# Up and coming students in Hwa Rang Do



## lulflo (Feb 15, 2005)

I have been training in HRD for four and a half years now and have been doing my best to maintain through the belts. White belt was nice because I was able to memorize the information relatively easy. I did have trouble with my motor skills, but who doesn't. 

Orange belt was a step in the right direction, adding on to what I already knew, but I was already feeling the pain because of my training situation. I didn't have a partner to train with except my teacher. I have that test on video, I can look back (through the gaps of my hands over my eyes) and see all the errors I committed and forge ahead to the next belt test on tape. 

Yellow belt was awesome, I wasn't. Again, the misfortune of a student with only his teacher in a 10x10' room to train in. I am very fortunate to have such a great technician as my teacher, however there is no way I would utilize my broken technique on him and risk not having a teacher with both wrists in tact. So on to the tape. Wow, that was just dreadful. I am glad that guy is still my friend, and that I passed that test even with what took place..the techniques I chose to utilize. Let me digress, I was very happy when doing forms, basic eight, kick tests, weapons forms and ki breathing exercises, and not even so much hesitation on the sam bo da ryun and il bo da ryun, but ho shin won sul(son mak sul), that was disgraceful... 

So now hesitantly I arrive at green belt. I actually have a student come and train with me, we get to practice all the techniques together, but because of the limited space in the micro dojang, there is just no way to go full on and follow through with the techniques. Nevertheless, I continue on, once a week at my teacher's house and do my best to follow the guidelines I am given, void of application in a real sense, but I still get to test out to purple belt. Now this is the test I would use to show someone a sample of my participation in this art, I trained with a partner for a majority of the time before my exhibition and he was really naturally talented. That was great.

So after green belt testing, I began having trouble remembering all the new stuff I would be taught. My teacher moved two and a half hours away and I could only see him once a month, if even that - so I just trained harder on the stuff I already knew. Again, the issue is that I don't have anyone to train with. I talked to my teacher and told him that I have a friend who would like to learn HRD and was given the blessing to show him white belt, basically to practice my stuff and allow my friend to train with me. I ended up with a couple of people that would train with me and then they were able to get more information when they would come with me and train with my teacher, so now I have some people to train with. 

Well it was two years later before I tested again and I had the material for both purple and blue belt so I was going to test for brown belt. That was what happened and I passed, it was really tough though and there was a time or two during the testing that I was not sure what the outcome would be, but again I made it. A true testament to the heart of the warrior that I am trying to become. 

So now again, looking at the tape through veiled eyes, I am at the crossroads once again, in competition with myself to have a successful outcome with my red belt test. I feel great with regards to forms, weapons forms and, well that is about all. It's those darn techniques again, no students or locations or time for that matter to get it all dialed in as I would hope to, 7 kicks in 3 seconds -done it once so far, basic tests, huff, puff, huff, puff, need to work on those. I have about 3 weeks to get er' done, wish me luck.

Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Feb 16, 2005)

Best of luck to you.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 18, 2005)

I posted this in another area in the hopes of getting the attention of some HWARANGDO people. 

Does anyone know the origina of the GUM MOO Hyung as a 1st BB requirement for TAE SOO DO? Anyone? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Feb 18, 2005)

That's a good question. Perhaps someone with WHRDA affiliation would be able to answer it. I can tell you that when what I do was called HRD, the hyungs were named after the nine virtues in the Do Kyo Hoon. The white belt form was called Hwarang In Hyung (Hwarang Humanity Form), orange belt form was called Hwarang Oui Hyung (Justice), etcetera. But I am not certified in Tae Soo Do, so I can't really answer your question.


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Feb 18, 2005)

I think I can help with this question.

Actually, Hwarang Gum Mu Hyung is the first sword form in the HRD Black Belt curriculum. I believe that it was a 1st or 2nd Dan requirement. (sorry, I have not kept up the old system in a looong time). 

But anyway, it was performed with one hand holding the sword, and the other holding the scabbard. There are many linear to circular movements, and vice-versa, jumps, spins, etc. To my knowledge, there were 2 versions of this form that I was exposed to. 

You can see GM JBL doing one version as a young man in some demos that were filmed at a temple in Korea during the 60's. 

The other can be seen as performed by Master Peter Gil Kim at a very large martial arts demo in LA in the 70s (unfortunately, the name of the event escapes me). He told me that GM JBL taught him this form, which is very similar to the one JBL is doing, but much shorter. I believe GM JBL was improvising a little as he was being filmed, hence the difference and longer version. 

Master Kim has taught this version of the form to many people since then (including myself). I also believe that the form has been altered a few times since then, and a version was added to the new pre-cursor art they invented "TSD". Most of us "old timers" never got involved with TSD, therefore we don't know much about it, other than it being a TKD replica.

Hope this helps.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## shesulsa (Feb 18, 2005)

Farang, Kuk Sa Nim De Alba.



			
				kuk Sa Nim said:
			
		

> You can see GM JBL doing one version as a young man in some demos that were filmed at a temple in Korea during the 60's.


 There is a still foto that is often used on DJN Lee's website and other materials of him performing a sword form at a temple - he is jumping in the foto.  Did this foto come from that film?

 Thank you in advance, Sir.


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Feb 18, 2005)

Farang!

Exactly. There were several photo shoots, and filming done at this general time. Some of the footage was shot "professionally", and the other footage (that was given to me), is from an 8mm camera that one of the old black belts took. 

There was footage of forms, techniques (mostly Hoshin Son Mok Sul, Kong Gyuk Kibon Sul and Kong Soo Jang Gum Bang A Sul). There was also breaking, and Ki Power demonstrations. It was not just GM JBL, but also some of the other important masters from that era, such as GM Hyun Jun Lee.

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## jkn75 (Feb 18, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> I posted this in another area in the hopes of getting the attention of some HWARANGDO people.
> 
> Does anyone know the origina of the GUM MOO Hyung as a 1st BB requirement for TAE SOO DO? Anyone?
> 
> ...


Any one who is familiar with both Kuk Sool Won and Hwa Rang Do could possibly answer this question: How similar is HRD/TSD Guhm Moo Hyung and KSW Guhm Moo Hyung? In KSW Guhm Moo Hyung is performed empty-handed and the motions simulate sword and knife techniques. It is also required to receive 1st Dan. From Grand Master De Alba's description, they sound different.


