# Modern Arnis Succession  Part2



## Celadora (Nov 14, 2001)

The changes to the IMAP webpage just crack me up.  So now Dr. Schea has ¨retired,¨ making Delaney head grandmaster be deault???  And where are the names of the other 5 Masters o Tapi-Tapi?  Suddenly the people in charge of the organization under Mr. Delaney were never any of the 7 originally listed to be in charge of future instruction under Professor Presas.  I have no intention to bash anyone, but I´ve got the feeling there´s a lot more to this than any of us know...


----------



## ARNIS PRINCESS (Nov 14, 2001)

It doesn't surprise me to see the politics in Modern Arnis after the death of Professor Presas. History repeats itself. We have seen this many times in other systems, probably the most noted was Parker's Kenpo.  The top person of the group passes on and the rest of the people scramble for power.  

Now we have two IMAF groups.  Eveyone knows about Delaney, but now we have the rest of the MOTTs with their own IMAF group.  The only difference, at a quick glance, is that one is punctuated and the other isn't. Now the IMAF(*,*) group claims that Delaney has fired the members and given them no choice but to form this new group.  I find this somewhat ironic seeing that this is what Datu Hartman claimed happened in his situation.  Could it be that Hartman *was* named as Presas' successor?  And after the group got rid of Datu Hartman, they turned on themselves?


----------



## bloodwood (Nov 14, 2001)

This sounds like the script from gladiator. Looks closer to the truth every day.:ninja: :samurai:


----------



## Guro Harold (Nov 14, 2001)

From: ProfessorPresas.com (JD):

"Jamil Tarkhani's IMAF EVENT in Germany attended by 1,100 People!"

- Any Thoughts?


----------



## Icepick (Nov 14, 2001)

"Jamil Tarkhani's IMAF EVENT in Germany attended by 1,100 People!" 

My guess, martial arts expo with 5 minute modern arnis demo.  I get invites to many Modern Arnis events, but I didn't hear about this one, did you?


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 14, 2001)

Mod Note - This was split off the original thread.  please continue from here, with the air a bit clearer, I hope.

:asian:


----------



## Celadora (Nov 16, 2001)

About the Germany expo:
I was under the impression that Germany and all of Europe were under the region of one of the MOTTs, Gaby Roloff.  I wonder if she was there and what she has to say about the event?

Another question: do you believe the split in the IMAF has anything to do with the regions of the US that leaders are from?  How will this effect your camps, seminars, etc?


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 16, 2001)

If you look at the picture you can see that it is some kind of celebration. If you look carefully you will see a man in a tux, a lighting system and more than one style of martial arts uniforms. This was most likely a mixed martial arts demo. Most likely Gaby was not there. She is a part time martial artist and knowing Jamil, he probably invited the commercial school owners only.

As far as Gaby being the European rep this would be for the *IMAF, inc*. The WMAA has several schools in Europe. I will be on tour the next two weeks in Denmark and Sweden. We have stayed out of Germany due to the political situation with the existing groups there. If they would be interested associating themselves with us we would consider it, but at the moment I don't think it would be in our best interest to try to start things there.

:asian:


----------



## Guro Harold (Nov 16, 2001)

I do believe that this was Jamil's event.  ProfessorPresas.com does mention two November seminars hosted by Jamil.  It seems that he is aligned with JD's IMAF while Gaby is a MOTT in the IMAF, INC.

Nevertheless, if it is true that there were 1,100 people exposed to Modern Arnis at one time, that would be impressive.  Maybe eventually, it will be posted on their news section.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Nov 16, 2001)

It may have been hosted by Jamil and Modern Arnis in it, but I doubt that it was an IMAF event. Events like that are very common in Europe. When I taught in England last year there was over 1500 people at the AKKS European championships. The black belt class I taught had over 60 people in it alone. This would have been listed on my site had it not happen the weekend before we took Remy to the hospital in Germany.

