# Con-Artist Martial Artists



## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Hey guys, I'm new here but have been studying various martial arts including JKD for 15 years. I have experienced training with a few Jokers myself and advised friends to remove their kids from crap Con-Artist instructors. I was wondering what's everyone's experience of such frauds might be, any comedy stories!? Andy


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

When you say frauds or con artists, what do you mean?   Maybe if you shared some of your comedy stories of your experiences with frauds, we'd have a better idea of what you're looking for. 

I've never trained with someone like Frank Dux or Ashida Kim, so I don't think I have the kinds of stories you're looking for.


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## CB Jones (Apr 20, 2018)

What do you mean con-artist martial arts instructor?

Like has never trained in martial arts and is lying about it or just doesn’t meet your standards?  A little more detail please


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

I can't Comment on whether these people are lying about their qualifications etc as everyone is different. But in my opinion whether you are qualified or not, if you are teaching crap that will get people hurt in a real fight and charging them for it, you are a con-artist. Obviously I'm not on about martial arts for fitness purposes.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

A horrible personal experience I had was with my first ever master in wing chun (don't ask for a name, I won't give it out). I wanted to learn JKD or wing chun for ages and when I started work I could afford lessons. Anyway I started training with this Joker but unknowingly he turn out to be a fraud. He'd lied about his lineage and his qualifications from various wing chun instructors. I realised this during our school doing a demo and my instructor looked so crap compared to the other demos. Then one of the instructors he said he had trained with turned up with his school and during our demo was shaking his head. I questioned him about it afterwards and he just said I was ying then banned me from the school! I couldn't believe it


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Hey guys, I'm new here but have been studying various martial arts including JKD for 15 years. I have experienced training with a few Jokers myself and advised friends to remove their kids from crap Con-Artist instructors. I was wondering what's everyone's experience of such frauds might be, any comedy stories!? Andy


Honestly I don't like it when people tell other people to remove their kids from classes. It's not your business to do this in my opinion


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Just a heads up that fraudbusting is explicitly against the rules of MartialTalk. Talking in generalities or making anonymous references is probably okay, but "name-and-shame" is a no-go on this forum.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

The term "con artist" should be held for those who knowingly lie to mislead people into believing something (good or service purchased) is something they know it is not. Crappy instructors don't meet that definition unless they know they are crap.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Crappy instructors don't meet that definition unless they know they are crap.


The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger club.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger club.


It's rare I want to mark "agree" and "funny" on the same post, Tony.


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## Kababayan (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> I can't Comment on whether these people are lying about their qualifications etc as everyone is different. But in my opinion whether you are qualified or not, if you are teaching crap that will get people hurt in a real fight and charging them for it, you are a con-artist. Obviously I'm not on about martial arts for fitness purposes.




I think I understand what you are asking for but there are too many perspectives of a situation to get legitimate story.  For example, a dojo opened up down the street from mine with an instructor who gave himself a Black Belt.  He was a Green Belt in his art but wanted to open his own dojo.  I could call him a fraud, but he ended up becoming a very legitimate martial artist, including a multi-time tournament champion and successful dojo owner.  His students love him.    I also know some very good martial artists, with solid lineage, who are terrible teachers.  They are not teaching bad stuff, they are just bad teachers.  There are also some really bad martial artists out there who have good lineage, but that doesn't mean that they are frauds.  They are just bad martial artists. This also brings in the debate of what is considered crap.  I may not agree with the philosophies of certain art, but that doesn't mean that it is crap. Because there isn't one governing body for the martial arts, legitimacy of rank is really subjective and I don't really focus on lineage or rank anyway.  Most long-term martial artists can tell if someone knows his/her stuff after a few minutes of observation or through discussion. I think you'll find that most of the marital artists on this forum stay away from bashing and focus more on sharing viewpoints based on their individual martial arts experiences.  That's why I enjoy this forum more than other MA forums.


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## Martial D (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
> By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!



This is actually a huge problem with TMA in general, though thankfully one that is being addressed nearly around the board in most styles. The days of the woo masters are waning.

Saying they are con artists though, while sometimes true, usually isn't the case. Generally the woo master has been trained a certain way, one that doesn't involve any sort of real testing of skills, but believes the woo to be true.


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## pgsmith (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Sorry guys, yeah looks like more detail should have been in my post.
> By Con-Artist I mean instructors that are charging people who know no better for the honour of learning crap fighting methods that will have them believe they are going to be capable in a fight, but instead will get them very hurt!


  You have to be really careful when you say something like this, as there are as many different reasons for learning martial arts as there are martial artists.
  I agree that the incident you recounted regarding your own instruction is a bad deal. However, that is a particular incidence of someone deliberately lying about their credentials and experience. This is a lie and can be considered fraudulent. Once you say the "crap fighting methods", then you are simply expressing an opinion and you've entered a very large grey area.

  Here's an example for you ... there is an instructor in the city I used to live in. He was a member of the US Martial Arts Hall of Fame and was certified by the US Sokeship Council (both giant red flags). I observed his technique and "sparring" on numerous occasions, and it was pretty bad in my opinion, so he was teaching crap fighting methods. However, most of his students were kids. They focused mainly on personal strengths, self esteem, and being better people. The kids loved him, the parents loved him, and his kids were all very well spoken and respectful both in class and outside (I had quite a bit of interaction with some through Scouts).

  So, while he wasn't teaching good fighting methods, and his students could possibly get hurt if they engaged in a real fight, I never heard of any of them actually having a real fight (the vast majority of people don't). By your standards he should have been run out of town for teaching crap fighting methods. However, he has had a large influence on a great many people, and I know he is now teaching kids of the kids he used to teach.

  It's very easy to jump on the bandwagon and run down people that aren't "real martial artists" (whatever that means to any individual), but you have to consider exactly why someone is going to a particular school first. Those "crap fighting skills" may be just what someone is looking for. 



gpseymour said:


> It's rare I want to mark "agree" and "funny" on the same post, Tony.



  Got you covered!


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## pdg (Apr 20, 2018)

So you've been studying stuff including JKD for 15 years.

What if it turns out that you aren't actually a genius but are in fact incredibly mediocre - should we consider your username as fraudulent?


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

Martial D said:


> This is actually a huge problem with TMA in general, though thankfully one that is being addressed nearly around the board in most styles. The days of the woo masters are waning.
> 
> Saying they are con artists though, while sometimes true, usually isn't the case. Generally the woo master has been trained a certain way, one that doesn't involve any sort of real testing of skills, but believes the woo to be true.


Con artist to me implies an intent to deceive.   Whle some certainly do, I believe generally where it happens, they are just unable to distinguish between what they know and what they believe.   They just don't know better.  I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though. 

Regarding dunning-krueger, I cringe when the term is used around here.  It's a term I think is used by some to dismiss alternative points of view and avoid introspection.  'You're challenging my deeply held belief, so Dunning-Krueger!  You just don't know what you're talking about.  Even more than that, you're too ignorant to know how ignorant you are.'  I can't think of too many things that would be more disrespectful to say to another poster.


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## CB Jones (Apr 20, 2018)

Not a Martial Arts Instructor, but I do train LEO.

If they are a complete fraud and are lying about their credentials that is one thing.

Other than that....we don't worry about what others teach.  We focus on what we teach and making sure that our content is the best we can make it.

In the end, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> For example, a dojo opened up down the street from mine with an instructor who gave himself a Black Belt. He was a Green Belt in his art but wanted to open his own dojo. I could call him a fraud, but he ended up becoming a very legitimate martial artist, including a multi-time tournament champion and successful dojo owner.


It definitely happens.

By the normal standards for assessing martial arts "phonies", Helio Gracie and his brothers could have definitely qualified. Carlos Gracie got no more than two years of instruction from either Mitsuo Maeda or one of Maeda's students. (The family says Maeda, but the time line suggests a student.) There is no record I know of that Carlos was actually awarded any formal belt rank from Maeda. Carlos's brothers (including Helio) learned from Carlos.

This limited instruction and lack of formal rank did not stop Helio from publicly claiming that he and his brothers were the only legitimate jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil. At the beginning of his fight career, when his record was 0-0-1, he claimed to be the undisputed, undefeated Jiu-Jitsu champion of Brazil. When Judo started making significant inroads in Brazil, Helio claimed that Judo was nothing more than a watered down version of Jiu-Jitsu created to fool Westerners and that his family was the only Brazilian source of the real traditional Samurai art. (Later on, after his brothers died, Helio changed his tune and claimed to be the person who had single-handedly created BJJ by improving Judo to be more efficient and use better leverage.)

We'll not even get into the many examples of shadiness in the personal and business lives of the Gracie brothers.

If this was the whole story, then Helio and his brothers would be just another example of the dishonesty which often seems rampant in the martial arts world. But they did more than just making sketchy, grandiose claims to promote their art.

Starting with that minimal level of instruction, they trained their asses off. They taught lots of students and did lots of sparring in class on a daily basis. They engaged in plenty of challenge matches with other martial artists - in the ring, in the dojo, on the street, on the beach.  They picked the brains of other martial artists they encountered and stole any concept or technique which they found useful. They produced a ridiculous number of offspring and trained them (at least the males) from an early age to be fighters and competitors and teachers.

The result - a sophisticated and highly effective martial art and a family of top-notch professional martial artists. (The Gracies were not solely responsible for the creation of BJJ, but they played a huge role in both the technical development and promotion of the art.)

