# good bye to wing chun....



## devasta (Apr 26, 2011)

after 2 months of training I decided  to stop wing chun and do mui thai instead. Most drills done in wing chun class I found it to be boring and slow paced.  Essentially, I want to train in a matial art style that will help me stay in shape and build lean muscles but what it seems like is most of students in my class or wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut....I find that very demotivating.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 26, 2011)

you could be right, or you could be wrong.  All I can say is, after two months you just do not know enough to know anything at all.  and now you never will.


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## devasta (Apr 26, 2011)

Flying Crane said:


> you could be right, or you could be wrong. All I can say is, after two months you just do not know enough to know anything at all. and now you never will.


 
Dont get me wrong...it is a great well thought out fight art. Unfortunately the style is not to my preference and requires too much time.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 26, 2011)

devasta said:


> after 2 months of training I decided to stop wing chun and do mui thai instead. Most drills done in wing chun class I found it to be boring and slow paced. Essentially, I want to train in a matial art style that will help me stay in shape and build lean muscles but what it seems like is most of students in my class or wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut....I find that very demotivating.


 
Only 2 months and already quiting eh?  Oh well, must be traning in the wrong WC school.  My students work up a sweat in class every night.  I never hear them complain.  

Oh, BTW, martial arts teach you how to defend yourself.  Martial sports are for getting in shape.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 26, 2011)

devasta said:


> Dont get me wrong...it is a great well thought out fight art. Unfortunately the style is not to my preference and requires too much time.


 
Anything worth doing takes time.

Wing Chun is not a style, it's a system.  The art you study is a system , the way you use it or express it is the style.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 26, 2011)

Good luck.


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## Steve (Apr 26, 2011)

Why so defensive?  The OP wasn't insulting WC.  I've seen threads on these boards, and vids on YT where high ranking WC guys allege that muscle development and strength training can actually get in the way.  If he's looking for lean muscle development, he'll definitely be in good shape training Muay Thai.  

And he'll learn some skills that will help him defend himself, too.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2011)

devasta said:


> after 2 months of training I decided to stop wing chun and do mui thai instead. Most drills done in wing chun class I found it to be boring and slow paced. Essentially, I want to train in a matial art style that will help me stay in shape and build lean muscles but what it seems like is most of students in my class or wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut....I find that very demotivating.


 

There are those here who you really do not want to see this post....oh...never mind...too late 


Do what you want and what you feel is best for you but I do not think I would judge Wing Chun based on one school and two months and I do not quite understand the need to post this in the Wing Chun section where it is likely to cause the most :flame:


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> Why so defensive? The OP wasn't insulting WC. I've seen threads on these boards, and vids on YT where high ranking WC guys allege that muscle development and strength training can actually get in the way. If he's looking for lean muscle development, he'll definitely be in good shape training Muay Thai.
> 
> And he'll learn some skills that will help him defend himself, too.


 
I think it was this bit generalization



devasta said:


> it seems like is most of students in my class or *wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut*....I find that very demotivating.


 
That generated the response and is likely to get more


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## Twin Fist (Apr 26, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Oh, BTW, martial arts teach you how to defend yourself.  Martial sports are for getting in shape.




this


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## yak sao (Apr 26, 2011)

It's always bothered me to see MA reduced to an exercise program.
especially one, the caliber of WC.
It will get you and keep you in shape, but you have to meet it half way and put down the twinkies.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 26, 2011)

yak sao said:


> It's always bothered me to see MA reduced to an exercise program.
> especially one, the caliber of WC.
> It will get you and keep you in shape, but you have to meet it half way and put down the twinkies.


 

I agree.  You are not there to get in shape, you are there to learn a skill.  The way you train should keep you in shape also, but the first priority is to learn the skill.

I also do not like to see martial arts reduced to simply an exercise program.  If that's what you want, go join a gym and take some taebo classes.

Maybe muay thai will be a better match for him.  Or maybe not.  that's the thing.  After two months he just really doesn't know.

