# How much strength or fitness for self defense



## lonecoyote (Aug 1, 2004)

How strong does one have to be in order to effectively deal with most attacks or self defense situations that may happen? How fit does one have to be? Because both matter, in my opinion. What is a good target to shoot for? I've been reading some requirements for police officers, military, and black belt fitness tests. Some require a benchpress of 100% bodyweight (these were on law enforcement sites), running a set distance, like a couple of miles  in a certain time, a certain number of pushups, situps or pullups. So what does everyone think? What is a good baseline of physical fitness to be ready to defend oneself? I think this thread could be useful because we all need goals to work towards, and some people might be able to give some ideas for things we could all work at.


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## MJS (Aug 2, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> How strong does one have to be in order to effectively deal with most attacks or self defense situations that may happen? How fit does one have to be? Because both matter, in my opinion. What is a good target to shoot for? I've been reading some requirements for police officers, military, and black belt fitness tests. Some require a benchpress of 100% bodyweight (these were on law enforcement sites), running a set distance, like a couple of miles  in a certain time, a certain number of pushups, situps or pullups. So what does everyone think? What is a good baseline of physical fitness to be ready to defend oneself? I think this thread could be useful because we all need goals to work towards, and some people might be able to give some ideas for things we could all work at.



Of course, the better shape you're in, the better you'll feel ovreall, and the better you'd be able to defend yourself.  I'd have to say that the most important thing is a good diet.  Thinking that you're going to be able to eat burgers everyday, and still maintain a good physical shape is a fantasy.  As for the weight routine....joining a gym or doing things at home is a good start.  Regardless of which route you take, starting off slow is important.

As for the police officers....yes, depending on age/sex, will determine the goals that you have to maintain.  Its a shame though, because many dont continue to keep it up after the academy. 

Mike


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## loki09789 (Aug 2, 2004)

I'd say go to the Presidential fitness stuff that you did in school and find the high end of the standards to shoot for.  There are also fitness standards for cardio, range of motion, strength to wt. ration, 'real' strength out put and local endurance to be considered that you can find on the internet that is based on 10 year windows of 20-29, 30-39 and such that helps you make realistic goals to aim for as well.  Starting out at 30 to improve your fitness but trying to reach fitness goals meant for a 19 year old is dangerous and unrealistic/discouraging if you don't have that age/development perspective in mind.  You can get there, it just might be a different/longer path because you have things to worry about that a 19 year old does not.

Generally speaking for MINIMUM strength goals:

Aim for being able to squat your body wt. 8-12 reps, bench press 50% of your body wt. 8-12 reps, 3-5 minimum pull ups (or 50% body wt for bent rows for 8-12 reps).

Cardio/Aerobic MINIMUM goals could be:

Maintaining 70% to 80% of your max heart rate (220 - your age = max heart rate x .70 AND THEN .80 = 'target heart rate/range') for a sustained 10 minutes would be a good goal.

REmember these are NOT how you train but WHAT you use to assess how you should train and where you are in the process of attaining your fitness goals.  Program/training prescriptions should be geared to accomplish short term goals that lead to overall/long term goals.

Check out www.Trainlikeapro.com for their fitness event/tests that they use for overall fitness evaluation.  This is a site designed for hockey and athletic hopefuls but the tests are good for everyone - if the standards are geared higher than 'general fitness'.


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## Disco (Aug 2, 2004)

As has been stated, to be strong and in shape greatly enhances one's overall long term abilities. For just practical self defense, one does not have to be in great shape. I know some will dispute this statement, but pause and reflect on just what people consider "in shape". We all have seen many instructors / black belts who were, lets says generous in the mid section. We all have seen and possibly trained with some, who were unable to run to the corner or who were so skinny that you were afraid to grab them cause they may break. Self defense actions to eliminate a threat, should fall into the maximum response rate of 30 seconds or under. We are not talking about sparring here and many people seem to intertwine both. Between the adrenaline dump and good technique, a totally out of shape person can be affective. As for getting into shape, loki's suggestion is a good starting point.


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## lonecoyote (Aug 5, 2004)

These are all thoughtful, well reasoned replies but I'd like to respectfully disagree just a little on a couple of points.  Disco, watch out judging peoples physical abilities or lack thereof by appearance. One doesn't have to be a bodybuilder to be in shape. In fact, weightlifting solely for appearance is kind of a specialized thing and isn't always a good overall indicator of being in shape. There are people who look like they are carrying a little extra around the middle who are amazing athletes just with a layer of fat on. On the other side, I had an instructor who weighed about about 125lbs and he was able to scoop, throw, and sweep me like I was a little kid, when I weighed about 250lbs, and it wasn't all technique, he was a very strong guy. No, sparring isn't fighting. Fighting is much harder. I agree we are talking about 30 seconds or less in most cases, but 30 seconds in a real no rules street fight going 100% feels like forever. It leaves you out of gas. Even if you train for the adrenaline dump you will still be gassed, shaky and out of breath. Technique is important but I don't think it is everything. I certainly respect your opinion, though, and I can see your points and think they are valid.


