# Learning Latin, how?



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 17, 2011)

The idea of learning dead languages has always interested me.  Of them, Latin seems to be the 'easiest' given the larger amount of information available compared to Celt or Aramaic for example. My goal is to be able to actually converse in the language, not just do word-substitution translation. It's a project my wife and I have discussed doing together.

My initial instinct was to grab Latin for Dummies. I've had good luck with the 'Dummies' series in the past, so thought I'd give it a go.  Unfortunately, most of the reviews I've read give it poor marks for real use.

A search on Amazon turned up the Rosetta Stone system.  It's pricey. A number of good reviews as well, but looking at the criticism makes me wary of investing that much money.

My next item was "Wheelock's Latin" which seems to be one of the main texts the last 50 or so years.  Several critical comments however make me hesitate. The main criticism seems to be that true fluid mastery isn't possible with Wheelock's, as it is more geared towards the translator not the speaker. 

Other suggested readings come from Grote and Adler and a few others.
Then there's this link 
http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~wcd/Latin.htm

So, anyone ever attempt to learn Latin and get anywhere?
I'm bloody well lost here.


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## Brother John (Jan 17, 2011)

http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/latin/beginners/

try that....
interesting ideas, but not very exhaustive it seems.

Your Brother
John


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## Big Don (Jan 17, 2011)

Good luck with that Bob. I took a semester of Latin in High School, but, it was the same time I started dating and discovered beer, so, all I remember is one word: Sugate, (You suck). A lot of the books I read have Latin phrases and the internet isn't so reliable sometimes...


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 17, 2011)

Isn't there a college or institute nearby which has evening / weekend courses in languages?
Getting started is much easier if you can find a teacher and a class with prepared material.


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## Carol (Jan 17, 2011)

Try googling around to find a church that celebrates Mass in Latin.  I found at least one in Buffalo that says they hold one, although I'm not sure how current the information is.

http://www.the-latinmass.com/id137.html

Call an organizer or the priest and say you are interested in learning Latin on a budget, and see if they where they can point you.  If your curiosity is such that you want to actually check out the Latin Mass, you would be welcome to do so as a visitor, just don't receive communion.

EDIT: I agree with the criticisms of Rosetta Stone.  Not worth the money.


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## K-man (Jan 17, 2011)

Yes.  Many years ago I spent 3 years trying to learn Latin. It probably was of some benefit to understanding the English language but try as I might I haven't found a single Roman to converse with!

As to the best method? I would probably try for school text books.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 17, 2011)

What you could also do is to search for a place where they have courses (community college or something else) and then find out which course material they are using. The course will be in English about learning Latin. While it might take a bit longer, you could use that to learn on your own, with the option of getting help from time to time from someone who speaks the language. Once you have someone to get you started, you can do a lot by yourself.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 17, 2011)

I read and speak Latin. IMNSHO, the _best_ way to learn it (or any other language) is to take classes where you have access to an instructor who can answer questions, correct pronunciation, engage in conversation, etc. Lots of colleges and universities offer classes in classical languages, including some community colleges. You might want to check out their websites and/or call and ask them for a course catalogue. Even if you don't want to take classes for credit they will often let people audit courses, which you would have to pay for but often at a reduced rate. Alternately, you could just try to contact the instructor directly and ask them if you could just sit in ("off the books" so to speak). 

Good luck in your endeavor. Latin is a great language to learn and actually quite helpful in coming to a better understanding of many modern languages. It's also priceless in reading classical literature, philosophy, theology, etc. in the original.

Pax,

Chris


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 17, 2011)

The courses are also often seen in used bookstores, on eBay, and in thrift stores for a fraction of the price of them when new.  I just passed up a very nice Rosetta Stone set of VHS tapes on learning Japanese.  Might still go back for them.  Yeah, I'd have to dump VHS to DVD, but I can do that, actually.

Also check the public library, they often have DVD, VHS, and CD-ROM available for check out.  Also check the local uni, they sometimes have such things and you may be eligible to check out from them (some allow local residents to get library cards, some don't).


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 17, 2011)

Oh, and check out podcasts.  You'd be amazed at what's out there.  I've been fiddling around with Esperanto for a long time; I'm not doing too well, but it's a perpetual desire.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 17, 2011)

Much appreciated. Thank you.


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## granfire (Jan 17, 2011)

Having had Latin in school, sticking it out for 5 years, I wonder why you would want to learn Latin. 

The key to learning it is to gram grammar, conjugation and vocabulary, but mostly grammar. 
Sentence build is horrible on prose, and if you are icky on the grammar, poetry will sink you.

But reading Caesar is a bit of fun, the man was lying through his tooth 

In school we joked we would go to Latin America for language trips. I have since learned though that Rumanian is very close to latin. A Rumanian lady told me, I have to take her word for it.


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 17, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Oh, and check out podcasts.  You'd be amazed at what's out there.  I've been fiddling around with Esperanto for a long time; I'm not doing too well, but it's a perpetual desire.



I've thought about Esperanto when I was younger, but didn't really see the point.
I am learning Japanese because of Japan, which is a good enough reason I guess.
And being able to read Latin opens up a gigantic amount of historical texts and understanding of the origin of many words. Fair enough.

