# Sanchin



## puunui (Apr 11, 2012)

Moving discussion in general martial arts to here: 



dancingalone said:


> It teaches correct posture and framing for  maximum structural strength and stability both when moving and standing  still.  There are certain underlying assumptions that go hand in hand  with this that Sanchin also teaches, such as unity of body and using  your breath to augment your structure.
> 
> The kata doesn't look like much outwardly to laypeople but there's a lot  going on there.  Now certainly different arts create structure and  power by emphasizing different qualities.  The way Goju-ryu does it  comes directly out of lengthy Sanchin practice, and it's unmistakable  when you look at a karate-ka and you know what signs to look for.
> 
> I usually start teaching Sanchin to new students within the first few  weeks, but it takes years to develop proficiency in.  From some  accounts, Master MIYAGI Chojun kept his students working on basics and  hojo undo for a few years before teaching them Sanchin.  And then he  kept them on Sanchin for another 3+ years before teaching anything else.    While very conservative by today's standards, this methodology  underscores how important the kata is within the system.




Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your  opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido?  If so, in what way?


----------



## Manny (Apr 11, 2012)

Nice questions, I have the same questiosn does Sanchin help TKDoings? I think yes, because sanchin can help to develop a strong body, as I seen on sanching the sensei beats the student while he performs this kata while executing breathing, the sensei punches, slaps and even kicks the student and the student barely feel it.

Manny


----------



## seasoned (Apr 11, 2012)

This is the most misunderstood kata. 
Learning the moves of Sanchin would take a very short time, and would appear to be boring. But, the principles of breath, structure, and movement, and how they relate to power, balance, and fluidity would take a sensei with much insight and experience to teach it correctly.
Everyone, from many styles, could benefit from this kata, but few would grasp the full implications without proper dedication to practice.


----------



## elder999 (Apr 11, 2012)

seasoned said:


> This is the most misunderstood kata.
> Learning the moves of Sanchin would take a very short time, and would appear to be boring. But, the principles of breath, structure, and movement, and how they relate to power, balance, and fluidity would take a sensei with much insight and experience to teach it correctly.
> Everyone, from many styles, could benefit from this kata, but few would grasp the full implications without proper dedication to practice.



This. :asian:

I've been doing _sanchin_ and_ tensho _almost every day since I was 14 or 15 years old. I can say a lot for the benefits, but I think I'm only beginning to have an idea of what they mean....


A Korean stylist might think of it as a moving _dan jun_ breathing exercise/meditation, but I think that's just a weak analogy on my part, and only scratches the surface of_ sanchin._


----------



## seasoned (Apr 11, 2012)

Trying to explaining a feeling is near impossible. This is why this kata was done somewhat exclusively for years. Someone can show you the kata, but you have to feel the kata for yourself to experience the many benefits, as you have done elder999.
There is an art to testing someone while doing sanchin. Many do it wrong and focus on body tension and the student being able to take hits. The Okinawans would test with open hand slaps making sure your shoulders and hips were down and the body rooted on the out breath. 
Sorry if it sounds like I'm preaching to the choir, but I get excited talking about sanchin.................


----------



## dancingalone (Apr 11, 2012)

puunui said:


> Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your  opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido?  If so, in what way?



I'm not sure I can do the topic you bring up justice without some extensive reflection and writing on my part.  It might be worth an essay later when I have digested my thoughts properly.

A few basic thoughts for now:  It was good and bad at the same time for my aikido practice.  (I'd be interested in K-Man's thoughts on this as well as we have very similar training backgrounds.)  

I came into aikido late, well after I had already internalized a lot of Goju-ryu mechanics into myself.  This was good in the sense that I understood balance and moving with my body as a unified connected unit.  I could readily make irimi upon uke and then expand my center with a casual shrug of Goju power, for lack of a better term, and overwhelm uke in his unbalance.  Some people, my wife included who is my sempai in aikido and even was my sensei for a time, remarked that my ki and sense of self was very highly developed when I first enrolled at their dojo.  What they called ki and self were what I understood as harmony of the body enhanced by the focus of mind/spirit when making a physical movement - something I learned in great part from Sanchin. 

Where my training in Goju-ryu was a hindrance, and this could be due to my temperament rather than the practice itself, was that early on in my aikido study I tended to be too hard and physical.  I had good ability to create and project force so I tended to use it as an unintentional crutch rather than letting myself become 'nothing' and letting uke throw himself if that makes sense at all.  Even today it is a tendency I must fight when practicing aikido.  I practice aikido with the full acceptance that some might think that 'real' aikido eludes me.  And maybe it does.  Or maybe it doesn't - I've always been interested in other forms of aikido/jujutsu/hapkido/etc in part to gauge myself on the soft and yielding scale - and it IS a scale.  Hopefully my technique will get more like my wife's with time.  

With regard to TKD and Sanchin, I think it depends on the activity and type of TKD.  I've never been able to integrate the same feeling of solidity and strength from Goju mechanics when playing around with modern TKD kicking, the type necessary to be successful at KKW Olympic sparring, but perhaps someone more talented and interested than me can manage it.  On the other hand, I could see serious Sanchin practice being a profound influence on Korean karate types.  Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.


----------



## K-man (Apr 11, 2012)

puunui said:


> Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your  opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido?  If so, in what way?


Sanchin has many benefits and some of these would obviously apply across the board to most martial arts.  However, I don't believe Aikido is one that would benefit unless you are doing one of the early aikido styles that relies on strength and speed.  Sanchin locks up the body into an immovable mass when being tested. The analogy in aikido is when in the kneeling position you cannot be moved by someone pushing. These tests are diametrically opposed, one using strength against strength and one using softness against strength. For practitioners of Ki it is 'hard' Ki in Sanchin and 'soft' Ki in Suwari Waza.

The reason Sanchin is so important in Goju is that the upper body position trained in Sanchin translates into almost all the basic ukes. For example, in the kata we start out with a double Chudan uke.  Think for the moment of just one arm. In Sanchin the arm has moved from inside to outside. If the arm had moved from outside to inside then we have Uchi uke. The position of the elbow is the same, the alignment of the forearm is the same and the plane of movement is the same. Same can be said for Kake uke, Soto Uke, Shuto uke etc.  Turn the arm down for Gedan barai and again it is the same body structure. Turn the fist over and lift the arm, Jodan uke (although it could be argued that this is a later addition to Goju). Using both arms, we have Mawashi uke and once again the elbows are in and the same body structure is utilised.

Another exercise we practise is a version of 'push hands' called kakie.  The beginning and end position of this exercise is the same as in Sanchin.

That is just the body structure as it relates to 'uke'. We can do the same exercise for moving, striking and the stances. The lessons within Sanchin kata for Goju practitioners are almost endless.  

For TKD is it is less relevent For a couple of reasons. TKD kata are based on Shotokan karate and from what I have seen of their kata, they tend to have the arms further from the body. This does not utilise the body structure of Sanchin. That is not to say that the breathing and tensioning of the body would not be useful, obviously they would, which is the reason so many other karate styles have 'borrowed' Sanchin.

Many Goju practitioners could write a book about Sanchin.  As a result it is easy to see why it has been said that;* "Goju Ryu is Sanchin".     *:asian:


----------



## elder999 (Apr 12, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> . Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.