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## glad2bhere (Feb 18, 2005)

Yes. I had understood that both KSW and HRD had a GUM MOO hyung but that they were different in both their focus as well as execution. Somehow I am getting the idea that there is a "GUM MOO" out there which is related to older sword practice and this was something I was very keen to run down. My understanding is that the KSW people do swordwork but that it is work or forms constructed by In Hyuk Suh. In like manner I was wondering if the GUM MOO of the HRD was constructed by GM Joo Bang Lee.   

Of course, the obvious question that would then follow would be what material did these gentlemen draw on to produce their hyung. Right now I am about open to anything that might point me in a productive direction.  Thoughts? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Feb 19, 2005)

glad2bhere said:
			
		

> My understanding is that the KSW people do swordwork but that it is work or forms constructed by In Hyuk Suh. In like manner I was wondering if the GUM MOO of the HRD was constructed by GM Joo Bang Lee.
> 
> Of course, the obvious question that would then follow would be what material did these gentlemen draw on to produce their hyung. Right now I am about open to anything that might point me in a productive direction.  Thoughts?
> 
> ...


These can be really loaded questions that would unleash a huge can of political worms, that I will definitely stay away from. "HRD vs KSW vs HKD", "who taught who, who was in charge", etc. That's OK. I've got my opinions (based on 1st hand experience), that I'll just keep to myself. I will however try to shed light on some aspects of your questions. 

True, the Gum Moo Hyung in both HRD and KSW are distinct, and one is an obvious weapon set, while the other is not (but may be, if so interpreted). It is very interesting to note that these two forms were taught at black belt level, and yet are so different. 

The first sword form of KSW is "Jang Gum Hyung", and it is VERY different from the Gum Moo Hyung of HRD. To me this alone illustrates the limits on how much (or should I say how little) these leading masters (JBL & IHS) actually "shared, or taught" with one another as their respective arts took more formal shape.

In my educated opinion, the Jang Gum Hyung (and other KSW forms) are more basic in nature, whereas the HRD set(s) tend to be more complex. Not to say one is better than the other. Just that there are very clear differences. Once again, this re-enforces the notion that both these masters did not share as much as is often believed. 

There could be a myriad of sources from which these gentlemen drew upon in developing their respective arts (above and beyond the history they provide). In particular, the sword aspects (Jang Gum Sul). Personally, I have seen several distinct versions of Korean sword arts, that may or may not, have been references. I will keep my opinions on this subject to myself ("Can of worms"). The arts that I have seen are:

- HRD - Jang Gum Sul (Combination of soft and hard / straight and linear / single and two hand / forward and reverse grip movements / single and double swords, etc.)
- KSW - Jang Gum Sul - similar to the previous, just a little more basic in the movements
- Kum Do - Various systems that resemble Japanese Kendo (in more than one way)
- Do Hap Sool - Jang Gum Sul - Similar to the HRD set, with much more "Chinese influenced movements", such as one hand sets, double edge, broad sword,  LOTS of circular movements, and a whole bunch of interesting bladed weapons, not commonly seen. You can see pictures of these weapons on my website under the Images - Do Hap Sool section:

http://www.dsystem.com/images/DHS22DblEdgSwrdHookHatchet.html

or 

http://www.dsystem.com/images/DoHapSoolindex.html

- Hae Dong Kum Do -  I have seen a couple versions of this system. That appear to me (for lack of a better term) as a combination of the HRD and DHS methods - Mr. Robert Young has some great videos from Korea, check out his website to purchase them:

http://www.concentric.net/~sdseong/kmar.index.html

- Sun Moo Do - Jang Gum Sul -
- Ship Pal Gi - Jang Gum Sul -
- Chosun Do - Jang Gum Sul -
- Tae Guk Kwon - Jang Gum Sul -

These last ones, I only have a limited exposure to. I'm sure there are others that escape me at the moment. But the bottom line is that there exist a huge amount of knowledge of Korean weapons, and sword arts in particular, that can be found today. Some appear much more modern than the history(s) given, but this may or may not be of importance, depending on the individual student. Personally, I could care less. I care about the value of the art and the sound structure of it's information and philosophy.

OK, I hope this helps.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## glad2bhere (Feb 19, 2005)

Thank you very much for your information ---and for your "diplomacy". I don't think I could handle one more energy-charged political wrangling.  

I will probably have a few more questions but let me chew on what you have provided--- and thansk again. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2005)

Kuk Sa Nim, 

 That was _very_ enlightening.  Thank you for posting.

 Farang,

 Georgia Ketchmark


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Feb 19, 2005)

"Cha Ma Ne Oh" 

(this is how I was taught to say "you are welcome when I was in Korea. Only becasue I know there are other versions taught).

:>)

It is my pleasure to have wonderful discussions on one of my favorite subjects: Korean Martial Arts.

:>)

BTW, How is Master Corona? I haven't talked to him in too long now. It is a shame that the fact that we left the WHRDA has now unfortunately NOT given us an excuse to see one another. I miss him. He is such a great teacher, and talented practitioner. Please give him a huge FARANG! from me and all our FMS family.

I was Farang before, I'm Farang now, and I will always be Farang!

With brotherhood...


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## shesulsa (Feb 19, 2005)

Kuk Sa Nim said:
			
		

> BTW, How is Master Corona? I haven't talked to him in too long now. It is a shame that the fact that we left the WHRDA has now unfortunately NOT given us an excuse to see one another. I miss him. He is such a great teacher, and talented practitioner. Please give him a huge FARANG! from me and all our FMS family.
> 
> I was Farang before, I'm Farang now, and I will always be Farang!
> 
> With brotherhood...


 I last saw Master Corona at the black belt promotion in November of last year and he was doing quite well. I must say I unequivocably agree with your sentiments!

   I would be honored to pass the message along, Sir.  And I should say, "Kom map sam ni da." :asian:

   Farang!


