# Improving TKD's Image



## Independent_TKD (Jul 28, 2007)

I've practice TKD for a long time and, like many of you, have heard quite a lot of bashing. For me most of the criticism revolves around the many poor practices at TKD schools (McDojangs).

As a practicioner of TKD, how would you propose improving the overall image of TKD (NOT organizations like the ITF, WTF, etc) as an effective martial art?


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## WMKS Shogun (Jul 28, 2007)

Hmmmmm...interesting question. Obviously it is not going to happen overnight, and there is no way to win over EVERYONE. I am thinking that we need to stop showcasing 6 year old black belts (for that matter, say something to anyone you know who has a school that HAS a six year old black belt). (We need to) Stop claiming that TKD is several thousand years old. It is about 50, with some skills that may date back thousands of years. Stop trying to tie TKD to Taekyon, Hwarang, etc. It is okay that we can state they have influenced the 'flavor' of TKD, but seriously, drop that line of bull. 
If TKD wants to be taken seriously (as a martial art) we need to show its combat effectiveness (and in some schools, learn combat effectiveness). If TKD wants to be taken seriously as a sport, we need some sort of pro-league,  because lets face it, TV time once every 4 years at the olympics is pretty pathetic. Heck, poker is not even a sport and it is on multiple times a week! 
Just a few thoughts. If I come up with more or a better plan, I will share more, if not, well, there you have it!


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## bluemtn (Jul 28, 2007)

I agree with David-  stop showcasing 6yr old black belts, stop pushing out black belts, period (IMHO)-  sure, they increase schools popularity for a time, but they really aren't for those that are truly in MA's for more than just the rank.  Try showing more of what TKD has to offer in a class, not just sparring competitions-  especially as far as the Olympics goes.  Stop worrying so much about trying to prove the validity of the art by saying it's been around for 1,000 years.  Every art had to have it's start!


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## Sukerkin (Jul 28, 2007)

I'm not a student of the Korean arts but I'm highly pleased to read the two posts above.  Well spoken, those people :tup:.

I think if the issues you highlight are addressed, a lot of the 'problems' will go away in time.


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## Sapper6 (Jul 28, 2007)

WMKS Shogun said:


> Hmmmmm...interesting question. Obviously it is not going to happen overnight, and there is no way to win over EVERYONE. I am thinking that we need to stop showcasing 6 year old black belts (for that matter, say something to anyone you know who has a school that HAS a six year old black belt). (We need to) Stop claiming that TKD is several thousand years old. It is about 50, with some skills that may date back thousands of years. Stop trying to tie TKD to Taekyon, Hwarang, etc. It is okay that we can state they have influenced the 'flavor' of TKD, but seriously, drop that line of bull.
> If TKD wants to be taken seriously (as a martial art) we need to show its combat effectiveness (and in some schools, learn combat effectiveness). *If TKD wants to be taken seriously as a sport, we need some sort of pro-league, because lets face it, TV time once every 4 years at the olympics is pretty pathetic. Heck, poker is not even a sport and it is on multiple times a week! *
> Just a few thoughts. If I come up with more or a better plan, I will share more, if not, well, there you have it!


 
you have that.  it's called the World Combat League and it's totally TKD.


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## WMKS Shogun (Jul 28, 2007)

I have heard of it, but it still has not really picked up from what I have heard.


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## terryl965 (Jul 28, 2007)

The one thing I would suggest to everybody that is involved in TKD is and this one would be the hardest thing to do is tell the truth period. If we has practitioners of the Art can put a side our ego's and remember that we all have the same goal in mind and that is to preserve and grow the art we could do both. But ego's will always be our own downfall, everybody as to be a GM and had to be the Champion of the world and have to try there damest to prove others to be a fake and talk every other instructor to crap, it is just pathitic to see and hear. Forum bashing and my Instructor was the champion from time period to time period well here is a news flash they all where and so was alot of us on this talk forum.

In closing I just would like to add this please remember to wipe the snot from your nose before down playing us older people.


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 28, 2007)

I don't know if this has changed much over the years but back when I was in TKD  the only "good" schools where TKD or so my instructor told us every night. We where constantly being told how inferior all other systems where and how only those that studied TKD would ever be any good. 
Thigs like the above must stop in TKD and all other systems. We all need to acknowledge that there are good and bad points to all arts.
As for the 6 year old black belts, well, yes little Jonnies mother and father may think he is great but they obviusly have no knowledge of what other systems require of Black Belt candidates. I have no problem with young students learning but I certianly can not belive in a 18 year old 5th degree


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## Kacey (Jul 28, 2007)

TKD is the commercialized art of the decade - perhaps of the last 2 or 3 decades.  That type of commercialization - the type that is characterized by the McDojo label - is the basis of the poor image that TKD has in many eyes.

In decades past, other arts suffered through this - a movie will come out featuring a particular art, and suddenly, that art will become popular.  Schools teaching that art (at least, what they _say_ is that art) will open all over the place - very commercialized, very well advertised - and becoming very rapidly popular.  Over time, either the quality of instruction improves, or the best students go elsewhere - taking the reputation of the supposed art with them.  People who are serious about learning a martial art choose other arts, and the popularized versions fall by the wayside... leaving those who practice the original art to continue to teach the non-popularized, purer version.

In the past, however, styles/schools were neither so well spread nor so well publicized.  TKD can benefit from this widespread publicity only if those who practice the non-publicized version make the differences between the dojang and the McDojo versions known - along with the reasons to avoid the fast track of the McDojo.  Promoting the differences on bulletin boards such as this is a start - but it's going to take more.  Stopping the promotion of precocious children to inappropriate ranks is certainly part of it - that's as much cultural, in the US at least, as it is anything else; look at all the "youngest person to ___________" who have appeared in the last 15 or 20 years.  Publicizing the other side - the problems of extremely young BBs, the reasons to not have children at such ranks - is going to be a hard row to hoe, but it is definitely a place to start.


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## stoneheart (Jul 28, 2007)

Hmm, this probably depends on what your definition of TKD is and I don't really want to delve back into that mess on this thread...  So let's be simple.  Like some of you, I prefer the 'TKD' taught when the kwan system was alive and well before TKD had become standardized.  

Think of what the Moo Duk Kwan, Chung Do Kwan, Chang Moo Kwan, etc. taught their students before they all joined under the tae kwon do umbrella.  Did they teach some weapons work?  Yes.  Did they teach some of what is now called 'hapkido'?  Yes.  Did they teach body conditioning in order for your feet and hands to be more damaging?  Yes.

That's some good stuff right there.  Trained hard, it's as effective as any other system out there.   And thoughtful martial artists know this.   

But the thread is about how to improve TKD's image among the general public and I think that horse has already left the barn.   It's sad but true.  Short of a time machine, I can only suggest a new name that could be remarketed as the real deal TKD.

Here's a couple of tongue-in-cheek (I can't decide if I'm serious or not) replacement names:

Combat TKD (wow, this one will chap everyone's hide)
Israeli TKD (get a Mossad Grandmaster and you're set)


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## Independent_TKD (Jul 29, 2007)

> Short of a time machine, I can only suggest a new name that could be remarketed as the real deal TKD.


