# Internal = advanced in "hard" kungu and vicc



## TietKiu3 (Aug 28, 2016)

Hello. I practice Yee family Hung Ga Kung Fu. In hung ga, our most advanced hand form is Tiet Sing Kuen (Iron wire/thread/rope fist/pattern), which is mostly an internal form. I wanted to ask, is that the case in other "hard" kung fu styles? And is it the other way around in "soft" styles?


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 28, 2016)

Old saying in CMA

Internal goes to external and external goes to internal

Basically, trained correctly, they both end up in the same place


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 28, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Old saying in CMA
> 
> Internal goes to external and external goes to internal
> 
> Basically, trained correctly, they both end up in the same place


 
So the answer is yes.


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 28, 2016)

I feel that it depends on the person. Some people find Internal MA easier, others find external easier. That said, in the style I practice (which is a mix of hard and soft), the most advanced form in this system is a soft style, and most of the earlier forms focus on the more external elements. I don't know if this is the case with other Chinese Martial Arts.


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 28, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I feel that it depends on the person. Some people find Internal MA easier, others find external easier. That said, in the style I practice (which is a mix of hard and soft), the most advanced form in this system is a soft style, and most of the earlier forms focus on the more external elements. I don't know if this is the case with other Chinese Martial Arts.



So I've got another yes. What style do you practice?


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## Midnight-shadow (Aug 28, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> So I've got another yes. What style do you practice?



I practice a Tiger-Crane combination variation of Fujian White Crane. Most of the forms incorporate both hard and soft elements but the most advanced form is a pure soft form and is the basis of our Tai Chi.


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 28, 2016)

Midnight-shadow said:


> I practice a Tiger-Crane combination variation of Fujian White Crane. Most of the forms incorporate both hard and soft elements but the most advanced form is a pure soft form and is the basis of our Tai Chi.


As you probably know, tiger crane is in hung ga. Fu hok seung ying kuen is one of the three treasures.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> Hello. I practice Yee family Hung Ga Kung Fu. In hung ga, our most advanced hand form is Tiet Sing Kuen (Iron wire/thread/rope fist/pattern), which is mostly an internal form. I wanted to ask, is that the case in other "hard" kung fu styles? And is it the other way around in "soft" styles?


I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and the system has both "hard" and "soft" techniques.  I think the system views it as a balance.  I also train Tai Chi and while most of it is soft there are parts that are hard.  The only difference is the duration in which hard technique is applied versus the duration in which soft technique is applied.  Hard styles will often smash things by default and then use internal methods in flashes.  Soft styles will often use soft techniques by default and will smash things only for a short flash of time and only when needed.

In Jow Ga most of our hard techniques have a soft version of the same technique.  Some techniques can enter using force and exit using soft techniques.  But with that said, we smash by default.


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 29, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and the system has both "hard" and "soft" techniques.  I think the system views it as a balance.  I also train Tai Chi and while most of it is soft there are parts that are hard.  The only difference is the duration in which hard technique is applied versus the duration in which soft technique is applied.  Hard styles will often smash things by default and then use internal methods in flashes.  Soft styles will often use soft techniques by default and will smash things only for a short flash of time and only when needed.
> 
> In Jow Ga most of our hard techniques have a soft version of the same technique.  Some techniques can enter using force and exit using soft techniques.  But with that said, we smash by default.



In hung ga we also have hard and soft techniques. In Jow ga, are the basic forms mostly hard?


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## Flying Crane (Aug 29, 2016)

I believe it is very difficult to classify Tibetan White Crane as strict my internal or external.  I don't think it really fits either description, strictly speaking.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> In hung ga we also have hard and soft techniques. In Jow ga, are the basic forms mostly hard?


Yes.


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 29, 2016)

And as you move up, you concentrate on softness more?


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> And as you move up, you concentrate on softness more?


As I move up I learn how to use both together and learn more about the internal techniques founding Jow Ga.  1st form has 7 techniques that are taught as soft. The 4th form has 14.


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 29, 2016)

So the answer is yes.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> So the answer is yes.


