# Black Belts and Poor Kicks



## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 26, 2012)

How high of a KUKKIWON black belt can a person be at your school and still have poor kicks? I see alot of kids and older adults getting first poom / dan and have poor kicks. I do see it in higher dans but to a lesser extent.

At your school, can a person never have a decent kick (e.g., a basic tornado kick against a pad, not even in competition) and still rise to a higher black belt (2nd, 3rd, or 4th)? Does age factor in at your school? I read on the forums here previously that KKW starts to get serious about the testing at 4th dan - how about your school?


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## WC_lun (Nov 26, 2012)

Yes they can rise to black level without really strong kicks, but our system doesn't stress kicks, especially fancy one.  I suppose it depends upon why you are studying.  If your school is focused on the physical ability and wonderful kicks, then a black belt should do what is required of the system.  If something like self defense is the focus, can that person defend themselves using the tenants of the system?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 26, 2012)

Good point about the martial art system.  I mean KKW black belt - I'll edit the 1st post.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 26, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Good point about the martial art system.  I mean KKW black belt - I'll edit the 1st post.



Touching on the original post where KKW wasn't specified, it would depend on the definition you're using for 'poor' kicks.  Would it mean sloppy, executed improperly, not high enough etc.  It also would depend upon the goal of the school i.e. sport or self-defense.

Using your edited example of KKW TKD, then we can narrow it down.  KKW TKD is a sport.  No one take offense please, but it is a sport and not to be considered as realistic self-defense.  Nothing wrong with it being a sport, just clarifying what side of the arts it is on.  Now with this in mind, the kicks are designed to be refined motor skilled, flashy and high (for demonstration) and medium to high for sparring.  Therefore if this is the goal of the school then it would be hard to justify someone not meeting those standards gaining black belt or more specifically master status i.e. 4th Dan and up.  If their kicks are poor and we're talking specifically about KKW TKD...what other 'main' standards are they being tested on?


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 26, 2012)

I find it really odd that a KKW black belt can have poor kicks, so a few questions. How are they poor? are they, as Kong Soo Do said, sloppy, executed improperly, not high enough, or is it more that they don't throw them at the right time, never use them to set up/only use them to set up future attacks, are they too predictable?
Also, do you study KKW? If not, it's possible that what you're interpreting as poor is more stylistic differences then actual improper technique or implementation of technique.
Finally, at the schools where you see this, how good is the instructor, and how long does it take people to become black belt? I hesitate to say this, just because TKD gets blamed for it so much, but it's certainly possible the schools near you are McDojos, which would explain why their kicks are so bad Especially if the higher dans also have somewhat poor kicks.


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## Fusion Taekwondo LLC (Nov 26, 2012)

Everybody is on a different journey. I know black belts that could not do a jumping kick of any kind to save their life but I have the utmost respect for them. This is because their strengths lay (lie? sp?) in a different aspect of tkd. Also, you have to take into consideration their age, ability/disability, etc.... Just my 2 cents.


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## WC_lun (Nov 26, 2012)

Something to consider as well is do you trust the instructor making that promotion?  If you do, then you must trust that he is doing what is best for the system, the school, and the individual.  If not, then there are many more issues than one black belt not able to perform kicks to your satisfaction.


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## Manny (Nov 26, 2012)

My sambonim is a 7h dan black belt in KKW, he is almost 60 years old and he has a very nice pic of him in his affice when he was very young performin g a wonderful kawi chagi (sissors kick), he does not do that kick anymore because of age and because even he is in relative good shape he does not train anymore to the degree need it to do FANTASTIC,FLANBOYANT AND OUT OF SPACE KICKS!!!! However my sambonim is one of the best in my country, he has lots of knowledge and he is one of the top international referee/judge in my country and he is a super teacher.

Now, myself.... well I'am a 45 years old second dan black belt with some bacon aroud my stomach, my feet are concave and I had fascitis plantar, my ankles hurts and yes for me it's very dificult to perform tornado kicks for example, even the regular jumping/spining hook kick it's painful so you can say my rasenal of falmboyant kicks is not existent but in the other hand my peetchagui, my dolyo chagui, my yop chagui and back kick are very nice, my hand techs are very good and my blocks are strong and painful so please tell me... Because I can't jump/spin doing aerial kicks I am not a black belt? or worthless as a black belt becuase of this?

Manny


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## jda (Nov 26, 2012)

I'll be testing for my third dan next month and a lot of my kicks are not what they used to be.  I think that not all kicks need to be high to be considered good quality.  Some of my kicks are a little clumsy.  Anything involving a jump and spin is not as good as some of our younger students, but I can do it well enough to teach it.  I'm almost fifty years old and could not roundhouse kick you in the head.  I'm smarter than that and not limber enough any more.  What I can do is a heel kick to back of your knee and when you fall then I'll roundhouse kick your head. Because I cannot do a good jumping, spinning, reverse crescent does that make me a bad black belt and not deserve to be promoted if I do well enough?


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## Touch Of Death (Nov 26, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> How high of a KUKKIWON black belt can a person be at your school and still have poor kicks? I see alot of kids and older adults getting first poom / dan and have poor kicks. I do see it in higher dans but to a lesser extent.
> 
> At your school, can a person never have a decent kick (e.g., a basic tornado kick against a pad, not even in competition) and still rise to a higher black belt (2nd, 3rd, or 4th)? Does age factor in at your school? I read on the forums here previously that KKW starts to get serious about the testing at 4th dan - how about your school?


I haven't seen your kicks, but if i were to perform them exactly as you do, I would be accused of bad kicking. What I mean by this is, your criteria may be vastly different than the school down the road.
Sean


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## Tez3 (Nov 26, 2012)

jda said:


> I'll be testing for my third dan next month and a lot of my kicks are not what they used to be. I think that not all kicks need to be high to be considered good quality. Some of my kicks are a little clumsy. Anything involving a jump and spin is not as good as some of our younger students, but I can do it well enough to teach it. I'm almost fifty years old and could not roundhouse kick you in the head. I'm smarter than that and not limber enough any more. What I can do is a heel kick to back of your knee and when you fall then I'll roundhouse kick your head. Because I cannot do a good jumping, spinning, reverse crescent does that make me a bad black belt and not deserve to be promoted if I do well enough?



It certainly doesn't make you a bad black belt and I love the kick to the knee then roundhouse once they are down! Sometimes the young uns need to remember that old and sneaky will beat young and fit every time! :wink1:


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 26, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> .... Would it mean sloppy, executed improperly, not high enough etc. ...... it would be hard to justify someone not meeting those standards gaining black belt or more specifically master status i.e. 4th Dan and up.  If their kicks are poor and we're talking specifically about KKW TKD...what other 'main' standards are they being tested on?



I mean coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height).  Believe it or not, I'm not trying to insult anyone.  I really am curious how high a person can go with poor kicks, perhaps due to age, injury issues, or just being very unathletic.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 26, 2012)

jda said:


> .... Because I cannot do a good jumping, spinning, reverse crescent does that make me a bad black belt and not deserve to be promoted if I do well enough?


 Yes, that's my question.  Or to put it another way, "does your school impose mandatory elements for a test (e.g., spinning hook kick breaking 1 thick board) that is a "must do"?


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 26, 2012)

Manny said:


> ..... Because I can't jump/spin doing aerial kicks I am not a black belt?


Yup, that's my question!  Let's take the age out of the equation.  If a guy was simply uncoordinated, could he rise to 3rd 4th,5th, etc.. black belt with poor kicks?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 26, 2012)

I'm 51 years old. I can still put a foot to your head, with pretty good power. I can't do tornado kicks, nor do I feel a need to do kicks that are, essentially, more for show than function. 
Our school does have mandatory breaks for geup ranks. 
Dan ranks can choose their own breaks. At my last test, I did a 4-station break - 2" with a foward knee strike, 2" with a rear elbow strike, 2" with a standing side kick and 1" with a head butt. I also did a power break of 5 16x8x2" pavers.
Do my kicks look as pretty as some? Absolutely not. Do I think I can employ them effectively? Absolutely.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 26, 2012)

our curriculum does not require students to know many "flashy" kicks but the kicks we are required to know must be performed technically correct with speed, accuracy and power if you want to get much past about second dan.


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## terryl965 (Nov 26, 2012)

I will come at this from another way, I will promote someone to any high dan if they are serious, dedicated and commited to the process of teaching TKD and know how to teach the KKW curriculum. What I mean by this is sometimes when we get older, slower and just can't seem to do all those flashy kicks but we have the desire to continue our journey of giving back to the sport/art that we love than it is all good. I take into account age, medical and physical ability along with there mental ability to promote and teach the sport/art of TKD.


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## ACJ (Nov 26, 2012)

A student's kicks can be absolutely terrible and be promoted to nearly any level. Why? Because the belt system is a tool for me and other instructors to use to motivate, delineate the syllabus and group students. There is no need to hold back any student that would impinge on their ability to learn and be educated.

Belts aren't for other people at my school.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 27, 2012)

terryl965 said:


> I will come at this from another way, I will promote someone to any high dan if they are serious, dedicated and commited to the process of teaching TKD and know how to teach the KKW curriculum. What I mean by this is sometimes when we get older, slower and just can't seem to do all those flashy kicks but we have the desire to continue our journey of giving back to the sport/art that we love than it is all good. I take into account age, medical and physical ability along with there mental ability to promote and teach the sport/art of TKD.


