# What would you teach for airlines security



## Disco (Mar 5, 2003)

Reading the other thread about airline security, there were suggestions about arming the pilots, beefing up the cockpit door and someone touched upon giving flight crews self defense training.

Lets focus on the training. If you could, what would you teach for self defense? For example, would you go after a training and mind set of, lets say the navy seals (maximum distruction), or police restraining tactics, or just the everyday self defense tactics of a standard dojo (I know that's very generic but you know what I mean). Now just a reminder. Take into consideration the arena where the combat will take place.


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## A.R.K. (Mar 5, 2003)

One of my favorite sayings [you know which one  ] is being able to fight inside of a phone booth.  This would apply in this senerio.  I would advocate quickly incapacitating an enemy in this environment.  Far to dangerous to let things continue for an extended length of time, plus in most areas of the plane takedowns would be akward and dangerous to other passengers.

Thats my first impression.


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## Disco (Mar 5, 2003)

Incapacitation........

What would you do to achieve this?

Break bones, throat and eyes or the dim mak.......


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## A.R.K. (Mar 5, 2003)

CQC elbows and spikes will work well in this environment.  Since this is automatically level 6, lethal force is authorized and should be used immediately.

My opinion.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 5, 2003)

First thing I would teach and stress throughout the whole class/course:

Punching holes in a pressurized aircraft's skin while at altitude is a very bad idea.

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Mar 5, 2003)

I used to work for a company that did research in preventing
GLOC (gravitational loss of consciousness).  I think they should
teach the pilots how to bank so hard all passengers lose 
consciousness.  Then send a trained guy in a G-Suit to go out and
disarm, and cuff the violators.


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## Cthulhu (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *I used to work for a company that did research in preventing
> GLOC (gravitational loss of consciousness).  I think they should
> teach the pilots how to bank so hard all passengers lose
> ...



Er...is that wise to do in a 747?

Cthulhu


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## Kirk (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Cthulhu _
> *Er...is that wise to do in a 747?
> 
> Cthulhu *



LOL ... is it even possible?


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## Cthulhu (Mar 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *LOL ... is it even possible? *



Probably possible.  Once.  For a split second.  Before the plane dropped from the sky like a rock.

Cthulhu


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## Michael Billings (Mar 5, 2003)

Tommy Burks is already teaching American Airlines pilots for just this reason.  It may lead to something more, but my guess is it will be regulated by US Marshall service if actually implemented nation-wide ... they are talking about it.

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Disco (Mar 5, 2003)

Michael, please indulge me. What are the AA pilots being taught?
Is it only just the pilots and not the flight crew. If, and I repeat If, only the pilots are being trained (I'm assuming defensive tactics), it would seem from my viewpoint to be a wasted effort. Who would be the most likely crew member to have first contact with trouble. The pilot is behind a locked door, so I doubt he or she would have any impact on the immediate situation. Granted, the cockpit would be the ultimate destination for a terrorist, but should'nt he/they be stopped long before it reaches that point?
Last I heard, there was somewhat of a setback with sky marshals (just not enough to go around). 

Thanks in advance for your information.........


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## yilisifu (Mar 6, 2003)

Trying to handle an armed aggressor in an aircraft has go to be one of the worst self-defense scenarios possible.  I don't think restraining them should be foremost in the training because then you're playing by rules (trying to restrain) while the terrorist isn't.

   I would stick to techniques which allow for lethal force with small, compact movements.  Teaching these things to the flight crew is, I think, largely pointless because implementation of these techniques really requires a professional who knows what he or she is doing.


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## Michael Billings (Mar 6, 2003)

Couple of comments:

Pilots learning Kenpo - Basics for now, emphasis knees, elbows, heel palms, etc.  But not to exclude seat cushons, magazines, notebook computers, blankets, books, pens, etc.

Flight crews - excellent idea.  But the airline is not the one implementing this.  It is at the piolot's own expense.

Marshall's Service is looking up.  



> A little over a year ago, the service had a $4 million budget and 33 armed officers who flew on international flights to prevent hijackings. Today there are thousands of marshals, and the Transportation Security Administration, which oversees the service, expects to spend more than $1 billion by the end of 2003 getting them trained and deployed on U.S. flights here and overseas.
> 
> That explosive growth has taken place largely in secret while public attention has been focused on the effort to confiscate tweezers and hire new screeners at airport security checkpoints.



