# Keeping your stance in self defense.



## Midnight-shadow (Jul 10, 2016)

I just watched the above video and all the things in it made a lot of sense for surviving an attack on the street, particularly the part about making a clear decision to either fight or flight, rather than try to do both at once. I also like the set of drills given at the end of the video for keeping a solid fighting stance under pressure. 

What do you guys think about the advice given in the video?


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## Bill Mattocks (Jul 10, 2016)

Good stuff.


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## marques (Jul 10, 2016)

Generally speaking, I liked it. Good and clear instruction.

Just one remark. It is good have a clear pathway to follow, as he gives. But in reality there are always opposite ways working as well (like grappling vs striking). The best depends on circumstances and individual advantages / characteristics.

In this case it seems he advises to face the aggressor in a 'square stance'. Because better for counter. My actual instructor says "sideways, sideways, sideways" because gives less area to be attacked and more distance. I like 45 degrees for allowing these both strategies...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2016)

To move backward is not a bad strategy. When you move back, your opponent moves forward, and straight punch at your face, your 45 degree downward hay-maker with body rotation can not only knock down his straight punch, if he moves in quickly, your hay-maker can even hit on the back of his head and knock him down. To be able to hit on the back of your opponent's head is not easy. When you step back and your opponent steps in, you will have your chance to do so.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 10, 2016)

marques said:


> Generally speaking, I liked it. Good and clear instruction.
> 
> Just one remark. It is good have a clear pathway to follow, as he gives. But in reality there are always opposite ways working as well (like grappling vs striking). The best depends on circumstances and individual advantages / characteristics.
> 
> In this case it seems he advises to face the aggressor in a 'square stance'. Because better for counter. My actual instructor says "sideways, sideways, sideways" because gives less area to be attacked and more distance. I like 45 degrees for allowing these both strategies...



The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 10, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.


The side way stance can be a "cross stance" instead. You can have your right leg forward and left hand forward.

It's a trade off. You either have

- 1 long arm, 1 short arm, less chest/belly exposed, or
- 2 equal length arms, more chest/belly exposed.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 10, 2016)

I'm surprised that he just didn't say "Stance training" which includes learning how to move while in a stance and while transitioning stances.  You know that boring stance training stuff that many people think is useless.


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## marques (Jul 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.


Absolutely agree. This is way I don't follow very much that advice of him. 

But I understand that his background in JKD and Wrestling gives him some comfort being sideways. (As well as to TKD guys...) And he have good balance and distance management. And steps in to use the rear side. I am more a kickboxer, so I have not many options (don't like) sideways.

Once more, I believe it is good to follow one way (to start), but being aware the possibilities are numerous...


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2016)

IMO, the best fighting stance is either you are ready to 

- spring forward (for offense), or
- spin your body by moving your back leg and move yourself out of your opponent's attacking path (for defense).


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.



Why can't you attack using rear arm and leg? We do it all the time in a sideways stance. You turn on the ball of your front leg and there's the rear arm/leg kicking/punching. That spin gives a nice extra propulsion to the strike. You can step forward on to your front leg striking with the rear/arm leg. I think you may be stuck in 'boxing' mode of one stance and staying in the same place.


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## Midnight-shadow (Jul 11, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why can't you attack using rear arm and leg? We do it all the time in a sideways stance. You turn on the ball of your front leg and there's the rear arm/leg kicking/punching. That spin gives a nice extra propulsion to the strike. You can step forward on to your front leg striking with the rear/arm leg. I think you may be stuck in 'boxing' mode of one stance and staying in the same place.



Granted, you can do that however to my mind that would create a very telegraphed attack which is therefore easily defended against.


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## Tez3 (Jul 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> Granted, you can do that however to my mind that would create a very telegraphed attack which is therefore easily defended against.



Perhaps in what you do but have you watched MT fighters and kickboxers? Our MMA fighters went to Thailand to train and came back very fast doing exactly the moves I've described and they aren't telegraphed. In the karate I do we also train to move fast with non telegraphed moves.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2016)

Tez3 said:


> Why can't you attack using rear arm and leg? We do it all the time in a sideways stance. You turn on the ball of your front leg and there's the rear arm/leg kicking/punching. That spin gives a nice extra propulsion to the strike. You can step forward on to your front leg striking with the rear/arm leg. I think you may be stuck in 'boxing' mode of one stance and staying in the same place.


I fight in a side stance all the time and I don't have any of those problems either.  The only thing that a side stance means is that the close objects are going to hit first and be followed up with something from the rear, all while moving in and out of a sideways stance.  I think the confusion is that many people confuse the side ways stance in training vs the application of sideways (side stance) in fighting.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2016)

side stance action
lead leg, rear arm, lead leg





lead arm, rear arm, rear leg





Some Sanda knockouts that includes various "telegraphed" rear leg and rear hand KO's


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## drop bear (Jul 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.



Can't run in it.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 11, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.


The side way stance can give you a "fast retreat" if needed. You can't retreat that far and that fast by using other stances.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2016)

Manny Pacquiao uses a side stance.  You can see him transitioning in and out of the side stance as he fights. Compare his stance to his opponents stance.