To me, that's the best way to do it  it's impossible to ask some people to do the more physically demanding stuff. Heck, my own sensei can't throw a kick to my head simply because he's older now, had an injury, and doesn't have the flexibility he used to. The dedication is the most important part to me.


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## Tez3 (Nov 27, 2012)

kempodisciple said:


> To me, that's the best way to do it  it's impossible to ask some people to do the more physically demanding stuff. Heck, my own sensei can't throw a kick to my head simply because he's older now, had an injury, and doesn't have the flexibility he used to. The dedication is the most important part to me.



I bet he can drop you in a lot of other ways than a kick to the head though. Experience is probably one of the best tools you can have, coupled with dedication you have the perfect teacher.


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## seasoned (Nov 27, 2012)

Form (mechanics) of kicks should always be taught first. Proper foot position on contact which requires hitting things (heavy bag, striking pads) and such. 
Once the principles of proper kicking are taught, never sacrifice form for height. 

By the time, *no excuses*, someone reaches black belt their principles of technique should be intact.


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## Earl Weiss (Nov 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I also did a power break of 5 16x8x2" pavers.
> .



Spacers? If so, what type?


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 27, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I mean coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height).  Believe it or not, I'm not trying to insult anyone.  I really am curious how high a person can go with poor kicks, perhaps due to age, injury issues, or just being very unathletic.



I'm not sure I'm understanding your response.  Are you classifying a kick that is _coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height_) as a poor kick?  From a self-defense perspective, that is fine.  Stomach height would be about as far as I would teach someone to kick, and only if the attacker has already been stunned by some other form of defense.  Normally, in SD the kick is towards knee height or instep as it is quicker, harder to defend against and does more damage while taking the attacker off-balance.

From the sport perspective, you are considering the type of kick you've described as poor?  If so, why?  

I do agree with others that age and/or injury are legitimate reasons to no longer be able to do some things.  However, they should have been able to demonstrate these things at some point in their martial career in order to be promoted, if that is what the curriculum they've chosen requires.  Yes, belts are motivational but that is a side benefit.  The primary purpose is to gauge the level of training.  Otherwise people are being promoted to levels that they technically haven't earned.  That may not be politically correct these days, but bypassing the standards of the art to 'motivate' people waters down the art as a whole.  KKW TKD has been infected by this over the years and is one of the primary reasons it is looked upon the way it is by those not involved in it's rank structure.  

Black belt doesn't mean a person is a master ninja-commando-ultimate warrior.  But it is a milestone in one's training.  If they can't perform the requirements satisfactorily then how should they be able to earn it?  How can they then turn around and teach it properly to others?  If they have earned it, but then can't perform due to age/injury then at least they still have that prior working experience to pass on with a correct way to perform the technique.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 27, 2012)

ACJ said:


> A student's kicks can be absolutely terrible and be promoted to nearly any level. Why? Because the belt system is a tool for me and other instructors to use to *motivate, delineate the syllabus and group students*. There is no need to hold back any student that would impinge on their ability to learn and be educated.
> 
> Belts aren't for other people at my school.



That sounds good I suppose. But wouldn't that mean you've grouped students, some of which can and some of which can't perform some of the syllabus?  Would that not then invalidate the grouping?


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## ACJ (Nov 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> That sounds good I suppose. But wouldn't that mean you've grouped students, some of which can and some of which can't perform some of the syllabus?  Would that not then invalidate the grouping?



The grouping has more to do with what we would be focusing on teaching that group, rather than their abilities. But despite the rather  blasé attitude toward belt levels I presented in my post, in reality they work much like any other schools, with levels generally being awarded due to competency with a particular skill set. The main point of my post was that we don't get worked up around the idea of how good someone at a particular belt level should be, but on how the belt system affects the learning process of the student and how it can modified to get the best results.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 27, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm not sure I'm understanding your response. Are you classifying a kick that is _coordinated, reasonably quick, relatively high (at least stomach height_) as a poor kick? From a self-defense perspective, that is fine. Stomach height would be about as far as I would teach someone to kick, and only if the attacker has already been stunned by some other form of defense. Normally, in SD the kick is towards knee height or instep as it is quicker, harder to defend against and does more damage while taking the attacker off-balance.
> 
> From the sport perspective, you are considering the type of kick you've described as poor? If so, why?


No, I meant that a "good kick" is one that is at least stomach high, in the context of the KKW style of sparring with all kicks above the belt.  I agree that self defence is a different matter, with knee kicks being effective, but I haven't seen low kicks as part of a KKW belt test.  Do any of you do low kicks as part of the test for a KKW BB?


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## Manny (Nov 27, 2012)

Oh boy.... well there are 5 or 6 dans that can do triple tornado kicks, and there are 5 or 6 dans that can not, I am one of the last but let me tell you soemthing. My roundhouse kick to the ribs is super!! My side kick or back kick is enough to put down an oponent and my dolyo chagui maybe not to high but powerful yes.

Some time back I was on my sweat suit cause I finished training and a frieend of my dad askes how high could I kick? I just tell him right in the chin with my ap chagui do you want me to try it? The folk just smiled and lower his sight and yes my ap chagui is one of the higest kicks I can perform.

I can kick high to the head but sometimes is just unconrtable and my kick is not so powerful but aiming to the torno... well that's another story, I just drop a student using a kicking shiled on his leg and performing a roundhouse to the tight I droped him to the floor with littel pain (thanks to the kicking shield), the student got it! No matter how high I can kick beware of my powerful right legth to the body.

Manny


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 27, 2012)

Earl Weiss said:


> Spacers? If so, what type?



Carpenters pencils.






I had planned to do 8, but I broke my hand a week before the test, and the cast impacted my balance, so I went down to 5. My personal best is 10, so far.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Carpenters pencils.
> I broke my hand a week before the test ....so I went down to 5.



Damn, that's hardcore!


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 27, 2012)

Manny said:


> My roundhouse kick to the ribs is super!!



Is that with the instep or ball of foot?  I'd like to practice the ball of the foot method to penetrate more, but I've been told it's not WTF style, so we never (never ever!) practice it in class.  Too bad in my opinion.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 27, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Carpenters pencils.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Excellent job!


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Nov 27, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I bet he can drop you in a lot of other ways than a kick to the head though. Experience is probably one of the best tools you can have, coupled with dedication you have the perfect teacher.


Oh trust me, he can drop me in many many ways, I would be terrified to fight him for real. But you forgot patience  you need that a lot, especially with new students.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 27, 2012)

I think there is a difference between flashy kicks and good kicks. Even someone in their eighties should still be able to perform a kick with good technique, they may struggle doing a jump spinning hook kick, but if we are talking about good solid technique then neither age nor physical condition should really come into it. I train with a guy in his late sixties who is overweight with little flexibility but he can still perform a front kick, roundhouse, hook, sidekick etc with near perfect technique, they are not head height, but who cares, he kicks with good technique. He is a sixth dan and deserves that rank because of this. If his kicks were sloppy, slow and not done correctly then I would have a major problem with him having any rank higher than probably first gup.  The reason most people have poor kicks is a lack of practice or laziness or a combination of both, you cant just blame age etc.


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 27, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I think there is a difference between flashy kicks and good kicks. Even someone in their eighties should still be able to perform a kick with good technique, they may struggle doing a jump spinning hook kick, but if we are talking about good solid technique then neither age nor physical condition should really come into it. I train with a guy in his late sixties who is overweight with little flexibility but he can still perform a front kick, roundhouse, hook, sidekick etc with near perfect technique, they are not head height, but who cares, he kicks with good technique. He is a sixth dan and deserves that rank because of this. If his kicks were sloppy, slow and not done correctly then I would have a major problem with him having any rank higher than probably first gup.  The reason most people have poor kicks is a lack of practice or laziness or a combination of both, you cant just blame age etc.



I'd have to largely agree with this. A lot of the older, out of shape, lost flexibility stuff is simply a lack of training. I can sympathize. The motivation for training hard changes over time and it can be hard to find time for your own training if you are responsible for teaching everyday, especially if you have a full-time day job, as well.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 28, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I'd have to largely agree with this. A lot of the older, out of shape, lost flexibility stuff is simply a lack of training. I can sympathize. The motivation for training hard changes over time and it can be hard to find time for your own training if you are responsible for teaching everyday, especially if you have a full-time day job, as well.


I saw a "golden oldies" game of cricket recently. The guys participating were former first graders in their 60's and 70's and while they had lost some strength and speed (and put on a lot of weight ) their technique was still close to perfect. Having sloppy black belts with poor technique and using the age/weight excuse doesnt sit well with me. The reality is that to perform a front kick, side kick etc at waist level with good technique is really very easy with a bit of practice. In fact, far easier than most other sports. Agood friend of mine had a bad motor bike accident and and wrecked his back and hips (and he is overweight) and can still execute his kicks to a satisfactory level to be a black belt. My seven year old son can perform kicks with proper technique and he doesnt even practice. High/flashy kicks are another thing altogether but I dont believe you should have to know flashy kicks to get a black belt.