It's possible that that particular school was not a good match for him.  All these things are possible.  But two months is a very very short period of time.


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## Eric_H (Apr 26, 2011)

> wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut



This has proven true at most of the WC schools i have been part of or visited. CMA doesn't have conditioning training the same way as many other arts. There are exceptions, but not many.



> Oh, BTW, martial arts teach you how to defend yourself. Martial sports are for getting in shape.



Logical fallacy, both draw from the same skillsets to a different end. 

1 on 1 fighting with higher skillsets but limited by rules vs 1 vs X with no rules and typically lower skillsets.



> After two months he just really doesn't know.



Only if the teacher sucked. If training doesn't provide immediate feedback its wasted time - hell i knew karate wasnt for me in the first 30 minutes


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## geezer (Apr 26, 2011)

devasta said:


> after 2 months of training I decided to stop wing chun and do mui thai instead. Most drills done in wing chun class I found it to be boring and slow paced. Essentially, I want to train in a matial art style that will help me stay in shape and build lean muscles but what it seems like is most of students in my class or wing chun practicioners are out of shape or has a gut....I find that very demotivating.


 
WC schools vary, but as Eric H posted, often what you say about conditioning is true. I don't do that much conditioning in my classes. I do work-out hard outside of class though! Still, Muay Thai is a great self-defense art, martial sport, and way to keep in shape.... especially for you young-uns who don't mind roughin' it up. It's great that you found an art that you love doing. Train hard and do great things. And, who knows, maybe you'll give WC another try in 30 or 40 years.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> There are exceptions, but not many.


 
non-sport sanda :EG:

Xingyiquan :EG:

Some styles of Baguazhang

Long Fist

White Crane

Taijiquan

All have conditioning if trained traditionally... just not weight lifting and cardio like you see in your average gym

Example non-sports sanda throw 500 licks per leg per day, thow 100s of palm strikes, elbow and other strikes against a tree. But I will say it also has a plethora of push ups and situps.... but then my taijiquan sifu does leg rasies and other exercises too. 

My Wing Chun sifu use to work the hell out of us when I first went there however the last time i went he only worked on Wing Chun and said the rest was up to us to do on our own. But he is in pretty damn good shape


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## Eric_H (Apr 26, 2011)

As you noted - The conditioning is typically different Xue.

Iron palm is technically conditioning, but it isn't going to get you lookin' good for the ladies anytime soon  

And I would reckon that if we went to the majority of schools for the styles you listed - they would not be training to the degree which would grant muscle and cardio benefit the same as what you get in most typical sport based arts.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 26, 2011)

Eric_H said:


> As you noted - The conditioning is typically different Xue.
> 
> Iron palm is technically conditioning, but it isn't going to get you lookin' good for the ladies anytime soon
> 
> And I would reckon that if we went to the majority of schools for the styles you listed - they would not be training to the degree which would grant muscle and cardio benefit the same as what you get in most typical sport based arts.


 
True but power lifting won't get you 



Eric_H said:


> lookin' good for the ladies.


 
As much or as fast as Body buiding either. You may be able to lift a bus but you're just not ripped enough 

However Non-sport Sanda might, but I will admit it is the exception and not the rule. That damn near killed me but then it was the version for the military and police.  And I dare anyone to go find a sifu that really knows it and will actually train you. It is not easy to find.

But with that said I will admit if your goal is "Buff" look to sports MAs over your typical TMA.


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## mook jong man (Apr 26, 2011)

I really don't think you should be depending on a self defence system such as Wing Chun with it's minimalist movements to keep you looking buffed.
The movements are too efficient and economical to provide the type of look that the poster is probably looking for.

Wing Chun training typically develops a V- shaped back from all the punching and Chi Sau , but it's not going to give you the type of "Gun's" women swoon over.

Vigorous and protracted Chi Sau sparring will result in weight loss , but it can take a few years before you can get to the point of doing it for a while without feeling like your arms are going to drop off your shoulders.

