# Fast punches=hurt elbow??



## wingc (Nov 14, 2011)

Hello,

I would like to know if someone do chain punches on air, can he probably hurt his elbow? 

Thank you in advance


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## Jake104 (Nov 14, 2011)

Only if he hyper extends his elbow while throwing the punches. It's best to keep a slight bend in the elbow and shoulder pinned down. At least that's how I do it. I have never experienced any elbow pain or shoulder pain for that matter. Hope this helps


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 14, 2011)

Hard/fast punches with a loose fist can also lead to elbow strain. You need to make sure your fist is TIGHT by the time you reach full extension.


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## mook jong man (Nov 14, 2011)

wingc said:


> Hello,I would like to know if someone do chain punches on air, can he probably hurt his elbow? Thank you in advance


Make sure you stay relaxed , punch as fast and as hard as you want , you will not hurt yourself .The most you might get is a bit of bicep pain if your not used to punching in the Wing Chun way.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 14, 2011)

Generally, if You Snap Your Arm out too Hard, You can Injure Yourself on an Idiopathic Basis.
But even then, its a matter of How Hard.
Relaxing, and Tensing accordingly are also Factors.

Bottom line is, No. As long as Your Technique is sound, Youll be fine.
Besides the odd Injury, which is Slightly Inevitable in pretty much any MA Training.


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## yak sao (Nov 14, 2011)

Make sure your punch mechanics are good. Where I see people having elbow problems is when they punch with a hinging motion at the elbow rather than a piston action.
Slow and smooth to start, checking all the details, and as you continue to practice in this way, the punch will become faster all on its own.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 14, 2011)

So to sum up....

Yes if done wrong.

No  if done right

:asian:


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## David43515 (Nov 14, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> So to sum up....
> 
> Yes if done wrong.
> 
> ...



That says it all right there. Chain punching is meant for close quarters, so there`s no need to hyperextend the elbow. You`re walking right through the opponent, constantly putting pressure on him and always taking his space. Since you`re at bad breath distances you relax your hand,lead with the forearm to crash through his arms,  and clench up just before impact (which should happen before your arm is fully extended). If you`re doing it right, you can do it all day every day and never get sore. If you`re doing it wrong you can strain your elbow. And if you`re doing it wrong you`re probably overextending or your timing is off. Either way slow down and concentrate on slower smoother movement with proper form. That builds muscle memory so that you can speed up later. 

You could just practice hitting an object if your only concern was avoiding injury, but it still wouldn`t teach your to do it the right way.In other words you wouldn`t have "kung fu" because even though you weren`t getting injured you`d still be doing it wrong.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 14, 2011)

I don't train Wing Chun but I generally do not have anyone with major joint trouble kick air for this reason. Mostly because of the hyperextension issue but striking a pad is actually easier on you than hitting air.


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## mook jong man (Nov 14, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> So to sum up....
> 
> Yes if done wrong.
> 
> ...



You would have to be doing something drastically wrong , like Yak Sao said , such as using a hammering type of action instead of a piston action.

Always drive the elbows forward and punch out to full extension , whether in the air or into a target
Not driving the elbows out to full extension encourages a weak circular type of punching action , driving the elbows out cultivates the development of "elbow force " and the correct linear action.
This is a  type of grinding , driving force driven from the elbow that can smash straight through any hard blocking attempts made by the opponent.

In fact when you get to the level of learning the Biu Jee form the thrusting finger movements in particular are perfomed with great acceleration , with no injury to the practitioners elbows.

Just make sure you keep up diligent practise of the Sil Lum Tao form so that you program proper technique and regular training of the form will also help to strengthen and protect your joints , tendons, etc.

I would have to add that kicks are a different kettle of fish , kicking at high speed in the air will damage you .
The leg has a lot more mass than the arm and the rapid deceleration of the kick will hurt the joint.

If you want to practice kicking at full speed do it on an object , or if nothing is available to take the impact , practice "leg raising".

That is just maintaining the angle in your leg as you raise it from your stance using the hip flexors , you can do this exercise as fast as you want without hurting yourself , and in many ways this training is more beneficial than actually kicking an object , because it teaches you to relax which enables you to kick at even higher speed for even greater impact.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 15, 2011)

mook jong man said:


> You would have to be doing something drastically wrong , like Yak Sao said , such as using a hammering type of action instead of a piston action.



