# Coming soon to your home: Your Own McDojo!



## Cryozombie (Oct 5, 2005)

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00085EW1U/qid=1128531545/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-1615936-2399243

Am I the only one with a problem with this "Toy"???


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2005)

The distance education revolution continues...


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 5, 2005)

Like cardio-kickboxing for kids   "You too can delude yourself into thinking you can defend yourself"


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2005)

Technopunk I agree this is really too far out for me, does it come with the manual and testing info. NO of course not so how can you call it Black Belt if the kid in the picture is a BB why would he need this get a real bag.

Terry


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 5, 2005)

If the kid in the picture was a real black belt I would hope his kick would have better form


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## Cryozombie (Oct 5, 2005)

It comes with a Training DVD


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## mantis (Oct 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It comes with a Training DVD


 that's actually pretty cool.. can you buy a happy meal too?
 so next time ur attacked just invite the attacker to play a martial art video game... how about Mortal Kombat!?
 i wanna buy one for the 48-Taichi form!


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## mantis (Oct 5, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> If the kid in the picture was a real black belt I would hope his kick would have better form


 yah.. they shoulda did a better job with photoshop!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2005)

yeah, i have a problem with the toy, and with the kid wearing a black belt.  I'd give him a white, maybe with a yellow stripe if i'm feeling generous that day...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 5, 2005)

We were at Wal-Mart last night and my wife saw one and asked me if I thought it would be good for the kids. I said, 'Sure, in the same way a tricycle prepares you for an eighteen-wheeler', and she smiled quietly to herself.


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## Navarre (Oct 5, 2005)

*fights back a wave of nausea at the sight of this travesty*

There are so many things out there that continue to distort and disrepute what true Artists are all about. That's why we have to remain vigilant against such forces and continue to uphold our own integrity.

The World Sokeship Council passed a ruling in 1993 that no longer recognized children under the age of 18 as full black belts. They could hold a junior ranking but would not be considered in the same category as an adult. ... I'm not sure what was decided about how a junior black belt would reach adult black belt ranking once they turned 18.  That is probably decided within the system itself.


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## rutherford (Oct 5, 2005)

Didn't you know?  That kid is the President of the World Sokeship Council.


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## Navarre (Oct 5, 2005)

I always knew Grandmaster Sanchez would hold up well in his later years. Shows what clean living and a kid-size dojo kicking bag will do for ya!


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## Gemini (Oct 5, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> ... I'm not sure what was decided about how a junior black belt would reach adult black belt ranking once they turned 18.


In the WTF, they're called a poome. (junior BB). The process is fairly simple. On your 18th birthday, the Fairy God Mother comes to your house, waives her majic wand, and *poof* the rest is history.


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 5, 2005)

> Become a Karate Master at home with the Black Belts Karate Home Studio. Learn blocks, punches, stances, & kicks all in a fun & safe way. Comes complete with a 30 minute action packed video, training mat with easy step by step instructions, and an inflatable heavy bag to master your moves. DVD & VHS available. Become a Karate Master with Tommy Nitro & his team as they teach you the coolest karate moves. Also look out for the Black Belts Karate Gi.


*raises hand in the air* I want one!  I want to learn the "coolest karate moves" from Master Tommy Nitro.... *NOT!* :roflmao:

What's really sad is that some poor kid will buy it thinking that they will really learn how to defend themselves...


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## Brian R. VanCise (Oct 5, 2005)

I saw that at Wal-Mart the other day as well! Believe it
or not these things will continue to keep popping up and
parents will continue to buy them! Otherwise the kid will
have to train for a long time to get a legitimate blackbelt,
and that would cost the parents lots of money! All in all,
these kind of gimmick toys are really just a way to keep 
the kids busy and out of mom's or dad's hair! 

Brian R. VanCise


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## Navarre (Oct 5, 2005)

I imagine that's about the way it works.

I agree that a younger teenager or child does not have the capacity to internalize all that a black belt ranking entails, no matter how proficient they are.  I support the ruling. However, it has then become a matter more of legality than anything else. 

Are most 16 yr olds mature enough to drive a car? Not really but it is as much a matter of experience driving as when their birthday falls. Fifty year olds driving for the first time are nearly as dangerous (though less likely to wreck while jammin' out to Ludacris).

Why is it okay to sleep with an 18 yr old girl but not a 17 yr old (depending on the state)? Neither typically have the maturity to make good decisions about such things but there are also exceptions.

I guess with everything a boundary has to be placed somewhere, a guideline for us all to follow to ensure uniformity. I'm a non-conformist myself but I still support the ruling.

So, (18 yrs - 1 day = Junior Ranking) and 18yrs(+)=instant Black Belt.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2005)

Gin-Gin said:
			
		

> *raises hand in the air* I want one! I want to learn the "coolest karate moves" from Master Tommy Nitro.... *NOT!* :roflmao:
> 
> What's really sad is that some poor kid will buy it thinking that they will really learn how to defend themselves...


I want to learn in a fun and safe environment...


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2005)

Become a Karate Master at home with the Black Belts Karate Home Studio. Learn blocks, punches, stances, & kicks all in a fun & safe way. Comes complete with a 30 minute action packed video, training mat with easy step by step instructions, and an inflatable heavy bag to master your moves. DVD & VHS available. Become a Karate Master with Tommy Nitro & his team as they teach you the coolest karate moves. Also look out for the Black Belts Karate Gi. 



I like the "easy step by step instructions" bit too.  
And just how "heavy" is an "inflatable heavy bag"???

(pounds head on desk)


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## Navarre (Oct 5, 2005)

Oh, it isn't like this is a new problem. Can anyone remember way back in the old comic books when they had the ads to "Learn to be a Karate Master!" or the old ad where the kid gets sand kicked in his face and then goes on the Atlas bodybuilding program to become a superhuman hulk? 

Things like this will always be here. It's our mission as knights of The Art to defend it from such ignorance. 

... and, no, I'm not suggesting we stage a ninja-style raid on Wal-Mart! ... But, if we do, I can really help out 'cause I got these cool x-ray glasses outta my comic book!


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## DavidCC (Oct 5, 2005)

Appalling! And this too!!! Must they ruin everything!


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1571457364/002-5371896-1758448?v=glance&n=283155









> Go beyond dreaming of being a star ballerina and let the performance begin. This kit contains everything needed to stage your own ballet. There's a CD with music for Swan Lake, the Nutcracker, Cinderella, and Sleeping Beauty, a beautiful tiara, programs, tickets, and a poster to personalize. An easy-to-follow 32-page book demonstrates ballet positions and outlines choreography for scenes from each ballet. The book tells the story of each ballet, and gives aspiring ballerinas information about set design, hair styles, costumes, and make-up. Watch your star shine!


disgusting! Letting little girls think they are real ballarinas  This could engender a false sense of security that might lead to serious injury!


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 5, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Appalling! And this too!!! disgusting! Letting little girls think they are real ballarinas  This could engender a false sense of security that might lead to serious injury!


Like Navarre said, it's the same old problem as the McDojo product.   Nothing can replace a qualified instructor, whether it's Ballet or Martial Arts, but unfortunately there are still companies who will sell anything if they think someone will buy it.  And as Brian VanCise said, some parents will buy it if they think it will be a good babysitter.


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## mrhnau (Oct 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00085EW1U/qid=1128531545/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-1615936-2399243
> 
> Am I the only one with a problem with this "Toy"???


Are you telling me my black belt is not legit? :waah: 

seriously though... if its a good way for a kid to get some exercise, or the parents don't have enough $ to send a kid to a dojo for 2+ years at $50 a month ($600 a year), or there is no legit place in the vicinity, I don't have a problem with it. We all know its not a legit black belt, and when the kid grows up he (hopefully) will understand he is not a "master". It might encourage him to look into seriously studying things! you never know! It might spark sufficient interest in really studying.

Think of it as a little kiddie Billy Banks DVD perhaps... doing a bit of Tae Bo in your den does not make you a master, but its good exercise, and you might pick up a few things. I'd rather have my kid doing this than sitting on their butt playing video games all day.

Only thing I might see as a problem is the kid runs around "I'm a karate black belt!" at school, and promptly gets the tar beaten out of him.

MrH


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> "You too can delude yourself into thinking you can defend yourself"


Yep. Exactly!


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2005)

Navarre said:
			
		

> The World Sokeship Council passed a ruling in 1993 that no longer recognized children under the age of 18 as full black belts.


Even _they_ have some standards? Who knew!


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 5, 2005)

Hey! That's how I got my BB. It rocks! I'm a 10th degree now. I'm gettin ready to open my own school (got the family room all cleaned up and everything) AND I'm developing my own system. So there. :erg:


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## mrhnau (Oct 5, 2005)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Hey! That's how I got my BB. It rocks! I'm a 10th degree now. I'm gettin ready to open my own school (got the family room all cleaned up and everything) AND I'm developing my own system. So there. :erg:


I wonder if they have an adult version. I'm a bit too tall for the other one. Unless I get my BB in midget-do, the art of attacking and destroying only midgets. Otherwise, I might become very good at attacking knees? :idunno: Shins are always good targets.