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## JowGaWolf (Jul 11, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Can't run in it.


yep definitely not fast enough to get retreat.


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## Buka (Jul 11, 2016)

When you fight, the whole thing about stances is pretty simple. if you use a lousy stance, it's going to get shoved so far up your sun don't shine that you'll likely not forget it.

If you do forget it, it probably won't happen a third time. Eventually, everybody catches on.


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## RTKDCMB (Jul 12, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight.


Since when?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> The problem with a sideways stance is it means you cannot attack or defend with your rear arm or leg, giving you less options in a fight. It also makes it easier for someone to hook-kick you in the back to knock you off balance.


Whether you are in a "side way stance" or not, if your opponent just moves in circle around you, you will be in "side way stance" no matter you like it of not. The angle between you and your opponent can be changed dynamically.


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## Paul_D (Jul 12, 2016)

Another martial artist who has mistaken fighting for self defence.  "Bad guys" don't "fight" you.  They use the four d's (Dialgue, deception, distraction, destruction) to take you out of the game before you even knew you were in it.  They don't want to fight you, they want to take what you have with the minimum amount of fuss and risk.

The only time you are likely to find yourself in a fighting stance is if you agree to step out side for a square go.  But that's street fighting, which is illegal, and has nothing to do with self defence.

As for all the talk of leaving yourself open to heel hooks, trained martial artists are not in the habit of agreeing to get into street fights with other trained artists, for one it is likely to be in the T&C's of your club that you will be thrown out for brining your association, art and club into disrepute.

Could you be attacked by a trained martial artist, yes.  Is it going to be the sort of illegal activity which poses the biggest threat to your personal safety, probably not.  Certainly not to the point that you need to devote large amounts of training into learning how to defeat people from other arts.

Fighting stances are for fights, either in the ring, the cage or the pub car park.  Self defence however is a totally different ball game, and believing your physical prowess in the ring, cage or dojo is going to transfer into SD success is like believing table tennis lessons will help you win Wimbledon.

Just ask Maiquel Falcao And Kaue Mena.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2016)

No matter which fighting stance that your opponent may use, The 1st thing that you can do is to move your back foot, line up with his both feet. This way you can have the following advantages:

- His leading arm can jam his own back arm, and his back arm will be hard to reach you.
- When you shoot in, no matter how he may move his leading leg, his leading leg will always be in your attacking range.


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## Tez3 (Jul 12, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Fighting stances are for fights, either in the ring, the cage or the pub car park.



And if you are going to do that actually know what the stances are, what you can do when in them and then practice them...........




Kung Fu Wang said:


> if your opponent just moves in circle around you,



I actually fought someone like that, kept going round and round until told by the ref to actually engage or get off. I won I think because they'd either worn themselves out or made themselves dizzy.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2016)

Paul_D said:


> Another martial artist who has mistaken fighting for self defence.  "Bad guys" don't "fight" you.  They use the four d's (Dialgue, deception, distraction, destruction) to take you out of the game before you even knew you were in it.  They don't want to fight you, they want to take what you have with the minimum amount of fuss and risk.
> 
> The only time you are likely to find yourself in a fighting stance is if you agree to step out side for a square go.  But that's street fighting, which is illegal, and has nothing to do with self defence.
> 
> ...



Ok. Self defence advice has to be presented as successful somewhere before you send the little tykes out into the real world against bad guys.

So regardless what bad guys do and don't do. What you have to do is have a system you can train that works.

And by works. I mean against a real person trying to stop you. If you can't do that. Excuses like rules or mats or that you don't have five guys backing you up honestly won't amount to a hill of beans.

So in the gym. Stances work. If you want to jump in against a guy with gloves on and have no stance and no plan you will get your face punched in.

For real in that environment. 

If you are trying then to argue that had it been a guy with intent to hurt you bare knuckle and no rules you would have somehow faired better. Then you are making a logic leap that just does not make sense.

Now we can theorise on what to do outside a gym. How to lock your car doors or defend a sucker punch. But they are a tactical addition to basic gym trained methods that you know works. Rather than a replacement for it.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Whether you are in a "side way stance" or not, if your opponent just moves in circle around you, you will be in "side way stance" no matter you like it of not. The angle between you and your opponent can be changed dynamically.



Not sure what circling like that actually does. It is not like you are going to out maneuver the guy in the middle. He has a lot less distance to travel.

But yeah. Fight in three dimensions.


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## drop bear (Jul 12, 2016)

Ok. The street. I don't know why I seem to be the only person who has ever thought of this but.

You get attacked or threatened. Take a step back. Take control of your environment and gain as much advantage as you can.

Then you can fight with a stance and any movement you feel comfortable with. Dont be forced into their fight.

It is not brain science.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jul 12, 2016)

drop bear said:


> Not sure what circling like that actually does. It is not like you are going to out maneuver the guy in the middle. He has a lot less distance to travel.


If you drag your opponent's arm (or clothes if he has), you can force him to either move with you, or resist against you. In either case, you can take advantage on his commitment.

It's similar to the wrestling "arm drag". You try to move behind of your opponent.


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