# Bare-Knuckle Boxing/Wing Chun Article



## dungeonworks (Nov 27, 2007)

http://www.usadojo.com/articles/bare-knuckle-boxing.html

Being interested in Wing Chun and still searching for training options in my area (near Flint, Michigan), I came across this article by Armando Sainz.  It is a pretty good read so I thought I would put up a link.  Judging from my wing-chun-uneducated eyes (and countless YouTube.com vid's  ), I can see some similaritys between Wing Chun and Long-Bridge (Bare-Knuckle) Boxing's stances and footwork.


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## Karatedrifter7 (Nov 27, 2007)

Interesting, how do you like Wing Chun?


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## dungeonworks (Nov 27, 2007)

I haven't started it yet.  Found a place to train but it is kind of a haul as is another place.  The third guy's schedule doesn't mesh with mine, and too bad he is the closest.


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## CuongNhuka (Nov 28, 2007)

I read that article a little while ago. It was OK, but some of the wording made it seem to me that the author thought that Bare Knuckle influenced Wing Chun. Could just be me though.


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## tshadowchaser (Nov 28, 2007)

Interesting article


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## KamonGuy2 (Nov 30, 2007)

CuongNhuka said:


> I read that article a little while ago. It was OK, but some of the wording made it seem to me that the author thought that Bare Knuckle influenced Wing Chun. Could just be me though.


I completely agree. Some of the wording seemed a little arrogant.
We don't truly know what influenced what several hundred years ago
And it would not be right to say that wing chun influenced bare knuckle boxing in turn

On the other side of martial arts, I know that there has always been debate about how BJJ supposedly emanated from Judo

What we have to focus on is what we practice today and now and ask our Sifus who they were influenced by. That should be good enough


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## LoneRider (Jun 27, 2008)

I completely agree with you on that point. I've read this article and actually have been training with Armando Sainz for the better part of two years. I think it's a very interesting theory as to how my line of Wing Chun came into existence.

 I'd also heard the legend of Nim Wing Chun, who had resisted the advances of a Triad lord and beat the daylights out of him with an MA style she developed.

 Let's also not forget that Wing Chun and other Southern Chinese King Fu styles were typically developed by rebels seeking to overthrow the Ming Dynasty and many stories surrounding their origins could well be stories designed to hide their originators.

 Regards,

 Lone Rider


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## Si-Je (Jul 3, 2008)

My friend and other teacher has a really crazy idea of the "origins" of WC.  I like the idea of Yim Wing Chun, and the more I learn the more I see a female mindset to the art.  (and I have a hard time buying that a bunch of men developed the art and none ever wanted to take credit for it somewhere down the line.  Not meaning to be mean about men, but it just seems unlikely to me.)

Alot of folks say she didn't exist, but if she didn't then I wonder who taught her husband?  Was he married then if she didn't exist and it was just the Ching rebels?  

It's all so confusing.  My other teacher thinks it was influenced by the Portugese?!  (He takes western martial arts, and studies knife fighting).
After all, they all travelled far and wide in the Opera didn't they?  
Anyhoo,
Just weird stuff for thought.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 3, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> My friend and other teacher has a really crazy idea of the "origins" of WC. I like the idea of Yim Wing Chun, and the more I learn the more I see a female mindset to the art.


 
Some thing my Sensei/Sifu says all the time (keep in mind he is a very large, very muscular former soldier) "Whenever someone asks me how I fight, I tell them 'I fight like a girl'. Because when a woman fights, it is mostly with technique, since women don't normally have the muscle to fight like men. Fighting like men leaves you open against someone who knows how to counter a commited attack".

Lets examine Wing Chun. It's power mostly comes from technique, and discourages the use of raw-muscle. It is built around fighting against either the same, or a commited attack. It is mostly about using your hands, and low level kicks. If you were a woman in the time of women wearing dresses, you are going to be rather unable to kick. There is little footwork, and a woman in a dress is not going to be able to move as easily. So, it makes perfect sense that Wing Chun was created by a woman.

And how does he figure it was infleunced by the Portugese?


