# Pole form, spin, choreography?



## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

This is a portion of a response by @Nobody Important on another thread that I've been pondering....



Nobody Important said:


> I'm simply stating, knowing both 5th Brother pole & 13 Spear pole , as well as, 6 1/2 Point that they all contain the same method. 5th Brother pole is the mother. Yes other techniques are included, *aside from a 180 spin* in 5th Brother & twirling in 13, nothing else *violates Wing Chun theory.* It's not much different than comparing Tang Yik pole & Yip Man pole. *Difference is in organization & repetition* mostly, there are other techniques but they are cohesive. It's like comparing SNT to a version of SNT performed out of order. *The order makes no difference conceptually* and not justified to say it's not the same because the choreography is different.



Apologies for such a weird segmented post.

Ever since reading NI's post (specifically the emphasized texts above) I've been thinking about them and wanted to see what you guys and gals think.

1) I'd never heard of 5th Brother Pole. Any video footage of it? I want to understand how it could be / is the "mother" to 6.5 pole.

2) What are your thoughts on a "spin"? Do any of your WC forms contain a spin? (empty hand, jongs, weapons?)

3) Why does a spin violate WC theory?

4) Finally, does your WC/VT/WT family place a lot of strict emphasis on the order or sequence of your forms? (I.E. do you feel you could perform various pole or knife form actions/sets/sections out of order and have no effect?)

Thanks all!


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## yak sao (Feb 3, 2017)

I've heard of the 5 brothers form. I think it is from Hung Gar, though I have never seen it .
 As for the way I was taught Long pole, it seems to be very much a "boat" form, in that we are keeping the opponent in front of us and not doing a tremendous amount of footwork.
 Though I don't know much about the knife form as of yet , there is no flip or spin in our version of it . It was explained to me that if it's serious enough to fight someone with a knife you better keep that blade out in front of you.

 As for the forms, we are actually encouraged to break the forms down , do them out of sequence , etc. so that we are not mindlessly practicing a set routine but rather isolating principles and learning how to free flow between them . Of course this comes after you have become quite competent competent with the form as is .


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## wingchun100 (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> This is a portion of a response by @Nobody Important on another thread that I've been pondering....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
1) Never heard of 5th brother pole.

2) None of the Wing Chun forms I have learned or seen contain a spin.

3) It depends on what you mean. Do you mean a spin as in a spinning back kick, meaning you are not turning to face a new opponent but turning your back to a current one? I think that would violate simply because you are turning your back to the enemy.

4) From what I have seen, Sifus will place an emphasis on the order when you are first learning it. After a while, when you have the principles down, you have more freedom.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

yak sao said:


> I've heard of the 5 brothers form. I think it is from Hung Gar, though I have never seen it .
> As for the way I was taught Long pole, it seems to be very much a "boat" form, in that we are keeping the opponent in front of us and not doing a tremendous amount of footwork.
> Though I don't know much about the knife form as of yet , there is no flip or spin in our version of it . It was explained to me that if it's serious enough to fight someone with a knife you better keep that blade out in front of you.
> 
> As for the forms, we are actually encouraged to break the forms down , do them out of sequence , etc. so that we are not mindlessly practicing a set routine but rather isolating principles and learning how to free flow between them . Of course this comes after you have become quite competent competent with the form as is .



H Yak. I should probably clarify...when I said 'spin' ... I meant as in your entire body does some sort of 360 spin ...
But, thanks for the feedback.!


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

clarification:

by "spin" I meant the body doing a 360.
But, I suppose we could also discuss whether or not your pole form contains a pole spin, big circle or small circle, etc.

Sorry for any confusion...


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## yak sao (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> clarification:
> 
> by "spin" I meant the body doing a 360.
> But, I suppose we could also discuss whether or not your pole form contains a pole spin, big circle or small circle, etc.
> ...



No worries, I confuse easily. We don't spin as a rule, but sometimes that may be the most efficient way to regain your center.
Or as we say in our little group, never spin, but when you do, spin quickly.