As far as Jamil hosting Jeff D. goes, that was only while Remy was still alive. If you look at the events page on Jeff's site I do not see a return visit scheduled. If you look at Jamil's site you will see Gaby's name on several pages.

If you go to this site it has pictures of the event. I didn't see any Modern Arnis photos and only see the art mentioned in the text. I don't read German but it doesn't seam that the art was a big role at the event. Check the site for your self.

http://www.sinawali.de/html/aktuell.html

:asian:


----------



## Mao (Nov 18, 2001)

The Germs. wll do what they will.  I don't think, by the way, that the MOTTs forming a group means that they turned on themselves. That sounded mean spirited. I'm hoping it was not. Tim did his thing for his reasons, many of which I know. He and we are more alike than some mind. Thats a good thing.


----------



## DPRESAS (Nov 27, 2001)

SEMINARS ARE NOW POSTED AT WWW.MODERNARNIS.COM


----------



## arnisador (Nov 27, 2001)

> _Originally posted by DPRESAS _
> *SEMINARS ARE NOW POSTED AT WWW.MODERNARNIS.COM *



I hope that more U.S. locations will be scheduled! Thanks for letting us know.

I note that the WWW.MODERNARNIS.COM web site graciously provides a link to this forum under its Links page.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2001)

Cool.  :asian: 

Checked the site out...it's coming together nicely.


----------



## Guro Harold (Dec 25, 2001)

It took awhile it appears for JD's website to update the news however below is a  direct excerpt from www.professorpresas.com:
[Excerpt begins ->
On October 27, 2001, Jamil Tarkhani, International Modern Arnis Federation African Director and European Competition and Tournament Direstor hosted the first annual Kampfsport Festival in Tornesch, Germany. fhe festival featured performances and demonstrations by top martial artists and demo teams from around the world including Jeff Delaney, Grandmaster of Modern Arnis and successor to Professor Remy Presas...
<- Excerpt concludes]


----------



## Mao (Dec 25, 2001)

It would be nice if some of us could go to these places so people could see a _good_  representation of modern arnis.


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Dec 25, 2001)

That is wishful thinking. Although I'm not entirley convinced that Jamil knows whos who in the Modern Arnis world yet. Like Parker's Kenpo, it will take a while for people to know who's the sh*t and who's just plain sh*ty! Germany had a lot of problems in Modern Arnis before Remy's death, I can just imagine how bad it could get.


:asian:


----------



## Mao (Dec 25, 2001)

I suppose that it will depend on the character of the people over there. It sounds, from experience with a person who visited my school (as you know), that alot remains to be seen in terms of how people get along.


----------



## Dieter (Jan 12, 2002)

Hi everybody,
since Germany is mentioned several times in this thread I think it is time for me to post.
For I am not too well known in the US, let me first introduce myself so that you know who I am. My name is Dieter Knüttel and since 1985 I am the chief-instructor of the German Arnis Association (DAV) which is one of the largest FMA organisations in Europe. We practice Modern Arnis in the DAV. I started Arnis in 1978 under Jackson Cui Brocka the same Master, that Datu Kelly Worden has started his FMA career with. I have been to the Philippines several times, staying about 3 months for training each time.
We have been with Ernesto Presas from 1983 to 1993 and with the Professor from 1994 to his death. I introduced Modern Arnis in Germany in 1983 and later in Denmark, Sweden, Norway and Switzerland. I have taught seminars in these countries plus in France, England, Austria, Spain, Australia and the in the USA. I still teach about 20 Modern Arnis weekend seminars a year.
I have given Modern Arnis exhibitions in Germany, Denmark, Holland, Sweden and Norway with up to 15.000 spectators watching.  1996 I received Lakan Anim (6th Dan) and the DATU title as the 4th person from the Professor. We had him regulary in Germany and held seminars with 80 - 130 Modern arnis practitioners here in Germany. We held our examinations here in Germany and the Professor was always very pleased with the results. During his last seminar with us we had 28 black belt gradings form 1st up to 5th Dan. He always brought americans over to whitness the gradings and the seminar, like Dr. Randi Shea, Al Garza, Datu David Hoffman, Jeff Delaney and also Datu Tim Hartman. I have taught seminars in the US, where people like Michel Bates, Al Garza (organizer in Texas) and Dr. Randi Shea participated. During the Professors last seminar here with us in 1999, he asked Jeff Delany to invite me to Texas.
I know all of the MOTT´s exept of Ken Smith and all Datus exept Datu Shishir Inocalla and Datu Ric Bong Journales and I  am also in good terms with Roland Dantes, whom I know since 1983, when I met him in Manila.
I was with the Professor during his last days, I left on Monday and he died on Tuesday.
I don´t write this to brag but just that you see that I know what I am talking about. 

