# why ninjutsu?



## Enson (Aug 11, 2004)

why did everyone here choose ninjutsu as their art? what did ninjutsu have that made you say "this is what i want to do for the rest of my life"?



this question if for all who claim ninjutsu as their primary art. whether it be an "offshoot" or whatever.


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## Jay Bell (Aug 11, 2004)

Hrm...in all honesty, it was almost by accident.  I stopped training in Kenpo and wanted to continue martial arts training.  I grew up in a small town with lilttle to offer beyond TKD and....well....TKD.  While flipping through Black Belt Magazine, I saw and ad....so I ordered a few of Van Donk's videos and worked hard on ukemi and fundamentals.  Then a satellite Dojo of Jeff Prather's set up in town.


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## Sacred (Aug 11, 2004)

Whilst nearly all martial arts provide a tradition that enables a person to grow and develop in the physical, mental, spiritual, and psychological areas of their life, it's the interest and passion in the underlining philosophy and history that lead one to find their home within a given style. 

I read the book "Mind of the Ninja" by Kirtland C. Paterson which gave me an insight to both the history and philosophies of the traditional ninja. I was inspired by it enough to take up the martial art, and have since become quite passionate about it.


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## gmunoz (Aug 11, 2004)

I began training in another style and was prompted to look into ninjutsu after seeing how passionate he was about the style he is in.  After finding the right teacher and style of ninjutsu for me, I was hooked!  No turning back!


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## Kurohana (Aug 12, 2004)

Read about SKH in Black Belt Magazine, went to the 2nd Annual Ninja Festival, met Hatsumi Sensei and that was all she wrote. I can't imagine NOT doing it. Before this I studied TKD, TSD, Aikido, Judo, dabbled in Shotokan, Isshinryu, White Crane Kung Fu, Pa Kua, boxing. I still play with Aikido on accasion, but I can't imagine not training in Ninjutsu.


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## Enson (Aug 12, 2004)

i know i started this thread... but oh well.

for me... i was a child of the 80's and i watched all the ninja movies in the world with my older brothers. used to dress up and run around outside with the $2 platic sword strapped to my back. then i grew up and realized that is was all fake and ninjutsu didn't exist.

then when i decided to study ma i looked into all styles and i found ninjutsu as a legit art. imagine my suprise! it took awhile to find the right school. one that wouldn't turn me buddist (nothing wrong with buddism but not for me) or have me chanting (against my beliefs). and thats all she wrote! i became a student and never looked back.


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## DeLamar.J (Aug 24, 2004)

Enson said:
			
		

> why did everyone here choose ninjutsu as their art? what did ninjutsu have that made you say "this is what i want to do for the rest of my life"?
> 
> 
> 
> this question if for all who claim ninjutsu as their primary art. whether it be an "offshoot" or whatever.


I have never had the chance to learn Ninjitsu. If I could have the chance to learn any art I would pick Ninjitsu in a heart beat. I like it because it seems to be the most well rounded martial art. You learn weapons, hand to hand, astrology. Most martial arts focus on hand to hand, Ninjitsu does everything. They are into philosophy, which I love. Meditation is very interesting, which they also do. Me and my friend bought every steven k hayes book we could get our hands on and trained that way, that was our only means.
We did alot of backyard weapon training, just learning from each other. We got to the point where we were beating all the other niehborhood kids at weapon sparring with bokens and staffs. We had no formal training availible so we did what we could with the books. 
I have practiced Goju-Ryu all my life but Ninjitsu has always been a huge interest because of all the other aspects of training. Your a lucky man Enson.


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## Enson (Aug 25, 2004)

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> Your a lucky man Enson.


 thanks. if you really want to learn you might want to look up some ninjustsu schools in your area. the x kan schools are kinda hard to find but there might be some there in your area. you might be able to find a *rtms club* in your area (if you want give headquarters a call and they might be able to help you find one). stephen k hayes is in dayton and he still teaches ninjutsu. if you can't make it to dayton you might find one of his quest centers in your area. just some options if you're really interested.