As a BJJ instructor, I'm most familiar with the history of my art, but I've read things which suggest a similar process has played out in other styles as well.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Steve said:


> Regarding dunning-krueger, I cringe when the term is used around here. It's a term I think is used by some to dismiss alternative points of view and avoid introspection. 'You're challenging my deeply held belief, so Dunning-Krueger! You just don't know what you're talking about. Even more than that, you're too ignorant to know how ignorant you are.' I can't think of too many things that would be more disrespectful to say to another poster.


Eh, it's not an accusation I would generally make to another poster on this forum (with a couple of notable exceptions over the last decade who I still can't decide whether they were D-K exemplars or deliberate trolls). It's worth being aware of as a general phenomenon, though.


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Eh, it's not an accusation I would generally make to another poster on this forum (with a couple of notable exceptions over the last decade who I still can't decide whether they were D-K exemplars or deliberate trolls). It's worth being aware of as a general phenomenon, though.


Yes.  Not accusing you of that.   Sorry if I was unclear.  If anything it should be something we consider with regards to our own opinions.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

pdg said:


> So you've been studying stuff including JKD for 15 years.
> 
> What if it turns out that you aren't actually a genius but are in fact incredibly mediocre - should we consider your username as fraudulent?



Lol well i know I'm far from a genius, the names supposed to be satirical but looks like I've failed there like the Jokers I was trying to get other members own stories and thought on


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> Got you covered!


Thanks, brother!


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Lol well i know I'm far from a genius, the names supposed to be satirical but looks like I've failed there like the Jokers I was trying to get other members own stories and thought on


I'm pretty sure most folks on MT will read it with the satirical intent intact. We're fairly satirical - sometimes intentionally.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Honestly I don't like it when people tell other people to remove their kids from classes. It's not your business to do this in my opinion


Then maybe you haven't seen the rubbish I have?? I'm not the sort of person that can just stand around watching some joke of a karate instructor (just an example, no need for Chuck Norris to find me and hurt me ) dish out belts like they are candy and then tell the parents how great their kids are doing! Sorry but those kids might actually want to be a champion some day and this guy isn't gonna help!


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Just a heads up that fraudbusting is explicitly against the rules of MartialTalk. Talking in generalities or making anonymous references is probably okay, but "name-and-shame" is a no-go on this forum.


Yep I wasn't trying to be specific or name names or even be obvious, I wouldn't do that. But I was trying to see if anyone else had either funny or unfortunate experiences like the one I had with my first introduction into martial arts. It's all got a bit more serious than I was aiming for


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> The term "con artist" should be held for those who knowingly lie to mislead people into believing something (good or service purchased) is something they know it is not. Crappy instructors don't meet that definition unless they know they are crap.


I believe you have summed it up better than I tried to, thank you


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## Kung Fu Wang (Apr 20, 2018)

*Con-Artist Martial Artists*

Here are few "true" examples.

1. A student wants to learn meditation. A teacher draws a dot on the wall and asks that student to stares at that dot on that wall 1 hour daily for the next 3 months.
2. A teacher teaches a student a spear form. In the middle of the form, the teacher stops teaching because there is a flip in the middle of that form that the teacher can't do it.
3. A guy on the phone said that he had trained in Shaolin temple in China for many years with black belt in 4 different styles. The truth was he was a 17 years old American boy. That was back in 1974 and China was not even open for foreigner yet.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I think I understand what you are asking for but there are too many perspectives of a situation to get legitimate story.  For example, a dojo opened up down the street from mine with an instructor who gave himself a Black Belt.  He was a Green Belt in his art but wanted to open his own dojo.  I could call him a fraud, but he ended up becoming a very legitimate martial artist, including a multi-time tournament champion and successful dojo owner.  His students love him.    I also know some very good martial artists, with solid lineage, who are terrible teachers.  They are not teaching bad stuff, they are just bad teachers.  There are also some really bad martial artists out there who have good lineage, but that doesn't mean that they are frauds.  They are just bad martial artists. This also brings in the debate of what is considered crap.  I may not agree with the philosophies of certain art, but that doesn't mean that it is crap. Because there isn't one governing body for the martial arts, legitimacy of rank is really subjective and I don't really focus on lineage or rank anyway.  Most long-term martial artists can tell if someone knows his/her stuff after a few minutes of observation or through discussion. I think you'll find that most of the marital artists on this forum stay away from bashing and focus more on sharing viewpoints based on their individual martial arts experiences.  That's why I enjoy this forum more than other MA forums.


I would certainly agree with you on everything you said there, but it doesn't take away the frustration and ultimate disappointment that instructors can cause! Regardless of whether it is fair or not fair to lable someone as a joker because that's only your opinion. It really annoys me I guess.


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Then maybe you haven't seen the rubbish I have?? I'm not the sort of person that can just stand around watching some joke of a karate instructor (just an example, no need for Chuck Norris to find me and hurt me ) dish out belts like they are candy and then tell the parents how great their kids are doing! Sorry but those kids might actually want to be a champion some day and this guy isn't gonna help!


Easy way to deal with that... Don't stand and watch get on with your own life let people do what they want again it's not your business to tell parents what to do with their own kids and anyway just because /you/ think someone's bad that doesn't mean it's true


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

Unknowingly incompetent is not the same as fraudulent.

And, everybody sucks to somebody.


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## Kababayan (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> I would certainly agree with you on everything you said there, but it doesn't take away the frustration and ultimate disappointment that instructors can cause! Regardless of whether it is fair or not fair to lable someone as a joker because that's only your opinion. It really annoys me I guess.



I think what annoys me most is when I am having a martial arts conversation with someone who obviously doesn't know much on the subject.  I refer to it as Blue Belt syndrome.  A person knows enough to think they know all.  I'm sure I was guilty of it too.  WIth your years in JKD you can probably see right through someone who doesn't have that much experience but talks up like they do.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Easy way to deal with that... Don't stand and watch get on with your own life let people do what they want again it's not your business to tell parents what to do with their own kids and anyway just because /you/ think someone's bad that doesn't mean it's true


I'm sorry but I just don't agree. Would you stand around and watch an elderly man or woman buy knock off double glazing at 3 X the price when there is a perfectly good store within zimmer frame distance offering superior quality for normal price?


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't agree. Would you stand around and watch an elderly man or woman buy knock off double glazing at 3 X the price when there is a perfectly good store within zimmer frame distance offering superior quality for normal price?


You're not getting the point...the point is In your opinion this instructors so bad but that doesn't mean it's true at all you could be wrong maybe in Other people's opinion you're rubbish and a fraud it's all subjective. Plus if the kids are happy and the parents are happy who cares its not your business to put down their club just get on with your own life and stop bothering other people about what they do


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I think what annoys me most is when I am having a martial arts conversation with someone who obviously doesn't know much on the subject.  I refer to it as Blue Belt syndrome.  A person knows enough to think they know all.  I'm sure I was guilty of it too.  WIth your years in JKD you can probably see right through someone who doesn't have that much experience but talks up like they do.


Plenty and you know due to my bad experiences I guess I'm maybe more burnt than others, which is why it gets to me. But at the same time if it smells like and looks like then it's probably haha


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Lol well i know I'm far from a genius, the names supposed to be satirical but looks like I've failed there like the Jokers I was trying to get other members own stories and thought on


We're a tough crowd, pun intended.


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I'm pretty sure most folks on MT will read it with the satirical intent intact. We're fairly satirical - sometimes intentionally.


Drop Bear wears a tie dyed gi.  Oh, you wrote satirical...  I thought you meant sartorial.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You're not getting the point...the point is In your opinion this instructors so bad but that doesn't mean it's true at all you could be wrong maybe in Other people's opinion you're rubbish and a fraud it's all subjective. Plus if the kids are happy and the parents are happy who cares its not your business to put down their club just get on with your own life and stop bothering other people about what they do


Look don't get me wrong, I'm no caped crusader flying around the uk foiling the plans of crap instructors and clubs. In my original comment I said (or at least think I did) that they were friends kids. Not just people's kids I don't know about. But that did if I took my lad somewhere and it was turd 8d probably walk out of there loudly voicing my opinion just my distaste for all those bad pastpast experiences


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Steve said:


> Drop Bear wears a tie dyed gi.  Oh, you wrote satirical...  I thought you meant sartorial.


Now that's funny I'd give you a pin for that tie sir, but...


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## Steve (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> You're not getting the point...the point is In your opinion this instructors so bad but that doesn't mean it's true at all you could be wrong maybe in Other people's opinion you're rubbish and a fraud it's all subjective. Plus if the kids are happy and the parents are happy who cares its not your business to put down their club just get on with your own life and stop bothering other people about what they do


Agreed.  My daughter is on the lamest track team ever right now, but she's having a good time and it's better than playing Mario kart on her Nintendo Switch.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  My daughter is on the lamest track team ever right now, but she's having a good time and it's better than playing Mario kart on her Nintendo Switch.


Ok, I can't disagree with that


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Ok, I can't disagree with that


We'll I can but between you and I, I am choosing not to lol


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Look don't get me wrong, I'm no caped crusader flying around the uk foiling the plans of crap instructors and clubs. In my original comment I said (or at least think I did) that they were friends kids. Not just people's kids I don't know about. But that did if I took my lad somewhere and it was turd 8d probably walk out of there loudly voicing my opinion just my distaste for all those bad pastpast experiences


Well then that'd make you extremely rude and disrespectful


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  My daughter is on the lamest track team ever right now, but she's having a good time and it's better than playing Mario kart on her Nintendo Switch.


