# Am I using a dolyo chagi chamber for a yeop chagi here? (VIDEO)=



## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

I do not belong to any school since 2 years back so I will have to refer to you guys. Am I conflating the chamber for the dolyo chagi, in my yeop chagi delivery here?

Note that this is with regards to the traditional side kick chamber, not the modern, front kick chamber one, used by the KKW and others.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=14&v=tpnNx0s3_2s&feature=emb_title

I consciously do it differently than for the Dolyo chagi, but  it might still be wrong.... I used to do every technique with different mechanics, so that's why I ask. I changed my body mechanics in the last year.


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## Acronym (Aug 1, 2020)

Looks like I can keep them apart. When I do them too casually they sometimes get muddled (common?) 

Maybe it's just rustiness. 

The Dolyo chagi mechanics is clearly distinct when I fully commit as seen here


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## Buka (Aug 1, 2020)

I think you need to pivot your base foot more, so your heel is pointing towards the target. I think that will align your hips and shoulders better and give the kick a little longer reach. What you're doing looks more like an Americanized version - which is fine, I do a similar version a lot - if you're doing it that way on purpose.

Keep up the work, brother!


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> I think you need to pivot your base foot more, so your heel is pointing towards the target. I think that will align your hips and shoulders better and give the kick a little longer reach. What you're doing looks more like an Americanized version - which is fine, I do a similar version a lot - if you're doing it that way on purpose.
> 
> Keep up the work, brother!



Thanks for the feedback. We don't pivot the base foot as much in ITF as the WTF Olympic Taekwondo guys, so it's intentional. But it kinda depends yeah


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

For the dolyo


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

The chair is blocking a clear view of your standing foot in the first video and I cannot view your second video. In your screen shot items 2 and 4 are talking about the standing foot I think and is saying to rotate from 45° to 90°, I think (I have never read this list).
Your posture in the first video is closer to a yeop chagi in the striking position, so I do not know if that answers your question. Flexibility plays a huge role with both the dollyo chagi and yeop chagi. Increased flexibility in the torso, hips, & legs makes either kick much easier and allows you to throw an effective kick from different geometries. 
As you discover and learn the kick more you should learn that the standing foot position does many different things depending on intent. 
All that being said, just forget all that and keep kicking and have fun brother.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The chair is blocking a clear view of your standing foot in the first video and I cannot view your second video. In your screen shot items 2 and 4 are talking about the standing foot I think and is saying to rotate from 45° to 90°, I think (I have never read this list).
> Your posture in the first video is closer to a yeop chagi in the striking position, so I do not know if that answers your question. Flexibility plays a huge role with both the dollyo chagi and yeop chagi. Increased flexibility in the torso, hips, & legs makes either kick much easier and allows you to throw an effective kick from different geometries.
> As you discover and learn the kick more you should learn that the standing foot position does many different things depending on intent.
> All that being said, just forget all that and keep kicking and have fun brother.



No, it says "point 45 degrees"


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

And it is from the ITF encyclopedia


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No, it says "point 45 degrees"


It says "the toes of the foot should turn 45° outward. Outward from what? What is the pivot point? The heel? The ball? 45° from each other? It is kind of vague. 
Back to your question, has it been answered? If not can you provide more detail?


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It says "the toes of the foot should turn 45° outward. Outward from what? ?



From a neutral front facing point of toes, obviously.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Looks like it is indeed 45 degrees rotation of the supporting foot, more or less


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> I  What you're doing looks more like an Americanized version -



What about this?


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Slightly more pivot here


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

So it depends..  Sometimes i rotate the classical 45 degrees with the foot, sometimes more. Never the 180 degree KKW variation.


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## Buka (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Slightly more pivot here


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> View attachment 23034



Haha alright. What did you mean by americanized? I've never heard the expression.


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## Buka (Aug 2, 2020)

My primary Art has always been American Karate, but I have belts in other arts, including TKD. In American Karate we throw all the different kicks in a lot of different ways. It's just the choice of the Art, and hence, the individual practitioner.



 

For instance, in our wedding pic, my wife is throwing a sidekick more like in TKD and I'm throwing one of the Americanized versions - difficult to see in the photo but I'm not using hip extension, I'm bent_ in_ at the waist with my upper body a little, more square to the front, especially the right shoulder. I'm also not blading my foot nor extending my heel. The particular side kick I'm throwing is meant to hit flat footed either between the hips or higher for a rushing opponent. It's an Americanized version, one of many.

Hey, she said "let's throw a sidekick for a photo." She never said what kind.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> My primary Art has always been American Karate, but I have belts in other arts, including TKD. In American Karate we throw all the different kicks in a lot of different ways. It's just the choice of the Art, and hence, the individual practitioner.
> 
> View attachment 23035
> 
> ...



I never knew that. Then I would say that I'm in the TKD spectrum.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> My primary Art has always been American Karate, but I have belts in other arts, including TKD. In American Karate we throw all the different kicks in a lot of different ways. It's just the choice of the Art, and hence, the individual practitioner.
> 
> View attachment 23035
> 
> For instance, in our wedding pic, my wife is throwing a sidekick more like in TKD and I'm throwing one of the Americanized versions - difficult to see in the photo but I'm not using hip extension, Id.



But don't you American Karate guys also do the side thrusting kick? Shotokan Karate does both the snapping and the hip extention one... The snapping is the one you describe.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> So it depends..  Sometimes i rotate the classical 45 degrees with the foot, sometimes more. Never the 180 degree KKW variation.


Pretty sure you have your degrees mixed up.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Pretty sure you have your degrees mixed up.





For WT/KKW TaeKwondo:

*2 Turn the leg which is on the ground for about 170-180 degrees. Make sure to turn your waist as well to create a rotational torque. Also, make sure that your kicking leg should be parallel to the ground.

Dollyo Chagi Of Taekwondo -The Most Popular Kick For Knockouts | One Of The 4 Basic Taekwondo Kicks*


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

I said 180 degrees for KKW


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> For WT/KKW TaeKwondo:
> 
> *2 Turn the leg which is on the ground for about 170-180 degrees. Make sure to turn your waist as well to create a rotational torque. Also, make sure that your kicking leg should be parallel to the ground.
> 
> Dollyo Chagi Of Taekwondo -The Most Popular Kick For Knockouts | One Of The 4 Basic Taekwondo Kicks*


I mean from the angle of your foot in the videos. A good bit past 45°. Makes the leg return much harder.

And that is a very generalized angle that is more correct for yeop chagi, not dollyo chagi.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

@Acronym,  see if this helps. You will see there is no hard reference to degree of rotation. There are tons of WT/Kukkiwon books that will give all sorts of different information. None of them are necessarily wrong, which can add to the confusion. 
http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/front/pageView.action?cmd=/eng/information/taekwondoSkill2


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I mean from the angle of your foot in the videos. A good bit past 45°. Makes the leg return much harder.i.



Yeah... I wrote that it's past 45 degrees, but it's not 180 degrees either. A lot of ITF guys go beyond 45 degrees, including in the encyclopedia, but not 170-180...


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> @Acronym,  see if this helps. You will see there is no hard reference to degree of rotation. There are tons of WT/Kukkiwon books that will give all sorts of different information. None of them are necessarily wrong, which can add to the confusion.
> http://www.kukkiwon.or.kr/front/pageView.action?cmd=/eng/information/taekwondoSkill2



I can assure you that modern KKW is 170-180 degrees. Older masters teaching older systems of KKW might very well do 45 degrees like ITF.  That I don't know.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Again, 170-180 degrees, straight from Korea, and it's not even very new..


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

And here's Susska, a world champion in ITF forms to wrap it up.


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## Buka (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But don't you American Karate guys also do the side thrusting kick? Shotokan Karate does both the snapping and the hip extention one... The snapping is the one you describe.



We do every type of side kick that I know of, at least the more athletic, flexible students do. We do that with every kick.

With the less athletically gifted, less flexible students, we still teach them all the kicks, keying on the mechanics and weaknesses that every single kick has.

Some people won’t realistically ever be able to throw jump spinning kicks. But they sure like learning how to rip someone out of the air when it’s being thrown at them. You eat a lot of kicks learning like that but it’s how to learn against resistance. And it’s a lot of fun.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Buka said:


> We do every type of side kick that I know of, at least the more athletic, flexible students do. We do that with every kick.
> 
> With the less athletically gifted, less flexible students, we still teach them all the kicks, keying on the mechanics and weaknesses that every single kick has.
> 
> Some people won’t realistically ever be able to throw jump spinning kicks. But they sure like learning how to rip someone out of the air when it’s being thrown at them. You eat a lot of kicks learning like that but it’s how to learn against resistance. And it’s a lot of fun.



Funnily enough, ageing might also change your style. I know a TKD instructor who kicks in his senior age  (60ish) more like Karate roundhouse kicks (crouched posture). He is still doing the splits and everything but maybe he's more careful these days. I know for a fact he threw them differently in the pictures from the 80s. Side kicks he does the same as before.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Back to this rotation business. I don't believe an instructor of either organization would fail you in a grading if you do a 180 degrees KKW pivot in an ITF grading or vice versa. They might point it out but I doubt they would fail you. 

And there's also this thing of "advanced practitioners move freely".. mantra.. so I'm agnostic as to whether it's fundamental or just a preference.

They don't check for every parameter in gradings.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


>


Should his target be 30 degree (or even 45 degree) to his left and not just straight in front of him? His target may be in front of him. But he will need that extra 30 degree to let his kicking power to go through.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I can assure you that modern KKW is 170-180 degrees. Older masters teaching older systems of KKW might very well do 45 degrees like ITF.  That I don't know.


Funny but both your videos below look "older". I know of no one teaching 180° for a roundhouse kick. It is not necessary and just makes no sense, doing more harm than good.
The KKW link I attached is as current as you will find. Like I said nowhere do they mention a specific angle but clearly show in the pictures and videos that dollyo chagi is Not 180°.
Now some people need more rotation to make certain kicks work. Not necessarily wrong while they are working on  increasing their stretch but I have seen it create some bad habits that were hard to break.
Try this; time several rear leg mid to high level roundhouse kicks with the standing foot at 45° or less and then time several with the standing foot fully rotated as you mention. See which kick is quicker from start to finish back to the starting position.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

@Jaeimseu

Still 170-180 degrees rotation for dolyo chagi in your class?


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The KKW link I attached is as current as you will find. Like I said nowhere do they mention a specific angle but clearly show in the pictures and videos that dollyo chagi is Not 180°.
> Now some people need more rotation to make certain kicks work. Not necessarily wrong while they are working on  increasing their stretch but I have seen it create some bad habits that were hard to break.
> .



Like I wrote before, the picture illustrations aren't always displaying the precise parameters. 

It's the same in the ITF encyclopedia where they overrotate the base foot in the dolyo chagi photos.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> It is not necessary and just makes no sense, doing more harm than good.
> .



Maybe it generates more power but I agree it seems overcooked. My lenses are ITF though.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Grandmaster in KKW.. 180 degrees again...


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> @Jaeimseu
> 
> Still 170-180 degrees rotation for dolyo chagi in your class?



For poomsae, yes. For sparring it depends on the footwork used. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> For poomsae, yes. For sparring it depends on the footwork used.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Thanks. Then I'll let you slug it out with @dvchorchan because I don't have a dog in this fight. He does not think there is any reason to rotate that much. You say?


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Grandmaster in KKW.. 180 degrees again...


Um, no. Again, not on the dollyo chagi, only on the yeop chagi shown in the video. There is a lot of variation  depending on the intent of the kick. 
Did you see how he got 'stuck' on his heel on one dollyo chagi? That is an inherent problem with over-rotation.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Um, no. Again, not on the dollyo chagi, only on the yeop chagi shown in the video. There is a lot of variation  depending on the intent of the kick.
> Did you see how he got 'stuck' on his heel on one dollyo chagi? That is an inherent problem with over-rotation.



Yes the dollyo chagi!

Kick example 1





Two



3


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Did you see how he got 'stuck' on his heel on one dollyo chagi? That is an inherent problem with over-rotation.



Yup. but you're still wrong that it's not in their basics.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

They also overrotate their side kicks in forms. Same hip mechanics during extention as ITF but overrotated torso by ITF standards.

I


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Thanks. Then I'll let you slug it out with @dvchorchan because I don't have a dog in this fight. He does not think there is any reason to rotate that much. You say?


I am not slugging it out with anyone. Only expressing my experience and specifically what your own videos show. 
I will not argue whether KKW teaches full rotation or not; I have already given you the KKW website link and it is indisputable. Our 9th Dan KKW (and other) certified Korean instructor teaches about a 45° rotation. 
https://www.mastershinonline.com/ 
I have much more experience in WT/Olympic sparring. I never competed in Poomsae at other than local tournaments. If a school teaches full rotation that is fine as long as they are teaching a full curriculum and the inherent upside/downside to over-rotation. 
We look at the mechanics on a person to person basis. If they make correct, accurate powerful kicks without needing to over-rotate all is good. Again, it depends on the intent.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> They also overrotate their side kicks in forms. Same hip mechanics during extention as ITF but overrotated torso by ITF standards.
> 
> I


Okay? That is a completely different kick. Very different hips, totally different extension. One is a linear kick one is a torsional kick.