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## AnimEdge (Aug 25, 2004)

Mine started through a frind in my Programing class, i allways wanted to be in MA but never really got around to it for whatever reason and he said he took ninjutsu at a local gym and so i switched gyms over to that one and started to take it, i like the art style becouse it seams to be more realistic to modern becouse you try to learn everything from weapons to hand to hand and its fun to learn the side stuff like rolls and other gymnastic stuff


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 25, 2004)

AnimEdge,

What is the name of you're school? do you have a website?
Its just i've read a few of you're posts but havnt seen a name,just curious as to what your school is.
thanks.

much respect
-andrew


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## AnimEdge (Aug 25, 2004)

Actually i am unsure what our name is the over all name is American Ninjutsu through P.P.C. Personal Protection Concepts whitch is a group of teachers who was taught at the RBWI Bussey stuff

 There are like 4 schools in the area the one i am in is at a Gym called Utopia Fitness so we just generaly call it that im not sure of the offical name but ill find out soon it is located in Mansfield, Texas

 The other school whitch is based in Arlington, Texas i dont know there offical name but there website is here:
http://www.american-ninjutsu.com/
 They have very little information about anything so 

 I have been nearly given permission aka all that is needed is to gather the money for hosting and such to create the website for our area, well im not sure if it is just for our school  or for PPC in general but i will be creating the website from for my school so as soon as the money and information is collected i will create one sence i do webdesign as a side hobby/job

 So as soon as it comes in ill post the link to it


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 26, 2004)

Good work, and well done to take on the responsibility of hosting your schools website! thats great. All the best in your training, hope to see the site in the future.

much respect
-andrew


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## AaronLucia (Aug 26, 2004)

Who wouldn't wanna be a Ninja?


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## AnimEdge (Aug 26, 2004)

I know right? that brinds up a question what do you call some one who does Kempo pr TKD or Karate? like i di ninjutsu and im called a Ninja what woudl the be called?


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## Genin Andrew (Aug 26, 2004)

Hmmmm i personally dont like using the term Ninja, just because i dont really see myself worthy yet,its an honourable thing to be a Ninja. I think for Karate or TKD people they would be called martial artists,warriors? semi-warriors?practitioners? or maybe its best not to attach a title to yourself. For the more sport based/competiton karate schools i would just call them karate kids or sportsmen or something...DEFINATELY not warriors...

much respect
-andrew


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## AnimEdge (Aug 26, 2004)

I dont conceder anyone a ninja unless they have at lest a green belt whitch is the uh "secound" belt technicly but we dont count white its just consedered unranked  becouse green i think show commentment to the art so i think thet is worthy of the name, but also Ninja is usally used in non serise term so if i went to some one and said Im a Ninja they would probly find it amusing and not me being serise(sp)


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## AaronLucia (Aug 27, 2004)

Well..kinda interesting you said that. My instructor, who I believe is a 7th level black belt said that he doesn't even consider himself really a Ninja, but more a Ninja practitioner. I mean, who is really doing Ninja stuff to survive? Granted they may use the fighting art to defend themselves, but the stealth and other fun stuff aren't used too often in modern times.  

I personally think you would be a 'Ninja' after attaining your Godan, or 5th level black belt.


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## sojobow (Aug 28, 2004)

Actually, my passion is Jujitsu. Our Jujitsu class was growing quite well and the subject of why the constant growth came up.  Answer, all new students were coming to jujitsu from DRN because "those people over in DRN are intirely too vicious,  the art is just to hard to learn and the physical conditioning is just too hard.  Those guys practice nothing but how to kill an attacker as fast as possible.  Joined the next day.


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## AnimEdge (Aug 28, 2004)

I think the highest we have is a 5 Dan they say not many go past 1 becouse of the 3 hour *** kicked sessions they have to go through for each one, the funny thing is our highest the 5 Dan is a girl who is increadbly good in our system or whatever suppsably she has to go to Japan to get any higher but i don know the spacifics


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## AaronLucia (Aug 28, 2004)

They have to go through what?


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## Kalifallen (Nov 3, 2004)

Why did I choose ninjutsu?
Ever since reading the '80s comics of the Ninja Turtles (Mirage) I've been hooked. I loved the wide variety that you could learn. Stealth, weapons, camoflauge, concealment, climbing, movement, varying combat (grappling, joint locks, throws, etc), and sooooo much more. Plus the history is fasinating and the mental and spiritual abilities are great too besides the physical.


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## Satt (Nov 3, 2004)

Why not?


