# Chi Sao: Is it possible..



## zooyakku (Sep 14, 2008)

Hello everyone! This is my first post and I have a few things i wanted to discuss.

To begin, I DO NOT take any Wing Chun classes or anything, I'm in a Judo/TKD club. That said, I have read ALOT of material on Wing Chun and have come to understand many intricacies within the art, and I've become particularly fascinated with Chi Sao in particular. When I first learned of Chi Sao, it didn't take me very long to understand its basic premise and I found its scientific approach to be very profound.  This is the only art that I have witnessed where there is so emphasis on the layout and STRUCTURE of one's movements, every angle of attack has been taken into account. For me, Chi Sao seems like uncovering a map to one's martial intent. For every action (within the scope of Chi Sao), there is a Natural structure to balance it out (emphasis on natural).

Basically, it's hard for me to articulate what Chi Sao can do for ANY martial artist. I've seen it in action and I recognize how (in its highest practice) it all relates to the core principles of Wing Chun. The practice of Wing Chun TRULY agrees with its scientific observations.

That is why I want to develop Chi Sao skill. Now onward..
Is it possible develop decent chi sao WITHOUT a teacher, assuming that one has an adequate understand of the structures use (tan, bong, fok) and a knowledge of drills that aid in developing sensitivity.  
Keep in mind, I have NO access to a Kwoon, and I would have practice with someone with no prior understanding of wing chun (however, i think i could explain things pretty well, like keeping your elbows in, having forward intent, rooting..)
So what do you think? Could I do this on my own?


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## mook jong man (Sep 14, 2008)

That would be like me saying i've read a couple of books on brain surgery and i have this friend and he's going to let me perform frontal lobotomies on him .

 I sort of know the basics like cutting through his skull with a power saw and removing the frontal lobe. 
Okay i am exaggerating but you get my drift , there is a reason chi sao is practiced for many years that is because it is a very hard skill to do properly .

 In my opinion there is no substitute for instruction and supervision under a properly qualified teacher . 

Trying to do it yourself will only lead to the ingraining of bad habits that will be near on impossible to correct later on.
I know that is not the sort of answer you want to hear but thats the way it is unfortunately.


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## geezer (Sep 15, 2008)

zooyakku said:


> Keep in mind, I have NO access to a Kwoon, and I would have practice with someone with no prior understanding of wing chun (however, i think i could explain things pretty well, like keeping your elbows in, having forward intent, rooting..)
> So what do you think? Could I do this on my own?



_Yes!_, you could develop something like chi-sau if you really understand the concept, have a good aptitude, are willing to work hard on it for most of your life, and then can pass it on to another generation who will dutifully shoulder the same burden. In five to ten generations, that is to say in a century or two, something very like chi sau might emerge. While you are at it you might set about reinventing the wheel too!

...or, you could track down a decent Wing Chun/Wing Tsun practioner to help get you started. There really is not substitute for a good instructor, except a really good substitute instructor. The Mook Man has it right, dude. If you are serious, start searching and don't stop till you find someone. Or get a group together and pay to bring someone in. Good luck!


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## matsu (Sep 15, 2008)

hi mate.
i,m sure you,ll think mooks answer was bit blunt or harsh and to be honest when i first started wing chun 7 months ago i felt a few people werea lttle eliteist(not on here) and that you had to survive a right od passage or similar before they let you do certain things etc BUT......

in the time i have been studying and i do train hard,it is in my nigh every minute that i contemplate my body movement or something that i am trying to put right inbetween classes i have come to realise that wing chun is by far the hardest MA to perfect.
its movemnts idiocincrises and mechanics are so defined technical and amazingly simple when done right that is impossible to get them right without a sifu to help you.
i am yet to do chi sao,my training partner is slighlty more advanced and has attempted one arm chi sao and althoug the movements are simple to look at,the intent and sensitivity and actual flow could never be learned by book or even dvd.
try to find a sifu mate,, and i,m not sure you could effectively learn just chis sao without understanding the basic moves.
it has taken me 6 months to learn bong correctly and evn now its not great under pressure.
there is so much to learn but thta why i love it.
hope thta helps
matsu


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## profesormental (Sep 15, 2008)

Greetings.

This is an interesting question.

Fact is, if you really wanted to, you could learn chi sao. There is enough information out there to get you started.

I really recommend getting guidance and advice on the way, and even going to seminars and to qualified teachers eventually.

You will get some skills out of it, yet the details in the structure are the main difference that make the difference. The details in structure and the "energy" are what makes a good Wing Chun practitioner explode though someone's defenses.

Poor attention to structure will lead to a tippy tappity tag contest instead of a chipping hammer drilling through your opponent. That is the power of Wing Chun Kuen Fat.

If you really want to, get a friend and start. If you're serious, you'll do that and then ask for guidance and keep training. And remember that Chi Sao is a skill, and you get the skill by rolling hands and training.

