# Forms



## Yu Sul Man (Jun 7, 2005)

I was looking at my syallubus and I was thinking how many out there just learn the forms for forms sake. In retrospect none of my teachers have actually analyzed the forms in great detail. It was more like here do this and learn it, more emphasis was placed on learning the techniques normally associated with each belt rank.  Example in yellow belt (hrd) after the bow in what does that movement mean??
          Just wondering out loud
                                John


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## foolbae1228 (Jun 7, 2005)

Farang-


Typically, the bow is a sign of respect for the judges (tournaments) or teachers (testings, class). How you bow tells what form you are doing. Example...when you bow in yellow sash, your hands are open, suggesting that you will be doing a open-hand form. If you have a weapon when you bow (here comes the college degree...) you are doing a weapon form...

Again, every form is different, and I don't want to write it on the forum, but if you want to go over what I know, PM me and I will do my best. The only other typical tradition in forms is the ki hap, which tells whoever is watching that you just destroyed the imaginary fighter in your form. These normally come up when you are about to change direction.

Farang-
Ryan


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## Yu Sul Man (Jun 7, 2005)

I would say the bow is a given but after that...????

 Another note Is a down block a down block..?  Or the end of orange belt is that really just a palm and mantis strike..(or perhaps it is an entrance to won sul #4) This could be used for any korean style I just happend to be experienced in HRD. I was going through all the forms and was thinking to myself how come, my understanding of the form is surface level.. I think I should go back and make myself understand the movement.
               John


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 7, 2005)

The problem I have with most is just as you said. Here do this... with no explanations behind movements. In Kenpo we analyze everything. It wasn't until after I started Kenpo did I have an appreciation for katas or forms. After I was shown how to think and analyze did I start to have fun. Your typical downward block can have many different meanings behind it. I'm not a HRD student so I can't answer your specific question about the forms. Sorry. I had to give my couple of cents on analyzing forms. :asian:


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## Yu Sul Man (Jun 7, 2005)

Exactly my point, I think for the most part no one analyzes the forms maybe even deeper then that is "Why dont we?" Perhaps it has to do with not questioning our instructors enough? Would they be able to answer the same questions we have? Were they allowed to questions movement or were they told ,"down block is a down block " example 

I am glad you replied and loof forward to more in depth conversation.

           John


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 7, 2005)

In my TKD days I don't think it was as much more than "do it this way or no way". I had many questions that couldn't be answered. I knew there was more to the martial arts than just this. A downward block isn't just a downward block.


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## Yu Sul Man (Jun 7, 2005)

I would like to think of the hiarachy of things , if my instructor didnt know then he would go to the master and if he didnt know then he would go to the grandmaster. If he didnt know then I think there would be a problem 
  I am glad there are some people out there who see a downward block just isnt a downward block but then there are others who just havent made it that far , I think it is those people who we have to reach for.
      Great conversation people. thank you
                John


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 7, 2005)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I would like to think of the hiarachy of things , if my instructor didnt know then he would go to the master and if he didnt know then he would go to the grandmaster. If he didnt know then I think there would be a problem


I think we had problems.   

Seriously though, I was just reading in a Kenpo book yesterday about different applications thereof a simple inward block. The singular inward block was given 16 different applications right before me in black and white  :idunno: . As I said before, I knew there was more to martial arts than punching in a horse stance where everyone was standing at the same level.


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## Yu Sul Man (Jun 7, 2005)

WOW, Jason what a revelation!! I think if my students asked me something I didn't know then I would follow the chain of command and hope that I could find the solution. There is nothing wrong with admitting to your students that you dont know something but for petes sake do something about it. 

 If you could have found those 16 apps ealier in your career , maybe you could have found 16 different apps in something else, you could be a totally different practitoner then you are today. I honestly wish I studied my forms more , nothing I can do now but learn from the past and not repeat it. 

             John 

P.S learning a form for the sake of learning a form

     hahahaha what was I thinking hahahahaha


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## Pale Rider (Jun 8, 2005)

The biggest thing that I look into is the application of the forms.  I can say that I don't know as many forms as most of the Dans of the same rank, but I make sure that I analyze the forms, and break them down to the point more then most. I make sure that I teach to even the beginners the applications to the forms therefore they won't be coming up to me later and ask.  All of the forms have more then what appears, and with a little research into the nerve strikes, joint locks, throws that are apparent in the forms it all (at least to me) seems clear.


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## Yu Sul Man (Jun 8, 2005)

Man, Pale Rider I wish I thought like you when I was a younger belt I would be alot better martial student. I am researching them now and trying to piece together the puzzle. Better late then never.  

