# Which is the best? Goju-Ryu, or Uechi-Ryu, or Kyokushin or what?



## Mider1985 (Jan 10, 2010)

I mean i see alot of smiliarities in the training of Goju and Uechi Ryu, Ive seen the Uechi Ryu masters use the iron body, basically striking there students in various area's all over making them strong enough to take a 2 by four to there body and not budging, they use the pots to make there fingers strong and they are able to break boards with them, They make there wrists strong and are able to break baseball bats.

Ive seen the same pots used in Goju, but ive also seen the stone hammer, and other weights, that go on the feet, neck, and hands. I dont know if Goju has the same iron body as Uechi though i havent seen it.

Kyokushin has iron body as well similar to Uechi 

So whats the diffrence between these arts? Which art is better for modern defense? Which makes the body stronger and which makes you faster?


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## 72ronin (Jan 18, 2010)

One cannot be better than the other.
      Which one would you prefer?

Your input into any chosen style will define your results.
"You get out what you put in".


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 19, 2010)

I agree with the above post.

Since they are all karate styles they will all appear similar in some ways. I believe that all three are effective in what they teach so it all comes down to what you are looking for. I'd recommend you look up their histories on wikipedia and see which ones sound the most interesting and then see which is closer to you.

I forgot who said this but it's a good quote. "There are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists."


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 19, 2010)

Isshin-Ryu.  Thank you very much.


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## Aiki Lee (Jan 20, 2010)

not that you have a bais or anything...


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2010)

forget them...Wado Ryu!!!

_"There are no superior martial arts, only superior martial artists."_ Well said that man!


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## dancingalone (Jan 20, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> forget them...Wado Ryu!!!



Only if you want a sissy bird on your badge.


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## Tez3 (Jan 20, 2010)

dancingalone said:


> Only if you want a sissy bird on your badge.


 
Remember Hitchcock's 'Birds'?  :ultracool


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## repz (Jan 22, 2010)

Kyokushin is more of a sport, I trained in it for a while I rarely did self defense training. But they bash each other good, using real world power (barely any protection, only to build up to no protection). They are strong and are used to live one on one encounters, its hard to go toe to toe with a kyokushin. Only problem, is that to safetly bash each other up they needed to give up face punching, which leaves a huge hole when it comes to applying it on the street since most people head hunt with fists (I still doubt they can take a kyokushin though). Kyokushin is a mix of goju and shotokan, though you only see it in the kata.

Goju has soft movements plsu hard (its in the name), parries and the like. Isshin Ryu I dont know much about. But both have strong self defense elements. Some train in point karate tournaments, which in a lot of ways is opposite to kyokushin tournaments (they rely on speed, evasion, avoiding blows (which means giving away a point), and none on conditoning (though they do conditioning exericises) since they are not allowed to hit full contact (rules vary though) while kyokushin is about taking the punishment, about power, and knocking the other out in the war of attrition).

I used to train in Kyokushin, but I'd prefer Goju Ryu.


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## seasoned (Jan 22, 2010)

In a life and death situation, whoever lands the first sufficient technique, with good follow up, wins. That be the best. Other then that, Okinawan GoJu, I would say.


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## Bill Mattocks (Jan 22, 2010)

Himura Kenshin said:


> not that you have a bais or anything...



Well, of course I have a bias!  When people ask which baseball team is the best, what do others answer?  Their team!  So yeah, Isshin-Ryu, baby.


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## Omar B (Jan 22, 2010)

There is no best, just what you like and can apply.


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## Mider1985 (Feb 9, 2010)

Is there an art that incorperates all the techniques of Goju, Kyokushin, and Uechi?


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## 72ronin (Feb 9, 2010)

Most Karate has similar techniques, its the Kata that differentiates styles.

Mas Oyama of Kyokushin can be seen performing an awesome Tensho on you-tube, this is a GoJu Kata also.
 I believe Kyokushin also practice Seiunchin, another GoJu Kata etc etc.

  I cannot comment on Uechi ryu but i think if it has a "ryu" in the name then generaly speaking it may be from Okinawa therefor also practice similar kata to GoJu..


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## David43515 (Feb 9, 2010)

72ronin said:


> I cannot comment on Uechi ryu but i think if it has a "ryu" in the name then generaly speaking it may be from Okinawa therefor also practice similar kata to GoJu..