It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's _sanchin,_ as well.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> Sanchin has many benefits and some of these would obviously apply across the board to most martial arts.  However, I don't believe Aikido is one that would benefit unless you are doing one of the early aikido styles that relies on strength and speed.  Sanchin locks up the body into an immovable mass when being tested. The analogy in aikido is when in the kneeling position you cannot be moved by someone pushing. These tests are diametrically opposed, one using strength against strength and one using softness against strength. For practitioners of Ki it is 'hard' Ki in Sanchin and 'soft' Ki in Suwari Waza.
> 
> The reason Sanchin is so important in Goju is that the upper body position trained in Sanchin translates into almost all the basic ukes. For example, in the kata we start out with a double Chudan uke.  Think for the moment of just one arm. In Sanchin the arm has moved from inside to outside. If the arm had moved from outside to inside then we have Uchi uke. The position of the elbow is the same, the alignment of the forearm is the same and the plane of movement is the same. Same can be said for Kake uke, Soto Uke, Shuto uke etc.  Turn the arm down for Gedan barai and again it is the same body structure. Turn the fist over and lift the arm, Jodan uke (although it could be argued that this is a later addition to Goju). Using both arms, we have Mawashi uke and once again the elbows are in and the same body structure is utilised.
> 
> ...


Very good post. 
If I may add, there are arts that focus there techniques at different distances pertaining to their opponent, and keep their opponent at striking distance. 
Your statement *"Goju Ryu is Sanchin"* tells it all.GoJu is, and always has been a close in fighting art, not conducive for sparring, for the most part, but geared toward infighting as shown by the Goju kata. Perhaps at a rudimentary level sanchin may give some advantages pertaining to center of gravity and harmony of breathe.


----------



## dancingalone (Apr 12, 2012)

elder999 said:


> It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's _sanchin,_ as well.



I've always been curious about the various 100 man kumite exhibitions and whether the people who are able to complete the challenge attribute at least some of their resilience and durability to Sanchin.  

Same thing with Andy Hug.  I used to watch all his fights that I could, since he was obviously great.  Didn't see much of Sanchin in his movement, but the kickboxing game is definitely something else.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm sure a lot of people already know this, but this is a good book on Sanchin:

_"The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power,"_ by Chris Wilder

It's pretty inexpensive on Amazon.  Well worth it, in my opinion.

Isshin-Ryu does not apply tension all the way through the kata as some other styles do, as I understand it.  We practice the 'three battles' as we perform the kata, just not the same way.

http://www.olemiss.edu/orgs/karate/sanchin.html

Some have claimed that Sanchin can be dangerous physically; this is also discussed in Chris Wilder's book.

I'm not qualified to say if Sanchin is or is not dangerous as practiced by various ryu.  I do enjoy it, however.


----------



## seasoned (Apr 12, 2012)

At the on set of teaching sanchin, proper breathing needs to be taught, and monitored through the ranks. When sanchin is taught using hard strikes for testing, the students tends to hold their breath while being hit, and this is a big factor in high *BP*. Breath should be free flowing and not restricted. In through the nose and out of the mouth with the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. It is as safe as we make it...............


----------



## HammockRider (Apr 12, 2012)

What do you guys think about someone with high BP performing Sanchin? Would you need more info to come to an opinion?


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

elder999 said:


> A Korean stylist might think of it as a moving _dan jun_ breathing exercise/meditation, but I think that's just a weak analogy on my part, and only scratches the surface of_ sanchin._



What in your opinion is the difference between sanchin and hapkido danjun breathing? Have you practiced danjun breathing, and if so, how do you do that exercise?


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> I'm not sure I can do the topic you bring up justice without some extensive reflection and writing on my part.  It might be worth an essay later when I have digested my thoughts properly.



I thought you did pretty good. I always enjoy your thoughts and feelings on things as well as hearing about your personal experiences, because the way you write makes it easy for me to experience it from your perspective, without me having to extend myself into it to make it understandable. You make it easy for me to stay out of it. I don't know if I am explaining it correctly. 



dancingalone said:


> I came into aikido late, well after I had already internalized a lot of Goju-ryu mechanics into myself.  This was good in the sense that I understood balance and moving with my body as a unified connected unit.  I could readily make irimi upon uke and then expand my center with a casual shrug of Goju power, for lack of a better term, and overwhelm uke in his unbalance.  Some people, my wife included who is my sempai in aikido and even was my sensei for a time, remarked that my ki and sense of self was very highly developed when I first enrolled at their dojo.  What they called ki and self were what I understood as harmony of the body enhanced by the focus of mind/spirit when making a physical movement - something I learned in great part from Sanchin.



cool.



dancingalone said:


> Where my training in Goju-ryu was a hindrance, and this could be due to my temperament rather than the practice itself, was that early on in my aikido study I tended to be too hard and physical.  I had good ability to create and project force so I tended to use it as an unintentional crutch rather than letting myself become 'nothing' and letting uke throw himself if that makes sense at all.



Yes it does. 



dancingalone said:


> Even today it is a tendency I must fight when practicing aikido.  I practice aikido with the full acceptance that some might think that 'real' aikido eludes me.  And maybe it does.  Or maybe it doesn't - I've always been interested in other forms of aikido/jujutsu/hapkido/etc in part to gauge myself on the soft and yielding scale - and it IS a scale.  Hopefully my technique will get more like my wife's with time.



Rather than be judgmental and say the "real" aikido eludes you, I would say that your aikido is a reflection of your present state and that will change over time, as you change. As for forceful, I hear Osensei was pretty forceful himself. The story that comes to mind is the one where he is at a crowded train station where he parts the crowd like the red sea and walks through. If some didn't know it was osensei doing that, they may say that "real" aikido eluded that person as well. 




dancingalone said:


> With regard to TKD and Sanchin, I think it depends on the activity and type of TKD.  I've never been able to integrate the same feeling of solidity and strength from Goju mechanics when playing around with modern TKD kicking, the type necessary to be successful at KKW Olympic sparring, but perhaps someone more talented and interested than me can manage it.



I think the feeling of solidity and strength is contained more in movement in taekwondo, which might be a different application of sanchin in goju ryu. One area where you can maintain that feeling of solidiity and strength right away is holding shields. I had these kajukenbo black belts join one time and when they held the shields or did hogu drills with us, they would tense their entire body up and yell really loud when anyone struck them. So I held the pad (that curved blue shield) with one finger, for roundhouse kick. No one could make me move, even a little. Then I did the same thing with my eyes closed with the same result. Their mouths were open and they couldn't figure out what I was doing. It was simply basic body mechanics, making the right muscles strong (which I think sanchin does), along with basic nonmoving rooting. When they asked me about it, I told them my secret was I ate wheaties religiously everyday, that it really works. 



dancingalone said:


> On the other hand, I could see serious Sanchin practice being a profound influence on Korean karate types.  Perhaps it would be instructive to look to the Kyokushinkai people and find someone who is very successful in their sparring competitions and then see how much if any Sanchin plays a role in their training.



I think kyokushin sparring is very similar to taekwondo sparring, without the leg kicks.


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> For TKD is it is less relevent For a couple of reasons. TKD kata are based on Shotokan karate and from what I have seen of their kata, they tend to have the arms further from the body. This does not utilise the body structure of Sanchin. That is not to say that the breathing and tensioning of the body would not be useful, obviously they would, which is the reason so many other karate styles have 'borrowed' Sanchin.



Thank you for your very detailed post. One thing though is that many taekwondo practitioners perform the kukkiwon poomsae with long extended arms and legs, but they were not originally designed for that. The kukkiwon poomsae were meant to be done with tighter arm positions, which are closer to the body, to go along with shorter more natural stances.


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

elder999 said:


> It's been a while since I was "successful in sparring competitions," if I ever was, but, as I said, sanchin is part of my daily practice. It's a requirement for 7th kyu, so we start on it pretty early. I know it's part of the likes of Matsui sensei's daily practice as well-it really is very much Goju's _sanchin,_ as well.



What art do you study now? Kyokushinkai karate?


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> Same thing with Andy Hug.  I used to watch all his fights that I could, since he was obviously great.  Didn't see much of Sanchin in his movement, but the kickboxing game is definitely something else.



Andy Hug was big in korea. First time I heard of him was in a korean newspaper article, and for the longest time I thought his name was Andy Hook.


----------



## puunui (Apr 12, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> _"The Way of Sanchin Kata: The Application of Power,"_ by Chris Wilder



I have that; never read it though. I'll go pull it off the shelf tonight.