 
I know this was just joking, but I think you really have a point about a new name. I recently posted a related topic on the Self-Defense forum here. Let's say TKDers who practice the type of style you described in your post, what legitimate name changes chould be put out there?

To clearly break away from the low quality, McDojangs, there has to be some way to differentiate styles. I am tired of being lumped in with those places everytime I tell someone I practice TKD.

Is it time for a new name?


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## tshadowchaser (Jul 29, 2007)

Many TKD schools have been looked upon as Black Belt factories and paper mills, in the past.  Maybe just changing the requirments for black belt to a higher standerd in many schools would help.


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## kidswarrior (Jul 29, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> The one thing I would suggest to everybody that is involved in TKD is and this one would be the hardest thing to do is tell the truth period. If we has practitioners of the Art can put a side our ego's and remember that we all have the same goal in mind and that is to preserve and grow the art we could do both. But ego's will always be our own downfall


The voice of wisdom, if I've ever had the good fortune to recognize it. :asian:



> I just would like to add this please remember to wipe the snot from your nose before down playing us older people.


:lfao: Oh, man, this is worth the price of the Gold Key membership for this whole month!


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## Tez3 (Jul 29, 2007)

I'm not sure the general public actually know what TKD is as opposed to karate even judo! Ive been doing karate for years then changed to TSD as well as MMA and I still have people asking me how the Kung Fu is going! another friend insisted on calling it judo for years. If it's not Kung Fu it's obviously kick boxing! 
That said, this ignorance can work in your favour if you want to show TKD as you think it should be shown.


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## Sapper6 (Jul 29, 2007)

tshadowchaser said:


> Many TKD schools have been looked upon as Black Belt factories and paper mills, in the past. Maybe just changing the requirments for black belt to a higher standerd in many schools would help.


 
i agree somewhat.  that's just it.  you cannot fault TKD for having child black belts.  it's the requirements of the certain schools within the system that is at fault, however, that doesn't apply to all TKD schools.  i am sure there are some out there that do not fall into that category.  they are just fewer in numbers.  there is a standard to everything.  some are lower than others, especially with the all mighty dollar at stake.


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## foot2face (Jul 29, 2007)

For as long as I can remember practitioners of various MA styles have always spoken negatively about different systems.  It's the "my way is the only way, everything else is garbage" syndrome.  The only thing I've ever seen end this, was wining a fight. It's a sad commentary but the quickest way to silence all the naysayers and critics is to beat them up. You'll be surprised how quickly someone shuts their yap when you kick it.  Now, I'm not advocating mindless brawling, but something needs to happen.  People who can *fight* with TKD have to prove it and gain the respect TKD deserves as an effective SD and fighting system.


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## Telos (Jul 29, 2007)

I think the image largely depends on the students themselves. And their purpose for being there. That alone pretty much dictates teh attitude and word they will bring to the art.


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## DArnold (Jul 30, 2007)

Independent_TKD said:


> I've practice TKD for a long time and, like many of you, have heard quite a lot of bashing. For me most of the criticism revolves around the many poor practices at TKD schools (McDojangs).
> 
> As a practicioner of TKD, how would you propose improving the overall image of TKD (NOT organizations like the ITF, WTF, etc) as an effective martial art?


 
I don't know.

As to what I do...

To answer the question is to agree to the premis of the question.
I do not agree with the premis therefore no answer.

Quite simple really


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## Miles (Jul 31, 2007)

Independent_TKD said:


> I've practice TKD for a long time and, like many of you, have heard quite a lot of bashing. For me most of the criticism revolves around the many poor practices at TKD schools (McDojangs).
> 
> As a practicioner of TKD, how would you propose improving the overall image of TKD (NOT organizations like the ITF, WTF, etc) as an effective martial art?


 
As an instructor, I am cognizant that my students are a reflection of myself so I only promote those students who are competent. 

I am a reflection of my instructor and my art so I must project a proper image to prospective students as well as other martial artists.

Miles


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## IcemanSK (Jul 31, 2007)

Miles said:


> As an instructor, I am cognizant that my students are a reflection of myself so I only promote those students who are competent.
> 
> I am a reflection of my instructor and my art so I must project a proper image to prospective students as well as other martial artists.
> 
> Miles


 
I think what Miles says here is key. The best thing we can do (perhaps the only thing we can do) is to promote only competent students.


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## terryl965 (Jul 31, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> I think what Miles says here is key. The best thing we can do (perhaps the only thing we can do) is to promote only competent students.


 
Sure so 100 instructor does this and another 10,000 don't we just do not have enough great instructors out there to make this happen. We must ban together and from a line of defense, wait I was thinking military for a moment sorry. Just keep doing what we do and hope for the best.


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## IcemanSK (Jul 31, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> Sure so 100 instructor does this and another 10,000 don't we just do not have enough great instructors out there to make this happen. We must ban together and from a line of defense, wait I was thinking military for a moment sorry. Just keep doing what we do and hope for the best.


 
There's a story about a boy on the beach where 1000's of star fish washed up. They were dying! The boy would pick up one at a time & throw them back. A man came by & said, "Son, there are just too many of them for you to make a difference!" The boy smiled as he tossed another one back into the ocean & said, "I made a difference to that one." 

The way I look at it, I have the chance to make a difference in the lives of these kids in my class. (Not just as a TKD student, but in their lives). I don't care that 1 of my kids was given a rushed BB at 8 years old. He's my student, now. In the dojang, he's less concerned with the belt around his waist than he was when he came. He's more focused on getting the techniques right. Outside the dojang, he's a polite young man. I'll take being one of the 100, Terry. I'm bettin' you will, too.


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## terryl965 (Jul 31, 2007)

IcemanSK said:


> There's a story about a boy on the beach where 1000's of star fish washed up. They were dying! The boy would pick up one at a time & throw them back. A man came by & said, "Son, there are just too many of them for you to make a difference!" The boy smiled as he tossed another one back into the ocean & said, "I made a difference to that one."
> 
> The way I look at it, I have the chance to make a difference in the lives of these kids in my class. (Not just as a TKD student, but in their lives). I don't care that 1 of my kids was given a rushed BB at 8 years old. He's my student, now. In the dojang, he's less concerned with the belt around his waist than he was when he came. He's more focused on getting the techniques right. Outside the dojang, he's a polite young man. I'll take being one of the 100, Terry. I'm bettin' you will, too.


 

Excellent post Iceman


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## howard (Jul 31, 2007)

DArnold said:


> To answer the question is to agree to the premis of the question.
> I do not agree with the premis therefore no answer.


What?  It is not.

A premise is simply the basis for an argument.  If you disagree with the premise, why don't you argue your position?

As for the original question: IMO one of the biggest issues is Olympic TKD.  Just my subjective opinion, of course, but every time I see it, I shake my head and cringe.  It looks utterly foreign to the way people used to spar in the old "kwans" (e.g., Ji Do Kwan) that were around before TKD came into existence.

What ever happened to keeping your hands up?  What ever happened to the reverse punch?