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## Manny (Nov 28, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> Is that with the instep or ball of foot?  I'd like to practice the ball of the foot method to penetrate more, but I've been told it's not WTF style, so we never (never ever!) practice it in class.  Too bad in my opinion.



Instep and part of the shinbone.

Manny


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I do agree with others that age and/or injury are legitimate reasons to no longer be able to do some things.  However, they should have been able to demonstrate these things at some point in their martial career in order to be promoted, if that is what the curriculum they've chosen requires.



This is how I feel.

There comes a time when you have a draw a line somewhere and say that giving a good effort is not quite enough.  Getting to black belt and beyond should require that you ACTUALLY be able to do certain things, not just have a desire to do them or merely try to do them. If a student can't do them, then perhaps there is another martial art (or another hobby altogether) that would be better suited for him or her.

I definitely understand the desire to reward dedication, but you still have to have standards.  It's martial arts schools that refuse to fail anybody when testing time comes around that end up getting a bad reputation, and when there are enough of those schools within that art the whole art suffers as a consequence.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

SPX said:


> This is how I feel.
> 
> There comes a time when you have a draw a line somewhere and say that giving a good effort is not quite enough.  Getting to black belt and beyond should require that you ACTUALLY be able to do certain things, not just have a desire to do them or merely try to do them. If a student can't do them, then perhaps there is another martial art (or another hobby altogether) that would be better suited for him or her.
> 
> I definitely understand the desire to reward dedication, but you still have to have standards.  It's martial arts schools that refuse to fail anybody when testing time comes around that end up getting a bad reputation, and when there are enough of those schools within that art the whole art suffers as a consequence.




So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.

And, as it happens, we do not fail students at promotion time. Students who are not already performing at the next level are not allowed to test. Students who (due to nerves, or whatever) cannot perform at a passing level on test day have their promotions pending until they're able to perform at the expected level. This has happened a ferw times, most commonly when someone has been unable to perform a required break. They keep trying as often as they like till they succeed.


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.



I don't know of any, but it wouldn't seem completely ridiculous to me, especially if it was a TKD or sport karate school that placed a great deal of emphasis on doing demonstrations (and there are several of those around).  It may not be why you or I train, or what we want out of the art, but that's really another matter.

Ultimately though, there have to be SOME standards or requirements.  I guess I look at it the same way I look at going to college -- if you can pass the coursework, you get a degree.  If you can't, then you don't.  Teachers will work with you if you're struggling with something, but at the end of the day, if you want the degree, you have to pass the required tests.  

My main issue is with the notion that you deserve a black belt (or any other kind of belt) just for putting the time in.  That belt should MEAN something, just like a college degree does.  Or just like a Ranger patch does in the Army.  Or just like the "Grandmaster" title does in chess.  

I've always bounced around cities and schools and martial arts too much to ever attain the rank of black belt in any style.  But one day I hope to.  And when I do, I hope that I'll feel like it wasn't an easy journey.  I hope that I will have had to demonstrate skills and abilities that I didn't previously have and that I achieved that rank because I was CAPABLE . . . not merely present when the roll was taken.




Dirty Dog said:


> And, as it happens, we do not fail students at promotion time. Students who are not already performing at the next level are not allowed to test. Students who (due to nerves, or whatever) cannot perform at a passing level on test day have their promotions pending until they're able to perform at the expected level. This has happened a ferw times, most commonly when someone has been unable to perform a required break. They keep trying as often as they like till they succeed.



I've heard of schools that are run that way.  It sounds like a better way to do it.  All the schools I've been affiliated with have testings every so often and if you are a student at that school then you are welcome to test.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

SPX said:


> I don't know of any, but it wouldn't seem completely ridiculous to me, especially if it was a TKD or sport karate school that placed a great deal of emphasis on doing demonstrations (and there are several of those around).  It may not be why you or I train, or what we want out of the art, but that's really another matter.
> 
> Ultimately though, there have to be SOME standards or requirements.  I guess I look at it the same way I look at going to college -- if you can pass the coursework, you get a degree.  If you can't, then you don't.  Teachers will work with you if you're struggling with something, but at the end of the day, if you want the degree, you have to pass the required tests.
> 
> ...



Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.

To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.
> 
> To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.



How about a spinning hook kick, head height?  Do you feel that any TKD black belt should be capable of that, or at least should've been at the time he/she received their grading?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

SPX said:


> How about a spinning hook kick, head height?  Do you feel that any TKD black belt should be capable of that, or at least should've been at the time he/she received their grading?




Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.

At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.



I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.


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## ACJ (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.
> 
> At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.



While agree about the general lack of utility of high kicks in terms of self defence (even kicks in general are a lower percentage movement), I quite strongly disagree with the idea of being too old to become or retain flexibility. The vast majority of the population can achieve the level of flexibility required to do high kicks in a relatively short amount of time, with the appropriate work and training.

I have trained many people to this level of flexibility, notably including a student who started martial arts unable to touch their toes or kick above their knee at the young age of 76 years.


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## Jaeimseu (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Passing the coursework does not require one to be a gymnast, in any school that teaches something that deserves to be called "martial arts". It should require that you be able to perform specific techniques properly and with power. There's no reasonable reason to expect that your kick be done at a full split, after doing a double back flip with a half twist. That's gymnastics, not martial arts.
> 
> To continue your college analogy, a tornado kick is the equivalent of calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head. Cool if you can do it, but not really all that important.



I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 28, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.


I agree regarding the tornado kick, its certainly not a difficult kick, and any decent black belt should be able to do one. We dont tend to teach them unless a student asks, and Ive seen many a black belt go from never having done one to being proficient at them in the space of one lesson.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.



Hairs may be split, but the bottom line is that gymnastics are not a fundamental part of any martial arts program.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

ACJ said:


> While agree about the general lack of utility of high kicks in terms of self defence (even kicks in general are a lower percentage movement), I quite strongly disagree with the idea of being too old to become or retain flexibility. The vast majority of the population can achieve the level of flexibility required to do high kicks in a relatively short amount of time, with the appropriate work and training.
> 
> I have trained many people to this level of flexibility, notably including a student who started martial arts unable to touch their toes or kick above their knee at the young age of 76 years.



When you start training at 50+, after having two vertebrae replaced with titanium (not a cage, not rods, totally removed) then let's see you do this.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don't think a tornado kick is all that difficult to do, unless your tornado kick is different from mine. A step by step breakdown of the technique should allow almost anyone to perform it. They may not look like a Korean Tiger, but they should be able to demonstrate the understanding of the technique.



I have a complete understanding of the technique. 30 years ago, I could do it. Now, I'm not going to even try.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I agree regarding the tornado kick, its certainly not a difficult kick, and any decent black belt should be able to do one. We dont tend to teach them unless a student asks, and Ive seen many a black belt go from never having done one to being proficient at them in the space of one lesson.



Then by your definition I guess I am not, not will I ever again be, a "decent" black belt. I'll do my best to live with the disappointment though...


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## ACJ (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> When you start training at 50+, after having two vertebrae replaced with titanium (not a cage, not rods, totally removed) then let's see you do this.



Like I said, range of people have been trained, similar situations and arguably more difficult problems have already been overcome. I find the main barrier age and old injuries present are not the physical limitations that have developed, but the attitude of it being an excuse for not trying overcome some of less solid limitations.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Then by your definition I guess I am not, not will I ever again be, a "decent" black belt. I'll do my best to live with the disappointment though...


you could do one dirty dog  break the kick down and its really quite simpl if you just go for waist high. I have a mate who wanted to learn one (and he has never done any martial arts in his life) and he was doing them within a couple of hours, pretty ordinary ones, but he was doing them.


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Spinning hook kick, yes. Head high? No. The utililty of high kicks is very debateable, and while I personally think they can be useful, they're certainly less useful and less common than lower kicks.



The thing about TKD is that it is largely defined by its physically demanding techniques.  When you (or at least most people) think of TKD, they thinking of high kicks, spinning kicks, aerial kicks, etc.  That is largely what sets it apart from other styles and makes it its own thing.

The thing is that if someone doesn't have the aptitude or physical ability to do these kind of things then there are other martial arts that may be better suited to their body type or personal inclinations.  Pretty much all karate styles focus more on power and less on finesse, where lower kicks are the norm and less athleticism is expected.  I don't see the need in trying to fit a square peg into a round hole unless there are just no other MA schools around.




Dirty Dog said:


> At some point, I hope to be allowed to strap a black belt around my wife. I do not think she's likely to throw a spinning hook kick to anybodies head. She started training way too late in life to reasonably be expected to develop that degree of flexibility. She can, however, deliver a spinning hook kick to your ribs that will make you unhappy.



I wouldn't underestimate her (or yourself).  Anyone can become flexible with the right training.  It just may require that you commit half an hour or so a day specifically to focused stretching for, say, three to six weeks.


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I think it would be more like doing 35 x 13 in your head... a little challenging but not too difficult if you have aptitude.



I agree.  Tornado kicks are actually pretty simple.  

Now 540 or 720 kicks . . . that would more more like "calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head."


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## SPX (Nov 28, 2012)

Here you go:  Splits in three weeks.