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 4, 2008)

I do like the Yim Wing Chun story.
Most articles that I have read say that it was developed by the Shaolin temples and that they designed an art to help the smaller monks and female monks help fight all the big muscly monks
Other stories have Ng Mui inventing the style
Other stories have the monks inventing the style to fight off the armies of the Emperor

But at the end of the day, unless we invent time travel, we will never truly know!!

Anyone heard any updates on the Yip Man film they are making?


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## dungeonworks (Jul 4, 2008)

There are two upcoming biopics on Ip Man.  One is Wilson Yip's film with Donnie Yen playing Ip Man and focusing more on his early years 1930's-1940's era.  It is said to be more focused on Ip Man's martial arts and has both son's Ip Cun and Ip Ching consulting for and appearing in the film.  The other film, which has been on and off since 2002 is directed by Wong Kar-Wai and Ip Man is played (expectedly anyways) by Tony Leung Chiu-Wai.  It is slated to be more of a drama with a focus on Ip Man's latter years.  I personally doubt this one will be made anytime soon, if ever.  It's been hung up several times and was originally slated for a 2002 release or something.  Wilson Yip's is being released later this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grandmaster_Yip_Man  has some news on it, but this link...

http://www.kungfucinema.com/?p=2240 says more....

"...Donnie Yens YIP MAN has completed shooting in Shanghai and is expected to be released at the end of the year. It features the action direction of Sammo Hung and also stars Simon Yam (FATAL MOVE), Fan Siu-wong (SHAOLIN VS. EVIL DEAD), Gordon Lam (THE SPARROW), and Xing Yu (KUNG FU HUSTLE)."


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## Si-Je (Jul 4, 2008)

It's a loooooong history lesson with the Portuguse!  They were sailers and adventures for a long time.  Slave traders, Pirates, merchant marines, etc. They travelled everywhere.

Like the Phillipines, who's martial arts and culture is heavily influenced by the Spanards.  Like fencing, (with the long sword and the short dagger, not the well known French style that's something elese).

The Chinese boat opera travelled constantly doing shows all over China and who knows where else, it's an interesting theory.
If you look at Wing Chun and then at ALL other Chinese Kung Fu, their blarring different.  One of the only similarities I've seen is Tan Sau.  But the stance and body position is upright, very western style of fighting stance.  Be it boxing, fencing, whatever.  No stance in WC is large or deep like other kung fu, the arm movements are tight and straight (like the moves you'd use with a knife or fencing sword as my friend states)

example: pac sau punch.  He says you do the same move with a knife, or with a sword and a dagger.  You deflect the opponent's blade with your sword or dagger and "stab" with the other knife, sword, or dagger.  In the same arm and hand motions of Pac Sau and Punch.

I'd have to give him a call again.  He could (and probably should) write a book on that subject! lol!


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 4, 2008)

The thing is, Western Boxers at time used longer stances then you see now. The guard was similar though. But, your hands were in fist, and the palm was up. There were many other differnces (like how to block). Boxing at the time allowed all forms of kicking, and grappling. It was not at all uncommon for a winner to do so by strangling his opponent. Sometimes to death. Also, Western Fencing uses long stances, with a fair portention of there weight forward. And they mostly use one hand, which is differnit from 'one hand helps another'.

Another thought, there are other forms of Martial Arts that use short stances. Filipino Arts use shorter stances, and a somewhat similar method of teaching (by that I mean they use mostly drills to convey the concepts). And, almost every style has short stances, they just aren't the focus in a fight. But, like I said, that doesn't mean they don't exist. 

Is there a chance that Bare-Knuckle Boxing and Wing Chun may have influenced each other? Of course. But, I doubt that it was that heavily influenced by Bare-Knuckle Boxing.


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## Si-Je (Jul 4, 2008)

The wider stances in fencing is French.  That's what I alway thought too.  We've all see the large lunging stances of French style fencing.

Spanish and Portugese fence differently.  Pirates or merchant sailors sailed, fought, and met folks from all over the world. This produced a totally different style of "fencing" and fighting.  That's really the main origins of the style he's studing now, although he's studied WC/WT all the way through dummy form, long pole, butterfly swords, the works.
Just hear it alot from him, lol!  He's on the western fighting styles kick now, and has great knowledge of many arts.  
Thought it would be fun to just "throw" out there.