Absolutely I mean let's be honest most kids in any martial art school are going to end up quitting whether it's good or bad school I'd say over 70% will end up quitting but if those kids enjoy themselves for the hour they're training get a decent amount of exercise, meet new people then that's great. People need to realise not everything revolves around being able to take someone in a fight there's more to life than fighting


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Well then that'd make you extremely rude and disrespectful


Well maybe I'll just stand around the next time it happens (hope gof the life of me it doesn't) and not say anything and let friends waste their money? At least I'd be polite though


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## Headhunter (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Well maybe I'll just stand around the next time it happens (hope gof the life of me it doesn't) and not say anything and let friends waste their money? At least I'd be polite though


In your opinion it's a waste of money but to them it isn't...and that's the point if they're happy with the service they're getting then it's none of your business if they ask your opinion sure then give it but if not let them get on with it as they're obviously happy with it and frankly if you start disrespecting an instructor in front of his class especially with his kids class then I'd have less respect for you than the teacher because to me that's the lowest thing you can do to disrespect a teacher while he's teaching a class


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## JoeRoganforPres (Apr 20, 2018)

Let's be honest, if you're not competing against others, you'll never know if they're con artist. If your interested in a style for styles sake ie history or just passion, then do it. Just do your research on the school/ instructor before hand. General rule, if they look like this guy you're an idiot and you deserve to be conned.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> In your opinion it's a waste of money but to them it isn't...and that's the point if they're happy with the service they're getting then it's none of your business if they ask your opinion sure then give it but if not let them get on with it as they're obviously happy with it and frankly if you start disrespecting an instructor in front of his class especially with his kids class then I'd have less respect for you than the teacher because to me that's the lowest thing you can do to disrespect a teacher while he's teaching a class


Hmm, I think you may not know to the same level of which I have seen! Done pretty dire stuff... Look I'm not a rude person and no I wouldn't be so disrespectful to say something during a class, you're taking me out of context and way too literally there.


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## JoeRoganforPres (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> In your opinion it's a waste of money but to them it isn't...and that's the point if they're happy with the service they're getting then it's none of your business if they ask your opinion sure then give it but if not let them get on with it as they're obviously happy with it and frankly if you start disrespecting an instructor in front of his class especially with his kids class then I'd have less respect for you than the teacher because to me that's the lowest thing you can do to disrespect a teacher while he's teaching a class


I think you both need to calm down.


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## Buka (Apr 20, 2018)

Just wanted to say - welcome to MartialTalk, Jkdgenius. 

Welcome to MartialTalk JoeRog4pres. Hope you guys both enjoy it.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 20, 2018)

JoeRoganforPres said:


> Let's be honest, if you're not competing against others, you'll never know if they're con artist. If your interested in a style for styles sake ie history or just passion, then do it. Just do your research on the school/ instructor before hand. General rule, if they look like this guy you're an idiot and you deserve to be conned.


Haha, now this is the kinda response I was hoping for!! Haha, I'm actually a little speechless after watching that! Haha... More of that please


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## Buka (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> It definitely happens.
> 
> By the normal standards for assessing martial arts "phonies", Helio Gracie and his brothers could have definitely qualified. Carlos Gracie got no more than two years of instruction from either Mitsuo Maeda or one of Maeda's students. (The family says Maeda, but the time line suggests a student.) There is no record I know of that Carlos was actually awarded any formal belt rank from Maeda. Carlos's brothers (including Helio) learned from Carlos.
> 
> ...



There ain't one God damn thing I like about that post, Tony. But I'm sure I'll get over it.


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## CB Jones (Apr 20, 2018)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  My daughter is on the lamest track team ever right now, but she's having a good time and it's better than playing Mario kart on her Nintendo Switch.



Mario Kart....

Mario Kart, Jagermeister, and chicks(not in that order) caused a lot of dropped classes back in my college days.


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## JoeRoganforPres (Apr 20, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Absolutely I mean let's be honest most kids in any martial art school are going to end up quitting whether it's good or bad school I'd say over 70% will end up quitting but if those kids enjoy themselves for the hour they're training get a decent amount of exercise, meet new people then that's great. People need to realise not everything revolves around being able to take someone in a fight there's more to life than fighting


Agree but then pick another hobby. And don't label it self defence.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I think what annoys me most is when I am having a martial arts conversation with someone who obviously doesn't know much on the subject.  I refer to it as Blue Belt syndrome.  A person knows enough to think they know all.  I'm sure I was guilty of it too.  WIth your years in JKD you can probably see right through someone who doesn't have that much experience but talks up like they do.



Oh god, I’m really glad there are no recordings of me from 25-30 years ago spouting off about martial arts matters that I thought I understood but really didn’t.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 20, 2018)

Buka said:


> There ain't one God damn thing I like about that post, Tony. But I'm sure I'll get over it.



I think you probably agree with this part, don't you?



Tony Dismukes said:


> Starting with that minimal level of instruction, they trained their asses off. They taught lots of students and did lots of sparring in class on a daily basis. They engaged in plenty of challenge matches with other martial artists - in the ring, in the dojo, on the street, on the beach. They picked the brains of other martial artists they encountered and stole any concept or technique which they found useful. They produced a ridiculous number of offspring and trained them (at least the males) from an early age to be fighters and competitors and teachers.
> 
> The result - a sophisticated and highly effective martial art and a family of top-notch professional martial artists.


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## Flying Crane (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Well maybe I'll just stand around the next time it happens (hope gof the life of me it doesn't) and not say anything and let friends waste their money? At least I'd be polite though


I wonder how many people are on the internet, bitching about you right now.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> I think what annoys me most is when I am having a martial arts conversation with someone who obviously doesn't know much on the subject.  I refer to it as Blue Belt syndrome.  A person knows enough to think they know all.  I'm sure I was guilty of it too.  WIth your years in JKD you can probably see right through someone who doesn't have that much experience but talks up like they do.


I know I was guilty of it. Less at blue belt (second belt in NGAA), but definitely by purple belt (4th belt in NGAA). By then, I was certain I knew tons. That was probably 20 years  ago now, and I know less now than I thought I knew then.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> I'm sorry but I just don't agree. Would you stand around and watch an elderly man or woman buy knock off double glazing at 3 X the price when there is a perfectly good store within zimmer frame distance offering superior quality for normal price?


Since I don't know much about any of that, yes. I'd be willing to admit maybe I don't understand what makes good glazing or whatever, nor what that person values in the product.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Plenty and you know due to my bad experiences I guess I'm maybe more burnt than others, which is why it gets to me. But at the same time if it smells like and looks like then it's probably haha


There's a school near me that I know is crap. They don't even look good in demos. But folks seem to like the school. If someone asks for my opinion, I'll tell them I think the technique is crap, but I've not seen anything that would cause harm in the school and folks seem to like training there. The only real harm is if folks think they're getting technique that is useful for a given purpose (I'm not sure the technique from that school is good for any purpose other than getting a body moving).


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## Danny T (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> By the normal standards for assessing martial arts "phonies", Helio Gracie and his brothers could have definitely qualified. Carlos Gracie got no more than two years of instruction from either Mitsuo Maeda or one of Maeda's students. (The family says Maeda, but the time line suggests a student.) There is no record I know of that Carlos was actually awarded any formal belt rank from Maeda. Carlos's brothers (including Helio) learned from Carlos.
> 
> This limited instruction and lack of formal rank did not stop Helio from publicly claiming that he and his brothers were the only legitimate jiu-jitsu instructors in Brazil.
> they did more than just making sketchy, grandiose claims to promote their art.
> ...


Yeah and there is the Bruce Lee guy for one. Just over 2 years WC training came to the U.S. began teaching a martial art he created using his own name a few years later he then created another one.

As Tony stated there are others.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 20, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Oh god, I’m really glad there are no recordings of me from 25-30 years ago spouting off about martial arts matters that I thought I understood but really didn’t.


There's at least one forum somewhere that has me pontificating about NGA's youth back almost that long ago, Tony. I hope never to come across those posts.


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## JR 137 (Apr 20, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Yeah and there is the Bruce Lee guy for one. Just over 2 years WC training came to the U.S. began teaching a martial art he created using his own name a few years later he then created another one.
> 
> As Tony stated there are others.


That guy’s only saving grace was he didn’t give himself a belt.


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> That guy’s only saving grace was he didn’t give himself a belt.



How did he keep his trousers up then?


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## Martial D (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> How did he keep his trousers up then?


Chinese suspenders.


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## Buka (Apr 21, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I think you probably agree with this part, don't you?



Don't go playing word games with me, brother. You warn the newcomers about fraud busting then you go fraud bust the entire Gracie lineage. Uh unh.


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

Martial D said:


> Chinese suspenders.



That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 21, 2018)

Buka said:


> Don't go playing word games with me, brother. You warn the newcomers about fraud busting then you go fraud bust the entire Gracie lineage. Uh unh.


Not at all. I gave an example of why the typical standards people often use for designating “frauds” can be inadequate to tell the whole story.