Look, I am not arguing with you. I am trying to help you understand the differences.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am not slugging it out with anyone. Only expressing my experience and specifically what your own videos show.
> I will not argue whether KKW teaches full rotation or not; I have already given you the KKW website link and it is indisputable. Our 9th Dan KKW (and other) certified Korean instructor teaches about a 45° rotation.
> https://www.mastershinonline.com/
> I have much more experience in WT/Olympic sparring. I never competed in Poomsae at other than local tournaments. If a school teaches full rotation that is fine as long as they are teaching a full curriculum and the inherent upside/downside to over-rotation.
> We look at the mechanics on a person to person basis. If they make correct, accurate powerful kicks without needing to over-rotate all is good. Again, it depends on the intent.



Your link does not state the parameters according to yourself, only various pictures. My best guess is that your instructor is old school and passes on how he learned it back in the day.

This doesn't surprise me at all, which is also why I made the point of saying modern KKW.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay? That is a completely different kick. Very different hips, totally different extension. One is a linear kick one is a torsional kick.
> 
> .



I was referring to with regards to KKW vs ITF difference and that these extend beyond just the dolyo chagi and is also evident in the side kick mechanics.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Your link does not state the parameters according to yourself, only various pictures. My best guess is that your instructor is old school and passes on how he learned it back in the day.
> 
> This doesn't surprise me at all, which is also why I made the point of saying modern KKW.


What is your rub with 'old school'? Funny. 
Enlighten us with your new school experience. I am pretty sure I can hold my own  on the experience scale.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I was referring to with regards to KKW vs ITF difference and that these extend beyond just the dolyo chagi and is also evident in the side kick mechanics.


Okay. Do you understand the difference between a linear kick and a torsional kick?


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Okay. Do you understand the difference between a linear kick and a torsional kick?



Yes? There is overrotation going in both according to old school standards. That doesn't mean that they are the same kicks


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> What is your rub with 'old school'? Funny.
> Enlighten us with your new school experience. I am pretty sure I can hold my own  on the experience scale.



I did old school (ITF), which is why I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

@Acronym , 
did you know Kukkiwon has been around since 1972? I am guessing that is 'old school' for you.


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## dvcochran (Aug 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I did old school (ITF), which is why I don't have a dog in this fight.


But you are accusing me of old school technique? ITF was founded in 1955, Kukkiwon in 1972 (WT(F) came a year later). So you are surely 'older school' than I am.
C'mon man.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> We look at the mechanics on a person to person basis. If they make correct, accurate powerful kicks without needing to over-rotate all is good. Again, it depends on the intent.



Stiff hips aren't suddenly flexible by rotating 180 degrees.  If the hips don't get more flexible, the power won't add either by rotating more.


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## Acronym (Aug 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> But you are accusing me of old school technique? ITF was founded in 1955, Kukkiwon in 1972 (WT(F) came a year later). So you are surely 'older school' than I am.
> C'mon man.



A lot of masters transitioning to KKW came from ITF, founded in 1966, which was black listed in Korea in the 70s.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 5, 2020)

Acronym- Sir, you need to re examine your premise and the text at post #5 (see ittem 6 in the text copied and pasted) . The text shown is for the ITF / Chang Hon Dollyo Chagi which is for a target to the "Side Front"   as opposed to the "Side Turning Kick"  (Yop Dollyo Chagi)  which has the target to the front (Where a sparring opponent would normally be) so another 45 degrees  +/-  is needed although the text says stationary foot is 75 degrees outward - whatever that means.      As with many things - length of stances, angles etc. these are guidelines which my vary depending on the physical attributes of the practitioner.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 6, 2020)

Thank goodness your later videos were in normal time! It's super hard to tell from those "slow motion" videos what's going on (they aren't really slow motion, just normal speed with delays inserted between each - so kinda pseudo-slow-motion).

I would say you aren't chambering enough when doing a side kick. The turning of the standing foot is easy when you get the chamber right.

Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo doesn't have the chamber for a side kick going to the front, I've only seen one person actually do it that way - Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil. Granted he's a super high level grandmaster and world famous instructor, but pretty much every other Kukkiwon instructor chambers to the side of the body.


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## dvcochran (Aug 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> A lot of masters transitioning to KKW came from ITF, founded in 1966, which was black listed in Korea in the 70s.


You are correct on the year (I saw that I fat fingered earlier and typed 1955). I suppose you could say the ITF was black listed. Choi had a rather dubious history (criminal dealings) back in the Chung Do Kwan days and his Kwan (Oh Do Kwan) was not considered when the Kwan's were outlawed/disbanded and unified under the WT(F)/ Kukkiwon banner. Many of the Kwan's still exist in a historical form. 
There is a lot of chatter that the ITF may join with WT. They have been competing in the Olympic format for several years. 
Good thing or bad thing? I think bad if it means loosing techniques. Good as far as unification and solidifying the TKD style.


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## Acronym (Aug 7, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Thank goodness your later videos were in normal time! It's super hard to tell from those "slow motion" videos what's going on (they aren't really slow motion, just normal speed with delays inserted between each - so kinda pseudo-slow-motion).
> 
> I would say you aren't chambering enough when doing a side kick. .



Yeah but why should I? A tighter chamber is more time consuming and telegraphed, and it doesn't make my form any worse or better, just more or less pronounced.



andyjeffries said:


> Modern Kukkiwon Taekwondo doesn't have the chamber for a side kick going to the front, I've only seen one person actually do it that way - Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil. Granted he's a super high level grandmaster and world famous instructor, but pretty much every other Kukkiwon instructor chambers to the side of the body.



Not so... Grandmaster Woo teacher front chamber


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah but why should I? A tighter chamber is more time consuming and telegraphed, and it doesn't make my form any worse or better, just more or less pronounced.



It does so at the expense of power and often height. Those may not be important for what you're using for (maybe sparring), but they are normally how they're used in Kukkiwon Taekwondo.



Acronym said:


> Not so... Grandmaster Woo teacher front chamber



OK, so there are two things I'd like to discuss here.

When I said "Kukkiwon instructor" I didn't just mean "Instructors of Kukkiwon-style Taekwondo", but I meant official Kukkiwon Instructors - those that teach on the master instructor and poom/dan examiner courses. Considered by the Kukkiwon to be the best of the best.

Secondly, most instructors advocate when demonstrating/learning step-by-step putting the knee forward first. However, when doing it fast/full speed, they don't actually do that. For very good reason, you throw momentum forward to bring it back (when rotating to chamber) only to then try to throw it forward again. So conservation of momentum gives a good reason for not going forward-side-kick, only going side-kick. We've stopped teaching this way in our club because it is actually needless.

If you watch Grandmaster Woo's video, go to any of the full speed kicks (about 2:55 onwards) and pause the video. Then use the comma and full-stop/period buttons (same keys as < and >) to go frame-by-frame, you'll see it's performed differently to how it's done when performed step-by-step.

Almost all Taekwondo side kick videos are the same - when done step by step it's knee to the front, then rotate to the side and then kick. Then you watch the fast ones, go frame-by-frame and notice they don't actually go to the front, but rather rotate quickly and take their knee through and straight to the chamber position.

However, if you then watch Grandmaster Kang, Ik-Pil's video, you'll see that he actually does it the same way as he teaches - forward first. However, he doesn't advocate getting as tight a chamber as most other Kukkiwon instructors (and international masters). He prefers to go for pure linear momentum than the rotation to chamber and extension.

I've discussed this with many grandmasters and masters, and they 99% (GM Kang aside) say the same thing - forward, rotate, kick. Then I show them a video in slow motion of them doing it and get a "oh yeah, it doesn't actually go forward". I've had this conversation in English and Korean (I'm a lower-advanced in Korean), the same every time.

Here's another video that shows it step by step (going forward) then in slow motion during an actual kick and the knee never goes forward:






Hope this helps explain.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah but why should I? A tighter chamber is more time consuming and telegraphed, and it doesn't make my form any worse or better, just more or less pronounced.



Also, just an opinion here (albeit arguably a qualified one) - it definitely does make your form worse - the point it's almost unrecognisable as a side kick (and hence would score accordingly).

I'm a Kukkiwon-certified Poom/Dan Examiner and Kukkiwon-certified Master Instructor.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2020)

For completeness here's Grandmaster Kang's version of side kicks.


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## Acronym (Aug 10, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Also, just an opinion here (albeit arguably a qualified one) - it definitely does make your form worse - the point it's almost unrecognisable as a side kick (and hence would score accordingly).
> 
> .



Now you’re talking about form as in patterns. What I meant is that it doesn't make my form worse when it comes to fighting, since my balance and posture isn't dictacted by how high or tight the chamber is.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Now you’re talking about form as in patterns. What I meant is that it doesn't make my form worse when it comes to fighting, since my balance and posture isn't dictacted by how high or tight the chamber is.



No, no - I meant form as in appearance. You may mean it doesn't make your 'effectiveness' any worse and I'd still argue that you're doing a turning kick and are therefore missing out on many of the qualities that make a side kick different to a turn kick (e.g. natural defence against a stomach-side turning kick). But either way your form is affected by performing the chamber incorrectly.

Form vs function.


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## Acronym (Aug 10, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> No, no - I meant form as in appearance. You may mean it doesn't make your 'effectiveness' any worse and I'd still argue that you're doing a turning kick and are therefore missing out on many of the qualities that make a side kick different to a turn kick (e.g. natural defence against a stomach-side turning kick). But either way your form is affected by performing the chamber incorrectly.
> 
> Form vs function.



To my eyes, there is no overlap here with a turning kick. Will you point to what that would be?


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## andyjeffries (Aug 10, 2020)

Acronym said:


> To my eyes, there is no overlap here with a turning kick. Will you point to what that would be?



OK, so a lead leg side kick is much harder to critique the chamber, particularly when done to the side (from the camera's POV). A rear leg side kick towards the camera or if you're kicking right leg, towards the right edge of the video is better.

However, as you asked, I paused the video in YouTube, hit "," multiple times until at the beginning and the hit "." 32 times. That gets you to a point where the kick is extending to the target. It appears that your kicking foot is past the line formed from your hip to the target (i.e. out to your right hand side), that means the kick force is moving slightly to your left as you extend, whereas usually in a side kick it would go from the left to the right slightly.

Again though, not the best angle or kick style to ask for tip/critique on. A skipping side kick (I would call it that rather than a lead leg side kick, which would normally be just a lift and kick, without the back foot moving) is easier to perform than a regular side kick, because your body is already turned to the correct angle and the skipping of the back/standing legs makes it easier to pivot it.


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## Acronym (Aug 10, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> OK, so a lead leg side kick is much harder to critique the chamber, particularly when done to the side (from the camera's POV). A rear leg side kick towards the camera or if you're kicking right leg, towards the right edge of the video is better.
> 
> However, as you asked, I paused the video in YouTube, hit "," multiple times until at the beginning and the hit "." 32 times. That gets you to a point where the kick is extending to the target. It appears that your kicking foot is past the line formed from your hip to the target (i.e. out to your right hand side), that means the kick force is moving slightly to your left as you extend, whereas usually in a side kick it would go from the left to the right slightly.
> 
> Again though, not the best angle or kick style to ask for tip/critique on. A skipping side kick (I would call it that rather than a lead leg side kick, which would normally be just a lift and kick, without the back foot moving) is easier to perform than a regular side kick, because your body is already turned to the correct angle and the skipping of the back/standing legs makes it easier to pivot it.



I have an innate flaw that makes me bounce up and then forward when doing a skipping side kick. I've tried to get it streamlined but can't seem to do it. Could it be that my large frame isn't suited for Taekwondo style sparring? I could never get those smooth transitions and my partners pick up the tells and move out of my range before the leg is even half way up. 

I'm being totally serious here, I think big builds are a disadvantage in TKD. I'm curious if this is your experience as well?

 In boxing there are a number of ways you can fight but if you don’t have slickness and footwork in Taekwondo, you won't land anything!


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## andyjeffries (Aug 11, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have an innate flaw that makes me bounce up and then forward when doing a skipping side kick. I've tried to get it streamlined but can't seem to do it. Could it be that my large frame isn't suited for Taekwondo style sparring? I could never get those smooth transitions and my partners pick up the tells and move out of my range before the leg is even half way up.
> 
> I'm being totally serious here, I think big builds are a disadvantage in TKD. I'm curious if this is your experience as well?
> 
> In boxing there are a number of ways you can fight but if you don’t have slickness and footwork in Taekwondo, you won't land anything!



