# EPAK and JKD



## cdhall (Jun 20, 2002)

Someone brought this up somewhere but I can't find it so I'm starting a thread.

I've had this issue come up before.  If I move and can't find an EPAK school what else should I study?  

I was told that Jeet Kune Do would be good because of their lack of a formal curriculum and the compatibility of their concepts to Kenpo concepts. 

What's the word?

P.S. This is my 100th post!


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

JKD as I understand it, is wide open to variation with little standardization..... Kenpo is highly variable also but has been organized much more for the beginner and outlined better for the advanced student.  I find JKD haphazard, yet it does have its great points.

just my view
:asian:


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## Zoran (Jun 20, 2002)

I would have to agree with GD7....again. 

Although, if I could not find a Kenpo school to train at. I would choose a JKD because it would allow me more freedom to do what I do. Plus I'd pick up a thing or two that I could integrate into my personal style.

If you look at it from that point of view, maybe it would be good to join JKD, if there is no Kenpo.

Similar-No
Compatible-Yes


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## cdhall (Jun 20, 2002)

That is kind of what I was thinking Zoran. 
I asked Mr. Parker Jr. about this once at a seminar.
Maybe Mr. C will elaborate a bit on whether they achieve the same end goal relative to how student a "master" of each style would be and what affect if any the development of the curriculum for franchised schools had on the differences between EPAK and JKD.

How about what Mr. Parker taught in 1964 +/- vs what he taught in 1990.


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jun 20, 2002)

actually there is a standard lesson plan for jun fan, which is the base art of jkd.  every one starts off learning the same tools.  The advanced jkd student can indeed take the art to different places, hence the differences seen, but they all ( or at least as it is outlined by dan inosanto) start from the same curriculum.  JKD is the personal expression of man in combat.  Much like kenpo you are taught many things and the art is then tailored to you. In Jkd the principals and rules of motion are the kings of the system.  kenpo is a fantastic base art, it is very easy to adapt to other systems.  rules of motion are universal.  It has been my experience that a lot of the very effective systems are more similar than different.  things are just explained differently.


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## Kempojujutsu (Jun 20, 2002)

I believe Jkd and Epak are from the same bloodlines. Several of Ed's Black Belts went on to train in Jkd. Dan Inosanto, Larry Hartsell, I know there are more. I seen it in a book on JKD it had around 10 of Bruce's best students. About half of them came from EPAK. Bruce and Ed had many talks or meetings with each other. I am sure they didn't talk about the weather.
Bob  :asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 20, 2002)

I've heard a comment that the difference between Wing Chun
and EPAK are that WC was started by a 90 lb female nun, and
EPAK was started by a 200 some lb. male  Hawaiin.  Meaning
to imply that the two styles have a lot of commonalities.  The
same could be said for JKD, since WC was Bruce Lee's first style.
As an inexperienced student, not "in the know" the two when
executed look VERY similar to me.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 20, 2002)

As in many systems..... there are always some similarities however Wing Chun and EPAK are quite different..... from the floor up.  Often times in AK we "use" different drills from WC but as a complete system no comparison.

:asian:


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## satans.barber (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *I've heard a comment that the difference between Wing Chun
> and EPAK are that WC was started by a 90 lb female nun, and
> ...



They do look similar to the untrained eye, but if you have a little knowledge the differences become evident quickly.

To me, Wing Chun seems to lack the flexibility of kenpo. Priciples such as the immovable elbow make the movements very quick but quite rigid (from my perception).  Wing Chun against Wing Chun works OK, but I'm not sure it stands up to more fluid styles, which was basically what Bruce Lee said as well.

In kenpo you're free to move as you like, I think it offers the choice that Wing Chun doesn't.

Not that I'm knocking Wing Chun of course, far from it, some of the blocks from it that aren't taught in Kenpo I use myself, and it's extremely well put together and very impressive. Some of the more philosophical aspect that are impressed on Kung Fu students but are lacking from the kenpo diet are also worth reading about.

I just get the feeling that sparring in a Wing Chun school you'd get 'not like that, have you arm there....no....another inch closer to your sternum' all the time from the sensei, where as we don't get that (at our place anyway). If you're a good fighter, you're a good fighter, if you have your elbow in a different place to everyone else, but it works to your advantage, then so be it. People should learn to exploit their own strengths and defend their own weaknesses, so trying to make people do exactly the same thing is never going to work. There needs to be some leeway there that isn't always evident in more traditional styles.

To be honest, I think I'm a JKD man at heart!

(Above is my 2p, people will disagree...!)

Ian.


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## ikenpo (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> 
> *Someone brought this up somewhere but I can't find it so I'm starting a thread.
> 
> ...



I would say the flow is similar. That's why when Kenpo guys do JKD they are like wow that guy is a quick learner. When in actuality there responses are similar to techniques we do. Good instructors have a base and understand their logic behind the movement like Kenpo, but they don't have as good of a promotion structure (no belts, just whoever can pretty much teach it) so beware of who you train under. In my humble opinion. Also there aren't any basics as we know them. Simply drills from points of reference (most of which I do like).

If I had the chance I would definitely train with a Dan Inosanto, Erik Paulson, Larry Hartsell, James Keating, Kelly Worden, Ron Baliciki or Paul Vunak in a second. But I wouldn't choose them over any one of my favorite Kenpo instructors. 

It also depends where your at in the US. There is some good stuff out there that you might also find you can incorporate into your Kenpo. Some suggestions I would make, if in NY Vee Jujitsu or Sanuces Ryu. Maybe some Hawaiian Jujitsu (great stuff) or Brazillian Jujitsu. Wally Jay's Small Circle would work as well and Modern Arnis would give you freedom and structure. And we haven't even gotten into the Filipino arts....

jb:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by jbkenpo _
> 
> *Simply drills from points of reference (most of which I do like).
> *



Could expand on this?  What do you mean by 'points of 
reference'?


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## ikenpo (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> 
> *
> 
> ...



Like Hubud and other trapping drills...


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## eternalwhitebelt (Jun 20, 2002)

actually they do have basics.  think about it.  you can't have drills without any basics.  most people who talk about jkd have never truely studied it.  jkd is not the base art, jun fan is.  most people don't know this. what you see as jkd is the personal expression of a person's basics.


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## ikenpo (Jun 20, 2002)

> _Originally posted by eternalwhitebelt _
> 
> *actually they do have basics.  think about it.  you can't have drills without any basics.  most people who talk about jkd have never truely studied it.  jkd is not the base art, jun fan is.  most people don't know this. what you see as jkd is the personal expression of a person's basics. *



I'll defer to your expertise because I certainly am not one. My experience with Jun Fan is that most people don't do it. They are on the JKD Concept side (which was my exposure) and I realize this is a raging debate, much like who does real EPAK or 24 vs 16 tech systems or MK vs Adv Kenpo concepts. 

Even with the Chris Kent stuff I have on video I never saw any basics per se unless were talking about pad drills and P.O.R. (point of reference) drills. If so then yes they have basics.

jb:asian:


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## Rob_Broad (Jun 24, 2002)

While the 2 styles compliment each other I find there to be worlds of difference between them.


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 28, 2002)

Jkd does have some areas of interest and good  ideas that compliments AK but I still prefer the completeness of AK.

:asian:


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## Kirk (Jun 28, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Jkd does have some areas of interest and good  ideas that compliments AK but I still prefer the completeness of AK.
> 
> :asian: *



I think we all do ... otherwise we'd be JKDers   ... I'll do any drill
that will help develop my kenpo skills.


