# Buying a gun for the first time?



## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm considering buying a gun in the future.  Right now, I'm thinking for recreational target shooting, not hunting and not for personal defense. 

I shot a 22 rifle in scouts waaaaay back when, so that's about the extent of my experience.

I'm thinking go the same route this time, small round, low cost, low maint, low recoil, for blowing the snot outta evil paper targets. 

Any suggestions, recommendations, cautions, etc?

Thanks


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## grydth (Dec 20, 2008)

A similar thread came up fairly recently..... a lot of use recommended the Ruger 10/22 and I'd stay with that given the activities you are planning. One of the most versatile and 'customizable' firearms ever created; It is simple, reliable and user friendly.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2008)

Ruger 10/22

Remington 700

Savage 22


You really cannot go wrong with any of those.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 20, 2008)

However Bob for versatility ie. meaning not just target practice but home defense as well I would go for a 12 gauge shot gun or a 9 mm handgun.  Either would provide hours of fun on the range and yet have the versatility of being an excellent choice for home defense.


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## dart68 (Dec 20, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Ruger 10/22
> 
> Remington 870
> 
> ...


 
I would have to agree.  Semi-auto is SO much more fun.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 20, 2008)

Ruger 10/22 is a good choice, but honestly I'd go with a 9mm.  It's versatile and fairly lightweight so you can use it for target practice.  Additionally as someone pointed out, you have to option of using it for home defence.  Go with Glock and you'll have minimal care to worry about.

David


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

I'm liking the look of the Ruger 10/22 over the Savage 22.  Not really looking for a shotgun right now.

What are the low cost options on the 9mm side, if any?  Mind you, I'm looking at rifles, not pistols at the moment.  Pistols are on the "once I've moved to Texas" list.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 20, 2008)

Sorry Bob, didn't realize you didn't want a handgun at the moment, but I doubt that you want a shotgun for target practice.

David


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

I don't.  Something about them, doesn't feel "me" if that makes sense?

As far as handguns go, I've always been partial to the luger, but there's a part of me that wouldn't mind something "old west" like.  Then again, I honestly know nada here.


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## Journeyman (Dec 20, 2008)

If you like the "old west" vibe,  you might prefer a .22 lever action like the Marlin 39a or one of the lever action Henry rifles over the Ruger 10/22.  The Marlin is a classic with only minor changes since the days Annie Oakley used one.


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## Big Don (Dec 20, 2008)

The sound of a pump action shotgun's action cycling is a singular sound that cannot be mistaken for anything else. That sound alone will make people stop in their tracks...
Cost... Well, that is one of those areas you want to be careful, by and large, you get what you pay for.
Recoil,
While a 12ga has a pretty solid recoil, you have to balance between recoil and usefulness. Maybe a 410 would be good for you, less recoil and still, the benefits of being a shotgun.
As far as target practice is concerned you can't beat a Rifle or handgun chambered in .22LR the ammunition is cheap and plentiful.


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob,

For a .22 rifle the Ruger 10/22 simi-auto. For the pistol, the Ruger MkII or MKIII. I'd get the stainless versions as I'm a lazy bum at cleaning. So lazy I have a Glock 26 9mm for practice and IDPA (and I rarely clean it) and a Glock 27 .40 for carry.

Now if you want to go into formal match .22 rifle and pistol shooting, I can point you to some real good match rifles and pistols, but those two above are very good shooters.

Now for low cost 9mm, on the Sig P6, the police version of the Sig 225, is awful good for the price. Usually around $300 to $350..

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/778/products_id/411534870

This is just one source. Google and you will find others. Just get a FFL dealer near you to order it.

I can tell you, since I own one, they are very good 9mm pistols. Single stack mags that hold 8 shots. Shoots like a rifle. Of course, being Sigs, they have outstanding workmanship. They have holster wear but NO wear on the inside! Very good guns.

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (Dec 20, 2008)

For a .22 rifle, either the Ruger 10/22 or the aforementioned Henry lever action.