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## lulflo (Feb 19, 2005)

I guess we are all up and coming students in HRD. I was also at the belt promotion in November at KJN Corona's dojang. It is very interesting to read the postings on everything that says Hwa Rang Do. I am seeing a common theme; politics and not a very cozy feeling. I am relatively new as a student (four and a half years) and have quite the sheltered view of this whole situation, but it seems taboo to say certain things or talk about certain things. I will have to assume that I just don't know better and accept things as they are from an outsiders point of view. I guess what I am getting at is that I would like to find a way to get to a place (or thread) where the conversation is about those things that can be discussed and there is less and less censorship. Again, I am very interested in the conversation posted as it is surely the history that I should be aware of, and I do not wish to offend anyone and show the utmost respect to my brothers/sisters/teachers with any and every comment that I post. So, with all that said, hello to all and I hope we all can come together at some point and train hard as I am sure we all do. Be well.

  Farang - Larry


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Feb 19, 2005)

You bring up some good points Larry.

First, sorry for deviating to Korean Swordsmanship, from your original topic: The path of Training. (these threads have a tendency to do this).

You are right in that we are all students and will always be learning as long as we have that desire. The day we stop learning is the day we die, and I mean this both in the figurative and literal sense. This is why martial arts are a way of life. Once we think we have it all figured out, and start becoming too full of ourselves, it will come back and remind you how small and insignificant we all are. If we pay attention, we will learn how little we actually have learned, how much more we need to learn, and how big the sea still is.

There are many paths to the top of the mountain. Some are straight, curved, smooth, and rough, etc. yet, as long as we persevere, they all lead to the top. In the beginning, as we stand at the foot of the mountain, we can not see the top, nor the sides, much less anything beyond it. "The mountain is the entire world". It is not until we do what must be done to reach the top that we can then see that there exists other mountains. Some even bigger. It is up to us to decide wether to settle for what we have accomplished, or suck it up and reverse our steps, climb all the way back down, and across to the next mountain, and start all over again. Hopefully, we will have learned better ways of climbing by then.

Sorry for getting so philosophical.

As for the politics of HRD, I am sorry to say that they were there before we got here, and will most likely continue, because unfortunately they are not limited to HRD, but to all martial arts. This is a sad statement about an endeavor that is supposed to develop humility as well as strength. But, for some reason we continue to be plagued by the pitfalls of the human personality, such as greed, fear and ego among other things. What was the famous quote supposed by Suam Dosa about "large egos"? 

We are not perfect, and I count myself very much in that category, but that should not stop us from striving to surpass our own shortcomings. Lord knows we already have the challenges of life to overcome, yet the true test is when one can master oneself (also meant on several levels).

For those of us ex-HRD people, the taboo of politics is not something we invented nor fixate upon. As long as you do your level best to live up to the higher principles that we constantly expound, then you are on the right path. This is not an easy path, and as a matter of fact is the hardest path.

So, we need to keep it real, and keep on keepin' on.
Farang.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## lulflo (Feb 21, 2005)

Kuk Sa Nim De Alba, 

 Your response means a great deal to me. I have only just reached the clouds of Mount Hwarang and realized that above the clouds the mountain is twice as high as I thought...and there are others that are equally as high and higher. 

 What a task it has been to maintain all that has been taught to me. If I would have known at the beginning all that I know now (and all that I still don't know), I can't say that I would have even attempted to begin, but I am sure glad I did. It really is true to say that old saying, the more I know, the more I realize I don't know. Really, just think, we are microcosmic in regards to the universe, here we are on earth doing our time, and there is so much out there that isn't even an idea that has been thought. I envision myself like a grain of sand on the beach, I may never know what is on the other side of the ocean. But still, the emphasis on what is happening at this very moment is so great, in my opinion, because we are affecting everything in some way...I guess going off on tangents is universal too 

 As far as politics go, I guess being an up and coming student in Hwa Rang Do means that I need to be prepared to discuss and deal with politics in some form, so I am glad that I was able to get a response from a person who can formulate responses that are very coherent for me. I have basically been shielded by my own ignorance and lack of diligence in investigation. It is really interesting to me and I think it is wise for me to understand the information, I just do NOT want to be jaded by information that may change my perception without my own cognizant choice. I just don't know how to discuss things without being the blunt dummy that I can tend to be in that type of circumstance. 

  Again, I am truly grateful for your response and hope to be in contact with you again in the future.

  Kam sa hap ni da.

  Farang - Larry


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## TomakaStud (Feb 23, 2005)

Farang to all,

My name is Tom Capaldi, i am also a student of KJN Corona's. How are you SheSulsa? Have you tried to spin kick any cups lately...??? : ) (sober i hope...)

As for politics i would say those issues are better left to those who have a stake in them...those who were there through the years and have first hand knowlege of all that happened. We all feel the need at times to speak for those who we have sided with as they are our teachers and our mentors...but it should really not even be up for discussion from the new generation of HRD... that is just my opinion, i find that staying away from subjects i have no stake in or have not been asked to deal with is the best way to keep from speaking out of turn... As some of you know i have gone to bat with others i feel were speaking out of turn against KJN and the other banished WHRDA members.... not for anyones gain but to put a stop to those who would seek to spread rumors for their own side's gain...

All that aside...

Kuk Sa Nim De Alba, i am afraid i am only familiar with Modern Farang Mu Sul from what i have found out of your web site. I do know that KJN has spoken of you before in only high regard and it is a pleasure to meet you (as personaly as it can get electronically anyways). I am impressed with the ciriculum that you have developed, from the real life "what works" approach and philosophy to the traditions of forms and the ever so important ground work as well as fire arms familiarity. I believe those are all ever so important in a ciriculum for the situations one faces in the street today. I look forward to further discussions on the board.

Larry, have we met? Forgive me if we have but i feel i would have remembered some one in your training situation. I have been training with KJN in phx for i believe 4 years now (not so long i should have lost count but did) and was at the Black Belt testing in November.

Farang,

Tom Capaldi


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## lulflo (Feb 24, 2005)

Hello Mr Capaldi,

 I don't know if I have been introduced to you or not. I was at the presentation of belts and certificates at KJN Corona's dojang on Bell Road in November. I was the one on the far right side with a camera in my hand. I do have film of just about everyone there so if you are there, I could review the tape and find you. It would be great to cross paths someday soon! 

