# Ontario prostitution laws could be lifted Saturday



## Scott T (Nov 22, 2010)

> Date: Monday Nov. 22, 2010 12:31 PM ET
> 
> Lawyers for the federal government said that Canada is on the brink of launching an "unprecedented" social experiment if three key prostitution laws are lifted this Saturday.
> The government is appearing in the Ontario Court of Justice on Monday to seek a delay in the end of those laws.
> ...


 Now employees of the TSA will have a place to go for thier vacations.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2010)

Road trip.


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## CoryKS (Nov 22, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Road trip.


 
The argument in the final sentence has been proven.  With a quickness.


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## Scott T (Nov 22, 2010)

coryks said:


> the argument in the final sentence has been proven. With a quickness.


 rofl!


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## crushing (Nov 22, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Road trip.


 

Detroit area people have been depressed lately, but now they see the red light at the end of the Windsor Tunnel.  Gotta spend those brand new GM profits somewhere!


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## oaktree (Nov 22, 2010)

Great way to make some extra money for the holidays. I am just saying


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 22, 2010)

Generally, when prostitution is legal, the women are much better protected and work in a much safer environment. Their job will become more respectable and comes out of the criminal influence sphere. And they'll pay taxes. And because it is legal, prices will go down due to increased competition (which is good for clients).

Everybody wins.


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## CoryKS (Nov 22, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Generally, when prostitution is legal, the women are much better protected and work in a much safer environment. Their job will become more respectable and comes out of the criminal influence sphere. And they'll pay taxes. And because it is legal, prices will go down due to increased competition (which is good for clients).
> 
> Everybody wins.


 
Everybody except non-professional women, that is.  If men have an low-cost alternative that doesn't involve going to jail, I think you will see some pretty major changes in the social dynamic.  Just sayin'.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2010)

In all honesty, my wife won't let me go.  Said something about divorce, carving my heart out, and removing a few other parts too. So, I'll have to just stick to taking pictures.

As to the TSA...well, some of them aren't eligible to enter Canada...those criminal records n all that.

As to the idea of legalizing prostitution, I'm all for it.  As Carlin said, selling is legal, and ****ing is legal, so why isn't selling ****ing legal.


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 22, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> In all honesty, my wife won't let me go. Said something about divorce, carving my heart out, and removing a few other parts too. So, I'll have to just stick to taking pictures.


 
Bob....you did say you where coming up here one weekend to photograph our iaido practice.....right...?


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## Scott T (Nov 22, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> In all honesty, my wife won't let me go. Said something about divorce, carving my heart out, and removing a few other parts too. So, I'll have to just stick to taking pictures.


Removal of heart: check
Other parts removed: check
Divorce: Overkill?

:mst:


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 22, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Bob....you did say you where coming up here one weekend to photograph our iaido practice.....right...?


Yep.  Have an issue with my car finance company...seems they have a thing about taking my car out of NY without their permission. Trying to figure that stupidity out. Then I'll be setting things up. Have a project I'll need to talk to you about too once I get my alibi, I mean car issue straight.


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## Blade96 (Nov 25, 2010)

Honestly I don't see why people here are making jokes about an activity that exploits women and children.  (well maybe I do. Most of the people in this thread making the jokes are men. Surprise.)  If it is legalized you'll see a whole lot more of that. Most people do not choose a job like that they take it cause they are out of options. I had a debate with Evil Sandan over it a bunch of times. He had used escort service and yes he was married when he did it so he cheated on his wife, and he was making justifications for it and said No it isnt any exploitation going on. He said he even talked about it with some of them and the women had jobs, he said they didnt have to do this. I said 'Ok, how much money was they makin at these other jobs?' He said 'Crap wages' He said University students do this,and I said yeah but they prey on the students who need money to pay off tuition and they cant do it with the wages at their other jobs. I said Nuff said. I rest my case. But the stupid four letter C word still didnt get it. (and probably didnt want to, having used it himself of course he wouldnt wanna see anything wrong in it)


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 25, 2010)

If prostitution is out of the criminal environment, it will become a job much like any other massage therapist. In many European countries it is perfectly legal, and you don't see more abuse or exploitation.

And -perhaps- this is the only way for some women to make real money.
However, that is their job. If I end up without a job, my job options would include different jobs, ranging from burger flipper to gay prostitute. The choice would be mine and mine alone. If I voluntarily choose for the high pay, then noone should feel guilty about that.

Similarly, those women are not facing a choice that others aren't facing either. They choose that job, others won't. The only problems that are actual problems are caused by the criminality of prostitution. Change that and you stop the exploitation as much as possible.

I really invite you to look at countries where it is legal before jumping to conclusions.
Personally I think any single man should be able to visit a prostitue if he so likes. It's called consenting adults, and really no different from a guy 'buying' a girlfriend with gifts, like hugh heffner or the late husband of the late Anna Nicole Smith.

And yes, I am a male.
And I think having sex for pay is really no different from getting a back massage for pay.
Infidelity is morally wrong inasmuch as it is the breaking of a vow you made, but plenty of single men use the services of a prostitute.


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## Ken Morgan (Nov 25, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> If prostitution is out of the criminal environment, it will become a job much like any other massage therapist. In many European countries it is perfectly legal, and you don't see more abuse or exploitation.
> 
> And -perhaps- this is the only way for some women to make real money.
> However, that is their job. If I end up without a job, my job options would include different jobs, ranging from burger flipper to gay prostitute. The choice would be mine and mine alone. If I voluntarily choose for the high pay, then noone should feel guilty about that.
> ...


 
Agreed.

You should not have the Crown interfere in what an individual wants to do with their lives, provided that action does not harm themselves or other. Marriage, gay marriage, polygamy, and prostitution are all contracts between consenting adults. Again that is always the big word with all of them, CONSENTING. There can be no coercion or it is not a valid contract, people need to be there of their own free will, be of age and the proper mental capacity to give that consent. 

Dont kid yourself men and women both use escort services.

The issue with polygamy and prostitution is exploitation. That of course is wrong and the people who force anyone, to do anything against their own free will should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yep.  Have an issue with my car finance company...seems they have a thing about taking my car out of NY without their permission. Trying to figure that stupidity out. Then I'll be setting things up. Have a project I'll need to talk to you about too once I get my alibi, I mean car issue straight.


Off topic -- but what the hell?  You leasing or buying?


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Off topic -- but what the hell?  You leasing or buying?


Buying. Its an interesting clause I'm trying to get them to explain to me. Course, I've already been to GA and back but there's no BP or customs on that route yet.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 25, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Honestly I don't see why people here are making jokes about an activity that exploits women and children.  (well maybe I do. Most of the people in this thread making the jokes are men. Surprise.)  If it is legalized you'll see a whole lot more of that. Most people do not choose a job like that they take it cause they are out of options. I had a debate with Evil Sandan over it a bunch of times. He had used escort service and yes he was married when he did it so he cheated on his wife, and he was making justifications for it and said No it isnt any exploitation going on. He said he even talked about it with some of them and the women had jobs, he said they didnt have to do this. I said 'Ok, how much money was they makin at these other jobs?' He said 'Crap wages' He said University students do this,and I said yeah but they prey on the students who need money to pay off tuition and they cant do it with the wages at their other jobs. I said Nuff said. I rest my case. But the stupid four letter C word still didnt get it. (and probably didnt want to, having used it himself of course he wouldnt wanna see anything wrong in it)


I've talked to a few escorts. All of them said the same thing, this is their choice, the money is a lot better than what they could make flipping a burger and they were picky over who they saw. (Note, I've never used a service professional's services and most likely never will. These were also models/dancers who I talked with at meets).

Some of them do it because they are forced into it. Sex slavery is still big business. I have issues with that.
Some of them do it to feed drug habits. Again, I have issues with that.
Some do it because they like the job. I don't have any issues with that.

I fully support legalizing it, regulating it, and making it safer. Tax revenues would increase as well as safety for both parties.  For example, I believe that in Nevada the brothel workers must be tested for STD's regularly. The average streetwalker is never tested.  

I'd be interested in data about such things from areas where it is currently legal.


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## jks9199 (Nov 25, 2010)

Most financing agreements I've read require you to maintain the car in good condition, and the like.  And I've seen lease agreements limit travel outside certain areas, and most rental agreements limit travel as well as drivers... but I've never noted a limit in loan agreement like that.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 25, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I fully support legalizing it, regulating it, and making it safer. Tax revenues would increase as well as safety for both parties.  For example, I believe that in Nevada the brothel workers must be tested for STD's regularly. The average streetwalker is never tested.
> 
> I'd be interested in data about such things from areas where it is currently legal.