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## yak sao (Feb 3, 2017)

BTW, there is a spin type move in the tri podal dummy drills, and I would go as far to say that it is alluded to in Chum Kiu.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

yak sao said:


> BTW, there is a spin type move in the tri podal dummy drills, and I would go as far to say that it is alluded to in Chum Kiu.



Hmmm...we'll have to compare T.P.D drills someday.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2017)

1) I'd never heard of 5th Brother Pole. Any video footage of it? I want to understand how it could be / is the "mother" to 6.5 pole.

---I had never heard of it either.  But I had heard of the 13 Spear. 

This part:   It's not much different than comparing Tang Yik pole & Yip Man pole. *Difference is in organization & repetition
*
---I would have to disagree to a small extent with this.  The difference is more than organization and repetition.  There is a difference in the mechanics and execution as well.  I think I posted a video about that on my pole thread. 

2) What are your thoughts on a "spin"? Do any of your WC forms contain a spin? (empty hand, jongs, weapons?)

--The 360 "spin around" that I have seen in Wing Chun is from William Cheung's knife form.

3) Why does a spin violate WC theory?

--Who said it did!?  ;-) 

4) Finally, does your WC/VT/WT family place a lot of strict emphasis on the order or sequence of your forms? (I.E. do you feel you could perform various pole or knife form actions/sets/sections out of order and have no effect?)

---The Tang Yik pole form is much more elaborate than the majority of Ip Man pole forms.  It can be divided into sections for ease of learning.  Technically one could rearrange the order of those sections any way you wanted to.   There are no knives in Tang Yik Weng Chun.  In Pin Sun Wing Chun the knives are just an extension of the San Sik.   Each San Sik is only a 3 or 4 count to begin with, so talking about changing the sequence doesn't really apply.  The San Sik performed with the knives can be "mixed and matched" as desired.  The knife form from TWC has a specific sequence that I don't see anyone trying to change around.


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## wckf92 (Feb 3, 2017)

KPM said:


> 2) What are your thoughts on a "spin"? Do any of your WC forms contain a spin? (empty hand, jongs, weapons?)
> 
> --The 360 "spin around" that I have seen in Wing Chun is from William Cheung's knife form.
> 
> ...



2) Yeah, I've heard that too...I also once saw a video of somebody do the 360 with the knives vs pole but it appeared to be an older Chinese gentleman from a HK kwoon maybe. But, he was older and the "spin" wasn't that dynamic perhaps due to his age.

3) I think N.I. said it in his post but I could be mistaken (meaning a spin violates WC theory?) But, now that I think about it maybe he was specifically referring to a spin of the pole?

4) Thx. Good info!


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## DanT (Feb 3, 2017)

I like the 6.5 form because its freaking simple, like it should be. I don't care if yip man made it up, its a great idea, and like practicing it even tho its so simple.

As for spinning motions, 360 spins of the pole can be used similar to a hun sao is used in circling around an opponents arm or weapon. 

I like spinning kicks because they can surprise people. I think people should remember its not so much a spin as it is a turn to add power. You wouldn't just randomly turn and show your opponent your back. You need to time it right. We do plenty of turning kicks and punches in shaolin and they're all very effective. Make wing chun your b*tch not the other way around.


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## KPM (Feb 3, 2017)

DanT said:


> I like the 6.5 form because its freaking simple, like it should be. I don't care if yip man made it up, its a great idea, and like practicing it even tho its so simple.
> 
> .



Why should it be so simple though?   Many use it only for conditioning and treat the pole really as some kind of weight lifting. If that's the purpose, then yeah it can be very simple!   And that's also why they use such a large pole.  But that huge pole is rather impractical for real fighting.   Here is some footage of the Tang Yik Pole:






When you treat the pole as a real weapon, it isn't quite as simple!  ;-)


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## geezer (Feb 3, 2017)

Here's one of a couple of Youtube videos of the "Fifth Brother Pole" I found:






Some movements do indeed look like the Tang Yik form, and it appears to be even shorter than the Tang Yik pole, which significantly changes the usage from the very long and heavy YM Luk Dim Boon Kwun. Length and weight change things significantly as KPM pointed out in his thread on TY vs YM pole usage.

