# Another Get your Kenpo Blackbelt at home.



## superdave

When is the kind of stuff gonna stop? This guy is claiming that you can obtain your Blackbelt in American Kenpo is 365 days or less, following his program?  

More watering down Kenpo for a few bucks. 



http://www.adrianroman.com


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## Michael Billings

I don't remember the thread, but we have vented about "Chief Adrian Roman" before.



> " When you receive your Distant Learning Training Package, it will already contain your prestigious Black Belt Diploma postdated exactly one year from the date of your order.  "



and



> "When the  fee is received as well as your personal, and honorary declaration that you have gone through the material, GrandMaster Roman will send you another certificate, with the corrected date that corresponds with your training timeframe, that you can frame and display, that will show your expertise, in that particular belt level."



It never ceases to amaze me:



> The Black Belt certificate along with a FREE CEREMONIAL BLACK BELT will arrive with your Black Belt Program while the others will be sent to you as you send in your testing fee and certifications of completion. The FREE CEREMONIAL BLACK BELT is for displayed below your BLACK BELT certificate. Each  certificate is 8.5 x 11 and ready for framing in a standard document frame. Video testing is always OPTIONAL and never required, however, if you elect to test by sending in a video tape of your techniques and forms along with your testing fee, not only will you receive the signed certificate, but you will also receive your colored belt as an added bonus.







> ORDER NOW ! ! !
> 
> RECEIVE YOUR BLACK BELT DIPLOMA TODAY - EARN YOUR CERTIFICATION GUARANTEED IN 365 DAYS OR LESS THRU ROMAN'S DISTANT LEARNING PROGRAM
> 
> Click Here for Info:
> 
> AMERICAN KENPO CERTIFICATION NOW ONLY $995 RED WARRIOR $795



I wonder if he is rich yet? Nuff said.


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## arnisador

I deleted an extra copy of this thread.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Joe

I  wouldnt be interested in anything like that, but I have purchased Videos opn certain weapon forms or a perticular Kata I was interested what is the end difference both instructors are making money on  "home schooling".  Any opportunity to train is better than nothing, maybe thats all they have in area.


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## superdave

Too bad Ed Parker isn't around to kick this dude in his butt.  Looking through the current issue of Black Belt, I noticed Larry Tatum has a home study program also. 

I understand that Mr, Tatum is skilled and has earned his rank, but this kind of thing just helps to destroy solid martial arts systems.


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## satans.barber

What kind of egits send off for this rubbish!? The only people they're kidding are themselves, surely you'd have to be pretty dim to be taken in by it?

If they want a black belt that bad they should just go buy one for two quid in a martial arts shop, it'd be less of a rip-off than those distance learning courses!

Ian (black belt grading in 8 weeks, 6.5 years training for it)


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## Joe

So what your saying is that no one  has ever trained w/a video I would find that incredibly  hard to beleive.


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## kenpo_cory

> _Originally posted by Joe _
> *So what your saying is that no one  has ever trained w/a video I would find that incredibly  hard to beleive. *



No, what's hard to believe is that people think they can obtain the SKILL of a black belt through instruction given on a video tape.


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## Joe

I agree w/that stement i'm just saying for some thats all they have,eventually people w/realize the color of your belt doesnt show your skill.


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## superdave

The way I see it is like this. Yes you can learn *SOME* things from a video. You can learn basic strikes and stances to an extent,  some katas. But, I don't believe you could learn the self defense techniques or the advanced forms without the aid of an instructor. 

Videos were meant to be used as a teaching aid, not a complete replacement for an instructor.


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## Joe

So then we all agree.  Nothing is as good as one-on-one w/qualified and ranked Instructor.


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *Too bad Ed Parker isn't around to kick this dude in his butt.  *



If I legitimately earn a Black Belt in Kenpo and open a studio of my own, maybe even a club. I have already decided that I will have to seriously consider why I should not challenge this guy to a match at the UFC and donate all the proceeds to a legitimate Native American Charity.  

The Charity angle is necessary to not give him a good "out."

Frankly, I'm surprised no Kenpo Black Belt has challenged this guy in public.

Right now, I don't have any credentials and I am not in proper shape to go challenging people, but I anticipate getting there and exposing this guy in public will be high on the list.

Who were the guys that challenged VanDamme?  Bill Wallace and 10 others?  I don't see why Chief Roman has not been challenged in a similar fashion.

But I don't know for sure.  Maybe he's legit.  Maybe what he says is true.  I'll have to check that out thoroughly as well.

I agree this stuff is embarassing and an excellent example of "all that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing."

I guess I need to become a good man. Then once I verify this as "evil" I'll execute whatever recourse I can that is in accordance with Scripture.  I am sure the Bible must say something about what to do in these circumstances.

This is one of the more outrageous claims on the web.  How many times does he use Honor on his website?

I'll shut up, but the lack of the ability to use proper grammar is also a pet peeve of mine.  If you are going to claim, in English, that you are a Grandmaster... of something, then at least say it properly.

"If  you thought Kenpo was tough and sophisticated, get ready because we are raising the bar considerable. You will find it challenging and innovated."

Was he drunk when he put this up on the Internet for everyone on Earth to read? He can't even use the Alphabets of the English Language, why should we believe he is a Grandmaster of the Alphabets of Motion as prescribed by Mr. Parker?

I hate this stuff. I have been quiet for a while, but I had to chime in this time whether is it Scripturally sound of me to do so or not.


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## MJS

A video is NOT going to teach the fine points that you will get from a good Inst.  If you already have a solid background, then yeah, the video might be able to give you a few things, but nothing can take the place of an actual Inst.  You see this with every art out there, not only Kenpo.  Its really amazing as to what lengths people will go to just to make some extra$$$$.  Its really sad to think that people actually spend money on stuff like this and then think that they are actually at Black Belt level.

Mike


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## clapping_tiger

Although I belong to a school and I have an excellent instructor. I do know there are a few individuals who train via video through the IKCA. I do admit that I don't think everyone has what it takes to make a good Black Belt working via video, some people do need an instructor right there to show them and guide them through their art (yes, I am one of those people). But I think in order to make a good video program work is that the instructors need to be accessible at all times to the students via telephone, video, seminars, email, and advice on where they could go close by to get one on one instruction. I do know that Mr. Vic LeRoux and Mr. Chuck Sullivan do make themselves available at any time to their members. I think it is pretty harsh to say that nobody can make a good Kenpoist training via video. I have seen some damn fine Black Belts that have come this way, and some Black Belts (even up to 4th Degree) that sucked so bad it made me sick. I do agree that any program that claims you will be a black belt in 365 days is bogus, and you receive your black belt certification right away, and testing is optional?? That is a scam. But not ALL video testing programs work in such a manner. All I am saying is it is not the program or necessarily the Kenpo system, it is how you train. And whether or not you take advantage of all the knowledge and resources that is offered to you.


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## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Joe _
> *So then we all agree.  Nothing is as good as one-on-one w/qualified and ranked Instructor.
> 
> 
> 
> *



Yes. But the instructor can be miles away.  I am sure there are people on this board who just plain suck (this is not meant twards anyone in particular) and they may work with an qualified instructor everyday. And you know these people don't know or can't see just how bad they are. You get out of it what you put into it and although having a good instructor is important, how you train and how you study on your own is just as important.


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Joe _
> *So then we all agree.  Nothing is as good as one-on-one w/qualified and ranked Instructor.
> 
> 
> 
> *



And people to practice "on" and "with" whether it is that instructor or not.

My comments were in support of Mr. Billings' post.  As someone with a College Degree in Radio-TV-Film I can tell you for certain that I can  transmit some knowledge to you more effectively via videotape than is  often done in person.  Various camera angles, illustrations, etc, like a moving book.

But as Mr. LaBounty likes to say, Kenpo is a "Martial Art" and he also says something about there being no substitute for working the system on the mat, with a partner.

That is my point.  That and that the Chief will sell you his "honor  system" that comes with a certificate which certifies nothing if that quote is still on his site.

His site is amazing.  Look through it.

I will however say this.  For me, or for say someone with a black belt in another system, you can go through and read his site from this perspective and interpret it that he is just going to show you what Kenpo is.  Now this may be what he is claiming.

He will go ahead and demonstrate the system for you so you don't have to go to class for 5 years to see what it looks like.  This does have advantages as he has pointed out.  If you have physical skill and experience then maybe you can also work this material on your own and learn some or all of it.  Sort of like test-driving a car.  You get to see it and test it and then if you want to go to class for 5 years to learn it on a mat, at least you know what you are making the payments on.  

I don't know if this is what the Chief is saying or not.  I also don't know anyone who has ever met him.  Who has ever seen him teach a class, seminar or perform a Demo.  So I have no idea how good he is anyway.  But if he is good, then he could be saving you some time by letting you see the entire system.

However, I think for the half the price you could buy Mr. Tatum's tapes and see the entire system and get it from someone who you know knows what he is doing.  But you won't get a Black Belt on the honor system this way.

If the Chief did not give out the Black Belt certificate... and if he marketed this as a preview or a test drive then it would be less controversial I think.

But he really does seem to be selling Snake Oil by saying that his video course can in 1 year grant you the equivalent skill of one of his students who had spent 4 years with him on the mat.  This may be true for him now that I phrase it this way, but I doubt it is true for most.

That is what I don't like.  He claims this and then sells it as "honor."  I'm not saying that nothing can be learned from a video.  At minimum, you can rewind a video and keep it to watch again for years. You can not do this with a live event.


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## Michael Billings

Tommy Burks knows this guy.  I am not saying good or bad things about him, since I do not know him personally.  But I do know what my teacher thinks of him.

He is a Kenpoist.  He has video of Grip of Death up there right now.  I am criticizing how he is marketing Kenpo.  No tests, no video test, no requirements, Black Belt sent with your 1st shipment.  This is NOT the same thing Chuck Sullivan is doing.  At least there is some quality control with Mr. Sullivan ... and you know it is Mr. Parker's Kenpo ... and the system in it's entirety.

I am not critical of video tapes per se; they can teach a student who already has the fundamentals.  They can certainly be a good reference for any of us whose braincells die by the boatloads everytime we sleep, drink, ... well you get the idea ... some of us live in Senior Moments.  

Nothing replaces the feedback of an instructor when it comes to "How to Move".  You can always learn to wave your hands in the air, some can even hit hard, but I bet they could do that before the video tapes; but it would be challenging, to say the least, to learn application of the Principles of Motion without someone correcting, teaching, and reinforcing the type of movement Mr. Parker had.  Relaxed, sinking, whipping, with even an inch of body momentum thrown in - so you "feel" the power.  (Gee that just reminded me of him hitting me, I wish I had more time with him personally ... as do we all.)

Sorry I meandered off topic, but not really.  I am comparing what Mr. Parker gave, whether in a class, seminar, on the phone, in a coffee shop, lobby of a hotel, or standing outside ... he was always teaching, to what Chief Roman is offerring.  Seems somewhat thin to me.  But I am in Texas, and it is not about "challenging" others as Doug infers.  You can email him and question him ... I have, and got a very courteous response.  He is making a living!

Chuck Sullivan, Vick LeReaux, Larry Tatum, Sabaki, and Mr. Parker's 1st two tapes, the forthcoming Kenpo Chronicles ... there is nothing inherently bad with video or DVD as an adjunct to training.  Mr. Parker knew this ... and it was going to be part of his business offerring.  Once again, it is the "Buying a Belt" without anything else that bothers me.  I just wanted to be more specific about the issue that bothers me.  In a perfect world the "honor system" he touts would be a wonderful thing.  

In this case the Black Belt Pledge has something to do with why I posted on this at all:




> _Black Belt Pledge:_
> 
> *I hold that my time and my skill are the assets of my profession, assets which will grow in value as I progress in the Art until I stand as a fully qualified instructor. It shall also be my responsibility to protect any student from ravenous individuals who would try to take advantage of personal weaknesses, to divest the gullible into unprofitable gains,  to preserve the sacred things, personal beliefs, family, and the art of Kenpo, I pledge my all.*



OSS


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## cdhall

You go Mr. Billings.
I may have come off a bit harsh, but it was in favor of the Black Belt pledge (which as I mentioned, does not apply to me yet...) so I'm not issuing a challenge, but it sure seems to me that  "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark."
http://www.bartleby.com/100/138.32.57.html


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> [
> I am not critical of video tapes per se; they can teach a student who already has the fundamentals.  They can certainly be a good reference for any of us whose braincells die by the boatloads everytime we sleep, drink, ... well you get the idea ... some of us live in Senior Moments.
> 
> Nothing replaces the feedback of an instructor when it comes to "How to Move".  You can always learn to wave your hands in the air, some can even hit hard, but I bet they could do that before the video tapes; but it would be challenging, to say the least, to learn application of the Principles of Motion without someone correcting, teaching, and reinforcing the type of movement Mr. Parker had.  Relaxed, sinking, whipping, with even an inch of body momentum thrown in - so you "feel" the power.  (Gee that just reminded me of him hitting me, I wish I had more time with him personally ... as do we all.)
> 
> OSS [/B]



Excellent points!!!  

If you already have a base in the art, then yes, a tape might help refine some of the movements, but if you have never rolled on the ground, and you go out and buy a BJJ tape, yes, you might be able to pick up a few moves, but I'd say that the majority of people in that situation would be looking at the tape and thinking, "How the hell am I going to do this stuff????"

To offer someone ranking through the mail, IMO is not right.  It opens the door to a bunch of fake people who open up a school, misleading potential students into thinking that they are some great master or something, when in reality, they are not!

Definately do your homework when looking into a school.  I'd rather give my money to someone who earned the rank that they wear around their waist, through hard work, rather than by sitting in front on the TV copying moves from someone.

Mike:soapbox:


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by MJS _
> *To offer someone ranking through the mail, IMO is not right.  It opens the door to a bunch of fake people who open up a school, misleading potential students into thinking that they are some great master or something, when in reality, they are not!*



You know, there are people that do this in person! Video is just another avenue!  

How do you tell though?  I don't know how to tell a brand new student how to pick a good school.  They can not know how to tell.  The instructor will be able to impress them and there are many places to get rank certificates and lineage from... it would take a long time to find a way to determine if your potential first instructor was worth signing up with or not.


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## MJS

You're right, it is hard to tell.  It sounds easier than it is I guess.  But I suppose you can watch a few classes, talk to the Inst. and the students, and if he happens to be part of an org., maybe checking with them to see if he is legit. might be a good start.

But, you are  correct.  How will a new student know the difference if they never trained before?  They wont know what to look for.  I suppse, just like buying a car, home, or any other big purchase, you need to find some way to check.  The internet is a good place to start!

Mike


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## theletch1

I'm not gonna weigh in on the video series here.  You've all already said pretty much what I would say myself.  What I will address is picking that first instructor.  It is rare that someone who has never had any training in the martial arts has any idea how to go about researching an instructor.  To do so with any degree of efficiency requires at least a passable amount of knowledge of martial arts in general.  Go to sit in on a class? No, that's just a sales job and is easily misleading. If the instructor is a huckster and his students are clueless then the unitiated visitor will not be able to pick up on it.  Research him on the web?  Not always.  There are some very good instructors around that aren't easily found on the web and some of the biggest jokes around (CHAK ring a bell) have sites that would easily fool the begginer. We, as martial artists ourselves have a responsibility to the furtherence of all of our arts to proactively assist new folks in finding quality instruction that suits them.  Even if this means sending them to a style other than our own.

There will always be people who want to take the easy road, to get the rank without the work and so long as human nature remains the same there will always be someone there to take advantage of that.  Those of us who put in the years of work to earn rank, gain profficiency are in it for love of the art and an understanding that that is the only way.  Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about.


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about. *



I don't get it.  This seems to me to be like ordering a worn Leather Harley Jacket on eBay and talking about how many years you rode a hog.

I guess that could be fun until a Hell's Angel hears your story.

I know there are other perspectives, but this is why I can't understand why anyone would want to buy a Black Belt...

I guess there are people that will buy one and then use that to gain some position somewhere or charge money to teach.
:idunno:


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *I'm not gonna weigh in on the video series here.  You've all already said pretty much what I would say myself.  What I will address is picking that first instructor.  It is rare that someone who has never had any training in the martial arts has any idea how to go about researching an instructor.  To do so with any degree of efficiency requires at least a passable amount of knowledge of martial arts in general.  Go to sit in on a class? No, that's just a sales job and is easily misleading. If the instructor is a huckster and his students are clueless then the unitiated visitor will not be able to pick up on it.  Research him on the web?  Not always.  There are some very good instructors around that aren't easily found on the web and some of the biggest jokes around (CHAK ring a bell) have sites that would easily fool the begginer. We, as martial artists ourselves have a responsibility to the furtherence of all of our arts to proactively assist new folks in finding quality instruction that suits them.  Even if this means sending them to a style other than our own.
> 
> There will always be people who want to take the easy road, to get the rank without the work and so long as human nature remains the same there will always be someone there to take advantage of that.  Those of us who put in the years of work to earn rank, gain profficiency are in it for love of the art and an understanding that that is the only way.  Those that order the rank through the mail simply don't understand what the arts are all about. *



But how are you going to know if the guy you are training under is a fake or not?  Just because you put in the hard work, you still might be learning from a fake.

Unfortunately, it might take years for the person to realize that they wasted many thousands of dollars.  

Mike


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## kenpo3631

> _Originally posted by kenpo_cory _
> *No, what's hard to believe is that people think they can obtain the SKILL of a black belt through instruction given on a video tape. *




What abouth the IKCA? That's through video instruction?


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## Michael Billings

... as far as I know Mr. Sullivan and Vic LeRoux have their bone fides and are pioneers in making this work.  They also see their students and test them.

See:

*Karate Connection* 

It is substantively different from Chief Roman's paradigm of teaching.  Still not my  preferred method, but hey ... it is a big world and there just are not enough qualified Kenpo Instructors to go around.

MB
Kenpo-Texas.com


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## Kirk

> _Originally posted by kenpo3631 _
> *What abouth the IKCA? That's through video instruction?  *




Things to note about the IKCA here.  

1)Not ALL IKCA is done via video.

 1a)  Once a certified instructor, one can promote up to 1st
brown without video instruction or approval.  

2) Video learning is only part of their process.  A video test for
each belt must be submitted.  A video critique of the test, pass or
fail is then sent back, along with personalized video instruction for
the next rank, which goes along with the video instruction of the
next rank.
NOTE:  More fail the video tests than most I've ever heard about
from other places (personally heard of which consists mostly of
internet "relationships".

3) Watch these guys in action.  They just might impress you.


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## Michael Billings

That was my point Kirk.  It is not all bad ... it is the selling a belt that is bad.


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## Kalicombat

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *This is NOT the same thing Chuck Sullivan is doing.  At least there is some quality control with Mr. Sullivan ... and you know it is Mr. Parker's Kenpo ... and the system in it's entirety.
> OSS *



Mr. Billings,
   I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety. Mr Sullivan is in fact bona fide, but the IKCA system is quite different from EPAK. While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques, 1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills. However, if a person is interested in learning ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, the IKCA is not a viable source of instruction. In my opinion, it is an option for those that have no other medium, however, there are tons of EPAK videos available. Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years.  Im neither trying to discredit the IKCA nor pass judgement. Merely stating fact. IF a person wants to learn the EPAK system, including all techniques, extensions, sets, forms, peldges, creed, language, concepts, and principles, then the IKCA is not a source of information for achienving that goal. If a person wants to learn Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Leroux's interpretation of the Kenpo that they were taught by Mr. Parker, and are not interested in achieving EPAK instruction, then by all means, the IKCA is their ticket. 

Yours In Kenpo,
Gary Catherman


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## arnisador

> Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years.



What is the average in EPAK?


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## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Things to note about the IKCA here.
> 
> 1)Not ALL IKCA is done via video.
> 
> 1a)  Once a certified instructor, one can promote up to 1st
> brown without video instruction or approval.
> 
> 2) Video learning is only part of their process.  A video test for
> each belt must be submitted.  A video critique of the test, pass or
> fail is then sent back, along with personalized video instruction for
> the next rank, which goes along with the video instruction of the
> next rank.
> NOTE:  More fail the video tests than most I've ever heard about
> from other places (personally heard of which consists mostly of
> internet "relationships".
> 
> 3) Watch these guys in action.  They just might impress you. *



That is exactly right. Although I have not personally tested via video, (except my Black Belt)I have met some other members of the IKCA that that are quite good and quite knowledgeable. One of the reasons you need to send in your test for Black Belt is that Mr. LeRoux and Mr. Sullivan do want to make sure that all Black Belt in the IKCA are truely quality martial artists. Even if you go to a school and obtain rank through a certified instructor, they must see you Black Belt test. And really, what is the difference (test wise)if someone is sitting on a panel watching your test, or they see it on video. If they have a question on whether you are hitting your targets,  preforming a technique correctly, or anything else in question they can always rewind it or play it in slow motion. That is something you cannot do in person. You do get an in depth review on video tape of what you have shown and thing to improve on and things you are doing wrong that need to be fixed. They show you any part of any technique you may be doing incorrectly and so on. Overall I think the system works just as well as any other system.


