# Alternating body building and martial arts



## Gitonga (Oct 18, 2021)

Quick question, i want to do bodybuilding but i also want to do martial arts, theres a martial arts gym that offers classes every day that alternate between boxing and grappling, normally i work out  monday to friday targeting different muscle groups each day so i was wondering should i do one week of gym and one week of martial arts or two weeks of gym and then two weeks of martial arts in terms of alternating because i know the martial arts sessions will be mainly cardio intensive, please answer thank you


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2021)

The body building approach "muscle group isolation" contradict with the MA approach "body unification".


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## drop bear (Oct 18, 2021)

I would have said a morning strength and conditioning and then martial arts in the evening.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 18, 2021)

G'day and welcome!

When I was pretty obsessively into bodybuilding and also trained martial arts, I would usually try to separate the days as best as I could. Eg if your martial arts stuff is on Mondays and Fridays something like:

M martial arts
T weights
W rest
T weights
F martial arts
S weights
S rest

Or if your weight training is more days alter accordingly. The most I did in a week was 4 days weights, then found 3 days was enough, nowadays I weight train 2 days a week, but priorities have shifted more to martial arts and mobility work.

I honestly would not alternate weeks of either MA or bodybuilding, it's not optimal at all for either. Incorporate them into the one week, or do away with the traidiotnal 7 day week, even think in terms of 10 day cycles.

Otherwise what drop bear suggested is also good, and I did it that way for a period of time, although it was very taxing for me personally, so make sure recovery is prioritised. Active rest/mobility days and some good recovery will be really important, don't forget that .

And EAT alot haha.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 18, 2021)

I strength train (powerlifting/strongman/olympic hybrid-periodized program) MWF, Taekwondo MTTH.  I need naps, but I feel they both compliment one another as far as fitness goes.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2021)

This is body building training - muscle group isolation.






This is MA training - body unification.





I have never seen any body builder does this kind of training. It doesn't build big muscle, but it enhance the core strength.


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## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2021)

I just had this conversation with my old S&C trainer. I used to train (including S&C, and MA's/sparring) 4-5 hour/day, 6 days/week. Plus I worked a 40 hour/week job (3rd shift). On top of this some of the circuit tournaments were a two day trips. Plus we were full time farming (as a family), I was teaching TKD, and was recently married. 
Not sure it was fully healthy but I truly loved it. Far and away the best shape of my life; and include when I was in college football and wrestling. 

Man, how I would love to be able to keep up with that pace now-a-days. 
My hours are cumulative hours now are not all that different but not nearly as physical.


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## dvcochran (Oct 18, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is body building training - muscle group isolation.
> 
> View attachment 27446
> 
> ...


And there is a major reason. That would be hell on the spine and disc's in the back.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> And there is a major reason. That would be hell on the spine and disc's in the back.


As long as you don't use too much weight. IMO, 60 lb should be the maximum.


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## Steve (Oct 18, 2021)

Bodybuilding with competition in mind or for functional strength?  Because competitive body builders have some wacky muscular imbalances that result from overdeveloping some muscle groups and underdeveloping others.  Competitive bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport, which means you're pursuing an ideal physique based on looks, not on performance.  And also why the world's strongest man competitions rarely include people with a wafer thin waist and chiseled, six pack abs.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 18, 2021)

Steve said:


> Bodybuilding with competition in mind or for functional strength?  Because competitive body builders have some wacky muscular imbalances that result from overdeveloping some muscle groups and underdeveloping others.  Competitive bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport, which means you're pursuing an ideal physique based on looks, not on performance.  And also why the world's strongest man competitions rarely include people with a wafer thin waist and chiseled, six pack abs.


Agree! The function strength development may not develop the best looking muscle.

When you push a car (such as a MA application), you want to use your whole body to push. You will not freeze your body and only push with your arms.

When I worked out in my 24 hours gym and used my whole body to pull the weight pulley, the gym instructors said I was wrong. I didn't want to argue with them. They didn't pay me to teach them the MA knowledge. I also didn't care about their body building method.

I find out that for a person who trains MA and a person who trains body building, it's like a chicken talks to a duck.


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## O'Malley (Oct 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Agree! The function strength development may not develop the best looking muscle.
> 
> When you push a car (such as a MA application), you want to use your whole body to push. You will not freeze your body and only push with your arms.
> 
> ...


I'm stealing this expression.


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## O'Malley (Oct 19, 2021)

Gitonga said:


> Quick question, i want to do bodybuilding but i also want to do martial arts, theres a martial arts gym that offers classes every day that alternate between boxing and grappling, normally i work out  monday to friday targeting different muscle groups each day so i was wondering should i do one week of gym and one week of martial arts or two weeks of gym and then two weeks of martial arts in terms of alternating because i know the martial arts sessions will be mainly cardio intensive, please answer thank you


If your goal is to look in shape, then showing up at boxing and grappling classes will be enough. You'll get the body of a grappler/boxer. 

If you want to become very big, you might want to supplement with weight training but that might mess with your body usage (typically you'll have a hard time keeping relaxed shoulders when punching/grappling). If you choose to go that way I recommend doing specific exercises to relax your shoulders every morning + after weight training sessions.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> This is body building training - muscle group isolation.
> 
> View attachment 27446
> 
> ...


Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses (bodybuilders sometimes ignore muscles that don't "show" well). If the OP is referring to strength training, there's no real conflict, at all. Even if isolation is used in some cases, it's usually to focus on a particular weakness.

Less-isolated strength exercises of any sort should benefit MA training.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses (bodybuilders sometimes ignore muscles that don't "show" well). If the OP is referring to strength training, there's no real conflict, at all. Even if isolation is used in some cases, it's usually to focus on a particular weakness.
> 
> Less-isolated strength exercises of any sort should benefit MA training.


Could be in conflict if you really want to excel in competitive bodybuilding, and actively don’t want to develop some muscle groups.  Active neglect vs passive neglect.  It’s like when guys skip leg day on purpose because they are pursuing the triangular look of a jacked upper body and scrawny legs.  Not saying it’s healthy.  But it is a thing.


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 19, 2021)

Welcome to the forum.  Like in most instances, it depends on what you are trying to accomplish doing both.   They don't necessarily have to be in conflict but if you are trying to excel at either (e.g.:  to become a champion) then the demands of both will require you to decide which path to take.   

As an older athlete in my 50's I do both on alternate days.   I do fitness classes on alternate days to my karate schedule and I find that the training of both help compliment each other.  The fitness classes consist of a fair bit of weight training but I am not interested in competing in weight or fitness competitions.  The classes are meant to improve my overall fitness level so that I can be a better martial artist.  

Figure out what you are trying to accomplish by doing both and I'm sure you will get a lot of good feedback from this site.  There are a lot of knowledgeable people with many years of training that can give you good advice.  

Good luck


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## Instructor (Oct 19, 2021)

I'll just say welcome.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Could be in conflict if you really want to excel in competitive bodybuilding, and actively don’t want to develop some muscle groups.  Active neglect vs passive neglect.  It’s like when guys skip leg day on purpose because they are pursuing the triangular look of a jacked upper body and scrawny legs.  Not saying it’s healthy.  But it is a thing.


Agreed. That's why I said they weren't _necessarily_ in conflict.


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## O'Malley (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses (bodybuilders sometimes ignore muscles that don't "show" well). If the OP is referring to strength training, there's no real conflict, at all. Even if isolation is used in some cases, it's usually to focus on a particular weakness.
> 
> Less-isolated strength exercises of any sort should benefit MA training.



Also depends on what type of MA you train. It's beneficial for most people (and is almost mandatory for styles like judo, wrestling, etc.) but, personally, my very minimal bodyweight training still messes up with my Daito ryu aikijujutsu.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> Also depends on what type of MA you train. It's beneficial for most people (and is almost mandatory for styles like judo, wrestling, etc.) but, personally, my very minimal bodyweight training still messes up with my Daito ryu aikijujutsu.


Interesting. I saw some issues with folks not learning to control properly (not the right connection to body movement, etc.) when they started with enough strength to easily muscle a technique. But I never saw a negative impact when someone added strength training. I do think the NGA development of aiki is probably not on par with what happens in Daito-ryu, so that may be part of the difference.

The one bodybuilder I trained with mostly had flexibility and ROM issues.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. That's why I said they weren't _necessarily_ in conflict.


Agreed.  That's why I said _could be _in conflict. 

Being serious for a moment, I felt like I needed to clarify because you said this:  "Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with_ actual bodybuilding_ (as opposed to strength training), the MA work _will _supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. "

It really sounded (sounds) like you think bodybuilders neglect some muscle groups on accident, but it is often intentional.  That's the point.  Where there is active neglect of some muscle groups, there is a conflict between the goals of one activity and the other.  For example, a competitive body builder often wants their waist to be as narrow as possible, but strengthening their core causes those muscle groups to grow.  So, they will intentionally neglect them, putting their bodybuilding at odds with any martial arts activity.

Or to paraphrase Bas Rutten, we're building fighter bodies, not beach bodies.


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## dvcochran (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Interesting. I saw some issues with folks not learning to control properly (not the right connection to body movement, etc.) when they started with enough strength to easily muscle a technique. But I never saw a negative impact when someone added strength training. I do think the NGA development of aiki is probably not on par with what happens in Daito-ryu, so that may be part of the difference.
> 
> The one bodybuilder I trained with mostly had flexibility and ROM issues.


I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.


Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible.  Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Agreed.  That's why I said _could be _in conflict.
> 
> Being serious for a moment, I felt like I needed to clarify because you said this:  "Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with_ actual bodybuilding_ (as opposed to strength training), the MA work _will _supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. "
> 
> ...


Not sure what about my brief statement led you to that conclusion, Steve. Yes, they de-emphasize some muscles so neighboring muscles stand out better.

Some of them (the less-informed) aren't aware of the risks behind that, where they're leaving some joints poorly supported. And sometimes it's not even a conscious choice to neglect (again, among the less-informed) - the muscles being neglected simply don't show well, so aren't worked much. Which is probably fine as long as you're doing highly isolated action. But when they try to use the strength they've built for something else, they are more likely to get injured. The more rounded exertion of heavy grappling, for instance, tends to build those support muscles they neglect.

Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 19, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> I have seen that. I have also seen gymnast, who looked as ripped as body builders who were incredibly flexible. It is all in how you exercise and practice I think. Of course, genetics play a big part.


Very much so. Gymnasts use their ROM on a regular basis, and exert the support muscles. And they don't have the over-emphasized muscles that keep arms from setting in some positions.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible.  Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2021)

O'Malley said:


> my very minimal bodyweight training still messes up with my Daito ryu aikijujutsu.


The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without MA training, each spring will be compressed and released separately. With MA training, all 3 springs will be compressed at the same time, and also be released at the same time.

This is the opposite of the "muscle group isolation". The more that you train muscle group isolation, the less that your body will be functioned as one single unit.


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## dvcochran (Oct 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 27453


Awesome woodwork though!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 19, 2021)

Steve said:


> Somebody had better tell JCVD that too many muscles makes you less flexible.  Maybe it was the cocaine that kept him flexible.


Not sure about this. The more leg muscle that I have developed, the harder it is for me to stretch like this.


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## _Simon_ (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Those aren't necessarily in conflict. Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses (bodybuilders sometimes ignore muscles that don't "show" well). If the OP is referring to strength training, there's no real conflict, at all. Even if isolation is used in some cases, it's usually to focus on a particular weakness.
> 
> Less-isolated strength exercises of any sort should benefit MA training.


Totally agree. There's also a strange myth that bodybuilding is all about just doing isolation exercises, very untrue!


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 19, 2021)

dvcochran said:


> Awesome woodwork though!











						Monument to Jean-Claude Van Damme (Azerbaijan)2021
					

Vandam village of Gabala district of Azerbaijan is now a new home for a statue of Jean-Claude Van Damme.




					ati.az


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## _Simon_ (Oct 19, 2021)

Oily Dragon said:


> View attachment 27453


It also turned him bronze!! 😮😮

Edit: OH didn't realise it was wood... ok well, it also turned him woody!! 😮😮


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## _Simon_ (Oct 19, 2021)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without MA training, each spring will be compressed and released separately. With MA training, all 3 springs will be compressed at the same time, and also be released at the same time.
> 
> This is the opposite of the "muscle group isolation". The more that you train muscle group isolation, the less that your body will be functioned as one single unit.


But there are actually many times in which a more isolated approach can help feel the connection better and move more efficiently. Eg doing specific lat training and focusing on the mind-muscle connection has helped me immensely in the elbow-hip connection, releasing too much "top-heavy" tension specifically on top of my shoulders (keeping my movement coming from "underneath" my arms instead of too high up in upper body), and a connection to my centre and helping to engage those muscles more intimately connected there.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 19, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> It also turned him bronze!! 😮😮
> 
> Edit: OH didn't realise it was wood... ok well, it also turned him woody!! 😮😮


I don't know what it's made of, but it's on the same level of awesome as this tshirt, artist unknown.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Even with actual bodybuilding (as opposed to strength training), the MA work will supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses


I've been regularly hitting the weights 3 days/wk for about 50 min/day for a few years (and on and mostly off for a few decades).  I'm not into bodybuilding (at my age, no amount of workout is going to make me a beach bunny magnet) nor am I really working for strength.  I do several exercises for each muscle group to get all the angles covered at 12-15 reps each.  (I used to go a little heavier at 8-10 reps).

That said, my karate is more powerful than ever.  Much of that is due to finally _mastering_ the technique and, as Kung Fu Wang terms it, "body unification."       (Mental attitude in execution also plays a part!) Only took me 50 years!  But I feel that a good chunk of that is my weight training.  I don't have the kinesthetic background of some others here, so can't explain why, but my gut tells me it's true.

Muscles are good, but _to put them to use_, you need an effective platform. That's where MA principles of movement and power come in. So, if we're talking about MA effectiveness, a goodly number of elements combine in the chemistry of it. It's a kind of alchemy: science + art resulting in more than the sum of its parts.


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## Steve (Oct 19, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Not sure what about my brief statement led you to that conclusion, Steve. Yes, they de-emphasize some muscles so neighboring muscles stand out better.
> 
> Some of them (the less-informed) aren't aware of the risks behind that, where they're leaving some joints poorly supported. And sometimes it's not even a conscious choice to neglect (again, among the less-informed) - the muscles being neglected simply don't show well, so aren't worked much. Which is probably fine as long as you're doing highly isolated action. But when they try to use the strength they've built for something else, they are more likely to get injured. The more rounded exertion of heavy grappling, for instance, tends to build those support muscles they neglect.
> 
> Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.


Less educated?  Well educated?  What are you basing that on?


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## dvcochran (Oct 20, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> I've been regularly hitting the weights 3 days/wk for about 50 min/day for a few years (and on and mostly off for a few decades).  I'm not into bodybuilding (at my age, no amount of workout is going to make me a beach bunny magnet) nor am I really working for strength.  I do several exercises for each muscle group to get all the angles covered at 12-15 reps each.  (I used to go a little heavier at 8-10 reps).
> 
> That said, my karate is more powerful than ever.  Much of that is due to finally _mastering_ the technique and, as Kung Fu Wang terms it, "body unification."       (Mental attitude in execution also plays a part!) Only took me 50 years!  But I feel that a good chunk of that is my weight training.  I don't have the kinesthetic background of some others here, so can't explain why, but my gut tells me it's true.
> 
> Muscles are good, but _to put them to use_, you need an effective platform. That's where MA principles of movement and power come in. So, if we're talking about MA effectiveness, a goodly number of elements combine in the chemistry of it. It's a kind of alchemy: science + art resulting in more than the sum of its parts.