MrH


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 5, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> I wonder if they have an adult version. I'm a bit too tall for the other one. Unless I get my BB in midget-do, the art of attacking and destroying only midgets. Otherwise, I might become very good at attacking knees? :idunno: Shins are always good targets.
> 
> MrH


  Heh. I don't know man. Just use the bag it comes with will ya?! Gosh! :uhyeah:

 Actually....if you want to learn midget-do, I can teach you that at my new school. :rofl:


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## DavidCC (Oct 5, 2005)

Gin-Gin said:
			
		

> Like Navarre said, it's the same old problem as the McDojo product. Nothing can replace a qualified instructor, whether it's Ballet or Martial Arts, but unfortunately there are still companies who will sell anything if they think someone will buy it. And as Brian VanCise said, some parents will buy it if they think it will be a good babysitter.


Yeah I'm also worried that playing with hot wheels will make my son think he can drive, and playing with baby dolls will make my daughter think she is already a mommy.  It's a TOY even a 5yr old knows the difference so why are we as adults concerned about it??  We bought a superman costume for my nephew, and he doens't think he is now a hot-shot newspaper reporter!


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## MJS (Oct 5, 2005)

Hmmm...and here is an endorsement from someone who obviously does not have a clue!



> For all these "serious" martial artists who criticize the product I would urge you all to think outside the "box" and understand that a kid who is sitting at home because they're afraid to join a real Karate class might become inspired by this toy and urge their parent/s to sign them up for a real Karate class! The product is not meant to be the "be all, end all" of Karate but inspire kids to be more than they are and that it's okay to dream big.



Sounds like some contradicting is going on here.  Lets see...the child may be afraid to join a "real" class, but after using this product its somehow going to change the kids mind? :idunno:   I have a better idea: Enroll the child in a school where he'll learn some quality skills!



> In North America it is a proven fact that our children are becoming less physically active due to technological advances and seem to suffer increasingly more from age-related diseases at younger ages. Everything being relative, any toy that encourages physical activity at an affordable cost is worth every penny in my book!



True, there are alot of over weight kids today, but I think it'd be a bit more productive to sign the child up for an activity, where they can interact with other kids, rather than have them attempt to follow along with someone that they're totally unfamiliar with.



> This is a fantastic product and our kids love it!



And you were paid how much to say that??

Mike


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 5, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Sounds like some contradicting is going on here.  Lets see...the child may be afraid to join a "real" class, but after using this product its somehow going to change the kids mind? :idunno:   I have a better idea: Enroll the child in a school where he'll learn some quality skills!
> 
> True, there are alot of over weight kids today, but I think it'd be a bit more productive to sign the child up for an activity, where they can interact with other kids, rather than have them attempt to follow along with someone that they're totally unfamiliar with.
> 
> ...


*Thank You!* That's what I'm talking about.


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 5, 2005)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Hey! That's how I got my BB. It rocks! I'm a 10th degree now. I'm gettin ready to open my own school (got the family room all cleaned up and everything) AND I'm developing my own system. So there. :erg:


:lol:  Good one, SiLum!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> And you were paid how much to say that??
> Mike


heh heh heh


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2005)

SilLum can you train me in your style so I can learn how to make up my own, see I have imagination I was tought by a old man with no wit about him, he said train and we trained.:idunno: :whip: 
Terry


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## Jade Tigress (Oct 5, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> SilLum can you train me in your style so I can learn how to make up my own, see I have imagination I was tought by a old man with no wit about him, he said train and we trained.:idunno: :whip:
> Terry


   Of course I can. But it'll cost ya. :shrug:

   :idea:  I know! Do you want to be my first BB?


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2005)

Sil Lum TigerLady said:
			
		

> Of course I can. But it'll cost ya. :shrug:
> 
> :idea: I know! Do you want to be my first BB?


I know it will cost but do I have to attend classes or just read a book or two.:idunno: :asian: 
Terry


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## Flying Crane (Oct 5, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> I know it will cost but do I have to attend classes or just read a book or two.:idunno: :asian:
> Terry


Aw hell, given your time in the martial arts, if it was me, i'd be willing to just mail you a certificate right now.  In fact, send me your address, and consider it on the way!!


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## Cryozombie (Oct 5, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Yeah I'm also worried that playing with hot wheels will make my son think he can drive, and playing with baby dolls will make my daughter think she is already a mommy. It's a TOY even a 5yr old knows the difference so why are we as adults concerned about it?? We bought a superman costume for my nephew, and he doens't think he is now a hot-shot newspaper reporter!


 It comes with an Instructional DVD, and has "moves" printed on the mat... Sorry to say that while you or I may be able to distinguish that its a "Toy" I bet there are people out there who will think of it as "quality" instruction for their kids... Probably the same type of people who earn their blackbelts from Home Study courses, then open Dojos. If it was an inflatable punching bag labeled "Black Belts" or "Karate master" or what have you... I wouldnt really care. 

 My issue is that it has INSTRUCTIONAL materials. Its passing itself off as "martial Arts lessons" and is then disrespectful enough to include a black belt. (if it were a costume pr dress up playset with that I wouldnt care... THIS ONE IS TEACHING)

 And, sorry, no... I dont believe many 5 year olds who play with that know the difference between "Real" martial arts training and "play" martial arts training.  Most of them lack critical thinking skills.  They are FIVE.


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## terryl965 (Oct 5, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Aw hell, given your time in the martial arts, if it was me, i'd be willing to just mail you a certificate right now. In fact, send me your address, and consider it on the way!!


Nah I would rather earn every belt I recieve, something about the sweat and bruises that just makes me feel better but thank you anyway.
Terry


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## Sapper6 (Oct 5, 2005)

it's a toy; take it for what it's worth.  i don't believe it was created as a "replacement" for anything, nor was the ballerina thing.  this is for kids; kids that have imaginations to grow up to be something great.  

ya never know, this toy might be the inspiration behind your next student signing up.

you don't see all of us sitting around bickering about the sets of fake groceries and fake household items they sell in the kids aisle, or the little mini vacuum cleaners, or toy lawn mowers, or anything else similiar.  the reason is because we know what they are meant for: child entertainment.  who really cares.  it seems, sometimes, we let our insecurities get the best of us.  don't sweat it.

 :asian:


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## arnisador (Oct 5, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> My issue is that it has INSTRUCTIONAL materials. Its passing itself off as "martial Arts lessons" and is then disrespectful enough to include a black belt.


 Yup, I agree--it's unsettling.


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## hardheadjarhead (Oct 5, 2005)

Ah, I just look at this as a silly marketing ploy for a play at home toy.  Surely nobody is going to take it seriously.

If a kid buys a cowboy hat and two two six shooters, nobody for a moment thinks he's a real cowboy. A police officer play set with plastic cuffs and a badge doesn't give the kid authority to arrest anyone.

This really isn't a threat to the arts.  Its typically tasteless American marketing...I'm not sure we need to be overly concerned with it.  Let the kids have their "make believe.'


Regards,


Steve


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## MJS (Oct 6, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> it's a toy; take it for what it's worth.  i don't believe it was created as a "replacement" for anything, nor was the ballerina thing.  this is for kids; kids that have imaginations to grow up to be something great.
> 
> ya never know, this toy might be the inspiration behind your next student signing up.
> 
> ...






> Ah, I just look at this as a silly marketing ploy for a play at home toy. Surely nobody is going to take it seriously.
> 
> If a kid buys a cowboy hat and two two six shooters, nobody for a moment thinks he's a real cowboy. A police officer play set with plastic cuffs and a badge doesn't give the kid authority to arrest anyone.
> 
> ...




Here is a quote from that site:

*Become a Karate Master at home* with the Black Belts Karate Home Studio. *Learn blocks, punches, stances, & kicks* all in a fun & safe way. Comes complete with a 30 minute action packed video, training mat with easy step by step instructions, and an inflatable heavy bag* to master your moves. DVD & VHS available.* *Becomea Karate Master* with Tommy Nitro & his team as they teach you the coolest karate moves. Also look out for the Black Belts Karate Gi


I think that the bold parts of this speak for themselves.  

Mike


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> Yup, I agree--it's unsettling.


*hands arni some TUMS*

I totally agree with Sapper. Its a toy! Let them get some exercise! Let them get inspired! When they get grown up and get all smart they might take some real martial arts!

If you don't like this product, I agree with Sapper. You better go raid your kids toys! Get rid of 95% of them. Take away their skates, they are not -real- skaters, the kind that makes money on the tour. Take away their bikes, they are not very good bikers anyways! Take away their balls. They are disillusioned by imagining they are Michael Jordan! Take away their dolls, they will never look like them and won't become world famous designers. Take away their toy cars, they won't own them irl and you don't want them to encourage them to "drive off cliffs". take away their GI Joes, you don't want to instill violence! Those horrible play guns making artificial gunshot noises! its insulting!