Suppose someone were to come on this forum asking advice on a dojo they were considering attending. We did some digging and discovered that the head instructor had less than 2 years of training under a qualified teacher (and no rank) in the style they were teaching, didn’t know (or misrepresented) even the most basic history of the art, but were presenting themselves as a great champion and expert. Most of us would advise the student to give the school a pass.

And if we did so, we might be leading them to miss out on getting in on the formative years of BJJ.

Tweak the story a little bit and we might be advising them to miss out on training with Bruce Lee or some other great martial artist.

Helio and his brothers may have started out with minimal qualifications and making wildly exaggerated claims about their accomplishments. But they did the work that very few people have to make themselves into the real deal and to help forge a martial art which is as effective as any on the planet.

Someone who judges an instructor entirely on their paper qualifications or the legitimacy of their claimed lineage may filter out a bunch of chumps, but they may also dismiss some of the greats as well. This is why it’s a good idea to realize such heuristics don’t tell you everything important. That is the point I was trying to make. (I suppose I could have used some other art to make the point, but the fact that my primary martial arts lineage *is* the Gracie lineage should suggest that I had some goal other than just trashing that lineage.)


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## Tez3 (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )




I've pointed this out before over the years, you have to post a photo of UK suspenders, they love that!


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## jkdgenius (Apr 21, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Yeah and there is the Bruce Lee guy for one. Just over 2 years WC training came to the U.S. began teaching a martial art he created using his own name a few years later he then created another one.
> 
> As Tony stated there are others.


The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> That brings up all sorts of wrong images (consider what suspenders are in the UK )


And here, braces are for straightening teeth. So, funny over here if we fix that sentence for you.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 21, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??


Most aren’t. (Then again, most conventionally qualified instructors aren’t either.)

I do examine an instructor’s qualifications as a first pass on evaluating whether it’s worth giving them a try. It’s a useful heuristic. I just think it’s good to remember that heuristics aren’t infallible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??


Tony's point is that the "how many" cuts both ways. How many people with "too little experience" are bad instructors? How many of the "greats" had too little experience?


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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> I've pointed this out before over the years, you have to post a photo of UK suspenders, they love that!



I'm not doing an image search for "Bruce Lee in suspenders"...


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 21, 2018)




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## hoshin1600 (Apr 21, 2018)

think about this ..Choki Motobu was pretty much self taught.  he was a hooligan who no teacher wanted as a student.  one teacher took pitty on him and taught him Naihanchi and passai.  the bulk of his martial art education was peeking through the fence at his older brother as he studied martial arts.

Kanbun Uechi and Kanryo Higaonna only trained for ten years before becoming "masters"  and founders of karate styles.  these same styles we consider the standard for what is legit.

heres a question ,,, we consider the old masters as great martial artists... we didnt train with them.  what if in todays standard they actually sucked?


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## _Simon_ (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> I'm not doing an image search for "Bruce Lee in suspenders"...


I tried, all i could find:


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## _Simon_ (Apr 21, 2018)




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## pdg (Apr 21, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I tried, all i could find:



Ok, now try with actual suspenders


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## _Simon_ (Apr 21, 2018)

pdg said:


> Ok, now try with actual suspenders
> 
> View attachment 21403


Ahhhhhhh okay hahaha, I think I'll pass XD


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## Headhunter (Apr 21, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??


Potentially all of them could be


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## jkdgenius (Apr 21, 2018)

Headhunter said:


> Potentially all of them could be


No chance!


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## Headhunter (Apr 21, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> No chance!


*facepalm* obviously they're not all going to be but they all have the /potential/ to be


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 21, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> heres a question ,,, we consider the old masters as great martial artists... we didnt train with them. what if in todays standard they actually sucked?


This is one of the issues with revering the old masters. They were people. I've heard people say (including some high-ranking instructors) that they will only do exactly what they were shown by their instructor, or what was included by the founder. In either of those cases, they assume that person was both infallible (nobody could possibly do something better - even a little bit) and done (they'd decided what they created was perfect and were no longer tweaking it). I find both of those assumptions dubious. I have a lot of respect for the folks who created styles that work well and lasted. I think most of them (the ones who weren't too egotistical) would be quite happy to see their creation carried forward by people who were tweaking it, always looking to make it better and more applicable.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Not at all. I gave an example of why the typical standards people often use for designating “frauds” can be inadequate to tell the whole story.
> 
> Suppose someone were to come on this forum asking advice on a dojo they were considering attending. We did some digging and discovered that the head instructor had less than 2 years of training under a qualified teacher (and no rank) in the style they were teaching, didn’t know (or misrepresented) even the most basic history of the art, but were presenting themselves as a great champion and expert. Most of us would advise the student to give the school a pass.
> 
> ...



You're right, sorry for the reaction. I get protective of those that matter to me. Especially in a thread with a thread title like this one. I don't really like seeing their name in it, it's out of place in my opinion.

My sincerest apologies for jumping at you, Tony.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> The only problem is out of all the bad instructors how many are you saying might be the Bruce Lee's of the world or Gracie's??





gpseymour said:


> Tony's point is that the "how many" cuts both ways. How many people with "too little experience" are bad instructors? How many of the "greats" had too little experience?



Another observation - it's true that most instructors with underwhelming conventional qualifications aren't the exceptions who turn out to be great masters. (Neither are most instructors with solid conventional qualifications.) However, many of them do end up being reasonably competent middle-of-the road martial artists who can hold their own with better credentialed instructors. I've encountered this situation more than once.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> think about this ..Choki Motobu was pretty much self taught.  he was a hooligan who no teacher wanted as a student.  one teacher took pitty on him and taught him Naihanchi and passai.  the bulk of his martial art education was peeking through the fence at his older brother as he studied martial arts.
> 
> Kanbun Uechi and Kanryo Higaonna only trained for ten years before becoming "masters"  and founders of karate styles.  these same styles we consider the standard for what is legit.
> 
> heres a question ,,, we consider the old masters as great martial artists... we didnt train with them.  what if in todays standard they actually sucked?


On a related note, many people like to valorize the founders of their art as paragons of moral virtue. Besides being great martial artists, we like to imagine that they were peaceful, humble, and honest.

Often this is not the case.

If they were peaceful, they would be less likely to have the experience with violence that might give a realistic foundation to the art.

If they were humble, they would be less likely to place their own judgment of how a martial art should be constructed over that of their predecessors.

If they were honest, they might be at a disadvantage in popularizing their new art compared to less scrupulous self-promoters.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> we consider the old masters as great martial artists... we didnt train with them. what if in todays standard they actually sucked?



"If I have seen further than others, it is because I have stood on the shoulders of giants." - Isaac Newton.

In cases where a martial art has continued to progress based on real world testing, the old masters would probably be considered technical deficient compared to subsequent generations who were able to build on their work.

If you used a time machine to pluck a 25 year old Helio Gracie from 1938, brought him to the present day, and entered him into any high-level BJJ or MMA competition he would get his butt kicked. The art has just progressed too far. On the other hand, if you left him here and allowed him to study and train for a year, he would likely do pretty well. He was smart, hard-working, and tough as nails. If he could accomplish as much as he did with the minimal instruction available to him at the time then he would be a force to reckon with given the information and training opportunities of today.

In contrast, I doubt that many modern practitioners of sword arts could compare with the masters of an age when actual life-or-death sword fights were a common occurrence. Theory, tradition, drilling, and sparring with protective gear are not the same as the experience of actually cutting down someone who was trying to kill you with a long piece of sharpened steel.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

Buka said:


> You're right, sorry for the reaction. I get protective of those that matter to me. Especially in a thread with a thread title like this one. I don't really like seeing their name in it, it's out of place in my opinion.


I understand your reaction, but I think the Helio and Carlos are really good examples for making my point. If we were talking about Sensei Tim Tea from the White Dragon Shaolin Jutsu school down the block (names tweaked to protect the possibly guilty), then we could have a bunch of "is not" "is too" arguments over whether he was the real deal or a fraud. In contrast, BJJ and the Gracie family have proven themselves so that even critics and haters have to acknowledge their legitimacy. When you combine that empirically proven effectiveness of the art and practitioners with the historically documented fact that Carlos and Helio matched the profile of the sort of instructor we usually dismiss as a fraud ... it suggests that maybe we shouldn't always be in a rush to judgment.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> When you combine that empirically proven effectiveness of the art and practitioners with the historically documented fact that Carlos and Helio matched the profile of the sort of instructor we usually dismiss as a fraud ... it suggests that maybe we shouldn't always be in a rush to judgment.



That's something I'll be thinking about all day.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 22, 2018)

jkdgenius said:


> Then maybe you haven't seen the rubbish I have?? *I'm not the sort of person that can just stand around watching some joke of a karate instructor* (just an example, no need for Chuck Norris to find me and hurt me ) d*ish out belts like they are candy and then tell the parents how great their kids are doing! Sorry but those kids might actually want to be a champion some day and this guy isn't gonna help*!



Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector?   Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors.   So yeah I do know the difference.  However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is ), compared to the younger TKD high kickers out there.   It's very easy to write me (us old timers) off.   If you look in my school you'll see no trophies, no 30 year old grand champion ship title belts etc. etc.  Just an old guy doing the daily grind of teaching 5 nights days a week plus getting in extra training when I can.

However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded.   From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well.  Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?