 
"ryu" just means style, and it`s used in any Okinawan or Japanese martial art. It doesn`t mean Karate and it doesn`t mean the style is Okinawan.


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## Mider1985 (Feb 11, 2010)

72ronin said:


> Most Karate has similar techniques, its the Kata that differentiates styles.
> 
> Mas Oyama of Kyokushin can be seen performing an awesome Tensho on you-tube, this is a GoJu Kata also.
> I believe Kyokushin also practice Seiunchin, another GoJu Kata etc etc.
> ...


 
Uechi is pretty intense if your serious about training it...........the traditional training includes carrying 50 pound pots that you have to grip with your fingers, thus they make your fingers stronger, eventually your fingers can break boards, your toes can do the same, after years of training iron body your master will be able to break boards off you and strike you in the stomach, neck, and even the back of yoru legs


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## Laus (Jul 13, 2010)

Well I started out in Goju and am now in Kyokushin, not because I disliked anything about Goju but because I moved to a new city and there is no Goju here. We don't spend a lot of time on kata in Kyokushin. They are required to test, but once you know them you are expected to practice them on your own time, and we only do them in class once a week, if that. So I miss that about Goju, but fortunately my instructor lets me hang around after class to practice what I brought with me. On the other hand, I am really appreciating all the drilling and sparring. My fighting skills were something I always felt were seriously underpracticed in Goju. Pretty much the opposite of Kyokushin, sparring was something that was left by the wayside sometimes for weeks at a time at my Goju dojo. Interestingly we did a lot of Shotokan kata as well there, so Kyokushin is in many ways a natural fit for me, since it combines the two styles I am most familiar with and we practice kata from both. It wasn't intentional, but it feels as if I have progressed naturally into it.

I don't know much about Uechi Ryu, but as I understand it, it has similar origins to Goju, as both evolved in part out of Southern Chinese styles including Chinese Nanpa Shorin-ken, and then continued to develop in the Naha region of Okinawa, evidently evolving simultaneously but separately. The Naha connection explains why both practice many of the same Naha-descended kata anyways. I remember seeing Saifa and Seiunchin on a list of Uechi kata once, among others. Sanseiru probably as well. Speaking of that list I remember noticing that they practice kata that would I would consider standard to Shotokan as well (plus a whole lot I've never heard of). Perhaps Uechi has some connection to Itosu's lineage, as much of both Goju and Shotokan can be traced to him.


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## dancingalone (Jul 13, 2010)

Laus said:


> Speaking of that list I remember noticing that they practice kata that would I would consider standard to Shotokan as well (plus a whole lot I've never heard of). Perhaps Uechi has some connection to Itosu's lineage, as much of both Goju and Shotokan can be traced to him.




Which kata are you referring to?  Okinawan Goju-ryu (and Uechi-Ryu too) has no forms in common with Shotokan karate at all.  The 'canon' kata for Goju are Sanchin, Gekisai 1 & 2, Saifa, Seiunchin, Shishochin, Sanseiru, Seipai, Kururunfa, Seisan, and Suparinpei.   Uechi-Ryu has Sanchin, Kanshiwa, Kanshu, Seichin, Seisan, Seirui, Kanchin, and Sanseiru.

Out of those kata, Shotokan does perform a version of Seisan called Hangetsu, but it is quite different from the Goju version.  Some Japanese Goju schools have adopted variations of the Taikyoku kata that Gichin Funakoshi created.  If that what you are talking about?


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## Laus (Jul 13, 2010)

I didn't mean they are part of the Goju curriculum, just that we trained them at that dojo. The Sensei was keen on training kata foreign to the style and had a few at each rank that we were expected to learn, though they were not emphasized as strongly as the Goju core. He didn't always explain the lineage but he was clear they weren't Goju. Some of what I know about them comes from him, some from friends who train other styles and some from research.

Of the one's I've gotten the most explanation for, we did the Tekki forms, which I didn't know were done in Shotokan until I saw a Shotokan friend do one, recognized it and asked him about it. We called them Nihanshi. Also several Meikyo (which we called Rohai) and Hangetsu. We called Hangetstu _Shorinji_ Seisan, distinguishing it from the one practiced in Goju I suppose.