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## DArnold (Jul 31, 2007)

howard said:


> What? It is not.
> 
> A premise is simply the basis for an argument. If you disagree with the premise, why don't you argue your position?
> 
> ...


 
Look at your original posting... as an effective martial art.
It already is?
Who do you wish to bolster it against, the nay sayers?
How many people in the old kwans have you seen spar?
To what end would this banter be for?
Do you want someone to change your mind?
I would suggest you go work out with some of these that you think are degrading your art.


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## howard (Jul 31, 2007)

DArnold said:


> Who do you wish to bolster it against, the nay sayers?


Sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about here.



DArnold said:


> How many people in the old kwans have you seen spar?


Quite a few.  Are you familiar with Master S. Henry Cho in New York?  I've sparred with people in his Ji Do Kwan dojang.  And with others from the "kwan" days.

How many have you seen spar?



DArnold said:


> To what end would this banter be for?


Once again, I have no idea what your point is.



DArnold said:


> Do you want someone to change your mind?


Assuming you're referring to the premise of the original poster, no... I think Olympic TKD is pretty far from an effective martial art.  Do you think Olympic TKD represents an effective martial art? As in a true fighting art?



DArnold said:


> ] I would suggest you go work out with some of these that you think are degrading your art.


Man, what are you on about?  Nobody's degrading my art... I don't train in TKD.  Never have.

I would suggest you read people's posts a bit more carefully.


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## keri-waza (Jul 31, 2007)

I think all of the threads hit the nail on the head. I was in TKD for around 12 years and have since switched to Isshinryu. The org. i was in turned into a joke . Promoting people every two months whether they deserved it or not. Lots of kids running around with high dan ranks. It was all about money . There are probably 20 TKD schools around the knoxville area where i train and teach. None of them has any talent. We have respectfully mind you invited them to the dojo to cowork out and have not had one acceptance.


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## cali_tkdbruin (Aug 9, 2007)

See, that's the thing, here in the States, like in many other places, a large number of TKD dojangs are commercial enterprises. These dojangs make a good portion of their money by charging testing fees. So, if they can keep promoting students on a regular schedule, and keep collecting those testing fees, then it makes sense to keep doing it that way because it keeps the school out of the red. 

The unfortunate part is that unprepared or undeserving students are easily promoted thus furthering the impression in the MA world that Taekwondo is a weak art full of Mc Dojangs. I've seen it, and heard it from practitioners of other arts, and to a certain degree I agree with them because I've trained with teenage and adult TKD blackbelts who aren't worth a crap. They couldn't even hold a well trained, devoted and dedicated Taekwondoist's jock strap... :tantrum:


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## cali_tkdbruin (Aug 9, 2007)

BTW, I'm no Chuck Norris or a Steven Lopez worthy black belt. But I do train on a regular basis, and whenever I do go into the dojang I train my *** off and I hit it all out, which is what I want from my training partners. I know I'm no way as good as those two practitioners I mentioned, but I do make a strong effort and I'm always trying to make my TKD skills and techniques better. One thing I can say is that I never go at my TKD training half-assed, just ask the people I train with.


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## Bumblebee (Aug 9, 2007)

One thing we can do is keep our guard up during sparring.  I've seen it everywhere and I've heard it everywhere that most Taekwondo practitioners drop their guard.  Steven Lopez who won like what?  Four Taekwondo World Championships, even he's guilty of this.  I mean I don't see a real reason why you'd want to drop your guard.  Some people say that it's easier to counter when you drop your guard, but then you drop your guard and what if your opponent is faster than you are and smacks you across the face with a left step-forward roundhouse kick/fast kick/Baranbay Duiro Chagi(sp?).


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## Drunken_Boxer (Aug 19, 2007)

tkdgirl said:


> I agree with David-  stop showcasing 6yr old black belts, stop pushing out black belts, period (IMHO)-  sure, they increase schools popularity for a time, but they really aren't for those that are truly in MA's for more than just the rank.  Try showing more of what TKD has to offer in a class, not just sparring competitions-  especially as far as the Olympics goes.  Stop worrying so much about trying to prove the validity of the art by saying it's been around for 1,000 years.  Every art had to have it's start!




Damn tkd girl, i agree with you.Real talk!!


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 19, 2007)

> Originally Posted by tkdgirl
> I agree with David- stop showcasing 6yr old black belts, stop pushing out black belts, period (IMHO)- sure, they increase schools popularity for a time, but they really aren't for those that are truly in MA's for more than just the rank. Try showing more of what TKD has to offer in a class, not just sparring competitions- especially as far as the Olympics goes. Stop worrying so much about trying to prove the validity of the art by saying it's been around for 1,000 years. Every art had to have it's start!





Drunken_Boxer said:


> Damn tkd girl, i agree with you.Real talk!!



Its all about standards.  I've been quite lucky in that the most of what I have seen when training around GB hasnt been bad, and in some cases exceptionally good.  IMHO the image of TKD isnt bad over here.  I do see this kind of bad thing becoming more prevalent though, driven largely by the olympic sport aspect.


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## 009abz (Aug 21, 2007)

good question but let me tell you this we might never change tkd's image for their are to many weak tkd fighters out and who are these ppl? their the ones that are doing tkd as only a sport their the ones who are affraid of getting in to fights their the ones who came late traning because they dont wanna run or warm up.

but their are strong tkd fighters to they are who dnt make around at tranning they never run away from a fight also. ill be an example i go to da toughest most violent skool in australia {punchbowl boys} and they all know i do tkd but they dnt get scared of me but they never wanna fight me coz ill never be scared to fight them.

finally ill rap it up u can do any martial art and still be weak even in tkd for its all up to u do u run away when everything gets hard or do u stay and show everyone who u are.


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 21, 2007)

009abz, it would really help if you used capitalization and non-'texting' type. The instant that someone says 'Hey ru lookin' etc, I stop reading and the credibility of the author goes down for me. Aka, 'u' is you, da for the etc.

I'm not even touching on TKD's image, as there are countless threads on countless forums debating for and against the art and the sport aspects of it. I know the artform I do, I know how I do it, and I know how well I do it.

We'll always find 'keyboard warriors' out there who'll say they can kick so-in-so's butt, or their <insert mad butt kicking style here> would own my TKD etc. I laugh and say 'yep, sure would' and go off and do my thing.

As far as people improving the image; I think those fighters out there who acknowledge their TKD training, and are good role models, will help the public perception of the art.


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## Dave Leverich (Aug 21, 2007)

Heh, so much for not even touching on TKD's image. That will teach me to type while waking up .


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 22, 2007)

As has been stated, TKD's image is beyond repair, due to everything that has been mentioned. So what to do?................... My personal opinion is to seek a new discipline name, for those that wish to seperate themselves from the McDojo/DoJang label. How many will avail themselves of this position.............not many if any, for the threat of losing students will surely deter this movement. The vast majority of folks offing to take part in the arts are there for many reasons, but only a very, very small percentage (.5% - a guess) will be there for life. There's not enough of these folks to keep a school doors open, so sports takes center stage and little Mary and Billy can win a shinny medal and Mom and Dad can puff out their chests and say "My Billy is a 5th degree Black Belt and he's just turned 10". :erg:

I'll finish with a statement that I'm sure most if not everyone has heard........... "The journey starts with the first step". It takes courage to take that first step and that includes starting anew within or leaving your old ways for a new beginning.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 23, 2007)

Hi Brad,

I've gotta ask, is that what Taekido is?

