# Seiza



## Eric Damon Rapier (Aug 30, 2019)

Can anyone give any pointers on how to make sitting in seiza comfortable? I  hope that I am spelling it correctly.


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## Mitlov (Aug 30, 2019)

It's not at first, especially if you're an adult who didn't grow up sitting that way.  It gets better as your ankles and other joints loosen up for it.

My suggestion is to start with very short time frames in carpet, repeated a couple times a day.

Until this is comfortable, when in class on a hard floor, try sitting with the balls of your feet on the floor instead of the tops of the feet. It's not a technically seiza, but it's close enough to get through class and it's a lot easier for many people.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 30, 2019)

I do have thoughts on this. Before I answer, tell me about when, how often and for how long you are being asked to do it? What is happening while you are sitting? I read in another of your threads that you are a new Goju Ryu student.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Aug 30, 2019)

Twice....once in the beginning for about 45 sec to 1 minute. I can feel how tight my shin and foot muscles are. My knees and ankles feel compressed. And my quads are tight as well. Also, I am currently unable to sit all the way back on my feet. I hunch over.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Aug 30, 2019)

Oh and then again as we close out class for about 30 seconds. Sorry for the incomplete post...smh


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## drop bear (Aug 30, 2019)

Be younger.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Aug 30, 2019)

Challenging but I hear you


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 30, 2019)

Before Goggle your word, I thought you were talking about this.


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## isshinryuronin (Aug 31, 2019)

During Iaido classes, where _seiza_ position is often used, a couple of guys taped a pad to the top of their ankles.  This raised and took some of the pressure off not only the ankle, but also off the instep.  It seemed very effective.


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## ShortBridge (Aug 31, 2019)

Okay, not particularly long in the grand scheme. For me, it's painful and it's never gotten any better physically. I have students who it doesn't bother from the beginning, so there is some physiology to it. I spend a bunch of time trying to figure out how to micro-adjust and fidget in ways that would make it less painful, until one day I decided that the pain was superficial and meditative. Now, I breath, pick something to focus on, like a candle or someone leading something, as the case may be and try to stay relaxed and not allow the discomfort to affect me.

Now, I feel like it is a profound martial arts lesson (I don't know if it was intended that way or not), but can I center myself in a way so as not to be affected by some (intense) superficial pain? If not, what's going to happen when I get hit?

That's probably not the type of advice that you wanted, but it's where my own struggle with seiza has led me and I feel like it's a strength rather than a weakness at this point. Sitting a bit every day on your own would help too, but I'm not sure if it will even not be painful to you, it hasn't happened that way for me, but the pain is useful. To my knowledge, no one has ever been injured by sitting. It's not real. There is no spoon.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Be younger.


lol.. they got a pill for that?  I'll take it.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2019)

This may or may not help.  I sat in seiza for the first time ever.  I could feel stretching in my ankles.  It wasn't bad the first time I could have probably sat like that for 2 minutes.  Not sure what would happen afterwards, but lol.

My guess all of the years of ankle rotations are probably the reason.  I used to do these things everyday and I always do them as part of my warm up.  Be gentle when you do it, it's not a stretching exercise, it's a joint / tendon re-alignment exercise.  Sometimes tendons get out of place and when that happens it affects flexibility.  Tendons aren't like muscle so you aren't going to get a lot of stretch from a tendon.  As you do the ankle rotation you my hear and feel your tendon pop back into it's correct position.





I've sat in seiza about 6 times and it progressively became more difficult to do.  I can only assume my 200lb body is not doing me any favors. For me it seems like it's going require some time to gradually get it to where there is little to no tension.   Another thing that I was able to do, was to redistribute my weight so that my ankles are taking so much weight. 

I also do these type of exercises.  Remember all of this is gentle movement and not big stretch movements. Joints are made of tendons and ligaments and those things don't stretch very much so you only have to move them very little and very gentle in order to make this work. 





Just from what I learned when I used to have knee problems.  A tendon that is out of place (mine was kind of wrapped around other parts) will take out the flexibility and strength and no matter how many times you you train the sitting position, you won't get any relief until that tendon is moved back into it's correct place.  For my knees it took a doctor to manually move the tendon back into place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2019)

As others have pointed out, the tightness will loosen over time. Being in a grappling-heavy art, I do all of my seiza on mats. I'm not sure my knees would let me sit even briefly in seiza on wood floors.

In any case, that tension will release over time. Find some approximations that you can comfortably sit in for a few minutes at a time while watching TV and such. Use pillows or something, so you're just at the edge of tension, but able to relax comfortably.

Also check with your instructor about what alternative positions are acceptable. At the Karate dojo where I teach, some of the older yudansha sit cross-legged to bow in.