 As for the thread here, anyone got an idea how I can keep from huffing and puffing my way through a brown to red belt test. I think I am going to be doing two short forms, two times each on each side, then many of my techniques, seven kicks in 3 seconds, Duk Hyung, Staff form, Kama form, Saber sword form, sparring, grappling, breaking, verbal test and whatever else gets thrown in the mix. I have been trying to do some running and going over kwon bup, etc. But no matter what I do, I am dying after I get done with the first two short forms? Anyway, I'm sure there will be a way, and I will find it. 

  Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Feb 24, 2005)

Larry, I had a similar problem a couple of years ago.  Actually, my stamina still suffers lags.

 I kicked up my training a few years ago and no matter what I did I was winded after about three long forms and out of breathe after four.  No matter how often I worked out or rode the bike I never made progress.  I went to the doctor and talked to him about it and he gave me two inhalers.  Apparently all the lung infections and congestion and allergies left me with unresolved congestion way down deep in my lungs.

 Are you calling Hwarang In Hyung and Hwarang Oui Hyung "short forms"?  We call those "long forms."

 If you're getting winded after what I call two short forms ... you probably should see a doctor pronto.

 Plus there's all kinds of other considerations ... your age, whether or not you smoke, any history of asthma, your breathing pattern at rest, your breathing pattern in general, your breathing pattern when performing.

 Please talk to your teacher and see a doctor about training up for this and for future tests, and also please post your progress here.

 Also, if you're willing, I'd very much like copies of any pictures you took.  If they're not digital, I'd be happy to pay for copies.


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## lulflo (Feb 25, 2005)

Thank you Shesulsa.

 I too call In Hyung, etc. a long form. I am referring to the short forms (I believe they are the kwon bop #5 and #6 for half black with a jump spin and low spin at the end?). I am not sure, as I have not achieved that level yet 

 I can actually do them individually somewhat okay, it is just that during the testing, with all the added stress and the fact that I have do do them two times on each side for each short form, I tend to get quite winded. I will definitely talk with my instructor about breathing patterns and a physician about the possiblity of lung issues - Thanks again.

 As far as photos go, I do have some digital pics and also a video of the whole thing. Please let me know how you would like to receive them, it would be my pleasure.

 Also FYI, if you speak with KJN Corona, I passed on a VHS tape of a Kama form - that's me, it is horrible, but any criticism is expected, I mean welcome, ma'am. I put some more stuff on tape tonight to review for my own criticism and well, I still have some polishing to do to say the least, and those seven kicks in three seconds are UGLY. I will do my best though and I'm sure to be in contact with you soon on those pics.

   Farang - Larry


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## lulflo (Mar 2, 2005)

I am hoping to find some students in Hwa Rang Do so I can compare and talk about criteria, etc. 


Anyone else out there, please let me know.

Farang - Larry


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## glad2bhere (Mar 2, 2005)

To anyone who might be interested...... 

There is a discussion going on the AIKIDO JOURNAL Net regarding breathing.  If anyone has any in-put regarding the breathing drills or techniques they use in HwaRang, I would love to hear your thoughts.  I am most intersted in where you think your traditions came from, what the execution is,  how many variations you have and so forth.  Anyone? 

BTW: If folks are skittish about talking about things in the open, I understand. I don't want anyone getting into hot water for spilling technique information if you are not suppose to. On the other hand, if you want to, but just would rather not do it publicly you can PM or email me and it will stay confidential. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Mar 2, 2005)

Larry, may I ask who is your instructor?


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## lulflo (Mar 4, 2005)

Hello Shesulsa,

I think it wise to ask them for permission to place their names on a public forum prior to posting it, but I sent you a private message as I am familiar with you. I will ask them if they are okay with that and place the answer if anyone else is interested 

Hope to talk to you and others soon.

Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Mar 4, 2005)

lulflo said:
			
		

> I am hoping to find some students in Hwa Rang Do so I can compare and talk about criteria, etc.
> 
> 
> Anyone else out there, please let me know.
> ...


 Larry, please feel free to PM me for discussion of this material.  Thanks.

 JKN Ketchmark


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## lulflo (Mar 4, 2005)

Thank you JKN.

I will definetely take you up on that. I hope to get to talk to you in person some day as well. Have a great day!

Farang - Larry


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## lulflo (Mar 8, 2005)

Four more days to train for my red belt test.  I am really nervous.  If anyone has any thoughts on a training regimen that I can use to make sure that I am not too sore or tired for the test on Saturday, my ears are wide open.  Diet, exercise, anything please, stress has taken over and I am almost ready to ask to test at a later date.

 I don't know what else to post, but please, anyone who reads this before Friday, Hwarang Do or not, please help.

 Thank you,

 Farang - Larry.


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## shesulsa (Mar 8, 2005)

Larry, I'm so sorry.  I guess I was waiting for you to post again on your doctor visit.

 I sent you a PM with my suggestions and I do hope they help.

 Please post back and BEST OF LUCK!


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## lulflo (Mar 9, 2005)

Thank you JKN.


I will heed your words and let you know how it works out after I get back. Thank you for putting the time into helping me, I didn't visit the doctor, so I hadn't been able to respond in that respect, however, I have been doing a more rigerous workout that has seemed to expand my lung capacity and I have not been nearly as tired/winded recently. I will do my best and move through it!

Thank you again.

Farang - Larry


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Mar 9, 2005)

Hello Larry,

I meant to write you earlier, but have not been able to, for this I apologize. What I wanted to offer in terms of some simple advice is: (and forgive me if this seems too simplistic or you've not had success with this before)...

-Try to maintain a calm mind and controlled breathing. This means to go thru your forms and techniques slowly with a calm/focused mind and very relaxed breathing pattern. Then add intensity to your movements, while trying to keep the same measure of control. 

I know that once you get a real intense pace, the slow and relaxed breathing will seem impossible, but it is not. Here is where your breath control from meditation and breath control while standing/moving/in-action must come together. This is the "moving meditation" portion of the training. 

Remember to unite Mind-Body-Spirit. The body is a mere servant of the mind. What the mind says to do, the body responds. The mind is controlled by the spirit (Ie: breathing). Think of someone who is really stressed or in some state of panic. What is their breathing like? What is their decision making like? Compared to say, a chess player. His breathing is quite relaxed and under control. His mind is capable of making many complicated decisions. And finally, the Spirit is literally controlled by the body. The body regulates the breathing patterns that will ultimately affect the mind, etc. It is all connected you see. Strong Mind, Strong Body, Strong Spirit!