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## clapping_tiger

> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *
> I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American Kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety.  *



Very true and they do not claim to teach EPAK.



> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *
> While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques.  *



This is still the old issue of who knows more and who knows less. The goal here is to teach the student the same Kenpo principles and movements in less techniques. You are encouraged to create your own extensions (I don't know if this is done in EPAK) from orange belt on. there are extension suggestions and some that are required. The way I see it (once again this is my opinion and not what is stated through the IKCA) if I can learn a  Kenpo System that teaches me the same principles and concepts in only 55 techniques, or learn one in 124 techniques. I will go for the 55. (actually 60, there are only 55 techniques in the master form  Here is a list of the techniques--http://www.metzsmartialarts.com/techniques.html



> _Originally posted by Kalicombat _
> *
> 1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills.  *



To tell you the truth the master form is quite a challenge. It may only be 1 form, but is taught in 6 segments. The first one is first taught at orange belt. The unique thing about the form is that it is put together so it makes one long 3 min. form. It is true that the only set that is required is the kicking set for testing, but there is a lot of other material that is not required for rank tests that a student can learn and apply to their study.

I know you were not knocking the IKCA, but I just wanted to elaborate for others who may have wanted to know more.
 :asian:


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## Michael Billings

... and the standard answer, "Average people don't get Black Belts."  No but seriously folks, in EPAK it can take anywhere from 4.5 - 7 years.  This has been my experience, with some taking a little longer even.  Depends so much on how much time the student devotes to training, the level of the instructor, what the school offers in terms of time, and we all know that various EPAK schools, while teaching the same or similar curriculuums, do so at different rates and have different ranks for the same material.  Reference the 32/24/16 technique systems.  And this does not address the Tracy schools or Traco, which I would argue are still EPAK, just an earlier version and cannot be excluded or minimized.


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## theletch1

> But how are you going to know if the guy you are training under is a fake or not? Just because you put in the hard work, you still might be learning from a fake.



Research, investigate, ask questions BEFORE you commit yourself to the school.  Follow your gut instinct.  If you are serious about the arts then the time to find out all you can about an instructor before the commitment is a small price to pay.  Even with this a few "mail-order" masters will slip through the cracks.  I firmly believe that the mindset needed is that it is the knowledge that is important, the self improvement gained and not affiliations or rank that make the difference.  Finding that you've picked the wrong instructor after even just a year or two of training can be devastating (been there done that).  The truth is there are no guarantees but there are ways to hedge your bets.  Ask to see a potential instructors credentials, talk to his/her students and above all be suspicious when researching a potential instructor. It may sound a bit unfair to have a suspicious outlook on all instructors before you join up but you get burned once and you tend to approach the search for a martial arts home from a bit more of a defensive posture.


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## MJS

> _Originally posted by theletch1 _
> *Research, investigate, ask questions BEFORE you commit yourself to the school.  Follow your gut instinct.  If you are serious about the arts then the time to find out all you can about an instructor before the commitment is a small price to pay.  Even with this a few "mail-order" masters will slip through the cracks.  I firmly believe that the mindset needed is that it is the knowledge that is important, the self improvement gained and not affiliations or rank that make the difference.  Finding that you've picked the wrong instructor after even just a year or two of training can be devastating (been there done that).  The truth is there are no guarantees but there are ways to hedge your bets.  Ask to see a potential instructors credentials, talk to his/her students and above all be suspicious when researching a potential instructor. It may sound a bit unfair to have a suspicious outlook on all instructors before you join up but you get burned once and you tend to approach the search for a martial arts home from a bit more of a defensive posture. *



UUmmm....correct me if I'm wrong here, but didnt I already say this stuff????  I believe I did, and you turned around and said that talking to the Inst., talking to the students, watching a class, among the other things I said, would not be effective, and now you are sitting here saying the EXACT same thing as I did???

Mike


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *... and the standard answer, "Average people don't get Black Belts."  No but seriously folks, in EPAK it can take anywhere from 4.5 - 7 years.  This has been my experience, with some taking a little longer even.  Depends so much on how much time the student devotes to training, the level of the instructor, what the school offers in terms of time, and we all know that various EPAK schools, while teaching the same or similar curriculuums, do so at different rates and have different ranks for the same material.  Reference the 32/24/16 technique systems.  And this does not address the Tracy schools or Traco, which I would argue are still EPAK, just an earlier version and cannot be excluded or minimized. *



For us, it takes a minimum of 950 hours of verified lab time. Anyone who thinks they can learn to fight by video, deserves whatever they earn.


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## Michael Billings

Hopefully the video's are ancillary or an adjunct to your primary training.  I have no experience in working, testing, teaching with anyone who has progressed solely through video.  That should say something ... like wouldn't you want to meet and greet Kenpo Black Belts when you do get the chance, attend seminars, demos, tournaments.  I can only think of a couple of reasons why you would not seek out qualified instructors:

1)  You are so remote, and travel not at all, so you don't go to events in the same or contiguous states.

2) You actually KNOW what you know, or how little you know, and do not want to "put it out there". 

In all honesty, since I never have met a video Black Belt in 24 years of camps, seminars, etc., maybe I am being uncharitable, but with Gary Catherman's input ... which I did not know, I understand, maybe, why I have not met one of their Black Belts.



> Mr. Billings,
> I agree with most of your points, except this one. The IKCA does not teach Mr. Parker's American kenpo and the system is not EPAK in it's entirety. Mr Sullivan is in fact bona fide, but the IKCA system is quite different from EPAK. While it incorporated the same principles and concepts, it only has 55 techniques, 1 master form, a kicking set, and some unique drills. However, if a person is interested in learning ED PARKER's AMERICAN KENPO, the IKCA is not a viable source of instruction. In my opinion, it is an option for those that have no other medium, however, there are tons of EPAK videos available. Most IKCA'ers achieve blackbelt in under 3 years. Im neither trying to discredit the IKCA nor pass judgement. Merely stating fact. IF a person wants to learn the EPAK system, including all techniques, extensions, sets, forms, peldges, creed, language, concepts, and principles, then the IKCA is not a source of information for achienving that goal. If a person wants to learn Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Leroux's interpretation of the Kenpo that they were taught by Mr. Parker, and are not interested in achieving EPAK instruction, then by all means, the IKCA is their ticket.
> 
> Yours In Kenpo,
> Gary Catherman


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## cdhall

I saw an IKCA orange belt at a tournament last year or maybe the year before here in Austin.  

I was afraid to go talk to her.  I think she was a teenager or younger  and was there with her Dad.  I recognized her "big Kenpo Patch" right away on my way across the gym, but thought I should not go say much of anything for fear I'd rattle off where in town she could study in person. We have 3 studios strung pretty much on a North-South line here in Austin, so I left her alone because as much as I truly admired her spirit I did not want to be condescending to her and I could not think of who to talk to her without asking why she was not with Mr. Billings, Shroder or Duffy.  This was in Round Rock, so she was most likely closest to Mr. Billings by the way. 

I think it was very brave of her to go to a tournament when she learns by video. I was impressed by that thought.

Maybe if I'd run into her again I'd have spoken to her but it is possible that I also didn't see her again after whatever it was that I was doing.

I will also confess that I think a 3rd reason that someone might do a Video Study is of course for Rank alone.  For example, I think that I know enough Kenpo that I could buy all of Mr. Tatum's tapes and get a Black Belt from him via his home study course because I have so much experience in related striking arts.  In this case I mean that I don't need to spend any time in class working on new moves, I would only need to know what the moves are.  This of course would not be equivalent to training in class, but it could be sufficient for me to get the knowledge.

But if you don't know anything and you take your first martial arts via video, that seems to me like preparing to go to the Moon without simulations.  I mean, Astronauts used swimming pools and airplanes etc to simulate that as close as they could because it was necessary. 

I see Kenpo, the Martial Arts in General and Especially Sparring in that same context. You have to learn it by doing.  This is not like getting a degree in History where you don't have to be there to know what happened.


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## Turner

Distance Learning Programs 
Picture yourself in a typical Dojo: You and the other students stand in rows facing your Sensei, listening as he outlines a certain technique or principle. If you have a question you raise your hand, and when it comes time to demonstrate your technique your instructor or a senior student is there if you need help. Simple enough, but what if youre taking a distance learning program? 

Q: For distance learning programs, how is rank usually obtained? 

A: Most often, the instructor will require that you send a video tape of yourself demonstrating the techniques before providing you rank certification. 

Some organizations provide the rank based on the honor system, providing the certificate when you contact them and tell them you feel ready to be promoted, however this is often a dishonest method and testing in person should be required for all ranks.

Q: What do I do if I need help with my technique or have a question about a principle? 

A: The most obvious place to seek assistance is from the course's instructor. Be sure to establish a personal relationship with the instructor: Contact him or her routinely and be proactive in seeking advice. Many quality distance learning programs also have help desks to assist students. Many courses have an online forum where you can post your questions and have instructors or other students provide their input and experience.

If youre taking a course that doesn't provide support, youre on your own. But that doesnt mean you cant get help. Try searching the Web for information. The Internet is a vast storehouse of information. Help is out there, you just have to find it. I don't have a distance learning course but I offer free pre-testing or technique analysis to anyone that needs input.

Q: Is it easier to cheat in distance learning courses?

A: Cheating has always been fairly easy for the determined person, there are plenty of places where you can buy a certificate and a belt for under $30 with no proof of experience or previous rank. You can print off a good looking certificate using tools that come standard with most computers. However, cheaters mostly harm themselves. When/if they start teaching (most of them do it just to boost their ego and can pretend to be a know-it-all on the net.) if their students are intelligent they will automatically recognize them as a fraud.

Q: How do I know how well or bad I'm doing if I don't have an instructor teaching me in person?

A: In a well-run online course, students should receive regular feedback. Feedback is the most important thing in learning a skill. Since you are all alone with no classmates to compare your skill to, you need to have an outside opinion. Video tape your practice sessions regularly so that you can watch yourself and compare yourself with your instructor or send the tape to your instructor or if that costs too much, find someone that will give you feed back for a smaller fee. Even if you are not required to get feedback or skill assessment with your course, get it anyway. You cannot honestly claim rank just because you feel ready to wear it, because you will have a biased opinion and either judge yourself too easily or too harshly depending on your character.

Skill assessment in a distance learning environment is great for the distant learner. The examiner is able to play the video tape in slow motion, in reverse and as many times as he needs where as in testing someone in person they student would get worn out if the instructor tried that.

The draw backs of a distance learning course is often the lack of support and the curriculum is often watered down a little bit in order to fit it in the allotted time. Due to the fact that you aren't attending a class you might find it difficult to find a training partner to practice the techniques with. Having a training partner is absolutely essential to progress in any training program.

The benifits of a distance learning course is that the information provided can be viewed over and over until the information is firmly established in your mind. In person the instructor will more likely focus on the one aspect of the technique that he feels is most important and then move on to another technique, on video you can watch one part of the technique and then rewind and then place your focus on his footwork, then his weight placement, then his hand placement, then his hip rotation, so on and so forth. In class if you keep asking your instructor to go back and do it again so that you can see each aspect he'll probably get annoyed. With video you can go full speed, half speed, super slow motion, and reverse. When you tape yourself, you and your instructor can do the same thing in order to best judge the quality of your technique. I feel that this is so benificial that I video tape myself and my students in class so that we can see how we look from the third person perspective.

MOTIVATIONS FOR HOME STUDY

1. Simply put, knowledge is power. The more you know the better. Distance learning can provide different perspectives on the art that you study or give you a totally different perspective from an art that you have no experience in.

2. Style availability. It is a bad idea to train in a martial art just because the school is the one closest to your house. Each type of martial art is best suited to a person of a particular mindset or body type. If you are tall and limber, kicking arts are great. If you are short, Judo is great... so on and so forth. Often enough the perfect art for a person isn't found in their general area and so a Distance program is the way to obtain that information.

3. Conflict of interests. I've had a couple of people talk to me about driving a long distance to train with me or ask about distance learning because they had a personality clash with the instructor that was near-by.

4. Cost. There are people who desperately want to learn the martial arts but the cost for training is more than their life-style can permit and they don't feel comfortable going to the local instructors and working something out.

5. Personality. There are people who wish to learn the martial arts but don't feel comfortable in a group environment and would prefer to learn in the privacy of their own home.

6. Ego <negative, but still a motivation>. There are those that seek a course that will provide the desired black belt certification without them having to work too hard for it.

7. Time. I started using distance learning courses because I was working a rotating shift so I would only have been going to class every third week. I wasn't about to pay for a full month of classes just to take one class when the shift allowed.

I believe that distance learning courses can't replace quality instruction and I would recommend an individual getting training in the 'traditional' setting over distance learning, but I do believe that a beginner can make good use of the information and develop skill in the art IF they train seriously on a regular basis. That IF is very important. You have to be serious about learning the martial arts. If you need external motivation, home-study is bad because you don't have anything but self motivation. IF you are serious about learning the martial arts you don't even need a complete series of video tapes to teach you. You can learn on your own... as I did. I'm not exceptionally smart nor am I athletically inclined... It is just the fact that if you throw punches and kicks at a moderately hard object your body will naturally correct itself. (That is why they say the heavy bag is unforgiving... if you throw a punch or kick wrong it's gonna hurt.) 

Remember that most distance learning programs, aside from those like Dragon Kenpo and The Chiefs, require that you take the time to visit the instructor at least once a year. The more time you spend (as a long distance student) with other students who've learned in the traditional sense the better you will see how your abilities compare.

I firmly reject the idea that you can't learn self defense from video. If you can learn basics and forms then you can learn self defense. It is all motion...

Now, I am biased because I'm in a situation where I need to take a distance course based on the fact that I've visited all of the local instructors and I think that what they offer is pathetic. I'm being very harsh, but it is the truth. I'm not a fan of TKD or Aikido and most of the schools in my area are either TKD or offshoots of TKD. The rest are Judo. There is one BJJ class that I would love to attend but it starts too early in the evening for me to get to in time. So I'm stuck. I have always wanted to learn Kenpo Karate and so I'm doing my best to learn via distance. If there is nothing around, what option is there? I don't have a license so I can't travel the three hours to the nearest Kenpo school in Shepardston W.Va... which I plan on doing at least once a month or every other month when I finally do get my license, if I can get there after leaving work at 5...


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## Michael Billings

Just an FYI.  For several years I lived 300+ miles away from any Kenpo instructor.  I was 2nd Black going for 3rd.  I got my material from my instructor at the time, travelled several times to my current teacher for refinement and learning "HOW" to move, not just the material ... which I had.  The nice compromise that worked, was that I could not just video tape him, but under his supervision, I taped myself with him.  I had the audio, the video, had it in writing, with my notes, and I had the kinesthetic (the most important thing for me in learning.)

I just know that I could not have learned the HOW's without an instructor.  The WHAT (or material) I could get.  There just is no substitute.

I think about Doc Chapel's almost 1000 hours of "lab" time.  Broken down 950 hours is 71+ per month, or 17 hours per week, for a year.  This could be done in a year "theoretically" .... yeah, right.  That is in no way reality.  It would take years to master the material neccessary for the physical application (lab) and the intellectual requirements (home study.) 

I used my own tapes as a referent for all the Black Belt Extensions.  I may not have needed them, but making them was part of the learning process that helped me not need them.


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## theletch1

> UUmmm....correct me if I'm wrong here, but didnt I already say this stuff???? I believe I did, and you turned around and said that talking to the Inst., talking to the students, watching a class, among the other things I said, would not be effective, and now you are sitting here saying the EXACT same thing as I did???



Mike,
  You are correct sir.  I have directly contradicted myself in my two posts here...however, the two posts are from two distinct points of view and would require the reader to be able to decypher my own twisted train of thought.  One is from the point of view of an experienced martial artist and our responsibility to assist new/potential students and the other is from the point of view of someone with no experience and no one to assist in the search.  I was careful to add disclaimers that there are no guarantees in either instance.  I do apologize for the confusion.
:asian:


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## John Bishop

I still believe that an important part of martial arts training is developing a sense of family (what Hawaiians call "Ohana")with your brothers and sisters in your art.
These bonds are formed on the mat thru hard work and sweat, together.  This bond becomes so strong that after your partner gives you a fat lip or bloody nose (accidently) you pat him on the back and say "don't worry about it".  Class mates and instructors push each other to achieve excellance.  
Brothers and sisters of the mat sometimes become lifetime friends, husbands, wives, etc.   This whole sense of family is something that you can never get from video instruction.  And to not have it, is to miss out on one of the best experiences that the martial arts has to offer.  
Video training does have it's place in martial arts, but I feel it's as a supplement to regular in school training.

Call me old fashion     :soapbox:


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## Michael Billings

... and a pat on the back for a bloody nose or fat lip, heck, we usually say "great punch!   Show me how you got that in!"  or "Whoops, my bad, I blocked with my face ... AGAIN."  So long as you have the comraderie, then you know it is never on purpose that you get bloodied up.  They meant to hit, but not injure.  Kenpo is never having to say you are sorry ... unless it is your fault and you really did lose it, or ding somebody out of anger or frustration.  

Thanks Mr. Bishop, good point.


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## arnisador

There's an article in the current (Sept. 2003) issue of Black belt by Bobby Newman, Ph.D. on a study of video learning. It shows a picture of one of Mr. Tatum's videos but actually used a Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy video by Ed Hutchinson.

For the study, three people were trained in 10 techniques. If I understood correctly, for each person, some techniques were learned by video and some were learned by having an instructor teach them. For the techs. learned by video, the instructor served as a "dummy" bur didn't offer corrections. The study was done for the Intl. Assoc. for Behavior Analysis.

The article noted that 35% of ads in Black Belt mention some sort of distance education.

The article was very upbeat about distance education. (If I were to editorialize I might say "This shoddy 'study' and supporting article seem like simply a shill for video education programs", but we all know that Black Belt has too much integrity for that. :shrug: ) I think more research needs to be done.


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## Doc

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *There's an article in the current (Sept. 2003) issue of Black belt by Bobby Newman, Ph.D. on a study of video learning. It shows a picture of one of Mr. Tatum's videos but actually used a Dragon Kenpo Karate Academy video by Ed Hutchinson.
> 
> For the study, three people were trained in 10 techniques. If I understood correctly, for each person, some techniques were learned by video and some were learned by having an instructor teach them. For the techs. learned by video, the instructor served as a "dummy" bur didn't offer corrections. The study was done for the Intl. Assoc. for Behavior Analysis.
> 
> The article noted that 35% of ads in Black Belt mention some sort of distance education.
> 
> The article was very upbeat about distance education. (If I were to editorialize I might say "This shoddy 'study' and supporting article seem like simply a shill for video education programs", but we all know that Black Belt has too much integrity for that. :shrug: ) I think more research needs to be done. *



Unless the good doctor has a black in the discipline in question, how could he make an assessment of the effectiveness. I tend to agree with you. He was making a commercial or a bad disertation.


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## Michael Billings

Why would such an esteemed journal as Black Belt Magazine (tongue in cheek), promote articles regarding distance learning?  Hmm... let's think about it.  Can you say "Advertising Revenue?"  I knew that you could.  

How could they publish any article against video learning, maybe actually cutting  off a source of their own revenue from advertisers?  If I was running an ad with them for my video learing program, I would be pissed if an article in the same magazine came out saying it is not an effective way to learn.  On the contrary, it serves the magazine and the video advertisers to publish anything promoting this method of instruction.

-MB


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## Turner

In the past I have used Mr. Newman's research as 'proof' of my point of view, but I do agree that it is a shoddy study. At one time I was a member of Dragon Kenpo because I really loved the concept of what it stood for, but I never had a very high opinion of the actual art. When I think of Kenpo I think of sophistication and Dragon Kenpo is simply not very sophisticated. (If you'd like to see the techniques and my analysis of them, please visit the forum at www.idka.org). The Dragon Kenpo study on focused on the 'how,' or the mechanics of a technique... just like the over all Dragon Kenpo course... providing no insight as to the 'why." or the principles and theories behind the techniques.

