# How many kata is too many kata?



## Sauzin (Jun 9, 2003)

I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it.  How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit?  Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata?  Lets assume the normal time constraints of a single working male.  For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32?   With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10?  What is your reasoning?  

Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 9, 2003)

One Kata is too many if your training time is limited.  What do you get by studying Kata?  I'll tell you.  You get good at Tai Chi.  I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata.  I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring.  So should you.


----------



## kenmpoka (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Sauzin _
> *I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it.  How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit?  Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata?  Lets assume the normal time constraints of a single working male.  For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32?   With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10?  What is your reasoning?
> 
> Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.
> ...


It depends on who you're teaching. What is the purpose, Competition or self defense?
In order to choose a few, first you have to study them, find out the bunkai and then choose a few to avoid repetition. This goes for empty hand and Kobudo. Catch 22!


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *One Kata is too many if your training time is limited.  What do you get by studying Kata?  I'll tell you.  You get good at Tai Chi.  I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata.  I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring.  So should you. *




Once again the un-informed, narrow minded, uneducated anti-kata faction rears its head.
The poster of this thread was not asking whether kata had worth or not but how many kata is enough.
So why dont you go over to the kenpo section or MMA section if you want to bring up that debate.


----------



## angrywhitepajamas (Jun 9, 2003)

depending on what it is that you want to learn from the style. Kata can be a method of training your self in the varyations of the basic movements while still having a solid core set of well practiced movements. I my self have only enough time to practice eight kata a day with quality. But My focus is more upon depth of knowledge rather that the breadth (ie my memory is poor so I would be lost if there was 34 kata in a particular style).
Don't get me wrong breadth of knowledge is good, but its just not my thing.

thanks for your time and now I gotta go back to practice.


----------



## Jill666 (Jun 9, 2003)

Jeez I'll work on one or two at most, and give the others a run-through.

I probably have about 30 (including weapons) which is too many- I feel I've studied six years and if I never learned another kata in the next six years I wouldn't run out of material. There's a boatload of lessons waiting to be discovered in all those forms.

Depending where you are in your study- I lean toward lucky thirteen.  

My opinion. If you do all that other stuff- sparring, lifting, studying distance, timing, strikes, pressure points, gravity, etc. I really think 13 is plenty to go back to time and again.

Ok, I'm wide open- I picked a number, now bring it!  

:samurai:


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2003)

All are One. 

Firstly, you shouldn't judge a style by how many or how few forms they practice.  They practice the number they practice, period.  If you like that style of MA, then study it and don't worry about how many forms you will have to learn.

Secondly, forms do not teach you "tai chi," regardless of what Mr. Discouraged-By-Poor-Teachers says.  When you have a teacher that knows what forms are for, how to dissect and interpret what they contain, then the forms provide you a method of visual cues to remind you how a technique is meant to be performed, it will teach you rhythm, distance and timing of techniques, as well as providing conditioning and endurance training.  Many things accomplished through one exercise.

Thirdly, you will never, ever "master" all the forms of your style.  After you have learned them all, you will likely gravitate toward one or more of them as they will suit your personality and method of fighting.  Learn them, dissect them, and milk them for all they hold.  When you have learned a form thoroughly enough, you will find the breakdowns of other forms to be far easier than they were before.

In the end, All are One.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## redfang (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Once again the un-informed, narrow minded, uneducated anti-kata faction rears its head.
> The poster of this thread was not asking whether kata had worth or not but how many kata is enough.
> So why dont you go over to the kenpo section or MMA section if you want to bring up that debate. *



Not all kenpo practitioners are anti-kata. Please don't generalize a sentiment across all practitioners of an art.


----------



## jfarnsworth (Jun 9, 2003)

I preferrably want to learn more than what I have. Even though each are repetitious they provide answers to understanding whichever art you practice. By repetition I mean stances, strikes, blocks, kicks etc. are repeated over again. This just engrains muscle memory plus give you more practice on each category. That's just my take. BTW between the forms and sets I have total 18. Not counting the TKD forms that I rarely practice. Alsol, I'm not trying to toot my own horn here but that's how I feel.:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 9, 2003)

Please, keep to the topic of the thread--for those arts that use kata/forms, what is the ideal number of forms to practice?

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


----------



## Bob Hubbard (Jun 9, 2003)

Right now, I'm working on 1 open hand and 3 stick forms.  The 3 stick forms can be assembled into 1 larger form, once you learn the flow of things.  

The open hand form is interesting.  I've pulled some knife and stick and possibly a sword varrient out of it so far, and am still digging into the possibilities.

I dont see the sence in 'collecting' forms, but I do see it in really 'seeing' em. 

How many is too many?  when you are simply dancing, and not learning.  Even the simplist form has something to tell us, if we listen right.

:asian:


----------



## arnisador (Jun 9, 2003)

I started a similar thread in the CMA forum some while ago. I find the question interesting. See also this thread, which has another version in this forum I believe

Modern Arnis has 8 empty-hand _anyo_s (kata) and four with weapons (single stick). The weapons ones are fairly simple; the empty-hand ones are drawn from Shotokan. Forms are _not_ stressed in Modern Arnis, but I have also studied Okinawan Karate (kyu levels only) where of course they are.

My personal opinion w.r.t. Karate is that, where forms are concerned, less is more. But then, I used them more for training specific moves than for inspiration as to strategies and applications--I was not only an underbelt but it was before the resurgence of popular interest in grappling-style bunkai. In the latter case one might prefer an encyclopedia.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 9, 2003)

I am with Yiliquan1 on this...

That is why having a "master" in more than one art is so "foreign" to me...

You will never master your system...so pick one or two forms to master and REALLY work on them...(of course you need to learn the other forms...but the depth you go into will never be the same as your core forms)...dissect them, look at them from eight directions, look at them backwards...now forwards again with a difference in the distance...what is hidden? look for it.

And, as Yiliquan1 said, once you've begun to REALLY understand one form, the others reveal their secrets, as well...

If you remain a general practitioner, you will never get to the heart of the system.

IMHO
:asian:
chufeng


----------



## chufeng (Jun 9, 2003)

In YiLiQuan, we have a form called GanBaHu...chasing eight tigers...I told Yiliquan1 that it really is the same as Naihanchi Shodan...

WHAT ???

Karate is not the same as CMA...

Yes, it is...

On the surface the forms are very different, but they are very similar when you look at specific movements and applications within the form.

Yiliquan1 has since changed his initial impression of my assessment...he now agrees with me 

My ability to see the similarities came from really learning one form very well...VERY WELL...and applying the lessons of that form to all of my forms...AND, having worked (twice) with Oyata Sensei, in a seminar, I can say that HE showed me how the systems are similar...I remembered the pearls he dropped...and incorporated them into my observation and practice...

Does that mean that spending one, or two, or three days with a  master will make you an adept at the art of the master? NO, of course not...but the lesson can be applied to the things you already do...

All are One...

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## Matt Stone (Jun 9, 2003)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *And, as Yiliquan1 said, once you've begun to REALLY understand one form, the others reveal their secrets, as well...*



I only said that because I learned it from you, Yilisifu and RyuShiKan...  I figure if that many folks say something, there might be a little truth to it...  

As for the Naihanchi Shodan - Gan Ba Hu comparison...  Not only are they similar, but I am using my training in Naihanchi Shodan to unlock Gan Ba Hu for me!  By training on Naihanchi repreatedly, aspects of Gan Ba Hu are revealing themselves through the similarity of movement and technique.

All really *are* one.

Gambarimasu.
:asian:


----------



## yilisifu (Jun 10, 2003)

And THAT kind of in-depth study is how forms are intended to be studied...not just run through quickly so one can say, "OK, I did my forms today."


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by redfang _
> *Not all kenpo practitioners are anti-kata. Please don't generalize a sentiment across all practitioners of an art. *



Have no fear........I realize he is the exception and not the norm. 

His argument is like a broken record in so many threads on so many forums I didn't think it needed to be played again here.


----------



## Kirk (Jun 10, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *His argument is like a broken record in so many threads on so many forums I didn't think it needed to be played again here. *



AMEN!!!!!


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 10, 2003)

> One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.



Geeze, well everyone has their own opinion but karate is kata so if you don't practice kata then your in the wrong forum.  And if you don't think kata trains defense then, well, let me know when your bag starts fighting back, OK?

As far as the rest of the replies, thank-you.  Most everyone here shares my view in general.  Personally I don't understand "Masters" of multiple styles either.  



> Firstly, you shouldn't judge a style by how many or how few forms they practice. They practice the number they practice, period. If you like that style of MA, then study it and don't worry about how many forms you will have to learn



I can't say I entirely understand this statement.   Is this to say that the number of forums in a system is irrelevant?  



> Thirdly, you will never, ever "master" all the forms of your style. After you have learned them all, you will likely gravitate toward one or more of them as they will suit your personality and method of fighting. Learn them, dissect them, and milk them for all they hold. When you have learned a form thoroughly enough, you will find the breakdowns of other forms to be far easier than they were before.



The difficulty I find in this is, with say 80 or more forms, all of my time is spent running through as many as I can in a sometimes hopeless effort not to forget them.  I find that to spend the time focusing or dissecting one or two is to forget one or two other forms.

Would it be appropriate to study the system and then at some given point choose what kata that are best focused on and those that are best left behind in hopes of refining the few, or is it best to just run through as many as you can hoping not to forget one or two?

Thank-you again for this educating discussion.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## chufeng (Jun 10, 2003)

If you continue to run through as many as you can, you can't claim to really know any forms...you are simply imitating the instructor...it is far better to REALLY understand one, two, or three forms than it is to be able to perform 50 or 60 forms...
The number of forms people are required to learn has grown in the last 150 years, or so...one, two, or three was far more common in the past. Trust me, I've been where you're at in your confusion...I used to do what you are doing...and I found out that I really wasn't digging deeply enough. So, I focused on three forms...yes, I had to relearn the others all over again, but when I went back to them, they were much easier to perform and a lot of the stuff I missed in the interpretations became obvious.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## tonbo (Jun 11, 2003)

Great gravy!!!

I would lean to the side that says that 80 forms is a bit excessive, but I could see that each one might have something to teach.

If you have that many forms in the style, talk to your instructor.  See what they apply to, and what the purpose (generally) of each is.  Find out if there are "core" forms (i.e., ones that may act as "keys" to some of the other forms).  Are any of the forms "short" versions of another, or are multiple forms combined into one of the others?  There are many questions to ask, to find out why so many forms are necessary.

My opinion is very much in line with the "general" opinion here.  You won't master the forms, even if there are only 5 or 10.  You may get really, really good at them, but mastery is waaaaaay out there.  Once you find out about your forms, work with your instructor to tailor your forms practice.  He/she should have some good advice to help you along.

Above all else, *enjoy* your forms practice.  You will get much, much more out of it.

Peace--


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 11, 2003)

OK, Sorry.  You asked for an opinion and I gave it.  Don't diss all Kenpo people because of my opinion.  Don't try and banish me to an MMA forum because I gave an honest answer...You asked a very general question and I gave a very general response.

I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard.  I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms.  One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms.  Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata:   I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively.  So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion.


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 11, 2003)

> I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard. I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms. One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms. Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata: I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively. So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion.



I apreciate your opinion.  From the sounds of it different people, practicing different kata, show vastly different results.  Personally I think a big part is how you practice kata, which is why I brought up this discussion.  But your kata, practiced your way, didn't work for you.  OK, I respect that, but please understand that kata have worked for melenia for hundreds of thousands of people, that cannot be discounted due to your experiance.



