 7, 2010)

[*quote=Bruno@MT;1321489]I've assisted in 2 womens self defense* *courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing*.

*I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.*
Master Dan:
I have been teaching wemen's self defense for over 25 years perfecting it each year into a real course that can be used. First Self Defense is very complex and has many mental issues. I teach now in an area where women are prey and abused and I use realistic methods same for all sexes but one is the use of a foam club to simulate being hit and I was shocked at reactions from some of the women totally freaked out cringing screaming cowering if you even raised your hand or came at them let alone raise a club to hit them? This has give me a new skill because I now after working with behavior health professionals can spot and adult or child that has been abused very quickly and taylor the teach to help them. I soon realized these were women who had been beaten and abused from childhood to adulthood a common practice here even raped by thier own fathers.

*Self defense first objective is to survive not win: *The first mental aspect to be taught to the weak and vulnerable is that they must develope enough self worth to believe they are worthy and have the right!!! to defend themselves. No person can learn any techique that will do them any good if they close there eyes or cringe better to run if possible.

We start first with prevention the art of fighting with out fighting. How to increase your 100% of not being attacked, body language, local trip planning such as shopping or other activities, travel outside your area prevention planing. Peopel think that is being perinoid? why do we wear seat belts? because the statistics are that you have a % of risk of being in an accident and that risk % increase directly proportional to the area and activity. Violence is the same , unfortunately since the dramatic increase in violence we see in the media we have been condition to believe it is not real so a common personal reaction to that is to freeze and not believe it could be happening to us!!!!

From that point we then go into very basic moves which are.
1.   Break away when help is close.
2.   Disable disarm when help is reachable with in minutes.
3.   Maime or Kill because there will be no help and your life is in depordy.

After this they are given simple material that they as a group can get together and practice and are taught how to practice in thier minds so it will become a tool they can use.

On the point 3 above most self defense courses fail to teach survival? I mean that each person must judge thier specific circumstances. If you are being raped solely for that purpose and by fighting back you might be killed better to be raped and live and learn how to fight back in court so they cannot hurt somone else. But if you are being transported to another area away form people your % of comming back is zero% know that and determine to die fighting rather than be led to slaughter!!!! The odds of you surviving by fighting for your life at that point is better than 50% much better than 0% if you allow yourself to be transported. These are FBI and Law Enforcement stats.

Last point nothing bothers me more that how most teach groin kicks? they are wrong and most men expect it and can survive it and after the attempt will truly want to kill or hurt you.
*GROIN KICKS:*
The proper way is using both hands grabbing the head or shoulders from the front or behind dosn't matter the issue is not using the foot but all of the center part of the shin between knee and ankle lifting the entire Scrotim and flattening the balls. You should be lifting them off the ground you hit them so hard and it is simple with balance. This guy will likely have to go to the hospital or may die!!

*Close in Survival :* anyone can pop an eye ball out it is so easy if taught right. It is not life threatening and the eye ball can be put back in later but I can tell you from experience it ends the fight right there.

Here he is holding one of his eyes on one hand and looking in two directions he just wants to find a doctor. Obviously this is a law suite if its just some guy but if you need to save your self do that first let attorneys sort it out at least your alive.
*&#12480;&#12531;&#24107; *
*Master Dan Scholten*

http://nometaekwondoacademy.yolasite.com/


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 7, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.
> 
> He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.
> 
> ...


 
I don&#8217;t want to derail this post but this is similar to something I experienced at a mini Qinna seminar given by Yang Jwing Ming.

He applied a lock and the guy fell to his knees and a woman asked 

&#8220;So what do you do with him after you lock him?&#8221;

Dr Yang responded &#8220;You kill him&#8221;

She was shocked and thought that was just wrong 

Dr Yang explained that this stuff was designed for war and you did not want to just leave the guy laying there to kill you as you walked by. But if you do not want to kill him you can kick him or punch him or do whatever you want. She also thought that was wrong since the guy was already locked, on his knees and would likely just give up at that point.

Dr Yang stopped talking to her and moved on to the next part of the lesson and she left


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## Deaf Smith (Sep 7, 2010)

> So, this brings me to the question: Why is it that when someone is trying to cause you serious bodily harm, that you suddenly become compasionate towards them, and dont want to fight back? You're suddenly concerned that what you do to them may hurt them.


 
Who is this 'we' Kemosabe? For you see I lean toward Jack Bauer&#8217;s point of view.

But as a few here have pointed out, yes 'social conditioning' is why. The Walt Disney/Three's Company/Mayberry RFD crowd have made this possible. The catch is the only ones being 'conditioned' are the people who are nice anyway and not a threat.

But those that live in the rough places are not conditioned to be nice anyway. And that gives them an advantage on the street. 

And that is why the Visigoths were able to get to Rome&#8217;s gates.


Deaf


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## General_Tso (Sep 8, 2010)

I think that most good people, at their core are, well, good people. If you are not already out there mugging, stealing, raping, killing,etc. odds are you are a decent human being. 

