# Lok Hup Ba Fa (luihebafa)



## DaPoets

East Winds-
   I'm going to be taking the full week of Lok Hup Ba Fa (TTCS) June 9th-13th and I'm very much excited about it as I have not done lok hup yet.  I was told that durring lok hup week they have to cook twice as much food as normal due to the amount of energy burned that week.  Did  you take Lok Hup (1st half or whole thing) and if so what was your experence with it?


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## mograph

If I may intrude ... 

... DaPoets, are you taking any Lok Hup classes _after_ the LHBF week?


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## DaPoets

I am speaking of the actual Lok Hup Ba Fa week held at Orangeville from June 9th - 13th.  Lok Hup is taught in two ways with in TTCS.  A 2 day weekend which teaches the 1st half, and then the 2nd way is a week long (well 5 days) instruction on the entire Lok Hup Ba Fa set.  Any Lok Hup classes after that will be based on the available instruction at the TTCS location where you attend.  There are only a hand full of people qualified to teach the full Lok Hup but there are a good amount out there that teach the 1st half.  We have 1 person in our buffalo location that can teach the 1st half but is planning his wedding so isn't around that much these days.


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Yes, I did the full Lock Hup Bat Fat set with the TTCS, but it was only later when I studied the art out-with the Society that I realised the limitations of the TTCS teachings. I'm afraid its the same with their Xing Yi teachings. Without the martial aspects you are only learning a set of movements with no understanding of their underlying significance. You are only learning half the art. How can Yin exist without Yang?

Anyway, enjoy your workshop and let us know how you fare.

Very best wishes


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## mograph

East Winds, 

Did you study with Ben Chung?


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> DaPoets,
> 
> Yes, I did the full Lock Hup Bat Fat set with the TTCS, but it was only later when I studied the art out-with the Society that I realised the limitations of the TTCS teachings. I'm afraid its the same with their Xing Yi teachings. Without the martial aspects you are only learning a set of movements with no understanding of their underlying significance. You are only learning half the art. How can Yin exist without Yang?
> 
> Anyway, enjoy your workshop and let us know how you fare.
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Sorry to go off post but this whole TTCS Xingyiquan intrigues me. They do not teach MA but they teach Xingyi...interesting.

I have a question about this, do they teach and require Santi Shi?


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> ... do they teach and require Santi Shi?



This is also called Zhan Zhuang, no?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> This is also called Zhan Zhuang, no?


 
No

Zhan Zhaung and Santi Shi are quite different.

I imagine the TTCS trains Zhan Zhuang many CMA styles do but do they train Santi with thier Xingyi?


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## mograph

Xue Sheng said:


> No
> Zhan Zhaung and Santi Shi are quite different.



(researching ...)

Hm. Nifty!


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> (researching ...)
> 
> Hm. Nifty!


 
zhan zhuang

Santi Shi

Santi Shi posture


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## mograph

Thanks, Xue Sheng!


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## DaPoets

Taught by TTCS

taijiquan
taijijian
taijidao
luihebafa
xingyi
And w/ Fung Loy Kok : qigong, meditation, ceremonies, chanting, and the study of Taoist texts.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> Taught by TTCS
> 
> taijiquan
> taijijian
> taijidao
> luihebafa
> xingyi
> And w/ Fung Loy Kok : qigong, meditation, ceremonies, chanting, and the study of Taoist texts.


 
But do you know if Santi Shi is part of the TTCS Xingyiquan training?


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## East Winds

Xue,

No, Santi Shi is not taught by the TTCS. They do teach one posture of Zhan Zhuang but that is about it!! Yes, I know - Xing Yi without Santi Shi :erg:

Very best wishes


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## Xue Sheng

East Winds said:


> Xue,
> 
> No, Santi Shi is not taught by the TTCS. They do teach one posture of Zhan Zhuang but that is about it!! Yes, I know - Xing Yi without Santi Shi :erg:
> 
> Very best wishes


 
Ahhh now it makes sense, it is the Modern Wushu Version, likely similar to Hebei Style but with the foundation missing. 

