# Gaps in WCK training



## kung fu fighter (Nov 21, 2014)

I started this thread based on one of LFJ's post.

*Many WCK practioners rely solely on **chi-sau as their sole method of sparring because they feel it's a safe environment to build skills while minimizing injuries. but unfortunately Chi sao does not address moving through different ranges, how to get it, or the stress inoculation involved. 

I use a system of angular footwork to "cut off the ring"which I refer to as chi sao without touching . 
*
_*What are some training methods you employ to address these aspects of fighting?*

_


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## Vajramusti (Nov 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> I started this thread based on one of LFJ's post.
> 
> *Many WCK practioners rely solely on **chi-sau as their sole method of sparring because they feel it's a safe environment to build skills while minimizing injuries. but unfortunately Chi sao does not address moving through different ranges, how to get it, or the stress inoculation involved.
> 
> ...


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Lineages vary widely.In my training there are lots of variations in chi sao combined with a whole curriculum of footwork and also breaking off, reengaging, 
angling off, slow attack drills, gor sao, cutting off closing etc.When people learn how to control their motions  one can attack and defend without killing each other.


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## Kwan Sau (Nov 21, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> *Many WCK practioners rely solely on **chi-sau as their sole method of sparring because they feel it's a safe environment to build skills while minimizing injuries. but unfortunately Chi sao does not address moving through different ranges, how to get it, or the stress inoculation involved.
> 
> I use a system of angular footwork to *_*"cut off the ring"*_*which I refer to as chi sao without touching *_*.
> 
> What are some training methods you employ to address these aspects of fighting?*_



Lots of different drills at different ranges...some beginning in chi sau two arm range, some beginning in a "wrist-to-wrist" setup, some beginning at close-up "bar fighting" distance i.e. nose-to-nose, etc. 
Footwork is trained very early on...with additional training ongoing throughout the journey with the various jongs (muk yan jong, tri-poles, etc), the drills, mui fa, etc. 
Heavy emphasis is placed on live, multiple opponent scenarios.
Mostly, footwork emphasis is the paramount in every training session...


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## LFJ (Nov 22, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> _*What are some training methods you employ to address these aspects of fighting?*_



How about free sparring?


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## kung fu fighter (Nov 22, 2014)

LFJ said:


> How about free sparring?



Sure, But I believe it has to be close to full contact such as a san shou match.


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## Argus (Nov 22, 2014)

LFJ said:


> How about free sparring?



Free sparring is great if you focus on using it as a method to practice applying what you know under pressure. But I feel that most people get too caught up in winning and let their form, structure, technique, and principles go out the window as the pressure increases, which just forms and reinforces bad habits.

My general approach in free sparring is to concentrate on sticking to my training and maintaining my form, even if I get the snot beat out of me  That's not to say that you can't do what you have to do in a real fight, but there's no sense in practicing sloppy under pressure. And ultimately, if you do that a lot, you'll just get good at being sloppy, as opposed to getting good at being good.


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## Jake104 (Dec 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> Free sparring is great if you focus on using it as a method to practice applying what you know under pressure. But I feel that most people get too caught up in winning and let their form, structure, technique, and principles go out the window as the pressure increases, which just forms and reinforces bad habits.
> 
> My general approach in free sparring is to concentrate on sticking to my training and maintaining my form, even if I get the snot beat out of me  That's not to say that you can't do what you have to do in a real fight, but there's no sense in practicing sloppy under pressure. And ultimately, if you do that a lot, you'll just get good at being sloppy, as opposed to getting good at being good.


Good post! I use the same method. I'd rather get hit in the face and keep form till I get it right. Then amp up the pressure as skill increases. Otherwise sparring can be counterproductive.

I think I read somewhere that the way BJJ introduces beginners to rolling/ sparring is that they will put the white belts with the brown or black belts since they have nothing to prove. It takes the competitive nature out of the equation and allows the beginners to learn. Instead of trying to one up another. Makes sense.


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## Takai (Dec 16, 2014)

Argus said:


> Free sparring is great if you focus on using it as a method to practice applying what you know under pressure. But I feel that most people get too caught up in winning and let their form, structure, technique, and principles go out the window as the pressure increases, which just forms and reinforces bad habits.
> 
> My general approach in free sparring is to concentrate on sticking to my training and maintaining my form, even if I get the snot beat out of me  That's not to say that you can't do what you have to do in a real fight, but there's no sense in practicing sloppy under pressure. And ultimately, if you do that a lot, you'll just get good at being sloppy, as opposed to getting good at being good.



I concur with this method. You should plan on having the toughest fight of your life every night in class. (I don't seem many fights lasting 2 hours.)  So paying close attention to you structure and principles when you start to get fatigued (or worse) is imho one of the best methods for that unfortunate moment that you might actually "need" your training.


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## kung fu fighter (Dec 17, 2014)

Argus said:


> Free sparring is great if you focus on using it as a method to practice applying what you know under pressure. But I feel that most people get too caught up in winning and let their form, structure, technique, and principles go out the window as the pressure increases, which just forms and reinforces bad habits.
> 
> My general approach in free sparring is to concentrate on sticking to my training and maintaining my form, even if I get the snot beat out of me  That's not to say that you can't do what you have to do in a real fight, but there's no sense in practicing sloppy under pressure. And ultimately, if you do that a lot, you'll just get good at being sloppy, as opposed to getting good at being good.



This is also my general approach.


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## mjw1 (Dec 30, 2014)

A lot of wc people are stuck in this chi Sao culture but it's just a developmental drill nothing more or less imo


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## Vajramusti (Dec 31, 2014)

mjw1 said:


> A lot of wc people are stuck in this chi Sao culture but it's just a developmental drill nothing more or less imo


-----------------------------------
Nothing wrong with continued development and  progress in skills.Gor sao enhances applications: bridges to fighting.Unreasonable expectation to have real non sport fighting wing chun fighting to be shown on chat sites.


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## mjw1 (Dec 31, 2014)

Drills are good as is Gore Sao but people who just do chi Sao and make that their sparring if you will or say sparring is detrimental to development thus only chi Sao are missing the point imo


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Why worry if the fundamentals are in place


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2014)

kung fu fighter said:


> _*What are some training methods you employ to address these aspects of fighting?*_


- left hand downward parry (feel where your opponent's leading arm is, make sure his leading arm won't give you any trouble),
- right hand comb hair (feel where your opponent's back arm is, make sure his back arm won't give you any trouble),
- right leg jam leading leg (feel where your opponent's leading leg is, make sure his leading leg won't give you any trouble),
- you then enter.

You separate your opponent's arms with one arm downward and another arm upward. When you feel "safe", you then enter through his "front door". It's just a general "enter strategy - open his door and then enter". It may not have anything to do with any particular style.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - left hand downward parry (sense where your opponent's leading arm is),
> - right hand comb hair (sense where your opponent's back arm is),
> - right leg jam opponent's leading leg (sense where your opponent's leading leg is),
> - you then enter.
> ...



Can I ask please, what are you using to accomplish that?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Dec 31, 2014)

Transk53 said:


> Can I ask please, what are you using to accomplish that?


Assume your opponent is standing like this with boxing guard.








You use your

- left hand to downward parry his right arm,






- hide your head next to your right arm as combing your hair, use your right elbow to strike on his right shoulder,






- You then enter.


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## Transk53 (Dec 31, 2014)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Assume your opponent is standing like this with boxing guard. You use your
> 
> - left hand to downward parry his right arm,
> - hide your head next to your right arm as combing your hair, use your right elbow to strike on his right shoulder,
> - ...



Coolio  Brilliant


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