Listen the kids who are the underdogs, who have learning issues, who have discipline, physical challenges are the ones who need the martial arts.   They aren't going to be the next Chuck Norris, or world champion, they might not be my next black belts, they might not be there in class tomorrow, who knows.   There is nothing wrong with celebrating or letting their parents know when they have had a good day in class, of telling the kid that I'm proud of them for getting through a kata something they have been struggling with for several classes.   What some kids master quite easily others will struggle for weeks and months, some kids have great athletic ability while others don't.  But both can be giving all that they have towards trying to learn the technique.

As an outsider you wouldn't know the struggles or the back story of the students, as an instructor I do (for my students that is). For an outsider or a guest observer to be telling my student's parents as you loudly leave the dojo that this or that is crap, just because you don't think what they are doing or being shown is worthy.   Like I said who appointed you this QA position for all karate schools.   When you are a JKD guy at that.  You don't even do karate.  

My students might not be a world champion some day; sometimes though it is enough just to let them have a positive experience to the end of a hellish day at school or at home.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> I understand your reaction, but I think the Helio and Carlos are really good examples for making my point. If we were talking about Sensei Tim Tea from the White Dragon Shaolin Jutsu school down the block (names tweaked to protect the possibly guilty), then we could have a bunch of "is not" "is too" arguments over whether he was the real deal or a fraud. *In contrast, BJJ and the Gracie family have proven themselves so that even critics and haters have to acknowledge their legitimacy. When you combine that empirically proven effectiveness of the art and practitioners with the historically documented fact that Carlos and Helio matched the profile of the sort of instructor we usually dismiss as a fraud ... it suggests that maybe we shouldn't always be in a rush to judgment.*



I totally agree here, I believe all to often we judge people based on their lineage/style, age, fitness level, etc. etc. not on what they can do or even what they can bring to the table such as knowledge and experience, teaching ability etc. etc.


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## Buka (Apr 22, 2018)

Making me wish I had a kid, Mark. Just so I could send her to your school.


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## Mark Lynn (Apr 22, 2018)

*Con Artist
*
1) Years ago I studied with an instructor who was developing a blended system, between Wing Chun, Gojo ryu, and Balintawak Escrima.  I had an interest in the FMAs so I joined.  After finding out what was going on I stuck around to learn the Balintawak, soon I was invited to join the private backyard training sessions with an older gentleman from the Philippines who was teaching the instructor and some interested students.   Well the instructor got impatient and decided (as he confided in me) to trick the older man into showing him/us the next level by countering his technique.   The Filipino instructor quit teaching us after one lesson of him trying to trick him.   I quit right afterwards.   The instructor was charging us to learn from him while he was taking lessons from the older Filipino master, but because the Filipino master had his time table which didn't line up with the instructor's he decided to try and "trick him" as if he was smarter than the master instructor.  We never saw the Balintawak instructor again.

2) A Korean master had a reputation where he would blow into town and rent a school.  Get a senior student to pay extra money for him to pass on the secrets of the style in the form of private lessons, raise that student up in rank (well before normal time) then have that student buy the school and move on.   Unaware of this I went to the school to check it out, sat down with the master as he tried to tell me his art was 2000 years old and he has trained in multitudes of different styles including every Korean Art I ever hear of, Shaolin Kung Fu, and JKD.  Even though it was in the 1980's alarm bells were going off.  As I got up to leave the guy was insistent that I buy his over priced books to further my education.  I felt like we were going to get into it as I tried and did leave (the only time I felt threatened in a school).   I heard about his method of operation a couple of years later from my karate instructor, and actually met a co-worker who told me he joined that school evidently right after the guy sold the school (which had only been in the area for a couple of years) to one of the top brown belts (along with a black belt promotion).


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Another observation - it's true that most instructors with underwhelming conventional qualifications aren't the exceptions who turn out to be great masters. (Neither are most instructors with solid conventional qualifications.) However, many of them do end up being reasonably competent middle-of-the road martial artists who can hold their own with better credentialed instructors. I've encountered this situation more than once.


Agreed. Credentialing (and its analogs) are often more a cue of what the person may have learned, than how well they may have learned it or be able to teach it. By that, I mean that knowing someone has their BB in a given art will give me an idea of the type of material (based on the style) and the amount of the material (based on the rank achieved). I've known people who trained a shorter period in NGA who were better fighters than me, and some who trained longer and aren't as good in that area. BJJ is a very good place to find folks with less-than-stellar credentials (meaning relatively low rank) who are actually pretty danged competent, including some nifty teachers.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector?   Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors.   So yeah I do know the difference.  However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is ), compared to the younger TKD high kickers out there.   It's very easy to write me (us old timers) off.   If you look in my school you'll see no trophies, no 30 year old grand champion ship title belts etc. etc.  Just an old guy doing the daily grind of teaching 5 nights days a week plus getting in extra training when I can.
> 
> However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded.   From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well.  Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?
> 
> ...


This is something I struggle with when I think about teaching kids. I want ranks to mean what I want them to mean, but I'm not sure that serves some of the kids who can best benefit from the experience. When I taught at my instructor's school, kids got a lot out of their training, though the ranks didn't mean what I want them to. As I mature in my thinking on this, I suspect the problem is just that I want them to mean something that's not all that useful for teaching kids.


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## pdg (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is something I struggle with when I think about teaching kids. I want ranks to mean what I want them to mean, but I'm not sure that serves some of the kids who can best benefit from the experience. When I taught at my instructor's school, kids got a lot out of their training, though the ranks didn't mean what I want them to. As I mature in my thinking on this, I suspect the problem is just that I want them to mean something that's not all that useful for teaching kids.



If you have a certain personal criteria for what rank means what, and children aren't going to be able to fulfill those then you'll have to introduce a set of junior ranks based on a different and/or restricted criteria set if you want to teach to children.

The thing to watch for is when the child gets to an age where they can be held to (your) adult standards. If you've already taught with a restricted set you'll be asking them to effectively start over with material they've (in their mind) already covered, which will likely cause retention problems...


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This is something I struggle with when I think about teaching kids. I want ranks to mean what I want them to mean, but I'm not sure that serves some of the kids who can best benefit from the experience. When I taught at my instructor's school, kids got a lot out of their training, though the ranks didn't mean what I want them to. As I mature in my thinking on this, I suspect the problem is just that I want them to mean something that's not all that useful for teaching kids.



Set your standards.....whoever meets those standards earns the rank....whoever doesn't, doesn't.  No need to over-complicate it.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Well the instructor got impatient and decided (as he confided in me) to trick the older man into showing him/us the next level by countering his technique. The Filipino instructor quit teaching us after one lesson of him trying to trick him.


I'm not a fan of an approach to teaching where the counter to a counter to a technique I am teaching would be a secret until the student reached some particular "level" or followed a certain timetable. Definitely not a fan of the idea that attempting to counter my technique would be considered a trick or an offense.

When I teach a particular technique in class, I always look for an opportunity to execute that technique in sparring that same class. I expect my sparring partner to try countering it. If I succeed, it gives them confidence that the move can work and helps show them how I deal with counters. If I don't succeed, it gives me clues as to what I need to improve in my own execution.

Of course, when I'm demonstrating a move to the class for instructional purposes, I don't necessarily want my uke trying to shut down the technique. Even so, it can make for a good teaching moment. If the attempted counter is ineffective, I show how I just carry on with the technique without being stopped. If the counter is effective, I explain how that particular scenario requires a different technique (possibly showing the alternate technique quickly in passing) and I show the correct energy the uke should feed in order to allow the technique we are currently drilling.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

pdg said:


> If you have a certain personal criteria for what rank means what, and children aren't going to be able to fulfill those then you'll have to introduce a set of junior ranks based on a different and/or restricted criteria set if you want to teach to children.
> 
> The thing to watch for is when the child gets to an age where they can be held to (your) adult standards. If you've already taught with a restricted set you'll be asking them to effectively start over with material they've (in their mind) already covered, which will likely cause retention problems...


I've always worked with rank differentiation - youth ranks vs. adult. In my case, I'm unlikely to teach kids younger than say 10 or 12, since I don't want smaller teens even in the adult classes (too much disparity for realistic grappling). If I ever brought in younger kids, I'd add another set of ranks. In all likelihood, I'd use subsets of the adult material for youth ranks, so if they moved up to adult ranks, they'd have less to learn. I wouldn't bother making them re-do old material if they can pass it at the appropriate level.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 22, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Set your standards.....whoever meets those standards earns the rank....whoever doesn't, doesn't.  No need to over-complicate it.


I think my standards are probably unrealistic for most kids. That was my only point.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 22, 2018)

Here are a few, although the guy running this channel spends most of his time on Frank Dux.


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## CB Jones (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think my standards are probably *unrealistic for most kids*. That was my only point.



Sounds great.

Unrealistic for most kids, but attainable for the select few with great drive.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> BJJ is a very good place to find folks with less-than-stellar credentials (meaning relatively low rank) who are actually pretty danged competent, including some nifty teachers.


"Less than stellar" is a relative term.

I think part of the problem (aside from those people who deliberately lie about their background and qualifications) is understanding what a rank actually means.

As has been repeated many times on this forum by many people, a rank certification is nothing more than a statement by somebody (or somebodies) that a certain person has achieved certain requirements relative to the art in question.

If you don't know what those requirements are or why you should respect the opinion of the issuing authority, then the rank tells you nothing about the martial artist in question.

I'll use my own dan ranks as examples.

