# Atacx gym capoeira: You can fight with it



## ATACX GYM (Jan 23, 2012)

[video=youtube_share;gVD12AY9e0M]http://youtu.be/gVD12AY9e0M[/video]


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 23, 2012)

[video=youtube_share;BCoczuoDlSs]http://youtu.be/BCoczuoDlSs[/video]

[video=youtube_share;mpegUtGIspM]http://youtu.be/mpegUtGIspM[/video]


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 23, 2012)

[video=youtube_share;VNDO5O2qs1o]http://youtu.be/VNDO5O2qs1o[/video]

[video=youtube_share;Wj9AN4OCd8c]http://youtu.be/Wj9AN4OCd8c[/video]


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## Twin Fist (Jan 23, 2012)

no, you cant. All the 1/4 speed compliant partner crap in the world wont make a dance into something combat effective. this isnt.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 23, 2012)

well, maybe you can use it in a fight.

as long as you are fighting your cousin or one of your students in the course of making a video about how awesome you are.

otherwise? do a handstand in a parking lot, see how well it turns out.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 23, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no, you cant. All the 1/4 speed compliant partner crap in the world wont make a dance into something combat effective. this isnt.


Well if "1/4 speed compliant partner crap" is so combatively ineffective, then how can you justify, sir, that you have any skill at all when you showed techs of  LESS THAN 1/4 SPEED and LOWER TECHNICAL DEMAND with this video of yours as part of your 3rd dan test?







Sir, the Brazilian slavers didn't get bored and decide to fabricate 5 centuries of capoeiristas defying them against all odds. Sir, legendary pugilists like Ganga Za Besouro Gigante Zumbi Dos Palmares Mestres Bimba and Pastinha Anderson Silva etc etc weren't crafted out of thin air and are the most empirical refutation to your contentions regarding the inapplicability of capoeira to real world combat. Sir, there is literally no other system in the history of the Americas which is so thoroughly authenticated visavis the oppressed thwarting the oppressors, the enslaved becoming free of their own will and held by their own combat might and razor keen guile than capoeira and its cousins spreading from South America to Haiti...and those successes are recorded by the enslavers; the people and group most invested with hatred for and toward the group to whom they ascribe these scintillating successes.There is only so much that can be conveyed via video and text. I put these videos out for individuals who are more open-minded than you are, sir. You have stated your opposition to capoeira. Fine and noted. You have stated your rather low opinion of me. Fine and noted. My responses then as now remain the same: I don't mind whatever your opinions are about me. I am [ as I stated here on MT and also on KenpoTalk] fully ready to demonstrate my techniques to you in person via energetic sparring against you and/or by less combative direct comparison and contrasting of technique. A single glance at your video as compared to mine shows no doubt that my technical and athletic skills vastly surpass yours, but you're free to indulge in whatever opinion or flight of fancy you wish. I mean this with all due sincerity and cordialness, man. I'm really not mad at you or offended by you. I will meet you at any seminar and any venue in California or hell the Western United States that you wish to name and we can settle our technical differences via direct face to face conversation or comparison and contrast of technique or whatever method that you wish to directly engage in. The choice to step up and substantiate your position or snipe with kolossal keyboard kantankerousness or whatever other means you choose is up to you. Good luck and have fun with that, sir. I mean that sincerely. No anger, ridicule, or belittling by me or from me to you.Everybody else who observes these videos? I hope you chime in with your opinions and can see the applicability which apparently eludes the infamous Twin Fist. If not? That's fine...I do. And I hope you enjoy the videos


.QUOTE=Twin Fist;1455320]well, maybe you can use it in a fight.as long as you are fighting your cousin or one of your students in the course of making a video about how awesome you are.otherwise? do a handstand in a parking lot, see how well it turns out.[/QUOTE]



As for handstands in a parking lot? I'll do you several steps better. How about cartwheel kicks against martial artists in direct competition? Martial artists who are in better shape and blessed with better combat technique than you are, sir?H

How about a cartwheel kick KO in MMA?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3HJoT9j7wo&feature=watch_response

 ANDERSON THE SPIDER SILVA UFC MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMP OF THE WORLD AND GREATEST P4P MMA FIGHTER EVER does capoeira and uses it in MMA







here's some more cartwheel kicks vs opposition better than anyone you'll ever face:


rolling koppou from capoeira 






world muay thai champ and legend Saenchai showing the cartwheel kick in training and with KO's in his bouts:








It's so effective and simple, even kids can do it:







AMANI..."peace"...RAS HEAD COACH OF THE ATACX GYM.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 23, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no, you cant. All the 1/4 speed compliant partner crap in the world wont make a dance into something combat effective. this isnt.


Id argue differently.
Whether or not it is the best option though, is another question again. Capoeira has one thing on its side, and thats "Wait, where the **** did that kick come from?".

That being said;
In Order:

1;
Itd probably be better if he threw a punch or something first, or just generally moved in some direction. Also, i cant help but think that groin punching lowers you down, and risks inefficiency, in that punching a guys penis is a bit different to compressing his testicles. And thats me trying to be diplomatic with the Sites swearing policy 

2;
Kinda makes sense as an entry, for confusion value. And the follow on is what I mean about kicks out of nowere. Albeit it does come at the risk of being leggrabbed.

3;
At 1:01, Id have just done a Wrist and Leg Takedown.

4;
Did you really have to cartwheel away? 
*ahem*
If you were behind him and able to strike him, why not just put a couple more into the kidneys and call him out?

5;
Well, thatll at least hit the testicles.
Id have preferred an Ankle Takedown though.

6;
Cant say i like it. Cant complain though.


In conclusion, yeah, Capeoira can be used to fight. But it can take a bit longer than id like getting to the point, and isnt the best choice. It cant hurt to have its kicks out of nowere though. But it can hurt to punch someone in the ****, and get hooked in the temple. To each their own however - Im not required to approve of everything you come up with, and thisll have to be one such exception, Good Sir.

Capeoira is good, but Id be focusing on setting up its Kicks.
Try a Step Forward Jab to the Head (feint), with both feet in line and facing to the side, then go straight into a drop-kick, or cartwheel kick.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 23, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Id argue differently.
> Whether or not it is the best option though, is another question again. Capoeira has one thing on its side, and thats "Wait, where the **** did that kick come from?".
> 
> That being said;
> ...





this is a better more literate criticism. My response in order:


Video 1: I threw the chassis kick and roundhouse kick along with a palm strike feint first...it's very effective as the opponent has to defend against both kicks and determine if the palm strike is a feint or a strike. While they're engaged with that? It's actually quite simple to enter with a groin strike behind a guard. It flows very well and easily once you get the feel of it down and it's hard for your opponent to respond cogently because he's not used to those kinds of combos being thrown with aplomb at him. Everything else flows from there.

Video 2: The "leg grab" is there only because I extend the meia lua so the camera can see it. The kick is actually a lightning bolt of a heel kick that is very hard to defend against. None of my sparring partners and video partners like this kick being thrown with any kind of speed at them because the destructive power is extreme and so is the speed. The "wth izZAT" factor that you referred to earlier is also a major part of every tech from video 1 to the last video. I also shoot the takedown from here and in every single one of my other vids. Very hard to defend for the reasons previously mentioned.


Video 3: The Wrist and Leg Takedown is also part of capoeira but when I did that before too many people were unaware of that fact and claimed that it wasn't capoeira. I still do it...but I also showed more demonstrably obvious capoeira techs which are likewise very effective from this position

Video 4: The cartwheel escape is highly effective and very unorthodox (surprising) especially against multiple opponents. It simply is difficult to recuperate and properly respond to someone who can bust that move combatively out of nowhere. You have to experience that directly to really appreciate it. It's virtually 100% guaranteed to freeze a guy because he's going WTF??!!! and that quarter of a second or less is all you need to put half of a room between you two or you and him and his group of homies [as I did when I did this tech] or cross the distance and nail him with it.


Video 5: The Ankle Pick/Takedown is also a part of capoeira but even when I show people videos of this they complain and decry its reality. I've already shown video of me doing this and others doing it long before me, so I decided to show a little something else. Never deny the utility of the Ankle Pick in this scenario but never limit yourself to this option either.

Video 6: Most people don't love the carthweel kick. Can't be mad at you there. And then I nail them with it. They may still dislike it...but they become converts to its efficacy. The cartwheel kick isn't for everyone but that's not the same as saying that it's ineffective. I know you weren't saying that it's ineffective or inadvisable, but I am saying that people who lack the skill set to pull it off tend to say that the tech is ineffective and/or inadvisable because they conflate their limits with the techs ability. They're not the same.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 23, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> this is a better more literate criticism. My response in order:
> 
> 
> Video 1: I threw the chassis kick and roundhouse kick along with a palm strike feint first...it's very effective as the opponent has to defend against both kicks and determine if the palm strike is a feint or a strike. While they're engaged with that? It's actually quite simple to enter with a groin strike behind a guard. It flows very well and easily once you get the feel of it down and it's hard for your opponent to respond cogently because he's not used to those kinds of combos being thrown with aplomb at him. Everything else flows from there.
> ...



*nods


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 23, 2012)

Mostly good. I have a couple of critiques though. Vid 3 stands out. Even if you are very quick on your positive, you can be stopped EASILY by a knee or low kick. It would not be hard, and by holding on to his wrist, you give him a point of stability to work from to do so. And since you are going immediately to the positiva, if he does it right, that knee is toast.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 23, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> no, you cant. All the 1/4 speed compliant partner crap in the world wont make a dance into something combat effective. this isnt.



You realitze they were INSTRUCTIONAL videos, right?, there is no reason from the videos to assume automatically tatat they practice e quarter speed.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Mostly good. I have a couple of critiques though. Vid 3 stands out. Even if you are very quick on your positive, you can be stopped EASILY by a knee or low kick. It would not be hard, and by holding on to his wrist, you give him a point of stability to work from to do so. And since you are going immediately to the positiva, if he does it right, that knee is toast.



Keen eye, Josh! I see that I'm going to have to up the level of my video-fu and camera-do and use two cams more often, because at the proper angle we can see that I already addressed these concerns. Unfortunately, I may not have filmed this clip at the proper angle. When I grab his wrist? He's being jerked backwards and at an angle, taking his balance. He can't knee me because he has to regain his balance. To further complicate matters and amp his "joy quotient", I slam the nads with a ridgehand...which has all kinds of salutory effects, including robbing you of balance/dropping you/freezing you in place due to pain,and almost always shoots your hips backward so you do the "butt back cuz my nuts been smacked" dance. This further kills the possibility of a knee strike and/or a low kick. Lastly remember all of this is done in conjunction with a kick and trip, which amplifies all the foregoing and adds the extra ingredient of body momentum which makes it even less likely and faaar more difficult to get off a knee of kick.

A quick countergrab won't save you either, but executing what amounts to a modified hardcore Kenpo tech referred to as DEFLECTING HAMMER on my 1 on 1 might work though...I've done it before but I still got dropped by the tripping leg even when I defended the groin shot. The followthrough is also a double leg blast that "turns the corner" as wrestlers call it, and this too is wholly a part of capoeira and has been documented by Portuguese slavers as being a favorite tactic of Angoleiros.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks for the response. Yeah, maybe a different camera angle might help, because I'm trying to figure how you would jerk him backwards from in front of him. I am sure it's possible, but it seems really unlikely.

I should have been specific on the timing. The knee, kick, or leg check counter while countering the punch. Granted, if you catch me with the punch, or even distract me long enough to hit the groin, there's a VERY high probability that you'll get to the headlock. But, the point of the technique (if I understand right) was if the guy knew how to check a punch. Well let's take it further and say he knows how to check the leg at the same time he checks the punch (not exactly an uncommon tactic in the martial arts.) That's where the ability to pull off the groin shot becomes really doubtful, as well as the subsequent positiva.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 24, 2012)

Might I suggest moving the Camera for each stage of the Clip? You stop and start pretty often, so moving the Camera each time shouldnt be too much trouble. That way, people will not only see the next part of what youre showing, but also the previous parts from a different perspective.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

*chuckle*

again

whats your full name?
where do you "teach"?


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

I was pissed at Twin Fist, and then I googled "Atacx gym Long Beach" an came up blank for an actual location. Now I am intrigued because I can't find a location.

Hey, ras, what's the address of your gym? I can't find it, bro.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> I was pissed at Twin Fist, and then I googled "Atacx gym Long Beach" an came up blank for an actual location. Now I am intrigued because I can't find a location.
> 
> Hey, ras, what's the address of your gym? I can't find it, bro.



I don't own the gym that I sublease out of. I am currently finding a Gym of my own and will finish negotiations for it around March.However, whether a instructor has a dojo or not is NOT the proof of his/her/their skill. The proof of their skill lies in their DOING AND LIVING THEIR ART WITH HONOR INTEGRITY AND HIGH LEVELS OF SKILL. I show my skill via video and via direct expression. There are people onsite right now who can directly vouch for the fact that I can walk in from off the street and teach their brand spanking new White belts how to break bear hugs...with their Kempo salute. Literally the Kempo salute. Not kidding. I know plenty of people with suspect Kenpo and martial arts skills who are excellent businesspeople and own chains of schools...and I know plenty of martial arts ronin who own no schools but who are magnificent exponents of all that is good in martial arts.

In my neighborhoods, many of the people who need martial instruction the most CAN NOT afford to pay monthly tuition at schools. I oftentimes train them in their own apartments or parks or the like. That, to me, is further indication of my dedication to my art...and not conflating one's startup capital and marketing wizardry with one's legit martial skill. Twin Fist asks me what school I teach from. What he SHOULD be doing is showing us his sparring video, his demonstration of self defense techniques, his range breadth and depth of diverse abilities. My videos do all of that...from exercises to multiple martial arts. And martial arts luminaries who see me get down cosign my skill. That, to me, is more than enough.

If I had to choose between being a massive commercial success yet catastrophic martial arts failure both technically and as a human being, and being an outstanding martial artist human being father brother son believer in the Creator and friend? Without a doubt, gentle readers, I would choose the latter.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> *chuckle*
> 
> again
> 
> ...



My full name is RAS FLETCHER. I already told you this, John. Where are your techs demonstrating anything above 1/4 speed? What is your full name? Where do you teach? Who can vouch for you? 

Johh Hackleman...Chuck Liddell's coach...among other senior Kenpoists can vouch that my skillz are legit:






Good stuff.... old school kenpo/kempo/kajukenbo. &#65279; You rock....
johnhacklemanrn          9 months ago        






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Diogenes Assahida, striking coach of Anderson Silva, took a pic with me at the piccinini training center in los angeles after his seminar and said in Portuguese that I'm good:

http://www.myspace.com/dethstryque/...669#mssrc=SitesPhotos_SP_AlbumCover_ViewAlbum


On this very site, several individuals including Sandanchris can directly vouch for my combat ability and my legitimate technical skill. I have travelled in many of the same circles that Doc Ron Chapel has been in, and we know many of the same people ranging from Sijo Muhammad to my uncle Bobby Thomas aka Spider-Man and Chicken Gabrielle. I'm old skool legit and my bangin credentials are impeccable. You, sir, are without such accolades. I can list many more--which I already did on KenpoTalk--but the bottom line with you sir is this:

We have already had this go-round on KenpoTalk.com. You are simply seeking to provoke me and slander my good name merely because that's the kind of guy you seem to be...and when faced with direct challenges as to your legitimacy? You back down and can never furnish legit evidence. Where are your sparring videos? Where are your instructionals? Where is anything that shows that you actually demonstrate skill in martial arts--which is what we're all here and interested in--and do something other than make inflammatory statements and try to goad people with your sillyness? You are not IAGO ,sir, and I am more than a modern day OTHELLO sans the naivete and with a full grown man's inner equilibrium...and Long Beach rock em sock em ghetto child firepower. You are clearly nowhere near prepared for what I can do and routinely bring, and that is fine. Do your own thing, sir, and continue to live your own life without interfering in mine. 

I have never in my life met a grown man who's passionate about what he does to the extent that he makes it a signal part of his life's endeavors who avoids the opportunities to demonstrate his skill knowledge etc as you have and still do. You have yet to respond to any of the challenges I laid at your doorstep, sir. Had you made such a challenge to me? I would have accepted it...especially if I go out of my way to go and pollute your threads as you do to mine. You are likely still smarting from the threat of the ban stick that you received at KT and still stinging from the whoopin I laid down on you here:

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...-a-larry-tatum-black-belt&p=154518#post154518



Sir, all that needs to be said of you and I and your immature abrasive childish attempts to goad me...you said yourself. When you noted that you are a gigantic "***" and "always will be" on KenpoTalk.com. 

http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/show...word-pt-1-atacx-gym-style&p=154810#post154810

I gave Bob and jdinca my word that I would not allow you to draw me into your buffoonery, sir, and I will keep my word. Should you post in my threads again with your unneeded and unsolicited offensiveness, I will immediately petition the administrators to censure you appropriately. Either contribute positively to the discussion or don't enter it...exactly as I don't enter your threads for specifically that reason. We radically disagree in martial arts and politics. Fine and noted. I have sparring video of me which I have posted in the links above, I have noted martial arts legends and masters vouching for me, and you don't and never will. Fine and noted. You somehow have developed an obsessive personal dislike of me based purely upon the posts I make on a virtual website and apparently you are a grown man older than me catchin feelings in my thread. Fine and noted. If I'm wrong about you? EVEN BETTER. I genuinely hope you're not the gigantic "***" that you yourself stated that you are, apparently you're proud of it and claim you always will be an "***".[Your words, not mine. Look at the link to YOUR own posts.]  Look I don't know you personally John and probably never will be and I suspect neither of our lives will be adversely impacted by the lack of the other in our real life circles. So let it go, man. Do some yoga. Think Valium. Try some Buddhist chants. Go to a Rertreat somewhere. Meditate in Yellowstone Park. Do something productive...and do it AWAY from my threads. Forever. 




AMANI..."peace"...