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## Limeydog (Nov 11, 2004)

Hi All,

I have wanted to study nnjutsu since a young boy growing up in the UK, sadly at that time I couldn't find a dojo in my area so I ended up training in Full Contact Karate, followed by Muay Thai/Wado Ryu/Kempo/American Kenpo and finally Budo Taijutsu. 25 years later I found my first Ninjutsu instructor in a small town called Sonora. It was truly love at first sight. I feel honored to have had trained (even though it was only for a year) with Shihan Bill Atkins of the Bujinkan TenChiJin dojo. He basicaly took all of my knowledge and techniques and threw them out of the window. Shihan Atkins is the first teacher who acually stopped every one of my techniques that I threw at him. Ever since moving to LA I have tried to train with other dojo's but never found one I liked. Now I train in Toshindo.

Patrick


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## Gary Arthur (Nov 11, 2004)

In reply to animedge and others, the question is can we really call ourselves Ninja. From my point of view the people we call ninja were a cultural group. That is they had their own language, poems, diet, songs, architecture, beliefs etc and according to various historical and genetic evidence were of a different origin than the mainstream Japanese. 
Based on this then if I for example studied Apache Indian Knife fighting, regrdless of how good I was I could never be an Apache Indian, in the true sense. I could only be an Englishman skilled in Apache Indian Knife Fighting.
I consider myself then not a Ninja, but an Englishman somewhat skilled in the Ninja Arts.
I know that some will point out that the word NIN means "Perserverance and Endurance" and if one is training to achieve that then one is a Ninja. But really how many of us in todays world have had to endure anything except a long wait at the supermarket kiosk to get our food. And if this is the way we classify Ninja then maybe we could say that the Jews that were imprisoned in concentration camps should bear the title NINJA, as well as other groups that have gone through such harsh extremes.
Anyway, to call yourself a Ninja in this day and age is likely to be met with dirision.
I much prefer to keep my Ninja arts secret, and only use them in extremes.
Even when I teach a class I very rarely teach Ninja techniques i.e. Togakure Ryu techniques and relates arts (if that makes sense)
Didn't Takamatsu Sensei say something like "First become a gentleman, then if you are attacked use Jujutsu, only when you have no other choice should you use Ninjutsu"


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 11, 2004)

Gary Arthur said:
			
		

> From my point of view the people we call ninja were a cultural group. That is they had their own language, poems, diet, songs, architecture, beliefs etc and according to various historical and genetic evidence were of a different origin than the mainstream Japanese.


I'd be very interested to hear your sources on this???
The way I understand it is that the view of ninja as an ethnic group (other than the inhabitants of Iga and Koga, not all of which received any type of martial training) was a grossly inaccurate one advocated by Stephen Hayes under the 80's, which during latter years both he and historians like Stephen Turnbull and Karl Friday have discarded, in the case of the two latter (at least) in favor of the much more reasonable theory that the shinobi no mono were specialized bushi that were trained in a manner which can be compared with that of the Army Rangers or other special forces units nowadays. Also, if there is anyone who still believes that the ninja were always of lower social status than "other samurai", then you'd be wise to take a quick look in the translation of the Bansenshukai (the author of which belonged to the castle in Iga-Ueno, by the way...).


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

I like that you gave something back nimravus, perhaps I'll just reserve my judgement . However, I am fairly sure I can find a link to support the theory that at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai. Leave it with me and I'll post it when I have enough time to search and read through it all. I think the point in time during the ninjutsu history is likely where the discrepancy is going to lay.

For myself, on the original question, I only studied ninjutsu last yr at a very basic lvl, but since then have travelled throughout china ( and all over the east coast of Australia prior, and Nth Island NZ prior that ( all seeking ma ) ) and have seen and sampled soo many different styles . On top of that, it's only really been through a series of discussions with maers from other styles and my research and research networking with those who know ( ie :- chinese army friends / chinese police / mag editors/ authors / ex and current title holders/ folks who've trained title holders/ shifus/ long time students/ gongfu playing chinese history majors  etc etc , that I have come to realise how original and irreplacebale alot of ninjutsus techs really are comparitively. I still like my aikido ( and quietly even prefer their rolls ) but when it comes to my art of choice for grappling, I'm going with ninjutsu and I can't see my passion for it changing for a long time to come. 

Btw : has anyone here been to Hatsumi senseis dojo in Japan and how did you find that??? If I get a taker I might take it to a new thread.

