# Case Study: Mugging without weapons



## Hawke (May 11, 2008)

sucker punch





I noticed in Los Angeles that "goofs" select their prey then attack them with their fists.  This also happens in other cities as well.

Using this as a case study what could you do to prevent this from happening to you?

A guy follows you into a fast food restaurant.

Then he attacks.

He goes through your pockets.


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## KenpoTex (May 12, 2008)

A former instructor of mine used to say: "In order to defend against an attack you need two things...you have to see it coming and you have to have time to react."

The guy in this clip was totally oblivious to what the other person was doing.  He had no chance whatsoever.

As far as how to deal with this type of situation, good situational awareness and an effective default response that protects you from being knocked down or knocked out (e.g. Blauer's SPEAR, SouthNarc's vertical elbow shield, Lee Aldrich's CowCatcher, etc.) will buy you time to counterattack.


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## Ahriman (May 12, 2008)

The attacker *in this case* made two great mistakes which would have made his action impossible to carry out against a prepared victim. The victim made at least one obvious mistake.
Attacker/1: It was clearly visible that he said something before the attack, revealing his presence.
Attacker/2: The movement was overly wide, easy to notice.
Victim/1: He ignored the presence of the attacker, thus he didn't have any chance.
...
Solutions we use: constant analysis of possible threats, keeping unknown others around us at least in the peripherial sight zone, always assuming that an unknown person is a possible attacker, visually checking for more common weapon carry positions, always having at least one hand near at least one weapon. This is hard to get used to, but has far more advantages than disadvantages. And it's better to be prepared for nothing for years than to be unprepared for that one moment when it'd be important.


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## kidswarrior (May 12, 2008)

The victim actually turned slightly _away _from the attacker before the attack. Looked to me like he might be afraid the guy was going to ask him for something, maybe money, and he didn't want to talk to him. _So he turned a blind eye, _so to speak. 

This attack would have been easy to avoid by the victim simply taking one half step backward, where he could keep everything in his peripheral vision, and then looking straight ahead, instead of in the opposite direction. No great MA system needed, but as others have said, simple awareness.


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## MJS (May 12, 2008)

Awareness is first and foremost.  Not knowing whats going on around you is what aids the bad guy.  In the case of the clip, this person was focused on the clerk.  From the clip, and the position of everyone, I'm surprised he didn't see this attack from the corner of his eye, ie: Peripheral vision.

In any case, there are certainly lessons to learn from this.


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2008)

I think it is easy to armchair quarterback something like this and look at "what he should have done", but how many of us are that hypervigilant?

No words were said before hand.  How many times do you walk into a McD's with someone behind you?  Do you sit there and think they are a threat?  Even if you tag them for consideration as a threat what would you do?

Even if you would have taken the time to take a step back so you could see him, if the attacker was that determined he would have waited for his oppourtunity to attack.  Wait until the guy looks down to his pocket or puts his hand in his pocket to get his wallet.


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## MA-Caver (May 12, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> I think it is easy to armchair quarterback something like this and look at "what he should have done", but how many of us are that hypervigilant?
> 
> No words were said before hand.  How many times do you walk into a McD's with someone behind you?  Do you sit there and think they are a threat?  Even if you tag them for consideration as a threat what would you do?
> 
> Even if you would have taken the time to take a step back so you could see him, if the attacker was that determined he would have waited for his opportunity to attack.  Wait until the guy looks down to his pocket or puts his hand in his pocket to get his wallet.


I'd have to agree with the others here that awareness is the key to any situation. In that case there should've been no situation but as it happens it was. 
I'm not going to armchair quarterback here, so on the should'ves I'll just shut up. 
On the hyper vigilant, I can only speak for myself. Yesterday while starting up the car I spotted someone walking up in the driver-side mirror, then the guy knocks on the window, I lower the window down enough so we can talk. He's angry and belligerent on something that I won't go into right now. (Harsh) Words were exchanged and he walked away. All that time I was thinking and preparing what to do should he take it to the next level. Waiting for him to reach in to the car or go for the door handle... doing my best to stay one step ahead of the guy. 
Just looking around and looking everywhere noticing everything and using experience to put it in it's proper category based on awareness levels.