There is a reality series about the brothels in pahrump.
From what I saw, the girls are safe, get to decide what they want and don't want to do, regularly see the doc, get benefits, etc...

And each and every one of them has voluntarly chosen that profession. Most of them do it for the money, in a context where they are respected and protected. And some of them just enjoy sex. There was one girl who said that she had en enormous sex drive. By doing this, she was doing something she enjoys and would be doing anyway, and getting paid big bucks for it.

In Belgium it is not abnormal to see street side brothels. Noone seems to mind.
I have also heard that it lowers sex related crimes but I have no immediate data to back that up. I'll see what I can find.

The general concensus here is that it is not immoral to visit a prostitute, and that they should be treated with the respect due any other working person. Most women would not choose to do it, but have absolutely no issues with others who do. I would lie if I said I'd would not mind having my daughters end up in that profession. But if they should do so out of choice instead of necessity, in a way that is not unsafe, then I think there are worse things than that.


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## David43515 (Nov 25, 2010)

jks9199 said:


> Off topic -- but what the hell? You leasing or buying?


 
Actually, not as of topic as one might think.

Ya got it. Ya sell it. Ya still got it. The ultimate business model.


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## Scott T (Nov 25, 2010)

David43515 said:


> Actually, not as of topic as one might think.
> 
> Ya got it. Ya sell it. Ya still got it. The ultimate business model.


 :lol:


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## Sukerkin (Nov 25, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I had a debate with Evil Sandan over it a bunch of times. He had used escort service



This bit is not 'wrong'.



Blade96 said:


> and yes he was married when he did it so he cheated on his wife



This bit is.

For me the rights and wrongs of this profession all hinge upon the true freedom of choice of the women involved.  

If it is something they choose to do, largely because it is a way of making huge amounts of money in a short time (speaking of the high end 'respectable' end of the scale here), then I have no quibble with their choice.  It's a heck of a lot more honest and moral than working in the Finance sector.

If they are coerced or overtly exploited, then that is something I do have a problem with.

Sadly, a great majority fall into the latter category rather than the former .


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Generally, when prostitution is legal, the women are much better protected and work in a much safer environment. Their job will become more respectable and comes out of the criminal influence sphere. And they'll pay taxes. And because it is legal, prices will go down due to increased competition (which is good for clients).
> 
> *Everybody wins.*



No they dont. What you are suggesting is not for an end to conditions that force a woman to sexualize herself and sell her body but for better conditions within her exploitation.




Bruno@MT said:


> And -perhaps- this is the only way for some women to make real money.



You're telling me that the only real power/making real money for some women is between their legs?  I do not buy that. and it sounds like a cop out to me.



Ken Morgan said:


> Don&#8217;t kid yourself men and women both use escort services.



You cannot speak of woman and men johns in the same breath. The number of woman johns as opposed to men using women for sex.....Nonono. Can't speak of em in the same sentence. Men are using women most of the time. Who's doing it? It hardly aint women doing most of the sex buying.



Bob Hubbard said:


> I've talked to a few escorts. All of them said the same thing, this is their choice, the money is a lot better than what they could make flipping a burger and they were picky over who they saw. (Note, I've never used a service professional's services and most likely never will. These were also models/dancers who I talked with at meets).
> .



Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.



Sukerkin said:


> This bit is not 'wrong'.



Its considered morally wrong by most of the world. In fact, it can also give an insight into people's character, for example how they see women or people in general.


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## Brother John (Nov 27, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Road trip.


 SHOTGUN!!!!!!!!


( everyone remember, I called it first )

Your Brother (buckle up)
John


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.


But it is a choice.  In some cases they do turn don "traditional" jobs for sex jobs that pay more.

Ok, Danni Ashe.  Arguably one of the most downloaded women on the internet. Runs a porn empire she started. Does solo and G/G for pay. Not prostitution, but a porn star which some say is the same thing.
Carol Cox, who claims similar titles. Runs a porn business out of Quebec. Does it all. 
There are more examples, including the gal who gave the TSA a scare when she went through in shears, but porn isn't prostitution by my definition.
They all do share the fact they chose these lives, over 'normal' jobs. They also aren't your 'doped up druggie" stereotypes.

The women at the Bunny Ranch in Nevada all look to be there of their own accord, no guns to head, etc.  Now, would some of them prefer to make $75k a year sitting 8 hrs a day, 5 days a week behind a desk rather than working less hours? Maybe. Maybe not.

There are women who chose to be prostitutes. They like the money, they like the independence, they like sex. 
There are women who are forced to be prostitutes. They literally have guns to their heads.
One is a crime, one is not.

But I'm a man. I admit, I like women, like sex, and often let my little brain think for me.

I'll let the women talk now:


> After the triage, the relentlessly cheerful Ms. Sandrelli smiles and shrugs. Working at the centre, run by a group of ex-prostitutes called Prostitution Alternatives Counselling and Education (PACE), means "14 hour days," she says.
> 
> "It's endless." In this neighbourhood, hookers work around the clock. The homeless shuffle about. Addicts shoot up in a park across the street, leaving needles scattered like dead leaves.
> 
> ...


http://www.missingpeople.net/do_some_women_really_choose-june_9,_2002.htm

As I said, I've talked to some of the gals who choose it. They like the money, the freedom and the independence. They should be allowed to continue.

The ones forced into it...should be helped, not criminalized.


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men. 

People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.


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## Scott T (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men.
> 
> People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.


 Male prostitutes/escorts also exist, and in growing numbers. Do you feel the same way about them? I mean, exploited or sexualized.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I'll say again, I have doubts about the people who are into that type of thing saying it is a real choice and there is not exploitation going on. Of course they wouldn't wanna see anything wrong in it! They don't wanna see anything wrong in it! Same as I would have the doubts about men saying it, and I'll say again, the people who typed in here are men.
> 
> People who do prostitution to go through university are being used and exploited. They havent got a real choice. Either its that or working at mcdonalds which wouldnt pay off the student loan. And its notable that the jobs that give women the big bucks, like the prostitutions, are often the ones which reinforce female stereotypes or sexualize women in some way.


Look, I admit, I'm a man.  Least last time I checked when it was warmer, could be different today, I dunno.

But.

I'm ok with gays, support their rights, etc.
But I'm not gay, not gayly inclined, etc.

I support legalization of pot.
But I don't smoke, never have, and most likely never will.

I believe a woman (or man) should be free to do what they want to do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone.  The individual, male or female, who chooses to exchange sexual pleasure (be it on film, video or through mutual contact) for profit in my opinion should be legally protected, not persecuted.  It's a job, same as flipping a burger or being a CEO. Just as you pay less for a McD burger, the 'fast food hooker' charges less for eh, whateva.  You pay much more for a premium burger, the high priced escort who specializes in NYS Governors will charge much more.

No one made the university gal choose to do ******** over burger flipping, other than the same cash vs time decision all of us make when deciding between 2 different jobs.  One gal I spoke to specifically said it left her more time for her studies.

So are you saying we need to bump up burger flippers pay checks to $1,500 a week for 10 hrs work so it;s fair?

Life isn't fair.  Frack, I get paid less than minimum wage for running MT, I'd love to make what I'm worth.  Who wouldn't?  But life doesn't work that way.  To some degree, we're all whores. Who among us wouldn't choose a fast easy buck over long hours at min wage?  I build websites, take photos, advise and consult. Ashley Dupre makes a lot more cash than I do, and works a much shorter day. You think she should give that up and do my jobs? Hell, I'll trade places with her for a year. I could get MT a new server even.  

I make all these comments as someone who in all honesty has never paid for sex, nor paid for companionship, and never will. I personally don't like the idea either, however I support these peoples right to earn a living by the means of their choice.

And unless you're locked in a room, your visa and papers taken, a gun to your head, you have a choice. The great majority of escorts, brothel workers (in the US anyway) and average streetwalker chose this profession.  Those who do it so pay for addictions, need help, not prosecution.

I'm a man who thinks prostitution should be legal, and those who are forced into it helped, those who force others into it punished, and those who do it by choice left to safely ply their trade.


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

I am not arguing that the person who sells their body should be prosecuted. I'm saying the pimp and the trick. 

And one doesnt necessarily have to have a gun to their head or be locked in a room before you can say they are not freely choosing things.