Or repeated, rapid hyperextension which I would categorizeas "drastically wrong"


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> I don't train Wing Chun but I generally do not have anyone with major joint trouble kick air for this reason. Mostly because of the hyperextension issue but striking a pad is actually easier on you than hitting air.


And Walking is easier than Jogging 

Seriously though, Both Methods have Benefits. Hitting Air can Aid in Power Generation, but it needs to be done in Moderation. Hitting Targets Teaches other stuff, like Accuracy.


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## geezer (Nov 15, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> Hard/fast punches with a loose fist can also lead to elbow strain. You need to make sure your fist is TIGHT by the time you reach full extension.



Dirty Dog, I sense that you are not a 'Chunner, and I expect that you mean something different than I do by a "loose fist", but in our WC (NVTO) we always keep a loose fist and relaxed arm and when we do "air punching" we extend the elbow 100%. If you do the technique properly (vertical fist, elbow pointing downward) and _with control_ you will not hurt your elbow or be vulnerable to a joint lock or break by extending fully. If you overdo it with too much tension or poor technique, you may experience joint pain... which is the sighn something is wrong! Also, it is best to alternate air punching with bag hitting, also relaxed, so that the bag will stop your arm before reaching full extention. The reason for the 100% extention is to train "releasing your energy" rather than always "braking" your punch and holding back your energy. Remember, when striking an actual opponent, his body (like the wall bag) will stop your punch for you!


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## wtxs (Nov 15, 2011)

wingc said:


> Hello,
> 
> I would like to know if someone do chain punches on air, can he probably hurt his elbow?
> 
> Thank you in advance



Echoing what others had said, do the punch correctly - or should I have said "use you elbow joint correctly".

The issue is not rather the elbow should have an slight bend or 100% full extension, it has to do with what happened when you "lock out" the elbow joint.  Imagine of flipping open a knife, the blade is stopped by a piece metal in the handle = impact, the harder/faster you you open the knife = more impact, do that long enough, you'll seen some damage of the two contact surfaces.


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> And Walking is easier than Jogging
> 
> Seriously though, Both Methods have Benefits. Hitting Air can Aid in Power Generation, but it needs to be done in Moderation. Hitting Targets Teaches other stuff, like Accuracy.



Despite it being marginally useful, for someone with bad knees (mine are pretty bad and I still do it FWIW) I don't have them kick air at all. Someone who's healthy, sure, but I'm not in the business of aggravating bad joints.


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## mook jong man (Nov 15, 2011)

I have no knowledge of other styles punching methods , but in Wing Chun relaxation of the muscles is a crucial aspect.If the muscles are not relaxed body mass will not be transferred optimally through your arm into the target. In defensive movements this also means that any tension will cause a blockage that will prevent the opponents force from flowing through your body and going down harmlessly into the ground. So to clarify on punching stay relaxed , expand your angle fully , and slightly firm the wrist on contact as you form the fist.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 15, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> Despite it being marginally useful, for someone with bad knees (mine are pretty bad and I still do it FWIW) I don't have them kick air at all. Someone who's healthy, sure, but I'm not in the business of aggravating bad joints.



Fair enough


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## ETinCYQX (Nov 15, 2011)

Cyriacus said:


> Fair enough



If you've never been so "lucky" as to experience it, knee problems SUCK.  I'm pretty sure I've taken my weight in fish oil capsules over the last year or so


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## wingc (Nov 16, 2011)

Thank you very much all for the useful information and for the whole discussion about elbow!!


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## Domino (Nov 16, 2011)

Everythings been said, drive the elbow forward.


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## Cyriacus (Nov 16, 2011)

ETinCYQX said:


> If you've never been so "lucky" as to experience it, knee problems SUCK.  I'm pretty sure I've taken my weight in fish oil capsules over the last year or so


The Worst Ive ever done is a Hyperextention. Two Nights of Ice fixed that nicely.
And then I did it again a Month Later, before Realizing I was too Relaxed during the End Part of the Kick, and needed to Tense up more (The Irony is Fantastic, given how everyone else here is talking about Relaxing )
It wasnt too fun, but I can imagine that a more Intense and Constant and Similar thing wouldnt be Fun


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 16, 2011)

geezer said:


> Dirty Dog, I sense that you are not a 'Chunner, and I expect that you mean something different than I do by a "loose fist", but in our WC (NVTO) we always keep a loose fist and relaxed arm and when we do "air punching" we extend the elbow 100%. If you do the technique properly (vertical fist, elbow pointing downward) and _with control_ you will not hurt your elbow or be vulnerable to a joint lock or break by extending fully. If you overdo it with too much tension or poor technique, you may experience joint pain... which is the sighn something is wrong! Also, it is best to alternate air punching with bag hitting, also relaxed, so that the bag will stop your arm before reaching full extention. The reason for the 100% extention is to train "releasing your energy" rather than always "braking" your punch and holding back your energy. Remember, when striking an actual opponent, his body (like the wall bag) will stop your punch for you!