Regarding the IMAF´s and so on I want to stay out of the politics. I am only observing what happens. 
Regarding Jamil Tharkani: He was a student of a student of mine and he made his 1st Dan with us in I think in 1997 or 98, when Dr. Randi Shea and Al Garza were here too. He split with the DAV in 1999 to join Gaby and seemed to have split with her too is with Jeff Delaney now as far as I know. 
His event was a fund raising event for handicapped children featuring Capoeira, Wun Hop Kuen Do, (Dacascos Kung Fu) and a few other styles. Modern Arnis was only a 5 minute exhibition and it definitively was not an IMAF event. Jeff Delaney was there but did not give an exhibition. The Arnis part was held by Jamil. It  was with a lot of high kicking and so on. A good show, but not really what we (and I think you too) would call Modern Arnis. JD was quoted with the statement: "I could not influence this exhibition any more" 
Regarding Gaby Roloff: She made the contact between the Professor and us in 1994, when she was brown belt. She does not belong to the DAV and is teaching almost only women. She has nothing really to do with most of the Modern Arnis players in Germany, because they do not belong to her group. She has no groups in other countries in Europpe and teaches mainly seminars in the US and not so much here. One does not hear much from her. As far as I know she was not at Jamils event.

Regarding problems in Germany, there are alway problems, when people meet and work togeter (or not work together).
Modern Arnis in the US goes the same way as Aikido, Wing Chun, Keno, JKA Karate and really any other style, where the strong man at the top, who holds everything together, dies. (I womnder what happens when Dan Inosanto is dead) I am sure it will be the same with the WMAA when Tim drops out or with the DAV, when I stop there. It seems to be part of the human nature, that it is alomst impossible to accept a new leader, when he is picked out of a group of even people, or, in the case of JD, even below the level of the top people 

The Professor let us find many different ways to interprete his Modern Arnis and the only way to do him justice is being tolerant, beacuse if there is one thing he hated it was politics. We all have learned at diffenerent stages of his development, and I think the beauty of the art is, that it does hardly limit us, when we observe the principies behind the techniques.

During one examination for a 2nd Dan, the person was moving , let us say very individually, not the way most other Modern Arnis players move. When we discussed the examination with the Professor befor handing out the degree, we asked him about his feelings towards that and the Professor said: "Leave him his feedom" For me it was a clear soign from him, that it is important that the art works individually for everybody and that there is not a standard right or wrong, but rather a "it works" or "it doesn´t work" and that he did not want to have copies of himself but thinking individuals, that can adapt the techniques to their needs or to the ones of their students. This is, I think, also, what he gave the DATU title for. I can´t speak for everybody, but I think for Datu Kelly Worden, myself and Datu Tim Hartman, it is the case.

Anyway, this post is very long already and I don´want to boe you all too much.

If there are any more questions regarding Arnis her in Germany or Europe, I will be more that willing to share my views.

DATU Dieter Knüttel

BTW: If you are interested in our interpretation of Modern Arnis, I have 5 videos about our currrent grading program up to brown belt plus I am almost finished with a new video about the Tapi-Tapi of Modern Arnis, which runs for more than 90 minutes.
You can find out more under 
http://www.abanico.de


----------



## Datu Tim Hartman (Jan 12, 2002)

I think that we need to clear up the use of the word *MODERN ARNIS* when it comes to europe.