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## JowGaWolf (Sep 1, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Also check with your instructor about what alternative positions are acceptable.


This is also a good one. Especially if there is no way you can physically do it without tearing up the body.


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## Orion Nebula (Sep 2, 2019)

We rarely sit in seiza at my dojo. Our head instructor's knee is wonky, so he only occasionally sits in seiza (I think I've seen him do it three times in 7 months). As such, he doesn't think it's appropriate to ask his students to sit in seiza if he does not. He also doesn't really believe that Americans should sit in seiza on a regular basis because we haven't grown up doing it and thus it's not good for our legs and circulation. No idea if there's truth to that, but I'm not going to argue  

As a teen, seiza felt perfectly natural. I could sit for a a good while in seiza, and my longest was probably 10 minutes while listening to a guest instructor speak. I'm sure I could have sat even longer. Now that I'm 34 and hadn't done it for 16ish years, seiza isn't painful for me, but it is awkward and I feel stiff while doing it. Since my knee I'm injury, I also haven't been willing to go all the way down, so I'm a little hunched, too. Thankfully, I very rarely do it, though. I last did it at a regional seminar, and my tendonitis really flared up by the end of the day. So I had to use my hands to get off the floor. Several students whispered in my ear, "you're not supposed to use your hands." Bless their hearts and their young knees.

No idea if you'll ever feel like teenaged me (probably not), but take heart that lots of others feel like you.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2019)

Orion Nebula said:


> We rarely sit in seiza at my dojo. Our head instructor's knee is wonky, so he only occasionally sits in seiza (I think I've seen him do it three times in 7 months). As such, he doesn't think it's appropriate to ask his students to sit in seiza if he does not. He also doesn't really believe that Americans should sit in seiza on a regular basis because we haven't grown up doing it and thus it's not good for our legs and circulation. No idea if there's truth to that, but I'm not going to argue
> 
> As a teen, seiza felt perfectly natural. I could sit for a a good while in seiza, and my longest was probably 10 minutes while listening to a guest instructor speak. I'm sure I could have sat even longer. Now that I'm 34 and hadn't done it for 16ish years, seiza isn't painful for me, but it is awkward and I feel stiff while doing it. Since my knee I'm injury, I also haven't been willing to go all the way down, so I'm a little hunched, too. Thankfully, I very rarely do it, though. I last did it at a regional seminar, and my tendonitis really flared up by the end of the day. So I had to use my hands to get off the floor. Several students whispered in my ear, "you're not supposed to use your hands." Bless their hearts and their young knees.
> 
> No idea if you'll ever feel like teenaged me (probably not), but take heart that lots of others feel like you.


I actually agree that folks who didn't spend time in seiza early in life probably aren't doing themselves favors by spending extended periods in that position. I started with it in my teens, too, and it's an easy position for me (much easier than cross-legged, for instance), but not something I can stay in for an hour.


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## Mitlov (Sep 3, 2019)

Eric Damon Rapier said:


> Twice....once in the beginning for about 45 sec to 1 minute. I can feel how tight my shin and foot muscles are. My knees and ankles feel compressed. And my quads are tight as well. Also, I am currently unable to sit all the way back on my feet. I hunch over.



Do standing quad stretches. Make sure you're grabbing your foot up near the toes, not around the ankle, so you're improving ankle mobility as well as stretching your quads.


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## Mitlov (Sep 3, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Before Goggle your word, I thought you were talking about this.



That's the lotus position, associated with Buddhism and yoga. Never seen it in karate.


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## punisher73 (Sep 3, 2019)

Meditation Benches - The Monastery Store

I made one myself and they are great and don't put any pressure on your knees.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

Yo......that is awesome!!! This site is so dope!!! Thank you greatly for this. I'm super thankful.


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## punisher73 (Sep 3, 2019)

Eric Damon Rapier said:


> Yo......that is awesome!!! This site is so dope!!! Thank you greatly for this. I'm super thankful.



No worries at all!  Glad you found value in it.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2019)

Speaking as one who could never sit comfortably in seiza, and who happily does Chinese martial arts now so I don't have to. When I did, I had to cross my ankles. That is not comfortable either, but it was the only way I could do it.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

I try it that way as well. Its all uncomfortable currently. But I'm putting the time and effort in to hopefully get to a comfortable space in it.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 3, 2019)

Xue Sheng said:


> Speaking as one who could never sit comfortably in seiza, and who happily does Chinese martial arts now so I don't have to. When I did, I had to cross my ankles. That is not comfortable either, but it was the only way I could do it.