Cheers

Blooming Lotus


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 11, 2004)

Hattori Hanzo, Yagyu and Ura-yagyu, Fujibayashi Masatake, the Toda family...there are way too many high-ranking historical bushi that had received "ninja training" or served as such for that theory to be believable.
The easiest comparison with modern armed forces would be if you looked at a soldier who had been trained as a demolitions expert, pointman, sniper etc. It's something he's trained to do when it's required of him, but that doesn't affect his social status in civilian life in any way.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

Budwai!!! ( incorrect!!!) That is such a crock!!! In the Asias over the time when these arts were being conceived people were extremly poor and their living was directly related to their martial skills, with hopes that they would be good enough to join the armed forces and bring honour and prosperity to their families. Of course the organisations and their members grewin wealth after that!! I said it was effective . The only reason I mention my army friends, is because you'd think if anyone wants to / needs to / has to know who's using what art and some solid facts surrounding it , including politically , they are the ones!



Btw : Is that you taking all my freakin rep points??? 

That's okay..... have them!!! won't miss what I never had I guess  ( rolleyes@you ) 

BL


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Budwai!!! ( incorrect!!!) That is such a crock!!! In the Asias over the time when these arts were being conceived people were extremly poor and their living was directly related to their martial skills, with hopes that they would be good enough to join the armed forces and bring honour and prosperity to their families.



Perhaps it would be best if you provided some sort of reference to this very gross generalization. Especially as it relates to Japan instead of treating all of Asia as being the same. 

Nimravus has listed several well- placed families that were known for being involved in ninjutsu. I think you need to provide just as solid a source instead of making statements with such certainty.

And please, try to keep calm. Using terms like "that is such a crock" is frowned upon here.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

apology for the frankness and believe what you like. He still didn't give a link nor a time / date, so to me that statement is practically useless.



BL

don't look now pot but I think you're black aswell
from kettle


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> apology for the frankness and believe what you like. He still didn't give a link nor a time / date, so to me that statement is practically useless.



Well, if you want a link then go ahead and look at this article on the Koga ryu to kind of see a little about the background of many of the people that would later be known as ninja. The author has listed his sources at the bottom and is rather well known as someone willing to debate history.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

on chinese origins http://www.ninjutsu.com/Kukishinden%20RyuNL.shtml

on the dubious nature of "historical tracings" http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html 
Also speaks of the samurai class distintiction as superior to rest of population.

from article above 

Quote [ "Ninjutsu, for the most part, was the fighting skills and methods practiced by a small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts, and only rarely by warriors belonging to the samurai elite"  ] 


Bl


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2004)

So now we have dueling resources. Much better than just stating things as if they were facts. We can look at the sources and what they are based on and judge from there.

And I do happen to think that the Koga ryu article and the sources it lists are a bit better than the ones you listed. After all, the 53 families of the Koga ryu were clearly on a level to negotiate with the head of Omi province. It is kind of hard to imagine those 53 as being a, "small number of families who belonged to the lower classes and outcasts".  

I would guess that you feel differently.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

the koga one is better right??? He says himself as the basis of his whole first arguement that in fact , you're pronouncing and spelling it wrong because it's koka and obviously those calling it koga, just don't know what they're on about. ( rolleyes@ the guys accuracy....I mean idiodcy!)


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## Don Roley (Nov 11, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> the koga one is better right??? He says himself as the basis of his whole first arguement that in fact , you're pronouncing and spelling it wrong because it's koka and obviously those calling it koga, just don't know what they're on about. ( rolleyes@ the guys accuracy....I mean idiodcy!)



Did you bother to check out the name of the guy who wrote it? :wink2: 

But if you will engage me in a calm debate, I ask you to look at the fact that the 53 families of Koga/ Kohka delt directly with the lord of Omi provence. They also had family names- which is not a sign of low status. This is just a historical fact backed up by numerous sources and records.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 11, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> on chinese origins http://www.ninjutsu.com/Kukishinden%20RyuNL.shtml
> 
> on the dubious nature of "historical tracings" http://www.ninpo.org/ninpohistory/ninpohistory.html
> Also speaks of the samurai class distintiction as superior to rest of population.
> ...