That was the best "cookies on the bottom shelf" explanation of combining weight training with MA's I think I have ever heard.
A person could spend hours explaining the particulars but why do that when you already said it so elegantly.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

_Simon_ said:


> Totally agree. There's also a strange myth that bodybuilding is all about just doing isolation exercises, very untrue!


I'm no expert, by any stretch, but back in the day some of the bodybuilders who went to the gym I went to definitely favored isolation for arms, and to a lesser extent the upper trunk.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Less educated?  Well educated?  What are you basing that on?


I'm not even sure what you're asking, Steve. Folks with less information have some things they aren't aware of.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> I'm not even sure what you're asking, Steve. Folks with less information have some things they aren't aware of.


I'm trying to get you there.  I realize you're confused.  You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are.  Your logic seems pretty straightforward... why would they intentionally create muscular imbalances?  It's unhealthy... ergo, surely they just don't know any better.  Because (and this is the circle in your circular argument), if they knew better, surely they would address the imbalances.  

But, what if they have all the same information you have, and just disagree with you?  What if they know more than you do, meaning you are less educated than they, and they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)?  Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport.  Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal.  The goal of the sport is to be able to contract specific muscle groups in ways that promote an aesthetic based on an ideal that is specific to that sport.  So, if excelling in the sport is your goal, having a jacked, thick, functional core like a power lifter or MMA heavyweight is counterproductive.

Think about it like this.  Consider all of your statements about how folks train for different reasons, etc... and now apply that same perspective to this discussion.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm trying to get you there. I realize you're confused. You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are.


You're being condescending, and you're incorrect about what I've asserted. Neither is a good look.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> You're being condescending, and you're incorrect about what I've asserted. Neither is a good look.


Edit:  What you've done in the post above is essentially sidestepped the points entirely and made this all a personal judgment against me.  Not very nice, and I think it's against the rules. 

I allowed you to pull me into the same behavior, and so I deleted that part of the post.  

Earlier, you framed the discussion around less educated and well educated body builders.  I asked you what you meant and you chose to be coy.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> I'm trying to get you there.  I realize you're confused.  You're presuming that bodybuilders who under-develop some muscle groups are "less educated" than you are.  Your logic seems pretty straightforward... why would they intentionally create muscular imbalances?  It's unhealthy... ergo, surely they just don't know any better.  Because (and this is the circle in your circular argument), if they knew better, surely they would address the imbalances.
> 
> But, what if they have all the same information you have, and just disagree with you?  What if they know more than you do, meaning you are less educated than they, and they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)?  Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport.  Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal.  The goal of the sport is to be able to contract specific muscle groups in ways that promote an aesthetic based on an ideal that is specific to that sport.  So, if excelling in the sport is your goal, having a jacked, thick, functional core like a power lifter or MMA heavyweight is counterproductive.
> 
> Think about it like this.  Consider all of your statements about how folks train for different reasons, etc... and now apply that same perspective to this discussion.


I think you missed the last statement in the post you're referring to: "Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.".

He's not suggesting that all bodybuilders that do isolation don't know any better. He's saying that (informed) bodybuilders are making an active choice to focus on aesthetics rather than function. But that there are some that don't realize bodybuilding isn't necessarily functional. 

If I were to liken it to MA. It's basically your argument that it's fine to not train to learn how to fight, if that's not your goal. But having someone training thinking they're learning how to fight when they're not is problematic. In the same vein, if someone wants to look aesthetically good, then body building is great. But if they think that they're getting the best functional strength from it, then it's problematic.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I think you missed the last statement in the post you're referring to: "Well-educated bodybuilders are typically pretty aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it.".
> 
> He's not suggesting that all bodybuilders that do isolation don't know any better. He's saying that (informed) bodybuilders are making an active choice to focus on aesthetics rather than function. But that there are some that don't realize bodybuilding isn't necessarily functional.
> 
> If I were to liken it to MA. It's basically your argument that it's fine to not train to learn how to fight, if that's not your goal. But having someone training thinking they're learning how to fight when they're not is problematic. In the same vein, if someone wants to look aesthetically good, then body building is great. But if they think that they're getting the best functional strength from it, then it's problematic.


Okay.  The comment he made that led to the less/well educated part was in an earlier post: "Even with_ actual bodybuilding_ (as opposed to strength training), the MA work _will _supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. " (I added the italics)

I don't know how you read that, but it seems a little squirrelly to me.  It sounds like a pretty definitive statement that MA training *will *(his word, not mine) supplement bodybuilding nicely.  The simple point is that it may not.  Depending on what that activity in MA is, it is very possible that it would be counterproductive.  I think I said as much in my response.  

So, in that context, we get a post that frames this as an education bit, as though this is some bit of esoteric information and not common knowledge.  It's like saying, "Some less educated swimmers may not know that water is wet, and as a result, they could try and breathe it.  Well educated swimmers are typically aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it."