I understand where you are coming from, but abandoning the name Taekwondo is abandoning all those who went before us and disrespecting our teachers.  Whilst cutting loose the bad, you are also cutting loose all the great stuff too.  This is what makes us what we are!

I understand standards to be a large part of why GM Kim Bok Man has founded Chun Khun Do.  This however fully acknowledges itself as almost an extension of TKD (as you'd expect from one of the founders!).

I certainly dont think (although I admit I'm not in the US) TKD's image is beyond repair.  I think the efforts of those practioners who continue to exercise integrity will prevail, even if the final achievement is that people realise the barrel has both good, and bad apples.


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## exile (Aug 23, 2007)

My own sense is, worrying about TKD's image is both futile and, if you're really devoted to it, unnecessary. The futility is evident: look at the number of threads on MT, let alone other, let's say more belligerent boards, where someone gets on and starts badmouthing TKD for all the usual reasons, and we all send in these detailed posts about TKD's military record and effective technical repertoire and so on, with full citations of sources, and they spout back a lot of misinformation and narrow understanding based on what they know of sport TKD, and back and forth it goes, until finally you either get a kind of grudging acknowledgement that there might be more to it, or else a stubborn `don't confuse me with facts, I've made up my mind' sort of response, and basically the thread dies. Now that's with _one_ person. When you talk about `image', you're talking about hundreds of thousands or millions of MA practitioners who are little different from the guy on the thread. And it's probably also true that any changes you might make on a worldwide basis that would `improve the image' of TKD would take a decade or more to sink into mass consciousness. So at best, at this point, it's an uphill battle. It took a couple of generations for TKD to reach its current low level of public esteem, and it would probably take at least as long, no matter what you did, to change that situation. (Karate is, so far as I can see, in the same boat with TKD in this respect, so it's not as though we're all alone here).

But the more important point, I think, is in the question, why should anyone _care_ what the public estimate of TKD is? What difference does it make to what you do? This is what I've been thinking for a long time about that question: it's not something you have to ask people about their taste in ice cream, say. If your favorite flavor is burgundy cherry, you couldn't care less that most people prefer vanilla or butter pecan. That's totally, completely irrelevant to what you buy at the store. If you like Baroque music, you couldn't care less that more bubble-gum music CDs are sold in a single day than 18th century music CDs sell in a whole year. And so on: the point is, your taste in anything doesn't require you to _believe_ something about whatever it is in order to feel good about it. The pleaure comes from the taste of the ice cream or the sound of the music; they themselves are all the justification we need. But it's not like that about the MAs we do, at least not if we're worrying about image. So to me, that says that we aren't doing the MAs we do simply for the pleasure of doing themnot if we worry about what people think of them. That anxiety about other people's perception seems to me to say that we may ourselves harbor some doubts about what we're doingin a way we simply do not harbor doubts about our favorite ice cream or musicand we don't like the fact that we're not getting external support, in the form of others' good opinions, that might reassure us that our art is really the effective fighting system we'd _like_ to think it is.

If the real problem of TKD's imageor Karate's, or Gung Fu'sis that its practitioners are too concerned with other people's views because of their own latent doubts, then real remedy is for people to eliminate those doubts by shifting their training to a format which will allow the intrinsic effectiveness of the art to emerge. If we could magically bring the RoK White Tiger commandos from the Vietnam War era into the present with their battlefield combat skills intact, I somehow doubt that they's be particularly worried about how people viewed their fighting system; after all, no other MA has ever been pressure tested under the _real_ `ultimate fighting championship' conditionssurvival on free-fire front line or behind-the-lines battlefields when you're out of ammo or separated from your weaponon the mass scale, over two decades. Those Korean soldiers would probably have been just as happy, in fact, to have their fighting arts dismissed by the enemy; nothing like having the opposition fatally underestimate you, eh? It's not a mistake that either the North Koreans or the Viet Cong made, in fact, but the point is, what the guys in the White Tiger units were likely concerned with, and solely concerned with, was the effectiveness of their training for killing the enemy in empty-hand CQ fighting. If it worked for that, what difference would it make what anyone else _thought?_

My feeling is that we would do better to adopt that attitude ourselves, rather than worry excessively about the media-created image that TKD suffers from. It doesn't really affect our training on an individual level, or our ability to defend ourselves from a violent street attack, does it? If those things are OK, and we _know_ it, why would we worry about what anyone else thinks?


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 23, 2007)

exile said:


> My feeling is that we would do better to adopt that attitude ourselves, rather than worry excessively about the media-created image that TKD suffers from. It doesn't really affect our training on an individual level, or our ability to defend ourselves from a violent street attack, does it? If those things are OK, and we _know_ it, why would we worry about what anyone else thinks?



Less time worrying and arguing, more time training.  I'm with you there Exile.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 23, 2007)

From a outside perspective:

Focus on what you do, not what you don't do.  TKD is a fun sport, it has its own rules and it is designed to work within those rules.  Boxers don't go on and on about there kicking, Judo doesn't insist that it has kicks that are just as good too.  Yet some TKD practitioners / schools insist they have everything, and everything they have is the best available. 

Stop promoting symbols.  Really young black belts are only one of those, inflated ranks and titles are also there.  You don't need a longer belt to fit more stripes and embroidery on it, a plain black one is just fine.  You don't have to write "Master" or "Grandmaster" on everything either, your name is fine.  If you need a title, go with "Instructor", under your name.  Same as in other professions.

Truth.  At the end of the day most TKD people know that there style came from Shotokan, at least any of them that cared enough to do any looking.  Yet we still see adds and documentries proclaiming it as a 2000 year old art.  Yes, there is a continous trail backwards in any style to the beginning of time, but that doesn't make the current practices 2000 years old.

What kills TKD's image is, IMO, nothing to do with the art, but all the crap surrounding it.  Funky histories, inflated ranks, promoting of inflated ranks and titles, and the insistance that it has what it does not.


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## stoneheart (Aug 23, 2007)

Exile, your post is all too rational, but I really don't think logic can or should apply here.  Martial arts is obviously something we all spend a lot of time on.  We believe it's a worthwhile activity and many of us, particularly those that teach, even evangelize martial arts as a life-changing opportunity.

I myself am a teacher.  I have a responsibility to my art to advance it, and that means educating others about the benefits my art has to offer.  It does not mean I have to hide my art's weaknesses nor do I need to be untruthful in any way to promote my art.  It DOES mean I should take any chance I get in a forum like this or in person to answer when someone is misrepresenting my my art is.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 23, 2007)

stoneheart said:


> I myself am a teacher.  I have a responsibility to my art to advance it, and that means educating others about the benefits my art has to offer.  It does not mean I have to hide my art's weaknesses nor do I need to be untruthful in any way to promote my art.  It DOES mean I should take any chance I get in a forum like this or in person to answer when someone is misrepresenting my my art is.