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## brianhunter (Jun 29, 2002)

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> 
> *Jkd does have some areas of interest and good  ideas that compliments AK but I still prefer the completeness of AK.
> 
> :asian: *



I agree....I was at the book store the other day and looked at some "JKD" books and in my non expert opinion I did not see anything in there that you could get from EPAK.....To me it would almost seem like if you started JKD you would end up in EPAK due to its actual completeness as a system and not really being a study theory which i view JKD as


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## ProfessorKenpo (Jun 29, 2002)

Good for you Brian, you just won the cupie doll.     If you've already figured these things out already with your limited time, you'll definitely be one of the better Kenpoists if you stay with it.    I've been told from an original student of Bruce (Bob Bremer, original nucleus) when he was watching me teach that I was doing JKD.    I told him it was Kenpo, plain and simple, if it looked like JKD,  that was fine too.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Goldendragon7 (Jun 29, 2002)

Oh my  gawd!!!!!!!


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## Doc (Jul 1, 2002)

The Kenpo-Karate & JKD Connection



Ed Parkers creation, Kenpo-Karate, has a brother and a sister art. The sister is Jeet Kune Do (JKD). Well save the brother for another day. Kenpo-Karate and JKD are both training concepts, as opposed to styles, or even real systems of the martial arts. Although the Bruce Lee vehicle unlike the Ed Parker version was never designed to be commercial, Ed Parker had a considerable influenced in its creation and concept.

Bruce Lee spoke extensively with him about his (Bruces) own personal goals and dissatisfaction with his Wing Chun training (even though he hadnt really trained that long). He expressed a desire to learn as much as he could without the restraints imposed by any one discipline. Bruce became bored easily when he could not readily see benefit to what he was doing. Ed Parker argued this was pretty ambitious, but typical for a 23 year old. (I think we tend to forget Bruce was just a really talented kid.) Parker further expressed there must be variables to allow for the physical, emotional, and intellectual differences in students.  

For Bruce this was of little concern. He didnt really care about students or teaching. Bruce Lee was on a personal mission to enhance his own skills and his salability to become a movie star. His teaching was primarily to insure he had training partners and of course, to learn from other accomplished martial artists to get to his personal goals. When Lee moved to Southern California his school was not open or known to the general public. The local insiders knew where it was, but to get in you had to bring something special to the table. It was located about five minutes away from Grandmaster Ark Wongs School in the Los Angeles Chinatown. 

Ed Parker now realizing Lee was only interested in his own self-development, gave him some history making advice. Acknowledging Bruces obvious physical gifts, he suggested he should explore as much as possible from diverse teachers. Although Lee had already been doing this to a certain extent, Parker felt he should be introduced to the top guys, and of course Ed Parker knew them all. Bringing him together with notable martial artists like Judo Gene LaBell, Dan Inosanto and Sea Oh Choi to name a few, Ed Parker helped Bruce immensely with his martial arts. He advised Lee to study a variety of arts and take what he felt he could use. LaBell taught Bruce to grapple and became his stuntman in the Green Hornet TV show, while Choi was partially responsible for the awesome Korean style kicks Lee displayed on film. And of course, Dan Inosanto for teaching Bruce the many diverse weapons and for his Kenpo and Filipino Arts influence on Lee. Thus the seed to ultimately what became JKD was planted, but like motion based Kenpo-Karate, more a training concept than a style, and only a system within the confines of its own concept. His introduction by Ed Parker as well as to William Self the director of the popular Batman T.V. series, who was casting for the Green Hornet, ultimately got him into television and jump-started his movie career.  

Ed Parkers approach for his Kenpo-Karate vehicle was somewhat different, but not as different as you might think. He felt instructors needed to be well rounded to be of the greatest benefit to all of their students. As a teacher, your personal strengths and weaknesses should not be visited on your students. You never know at what a student may excel, even though you as a teacher may not. Kenpo-Karate is designed to be of maximum benefit to the singular individual, and only personal effectiveness is the primary goal. It was simple and ingenious on the part of both these men. 

Students and followers of both however, misunderstood. Kenpo-Karate practitioners continue to argue about the right way to execute a technique when there is none. They engage in Hypothetical Kenpo and intellectualize with no real foundation or basics, while conjuring up complicated what if scenarios. So-called JKD people argued about how to do JKD as well, while most of its original students dont really teach it. What has emerged is JKD Concepts which is probably more appropriate considering its conceptual nature. Further JKD is closer to a street style of sparring and generally gives no solutions to self-defense grappling scenarios, much like Kenpo-Karate. Also unlike Kenpo-Karate, it doesnt deal with modern street weapons, or surprise attacks. 

That is not to say Bruce did not possess the knowledge or the ability to deal with these scenarios. To the contrary, much like Ed Parker, Bruce kept a lot to himself. Instead he chose to explore mostly the street sparring aspect with the majority of his student sparring partners. Most were not even aware Bruce could grapple, or had joint manipulation skills until he displayed them on film much later.

The most obvious JKD Kenpo-Karate connection can be seen in Kenpo-Karates Freestyle Formulas. These were derived from certain Offensive Techniques planned but never written for Ed Parkers American Kenpo. Once again watered down and presented as formulas, they were to educate and prod the Kenpo-Karate student into flexible thought when it came to sparring and competition. By using the Kenpo-Karate concepts of Re-arrangement, Prefixing, Inserting, Addition, and Deletion, in conjunction with an established base formula and footwork, these Freestyle Formulas followed the same conceptual design as the rest of His Kenpo-Karate. 

Unfortunately however, most found this formulaic approach too complicated, and over the years, chose to ignore or abandon them altogether. Drafts of the last version of some the technique manuals Ed Parker was working on eliminated these formulas. Ed Parker created Kenpo-Karate to be conceptually and commercially viable out of necessity. He had to design it to be taught to the masses with maximum flexibility of thought and action. The hard curriculum he wanted to teach was not possible. Even though ultimately, it is only a small part of the whole of his American Kenpo Knowledge, Kenpo-Karate did have its own unique structure, and like JKD, only one real expert. 

First, Ed Parker created a guide he called the Web of Knowledge. This was a spiraling ascending chart consisting of the theme of the individual assaults in a progressive attack variable pattern. It was designed to insure students considered specific situations in their training process, and virtually dictated self-defense techniques and there order of presentation, and formed the basis for Kenpo-Karates lesson plan. Student/teachers focused on techniques when the Web of Knowledge is the truth base.  Although Parker insisted on individual flexibility on defense, he felt it was important to consider as many scenarios of attack as reasonably possible. Over time as the sociological climate changed, some of these scenarios have become outdated, while other new scenarios need to be considered.

Revolutionary at the time, written technique manuals were created as a companion second part of the lesson plan. These were to give students a generalized starting point of ideas from which to extrapolate their defensive strategies dictated by the Web of Knowledge, based on concepts taught by Mr. Parker. No mention should be made of the earlier writings without acknowledging Tom Kelley and Richard Planas. These gentlemen contributed tremendously, and understand the philosophy of the material better than most for obvious reasons. They followed in the footsteps of Chuck Sullivan who was essentially there from the beginning, supporting as well as creating with Ed Parker.  

Coming in personal contact with the majority of his students infrequently, the need of a different approach is what brought about Kenpo-Karate. So Ed Parker began teaching, not so much a system but this Kenpo-Karate Lesson Plan he intended students to use as a general guide. The Web of Knowledge in conjunction with emerging concepts was supposed to be the center, with the technique manuals to provide ideas for a starting point for personal interpretations. Remember the primary objective was for the individual to defend himself with the information provided as quickly as possible. 

Bur the problems here were many. For one Ed Parker was constantly evolving and growing. New ideas replaced old ones rapidly, usually too fast for his students. That leads us to the next problem. All of Kenpo-Karates instructors were also its students themselves. Most were converts from other arts who were attempting to learn Ed Parkers ever-changing approach, and teach it at the same time. This in conjunction with the inherent flexibility of Kenpo-Karate, created mass confusion from school to school, instructor to instructor. What Ed Parker told one group in the morning, might be completely different from an afternoon session with a different audience. This was made possible because the majority of the black belts were converts from other styles, bringing with them established skills and competency. Given the new flexible concepts, these black belts and the next generation or so florished.