> I would lean to the side that says that 80 forms is a bit excessive, but I could see that each one might have something to teach.



I hear you, loud and clear.  I have attempted to respectfully ask many of the questions you mentioned of my instructor.  From my understanding he seems to think that the more kata you have the more well rounded your art is.  He brings in kata that have movements that he likes, and thinks he can't get elsewhere.  He also brings in kata that he feels complement or fill in the gaps of areas in the system that he believes are missing.  So you've got 18 or so empty hand kata originally, then you've got a sister style and he likes 4 or 5 from that system, then there's his favorite kata from his first style, then there's a couple of kata from a group of Go-Ju guys he used to work out with.  And then youve got weapons where we start out with about 30 or so then hell start working more on one weapon and feel that he doesnt have a complete complement of techniques with the kata he already has so hell add 2 or 3.  You times that by about 10 different weapons and youve got your extra 20 or 30 kata.  Altogether we may be over 80.  I currently know 65.

Now please, let me emphasize.  I have nothing but the up most respect for my sensei.  He has invested years of his time into my training and asked for nothing.  He has spent over 30 years studying on Okinawa, and nearly 25 with Secichi Odo.  There are very few people in the world who understand and practice Kobudo at the level he does.  I seriously doubt there is anyone on the planet who understands more about Odos art then he does.  So please understand, I mean no disrespect to him.  I am simply frustrated at my own limitations and abilities in learning the number of kata he has as a requirement in his system.  I wish that I could take 30 (or less) kata and practice the hell out of them, but every time I come to class theres a different kata he expects me to know.  To meet those expectations I fear I will fail in my own to understand and truly know my kata.


----------



## Liam Digby (Jun 12, 2003)

To try and stay with the original question.

In the system I train (Wado Ryu) the founder, Hironori Ohtsuka, said that nine katas were sufficient, and that the additional kata were just repeating or reinforcing points made in the original nine. Bear in mind that Ohtsuka has own uses for kata application, very different from the normal methodology.

Just incase anyone's interested the katas of Wado Ryu are:
Fundamental nine, Pinans one through to five, Kushanku, Naihanchi, Sieshan, Chinto.

Additional forms:
Bassai, Jitte, Jion, Ni Sei Shi, Rohai, Wanshu. (have I missed one out?)

There were others that Ohtsuka toyed with, which some people claim are the "lost katas of Wado" and there are some organisations trying to reinvent these additional katas, all very interesting I'm sure, but from my angle the first nine are more than enough. I am against the idea of collecting forms like boyscout badges.


----------



## tonbo (Jun 12, 2003)

Sauzin:

Personally, I think that 80 katas is a bit excessive, as I have said.  I can see why your instructor has included all of them--you have explained that point pretty well.  Also, I do see that you have plenty of respect for your instructor, and don't wish to put him down in any way.

The problem is that training, no matter how rigid or formalized, is still an individual accomplishment at heart.  No one else can make you better but YOU.  In a great sense, your instructor has set a tone for your training:  he has incorporated all these different katas because of things that *he* sees as missing.  He is building his art from his own foundations.  Nothing wrong with that--he sees that there are areas that he wants to build up, and is taking pains to build those areas.

Now comes *your* training.  The art itself is rigid--your instructor makes the curriculum what it is.  The expression of the art is fluid and, above all else, *personal*.  That many katas may not work for you, and you may not get out of the katas the same thing that your instructor does.  

Currently, I have about 14 katas/forms that I am currently "working" with: 10 I have down pretty well, 1 I am mostly through with (different style) and getting past the "mechanical" stage, 1 I am in the stages of learning the first few moves, and 2 that I am more or less dabbling in (with an eye on seriously working on them when I get the others down more).  This is plenty for me to handle; once I get basics down, or the "theme" of the kata, it becomes easier.  However, I think I would go nuts quickly if I had to learn a new kata every other week.  Burnout would happen way too fast.

Again, I would recommend talking with your instructor.  Tell him about your frustration.  Let him know that you mean no disrespect and appreciate what he is doing with the art, but that you are getting overwhelmed and would like to concentrate on certain forms.  My guess is that he will be understanding.  You are not on his level, and shouldn't be held to his performance standards.  He should be willing and able to help you out.

I can appreciate your frustration--I've been there myself, when I had only a few katas to learn!!  The way I see it, if you can't have fun with your katas, and play with them while you work them (emphasizing differing speeds, alternating power strikes, etc.), then you are not truly getting the depth you need.  (Again...PERSONAL OPINION!!!).  Also, you should be aware of the "1000 vs. 10" philosophy:  "I don't fear the 1000 techniques you have practiced only once; I fear the 10 techniques you have practiced 1000 times" (yeah, paraphrased).  Do you really learn all that much from 80 katas brushed over, or do you learn more from 8 katas you have worked on for months/years?  Yep, you already know the answer, grasshopper..... 

One last thing.....since your instructor is bringing in katas from other styles:  has he thought about putting together his own forms that would incorporate the things he feels are missing from his style?  Doing so, I would think he could distill down the number of katas......but then again, that's just me......

Good luck!!

Peace--


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard.  I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms.  One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms.  Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata:   I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively.  So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion. *



You intentionally gave what you knew to be a volatile response that was really not even part of the question.

If all you did was dance around then yesyou wasted your time.
Your teacher should have showed you the applications of kata and how to practice them on a partner with realistic timing, however, certain applications you cant use for sparring if you are wearing glovesso I am guessing your teacher didnt know the applications or maybe just didnt want to show you..I would be willing to be he most likely didnt know  them.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 12, 2003)

Your guess is wrong.  My instructor knew and understood the techniques and he taught them.  Actually, I found your post a rather insulting personal attack.  But I will respond with a thoughtful logical argument because my original post was an honest opinion based on informed experience.

Practicing techniques from Kata is one of the things that Kenpo does exceptionally well.  Most Kenpo katas are self-defense techniques strung together.  Every technique in these Kenpo katas is practiced full speed, hard contact on an Uke.  We practice variations and what-ifs for each technique as well.  The techniques are often taught several belts before the kata is learned.  There is no style I have ever heard of that practices as many techniques with as much contact as Kenpo.  And, there is no style I have ever heard of that practices their Kata techniques with as much intent as Kenpo.  

How can you reasonably debate the merits of 10 vs 20 vs 50 vs 80 Katas when you don't know if Sauzin's instructor is providing the instruction you claim I missed?  You can only legitimately ask Sauzin the same question you've just asked me and then, based on your criteria, say that either all or none are valuable based on the instructor's teaching method.

My original post was a direct answer to the original question:  How many Katas are too many?  Since techniques can and should be practiced outside of the kata as done in Kenpo and in my training, why bother to learn the katas at all?  If the student can already do the techniques in the air, and on a partner, then what is the value of memorizing and practicing Kata solo?  I'll tell you again.  The benefit is the same as the benefit of Tai Chi.  And, Martial Arts students can spend their time training to fight or training to do Tai Chi.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Your guess is wrong.  My instructor knew and understood the techniques and he taught them.  Actually, I found your post a rather insulting personal attack.  But I will respond with a thoughtful logical argument because my original post was an honest opinion based on informed experience. *



If I was wrong then we wouldnt be having this discussion.




> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Practicing techniques from Kata is one of the things that Kenpo does exceptionally well. *



I see so now you say Kempo practices techniques from kata well..before you said it was a waste of time.



> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *If the student can already do the techniques in the air, and on a partner, then what is the value of memorizing and practicing Kata solo?  I'll tell you again.  The benefit is the same as the benefit of Tai Chi *




I see.and just what do you think the benefits, or should I say the lack of, of doing Tai Chi are?


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 12, 2003)

Ryushikan:  I don't want to fight on this forum.  I do want to debate the merits of Kata with regard to the original question as to how many is the right amount.

Kata should not be the method for teaching technique.  In many martial arts, Kata techniques are a supplement to the basic curriculum and training practice of the art.  The technique only exists in terms of the Kata and does not exist separately on its own merits.  Technique instruction needs to focus on application exactly as you argued in your earlier post.  

Part of our argument is a chicken and egg question.  Which came first:  the kata or the technique?  

Often, the Kata is taught and then the student learns the application.   I think this is backwards.  The student should learn the technique first.  Then if the student wants to learn the mental discipline and moving meditation of Kata then so be it.  

If the student already knows the technique and its applications, and the student wants to learn self-defense or fighting, then the practice of Kata is a waste of time.

So, Kata for me is a waste of time:  I already know the techniques and how to execute them and I should have spent more time increasing my power and improving my sparring.


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 12, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> * I do want to debate the merits of Kata with regard to the original question as to how many is the right amount. *



Really? Considering you started this line of dialogue I got the impression this is where you wanted to take it..


----------



## chufeng (Jun 12, 2003)

> And, Martial Arts students can spend their time training to fight or training to do Tai Chi.



Interesting...how is it that you infer "doing" TaiJi is a waste of time?

Perhaps your instructor knew the applications...and showed them to you...and had you practice them...WHY then did you have difficulty applying them in "sparring?" Because people don't spar like they do one-step? OK...Why don't people spar like they do one-step?  Because they are afraid of getting hit.

There are three kinds of attacks...the pattycake, tentative, "let's see what he does if I throw this" stuff...the drive straight through and "damn the topedoes" type attack...and the set-up...

The application from kata will work against all three types...if you understand it.

...and there is the rest of what martial ways are about...it goes beyond fighting...if all you want to do is mix it up....then go for it.

But Martial Ways have so much more to offer than fighting skills.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## yilisifu (Jun 13, 2003)

Absolutely!  And Taiji IS designed for actual fighting, although too many people nowadays just practice it for health and don't learn the real art.  Yilichuan practicioners are able to actually use their Taiji in unrehearsed one-step AND fighting.

It's just a matter of training the right way.


----------



## tonbo (Jun 13, 2003)

If doing kata is a waste of time, since you are only doing your moves in the air, is practicing the moves in the air also a waste of time?  Should you not bother working on techniques unless you have a body present that you can apply techniques to?

I would say that kata does indeed have merit.  No, you won't get the full benefit of feeling how a strike lands, or judging your power.  However, you *can* work on balance, focus, stances, proper form, and flow (to name a few things).  Katas are also good for working breathing and other health-related aspects (which I assume is the reference to Tai Chi).

There are a variety of ways to practice your katas, and each can teach you *something*, if done right.  I would further agree with what's been said about individual practice......if you are just making motions in the air, you aren't going to learn or train *anything* with your katas, and you are better off not doing them.

And Tai Chi?  Well, I think that Tai Chi suffers a horrible misconception:  that it is a glorified form of moving Yoga.  It isn't.  Yes, it is generally performed slowly and in a meditative fashion; however, if you have ever seen it applied full speed and with internal energy, it can be just as devastating as any other martial art.  Remember:  Tai Chi was slowed down intentionally; it was not created as a slow art.

Just a few general thoughts.....as always, your mileage may vary.

Peace--


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 13, 2003)

Alright I would just like to address a few things here.

I totally understand where the kenpo guy is coming from in regards to American kenpo and like styles.  Styles relating to the three primary forms of Okinawan karate (Shuri-te, Tomori-te, and Naha-te) have a different perspective on kata then most Ed Parker kenpo groups.  Okinawan kata arent just a combination of techniques with specific applications; they are a study of body movement and transitioning.  Interpretations of the movements found in kata and their transitions can be used to form an endless number of specific techniques.  A punch in a kata is not just a punch.  Its a block, a throw, a grab, a pull, and in some cases that involve a step it is also a kick.  With this many interpretations of a punch you can just imagine what they are doing with other movements, and I say movements because you really cant single out just techniques in a kata as it negates the transition in-between which is where the real treasure in kata lies.  Our techniques come *from* kata but they are not *in* kata.  So you see when you come to a karate forum and talk kata, youre really talking an entirely different language then what you practiced.  