Anytime ninjutsu is said to have anything with physical techniques to do, there is reason to get suspicious.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 11, 2004)

I don't even know what to say that so I 'm just going to go over to the corner and have a quiet chuckle


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## Satt (Nov 11, 2004)

Well, I studied Kenpo, Shootfighting, and Shotkan and I liked them, but they didn't inspire me. I liked Kenpo the best out of those three. Anyway, I saw a Discovery Channel special one day that had SKH in it and he seemed really interesting so I checked out his website. Ever since I ordered my first videos there is no turning back. I have never felt so inspired in my life!!! I hope to one day open up a dojo in my hometown when I am good enough. I want to spread the goodness!!! Ninjustu is DEFINATELY the art for me also just because it is so practical.


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## Kizaru (Nov 12, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> However, I am fairly sure I can find a link to support the theory that at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai. Leave it with me and I'll post it when I have enough time to search and read through it all.


Followed by...


			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Hattori Hanzo, Yagyu and Ura-yagyu, Fujibayashi Masatake, the Toda family...there are way too many high-ranking historical bushi that had received "ninja training" or served as such for that theory to be believable.


I believe what Nimravus was getting at was that it's a well known fact that Hattori Hanzo was a "ninja" from a well known Samurai family, and served the shogun. Also, it's been documented that Yagyu Muneyoshi's wife was a woman from Iga believed to have come from a "ninja" family. Yagyu Muneyoshi being from the samurai class, would not have "married down" to a "different social standing". After Yagyu Shinkage ryu became patronized by the Tokugawa shogunate, rumors of "Yagyu ninja" became popular. In addition, Toda Shinryuken Masamitsu, the man whom Takamatsu Toshitsugu learned Togakure ryu, Kumogakure ryu and Gyokkshin ryu ninjutsu from was from a samurai family that had stretched back for generations. We can find documentation in the Budo ryuha daijiten (an encyclopedia of Japanese martial arts systems) that Asayama Ichiden ryu (a system used by samurai) at one point had a ninjutsu school within it, and the Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu (another samurai lineage) still has ninjutsu taught within it's cabal (although they do _*not* _refer to themselves as a "ninja" tradition, as it's not their focus). In short, we can find evidence that at multiple points in time, there were samurai "moonlighting" as "ninja". 

"Blooming Lotus" wrote something to the effect of "at some point close to conception, they were absolutely in a different social standing to samurai". 
What I'd like to ask here is, which ryu's conception are we talking about? In Iga there were more than 70 families, in Koga about 50 families. There's evidence that there were ryu active out of Buddhists temples as well, for example Haguro ryu out of Dewa Sanzan in Yamagata prefecture. If we look at the oral tradition of Togakure ryu, Nishina Daisuke, a samurai fighting under Kiso Yoshinaka fled to Togakure mountain after being on the losing side of a battle against the Taira clan. After fleeing, this samurai laid down the foundation for what would later come to be known as "Togakure ryu". Nishina Daisuke passed the foundation onto a samurai named Shima Kosanata no Minamoto no Kanesda who in turn passed it on to Togakure Goro who formalized it into "Togakure ryu". 

This is why many of us who train in this tradition have abadoned the notion that it was _only_ practiced by farmers defending their crops.

If I've made any mistakes here, please bring them to my attention.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

okay.how's this.....



The link I provided already alluded to the fact that some samurai were actually ninjas out of school and some some ninjas were actually samurai off duty. Those however are generally speaking the exception and not the standard.  ..........  So really, for the ones who weren't moonlighting samurai, I was stil right anyway.but to be honest...  I don't care, it just means I can't talk to you about it is all 


:flame:
later 
BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 12, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> The link I provided already alluded to the fact that some samurai were actually ninjas out of school and some some ninjas were actually samurai off duty. Those however are generally speaking the exception and not the standard. ..........


Nope. It was the other way around. 

Don't forget that as a rice peasant in 16th century Japan you probably had other, more mundane things to worry about than perfecting your taijutsu.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

Oh.dong.like protecting their families and preserving enough food ( as opposed to paying it as tax to the samurai) to keep everyone alive...... yap......no doubt...... hmmmmm.crazy that _they_ should be involved in conceiving such a thing as an art to protect themselves ......

And now you're telling us that despite the fact ninjutsu was created to combat samarai and the hardships their raiding brought about, most ninjutsu practitioners were actually samurai in masquerade ??? What a nice bunch of guys ha


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 12, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> And now you're telling us that despite the fact ninjutsu was created to combat samarai and the hardships their raiding brought about, most ninjutsu practitioners were actually samurai in masquerade ??? What a nice bunch of guys ha


Ninjutsu, like jujutsu, kenjutsu, yarijutsu etc., was designed by bushi to make life miserable for other bushi...