HEAD COACH RAS OF THE ATACX GYM


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> I don't own the gym that I sublease out of. I am currently finding a Gym of my own and will finish negotiations for it around March.However, whether a instructor has a dojo or not is NOT the proof of his/her/their skill. The proof of their skill lies in their DOING AND LIVING THEIR ART WITH HONOR INTEGRITY AND HIGH LEVELS OF SKILL. I show my skill via video and via direct expression. There are people onsite right now who can directly vouch for the fact that I can walk in from off the street and teach their brand spanking new White belts how to break bear hugs...with their Kempo salute. Literally the Kempo salute. Not kidding. I know plenty of people with suspect Kenpo and martial arts skills who are excellent businesspeople and own chains of schools...and I know plenty of martial arts ronin who own no schools but who are magnificent exponents of all that is good in martial arts.
> 
> In my neighborhoods, many of the people who need martial instruction the most CAN NOT afford to pay monthly tuition at schools. I oftentimes train them in their own apartments or parks or the like. That, to me, is further indication of my dedication to my art...and not conflating one's startup capital and marketing wizardry with one's legit martial skill. Twin Fist asks me what school I teach from. What he SHOULD be doing is showing us his sparring video, his demonstration of self defense techniques, his range breadth and depth of diverse abilities. My videos do all of that...from exercises to multiple martial arts. And martial arts luminaries who see me get down cosign my skill. That, to me, is more than enough.
> 
> If I had to choose between being a massive commercial success yet catastrophic martial arts failure both technically and as a human being, and being an outstanding martial artist human being father brother son believer in the Creator and friend? Without a doubt, gentle readers, I would choose the latter.



Let me quote myself from KenpoTalk.com responding to yet another one of Twin Fist's inflammatory posts regarding me and end this matter...

"...Sandan Chris and Clarke are each about 100 pounds heavier than me.They've seen and felt what I can do.They can tell you without a doubt that from a stand still,while talking,and without any significant effort or big wind up...I can knock someone their size not only off their feet but send them FLYING.Who can vouch for YOU?

Do you have ANY SPARRING VIDEO? ANY TECHNIQUE VIDEOS WHEREIN RESISTANCE IS SHOWN BY YOUR PARTNER? NO? YOU DON'T? YET YOU ACCUSE ME OF BEING A POSER? It's obvious,sir,that YOU'RE the charlatan here...in fact? Your antics and dooficity are actually embarassments to any self-respecting charlatan anywhere and everywhere.

"...and how whites are the devil.....thats all he EVER puts out"--TWIN FIST

Now I'm calling you out on that.Show me one post where I EVER dissed ANYONE racially.JUST ONE WILL DO.If you can't? Then I enjoin the moderators here to censure you for the blatant analrifficness of that comment of yours.Saying/implying that I'm a racist would be offensive if it wasn't so laughable and further empirical proof of not only your insecurity but your patheticness.You're a 4th Dan in American TKD but you can't kick a lick? LOLOL.I have videos of me outperforming any kick you've ever done in life RIGHT NOW.Show me ONE high kick you've ever done.JUST ONE HIGH KICK COMBO.Here's me doing one.Hell,here's me doing a COUPLE.






Now post one of you DOING QUALITY MARTIAL TECHNIQUES VS RESISTANCE and NOT KICKING KEYBOARD KRAP,Twin Fist...cuz so far,that's all you specialize in doing.I not only say what I have to say,I prove I can will have been and keep doing what I say I can..."


So please people. Let's not buy into Twin Fist's rabble rousing, ignore him, censure him where needed, and continue to positively associate with one another sans his presence. K? K!


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## Gemini (Jan 24, 2012)

If I can take a moment to interject between in the personal sparring, I just wanted to say I enjoyed the videos. Thanks for posting them. I always have high regard for those who are willing to put their technique up for display in front of their piers.

As for the content, in watching the OP's movement, I believe he's quite capable. For now I'll just leave it at that. As for the technique, I feel they're a little more complicated than your average person can or would do in a self defense situation. Pretty hard sell for a 2 minute video. As instructors, we don't teach martial artists, we create them. They must be able to learn what we're teaching. To that end, my own techniques and those that I teach are more basic with less movement. I feel it gives my students a better chance of success. That's in no way to say yours can't be effective, but it does limit your audience simply because your average "joe" doesn't display your level of dexterity. Good stuff though! Again, thank you! When you get a place, maybe I'll come spend an afternoon and show you how an old man does it. If I break a hip doing a cart wheel, it's on you though. :uhyeah:


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Gemini said:


> If I can take a moment to interject between in the personal sparring, I just wanted to say I enjoyed the videos. Thanks for posting them. I always have high regard for those who are willing to put their technique up for display in front of their piers.
> 
> As for the content, in watching the OP's movement, I believe he's quite capable. For now I'll just leave it at that. As for the technique, I feel they're a little more complicated than your average person can or would do in a self defense situation. Pretty hard sell for a 2 minute video. As instructors, we don't teach martial artists, we create them. They must be able to learn what we're teaching. To that end, my own techniques and those that I teach are more basic with less movement. I feel it gives my students a better chance of success. That's in no way to say yours can't be effective, but it does limit your audience simply because your average "joe" doesn't display your level of dexterity. Good stuff though! Again, thank you! When you get a place, maybe I'll come spend an afternoon and show you how an old man does it. If I break a hip doing a cart wheel, it's on you though. :uhyeah:




thank you very much for the intermission, sir...

Perhaps something along the lines of my variants of these Kenpo techs of my Gym might be more your taste?


[video=youtube_share;hPkcflmZLmI]http://youtu.be/hPkcflmZLmI[/video]


[video=youtube_share;6swpRPoq05Q]http://youtu.be/6swpRPoq05Q[/video]

These next 2 vids are about 3 minutes long each,and are parts 2 and 3 of my variants of CAPTURED TWIGS from Kenpo...

[video=youtube_share;xevT5TPfcGE]http://youtu.be/xevT5TPfcGE[/video]


[video=youtube_share;AKAoR0eDa8I]http://youtu.be/AKAoR0eDa8I[/video]


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## Gemini (Jan 24, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> Perhaps something along the lines of my variants of these Kenpo techs of my Gym might be more your taste?


Yes, these are much more similar to the self defense I teach, though of course, the techniques vary somewhat. Similarly, we use the low licks, foot stomp, groin strike and head butt among others. Your locking technique is effective and I like that you stress the clasp on the wrist because it's the foundation of what makes that technique work. Students always want to loose the grip once the movement migrates from defensive to offensive. I also like that you start will more realistic holds, making the technique more believable. Good stuff!


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

Never saw you answer the question Coach. Thats why i asked again. BTW i lived in Long Beach for 5 years. Learned kenpo there.

and again, I am not the one making claims, so trying to deflect to me is a waste of time. BTW- i didnt even get an infraction, much less a threat of a ban. So you just told a lie. And if i got a "whoppin" i didnt notice, so it wasnt very impressive........./roll

but here is the thing RAS

you put stuff out there, you lose the right to complain about people's reaction to it. I told you I thought you had some skill, so you dont have to go trying to convince me how awesome you are. BTW- i am not known for giving out compliments, so you should feel really good that I complimented your skill. Maybe self promotion is the only mode you operate in, i dont know, and i dont care, really, but you dont need to with me. its boring and pointless.

I am not trying to crow about how awesome I am, so I dont have anything TO prove. I am not even teaching right now, since I went back to college to get my nursing degree.

"*...and Long Beach rock em sock em ghetto child firepower. You are clearly nowhere near prepared for what I can do and routinely bring"
*
is that a threat? or are you trying to intimidate me? cuz it isnt working, sorry.

I dont respond to any challenges because I am not 13 and this isnt ancient Japan

Also, they are a violation of the rules here. Challenges and threats are a no no. 

Here is the bottom line 

You can post vids all day

everyone else gets to comment

those are the ropes, everyone wins

comments are not limited to only those that approve or agree.

if you cant handle disagreement, dont put yourself out there. cuz the thing is, you could say something as obvious as "the sky is blue" someone somewhere will argue with you about how it really isnt. It is the nature of the universe. You, me, no one gets to say people are not allowed to disagree.

you claim this stuff works for real. I disagree. 

those are the breaks.

it isnt personal


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> If I had to choose between being a massive commercial success yet catastrophic martial arts failure both technically and as a human being, and being an outstanding martial artist human being father brother son believer in the Creator and friend? Without a doubt, gentle readers, I would choose the latter.



totally agree


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> Never saw you answer the question Coach. Thats why i asked again. BTW i lived in Long Beach for 5 years. Learned kenpo there.
> 
> and again, I am not the one making claims, so trying to deflect to me is a waste of time. BTW- i didnt even get an infraction, much less a threat of a ban. So you just told a lie. And if i got a "whoppin" i didnt notice, so it wasnt very impressive........./roll
> 
> ...




John, we all know and you know too that the general tenor of your posts in regards to me have been significantly more abrasive than the more rational, evenly balanced post of yours that I have quoted above. I don't think that I need to leave links to the various disparaging and disrespectful names that you have found it needful to call me without any sort of provocation from me. If your posts were in general of a tone and tenor as the above, we would never have had the kinds of disagreements that we have had in our past. I am quite well known for responding with equanimity and equilibrium to dissenting posts as long as the posts aren't blatantly disrespectful or deliberately belligerent. The threads that I left links to show without a doubt that you have thrown abrasive barbs at me like "poser" and other uncalled for comments when I literally hadn't said nary a word to you nor mentioned your name. Okay we get it John...you don't think capoeira works combatively. Fine. We have 5 centuries of documented history including the entire campaign of the Paraguayan war which absolutely factually shows the opposite. You are still entirely entitled to your opinion, no matter how contrary it is to the historical record. I did note that you acknowledged that I have skill and I thank you for that acknowledgement but I also note that your denigration of my person my opinions and your repeated statements that you dislike me personally far outnumber any even tempered posts or even "compliments" you may have tossed my way...so I tend to think that you're more invested in the latter than the former, since your posts are literally 12 to 1 in favor of the latter visavis the former whenever and wherever I'm concerned.

With that being said, I hope that the kinds of posts that I have quoted above become more typical of your posting. Good luck with your nursing degree and martial journey.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

my opinion of you has exactly ZERO to do with my opinion of your opinions in matters related to martial arts. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are people, well known people that I dislike personally. That has nothing to do with my evaluation of their skills. There is a world famous kenpo guy that I had to walk away from when i met him cuz he was an ***.

*" We have 5 centuries of documented history including the entire campaign of the Paraguayan war which absolutely factually shows the opposite. You are still entirely entitled to your opinion, no matter how contrary it is to the historical record."*

we have centuries of documented evidence that muskets work too. Doesnt make it a good idea to use one today does it? Hell, I can produce documented evidence of bigfoot, but you are still only ever gonna see one on a beef jerky commercial.....documented historical evidence means exactly nothing to me. 

you will NEVER convince me that those tricks, and that is all they are, tricks, are viable self defense techniques. I have seen people score in tournament fighting with this stuff, after all, it is un-expected and uncommon
but tournaments aint real

And I dont care what Anderson Silva can do. You aint Anderson Silva and neither am I and neither one of us will ever be that good. And what a professional fighter can do in a contest is irrelevant to self defense for the street were are no rules and the bad guys are never alone.

yes, there are flukes where someone gets caught off guard and gets hit. So dont bother posting all the clips of flukes, accidents and simple good luck

Your claims fly in the face of literally everything ever written about real self defense. Real Self defense can best be summed up as:

KISS

keep it simple, stupid

tricks cant be relied on, handstands are idiocy, and anything that leaves you WIDE OPEN to getting your *** busted, is a very bad idea

In EVERY SINGLE CLIP you posted IF YOU MISS, you will be dead because the trick leaves you WIDE OPEN.

And there is a reason that Casa de Kenpo shows the technique at 1/4 speed AND full speed.

save the tales of you fighting off entire schools of grandmasters. Save the stories of your beach rumbles with 123 ninjas. No one wants to hear you crow about how you can make it work cuz of how much of a bad *** you are. This is a martial arts BB, we are all bad asses. lol 

oh, and to be fair, I call BS on most style of kung fu too. drunken monkey? pfffft please try that crap on the street.

these systems with the outlandish moves are still great martial arts to learn and study and the techniques build our bodies and the culture is awesome and all sorts of satisfying to study and learn

but

some things just dont work when the **** is real. No matter how much of a bad *** the person doing them is.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

You guys might both want to switch to decaf.

Twin Fist, you have been negative from the first post. What was your intent of coming on in the first place? That was rhetorical. Weapon's Law, man. Weapon's Law.

Atacx, the maelstrom of incendiary verbosity was counterproductive to the discussion at hand. In other words, chill out. 

Last time I checked, this is a place for FRIENDLY martial arts discussion. 

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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

WHEATON'S Law. Damn autocorrect.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

autocorrect sucks


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 24, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> You guys might both want to switch to decaf.
> 
> Twin Fist, you have been negative from the first post. What was your intent of coming on in the first place? That was rhetorical. Weapon's Law, man. Weapon's Law.
> 
> ...



Noted...and I don't drink coffee. Lol.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 24, 2012)

I dont really get why Youre argueing with each other - Im pretty sure you two have some background though 

Also, Id suggest You need more Caffeine, and not less. Might I also recommend using Two Sugars?


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## Twin Fist (Jan 24, 2012)

I live on cokes, but i cant drink coffee, tears my stomach up too much. 


ATACX GYM said:


> Noted...and I don't drink coffee. Lol.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

On the plus side, they make calf coke.

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## Josh Oakley (Jan 24, 2012)

Decaf that is

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## jks9199 (Jan 25, 2012)

Folks, this is getting way to personal and way too heated.  Fraudbusting is not tolerated, and some things are getting awful close here.  Leave off the personal attacks, stick to facts and the issue.  If you can't play nice, go somewhere else.

In sum:

*ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Fraudbusting, personal attacks, and challenge posts are forbidden on MartialTalk.  Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Jim Sheeran
jks9199
MT Assistant Administrator*


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Ok, now back to the polite and friendly discussion, Atacx, there are a couple of general comments I have on the videos. I would suggest that you evaluate the combos and perhaps build in some redundancy into them. Vid three is a good example of this. Each move _requires _the prior move work. As you know, in a fight, it it a lot more beneficial to be able to move on to the next thing if the first one doesn't. My two cents.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Thanks for the response. Yeah, maybe a different camera angle might help, because I'm trying to figure how you would jerk him backwards from in front of him. I am sure it's possible, but it seems really unlikely.
> 
> I should have been specific on the timing. The knee, kick, or leg check counter while countering the punch. Granted, if you catch me with the punch, or even distract me long enough to hit the groin, there's a VERY high probability that you'll get to the headlock. But, the point of the technique (if I understand right) was if the guy knew how to check a punch. Well let's take it further and say he knows how to check the leg at the same time he checks the punch (not exactly an uncommon tactic in the martial arts.) That's where the ability to pull off the groin shot becomes really doubtful, as well as the subsequent positiva.




Headlock? Which video of mine are you referring to?


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

The third one. And I meant to say rear naked choke.

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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> my opinion of you has exactly ZERO to do with my opinion of your opinions in matters related to martial arts. It is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There are people, well known people that I dislike personally. That has nothing to do with my evaluation of their skills. There is a world famous kenpo guy that I had to walk away from when i met him cuz he was an ***.
> 
> *" We have 5 centuries of documented history including the entire campaign of the Paraguayan war which absolutely factually shows the opposite. You are still entirely entitled to your opinion, no matter how contrary it is to the historical record."*
> 
> ...



If capoeira is nothing but tricks? Lotsa people have been getting tricked on battlefields over the last 5 centuries and right now as we post drug cartels are being tricked in the favelas in Brazil; and these drug cartels employ hitmen and tons of bad guys rockin machine guns. Lotsa people have been tricked into defeat right here in the streets of Long Beach CA where I and several of my clients and many other mestres have been tricking people for years and even scores of point fighting MMA bareknuckle karate hardcore Thai Muay Thai international Muay Thai and UFC competetiors and champions like Anderson Silva have been tricking people. Seems like alotta people get tricked right to sleep. But hey...I am not trying to convince you, John. Not my intention when I opened this thread. You don't think capoeira is a viable self-defense method? Fine. Noted. Like I said...the literal documents of history and warfare prove you to be absolutely positively factually wrong...but that has nothing to do with your right to trumpet your opinion [ which by definition isn't factual] as loud as you want. Hell my opinion isn't fact either...in this case, however, my opinion is absolutely in alignment with historical fact. Yours is in diametric opposition to it.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/capoeira-history.html


"...As a way of rebellion, the slaves began to kill their white masters, and burnt down the plantations that they were working in. In order to prevent arrest, the slaves sought refuge in mountains near the city of Recife, and received great help from the Indians in and around the areas. In their endeavor to flee, they discovered an area that was rich with palms, gave it the name Palmares, and started their own African community there. Thus, the origins of Capoeira began here, where different African tribes came together to share and discover each others rituals. Along with these rituals, martial arts, dance and games, were also introduced, thus, resulting in the creation of Capoeira.

Soon, Capoeira became a way of rebellion, a symbol of freedom, and a trademark of the slave movement in Brazil. Another influence on the history of Capoeira came when Holland attacked Brazil, to take it over from the Portuguese, the Africans further weakened the Portuguese by employing Capoeira against them, which involved surprising and ambushing their opponents with fast movements. These tactics have formed the basis of Capoeira. In essence, Capoeira was a martial art, but the music and dance had been introduced into it to make it appear less violent. The African communities began to impart the knowledge and techniques among their members. This lethal form of attack finally led to the abolition of slavery in the year 1888 in Brazil.

Capoeira soon became a way of life for several Africans in Brazil, even though slavery had been abolished. Capoeristas, or people who performed this art, found jobs as bodyguards, and it became a helpful tool in strengthening the police services, and in other security services. Even so, people remained wary of this art form, and continued to believe it to be a persistent political threat to the country. This led to the establishment of a law to eliminate all Capoeristas from the country. However, this law was met with strong opposition, and finally the ban on Capoeristas was lifted, when Brazil was at war with Paraguay, which was won only due to the efficiency of the army, predominantly comprising blacks, trained in this art form..."

Apparently whole police forces and politicians were tricked into making alliances with, negotiating with, and combatting capoeiristas when all they had to do is listen to opinions like Twin Fist's and they'd speedily realize that they were facing nothing more than insubstantial inconsequential silly tricks.Apparently whole countries have been tricked to death by capoeristas during times of war. Apparently whole armies have been tricked to death by it in failing to enforce slavery for perpetuity. Apparently the country of Brazil was terrified that it too might be tricked into nonexistence if it allowed capoeira and capoeiristas to proliferate while attempting to abuse the Black,mixed race population, and poor classes there. Apparently, Holland and Brazil were each tricked to death and defeat when they clashed with and/or attempted to exploit via alliances of convenience capoeira guerreros. Apparently, the Brazilian army was ably supplemented by capoeiristas with skill enough to trick Paraguay into thinking that it lost a war. Apparently Anderson Silva can trick his way into the UFC Middleweight championship of the world. 

http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1583941835

"Capoeira evolved as a Brazilian martial art developed initially by that country&#8217;s African slaves. Marked by deft, deceptive movements played on the ground or completely inverted, the form started gaining worldwide popularity in the early 20th century, when this second volume of Gerard Taylor&#8217;s wide-ranging history begins. 

