# What is a JKD certificate worth?



## Aikia

As I have read information on this site it becomes evident that there are a few who are very attatched to their JKD linage and certificates. Here is my question... In terms of monetary value, what do you feel  being "certified" to teach JKD is worth?  In other words, is anyone able to make a full time living by teaching JKD? If being "certified" to teach JKD does not lead to professional status as a full time martial arts instructor, is JKD actually a hobby oriented program for part time income? Or is JKD certification used primarly as a credential or add on for rank in other arts? I know that some are willing to spend thousands of dollars and travel long distances to earn certification. Why?
Let me add that I no longer teach JKD as a physical art but rather as a philosophical  conceptual framework for the study of martial arts. I have no attatchment to JKD, as Bruce implied let the word be deleted from your vacabulary if it causes you much anxiety. Some have become very stressed out...Why?

Dr.Jerry Beasley


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## ThuNder_FoOt

If you are speaking in terms of monetary value, I'm sure others would agree that it is solely dependant on the fame that is associated with Lee. Supply and demand. And I believe that with JKD's growing popularity, it is for this reason that many JKD certified Instructors seem to be emerging.


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## Enson

monetary value is probably self imposed. its to say that it values what it values to that person. to me or others outside of the art in might not mean much.

i have a family member who used to be a jkd practicioner under gary dill's course. he had his certificate on the wall showing that he was a member. dill tried to emphisize (sp?) that he was teaching the art in its original form. i wasn't too impressed with his stuff.

now there are some that claim jkd concepts. i just think its a big confusion and if jkd is a style then it should be more organized and developed. if its a concept... well then it should be stated as such. again all my opinions come from outside the box.

peace


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## loki09789

Aikia said:
			
		

> As I have read information on this site it becomes evident that there are a few who are very attatched to their JKD linage and certificates. Here is my question... In terms of monetary value, what do you feel being "certified" to teach JKD is worth? In other words, is anyone able to make a full time living by teaching JKD? If being "certified" to teach JKD does not lead to professional status as a full time martial arts instructor, is JKD actually a hobby oriented program for part time income? Or is JKD certification used primarly as a credential or add on for rank in other arts? I know that some are willing to spend thousands of dollars and travel long distances to earn certification. Why?
> Let me add that I no longer teach JKD as a physical art but rather as a philosophical conceptual framework for the study of martial arts. I have no attatchment to JKD, as Bruce implied let the word be deleted from your vacabulary if it causes you much anxiety. Some have become very stressed out...Why?
> 
> Dr.Jerry Beasley


Martial arts training in general usually is categorized as either "health and fitness" or "sport/recreation" or something along those lines.

Monetary value?  Calculate what you paid for lessons, gas, fees, travel, accomadations, food....in the process of earning it (like they calculate college expense) and that will lay a foundation.

The other skills that are needed to be successful as a 'professional artist' either instructing (business knowledge, financial planning, insurance, ...) would probably be more significant to 'market' profit than your martial skills IMO or as a 'professional artist' as 'stunt man/fight coordinator/competitor' (fitness, stunt training, acting, rules of the road for your 'arena'....) again will dictate your success more than just your artistic rank/skill.

"So you can dance....what are you going to do with it and how are you going to get it done?  Do you have a plan, know anyone?" is the type of conversation I would hear a career counsellor ask to help come up with a realistic outline.


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## Aikia

Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. Even first degree black belts often gross  $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.


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## loki09789

Aikia said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
> For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. Even first degree black belts often gross $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.


Trad arts like TKD/Karate are very "Beginner Friendly" because they are direct and simple (that does not mean that later in training the subtle/sophisticated elements don't come into play) to understand.

JKD, much like some other arts like Chinese/FMA arts tend to lack the clear reputation and are 'heady' early in training because of the conceptuallity that makes them distinct from karates and TKDs.  

More frustrating in the beginning and also not as many tournies for short term and overt goals for training.

It is hard to keep large groups of students when I focus on 'self defense' primarily and don't spar or do forms that will win you a trophy...nothing wrong with that type of goal, just not what I focus on.


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## James Kovacich

..Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> I think that the answer lies in the "way of Instruction" that JKD focuses on smaller groups vs. the commerialized large number of students. It's impossible to use the high numbers of students of the common commerialized karate class and expect to achieve "the ultimate reality of truth in combat."
> 
> JKD has commercialization to a certain extent but as long as the "way of no way" remains the goal, the method of teaching will remain the same.
> :asian:


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## achilles

I think Bruce Lee said something along the lines of only 1 in 10,000 will actually stick to the training of JKD.  I'm sure I didn't get that literally, but in essence I think I nailed it.  JKD, real JKD, is not easy and requires that the practitioner constantly avoid getting too comfortable.  JKD is about personal growth and evolution which can be a scary thing for people who are looking for security.

I think that when you keep the numbers small and focus on quality, it is difficult to draw the necessary student numbers to contend with the local black belt factory, but who cares?  If you are teaching JKD primarily to make money, you don't have much respect for the legacy of the founder.

As far as certificates go, I think that they may or may not mean much depending on the instructor who issues them.  A certificate, in theory, is the corporeal representation of the confidence your instructor has in you and symbolilzes the authority  he bestows  as a legitimate part of his legacy.  This model seems to me to reflect the family like structure of gung fu.  My certfication shows both my membership to the clan (and thus the authenticity of the training I claim) as well as endorsement of my Sifu.  One may be a very skilled practitioner, but that in and of itself does not entail that he is the inheritor of the clan legacy, because he was not in fact given it.  A valid, but kind of silly analogy is that of buying meat.  You can buy good meat that isn't governmentally inspected.  It may be perfectly healthy, but there is nothing to guarantee that.  Certfied meat has to meet certain guidelines, so the purchaser can be more secure in the knowledge that what he is consuming is healthy.  If I am in a new town and meet an instructor who is certified under someone whose criteria for certification I respect, I can deduce that he probably knows his stuff.  Without certification, I don't know.  He may be good at what he does, but you don't know right away.


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## Flatlander

Aikia said:
			
		

> What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.


Well, I don't know him personally, but I believe that Sifu Lamar Davis Jr. is doing just that.  I may be wrong.  You could ask him in his hardcore JKD forum @ www.realcombatonline.com , or e-mail him @ sifu@hardcorejkd.com , or check out his website @ http://www.hardcorejkd.com/


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## Aikia

I agree that JKD instruction is best designed for small groups. Please read my post to the thread...Something I have pondered.
JB


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## Enson

i have to admit it is nice to see someone of dr. beasley's experience on this forum. that being said...


i have never seen a complete jkd school. the styles are always integrated with something else. probably because bruce lee himself closed his jkd schools because he didn't want it to become a style. well at least thats what i heard. so if the "gm" didn't want this to start... maybe there should be no jkd at all. so maybe thats why you can't open a true jkd school, but can only add jkd concepts.
peace


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## Aikia

Enson,
You are right. Bruce closed his JKD kwoons in 1971 and asked all of his students not to teach JKD. In my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience". I interviewed the top JKD instructor who says that he promised Bruce that he would not commercialize or teach JKD. Bruce felt that JKD was best as a philosophy ("Use what works",as the "way of no [particular] way") and was afraid that his students would mistake the practice drills  and techniques as the total art thus, creating the  "limitations" that JKD opposes. Has that happened? Some say yes, some say no. That's what makes it interesting.
Jerry Beasley
Author, "The Jeet Kune Do Experience"


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## Flatlander

I'm curious, if Enson is correct, in your opinion, and you "interviewed the top JKD instructor who says that he promised Bruce that he would not commercialize or teach JKD", would the interview granted to you for the purpose of publishing and marketing a book not equate to a commercialization of JKD?