With this method you will learn to become "one with yourself". One of the greatest aspects of meditation. Develop the Wae-Yu-Nae-Gong (Outside  Soft  Inside Hard) philosophy. This applies to all areas of your person. True balance my friend. 

Try to remember that once you are testing, (or competing, fighting, etc), to maintain the degrees of controlled breathing and stillness of mind that you use in the less stressful training sessions. Keep that perspective, and use it during your test. Treat it like another workout. Use strategically placed strong, loud, Ki-Haps!...Remember, this is an expression of your spirit. Your teacher, and judges will take note. Block out all the distractions and do your thing". Even if this means your pace may seem slower. It always does in your minds eye. To the outside viewer, this may not be the case. Trust me, your teacher would rather see you go through your routines and self defense sets with focus and control, rather than very fast, and unfocused.

Don't let anyone, nor anything get between you and your dreams. They must therefore be very clear to you. Put that goal in the front of your mind and daily routines, until it is accomplished. Some goals are a lifelong process (as they should be), while others need to be smaller and more readily accomplishable...Have a plan, if not, MAKE a plan, and stick to it.

Anyway, some food for thought for you. I hope it helps. Good luck to you.

Farang! 
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## glad2bhere (Mar 9, 2005)

"....Treat it like another workout...." 

Boy, is THAT good advice!! 'Cause if you are real honest with yourself thats all it really is. Don't tell me you have never worked out on the mat while some visitor was watching your moves intently, right? So you are doing a class with people watching and unless you are The Deity you are not going to know or be able to change what they think of your performance no matter WHAT you do. You're gonna do another class and their gonna watch and thats the way the evening will be. Listen to that advice. 

oh, and best of luck... 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## lulflo (Mar 9, 2005)

Thank you for your advice Sir(s),

I have noticed that when I am calm and relaxed while going through my forms and techniques that my breathing is also calm and my mind is focused. It is when my mind is racing that my breathing is fast and my body fatigued. I will remember that and practice. I have noticed however, that occasionally a mental distraction occurs and I have an extremely hard time re-focusing my breath and slowing down my thoughts. It is this issue that I have problems with and have not been able to remedy in the past. In regards to the people that watch, I have way too much on my mind to pay much attention, I just want to honor my art (I need to train harder 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





 ). I will report back after the test to let you all know how it went.

Again I thank you all for taking time out to help me and if there are further thoughts about this, I am VERY interested in hearing them.

Farang - Larry


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Mar 9, 2005)

lulflo said:
			
		

> ...I have noticed that when I am calm and relaxed while going through my forms and techniques that my breathing is also calm and my mind is focused. ....
> It is when my mind is racing that my breathing is fast and my body fatigued. I will remember that and practice. I have noticed however, that occasionally a mental distraction occurs and I have an extremely hard time re-focusing my breath and slowing down my thoughts. It is this issue that I have problems with and have not been able to remedy in the past.



Hello Larry,

I think we've hit on something here. You quite the mind, by calming your breathing (not the other way around). When your body is fatigued, your breathing will suffer, affecting the mind, etc. Remember, they are connected. Mind-Body-Spirit, They help one another just as much as they hurt one another in reverse order. This is in line with the Asian healing arts philosophy of the 5 elements concept: Fire, Water, Wood, Steel and Earth. They can support one another or work against one another.

I have two more suggestions: Lots of Meditation to learn to control your mind and breathing, and lots of focused, and varied speeds of running, which helps in all categories. I'm talking about quality running, not just jogging, or sprinting. Remember to have a purpose.

Second is to not get overwhelmed with our forms and technique sets. It's a kind of like "not seeing the forest for the trees" type of situation. 

Short forms are relatively easy, right? They run about 10 - 20 moves. Long forms contain much more steps. But if you break them down into several short forms, it's just a matter of then connecting those pieces. 

Also, don't let all the hundreds and even thousands of techniques scare you. If you think that you can not know more than a few hundred things (ie: techniques), just think of how many things you actually do in your daily life (daily tasks). Compound that by a week, month, year, etc. We're talking thousands upon thousands of tasks. Sure most are repetitious, but guess what?...so are the techniques. 

Don't focus on the techniques as an end, but merely as an example of a concept, that in turn leads to many, many ends. Find the concept in your techniques and the techniques of your concepts. So, for example, if you are grabbed by the wrist, you can defend with this series of locks that follow this energy flow (such as an inside wrist lock connects with a straight arm bar, to a lever, etc), and these others that follow another energy flow. All things are based on energy and controlled by a philosophical concept. It's just a matter of adding and subtracting, or adapting to a different philosophy or strategy. Dont limit yourself to only a few hundred or thousand possibilities. And dont short change yourself. Remember, there are only 8 notes in music, yet how many melodies can there be? Some (same songs) interpreted in a completely different fashion.

There are only so many ways to kick, punch, lock joints, throw, etc. There are only so many pressure points on the body. All humans contain the same basic components. It's really NOT that hard. I know you're probably thinking, "that's easy for me to say", and it is easy to say, but once you understand the concepts behind things, you open up a myriad of opportunities. Your creativity and determination are the only things holding you back.

This is why our art is truly "The Art of Endless Options"...

Farang!

With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## kwanjang (Mar 10, 2005)

Boy, I hope folks know how lucky they are to get such great info from GM DeAlba.  Great stuff KSN  I hope we can get together again real soon.  I can bring some of those hard to get cigars for you lol.


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## lulflo (Mar 10, 2005)

You are much appreciated KSN De Alba.

I absolutely realize that you are taking time out for me on this thread. With that being said, I am very happy to have such a vast amount of techniques to learn and it is not so bad for me on the memorization, the tough part for me is that I don't have any partners to do the follow up/through with. I train once a week in my teachers house and his shoulder is bad, the other higher level student that goes there with me has a fractured wrist that he has had for 6 months and has not been able to help me out. The other students that I train with are not at the level yet to go full out on my techniques. So I am okay with the beginning of the techniques and I have gone over the ending of them in slow motion, but when it comes to the test, I will be showing the full technique at full speed and with someone who I have only been able to work with for that morning. Hopefully it will work out.
I can almost put my mind around the comments on energy, I get the concept, but to put it into my reality will definitely require your suggested meditation exercises (being a married man with two kids, it is hard to find any peace 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




). I did recently start running and walking on a treadmill and that has helped me tremendously with my lungs.