And WHAT raiding???


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

I am really tired Nimravas and because I want to post some links to support my statements, I am going to come back to this one tommorow.

cheers


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## heretic888 (Nov 12, 2004)

Just to clarify, Blooming Lotus, when you say "ninja" are you specifically referring to the Iga/Koga groups and their offshoots (like Kishu ryu)??

Or, do you just mean anyone in the Sengoku Jidai that was sneaky??


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

Okay, to be frank I'm kind of still in han yu ( chinese language) mode and these names you're rolling out are all french ( or Japanese as the case may be ) to me, regardless of whether I've heard them before or not. I'm about to go a search and confirm  mission though to find something corroborative, so leave it with me.

Blooming Lotus

btw : bushi is a generic term for the warrior class of fuedal / pre-fuedal Japan anyway so I can't see your point. Actually I do, but if consider that an opposing art to combat the attackers art is making them miserable..I guess I do and would have to agree. Silly point though. ( well duuh) 

How about we start with "what is a ryu" find it here http://www.koryubooks.com/library/wmuromoto3.html


ninjutsu was extremely discreet by definition for so long anyway, that regarless of what either of find or have read, I'm not sure how accurate any of it'd even be!! Past records are dodgy and there are in all systems conflicting information, nice to know what everyone is saying anyway. 


Q. if shogun is a term for army general / warrior leader............. why does it keep comming up unless its context of that same shogun being reputedly responsible for conceiving any particular branch??


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

How do you equate samurai and ninjutsu and try to pass it off as halves of one system anyway??? One's bujutsu ( battlefield art) and the budo ( personal art)???:idunno: Obviously in context of my own perspective described above sequitous to logic that the budo would be conceived by the raidee to combat the "battelfeild" system the bujutsu player made of their villages. Budong your anlge.

for a clear explaination on the difference between budo bujutsu pls see here http://members.lycos.co.uk/fight/judo/judo.html

BL


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

great Iga link conccurring my statements of being seperate to and in social - subserviancy and opposition to  samurai http://home.iprimus.com.au/erinsaraci/Info/iga.html

cheers

BL


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 12, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Just to clarify, Blooming Lotus, when you say "ninja" are you specifically referring to the Iga/Koga groups and their offshoots (like Kishu ryu)??
> 
> Or, do you just mean anyone in the Sengoku Jidai that was sneaky??


budong  ( don't understand) !!! WE _are_ talking about an art of intellectual stragegy here and if "sneaky" is quantified by having the best strategy to ensure your and your familes lives and conituance, I guess so. Sneaky is irrelevant, these folks were fighting for their lives ...you do what what works. .. and it did......


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 12, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> How do you equate samurai and ninjutsu and try to pass it off as halves of one system anyway???


So now "samurai" is it's own system. Brilliant.




			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> One's bujutsu ( battlefield art) and the budo ( personal art)???:idunno:


Ninjutsu IS a bujutsu!!



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Obviously in context of my own perspective described above sequitous to logic that the budo would be conceived by the raidee to combat the "battelfeild" system the bujutsu player made of their villages.


There raiding you speak of never took place!!



			
				Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> btw : bushi is a generic term for the warrior class of fuedal / pre-fuedal Japan anyway so I can't see your point. Actually I do, but if consider that an opposing art to combat the attackers art is making them miserable..I guess I do and would have to agree. Silly point though.


Ninja were samurai/bushi AND the other way around. The martial arts of Japan were created by the same. 

Either you're trolling or you're still living in the 80's. None of the alternatives are helpful here.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 12, 2004)

*Moderator Note. 
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## Bester (Nov 12, 2004)

Nim, 
Ninjutsu is an interesting art, with a lot of misconceptions, misunderstandings, and misinterpretations, especially by those who rely on the Geocities or Tripodized regurgitations of the fictions of the warped minds of Hollywood writers, greedy gaijin, baka academics, and other wakawakashii bakabakashii types.

Just place them on ignore and let them wonder why their little flashybombs don't make them invisible.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

Samurai were army class and the early ninja came from opposition of that. I don't care anyway...I hate chasing tails so I'm done. ( unl;ess of course _you_ have links correlating your story from someone other than the first writer you posted from.  Fair's fair, I gave you several)



Cheers



Blooming Lotus


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Proof, please?