The accurate answer for me is that I get introduced to more soft techniques and concentrate on them just a much as the hard techniques. I wouldn't say that I concentrate on one more than the other.  The only time I do that is when I practicing Tai Chi.  In that case I throw out all of my hard technique focus


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## TietKiu3 (Aug 29, 2016)

I never said you concentrated on one more than the other. What I meant is that as you get more advanced, the more softness there is. 

In the first form we teach, gung gee fuk fu kuen, there is very little softness. In the second, fu hok seung ying kuen, the concept of hardness and softness  and combining the two is properly introduced. And, there are more soft techniques than in gung gee fuk fu. In the third, ng ying kuen, the concept is deepened, and again, there is more softness. In the most advanced form, tiet sing kuen, the concept is deepened even further, and there is not only one way of doing the form, but the standardised forms contains a lot more softness than ng ying kuen(which could be caused by the lenghth of the form itself)


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> So the answer is yes.



How it has been explained to me, is that in hard styles the focus on internal/softness/whatever word you wish to use is always there, but as you become more advanced you are able to see and comprehend it better. This is different than more internal forms, which make the internal/softness/etc. apparent and a primary focus from the beginning, so you first start focusing on that, and as that becomes more second nature you can begin to focus on the external factors of the art. 

What you are saying is correct in a sense, but it is not a simple yes or no answer.

I do not practice a CMA however, and something may have been lost/misunderstood when it was explained to me, so take the above with a grain of salt.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2016)

TietKiu3 said:


> I never said you concentrated on one more than the other. What I meant is that as you get more advanced, the more softness there is.


Yes this is correct for me


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 29, 2016)

Speaking as  "Internal" martial artist (Xingyiquan and Taijiquan) to be honest, I think there is way to much emphasis put on, or concern about,  internal and external. The terminology first appeared in the late 1600s and it had more to do with a political statemetn than a type of training


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## Juany118 (Aug 30, 2016)

I think lines can be even more blurred than "starts at X and ends at Y."  Example Wing Chun (as I am taught at least).  Often you see SLT done relatively quickly (with the possible exception of the 4 set) but the Grand Master of my "school of thought" has actually said it benefits the student to do it very slowly so it takes 15 to 20 minutes to complete.  Also throughout you are supposed to practice Dantian breathing, which is typically seen as something done with internal arts.

Why? because, to him, in order to properly execute what appears to be a "hard" punch one needs to be supple so that almost as soon as your blow makes contact you arm immediately relaxes.. If you do a round kick (rare but sometimes done), if it misses, the kick should end at the apex, you do not follow through as other arts do, and if you are not relaxed this is almost impossible (for me at least). The same goes for some defenses.  If you are relaxed not only does the incoming blow get stopped but your body remains firm.  Tense up and your _tan_ may remain solid but your structure recoils from the impact.

So is Wing Chun and external or internal style?  Is it both?  Is the difference between the two largely semantics?  I am not wise enough to know.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 30, 2016)

Taijiquan is placed firmly in the internal category and yet we have 2 fast sets and one of those is real big on qinna, and there is a lot of qinna in the long (slow) form as well.


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## mograph (Aug 30, 2016)

Personally, I think there are internal and external _techniques and methods_, and that a good art should include both. 

Also, I think that different people respond differently to each, so it's not a given that one should _always_ be taught before the other. But I also get that it would be difficult to teach a medium--to-large class by tailoring the order and pace to each student.


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## greytowhite (Aug 30, 2016)

Mmm... even in "strictly" internal arts there are certain skills that some develop that others don't. A lot of it is the individual but also the style is important. Training external to internal or internal to external may lead to a mix of soft and hard but the skills may not be the same.


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## clfsean (Aug 31, 2016)

Same engine, different transmission & drive train


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## mograph (Aug 31, 2016)

clfsean said:


> Same engine, different transmission & drive train


Now _that's_ worth reflecting upon.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2016)

How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as

- fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
- fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".

If you understand how to use your previous punch to help you to generate more power in your next punch, you are training "internal".