Thank You


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## JadecloudAlchemist

How do you do Hsing yi with out Santi shi?


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## Xue Sheng

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> How do you do Hsing yi with out Santi shi?


 
good question, I would still like to see TTCS version of Xingyi, but to be honest that is how the Wushu version is taught (without Santi) and it looks like it has no foundation and no power.

Note: my Xingyiquan Sifu's sifu told him that when he could stand in Santi for 20 minutes per side he would consider him a beginner.


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## Formosa Neijia

JadecloudAlchemist said:


> How do you do Hsing yi with out Santi shi?



You don't. If you can't do santishi, you can't do xingyi. It's as simple as that.


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## DaPoets

ok I'm trying to catch up on Santi shi and from my google search, pictures and videos that I have found, those same movements are in the TTCS xingyi set...  But as I don't know much at all about xingyi yet as I have not taken it at this point in time I may not even know what to look for.  I take xingyi for a week training in June.  I was told that while learning xingyi that certain movements are done repeatedly (much more so than the other forms) to train the body and mind on how to correctly do them and even held still for a time to build that strength...  Again I don't know much about it but this is what I was told by different people.  Additionally, some that I spoke to said that they strive to hold certain positions for 30 minutes.... perhaps this is what is being referenced?


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## JadecloudAlchemist

Its not so much just sitting in the posture.
 As my teacher pointed out by doing showing Horse stance with no root and Santi with root. He was trying to show just because you are low does not mean you have root. 

Hsing yi is very martial and in your face. 
 You can not do Hsing yi with out learning the martial aspect.
Some learn boxing for health but you still learn Jabs and Crosses which of course can be used for self defense. 

Hsing yi is a very direct explosive style.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> ok I'm trying to catch up on Santi shi and from my google search, pictures and videos that I have found, those same movements are in the TTCS xingyi set... But as I don't know much at all about xingyi yet as I have not taken it at this point in time I may not even know what to look for. I take xingyi for a week training in June. I was told that while learning xingyi that certain movements are done repeatedly (much more so than the other forms) to train the body and mind on how to correctly do them and even held still for a time to build that strength... Again I don't know much about it but this is what I was told by different people. Additionally, some that I spoke to said that they strive to hold certain positions for 30 minutes.... perhaps this is what is being referenced?


 
Santi Shi

Click the above link that is santi shi and yes you will see that in many forms in xingyiquan but doing that in the form is not training Santi.

You need to get in that position and stand in it and NOT move to train it and Xingyi without that is, to be honest the only word I can think of is, floppy. Meaning to loose and limp there is no root and no understanding of application and without Santi Shi training there is no internal either


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## DaPoets

I guess I'll comment on it further from the TTCS stand point after I study it in June for a week.  It will be for 5 days, 8 hours a day so I'm sure I'll have some things to say about the topic.  This is great stuff though for me to ask durring the sessions.


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## Xue Sheng

DaPoets said:


> I guess I'll comment on it further from the TTCS stand point after I study it in June for a week. It will be for 5 days, 8 hours a day so I'm sure I'll have some things to say about the topic. This is great stuff though for me to ask durring the sessions.


 
I look forward to your post


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## East Winds

I have to say, that as it is now some time since I left the TTCS, things may have changed. But in my day, any mention of Santi would have been met with a blank stare. The Xing Yi I was taught by the Society was what Oxy would call Taji Xing Yi!!! and was nothing like the Xing Yi I did a little of some years later. Unless the Society has changed its attitude to applying the martial, then I'm afraid it will still be the same old floppy energy-less forms. As others have said, you cannot do Xing Yi without a martial content. 

It was interesting to see DaPoets saying that the TTCS was now a Religious organisation teaching Tai Chi. In my day, Moy was very careful to keep the religious side well away from the TTCS (confining it to Fung Loy Kok and Gei Pang) in case it frightened the old ladies away. So there is obviously some changes taking place in the Society.