I would say that it's likely that you're just not play smart enough. You're playing a first level game, and you need to be on third level. I'd describe the three levels as:

1. Attacking - you can kick with single attacks and put combinations together
2. Countering - you can react quickly enough to an attack to score on your opponent with the right timing
3. Trapping - you can start attacks (or movements that simulate an attack) to get your opponent to counter, then react to their opponent.

So if you stand still or bounce on the spot, then suddenly go forward, your opponents will easily detect that and react with second level game. If you are constantly moving in and out slightly, dropping your weight harder and then softly again, twitching your hips as if you are about to kick - you make it much harder for them to react. So it's not above smooth transitions - it's about disguising your intent.

Then, you need to get in to reading your opponents - what do they "always" do and what do they "never" do.  Then you can "react" to situations faster because you can anticipate their behaviour better. Like reading of tells in poker. So it will seem like your kicks are faster or your reactions are quicker, but in fact you're just reacting to a tell, rather than the full movement.

Your body size is what it is, you can still compete well with others in your bracket, or have fun outside of your bracket.

Hope this helps.


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## Acronym (Aug 11, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I would say that it's likely that you're just not play smart enough. You're playing a first level game, and you need to be on third level. I'd describe the three levels as:
> 
> 1. Attacking - you can kick with single attacks and put combinations together
> 2. Countering - you can react quickly enough to an attack to score on your opponent with the right timing
> ...



I am constantly moving but as soon as I load up for the kick they spot it and move out of the way.


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## andyjeffries (Aug 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I am constantly moving but as soon as I load up for the kick they spot it and move out of the way.



Don't load up for the kick, focus on initiating the kick from movement, practice just that initial phase with a mirror/camera to see how seamless you can get it.


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## Earl Weiss (Aug 12, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I am constantly moving but as soon as I load up for the kick they spot it and move out of the way.



One way to practice avoiding this is to have a sparring stance where the rear foot has the heel off the floor and it points mostly forward. (Rear Knee slightly bent)  Think of pushing with that foot from the floor like a sprinter coming out of the starting blocks.   Think of it as if  there is a rope attached to your foot and someone yanks on it . Work this with a partner holding pads.  Tell them to let you know what if any motion they see happen before the kicking foot moves.   Then eliminate that motion.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> One way to practice avoiding this is to have a sparring stance where the rear foot has the heel off the floor and it points mostly forward. (Rear Knee slightly bent)  Think of pushing with that foot from the floor like a sprinter coming out of the starting blocks.   Think of it as if  there is a rope attached to your foot and someone yanks on it . Work this with a partner holding pads.  Tell them to let you know what if any motion they see happen before the kicking foot moves.   Then eliminate that motion.



Do lead lead hook kicks (ones you see Bill Wallace doing) score in ITF sparring even though we only have a spinning version of that kick in our formal system?

See here:


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> . A skipping side kick (I would call it that rather than a lead leg side kick, which would normally be just a lift and kick, without the back foot moving) is easier to perform than a regular side kick, because your body is already turned to the correct angle and the skipping of the back/standing legs makes it easier to pivot it.



It's easier but there are a lot of people who can't generate power out of skipping side kicks nonetheless. It's a timing kick more so than a roundhouse. Any roundhouse kick will be hard as long as you turn over. Not so with side kicks.


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> No, no - I meant form as in appearance. You may mean it doesn't make your 'effectiveness' any worse and I'd still argue that you're doing a turning kick and are therefore missing out on many of the qualities that make a side kick different to a turn kick (e.g. natural defence against a stomach-side turning kick). But either way your form is affected by performing the chamber incorrectly.
> 
> Form vs function.


Some day, I’d like to understand what the hell you people are talking about.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> Some day, I’d like to understand what the hell you people are talking about.



When one learns a new technique it's taught pronounced and exaggerated. This is to ingrain the principles of the motions. Then when applied in fighting there is no longer (neccesarily) full range of motion.

That's why I mean that many techniques you see in free sparring might have gotten low scoring in kata/forms judging because they weren't obvious enough from point A to B. But that's precisely the point in sparring to avoid telegraphing.

In self defense, you might revert back to full range of motion for extra power because your attacker doesn't spar you and has no idea what is coming and might never heard of a "roundhouse kick". or "side kick". So I can both dust him off and get good marks from a kata ref.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's easier but there are a lot of people who can't generate power out of skipping side kicks nonetheless. It's a timing kick more so than a roundhouse. Any roundhouse kick will be hard as long as you turn over. Not so with side kicks.


I cannot agree with that.  ANDY JEFFERIES quote was spot on. I would add that timing can/will play into any kick based on strategy, experience and skill. It has nothing do do with kick selection. "Hard" is fully dependent on the kicker and their own skill and ability. Yes, there are other factors outside this scope such as an opponent walking into a kick. Of course this is effective and a plus for the kicker but that does Not mean the kick itself was hard or powerful.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I cannot agree with that.  ANDY JEFFERIES quote was spot on. I would add that timing can/will play into any kick based on strategy, experience and skill. It has nothing do do with kick selection. "Hard" is fully dependent on the kicker and their own skill and ability. Yes, there are other factors outside this scope such as an opponent walking into a kick. Of course this is effective and a plus for the kicker but that does Not mean the kick itself was hard or powerful.



Everybody in my club with moderate experience hits hard roundhouse kicks to the mitts.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Everybody in my club with moderate experience hits hard roundhouse kicks to the mitts.


Sure. That is the intent of bag/mitt work using cadence.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Sure. That is the intent of bag/mitt work using cadence.



Everybody does not throw hard skipping side kicks to the mitts.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Everybody does not throw hard skipping side kicks to the mitts.



I find this to be true. However, I have found that it’s often due to chambering a side kick like a round kick and having the foot take a non-linear path to the target. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I find this to be true. However, I have found that it’s often due to chambering a side kick like a round kick and having the foot take a non-linear path to the target.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



It can only take one path if you do it with the lead leg, and those are the types of skipping side kicks I was referring to. Not everybody throws them hard either. I would say a majority do not but it's been a while and I did not take notes


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> However, I have found that it’s often due to chambering a side kick like a round kick and having the foot take a non-linear path to the target.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Why would the direction of the travel path affect power if the momentum and weight distribution is the same on impact?


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It can only take one path if you do it with the lead leg, and those are the types of skipping side kicks I was referring to. Not everybody throws them hard either. I would say a majority do not but it's been a while and I did not take notes



The path changes depending on the location of the foot relative to the target. If the striking surface of the foot is facing the target in the chambered position, it can move directly through the target. If the striking surface is moving across the target, much of the power is focused in the wrong direction.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> The path changes depending on the location of the foot relative to the target. If the striking surface of the foot is facing the target in the chambered position, it can move directly through the target. If the striking surface is moving across the target, much of the power is focused in the wrong direction.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



But you can do an inital chamber as a roundhouse and end up with a classical side kick chamber during point of impact. And if that inital chamber of a roundhouse had more momentum, It would logically lead to more power than a consistent side kick chamber with less momentum.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

That last post was in reference to the rear leg btw.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Back the to the lead leg - the reason it's harder to generate force with lead leg side kicks compared to a rear leg roundhouse kicks, is because you have to muscle it to some extent. Whereas a roundhouse kick gets most of its power from your hip and the torque.

So you need strong legs. You don't need strong legs for a roundhouse kick off the rear leg, believe it or not. The torque and pivot takes care of all of it.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But you can do an inital chamber as a roundhouse and end up with a classical side kick chamber during point of impact. And if that inital chamber of a roundhouse had more momentum, It would logically lead to more power than a consistent side kick chamber with less momentum.



In theory, this is possible, but my experience tells me that few people do this with consistency. Most of the time you can hear the sliding sound of the foot scraping across the mitt or target. 

Having said that, how much power is necessary depends on the context. If the power generated is sufficient for the job at hand, then it could be argued that the chamber position isn’t that important. However, I believe chambering round kick style isn’t as reliable for most people. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> In theory, this is possible, but my experience tells me that few people do this with consistency. Most of the time you can hear the sliding sound of the foot scraping across the mitt or target.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



The main reason people fail rear  leg side kicks  on mitts is not the chamber or point of impact, in my experience. It's more their torso mechanics and losing momentum in the pivot.

 In the rear leg side kick you are pivoting to lean backwards (a bit) and combining these concepts often make you lose the momentum and it ends up just a leg kick.

 In the roundhouse kick off the rear leg, you are creating momentum to lean to the side and it's easier to maintain because the force is still semi-forward, hence less risk of losing the momentum.

Rear leg side kicks can also be a ***** if you haven't thrown them off the proper distance, wheras Roundhouse kicks are less sensitive to how close you are standing because your foot is not pushing through, it's slamming in.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

When I do this skipping movement, I don't know exactly how much to lean for maximum power. It simply comes from experience and intuition, a fraction of a section before extention. 

People who struggle have more problems to deal with so simply adressing their leans won't solve much.


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

And to be honest, I don't want to waste time on Rear leg side kicks because they are almost never used in sparring. They take too to long to reach the target.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And to be honest, I don't want to waste time on Rear leg side kicks because they are almost never used in sparring. They take too to long to reach the target.



We can certainly agree on that. Most rear leg side kicks fail because they’re easy to spot and evade. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> We can certainly agree on that. Most rear leg side kicks fail because they’re easy to spot and evade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Yet basics in the dojang usually drill rear leg side kicks, not the lead one. It's good for a personal challenge to be great at them but not much else.


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yet basics in the dojang usually drill rear leg side kicks, not the lead one. It's good for a personal challenge to be great at them but not much else.



I think this may differ from dojang to dojang. We don’t drill them all that often at my school. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> I think this may differ from dojang to dojang. We don’t drill them all that often at my school.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



Side kicks in patterns are rear leg....


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## Jaeimseu (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Side kicks in patterns are rear leg....



True, but patterns/forms/poomsae isn’t the basis of our program. It’s a part, certainly, but we don’t spend the majority of training time on it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Acronym (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> True, but patterns/forms/poomsae isn’t the basis of our program. It’s a part, certainly, but we don’t spend the majority of training time on it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



So what is the basis - sparring?


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## Gerry Seymour (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> When one learns a new technique it's taught pronounced and exaggerated. This is to ingrain the principles of the motions. Then when applied in fighting there is no longer (neccesarily) full range of motion.
> 
> That's why I mean that many techniques you see in free sparring might have gotten low scoring in kata/forms judging because they weren't obvious enough from point A to B. But that's precisely the point in sparring to avoid telegraphing.
> 
> In self defense, you might revert back to full range of motion for extra power because your attacker doesn't spar you and has no idea what is coming and might never heard of a "roundhouse kick". or "side kick". So I can both dust him off and get good marks from a kata ref.


I was mostly talking about the discussion of turning vs. side kicks. My training includes a very small number of kicks, and a lot of what the "kickers" on here talk about is very over my head.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But you can do an inital chamber as a roundhouse and end up with a classical side kick chamber during point of impact. And if that inital chamber of a roundhouse had more momentum, It would logically lead to more power than a consistent side kick chamber with less momentum.


Then it would not be a side kick. The two kicks use different muscle groups and body posture/rotation.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> In theory, this is possible, but my experience tells me that few people do this with consistency. Most of the time you can hear the sliding sound of the foot scraping across the mitt or target.
> 
> Having said that, how much power is necessary depends on the context. If the power generated is sufficient for the job at hand, then it could be argued that the chamber position isn’t that important. However, I believe chambering round kick style isn’t as reliable for most people.
> 
> ...


And I would add, how many times do you really get to do a 'perfect' rear leg roundhouse kick when sparring? More often than not there is some degree of off balance. Something a person has to train to learn how to adjust for.


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## dvcochran (Aug 31, 2020)

Jaeimseu said:


> We can certainly agree on that. Most rear leg side kicks fail because they’re easy to spot and evade.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My personal favorite and most efficient use of a rear leg side kick is when I catch an opponent taking cross step when my shoulders are open to them. Easy pickings for a near side head shot. 
We also work a variant where you fake a spin and follow through with the rear leg if they slide back instead of step back. You have a lot of momentum working in your favor.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I was mostly talking about the discussion of turning vs. side kicks. My training includes a very small number of kicks, and a lot of what the "kickers" on here talk about is very over my head.



If you want anything explaining in more detail, let me know. I'm happy to use some YouTube clips and video analysis software to explain further.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yet basics in the dojang usually drill rear leg side kicks, not the lead one. It's good for a personal challenge to be great at them but not much else.



If talking about for sparring, most modern dojangs drill lead leg cut or stab kicks, which is like a sparring front leg side kick. But when training for sparring, instructors are often less worried about technical form, but speed (both in terms of impact speed and the total wall clock time of the kick).