A large part of my favorite memories included my imagination. I spent alot of happy times with my favorite stick, running around like an idiot, killing bad ninjas LOL. I blew up alot of commies too! I even beat Michael Jordan a few times, making the last second shot! Its part of being a kid! As adults, we get serious. We have real life concerns. We need to make money. But let your kids be kids! Some kids might need the rigid atmosphere that a dojo can provide. It might be helpful. But please don't force them to grow up so soon...
One of my happier memories was my dad getting down on the floor with me, playing war or just goofing off w/ my toys. He also went out of way to lead in other things I was interested in. He coached baseball, Royal Rangers (like cub scouts). Those who are parents, get involved if you can!

with the product in question: take a breath, step back, and realize you don't need to purchase it! Some people will. Thats ok. I don't have a fear of some 12 year old kid opening his own dojo and proclaiming himself a master. Let him dream and attack those nasty bad ninjas  Let him karate chop Bin Laden some (if thats what kids imagine these days!) Its healthy imagination!

With regard to myself... I used to blow up commies, but I never joined the military. I used to beat Micheal Jordan, but I never joined the NBA. I used to beat up nasty ninjas, but I am learning a real art now. Some of your dreams you may never sincerely chase, but some you will! Encourage your kid to dream, but also encourage them to pursue. Some dreams are worth chasing!

MrH


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## MJS (Oct 6, 2005)

Here's that quote again:



> *Become a Karate Master at home* with the Black Belts Karate Home Studio.* Learn blocks, punches, stances, & kicks* all in a fun & safe way. Comes complete with a 30 minute action packed video, training mat with easy step by step instructions, and an inflatable heavy bag* to master your moves. DVD & VHS available. Becomea Karate Master* with Tommy Nitro & his team as they teach you the coolest karate moves. Also look out for the Black Belts Karate Gi



Maybe its just the way I'm reading it, but I look at this and I see someone saying that if you buy this product, it will turn you into a "Karate Master", show you how to punch, kick and strike, etc.  I don't think that a basketball comes with a statement that says that if you buy this ball, it'll turn you into the next Michael Jordan, if you buy this bat, it'll make you hit home runs every time, if you buy the Barbie car, it'll avoid the after-school sessions of driver ed.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Here's that quote again:
> 
> Maybe its just the way I'm reading it, but I look at this and I see someone saying that if you buy this product, it will turn you into a "Karate Master", show you how to punch, kick and strike, etc. I don't think that a basketball comes with a statement that says that if you buy this ball, it'll turn you into the next Michael Jordan, if you buy this bat, it'll make you hit home runs every time, if you buy the Barbie car, it'll avoid the after-school sessions of driver ed.


  Exactly...

 I dont think as HHJH suggested, that buying a Kid a cowboy outfit is going to make him think he is a cowboy... but now imagine for a second that came with a DVD that proclaimed "You will learn to rope real steer" whats the chance that 1 kid (out of the hundreds who buy it) deices to try it on a real steer? And gets killed? Is it just a harmless toy then? You cant blame the kid... the DVD said it would make him capable.

*Again, like I said a BILLION times in this thread... I dont have a problem with the "make believe" and "dress up" aspects of the toy... and thats what you guys are focused on... I have a problem that it is trying to/claiming to teach... AND giving a black belt to these kids. IF its so harmless, buy one for your kid... then after a few weeks, tell them to go stomp the local bully.  Get back to me with the results. *


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2005)

On one hand, this toy seems a travesty to those of us who have put in the time for the black belt as a symbol. I completely understand why this rankles people who are serious about MA. 

On the other hand, my daughter is three. She is too young for MA training. The bag, the mat, and the gi might be fun to play with...and it certainly would be a great way to introduce someone to the martial arts. 

Since I run my own dojang, I would toss the videos and play with her myself. However, someone who has no MA training, may need to use these videos to see how the "toy" works. The point is that this is a toy, complete with the fantasy. It cannot substitute for real training, however, a version of it could be usefull. 

Personally, I would rather see a product like this marketed as a "toy" and I would include a white belt in the box. The Karate Master aspect needs to go and the claims of real self defense too.  Also, I would nix the rediculous testing aspect. THAT is obviously a con anyway...pure Take My Dough.


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

MJS said:
			
		

> Maybe its just the way I'm reading it, but I look at this and I see someone saying that if you buy this product, it will turn you into a "Karate Master", show you how to punch, kick and strike, etc. I don't think that a basketball comes with a statement that says that if you buy this ball, it'll turn you into the next Michael Jordan, if you buy this bat, it'll make you hit home runs every time, if you buy the Barbie car, it'll avoid the after-school sessions of driver ed.


I sure remember seeing basketballs w/ MJ's picture on it. There is a reason he got multi-millions for endorsing products. Anyone here have Air Jordans? Or any celebrity endorsed product? Perhaps its not the only reason you bought the product, but it made you look at it more than likely. Would anyone buy MrHnau Shoes? hehe

How about this advertising technique:



> buy this product. They won't learn much, but they will get out of your hair and off of the video game system. They get a free white belt and our DVD tells them they stink, so they won't tell anyone they are a master. Free groveling mat included, in case they come across _real_ masters. Imagination guarenteed to be stiffled!


ok, so a bit heavy on the sarcasm, but you get the point  They are selling a product and its probably a fun toy for kids. Kids will get some exercise and maybe even learn a strike or two *gasp*



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> I dont think as HHJH suggested, that buying a Kid a cowboy outfit is going to make him think he is a cowboy... but now imagine for a second that came with a DVD that proclaimed "You will learn to rope real steer" whats the chance that 1 kid (out of the hundreds who buy it) deices to try it on a real steer? And gets killed? Is it just a harmless toy then? You cant blame the kid... the DVD said it would make him capable.
> 
> *Again, like I said a BILLION times in this thread... I dont have a problem with the "make believe" and "dress up" aspects of the toy... and thats what you guys are focused on... I have a problem that it is trying to/claiming to teach... AND giving a black belt to these kids. IF its so harmless, buy one for your kid... then after a few weeks, tell them to go stomp the local bully. Get back to me with the results.*


Rope real bulls? As a parent, are you actually watching what your child is doing? If so, what are you doing taking your child to a ranch, getting him a rope and pointing him to the biggest bull?

Telling your kid to go beat up the local bully? If you are telling that to your kid, then you've got some serious issues. What I -would- think would be reasonable is letting your kid learn how to defend himself _against_ the bully. Would this do it? Most likely not. If you _do _know an art, maybe you can use this to teach him some more useful things! He might enjoy, and it might be something you can share in the future!

Don't know about everyone here, but my dad did a decent job of lettting me know what was wrong and right. I never turned into a bully, nor ever tried to beat anyone up, even though I often pretended I was a master. The difference between right and wrong should be instilled of course! If you think your child might take it too serious, then don't get it! If your child can't tell that he should not rope a real bull, then don't get him the cowboy gear and rope. He won't suffer too much 

I'd like to see the DVD actually, see what they have to say. I'm sure they are not encouraging them to go beat anyone up. I'd be curious if they actually talk about avoiding it. Anyone know someone who has the product? I'd be curious to see at least the text.

MrH


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## MJS (Oct 6, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> I sure remember seeing basketballs w/ MJ's picture on it. There is a reason he got multi-millions for endorsing products. Anyone here have Air Jordans? Or any celebrity endorsed product? Perhaps its not the only reason you bought the product, but it made you look at it more than likely. Would anyone buy MrHnau Shoes? hehe



I'm afraid you missed my point.  A picture is one thing, but I have not seen an actual statement from Mr. Jordan saying that if you buy this ball it'll ensure that you always make your shot.

Please go back and look at the quote that I posted twice.  Its stating that if you buy this bag and dvd, you'll be a "Karate Master"

Mike


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

Here is a mature response on Amazon. I was looking at the reviews of the product.




> If you have any respect at all for the marital arts community, demand that all local retailers burn every single one of these pieces of garbage and then force the store manager to commit seppuku for being stupid enough to stock them.


LOL Thought it was humorous enough to share.

MrH


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2005)

I remember watching Bruce Lee movies as a kid and I wanted to be a "kung fu master" just like Bruce.  In fact, I would get together with my friends and we would re-enact scenes from Enter the Dragon in my backyard.  My mother saw this one day and asked if I wanted to try "real" karate.  I enthusiastically nodded my head yes and soon found myself enrolled at the local YMCA in a Shotokan dojo.  I was 11 years old, that is how I got started.  18 years later, my martial arts sojourn has taken quite a few steps.  Yet, the very first step was motivated by my silly childish kung fu fantasy.  I hope people can see my point.  Martial arts "toys" can be important starting places.  They can never replace real training, but they can help someone take the first step.  This particular toy, has some claims that I think go to far, IMO, but the concept of the "toy" is okay.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Oct 6, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yet, the very first step was motivated by my silly childish kung fu fantasy. I hope people can see my point. Martial arts "toys" can be important starting places.