I hate seiza. Even as a kid, I hated it, and even doing it since childhood, I still don't find it comfortable. No amount of stretching really helped, it's just not a comfortable position to be in. I'd always fudge it, and am grateful I no longer have to sit in it.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I hate seiza. Even as a kid, I hated it, and even doing it since childhood, I still don't find it comfortable. No amount of stretching really helped, it's just not a comfortable position to be in. I'd always fudge it, and am grateful I no longer have to sit in it.



I actually came across more recently with Pranayama, hated it then to, even more actually. The only way I could even do that was sitting on Yoga blocks


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

I hear both of you...it doesn't feel natural. I'm gonna give it an honest try though. Hopefully it gets better.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 3, 2019)

Eric Damon Rapier said:


> I hear both of you...it doesn't feel natural. I'm gonna give it an honest try though. Hopefully it gets better.



As my daughters Aikido Sensei says, its works great for young knees.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

Hahaha...tell me about it. My 47 year old knees definitely don't like it


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## punisher73 (Sep 3, 2019)

I wish I could remember what/where I was reading it, but they talked about even the Japanese students when sitting in seiza for too long would occasionally pass out or their legs went to sleep and had trouble getting up.


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## Yokozuna514 (Sep 3, 2019)

When I started Kyokushin karate 10 years ago I found it very difficult to sit in seiza for any extended period of time.  I am older than you are and not particularly flexible but Kyokushin is all about pushing through discomfort and overcoming obstacles through persistence.   After 6 or 7 years, I could sit comfortably for an extended period of time.  Now I find it quite comfortable to sit in seiza and do so even when I'm coaching basketball and addressing my team.  

As many have already said, it takes time for the ligaments to stretch and it is best for it to be done over time.   What you may find is that your movement in your art will get better as your body gets used to the work (which will include sitting in seiza).  Good luck and stay on it.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

That's encouraging. Thank you


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## pgsmith (Sep 3, 2019)

Hey Eric,
Here's the advice I give to new students encountering seiza for the first time ...

Practice helps. Since westerners don't use this position, it takes a while to acclimate the body. Practice at home on the carpet while watching television, but only for a short time each. It will gradually get easier and your time will increase.

Do squats. Squatting completely down and back up is also something we as westerners don't do very often. It will help develop the proper musculature to make seiza easier, and will improve how oyu get up and down from it.

Pay attention to how you're sitting. Most people don't spend much time giving instruction on how to sit in seiza, as it wasn't something that was needed from the Japanese origins of our arts. However, there are a couple of things that are required to properly align the body. First, don't slouch. The immediate reaction to the pressure on the top of the feet is to slouch forward, which actually puts more weight on the ankles. Instead, try rotating your hips forward. this increases the effort of your quads while shifting your weight forward off of the tops of your feet. Your quads will get stronger, and your ankles and feet will thank you. Also, try and maintain body alignment. Keeping your weight centered over your hips at all times will make your feet hurt less.

It gets easier over time.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

Pgsmith thank you. I can definitely put the effort into slowly working towards getting used to seiza


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## Hanshi (Sep 3, 2019)

Time was when I had no difficulty kneeling in seiza; but then I started when I was a kid.  Sadly, I can no longer doe this.  As a Zen monk I was used to sitting anza (actually a degree of lotus) but this has been impossible for years.  Now it all has to be in a chair.  Aging isn't for sissies.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

Big FACTS!!!


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2019)

Eric Damon Rapier said:


> Hahaha...tell me about it. My 47 year old knees definitely don't like it


Most folks who start with me are in their 40's, and it's not nearly as comfortable for them as for me. I had one guy who trained with me for 3 years, and never could really settle into it.


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 3, 2019)

I hope I'm able to work through it


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 4, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Before Goggle your word, I thought you were talking about this.


Heck no!!!!! My legs would snap apart like toy figure legs lol


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## Eric Damon Rapier (Sep 4, 2019)

Mitlov said:


> Do standing quad stretches. Make sure you're grabbing your foot up near the toes, not around the ankle, so you're improving ankle mobility as well as stretching your quads.


This actually helped!!!


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## JP3 (Sep 7, 2019)

Eric Damon Rapier said:


> Twice....once in the beginning for about 45 sec to 1 minute. I can feel how tight my shin and foot muscles are. My knees and ankles feel compressed. And my quads are tight as well. Also, I am currently unable to sit all the way back on my feet. I hunch over.


Sounds like you're answering your own question. Go witht he advice above, short periods, treating the act of getting "down into seiza" as a stretching exercise in & of itself.  It DOES get better. Like stretching for the leg splits, a feat I never did actually accomplish, but you get better and better as you go.


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