# Traffic Stop Gone Bad Video!



## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 11, 2008)

Definately some real world violence here and a firearm discharged several times.  One officer traffic stops always have a potential to go south.

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## Drac (Feb 11, 2008)

That's some scary stuff and the possibility exsists for it to occure at* ANY TIME*..There is no such thing as a *ROUTINE STOP...*


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## Bob Hubbard (Feb 11, 2008)

Damn. That's brutal!


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 11, 2008)

Drac said:


> That's some scary stuff and the possibility exsists for it to occure at* ANY TIME*..There is no such thing as a *ROUTINE STOP...*


 
Absolutely Drac so stay sharp and stay safe!


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

This is a really good, instructive video.  There are things I'm not addressing in an open forum; it's not so much that they're "cop secrets" as there's no need openly discussing them.  I am going to make a couple of points, though.  A beginning caveat: The officer did the best he could in the situation, and deserves every bit of credit for obeying rule 1: he went home at the end of the day!  I'm not second guessing him or arm-chair quarterbacking; this is meant to be a lessons learned, not "he should have!"

First -- if you carry a gun, remember that ANYWHERE you go, there is a gun.  YOU brought it; this applies to cops or civilian CCH.  It means that weapon retention is a vitally important skill to work on; notice that the offender here actually got the officer's gun -- which was, luckily jammed.

Second -- notice that the first tool the officer used after violence started was pepper spray... and it didn't work so good.  "You're gonna need more than that" the offender said.  Pepper spray is great -- but, like anything else, it's not 100% effective.  A determined offender can most definitely fight through it.  Hell... most of us had to fight through being sprayed in the academy!

Third, I'm not impressed with the officer's defensive tactics.  He moved straight back, and ended up in a shoving match sort of situation.  I don't know his training -- but to any of us here on MT, this probably screams for the need for additional, effective training.  And it should be a strong reminder to each of us to assess our training and practice; are WE prepared for a larger, tougher, trained opponent than the usual guys we run into?  Do we handle each situation as if it might become violent -- or are we complacent?  Yes -- I know I am sometimes complacent!  And I'll admit it.  I've shared before an account that shook me up:  One of my partners and I responded to a domestic (verbal only) which turned out to involve a suspect that she'd arrested for DUI just a few weeks before.  I'd backed her on that call, and he'd gone along as meek as a kitten.  Well... this time was different.  We both missed some signs, and when the suspect was ignoring us, she went to tap him on the shoulder.  He backfisted her, knocking her back.  I immediately moved in and introduced him to the sofa at some velocity, face first and got him restrained.  (It would have been the floor, but the sofa got in the way.)  Why'd it go bad?  We were complacent; we knew the guy, he'd been cooperative in the street... so we missed some signs.

Finally, and maybe most important, you see in both the offender and the cop great examples of the survivor mindset!  The cop never quit, never gave up trying, and remained amazingly calm and controlled.  The suspect kept going, even after being shot.  Remember -- you're never killed by one shot!  Never give up, never stop, never surrender!


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## Drac (Feb 11, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Absolutely Drac so stay sharp and stay safe!


 
Thanks Brian...And some folks wonder why you might see 2 or 3 cruisers on a traffic stop...


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## MA-Caver (Feb 11, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> <snip>
> Third, I'm not impressed with the officer's defensive tactics.  He moved straight back, and ended up in a shoving match sort of situation.  I don't know his training -- but to any of us here on MT, this probably screams for the need for additional, effective training.  And it should be a strong reminder to each of us to assess our training and practice; are WE prepared for a larger, tougher, trained opponent than the usual guys we run into?  Do we handle each situation as if it might become violent -- or are we complacent?
> Finally, and maybe most important, you see in both the offender and the cop great examples of the survivor mindset!  The cop never quit, never gave up trying, and remained amazingly calm and controlled.  The suspect kept going, even after being shot.  Remember -- you're never killed by one shot!  Never give up, never stop, never surrender!


Yes, while watching the video I too was wondering about the same things. I'm not a cop but can appreciate the dangers they face day in and day out. Made me wonder at this particular officer's H2H combat training. The suspect was indeed larger and likely sized up the situation while being put on the hood and getting searched. Probably had the thought in his mind somewhere along the lines of "screw this! I can take this guy!" and he tries. Thankfully he failed. 
1 shot _does_ kill (particularly in the head) but it takes longer if in the gut (untreated of course). Unfortunately one doesn't have the time to wait for that in a situation like this one. 
No the cop never did quit, but it didn't impress upon me that he had full command of the situation, even with an irate suspect (as observed) he was in "the survivor mindset" and that's not good because better options go out the window with that. He also ran away from rather towards his vehicle which could've given him protection and access to his radio (if not wearing one). I'll give him credit that he was probably just scared (on the inside) and went towards (or back) to the path of least resistance. 
Scary stuff to be sure.  

Hopefully this officer will seek to further his H2H training. Hopefully more officers will be/are doing the same.


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## Balrog (Feb 11, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> The suspect kept going, even after being shot. Remember -- you're never killed by one shot! Never give up, never stop, never surrender!


