# New to Martial Arts



## Chrisinmd (Oct 31, 2018)

Hi! my name is Chris and I decided to do martial arts but I need help figuring out which one I should do. Please tell me which you do and suggest one I should do, thanks! 

I am 41 years old, 5"11 and weight 185 ibs.  I would say im in average shape. Workout at the gym about 3 times a week. Cardio workout on a elliptical machine. Could probably lose about 10 pounds though.

The options for martial arts training in my area are Wing Chun Kung Fu, Boxing, Mu Thai, BJJ, Judo, Karate.

I have never trained in any martial arts before. 

What I looking to get out martial arts training is to gain self confidence and learn some practical self defense skills.

My initial thoughts looking at my options of martial arts styles is to go with boxing.  Most likely the easiest and quickest to learn.  I would think boxing is a good option for a street fight / bar fight scenario.  Not that I get in those very often at all but you never know.

My concerns with Asian martial arts Kung Fu, Karate, Mu Thai is that im thinking they take a very long time to get good and are very complicated to learn.

Anyway that's my story.  Thoughts?


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## Headhunter (Oct 31, 2018)

Your size and weight makes and fitness makes no difference to anything. If you want to do boxing go for it. It's what you want to do that's the only factor. 

Also I always wonder why the whole it takes longer to learn is a factor....well even if it does take to longer (which I don't agree with anyway) so what? What's the rush? You got a deadline or something?

Just choose and go train


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Hi! my name is Chris and I decided to do martial arts but I need help figuring out which one I should do. Please tell me which you do and suggest one I should do, thanks!
> 
> I am 41 years old, 5"11 and weight 185 ibs.  I would say im in average shape. Workout at the gym about 3 times a week. Cardio workout on a elliptical machine. Could probably lose about 10 pounds though.
> 
> ...


Yes well, boxing has a lot less thibgs in it to learn, but then it has a lot less when youve learnt it,

Its impossible to make meanibgful comparisons between different ma, and it rather depends what standard " good" is !

You SHOULD have useful skills for self defence well within 12months no matter what you do, that is your substantially better than you are now, if youd have reached a higher standard of self defence if youd done somethibg else isimpossible to know.


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2018)

I dunno. Sure boxing has less moves in it's syllabus than some other styles; basically 4 punches(and variations), with some situational movement and positioning.

With that said I would say it's actually one of the more complex arts to learn properly. This is because even though it has less moves and positions, it is far more developed than most styles inso far as actually using these tools.

A lot of schools that teach traditional Asian styles(although not exclusively these) neglect the whole 'how to use it' side of the equation almost entirely, relying on cooperative partners to practice their syllabus rather than live trials and testing.

Rule of thumb; if there aren't any gloves , shinguards or headgear in the gym you are probably wasting your time if you want something functional.


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## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes well, boxing has a lot less thibgs in it to learn, but then it has a lot less when youve learnt it,
> 
> Its impossible to make meanibgful comparisons between different ma, and it rather depends what standard " good" is !
> 
> You SHOULD have useful skills for self defence well within 12months no matter what you do, that is your substantially better than you are now, if youd have reached a higher standard of self defence if youd done somethibg else isimpossible to know.



I can't comment on boxing since I have never done it.  But my observations are that there is more to it that a simple throwing of a punch or two.  And you will find that true of any martial art worth learning inho.

I am a Hapkidoist, so my preferred recommendation is towards grappling, but it may not be for you.  Mua Thai has some boxing and also kicks.  I have never studied it but it seems you can expect a lot of hits to your body.  BJJ has a lot of good moves but I think it is to quick to go to the ground.  Which Karate do you have in your area?


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I can't comment on boxing since I have never done it.  But my observations are that there is more to it that a simple throwing of a punch or two.  And you will find that true of any martial art worth learning inho.
> 
> I am a Hapkidoist, so my preferred recommendation is towards grappling, but it may not be for you.  Mua Thai has some boxing and also kicks.  I have never studied it but it seems you can expect a lot of hits to your body.  BJJ has a lot of good moves but I think it is to quick to go to the ground.  Which Karate do you have in your area?


Yes , but the context of the post was how good can yiu be at self defence in the short term, not how good at boxing matches can you be if you put a couple of decades into it.

From a self defence point of view, being proficient at throwing a couple of punches is all your likely to need, unless the guy grabs you, in wwhich case a couple of throws and maybe a few kicks will come in handy. And boxing falls a bit short on those, but the better you are at boxing the less that matters, but that of course takes a lit more time to develop,

But my pointt remains , 6 months into any ma, you should be in a position to robustly defend yourself against most people, even if yiyr unlikely to ever reach the regional finals


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## marques (Oct 31, 2018)

Muay Thai takes a while to be good at everything, but the basics will be trained every training, so you get able to apply some stuff quite quickly. 

In my opinion, the down side of MT for adults is the fitness demand. But it does not seem an issue for you.

All other options may be ok. As always, instructors and training partners do matter and it you can only check on site. But you started well by checking the available options.


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2018)

While I appreciate the fact that you're trying to learn something quickly, I think you shouldn't write off certain martial arts because they take "too long". Unless you're planning on wearing a costume and beat up criminals within the next 6 months, I think you would benefit more from a system you can grow old with and constantly learn things over the course of your life.

Boxing is a wonderful system if you intend to augment what you already know. I personally wouldn't do boxing as a replacement for a long term MA because there's only so much you can do with boxing, and frankly over the long term Boxing can cause some serious injuries. After about a year or two of boxing training, you really don't need further training unless you plan to box professionally. 

Given your age and goals, I would recommend Bjj. It'll give you the self defense you want, it'll be easier on your body than Judo and Boxing, and you can do it for competition or for simply studying martial arts.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Hi! my name is Chris and I decided to do martial arts but I need help figuring out which one I should do. Please tell me which you do and suggest one I should do, thanks!

*I do ITF style Tae Kwon Do.  My school is mostly traditional, but we do spar with headgear, shin and instep guards, and chest protectors, so there is some contact.*

I am 41 years old, 5"11 and weight 185 ibs.  I would say im in average shape. Workout at the gym about 3 times a week. Cardio workout on a elliptical machine. Could probably lose about 10 pounds though.

*While you are not exactly young for MA, you have no physical limitations that would prevent you from starting a MA program.  I was both older, and heavier than you when I started TKD earlier this year.  That said, MA training will work your body much differently than just stepping on an elliptical machine 3 times a week, so be prepared for a little soreness initially.*

The options for martial arts training in my area are Wing Chun Kung Fu, Boxing, Mu Thai, BJJ, Judo, Karate.
What I looking to get out martial arts training is to gain self confidence and learn some practical self defense skills.
*Any one of the styles you mentioned above should fit the bill.  Boxing, Muy Thai, Judo and BJJ especially should be focused on martial sport more than martial arts, which if you are looking to mix it up against live competition more or less right away.  Karate, Kung Fu, and other traditional martial arts will have at least part of the curriculum based on kata, or forms.  This is where you need to know yourself.  In the early colored belt testings, a lot of martial arts base advancement on knowledge or mastery of curriculum, especially forms, and not sparring or combat.  Something like MMA, Boxing, Muy Thai, and BJJ especially are all about fighting against a resisting opponent, all the time.*

My initial thoughts looking at my options of martial arts styles is to go with boxing.  Most likely the easiest and quickest to learn.  I would think boxing is a good option for a street fight / bar fight scenario.  Not that I get in those very often at all but you never know.