Is that bad? Well, I've studied many martial arts up to the Black Belt level and in my experience ONLY Kenpo and Brazilian Jujitsu teach the actual 'why' of a technique. I still consider it bad, but I think that the Dragon Kenpo study might be a fair example of the normal school. Problem is, I'm not interested in normal schools. I'm interested in learning and teaching people both 'how' and 'why.' I'm naturally disposed to being both the watch maker and the ironworker and not just the ironworker like many martial arts are. I do think that a person can learn both the 'how' and 'why' of a technique through distance learning if such a program was developed. I don't have proof of that and I would love to be able to put together my own study to see if my instincts are right. I personally think that IF a student is really serious about learning the martial arts, it doesn't matter whether it is in person or via distance. Distance is just going to take a little more honor and a little more self motivation than having that good ole family feel of the Dojo to keep you coming back. The type of student that would work through the difficulties of a distance learning program is probably very rare and so the distance courses that would actually work don't have many students. Instead you get people going after the easy courses like Dragon Kenpo or Chief Adrian's. Instant Black Belt.

Yeah, I got my Black Belt through Dragon Kenpo. I still can't stand wearing it even though my Black Belt was validated by my Tang Soo Do instructor and my Shoriniji Kempo instructor (who actually asked me to take over for him and teach my art when personal problems forced him to step down). I love to teach, but I've decided to start over in Kenpo. It's hard because the town where I'm at has been begging me to start teaching, but I want to learn and teach EPAK and won't until I'm able to.
I have 50 students lined up to come learn with me and I've gotten messages of people wanting to travel 2 hours just to study under me. It has been my dream since I was 11 to teach martial arts full time and it is so very difficult to humble myself and start all over 'with an empty cup,' knowing that I could have that dream right now if I just compromised on my ethics and opened up a school... but Instead it may take me five to ten more years to get my Third Degree Black Belt and by then they'll have forgotten. Yet one has to be honorable. You have to do the honorable thing no matter what the concequences and that attitude is an absolute MUST for learning via distance. There are so many short cuts that you can take, so many ways that you can cheat... But if you refuse to give into those temptations and approach the study of the martial arts like a personal student would... I believe that you can progress at the same level as a personal student.


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## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Why would such an esteemed journal as Black Belt Magazine (tongue in cheek), promote articles regarding distance learning?  Hmm... let's think about it.  Can you say "Advertising Revenue?"  I knew that you could.*



OK, I'll chime in.

Around 1995 when Mr. Duffy and I were looking at doing some belt tapes and I actually did a final project in college budgeting, scheduling and researching this, I got ad rates from Black Belt magazine and their sister publications.

At this time the IKC came out with or had just come out with their Full Page Ad "Attention Independent Kenpo Practicioners" which later changed to "Attention Independent Karate Practicioners" or something like it.

After I wrote everything up, we were either told by them or we noticed in their policies that we could not advertise Video Instructional/Rank Advancement material and we fell into this category.

So there is an example of when a full page ad was running even though it directly contradicted their advertising policies.  I'm sure they later went on to revise that policy because it was not long before Rick Fowler, Larry Tatum, and Al Farnsworth all had ads in Black Belt for instructional videos.

We did not pursue the issue with them or make the videos after all.  But if I had to I might be able to find a copy of their guidelines or even a whole magazine to offer as evidence of this "quandry."


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## warriorsage

Being an IKCA video black belt myself, I thought I owed it to them to post some ideas on this.

I consider myself to be a fairly talented martial artist. Some days I probably think too highly of my skills, while ohter times I'm humbled by the skills of others and realize how far I really have to go. To me this is a good place to be and sometimes I go back and forth with my self-appraisal on the same day. 

I spent a little over three years training in the standard fashion, in a dojo (dojang), but eventually I became disillusioned with my fighting skills and came to the conclusion that for some people the choice of the art does make a difference. At that point I decided upon kenpo (I'd been researching it for nearly a year) & I went with the IKCA despite my skepticism, mainly because there were no kenpo schools locally that actually taught kenpo. I was pleased with my choice then and now. 

The IKCA gave me a strong foundation in basics, and the sense to appreciate how these basics make for strong techniques, regardless of the number. I consider myself lucky to get such a strong initiation into kenpo. Since then, or concurrently, I've trained part time at an ex-AKKI affiliated school and have been working with Clyde, the "armpit with eyes."

I've been exposed to different methodologies and skills, and I see other options for my kenpo future. Sometimes I've been overwhelmed by the sophistication and the intricacies of this art, but at no time have I felt embarassed or completely outclassed simply because I was a video student.

Let me end this epic by stating this: I've seen my share of video students who don't measure up to my high standards, but I've seen just as many students from in-house instruction that need just as much work. I could spend hours discussing some of the merits video training has over traditional mthods, but I think those that would understand it, already do and those who don't, never will. I wouldn't trade my IKCA experience for anything, and I'm just as happy with my exposure to EPAK.

Salute


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## arnisador

Let me be clear that I was being critical of the Black Belt article that uses the veneer of science to support distance education, not of distance education itself.

Clearly there's a place for distance education. One of my academic colleagues once pointed out that those in academia who criticize learning remotely should recall that the oldest form of mass distance education is the book, which has a revered history.

There's an important distinction btweeen _learning_ from a video, which is clearly possible, and achieving rank from someone who can't feel you hit. It's the latter that bothers me. Learning from a video/DVD? Certainly, especially learning useful tidbits here and there--that's done all the time. I wish I could afford all those grappling videos to pick up some hints!

I believe at this point I could take video lessons in certain arts and learn the material reasonably well. Absolutely, it would improve my skills if I worked at it. I wouldn't want to see a complete beginner do it in most cases.

But I think ranking must be done in-person. It's the only way to see who can rock and who can't.


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## Michael Billings

Video as an adjunct to your training is fine.  You have a skill set from another Art, I bet it translates over fine.  If you go bang with Clyde occassionally, you really know how your skill set stands up and can clearly differentiate what comes from the video, and what you brought to the table, then you are a much better judge of "distance learning" than I.  Sometimes it is all you have, but I admire you for "putting yourself out there" and banging with Kenpo guys who do it every day with live partners.  

Nothing is wrong with "distance learning" per se, rather it is the $995 Black Belt I object to, and a false sense of security you get when you graduate from this type of program.  Once again reference my earlier post with the Black Belt Pledge.

Oss
-MB


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## Kenpomachine

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> *but Instead it may take me five to ten more years to get my Third Degree Black Belt and by then they'll have forgotten.
> *



Why do you have to wait for third degree black to begin teaching?

I read somewhere that Ed Parker began teaching before getting his black belt, as well as many others not as talented as him.


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## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by warriorsage _
> *Being an IKCA video black belt myself, I thought I owed it to them to post some ideas on this.
> 
> I consider myself to be a fairly talented martial artist. Some days I probably think too highly of my skills, while ohter times I'm humbled by the skills of others and realize how far I really have to go. To me this is a good place to be and sometimes I go back and forth with my self-appraisal on the same day.
> 
> I spent a little over three years training in the standard fashion, in a dojo (dojang), but eventually I became disillusioned with my fighting skills and came to the conclusion that for some people the choice of the art does make a difference. At that point I decided upon kenpo (I'd been researching it for nearly a year) & I went with the IKCA despite my skepticism, mainly because there were no kenpo schools locally that actually taught kenpo. I was pleased with my choice then and now.
> 
> The IKCA gave me a strong foundation in basics, and the sense to appreciate how these basics make for strong techniques, regardless of the number. I consider myself lucky to get such a strong initiation into kenpo. Since then, or concurrently, I've trained part time at an ex-AKKI affiliated school and have been working with Clyde, the "armpit with eyes."
> 
> I've been exposed to different methodologies and skills, and I see other options for my kenpo future. Sometimes I've been overwhelmed by the sophistication and the intricacies of this art, but at no time have I felt embarassed or completely outclassed simply because I was a video student.
> 
> Let me end this epic by stating this: I've seen my share of video students who don't measure up to my high standards, but I've seen just as many students from in-house instruction that need just as much work. I could spend hours discussing some of the merits video training has over traditional mthods, but I think those that would understand it, already do and those who don't, never will. I wouldn't trade my IKCA experience for anything, and I'm just as happy with my exposure to EPAK.
> 
> Salute *



Ron, you have a natural talent, all I've done is facilitate bringing those natural talents to the surface, and quite well I might add.   I constantly brag about you to others and will continue to do so.   You have a gift and you're making the best of it, keep up the good work and I'll talk at you soon.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Turner

> Why do you have to wait for third degree black to begin teaching?



  Perhaps Kenpo is different because there is such a shortage of Kenpo black belts, just like there is a shortage of BJJ black belts (where the average instructor in my area is purple belt), but in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt.


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## jeffkyle

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> *Perhaps Kenpo is different because there is such a shortage of Kenpo black belts, just like there is a shortage of BJJ black belts (where the average instructor in my area is purple belt), but in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt. *



I think some people use that as a way to keep people returning and bringing in the money for as long as possible.


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## molson

I think everyone agrees to some extent that  using video can be beneficial, but paying $995 to buy a black belt on an honor system just isn't right.   I know myself that I had to bust my butt for many years too get to wear a black belt.  I've spoken with the gentleman in question when I moved to Dallas. As soon as I saw the ads in BB I new it wasn't for me, as well as some other things.  I am always looking for new tapes to enhance my training as well as various web sites such as Mr. Billings.


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## Doc

There is no shortage of kenpo black belts at any level. In fact there are too many. The 3rd degree teaching requirement was and is a business consideration to keep blacks in the school as free labor as long as possible. Does it have validity in reality for teachers to develop skills? Of course it does, but considering the quality of the product most schools produce, it is a moot point and far down on the consideration list. Most regardless of rank would have difficulty teaching my Orange belts night in and night out how to execute basics and techniques would really be a stretch.


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## thesensei

> _Originally posted by Turner _
> *... in most martial arts that I've studied you weren't considered qualified to teach or to promote anyone until you had your 3rd degree black belt. *



In many schools that is the case.  I have trained in several schools.  Among them are 2 TKD dojangs, and 1 American karate schools.  In all three of those schools, the majority of their black belts were not qualified to teach until 3rd degree black.  They tended to be rather sloppy, and lacked the knowledge of why they did things the way they did.  They seemed to be unable to effectively express and teach the things they were doing.  

On the other hand, kenpo is generally not "most martial arts."  I trained in chinese kenpo (1960's Parker curriculum) for 3 years with my original instructor before I earned my brown belt.  During that time, he taught me not only how to DO, but also how to TEACH.  He had me teach classes and individuals.  When I received my brown belt, one of the "privileges" that came along with it was the permission and blessing from my instructor to teach unsupervised, and personally rank my students up to two ranks below myself (blue belt).  When I had to move to go to college, I began teaching children at a local YMCA.  I taught and graded them myself, all with my instructor's approval, though he was not there to see the students.  He knew what he had taught me, and trusted that I was teaching the same thing to my students.

To summarize, who cares what belt you wear?  The key is that you must have an understanding of HOW and WHY, and you must be able to effectively communicate those principles.

Salute,
Jeremiah


----------



## arnisador

http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/distance learning.htm


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/distance learning.htm *



Dude,

I wanted to post that.
Their ring caught my eye in the ad.
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/rings.htm


----------



## Goldendragon7

> _Originally posted by cdhall _*
> The ring caught my eye in the ad.
> *



I think you ought to order one!


----------



## arnisador

Yes, the rings are what caught my eye too! Well, that's successful advertising--I read the ad, noted the URL, and checked the link.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Dude,
> 
> I wanted to post that.
> Their ring caught my eye in the ad.
> http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/rings.htm *


A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."  

It is a myth in the very conceptual kenpo that you can learn to be a "warrior" and a scholar at the same time. You cannot. It is an impossibility. Quality time is an element that cannot be circumvented. Many think they are both, and you can tell that from the posts that permeate the forums from
individuals who have been "around" the arts for a decade or so, and are now "scholarly" experts who think thay have all the answers and full cups.


----------



## CoolKempoDude

black belt home is getting ridiculous every day. To the point, it is really unacceptable


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Goldendragon7 _
> *I think you ought to order one!
> 
> *



OK.  OK.  

The ring caught my eye which was successful advertising like Arnisador said.
I thought they might be selling the Perfect Weapon Ring.  I know someone does sell it.

But I spent an unHoly amount of money to obtain my College Ring and it is gold and has a diamond and I don't really want a "Kenpo Ring."

However I have posted on some other thread (maybe it was this one) that giving and receiving contact can not be transmitted by video.  And as Doc is alluding to, without contact it is nearly impossible to learn how to hit and be hit effectively.

So just in case anyone thought otherwise, I posted to join in the Tomato throw at the "Black Belt Video" industry and I don't think you can come up this way from scratch and I don't want a ring to prove that I did.
 

Do  they even mention who is teaching?
It looks like they make certificates as well.
http://www.darkdragonkenpo.com/certificates.htm

And it looks like the artist is very fond of the Tiger that Ed Parker, Jr. used on the AKSC Certificate as well. http://www.aksc.org/extassets/cert.pdf


Hmmm.


----------



## MartialArtsGuy

Doc said

A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how." 

I say

Yes yes yes, how true this is. There comes a time when you just have to get on the mat and learn how. This exposes so much truth. 

For example: It's one thing to formulate a conceptual answer to what-if situation,  but to let your body feel the truth in actuall action can verify whether or not your "conceptual solution" was right  or not. 

I have noticed there seems to be alot of debate about what would or would not work.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how." *



This has often been my experience. On the other hand you have an art like Modern Arnis with very little structure. We haven't even a language to begin analyzing with and that's a problem for us (that we're trying to deal with, in part by borrowing from the Kenpo model).

Early on in my martial arts career, as a karateka, I attended a tournament and shut out a kenpoka with longer time training than me. After I beat him 3-0 he came to find me and explained what I had been doing wrong--this technique violated this principle, etc. He may have been right, of course, but it wasn't really a good time to make his point. He would have been better off practicing. That's the over-intellectualizing.

Another time a pair of Kenpoka explained an elbow to the face where you sandwich the face between the palm of one hand and the elbow of the other. Everyone knows this technique, but they had a few tips that were helpful and a different way of looking at it. That was good and there's still one thing I gained from that discussion that I carry with me. Then they started arguing over whether this technique counted as 7 hits (one for each finger on the open hand, plus the elbow making contact, plus the elbow sliding across the face as it leaves contact) or 8 hits (by also counting the center of the palm on the open hand). They were very serious and Mr. Parker's name was cited by both to buttress their arguments. I found it...not even pedantic, but just silly. Their analysis was helpful to a point--helpful to them and helpful to me--and I saw that, but then they seemed to get stuck in Overdrive.

A discussion board is a great place for these intellectual discussions to emerge however!


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by MartialArtsGuy _
> *Doc said
> 
> A major problem with kenpo is it has been over intellectualized. Students are too busy trying to learn "why" when they should be learning "how."
> 
> I say
> 
> Yes yes yes, how true this is. There comes a time when you just have to get on the mat and learn how. This exposes so much truth.
> 
> For example: It's one thing to formulate a conceptual answer to what-if situation,  but to let your body feel the truth in actuall action can verify whether or not your "conceptual solution" was right  or not.
> 
> I have noticed there seems to be alot of debate about what would or would not work. *



Yes sir, as well as how a body will or will not react. Part of that debate fueled the coining of a term; "Hypothetical Kenpo."  I spent quite a bit of energy breaking down what  actually constitutes "bending over" and it was dificult for some to understand what it is and what causes it. All of this debate simply tellms me how much people don't really know about specific applications. "General knowledge always produces general results." - Ed Parker.


----------



## bdparsons

for what they're worth.

Video training is definitely a viable alternative, but only when certain things are in place:

Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.

Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?

Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.

Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.

Easy-no. Possible-yes.

I think those involved in legitimate video training programs would tell you that studying from an instructor face-to-face is the optimum situation. Unfortunately, not everyone is in an optimum situation. Video training is only one of a number of options.

The quality of the student at any given stage depends on a number of factors:

The quality of instruction.-Everythng begins with the teacher.

The committment of the student.-Self motivation is one of the biggest hurdles the student has to overcome. Committement to a rigorous workout schedule is essential if the student wants to excel.

The ability of the student to self-correct.-This is a skill that is easier for some than others. This is where the accountability factor kicks in. It's the responsibility of the instructor to observe and make sure the corrections are being made.

The realism of the training.-A body to practice on is crucial. We all know everything changes when Kenpo is practiced on another body. Kenpo done properly in the air is beautiful; Kenpo done properly on a body is devastating.

Are not these factors needed in a face-to-face scenario as well?

Respects,
Bill Parsons


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by bdparsons _
> *for what they're worth.
> 
> Video training is definitely a viable alternative, but only when certain things are in place:
> 
> Credibility-The people you learn from must be legit.
> 
> Affordability-Otherwise what's the point?
> 
> Accessability-You must have the means to ask questions and get clarification when needed.
> 
> Accountablity-Without being held accountable for what you're learning (read: detailed critique and proper testing) then it's probably an exercise in futility.
> 
> Easy-no. Possible-yes.
> 
> I think those involved in legitimate video training programs would tell you that studying from an instructor face-to-face is the optimum situation. Unfortunately, not everyone is in an optimum situation. Video training is only one of a number of options.
> 
> The quality of the student at any given stage depends on a number of factors:
> 
> The quality of instruction.-Everythng begins with the teacher.
> 
> The committment of the student.-Self motivation is one of the biggest hurdles the student has to overcome. Committement to a rigorous workout schedule is essential if the student wants to excel.
> 
> The ability of the student to self-correct.-This is a skill that is easier for some than others. This is where the accountability factor kicks in. It's the responsibility of the instructor to observe and make sure the corrections are being made.
> 
> The realism of the training.-A body to practice on is crucial. We all know everything changes when Kenpo is practiced on another body. Kenpo done properly in the air is beautiful; Kenpo done properly on a body is devastating.
> 
> Are not these factors needed in a face-to-face scenario as well?
> 
> Respects,
> Bill Parsons *



Could you learn to play pro football by video? Well self defense is a lot more complex. If someone learned by video, they didn't learn very much, by my standards.


----------



## Bill Lear

> *Originally posted by Doc *
> _Could you learn to play pro football by video? Well self defense is a lot more complex. If someone learned by video, they didn't learn very much, by my standards. _



*I don't want to stir up any problems, or cause any flame wars, but I do have a couple of questions for you in relation to this topic.

The Kenpo Net has a Cd Rom of yours on sale in their Internet Mall.

Here is the description of the product that they have on their Web Site:* 

_"This CD is the first in the series from the Martial Science University Distance Learning program and features the Kenpo creed and salutation, what Sub-Level 4 is, and the yellow belt curriculum (using timing and breathing signatures as well), as well as Short Form 1, Blocking Set 1, and Kicking Set 1. Full video and pictures of everything's execution plus what each teaches. Do allow 2-4 weeks for delivery of this item."_

*Doc,

Are you offering a distance-training program or is the description of your product on the Kenpo Net Internet Mall wrong? Is someone capable of meeting your standards to advance in rank from studying from this Cd Rom alone or is it simply meant as a supplement for your students that train in a studio?*


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by Bill Lear _
> * Doc,
> 
> Are you offering a distance-training program or is the description of your product on the wrong? Is someone capable of meeting your standards to advance in rank from studying from this Cd Rom alone or is it simply meant as a supplement for your students that train in a studio? *


Neither. The description is accurate but it is offered as an informational educational reference only for those who may be interested in what our "basic" technique execution looks like. It is made clear we do not offer any distance learning *rank granting or advancement * mechanism of any kind under any circumstances. No exceptions. Even so, many people wanted it anyway for various reasons we they found out we had done it. I've turned down many who wanted to obtain SL-4 certifications at a distance. I have stacks of mail from the U.S. and Europe, but simply it is not possible to learn any way but hands on under a competent teacher, and I refuse to compromise the integrity of the information entrusted to me - period! 

My students have no need for it because they have instructors, and no one in house has ever purchased it nor been encouraged to do so.

It was created as a thesis project by Ryan Angell for his associate professor accreditation, and he subsequently received requests for it and handled its sale without my participation. It is a simple and very basic overview of a small portion of the beginning course. Those who have purchased it have really liked it and thought it was well worth the cost. Even so, I informed Mr. Angell that I would not authorize any additional CD-Rom media for sale at this time.

You can't learn football or any physical interactive competitive activity without a coach or teacher. Of course that doesn't mean some won't give someone a belt if they buy enough videos and send in enough money. They can ask all the questions they want and even get together a couple times a year with someone who is supposed know what their doing. As an introduction to an activity for the curious, it may be fine, but they couldn't get a yellow belt from me by video. They wouldn't even know what they were looking at.  The nuances of human movement don't work that way, at least for the level of what I teach. My bar is high, and uncompromising and my students are screened to meet standards that ensure success. All others will find a kenpo studio somewhere that will teach at the level where they fit.