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## Enson

i have a question aswell that arises...

what is your opinion of gary dill? he claims he teaches jkd just as bruce lee taught i (which apparently he is not supposed to do) . i have my own opinion of him from what i've seen, but i would like to hear from a man of your caliber.

peace


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## Aikia

As you may know very few can turn commercial in JKD and actually make money. The return from publishing a book is perhaps a few grand ( spread over a period of years). Videos cost so much to make and promote that the field of profit makers is again limited ( unless you teach seminars and sell to attendees). Seminar instructors are in position to make the most income. Perhaps less than a dozen nationwide can go full time. The top guy interviewed in my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience" is the top paid JKD seminar instructor of all time. At age 70 some suggest he will retire in the next few years.  A few, like Mr. Dill have retired from full time careers and make part time income from JKD organizations. The fact is very, very few (perhaps only one or two) have  earned a hansome wage ($100,000 per year or more) as JKD instructors. After the first generation instructors retire the average earning potential of a JKD instructor may be little more than the average factory worker could expect to make in a 40 hour week, and there is no cross country travel for the factory worker. What is a JKD certificate worth? Based on the information I have collected, the answer is  not much compared to a black belt in TKD or karate. JKD practitioners must study the art for self gratification or to add to their knowledge base, because the chances of quitting the 40 hour week to go on the road as a JKD instructor are low.
JB


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## achilles

What is any certificate, degree or title worth?


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## Mark Lynn

Aikia said:
			
		

> Thanks for your comments. I agree that one interpretation of "value" would have to consider the ammount invested versus the potential to gain an income. This question pertains to receiving an income from teaching JKD.
> 1) For example the karate groups have professional business organizations that teach them how to market their skill. 2) Even first degree black belts often gross  $6000. or more per month for teaching Tae kwon do or karate. 3) I get the impression that there are no JKD schools in which the instructor earns a middle class living. I know that in the early 1990's I offered a beginning JKD class at the university. 4) Few students,it seemed had an interest in JKD. I changed the listing to JKD/Kung Fu and the enrollment was greatly increased. My beginning karate and TKD classes were always full. 5) A review of JKD forums suggests that JKD instructors generally must supplement their programs to include coursework in kali, Muay Thai, BJJ, MMA, kickboxing or the standard karate,TKD etc. 6) What I would like to know is...Can anyone (certified etc) make a living as a professional martial arts instructor from teaching only JKD? So far the answer appears to be no.



Dr. Beasely
I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) I would think that business techniques to run your school would transfer to JKD as well as any other MA.  In fact I think that the offering of other martial arts (other styles kali, BJJ, Thai Boxing etc. etc.) is a good marketing tool and one that was in the forefront before schools started expanding and adding more cross training programs to boost attendance.

2) I think this is due to learning how to run a successful school as a business model than due to the popularity of karate TKD.  ( In that a 1st Dan could make this kind of money)  Most schools that I have seen aren't run by a 1st Dan, generally they are the ones running a feeder program at the YMCAs and recs centers.  However I do know some higher dan ranks that run these programs as well while holding a primary job.

3)  I think there have been some.  The late Terry Gibson who was in Tulsa OK comes to mind.  His school was pretty successful (it's still there I think but someone else has taken it over), and he taught JKD along with the other systems (it was a JKD Concept school).  How about Burt Richardson, Lamar Davis, Ron Billicki (spelling?), and I'm sure there are others.  However since JKD isn't as well of a known MA as say karate/TKD/Kung Fu I believe that there are far fewer instructors that are able to earn a living teaching JKD than the other MAs.

4) I believe the TKD/Karate/Kung Fu has a bigger presence here in the sates and therefore when people see a class being offered they will generally gravitate to the ones whom they know, more so than trying something new.  especially in a college type setting. I would also think that you might get the percentage of students who took the TKD/karate/KF class before as a kid (or that someone they knew took it) and decide to take it again as well.  So not only is the name recognition better but also the past experience factor as well.

5) I don't consider this supplementing their programs, rather I think it is a continuation of the JKD Concepts programs.  In the JKD Concepts; Kali is taught along side of the Silat, the Boxing, Thai Boxing, BJJ, Shoot fighting etc. etc. etc. as well as the Jan Fun Gung Fu (Bruce Lee's system).  To me this is a good marketing tool and trying to reach out to a wider base of people.  Since someone might be interested in the BJJ (or any other sub system taught) and decide to come to your school because of that and then later on move into branching out into the other classes/arts/sub systems as well.

6) From this I take it you mean original JKD (or what's called/refered to as  original JKD).  I don't know.

Now what might be a different question to ask but still along the same lines is why a JKD school might not be profitable?  And I think there might be several factors to this (and these can apply to any other MA as well).
1) Name recognition

2) Market (I think this is key): (this is my opinon only) Who is in the market for this type of training, young males (some females) by and large.  And who is the most fluctuating market again young people.  Therefore the student base is fluid and not the kind to build a steady clientel on.
a) From my experience from attending some clases at different schools, seminars etc. etc. I don't see many people in their 40's (and above) and many kids (16 below) in the JKD classes.  However in a given TKD/karate class the kids are the bread and butter, and thier parents are sometimes in the programs as well.

3) The instructors, uniforms (or lack there of), schools
JKD has the hardcore training, the backyard classes, the lack of uniforms, and young instructors, as their calling card.  Does the average person want this?  Does the young professional who wants to maybe learn some self defense want to join a backyard group with no matts, no mirrors, being taught out of someone's garage?  Or the young mother?  Will the older man whose taken some karate back in his youth seek out a guy whose much younger than him.  Or will he seek out the older instructor at the karate dojo down the street whom he can relate to and who owns his own business?
a) The lack of uniforms, to the person who thinks everyone needs to wear a gi, or wants to wear a gi to make them feel special they don't like the idea of everyone wearing different attire.  Again maybe the young women feels intimidated by the good looking woman in a sports bra and T shirt and tight pants (workout attire) and wants to be some place where she will feel anominity (everone dressed the same). 
b) This might rankle some, but the instructors might be another problem.  I have met some who were good in one art and ok in another.  But if you are teaching the JKD Concept approach then the art that you are good in, might not be the art I'm interested in, or even better in.  So the instruction might not be as good in some areas.  

*Please I understand that in the all of the arts there is always something else to learn, and I'm not knocking JKD or saying JKD is bad.  I'm just bringing out points for disscusion since the question was asked how come JKD can't teach for a living. * 

Submitted with respect
Mark


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## Mark Lynn

Sorry I made a mistake in my last post.

I meant to say in my final statement that JKD Instructors can't teach and make a living from thier teaching. 