Unfortunately, in fighting, you may not have that luxury to use a slow move to help a fast move. The "internal" concept start to be unrealistic.


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## Juany118 (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as
> 
> - fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
> - fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".
> ...




So WC is internal?  Part of the whole part of relaxing upon the strike, and not being tense, is about making the punch faster.  Speed does = more force when it is properly applied... Mass * velocity and all of that.


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## Xue Sheng (Aug 31, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> How will you throw 5 continuous punches? If you punch as
> 
> - fast, fast, fast, fast, fast, you are training external.
> - fast, slow, fast, slow, fast, you are training "internal".
> ...



Interesting, except Xingyi is internal and does not practice fast slow fast slow...it practices fast...and yet it is still considered internal, and some style of Bagua do the same


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## Juany118 (Aug 31, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting, except Xingyi is internal and does not practice fast slow fast slow...it practices fast...and yet it is still considered internal, and some style of Bagua do the same




That is why earlier I said the lines were so blurry.  I used to them them firmly, until I started studying WC under my Sifu.  I now find myself asking if those terms are simply marketing techniques?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 31, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> So WC is internal?  Part of the whole part of relaxing upon the strike, and not being tense, is about making the punch faster.  Speed does = more force when it is properly applied... Mass * velocity and all of that.


If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about

- power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
- punch, don't like to talk about kick.
- soft, don't like to talk about hard.
- 2 feet balance, don't like to talk about single leg balance.
- ...

This just put too much restrictions on "internal" and keep it away from reality.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about
> 
> - power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
> - punch, don't like to talk about kick.
> ...



I have read enough.  Apparently I am not the only one confused by you fast>slow>fast description however if you look at @Xue Sheng post.  My point was to largely question your definition of internal arts since it seemed kinda limited.  Well perhaps not your personal one but the one you expressed.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about
> 
> - power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
> - punch, don't like to talk about kick.
> ...



If one has sufficient power one needs less speed. Manny Pacquiao could hit Brock Lesnar twenty times and not hurt him but one Mike Tyson punch could knock him out.

I kick only below the waist and mostly from the knee on down. I have yet to knock someone out by kicking them in the leg. And, yes, I know what a groin shot is.

One needs to 'soft' to change. You are too 'hard' headed to understand.

Why do you want to stand on one leg? You have two. Do you sit on the toilet with one cheek?

You are the one who is putting restrictions on their fight game. I have no intent. Anything goes. You say 1 is better than 1, 2 and 1, 2 is better than 1, 2, 3. How can one of your combos be 1? Do the math.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If you have read enough "internal" posts, most "internal" guys like to talk about
> 
> - power generation, don't like to talk about speed generation.
> - punch, don't like to talk about kick.
> ...



My taiji shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh, and has been doing only Taijiquan for close to 60 years or more, talks about power generation and speed in application talks about punches and kicks, however admittedly that are not as many punches as you would find in Wing CHun or Changquan and no where the number of kickes you find in Changquan or white crane. He also talks about hard, especially in one of the fast forms (speed) where there are 2 strikes that are hard and much like a Shaolin form and absolutely talks about and had us train balance on 1 foot, 2 feet and while moving.

Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei also talks about power, speed, punch, kick, soft, hard and balance on one foot.

All 3 are internal guys.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> Why do you want to stand on one leg? You have two. Do you sit on the toilet with one cheek?


If you want to use your leg to attack your opponent, you have to raise your leg off the ground and you will have only one leg left for standing.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 1, 2016)

When I step towards my opponent I lift my front leg and kick his knee or shin or step/stomp his ankle or foot. Like in xingyi dragon. I kick with that first step or crash into his knee or thigh with my knee. I don't have to raise my leg much at all to do this.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> If one has sufficient power one needs less speed. Manny Pacquiao could hit Brock Lesnar twenty times and not hurt him but one Mike Tyson punch could knock him out.



actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook






Pacquiao because of his speed punches DAMN hard at approximately 806 ft pounds.  Tyson did punch harder yes, due to the same physics.  While never formally tested analysis of fight videos showed a peak of 1,178 lbs.  Rock Marciano, as comparison for both, was formally tested at 925 lbs.