But what is the point of learning Esperanto? I am not trolling, but since it was developed by language nerds, has no history and is not adopted by anyone, it seems rather doomed from the start.


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## granfire (Jan 17, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I've thought about Esperanto when I was younger, but didn't really see the point.
> I am learning Japanese because of Japan, which is a good enough reason I guess.
> And being able to read Latin opens up a gigantic amount of historical texts and understanding of the origin of many words. Fair enough.
> 
> But what is the point of learning Esperanto? I am not trolling, but since it was developed by language nerds, has no history and is not adopted by anyone, it seems rather doomed from the start.




As they joked about the lingustically challenged Chancellor Kohl: He learning Esperanto, people will be amazed when he goes there for vacation...

However, the language has a few devote fans world wide that can actually converse with each other. 

But then again, there are probably more people fluent in Clingon or Elfish


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## Sukerkin (Jan 17, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> But what is the point of learning Esperanto? I am not trolling, but since it was developed by language nerds, has no history and is not adopted by anyone, it seems rather doomed from the start.


 
For a time it was taught in schools over here - I did it for two years alongside French and German - really confusing as it contained elements of the other two! .

There is still an Esperanto Society as far as I know but, in order to solve the problem of a common tongue, we cunning Anglophones, as ever, just made sure everyone else learned to speak a language all civilised people can understand ... other than American's of course  :lol:.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 17, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> But what is the point of learning Esperanto? I am not trolling, but since it was developed by language nerds, has no history and is not adopted by anyone, it seems rather doomed from the start.


 
Bill must just want to chat with George Soros 

Personally, I'd invest ime in learning one of Tolkien's elvish tongues before Esperanto. They're more useful to me 

Pax,

Chris


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## Tez3 (Jan 17, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> For a time it was taught in schools over here - I did it for two years alongside French and German - really confusing as it contained elements of the other two! .
> 
> There is still an Esperanto Society as far as I know but, in order to solve the problem of a common tongue, we cunning Anglophones, as ever, just made sure everyone else learned to speak a language all civilised people can understand ... other than American's of course  :lol:.


 
The Provençal language is akin to Latin. The French haters may be interested to know that they don't regard themselves as French mostly because of the suffering the French have caused them ie the Cathars etc. Even today the French look down their noses at both the Provençal and the Bretons who speak a language similiar enough to Cornish and Welsh to be understood by both.
http://www.orbilat.com/Languages/Occitan/Occitan.html


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## granfire (Jan 17, 2011)

chrispillertkd said:


> Bill must just want to chat with George Soros
> 
> *Personally, I'd invest ime in learning one of Tolkien's elvish tongues before Esperanto. They're more useful to me*
> 
> ...



LOL, I rest my case.


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## jks9199 (Jan 17, 2011)

Carol said:


> Try googling around to find a church that celebrates Mass in Latin.  I found at least one in Buffalo that says they hold one, although I'm not sure how current the information is.
> 
> http://www.the-latinmass.com/id137.html
> 
> ...


You're welcome to attend any Mass, so long as you're willing to be respectful.  You may not receive Communion unless you are Catholic, and properly disposed.   Simply remain quietly in your seat during Communion, or in some parishes, you may go up, with your arms crossed in front of your chest, and receive a blessing in lieu of Communion.  If you sit towards the back (always the most crowded section of a church...), you'll be able to see what the common practice is.

That said -- it's very possible that the Mass will be said by rote rather than through understanding of Latin, and this applies to priests and laity alike.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 17, 2011)

The few Catholic masses I've attended the last few years were all in English. I did ask a priest recently if they ever did masses in Latin any more and he said rarely as most people couldn't follow them.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 17, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The few Catholic masses I've attended the last few years were all in English. I did ask a priest recently if they ever did masses in Latin any more and he said rarely as most people couldn't follow them.


 
Most masses offered in the ordinary form are done entirely in English (which is not actually what the Vatican wants). If you attend mass celebrated in the extraordinary form (the "Tridentine Rite") it will be entirely in Latin. High Masses will include Gregorian chant and possibly hymns. Low Masses will not.

As for people understanding Latin or not, with all due respect to the priest you spoke with (and many that I have spoken to myself) it's not like people are incapable of reading a Missal. "Latin on one page and English on the facing page? What? How will I ever crack this code!" 

I mean, really.

Pax (That's "peace" for all you Latin illiterates! See how hard that was?),

Chris


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## jks9199 (Jan 17, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The few Catholic masses I've attended the last few years were all in English. I did ask a priest recently if they ever did masses in Latin any more and he said rarely as most people couldn't follow them.


Some parishes have Latin Masses regularly (often once a month).  A few parishes or special churches, like the Basilica of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception, or Franciscan Monastery of the Holy Land may have them more regularly.

The simple truth is that the movement of the language of the Mass has been more toward the vernacular language so that the members of the congregation can actively and intelligently participate, rather than simply be spectators responding by rote.


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## granfire (Jan 17, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The few Catholic masses I've attended the last few years were all in English. I did ask a priest recently if they ever did masses in Latin any more and he said rarely as most people couldn't follow them.