Lots of jobs filled, and they are still hiring.  It is not made high profile at all.  I know several people who have chosen to make this a career rather than ATF and who will bring the beer?

-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Disco (Mar 6, 2003)

Mike thanks for the info. What a shame that the pilots are forced to undertake this training on their own. I applaud them for their determination and for making the effort to protect their passengers. But this does not say anything GOOD about the airline industry. Leaving their people to fend for themselves boarders on being criminal (just my opinion). It's good to know that the marshals service has been beefed up, but I personally would like to have as many options as possible (ie. crew trained).

Thanks again for your info.


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## Cruentus (Mar 6, 2003)

Most pilots are not going to be able to (or want to) take the time needed to train in any martial art to be able to handle a terrorist who is out of his mind, and doesn't care about his own life, or the life of the other passangers.

You can do Kenpo w/ these pilots all you want, and it won't do S**T.

I say that we close off and lock the cockpit with an impenetratable door, one that resembles a door on a metal safe, perhaps, seperating the cockpit and pilots from any possible danger, period. If anything occurs, the pilots must do what they do best and land the plane safely to let the authorities take care of the problem, regardless of what the terrorist might be doing to the passangers. As much danger as the passangers might be in, as long as the cockpits are locked we greatly decrease our chances of having another sept. 11th.

A secondary precaution is to arm each flight attendent with a non-projectile weapon that has minimal risk of hurting other passangers, and needs minimal training. I would suggest a Tazer, in which the attendents would be required and paid to take an all day class on some basic close quarter combat principles, and safety and operation of the tazer. These tazers (or whatever weapon) should not be kept on the attendents person, however, but should be locked and possibly hidden in various locations on the plane. Although this lengthens the reaction time for the flight attendends to be able to try to defend the plane, it severely reduces the risk of someone taking the weapon away from the possibly weaker flight attendent when she/he is off guard. 

Yes, I know, this sounds ingenius. Guess what though, I'm sure it has been thought of. Why hasn't this perfect solution been implimented, though? Because airline companies don't want to spend the dough on building and designing special doors to the cockpit, or on that level of training and developement for their flight attendents. They have no money for this. Especially in todays economy. If you don't believe me, and the bankrupcies (and almost bankruptcies) that have occured since sept. 11 haven't convinced you of the airline funding problem, then just take a look at the starting pay for most pilots. It'll make you sick to find out that some managers and night closers at McDonalds make more then the people who are flying your planes.

So, how would we get an idea like this to work? Well, write your congressman, because government subsidies and requirements are the only thing that'll do the trick. These are some of the homeland security measures that our defense budget should be spending $$ on, as oppossed to some of the BullS*** that we spend things on now. If you only knew.....

It is my opinion also that homeland security measures that are practical (unlike our color-coding system), such as this idea and many others, are more important then any measure we take overseas.

Go tell that to our current administration, and see if they'll listen.

The scary thing is....I am flying to NYC in a couple of weeks. How much would any of you want to bet that I, or any other psycho out there could still smuggle a carbon fiber, or fiberglass knife on board (that people sell, or that you can make) that will not be detected by a metal detector, and take over a plane with little problems from security. Hopefully that will never happend. By God,  if that ever does happend, I hope the passangers will be smart enough now, knowing the possible consequences of their plane going into a building, to pact together and fight back. 
 :soapbox: 

Sorry....I don't mean to be such a downer. I just get fusterated because I see a multitude of problems that could and should be addressed with practical solutions, but haven't at all. It all has to do with certian individuals in Washington either with their thumbs up their own ***, or with their thumbs up someone elses. Anyways, not trying to get into a political discussion, so I'm not naming names of those with smelly thumbs. Just take notes, and be aware. We can't all save the world, but if you can do anything to help, such as simply voting intelligently, or writing letters to your state/reps, then I think we should excersise these powers.

I know I have.

Sincerely,
PAUL


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## Matt Stone (Mar 6, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu _
> *I would advocate quickly incapacitating an enemy in this environment. *



As opposed to incapacitating him _slowly_?