I hope to get more into "following the energy flow" in the future and it sounds like that is a major key to my success in techniques. 

This was all AWESOME information KSN, Kam sa hap ni da!

If anyone else has information, great or small, I am certainly listening...Thank you.

Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Mar 10, 2005)

Larry, who will be on your panel?  Is the test at KJN's school?

 I wish I'd known about your partner situation earlier.  It's time to start hooking up with other students and working out with them as much as possible - especially now that the next test after this one will be your black belt test.  I would approach SBN Bailey about the situation and ask him how he would like for you to handle this on your test.

 Use your visualization in meditation and the breathing pattern and by all means follow GM DeAlba's suggestions.  You'll do fine.

 Heh.  We'll be seeing a BB test thread for you soon enough!

 Farang!


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## Kuk Sa Nim (Mar 10, 2005)

kwanjang said:
			
		

> Boy, I hope folks know how lucky they are to get such great info from GM DeAlba.  Great stuff KSN  I hope we can get together again real soon.  I can bring some of those hard to get cigars for you lol.


You are too kind Sa Ja Nim. Thank you very much. I miss you too, and would LOVE to do another "Cubanski"...ha.ha.

It is my pleasure to try and offer what help I can. And Larry, you have a standing invitation to visit us in SF or any of my seminars, so we can explain in greater detail some of these concepts.

Brother Rudy, we MUST hook up this year. The sooner, the better. Hopefully you can make it to our tournament in May?....That would be awesome! We are also having our annual Black Belt Camp on the following day (IE: Sunday), I would love to have you join us. Remember, you are family here! There will be TONS of my FMS black belts in town, some flying in from NY, Washington, LA, Puerto Rico and maybe from Europe too. It would be my honor for them to meet and train with YOU.

I also would like to pursue getting some swords from your student...I believe in the Portland area?...

So, OK, we'll talk some more.
With brotherhood,
Grand Master De Alba


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## shesulsa (Mar 10, 2005)

Two days left, Larry!  How's it goin'?


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## lulflo (Mar 11, 2005)

What, me stressed, not at all, cool as a cucumber. And if you believe that, I have some great ocean front property right here in AZ that is for sale. But seriously, I have finally overcome a difficult situation with my sabersword form so I am feeling a little better about that. I went to class tonight and was able to calm my breathing somewhat, but I hope it is enough for the higher elevation in Payson. The dynamic duo (a couple of students at the dojang in Payson) will not be testing this weekend due to an unfortunate accident - all are okay, just unable to test for a month or less, so it will be a bit shorter of a test and less time to catch my breath between each of the criteria of the test, so I guess that can be a plus or a minus. The plus is that it will be over faster, the minus of course was already mentioned. The panel will include SBN Bailey and KJN Rotroff as far as I know. I am feeling a little bit more confident on the whole thing, I could have postponed it due to the misfortune of my fellow brother, but decided to face it now as it has already been put into motion. I wish I had more time, but then again, I can't wait to begin. Thanks for the inquiry.

    Much appreciation to all for your support.

    Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Mar 11, 2005)

Now, Larry, you say you're getting ready for your red belt test tomorrow - so you're brown and testing for red, correct?

 So you have another color belt test before your big one - my mistake.

 Now, Larry?
 .
 .
 .
 .
........................................B R E A T H E.........................................

... and have a great time!  Let us know how it goes.​


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## lulflo (Mar 11, 2005)

Breathing would be good. I will have fun, maybe I should just smile the whole time and remember that I am with my family and they like me no matter how much I screw up 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





...And that is correct, brown to red for this one.

Thanks for the support JKNK.

Farang - Larry


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## lulflo (Mar 13, 2005)

Hooray! I survived and successfully achieved the rank of Red Belt/Sash. Thank you all for your support, the advice was just what I needed. I did end up with the mindset of "just another workout" and aside from the first part of the test where I was still kind of tight, I warmed up and finished with a clear conscious.

  Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Mar 13, 2005)

Congratulations, Larry!  Good going!!


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## lulflo (Mar 19, 2005)

So here I am again. I am in the middle of a quandry. I was able to learn the Red belt form in less than one hour and commit it to memory. Now I am aware that I could not possibly know all of the nuances in the form within that short period of time, but my question is; Is it better to learn small parts of the form with the bits and pieces that will formulate the final result, or is it okay to learn the whole thing and then make the changes as I progress? Any opinion is welcome. Thanks.

   Farang - Larry


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## shesulsa (Mar 19, 2005)

Larry, that's a good question.  It is my humble opinion that this most likely depends upon the learning style of the student and the teaching style of the instructor.  We all know that perfect practice makes perfect, so it could be argued that it is important to learn nuances early on and practice them.  Then again, it could also be argued that running through basics until moving meditation occurs that nuances introduced at that time could lend a deeper understanding of the form.

 Have you tried learning different forms from each different perspective yet?


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## floweringknight (Mar 19, 2005)

Hello all. Larry, you have heard the saying: You must learn to stand before you can walk, and again, learn to walk before one can run? If your teacher tried to teach you all the little subtleties and nuances in techniques and forms the very first time, believe me, 99% of it would go right over your head (and it does). You have to learn the gross motor movements before you can start to perceive the rhythms and energetics. Like learning the ABC's before you learn to write. Techniques are the same way. I give you _son mok sul_ as an example; I'll bet your technique is still evolving, changing and growing. The only real difference between a beginner and an expert are the subtlties and nuances in technique (joint manipulation, kicking, etc.) and some experience...And congratulations on your recent promotion to RED SASH!!!

Farang - SBNB


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## shesulsa (Mar 20, 2005)

Welcome to MartialTalk, SBN Bailey! :asian:  And thank you for posting!


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## lulflo (Mar 20, 2005)

Thank you Sir. I believe that answers my question. I guess each teacher has their own style of teaching and I can definitely respect that. I think that techniques are certainly a different situation, especially when trying to understand minute subtle changes and angles to bring about advantage and strength. Your example of yellow belt technique is a perfect illustration for the need to slow down and learn small pieces at a time. Even after performing those techniques for several years, I am constantly improving (at least I hope to be  ).  Thank you for your support and also to you SheSulsa.