Very best wishes


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## mograph

Fung Loy Kok owns the new temple in Orangeville.


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## mograph

DaPoets, are you a teacher with the TTCS?

If you are a teacher, and you do any martial arts research outside the TTCS, I'd advise you to keep it to yourself or risk losing your class.  At least, you might be asked to "step back and reflect" on your relationship to TTCS.

But, being in Buffalo, you might have some kind of a buffer in that way. In Toronto, word travels pretty fast up the food chain.


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## DaPoets

East Winds said:


> I have to say, that as it is now some time since I left the TTCS, things may have changed. But in my day, any mention of Santi would have been met with a blank stare. The Xing Yi I was taught by the Society was what Oxy would call Taji Xing Yi!!! and was nothing like the Xing Yi I did a little of some years later. Unless the Society has changed its attitude to applying the martial, then I'm afraid it will still be the same old floppy energy-less forms. As others have said, you cannot do Xing Yi without a martial content.
> 
> It was interesting to see DaPoets saying that the TTCS was now a Religious organisation teaching Tai Chi. In my day, Moy was very careful to keep the religious side well away from the TTCS (confining it to Fung Loy Kok and Gei Pang) in case it frightened the old ladies away. So there is obviously some changes taking place in the Society.
> 
> Very best wishes


 

After Mr Moy's passing the 3 pretty much merged for the most part.  You will see FLK events just as easily as TTCS events.


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## DaPoets

mograph said:


> DaPoets, are you a teacher with the TTCS?
> 
> If you are a teacher, and you do any martial arts research outside the TTCS, I'd advise you to keep it to yourself or risk losing your class. At least, you might be asked to "step back and reflect" on your relationship to TTCS.
> 
> But, being in Buffalo, you might have some kind of a buffer in that way. In Toronto, word travels pretty fast up the food chain.


 
Yes I am an instructor with TTCS and a close minded instructor is a weak instructor.  I attend classes not only in Buffalo but also in Toronto and Orangeville (international center).  There is no reason to not inquire, read, view, and increase your knowledge of what is out there outside of TTCS and not even the most senior instructors will tell you that is ok and will even encourage you to.  It is when you start to take offical classes/instruction from another group/master that will then get people upset as it's not good to have more than one master.  12 years of being in TTCS has shown me this to be true.  If you are located farther from the source (Toronto/Orangeville) then things can get a bit weird and groups have even spun off to do their own thing.  There are groups that promot the fact that they were founded by Master Moy and promote their teachings but are not TTCS..... 

All this is reason to educate yourself on the ins and outs of what ever org you are a part of so you can make your own sound choices and ask the right questions.

I have defended TTCS much here but at the same time, I ask questions too so I can be more aware of what I am getting and what I may be missing in TTCS.  

"It is better to open your eyes and say you don't understand than to close your eyes and say you don't believe" G.C.


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## oxy

East Winds said:


> IThe Xing Yi I was taught by the Society was what Oxy would call Taji Xing Yi!!!



Actually, to be technical about it, I wouldn't.

I don't use Taiji in the Taijibafa portmanteau as a pejorative. I use it to describe a lack of Liuhe and the injection of Taiji principles/techniques. I think LHBF is more complete than Taiji, but that doesn't mean I think Taiji is not good at all. I'm learning Taiji at work, now.

Judging by what you say and what others say about TTCS Xingyi (ie, no Santi, no Xingyi), calling it Taiji Xingyi would give TTCS Xingyi credibility.


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## East Winds

Oxy,

Sorry, I didn't mean to use the reference to you in any derogatory manner. I only meant to try an show that TTCS Xing Yi lacked an essential ingredient, without which it could not be truly considered to be Xing Yi. (You really would not want to see their Liu He Ba Fa!!!!)

Very best wishes


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## Myrmidon

*These videos are really cool:*

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO05iDDex4A&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Si6vxAQq__k&NR=1


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## mograph

East Winds said:


> (You really would not want to see their Liu He Ba Fa!!!!)