:rofl: 

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


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## DAC..florida (Mar 8, 2003)

This thread has brought out some interesting ideas that I'm sure have all been considered by the powers to be, my concern is if a terrorist  would even attack a plain again with all we know, its almost like self defence if you were to use a technique in some sort of attack and it worked would you use it again hoping your oponent wouldnt have come up with a counter? My question (fear) is if not a plain then what.


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## Cruentus (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *This thread has brought out some interesting ideas that I'm sure have all been considered by the powers to be, my concern is if a terrorist  would even attack a plain again with all we know, its almost like self defence if you were to use a technique in some sort of attack and it worked would you use it again hoping your oponent wouldnt have come up with a counter? My question (fear) is if not a plain then what. *



I'm sorry, but I'm not sure that I understand your question. Could you please explain or clarify? Thank you!


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## DAC..florida (Mar 8, 2003)

Its not really a question just a concern, In my opinion I dont see the plains being future targets. Only god knows what could be but I feel that they would be stupid to try to hit our plains.


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## Cruentus (Mar 8, 2003)

> _Originally posted by DAC..florida _
> *Its not really a question just a concern, In my opinion I dont see the plains being future targets. Only god knows what could be but I feel that they would be stupid to try to hit our plains. *



You might be right, on the one hand. But on the other hand, there have been some attempts that were snubbed by security (luckily) for Sept. 11 repeats. So....who knows.....but I sure hope that YOUR right!


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## Disco (Mar 8, 2003)

D.A.C 

Just the other day, on I think CNN, they stated that 4 gas tankers were missing in area's of the U.S. Hopefully I'm wrong with this statement, but if it's true then it could be a revamping of their (terrorists) thinking - (land planes). God I hope I'm wrong! 

It would be very simplistic to change their M.O. and very smart to do so. In any case, I don't think we have seen the last of them. It is still my opinion that the Airlines offer the most attractive targets that could do the most damage. With the current thinking of airline officials (do little - spend less, let Uncle Sam fix it), I'm sure that at some point, they will find a way to strike there again. Crew training, not just pilot training, should become mandatory. As far as arming the pilots. waste of time. As I stated before, the pilots would be the last of the crew to be confronted. It has to be stopped before it gets to the cockpit.


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 9, 2003)

Handcuff all passengers to their seats during flight, until landed.


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## Cruentus (Mar 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm _
> *Handcuff all passengers to their seats during flight, until landed.   *



That's even better. But what if I have an itch, or need to "adjust?"

I better make sure I get on the plane with cute flight attendents.

"Stewardess!!!!!!!!!!!!!" :rofl:


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## Johnathan Napalm (Mar 10, 2003)

And here comes Bubba, our new male flight attendant!  HAHA!!


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## Cruentus (Mar 10, 2003)

Isn't "Hooters" starting an airline? I think I heard a blurp of this on CNBC a month or so ago. (I have CNBC on in my office and home 24-7; no I am not kidding!)


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## Michael Billings (Mar 10, 2003)

I am flying to a camp next month in Califonia, (Insert Shameless Plug here for John Sepulveda's 1st Annual Spirit Camp), and my thought is, issue every passanger a taser, then lets see the hijacker's strategy.  

I will be taking an aisle seat, and I encourage any other professional, or heck, not professional, Martial Artist to do the same.  It is hard to do anything when you are pinned in the window seat, even though the view is better.  A lot of my law enforcement friends, who cannot carry firearms on flights, are doing the same sort of thing.  We are more likely to react than not react, with an appropriate response, is the theory.  I know I am not "going down" without a fight.  And I just hope the Air Marshall's Service is along for the ride.  They had higher scores for handgun proficiency, as a group, than other agencies.

Oss,
-Michael
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## arnisador (Aug 28, 2003)

Thread moved.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## OULobo (Aug 29, 2003)

I think it was George Carlin that said that instead of trying to keep knives from being on the plane, why not just hand one to everyone when they get on the plane.  

I think I would train them trapping because it is based on close quarters and can make good in a cramped situation. I think I would downplay the kicks because there just isn't much room to generate power with all the seats there. I agree elbows, spikes and mabey headbutts.


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