I dont think it's so much social conditioning, as it is being a human being. Being human should include the mentality of trying to help your fellow man, not hurt them. This could get very philosophical, but I think that's it in a nutshell. Training in a martial art is a tool to help you break down your preconcieved barriers to not hurt someone, when you need to. It's courage, conditioning and reaction training to get past the "I dont want to hurt someone". If you have time to think, you better have at least a fleeting thought of "Oh man, I really dont want to kill anyone", if you dont, you should take a look at buddhism. But your training will make you react, not think when necessary. The even stronger, primal instinct is one of self-preservation. And if you cannot break through the barrier of "not wanting to hurt someone else", this primal instinct of survival will kick in and you will become a bit less human, to do whatever is necessary to protect your life, or the lives of your loved ones. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> [*quote=Bruno@MT;1321489]I've assisted in 2 womens self defense* *courses, and I have seen the same thing. Many ladies seem to be afraid to inflict physical pain. Our goal was to get them over that, and I was the 'bad guy' who attacked them during class so I have encountered this very thing*.
> 
> *I also witnessed firsthand what happens if a woman suddenly breaks through that mental barrier (possibly projecting a past experience at my persona). I had to make a real effort to not get injured because they came at me like wild furies, hitting, kicking and scratching me as if to rip me to pieces. At that point they didn't stop anymore.*
> Master Dan:
> ...


 
While I agree with alot of what you're saying, I'd like to comment on just one thing.  When you were talking about the groin kicks.  It would seem to me, that if someone was that close, the use of the knee would be a better option.  If the defender is going to go thru the process of grabbing the head or shoulders, then show them the most effective way to grab, and start blasting away with knees.  Of course, I wouldn't limit the groin as my only target.


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## MJS (Sep 8, 2010)

Deaf Smith said:


> Who is this 'we' Kemosabe?




We= Anyone that gets attacked or enrolls in a SD program, and cringes, freaks out, or flat out refuses to do the 'dirty fighting' stuff, because it'll hurt the other person.


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## zDom (Sep 8, 2010)

The night I got my jaw shattered (and probably would have been beaten to death, had someone not come out of the bar and suggested they stop before they kill me),

I had put one of the three attackers down and stopped because I was afraid I had hurt him too badly. The other two helped him up while I watched and they rushed me, held me down, and beat me with a tire iron.



I don't believe in a "no mercy" mindset. There is certainly room for mercy once the threat is clearly ended.


What I believe in is, I _*MUST continue to do violence to my attackers until I am are SURE the threat is ENDED*._

If the violence is simply a mean look that is an outstanding outcome. If one of them dies to ensure you live, so be it.

It isn't just about defending myself. I feel that it is a duty to society to discourage violent people from imposing their will on peaceful members of society.

If I let them do successful violence to me or my family or friends (or even innocent strangers, under the right circumstances), chances are they will do it again to ANOTHER peaceful member of society.

If I prevent them from doing violence to me, chances are it will discourage them from doing it again in the future.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 8, 2010)

I feel Personally (so I don't put this on anyone else) if a violent criminal comes across me it is a duty to destroy him to the furthist extint I can get away with under the law.

 If I just give him my money and he walks on, he will do this again and probably to someone who has not studied the arts for years or without any real fighting exp. I will be passing the problem down to someone weaker than myself. I dont want some person dead because I let the scumbag slip out of my killbox.

 I tell my kids of my admoration for the rattlesnake.

 For the most part, Rattlesnaky just wants to be left alone to hunt vermin, sit in the sun and mate when it's time. he is not looking to bite people for the fun of it.

 He see's you coming and he shakes his rattle and if you are smart you walk away and no one gets hurt.
 You keep coming or worse try to pick up Rattlesnaky he bites you.

 At that point you deserve what you got, he warned you, you did not heed it so your death is on your head not his.

 I don't mess with people, I try to be as civil as I can with everyone I meet but if I hurt, maim or kill you you were asking for it because you had to have laid your hands on or threatend me or mine.

 If you punch me, I am out to break that limb, I am out to take you out of the fight entirly. I am not out to kill you but if in the engagement you slip and beat your head on the ground , resulting in death then it's still your fault as it would not have happend if you just let me be.

 The answer is in nature, nature is full of creatures who kill those who try to harm them or threaten them.


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## Deaf Smith (Sep 8, 2010)

Have you guys ever seen the show, 'My Name is Trinity'?

Well in it a bunch of bandits harass pacifistic Mormons, but with Trinity and his brother, Bambino, there helping them.

The bandit chief lines up all the men and then slaps them in the face, one by one. Each Mormon accepts the slap and does not retaliate until they get to Bambino. Each time the bandit slaps Bambino, Bambino hits him back, and each time he is slapped he hits back HARDER. It finally dawns on the bandit someone here would actually fight back and they leave.

I do believe in being peaceful (55 years so far without any real fights) but I also believe strength, and the willingness to use it, does matter.

Deaf


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## Master Dan (Sep 8, 2010)

MJS said:


> While I agree with alot of what you're saying, I'd like to comment on just one thing. When you were talking about the groin kicks. It would seem to me, that if someone was that close, the use of the knee would be a better option. If the defender is going to go thru the process of grabbing the head or shoulders, then show them the most effective way to grab, and start blasting away with knees. Of course, I wouldn't limit the groin as my only target.


 
*First the knee is also expected and the grabing happens slightly after the shin kick is being done and nooooo  the knee dose not have the same vertical lift to spread the scrotim and flatten the balls. The knee varies greatly in its angle of strike and and it requires more skill. The shin/leg strike does start farther away. The person also needs to learn various ways to set it up depending on position and other factors. *

*No person I don't care one lesson or 8 is going to be able to out fight anyone under fight or flight stress but Prevention and survival education can first keep them out of trouble and increase their chances of living.*


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## Ken Morgan (Sep 8, 2010)

We don't even beat around the bush in iaido or kenjitsu, you walk up to your opponant and you kill them. Period. End of story. Its a ********** sword after all.