I haven't done this program, and I doubt anyone who is particularly inflexible with get all the way to the splits in three weeks, but it looks like a very basic but solid routine that I'm sure would greatly improve anyone's flexibility.

http://drillobsession.com/2006/09/03/flexibility-to-the-maxstretch-your-splits-in-3-weeks/


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 28, 2012)

I have to agree regarding flexibility, a half hour a night achieves a lot. I do think its a shame that tkd is defined by high, flashy gymnasic style techniques. Tkd has so much more to offer, and flashy kicks take too much valuable class time away from learning martial arts.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 28, 2012)

SPX said:


> The thing about TKD is that it is largely defined by its physically demanding techniques. When you (or at least most people) think of TKD, they thinking of high kicks, spinning kicks, aerial kicks, etc. That is largely what sets it apart from other styles and makes it its own thing.



I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well. 
30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well.
> 30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
> Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.


so very very true, and if more people realised this tkd wouldnt have the reputation it has.


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I do think its a shame that tkd is defined by high, flashy gymnasic style techniques. Tkd has so much more to offer, and flashy kicks take too much valuable class time away from learning martial arts.



I guess it depends on what we're calling flashy, but I've seen a lot of flashy kicks score in competition.  Personally, it was the spinning/flying stuff that got me interested in TKD as a kid and I still find myself looking for any good opportunity to throw kicks like that.  They're fun.


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I took my first TKD lesson when I was 7. I've studied other arts as well.
> 30 years ago, I might have agreed with you. And at that time, I could do a lot of pretty nifty flying spinning back flipping gymnastic kicks. Not any more.
> Those kicks can be fun, and they are impressive at demos. They are not, however, what TKD is.





ralphmcpherson said:


> so very very true, and if more people realised this tkd wouldnt have the reputation it has.




No love for the Tiger Team then?


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX said:


> No love for the Tiger Team then?


the korean tigers are like a highlights package. If they demonstrated what happens in a real tkd class they would put tne crowd to sleep. I love watching the korean tigers, but I take i for wha it is.


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## ralphmcpherson (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX said:


> I guess it depends on what we're calling flashy, but I've seen a lot of flashy kicks score in competition.  Personally, it was the spinning/flying stuff that got me interested in TKD as a kid and I still find myself looking for any good opportunity to throw kicks like that.  They're fun.


I dont mind mucking around doing the flashy stuff in my own time on my kick bag at home, but I dont want my instructor wasting valuable class time teaching tnat sort of stuff. The hours and hours spent teaching a flashy kick could be much better spent throwing a couple of thousand punches in my opinion, especially considering a lot of black belts cant even throw a punch properly. In my opinion, knowing how to do a 540 kick but being unable to punch properly is the perfect example of having priorities all messed up.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2012)

SPX said:


> No love for the Tiger Team then?



Plenty of love for the K Tigers. But what they do is not TKD. It's gymnastics and dance with moves that are derived from TKD.
I have a lot of love for other gymnastics and dance groups as well.


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 29, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont mind mucking around doing the flashy stuff in my own time on my kick bag at home, but I dont want my instructor wasting valuable class time teaching tnat sort of stuff. The hours and hours spent teaching a flashy kick could be much better spent throwing a couple of thousand punches in my opinion, especially considering a lot of black belts cant even throw a punch properly. In my opinion, knowing how to do a 540 kick but being unable to punch properly is the perfect example of having priorities all messed up.



This. These sort of gymnastics can be a ton of fun and if people want to play with them, go for it. But what matters most is techniques that can be used effectively. I spent a bit of time after class a month or so ago teaching two of our younger students how to do tornado kicks. They asked. Shockingly, neither is using them in sparring. And, come to think of it, I haven't seen either of them practicing them when they're doing their own thing, either. Very sensible of them, really.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Nov 29, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> I spent a bit of time after class a month or so ago teaching two of our younger students how to do tornado kicks. They asked. Shockingly, neither is using them in sparring. And, come to think of it, I haven't seen either of them practicing them when they're doing their own thing, either. Very sensible of them, really.



The danger I think is to say "My tornado kick is slow and ineffective. So therefore it is not worth practising". It may be that it is only ineffective because you don't practice it. As well, I see benefit in practising higher techniques, in that they tend to make more basic techniques even better (through better speed, balance, and body awareness).

In the last BB test I attended (not tested, just attended) students testing for 1st degree had to do 3 kicks: jumping front kick, tornado kick, and spinning hook kick. The boards were not too thick, and the student chose the kicking leg and height, so I think that should be easy enough for most anyone to do.

As to my original question "how high can you go with poor kicks", I see no limit at the school I attend. It's about attitude and attendance. Not saying it is right (and not saying it's wrong), it just "is". I created this thread just to see what "is" at other schools.


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## SPX (Nov 29, 2012)

ralphmcpherson said:


> I dont mind mucking around doing the flashy stuff in my own time on my kick bag at home, but I dont want my instructor wasting valuable class time teaching tnat sort of stuff. The hours and hours spent teaching a flashy kick could be much better spent throwing a couple of thousand punches in my opinion, especially considering a lot of black belts cant even throw a punch properly. In my opinion, knowing how to do a 540 kick but being unable to punch properly is the perfect example of having priorities all messed up.



I think the best way to do it is to have a special class dedicated to those kinds of techniques.  I know there's a local sport karate school that has a special class once a week specifically on "tricking" and learning how to do movie martial arts.  If I was half my age I'm sure I'd be totally down for that.

I do agree that the basics should come first.  Although as I mentioned before, I think a lot of flashy kicks can be very useful . . . if you practice them to be useful.

Since we were talking about the tornado kick earlier. . .


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 30, 2012)

I guess I don't understand the point of this type of kick, at least from a realistic perspective.  Their dancing around each other and they may as well have their hands in their pockets.  I can't see it working against an aggressive attacker not willing to stand there with his hands down while you set it up.  Yeah, I know...this is sport TKD and not meant to be realistic.  I just can't help but see it as a waste of time or worse, sport schools teaching this as a viable form of defense.


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I guess I don't understand the point of this type of kick, at least from a realistic perspective.  Their dancing around each other and they may as well have their hands in their pockets.  I can't see it working against an aggressive attacker not willing to stand there with his hands down while you set it up.  Yeah, I know...this is sport TKD and not meant to be realistic.  I just can't help but see it as a waste of time or worse, sport schools teaching this as a viable form of defense.



A few things. . .

First, you said it yourself--it's a sport.  Then you dismissed it.  The fact of the matter is that you need to COMPLETELY DIVORCE the way you think about TKD as a sport and the way you think about TKD as self-defense.  That's like saying, "Why aren't soccer players allowed to pick the ball up with their hands?  I mean, on the street you could do that!"

Second, and related to the first, the point of that kick for that competitor was to KTFO his opponent and he did.  Again, regardless of any kind of self-defense value, in a sport you do what's going to maximize your chances of winning.

Third, a lot of people find the tornado kick to be confusing.  They get focused on the first knee coming around and completely miss the kick coming from the other leg.  So under the right circumstances, it should be viable even in a self-defense situation.

I've got another video for you.  Another "flashy" kick used in competition to positive results.  Do you also not understand the point of this kick?


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> A few things. . .
> 
> First, you said it yourself--it's a sport. Then you dismissed it. The fact of the matter is that you need to COMPLETELY DIVORCE the way you think about TKD as a sport and the way you think about TKD as self-defense. That's like saying, "Why aren't soccer players allowed to pick the ball up with their hands? I mean, on the street you could do that!"



I agree completely with this statement. The WTF made Taekwondo sparring into a game and adopted a specific ruleset in order to differentiate it from karate and further develop kicking skills (which Koreans have historically favored in folk games such as Taekkyon). In this respect they have done an admirable job and the further refinements they make in the rules have continued to foster this kind of game. 



> Second, and related to the first, the point of that kick for that competitor was to KTFO his opponent and he did. Again, regardless of any kind of self-defense value, in a sport you do what's going to maximize your chances of winning.



Yep.



> Third, a lot of people find the tornado kick to be confusing. They get focused on the first knee coming around and completely miss the kick coming from the other leg. So under the right circumstances, it should be viable even in a self-defense situation.



This is true. The circumstances in which it could prove useful are most likely limited, but it could still be used. I know more than one person who successfully defended themselves using "useless" techniques because they had put the training time in to become proficient in them. 



> I've got another video for you. Another "flashy" kick used in competition to positive results. Do you also not understand the point of this kick?



Heh, nice kick (though I must admit I stopped thinking of flying back piercing kicks as "flashy" years ago - right around the time I became good at them  A flashy kick for me is anything I can't do well  ). I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure 

Pax,

Chris


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 30, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



This. There are plenty of things that work in SPORTS that would be foolish to try in non-sport settings.


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Heh, nice kick (though I must admit I stopped thinking of flying back piercing kicks as "flashy" years ago - right around the time I became good at them  A flashy kick for me is anything I can't do well  ).



I find that the general sentiment is that most people think anything in which a person spins or goes into the air, it's flashy.  And if you do both?  Look out!




chrispillertkd said:


> I will say, however, that if the blue player had his hands up he might well not have taken a boot to the head. Go figure



Ha ha.  Yeah, that could be.  Although that kick hit him in the forehead and even guys who "hold their hands" up don't really hold them at head height.

Floyd would've gotten taken out, too:


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> This. There are plenty of things that work in SPORTS that would be foolish to try in non-sport settings.