*I have a lot of respect for boxers, but I wouldn't assume boxing is easy to learn and especially not easy to practice.  As a 41 year old, you might ask yourself how much you want to get hit, both to the body and to the head.  As to your idea about good options in a bar fight or street fight, I would partially agree with this caveat.  Boxing teaches you how to fight against one skilled opponent.  So it stands to reason that if you can handle yourself against a trained fighter, you should be able to take down a drunk idiot at a bar.  (same goes for other martial sports like BJJ, muy Thai, and Judo).  On the other hand, boxing teaches you to punch hard with hands taped up wearing boxing gloves.  You just might break your hand doing the same punches bare knuckled that you practice in a boxing gym wearing boxing gloves.  

Finally, I would suggest that at age 41, you shouldn't be anywhere near a bar fight.  Getting in a bar fight could result in your getting arrested and charged with a crime, the severity of the crime dependent on the damage you inflict.  And, in this day and age, you just might get yourself killed, if the guy you are beating up has friends, or perhaps is carrying a weapon. (or might use something like a glass or bottle as a weapon)  So again, while I agree it is good to be confident that if a psychopath attacks you and in a life and death situation, you stand a better chance of surviving, in practice, I would say to make it a priority never to get into a street fight or bar fight.*

My concerns with Asian martial arts Kung Fu, Karate, Mu Thai is that im thinking they take a very long time to get good and are very complicated to learn.
_*Not really.  I cannot really speak about Kung Fu, I started back with TKD after a long hiatus from the practice, so for me the first few months were a process of shaking the rust off, and since then working back to where I was a long time ago. But I have seen a fair number of people start up.  For those who put in the work, you can see a lot of growth in the first 3 or 4 months.  A lot of folks who can't even throw a basic punch or front kick are mixing it up in sparring 3 or 4 months in.  Not to say they are great fighters, as that takes a lot of commitment, but I imagine that is equally true of boxing.*_


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

marques said:


> Muay Thai takes a while to be good at everything, but the basics will be trained every training, so you get able to apply some stuff quite quickly.
> 
> In my opinion, the down side of MT for adults is the fitness demand. But it does not seem an issue for you.
> 
> All other options may be ok. As always, instructors and training partners do matter and it you can only check on site. But you started well by checking the available options.


My only concern with Muy Thai for a 41 year old novice is, how much, and how often do you want to get hit?  I thought about this issue when I came back to MA at age 53, and at least for now, I decided that the modest about of contact we practice in TKD was enough for me.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

Hey Chris and welcome to the forum.   41 is not too old to learn ANY martial art but you may notice that there are less people interested in training for competitions as you get past a certain age. 

I do Kyokushin karate and started when I was in 41.  I picked Kyokushin karate because that is where my kids went AND the instruction they were receiving was top notch.   I think that is the most important criteria for selecting a school, more so than the style you will be learning.   What does the style matter if the instruction given isn't going to challenge you to become a better version of yourself ?

A few markers to look for would be: 
- Do they have a free trial or a few free classes to allow you to see if the type of instruction appeals to you.
- Are the instructors capable of doing what they ask their students to do.  If they ask their students to do 50 sit ups are they doing the sit ups with the students or standing there watching.
- Are there a good number of advanced students in the classes and could you tell who was an advanced student from their technique as opposed to telling who the advanced students are from their garb. 

If you are going to put your time and attention into training to learn a martial art, I expect you would not like to waste your time with a place that is only interested in the $$$.

Good luck and keep us posted on what you do.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 31, 2018)

As others have noted, your build is irrelevant to your choice. Any of the arts you mention will work just fine for someone of your size, age, and condition.

The general answer to these "which art should I choose" posts is always the same. Visit as many of the available schools as you can. Pay attention to the general atmosphere, teaching style, schedule, location, and costs. You might find the best art in the world, but if the teacher doesn't click with you or you don't enjoy the atmosphere or you can't afford the tuition or the schedule or location are too inconvenient then you won't end up training consistently.

I can give you some general ideas about the experiences you might find in the arts you list and how those might translate into improved fighting ability. ("Self-defense" is a broader, more amorphous term. Most self-defense is not fighting and most fighting is not self-defense, although there is some overlap.)

*Wing Chun*: WC is a specialized art focused on close range striking. It has some good physical principles and can be effective. However many schools do little or no free sparring and focus almost exclusively on stylized drills for countering other WC practitioners. Without sparring and pressure testing against non-WC stylists, a practitioner is likely to fall apart against a tough opponent.

*Boxing:* A good boxing gym is one of the fastest routes to solid unarmed fighting skills. You'll gain good physical and mental conditioning, the ability to hit hard and non-telegraphically, the ability to evade punches, good footwork, and the ability to not freak out when you get hit. Downsides - very limited grappling (just some basic clinching) and you won't work on preventing takedowns or how to protect yourself on the ground if you do get taken down.

*Muay Thai*: Much the same as boxing, except that you will also learn kicks, knees, elbows, and solid clinching skills. The wider range of skills covered means that you will have less practice time to refine your punching and footwork to a high level. Depending on where you are located, the available Muay Thai instruction might be anywhere from mediocre amateur to world-class professional.

*BJJ*: Primarily a grappling art, specialized in ground fighting. Any legit BJJ school will get you in great shape and help you develop excellent ground fighting skills. The thing to watch for is whether the school has retained the self-defense curriculum: punch defense, takedowns, standing clinches, dealing with common real world standing attacks. Many schools these days have started to focus almost exclusively on sport BJJ, which is mostly about grappling on the ground. A lot of the sport applications can carry over into self-defense ... but not if you can't defend against strikes and get the fight to the ground in the first place. If you can find a BJJ school which devotes a good amount of practice time to dealing with strikes and stand up situations, then this would be an excellent option.

*Judo:* The parent art of BJJ. Primarily a grappling art, Judo focuses more on throwing an opponent to the ground. Judo does include ground grappling, but it's typically not as developed in that department as BJJ. Pros: You'll get in great shape, you'll learn how to throw people around, you'll learn to fall without being hurt (one of the best self-defense skills out there), you'll learn to keep from being taken down, you'll learn enough ground fighting to handle most untrained opponents easily. Cons: In most schools you won't get practice defending against punches. If you have the option of studying both boxing and Judo, they make a great combination.

*Karate:* There can be a huge degree of variation in what you find in different karate schools. Some focus heavily on physical conditioning and full-contact sparring. Some focus on solo forms as performance art and tippy-tappy tagging the air sparring. Some are all about kata (sequences of techniques performed solo) while others do no kata at all. Some are just focused on striking. Some have a blend of striking and grappling. Some instructors have a solid understanding of unarmed fighting. Other instructors are clueless and delusional. You have to check out the individual school to see whether it's worthwhile.

Hope that helps. If you can provide links to the websites of your local schools we might be able to spot any potential red flags.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> Hey Chris and welcome to the forum.   41 is not too old to learn ANY martial art but you may notice that there are less people interested in training for competitions as you get past a certain age.
> 
> I do Kyokushin karate and started when I was in 41.  I picked Kyokushin karate because that is where my kids went AND the instruction they were receiving was top notch.   I think that is the most important criteria for selecting a school, more so than the style you will be learning.   What does the style matter if the instruction given isn't going to challenge you to become a better version of yourself ?
> 
> ...


I would agree with these 3 with a caveat on the second.  Of course, the teacher should be physically capable of doing what they ask the students to do.  But, the instructor might have already taught classes earlier in the day, so I don't necessarily expect the head instructor to be doing pushups and situps along with the class every time.


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## WaterGal (Oct 31, 2018)

I'm going to give you basically the same advice I give everyone who asks this question, which is don't focus just on the style. The most important thing is that the classes are convenient to you and you enjoy them. No matter how great a certain style is, if you have to drive an hour to take class and everybody's a jerk there, you're not going to stick with it.