*I hold a black belt in BJJ.* This rank basically means that Mike O'Donnell and Carlson Gracie Jr were willing to put their reputations behind the idea that I am an expert* in grappling (with a focus on ground fighting) and am a fully qualified instructor in the art of BJJ.

Why should you give weight to the opinions of those two? A little investigation will reveal that both men have fought professionally in MMA and done well in grappling competition. Both have coached successful MMA and BJJ competitors. Mike's knowledge and skills are vouched for (via rank) by Carlson Jr. Carlson Jr's knowledge and skills are vouched for (via rank) by his father, Carlson Gracie senior.

Why should you give weight to the opinion of Carlson Gracie senior? Some research will show that he was the greatest jiu-jitsu fighter of his generation. In addition, he trained many of the top MMA and BJJ competitors of the following generation.

Carlson's knowledge and skills were vouched for (via rank) by his father, Carlos Gracie. Given his accomplishments, he didn't really need that validation. If anything, Carlos is validated by Carlson's achievements.

*("Expert" is a subjective term, but some research will show that the rank typically corresponds to what a moderately talented person could achieve with 10-15 years of hard work and thousands of hours of sparring. Expectations include a consistently demonstrated ability to handle bigger, stronger opponents on the mat and an in-depth knowledge of technique.)

*I hold a black belt in a style of American kickboxing*. This means that my skills are vouched for by Oscar Kallet.

What skills and why should you care about Oscar's word on the matter? That's a bit harder to nail down.

Most kickboxing gyms don't use a belt rank system, so that's no help. Oscar himself only used a belt system for a few years and awarded black belt to a handful of individuals, so I can't even say exactly what the standards were, other than "about where I was at the time." I could spar somewhat competently, I went through a tough test, and I had a couple of amateur fights.

As far as Oscar's qualifications to judge my qualifications: he was a competent professional kickboxer whose highest professional achievement was a New York State championship. (Under the auspices of either the WKA or PKA,  I forget which.) He has a black belt under Ray Casal (better known for coaching boxing than kickboxing these days) and instructor licenses in Muay Thai under Chai Sirisute (founder of the TBA) and Sakasem Kanthawong (multiple time World Champion). If you've done Muay Thai or MMA around the Dayton area, you probably know Oscar. Otherwise you probably don't have a good way to validate his judgment.

*I also hold a black belt in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu* (or "ninjutsu" as it was marketed at the time). This means that about 30 years ago Larry Turner and Kevin Schneider judged I was deserving of the rank.

What does that rank mean? Good question. Rank standards in the Bujinkan are notoriously inconsistent and even higher dan ranks have sometimes been awarded to people with ... limited training time and technical ability (to be polite). Kevin and Larry are verifiable high-ranked instructors in the Bujinkan, although they held much lower ranks back then. The best guess you could probably make concerning my rank is that I could demonstrate the fundamentals of the Bujinkan system with a compliant training  partner to the standards of a couple of instructors who had been training for about 8 years themselves at that point.

Three arts, three very different meanings for the same belt color.

In some cases, it could be just about impossible for an outsider to even make a good guess as to what a given rank might mean. If you aren't acquainted with the standards for a given art or instructor, then you have no idea of what you might infer from an instructors rank. If you can't discover who awarded the rank, then you can't judge what it means. If you don't know anything about the expertise of the person awarding the rank, then you don't know what it means.  We won't even consider ranks which are self-awarded or awarded by "peers" outside the art. (Okay, they mean "I think I'm awesome" or "my buddies think I'm awesome." This may be true, but we have no way of knowing unless we have some independent method for evaluating the person's ability, which makes the rank itself redundant.)


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 22, 2018)

Talking about my time in the Bujinkan reminded me of another example of the variable meaning of ranks.

It's not uncommon to see snarky comments about the plethora of martial arts instructors who have apparently created their own systems just so they can claim the coveted rank of 10th dan as the founder of the art.

I occasionally run across mention of some of my old training partners from the Bujinkan. Those who have stayed within the organization are mostly *15th* dan now. As far as I can tell, the average time to that rank (which doesn't even exist in most arts) is probably about 25 years.


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## jkdgenius (Apr 23, 2018)

Mark Lynn said:


> Excuse me but who made you the kids QA inspector?   Yes I've seen plenty of rubbish over my 30+ years in the martial arts as well as getting to train with a lot of high level instructors.   So yeah I do know the difference.  However after teaching steadily for the past 12 years (plus about 5 years total time back in the 90's/2000 era) if some one takes a look at me now you'll see a over weight, older, middle aged guy who doesn't kick anymore (well high that is ), compared to the younger TKD high kickers out there.   It's very easy to write me (us old timers) off.   If you look in my school you'll see no trophies, no 30 year old grand champion ship title belts etc. etc.  Just an old guy doing the daily grind of teaching 5 nights days a week plus getting in extra training when I can.
> 
> However your comment about handing out belts like candy and telling the parents how great their kids are doing is why I've responded.   From an outsider point of view you look at some of my students and you might think why am I telling that kid he doing great or that parent that the kid is doing well.  Their technique is wobbly, their attention isn't focused, the kata looks off somewhat, why is the instructor high fiving the kid for getting through it?
> 
> ...


Mark you have taken me out of context and your opinion isn't talking about the same issue I am! If you read my posts properly then you'd see I was just using karate as an example (but I have actually studied Shotokan either way so thank you for judging a book by its cover). I am not on about kids that have learning disabilities or aren't as keen etc etc, that was just a ridiculous comment! Again read properly and you'd see I was on about friends children and specified about the fact that these are kids that do want to grow to be good in competition. I have no qwarms about how you decide to reach out about you not having competition fighters in your school, personally I'd not choose to train in a school like that myself as I like to get a beat down every now and then, only thing that keeps you sharp! Please don't take that out of context again, use brain, engage humour receptors?? Nobody made me anything, but like you choose to run your school the way you do, I choose to train at schools that don't run the way yours does.


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## Buka (Apr 23, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Here are a few, although the guy running this channel spends most of his time on Frank Dux.



I watched that at work tonight.  [shhh, don't squeal] 
I don't usually feel this, but the guy narrating....I so wanted to push him into a swimming pool. And maybe not let him out.


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## Buka (Apr 23, 2018)

I have all kinds of awesome legitimate rank. I've been promoted in the kitchen of my old house. Been promoted at a tournament. Was originally promoted to Black Belt by a phony baloney fool. Just got promoted by mail a couple months ago. [actually, on the phone]

I be rocking.


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 23, 2018)

even totally legit styles and people get promoted under some rather shady circumstances.  ive been witness to a high level promotion where the recipient paid an Okinawan master to come to the US and give a seminar and be promoted.  this was not his instructor so what right did he have to promote him other than the monetary Fee?
rank is a funny thing. its total BS but at the same time we all need the credential and look down or up to people based on their rank and how and when they attained it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> Sounds great.
> 
> Unrealistic for most kids, but attainable for the select few with great drive.


That would be accurate. The issue is that you need either a high reputation of working with kids, or a lot of students, to find those few. A small program using that standard is likely to have only a few students, who remain at their ranks until their teens. It might be better just to not have ranks for kids.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> "Less than stellar" is a relative term.



Agreed. My point about BJJ was that in many systems I wouldn't expect a blue belt (or whatever the first colored belt is in the system) to be as capable at instructing as many BJJ blue belts are. As a credential, the blue belt doesn't work well (unless, of course, someone knows this about BJJ). I used the term "stellar" purposely, as the highest level credentials in BJJ are rarified - much more so than in some systems.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Talking about my time in the Bujinkan reminded me of another example of the variable meaning of ranks.
> 
> It's not uncommon to see snarky comments about the plethora of martial arts instructors who have apparently created their own systems just so they can claim the coveted rank of 10th dan as the founder of the art.
> 
> I occasionally run across mention of some of my old training partners from the Bujinkan. Those who have stayed within the organization are mostly *15th* dan now. As far as I can tell, the average time to that rank (which doesn't even exist in most arts) is probably about 25 years.


Some of that has gone on in groups that broke away from the NGAA (Nihon Goshin Aikido Association). For decades, NGA only had 5 dan ranks (I'm unsure whether this is the original setup, or simply the result of that being the highest rank attained by the NGAA head before the retirement of the head of the art). The head of the NGAA added a 6th at one point, but never used it (so, effectively still 5 dans). Some breakaway groups converted to a 10-dan system, raising their own ranks (or each other's, more accurately). I know of none yet who've gone to 6th or higher, but it's just a matter of time.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 23, 2018)

Buka said:


> I watched that at work tonight.  [shhh, don't squeal]
> I don't usually feel this, but the guy narrating....I so wanted to push him into a swimming pool. And maybe not let him out.



Yeah, his voice is annoying. Plus he doesn't know how to not catch his VERY frequent and deep inhalations on the microphone. Still, some of his comments are pretty damn comical.


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## pdg (Apr 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> ive been witness to a high level promotion where the recipient paid an Okinawan master to come to the US and give a seminar and be promoted.  this was not his instructor so what right did he have to promote him other than the monetary Fee?



None of my promotions (sub dan devel so far) have been awarded by my instructor - an instructor from a different school comes in for the colour gradings.

Dan level gradings are done at an entirely different location, by a panel of examiners who we've not been instructed by.

Two ways of looking at it - one is that the examiner doesn't get to see your 'usual' performance so they don't know if you're consistent.