Do you expect most people on the street to be trained fighters?  Are you saying that the guy in that vid couldn't have equal success nailing some random, untrained street thug?


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## Dirty Dog (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> Do you expect most people on the street to be trained fighters?  Are you saying that the guy in that vid couldn't have equal success nailing some random, untrained street thug?



Not at all. However, as someone who is involved in physical confrontations on a regular basis (I've had cops tell me that ER people are assaulted more often than they are - maybe because we don't get guns or tazers...) I find it best to assume that they are. That way, I am plesantly suprised when they're not.

Do  you expect that most people are the street are random, untrained street thugs?


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## SPX (Nov 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> Do  you expect that most people are the street are random, untrained street thugs?



Well I don't expect MOST people to have formal training.  Some will.  And there will also be those who aren't formally trained but who have a fair amount of "streetfighting" experience, which actually can be pretty valuable when it comes to knowing how to fight.  

I do agree that you should be prepared for anything.  I just feel that there's more value--even self-defense value, under the right circumstances--to certain techniques than a lot of people give them credit for.  That jump spinning back kick that that guy does in that vid is so blindingly fast that I could easily see him using it for self-defense.  I mean, he probably throws that kick about as fast as he could've thrown a roundhouse.

BTW, that's interesting about ER people getting assaulted.  I was unaware of that.


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## Kong Soo Do (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> I've got another video for you.  Another "flashy" kick used in competition to positive results.  Do you also not understand the point of this kick?
> 
> They get focused on the first knee coming around and completely miss the  kick coming from the other leg.  So under the right circumstances, it  should be viable even in a self-defense situation.



Several things to address here.  First, I understand the point of the kicks you've posted.  In large part, these types of kicks are going to require several things that aren't likely outside of a sport-setting i.e. distance, range, a non-aggressive attacker (one that is willing to stand there during the time it takes to complete the kick rather than closing the distance, and have their hands low).  

Can it possibly be used in a SD situation.  Sure, anything can giving the right set of circumstances.  If the guy is drunk for example, perhaps a little wobbly an not able to close the distance quickly and/or effectively.  But then again, if you're in close quarters i.e. between a couple of parked cars it would be a lot simpler (and vastly more effective) to do a low kick to the knee or instep.  And of course I'd hate to see someone in tight jeans that isn't warmed up (unlike these competitors who have warmed up and stretched out and have the luxury of loose-fitting clothing).  Or someone in high heels or ....you get the picture.  It is a low % defense that requires too many circumstance to line up in order to pull off.

It looks pretty though.  But not really martial art.

Here is a consideration for everyone to be aware of;



> Do you expect most people on the street to be trained fighters?  Are you  saying that the guy in that vid couldn't have equal success nailing  some random, untrained street thug?



Some random street thugs will be untrained i.e. the drunk guy I mentioned.  But some have trained.  Everyone needs to understand that jails and prisons are breeding grounds for criminals to become better criminals whether it is more effective ways to break into a house or more effective ways to stab you or take your head off with an assault.  We have videos of this type of training.  It can't be stopped.  So that random thug you face on the street might be some awkward newbie to fighting that you can blow through easily.  Or, it can be that guy that is on parole that doesn't particularly care if he trashes your face and has learned fist-fighting pretty well in prison (on top of the knife or shank he's armed himself with for just such an occasion).  Which do you think is more likely to pick a fight with you?  After the fight is a lousy time to find out which guy he was.

Just some thoughts.  And nothing intended to flame anyone over.


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## chrispillertkd (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> Ha ha. Yeah, that could be. Although that kick hit him in the forehead and even guys who "hold their hands" up don't really hold them at head height.
> 
> Floyd would've gotten taken out, too:



Haha! I don't know about _that_. I will say, though, that his guard is higher and so he'd have a quicker reaction time to block it after he saw it coming. The blue fighter would have had to get his hands to travel a farther distance (if he had done anything in the first place  ). As it was both fighters were doing an admirable job of protecting their groins from all the low kicks that the WTF allows  

I kid!

Interestingly, some ITF fighters will carry their rear hand in a higher guard, having the fist about level with the jaw/ear lobe while the front hand is carried about shoulder height (with the elbow bent) or even lower so the arm itself protects the ribs down to the waist. That way one gets coverage in the front that is flexible as well as being able to deal with high kicks with the rear hand. Don't know how that would play out in WTF matches since it's really a different game, but it would be interesting to watch.

Pax,

Chris


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## WaterGal (Nov 30, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring  non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost  touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.



When I tested for 1st Dan in TKD, we had to break a thin (1/2"?) board with a tornado kick.  It took some of us a couple tries, but everyone did it in the end.  (Though I think if somebody had an injury etc they would've gotten an exemption.)

But my TKD training focused on WTF sport sparring, where that kind of kick is useful. But you're right about that kick in a real self-defense situation.  I don't think I had to do anything like that for my HKD dan test.


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## WaterGal (Nov 30, 2012)

SPX said:


> I agree.  Tornado kicks are actually pretty simple.
> 
> Now 540 or 720 kicks . . . that would more more like "calculating the cube root of 184.792 in your head."



Yeah, those are a lot harder.  Scissor kicks, too!  My personal goal is to be able to do a decent 540 kick by my 2nd dan test (though GM doesn't require it), but that's less than 2 months away, so I dunno if that's gonna happen.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> In large part, these types of kicks are going to require several things that aren't likely outside of a sport-setting i.e. distance, range, a non-aggressive attacker (one that is willing to stand there during the time it takes to complete the kick rather than closing the distance, and have their hands low).



In large part, I think agree with you.

It would be difficult to do a tornado kick on someone who's bull-rushing you.  

I don't totally agree with the hands low thing, though.  People get kicked in the face in kickboxing and MMA all the time, even when holding a high guard.  You just have to get around that.




Kong Soo Do said:


> Can it possibly be used in a SD situation.  Sure, anything can giving the right set of circumstances.  If the guy is drunk for example, perhaps a little wobbly an not able to close the distance quickly and/or effectively.



Well sometimes even on the street two guys just square up like it's a boxing match.  You know, one guy says something that pisses another one off, they have words, and its fight time.  




Kong Soo Do said:


> But then again, if you're in close quarters i.e. between a couple of parked cars it would be a lot simpler (and vastly more effective) to do a low kick to the knee or instep.  And of course I'd hate to see someone in tight jeans that isn't warmed up (unlike these competitors who have warmed up and stretched out and have the luxury of loose-fitting clothing).  Or someone in high heels or ....you get the picture.  It is a low % defense that requires too many circumstance to line up in order to pull off.



I agree that you should use the appropriate technique at the appropriate time.  Luckily our martial arts systems have a wide variety of techniques, far more than any of us can really master.




Kong Soo Do said:


> It looks pretty though.  But not really martial art.



 I wouldn't say that.  If it can be used--under any circumstances--then it may be art, but it's also martial.




Kong Soo Do said:


> Some random street thugs will be untrained i.e. the drunk guy I mentioned.  But some have trained.  Everyone needs to understand that jails and prisons are breeding grounds for criminals to become better criminals whether it is more effective ways to break into a house or more effective ways to stab you or take your head off with an assault.  We have videos of this type of training.  It can't be stopped.  So that random thug you face on the street might be some awkward newbie to fighting that you can blow through easily.  Or, it can be that guy that is on parole that doesn't particularly care if he trashes your face and has learned fist-fighting pretty well in prison (on top of the knife or shank he's armed himself with for just such an occasion).  Which do you think is more likely to pick a fight with you?  After the fight is a lousy time to find out which guy he was.



That's a good point.  Considering my rather diminutive size (about 5'6", 160 lbs), really, I would rather carry a gun than rely on my hand-to-hand skills in a true, life-or-death encounter anyway.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Haha! I don't know about _that_. I will say, though, that his guard is higher and so he'd have a quicker reaction time to block it after he saw it coming.



Hey, you never know.  That kick was wicked fast.

I actually would love to see how Floyd would handle kicks in a kickboxing match and especially takedowns in an MMA match.  If he was fighting someone with good takedowns, I think it would be wrapped up pretty quickly.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

WaterGal said:


> Yeah, those are a lot harder.  Scissor kicks, too!  My personal goal is to be able to do a decent 540 kick by my 2nd dan test (though GM doesn't require it), but that's less than 2 months away, so I dunno if that's gonna happen.



I have a few kicks that have little to no martial value that I'd like to learn to do.  

I actually would like to be on a demo team, like the KTigers.  Maybe not quite at that high of a level, but maybe a couple of notches below that.


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## Jaeimseu (Dec 1, 2012)

SPX said:


> I have a few kicks that have little to no martial value that I'd like to learn to do.
> 
> I actually would like to be on a demo team, like the KTigers.  Maybe not quite at that high of a level, but maybe a couple of notches below that.



I teach and train with a former (maybe last year) member of the Kukkiwon demo team. He can do stuff that I didn't know was possible. The contrast between what we normally think is "really good" and "world class" is striking. If everyone was measured against his skill and technique, there wouldn't be many black belts.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 1, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I guess I don't understand the point of this type of kick, at least from a realistic perspective.  Their dancing around each other and they may as well have their hands in their pockets.  I can't see it working against an aggressive attacker not willing to stand there with his hands down while you set it up.  Yeah, I know...this is sport TKD and not meant to be realistic.  I just can't help but see it as a waste of time or worse, sport schools teaching this as a viable form of defense.