However, when doing that you generally teach to lift the leg, then travel - rather than the more basic skipping motion (back leg first). The reason is in modern Taekwondo, the first one to get their leg above their opponents in a cut/stab kick race wins, so if you go back leg moves first you move towards your opponent body first - and the opponent can lift their front leg to cut your motion. If you go leg first, they have a leg to contend with (and there are options for that, clashing for one) but it makes it harder. Here's a video example of the motion I'm talking about (ignore the head kick counter to the re-movement, but just the initial lead leg cut kick)


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> If talking about for sparring, most modern dojangs drill lead leg cut or stab kicks, which is like a sparring front leg side kick. But when training for sparring, instructors are often less worried about technical form, but speed (both in terms of impact speed and the total wall clock time of the kick).
> 
> However, when doing that you generally teach to lift the leg, then travel - rather than the more basic skipping motion (back leg first). The reason is in modern Taekwondo, the first one to get their leg above their opponents in a cut/stab kick race wins, so if you go back leg moves first you move towards your opponent body first - and the opponent can lift their front leg to cut your motion. If you go leg first, they have a leg to contend with (and there are options for that, clashing for one) but it makes it harder. Here's a video example of the motion I'm talking about (ignore the head kick counter to the re-movement, but just the initial lead leg cut kick)



Basics in a class does not usually refer to sparring techniques unless it's a sport oriented school


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Then it would not be a side kick. The two kicks use different muscle groups and body posture/rotation.



It would be in the end motion


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> If you want anything explaining in more detail, let me know. I'm happy to use some YouTube clips and video analysis software to explain further.


I appreciate the offer. Honestly, it may be not worth the effort, given how thin my background in kicks is (none of my instructors put any emphasis on them - I was the best kicker at the school, excepting those who trained in other styles). I’m unlikely to gain much insight without some coaching. My “someday, maybe” list includes some private instruction in kicks from a TKD instructor.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

How do you rate this delivery 1-10?

Look at how he changes his mechanics when hitting the shield and suddenly makes a pushing kick. That's because the way he was doing it in the forms had no power and would just bounce off it.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How do you rate this delivery 1-10?
> 
> Look at how he changes his mechanics when hitting the shield and suddenly makes a pushing kick. That's because the way he was doing it in the forms had no power and would just bounce off it.



Ignoring his arms, I think his back leg side kick is really good, maybe 8/10. His arms throw me off because he's doing the ITF arms thing and it feels very formal and artificial to my Kukkiwon eyes.

His mechanics change when he hits the shield because he leans in to the kick. This is natural - when doing this kick, if you put bodyweight behind it you will naturally fall forwards more, which is not desirable during forms. However if you watch the acceleration when he kicks the shield, it's not a pushing motion but an accelerating kick. 

I would argue a pushing motion is a slower foot to target, then accelerate dramatically once contact is made (whereas a strike is an acceleration from the start until just after the target). That's how you'd describe the difference if you were thinking palm heel. I could accelerate all the way to hit with the palm heel and it would feel differently to if I just did an open hand push - and the difference comes in the part/speed of the motion BEFORE the striking part makes contact, not in the bodyweight used during the motion.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I would argue a pushing motion is a ll forwards more, which is not desirable during forms. However if you watch the acceleration when he kicks the shield, it's not a pushing motion but an accelerating kick.
> slower foot to target, then accelerate dramatically once contact is made (whereas a strike is an acceleration from the start until just after the target). That's how you'd describe the difference if you were thinking palm heel. I could accelerate all the way to hit with the palm heel and it would feel differently to if I just did an open hand push - and the difference comes in the part/speed of the motion BEFORE the striking part makes contact, not in the bodyweight used during the motion.



Fair enough but his lead leg side kicks are worse than his rear legs: starting at 2:40. And you said those are easier..

I give it a 6.5 overall. His lead leg legs I don't give more than 6.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Ignoring his arms, I think his back leg side kick is really good, maybe 8/10. His arms throw me off because he's doing the ITF arms thing and it feels very formal and artificial to my Kukkiwon eyes.
> 
> His mechanics change when he hits the shield because he leans in to the kick. This is natural - when doing this kick, if you put bodyweight behind it you will naturally fall forwards more, which is not desirable during forms. However if you watch the acceleration when he kicks the shield, it's not a pushing motion but an accelerating kick.
> 
> I would argue a pushing motion is a slower foot to target, then accelerate dramatically once contact is made (whereas a strike is an acceleration from the start until just after the target). That's how you'd describe the difference if you were thinking palm heel. I could accelerate all the way to hit with the palm heel and it would feel differently to if I just did an open hand push - and the difference comes in the part/speed of the motion BEFORE the striking part makes contact, not in the bodyweight used during the motion.



The distinction in punching is snapping/twisting the shoulder vs pushing your shoulder forward. So one would think there's a similar distinction for kicking.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And to be honest, I don't want to waste time on Rear leg side kicks because they are almost never used in sparring. They take too to long to reach the target.


The flaw in your reasoning is assuming you initiate with the rear leg.   The kick is very effective if set up as part of a combination often initiating the combination with the lead hand or leg.   Plenty of MMA and other videos out there where the opponent was knocked out with the rear leg side kick.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Side kicks in patterns are rear leg....


Not always , at least not in the Chang Hon System.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yet basics in the dojang usually drill rear leg side kicks, not the lead one. It's good for a personal challenge to be great at them but not much else.


Some MMA fighters (I.e. Cung Lee) have used the lead leg side kick quite effectively.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Some MMA fighters have used the lead leg side kick quite effectively.



There are plenty of things that work in MMA against non kickers that do not work against Taekwondo fighters. 



Earl Weiss said:


> Not always , at least not in the Chang Hon System.



Which pattern has a lead leg side kick?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There are plenty of things that work in MMA against non kickers that do not work against Taekwondo fighters.
> 
> 
> 
> Which pattern has a lead leg side kick?


Off the top of my head - All patterns that do the SPK from Bending Ready Stance A.   Won Hyo, Yul Guk, it is the lead leg in that stance. Kwang Gae has it follow the Side Pressing Kick,


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Off the top of my head - All patterns that do the SPK from Bending Ready Stance A.   Won Hyo, Yul Guk, it is the lead leg in that stance. Kwang Gae has it follow the Side Pressing Kick,



Bending ready stance is a static push off. Doing these in isolation will not make you anymore proficient at in motion lead leg side kicks since they are more dynamic


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

I'll be more precise: Patterns do not contain skipping lead leg side kicks.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

Hah! He doesn't use sine wave and he's still affiliated with the ITF.

How on earth was he allowed to get graded to 5th Dan by the organization?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Fair enough but his lead leg side kicks are worse than his rear legs: starting at 2:40. And you said those are easier..
> 
> I give it a 6.5 overall. His lead leg legs I don't give more than 6.


I find lead-leg side kicks harder to do. Power is harder for me to generate.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The distinction in punching is snapping/twisting the shoulder vs pushing your shoulder forward. So one would think there's a similar distinction for kicking.


I don’t follow that distinction. Can you rephrase it for me?


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It would be in the end motion


No, just a messed up kick for most people. Not quite a side kick, not quite a roundhouse. There is a Lot more going on than what you video and comments are saying. Keep practicing.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Fair enough but his lead leg side kicks are worse than his rear legs: starting at 2:40. And you said those are easier..
> 
> I give it a 6.5 overall. His lead leg legs I don't give more than 6.



Not at all. He was demonstrating the kicks to teach the motions and mechanics throughout the kick. Slow speed kicks are actually Harder to do because you lose the advantage of momentum and dynamic balance. Also, there is no resistance so quite a lot changes. It takes more core and leg strength to do very slow kicks. 
You must also take into account the counter-affects of impact. The ball drill for example. Each consecutive kick was slightly different for the previous because he had to dynamically adjust for position. A great sparring drill since it simulates a moving target for power kicks. 
I agree with what andyjefferies said about the arm. That is a formal ITF thing that is done per style. Not wrong, not right so no judgement there. I imagine if you saw that gentleman sparring you would Not see that arm motion.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Not at all. He was demonstrating the kicks to teach the motions and mechanics throughout the kick. Slow speed kicks are actually Harder to do because you lose the advantage of momentum and dynamic balance. Also, there is no resistance so quite a lot changes. It takes more core and leg strength to do very slow kicks.
> You must also take into account the counter-affects of impact. The ball drill for example. Each consecutive kick was slightly different for the previous because he had to dynamically adjust for position. A great sparring drill since it simulates a moving target for power kicks.
> I agree with what andyjefferies said about the arm. That is a formal ITF thing that is done per style. Not wrong, not right so no judgement there. I imagine if you saw that gentleman sparring you would Not see that arm motion.



The arm out thing is not obligatory in ITF. There are patterns where the side kick is thrusted without it.


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The arm out thing is not obligatory in ITF. There are patterns where the side kick is thrusted without it.


Yep. A the inverse is true as well.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I don’t follow that distinction. Can you rephrase it for me?



If you simply turn your shoulder and lean into a right hand punch, you're pushing the punch. If you however twist your shoulder at the same time as you lean, you're snapping the punch. The difference between the turn and twist of the shoulder is acceleration. So it's like a twitch in the shoulder turn


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## dvcochran (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you simply turn your shoulder and lean into a right hand punch, you're pushing the punch. If you however twist your shoulder at the same time as you lean, you're snapping the punch. The difference between the turn and twist of the shoulder is acceleration. So it's like a twitch in the shoulder turn


That might be the most cogent thing you have posted on this forum.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you simply turn your shoulder and lean into a right hand punch, you're pushing the punch. If you however twist your shoulder at the same time as you lean, you're snapping the punch. The difference between the turn and twist of the shoulder is acceleration. So it's like a twitch in the shoulder turn


Thanks. That made more sense to my brain.


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## Acronym (Sep 1, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I find lead-leg side kicks harder to do. Power is harder for me to generate.



Assuming your hips are open, delay the physical exertion of your leg action. In other words, don't explode as soon the foot moves because your momentum will have been spent before you've crashed though the shield. Increase speed in your leg about half a second before the foot makes contact. This way you are breaking through the shield and accelerating at the same time, and acceleration =power.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I'll be more precise: Patterns do not contain skipping lead leg side kicks.


Moon Moo Has   a skipping lead leg Side Pushing Kick .


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Hah! He doesn't use sine wave and he's still affiliated with the ITF.
> 
> How on earth was he allowed to get graded to 5th Dan by the organization?


He is using SW.  Not as pronounced as some and in fact there was a comparison of the CD / DVDs produced under General Choi's supervision. and some later videos where it was shown the later videos had performers doing a more exaggerated version.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Bending ready stance is a static push off. Doing these in isolation will not make you anymore proficient at in motion lead leg side kicks since they are more dynamic


I have no idea what concept you are trying to convey by this.   In any event you are still incorrect since there are lead leg Side Piercing, Thrusting and Pushing kicks in patterns from stances other than Bending ready stance A.   Sam Il #s 18 & 23, Yoo Sin # 56, performed a s the second part of a consecutive Kick In Choi Yong, Moon Moo #40,   53 as part of a consecutive kick, So San #10, Tong Il   #54.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There are plenty of things that work in MMA against non kickers that do not work against Taekwondo fighters.


Not sure I get your point. Are you saying stuff works in MMA that won't work in TKD because MMA Fighters are not as good at defending against kicks?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Assuming your hips are open, delay the physical exertion of your leg action. In other words, don't explode as soon the foot moves because your momentum will have been spent before you've crashed though the shield. Increase speed in your leg about half a second before the foot makes contact. This way you are breaking through the shield and accelerating at the same time, and acceleration =power.


That sounds like you're talking about a side kick with the supporting leg moving. I've never learned anything like that.


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## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not sure I get your point. Are you saying stuff works in MMA that won't work in TKD because MMA Fighters are not as good at defending against kicks?



Yes. They don't read kicks anywhere near as well.


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## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That sounds like you're talking about a side kick with the supporting leg moving. I've never learned anything like that.



That's the clip I quoted


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That sounds like you're talking about a side kick with the supporting leg moving. I've never learned anything like that.



It's a common enough thing in TKD. It might be a step or a skip to close the distance. Unless it's a jumping kick, the supporting leg will be planted by the time the kick contacts.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> It's a common enough thing in TKD. It might be a step or a skip to close the distance. Unless it's a jumping kick, the supporting leg will be planted by the time the kick contacts.


In NGA (the source of almost all my kicking knowledge), we only have one side kick - rear leg. I’ve been trying to develop the lead leg kick by using what I know from my other kicks, but so far it’s useful only if it never makes contact (they’ll find out it’s no threat, at all).


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> The arm out thing is not obligatory in ITF. There are patterns where the side kick is thrusted without it.


Yes and no.   The default is "Side Piercing kick is done with high punch unless instructed otherwise. " So, for patterns, if nothing else is designated i.e. "Pulling Hands in Opposite direction"   Forming Guarding Block"  etc. then Side Piercing kicks (Non Jumping) are accompanied by a high punch.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes. They don't read kicks anywhere near as well.