----------



## Buka (Apr 12, 2012)

Sanchin is what Sanchin does. If it's good for you, so be it. If it's not good for you, so be it. If you've never done much of it, you really don't know.

To me - it's the first Kata I ever learned. Truthfully, I haven't done it in fifteen years. But it still rocks. Oh, it so fricken' rocks.


----------



## punisher73 (Apr 13, 2012)

Sanchin is like a pretty jewelry box that is locked.  You can marvel at it's beauty and appreciate it, but until you really dig in and "unlock" it do you find the treasure inside the box.

So to some, it is an "exercise" only kata that has no combat value.  To others it contains all of the essence of their art.  Both are right depending on how much time they spend with Sanchin and what it teaches them when digging.  My opinion, if all you want is exercise, then the masters wouldn't have had students performing hojo undo as well.  There was something else that was to be learned from the kata.


----------



## puunui (Apr 13, 2012)

Where does sanchin come from? Who invented it?


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2012)

puunui said:


> Where does sanchin come from? Who invented it?



I guess no one knows...


http://www.fightingarts.com/reading/article.php?id=648

EDIT: The article above talks about San Chien form from Ngo Cho Kun.  I do see what appear to be similarities.





[video=youtube_share;lvw9-SIurKE]http://youtu.be/lvw9-SIurKE[/video]


----------



## seasoned (Apr 13, 2012)

If you watch closely you can see the little bounce he does as he rebounds. Like a bouncing ball goes down and fires backup from the ground, so does the body in sanchin. Power comes from the ground but originates from the hips sending the weight down as the power bounces backup through the body and out the limbs. 
Thoughts or does anyone care to elaborate more.


----------



## ballen0351 (Apr 13, 2012)

I think its neat there are so many different verison of it this is the version I *try *to do:


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2012)

This is my Sanchin.  I do not claim expertise in it.  And FYI, I'm nearly 20 pounds lighter than when I filmed this. :uhyeah:






[video=youtube_share;ZpcrmwU4Euw]http://youtu.be/ZpcrmwU4Euw[/video]


----------



## seasoned (Apr 13, 2012)

seasoned said:


> If you watch closely you can see the little bounce he does as he rebounds. Like a bouncing ball goes down and fires backup from the ground, so does the body in sanchin. Power comes from the ground but originates from the hips sending the weight down as the power bounces backup through the body and out the limbs.
> Thoughts or does anyone care to elaborate more.



Question asked of me by a student.


> I havent fully learned Sanchin yet; I have gone through it a couple times at the dojo, but it hasnt been fully taught to me. I think I remember learning the movements without the breathing, etc. from Pete when I was in my mid-teens. I was actually talking to my dad about Sanchin testing a few weeks ago, because he used to go to all of the tournaments in the 60s and 70s (Pete was his best man at my parents wedding in 1970; they were very close). We were talking about Shihan Van Lenten and how he is rumored to be the first one to be tested during Sanchin by having boards broken over his back, arms, etc. I asked him if Pete used to do that too, and he responded with an annoyed Why sh** yes!, as if it was a ridiculous question for me to ask. How I feel about Sanchin  I think anything that allows you to build the kind of strength to have blunt objects broken over various parts of your body without it affecting you in return is a pretty incredible technique, and Im eager to start learning it.
> You mentioned that you practice and teach the 12 Goju katas, but you said before that Pete had originally started teaching the mixed system (Shorin, Goju, etc.) in the 60s. If you dont mind me asking, why did you go to the traditional Goju system? Is it for the same reasons that Van Lenten and Pete did in the 80s? Do you see it as being better in some way?




My answer.





> Shorin Ryu and GoJu Ryu are two separate systems. One being credited with power, and the other with speed and fluid moves. They are good combinations, but I dont think we need to study two systems to achieve what one will give, over time. I was given both when my training started, but evolved into GoJu.
> GoJu is a midrange to close in fighting system, while Shorin Ryu is a long to midrange system. Taking this into consideration, it is apparent that Shorin Ryu is conducive to sparring, while GoJu, not so much. Now the question is, what is one looking for within their training. It would seem that the above would make for a well rounded fighter, close, medium, and long range, but at a second glance the principles are different. While Shorin Ryu is content with staying outside, GoJu teaches you to close quickly and finish abruptly. Because of GoJus close in fighting principles, we need to generate power at a much closer distance, while at the same time maintaining balance as we grapple, lock up, and take down our opponent.
> By learning Sanchin as our first kata, it sets the ground work needed to achieve GoJus objective, close in fighting. All the principles of GoJu are within Sanchin, Structure, breath, and movement. Once we own these principles, we begin to translate them into all our other kata. Where GoJu is concerned, learning other kata before Sanchin is counter productive to success with GoJu. Sanchin isnt about learning moves or techniques, but it is to be able to feel them. This feeling part cant be taught, only guided by someone that has put the time in.



IMHO, sanchin teaches one to generate power while in very close to your opponent. It is a hard concept to grasp, but, it is difficult to generate power when nose to nose with someone. Sanchin, if done correctly, will teach you to send power down to the ground and back up and out. If you try to generate power close in with just upper body power, it will not work, because you are to close. Send it down and let it rebound back up and your power will be magnified greatly.  

Someone asked in a past post, "where did sanchin come from", it was brought back from China.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2012)

seasoned said:


> IMHO, sanchin teaches one to generate power while in very close to your opponent. It is a hard concept to grasp, but, it is difficult to generate power when nose to nose with someone. Sanchin, if done correctly, will teach you to send power down to the ground and back up and out. If you try to generate power close in with just upper body power, it will not work, because you are to close. Send it down and let it rebound back up and your power will be magnified greatly.



Must be why I love Sanchin so much.  I always try to get in close and crowd my opponent sparring.  I don't do it consciously, I just do it.  Get in close and hammer away.  I'm not afraid to take one to give two.  And I love to jam a kick when I can.  I don't doubt I could use a lot of help generating more power in close, but I'm pretty strong; I hit like a train.  I can only imagine what I could do if I could generate more power from the ground.


----------



## K-man (Apr 13, 2012)

Bill, we saw your kata before and I made a couple of comments.  If you look at the kata that* Ballen *posted, you will see the differences I was referring to.     :asian:


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 13, 2012)

K-man said:


> Bill, we saw your kata before and I made a couple of comments.  If you look at the kata that* Ballen *posted, you will see the differences I was referring to.     :asian:



I did look at it and I do see the differences.  We honestly don't do the 'hip flip' in our dojo.  We just tuck the tailbone, the back is supposed to be straight.  I also went back to the dojo and took a good look at my foot placement; I'm heel-toe, it just looks like I'm taking a longer stance because of the angle of the camera and the fact that my stance is shoulder-width for me; I've got wide shoulders.  We are also not tense through the entire kata.  The slow punches are relaxed; the tenseness comes at the end of each punch and then as each punch turns into a block, so two clenches as we step forward.  You can't see it, but I am clenching not just my arm muscles but also from my hara; it's like dropping my wind when I get ready to take a punch.  Chinkuchi?

But I'm not making excuses; I'm no expert and need a lot of work on all my kata.  I just know we don't do the hip flip; it's been discussed and the answer was no, don't do that.  I was told that it was present at one time, but was taken out.


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2012)

My understanding is that Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version. 

Here is one version:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y

For those versed in Goju kata you will see elements of  Sanchin and Tensho kata in the movements.

Kanro Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi both studied White Crane in China and both brought back a version of Sanchin that the taught to their respective students.  

Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin:    www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0

You will notice a similarity between this and the kata posted earlier by Bill (the Chinese one). 

 I have trawled YouTube to find someone performing the Higaonna version but can seem to find one when I need it. I'll just have to describe it.  It is similar to the Miyagi version but incorporates two turns.  Now both the Higaonna version and the Miyagi version differ from the Uechi version in that Miyagi went from the open hand nukite strike to the closed fist. Also, all these versions locked up the body far more than you see in the kata posted by Bill.