I do believe in doing some bodyweight exercises mixed in with pad work for the last 15 -20 mins of my lesson , but that is based on the particular needs of the student.

One of my guys does his fitness stuff with a personal trainer and just comes to me to learn skill in technique.
Another older guy likes to practice Wing Chun with a bit of conditioning stuff at the end , so I accomodate that as well.

But I believe it really comes down to the individual to look after his fitness in his own time , Wing Chun is first and foremost a self defence system based on skill.
Whether you have a gut or a sixpack is totally irrelevant in the execution of Wing Chun skill.


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## Vajramusti (Apr 26, 2011)

devasta said:


> after 2 months of training I decided to stop wing chun and do mui thai instead.
> -------------------------------------------------------
> Good luck and good bye


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## bully (Apr 27, 2011)

I can understand where the OP is coming from, it all depends on what school/training you do. If I was young and fit again now, I would want somewhere that tested me.

When I was actually young and fit the WC school I trained at pushed us to our limits. We did all the stuff that _some_ WC schools now dont do and take flak for not doing. It also depends on the practioner, if you feel that the training isnt hard enough do your own outside of the class.

Muay Thai is a great art and one I practised for 18 months before my body literally could not take the training anymore. It is certainly something to have in your arsenal and will teach you about conditioning and fitness. Muay Thai is not an art for an older MA whereas WC is, if the OP comes back I would be interested to see how old he/she is.

Again I can see that some feel that WC (and CMA in general) do not offer the workout that Muay Thai etc do. Good luck to the OP too, any MA is good for the soul and maybe, just maybe he/she may come back to WC later on when they are too old/injured to do the more physically demanding MA.


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## Domino (Apr 27, 2011)

Can train as hard or soft as you like and I can see good results from it. Never done a full class of fitness yet, I see these exercises as an obvious suggestion to including in your personal development @ home


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 27, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> Oh, BTW, martial arts teach you how to defend yourself. Martial sports are for getting in shape.


 


Twin Fist said:


> this


 
What I stated was not derogitory, nor was I being defensive.  If the guy wants to quit WC, it's okay, let him quit.  But with only 2 months, that's not enough time to pass any kind of judgement, be it WC, BJJ, Muay Thai, or tiddly winks.

And the comment concerning martial art and martial sport, what is the big deal?  What's wrong with calling something a martial sport?  It still has martial in it, meaning from or for combat.  I use the term martial sport so people will understand they can also get in shape doing it.  Wing Chun, Kali, Silat, etc, I consider arts and are taught that way.   You shouldn't expect to get in shape doing them.  Muay Thai, BJJ, Kenpo or Kickboxing systems, to me, are considered martial sport, and go a long way in helping you get in shape.  Nothing wrong with that is there?   

Some of you guys just need to chill a bit and don't get so defensive yourself.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 27, 2011)

@ OP :
If your dedication lasts for about two months,you will quit with Muay Thai much sooner.


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## WC_lun (Apr 27, 2011)

You have to know what you are looking for to get what you want out of any martial ars school.  If you want to increase your physical skills with hard work outs, the Wing Chun probably isn't for you.  Hey, not biggie.  We all train for different reasons.  

Good Wing Chun teaches a person skills to end a fight very quickly, thus avoiding the abiity of physical skills to influence the fight.  If you aren't taking care of your opponents very quickly, to where stamina becomes an issue, then you are doing something outside of proper Wing Chun concepts.  That doesn't mean that physical skills aren't important or that a Wing Chunner doesn't work on increasing attribues.  Most guys I know do work on physial skills.  However there is a ton of diference between training for a sport where strength and stamnia are needed, and slf-defense type training where the focus lies elsewhere.

To the OP, I hope you find what you are looking for!


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## devasta (Apr 27, 2011)

I am going with most of the replies concerning the school's teaching method. I've been skeptical during the 2months duration mainly because the emphasis is on forms, working the horse ....shifting.... yawn..boring.  