The book opens with a study of the capoeira &#8220;Bamba,&#8221; Mestre Bimba, who became renowned as a fighting champion in Bahia and opened the first legal academy during the dictatorship of Getulio Vargas..."

Capoeira tricked a dictator that came to power knowing of the successes of capoeira in war. If only Getulio Vargas--by all accounts a hard, sometimes cruel, but very shrewd man--knew he was being tricked! He'd've been more successful.

http://www.amazon.com/Capoeira-Jogo-Angola-Luanda-Cyberspace/dp/1556436017

"...The first in a two-volume series on capoeira, Volume One traces the origins of the popular martial art and dance form from the beginning of the slave trade in the Americas in the 1500s to the early years of the Brazilian Republic in the 20th century. Focusing on the people and events that shaped the art form in Brazil prior to the "academy" period of the last century, _Capoeira: The Jogo de Angola from Luanda to Cyberspace_ explores the subject from many vantage points. Author Gerard Taylor explains how the fighting techniques of African forces laid the groundwork for capoeira movements. He shows how work songs, religion, and various percussive traditions and instruments shaped capoeira music over the years. Drawing on archival sources and historical accounts, the book paints a vivid picture of capoeira&#8217;s dramatic evolution from the sugar plantations of Pernambuco through the brutal backstreets of Rio and the Minas Gerais goldmines on its way to becoming a world-class practice..."

http://www.amazon.com/Learning-Capoeira-Lessons-Cunning-Afro-Brazilian/dp/0195176979


"..._Learning Capoeira: Lessons in Cunning from an Afro-Brazilian Art_ is a provocative look at capoeira, a demanding acrobatic art that combines dance, ritual, music, and fighting style. First created by slaves, freemen, and gang members, capoeira is a study in contrasts that integrates African-descended rhythms and flowing dance steps with hard lessons from the street. According to veteran teachers, capoeira will transform novices, instilling in them a sense of malicia, or &#8220;cunning,&#8221; and changing how they walk, hear, and interact._Learning Capoeira_ is an ethnographic study based on author Greg Downey&#8217;s extensive research about capoeira and more than ten years of apprenticeship. It looks at lessons from traditional capoeira teachers in Salvador, Brazil, capturing the spoken and unspoken ways in which they pass on the art to future generations. Downey explores how bodily training can affect players&#8217; perceptions and social interactions, both within the circular roda, the &#8220;ring&#8221; where the game takes place, as well as outside it, in their daily lives. He brings together an experience-centered, phenomenological analysis of the art with recent discoveries in psychology and the neurosciences about the effects of physical education on perception..."


Oh no! Capoeira is tricking droves of highly intellegent, well learned scholars who've minutely studied its background! Oh no say it ain't so, Joe!

Waitaminnit you mean slavers have been noting that capoeira has been around tricking them into letting Africans free by thinking that Africans were beating them up killing them escaping and burning down plantations freeing enslaved workers at goldmines from over 600 years ago to now? That's a whole lotta  tricking going on. I bet that the people who were tricked wished they had a Twin Fist around them to let them know that they weren't really getting beat up killed outsmarted outfought and outmanuevered, they were merely being tricked. Just don't believe the trick and you'll be alive not outsmarted you won the fight you weren't outmanuevered you won the war. Don't believe the trick and you're fine.

To be crystal clear? I provide this information as a means of informing most of the martial arts world which has almost no idea of the actual history and efficacy of capoeira. I am not looking to engage or seeking to sway persuade or argue with Twin Fist regarding this matter. One of the senior capoeiristas on this site informed me that it's his opinion that the elder masters of capoeira wouldn't want the knowledge of its devastating effectiveness to become public knowledge, and I agreed. During the time of the Elder Mestres of Capoeira, capoeiristas were literally fighting to survive a brutal enslaving oppressing regime.

Many of us know of the illustrious histories of our choses Oriental and Occidental martial arts and have become better human beings for it. We have dedicated significant portions of our lives to it. We should also know something similar of capoeira; we should know that it is literally and without a doubt the most documented martial art delivery the oppressed from the oppressors, the enslaved from the enslavers, and bringing joy love and spirituality to all people of all races creeds nationalities genders age groups and more. Or else we can find ourselves at the mercy of people who know nothing but think that they do. We may find ourselves denied of a truly magnificent and perhaps life altering experience and joy. We may find that if we listen to the naysayers and the ignorant and believe their inanity, if we buy their snake oil, if we credit their untruths? We will certainly discover that we have been lied to and that we have been...tricked. And we never had the chance to experience the truth of capoeira.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Pro tip: you would be better off focusing on the technical aspects of the capoeira videos you posted, and saving the history for a thread on the history of capoeira. 

Reasoning: whether it worked in the past or not, what matters is whether and HOW it can be used to fight.

The history is fascinating, and a worthy topic. But in the context of this thread, it is actually a non-sequitor. "YOU can fight with it". Well, none of us have ever been slaves, none of us have fought in a rebellion, and most of us don't live in and have never been to Brazil. 

In the context of this thread, it is the employment of the historicists fallacy. 

So far you have had two people critique your videos as having a basic problem of each move being essential to the success of the next move. And since you have been in a fight or two, you know that it IS a problem.

I am no expert capoeirista, but one thing I learned in the roda is that being able to switch gears and and abandon a plan is essential. In addition, to stack assaults in a way that the opponent has a very slim chance of success against you no matter WHAT he tries is a fundamental aspect of capoiera. 

Capoeira is deception. True. But it is not JUST deception. It is not meant merely to DECEIVE the opponent, but to overwhelm them as well. And you COULD be making these arguments and getting into the technical descriptions of WHY the techniques you posted would work. 

But instead, you talk about Capoeira history. 

And trust me, I am fascinated by capoiera history. But it won't help you win over anyone. It won't help you establish the central point that YOU CAN FIGHT WITH CAPOEIRA... at least not convincingly. 

But you COULD. If you focus on the technical aspects. And frankly, you are going to have to give some ground on this topic. Any combination that absolutely requires the success if each preceding attack to be able to pull off each subsequent attack is DEEPLY flawed, both from the standpoint of Self Defense in general, and capoeira in specific. 

Capoeira has no specific combination cannon, though there are mestres that will have a fondness for certain combs. And this is because capoeira is fluid in its approach.

Your combos have a lot of good going for them. But they CAN be better. And I know you can take a straightforward, reasoned critique, because you have done so before.

Now as far as the videos themselves, you need more camera angles, and you need to show the move at full speed, or as close enough to full speed for the viewer to get the idea of the move. And show in a little bit more detail what you can do with the combo, how you can modify it, at each point where the technique could fail. And the reason to do this is: that's in capoeira as well!

Hell, you could probably win over even a guy like Twin Fist if you show how a capoeirista deals with getting his arm kicked out from under him when attempting a handstand kick. And as a bonus, showing that kick full speed can demonstrate just how little time there is to actually attempt such a thing in the first place. 

Seriously, if you focus on THOSE aspects, you will be more effective in your delivery.

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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

first 500 years old,  now it's 600 years old, by tomorrow it will have been created by adam, and will be the technique cain used to kill abel.......

i dont care about the past

all 12000 of those words were just smoke and a waste of electrons, since they lend zero credibility to your opening position: this works for modern self defense.

create a thread about the history, add the FACT that none of the history can really be PROVEN and like MOST arts history is shrouded in myth and legend and that will be interesting reading.

for this subject, in this thread, all that is just useless verbiage.


Josh is also correct here:

 Any combination that absolutely requires the success if each preceding attack to be able to pull off each subsequent attack is DEEPLY flawed, both from the standpoint of Self Defense in general, and capoeira in specific. 

tricks dont work, and more importantly, anythign that leaves you that open to counter attack is stupid to even try.

go back to the drawing board, inject some reality into your theory and see if you can come up with some part of this art that doesnt leave you totally exposed.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> I am no expert capoeirista, but one thing I learned in the roda ...



Hey Josh,

what's your background with capoeira?  thanks!


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> first 500 years old,  now it's 600 years old, by tomorrow it will have been created by adam, and will be the technique cain used to kill abel.......
> 
> i dont care about the past
> 
> ...



Sigh. I don't know if you realize this or not, but even when you are taking the more logical approach, you come off as so incredibly hostile. Seriously. Drop the vitrol, it makes even your earnest attempts at rational discussion seem like direct personal attacks. 

And yes, tricks do work. Deception works in both hand to hand combat and full scale war. And as far as handstand kicks, or cartwheel kicks... Well actually they can work, if the guy is fast enough, and the terrain isn't slippery. Will they work for me or you? Well no, not in general. We are both a little on the heftier side. We can't accelerate fast enough. I can do it, but by the time I have overwhelmed the guy enough to attempt it, there are other options available to me that are more economic.

But a taller, lighter, skinner guy, on flatter, drier ground than what is normally available in Seattle... I've been kicked in the head enough times to say empirically that yes it does. Unfortunately, the only guy I know personally who can do it lives in LA. Next time he comes up here, I'll see if he is willing to beat my *** on video.

But the thing is, you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight. This begs the question of why you are bothering to post in the first place. If you are already 100% dismissive of the concept in the first place, and nothing will change your mind on the subject, what is there to discuss?

Furthermore, the attitude is unscientific. If one of us showed you exactly how it could be set up to work, performed it multiple times on video, against different types if opponents, then actually went out into the street, and picked multiple fights, using said tricks to win, and explained the physics behind the move... Well like you have said, nothing can change your mind, right? This isn't an empirical approach. 

Lastly, there is one thing I disagree with you entirely: this concept that anything that leaves you open to counterattack is too stupid to even try. Well... That is every attack! EVERY attack leaves you open to counterattack. Name me one attack that can't be countered.

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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> Hey Josh,
> 
> what's your background with capoeira?  thanks!



Nothing formal. I lived in a house for a few years with guys from various backgrounds. One of them had trained capoiera. And when we would spar, he used it quite a bit. We all exchanged information, and he taught us some of the basic moves, terminology, and philosophy behind it. 

So when I say I am no expert capoierista, I say it in earnest. But I have played the roda ,poorly, and got my *** handed to me multiple times. And I have had capoiera used against enough times to have experienced its effectiveness first hand.

I miss that house. Some of the most glorious *** whoopings I have ever received were at the hands of those guys.

It was a wonder any of us ever got girls to hang out, though. My wife likes to remind us repeatedly about the pervasive stench of BO and feet.

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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> The third one. And I meant to say rear naked choke.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



[video=youtube_share;BCoczuoDlSs]http://youtu.be/BCoczuoDlSs[/video]


Okay I think I take your meaning here. The Speed Trap does two things at once: it allows the lead weapon to hit whatever the selected target is without obstruction by the lead limb and it simultaneously uses the opponent's own lead limb to cross up and obstruct the deployment of the opponent's lead limb. I address this very concern from 1:28-1:30 of this video. Now I get to the back pretty easily and that is why I deploy the groin shot...each part of the attack [ negating my opponent's lead kick, speed trap, groin strike, passagem] can end the fight prior to the rear naked choke being deployed.

From 0:57-0:59 I execute the Speed Trap from my preferred combative angle. I use an explosive movement that we call EXPLOSION to close the distance suddenly on my opponent. My raised leg prevents any low line counter kick or low line takedown before I've closed the distance and applied the Speed Trap to the face and the groin. From my favored position which I display from 0:57-0:59, my passagem sweeps to the REAR leg of my opponent, not his lead leg, and it makes the RNC much easier. This is what I do 90% of the time.

But what happens most of the time is that others who aren't used to this tech will execute it and find themselves in less than ideal situations and positions. This is what I cover from 1:20-1:44. Notice that I land in a split stance with one leg in front of my opponent instead of my preferred position with both feet behind my opponet. My point in this segment is that once you close the distance, all you have to do is keep going with the rest of the sequence of techs and you'll wind up with the RNC or at least a sweep and an escape out the back door at worst.

When sparring with this tech, the hardest part for people to get used to is the sweep entry to the back. I teach this after we've already learned how to arm drag to the back and learned several other basic movements to achieve the back. The Trap and groin shot really helps add to the confidence that the student has prior to executing the sweep kick...and then we just rep it out. Quality muscle reps against resistance [ we call this Isolated Sparring ] very speedily downloads the requisite skills. It's really no problem once we start moving. I usually have brand newbs doing this tech against resistance inside of 25 minutes.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Nothing formal. I lived in a house for a few years with guys from various backgrounds. One of them had trained capoiera. And when we would spar, he used it quite a bit. We all exchanged information, and he taught us some of the basic moves, terminology, and philosophy behind it.
> 
> So when I say I am no expert capoierista, I say it in earnest. But I have played the roda ,poorly, and got my *** handed to me multiple times. And I have had capoiera used against enough times to have experienced its effectiveness first hand.
> 
> ...




cool enough, there's not many people here I think, with a capoeira background.  When someone rears their head I get curious to know their connection.

I had trained obsessively for a number of years back in the 1990s, until I drifted into the Chinese arts and came to the conclusion that capoeira wasn't the best fit for me.  But I was hardcore about my training when I was doing it, there was a time when I couldn't get enough of it.  I was reasonably accomplished and was one of the senior students in my school at that time, could play a respectable game but also knew where I stood in the bigger picture.  I was a somewhat bigger fish in a fairly small lake, but I was a graduated student which is kinda equivalent to a shodan or something like that.

anyway, interesting to see that there are others here who know at least a little bit about it.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.

And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.

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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> [video=youtube_share;BCoczuoDlSs]http://youtu.be/BCoczuoDlSs[/video]
> 
> 
> Okay I think I take your meaning here. The Speed Trap does two things at once: it allows the lead weapon to hit whatever the selected target is without obstruction by the lead limb and it simultaneously uses the opponent's own lead limb to cross up and obstruct the deployment of the opponent's lead limb. I address this very concern from 1:28-1:30 of this video. Now I get to the back pretty easily and that is why I deploy the groin shot...each part of the attack [ negating my opponent's lead kick, speed trap, groin strike, passagem] can end the fight prior to the rear naked choke being deployed.
> ...



But you still failed to address my original criticism of what you do if the guy counters the first punch and SIMULTANEOUSLY knees or leg checks your stepping foot. In that case, the groin shot is inadequate, because you aren't in position to fire it off.

That is the biggest hole in this offense. I was remindedast night by a drunken transient just how easy it is to buckle even a trained martial artist's knee. And no, your raised leg does not prevent a leg check or knee... At least not once you have stepped and dedicated that leg to movement.

There is also the possibility that the opponent rolls with the first punch and attempts a spinning elbow. Not the goin shot isn't available, and you are in a catch 22. If you hold on to the wrist, the momentum of the elbow pulls you through and you are now positioned way too far in front of him and you lose all chance at the groin shot, and the positiva become a dangerous idea. If you let go of the wrist, you are still in danger of the spinning elbow.

The move also assumes the opponent will just be standing there, which in unlikely.

There are other potential fail points at each step, and they can and should be addressed. And they would make for an INCREDIBLE video if you did. One thing a lot of people do when they look at the techniques is think that any single point, their combo could be disrupted and figure out how they would defeat their own combo at every step.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Pro tip: you would be better off focusing on the technical aspects of the capoeira videos you posted, and saving the history for a thread on the history of capoeira.
> 
> Reasoning: whether it worked in the past or not, what matters is whether and HOW it can be used to fight.
> 
> ...




Just saw this post. Excellent post as usual brutha. And you're right...I know of no human endeavor that can't be improved vastly [ even the mouse trap,lol]. I already talked to my cameramen before I saw this post about using more angles and slo-mo so I can go full speed and then have him have the video go slow mo right behind it with a voice over so people can see what I'm doing and follow the verbal instructions.I like the idea of showing some of the techs at greater speed but some of my sparring partners aren't so enthused with that concept, lololol. As you know, even when it's not coming at you to hit you? Having full speed capoeira techs thrown at you can be a very very unnerving experience.Lolol. But your point is well taken, I thank you for them,I have reflected upon them. So allow me to respond:

As you know, capoeira and pretty much any art has the option to adapt or delete moves mid-stream. Capoeira is especially adept at doing so due to the unique specifics of its history. Any of the techs can be deleted adjusted or altered at some point or other and the techs will still work fine.

Video 1:

You can delete the kick combo just use footwork and shoot in with the low line attack and flow back up. Look at the first 6 seconds where I'm moving and feinting. I don't HAVE to do that...I could just shoot in if I want and be every bit as confident of my success as a wrestler is when he shoots in for the double leg blast. Except that my striking limbs actually close the distance faster than the wrestler's tackle because I'd be moving at double leg speed with a shield in front of my face and launching a strike at the last moment. I could do just that and then go about my business. I could immediately feint a shot takedown, throw the groin punch as bait, then flow up with the backfist palm strike and simultaneous knee all at once then ginga out. I could delete the kicks and takedown altogether and simply trap-strike and ginga out. No tech in the sequence is irrevocably chained to the preceding or following tech. Which you know.

TESOURO TO ACHILLES LOCK

I simply showed one of my secondary setups. I could simply explosively close the distance and execute the tesouro similar to this:

CUNG LE SCISSOR LEG TAKEDOWN

http://youtu.be/glNedroM7As

but in capoeira we don't stay on the ground. We flow back up to the esquiva frente or vingativa or any position you feel most comfy with in capoeira. The constant motion horrifically compounds the damage of the Achilles Lock and even though we practice it in my Gym at sparring speed? Nobody really wants to volunteer for it to be done on video to them, so that's why I elected to stay on the ground after executing this tech. If you look at 1:37-1:39 you'll see my cousin Chris' eyes widen as I apply the Achilles Lock. Even gently executing the technique causes discomfort. He made it clear that he didn't want me to execute the full Tesouro to Achilles Lock while in Vingativa before we even started filming, and I honored his wishes. I could forego the tesouro altogether and simply use the setup at 0:54 to ginga to a right leg lead which places me at my cousin's back and belly to back suplex him into the Achilles Lock. None of these techs are essential to the success of the others. 

REAL WORLD GINGA AND AU VS SINGLE AND MULTIPLE OPPONENTS

At 1:56 I could insert a knee to the groin before I slip to my cousin's back, I could head butt him, bite his chest. I could insert a ridgehand to the groin from the front or rear just before, as or immediately after I ginga to Chris' back. I could shoot the double and au and ginga escape after ward. I could break the clinch and ginga and au or either one of them singly. No tech is essentially linked to the other.