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## tellner (May 12, 2008)

No matter how good you are you can't be at full attention all the time. You don't have eyes in the back of your head or Peter Parker's Patented Spider Sense. You can lengthen the odds. You can't eliminate them.

"His attention wavered for a moment. Never let that happen to you!"
"He wasn't constantly whirling around scanning every corner of the room in a defensive crouch!"
"How can we make ourselves absolutely safe from everyone who comes within twenty five feet of us?"

You take the measures that decrease your own reasonable risk as far as you reasonably believe they need to be. Past that there's not much you can do.


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## Ahriman (May 12, 2008)

Against a prepared and determined attacker no one has more chance than minimal.
But most attackers and muggers aren't that prepared or determined, so awareness can help quite much. There are situations against which you can't defend, like in a very crowded area, and occasional wavering of attention or misdirected attention are things you can't really remove from the equation.
...
About seeing these from an armchair - when we train, we record most of our fights for further analysis. When I mess it up, I can see where did I messed it up. There were examples when I messed up the same thing three or four times even as after the fight I could always see what was wrong.
Thus analysis and what we could or would have done are not always linked...:wink1:


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## theletch1 (May 12, 2008)

The purpose of this thread IS to armchair quarterback.  Not to put the victim down but to watch the interaction between attacker and victim and learn from it.  Just like watching game tapes for ball teams.  There is nothing wrong with the armchair QBing if it's purpose is to learn and discuss.  There have been some great responses so far.  Situational awareness is going to save your butt MOST of the time.  As Tellner said, though, no-one is omniscient.  Something I was reminded of this weekend is that over the years I've conditioned my body to take one hell of a punch and not have it put me so far out of sorts that I can't defend myself.  Can I be knocked out?  Sure.  Do I have a little better chance of a good reaction to a sucker punch that I just don't see coming?  Probably.  I'm not saying go to your dojo and take turns punching each other in the face.  I'm just saying that your training will/should give you at the least a very thin edge on the untrained.  See, nothing to worry about.:uhyeah: (we need a really sarcastic looking smiley)


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## MJS (May 12, 2008)

IMHO, theletch1s' post summed it up.  Likewise, I'm not putting the victim down either.  I'm simply saying things that are or should be common sense things.  I, as well as many others here, have said the same thing countless times on this forum.  

Do I walk around looking over my shoulder every 5 min.?  Am I some paranoid nut that is afraid to leave my house or my car?  Do I walk around with 5 guns starpped to my waist in case I get in a jam?  Of course not.  Do I have eyes in the back of my head?  Not at all.  Could I, as well as anyone else, get caught by an attack, even if its one that we physically see?  Sure.  I'm simply saying that we should be as aware as possible.  Would I expect an average joe with no martial arts training, to be as 'aware' as someone who does?  No, but again, this is 2008.  Crime is nothing new, and people should do their best to protect themselves.

Mike


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## Hawke (May 12, 2008)

I wrote this thread with the intention to discuss and dissect the clip so others will learn from it.  I apologize to anyone who thought I may have been putting the victim down.  This was not my intention.

I agree with situational awareness, but sometimes something might catch your attention (Lady in the red dress in MATRIX).

I never thought about conditioning the body for the surprise attack.  I usually condition the body to take a hit when I spar.

One thing I do out of habit is never walk close to a corner.  I give plenty of space so when I turn the corner I will hopefully have enough space to react if necessary.

Thank you for everyone that has contributed to this thread.  Hoping others that read the replies will benefit and learn from this experience.

Any other thoughts?


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## MJS (May 12, 2008)

Hawke said:


> I wrote this thread with the intention to discuss and dissect the clip so others will learn from it. I apologize to anyone who thought I may have been putting the victim down. This was not my intention.


 
For the record, I never thought that you were putting the victim down either with anything you said or by posting the clip.



> I agree with situational awareness, but sometimes something might catch your attention (Lady in the red dress in MATRIX).
> 
> I never thought about conditioning the body for the surprise attack. I usually condition the body to take a hit when I spar.
> 
> ...