We will agree to disagree vis a vis how well professional fighters read kicks vs TKD fighters.


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## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

[


Earl Weiss said:


> Yes and no.   The default is "Side Piercing kick is done with high punch unless instructed otherwise. " So, for patterns, if nothing else is designated i.e. "Pulling Hands in Opposite direction"   Forming Guarding Block"  etc. then Side Piercing kicks (Non Jumping) are accompanied by a high punch.



There was somebody somewhere making the rationale that the reason you have the arm out is because the student is not yet proficient, wheras later on, the student can throw sidekicks and parry counters.


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## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> We will agree to disagree vis a vis how well professional fighters read kicks vs TKD fighters.



I have seen Chael Sonnen stand completely stationary when Machida moved his hips to hrow a mawashi geri, and did so. There was no disguise yet Chael just stood there. He did not see it coming at all.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have seen Chael Sonnen stand completely stationary when Machida moved his hips to hrow a mawashi geri, and did so. There was no disguise yet Chael just stood there. He did not see it coming at all.


I'd hesitate to draw a generalization from individuals.


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## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I'd hesitate to draw a generalization from individuals.



I don't base my opinion off Chael Sonnen only


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I don't base my opinion off Chael Sonnen only


What I'm suggesting is that if MMA fighters as a group were nearly blind to certain kicks, someone in MMA would find a great kicker and put them in the ring. That's kind of how the progression of MMA has gone.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> What I'm suggesting is that if MMA fighters as a group were nearly blind to certain kicks, someone in MMA would find a great kicker and put them in the ring. That's kind of how the progression of MMA has gone.



I didn't say they were blind, but worse.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That sounds like you're talking about a side kick with the supporting leg moving. I've never learned anything like that.


Your description is a kick commonly called a sliding kick. It is a powerful kick and does carry a lot of force and mass if done correctly. Not certain but I think what acronym is describing is like a flick. Putting the leg out there to create hand/arm movement then accelerating into an actual kick. The supporting leg does not necessarily move.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> In NGA (the source of almost all my kicking knowledge), we only have one side kick - rear leg. I’ve been trying to develop the lead leg kick by using what I know from my other kicks, but so far it’s useful only if it never makes contact (they’ll find out it’s no threat, at all).


FWIW, a lead leg side kick is a great defensive kick. Very good at keeping someone off and away from you. 
Hmmm, make good power and it is close to the 6' rule I suppose.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Yes and no.   The default is "Side Piercing kick is done with high punch unless instructed otherwise. " So, for patterns, if nothing else is designated i.e. "Pulling Hands in Opposite direction"   Forming Guarding Block"  etc. then Side Piercing kicks (Non Jumping) are accompanied by a high punch.


Mr. Earl Weiss, I understand the arm motion mostly from the Palgwe and Yudanja form sets. Usually in Kukkiwon/WT TKD there is a great emphasis on a high kick. This has always been a bit confusing to me when adding the arm motion (punch, backfist, hammer fist, etc...) since the kick is in the way of the punch or vise-versa. The ITF style where the kick is a mid-level strike paired with the hand strike make much more sense to me. 
We have modified the forms so that the hand strike is performed as the kicking foot goes back to the ground in stance. It is a congruent part of the kicking motion, post kick. Does that make sense?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The ITF style where the kick is a mid-level strike paired with the hand strike make much more sense to me.
> Does that make sense?


Sir, I will answer thusly.    "Making Sense" can be relative.   Now for details.   The basic Chang Hon response for why we use a high punch with the Side Piercing kick, is in case the kick is blocked or stuffed, you get them with the punch.   I thought that was a great concept until someone asked "Well then why not do it with all kicks?".  This got me to thinking that it may be more of a training tool . You have likely seen people do Side Kicks where they "roll their shoulder" so they are somewhat turning their back to the opponent  and looking over the shoulder.  This of course  presents vulnerability issues and limits the opportunity to follow up with the hands.   As a tool, punching with the kicking side hand tends to eliminate this issue.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> There was somebody somewhere making the rationale that the reason you have the arm out is because the student is not yet proficient, wheras later on, the student can throw sidekicks and parry counters.


See post #148. For my thoughts.   

There are plenty of Higher level patterns where the Side Piercing Kick is accompanied by the High Punch.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> FWIW, a lead leg side kick is a great defensive kick. Very good at keeping someone off and away from you.
> Hmmm, make good power and it is close to the 6' rule I suppose.


That "good power" part is my problem.  It works fine in light-touch sparring, because my opponent will never figure out that's almost all it's capable of. In anything heavier, I mostly use it to try to establish a pattern I don't intend to follow.


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## dvcochran (Sep 2, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> That "good power" part is my problem.  It works fine in light-touch sparring, because my opponent will never figure out that's almost all it's capable of. In anything heavier, I mostly use it to try to establish a pattern I don't intend to follow.


I am wondering where your center is when throwing say a mid level, lead leg kick. A big part of the power comes from shifting your center forward as the leg goes out. It will increase range a good 6"-10" also. 
I don't know how much video you watch but pay attention to what the hips do on someone with good, quick lead leg kicks. A lot of times they will shift forward and then back to center, depending on where they want the kicking leg to end up. It is something I don't have nearly as much flexibility with as I used to. Can be hell on the standing knee.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering where your center is when throwing say a mid level, lead leg kick. A big part of the power comes from shifting your center forward as the leg goes out. It will increase range a good 6"-10" also.
> I don't know how much video you watch but pay attention to what the hips do on someone with good, quick lead leg kicks. A lot of times they will shift forward and then back to center, depending on where they want the kicking leg to end up. It is something I don't have nearly as much flexibility with as I used to. Can be hell on the standing knee.


I suspect I simply don't have the fundamentals for that kick. I've borrowed what feels like the movement of a snap kick, and it feels less functional than that snap kick - probably because that power generation doesn't fit the kick. Mind you, the rear-leg side kick in NGA is pretty clunky, and that's the only side kick I have any real experience with. The front kick variations in NGA are much more functional, IMO.


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect I simply don't have the fundamentals for that kick. I've borrowed what feels like the movement of a snap kick, and it feels less functional than that snap kick - probably because that power generation doesn't fit the kick. Mind you, the rear-leg side kick in NGA is pretty clunky, and that's the only side kick I have any real experience with. The front kick variations in NGA are much more functional, IMO.



Unless you show us what it looks like it would be pure speculation on our part


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I suspect I simply don't have the fundamentals for that kick..


Maybe you can watch some Cung Lee Videos  and see what he does and try to emulate it.   In person I could teach the fundamentals.   Much more difficult to communicate by the written word.


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

Jong Soo Park is way better than Cung Le


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> I am wondering where your center is when throwing say a mid level, lead leg kick. A big part of the power comes from shifting your center forward as the leg goes out. It will increase range a good 6"-10" also.
> I don't know how much video you watch but pay attention to what the hips do on someone with good, quick lead leg kicks. A lot of times they will shift forward and then back to center, depending on where they want the kicking leg to end up. It is something I don't have nearly as much flexibility with as I used to. Can be hell on the standing knee.



How old are you?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Unless you show us what it looks like it would be pure speculation on our part


If I ever get back into a dojo, I'll try to grab a video of me kicking a bag. Assuming I can still do that kick, at all. All the driving I'm doing right now has really tightened my hips, so I may not have a side kick anymore.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Maybe you can watch some Cung Lee Videos  and see what he does and try to emulate it.   In person I could teach the fundamentals.   Much more difficult to communicate by the written word.


That in-person instruction is probably necessary in my case. Someday I'll be back around people doing martial arts.


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> If I ever get back into a dojo, I'll try to grab a video of me kicking a bag. Assuming I can still do that kick, at all. All the driving I'm doing right now has really tightened my hips, so I may not have a side kick anymore.



Aren't there youtube clips of other practitioners?


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How old are you?


57


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> 57



That's when you felt the flexibility decline started or was it earlier?


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Aren't there youtube clips of other practitioners?


Unlikely. Kicking is not stressed much, so anything you find of NGA online will be related to grappling, and usually related to the classical forms (2-man stylized forms used to introduce new techniques).


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's when you felt the flexibility decline started or was it earlier?


That is a complex question for me. I went through a major accident when I was 38 and had a very long recovery. At the time of the accident, I still competed at a high level and was near the peak flexibility of my teens and 20's. 
When I was able to start back any kind of workout and stretching the difference in flexibility was stark. After a couple of years it came back quite a lot but nothing near where I was at 38. So it is difficult to say when my flexibility would have naturally started dropping off had I not been injured.


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## Acronym (Sep 3, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is a complex question for me. I went through a major accident when I was 38 and had a very long recovery. At the time of the accident, I still competed at a high level and was near the peak flexibility of my teens and 20's.
> When I was able to start back any kind of workout and stretching the difference in flexibility was stark. After a couple of years it came back quite a lot but nothing near where I was at 38. So it is difficult to say when my flexibility would have naturally started dropping off had I not been injured.



Probably scar tissue.


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## dvcochran (Sep 3, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Probably scar tissue.


Yeah, I would take that.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Jong Soo Park is way better than Cung Le


Have you ever met GM Park Jong  Soo? , Been in the same room training with him while training?   This is like saying who was better - Tyson or Frazier.   Do to the era of their fights, their is a lot more stuff readily available on line for Cung Lee.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 4, 2020)

Nearing 50 I noticed the flexibility / range of motion in the hips dropping off.   Worked harder at stretching which resulted in more pain but no more flexibility.   X Rays revealed calcification and lack of cartilage in the hip joint.   Bone spurs were limiting the range of motion and stretching was only jamming bone into bone harder.   A couple of years later most bad parts were removed and thrown in the garbage. Range of motion greatly improved but not to the levels of 20 years earlier.


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## Acronym (Sep 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Have you ever met GM Park Jong  Soo? , Been in the same room training with him while training?   This is like saying who was better - Tyson or Frazier.   Do to the era of their fights, their is a lot more stuff readily available on line for Cung Lee.



No but I have eyes and Cung Le is nowhere near his leg dexterity.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Nearing 50 I noticed the flexibility / range of motion in the hips dropping off.   Worked harder at stretching which resulted in more pain but no more flexibility.   X Rays revealed calcification and lack of cartilage in the hip joint.   Bone spurs were limiting the range of motion and stretching was only jamming bone into bone harder.   A couple of years later most bad parts were removed and thrown in the garbage. Range of motion greatly improved but not to the levels of 20 years earlier.


I started to mention the same factors when I started back working out/stretching. It took me a while to get back to even walking (lost of metal and prosthetics) but eventually I could tell what was accident related pain and what was the classic symptoms of aging. It really forces you to choose what, how, and when you make certain motions. Over time I learned that on some days I can stretch about a far as ever but I really cannot use the flexibility fully because the pain is just not worth it.


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## Acronym (Sep 4, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Nearing 50 I noticed the flexibility / range of motion in the hips dropping off.   Worked harder at stretching which resulted in more pain but no more flexibility.   X Rays revealed calcification and lack of cartilage in the hip joint.   Bone spurs were limiting the range of motion and stretching was only jamming bone into bone harder.   A couple of years later most bad parts were removed and thrown in the garbage. Range of motion greatly improved but not to the levels of 20 years earlier.



Is that a common evolution?


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is that a common evolution?


Yep. Keep living and working out and you will get there.


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## Acronym (Sep 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yep. Keep living and working out and you will get there.



I didn't ask you.


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## Acronym (Sep 4, 2020)

I have 50+ years old doing the full splits in class.


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## dvcochran (Sep 4, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I have 50+ years old doing the full splits in class.


Like I said, on a good day I can still do close to a full split. I just cannot do anything with it. 
Kids in general are very flexible but very few of them have the strength and coordination to fully benefit from the flexibility until they have trained for a while. 
So, do a PPAT; an acronym for performance testing. 
Take two of your flexible 50 year old's and two 20 year old's, all of equal flexibility. Run all four through an extensive set of kicking drills and see who fair's better in every category.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 4, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Like I said, on a good day I can still do close to a full split. I just cannot do anything with it.
> Kids in general are very flexible but very few of them have the strength and coordination to fully benefit from the flexibility until they have trained for a while.
> So, do a PPAT; an acronym for performance testing.
> Take two of your flexible 50 year old's and two 20 year old's, all of equal flexibility. Run all four through an extensive set of kicking drills and see who fair's better in every category.



What do you mean that you can't do anything with it?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> No but I have eyes and Cung Le is nowhere near his leg dexterity.


I am acquainted with GM Park . I thought perhaps you trained with him and I was going to ask you to pass along my regards.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Is that a common evolution?