The Chinese kata was striking with the finger tips. This ties in with DimMak, striking to vital points. The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing.  Hence my comment in an earlier post when I alluded to Ki in Sanchin. The main difference though, is that the Goju Ryu variants utilise a much more compact body structure and the head is directly above the straight spine.  

Here is the Jundokan version.   



       :asian:


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2012)

U





Bill Mattocks said:


> We honestly don't do the 'hip flip' in our dojo.  We just tuck the tailbone, the back is supposed to be straight.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by 'hip flip'.  Looking at Morio Higaonna I think you mean the move where he is drawing in to lock his pelvis.  It's not something that we do as a particular move. Once in the Sanchin stance the body locks. Your tucking the tail bone equates to straightening the lower spine.
> 
> ...


As to how you perform your kata, it is up to you and what you want to get from it.  There is no right or wrong as you will find that all styles have made their version a little different.  I just teach the Jundokan version.    :asian:


----------



## seasoned (Apr 14, 2012)

Sorry to say I lost my post, computer is messing up. I will try again........


----------



## seasoned (Apr 14, 2012)

K-man said:


> My understanding is that *Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system* and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version.




I agree. "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" (Martial Power and Qigong] is a good book to explain much.




> Here is one version:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y





> For those versed in Goju kata you will see elements of  Sanchin and Tensho kata in the movements.
> 
> *Kanro Higaonna and Kanbun Uechi both studied White Crane in China and both brought back a version of Sanchin that the taught to their respective students.*



Also my understanding.





> Uechi Ryu version of Sanchin:    www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7YDkZrJ-V0
> 
> You will notice a similarity between this and the kata posted earlier by Bill (the Chinese one).
> 
> I have trawled YouTube to find someone performing the Higaonna version but can seem to find one when I need it. I'll just have to describe it.  It is similar to the Miyagi version but *incorporates two turns*.  Now both the Higaonna version and the Miyagi version differ from the Uechi version in that Miyagi went from the open hand nukite strike to the closed fist. Also, all these versions locked up the body far more than you see in the kata posted by Bill.


I understand that the 2 turns were there in the beginning but were left out during a demo because the back of the person doing sanchin was turned toward Miyagi. This caught on and Miyagi sanchin was born. Some feel the turns hold a key to sanchin, and this is why I teach both, but I do focus on the turns for a specific reason within the kata



> The Chinese kata was striking with the finger tips. This ties in with DimMak, striking to vital points. The other thing is that the *Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking* *that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing*.  Hence my comment in an earlier post when I alluded to *Ki in Sanchin*. The main difference though, is that the Goju Ryu variants utilise a much more compact body structure and the head is directly above the straight spine.


I do feel that the tension within sanchin has to do more with the body ground connection and as a means of developing power and structure, and once it is transfered to our kata there is a fine line between the Go and the Ju. I'm not saying they are two different entities, but that the secrets lie within the blending of the two. 

Here is the Jundokan version.   



       :asian: 



[/QUOTE]


----------



## seasoned (Apr 14, 2012)

K-man said:


> My understanding is that Sanchin kata came from the White Crane system and from, in particular, a kata called Happoren. The version I have was Hohan Soken's version.
> 
> Here is one version:  www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSLMDvsp7_Y
> 
> ...



The book "The Essence of Shaolin White Crane" (Martial Power and Qigong) gives much insight into sanchin and the effects the kata has on goju that sometimes is not taught while learning sanchin kata. I believe sanchin as with all kata, have an infancy stage that does not come to full understanding until after BB, where you learn what you have learned.
I did learn both sanchin, with turns and without. I do both but I tend toward the turning version and teach it that way also. I feel that the turns hold a key to hip movement that enhances power transfer. Miyagi did drop the turns because of a demo he did, and he did not want backs turned while he watched the kata preformed, and from there it just caught on.
*This statement by k-man is an element sometimes left to the student for fear of confusion. "The other thing is that the Chinese kata demonstrates a shaking that is to do with transmission of energy as in fajing".
The above statement is intricate to sanchin development, IMO.
*


----------



## seasoned (Apr 14, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I did look at it and I do see the differences.  We honestly don't do the *'hip flip' *in our dojo.  We just *tuck the tail bone,* *the back is supposed to be straight*.  I also went back to the dojo and took a good look at my foot placement; I'm heel-toe, it just looks like I'm taking a longer stance because of the angle of the camera and the fact that my stance is shoulder-width for me; I've got wide shoulders.  We are also not tense through the entire kata.  The slow punches are relaxed; the tenseness comes at the end of each punch and then as each punch turns into a block, so two clenches as we step forward.  You can't see it, but I am clenching not just my arm muscles but also from my hara; it's like dropping my wind when I get ready to take a punch.  Chinkuchi?
> 
> But I'm not making excuses; I'm no expert and need a lot of work on all my kata.  I just know we don't do the hip flip; it's been discussed and the answer was no, don't do that.  I was told that it was present at one time, but was taken out.


I feel the two highlighted parts above are part of the essence of the teachings of sanchin. Not so much the "hip flip" as you state, but, the tuck the tail bone "pelvic tilt" part which transfers the power down to the ground, and allows it to bounce and rebound up through a straight spine, with a tucked chin. With our structure intact it gives a direct route through our body allowing power transfer from ground to opponent. The way our hips move needs to be investigated over a long time to feel the shake and tremble in the hips needed to start the whole action. Power starts in the hips but goes down then up, allowing us to generate close in power. Think on it because it can be very hard to digest all at once.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 14, 2012)

K-man said:


> UAs to how you perform your kata, it is up to you and what you want to get from it.  There is no right or wrong as you will find that all styles have made their version a little different.  I just teach the Jundokan version.    :asian:



Yes, I was referring to that little 'thing' as a hip-flip.  I've heard it also called a 'pelvic thrust'.  It looks mildly obscene - no disrespect to anyone intended! 

As to our arm extensions, they are done with power; one test of our Sanchin is for someone to oppose the arms as they come out.  The power behind the extension must be rooted in the ground or it's pure upper body muscle, which shows up as the karateka performing the kata will push his own upper body backwards when the punches are opposed.  But although they are done with power, they are not done under tension, if that makes any sense.

We perform two types of Sanchin in our dojo.  There is an 'Isshin-Ryu' version with the vertical fist and traditional Isshin-Ryu blocks.  In that version, the four gouges at the end are more gouges; in the other version we do (which I did in the video), we attempt to honor Goju-Ryu and we use the twisting punch and traditional blocks.  In that version, the gouges are more of a separation; as if we were running our hands up the sides of a clay pot, putting our fingers into the mouth of the pot, and pulling it apart.  I tend to prefer the Goju version we do; I don't know why.

I have been told that Sanchin is a lifetime study.  Easy to learn the moves, very difficult to master the 'three battles'. You can test the physical part; you can maybe even test the mental part.  How do you test the spiritual part except by knowing it yourself?  I'm nowhere close to that.  I have been told of a well-regarded sensei who has been doing Sanchin for over 30 years and feels he has done it 'right' twice.

So I keep practicing!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Apr 14, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I feel the two highlighted parts above are part of the essence of the teachings of sanchin. Not so much the "hip flip" as you state, but, the tuck the tail bone "pelvic tilt" part which transfers the power down to the ground, and allows it to bounce and rebound up through a straight spine, with a tucked chin. With our structure intact it gives a direct route through our body allowing power transfer from ground to opponent. The way our hips move needs to be investigated over a long time to feel the shake and tremble in the hips needed to start the whole action. Power starts in the hips but goes down then up, allowing us to generate close in power. Think on it because it can be very hard to digest all at once.



Thank you, I will be thinking about it a lot.  As mentioned, it's one of my favorite katas and I have no doubt I'll be doing it the rest of my life in one form or another.