P.S. and some peep neg repped me for my 'gender comments' which are true btw. Why should i get that from a person who won't even give their name (positive reps give their name, neg ones don't, but i am not surprised about that)


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## Scott T (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I am not arguing that the person who sells their body should be prosecuted. I'm saying the pimp and the trick.
> 
> And one doesnt necessarily have to have a gun to their head or be locked in a room before you can say they are not freely choosing things.


 Let's work on a basic premise here:

Do you believe, under any circumstances, that a person can willingly and without coercion become a prostitute?


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Then it isnt a choice. It is the illusion of having a choice. If you have to take the sex job because thats the only way you can make good money that isnt choice. Give her the option of the nice job that pays good money or, the sex job that pays good money. and if she still chooses the escort job, THAT would be a choice.



Yes well, by that definition, I can only choose to do my job if I also had the alternative of getting paid the same for flipping burgers. And what you are saying is that since noone is offering me to pay me that amount for flipping burgers, I didn't 'really' choose to become a systems engineer?

Hey, I could earn much more by becoming a male prostitute.
But I didn't do that. I chose to become a systems engineer. MY choice.
If I had chosen to become a male prostitute, that would have been MY choice as well.
Choice doesn;t have to be between equal propositions.
Choice is between what is there.




Blade96 said:


> Its considered morally wrong by most of the world. In fact, it can also give an insight into people's character, for example how they see women or people in general.



I have the utmost respect for women. But that does not mean I think it is wrong for them to become prostitute, or that it is wrong to visit one.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2010)

Ok @Blade: I suppose you think it is wrong for people to have sex for pay.
So how about having sex for presents, the way many good looking women choose for (the trophy wives)?
How about people having sex for free out of wedlock?

If I go to  massage therapist for my back (I haven't yet needed one, but for the sake of the argument) it is ok to get servicce for pay without caring at all about the reasons why that person chose to become a massage therapist.

And suddenly, if the massage involves something other than my back, I am a swine? That don't fly. If they choose out of their free will to do something that will earn them several times what I make, then what is wrong with that?

Men want / need sex.
That is not a sin.
If another consenting adult wants to provide it, then that is not a sin either.
The only 'sin' would be for the person who broke his vows.
But that has nothing to do with money changing hands, and the person who would do that would also try to get it for free from a mistress if he didn't / wouldn't / couldn't get it in a busines transaction.


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

Scott T said:


> Let's work on a basic premise here:
> 
> Do you believe, under any circumstances, that a person can willingly and without coercion become a prostitute?



Sure. If they have access to  jobs that'll give them the good pay and working hours they need (time for studies like Bob said and money to help them get through school) where they wouldn't have to supplement their earnings with this degrading work, if they really didnt need this but choose it anyways, then yes. They chose it.

But if you look at it, as I said to the sandan, he thought of the escort service people as choosing their jobs. Not really, when I asked him about the salary/job hours at their other job and he admitted it was crap. Not much of a choice they made.

Industries like this see, they love university students (who need the money, else they most likely wouldnt do this kind of work most of them) Some years ago a club (Sirens I believe) advertised on the back of our university students agenda books something like 'two women preforming' something like that. Our students' union collected all the books with the university population's help and that advertising was banned as exploitation and degradation of women.

I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?

I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.


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## Bruno@MT (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?



The same choice that men have. Except their services are less in demand.



Blade96 said:


> I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.



Yes. Sure. We all want that. Good money for decent hours and good benefits.
But that doesn't happen, now does it?
Who is supposed to give us those job? Santa?

So if that doesn't happen, we all have to get through life as best as we can.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade, this is clearly something you are firm minded on and you speak with the certitude of someone who has encountered experiences in real life that have shaped you opinions (indeed, I do recall you mentioning before that you have known people who have been through very bad times with drugs and prostituion).   

So after this I shall not be adding any more into this mix as I do not wish to seem to be gainsaying you.  

I don't believe anyone here would dispute that women forced into the sex trade would not have anything good to say about it.  I would also agree with you that there are different degrees of 'forced', some more overt than others.  

As with any 'industry', the way out of the shadows is to protect the workers from exploitation and give them a way to air grievances that works.  Keeping prostitution illegal ensures that bad things will happen to those that work in it and they will have no recourse.

I suspect that you might be thinking how could I possibly know anything  about it 'cos I'm a man?  Or maybe you suspect that I am speaking in  favour of it just because I am a man?  I can only assure you that, in  terms of my own moral compass, it is not something I favour women doing  (or blokes for that matter).  However, as I spoke of above, keeping it illegal does make things better, it makes things worse.  It's the same view I hold on currently illegal drugs.

A final point is that there are those who do not fit your view on this subject viz those that are not victims.  

To a large extent, I confess my views come through being informed on the subject by having known women who have chosen this trade or it's ancilliaries.  I shared a house with a pair of 'Exotic Dancers', as we used to call them over here in Britain.  They were both friends of mine at university and found it much easier to make a decent augmentation to their grants through their looks rather than bar-work et al.

More than that, I have known well one who used to make a tidy sum in the very profession we have been addressing in this thread.

She didn't go into it because anyone made her, she did it because she was partly curious to see if she could but mainly because she made a bundle of cash for doing something she enjoyed.  When she tired of it, she quit and never looked back.

To reiterate, I don't think anyone here is disagreeing with you about those women who *are* victims.  But I think that is another discussion.


EDIT:  Ah, I see I took far too long formulating the above.  It's sort of become redundant .


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## Scott T (Nov 27, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Sure. If they have access to jobs that'll give them the good pay and working hours they need (time for studies like Bob said and money to help them get through school) where they wouldn't have to supplement their earnings with this degrading work, if they really didnt need this but choose it anyways, then yes. They chose it.
> 
> But if you look at it, as I said to the sandan, he thought of the escort service people as choosing their jobs. Not really, when I asked him about the salary/job hours at their other job and he admitted it was crap. Not much of a choice they made.


without knowing what their job is, it's difficult to make that judgment.



> Industries like this see, they love university students (who need the money, else they most likely wouldnt do this kind of work most of them) Some years ago a club (Sirens I believe) advertised on the back of our university students agenda books something like 'two women preforming' something like that. Our students' union collected all the books with the university population's help and that advertising was banned as exploitation and degradation of women.


 Good for you. 



> I have also known university students who did stuff like prostitution/stripping etc and they said it wasnt anything they chose to do but they couldnt pay their high tuition if they just flipped burgers. What kind of a 'choice' is that?
> 
> I think, what needs to be done instead of this legalization thing, is to give people access to the kinds of job money and job hours they need so they wouldnt have to do this kind of work like prostitution.


The last thing we need in this country is yet another entitlement program. It's not society's responsibility to put everyone to work. Prostitution to pay tuition is a choice, don't kid yourself. There are other options such as student loans at both the federal and provincial level that a job can enhance. I did a few things that I wasn't proud of for supplementary income during college, but none of them involved removing my clothes.


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

Bruno@MT said:


> Yes. Sure. We all want that. Good money for decent hours and good benefits.
> But that doesn't happen, now does it?
> Who is supposed to give us those job? Santa?
> 
> So if that doesn't happen, we all have to get through life as best as we can.



Sure. We all have to get through life as best we can. Ok, and I admit. I'm a leftist. So I see it as exploitation and that results from capitalism and sexism. Yeah I throw in the gender part and don't apologize for it. But cause we have to go through life the best we can, that doesnt mean what is happening with the prostitution isnt exploitation/sexism. and that we shouldnt try to change it. 

And men don't 'need' sex. They just want it. We need food, we need water. But we don't 'need' sex.  Thats what the sandan said to me when I wasn't 'putting out' That he needed sex and couldnt live without it. And dont like the idea of sex for presents either. That sandan gave me everything - I got a new gi. I had a kitten. I was given shotokan training that brought me up to orange belt level. as long as I was staying with him and giving him sex. and doing what he wanted. Thats all he wanted - a sex slave and someone to live with so he wouldnt be alone. and control. It was all bribes. and as soon as I leave him he is doing the same to this new girl he got. (should have seen him last night - making a show out of it helping this new girl with her shotokan , the exact same he did to me - and ignoring me. Soon as I was gone I am now the dirt under his feet. Yes he came back to the dojo - and i had to train next to him.) I am not a prostitute - but I sure felt like one. And its one of the reasons I dumped him after 5 months.  Even though i am alone ever since it sure feels better than him!! I myself would flip burgers over being a prostitute even if it does pay the money. I wouldnt degrade myself in such a fashion and be used like a piece of meat.