I can't make that  analysis. In my case I was born with a misalignment in my hips  which leads to later problems.   Impact activities like running on hard services and lots of heavy bag kicking didn't help. . If discovered at a young enough age now they apparently put the kids in braces to try and correct it.   Hip replacements  seem to be relatively common across a younger population. Whether that is due to being more active , congenital or other issues I cannot say.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I can't make that  analysis. In my case I was born with a misalignment in my hips  which leads to later problems.   Impact activities like running on hard services and lots of heavy bag kicking didn't help. . If discovered at a young enough age now they apparently put the kids in braces to try and correct it.   Hip replacements  seem to be relatively common across a younger population. Whether that is due to being more active , congenital or other issues I cannot say.



Do you have a photo pre surgery throwing a kick? I would like to see if it's possible to discern it


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 5, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Do you have a photo pre surgery throwing a kick? I would like to see if it's possible to discern it


I have a post surgery video.  Made it for the surgeon.  Only Some old VHS stuff pre surgery that would take me a while to copy for digital medium and upload. Not motivated to do that now.  Plus, I don't know that it would show a gradual decline in abilities over time.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 5, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> I have a post surgery video.  Made it for the surgeon.  Only Some old VHS stuff pre surgery that would take me a while to copy for digital medium and upload. Not motivated to do that now.  Plus, I don't know that it would show a gradual decline in abilities over time.



I noticed nearing 30 (I'm now 31) that one of the hips started to lock up, get stiffer under pressure, wheras the other one remained unaffected. Is it common for one of the hips to be stronger than the other or what explains? I have not had any injuries.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I noticed nearing 30 (I'm now 31) that one of the hips started to lock up, get stiffer under pressure, wheras the other one remained unaffected. Is it common for one of the hips to be stronger than the other or what explains? I have not had any injuries.


The answer to your issue may be revealed by X Rays.   I cannot speak to what is  "Common" .    As far as one side being weaker there are potential solutions.  Train the weaker side with 10% more (Don't overtrain it)  reps for 3 months and see what happens.  (Again, this may be fruitless or worse if you have a physical issue)   A doctor's analysis with Physical therapy my be in order.


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## dvcochran (Sep 6, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What do you mean that you can't do anything with it?


My strength and dexterity are not what they used to be. So I cannot use my flexibility as well. There are some things that just are not worth the pain it would cause. Can I do them? Yes but not well.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 7, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> My strength and dexterity are not what they used to be. /QUOTE]
> 
> Any man who says he is a good at 40   (50, 60 etc.)   as he was at 20 - wasn't very good at 20.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 7, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> The answer to your issue may be revealed by X Rays.   I cannot speak to what is  "Common" .    As far as one side being weaker there are potential solutions.  Train the weaker side with 10% more (Don't overtrain it)  reps for 3 months and see what happens.  (Again, this may be fruitless or worse if you have a physical issue)   A doctor's analysis with Physical therapy my be in order.



I'm ambidextrious in my legs so that's how I remember that there never was any medial condition historically. It's something I've noticed in later years only.


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## Acronym (Sep 7, 2020)

I guess ambipedal or two-footed is more precise because it only concern my legs.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I find lead-leg side kicks harder to do. Power is harder for me to generate.


I don't, but, not having watched the video, all my lead leg side kicks are low. Basically if I'm throwing it from the front leg, I'm aiming at their kick, to prevent it from connecting. 

That's probably not something they focus too much on in tkd, but I'm aware that my kicks are worse than a tkders (generally), so it's better if I take kicks out of the equation by punishing them for trying to throw one.

Given what you've said on here about your own sparring style it might be something you'd like to work on too.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't, but, not having watched the video, all my lead leg side kicks are low. Basically if I'm throwing it from the front leg, I'm aiming at their kick, to prevent it from connecting.
> 
> That's probably not something they focus too much on in tkd, but I'm aware that my kicks are worse than a tkders (generally), so it's better if I take kicks out of the equation by punishing them for trying to throw one.
> 
> Given what you've said on here about your own sparring style it might be something you'd like to work on too.



I haven't been to the all open tournaments but what the non TKDoins generally do is bridge the gap, clinch, throw, finishing technique to the ground, and win by superior inside game.


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I haven't been to the all open tournaments but what the non TKDoins generally do is bridge the gap, clinch, throw, finishing technique to the ground, and win by superior inside game.


What sort of open tournaments are you referring to? From my understanding most TKD tournaments don't allow that.

Personally my style is a direct counter to what you've described. I (and my main teachers) bridge the gap, enter, throw hook/smashes, and then slip out of the throw to escape while they're trying to get a grip. Then when they attempt to come in again, I throw a cross-counter or hook counter, then back up and try to stay in punching range. Basically all our groundwork is from training with bjj purple belts and up, trying to escape rather than staying on the ground with them. That's not part of the plan, but if I mess up and end up on the ground I need to know what to do. And once I escape, I can go back to my game-plan.

I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my comment about low kicks/prevention kicks, but from my experience my style seems to counter perfectly what you're describing.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What sort of open tournaments are you referring to? From my understanding most TKD tournaments don't allow that.
> 
> Personally my style is a direct counter to what you've described. I (and my main teachers) bridge the gap, enter, throw hook/smashes, and then slip out of the throw to escape while they're trying to get a grip. Then when they attempt to come in again, I throw a cross-counter or hook counter, then back up and try to stay in punching range. Basically all our groundwork is from training with bjj purple belts and up, trying to escape rather than staying on the ground with them. That's not part of the plan, but if I mess up and end up on the ground I need to know what to do. And once I escape, I can go back to my game-plan.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my comment about low kicks/prevention kicks, but from my experience my style seems to counter perfectly what you're describing.



You speculated that it's better to take your kicks out of the equation. Meaning you speculated how to beat them.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

I was referring to open style tournaments


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You speculated that it's better to take your kicks out of the equation. Meaning you speculated how to beat them.


Yeah. I mentioned my way to handle kicks. I was giving gerry a suggestion on how to do so since he's also mentioned kicks aren't his strong point. 

I'm not really sure what points you're making with your responses to my posts.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I'm not really sure what points you're making with your responses to my posts.



I just told you


----------



## Monkey Turned Wolf (Sep 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I just told you


Yeah but what you said was completely irrelevant as far as I can tell. Which probably means I'm not getting your point.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> That's probably not something they focus too much on in tkd, but I'm aware that my kicks are worse than a tkders (generally), so it's better if I take kicks out of the equation by punishing them for trying to throw one.
> 
> .



To which I replied what people *facing* TKD normally do in open style competion, which is clinch.

I don't believe your version of a side kick will pose any problems at all for a TKD stylist. I would need see to see the application but it sounds very abstract and theoretical and something you probably haven’t tried


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## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> What sort of open tournaments are you referring to? From my understanding most TKD tournaments don't allow that.
> 
> Personally my style is a direct counter to what you've described. I (and my main teachers) bridge the gap, enter, throw hook/smashes, and then slip out of the throw to escape while they're trying to get a grip. Then when they attempt to come in again, I throw a cross-counter or hook counter, then back up and try to stay in punching range. Basically all our groundwork is from training with bjj purple belts and up, trying to escape rather than staying on the ground with them. That's not part of the plan, but if I mess up and end up on the ground I need to know what to do. And once I escape, I can go back to my game-plan.
> 
> I'm not really sure what your post has to do with my comment about low kicks/prevention kicks, but from my experience my style seems to counter perfectly what you're describing.


Yes, even the non WT TKD tourneys do not go to the ground. More like bridge, clinch (slightly) and work back out. 
I have been to every style tourney you can think of. WT style works very well when combined with good hands but very few people see it that way and fewer can combine the two. Go to an open tournament and you can surprise the hell out of people if you can kick the face from punching range and recover so that they cannot easily counter.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Yes, even the non WT TKD tourneys do not go to the ground. More like bridge, clinch (slightly) and work back out.
> I have been to every style tourney you can think of. WT style works very well when combined with good hands but very few people see it that way and fewer can combine the two. Go to an open tournament and you can surprise the hell out of people if you can kick the face from punching range and recover so that they cannot easily counter.



A Karate sponsored open style event may allow sweeps


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## dvcochran (Sep 8, 2020)

Acronym said:


> A Karate sponsored open style event may allow sweeps


No, not all. Maybe the One you watched on Youtube.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> No, not all. Maybe the One you watched on Youtube.



Well it used to anyway. WKF tournaments have sweeps. No I was not referring to that clip.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

If sweeps and clinch are not allowed, the pure Taekwondo stylist has generally speaking a huge advantage over a pure Karate stylist due to the range advantage of feet vs hands. Neither one knows the sweet science of boxing. Karateka can generally  kick well but not as well and not as fluid as the Taekwondo expert,.

Ask any Karate practitioner and he will tell you the same. Those kicks are not what they are used to facing.


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## Acronym (Sep 8, 2020)

Here's one in Karate rule set. 

A 4th Dan (or higher) ITF black belt vs Karate (probably Shotokan).

Taekwondo guy won.


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## Acronym (Sep 9, 2020)

Notice how the Karateka can't get off with his kicks at all.

Oh and that Taekwondo guy had a great lead side kick


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 10, 2020)

Monkey Turned Wolf said:


> I don't, but, not having watched the video, all my lead leg side kicks are low. Basically if I'm throwing it from the front leg, I'm aiming at their kick, to prevent it from connecting.
> 
> That's probably not something they focus too much on in tkd, but I'm aware that my kicks are worse than a tkders (generally), so it's better if I take kicks out of the equation by punishing them for trying to throw one.
> 
> Given what you've said on here about your own sparring style it might be something you'd like to work on too.


Probably. Seems like something I need to be around good training partners for, and probably need some competent coaching/instruction.


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## Acronym (Sep 14, 2020)

How about this one @andyjeffries

Isn't this a push?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 14, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How about this one @andyjeffries
> 
> Isn't this a push?
> 
> [


Not directed to me,  First I would repeat what  General Choi says in his texts. went something like this when it addressed 3 main types of attacks, (Pierce, Thrust, Strike) although there are more than those 3 such as push,  "The lines of distinction are not always clear"   (Note- quote is from memory and may not be exact. )   Now to the video. IMO most of the kicks show thatthe bag "Folds" at the point of impact.   This would *not* be characteristic of a "Push"   in the Chang Hon System.  where "Pushing" techniques are used to "Off Balance" (I would also add "Displace") the Attacker.


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## Acronym (Sep 14, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Not directed to me,  First I would repeat what  General Choi says in his texts. went something like this when it addressed 3 main types of attacks, (Pierce, Thrust, Strike) although there are more than those 3 such as push,  "The lines of distinction are not always clear"   (Note- quote is from memory and may not be exact. )   Now to the video. IMO most of the kicks show thatthe bag "Folds" at the point of impact.   This would *not* be characteristic of a "Push"   in the Chang Hon System.  where "Pushing" techniques are used to "Off Balance" (I would also add "Displace") the Attacker.



His acceleration point is very late, almost right before penetration. He looks to be is in danger town of a push, rather than a thrust, every blow.


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## Acronym (Sep 14, 2020)

Here are dolyo chagis with no acceleration (same speed beginning to end). It cannot generate significant power


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> His acceleration point is very late, almost right before penetration. He looks to be is in danger town of a push, rather than a thrust, every blow.


Please define how you use the terms "Push" and "Thrust".


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Here are dolyo chagis with no acceleration (same speed beginning to end). It cannot generate significant power



Please explain "Significant"   as far as what purpose is to be accomplished.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> How about this one @andyjeffries
> 
> Isn't this a push?



I wouldn't describe it as so, because for me his foot accelerates to the target, rather than be put on the target then accelerate. You later say that the acceleration point is very late, that may be because of the gentleman's age that you view it that way. Taekwondo is a lifetime pursuit and you can't judge all students to the standard of a 20-something. 

However, that said, it's an ITF kick and I'm viewing it with Kukkiwon eyes.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Here are dolyo chagis with no acceleration (same speed beginning to end). It cannot generate significant power



I don't know how you came to that conclusion. I watched it in real time and it seemed to be accelerating.

If you pause the video in YouTube and hit "." you can go forward frame-by-frame. It takes 10 frames for the kick to reach inline with his standing leg (considering that half way) and 6 frames to go from there to impact. Therefore, it's accelerating.

Again, I think you may be judging him with both inexperienced eyes and based on viewing younger athletes.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> However, that said, it's an ITF kick and I'm viewing it with Kukkiwon eyes.



He's wearing a KKW or Tang Soo Do type dobok.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Again, I think you may be judging him with both inexperienced eyes and based on viewing younger athletes.



I have seen quite a few kickers in my time. He could practise those on me without a shield. There is little to no acceleration.


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He's wearing a KKW or Tang Soo Do type dobok.



If you look at his YouTube channel for other videos, he uses the term "tul" not poomsae, and the patterns listed are ITF ones. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo we only have a "Side kick" and it would be weird to describe it as a "Side piercing/thrust kick", it's just a side kick.

