# How do many shooters sucessfully defend against the the head punch?



## Yew (Sep 14, 2008)

The general move that people always mention as a counter for a shoot or takedown is to hit the head of the person attempting it.But I've seen on UFC many times the fighters sucessfully take down their opponent and it's too fast for me to see if the shooter actually countered a hit to his head or if the opponent just tried something else instead .Are there any videos where you can recommend me to see which shows how the shooter using a move to evade or actually counter the other person trying his head?

I also see that those who attept a take down prefer to do that towards an opponent who is kicking first.But what if the opponent is just standing still?The option should be don't attept to take him down if he is not moving at all?


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## arnisador (Sep 14, 2008)

Yew said:


> The general move that people always mention as a counter for a shoot or takedown is to hit the head of the person attempting it.



I think that'll just get you a broken hand! You might be able to catch a person with a knee, but sprawling is the name of the game here. Keeping the head down and moving quickly usually defends to punch pretty well.


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## Tez3 (Sep 14, 2008)

Tbh I've never heard that the defence for takedown was to hit the head. You may catch them with a knee as has been said but usually sprawling or avoiding is the counter move. Besides it depends on the rules, there may be no strikes to the head allowed so you have to have another defence.


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## jarrod (Sep 14, 2008)

it depends on the shot & the set up.  look up some clip so kazushi sakuraba during his prime, he had a terrific low outside single leg that was very hard to defend.  too low to punch him, & even if you sprawled he'd get behind you.  

if you're talking about the double leg takedown (probably the most common in mma), it's all timing & set up.  you won't see guys shoot from a long distance unless they are very quick or the opponent is really out of position.  a good tactic is to change levels & shoot under your opponent's punches.  if he's being defensive, you would throw your own punches to draw his hands up, then change levels & shoot.  angle is also important; if you shoot straight on you are more likely (but not certain) to run into a knee or an uppercut.  if you circle to their lead leg, you'd most likely hit a single.  if you circle to their rear leg, you'd normally go for a double. 

hope this answers your questions,

jf


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## lklawson (Sep 15, 2008)

Because of the timing of a shoot, it's hard for the defender to get good power behind his punch.  I've seen matches where the defender tries to do a "stop-hit" punch but it tends to be weak and ineffective, when it manages to (kinda-sorta) "connect" at all (a rarity, truly).  Additionally, the MMA shoot is usually taught with hands up, protecting the face (or, at least it USED to be taught so, therefore I assume it still is so).

As has been said, the sprawl is the defense against the shoot, unless you are a savant with guard work and pull guard (which you're not garanteed to get, btw), but it's not as easy to make anything out of guard as it used to be.  It's still an "agressive" possition, but it's not the dominator that Gracies used to make it.  Opponents are familiar with it now.  Opponents know to look for Triangles and such (not that it doesn't still happen, mind you).

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Skpotamus (Sep 15, 2008)

The only places I've seen a punch used as a takedown defense is in martial arts schools with little to no ground experience.  

A good wrestler won't shoot unless they are close enough to touch your chest with their palm and most won't shoot unless they're actually closer (clinch range).  Just the range makes landing a punch hard when the person is changing levels (odds are you'd punch the top of their head and break your hand).  

If you get someone desperate and they try to shoot from outside (due to you stuffing their shots and hitting them alot or just plain inexperience with wrestling), you might be able to use lateral movement and a good jab to keep them from getting body contact on you, however, this requires a good, snappy jab and good footwork (see Georges St. Pierre and Anderson Silva for examples).  

You'd be much better off working your sprawl with underhooks.


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## Yew (Sep 16, 2008)

lklawson said:


> Because of the timing of a shoot, it's hard for the defender to get good power behind his punch.  I've seen matches where the defender tries to do a "stop-hit" punch but it tends to be weak and ineffective, when it manages to (kinda-sorta) "connect" at all (a rarity, truly).



I take it that he is off blanace because of the shoot that's why his punch is weak?Instead of a punch would an eye gouge be a safer alternative for the defender in a real conflict without rules?


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## Tez3 (Sep 16, 2008)

Yew said:


> I take it that he is off blanace because of the shoot that's why his punch is weak?Instead of a punch would an eye gouge be a safer alternative for the defender in a real conflict without rules?


 
Very few 'street' attackers are going to shoot (unless it's with a weapon!) It's hard to punch someone who's trying to take you down that way, if skilled at it they will have their head tight against your thigh to stop the guillotine, if it's not tight then guillotine is probably a good try for you, of course there's defences against that as well. One of the things that makes MMA fascinating, a game of physical chess!