Mark


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## Mark Lynn

Aikia said:
			
		

> As you may know very few can turn commercial in JKD and actually make money. The return from publishing a book is perhaps a few grand ( spread over a period of years). Videos cost so much to make and promote that the field of profit makers is again limited ( unless you teach seminars and sell to attendees). Seminar instructors are in position to make the most income. Perhaps less than a dozen nationwide can go full time. The top guy interviewed in my book "The Jeet Kune Do Experience" is the top paid JKD seminar instructor of all time. At age 70 some suggest he will retire in the next few years.  A few, like Mr. Dill have retired from full time careers and make part time income from JKD organizations. 1) The fact is very, very few (perhaps only one or two) have  earned a hansome wage ($100,000 per year or more) as JKD instructors. After the first generation instructors retire the average earning potential of a JKD instructor may be little more than the average factory worker could expect to make in a 40 hour week, and there is no cross country travel for the factory worker. 2) What is a JKD certificate worth? Based on the information I have collected, the answer is  not much compared to a black belt in TKD or karate. 3) JKD practitioners must study the art for self gratification or to add to their knowledge base, because the chances of quitting the 40 hour week to go on the road as a JKD instructor are low.
> JB



Dr. Beasley
Once again I added numbers to your post to address them.

1) I would wager that very few instructors in any MA (compared to the total number of MA instrucors teaching) make $100,000.00 or more per year as a livable wage.  While their schools might bring in that much gross per year, factoring in wages to staff, rent, utilities, supplies (buidling and equipment), and other expenses I don't know or haven't met anybody that makes that kind of money.  Granted I have read about them and all in the trade magazines (NAPMA and Century's), but I haven't met anybody.

2) The JKD cert is worth (IMHO) as much as the BB cert in karate or TKD.  Because from what I have seen as I stated in my previous post and this one, I don't see that many people teaching and making a living from it (as their sole income), most of the dojos around here where I live the instructors are teaching on the side (TKD and Karate) as well as running their schools.  And they are no different than the JKD instructors I have met in the same circumstances.

3) I agree that the chances of becoming a seminar instructor are low in JKD, however I think they are low in any martial art.  Nor do I think the average instructor in a martial art wants to take on the responsibilty and hassle of going on the road every weekend teaching.  Most people are teaching the MAs because they enjoy the martial arts, if they can make some money on the side then great, so they teach small classes.  A fewer amount feel the need or drive to take on the resposibility of a commercial school, and even fewer amount want to take on the job of trying to market themselves to teach the seminiar circut.

Dr. Beasley
I too am glad you have joined this group at MT.  I know you have much more experience with the JKD realm, instructing various students in your college classes, and you have contact with the different MA business groups out there. I'd appreciate your input if I'm off base on my points.

With respect
Mark


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## kroh

Very strange debate going on here...

To the first part of the thread... How much is it worth... Shouldn't the question be, "How much is it worth to you?"  In terms of time and talents spent in the school I attend... Thousands of dollars have already been spent (don't get excited...almost 7 years of training combined with seminars from many of the brightest bulbs in the batch).  Thousands more may come and go...  The point is...my goal isn't the peice of paper issued by my instructor.  It is to understand what he is teaching and try to take it to the next level.  I assume my training will one day lead me straight into an officially sounding peice of paper... But if I don't open a school... It looks realy nice on my wall.

As for schools opening up that teach straight Jun Fan Gung Fu / JKD... Hmmm... Inosanto Academy, Los Angeles, CA..... East/West, Cortland, NY... Derderian Academy, Johnston, RI... and those are just the ones off the top of my head...I'm sure everyone here is smart enough to use a search engine to find one on the net if you had to.  Do these schools offer other arts as a part of what they offer in their business?  So does a college.  Does that make a college that teaches medicine and other programs less inclined to teach you what you need versus a school that *only* teaches medicine?  Not at all.  

If you are a quality instructor with a certifiable background, then you will draw quality students who will stay with you for what you have to offer.  The slackers and posers will find what you have to offer too difficult and take off.  Quality draws quality and that is really what that peice of paper is worth.  If you went to a one day seminar to be certified to teach JKD... You might want to get a set of ear pluggs...

The rest of us are laughing at you...

Regards, 
Walt


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## ShhDragon@sprynet.com

I believe, simply that the act of evaluating and trying to value anything reduces it's worth.

The art is what is transmitted, the hits felt, the laughs shared... The certificate: worthless. Should you seek no value in it, it's worth will show itself.


Stephen Watson
www.ShhDragon.com


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## kroh

Hey Steve...

Are you following me?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Aikia

Mark,
Thanks for the insights. I tend to agree with your comments. I had only recently joined a few JKD forums, and initialy only because several students told me that they had read something about me on a website. I wanted to resopnd to a few comments and ended up spending a lot more time. 
I have written quite a bit about JKD because I was challanged by Lee's articles. There was so much politics and in-fighting in my original 1960's martial art of ITF Tae kwon do that I was ready to move on. I found even more in-fighting and politics in JKD. At least in TKD instructors could make a good livining teaching their art. I have found very few schools that could be considered a monetary success bases strickly on teaching JKD. As you and others point out to be successful the JKD school must teach other arts. This is not true of the TKD/Karate school. 
So my question really asked,"If the end result of JKD instructor certification is to teach, and, you can only teach small groups, why so much in-fighting and politics?" I moved away from JKD. Who needs the gripes? I now only refer to myself, when asked, as JKD influenced. I teach the JKD influenced kickboxing method taught to me by Joe Lewis as a seminar topic and small group training.
I think most of the people that associate with JKD are not intending to be certified as JKDC or OJKD. They are simply JKDInfluenced. You are JKDI when you allow Bruce Lee's philosophy to change the way you teach and practice your martial art.
JB


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## kroh

JB, 

I would tend to think that the success of the big schools has less to do with the actual politics and more about the approachability.  

Tae Kwon Do schools frequently advertise as follows:

_Come learn the Korean arts of Self defense in a safe and fun atmosphere with qualified instructors.  Our spacious umpteeenth foot dojang has all the latest equipment and conveiniences as well as ample changing rooms and well lit parking.  Whether you are looking for self defense or sport, a great way to stay in shape or find self discipline... Etc..._

This kind of deal appeals to more than just the guy looking to duke it out.  Families and people not sure what they are looking for are attracted to this kind of advertisment because it promises exposure to the MA in a safe enviornement of learning.  These ads can be found everywhere from the grocery store to the local newspaper.  They know how to promote and they tailor the classes to their audience.  Hell, I even sent a friend of mine's kid to one of these schools.  

The JKD crowd on the average usually aren't that concerned with producing a fun safe atmosphere (I am a JKD guy and I can't even tell you what atmosphere means...Wink*wink).  They are concerned with the propegation of their art and teaching people realistic fighting method.  The same is true with other martial arts as well.  

I live in Rhode Island and the state is DROWNING in a sea of martial arts places that open up and are closed a month later.  In all these places that open up, i usually see a lot of Kenpo (Cerio or Parker Methods) as well as some others (tang so do, American Karate and once I saw a Muy Thai).  I don't see a lot of Kali/Arnis, or Koryu (Japanese methods of old military combat that have been around the block for the last couple of centuries) or JKD because of the clientel they draw.  They understand that to master their skills, they have to put in more than just three one hour classes a week.  They are going for a higher standard than the Joe that is just looking for a fun hobby that might get him/ her in shape.

I am not trashing these other schools by any means.  I have been to many a family oriented school that teaches self defense and sport to watch my friends  and their families throw down.  *They have great and inovative programs!* But being part of a JKD school i have noticed that the retention of students is sporatic.  Either they don't want to learn anymore because they now have a taste for blood and want to just throw down (MMA's and the Vale Tudo Stuff)... or they find that the ciriculum is too hard and they leave (these are the two most common reasons).