Now you might say that "well Mike punches are 46% more powerful!" Yes but lets look at what 806 lbs for force can break...
Throat- 300 lbs of force
Zygomatic-800 lbs
mandible - 800 lbs
maxilla - 500 lbs
Lat. Maxilla - 700 lbs
"nasal bone"- 200 lbs
Cervical vertebra - 500 lbs
area above the ear - 650 lbs

So while Speed is only part of the equation it is an important part, and yes Pacquiao could hurt Lesnar, just not as much as Tyson.  Also as Tyson typically fought at around 220lbs and in the test we see Manny weighing in at 152 lbs. we see the importance of speed to the equation.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> My taiji shifu, student of Tung Ying Chieh, and has been doing only Taijiquan for close to 60 years or more, talks about power generation and speed in application talks about punches and kicks, however admittedly that are not as many punches as you would find in Wing CHun or Changquan and no where the number of kickes you find in Changquan or white crane. He also talks about hard, especially in one of the fast forms (speed) where there are 2 strikes that are hard and much like a Shaolin form and absolutely talks about and had us train balance on 1 foot, 2 feet and while moving.
> 
> Chen Xiaowang and Chen Zhenglei also talks about power, speed, punch, kick, soft, hard and balance on one foot.
> 
> All 3 are internal guys.



Yeah, I think this kinda just brings us back to semantics again.  I really think this idea of "internal vs external" is dogmatic to an extent.  Lets just boil it down to the basics (mechanically) that seem to apply to all internal martial arts.  Typically all internal martial arts use the entire body as a single unit with the muscles coordinated according to their function.  Power is thus generated by the combination of speed and mass being applied by this "single unit." The proponents of internal martial arts will then say that external arts do not use the body as a complete unit but rather as "sectional power."  They say they do not use the body as a whole but rather use the upper body as supported by a firm stance with the lower body.  They will also say they rely more on the cultivation of muscle. 

However their are "external" arts that use the entire body, its simply more subtle.  An example is some arts which will have you turn slightly from the waist as you also bend the knees slightly and sink your hips as you throw the punch to maximize mass behind a punch without compromising speed.  Then add in arts like Wing Chun which rely on unifying your body structure as well in order to maximize the use of the bodies total skeletal structure to support attacks and defense, vs the cultivation of muscle. Imo the above meets the requirements of what many say makes an art "internal", they simply tend to be more "linear" and even then Xingyi can be quite linear can't it?

So in the end what makes an internal vs external art to me.  The dogma.  Most Internal martial arts are based VERY firmly in Taoist belief systems.  The arts we call "external" tend to be based on Confuscian or Buddhist belief systems


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## Flying Crane (Sep 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not a fan of fight science, they overly simplify the variables so the results are questionable at best.

But the bottom line is, Manny can punch hard enough to hurt anyone, including Brock Lesnar or Mike Tyson, if he landed the punch.  The possibility that these men can punch harder, due to their larger physiques, does not negate that fact.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

Flying Crane said:


> I'm not a fan of fight science, they overly simplify the variables so the results are questionable at best.
> 
> But the bottom line is, Manny can punch hard enough to hurt anyone, including Brock Lesnar or Mike Tyson, if he landed the punch.  The possibility that these men can punch harder, due to their larger physiques, does not negate that fact.




Well I look at it as no different than when you buy a car with bhp in mind.  There are other variables, road surface, tires, torque etc BUT it still is a useful metric, it simply can't be used as the only metric.


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## mograph (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> I kick with that first step or crash into his knee or thigh with my knee. I don't have to raise my leg much at all to do this.


Exactly. No need to go high. Also, feint with fists, but kick knee, shin or instep with foot.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 1, 2016)

mograph said:


> Exactly. No need to go high. Also, feint with fists, but kick knee, shin or instep with foot.