----------



## bdparsons

would be to remove the reference to the "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" from your web site. If you are so emphatically against the practice then this reference is misleading at best, deceptive at worst. You can't have it both ways.

Bill Parsons


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by bdparsons _
> *If you are so emphatically against the practice then this reference is misleading at best, deceptive at worst. You can't have it both ways.
> *


We don't, nor are we attempting to have it "both ways." Anyone who contacts us is told *emphatically* we DO NOT offer ranking without regular class attendance and participation. Those who accept the "educational / information only" provision purchase tapes and videos for personal reasons, and I'm sure do "learn" something, but that is a personal choice. I'm told there have been "no complaints." YOUR assertion we are trying to have it both ways because we don't offer rank, but will sell a video or CD to someone who want's it, is rediculous.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> We don't, nor are we attempting to have it "both ways." Anyone who contacts us is told *emphatically* we DO NOT offer ranking without regular class attendance and participation.


Doc:
I think it is reasonable for Mr. Parsons to have equated "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" with "Martial Science University Distance RANKING Program" _Particularly_ in the context of this thread.



> Those who accept the "educational / information only" provision purchase tapes and videos for personal reasons, and I'm sure do "learn" something, but that is a personal choice.


I take it from this that you are trying to distinguish _Distance Learning_ from _Distance Ranking_.  I see your point.  While I agreed with Mr. Parsons on his post I now see the difference you are apparently trying to make and I can accept that. 



> I'm told there have been "no complaints." YOUR assertion we are trying to have it both ways because we don't offer rank, but will sell a video or CD to someone who want's it, is rediculous.


Of course the assertion that you have been told that there have been "no complaints" is irrelevant, but again I agree with your distinction and I will start using Dictionary.com more myself if you promise to quit spelling "rediculous."


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rediculous
No entry found for rediculous.

Did you mean ridiculous?
ri·dic·u·lous adj. 

Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. See Synonyms at foolish.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From Latin rdiculus, laughable, from rdre, to laugh.]
:asian:


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *
> It was created as a thesis project by Ryan Angell for his associate professor accreditation,
> *



perhaps, his thesis was about promoting your SL4 everywhere???


----------



## bdparsons

Your assumption that my assertion of both ways means awarding rank is incorrect.

In reading your comments in this thread and other threads on this forum Ive come to the conclusion that you feel learning martial arts (particularly Kenpo, and more specifically your take on Kenpo) via an electronic medium is impossible. Is this a correct summation of your position?

If not, forgive me and enlighten me.

If so, then that is where I feel you trying to have it both ways. What I am hearing is You cant learn anything worth knowing in the martial arts while watching your TV or computer, but ask me about the Martial Science University Distance Learning Program and well tell you we dont have one. In sales thats called a bait-and-switch. If  Im wrong, fill me in, please!

A few more questions, please. 1) Do you feel its irresponsible of people to put out tapes/DVDs offering distance learning (that may or may not include ranking)?  2) Whats your take on the integrity of such individuals?  3) Are they just scam artists deceiving people into believing that they know something they really dont?

Bill Parsons


----------



## arnisador

I enjoy seeing tapes of arts I don't practice. I watched a ton of Systema videos one night at Mr. Hartman's. I can't learn Systema, but I might take away an idea or two to try through Modern Arnis. All the more so when what I'm watching is a tape of an FMA. An instructional tape won't teach me that system but may give me an idea to try, or a new way of explaining something.

I'm looking to buy a snake style kung fu video/DVD just because I am curious about it. (Pity it isn't convenient to rent these at Blockbuster.) I do have some Modern Arnis videos/DVDs which serve as refreshers and checks.

So, I can easily see where having a video/DVD of the systme available makes sense. Maybe people are curious; maybe it'll draw them in; maybe it's an easy way to answer questions. Some people insist that distance training is their only option. I don't care to argue with them.

I must agree that labeling it "Distance Learning" rather than simply "Instructional Video" seems slightly out of sync with the message being given here, yet I also see that the language is heading that way in all sorts of areas (not just the martial arts).


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Doc:
> I think it is reasonable for Mr. Parsons to have equated "Martial Science University Distance Learning Program" with "Martial Science University Distance RANKING Program" Particularly in the context of this thread.*


*

Except the wording has nothing to do with this thread, particularly AFTER an explanation of intent, "having it both ways" is an inappropriate suggestion.




			I take it from this that you are trying to distinguish Distance Learning from Distance Ranking.  I see your point.  While I agreed with Mr. Parsons on his post I now see the difference you are apparently trying to make and I can accept that. 


I will start using Dictionary.com more myself if you promise to quit spelling "rediculous."


http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=rediculous
No entry found for rediculous.

Did you mean ridiculous?
ri·dic·u·lous adj. 

Deserving or inspiring ridicule; absurd, preposterous, or silly. See Synonyms at foolish.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
[From Latin rdiculus, laughable, from rdre, to laugh.]
:asian:
		
Click to expand...

*
OK Buddy, I know you don't want me to start checking your posts for spelling, grammar, and content. I just answer posts, sometimes from a laptop half sleepy from work while on the go. I don't spell check and trust that I will never be so far off that the core of what I am saying will be lost due to a misplaced letter or two. You're being "rediculous" and "abserd" with a dash of preposterous. Additionally in some of my research I have come across a study that under the circumstances you may find interesting.

it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.

Spell check that Buddy.


----------



## Randy Strausbaugh

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
> 
> Spell check that Buddy.  *


:rofl:  Good point!

Also-
enough - gh pronounced "f"
women - o pronounced "i"
attention - ti pronounced "sh"

Therefore - ghoti is pronounced "fish".
Ain't English grand?


----------



## Shiatsu

I don't see the big fuss. Doc won't give rank out over videos which is a good move.  Thyen others will.  It isn't that complicated folks.:soapbox:


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Except the wording has nothing to do with this thread, particularly AFTER an explanation of intent, "having it both ways" is an inappropriate suggestion.
> 
> 
> 
> OK Buddy, I know you don't want me to start checking your posts for spelling, grammar, and content. I just answer posts, sometimes from a laptop half sleepy from work while on the go. I don't spell check and trust that I will never be so far off that the core of what I am saying will be lost due to a misplaced letter or two. You're being "rediculous" and "abserd" with a dash of preposterous. Additionally in some of my research I have come across a study that under the circumstances you may find interesting.
> 
> it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
> 
> Spell check that Buddy.  *



OK. Doc.  I wasn't trying to pick on you too much.  But you always spell "rediculous" that way.

I thought I was pretty clear about my understanding of this issue as well.  I agree with your position but I see how Mr. Parsons, and especially a casual reader could have drawn his conclusion.

For what it is worth, I have found that the more a Thread becomes a Soap Opera, the less effective it is.

I didn't see where you explained your intent prior to his post, but I confess I may have missed that.  I do try to treat threads as independent entities so I hope you were not referring to something that happened in another thread.

And of course, the fact that you can spell poorly and still communicate your point does not negate the need for spelling properly.  By this logic, "Motion Kenpo" as a sloppy execution of "SL4" would still get it's point across as well.

I took some liberties teasing you about spelling because you make such strong cases for precision in Kenpo and SL4 and because you are a Doctor.  I didn't mean to be cruel and I see now that I am crossing over the line, but I am only trying to apply logic.  I am not insulting you personally.  Anyone can make a mistake or a spelling error an in my own post I admitted as much when I said I'd use Dictionary.com myself and I just did use to check "independent" for whatever that is worth.

I am not trying to be disrespectful, and this may even be my last post on this board, but I don't see the logic of arguing that SL4 can not be done "imprecisely" but it is OK to only spell a word correctly relative to the first and last letter.

Equation Formula, Alphabetic and Numeric Rearrangement Principles (if I got that right) notwithstanding of course.

I'm going to say in advance that I think I may have failed in my effort to politely disagree with you on some of this, Doc, but I hope not.
:asian:


----------



## Seig

This seems to be getting a bit heated.  Everyone count to 10 or as high as you can if it isn't that high.  I usually get to 6 before I get stuck.  Let's calm down, quit attacking people and get it back on topic.  Doc has a tape, I can't comment on it, I haven't seen it.  Mr. Tatum has tapes, I have seen them, I can comment.  What I have seen of those makes them seem to be a very good reference.  As someone else pointed out, if nothing else, I can draw ideas from them.  My own instructor has sent me video of things he tried to explain that I was having trouble with.  When we got together, we went over them again.  I personally feel that an unskilled martial artist cannot learn an art by watching a video.  I feel that a skilled martial artist or instructor can get new ideas and new insights from videos.  In reality, the videos are a good reference.  They are not a substitute for a teacher.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *OK. Doc.  I wasn't trying to pick on you too much.  But you always spell "rediculous" that way.
> 
> I thought I was pretty clear about my understanding of this issue as well.  I agree with your position but I see how Mr. Parsons, and especially a casual reader could have drawn his conclusion.
> 
> For what it is worth, I have found that the more a Thread becomes a Soap Opera, the less effective it is.
> 
> I didn't see where you explained your intent prior to his post, but I confess I may have missed that.  I do try to treat threads as independent entities so I hope you were not referring to something that happened in another thread.
> 
> And of course, the fact that you can spell poorly and still communicate your point does not negate the need for spelling properly.  By this logic, "Motion Kenpo" as a sloppy execution of "SL4" would still get it's point across as well.
> 
> I took some liberties teasing you about spelling because you make such strong cases for precision in Kenpo and SL4 and because you are a Doctor.  I didn't mean to be cruel and I see now that I am crossing over the line, but I am only trying to apply logic.  I am not insulting you personally.  Anyone can make a mistake or a spelling error an in my own post I admitted as much when I said I'd use Dictionary.com myself and I just did use to check "independent" for whatever that is worth.
> 
> I am not trying to be disrespectful, and this may even be my last post on this board, but I don't see the logic of arguing that SL4 can not be done "imprecisely" but it is OK to only spell a word correctly relative to the first and last letter.
> 
> Equation Formula, Alphabetic and Numeric Rearrangement Principles (if I got that right) notwithstanding of course.
> 
> I'm going to say in advance that I think I may have failed in my effort to politely disagree with you on some of this, Doc, but I hope not.
> :asian: *


That's why I hate the internet. Nobody can tell when you're joking. I hoped the happy winking face would let you know however.
Doug as much as we have communicated, you should know better. Stop being "rediculous." 

No Mr. moderator, it is not getting heated, you are simply misreading a "rediculous" situation.


----------



## Shiatsu

:rofl: :rofl:


----------



## Michael Billings

Sent you an email re: this and having Prof. Joe Lansdale in for a seminar later this month.

I hope everyone takes this exchange with a touch of salt.  Maybe some pepper, garlic, & limes for the beer.

-Michael


----------



## cdhall

Doc:

Thanks.  As you allude to, even a "happy winking face" can be misread over the internet where almost all the non-verbal elements of human interpersonal communication are missing.

Much like contact is missing from video instruction.
 
How's that for steering back on topic?
 

And I agree with Doc again, I think Seig over reacted.  I was nervous that it took me 910 posts to draw a Moderator Warning.  I'm glad that both Doc and I agree there is no need for one.

By the same token, I much prefer Seig to jump the gun in favor of caution so let me be clear that while I don't think we needed a warning, I'm glad he gave one when he thought we needed one.  I hope that makes sense.

This thread now has proved to me another example of the Excellence of MartialTalk regarding the level of contact one can have with knowledgeable "seniors," the quality of the information available, how it is organized and how much care is given to keeping everything civil.

Thanks to everyone.  No kidding.  This could have gotten out of hand, but instead it went very well.  Thanks Doc.  I was going to email you but I wanted to be sure to make a good case in public so people could see me approach, get into, and hopefully get out of hot water. I will probably email you now.

And you too, Mr. Billings. Thanks.

P.S. Doc.  My Mom and Grandfather used to use the word "Buddy" when they argued and although I tried not to let that push any buttons, it may have and may have contributed to me misreading or ignoring the "winking face."
:asian:


----------



## Nightingale

its not a mod warning unless its phrased like so:


MOD WARNING:

<text of warning>

<name of mod>
MT MODERATOR

otherwise, its just a user making a comment.  we try to make it clear when we're being official.


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *Doc:
> My Mom and Grandfather used to use the word "Buddy" when they argued and although I tried not to let that push any buttons, it may have and may have contributed to me misreading or ignoring the "winking face."
> :asian: *


Watch it Buddy.


----------



## ProfessorKenpo

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Watch it Buddy. *



Do you  enjoy pushing others' rage buttons?

Clyde


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *Watch it Buddy. *



I take it that  is the response you are looking for?
:shrug:

We are definitely off topic now.


----------



## cdhall

> _Originally posted by Nightingale _
> *its not a mod warning unless its phrased like so:
> 
> 
> MOD WARNING:
> 
> <text of warning>
> 
> <name of mod>
> MT MODERATOR
> 
> otherwise, its just a user making a comment.  we try to make it clear when we're being official. *



Thanks Nightingale.

Nevertheless, even though it was not any kind of official action, I do appreciate that Seig jumped.
:asian:


----------



## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *What kind of egits send off for this rubbish!? The only people they're kidding are themselves, surely you'd have to be pretty dim to be taken in by it?
> 
> If they want a black belt that bad they should just go buy one for two quid in a martial arts shop, it'd be less of a rip-off than those distance learning courses!
> 
> Ian (black belt grading in 8 weeks, 6.5 years training for it) *


Video training as far as learning the techniques might help someone who can only train with qualified instructor once per month....Like myself....I wouldn't wear or display a Black Belt given to my via mail but I would utilize the tapes for training purposes to keep me refreshed and ready for my next training.  I utilized this method when I was training in Shotokan because I could only go to 2 classes per month because of military obligations.  It helped my to learn the forms much quicker than if I tried to remember them from class to class.  So for my 2 cents video does have it's value and worth...

Respectfully

Beau


----------



## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *
> 
> Nothing is wrong with "distance learning" per se, rather it is the $995 Black Belt I object to, and a false sense of security you get when you graduate from this type of program.  Once again reference my earlier post with the Black Belt Pledge.
> 
> Oss
> -MB *


   I wonder what you think of this programs worth if you use the "optional " testing that Chief does offer? And while I am on the subject, does anyone know about James Ibrao's 5 Forms to Black?  If so anythoughts about that.....


Thank you


----------



## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by cdhall _
> *OK. Doc.  I wasn't trying to pick on you too much.  But you always spell "rediculous" that way.
> 
> ]*


* So how do you spell it?*


----------



## marshallbd

> [  By this logic, "Motion Kenpo" as a sloppy execution of "SL4" would still get it's point across as well.


 So what is this SL4?  Please don't kill me I am very new to Kenpo and I have no Idea what a large number of the terms are....so be kind and share the knowledge!


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by marshallbd _
> * And while I am on the subject, does anyone know about James Ibrao's 5 Forms to Black?  If so anythoughts about that..... *



See:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=650
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5311

or search on 'Ibrao'. A search will also turn up many previous SL-4 discussions!


----------



## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by superdave _
> *When is the kind of stuff gonna stop? This guy is claiming that you can obtain your Blackbelt in American Kenpo is 365 days or less, following his program?
> 
> More watering down Kenpo for a few bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.adrianroman.com *


 Has anyone actually seen his tapes?  The Public Library has a program where they will buy items that are requested for patrons to use.  I just submitted a request for them to get his yellow belt tape.  I'll post a quick review of the tape if they actually buy it....


----------



## CoolKempoDude

after looking at James Ibrao's web site, i don't know what he really teachs.?? kung fu or AK???  

if he doesn't call his art AK or kung fu, what his art is all about ??? i'm looking for a meaning title. 

anybody here knows what he is teaching ?????

thanks


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *after looking at James Ibrao's web site, i don't know what he really teachs.?? kung fu or AK???
> 
> if he doesn't call his art AK or kung fu, what his art is all about ??? i'm looking for a meaning title.
> 
> anybody here knows what he is teaching ?????
> 
> thanks *



James Ibrao Stuff!


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *James Ibrao Stuff! *



 I don't know all the arts in the world. Maybe, he is the FIRST to name his ART with his REAL name. ?????

In his front page, James Ibrao- FIRST Ed parker's black belt. In the second page- he looks like a kung fu man. If you know what i'm saying 

oh boy, your AK people don't looke like kung fu men EXCEPT him, LOL.

i'm REALLY confused when i visit his web site because i don't know what he is REALLY teaching. Thank you for your answer, DOC.

he surely put a lot of stuffs in "James Ibrao stuff". I'm sure it is *good*


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *I don't know all the arts in the world. Maybe, he is the FIRST to name his ART with his REAL name. ?????
> 
> In his front page, James Ibrao- FIRST Ed parker's black belt. In the second page- he looks like a kung fu man. If you know what i'm saying
> 
> oh boy, your AK people don't looke like kung fu men EXCEPT him, LOL.
> 
> i'm REALLY confused when i visit his web site because i don't know what he is REALLY teaching. Thank you for your answer, DOC.
> 
> he surely put a lot of stuffs in "James Ibrao stuff". I'm sure it is *good*
> *



Well you know more than me. I have o opinion as to whether it's good or not. I simply don't know. He left Parker after less than a year of study, and he was not Parker's first black belt, but was his second after Charles Beeder.


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> 
> He left Parker after less than a year of study, and he was not Parker's first black belt, but was his second after Charles Beeder. [/B]



His web site states *"  I would study there through 1991 and every day as I walked to the changing room I would see the Great Kenpo Family Tree and on that tree I would see the name of Parkers VERY FIRST Black Belt .............James Ibrao "*

see, Doc???

It is the ONLY reason why I HATE Kempo/kenpo.

:soapbox: :soapbox:


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *His web site states "  I would study there through 1991 and every day as I walked to the changing room I would see the Great Kenpo Family Tree and on that tree I would see the name of Parkers VERY FIRST Black Belt .............James Ibrao "
> 
> see, Doc???
> 
> It is the ONLY reason why I HATE Kempo/kenpo.
> 
> :soapbox: :soapbox:   *



I come from the "no spin zone."  Had he stated he was Parker's first black belt in Southern California, he'd been correct. However Parker's first black was a student from his original class at BYU in Utah as was VERY senior to Ibrao. In fact Beeder began studying with Parker while Parker was still a brown belt, and long before  Parker got out of the service and opened a school in Pasadena.

Hell, everybody studied with Parker and he taught everybody the secret material, and everybody was with him as a student until he died, (even me). The problem is he taught everybody DIFFERENT secret stuiff, and some of it is better than others. :rofl:


----------



## marshallbd

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *after looking at James Ibrao's web site, i don't know what he really teachs.?? kung fu or AK???
> 
> if he doesn't call his art AK or kung fu, what his art is all about ??? i'm looking for a meaning title.
> 
> anybody here knows what he is teaching ?????
> 
> thanks *


 He calls it Jun Bao.


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *He left Parker after less than a year of study*



But he earned a black belt in that short period? Had he studied EPAK under another one of Ed Parker's students before going to study at the source?


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by arnisador _
> *But he earned a black belt in that short period? *


*

Yes.




			Had he studied EPAK under another one of Ed Parker's students before going to study at the source?
		
Click to expand...


No.

During that time period and previous, it was not unusual for Americans to receive black belts in less than a year of study in this country and especially in the military while stationed overseas. This accounts for the basis of most concepts of American Arts being simple "kick punch" based with mass competition and sparring being the measure of knowledge and skill. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and other well known Americans all received black belts in less than a year while their Asian counterpoints took many years to obtain the same status. 

True knowledge was, and is still not as readily available to most Westerners and even Easterners as some would like to think. At some point all true American Masters of the era spent significant time with Chinese, Filipino, and Indonesians sources to acquire knowledge and credibility with those same non Americans after previously receiving "ranking" of dubious value.

Parker, even though having received a black belt, chose to begin serious study with the Chinese like Ark Wong, Lao Bun, James Woo, Jimmy Woo, etc. 

My point is, modern "ranking" was essentially created by the Japanese, and has always been nebulous at best. It fits perfectly with the cultural and business climate of Americans and has never been indicative of significant knowledge beyond superficial "kick punch" skills, especially in this country at the time and now, even in source Asian countries - and these days it doesn't even mean that. After all there are many schools now that don't "allow" sparing or physical contact for liability reasons.

Today everyone is a black belt and individuals can only be judged by their skill and knowledge from an individual perspective. Anybody can be anything and they have self created "organizations" to back up their claims, or point to lineage as if it means something. It doesn't. Let's face it, everybody can't be a top student. I went to several colleges and saw idiots who followed the curriculum and got degrees. The degree didn't make them brilliant, it only meant they did what was asked of them. 