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 9, 2004)

Remember how you are physcologically as well, its all well and good training for being in shape but you need to be prepared for factors as stated by the other guys above for example the adrenline rush. You could have all the technique and muscle in the world but if you are not prepared phsycologically it can go all out the window because you need to be prepared and you need to think possible senerios through and how you would deal with them.
A good defence is an strong offence (dont know who said that, but fair play to however did, I think it was Sun Tuz the art of war author, not sure though!)

Training to the standard of police officiers is a good idea, look at the typical British Police Force standard of training, most officiers can deal with almost all situations and compared to the U.S police force (which alot of guys have huge biceps and muscles) they are one of the best police forces in the world, and most of the guys are only slightly above the average build for their age groups. 

Still some of thats my opinion, please dont take offence. Probably doesnt help you. Good luck anyway

Nick


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## Tgace (Aug 9, 2004)

Do any type of PT and do it regularly and you will be above the average. Stick to a program and keep trying to top your best and you will excel.


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## Andrew Green (Aug 9, 2004)

more then the other guy is always a good answer.

Trying to get by on minimum standards is always a bad idea.


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## shesulsa (Aug 9, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> We all have seen many instructors / black belts who were, lets says generous in the mid section.


 We should also remember that once a black belt, many begin to teach and when you spend your prior workout time teaching, your training becomes more of a challenge because you don't TAKE class twice or thrice per week, you TEACH class twice or thrice per week and your workout time has to come some time outside of that time period.  Some can't do it or simply just don't make the adjustment for whatever their reasons.


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## grappling_mandala (Aug 10, 2004)

Eat good. 

Train everyday.

Proceed at a pace you can maintain indefinately. 

Observe Fatigue

Cross train in cycles (i.e. cycling, swimming, jogging/walking, pool exercises, hill climbing, rock climbing, surfing, snowboarding, unicycling, juggling...) 

Continue to learn new things.... I get enthusiastic learning new things. Break bad habits by translating core body mechanics into different mediums of movement. That's why cross training in different activities is good for the martial artist... any full body experience he/she undertakes becomes a kinesthetic experience in full harmony with good martial art. Just because bloodshed imagery is not involved does not mean that movement has not occured in "the moment" that does apply to the physics of the human body. I.E. the relationship of rock climbing to using anatomical holds vs. gi work in Ne Waza

Learn as much as you can from the people who SHOW you skill. 

Dave


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## Denton Hines (Aug 10, 2004)

You also have to think about attitude. You can be in the best physical shape possible, and if you're mentally not ready to fully commit you could still fail.


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## Corporal Hicks (Aug 10, 2004)

Denton Hines said:
			
		

> You also have to think about attitude.
> 
> Good point!


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## Dr. Kenpo (Aug 10, 2004)

As I hit 50, being a school teacher as well, I work almost daily on fitness, strength. I don't wanna be a paper tiger. Even as a former coach, I set the example, I worked out right along with them just as I do now in Kenpo class.

I work on being as strong, and conditioned as best as I can.


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 10, 2004)

How much strength does it take to poke someone's eye out?  Because if I have to bench press my body weight, well, I'm S.O.L.


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## loki09789 (Aug 10, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Do any type of PT and do it regularly and you will be above the average. Stick to a program and keep trying to top your best and you will excel.


I think the goal for civilian self defense "fit to fight" training should be to be generally fit with a healthy balance of strength, endurance, athleticism (agility, power, speed...) and not get caught up in over emphasizing one area over another because the art or you 'think' that is what you need.  If, for example, you notice that your routine isn't training aerobic conditioning to a healthy level, then shift the focus there.  If you notice that you aren't really making the earth move on power shots, then shift the focus there.  But, through it all, try to maintain a balanced 'general' program.

When it comes to a real situation, I would say that all factors (regardless of what your list is) being equal, committed and tactically sound actions are going to be more of a factor than fitness in a self defense situation because you don't rely on any one category, but make the best plan by factoring in all those pieces and then do it.  If you over emphasis the body aspect of training you might miss out on the mental or 'street sense' side of the equation.