As far as the certificate goes...in today's day and age it is a form of liscence that allows the client to check on the services of the provider.  This gives the client some confidence in the service that he will receive.  In older times, many systems either didn't issue certs or if they did, it was to provide a means to continue the system according to the founders wishes ( the Japanese use to use scrolls for this).  In today's America, for those who wish to start a succesfull business, getting that peice of paper is important because they want their clients to have every confidence in what they provide.  

If you are only looking to pass on what you know to a relative, however, the paper will only be important to later generations that will want to validate anyones claim to be from so and so system...

Those that are only looking to learn...our reasons are our own.

Respectfully, 
Walt


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## Aikia

Walt,
Very impressive web page. I am pleased to see that you can be both karate and JKD.
JB
www.aikia.net


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## kroh

I owe it all to my instructors and a very good knee surgeon...

Thank you...

Regards,
Walt


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## Mark Lynn

Aikia said:
			
		

> Mark,
> Thanks for the insights. I tend to agree with your comments. I had only recently joined a few JKD forums, and initialy only because several students told me that they had read something about me on a website. I wanted to resopnd to a few comments and ended up spending a lot more time.
> I have written quite a bit about JKD because I was challanged by Lee's articles. There was so much politics and in-fighting in my original 1960's martial art of ITF Tae kwon do that I was ready to move on. I found even more in-fighting and politics in JKD. At least in TKD instructors could make a good livining teaching their art. 1) I have found very few schools that could be considered a monetary success bases strickly on teaching JKD. 2) As you and others point out to be successful the JKD school must teach other arts. This is not true of the TKD/Karate school.
> 3) So my question really asked,"If the end result of JKD instructor certification is to teach, and, you can only teach small groups, why so much in-fighting and politics?" I moved away from JKD. Who needs the gripes? I now only refer to myself, when asked, as JKD influenced. I teach the JKD influenced kickboxing method taught to me by Joe Lewis as a seminar topic and small group training.
> 4) I think most of the people that associate with JKD are not intending to be certified as JKDC or OJKD. They are simply JKDInfluenced. You are JKDI when you allow Bruce Lee's philosophy to change the way you teach and practice your martial art.
> JB



Dr. Beasely

Thanks for your response, I added numbers to your post in order to addres them.

1) My exposure/instruction in JKD came from the JKDC group from some Dan Inosanto seminars and such.  So I tend to think that JKDC teaching the other arts in schools was a natural outgrowth or rather the way the business model was put forth from Mr. Inosanto.

2) With today's competion in the teaching of martial arts, I see more and more cross training and now some schools are teaching multiple arts (even under the same roof).  Or renting space to other teachers of a different system, 20 years ago this was un heard of.  I think this is more of a business practice/principle that have enered into the running of a martial art business/school.

3) Why so much infighting?  We're human  , we've been taught the best by the best and you haven't.  We teach the real thing, it's my way or the highway etc. etc.  This goes on in any martial art ITF, WTF, Japanese system (you name it), FMA etc. etc.  And again I come back to the setting yourself apart from the majority of other schools as a business practice that you teach the special deal, the real true art, etc. etc. as a way to expand your business so you set yourself apart from the JKDC or the OJKD (whichever camp you are in).

4) I agree with you here, most people don't care when they walk in the door, it isn't till much later in the intermediate ranks, after you have invested time and money that people start to care about JKDC or OJKD.  I really like the JKDI term though.  Because probably 90% of the people out there really fall into this catorgory, myself included.

With respect
Mark


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## Mark Lynn

Aikia said:
			
		

> Walt,
> Very impressive web page. I am pleased to see that you can be both karate and JKD.
> JB
> www.aikia.net



Walt

I second this, nice web page.

mark


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## kroh

Thanks guys... 

My instructor is a real quality guy and his teaching is first rate.  It is actually his web site.  I count myself as real lucky.  Plus...the thing that is really cool is that he constantly trains with his teachers in order to bring us the hard core facts as to what JF-Gung Fu should be as well as the latest conceptual teachings from JKD.  There is no resting on his laurels and saying that he has trained with so and so.  He says he TRAINS with so and so because he constantly updates his skills and stays current with some of the top instructors of the JKD community.  

Back to the topic at hand... When some one comes to the school, They get an idea of what my instructor can do and teach by his certifications on the wall.  When I first walked into the school...the certificates weren't what impressed me.  It was the fact that he didn't walk around calling himself grand master or some other nonsense and that his teaching style was phenominal.  He taught in a way that made you soak up his material and he kept his authority over the group while making everyone feel like a peer.  Great guy with skills to boot.  

Thanks for the minute...
Walt


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## Aikia

Mark, I am going to start a new thread and ask the question are you JKDI? Thanks for the idea. JB


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## blackbeltedbeauty

A JKD certificate would be worth nothing to me. I believe that Bruce Lee never intended for them to be given out as if JKD were a style. He said "to wipe the name out" if it were becoming a style that way. In my opinion, JKD is becoming a style, with it's levels as a ranking system up to black sash, and it has you doing certain techniques in a certain way. I think Bruce wanted everyone to come up with there own JKD, like he said, do what works for you, have no style. He wanted to be "the finger pointing away to the moon" not the moon itself. Therefore, JKD orginizations do not follow Bruce's philosophy. They make you do things their way to acheive levels. I've watched the World JKD Federation training videos enough to know this. 

This is just my opinion, but I really feel Bruce didn't want it that way. I've written 4 papers on him and his philosophy for different classes and for my black belt. Through my research, that's just what I have come to understand and feel he might want.

Rebecca


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## Aikia

Good work Rebecca! A lot of people share your opinion.


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## kroh

Very cool insights Rebecca.

The other thing to consider is the people who actually trained with Bruce.  Guys like Dan Inosanto who are toted by many as being a person of integrity that studied with Lee.  They still teach JKD / Jun Fan Gung Fu with and without inovation.  Those that focus on the no style as style philosophy miss the point.  They get so wrapped up in the water is formless debate that they forget that even an ocean has a surface and a submerged side.  If there was nothing to contain the water then it would be just floating in the air or out in space.  In order for it to be usefull it has to adopt some form or shape.  And if you do not do some type of formatted training, then does that mean you should be applying the techniques in a different method every time you train?  

Dont know about you, but I like the jab-cross theory.  Put up a person who trains a different way every day ( average kung fooligan) versus say, a boxer, who trains the same five techniques every day, 365.  I'll put my money on the boxer because his stuff is geared to work versus the fooligan who might have memorized the action but has no expereince training it to work.  

The long and short of it is that these arguments hve been hashed and rehashed a thousand times ( including on the school message board that I run for the JKD school I go to).  We know that one aspect of Lee's theory was meant to stay a theory and one aspect was the stuff that he actually practiced... But if we say that he practiced something then that means he had to categorize it and repeat it...other wise it wouldn't be practice.  

The bad part about an argument like this is that it can go on forever without either side making head way.  Formless, yes.  Methods of practice ...yes.  Forms...despite what people say... Yes ( to a degree).  What's the peice of paper worth...?  Only the individual can decide.  But when i walk into a school and they say, "we teach JKD concepts" and I ask where they learned it...If they say they pulled it out of a book...then i am out the door.  If they say that what they are teaching is the scientific departure of forms in favor of function as taught by Bruce Lee... I might stay to see what they have to offer

Regards, 
Walt


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## Aikia

Well said, Walt. I am shure a lot of people agree.