I think there is a significant difference between using your imagination and buying into the machinations of toy marketing.

respectfully,

egg


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> I remember watching Bruce Lee movies as a kid and I wanted to be a "kung fu master" just like Bruce. In fact, I would get together with my friends and we would re-enact scenes from Enter the Dragon in my backyard.


I used to watch this show every Saturday. Kung Fu Theatre or something like that. They would jump over buildings, kill an army in 5 minutes, ect. It was great! I used to go swimming with a friend. We would sink to the bottom of the pool, play fight then "jump" to the top, "leaping" high into the air :ultracool We were uber-cool. 

hehe


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 6, 2005)

That was my take on it as well.  The verbage in the ad does not seem to position this as 'this is a toy to get excercise with' but 'this will teach your five year old to be an expert in karate'  Last time my kids bought toy race cars, they did not come with a driver's license, yet this one is giving out black belts.  I've never seen a toy race car that claimed that it would teach you to down-shift for more power and bump draft at Talladega and nudge out other drivers like Dale Earnhardt or Tony Stewart.  Most parents know the difference between a toy car and being able to drive a real car, but most parents *don't* know the difference between real martial arts training and not.  I mean, that's why I quipped about cardio-kickboxing.  How many *adults* going to cardio-kickboxing classes for an aerobic workout think that they are also learning effective self-defense.  Over in the thread on 'telling the truth' I made the point that most adults don't really know the difference between reality and fantasy/movie in the martial arts and it's up to those more experienced to help stear them right.  Yet these same adults are supposed to see a toy that purports to teach punches, blocks and kicks and understand that it's not real?


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

I agree with *MJS*. To the extent that it's a toy--no worries. But toy cars don't tell you that after playing with them for 30 minutes you're qualified for a driver's license. It's the "become a Karate master" verbiage that's so inappropriate.


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## Gin-Gin (Oct 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I agree with *MJS*. To the extent that it's a toy--no worries. But toy cars don't tell you that after playing with them for 30 minutes you're qualified for a driver's license. It's the "become a Karate master" verbiage that's so inappropriate.


And including a black belt; I agree with upnorthkyosa, a white belt should have been included instead of a black one, & the "Karate Master"  & "learn how to kick, punch, block" verbage should be deleted.


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## Makalakumu (Oct 6, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's the "become a Karate master" verbiage that's so inappropriate.


I would say that ANYTIME one hears this, it is inappropriate.  On toys, this message is even more rediculous then normal.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> It comes with an Instructional DVD, and has "moves" printed on the mat... Sorry to say that while you or I may be able to distinguish that its a "Toy" I bet there are people out there who will think of it as "quality" instruction for their kids... Probably the same type of people who earn their blackbelts from Home Study courses, then open Dojos. If it was an inflatable punching bag labeled "Black Belts" or "Karate master" or what have you... I wouldnt really care.
> 
> My issue is that it has INSTRUCTIONAL materials. Its passing itself off as "martial Arts lessons" and is then disrespectful enough to include a black belt. (if it were a costume pr dress up playset with that I wouldnt care... THIS ONE IS TEACHING)
> 
> And, sorry, no... I dont believe many 5 year olds who play with that know the difference between "Real" martial arts training and "play" martial arts training. Most of them lack critical thinking skills. They are FIVE.


Dead-on


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2005)

terryl965 said:
			
		

> Nah I would rather earn every belt I recieve, something about the sweat and bruises that just makes me feel better but thank you anyway.
> Terry


So no mail-ordered cross-ranking for you??!!  It's kind of in the same realm...


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Yet, the very first step was motivated by my silly childish kung fu fantasy.
> 
> Martial arts "toys" can be important starting places. They can never replace real training, but they can help someone take the first step. This particular toy, has some claims that I think go to far, IMO, but the concept of the "toy" is okay.


Agreed.  Toys are ok, even important, but this one, in my opinion, goes WAY too far.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> Rope real bulls? As a parent, are you actually watching what your child is doing? If so, what are you doing taking your child to a ranch, getting him a rope and pointing him to the biggest bull?
> 
> Telling your kid to go beat up the local bully? If you are telling that to your kid, then you've got some serious issues. MrH


Im not a parent, but I know from experience that more than enough of them turn thier kids loose with no supervision. 

I was being sarcastic about telling your kid to beat up the bully... but unfortunatly I could SEE it going down that way in the schoolyard.

Let me give you a more real world example, because, again, I am not against the "TOY" I am against the training its providing and the claims its making.

Assuming I ever have kids, I would buy my kid a Ninja costume. I would get him/her a plastic sword an shuriken... no worries. I WOULDNT sit him doown in front of my Hatsumi DVDs and say "There ya go sport, you can be a real ninja now" which is basically what the claims this toy are making now, except with the term "Karate Master" as opposed to ninja.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2005)

mrhnau said:
			
		

> I used to watch this show every Saturday. Kung Fu Theatre or something like that. They would jump over buildings, kill an army in 5 minutes, ect. It was great!
> hehe


Actually, the Kung Fu Theater that I remember had fight scenes that went on for some 30 minutes of pummelling and the fighters kept coming back for more! Even after spewing copious amounts of blood!  fond memories...heh heh


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Actually, the Kung Fu Theater that I remember had fight scenes that went on for some 30 minutes of pummelling and the fighters kept coming back for more! Even after spewing copious amounts of blood! fond memories...heh heh


Not to change the subject, but did You ever notice in those too, all the fighters must have had serious Hypertension, because the smallest cut made blood spray like it was in a pressure washer?


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Agreed. Toys are ok, even important, but this one, in my opinion, goes WAY too far.


Yes...it claims to be much more than a toy.


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## mrhnau (Oct 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Not to change the subject, but did You ever notice in those too, all the fighters must have had serious Hypertension, because the smallest cut made blood spray like it was in a pressure washer?


LOL! Indeed! My wife watched Kill Bill vol 1 w/ me, and was sickened by the amount of blood. She obviously never watched Kung Fu Theatre ;-)

Also loved that you could kick someone 100 times, and he still is fine. Cut his stomach open and he still fights for 30 more minutes. I was waiting for someones head to get caught off and still they continue fighting  Chicken kung fu? They keep going and going? hehehe

MrH


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## Flying Crane (Oct 6, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Not to change the subject, but did You ever notice in those too, all the fighters must have had serious Hypertension, because the smallest cut made blood spray like it was in a pressure washer?


Now THAT'S fightin', baby!  YEEE-HAHHH!!!


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## beauty_in_the_sai (Oct 6, 2005)

Ya I saw this at walmart and was appauled. It looks more like Twister with a bag than anything. A new item for all McDojos!  I'd like a McFlurry M&Ms


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## Hollywood1340 (Oct 6, 2005)

We outta start writing letters! Tommy Nitro? What are his qualifications and his lineage? Time in grade? Rank? Dates of ranks? Frankly I'm curious.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 6, 2005)

_t looks more like Twister with a bag than anything._

 We joked about that in class once...Takewon Do Twister.  Do it in pairs  "Left hand...face...Right hand....ribs" and see who would get the strike in first...


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## Sapper6 (Oct 6, 2005)

an article/ review of this item at bullshido...

http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php?name=Reviews&file=viewreview&id=157

it sounds alot like what is being said here, which in itself, is sad because i thought we were all smarter than that.  it's a friggin toy people.  recommended age is 3 & up.  think about that for a sec.

i guess this whole ruckus is about the "black belt" and "become a karate master" idea.  who gives a damn.  we've got a handful of worthless people who frequent *this* forum that wear black belts and call themselves masters; and yet we don't seem to mind them.

if this "toy" insprires even one kid to join a MA studio, then it's served it's purpose.

and all along i thought MT had a strict policy against fraud busting.  well, when you can find the same content here as you do that cess-pool bullshido...it would appear not.


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## mj-hi-yah (Oct 6, 2005)

Mod Note:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. :asian: 

MJ 
MT Moderator


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## Bester (Oct 6, 2005)

People are getting all wound up over a toy, thats aimed at kids?

I mean, I can understand it at the LitterBox forum, afterall, it's a bit over their heads there, but here?  Man, I thought folks here were a bit smarter than that.

Fraud busting, a kids fantasy product. O.K.
Since this one has now been completely busted, lets move on to the PowerRangers Action Gear shall we? That too might put some poor kid in a position to have fun, maybe generate an interest in the arts, and possibly put him in a stripmall school someday. We should stop it now.

I call for a ban on all stores carrying any martial toys. WalMart, ToysRUs and where ever the braintrust at LitterLand shops.  Who's with me?

Next: Examining the MartialArts of ScoobyDoo and it's damaging effects on the industry.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> if this "toy" insprires even one kid to join a MA studio, then it's served it's purpose.


   And if even one gets his *** kicked becuase of it?  Does that justify it as well?