As for kicking a arm out from under a capoeirista...mid-cartwheel? Real hard to do. Reeeaaaaallll hard to do. I have however trained with cartwheels done on the forearms for awhile, and we have long been doing cartwheel-rolls sooo...I guess we can definitely add those aspects to video if they're edifying in any significant way.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> Just saw this post. Excellent post as usual brutha. And you're right...I know of no human endeavor that can't be improved vastly [ even the mouse trap,lol]. I already talked to my cameramen before I saw this post about using more angles and slo-mo so I can go full speed and then have him have the video go slow mo right behind it with a voice over so people can see what I'm doing and follow the verbal instructions.I like the idea of showing some of the techs at greater speed but some of my sparring partners aren't so enthused with that concept, lololol. As you know, even when it's not coming at you to hit you? Having full speed capoeira techs thrown at you can be a very very unnerving experience.Lolol. But your point is well taken, I thank you for them,I have reflected upon them. So allow me to respond:
> 
> As you know, capoeira and pretty much any art has the option to adapt or delete moves mid-stream. Capoeira is especially adept at doing so due to the unique specifics of its history. Any of the techs can be deleted adjusted or altered at some point or other and the techs will still work fine.
> 
> ...



Now we are getting somewhere useful. We could probably dedicate a thread to each video where we analyze the crap out of each video, and another one dedicated solely to video production concepts. Actually, we SHOULD. And I am game if you are.


So, point one, put your partner in a helmet. A motors helmet. No, seriously. Better yet, put him in full motocross gear even. Helmet, neckroll, spine protection... The works. Basic sparring headgear wouldn't be enough, obviously.

Video 1 I will skip for now because I haven't looked at it closely enough yet.

Obviously, I am not suggesting the Achilles lock be demonstrated full speed. Recipe for disaster.

Kicking out a capoierista's arm is tough to do, true... However, it can be done. And trained for. And trained AGAINST.

... and it IS trained, so why discount it? You have trained more capoeira than me so I would imagine you know that is the case. 

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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh, you are reading me wrong. Let me be as clear as I possibly can be without getting into one syllable words:

tricks can work. No question. 

that does not make them a good idea. Just because you get lucky and get away with something stupid the first time doesnt mean you need to press your luck and try it every time. Like i told you in the first thread about this garbage, I hooked up with a bikini model once. Doesnt mean i was able to everytime i tried.....

a trick might work, but you cant rely on something that requires LUCK to pull off.

now, you could say "nothing works all the time"

thats true. thats why you play it safe and stick to your highest percentage tools. Cuz in REAL combat, you cant afford to lose. 

so this:

*"you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight."
*
should read as this:

Absolutely nothing can or will convince me this crap is practical or suitable for REAL self defense.


For point fighting? sure, try it out, nothing to lose. For MMA? go for it, worst case, you get knocked out and lose a fight, big deal.

for self defense? get over the delusions of being some sort of craptastic super hero and stick to the basics, they are basics for a reason.

practical
safe
economic
effective

SURE, you kick someone in the head, for WHATEVER angle, and ring that bell, you win. 

but

dont rely on that head kick, cuz if it misses, your *** is grass. And again, when it is for REAL, losing means dying.

COULD this work?

sure, so could acting like i have a gun in my pocket, ala grand tourino, or screaming at the top of your lungs, that COULD work, but you cant count on it, now can you?

to quote Chris Rock "you can drive a car with your feet, that dont make it a smart ****ing idea"


also, to add, i didnt say "anything that leaves you open is a bad idea" i said

"anything that leaves you THAT open is a bad idea".

There is no more vulnerable position i can think of than in a handstand. Seriously, thats just stupid. Keep yourself in the proper north south orientation. Does that even need to be said? yes, everything leaves you open to SOME extent. So minimize your exposure

in other words, no handstands, no cartwheels, no superman crap.

it might work, it might get you dead. plus, WHY do some fancy low percentage crap when you can just kick thier knee out and elbow them in the face till they stop moving?




Josh Oakley said:


> Sigh. I don't know if you realize this or not, but even when you are taking the more logical approach, you come off as so incredibly hostile. Seriously. Drop the vitrol, it makes even your earnest attempts at rational discussion seem like direct personal attacks.
> 
> And yes, tricks do work. Deception works in both hand to hand combat and full scale war. And as far as handstand kicks, or cartwheel kicks... Well actually they can work, if the guy is fast enough, and the terrain isn't slippery. Will they work for me or you? Well no, not in general. We are both a little on the heftier side. We can't accelerate fast enough. I can do it, but by the time I have overwhelmed the guy enough to attempt it, there are other options available to me that are more economic.
> 
> ...


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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

I was from TKD when i learned kenpo, and i got the same thing:

"that isnt how we do it"

*WHACK*

"but it clearly works so thats great, keep"

WHACK

"Doing it"




Josh Oakley said:


> Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.
> 
> And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> But you still failed to address my original criticism of what you do if the guy counters the first punch and SIMULTANEOUSLY knees or leg checks your stepping foot. In that case, the groin shot is inadequate, because you aren't in position to fire it off.
> 
> That is the biggest hole in this offense. I was remindedast night by a drunken transient just how easy it is to buckle even a trained martial artist's knee. And no, your raised leg does not prevent a leg check or knee... At least not once you have stepped and dedicated that leg to movement.
> 
> ...






Actually I did...see the "stepping foot" is a leg and knee check. Go back and slow down the execution of the movement from 0:22-0:57. slow down frame by frame from 0:56-0:58.I nuetralize my opponent's ability to to knee or leg check my lead foot because my lead foot,and I don't step with my lead leg I do a tech I EXPLODE OFF OF MY REAR LEG with my lead leg in the air and I don't put it down until my foot is behind my opponent. My lead left leg is higher than my opponent's lead right leg. This makes it impossible for him to knee me because he needs his knee to be raised high enough to do so and my knee and leg are in the occupying space, and that stops him. So he can't block my knee. That's one of the main advantages of using this tech. You see it lots in even point karate where they use the "jousting backfist" but first explosively close the distance on their opponent. They rely upon speed and deception and the placement of their lead knee over the lead leg of their opponent to prevent their opponent from countering with lead leg techs. We fighting capoeiristas do the same thing but with alot more malandragem.

But even if he did do so? Just fire the ridgehand to the groin from the front of your opponent. No technique is predicated upon the mandatory success of the other. Like the jab-cross, it's good if both work, but either one could work independently and neither requires the other. If the jab-cross is checked off, the boxer can simply jab-cross again. If the entry for this tech is checked off, the capoeirista--master of movement timing and rhythm--will simply flow into another movement and could easily repeat this same sequence from another position or another setup. Or I could stay right there. Look at the sequence from 1:22-1:31. I could simply fire the groin strike from the rear and execute the passagem and go for the RNC there. Or I could double up on the strike after the speed trap. I'd have the advantage. Again, the speed surprise and technical execution of the tech is very very hard to deal with,and that's why it enjoys such success when deployed. A spinning elbow isn't fast enough nor does the recipient of a Speed Trap have his body properly aligned to follow with a elbow strike.

If my opponent eluded my trapping hand? He gets hit by my lead striking hand. The technique and the followthrough makes it very hard to counter in the ways that you're suggesting. I've had numerous people try and it's never worked that way. I've had a few people try to crash the line as I close on them and body clinch me,and they smothered the punch. But they still got hit by my punch and my lead leg [closing on me turns the explosing into a strong knee attack made all the more powerful because your added body momentum crashes into the lead knee ], they ahd to address and oftentimes couldn't get passed the lead leg...and if they did? Cool, we grappled for a moment, I hit them in the groin, and followed with the passagem and RN.

 My cousin is taller than me and he has longer reach [ most people are taller than me; I'm only 5'7" ]. If I failed on the speed trap, the punch is still delivered and I have the advantage. If he checked my Speed Trap and checked my punch, he's still not possessed of the proper body alignment to counter with a rolling elbow because the energy of my forward movement transfers into him and he has to first regain his balance. Even momentarily doing that allows me to shoot the ridgehand to the groin and follow with any part of the rest of the sequence that I choose, or readjust to another position and do it again.

Yeah...I think you're right here too...high speed execution of this tech makes these points of mine alot clearer and answers your questions preemptively. I'm going to do that from now on.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Now we are getting somewhere useful. We could probably dedicate a thread to each video where we analyze the crap out of each video, and another one dedicated solely to video production concepts. Actually, we SHOULD. And I am game if you are.
> 
> 
> So, point one, put your partner in a helmet. A motors helmet. No, seriously. Better yet, put him in full motocross gear even. Helmet, neckroll, spine protection... The works. Basic sparring headgear wouldn't be enough, obviously.
> ...



I LIKE THE IDEA OF ANALYZING THE CRAP OF EACH VIDEO. Back on KenpoTalk which was my first experience with a TMA website, I called this very thing a "Kenpo Lab" and that's what I wanted. I think then and now that collectively we can craft better techs than any of us or any organization could do on its lonesome. So yeah I'm down. Isn't there a technique section of MT?

Unfortunately I have zero motorcycle equipment available. Zero Red or Blue Men. In my hood? Red and Blue Men are Bloods and Crips. And I'll film the counter to an attempted kick in the face and a kick to the arm of a capoeirista within a week of Thursday. Promise. It's a basic part of the combat instruction of the au--cartwheel--like shoulder placement, direct retraction to the starting point,and keeping your rear hand up near your cheek is part and parcel of being taught how to jab...at least, when you're taught by quality coaches [ capoeira and/or boxing].


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> Interestingly enough, when I was in SKK, my instructors always liked my crescent, reverse crescent, and especially wheel kicks, but laughed at me because I never threw them like a kempoka. They didn't stop it because the kicks worked.
> 
> And they never looked quite like SKK.... because I had drilled them originally in the context of capoiera.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk




One of my BBs is in SKK...another thing that we have in common...


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> Josh, you are reading me wrong. Let me be as clear as I possibly can be without getting into one syllable words:



Well, I am glad you are deciding to clarify. But if I am reading you wrong, it is because I am reading you literally. Let's take a look.



> tricks can work. No question.


Direct contradiction with what you said earlier, which was:" tricks dont work". This is a direct quote from post #41. Either they CAN work or they DON'T work. The terminology is mutually exclusive.

Now for the rest.




> Just because you get lucky and get away with something stupid the first time doesnt mean you need to press your luck and try it every time.



This is an argument based on an an assumption that a cartwheel is in fact lucky rather than skillful. And that assumption neglects setup, practice, speed, position, etc. 

You haven't based this on experience, as was established in the last thread, and really the only way you could empirically test the idea is to drive the 4.5 hours to Austin and test it out at a capoeira school. You really don't care enough about this point to do that, and frankly I don't blame you. 9 total hours of drive time, not counting rest stops, food, and the experiment itself... Well that is more effort than I would make myself.

But the thing is, without that, you are making an argument from assumption, which is a fallacious line of reasoning. You haven't established that point, and your further points are based on this one. 




> Like i told you in the first thread about this garbage, I hooked up with a bikini model once. Doesnt mean i was able to everytime i tried.....



And this actually is making a similar point I made already. You probably won't get more than the one bikini model. I have slightly better chances, (based on relative youth and sexiness), but they still aren't very high. 

But to tie this statement to my similar statement, my friend that can pull off the cartwheel kicks with much greater ease, skill, and success than we can is much leaner, taller, and faster than either of us. He also is a model, aspiring actor, accomplished hip hop/pop/break dancer, and is a LOT better looking than either of us. (So you know I am not making the guy up, his name is Quinton Bunche, and is dance name is Vicious Groove.) He has dated MULTIPLE models, and has also had more exposure to models, and has worked his ability to attract models a lot more than either of us. This is not attributed to luck, except in the sense that ANY human interaction is tied to luck. 



> thats why you play it safe and stick to your highest percentage tools. Cuz in REAL combat, you cant afford to lose.



Which is why a cartwheel kick falls at the very bottom of my took box. Because I can't pull it fast enough to work it. And in Seattle I am always on a hill, so it isn't much of an option for me anyway. 

But because I can't do it well does not mean it can't be done well for a person who is better equipped, even in a street fight.




> so this:
> 
> *"you have already stated unequivocally that absolutely nothing could convince you that any of the capoiera tricks could possibly work in a street fight."
> *
> ...


The operator here is "absolutely nothing could convince me", to which I bring up all my original objections.



> SURE, you kick someone in the head, for WHATEVER angle, and ring that bell, you win.



Yes.




> but
> 
> dont rely on that head kick, cuz if it misses, your *** is grass.


Unfounded. If YOU miss maybe. I have missed a head kick and been fine.



> And again, when it is for REAL, losing means dying.[/.quote]
> 
> Hyperbole. And, statistically, bullcrap. Compare violent crimes to homicides, and that is very obviously not the case. If losing means dying, I would have died a number of times already.
> 
> ...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> drive the 4.5 hours to Austin and test it out at a capoeira school.
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



Austin capoeira?  Is that Cafuringa?  I know him, he baptized me in the San Francisco ABADA Capoeira group batizado back in...I'd say it was about 1996 or so.  Hey Josh, if you run into him, tell him Cruzado says "Hi!"

I played a fair bit with Cafuringa, he was an affiliated ABADA Group instructor, taught in Santa Cruz and then Maui for a while, came back to the SF Bay area for a while before going to Austin where he went solo and separated from ABADA.  He would come in and out of our school at times and play in our rodas, good fun that guy was.  Rough and tumble, liked to scrap a bit.  I remember one roda where he was coming at me hard and fast, and to my amazement I kept evading him and he was missing his shots.  So we played a game later and he nailed me in the ribs with a kick and threw me about ten feet out of the roda.  I knew that was coming, it was just a matter of minimizing the damage on the inevitable.  He was out to get me that day and I was outclassed.  But he respected me.

You wanna find a capoeirista who likes to fight and probably wouldn't be above stepping out to prove it?  Cafuringa would probably be one willing to do it.  He's not afraid to put his money where his mouth is.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

See, there you go, twin fist. Your opportunity for empiricism.

FC, all I did was Google search for the nearest capoeira school to him. This was actually the closest I could find.

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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> See, there you go, twin fist. Your opportunity for empiricism.
> 
> FC, all I did was Google search for the nearest capoeira school to him. This was actually the closest I could find.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



ah, gotcha.  Well, I believe Cafu is in that area, probably him that you found.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> I LIKE THE IDEA OF ANALYZING THE CRAP OF EACH VIDEO. Back on KenpoTalk which was my first experience with a TMA website, I called this very thing a "Kenpo Lab" and that's what I wanted. I think then and now that collectively we can craft better techs than any of us or any organization could do on its lonesome. So yeah I'm down. Isn't there a technique section of MT?



Not one for capoeira. For kempo, yes.



> Unfortunately I have zero motorcycle equipment available.



You have zero motorcycle equipment available SO FAR!

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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

josh, word of wisdom from an old dude to a young dude

It isnt hyperbole, it is experience. Always assume losing a fight means you will loose your life. I watched a guy bleed out right in front of me in Long Beach in a friggin parking lot cuz the hood rat shot him after he lost the fight. Hell, i was almost stabbed in Olongopo in the phillipines. I just got lucky and noticed the guy looking at me really hard before he made a move. I could have died.

you lose in a point match? no problem. You lose in the ring? hey, when you wake up you will be just fine. One the street? you lose you just may DIE. Remind yourself of and it will keep you away from fights you dont HAVE to be in. When the alternative is dying, you avoid everything you can avoid. The fact that you have, like myself, avoided dying so far just makes us lucky, and even for us, sooner or later luck will run out. 

I meant what i said, i am just trying to be fair. I dont think tricks WILL work, but i allow that they CAN work. That isnt a contradiction to my way of thinking, if it seems that way to yours, sorry.

I dont have to test the capoeira tricks, i have seen LOTS of tricks tried, and almost all failed. tricks are just that, tricks. I will not rely on tricks. If it is an assumption based on experience, it isnt fallacious.

*"Which is why a cartwheel kick falls at the very bottom of my took box. Because I can't pull it fast enough to work it. And in Seattle I am always on a hill, so it isn't much of an option for me anyway."* 

this is  100 logical and well thought out. For me, i wont even bother to learn something i will never use.

sorry, i can take more abuse in a push up position than in a hand stand. Maybe you are different, but i doubt it.

Finally, something for you to ponder. You mentioned Weaton's law?

consider this stuff and then add the element of MURPHY'S LAW

THATS why this will never be considered practical realistic self defense.

then again, there is also that clip of an actual fight breaking out during the rota, and what di those fearsome dancing warriors do? wrestled around like 4 year olds on a playground. Prob because they spent so much time learning how to dance they never bothered to learn how to throw a punch......


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

Twin Fist... I think we are done here. Seriously. You have no intention on changing your mind at all. Much love for you, old man, and there is a lot we can discuss... But this is just one where we are going to disagree on. Because our experiences are vastly different. And because you are not interested in a different viewpoint. 

And, honestly... We already had this whole discussion before, and it is taking on a similar pace and tenor as the last one, and will go most likely the same exact place as last time: nowhere. Can we just agree to disagree on this one and go back to deriding socialism on the Study?

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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

The problem with all of the above, Twin Fist, is that you're conflating your dislike of this techinque FOR YOU with:


1) It's effectiveness for others.

2) The FACT that capoeiristas have been recorded as pulling their techs off during war and every single kind of combat and mayhem under far worse conditions than anything that we can imagine as a practical reality. And this information was meticulously recorded as being successful vs men with guns knives whips swords dogs superior numbers horses ships and cannons...BY PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM AND HAVE EVERY VESTED REASON TO DENIGRATE THEM IN EVERY WAY. The people who hate them...are the most meticulous chroniclers of their amazing feats. Which means that:


3) The very techniques that you denigrate have been regularly executed against trained and determined enemies armed with cannon swords guns machine guns etc etc when death for the loser was the only outcome...and the capoeiristas regularly succeeded. Because they're still here. And the people who hate them most? Yeah those would be the people recording the successes of these capoeiristas against them.

4) You conflate skillful expressions of agility, dexterity, and centuries worth of proven combat applicability with "tricks". The only "trick" is that the skilled martial artist will "trick" you into moving your hands away from your head so he can put his foot there. Reaallly fast and reaallly hard.


5) I live still on these very same streets of Long Beach. I live near Cherry and 10th, one of the most deadly areas in Long Beach. Saw a fight between druggies just today, right outside my apartment. Hood rat girl pulled a gun on the other druggie dude who was threatening her bf...or maybe he was the guy who was gonna pay her for a trick. I materialized near her, told her to put the gun down, she said:"Oh ***** it's Karate Cuzz!" and left on the spot. Know why? She'd witnessed me clean house in the Top Valu parking lot with the same "tricks" that you said doesn't work EVER, when that statement is massively false and empirically, proveably untrue.

 And yeah one of the BGs had a Dillinger on him but he still couldn't beat my capoeira. 