Here's what I'd recommend:
1) Make a list of the schools that are close enough to your home or work that they're convenient for you to attend twice a week (or more, but twice a week is a good schedule to start with).
2) Look at their class schedules, and see if they have classes for adults that fit your schedule. Cross off any schools that don't.
3) See if the schools have some kind of trial membership you can do. Just like gyms, a lot of martial arts schools offer something like, "2 weeks for $20", "one free class", etc, so you can try the school out without making a big commitment.
4) Check out the schools' websites, social media, etc. Stop by during a class. You can get a sense of the "vibe" of a place from these things. Does this seem like a place you'd enjoy training at? Does this seem like a place where you'll learn useful skills?
5) If you like the vibe, sign up for the trial class or trial membership. See if you like it.

If your goal is to learn practical self-defense quickly, I'd suggest starting your search with the boxing, BJJ, and Muay Thai programs. But don't rule out other options.


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## Chrisinmd (Oct 31, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Your size and weight makes and fitness makes no difference to anything. If you want to do boxing go for it. It's what you want to do that's the only factor.
> 
> Also I always wonder why the whole it takes longer to learn is a factor....well even if it does take to longer (which I don't agree with anyway) so what? What's the rush? You got a deadline or something?
> 
> Just choose and go train



Thanks for the response.  I don't have a deadline or rush per say. My thinking was just that if I happen to get mugged next week for example I would be much better able to defend myself with boxing as compared to something like Kung Fu which my impression is that is a lot more complicated to learn.  Could be wrong about that I don't know.

Also my thinking was since I don't have any background in fighting boxing would be a good foundation to begin with.


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## Chrisinmd (Oct 31, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As others have noted, your build is irrelevant to your choice. Any of the arts you mention will work just fine for someone of your size, age, and condition.
> 
> The general answer to these "which art should I choose" posts is always the same. Visit as many of the available schools as you can. Pay attention to the general atmosphere, teaching style, schedule, location, and costs. You might find the best art in the world, but if the teacher doesn't click with you or you don't enjoy the atmosphere or you can't afford the tuition or the schedule or location are too inconvenient then you won't end up training consistently.
> 
> ...


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## Chrisinmd (Oct 31, 2018)

Here are the  2 schools I am looking at

IFC MMA – Mixed Martial Arts and Fitness In Gaithersburg, MD

Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Kung Fu School | Montgomery County, Maryland


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## jobo (Oct 31, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Thanks for the response.  I don't have a deadline or rush per say. My thinking was just that if I happen to get mugged next week for example I would be much better able to defend myself with boxing as compared to something like Kung Fu which my impression is that is a lot more complicated to learn.  Could be wrong about that I don't know.
> 
> Also my thinking was since I don't have any background in fighting boxing would be a good foundation to begin with.


Youve more or less just ignored everything people have said ? If you want to do boxing , do boxing, its as goid as anything else for general street defence, but be realistic, you wont have learned much by next week, realstical your look at 6 months to get the basics and a year or tWo to call yoyrself proficient, much the same as every other art, just try not to get mugged before next april


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## Hanzou (Oct 31, 2018)

As others have said, visit each school of interest and choose the one that's right for YOU.

However, if there's no hard sparring, walk out the door.


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## Xue Sheng (Oct 31, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Hi! my name is Chris and I decided to do martial arts but I need help figuring out which one I should do. Please tell me which you do and suggest one I should do, thanks!
> 
> I am 41 years old, 5"11 and weight 185 ibs.  I would say im in average shape. Workout at the gym about 3 times a week. Cardio workout on a elliptical machine. Could probably lose about 10 pounds though.
> 
> ...



Go check them all out, try then if possible and then decide what feels right and fits you best.

My youngest was in TKD, also I tried to get her to do a few things with me, but she was never going to hit anyone. However, she loves Aikido and has no problem throwing folks on the ground if need be.

You may do great and and love boxing, or you may find you really do not want to hit anyone, you may enjoy BJJ or Judo, or you may find grappling not your cup of tea. It really does not matter which style from your list that I recommend, you may not like training it, you may not like the teacher, you may not like the atmosphere or attitude of the school, You really need to go give them a try, find what you like and it becomes a joy to train. Train it because I recommended it or just because you think it is the quickest way...you may hate it and then you will not train it


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I would agree with these 3 with a caveat on the second.  Of course, the teacher should be physically capable of doing what they ask the students to do.  But, the instructor might have already taught classes earlier in the day, so I don't necessarily expect the head instructor to be doing pushups and situps along with the class every time.


We have an instructor in our school that is 58 and teaches multiple classes.   People a 1/3 his age have a hard time keeping up.   If I had a choice of schools to join and one had an instructor that would do every sit up/push up vs one that had to 'take a break' when he taught, I would pick the school that had the guy that did the work. 

Sure, everyone can have an off day or be injured but all things created equally, that's the guy I want to learn from because he has a level of fitness and work ethic that I want to have when I am studying a MA.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> We have an instructor in our school that is 58 and teaches multiple classes.   People a 1/3 his age have a hard time keeping up.   If I had a choice of schools to join and one had an instructor that would do every sit up/push up vs one that had to 'take a break' when he taught, I would pick the school that had the guy that did the work.
> 
> Sure, everyone can have an off day or be injured but all things created equally, that's the guy I want to learn from because he has a level of fitness and work ethic that I want to have when I am studying a MA.


I thought the point of your original reply was to separate out the real martial arts masters from martial arts frauds, but you seem to be saying something completely different.  There is fitness, there is martial arts knowledge and skill, and there is the ability to teach.  While all 3 are important, the 2nd and 3rd are most important, while the 1st is less important.  Why?  Well, because it is not beyond the realm of possibility for a 25 year old 2nd Degree black belt to be much more fit than a 75 year old Grandmaster.

Put another way, if I sought out a Grandmaster and was fortunate enough to have someone like that teach me, I am not paying him to watch him do push ups and sit ups.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I thought the point of your original reply was to separate out the real martial arts masters from martial arts frauds, but you seem to be saying something completely different.  There is fitness, there is martial arts knowledge and skill, and there is the ability to teach.  While all 3 are important, the 2nd and 3rd are most important, while the 1st is less important.  Why?  Well, because it is not beyond the realm of possibility for a 25 year old 2nd Degree black belt to be much more fit than a 75 year old Grandmaster.


I acknowledge that the way the second point was offered originally can be construed to weed out the 'fraudsters' but I also think it is a valid point to ensure that the MA you are doing has a level of fitness requirement for the students as well as for the instructors.  It not only displays the increased level of fitness from training but it demonstrates the work ethic. 

Absolutely, 25 year old 2nd Degree BB can be much more fit than a 75 year old Grand Master.   If I had a choice of schools where the head instructor was a fit 25 year old that did all the sit up and push ups vs a 75 year old that did all the sit up and push ups, I would probably go with the 75 year old Grand Master.   If he can do that at his age, why couldn't I ?   

It's a general flag but if you prefer not to subscribe to it I would respect your choice.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I acknowledge that the way the second point was offered originally can be construed to weed out the 'fraudsters' but I also think it is a valid point to ensure that the MA you are doing has a level of fitness requirement for the students as well as for the instructors.  It not only displays the increased level of fitness from training but it demonstrates the work ethic.
> 
> Absolutely, 25 year old 2nd Degree BB can be much more fit than a 75 year old Grand Master.  If I had a choice of schools where the head instructor was a fit 25 year old that did all the sit up and push ups vs a 75 year old that did all the sit up and push ups, I would probably go with the 75 year old Grand Master. If he can do that at his age, why couldn't I ?
> 
> It's a general flag but if you prefer not to subscribe to it I would respect your choice.


It is easy to see if your school has a fitness requirement for its instructors, and especially its students.  And if a large percentage of the intermediate or advanced students are out of shape, it is at least something to consider.