I asked questions and yes it is the core foundation which requires alot of patience and committment.  Honestly I would say Wing Chun may be for me if I have more time for it but when the school requres students to go 3-5xs a week to actually learn the art will not work with my current situation.  

Even a student who's been training for almost 2yrs at the school tells me that he still feels skeptical whether what he'd learned can be applied to any real street fight and I was like wtf? So sum it up yes I think it's the school.


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## yak sao (Apr 27, 2011)

devasta said:


> I am going with most of the replies concerning the school's teaching method. I've been skeptical during the 2months duration mainly because the emphasis is on *forms, working the horse ....shifting*.... yawn..boring.
> 
> I asked questions and yes it is the core foundation which requires alot of patience and committment. Honestly I would say Wing Chun may be for me if I have more time for it but when the school requres students to go 3-5xs a week to actually learn the art will not work with my current situation.
> 
> Even a student who's been training for almost 2yrs at the school tells me that he still feels skeptical whether what he'd learned can be applied to any real street fight and I was like wtf? So sum it up yes I think it's the school.


 
Those are necessary evils .
 As for whether or not WC is street effective, it sounds like you may have run across a lemon WC school, sad to say that there are more than a few of those out there.
I don't know your area, but check out Wing Tsun or Wing Tzun. They are very much into focusing on street effectiveness, the Wing Tzun is very big on conditioning too.


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## mook jong man (Apr 27, 2011)

devasta said:


> I am going with most of the replies concerning the school's teaching method. I've been skeptical during the 2months duration mainly because the emphasis is on forms, working the horse ....shifting.... yawn..boring.
> 
> I asked questions and yes it is the core foundation which requires alot of patience and committment.  Honestly I would say Wing Chun may be for me if I have more time for it but when the school requres students to go 3-5xs a week to actually learn the art will not work with my current situation.
> 
> Even a student who's been training for almost 2yrs at the school tells me that he still feels skeptical whether what he'd learned can be applied to any real street fight and I was like wtf? So sum it up yes I think it's the school.



Is there a website or any video clips so that we can have a better idea of the type of training that is conducted there?

After two years that student should have achieved a decent level of speed ,force , and reflex.

He should also be reasonably confident of defending himself in most situations .
That is , if he has been trained properly , and by the sounds of it , that hasn't happened.


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## devasta (Apr 27, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> Is there a website or any video clips so that we can have a better idea of the type of training that is conducted there?
> 
> After two years that student should have achieved a decent level of speed ,force , and reflex.
> 
> ...


 
http://wingchunnyc.com/


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## altbus1 (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm happy that my sifu sticks to the program it's an addiction that I'll hopefully never will lose.
I also train for strength at home and do some additional running 2 times a week. But for me my Wing Chun training is for learning the art not for conditioning the body.

Greetz


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 27, 2011)

devasta said:


> http://wingchunnyc.com/


 
I believe that is Allen Lee Sifu's Wing Chun.  He is a very reputable WC sifu in the U.S.  He trained with Lok Yiu Sifu and then was a private student to Yip Man.  When he came to the states, he also trained with Duncan Leung, another private student of Yip Man's with very, VERY good WC.  Lee Sifu has many years WC experience.  But, he's an old timer, training the old ways of Wing Chun, like standing in YJKYM for hours doing forms.  Or just doing the SNT for 6 months before letting you do anything else.  I have never met him, but his WC is supposed to be pretty good.


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## mook jong man (Apr 27, 2011)

I shouldn't think there would be a problem if it's coming from the Lok Yiu lineage , that's a pretty fine pedigree.

But I have to concur with Zepedawingchun , it sounds as if it is being taught in what I would call the traditional Hong Kong method .

Which involves a lot of work on the stance , pivoting and SLT practice.
Nothing wrong with that , but it is probably not a good fit for young westerners in this age of instant gratification.

