# How Mr. Parker taught forms



## mj-hi-yah (Nov 14, 2004)

This question is to All Seniors, who studied with Mr. Parker,

I recently viewed a tape of Mr. Parker teaching Long Form IV and Long Form V.  It was fascinating to watch!  I found it very interesting that he taught the forms in time - to a count.  I am curious if all forms and sets were taught this way by Mr. Parker, and was the purpose of this teaching method for students to improve their timing, for memory or for some other reason?  Do you teach, or advocate teaching, forms to a count today?

Respectfully,
MJ :asian:


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## Doc (Nov 18, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> This question is to All Seniors, who studied with Mr. Parker,
> 
> I recently viewed a tape of Mr. Parker teaching Long Form IV and Long Form V.  It was fascinating to watch!  I found it very interesting that he taught the forms in time - to a count.  I am curious if all forms and sets were taught this way by Mr. Parker,


Don't know, although he stressesd timing and breathing with me as evidenced in my coursebook re techniques.


> and was the purpose of this teaching method for students to improve their timing, for memory or for some other reason?


For me it was about learning how timing and breathing go hand-in-hand and that proper execution has a distinct rhythm unto itself as well as a "dual" or "Paired Rhythm" between you and an attacker.


> Do you teach, or advocate teaching, forms to a count today?


That is how I was taught by Mr. Parker, however the forms and their interpretation were in many ways, much different.


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## mj-hi-yah (Nov 18, 2004)

Thanks for your response Doc :asian: 





			
				Doc said:
			
		

> For me it was about learning how timing and breathing go hand-in-hand and that proper execution has a distinct rhythm unto itself as well as a "dual" or "Paired Rhythm" between you and an attacker.


When you talk about "Paired Rhythm" are you referring to it in terms of forms, or do you consider there to be a "Paired Rhythm" between a person and his/her attacker in an actual fight, or in a sparring situation?  When sparring for instance,  while I can't say that there are never times when I feel rhythmically in synch with my sparring partner, I find that I often have my own rhythm separate from my partner's rhythm and I usually try to work to break their rhythm. 






> That is how I was taught by Mr. Parker, however the forms and their interpretation were in many ways, much different.


  I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.  Are you referring to how you were taught personally as opposed to how others may have been shown?

MJ


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## Doc (Nov 18, 2004)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> Thanks for your response Doc :asian: When you talk about "Paired Rhythm" are you referring to it in terms of forms, or do you consider there to be a "Paired Rhythm" between a person and his/her attacker in an actual fight, or in a sparring situation?



Sparring is fun and has a few benefits but is not a fight. The better you get at sparring, the worse you get at "fighting." I only talk about fighting.

Anytime you are engaged by an attacker he has a "rhythm" of his own predicated on his intentions from moment to momemt. Your responses to external stymuli also have a specific rhythm triggered by that stymulus from moment to moment. 

In a fight, both rhythms and timing must be considered in your response. There are those who practice techniques where someone throws a punch and then simply "freeezes" and lets the defender "do his thing." Looks good, and even sounds good as they slap themselves silly, but is totally unrealistic to have a predetermined "rhythm" that does not take into account the physical reactions and continued attack of an assailant.

Where I come from, there is a tendancy for more than one punch to be thrown, and nobody "allows" you to do a technique. You must control and dominate the space between you and an attacker, impose your physical will through sound physical principles, and use the rhythm/timing accordingly to be effective until the threat is controlled/nullified. That is the standard I teach from.


> When sparring for instance,  while I can't say that there are never times when I feel rhythmically in synch with my sparring partner, I find that I often have my own rhythm separate from my partner's rhythm and I usually try to work to break their rhythm.


Sparring is not fighting, however in those type of encounters, concentrating on breaking the rhythm of an opponant may lead to a dysruption of your own rhythm and timing as well. Sparring is a fight that has been announced but hasn't started yet, until you actually engage your attacker. Unfortunately in most sparring, the moment you actually engage in the "fight," is when you are stopped, step back, re-announce the intent to fight, and start over again.


> I'm not quite sure what you mean by this.  Are you referring to how you were taught personally as opposed to how others may have been shown?


I never profess to be an authority on exactly what or how other people have been taught, especially if I weren't there. I do know GENERALLY what was done and available based on what Ed Parker Sr. told me, but I am only definitive as I should be on my own experiences


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## mj-hi-yah (Nov 18, 2004)

HMM Thanks Doc, there's much to think about here, so I'd like to give it proper thought...:asian:


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## Doc (Mar 18, 2005)

mj-hi-yah said:
			
		

> HMM Thanks Doc, there's much to think about here, so I'd like to give it proper thought...:asian:


Thinking is a good thing. I try to do it from time-to-time myself.