2nd generation instructors are getting increasingly rare.  My old Tang Soo Do teacher must be in his late 70s now.  I haven't seen him in over 30 years, but I imagine he isn't as fit as he was back when he taught me.  (and for that matter, neither am I) That said, those who are fortunate enough to train with him probably don't care that he is likely 20% or even 30%less athletic than he was 30 or 40 years ago.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> It is easy to see if your school has a fitness requirement for its instructors, and especially its students.  And if a large percentage of the intermediate or advanced students are out of shape, it is at least something to consider.
> 
> 2nd generation instructors are getting increasingly rare.  My old Tang Soo Do teacher must be in his late 70s now.  I haven't seen him in over 30 years, but I imagine he isn't as fit as he was back when he taught me.  (and for that matter, neither am I) That said, those who are fortunate enough to train with him probably don't care that he is likely 20% or even 30%less athletic than he was 30 or 40 years ago.


We may feel differently about the 'fitness' requirements and that is fine by me.  I think we both agree that fitness is important when taking a MA and for me that extension applies also to the instructor.   It speaks to me about their work ethic.  If your 70 old instructor gets down and does the work, even if it is not as much as I can do, I would still respect that he is asking people to do the work he is WILLING to do.

To me it is a large red flag when I see instructors who DO NOT do the work but want their students to do them as they 'count'.   Sure it could be their 2nd or 3rd class but the message should be the same, do as I do, not only what I say.   Chances are, if you have a guy that is willing to do the work he will teach you more than the fitness requirement.  He will teach you to lead by example and not just because he has the 'rank'.   The truth always comes out on the tatami.  I have found this statement to ring true throughout the years but I acknowledge that others may feel differently.  That is their journey not mine.


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## Tony Dismukes (Oct 31, 2018)

For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.


If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice.  The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.   

I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidance........ok.  Different strokes for different folks.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> We may feel differently about the 'fitness' requirements and that is fine by me.  I think we both agree that fitness is important when taking a MA and for me that extension applies also to the instructor.   It speaks to me about their work ethic.  If your 70 old instructor gets down and does the work, even if it is not as much as I can do, I would still respect that he is asking people to do the work he is WILLING to do.
> 
> To me it is a large red flag when I see instructors who DO NOT do the work but want their students to do them as they 'count'.   Sure it could be their 2nd or 3rd class but the message should be the same, do as I do, not only what I say.   Chances are, if you have a guy that is willing to do the work he will teach you more than the fitness requirement.  He will teach you to lead by example and not just because he has the 'rank'.   The truth always comes out on the tatami.  I have found this statement to ring true throughout the years but I acknowledge that others may feel differently.  That is their journey not mine.



At risk of beating a dead horse, back in my old Tang Soo Do days, the head instructor wasn't even there for the physical fitness part.  That was done by the next highest ranking person at the dojang.  Might have been an assistant instructor, or even just a high ranking student.  My current head teacher does do the entire class, though he does not do the pushups with the class, though I have no doubt he could do them easily.


----------



## oftheherd1 (Oct 31, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> For what it’s worth, most of the boxing coaches I’ve seen don’t do exercises with their students. Their role is seen as providing guidance and feedback, not being a physical role model.



In the Hapkido I studied, my GM had arthritis.  There were things he could not do well.  But teaching he could do very well.  He did not do exercises with us or any of the other classes he gave in a day.  But he surely knew all the techniques an 8th Dan GM was supposed to and he could teach them well.

From the few GMs I have seen, they don't need the physical prowess of we younger students.  They do the techniques so effortlessly and yet so effectively, they don't need the physical stamina, just the profound knowledge of the techniques.


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## mrt2 (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice.  The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.
> 
> *I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidanc*e........ok.  Different strokes for different folks.



I would say it depends.  If watching your head instructor do push ups is motivating for you, then I suppose that is fair.  I disagree.  Motivation comes from all kinds of places.  I know my head instructor can do all the techniques he is teaching me, but.  Sometimes he does all the techniques along with the class, sometimes he observes and gives feedback and guidance.  Sometimes the feedback is gentle or mildly encouraging, other times more critical.

BTW, my old instructor almost never warmed up the class himself, yet the reverence his students had for him was off the charts.  He demonstrated techniques in class, and occasionally at martial arts demos that was off the charts compared to what the next highest ranking instructor was able to do.  IMO, way more motivating than doing pushups.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> If folks do not mind that their teacher/coach/instructor is NOT doing the work they are being asked to do, that is their individual choice.  The proof is in the pudding as the saying goes.
> 
> I think it is a fair assumption when browsing for schools to have a preference for a guy or gal that puts their push ups where their mouth is but if he can teach you to be effective at the MA by just providing feedback and guidance........ok.  Different strokes for different folks.


Do you prefer your instructors to participate in the technical drills, or watch how you are doing them and motivate you/correct your form? To me it is the same thing; if the instructor is doing pushups with me, he will not be able to tell me if i am slacking, or if my butt is up too high, or some other issue. I assume he does his own workout outside of class, just like i assume he practices his own techniques outside of class.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> I would say it depends.  If watching your head instructor do push ups is motivating for you, then I suppose that is fair.  I disagree.  Motivation comes from all kinds of places.  I know my head instructor can do all the techniques he is teaching me, but.  Sometimes he does all the techniques along with the class, sometimes he observes and gives feedback and guidance.  Sometimes the feedback is gentle or mildly encouraging, other times more critical.
> 
> BTW, my old instructor almost never warmed up the class himself, yet the reverence his students had for him was off the charts.  He demonstrated techniques in class, and occasionally at martial arts demos that was off the charts compared to what the next highest ranking instructor was able to do.  IMO, way more motivating than doing pushups.


I understand the loyalty and the reverence you have for your instructor.  We have no issue, believe me.  My comment is not about just being able to do push ups but the work ethic behind the instructor 'willing' to do the push ups.   If you feel like my comments are denigrating your head instructor, that is not what I had meant at all.    

I am from a Kyokushin background so in our style and dojo, the ability to do the work is highly prized over someone that can only explain how to do something.    I find it inspirational that a 58 year old can out work kids a 1/3 his age.  It makes me feel that if he can do it, so can I.   I also think this way of thinking is a fairly good indicator that the time, energy, effort and money I am going to spend can be seen through the students when I look around the room.   Then again, that is what I seek and how I choose to select where I train.  I acknowledge others may use other criteria but it may be more difficult to spot the fraudsters without this metric.   My two cents.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Do you prefer your instructors to participate in the technical drills, or watch how you are doing them and motivate you/correct your form? To me it is the same thing; if the instructor is doing pushups with me, he will not be able to tell me if i am slacking, or if my butt is up too high, or some other issue. I assume he does his own workout outside of class, just like i assume he practices his own techniques outside of class.


I would hope they would be able to do both.   As much as we are leading the class (instructing) we are also training as well.  There are times to correct form and there are times to just do the work.   I am sure there are tons of examples of people that cannot or will not or find a reason to not do the push ups.  Again, if people do not mind that their instructors are pushing them to their limits and are not willing to do the work themselves, that is their choice.   I think it makes the weeding out of McDojos more difficult but hey that's me.   I look for a school and instructors that fit the mindset of what I think is valuable.   That doesn't mean that I am going to an MA school to learn how to do push ups.  I am going to an MA school that will allow me to surround myself with people that are not only CAPABLE and WILLING  to do the work but are willing to be ROLE MODELS for me to follow. 

I accept there are others that do not feel the same way about this.  I wish them well in their training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> I would hope they would be able to do both.   As much as we are leading the class (instructing) we are also training as well.  There are times to correct form and there are times to just do the work.   I am sure there are tons of examples of people that cannot or will not or find a reason to not do the push ups.  Again, if people do not mind that their instructors are pushing them to their limits and are not willing to do the work themselves, that is their choice.   I think it makes the weeding out of McDojos more difficult but hey that's me.   I look for a school and instructors that fit the mindset of what I think is valuable.   That doesn't mean that I am going to an MA school to learn how to do push ups.  I am going to an MA school that will allow me to surround myself with people that are not only CAPABLE and WILLING  to do the work and are willing to be ROLE MODELS for me to follow.
> 
> I accept there are others that do not feel the same way about this.  I wish them well in their training.