JB


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## still learning

Hello, What is a JKD worth today? As a none JKD student,but looking around at today current martial arts, the enrollment won't be huge. Bruce Lee is history past and so is his style,(non-style). People change and follow what is new,notice BJJ ,so popular today,everyone wants to learn some form of it. I am not putting Bruce Lee or his JKD down. His contributions change many ways the people think of martial arts. Today martial artist wants the best stuffs,new things too. (not all). I had never experience JKD or ever saw it in any shape or form. I read alot about martials arts,but I am no expert. (little over 10 years of training,and still learning). Just my opinion and thoughts ( there are JKD schools in Hawaii)....Aloha


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## IMAA

A Jeet Kune Do certificate to me really is not worth a dime.  In fact neither is  any of my black belt certificates in Karate, TKD, or my instructorship certs in Kali, Silat.  I've come to find out that there is so much more for me to learn in the realm of martial arts that for me to try to sell the idea or principle to someone is obsurd.  I do not teach for money.  I work and go to school.  My job and my career is my bread and butter not martial arts. Because like you have mentioned Mr. Bealey, making a living in martial arts is at best a low income or part time earned income at best.   only the fortunate ones w/ abilities to create video's , write books, or travel the world away from their families to teach may earn a modest wage.  Guys like Guro Inosanto and some of his followers are probably some of the more well to do as far as compensation is considered in the JKD family.  However as its also been stated they diagnose JKD w/ other arts like Kali, Muay Thai, Savate, Kickboxing, Silat, Combat Fighting, BJJ etc...

  I work in the Law Enforcement field and for me martial arts is a way of life, and a way of survival rather then a means of life to pay my bills.  I teach Police Officers and other local MA instructors etc...I hav erecently decided to open a small training group to those in my area to expand on their existing training.  My compensation for instruction right now is really minimal if any at all..  As for certification and JKD only in my opinion if you don't have certification from a direct lineage of Inosanto, Kimura, Lee, it wouldn't be that legit anyway.   (take that for what its worth) and I appologize if anyone disagrees but JKD is a philosophy, expression, not a system to pass rank or earn a living from.. Bruce only began giving certs out from what I understand in the final end of his teaching only because the students wanted some form of recognization of their training.  thats why belts and certificates have made it in the martial arts for so long.  People want to know they have excelled some way.  Just like going to college how many people would go to college if they didnt get a certificate or degree to show employers their excellence?

  It's all a dog and pony show.

BTW  Mr. Beasly why do you carrie the title of DR. ?  (just curious)  

CB


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## Aikia

IMAA,
Earned doctorate in Education (Ed.D.) from VA Tech, Virginia's largest university, in 1980. The title of my dissertation was " Contemporary Karate: An Examination of the Social Relations and Group Configurations in a Modern Day Adaptation of the Ancient Asian Martial Arts". My interest was in examining how martial arts in general, not just karate, have developed in the US since the 1950's. Much of the info can be seen in my new book "Mastering Karate" (human kinetics publishers)www.aikia.net. I have a chapter on how Bruce Lee developed JKD and the significance of the JKD philosophy on the development of modern martial arts training. I am a professor of Exercise, Sport and Health Education at Radford University (www.Radford.edu) where we have a major concentration in Sport Studies:Martial Arts. Let me add that I do not teach JKD as an art or style. I am only interested in the JKD philosophy and how it can be applied to general martial arts practice.
 According to trade publications martial arts professionals can make high incomes as owners/operators/instructors of karate and taekwondo schools. There is also interest in mixed-style martial arts. JKD does not appear to be an art that can be easily taught. And judging by the results of this thread is profitable only to a select few individuals. Still JKD is fun and interesting for many. Thank you for your input.


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## captnigh

Could you not classify a JKD school as a mixed-style martial arts school? --All arts welcome, keep what works for you, throw away what doesn't-- In that kind of environment, you'd think the more knowledge available in a variety of arts, the better. By pushing that aspect of JKD, maybe you'd attract more students in today's MMA-driven market.
Ugh. I feel dirty talking about marketing and martial arts in same paragraph...


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## James Kovacich

captnigh said:
			
		

> Could you not classify a JKD school as a mixed-style martial arts school? --All arts welcome, keep what works for you, throw away what doesn't-- In that kind of environment, you'd think the more knowledge available in a variety of arts, the better. By pushing that aspect of JKD, maybe you'd attract more students in today's MMA-driven market.
> Ugh. I feel dirty talking about marketing and martial arts in same paragraph...


And thats why JKD is so looked down upon today. Because people think JKD is just a mix of what works, but it is not.


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## captnigh

I did not mean to over simplify Bruce Lee's art. I hope I did not insult anyone with my post. 

I think maybe my understanding of Jeet Kune Do is not complete-- I've only read books and seen videos and documentaries. Not having received formal instruction by someone close to Lee, I'm sure I'm "in the dark" to say the least....

But am I incorrect in thinking one facet of JKD is absorbing techniques that work for me from my studies in various arts? Any insight is greatly appreciated....


----------



## IMAA

Thank you for your insert there Mr. Beasly.  Sounds like your are extremely qaualified.  I have spent some time with one of the instructors in my area who has been a part of your Karate College for several years here in Muncie, IN. He claims to have a background and to be teaching JKD, which he is not.  I don't want to speak ill of him, because he is a very accomplished teacher.  However, his JKD is not up to par in my opinion.  I have spent several years training and studying JKD under guys like Guro/Sifu Inosanto, Steve Golden, Patrick Strong and some others less known.  And my knowledge of JKD is far more extensive then this gentlemens.  I just wish he would not claim to teach or even associate his title of Goju Ryu Karate w/ JKD.  But nonetheless he is a great guy and I don't want to hurt his business I just think perhaps he was somewhat mislead at your camp or something.  I've shown him some things that are more Jun Fan Gung Fu and Jeet Kune Do.  That he has not claimed to have seen or known.  Seeing how now a days i've been more concentrated on the Filipino Arts I like you have decided after all the overdue B.S. if you will of Shannon Lee's and her Mother's decison to begin law suites against all those claiming to use JKD in thier art iv'e went away from JKD as part of my curriculum.  I do however hold on to the principles and philosophy of Sigung Lee's ways only to label what I do as "modern street boxing" rather then JKD however in essence it's all the same in the end.  

I hope things go well with you and would like to one day meet you and attend your karate college perhaps.  

Have a wonderful New Years and may everyone have a great profitable year.


IMAA


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## Aikia

IMAA,
I'am not shure who you are speaking about in IN. Some years ago a training buddy I knew attended a JKDC seminar. He was well skilled in boxing. At the seminar the JKDC instructor "covered" boxing and several other arts. My buddy decided that he knew as much about JKD as the instructor knew about boxing so he decided to add JKD to his list of arts. His argument was "if they can do it why can't he?" I think that there are a lot of people that are going to list JKD as an art on their resume. To quote Dan " life is short, why worry?"
 Someone else brought up a good point. Now that Shannon, Bruce's only heir is going to control the marketing of JKD it may be that JKD instructors will eventually adopt the MMA label. One could be a mixed-style practitioner ( capnigh, you know more than you think) and be maintaining the philosophy of JKD. Bruce "mixed" boxing, wing chun, fencing, and such to form his mixed-style which he labeled and taught as JKD. The philosophy of JKD would indicate that it is also valid to "flow" among a mix of diferent styles such as  muay Thai to kali to wing chun to BJJ etc. This is also a valid and popular interpretation of JKD. 
 The philosophy of JKD also indicates that one may be free of all styles and "repose in the nothing". If you look at current MMA fighters one may prefer a sort of mixed-style of BJJ and boxing while another may be free of all styles and create the method that works best at that given moment. One may argue that Mixed-style is the current state of JKD and MMA is what JKD intends to become. Of course the comeback would be JKD is simply JKD and that works as well. The trap you want to avoid is "my JKD is the one and only JKD".
IMMA, thanks for your insight. You're concept of "modern street boxing" is right on target. Hope to meet you at camp (June 23-26).