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## kenpo_cory (Apr 30, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Sparring is fun and has a few benefits but is not a fight. The better you get at sparring, the worse you get at "fighting." I only talk about fighting.


Is there sparring in your classes?


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## Sigung86 (May 2, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Thinking is a good thing. I try to do it from time-to-time myself.




Hmmm... Tried that once and nothing happened! *

*Curly Howard ca 1941
 :mrtoilet: 

Seriously, reading the Good Doctor and corresponding with him, when he has time, can be an extremely enlightening situation.   :asian:


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 16, 2006)

Isn't that what happens as you become more "Senior" ?


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## Doc (Sep 17, 2006)

kenpo_cory said:


> Is there sparring in your classes?



Yes.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 18, 2006)

Question! Does SL-4 refer to "sparring" as "sparring"...or is there different terminology used to refer to a different type of what most would know as "freestyle", "sparring", etc?


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## Doc (Sep 18, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> Question! Does SL-4 refer to "sparring" as "sparring"...or is there different terminology used to refer to a different type of what most would know as "freestyle", "sparring", etc?



"Sparring" is taught and trained as "A.O.T. or D. Depending upon the lessons. Anticipated Offensive Training Techniques, and Drills.

Mr. Parker always said Self defense techniques are designed primarily for when you are attacked momentarily unaware. You look up to see a punch coming, or you're pushed off balance before you know it.

There is supposed to be another set of techniques and drills to draw the forms sets and techniques together to complete the circle of learning tools. You'll notice that 'sparring' isn't mentioned. Most "sparring' by its very nature is a limited extemporaneous exchange for the purposes of scoring points in competition. t is therefore very limited in application, and even they are supplanted with 'scoring' over proper form, technique, and body mechanics. This type of sparring is counter-productive and usually ends up looking like two unskilled guys brawling, instead of trained fighters training.

"Freestyle" was created to be a sport for competition,and is the lowest form of expression of the martial arts, and rarely does the ability to "freestyle spar" translate into the ability to fight equally as well on the street.

A.O.T. fills that gap, and to the casual observer it can take on the appearance of JKD sparring, Wing Chun Chi Sao, or elements of what Mr. Parker created to support his tournament, "Freestyle Formulas" rolled at various times into one. The "Freestyle Formulas" were only part of the equation and Parker begrudgingly created them. He personally didn't believe in that type of sparring after his exposure to the Chinese Methodology.

They are specific technique applications designed for expedious results when an imminent attack is anticipated. When practiced as drills to enhance body mechanics and build hand eye coordination, they take on a rapid back and forth movement, with each participant being forced to effectively react to the external stimuli, or suffer reasonable training consequences. We wear special gloves, a boxing mouthguard, a big cup, and with drills, forearm protection.


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## Kenpodoc (Sep 19, 2006)

Doc said:


> "Sparring" is taught and trained as "A.O.T. or D. Depending upon the lessons. Anticipated Offensive Training Techniques, and Drills.
> 
> Mr. Parker always said Self defense techniques are designed primarily for when you are attacked momentarily unaware. You look up to see a punch coming, or you're pushed off balance before you know it.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a lot of fun.

Jeff


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## Doc (Sep 19, 2006)

It actually is fun sir, and forces you to coordinate and develop quick functional reflexes within a proper anatomical context. Sloppy execution is not allowed.


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## IWishToLearn (Sep 23, 2006)

Heh...I think I already know de answer...but is there a penalty for sloppy performance?


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 18, 2006)

Doc said:


> In a fight, both rhythms and timing must be considered in your response. There are those who practice techniques where someone throws a punch and then simply "freeezes" and lets the defender "do his thing." Looks good, and even sounds good as they slap themselves silly, but is totally unrealistic to have a predetermined "rhythm" that does not take into account the physical reactions and continued attack of an assailant.
> 
> Where I come from, there is a tendancy for more than one punch to be thrown, and nobody "allows" you to do a technique. You must control and dominate the space between you and an attacker, impose your physical will through sound physical principles, and use the rhythm/timing accordingly to be effective until the threat is controlled/nullified. That is the standard I teach from.



Doc I may be way way off here - but from what I've seen can you let me know if I'm even in the ballpark? 