I am on one leg when I step or kick. Whenever I move I am on one leg. But I put the foot down before I kid myself that a flying tornado kick is the right move. John likes fancy stuff. I like simple.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> actually not true Why Manny Pacquiao packs world's most powerful punch: science behind boxer's right hook
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ask Manny if he thinks he could hurt Lesnar. There would be no twenty punches. Manny would never get in the ring with him. 46% more powerful is a game changer. Don't you think?


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> Ask Manny if he thinks he could hurt Lesnar. There would be no twenty punches. Manny would never get in the ring with him. 46% more powerful is a game changer. Don't you think?



You're dodging my point.  We were talking about speed as it relates to power, which is a product of speed when used with properly applied mass.  Size differences include factors that go beyond that simple equation however, not simply power but reach, "armor" for body shots etc.  Add in the fact Lesnar is also a wrestler and of course Manny wouldn't want to fight him BUT that isn't the point.  The point is, talking about force/power, speed is a factor and, if forcibly compelled to fight Lesnar, Manny could actually "hurt" Lesnar because he can generate the force required to do so.  Remember being able to hurt =/= winning.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> You're dodging my point.  We were talking about speed as it relates to power, which is a product of speed when used with properly applied mass.  Size differences include factors that go beyond that simple equation however, not simply power but reach, "armor" for body shots etc.  Add in the fact Lesnar is also a wrestler and of course Manny wouldn't want to fight him BUT that isn't the point.  The point is, talking about force/power, speed is a factor and, if forcibly compelled to fight Lesnar, Manny could actually "hurt" Lesnar because he can generate the force required to do so.  Remember being able to hurt =/= winning.



We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours. 

Your definition is an external one.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.
> 
> Your definition is an external one.



Hmmmm really, I think you need to read @Xue Sheng and his posts regarding Xingyi and certain styles of Taijiquan that are internal but also use speed with punching.  I think Xingyi is likely the best example, in attack can be very linear (being based in part on how one would fight with staffs and spears likely has much to do with it) and greatly relies on speed and explosive movements for its punching power achieved via the overall use of movement and body structure.

That unified movement of the body with proper form is an overarching definition of  "internal" arts.  On the other hand, speed, or lack thereof, is not and has never been part of an overarching definition of what makes an internal art.  Cultivation of speed, or lack there of, is however a defining factor in _specific styles, _both internal and external. There is a difference.  So to say that my definition is an external one is simply wrong.

Speed as a factor in Force is a Law of physics.  All the Qi in the world can't change that.  Some arts maximize how the body applies mass, others speed, some balance the two.  This dynamic exists in both external and internal styles.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 1, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up.


If there is a $100 bill on the ground, an external guy can pick it up faster than an "internal" guy can. You will also need speed to bend forward and drop your hand.


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## mograph (Sep 1, 2016)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If there is a $100 bill on the ground, an external guy can pick it up faster than an "internal" guy can. You will also need speed to bend forward and drop your hand.


Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Do you really think that internal guys move like molasses?


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

mograph said:


> Okay, now you're just making stuff up. Do you really think that internal guys move like molasses?


I think people may be getting punch frequency mixed up with punching speed.  There is a difference.  Or maybe some people just think "their" internal art encompasses the rules of all?  I hope not because that is just silly. 

What you showed there is also simply a drill.  In real practice the "set up" is done far faster as well.


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## mograph (Sep 1, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> What you showed there is also simply a drill.  In real practice the "set up" is done far faster as well.


Oh, yes. (I'm studying Xingyiquan, though not from this gentleman.) Strictly speaking, that's a form, not a drill. But since a high percentage of a Xingyi form is repetitive, it might as well be a drill. 

Unlike what some might think, Xingyiquan practitioners wouldn't hang there in space for a moment before striking. Only an idiot would think that a martial artist would fight slowly, or that a teacher would require his students to fight slowly.


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## Juany118 (Sep 1, 2016)

mograph said:


> Oh, yes. (I'm studying Xingyiquan, though not from this gentleman.) Strictly speaking, that's a form, not a drill. But since a high percentage of a Xingyi form is repetitive, it might as well be a drill.
> 
> Unlike what some might think, Xingyiquan practitioners wouldn't hang there in space for a moment before striking. Only an idiot would think that a martial artist would fight slowly, or that a teacher would require his students to fight slowly.