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> As to our arm extensions, they are done with power; one test of our Sanchin is for someone to oppose the arms as they come out.  The power behind the extension must be rooted in the ground or it's pure upper body muscle, which shows up as the karateka performing the kata will push his own upper body backwards when the punches are opposed.  But although they are done with power, they are not done under tension, if that makes any sense.


 Exactly, but you can also look at it as an extension of Ki.


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2012)

seasoned said:


> I did learn both sanchin, with turns and without. I do both but I tend toward the turning version and teach it that way also. I feel that the turns hold a key to hip movement that enhances power transfer. Miyagi did drop the turns because of a demo he did, and he did not want backs turned while he watched the kata preformed, and from there it just caught on.*
> *


in the turning version, how many steps do you take after the turns?


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Apr 14, 2012)

puunui said:


> Would the practice of sanchin help those who study taekwondo, in your  opinion? If so, in what way? Has sanchin practice help to develop your aikido?  If so, in what way?



Are you referring to the Goju Ryu version or the Ueichi Ryu/Pangainoon version?  In either regard, the answer is yes.  As far as the Ueichi Ryu version, it is a fantastic physical conditioning kata.  Trained in the Ueichi Ryu manner, it is also a tremendous body conditioning kata.  A normal Dan test can consist of 4 practitioners on all four sides of the testee.  As the testee performs the kata, the four practitioners are striking/kicking the testee.  This promotes body hardness as well as tests the focus of the testee.  It also promotes power from and within the testee.

There is a book by Kris Wilder entitled, "The Way of Sanchin Kata, The Application of Power".  It leans more towards the Goju Ryu version, but many elements are applicable to the Ueichi Ryu version as well.

A couple of Ueichi Ryu videos;


----------



## seasoned (Apr 14, 2012)

K-man said:


> in the turning version, how many steps do you take after the turns?


2 turns, three steps.


----------



## K-man (Apr 14, 2012)

seasoned said:


> 2 turns, three steps.


Same, same! Proper Higaonna version vs the abridged Goju Kai one.     :asian:


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Apr 15, 2012)

Sanchin can be a great benefit for any Martial Artists. They are a few systems of Karate that practice Sanchin Kata. Having its roots from White crane boxing of Southern China, Sanchin translates as three battles of the mind, body and spirit. It helps the practitioner to stay rooted in stances, improve stamina, and spiritually prepare you for a physical confrontation, improving your mushin. 

I recommend those of you to read The Way of Sanchin Kata by Kris Wilder. It's a very informative book.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Apr 15, 2012)

K-man said:


> Same, same! Proper Higaonna version vs the abridged Goju Kai one.     :asian:



It is interesting to note that the Uechi Ryu version has some minor differences as well.  I'm not sure where and when they came in, mainly with the amount of steps and the number or turns.


----------



## K-man (Apr 15, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> It is interesting to note that the Uechi Ryu version has some minor differences as well.  I'm not sure where and when they came in, mainly with the amount of steps and the number or turns.


Easily explained. Kanbon Uechi and Kanro Higaonna both studied Kung Fu in the Fukien region of China and learned different versions.  (See post #31)


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Apr 15, 2012)

What I meant was that I've seen some variation between the various Uechi Sanchin.  But yes, you're correct with the difference between Goju and Uechi.  The Kris Wilder book is more towards Goju, but still a good read for the Uechi practitioner.


----------



## K-man (Apr 15, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> What I meant was that I've seen some variation between the various Uechi Sanchin.  But yes, you're correct with the difference between Goju and Uechi.  The Kris Wilder book is more towards Goju, but still a good read for the Uechi practitioner.


Sorry. I misread your post.  Thought you were talking about variation between styles rather than within styles.  Within Goju there are many differences between the different schools as well.   :asian:


----------



## RobinTKD (Apr 19, 2012)

If i wanted to learn sanchin but didn't have an instructor to learn from, how would i go about it?


----------



## dancingalone (Apr 19, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> If i wanted to learn sanchin but didn't have an instructor to learn from, how would i go about it?



No can do.  If you want to learn the basic choreography from out of a book or video, I don't think there's any harm to that so long as you don't actually try to DO the form.  If you do, you'll inevitably groove in some bad habits that will have to be unlearned later.  There's a little bit of value in knowing the choreography, so you can at least get the mental memorization out of the way until you secure correct instruction in person, assuming they teach the same version you memorized.


----------



## RobinTKD (Apr 19, 2012)

dancingalone said:


> No can do.  If you want to learn the basic choreography from out of a book or video, I don't think there's any harm to that so long as you don't actually try to DO the form.  If you do, you'll inevitably groove in some bad habits that will have to be unlearned later.  There's a little bit of value in knowing the choreography, so you can at least get the mental memorization out of the way until you secure correct instruction in person, assuming they teach the same version you memorized.



That's what i thought, there's a wado ryu class near to me, do they teach sanchin?


----------



## K-man (Apr 19, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> That's what i thought, there's a wado ryu class near to me, do they teach sanchin?


It would probably be better if you could find a good Goju class as it is the basis of their whole practice.


----------



## dancingalone (Apr 19, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> That's what i thought, there's a wado ryu class near to me, do they teach sanchin?



Not in the Wado I'm most familiar with (Eastern US Wado-ryu Fed).  Karate styles that have a variant of Sanchin include Goju, Uechi, Isshin, Kyokushin.


----------



## RobinTKD (Apr 19, 2012)

Well Goju was what I studied very briefly before the instructor emigrated, I'll look to see if I can find another class.


----------



## chinto (Apr 20, 2012)

Please get good instruction from a KNOWLEDGEABLE SENSEI in a nahate type style before practicing Sanchin kata.   doing the kata wrongly, or not in harmany with your age and things may lead to serious health problems!! hypertension is only the least of these!


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (May 13, 2012)

There are many different versions of Sanchin, some of the versions practice and teach it with open hands and others, most likely in Karate teach it closed hands. I have learned the Kanryo Higaonna version of Sanchin where there turns in the kata. The Chojun Miyagi version has a the pattern of going forward and back.

Here is a video of featuring the Martial Art masters demonstrating their version of Sanchin kata:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&list=PLCB270EA3114E6AD7&index=17&feature=plpp_video


----------



## K-man (May 13, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> There are many different versions of Sanchin, some of the versions practice and teach it with open hands and others, most likely in Karate teach it closed hands. I have learned the Kanryo Higaonna version of Sanchin where there turns in the kata. The Chojun Miyagi version has a the pattern of going forward and back.
> 
> Here is a video of featuring the Martial Art masters demonstrating their version of Sanchin kata:
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWh-uhw4C9s&list=PLCB270EA3114E6AD7&index=17&feature=plpp_video


Interesting to see four masters lined up together to demonstrate one kata in the different ways.  

As was said in the commentary, closing the hands is a recent thing (early 1900s). Even the turning form (Higaonna) has been changed by Yamaguchi to a slightly shorter variation.    :asian:


----------



## punisher73 (May 14, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> There are many different versions of Sanchin, some of the versions practice and teach it with open hands and others, most likely in Karate teach it closed hands. I have learned the Kanryo Higaonna version of Sanchin where there turns in the kata. The Chojun Miyagi version has a the pattern of going forward and back.



From accounts I have read from early Okinawan karatekas, Sanchin was not a "set in stone" practice.  In Uechi, for example, you would just go forward until you got to the end of the dojo and then turned and went back.  It was not a prescribed amount of steps forward.  Also, students would start with both the right or the left side, and not always on one side.   I think the number of steps became more concrete to conserve space and Miyagi changed the turns to stepping backwards because it was harder in his opinion to move back and wanted students to practice that.