The other method I would say is a more technique based type of training geared towards common self defence scenarios , this is the type of training my late Sifu taught when he came to Australia because he knew that westerners would find the traditional training hard.

Later on when the student became more experienced they would be exposed more and more to the traditional Hong Kong type method.

Both teaching methods work , and a lot further down the track they both converge to produce a competant practitioner.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 27, 2011)

I'm not speaking strictly about Wing Chun here, but I'll say that in my opinion the traditional method is better, tho as MJM points out it may be difficult for young Westerners to wrap their heads around it and accept that kind of training.

If you hope to fix and solidify the foundation later down the road, you'll have lots and lots of problems that you will need to un-learn.  It's very frustrating and you may feel like you wasted a lot of years with the wrong priority in training.

The kenpo training I had was very technique-focused, self-defense scenarios type stuff.  Later when I began training Traditional Tibetan White Crane, I discovered how important that foundation is, and how nothing really works very well without it.  That was lacking in my kenpo and I regret in some ways the time spent on that path.  But it certainly gave me a certain perspective to recognize the difference when I finally got the traditional training that I needed.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 27, 2011)

Not many patient people out there these days,that's for sure. My school is Wing Tzun based (Emin Boztepe),it's more of a modern kind of training (like some of the people said above),yet i'm also into Traditional things at times. (I'm into Wing Chun as a whole so my opinion here should not count)..
If you really want to do it hard core at start,go find yourself a Wing Tsun/Wing Tzun/EBMAS school. 
On the other hand,you don't know what you're missing in Master Lee's school,you only need patience and skill/powa' will come.


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## Steve (Apr 27, 2011)

I'll just say this.  There are a lot of people who say two things closely associated.  First, that people aren't patient and then something about martial sports to include BJJ or Muay Thai.  I just want to make sure that you guys understand BJJ practitioners are among the most patient martial artists around.  It takes months to even get your head above water, and up to ten or more years to become an expert.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 27, 2011)

stevebjj said:


> I'll just say this. There are a lot of people who say two things closely associated. First, that people aren't patient and then something about martial sports to include BJJ or Muay Thai. I just want to make sure that you guys understand BJJ practitioners are among the most patient martial artists around. It takes months to even get your head above water, and up to ten or more years to become an expert.


 
Oh come on... we all know BJJ guys are just trying to be as awsome and attractive as us old school JJJ guys 

Seriously though I personally have a lot of respect for BJJ if for no other reason they are one of the few out there that does not give belts away. You do the work, you train hard and you get the belt that I respect. As for Muay Thai; if I were younger and less beat up I'd likely give it a try myself

But with that said I am likely TCMA to the core and I have a lot of respect for a good wing chun school too. Those guys play hard and it can hurt to train it and learning it does not come easy either


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## profesormental (Apr 28, 2011)

Greetings.

A few things.

First, I agree with stevebjj... it takes a lot of work to be even proficient at BJJ.

Second, I have found that heavy work on basics has to be done either in the beginning or at the advanced levels... yet it has to be done. That is a ceiling height that only sophistication of basic movements can bring. So jump this, and that is why for a while, only black belts in other styles came to my classes; my training is mostly basics and sophistication of basics skills. I correct the execution of basics more than anything else.

The pros of this training is that you get a super powerful foundation, yet I warn my students that they will see the fruit of their labor after about 30 to 40 accumulated training hours. Consistently, after that amount of time, something starts clicking, and they start getting it.

Hope that helps.


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## mook jong man (Apr 28, 2011)

Just as an example of the kind of patience and mental fortitude that was required when they learned in the old days .

 Tsui Seung Ting once remarked that for the first year under Yip Man all they did was Sil Lum Tao , and lessons didn't start to get interesting until after the first year.

TST also used to practice just pivoting for anything up to five hours , just let that sink in for a moment , could you imagine doing five hours of just pivoting.
I'd be hard pressed to veg out on the couch for five hours let alone do five hours of pivoting.


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## punisher73 (Apr 28, 2011)

As the old quote goes.  "there is no accounting for taste".