What I gathered from watching your boys bounce each other around is that while they appear to be moving slower than 99.99999 of the rest of kenpo, the pauses and breathing timing they're using is preventing resetting and movement of the attacker because of how they're misaligning and controlling the attacker's body while they're performing their techniques.

In the ballpark or out beyond the train tracks?


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## Doc (Nov 18, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> Doc I may be way way off here - but from what I've seen can you let me know if I'm even in the ballpark?
> 
> What I gathered from watching your boys bounce each other around is that while they appear to be moving slower than 99.99999 of the rest of kenpo, the pauses and breathing timing they're using is preventing resetting and movement of the attacker because of how they're misaligning and controlling the attacker's body while they're performing their techniques.
> 
> In the ballpark or out beyond the train tracks?



Homeplate!


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 19, 2006)

I'll be damned. Something got through that lump of clay 3 feet above my bum.


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## Doc (Nov 19, 2006)

IWishToLearn said:


> I'll be damned. Something got through that lump of clay 3 feet above my bum.



Even a broken clock is right twice a day.


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## IWishToLearn (Nov 20, 2006)

Lmao!


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## Goldendragon7 (Dec 26, 2007)

Doc said:


> Even a broken clock is right twice a day.



OMG


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## marlon (Aug 19, 2008)

A.O.T. fills that gap, and to the casual observer it can take on the appearance of JKD sparring, Wing Chun Chi Sao, or elements of what Mr. Parker created to support his tournament, "Freestyle Formulas" rolled at various times into one. The "Freestyle Formulas" were only part of the equation and Parker begrudgingly created them. He personally didn't believe in that type of sparring after his exposure to the Chinese Methodology.

They are specific technique applications designed for expedious results when an imminent attack is anticipated. When practiced as drills to enhance body mechanics and build hand eye coordination, they take on a rapid back and forth movement, with each participant being forced to effectively react to the external stimuli, or suffer reasonable training consequences. We wear special gloves, a boxing mouthguard, a big cup, and with drills, forearm protection.[/quote]





is two man fist set supposed to do something of this training?

Respectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc (Aug 20, 2008)

marlon said:


> is two man fist set supposed to do something of this training?
> 
> Respectfully,
> Marlon



?


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## marlon (Aug 20, 2008)

Doc said:


> ?


 

does two man fist set fill some of the requirements of A.O.T. and or the chinese methodalogy you mentioned?

respectfully,
marlon


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## Doc (Aug 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> does two man fist set fill some of the requirements of A.O.T. and or the chinese methodalogy you mentioned?
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



I know of no "2 man fist set" in any version of Ed Parker's teachings.


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## marlon (Aug 21, 2008)

interesting.  We have a form called two man fist set that i was told Nick Cerio brought it to kempo from Ed.Parker sr. which is why it is an optional form to learn...actually i was told that the book Secrets of Chinese karate largely dealt with the two man fist set form.  I do not have the book ...yet..but this is what i have been told.

respectfully,
marlon


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## Doc (Aug 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> interesting.  We have a form called two man fist set that i was told Nick Cerio brought it to kempo from Ed.Parker sr. which is why it is an optional form to learn...actually i was told that the book Secrets of Chinese karate largely dealt with the two man fist set form.  I do not have the book ...yet..but this is what i have been told.
> 
> respectfully,
> marlon



First don't believe everything you're told about history. It can be really convoluted. Second, there is a Two-Man Set in SOCK. It is also known in various circles as "The Book Set," and "Panther Set." To add to the confusion, some have actually created different sets to match the nick names of the original Two-Man Set, which was a mixture of material from Ark Wong, Jimmy Woo, and Ed Parker to illustrate a particular way of traditional training. It resembles certain aspects of our A.O.D.'s in concept only.


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## marlon (Aug 21, 2008)

live and learn...love to learn

thank you.  Do you know where it is possible to find the original? Also what is SOCK?

REspectfully,
Marlon


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## Doc (Aug 21, 2008)

marlon said:


> live and learn...love to learn
> 
> thank you.  Do you know where it is possible to find the original? Also what is SOCK?
> 
> ...



"SOCK." It's in the "Book."


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## IWishToLearn (Aug 21, 2008)

SOCK is Mr. Parker's 2nd (I think) book. Secrets Of Chinese Karate = SOCK.


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## John Bishop (Aug 21, 2008)

Doc said:


> "SOCK." It's in the "Book."



Doc, are you messing with him? %-} And S-O-C-K is just short for the "Secrets of Chinese Karate" book.


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## marlon (Aug 21, 2008)

verrrry funnnnnyy.  I got socked!



marlon


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