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> As has been stated, to be strong and in shape greatly enhances one's overall long term abilities. For just practical self defense, one does not have to be in great shape. I know some will dispute this statement, but pause and reflect on just what people consider "in shape". We all have seen many instructors / black belts who were, lets says generous in the mid section. We all have seen and possibly trained with some, who were unable to run to the corner or who were so skinny that you were afraid to grab them cause they may break. Self defense actions to eliminate a threat, should fall into the maximum response rate of 30 seconds or under. We are not talking about sparring here and many people seem to intertwine both. Between the adrenaline dump and good technique, a totally out of shape person can be affective. As for getting into shape, loki's suggestion is a good starting point.



I too have always looked at the minimal requirements to be able to effectively perform ANY self-defense maneuver by ANY one. I mean isn't that what Martial Arts (ANY style) is supposed to do? Be able to defeat/defend an oppoent/attacker without being very strong or having to use a lot of strength? I mean, hard styles like Karate don't require a lot of strength behind the punches and kicks do they? ... just enough to make them effective because there's usually a lot of them in the various forms? Soft styles like Hapikido (usually) don't require any strength at all except that which to hold the locks on whomever you're doing them on and that isn't too much at all? Or have I gotten it all wrong over all these years? That I need to BEEF up like Ah-nold and have the capcity to lift a rolls royce up by one finger? 
Sorry for the obvious sarcasm but being strong isn't the point (IMO) with MA/SD. Having strength is a plus and does help to put away an opponent/attacker quicker. But as it's been frequently pointed out, women in MA don't have the muscles like men do but in many cases they have the skills necessary not to need the strength to do what they must. A woman using Kenpo on an (real-life) assailant will hit as hard as she can and it will hurt and I know from personal experience that if one is hit often enough even hard as an (average) woman can hit it's gonna put them down.
Likewise with men... Myself, I am relatively strong for my size/weight (5' 10" 145+or-) though not as strong as some of my male counterparts at work, I can hold my own. If I were to get into a fight with the biggest of them (a 6' 3" 265 + tongan) he'd probably hit me hard enough to send me to the hospital...BUT he will know that he was in a fight because I will have hit him twice as many times (I got speed) with everything as I got... so technically it's an even fight... but I'd probably lose unless I get him good at the beginning. He's picked me up over his head with one arm during a (_thankfully_) playful moment at work.
Point I'm trying to (ramble on) to is that if he and I have the same street-fighting abilities/experience/knowledge... but my advantage over him is that he has no MA experience at all and I do... sooo, even if he's stronger... he'll have been in a fight and I have a good chance of coming out a victor or at least a draw.  
Honestly speaking with _this_ particular guy ...who is a good guy and a good friend I *wouldn't want * to find out. Someone on another MT thread said there's a fine line between bravery and stupidity.


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## Brother John (Aug 11, 2004)

Tgace said:
			
		

> Do any type of PT and do it regularly and you will be above the average. Stick to a program and keep trying to top your best and you will excel.


_*EXCELLENT reply!!!!!!!!*_
worth repeating!
...especially the part about 'stick to a program'. 
If you begin a REGULAR exercise program that includes:
1. *Flexibility.*  NOT just your legs. I've met hundreds of martial artists that thought they knew a good deal about becoming flexible...but only in ways that would raise their general kicking height! Work on full body ranges of motion. Pillates and Yoga are excellent places to begin and work much more than just flexibility.
2. *Good diet. * This takes some research and a good dose of common sense. Beyond that...it's a discipline, like anything else worthwhile.
3. *Aerobic exercise. * Hopefully your martial arts practice makes you get up and sweat some (ok, hopefully a LOT)...so that does count. Add about 30 minutes a day of aerobic exercise (jogging, speed walking, roller blading, bike riding, swimming laps, skipping rope, rowing machine, stair master, gliders, skiers...etc).
4. *Overall body strength.* This one takes a bit more 'doing' in the way of research. If you have access to a YMCA...GO!!! Get a personal trainer (they often have them on staff and will work with you for free) and let them know your needs/goals and hurdles. and/or go to a used book store and get a book on weight training....there's lots. Look up their most basic routine and follow it. Read and investigate more later to go beyond their basic routine.
5. *Rest and recouperation. * SLEEP! That's right, sleep. It's one of the best things you can do for your self, period. Lack of good sleep is responsible for more injuries and illnesses than you'd ever imagine. IF you are making demands on your body, you need more sleep than someone who doesn't. Your body only makes changes while you are sleeping. Lack of sleep interferes with respiration and it'll sooner hinder your strength gains than not eating will. It's often the most overlooked area of health and especially fitness, but believe me...there are no truly FIT people who are frequently sleep deprived!
OVERALL... consistancy is the first key.
second key? Progressive demand for adaptation. As your body adapts to the new levels of demand you are placing on it, it will need further challenge later. If you go to a certain point and stop, you are still better off than any sedentary person...but you'll get even GREATER benefits if you progressively increase the difficulty/intensity and duration of any of these.