  Farang - Larry


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## floweringknight (Mar 20, 2005)

As a fellow _"up and coming student"_ I pose this question: What is wrong with the traditional way the color belt curriculum is set up? What is right with the traditional way the color belt curriculum is set up? All input is welcome and appreciated. Thank you.

Farang - SBNB


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## glad2bhere (Mar 21, 2005)

Pretty much anybody who knows me knows that I am much against the rank system. I am not saying that I am against "testing". I am saying that the rank system was imported from the Japanese traditions. It seems that the underlying purpose for the system is to facilitate sporting and competitive applications and as a revenue generator by requiring regular assessment with attendant fees. The Koreans never had a rank system. You simply trained until you got good. Then, if you wanted to use your skills you took a governement exam to demonstrate how competent you were. I think if you ABSOLUTELY, POSITIVELY, GOTTA HAVE  some kind of system, I would rather see the sort of certification/licensure system. You have one cert for the rank beginner. One for the dedicated practitioner. One for a person able to teach and one for an individual who has accomplished learning all the material of the art. Now true, I practice an art that is non-competitive so maybe others who have grown used to colored belts won't find such an approach helpful.  Just some thoughts. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2005)

SBNB, are you referring to the old curriculum versus the new curriculum?


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## floweringknight (Mar 21, 2005)

Yes - I am comparing the old curriculum with the new (think KJNC). Bruce, thank you for your input and suggestions. 

Farang - SBNB


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## shesulsa (Mar 21, 2005)

floweringknight said:
			
		

> What is wrong with the traditional way the color belt curriculum is set up? What is right with the traditional way the color belt curriculum is set up? All input is welcome and appreciated.


 Sir I am not qualified to say what is wrong or right about either syllabus, but I could give some feedback based on my observations.

 The traditional syllabus is long and copious, albeit thorough.  One can see the necessity to train the mind well for memorization purposes, certainly.  I used to wonder about introducing offensive knife techniques at purple, but then good knife training takes time.  Assembling the techniques at each level for a certain type of attack has pros and cons, in my humble opinion.  I'm aware that other systems gather the less complicated techniques for a variety of attacks together for beginning belt levels and graduate the complexity of the techniques from there.  I'm not sure if that would enable the traditional practitioner to memorize more easily or not, or if it would indeed enable the progression in an easier fashion, it's just an observation and a curiosity of mine.

 May I ask you what your thoughts are, sir?


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## floweringknight (Mar 22, 2005)

Of course you may ask. Let me preface this by stating that one of the things I truly love about this art is that it embodies both _quality_ and _quantity_ (um & yang). Here is my thinking; and I will use son mok sul as my example: Out of 30 techniques against a wrist grab, there are bound to be a half dozen or so that will come naturally easier and flow better than the other techniques; especially at first. These may or may not be the same 5-7 techniques for everyone. I like to call these the _bread-n-butter techniques._ Now, if you decide to condense the curriculum, how do you choose which ones to leave? It is a statistical certainty then that you will also be cutting out certain people's "bread-n-butter" techniques. This is limiting. How can you teach 2 out of 35 jok bang a sul for example? It doesn't make sense to me.

Does this make learning the art much more difficult? *YES!* If someone thinks it's too hard and they don't want to spend the time and effort; ie. _give blood, sweat, and tears_, then I feel they should go down the street to jim-bob's mcdojo and get their BB in 6 months.....and be happy. You know the old saying: You get out what you put in! I believe the end results speak loud and clear! 

Now the kids curriculum? Different story.......sort of.

Farang - 
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 SBNB


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## glad2bhere (Mar 22, 2005)

I can't agree more!!! But there is also another danger as well. 

As was mentioned, out of say 35 techniques a certain handful may be my "bread-&-butter" techniques and these may not be the same as the person standing next to me might choose. There is a real risk that were I to condense a curriculum I would stay with what works for ME. This would be a very human thing to do. Now here is the danger. 

If I drop material to condense the curriculum and someone comes to me to learn, what that student will get is a curriculum that reflects MY combat needs. And since I have dropped the other material that didn't work for ME, my new student does not have the option of selecting from the original set I was exposed to but only my SUB-SET. The next very Human thing to do would be to learn what he can of MY set, true enough, but then he starts looking around for other material outside of what I offer and the whole issue of cross-training and the corruption of the original art comes up. 

I teach Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido but I would be the first to admit that there are techniques I teach that I probably would not use for myself. I teach the techniques because people who come to me need to get the privelege of being able to make the same  (or different) choices as did I. Further, I owe my art the respect of teaching what I was taught so each successive generation AFTER my student gets exposed to the same choices. FWIW. 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## lulflo (Mar 22, 2005)

In response to fewer techniques. I would like to submit my two cents. 

I have to say that at red belt, I have learned many techniques and realize how many more I have to learn. I can honestly say that I have not mastered any techniques (after only four and a half years), but I do have a good working knowledge on a handful from each belt and the rest are simply a work in progress. I cannot imagine what it would be like to only have a few techiques to draw from and be a red belt. I feel like I might have a better working knowledge on those fewer techniques, but when it comes to understanding the energy flow of techniques in any situation, I feel like I would be missing out, besides that, I don't know how I could compare to another student who has been given all of the techniques that could have been taught. Also, how would I be able to pass on the full art to the next generation? These are all troubling questions to me and I fully intend on teaching what I have learned to others when the time is right. I respect others for their ideas and talents and would not speak ill of anyone, I can only say what I would like for me and my students.

Farang - Larry


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## floweringknight (Mar 22, 2005)

I couldn't agree with both of you more! That is _EXACTLY _why I still am teaching the traditional curriculum. On the other side of the coin: My art and my teachings are constantly evolving; they have to. I have made some minor adjustments to a few things. All of this has been more of a small semi-reorganization of some parts than actual removal, etc. of knowledge. Changing the order of a few forms, and modifying some of the kicking requirements, for example. If anything, I am adding to the knowledge base, as opposed to subtracting from it! *RAISING THE BAR* is how I like to describe it! Thank you guys again for your input.