Ed Parker knew the true sciences and more complex aspects of the whole of his American Kenpo, like traditional Chinese Arts, required very strictly taught basics and specific body mechanics to provide a solid long-term foundation. Additionally, even more specific continuing education under competent instruction would be absolutely necessary to move to true advanced levels. Like JKD, limited competent instructors hampered this. Like Bruce Lee, only Ed Parker was the expert of his art. He also knew it would be impossible to teach his American Kenpo as he envisioned it in the recesses of his mind.

Kenpo-Karate is essentially a motion-based approach designed as stated, to foster reasonable self-defense skills, in a relatively short period of time. To this end, Kenpo-Karate routinely attacks soft human tissue such as the throat, testicles, and eyes to insure effectiveness. It teaches the student to overwhelm an opponent with multiple rapid fire flailing strikes and kicks. Conceptually simple, but it can be extremely effective in striking situations against the unskilled. It is very ineffective however in hands on or grappling circumstances because of the absence of other knowledge. This is the reason many practitioners have decided to augment their skills with grappling disciplines. Most instructors in Kenpo-Karate teach students to turn grabbing attacks into attempted grab attacks. Once grabbed, hugged, choked etc. they are hard pressed to teach students how to extricate themselves. In essence Kenpo-Karate is a more sophisticated approach to many self-defense courses successfully taught in schools and colleges throughout the country. This is pure marketing genius on the part of Ed Parker.

As a limited layperson striking art however, this is where the genius of the man really showed. Because this creation is based on an Alphabetical and Numerical Re-arrangement Concept, its variations are literally infinite. Therefore a student may study this Kenpo-Karate facet of American Kenpo on a superficial level, or if he/she chooses, explore its interpretations of motion endlessly into old age. This version is known for its journey approach, and is the method Parker chose to proliferate. It is extremely flexible and promotes personal development and style over and above structure. Kenpo-Karate is about 10% structure, and 90% personal interpretation. Other aspects of Ed Parkers American Kenpo is actually the reverse, and more like the traditional Chinese disciplines, with 90% very rigid structure, and 10% of tailored flexibility

The reason is simple. Kenpo-Karate is completely dominated by what Ed Parker called the Re-arrangement and Tailoring Concepts of Motion. This is its strength and its weakness. Remember Ed Parker said, Tailored by self means limited by self. He also adopted a saying from science. General knowledge always produces general results. Although Kenpo-Karate may be studied infinitely, and produce very positive results, there is specific knowledge not found within its structure. No matter how long you re-arrange and explore its motions and structure, this knowledge cannot be found. Consider this reality. There is no physical or mental discipline in existence, where you may extrapolate the higher echelons by re-arranging it, or tailoring it to your own personal preferences. 

Your base of knowledge must be very specific and well defined before you attempt to build on it and move upward. You cannot do this with generalities. You cannot build a skyscrapers first floor to your own whims. The foundation has to be rock solid and the physics of building construction will dictate its architecture in a manner you may not personally like. Kenpo-Karates popularity in part, comes from the lack of strict structure found in other arts, as well as its relatively rapid progress through its ranks. But the trade off is a hard foundation that is needed to sustain and create the base for more advanced development and internal energy. This is the reason why there are so many young masters of Kenpo-Karate. All that is really required is you master your own circumstances with regard to its structure.

As an entity it has no real scientific principles and is virtually conceptually driven. At its best it is a pseudo-science, and according to Ed Parker himself, created by a process called Comparative Analysis. The so-called principles are actually simple rules whose validity is constrained by its conceptual context. The rules may be absolute, but only as they pertain to the individual using it at the time. That is, Your rule may not be mine if it doesnt work for me, no matter how well it works for you. Students are encouraged to find another way to make it work, over and above continuing to work on the move to perfection. 

Loyal practitioners truly want to believe its hard science, but it isnt. It does however borrow ideas from science. But even then, very little is actually transportable. What some may call principles, outside of the context of Kenpo-Karate would have no meaning. The thought you could train in something for a few years, performing a group of techniques tailored to your personal preferences, and then take your experience and work your way to mastership is totally illogical. You may get to higher levels, but only within the constraints of the limited concept. There are masters of Kenpo-Karate, but that doesnt mean they are masters of other aspects or higher levels of Ed Parkers American Kenpo.

Intelligent teachers and practitioners have realized something is missing from Kenpo-Karate. Many like Bob White years ago, borrowed the sport concept of cross training. Some are flocking in large numbers to grappling and manipulation disciplines. Others are quietly talking about the techniques they wouldnt use or the ones that dont work. Others still, are really struggling to make sense of what they have been told and taught by teachers with a limited effective understanding of the curriculum. 

Although the idea of seeking knowledge from any source is commendable, some have even sought acupuncture charts in an attempt to reverse engineer techniques, and gain knowledge of nerve locations in combat scenarios. They are unaware of how much knowledge is missing and cannot be found in that methodology. Kenpo-Karate doesnt provide the structure for such a process. Also acupuncture charts are much like Ed Parkers technique Manuals. They are a guide, and are not gospel. Especially when used in an active martial environment.

Others simply point the finger at the obvious deficiencies and abandon Kenpo-Karate altogether. This is much easier than looking inward and seeing the same deficient circumstances in oneself or ones teacher. Youll find ex-Kenpo students in abundance in Russian, Filipino, and other eclectic arts. Some dont mind being a beginner somewhere else as long as they keep their ranks in Kenpo. I have always found it curious that many speak as if what they know is all Ed Parker knew. They routinely suggest they pretty much know the material, and now are on the Bruce Lee journey sampling other arts. They do not seem to leave room for the possibility that Ed Parker like Bruce Lee was ahead of his students, and might have known things he didnt teach them. 

One of the things that kept Mr. Parker held in such high esteem was what students felt of his physical skill. No one seemed capable of physically duplicating what he did. Not understanding many thought the answer was simply to hit harder. As an example, many elements from the Chinese Sciences like the pak-sao, or slapping checks are evident in all of even his early movements recorded on film and tape. Yet, he never taught or wrote about them. Some have attempted to mimic him; not realizing slapping yourself in the wrong place at the wrong time can have devastating consequences in real combat. Other have simply followed the technique manuals and used Ed Parkers written substitute, positional check. 

He also made extensive use of nerve strikes and pressure points in all he did, but never talked about these things either after including nerve charts in his first book on Kenpo in 1961. He often told a story he called The Menu of Death that illustrated he had a knowledge of these things. Interestingly students laughed at the punch line but no one ever asked him the implications of the story. Still others attempted to duplicate Ed Parkers awesome abilities by concentrating on speed, hitting students extremely hard to get the desired effect. Although effective, it is Neanderthal in comparison.

Students of American Kenpo have to ask themselves if Ed Parkers Infinite Insights books truly represents the sum of his knowledge as some have claimed. Ed Parker himself stated in the second volume of that series, that the material therein was from the early seventies, and it took him to the eighties to organize it. I have video of Ed Parker doing all of the techniques from the late sixties and early seventies, and they are essentially unchanged from what most are doing in a new millennium, over forty years later. Curious since that is not what Ed Parker was doing, or how he moved at the time he passed in 1990. Traditional Kenpo which many claim to perpetuate, by Mr. Parkers own standards is an oxymoron. There is no such thing, just those who have stopped learning and educating themselves.


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## cdhall (Jul 1, 2002)

Have I said that before?
 
Dr. Chapel, that was outstanding.  I want to thank you for supporting my question with such a thoughtful and informative answer.

I have some questions about what you said, but I'll email you.  That was a very thorough treatment of my topic and I am greatful that you took the time to post it.  

This is an excellent forum.  I don't know how, for example that I would otherwise have been able to or even thought to go out to California and ask you this personally. The fact is, I may never have asked you even if we'd met.  Three cheers for the web!

Thank you, sir.
:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Jul 1, 2002)

CD, 

As you know, the space where my school is now is shared by a JKD instructor, Ray Parra.  Ray has been a student of Danny Inosanto for over 30 years and he was a black belt prior to that.  