It is said the warrior's is the twofold Way of pen and sword, and he should have a taste for both Ways - Miyamoto Musashi.




Not to contradict my previous about more training or anything...!


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 23, 2007)

"then real remedy is for people to eliminate those doubts by shifting their training to a format which will allow the intrinsic effectiveness of the art to emerge. If we could magically bring the RoK White Tiger commandos from the Vietnam War era into the present with their battlefield combat skills intact, I somehow doubt that they's be particularly worried about how people viewed their fighting system"............[Exile]

This is the entire heart of the TKD problem. There's an old saying, "one is judged by the company one keeps". Just as with people, attempting to get other's to view you differently, while still hanging around those that tant your credibility is an excersise in futility. 

"I understand where you are coming from, but abandoning the name Taekwondo is abandoning all those who went before us and disrespecting our teachers"............[FieldDiscipline]

If what is being taught (by the majority) is not what was taught by our teachers, is not that disrespect? Look back at all the different named styles/disciplines that are out there. They all were part of something and went off on their own with a new name. {Shotokan = TKD} There comes a point in time where trying to revive something that's broken will take more time an effort than trying to start a new. 

I've gotta ask, is that what Taekido is? [FieldDiscipline]

Yes. It's what we like to refer too as "old school" TKD. The sport connection/training is removed and focus is on self defense.


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## exile (Aug 23, 2007)

FieldDiscipline said:


> Less time worrying and arguing, *more time training. *



The main point, in a nutshell. It's all in the training. The primary source of satisfaction from the art _must_ come from the activity, because if it doesn't, then the MA (TKD or whatever) becomes... well, a _job_ (at least, given what most people's jobs are like). The whole point of doing something you don't have to is the pleasure of the immediate experience, and the secondary pleasure of knowing that the activity which you find rewarding to carry out just for the pleasure of doing it has very useful applications, should you need to call upon for those purposes. 



Andrew Green said:


> Truth.  At the end of the day most TKD people know that there style came from Shotokan, at least any of them that cared enough to do any looking.  Yet we still see adds and documentries proclaiming it as a 2000 year old art.  Yes, there is a continous trail backwards in any style to the beginning of time, but that doesn't make the current practices 2000 years old.


[/QUOTE]

The need for an invented ancient lineage is again something I take to be an indication of an external need that has nothing to do with the satisfaction due to the activity itself. As Gm. Kim Pyung-Soo in Rob Mclain's interview in MT's magazine points out, Gen. Choi himself didn't begin the `ancient lineage' business until much later in his career, when he was consciously trying to purge TKD of any connection to Japan (including, ironically, Okinawa, another victim of Japanese colonial occupation). 



stoneheart said:


> Exile, your post is all too rational, but I really don't think logic can or should apply here.  Martial arts is obviously something we all spend a lot of time on.  We believe it's a worthwhile activity and many of us, particularly those that teach, even evangelize martial arts as a life-changing opportunity.



Stoneheart, that's precisely why logic and rationality _must_ apply: they're our best method for guaranteeing that we can identify and focus on the essentials, undistracted or misled by things which only look important, but which turn out to be irrelevant. Particularly when there's a big emotional investment involved, clear thinking is crucial. And if we're trying to interest others in this (or any other) activity, it's very important I think to understand exactly what it is about the activity is important and beneficial. What I was trying to suggest in my earlier post, for the reasons stated, is that what is important and beneficial has nothing to do with the perceptions of people whose impressions are based on complete lack of familiarity with the art, or on a casual awareness of only the tournament sport side of the art, or on what they read on other MA fora , or see demonstrated on TV specials intended more to generate a big viewership than to inform and educate. It has to do with the benefits and advantages of the activity itself, and these are exactly the sorts of thing that logic and rationality are necessary for.

For example, take Andrew's point about Shotokan. Understanding that the technical content of TKD arises directly from that of Shotokanthe nature of its strategic plan, the use of deflection to divert attacks and impose control over the attacker's limbs to force vulnerable points on the upper body into range of explosive strike to crucial weak points, such as eyes, throat, or the carotid sinusgives TKDists insight into the fighting tactics embodied in their own hyungs, largely borrowed from Shotokan kata or reconstructed and mixmastered on the basis of subsequences from these kata. The tremendous wealth of research on the inherent combat logic of the Pinan/Heian kata, for example, which is currently being carried out, can be directly applied _and trained in hard, noncompliant `live' format_ by TKDs who either have been fortunate enough to learn the Korean `translations' of these kata, the Pyung-Ahn set, or have discovered the many subelements of the Pinans that persist, in recombined forms, in the Palgwes, for example. Understanding how the `down block', in Rick Clark's brilliant analyses of classical kihon elements in karate, can be decomposed into a series of pining moves, elbow strikes, and hammerfist, is something we can apply directly in our own practice, training, and teaching. Focusing on these _essential_ kinds of elements, as vs. worrying about why people on some of the nastier discussion boards of our acquaintance seem to love dissing TKD, seems a far more constructive and therapeutic activity, no?




stoneheart said:


> I myself am a teacher.  I have a responsibility to my art to advance it, and that means educating others about the benefits my art has to offer.



Of coursebut doesn't the kind of focus I'm suggesting, as vs. the kind of fretting people do about why outsiders don't take TKD as seriously as we think they should, lead to more advancement of the art, and more content to the education that we hope to offer others? _Telling_ people is never quite as good as _showing_ them; that's why I believe that if we cultivate our own garden, and develop the TKD that we want it to be, we'll communicate its value to others much more convincingly than otherwise...


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 23, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> If what is being taught (by the majority) is not what was taught by our teachers, is not that disrespect?



If you are saying that it _is_ what they taught you then yes.  I believe it is disrespectful to fail to attribute your art to those who taught it to you, and to call it something it is not.



Brad Dunne said:


> Look back at all the different named styles/disciplines that are out there. *They all were part of something and went off on their own with a new name. {Shotokan = TKD*} There comes a point in time where trying to revive something that's broken will take more time an effort than trying to start a new.



When the Chung Do Kwan was founded in 1944 the art taught was called Tang Soo Do.  This was the korean translation of one of the interpretations of Karate.  They didnt go off with a new name.  In 1955 when the systems were first amalgamated to provide a governing body this was changed to appease other kwans.


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 23, 2007)

When the Chung Do Kwan was founded in 1944 the art taught was called Tang Soo Do. This was the korean translation of one of the interpretations of Karate. They didnt go off with a new name. In 1955 when the systems were first amalgamated to provide a governing body this was changed to appease other kwans.

Excuse me, but that statement "they didn't go off with a new name" smacks of contradiction. OK, so they called it Tang Soo Do, which was what, Japanese Karate. So they did not want to keep the Japanese title, we all understand that. But from TSD came TKD, so they did rename it, even if it was to just appease the kwans and in turn, it took a different direction than TSD. Today, TKD has again redefined itself from it's original concepts, when it seperated/differed from TSD. All were doing is rehashing what has already been stated in other threads. The question was/is Improving TKD's image and aside from all the history rhetoric, TKD does have a negitive image and will have for a long time. There's only 2 things that can be done; either stay the course and wait/hope things turn around or go into a chosen direction with a new name and remove yourself from the stigma that most folks associate with TKD.