Yup, two different reasons for being there, so two different things we're looking for. I go specifically to learn and train, so I would rather the senseis spending their time teaching me, in the same way if I went to a math class, I wouldn't care if the teacher did the math problems. If I wanted someone to be a role model for me, I wouldn't look to a teacher in exactly the same way, so I would be looking for a different dojo. Different strokes for different folks.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Rule of thumb; if there aren't any gloves , shinguards or headgear in the gym you are probably wasting your time if you want something functional.


Eh, I would disagree with this. A lot of schools have those things, but then do almost no-contact, or have rules so limiting you're not getting something functional anyway. Meanwhile other schools do bare-knuckle sparring, or have headgear optional, but teach functional martial arts and have functional sparring. I prefer using no gear whatsoever, which has lead to a fair share of bruises. 

I'd rather look at the level of compliance and the sparring ruleset to determine if something is functional or not.


----------



## Martial D (Oct 31, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> Eh, I would disagree with this. A lot of schools have those things, but then do almost no-contact, or have rules so limiting you're not getting something functional anyway. Meanwhile other schools do bare-knuckle sparring, or have headgear optional, but teach functional martial arts and have functional sparring. I prefer using no gear whatsoever, which has lead to a fair share of bruises.
> 
> I'd rather look at the level of compliance and the sparring ruleset to determine if something is functional or not.


Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.

IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.

As for the second bit, I would just as soon pan the place that puts it's students in harm's way in such a reckless fashion as letting them fight without gear as I would the place that doesn't have them sparring at all. Sooner in fact.. not sparring at all leaves you without any real applicable skill, but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.

Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.
> 
> IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.
> 
> ...


I agree with the first part. For the second, headgear doesn't protect you all that much; IIRC, headgear can actually hurt you more than help. Gloves help protect your fists, but doesn't really lesson the damage that you do to the other person by a significant amount, especially if you're not going full power. And if you punch properly, the chances of breaking your fist/wrist is a lot lower than people seem to think.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Meh. All cars that can start have working engines, but not all cars that won't start don't have working engines.
> 
> IE yes, sparring doesn't guarantee good training, but a lack of it guarantees you are LARPing.
> 
> ...


I'm also assuming this is all for striking schools...with grappling the gear needed changes. Don't need headgear or shinguards, but I would recommend a cup and mouthpiece (same as striking) anyway. Maybe wrestling shoes and some tape, depending on the person.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> but it beats being completely reckless to the point you won't be able to train at all due to injury.
> 
> Sure, you can sort of hit people and pretend spar without gear, but it isn't the real thing. And if it is, it's certainly no place for learners.


I am going to have to disagree with you here.  Most people from a Kyokushin background would not find this to be true.  In fact we would find the experience completely the opposite.  That being said Kyokushin may not be for everyone.


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## Martial D (Oct 31, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> I agree with the first part. For the second, headgear doesn't protect you all that much; IIRC, headgear can actually hurt you more than help. Gloves help protect your fists, but doesn't really lesson the damage that you do to the other person by a significant amount, especially if you're not going full power. And if you punch properly, the chances of breaking your fist/wrist is a lot lower than people seem to think.


I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't do a lot of hard sparring. The difference between getting hit with a 16 oz glove and a bare fist aren't even the same universe.

Unless you are talking about heavilly regulated no headshot sparring or stop after one point style sparring, in which case going no gear is pretty common. 

To clarify I'm talking about full continuous sparring with striking and grappling, or full continuous striking only sparring.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 31, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't do a lot of hard sparring. The difference between getting hit with a 16 oz glove and a bare fist aren't even the same universe.
> 
> Unless you are talking about heavilly regulated no headshot sparring or stop after one point style sparring, in which case going no gear is pretty common.
> 
> To clarify I'm talking about full continuous sparring with striking and grappling, or full continuous striking only sparring.


I no longer do hard sparring, as a result of concussions (mentioned it before, they mostly came from hard sparring, with and without headgear). I actually don't practice striking in general because of risk of future concussions. But I have done hard contact to the body, with no contact to the head as well, and that worked fine, it was actually my personal favorite. It tended to result in lower guards, but still good fun. And I've done light/medium contact without gloves/protective gear. Honestly, I didn't notice a huge difference in my skill brought about from hard contact and light/medium contact, or any changes in my tactics. The only big thing is that doing hard contact gives you a bit more respect for the other persons strikes. I think that if most people trained light to medium contact (with or without gloves), and hard contact on occasion to the body (with or without gloves), they would get a lot of applicable use from their training. I don't think there should ever be hard contact to the head, with or without gloves and headgear, because I've experienced it plenty of times and honestly getting hit more in the head didn't seem to make me any better at absorbing hits to the head.


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## Buka (Oct 31, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> We have an instructor in our school that is 58 and teaches multiple classes.   People a 1/3 his age have a hard time keeping up.   If I had a choice of schools to join and one had an instructor that would do every sit up/push up vs one that had to 'take a break' when he taught, I would pick the school that had the guy that did the work.
> 
> Sure, everyone can have an off day or be injured but all things created equally, that's the guy I want to learn from because he has a level of fitness and work ethic that I want to have when I am studying a MA.



I with you.  Sometimes if I'm teaching a technical aspect of the arts I usually just teach. But if I'm running warm ups or class exercises or, shall we say, inspirational exercise, I'm doing every push up, every sit up, every everything with everyone. Even when I don't want to. I know there will come a day....but until that day....I plan to do a whole boot load more. But I'm only 67, plenty time left.

And to me, pushups are more of an exercise in self discipline than arm work. Just the way I was taught.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 31, 2018)

Buka said:


> I with you.  Sometimes if I'm teaching a technical aspect of the arts I usually just teach. But if I'm running warm ups or class exercises or, shall we say, inspirational exercise, I'm doing every push up, every sit up, every everything with everyone. Even when I don't want to. I know there will come a day....but until that day....I plan to do a whole boot load more. But I'm only 67, plenty time left.
> 
> And to me, pushups are more of an exercise in self discipline than arm work. Just the way I was taught.


Osu, that is very inspirational.  I hope be doing the same when i reach 67.   Good on ya !


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## dvcochran (Oct 31, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Thanks for the response.  I don't have a deadline or rush per say. My thinking was just that if I happen to get mugged next week for example I would be much better able to defend myself with boxing as compared to something like Kung Fu which my impression is that is a lot more complicated to learn.  Could be wrong about that I don't know.
> 
> Also my thinking was since I don't have any background in fighting boxing would be a good foundation to begin with.


Welcome to the forum. Thanks for dropping in and asking questions.
It sounds like a big part of your focus in on being attacked or mugged. You may also want to look in a school or a program that is heavy in situational awareness and specific self defense. Adding this to an of the styles you listed would be strong.


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## Chrisinmd (Oct 31, 2018)

jobo said:


> Yes , but the context of the post was how good can yiu be at self defence in the short term, not how good at boxing matches can you be if you put a couple of decades into it.
> 
> From a self defence point of view, being proficient at throwing a couple of punches is all your likely to need, unless the guy grabs you, in wwhich case a couple of throws and maybe a few kicks will come in handy. And boxing falls a bit short on those, but the better you are at boxing the less that matters, but that of course takes a lit more time to develop,
> 
> But my pointt remains , 6 months into any ma, you should be in a position to robustly defend yourself against most people, even if yiyr unlikely to ever reach the regional finals



Thanks for your response. You are correct my interest in boxing is self defense and learning to throw and take punches etc.  Not trying to start a 20 year career in the boxing ring. My initial reason for choosing boxing was I thought it would be a fairly simple sport to learn in a short time period.  It appears from everyones comments this is not the case.  Ill go try some free classes of my various options and see what I like


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 1, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> My only concern with Muy Thai for a 41 year old novice is, how much, and how often do you want to get hit?  I thought about this issue when I came back to MA at age 53, and at least for now, I decided that the modest about of contact we practice in TKD was enough for me.