East Winds, could anybody at TTCS do decent Liuhebafa?


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## DaPoets

There is some really great Liuhebafa in the TTCS actually as it is the primary art that Master Moy Lin Shin had a desire to teach when he came to Canada in 1970.  Granted that those that live further away from Toronto may not be getting the active training needed to improve themselves with it but I have seen some great stuff.


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## mograph

Who were the best liuhebafa practitioners, DaPoets?


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## East Winds

mograph,

That is a question of course which I cannot answer. I can only talk of my own limited experience here in the UK. What I can say in relation to that is, that compared to what I was taught after I left the TTCS, the TTCS teaching was extremely low quality. Enough to say, that , how can you teach a martial art that contains no martial intent?

Very best wishes


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## mograph

Fair enough. Thanks, East Winds.


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## DaPoets

Yeah East Winds the more I hear of your experience in TTCS the more I understand why people from overseas come and stay at Orangeville for months at a time.  You can't get the level of instruction needed to really appreciate what TTCS has to offer unless you have a very experienced instructor.  My experience and yours are very different because Master Moy would call us all the time to come have dinner with him and the Toronto people, not even to mention the level of Tai Chi instruction we were (still are) getting due to our proximity to Toronto.


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## mograph

DaPoets, who did you see teach Liuhebafa (in Orangeville or Toronto) when Master Moy was alive?


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## DaPoets

well... Master Moy....
But people like Sean, Tony, and John are all extremely impressive.


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## taichiplayer

Ben Chung no longer teaches with the TTCS.  He is a founder and instructor with the Canadian Tai Chi Academy.  He still teaches in Toronto.  Web site is www.canadiantaichiacademy.org


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## DaPoets

There are a small number of these odd spin off groups that praise Master Moy Lin Shin as if he himself endorsed their group when that is not the case.  It's actually kinda sad that they teach Master Moy's Taoist Tai Chi, and then just call it Yang style...  Their students are really confused.  At least the TTCS students know that Master Moy's Tai chi is a hybrid of Yang and his own Taoist teachings...

Master Moy frequently went to China to see his teacher when ever he could... Since Ben Chung is doing his own thing and teaching Master Moy's Tai Chi, who does Ben Chung and his crew go to for training?  Nobody from TTCS is teaching him....


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## DaPoets

Also in a somewhat traditional manner I guess... Master Moy didn't teach anyone everything he knew, he spread it around to different people.  Even Tony Kwon only knows a large chunck of what Master Moy wanted to teach and he trained with him nearly every day for 28 years.  (Tony is my instructor)


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## mograph

DaPoets said:


> There are a small number of these odd spin off groups that praise Master Moy Lin Shin as if he himself endorsed their group when that is not the case.



I thought praising your late sifu was respectful? 



DaPoets said:


> It's actually kinda sad that they teach Master Moy's Taoist Tai Chi, and then just call it Yang style...  Their students are really confused.  At least the TTCS students know that Master Moy's Tai chi is a hybrid of Yang and his own Taoist teachings...



Outside the TTCS, it is a "modified Yang style set" or a variation of the Yang style set. Only the TTCS calls it "Taoist Tai Chi". Mr. Moy's modifications weren''t significant enough to warrant referring to the set as a unique style like Chen, Wu and Yang. Even Cheng Man-ching (you've heard of him?) referred to his set as "Yang Tai Chi in 37 Postures."



DaPoets said:


> Master Moy frequently went to China to see his teacher when ever he could... Since Ben Chung is doing his own thing and teaching Master Moy's Tai Chi, who does Ben Chung and his crew go to for training?  Nobody from TTCS is teaching him....



Where does Mr. Kwon go for training?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Outside the TTCS, it is a "modified Yang style set" or a variation of the Yang style set. Only the TTCS calls it "Taoist Tai Chi". Mr. Moy's modifications weren''t significant enough to warrant referring to the set as a unique style like Chen, Wu and Yang. Even Cheng Man-ching (you've heard of him?) referred to his set as "Yang Tai Chi in 37 Postures."