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## captnigh

Thanks for the comment, Aikia, though I still feel as if I've a lot to learn about JKD. It seems to me that JKD is as much about mental attitude as it is physical technique. This can obviously be said about many arts, but with Lee's art there appears to be a rare open-mindedness that exists, whereas other arts can be quite restrictive with the techniques deemed "acceptable". 

If I may ask-
Did you train with Lee?


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## kroh

> Now that Shannon, Bruce's only heir is going to control the marketing of JKD it may be that JKD instructors will eventually adopt the MMA label.



I really don't like the sound of that.  I know that you can't even put up a Bruce picture without getting a class action suit slapped on...but does the above statement mean that JKD isn't JKD unless they say it is?

Man...this whole "Bruce Lee is God of martial arts and we own the rights" thing is just out of hand.  I know that Miss Shannon (forgive me as I do not know her married last name) is not here to defend herself but does anyone know if the idea of JKD marketing is true?

why can't we all just train?

Regards,
Walt


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## Aikia

Jack, I did not train with Bruce. I was training in TKD on the East Coast from '68 while Bruce was alive. I was turned on to JKD in 1971 "Liberate yourself from Classical Karate".  My hero was Joe Lewis who trained with Bruce. I began working with Joe in 1981 (www.joelewiskarate.com). Check out info on Joe's book on JKD.
 I have found that two types are attracted to JKD. First are the Bruce Lee groupies that see BL as an idol. Kind of what Walt talks about on this thread. And second are the more cebreal types, like me, who become fasinated with JKD philosophy ( and have no interest in BL). Some may have both interests.
 I am not a JKD instructor. Except for Dan and Larry I am senior ( in terms of rank) to most of  the students who trained with Lee in the art of JKD.  Too much politics in that group for me. Most are nice guys and I have enjoyed working with them. I wrote the first book on the JKD concept endorsed by Dan Inosanto in 1988.
  In the 1990's I promoted JKDC seminars and hired JKDC instructors. In 1993 I promoted the first ( of five) Original JKD camps ( with support of Ted Wong, Taky Kimura and Howard Williams).  Because I promoted and wrote about OJKD I was blacklisted by the JKDC group. They were not above letting money get in the way of relationships. When you quit making money for them they tend to forget your name. It's interesting that the Inosantos have been sued by the Lee family for control of the BL/JKD name. I don't know who won but notice the JKD banner has been deleted from the Inosanto site. Money got in the way of friendships there also. I have no resentment toward Dan. It's ancient history.
  I used to teach a class on "The Tao of JKD" at Radford University" but got burned out on the politics. I still write about JKD quite a bit. And a lot of people use the terms I created like "original"JKD/Pre-73 JKD/JKD Matrix etc. People have a hard time understanding JKD because it is a philosophy not an art. We by nature want to see something finite. Bruce closed his JKD school in 1971 and disbanned all JKD instruction. He was afraid someone would sell techniques and call it JKD.
 At Karate College one year someone was talking about the movie "The Thing" with Kurt Russel. If you see it you will notice that the alien ( called the Thing because they didn't know what it was) could take the shape of any object or being. The thing was JKD. Bruce said JKD is like water. Water takes the shape of the object that contains it. Bruce wanted JKD to be an expression of martial arts that could change and had no borders, no limitations. People want to contain a martial art. To define borders. We recognize a style because of its limitations. A shotokan punch is different from a boxer's punch. JKD, like the alien, can take the shape of the shotokan or the boxer's punch. There are no set techniques in JKD. JKD can be anything that works. The MMA fighters are researching and exploring "what works" in competition today. Take that knowledge and apply it to  street fighting and you have ( an expression of )JKD.
 The minute you put boundaries on your art or expression of an art, call it a name or try to teach it as a set of fixed skills you loose JKD. That is why Bruce said JKD can not be taught, it can only be experienced. JKD is really just a name. It is up to the individual to express JKD.
 I tell people to use the term JKDI. The "I" stands for  "influenced". Most of us are influenced by JKD. You don't need a certificate to be JKDI. You don't have to join an organization or pay dues to be JKDI. It's a lot more honest than trying to get in the rat race of "owning" or containing JKD. You can't own a philosophy. You can only express it. That's JKD.


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## captnigh

That gives me something to think about.  
It is hard for me to think any martial artist who has been exposed to Lee's philosophies, even a little, would not be inspired to open their minds about training.
I wonder what Bruce would say about the political goings-on in JKD today.
Thanks again for the responses, Dr Beasley.  What is your seminar schedule for the upcoming yaer?


----------



## AC_Pilot

kroh said:
			
		

> Very cool insights Rebecca.
> 
> The other thing to consider is the people who actually trained with Bruce. Guys like Dan Inosanto who are toted by many as being a person of integrity that studied with Lee. They still teach JKD / Jun Fan Gung Fu with and without inovation. Those that focus on the no style as style philosophy miss the point. They get so wrapped up in the water is formless debate that they forget that even an ocean has a surface and a submerged side. If there was nothing to contain the water then it would be just floating in the air or out in space. In order for it to be usefull it has to adopt some form or shape. And if you do not do some type of formatted training, then does that mean you should be applying the techniques in a different method every time you train?
> 
> Dont know about you, but I like the jab-cross theory. Put up a person who trains a different way every day ( average kung fooligan) versus say, a boxer, who trains the same five techniques every day, 365. I'll put my money on the boxer because his stuff is geared to work versus the fooligan who might have memorized the action but has no expereince training it to work.
> 
> The long and short of it is that these arguments hve been hashed and rehashed a thousand times ( including on the school message board that I run for the JKD school I go to). We know that one aspect of Lee's theory was meant to stay a theory and one aspect was the stuff that he actually practiced... But if we say that he practiced something then that means he had to categorize it and repeat it...other wise it wouldn't be practice.
> 
> The bad part about an argument like this is that it can go on forever without either side making head way. Formless, yes. Methods of practice ...yes. Forms...despite what people say... Yes ( to a degree). What's the peice of paper worth...? Only the individual can decide. But when i walk into a school and they say, "we teach JKD concepts" and I ask where they learned it...If they say they pulled it out of a book...then i am out the door. If they say that what they are teaching is the scientific departure of forms in favor of function as taught by Bruce Lee... I might stay to see what they have to offer
> 
> Regards,
> Walt


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Now we touch upon the truth. *First* the student must fit within a structured set of training parameters, and techniques/drills. ONLY after achieving success in this, and becoming a mature fighter through these regular repeated systems, can the advanced and enlightened student cast aside what does not work for them, and begin to search out what WILL work in real world combat. In my case I have trained in the Inosanto/Vunak systems, under certified instructors, and found my physique did not lend itself to certain original techniques which Bruce could definitely do and which Bruce promoted. (Hook kicks being one) But after I cast those aside I inserted other techniques from other arts I have studied and found worthy, (Praying Mantis concepts, Aikido-Dumog synthesis, etc..)  and in fact modified these original techniques for street applicability and integration with basic JKD/Kali, etc. 