As to why we were doing them, from what I was taught, the Rohai and Nihanshi forms came from the Itosu lineage (taught by him if not originating with him), but while they ended up being carried into Shotokan they didn't carry into Goju, and the names they carry now are the Japanese ones given to them while Funakoshi was setting up shop in Japan. I'm unclear about the lineage of Hangetsu, though the _shorinji_ prefix is a clue I suppose. At any rate they were included in our curriculum for historical value as part of our lineage, a long with a few others.

As for some of both Goju and Shotokan kata being included in that Uechi ryu curriculum, they just happened to be on the list I happened to come across doing some research one day. I don't know the first thing about Uechi and wouldn't know what their core kata are, but I wondered if the ones I did recognize might have been on that list for the same reasons that my Goju Sensei taught us kata that were not technically Goju (if it was because they were part of their lineage).


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## dancingalone (Jul 13, 2010)

My own teacher also taught some Shuri forms in addition to Goju-ryu when you had advanced far enough.  He emphasized that the way you performed them are different from the way the core Goju forms were played however.


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## Grenadier (Jul 14, 2010)

Laus said:


> I didn't mean they are part of the Goju curriculum, just that we trained them at that dojo. The Sensei was keen on training kata foreign to the style and had a few at each rank that we were expected to learn, though they were not emphasized as strongly as the Goju core.



Not unusual at all.  Many instructors teach kata that aren't part of their "native" systems (although it may have been "native" to them before). 

The head of my old system was trained in the original Wado Ryu Karate system, directly under Ohtsuka Shihan, yet decided to re-incorporate much of the Shotokan system when he split off, incorporating many of the Shotokan kata at the advanced levels, in addition to adding a good bit of the Shotokan fundamentals.  It wasn't unusual to see someone learning Chinto and Seisan at the nidan level, but also working on Shotokan's Gojushiho series, Unsu, etc. later on.  

My old Shuri Ryu instructor sometimes taught the Goju Ryu version of Suparinpei to those interested in competition, along with a couple of Shotokan kata, with the emphasis that they are separate from the core kata of the Shuri Ryu system.  Those were more of icing on top of the cake.


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## punisher73 (Jul 14, 2010)

Laus said:


> As to why we were doing them, from what I was taught, the Rohai and Nihanshi forms came from the Itosu lineage (taught by him if not originating with him), but while they ended up being carried into Shotokan they didn't carry into Goju, and the names they carry now are the Japanese ones given to them while Funakoshi was setting up shop in Japan. I'm unclear about the lineage of Hangetsu, though the _shorinji_ prefix is a clue I suppose. At any rate they were included in our curriculum for historical value as part of our lineage, a long with a few others.
> 
> As for some of both Goju and Shotokan kata being included in that Uechi ryu curriculum, they just happened to be on the list I happened to come across doing some research one day. I don't know the first thing about Uechi and wouldn't know what their core kata are, but I wondered if the ones I did recognize might have been on that list for the same reasons that my Goju Sensei taught us kata that were not technically Goju (if it was because they were part of their lineage).


 
Hangetsu in Shotokan would be most similiar to the Shorin-Ryu styles.  As you can see when you compare Seisan from Uechi and Goju vs. Shorin they appear very different in some places.  

Itosu, was never a part of the Goju-Ryu lineage.  That started with Kanryo Higaonna (also spelled Higashionna).  He went to China and studied southern kung fu and then combined it with his knowledge of okinawan te.  He learned 4 core katas while in China, those were Sanchin, Seisan, Sanseiru, and Suparenpei.  His top two students both created their own styles (Kyoda created To'on Ryu and Miyagi created Goju-Ryu), they both have these 4 kata, but then they differ after that leading newer researchers to conclude that the additional katas in Goju-Ryu were created by Miyagi (outside of Gekisai and Tensho which are known to have been created by him.  Miyagi also took out the turns from Sanchin and changed the open hands of Sanchin to closed fists).

As to Uechi-Ryu, he too went to study in southern China and is reported to have learned from the same school as Higashionna.  He brought back 3 of the 4 core kata (not mastering Suparenpei) and then his son created 4 additional kata to bridge between the others.