And there is an issue right there - he was hit by only one shot.  One has to ask why the officer did not put 3-4 rounds into the guys belly.  Yes, the weapon jammed, but one also has to ask if it jammed because of damage incurred after the second shot was fired and before the third was attempted.

But as was said earlier, armchair quarterbacking.....


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## theletch1 (Feb 11, 2008)

We've had several officers come through our aikido school.  The H2H training provided by the local departments is incredibly inadequate for the job at hand.  It amazed me to find that they have to re-qual with their side arm but get no continuing education in hand to hand.  In a world where every round down range from an officers weapon gets media attention and lawyers swarming like buzzards it amazes me that so many departments don't go heavy on the controlling of suspects with locks, pins and joint destruction.  I'm glad the officer in the video made it home in one piece.

And Drac, as Brian said stay sharp, stay safe.  And I'll add...thanks.


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## MA-Caver (Feb 11, 2008)

theletch1 said:


> We've had several officers come through our aikido school.  The H2H training provided by the local departments is incredibly inadequate for the job at hand.  It amazed me to find that they have to re-qual with their side arm but get no continuing education in hand to hand.  In a world where every round down range from an officers weapon gets media attention and lawyers swarming like buzzards it amazes me that so many departments don't go heavy on the controlling of suspects with locks, pins and joint destruction.  I'm glad the officer in the video made it home in one piece.
> 
> And Drac, as Brian said stay sharp, stay safe.  And I'll add...thanks.


Exactly what I was thinking because knowing the functions of Aikido and Hapkido being more in line with subduing your attacker/suspect these arts would be better suited for those in security and law enforcement. For bouncers and such other arts are probably better since they don't need to worry (as much) about coming under scrutiny for hitting a suspect as an officer would. But putting a joint lock on someone until they're better subdued with handcuffs and such sounds like a good idea. No matter how big a guy is, they're not going to argue with their ligaments and joints screaming "stop resisting!" 
The officer in the video had ample opportunities to perform a take-down maneuver with the suspect reaching out and grabbing him ... ah! (slaps own face) I'm arm-chair quarterbacking! I'll shut up.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

I'm going to start a separate thread on what cops are taught in DT, so I'll be brief here.

The simple reality is that out of a 6 month academy, DT is only a small part of the instruction, and has to include topics that don't really fit anywhere else but aren't H2H combat (like how to search a building, proper handcuffing techniques, or search procedures).  So, even the best academies only really provide a very quick and dirty course in H2H combat.


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## Makalakumu (Feb 11, 2008)

How much would have intensive grappling training helped the officer?  Something like a modified bjj program for LEOs?


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## arnisador (Feb 11, 2008)

upnorthkyosa said:


> How much would have intensive grappling training helped the officer?  Something like a modified bjj program for LEOs?



I think BJJ would surely have helped there, but he survived and that's a success!


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## Bigshadow (Feb 11, 2008)

That was pretty brutal!  It is unfortunate that the officer could have cleared his pistol and double tapped the attacker.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

Yeah... I can't help but think about the first malfunction drill... TAP - RACK - BANG! (if necessary).

H'mmm... A buddy of mine had to clear a jam while holding a ballistic shield; he tapped on the shield, used it to rack the slide, and got his shot off.  So... let's apply the principle! TAP on the goon's forehead.  RACK against his ears?  Maybe no need for a bang at that point!


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## MA-Caver (Feb 11, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Yeah... I can't help but think about the first malfunction drill... TAP - RACK - BANG! (if necessary).
> 
> H'mmm... A buddy of mine had to clear a jam while holding a ballistic shield; he tapped on the shield, used it to rack the slide, and got his shot off.  So... let's apply the principle! TAP on the goon's forehead.  RACK against his ears?  Maybe no need for a bang at that point!



Well that's the thing, watch the video again and you see that the suspect had tapped against the officer's head then the officer had racked against the suspect's head (or was it vice-versa) either way... by the time he (the officer) could've gone Bang was when Back-up arrived. Otherwise he was too busy keeping his *** from being kicked by a former heavy-weight boxer.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 11, 2008)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Definately some real world violence here and a firearm discharged several times.  One officer traffic stops always have a potential to go south...



Wow. Scary! After seeing cops get killed during routine traffic stops, I completely reconsidered my interest in law enforcement.


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## jks9199 (Feb 11, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> Wow. Scary! After seeing cops get killed during routine traffic stops, I completely reconsidered my interest in law enforcement.



Cops have the potential to be killed in everything they do.  Their job is to go towards danger; to go to the sound of the guns.  Cops make "routine" contact with people under the worst possible situations, and, in the US, there's always a gun there when a cop is there.  I've gone on calls that seemed to have no potential for violence, only to end up wrestling with someone...  I've seen someone who had never been even uncooperative suddenly attack one of my partners... and seen someone known for fighting and resisting go meek as a kitten.  You never know what's going to happen, yet, out of hundreds of traffic stops, Terry stops, and other contacts with people -- I've only had a handful of fights.  That's why complacency becomes such an easy trap.