In regards to the question of if I have been taught applications.  Yes from a very early rank, from a very practical perspective.  That is one of many things I really admirer about my Sensei.  His real world understanding of how combat mechanics work, which he is always more then happy to demonstrate.  While he understand the distraction what ifs can cause in a classroom he is always happy to entertain the willing and is never threatened by a challenge to prove that something works.

The amount of time we spend in class on application is about a 50/50 spit with kata.  This is great for my art, but at the same time means that I really have to invest the time outside of class if I want to run through all of my kata and keep them up to date.  Also with so many kata my teacher struggles to get as many corrections in with the time he has as possible, and then gets very frustrated when some of them are forgotten due to the number of different kata and different corrects he goes over in one class.  Its a bit hard to keep straight when were talking 10 or 15 different kata each class.  By the time youre being corrected on your 4th or 5th kata things start to get jumbled. 

Last night at class my instructor made some remarks that inferred that it looked like I had just been taught a couple of kata I was running through.  Problem is I learned them 3 years ago.

-Sauzin


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 13, 2003)

Kenpo is pretty much one kata and one or two sets (more of a collection of strikes than an actual form) per belt, and this is enough for me.  The sets and forms get more difficult as your skill increases, of course.


----------



## chufeng (Jun 13, 2003)

> but at the same time means that I really have to invest the time outside of class if I want to run through all of my kata and keep them up to date.



In YiLi, it is an EXPECTATION to work on things outside of scheduled class time. When you go to college, you don't just spend the time in class learning; you are expected to do at least 2 to 4 hours for every hour of class time...the same is true of martial arts...if you simply go to class and train there, but invest none of your own time outside of class, you'll never get where you want to be.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 13, 2003)

Kata is the vehicle which you use to understand technique........then apply it.

Anyone that is taught kata is just dancing or kicking and punching in the air should change their instructor.


----------



## yilisifu (Jun 13, 2003)

Amen.


----------



## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *One Kata is too many if your training time is limited.  What do you get by studying Kata?  I'll tell you.  You get good at Tai Chi.  I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata.  I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring.  So should you. *



Can you say *TROLL*?


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 14, 2003)

Yes.............and I can say uninformed too.


----------



## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *OK, Sorry.  You asked for an opinion and I gave it.  Don't diss all Kenpo people because of my opinion.  Don't try and banish me to an MMA forum because I gave an honest answer...You asked a very general question and I gave a very general response.
> 
> I spent 20 years practicing Kata really hard.  I did about 25 different forms including 4 weapons forms.  One day I woke up and realized I had spent all my time doing forms.*


   Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata:   I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively.  So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion. [/B][/QUOTE] 

Kata, is how we train our techniques without a partner. They are where we learn some of the finer points of our chosen system. They won't teach you how to fight, but from them you can learn things that you won't get by just doing your techs on someone else.
Obviously to make kata work for you, you need to add drills to your training, preferably ones that are based upon your katas. From these you will learn correct distancing and timing. 
Kata are the encyclopedia of our respective arts. 



> *Compared with my contemporaries who did not spend as much time on Kata:   I couldn't spar as well , I couldn't hit with as much power, and I couldn't execute the techniques against a real opponent as effectively.  So, love your katas, but you asked the question and I gave my opinion. *



All I can deduce from this comment is that you may have worked hard on your katas for 25 years, but you really didn't learn anything. I have to admit I haven't been in the arts as long as you, but I have to say, if you do your katas correctly, and with intent and purpose, then you will hit harder, and your techs will come alive. If your kata is dead then it is time to put on a white belt in a kata oriented style and start again.

I can't remember who it was, but someone once said, "Movement without purpose is nothing more tham wasted motion."
As a KENPO man I would have thought you were against wasted motion 

Hey, this is just my $0.02 worth.

:asian:


----------



## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Yes.............and I can say uninformed too. *


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *   Kata, is how we train our techniques without a partner. They are where we learn some of the finer points of our chosen system. They won't teach you how to fight, but from them you can learn things that you won't get by just doing your techs on someone else.
> Obviously to make kata work for you, you need to add drills to your training, preferably ones that are based upon your katas. From these you will learn correct distancing and timing.
> Kata are the encyclopedia of our respective arts. *



Dave, 

Couldnt have said it better!
Some nay sayers of kata just dont get the whole picture.





> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *   All I can deduce from this comment is that you may have worked hard on your katas for 25 years, but you really didn't learn anything. I have to admit I haven't been in the arts as long as you, but I have to say, if you do your katas correctly, and with intent and purpose, then you will hit harder, and your techs will come alive. If your kata is dead then it is time to put on a white belt in a kata oriented style and start again.
> 
> I can't remember who it was, but someone once said, "Movement without purpose is nothing more tham wasted motion."
> ...




Again..Bravo!
My teacher has a saying.
There are 2 kinds of sweat. Stupid sweat where you sweat hard but dont concentrate on what you are doing and Golden sweat; where you think about and understand what you are doing so your sweat is worthy of you effortslike gold


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 14, 2003)

> In YiLi, it is an EXPECTATION to work on things outside of scheduled class time. When you go to college, you don't just spend the time in class learning; you are expected to do at least 2 to 4 hours for every hour of class time...the same is true of martial arts...if you simply go to class and train there, but invest none of your own time outside of class, you'll never get where you want to be.


Of course, I agree completely

I did not mean to say that I am frustrated due to having to spend time outside of class.  I meant to say that I am frustrated due to having to spend all my time outside of class only running through the kata once and not working specific kata repetitively.  Just running through all of my kata once takes me about 4 hours.  This doesn't leave me with much time to work specific kata, unless I sacrifice running through others.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## chufeng (Jun 14, 2003)

Certainly you remember your basic kata pretty well by now...you can cut back on those and do them once or twice a week, instead.

With the time you save, invest it in picking apart a single kata...work that one kata for at least a month...look for things you think you see and write them down...then practice them with a partner...ask your sensei for clarification once you do the hard work.

Again, you'll never master even one kata using your current strategy...

After you've examined six or seven, pick the one you like the best and then get rerally nit picky on detail...hidden goodies often show up in the transitions so don't neglect looking there as well.

:asian:
chufeng


----------



## D.Cobb (Jun 14, 2003)

> _Originally posted by RyuShiKan _
> *Dave,
> 
> Couldnt have said it better!
> ...






Thank you for the kudos. 
I believe that compliments from you are not to be taken lightly.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## RyuShiKan (Jun 15, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *
> I believe that compliments from you are not to be taken lightly.
> *



I always give credit where credit is due.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 16, 2003)

OK.  So you can call me a troll if you want.  You can claim I don't understand my Katas.  You can even call my instructors incompetent because of my attitude on Katas even though they've won numerous Kata and Kumite competitions.  I can handle your criticism.  I am not going to defend my competence in Kata.  I am not going to post pictures of myself doing katas or of the tournament trophies.  I am not going to post pictures of my my students doing katas and winning in tournaments.  

You should all just keep on practicing all of your katas whether you are doing 8 or 80 of them.  More power to you.  Next time you get into a fight, just remember your katas.   After the fight, tell the paramedic that you should have spent more time practicing kata.  

As for me, I am not going to spend any more time on Kata.  I am going to take all that I've learned and all that I am still learning and apply it against fully resisting opponents sparring and fighting and making sure that everything that I do really does work.


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 16, 2003)

> Certainly you remember your basic kata pretty well by now...you can cut back on those and do them once or twice a week, instead.
> 
> With the time you save, invest it in picking apart a single kata...work that one kata for at least a month...look for things you think you see and write them down...then practice them with a partner...ask your sensei for clarification once you do the hard work.
> 
> ...



Thank-you.

That is good advice and I will make sure to put it to practice.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 17, 2003)

I would like to resuscitate a thread I began some time ago. I think it useful to actually count the reps of kata you do, and more important, count the reps of kata you teach. I have been in many traditional dojos, and the numbers collectively done in the dojo rarely add up to much. 

Here is one very general practice. During kata practice, a students "runs through" all he knows. If he knows 15, he will run through each one once. 

So add up the reps of what you practice and extrapolate over one year, four years, and a decade. For some systems with lots of kata, especially those with kobudo thrown in on top, the total numbers may surprise you. I have done this with a couple of mainline Okinawan systems and the total reps over time are remarkably meager.

Now go back 100 years. Funakoshi talks of beginners taking three years to learn Naihanchi. And remember to be a student under the masters he trained under, you trained everyday for 2 or more hours. And the curriculum was kata-intensive. Yabu Kentsu (one of Itosu's senior students) said you needed to practice a kata 10,000 times to make it one's own. It would be very surprising to me if the average student didn't pass that mark before a year.

So the Okinawans prized repetition. And I don't think this be a surprise to anyone. How many times over 20 years would a professional boxer practice a left jab, right cross combination? In the air, on the heavy bag and speed bag, and in sparring and boxing? My guess is scores of thousands of times. I have read that serious professional golfers can easily hit a thousand balls in one day of training. There was an article in the Wall Street Journal a couple of weeks back on an NBA basketball player trying to move up from the bench. He shoots a thousand jumpshots a day. How many strokes do you take if you are an oarsman? How many swings of a bat if a baseball player? Swings of a tennis racket if you are a tennis player? Over 10 or so years, serious athletes do these movements not tens of thousands of times but hundreds of thousands of times, and lots more. 

And in many dojos, a technique might be practiced in a kata 50 to 200 times per year, because kata is "run through" once or twice a week, maybe with two reps per kata. And with these miniscule repetitions, do we really expect we will be able to apply these movements in self defense? Imagine our lives are on the line, in a moment of intense stress. Can we really expect these measley reps to provide us with reflexive, fast and powerful responses to large attackers?

Count the reps of kata you do and teach, and then ask yourself why are you practicing and teaching movements that can never be practiced enough for good self-defense. Then ask yourself why you couldn't be like the Okinawan masters in the 1800s. Funakoshi said it was common for a master to know one kata, or just a few. 

IMHO, most systems do too many kata. If self defense is ultimately the purpose for the kata the practice, they would be better served by practicing just a few.

I recently had the great fortune to train with a 65 year old Okinawan master who has devoted his life to the fighting arts since he was 10. He told our group that he wanted to throw out half of his 15 kata.

I am a student of Shito Ryu, a system that descends from Kenwa Mabuni, a collector of Okinawan forms. With his additions, there are approximately 50 kata in his system. 

I practice and teach five. I have found that I can get so much more out of them then I ever could when I tried practicing 50.


----------



## cas (Jun 18, 2003)

The founder of wado-ryu Ohtsuka sensei put nine kata in wado originally. The five pinan kata's, kushanku, naifanchi, seishan and chinto. He said this should be enough to practice on during a lifetime. Students in Europe and the US started learning other kata's from other styles so they had more kata's to show in kata competition. To prevent having many different versions of the same kata's in our style senior Japanese teachers started teaching the other kata's that are in Wado now. 

Perhaps a kata should be seen as a individual teaching tool. If a style has many kata a teacher could pick a kata that's best for a certain student. In this way a style could have quite a lot of kata's but a practioner will only know a few (really well). This is somewhat contrary to the idea of one grade one kata up to 5th dan. 

What do you think?

thanks,

Casper baar


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 18, 2003)

In Bishop's book, he says Higaonna did just that. Sanchin for many months, then have a kata hand-picked by the master.