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## teekin (Sep 10, 2010)

My mothers gift to me was music and unconditional love. When I lived with her, we lived in communes or with bands or with eccentric European rellatives. Where ever I lived and with whomever I lived I was indulged, cherished and loved.
 My fathers gift to me was toughness and an understanding of how the real world worked. An iron will and the mental tenacity of a DC9 Cat. I played both Ringette and Hockey on winning teams with reputations for being rough and physical. Because I was allmost allways the smallest player I was also the most lethal. I had no problem using my skate blades to chop out yours, tripping with my stick, elbowing in the solar plexus, chopping at ankles or an all out fight. In my world there is no such thing as "fair" in a fight. Anything goes till someone is unconcoius or in an Ambulance. That is a "fight". Anything else is sparring. An Odd gift but usefull.

Lori


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 10, 2010)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> If you punch me, I am out to break that limb, I am out to take you out of the fight entirly. I am not out to kill you but if in the engagement you slip and beat your head on the ground , resulting in death then it's still your fault as it would not have happend if you just let me be.



Stellar advice.... if you want to go to jail.
You may think it is not your fault, morally, but realistically there is a good chance that you will go to jail for manslaughter if the other person ends up dead.

Your opinion does not matter in a court of law. And if you teach this to other people who don't know better, then you do them a disservice.
You do not live in your idealized world. You live in the real world where there are tons of law and case law and a complex judicial system.

Depending on the circumstance, you may or may not get into trouble. You had better hope that there were eyewitnesses to what happened, and you had better pray that their story absolves you from the blame. Because if they say something like _'that one guy shoved the other guy, and then the other guy slammed his head into the concrete'_ or if they simply arrived and saw you standing over the body... then you will be very sorry indeed.


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## MJS (Sep 11, 2010)

Master Dan said:


> *First the knee is also expected and the grabing happens slightly after the shin kick is being done and nooooo the knee dose not have the same vertical lift to spread the scrotim and flatten the balls. The knee varies greatly in its angle of strike and and it requires more skill. The shin/leg strike does start farther away. The person also needs to learn various ways to set it up depending on position and other factors. *
> 
> *No person I don't care one lesson or 8 is going to be able to out fight anyone under fight or flight stress but Prevention and survival education can first keep them out of trouble and increase their chances of living.*


 
Here is what you said:

*"GROIN KICKS:
*The proper way is using both hands grabbing the head or shoulders from the front or behind dosn't matter the issue is not using the foot but all of the center part of the shin between knee and ankle lifting the entire Scrotim and flattening the balls. You should be lifting them off the ground you hit them so hard and it is simple with balance. This guy will likely have to go to the hospital or may die!!"

What you just said in this post, isn't the impression that I got from what you're saying now.  As for the knee taking more skill....not sure how that is, due to the fact that its a pretty simple movement.  Note, that I also said that there are other targets, aside from the groin.  Of course, I also wouldn't discount the knee to the groin.  I've done it, and its had wonderful results.   If you're in clinching range, you have to use tools for that range.  The situation and target availibility will dictate what we can/can't do.  

As for your last part....you're preaching to the choir dude. LOL.  My point was simple....teach the women simple, effective easy to do things.  Dont recall saying that they had to stand there, trading shots.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 11, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Stellar advice.... if you want to go to jail.
> You may think it is not your fault, morally, but realistically there is a good chance that you will go to jail for manslaughter if the other person ends up dead.
> 
> Your opinion does not matter in a court of law. And if you teach this to other people who don't know better, then you do them a disservice.
> ...


 
 My attitude towards such situations have kept me out of the Hospital or worse. It is within the law here to break an offending limb if they are still engaging you and if he does slip and die, this is a good state to have that happen in.

 A good friend and student used an icescrapper in self defense in Alexandria about 10 years ago, hitting his assailant in the left eye, blinding him in that eye for life.

 My buddy got off scottfree, never charged buit the scumbag was for his crime and got to go to jail blind in one eye (I wonder what his fellow inmates used him for?).

 Most area's of Virginia are very conserrvitive minded about criminals and no one cares if they get hurt or dead in the commishion of their crimes, no one who matters that is.

 I had a situation 2 months ago, In the altercation I bit him in the face and put my finger in his eye to roll his head back and butted him with my head in his temple. You know what the cops did about it?

 They came , they saw, they put it down as mutual combatants as he was in my yard and a few of them laughed about how stupid it was for him to physically engage a man at home and one was tickled that he messed with a self defense instructor.

 And if an assailant is killed, you say nothing to the cops, you talk to your lawyer. When you call 911, you ask for all emergency services, tell them someone is hurt and then SHUT YOUR MOUTH.


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## Em MacIntosh (Sep 15, 2010)

As far as excessive force is concerned, I know I'm not alone when it comes to not having much ability to make a choice about what I'm going to do or how I'm going to do it in a life and death situation (which I consider them all to be).  During the adrenaline dump my priority is to stop my knees from shaking and I rely on muscle memory to defend myself.  In my experience there's very little respite for clarity to make any choices or conscious thought so running the risk of prosecution is almost always worth it unless you have the oportunity to choose a less lethal method.  If you have the mental capacity to do so in the tussle or have the attacker immobilized, great, you get a choice.


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## teekin (Sep 15, 2010)

Em MacIntosh said:


> As far as excessive force is concerned, I know I'm not alone when it comes to not having much ability to make a choice about what I'm going to do or how I'm going to do it in a life and death situation (which I consider them all to be). During the adrenaline dump my priority is to stop my knees from shaking and I rely on muscle memory to defend myself.* In my experience there's very little respite for clarity to make any choices or conscious thought* so running the risk of prosecution is almost always worth it unless you have the oportunity to choose a less lethal method. If you have the mental capacity to do so in the tussle or have the attacker immobilized, great, you get a choice.