Moreover, on a quick viewing of this "5th Brother" pole form I noticed a lot of movement besides the "spinning" that would not apply to a longer pole, and there were numerous thrusting movements extending the pole _by sliding up the rear hand_ --the kind of movements common in short spear work, but not used in YM pole. I've heard it said that "the spear is the mother of long weapons." In this sense I suppose you could say that it is the "mother of the pole" but I really don't see all that much in common with YM pole work beyond some similar movements. 

In fact I don't really see all that much that looks close to the TY form either -- especially in the _quality_ of the movements. But that could just be a reflection of the different skill levels. Tang Yik is so energetic and alive, executing his movements with such elastic energy. By comparison the guy demonstrating the "5th Brother" form, though confident, seems ponderous and for an obviously strong guy, strangely less powerful than TY.

BTW I agree with KPM, if you are interested in pole work that can easily be adapted to practical, improvised weapons, a shorter pole like the TY pole makes more sense, ...as do simple, efficient movements. I have developed some short pole work in my Escrima program that fits the bill. No 360 spins or XMA twirls.


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> This is a portion of a response by @Nobody Important on another thread that I've been pondering....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is some footage of various pole sets who all share ancestry to 5th Brother Yang’s original pole method he developed based upon Yang family spear work. One thing that is important to keep in mind is that when a weapon is imported into a system, it will over time take on the characteristics of that system. It can clearly be seen that each of these sets share a common core of movements, however, they are performed in a manner consistent with the principles of the style represented. All 6 ½ points of the _Luk Dim Bun Kwan_ can be found in each of these sets, that is the common core. 5th Brother Yang developed the 6 ½ points when he retreated to Henan Shaolin temple and removed his spear point to develop staff techniques for the monks.


Flying Dragon Tiger Pole of Fut Gar







5th Brother Pole of Pak Hok Pai







5th Brother 8 Diagrams Pole of Hung Gar (Combination of 13 Pole & 5th Brother)







13 Pole of Hung Gar (Starts at 11-minute mark)


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> clarification:
> 
> by "spin" I meant the body doing a 360.
> But, I suppose we could also discuss whether or not your pole form contains a pole spin, big circle or small circle, etc.
> ...


What's all this 360 spin stuff? I only mentioned a 180 degree spin


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## Nobody Important (Feb 3, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> 1) I'd never heard of 5th Brother Pole. Any video footage of it? I want to understand how it could be / is the "mother" to 6.5 pole.



Provided



wckf92 said:


> 2) What are your thoughts on a "spin"? Do any of your WC forms contain a spin? (empty hand, jongs, weapons?)



Chum Kiu



wckf92 said:


> 3) Why does a spin violate WC theory?



It doesn't



wckf92 said:


> 4) Finally, does your WC/VT/WT family place a lot of strict emphasis on the order or sequence of your forms? (I.E. do you feel you could perform various pole or knife form actions/sets/sections out of order and have no effect?) Thanks all!



Forms are nothing more than a repository of techniques. A method for remembering like concepts and tactics. Order makes no difference. Take the Karate kata Seisan for example, different branches perform it differently, some versions are long some are short. Some versions contain auxiliary movements, order of techniques is different, but all versions contain the 13 primary techniques from which the kata derives it's name.


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## wckf92 (Feb 4, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> Here is some footage of various pole sets who all share ancestry to 5th Brother Yang’s original pole method he developed based upon Yang family spear work. One thing that is important to keep in mind is that when a weapon is imported into a system, it will over time take on the characteristics of that system. It can clearly be seen that each of these sets share a common core of movements, however, they are performed in a manner consistent with the principles of the style represented. All 6 ½ points of the _Luk Dim Bun Kwan_ can be found in each of these sets, that is the common core. 5th Brother Yang developed the 6 ½ points when he retreated to Henan Shaolin temple and removed his spear point to develop staff techniques for the monks.
> 
> 
> Flying Dragon Tiger Pole of Fut Gar
> ...