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Okay.  The comment he made that led to the less/well educated part was in an earlier post: "Even with_ actual bodybuilding_ (as opposed to strength training), the MA work _will _supplement it nicely, reducing some of the worst weaknesses. " (I added the italics)
> 
> I don't know how you read that, but it seems a little squirrelly to me.  It sounds like a pretty definitive statement that MA training *will *(his word, not mine) supplement bodybuilding nicely.  The simple point is that it may not.  Depending on what that activity in MA is, it is very possible that it would be counterproductive.  I think I said as much in my response.
> 
> So, in that context, we get a post that frames this as an education bit, as though this is some bit of esoteric information and not common knowledge.  It's like saying, "Some less educated swimmers may not know that water is wet, and as a result, they could try and breathe it.  Well educated swimmers are typically aware of all this, and either consciously accept the risk, or do something to mitigate it."


Regarding that first part, I agree. May would be the better word there personally, since I don't know enough about bodybuilding to make a judgment. And reducing some of the worst weaknesses is only weaknesses from an MA perspective to begin with. I also agree that it can be counterproductive-I can see how building the wrong muscle in MA can mess with the ratio that you're going for in bodybuilding. 

I do disagree that it's common knowledge that bodybuilders are building primarily for aesthetics. It should be, but I've known enough people who look at them and make comments indicating otherwise, so that information is important to let someone know getting into the sport, and if they don't know it they haven't been informed yet.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Edit:  What you've done in the post above is essentially sidestepped the points entirely and made this all a personal judgment against me.  Not very nice, and I think it's against the rules.
> 
> I allowed you to pull me into the same behavior, and so I deleted that part of the post.
> 
> Earlier, you framed the discussion around less educated and well educated body builders.  I asked you what you meant and you chose to be coy.


What I did in the post you quoted was point out that you were putting words in my mouth, and in a condescending manner. You quite literally ascribed to me a point that is in contrast to things I said in one of the earlier posts you quoted. So I sidestepped only a strawman.

I wasn't coy at all about what I meant by more and less educated. Those terms are relative to one another. Some folks have more information behind their practices, while others have less. This is a trusim across all endeavors I've ever witnessed or been party to.

If you had read my post to understand what I was saying, rather than what appears to have been a reading to look for something to disagree with (because you're disagreeing with something not in those posts), we wouldn't be here. You seem more and more often lately to read my posts with the assumption that I'm misinformed and/or I believe everyone else is.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Regarding that first part, I agree. May would be the better word there personally, since I don't know enough about bodybuilding to make a judgment. And reducing some of the worst weaknesses is only weaknesses from an MA perspective to begin with. I also agree that it can be counterproductive-I can see how building the wrong muscle in MA can mess with the ratio that you're going for in bodybuilding.


Cool.


Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I do disagree that it's common knowledge that bodybuilders are building primarily for aesthetics. It should be, but I've known enough people who look at them and make comments indicating otherwise, so that information is important to let someone know getting into the sport, and if they don't know it they haven't been informed yet.


Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point.  To a lay person, it may not be obvious.  So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community.   It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Cool.
> 
> Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point.  To a lay person, it may not be obvious.  So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community.   It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.


That wasn't an assumption. I had some good friends back in the day (lost touch long since) who were into bodybuilding, and they worked out at the same gym I did. They had been educated at least to some extent (probably by the guy who got them into it, but that _is_ an assumption). They warned about the advice I'd get from some of the other bodybuilders, including that some of them weren't aware of the difference between bodybuilding and strength training. And in working out around these guys and hearing them talk, I heard first-hand that some of them weren't aware of some of these issues.

I've had a chance since then to train MA with one serious bodybuilder, who reiterated some of those same points years later.

The assumption in this is that you assumed I had no real information, and was just projecting.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> What I did in the post you quoted was point out that you were putting words in my mouth, and in a condescending manner. You quite literally ascribed to me a point that is in contrast to things I said in one of the earlier posts you quoted. So I sidestepped only a strawman.
> 
> I wasn't coy at all about what I meant by more and less educated. Those terms are relative to one another. Some folks have more information behind their practices, while others have less. This is a trusim across all endeavors I've ever witnessed or been party to.
> 
> If you had read my post to understand what I was saying, rather than what appears to have been a reading to look for something to disagree with (because you're disagreeing with something not in those posts), we wouldn't be here. You seem more and more often lately to read my posts with the assumption that I'm misinformed and/or I believe everyone else is.


You're right.  It's all me.    When I literally quoted your own words, that was putting words in your mouth.  Come on, man.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> That wasn't an assumption. I had some good friends back in the day (lost touch long since) who were into bodybuilding, and they worked out at the same gym I did. They had been educated at least to some extent (probably by the guy who got them into it, but that _is_ an assumption). They warned about the advice I'd get from some of the other bodybuilders, including that some of them weren't aware of the difference between bodybuilding and strength training. And in working out around these guys and hearing them talk, I heard first-hand that some of them weren't aware of some of these issues.
> 
> I've had a chance since then to train MA with one serious bodybuilder, who reiterated some of those same points years later.
> 
> The assumption in this is that you assumed I had no real information, and was just projecting.


You were a competitive bodybuilder?  I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here.  I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding.