It is important to note that Chi Sao by itself doesn't include the structure training that the Forms training programs give which make Chi Sao so formidable as a tool.

The forms by themselves, without the knowledge of the qualified teacher transmitting that knowledge, are very much hollow in comparison.

So as soon as you can get a teacher and train. I know of people that wanted to train, and picked up the phone and called people until someone was willing to help. Many teachers are.

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,

Juan M. Mercado


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## profesormental (Sep 15, 2008)

P.S. Like Dr. Ron Chapél said:

"Now, do the best that you can with what you have. When you find something better, do that!"


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## skinters (Sep 15, 2008)

hello zooyakku

before i took classes in wingchun i would practice the movements everyday including the first form,i built my own wooden dummy and watched a lot of wingchun especially chisao online.

when it came to me actually attending my first class i was constantly asked how much former wingchun training i have had,nobody could believe this was my first lesson .

so what im trying to say is yes you can learn a certain ammount by yourself soak up as much as you can books and watch a lot of chisao.i used to download vids on youtube and play them in slowmotion.there are also fantastic chisao articles out there .. http://www.wingtsunmilano/html/Chi-sao1.html is one of the most in depth analisis of chisao ive ever read.

at the same time after all that if you want to learn to swim you have to get in the water,and to feel first hand what chisao is all about .

good luck .


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 15, 2008)

You can do sticking drills, even on a wooden dummy. However, the best path is always through a teacher. You won't know if you are picking up bad habits or not. Yet sometimes practising alone can give you more clarification than when you are being put under pressure by a training partner!!

Personally I would start off playing around with basic concepts of chi sao and stick (working in structure) and then try and find someone who can help you out


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## graychuan (Sep 15, 2008)

zooyakku said:


> Hello everyone! This is my first post and I have a few things i wanted to discuss.
> 
> To begin, I DO NOT take any Wing Chun classes or anything, I'm in a Judo/TKD club. That said, I have read ALOT of material on Wing Chun and have come to understand many intricacies within the art, and I've become particularly fascinated with Chi Sao in particular. When I first learned of Chi Sao, it didn't take me very long to understand its basic premise and I found its scientific approach to be very profound. This is the only art that I have witnessed where there is so emphasis on the layout and STRUCTURE of one's movements, every angle of attack has been taken into account. For me, Chi Sao seems like uncovering a map to one's martial intent. For every action (within the scope of Chi Sao), there is a Natural structure to balance it out (emphasis on natural).
> 
> ...


 
Short answer...No.


Love, Peace & Chitlin Grease

~Ch'uan


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## gblnking (Sep 16, 2008)

The short answer is "yes". Just like one can learn to punch, kick, or throw someone with enough knowledge gleaned from a variety of resources Chi Soa too can be learned. It's not the ideal way to do it, or the most effective. A well trained teacher is by far the best to learn from but I know that it can be hard to find good instruction. Then getting past the filler stuff can be like pulling teeth.


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## matsu (Sep 16, 2008)

how amazing that so many of us give different answers.all correct and all from different perspectives.

good luck with whatever you decide.

matsu


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## KamonGuy2 (Sep 17, 2008)

It obviously depends on the source that you learn from. If you are learning from a video for example, then you have a teacher of sorts, albeit a poor one

If you are learning just by doing it on your own, you will struggle immensley and make it ten times harder. 

With a teacher, you can ask questions and interact with them. They will point out problems and help give you ideas

Saying that, I've never had a girlfriend, but I've always been fairly good in bed...


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## skinters (Sep 17, 2008)

> Saying that, I've never had a girlfriend, but I've always been fairly good in bed...



would you care to elaborate on that one a bit more mate haha ,,kidding


the time i spent studying wingchun before i attended classes was to me instrumental in bringing me up to speed with people who have been doing it a lot longer .

i have often said my study of wingchun dont end with the class it continues with my own research and training .

ultimately you cannot expect your sifu to give you all you need with wingchun and a lot of the questions you ask need to be answered by yourself.

i hear a lot of no it impossible to learn wingchun without a sifu or training partner ...well yeah ok but its not set in stone,and i am in the end responsible for my own development and not my class or sifu  

like i said by practicing the forms and movments of wingchun before taking a class give me a fantastic head start ,and i feel just saying no you cant learn wingchun on your own is a negative way of looking at it .


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## brocklee (Sep 21, 2008)

gblnking said:


> The short answer is "yes". Just like one can learn to punch, kick, or throw someone with enough knowledge gleaned from a variety of resources Chi Soa too can be learned. It's not the ideal way to do it, or the most effective. A well trained teacher is by far the best to learn from but I know that it can be hard to find good instruction. Then getting past the filler stuff can be like pulling teeth.



HAHAHAHAHA....and I thanked you for the laugh too


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## gblnking (Sep 22, 2008)

brocklee said:


> HAHAHAHAHA....and I thanked you for the laugh too


 
Lucky me.


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