Sorry for my lack of understanding on the fact it is a form.  I simply understood no one in their right mind would actually fight that way lol.

There is a school in my area that teacher it under the name Hsing I.  I love Kali (and to a lesser extent Wing Chun my school teaches both) but there is something about Xing Yi that interests me to no end.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up. When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.
> 
> Your definition is an external one.



Actually we do use speed in internal martial arts, and we take the opponents force too. But talking the 3 "internal" arts, they all have different approaches to application and fighting. I have said for some time that Taiji has nothing but patience, bagua has half the patience of taiji and xingyi has no patience at all.

But I still maintain that the entire Internal vs External thing is a complete waste of time. There are multiple definitions of internal and external that range from the way trained to where it came from (inside or outside of China). It seems to have first appeared in the late 1600s and it was more of a political statement than anything else. And there have been multiple times it usage was pure hubris. And ultimately, if you train the "internal arts" or the "external arts" properly, they both end up in the same place in the end.

Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train


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## clfsean (Sep 2, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train



This ... This is winning of the internet. Discussion is pretty moot from here.


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## mograph (Sep 2, 2016)

Juany118 said:


> Sorry for my lack of understanding on the fact it is a form.  I simply understood no one in their right mind would actually fight that way lol.


No kidding!  For some arts, their forms _look_ like fighting, and for some arts, their forms _don't_ look like fighting. It's incumbent on us as observers and practitioners to look _deeper_, beyond appearances and determine whether the forms adequately prepare the practitioner to fight. Conversely, some forms may _look_ like fighting, but they might just teach fast choreography with nothing behind it.



Xue Sheng said:


> Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train


Indeed.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 2, 2016)

Xue Sheng, according to your blog you may need to follow your own advice.

I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> Xue Sheng, according to your blog you may need to follow your own advice.
> 
> I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.


 
What advice in my blog are you referring too?

I have been doing this (taijiquan) for 25 years (all teachers born, raised and trained in China) and trained I have with multiple Asians. My Taijiquan linage goes to Tung Ying Chieh. And there are 2 fast forms that come from Tung Ying Chieh and he, as well as my sifu, only trained Taijiquan. My lineage is much more complicated in Xingyiquan, but then I don't actually feel I have one in Xingyiquan since I have trained with multiple people and I would not be considered a student of any of them. And my Bagua training is much less and again no teacher I would be affiliated with. I guess the closet in Bagua would be to BP Chan or Frank Allen, Xingyi could be BP Chan, Liang Shouyu, and a few other guys in China whose names I do not know. But then I do not claim a lineage in Bagua or XIngyi.

But all that has nothing to do with the conversation or the statement you made previosuly.....you were not talking about "felt internal". You said



> *We don't use speed in the internal arts except for moving out of the way and getting one's hands up*.



But the fact is we do use speed in internal arts. Internal arts is referring to Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Taijiquan. I would also add Yiquan and Liuhebafa too. Xingyi and Bagua use speed in attack and defense and taiji can and does as well, just not to the extent of Xingyi or Bagau. Now if you want to talk about crossing hands with hard stylists and feeling internal, that is a different topic all together.

Also, based on this



> *When we bridge we take the opponent's force and give it back to him but at his pace not ours.*



If you are "bridging with a "external" stylist, his past will be fast and using speed so once again an internal person needs to use, know and understand speed.

I have crossed hands with a few hard stylist myself and if you do not understand or use speed, or at least redirect at speed with a Wing Chun person you will get pummeled. I also crossed hands with a Sanda person who actually felt rather internal, but, he was to dependent on using muscular force in attack and that was his undoing. But again he was fast and powerful and if I did not use speed (and you can be relaxed and fast) I would have not faired as well.

Edit and Note: The Sanda person was Police/Military Sanda and was born, raised and trained in Heilongjiang


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## mograph (Sep 2, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> I have never crossed hands with someone from an external art that felt internal. Or had any idea how to get there on their own. And I have been doing this for 20 years in Northern California where we have a huge Asian population and many notable teachers.