 
Great points about walking close to a corner.  IMO, its the little things like that, that people do, that make a world of difference.  

Just this past weekend, I was at a restaurant having lunch with my wife.  We sat in a booth and I was facing the front door of the business.  Even while talking to her, I still caught people walking in, and I'd casually glance up.  Anything to worry about?  Probably not, but I was still aware of who was coming and going.


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## Deaf Smith (May 12, 2008)

Hawke,

SouthNarc's ECQC (Extream Close Quaters Concepts) class deals with this very thing. He goes through indicators that are givin off when you are being tested to see if you are a good victim.

Then if there is more than one attacker, the second one will walk on past and get out of your peripheral vision and then blind side you many times. That or distract you just enough so the first attacker, who has moved closer while making conversation with you, does the blind sideing.

He goes on to show tactics you can use to keep this from happening. Noticing the indicators and interpeting them, shifting your position of a 'stranger' walks on past so you can keep them in your peripheral vision. Language to use to keep them at a distance (distance is your friend here.) Eye jabs and flicks to force them back outside your personal zone and more.

Every student of the martial arts, SERIOUS students, need to know how it works on the street as opposed to the dojo.

Deaf


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## Hawke (May 12, 2008)

Sounds like SN conducts a good class.  Marc Denny talks highly about him as well.

A friend of mine went to a sparring class at a TSD dojang.  He has a muay thai and hapkido background.  He gets paired up to spar against a lady.  As the two were sparring another lady sneaks behind him and blind sided him and he went down.


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## Hawke (May 12, 2008)

Has anyone been in a confrontation where you are talking with an individual then he turns away from you?  For me this is a sign to change my angle and distance.  I going to assume he may attempt to attack me so I like to be somewhere else when he turns his back to me.

Confrontations such as these are rare for me, but they do happen.  Usually it's just talk, which is good for me.  I rather not fight if I can avoid it.

Where do people get the idea to sucker punch like that?  TV or movies?

The goof must have known there would be witnesses and to follow someone to a fast food restaurant then mug him.  He probably did not know nor cared about the security camera.  From the clip on the video I will assume he has unfortunately mugged others like that before.


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## kidswarrior (May 12, 2008)

Hawke said:


> Where do people get the idea to sucker punch like that?  TV or movies?


Unfortunately, I think from experience. As we saw, it worked. 


> The goof must have known there would be witnesses and to follow someone to a fast food restaurant then mug him.  He probably did not know nor cared about the security camera.


  In my experience, these guys don't think too far ahead. It's always amazing to see their inability to put together cause and effect, as in, if I commit this act, there's a very good chance I'll get caught and go to jail.


> From the clip on the video I will assume he has unfortunately mugged others like that before.


Probably first saw an older brother or homie do it before he launched out on his own the first time.


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## chinto (May 13, 2008)

a little distance is your friend. If I do not know the person or my gut says there is a possible problem, I make sure that there is at least 3 ft/ 1 M between me and people I do not know. that gives me time to see it coming and react.


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## Ahriman (May 13, 2008)

Such things happen here more frequently - their usuality depends on the area and it's inhabitants.
Turning away without correctly finishing the dialogue was almost always a sign of an incoming attack in my experience. When they turn away, I usually step one step diagonally back and grab one of my weapons, ready to draw it with another backstep would the possible attacker really attack. They usually turn far too much, thus they lose track of me for a moment, thus they usually become rather deconcentrated when their punch _(or kick or whatever)_ fails. They usually have enough time to realize the blade in my hand, so most usually such conflicts end with the attacker going away. There were only 2 occasions so far when I had to actually use my blade, both were caused by either the attacker's intent of following me or their more proper distance judge. Both cases ended with a cut placed cca at their wrists-hands, after which both attackers retreated.
Luckily here most attackers are very unprepared and not motivated enough to endure such harsh responses. This combined with the amount of training we do results in a feeling when you wait for the nuke to blow up and it's only a petard. Not as if I'd have any problems with that...
...
About restaurants: I love those with mirrors inside. We always pick our table according to visual cover of the area, available makeshift cover and weaponry, escape routes and such. This may seem a little paranoid or strange, but after you get used to it, it's close to nothing. And having a few violent crimes_ (I mean those that happen at such a place that they deserve mention in the media)_ every year convinces most people who would label us idiots. Friends don't have to be convinced, some of them wear more hardware than me.