 
Exactly, it is, at least to me (a traditional Yang guy) modified Yang. And if you are talking to the Yang family they do not call the style of Cheng Manching Yang style either they call it Chang Manching style. I am guessing the Yang family would not call anything that TTCS does Yang style but I have not heard or read any comment by the Yang family on TTCS



mograph said:


> Where does Mr. Kwon go for training?


 
If I understand where you are going with this I feel this is a good question. There comes a time when you no longer need to go train with your sifu. My sifu has not trained with his sifu for many many years and he was allowed to go out on his own, per his sifu, prior to his sifus death. 

Just because someone no longer sees their sifu or another sifu for training is not necessarily a bad thing. And in some cases it can be a real good thing, names like Chen Wangting, Yang Luchan, Wu Yuxiang, Wu Jianquan Sun Lutang come to mind


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## East Winds

One of the things I object to with the TTCS and Moy's teachings is that he had the arrogance to believe that he could "improve" on a form synthesised by one of the all time great Masters. A quote from Gu Liuxin is _*"After Yang Cheng-fu went south, he began to explicitly emphasise the use of taijiquan in treating illness and protecting health"  *_What has Moy added to the Yang Family Taijiquan form that was not already put there by Yang Cheng-fu? 

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

The forms look obviously different, especially the stretching, hip placement, and intent of the movments, So I'm surprised at your question...  But to be honest that's odd that you call it arrogance when those that created new forms were not nessecarily "great masters" at the time, but because of what they created they were eventually considered "great masters".  A new form has to start from somewhere and because a form is new, it's going to be critisized and ripped apart by others as it's practice spreads.  It's the way of things I guess.

My strength, balance, endurance, agility, awareness, state of mind, are all on a much higher level now due to my intense Taoist Tai Chi practice for the last 6 months (12 years of doing it but pretty intense the last 6 months as I have more free time in my life now).  Now if I were practicing a more traditional form would I be improving even more?  Who's to say, and yeah perhaps since TTCS isn't the end all be all, but the bennifits are amazing.

About the Tony Question on who he trains with, he actually spoke about how much he practices last night and his own personal development, and he did just get back from traveling in China for nearly a month.  I didn't ask any question about it as it wasn't really the right time.  Perhaps next week.  It was a great class last night in Toronto though...  I'm pretty much there every Tuesday and the class is 2 - 3 hours long.



East Winds said:


> One of the things I object to with the TTCS and Moy's teachings is that he had the arrogance to believe that he could "improve" on a form synthesised by one of the all time great Masters. A quote from Gu Liuxin is _*"After Yang Cheng-fu went south, he began to explicitly emphasise the use of taijiquan in treating illness and protecting health" *_What has Moy added to the Yang Family Taijiquan form that was not already put there by Yang Cheng-fu?
> 
> Very best wishes


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## East Winds

DaPoets,

Thanks for your continued input to this board. However, like most members of the TTCS you are "looking through the wrong end of the telescope". Members of the Chen, Yang, Wu and Sun families who developed their respective forms were acknowledged _*by their peers*_ to be great masters. They didn't have to wait for it to happen.

_*"Now if I were practicing a more traditional form would I be improving even more"?. *_The simple answer is yes. By ignoring the martial (the Yang aspect if you like) you are ignoring 50% of Taiji. The TTCS emphasises the Yin aspect to the detriment of energy balance. Also I would be very happy to debate the merits of TTCS postures in relation to Traditional Yang Family postures, but that would perhaps better be placed on a new thread.

However I admire your fortitude in continuing to defend the TTCS in the face of such criticism. The unfortunate aspect is the continued regurgitation of TTCS propaganda.

Very best wishes


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## mograph

East Winds said:


> Also I would be very happy to debate the merits of TTCS postures in relation to Traditional Yang Family postures ...



As would I, since I'd like to know more about Yang style postures as an expression of the Tai Chi Classics. Possibly with the Wile translation as a basis?