Would it be right to interpret your statement as meaning that you haven't yet found someone who can _integrate_ internal and external? If so, and apologies to Xue Sheng, this might be the relevant section of his earlier post:


Xue Sheng said:


> And ultimately, if you train the "internal arts" or the "external arts" *properly*, they both end up in the same place in the end.


(My emphasis.)

But of course, even if the art is not taught well enough to merge concepts thought of as "internal" or "external," it might still meet the threshold of being an _effective_ fighting art.


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## Gerry Seymour (Sep 2, 2016)

JowGaWolf said:


> I train Jow Ga Kung Fu and the system has both "hard" and "soft" techniques.  I think the system views it as a balance.  I also train Tai Chi and while most of it is soft there are parts that are hard.  The only difference is the duration in which hard technique is applied versus the duration in which soft technique is applied.  Hard styles will often smash things by default and then use internal methods in flashes.  Soft styles will often use soft techniques by default and will smash things only for a short flash of time and only when needed.
> 
> In Jow Ga most of our hard techniques have a soft version of the same technique.  Some techniques can enter using force and exit using soft techniques.  But with that said, we smash by default.


If I may paraphrase Capt. America: "Jow Ga, smash!"


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## mograph (Sep 2, 2016)

gpseymour said:


> If I may paraphrase Capt. America: "Jow Ga, smash!"


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## 23rdwave (Sep 2, 2016)

Xue Sheng said:


> Basically, and this may be the Xingyi guy in me speaking, but when it comes to training CMA and Internal vs External the best advice I can give is, shut up and train



With all that blogging (talking) where do you find time to train? 

No matter the pace of the fight I aim to control my opponent at first touch, what the Japanese call kuzushi. Then I ride his "energy", if you will. So it is his speed or lack there of that dictates how fast I move. When he touches me he becomes part of me. I don't have to use speed to control him. Or conventional strength.


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## 23rdwave (Sep 2, 2016)

mograph said:


> Would it be right to interpret your statement as meaning that you haven't yet found someone who can _integrate_ internal and external? If so, and apologies to Xue Sheng, this might be the relevant section of his earlier post:
> (My emphasis.)
> 
> But of course, even if the art is not taught well enough to merge concepts thought of as "internal" or "external," it might still meet the threshold of being an _effective_ fighting art.



Everyone I train with started out with hard styles and some still do both but they try to integrate the internal in their external arts until the external recedes into the background. But they all realize the two are mostly incompatible.


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## Xue Sheng (Sep 2, 2016)

23rdwave said:


> With all that blogging (talking) where do you find time to train?
> 
> No matter the pace of the fight I aim to control my opponent at first touch, what the Japanese call kuzushi. Then I ride his "energy", if you will. So it is his speed or lack there of that dictates how fast I move. When he touches me he becomes part of me. I don't have to use speed to control him. Or conventional strength.



Agreed, but you still have to understand and at times use speed, if for nothing else to get out of the way. Slowly getting off the tracks as the train barrels at you is not healthy. From my background in Yang and my exposure to Chen, speed os part of it and must be understood.... your milage may vary. But don't forget Xingyiquan and Baguazhang are both considered internal and the approach is a bit different from Taijiquan

As for time and training, I get up at 5:00AM and have to be at work by 9:00AM and if I am lucky I get an hour in the evening. But currently, due to eye surgery, my workout and training are restricted for at least  2 more weeks. Trying to figure out al I want to do into my schedule when I can get back to it. hmm I feel a blog entry coming on.


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## greytowhite (Sep 5, 2016)

Aye, historically, the terms "internal" and "external" had more to do with arts deriving from within China and those without like Shaolin (if you buy the Da Mo story).


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## David Langford (Sep 14, 2016)

The way I was taught is pretty simple.

External is the stances, the footwork, the body movements, the combat application. Internal is the relaxed body, meditative state of mind, and powerful energy flow. Need both to be successful.  

Hard and Soft...well, hard and soft can be both internal and external. Internal, flowing chi or consolidated chi. External, direct forceful movements or redirecting flowing movements.


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