Farang :asian: - SBNB


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## Bob D. (Mar 23, 2005)

Hello Chris, How is everything up in the woods? Good I hope! I agree and disagree with what you say. I'm going to chime in here later. I think this deserves it's own thread though. 
Later, Bob


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## floweringknight (Mar 23, 2005)

Hello Sir - I am doing great thanks! How is everything with you and Trish? I am looking forward to an awesome Sulsa camp this year. Please be my guest and start a new thread regarding old vs new curriculum; you know I respect and value your opinions tremendously. We will miss you both at the picnic this weekend!

Farang :asian: - Chris


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## Michael (Mar 24, 2005)

Hello and HwaRang to all of you,
  I'd like to affirm that I feel that there is little wrong with the 'old' (JBL) curriculumm, but, it changed the way people learned from before, creating a new generation to argue over its appropriateness. Any changes now reflect our need to address what we feel is necessary to evolve and redress doctrinal holes. What we are doing has to be 'tried and tested' and eventually will prove to have holes itself.
 I like the system but have made some changes and have radically added to my students pre-requisites to Sash standard. I want to offer them more (than I got) for preparation but not give them more than they 'earn'.
 One thing that I find interesting to note is that no matter what the Kub or colour belt syllabus, when I meet 'awakened' Dan holders they are of the same ability. Certainly a syllabus may prepare some with more for a knowledge base but when everyone approaches the same proficiency level. We all kind of level out.
 My last conversation with KjnC was to the effect that kub ranks are my choice of preparing my students (both a priviledge and a responsibility that I take very strongly). Sash ranks are all of us in this together. Lets get it together and lift ourselves up.


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## floweringknight (Mar 24, 2005)

Michael - Thanks for posting; it's always good to hear from another Hwarang brother. I feel the same way about my students' preparation. In fact, I remind them consistently, that color belt tests are merely more than a quiz. The real test is for black sash - and then the "real" training begins. And I love the "we're all in this together" mentality! Great stuff. Michael, what kinds of things have you added to your color belt syllabus (sp)?

Farang :asian: - SBNB


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## shesulsa (Mar 24, 2005)

I'd like to take a moment to welcome floweringknight and Michael to MartialTalk.   Most new users will usually open a newbie thread in the Meet N Greet area, but you two gentlemen have just dived right in, which is way cool and, with all due respect I'd like to use a phrase I'm rather known for here on MT if that's all right ... YOU SO TOTALLY ROCK!  

 Thank you for joining and conversing.  It's nice to see.  Enjoy MT and happy posting! :asian:


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## floweringknight (Mar 24, 2005)

Thank you - it is a pleasure to be able to converse freely with my fellow martial brothers and sisters. This is awesome!


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## Michael (Mar 25, 2005)

FaRang to everyone, thanks for the welcome.
 You asked me about the changes I've made. Well I'm still making them. I warned my students that the newer syllabus wouldn't become stable for a while and it would take a year for most of them to absorb all the changes (then I'd do the 2nd draft).
 I added 4 ranks to the curriculum (the beginning), borrowing heavily from a number of other doctrines, I kept the last 5 ranks almost (almost) untouched.
 I created slimmed down versions of the first 8 ranks and started the numbers off low and built them up as each rank progressed. 4 ranks for novice, 4 for intermediate test for 'Scholar's rank' (interim Class leader certification) then 5 ranks (purple->halfBlack {slightly modified}). 
 Green was removed completely, Yellow was split among 2 of the intermediate ranks, White and orange cut down and amalgamated into 2 of the novice ranks. Some techniques were modified and others left as they were. Four forms added (virtuous names added), others reorganised to reflect my judgement of appropriateness for the new syllabus.
  You would recognise everything but not the order.
   I'm fairly happy with the result so far and the students are working the new syllabus better than I'd hoped.
 I'm rewriting the study guides that I give them to prepare for the written exams, to expand the level of general martial arts knowledge. Anecdotes and stories included.
 Sort of Academic and dry but I find it to have breathed more life into my own practice and appreciation for the fundamental levels of knowledge.


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## glad2bhere (Mar 25, 2005)

OK, since you opened this can of worms....... 

Micheal: 

When you made your changes and in keeping with my earlier comments about teaching priorities, would you be willing to tell us what your goals for your students (and maybe yourself) are as you make the changes? Proceeding from that maybe you might talk about how you first saw the learning goals when you started and how those goals were impacted over time. Then you could say a bit on what you see your learning/teaching goals are now and how these are reflected in the changes you have made. I know these are not easy things to say in 25-words-or-less but I really think this would be good for people to talk about and reflect on rather than just talking about adding this and removing that.  Thoughts?  Comments? 

Best Wishes, 

Bruce


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## floweringknight (Mar 25, 2005)

Michael - That sounds like a lot of re-organization. It will be interesting to see the long-term results. I totally like the idea of written tests. I have kind of neglected that portion, as of late. 

Bruce - Great questions! We all need to be asking ourselves these questions - and on a regular basis! You got some gears turning in my head that's for sure.


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## lulflo (Feb 7, 2006)

So Here I am again, Hello to all.

I just passed up an opportunity to test from Red Sash to Half Black. I am not too sure of all of the reasons, but there was one specifically that I am thinking of. I have two martial brothers that were testing from Brown to Red. I will inevitably be testing with them somewhere down the road because they have come up so quickly and my pace has been much slower. I could have tested and continued to be a belt rank above them and it would have proved nothing. Now I have another 6 months to a year to practice and polish the material I have learned as a Red Sash and also brush up on all of my skills. I have also begun supplementing my training with BJJ and by going to several other HRD teachers to learn from more than just one. The good news is that even my BJJ teacher is a black belt in HRD so I can learn more info from him too! I don't really know the point of all this, just some info on what is going on in my training career. I have been practicing harder by myself now than ever and I am trying to squash my ego issues by just settling into the fact that I am a lifer of the MA and will benefit from finally having fellow students at the same rank to study for the Big test when it comes. Any comments are always welcome.

Farang - Larry


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## lulflo (Feb 19, 2008)

This thread has been dead for awhile.  I am getting geared up for my black sash test in April.  The two guys I ended up waiting for are going to be testing with me as planned and it should be a great test.  Thankfully, my instructor has set up a pretest situation so I will be more prepared for the real thing.  Eight hours?  what can we do for eight hours?...

I am a student and am happy to be one.

Farang - Larry


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