I cannot provide the perspective Dr. Chapel can, nor do I want to bring it over into the SL-4 or "pressure point" or "acupuncture point" discussion.  What my personal observation is, that as Dr. Chapel said, it may be a "sister art."  

When potential students ask me the difference between the two systems, I encourage them to take one of my classes for free and that Ray will do the same.  Then they can decide for themselves.  It appears that in Kenpo we study an enormous amount of "material", with the end result being a gaseous spontaineous variable response to an attack.  (I am cutting to the core here and leaving oodles and oodles out)  The JKD as practiced by Ray and Dan teaches a flow first, from that, individual response patterns, or techniques can be pulled out.  With Kenpo and JKD practitioner ending in a similar place you get to by a different journey.  

This is very simplistic comparison of course, and generous on my behalf, but usually sufficient for a beginning student trying to find a home.  I enjoy the logic of Silat, the flow of Escrima, the aggressiveness of Boxing or Thai Kickboxing ... even if it is not for me.  My classes are classes ... Ray's are individual workouts by pairs of training partners.  Little history, tradition, or values are shared with his beginning students.  Whereas in Kenpo the responsibility for what you are learning is stressed from the beginning.  JKD is increadable aerobic workout for the entire class time and his guys & gals are tough and can fight.  But they do not have the tools to articulate what they are doing consistantly.  Ray does, but he would have to be asked.

Interesting workout.  If you really want to know the difference come to one of Ray's classes.  6:30 for beginners and 7:30 for advanced on Monday or Wednesday evenings.

-Michael
UKS-Texas


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## cdhall (Jul 1, 2002)

Thank you sir.  I'll probably email you.  JKD, EPAK and BJJ. I don't think you are missing anything.  
:asian:


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## TIGER DRAGON FIGHT (Jul 2, 2004)

the two styles are similar by there quickness of hands and practicallity of leg strikes but differant by there classical upbringing.:jedi1:


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 2, 2004)

With the current availablity of Distance Learning you can sign up with at least three Kenpo Teachers that teach Ed Parker Kenpo Karate.

Al Tracy
Larry Tatum
Kevin Lamkin

You buy the videos and train do a tape send it in and get corrected on any problems and then you maybe able to obtain recongized Rank. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Rainman (Jul 3, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> With the current availablity of Distance Learning you can sign up with at least three Kenpo Teachers that teach Ed Parker Kenpo Karate.
> 
> Al Tracy
> Larry Tatum
> ...



None of these people teach Ed Parkers Kenpo, Ed Parker taught Ed Parkers Kenpo and during the 80's the term American Kenpo was coined and put into the infinite insights to differentiate his system from the others.   After EP passed it was not his system but everyones because he is not here to set any type of standard.  

Distance learning is fictional- you cannot learn any art by video correspondance and receive the rank of black belt- this is just flat out wrong.


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## Brother John (Jul 3, 2004)

eternalwhitebelt said:
			
		

> actually they do have basics.  think about it.  you can't have drills without any basics.  most people who talk about jkd have never truely studied it.  jkd is not the base art, jun fan is.  most people don't know this. what you see as jkd is the personal expression of a person's basics.


From my understanding, Jun Fan is not an integral part of Jeet Kune Do. True, I've not studied in a school that's taught either one...so there's your grain of salt. But Jun Fan Gung-fu is the assimilated basics that Mr. Lee favored from the arts he studied... whereas JKD is the philosophical approach to studying/being a martial artist. Jun Fan Gung-fu varies widely from school to school to the point it can't even be said to be an art (overall, though w/in each school it's an art unto its' self...so to speak). But JKD can be a way embraced by any martial artist.

Your Brother
John


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## Brother John (Jul 3, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> The &#8220;Kenpo-Karate&#8221; & JKD Connection
> He often told a story he called &#8220;The Menu of Death&#8221; that illustrated he had a knowledge of these things. Interestingly students laughed at the punch line but no one ever asked him the implications of the story.




PLEASE tell us this "The Menu of Death" story.
Please.

 :asian: 

Your Brother
John


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## Blacktiger (Jul 3, 2004)

I'm new here and thought I would put in my two cents. I am fairly new to Jun Fan but I do actually study it. We work very hard on the basics of striking and movement and my instructor is very critical on  my strikes proper alignment and if my footwork is done properly. The actual concepts of JKD to my understanding is actual combat is alive and always changing, I think Lee wanted us to concentrate on the tools of combat (the basics) more than set patterns. My point is, you train a technique against a straight punch over and over again till its second nature and then you try it on a street brawler who maybe isn't a trained fighter and that punch he throws comes in at an off angle, will it still work? Jun Fan trains the tools and the footwork but not the setness so that you can always adapt and change to the aliveness of combat. JKD has some of the best drill I have ever seen and they see that as more productive training than learning set form. as far as  a complete art most JKD schools also incorporate Kali and bjj into the curiculum, which would cover all ranges of combat (kicking,punching,trapping,grappling,& weapons trainging). sorry for misspellings and my lengthy rambling.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 3, 2004)

Rainman said:
			
		

> None of these people teach Ed Parkers Kenpo, Ed Parker taught Ed Parkers Kenpo and during the 80's the term American Kenpo was coined and put into the infinite insights to differentiate his system from the others. After EP passed it was not his system but everyones because he is not here to set any type of standard.
> 
> Distance learning is fictional- you cannot learn any art by video correspondance and receive the rank of black belt- this is just flat out wrong.


Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors. 

Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art. Then you have the right to wear the Blackbelt issued from these Instructors and you are just as welcomed as any student that came to the studio in person. Distance Training and Online Video Streaming for lessons is a reality we as Kenpoist much face. We have to evolve with the trends and technology that is available for teaching Kenpo to others. I would bet any money SGM Parker would right now be offering Kenpo Videos and or Live Data Stream on his website for others if he was still with us today. It is Possible with new Technology to have live Video Conferencing with a Student and Instructor Online with a good Computer and a Video Camera and a ISP. This will be the new wave of Teaching One to One over a great distance. 

We must reach out to the computer savy generation that is coming behind us and keep up with them in order to spread the Art of Kenpo. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Rainman (Jul 3, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors.
> 
> Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art. Then you have the right to wear the Blackbelt issued from these Instructors and you are just as welcomed as any student that came to the studio in person. Distance Training and Online Video Streaming for lessons is a reality we as Kenpoist much face. We have to evolve with the trends and technology that is available for teaching Kenpo to others. I would bet any money SGM Parker would right now be offering Kenpo Videos and or Live Data Stream on his website for others if he was still with us today. It is Possible with new Technology to have live Video Conferencing with a Student and Instructor Online with a good Computer and a Video Camera and a ISP. This will be the new wave of Teaching One to One over a great distance.
> 
> ...



I will agree it is not useless but will stand firm on the fact it cannot replace daily instruction on the mat...  Any information is good but blackbelt to me is a serious achievement.   It is just not a valid substitute (enhancement too yes) but not in place of personal instruction and interaction on the mat- nothing is.   To see and hear does not replace to feel.   The nuances are lost and those are such an important factor of AK and any art with hugs, holds, locks and chokes.

 :asian:


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## Brother John (Jul 3, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> Well I will have to disagree with you on several points lol. First these Gentlemen are First Generation Blackbelts under SGM Parker and if anyone should know and teach EPAK would be these Instructors.
> 
> Additionally if Distance Learning is wrong then why do it in the first place since this would be aganist the Philosophy of Kenpo to be true to the art.



Hey Mark, my fellow Kansan Kenpoist.