> What are the low cost options on the 9mm side, if any? Mind you, I'm looking at rifles, not pistols at the moment.


 
There aren't many 9mm carbines that I'd really recommend...Ruger made one for a while (the PC-9), Kel-Tec makes one that seems to be okay, and Hi-point makes one that apparently isn't too bad for a "plinker." I personally wouldn't bother with any of these as I don't think you're really accomplishing anything. Basically all they are is a big pistol so you're not gaining any substantial power over a pistol in the same caliber, and you're spending more to shoot it than you would with a .22 

(yes everyone, I know it's easier to shoot a carbine accurately and there are situations where some argue that a pistol caliber carbine is a better choice than a real rifle, but he wasn't asking about defensive use).


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

Well, what are the options that would work well for both recreational and defensive? I know nothing. 

Weight and recoil are to big concerns, so an AK47 would be a bad idea for me. LOL!


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## hongkongfooey (Dec 20, 2008)

An AK-47's felt recoil is actually pretty tame. 7.62 x 39 isn't a bruiser round.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

ok, maybe I meant a 38? 35? 357? 747? LOL!


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## sjansen (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Well, what are the options that would work well for both recreational and defensive? I know nothing.
> 
> Weight and recoil are to big concerns, so an AK47 would be a bad idea for me. LOL!


 
Ruger 10/22 for a rifle. You will not find anything cheaper or more accurate for the money. Even for more money the ruger 10/22 will drive dimes. If you want a pistol like a lugar the rugar MarkII is your best option. However, I feel that the best .22 on the market in the pistol range is the browning buck mark. Both the ruger and the browning are very acurrate. Both are hard to clean. The buck mark is a little easier. By the way the remington bulk ammo. (box of 550) desroys the federal in feeding, misfires and consistensy.


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## MA-Caver (Dec 20, 2008)

:jaw-dropping: An anti-gun *buying* a gun? 


Next thing you know Israelis are going to be living peacefully side by side with Palestinians.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 20, 2008)

Why is recoil a big concern? Or is it just that you don't want something with "excessive" recoil?

For a rifle intended for defensive use in urban environments, the AR-15 is a good choice as you have a high capacity (or you can once you move to a free state ) and a round that will do the job pretty effectively without posing as much risk of overpenetration as you have with the .30 caliber rifles (and with pistols for that matter). For a more rural setting, an AK or other, bigger rifles might be a better choice due to their greater power and few people around to worry about.

For a pistol, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 are all about the same in terms of effectiveness...I recommend the 9mm because of cheaper ammo, higher capacity, and less muzzle flip than the larger ones.

And of course, a 12 gauge shotgun with buckshot is definitely an effective fight stopper.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

I'd prefer to avoid recoil.  Now, having never shopped for a gun before, I have no idea what to expect in a gun shop. Do you need a permit to browse? I know each state is different here, right now I'm in NY, and not likely to move for about a year, with the Austin-San Antonio area of Texas where I expect to end up. 

Do gun shops allow you to test fire before you buy?


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 20, 2008)

MA-Caver said:


> :jaw-dropping: An anti-gun *buying* a gun?
> 
> 
> Next thing you know Israelis are going to be living peacefully side by side with Palestinians.


Yeah, funny that eh? 

Researching the Constitution, and history, as well as some of the discussions I've had, have changed my opinions a bit, and opened my eyes to some possibilities I've been admittedly blind to. 

But I'm starting from zero here on a lot of this.


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## sjansen (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd prefer to avoid recoil. Now, having never shopped for a gun before, I have no idea what to expect in a gun shop. Do you need a permit to browse? I know each state is different here, right now I'm in NY, and not likely to move for about a year, with the Austin-San Antonio area of Texas where I expect to end up.
> 
> Do gun shops allow you to test fire before you buy?


 
In the communist republic of Younork you will not find much concience. They are much like England in that they like to blame the defender for trying to protect themselves. In Texas you should be able to find many gun shops that are happy to let you shoot before buying.