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## Deaf Smith (May 13, 2008)

Hawke said:


> A friend of mine went to a sparring class at a TSD dojang. He has a muay thai and hapkido background. He gets paired up to spar against a lady. As the two were sparring another lady sneaks behind him and blind sided him and he went down.


 
Yea, keeps you on your toes and not think the one you are facing is the only one.

They have this rule in the Polite Society (more on that later). It's called the +1 rule. That is for every attacker presume there is one more! If only one has been detected, presume 2, if 2 presume 3, etc...

Deaf


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## punisher73 (May 13, 2008)

tellner said:


> No matter how good you are you can't be at full attention all the time. You don't have eyes in the back of your head or Peter Parker's Patented Spider Sense. You can lengthen the odds. You can't eliminate them.
> 
> "His attention wavered for a moment. Never let that happen to you!"
> "He wasn't constantly whirling around scanning every corner of the room in a defensive crouch!"
> ...


 
Those were along the lines that I was thinking.  

To me, and my definitions. I think "armchair quarterbacking" and learning from an incident are two different things.  Some of the earlier posts (could have been my mood yesterday) almost read like it wouldn't have happened to them.  My point was like Tellner's, there is only so much you can do, and things still happen.

I agree awareness is probably over 90% of avoidance in the first place.  But, some people were talking about the attacker saying something to the victim and then the victim turning away totally oblivious.  Listen to the victim's statement, there were no words or anything said beforehand.  There were no prior clues other than two people walking in at the same time.


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## tellner (May 13, 2008)

There was a mugger in downtown Portland a few summers ago who really freaked out the police. His MO was simple. He hid in dark, recessed old doorways. When victims walked by he reached out, pulled them in from behind, hit them hard in the jaw a few times, whacked their heads against the concrete, took wallet or purse and walked away. Nobody gave any kind of coherent description.

There was no conversation, no interaction and no eye contact. He didn't use a weapon or intimidate. It was just snatch, smash, grab and leave. The general Received Wisdom on the part of the police was that there wasn't much a person could do about it except walk closer to the street. 

This was one smart hardworking mugger. He was also smart enough to get out while the getting was good. Right around the time the first news stories circulated he quit abruptly. Maybe he explored other business opportunities. Maybe he left town. Maybe he stepped in front of a beer truck. I'm guessing he realized he had a good thing but there was no percentage in continuing. 

It's a good thing that most thugs aren't as smart or rational about their jobs.


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## Ahriman (May 13, 2008)

Now THAT'S an effective, prepared method. Unless you train to endure punches to the face, minimal chance to avoid. Lucky for the victims he didn't want to kill, for he could've done that with equal ease.
Only chance is if it's not totally dark. I always check doorways, but some are almost literally black as a black hole... :S
Such things are what we teach when it comes to offensive work. And efficiency of such things is the reason why we filter who we teach.


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## Deaf Smith (May 13, 2008)

tellner,

Maybe he became a 'victim' himself of poor victim selection in another town. That is, he finaly goofed and someone offed him when he tried to do his mugging (we can always hope you know.)

Out of the blue smash-n-run muggers and murderers are rare thankfully. Most muggers are just to despirate to cook up a routine like that. It takes a real cold person to just go around bashing people for their wallets. And most murderers in some way know their victim.

Deaf


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## arnisador (May 15, 2008)

Awareness would have made a huge difference here. Perhaps the person was looking away for some reason--shyness--but you have to keep your eyes open and be ready to move.


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## joeygil (May 15, 2008)

Well, if I were in that situation...I'd probably get punched.  Too much ADD to keep decent situational awareness.  Hopefully, I've taken enough hits that it wouldn't take me out completely.  But as my guro says, "When your a black belt, and take a good punch to the head, you're suddenly a brown belt."  And so on.


Anyway, the thing that disturbs me most are the racist comments on YouTube.


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