 I was given presents for sex and companionship. Thats how I know what it is like.

And it isnt really free will. As I said and youjust said, it is money that is influencing what job the person does. The burgers or the prostitute.  It is not entirely free will in your brain, of your mind. And I know all about that too.

I have a father who has been unhappy his whole life because he had to quit university and work at a job that paid the bills instead of being able to do what he loves.  The reason was that he had two small kids. Me and my brother. And my mom, his wife. Circumstances dictated what job he did. He did not make the  choice freely of his own mind and brain.

And I think very often, most of the time, people do not choose their jobs freely. Even leave the prostitution out of it.  Circumstances make the choice. Economic. Social. Whatever. But very often it is not free will of their own mind and brain.


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

Yesss, Knew people who went through bad times, I myself was abused and exploited.  It is because of those I think I developed a very strong social conscience so that when I speak (or type! lol) it is with passion. But I like how I was treated here in this thread, we really debate stuff like whether prostitution is really 'chosen' without the stuff that a mod would warn or ban people for. 

Reminds me why I joined this forum. I love it here and the people are basically nice. 

I also think it is good to debate a issue such as this. Its important to get the ideas out. And I have some different ones than were presented in the thread, so I decided to share them. And debate a little. 

I think we each made our views known though. You made your point, and  I made mine. Maybe no need to debate more.


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## Sukerkin (Nov 27, 2010)

I miss the long-term Edit available to Moderators!  I misplaced a word in my last post that wrecked the meaning.  Hoprefully it was still clear from context but what I meant to say (underlined for emphasis of the change) was:

 "However, as I spoke of above, keeping it illegal doesn't make things  better, it makes things worse.  It's the same view I hold on currently  illegal drugs."


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2010)

Scott T said:


> I did a few things that I wasn't proud of for supplementary income during college, but none of them involved removing my clothes.



And many a God and Goddess were thanked as a result.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 27, 2010)

Men and women "need" sex. It's one of those 'built in' things. Over time, some of us learn to control desire, some suppress it, and some give it unabashed free reign.  Some use it as a weapon, a bribe, a reward. Others enjoy it while others still feel bad about it.  We have guilt, shame, blame beaten into us.  Little boys are told touching themselves is bad. That they'll go blind, that they'll break it or stretch it out (if only that were true....). Women are told they must submit, must not feel pleasure or else they are sluts. Told it's their place.

In short my friend, we're told a lot of ****ed up **** that screws us up real bad for a long time, until we can get out **** straight again.


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## Scott T (Nov 27, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> And many a God and Goddess were thanked as a result.


 :lol::bangahead:


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## Sukerkin (Nov 27, 2010)

Aye, Bob, so very true.  

About the only culture I can think of that got it sort of right as far as human sexuality was concerned was the Anglo-Saxons.

That is ironic considering everyone thinks that British (and therefore American) culture is Anglo-Saxon (it's largely Norman by the way, so blame the French (well, Frenchy-Vikings at least)) :lol:.  

Of course we are looking back at them through a 1500 year telescope, so who knows what learned speculation has gotten wrong with regard to their comparitively relaxed and equal views on sex and sexuality?


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## Blade96 (Nov 27, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> "However, as I spoke of above, keeping it illegal doesn't make things  better, it makes things worse.  It's the same view I hold on currently  illegal drugs."



Aye, thats true for many things. Some of those drugs like Mary Juana, for example.  Other drugs, they could keep em banned until Kingdom Come, for all I care.  and like prohibition. Now that caused more problems than it solved.

I still agree with punishing pimps and tricks though.



Bob Hubbard said:


> while others still feel bad about it.  We have guilt, shame, blame beaten into us.  Little boys are told touching themselves is bad. That they'll go blind, that they'll break it or stretch it out (if only that were true....). Women are told they must submit, must not feel pleasure or else they are sluts. Told it's their place.
> 
> In short my friend, we're told a lot of ****ed up **** that screws us up real bad for a long time, until we can get out **** straight again.



Hoy! agreed! Thats disgusting! I'd smack my brother silly if he told my niece (his daughter) that! Or told his son if he has one, those things!


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## Makalakumu (Nov 27, 2010)

I don't know if this point has been made already, but I'll type it anyways.  If it's sexist to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body when it comes to abortion, isn't it sexist to tell a woman what she can and cannot do with her body when it comes to prostitution?

For me, it's like saying, "we need to protect women from all of the evil men out there because they are too weak to make decisions for themselves."

If you believe that women are capable and strong, then they can decide what they want to use their bodies for.  If you want to control how a woman uses her body, perhaps the underlying motive is sexist in nature.


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## Brother John (Nov 28, 2010)

A Question for Blade96:

You may have already answered this before, I don't know. IF so, please feel free to just direct me there...

Why is it, do you think, that legalization and regulation of prostitution would not significanty reduce the 'exploitive' aspects of prostitution? Nothing would ever stop it totally, I think that that's just a given. But why wouldn't legalization and regulation reduce the exploitive aspects? 

Also: If capitolism plays such a major role in causing women to chose the 'sex trade' (as some call it), then why has prostitution always flourished in both communist and socialist goverments? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that.

Thank you

Your Brother
John


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## Ramirez (Nov 28, 2010)

Ken Morgan said:


> Dont kid yourself men and women both use escort services.



men, women, law enforcement officers, accountants, engineers , politicians, etc.  it runs through all strata of society,  might as well legalize , tax and control it.


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2010)

Being a prostitute isn't illegal here however soliciting for custom is as is living off immoral earnings (pimping) pandering and running a brothel. 
A major problem here isn't prositition as such but people trafficking, girls are being brought from Eastern Europe and Asia after being told there are legitimate jobs for them but they are in fact being held as sex workers against their will. A lot of police time and effort goes into tracking down and rescuing these girls
These days prostitutes aren't considered criminals, the police will rarely arrest them unless they are making a nuisance of themselves. they will arrest their 'customers' and kerb crawlers. There are a many efforts made to help women out of the trade, for many reasons though some women will chose to stay in the trade. Like alcoholics, battered women etc you can only help so far and unless they make a move to help themselves there's little you can do.

We have a type of prostitute here and I won't call them anything else, who goes out with footballers predominately then sells their stories of sex etc to the newspapers for vast sums. This is something that is very much the female's choice.

The business of selling sex for money and/or favours is as old as mankind. I can't see it going away anytime soon whatever legislation is enacted.

The subject of men and women needing sex is a very basic one, despite our outer sophisication etc we are still driven by our instincts to breed, the same as every other living organism. We dress it up as all sorts of things, love, 'being close' etc etc but the truth is we do need sex. Some may prefer to remain celibate, some may be promiscuous or been put off by bad experiences etc but the basic human need for sex is in all of us.


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## Blade96 (Nov 28, 2010)

Brother John said:


> A Question for Blade96:
> 
> You may have already answered this before, I don't know. IF so, please feel free to just direct me there...
> 
> Why is it, do you think, that legalization and regulation of prostitution would not significanty reduce the 'exploitive' aspects of prostitution? Nothing would ever stop it totally, I think that that's just a given. But why wouldn't legalization and regulation reduce the exploitive aspects?



Because just legalizing it wouldnt get rid of the fact it objectifies people, men and women. Mostly women.  Sex objects.  And just legalizing it is not helping create an end to the conditions that force a woman to sell her body (the student who has to choose it because they cant make good enough money any other way)



			
				john said:
			
		

> Also: If capitolism plays such a major role in causing women to chose the 'sex trade' (as some call it), then why has prostitution always flourished in both communist and socialist goverments? I'd be interested to know your thoughts on that.



Communism/socialism is an ideal. I am a left winger and while other countries have and had aspects of it in them the fact is true communism/socialism only exists as an idea.



Tez3 said:


> The subject of men and women needing sex is a very basic one, despite our outer sophisication etc we are still driven by our instincts to breed, the same as every other living organism. We dress it up as all sorts of things, love, 'being close' etc etc but the truth is we do need sex. Some may prefer to remain celibate, some may be promiscuous or been put off by bad experiences etc but the basic human need for sex is in all of us.