For Cro, you are only seconds away from being killed/raped/assaulted, when the police are minutes away. Although I know he was being sarcastic.


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## KenpoTex (Dec 20, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I'd prefer to avoid recoil.


Just so you're clear, every weapon has recoil to some extent, including the little .22...we are setting off an explosion after all. However, the "felt-recoil" will vary from one gun to the next, and people's sensitivity to recoil is different. This makes judgements on the severity of recoil somewhat subjective. That said, common "service caliber" handguns (9, .40, .45, etc.) should not cause any _discomfort_. Neither will rifles like the AR-15 (most often chambered in .223) or the AK (most commonly chambered in 7.62x39 or 5.45x39). 



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Now, having never shopped for a gun before, I have no idea what to expect in a gun shop. Do you need a permit to browse? I know each state is different here, right now I'm in NY, and not likely to move for about a year, with the Austin-San Antonio area of Texas where I expect to end up.


 No, you don't need a permit to browse...



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> Do gun shops allow you to test fire before you buy?


Some gun shops that also have a firing range on site will have some guns available for rent so that you can try different brands, models, and calibers. However, I doubt they'll let you test fire a brand new gun. I do know there is at least one in San Antonio that rents different guns.


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## Big Don (Dec 21, 2008)

If you hold the weapon correctly, you will feel less recoil. Held too loosely, bad things happen...
The Army preaches proper cheek to stock weld.
If this girl had had that, and had had the stock tucked tightly to her shoulder, she wouldn't have been bucked so much or been hit in the eye.
Some time with a good instructor will make you worry about recoil a lot less, and how to afford the really good guns more...


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## MA-Caver (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yeah, funny that eh?
> 
> Researching the Constitution, and history, as well as some of the discussions I've had, have changed my opinions a bit, and opened my eyes to some possibilities I've been admittedly blind to.
> 
> But I'm starting from zero here on a lot of this.


Either way Bob, it's good to see that you're flexible and willing to change. Hope you don't regret your decision. Hope no butt head makes you regret it. :asian: 
Learn from the best and mind what they say. Hope you enjoy your new *ahem* hobby.


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## HM2PAC (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard wrote:


> Yeah, funny that eh?
> 
> Researching the Constitution, and history, as well as some of the discussions I've had, have changed my opinions a bit, and opened my eyes to some possibilities I've been admittedly blind to.
> 
> But I'm starting from zero here on a lot of this.



I'm new to this website, but I have to say that your ability to look at an issue with open eyes/mind is impressive.

as far as the guns go....

The .22LR rifles such as the Ruger 10/22 and the Marlin 60 can't be beat. If you like to tinker go with the 10/22, aftermarket parts that make the little rifle even more enjoyable are everywhere. Most parts drop-in without the need for a gunsmith.

If you are thinking of 9mm, another very well built handgun is the CZ-75. If I was going to buy a new 9mm, I'd look at the HK P30. HK is pricey, but the quality is undeniable. Glock is also good, nice full capacity mags. Ruger 9's are built like tanks, but people seem to like them.

Good Luck


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## Guardian (Dec 21, 2008)

Well since you are just asking for paper target practice, the 10/22 would be perfect for you.

If you decide later about home defense (Yes I live in Texas) LOL, I will give my recommendation on other defensive handguns or bigger if you so choose.


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## Guardian (Dec 21, 2008)

Guardian said:


> Well since you are just asking for paper target practice, the 10/22 would be perfect for you.
> 
> If you decide later about home defense (Yes I live in Texas) LOL, I will give my recommendation on other defensive handguns or bigger if you so choose.


 

Check out this site just to get an idea if you want.

http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAFamily?type=Rifle&subtype=Autoloading&famlst=39


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob, 
Go with some sort of .22; there are lots on the market, and others have covered that better than I can.  But the .22 is cheap to shoot, too -- which means you'll probably actually do it!  I've got a buddy with a beautiful sniper rifle... but it costs him about $3 to $5 a round...  Nope, he doesn't shoot it often!