 Lets paint a scenario... your "one kid" joins a dojo. My "one kid" gets beat up... everyone around him, not knowing his black belt came from the toy, all think martial arts are fake and stupid and useless.

  Who wins?


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

If we banned everything that gets kids asses kicked...childhood would be real boring.

 I see "lil ninja" kits with plastic swords, stars and masks all the time. Should those be pulled as well?

 It's the parents responsibility to guide the kids, and keep them from "going too far". It's why wrestling has the "Dont try this at home" warning.


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> If we banned everything that gets kids asses kicked...childhood would be real boring.


 I understand that... and Im SERIOUSLY not against the punching bag and dress up gi... Just the DVD and Claims of Karate mastership... somthing repeatedly ignored by the folks posting to this thread saying "Its a toy, if your gonna ban it lets ban blah blah blah..."

 Believe me, Im all for "Dress up" and "make believe"

 Bottom line, you may WANT to see it as that, but this product is NOT... it is DEFINATELY marketing itself as THE REAL THING.  BOTTOM LINE.


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## Bob Hubbard (Oct 6, 2005)

I see your point, but I also see Tae-Bo marketed as a self-defence art. There's marketing hype, and then theres intellegent research. Smart folks will read past the hype. The dumb ones...well...


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## Cryozombie (Oct 6, 2005)

Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> I see your point, but I also see Tae-Bo marketed as a self-defence art. There's marketing hype, and then theres intellegent research. Smart folks will read past the hype. The dumb ones...well...


 Yeah and Tae Bo is stupid on that level too!


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## shesulsa (Oct 6, 2005)

I guess I'd need to view the material and see if they offer some weird kind of certificate or something.  The scary thing is (since we talked about IQ and parenthood before) some adults actually think of it as cheap karate lessons - puts a whole new meaning to "WMA" - that would be ... Walmart Martial Arts.


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## Bester (Oct 6, 2005)

If kids fall for it, well, they are just kids.
If their parents fall for it, well, maybe the herd needed thinning.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 6, 2005)

I'd hate for the kids to be thinned from the herd because the parents fell for it


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## Sapper6 (Oct 6, 2005)

MJ said:
			
		

> Please keep the conversation polite and respectful.
> 
> MJ
> MT Moderator



trying real hard.  my apologies if it may seem otherwise.  



			
				Bester said:
			
		

> People are getting all wound up over a toy, thats aimed at kids?
> 
> I mean, I can understand it at the LitterBox forum, afterall, it's a bit over their heads there, but here? Man, I thought folks here were a bit smarter than that.
> 
> ...



i'm there man.  agreed 100%.  it almost seems that we, as martial artists, take our protection of said practice a little too far.  people need to lighten up a little.  of all things to be critical of the martial arts world, this is certainly low on my list of priorities.



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> And if even one gets his *** kicked becuase of it? Does that justify it as well?
> 
> Lets paint a scenario... your "one kid" joins a dojo. My "one kid" gets beat up... everyone around him, not knowing his black belt came from the toy, all think martial arts are fake and stupid and useless.
> 
> Who wins?



this could apply to alot of things.  how about we ban all books relating to the martial arts in school libraries as well.  it's a toy, take it at face value.  ever read the fine print description of most video games?  things like "rid the world of evil, overthrow rogue governments, wipe out the alien nation of the universe, etc..."  rather misleading is it not?  i mean, to lead children to believe such feats lie in their hands.  let's ban them as well.

is it the whole black belt idea...?  perhaps we should stop worshiping the idea of "attaining black belt mastery", then maybe we wouldn't get so offended over such petty things.  



			
				Bob Hubbard said:
			
		

> If we banned everything that gets kids asses kicked...childhood would be real boring.
> I see "lil ninja" kits with plastic swords, stars and masks all the time. Should those be pulled as well?
> It's the parents responsibility to guide the kids, and keep them from "going too far". It's why wrestling has the "Dont try this at home" warning.



i applaud your sense of reasoning.  that actually makes sense.  



			
				Technopunk said:
			
		

> Bottom line, you may WANT to see it as that, but this product is NOT... it is DEFINATELY marketing itself as THE REAL THING. BOTTOM LINE.



and i thought i was a ninja turtle when i was 9 yrs old.  but i grew out of it, imagine that.



			
				SS said:
			
		

> I guess I'd need to view the material and see if they offer some weird kind of certificate or something. The scary thing is (since we talked about IQ and parenthood before) some adults actually think of it as cheap karate lessons - puts a whole new meaning to "WMA" - that would be ... Walmart Martial Arts.



i am almost tempted to buy the thing just to offer some sort of review, just for those reasons you've stated.  but on the other hand, i can see this product for what it's worth and could hardly justify such purchase to my bride.  i sincerely believe she would think i've lost my mind.  

worse things have happened to the MA community.  we shouldn't lose our grasp of reality in the process.

happy trails...

 :asian:


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## arnisador (Oct 6, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> I'd hate for the kids to be thinned from the herd because the parents fell for it


  Yeah, that was my thought. But beyond that, offering certification is just too much.


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## bcbernam777 (Oct 6, 2005)

Now I am a fairly large man, can pay an extra $1 and upsize that  

In the venacular of the old country Fair Dinkum mate, Now I have seen everything, what am I missing out on, I am going to realease a new DVD next year and sell it with a manual packaged with power colours, "the 10 undefeatable techniques to fighting:How to defeat 20 men with one stroke" 

*excuses himself while he changes into his whoring clothes to sell his MA wares.


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## MJS (Oct 7, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yeah and Tae Bo is stupid on that level too!



I have not sat down and watched a Tae Bo tape other than seeing it advertised on an infomercial, but I wonder if Billy takes the time to explain how to * properly * throw those punches and kicks?  I've seen cardio kickboxing classes and the people are throwing some poor punches and kicks that will likely result in injury to the person throwing them.  Its also a shame that people deceive the public into actually thinking they are learning real SD.  I just don't see how someone who has NEVER thrown a punch or kick before, NEVER studied a martial art in their life, can sit there, pop a tape in, and honestly expect to learn something.  I'll give ya one better:  How can a parent honestly expect a 5 or 6 yo to do the same thing????????  4 and 5 yos have a hard enough time in an actual class, nevermind sitting there ifo the tv and trying to do the same thing.

Mike


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## MJS (Oct 7, 2005)

Sapper6 said:
			
		

> is it the whole black belt idea...?  perhaps we should stop worshiping the idea of "attaining black belt mastery", then maybe we wouldn't get so offended over such petty things.



IMO, there is nothing wrong with having a goal.  Whats sad, is that people do not want to actually do some work to attain that goal.  There is nothing wrong with "attaining BB mastery" but when that belt is attained A) by video or B) with no hard work behind it, well, to me it just does not have the same meaning compared to someone who worked their butt off in the dojo.  

"Hmmm....why should I spend "X" amount of money and "X" amount of dollars, when I can spend half the time and half the money and earn my "Black Belt"

Mike


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## dsp921 (Oct 7, 2005)

This thread is 10 times longer than most threads that try to deal with a serious MA topic, what's that about?  I guess my opinion won't fall to the popular side, but what does stores offering this toy really matter?  Who cares?  Does it change what you know, how you train, or your skill level.  I would hope not.  I couldn't care less what other people are doing, it's not worth getting worked up about.


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## DavidCC (Oct 7, 2005)

"I dont believe many 5 year olds who play with that know the difference between "Real" martial arts training and "play" martial arts training. Most of them lack critical thinking skills. They are FIVE"


My 5 yr ol daugher is fully aware of when we are playing at fighting and when she is training for real.  But she's special  

Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot.  And sonce when is the opinion of an idiot important.  The kids of an idot have bigger problems than this.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 7, 2005)

_Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot_

 By that rationale, any parent who buys their kid a little casio keyboard with instructional book hoping their kid will learn to play piano is an idiot, too. They are not, they just don't know better.

 I'm a semi-professional musican with 20 years of experience playing. Any non-musician parent could do a lot of things that they think will help their child to learn to play which are *totally* worthless and I could sit back and just say "well, if you thought that toy would seriously help our child become a musician, you are an idiot" But, I can't do that, or I won't. My position when people ask me about learning to play is to try to give them good advice about practice and lessons and good equipment, not to think of them as idiots because they fall for marketing hype.

 Stop thinking like an expereinced matial artist who knows the difference between 'real training' and 'make believe' and start thinking like a parent who's only exposure to martial arts is a Jackie Chan movie whose kid just got beat up on the playground and wants to help them out and *doesn't know what real martial arts training is about* 

 Parents who fall for the marketing of toys like this are not idiots, they simply don't know enough about the subject to discriminate between 'toy' and 'real', especially when the 'toy' markets itself as 'real',  and probably don't know who to ask for advice or even how to ask questions.

 Like as has been mentioned, how many adults take Tae-bo and cardio-kickboxing classes and such who think they are actually learning how to defend themselves? They are not idiots, they just trust their instructor because they don't have any frame of reference to know if their instructor is being straight with them or not.