If a martial art doesn't meet what you are looking for, it won't matter if it is two months or two years.  The type of training he is looking for at this point in his life doesn't lie with his current school.

I don't see any problem acknowledging that and wanting to find something that will fit the bill.  That is why there are so many martial arts schools around, people have different focuses, different mental focuses and different physical capabilities.

The first martial art I tried was aikido.   Didn't like it at all.  The instructor was VERY knowledgable and could use it in a fight, but it just didn't fit with my personality and what I was looking for.  I have friends that train with that school now and they absolutely love it, because it was what they were looking for.

Think about it.  If you taught a traditional okinawan art and someone came to you looking for Olympic style TKD don't you think they could make up their mind fairly quickly that it wasn't what they were looking for?


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## Eric_H (Apr 28, 2011)

punisher73 said:


> As the old quote goes.  "there is no accounting for taste".
> 
> If a martial art doesn't meet what you are looking for, it won't matter if it is two months or two years.  The type of training he is looking for at this point in his life doesn't lie with his current school.
> 
> ...



Get out of here with that common sense, this is the internet for god's sake!


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## devasta (Apr 29, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> I believe that is Allen Lee Sifu's Wing Chun. He is a very reputable WC sifu in the U.S. He trained with Lok Yiu Sifu and then was a private student to Yip Man. When he came to the states, he also trained with Duncan Leung, another private student of Yip Man's with very, VERY good WC. Lee Sifu has many years WC experience. But, he's an old timer, training the old ways of Wing Chun, like standing in YJKYM for hours doing forms. Or just doing the SNT for 6 months before letting you do anything else. I have never met him, but his WC is supposed to be pretty good.


 
I have no doubts in regards to Sifu Lee's skills and credentials. However, the school's teaching method is somewhat disapointing since all students are not directly learing WC from Sifu himself but from other senior students.  Sifu Lee does teach privately but with additional set rate so it's out of the question for me since I don't think it's worth paying so much for tuition to learn something that I am just ok with.


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## PreservedK (Jul 2, 2011)

Hah ha, stopped doing MT last year to start back in WC. Now I am teaching my MT teacher WC! Unfortunately for me he is picking it up really fast practically knocked me ou a few times. Really these styles share some DNA and can fill in the deficiencies of each other. I will start up again with MT again soon....have to agree though that 2 months isn't enough time to know anything...


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## Haris Lamboo Faisal (Jul 3, 2011)

PreservedK said:


> Hah ha, stopped doing MT last year to start back in WC. Now I am teaching my MT teacher WC! Unfortunately for me he is picking it up really fast practically knocked me ou a few times. Really these styles share some DNA and can fill in the deficiencies of each other. I will start up again with MT again soon....have to agree though that 2 months isn't enough time to know anything...



Well , I read your OP and i know one thing ... if you're gonna do muay thai you better know that it is a commitment , infact anything that you intend to work on and get better at is a coomitment that requires alot of hard work and dedication ... though i don't understand how you think wing chun isn't physical , i've been practicing almost every day for a few months and i do pre workout conditioning , warm ups , the training itself and then the warm down of the specific muscles i used that day and i can tell you two things:

1. developing my stance into a structure that manifests the support of the entire body took me some conditioning and work.
2. it isn't the wing chun that isn't physical , its the way people practice it without doing proper warm ups and conditioning excercises , though i'm a just a beginner student at wing chun , what i learnt while training parkour is that when you take an art you make it your own , if you want it to be physical then make it physical!

Ofcourse i donot think muay thai is ineffective , infact muay thai training from the looks of it is pretty repetitive and physical ... i took a page out of the muay thai book though , before my excercises i do 3 sets of 15 pull ups into leg raises that is an excercise the muay thai guys are pretty fond of , good for the arms and core.


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## Vajramusti (Jul 3, 2011)

Good bye to wing chun.? I see no problem. Good bye.

joy chaudhuri


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