Good luck.
Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Aug 11, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> I too have always looked at the minimal requirements to be able to effectively perform ANY self-defense maneuver by ANY one. I mean isn't that what Martial Arts (ANY style) is supposed to do? Be able to defeat/defend an oppoent/attacker without being very strong or having to use a lot of strength?


MaCaver-
 I know where you are coming from, I used to feel the same way. It's a very romantic view of the martial arts.


Good technique is PRIME!!!!!!! If your technical ability is excellent, it'll be more than sufficient....but being in good physical condition will still benefit a master, and a masters ability to execute the technique. 
Stronger muscles will help a punch/kick/block/throw/lock...etc. be stronger.
Stronger muscles also help to protect against injury.
Stronger muscles help as a buffer to protect against impact.

Just thinkin...
Your Brother
John


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## MA-Caver (Aug 11, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> MaCaver-
> I know where you are coming from, I used to feel the same way. It's a very romantic view of the martial arts.
> 
> 
> ...



 :asian: Yes, without a doubt I totally agree. Which is why at work (at a furniture store and handling furniture ...including but not limited to ... solid wood: china cabinets, king-head/footboards, armiours and etc.) I'm able to "hold my own" as far as handling these sometimes heavy pieces of my job. I do so for the purpose of keeping in as good as shape as possible and for the reasons pointed out in your (two) replies.  
I had a surprise opportunity to test out my techinque with a younger and smaller co-worker today as one of them grabbed me from behind and another who had planned on coming in low and hard at my gut... instinctive reaction was a kick to the groin area which stopped him and breaking the rear bear hug... it was all in fun for them at first but my reaction was spontaneous... nice to know I still got it. heh... the guy only got tapped in the groin fortuntately for him... I didn't even think about kicking just did. heh... it was done with little or no strength in that situation... if it were for real?? who knows :idunno: .. hopefully my tongan friend would've stepped in and helped out.


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## Marginal (Aug 11, 2004)

MACaver said:
			
		

> I too have always looked at the minimal requirements to be able to effectively perform ANY self-defense maneuver by ANY one. I mean isn't that what Martial Arts (ANY style) is supposed to do? Be able to defeat/defend an oppoent/attacker without being very strong or having to use a lot of strength? I mean, hard styles like Karate don't require a lot of strength behind the punches and kicks do they? ... just enough to make them effective because there's usually a lot of them in the various forms?



Strength definitely helps. If someone can walk through your technique while largely ignoring your best efforts simply because you're not really hurting them, you're in trouble. Are there arts out there that don't encourage conditioning?


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## Raewyn (Aug 11, 2004)

What if you trying to defend yourself against someone who is twice your size, even though you are not physcially stronger would'nt technique play a big factor??????


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## hardheadjarhead (Aug 11, 2004)

lonecoyote said:
			
		

> How strong does one have to be in order to effectively deal with most attacks or self defense situations that may happen? How fit does one have to be? Because both matter, in my opinion. What is a good target to shoot for? I've been reading some requirements for police officers, military, and black belt fitness tests. Some require a benchpress of 100% bodyweight (these were on law enforcement sites), running a set distance, like a couple of miles  in a certain time, a certain number of pushups, situps or pullups. So what does everyone think? What is a good baseline of physical fitness to be ready to defend oneself? I think this thread could be useful because we all need goals to work towards, and some people might be able to give some ideas for things we could all work at.




In a nutshell, be as fit as you can be.  

As far as the listed fitness requirements, Raisin, don't be too quick to compare yourself to cops and military people.  While the SEAL BUDS workout is awesome, some people out there will hurt themselves trying to hit that level of conditioning.

Each person on MT is going to have a different standard of fitness that they shoot for.  We are all different ages, have different chronic injuries, and have different body types.  Some of us here might never be able to bench 100% of their body weight.  I know a breast cancer survivor who will never see that.

MACaver...just shoot the Tongan.  With a shotgun.  Use slugs.  Then run in case that doesn't work.

Don't mess with huge mean Polynesians.  They're like two legged Cape Buffalos.


Regards,


Steve


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## Phoenix44 (Aug 11, 2004)

Raisin said:
			
		

> What if you trying to defend yourself against someone who is twice your size, even though you are not physcially stronger would'nt technique play a big factor??????