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## exile (Aug 23, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> I've gotta ask, is that what Taekido is? [FieldDiscipline]
> 
> Yes. It's what we like to refer too as "old school" TKD. The sport connection/training is removed and focus is on self defense.



Brad&#8212;I gotta ask this, because I'm a bit confused: when I checked out Taekido in the `articles for creation' page of Wikipedia (here), this is what I got:

_Taekido

It encourages: confidence, discipline, self defence and respect . Taekido encompasses the physical, mental and spiritual issues of training.
Taekido is known for it&#8217;s *dramatic flying and spinning kicks*, holds, throws and locks. The name comes from the Korean word tae (foot), Japanese word ki (vital breath, energy), Korean and Japanese word do (way). Taekido is more than a science of tactics and self defence, *it is a discipline for perfecting the spirit*.
In the process of training in the art of Taekido, you will learn resolve conflict without harm to yourself or others. *From this practice of "moving Zen",*there comes a greater sense of well-being.​_
(my emphases in bold). So now I'm wondering: is there more than one picture of a KMA which `Taekido' refers to? Because I have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about when you say `old-school TKD': Kwan-era, Koreanized karate, SD emphasis, a lot of hand/arm techs in addition to kicking. But what I've cited doesn't sound very much like that! Did the guys relying on Kwan-era TKD&#8212;with its low Shotokan-style kicks and emphasis on upper-body techs&#8212;to keep in one piece on the _very_ mean streets of post-occupation Seoul really think of what they were training in as `moving Zen' (Zen being a tradition pretty foreign to Korea in any case... )? So I'm asking myself, is `Taekido' all that standardized a label for something?


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 24, 2007)

is there more than one picture of a KMA which `Taekido' refers to? [Exile]

The information you were able to locate comes from an Australian based school/organization, which is Japanese influenced, ie; Hombu/Sensei/Dojo. There is a TaeKido organization based in Germany, which also falls under the same criteria. Our affiliation is American/Korean based. The term TaeKido is used as a generic term, much like "Karate" has become, because it can relate to various styles. Although it's primarily directed at/for TKD practicioners, other Korean based styles that focus on self defense can be/are included.


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## exile (Aug 24, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> is there more than one picture of a KMA which `Taekido' refers to? [Exile]
> 
> The information you were able to locate comes from an Australian based school/organization, which is Japanese influenced, ie; Hombu/Sensei/Dojo. There is a TaeKido organization based in Germany, which also falls under the same criteria. Our affiliation is American/Korean based. The term TaeKido is used as a generic term, much like "Karate" has become, because it can relate to various styles. Although it's primarily directed at/for TKD practicioners, other Korean based styles that focus on self defense can be/are included.



Ah, OK. Thanks for clearing that up, Brad. BTW, do you folks have your own web site yet?


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 24, 2007)

Brad Dunne said:


> Excuse me, but that statement "they didn't go off with a new name" smacks of contradiction. OK, so *they called it Tang Soo Do, which was what, Japanese Karate. So they did not want to keep the Japanese title*, we all understand that. But from TSD came TKD, so they did rename it, even if it was to just appease the kwans and in turn, it took a different direction than TSD. Today, TKD has again redefined itself from it's original concepts, when it seperated/differed from TSD. All were doing is rehashing what has already been stated in other threads. The question was/is Improving TKD's image and aside from all the history rhetoric, TKD does have a negitive image and will have for a long time. There's only 2 things that can be done; either stay the course and wait/hope things turn around or go into a chosen direction with a new name and remove yourself from the stigma that most folks associate with TKD.



That_ is _the Japanese title, in korean.  There was little doubt what it was.

Today's Tang Soo Do (Moo Duk Kwan)  is (and was at that time) a different art, with different origins, to the Chung Do Kwan TSD that later, due to political pressure, became TKD.

'Removing yourself from the stigma' seems a dishonest thing to do.  I think it would be far better, if you are above the things TKD has been accused of, to maintain your standards and prove these people wrong.


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## Brad Dunne (Aug 24, 2007)

'Removing yourself from the stigma' seems a dishonest thing to do.
I think it would be far better, if you are above the things TKD has been accused of, to maintain your standards and prove these people wrong. [FieldDiscipline]

We seem to be talking in circles here........... Your content, to as I said "stay the course" and that's fine. My personal political viewpoints in reguards to KMA's and TKD in general have been tainted to say the least. I feel no obligation to "honor" those, that have dishonored their own, just for the sake of the allmighty dollar...........


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## deadhand31 (Aug 27, 2007)

To improve TKD's image, I would try to make sparring more combative and a lot less like a glorified game of tag. How about allowing head punches? How about allowing kicks to the legs? How about allowing fights to go to the ground instead of stopping the match? 

If we made all of those changes, the art of TKD in the public eye would be radically transformed. You wouldn't see people sparring with their hands down, or throwing weak kicks that barely offer any contact. Hands would start to be used instead of relying solely on the feet. We wouldn't see any more people standing belly-to-belly to score a glancing shot on the way out. In my opinion, these are changes that would help to remove the stigma that is plaguing our art.


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## terryl965 (Aug 27, 2007)

deadhand31 said:


> To improve TKD's image, I would try to make sparring more combative and a lot less like a glorified game of tag. How about allowing head punches? How about allowing kicks to the legs? How about allowing fights to go to the ground instead of stopping the match?
> 
> If we made all of those changes, the art of TKD in the public eye would be radically transformed. You wouldn't see people sparring with their hands down, or throwing weak kicks that barely offer any contact. Hands would start to be used instead of relying solely on the feet. We wouldn't see any more people standing belly-to-belly to score a glancing shot on the way out. In my opinion, these are changes that would help to remove the stigma that is plaguing our art.


 

You can find all of that if you asre at the right dojaang.


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## deadhand31 (Aug 27, 2007)

terryl965 said:


> You can find all of that if you asre at the right dojaang.



Which is why I'm glad to be training at my dojang. The problem is that the training I get isn't the training that the public sees. In our Wal-Mart society, the only organizations that hit the public eye are those with the most money. Such is the case of the WTF in the Olympics. The WTF system of sparring which is showcased is the reason why we get the bad rep. If the WTF decided to change for the better, then the exposure that the art would get in the public eye would be more positive. 

Had they changed, my school might still be a WTF member. We had to break off after the new "Revised" rules only furthered the art as a game of tag.


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## terryl965 (Aug 27, 2007)

deadhand31 said:


> Which is why I'm glad to be training at my dojang. The problem is that the training I get isn't the training that the public sees. In our Wal-Mart society, the only organizations that hit the public eye are those with the most money. Such is the case of the WTF in the Olympics. The WTF system of sparring which is showcased is the reason why we get the bad rep. If the WTF decided to change for the better, then the exposure that the art would get in the public eye would be more positive.
> 
> Had they changed, my school might still be a WTF member. We had to break off after the new "Revised" rules only furthered the art as a game of tag.


 

I'm glad you are training in a great school.