 
Hmmmmmmm. I found that in those particular times when the poo really hits the fan, ( examples; during a dog attack, before and during being hit just below the hips into the boards from an oblique angle, waking up during `the accident`) , time slowed down and I was able to see more what was going to happen and I had More time to make choose what I wanted to do. In the case of the dog attack I removed my hands from the dogs mouth and jammed my forearm into his mouth. ( less tendon damage in my teenage mind and he couldn`t bite my puppy if he was biting me, rolled in a ball and didn`t get my neck snapped from an illegal hit, surrvived only slightly crazy from accident. ) These were all times when according to my brain I was in danger for my life. Thoughts.

lori


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## bribrius (Sep 15, 2010)

it is a fine line between self defense and being pissed off they attacked you.

Don't escalate a situation. Avoid them.

i say when they are crawling away or laying on the ground, and you find yourself going after them, You are now preventing THEM from ending the situation.

you could kill them. i dont care who you are. Anyone can kill anyone. They could kill you too. I don't care who you are.

Never underestimate someone or a situation. 

i prefer not to enter any situation in which life is put in jeopardy. Mine or theirs.

Tough guys or girls don't exist. Just alive or dead ones.

tazer, mace, firearm. All wonderful christmas presents.

peace


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## fighter_x (Sep 15, 2010)

I think that the pitfalls of the social conditioning of "do no harm" is grossly overlooked in many schools. Mindset is a dividing line between standardized martial arts dojo training and self defense. If you intend to ingrain what you are taught to use within your self defense repertoire, then you have to be comfortable in the fact that you intend to injure and escape. In some instances there may be mere moments to react, and I for one, wouldn't want my brain muddled with thoughts of "wait, will I get sued", or "gee, that might hurt him". I hope I would focus on the task at hand which is my survival, and using the means, whatever they be, to insure it. 
54b2e298-d945-4ef4-8095-50bb7a9e0f2b
1.03.01


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## MJS (Sep 15, 2010)

fighter_x said:


> I think that the pitfalls of the social conditioning of "do no harm" is grossly overlooked in many schools. Mindset is a dividing line between standardized martial arts dojo training and self defense. If you intend to ingrain what you are taught to use within your self defense repertoire, then you have to be comfortable in the fact that you intend to injure and escape. In some instances there may be mere moments to react, and I for one, wouldn't want my brain muddled with thoughts of "wait, will I get sued", or "gee, that might hurt him". I hope I would focus on the task at hand which is my survival, and using the means, whatever they be, to insure it.
> 54b2e298-d945-4ef4-8095-50bb7a9e0f2b
> 1.03.01


 
My thoughts exactly.  I understand that we live in a very sue happy world and it seems that many people are thinking about that stuff, rather than their well being.  Now, I'm not saying that its not important to be aware of what you're doing, but when someone is trying to rob my wife and I, the last thing I'm going to worry about at that moment is whether or not I should protect the well being of me and my family.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 16, 2010)

Look you do need to be aware of the law and self defense in your area, it is something you need to put some study into.

 We have access to a lawyer who specialises in self defense and the law, we have had him in for a seminar on the subject.

 We will show a techniquer and if it is one that could set up legal trou8ble, we tell you but you still learn it.

 We teach that you cant continuly stomp on someone when you have them down, unless they are still trying to hurt you or pull you down with them, if they are just guarding their head and trying to get away, you have to stop do to the law.

 If you take a robbers gun, you can't shot him unless he counter attacks you or trys to grab the weapon.

 All this said legality can't be your first concern in a violent assult because some of what some laws say are derctly antagonistic with survival.

 I live in a state that slants towards the victum, I could never live in a place that was otherwise. I know many of you do so legality takes a bgger place with you on this subject.

 Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.

 She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger.

 Any State like that deserves a revolution as a basic, human right is being denied good people to the advantage of the scumbags who victumize and the politicol scumbags who seek to control us.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post. The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered. He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work. He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.
> 
> He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her. He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run." Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.
> 
> ...


 
That's why sheep are usually victims who aren't capable of harming others except by accident.

It's job security for me, though, because when push comes to shove, they rely on folks like me to do the dirty work of dealing with the animals......and I don't mind a bit dealing with the animals.


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## WC_lun (Sep 17, 2010)

I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation.  It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had.  The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible.  Period.  If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens.  To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 17, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation. It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had. The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible. Period. If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens. To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.


 
The difference you perceive is one of worldview. My job isn't to retreat from violence. My job is to overcome violence and subdue a violent individual using whatever level of greater violence is necessary. The degree of which the subject is harmed is entirely up to him, and is reflected in his resistance to my attempt to control him, up to and including his death. I don't rationalize what happens to him as my fault, as it is entirely his fault. All he has to do is quit fighting, quit resisting, and comply.

What seems to be true to you is actually the dichotomy between the 'survive at any cost' self defense folks, and the 'overcome at any cost' self defense folks. I'm firmly in the latter camp of dominate and control, with greater violence, because it is a necessity of the job.


That's not really the point here, however..........the point is the fact that a lack of willingness to harm another person is a huge impediment to self-defense.  Simple willingness to engage in aggressive violence, under the right conditions, is a huge ADVANTAGE.  Simply relying on the Nike method will work, the majority of the time, but it's hugely limiting, and lacks a Plan B when your run out of space.  There are times with aggression will save you where caution will not.