I must disagree with you here, but I'll explain why.
#1: the fact that these people studied with SGM Parker doesn't mean that they DO Ed Parker Kenpo. First generation or not. For instance, the curriculum espoused by Mr. Tracy is not Parker Kenpo. It is different. The curriculum that Chuck Sullivan and Vic (can't recall his last name)... is Not Ed Parker Kenpo. It is very different. Kenpo? Yes. EPAK? No. 
To my understanding though, Mr. Tattum does teach EPAK. Perhaps he and Mr. Parker had a falling out...so I've heard, and he did break away from the IKKA and found the LTKKA...but the curriculum is that which was taught to him by Mr. Parker (to my limited knowledge). 

#2: The fact that some promote video teaching and video promotion does NOT mean that it is right to do. It is, however, fiscally enticing. They are raking in tha bread hand over fist!!!!! I met a guy who got the videos, sent in the checks, sent in the videos and went from white TO BLACK BELT in only 4 MONTHS!!! I wish I was exagerating. I've met others who went through the same program (created by an EPAK 1st gen) who pretty much had the same experience....and came out with exeedingly low quality of abilities. The fact that they do it attests more to their drive for $$$$$$$$ than to any thing having to do with quality. 
Now: can someone learn something from videos? 
I think so. But if the majority of your experience is as a video student...the quality CAN'T be there. I doubt it Very strongly. Now if you take a student who's brown or above in a similar art and let them try to learn from the videos... they'll undoubtedly have a better experience. But learning a martial art by video and testing by video would be about as useful as taking dance lessons over the phone. 

Hope I've not stepped on too many toes.
Your Brother
John


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 3, 2004)

Okay Gentlemen:

I will concede that point. However there are some more circumstances that make Distance Learning a viable way to learn MA( your entitled to an opinion just as I do). 

Lets say your in a rual area where there are no Kenpo Schools however you have the Internet and you come across a website that has samples of Kenpo online. You see those video Samples and you go wow! I got to learn that. 

The Problem is in some cities as some of you know that are in the Midwest ( especially those who live in Kansas should know LOL!) that you may never see a martial arts class. You may see TKD lets say in about a half hour drive or an hour drive from your home. Throw in work and family issues and you can see that this could be a benefit too those that wish or yearn to learn a Martial Art. I agree having an Instructor present is required to learn the finer points. 

The only requirement I can see is this if Distance Learning is not viable then those schools whom report many Blackbelts should make an effort to place a Blackbelt in a Location where there has been numerous inquires about that Art. 

There are and is many "Kenpo" Schools that have tapes available for a low price for under $100 for the wholes system of Kenpo while some have the whole Kenpo system nearly $2000 lol. 

The only thing that matters is learning a Martial Art with your whole heart. You can even make it a requirement to come to the Studio for a week every quarter to learn. That is every 3 months just FYI lol. 

I for one was introduced to Kenpo thur the IKCA and have been learning ever since that day soaking up as much Kenpo info as possible. I even have a workout area in my home to learn new material so I can pass it along to the students. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser 

P.S.
I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?


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## Blindside (Jul 3, 2004)

> I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?



I have, actually I have met a number of them, though several were students UNDER an instructor who was distance trained.  I met most of these guys in a tournament setting, so I got to see forms, self-defense, and some sparring.  There was a number of them, about 4-5 first degrees that were competing.  It is fair to say they got chewed up and spit out, I don't think any of them placed, they also didn't return the next year.  But that was one school, so maybe the instructor was bad.  (Yes it was a tournament, no it wasn't "the street" but since they are supposed to be distance trained you would think their forms and SD would look good.)

I have seen others, and it has been a pretty mixed bag, but on the whole my impression was poor, and is hardly a glowing review of distance training.  Martial arts and martial sports require contact, remember "to feel to to believe," and I am skeptical about the ability of distance learning to convey that.

Lamont


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## Gentle Fist (Jul 3, 2004)

Nothing can replace a teacher in the flesh.  I realize some people aren't as fortunate to have a school nearby, but getting a Shodan over the internet is just wrong.  One should have to at least test for rank.


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## Rainman (Jul 3, 2004)

> I was wondering if anyone has meet a Distance Trained Blackbelt in Kenpo and how did they fare?



Yes an IKCA black belt.  Very easy to dominate.  No understanding of concepts and principles.   The movement on his part was decent enough but the application was nonexistant.


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 3, 2004)

That is exactly why I am planning road trips every three months to visit my Instructor for a week at a time. He the Instructor has already agreed to this.

I have the DVD's and Tapes however to be face to face with an Instructor is paramount. I agree with you guys I am not saying all Distance Learning is bad. However I agree you should test in person at least. Plan your vacation around the test go for a week or two weeks for a "crash" course if I may use that term. 

I for one am looking forward to the Lessons lol. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Brother John (Jul 4, 2004)

Mark Weiser said:
			
		

> That is exactly why I am planning road trips every three months to visit my Instructor for a week at a time. He the Instructor has already agreed to this.
> 
> I have the DVD's and Tapes however to be face to face with an Instructor is paramount. I agree with you guys I am not saying all Distance Learning is bad. However I agree you should test in person at least. Plan your vacation around the test go for a week or two weeks for a "crash" course if I may use that term.
> 
> ...



Hey Mark-
thanks for taking my criticisms in stride. 
I'm glad you are able to get to your instructor's to study some! I know exactly where you are coming from. My instructor is an eight hour drive from my home. (He's in Denver, I'm in Wichita..    :idunno:  ) We do what we can. My first instructor was here in Wichita, got me up through Brown. Now I've been with my new instructor for about 2 years now. Slow going, but WELL worth it. I've got my students and they keep me rollin, but I live for those times I can spend a few days with my teacher! Nothin beats it. 

Hey, I know we do different 'blends' of Kenpo. Mine comes from the Paul Mills (AKKI) lineage... yours through Chuck Sullivan's... but if you ever need a workout partner to help prepare for a test or whatnot; drop me an e-mail.
BrotherJohn@AKKI.com
I'd love to hang out with a fellow Kenpoist in Oz.

Your Brother
John


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## Mark Weiser (Jul 4, 2004)

Hey I appreciate the Offer. Where are you located at that is your School. My Wife and I used to live in Wichita for about 3 years. I was a Reserve Deputy Sheriff there with Sedgwick County. 

My Introduction to Kenpo was with IKCA but I am venturing out and looking for more Kenpo Instruction. That is why I am studying with James Ibaro and Trevor Haines currently. 

When my family and I go down to visit her family I could drop in and train a little with ya that would be cool. 

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser


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## Doc (Dec 29, 2004)

Brother John said:
			
		

> PLEASE tell us this "The Menu of Death" story.
> Please.
> 
> :asian:
> ...


This is a true story by the way. Back in the sixties Ed Parker Sr. was in the Pasadena school when a couple of "street kids" came in. They were around 18/19 years old, big, street wise, black guys who essentially came in to "challenge" the Old Man. Although they were polite, it was clear they were sizing Parker up. After a bit of conversation, they looked at each other and clearly had made a silent decision between them as if it had been discussed beforehand. 

One of them said, "You know we think we can take you." 

Parker said, "Who is we?" 

They said, "You know, us. We think we can take you." 

Parker said, "OK, one at a time or both at the same time?" as he moved himself strategically in the office.

The two guys looked at each other and said, "It doesn't matter. Either way." 

Parker said, "Well OK, but I need to ask you a couple of questions first." 

They said, "What?"

Parker smiled and said, "How do you want to die?" 

One of them looked at Parker curiously and said, "What do you mean?" 

Parker reinterated, "How do you want to die? Today, tomorrow, or next week?" 

The two guys looked at each other, and one asked, "You mean we got a choice?" 

Parker said smiling, "You always have a choice son." 

After a brief moment of thought and consultation with each other, they replied, "We changed our mind." and they left quickly without turning their back until they were outside.

Parker had told me he had told that story many times over the years, and I heard it so many times I could recite it myself like many of his anecdotes. But he often lamented that no one ever asked him the implication of what he meant. They just laughed. all of them. No I never asked him what he meant, because I knew.

To Brother John I don't know how long that question had been looming on this thread, but I just ran across it. If it's been awhile I apologize. I don't always get notified because I work off so any different computers.