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## geezer (Jul 4, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> ...He's on the western fighting styles kick now, and has great knowledge of many arts.  Thought it would be fun to just "throw" out there.



Interesting how a lot of people who have spent years studying various Asian MA's are coming "home" to study their own traditions. And they find a lot of common threads--whether or not there was any direct contact between the traditions. At the highest, most conceptual levels, the differences between systems diminish. That's also my best guess as to why WC/WT somewhat resemble the old stlye bare knuckle boxing.


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## LoneRider (Jul 4, 2008)

At my school it is explained that the WC/WT resemblance to bare knuckle boxing is owed to the fact that a Chinese physician noted that traditional (Northern Chinese) Kung Fu fighters were being bested by Western Sailors using bare knuckle boxing. He copied the basic fighting stances of the bare knuckle boxers and combined the flowing movements of Tai Chi Chuan and Wing Chun was born.

I would figure that the numerous stories as to how Wing Chun came to be was the explanation of how the various Southern Chinese styles came to be. Rebels seeking to overthrow the Ming Dynasty. A confusing array of origin stories, while inconvenient for modern practitioners curious about their fighting heritage meant that the true originators of the art could avoid the executioner's axe...But then that's just my two cents on the matter.


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## CuongNhuka (Jul 4, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> The wider stances in fencing is French. That's what I alway thought too. We've all see the large lunging stances of French style fencing.


 
I geuss that makes sense, but I still find it hard to beleive that the two styles had too much to do with each other.


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## dungeonworks (Jul 5, 2008)

Would it be out of the realm of possibilities that the Chinese and Western world deduced fighting principle and technique to similar conclusion?  I mean, both have 2 arms, 2 legs, 5 fingers/toes...ect., so it wouldn't be shocking to me if they came to similar answers.

I will say this though, coming from a Koei-kan Karate/Tae Kwon Do background, it is incredible that WC/WT/VT could be sooooo much different (More in my eyes).  I wish I had access to this art years ago.


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## geezer (Jul 5, 2008)

LoneRider said:


> At my school it is explained that the WC/WT resemblance to bare knuckle boxing is owed to the fact that a Chinese physician noted that traditional (Northern Chinese) Kung Fu fighters were being bested by Western Sailors using bare knuckle boxing. He copied the basic fighting stances of the bare knuckle boxers and combined the flowing movements of Tai Chi Chuan and Wing Chun was born.



That's a story that's been around for a while, but unfortunately is _just as speculative and historically unsubstantiated_ as the traditional Chinese origin stories for WC/WT. It is factually known that WC existed pretty much in its current form since the times of Leung Jan of Fatshan (Fo'shan) in the mid 1800's. Earlier than that is a matter of speculation. Still, WC did not spring into existence ex-nihilo. It emerged from the context of Southern Chinese boxing which emphasized narrow upright stances, fast, close-range hand techniques and low kicks. Other examples of this regional approach include Fukien White Crane, Southern Preying Mantis and so forth. What was revolutionary about WC/WT was it's _concept of simplicity_ and approaches to training. While the other, similar Southern Chinese systems favored numerous, complicated forms and elaborate movements with highly poetic names, WC/WT reduced it's forms to the bare minimum of three, plus the dummy-set and two short weapons sets. Techniques were named for what they were, such as "tan-sau" for palm-up arm. The style was streamlined with the objective of absolute efficiency and practicality. And, perhaps most significantly, _chi-sau_ evolved to enable a practitioner to "read" his opponent's energy and turn his force back against him. Significantly, there's nothing like _that_ in Western boxing.

Considering the context in which WC/WT emerged, and in how insular and anti-foreign the 
Chinese culture in Fatshan was during the mid-late 19th century, the Western, bare-knuckle boxing connection seems _pretty unlikely_, after all. Perhaps a more probable explanation is a simple matter of convergent evolution, ie. adapting to what works in a given situation. Sharks and dolphins came from totally different roots, yet both are streamlined as an adaptation to swimming in the ocean. WC/WT and bare-knuckle boxing resemble each other simply because t_hey both represent a highly practical adaptation to fist-fighting_.