However, true Martial Science has always been, and will continue to be out of reach of the masses, just as it was intended.*


----------



## arnisador

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *During that time period and previous, it was not unusual for Americans to receive black belts in less than a year of study in this country and especially in the military while stationed overseas.  *



OK, that puts it in context for me. I am familiar with teh stories of people like Joe Lewis and that generally the servicemen of the 1950s earned their black belts in 1-2 years, typically.


----------



## CoolKempoDude

> _Originally posted by Doc _
> *
> However, true Martial Science has always been, and will continue to be out of reach of the masses, just as it was intended. *



your martial science university functions like other universities ??? 
if it is different, how so??

 your school opens 6 days/week and from 8am to 11 pm????

thanks


----------



## Doc

> _Originally posted by CoolKempoDude _
> *your martial science university functions like other universities ???
> if it is different, how so??
> 
> your school opens 6 days/week and from 8am to 11 pm????
> 
> thanks *



The curriculum is presented as private university courses and labs, with selected student body primarily of government law enforcement, and business professionals. Not open to the public.


----------



## marshallbd

SO HAS ANYONE SEEN THE CONTENT OF MR IBRAO"S 5 FORMS TO BLACK PROGRAM YET? IF SO, DO TELL!!! PLEASE!!!! :asian:


----------



## jrackley

superdave,
Grandmaster Adrian Roman is my personal Kenpo teacher. He is one of the finest martial artist that i know and i know many.If you have no self discipline and if you are the type of person that has to be treated like a child then this program is not for you.Please do not disrespect others.Grandmaster,do you understand what that means to be a GRANDMASTER?This is not a watered down program but you do have to be self motivated.If your not, then why do you practice martial arts.I guess the only place you can worship GOD is in church, i guess the only place you can run is on a track and the only way you can lift weights is in a fancy health club.Please do not be so narrow minded.If you have never tasted green beans, you have no right to give your opinion on them.


----------



## jrackley

Grandmaster Adrian Roman is my personal Kenpo teacher.He trains my wife and i. We study by video in our personal studio and we have a once a week private lesson at Chiefs studio in Dallas TX.We spent 4 years being treated like a child in a Kung Fu school.I have been with the Chief for almost 2 years and he is a Fantastic martial artist and teacher.He also teaches womans self defense and red warrior.Please do not disrespect him.Unless you know him , your opinion means nothing.


----------



## marshallbd

jrackley said:
			
		

> Grandmaster Adrian Roman is my personal Kenpo teacher.He trains my wife and i. We study by video in our personal studio and we have a once a week private lesson at Chiefs studio in Dallas TX.We spent 4 years being treated like a child in a Kung Fu school.I have been with the Chief for almost 2 years and he is a Fantastic martial artist and teacher.He also teaches womans self defense and red warrior.Please do not disrespect him.Unless you know him , your opinion means nothing.


Do you study American Kenpo, Red Warrior or both...?  I don't think anyone was slammin him personally, but the fact that he is sending the "honorary Black belt" post dated WITH the videos.  No testing involved.....


----------



## jrackley

MJS said:
			
		

> A video is NOT going to teach the fine points that you will get from a good Inst. If you already have a solid background, then yeah, the video might be able to give you a few things, but nothing can take the place of an actual Inst. You see this with every art out there, not only Kenpo. Its really amazing as to what lengths people will go to just to make some extra$$$$. Its really sad to think that people actually spend money on stuff like this and then think that they are actually at Black Belt level.
> 
> Mike


He offers private lessons!!!!! Please do research before quoting.


----------



## jrackley

Michael Billings said:
			
		

> I don't remember the thread, but we have vented about "Chief Adrian Roman" before.
> 
> 
> 
> and
> 
> 
> 
> It never ceases to amaze me:
> 
> 
> Hello Sir,
> We study kenpo with the Chief, yes we test, i was really upset by the way people are giving there opinion with out knowing FACTS.The distant learning program is not for everybody.If you are not self motivated, its not for you, but if you are not self motivated is kenpo for you?Yes the Chief offers private lessons and has a studio in Dallas TX.I have loved martial arts my whole life 39 years .Adrian Romans program is for me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder if he is rich yet? Nuff said.


Hello sir


----------



## jrackley

Doc said:
			
		

> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> No.
> 
> During that time period and previous, it was not unusual for Americans to receive black belts in less than a year of study in this country and especially in the military while stationed overseas. This accounts for the basis of most concepts of American Arts being simple "kick punch" based with mass competition and sparring being the measure of knowledge and skill. Joe Lewis, Chuck Norris, and other well known Americans all received black belts in less than a year while their Asian counterpoints took many years to obtain the same status.
> 
> True knowledge was, and is still not as readily available to most Westerners and even Easterners as some would like to think. At some point all true American Masters of the era spent significant time with Chinese, Filipino, and Indonesians sources to acquire knowledge and credibility with those same non Americans after previously receiving "ranking" of dubious value.
> 
> Parker, even though having received a black belt, chose to begin serious study with the Chinese like Ark Wong, Lao Bun, James Woo, Jimmy Woo, etc.
> 
> My point is, modern "ranking" was essentially created by the Japanese, and has always been nebulous at best. It fits perfectly with the cultural and business climate of Americans and has never been indicative of significant knowledge beyond superficial "kick punch" skills, especially in this country at the time and now, even in source Asian countries - and these days it doesn't even mean that. After all there are many schools now that don't "allow" sparing or physical contact for liability reasons.
> 
> Today everyone is a black belt and individuals can only be judged by their skill and knowledge from an individual perspective. Anybody can be anything and they have self created "organizations" to back up their claims, or point to lineage as if it means something. It doesn't. Let's face it, everybody can't be a top student. I went to several colleges and saw idiots who followed the curriculum and got degrees. The degree didn't make them brilliant, it only meant they did what was asked of them.
> 
> However, true Martial Science has always been, and will continue to be out of reach of the masses, just as it was intended.


many schools will keep you 3 to 5 years and will extend there program so they will keep you as a customer.Do you need to go to the dojo to do jumping jacks and front kicks.How long would it take you to get your black belt if you cut out the junk?


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

jrackley said:
			
		

> He offers private lessons!!!!! Please do research before quoting.


I researched his website thoroughly, painstakingly weeding my way through poorly structured paragraphs, mispelled words, and partially represented ideas, hoping that I wasn't really seeing what I was seeing, and that I would find proof of it somewhere in the fine print. The only thing I can surmise by reading your posts is that you attended the same grammar school as GRANDMASTER Roman.  The fact that you are impressed by him means as little as the opinions of people who have not met him. You say you have met a lot of martial artists. Who? When? What was their history? They must not have been that impressive if you think it's a good idea to ally yourself with someone who sells black belts over the internet, supposedly representing a system as complex as Kenpo, or as nebulous as Red Feather (whatever that is).  To an ant, even a fine mist is a torrential rainstorm. Look around; I've used this phrase in other threads to question the evaluative capacity of the speaker/writer (you, in this case).

MJS is a nice guy who makes responsible posts within the boundaries of courtesy and reason. I do not. I feel strongly about what a black belt is/should be (see my posting on the 'Master flunks everybody' thread), and Mr. Roman's offerings disgust me. He claims, within words of each other, to send you a Parker* Kenpo black belt*, on his *honor as a Native American*, to keep you *out of lousy schools*. I'm absolutely flabbergasted that more people don't catch the multiple layers of ridiculous ideas posited in this presentation. 

Either a Parker belt is completely worthless compared to schools where you actually attend a class after cutting a check (even if they only teach karate-robics), or the whole thing hinges on his honor as a Native American (which means he either isn't one, or there is no such entity as Native American honor)...it's such a twisted foolery of absurd representations, that peeling it apart is like looking for the blunt end of a circle.

A fool and his money are soon parted. If you would like to continue training with a guy who is so cognitively scattered that he can't even make an internally consistent offering while shystering people out of their cash, then God Bless You...somebody has to be the sheep, or the world wouldn't need shepards.  But if you choose to advocate for his reprehensible behavior (try a dictionary...you may have seen one in school, once), you should know there are people here who feel passionately about preserving the integrity of the arts; at least the ones with which they have a connection. There are a bunch of people here with better minds and cleaner histories than mine; with cutting insights & first-hand information; sources who have trained hard for their learnings, and do not suffer fools well. Particularly those selling black belts over the internet.

I have made a lot of mistakes in my lifetime; trained with a lot of fools thinking it was a good idea at the time. I have also had the pure luck to train with some true gems, and I can provide you the names of the fools and the gems in an PM if you like. My point is, after driving several lemons and several awesome street machines, you get a feel for a lemon when you see it (gee, which should I pick for the free car...the Gremlin, or the Porsche?). GRANDMASTER Roman with his black belts through the mail?  I most strongly vote "lemon".

Sincerely,

Dr. Dave


----------



## wisdomstrikes

Hey jrackley, can you tell me more about Adrian Roman?
I have heard so many stories about his man.
-Wisdomstrikes


----------



## jrackley

Joe said:
			
		

> I wouldnt be interested in anything like that, but I have purchased Videos opn certain weapon forms or a perticular Kata I was interested what is the end difference both instructors are making money on "home schooling". Any opportunity to train is better than nothing, maybe thats all they have in area.


Thank you Joe.You guys are misinformed , to get your black belt certification you do have to test with the Chief.Its not easy, you have to be self motivated and really want it .Mr Roman has 38 years of martial arts training and in my opinion is one of the best!


----------



## jrackley

arnisador said:
			
		

> I deleted an extra copy of this thread.
> 
> -Arnisador
> -MT Admin-


I am asking you guys, please do not disrespect Mr Roman.He is my personal Kenpo teacher. He has over 38 years of martial arts experience.He teaches self defense full time.Thats a dream for many of us.
Thanks
JR


----------



## jrackley

superdave said:
			
		

> Too bad Ed Parker isn't around to kick this dude in his butt. Looking through the current issue of Black Belt, I noticed Larry Tatum has a home study program also.
> 
> I understand that Mr, Tatum is skilled and has earned his rank, but this kind of thing just helps to destroy solid martial arts systems.


SuperDave, Please do not disrespect Mr Roman.It is cowardly to talk bad about a martial arts brother behind there back and especially on the internet.You are very misinformed.Adrian Roman has over 38 years of martial arts experience.Theres a picture of him and Ed Parker together at a contest in his office.I personally train with the Chief and in my opinion he is one of the best.PLEASE do not give your opinion about something you do not know anything about!
JRackley


----------



## jrackley

cdhall said:
			
		

> If I legitimately earn a Black Belt in Kenpo and open a studio of my own, maybe even a club. I have already decided that I will have to seriously consider why I should not challenge this guy to a match at the UFC and donate all the proceeds to a legitimate Native American Charity.
> 
> The Charity angle is necessary to not give him a good "out."
> 
> Frankly, I'm surprised no Kenpo Black Belt has challenged this guy in public.
> 
> Right now, I don't have any credentials and I am not in proper shape to go challenging people, but I anticipate getting there and exposing this guy in public will be high on the list.
> 
> Who were the guys that challenged VanDamme? Bill Wallace and 10 others? I don't see why Chief Roman has not been challenged in a similar fashion.
> 
> But I don't know for sure. Maybe he's legit. Maybe what he says is true. I'll have to check that out thoroughly as well.
> 
> I agree this stuff is embarassing and an excellent example of "all that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to stand by and do nothing."
> 
> I guess I need to become a good man. Then once I verify this as "evil" I'll execute whatever recourse I can that is in accordance with Scripture. I am sure the Bible must say something about what to do in these circumstances.
> 
> This is one of the more outrageous claims on the web. How many times does he use Honor on his website?
> 
> I'll shut up, but the lack of the ability to use proper grammar is also a pet peeve of mine. If you are going to claim, in English, that you are a Grandmaster... of something, then at least say it properly.
> 
> "If you thought Kenpo was tough and sophisticated, get ready because we are raising the bar considerable. You will find it challenging and innovated."
> 
> Was he drunk when he put this up on the Internet for everyone on Earth to read? He can't even use the Alphabets of the English Language, why should we believe he is a Grandmaster of the Alphabets of Motion as prescribed by Mr. Parker?
> 
> I hate this stuff. I have been quiet for a while, but I had to chime in this time whether is it Scripturally sound of me to do so or not.


Please do not disrespect Mr Roman.Shame on you.You are a coward to talk bad about a martial arts brother behind there back!Mr Roman is one of the best.He has over 38 years of martial arts experience.A Grandmaster and 8th degree black belt.He is my personal trainer and you are very misinformed about his program.Please do not give your opinion on something you know nothing about.The man teachs self defense full time.What do you do for a living?Please respect others!


----------



## jrackley

MJS said:
			
		

> A video is NOT going to teach the fine points that you will get from a good Inst. If you already have a solid background, then yeah, the video might be able to give you a few things, but nothing can take the place of an actual Inst. You see this with every art out there, not only Kenpo. Its really amazing as to what lengths people will go to just to make some extra$$$$. Its really sad to think that people actually spend money on stuff like this and then think that they are actually at Black Belt level.
> 
> Mike


Mike, shame on you for talking about a brother martial artist behind there back!Mr Roman doesnt do jumping jacks with you, he teachs you how to defend yourself.His program is not for people with no self motivation.You are very misinformed.Chiefs program is good.He is my personal instructor.He has over 38 years of martial arts experience.8th degree black belt and your stabbing him in the back like a spineless jellyfish.Please repect others!
jrackley


----------



## jrackley

clapping_tiger said:
			
		

> Although I belong to a school and I have an excellent instructor. I do know there are a few individuals who train via video through the IKCA. I do admit that I don't think everyone has what it takes to make a good Black Belt working via video, some people do need an instructor right there to show them and guide them through their art (yes, I am one of those people). But I think in order to make a good video program work is that the instructors need to be accessible at all times to the students via telephone, video, seminars, email, and advice on where they could go close by to get one on one instruction. I do know that Mr. Vic LeRoux and Mr. Chuck Sullivan do make themselves available at any time to their members. I think it is pretty harsh to say that nobody can make a good Kenpoist training via video. I have seen some damn fine Black Belts that have come this way, and some Black Belts (even up to 4th Degree) that sucked so bad it made me sick. I do agree that any program that claims you will be a black belt in 365 days is bogus, and you receive your black belt certification right away, and testing is optional?? That is a scam. But not ALL video testing programs work in such a manner. All I am saying is it is not the program or necessarily the Kenpo system, it is how you train. And whether or not you take advantage of all the knowledge and resources that is offered to you.


Sir, you are very misinformed about Mr Romans program.You do test, and private lessons are always available.People come to Dallas from all over the US to train with the Chief.HIS PROGRAM WORKS IF THE PERSON HAS SELF DISCIPLINE IF THEY DONT, THE SHOULD NOT STUDY KENPO!


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Dude. Try not to miss your meds. It makes you ramble like a blithering idiot. If we are to judge a teacher by his students, you disintegrating online is certainly no testament to Mr. Romans credibility.

Dave.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Reviewing your posts, I have to reiterate/clarify something. I believe you need help. The redundancy of innane word salad stuff you've written in a haste reads like the obsessive contents of a disturbed mind. You might want to seek some counseling. I legitimately do not mean this as a slam. I'm concerned for your health and well-being, and highly recommend you seek an evaluation for assistance. A mind can get stuck in a groove, and have a hard time finding its way out.

Good luck to you.  I wish you well and send you good intent.

Dave


----------



## Bill Lear

> *Originally from Mr. Romans Web Site:*
> 
> Grandmaster Roman  has eliminated the hassles, time restraints, and major costs in obtaining a certified Black Belt. As a former school owner, it was necessary to keep a student in the school environment for 4 or 5 years to pay the overhead. The transfer of knowledge is easily done in 365 day or less by concentrating on the material rather than being your physical drill instructor. So, what we are selling is time and convenience to you. What is 4 years of your life worth by not having to go to a local martial arts school 2 or 3 times a week. Don&#8217;t you feel it&#8217;s about time you got your Black Belt?



jrackley,

Eliminated the hassles?

*Legitimately earning a black belt in a studio is a hassle? Why?*

Eliminated the time restraints?

*All good things take time. Right?*

Eliminated the major costs?

*Wow, $995.00 seems like an aweful lot of money for a piece of paper, doesn't it?*

As a former school owner, it was necessary to keep a student in the school environment for 4 or 5 years to pay the overhead?

*1. Why is he a FORMER school owner?
2. Why is it necessary to keep a student in the school for 4 - 5 years?
3. What was his overhead?*

The transfer of knowledge is easily done in 365 day or less by concentrating on the material rather than being your physical drill instructor?

*What does this mean? Does this mean that I don't have to physically do anything? All I have to do is concentrate on the material for 365 days or less?*

So, what we are selling is time and convenience to you.

*We're all mortal, right? Why don't I save myself the inconvenience of living out my natural life and commit suicide? I mean hell... it would solve that pesky problem of having to invest any time into actually doing anything.*

What is 4 years of my life worth by not having to go to a local martial arts school 2 or 3 times a week? 

*I honestly don't know... Do I get to dress up like an indian too?*

Don&#8217;t you feel it&#8217;s about time you got your Black Belt?

*Honestly? No! Thank you.*

:shrug:


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Love the post, Billy, but really don't think this guy is able to get it. All you're going to get is predictable salad, to the effect of "pleasedonotdiosrespectChiefRomanheismypersonalkenpoinstructorwithoverthirtyeightyearsandyouhavenospineattackingpeopleyouhavenevermetpleasedon'tbedisrespectfulGrandmasterRomanisareallygreatguywhomakesmymothercookiesandyouareevilfordisrespectinghimheismypersoanlkenpoinstructor8thdegreeblack..."

I really think we owe it to him to have one of the Texans contact the local authorities to see if he's a 5150 looking for a place to happen.

Respectfully,

Dave


----------



## Bill Lear

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,

I think you might be right. I wonder if he'll use his certificate to defend himself against the authorities when they come to take him away, ho ho, he he, ha ha, to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time...

:idunno:


----------



## MJS

jrackley said:
			
		

> Mike, shame on you for talking about a brother martial artist behind there back!Mr Roman doesnt do jumping jacks with you, he teachs you how to defend yourself.His program is not for people with no self motivation.You are very misinformed.Chiefs program is good.He is my personal instructor.He has over 38 years of martial arts experience.8th degree black belt and your stabbing him in the back like a spineless jellyfish.Please repect others!
> jrackley



OBVIOUSLY, you missed my point here.  If you go back and re-read what I said, maybe you'd understand it.  Let me explain it to you again.  If a student has NO...I'll say it again, NO, martial arts training, if they think that by watching a video, that they'd get the same quality instruction as a live instructor, they are sadly mistaken.  Is there going to be anyone there to correct you if you make a mistake? No.  Now, if someone already has a background in Kenpo, then yeah, I'd say the tapes are good as a reference point.  Now, you bring up another good point.  You said that he is your PERSONAL instructor.  Ok, so that means that you have access to him all the time, whereas a distance student does not.  I'm sure you also got offended due to the fact that you're his student, and of course you're going to support everything that he sells, does, etc.  It has nothing to do with disrespect.  Instead it has to do with making a point, that its going to be harder to learn from a tape!

I think that you need to calm down a little before you flip out on people!!!  To me, it does not sound like you have any self motivation, rather a lack of self control!  

Mike


----------



## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Dude. Try not to miss your meds. It makes you ramble like a blithering idiot. If we are to judge a teacher by his students, you disintegrating online is certainly no testament to Mr. Romans credibility.
> 
> Dave.



Yes, I agree with that 100%!  I seriously think that you need to relax a little bit here.

Mike


----------



## MJS

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Love the post, Billy, but really don't think this guy is able to get it. All you're going to get is predictable salad, to the effect of "pleasedonotdiosrespectChiefRomanheismypersonalkenpoinstructorwithoverthirtyeightyearsandyouhavenospineattackingpeopleyouhavenevermetpleasedon'tbedisrespectfulGrandmasterRomanisareallygreatguywhomakesmymothercookiesandyouareevilfordisrespectinghimheismypersoanlkenpoinstructor8thdegreeblack..."
> 
> I really think we owe it to him to have one of the Texans contact the local authorities to see if he's a 5150 looking for a place to happen.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Dave



 :boing2:  :boing2: 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Kembudo-Kai Kempoka,
> 
> I think you might be right. I wonder if he'll use his certificate to defend himself against the authorities when they come to take him away, ho ho, he he, ha ha, to the funny farm, where life is beautiful all the time...
> 
> :idunno:



 :boing2:  :boing2: 

Mike


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> jrackley,
> 
> Eliminated the hassles?
> 
> *Legitimately earning a black belt in a studio is a hassle? Why?*
> 
> Eliminated the time restraints?
> 
> *All good things take time. Right?*
> 
> Eliminated the major costs?
> 
> *Wow, $995.00 seems like an aweful lot of money for a piece of paper, doesn't it?*
> 
> As a former school owner, it was necessary to keep a student in the school environment for 4 or 5 years to pay the overhead?
> 
> *1. Why is he a FORMER school owner?
> 2. Why is it necessary to keep a student in the school for 4 - 5 years?
> 3. What was his overhead?*
> 
> The transfer of knowledge is easily done in 365 day or less by concentrating on the material rather than being your physical drill instructor?
> 
> *What does this mean? Does this mean that I don't have to physically do anything? All I have to do is concentrate on the material for 365 days or less?*
> 
> So, what we are selling is time and convenience to you.
> 
> *We're all mortal, right? Why don't I save myself the inconvenience of living out my natural life and commit suicide? I mean hell... it would solve that pesky problem of having to invest any time into actually doing anything.*
> 
> What is 4 years of my life worth by not having to go to a local martial arts school 2 or 3 times a week?
> 
> *I honestly don't know... Do I get to dress up like an indian too?*
> 
> Dont you feel its about time you got your Black Belt?
> 
> *Honestly? No! Thank you.*
> 
> :shrug:



Billy, many VERY good points here!!  IMO, I feel that there is a greater satisfaction to work hard for something, especially something like a black belt, rather than to have it handed out to you after 365 days!  