Yes, IMHO. For purely self-defensive purposes, you can also fight dirty. Unfortunately, we don't get to choose the size of an attacker.


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## Brother John (Aug 12, 2004)

Raisin said:
			
		

> What if you trying to defend yourself against someone who is twice your size, even though you are not physcially stronger would'nt technique play a big factor??????


YES...a Big factor. BUT you've gotta get MEAN, very mean, dirty and mean...and you must do so QUICKLY and not relent until FREE!
If you can't out muscle, you must use deception and ferocity. 

Me? Even if I can outmuscle, I still use deception and ferocity. 
Your Brother
John


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## Zujitsuka (Aug 12, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> YES...a Big factor. BUT you've gotta get MEAN, very mean, dirty and mean...and you must do so QUICKLY and not relent until FREE!
> If you can't out muscle, you must use deception and ferocity.
> 
> Me? Even if I can outmuscle, I still use deception and ferocity.
> ...



To add to what Brother John said, if you feel that an attack is unavoidable, hit first.

These two websites have a lot to say on these issues:

www.geoffthompson.com and www.senshido.com


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## SMP (Aug 15, 2004)

I believe that mental strength by far exceeds physical. Few of our highest ranked martial artests are as physicaly strong or flexible as many of our underbelts.  Physical ability definatly helps but is not core of overall ability.


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## bignick (Aug 19, 2004)

Disco said:
			
		

> We all have seen many instructors / black belts who were, lets says generous in the mid section. We all have seen and possibly trained with some, who were unable to run to the corner



like someone else said before...don't judge by appearances...there's a shodan at my jujutsu dojo...i'd say he's about 5'10'' and at least 300 lbs(know that for a fact cause i've weighed in with him before)...before he joined jujutsu he wrestled for 15 years...you think you could just roll him over...but he's fast, scary fast and he's one of the only people i know to use martial arts on the street for self-defense...he was mugged once in england...two people tried to get his wallet, one pulled a knife...he walked away with his cash...they didn't

as for how fit you need to be...my judo/jujutsu instructor likes to say everything you should do in a self-defense situation you should be able to do in a tuxedo, without ruining it(cause we're assuming it's rented...and who wants to pay for that)...the more in shape you are...the better...but for self-defense...it's not always "necessary"


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## Paul Genge (Aug 24, 2004)

The problem for martial artists that are not involved in competative styles is that there is no specific event to train towards. Their training regime has to be one that is a continuous cycle. Though weights are great for developing strength I personally do not like them. Having once traned with weights I found them to stiffen my movement and mentality. I think some of the problem is the training enviroment of gyms where it becomes easier to worry about how you look than weither you are improving at what you came there for. Also alot of weights exercises focus on isolating specific muscle groups instead of working the whole body as one.

My preference is for body weight exercises. Using these you can learn to work your body from positions that are contrary to the best position to excert your power. This helps replicate the sort of strength needed in fights where you often have to work from a position of disadvantage. I have a number of interesting versions of body weight exercises on my site http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk

As far as what you should aim for in personal fitness I believe it is better to aim to push yourself beyond your limits and not aim for lifting a certain weight for a specific number of reps. Things such as hill walking or running a long distance (preferably when you don't feel like it), completing a tough circuit where the length of time is dictated by someone else, are more beneficial because they develop the mental ability to push your self when you want to give up. Another good one is to hold the pressup position with the arms bent for a set time. Try a minute then build up from there. It is tough and you will need to use your brain to complete the task as much as your muscles.

I am in the Police in the UK and I can say that the fitness levels of the majority of officers is very poor. They however are probably better at talking to people because of it. If they were 6'3 and built like a tank they would probably not feel the need to negotiate quite as much as the average 5'9, slightly overweight cop or the young officer that has not seen a gym in his or her life. If you look at all the teams that have a role that is geared up for work in hostile enviroments they are always fit. (Firearms teams, dedicated public order teams ect.) 

Paul Genge
Russian Martial Arts Northwest


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## Bod (Aug 25, 2004)

Paul,

you didn't train Bujinkan Taijutsu with Kevin Addison in Tooting Bec at one point (say 8 years ago) did you?


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## Bod (Aug 25, 2004)

> my judo/jujutsu instructor likes to say everything you should do in a self-defense situation you should be able to do in a tuxedo, without ruining it...


Well, there's nothing ruins a tuxedo like excess flab...


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## Paul Genge (Aug 25, 2004)

Yes I used to travel down to Kevin's from time to time.  I have now moved away from the Bujinkan, but speak to Kev from time to time.


Paul Genge
http://www.russianmartialart.org.uk


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