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## Gin-Gin (Dec 30, 2004)

Doc said:
			
		

> This is a true story by the way.


Thank you for sharing it with us, Sir.  I appreciate the way you and the other Black Belts tell Mr. Parker's stories/anecdotes.  I never got to meet the man, but all of you (his Black Belts), his books, my instructor Mr. Billings, and the Art itself are the closest I'm going to get to him.  By hearing from those who knew him, his memory is still alive (IMHO). I'm glad you're here on MT.  I'm still learning new things, even when I'm not in class.  How cool is that? :ultracool 

Respectfully,
Gin-Gin :asian:


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## BallistikMike (Jan 3, 2005)

My experience.

I have fours years of hands on training in White Tiger Kenpo under Tom Saviano a senior student of John McSweeney. I have an additional 6 years of off and on training with Ray Long a senior student of Tom Saviano as well as some grappling exposer with Tony Cecchine.

I recently purchased the IKCA video series with Chuck Sullivan and Vic LeRoux to see what they have to offer. I decided to go through the program to recieve the full video instruction before making any judgements. So until that time I complete it I can not make any judgements about.

I would like to ask though why is it so bad to some people that people like Chuck Sullivan or John McSweeney both promoted to 7th by Mr. Parker do their own thing with the Kenpo they were taught.

Isnt that what Mr. Chap'el are doing or Mr. Wedlake or any of the high ranking BB's who studied under Ed Parker. People are making distinctions about who is teaching as close to the original EPAK or the "secret" EPAK. 

If I gain one thing, just one thing from each of the senior instructors aren't I a better Kenpoist because of it.

The only true test I have ever seen is how your peers in Kenpo judge you. 

For what its worth I am right where I am supposed to be at in my journey of Kenpo, just like everyone of you is right where you are supposed to be at. 

Be safe all.


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## Doc (Jan 3, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> My experience.
> 
> I have fours years of hands on training in White Tiger Kenpo under Tom Saviano a senior student of John McSweeney. I have an additional 6 years of off and on training with Ray Long a senior student of Tom Saviano as well as some grappling exposer with Tony Cecchine.
> 
> ...



It is good to recognize where you are and set a path to achieve your goals, whatever they may be. The efficacy of any program can only be judged by its participants and what they are willing to accept. That is, as long as it's acceptable to you, (an your particular peer group), it doesn't matter.

However, when you remove what you're willing to accept from its own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, you may find that in comparison, it falls short. Than you must have the conviction to accept the facts and re-educate yourself, or accept and embrace a lesser ideal. The idea that all of these versions, videos, teachers, students, etc are all equal is not reality. 

As for myself, a gentle correction; I am not "doing my own thing," but simply taking the path taught to me and outlined by my teacher, which for many is exactly what they are doing as well. Not everyone, but many of them. By the way I'm not offended by your statement, just a kind correction. 

*"Students are like water and will always seek their own level, but that is also why just because the red show, it don't mean that you know." - Ed Parker Sr."*

In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker. 

"Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the *majority* of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody. He called it "business." Anyone that knew Parker also knew he was one hell of a businessman. He actually maintained the integrity of his personal art, and created a multi-million dollar business at the same time. Pure genious. As I see it, with the notable exception of Parker himself, that is impossible to do. Most have to choose one or the other, and anything else is a compromise.


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## Thunderbolt (Jan 3, 2005)

hey Doc,

great post. I hope you had a wonderful new year. I have 1 following up question about Mr. Parker and i hope you don't mind to answer it if it is NOT answered.

Why AK system doesn't have a successor like other kenpo systems (GM Ralph Castro of Shaolin Kempo named his son as a next leader).?

I can't figure out why we don't have a successor for a good art like AK.???

 Mr Parker Jr was not interested in inheritaging his father's art OR Mr Parker Sr passed away early before naming 1 successor.?

do you still think that we still have a chaos in AK even though we have a successor.???

thank you for answering my question.


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## BallistikMike (Jan 3, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> It is good to recognize where you are and set a path to achieve your goals, whatever they may be. The efficacy of any program can only be judged by its participants and what they are willing to accept. That is, as long as it's acceptable to you, (an your particular peer group), it doesn't matter.
> 
> However, when you remove what you're willing to accept from its own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, you may find that in comparison, it falls short. Than you must have the conviction to accept the facts and re-educate yourself, or accept and embrace a lesser ideal. The idea that all of these versions, videos, teachers, students, etc are all equal is not reality.


I agree 100%. Your peers and your reality are very different from my own.

When you say "remove what I am willing to accept from it own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, I may find that in comparison, it falls short." I may also find that it exceeds those comparisons also correct?




			
				doc said:
			
		

> As for myself, a gentle correction; I am not "doing my own thing," but simply taking the path taught to me and outlined by my teacher, which for many is exactly what they are doing as well. Not everyone, but many of them. By the way I'm not offended by your statement, just a kind correction.


That is down right awesome imho. To have an individual training guideline laid out by Mr. Parker himself. I am envious  Not being sarcastic I really am.

*


			
				doc said:
			
		


			"Students are like water and will always seek their own level, but that is also why just because the red show, it don't mean that you know." - Ed Parker Sr."
		
Click to expand...

*


			
				doc said:
			
		

> In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker.
> 
> "Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the *majority* of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody. He called it "business." Anyone that knew Parker also knew he was one hell of a businessman. He actually maintained the integrity of his personal art, and created a multi-million dollar business at the same time. Pure genious. As I see it, with the notable exception of Parker himself, that is impossible to do. Most have to choose one or the other, and anything else is a compromise.


See now this is what really irks me. I would like to know these things. I would like to have the information available so I can make an informed decision! I wouldn't care who's toes were stepped on, even my lineage. I would like to know both sides of the story so I can make as an informed decision as possible. 

How do I find this information out?


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Jan 3, 2005)

Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.

D.


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## Dark Kenpo Lord (Jan 3, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.
> 
> D.


Now that has to be the quote of the century, good call.

DarK LorD


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## BallistikMike (Jan 4, 2005)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Careful what you ask...you might not like the answer, and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it.
> 
> D.


Liking the answer and finding out the truth are two very different things. I know the difference.

 "...and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it."

This is true, its also why I joined this forum and have asked questions and made statements. I seek knowledge, at least what I am capable of understanding with my current level.

I dont mind the bumps and bruises here, or on the floor. I dont mind the growing pains I may suffer. I am no internet warrior, by far! I will more then likely stumble through posta with questions and statments. I just want to read and learn.

When I get caught up in the emotion of posting here, I take a step back, withdraw and rethink what caused it. See its on me why that happens not the people answering my question or my statement.

Be safe.


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## Brother John (Jan 8, 2005)

eternalwhitebelt said:
			
		

> actually there is a standard lesson plan for jun fan, which is the base art of jkd.


There is no 'base art' to Jeet Kune Do, it's not an art and it is bound by no art. It is a philosophical approach to martial arts and their 'expression' through the individual. I believe that as soon as you begin to put boundaries on it, ascribing it to these people or those....this are or that... that you've left the originators concept of Jeet Kune Do., but even that...in the end, is good. It's YOUR path. 
 :idunno: 
Your Brother
John


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> I agree 100%. Your peers and your reality are very different from my own.
> 
> When you say "remove what I am willing to accept from it own venue, and bring it into the real world where it will be compared to others, I may find that in comparison, it falls short." I may also find that it exceeds those comparisons also correct?


Theoretically anything is possible - but realistically, not likely.


> That is down right awesome imho. To have an individual training guideline laid out by Mr. Parker himself. I am envious  Not being sarcastic I really am.


While that is true, Mr. Parker did that for alot of people, but his "lesson plans" had varying levels of knowledge. The majority of it was wholly conceptual with no "real" knowledge beyond the physical principles the individual brought to the table himself. Everyone defato chose their own level whether it was the earlier systems or the commercial motion business. Although it is true you can explore "motion" infinitely, that is not real knowledge. If I teach you addition, substraction, and multiplication you will not "discover" calculus.