----------



## angrywhitepajamas (Jun 18, 2003)

Do you guys do it hard and fast, soft and slow? What mind set do you approach the kata with?  Are you fighting, exploring the different nuances of the technique ,or are you performing a specific set of movements?  Is your traning as my teachers have put it "kata kumite same" or is your kata a separate from your application as some schools near me do(too many to name)?What is your prefered emotion to perform/practice/explore/fight?
Do you practice a single set as a standing meditation?


This may set off sparks, but I am curious to learn how different people approach kata.  Because as the aikido proverb states "what is going on in your head shows in your body" and one of my instructors states every time "Your kata reflects how you will train for the rest of the night and the rest of the year".


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 18, 2003)

There are lots of ideas on kata practice.

I think to make kata practical you need to do several things. First you need to do reps of the kata. Second, you should, where possible, practice pieces of combinations, or complete combinations against a bag. Third, you need lots of partner work.

Regarding the kata repetitions, there should be some done the "traditional" way. Lots of kime (keymay), or focus. But I don't think it necessary to spend too much time on hard, tough movements. I think it more helpful to practice a range of speeds and tension. Here is my strong advice. If someone says you should only practice kata one way, ignore him. On your own time when you practice kata, what you do is up to you, and the way most Japanese and some Okinawan kata is practiced, the pace is often too slow to really begin to make it practical. You need to practice techniques as you would use them in fighting, and that is fast, without all the pauses.  

So you should practice a range. First, to warm up, it is good to practice the movements completely relaxed and slow. Kind of like tai-chi only somewhat faster. Then do lots of reps fast and relaxed. In Muay Thai training, as well as western boxing, there are lots of fast relaxed strikes thrown. Really try to crank up the speed on at least some of them. But for most, just pretty good speed. 

Let's say you chose to do 30 reps of a kata. You could take them in stages. 2 medium speed relaxed, 5 almost full speed, relaxed, 3 full speed relaxed. 3 full power with kime, 2 slow like tai chi, then repeat. Any mix is good. Find something that works for you.

You could do a couple of reps with weights in your hands, but don't do them to quickly, or too hard, as hard techniques with weights can damage some of the tissue in your joints, especially your shoulder, and even more especially if you are older. You could choose to do parts of kata with dynamic tension, like some portions of Goju kata. If your application of a movement is a lock, or a throw that takes a good bit of arm strength, then these are good candidates. 

Don't neglect bag work, it is essential. Use full combinations, where possible, or portions of them, against a bag to help develop good power. You quickly find out where your weaknesses are, so you can better understand how to apply good body mechanics to maximize power. (How to put more of your body into your techniques.)

But none of this will likely result in effective techniques unless you practice combinations with partners. And for these, you really need to do lots of repetitions. I like to break the movements down. And sometimes do a small piece of the combination many times. Maybe it is a difficult transition such as switching a grab from one hand to the other, or a difficult trap. Focus on high reps of the difficult parts of the application. Sometimes it is best to focus on the end part, and once that begins to feel natural, work your way backwards incrementally until you get the beginning. Lot's of techniques can fail because you are good at the beginning, but have not practiced the end nearly as often. Reversing the repetitions to the end movements helps to overcome this. Once you get through the beginning, the rest flows more naturally.

One important thing. If you are to really want to crank up the reps, it helps to figure out how to breathe properly. You need to find something that works for you. I can share my thoughts if somebody wants, but this post is getting long enough. 

Finally, you have to find some techniques that actually work. The karate world is filled with people who practice and teach kata and have no conception of how to make the movements useful. Rather, the unfortunate truth is that most bunkai practiced is just plain bad fighting. There are some basics I go by that have provided me with good applictations, but that too is another post, if there is any interest.

Just some ideas.


----------



## Kempojujutsu (Jun 18, 2003)

Is it me or should one be a master of 1 to 3 kata's instead of trying to know 10 or more kata's. Just a thought. 
Bob :asian:


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 19, 2003)

Bob,

First, I have a caveat. I know something about a number of Okinawan kata (and their Japanese derivatives). I do have some familiarity with many other fighting systems. Unfortunately for those with forms and kata, I have chosen not to try to better understand these movements. As I said above, I have abandoned dozens of kata in my own system. (Although I do have some understanding of the movements for many of them.) 

I have seen Kempo kata, but I confess ignorance regarding the inner workings of them. So although I have been using the term kata, I have been using it in a specific context, kata that have evolved from those practiced in Okinawa 90 years ago when Itosu, Kyan and Higaonna were teaching. Mea culpa if this doesn't fully apply to Kempo. 

The reason that I make this qualification, is that I have firsthand knowledge of the effectiveness of Okinawan kata, and why just a few can serve as a complete foundation for a fighting system. 

The issue comes down to the breadth of application contained in the movements of Okinawan kata. I just don't know whether there are comparable kinds of applications within other systems with which I am not completely familiar. 

To me, perhaps the most fascinating aspect of Okinawan karate is that some movements are really like swiss army knives. They can be used against many different kinds of attacks. Sure, there are small differences between the actual movements in these applications, but the general pattern can be repeated.

In the applications I do, I stick closely to the kata, and not only are there blocks, counterkicks and strikes, and all sorts of locks, but there are takedowns for every application I practice. Against a big attacker, my goal is to put the big guy on the ground so his relative advantage in mass is greatly diminished. And I can just follow through the steps of kata, and do that hundreds of times, with the handful of kata I teach and practice.

In the applications I do, the "turns" (and pivots) are an integral part of the technique. Everything you do benefits from good body mechanics, bringing your body into the technique. You can do that by moving forward, or by turning, and many forward movements have pivots as well. So you turn to block and counter, then continue with your combination by perhaps turning to lock, (and perhaps counter again) and continue again by perhaps turning to throw. I say perhaps, because sometimes the forward movements are used for locks and takedowns. In Okinawan kata, there are turns and forward movements, and both come together. 

So lets say a kata has starts with turn A and proceeds, each turn and it's associated forward movemens being a letter. AB or ABC would be a technique, (and perhaps, though rarely, ABCD) BC and perhaps BCD are also techniques. So is CD or CDE, and DE, EF and so on. In some cases, movements modeled on the body mechanics of one "combination" can be used against a variety of attacks, and in rare cases, perhaps 5, 10, 15 different kinds of attacks. (For example AB, or ABC at the beginning of Pinan Shodan and Pinan Yondan.) 

Please note that this is a very unorthodox approach to kata interpretation found in Okinawan and especially Japanese karate today. Many, many systems use turns primarily to face an opponent coming from a different direction, and then complete the technique with a single counterstrike/kick found in that one "direction." However it is what, in my mind, makes kata practice so useful. It is not a bunch of techniques strung together, but a bunch of overlapping techniques strung together, and why the practice of the kata is different from the practice of individual techniques or components of the kata. 

Again, I am referring to Okinawan kata, but this is why just a few kata are so hard to master. Because if you really want to use the kata to its fullest, you have so much work ahead. Let's say a particular combination can be used in 10 different ways (not the norm). Then I do believe why most MAists could see why it might be a good idea to adopt those movements fully into one's defensive repertoire. And for that you need thousands of repetitions of kata, lots of bag work and tons of partner work. 

Now let's say you decide to go forward with that plan. How long would it take to achieve in the typical karate dojo? I would venture to say, from experience, several years, just for one kata. And if you wanted to, for a variety of reasons, introduce kata say once per year, it would take far longer. 

Even more important, if your school were not set up for this kind of repetition, but you needed to do this on your own, outside your dojo, it would take many years. 

That's why I advocate finding a few kata that work for you, and focusing on just them. But again, when it comes to Kempo please recognized that I don't understand the kata. Maybe more kata are needed to get to the right number of combinations good for self defense. Some Kempo kata I have seen are relatively short compared to many of the Okinawa forms. (There are relatively short Okinawan forms, Pinans and Naihanchi being examples, but most kata have 15 or more directions.)

But then that is a whole other story. How many combinations do you really want to practice for true self defense?


----------



## Nightingale (Jun 19, 2003)

Kenpo Katas contain the left sides of many techniques...

when I was testing for my brown belt, my instructor told me to do the technique "grip of death" and the guy who was being the dummy attacked me the wrong way...I just did the technique on the left side.  If I hadn't known my katas, I wouldn't have had that in my arsenal.  I pulled the tech off with no problem, and about ten minutes later, my instructor finally figures it out, looks at me and says "did you just do grip of death on the left side?"  me: "yes, sir"  him: "where the heck did you pick that up?"  me: "short form 3, sir"  him:  "oh, yeah! I'd forgotten about that.  Jose, get over here and do the right attack!"

There's nothing wrong with training in a system that is designed without katas.  In many of those systems, the things katas teach are taught in other ways.  However, when you take katas out of a system that already has them, without putting something else in, you lose a lot.  Katas in kenpo not only teach you the left sides of many techniques, they teach you a lot about movement and focus.  Also, if you practice the steps of your kata off the attack, you gain a lot of insight as to what exactly is supposed to be happening in your kata.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 19, 2003)

I have a question on Kenpo katas. Let's say you learn a new kata after 2 years of study. I would like to understand how quickly the applications of the kata would be provided by the teacher. 

In many karate systems, the kata come quick, but the applications, slow, or not at all. And many would argue that most of the applications given provide the student a terrific way of getting seriously hurt. They are lousy fighting plain and simple. (Anyone want another thread on this topic?)

Can you tell me if Kenpo is different? Is it a general practice to teach applications for the movements in kata? And if so, in general, how quickly are they taught and for what percentage of the kata?

First, as I am really interested in kata application, I would like to know. Second, if applications are learned, it really reinforces your statement that if you throw a kata out, then you are throwing out useful technique that needs to be replaced.

I argue that in most karate systems, the unfortunate truth is that good applications are rarely taught for kata movements, and therefore, if you throw out a kata, you really don't have to replace it, because it wasn't providing anything that needed replacing.

On top of that, the common practice of doing these kata 50-100 times a year makes any hope of practical use very unlikely.


----------



## Old Fat Kenpoka (Jun 19, 2003)

Shuri-te:  You might look for some of my posts earlier in this thread...even though you might not like all of them...

Anyway, Kenpo is very different from J/O Karate in that the techniques in Kata exist separately as techniques.  That is to say that the techniques are taught separately from and usually prior to learning the kata.  Each technique has a unique name like Glancing Salute or Delayed Sword.  The techniques are practiced with an Uke first slow, and then fast with plenty of contact.  They are practiced on both sides and a lot of "what-if" is done enabling the kenpoist to modify the technique as the situation changes.  

This is one of the key points of my earlier argument -- considered inflammatory by most on this thread -- that Kata practice is not necessary for the improvement of technique.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 19, 2003)

OFK,

Thank you for the clarification on the practice of kata. I had a feeling that was the way it was taught. The techniques are taught as applications quickly, and this is virtually the opposite of the way the techniques are taught in karate.

One of the things I borrow from Kenpo (and other fighting systems) that I apply in my kata interpretation is the notion of multiple counterstrikes. In many Japanese/Okinawan systems, there is a heavy emphasis on single counterstrike applications from kata. To me, the notion that I could ever drop a large attacker with a single counter is comical. But in the kenpo I have been exposed to, you hit the guy several times, and use all sorts of locks. Great stuff.

I hope you don't judge all kata by the Kenpo kata you do. Okinawan kata are not just techniques strung together, but overlapping techniques strung together, and the practice of kata can really help as part of the overall development.

I didn't consider anything you said inflammatory. Some of the replies, I might not view the same.  