 How many martial artists on *this board* have mentioned before that they once took lessons from an instructor when they were beginners and, as they progressed, learned their instructor really didn't know what he was talking about? Beginner's, people with no experience or background in a subject, are not idiots; they just don't know what they don't know.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> People are getting all wound up over a toy, thats aimed at kids?
> 
> I mean, I can understand it at the LitterBox forum, afterall, it's a bit over their heads there, but here? Man, I thought folks here were a bit smarter than that.
> 
> ...


Nope, disagree.  I think it has been well established that toys are ok, fantasy is ok and even important in a child's growth.  It is the "instructional" component, and the implication that a child can learn real martial arts skills thru this toy that everyone is objecting to.  While it may be obvious to those of us who have trained in the arts for many years, for many people who do not have that experience, it is not necessarily so obvious.  You are right, this has been thoroughly busted and perhaps it's time to move on, but I think it was a legitimate move, to bust this one.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> Yeah and Tae Bo is stupid on that level too!


agreed.  gullible public.


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2005)

Bester said:
			
		

> the herd needed thinning.


Been thinking this for a long time...glad someone finally said it.  heh heh heh


----------



## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot_
> 
> Parents who fall for the marketing of toys like this are not idiots, they simply don't know enough about the subject to discriminate between 'toy' and 'real', especially when the 'toy' markets itself as 'real', and probably don't know who to ask for advice or even how to ask questions.


I guess we all are trying to educate them, or at least that is where our efforts should be aimed.


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## DavidCC (Oct 7, 2005)

FearlessFreep said:
			
		

> _Any parent who beleive the claims on this toy is an idiot_
> 
> By that rationale, any parent who buys their kid a little casio keyboard with instructional book hoping their kid will learn to play piano is an idiot, too. They are not, they just don't know better.


I think there is a flaw in your comparison.  perhaps if your example was, "the parents who buy their kid a fisher price plastic piano..."  With a little casio keyboard somebody *could* learn to play songs on a piano... but on a sesame steet toy piano, they could not.  So your example is not erally "by that rationale". 

OK so is this the scenario?:
some 7 yr old kid gets beat up by a bully (who's what, 9?).  His mom buys him this toy, and he plays with it non-stop.  He watches the dvd 100 times until he drives his mom crazy.  He doesn't use proper foot position and so if he kicked as hard as you he would break his toe in a sparring match.  He thinks he has learned to "kick ***", punch and kick like Jet Li.   He stopped trying to sleep in his spider-man mask and now wants to wear his gi to bed.

3 weeks later the bully tries to beat on him again.  Will he fare better or worse in the second conforntation with that bully??  My money is on "better",  if only because of his increased confience.  And honestly can he kick hard enough to break his toe against some kids ribs?  Sure he's still scared but he thinks "karate master!" and punches the bully right in the mouth and tries to kick him in the solar plexus and hits his thigh.  Most 8 yr old bullies would have had enough right there.  Easier kids to bully somewhere else.  






> as they progressed, learned their instructor really didn't know what he was talking about?


I'm curious, if the instructor really didn't know what he was talking about, how did the students progress?  what does that say about the sources of true progress?  what implications does that have on the issues raised in this thread?


----------



## FearlessFreep (Oct 7, 2005)

_I think there is a flaw in your comparison. perhaps if your example was, "the parents who buy their kid a fisher price plastic piano..." With a little casio keyboard somebody *could* learn to play songs on a piano... but on a sesame steet toy piano, they could not. So your example is not erally "by that rationale". _

 I submit that you are an idiot : )

 If you think you can learn to play piano with a little casio keyboard and an insruction book, then you are the same idiot as a parent who thinks that their kid can be a karate expert using this toy.

 Casio keyboards have shortened ranges, by more importantly they keys are not the right size and they weighting is not proper.  You might be able to learn to peck out a few songs but that's a far range from being able to play a piano.  In terms of actually playing piano with any sort of competance, a casio keyboard and a sesame street toy are almost at the same level (partially because I've had little ty pianos and, yes, you can pick out and learn tunes on them)

 Per example, I play synth in my band.  I play a Korg X-3, which by any measure is a pretty good synth, a professional level instrument, with full size keys, but I cannot play piano.  When I sit at a piano and try to play, the weighting of the keys throws me off and the notes have different resonance and sustain that I'm unable to control and I don't know how to properly use the damper pedals.  I can play keyboard, but I can't play piano, but I'm an experienced enough musician to know the difference

 Being able to learn to pick out a few songs is to being a piano player as learning a foot kicks and punches is to being a 'karate expert', as the toy claims.


 No I don't think you are an idiot really, but I see your statements about sesame street toy versus the little casio keyboard (which, depending on the model is either just a toy or just barely above it) and learning to play some songs to actually learning to play piano, I'l admit that it reminds me a lot of experienced martial artists talking about non-martial artists in the sense that I don't think you have the experience to judge what tools are needed to learn to play music, or what those tools can, and cannot do, but...I don't think you are an idiot either.  But that proves my point; parents who don't know MA don't have the background to judge the difference between a 'toy' and 'reality'.  If you think a parent that would fall for this is an 'idiot' then...well..

 If  the goal is 'to play a few songs and to have fun making music and learning music', then the casio keyboard is fine.  If the goal is to actually be a piano expert then...it's a waste of time and may as well start of right.  If the goal is to get some exercise and have a little fantasy fun, then the toy is fine, if the goal is to become a 'karate master' and learn kicks, blocks, etc.. (like the marketing claims) and well, actually to defend yourself, then it's a pretty short-lived waste of time

_Sure he's still scared but he thinks "karate master!" and punches the bully right in the mouth and tries to kick him in the solar plexus and hits his thigh._

 Now, why am I having flashbacks to conversations about the use of sport sparring techniques  in street fights 

_
  I'm curious, if the instructor really didn't know what he was talking about, how did the students progress?  _ 

 There is progression in time and progression in knowledge as well as progression in skill.  Most MA that I've seen here who claim to have had this type of background were curious enough and driven enough to seek outsode knowledge and learning as well and as a result they were able to relfect that back in their instructor and realize their instructor was, intentionally or not, not teaching what he claimed to be

_what implications does that have on the issues raised in this thread?_

 Simply that people who fall for the claims in marketing of subjects that they have no background in are not idiots, and it's contigent upong those who do know better to try to help guide those who don't


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## Cryozombie (Oct 7, 2005)

Freep you kind of beat me to it, but the point I was going to make to you was that your analagy was off...

A kid with a casio keyboard and an instructional manual could potentially learn to play Keyboard, but a Keyboard is not a piano.  Saying Keyboard = Piano would be like saying Karate = Boxing

I have a family member who was self taught on a Casio with lightup keys who plays in a band now, and does shows at bars and clubs.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 7, 2005)

_A kid with a casio keyboard and an instructional manual could potentially learn to play Keyboard, but a Keyboard is not a piano. Saying Keyboard = Piano would be like saying Karate = Boxing_

 Agreed. And a Casio keyboard does not have marketing material that purports to teach you to play piano like a "Piano Master" It's the promise of teaching expertise, aimed at thise without knowledge or experience to know better, in a toy that is troubling


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## first123class (Oct 7, 2005)

I don't know if I am the first one to say this, but it looks like he is landing his side kick with the toes.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 7, 2005)

first123class said:
			
		

> I don't know if I am the first one to say this, but it looks like he is landing his side kick with the toes.


yeah, i'd say ball of the foot.  i thought noticing this was just a given, but I guess it's a firsthand account of what you can learn thru this approach...


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 7, 2005)

It was the ball of foot strike with a sidekick and the bad angle of the pivot that I first noticed..


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## DavidCC (Oct 10, 2005)

But don't you think the kid's gain in confidence and his practice punching and kicking (as mis-informed as it might be) will improve his ability to sand up to another kid trying to bully him?


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## chinto01 (Oct 10, 2005)

Who is Tommy Nitro first of all? Second it appears that I took the hard way in studying the martial arts. If I had known this was coming I would have held off on all of those classes that I went to.

In the spirit of bushido!

Rob


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## Flying Crane (Oct 10, 2005)

chinto01 said:
			
		

> Who is Tommy Nitro first of all? Second it appears that I took the hard way in studying the martial arts. If I had known this was coming I would have held off on all of those classes that I went to.
> 
> In the spirit of bushido!
> 
> Rob


I wouldn't be surprised if Tommy Nitro is a cartoon character...


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 10, 2005)

_But don't you think the kid's gain in confidence and his practice punching and kicking (as mis-informed as it might be) will improve his ability to sand up to another kid trying to bully him?_

I would normally be tempted to say 'yes' but...

One idea that gets thrown around here, or a fairly common occurance, is the danger in acting based on a false sense of confidence based on training when attempting to apply that training inappropriately.  I think one of the most-oft used examples is people who do Taekwondo for sport-sparring and when they get in a conflict they do very poorly because there sport sparring gave them confidence in self-defense but the techniques they learn/train/try-to-use are not adequate for the real world.  They had confidence, but it was a false sese of confidence that led them into a situation they thought they could handle, and they couldn't.