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## blackxpress (Feb 12, 2008)

I too was impressed with the officer's seeming lack of any useful DT skills.  Unfortunately, most depts. don't require any ongoing H2H training.  I am not a LEO but have trained under two different Senseis (including my current one) who have both designed and taught LE self defense.  I know our tactics work and, had this officer trained where I train he would have been much better prepared to handle this situation without having to pull his sidearm.


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 12, 2008)

Drac said:


> That's some scary stuff and the possibility exsists for it to occure at* ANY TIME*..There is no such thing as a *ROUTINE STOP...*



If only he had some Verbal Judo, huh Drac?  :wink2:


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## Doc_Jude (Feb 12, 2008)

jks9199 said:


> Cops have the potential to be killed in everything they do.  Their job is to go towards danger; to go to the sound of the guns.  Cops make "routine" contact with people under the worst possible situations, and, in the US, there's always a gun there when a cop is there.  I've gone on calls that seemed to have no potential for violence, only to end up wrestling with someone...  I've seen someone who had never been even uncooperative suddenly attack one of my partners... and seen someone known for fighting and resisting go meek as a kitten.  You never know what's going to happen, yet, out of hundreds of traffic stops, Terry stops, and other contacts with people -- I've only had a handful of fights.  That's why complacency becomes such an easy trap.



Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of LEOs, but since my daughter was born I just can't put myself in harms way like that voluntarily.


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## Rich Parsons (Feb 12, 2008)

Drac said:


> Thanks Brian...And some folks wonder why you might see 2 or 3 cruisers on a traffic stop...



I understand it. Many see my size in the vehicle and call for a second vehicle. Be it for tail light out or what have you. 


A friend of mine is a police officer in a larger SE Mich City which makes the charts for violence. He made a comment a few years ago to me. "Rich, I like training with you and your half speed and half contact level. I have been hit on the street at a lighter level by those whose were trying to hurt me." His point was that the level of contact was good for his training as well.


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## jks9199 (Feb 13, 2008)

I routinely back up other officers on traffic stops, even if it's with a 90-year old grandma.  Why?  Because that grannie can apply 2 to 8 pounds pressure to a trigger just as easily as an 18 year old banger.  And because stupidity can happen anytime...  I don't have a link handy, but I'm sure many have seen the clip where the cop tells a woman "let's step over here in case a car hits us..."  just before a car blasts into his cruiser.  The threat that time wasn't the person he stopped...


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## Drac (Feb 13, 2008)

Doc_Jude said:


> If only he had some Verbal Judo, huh Drac? :wink2:


 

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2008)

Wow!  That certainly was an eye opener.  Now, its hard to know everything from a video, but you have to wonder why he officer made no attempt to call for backup sooner.  Not sure how long ago this clip was taken, but many of the portable radios have panic buttons on them.  Even if they can't talk into the mic and ask for help, the dispatcher will know their location and be able to send them a backup.  

The cops in the dept. that I dispatch for are all very good about backing each other up.  Its always better to be on the safe side.


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## Archangel M (Feb 13, 2008)

The "panic button" on many radios is this tiny recessed thing [to avoid accidental activation], not the easiest thing to do when fine motor skill goes bye-bye. and when its fight time, sometimes calling on the radio takes a backseat.

Regarding this situation, I cant be too critical about the fight itself, the guy survived a fight with a guy who drastically outsized him. Sometimes the real world doesnt work out the way you envision things no matter how much training you have. However I am critical about the decision to take a guy like that out of a car without back-up.


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## MJS (Feb 13, 2008)

Archangel M said:


> The "panic button" on many radios is this tiny recessed thing [to avoid accidental activation], not the easiest thing to do when fine motor skill goes bye-bye. and when its fight time, sometimes calling on the radio takes a backseat.
> 
> Regarding this situation, I cant be too critical about the fight itself, the guy survived a fight with a guy who drastically outsized him. Sometimes the real world doesnt work out the way you envision things no matter how much training you have. However I am critical about the decision to take a guy like that out of a car without back-up.


 
I'll have to take a look at the radios the cops use where I work to see the exact position and size of this button, but IMO, it can't be that small and out of reach because they're constantly hitting it by accident.  

Even something such as keying up the mic a few times would be enough to draw attention.  While I admit that in the heat of something, your mind is going a mile a minute, but looking at that video, there were a few times that would have allowed the officer to call or make some signal for help.

For myself, I usually make it a habit to check on them within a certain time frame when they're on a stop.  

All in all, I'm glad that the officer in this clip came out ok.


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## Guardian (Feb 19, 2008)

Drac said:


> Thanks Brian...And some folks wonder why you might see 2 or 3 cruisers on a traffic stop...


 
*Exactly, better safe then sorry.  I have to give the little guy credit as stated here, didn't give up.  Sometimes, the bad guy is just bigger and stronger, training yes, an absolute for staying safe no, your mind is that.*


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## Guardian (Feb 19, 2008)

Drac said:


> Thanks Brian...And some folks wonder why you might see 2 or 3 cruisers on a traffic stop...


 
*Exactly, better safe then sorry. I have to give the little guy credit as stated here, didn't give up. Sometimes, the bad guy is just bigger and stronger, training yes, an absolute for staying safe no, your mind is that.*


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