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> You're right.  It's all me.    When I literally quoted your own words, that was putting words in your mouth.  Come on, man.


Yeah. You quoted my post and ignored the part that had already metioned that informed bodybuilders exist.

It'd be like me doing this:



Steve said:


> You're right.


So, you're saying I'm right?


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## Gerry Seymour (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> You were a competitive bodybuilder?  I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here.  I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding.


I was never competitive. Show me where I made any kind of claim to that.

See, you are doing it again.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 20, 2021)

I workout with weights but I try to make the exercise as functional as possible when possible and if possible.   I incorporate weight lifting as part of my martial arts training. 

Flexibility has to be one of the major focuses of your training.  As the body gets more muscle it will naturally try to restrict movement according to how you lift weights.  Functional strength building allows you to maintain a lot of the flexibility that you'll need in martil arts.  Make stretching a primary activity and focus and you should do well with the two.


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## john_newman (Oct 20, 2021)

Join a gym that is near to your home..!! Ask your friends to join you also..!! That'll make you gain interest in The Gym.
Train like your Coach asks you to do. Also keep reading Blogs of Body Building and Martial Arts.!!


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah. You quoted my post and ignored the part that had already metioned that informed bodybuilders exist.
> 
> It'd be like me doing this:
> 
> ...


I don't have the energy for this.  Yes, you're right.  If it helps you sleep tonight, by all means. 


gpseymour said:


> I was never competitive. Show me where I made any kind of claim to that.
> 
> See, you are doing it again.


I asked the question because I didn't know one way or the other.  I can't show you where you've answered a question that hadn't yet been asked.

And why did I ask the question?  Because "I really do think we have in mind two different universes of people here. I'm talking about folks who train for and compete in the sport of bodybuilding."  (That last part is the rest of the post I don't think you read, before you started pointing the finger at me for not taking the time to understand you).

I went back to doublecheck my first post in this exchange, and I was pretty clear that I was talking about competitive bodybuilding.  So, if you have in mind people other than competitive bodybuilders, I think you're the one who's not reading for comprehension, jumping to conclusions, and being painfully condescending about it.   My mistake from the beginning is presuming you were responding to what I actually wrote.  My bad.  But now that I know that, it makes sense that we are talking about two different groups of people.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Just a reminder (to all involved) before one of the non-involved mods comes along and reads these-focus on the post/subject, not the other posters.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Sure and this is a great way to make exactly my point.  To a lay person, it may not be obvious.  So, the trap to avoid is presuming that since it isn't obvious to me (or you or someone else) as a lay person, it's not common knowledge within that community.   It's precisely when @gpseymour started projecting his lay perceptions onto people within the sport (i.e., I don't understand, so surely some folks within the community must not, too.) that he went off the rails.


At some point though, most people practicing a sport don't have the common knowledge of the community, and need to be given it. Normally when they're at the beginner level, which I'd guess is where the OP himself is, based on his post.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> At some point though, most people practicing a sport don't have the common knowledge of the community, and need to be given it. Normally when they're at the beginner level, which I'd guess is where the OP himself is, based on his post.


As I said to @gpseymour, I made a comment about competitive bodybuilders.  Things like what we're talking about are as foundational in that sport as the guard is in BJJ.  You say "pull guard" to a lay person, and he or she may not know what you mean.  But within BJJ, it intrinsic.   You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed.   Suggesting that there are competitive jiu jitiero out there who don't know what "pull guard" means seems really weird.  Right?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> As I said to @gpseymour, I made a comment about competitive bodybuilders.  Things like what we're talking about are as foundational in that sport as the guard is in BJJ.  You say "pull guard" to a lay person, and he or she may not know what you mean.  But within BJJ, it intrinsic.   You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed.   Suggesting that there are competitive jiu jitiero out there who don't know what "pull guard" means seems really weird.  Right?


That's fair. I'd agree with you in all that. I don't know enough about competitive bodybuilding to state if it's that intrinsic so I'll take your word for it. Even with that though, the initial OP stated that OP _wants to do bodybuilding but also wants to do martial arts_. To me that suggests he/she's not got that foundational knowledge yet. It would be like someone saying they want to do jujitsu, but also want to do (something I can't think of that involves shins), and warning them about shin/footburns. Anyone within the sport already knows that those are things and how to deal with it if needed, but it's a surprise and useful info for those still looking into it.

Again, not addressing the rest about whether or not average competitive bodybuilders do/don't know that, or any assumptions that have been made that they do/don't. So not addressing this line: "You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed."

Since I've got no clue how accurate the comparison is for bodybuilding. Just stating how it relates to the OP as important information for him to know. Beyond that and further arguments I can't really say much.


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## isshinryuronin (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> they have made choices based on different priorities (which is to perform at a high level in their sport)? Professional bodybuilding is an aesthetic sport. Lifting heavy weights just isn't the goal.


Well said and equally applies to MA.  I personally don't agree 100% as I think if the self-defense aspect of MA is _abandoned_ in favor of its other benefits, MA as a traditional art is degraded.  That's just my opinion.  But while bodybuilding is not designed for pure strength building, a bodybuilder is still stronger than one who does not weight train at all.  