> *
> See now this is what really irks me. I would like to know these things. I would like to have the information available so I can make an informed decision! I wouldn't care who's toes were stepped on, even my lineage. I would like to know both sides of the story so I can make as an informed decision as possible.
> How do I find this information out?*


*
Unfortunately people treat the art as a "time investment." Once they have invested time, and acquired rank they are vested and do not want to accept that maybe their time was not as productive as they thought it was.

Starting over is difficult for anyone who's focus is on the "time" and "rank" over the knowledge. Both are immaterial to knowledge without the appropriate teacher. But that too is difficult. What looks great today, someone may come along and show you it is not what you thought it was a year later. Therefore your expectations have to constantly adjust to the available circumstances, none of which may be what you are truly looking for. Nothing is more difficult than looking for something, but you don't know what "it" is. You only know you haven't found it.

"Starting over" when you feel that you have already accomplished something is hard for most people. Most just keep doing what they are doing, accepting the level they are involved in, and keeping the rank and not losing the time investment.

Find a teacher you believe has it, and be prepared to be wrong and try again. Sometimes it's like falling in love with a beautiful woman, only to find out she really is a man. You move on, be more careful, ask better questions next time, and look for physical proof.

To echo a previous comment - 

Hint: you won't find real knowledge on video or at a distance. People traveled all the time to seek Mr. Parker out, why? Because they had no choice if they wanted his counsel. Harvard is in one place and doesn't do distance learning. If you want Harvard, you go to Harvard or you "settle" for Mill Valley Community College.

But be careful because everyone doesn't belong at Harvard. The majority belong at a Community College somewhere. See we are back to Mr. Parker's anaology about water and students - they both seek their "own level."*


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## Doc (Jan 8, 2005)

Brother John said:
			
		

> There is no 'base art' to Jeet Kune Do, it's not an art and it is bound by no art. It is a philosophical approach to martial arts and their 'expression' through the individual. I believe that as soon as you begin to put boundaries on it, ascribing it to these people or those....this are or that... that you've left the originators concept of Jeet Kune Do., but even that...in the end, is good. It's YOUR path.
> :idunno:
> Your Brother
> John


Very well said sir. When Bruce died there was a mad scramble (sounds familiar) to commercialize JKD which has no structure. That is why there is usually someone's name attached to all the variations of JKD Concepts. The funny thing is it's number one student concentrates on Silat and Kali. Does that tell you something?


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## GAB (Jan 9, 2005)

BallistikMike said:
			
		

> Liking the answer and finding out the truth are two very different things. I know the difference.
> 
> "...and may not be geographically located to do anything satisfactory about it."
> 
> ...


Hi,

The above quote is really a good post. I commend you, and may I add. 

Please don't change.

Regards, Gary


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## John Bishop (Jan 10, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> In Parker's later years he recognized certain aspects of some of his Kenpo interpretations were, in his words, "... way out of control, and an entity feeding upon itself." and rank virtually, in many many cases meant nothing at all, no matter who it was or how long they had "known" Ed Parker.
> 
> "Knowing" someone doesn't mean you are contiually a true student. In fact the *majority* of Parker's senior ranks over his lifetime either left him to "do their own thing," were "fired," or were literally "kicked out" and that was almost everyone. However with only a very few exceptions, he always remained cordial with everybody.


Boy ain't that the truth.  Surprising how many of these people now claim to have been "like sons", or "longtime personal students".  They never made those claims when Mr. Parker was alive.


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## Doc (Jan 10, 2005)

John Bishop said:
			
		

> Boy ain't that the truth.  Surprising how many of these people now claim to have been "like sons", or "longtime personal students".  They never made those claims when Mr. Parker was alive.


Yes, as you know John the names would "shock" most. It is also interesting how so many so-called students jumped lineage. Most of them were actually students of students. Mr. Parker always co-promoted with most on the recommendation of their instructors, who where in many instances just "casual" students themselves. The business structure he created was absolute pure genius.

I've always been envious of Kajukenbo's much more rigid control of its lineage and structure. The business definitely "blurred" the lines between Mr. Parker's various interpretations and eras. It truly was "out of control." But in his defense he always said, "It is what it is. No more no less. People will always make of it what they want, and I can't control that."

Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.


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## Jonah (Jan 11, 2005)

Originally Posted by DOC:

*..Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.*



I see rank as a kin to professional qualification and therefore once attained I think that is for life.



However I think a good idea would be to mirror the professions. As in my profession, to stay registered and be able to practice, we must be subject to CPD  Continued Professional Development where we must prove to our Registration Board that we have attended relevant seminars, kept in touch with legal and regulatory changes / updates and be able to prove a relevant level of competency. What do you think


A bit off thread but DOCs finishing statement sparked off my thoughts
Jonah


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Jonah said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by DOC:
> 
> *..Only in the arts is rank forever, no matter when or what you got it for, or what you may have done since.*
> 
> ...



Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.



Oh yeah,
A certain segment of academia created "grading on the curve" to justify mediocrity. After they suceeded in dumbing everyone down with that brainstorm, they switched to "social promotions." Translation; "He's been around awhile so let's move him up." Sound familiar? Not in my house.


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## Jonah (Jan 11, 2005)

I suppose its how the student him/her self looks at it. Do we look at progression as a way of proving something to others or, like I do, to yourself.

May be I want to live in an ideal world were people at the top of the chain are the best around to fill that role.

Jonah


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.



Oh yeah,
A certain segment of academia created "grading on the curve" to justify mediocrity. After they suceeded in dumbing everyone down with that brainstorm, they switched to "social promotions." Translation; "He's been around awhile so let's move him up." Sound familiar? Not in my house.


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## Doc (Jan 11, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Well on the face it may sound like a good idea, but who controls it? Why should some bozo who got his black belt through a video course be considered "in the fraternity' for life. How about the guy who studied with the guy at the strip mall? You know the twenty-five year old 8th degree who created his own style, and promoted a bunch of his students to black belt? Without standards in what is essentially a business marketplace, none of it holds water. All you can do is look at the head(s) of organizations, the product(s) they produce, and the integrity they bring to what they do. And that's why I won't do "distance learning" or make a buck first over controlling the quality and standards of student participants. We have one standard. Meet it or move to a standard you can meet. We call it "Integrity Through Excellence." Simply by promoting uncompromising excellence, integrity is assured and it defacto weeds out those that don't belong. For some our standards are too high. Maybe for some they are too low. A student will always seek their own level. A high school secondary education or move on to a prestigious college, or somewhere in between. That's the way life works, after all; everybody can't get an "A." Some are just happy to not get an "F." The majority are just "C's." That why they call it average. We don't take average students.



Oh yeah,
A certain segment of academia created "grading on the curve" to justify mediocrity. After they suceeded in dumbing everyone down with that brainstorm, they switched to "social promotions." Translation; "He's been around awhile so let's move him up." Sound familiar? Not in my house.


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## eyebeams (Jun 3, 2005)

Grading curves set median grades based on departmental or administrative preferences to ensure consistent marking between instructors at a given university or department in classes with a threshold number of students (Harvard uses 30) to apply statistical significance.

 In fact, grading curves are a common method to prevent grade inflation. The curve does not have the purpose you imply it does; it lowers opportunities for high grades as well as increases some low grades.

 Grade inflation is a continuing problem, and has been for decades. See:

http://www.azstarnet.com/grades/1928.html

 As you can see, that occurred 70 years ago, largely because instructors ignored the curve and its limits on upper level grades.

 Social promotion is an interesting case. You imply that students are simply upped into he next grade, but this isn't actually the case. Different boards use different strategies. Age-grade coincides with supplemental studies when the program is properly implemented, and on the flipside, grade skipping tends to also be limited. In both cases, supplementary material is applied to the individual student's curriculum, either as a remedial method or to provide additional challenges.