Capoeira--the very embodiment of malandragem and malicia--looks upon Mr. Murphy's arrival as a GOOD thing...because Capoeira has a looong relationship with Murphy's Law and when Mr. Murphy comes a-callin? Capoeira usually siccs Mr. Murphy on THE OTHER GUY. Consider how surprising a lightning bolt capoeira attack is to martial artists...and then amplify that to the bajillionth degree for some untrained schmuck of a bad guy.


 6. "It isnt hyperbole, it is experience. Always assume losing a fight means you will loose your life..."--Twin Fist

Uhhh...capoeiristas were ex slaves and always belonged to a force that countered that of the state or at least defied it. What for you is primarily a post on the internet wherein you recite what you might have witnessed happening to someone else was one of the more TAME ways to die for them, and that threat of death was ever-prevalent. Because...you know...defiant slaves and defiant freedom fighters were more than killed; they were horrifically systematically brutishly tortured to death in order to provide an object lesson and warning for anyone else considering such behaviour. And there were still hundreds of capoeiristas who faced and overcame not only the threats but the armed, trained, agents of these threats who were generally sharply superior in number to the capoeiristas themselves. These magnificent warriors consistently overcame such odds with such regularity that even the castes which hated them applauded their magnificence and recorded their heroism. D

on't take my word for it, observe in his Book Capoeira Angola as Waldeloir Rego brings us the scene of urban chaos in his quoting of Carl Von Koseritzs 1833 letter.

http://capoeirascience.com/content/development-urban-capoeira


"...This man [Carl Von Koseritz] was witness to the shocking act of arson upon a building erroneously taken to be the Ministry of Justice, great quantites of capoeiristas descended on the public square and began to shout, Viva a Revolucão!. In the process many grave injuries and much destruction of public property was incurred. In the same letter Von Koseritz confirms that spectacles such as these were not uncommon. Such behaviour was the mark of the capoeira maltas or gangs..."...with their lives and the lives of all who shared their race social rank and caste [ by the mid 1800s not all capoeiristas were African or Afro-Brazilian] at risk of being horribly exterminated with every splintered second, these men and women practiced capoeira and did so with such great success that [ again, I can't stress this enough] THE PEOPLE WHO HATE THEM RECORDED THEIR VICTORIES AGAINST THEM. And there were NUMEROUS capoeiristas who regularly trumped multiple armed police and military squads and units sent to kill them..

."...To mention but a few - in Recife there was Nascimento Grande, Rio had Manduca de Praia and Bahia can boast of producing probably the most famous capoeirista of all time - Besouro de Mangangá. These figures, particularly Besouro came to be folk heroes, their fame spread beyond the capoeira world. Capoeira came to signify a potent notion of resistance against the state, even for people who were not necessarily adepts themselves. Besouro was famous for openly beating the police and repeatedly defying capture, such was his personal legend that it is said he was only killed with the aid of an enchanted, wooden dagger. It is relevant that he was said to have carried the instructions for his own asassination to his killer, beleiving (as he was illiterate) that the document contained a recommendation for employment. .."...so yeah, Twin Fist. Capoeira was fearsome literally because you can bet your life on it and come out ahead more times than not. What you're saying is your own opinion mated with massive literal ignorance [ as in you have no actual factual data validating your conclusions so you literally don't KNOW what you're talking about, although you have the RIGHT to talk about it]



Twin Fist said:


> then again, there is also that clip of an actual fight breaking out during the rota, and what di those fearsome dancing warriors do? wrestled around like 4 year olds on a playground. Prob because they spent so much time learning how to dance they never bothered to learn how to throw a punch......



you would be right about that except...even KIDS know that wrestling is a part of capoeira...



   ...   

and a old guy with as much real world experience as you have would know that real fighting isn't always a pretty technical affair, right?...so if the guys were wrestling sloppily, that should fall within the range and parameters that you've already experienced and/or acknowledged from the well of your "real life wisdom and experience", right?...

Basically Twin Fist, you're demonstrating your self defense techs here:


TWIN FIST SELF DEFENSE DEMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSKR3O8B39c&feature=related

  and you believe that what you're doing is not only quality martial arts but the guy who's doing it is a sight more likely to beat the guys kicking striking and grappling in THIS video right here:

CAPOEIRA WORLD FIGHT

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMX9KKzG4-0&feature=related

and that's okay man. It's all good. We just hellafied disagree, and the gargantuan mass of empirical data on all the relevant points are on the side of the people who disagree with you. So let's all acknowledge some basic points:

Twin Fist will not ever entertain the idea that head kicks, cartwheel kicks, and the like are viable self defense tools. That's fine. Some of us may choose to engage some points of his disagreement not for the purpose of changing his mind--he's made it abundantly clear that such a thing will never happen--but merely to highlight significant practical functional pieces of information for those of us who DON'T share Twin Fist's opinion...even if we don't harmoniously agree amongst ourselves. And by that "some" of us...that pretty much means the other 99.99% who aren't John aka Twin Fist.

And that's part of the reasons why I provide both the historical and video evidence extant in my videos.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

and again with the historical ********. but this time with an added "see how awesome and badd *** I am"

what part of "that doesnt impress me or mean anything to me" dont you GET?

i dont care what history says. History says samurai were bad ***. they wouldnt last 30 seconds TODAY.

do you believe EVERYTHING you read? 

no, me either, and till i see it i will not take anyone's word for it

particuarly when it flies in the face of 30 years of training and experience.

it IS cool.
so is gymnastics
 I would try to claim either was PRACTICAL self defense.

deal with it.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 25, 2012)

I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.
For once, I can speak for a System I have gotten around to Researching, which was due to an interest in Capeoira I had about a Year ago. Never mind War - Theres one thing that I believe makes Capeoira Strong: It has multiple opponents in mind for everything. Thats all. Thats why I like it. I can praise a bunch of other things, but thats the single reason I like it. Hell, if You want to hear Me praise Capoeira, make a Video of some Leg Sweeps. Leg Sweeps out of nowere > Body/Head Strikes out of nowere, in that they cannot be blocked or checked, only evaded. I do not, however, approve of all Capoeira. Just some of it.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

by the way, every time you have to tell us how many asses you kick? how awesome you are?


it gets LESS believable.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 25, 2012)

You ever work security before, John? I have. Many others have. CLEAN HOUSE does NOT= WHOOP ***. You ever have to quell a riot or crowd gone zonkers at a large concert? You ever have to expel hundreds of people from a large "party gone wild" kind of environment? I have. Many others have. We actually whooped proportionately little *** for the most part. But we sure cleaned house.

See John every time that you tell us that you're amenable to logic opinions thoughts data and perspectives not your own...to use your words...well "it gets LESS believable."



Josh Oakley said:


> Twin Fist... I think we are done here. Seriously. You have no intention on changing your mind at all. Much love for you, old man, and there is a lot we can discuss... But this is just one where we are going to disagree on. Because our experiences are vastly different. And because you are not interested in a different viewpoint.
> 
> And, honestly... We already had this whole discussion before, and it is taking on a similar pace and tenor as the last one, and will go most likely the same exact place as last time: nowhere. Can we just agree to disagree on this one and go back to deriding socialism on the Study?
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk



Sounds like a plan. I will be putting up the kinds of video that we talked about earlier in this thread soonest...maybe round next week.




Cyriacus said:


> I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.
> For once, I can speak for a System I have gotten around to Researching, which was due to an interest in Capeoira I had about a Year ago. Never mind War - Theres one thing that I believe makes Capeoira Strong: It has multiple opponents in mind for everything. Thats all. Thats why I like it. I can praise a bunch of other things, but thats the single reason I like it. Hell, if You want to hear Me praise Capoeira, make a Video of some Leg Sweeps. Leg Sweeps out of nowere > Body/Head Strikes out of nowere, in that they cannot be blocked or checked, only evaded. I do not, however, approve of all Capoeira. Just some of it.



I don't even know all of capoeira. But I don't agree with all of anything so far...not even all of my own opinions. Lol. I'm still learning and stuff...


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## MJS (Jan 25, 2012)

My take....I've watched alot of Ras' clips, mostly the Kenpo ones.  I know he takes alot of **** for the way he does his Kenpo, but frankly, I think its good to have a critic in the Kenpo arts.  Back when I joined this forum, I was a huge critic of Kenpo.  I'm still a critic. LOL!  People say that I dont know the 'Real" Kenpo, that Ras doesnt know the "Real" Kenpo.  What is the "Real" Kenpo anyways? LOL!  

As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will.  Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me.  I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that.  Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it.  Will it work in a real fight?  I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight.  Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do.  I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol.  Could someone else?  Dont know, and honestly, dont care.  

For me, I want to:  do the simplest, most effective thing, that'll ensure me getting the hell out of dodge.  I don't want to do anything that will hinder my movement.  I dont know...maybe the reason I'm not overly fond of it, is the same reason I am not fond of high kicks and anything that involves jumping or spinning.  

But hey, if someone can make it work, more power to them.


----------



## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

there used to be a strip club on PCH down by by the canal right before the 710 called Angels. Late 80's. Plus the tropicana. Strip clubs here between 93 and 99. Off and on? around 10 years. Its how i made my fun money in the navy and after till i got tired of the crap. Military police while i was in.. 

but i never feel the need to tell people about my rumbles or toot my own horn. I grew out of that sort of thing 20 years ago.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 25, 2012)

this sums up my feelings quite well.



MJS said:


> As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will.  Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me.  I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that.  Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it.  Will it work in a real fight?  I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight.  Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do.  I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol.  Could someone else?  Dont know, and honestly, dont care.
> 
> For me, I want to:  do the simplest, most effective thing, that'll ensure me getting the hell out of dodge.  I don't want to do anything that will hinder my movement.  I dont know...maybe the reason I'm not overly fond of it, is the same reason I am not fond of high kicks and anything that involves jumping or spinning.
> 
> But hey, if someone can make it work, more power to them.


----------



## Josh Oakley (Jan 25, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> The problem with all of the above, Twin Fist, is that you're conflating your dislike of this techinque FOR YOU with:
> 
> 
> 1) It's effectiveness for others.
> ...



And we've come full circle. I'm out this thread. Shoot me a line when you post the individual vids we talked about and I'll jump in with pleasure.


----------



## ATACX GYM (Jan 26, 2012)

MJS said:


> My take....I've watched alot of Ras' clips, mostly the Kenpo ones.  I know he takes alot of **** for the way he does his Kenpo, but frankly, I think its good to have a critic in the Kenpo arts.  Back when I joined this forum, I was a huge critic of Kenpo.  I'm still a critic. LOL!  People say that I dont know the 'Real" Kenpo, that Ras doesnt know the "Real" Kenpo.  What is the "Real" Kenpo anyways? LOL!
> 
> As for these clips, the Capoeira ones...never done the art, probably never will.  Mainly because its something thats few and far between, where I live, and second, because its something that just doesnt interest me.  I like to follow the KISS concept, and IMO, this isn't following that.  Maybe it is, I dont know, but I'm not seeing it.  Will it work in a real fight?  I mean a real life and death, *** is on the line, screw up and you're not coming home, type of fight.  Don't know, but again, IMHO, its not something that *I* would personally do.  I wouldn't do it in a crowded bar, any more than I'd pull someone into guard, and go for a triangle...lol.  Could someone else?  Dont know, and honestly, dont care.
> 
> ...



Capoeira has a plethora of simple dirty techs too. Please don't get the impression that capoeira is comprised of mostly or entirely of acrobatics and movements requiring large amounts of space. Capoeira is equally renowned for in close "dirty" fighting. Remember, for nearly 50 years capoeira was infamous for being employed by Maltas in Brazil in ambushes assassinations and the like. Remember that Capoeira is absolutely soaked and drenched in malandragem and malicia--cunning, dirty tricks, cleverness, deception, misdirection, guile, street smarts, guerilla tactics, extreme intelligence and creativity, spiritual power energy equilibrium manipulation--from its very inception. Throat slashes, eye gouges, groin crushes, ankle breaks, biting, head butts, elbow knee and shin kicks highly reminiscent of close quarters bare knuckle Muay Thai, and much much more are very very typical of capoeira.

I know love and practice Shaolin gungfu. Doesn't mean I'll be Whipping The Dragon's Tail while I'm sitting on a bar stool...you might catch this here Tiger Claw in the throat. I love FMA...doesn't mean that I'll be throwing side kicks in a phone booth. You might catch this hear pananjakman ballistic beatdown close quarters style. Every martial art has long range and short range techs, and the competent martial artist matches the tech to the situation. In a bar? A capoeirista is likely to bash you over the head with a bottle, knife you while you're taking a dump in the john, or ambush you in the alleyway nearest to the drinking establishment. Capoeiristas are known to set up dates times and places for a life and death struggle with an enemy, wait for that enemy to leave his residence and go to the appointed place...and burn his house down. Then ambush him while he looks for another place to live. This is why I keep putting up the history of capoeira as a very important way to illuminate the mindset of the cunning capoeirista and the malandragem and malicia for which he AND she [ yes there are deadly and infamous women capoeiristas] are known admired and feared for. Many capoeiristas were far famed for being folk heroes too...like Robin Hood. Saviors of the oppressed, avengers of wrongdoing. They were Brazil's 300, Robin Hood and his Merry Men, Zorro, Batman, ninja, Merlin, Catwoman and Morgan le Fey [ for the women] rolled into a single badazz African flavored polyrhythmic joyful laughing soulful supremely quick witted keen minded being.



Josh Oakley said:


> And we've come full circle. I'm out this thread. Shoot me a line when you post the individual vids we talked about and I'll jump in with pleasure.





Okay man see you then. Pleasure having you in the thread and I look forward to your speedy  return when the vids are up.


----------



## ATACX GYM (Jan 26, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> there used to be a strip club on PCH down by by the canal right before the 710 called Angels. Late 80's. Plus the tropicana. Strip clubs here between 93 and 99. Off and on? around 10 years. Its how i made my fun money in the navy and after till i got tired of the crap. Military police while i was in..
> 
> but i never feel the need to tell people about my rumbles or toot my own horn. I grew out of that sort of thing 20 years ago.



when I worked for Citadel Security armed driving patrol near Henry Ford near one of the Los Angeles Harbor's smaller private ports? That's when Angels moved to the area I patrolled along with another joint. Dark long dirty dangerous streets they were, with packs of wild dogs roaming at night. This area in 1994 was kind of a No Man's Land, with the refinery taking up most of the avenue (nearly or slightly more than a half-mile).  Had several adventures in that area...


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.



I gotta step in for a moment and correct this statement:  capoeira is not and never was a dance.  It is understandable that many people (including many capoeiristas) believe it is or see it this way, but this is not true.

Capoeira does have a musical and rythmic aspect to it, but this is common among many aspects of African cultures.  The workday in the fields, the work around the house, etc. would often be accompanied by singing and music.  It was a way to make the labor less tedious and it brought the people together into a shared experience which strengthened the community bond.  The musical aspects of capoeira should be understood as coming from this same practice.  Just because it is musical and it has rhythm does not mean it is a dance.

Just wanted to clarify that issue.


----------



## Cyriacus (Jan 26, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> I gotta step in for a moment and correct this statement:  capoeira is not and never was a dance.  It is understandable that many people (including many capoeiristas) believe it is or see it this way, but this is not true.
> 
> Capoeira does have a musical and rythmic aspect to it, but this is common among many aspects of African cultures.  The workday in the fields, the work around the house, etc. would often be accompanied by singing and music.  It was a way to make the labor less tedious and it brought the people together into a shared experience which strengthened the community bond.  The musical aspects of capoeira should be understood as coming from this same practice.  Just because it is musical and it has rhythm does not mean it is a dance.
> 
> Just wanted to clarify that issue.


Well, technically, nor is Taekkyon. Albeit, I was generalising based on most of what You just mentioned.


----------



## MJS (Jan 26, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> Capoeira has a plethora of simple dirty techs too. Please don't get the impression that capoeira is comprised of mostly or entirely of acrobatics and movements requiring large amounts of space. Capoeira is equally renowned for in close "dirty" fighting. Remember, for nearly 50 years capoeira was infamous for being employed by Maltas in Brazil in ambushes assassinations and the like. Remember that Capoeira is absolutely soaked and drenched in malandragem and malicia--cunning, dirty tricks, cleverness, deception, misdirection, guile, street smarts, guerilla tactics, extreme intelligence and creativity, spiritual power energy equilibrium manipulation--from its very inception. Throat slashes, eye gouges, groin crushes, ankle breaks, biting, head butts, elbow knee and shin kicks highly reminiscent of close quarters bare knuckle Muay Thai, and much much more are very very typical of capoeira.
> 
> I know love and practice Shaolin gungfu. Doesn't mean I'll be Whipping The Dragon's Tail while I'm sitting on a bar stool...you might catch this here Tiger Claw in the throat. I love FMA...doesn't mean that I'll be throwing side kicks in a phone booth. You might catch this hear pananjakman ballistic beatdown close quarters style. Every martial art has long range and short range techs, and the competent martial artist matches the tech to the situation. In a bar? A capoeirista is likely to bash you over the head with a bottle, knife you while you're taking a dump in the john, or ambush you in the alleyway nearest to the drinking establishment. Capoeiristas are known to set up dates times and places for a life and death struggle with an enemy, wait for that enemy to leave his residence and go to the appointed place...and burn his house down. Then ambush him while he looks for another place to live. This is why I keep putting up the history of capoeira as a very important way to illuminate the mindset of the cunning capoeirista and the malandragem and malicia for which he AND she [ yes there are deadly and infamous women capoeiristas] are known admired and feared for. Many capoeiristas were far famed for being folk heroes too...like Robin Hood. Saviors of the oppressed, avengers of wrongdoing. They were Brazil's 300, Robin Hood and his Merry Men, Zorro, Batman, ninja, Merlin, Catwoman and Morgan le Fey [ for the women] rolled into a single badazz African flavored polyrhythmic joyful laughing soulful supremely quick witted keen minded being.



Interestingly enough, I popped over to youtube, typed in Capoeira, and saw just what I described.....gymnastic type moves, high kicks, lots of jumping, etc.  See, this is the problem Ras, and I'll use TKD as an example.  People tend to see alot of the same thing, and assume its all like that, thus why alot of people think TKD sucks.  I mean, when you're seeing the same stuff in vids., at dojos, etc, its kinda hard to imagine anything else.  

As for this....like I said, its just not my cup of tea.  I'm not gumby.  If something requires me to jump and kick high and all this fancy stuff, well, the odds of it working.......


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## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> Well, technically, nor is Taekkyon. Albeit, I was generalising based on most of what You just mentioned.



sure, I understand and I certainly don't hold it against ya.  The "dance-like" aspect of capoeira is often jumped on as a way to market classes at health clubs and whatnot, to get people into the classes.  It's less threatening to the cube jockeys than calling it what it is: martial arts.  So it gets presented as a great way to get in shape by doing this "combination of dance, music, martial arts and FUN!!!".  and that particular message has gotten out there.  That is becoming a dominant way of portraying the art, and in my opinion and experiences, it is not accurate and I'd even say it's a disservice to the art itself.  It's just a pet peeve of mine so I chime in and try to set the record straight when it comes up.