I am a staunch advocate of kata, but I also believe that the way it is taught and has been taught is woefully deficient. But that is another thread if someone is interested.


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 20, 2003)

Hello Shuri-te,

I have to say that your first response is a mountain of wisdom.  I agree completely with what you are saying there.  What is particularly interesting to me is the style you practice.  Shito-ryu.  You see my sensei often gives Shito-ryu as an example of a system that has more kata then he practices. He often quotes a number over 100.  Now Im sure that different teachers practice different numbers but it is particularly interesting to me that you tried practicing 50 and ran into the same problems I did, and now you practice 5.  That, to me, is an inspiration.

Now I run into the problem were if I were to just practice 5 I would probably loose my rank.  That or frustrate my sensei to the point of certain brain hemorrhage.  But I think I can take a point from what others have suggested and focus on 3 or 5 primarily, practicing the rest only enough to not forget the pattern.  

Here is a question I would like to pose, and get your view on.  When discussing the advantages and disadvantages of many kata my sensei often quotes what he refers to as an old Okinawan parable, which goes something like this.  A sensei had 3 students.  One was an expert kicker, one was an expert with hand techniques, and another was a generalist who did both but wasnt as good at either.  One day a street thug entered the town and began causing trouble.  The sensei first sent his kicker to dispatch the thug, but he met with defeat.  The sensei then sent his hand specialist who also was brought down by the street thug.  Exasperated he sent the only student he had left but had little hope.  The generalist quickly defeated the street thug, much to the senseis surprise.  The sensei did not understand how his generalist who was not as good at kicking as his kicker, nor as good at hand techniques as his hand specialist could win with these inferior skills.  The student explained that because he understood both hand techniques and kicks, there was nothing the thug could do to surprise him.  Thus he defeated the thug.

My sensei uses this parable to explain that even if you arent the best of the best at a technique, by broadening your exposure and familiarity to techniques you ultimately become the better martial artist.  He also argues that since he is training me to be a teacher it is important that I know as many kata as possible so that I can teach anyone.  How would you respond to these statements?

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 20, 2003)

Sauzin,

Thank your for your kind reply. 

Your teacher's story of a balanced approach to the arts is a good one. But I would argue that a few kata can give you the balanced set of techniques you need, you just have to pick what works for you. For example, out of five Pinans, I decided to practice only two, Shodan and Yondan. First I am in awe of the depth and effectiveness of technique that some of the movements have, as these give me a remarkably diverse set of capabilities. But also, I think combinations with kicks are a critical skill, and these are the most kick-intensive of the Pinans, and of many Okinawan kata in general. 

You are right that it is difficult to find the right balance in the tradeoff between kata as "art" and practiced for rank promotion, and kata practiced for self-defense. The good news is that if you choose to practice a few kata many times, then many of your less-practiced kata will get better and better, because so many kata movements have so much in common. 

I have a breathing technique I use in the practice of kata that helps me leverage the practice of a few movements. But this is a bit off the subject, so I will start a new thread.

Regarding the challenge of remembering kata you choose to practice infrequently, I suggest you get a commercial tape, or see if you can videotape your Sensei, if you have the equipment. Your kata may be pretty similar to Bruce Heilman's and his are commercially available and pretty reasonably priced. Having a kata on video allows you to not worry too much about a kata for a period, and then dive back into it as needed. 

I like to watch videos when stretching, and I can't tell you how valuable these are for me. I confess that I grow more forgetful as I get older and I now rely on videos to help me remember, not just kata, but some of my techniques as well. 

Please note that my problem is not limited to my Shito Ryu kata. (I like to say that the character "shi" has an alternate meaning of "too many" and the character "to" has an alternate meaning of "kata", so my "system" is the way of too many kata.) I also occasionally train in Matsubayashi, Kobayashi and Shotokan dojos, so I strive to remember those versions of kata as well. And of course there are kobudo kata.

What's become a joke in my dojo is that I will dream up some kata application driving to or from work, and then in the evening, will try it out in the dojo to see what works and what needs refinement. (Or whether the whole idea needs to be chucked.) Some months later a student will use it in partner work, and I will ask "Did you come up with that?" In some cases, they have developed something themselves. (Which of course gives me greatest pleasure.) But often the answer is "No Sensei, you taught us that", to which I respond, "Are you sure?" or "When was that?"

We have been discussing the need for repetition, but that goes hand-in-hand with the need for good applications. Do you have applications for your kata that you find really useful? If not, please let me know. I have visited Heilman's dojo and am familiar with the way he teaches kata. I might be able to help with some ideas from Pinan Shodan, and Yondan, Naihanchi Shodan and Kusanku. I have some ideas on video that you might find useful.


----------



## D.Cobb (Jun 21, 2003)

Shuri-Te..

I have noticed through out this thread, your comments in regard to Okinawan Kata, and was wondering, do you look for the pressure point/ kyusho & tuite applications, or just the obvious ones?

I'm not having a dig here, I genuinely want to know.




> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka_*
> Anyway, Kenpo is very different from J/O Karate in that the techniques in Kata exist separately as techniques. That is to say that the techniques are taught separately from and usually prior to learning the kata. Each technique has a unique name like Glancing Salute or Delayed Sword. The techniques are practiced with an Uke first slow, and then fast with plenty of contact. They are practiced on both sides and a lot of "what-if" is done enabling the kenpoist to modify the technique as the situation changes. *



I must admit that I had forgotten these facts in regard to American Kenpo. So I would like to apologise to OFK for some of my remarks. However having said that, let me say this, my remark re joining a kata oriented school still stands. Also, I believe that the first 4 katas/ forms in your system, short & long 1 & 2, are the ones that will teach the important elements of punching and posture etc.

Which leads to the next question;
What good does it do to learn about "what ifs", if your posture is wrong and you don't know how to strike properly?

I honestly believe, sir, that you should really tear your katas and forms apart. Find every hidden nuance, principle and concept. Ed Parker would not have created these combinations of movement, if they served no purpose. I have discovered so much about my EPAK forms since I started training in Ryukyu Kempo, that I didn't know was there.

All I can really emphasise to you is, don't discount them, without trying a different viewpoint.

--Dave

:asian:


----------



## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

I have been told that you can learn as many kata as you like but keep one special kata that you train intensly on. The other kata may help you to understand things in your special kata.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 21, 2003)

Rick Tsubota said,


> I have been told that you can learn as many kata as you like but keep one special kata that you train intensly on. The other kata may help you to understand things in your special kata.



I have read many posts on MT and for me, these words above are by far the most profound. 

I would add one small addition. In time, with dedication, one might truly master that special kata. It may take a decade, maybe far longer. After that, one might consider whether it made sense to expand that special repertoire to a second kata. 

In fact, most of us, even life long students, will never get to that point for even a single kata, (unless, we pick a very short kata). So for us lesser mortals, the one kata emphasis might well be a lifelong one.


----------



## Rick Tsubota (Jun 21, 2003)

Musashi said: "To know one thing well is to know ten thousand"
Maybe this can apply to kata too.
I know techniques in my favorite kata that can also be seen in other kata. The more you know one kata the more you will understand other kata. The body can only move in certain directions and do certain things so it is limited to what it can produce and endure with technique.


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 21, 2003)

D.Cobb said:


> Shuri-Te..
> 
> I have noticed through out this thread, your comments in regard to Okinawan Kata, and was wondering, do you look for the pressure point/ kyusho & tuite applications, or just the obvious ones?



Dave,

The kata I teach are very similar to those practiced in Shotokan. There are some differences in stances and hand techniques, but I have found, somewhat surprisingly, that a lot of these differences are in kata only. The different approaches can work equally well using the bunkai I practice.

I bring this up because to Shotokan practitioners, whom I train with often, my bunkai looks like Jujutsu with kicks and strikes. All the combinations I practice have takedowns, as I am always inclined to want the big guy on the ground where his advantage in mass is minimized. And I use an abundance of locks to set up counterstrikes to vital targets, as well as set up takedowns. I am a big propenent of teaching chokes and locks to finish. I think that if I were ever attacked, I really wouldn't want to finish with a "killing" strike to someone on the ground. Rather, I would like to lock him up so the big guy can chill out a bit, recognize that further fighting with me might have an unexpected risk, and we can "calmly" discuss what a good idea it would be to go our separate ways after we get up.

I teach an unorthodox approach to kata interpretation. I only use sequential movements of kata. I don't add movements, or use movements from one part of the kata with a different part of the kata. These are excellent approaches, but my way is different. 

Let me give you an example. In RyuKyu Kempo, you have Pinan Shodan and Kusanku in your system. In the fourth direction of Pinan Shodan is a combination pretty identical to one in Kusanku. Three shutos followed by a nukite. I use this full "directional sequence" against a variety of striking and grabbing attacks.  Against a left strike, I have several variations on my initial setup, and as indicated above, all end with takedowns, and most all use the full 4 sequential movements. Some use the next turn as well. 

Against a left strike (lead arm) one combination begins with a left block. The feet begin equidistant from the attacker, and you pivot 90 degrees towards the left, and sink off to the right, getting off the line of attack. The second shuto is done stepping forward for an arm bar, using your left hand to trap the arm. The third shuto is done stepping forward, with your left hand grabbing and circling the opponent's trapped left arm over your right forearm, and continuing that counterclockwise circular motion with a shuto strike to the back of the neck that is now conveniently in your range of maximum power (right in front of your own abdomen). The nukite is used for the takedown, which is one that is common to jujutsu, aikido and several Chinese arts. 

Some systems, like Shotokan, and the Okinawa Kenpo kata I have done in Bruce Heilman's dojo, fold the left arm up under the right for the nukite. This folding part is a significant component of the takedown. (Although I have done RyuKyu Kempo kata, I have forgotten whether this left hand under right triceps pattern is maintained.) 

Many Okinawan systems have kata where Shutos are done in cat stances. Compared with the Okinawa Kenpo Seisan stance, I believe that cat stance might be more advantageous with the initial block, as you can better shift your mass to your right in cat stance, getting further off the line of attack. Think of the first stance as the opening of Pinan Yondan (attacker directly in front), with the right hand chambered over the abdomen, instead of up high. After that, using the Seisan stances for the follow-up techniques work at least as good, if not better than the cat stances found in other kata.

Let me provide one more general example. For the openings of Pinan Shodan and Yondan, I use several directions against all sorts of attacks. All with takedowns, just by doing the movements in kata.

For striking, in general, my kicks are to the groin, and my strikes to the neck or temple. I like to strike the nose, as it is remarkably effective in setting up other techniques, since it is nearly impossible to regain visibility for at least a second if you receive a good direct strike to the nose. I do have a lot of techniques that strike to the biceps, especially in the bo defense combinations I have.

Please note that I by no means say my approach is the only one. I train in a variety of systems, and have seen lots of good approaches. Some have said that my approach is limiting because I pass up so much by not practicing other approaches. But I have hundreds of combinations, all with takedowns, more than I could ever master, and plenty more than I could ever teach. So I am content with my system of a few kata with lots of bunkai. As I and my students come up with new ideas that conform directly to the movements of kata and end with takedowns, they become part of our repertoire.

Regarding your question of "obvious ones". I know my techniques are not widely practiced in kata bunkai, although the principles are common to many fighting arts. What surprises me is that more people don't see these techniques which to me seem so obvious. So I guess obvious is in the eyes of the beholder.


----------



## Sauzin (Jun 23, 2003)

I have another question.  What is the greatest number of kata you have known a Shito-Ryu stylist to practice.  How about any Okinawan system stylist?  I am wishing to know simply to establish a point of reference (i.e. lowest is 1-3 and highest is...).