I do not believe that. No one 'needs' sex. Not one of us will die if we never had sex again. therefore not a 'need'


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Because just legalizing it wouldnt get rid of the fact it objectifies people, men and women. Mostly women. Sex objects. And just legalizing it is not helping create an end to the conditions that force a woman to sell her body (the student who has to choose it because they cant make good enough money any other way)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No we won't die if we don't have sex ever again but the human race *will* certainly die out. That's the imperative in our genes, the need to perpetuate the species, all living things have it. Don't let your feelings on sex confuse you as to why we procreate. You can call it what you like, sex, mating, making love but the reason behind it is our instinct telling us to 'go forth and multiply', the fact we have effective contraceptives and the way we romantise sex often makes us forget why we 'indulge' in this most basic of human activities.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 28, 2010)

I do it cuz it feels good. And to keep my prostate in good order.  
LOL


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I do it cuz it feels good. And to keep my prostate in good order.
> LOL


 
Perhaps a little too much info there Bob lol!

As humans we are lucky that it feels good, it doesn't for female cats and they _still_ do it! As I said it's a fundamental instinct, it's there whether you decide to have sex or not. Ask the women who find their body clock is telling them to have a baby even though they never wanted kids before!


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 28, 2010)

How's that song go?
"You and me baby we ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel"

Sadly, I was watching Deadliest Catch at the time, so I thought that meant putting the wife in a cage and tossing her into icy waters. She thought otherwise and now I'm in pain.  Stupid song.


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2010)

Blade, do you consider the young women who sleep with footballers and celebrities just to be able to sell their stories to the media and become celebrities themselves as victims or as good business women?

The subject of prostitution is more complex than a man using a woman, there's many reason why a man will go to a prostitute, some nothing to do with sex and there's many reasons why a woman will sell sex. Closing your eyes to the fact that some women like to do this and that some men will buy sex or companionship is to close your eyes to what humans are, a very complex and sometimes bewildering species. Basing your ideas on only what you have experienced means you can't be open to others ideas and arguments. Nothing about prostitution is in black and white, there's many shades of colours in there.


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## Blade96 (Nov 28, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Blade, do you consider the young women who sleep with footballers and celebrities just to be able to sell their stories to the media and become celebrities themselves as victims or as good business women?



LOL you don't wanna know what I think of them 

They aint attracted to the people, they like the status. They're users. And I hate users.


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## Tez3 (Nov 28, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> LOL you don't wanna know what I think of them
> 
> They aint attracted to the people, they like the status. They're users. And I hate users.


 
But they aren't victims are they? They are selling their bodies for money, they don't pretend to be attracted to the person, they say they want the money and the celebrity. It's their choice to do what they do, they sell sex for money.


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## crushing (Nov 28, 2010)

Which human resources aren't objectified in their respective professions or careers?


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## Makalakumu (Nov 28, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Because just legalizing it wouldnt get rid of the fact it objectifies people, men and women. Mostly women.  Sex objects.  And just legalizing it is not helping create an end to the conditions that force a woman to sell her body (the student who has to choose it because they cant make good enough money any other way)



What if a woman wants to be a sex object in order to make money?  What if she has amazing skill in ******** and men are willing to pay 100 bucks a blow?  She could open a business, train other women who are also willing to learn, and then open a chain where the product is known.  Mama-san is now a millionaire for her skills and now her apprentices have a skill that they can expand into a successful business if they choose.  

Who are you to say that these women cannot do this with their bodies if they choose?  Who are you to claim that "society forces" them to make that choice?  The language you use above actually diminishes the intelligence and capability of women.  It lumps them all together and pastes them with a label of second class, weak, and in need of protection.  

THAT is sexism.

Trusting a woman to be intelligent and capable is truly empowering.  Letting a woman claim her freedom rather then forcing her to bow down to some Victorian diminished ideal is empowering.  The whole concept of telling anyone what they can and cannot do with their bodies rests on the premise that one party is fundamentally weak and needs to be told.

In the end, every party goes home happy.  Men pay for an amazing sexual treat and look forward to the next one and the women are well compensated for their craft.  I think about the women like the one Elliot Spitzer consulted for services.  He paid her $5000 dollars a night.  Damn!  If you think this woman is not capable or undeserving of this wealth, what does that say about how you view women?

Lastly, one of my best friends in college was born with a beautiful body, an ear for music and beat, and a freaky mind that could drive men wild.  She willingly stripped at the best clubs in town and was pulling down $3000 dollars in a good week.  She was so hot that she could charge several hundred dollars for a lapdance and leave a man in exquisite frustration, about ready to tear his chair apart.  She used the money she earned to pay for her education at an elite private school.  She bought several houses and rents them out and works the taxes so she hardly has to pay anything.  And she outright owns a studio where she gives the best private music lessons in the town where she lives.  I admire this woman for her skill and capability.  She doesn't need anyone to protect her from other people's imagined weakness.


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## Brother John (Nov 28, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Because just legalizing it wouldnt get rid of the fact it objectifies people, men and women. Mostly women. Sex objects. And just legalizing it is not helping create an end to the conditions that force a woman to sell her body (the student who has to choose it because they cant make good enough money any other way)


Human's objectify humans.  Period. Men look at a very physically attractive woman and (most often) their biological urges move them to think of them for things other than their personality and what they contribute to society. Simple truth. Women look at men in a fitted suit, gold watch, stepping out of a nice new BMW and their mind (often) goes toward things other than their personality or what they contribute to society. Simple truth. It's not a feature of any one political vantage point or societal norm, it's as much a part of who we are as being bipedal and omnivorous. HOWEVER: the amount of time we spend at one end or another of this continuum has a LOT to say for our character. I'd have to say that it's probably true that those who frequent brothels or employ a prostitute are at the FAR end of the continuum and look at their ........but to say that they ALWAYS and ONLY look at ALL women in such a manner would be painting with TOO broad a brush I think. If you think about it, there's a LOT more to our sexual urges than mere sensory gratification. Psychologically speaking, sex...and everything having to do with it, is one of the most complex and multifacited aspects of our nature. Companionship, sense of self worth, fantasy, acceptance, vulnerability, trust....etc. The list could go on to challenge even the bandwidth of MT. When the many needs that Sex satisfies/gratifies aren't met for a long period of time....the psychological NEED for sex intensifies a LOT. I know that you've expressed your opinion that "Sex" is not a "Need"...but you've done so on a purely biological basis, that it's cessation would not bring on death. Remember: the neglect of needs does NOT always result in the destruction of the organism as a whole. I think it's very telling that Abraham Maslow, the primary mover in the founding of Humanistic Psychology, put "Sex" on his "Heirarchy of Needs". Here is a CUT & PASTE from a page discussing this Heirarchy:


> 1. *Biological and Physiological needs* - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, *sex*, sleep, etc.


 http://www.futurehi.net/docs/Maslows_Hierarchy.html
So....according to the premier leader of this branch of science, SEX is as much a fundamental, 1st level "NEED" as air.     I find that very interesting. I don't have any interest in parsing words with you as to what does or does not constitute a NEED....
but I'll let you tell the world that Maslow was wrong on a fundamental level.




> Communism/socialism is an ideal. I am a left winger and while other countries have and had aspects of it in them the fact is true communism/socialism only exists as an idea.


 I hope it doesn't sound to rude to say so, but ....so what?
Every political stance or position is nothing more than an idea that gets acted on, with more or less integrity/effect. Communism/Socialism/Fascism/Democracy/Republicanism...
any of it.
So, the question remains.....if a large portion of the fault in the western hemisphere can be placed (as you did) on the idea of capitolism 
what's to be blamed for prostitution flourishing under it's opposite???

MY answer: THey're both ideas run by HUMANS. 

Your Brother
John


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## CoryKS (Nov 28, 2010)

So, were they?  Lifted Saturday, that is.