For a while GM Ernesto Presas (Remy's younger brother) would use the same name of Modern Arnis for the program he was teaching. Although there are many things alike, it is not the same program. Eventually after the two brothers had a talk Ernesto changed his program name to Kombaton. Before this time Ernesto promoted many poeple in europe in the name of Modern Arnis. This has caused much confusion many of these people still call the program Modern Arnis even though the name has been changed.

The reason for me bringing this up is that saying that Gaby is not active with the German Modern Arnis players is not entirley accurate. She is active with the Remy Modern Arnis people. I've taught at her club, she has many people in Hamburg. I also know that she has other affiliated schools.

I'm not trying to start trouble, just clearing things up.

That's all for now.
:asian:


----------



## Dieter (Jan 12, 2002)

Hi Tim, 

thanks for your reply.
Just a few remarks to your e-mail.
Ernesto has learned from the Professor and was ranked by him at least up to 7th Dan. I saw the Modern Arnis certificate with the signature of the Pofessor in Ernestos gym in Manila in 1983. He taught Modern Arnis under this name to many police and armed forces units as well as in universities and colleges in Manila. He wrote books and produced videos under the name of Modern Arnis. He only changed to Kombatan about 2 or 3 years ago.  I have heared under the pressure of the Professor, but this is hearsay, I don´t know. And he has changed the name, but not the techniques. I saw an exhibition of Ernesto las year and it was still about 90% the techniques that I have learned some 15 years ago.

But I had an interesting e-mail converasation with Gat puno Baet about Modern Arnis. He was a student of the Professor and Modern Arnis representative for Laguna in the 70ies. 
He also knows Ernestos Program. He wrote, that Ernestos Modern Arnis is closer to the Professors Modern Arnis of the 70ies, compared to what the Professor taught in the late 90ies. So the Porfessor evolved. Very good and I think for the better of the system, but both is Modern Arnis. For exampple Rocky Paswik, who learned Modern Arnis under the Professor of the early 80ies for sure learned another version than people, that learned it in the late 90ies.  Out Modern Arnis might not be the same as yours, but it still is Modern Arnis.
The Professor saw during his seminars more than 50 black belt examinations of our organisation and we always talked with him about the exam afterwards. He signed them all and always spoke very highly of our exams, in front of the seminar participants and in private conversation. If he would have thought, this is not Modern Arnis, he would have told us and he would not made me a Datu and his European  Modern Arnis Representative in 1996.

Regarding Gaby you did not quote me correctly. I did not say that she (your quote) "...is not active with the German Modern Arnis players..."(end of quote) 
I stated, that (my quote) "she has nothing really to do with most of the Modern Arnis players in Germany" (end of my quote).  That means, she is teaching, but for example our group and others are much larger than her group and that she has no contact with them. This is ok for me, neither good nor bad and I don´t want to evaluate this. These are just the plain facts.

I only wrote this, because Celadora wrote earlier in this thread: (another quote)" I was under the impression that Germany and all of Europe were under the region of one of the MOTTs, Gaby Roloff. " (end of the quote).
This is not the case and that is all I wanted to point out.
I also do not want to create any trouble with anybody. 
I just want the facts to be clear.

Best regards from Germany


Datu Dieter Knüttel


----------



## arnisador (Jan 12, 2002)

It's great to have Mr. Knüttel posting here--thanks! The early history of the Presas brothers is very interesting and I would be curious to hear more of it.


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jan 12, 2002)

Datu Knüttel - Welcome. :asian: 

I think its great that we've got such a blend of individuals here from the Arnis world.  We have what? 3 of the 6 Datus here now?  Many individuals who trained with GM Presas over the last 30+ years.

The more info the better, especially to those of us who are new to the art.