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## aedrasteia (Sep 17, 2010)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> _Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.
> 
> She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger._
> 
> ...


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## MJS (Sep 17, 2010)

WC_lun said:


> I don't mean this in an antagonistic way, but I see threads like this and always wonder how many people who offer advice have ever been in a true slef-defense situation. It seems generally the more violent the advice is, the less real world experience has been had. The first job of self-defense is to get out of the situation taking the least amount of damage as possible. Period. If the attacker gets hurt in the process that sometimes happens. To focus on what harm you are going to do to them instead of getting your butt out of the sitauation in one piece is not realistic and as often as not will lead to you getting hurt, in my opinion.


 
Well, what you said is pretty much a no brainer.  Of course the main goal is to try to get away, without having to fight.  However, in reality, thats not always the case.  There is only so much talking that you can do, and there are times when there is no time to talk.  

The point of this thread, which as I said, I got from another forum, was to show the mindset of people.  IMO, people who are concerned with their safety, and train to be capable of defending themselves, need to be capable of adjusting their response to whats happening.  This can range from verbal defusing to killing, and everything in between.  

I've been in situations many times.  I spent time working in Corrections, where I had to deal with violent people every day, people who would not think twice about taking a swing at me.  

What amazes me, is the people who train, but are terrified of actually going thru the process of defending themselves.  Why train then?


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## WC_lun (Sep 18, 2010)

Those in LEO are a special circumstance.  They are doing more than just self-defense.  There is a difference between the every day joe on the street just trying to save his backside and the LEO who must control some animal in the safest manner they can.  I do have a bit of experience with this as well.

You guys are right in to properly be able to defend oneself you must be willing to do violence and you must do it with little or no hesitation.  Hesitation can get you hurt.

Not everyone trains for the same reasons.  In my experience, most martial arts practitioners do not train for realistic self defense.  They usually train for a sport or physical benefits.  The self defense part is almost an afterthought.  How often have you heard someone say they train for this or that and oh yeah, it can also be used as defense?  While there is nothing wrong with any reason for training, I think some people are fooling themselves about the actual defense effectiveness of what they train in.  Knowing the difference between the fantasy of self defense and the reality is a HUGE step in keeping yourself safe.


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## BloodMoney (Sep 18, 2010)

The major hurdle ive found in teaching womens self defense is the mindset.

Its not hard to get a guy into an aggressive mindset, even the timid can turn nasty quickly, I guess (to make a generalized and perhaps sexist comment) guys are pretty much hardwired for violence.

Women on the other hand often lack the mindset to really hurt someone (not sure if thats a bad thing most of the time lol). I too have come across "wow I would never do that to someone thats horrible" when showing particularly dirty street techniques. My answer is "well im sure hell just politely cease raping you as thats pretty horrible, hell just see what hes doing is wrong and stop". Ive had a few weird looks, but the reality is if you dont have a survival instinct, the mindset to live no matter what, no do whatever it takes to not be raped (even if it means maiming or killing) then you will be a victim and not a survivor.

A senior Chun instructor from Aussie back in the day taught a few would be rapists a lesson theyll never forget. One had a little sleep in hospital for a few days and the other needed surgery to remove his testicles from his pelvic cavity or whatever its called (im not exaggerating). When asked in the newspaper about it she very flatly stated she attacked them as viciously as she could, they were trying to rape or beat her, so yeah they got what was coming to them. I wish I could find that news clipping (think my master has it) because I would love to copy it and then get a copy of a horrible story from that week involving a murder or rape and show both to prospective students and say "which one do you want to be, the girl on the left or girl on the right?"....


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## aedrasteia (Sep 18, 2010)

BloodMoney wrote:

""_Its not hard to get a guy into an aggressive mindset, even the timid can  turn nasty quickly, I guess (to make a generalized and perhaps sexist  comment) guys are pretty much hardwired for violence.

Women on the other hand often lack the mindset to really hurt someone  (not sure if thats a bad thing most of the time lol). I too have come  across "wow I would never do that to someone thats horrible" when  showing particularly dirty street techniques. My answer is "well im sure  hell just politely cease raping you as thats pretty horrible, hell just  see what hes doing is wrong and stop". Ive had a few weird looks, but  the reality is if you dont have a survival instinct, the mindset to live  no matter what, no do whatever it takes to not be raped (even if it  means maiming or killing) then you will be a victim and not a survivor."_ 

How's that working out for you, in teaching womens self defense? 

thanks, A


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## l_uk3y (Sep 19, 2010)

As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)

As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.


Luke


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## Andrew Green (Sep 19, 2010)

l_uk3y said:


> As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)
> 
> As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.
> 
> ...



You're cheating them out of their training, it's got nothing to do with blood lust.

But if they are never being pressured, they will never learn to deal with coming under pressure, and that is one of the most valuable lessons to be learned.

If you want to self-control, and to get rid of blood lust,  Spar hard.  When you can stay calm and react intelligently and strategically with someone trying (and succeeding) to punch you in the face, then you are a martial artist IMO.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 19, 2010)

l_uk3y said:


> As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)
> 
> As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.
> 
> ...


 
I don't like hurting my training partners, either, I tend to go easy on them so as not to hurt them (though they would probably say differently) but I do try to pressure them as much as they can handle.........avoiding hurting your training partners and also pressuring them properly aren't mutually exclusive.