 Academic pactices are not generally based solely on sentiment or tradition. They are based on academic analysis linked to the issues that come up in actual institutions. Casually judging them is problematic, and likely to come up with inaccurate generalizations. Applying them to martial arts is likely to be even more problematic.

 While a veneer of academic clout may be tempting, martial arts knowledge is primarily demonstrative -- i.e, we know somebody is skilled because they can actually do something and practically apply their knowledge. In education, this is actually considered a viable third alternative to rigid testing and individualized study, both of which have problems. Fortunately, martial arts schools are not bound by the time constrainst and scale of traditional education.

 I think that usually, it's the arts that emphasize doing that maintain consistent standards. I note, for instance, that BJJ belt and Judo belts rarely experience questions about their competency. A BJJ blue has demonstrated what he knows repeatedly against live opponents. If a practitioner from  demonstration-based art knows his stuff, *you* also know.

 The only problem this creates is that demonstrations must be broad enough to encompass the full curriculum of a given art. I would go further to say that testing reflects the values of that art. In my case, I would trust the guy who can apply principles in an effective way and share them with another to the extent that they can do the same, over someone who studies something with more theoretical depth, but whose primary demonstrations have been static scenarios, essays and the use of art-related terminology.


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## evenflow1121 (Jul 21, 2005)

A lot of the concepts may seem similar, but a lot of the stuff in both systems are totally different from each other.  Just choose what you like, if you prefer JKD go for it.


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## Brother John (Jul 23, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Very well said sir. When Bruce died there was a mad scramble (sounds familiar) to commercialize JKD which has no structure. That is why there is usually someone's name attached to all the variations of JKD Concepts. The funny thing is it's number one student concentrates on Silat and Kali. Does that tell you something?


Thanks for the compliment, and TRUE:.. D. Inosanto does seem to focus on the Kali/Silat arts.....so then most don't see JKD as "looking" like anything else. To those two you mentioned I'd add a third: Thai Boxing. Those three together is how most modern "JKD" schools/clubs move...period. Which I think, by the definitions that Bruce Lee wrote out, is just another rut. I think that many would, if they didn't Know their credentials, look down their noses at the way.......say.......Jerry Poteet's "JKD" is expressed through more "Wing-Chun`ish" movement or Larry Hartsell's "JKD" through his grappling prowess.
But: They do express JKD very well also, just not the popular flavor (rut) of the day.

Your Brother
John


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## Hudson69 (Jan 2, 2010)

I am an EPAK student and a fan of JKD/Bruce Lee so take this with a grain of salt.

To me it seems like a then end result is pretty much the same; free response to a given situation.  The road to get there however seems to be different.

Kenpo for me is a set techniques for a given situation but as time goes on and you are advancing it is ingrained more and more that these are "sterile" attack-response situations in which ideally this is how it will happen.  Kenpo techniques are used as the vehicle to teach you to be able to respond and adapt as the situation changes with the ultimate goal to free from the use of any technique per se.  This understanding can come at any time but real freedom probably wont occur until deep into the system/training; use of sparring is one of the best tools for this since you have 2 or more people "fighting/resisting" without a script.

JKD seems to be (remember I have never trained in JKD) simpler techniques or less movements; like the longer, more advanced Kenpo techniques separted into smaller sub parts with the same goal in mind; free response to a situation.  JKD seems to have more potential to make you a better street fighter faster due to the earlier emphasis on shorter "techniques" taught to situations with more emphasis on flexibility but overall fighting ability is up in the air and depends on the student not the art/system/training.

For me the Kenpo has worked really well and absolutely compliments every other system of self defense I have ever studied, especially my LEO Combatives.  

Would anyone from a JKD background comment on my JKD statements so if I am off it can be corrected?


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## Doc (Jan 2, 2010)

Hudson69 said:


> I am an EPAK student and a fan of JKD/Bruce Lee so take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> To me it seems like a then end result is pretty much the same; free response to a given situation.  The road to get there however seems to be different.
> 
> ...


What you say is essentially correct sir, but it really depends on the flavor or instructor of Kenpo of which you speak. I know in my line, we have the "JKD-Like" street sparring as an integral part of the training process, and it is codified within the structure. We refer to these as our SL-3 or Dictionary Technique component, and it must be functional before you even begin to see more complex material.

But keep in mind there are limitations to the JKD Concept because there are many elements that cannot be addressed free-formed in a sparring environment. The difference is JKD doesn't in general supplement their "sparring" with the elements of what we call our "Encyclopedia Techniques," where the real knowledge is contained. Street Sparring can develop limited skills as it is designed to do, but the knowledge of the art is embedded and archived in the more traditional self-defense techniques. Being a "Kenpo-Karate" (EPAK is actually a misnomer), student will give you one, but not the other depending on who teaches you.

An art must have both, and both should be functional and effective allowing a flow from one to the other, predicated on circumstances.


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## James Kovacich (Jan 2, 2010)

Doc said:


> What you say is essentially correct sir, but it really depends on the flavor or instructor of Kenpo of which you speak. I know in my line, we have the "JKD-Like" street sparring as an integral part of the training process, and it is codified within the structure. We refer to these as our SL-3 or Dictionary Technique component, and it must be functional before you even begin to see more complex material.
> 
> But keep in mind there are limitations to the JKD Concept because there are many elements that cannot be addressed free-formed in a sparring environment. The difference is JKD doesn't in general supplement their "sparring" with the elements of what we call our "Encyclopedia Techniques," where the real knowledge is contained. Street Sparring can develop limited skills as it is designed to do, but the knowledge of the art is embedded and archived in the more traditional self-defense techniques. Being a "Kenpo-Karate" (EPAK is actually a misnomer), student will give you one, but not the other depending on who teaches you.
> 
> An art must have both, and both should be functional and effective allowing a flow from one to the other, predicated on circumstances.


Nice post Doc,

The only technical flaw I see is that your view of "your" Kenpo can also apply to "some" of the better JKD instructors. To see JKD as a "concept" or just a martial art, either way is only half right. In JKD, without the arts foundation (art) their are no concepts and vice versa. Two halves of the whole, neither complete without the other. 

That last 2 sentences are and will continue to be argued till the grave and that argument is JKD's "cancer." Like many arts, in JKD there are good and bad, strong and weak instructors. But your post referring to Kenpo can be also apllied to the JKD instructors that "get it."


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## Doc (Jan 3, 2010)

James Kovacich said:


> Nice post Doc,
> 
> The only technical flaw I see is that your view of "your" Kenpo can also apply to "some" of the better JKD instructors. To see JKD as a "concept" or just a martial art, either way is only half right. In JKD, without the arts foundation (art) their are no concepts and vice versa. Two halves of the whole, neither complete without the other.
> 
> That last 2 sentences are and will continue to be argued till the grave and that argument is JKD's "cancer." Like many arts, in JKD there are good and bad, strong and weak instructors. But your post referring to Kenpo can be also apllied to the JKD instructors that "get it."



Keep in mind that JKD's premier teacher, Danny Inosanto, actually concentrates on Kali, Silat, & Escrima. JKD was never created to be a style or system but only a training/learning concept according to Bruce. That is why there is no real curriculum or structure. But as you say, like with any art, the teacher only with his knowledge and experience makes all the difference.


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## K831 (Jan 3, 2010)

Doc said:


> The Kenpo-Karate & JKD Connection
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Parkers creation, Kenpo-Karate, has a brother and a sister art. The sister is Jeet Kune Do (JKD). Well save the brother for another day.



I have to ask... what is the "brother" art?


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## Tames D (Jan 3, 2010)

k831 said:


> i have to ask... What is the "brother" art?


 
kfss


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## Doc (Jan 4, 2010)

Tames D said:


> kfss



KFSS and Limalama.


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## K831 (Jan 4, 2010)

Limalama or Kaju would have been my guess. I hadn't considered KFSS.

Any reason for the feminine/masculine designation?


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