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> great Iga link conccurring my statements of being seperate to and in social - subserviancy and opposition to  samurai http://home.iprimus.com.au/erinsaraci/Info/iga.html



I know this might be a shock, Miss Lotus, but that website is not even vaguely concerned with Japanese history. If you will got to the homepage, you will notice that its creator identifies it all as works of fiction that he created.

Apparently, its his/her adaptation of some videogame or roleplaying game called "Fantasy Powers League". No history, I'm afraid.


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> budong  ( don't understand) !!! WE _are_ talking about an art of intellectual stragegy here and if "sneaky" is quantified by having the best strategy to ensure your and your familes lives and conituance, I guess so. Sneaky is irrelevant, these folks were fighting for their lives ...you do what what works. .. and it did......



Very simply, Miss Lotus, if you are indeed referring to "ninja" as a catchall phrase for anyone that was sneaky or stealthy in feudal Japan, then you will find a very LARGE range of individuals fit this bill --- kuge, buke, bonge, and hinin. 

Such methods were not unique to any particular social class. In fact, such methods are not unique to any particular _culture_.

Takeda Shingen and his rival Kenshin Uesugi, for example, both made widespread use of spies, scouts, and guerilla fighters --- none of whom were necessarily connected to the "ninja" clans of Iga and Koga. The most common use of "covert soldiers" were the _kusa_ ("grass") --- spear-holding ashigaru trained to hide in long strands of grass to spy on enemy armies and ambush advance ranks.

If you are referring to "ninja" as referring to special groups like the Iga-shu and Koga-shu, however, then you will find your range of individuals to be considerably lessened.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> Takeda Shingen and his rival Kenshin Uesugi, for example, both made widespread use of spies, scouts, and guerilla fighters --- none of whom were necessarily connected to the "ninja" clans of Iga and Koga.


Actually I seem to recall that was the case, at least with the Takeda clan. Check up the kunoichi Chiyome Mochizuki and her ties to Koga ryu, for instance.
Let's not forget that the Iga ninja spread all over Japan following the invasion by Nobunaga. Furthermore, Gyokushin ryu was according to some sources frequently taught in the Kishu province.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google.  pls feel free to research for yourself.  The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest.  You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt.  At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.

BL


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Bet it broke your heart to learn that balisong knives, sai and nunchaku weren't ninja weapons too, huh?


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## Bester (Nov 13, 2004)

Do not confuse the baka with facts. Some people like to believe everything they read on the internet.

Me, I will stick with the Atlantian Ninja origin myself.

It explains so much.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google. pls feel free to research for yourself. The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest. You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt. At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.
> 
> BL


 Here are some other sources, including the words of Grandmaster Hatsumi. The accounts are slightly different than the account on the Videogame link you provided. (BTW, that was Freedom Force, a fun little superhero game for PC) 

http://www.mbdojo.com/togakureryu.htm

http://www.mbdojo.com/iga.htm

http://www.bujinkan.co.za/H1.html


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Thanks for the links, but keep in mind that the last text comes from "History and Tradition" which was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes.


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> Actually I seem to recall that was the case, at least with the Takeda clan. Check up the kunoichi Chiyome Mochizuki and her ties to Koga ryu, for instance.



Meh, I stand _partially_ corrected. 

You will note that I commented on the two warlords making widespread use of unconventional forces that did not _necessarily_ tie to the Iga and Koga groups. Mochizuki Chiyome clearly did, but several others did not.

The point being that "shadow" warfare was rather common in the Sengoku Jidai, and if you're going to call everyone that did that a "ninja" then you've got a whole range of individuals in that category. Some samurai, and some not.



			
				Nimravus said:
			
		

> Let's not forget that the Iga ninja spread all over Japan following the invasion by Nobunaga.



If I recall correctly, Nobunaga didn't invade Iga until around 1585, no??


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## heretic888 (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> that link I provided and the other are available to yourselves via our friend google.  pls feel free to research for yourself.  The Iga link just says the same as others you'll find there, so be my guest.  You still haven't given anything back yourself bar your first ( which I consider dodgy an without academic credibilty) attempt.  At least you're aware there are other views and reports, so my work here is done.



Miss Lotus, speaking from personal experience, internet resources very rarely make for sound research --- especially when "ninja" are involved. Most of the "ninja histories" floating around online are simply regurgitated editions of stuff that Hayes wrote in the 1980's.