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## mook jong man (Jul 5, 2008)

In our system we believe that the style was founded by the buddhist nun Ng Mei in the early 1700's. 
She was one of the top five fighters of that period and highly skilled in the existing styles of kung fu. 
The story goes that she witnessed a fight between a stork and a large rodent, she was impressed by the way that the stork used its wings to deflect attacks and kicked at the same , if you know basic Wing Chun this looks exactly like a dai sau and low heel kick. 
Why is it so hard for people to believe that a woman formulated this style ? People who challenged the great Yip Man and came off second best remarked that he fought with a feminine like minimalism but with unbelievable power.
 I don't think the system has any thing to do with bare knuckle boxing or any boxing for that matter.
 One of the principles of wing chun is minimum use of brute strength indeed in our lineage we try to cultivate Nim Lik which roughly translates to meaning mind force or thought force. 
This means that with the right training in sil lum tao under the guidance of a qualified master you can execute extremely powerful techniques requireing hardly any muscular force to be used , this power comes from the brain. 
I have seen our own Sigung Tsui Seung Tin do amazing things such as holding three very big men back from pushing him over, Sigung is about 75 years old and skinny he wouldn't weigh much more than 55 kg i reckon so he is not using muscle.
 We don't do any conditioning of our hands and arms apart from chi sau and hitting a wall bag, in my opinion there are just to many things that fit with this style being developed by a female.


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## geezer (Jul 6, 2008)

mook jong man said:


> In our system we believe that the style was founded by the buddhist nun Ng Mei in the early 1700's.
> ... in my opinion there are just to many things that fit with this style being developed by a female.



I'm sorry, but from my perspective, there are too many historical gaps and contradictions to take the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun literally. But don't take it personally. I feel the same way about the Bible. And, like biblical parables, the story of Ng Mui and Yim Wing Chun certainly contains the essential truths of our Wing Chun/Tsun heritage. Just as a biblical parable teaches us how we should live, so these "Wing Chun parables" teach us how we should approach our kung fu. We may never be able to prove that the system was invented by women.._.but it should have been!_


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## naneek (Jul 6, 2008)

the wing chun system certainly seems to fit those of a more slight stature such as women, i really cant see a significant influence from bare knuckle at all, it puzzles me that anyone does. incidently my grandfather, father and several uncles were bare knucklers in ireland and i learned a little bit too.


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## KamonGuy2 (Jul 7, 2008)

The thing is, people see aspects of their martial arts in other styles, purely because the human body can only do certain movements

A good punch is a good punch but there are only a couple of ways of doing a good punch. So of course you are going to see things in other styles that are close to yours

Sometimes arts are influenced by others or they may have descended from others, but at the end of the day, if I train and discover something that works, I'll use it. Whether I discovered it on my own or by learning it from someone else


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## Si-Je (Jul 7, 2008)

I think the similarity lies with the straight on stance of Bare knuckle boxing and WC.  Shoulders square with hips.  My dad taught me some boxing when I was a kid, he used to box in the Navy, and he taught me to "cover" and punch.  And something similar to pac and punch.   A more agressive way to box than how I've seen other boxers fight now.

They focus more on defense it seems now in the ring.  (I've seen pro boxers fight and "block" sometimes too.)  But, my dad had me block and punch at the sametime more often.  Because I'm a "girl" and that's what we truely NEED to do when sparring or fighting anyone!  So, he'd teach his son different than how he taught me.


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## geezer (Jul 7, 2008)

Si-Je said:


> ...My dad taught me some boxing when I was a kid, he used to box in the Navy, and he taught me to "cover" and punch.  And something similar to pac and punch.   A more agressive way to box than how I've seen other boxers fight now.



That is _sooo cool_. My  12 year-old daughter has zero interest in learning anything like that from me! She thinks it's totally stupid. Yet she has a couple of girl friends that take TKD and she's OK with that. Go figure.


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