That has never limited me in the street, however, as I tend to have no problem hurting folks who earned it.........again, the issue is one of mindset.  In the street it's about harnessing fear and anger and turning it in to action, something you don't quite experience the same way in training most of the time.


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## MJS (Sep 19, 2010)

l_uk3y said:


> As an point to add to this topic. I myself find that when training I try to avoid hurting my training partner (I.e get softer then necessary) and I know its in my head and is holding me back from developing further. I've always been a fairly gentle type of person with no lust for blood or direct confrontation. (A good thing in most cases)
> 
> As part of this topic. Does anyone have any good desensitization techniques or training tips to help switch the mindset into one that allows them to perform without holding back.
> 
> ...


 
The martial arts are a contact activity...period.  IMO, if someone can't handle contact, then the arts are not for them.  I'm not saying that we should be driving to the ER after every class, but by not having any contact, is doing more harm than good.  There have been times when I've been working with those people, and I've had to tell them...repeatedly, that when they're going to choke me, to actually put their hands on my neck and squeeze, rather than giving me a shoulder massage. LOL.


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## fighter_x (Sep 19, 2010)

A certain amount of force application is paramount for proper training. One of the biggest obstacles I faced when starting out in martial arts some 30 years ago was a major confidence problem. Definitely not going to name styles or teachers, but the early training I received did nothing to help with my confidence. While I was very fast to catch on, and knew this was what I wanted to do with myself, completely compliant opponents,  point sparring, and blind mimicking did nothing for my confidence. I had several years of training under my belt by the time I hit high school, but would often back down or allow myself to be bullied for fear of getting hurt. It wasn't until I joined the military, that I started learning the proper lessons, and received the proper training.

I think the military, and Kyokushin Karate did more for my confidence than all earlier attempts at training. While i would eventually evolve into other areas of self defense, it was the physicality of the military and Kyokushin's hard sparring ideology that gave me the courage to fight.

The simple fact is that you cannot become a competent fighter without fighting. Nothing explains why you do a certain technique better than feeling the results of your mistakes physically. Pain instructs, but certainly while training certain precautions and rules should apply.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 20, 2010)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> Sorry, I wont live anywhere where a mother takes her kids into the basement because of an intruder. The intruder follows them down there, she grabs her husband's hunting rifle and warns the attacker to go away. He does not so she shoots him.
> 
> She gets charged because there was a window in the basement, so she did not fully follow her responsability to flee in the face of danger.



Link please. Because I don't believe it.
This sounds like one of those stories that happened to a friend of a friend, but turn out to be urban legends.

IF you can provide a link, even then I am willing to bet there is more to the story than your summary. Last time something like this was discussed, one of our US LEOs pointed out that even states without castle doctrine have equivalent case law and that a real threat can be answered with deadly force without being required to flee your home.

So...

Links or it didn't happen.


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## First Action (Sep 20, 2010)

yeah ive heard of these stories to. Apparently one of the things (particularly women) have a problem with is that they are afraid of hurting the attacker. Personally, I think if someone is attacking you... stab the ****er in the eye with your key then worry about everything else later.... at least you';ll be alive to worry about it.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 20, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Link please. Because I don't believe it.
> This sounds like one of those stories that happened to a friend of a friend, but turn out to be urban legends.
> 
> IF you can provide a link, even then I am willing to bet there is more to the story than your summary. Last time something like this was discussed, one of our US LEOs pointed out that even states without castle doctrine have equivalent case law and that a real threat can be answered with deadly force without being required to flee your home.
> ...


 
I believe it happend near Boston, about 2 or 3 years ago, I think Andy M posted it hear or on another site we frequent.

 Not going to do a long search for you.


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## Slipper (Sep 20, 2010)

Perhaps Roberta Shaffer case? It wasn't an intruder however, but her fiancee. So, perhaps not?

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/367/367mass508.html


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## Blade96 (Sep 20, 2010)

MJS said:


> So, I'm surfing the forums the other day, and came across this post.  The person, who is a martial artist, was talking about something that he encountered.  He was telling a story about how a female was mugged in the area in which they park their cars, I assume in the area in which they all work.  He's talking with a female co-worker, who was nervous about walking to her car.
> 
> He said he was giving her some advice, ie: be aware, walk with keys in hand, and to use the keys, should someone attempt to mug her.  He said her response to this was, "Well, I suppose I could throw the keys at his face and run."  Needless to say, he was shocked at this reply, and told her that she may be better off using the keys to strike, towards the face.
> 
> ...



Cause us girls are supposed to be sugar and spice and everything nice.

also i was in a situation where i had to use force to get away from the guy and my mind set is, Do whatever is necessary, your aim isnt to hurt someone, its to get away and stay alive and stay safe. If you have to hurt them do it. But only if you have to. and btw. I'm a girl.


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## Carol (Sep 20, 2010)

Gaius Julius Caesar said:


> I believe it happend near Boston, about 2 or 3 years ago, I think Andy M posted it hear or on another site we frequent.
> 
> Not going to do a long search for you.



That case wasn't 2 or 3 years ago, it was nearly 40 years ago.  