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## exile (Aug 27, 2007)

deadhand31 said:


> Had they changed, my school might still be a WTF member. We had to break off after the new "Revised" rules only furthered the art as a game of tag.



But what you've just said is _exactly_ what happens from the logic of the situation: those who want to follow the course that the WTF is following&#8212;which I believe will in the end lead to a sport with little more matial content than figure skating&#8212;will happily go along with the TKD directorate as it drives its version of the art in that direction. And those who do not will reach their own respective sticking points, when they can't stomach it any more, as _your_ school did. My own dojang is affiliated formally with the WTF/KKW, through our chief instructor, but we follow their curriculum no more than you do, either in our forms (Palgwes, Rohai, various Shotokan kata at Shodan and higher levels) or in our emphasis on SD via controlling moves and hand/arm techs, principally upper body strikes, with lots of elbow use, based on hyung sequences). Officially or unofficially, more and more schools will weigh in in this fashion, and people who are disaffected with the Korean TKD directorate will pursue their own vision of TKD, which will, I'd predict, come to look more and more like the more combative side of TSD. And the WTF/KKW will go its own merry way.

That's why I really don't think anyone needs to worry about `doing' anything. People will vote with their feet (or their membership dollars, more literally). The big mistake, as I see it, is to think of this as a kind of global problem that must be `solved.' It isn't; the solution is strictly local&#8212;you either join a dojang with a ring-sport orientation or a dojang with a CQ combat/live training orientation. You try to make contact with other dojangs, or dojos, on the same wavelength, get together to demo your techs for them and learn from theirs. You do the same thing with other arts&#8212;drop in on them and invite them to drop in on you, to see how their insights can enhance your own use of your technical toolkit. It's a wide-open world, now, especially in the MAs; no one need feel limited any more by the parochial agendas of massive supranational sport promotion bureaucracies.   

And the most important thing is for people to remember that they can shape the future of their own view of TKD through their teaching. Stick with your training, get the expertise that qualifies you (in part; you also need to learn how to teach) to pass on your knowledge, and work out a curriculum which follows the logic of effective combat. Learn from the history of your art what kind of applications various hyung moves were intended for; figure out how to get students to learn how to react to the standard initiating moves that assailants will almost certainly use in an attack, and work out skill sets, and training ideas,  for each belt level that will bring the student to the point where, if they work hard enough, they're going to hold the hex sign on any single attacker stupid enough to thow the first punch (or _look_ like they're going to throw the first punch&#8212;preemptive strikes, IMO, definitely have a place in the curriculum). Teach your vision to students..._that_ I think is the way that those who think TKD is in serious trouble to solve the problem: one class at a time, one student at a time: re-create the art according to your own vision of it. The poet of the _Rubaiyat_ put it perfectly: 

_Ah Love! could thou and I with Fate conspire
To grasp this sorry Scheme of Things entire,
Would we not shatter it to bits&#8212;and then
Re-mould it nearer to the Heart's Desire!_​
We would indeed!

There's work to be done&#8212;and that doesn't include worrying about what people who get their information from television think....

just my .02$


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## Steel Tiger (Aug 27, 2007)

I'm sorry to have come to this discussion so late, but I would like to offer a few observations from the perspective of a non-TKD practioner.

On the surface, to a layperson, TKD would not appear to have an image problem.  It is massively popular, gives practioners the chance to win the super-kudos of an Olympic medal, and has a strong governing body.  All looks pretty good to mr and ms Joe Average.

As a martial artist I can see that there are problems and they form an interesting set.  Firstly, there is the fact that the governing body is favouring one aspect of the art rather than the art as a whole.  Then there is the fact that there are actually a number of governing bodies with conflicting approaches.  But these things can only be seen by those who have some understanding of them, that is, martial artists in general and TKD proponents in particular.  

So to the question of improving TKD's image I have to ask which image?  The ultimate public image is actually very good.  It encourages thousands of people to take up the art each year.  Or is it the practioner's image? The one that martial artists can see.  I think that many people have already given good examples of how to deal with this image issue.


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## FieldDiscipline (Aug 28, 2007)

exile said:


> You do the same thing with other arts&#8212;drop in on them and invite them to drop in on you, to see how their insights can enhance your own use of your technical toolkit. It's a wide-open world, now, especially in the MAs; no one need feel limited any more by the parochial agendas of massive supranational sport promotion bureaucracies.



Sounds very JKD Exile... The thought police are on their way!



exile said:


> Teach your vision to students..._that_ I think is the way that those who think TKD is in serious trouble to solve the problem: one class at a time, one student at a time: re-create the art according to your own vision of it.



Therein lies the answer.  The only answer.

Steel Tiger:





> I'm sorry to have come to this discussion so late, but I would like to offer a few observations from the perspective of a non-TKD practioner.
> 
> On the surface, to a layperson, TKD would not appear to have an image problem. It is massively popular, gives practioners the chance to win the super-kudos of an Olympic medal, and has a strong governing body. All looks pretty good to mr and ms Joe Average.
> 
> ...



I agree entirely, cracking post.


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## Kwan Jang (Aug 29, 2007)

Exile, I believe you have hit the nail on the head towards the only real "solution" to the "problem".


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## exile (Aug 29, 2007)

Kwan Jang, I very much appreciate your words, coming as they do from someone who has been a master to  _my_ sahbumnim in TKD.

:asian:


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## Kwan Jang (Aug 30, 2007)

My pleasure, Sir.


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## Jusus (Sep 29, 2007)

Sapper6 said:


> i agree somewhat.  that's just it.  you cannot fault TKD for having child black belts.  it's the requirements of the certain schools within the system that is at fault, however, that doesn't apply to all TKD schools.  i am sure there are some out there that do not fall into that category.  they are just fewer in numbers.  there is a standard to everything.  some are lower than others, especially with the all mighty dollar at stake.


I'd like to tell my story. I trained for a year with a highly respected 7th dan. However he did not own the school that I was training at. The owner came back, a guy of questionable morals and business pratices. I should have know something was wrong when we no longer did Katas, and I got promoted to red belt anyway. One day up out of the blue he tell us to report to another school, and that he would be closing, we were all under contract to him for another year. (trying to get out of a contract is got to be the most difficult thing in MA,) However the year that I trained I did learn the importance of being fit, and working out, I was previously a serious couch patato, and I did lose 15 lbs. I am now seeking a new instructor. and mulling over the fact that I'm not really a red belt and that I only paid for one, some how the instructor never did furnish the certificate that was suppost to come with the new rank. So in closing I would like to tell everyone to be carefull, check check and double check the business practices, and the moral of the person that teaches you MA. And never sign a contract.


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## cbursk (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm going to have to go with Steel Tiger on this one.



Steel Tiger said:


> I'm sorry to have come to this discussion so late, but I would like to offer a few observations from the perspective of a non-TKD practioner.
> 
> On the surface, to a layperson, TKD would not appear to have an image problem. It is massively popular, gives practioners the chance to win the super-kudos of an Olympic medal, and has a strong governing body. All looks pretty good to mr and ms Joe Average.
> 
> ...