Some hitting and contact is fine.  Although I don't want to constantly get the crap beat out of me either.  One other issue I forgot to mention health wise is I have some back pain issues.  So any martial art that requires me to pick up and throw 300 pound dudes may be out of the question.  Thoughts?


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 1, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Some hitting and contact is fine.  Although I don't want to constantly get the crap beat out of me either.  One other issue I forgot to mention health wise is I have some back pain issues.  So any martial art that requires me to pick up and throw 300 pound dudes may be out of the question.  Thoughts?


I don't think anyone that signs up for a MA wants to be punching bag but if you do not get pushed to your limit by  sometimes getting the crap kicked out of you )), you will not be forced to reassess your training and improve your deficiencies. 

The only caveat I have is health issues.   I'm not sure about you but when I started training I was considered a 'bigger' guy (bigger gut anyways) so I had to deal with some debilitating back issues from time to time.  The longer I trained the better shape I got into but I still had back issues.  It was when I was going to an osteopath and they basically said they can keep putting Humpty Dumpty back together again but if I really wanted to fix the problem, I would work more on my core.  They were 100% correct and I have been back issue free for the last 3 years (knock on wood).  

IMHO, you need to build up slowly and over time.   You may not pick up the 300 pound dude on the first day but if that is your goal and you put in a training plan to support that, why would it not be possible all things created equally ?


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Here are the  2 schools I am looking at
> 
> IFC MMA – Mixed Martial Arts and Fitness In Gaithersburg, MD
> 
> Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Kung Fu School | Montgomery County, Maryland




IFC is Jeff Gordon's school and it's a good school.

That WC school doesn't look like it's going to get you into fighting shape nor skills any time soon. He even spelled it Ving Tsun, so expect to learn a lot about the Chinese culture from a White guy


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> And if you punch properly, the chances of breaking your fist/wrist is a lot lower than people seem to think.



Yeah but who can punch so properly all the time?  You can't ever make mistakes, especially in a fight or hard sparring that's going to be at full power, throwing of hands? Plus, you can cut your hand on their teeth, risking "fight bite" which can lead to serious infections or even amputation.

Safety gear are meant to protect those of us who ain't perfect.


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

kempodisciple said:


> For the second, headgear doesn't protect you all that much; IIRC, headgear can actually hurt you more than help.



There's no conclusive answer to this. I stopped sparring with headgear because I believed that I get hit more with them on, but I still don't know for sure.


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

Martial D said:


> I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume you don't do a lot of hard sparring. The difference between getting hit with a 16 oz glove and a bare fist aren't even the same universe.



Yea, a medium jab, landing flushed to the nose with MMA 4oz gloves can feel like your nose just broke and tears starts flowing out of your eyes.


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## FriedRice (Nov 1, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Some hitting and contact is fine.  Although I don't want to constantly get the crap beat out of me either.  One other issue I forgot to mention health wise is I have some back pain issues.  So any martial art that requires me to pick up and throw 300 pound dudes may be out of the question.  Thoughts?



Jeff Gordon's school ain't going to throw you into the shark tank, unless you wanted to spar or go into their fighter's class. You'll be doing lots of cardio + hitting pads for months, learning. Maybe light contact with the pads hitting you back to work on your defense. The only pain you should experience is that of holding the pads, that you'll get used to. There should be a separate "sparring class". Most people who train, don't go to this class, which is normal.

If you have back problems, then you def. don't want to do Jitsu. It's going to jack up your back. You need to strengthen your core decently before getting into it.


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## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Here are the  2 schools I am looking at
> 
> IFC MMA – Mixed Martial Arts and Fitness In Gaithersburg, MD
> 
> Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Kung Fu School | Montgomery County, Maryland



From the Ving Tsun school:



> I have observed that, because Ving Tsun is concept-based, it is very tempting to add new drills and training methods that seem in line with Ving Tsun concepts; however, doing so is just a distraction and waters down the essence of Ving Tsun. * With the huge success of the MMA scene, many schools have taken to adding or mixing other martial arts with their Ving Tsun program.  I haven’t come across any examples where this mixing has created a stronger version of Ving Tsun; in fact most students who train these mixed versions usually lose focus on core Ving Tsun attributes, like a deep horse stance that builds Ving Tsun’s solid structure or strong control of the centerline.*



Essentially the childish belief that cross training pollutes the "pure MA" and makes it weaker.

That's a huge red flag IMO.

That MMA gym looks awesome though.


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## Hanzou (Nov 1, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Yeah but who can punch so properly all the time?  You can't ever make mistakes, especially in a fight or hard sparring that's going to be at full power, throwing of hands? Plus, you can cut your hand on their teeth, risking "fight bite" which can lead to serious infections or even amputation.
> 
> Safety gear are meant to protect those of us who ain't perfect.



A buddy of mine used to carry gloves in his pocket in case he had to punch someone in a fight.

Fun times!


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## dvcochran (Nov 1, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> It is easy to see if your school has a fitness requirement for its instructors, and especially its students.  And if a large percentage of the intermediate or advanced students are out of shape, it is at least something to consider.
> 
> 2nd generation instructors are getting increasingly rare.  My old Tang Soo Do teacher must be in his late 70s now.  I haven't seen him in over 30 years, but I imagine he isn't as fit as he was back when he taught me.  (and for that matter, neither am I) That said, those who are fortunate enough to train with him probably don't care that he is likely 20% or even 30%less athletic than he was 30 or 40 years ago.



The fitness element should be a given for any quality program. It should come to everyone over time. As a comparator, do you argue that a 70 year old BB of higher rank should be more fit than a new white belt? The argument is quickly skewed. The white belt may be a marathon runner so in that vein they are much more fit. The breadth of knowledge of the older BB, and a typical class curriculum, should knock the white belt for a loop in the course of regular class. Fitness should be homogenous with the teachings of any quality program. Does the typical BB become less "fit" over time, yes. Do the added tools and knowledge they should have greatly offset this loss, without a doubt.


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## marques (Nov 1, 2018)

mrt2 said:


> My only concern with Muy Thai for a 41 year old novice is, how much, and how often do you want to get hit?  I thought about this issue when I came back to MA at age 53, and at least for now, I decided that the modest about of contact we practice in TKD was enough for me.


Some people are fine with that. Most of the training will be hitting pads. But, that is a good point, anyway.


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 1, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> From the Ving Tsun school:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks.  Look like I will scratch the Kung Fu school from my list


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## Hanzou (Nov 2, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Thanks.  Look like I will scratch the Kung Fu school from my list



That Ving Tsun group looked like a group of yoga enthusiasts. Nothing wrong with that, and I'm sure they're a fine bunch of people. However, if your goal is to actually learn how to fight and protect yourself, those aren't the type of people you want to learn from.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 2, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Here are the  2 schools I am looking at
> 
> IFC MMA – Mixed Martial Arts and Fitness In Gaithersburg, MD
> 
> Ving Tsun (Wing Chun) Kung Fu School | Montgomery County, Maryland


IFC looks like a solid school. They have 4 of the arts you were interested in so you can check them all out and see which clicks with you. They also offer a couple of free intro classes so you can get a feel for the instruction. 

The Ving Tsun school might or might not be any good, but they do offer a free intro class. It couldn’t hurt to give it a try and see what you think.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 2, 2018)

I did some googling and it looks like you have plenty of good options in Gaithersburg if the first two schools don’t pan out for you. Evolve and Yamasaki Academy look to be worth checking out.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 2, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Some hitting and contact is fine.  Although I don't want to constantly get the crap beat out of me either.  One other issue I forgot to mention health wise is I have some back pain issues.  So any martial art that requires me to pick up and throw 300 pound dudes may be out of the question.  Thoughts?