The case was the Commonwealth vs. Roberta Shaffer. The incident happened in 1972 and went before Superior court in 1975.    As documented in appellate testimony, the basement had a "door leading outside, which was open when police arrived".  Not a high basement window out of reach.

http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/367/367mass508.html
http://masscases.com/cases/app/2/2massappct658.html

Ms.  Schaffer received a gubernatorial pardon, and it was that incident which lead to Mass. passing a Stand Your Ground law, MGL  278:8a 


http://www.malegislature.gov/Laws/GeneralLaws/PartIV/TitleII/Chapter278/Section8a



> Section 8A. In the prosecution of a person who is an occupant of a  dwelling charged with killing or injuring one who was unlawfully in said  dwelling, it shall be a defense that the occupant was in his dwelling  at the time of the offense and that he acted in the reasonable belief  that the person unlawfully in said dwelling was about to inflict great  bodily injury or death upon said occupant or upon another person  lawfully in said dwelling, and that said occupant used reasonable means  to defend himself or such other person lawfully in said dwelling. There  shall be no duty on said occupant to retreat from such person unlawfully  in said dwelling.


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## Bruno@MT (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks Carol. So as I said: either the relevant verbiage is written in the constitution or in case law. No state requires you to flee your own home in face of a threat.

*@GJC*: It turns out that was nearly half a century ago, not 2 or 3 years. And the laws were changed because of that. If you say you don't want to live there, it would not be unreasonable for us to expect you to know the details, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to know where you didn't want to live. Btw, Did your state support segregation in the 60s? If so, would that be a reason not to live there as well?

I also see no reason why I should be the one doing the legwork ( I would not even know where to begin looking) considering that you're the one making the unlikely claims, not me. This is like the 911 nutcases who require the sane people to prove that the government didn't blow up the towers. It doesn't work that way. The ones making the claims should be the ones to provide the proof.


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## Carol (Sep 21, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Thanks Carol. So as I said: either the relevant verbiage is written in the constitution or in case law. No state requires you to flee your own home in face of a threat.
> 
> *@GJC*: It turns out that was nearly half a century ago, not 2 or 3 years. And the laws were changed because of that. If you say you don't want to live there, it would not be unreasonable for us to expect you to know the details, because otherwise you wouldn't be able to know where you didn't want to live. Btw, Did your state support segregation in the 60s? If so, would that be a reason not to live there as well?
> 
> I also see no reason why I should be the one doing the legwork ( I would not even know where to begin looking) considering that you're the one making the unlikely claims, not me.



Also, the man that Ms. Shaffer shot was NOT an intruder.  The man she shot was her live-in fiancee.  

Suffice it to say. the entire nation as a whole -- even an area as progressive and educated as Massachusetts -- was not as enlightened about domestic violence in the early 1970s.


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## MJS (Sep 21, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Cause us girls are supposed to be sugar and spice and everything nice.


 
True, but then again, I know a few girls that train, who God forbid they were to be attacked, and God help the bad guy is all I can say. 



> also i was in a situation where i had to use force to get away from the guy and my mind set is, Do whatever is necessary, your aim isnt to hurt someone, its to get away and stay alive and stay safe. If you have to hurt them do it. But only if you have to. and btw. I'm a girl.


 
True.  I mentioned that in an earlier post that not every situation is going to take drastic measures.  IMO though, if you're training for SD and you're physically being attacked, then all bets are off and thats not the time to be squeemish about fighting dirty.


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## fighter_x (Sep 21, 2010)

The phrase "fighting dirty" is best left in the ring with sports competitors that have rules and guidelines for competition. Where rule breakers that sneak a thumb jab, or knee a downed opponent are in violation of the rules.

No such thing on the street. It boils down to winning and surviving vs losing and the potential for serious injury. If surviving is dirty, then I fight filthy.


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## Gaius Julius Caesar (Sep 22, 2010)

Carol said:


> Also, the man that Ms. Shaffer shot was NOT an intruder. The man she shot was her live-in fiancee.
> 
> Suffice it to say. the entire nation as a whole -- even an area as progressive and educated as Massachusetts -- was not as enlightened about domestic violence in the early 1970s.


 
 I don't think it was that case because the woman in question used her Husband's hunting rifle.

 I am sure there have many times where a woman fled to the basement in the US.

 Fact remains some states are alot better than others when it comes to the legality of defending yourself.

 In Florida, you can stand your ground anywhere and use deadly force.

 What you can get away with in Texas will get you prison time in NY and many other states. You can kill intruders on your lawn at night, in Va he better be attacking you. In your house, his life is your's.

 I can walk down the street in most of Va. with a psitol on my side, but I can;t do that in Maryland and it's still a dark grey area in DC.

 Alot of practicle options for SD will get you manslaughter charges in many states.

 And then there is the descretion of the first responders.  17 years ago in Florida, I watched my singer hit a crackhead who came at him in the head with a baseball bat. I was sure that when the cops came he was going to jail.
 The cops recognized the guy on the ground, one said to the other "Look who it is." and they were both smileing.

 They asked my singer "Son telll me you did not hit this guy with a bat?"
 "Well sir I.."

"No! Your not hearting me son, tell me you did not hit this guy with a bat."

"Hey kid, did you see him hit this guy?"

" I did'nt see ****, sir."

"You see boy's what we have her is Mutual combatants, aka a fight. No clear victum here and no witness."

 "Now tell me your name."

" Cliff Mor.."

 "Robert Conway, got it."

 10 minutes later
"You boys beat it and thanks."

 Total luck there, I guess the cops had delt with this lowlife many times and were glad someone turned him into a retard and were not going to screw up a young man's life for a POS.


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## sgtmac_46 (Sep 24, 2010)

fighter_x said:


> The phrase "fighting dirty" is best left in the ring with sports competitors that have rules and guidelines for competition. Where rule breakers that sneak a thumb jab, or knee a downed opponent are in violation of the rules.
> 
> No such thing on the street. It boils down to winning and surviving vs losing and the potential for serious injury. If surviving is dirty, then I fight filthy.