 
To the general public, TKD - at least in my experience - it has a great image.  In fact I would bet that the average joe doesn't even know the difference between TKD and Karate.  The only time I hear anyone putting it down is by another martial artist.  At the end of the day isn't it all about getting people to do something to improve themselves and hopefully have some fun doing it?

Also the whole child BB thing is a problem for any art that teaches children, not just TKD.  How should we handle children who have satisfied every item on a schools curriculum but are only 7, 8 or 10?  Tell them that because a 14 yr old 40 lbs heavier can still hurt them that they don't deserve their belt?  If that's the case then I guess every 40+ year old red belt who passes their BB test doesn't get one either because they can't hang with the 20 year olds?

Just a few things to consider...


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## Cirdan (Oct 2, 2007)

cbursk said:


> How should we handle children who have satisfied every item on a schools curriculum but are only 7, 8 or 10?


 
Frankly I find the concept of a 7 year old mastering the basics of a martial arts system humorous. An exceptional 14 year old, perhaps. And in this case wait until he is 16 or 18 and then let him grade for Dan rank.

Face it, there is one reason for 7 year old black belts; MONEY!


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## cbursk (Oct 2, 2007)

Cirdan said:


> Frankly I find the concept of a 7 year old mastering the basics of a martial arts system humorous.
> 
> 
> > Ok -   maybe using the example of a 7 year old was a bit extreme.  But the real question is were do you draw the line and if a school has an established curriculum - do you hold people back from rank because of age/size?  At the school were I teach we have both extremes:
> ...


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## rogerclf1 (Oct 2, 2007)

I have an idea.  Get rid of these so called masters from Yong In University.  I have had enough of these people claiming they teach Hapkido when all it is Yong Mu Do, Charge way over $100.00 a month for 2 45min classes a week, and "Deputy Belts".  Don't even get me started with that.  Also the testing cost between $60.00 and 100.00 per test.  These people are only in it for the money and I have to say they have met their goal, along with destroying the Korean arts.


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## Cirdan (Oct 3, 2007)

cbursk said:


> Ok -  maybe using the example of a 7 year old was a bit extreme. But the real question is were do you draw the line and if a school has an established curriculum - do you hold people back from rank because of age/size?


 
Each school has their own standards, requirements and philosophy. That is really all there is to it. Making a rank system that fits is really not the big issue.

Both clubs I train at have black belts who graded well into their 60s and 70s. They were able to get to this level because they had the will to go trough it and I wouldn`t want to face any of them in a fight. High kicks are not really a rquirement tho.. having the skill and will to take somone out is.

We don`t have any kid black belts because Dan ranks are not tested for until 16 (18 in JJ). Also we don`t train kids under the age of 7 because they don`t have the neccecary coordinationt to learn the arts yet. If we did train them it would be play and little else. Getting a black belt takes a dedicated student 7 years and a kid who does well will train with the adults from the age of 13. Learning the extra material in the adult curriculum takes a lot of time. Those who have to wait a year or more extra for their Dan test are exceptional students and are definately not in the Dojo for the belts anyway.


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## tellner (Oct 3, 2007)

What needs to be improved? 

TKD was designed to promote Korean nationalism. It does that admirably.

It was set up and heavily promoted to become an Olympic sport. Check.

It was pretty much explicitly put together in ways guaranteed to give it greater numbers and more recognition than Judo. It's done that.

As long as its reach doesn't exceed its grasp and it doesn't try to be anything that it's not it's all good. If the Powers That Be in TKD were promoting it as a weapons or grappling art or put it forward as the answer for serious self defense there would be problems. But aside from a few teachers who are a little over exuberant about their marketing that doesn't happen much. 

Iron-clad contracts, a heavy drive towards recruiting kids, optimization for athletic contests, safety constraints, and many levels of rank given out at regular intervals are marketing and retention tools. If you want commercial schools to stay in business that's what you have to do. And without those commercial schools TKD wouldn't have accomplished its institutional goals. 

Belts are pieces of cloth that hold your uniform together. They don't have any intrinsic meaning. The original purpose was to break with Japan's past while giving a teacher a quick way of assessing the skills of people he'd never met. TKD's goals are not necessarily Judo's goals. Some tweaking has occurred that makes the means (belts) better serve the ends.


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## Steel Tiger (Oct 3, 2007)

cbursk said:


> Also the whole child BB thing is a problem for any art that teaches children, not just TKD. *How should we handle children who have satisfied every item on a schools curriculum but are only 7, 8 or 10?* Tell them that because a 14 yr old 40 lbs heavier can still hurt them that they don't deserve their belt? If that's the case then I guess every 40+ year old red belt who passes their BB test doesn't get one either because they can't hang with the 20 year olds?


 
The thought that springs instantly to mind for me is, "A child of 7, 8, or even 10, should not be *able* to satisfy every item on a school's curriculum."  There simply should be some things that are not possible for someone who is still developing physically, and there certainly should be some things they cannot understand intellectually.

Recently we heard of a very cute little girl who had achieved a 2nd degree at the age of six or seven.  It makes people go "ooh" and "aah" but when they stop and think about it they might be thinking, "Is TKD so easy to learn that a child can have a 2nd degree black belt?  Aren't Blacks belts supposed to represent mastery or something?"  What does that do for TKD's image?

I know that most of these children's programs have a simplified syllabus and are designed to draw in new students, but it cannot be good for TKD's image even if it is good for individual schools' bank balances.


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## terryl965 (Oct 3, 2007)

Steel Tiger said:


> The thought that springs instantly to mind for me is, "A child of 7, 8, or even 10, should not be *able* to satisfy every item on a school's curriculum." There simply should be some things that are not possible for someone who is still developing physically, and there certainly should be some things they cannot understand intellectually.
> 
> Recently we heard of a very cute little girl who had achieved a 2nd degree at the age of six or seven. It makes people go "ooh" and "aah" but when they stop and think about it they might be thinking, "Is TKD so easy to learn that a child can have a 2nd degree black belt? Aren't Blacks belts supposed to represent mastery or something?" What does that do for TKD's image?
> 
> I know that most of these children's programs have a simplified syllabus and are designed to draw in new students, but it cannot be good for TKD's image even if it is good for individual schools' bank balances.


 

Can I just add a few things here about what the Kukkiwon says about childern BB, they are called poom belts for anybody under the age of 14, some refer to them as a Bodan belt while other call them a probationary belt until they reach that golden age.

He is another scenerio, gymnis can be only 9-10-11 and compete at the Olympic level just like adults, I do relize that this age cannot compete against adults fighting. My point is they are called wonder childern for all there hard work and people are amazed by there talent. There are some childern that train everyday for five, six or seven years and by the time they are 9-10-11 deserve to have this belt, now with that being said do they know everything an adult knows NO, but they are where they need to be to have that poom rank.

I Know some of you are going to just ridacul me about this but there are some that have meet my sons and knows about there talent at there current ages. I will end with this tought, why should a student be held back if they train like an adult and put the time in and why should adult be promoted when they cannot and should not be given a second look.

I wish the world was perfect but it is not and there are flaws in every system and TKD needs alot of good PR work to get back the respect they once had. But it is these so called Belt factories that are only there to make money and not give a crap about the students.


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