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## Scott T (Nov 28, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> So, were they? Lifted Saturday, that is.


 http://www.thestar.com/news/article/897750--no-prostitution-free-for-all-this-weekend


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## teekin (Nov 29, 2010)

Blade, dear I lived with 2 call girls. No one held a gun to their heads. They were both young, pretty, and very very fun to be around. They worked 3-4 nights a week, had regulars they saw and some new guys too but did the job because of the money. It allowed them the freedom to live the lifestyle they wanted, They Wanted. I choose to work 6 days a week and 8x the hours becasue that's who I was. I also didn't like being touched. But the girls choose it. If the girls were able to ply their trade legally it would have been a lot safer. A bad date who decided to get rough would go to jail not just rely on street justice to send a message. The gangs and pimps would be out, the 14 year old sniffers would be a rarity, the girls who are beaten and bought and sold like dogs would have no value and would fade away. Sex is allways going to be for sale as there there will allways be demand. It's that damn biological imperative thing. It's not called the oldest proffesion for nothing. I'd rather see it legalised than pushed further underground. It's not the men that suffer when the cops crack down, you know that don't you?

lori


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## Blade96 (Nov 29, 2010)

Wait a minute, I do not think that not wanting to see this disgusting thing legalized and admitting the exploitation and objectifying that's in this means I am diminishing anybody's intelligence and capabilities. I also dont believe helping women and people in general become sex workers is empowering, Its disempowering.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 29, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> Wait a minute, I do not think that not wanting to see this disgusting thing legalized and admitting the exploitation and objectifying that's in this means I am diminishing anybody's intelligence and capabilities. I also dont believe helping women and people in general become sex workers is empowering, Its disempowering.



Exploitation and objectification are in the eyes of the beholder and they can also just be tools of good marketing.  If a woman chooses to do this, knowing the risks and benefits, who are you to say that she is not empowering herself and must somehow be protected from herself by banning her choice?  The underlying premise is that women are weak and must be protected.  Why do you think that most prostitution laws come out of heavily patriarchal and sexist religions?  IMO, the philosophy inherit in both is consistent with Original Sin.  

If you think selling your body for money is gross, fine, don't do it.  Your choice empowers you.  If a woman has a top shelf body she wants to sell for $5000 to a customer of her choosing, that choice empowers her...because it's hers.  The moment you try to control her choice, you fall into the old fashioned sexist traps.  Sexual freedoms are related to a host of other freedoms women have had to fight for.  Just think about it.


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## teekin (Nov 29, 2010)

Blade Duck, your heart is in the right place but the world is much more shades of grey than black and white. It is telling that a substantial portion of the money the girls made went to feed addictions that bought their psychies relief from the demons that haunted them, albiet temporary. The men used the women and the women used the men. Call it Symbiotic or Parasatic, semantics won't stop prostitution.  I care that the women who engage in this trade either through their own choice or nessessity are as safe as possible. I also want the low life, scum sucking parasitic pimps to be Obsolete! Legalising it would go a long long way to make this happen.

lori


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2010)

History shows that there's many women who've used their bodies to gain power, wealth or whatever they wanted and that they have done this willingly. There's many different ways of prostituting oneself. Women have always married for money, in the Victorian age it was common for young wealthy American women to marry into the impoverished British aristocracy. These were often not 'love' matches but an exchange, albeit where the man receives the money but the woman gains a title. It _was_ done for gain though. 
Courtesans have been common throughout history as well, in some places gaining respectablilty and certainly a lot of power. Royalty and rulers have always had their mistresses, a habit that continues to this day in many places. Money may not change hands but privilege and good living certainly comes with this 'position'.  

Selling sex for money isn't the worse thing one can do, it's often at least an honest exchange. As many of us have been saying there's no absolutes here, it is not black and white, it's naive to think so. There's a need to get rid of pimps, the drug dealers etc and there's a need NOT to criminalise the women who for whatever reason sell their company or sex.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 30, 2010)

There was some Roman Empress who used to head down to the brothels and compete with the whores to see who could satisfy the most men.  Don't recall her name but I heard she was quite good at what she did.


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## Scott T (Nov 30, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> There was some Roman Empress who used to head down to the brothels and compete with the whores to see who could satisfy the most men. Don't recall her name but I heard she was quite good at what she did.


Messalina. Supposedly had a record of finishing off 25 men in 24 hours.

As the term used was 'satisfying', I'm assuming that means multiple times with each partner.


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## Makalakumu (Nov 30, 2010)

Tez3 said:


> Selling sex for money isn't the worse thing one can do, it's often at least an honest exchange.



This point bears repeating.  All to often in our society, we transact with all kinds of underlying fraud.  Trading sex for money doesn't have to harm anyone.  It becomes harmful when it is done on the black market however.


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## CoryKS (Nov 30, 2010)

maunakumu said:


> This point bears repeating. All to often in our society, we transact with all kinds of underlying fraud. Trading sex for money doesn't have to harm anyone. It becomes harmful when it is done on the black market however.


 
Not so much "harm", but it will most likely have consequences.

Let's say that they repeal the prostitution laws. It's licensed, taxed, regulated for safety, etc. Supply lowers the cost to a reasonable price. For the price comparable to that of a typical night out, men can write a check and do their thing without legal or moral recrimination. What are the effects on the dating environment? How does this affect the behavior of men who no longer need be concerned about getting a woman to accept him? How does this affect the behavior of women who are no longer the gatekeepers to something that men want very much? 

I suspect that much of the high-minded talk about "exploitation" and "objectification" are mere smoke-screens to hide the fear that, absent the need for physical gratification, men's attention to non-professional women will wane. Whether it actually will, I don't know. IIUC, there are countries in Europe where this is legal. I think maybe The Netherlands? Maybe our European contributors might be able to tell us what effect if any it might have on social dynamics.


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## Tez3 (Nov 30, 2010)

I work on the biggest army garrison in Europe, and believe it or not we have almost no prostitutes working here and none visible certainly. The reason for this is because of the way people are these days it's easy to have a one night stand. The girls are as happy with this type of arrangement as the lads. I'm not going to comment on the morality or the consequences of one night stands other than saying it's not my thing but those concerned don't seem bothered by it.
Cory, I don't think the guys here see sex the way you suggested but I think we are maybe more open about it here. No one worries about being accepted etc, thats what alcohol is for, you got out, get drunk, have a curry or kebab then a shag and go home. That's the norm here, if you're unlucky or lucky you get a fight too, that's night out in a british town or city.
Prostitutes are legal here as long as you don't kerb crawl for them, it doesn't affect dating etc. Having sex will someone you'd paid to do with you isn't what most men are looking for, the type of man that used prostitutes when it's illegal are still the ones using them when it's not. The demographic doesn't change.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 30, 2010)

Could just go the Japanese route, marry a RealDoll.


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## Scott T (Nov 30, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Could just go the Japanese route, marry a RealDoll.


LMAO!

I'll go you one further

(from 2008)



> By: Stefania Moretti, CTV.ca News
> Date: Sat. Jun. 28 2008 7:16 AM ET
> 
> Sex not as exciting as it used to be? Getting turned on may be as easy as flicking a switch on your lifelike programmable robot.
> ...


 Heh. I'll take Six!

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/SciTech/20080626/robot_love_080626/


I wonder if his wife's name is prototype LB-33?

Oh, and those realDolls? H.O.T.


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## Bob Hubbard (Nov 30, 2010)

The Japanese dolls are even better.  One guy in Japan owns about 100+ of them I saw.

Ok, what do sex-dolls have to do with prostitution?  

Lonely men in Japan who are too shy or socially inept to date, turn to dolls for 'companionship', often in similar ways as men (and women) in the US/Canada turn to 'workers' for their needs. The major unifying point is again that need for sex.  Keep prostitution illegal, people will still look for outlets. Legalize it, and you can monitor and control it somewhat.


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## Scott T (Nov 30, 2010)

Hell, I'd pimp out a few fembots!


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## Blade96 (Dec 1, 2010)

guess i done my bit here.......

six pages of a discussion and a nice little debate.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 1, 2010)

**wonders how much trouble he'd get into to suggesting a Girls of MartialTalk swimwear calender.....or a Guys of MT bikini calender....*


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## Sukerkin (Dec 1, 2010)

Aye, Blade, it has been a productive discourse I do agree.  Some very imteresting points of view to ponder :nods:.

As to Bob's idea, whilst there are indeed some lovely examples of human kind, male and female, amongst our membership, it cannot be gainsayed that many of them have spouses.  Now some of those spouses might be of the mind-set to 'share' but I'll bet that some are not :lol:.


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## Blade96 (Dec 1, 2010)

bob is funny


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 1, 2010)

blade96 said:


> bob is funny


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## CoryKS (Dec 1, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> **wonders how much trouble he'd get into to suggesting a Girls of MartialTalk swimwear calender.....or a Guys of MT bikini calender....*


 
Well, I'll wear the banana hammock but don't expect me to shave my back.  Winter's coming, and I need that extra layer.


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## CanuckMA (Dec 1, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> Well, I'll wear the banana hammock but don't expect me to shave my back. Winter's coming, and I need that extra layer.