Mike


----------



## Bald Bob

Superdave, I hate to burst your bubble but the majority of education is now done at a distance.  Video is one of the most sophisticated forms.  Throughout the world, continuing education for neurosurgeons, attorneys, psychologists, and for that matter almost every profession is largely done at a distance.

Since I am a member of Grandmaster Roman's studio my thoughts about his programs are based on empirical evidence rather than your thoughts which are apparently based on pure conjecture.  I have seen his students who have trained by video and then come to his studio to perform what they have learned -- and they do quite well.

SDave, your syntax and vocabulary suggest you have a college degree or something close -- which makes me surprised at your ignorance of modern learning methods.  Captious criticism of what you have never seen goes beyond ignorance into the realm of being mean-spirited and stupid.

Next time you choose to humiliate yourself why don't you choose a less public forum?


----------



## MJS

I think that some people are still missing the point here!  There is nothing wrong with video/dvd.  I myself own a few.  However, the difference is, is that I do not use them as my sole learning tool.  I have several BJJ tapes, but I have a BJJ instructor that I train under.   I feel to lead people into thinking that if they purchase these tapes, that they can be as good as someone who trains on a daily basis at a school, under an instructor, is very wrong.  


Mike


----------



## MJS

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> I have seen his students who have trained by video and then come to his studio to perform what they have learned -- and they do quite well.



A few questions for you.

1- Have these students that come to the school had any prior Kenpo training?

2- Do you think that the quality of a video purple belt, going to be the same as the quality of a purple belt that has access to a school all the time?

3- You said that they do quite well.  How much correction, if any, do they need when they are showing these techs. in person?

4- Do the video students have a very good understanding of the finer points of the tech, or do those need to be shown in detail in person?

5- Is the video training going to stop at 1st degree, or is there an option available to them to continue the learning? 

Mike


----------



## Michael Billings

My instructor DOES know Adrian Roman, has for years, and I have been in at least one seminar he attended ... before he promoted himself to his current rank.  

 Be very careful what you are asserting here *Bald Bob and**jrackley*.  I am giving you the benefit of the doubt, in that, as others pointed out, you may not have any other experience to compare your current instruction to, (or as I say, "you don't know what you don't know"), however ... some of us do, and think what he offers, in the way that he offers it is problematic, unethical, and that is where the Black Belt pledge comes in, and duty to protect students from "ravenous individuals".  

 I do not expect any type of positive response to this post, but feel like there are some of us who do know the Chief from way back - and what he asserts concerns us, as members of the Kenpo community.  That is as polite as I can say it.

 Some of us will continue to protest his commercial offering and the way he does it.  Your defense of him, while admirable, and to be expected of loyal students, is misplaced at best.  I am sincerely glad you are happy in your current training, and do wish you the best personally, but this does not make his web offering any more paletable, which is what this thread was about initially.

 -Michael


----------



## wisdomstrikes

MJS said:
			
		

> I think that some people are still missing the point here! There is nothing wrong with video/dvd. I myself own a few. However, the difference is, is that I do not use them as my sole learning tool. I have several BJJ tapes, but I have a BJJ instructor that I train under. I feel to lead people into thinking that if they purchase these tapes, that they can be as good as someone who trains on a daily basis at a school, under an instructor, is very wrong.
> 
> 
> YUP!!!


----------



## Nightingale

Nobody's talking about anyone behind their back.  This is a public forum, and anyone can drop by and read what's been posted.


----------



## jrackley

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I researched his website thoroughly, painstakingly weeding my way through poorly structured paragraphs, mispelled words, and partially represented ideas, hoping that I wasn't really seeing what I was seeing, and that I would find proof of it somewhere in the fine print. The only thing I can surmise by reading your posts is that you attended the same grammar school as GRANDMASTER Roman. The fact that you are impressed by him means as little as the opinions of people who have not met him. You say you have met a lot of martial artists. Who? When? What was their history? They must not have been that impressive if you think it's a good idea to ally yourself with someone who sells black belts over the internet, supposedly representing a system as complex as Kenpo, or as nebulous as Red Feather (whatever that is). To an ant, even a fine mist is a torrential rainstorm. Look around; I've used this phrase in other threads to question the evaluative capacity of the speaker/writer (you, in this case).
> 
> MJS is a nice guy who makes responsible posts within the boundaries of courtesy and reason. I do not. I feel strongly about what a black belt is/should be (see my posting on the 'Master flunks everybody' thread), and Mr. Roman's offerings disgust me. He claims, within words of each other, to send you a Parker* Kenpo black belt*, on his *honor as a Native American*, to keep you *out of lousy schools*. I'm absolutely flabbergasted that more people don't catch the multiple layers of ridiculous ideas posited in this presentation.
> 
> Either a Parker belt is completely worthless compared to schools where you actually attend a class after cutting a check (even if they only teach karate-robics), or the whole thing hinges on his honor as a Native American (which means he either isn't one, or there is no such entity as Native American honor)...it's such a twisted foolery of absurd representations, that peeling it apart is like looking for the blunt end of a circle.
> 
> A fool and his money are soon parted. If you would like to continue training with a guy who is so cognitively scattered that he can't even make an internally consistent offering while shystering people out of their cash, then God Bless You...somebody has to be the sheep, or the world wouldn't need shepards. But if you choose to advocate for his reprehensible behavior (try a dictionary...you may have seen one in school, once), you should know there are people here who feel passionately about preserving the integrity of the arts; at least the ones with which they have a connection. There are a bunch of people here with better minds and cleaner histories than mine; with cutting insights & first-hand information; sources who have trained hard for their learnings, and do not suffer fools well. Particularly those selling black belts over the internet.
> 
> I have made a lot of mistakes in my lifetime; trained with a lot of fools thinking it was a good idea at the time. I have also had the pure luck to train with some true gems, and I can provide you the names of the fools and the gems in an PM if you like. My point is, after driving several lemons and several awesome street machines, you get a feel for a lemon when you see it (gee, which should I pick for the free car...the Gremlin, or the Porsche?). GRANDMASTER Roman with his black belts through the mail? I most strongly vote "lemon".
> 
> Sincerely,
> 
> Dr. Dave


Hello Superdave,
To me , you seem like you are a true loser with many opinions.You are very disrespectful.You are a coward by talking bad behind peoples back.You can spell, WOW!You must have very low confidence, thats why you put down others to try and lift yourself up.I may not have perfect grammer but i do understand brotherhood and courage.Obviously you have learned nothing about integrity and respect from your kenpo teacher or do you study kenpo at your fancy college or country club.No need to respond, i do not want to be associated with stuck up cowards.
jrackley


----------



## TheEdge883

jrackley said:
			
		

> Hello Superdave,
> To me , you seem like you are a true loser with many opinions.You are very disrespectful.You are a coward by talking bad behind peoples back.You can spell, WOW!You must have very low confidence, thats why you put down others to try and lift yourself up.I may not have perfect grammer but i do understand brotherhood and courage.Obviously you have learned nothing about integrity and respect from your kenpo teacher or do you study kenpo at your fancy college or country club.No need to respond, i do not want to be associated with stuck up cowards.
> jrackley



Please keep the personal attacks at a minimum. Posts like that do not speak highly of Mr. Roman's students.

I have at no point saw any personal or disrespectful attacks in what Kembudo-Kai Kempoka  has posted. At no point has he spoken behind Mr. Roman's back, as stated in an earlier post, nothing that is posted here is behind anyone's back. This is a public forum, a free forum, that is here to post opinions, experiences, and thoughts. If you prefer not to read what is here, please do not come back. 

However, if you have something you want to add to the board, please add it in a respectful way that shows your own personal experience.


----------



## jrackley

superdave said:
			
		

> When is the kind of stuff gonna stop? This guy is claiming that you can obtain your Blackbelt in American Kenpo is 365 days or less, following his program?
> 
> More watering down Kenpo for a few bucks.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.adrianroman.com


To everyone on this subject, i just wanted to say i am sorry if i have gotten upset.The art of Kenpo means a lot to me and I have much respect for Mr Roman.To see men putting him down, without knowing him, bothers me.I will work on staying calm and try to be more understanding.
Thank you
jrackley


----------



## Nightingale

Please, feel free to invite Mr. Roman here to explain about his program.


----------



## MJS

jrackley said:
			
		

> He offers private lessons!!!!! Please do research before quoting.



Please realize what the topic of the thread is, and that being vidoe instruction.  Who said anything about privates???

Mike


----------



## MJS

jrackley said:
			
		

> To everyone on this subject, i just wanted to say i am sorry if i have gotten upset.The art of Kenpo means a lot to me and I have much respect for Mr Roman.To see men putting him down, without knowing him, bothers me.I will work on staying calm and try to be more understanding.
> Thank you
> jrackley



Let me explain something to you.  First off, there are MANY people here, including myself that have trained in Kenpo for a long time, so the art is important to us as well!  Second, this is a public forum.  Therefore, you are going to find MANY people with MANY different outlooks on arts, people, training methods, etc.  We are NOT robots, meaning that we all have different thoughts and ideas about things.  If you do not like a topic, or find it insulting, then its very simple...Dont post or read it!!!! There is a little feature called an 'ignore' button on everyones profile.  If you dont like something someone is saying, IGNORE THEM!!!! Forth, I agree with TheEdge883...please keep the personal attacks down.  Fifth, you talk about being cowards, stuck up people, losers, and stuck up people.  I seriously think that you should go back and re-read ALL of YOUR posts.  To me, and I'm sure to many others here as well, YOUR posts contain the very things that you accuse others of being.   You talk about disrespect....Ok, and what do YOU think that you're doing by saying the things that YOU do towards others??? Sounds a little disrespectful to me!!  Sixth, you are not the only person who knows Mr. Roman.  Obviously, Mr. Billings and his instructor know him.  This is NOT about Mr. Roman, it is about tapes/dvd/distance learning in general!!!  It does not matter if we're talking about Roman or Larry Tatum, we are not talking about them as people, we are talking about the tapes!!!  I wonder what Mr. Roman, if he was to read your posts, what his thoughts would be.  I would hope that he would not look too kind upon them.


Mike


----------



## Bill Lear

MJS said:
			
		

> Billy, many VERY good points here!!  IMO, I feel that there is a greater satisfaction to work hard for something, especially something like a black belt, rather than to have it handed out to you after 365 days!
> 
> Mike



Mike,

The sad thing is that he sends the black belt (and certificate) to you immediately. The decision on when to tie it on is left to the video practitioner. (He uses the honor system.  ) Three hundered and sixty five days would be an arguement in his favor that just isn't there.


----------



## MJS

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Mike,
> 
> The sad thing is that he sends the black belt (and certificate) to you immediately. The decision on when to tie it on is left to the video practitioner. (He uses the honor system.  ) Three hundered and sixty five days would be an arguement in his favor that just isn't there.



Billy, you are correct again!  Again, I say that something like a BB, is something that should be earned through some damn hard work, not put in the mail.  As someone who is training with a very good Kenpoist, (Mr.Tatum) and who has put in alot of hard work, I'm sure that the day of your BB test, will most likely be a VERY important and special part of your training.

What I dont understand, is, if you're going to do this video program, why not have all of the ranks mailed to you, in the proper order? Why start with Black, and then go backwards...if you want the others?

Mike


----------



## Bald Bob

MJS said:
			
		

> A few questions for you.
> 
> 1- Have these students that come to the school had any prior Kenpo training?
> 
> Some have had Kenpo training, all I have seen have had some sort of martial art training and the majority I have seen, to my surprise,  have black belts in some other field.
> 
> 2- Do you think that the quality of a video purple belt, going to be the same as the quality of a purple belt that has access to a school all the time?
> 
> All things being equal, no, and that is a dead horse that a lot of people in this forum seem to be kicking.  Juco is not as good as a University, training BJJ with a trained BJJ black belt is not as good as being trained by Helio or Royce, video is not as good as face to face -- depending on the instructor.  I have seen some Kenpo instructors whose one-on-one training is not as good as Grandmaster Roman's videos.
> 
> 3- You said that they do quite well. How much correction, if any, do they need when they are showing these techs. in person?
> 
> Depends on the student.  They almost always have areas that can be improved.
> 
> 4- Do the video students have a very good understanding of the finer points of the tech, or do those need to be shown in detail in person?
> 
> See number 3 above.  Also -- people who have been trained one-on-one by other instructors usually need fine-tuning.  For example, crank Five Swords up to full force and you will find that, as it is usually taught, it sends the assailant spinning away rather than setting him up for the next strikes.
> 
> 5- Is the video training going to stop at 1st degree, or is there an option available to them to continue the learning?
> 
> I don't know.
> 
> MJS thank you for posting one of the saner messages and thank you for bothering to ask questions!  Many of the folks on this forum -- who must be out of work to be able to spend this much time! -- seem content to speculate about what "might be" and criticize from there.  I was glad to respond to this set of questions and would do so again, given the time.  Most of the comments are assertions in the absense of having laid any predicate for the conclusion -- and that just doesn't warrant a response.
> 
> PS Some of the righteous one-on-one instructors make seven year old kids black belts.  Wow.  Between video instruction and making kids black belts which do you think reflects most poorly on martial arts?
> 
> 
> 
> Mike


 Again, MJS, thanks for your respectfully stated questions.


----------



## Seig

Admin Note
Keep the discussion polite and respectfull.
Personal attacks are not tolerated.
-Seig-
-MT Admin-


----------



## MJS

> 1- Have these students that come to the school had any prior Kenpo training?
> 
> Some have had Kenpo training, all I have seen have had some sort of martial art training and the majority I have seen, to my surprise, have black belts in some other field.



This proves my point.  Notice that you said that all that you have seen had prior training.  Therefore of course they're gonna look good...They already have a background, therefore making it easier.



> 2- Do you think that the quality of a video purple belt, going to be the same as the quality of a purple belt that has access to a school all the time?
> 
> All things being equal, no, and that is a dead horse that a lot of people in this forum seem to be kicking. Juco is not as good as a University, training BJJ with a trained BJJ black belt is not as good as being trained by Helio or Royce, video is not as good as face to face -- depending on the instructor. I have seen some Kenpo instructors whose one-on-one training is not as good as Grandmaster Roman's videos.



Let me explain something to you.  People are not always fortunate enough to have the chance to live in Ca. and train with the Gracies.  My BJJ instructor is trained under Roy Harris.  Granted he is not a BB, but he definately knows his material.  Short of me moving to CA. to train with Royce or Larry Tatum in Kenpo, people have to go with what they have.   Personally, it is not a dead horse.  In fact, its a very good point, and its something that YOU said in the first answer.  Training by video is not as good as training in person.  No matter how you try to slice it sir, its the truth.



> 3- You said that they do quite well. How much correction, if any, do they need when they are showing these techs. in person?
> 
> Depends on the student. They almost always have areas that can be improved.



Ok.  That being said, it proves that one on one instruction is better than a tape!  Even if I trained daily with Larry Tatum, of course I'd have things I'd need work on.  The difference is, is that he would be right there all the time for me to ask my questions.



> 4- Do the video students have a very good understanding of the finer points of the tech, or do those need to be shown in detail in person?
> 
> See number 3 above. Also -- people who have been trained one-on-one by other instructors usually need fine-tuning. For example, crank Five Swords up to full force and you will find that, as it is usually taught, it sends the assailant spinning away rather than setting him up for the next strikes.



But this shows that the finer points are still not going to be shown on tape.  



> 5- Is the video training going to stop at 1st degree, or is there an option available to them to continue the learning?
> 
> I don't know.



Ok.  So if someone wants to continue training, their options are limited?



> MJS thank you for posting one of the saner messages and thank you for bothering to ask questions! Many of the folks on this forum -- who must be out of work to be able to spend this much time! -- seem content to speculate about what "might be" and criticize from there. I was glad to respond to this set of questions and would do so again, given the time. Most of the comments are assertions in the absense of having laid any predicate for the conclusion -- and that just doesn't warrant a response.



You're welcome.  Actually, I'm not at work right now.  I'm currently working 3rd shift, so I have much free time during the day!  I enjoy this forum.  There are many very good people here, who have alot of knowledge.  I have been fortunate enough to associate on a more personal level with a few members of this forum.  Also, as I've said before, we are all different.  My views are not going to be the same as another.  Rather than jump down someones throat, maybe listening to what they are saying and asking questions of yor own, would be a much better option, than slinging mud!  Lets keep ourselves as well as the Mods. happy!



> PS Some of the righteous one-on-one instructors make seven year old kids black belts. Wow. Between video instruction and making kids black belts which do you think reflects most poorly on martial arts?



A 7yr BB????  I have to say, that I have seen VERY young kids wearing a BB, and IMHO, its very wrong.  Personally, I would not put a BB around anyones waist until they are at least 16.  But lets not start that debate here.  

Mike


----------



## MJS

jrackley said:
			
		

> Thank you Joe.You guys are misinformed , to get your black belt certification you do have to test with the Chief.Its not easy, you have to be self motivated and really want it .Mr Roman has 38 years of martial arts training and in my opinion is one of the best!



Unless I missed it when I looked at the site, I saw nothing that said that you had to test with him to get your BB.  It sounds to me like this.  You send him the $, and he'll send you the belt!  Does anyone else have thoughts on this???

Mike


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I really think we owe it to him to have one of the Texans contact the local authorities to see if he's a 5150 looking for a place to happen.
> 
> Respectfully,
> 
> Dave



Not fair Dr. Dave. Most don't know what a 5150 is. 
for those who don't, it refers to a section of the "Welfare and Institutions Code" of the State of California, that allows temporary commitment of individuals for the purpose of a medical assessment of their emotional and mental competency, to determine if they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm surprised no one asked. Anyway, I'd have to say, it sounds appropriate to me.


----------



## Bill Lear

Doc said:
			
		

> Not fair Dr. Dave. Most don't know what a 5150 is.
> for those who don't, it refers to a section of the "Welfare and Institutions Code" of the State of California, that allows temporary commitment of individuals for the purpose of a medical assessment of their emotional and mental competency, to determine if they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm surprised no one asked. Anyway, I'd have to say, it sounds appropriate to me.



Hey,

I know what a 5150 is! At least, that's what they've always called me when they've come to take me away.
:moon:


----------



## Doc

* WARNING:

The following is a Doc Rant. Those easily offended by truth, logic, and common sense should avoid contact at all cost.*

You know Ive seen these threads on video training before, and I have to say the whole term sounds like an oxymoron to me. The primary argument seems to be, There is no one that teaches kenpo close to me so what else can I do?

This whole idea that somehow everyone has to be accommodated in someway in American society is ridiculous. I know a lot of people who wanted to go to a particular university but went to another instead because their preference was too far away, too expensive, or they couldnt get in.

Then there are those who had dreams of a university but ended up working on their G.E.D., because they flunked out of high school. Believe it or not, everyone cant nor are they entitled to do everything they want to do. They have an absolute right to pursue their desires, but nobody ever said it was going to be easy as looking at a video.

What it boils down to is what you are willing to accept in route, and how lofty your goals are. Now you may ultimately over time, with hard work, and perhaps some money get to your goal. Or you may just accept the G.E.D. and call it quits. No problem. It is after all about what youre willing to accept. If the G.E.D. education is all thats available to you at the moment, then you are doing the best you can do, until you can do better.

Just stop trying to convince everyone that because youre working on your G.E.D. by video because thats all thats available, that it is equivalent to those in a university. Please. It is what it is. 

And for the record, I never heard of anyone learning a physical activity to any degree of competency that requires an adversarial physical interaction with another where the intent is to inflict injury or death. Additionally anyone who thinks they can learn and attain competency through that medium is either being disingenuous with others, naive, or just fooling themselves.