I wanna pull one comment from Big Don:


> Some time with a good instructor will make you worry about recoil a lot less, and how to afford the really good guns more...


I can't support this strongly enough.  The NRA has very good programs available.  Spend the time with an instructor to learn how to shoot, to learn how to care for the gun, and just plain to learn gun safety.  I'm absolutely certain you've got well meaning buddies offering to take you out and "show you how to shoot."  Unless they're qualified firearms instructors... go out with them AFTER you go through a formal class.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Dec 21, 2008)

Yes definitely get some instruction.  That is very, very important!


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob,

In Texas you don't need no stink'en permit to browse, buy, or even keep your hogleg in the car.

And as for test firing, I sure wish gun shops allowed that. Just walk right out into the street, pick a knot on a near by tree, and let go a few rounds. Would be fun but in reality a whole bunch of LEOs would decend upon you like feas on a camel.

But, if you go to a indoor range where they sell guns, yes many will let you 'try before you buy'.

Deaf


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## HM2PAC (Dec 21, 2008)

This past Friday I got to test-fire a Detonics Mk VI CM45 before I purchased it. My gunsmith lives outside of city limits and has a backstop setup. 

BTW, the Detonics was flawless!!!

:uzi:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 21, 2008)

I'll be asking lots of questions later on about instruction.

I figure, "guns for dummys" and Shatner's paintball dvd's probably aren't quite enough. 

Seriously though, I appreciate all the advice.


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## HM2PAC (Dec 21, 2008)

I agree with all the admonishment to get good instruction. Train, train, and then train some more.

There are good programs set-up by the NRA that are good basic courses. After you have the basics covered, you may want to check out some of the defensive shooting schools out there. 

Check out this place. Warrior Talk Forums - Powered by vBulletin

Gabe Suarez is a no nonsense kinda guy, a firm believer in what works.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2008)

You might want to consider checking with the NRA even before you buy.  They may have classes that provide guns, and that might give you a chance to try before you buy...  Or at least feel a little more knowledgeable about buying.


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## Archangel M (Dec 21, 2008)

For "fun shooting", with no interest in using it for hunting or defense, go with a .22. Far and away one of the best "fun guns" with minimal cost going. Good for learning the basics.

Look out you may get hooked and join the "gun nut" club.

Ill sponsor you when it happens.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob:

Before you do anything further:

Fix these rules in your memory *FOREVER:*


*RULE 1
ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED*

The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again.​*RULE 2
NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT PREPARED TO DESTROY*

You may not wish to destroy it, but you must be clear in your mind that you are quite ready to if you let that muzzle cover the target. To allow a firearm to point at another human being is a deadly threat, and should always be treated as such.​*RULE 3
KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER TIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET AND THE DECISION TO FIRE HAS BEEN MADE*

This we call the *Golden Rule* because its violation is responsible for about 80 percent of the firearms disasters we read about.​*RULE 4
BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET AND WHAT IS BEYOND IT BEFORE YOU SHOOT*

You never shoot at anything until you have positively identified it. You never fire at a shadow, or a sound, or a suspected presence. You shoot only when you know absolutely what you are shooting at and what is beyond it. ​


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## HM2PAC (Dec 21, 2008)

I've always found rule #1 a bit tedious. There is no such thing as magic. If I put an unloaded and checked gun down, it does not magically become loaded.

Should all weapons be treated as though they are loaded, yes of course. Should anyone be told to obsessively check weapons known to be unloaded for a live round? No that is preposterous.

Being responsible around firearms also requires being smart around firearms.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 21, 2008)

I'd assume #1 is more a "has it been out of your sight/control" thing than a "I put it down to scratch my butt, now I have to check again" thing.


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## Andy Moynihan (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'd assume #1 is more a "has it been out of your sight/control" thing than a "I put it down to scratch my butt, now I have to check again" thing.