So it is with MA.  While one may not get into it and train for its fighting skills, but for the various other benefits, they will still be better off than most untrained people in a self-defense situation.  Even soccer mom boxing gym classes will give _some_ SD benefit to them.

(My main goal in weight training for the past few years was simply to stay physically functional into my 70's and hopefully 80's.  But as I said earlier, my karate also greatly benefited.)

I think the key is to understand exactly the limitations and benefits of how you undertake the activity, so the _choice_ is really a choice, and not the result of marketing or ignorance. That way you go into it with your eyes open with no misconception of what you are accomplishing. The individual's choice may differ from ours, but we all have unique goals that for us are a priority.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's fair. I'd agree with you in all that. I don't know enough about competitive bodybuilding to state if it's that intrinsic so I'll take your word for it. Even with that though, the initial OP stated that OP _wants to do bodybuilding but also wants to do martial arts_. To me that suggests he/she's not got that foundational knowledge yet. It would be like someone saying they want to do jujitsu, but also want to do (something I can't think of that involves shins), and warning them about shin/footburns. Anyone within the sport already knows that those are things and how to deal with it if needed, but it's a surprise and useful info for those still looking into it.


Which is the only reason I brought it up.    If I thought the OP knew it, I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it.  If you go back and look at my initial post in this exchange, it's basically a comment to the effect of, "Hey, you may not know this, but competitive body building and martial arts may not be compatible... and here's why."  



Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Again, not addressing the rest about whether or not average competitive bodybuilders do/don't know that, or any assumptions that have been made that they do/don't. So not addressing this line: "You wouldn't expect someone to say, well, there are some well informed jiu jitiero out there, and some who are less informed."
> 
> Since I've got no clue how accurate the comparison is for bodybuilding. Just stating how it relates to the OP as important information for him to know. Beyond that and further arguments I can't really say much.


Okay.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Oct 20, 2021)

Steve said:


> Which is the only reason I brought it up.    If I thought the OP knew it, I wouldn't have bothered mentioning it.  If you go back and look at my initial post in this exchange, it's basically a comment to the effect of, "Hey, you may not know this, but competitive body building and martial arts may not be compatible... and here's why."


Honestly I can't remember where this exchange started/how it developed to where it did.  Might go back tonight and reread it from the beginning to see, if I don't get distracted by something more pressing.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Well said and equally applies to MA.  I personally don't agree 100% as I think if the self-defense aspect of MA is _abandoned_ in favor of its other benefits, MA as a traditional art is degraded.  That's just my opinion.  But while bodybuilding is not designed for pure strength building, a bodybuilder is still stronger than one who does not weight train at all.


For sure.  Interestingly, one of the ironies of the sport is that when they look the strongest (i.e., when they are actually competing), they are probably extremely dehydrated, running on an extremely low body/fat %, and are at their lowest point for functional performance.  But damn, they look strong.



isshinryuronin said:


> So it is with MA.  While one may not get into it and train for its fighting skills, but for the various other benefits, they will still be better off than most untrained people in a self-defense situation.  Even soccer mom boxing gym classes will give _some_ SD benefit to them.
> 
> (My main goal in weight training for the past few years was simply to stay physically functional into my 70's and hopefully 80's.  But as I said earlier, my karate also greatly benefited.)
> 
> I think the key is to understand exactly the limitations and benefits of how you undertake the activity, so the _choice_ is really a choice, and not the result of marketing or ignorance. That way you go into it with your eyes open with no misconception of what you are accomplishing. The individual's choice may differ from ours, but we all have unique goals that for us are a priority.


Agreed.  Making decisions based on sound information.  I mentioned French fries in another thread.  Not only were they tastier in the 70s and 80s, they were also better for you.


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## Steve (Oct 20, 2021)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> Honestly I can't remember where this exchange started/how it developed to where it did.  Might go back tonight and reread it from the beginning to see, if I don't get distracted by something more pressing.


I'll save you the trouble.  I made a comment about how there could be a conflict if someone really wants to excel in competitive bodybuilding.  


Steve said:


> Could be in conflict if you really want to excel in competitive bodybuilding, and actively don’t want to develop some muscle groups.  Active neglect vs passive neglect.  It’s like when guys skip leg day on purpose because they are pursuing the triangular look of a jacked upper body and scrawny legs.  Not saying it’s healthy.  But it is a thing.



Just because I'm irritated, I'll say that what perturbs me is that I haven't really disagreed with Gerry at any point, but try telling him that and you'll get a virtual finger wag.


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## Oily Dragon (Oct 20, 2021)

6 essential yoga poses for lifters
					

Finish your workout with this 10-15 minute sequence to improve your mobility and alleviate sore muscles.




					www.mensjournal.com


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## Yokozuna514 (Oct 21, 2021)

isshinryuronin said:


> Even soccer mom boxing gym classes will give _some_ SD benefit to them.


I suppose the operative word here is 'some'.   How that translates into any useful SD benefits would be interesting to see.   Not sure how much context is being given in these types of classes and how much useful repetition there is to make any of the movements useful in an SD situation but I suppose it soccer mom's will at least be in better shape than if they were not doing that activity at all.   I would only hope that the gym or class wouldn't claim that the movements would adequately prepare anyone for anything other than a scuffle at a Macy's bargain basement sale but I suppose there are a spectrum of these types of classes and some are better than others in the program they provide.