I don't think schools TEACH this style as self defence, but when students see "self defence" on the sign ("or self defense" in the U.S. haha) they may equate throwing any kick as self defence. My concern is students doing something like an advancing front leg roudhouse kick, with hands down, ending up 2 feet away from the opponent.  Sometimes during drills, I put my fist out very slowly just to get kids thinking about the huge opportunity they are giving someone to simply punch them in the face.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 1, 2012)

SPX said:


> I actually would love to see how Floyd would handle kicks in a kickboxing match and especially takedowns in an MMA match. If he was fighting someone with good takedowns, I think it would be wrapped up pretty quickly.



Quite possibly, unless he's adept at controlling the distance and working angles. If he's able to sidestep when someone goes in for a double leg, for instance, I'd hate to be the one on the receiving end of his punches to the side of the head. That would be brutal. 

Like everything else, it's all a matter of how good you are at what you do and at generalizing your skills to new situations on the fly. 

Pax,

Chris


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 1, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> So do you know of any schools that REQUIRE tornado kicks (and such) for promotion? I ask because I'd certainly want to avoid such a school. Requiring non-useful techniques would indicate to me that the school has lost touch with the realities of self defense, in preference to gymnastics.



You posted a video of board breaking a few pages earlier.  It was impressive.  Nonetheless, isn't it similar to the fanciest of kicks - looks good, but not a technique you would actually use? 

Breaking with a downward motion is easiest given gravity on the boards (no one needs to hold them) and on the user.  Plus people use spacers to show more breaking.  Why not break 3 with no spacers than 8 with spacers? It's for "show" right?

You will never find yourself in a "real" situation with 10 seconds to focus, not move, then strike straight DOWN (not horizontally outwards) on a stationary object.  So would you agree that board breaking is not much different than doing "gymnastic" kicks for testing?  To me, one is a demonstration of power, while the other is demonstration of speed, coordination and agility, but both are in the same camp of being for "show".


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> You posted a video of board breaking a few pages earlier.  It was impressive.  Nonetheless, isn't it similar to the fanciest of kicks - looks good, but not a technique you would actually use?
> 
> Breaking with a downward motion is easiest given gravity on the boards (no one needs to hold them) and on the user.  Plus people use spacers to show more breaking.  Why not break 3 with no spacers than 8 with spacers? It's for "show" right?
> 
> You will never find yourself in a "real" situation with 10 seconds to focus, not move, then strike straight DOWN (not horizontally outwards) on a stationary object.  So would you agree that board breaking is not much different than doing "gymnastic" kicks for testing?  To me, one is a demonstration of power, while the other is demonstration of speed, coordination and agility, but both are in the same camp of being for "show".



Actually, I prefer to do my breaks horizontally, without any long leadup, for the reasons you've mentioned. But that wasn't possible at the time. The other breaks for that test (knee, elbow, side kick and head butt) were all done horizontally, without leadup.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Dec 1, 2012)

Dirty Dog said:


> The other breaks for that test (knee, elbow, side kick and head butt) were all done horizontally, without leadup.



I said you were hard-core when you did "only" 5 slabs because you had hurt your hand.  Now you write that you do head-butt breaks too?  Damn, that really is hard-core!


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## Dirty Dog (Dec 1, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I said you were hard-core when you did "only" 5 slabs because you had hurt your hand.  Now you write that you do head-butt breaks too?  Damn, that really is hard-core!



Headbutts are a useful close-in technique. So I practice them. And some would say I'm already brain damaged, so there's no risk there...

But you're not going to see me doing kicks with more than about a half turn, as a rule.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 1, 2012)

SPX said:


> In large part, I think agree with you.
> 
> It would be difficult to do a tornado kick on someone who's bull-rushing you.
> 
> I don't totally agree with the hands low thing, though.  People get kicked in the face in kickboxing and MMA all the time, even when holding a high guard.  You just have to get around that.



Good point.  Overall I'd still have the hands up though.



> That's a good point.  Considering my rather diminutive size (about 5'6",  160 lbs), really, I would rather carry a gun than rely on my  hand-to-hand skills in a true, life-or-death encounter anyway.



I'm all for law-abiding citizens carrying a firearm.


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## Gorilla (Dec 1, 2012)

I will the self defense talk to the experts...Having said that the YouTube vids posted are not examples of good WTF fighters...they are examples of what not to do...they are not examples of good WTF TKD...We are going to a tournament today as the beginning of our prep for US Open...we will get some rounds in and practice new strategy but we will no take advantage of the lesser skilled...now if a high level fighter shows up strategy changes!


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

Jaeimseu said:


> I teach and train with a former (maybe last year) member of the Kukkiwon demo team. He can do stuff that I didn't know was possible. The contrast between what we normally think is "really good" and "world class" is striking. If everyone was measured against his skill and technique, there wouldn't be many black belts.



That's cool.  I certainly admire anyone who can do amazing physical things.  My favorite sport in the summer Olympics is actually gymnastics, not anything martial arts related.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> Quite possibly, unless he's adept at controlling the distance and working angles. If he's able to sidestep when someone goes in for a double leg, for instance, I'd hate to be the one on the receiving end of his punches to the side of the head. That would be brutal.



Yeah, if you got hit it would suck.  But I really don't don't think he could step into the cage against Ben Henderson and just use his natural talent to fend off takedowns.  He'd need a few years of training.  

Did you see what happened when Randy Couture fought James Toney?  I wouldn't expect much different if Mayweather fought any high-level MMA grappler.  

Now that's not a knock on boxing.  It's a great tool.  But it's just one piece of the puzzle and history has shown us what happens when skilled strikers with no understanding of grappling fight good grapplers.


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## SPX (Dec 1, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> I'm all for law-abiding citizens carrying a firearm.



I've been meaning to get my concealed carry permit for a while now.  I'll do it once I have a little extra money.

Got my eye on the little Ruger LCP.


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## Metal (Dec 3, 2012)

I see both regularly. High Dan holders who can do amazing kicks and high Dan holders who can't perform amazing kicks (anymore). Most of the first ones are younger while the latter are mostly older people. And that's the way it is. ;-)

People age and then certain techniques aren't possible anymore. Yet it's even more amazing when people stick to their martial art and adapt it to their physical limitations. Those people have my biggest respect and it's an honor to train with those people and learn from them.

The main coach at my club is a 67 year old 7th Dan and while he doesn't demonstrate any kicking techniques anymore he's one of the best coaches I ever trained with. Some of the people at the club are 70 and older and still attend training. That's the best motivation you can have, IMO.

Of course we also have training sessions for kids and sessions which are focused on younger adults. Yet the training with those older people is something special. 

And it's also amazing to see people coming back to Taekwondo after taking a break for several years or people in their 40s starting Taekwondo. It's too bad that this isn't a regular thing in the world of TKD.

Of course, whenever I see a young blackbelt who has terrible technique I wonder how he made it to black belt. ^^
But then I remember that I shouldn't judge others after only seeing a glimpse of their skills or experience.
x


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 3, 2012)

You know, my own instructor is a VII dan still an amazing kicker. He had been having some pretty bad knee problems for the past few years and wasn't able to kick as fast or as high as he could and would sometimes have pain in his knees after a workout. Last year he was reading through the list of possible side effects for a medication he was taking and saw on the list "possibility of inflamation of the knee joints" (or words to that effect). Anyway, he then called his doctor and informed him he wasn't going to take that medication anymore and in a few weeks the pain in his knees were gone. Last time I spoke with him on the phone he told me he was back doing spiral kicks (a flying kick where you do a flying side piercing kick and then turn in the air and do a flying back kick before landing) with no problems. He's 64.

My point is, people can stay in shape and do the more difficult techniques as they age through regular practice or, like my instructor, get the ability back if they deal with any physical problem that causes a loss of ability in the first place. Train smarter (and maybe a little harder) and on a regular basis. Gen. Choi was kicking to his own head level in his 80's.

Pax,

Chris


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 3, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Touching on the original post where KKW wasn't specified, it would depend on the definition you're using for 'poor' kicks.  Would it mean sloppy, executed improperly, not high enough etc.  It also would depend upon the goal of the school i.e. sport or self-defense.
> 
> Using your edited example of KKW TKD, then we can narrow it down.  KKW TKD is a sport.  No one take offense please, but it is a sport and not to be considered as realistic self-defense.  Nothing wrong with it being a sport, just clarifying what side of the arts it is on.  Now with this in mind, the kicks are designed to be refined motor skilled, flashy and high (for demonstration) and medium to high for sparring.  Therefore if this is the goal of the school then it would be hard to justify someone not meeting those standards gaining black belt or more specifically master status i.e. 4th Dan and up.  If their kicks are poor and we're talking specifically about KKW TKD...what other 'main' standards are they being tested on?



No it is not, KKW TKD is a complete martial art. Always has been. 

Yonsup Kyorugi as sanctioned by the WTF is a sport.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 3, 2012)

My left leg rear kick suffered for a year while I was training, fighting and coaching on a torn right MCL, I couldn't pivot well on it. Right rear stayed good. Crisp, proper kicks IMO are important for a TKD black belt. They don't have to be high or spinning or jumping or anything but they need to be nice.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> No it is not, KKW TKD is a complete martial art. Always has been.