They never could follow them, that was the whole point!


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 17, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> I've thought about Esperanto when I was younger, but didn't really see the point.



There doesn't always have to be a point.  I just like the idea, is all.


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## Big Don (Jan 17, 2011)

Bill Mattocks said:


> There doesn't always have to be a point.  I just like the idea, is all.


That is true for so many things.


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## Blade96 (Jan 18, 2011)

Here's some help for Bob:

Avoid me, because I have only studied 4 years of Russian. :uhyeah:


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## Bruno@MT (Jan 18, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> The few Catholic masses I've attended the last few years were all in English. I did ask a priest recently if they ever did masses in Latin any more and he said rarely as most people couldn't follow them.



Those masses are usually held by smaller congregations which reject the 2nd vatican council. The reasons are religious in nature. It's not because the laity understands Latin. I assume the clergy would understand what they are saying.


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## Big Don (Jan 18, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> Here's some help for Bob:
> 
> Avoid me, because I have only studied 4 years of Russian. :uhyeah:


My little sister took 4 years of Spanish in High School augmented by a Spanish speaking boyfriend, followed by 4 years of Spanish in college and a Spanish speaking husband. She has perfected the dumb, uncomprehending look when people speak Spanish in front of her, then when she answers in perfect Spanish, she blows their minds. Everyone needs a hobby...


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## granfire (Jan 18, 2011)

Big Don said:


> My little sister took 4 years of Spanish in High School augmented by a Spanish speaking boyfriend, followed by 4 years of Spanish in college and a Spanish speaking husband. She has perfected the dumb, uncomprehending look when people speak Spanish in front of her, then when she answers in perfect Spanish, she blows their minds. Everyone needs a hobby...



LOL

but helpful sometimes.


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 18, 2011)

Blade96 said:


> Here's some help for Bob:
> 
> Avoid me, because I have only studied 4 years of Russian. :uhyeah:


 
Russian was the worst. But it helped me figure out Latin in that it was a cased language like Latin.

Pax,

Chris


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## chrispillertkd (Jan 18, 2011)

Bruno@MT said:


> Those masses are usually held by smaller congregations which reject the 2nd vatican council. The reasons are religious in nature. It's not because the laity understands Latin. I assume the clergy would understand what they are saying.


 
Yes, quite a few of the people who attend the Tridentine Mass do so at chapels or churches run by the Society of St. Pius X, or the Society of St. Pius V whicgh are groups which reject the validity of Vatican II and, somewhat ironically, end up rejecting the authority of the pope in favor of their own judgements about doctrinal and non-doctrinal matters. A growing number of Catholics are availing themselves of validly celebrated Masses in the extraordinary form (the pre-Vatican II Latin Mass) through groups which are in full communion with the Church such as the Priestly Fraternity of St. Peter. 

That all being said, the Catholics I have met who attend the older rite of the Mass all have at least a passing understanding of ecclesial Latin. And my parents have both told me it was uch the same back in the 50's. Go figure. As I said before, it's not rocket surgery to open up a Latin-English Missal :lol: 

The whole criticism of people not understanding anything during the Mass back in the day is mostly a bogey man conjured up by people who should've known better. One doesn't need to be a latinist to understand the ordinary of the Mass (those parts that remain the same in every liturgy). Heck, I could prayerfully participate in prayers such as the Agnus Dei, the Credo, the Pater Noster, the Sanctur, the Gloria, and the Kyrie (in Greek) before I ever took a single class in Latin. As for the propers, you can follow along in the Missal for those and still have a very prayerful experience. 

The people sitting in the pews today listening to Mass in English are, in general, woefully catechized and have little understanding of what's actually occuring when the priest confects the Eucharist. Celebrating the Mass in English has a less than stellar record when it comes to the people actually understanding the faith. In a religion which holds to _lex orandi, lex credendi_ that is a _huge_ probelm.   

Pax,

Chris


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## Sukerkin (Jan 18, 2011)

Big Don said:


> My little sister took 4 years of Spanish in High School augmented by a Spanish speaking boyfriend, followed by 4 years of Spanish in college and a Spanish speaking husband. She has perfected the dumb, uncomprehending look when people speak Spanish in front of her, then when she answers in perfect Spanish, she blows their minds. Everyone needs a hobby...


 

:chuckles:  Whilst I did not have the degree of fluency your sister clearly has, I used to get the same startled response with Welsh in times gone by ... especially if they were in the middle of saying something derogatory about the English :lol:.


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## Blade96 (Jan 18, 2011)

Big Don said:


> My little sister took 4 years of Spanish in High School augmented by a Spanish speaking boyfriend, followed by 4 years of Spanish in college and a Spanish speaking husband. She has perfected the dumb, uncomprehending look when people speak Spanish in front of her, then when she answers in perfect Spanish, she blows their minds. Everyone needs a hobby...



Hahaha.  thats cute.....



chrispillertkd said:


> Russian was the worst. But it helped me figure out Latin in that it was a cased language like Latin.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



cases are annoying....pretty much everything cased in russian even counting.


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