Here is a question for discussion (someone asked about Sanchin benefitting their TKD practice):

If you took the template of Sanchin.  Step foward, punch rear hand etc.  And changed the stances & punches to correspond to your own styles way of moving.  Then incorporated the Sanchin (ibuki) breathing and dynamic tension in it.  Would you reap the same benefits?  IMO, Sanchin teaches the core principles of those styles (Naha-te based), so if we picked the core stepping/punching aspects of TKD, do you think it would reinforce those ideas and help out the student in the same way?


----------



## dancingalone (May 14, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> Here is a question for discussion (someone asked about Sanchin benefitting their TKD practice):
> 
> If you took the template of Sanchin.  Step foward, punch rear hand etc.  And changed the stances & punches to correspond to your own styles way of moving.  Then incorporated the Sanchin (ibuki) breathing and dynamic tension in it.  Would you reap the same benefits?  IMO, Sanchin teaches the core principles of those styles (Naha-te based), so if we picked the core stepping/punching aspects of TKD, do you think it would reinforce those ideas and help out the student in the same way?



For Kukkiwon TKD, I suspect not.  They train to deliver force through speed and dynamic acceleration foremost.


----------



## seasoned (May 14, 2012)

*Pattern of the kata Sanchin is not as important as what is going on inward. The above needs to be thought on...............*


----------



## Tez3 (May 14, 2012)

RobinTKD said:


> That's what i thought, there's a wado ryu class near to me, do they teach sanchin?



Wado does Seishan.
http://www.wadokai.co.uk/technical_video_kata/seishan_instructional.php


----------



## Gentle Fist (May 14, 2012)

Sanchin is a form taught at the Nidan level in Nick Cerio's Kenpo.  Pretty easy to learn but hard to master


----------



## K-man (May 14, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Wado does Seishan.
> http://www.wadokai.co.uk/technical_video_kata/seishan_instructional.php


Doesn't look much like the Okinawan forms. Possibly this is because Wadu Ryu has its roots in jujutsu with influences from Shotokan and Shito Ryu rather than the link back to Fujien and the Crane systems.

As to the question, "Would Goju Ryu Sanchin help in other styles, particularly TKD?"  With further thought ...  probably not.  Certainly it will help to develop core stability but the fundamentals of body structure of the different martial arts are significantly different. 

An analogy might be; I have a regular Ford car. It does all I normally want, but one day I see a Ferrari F1 racing car and its steering wheel is different.  It has buttons and levers to do all sorts of things. So I take my perfectly serviceable Ford steering wheel off my Ford car and attach a new Ferrari F1 steering wheel. Now my new Ferrari steering wheel steers the car but the buttons and levers don't do anything. They are not connected to the car. In fact my Ford doesn't have the features of the Ferrari.

With Goju Ryu Sanchin kata, the 'steering wheel' develops core strength. This is the common link to TKD, Shotokan, Judo and many other martial arts.  Now we look at the buttons and levers. First button is the positioning of the feet. 
Most karate styles will have a form of Sanchin dachi or three point stance. TKD does not have this stance as it has no need for a grappling stance. Even Hapkido's short stance is totally different. Sanchin dachi is the foundation of Sanchin kata. So now we have basically just karate that can use the first button.

Second button, vertical body alignment. COG above midpoint of base, hips above same point, and shoulders, and head.
Third button, sink your weight with knees slightly bent.
Fourth button, straighten spine by tilting hips.
First lever, arms come up into position of Chudan uke. Biceps and triceps tucked against the pecs, fist clenched at or just below shoulder height.
Fifth button, shoulders packed down.
Second lever, fist is drawn back toward the shoulder as far as it will go, then elbow continues back drawing the fist into carriage beside the ribs.
Third lever, arm is extended forward with dynamic tension, fist rotating as arm nears full extension.
Etc, etc, etc.

Each button or lever activated that does not connect to the system is like the Ferrari wheel. The further you get from Goju, the less relevent the buttons and levers.

The positioning of the arm in Goju is the same basic structure throughout the whole Guju system.  This is different in the other styles, so changing the arm to suit a different system is unlikely to work without weakening the basic structure. 

The breathing in Sanchin is important but could it even be over-rated?  The breathing passed down by Miyagi is much softer than the breathing in say Goju Kai. The breathing in the Crane systems is softer again. 

I guess this post raises more questions than it gives answers, but Sanchin is an incredibly complex beast.    :asian:


----------



## punisher73 (May 15, 2012)

K-man said:


> *Doesn't look much like the Okinawan forms. Possibly this is because Wado Ryu has its roots in jujutsu with influences from Shotokan and Shito Ryu rather than the link back to Fujien and the Crane systems.
> 
> *The positioning of the arm in Goju is the same basic structure throughout the whole Guju system. This is different in the other styles, so changing the arm to suit a different system is unlikely to work without weakening the basic structure.
> 
> I guess this post raises more questions than it gives answers, but Sanchin is an incredibly complex beast. :asian:



The Wado-Ryu version of Seishan shown reminds me very much of the Isshin-Ryu version of the form.  It is kind of an upper body Shorin and a lower body Goju.

As to the rest of your post, it is very spot on.  But, I would like to point out that Uechi uses different mechanics and breathing as applicable to their style, same with the other versions of the style.  So the question really does become, if you changed the physical template to reflect your styles mechanics would it benefit them.

The other aspect is that for some styles the aspect on the dynamic tension is VERY important and leads to what the okinawans refer to as "Chinkuchi".  Here is an article from an Isshin-Ryu standpoint on it.
http://www.msisshinryu.com/articles/safreed/chinkuchi.shtml


----------



## K-man (May 15, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> The Wado-Ryu version of Seishan shown reminds me very much of the Isshin-Ryu version of the form.  It is kind of an upper body Shorin and a lower body Goju.
> 
> As to the rest of your post, it is very spot on.  But, I would like to point out that Uechi uses different mechanics and breathing as applicable to their style, same with the other versions of the style.  So the question really does become, if you changed the physical template to reflect your styles mechanics would it benefit them.
> 
> ...



Kanbon Uechi brought his version of Sanchin back from China as did Higaonna.  Hence they both developed their version to fit their style.  Both were Kung Fu masters so they both understood the application of the Crane system.

Others who have taken the system and modified it to suit themselves have not had the same experience. Therein lies the difficulty in trying to change it to suit a different style.  They may have been better off going back to the Crane system and taking from that what suits best.

Your article is interesting in its reference to 'Ki'.  That is exactly what I have been training in my aikido to incorporate in my karate, exactly as described in the article.  Over the years I have been informed many times that Ki doesn't exist. Funny that.   



> "Chinkuchi is the essence of isshin-ryu," Advincula says.  "The entire system is built around it."  This is illustrated in sanchin kata, which is practiced to cultivate and control ki through proper breathing methods.     Because he feels proper balance, coupled with maximum energy, is the key to victory, Advincula stresses chinkuchi when teaching self-defense and close-combat fighting. * "Disrupt your opponent's ki, and you have won the battle," Advincula states.  If you control not only your chinkuchi, but also that of your opponent, you control your destiny."*​


 So very true.    :asian:


----------



## punisher73 (May 15, 2012)

K-man, check your messages.


----------



## miguksaram (May 15, 2012)

I have always enjoyed Sanchin kata.  We practice it in the Shorei-ryu system at the 4th Kyu level.  Our version is closed fist and going back and forth, instead of just straight forward.  It is one of my favorite kata to run.  I cannot say I have a full understanding of the its entire benefits but definitely something I feel can be utilized in different systems of martial arts.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (May 21, 2012)

In Pangainoon/Uechi Ryu, Sanchin is the first kata that is taught.  It also forms, as per the videos I posted on page 2, a substantial portion of a Dan test.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (May 26, 2012)

K-man said:


> Interesting to see four masters lined up together to demonstrate one kata in the different ways.
> 
> As was said in the commentary, closing the hands is a recent thing (early 1900s). Even the turning form (Higaonna) has been changed by Yamaguchi to a slightly shorter variation.    :asian:



Yeah, that's true, I have first learned Yamaguchi's version of Sanchin before learning the Higaonna version.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (May 26, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> From accounts I have read from early Okinawan karatekas, Sanchin was not a "set in stone" practice.  In Uechi, for example, you would just go forward until you got to the end of the dojo and then turned and went back.  It was not a prescribed amount of steps forward.  Also, students would start with both the right or the left side, and not always on one side.   I think the number of steps became more concrete to conserve space and Miyagi changed the turns to stepping backwards because it was harder in his opinion to move back and wanted students to practice that.