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## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

Gitonga said:


> Quick question, i want to do bodybuilding but i also want to do martial arts, theres a martial arts gym that offers classes every day that alternate between boxing and grappling, normally i work out  *monday to friday targeting different muscle groups* each day so i was wondering should i do one week of gym and one week of martial arts or two weeks of gym and then two weeks of martial arts in terms of alternating because i know the martial arts sessions will be mainly cardio intensive, please answer thank you


yeah a typical bro split...  if the volume is high enough it will work. I suggest a shorter HIIT type weight training programme maybe like Mike Mentzer. Hard short infrequent training.
some good info on his training on youtube. can do a split or full body.


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 21, 2021)

So, yesterday was squat/leg day, and it coincided with a special 2 hour black belt class.  I decided not to skip my strength training, 4x4 back squats at 225#, 5x4 log presses at 115#, 4x4 belt squats, and 4x4 overhead squats at 155#.  I am hating the world today, but sometimes the soreness makes you feel alive!  

The black belt class was awesome btw.


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## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

can tweek it for your own goals. nothing is carved in stone.


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## caped crusader (Oct 21, 2021)

SahBumNimRush said:


> overhead squats


don´t see these often in the Gym(maybe crossfit). excellent though for overall strength and posture.


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

Steve said:


> Could be in conflict if you really want to excel in competitive bodybuilding, and actively don’t want to develop some muscle groups.  Active neglect vs passive neglect.  It’s like when guys skip leg day on purpose because they are pursuing the triangular look of a jacked upper body and scrawny legs.  Not saying it’s healthy.  But it is a thing.


it depends on how you train but Competition bodybuilding is about developing every facet of a muscle group not just strength which is another animal. This is why they talk about training every angle with mostly volume (sets) & exercises. I think a good way is the antagonistic split. Training opposite muscle groups superset style(no rest between sets) 
For example: Biceps curls with Lying Triceps extensions. 
This form of training is taxing & gets also your heart rate up, also no muscle imbalance. Remember when you kick a lot of muscles work together. opposite muscles either shorten or lengthen and all need to be trained. Muscle imbalance for example of the Hamstrings causes in many people lower back pains. so you need to train Hammies and Quads. 
For a martial artist it need not be complicated... pick the best exercises for your body. some people just aint suited to certain exercises. 
Nothing is carved in stone!


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## caped crusader (Oct 22, 2021)

saves time too. recovery is very important if you´re training martial art even twice a week & weights. Train hard, get out the Gym no marathon "Arnold" style workouts.








						Antagonistic Supersets for More Muscles in Less Time
					






					blog.ultimateperformance.com


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## SahBumNimRush (Oct 22, 2021)

Today is pressing day.  Bench 4x4 at 185#, viking press 4x4 at 115#, push press 4x4 at 145#, and mace swings 4x4 at 25# bilaterally.  Then I get the weekend off to recover!


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## caped crusader (Oct 23, 2021)




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## KungfukennyG (Oct 26, 2021)

Gitonga said:


> Quick question, i want to do bodybuilding but i also want to do martial arts, theres a martial arts gym that offers classes every day that alternate between boxing and grappling, normally i work out  monday to friday targeting different muscle groups each day so i was wondering should i do one week of gym and one week of martial arts or two weeks of gym and then two weeks of martial arts in terms of alternating because i know the martial arts sessions will be mainly cardio intensive, please answer thank you


I've been a martial artist 48 years and strongly believe in cross-training, including weight training. But body-building five days a week seems excessive. How about alternating days instead of weeks? Give your body a break. Too much yang leads to yin, young man.


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## AIKIKENJITSU (Oct 26, 2021)

Gitonga said:


> Quick question, i want to do bodybuilding but i also want to do martial arts, theres a martial arts gym that offers classes every day that alternate between boxing and grappling, normally i work out  monday to friday targeting different muscle groups each day so i was wondering should i do one week of gym and one week of martial arts or two weeks of gym and then two weeks of martial arts in terms of alternating because i know the martial arts sessions will be mainly cardio intensive, please answer thank you


I am 10th degree in "my" version of American Kenpo (I have books on Amazon). I am 5'2" and small boned. I have always worked weights with Kenpo. I also have a black belt in Tracy Kenpo.
    Even with eternal power, you can't have too much strength! At age 78 I am still strong and because of Kenpo, very fast and limber. 
Over the years I have used different schedules of training. Now Every other day I do weights and then every other day I do Kenpo.
At my age I do dumbbells and high reps. I also have a Total Gym, for those days I feel pooped. In other words, I have to have my workout.
I also found that I have near diabetus. I therefore doing a workout (20 min) every day keeps my blood sugar low. Hope this hellps. Remember, whatever schedule you feel good with, is the one for you.
Sifu
Puyalllup, Wa


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## caped crusader (Oct 26, 2021)

My beast Was just out..


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## caped crusader (Oct 26, 2021)

As far as weights go will do 3 days.
Chest & arms
Off
Legs
Off
Back & shoulder
Off
Off
Cardio when I have Off days or as often as possible... 3 days weights is enough at the moment.


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