 

**Reaches for the bleach to blot out a visaul that could cost a fortune in therapy.


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## CoryKS (Dec 2, 2010)

CanuckMA said:


> **Reaches for the bleach to blot out a visaul that could cost a fortune in therapy.


 
hehe.  Wanna hear about my mole?


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## crushing (Dec 2, 2010)

CoryKS said:


> hehe. Wanna hear about my mole?


 
Please!  No one wants to hear about your mole, or Richard Gere's gerbil for that matter!


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## Nomad (Dec 2, 2010)

My wife wouldn't mind!  

In college (the year before we met), she lent out a bunch of her teeny tiny bikinis for a bikini photo shoot around campus for the engineering paper.  Having seen some of the bikinis, it's fairly shameful that the *guys* fit into them... then again, it was February in Ontario, Canada.  At least, that was their excuse


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## Nomad (Dec 2, 2010)

*Ontario prostitution laws remain, for now*

Here's an interesting point from the female judge who initially ruled the existing laws unconstitutional:



> "I have found that the law as it stands is currently contributing to danger faced by prostitutes," Himel wrote after spending a year sifting through 25,000 pages of evidence.
> 
> "By increasing the risk of harm to street prostitutes, the communicating law is simply too high a price to pay for the alleviation of social nuisance."



However, the laws will remain in place pending appeal.


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## teekin (Dec 2, 2010)

Another little wrench is the fact that some men, well OK lots of men, are willing to pay for certain pleasures that are not normally on the menu. Pesonally I am of the mindset "who I am I to Judge" but I am also aware that I am in the minority in this regard. Once again, supply and demand.

lori


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 3, 2010)

I like how you put that. "certain pleasures that are not normally on the menu."


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## Makalakumu (Dec 3, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I like how you put that. "certain pleasures that are not normally on the menu."



The free market in action...


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## Brother John (Dec 3, 2010)

Blade96 said:


> guess i done my bit here......


 
Was wondering if you'd mind answering my questions I posted in post #60. Must have missed'm. 
Thanks

Your Brother
John


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## Blade96 (Dec 3, 2010)

Brother John said:


> Was wondering if you'd mind answering my questions I posted in post #60. *Must have missed'm.*
> Thanks
> 
> Your Brother
> John



i did (i blushed) sorry...

I don't buy that sex is as much of a need as air and should be placed in the same category as that guy placed it. So yeah. i disagree with him.

as for capitalism and prostitution, i didnt say its entirely rooted in capitalism its also rooted in sexism as well. but you're right of course they're ideas made by HUMANS.

 I'll always believe prostitution is disgusting and i wouldnt legalize it.


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## granfire (Dec 3, 2010)

hmm, dig a bit into the history of prostitution...it is interesting.

You also have to consider that at times marriage was a privilege. The couple had to prove they were able to afford offspring. 

It is the oldest profession of the world...let's face it, guys need it...


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## teekin (Dec 3, 2010)

granfire said:


> hmm, dig a bit into the history of prostitution...it is interesting.
> 
> You also have to consider that at times marriage was a privilege. The couple had to prove they were able to afford offspring.
> 
> It is the oldest profession of the world...*let's face it, guys need it*...


 
Need? Need? Now that is a Whole new discussion and a different can or worms entirley, isn't it?  There are "Needs" and Drives and there are "Wants" and there's where the free market comes in.  You may need to eat but as far as I know there is No biological advantage in having an off menu happy meal with asian twins dressed in red patten leather thigh high stillettos and PVC bondage gear. But if you want to and can afford it . . . . . but No you don't Need to. 

I think as this is an open all ages forum I''l stop there.

lori


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## granfire (Dec 3, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Need? Need? Now that is a Whole new discussion and a different can or worms entirley, isn't it?  There are "Needs" and Drives and there are "Wants" and there's where the free market comes in.  You may need to eat but as far as I know there is No biological advantage in *having an off menu happy meal with asian twins dressed in red patten leather thigh high stillettos and PVC bondage gear*. But if you want to and can afford it . . . . . but No you don't Need to.
> 
> I think as this is an open all ages forum I''l stop there.
> 
> lori



ROFLMAO!!!

No, seriously... I am crying I am laughing so hard! :lfao:

Maybe that part is not a need...but the result of it...


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## teekin (Dec 4, 2010)

Brother John said:


> Was wondering if you'd mind answering my questions I posted in post #60. Must have missed'm.
> Thanks
> 
> Your Brother
> John


 
John, how about debating Me on this one? If a guy says he "needs" sex like he needs air and quoted Maslow to me I'd bloody wipe the floor with him!  ( funny, none has tried that line on me yet ) Just curious but have you read Maslow's published works? Can you understand how this relates to Frueds "Toward Death"? Being that all organisms are seeking to relieve tension or stress.( Reaching towards a "0" state, the ultimate "0" state being, well, death )  That is why Maslow includes sex as a primary need. Because it creates tension.  Know how you can relieve sexual tension? Vasaline and a Hussler!

 If you want to bring the psyche into it, go to Harlow or Frueds later works. Maslow thinks you're a reptile. 

lori


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## Bruno@MT (Dec 4, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> John, how about debating Me on this one? If a guy says he "needs" sex like he needs air and quoted Maslow to me I'd bloody wipe the floor with him!  ( funny, none has tried that line on me yet ) Just curious but have you read Maslow's published works? Can you understand how this relates to Frueds "Toward Death"? Being that all organisms are seeking to relieve tension or stress.( Reaching towards a "0" state, the ultimate "0" state being, well, death )  That is why Maslow includes sex as a primary need. Because it creates tension.  Know how you can relieve sexual tension? Vasaline and a Hussler!
> 
> If you want to bring the psyche into it, go to Harlow or Frueds later works. Maslow thinks you're a reptile.
> 
> lori



Interesting.

Imo (which is admittedly not based on extensive experience) this is only true for the physical component, not the emotional part. That part is not relieved at all by that, or visiting a prostitute. You can only relieve both when having sex with the woman (or man) you love. One without the other makes for an incomplete whole.

That is also why I think hustler (and most porn) is boring as hell. The images are purely mechanical depictions, devoid of even the smallest hint of emotion or affection. ymmv of course.


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## Brother John (Dec 4, 2010)

I think that Bruno is pretty close to the mark. 

There are other things that biological drives that make sexual expression a need, in my opinion. I do not think that sex with a prostitute is a viable 'expression' that would meet this need. I think it's a case of 'Looking for love in all the wrong places'...but that humanity is rife with that kind of 'wrongness', to the point that it almost defines us. 

I don't think that Maslow looks at humans as reptiles, but perhaps not having read ALL of his works I've missed important parts. Please direct me if that's the case, love to be enlightened. He's not really my favorite theorist, but I enjoyed reading what I have of his and those that've followed his theories of Humanistic Psychology. Honestly I think that the idea of "Humanism" and that of thinking of mankind as 'reptiles' sounds dichotomous, but I've been wrong before. Seeing as how his psychologies lynch-pin is "Self Actualization" and "Peak Experiences".....and I don't know many reptiles that seek self actualization.   
I know that "Wikipedia" is NOT the end all / be all of academic level research, but if ANYONE wants to get a slight handle on what Abraham Maslow's theories DO resemeble, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham_Maslow  it does not resemble snake handling. :-D
I even think that Dr. Maslow would be VERY against the idea of prostitution as being a viable means of meeting a humans NEED for sex. He was all about meaningful context, and the context of monetary transaction for human contact....would probably send him up the wall. 
ALL I'm saying regarding him, as applies in this discussion, is that a very prominent 20th century leader in Psychology and human drives makes it plain that humans have a foundational NEED for sex. 

Prostitution is no more a viable solution to a 'sex need' than an inflatable doll is a suitable or satisfying surogate for human interaction. 

I'm not arguing FOR the legalization of prostitution. 
I'm just saying that sex is a need.

Your Brother
John


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2010)

I don't care what anyone says...I do need "*having an off menu happy meal with asian twins dressed in red patten leather thigh high stillettos and PVC bondage gear"* but my mean wife won't let me have it. I tried holding my breath til I turned blue, but all she said was "batteries".  I knew then that I could never compete against something powered by Briggs n Stratton.


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## Blade96 (Dec 4, 2010)

bob knows how to make me laugh :uhyeah:


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## Brother John (Dec 4, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I don't care what anyone says...I do need "*having an off menu happy meal with asian twins dressed in red patten leather thigh high stillettos and PVC bondage gear"* but my mean wife won't let me have it. I tried holding my breath til I turned blue, but all she said was "batteries". I knew then that I could never compete against something powered by Briggs n Stratton.