I don't know what your back issues are so take this with a grain of salt.  But in my experience, most throws don't require you to pick someone up to throw them; its more about leverage.  I've been sitting here trying to think of any while I was typing.  The closest I can think of is a step behind the back and a short stick to the front of the neck to a throw over the shoulder.  Even then there is more leverage used bending the knees and hip to hip contact.  But that is an advanced technique anyway.  

Note some of the answers about fitness, especially post #47.  Those things may not work for you, but they may be worth a try.


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## FriedRice (Nov 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> I don't know what your back issues are so take this with a grain of salt.  But in my experience, most throws don't require you to pick someone up to throw them; its more about leverage.  I've been sitting here trying to think of any while I was typing.  The closest I can think of is a step behind the back and a short stick to the front of the neck to a throw over the shoulder.  Even then there is more leverage used bending the knees and hip to hip contact.  But that is an advanced technique anyway.
> 
> Note some of the answers about fitness, especially post #47.  Those things may not work for you, but they may be worth a try.



If he has back problems, it's still going to hurt his back....esp. when he's new to it and don't know how to leverage throws very well = he's going to strain and use power much more.

There's usually no throwing in beginner's BJJ, but it's still going to hurt his back, esp. the lower back.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 2, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Some hitting and contact is fine.  Although I don't want to constantly get the crap beat out of me either.  One other issue I forgot to mention health wise is I have some back pain issues.  So any martial art that requires me to pick up and throw 300 pound dudes may be out of the question.  Thoughts?


Ive got back issues, and i can throw people just fine. Youre not using all your strength to do the throw, so its not as bad as it sounds. Just make sure you get the positioning right om any shoulder or hip throws.


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> If he has back problems, it's still going to hurt his back....esp. when he's new to it and don't know how to leverage throws very well = he's going to strain and use power much more.
> 
> There's usually no throwing in beginner's BJJ, but it's still going to hurt his back, esp. the lower back.



Shame on BJJ.   

You are right of course, up to a point, and very much dependent on what his issues are.  That's why I told him to take my comments with a grain of salt.  Who knows?  He may not be able to take any MA until he takes care of his back problems.   Or his problems may respond very well to the right type of stretching and exercise most MA require.

A very good course of action for him would be to discuss any physical injuries/problems he has with the school teacher, and follow the teacher's advice on how to overcome them, if they can be overcome.


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## FriedRice (Nov 2, 2018)

oftheherd1 said:


> Shame on BJJ.
> 
> You are right of course, up to a point, and very much dependent on what his issues are.  That's why I told him to take my comments with a grain of salt.  Who knows?  He may not be able to take any MA until he takes care of his back problems.   Or his problems may respond very well to the right type of stretching and exercise most MA require.
> 
> A very good course of action for him would be to discuss any physical injuries/problems he has with the school teacher, and follow the teacher's advice on how to overcome them, if they can be overcome.



What's going to happen though, is most people will get excited and their adrenaline takes over common sense, esp. in the beginning. They will over exert themselves. Good news though, there's rarely any throwing in BJJ unless it's Judo Night, which most BJJ gyms don't even have.

A lot of my injuries were from the 1st year. No matter how sucky you are, you still want to be the hardest hitter of the sucky crowd = bad techniques w/full power = more injuries. In BJJ, it's going to usually happen during sparring....when 2 white belts meet.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 2, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> What's going to happen though, is most people will get excited and their adrenaline takes over common sense, esp. in the beginning. They will over exert themselves. Good news though, there's rarely any throwing in BJJ unless it's Judo Night, which most BJJ gyms don't even have.
> 
> A lot of my injuries were from the 1st year. No matter how sucky you are, you still want to be the hardest hitter of the sucky crowd = bad techniques w/full power = more injuries. In BJJ, it's going to usually happen during sparring....when 2 white belts meet.


The most dangerous belts at the dojo are white belts.  They don't know enough to know that what they are doing is most likely wrong and can cause their sparring partner a great deal of pain or injury.


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## Buka (Nov 2, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> The most dangerous belts at the dojo are white belts.  They don't know enough to know that what they are doing is most likely wrong and can cause their sparring partner a great deal of pain or injury.



This. ^


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## oftheherd1 (Nov 3, 2018)

When I studied TKD under Jhoon Goo Rhee, he would not allow an individual to spar until they were 9th gup.  And only then when he thought you were ready for it.  We got the usual bruises but I can't remember anybody being injured.


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## Robert Agar-Hutton (Nov 3, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> As others have said, visit each school of interest and choose the one that's right for YOU.
> 
> However, if there's no hard sparring, walk out the door.



I totally agree with Hanzou on the go to each school point - have a trial lesson or two and see what you enjoy. (I'm assuming that all are equally affordable).

I don't agree with the 'hard sparring' comment - as a beginner you should not be doing anything more than light sparring (and some schools of martial arts don't let people spar until they have a reasonable skill set) - sparring is overrated if what you want is self defence - self defence is NEVER a 'fight' - that's a different thing - which if you want to do, that's fine but it's different.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 3, 2018)

Robert Agar-Hutton said:


> I don't agree with the 'hard sparring' comment - as a beginner you should not be doing anything more than light sparring (and some schools of martial arts don't let people spar until they have a reasonable skill set) - sparring is overrated if what you want is self defence - self defence is NEVER a 'fight' - that's a different thing - which if you want to do, that's fine but it's different.


I understand this is your opinion.  I’m from a Kyokushin background so will have to disagree about sparring being overrated.  That is simply not my experience in fact I believe it helps students find the truth in their training.  How can you know if anything you are learning will actually work I’d you do not spar with a live non compliant opponent?


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## Robert Agar-Hutton (Nov 3, 2018)

Yokazuna514 said:


> How can you know if anything you are learning will actually work I’d you do not spar with a live non compliant opponent?



I think sparring is great for learning if what you do works against someone who is doing the same thing - but self defence should not be like that - the aim in self defence is to survive, not to 'spar' - sparring also has rules and etiquette both of which can be problematic.

BTW - I enjoy sparring, I just think it is a sport.


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Jeff Gordon's school ain't going to throw you into the shark tank, unless you wanted to spar or go into their fighter's class. You'll be doing lots of cardio + hitting pads for months, learning. Maybe light contact with the pads hitting you back to work on your defense. The only pain you should experience is that of holding the pads, that you'll get used to. There should be a separate "sparring class". Most people who train, don't go to this class, which is normal.
> 
> If you have back problems, then you def. don't want to do Jitsu. It's going to jack up your back. You need to strengthen your core decently before getting into it.


Went to my first free trial boxing class at Jeff Gordon school today.  They totally kicked my *** with the cardio to begin the class.  10 minutes of rope jumping followed by alternating jumping jacks, pushups and some jumping exercise I cant remember the name of right now.  Then we worked on how to move out feet in the ring and then throwing punches with our partner holding the pad.  Problem was I was so exhausted after the cardio I could barely make it through the boxing drill.  I think I sweated out a bucket of sweat!  Hell of a workout.  I was pretty impressed with the school.  Lots of people there and good coaches and facility


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## FriedRice (Nov 3, 2018)

Robert Agar-Hutton said:


> I think sparring is great for learning if what you do works against someone who is doing the same thing - but self defence should not be like that - the aim in self defence is to survive, not to 'spar' - sparring also has rules and etiquette both of which can be problematic.
> 
> BTW - I enjoy sparring, I just think it is a sport.