Other way? It removes bias (/favouritism) and helps somewhat in maintaining consistency of dan holders.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> None of my promotions (sub dan devel so far) have been awarded by my instructor - an instructor from a different school comes in for the colour gradings.
> 
> Dan level gradings are done at an entirely different location, by a panel of examiners who we've not been instructed by.
> 
> ...


I think this latter one is the reason some systems/organizations opt for testing panels beyond a certain point. Personally, I prefer instructor-awarded ranks, because those are the folks who should know the real story. Yeah, you'll get more variability between schools that way, and probably some who play favorites (in both giving and denying), but that's hard to avoid.


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## pdg (Apr 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I think this latter one is the reason some systems/organizations opt for testing panels beyond a certain point. Personally, I prefer instructor-awarded ranks, because those are the folks who should know the real story. Yeah, you'll get more variability between schools that way, and probably some who play favorites (in both giving and denying), but that's hard to avoid.



I don't take issue with either process, if it's handled fairly.

The only problem with instructor awarded rank is if/when the student equals or betters the instructor - are they then 'qualified' to promote someone past themselves?

In our system, someone can only promote another to 2-3 grades below their own (7th-9th are I believe pretty much honorary ranks awarded by committee) - I suppose the reason being they should then have adequate experience to assess the candidate fully rather than judging things they're still effectively learning themselves.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> I don't take issue with either process, if it's handled fairly.
> 
> The only problem with instructor awarded rank is if/when the student equals or betters the instructor - are they then 'qualified' to promote someone past themselves?
> 
> In our system, someone can only promote another to 2-3 grades below their own (7th-9th are I believe pretty much honorary ranks awarded by committee) - I suppose the reason being they should then have adequate experience to assess the candidate fully rather than judging things they're still effectively learning themselves.


I'm not familiar with a situation where that's possible (just not within my experience). In the NGAA, it takes shodan to teach, and nidan is the last technical rank. To reach that rank, you have to train under a sandan or higher (usually traveling several times a year), and it's that sandan that does the promotion. In my curriculum, it takes shodan to get certified as a full instructor (award rank), and there are no higher technical ranks (in fact, no ranks beyond that - just instructor certification and senior instructor certification).

I know some styles/systems have technical requirements at several dan levels, and some recognize lower dan ranks as instructors. I don't see how someone would get the curriculum for those higher levels from someone who hasn't reached them, so they'd have to train under someone else for that.


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## Michele123 (Apr 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> That would be accurate. The issue is that you need either a high reputation of working with kids, or a lot of students, to find those few. A small program using that standard is likely to have only a few students, who remain at their ranks until their teens. It might be better just to not have ranks for kids.



I kind of like this idea.  Though come to think of in, my daughter likes to earn things so one of the driving factors for her right now is to earn rank.  I'm not a huge fan of the kids holding the same rank as adults, much for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread.  I do like that, for the little kids (4-7) at our school,  the regular ranks are broken down into thirds.  It takes much longer for them to test for regular ranks, but gives them validation for their hard work.  My daughter has an orange stripe on her white belt.  Essentially she is a white belt that basically knows 1/3 of the material to get to orange belt (the next full rank).  She still had to study and go through a test to earn that rank.  She is very proud of herself for getting there.  I watched her test and was actually surprised at how much she knew.  However, white belts are not expected to have much power in their techniques.  They just need to understand the basic movements.  This age group is not able to progress past two full belts until they age up into the youth class.  They have to be old enough and strong enough to do the requirements for higher level ranks.  

I do feel like the youth (7-14) probably don’t have as stringent requirements as they should, but I feel the same way about the adult colored belts.  It seems, in this style/school/association that things don’t get really good until 1st/2nd Dan.  At least from what I can observe as a 7th gup and using the lenses from my memory as a 1st Dan in a shotokan offshoot called "shutokan"  (16 years ago) that didn’t allow 1st Dan testing until the age of 18.  Though this is all much better than the McDojo we tried at first where the kids got a (electrical tape) stripe for every few classes they attended then a belt after a number of stripes.  No proficiency needed.

It’s certainly a difficult thing to determine.  I really like the idea of no ranks for kids, but I don’t know if that would hold the attention of many children. My daughter is the type that likes to see progress and achievement (much like I was in that way).  If not belts or a separate ranking system altogether, there might need to be something in place for the kids to work towards.

What age do you allow people to start training at now?


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## hoshin1600 (Apr 23, 2018)

pdg said:


> None of my promotions (sub dan devel so far) have been awarded by my instructor - an instructor from a different school comes in for the colour gradings.
> 
> Dan level gradings are done at an entirely different location, by a panel of examiners who we've not been instructed by.
> 
> ...


what i was describing is a bit different.  this was a high level ..say 7th or 8th Dan grade.  what you are talking about is a testing board, or some such situation but in that situation your own instructor put you up and recommended you for that rank. he is just was not officiating the test for neutrality.   this was totally different. this was a blatant side stepping of the student teacher relationship and pretty much just paying someone who is a high rank to come in and promote you because you want it and are willing to pay for it.


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## JR 137 (Apr 23, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. My point about BJJ was that in many systems I wouldn't expect a blue belt (or whatever the first colored belt is in the system) to be as capable at instructing as many BJJ blue belts are. As a credential, the blue belt doesn't work well (unless, of course, someone knows this about BJJ). I used the term "stellar" purposely, as the highest level credentials in BJJ are rarified - much more so than in some systems.


A former coworker and good friend of mine started training at a BJJ school a few months before I left the area.  One night he was telling me that his instructor was waiting for a black belt to show up at the dojo because a lot of people were due for promotion, but the CI couldn’t promote them because he wasn’t a black belt himself (only black belts could promote anyone for any rank).  He told me his CI was a purple belt.

I was dumbfounded by it.  My only reference was in systems like karate where the CI norm is a 3rd dan.  He told me the CI also has a 4th dan in judo, which I said “ok, he’s qualified to teach judo, but BJJ and judo aren’t the same thing.”  After he explained the whole ranking system and average time in grade in BJJ, I got it.  With the number of years the guy had in BJJ, he’d be around 2nd dan in my organization - at 7 years.  3rd dan would be about 10 years. Doing the math: 5 years to shodan, + 2 years until nidan = 7 years if everything progresses exactly on time, which it rarely does.

7 years of experience seems adequate to run your own school.  Purple belt just doesn’t.


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## pdg (Apr 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> what i was describing is a bit different.  this was a high level ..say 7th or 8th Dan grade.  what you are talking about is a testing board, or some such situation but in that situation your own instructor put you up and recommended you for that rank. he is just was not officiating the test for neutrality.   this was totally different. this was a blatant side stepping of the student teacher relationship and pretty much just paying someone who is a high rank to come in and promote you because you want it and are willing to pay for it.



Yes, it is different then.

While an instructor in ours can't promote above themselves (or within a couple of levels), they can teach to their own level (and tbf, most of the stuff above about 3rd seems evolutionary so can be self developed to an extent) I believe it's still their responsibility to make the recommendation.


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## Tony Dismukes (Apr 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> ive been witness to a high level promotion where the recipient paid an Okinawan master to come to the US and give a seminar and be promoted. this was not his instructor so what right did he have to promote him other than the monetary Fee?


The visiting instructor has the same "right" to offer a rank as anyone else. As I mentioned in an earlier post, any rank credential is just somebody offering their assurance that a person meets certain standards within a given art. The question is - what is that assurance worth?

I could issue someone a rank certificate in karate, but it would be meaningless since I have no significant background or expertise in any form of karate.

I could issue a rank in BJJ to someone that I just observed at a seminar. This would be "legitimate" in that I have significant BJJ experience and my expertise to make such judgments is recognized by the BJJ community. However my assurances on the matter would be much less informed than they would be if the practitioner was a personal student of mine.

Even if I knew a BJJ practitioner and their abilities well, I would not offer to promote someone who was an active student of another instructor. Not because the rank would be invalid, but because accepting it would cause friction between the student and their teacher. Best to have one person responsible for tracking the student's progress.

In some systems, it is common practice to have students tested for rank by a panel of senior instructors from outside their school. I can understand the arguments for such an approach, but I think it leads to a less informed judgment of a practitioner's capabilities than promotion based on an instructor's day-in and day-out observation of the student's performance.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

Michele123 said:


> I kind of like this idea.  Though come to think of in, my daughter likes to earn things so one of the driving factors for her right now is to earn rank.  I'm not a huge fan of the kids holding the same rank as adults, much for the reasons that have already been stated in this thread.  I do like that, for the little kids (4-7) at our school,  the regular ranks are broken down into thirds.  It takes much longer for them to test for regular ranks, but gives them validation for their hard work.  My daughter has an orange stripe on her white belt.  Essentially she is a white belt that basically knows 1/3 of the material to get to orange belt (the next full rank).  She still had to study and go through a test to earn that rank.  She is very proud of herself for getting there.  I watched her test and was actually surprised at how much she knew.  However, white belts are not expected to have much power in their techniques.  They just need to understand the basic movements.  This age group is not able to progress past two full belts until they age up into the youth class.  They have to be old enough and strong enough to do the requirements for higher level ranks.
> 
> I do feel like the youth (7-14) probably don’t have as stringent requirements as they should, but I feel the same way about the adult colored belts.  It seems, in this style/school/association that things don’t get really good until 1st/2nd Dan.  At least from what I can observe as a 7th gup and using the lenses from my memory as a 1st Dan in a shotokan offshoot called "shutokan"  (16 years ago) that didn’t allow 1st Dan testing until the age of 18.  Though this is all much better than the McDojo we tried at first where the kids got a (electrical tape) stripe for every few classes they attended then a belt after a number of stripes.  No proficiency needed.
> 
> ...