I have heard my sensei make reference to Bruce Heilman on a few occasions.  It is my understanding that they have met on several occasions.



> Some systems, like Shotokan, and the Okinawa Kenpo kata I have done in Bruce Heilman's dojo, fold the left arm up under the right for the nukite. This folding part is a significant component of the takedown. (Although I have done RyuKyu Kempo kata, I have forgotten whether this left hand under right triceps pattern is maintained.)



In Odo's Kusanku Dai as I have been taught it, the left hand parries or folds downward as the nukite shoots out.  At the nukite's final extension the right elbow is directly over the first and second knuckle of the left parrying hand.  Now depending on which kata your doing (Pinan Shodan or Kusanku Dai) things proceed slightly differently.  In Kusanku an 180 degree turn occurs, during this turn the hand does stay underneath the arm untill the last moment as it is clearing infront of the face.  So as the turn moves around both arms raise at first still connected, then the left arm clears back as the right simultaneously strikes.  The neat thing about this motion is very rarely do people see the strike coming as by the time the block or parry connects the strike is inches from it's target.  

Now Pinan Shodan is very similar except that moments before the turn is initiated the left hand is flipped palm up above the right, maintaining contact at the top of the wrist.  The turn here is also a 225 degree turn.  However this kata also maintains contact of the hand to the arm during the turn, though in a different position.

My sensei was very meticulous when studying with Odo.  He would ask him, "Is it done this way? Or is it done this other way?" on every little thing.  Odo would not otherwise verbally correct little aspects as his English was not great and he really preferred to show things instead of saying things.  Only problem is you were often flying through the air when he would show you, so the "is it this way or that" was a valuable method of getting specifics.  

I really like your interpretations of these movements.  I have had a difficult time with the throw at the end.  Of course I'm not changing angles the way you are.  That's something I need to do more.  Some movements in kata seem to be far too difficult if you stress keeping everything the exact direction, foot position, and height as the kata.  Sometimes tweaking a few things makes it flow much better.  After all kata must conform to your situation not the situation to your kata, right?.  

Thanks again for your time.

-Paul Holsinger


----------



## Shuri-te (Jun 23, 2003)

Paul,

It is good to hear your teacher was such a diligent student of Master Odo. You are lucky to have him. 

In my description of the technique in Pinan Shodan/Kusanku, I did not describe the takedown, as my post was already so long. I wasn't withholding anything, just waiting for someone to ask. But now that you brought it up.

Let's review where we are prior to the takedown. The attacker has his left foot forward, but is bent over with his left forearm wrapped over your right forearm. The knife hand of your right hand (or just above on the wrist) is wedged tightly on the joint of the elbow, just above it, squeezing the indentation just above the top ulna. The focus of your power in the chamber is on your hand, driving this bend in his elbow in and down. Your hand will be in a different location on your abdomen, depending on the difference in height between you and your attacker, and the depth of your stance. Ideally, your hand is as close to your hara (an inch below your navel) as you can make it, though on tall attackers, it will be higher. Your left hand has just struck the back of his neck. Your left foot is under his head. (There is a trick to making this a more powerful strike and can share it if you would like me to do so on another post.)

You are now ready to begin the throw. First you need to grab his left biceps with your right hand. You need to pull your right hand back approximately four to five inches and  let your thumb pop out so now you are grabbing his upper arm with the web of your hand squeezing his lower biceps. As you step forward into nukite, you push your right hand straight forward just like in nukite, but your hand is cupped, pushing the arm.

Your left hand is the most important and you need to drive his head straight down hard. First, slide your hand up the back of his head from his neck, about three to four inches. As you step forward use your left hand to drive down hard, simultaneously pushing your right hand and his arm, up over his head. As you complete the circle, your left hand winds up just under the triceps/elbow on your extended right arm, just like the kata. 

Regarding the turn, you don't need to do much. There is a bit of a pivot, but virtually the whole takedown is done stepping forward on the nukite, so the differences between Pinan Shodan and Kusanku are not very important. 

Against a big attacker, it works, but is slow. Against an attacker just a little bigger, you can take them down quickly. If the shuto doesn't work, prior to stepping forward for the throw, I recommend kicking them in the nose with your left foot. Recall that in Shotokan (back stance) and most Shorin Ryu (cat stance) the weight is on the back right leg in this stance. So it is no problem to snap up your shin right into the attacker's nose. This is pretty disorienting and could be enough to set up the final throw.

Like every other combination, it needs to be done fast, which is why I recommend at least sometimes, practicing kata combinations as fast as you can. There are several steps in this movement and they all have to be done in rapid succession. 

Please let me know if the takedown works for you. As I said, this is common to several Chinese arts and JuJutsu.

Regarding the number of Shito Ryu kata, there are lots of sources regarding which ones are in the ~50. If you go to www.shitoryu.org and from the top bar pick skills then kata, you will see 53 listed. Hayashi's system also practices four of the Ryue Ryu kata since he studied with Nakaima. And many practice lots of kobudo, often from Taira Shinken, but in Hayashi's case, Nakaima's kata as well. I have a number of Shito Ryu colleagues that enjoy collecting kobudo kata just as Mabuni collected empty hand kata. John Sells has published some of his research on http://www.martialsource.com/kobudovideos.htm

Regarding systems that practice a few kata, I can address that in another post on this thread. 

You had one more question, an enlightened one: "After all kata must conform to your situation not the situation to your kata, right?" I will start another thread with that thought. Kenwa Mabuni has written almost the exact same words. 

I have enjoyed the opportunity to answer your questions and have really valued your feedback. Thank you for your kind words.


----------



## arnisador (Dec 30, 2003)

http://www.e-budo.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23657


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 19, 2004)

> _Originally posted by chufeng _
> *Karate is not the same as CMA...
> 
> Yes, it is...
> ...



I don't think I agree with this at all. I think in the generalized, "there are only a set number of body movements" way, all MA are similar. However, I had the opportunity recently to talk with some advancd karate guys (and girl) and we did forms/katas for each other. Even the basic philiosophy and application of moves is very different. Comparing a snake fist or dil sao to a sun punch, it is very different indeed. While both systems contain similar things, they are by no means similar martial arts.

Ok, off my soapbox now....

7sm


----------



## arnisador (Jan 19, 2004)

Well, Okinawan Karate is modified Southern Chinese Kung Fu, and Japanese Karate is modified Okinawan Karate, so there is a relationship...I think that that's the point. To dismiss it as "there are only a set number of body movements" is way off base. Some forms of Karate are still essentially Kung Fu--Uechi-ryu, for example.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Well, Okinawan Karate is modified Southern Chinese Kung Fu, and Japanese Karate is modified Okinawan Karate, so there is a relationship...I think that that's the point. To dismiss it as "there are only a set number of body movements" is way off base. Some forms of Karate are still essentially Kung Fu--Uechi-ryu, for example. *



Grant it, there are similarities that go beyond my oversimplification, but similarities do not a system make. I mean, there are more similarities between Eagle Claw kung fu and mantis kung fu than there are between these systems of karate and kung fu, and yet they are still extremely different in application, and even philosophy. The snake guys with their snake fists are crazy, horrible to try and defend agasint, yet still very similar to mantis, but extremely different as well. 

I think these systems of karate were influenced greatly by kung fu, but have incorporated differing applications, and philosophies to make them a seperate system. The key word being "modified". 

JMHO,
 7sm


----------



## arnisador (Jan 20, 2004)

Fair enough. I see it as evolution--which, contrary to popular belief, doesn't mean "better" but rather implies "better suited for a particular time and place". There was mixing with indigenous arts but the kata of Karate are the forms of Southern Chinese Kung Fu, modified both by design and by simply being separated from the original and evolving on their own.


----------



## 7starmantis (Jan 20, 2004)

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *Fair enough. I see it as evolution--which, contrary to popular belief, doesn't mean "better" but rather implies "better suited for a particular time and place". There was mixing with indigenous arts but the kata of Karate are the forms of Southern Chinese Kung Fu, modified both by design and by simply being separated from the original and evolving on their own. *



True, I can agree with that.

7sm


----------



## tshadowchaser (Jan 20, 2004)

I think time and distance will transform a form (kata) into something a little different and unique. This may be only because the person doing the form is away from their instructor and may have forgotten a move or added one without meaning to or simply done it incorctly for so long its' the only way they know how to do it. When they teach this form to the next generation it is changed forever. Do this a couple of times over a 50 year period of time and it may not even look the same as the original


----------



## IMAA (Jan 23, 2004)

When thinking of Kata do you look at it as a factor of running it for sport in the perfection sense?

     Or when you run Kata do you look at it as an application factor?

 To me there are a few different types of people who are Kata people.

1. Someone who runs kata and learns to perfect its movements and make it a crowd pleaser, for Tournament and show. They put alot of different elements within it, extra hard breathing, slower movements, deeper stances, Music, Smoke pyrotechnics, the high flying gymnastic type effects.  To me those people are looking at Kata for the mere reason of performance to win over an audience.

2. Someone who looks at kata in an example of fighting "multiple" opponents, each movement is an encounter with a different person/attacker. This person may understand the "TYPICAL" mindset of each technique as taught to them. As an example
From an Front Kick you turn to get in a forward/front stance and execute a typical low block, then step into a forward stance reverse punch.  Then your next move your defending yourself against another person.  This is another example of Bunkai not always the most realistic in my opinion.

3.  Someone who looks at the form/kata from another angle.  They see each movement as a technique and breaks it down not quite the exact same way as its ran. But the idea/concepts are the same, they look at and attack areas of the body using Blocks as strikes to certain points of the body to make the opponent less aggressive.  This student recognizes each movement or technque in kata as seperate from another.  For example
Attacker Grabs there lapel/shoulder, the student grabs the hand in attempt to trap it in place, and turns offsetting the attackers balance, and executes a low block (in theory) but it actually is a wrist lock and attacks a certain point within the body. Then offsets the balance and hits him in another point resulting in a Knock out or a series of attacks.   Then looks at each movement thruout the kata as a one on one approach.  The more advanced you get you can pick out a double attacker situation.

    Now which student is wrong? Which student is right?  I think that is up to the student and what he wants to get out of the art he teaches/learns.  But its best to be open to all options or at least 2 out of the three.  

Finding and understanding Kata is self mastery within your martial art.


----------



## Budospirit (Feb 1, 2004)

> _Originally posted by Sauzin _
> *I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it.  How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit?
> 
> Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.
> ...




I asked the same question to someone on a Kobujutsu course in the UK and his answer was that someone has to preserve the kata in their original form or eventually they will be lost forever if we pick and chose what kata we study. In the system I study (Yuishinkai) there are many kata in both the karate and kobujutsu and tend to focus on the core kata and look at the other as and when I can.. I have to say though especially in the weapons kata particularly the Bo and Sai techniques do have a habit of repeating themselves.


----------



## Druss (Feb 11, 2004)

A kata in my opinion is like telling a story .....

Not only do u show which style u belong to , u also show what the style is all about and how passionate u are about it . It also should shows wat ur skill level is and wat the art means to u ......