- TTCS
- Yang
- Classics

Shall we start a new thread, East Winds?


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Possibly with the Wile translation as a basis?


 


I know of Pinyin (which is what I deal in) and Wade-Giles which if forced I can change Pinyin to and a Yale romanization systems which I know little about. 

But what is the Wile Translation? 

Or is that a translator that translated some text?


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## mograph

Sorry Xuesheng, I should have been more specific: I meant the translation by Douglas Wile in his book _Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty_. Here's the Amazon link:
http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Classics-Dynasty-Chinese-Philosophy/dp/079142653X

It contains both English (Wade-Giles, maybe) and Chinese text, so the subtleties of the text are made accessible to Chinese readers.

Or another book would be fine ...


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## East Winds

mograph,

Yes, that would be a good idea. I have Douglas Wile's book. Incidentally, another very book by Wile is "Tai Chi's Ancestors : The Making of an Internal Martial Art" " (ISBN 0-912059-04-4).

Very best wishes


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## DaPoets

Seems like an interesting book.  I'll have to read it.


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## Xue Sheng

mograph said:


> Sorry Xuesheng, I should have been more specific: I meant the translation by Douglas Wile in his book _Lost T'ai-chi Classics from the Late Ch'ing Dynasty_. Here's the Amazon link:
> http://www.amazon.com/Tai-Chi-Classics-Dynasty-Chinese-Philosophy/dp/079142653X
> 
> It contains both English (Wade-Giles, maybe) and Chinese text, so the subtleties of the text are made accessible to Chinese readers.
> 
> Or another book would be fine ...


 
Thanks.


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## jamelser

Hi All,

Interesting that I stumbled across this site (at this point in my life). I thought I would just add a few pennies worth of info on this topic. Sorry if I am long winded about this.

The essence of the training through the TTCS, FLK and GPLHA was that of tempering the body and taming the heart (dual cultivation) through physical training or meditation. Physical training could be seen as 'one' path to help the relief of suffering of sentient beings. 

The founder (Mr. Moy) was a monk, first, and used martial training (tai chi, lok hup) as a way to progress individuals development. Other ways of training or tempering were volunterism, meditation, Taoist/Buddhist rituals, understanding propriety, etc. He did have a profound understanding of the internals, and taught from the prospective of health and development. The organizations give an opportunity, on a broad global scale, to experience or understand this tradition. In the beginning of the organization, focus was on martial applications, but that focus receded and other directions took precedent. 

Does that mean the TTCS is a one stop shop......in my humble opinion, no.

I have seen many debates about the merits of the TTCS, it's tai chi or it's chi kung, and have come to the place that the it really doesn't matter. The TTCS has a place in the world and offers many things, as do other disciplines. The problem lies in the discussion of 'who's better' or 'whats missing'. I have heard this debate in both the TTCS and on these types of forums.

Human grouping causes us to segregate, define, place value, etc......where as the training that we all do, should melt those distinctions. Where can we see the value of all things regardless.


Small tangent...........

It is impossible to know the addicts pain, until we ourselves try to let go of our own attachments.

So....It really is impossible for a non-tai chi person to 'know' what tai chi is all about unless they do it. It really is impossible to know the value of what TTCS has to offer until you are immersed in it. It is impossible to know what another discipline has to offer until you are immersed in that training.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said all of that, after a certain point, there are some fundamental things that the TTCS does that places limits on progression. Some of these blocks are intentional and others are not. Some of them were pointed out in this post. If individuals are developed enough to see those blocks, and choose to circumvent them then, for the betterment of themselves, then yes, there are consequences, within the parameters of the TTCS. Just as similar to the Catholic church frowning upon a church leader practicing Buddhism. It may not be conducive  to an open learning process, but is probably necessary, in those groups minds, to the survival or purity of the organization. 