Interesting, and how are you defining a 'complete art'?


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Interesting, and how are you defining a 'complete art'?



Poomsae/Kata, several types of sparring, bunkai. How else?


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Poomsae/Kata, several types of sparring, bunkai. How else?



Perhaps we're not on the same page as I have a different definition. Kata is an excellent additon to an art, particularly if proper bunkai is taught, however, many arts don't use this concept of teaching. I would not define their training as lacking because of it. Sparring can also be a fine addition, but only within the context that it is taught i.e. sport sparring is a poor choice for self-defense and vice-versa. 

When I think of complete, I'm thinking within the context of the arts purpose. Perhaps from a sport or hobbyest (which is fine) perspective, KKW TKD can be considered complete. I view martial arts more from a self defense perspective so I always think of the art being viable at different combat ranges, ground defense, different options other than striking i.e. locking/throwing/pressing etc, weapons, pre-fight tactics, different clothing, different settings and environmental stimuli etc. 

As I've mentioned in the past, perhaps that is one of TKD's strong suits in that it has different aspects for different goals. And perhaps that can also be considered part of being complete. Hmmm..'part' of being 'complete' sounds odd


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Perhaps we're not on the same page as I have a different definition. Kata is an excellent additon to an art, particularly if proper bunkai is taught, however, many arts don't use this concept of teaching. I would not define their training as lacking because of it. Sparring can also be a fine addition, but only within the context that it is taught i.e. sport sparring is a poor choice for self-defense and vice-versa.
> 
> When I think of complete, I'm thinking within the context of the arts purpose. Perhaps from a sport or hobbyest (which is fine) perspective, KKW TKD can be considered complete. I view martial arts more from a self defense perspective so I always think of the art being viable at different combat ranges, ground defense, different options other than striking i.e. locking/throwing/pressing etc, weapons, pre-fight tactics, different clothing, different settings and environmental stimuli etc.
> 
> As I've mentioned in the past, perhaps that is one of TKD's strong suits in that it has different aspects for different goals. And perhaps that can also be considered part of being complete. Hmmm..'part' of being 'complete' sounds odd



The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, I don't bother with street clothes. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.


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## Tez3 (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, *I don't bother with street clothes*. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.



Probably just as well you aren't a woman wearing heels, tights skirts etc then!:uhohh:


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## SPX (Dec 4, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> When I think of complete, I'm thinking within the context of the arts purpose. Perhaps from a sport or hobbyest (which is fine) perspective, KKW TKD can be considered complete.



It's a complete STRIKING style.  If you look at the techniques in their patterns there are punches, kicks, hand techniques like ridge hands and hammer fists, elbows and knees.  Whether or not the average dojang really trains the techniques that aren't allowed in competition is something to consider, but the fact is that just about everything you need to batter another human being is in the system.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 4, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> Probably just as well you aren't a woman wearing heels, tights skirts etc then!:uhohh:



Principles are the same, only the application changes


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> The most obvious and prevalent self defense view that I don't agree with is that you must train every single scenario for competent self defense. I don't bother training in the dark, I don't bother with different sparring rulesets, I don't bother with street clothes. I tend to put faith in a practitioner's understanding of the principles in Taekwondo/karate/jujutsu/whatever to deal with different situations and apply them as appropriate, rather than having to be shown "this is what you do in this exact situation". There isn't a better tool to teach this than full contact sparring, and I'm of the opinion that well developed striking from taekwondo, karate, kickboxing people will serve them just fine without throwing, submissions, etc. just like well developed throwing or grappling serves wrestlers and jiu jitsu people.



There seems to be, unfortunately, quite a lot you're not bothering to consider.  I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'.  However, there is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to SD situations.  When you have only a hammer you tend to consider everything a nail.  For example, you mention full contact sparring as the best teaching tool.  It isn't from a SD perspective.  It is 'a' teaching tool, if used properly.  However, it doesn't cover pre-fight tactics such as de-esculation, escape and/or evasion, concealed or improvised weapons, multiple attacker (who may or may not be armed), evironmental factors which absolutely can influence and/or dictate actions and responses etc.  When used as a typical 'you start here and your single, unarmed opponent starts over there and now you punch and/or kick and then start all over again and again'...it is actually detrimental to realistic SD because that isn't a real fight.  Nor does it allow the options I've mentioned nor does it address the options necessarly for responses other than striking/kicking.  

There is quite a bit more to realistic SD training that I would suggest you take the time to learn for the benefit of your students, if that is a goal for them.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 4, 2012)

SPX said:


> It's a complete STRIKING style. If you look at the techniques in their patterns there are punches, kicks, hand techniques like ridge hands and hammer fists, elbows and knees. Whether or not the average dojang really trains the techniques that aren't allowed in competition is something to consider, but the fact is that just about everything you need to batter another human being is in the system.



Perhaps this could be a viable definition i.e. complete striking art.  As I mentioned above with the hammer and nail analogy though, the options are limited and don't fully address the reality of the situation.  KKW TKD can be consider, I suppose, an excellent sport art and from that perspective perhaps even a complete art for the intended purpose.  That definition can not fully cover other considerations though.  My point is to celebrate KKW TKD for what it is and what it has to offer for those wanting that venue.  There is no need to stretch it to cover a venue that it simply doesnt'.


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## Metal (Dec 5, 2012)

chrispillertkd said:


> My point is, people can stay in shape and do the more difficult techniques as they age through regular practice or, like my instructor, get the ability back if they deal with any physical problem that causes a loss of ability in the first place. Train smarter (and maybe a little harder) and on a regular basis. Gen. Choi was kicking to his own head level in his 80's.
> 
> Pax,
> 
> Chris



I disagree since this won't be possible for everybody. Yet those people who don't have any health issues and those who can spend the time in the dojang should definitely work on keeping their skills.

I've seen masters in their 80s who still were extremely flexible and in excellent shape. And those people inspire me and make me keep going. Yet everybody has the right to slow down things when they feel the need to and of course still keep their hard earned rank.

Younger black belts who can't do a proper Yop or Dollyo Chagi are a no-go though.


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## chrispillertkd (Dec 5, 2012)

Metal said:


> I disagree since this won't be possible for everybody. Yet those people who don't have any health issues and those who can spend the time in the dojang should definitely work on keeping their skills.



I'm not really sure what you're disagreeing with, here. That people won't be able to stay in shape and do difficult techniques as they age if they practice regularly? Sure they will, barring any health issues or injuries (which I hope was clear from the context of what I said). They might nnot be able to do them as well as they could when they were younger, but they'll still be able to do them. 



> I've seen masters in their 80s who still were extremely flexible and in excellent shape. And those people inspire me and make me keep going. Yet everybody has the right to slow down things when they feel the need to and of course still keep their hard earned rank.



I don't think anyone's arguing for anyone to lose rank if they can't do, say, a flying double kick anymore. Depnding on the system being physically incapable of doing techniques might well prevent people from further promotion, though.

Pax,

Chris


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 5, 2012)

Fine, let's do this again.



Kong Soo Do said:


> There seems to be, unfortunately, quite a lot you're not bothering to consider.  I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'.  However, there is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to SD situations.



There is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to job interviews, too. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> When you have only a hammer you tend to consider everything a nail.  For example, you mention full contact sparring as the best teaching tool.  It isn't from a SD perspective.



Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge my eyes or punch my face.



Kong Soo Do said:


> It is 'a' teaching tool, if used properly.  However, it doesn't cover pre-fight tactics such as de-esculation, escape and/or evasion, concealed or improvised weapons, multiple attacker (who may or may not be armed), evironmental factors which absolutely can influence and/or dictate actions and responses etc.



The principles don't change. I must have said this fifteen hundred times on this board. This is also a good example of 



Kong Soo Do said:


> I don't remember stating that you 'must train every single scenario'.



which I also didn't say you said. I said it was a prevalent view amongst self defense practitioners and it is.

The absolute essential principles a martial artist learns from full contact sparring are reading an opponent (essential in SD), distance control (also essential in SD), how to take a hit (once again) and timing. What else do I need to know? 



Kong Soo Do said:


> When used as a typical 'you start here and your single, unarmed opponent starts over there and now you punch and/or kick and then start all over again and again'...it is actually detrimental to realistic SD because that isn't a real fight.  Nor does it allow the options I've mentioned nor does it address the options necessarly for responses other than striking/kicking.



This is a canned answer that demonstrates a lack of consideration to what I'm actually saying, to be honest. Think about it. 



Kong Soo Do said:


> There is quite a bit more to realistic SD training that I would suggest you take the time to learn for the benefit of your students, if that is a goal for them.



I feel the need to point out that I have instructors who are directly above me, in the same lineage of KKW Taekwondo, whose opinions are more relevant to what I'm doing and teaching because they see what I do and teach. If there was something else I needed for 'realistic' SD training, I'm sure they would point it out. I don't consider most of what I see in self defense classes to be realistic at all, which is why I do sparring instead. Notice that I don't make assumptions or judgement calls about what you teach, because I have no experience with your teaching.