I have never heard of anyone trying to learn to compete against others properly coached in football, Lacrosse, soccer, basketball, boxing, or even dodge ball by video. Of course learning to defend oneself in a multitude of variable situations where you may be seriously injured or killed is infinitely more difficult.

If I were in that situation, I would rather study anything with a real teacher, over a video. For me, that would be a no brainer, but to each his own. Just dont tell me its just as good, and if you get a belt from it, well thats like holding up your elementary school report card next to my advanced university degree and saying they are the same. 

And although some video black belts will say they know they are not equivalent, when they stand in the company of competent black belts, they dont volunteer they got theirs from video. Thats just human nature.

And for those who say they,  have to study several times a year with a teacher in addition to the video training. Youre kidding right? If I could have gotten a degree by showing up 4 times a year, I could have saved myself a ton of money. Why didnt I think of that?

I know people like Dennis Conatser who didnt live in Southern California who spent a ton of money coming to Pasadena every chance he could to learn from Ed Parker. Maybe he should have just stayed in Arizona and looked at the video. Yah think?

End rant.


----------



## Doc

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Hey,
> 
> I know what a 5150 is! At least, that's what they've always called me when they've come to take me away.
> :moon:


Billy, it doesn't count when you call them yourself just to get away.


----------



## wisdomstrikes

This is getting old, but I still enjoy the silliness. Hell, if I could have become a DEA agent by just watching a video, I would be twice the agent I am today. 
:idunno: 
-Wisdomstrikes


----------



## Doc

wisdomstrikes said:
			
		

> This is getting old, but I still enjoy the silliness. Hell, if I could have become a DEA agent by just watching a video, I would be twice the agent I am today.
> :idunno:
> -Wisdomstrikes


Would you happen to know the name R.P. (Doc) Murdock, L.A. office?


----------



## Bill Lear

Doc said:
			
		

> Billy, it doesn't count when you call them yourself just to get away.



Okay... Okay... I'll have to start running down the street naked screaming, "I am Napoleon, you fools!!!" again.

:lol:


----------



## Bald Bob

MJS said:
			
		

> This proves my point. Notice that you said that all that you have seen had prior training. Therefore of course they're gonna look good...They already have a background, therefore making it easier.
> 
> 
> 
> Let me explain something to you. People are not always fortunate enough to have the chance to live in Ca. and train with the Gracies. My BJJ instructor is trained under Roy Harris. Granted he is not a BB, but he definately knows his material. Short of me moving to CA. to train with Royce or Larry Tatum in Kenpo, people have to go with what they have. Personally, it is not a dead horse. In fact, its a very good point, and its something that YOU said in the first answer. Training by video is not as good as training in person. No matter how you try to slice it sir, its the truth.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. That being said, it proves that one on one instruction is better than a tape! Even if I trained daily with Larry Tatum, of course I'd have things I'd need work on. The difference is, is that he would be right there all the time for me to ask my questions.
> 
> 
> 
> But this shows that the finer points are still not going to be shown on tape.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok. So if someone wants to continue training, their options are limited?
> 
> 
> 
> You're welcome. Actually, I'm not at work right now. I'm currently working 3rd shift, so I have much free time during the day! I enjoy this forum. There are many very good people here, who have alot of knowledge. I have been fortunate enough to associate on a more personal level with a few members of this forum. Also, as I've said before, we are all different. My views are not going to be the same as another. Rather than jump down someones throat, maybe listening to what they are saying and asking questions of yor own, would be a much better option, than slinging mud! Lets keep ourselves as well as the Mods. happy!
> 
> 
> 
> A 7yr BB???? I have to say, that I have seen VERY young kids wearing a BB, and IMHO, its very wrong. Personally, I would not put a BB around anyones waist until they are at least 16. But lets not start that debate here.
> 
> Mike


  MJ your courtesy makes you worth replying to yet again (although I am getting embarrassed by the work I am not doing -- I always said I would stay out of these chat rooms).  

You misunderstand: I do not argue that a video is as good as face to face all things being equal (some videos are far better than live instructors!).  That statement is not, however, equivalent to "it is wrong to award belts via video training."  And that is precisely what some people have said or implied.  IMNSHO you are right about age and BBs and why not start that debate?  It has some substance while this whole video controversy is an exercise in some people having too much time.

I agree with you about slinging mud; that said, if someone opines publicly about something they have no knowledge of that is stupid is the literal sense of the word and is accurate rather than insulting.

Thanks for being a reasonable correspondent.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> Superdave, I hate to burst your bubble but the majority of education is now done at a distance. Video is one of the most sophisticated forms. Throughout the world, continuing education for neurosurgeons, attorneys, psychologists, and for that matter almost every profession is largely done at a distance.
> 
> Since I am a member of Grandmaster Roman's studio *my thoughts about his programs are based on empirical evidence rather than your thoughts which are apparently based on pure conjecture.* I have seen his students who have trained by video and then come to his studio to perform what they have learned -- and they do quite well.
> 
> SDave, your syntax and vocabulary suggest you have a college degree or something close -- which makes me surprised at your *ignorance of modern learning methods*. Captious criticism of *what you have never seen* goes beyond ignorance into the realm of being mean-spirited and stupid.
> 
> Next time you choose to humiliate yourself why don't you choose a less public forum?


Okay. Let's try this for a quick sec.

1. Empirical evidence refers to a thing observed, and nothing more. The rigors of research via the empirical method are simply ways to solidify consistencies between what one person observes under controlled circumstances, and what another observes under that same set of controlled circumstances. I *EMPIRICALLY OBSERVED* the information posted by Chief Roman, on *HIS* website, repeatedly. Found bupkiss there about quality controls via personal interaction, testing, etc. I even looked in the fine print, hoping to find something other than some guy selling a black belt in EPAK. The charge of conjecture would have been applicable had I not referenced the webesite, in a discussion about the contents of the website...had I pulled a Johnny carson, holding an envelope to my forehead. You are a proud student of the Chief, so I'll tell you what: You read the website, and let me know where it says what so many of us have managed to miss, that I was forced to conject about due to the absence of information to the contrary. Or is he blatantly practicing bait and switch? Unsuspecting guy invests good chunk of change, *then* Roman sez, "actually, you gotta come train."?

2. Ignorance of Modern Learning Methods. Do you read any other threads on MT? Unlike many of the other distinguished members of this fora, I did not have the pleasure of training for years with Edmund K. Parker. What I did have the pleasure of doing with him was *directly related* to my my knowledge of learning methods. Mr. Parker mentioned Superlearning in one of the Infinite Insights books. I thought this was cool, since I'd been studying accelerated learning methods for many years, and co-founded the Accelerated Learning Institute with professors in learning theory, cognitive psychology, social cognition, and other LEARNING and communication-related fields. Mr. White formally introduced me to him at a seminar in Costa Mesa, where we arranged to have discussions and sessions at a later time about developments in the fields of accelerated learning and performance improvement (I was from Hawaii, and named Dave...which he seemed to dial in on as it was the name of a brother or brother-in-law of his). Did that; was to summarize the main ideas in a series of articles and a book with his assistance. Mr. Parker passed while I was in Europe. I did *not* learn secret kenpo teachings (this one is for you, Doc), or anything of the sort. Nor did I press him for anything, though the temptation was certainly there (everybody wanted something from him). Just spoke and met a few times with a very kind, friendly, and accepting man, who incidently used to say, "Be careful of who you have your picture taken with." BTW, I am deeply ignorant about how to change the oil in my own car. If you would like to modify your assertions for contextual relevancy, I will be glad to consider them as valid observations, and consider them appropriately.

3. Captious criticism of what I have never seen. Hmm. I have *seen* the *website* at issue in this forum. Have you *seen* *me*?..."beyond ignorance into the realm of being mean-spirited and stupid"... Sound 'captious' enough for ya? Certainly seems to _me_ like a mean-spirited thing to say.

My comments have been -- in this and other threads -- critical of Chief Romans buy-by-night black belt over the web. He may teach in person, and may even produce very good students from among those he personally teaches. Selling the representation of a significant accomplishment cheapens the meaning for those who trained long and hard for similar belts; similar certificates. Even people on the outskirts of kenpo should have enough respect for the dearly departed so as not to diminish the value of their lifes work by making the representation of it a package deal at a bargain basement price. Specifically, Mr. Roman holds himself out (certainly through inference, if not by direct claim) as an 8th degree black in Ed Parkers Kenpo, and offers web students the chance to be 1st degree black belts in EPAK for a check or money order made out to...

Last time I looked, Mr. Parker had only directly promoted the highest ranking of his personal, long time students to 7th degree black prior to his passing. Many of the top seniors in kenpo have since added to their rank, appropriately (in my mind) considering they ARE the most senior members of the system, and a system should not die with it's founder. Last I checked, Adrian Roman is not even close to being one of Ed Parkers' top seniors. Tatum, White, LaBounty, Planas, Trejo, Palanzo (sp?), Ch...something or other, and other familiar names are people with the right to wear higher ranks since the old mans passing. Roman is not. For Pete's sake, Robert Perry, a close friend and long-time student of Mr. Parkers with *YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!* of direct contact and training only dared promote himself to 8th degree (recieving Mr. Parkers blessing as evidenced by his signature on Perry's 8th degree certificate)...the same kenpo rank claimed by Chief Roman. Am I to believe, even for a second, that these two gentleman are/were (RIP, Mr. Perry) equals in their understanding of Mr. Parkers kenpo? _Pshahh!_

Perhaps it is Mr. Roman who should find less public places to humiliate himself, THEN THE *WORLD WIDE WEB*!!!

Aside for this, welcome to MT, and I look forward to your more meaningful contributions.

Regards,

Dr. Dave (note: NOT Superdave)


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

By the way, Doc. Awesome rant.

D.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

I look at some of these, and wonder if Kaith isn't making them up just to liven things in the fora  ...baiting us with the fictional offerings of the cognitively challenged, just so we'll get our undies in a bunch and increase our levels of involvement.  Cuz if he's not, truth really is stranger then fiction.

D.


----------



## Dark Kenpo Lord

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I look at some of these, and wonder if Kaith isn't making them up just to liven things in the fora  ...baiting us with the fictional offerings of the cognitively challenged, just so we'll get our undies in a bunch and increase our levels of involvement. Cuz if he's not, truth really is stranger then fiction.
> 
> D.


I have to admit, I've seriously enjoyed reading all your posts on this subject, and the succinct manner you've displayed with such insight.

Dark Lord


----------



## Doc

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> By the way, Doc. Awesome rant.
> 
> D.


Thanks much. All I ask is that you take at least two breaths between the mention of my friend the late great Bob Perry, and the "Chief."

Bob was ultimately promoted to 9th, and although it was not by Parker, Parker sanctioned it. I was there that night in Garden Grove and Bob was the gentleman he always was. The official "voice of the International Karate Champoinships" for the 12 years I ran it until he quietly passed on. Glad you mentioned his name. There are a number of people like him that deserve discussion for their contributions over "video hucksters."

And the point being made re "distance learning" proliferation to the higher levels of academia, I would remind some it is after the fact with people already in possession of advanced degrees at the top of their field. They didn't get to be surgeons by looking at videos on playstaion 2. And they still aren't fighting for their lives. Apples and hand grenades.

Keepem' duckin' Dr. Dave, I like your style.


----------



## arnisador

It's remotely possible that there is a troll amongst us.


----------



## Bob Hubbard

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> I look at some of these, and wonder if Kaith isn't making them up just to liven things in the fora  ...baiting us with the fictional offerings of the cognitively challenged, just so we'll get our undies in a bunch and increase our levels of involvement. Cuz if he's not, truth really is stranger then fiction.
> 
> D.


Sorry to disapoint, but the folks posting in defence of Chief Roman are in Texas AFAIK.  I have many witnesses who will vouch I was in Buffalo this past weekend, and rarely online.  No magic on my part.


----------



## arnisador

I'll vouch for that!


----------



## Goldendragon7

Doc said:
			
		

> *"Bob Perry"*
> for those that may not know him.
> 
> Bob was ultimately promoted to 9th, and although it was not by Parker, Parker sanctioned it.  He was the official "voice of the International Karate Champoinships" for many years until he quietly passed on. Glad you mentioned his name. There are a number of people like him that deserve discussion for their contributions over "video hucksters."



*"Bob Perry"​*From my files.......


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> *"Bob Perry"​*
> 
> From my files.......


Excellent pic; cool to see the Fan again. Only thing missing: The ever-present pipe. Got my first Meerscham (sp?) from him...a small dragon he no longer wanted, but had well colored over the years. I smoke a pipe on occasion, and never can to this day without wandering down memory lanes about a studio half filled with blue-gray smoke, and the kenpo landmark who built it.

Doc: Sorry about the 2-breaths rules violation, but comparisons require proxemics. Mr. Perry was my first EPAK instructor on Mainland soil in the mid-seventies, and even after moving on, I always returned for spells for the pleasure of being grilled about my intermediate activities. He would predictably take me to task about the arts I'd been studying, and place the techniques & strategies under the microscope of kenpo logic.

I selected Mr. Perry intentionally, based on his reputation amongst older kenpoistas as the consumate salesman; running joke used to be to say "here he comes; watch your wallet" as he entered the room. Nevertheless, he was a consumate kenpo technician. I had a propensity to razz in my younger years (hard to believe, I'm sure), and his response to it was to literally sit my 6'3" butt on his knee, facing away, and pepper me with finger rakes, whips, etc., checking & bumping my legs out from under me as I tried to clear my vision of his fingers and get my feet under me.  Inevitably, by the time my corneas had rebounded to normal position from multiple wipes and I was done staggering to find my center, he would already be accross the room with his pipe back in his mouth, and twirling one of the escrima he'd recieved from Mr. Inosanto.  More rings then Liberace flashing, as he'd exit the room towards his office, getting in some last quip from a safe distance (I'm sure it was because he feared my wicked retribution :boing2: ).  He might seperate you from your well-earned cash, but he provided a reliable service in exchange. Many in kenpo started with him over the years, prior to making their own way down destinies lanes. Marked difference from the buy-by-night guys.

All y'all seniors, many going back as far as he, I'm sure know his speed & talents better than I. I miss being raked over by him, and will always feel a duty to take a position with wannabe's that presume to be as well versed as so many excellent seniors, past & present.

Doc Ch...something or other...:wink2: I'm glad he was recognized in this promotion prior to his passing. It's well-deserved for a man who lived kenpo for many more years than most on these boards have been alive. I'm sure he would be occupying an interesting place in kenpo were he with us still.

:asian: 

D.


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

DKL: Thx.


----------



## Bald Bob

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> Okay. Let's try this for a quick sec.
> 
> 1. Empirical evidence refers to a thing observed, and nothing more. The rigors of research via the empirical method are simply ways to solidify consistencies between what one person observes under controlled circumstances, and what another observes under that same set of controlled circumstances. I *EMPIRICALLY OBSERVED* the information posted by Chief Roman, on *HIS* website, repeatedly. Found bupkiss there about quality controls via personal interaction, testing, etc. I even looked in the fine print, hoping to find something other than some guy selling a black belt in EPAK. The charge of conjecture would have been applicable had I not referenced the webesite, in a discussion about the contents of the website...had I pulled a Johnny carson, holding an envelope to my forehead. You are a proud student of the Chief, so I'll tell you what: You read the website, and let me know where it says what so many of us have managed to miss, that I was forced to conject about due to the absence of information to the contrary. Or is he blatantly practicing bait and switch? Unsuspecting guy invests good chunk of change, *then* Roman sez, "actually, you gotta come train."?
> 
> 2. Ignorance of Modern Learning Methods. Do you read any other threads on MT? Unlike many of the other distinguished members of this fora, I did not have the pleasure of training for years with Edmund K. Parker. What I did have the pleasure of doing with him was *directly related* to my my knowledge of learning methods. Mr. Parker mentioned Superlearning in one of the Infinite Insights books. I thought this was cool, since I'd been studying accelerated learning methods for many years, and co-founded the Accelerated Learning Institute with professors in learning theory, cognitive psychology, social cognition, and other LEARNING and communication-related fields. Mr. White formally introduced me to him at a seminar in Costa Mesa, where we arranged to have discussions and sessions at a later time about developments in the fields of accelerated learning and performance improvement (I was from Hawaii, and named Dave...which he seemed to dial in on as it was the name of a brother or brother-in-law of his). Did that; was to summarize the main ideas in a series of articles and a book with his assistance. Mr. Parker passed while I was in Europe. I did *not* learn secret kenpo teachings (this one is for you, Doc), or anything of the sort. Nor did I press him for anything, though the temptation was certainly there (everybody wanted something from him). Just spoke and met a few times with a very kind, friendly, and accepting man, who incidently used to say, "Be careful of who you have your picture taken with." BTW, I am deeply ignorant about how to change the oil in my own car. If you would like to modify your assertions for contextual relevancy, I will be glad to consider them as valid observations, and consider them appropriately.
> 
> 3. Captious criticism of what I have never seen. Hmm. I have *seen* the *website* at issue in this forum. Have you *seen* *me*?..."beyond ignorance into the realm of being mean-spirited and stupid"... Sound 'captious' enough for ya? Certainly seems to _me_ like a mean-spirited thing to say.
> 
> My comments have been -- in this and other threads -- critical of Chief Romans buy-by-night black belt over the web. He may teach in person, and may even produce very good students from among those he personally teaches. Selling the representation of a significant accomplishment cheapens the meaning for those who trained long and hard for similar belts; similar certificates. Even people on the outskirts of kenpo should have enough respect for the dearly departed so as not to diminish the value of their lifes work by making the representation of it a package deal at a bargain basement price. Specifically, Mr. Roman holds himself out (certainly through inference, if not by direct claim) as an 8th degree black in Ed Parkers Kenpo, and offers web students the chance to be 1st degree black belts in EPAK for a check or money order made out to...
> 
> Last time I looked, Mr. Parker had only directly promoted the highest ranking of his personal, long time students to 7th degree black prior to his passing. Many of the top seniors in kenpo have since added to their rank, appropriately (in my mind) considering they ARE the most senior members of the system, and a system should not die with it's founder. Last I checked, Adrian Roman is not even close to being one of Ed Parkers' top seniors. Tatum, White, LaBounty, Planas, Trejo, Palanzo (sp?), Ch...something or other, and other familiar names are people with the right to wear higher ranks since the old mans passing. Roman is not. For Pete's sake, Robert Perry, a close friend and long-time student of Mr. Parkers with *YEARS!!!!!!!!!!!!* of direct contact and training only dared promote himself to 8th degree (recieving Mr. Parkers blessing as evidenced by his signature on Perry's 8th degree certificate)...the same kenpo rank claimed by Chief Roman. Am I to believe, even for a second, that these two gentleman are/were (RIP, Mr. Perry) equals in their understanding of Mr. Parkers kenpo? _Pshahh!_
> 
> Perhaps it is Mr. Roman who should find less public places to humiliate himself, THEN THE *WORLD WIDE WEB*!!!
> 
> Aside for this, welcome to MT, and I look forward to your more meaningful contributions.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dr. Dave (note: NOT Superdave)


  Ease up on the caffeine, Doctor Dave, that many exclamation marks can't be good for your blood pressure.

If the empirical observation and comments of the critics of Grandmaster Roman were simply criticisms of the WEBSITE I stand corrected.  If you saw my website God knows what you would say....  I was under the impression that people were criticizing his distance students without having seen them or his methods without having seen them -- and that, of course, would be stupid, mean-spirited etc.


----------



## MJS

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> MJ your courtesy makes you worth replying to yet again (although I am getting embarrassed by the work I am not doing -- I always said I would stay out of these chat rooms).



Thanks.  I'm doing my best to keep myself in check. 



> You misunderstand: I do not argue that a video is as good as face to face all things being equal (some videos are far better than live instructors!).  That statement is not, however, equivalent to "it is wrong to award belts via video training."  And that is precisely what some people have said or implied.  IMNSHO you are right about age and BBs and why not start that debate?  It has some substance while this whole video controversy is an exercise in some people having too much time.



Some videos are better than a live instructor??  Really?  And which would those be??  As for awarding belts.  IMO, yes it is wrong.  I've always been a firm believer in working hard for things, not having them given to me.  Oh well, to each his own I guess.



> I agree with you about slinging mud; that said, if someone opines publicly about something they have no knowledge of that is stupid is the literal sense of the word and is accurate rather than insulting.



Not true.  The idea of the forums, IMO, is to exchange knowledge.  Do you think that everyone here knows everything about everything?  The thread is about Mr. Romans tapes, but if you stop and think about it, the same can really be said about ALL of the instructional tapes out there, regardless of if its Kenpo, Judo, BJJ, or Kung Fu.  The fact of the matter is, is that its still learning from a tape, no matter how you try to cut it!