Based on this there should be 1 single kata for your level . ie , one for nidan level , one for shodan level etc


----------



## Karazenpo (May 9, 2004)

I'm a kempo man also but my system is the Hawaiian-derived Shaolin Kempo of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu of Sijo Victor Gascon and it's direct offshoot, Nick Cerio's Kenpo. However, we practice kata much like traditional Okinawan/Japanese. As a matter of fact many of our katas have either been borrowed from with some modification or inspired from traditional karate kata, others are indigneous to our kenpo system. I started training in 1973. Back then, I was totally into building power on the heavy bag, aggressive sparring including what was called then 'full contact karate' and self defense techniques, didn't care for kata that much at all. That has long since changed and I am a firm believer in practicing kata just as the traditions of the Okinawan disciplines do. I feel much can be derived from constant practice. It keeps all your core movements and techniques finely oiled along with the joints which you will all feel as time goes on, lol. Kata provides the basic framework for practicing all technique. It's great solo training and keeps your speed, power, accuracy up while providing excellent physical conditioning. As one gets older all those injuries that were blown off by us when we were younger starts to raise it's ugly head and hard contact and sparring is no longer the emphasis or your body WILL self destruct. I also feel the number of kata practiced in most systems today is complete overkill and repetitive, same with the overkill of techniques. I feel each practitioner should pick a very limited number of kata which they tend to gravitate toward and that would be their personal set. That is your major, that is what you attempt to master. Of all the katas Professor Cerio knew, his specialization was only one kata called Circle of the Tiger of which he created from Karazenpo's first form, with modifications and additions to fit his own perspective. In Hawaii, in the early years of kenpo, all the tough legendary bad *** street fighters of our lineage trained with strong basics and a limited number of techniques which when  borrowed upon from the basics would create others. Kata training was added and again, limited. Our mother system, Kajukenbo originally had just 8 forms, since increased to 14. Around 1960, Sijo Gascon taught the original 5 forms of Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu which were distilled from Kajukenbo's original sets. They put out some real 'world beaters' back then, both on the street and in tournament competition. I also believe many make fighting too complicated. Generally speaking, human beings have two arms and two legs to attack you with along with the head butt, that's it. There is a finite and very limited number of ways to carry out that attack, the rest are just minor variations. Therefore there is a limited number or responses. Strong, balanced kata backed by strong basics and a limited number or 'core' techniques should cover that. I firmly believe that was an important part of the answer to the question of why these old masters were so damn good! They learned 10 different techniques, 100 different ways then 100 different techniques never really learned. Just my opinion. Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## Littledragon (Jun 26, 2004)

Sauzin said:
			
		

> I have a relatively simple to ask but in depth to answer, question and I would appreciate any comments or reasoning related to it. How many different kata (either empty handed or kobudo) do you think it is necessary to practice to gain their maximum benefit? Do you think there is a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata? Lets assume the normal time constraints of a single working male. For example do you think 13 empty handed kata is a good number or perhaps 4, or perhaps 32? With Kobudo do you think 50 is appropriate, or 10? What is your reasoning?
> 
> Thank-you in advance for your insight and time.
> 
> -Paul Holsinger


Kata like any martial art forms unite the mind and body in one. The kata is the "art" side to the martial arts, it is the inner chi or ki and it is the philosophy being acted out. I believe there is no limit to how many kata's one can practice to gain their maximum benefit. There can never be a point where a person could know or practice too many different kata's because kata is the internal part of martial arts, everything has two side good and evil, short and tall, yin and yang, and the internal part of martial arts is the second part and the kata provides that. Kata is very important for a martial artist because it sets the tone for a certain momement where the martial artist is controlling his or her mentality by practiving kata. Kata is the second side to martial arts so I say in my opinion there is never a situation where you can say is there too much kata. Remember everything has to sides to it, with out the second what you are practcing is incomplete.

Tarek :asian:


----------



## RW2 (Jul 20, 2004)

I think 14 kata, at maximum, is best. How did I arrive at that number? My teacher told me it was important to review all the kata you know every week, and I think that practicing more than two kata in a day is confusing to your "muscle memory" or conditioning.

Kobayashi Shorin-ryu originally had 13 kata; Wado-ryu had 9; Goju-ryu had 12 (when their curricula were organized in the 1930s). These are reasonable kata lists. And of course they've all doubled or tripled in the typical school today, just to keep students (and teachers) interested. 

In addition to limiting kata lists, I think it's also important not to mix and match kata; in each of these school examples, the kata are related and build on each other. For example, the five Pinan kata are essentially Reader's Digest versions of Kusanku-dai and Chinto; if you practice the Pinan, then advance to Kusanku-dai, your body goes "a ha!" and there's real learning. However, if you're also studying a variety of unrelated forms (e.g. Goju forms where you turn around on the opposite foot), the return on investment is limited.

There are only so many things you can do with four limbs. It doesn't take 50 kata to review them. And for regular folks, i.e. people with jobs, family, etc., keeping more kata than that at a high level of maintenance is unreasonable. I recommend focusing on one style, and keeping the list to 14 or fewer.


----------



## gyaku-zuki queen (Jul 21, 2004)

Old Fat Kenpoka said:
			
		

> One Kata is too many if your training time is limited. What do you get by studying Kata? I'll tell you. You get good at Tai Chi. I spent too much time practicing and teaching Kata. I should have spent all my time conditioning, working the bag, and sparring. So should you.


acually, by studying kata you learn more about what you are doing in the kata, and you get alot out of it. It helps your kumite in many ways, form for one. In tournament they will not award you the point if the technique is crappy. 
If you are a kumite person, like me, training for kumite and conditioning is great, but upping up on ur kata will help alot too.


----------



## Ippon Ken (Jul 22, 2004)

Great posts!

If the kata you do can be broken into 2-man drills (yakusuko kumite), with each technique adaptively applicable to a myriad of situations, then it is good. If it's done solely for the purpose of going through the motions, looking flashy or being overly dramatic, then you have what Sokon Matsumura coined "nominal budo" or the "budo of intellect". Like tournament oriented karate it is concerned with the wrong intetnions and lessons.

If the kata you do passes on the techs and principles of the ryu you are in, then it is good kata. If it takes 50 forms to accomplish this, then you have to question what it is you are learning, and if you're truly learning anything in-depth at all. We are not Kenwa Mabuni. There is no need to re-catalog the kata he collected over the years. Trying to master all the idiosyncracies of every style of tote is unrealistic. Mabuni did it in order to preserve those Okinawan and Chinese forms he was exposed to. I doubt he or Funakoshi truly mastered all the forms they learned from Shorin and Shorei Ryu.

That being said if you are in a ryuha that has over 25 kata, don't expect to understand them fully or perfect them. That would take diligence and practice beyond the average human lifespan. Take those kata which apply to you the best- your body type, maneuverability, speed, etc.- and refine them and understand them. This, of course, should be done when you reach a yudansha (BB) level. 8-12 will be a lot for even the most avid and dedicated karate-ka to truly understand. If every movement is a defensive or offensive application, which can vary (e.g: an x-block can be a strike, choke or block/trap) then imagine how long it would take to learn to apply these bunkai effectively!

Great topic, and remember that the kata is the ryu. Too much drift and you have a different ryuha. Preserving them as intact as they can be is the most important attribute lost in kata training today.

Peace!


----------



## hippy (Jul 23, 2004)

There is no such thing as too much kata !

if everyone just kept training in a select few kata, the next generation of martial artists will have less of an art to learn, they may find themselves missing a vital kata that would help them unlock their understanding of technique.

i currently know about 25 kata, and i've not even scratched the surface. i've seen shotokan syllabus' upto 8th dan, where 10 kata are needed to reach 1st dan, the karateka must then learn a further 5 kata for 2nd dan, of which they will be asked to perform any 3 of the panels choice (therefore, the need to know all is mandatory). for each subsequent dan grade, a further 5 kata were available. again, only 3 would be asked for, but it would be simply embarrasing for the karateka, to simply stand there and admit they dont know the kata during the grading. 

i have seen 10 versions of tokyoko (some of u may know it as kihon), for those of u that dont know this kata, it is a simple one made up of one blocking technique, and one striking technique, both are repeated numerous times, and the kata forms a basic I shape. now i, personally have only been taught 3 versions.
i have also seen, during martial arts demos, 10 versions of bassai.

by all means, hone your skills on a select few kata, but never forget the rest. we are all doing art forms, where the skills are passed on via word-of-mouth. just because a kata makes no sense to yourself, it may help a student of yours to explain the whole style, who knows ?
very rarely is martial arts properly recorded to pass on the knowledge, appart from those attempting to cash-in, charging £30 for a 30minute video on 5 kata.

No limit for kata, learn them all ! Pass on them all !


----------



## DeLamar.J (Jul 30, 2004)

I think there should be two kata per belt, one hard style and one soft. So about 11 kata, any more than that is just over kill and useless IMO.


----------



## Karazenpo (Jul 31, 2004)

hippy said:
			
		

> There is no such thing as too much kata !
> 
> if everyone just kept training in a select few kata, the next generation of martial artists will have less of an art to learn, they may find themselves missing a vital kata that would help them unlock their understanding of technique.
> 
> ...



I can agree with 'hippy' if you are a teacher. You should have a surplus of kata to fit all body styles and personal attributes, sort of like the menu approach. If three of us go out to eat we may order off the same menu, yet each choosing something different that most appeals to our personal taste and again, I also agree that our personal 'core' should be limited to only a few if not the one, our personal kata(s) or favorite kata(s) that fits us like a glove. I know with Professor Nick Cerio, despite his vast knowledge of kata, it was 'Circle of the Tiger'. He considered that the nucleus of his system and his 'baby' as he would say.  Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## Karazenpo (Jul 31, 2004)

RW2 said:
			
		

> I think 14 kata, at maximum, is best. How did I arrive at that number? My teacher told me it was important to review all the kata you know every week, and I think that practicing more than two kata in a day is confusing to your "muscle memory" or conditioning.
> 
> Kobayashi Shorin-ryu originally had 13 kata; Wado-ryu had 9; Goju-ryu had 12 (when their curricula were organized in the 1930s). These are reasonable kata lists. And of course they've all doubled or tripled in the typical school today, just to keep students (and teachers) interested.
> 
> ...



I also totally agree with KW2's statement and I've always used it myself in regards to the 'overkill' of self defense techniques: "There are only so many things you can do with four limbs." Fighting movements, in my opinion, are not infinite but finite. I would like to also add in Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu there are 19 forms. The first 11 are mandatory and are your foundation to develop the basic framework. Then you do not have to attempt to 'master' all eight of the advanced but choose either one or two from the eight and that is your specialization. I think this makes total sense.  Respectfully, Professor Joe Shuras


----------



## jakmak52 (Oct 14, 2004)

I know 9, but I know fellow martial artists that know and DO 32!!! God love em.


----------



## Patrick Skerry (Oct 23, 2004)

Too many if you cannot perfect all of them, not enough if you don't learn enough techniques to defend yourself.


----------



## kishoto (Mar 6, 2005)

Doing and mastering a kata are two diffrent things in 38 years i have preformed many katas including weapons but mastered only a few. kishoto


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 6, 2005)

The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms. Not all are called Katas, which is a Karate term. The systems is mixed with Korean, Chinese and Japanese...so we call them forms to not over emphasize one.


----------



## RRouuselot (Mar 7, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> *The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms. *Not all are called Katas, which is a Karate term. The systems is mixed with Korean, Chinese and Japanese...so we call them forms to not over emphasize one.


 What style is it?


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 7, 2005)

Chin Gah Kuyhn....

but the head sifus, really do not want to call it anything...


----------



## RRouuselot (Mar 7, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> 1) Chin Gah Kuyhn....
> 
> 2) but the head sifus, really do not want to call it anything...


 
 1)    What language is it and what does it mean?


 2) Who is he and why doesn't he want to call it anything?


----------



## 47MartialMan (Mar 7, 2005)

_RRouuselot]1) What language is it and what does it mean?_
Mandarin-
It means "Chin Family Fist"
But some Chinese romanticization would spell it Ga or Gar.
And in some romanticization, Kuyhn would be spelled Kuen, Kyuhn, or Kune.