Which, by the way, he has pretty much redacted in his later works. In _Ninja Vol. 5: Lore of the Shinobi Warrior_, for example, Hayes spends an entire chapter debunking popular "ninja myths" (some of which he perpetuated in his earlier work) --- including the "ninja were persecuted peasants", the "ninja-to was a cheap straight sword with a square tsuba", the "shinobi shozoku was a historical ninja suit", and so on.

You would be far better off reading some of Stephen Turnbull's stuff on the subject. Hatsumi-soke's books are indispensable, as well (particularly for an "insider's" viewpoint on the subject).


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

well from my experience researching shaolin gongfu and buddhism for my phd , then travelling there to confirm it all from the horses mouth,  I 've got to beg to differ. Btw : hello.....we are _on_ the internet ourselves this moment  . Pls see corresponding threads for other links.


cheers boys

Blooming Lotus


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> well from my experience researching shaolin gongfu and buddhism for my phd , then travelling there to confirm it all from the horses mouth, I 've got to beg to differ. Btw : hello.....we are _on_ the internet ourselves this moment  . Pls see corresponding threads for other links.
> 
> 
> cheers boys
> ...


 Im confused by this statement, maybe I am misreading you... are you saying hearing firsthand about Kung Fu and Buhddism in China are more reliable sources on the history of the Ninja that those that come from the "Last Ninja" Grandmaster living in Japan?  How odd.


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

More likely than not. What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.

btw on last ninja gm , I hope we're not talking about who I think we are and frankly, no doubt he knows , but what ever you did or didn't get off him nor others nor how it's been interperated and transgressed is hardly the point.  Moooving on.


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## Cryozombie (Nov 13, 2004)

Ok.

 Sure.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

heretic888 said:
			
		

> The point being that "shadow" warfare was rather common in the Sengoku Jidai, and if you're going to call everyone that did that a "ninja" then you've got a whole range of individuals in that category. Some samurai, and some not.


Agreed.



			
				heretic888 said:
			
		

> If I recall correctly, Nobunaga didn't invade Iga until around 1585, no??


Something along those lines, though I seem to recall it being two or three years earlier...gonna have to check up that. But what about Hakuunsai Tozawa and the Hakuun ryu, way before "the golden age" of ninja for instance...?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Nov 13, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> More likely than not. What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.


Go to Japan and try to do the same thing in this case...


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## Blooming Lotus (Nov 13, 2004)

Believe me, Hatsumi Sensei and I have a date down the track, but first some med study and a belt to steal.

BL


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> What I am saying is that the internet as a source of credible information is perfectly sound, as I proved to myself ( and many others at home and abroad) when I went to China to confirm and clarify it all.



The problem, Miss Lotus, is not that there are no sound sources to be found on the internet. Rather, as Don pointed out in another thread, that you can find internet sources to support practically _anything_. In essence, it is a matter of winnowing the wheat from the chaff. If you will.

For example, online articles that do not cite their sources should immediately send out alarms to one's inner scientist.

Point is, there's good stuff online and there's crapola online. Just tossing links in our direction doesn't prove anything one way or the other. Not anymore than tossing a book title proves anything, unless you actually discuss the content of the book and the sources for said content.

F'shizzle.  :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 15, 2004)

Blooming Lotus said:
			
		

> Believe me, Hatsumi Sensei and I have a date down the track, but first some med study and a belt to steal.
> 
> BL


  I thought Hatsumi was already married?


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## heretic888 (Nov 15, 2004)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> But what about Hakuunsai Tozawa and the Hakuun ryu, way before "the golden age" of ninja for instance...?



*shrugs* I'm not entirely certain one could classify Tozawa Hakuunsai as a "ninja" in the conventional sense of the word, nor do I know anything about the purported content of Hakuun ryu Ninjutsu. Then again, this could be said of Togakure Daisuke and the Togakure ryu of the time, as well. The "ninja" from Iga and Koga don't seem to have become active as such until the latter 1400's.

Of course, this _is_ unverified oral history we're talking about. The entire notion that Iga Heinabe Yasukiyo, for example, was a retainer to Minamoto Yoritomo and granted governorship of Iga as a reward is rather dubious (since, from what I've read, Iga was a shouen to the Todaiji during most of the Heian Jidai).

*shrugs again* So, who knows, really??  :idunno:


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