# hidden movements in tang soo do?



## master dave (Nov 30, 2002)

are there really hidden movements in tang soo do hyung? remember, these were not the creation of GM hwang kee. the pyung ahn, pinon in okanawan or heian in japanese were incorporated along with our black belt forms into our art. were certin movements hidden in the forms? were these omitted from the training of the u.s. service men stationed in korea? if so why?is there more to our art then meets the eye? are we actually attacking meridans? pressure points? in tsd hyung. is grappling hidden in our hyung? in jin do (chinto) at the end of the form on the turn around movement are you really breaking the neck of your opponant? in wan shu is it really a high punch or are you attacking under the chin with the back of the hand a meridan? was wan shu actually called the killing kata? at the final movement of wan shu where you pic up your opponant dumpimg him are you really landing on him taking his life?  are the pyung ahn forms filled with these tecniques. pressure point and meridan applications? let me say im not a dillmen fan, never seen any of his videos or read any of his books, but is he onto something? ive been training in tsd going on 35 years. i also hold rank in shotokan. whats do you think? and why? is every thing reall as it seem? i look forward t some interesting responses. TANG SOO!!!!!! :asian:


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## yilisifu (Nov 30, 2002)

Yes, there are indeed hidden movements contained within the older (Okinawan) forms.  As Tangsoodo utilizes the old Ping-an (aka. Pinan; Heian) forms developed in Okinawa, there are special techniques hidden beneath the outer surface.  

I doubt that most of the Korean instructors even knew about them.  The Okinawans taught these forms to the Japanese with whom they never got along very well.  Naturally, they did not show the Japanese anything of the hidden techniques.

The Koreans learned the forms from the Japanese, so they would not/could not have learned these special techniques.

A good friend of mine, Master Seiyu Oyata, has been teaching these special techniques to the public for some time now.


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## karatekid1975 (Nov 30, 2002)

I agree with yilisifu. Yes, there is hidden movements in hyung. I once thought the first move of pyung ahn ee dan was stupid and had no purpose. My instructor gladly showed me what it was for. All I remember is that I was on the floor looking up at him. It happened so fast (it can be a throw). I never doubted him or hyungs  again


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## arnisador (Nov 30, 2002)

There's been discussion of this in the Karate forum here.


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## Shinzu (Dec 1, 2002)

no doubt.  not only have i seen these movements in action, but i have been on the receiving end as karatekid stated earlier.  every movement is not as simple as it looks.  

there is a deep meaning behind these techniques and forms.  why else woud it stand the test of time and still be taught today.  master dave, i also hold rank in shotokan so i know where you are coming from..OOOS...TANG SOO!


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## white belt (Dec 25, 2002)

Master Dave,

I have seen more realistic applications of the Pal Gae (TKD) patterns first hand.  When I say more realistic, I refer to other than the basic banging of arms and legs first taught to beginning students.

In the modern climate of the litigation happy public, my teacher realized early on, after coming to the U.S., that it was too risky to have even senior students practice some of the more volatile versions of the patterns.  He stuck with teaching the "soft" version of the forms, even for the senior ranks, up until recently.  I am a senior rank at his school and I started finding things on my own.  I then politely pressed the issue by asking for verification of proper interpretation.  He finally agreed, but he was / is not fully comfortable doing so.  I in turn agreed to not get careless and end up injuring a fellow senior when practicing the apps. found / shown.

From a marketing stand point, I know, through my own experience, that most people wanting lessons just don't want to practice things that present more risk of injury.  They, for the most part, want to learn some basic self defense and improve their health through the exercise involved.  I would estimate about 1 in 30 coming in the door would stick around if the school became more focused on joint breaking, sweeps, pressure points, etc.  People get sore and don't want to come back.  Even when control is there.  Breakfalls would freak out a large number of the average "get into shape" types.  Sad, but true where I have studied.  The ability to pay the rent would be jeapordized in either case.  My teacher conformed to ensure survival of another type.

Early on, when the "Do" movement was started by Kano and Funakoshi, they realized the same problems existed when dealing with the public.  They saw the potential good that society/ies could gain through martial arts practice and they developed a more user friendly version of the old battlefield "Jutsu" styles.  I don't really think that there was/is a mass conspiracy to keep techniques from others for racial or rivalistic reasons.  That concept rapidly dissolved about the time of the famous boxer rebellion when the "Iron Shirt" practicioners were beaten by firearms.   I think it was more to protect the mass marketing appeal of what their cultures had to offer both inside and outside of their sphere of influence.  That is what I have absorbed from a Korean Master in his mid sixties.  He would rather be known for sharing health and some basic defense than remembered for someone being maimed by one of his students and then be thought of as irresponsible.  I know there are evils on either side of the coin to consider, but that has been my experience through his eyes.  His/my experiences are not fully applicable to everyone I'm sure.

On the subject of Mr. Dillman, Earl Montague, of Australia, did an interesting study of his (Dillman's)  pressure point approach and he gives it mixed reviews.  I personally have not experienced his apps. first hand, but they do differ from my experiences of apps. for the most part.  Earl's two concerns were mainly the time of day feature, built into Dillman's Dim Mak theory, and his over emphasis on activating the Carotid sinus.  Earl predicts we will eventually hear of someone either not waking up or dying hours/days after the one touch knockout to the Carotid.  I hope he is wrong.

white belt


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## Pyros (Feb 5, 2003)

> _Originally posted by master dave _
> *are there really hidden movements in tang soo do hyung?*



The good thing is that most of the moves in Korean forms are very similar to those in Okinawan forms. So, even if the form was designed or modified by someone who didn't know the hidden meanings of the original ones, the stuff is still applicable if you just ask someone who knows how a certain block/punch combo becomes a throw or a takedown.

The people who study TKD for instance, can go to any open Karate Bunkai seminars and learn all the same stuff! (Bunkai is the term the karateka use for these applications) Any decent book on the Karate Kata Bunkai will help the TKD student just as well. Just keep an open mind and remember, the different karate styles have differences in the ways how they perform the blocks and other techniques, so consider your korean art just like it was just another style with a slightly different way in the details. 

You'll learn wonders when you open your mind and look beyond a single art or style.


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## karatekid1975 (Feb 5, 2003)

I know in Judo, we actually use "bunkai" in our kata. But I do want to learn more about TKD (WTF) hyung in that way (since I still do TKD). Is there any good books/videos for that? Any suddestions?


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## Pyros (Feb 6, 2003)

Try this book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/002-0872041-7331205?v=glance&s=books


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