----------



## Flying Crane (Jan 26, 2012)

MJS said:


> Interestingly enough, I popped over to youtube, typed in Capoeira, and saw just what I described.....gymnastic type moves, high kicks, lots of jumping, etc.  See, this is the problem Ras, and I'll use TKD as an example.  People tend to see alot of the same thing, and assume its all like that, thus why alot of people think TKD sucks.  I mean, when you're seeing the same stuff in vids., at dojos, etc, its kinda hard to imagine anything else.
> 
> As for this....like I said, its just not my cup of tea.  I'm not gumby.  If something requires me to jump and kick high and all this fancy stuff, well, the odds of it working.......



It's true, what you see on places like Youtube tend to focus on the gymnastics and "WOW-FACTOR" stuff, what pleases the audience.  In my opinion, that is an unfortunate trend to make that a big focus and is not true to historical capoeira.  There is definitely an element of capoeira that is going the same route as Modern Wushu and performance XMA, in becoming something more like a performance version of the art, to the detriment of the fighting method.  I don't deny that existence and I feel it is very unfortunate and the art itself suffers for it.  But the existence of such an element, even when that is becoming the predominant vision of the art that most people see, does not negate the fact that the art still is an extremely viable combat method for those who understand it properly and who wish to train for that purpose.

Some months ago we had another thread on this topic, and it largely went down this same road of "yes it is" "no it isn't" childish nonsense.  In that thread I really attempted to put out some information to educate the readership about the true capoeira (to the best of my understanding and based on seven or so years of training in the art), including the differences between the GAME of capoeira which is what is seen in the roda, and using capoeira to actually fight.  They are not the same thing, tho of course there is some level of overlap, much the way sparring and real fighting have some overlap while not being the same thing.  I made some lengthy posts in an attempt to present information and perspective that few of the readership here has, so they could be educated.

That thread turned into a fiasco and was ultimately locked.  The discussion in this thread is largely going in that same direction.  Personally, I put some information out there simply to educate.  People can take it or leave it.  I have zero interest in convincing anyone who does not want to be convinced.  The opinions of the willfully and deliberately ignorant have no affect on reality, and their decisions to remain "unconvinced" in no way bothers me.  Just speaking for myself.  And Mike, I'm not aiming these comments at you.  Your post just sparked the keyboard diarrhea.


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## chinto (Jan 27, 2012)

of course you can use the techniques in a fight!  would I choose that system for self defense? no, but there are people out there that can and do make it work for them when its real, and nasty.


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## MJS (Jan 27, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> It's true, what you see on places like Youtube tend to focus on the gymnastics and "WOW-FACTOR" stuff, what pleases the audience. In my opinion, that is an unfortunate trend to make that a big focus and is not true to historical capoeira. There is definitely an element of capoeira that is going the same route as Modern Wushu and performance XMA, in becoming something more like a performance version of the art, to the detriment of the fighting method. I don't deny that existence and I feel it is very unfortunate and the art itself suffers for it. But the existence of such an element, even when that is becoming the predominant vision of the art that most people see, does not negate the fact that the art still is an extremely viable combat method for those who understand it properly and who wish to train for that purpose.
> 
> Some months ago we had another thread on this topic, and it largely went down this same road of "yes it is" "no it isn't" childish nonsense. In that thread I really attempted to put out some information to educate the readership about the true capoeira (to the best of my understanding and based on seven or so years of training in the art), including the differences between the GAME of capoeira which is what is seen in the roda, and using capoeira to actually fight. They are not the same thing, tho of course there is some level of overlap, much the way sparring and real fighting have some overlap while not being the same thing. I made some lengthy posts in an attempt to present information and perspective that few of the readership here has, so they could be educated.
> 
> That thread turned into a fiasco and was ultimately locked. The discussion in this thread is largely going in that same direction. Personally, I put some information out there simply to educate. People can take it or leave it. I have zero interest in convincing anyone who does not want to be convinced. The opinions of the willfully and deliberately ignorant have no affect on reality, and their decisions to remain "unconvinced" in no way bothers me. Just speaking for myself. And Mike, I'm not aiming these comments at you. Your post just sparked the keyboard diarrhea.



No problem Mike and thanks for the reply.   I'll have to take a peek at that other thread.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

let me summerize the other thread:

A:this works for real

B:uh.....no

A:yes it does, see? insert lots of rota

B:thats just dancing, it wont work

A:but...history blah blah silva blah blah

B:doesnt matter, that isnt self defense and you are claiming it works for self defense

A:it does

B:these clips of the rota dont

A:that isnt the real stuff, thats just the dance part

B:show us the real stuff

A:we cant, but trust me, it works

B:if it works show me

A:we cant, trust us 

B:no, show me

A:we cant, there isnt any of the REAL stuff on tape

B:if you cant show me then i wont believe it since it is illogical, impractical and dangerous to even try

A:you are just closed minded 


that sums it up, claims of effectiveness with nothing to back it up. Lots of excessive pointless verbiage about history and brazillian ninjas and ****.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

Flying Crane said:


> That thread turned into a fiasco and was ultimately locked.  The discussion in this thread is largely going in that same direction.  Personally, I put some information out there simply to educate.  People can take it or leave it.  I have zero interest in convincing anyone who does not want to be convinced.  The opinions of the willfully and deliberately ignorant have no affect on reality, and their decisions to remain "unconvinced" in no way bothers me.  Just speaking for myself.  And Mike, I'm not aiming these comments at you.  Your post just sparked the keyboard diarrhea.




we BEGGED you to show us the "real" capoiera, the "practical for self defense" stuff, all you showed us was the dancers.

It was less than convincing. 

Not our fault "pro capoiera" side couldnt prove or support thier position with anything other than "well...i say so"


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

What about this?





I have to say that sometimes unusual techniques work well, at training our lot were doing a drill that was basically a bit of fun, last man standing, what it says it is. My daughter, 6 stone and 5ft faced being taken down by a 6ft Guardsman, she went straight down into splits, his face was a picture, she took him down with her legs as in one of the movements on this video clip, she got a standing ovation.

I suspect people will watch above video and say 'well we do that so it's not Capoiera', tbh I don't know, what I know about Capoeira you can write on the back of a postage stamp. There's one move I liked alot in there and will make the guys wince lol!


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

an elbow to the face is an elbow to the face

doesnt really matter where you learned it.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

one word:
gymkata
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGUZxOCRcs&feature=related





Tez3 said:


> What about this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

We have a series of programmes here called 'Grumpy on men on....'  a whole load of old actors, celebrities etc have a whinge on different subjects... this one is football, I'll suggest martial arts as a subject to the BBC and I know exactly the chap to go on it.


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jan 27, 2012)

Thanks for sharing brother Ras. There is no doubt that I saw similarities between Capoeira and Indian Martial Arts and the Chinese Martial Arts.


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## Gemini (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> We have a series of programmes here called 'Grumpy on men on....'


Lol. I enjoyed that immensely! I think I became one somewhere 'cause they sound just like me! 

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back on topic...

It will work!'
No, it won't!
Yes, it will!
No, it won't!
Ye...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Lol. I enjoyed that immensely! I think I became one somewhere 'cause they sound just like me!
> 
> Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back on topic...
> 
> ...




actually, it's...

It works.

No it doesn't!

ok, have it your way. it doesnt.  :rofl:


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

Gemini said:


> Lol. I enjoyed that immensely! I think I became one somewhere 'cause they sound just like me!
> 
> Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. Back on topic...
> 
> ...



That's British pantomime where the character on stage says 'Oh no he isn't' and the audience shouts back 'oh yes he is' or vice versa, it goes on a few times then someone creeps up behind the character and the audience shouts 'look behind you'. The Principal Boy is a girl, the Dame is a man, the horse or cow is two people and you get to boo and hiss at the baddies and cheer for the goodies, great fun for everyone. 

Is there a reason a good Capoeira person couldn't make it work for SD? Are people perhaps just not wanting it to work because it's something out of our experience?


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Is there a reason a good Capoeira person couldn't make it work for SD? Are people perhaps just not wanting it to work because it's something out of our experience?



I dunno.  It boggles my mind.  I think there are people who insist on speaking from a position of ignorance, and I think a lot of it is driven by simple self-righteous spite.  Maybe there's mental illness involved, who can say?  That's about all I can come up with.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

not agreeing with you does not equal ignorance. Not thinking something is good does not equal not wanting it to be good.

it damned sure doesnt equal mental illness. You need to apologize for that, It was a petty remark.

any BB level martial artist with enough experience SHOULD be able to look at a given technique and evaluate it. And opinions will not always be the same. Particuarly when the case made for it is weak.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> *not agreeing with you does not equal ignorance.* Not thinking something is good does not equal not wanting it to be good.
> 
> it damned sure doesnt equal mental illness. You need to apologize for that, It was a petty remark.
> 
> any BB level martial artist with enough experience SHOULD be able to look at a given technique and evaluate it. And opinions will not always be the same. Particuarly when the case made for it is weak.



I asked a question, I don't think you can not agree with a question as it's not an opinion, all you can do with a question is answer it...or not.


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## Gemini (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> That's British pantomime where the character on stage says 'Oh no he isn't' and the audience shouts back 'oh yes he is' or vice versa, it goes on a few times then someone creeps up behind the character and the audience shouts 'look behind you'. The Principal Boy is a girl, the Dame is a man, the horse or cow is two people and you get to boo and hiss at the baddies and cheer for the goodies, great fun for everyone.


So THAT's where we got Rocky Horror Picture Show from!



Tez3 said:


> Is there a reason a good Capoeira person couldn't make it work for SD? Are people perhaps just not wanting it to work because it's something out of our experience?


Coming from a back ground of Taekwondo where people continue to be surprised because we do other things than high flying kicks, I can relate to their situation. People educated in any topic can pretty easily spot one that isn't. To support Flying Crane's position, why would you continue to engage them?

What I teach my own students is, the best strike is the one your opponent doesn't see coming or isn't ready for. Leading your opponent to think one thing and then deliver something else is hardly isolated to Taekwondo. I've seen too many strikes that shouldn't work that did, that I just can't take that position. One of the slowest forming kicks we practice is called a 360. It's basically a really cool looking kick that delivers a ton of power that you throw at a board or some other unsuspecting animate object. You'd have to be a total tool to get nailed by one, but it does happen. Why? Because the opponent was prepared for something else. If you have a strike that can be delivered in the guise of something else, it will work. It's not my style, but I wouldn't dismiss it to a competent practitioner of it.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

wasnt answering you Tez, i was speakign to Flying Crane 





Tez3 said:


> I asked a question, I don't think you can not agree with a question as it's not an opinion, all you can do with a question is answer it...or not.


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## Tez3 (Jan 27, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> wasnt answering you Tez, i was speakign to Flying Crane



I'm sure he doesn't have crystal balls anymore than I do so if you'd said, we'd have known.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> crystal balls



snicker snicker.  you wouldn't know what kinda balls I have, would you...


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## Flying Crane (Jan 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> We have a series of programmes here called 'Grumpy on men on....'  a whole load of old actors, celebrities etc have a whinge on different subjects... this one is football, I'll suggest martial arts as a subject to the BBC and I know exactly the chap to go on it.



"shouting the 'C' word as if the right to use it is about to be taken away"

funny stuff.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 27, 2012)

Okay look. Alot of people on this thread ALREADY USE CAPOEIRA TECHS YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT. Do you throw punches, kicks, knees, elbows? Do you grab people by their hair and sweep or slam them? Do you kick people in the nads as a viable self defense tech? Do you poke people in the eyes and smash throats, and/or consider that eye gouges and fish hooks are legit self defense techs?

http://youtu.be/so_HQRCFezU


Even people who--due to the rules and politics--have to use roda type capoeira to make contact are still doing exactly what many say can't be done and isn't done by capoeiristas: they attack with cartwheel kicks, they use takedowns and punches and leg kicks and body blows. Even though the rules require open hand palm strikes and slaps instead of bareknuckle punches...similar to how traditional bareknuckle karate bans punches to the face but nobody's stupid enough to presume that kyokushinkai fighters arent' hardcore fighters:

http://youtu.be/1-dUB-Y85eY

http://youtu.be/1-dUB-Y85eY

ANDERSON THE SPIDER SILVA CAPOEIRA

http://youtu.be/1-dUB-Y85eY

look how similar these moves are to Anderson's fights:

http://youtu.be/77eWTjQPt3I

http://youtu.be/vtaOxs-GyHo

http://youtu.be/5HDes1gkLZ0




Like I said, everyone on this site uses techs which are a part of capoeira. You may train them differently. You may not even know that you use them. But you do. Capoeira works and most of you onsite have spent a lifetime proving it by using techs which you share in common with capoeira. As for the ginga? YOU GUYS HAVE SEEN IT BEFORE...you just were so asleep at the wheel that you didn't realize the universality of its effectiveness and use in martial arts for millenia.

You never had any problem with dances before. You could separate the dance Ram Muay from the MARTIAL ART Muay Boran and its sportive grandson Muay Thai.

http://youtu.be/MH1kkYB8lT8


It's not accidental that these very movements are immortalized in medu neter near the 2nd cataract of the Nile in Africa centuries before Thailand existed. Think upon that. And I won't even bring the Nubians into the discussion...that's too much for yall right now. Lolol. And it would contribute to too much thread drift, which I don't want.

So stop hatin on the ginga and recognize the same respect that you give Muay Thai and other martial arts [ likely including the very martial art you study now] which has dance as an integral part is also the respect that is due to capoeira. Recognize that the ginga has an incredibly important rule visavis what Kenpoists call Position Recognition and visavis anybody with any sense at all understands about the supremacy of footwork...as long as you understand that the dance of the playful roda and celebrations are NOT the dance you're going to use when you fight and are NOT the way YOU TRAIN the dance FOR a fight. My Mestre Roque told me that HIS Mestre told him that Capoeira is: "...the Dance of Death..." and he is right.

I'm not saying that you should train in Capoeira if you don't want to. I am saying that you can fight with capoeira...you 100% for sure use techniques that are extant in capoeira and swear by their efficacy, whether those techs are high flying or low to the ground, flashy or street nasty, or anything in between. And I will show you more of the same in methods that you're not used to seeing if you come to this thread with an empty cup, an open sensible and critical mind...and a sense of  respect and adventure.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 27, 2012)

Cyriacus said:


> I like Capoeira for the same reason I like Taekkyon: Its a Dance, which shifts seamlessly into Striking.For once, I can speak for a System I have gotten around to Researching, which was due to an interest in Capeoira I had about a Year ago. Never mind War - Theres one thing that I believe makes Capeoira Strong: It has multiple opponents in mind for everything. Thats all. Thats why I like it. I can praise a bunch of other things, but thats the single reason I like it. Hell, if You want to hear Me praise Capoeira, make a Video of some Leg Sweeps. Leg Sweeps out of nowere > Body/Head Strikes out of nowere, in that they cannot be blocked or checked, only evaded. I do not, however, approve of all Capoeira. Just some of it.



I will put up such a collection of videos late next week. Full speed. Promise.

In the meantime? Enjoy some clips of Mestre Eberson who does all that you asked for...in the roda.







Look at Instrutor Haiti pull off all kindsa amazing stuff including a jaw dropping floor supported leg sweep at 0:51-0:52 and all kindsa stuff that should be humanly impossible but for him is basically "ho, hum, yawn" stuff.


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## seasoned (Jan 27, 2012)

Anybody can make anything work. It may not be everyones cup of tea, but that is besides the point. The statement was, *"Atacx gym capoeira: You can fight with it". *My answer, ya, some probably can, others like myself no. I been around a long time and have learned to stay very open minded, because I have put my foot into many a mouth in my day, including my own. Just my 2 cents.


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## Cyriacus (Jan 27, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> I will put up such a collection of videos late next week. Full speed. Promise.
> 
> In the meantime? Enjoy some clips of Mestre Eberson who does all that you asked for...in the roda.
> 
> ...


You known, even if they didnt use any of those methods, theyre learning some damn serious bravery.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 27, 2012)

seasoned said:


> Anybody can make anything work. It may not be everyones cup of tea, but that is besides the point. The statement was, *"Atacx gym capoeira: You can fight with it". *My answer, ya, some probably can, others like myself no. I been around a long time and have learned to stay very open minded, because I have put my foot into many a mouth in my day, including my own. Just my 2 cents.




I would say 3 things to the above:

1. Reasonable position

2. That same thing could be said about almost any art..."yeah some people can rock tai chi or taekwondo or muay thai but not me..."

3. I would hesitate to make a blanket statement like the above quoted statement [ even though it's reasonable] because the quote above assumes that one knows or has been exposed to the whole or majority or significant portions of an art. The whole premise of my thread is that the impressions that the overwhelming majority of people on this planet have about capoeira is erroneous.. A palm strike to the face work. A backfist work. A hand trapping tech work. A groin punch work. I'm willing to bet that you can make a groin punch-palm strike-knee to the body work. I showed all of these things in my ENTER WITH MALICIA video. Maybe you're not the kind to throw a head kick, but I bet that you can throw a leg kick...and that's in my video ENTER WITH MALICIA too. Maybe you're not as agile or flexible as I am, maybe you're just ideologically opposed to techs that require or emphasize moderately high to high levels of dexterity and agility. Okay cool. But that's different than saying that YOU CAN'T FIGHT WITH A WHOLE ART. Clearly there are significant portions of ANY valid martial art that you can fight with. At least 55% of capoeira's arsenal you can fight with because you already fight with it...the techs that are in your martial art almost 100% certainly in capoeira too. Maybe you guys don't train it the way that "roda oriented" capoeiristas do and that's fine because I don't train those techs that way either.

"IT'S NOT JUST WHAT YOU KNOW IT'S HOW YOU TRAIN"...a major saying in my Gym and a quote in my sig.

 If capoeira isn't for you? Then it isn't for you. But you CAN fight with it. Don't conflate the position "what little I know of capoeira makes me think that it isn't for me" with "I can't fight with it because what little I know of capoeira leads me to opine that it isn't for me" because that's not true. You CAN fight with it...and what little most of us know about capoeira accents our ignorance, and our miniscule knowledge base. So we're not qualified to make the comment that the whole art and the combative expression for capoeira isn't something that we can fight with...especially when we're looking at empirical evidence that the overwhelming majority of whatever striking based martial art that we practice is also in capoeira. With the only difference being that capoeiristas do those techniques from every whichaway, whereas most of us do those techs from only a few selected postures and positions.