Ok...this was extremely useful. Thank you! 
I saw bits and pieces of my pole form in there; and now have a much better understanding of where it came from. Thanks N.I.!!!!!!


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## wckf92 (Feb 4, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> What's all this 360 spin stuff? I only mentioned a 180 degree spin



Yeah sorry...my bad


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## Nobody Important (Feb 4, 2017)

wckf92 said:


> Ok...this was extremely useful. Thank you!
> I saw bits and pieces of my pole form in there; and now have a much better understanding of where it came from. Thanks N.I.!!!!!!


You're most welcome.


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## KPM (Feb 4, 2017)

Nobody Important said:


> You're most welcome.



Yes, thanks for the vids NI!   ALL of them look like they could be just variations of the same method!  They all have pretty much the same biomechanic or dynamic.  But I also do see a lot of commonalities with the Tang Yik pole.  But if you look at the Tang Yik footage, other than a smaller pole, the thing that sets it apart is the biomechanics.  Tang Yik looks very fast and crisp compared to all the others because he uses his entire body and especially his legs to power the movements.  In the other pole forms they are powering the movements almost entirely with the arms.  Watch how often the pole is held away from the body.  Compare that to Tang Yik and you will see how he rests the pole on his lead thigh and uses his legs to provide the majority of the power to the movements.  He does not have the pole held away from the body nearly as much.  In Tang Yik pole all of the wide sweeping motions you see in the other forms are viewed as excellent opportunities to strike their hands with a direct blow!


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## Nobody Important (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> Yes, thanks for the vids NI!   ALL of them look like they could be just variations of the same method!  They all have pretty much the same biomechanic or dynamic.  But I also do see a lot of commonalities with the Tang Yik pole.  But if you look at the Tang Yik footage, other than a smaller pole, the thing that sets it apart is the biomechanics.  Tang Yik looks very fast and crisp compared to all the others because he uses his entire body and especially his legs to power the movements.  In the other pole forms they are powering the movements almost entirely with the arms.  Watch how often the pole is held away from the body.  Compare that to Tang Yik and you will see how he rests the pole on his lead thigh and uses his legs to provide the majority of the power to the movements.  He does not have the pole held away from the body nearly as much.  In Tang Yik pole all of the wide sweeping motions you see in the other forms are viewed as excellent opportunities to strike their hands with a direct blow!


Agree, but would say that concerning biomechanic performance, the videos I chose were for clarity of movement not skill. If you have time search YouTube a bit, you'll run across some fast & lively performances.


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## DanT (Feb 4, 2017)

KPM said:


> Why should it be so simple though?   Many use it only for conditioning and treat the pole really as some kind of weight lifting. If that's the purpose, then yeah it can be very simple!   And that's also why they use such a large pole.  But that huge pole is rather impractical for real fighting.   Here is some footage of the Tang Yik Pole:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My wing chun is relatively very simple, in contrast to longfist or luohan palm or cha fist which are very complicated systems. Either way, I enjoy wing chun primarily because it's simple. Three short hand forms, a wooden dummy form, one short weapon and one long weapon. I believe that the 6.5 pole form really emphasizes this. I think wing chun in terms of combat techniques is relatively simple, with a couple of hand techniques and a few kicks. In my opinion, wing chun is rather like boxing: only a couple techniques but you can do them so fast and powerful and crisply that it doesn't matter. Actually in sparring I only do these techniques 95% of the time because they're all i need:

Straight Punch
Pak Sao
Lap Da
Tan Da
Front Kick
Round Kick
Side Kick

With the staff it's the same, once you rock at 5-6 techniques, that's all you need most of the time. My sihing told me once "Kung Fu has thousands of techniques. Pick ten." I think there's a lot of truth to that.


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