You would be correct. I've never studied any chinese styles. However, my comments were made based more on my training in physiology and medicine than in any MA. Allow me to expand on what I said, and perhaps clarify a bit.

When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand. During air strikes (so to speak  ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt.... 
I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.


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## mook jong man (Nov 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> You would be correct. I've never studied any chinese styles. However, my comments were made based more on my training in physiology and medicine than in any MA. Allow me to expand on what I said, and perhaps clarify a bit.
> 
> When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand. During air strikes (so to speak  ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt....
> I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.



In Wing Chun striking , the muscles don't need to be tight , only the wrist firmed slightly on impact so it doesn't buckle .
The vertical fist structure is very strong even if the fist is not fully formed because the impact force is absorbed more or less in a straight line from the last three knuckles and down the bones of the forearm.

The Wing Chun exponent must strive to execute strikes with the utmost in relaxation either in the air or into a target , any tension in the strike will cause the impact force to recoil and come back into the strikers upper body disrupting the balance and throwing them back causing power to be lost in the strike.

A properly executed relaxed Wing Chun strike on the other hand will actually push the practitioner down into the floor and momentarily make them heavier as the recoil energy is transferred down the skeletal structure and down into the ground.
This transference of energy down into the stance can only be achieved when the muscles are relaxed.


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## geezer (Nov 16, 2011)

Dirty Dog said:


> When striking, the muscles need to be relaxed. Tense muscles move slowly, inhibit weight transfer and generate little power. However, at the moment of impact, they need to be tight. A loose hand is a broken hand.



D_irty_, first, thanks for the thoughtful response. What you say is true enough in a general sense, but far less true of Wing Chun than the more widely practiced methods of punching such as a boxers jab and cross or the horizontal "corkscrew" fisted punch used in most Japanese and Korean styles. The vertical fist used in WC doesn't have to be rigid at the moment of impact to be stable. Mook's description of "slightly firming' the fist seems spot-on to me. The geometry of the bones in a proper WC strike prevents the wrist from buckling even when a bit relaxed... something I have not found to be true in a horizontal-fisted strike.



Dirty Dog said:


> During air strikes (so to speak  ) that tension is no longer needed. Unless you are fully extending the arm. If you are fully extending the arm, the tension is required to stop the forward movement of the fist prior to hyperextending the elbow. In this case, the fist itself does not necessarily need to be tightened, but other muscles do, just as they are used to stop the forward motion in a strike that does NOT fully extend the elbow. A relaxed arm will extend to (and beyond) the limits of the ligaments. That is going to hurt....
> I suspect we're describing the same thing, but with slightly different terminology.



Actually, you are correct to a point here. If you forcefully drive your punch to full extention, past the range of motion of your elbow, your elbows can suffer from the stress. I have done this on occaision, especially when just starting out, by trying to hard to 
"get power into my punches". Now, many years later, I'm finally learning that _I can get more power by not trying so hard,_ and my elbows are not a problem.


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## Xue Sheng (Nov 21, 2011)

I have to say thank you for this thread. It made at leastone of the bad habits I have picked up since I last trained with my sifu clear.I was letting my elbows get away from my sides a bit too much. 

Thanks for all the posts, it help me get rid of a bad habit


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## geezer (Nov 21, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> I have to say thank you for this thread. It made at leastone of the bad habits I have picked up since I last trained with my sifu clear.I was letting my elbows get away from my sides a bit too much.
> 
> Thanks for all the posts, it help me get rid of a bad habit



Don't feel bad. When I get tired sometimes I stll let my right elbow drift out too far. One conditioning drill we do at the end of class is timed rounds of fast chain punching with steps using focus mitts. As "Sifu" I always lead by participating (It's an old-guy thing... like to out-do the young, super-fit guys with greater efficiency!) But one of my students noticed that when we upped the duration of the rounds, my right elbow position got sloppy at the end. I thought that was a pretty good observation. Who says you can't learn from your students?


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