:asian:


----------



## no fefe (Jan 12, 2002)

Hello Datu Dieter I attended a seminar of yours at Datu Worden's school many years ago.  I was wondering when is the next time you will be passing through the states again.

Robert K


----------



## Dieter (Jan 13, 2002)

Hello Robert,

nice to hear from you.
It is not really up to me when I will be back in the US teaching.There should be 2 or 3 seminars in a row, so that the flight over to the US is worthwhile. The Porfessor encouraged me to come over to the US (he always asked the americans, that were with him here in Germany, to set up seminars for me, like Al Garza, Jeff Delaney and Tony Silverio (he asked Tony when I was at a summercamp in New England)) and I have been teaching a few seminars in Whichita/ Kansas, Tacoma, New England, Philidelphia and Houston. But at that time (around 1997/98) it was difficult, because the Professor was very active traveling a lot and it was hard to find times in different areas, where he was not. If there is a seminar with the Professor in the next weeks, why should one come to a seminar with a student of the Professor. Now there are 6 Motts in the US and I think they tech a lot. 
But if there is any interest and demand for some seminars with me, I am willing to come, to whatever organisation. 

Just two more things about questions asked before: the colored rim around the belt indicates the next color, so if you have an yellow belt rimmed with green, the next examination  should be for geern belt. In Professors old book from 1973 the highest belt was red, so thats what the red rim at the blach  belt was for. Red was always an important color for the Filipinos. Juramentados for example (people that  made suicide attacks in the Philippines) were wearing a red headband, when they had killed at least 7 people. Red was also the color of the pants of the original Miodern Arnis uniform, that the Professor designed beginning of the 70ies.

Another point was the question about why the knot of the belts is on the right side.
I asked this question to the Professor and he told me, that it is a symbol for a sword or machete, that is worn in the Philippines. And for the Professor was left handed, he would have the machete on his right hip, to be able to draw it quickly. Thats what he told me, why the knot is on the right side   

So much for now

Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel


----------



## Guro Harold (Jan 13, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Dieter _
> *
> 
> Just two more things about questions asked before: the colored rim around the belt indicates the next color, so if you have an yellow belt rimmed with green, the next examination  should be for geern belt. In Professors old book from 1973 the highest belt was red, so thats what the red rim at the blach  belt was for. Red was always an important color for the Filipinos. Juramentados for example (people that  made suicide attacks in the Philippines) were wearing a red headband, when they had killed at least 7 people. Red was also the color of the pants of the original Miodern Arnis uniform, that the Professor designed beginning of the 70ies.
> ...



Datu Dieter and the MartialTalk Web hosts, 

Thanks for those bits of history.  I think that is just one of the many values of MartialTalk, that is to bring various people together to communicate and preserve the history of Modern Arnis.

Palusut


----------



## Pappy Geo (Jan 13, 2002)

Datu Dieter:

Hello to you Datu Dieter, This is George Hoover, I met you last summer in Victoria the day before the professor passed on. I was with Datu Worden. I remember both of you Datus discussing the knives that Datu Kelly had brought with him. You were nearly on your way to the airport. 

It was a pleasure meeting you sir!

Pappy Geo


----------



## Dieter (Jan 15, 2002)

Hello George

nce to hear from you.
It was a pleasure to meet you and hopfully we might see us again sometimes under better circumstances.
(It was at the Professors care center one day before he died). 
Take care and say hello to Kelly when you see him.

Best regards from Germany

Datu Dieter Knüttel


----------



## Rob_Broad (Jan 15, 2002)

I am sorry to see the political quagmire the Modern Arnis world is in right now, it is very disheartening.  Unfortunately I have seen this situation before when Ed Parker passed away.  All I can say to everybody his hold your ground and let your conscince be your guide.  In the end people that have padded their resumes and out and out lied about their qualifaications, or have said that hey were told they would be the successor; will get theirs in the end.

I hope the things clear up for you guys quickly.  Hang in there.


----------