Most okinawans were probably familiar with each other and probably had some knowledge of the kata and training methods, but Naha and Shuri based styles did not share an overlap of katas (the exception being Seisan, which has led some people to believe that is was an older kata indeginous to okinawa and changes were made and altered based on the founders training).

Their link comes in from Kenwa Mabuni.  Mabuni studied with both Itosu and Higashionna.  He added all of the katas of both methods into his approach so you have a VERY large kata repitoire in Shito-Ryu.


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## dancingalone (Jul 14, 2010)

> Miyagi also took out the turns from Sanchin and  changed the open hands of Sanchin to closed fists




A somewhat amusing anecdote:  I actually heard that Miyagi Sensei didn't remove the turns himself, but the students from that time did it as a mark of respect so that they would not be turning their backs on him and forcing him to move to view their technique from the front.

The Sanchin I learned retains the turns.


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## Laus (Jul 14, 2010)

> Itosu, was never a part of the Goju-Ryu lineage.


Yes that's right. Hmmm I'm not sure how those kata connected for us then. Evidently misunderstood what my Sensei was explaining about their lineage, my notes are from my kyu days and god knows the man could be obtuse. I suppose he might have included them for no other reason than that he could. 

Oh well...research time.


Both the Sanchin I learned in Goju and the one I've done in Kyokushin retain the turns. The Kyokushin one is identical up until the end, where are three (I think? might have been two) extra steps we didn't do in Goju, similar to those at the end of Tensho, with the hands pressing downward, befor going into the mawashi ukes.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Sep 9, 2011)

In my belief there's not better system in Karate, it all depends how well the individual uses that system, since every Martial Art system can have its strengths and weaknesses. I say that Kyokushin Karate is good for conditioning the body, but I think that this art is catered to young students more than older students. Goju-ryu focuses mainly on close quarter combat, same as Uechi-ryu, the self-defense moves based from the templates mostly demonstrates disabling one opponent. Close quarter combat is good to takedown one attacker, but not multiple attackers, using long range combat can be helpful for evading multiple attackers, that's what Goju-ryu and Uechi-ryu don't have. 

However, there is always room to grow in the training. Always learn from others to improve your skill.


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## Cyriacus (Sep 9, 2011)

I would not call any one of them "Best".
They all have Pros and Cons.

I do know that Kyokushin can churn out some seriously tough bastards, and that Uechi-Ryu can have some rather fast hands.


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## Tired_Yeti (Jul 3, 2016)

David43515 said:


> "ryu" just means style, and it`s used in any Okinawan or Japanese martial art. It doesn`t mean Karate and it doesn`t mean the style is Okinawan.



The islands of Okinawa are the RyuKyu Islands and prior to 1879, Okinawa was the RyuKyu kingdom and not part of Japan. So it makes sense  that "Ryu" in the name would make it appear Okinawan. Especially since the old Japanese arts (and Chinese arts) were not called Ryu.


Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


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## Chris Parker (Jul 4, 2016)

Tired_Yeti said:


> The islands of Okinawa are the RyuKyu Islands and prior to 1879, Okinawa was the RyuKyu kingdom and not part of Japan. So it makes sense  that "Ryu" in the name would make it appear Okinawan. Especially since the old Japanese arts (and Chinese arts) were not called Ryu.



Hmm… you've resurrected a 6 year old thread, and essentially been wrong in doing so.

No, the usage of "ryu" (流), also pronounced "nagashi", meaning "flow, stream, style" is not related to the "ryu" in Ryukyu (琉球)… the first character there is "ryu", and refers to lapis lazuli, a blue glass like rock… in any way other than the same pronunciation… so no, to make that assumption is to not understand the terms.

Secondly, while Chinese arts weren't referred to as "ryu" (why would they, it's a Japanese word…?), but Japanese arts absolutely were. In fact, the ryu methodology and approach for systematising a combative system dates back to at least the mid 15th Century, with "proto-ryu" existing before that. But, if you're going to say that "old Japanese arts were not called Ryu", then I might suggest looking into the following:

Tenshinsho Den Katori Shinto Ryu
Maniwa Nen-Ryu
Kashima Shin Ryu
Takenouchi Ryu
Araki Ryu
Hyoho Niten Ichi Ryu
Yagyu Shinkage Ryu
Kage Ryu
Chujo Ryu
Chikubajima Ryu
Chokugen Ryu
Jigen Ryu
Ippo Ryu
Kobori Ryu
Suio Ryu
Sosuishitsu Ryu
Hasegawa Eishin Ryu
Tendo Ryu
Kukishin Ryu
Takagi Ryu
Asayama Ichiden Ryu
Shingyoto Ryu
Toda-ha Buko Ryu
Kiraku Ryu
Tatsujin Ryu
and many, many, many, many, many, many more…

… or, just research Koryu itself. That might give you some different ideas.