I remember reading or maybe hearing that the reason Miyagi changed the pattern for Sanchin from the turns to moving forward and back was because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on your Sensei while he's testing your base and proper tightness. Or maybe Miyagi's students change the kata because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on a Sensei.


----------



## rickster (May 26, 2012)

Ryuei-ryu/Kenko Nakaima, which seems to predate, slightly, Goju/Kanryo Higaonna-Chojun Miyagi, although there is more likihood that they exchanged training. Interesting to note, and that the &#8220;Ti&#8221; styles also used a soft version called &#8220; Moto-te. Some Shorin styles also called Sanchin; &#8220;Kuma di&#8221;.  The most famous from the Shorin lineage is Gichin Funakoshi. As it had been stated, according to some scholars, Sanchin is morel likely transmitted to Okinawan Masters from Chinese Boxing, some suspect from Fuchou, or White Crane

Sanchin was likely to have come from Chinese Saam Chien/Chan. Scholars believe that even Kanryo himself visited Fouchou and returned with its practice. Saam Chien/Sanchin, is also known as the Hour Glass and/or the Triple Jewel. Although commonly known as &#8220;Three Battles&#8221; (Interesting to note that &#8220;San&#8221; can translate as &#8220;Three&#8221

While other scholars, believe it had been passed from Buddhist Mandala practices helping condition the body for long hours of meditation.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 16, 2012)

So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.

*Sanchin *is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three _sets _of elements at the same time: 


The mind, body and the techniques
The internal organs, circulation and the nervous system, and
The three *ki*, located in: the top of the head, (_tento_), the diaphragm (_har_a), and the lower abdomen (_tanden_)

Kyokushin_ Sanchin, _and sanchin in general, are isometric katas, where each move is performed in a state of complete tension, accompanied by powerful, deep breathing (_ibuki_) that originates in the lower abdomen (_tan den_). The practice of Sanchin kata not only leads to the strengthening of the body, but it also aims at the development of inner power (_ki_) and the coordination of mind and body. It also emphasizes basic footwork, hand techniques as well as basic blocking techniques, and a fair amount of strategy: it not only teaches overall breath control, but is a tool of learning _in no dori,_ to move in while an attacker is inhaling, or at the moment in between inhalation and exhalation. It, along with the kata _tensho_-what many consider the sister to _sanchin_-teaches the use of the rotation of the hand and wrist, leading and redirecting an opponent, and adding one&#8217;s power to their own.

One can find several versions of this kata performed, with and without the tension-including more than one Chinese form called &#8220;Three Battles,&#8221; related to White Crane, Here&#8217;s a _really cool_ video I found of Morio Higaonna of Goju ryu, Shin Gushi of Uechi ryu/pangainoon, and two Chinese masters I&#8217;m completely unfamiliar with., Chen Jian Feng and a Master Pan, each demonstrating their respective version:






And here&#8217;s Shin Gushi, performing Uechi ryu&#8217;s sanchin kata, again:






Here&#8217;s the kyokushin version I learned as a kid-a bit more _apparent_ tension than most other forms, but not really any tenser:






And Morio Hagionna, of Goju ryu, again:






Here&#8217;s Angi Uezi performing Isshin ryu&#8217;s sanchin kata, with tension:





but I&#8217;ve also seen Isshin ryu people do it without tension.

And here&#8217;s Toyama Seiko, another Uechi ryu master, performing another kata, at the age of 74:







I posted the last video to demonstrate what several of these gentlemen show, though_, the true benefit of sanchin kata_: vigor and strength into old age. Strength and vitality throughout one&#8217;s life are intimately tied to breathing and breath control, and this practice-_done properly as part of an overall training program_-contributes to longevity and vitality. I&#8217;m living proof of that-I&#8217;m not supposed to be breathing at all, at this age, or even to have reached this age, never mind still be breathing pretty darned well. I happen to know that Shin Gushi, who was about 68 when his video was done, smokes like a chimney. I also learned the Uechi version from my friend, Andre Tippett, about 25 years ago, and I practice both forms. I believe the open hands are the original martial application, and also allow for better _ki_ development and flow, and think that the form should also be practiced without tension on occasion-_but that&#8217;s just me, and *what do I know?*_


----------



## rickster (Jun 16, 2012)

Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?


----------



## seasoned (Jun 17, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?


To an extent pertaining to principles, yes.


----------



## Black Belt Jedi (Jun 17, 2012)

rickster said:


> Could Sanchin have roots all the way to India/Buddhist esoteric studies?



Maybe, even further back to Ethiopia, Egypt and throughout Western Asia had put emphasis on breathing exercises.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2012)

Black Belt Jedi said:


> I remember reading or maybe hearing that the reason Miyagi changed the pattern for Sanchin from the turns to moving forward and back was because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on your Sensei while he's testing your base and proper tightness. Or maybe Miyagi's students change the kata because he felt it was disrespectful to turn your back on a Sensei.



Probably urban legend, the story that I had read was that there were no katas that had stepping back in them, so Miyagi wanted to add that since it is more difficult to move back in proper stance.

As for the turning, from stories I have read from various lineages in Okinawa that practice the kata.  There were no set amounts of stepping before turning, for example three steps foward turn etc.  You just stepped forward from one side of the dojo until the other and then turned around and then went back to the other side, however many times your instructor wanted you too.  The reason I point that out is that it was a very common way to practice it, for a very long time.  So I don't think that the Miyagi version took out the turns for that reason alone.  I think it was more to practice stepping back.


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> So, this took a little while for me to prepare, sorry, but I still wanted to share it.
> 
> *Sanchin *is thought to be the oldest kata in karate. It literally means "three battles" or "three conflicts", and it can also be translated as "three points" or "three phases Sanchin kata seeks to develop three _sets _of elements at the same time:
> 
> ...



Great post.  Only one thing to nitpick.  Sanchin is a dynamic tension exercise and not isometric.  Isometric is pitting the muscle against an immovable object (like pushing against a wall) and there is no range of motion at all.  Dynamic tension is the flexing and pitting the muscles against each other through a range of motion.

What's interesting, is that even on Okinawa there was disagreement as to the benefits of Sanchin.  It was very common for the Shorin based styles to say that Sanchin led to health problems (hemmoroids for one, high blood pressure, etc.) and an early death. 

The open vs. closed hand that Kanryo Higaonna did had to do with the lethality of the kata.  Uechi-Ryu still uses the spearhand strike (and other configurations) to "up the lethality" of what they do.  Higaonna supposedly changed it to closed hands and the breathing pattern to emphasize the health aspects more, and the closed hands because most of the okinawans he taught used the closed fist when fighting.  I have also hear that the closed fist keeps in the internal energy, and on the other side that closing the fist cuts off the internal energy, so both sides are in disagreement on that one as well.  I have heard some reports that it was Miyagi that closed the hands, but in interview I have read from Juhatsu Sensei of To'on Ryu (another close student of Higaonna) he stated that Higaonna always taugh the kata with closed hands, so I think that it is more likely that Miyagi did not make that change.


----------



## elder999 (Jun 18, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> As for the turning, from stories I have read from various lineages in Okinawa that practice the kata. There were no set amounts of stepping before turning, for example three steps foward turn etc. You just stepped forward from one side of the dojo until the other and then turned around and then went back to the other side, however many times your instructor wanted you too. The reason I point that out is that it was a very common way to practice it, for a very long time. So I don't think that the Miyagi version took out the turns for that reason alone. I think it was more to practice stepping back.