The other thread of conversation that comes up is that...technique against a bag is not the same as technique against an opponent.  Kicking drills against an air-filled bag are good for working on technique, but it's a far cry from kicking against a moving opponent, and when you are against a real opponent, they are not going to do what you expect,  or react how you expect.

Hitting a tee-ball off a teemay give someone the confidence then can hit a homerun against a real pitch, and having confidence is much better than having no confidence.  But having misplaced confidence and poor knowldge and technique is more likely to get you in trouble then it is to be to your advantage


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## arnisador (Oct 10, 2005)

I thought Tommy Nitro was a Power Ranger...nothing at www.tonynitro.com yet.


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## FearlessFreep (Oct 10, 2005)

Apparently he's an Irish Wrestler


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## MJS (Oct 10, 2005)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> But don't you think the kid's gain in confidence and his practice punching and kicking (as mis-informed as it might be) will improve his ability to sand up to another kid trying to bully him?



Anything is possible, but who is going to correct the child if she/he is doing the moves wrong??  Whats the use of throwing a strike if its done incorrectly?  

Mike


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## DavidCC (Oct 11, 2005)

It's ben a long time since I was bullied on a playground... but it seems to me that the bullies pick on the easy meat.  Stand up to them once and they go find easier prey.  We're not talking about adults thinking they are Jeff Speakman and challenging a room full of TKD guys.


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## TallAdam85 (Oct 12, 2005)

yea i seen this at target not to long ago there is a bunch of stuff they make now kinda nuts but hey some one is making money and also watering down martial arts


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## MJS (Oct 12, 2005)

TallAdam85 said:
			
		

> yea i seen this at target not to long ago there is a bunch of stuff they make now kinda nuts but hey some one is making money and also watering down martial arts



Thats true, someone is making alot of money off of these products.  Its actually sad to think that people knowingly do this just to make a few $$.  As for watering the arts down, again I agree.  There are people out there that already have a distorted view of what the arts are and things like this IMO certainly don't help much.

Mike


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## Dalum (Jan 6, 2006)

This is bad.  Can't say much more about it.  At least the Power Rangers issue from back in the 90's was about a BLATANTLY obvious Sci-Fi/Fantasy setting.  Flying people, incredible machines, monsters, good vs evil, etc...  This is something that may tell kids that if they watch this video enough that they will be proficient in Tommy Nitro Do.  Well they may be, but it is most likely that it isn't good enough to stand up against anything.  I'm not calling false advertising I'm calling false empowerment.  Man, Target and WalMart have these kits and all the add-ons where I live.  My training buddy, his wife and my girlfriend (who happens to know about jack in the MAs) sees the possible damage that this can do.  Damage to our industry, already marred image and (the worst part) physical/mental wellbeing of the kids that take this thing seriously.  It would be nice if the kids can make that ditinction without talk or proper guidance but we know that there are some that can't/won't.  It's not their fault.  It's just going to create some bumps along the way.

_On a side note:  Heh, the last time I said something like this it was on another board (I play tournament paintball too) and some 15 year old kid that has seen the world and knows all got up in my face and called all others that agreed with me, which is about everyone in the thread, a soccer mom.  I love the greater percentage of maturity here than over there.

I guess I can say more!  LOL!
_


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## Dalum (Jan 6, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I thought Tommy Nitro was a Power Ranger...nothing at www.tonynitro.com yet.



Enter my geekyness...

Tommy Nitro isn't a Power Ranger.  Tommy (the OG Green Ranger) is played by Jason David Frank.  (Yeah, 3 first names.  I believe it's a stage name, I can't remember.)  Being in a predominently Asian household I grew up with a TON of Asian stuff in my home long before it came out here.  Power (Go)Rangers is one of them.  Man the Japanese stuff is WAY cooler than the watered down American stuff.  Anyway, the Green Ranger is probably the ONLY guy that I respect as a martial artist.  I'm sure that besides the career digging grave that he got into by being in this show that he dug, he wouldn't get any lower by doing this.  At least I hope not.  LOL!

Oh yeah, check out www.supersentai.com.  Pretty cool stuff.


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## green meanie (Jan 6, 2006)

I saw this at Target when shopping for the kids this past Christmas and believe me, it made my stomach turn too.

But, just for the sake of argument:

I work out and train with boxers on occasion and they take their art/sport very serious too. In contrast to how we all seem to feel about this nightmare in a box, they seem very pleased when boxing-like toys (i.e. the blow-up clown with the weighted bottom, the huge blow up gloves, rock 'em sock 'em, etc.) come out. They feel instills interest in their sport at a young age.

Should we feel the same way? 'Cause I don't know. I'm trying to, but it sure ain't easy. :disgust:


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## shesulsa (Jan 6, 2006)

Hopefully it will lead in to an interest in the martial arts. Hopefully there will be a good teacher in a good dojo/dojang for the kid with this thing to turn to.  Hopefully it will help a child's interest in martial arts work through its phase and we'll have fewer dabblers.

Who knows?


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## Dalum (Jan 6, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hopefully it will lead in to an interest in the martial arts. Hopefully there will be a good teacher in a good dojo/dojang for the kid with this thing to turn to. Hopefully it will help a child's interest in martial arts work through its phase and we'll have fewer dabblers.
> 
> Who knows?



One can only hope.  ANNNND this may be the original intent of some real Martial Artist that came up with this idea before becoming commercialized to hell.  It's just too bad that the end product is still the end product.  Time will tell.  I just don't want to see this thing on some consumer watch tainting the name of the arts.


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## green meanie (Jan 6, 2006)

shesulsa said:
			
		

> Hopefully it will lead in to an interest in the martial arts. Hopefully there will be a good teacher in a good dojo/dojang for the kid with this thing to turn to. Hopefully it will help a child's interest in martial arts work through its phase and we'll have fewer dabblers.
> 
> Who knows?


 
That _IS_ a lot of hopefully's but that really is all we can do; hope.


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## Drac (Jan 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00085EW1U/qid=1128531545/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-1615936-2399243
> 
> Am I the only one with a problem with this "Toy"???


 
Nope!!!!


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## DeLamar.J (Jan 6, 2006)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00085EW1U/qid=1128531545/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-1615936-2399243
> 
> Am I the only one with a problem with this "Toy"???


It is a little cheezy, but alot of kids need that to keep there attension. Really, the kids shouldnt be there if they are not able to handle a real class, but alot of kids are pressured by the parents, and really dont want to be there it seems. At least at my school. So you have to make it as fun as possible while still teaching them something.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 9, 2006)

Here's a bit of irony:  my 7 year old got one of these from his idolized big sister; so, now, I have to set it up and blah blah blah.  *Sigh*


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## Dalum (Jan 9, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Here's a bit of irony: my 7 year old got one of these from his idolized big sister; so, now, I have to set it up and blah blah blah. *Sigh*



My condolences.  Seriously though...  We are really wondering about the level of "quality" in this product.  Wanna do a review on it?


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 9, 2006)

Truthfully, I've delayed setting it up d/t the obvious hoaxes implied on the box; but, as soon as I do set it up (and, I will have to), I will attempt an impartial review.


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## Dalum (Jan 9, 2006)

On a side note...
OMG!  This is the best wallpaper EVER!
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00085EW1U.01.PT01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


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## Henderson (Jan 9, 2006)

Maybe I'll print a bunch of those and tape them to the dojo floor.  We'll all be experts in no time!


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## MJS (Jan 9, 2006)

Dalum said:
			
		

> On a side note...
> OMG! This is the best wallpaper EVER!
> http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B00085EW1U.01.PT01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg


 
:lol: :lol:


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## green meanie (Jan 9, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Truthfully, I've delayed setting it up d/t the obvious hoaxes implied on the box; but, as soon as I do set it up (and, I will have to), I will attempt an impartial review.


 
Definately. Keep us posted.


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## terryl965 (Jan 9, 2006)

Wallpaper why would anybody want to hurt a wall with this gabbge.
Terry


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## Sin (Jan 9, 2006)

Man I saw that at the mall the other day, it was in KB toys...WTF...anywho...Great wallpaper...although it is not the one I am currently using.


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## Henderson (Jan 9, 2006)

Actually, one of the kids at our dojo got one of these for xmas.  She brought the dvd in to show Sensei.  His blunt review?  "Utter crap!"


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## Sin (Jan 9, 2006)

Man, someone actually spent money on it...::slaps forehead::


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## green meanie (Jan 9, 2006)

Henderson said:
			
		

> Actually, one of the kids at our dojo got one of these for xmas. She brought the dvd in to show Sensei. His blunt review? "Utter crap!"


 
It comes with a dvd? I can only imagine what must be on it...


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## Sin (Jan 9, 2006)

basics...