Currently, I only have "adult" classes (every time I say that, I think it sounds like "adult" in "adult film"). I'd allow age 15+ in, though I've never had anyone under about 23 show up. If I opened classes to "youth" or "teens", that would be about ages 12-15. I have a hard time imagining myself teaching anyone under about age 8. When I was teaching kids classes, my instructor had only just started allowing kids under that age into the school. Every time I've watched classes for 4-7 year olds, it doesn't look like fun to teach.

I wonder about the rank issue. When I played soccer (11 years), obviously there were no ranks. And kids often played for several years. Of course, that included a game every week, and lots of running about and doing soccery stuff at practice, so that might be the difference. Perhaps, absent the play and constant games, ranks provide something to focus on.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> what i was describing is a bit different.  this was a high level ..say 7th or 8th Dan grade.  what you are talking about is a testing board, or some such situation but in that situation your own instructor put you up and recommended you for that rank. he is just was not officiating the test for neutrality.   this was totally different. this was a blatant side stepping of the student teacher relationship and pretty much just paying someone who is a high rank to come in and promote you because you want it and are willing to pay for it.


A fair bit of that went on in the late 70's and early 80's. My second (and primary) Shotokan instructor (also my Judo instructor) left the Karate organization he was in because he'd seen people basically buying rank from high-ranking members of the organization.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 23, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> A former coworker and good friend of mine started training at a BJJ school a few months before I left the area.  One night he was telling me that his instructor was waiting for a black belt to show up at the dojo because a lot of people were due for promotion, but the CI couldn’t promote them because he wasn’t a black belt himself (only black belts could promote anyone for any rank).  He told me his CI was a purple belt.
> 
> I was dumbfounded by it.  My only reference was in systems like karate where the CI norm is a 3rd dan.  He told me the CI also has a 4th dan in judo, which I said “ok, he’s qualified to teach judo, but BJJ and judo aren’t the same thing.”  After he explained the whole ranking system and average time in grade in BJJ, I got it.  With the number of years the guy had in BJJ, he’d be around 2nd dan in my organization - at 7 years.  3rd dan would be about 10 years. Doing the math: 5 years to shodan, + 2 years until nidan = 7 years if everything progresses exactly on time, which it rarely does.
> 
> 7 years of experience seems adequate to run your own school.  Purple belt just doesn’t.


Yeah, I'd put a BJJ brown belt (or possibly even purple) as equivalent to time and technical prowess for a shodan in the NGAA. Mind you, that's coming from a very limited exposure to BJJ folks, but that includes one person who is currently a brown belt (I think) in BJJ and yudansha in NGA. It's possible his prior experience in NGA (as long as my own - we actually joined within a couple of months of each other IIRC) makes him a bit more technically competent than the average person at his rank, and his prior experience teaching almost certainly makes him above average for an instructor of his rank.


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## wingchun100 (Apr 24, 2018)

My favorite martial arts fraud has got to be Dillman.


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## JR 137 (Apr 24, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> My favorite martial arts fraud has got to be Dillman.


Dillman’s great, but I’m more of an Ashida Kim guy, personally.  Different type of comedy IMO


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## wingchun100 (Apr 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Dillman’s great, but I’m more of an Ashida Kim guy, personally.  Different type of comedy IMO



Or what about the "Thank you, Paul" guy?


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## JR 137 (Apr 24, 2018)

wingchun100 said:


> Or what about the "Thank you, Paul" guy?


What’s that?

Never mind.  How can I forget him.  I genuinely think Master Ken is based heavily on Ashida Kim.


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## pgsmith (Apr 24, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Never mind. How can I forget him. I genuinely think Master Ken is based heavily on Ashida Kim.


  I agree, except that Ashida Kim is funnier because he's serious!


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## JR 137 (Apr 24, 2018)

pgsmith said:


> I agree, except that Ashida Kim is funnier because he's serious!


Exactly.  You can’t make up stuff that funny.


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## _Simon_ (Apr 25, 2018)

JR 137 said:


> Dillman’s great, but I’m more of an Ashida Kim guy, personally.  Different type of comedy IMO


... but what if I forget one of those steps.. will it still be a brutal killing and maiming combination??


(Oh wow.. this is actually my first exposure to this often spoken of Ashida Kim... that was truly something to behold... wow... did he really say rip the ear and the flesh off?? :O )


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## wingchun100 (Apr 25, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> ... but what if I forget one of those steps.. will it still be a brutal killing and maiming combination??
> 
> 
> (Oh wow.. this is actually my first exposure to this often spoken of Ashida Kim... that was truly something to behold... wow... did he really say rip the ear and the flesh off?? :O )



He is buddies with Frank Dux.


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## Kababayan (Apr 25, 2018)

Wow.  I haven't visited this thread for a couple of days and I am missing so many good responses.  On the subject of "con-artist" martial artists (if we still are...my computer is so slow that I haven't read the last few pages) I always found it misleading when a dojo would advertise something that they didn't teach and try to sell it to potential students.   Jiu Jitsu, for example, when all that is taught are wrist locks and such. Or "Yes we teach BJJ.  It's incorporated into our main (insert whatever traditional stand-up MA program.)"  I taught Kempo for years and just because it includes kicks, doesn't mean that I teach Tae Kwon Do. Paul Vunak (name drop) taught me the straightblast, so I think I am going to advertise that I teach Wing Chun now. There is a dojo nearby that has started advertising that they teach Krav Maga within their system.  I personally know the creator of their system and they don't teach anything that's Krav Maga.


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## Gerry Seymour (Apr 25, 2018)

Kababayan said:


> Wow.  I haven't visited this thread for a couple of days and I am missing so many good responses.  On the subject of "con-artist" martial artists (if we still are...my computer is so slow that I haven't read the last few pages) I always found it misleading when a dojo would advertise something that they didn't teach and try to sell it to potential students.   Jiu Jitsu, for example, when all that is taught are wrist locks and such. Or "Yes we teach BJJ.  It's incorporated into our main (insert whatever traditional stand-up MA program.)"  I taught Kempo for years and just because it includes kicks, doesn't mean that I teach Tae Kwon Do. Paul Vunak (name drop) taught me the straightblast, so I think I am going to advertise that I teach Wing Chun now. There is a dojo nearby that has started advertising that they teach Krav Maga within their system.  I personally know the creator of their system and they don't teach anything that's Krav Maga.


I know some folks list the styles that influenced their style, because those are better known. It wasn't unusual back in the day (before "Aikido" was a recognizable art name in some areas) for NGA schools to have "Judo, Karate, and Jujutsu" (and sometimes kobudo, though that's a stretch) listed under the name of the style on their school window. I guess I'm adding* "Boxing, BJJ, Kali, and miscellaneous crap I picked up" *to my marketing. Or is that too much?


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## TheArtofDave (May 2, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> I know some folks list the styles that influenced their style, because those are better known. It wasn't unusual back in the day (before "Aikido" was a recognizable art name in some areas) for NGA schools to have "Judo, Karate, and Jujutsu" (and sometimes kobudo, though that's a stretch) listed under the name of the style on their school window. I guess I'm adding* "Boxing, BJJ, Kali, and miscellaneous crap I picked up" *to my marketing. Or is that too much?




I heard about a mcsensi running a mcdojo. The times he claimed to learn the arts he taught didn't line up properly with when he learned them. He was teaching his students garbage. If you can't spot one of these from the instructors. Yeah  crap mcdojo just doesn't work for me.


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## Buka (May 2, 2018)

My personal favorite.


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## CB Jones (May 2, 2018)

The original McDojo


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## JR 137 (May 2, 2018)

Buka said:


> View attachment 21430
> My personal favorite.


Is that Jake “The Snake” Roberts?  If so, he’s the real deal!


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2018)

Buka said:


> View attachment 21430
> My personal favorite.


Now that is some dedication to stripes. Doesn't he know horizontal stripes add weight?


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## Gerry Seymour (May 2, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> The original McDojo


That, sir, is disturbing.


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## dvcochran (May 2, 2018)

I'll take a swing at the OP's post. I think he is talking about the arrogant, macho instructors many of us have worked out with. Their passion is not in teaching and passing down knowledge but about feeding their ego, and maybe their pockets. That said, I have seen some really physically gifted MA who just did not have the ability to teach but, thinking they did open their own dojo/Dojang. 
I feel bad for the arts as they are too quickly going to the wayside in lieu of the "I want it now" generation. I often say Martial Art should be Maturation Art as they go hand in hand.


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## _Simon_ (May 2, 2018)

CB Jones said:


> The original McDojo


Hahaha that Ronald has some mean kicks and uppercuts!!!

And those sound effects are GOLD XD


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## sumdumguy (May 5, 2018)

Tony Dismukes said:


> The first rule of Dunning-Kruger club is you don’t know you’re in Dunning-Kruger club.




And this is the answer!!! Read the article about this and you will understand the position of the people that don't know... Great Post! a friend of mine likes to say, you don't know what you don't know. Oh, and the reason there are so many of these charlatans is because they are allowed to operate and never really publicly outed. IMHO


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