We discard structure and the basic JKD *techniques* Bruce promoted *only* after we have burned out most of our personal ignorance and are therefore better qualified to assess ourselves in experience, wisdom and knowledge. We do this by *first* trying our best to master the basic JKD structure and understand JKD concepts.

*My* JKD will *not* be *your* JKD, *after* we both reach profeciency in basic JKD techniques/concepts, and understanding of *our* weaknesses. But you are *not* understanding JKD concepts if you never trained in basic JKD techniques for sufficient time to learn what *your* weaknesses are. You can't just read up a bit on JKD and make an assessment. This is why JKD people *want to train with and study other arts,.. to bring us out of our condition of ignorance. *There are definite techniques Bruce believed one should train in and try to master before daring to cast them aside as not worthy. This is a major reason so few try JKD.. it is daunting and conceptual, and few really understand it even after trying it for a while.. and most cannot put into execution the flow from range to range, seamless transition from technique to technique in various arts, without stopping to think about "what's next?" This rigidity makes executing JKD impossible. It takes time and meditation on the concepts and natural ability. Bruce indeed said *"not one in 10,000 men can do my art."*

To say they is no form or structure in JKD training is to entirely miss the points Bruce tried to make. Sometimes I think no one really read all of Bruce's writings, or if they did, they did so as an outsider who never tried the Inosanto/Vunak "way" of training, and therefore these concepts of Bruce are not understood today by many. I don't think Bruce really expected most to understand.


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## kroh

artyon: 

Thank you!

:asian: 

Brilliant!

artyon:


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## R. Derderian

AC Pilot,
That was an excellent post and very much on target. 
I seldom post on JKD forums as they are many times full of arrogance and ego. Not as many people interested in martial arts or JKD as they are in being Bruce Lee groupies. Martial Talk really is a great website and I should get more involved here than I do. It is also nice to see Mr. Beasley here.
I have been teaching JKD since 1993. I am a full time martial arts instructor and I have never once been able to make a living teaching just JKD. It is, however, a solid program in my academy and we have around 30 adults on the average enrolled in it at any given time. 
I've seen lots of JKD people open and close in my area. The owners are good martial artists, lousy business people. Poor locations, unprofessionalism, and pounding on the students will not let you teach for very long. Also, quick instructors licenses and no knowledge of what the heck they are teaching will catch up to as well. 
What is a JKD certificate worth? The question can only be answered by the masses of people who want to study. It doesn't matter what art you selling, if someone doesn't like it/respect it, it means little to them. I love all martial arts, but there are some I believe in more than others. To many in the JKD community, a Kenpo certificate is worthless. (no one here on martial talk would ever believe that I am sure  ) I love the Kenpo/Kempo arts, yet I am also a JKD guy. That costs me with some in the JKD world, but who cares. 
As Kroh (my student by the way and a good all around guy) said, the retention in my JKD program was spotty for years. Tried lots of stuff. I am happy to say that in the last 3 years, retention in JKD has been excellent. We have a more structured curriculum. Oh, I know JKD isn't a structured art, but the teaching of it has to be. If I just teach whatever I feel like each class, when does anyone have chance to improve their techniques? After a time in the program, the curriculum allows the student to "wean" off of it and begin to create their own version of it. In other words, they ARE making their own JKD. But now they are in a better position to do it. It makes for a better teaching experience on my part and the quality of student is awesome. 
Thanks for the time. Great thread.
Raffi Derderian


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## AC_Pilot

Raffi.. thanks.

I only wish there was a studio like yours in my area. I would definitely try you out. I would love to be exposed to Kenpo and any other arts you teach. My first instructors tried to open a JKD studio here (how I got into JKD) but they quickly failed due to poor business practices and personal disagreements. Sad because they both were talented and the main instructor, Mark Ashton, certified by Inosanto and truly had the ability to impart JKD concepts. 
 I would not attempt to open a studio until I had a lot of money to lose  as this is not the best area to open a JKD dojo. I would not do it for money but love of the concepts and arts (plural)

Regards,
Steve Robbins


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## kroh

Hey AC...

Sifu Raffi really does have a sweet school!  

What part of the country are you in?  One of the things you could do is to form a study group to keep your skills up.  Find a small corps of people that you could train with a few times a (insert time period of choice/convenience).  This would not only keep your skills current but also it could expand your network of training partners.  Then during some of the time periods that you are not training, go and visit with some of these JKD instructors and make sure that your skills are not only current, but advancing.

Regards,
Walt


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## AC_Pilot

kroh said:
			
		

> Hey AC...
> 
> Sifu Raffi really does have a sweet school!
> 
> What part of the country are you in? One of the things you could do is to form a study group to keep your skills up. Find a small corps of people that you could train with a few times a (insert time period of choice/convenience). This would not only keep your skills current but also it could expand your network of training partners. Then during some of the time periods that you are not training, go and visit with some of these JKD instructors and make sure that your skills are not only current, but advancing.
> 
> Regards,
> Walt


I'm definitely open to that. Problem is in this area the pool of JKD interested people is *very* limited. Even though I meet lots of people at the dojo where I aerobic kickbox, they are almost never JKD material. Pretty much only if I meet someone, we become buddies, *then* they discover what JKD is really about, and think they can try it. I have trained a few guys in basic JKD but eventually they had to leave the area for employment. One guy who had great potential "had" to stop training with me because his wife was jealous of the 3 hours a week he trained with me. I think she was mostly bothered by his newfound confidence  
I do have a post in the training partners wanted thread, but most people in this area seem to want a belt in Muay Thai, Karate, or to train *only* in groundfighting. I will either travel for seminars in the future or bring an instructor here to train with me and certify me. I do kickbox JKD "style" several times each week, and train in Carrenza and energy drills and such with my gal, but I can't really train all out right now because of the power differential between us.

Regards,
Steve


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## Sifu Barry Cuda

What a bizzare question! My certificate means you can be garanteed that I can take you from point a to point z.My degree in education means that I put my time in in college and earned a degree.Whats it all worth? Who knows! My bussiness sense means that since 1986 I have made a living teaching JKD/Kali and I live in NYC which is the most expensive place to live.Certification does not have a dollar value per se.I was published in Karate International mag thru the 90s because I can prove my lineage and am not a self proclamed expert like some.I have certified people that dont even teach but the certification proves that they put thier time in and understand the system, nothing more.Its funny nobody is asking whats the value of a karate blackbelt.  Barry Cuda combatartsusa.com


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## Aikia

Barry, I use to read your articles in Karate International. Good stuff. In fact Mike use to let me see the pre- published articled for opinions.You may recall I wrote the JKD column for KI. Too bad more people didn't read KI. We would both still be in print. The question of "What is a JKD Certificate worth?" actually makes the point that a black belt certificate ( and of course quality skill and the ability to teach)  can be a ticket to a good income. Whereas a JKD certificate  lacks public identification. Many "JKD" instructors actually teach a variety of cultural arts  in order to hold the student's interest. The general public does not know what to expect when you advertise JKD instruction. Some may even ask if you teach nunchuck lessons. In other words it is harder to make a living as a JKD instructor than it is to make a living as a black belt instructor. Yet some would say that it costs more to "earn" a certificate   to teach JKD. Each person's experience may be unique.
 JB


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## 47MartialMan

What do ytou think Bruce lee would think it is worth?