It may not be an official ITF dobok, but it's definitely not a KKW one.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> If you look at his YouTube channel for other videos, he uses the term "tul" not poomsae, and the patterns listed are ITF ones. In Kukkiwon Taekwondo we only have a "Side kick" and it would be weird to describe it as a "Side piercing/thrust kick", it's just a side kick.
> 
> It may not be an official ITF dobok, but it's definitely not a KKW one.


 
Ok but It's definitely not an ITF dobok. Whatever he's affiliated with, it's not ITF directly.


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## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Ok but It's definitely not an ITF dobok. Whatever he's affiliated with, it's not ITF directly.



Without wishing to get in to a political debate, which ITF are you referring to? You seem to be referring to ITF as a single organisation, and it hasn't been that way since the death of General Choi (as I'd have predicted if asked before that event).

Do all ITF headquarters require the same dobok (bearing in mind multiple groups all called "ITF" at this point)? What about ITF national associations, do they all require the same dobok?

Regardless, you'll note I didn't say he was a member of the ITF (under Paul Weiler), the ITF (under Ri Yong Son), the ITF (under Oh Chang Jin) or any other ITF group. I said it was an ITF kick, not a Kukkiwon one, so I'm not 100% qualified to judge if it was a thrust, piercing, pushing, whatever. GM @Earl Weiss would be better placed to judge that.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> Without wishing to get in to a political debate, which ITF are you referring to?



All of them. ITF doboks regardless of which one it is, does not come with a black collar. 

Btw, why doesn't the KKW distinguish between a thrusting and piercing side kick?


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## andyjeffries (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Btw, why doesn't the KKW distinguish between a thrusting and piercing side kick?



For me, likely because the use case covered by a thrusting kick is already covered by a traditional push kick or a cut kick. But to be honest, it feels to me just as weird as would thinking "why does ITF need two different almost identical variations of a side kick".

I think there's a point where we all have to just accept that ITF and KKW are two branches of a martial art, similar in history, different in practice. Like Tennis and Badminton. To try to think of a conscious decision reason "why does X not have Y" is an exercise in futility. Just my opinion though.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I wouldn't describe it as so, because for me his foot accelerates to the target, *rather than be put on the target then accelerate*. You later say that the acceleration point is very late, that may be because of the gentleman's age that you view it that way. Taekwondo is a lifetime pursuit and you can't judge all students to the standard of a 20-something.
> 
> However, that said, it's an ITF kick and I'm viewing it with Kukkiwon eyes.


The bolded part.  That really sums it up to me.  I describe it as “impacting” the target.  People like to claim that this or that kick is just a push.  Well, any kick can be done as a push or as an impacting strike.  Any kick is not automatically either.  It depends on how it is delivered.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> I think there's a point where we all have to just accept that ITF and KKW are two branches of a martial art, similar in history, different in practice. Like Tennis and Badminton.



I could not disagree more, if we are talking about kicking basics. It is completely arbitrary whether my studied examples are of KKW or ITF branding. There’s a bigger variance within practioners of KKW and ITF than between them. You are just as qualified evaluating ITF hip mechanics as KKW, since it's by and large the same.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> He's wearing a KKW or Tang Soo Do type dobok.


Um, No. He is wearing a Gi style not a Dobak style. I agree with Andy Jefferies, it is an ITF kick. Nothing wrong at all with that.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Um, No. He is wearing a Gi style on a Dobak style..



Yes he is. The amount of ignorance KKW people have of other Taekwondo styles is frankly embarassing.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yes he is. The amount of ignorance KKW people have of other Taekwondo styles is frankly embarassing. View attachment 23150


That is a Gi with black trimming; simple as that. Do you even know what a Dobak is? Style, such as TSD has nothing to do with what kind of uniform it is.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> That is a Gi with black trimming; simple as that. Do you even know what a Dobak is? Style, such as TSD has nothing to do with what kind of uniform it is.



Sigh. I wrote KKW or Tang Soo Do TYPE dobok, meaning black collar.


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Sigh. I wrote KKW or Tang Soo Do TYPE dobok, meaning black collar.


The color of the collar has nothing to do with the type of uniform it is either. There can be Gi's with or without trim and Dobak's with or without trim. 
I have no clue what point you are trying to make.


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## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> The color of the collar has nothing to do with the type of uniform it is either. There can be Gi's with or without trim and Dobak's with or without trim.
> I have no clue what point you are trying to make.



ITF Doboks do not come with black collars. What part of that don't you understand?


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## dvcochran (Sep 15, 2020)

Acronym said:


> ITF Doboks do not come with black collars. What part of that don't you understand?


Well, then I have 6 or 8 Doboks that look suspiciously like they have black trim. Now you arguing against yourself. Rather funny. Go to any MA supply website and you can quickly find them. 
Trimming has Nothing do to with uniform style or MA style. Period.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Well, then I have 6 or 8 Doboks that look suspiciously like they have black trim. Now you arguing against yourself. Rather funny. Go to any MA supply website and you can quickly find them.
> Trimming has Nothing do to with uniform style or MA style. Period.



You are not affiliated with the ITF and yes it does.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> "why does ITF need two different almost identical variations of a side kick".
> 
> .


Need is an interesting term. From my perspective the TK-D practitioner is a craftsman - let's say a carpenter. Perhaps the carpenter uses 20% of his tools 80% of the time and heck sometimes the job can be done with a tool that is not optimal for the task. But having and being able to use the right tool for the task sure makes things go smoother.   Now to the point. The terms "Pierce" and  "Thrust" denote certain parameters as defined / applied by General Choi. (And as he notes lines of distinction are not always clear)   Pierce has a rotational component - Think of the TMA punch that typically has the fist rotate,  with the goal being to create internal hemorrhage, and thrust has little to no  rotation to "Cut Thru" a vital spot. (I think "penetrate" would have been a better choice of words )     I think another analogy is pierce is akin to a bullet rotation and we know the effects of hydro static shock  resulting from the spin, as opposed to how an arrow travels through  the body.   As an aside we know Boxing has no restrictions on the twist of a punch but the gloves negate the effect so it's really pointless in boxing.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Trimming has Nothing do to with uniform style or MA style. Period.


Hmm, sir, are you saying it's not the crust that makes the pie - it's the filling?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 15, 2020)

ITF SPK 


	
	






__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=3777381168955991


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## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> ITF SPK
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My instructor has a new label. He calls his North Korean affiliation *original ITF.*


----------



## Dirty Dog (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You are not affiliated with the ITF and yes it does.



Bollocks. I have a number of diamond pattern dobak. So according to you, that means I've suddenly joined a hapkido system? If I wear a sleeveless black top, I'm now part of the Cobra Kai? Does wearing any of these somehow cause the portions of my brain storing ITF training to melt and run out my ears? Holy crap! How have I ever managed to practice when I wasn't even wearing a dobak of any sort????


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

Dirty Dog said:


> Bollocks. I have a number of diamond pattern dobak. So according to you, that means I've suddenly joined a hapkido system? If I wear a sleeveless black top, I'm now part of the Cobra Kai? Does wearing any of these somehow cause the portions of my brain storing ITF training to melt and run out my ears? Holy crap! How have I ever managed to practice when I wasn't even wearing a dobak of any sort????



I never said that you can't wear other doboks, but it is not an ITF one. And you know that.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My instructor has a new label. He calls his North Korean affiliation *original ITF.*


Interesting.  Chang Hon TKD  began it's development in 1955 and the system was basically completed in 1965.  It was unknown in NK until General Choi took a demo team there in September 1980.  It wasn't until a year or two after that  it was first taught and trained in NK.. So, if NK is "Original"   what do you call those who were doing it for 10, 20 years or more before  they even new it existed?  Or is he simply saying that what NK does  as well as numerous other groups is original ITF?


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Need is an interesting term. From my perspective the TK-D practitioner is a craftsman - let's say a carpenter. Perhaps the carpenter uses 20% of his tools 80% of the time and heck sometimes the job can be done with a tool that is not optimal for the task. But having and being able to use the right tool for the task sure makes things go smoother.   Now to the point. The terms "Pierce" and  "Thrust" denote certain parameters as defined / applied by General Choi. (And as he notes lines of distinction are not always clear)   Pierce has a rotational component - Think of the TMA punch that typically has the fist rotate,  with the goal being to create internal hemorrhage, and thrust has little to no  rotation to "Cut Thru" a vital spot. (I think "penetrate" would have been a better choice of words )     I think another analogy is pierce is akin to a bullet rotation and we know the effects of hydro static shock  resulting from the spin, as opposed to how an arrow travels through  the body.   As an aside we know Boxing has no restrictions on the twist of a punch but the gloves negate the effect so it's really pointless in boxing.


Apologies - Neglected to mention for Side Piercing kick the "Tool" is the "Footsword" outside 1/3 back edge of foot, so the angle is bent so the foot is at about a right angle to the leg, and the side thrusting Kick the Tool is the Ball of the foot so the top of the foot is basically in line with the leg with toes pulled back.


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting.  Chang Hon TKD  began it's development in 1955 and the system was basically completed in 1965.  It was unknown in NK until General Choi took a demo team there in September 1980.  It wasn't until a year or two after that  it was first taught and trained in NK.. So, if NK is "Original"   what do you call those who were doing it for 10, 20 years or more before  they even new it existed?



This is the problem for me with having multiple ITFs, they all have a genuine belief (and probably justifiably so) that they are the official one. So are likely all considering the others imposters.

And that's before we get in to Ohdokwan which is still active in South Korea, and is following Kukkiwon style (ODK is surely is the OG of ITFs ;-) )


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Apologies - Neglected to mention for Side Piercing kick the "Tool" is the "Footsword" outside 1/3 back edge of foot, so the angle is bent so the foot is at about a right angle to the leg, and the side thrusting Kick the Tool is the Ball of the foot so the top of the foot is basically in line with the leg with toes pulled back.



That's very interesting, thanks. The point of impact for a Kukkiwon side kick is the heel - the foot (ankle) is positioned in a foot sword, but that's in case of incorrect impact rather than aiming to hit with it.

Our reasoning for this way is that there's flexion in the ankle naturally so impacting with it during a side kick will suck out some power, whereas hitting with the heel gives a straight line of joints all the way to the core.

Appreciate your insights/answers as always GM Weiss!


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Interesting.  Chang Hon TKD  began it's development in 1955 and the system was basically completed in 1965.  It was unknown in NK until General Choi took a demo team there in September 1980.  It wasn't until a year or two after that  it was first taught and trained in NK.. So, if NK is "Original"   what do you call those who were doing it for 10, 20 years or more before  they even new it existed?



It was General Chois wish on his death bed that the next president was a certain North Korean fellow. That's what I meant with North Korean affiliation


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> This is the problem for me with having multiple ITFs, they all have a genuine belief (and probably justifiably so) that they are the official one. So are likely all considering the others imposters.
> 
> )



If you accept the authority of General Choi as the founder of ITF, and cared about his wishes, then there is only one legitimate.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> That's very interesting, thanks. The point of impact for a Kukkiwon side kick is the heel - the foot (ankle) is positioned in a foot sword, but that's in case of incorrect impact rather than aiming to hit with it.
> 
> Our reasoning for this way is that there's flexion in the ankle naturally so impacting with it during a side kick will suck out some power, whereas hitting with the heel gives a straight line of joints all the way to the core.
> 
> Appreciate your insights/answers as always GM Weiss!


Sir, I always thought it interesting that some systems use the bottom of the heel and some (I think even Shotokan does ) uses what Chang Ho refers to as the "Footsword. " The best rationale I have come up with is that if you look at the wear on the bottom of a lot of shoes we see most on the footword, so if we walk this way naturally there is some anatomical disposition to do it this way and perhaps the anatomy can absorb the impact this way as oppose to the potential for a Heel Spur from repeated heel impact.  Really not much flexion when striking with the footsword since it is the rear edged only where the foot doesn't flex.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It was General Chois wish on his death bed that the next president was a certain North Korean fellow. That's what I meant with North Korean affiliation


And you never thought it curious: 
A. He never mentioned this publicly prior to that date except for perhaps in NK; and
B. No one heard it except the North Korean next to him.


----------



## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you accept the authority of General Choi as the founder of ITF, and cared about his wishes, then there is only one legitimate.


1. I accept General Choi was the Founder and he also had a constitution in place  which he wanted followed.
2. I accept that accuracy of all  information coming out of NK is questionable.
3. At a dinner in 2001 I publicly disagreed with General  Choi when he as lobbying strongly (At that time) for his son to succeed him.  

 So, your premise of "Accepting Authority" is faulty.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> And you never thought it curious:
> A. He never mentioned this publicly prior to that date except for perhaps in NK; and
> B. No one heard it except the North Korean next to him.



There were several prominent people present at his death bed, including Jong Soo Park. And it was convincing evidence enough to win the court case and have the other ITFs to modify their logos and uniforms


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

Btw, I know what caused the falling out with his son..