This in no way denigrates other martial arts. My core art is Kenpo karate, and that's just the way it is folks. But my exposure to capoeira has revolutionized my perspective and approach to every other martial art I've studied...and my range of study is rather large. Functionalizing capoeira has made my combat skill knowledge and everything else related to martial arts--including fitness confidence position recognition and understanding of movement and technique--make a garagantuan quantum leap that is literally not possible for me without my exposure to and practice with capoeira's vocabulary of movement. The process of that discovery and its continuing process even as I type this post combined with what I have shared with quite a few other martial artists visavis capoeira regardless of where they are in their martial journey--master or student or in between--has simply reenforced the belief that they too can benefit enormously from capoeira.

Brazilian jiujitsu was much more stilted and robotic, much less fluid, until capoeiristas came to bjj and revolutionized its expression. It's fitting then, that a capoeira instructor who trained for years with the Gracies was also the first non-Gracie to defeat a Gracie with Gracie Jiujitsu. I refer to Waldemar Santana. This same capoeirista drew with Kimura...the same Kimura who also famously defeated Helio Gracie [whom Waldemar defeated]. Waldemar also faced Carlson Gracie numerous times, with the results being hotly disputed in 4 of the 6 alleged matches [ all parties agree that there were at least 2 draws in the 6 matches]. The only video evidence I've been able to obtain reflects the decision being a draw, although in at least one case it seemed clear to me that Waldemar did everything except finish Carlson and should have gotten the nod. To me, Waldemar vs Carlson is sorta kinda like boxings Juan Manuel Marquez vs Pacman...JMM in many people's eyes won 2 of the 3 fights but the record reflects otherwise.

Anywho, back to what capoeira can do for others when trained functionally...

...basically grasping the functional methods of capoeira will amp your offense and defense by allowing you to do things in places and positions that you never considered or were told that you couldn't do such and such in. The functional supremacy of capoeira's functional vocabulary of movement cannot be overemphasized because all techniques are movements but not all movements are techniques. You are virtually guaranteed to unpleasantly shock your opponent and pleasantly shock yourself by amplifying the cleverness, misdirection, unpredictability and thus difficulty of thwarting your entries exits and the delivery of your techs...and that folks is what it's about when you get right down to it. Who DOESN'T want to find ways to make your entry to say a cross or reverse punch or kick to the nads or leg trip better faster easier more fluid more powerful more difficult to counter more likely to succeed and much much harder for you to get hurt doing? Functional capoeira can virtually 100% guarantee you that. If you don't WANNA do that? Cool. But that's not the same as saying you CAN'T or IT DOESN'T WORK...cuz you can and it does work.

Waitaminnit. I should amend that like Flying Crane said...with an ATACX GYM twist



"yeah it works"

"No it doesn't!" 

"Yes it...okay then have it your way; it doesn't work"


[ nails you with a knee palm stike and takedown ATACX GYM CAPOEIRA style]

"thought you said that capoeira doesn't work?"

"it doesn't work! That wasn't capoeira! That knee was Muay Thai, that palm strike was kung fu, that scissor leg takedown was taekwondo! I know because I train those arts!"

"Those techs are in capoeira too"

"Nothing you can say will convince me that those tricks work"

"But I just hit you and took you down....wait. Okay yeah. Have it your way; it doesn't work...if you don't recognize when it does work and won't train the techs for your strengths and weaknesses so it works for your personal martial expression. Have a nice day, man."

[ nails you with a knee palm strike takedown and gingas away]


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 27, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> Okay look. Alot of people on this thread ALREADY USE CAPOEIRA TECHS YOU JUST DON'T KNOW IT. Do you throw punches, kicks, knees, elbows? Do you grab people by their hair and sweep or slam them? Do you kick people in the nads as a viable self defense tech? Do you poke people in the eyes and smash throats, and/or consider that eye gouges and fish hooks are legit self defense techs?
> 
> http://youtu.be/so_HQRCFezU
> 
> ...




Yall slept on this post...


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

style A has punches
boxing has punches
according to the original poster, a boxer making a punch work is proof that style A works

this doesnt make the slightest bit of sense.

the things that make capoeira not just a collection of techniques is the same thing that makes it........less than functional

the dance

and that is not a slam on capoeira alone the things that make TKD TKD are the things that are the LOW percentage shots, the jump spinning things (STOP, we know YOU can do them, but we are talking about mere mortals here) 

the thing that makes shotokan shotokan, the all powerful reverse punch, in reality doesnt drop people in one shot

the thing that makes monkey kung fu...well, you get my drift.

in general, the things that set each system apart, are the iconic stuff that isnt really all that practical.

instead of the rota where apparently the goal is to NOT hit each other, show them doing the dancy stuff where they hit something besides air.

People in every other style spar, if this is a real art, they should be able to spar with it. I have looked and looked, cant find any.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 27, 2012)

but, ok sure

some people might be able to make this work for self defense

the average person? prob not

me? not interested


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## Tez3 (Jan 28, 2012)

I'd like to think that as martial artists we aren't 'average' people.:ultracool


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 28, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> but, ok sure
> 
> some people might be able to make this work for self defense
> 
> ...



Well, that is actually progress from prior statements. I am proud!

Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk


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## Grenadier (Jan 28, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> one word:
> gymkata
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPGUZxOCRcs&feature=related



Well, the video DOES have a valid point at 01:59...  Run!


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## Black Belt Jedi (Jan 29, 2012)

I remember watching this video a few years ago of a Capoeira practitioner going against an MMA fighter.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQg24WFaVtw&list=PL682AD525802253C8&index=3&feature=plpp_video


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## Twin Fist (Jan 29, 2012)

And his wacky dancing accomplished nothing and an old fashioned guard into an arm bar ended the fight. This clip did show something. But not how awesome capoeira is


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 29, 2012)

It really just shows that that guy is a good fighter.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 29, 2012)

he was in great shape, fast, looked strong, and controlled the clinch till he could lock in the arm bar. great fight all the way around. just not a great example of caproeira


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## Tez3 (Jan 29, 2012)

I've seen plenty of not very good MMA fighters as well, sometimes it's not the style but the fighter.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 29, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> he was in great shape, fast, looked strong, and controlled the clinch till he could lock in the arm bar. great fight all the way around. just not a great example of caproeira



Meh. Capoeira has ground work and armbars as well. But you can get that elsewhere, obviously. Then again, you can get every single kick he pulled off in another style. As far as how he flowed, up top and on the ground, that part and that mentality was capoeira all the way.
/


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 29, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> And his wacky dancing accomplished nothing and an old fashioned guard into an arm bar ended the fight. This clip did show something. But not how awesome capoeira is



Except that his not so wacky dancing accomplished something that resulted in his domination of distancing and tactics--in combat sports that's called "ring generalship"--and that of course set the chain of events into motion that led to the armlock. Which old skool capoeira has had for centuries.



Twin Fist said:


> he was in great shape, fast, looked strong, and controlled the clinch till he could lock in the arm bar. great fight all the way around. just not a great example of caproeira



Except that the man himself who does the techniques said that he used capoeira. Between taking your word that it wasn't capoeira and the guy who did it presenting himself as using capoeira? I'm going with Marcus because he was the guy in the ring, he's the guy who did the training...he knows what he did and why and how.


And I really tried hard to let this pass:



Twin Fist said:


> and again with the historical ********. but this time with an added "see how awesome and badd *** I am"
> 
> what part of "that doesnt impress me or mean anything to me" dont you GET?
> 
> ...




...especially since John has been sooooo much more sensible and his posts far less inflammatory and bombastic. But I had to correct this simply as a matter of historical fact and record. You know, MODERN DAY history and record. These right here are just SOME of the MODERN DAY SAMURAI: 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JGSDF_22nd_Inf._official.jpg


and Isao Machii. Feel free to match your gun draw speed with his iaido and kenjutsu any day. Of course, he's considered virtually superhuman with the draw and strike...

http://www.history.com/shows/stan-lees-superhumans/videos/super-samurai#super-samurai


Oh yeah, this guy has also called himself a samurai...after being acknowledged as such by Japanese fans and martial artists...








Feel free to inform them how useless they are in the modern day...and I didn't even bring in Andy Hug, "The Blue Eyed Samurai"...


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## Twin Fist (Jan 30, 2012)

the wacky dance isnt the sole source of  "ring generalship" you can learn that anywhere. Just as Josh pointed out, lots of places can teach you a full guard and how to turn it into a arm bar.Nothing there that is a signature of the Lambada....

the clip in question is of a highly skilled fighter, no question, but nothing he did was in any way an endorsement of any given style, regardless of what he calls himself. I could call myself the last king of scotland, wouldnt mean anything or be in anyway true. 

if you really believe in this stuff, why do you care what anyone else thinks? you literally spend tens of thousands of words trying, in vain, to convince people you know what you claim to know, and tell all sorts of stories that make yourself sound quite superhuman. You dont need to, and frankly, it is a waste of time, cuz it isnt every convincing. Really tough guys dont have to say they are tough. 

Here is the thing

You are clearly a BB level martial artist. Possibly even Master level, i cant tell.

You really seem to believe the stuff you are doing. You put all this stuff out there, but get upset when people dont agree with you. Get over it. 

it doesnt matter what I or anyone else thinks. Allow people to agree, or not. Stop trying to browbeat people into agreeing with you. 

It will never work. And it reflects poorly on you.

now i predict you will ignore this reasonable advice, and post another 5000 words about how tough you are, how many asses you can kick, how much i suck, etc etc etc some more quote from irrelevant texts, etc maybe even some more threats and challenges, you have a habit of doing that too.

please prove me wrong.

please take some time and think. Thinks about this perfectly reasonable bit of advice:

if you are sure you are right, you can afford to let others decide for themselves.


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## MJS (Jan 30, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> Capoeira has a plethora of simple dirty techs too. Please don't get the impression that capoeira is comprised of mostly or entirely of acrobatics and movements requiring large amounts of space. Capoeira is equally renowned for in close "dirty" fighting. Remember, for nearly 50 years capoeira was infamous for being employed by Maltas in Brazil in ambushes assassinations and the like. Remember that Capoeira is absolutely soaked and drenched in malandragem and malicia--cunning, dirty tricks, cleverness, deception, misdirection, guile, street smarts, guerilla tactics, extreme intelligence and creativity, spiritual power energy equilibrium manipulation--from its very inception. Throat slashes, eye gouges, groin crushes, ankle breaks, biting, head butts, elbow knee and shin kicks highly reminiscent of close quarters bare knuckle Muay Thai, and much much more are very very typical of capoeira.
> 
> I know love and practice Shaolin gungfu. Doesn't mean I'll be Whipping The Dragon's Tail while I'm sitting on a bar stool...you might catch this here Tiger Claw in the throat. I love FMA...doesn't mean that I'll be throwing side kicks in a phone booth. You might catch this hear pananjakman ballistic beatdown close quarters style. Every martial art has long range and short range techs, and the competent martial artist matches the tech to the situation. In a bar? A capoeirista is likely to bash you over the head with a bottle, knife you while you're taking a dump in the john, or ambush you in the alleyway nearest to the drinking establishment. Capoeiristas are known to set up dates times and places for a life and death struggle with an enemy, wait for that enemy to leave his residence and go to the appointed place...and burn his house down. Then ambush him while he looks for another place to live. This is why I keep putting up the history of capoeira as a very important way to illuminate the mindset of the cunning capoeirista and the malandragem and malicia for which he AND she [ yes there are deadly and infamous women capoeiristas] are known admired and feared for. Many capoeiristas were far famed for being folk heroes too...like Robin Hood. Saviors of the oppressed, avengers of wrongdoing. They were Brazil's 300, Robin Hood and his Merry Men, Zorro, Batman, ninja, Merlin, Catwoman and Morgan le Fey [ for the women] rolled into a single badazz African flavored polyrhythmic joyful laughing soulful supremely quick witted keen minded being.
> 
> ...



As others have said, for some this may be the ideal art, while someone else, maybe not.  I glanced at the thread FC mentioned.  Its a long one, so I didn't read every post, but as he said, he posted some good info about the art.  When I have a bit more time, I'll read thru it more in-depth.   I guess for me, and I'll go back to my TKD ref. I made....but when all you see is A, its hard to convince people there's a B, C and D in the art as well.  This art is rare in my area, so all I have to go on is video, FWIW.


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## Josh Oakley (Jan 30, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> And I really tried hard to let this pass:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, no, no. I just cannot get behind you in this one. Because a gun is primarily a distance weapon. He can draw the sword as fast and impressively as he wants. I have a barret .50 and he is 1000 meters away. Or I have an M-4 and I am 25 meters away. Or I have a 9mm and he is 5 meters away. The samurai is going to die. 

And I am sure any one of the modern day samurai you referenced would say the same thing.

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## ATACX GYM (Jan 31, 2012)

Josh Oakley said:


> No, no, no. I just cannot get behind you in this one. Because a gun is primarily a distance weapon. He can draw the sword as fast and impressively as he wants. I have a barret .50 and he is 1000 meters away. Or I have an M-4 and I am 25 meters away. Or I have a 9mm and he is 5 meters away. The samurai is going to die.
> 
> And I am sure any one of the modern day samurai you referenced would say the same thing.
> 
> Sent from my ADR6350 using Tapatalk




Missing my point. Firstly? The ancient samurai were deadly with whatever weapon they chose to wield. They used guns for a short minute, and put it away because at the time it was literally too simple and too easy to kill without honor. Without superlative training, character building etc etc. The modern day samurai use firearms left and right as I have mentioned but that in no way eliminates the use of the proper tool for the proper situation. I wouldn't draw my katana and charge from 1000 meters away. I'd use my [ insert modern day rifle appropriate for that range] too. The difference is...that samurai have dedicated their entire lives since early childhood toward mastering the self and every nuance and aspect of combat...whereas the average or even above average conscript didn't start with comparatively mediocre training until their late teens...at the EARLIEST.

This type of dedication shines through with exemplary results, whatever the field of endeavor it's applied to. Martial arts. Academics. Combat sports. The battlefield. I wield katanas, but that doesn't make me a samurai. And if you have a M-4 and you're facing a samurai with samurai training in the M-4 and all equivalent instruments of war since literally early childhood? It's you...not the samurai...who's going to die. And likely your small squad of homies are gonna die with you unless the samurai shows mercy. If I'm with you? I'm dead too...and I've been training since childhood myself.

That's the point that I'm driving home.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> As others have said, for some this may be the ideal art, while someone else, maybe not.  I glanced at the thread FC mentioned.  Its a long one, so I didn't read every post, but as he said, he posted some good info about the art.  When I have a bit more time, I'll read thru it more in-depth.   I guess for me, and I'll go back to my TKD ref. I made....but when all you see is A, its hard to convince people there's a B, C and D in the art as well.  This art is rare in my area, so all I have to go on is video, FWIW.





In most cases I agree with you, MJS. But I would very much caution against conflating a whole art with the way that you perceive various practitioners practicing that art. Tai Chi, for example, isn't known for producing ,monster modern day combatants...despite its storied history of doing exactly that in China's past. I know a pretty decent number of Tai Chi techs and practice them, and I have every confidence that I can do and shall continue to whomp copious gluteus with them. I can say with dead certainty that anyone on this site who's confident with a palm strike, a push, a trip, arm drag, limb whips and manipulations, is also doing things that Tai Chi is far famed for. They just practice it differently, train it differently, express it differently...but a palm strike is a palm strike. And having a 5th dan in TKD? I can say without a doubt that I've cracked maaany a person with the kicks that I was trained to use and got very satisfactory results from it, thanks. Lol.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 31, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> the wacky dance isnt the sole source of  "ring generalship" you can learn that anywhere. Just as Josh pointed out, lots of places can teach you a full guard and how to turn it into a arm bar.Nothing there that is a signature of the Lambada....
> 
> the clip in question is of a highly skilled fighter, no question, but nothing he did was in any way an endorsement of any given style, regardless of what he calls himself. I could call myself the last king of scotland, wouldnt mean anything or be in anyway true.
> 
> ...




Okay...one more time for the people in the peanut gallery:

I'm not trying to change the minds of people who have made their minds up. I am merely offering my own and my students' own and several million other practitioners' own take on a much maligned martial art which my direct empirical experience shows that not only do most people have no idea what it  REALLY is, their ignorance prevents them from experimenting with or considering the vast vaaasst ways in which such practice or considerations can greatly help them in their martial journey whether or not they believe or champion or practice capoeira in any way similar to or with the verve and passion for the art that I do.

I'm not browbeating anyone. I'm not angry or perturbed in the least by dissenting or differing opinions. If you have any idea of my history, you would know that I am not in the least bit upset by dissent or disagreeing opinions. Your injunction to "get over it" is appreciated but wholly unneccessary. I never "got on it" so I never have to "get over it". I'm not tryng to charm cajole or convince. I view this thread with exactly the same perception that most of us on any martial site tend to view things on the site...education. Valuable info that can help others as it's helped us on our martial journey. Take or reject from it what you like.

However, what you've done for the entirety of the previous thread and about 90% of the current thread is to deny the accuracy of what I have presented. That area is something that can be denied or affirmed in objective reality using science...especially the science of history. I displayed truths clothed in centuries of titanium fact and testimony, as relayed to us by the slavers...people who hated the capoeiristas most and were far and away the most vested literally in human history in their expungement and dehumanization. I hoped but didn't believe that such a presentation would have any impact whatsoever on your perspective, but I know from the raft of emails and PMs that I receive that such presentations had significant impact upon the "silent majority" who peruse this thread but never get involved in any back and forth via posting in this thread. It is for THEM  and other open minded martial artists [ to a significant extent ] that I present the data that I do.

Hell, I go at it much more intensely than this thread can possibly show with actual capoeiristas...and we agree on all the extant pieces of info that I've shared with you so far. Our disagreements are in other areas.

You don't have to be a madd fan of boxing like me. If you're wholly unaware of street boxing but you have an open mind and look at what I present as something that might be beneficial and maybe with a twist here and a turn there you can add it to your own arsenal? That's very cool. If, for instance, I show links to the history of boxing and show clips of Ali and Willie Pep and prime Holyfield and prime Tyson and prime Hurricane and prime Pernell and prime Ricardo Lopez etc etc etc and all you get from that is..."boxing's not for me but I sure think I can use the ideas of keeping my hands up more often and adding head movement, twist it up and personalize it and help my own martial expression"...then that's a huge benefit and something akin to what I want to achieve with this thread.

Believe what you want, John. Sallgood man no static from me and no concern from me.