> Thanks for being a reasonable correspondent.



You're welcome!  As I said above, I'm doing my best to keep the posts on a semi-friendly level, and at the same time, my own attitude in line!

Mike


----------



## Nightingale

The criticism is based on the way Mr. Roman presents his video program on his website.


----------



## MJS

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> Ease up on the caffeine, Doctor Dave, that many exclamation marks can't be good for your blood pressure.
> 
> If the empirical observation and comments of the critics of Grandmaster Roman were simply criticisms of the WEBSITE I stand corrected.  If you saw my website God knows what you would say....  I was under the impression that people were criticizing his distance students without having seen them or his methods without having seen them -- and that, of course, would be stupid, mean-spirited etc.



I do not believe that the web site is whats in question here, but rather the distance learning process.  

Mike


----------



## Gentle Fist

It all comes down to if a black belt under Cheif Roman is worth $900, and the fact that you may never meet him face to face let alone train with him.  There are 1,000s of different styles with their own black belt requirements.  If one feels like they earned a black belt under this gentlemen by buying his video then so be it.  Most of us on here have trained hard for years and get the satisfaction of going home sore and humilated...  I have videos myself, but would never use them without being shown the form/technique by my master first.  This is America, what makes a black belt these days anyway?


----------



## MJS

fistlaw720 said:
			
		

> It all comes down to if a black belt under Cheif Roman is worth $900, and the fact that you may never meet him face to face let alone train with him.  There are 1,000s of different styles with their own black belt requirements.  If one feels like they earned a black belt under this gentlemen by buying his video then so be it.  Most of us on here have trained hard for years and get the satisfaction of going home sore and humilated...  I have videos myself, but would never use them without being shown the form/technique by my master first.  This is America, what makes a black belt these days anyway?



Good post.  Alot of good points here.  I've said the same thing about tapes.  What good are they if you dont know what the hell is going on???  They should be used as a refer. point, not to solely learn from.  

As for what makes a BB?  Well, IMO, its something that should be earned after putting in many hours and years inot hard work!  It should be something that you earn, not something that is handed to you without you having to do anything for it.

Mike


----------



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Bald Bob said:
			
		

> Ease up on the caffeine, Doctor Dave, that many exclamation marks can't be good for your blood pressure.
> 
> If the empirical observation and comments of the critics of Grandmaster Roman were simply criticisms of the WEBSITE I stand corrected. If you saw my website God knows what you would say.... I was under the impression that people were *criticizing his distance students* without having seen them or *his methods* without having seen them -- and that, of course, would be stupid, mean-spirited etc.


The students, no (aside from the bufoons who believe they can actuallt obtain a legitimate kenpo black belt through the mail). People make their own choices from among the options they percieve as being available to them, and should be invited to continue to do so.  My wish is that enough of the population has the discretionary intelligence to not look at dung, and declare it a diamond.  Remember: The emporer was naked.

His methods?  Absolutely. As a chiropractor in a state where long-overdue insurance and work comp changes cut deeply into the incomes of pseudo-docs like myself, I am already looking into alternatives for making a living; I live meagerly, and cannot even afford a window-box air conditioner in the middle of a withering So Cal heat wave. In the midst of this state of financial need and re-definition, selling black belt certifications over the internet has not even entered my mind as an option; it is a blatant act of disrespect to folks who have spent years training with warm bodies.

Video students. I have, for example, rolled with Royce, Rorion, and Rickson Gracie. I have also seen the instructional video sets, which makes excellent reference resources for the basics. There is no way in Hades that the two are comparable. The second-to-second feedback gained verbally and kinesthetically is the communications vehicle for probably 80-90% of the information transferred during training. 

I have watched video of Mr. Parker demonstrating 5 swords on someone, and have been the dummy on whom he demonstrated 5 swords. Not comparable. You can spend years in a kenpo school, and not really get "it", until being schooled, in person, by a senior (I have a buddy who trained with Mr. Parker for several years, after already having trained in kenpo for 25+ years. Said he learned more about kenpo in the couple seconds Mr. Parker used him as a demo dummy, then in the entire previous 25 years).  How much more so would the differences be between video and warm-body instruction?

My major point is this, simply put:
1. The world has kenpo black belts in it - from many lineages - who worked their butts off, getting the snot knocked out of them and committing hundreds-to-thousands of hours to achieve a level of skill commensurate with the rank and title of American Kenpo Black Belt, as set forth by the expectations of Mr. Parker and his 'disciples' (the inner circle of a dozen or so of his most senior students, of which Mr. Roman was not part.)

2. Mr. Roman offers, on his website, a kenpo black belt with black belt certificate, for a little under a grand. The way it's presented on the website is that, you send him the money, and he'll send you the certificate.  No mention of video-testing (as in Karate Connection); no mention of private lessons to support this magical evolution from tapeworm to butterfly; just some assertions about how he would rather see you not spend your money with a low quality school, so he'll send you your BB immediately (where is the quality in that?).

3. This cheapens the meaning of an AK black belt. It sends the signal to the public that a black belt in AK means nothing, and while that may be true for those purchased from Mr. Roman, it is not true for those who have invested many years of their lives in training to perfect, or even decently understand, the complexities of a system as sophisticated and intricate as Ed Parkers Kenpo Karate.  It demeans the memory of the life work of a man who strove to create a system that meant something, representing the top of the heap where logic meets martial arts. If Chief Roman were, indeed, a Parker senior, with Native American honour, he would have been too ashamed to make this repulsive offer to the public.  If he wants to do it with Red Cloud or Adrian Roman's Kenpo Karate, more power to him, but leave Parker's name out of the marketing press. It is a gross and blatant misrepresentation of Mr Parkers system requirements.  I observed a couple black belt tests with Mr. Parker on the panel, and while he remained congenial at all times, I assure you that the quality of performance and understanding that could be expected from a video black belt bought over the internet would NEVER pass even the most minimal muster for purple belt, much less black.

One thing this and similar threads have done for me: I used to bump into people from less stringent, less sophisticated systems who would relate how they had whooped some kenpo BB's heiny in a brawl, and watching the speaker move, would wonder how they managed to feed themselves, much less beat a kenpo black belt.  Now, however, I get it. They beat an over-the-web video black belt, bought from persons as shockingly opportunistic as the Chief.

I don't need to see his teaching & promotion methods. He has posted them on his website for all to see: You send him the cash, and he sells you the rank.  Call me stupid and mean spirited if you must, but that's a crock of sh** if I ever saw one.

Dave

PS -- When Mr. Parker passed, there were many "grabs for the throne" of kenpo, left palpably vacant. Myriad kenpo associations developed almost overnight, with 2nd degree black belts writing up articles of association that granted them much higher ranks. A standing practice seemed to be to send existing black belts advanced rank certificates, with the idea being that, the more people one could get actively under the auspices of their own organization, the more clout that organization would have in the melee. Myself and several acquaintences started recieving letter packages with rank certificates several degrees above current status, accompanied by invitations to join such and such association. Some took the advancements (one even leveraged his membership until he was sent a certificate advancing him from 3rd degree, to 7th...posted them all on his office wall so it looks like he has many many black belts from a plethora of groups). I literally used the invites and certs to line the bottom of my parrot's cage, took polaroids, and sent them back to the associations.  Had I held on to them, and remained active within the by-laws of the association(s), I could have been a freaking 10th by now. That would mean I knew more about -- and was better at -- kenpo then many of the esteemed seniors who've been ACTIVELY in it since before I was born. That would make me an equal and/or superior to guys like Tatum, White, Ch...something or other..., Conaster, Labounty, and many others who could wipe the floors with me effortlessly.  Pretentious and obscene? Yup. Much like Romans belt-for-money offer.

Sometimes an extended learning opportunity is an extended learning opportunity. Other times, a lie is just a lie.

Regards,

D.


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Interesting idea: I recieved a private e-mail about my use of phrases regarding the passage of time, "since before I was born", and similar. I use this "verbal tic" on purpose to illustrate something very applicable to this thread. Generations have passed, and been replaced while people have studied kenpo. Guys I never heard of before Mr. Parkers passing have started kenpo, and risen to respected positions under the tutelage of better-known and obscure seniors. If guys live 15-40+ years in kenpo to obtain their position, how absolutely insane is it that some yahoo is going to buy it in a cracker-jack box, and hold himself out as being on par with the real McCoy's?  In the time it takes for shipping & handling to be processed?

Sickened,

D.


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## marshallbd

MJS said:
			
		

> Unless I missed it when I looked at the site, I saw nothing that said that you had to test with him to get your BB.  It sounds to me like this.  You send him the $, and he'll send you the belt!  Does anyone else have thoughts on this???
> 
> Mike


That's exactly what Mr Roman told me when I called the number to ask him about the testing process because I was sure that I misread his web site.  He told me that my signed black belt cert would arrive within 10 days and that in 1 year I would be eligible for a franchise for an Ungodly amount of money in his Red Warrior system eligible for discounted seminars.  Now that is just a bunch of crap in my humble opinion....By the way, when I told him I couldn't afford the DVD's for a while, he dropped the price to $495 because he was running a "special that was only good until the next day".... Needless to say I passed on the offer....  Unlike some of the others that post on this subject, I feel that you can learn an art off of video when tested on video as well but would only use this option if it were the ONLY way I could train....I will change arts rather than do the video thing for now... :asian:


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## marshallbd

Doc said:
			
		

> Not fair Dr. Dave. Most don't know what a 5150 is.
> for those who don't, it refers to a section of the "Welfare and Institutions Code" of the State of California, that allows temporary commitment of individuals for the purpose of a medical assessment of their emotional and mental competency, to determine if they are a danger to themselves or others. I'm surprised no one asked. Anyway, I'd have to say, it sounds appropriate to me.


In Colorado its an "M5" :asian:


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## marshallbd

arnisador said:
			
		

> It's remotely possible that there is a troll amongst us.


I'm pretty new to this internet stuff....what's a troll? :asian:


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## MJS

marshallbd said:
			
		

> That's exactly what Mr Roman told me when I called the number to ask him about the testing process because I was sure that I misread his web site.  He told me that my signed black belt cert would arrive within 10 days and that in 1 year I would be eligible for a franchise for an Ungodly amount of money in his Red Warrior system eligible for discounted seminars.  Now that is just a bunch of crap in my humble opinion....By the way, when I told him I couldn't afford the DVD's for a while, he dropped the price to $495 because he was running a "special that was only good until the next day".... Needless to say I passed on the offer....  Unlike some of the others that post on this subject, I feel that you can learn an art off of video when tested on video as well but would only use this option if it were the ONLY way I could train....I will change arts rather than do the video thing for now... :asian:



Gee, that was big of him to drop the price $500!!   :boing2: Oh, and I cant forget the franchise opportunity too!    

As for learning off a tape.  Anything is possible.  I mean, a cookbook will teach you how to make a fancy dinner, but it wont make you a gourmet chef!  

Mike


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## MJS

marshallbd said:
			
		

> I'm pretty new to this internet stuff....what's a troll? :asian:



Pretty much, its someone who joins a forum, usually with an anonymous name, giving little to no background about themselves.  They will start a topic, usually something stupid, talk about having knowledge about a topic, but they'll get pissed if you start to question them about the topic.  Just search through a few of the different threads on this forum.  I'm more than sure you'll be able to figure them out.

Mike


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## marshallbd

MJS said:
			
		

> Pretty much, its someone who joins a forum, usually with an anonymous name, giving little to no background about themselves.  They will start a topic, usually something stupid, talk about having knowledge about a topic, but they'll get pissed if you start to question them about the topic.  Just search through a few of the different threads on this forum.  I'm more than sure you'll be able to figure them out.
> 
> Mike


Thanks :asian:


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## marshallbd

MJS said:
			
		

> Gee, that was big of him to drop the price $500!!   :boing2: Oh, and I cant forget the franchise opportunity too!
> 
> As for learning off a tape.  Anything is possible.  I mean, a cookbook will teach you how to make a fancy dinner, but it wont make you a gourmet chef!
> 
> Mike


I don't mean to say that I believe the skill of a black belt (trained realistically with a live instructor)could be developed from video but I do believe video is better than nothing at all....  I originally started looking into the video training because I was thinking of taking a 6 month job at Mcmurdo AS in the antarctic.  I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be able to find a school or instructor there!!! :asian:


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## Shiatsu

My question is a rather easy one.  I agree with what Doc is saying.  However I consider Larry Tatum at the top of the class as for American kenpo.  However doesn't he offer a video training course as well?


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## Ceicei

Shiatsu said:
			
		

> My question is a rather easy one. I agree with what Doc is saying. However I consider Larry Tatum at the top of the class as for American kenpo. However doesn't he offer a video training course as well?


I don't think Mr. Tatum offers his videos to be accompanied with a belt nor does he, after students only view/use them, issue belts. My understanding is he makes these videos to be used as a visual reference source. But then again, I haven't seen Mr. Tatum's promotional ads so I don't know for sure about his videos.

- Ceicei


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## arnisador

marshallbd said:
			
		

> I'm pretty new to this internet stuff....what's a troll? :asian:


You've gotten a good answer already; troublemaking for fun is the key idea. See:
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/t/troll.html
http://www.netlingo.com/lookup.cfm?term=troll


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

Ceicei said:
			
		

> I don't think Mr. Tatum offers his videos to be accompanied with a belt nor does he, after students only view/use them, issue belts. My understanding is he makes these videos to be used as a visual reference source. But then again, I haven't seen Mr. Tatum's promotional ads so I don't know for sure about his videos.
> 
> - Ceicei


I've been in kenpo for most of my life.  I still cannot remember details about which tech comes where in a given form (I can cram it in, learn an entire form in a night and remember it for as long as I'm training it...give me 1 month off, and everything slides right off the teflon brain). I'm ordering Mr. Tatums SD tech series, as well as the forms.  Not to learn from for the first time, but for memory joggers.  One of the problems of training in multiple kenpo offshoots is that you learn several ways of doing the same technique.  I.E., is Rolling Talon from Kenpo, TAI, Lima Lama, Elua Lima, etc.  Five swords, seven sowrds, ... about a dozen different interps of thundering hammers, each with something different & cool about it. When someone says, "show thundering hammers"...brain goes in a spin trying to figger out which one, and why.

I think videos as a reference resource are fine, but I'm not trying to learn a new thing here, or even get a rank from it. If I ever meet Mr. Tatum, it certainly won't be to test for a rank based on stuff I learned from his series. I've learned this stuff before, and now need a refresher that's based on the convenience of my own schedule, and not the Monday/Wednesday night at 7:00 PM availability of advanced classes.

Bald Bob slipped on a thread in Western Arts forum, saying people short-changed Mr. Roman...that if you view his website, and talk to him on the phone, he's really a nice guy.  His dialogue partner reminded him, "you mean'train' with him"...

Meanwhile, he lists himself as a kenpo black belt.  Has he ever even met the guy who granted it to him?  Or did it just show up overnight express?

marshallbd: You have a good brain and an open heart; I'm sure whatever choices you have to make will be appropriate for the circumstance, as well as accompanied by an understanding that the power of the resources are not the same.

If you ever get out to Cali in your travels, I'd be glad to work out with you and support you however I may.

Meanwhile, keep your BS detectors on...thier are lots of guys like the Chief out there.

Dr. Dave


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## Doc

Let me put it another way......

If someone trained in Kenpo, any kenpo, or by studying video, any video, by anybody, no matter how long, or what belt they had before, or after ...

They wouldn't be able to pass a yellow belt test from me.


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## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> Let me put it another way......
> 
> If someone trained in Kenpo, any kenpo, or by studying video, any video, by anybody, no matter how long, or what belt they had before, or after ...
> 
> They wouldn't be able to pass a yellow belt test from me.



So, if someone was a black belt under Larry Tatum and then wanted instruction from you, you're pretty much saying  that that black belt isnt worth anything??

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but thats the way it sounds to me.

Mike


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## The Kai

In regards to the video training , there is no substitute for a teacher.
Speaking for myself I could teach the nuts and bolts of my system in about 9 months, yet training takes about 4 years to BB.  Why, corrrection, integration and attitude.
I have seen Video trained Black belts and personally feel that they do nothing to add to the value of the Kenpo community (my opinion).  Living in the midwest I take the oppurtunity to bring the teachers in to my area- simple rule I don't know it till I am personally taught, molded and corrected by the teacher.
Kenpo is such a fantasic art, at what point does this video foolishness water us down (too much??)
_todd


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## Doc

MJS said:
			
		

> So, if someone was a black belt under Larry Tatum and then wanted instruction from you, you're pretty much saying  that that black belt isnt worth anything??
> Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but thats the way it sounds to me.
> Mike



Maybe you should read it again sir. I thought I was pretty clear, and never did I use the word "worthless" in any of my post or descriptions. The worth of any product is set by the consumer. That is why video training exists, becuase it has worth to those that suscribe to it.

Worth is also determined by established communities, groups, and associations of like minded people and that worth may or may not be transferable between them. 

To use an education analogy, (because that's the way I teach), If you have a Ph.D. and you decide to enter medical school to become a surgeon, is your Ph.D. "worthless?" You will start from the beginning and be subjected to the same structure as every other person who wishes to become a surgeon. Your previous education may or may not be an asset to you as an individual, but will have no bearing on "what" you must do to become a surgeon.

In Kenpo terms,  a number of years ago a transfer of black belt students from another school in Southern California to my primary teachng location occurred. One of them was a first generation student of Ed Parker who began with him in 1964 of substantial rank. The others also had considerable rank as well and also currently at the time studied with another first generation student of Ed Parker, and one of them was his top student. It was made clear to them what they had to do to be accepted. After a lesson or two to make my point, they all began working on their basics and "yellow belt" curriculum. The worth of their previous belts, ranks, and training is determined by them in their own mind. I did what I was supposed to do and began teaching them from the beginning to insure they acquired what I feel they should know and be capable of as their teacher. 

The fallicy of "all kenpo being the same" is something I have constantly reminded forum readers and posters of. The term is almost generic and the level of skill, knowledge, and methodologies is as diverse as the above analogy and more. I have many "transfer students" from other kenpo and teachers, and they ALL regardless of previous study exclusive of rank start over from the beginning. Clearly they all found "worth" in that idea. The only ones that have left are the ones who no longer live in Southern California. The rest continue to study, and that first generation student of Parker is still one of them. Apparently all these people felt what they had to do was "worth" it. "Worth" is an individual decision. I have made a value decision on the "worth" of what and how I teach and do not compromise my standards. Others must do the same for themselves. It's not for me to say, unless you want to study with me, then you know what you have to do.


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## MJS

Doc said:
			
		

> Maybe you should read it again sir. I thought I was pretty clear, and never did I use the word "worthless" in any of my post or descriptions. The worth of any product is set by the consumer. That is why video training exists, becuase it has worth to those that suscribe to it.



Yup, looks like I misunderstood you.  Thanks for clearing it up!

Mike


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## Bill Lear

MJS said:
			
		

> Yup, looks like I misunderstood you. Thanks for clearing it up!
> 
> 
> 
> Mike





Everyone has a hard time understanding the good 'ol Doctor from time to time. Just ask one of the nurses that watch over him at the old folks home.

:idunno: 

As for people from elsewhere not being able to pass a yellow belt test under Ron Chapel... He's right. They probably woiuldn't. He doesn't teach the same things we do.

:asian:


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## Doc

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Everyone has a hard time understanding the good 'ol Doctor from time to time. Just ask one of the nurses that watch over him at the old folks home.


I'll have you know some of those nurses have some really big ti ... hey you tried to trick me!


> As for people from elsewhere not being able to pass a yellow belt test under Ron Chapel... He's right. They probably woiuldn't. He doesn't teach the same things we do.


Actually I do teach the same thing, however I teach it differently based on human anatomy (like the Chinese, and what Parker did) instead of motion. I'm just in a different wing of the same hospital.


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## marshallbd

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:
			
		

> marshallbd: You have a good brain and an open heart; I'm sure whatever choices you have to make will be appropriate for the circumstance, as well as accompanied by an understanding that the power of the resources are not the same.
> 
> If you ever get out to Cali in your travels I'd be glad to work out with you and support you however I may.
> 
> Meanwhile, keep your BS detectors on...thier are lots of guys like the Chief out there.
> 
> Dr. Dave


I appreciate it.  Where abouts in Cali are you at.  I am originally from Santa Clara CA and do make it out there every other year to visit family.... :asian:


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## jeffkyle

Bill Lear said:
			
		

> Okay... Okay... I'll have to start running down the street naked screaming, "I am Napoleon, you fools!!!" again.
> 
> :lol:



HAHAHAHAHAHA!   :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:


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