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## Dalum (Jan 9, 2006)

Sin said:
			
		

> basics...



We sould only be so lucky...


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 11, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> It comes with a dvd? I can only imagine what must be on it...


 
Well, it is crap; from an adult's point of view.  It starts out with very generic CGI to introduce Tommy Nitro, a piebald karate master kid.  He has 2 students onscreen with him and, initially, he takes the viewer through some basics.  Technique is not wrong; but, it is a bit over the top.

I didn't watch the whole dvd; but, it seems ok for kids with no MA experience.  I'll post more later.

Also, the mat we got has dragons on it, too!

Memorable quote: "That's using your Dojo Mojo!"

Not to be confused with...


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## Sin (Jan 11, 2006)

Yeah, I really doubt that there will be anything truely usefull.  Although we need to look at the positive of the item.  It may influence children to ask there parents to let them go to a real karate class of some sort.  Children can even go to a McDojo and get what they need out of it...and then later on in life going to a more...legit place


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## green meanie (Jan 11, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> Memorable quote: "That's using your Dojo Mojo!"
> 
> Not to be confused with...


 
Mojo Jo Jo!!! That's just too funny. :boing1:

And I actually have a mini update of my own. I had a little girl stop by last night who was interested in taking lessons. She showed up to class in the uniform that comes with this toy -how nice of them to give her a black belt. But I gotta say, the positive side of this is it got her interested in taking lessons -which also got her friend and her little brother interested in taking lessons. Now I have three new students, and whether I like it or not, I owe it to this little nightmare in a box.


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## Dalum (Jan 11, 2006)

WoW!  Looks like the hoping is working!


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 11, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> And I actually have a mini update of my own. I had a little girl stop by last night who was interested in taking lessons. She showed up to class in the uniform that comes with this toy -how nice of them to give her a black belt. But I gotta say, the positive side of this is it got her interested in taking lessons -which also got her friend and her little brother interested in taking lessons. Now I have three new students, and whether I like it or not, I owe it to this little nightmare in a box.


 
*shrug*  Jackie Chan's _Legend Of The Drunken Master_ got me interested.  Every bit as unrealistic as Nitro's toy.


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## green meanie (Jan 11, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> *shrug* Jackie Chan's _Legend Of The Drunken Master_ got me interested. Every bit as unrealistic as Nitro's toy.


 
I know what you mean and I think to some degree or another we all were inspired to begin because of something like that. Carradine's Kung Fu and Star Wars are what got me interested. Batman comics were also a big influence. But damn, Lucas is the biggest merchandizing whore on the planet and even he has the good sense not to try and sell a Jedi Knight home study course. I think that's what we're looking at when it comes to something like this. But some good has come from this for me and my school and hopefully that will be the case for some of you as well.


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## DavidCC (Jan 11, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> Mojo Jo Jo!!! That's just too funny. :boing1:
> 
> And I actually have a mini update of my own. I had a little girl stop by last night who was interested in taking lessons. She showed up to class in the uniform that comes with this toy -how nice of them to give her a black belt. But I gotta say, the positive side of this is it got her interested in taking lessons -which also got her friend and her little brother interested in taking lessons. Now I have three new students, and whether I like it or not, I owe it to this little nightmare in a box.


 
Similar story at our school.  Some boy's Mom came to our school and asked if we could host a birthday party for her son, who had been given one of these kits.  My instructor told her we would, for only $50, if she brought all the refreshments, we would do some fun "martial arts' type activities for the kids of 5 & 6 years old.  So, we did some basic animal stances (being Shaolin Kempo and all...), how to do a front punch and a palm heel (they LOVED hitting BOB), and then we tried to break some boards with the palm heel.  None of the kids could do it, but 2 of the moms did LOL.  Everyone had a good time, no cake got into our floor, and we will probaly get at least 2 sign-ups out of it.

-David


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## green meanie (Jan 11, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> Similar story at our school. Some boy's Mom came to our school and asked if we could host a birthday party for her son, who had been given one of these kits. My instructor told her we would, for only $50, if she brought all the refreshments, we would do some fun "martial arts' type activities for the kids of 5 & 6 years old. So, we did some basic animal stances (being Shaolin Kempo and all...), how to do a front punch and a palm heel (they LOVED hitting BOB), and then we tried to break some boards with the palm heel. None of the kids could do it, but 2 of the moms did LOL. Everyone had a good time, no cake got into our floor, and we will probaly get at least 2 sign-ups out of it.
> 
> -David


 
I think that's really cool. I've never had the opportunity to do the birthday party thing. I don't know if that accidently puts us into the same category as clown, magician, and pony, or not but it sounds like a lot of fun.


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 12, 2006)

My boy came downstairs last nigt, after training with Sensei Tommy Nitro, ad showed me several basic moves he learned off the DVD.  He showed me a lunge punch, roundhouse kick and front snap kick.  He then rattled off several karate terms and their meaning.  He was very excited that he learned this from the dvd.  So excited, it seems that he forgot having learned it in class with me. 

The enemies in the dvd, it should be noted, are called Crimson Sausages.  

heheh


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## DavidCC (Jan 13, 2006)

OnlyAnEgg said:
			
		

> My boy came downstairs last nigt, after training with Sensei Tommy Nitro, ad showed me several basic moves he learned off the DVD. He showed me a lunge punch, roundhouse kick and front snap kick. He then rattled off several karate terms and their meaning. He was very excited that he learned this from the dvd. So excited, it seems that he forgot having learned it in class with me.
> 
> The enemies in the dvd, it should be noted, are called Crimson Sausages.
> 
> heheh


 
ROFL!


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## DavidCC (Jan 13, 2006)

green meanie said:
			
		

> I think that's really cool. I've never had the opportunity to do the birthday party thing. I don't know if that accidently puts us into the same category as clown, magician, and pony, or not but it sounds like a lot of fun.


 
It was fun, I taught them the real stuff our studetns learn, and 2 of the kids are already in regular class not even a week later.  Although I would like to learn some magic tricks.


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## jdinca (Jan 13, 2006)

We actually do birthday parties on occasion. We have one tomorrow, in fact. We put on a little demonstration for the kids and then take them through the first introductory lesson. They love it and we occasionally get new students out of it.


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## Hollywood1340 (Jan 13, 2006)

DavidCC said:
			
		

> It's ben a long time since I was bullied on a playground... but it seems to me that the bullies pick on the easy meat. Stand up to them once and they go find easier prey. We're not talking about adults thinking they are Jeff Speakman and challenging a room full of TKD guys.


"I'm looking for a guy. Hes good in Tae Kwon Do, about 5'8, 150lbs. has a tattoo of a spider right here. Know him?" 
"Yeah" 
"Great I need to talk to him. Where is he?" 
"Why don't you leave before you get hurt." 
"I wonder if I can kick your ***? No, not just you.... all three of you." 
"Are you serious?" 
"Are you?" 
"Full contact, not pads." 
"No problem."


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## OnlyAnEgg (Jan 23, 2006)

Just a final note on this ignominious product.  The boy has had the "wave bag" up for a couple of weeks.  He pummels it nearly every day and it's held up remarkably well.


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## Dalum (Jan 23, 2006)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> "I'm looking for a guy. Hes good in Tae Kwon Do, about 5'8, 150lbs. has a tattoo of a spider right here. Know him?"
> "Yeah"
> "Great I need to talk to him. Where is he?"
> "Why don't you leave before you get hurt."
> ...



And nobody has said anything about what movie this is from?  LOL!
Kudos for the quote!


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## bobster_ice (Jan 23, 2006)

My little brother got this for x-mas, it really sux!!


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## arnisador (Jan 23, 2006)

Dalum said:
			
		

> And nobody has said anything about what movie this is from?


 
The Perfect Weapon?


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## green meanie (Jan 23, 2006)

arnisador said:
			
		

> The Perfect Weapon?


 
Ding ding ding! Winner!


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## evenflow1121 (Jan 23, 2006)

Hehe I remember that movie.  1991 something like that.


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## celtic_crippler (Jan 23, 2006)

1990. It was the last movie choreographed by SGM Ed Parker before his death. All Kenpo.


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## Hollywood1340 (Feb 24, 2006)

And IMHO the best MA movie ever! The kind of movie that makes you want to say to your buddy next to you "Stand up....." Heh. You see the techniques as they are and the camera work is steady. True to the art that it showcases and it has Rufio in in it. What more could you ask for in a movie?

"It's not one of those new hippy schools is it?"

"Breaktime guys!"

"I've shown you the dragon but you have not seen him. Experience will be your teacher.....and when you return-" 
"I will be the dragon"
"You will be a man!"

"You didn't kill him"

"You said it didn't hurt to ask?"


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## Gin-Gin (Feb 24, 2006)

Hollywood1340 said:
			
		

> "It's not one of those new hippie schools is it?"


One of my all-time favorite movie lines.


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## AceHBK (Feb 24, 2006)

First thing I noticed was the uniform then he had on Kung Fu shoes....LOL!!


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