                 John


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 9, 2005)

That's all it is. Nothin' but a big jigsaw puzzle and it's up to the individual to put the pieces together. :asian:  Yes, better late than never. Myself and another guy from the studio were working the actual self defense techniques out of the forms on saturday. It was pretty intesesting to find transition steps between one side vs. the other also applications between the techniques. One instance we had a little difficulty on making something work. After a few minutes I said throw this then this then "x" should working perfectly. Guess what? It fit like a glove. :asian:


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## Simon Curran (Jun 9, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I think we had problems.
> 
> Seriously though, I was just reading in a Kenpo book yesterday about different applications thereof a simple inward block. The singular inward block was given 16 different applications right before me in black and white :idunno: . As I said before, I knew there was more to martial arts than punching in a horse stance where everyone was standing at the same level.


Hi John, I'd be interested to know the name of that book if possible?


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## Pale Rider (Jun 9, 2005)

I had been fortunate enough to attend one of Master George Dillman's Seminars on pressure points and nerve strikes.  If it is at all possible, I highly recommend attending at least one, you will come out with new viewpoints on the forms. Believe me.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 9, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Hi John, I'd be interested to know the name of that book if possible?


I have been reading 3 Kenpo books at the same time. I will go back and look to see which one it was. :asian:


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## Makalakumu (Jun 9, 2005)

Eek!  No more Dillman discussions!  :flame: 

Anyway, I think the biggest problem with many KMAs and Shotokan-esque arts is that there are WAY to many forms.  Many are taught too soon and too fast and not in nearly enough detail.

In Tang Soo Do, we learn how to look at forms so we can unlock their knowledge, but we are forced by time constraints to pick and choose which ones we want to break down for further study.  If I were to rank the forms that I know really well...the ones that I can demonstrate multiple applications for every single move, they would be...

1.  Gi Cho Hyung Ill Boo (that is right, basic form number one - the very first one you learn.)
2.  Gi Cho Hyung Ee Boo (the second form one learns)
3.  Gi Cho Hyung Sam Boo (the third basic form)

I learned these forms years ago and it took years for my understanding of these forms to blossom.  Right now, I am busily dismantling the Pyung Ahns and I found that I had to start taking jui-jutsu in order to learn and practice all of the grappling that was hidden in those form.  I know that I've barely scratched the surface.

My palms actually get sweaty when I start thinking about the Naihanchi series or about Bassai.  It will take me a few years to get to this point and then it may take _decades_ to fully appreciate the beauty of these forms.

When one tests for chodan in Tang Soo Do, they say your real learning begins.  The masters certainly are right.  I'm backfilling.  I'm relearning everything I've learned and learning new stuff on top of it!  Its a gigantic frustratingly beautiful mess that I can obsess over for the rest of my life.


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## jfarnsworth (Jun 9, 2005)

SIMONCURRAN said:
			
		

> Hi John, I'd be interested to know the name of that book if possible?



I haven't found the right chapter of the book yet. I don't have the time to keep looking. I'll leave you with this though. 
1. Inward block on the inside of a right grab
2. Inward block on the outside of a left grab
3. Inward block on the inside of a right straight punch
4. Inward block on the outside of a left straight punch
5. Inward block on the inside of a roundhouse punch
6. Inward block on the inside of a hook punch
7. Inward block on the outside of a front two hand push
8. Inward block on the inside of a roundhouse kick
Now some of those you have to modify as an inward block/strike. Remember in Kenpo every block is a strike and every strike is a block. I see you are listed as a Kenpoist and since I don't know the list you are working off of remember when blocking against kicks, it's not specifically force on force. The tech. Swinging Pendulum you move off on a bracing angle so you don't take the full force of the kick. Bowing to Buddha also uses a slightly different inward block. Those are off the top of my head. Fill in some of your own.     :asian:


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## searcher (Jun 10, 2005)

I teach the application of the forms as my master taught me and application as I have discovered on my own.    I agree about not bringing up Dilman and his teachings.   Application should be brought on by the students training in the forms.   This way they will remember the moves and flow better, IMHO.


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## Simon Curran (Jun 24, 2005)

jfarnsworth said:
			
		

> I haven't found the right chapter of the book yet. I don't have the time to keep looking. I'll leave you with this though.
> 1. Inward block on the inside of a right grab
> 2. Inward block on the outside of a left grab
> 3. Inward block on the inside of a right straight punch
> ...


 Thank you sir (not been around for a while)
 I am working on the 24 technique system by the way, but that will give me something to start playing with
 If the name of the book comes to you, I would certainly be interested if you could maybe PM me or something.
 Thanks
 Simon


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## lulflo (Jun 24, 2005)

Greetings Yu Sul Man.