 
On the street if you're not cheating, you're not trying........and if you're fighting fair, you're not being fair to yourself.

The way I look at it is....if he didn't want to get hurt, he shouldn't have come to me.


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## ETinCYQX (Aug 6, 2011)

All of the legal red tape involved makes an even stronger case for my own self defense style: Run-Fu.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 7, 2011)

fighter_x said:


> If surviving is dirty, then I fight filthy.



stealing this


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## thegatekeeper (Dec 26, 2011)

I  think the main point here is to use good judgement. I mean, if someone who is unarmed is trying to rob you, it seems over the top to do something like key him in the face. It all depends on the situation.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 26, 2011)

thegatekeeper said:


> I  think the main point here is to use good judgement. I mean, if someone who is unarmed is trying to rob you, it seems over the top to do something like key him in the face. It all depends on the situation.


I assume by Key, You mean Shoot, and not stab with a Key.
In which case, You are correct. 
Also, look at Your Body. Where can You be Shot, that mightnt hit something important, and wont cause long term damage, much like Blunt Forced Trauma?
A Bullet to the Head is just the most immediate effect.

Stabbing an Unarmed (How would You know Theyre Unarmed, exactly?) Home Invader with a Key is perhaps safer all-round.


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## Indagator (Dec 26, 2011)

in a survival situation, survival is paramount. beyond that... a grey area.


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## Chris Parker (Dec 29, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> *I assume by Key, You mean Shoot, and not stab with a Key.*
> In which case, You are correct.
> Also, look at Your Body. Where can You be Shot, that mightnt hit something important, and wont cause long term damage, much like Blunt Forced Trauma?
> A Bullet to the Head is just the most immediate effect.
> ...



To "key" someone's face is similar to keying someone's car, basically using the keys to scratch and attack the face. There's nothing about shooting anyone involved at all.


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## Cyriacus (Dec 29, 2011)

Chris Parker said:


> To "key" someone's face is similar to keying someone's car, basically using the keys to scratch and attack the face. There's nothing about shooting anyone involved at all.


I can honestly say Ive never heard that used in its context.
Salutations Good Sir


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## onthechin (Dec 30, 2011)

I would say keep the keys (maybe your car will end up a safe haven). Throwing them at someone would only distract them for a fraction of a second. I would actually question the whole story from the originl poster..why would she be unwilling to hurt the gif she felt seriously threatened? Maybe she was just thinking 'what if?' It's sort of hard to understand if there was a mugging or if they were just talking about it..No-one who feels seriously threatened is going to worry about hurting the other guy. Hve you got a link to this post?


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## onthechin (Dec 30, 2011)

We've all seen enough horror movies where the girls have the axe murderer on the ground unconcious and they all run off, he wakes ups and it starts all over again. In real life would that happen? There are some people who are incapable of hurting another person but how many? Good question


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## MJS (Dec 30, 2011)

onthechin said:


> I would say keep the keys (maybe your car will end up a safe haven). Throwing them at someone would only distract them for a fraction of a second. I would actually question the whole story from the originl poster..why would she be unwilling to hurt the gif she felt seriously threatened? Maybe she was just thinking 'what if?' It's sort of hard to understand if there was a mugging or if they were just talking about it..No-one who feels seriously threatened is going to worry about hurting the other guy. Hve you got a link to this post?



I saw the OP on MAP.  I went back to where I thought I may've seen the thread, but due to this being over a year old, I wasn't going to surf thru endless threads.  IMHO, and I believe Chris touched on this earlier, but the current attitude is most likely due to conditioning.  The majority of time, people are 'conditioned' to comply, don't do this, don't do that, which could lead to a feeling of just not wanting to hurt someone.  Personally, I call BS on that.  Sorry, as I've said countless times....if someone is willing to rob, beat, mug, etc, they obviously have no remorse or compassion for you, so why have any for them?  We hear all the time about poor upbringings, this line or that line or hardship, but IMO, thats a crutch.  I mean really....I find it hard to believe that every single person who's had a rough life, had to resort to a life of crime.  

As for using an improvised weapon....sure, I'm all for it.  Keys, a pen, a knife, a gun, a rock, whatever....if your *** is on the line, do what you need to do, to survive.  Of course, if you're going to use something like a knife or gun or even pepperspray/mace, a) it'd be a very wise idea to get some training in using those tools properly, and b) have them within easy reach.  If you have to dig thru your purse to get the gun, well.....

As for throwing something...well, goes back to the improvised weapon.  I'm not going to toss my keys, if thats my 1 means of escape.  What the hell good is that, if I can't get into my vehicle or start it for that matter?  If I'm going to throw something, I want to use something that has the potential of causing injury if it hits the person.


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## kaizasosei (Dec 30, 2011)

hey..
I think that it is one of the most difficult things in life generally to know when the the right time to fight. As a martial artist, you learn many moves so you'd think it would give you more possibilities in reacting with or without regard for the others well being. Mind you, in enough dojos you have plenty of people and socalled instructors with lesser regard for physical and mental wellbeing of others so no telling whats out there, especially after you've smashed it's larynx.  
Whatever you do, i say, make it count.

To know when to fight is the subject of much meditation and ponderance on ethics, morals as well as virtues.
The taste of most any fight is never as sweet as one would like to think. The scars that one dishes out are the dangerous ones for the soul and future wellbeing. 
However, there are instances where the law condones use of severe force. So i think it would be good to check with the laws of the land and area you live in.


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