As for the clip in question? Marcus is well known in the capoeira community. Like I said, you and everyone else has the right to form their own opinion about whatever, but I'm taking the word of the man in the ring about what he does. If Ali says he's boxing, and everything he does conforms with my knowledge of boxing and the knowledge of boxing of other experts [ and in fact in many areas exceeds our collective knowledge] then I'm just not gonna put much stock in the opinion of a guy who says that Ali is really not boxing at all. I'll respect the right of the dissenter to dissent, but...he's clearly divorced from the overwhelming plethora of empirical evidence to the contrary. And he doesn't have to be aligned with it. Good luck to him...and I'm still staying with the most cogent logical empirical evidence as I see it that leads to the opinions that I've formed so far as I see it.

And honestly man...I put this thread up to discuss the topic of capoeira and directly challenge the gargantuan misunderstandings and deliberate untruths put out about it by those inimical to the art and those who are ignorant of the true art. Doing so necessarily requires jousting with those who've accepted those untruths and lies as facts. If such jousting isn't to your liking and whatnot? I understand. But you don't have to frequent the thread...just as I steer clear of your political threads for the most part.


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> In most cases I agree with you, MJS. But I would very much caution against conflating a whole art with the way that you perceive various practitioners practicing that art. Tai Chi, for example, isn't known for producing ,monster modern day combatants...despite its storied history of doing exactly that in China's past. I know a pretty decent number of Tai Chi techs and practice them, and I have every confidence that I can do and shall continue to whomp copious gluteus with them. I can say with dead certainty that anyone on this site who's confident with a palm strike, a push, a trip, arm drag, limb whips and manipulations, is also doing things that Tai Chi is far famed for. They just practice it differently, train it differently, express it differently...but a palm strike is a palm strike. And having a 5th dan in TKD? I can say without a doubt that I've cracked maaany a person with the kicks that I was trained to use and got very satisfactory results from it, thanks. Lol.



Again, my point was simply to show how easy it is for people to misunderstand an art.  If all you see is one thing, it will be hard for anyone to comprehend there is anything different.  Its just like the different cultures in the world.  If I were to up and move to Germany, I'd have to adapt to their culture, and no doubt, I'd think, "Gee, this is how they drive over here?"  When I've gone on vacations, many times, we were driving on the other side of the road.  When all you're used to seeing is how we drive in the States, its hard to imagine driving on the other side.  

Its true...go to youtube and watch TKD.  99% of the clips you'll see, will look similar, thus people will assume ALL TKD is like YT, when in reality it probably isnt.  But again, thats the way it seems.  Just like Kenpo and ground work.  How many Kenpo schools really do it?  Hell, you've said it yourself, with your clips.  

As for what kick, punch, etc, is found in other arts....take a look at that thread I started about pure arts.  Again, I've said it endless times, that we'll see the same kicks but application will differ.  I dont doubt that capoeira has the same things in TKD, Kenpo, Shotokan, etc.  Not disputing that.  I'm saying for ME, its not an art that *I* would do.  Just dont have the interest.  I'm no gymnast...lol...so doing what they do isnt for me.  I'd like to see a 400lb person jumping and moving like you see in TKD and Capoeira.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 31, 2012)

i was so hoping to be wrong.

oh well.


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## Twin Fist (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> I'm no gymnast...lol...so doing what they do isnt for me.  I'd like to see a 400lb person jumping and moving like you see in TKD and Capoeira.



i just want to see two of them actually ****ing SPAR where they hit something other than air.


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> i just want to see two of them actually ****ing SPAR where they hit something other than air.



Yup!   This is why I enjoy my Kyokushin classes so much.  Sad but true, I know, trust me, but I get a harder workout and more intense sparring, than I have ever got, in any Kenpo school that I've been to, to date.


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## Tez3 (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> Again, my point was simply to show how easy it is for people to misunderstand an art. If all you see is one thing, it will be hard for anyone to comprehend there is anything different. Its just like the different cultures in the world. If I were to up and move to Germany, I'd have to adapt to their culture, and no doubt, I'd think, "Gee, this is how they drive over here?" When I've gone on vacations, many times, we were driving on the other side of the road. When all you're used to seeing is how we drive in the States, its hard to imagine driving on the other side.
> 
> Its true...go to youtube and watch TKD. 99% of the clips you'll see, will look similar, thus people will assume ALL TKD is like YT, when in reality it probably isnt. But again, thats the way it seems. Just like Kenpo and ground work. How many Kenpo schools really do it? Hell, you've said it yourself, with your clips.
> 
> As for what kick, punch, etc, is found in other arts....take a look at that thread I started about pure arts. Again, I've said it endless times, that we'll see the same kicks but application will differ. I dont doubt that capoeira has the same things in TKD, Kenpo, Shotokan, etc. Not disputing that. I'm saying for ME, its not an art that *I* would do. Just dont have the interest. I'm no gymnast...lol...so doing what they do isnt for me. I'd like to see a 400lb person jumping and moving like you see in TKD and Capoeira.




You do know they drive on the same side of the road in Germany as you do lol? however on the autobahns there are no speed limits.......


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## Jenna (Jan 31, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> I put this thread up to discuss the topic of capoeira and directly challenge the gargantuan misunderstandings and deliberate untruths put out about it



Would it be ok if I ask why this is important to you?


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## Twin Fist (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> Yup!   This is why I enjoy my Kyokushin classes so much.  Sad but true, I know, trust me, but I get a harder workout and more intense sparring, than I have ever got, in any Kenpo school that I've been to, to date.


that prob always going to be true.

i hate to say it, but if kenpo has a flaw, it is that Ed Parker made it so scientific, that generations of BB spend thier time thinking instead of banging.

thats why i am into kaju now instead of going back to kenpo. Kaju they have enough kenpo to make it practical, but they HIT. Just an example, nearly every kaju technique has a groin shot in it. My Sigung will make you do it again if he doesnt hear the cup "pop" when you do the technique.

no pop? do it again.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 31, 2012)

Jenna said:


> Would it be ok if I ask why this is important to you?




Certainly you may ask, Jenna, and thank you very much for doing so.


I answered this question in large part already in one of my previous posts on this thread: "...I am merely offering my own and my students' own and several million other practitioners' own take on a [ undeservedly ] much maligned martial art which my direct empirical experience shows that not only do most people have no idea what it  REALLY is, their ignorance prevents them from experimenting with or considering the vast vaaasst ways in which such practice or considerations can greatly help them in their martial journey whether or not they believe or champion or practice capoeira in any way similar to or with the verve and passion for the art that I do...

...I'm not tryng to charm cajole or convince. I view this thread with exactly the same perception that most of us on any martial site tend to view things on the site...education [ oftentimes achieved by a mixture of shared facts, opinions, discussions, debates, and the hypothesis and conclusions reached therefrom and thereafter]... Valuable info that can help others as it's helped us on our martial journey. Take or reject from it what you like...

...You don't have to be a madd fan of boxing like me. If you're wholly unaware of street boxing but you have an open mind and look at what I present as something that might be beneficial and maybe with a twist here and a turn there you can add it to your own arsenal? That's very cool. If, for instance, I show links to the history of boxing and show clips of Ali and Willie Pep and prime Holyfield and prime Tyson and prime Hurricane and prime Pernell and prime Ricardo Lopez etc etc etc and all you get from that is..."boxing's not for me but I sure think I can use the ideas of keeping my hands up more often and adding head movement, twist it up and personalize it and help my own martial expression"...then that's a huge benefit and something akin to what I want to achieve with this thread..."

hope that helps. I can expound further if you like.


And I intend to put up more videos later this week mayhap early next. And the techs will be done at greater speed, I promise. Lol.


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## ATACX GYM (Jan 31, 2012)

MJS said:


> Yup!   This is why I enjoy my Kyokushin classes so much.  Sad but true, I know, trust me, but I get a harder workout and more intense sparring, than I have ever got, in any Kenpo school that I've been to, to date.




Sparring is mandatory in my classes. There is never ever ever a day that passes without sparring. The only reasons that I haven't shown sparring on these capoeira videos is that the guys object to it and the power of the capoeira techs combined with our lack of protective gear during the filming makes taking the risk of being hit while doing capoeira very very unwise. A single blow can does and will break bones, render people unconscious, launch you through the air, slam you hard to the ground with takedowns tackles throws, etc. Not kidding.

I have put up videos of me bareknuckle sparring, doing muay thai kickboxing, etc. but I have yet to work out the combo of protective gear and timing with my guys and mostly willingness to be filmed while we do our variant of capoeira.

Our capoeira is a blend of kyokushin, judo, greco, bjj, savate, kenpo, HKD, TKD, gungfu, kali, CQB, bareknuckle boxing and kickboxing old skool Muay Thai and Muay Boran style, Testa, etc etc. Truthfully? As we advance, we don't really make distinctions based upon "style" but instead we do specific drills that work on contextual skill sets. For instance, we have drills wherein you have to take a kenpo tech like say Heavenly Ascent and use it against all comers. The attackers may be armed, they may be grappling, you may start with your back to your opponent and already in a half RNC or half Nelson, there may be more than one attacker. Whatever. You still gotta do Heavenly Ascent. You might be told...pull off an S-Dobrado to au escape [like what happened yesterday] and you gotta deal with whatever is thrown at you from whatever situation I can think of. I require rolls to be done, etc etc. And you have "x" amount of reps to do in "x' minutes, such as: Pull off 3 S-Dobrado to au escapes and/or attacks in one [3,4,or 5 minute] round.Against any and all comers. Go."

You should get the idea now.


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> You do know they drive on the same side of the road in Germany as you do lol? however on the autobahns there are no speed limits.......



LOL!  Actually, no I didn't know that.  See, you learn something new everyday.


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## MJS (Jan 31, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> that prob always going to be true.
> 
> i hate to say it, but if kenpo has a flaw, it is that Ed Parker made it so scientific, that generations of BB spend thier time thinking instead of banging.
> 
> ...



LOL! Exactly!!


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## Twin Fist (Jan 31, 2012)

ATACX GYM said:


> The only reasons that I haven't shown sparring on these capoeira videos is that the guys object to it and the power of the capoeira techs combined with our lack of protective gear during the filming makes taking the risk of being hit while doing capoeira very very unwise. A single blow can does and will break bones, render people unconscious, launch you through the air, slam you hard to the ground with takedowns tackles throws, etc. Not kidding.




translation:

its too deadly to show you

man, i havnt heard that one since the 80's witht he ninja guys refusing to show themselves sparring

whatever.

someone cant spar without hurting people their control is **** and maybe they aint that good after all.

you cant show it? it isnt real

no one , i mean NO ONE is a friggin GOD of martial arts and can do that many styles and reach that level of skill in them all....

"Our capoeira is a blend of kyokushin, judo, greco, bjj, savate, kenpo, HKD, TKD, gungfu, kali, CQB, bareknuckle boxing and kickboxing old skool Muay Thai and Muay Boran style, Testa, etc etc"

translation:

"I dont actually know much of any one thing"

they claim to do 15 things? you can bet that they are doing 15 things half assed

i am now done.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 2, 2012)

Twin Fist said:


> translation:
> 
> its too deadly to show you
> 
> ...




The above is how you translate my post. I find it interesting and quite telling that you're the only one who thinks this way. We DO spar with our capoeira, we just wear protective gear. You know John...I could ask you to show us instructional vids of your variants of techs and ask you to show us video of you sparring, as I have already posted videos of me doing both and have done so for years. If I were to use your faulty logic? I could far more energetically accuse you of the very things that you falsely accuse me of...except that I have the video evidence FOR YEARS that disproves each and every one of your contentions, and you don't have literally a single second of video that makes you safe from your own barbs.

Something to think about, John.


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## Tez3 (Feb 2, 2012)

MJS said:


> LOL! Actually, no I didn't know that. See, you learn something new everyday.



In Europe the Brits are the only ones who drive on the left, everyone else is the same as you...though the Italians, the Maltese and the Cypriots prefer the middle of the road regardless of the direction they are driving, makes for interesting journeys.
I know it's off topic but at least it's something I know about lol! 

Posting up videos on here is always a brave thing to do but one would expect constructive criticism rather than derision. I don't see why Atacx's capoeira can't be a mixture of different styles, MMA is.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Posting up videos on here is always a brave thing to do but one would expect constructive criticism rather than derision. I don't see why Atacx's capoeira can't be a mixture of different styles, MMA is.



Not only is this well said? But it's an established fact that the original capoeira is a hybrid admixture of African martial arts and possibly has a dash of Native Brazilian arts in it too, depending upon which scholar you give credence too...


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## Josh Oakley (Feb 2, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> In Europe the Brits are the only ones who drive on the left, everyone else is the same as you...though the Italians, the Maltese and the Cypriots prefer the middle of the road regardless of the direction they are driving, makes for interesting journeys.
> I know it's off topic but at least it's something I know about lol!
> 
> Posting up videos on here is always a brave thing to do but one would expect constructive criticism rather than derision. I don't see why Atacx's capoeira can't be a mixture of different styles, MMA is.



What's interesting is that most of us practice an art that is a mixture, or is at least influenced by, other arts. Taekwondo, Ke(n/m)po, most chinese styles, have all had contributing arts. So to deride an art for being so is hypocritical and ignorant of history. Even Kyokushin is arguably influenced by Shaolin, Aiki-jujutsu, judo, Goju Ryu, shotokan, and as some have stipulated, Taekkyeon. Mas Oyama studied under a number of different instructors: Funakoshi, Miyagi, Kimura, Kotaro, etc. Arguably, the biggest influence on kyokushin was Oyama's periods where he trained himself.

So.. what's the problem?


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## Black Belt Jedi (Feb 3, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I've seen plenty of not very good MMA fighters as well, sometimes it's not the style but the fighter.



And that is very true. If those who believe in the "My style is better than your style" philosophy is ignorant, and this is my humble opinion. When I talk about Martial Arts I hardly use the word "style" because that creates divisional paradigms in the minds of Martial Artists. Different types of exercise drills and prearranged types of patterns can be classified as different styles, but style does not exist. I classify Martial Arts as sytems, schools, or disciplines because we are all human beings with two arms and two legs, if we have an individual with two heads, six arms and four legs, then we have a different style of fighting. These are the words that most of us forgotten of Bruce Lee. A punch is a punch and a kick is a kick no matter what school of Martial Arts you are training in. 

Always be open minded.

Hotep.


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## ATACX GYM (Feb 3, 2012)

Trying to squeeze in time to put up some more capoeira videos today...when my day is already jam-packed.


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## Calado (Mar 25, 2012)

I know nobody has been on this thread for a while, i have studied capoeira for many years now and have recently had the pleasure of training with Mestre Jogo de Dentro, Mestre Roxinho and Mestre Marcelo Caveirinha (eddy gordo) in Brazil. I agree with the guys saying "you can't fight with it"
However, capoeira is not just about flashy kicks and putting on a show, especially capoeira de angola, i have used the skills i have gained from capoeira in other martial arts, such as flexibility, agility, evasiveness, even malicia.
So, as for fighting purely using capoeira, no. Fighting using the skills gained only from capoeira, very effective.


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## Calado (Mar 25, 2012)

Who is/was your mestre by the way? you seem to have lost the traditional teachings of capoeira somewhere along the way. Here in new zealand we dont promote it with fighting and your "cartwheel groin punch" but for what capoeira is really about and mestre pastinha's teachings, we struggle sometimes yes, but every capoeirista in new zealand, and the mestres i have trained with in brasil all teach/learn how to use capoeira defensively and offensively, and trust me, it looks a lot more effective than a cartwheel groin punch.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 25, 2012)

Calado said:


> i have studied capoeira for many years now and have recently had the pleasure of training with Mestre Jogo de Dentro, Mestre Roxinho and Mestre Marcelo Caveirinha (eddy gordo) in Brazil. I agree with the guys saying "you can't fight with it"




man, Ras aint having a good month...lol


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## Calado (Mar 26, 2012)

just watched more of the videos, i swear they are a joke lol, sorry, but its true


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 27, 2012)

Very late on this thread.  I watched the vids and honestly, aside from the cartwheel and the handstand, I didn't see anything that was particularly out of the ordinary.

The only thing that I saw that I was critical of was in (I think) number five, where Coach Ras goes in low and puts his head at about abdomen level in relation to his partner.  I don't like putting the back of my head/neck into such easy reach and a savvy opponent could certainly take advantage of that.

I don't train in capoeira, so I have no comments as to how authentic it is.  

Criticism of the videos themselves:  In the first two videos, the sound quality was not all that good.  The rest were fine.  Also, I would like to have seen the techniques performed at speed (say three quarter) and without interruption after the instructional portion so that the viewer could get a sense of how it looks when actually performed.

Otherwise, it looked fine to me.  Kudos to the OP for putting them up.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 27, 2012)

Calado said:


> I know nobody has been on this thread for a while, i have studied capoeira for many years now and have recently had the pleasure of training with Mestre Jogo de Dentro, Mestre Roxinho and Mestre Marcelo Caveirinha (eddy gordo) in Brazil. I agree with the guys saying "you can't fight with it"
> However, capoeira is not just about flashy kicks and putting on a show, especially capoeira de angola, i have used the skills i have gained from capoeira in other martial arts, such as flexibility, agility, evasiveness, even malicia.
> So, as for fighting purely using capoeira, no. Fighting using the skills gained only from capoeira, very effective.



Hi Calado,

if I may ask, who is your teacher?  You've named a few names, but it's not clear to me if these people were your teachers, or simply people with whom you've had some (possibly) limited opportunity to train, without a deeper student/teacher relationship.

My own background is that I trained for about seven years or so, the bulk of that with Marcia Cigarra in San Francisco California, who is under Mestre Camisa in Rio.  I was a graduated student/blue cord in the ABADA school and was one of the senior students at that time, tho I've not trained capoeira for a number of years now as I ultimately drifted away from it in favor of the Chinese methods.

My observation is simply that the way most people train and practice capoeira is not conducive to fighting with it, tho many of those people erroneously believe that they can.  However, capoeira is most definitely a viable and effective means of fighting, IF one trains properly to use it as such.  Again, most people do not, so in most cases, no it is not a viable fighting method because the people doing it do not understand how to use it to fight.  But that doesn't mean the art itself cannot be used to fight with.  I've had opportunity to meet and train with numerous accomplished capoeiristas who would be terrifying to face off against, they can fight quite well with it.

I'm not in agreement with the approach that Ras is taking to illustrate how to fight with capoeira.  I do appreciate that he is attempting to make that point and is attempting to show how it can be done.  I just don't agree with him in how he is doing it.

When you say that you agree with those who say "you can't fight with it", it may be that YOU cannot fight with it, but don't discount what others CAN do with it.


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## Daniel Sullivan (Mar 27, 2012)

Calado said:


> just watched more of the videos, i swear they are a joke lol, sorry, but its true



Why don't you run some of your videos up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.


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