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## Sifu Barry Cuda

JB thanks for the kind words,that was very kind of you, Barry


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## beauty_in_the_sai

blackbeltedbeauty said:
			
		

> A JKD certificate would be worth nothing to me. I believe that Bruce Lee never intended for them to be given out as if JKD were a style. He said "to wipe the name out" if it were becoming a style that way. In my opinion, JKD is becoming a style, with it's levels as a ranking system up to black sash, and it has you doing certain techniques in a certain way. I think Bruce wanted everyone to come up with there own JKD, like he said, do what works for you, have no style. He wanted to be "the finger pointing away to the moon" not the moon itself. Therefore, JKD orginizations do not follow Bruce's philosophy. They make you do things their way to acheive levels. I've watched the World JKD Federation training videos enough to know this.
> 
> This is just my opinion, but I really feel Bruce didn't want it that way. I've written 4 papers on him and his philosophy for different classes and for my black belt. Through my research, that's just what I have come to understand and feel he might want.
> 
> Rebecca


Amen! In my opinion, JKD died with Bruce Lee (*bows* may he rest in peace and harmony for eternity). Sure, he taught Dan Inasanto and Ted Wong and others, but do u do things EXACTLY like your instructor? The original, true Bruce Lee JKD died when he did and I think it's an insult to his memory by marketing JKD as if it were a videogame everyone wants and handing out certificates left and right. A JKD certificate would be worth diddly squat to me, unless I was taught by Bruce Lee himself (which I wish I could've been), but after I got it, I wouldn't say, like so many JKD teachers out there are, "I'm teaching Bruce Lee's art" Like hell they are. No one but Bruce Lee could tach HIS on true original art. The others may be close to it, but not the actual product. Bruce wanted everyone to find their own way anyway, not follow him. "It is like a finger pointing away to the moon. Don't concentrate on the finger or u will miss all that heavenly glory." He said that he was like a road sign pointing to the truth but not the actual truth. How do I know Bruce wouldn't have wanted JKD orginizations and many JKD teachers trying to teach his martial art? He closed all of his dojos because he saw that his instructors weren't teaching the same way he did. So then he taught personally out of his home for 275 an hour! Anyway there's my long opinion!


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## achilles

I understand your point, but then to be consistant you must also say that Shotokan died with Funakoshi and no one can really teach that art.  The same goes for Tae Kwon Do and definitely Ninjitsu.


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## 47MartialMan

But, would Bruce desire it to "die"/"phase out"?


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## Aikia

I recently read where the award winning screen writer Stirling Silliphant was issued a certificate for 3rd level Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. This is the same level as Dan Inosanto. For years I had heard that Dan Inosanto was the one and only person Bruce ranked at level 3. That raises certain questions regarding the meaning of being ranked at 3rd level and who is the senior  student under Bruce Lee. Level 3 could not possibly be an "instructor" rank since Mr.Silliphant is not considered as a JKD instructor. New information continues to surface. Maybe there are others.


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## 47MartialMan

Aikia said:
			
		

> I recently read where the award winning screen writer Stirling Silliphant was issued a certificate for 3rd level Jeet Kune Do from Bruce Lee. This is the same level as Dan Inosanto. For years I had heard that Dan Inosanto was the one and only person Bruce ranked at level 3. That raises certain questions regarding the meaning of being ranked at 3rd level and who is the senior student under Bruce Lee. Level 3 could not possibly be an "instructor" rank since Mr.Silliphant is not considered as a JKD instructor. New information continues to surface. Maybe there are others.


But is 3rd level equivilant to instructor? Or is it years? Or is it a number of methods?


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## Aikia

The question then becomes would Bruce issue the level 3 certificate to Stirling Silliphant because he wanted him to be identified as "Instructor" of JKD? Others have commented that the level corresponds to number of years of personal training under Bruce Lee. In Mr.Siliphant's case this seems more descriptive.


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## 47MartialMan

Aikia said:
			
		

> The question then becomes would Bruce issue the level 3 certificate to Stirling Silliphant because he wanted him to be identified as "Instructor" of JKD? Others have commented that the level corresponds to number of years of personal training under Bruce Lee. In Mr.Siliphant's case this seems more descriptive.


Like a "gimmie" or "honary"?


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## Aikia

Bruce didn't seem like the type to give out honorary degrees. Ted Wong was given level 2 to designate two years of training. It seems consistent that level 3 means three years. Sounds a lot like the freshman,sophmore, junior year etc. only Bruce labeled it level 1-2-3. No one ,including the recepiants seem to know exactly what Bruce meant by issuing the certificates. Guess it only became important after Bruce died.


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## beauty_in_the_sai

*My* JKD will *not* be *your* JKD, *after* we both reach profeciency in basic JKD techniques/concepts, and understanding of *our* weaknesses. But you are *not* understanding JKD concepts if you never trained in basic JKD techniques for sufficient time to learn what *your* weaknesses are. You can't just read up a bit on JKD and make an assessment. This is why JKD people *want to train with and study other arts,.. to bring us out of our condition of ignorance. *There are definite techniques Bruce believed one should train in and try to master before daring to cast them aside as not worthy. This is a major reason so few try JKD.. it is daunting and conceptual, and few really understand it even after trying it for a while.. and most cannot put into execution the flow from range to range, seamless transition from technique to technique in various arts, without stopping to think about "what's next?" This rigidity makes executing JKD impossible. It takes time and meditation on the concepts and natural ability. Bruce indeed said *"not one in 10,000 men can do my art."*



I think since it was Bruce Lee's art, and he acknowledged that it was HIS art, he wanted it to die with him, and he wanted us to find our own personal way or art. Martial arts seems so much more rigid when you are doing it someone elses way instead of the flowing way of your own mindset.


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## Feisty Mouse

b.i.t.s. - do you train in JKD?


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## beauty_in_the_sai

Feisty Mouse said:
			
		

> b.i.t.s. - do you train in JKD?


Yes I have. I liked the footwork mainly. I didn't like the art overall though. I think Bruce Lee wanted us all to take what we like out of the arts and have our own way, so I took his footwork, which was fabulous.


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## 47MartialMan

If personal or individualize accomplishements are the goal, then why would anyone want to dangle JKD certification?


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## beauty_in_the_sai

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> If personal or individualize accomplishements are the goal, then why would anyone want to dangle JKD certification?


I like that one martial. Lol


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## 47MartialMan

Let me emphasize:

By personal or individualize accomplishements-meaning per skill(s) or physical abilities.


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## beauty_in_the_sai

achilles said:
			
		

> I understand your point, but then to be consistant you must also say that Shotokan died with Funakoshi and no one can really teach that art. The same goes for Tae Kwon Do and definitely Ninjitsu.


 
I agree with you one this one. My own art will die with me as will anyone else's that made their own style.


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## jujutsu_indonesia

In Indonesia, Mr. Yuri Amadin (http://www.jkdindonesia.com/) value his Instructor's license from Mr. Burton Richardson a lot.

Because it is his claim of legitimacy regarding his authentic JKD lineage.

So I guess, yes the JKD license does means something


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