I trained for 13 years, in the TTCS learning as many of the disciplines and it's nuances as I could (including Lok Hup). I was immersed, passionate and open. I wholehearted supported the activities and contributed my time and energy. I progressed a lot and if I stayed, I could have probably learned more, except as I developed, I felt I needed a different perspective. In my mind, to be a better teacher, I felt I needed to learn other forms, other styles, to understand better. In the position that I was in, I would not have been afforded that option.


My point is that I personally had undergone, intense wonderful transformations and understanding through the TTCS. Many people have had these transformations through the TTCS. Unfortunately, I have seen discussion from people from other styles that play down, even cut down, these transformations. This is unfortunate. On the other side of the coin, the TTCS does exactly the same thing with it's members, in reducing or minimizing the effects of what other styles offer. This is also unfortunate. 


Again, this has been an interesting and timely post for me. I am now training with another group and I am learning tons from this other style. Some complimentary, some completely different. Interestingly enough, my instructor is happily taking instruction from me on lok hup ba fa. I have longed for this type of symbiotic relationship and it seems I have found it.


Sorry again for the long winded post. Just my 2 cents.

Regards,


J


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## taichiplayer

DaPoets said:


> There are a small number of these odd spin off groups that praise Master Moy Lin Shin as if he himself endorsed their group when that is not the case.
> 
> Actually that is not the case in my experience.   Any group I have talked to never claimed to be endorsed by Moy Lin Shin himself. They only say that they received training from him.
> 
> It's actually kinda sad that they teach Master Moy's Taoist Tai Chi, and then just call it Yang style...  Their students are really confused.  At least the TTCS students know that Master Moy's Tai chi is a hybrid of Yang and his own Taoist teachings...
> 
> I'm afraid you are somewhat misled here as well.  My experience is that most students know the lineage of their art.  What makes it difficult is that the TTCS has trademarked the name, so out of respect for the TTCS and of course the law of the land, they are prevented from using the words Taoist Tai Chi.  As a matter of fact, the opposite is quite true.  100% of the teachers taught by Master Moy that I have had the pleasure of knowing,  TTCS or non-TTCS have nothing but profound respect and gratitude for the man. In my book that is something we could all learn from.
> 
> 
> Master Moy frequently went to China to see his teacher when ever he could... Since Ben Chung is doing his own thing and teaching Master Moy's Tai Chi, who does Ben Chung and his crew go to for training?  Nobody from TTCS is teaching him....



I would also like to point out that this little tidbit is useless information. Of course he did.  I expect I will go back to my teacher from time to time as well. The important fact here is that there is no more Master Moy for any of these teachers to go back to.  So the whole idea is really quite pointless.  It doesn't make any difference whether you are a TTCS member or not.  Nobody can go back to the source any more, not even the TTCS.


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## mograph

taichiplayer said:


> Nobody can go back to the source any more, not even the TTCS.



When a master dies leaving more than one disciple, or without a clear disciple, there's bound to be a shift or a split. There's no guarantee that the organization remaining on the property after the split will give the best instruction. For that, one should look to the disciple(s), wherever they are, and if they exist.

But of course, taichiplayer is right. Nobody, even the disciples, can go back to the source if he has passed on. The disciples become the new source, one degree removed.


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## taichiplayer

mograph said:


> When a master dies leaving more than one disciple, or without a clear disciple, there's bound to be a shift or a split. There's no guarantee that the organization remaining on the property after the split will give the best instruction. For that, one should look to the disciple(s), wherever they are, and if they exist.
> 
> But of course, taichiplayer is right. Nobody, even the disciples, can go back to the source if he has passed on. The disciples become the new source, one degree removed.



I would like to make one clarification here. I mean no offense to TTCS.  I have had great instructors in and out of that organization and am eternally grateful for the basic training I received.  While I am no longer with TTCS, that is mainly due to the political climate that exists there and the outrageous fees they charge for training.  They have a wonderful facility and if you can find them, some fine instructors.  My path did not lead me in that direction.  That's it.  No other hidden meanings at all.


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## taichiplayer

I'd like to bring this thread back to the original topic of Lok Hup Ba Fa.