Answer = spar at full power for knockouts if you think it's inadequate.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 3, 2018)

Robert Agar-Hutton said:


> I think sparring is great for learning if what you do works against someone who is doing the same thing - but self defence should not be like that - the aim in self defence is to survive, not to 'spar' - sparring also has rules and etiquette both of which can be problematic.
> 
> BTW - I enjoy sparring, I just think it is a sport.


Sparring in a self defence context is very hard to do.  SD techniques are generally meant to incapacitate, maim or kill your opponent.  Less lethal techniques are also meant to injure and escape so sparring is not typically a focus of SD training unless a sport element is introduced and the techniques taught are meant to stay engaged or to safely incapacitate your partner.  I think that would be useful to test some SD techniques but there would have to be a give and take In the curriculum as to what can safely be practiced with sparring.


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## Yokozuna514 (Nov 3, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Answer = spar at full power for knockouts if you think it's inadequate.


Dude, your straight forward responses are hilarious at times.  This is definitely one of them .


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## FriedRice (Nov 3, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Went to my first free trial boxing class at Jeff Gordon school today.  They totally kicked my *** with the cardio to begin the class.  10 minutes of rope jumping followed by alternating jumping jacks, pushups and some jumping exercise I cant remember the name of right now.  Then we worked on how to move out feet in the ring and then throwing punches with our partner holding the pad.  Problem was I was so exhausted after the cardio I could barely make it through the boxing drill.  I think I sweated out a bucket of sweat!  Hell of a workout.  I was pretty impressed with the school.  Lots of people there and good coaches and facility



Glad to hear that. As an older guy, you need to take certain precautions, otherwise you'll quit or get injured, then quit. Not many older people can handle it. I've seen many come and go, quickly, in the past 10+ years at a gym bigger than IFC. These classes are mostly populated by men in their 20's for a reason. I'm older than you and when I first started, I had to take breaks during the warmup and girls would run by smirking. even the warmup is a COMPETITION. It took a few months to get used to the cardio and build up gradually. You should wear a back brace.  Even w/o a back problem, I started having some in the lower back due to my core not being strong enough, and it's very hip intensive. Then get decent gear and safety stuff such as handwraps, ankle brace (those Muay Thai sock like ones).....then drink a protein shake within 10 mins after the class. This should be the minimum if you plan to make it   for at least 1 year. 

That jumping exercise was probably burpees. From standing, jump and spread/stretched into pushup position then spring up as fast as possible to a light vertical jump with hands raised = 1. Goal should be 50 in 2 minutes, 30 sec rest then another 50 in 2 mins.


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## Hanzou (Nov 3, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Went to my first free trial boxing class at Jeff Gordon school today.  They totally kicked my *** with the cardio to begin the class.  10 minutes of rope jumping followed by alternating jumping jacks, pushups and some jumping exercise I cant remember the name of right now.  Then we worked on how to move out feet in the ring and then throwing punches with our partner holding the pad.  Problem was I was so exhausted after the cardio I could barely make it through the boxing drill.  I think I sweated out a bucket of sweat!  Hell of a workout.  I was pretty impressed with the school.  Lots of people there and good coaches and facility



That's some good stuff right there. You can't defend yourself if you're out of shape. Just be careful and don't over exert yourself.


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## Hanzou (Nov 4, 2018)

Robert Agar-Hutton said:


> I think sparring is great for learning if what you do works against someone who is doing the same thing - but self defence should not be like that - the aim in self defence is to survive, not to 'spar' - sparring also has rules and etiquette both of which can be problematic.
> 
> BTW - I enjoy sparring, I just think it is a sport.



No, sparring is great for learning if what you do works period. Additionally, it shapes your personal style and allows you to get comfortable in how you express the art. For example, I have a rather broad frame with powerful legs (due to soccer and football), yet long arms. My strength in Bjj is arm chokes and kimura locks, since I have long arms that can snake around necks and arms easier, and my strong legs can lock people in place. I'm so-so at Triangle Chokes because my knees aren't great and I'm not all that flexible, and it took me awhile to get a good closed guard.

How did I figure that out? Sparring. *Hard *sparring. If I hadn't figured that out in sparring, I'd probably be dead right now, because I wouldn't have had time to figure it out when some crazed guy came at me with a hammer. Fortunately, I had spent extra time on the mat learning the triangle choke, and I started my rolls from guard in order to practice it under the pressure of sparring. So when the time came for me to actually protect my life, my so-so triangle choke saved my ***.


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 4, 2018)

FriedRice said:


> Glad to hear that. As an older guy, you need to take certain precautions, otherwise you'll quit or get injured, then quit. Not many older people can handle it. I've seen many come and go, quickly, in the past 10+ years at a gym bigger than IFC. These classes are mostly populated by men in their 20's for a reason. I'm older than you and when I first started, I had to take breaks during the warmup and girls would run by smirking. even the warmup is a COMPETITION. It took a few months to get used to the cardio and build up gradually. You should wear a back brace.  Even w/o a back problem, I started having some in the lower back due to my core not being strong enough, and it's very hip intensive. Then get decent gear and safety stuff such as handwraps, ankle brace (those Muay Thai sock like ones).....then drink a protein shake within 10 mins after the class. This should be the minimum if you plan to make it   for at least 1 year.
> 
> That jumping exercise was probably burpees. From standing, jump and spread/stretched into pushup position then spring up as fast as possible to a light vertical jump with hands raised = 1. Goal should be 50 in 2 minutes, 30 sec rest then another 50 in 2 mins.


You are correct Burpees is what they were called.


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## Chrisinmd (Nov 6, 2018)

Hanzou said:


> A buddy of mine used to carry gloves in his pocket in case he had to punch someone in a fight.
> 
> Fun times!


Did he carry 2 sets of boxing gloves?  One for him and one for who he wants to fight?  The problem I would see with this is getting the other person to agree to a boxing match.  Why would I want to agree to your style of fighting?  Maybe im a wrestler or some other fighting style instead.


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## Tony Dismukes (Nov 6, 2018)

Chrisinmd said:


> Did he carry 2 sets of boxing gloves?  One for him and one for who he wants to fight?  The problem I would see with this is getting the other person to agree to a boxing match.  Why would I want to agree to your style of fighting?  Maybe im a wrestler or some other fighting style instead.


I suspect those weren't boxing gloves. Just regular gloves so he could punch harder without hurting his hands.


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## KenpoMaster805 (Nov 17, 2018)

Choose karate its very effective


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## dda21 (Feb 12, 2019)

mrt2 said:


> Hi! my name is Chris and I decided to do martial arts but I need help figuring out which one I should do. Please tell me which you do and suggest one I should do, thanks!
> 
> *I do ITF style Tae Kwon Do.  My school is mostly traditional, but we do spar with headgear, shin and instep guards, and chest protectors, so there is some contact.*
> 
> ...


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## dda21 (Feb 12, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> As others have noted, your build is irrelevant to your choice. Any of the arts you mention will work just fine for someone of your size, age, and condition.
> 
> The general answer to these "which art should I choose" posts is always the same. Visit as many of the available schools as you can. Pay attention to the general atmosphere, teaching style, schedule, location, and costs. You might find the best art in the world, but if the teacher doesn't click with you or you don't enjoy the atmosphere or you can't afford the tuition or the schedule or location are too inconvenient then you won't end up training consistently.
> 
> ...





This is a great Response!!!


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## mrt2 (Feb 12, 2019)

What I know about forms compared to what you know about forms?  Don't know, since anybody can claim anything on the internet.  I will not pass judgment on your knowledge, or lack of knowledge of forms, and application to fighting.  I know about application, but I also know that a lot of this gets lost in the modern practice of forms.  And that for many, they should expect to practice forms for quite some time before they learn the application.  


Don't mislead impressionable newbies about forms.  It is a traditional part of martial arts, and a way to pass down the practice.  That said, there are martial arts that focus purely on combat from the get go and dispense entirely with forms, or kata.


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