_2) Who is he and why doesn't he want to call it anything?_
Because they did not want to give emphasis on one name. There were other instructors whom have contributed to the "family art". Although it may seem eclectic, most of the practitioners prefer the "Chin" name.

Some instructors of higher rank, went out and form their own name.

Think of it as a family.

Great Grand Dad passed a tradition to son(s) and/or daughters.

These in turn pass it on to other sons- and/or daughters.

Being that daughters, receive the name of their spouse, and in this large "family", the spouse had fully accepted and practices the tradition-
Thus, in turn, a "new" family name will surface.

But I prefer to state that I learn, practice, and teach, a _martial art system_, rather than a _martial art style_.


----------



## thepanjr (Mar 17, 2005)

i think 30 is really good number for katas


----------



## arnisador (Nov 28, 2005)

47MartialMan said:
			
		

> The martial art system that I practice has about 103 forms.


 
I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.


----------



## Eternal Beginner (Nov 28, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.



I tend to agree with you.  But it is also important to consider how kata is learned, studied, practiced.  I went to a school where kata was purely a tool for promotion.  You learned a,b,c kata and you were promoted to next belt.  No bunkai, no discussion just "follow me" and do exactly as I do.  It was a memory exercise more than anything.  That type of kata is pointless and one is too many.

On the other hand, if kata is taught by knowledgeable instructors who are not using it solely as a basis for promotion you can learn many kata and get valuable things from them.  

How many is too many?  One, if taught poorly - but if taught well you should never stop learning.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 29, 2005)

Eternal Beginner said:
			
		

> I tend to agree with you. But it is also important to consider how kata is learned, studied, practiced. I went to a school where kata was purely a tool for promotion. You learned a,b,c kata and you were promoted to next belt. No bunkai, no discussion just "follow me" and do exactly as I do. It was a memory exercise more than anything. That type of kata is pointless and one is too many.
> 
> On the other hand, if kata is taught by knowledgeable instructors who are not using it solely as a basis for promotion you can learn many kata and get valuable things from them.
> 
> How many is too many? One, if taught poorly - but if taught well you should never stop learning.


 
Yes, I think you have hit this on the head.


----------



## Flying Crane (Nov 29, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've heard that some Kung Fu styles have over a hundred forms (typically the magic number of 108). It seems like too much to me. More and more I come to the "less can be more" way of thinking.


 
I have heard that Lohan had 108 forms, one for each of the 108 Buddhist saints.  I have learned two of them.  My sifu knows six.  Given the length of the two that I know, I cannot imagine that anyone could have known, much less mastered, all 108 (assuming that this is an accurate number).  You would have to practice 24/7, and still not do it enough.


----------



## Eternal Beginner (Nov 29, 2005)

Flying Crane said:
			
		

> Yes, I think you have hit this on the head.



Thank you!:asian:


----------



## DavidCC (Nov 29, 2005)

We have 10 kata to reach black belt.  Then we have 5 more after that to reach 5th.  Right now I am 5th kyu and know 6 kata and am learning a 7th:

pinan 1, pinan 2, pinan 3, kata 1, kata 2 (aren't those great names, very informative LOL it's Shaolin Kempo so mostly based on the Pesare/Cerio kata if you want to know) and also seisan, which is technically a post-shodan level form in our system.  

I am also learning sanchin but I wouldn't say I "know" it yet.  It is also post-shodan.

To reach 1st black I still need to learn pinan 4 and 5, and katas 3,4,5.  Of course at that time I will be ahead of the game because I will have the 1st & 2nd dan kata memorized (I say memorized because I am sure that there are nuances to them that I will am missing now)

So, I think about 10 is a good number


----------



## IWishToLearn (Dec 20, 2005)

I've studied several systems - with various amounts of forms.

Yasashii Do - my level is 2nd Black - I have 23 katas that I've learned the motions for, and maybe four of them I'd consider to have mastered to a degree that I can interpret on the fly multiple explanations and variations of the moves and techniques. I've also had to create my own fighting form in preparation for 3rd Dan.

Tae Kwon Do - Up through Red Belt/1st Black Stripe I've learned 10 poomses - with maybe three or four I could interpret on the fly.

Kenpo - I've recently been promoted to Purple Belt by the IKCA, and our main form is all the techniques linked together in one form. Having not completed all the techniques I can't even come close to interpreting this one yet.

I've done lots of forms, not many I regularly practice. I have a couple that for whatever reason are near & dear to my heart and fit my fighting philosophy, outside of those couple I have to really discipline myself to practice the rest.


----------



## PictonMA (Dec 28, 2005)

Quality before quantity.

Learn one kata and perform it well before you move on to the next.

I don't care if your system has one kata or twenty, if you can't learn one and do it fairly well then should you really be learning another?

I can appreicate learning a few 'beginner' kata, but beyond that having 50 kata in your system is kind of pointless if you aren't doing them worth a damn.


----------



## Autocrat (Dec 29, 2005)

... How many kata is too many kata? ...
Not wanting to be esoteric or sound a little odd... but you might want to rephrase the question and ask it of yoursefl....

"how many kata is too many kata for me?"

It's not just about the MA, Style or Club.... it's also down to the practioner....
Our club has around 10 Core Kata (including kihon stuff) to reach Dan, but there are additional ones we practice for fun... from various other styles of karate and even Tai Chi, Saido, Kung Fu etc.....
Yet everyone is encouraged to practice their "favourite(s)"... I prefer Pinan, Sanchin and Nai Han Chi ...... so I practice those three alot.

If you look to the "old Masters", most only had a couple, and practiced those thoroughly..... and became incrediably diverse with those few Kata....
Just because a system has multiple doesn't mean you should have to learn multiple.... you use them for grading, you "must" use them for learning..... yet you take the most from those you prefer, and it will be (should be) those that you fall back on in a fight.....   You'd be amazed at what is in a simple form.... I love Pinan Nidan due to the fact that it works for strikes, throws and a bit of grappling/groundwork, it also suits medium and small forms of kobudo. I can quite happily spend 30 minutes working on that kata and the bunkai!

So...... try asking yourself the questions....
How many is to many for me?
Why that amount?
Which would I choose to practice over others?
Why would I choose those?
What will I get, (give myself), from those Kata?
Do the Kata differ, are there enough techniques to get me by, and not to many to stiffle reflex training?

Answer those questions yourself, and you'll not only be happier, but also find yourself training better, and, if it's important to you, you'll also have the correct answer!


----------



## jujutsu_indonesia (Jan 3, 2006)

I know a guy who practiced several VERSIONS of ONE KATA. He practices Kushanku Dai, Kushanku Sho, Shiho Kosokun and Chatan Yara Kushanku. I think he is doing an overkill. I mean, one kushanku is enough, am I right?


----------



## kenpojujitsu (Jan 11, 2006)

If you do so many kata that you are getting them confused,
or
you are not spending enough time on each and the quality suffers at the expense of quantity,

then you are doing to many kata.

It is better to know/do a few kata well than many kata poorly.  But better to do many kata well than a few well.


----------



## Cirdan (Feb 2, 2006)

How many kata is too many? I guess it depends on how it is trained. 

Kobudo tend to be kata heavy (four for each weapon with two sides each?)but with the two person kata you also have the chanse to train reaction and adaption to your opponent. 
The club where I train karate uses a total of 20 kata. A high number perhaps, but 2 of them are very simple ones for beginners and 9 others are taught at black belt level and avove.
I also train at a Ju Jutsu school wich uses no kata at all. Most of the time here is spent doing two person drills and combinations.


----------



## marlon (Apr 17, 2006)

Shuri-te said:
			
		

> Can you tell me if Kenpo is different? Is it a general practice to teach applications for the movements in kata? And if so, in general, how quickly are they taught and for what percentage of the kata?
> 
> 
> In American kenpo from my understanding the forms are a string of techniques thast are also taught outside of kata
> ...


 
Respectfully,
Marlon


----------



## marlon (Apr 17, 2006)

Forgive me Sensei,
does not kusanku contain all of the pinan concepts and techniques?  At least this was an understanding given to me...i do not have kusanku, but pinan 1 to 5

Respectfully,
Marlon...

I might be able to help with some ideas from Pinan Shodan, and Yondan, Naihanchi Shodan and Kusanku. I have some ideas on video that you might find useful.[/quote]


----------



## Brandon Fisher (May 6, 2006)

Yes Kusanku and Kanku Dai same kata basically performed slightly different does contain pretty much everything from the Pinan / Heian series.  My research if I remember correctly Itosu Sensei created the Pinan series from Kunsanku.


----------



## Explorer (May 23, 2006)

I was just at a seminar working on Pinan 3.  The instructor there gave this history ... sort of ... I'm doing it from memory.

Itosu Sensei created the Pinan's 1, 3, 4 and 5.  Apparently, he needed the permission of his master to develop kata.  So, he created Pinan 1, showed it to his master and requested the master develop the other kata.  The master created Pinan 2 then told Itosu to finish the rest, viola ... permission.

Another kata in addition to Kusanku was mentioned ... can't remember the name.


----------



## Explorer (May 23, 2006)

As far as the basic question is concerned, I think it's up to the practioner.  A friend of mine, in his mid 60s, is a sixth dan.  He travels to Okinawa every year for six weeks to train with the master of his system.  He knows nearly 30 kata, but practices only 6 seriously.

I know somewhere in the vicinity of 20 kata but currently practice 12.  I tend to string them all together as one long kata.  It's really fun, the people at Gold's Gym think I'm a Tai Chi master.


----------



## pstarr (May 31, 2006)

Each individual kata is a complete fighting system unto itself.  You could conceivably spend a lifetime training just one kata.

     The number of kata isn't what matters.  It's what you put into and subsequently get out of it/them.

     My teacher said that the forms are the books which contain all relevant information about a particular system.  But first you have to learn how to spell and read the words (inidividual techniques), and then how to put them together in intelligible phrases that makes sense (combinations of techniques that work well together).
      Then you start with a basic "book" and study it.


----------



## Cirdan (May 31, 2006)

Explorer said:
			
		

> I was just at a seminar working on Pinan 3. The instructor there gave this history ... sort of ... I'm doing it from memory.
> 
> Itosu Sensei created the Pinan's 1, 3, 4 and 5. Apparently, he needed the permission of his master to develop kata. So, he created Pinan 1, showed it to his master and requested the master develop the other kata. The master created Pinan 2 then told Itosu to finish the rest, viola ... permission.
> 
> Another kata in addition to Kusanku was mentioned ... can't remember the name.


 
I think I heard something about a "forgotten" kata named Channan also influencing the Pinan series. Anyone know more about this?


----------



## stone_dragone (Jun 4, 2006)

I teach 18 open hand forms and 3 staff forms to black belt.  I teach:

-Two variations on the Takioku forms 
-The Heian series  
-Two Gekasai forms
-Sanchin 
-Saifa 
-Bassai 
-Kanku 
-Seyunchin -
-Jion 
-Tekki/Naihanchi shodan... and...
-two forms from the Kwanmu Zendokai system (Kwanmu Shodan and Nidan).  

After Black belt I teach Wankan, Hangetsu and Chung Mu.


----------



## Explorer (Jun 4, 2006)

> Cirdan said:
> 
> 
> 
> > I think I heard something about a "forgotten" kata named Channan also influencing the Pinan series. Anyone know more about this?



THAT'S IT!  Channan was the other kata mentioned as another potential source for the Pinans.  And ... no, I don't know anything about it.


----------