 
Yes. Or most often when one person puts it down, and another person wishes to pick it up, correct discipline demands the new holder check it *anyway*.

But it's good practice to develop the habit of being safe anyway.


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## Guardian (Dec 21, 2008)

Deaf Smith said:


> Bob,
> 
> In Texas you don't need no stink'en permit to browse, buy, or even keep your hogleg in the car.
> 
> ...


 
Correct, there are some stipulations to the car portion though unless you have a CCP.


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## jks9199 (Dec 21, 2008)

The first rule, as I learned is "Treat all firearms as if they are loaded at all times."

Following this rule alone would prevent many firearm mistakes.  Had that genius DEA agent obeyed that rule -- he'd never have shot himself.  

The moment it takes to automatically confirm a firearm's status -- loaded or unloaded, slide or chamber open or not -- is well worth the safety you create.  Yes, if you're working in a closed environment with total control over the weapon, you don't have to be as paranoid... but if you continue to treat the gun as loaded, you should automatically pull the rest of the rules into your actions, too.


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## Big Don (Dec 21, 2008)

The first thing you do when taking control of a weapon, is open the action and visually verify if it is loaded or not.


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## David Weatherly (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I'll be asking lots of questions later on about instruction.
> 
> I figure, "guns for dummys" and Shatner's paintball dvd's probably aren't quite enough.
> 
> Seriously though, I appreciate all the advice.


 

haha Where can I get the Shatner paintball dvd?

David


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 21, 2008)

David Weatherly said:


> haha Where can I get the Shatner paintball dvd?
> 
> David


$3 from the man himself.
http://shatner-store.stores.yahoo.net/wilshatsppla.html


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## Deaf Smith (Dec 21, 2008)

Guardian said:


> Correct, there are some stipulations to the car portion though unless you have a CCP.


 
Sort of true. You have to conceal the hogleg in the car, but then if you have a CHL, you would still have to conceal it.

Bob,

Thought I might mention here in Texas you an also keep an 'illegal knife' and a 'illegal club' in your car (as long as it's concealed.) Cool thing is the 'illegal knife' is any knife with a blade of 5.5 inches or more, or a double edged blade, dirk, dagger, sword ... yea a Hattori Hanzo! I've always wanted one like Betrix had. You can even pack a spear, like in 'The 300', if you can figure out a way to conceal it.

Just make sure you are not a known member of a gang (not including the Boy Scouts.) If you are a member of a known gang, then no hogleg for you (but you still can pack a Hanzo blade!)

Sometimes our legislature guys don't read their laws so well before they vote! Strange considering most of 'em are lawyers.

Welcome to Texas when you come! We have had many a tall Texan down here like Audie Murphy, Gen. Chennault (Flying Tigers), Adm. Nimitz. And infamous ones like John Wesly Hardin and BIll Longley (and Bonnie & Clide to!)

Why even Carl Rove is a Texan (we have some pretty crafty Texans, I tell you!)

And of course.... Deaf Smith was a mighty Texan!

Deaf


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 21, 2008)

KenpoTex said:


> For a pistol, 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 are all about the same in terms of effectiveness...I recommend the 9mm because of cheaper ammo, higher capacity, and less muzzle flip than the larger ones.


 
What KT says about the 9 mm is true. The ammo is cheaper, and for a beginner being able to place the barrel back on target for the second shot is an import point to consider. After you have hours of shooting and feel more confortable you can get in to the debates of the effectiveness if which one will do the best job with you. (* i.e. excuses to go to teh gun range and shoot different caliber guns, and then even buy some.   *)


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## Rich Parsons (Dec 21, 2008)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yeah, funny that eh?
> 
> Researching the Constitution, and history, as well as some of the discussions I've had, have changed my opinions a bit, and opened my eyes to some possibilities I've been admittedly blind to.
> 
> But I'm starting from zero here on a lot of this.


 

Bob,

You are not the first person who did research to come to their own point of view and make a decision that might have disagreed with previous comments or decisions. 

Good Luck


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