 Nice to see a fellow Hwarang. In reference to the forms and your inquiry. I have some input perhaps. First of all, at the end of class, raise your hand when you have a question about something, if you are a little shy about it or would like more depth in your conversation, go talk to your teacher after class and ask. If your instructor is anything like any of mine, they will be happy that you want to take your training to another level. As you have probably figured out by now, there are not that many people out there with a warrior mentality and if you are with a teacher that has it, your extra efforts and inquiries will be appreciated and NOTED. As far as your own exploration into the forms, I would suggest breaking down your movements between ki haps and try to apply them into a battle situation. For instance, in the beginning of oui hyung, consider yourself in a linear battle that engages each of your blocks and that you are patiently awaiting your opportunity to strike, and when it comes, you should be full force with a loud ki hap. (Reference Musashi's Book of Five Rings-"cutting, not slashing") This is a martial art and a combat art, even though you are not on a battle field with enemies to kill, you should be performing every move the way you want it to come out when you are utilizing it. Every move every time so that when you need it, it will come out the way you want it to. Otherwise it will come out with the half effort that was put into it because you were just "practicing". You may only have one chance and will have to be ready to take it. I would say to take your forms seriously as if you are in battle and utilize the moves to build up your form, speed and techniques(remember, kick, punch combinations are techniques too, not just joint locks, etc). 

 I guess I am rambling, but I think I have said something for you to take away. Remember to always ask questions, it is part of being a good student, if you don't have questions, you are saying that you understand everything that you have learned. I love going to learn new things with my teachers because they remind me what a good student does - ask when you want more information.

   Be well my friend.

   Farang - Larry


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## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2005)

Yu Sul Man said:
			
		

> I would say the bow is a given but after that...????
> 
> Another note Is a down block a down block..? Or the end of orange belt is that really just a palm and mantis strike..(or perhaps it is an entrance to won sul #4) This could be used for any korean style I just happend to be experienced in HRD. I was going through all the forms and was thinking to myself how come, my understanding of the form is surface level.. I think I should go back and make myself understand the movement.
> John


Exactly.  Everyone needs to be responsible to dissect and analyze their forms for themselves.  It helps to have help, but if not, do it yourself, and take your time.  

There is a book on the market entitled "The Way of Kata" by Laurence Kane and Kris Wilder.  This book is focused on how to approach the analyzation of kata, and the authors claim that if you understand this, then you can gain a deeper understanding of forms from any style.  I can't give the book a good or bad recommendation because I have just started it and don't yet know enough about what they are saying, but you might want to check it out.


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## arnisador (Oct 13, 2005)

I've skimmed the book and it does look interesting. But yes, having a good teacher is optimal!


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## Flying Crane (Oct 13, 2005)

arnisador said:
			
		

> I've skimmed the book and it does look interesting. But yes, having a good teacher is optimal!


Yup, it sure does help to have a good teacher.  Often, if the teacher is somewhat traditional-minded he will only show the more obvious applications.  The hidden applications are, unfortunately, probably still up to you to find for yourself.


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## ajs1976 (Oct 19, 2005)

JFarnsworth mentioned a book with 16 applications for the inward block.  Rick Clarke has a book called 75 Down blocks that is very good.  I have read most of the book and I really started thinking about some of the different applications.  

There is also another book called Five Years, One Kata by Bill Burgar that is about indepth study of one kata.  I don't have this book, but it is on my wish list.


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## arnisador (Oct 19, 2005)

I think those books are reviewed in The Library...or at least discussed.


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## karatekid1975 (Oct 21, 2005)

upnorthkyosa said:
			
		

> Eek!  No more Dillman discussions!  :flame:
> 
> Anyway, I think the biggest problem with many KMAs and Shotokan-esque arts is that there are WAY to many forms.  Many are taught too soon and too fast and not in nearly enough detail.
> 
> ...



I totally agree. When I did TSD, it was the same situation (not enough time to learn more apps). But I looked into it myself on my own time. I learned a few basic apps, but nothing too fancy. When I picked up Judo a few years ago and learned throws, a light bulb went on in my head, "Pyung Ahn Ee Dan has a throw in it!" The first three or so moves, that is.

When I started Jujitsu, more stuff came out of my head, "Hey, the Taegeuks have pressure point strikes!" Stuff like that. It just blew me away.

My TKD instructor does show apps, but it's basic stuff. But I am figuring more stuff out on my own, so it's no biggy  But it will take YEARS to fully understand all the forms that I have learned.

A friend of mine told me that some schools do show basic apps, but it's up to the student to "discover" more about them (forms/bunkai). I think that is true now-a-days.

Good thread, by the way


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