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## Mr.Olympus (Mar 26, 2021)

Mider1985 said:


> I mean i see alot of smiliarities in the training of Goju and Uechi Ryu, Ive seen the Uechi Ryu masters use the iron body, basically striking there students in various area's all over making them strong enough to take a 2 by four to there body and not budging, they use the pots to make there fingers strong and they are able to break boards with them, They make there wrists strong and are able to break baseball bats.
> 
> Ive seen the same pots used in Goju, but ive also seen the stone hammer, and other weights, that go on the feet, neck, and hands. I dont know if Goju has the same iron body as Uechi though i havent seen it.
> 
> ...


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## Mr.Olympus (Mar 26, 2021)

Tired_Yeti said:


> The islands of Okinawa are the RyuKyu Islands and prior to 1879, Okinawa was the RyuKyu kingdom and not part of Japan. So it makes sense  that "Ryu" in the name would make it appear Okinawan. Especially since the old Japanese arts (and Chinese arts) were not called Ryu.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 6+ using Tapatalk


I am a instructor in Goju Ryu but I have studied the histories of the different arts and we were required to understand the differences and the histories. Uechi Ryu is like the sister art to Goju Ryu. The katas and techniques are nearly the same. Kyokushin is the combination of Goju Ryu and Shotokan created by Mas Oyama. Más Oyama firstly studied Shotokan and was a beast at it. He killed a man and vowed not to train until he me Gogen Yamaguchi an expert in Goju Ryu. It was when Más Oyama studied Goju Ryu he became nearly invincible. Goju Ryu focuses on body conditioning (iron body training) or (Chi-kung exercises) which train the body to deliver powerful strikes and to absorb blows from different angles. To me Goju Ryu is a complete system which incorporates many lethal applications for self defense. Goju Ryu was not developed for competition like Uechi Ryu. Their sole purpose is to maim and destroy a target. Goju is the balance of hard and soft. Using the hard parts to strike the soft parts or the soft parts to strike the hard parts. Like the palm a soft but hard part is used to strike the chin the hard body part. Goju Ryu uses the whole body as a weapon. Finger, hands, fists, head, elbows, knees, shin, hips, feet. Uechi Ryu is softer which employs fast strikes like a whip. In Goju it’s is the same but a true master balances both hard and soft with fluidity.


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## hoshin1600 (Mar 29, 2021)

Mr.Olympus said:


> I am a instructor in Goju Ryu but I have studied the histories of the different arts and we were required to understand the differences and the histories. Uechi Ryu is like the sister art to Goju Ryu. The katas and techniques are nearly the same. Kyokushin is the combination of Goju Ryu and Shotokan created by Mas Oyama. Más Oyama firstly studied Shotokan and was a beast at it. He killed a man and vowed not to train until he me Gogen Yamaguchi an expert in Goju Ryu. It was when Más Oyama studied Goju Ryu he became nearly invincible. Goju Ryu focuses on body conditioning (iron body training) or (Chi-kung exercises) which train the body to deliver powerful strikes and to absorb blows from different angles. To me Goju Ryu is a complete system which incorporates many lethal applications for self defense. Goju Ryu was not developed for competition like Uechi Ryu. Their sole purpose is to maim and destroy a target. Goju is the balance of hard and soft. Using the hard parts to strike the soft parts or the soft parts to strike the hard parts. Like the palm a soft but hard part is used to strike the chin the hard body part. Goju Ryu uses the whole body as a weapon. Finger, hands, fists, head, elbows, knees, shin, hips, feet. Uechi Ryu is softer which employs fast strikes like a whip. In Goju it’s is the same but a true master balances both hard and soft with fluidity.