Well, I've got a pet question that I use to remind my students all the time, though it means something different for karate kata, it's pretty relevant to this conversation:

_Where is your opponent?_

And consider the martial application of the turn in terms of _seasoned_'s post on spinal flex and grounding. :wink:


----------



## punisher73 (Jun 18, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Well, I've got a pet question that I use to remind my students all the time, though it means something different for karate kata, it's pretty relevant to this conversation:
> 
> _Where is your opponent?_
> 
> And consider the martial application of the turn in terms of _seasoned_'s post on spinal flex and grounding. :wink:



I agree.  I think the turn is done in a specific way to learn a specific lesson, it just wasn't a set amount of steps when training Sanchin as to _when _you do the turn other than running out of space.  I just meant that the turn wasn't taken out soley because it was rude to turn your back to your instructor.  In Goju-Ryu, there are other katas that practice that type of turning, so you aren't losing the lesson by taking it out of Sanchin.  But, Sanchin is the only one that comes to mind that has you stepping back like that, and I think that is more reasonable to assume for the change.


----------



## K-man (Jun 18, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> In Goju-Ryu, there are other katas that practice that type of turning, so you aren't losing the lesson by taking it out of Sanchin.  But, Sanchin is the only one that comes to mind that has you stepping back like that, and I think that is more reasonable to assume for the change.


Tensho perhaps?


----------



## seasoned (Jun 19, 2012)

There is always a "to each their own". 
Sanchin taught one thing, while Tensho another.
Sanchin is the teaching of principles, while kata and the drills are more on the application side of it.......


----------



## seasoned (Jun 19, 2012)

elder999 said:


> Well, I've got a pet question that I use to remind my students all the time, though it means something different for karate kata, it's pretty relevant to this conversation:
> 
> _Where is your opponent?_
> 
> And consider the martial application of the turn in terms of _seasoned_'s post on spinal flex and grounding. :wink:


It seems were on the same page............


----------



## seasoned (Jun 19, 2012)

While considering Sanchin and the transfer of power being taught, consider different kinds of power. 
While turning in Sanchin, although there are martial principles of throwing involved, a manifestation of whipping power can be detected.


----------



## K-man (Jun 19, 2012)

seasoned said:


> While considering Sanchin and the transfer of power being taught, consider different kinds of power.
> While turning in Sanchin, although there are martial principles of throwing involved, a manifestation of whipping power can be detected.


I feel that the turns in Sanchin are more about dynamic tension and maintaining centre. Most certainly there is transfer of power, but the whipping or throwing turns, for me, are in all the other kata, not so much in Sanchin.      :asian:


----------



## seasoned (Jun 19, 2012)

K-man said:


> I feel that the turns in Sanchin are more about dynamic tension and maintaining centre. Most certainly there is transfer of power, but the whipping or throwing turns, for me, are in all the other kata, not so much in Sanchin.      :asian:


I'm not looking at individual techniques in Sanchin, only the principles that make all else happen in the other kata. We have to be able to point back to Sanchin as the magnification of such principles. As you know a principle is such that it teaches the proper movement of MANY techniques.


----------



## Cirdan (Jul 10, 2012)

Facinating thread! I did not know there were so many variations of Sanchin out there.

I guess I am one of few Wadokas who practice this kata, as far as I know it is not part of the Wado curriculum in most places. Our school has a version very similar to the one in the link below.


----------



## K-man (Jul 10, 2012)

Cirdan said:


> Facinating thread! I did not know there were so many variations of Sanchin out there.
> 
> I guess I am one of few Wadokas who practice this kata, as far as I know it is not part of the Wado curriculum in most places. Our school has a version very similar to the one in the link below.


Very similar in the movements to Miyagi's version but totally different in the performance. It would be interesting to hear what he had to say about his understanding of the kata.


----------



## Cirdan (Jul 11, 2012)

K-man said:


> Very similar in the movements to Miyagi's version but totally different in the performance. It would be interesting to hear what he had to say about his understanding of the kata.



The folloing may be helpful in explaining the Sanchin version in the link I posted. Note that I am not associated with Steve Rowe, nor can I guarantee that what I quote below is 100% authentic. 



> Sanchin (Saam Jin) &#8211; the internal secrets to all martial arts!
> By Steve Rowe
> 
> &#8220;He huffed and he puffed, like he was going to blow my house down, then his instructor came out and battered him with kicks and punches and broke sticks all over him&#8230;&#8221;
> ...


----------



## TimoS (Jul 12, 2012)

Cirdan said:


> Chojun Miyagi was reputed to have bought the kata to Okinawa that is used in variants by the Goju Ryu, Uechi Ryu and Kyokushinkai styles of Karate. The Wado Ryu and Shotokan styles use Seishan (Shotokan call the kata Hangetsu) that is a derivative of Sanchin



Couple of things here that sort of pop out to my eyes: to my understanding, the Sanchin in Uechi is not the same as in Goju. I do think they are "related", but not the same. Also, about Seisan being a derivative of Sanchin, could be. I've heard theories of the relation being the other way round also. I think that one reason why Seisan might be considered older than Sanchin is that variations of Seisan can be found in (some) Shorin ryu schools, but Sanchin only in a few. About the rest of the article I really can't say much, because I've done Sanchin maybe once, years ago


----------



## K-man (Jul 12, 2012)

TimoS said:


> Couple of things here that sort of pop out to my eyes: to my understanding, the Sanchin in Uechi is not the same as in Goju. I do think they are "related", but not the same. Also, about Seisan being a derivative of Sanchin, could be. I've heard theories of the relation being the other way round also. I think that one reason why Seisan might be considered older than Sanchin is that variations of Seisan can be found in (some) Shorin ryu schools, but Sanchin only in a few. About the rest of the article I really can't say much, because I've done Sanchin maybe once, years ago


Certainly the Uechi Ryu and Goju Ryu Sanchin are different in many ways.  There are also many variations of Seisan. The Goju version is not really related to Sanchin although it does start out in similar fashion and it does continue the same techniques at different stages.


----------



## TimoS (Jul 12, 2012)

K-man said:


> There are also many variations of Seisan.


True, but at least I think that they all share a common root, a "proto-Seisan", that has been lost to the sands of time 


> The Goju version is not really related to Sanchin although it does start out in similar fashion and it does continue the same techniques at different stages.


If I remember the conversation correctly, the speculation was that Sanchin could be sort of a very simplified Seisan. I am familiar with Shorin Seisan, but not with Sanchin nor with Goju Seisan, so I can't say much more.


----------



## K-man (Jul 12, 2012)

TimoS said:


> True, but at least I think that they all share a common root, a "proto-Seisan", that has been lost to the sands of time
> 
> If I remember the conversation correctly, the speculation was that Sanchin could be sort of a very simplified Seisan. I am familiar with Shorin Seisan, but not with Sanchin nor with Goju Seisan, so I can't say much more.


Some time back I ordered a video on the fighting application of Seisan and when it arrived I think it was the Uechi version.  I couldn't even find a similarity.  So you may be right in saying there was once a common ancestor but I suspect it had changed markedly before Higaonna and Uechi went to Fukien in the late 1800s.   :asian:


----------



## TimoS (Jul 13, 2012)

K-man said:


> I suspect it had changed markedly before Higaonna and Uechi went to Fukien in the late 1800s.   :asian:



Yes, it must've changed quite a lot by that time. You have only to look at the Seisan kata in Shorin, Goju and Uechi and see how different they are from each other. At least I believe our Seisan comes from China also, but nobody knows what it looked like back then, whenever that was. Be that as it may, to me it's just normal evolution. Different people have different ideas what a kata should look like, so it gradually changes. This, I believe, must've happened to Sanchin also, as evidenced by e.g. how different the Goju and Uechi Sanchin are. 


---
"Look. Listen. Sweat." - Morio Higaonna

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------