 
What man can compete with power-tools?

Your Brother
The Energizer Bunny-Wanabe 
John


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## teekin (Dec 4, 2010)

Brother John, see, I knew you delved into the Wiki for that Maslow. The Maslow I know is from studying the actual published works, not just the_ interpretations_ that are on Wiki. If you look at the raw data Maslow's experiments generated and the evolution of Maslow's hypothosis over time as he followed other Behaviorists experiments and studied their conclusions you'd have better idea why I say leave the Psyche OUT when speaking of Maslow. If you want to talk about behavoirists remember the Grand Daddy of all behavoirists is Pavlov. The idea remains the same, except this time when I ring the bell instead of a cooked prime rib, the reward, while still warm and moist, is a bit more Raw. 

 If you want to bring emotion into this you can't quote Behaviorists. You need to go to the Humanists. Don't Wiki Harlow. Read Harlow. ( I know, who has time to actually read a book anymore. :shrug: )

lori


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## teekin (Dec 4, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I don't care what anyone says...I do need "*having an off menu happy meal with asian twins dressed in red patten leather thigh high stillettos and PVC bondage gear"* but my mean wife won't let me have it. I tried holding my breath til I turned blue, but all she said was "batteries". I knew then that I could never compete against something powered by Briggs n Stratton.


 
Her toys know how to talk dirty to her? Cooooooolllllll!

lori


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Her toys know how to talk dirty to her? Cooooooolllllll!
> 
> lori


No, I think it has to do with they listen and never interrupt and never contradict and never try to fix things.  I could be wrong.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 4, 2010)

Nothing with batteries is ever going to replace thirty years of guitar playing ... 

...

...

{looks innocent}

I reckon we're straying away from the OP a bit now mind you {entertaining as it is }.


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## granfire (Dec 4, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I reckon we're straying away from the OP a bit now mind you {entertaining as it is }.



I dunno, the boss is leading the way....


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## Sukerkin (Dec 4, 2010)

:chuckles:  Aye he does that sometimes, especially if he's feeling naughty after watching certain AC/DC videos .


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## The Last Legionary (Dec 4, 2010)

You people need to stop following fat men playing flutes. 
Especially when they couldn't carry a tune in a bucket.


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2010)

Yeah, guess I tangent things a bit. Sorry.


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## granfire (Dec 4, 2010)

Bob Hubbard said:


> Yeah, guess I tangent things a bit. Sorry.


OFF WITH HIS HEAD!




:lfao:


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## The Last Legionary (Dec 4, 2010)

Well then how is he ever gonna complete the deal with the hookers?


OH!  You mean the one on his shoulders!  Better idea, easier target.

:rofl:


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 4, 2010)

Somewhat back on topic, the menu at the Moonlight Bunny Ranch is an interesting read.


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## Blade96 (Dec 4, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> I reckon we're straying away from the OP a bit now mind you {entertaining as it is



this thread might have gotten boring without me


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## Brother John (Dec 5, 2010)

Grendel308 said:


> Brother John, see, I knew you delved into the Wiki for that Maslow. The Maslow I know is from studying the actual published works, not just the_ interpretations_ that are on Wiki. If you look at the raw data Maslow's experiments generated and the evolution of Maslow's hypothosis over time as he followed other Behaviorists experiments and studied their conclusions you'd have better idea why I say leave the Psyche OUT when speaking of Maslow. If you want to talk about behavoirists remember the Grand Daddy of all behavoirists is Pavlov. The idea remains the same, except this time when I ring the bell instead of a cooked prime rib, the reward, while still warm and moist, is a bit more Raw.
> 
> If you want to bring emotion into this you can't quote Behaviorists. You need to go to the Humanists. Don't Wiki Harlow. Read Harlow. ( I know, who has time to actually read a book anymore. :shrug: )
> 
> lori


 
Lori-

You kind of proved my concern true: that by using wikipedia as a reference you may try to skew it to seem that I've never bothered to actually read Maslow. But I have. Lucky for me I made LOTS of "time to read a book"....or many books.... while majoring in psychology.  I merely used wikipedia as a quick and easy "Here look at this" reference for the many who may read this and wonder what I was talking about. They're not always "RIGHT"....but WP does tend to sum things up fairly decently. 

It's odd; from the way you talk of him it would seem that you think of Maslow as a Behaviorist. Couldn't be further from the truth. He was at the vanguard of the Humanistic Pschology movement; which was a reaction against the cold impersonal "Behaviorists", though he looked into and I think appreciated Cognitive Psychologists like Piaget and such. 
Later Maslow formed what he called the "4th Force" in Pschology, the "Transpersonal" Psychology. A later example of this would be Ken Wilber. 

I have read several, but not all, of Maslow's own works.......for myself........and enjoyed them.  
It doesn't sound like your as familiar with Maslow if you think that a man who delved into the "Meaningful Context" of man's needs and how he meets them........also views human's along the same lines as behaviorists or "like lizards"....
ewww...

Anyway: I think that Maslow would be agahst if someone suggested that prostitution was a viable means of meeting the basic needs of either the prostitute OR the "John"...

Hate it that the name gets used like that.

Your Brother
John
PS: Maslow's works I have read (first hand) Toward a Psychology of Being (1968), Motivation and Personality (1970 The Further Reaches of Human Nature (1971).  
That's all...


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## The Last Legionary (Dec 5, 2010)

Can I just say, I love the Moonlight Bunny Ranch?  If it wasn't for them, I don't know what I'd do when I visit Nevada.


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## David43515 (Dec 5, 2010)

Sukerkin said:


> Nothing with batteries is ever going to replace thirty years of guitar playing ...
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


 
LOL!!

It`s funny you should say that. As I was reading some of the posts leading up to yours I kept thinking "When a toy learns how to bring homemade chicken soup to a girl with a cold, or how to cook a perfect roast, lasagna, or cheesecake while she`s studying for exams.....then I`ll start to worry. Until then I`m good thanks."

I`m also reminded of what actor Charlie Sheen said years ago when they asked him why a rich, goodlooking  famous guy like him needed to pay for prostitutes to have sex with him. "I`m not paying them to have sex, I`m paying them to leave afterwards." It`s a sad statement......but when he said it a little lightbuld of understanding went on over the head of every guy I knew.


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## Sukerkin (Dec 5, 2010)

Oh my, that *is* a sad thing {for Mr. Sheen} to say indeed .

I have argued that I am for the legalisation of prostitution, largely for the benefit of those who ply the trade rather than those that make 'use' of it.  

At the end of the day tho', until such time my missus is dead and I am too ugly for my charm to counterbalance that physical lack in the dance of romance, it is not a service I could ever see myself engaging.  That does not mean tho' that I would deny such a legal transaction to others (I do have issues with the current not-quite-legal-not-quite-illegal state of affairs).

I do agree, giving due note to the disbelief expressed earlier, that sex is a 'need' for some people (male or female) for a variety of physiological/psychlogical reasons.  It is not so much a 'necessity' for most of us for physical health but psychological well-being is a whole other story.  

Sublimation of the sex drive can have all kinds of effects that depend on the individual.  For some, it results in the diversion of all that energy into another creative avenue.  For others it is a non-event or results in some relatively minor personality dysfunction.  For a, blessedly small, number it is a 'blocked channel' that results in release through violence or other deviant behaviour.

The final summation is that sex is a primary function of our being alive.  The selfish gene does not care a whit about all our discourses on the matter - it just wants to pass it's immortal self on through us to another generation.  If we do not do that for it, we are of no use to it.  That lack of 'utility' has consequences for us as an organism.


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## Tez3 (Dec 6, 2010)

The Last Legionary said:


> *Well then how is he ever gonna complete the deal with the hookers?*
> 
> 
> OH! You mean the one on his shoulders! Better idea, easier target.
> ...


 

He plays rugby if he deals with hookers, could be a hooker himself perhaps.  

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_union_positions


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## Bob Hubbard (Dec 6, 2010)

In the US, "Hooker" is a slang term originally used to describe the "camp followers" that tagged along with U.S. General Hooker during our little internal disturbance in the 1860's.  "Hookers Girls", later shortened to just "Hookers".

It's also used to describe wrestlers I hear, though real hookers in pro-wrestling are scares these days, as most are now acrobats and bad actors.

This moment of education is brought to you by KY Jelly. Don't be dry, use KY!


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