I think your history is a little off. I don't think Oyama ever killed a man.
But my bigger issue is that Uechi is not for competition.  Perhaps you were thinking Shotokan?
And everything you said about Goju could also be said about Uechi. You are partially correct about Uechi being softer. I wouldn't call it softer, that's a mistaken impression. But rather it retains its Chinese influence and is less ridged than Goju. The dynamic tension in Uechi is more fluid. Where Goju is so tight guys could burst a blood vessel in their heads. So a true master of Uechi balances both the hard and the soft.


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## drop bear (Mar 30, 2021)

Mider1985 said:


> Is there an art that incorperates all the techniques of Goju, Kyokushin, and Uechi?



Kudo. 

Which also does legitimate takedowns and ground work.


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## isshinryuronin (Mar 30, 2021)

[QUOTE="Mr.Olympus, post: 2033055, member: 48449Goju Ryu was not developed for competition like Uechi Ryu[/QUOTE]

Can't imagine where you got this.  Uechi studied at the end of the 1800's - early 1900's.  Way before sport karate was a thing.  Karate had not even reached Japan at that time.   Uechi studied kung fu in China for over a decade, leading to a somewhat more fluid style than Goju (Miyagi hardened up the style a bit that he learned from Higashionna (who also spent much time in China.)

By the way, Uechi practiced Pangainoon.   I don't think it was known as "Uechiryu" till after his passing to honor him.  Back then, few would have thought to name a style or kata after themselves.  Uechiryu, like Hoshin 1600 mentioned, has many elements similar to Goju and their body conditioning can be very hardcore as well.  As a Gojuryu instructor you should have a more balanced view and appreciation of other Okinawan styles as did the old masters.


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## J. Pickard (Nov 23, 2021)

What you are looking for is Ameridote. Its the best of all and worst of none.


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## Gyakuto (Apr 7, 2022)

Clearly the best is Goechishinkai…Ryu😑


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## Buka (Apr 11, 2022)

Uechi, Goju, Kyokushin, yeah. They all hurt. 

Of course, if I didn't use my patented block with the face techniques it might have been a different story.


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## Anarax (Apr 18, 2022)

I've studied Goju-Ryu and Uechi-Ryu, but not Kyokushin. 

Goju-Ryu seemed to have a modern approach to training that Uechi-Ryu. We sparred a lot more in Goju and did a combination of both old and modern drills. The Uechi training methods seemed a little more antiquated that Goju, but had great physical conditioning. However, I think a lot of these differences is more of an indication of the instructors I studied under opposed to the styles themselves.


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## Mider (Apr 19, 2022)

Just my opinion...I may be wrong but 

Kyokushin is the youngest of the arts while Ueichi is the oldest.

look up different videos of how they train.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 19, 2022)

Mider said:


> Just my opinion...I may be wrong but
> 
> Kyokushin is the youngest of the arts while Ueichi is the oldest.
> 
> look up different videos of how they train.


I'm not 100% sure but I _think _you might be replying to your own old thread. Usernames pretty much the same as you.


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## Mider (Apr 19, 2022)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not 100% sure but I _think _you might be replying to your own old thread. Usernames pretty much the same as you.


Well damn...that was 2009


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## Judo boi (May 1, 2022)

kyokushin and it ain't even close lol


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## Judo boi (May 1, 2022)

Goju also is pretty special


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## Argus (May 14, 2022)

hoshin1600 said:


> I think your history is a little off. I don't think Oyama ever killed a man.
> But my bigger issue is that Uechi is not for competition.  Perhaps you were thinking Shotokan?
> And everything you said about Goju could also be said about Uechi. You are partially correct about Uechi being softer. I wouldn't call it softer, that's a mistaken impression. But rather it retains its Chinese influence and is less ridged than Goju. The dynamic tension in Uechi is more fluid. Where Goju is so tight guys could burst a blood vessel in their heads. So a true master of Uechi balances both the hard and the soft.



As someone who has a lot of experience in Chinese Martial Arts, which tend to be softer and more fluid, this is exactly what appeals to me about Uechi-ryu. I haven't actually trained Uechi-ryu yet, granted, but it's very apparent if you watch them train. Other styles of Karate tend to be quite rigid and tense, which really runs against the grain of my previous training.

As CMA's are a bit difficult to come by here, I'm actually considering training Uechi-Ryu. We'll see!


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