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## Skpotamus (Sep 16, 2008)

An eye gouge will have trouble working for the same reasons a punch would, even more so.  Just landing a punch on the face during a shot is difficult, landing a finger jab (much smaller target) will be much harder to land.  

Even with an inexperienced person trying to football tackle you from fairly long range (kickign range), they'll have their head bent down, making the eyes and face inaccessable.  The only strikes you could try are a short knee to the face, or an elbow to the back of the head.  Neither one will work well though.  (I've never seen the elbow do anything to stop a takedown when they were still legal, and I've only seen a handful of knees actually work (typically by very good strikers), although they are spectacular when they do).  

I don't know if it's the wrestling inlfuence or what, but I saw a lot of people getting tackled in fights in high school, and even a few good takedowns from wrestlers.  Just about everybody fighting threw a punch or a knee at the person and ended up on the ground because of it.  You see the same thing in MMA.  

You're kind of playing into the TMA/striker trap.  You're trying to find a striking solution to a grappling problem.  The truth is, you need to be able to neutralize your opponent's shot BEFORE you can strike, or you'll just end up on the ground in a bad position.  The best way to do that is by keeping your opponent off balance with quick, snappy strikes (jabs, inside leg kicks), while constantly moving laterally.  Never stand in one place and DO NOT load up on your strikes.  When they do shoot, work on getting your underhooks and sprawling hard on them.  From there, you can punch, elbow and knee and actually do damage with it.  To do otherwise is to invite a takedown.  

As always, YMMV.


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## Yew (Sep 16, 2008)

Ok.now i'll just post a last question in this thread. 
 Let's say someone attempts just a one-leg-takedown and then you sprawl.He still has his arms around that joint area around your front left leg after the sprawl all you have is your right back leg's knee on the ground,what's the next counter you can use?If he drags upward and  pulls the front leg further you'll end up doing a split by force.


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## lklawson (Sep 16, 2008)

Yew said:


> Ok.now i'll just post a last question in this thread.
> Let's say someone attempts just a one-leg-takedown and then you sprawl.He still has his arms around that joint area around your front left leg after the sprawl all you have is your right back leg's knee on the ground,


That's not a successful sprawl.  That's a failed sprawl and you'll be dumped directly.




> what's the next counter you can use?


Depends on what direction he dumps you.




> If he drags upward and pulls the front leg further you'll end up doing a split by force.


That doesn't happen very often as a takedown after a successful Single-Leg.  It's sorta a newbie thing to do.  You want to do a takedown so you'll turn your body to torque your opponent off balance while cutting his base support out.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## arnisador (Sep 16, 2008)

He's probably off to the side using his head in your ribs to off-balance you. It happens very quickly, and even if it fails there is almost always a way for him to take advantage of how it fails (unless he just plain misses). What you do next depends a lot on just where he ends up!


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## Skpotamus (Sep 16, 2008)

If you find yourself in that sprawl position with them having control of one leg, you can do a couple of things.  The first is to simply push their head away from you with both hands while trying to sprawl out more.  This puts some distance between your and them and can let you pull your leg out (see just about any UFC, it's a common defense to the single leg).  You can also crossface your opponent and step around them to go for a neck crank or a choke hold.  

Honestly though, Any of those take a lot of live practice with someone watching to let you know what you're doing wrong.  Your best bet for dealing with grappling based attacks is to study some grappling with a good teacher.  You can teach yourself to a degree, but it's easy to let mistakes creep into your techniques and if you're only training with other novices, it's hard to learn how to defeat better grapplers.  

As always, YMMV


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## allenjp (Sep 19, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> If you find yourself in that sprawl position with them having control of one leg, you can do a couple of things. The first is to simply push their head away from you with both hands while trying to sprawl out more. This puts some distance between your and them and can let you pull your leg out (see just about any UFC, it's a common defense to the single leg). You can also crossface your opponent and step around them to go for a neck crank or a choke hold.
> 
> Honestly though, Any of those take a lot of live practice with someone watching to let you know what you're doing wrong. Your best bet for dealing with grappling based attacks is to study some grappling with a good teacher. You can teach yourself to a degree, but it's easy to let mistakes creep into your techniques and if you're only training with other novices, it's hard to learn how to defeat better grapplers.
> 
> As always, YMMV


 
I agree, if you want to be a complete fighter (in he ring OR on the street), at some point you are going to HAVE to learn to fight ON THE GROUND. Not just avoiding takedowns but fighting on the ground. The truth is that there just isn't a surefire way to defend a takedown from a skilled grappler. If someone wants you on the ground, chances are you'll end up there...I thought the Gracies had proved that point long ago, but there still always seems to be some confusion about it for some reason.