General Choi was at a demo with son. His son first corrected a technique and then Choi corrected it again, to which the practitioner replied: I was told this was incorrect.

This made Choi fuming.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

@Dirtydog order a traditional white ITF dobok and see if you get a black collar.


----------



## andyjeffries (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Btw, I know what caused the falling out with his son..
> 
> General Choi was at a demo with son. His son first corrected a technique and then Choi corrected it again, to which the practitioner replied: I was told this was incorrect.
> 
> This made Choi fuming.



This post made me chuckle! General Choi's son is also a "Choi". When you know that it's really hard to read. I'll tweak it because I'm weird like that...

General Choi, Hong-hi was at a demo with his son, Choi Jung-hwa. Choi, Jung-hwa first corrected a technique and then General Choi corrected it again, to which the practitioner replied: I was told this was incorrect.

This made General Choi furious.


----------



## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

andyjeffries said:


> This post made me chuckle! General Choi's son is also a "Choi". When you know that it's really hard to read. I'll tweak it because I'm weird like that...
> 
> General Choi, Hong-hi was at a demo with his son, Choi Jung-hwa. Choi, Jung-hwa first corrected a technique and then General Choi corrected it again, to which the practitioner replied: I was told this was incorrect.
> 
> This made General Choi furious.



I should have written Choi the elder but anyway, you got it right


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> @Dirtydog order a traditional white ITF dobok and see if you get a black collar.


I think the point is that you used the uniform style to argue it wasn't an ITF kick. My preferred uniform (solid black) matches only one person I know of in my primary art (other than my own students, who are few, indeed). Until I started using that uniform, I think that other instructor was the only person in the entire art regularly training and teaching in solid black. So if you tried to identify my style (or his) by uniform, you'd have a hard time of it. 

Uniforms don't dictate style, though they can sometimes give us a clue.


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## dvcochran (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Hmm, sir, are you saying it's not the crust that makes the pie - it's the filling?


Yep!


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## dvcochran (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> My instructor has a new label. He calls his North Korean affiliation *original ITF.*


Does your instructor/school have a website to share with the rest of us mere mortals?


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## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I think the point is that you used the uniform style to argue it wasn't an ITF kick. My preferred uniform (solid black) matches only one person I know of in my primary art (other than my own students, who are few, indeed). Until I started using that uniform, I think that other instructor was the only person in the entire art regularly training and teaching in solid black. So if you tried to identify my style (or his) by uniform, you'd have a hard time of it.
> 
> Uniforms don't dictate style, though they can sometimes give us a clue.



ITF is a federation pertaining to a certain style.  The gentleman did not wear an ITF uniform, which most likely means that he is in an ITF off-shoot federation,and those can indeed wear black collar doboks.


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## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Does your instructor/school have a website to share with the rest of us mere mortals?



It was on his clubs Facebook. Just wanted to mention that since I thought it was funny.

My instructor was a personal friend of General Choi. He has pictures of the general sitting in his couch, chillin. And he is adament which federation General Choi gave his blessing to. I'll take a close friends word for it, call me crazy.


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## dvcochran (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It was on his Facebook. Just wanted to mention that since I thought it was funny.
> 
> My instructor was a personal friend of General Choi. He has pictures of the general sitting in his couch, chillin. And he is adament which federation General Choi gave his blessing to. I'll take a close friends word for it, call me crazy.


Well, enlighten us with the source of his Facebook page then.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> There were several prominent people present at his death bed, including Jong Soo Park. And it was convincing evidence enough to win the court case and have the other ITFs to modify their logos and uniforms


I have the decision in both the original and 2 English translations.  It is clear you have not read the decision  as to exactly what the evidence was and was "Won"   but it 
should be somewhat clear since it was the NK group that was one of the ones changing the uniform.   I am also aquainted with GM Jong Soo Park who notably was one of the Korean GMs that left the NK group. He was also at the dinner in 2001 where I disagreed with General Choi as to who the next president should be (At that time he was lobbying for his son. )    You would think he would have been upset with me.    Not long after that he appointed me as one of 3 members to the ITF legal counsel.   Are you sure you can educate me on what the court decision held? 
.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Btw, I know what caused the falling out with his son..
> 
> General Choi was at a demo with son. His son first corrected a technique and then Choi corrected it again, to which the practitioner replied: I was told this was incorrect.
> 
> This made Choi fuming.



This is a fairy tale.  I was there in Rimini Italy (2001)  with people who attended the ITF congress and lived thru events that followed which are well known, and was consulted as legal counsel concerning procedures to be followed with regard to calling a special congress and  expulsion.


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## dvcochran (Sep 16, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> This is a fairy tale.  I was there in Rimini Italy (2001)  with people who attended the ITF congress and lived thru events that followed which are well known, and was consulted as legal counsel concerning procedures to be followed with regard to calling a special congress and  expulsion.


Can I start calling you 'Smooth' Earl Weiss? Because you surely are.


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## Acronym (Sep 16, 2020)

[


Earl Weiss said:


> I have the decision in both the original and 2 English translations.  It is clear you have not read the decision  as to exactly what the evidence was and was "Won"   but it
> should be somewhat clear since it was the NK group that was one of the ones changing the uniform.   I am also aquainted with GM Jong Soo Park who notably was one of the Korean GMs that left the NK group. He was also at the dinner in 2001 where I disagreed with General Choi as to who the next president should be (At that time he was lobbying for his son. )    You would think he would have been upset with me.    Not long after that he appointed me as one of 3 members to the ITF legal counsel.   Are you sure you can educate me on what the court decision held?
> .



Jong Soo Park left all of ITF, not just the NK group, and started his own Global Taekwondo Federation. This is compatible with the the fact that General Choi appointed a certain North Korean as his successor on his death bed. I don't see what one has to do with the other.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> ITF is a federation pertaining to a certain style.  The gentleman did not wear an ITF uniform, which most likely means that he is in an ITF off-shoot federation,and those can indeed wear black collar doboks.


I often wore a non-standard uniform when not in class. So, even given the NGAA regulations being actually consistent across the country, if you'd had a video of me outside class, that wouldn't have helped. And that assumes the regulation is consistent across all member schools in all countries. 

The uniform is only a clue.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

Acronym said:


> [
> 
> 
> Jong Soo Park left all of ITF, not just the NK group, and started his own Global Taekwondo Federation. This is compatible with the the fact that General Choi appointed a certain North Korean as his successor on his death bed. I don't see what one has to do with the other.


Part of the NK bragging rights was that all the Korean GMs became affiliated with that group.   Didn't last long - I wonder why?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 16, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Can I start calling you 'Smooth' Earl Weiss? Because you surely are.


Sir, not sure how to take that.   I am certain I my have been called worse.


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## dvcochran (Sep 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir, not sure how to take that.   I am certain I my have been called worse.


Sir, Please do not misread. I meant that with the utmost respect.


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## Acronym (Sep 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Part of the NK bragging rights was that all the Korean GMs became affiliated with that group.   Didn't last long - I wonder why?



I wonder why they became affiliated with the NK group if you claim that Chois death bed wish wasn't confirmed?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 17, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I wonder why they became affiliated with the NK group if you claim that Chois death bed wish wasn't confirmed?


A couple of things.  1.There was a post about a year after his death   from one of the Seniors who was there relating that General Choi spoke in a soft voice that only the NK person present could hear and he thought the person lied to him.   I figured stuff on the net would be there forever so I never did anything to preserve it and that forum is now long gone.   You can take that for what it's worth. 
2.   You have to understand part of the culture . The Koreans would like nothing more than to have the country united. If TKD   could be a means toward facilitating that so much the better.   Joining the NK group headed by an IOC member could be away of doing this. 
3. Still, why on earth they  still thought it was a good idea, was beyond me.  Obviously within a year or so they thought better of it.   Only Woo Jin Jung maintains a relationship with and Supports the NK controlled  ITF faction.


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## Acronym (Sep 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> 2.   You have to understand part of the culture . The Koreans would like nothing more than to have the country united. If TKD   could be a means toward facilitating that so much the better.   Joining the NK group headed by an IOC member could be away of doing this.
> .



And General Choi was Korean, so you just made my point. .. He had a history of flirting with NK, including creating the pattern Juche for them. For him to appoint a NK as his succesor is not exactly a long-shot.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 17, 2020)

Acronym said:


> And General Choi was Korean, so you just made my point. .. He had a history of flirting with NK, including creating the pattern Juche for them. For him to appoint a NK as his successor is not exactly a long-shot.


Except he had no power or authority to make such an appointment.   For a dying man in his final moments in whatever state of mind to allegedly express certain wishes - which would also facilitate his desire to be buried in the area he was born is not a long shot.

 For the same man to nominate a person  months earlier when he was clear thinking to serve as Senior VP  which in accordance with the constitution was confirmed by the ITF Congress and which the constitution provided would fill any vacancy of the President until the next duly called congress is   what we know happened . The other is somewhere between speculation, conjecture and wishful thinking.   Without any real effect if it ever happened.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 17, 2020)

gpseymour said:


> I often wore a non-standard uniform when not in class. So, even given the NGAA regulations being actually consistent across the country, if you'd had a video of me outside class, that wouldn't have helped. And that assumes the regulation is consistent across all member schools in all countries.
> 
> The uniform is only a clue.


I guess the uniform of my organization is worn out sweatpants (or perhaps shorts) and a ratty tee-shirt with or without a random graphic on it.  This is what I must surmise from what is most commonly worn in class by the members.


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## Acronym (Sep 17, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> For the same man to nominate a person  months earlier when he was clear thinking to serve as Senior VP  which in accordance with the constitution was confirmed by the ITF Congress and which the constitution provided would fill any vacancy of the President until the next duly called congress is   what we know happened . The other is somewhere between speculation, conjecture and wishful thinking.   Without any real effect if it ever happened.



If you have an inheritance dispute in court, do you go by what the agent said X amount of months ago, or the final hours? There was no report of General Choi losing his cognitive faculties right before passing, and to suggest this with no evidence is desperation.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 17, 2020)

Acronym said:


> If you have an inheritance dispute in court, do you go by what the agent said X amount of months ago, or the final hours? There was no report of General Choi losing his cognitive faculties right before passing, and to suggest this with no evidence is desperation.


Since I due Probate / Inheritance law this is simple You go by what has been credibly,  properly, and legally documented witnessed  by disinterested parties. That is legally controlling.   Interested parties are disqualified from being witnesses.   So, no legal document, no credible disinterested qualified witnesses to the alleged last wishes which even if they existed do not supersede proper legal documentation.


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Since I due Probate / Inheritance law this is simple You go by what has been credibly,  properly, and legally documented witnessed  by disinterested parties. That is legally controlling.   Interested parties are disqualified from being witnesses.   So, no legal document, no credible disinterested qualified witnesses to the alleged last wishes which even if they existed do not supersede proper legal documentation.



That's an anser to what constitutes evidence, not what I asked.


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 18, 2020)

Acronym said:


> That's an anser to what constitutes evidence, not what I asked.


Sir, 

This is what you asked' " If you have an inheritance dispute in court, do you go by what the agent said X amount of months ago, or the final hours? " 

I did not accept your change of narrative since I felt it was merely a simple way of recounting what happened.   The facts here are clear, Proper formal procedures were followed months earlier. Not simply "what agent X said months earlier".    So, the proper question in this case is  "What would a court do in this situation? "    The answer is without a doubt follow what the was done through proper procedures  - not what someone allegedly said on their deathbed as related by interested parties.   All of this not withstanding this was not a question of inheritance.


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## Acronym (Sep 18, 2020)

Earl Weiss said:


> Sir,
> 
> This is what you asked' " If you have an inheritance dispute in court, do you go by what the agent said X amount of months ago, or the final hours? "
> 
> I did not accept your change of narrative since I felt it was merely a simple way of recounting what happened.   The facts here are clear, Proper formal procedures were followed months earlier. Not simply "what agent X said months earlier".    So, the proper question in this case is  "What would a court do in this situation? "    The answer is without a doubt follow what the was done through proper procedures  - not what someone allegedly said on their deathbed as related by interested parties.   All of this not withstanding this was not a question of inheritance.



What are these proper formal procedures that you are referring to?


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## Earl Weiss (Sep 18, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What are these proper formal procedures that you are referring to?


Sir, the ITF was an organization that had a constitution which required that certain procedures be followed to elect a President, or what should happen in the event the president was unable to act or died.   The  elections  some 6 months prior to General Choi's death took place at an ITF congress which is where such elections take place.  The Senior VP was elected  to fill the Senior VP Vacancy who (in accordance with the constitution) would act in the event of a presidential  vacancy, The person elected as Senior VP was Russell MacLellan.   This (As required by the constitution) would be in effect until the next properly called congress and elections. General Choi was certainly free to let his preferences be known, however there was no mechanism for these wishes to have any binding effect.


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