I find that the "what club you belong to thread" to be quite unproductive.

Has anyone read Paul Dillon's translation of Li Dongfengs Five Character Secrets?  It is published by YMAA and is not available from them at this time.

It is a really good read on the origins of Liuhebafa and I was wondering if there are anyone has some opinions or comments about the book?


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## mograph

Amazon seems to have Dillon's book.

I liked it, particularly the character-by-character translation. Dillon also includes a more polished English translation, with the caveat that it's just one possible translation, and that's fine. 

I think the text can be applied to any Chinese martial art. Sorry, I'd give a more in-depth review, but the book is out on loan right now.

Here's a review:
http://www.themartialist.com/0304/fivecharacter.htm


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## Formosa Neijia

taichiplayer said:


> I'd like to bring this thread back to the original topic of Lok Hup Ba Fa.
> 
> I find that the "what club you belong to thread" to be quite unproductive.
> 
> Has anyone read Paul Dillon's translation of Li Dongfengs Five Character Secrets?  It is published by YMAA and is not available from them at this time.
> 
> It is a really good read on the origins of Liuhebafa and I was wondering if there are anyone has some opinions or comments about the book?



I have it and it's good. The way he breaks down the Chinese is unique. You can really get a feel for the language. He gives multiple translations: literal, flowing, and then a commentary. Plus he gives the Chinese characters and pinyin.

It's a great book. Get it while you can.


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## DaPoets

I had said I would do this long ago but time got away from me...

The Chinese Five Word Song was created during the early Sung Dynasty by Li Tung Fung who supposedly learned Lok Hup Ba Fa from Chen Hsi-I, creator of Lok Hup.  This recent translation of the Chinese Five Word Song is very very good and writen by John Chung Li who learned Lok Hup Ba fa (along with Master Moy Lin Shin) from Liang Tzu-peng.  Liang Tzu-peng studied Lok Hup Ba Fa from famous Wu Yi Hui who was renounded for his Lok Hup.

Here is the link to this translation:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Chinese-Five-Word-Song/Li-Tung-Fung/e/9780974633602/?itm=1

**I am not trying to promote a sale of this book so moderators, please feel free to modify this post if needed.


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## DaPoets

I recently did the week long training in the 66 movements of Lok Hup Pa Fa as taught by the Taoist Tai Chi Society at the International Center in Orangeville Canada, and I have to say that the Chinese Five Word Song is a great compliment.  Plus with this translation and comentary writen by a fellow student of the developer of the Taoist Tai Chi Society, Master Moy Lin Shin, it added a bit of "close to homeness" to me personally as I used to study under Master Moy before his passing.


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## groundforce

Hi Dapoet:

Do you know if liuhebafa was modified by Master Moy?  And if so how much did he modify it from the original version.

Seems from what i have seen so far, that there is quite a few versionss of this style.

Thanks,
Miguel


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## mograph

Apparently, this is a clip of Mr. Moy's teacher, Liang Zipeng. Judging by this clip, Mr. Liang's style looks the same as Mr. Moy's Lok Hup, which features the same moves as Mr. Liang's, but less ... extreme. 
Mr. Moy's style uses higher stances, in a slower, more even tempo. The Lok Hup forward bow stance looks like the TTCS style bow stance.

How Mr. Liang's style came to be? I don't have a clue.

(And no, it's not likely you'll find a video of Mr. Moy doing Lok Hup on the web.)

If you want to join the TTCS for Lok Hup, first ask when Lok Hup classes are held.


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## groundforce

Hi Mograph:

Thanks again for the info.  The Standing form TTCS does not teach and that is the one that I wanted to learn.

So whether the form is 66 movements or a tai chi form.  At this point it doesn't really matter.  That is just the outer shell. 

The standing form is still the outer shell but I could use it to generate much more chi in a shorter period of time.  It is much more focus.

I may just have to do it the hard way and learn it from u tube. 

But you have been very very helpful.

Thanks Again,
Miguel


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