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## tko4u (Sep 19, 2008)

They set up the shot with strikes or fakes. Besides that, being fast and having the strength to drive THROUGH the shot helps a lot.


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## SensibleManiac (Sep 19, 2008)

I've seen the punch counter to the takedown successfully used on the street.
And also I think Dan Henderson against Renzo Gracie successfully used, I think it was an uppercut to counter the shoot.
Basically the way to prevent the punch counter is to properly time the shoot, usually by faking a punch before shooting or just timing your entry off an opponent's strike as already mentioned.
A good idea that works well is to get into the habit of blocking with your elbow or both elbows while entering.
This takes practice to cordinate and pull off quickly but works well.
Randy Couture has a good DVD series that features some good ideas for shooting, the clinch and timing.


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## zDom (Sep 22, 2008)

allenjp said:


> If someone wants you on the ground, chances are you'll end up there...I thought the Gracies had proved that point long ago, but there still always seems to be some confusion about it for some reason.



I disagree.

I think several fighters have demonstrated over the last few years in UFC fights that by training to avoid the shoot they are able to avoid being taken to the ground more often than they are taken to the ground.

What the Gracies proved was that most martial artists (at least those willing to show up for their challenges) had developed tunnel vision and not considered or prepared for the possibility of someone using takedowns &#8212; or what to do once taken down.

And that they and those who train with them are particularly good at using this type of attack strategy.


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## Skpotamus (Sep 22, 2008)

zDom, the point is though, that the fighters that have been able to avoid the takedowns regularly in MMA are all themselves good to great level grapplers that spent years developing their ground skills.  Not just people who tried to learn how to sprawl to avoid the takedown.  

Chuck Liddell  is a division 1 wrestling champion
Anderson Silva is a BJJ black belt
Cung Le is a division 1 wrestling champion and San Shou world champion
GSP was a canadian olympic wrestling hopeful and alternate I believe.  
Dan Henderson - Wrestling Olympian (silver medal I think) 
BJ Penn - BJJ black belt


Rounding out your skillsets with good ground fighting and grappling training is an invaluable asset and the only sure way to learn how to defend from grappling based attacks.


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## Unkogami (Sep 22, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Cung Le is a division 1 wrestling champion and San Shou world champion
> .


 

Not sure about D 1, as he only wrestled in junior college. He did very well there, however.


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## allenjp (Sep 22, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Chuck Liddell is a division 1 wrestling champion
> Anderson Silva is a BJJ black belt
> Cung Le is a division 1 wrestling champion and San Shou world champion
> GSP was a canadian olympic wrestling hopeful and alternate I believe.
> ...


 
Don't forget the fact that GSP has been training with Gracie Barra BJJ in Brazil for some time now...and Lyoto Machida, who is touted mainly as a Karate master, and is certainly very skilled at avoiding takedowns, is also a BJJ blackbelt...

And I disagree with you Zdom, most stand up fighters that train to avoid takedowns train those techniques with other people who also are not trained and practiced grapplers. Try it, if you want...and I am not being facetious (hope I spelled that right), go down to your nearest wrestling gym, shootfighting academy, or BJJ dojo, and try them out. The usually will be happy to oblige you. I know that at the BJJ dojo where I train, we get people from other disciplines that come in to see if thy can defend takedowns. While they definitely have techniques they have trained, they are usually very surprised at just how diffcult it really is to avoid when someone skilled in grappling wants to take them down. 

The fact of the matter is, it just ain't as easy as it seems to those who don't train grappling.


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## zDom (Sep 23, 2008)

Now wait a sec &#8212; make sure you are arguing with what I said.

My comment was only regarding the claim (Posted by allenjp) that "If someone wants you on the ground, chances are you'll end up there...I thought the Gracies had proved that point long ago, but there still always seems to be some confusion about it for some reason."

As I said above, "several fighters have demonstrated over the last few years in UFC fights that *by training to avoid the shoot* they are able to avoid being taken to the ground more often than they are taken to the ground."

I don't dispute that the best place to learn to avoid a takedown is from a grappling art. You guys are arguing against something that I didn't say in the post you quoted.


In fact, this is something I realized on a personal level before the first UFC was fought: that even though I had some natural talent and ability at striking, TKD wasn't really going to help me against "wrestlers" (is what I was thinking at the time).

So a month after I started TKD, I jumped on the chance to study hapkido to address that vulnerability.


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