Let's use this as an example. Jimmy goes to a Judo tournament. His first match, another Judo player grabs his jacket and Jimmy reacts by throwing him with an ippon soei nage. That night, Jimmy goes to a bar, and someone takes a punch at him. Jimmy reacts by throwing the guy again with an ippon soei nage. How is dealing with the guy at the bar any different from dealing with Jimmy's Judo opponent? 

That's not even to say that Jimmy will react with a soei nage throw. Maybe he reacts with a simple foot sweep. Either way, it's the same principles he understands from years of Judo, but applied to the guy at the bar and not a fellow Judo player.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 5, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Fine, let's do this again.
> 
> There is a lot that KKW TKD doesn't delve into which is viable and applicable to job interviews, too.



Ok, let's do it again 

We're not talking about job interviews.  We're talking about KKW TKD being, as you termed it, a complete martial art.  We're examining under what definition that term would fit.  Under the definition of sport, hobby, self discovery etc it would probably fit fine.  For SD it doesn't.  That is a professional observation based upon observing both and doing one, on an almost daily basis against real bad guys.  This lends to the next statement;



> I feel the need to point out that I have instructors who are directly  above me, in the same lineage of KKW Taekwondo, whose opinions are more  relevant to what I'm doing and teaching because they see what I do and  teach. If there was something else I needed for 'realistic' SD training,  I'm sure they would point it out.



Perhaps, but what if they don't know anymore about realistic SD than you do?  Don't take this as a jab or as inflammatory.  People can only teach what they have themselves been taught or researched.  KKW TKD isn't really centered around realistic SD.  It is a sport and should be celebrated for that as I've mentioned numerous times.  But not stretched to fill a definition it doesn't fit.  



> Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of  fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge  my eyes or punch my face.
> 
> The absolute essential principles a martial artist learns from full  contact sparring are reading an opponent (essential in SD), distance  control (also essential in SD), how to take a hit (once again) and  timing. What else do I need to know?



In regards to full contact sparring, we disagree.  It is 'a' way but not the best for SD because it in no way, as typically taught, covers the range of training necessary for SD.  It does cover some, as you've listed above.  But if that is all that is being taught to a student, they're being short-changed dramatically because SD isn't a sparring match.  

What else do you need to know?  Have you been reading my posts with an eye towards gaining something out of them?  I've mentioned a plethora of stuff that doesn't fall under 'gouging eyes and punching the face...which by the way is actually a pretty stupid thing to do in a SD situation.  You NEVER punch the face unless you're just totally surprised and it's reactionary or you have no other viable choice.  And this is an example of what instructors who want to teach SD need to know and then teach.  Once again, to cover just a few things, de-escalation, evasion, escape, stun n run, fight or flight, flinch response, OODA loop, gross motor vs. refined motor skills, adrenaline induced responses etc.  Things I've been covering here (and other places) for years.  



> This is a canned answer that demonstrates a lack of consideration to what I'm actually saying, to be honest. Think about it.



You're becoming defensive and there is no need to be.  This isn't a 'your TKD sucks' thread or postings.  If we're discussing TKD as a complete art and are using the SD definition we need to be able to intelligently discuss where it does and where it doesn't fit the definition.  If we're using sport as the definition then lets concentrate on that and I'll tip my hat because you sound like you're more experienced in that area.  But if we're using SD as the definition for 'complete' art, listen to what I'm saying because I live it, and teach it to those that live it and teach it.  Use whatever is applicable to what you teach now and add on where it fits for those of your students that desire SD.  TKD can easily include ground defense that is part of the art and not just an addition to the art, it can include locks/throws that are also a part of the art and not just additional stuff tossed in.  Occasionally classes can be scenario based to have elements of sparring with additional options to de-escalate, escape, evade, use improvised weapons and barriers as well as different stimuli that will affect reactions such as lighting, clothing, weather, surface area, being surprised etc.  The options are limitless and SD students will benefit the most.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 5, 2012)

Again, what else are you thinking I need to know? Is it specific techniques like locks, throws, etc.? Changing clothes, weather, etc does not affect solid principles so that's completely irrelevant like I said earlier. 

I'm far from defensive, maybe exasperated that you're either ignoring, avoiding or not getting my point still. Taekwondo is what it is. By the way my reference to my superiors was really a polite way to ask you not to talk down to me like I'm one of your students. I go out of my way not to be patronizing, I'd appreciate the same courtesy.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 5, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Again, what else are you thinking I need to know? Is it specific techniques like locks, throws, etc.? Changing clothes, weather, etc does not affect solid principles so that's completely irrelevant like I said earlier.



Clothing, weather, contact surfaces, confined areas, lighting, etc can and will affect the proficiency of principles directly.  This is why we train different scenarios in L.E. which have direct applications for any student of the martial arts.  Others have mentioned this in this thread, and others.  It is one thing to be warmed up, stretched out, wearing protective gear with an opponent that is doing the same and adheres to the same rule set.  But that isn't SD.  There are other factors of consideration that are very important.



> I'm far from defensive, maybe exasperated that you're either ignoring,  avoiding or not getting my point still. Taekwondo is what it is. By the  way my reference to my superiors was really a polite way to ask you not  to talk down to me like I'm one of your students. I go out of my way not  to be patronizing, I'd appreciate the same courtesy.



It seemed you were getting defensive and I'm sorry your exasperated.  I'm reading everything you've offered with an open mind.  I simply disagree with you on some points due to my personal experiences and training.  I don't believe I've talked down to you at all, I'm sorry you feel this way.  I've feel like I'm an instructor in one area, discussing a point of interest with another instructor.  That is my intend and tone as I'd like it to be taken.  I've mentioned before that if sport style sparring were an interest to me and my students, I would seek out those that delve deeply into it so that I can learn from them.  Conversely, if someone is interested in SD and how it can be included into their current teaching/training then they should seek out and listen to those that not only teach it successfully but use it successfully.  So, if the definition for complete art is touching on the sport/hobby/social interaction etc side of TKD then we can come into close agreement.  If the definition is SD then I have to point out the _where and why_ KKW TKD isn't a complete art.  That isn't meant to offend anyone although it could be taken to challenge one to consider the experiences of others in this venue.  For me not to discuss things within my realm of experience would be selfish on my part.  Don't take that as arrogant as it isn't meant that way.  We all have areas that we tend to gravitate to based on many factors.  SD just happens to be my area of specialization.  If you don't agree, that's fine.  If you take away just a single thing I offer that does something to enhance you as a student and as a teacher then I've done a good job.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 5, 2012)

Fair enough. Maybe I take things too personally on occasion. 

We've done this a couple of times before, plus we're well off topic. Probably just as well not to keep going around and around.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 5, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Fair enough. Maybe I take things too personally on occasion.
> 
> We've done this a couple of times before, plus we're well off topic. Probably just as well not to keep going around and around.



Nothing personal meant toward you in any regard   I see it as a couple of guys with a passion for the arts.  Thank you for the conversation.


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## WaterGal (Dec 10, 2012)

SPX said:


> I have a few kicks that have little to no martial value that I'd like to learn to do.
> 
> I actually would like to be on a demo team, like the KTigers.  Maybe not quite at that high of a level, but maybe a couple of notches below that.



Doing demos is pretty fun, even if it's not at a high level. I was on the demo team for my GM's school last year, and we just did some local street festivals and stuff like that, but it was good extra training and lots of fun. Does your school have a team? 

For demos you do have to drill a lot as a team (we did 1-2 hours a week, on top of regular classes) to have it consistently look good and come off  smoothly. I mean, it's one thing to do something in front of 20 quiet  people at the school and another to do it in front of 200 loud  strangers at a street festival!  Stage fright and distractions can be an issue.  But it's a pretty great feeling to do a sparring match and have people cheering you, or oohing and aahing when you do a flashy break.


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## Matt.A (Dec 10, 2012)

My right leg round and side kicks are better then my left.   My left front kick and ax kick are better then my right.  I dont do the tornado kick very well at all.  Others in my school have better kicks then me, I have better kicks then others.  We all put forth the effort, learn the poomse and one steps.  We attend class and compatitions.  When our school thinks we are ready to test for black belt, we will test.   If the masters, think we deserve to be a black belt, then we get permoted.   I hope this answered your question.


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## WaterGal (Dec 10, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Full contact sparring is the best way to learn the principles of fighting. Fighting does not change just because you're allowed to gouge my eyes or punch my face.



While I think you and Kong Soo Do both have good points, I do have to disagree with this.  The moves you do, and the moves you anticipate your opponent doing, are a result of the rules you use, and people can develop... sort of blind spots, I guess... I think because your instincts have been trained in particular way based on how you're used to sparring.

In my own experience, I'd done WTF sparring for a couple years before I tried hapkido sport sparring.  Now, the rules for that, at least the ones we use, are basically "WTF + grabs, pushes, and sweeps" and you get points also for putting your opponent on the ground.  And it turns out, a lot of the pretty turn kicks and head shots I love in TKD sparring just don't work as well in sport HKD, because having my leg in the air that much gives them something to grab onto and use as leverage.  I learned by getting my butt handed to me a lot that, even though it looks at lot the same and you wear the same gear, the tactics really have to be different because of the different rules.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 11, 2012)

WaterGal said:


> While I think you and Kong Soo Do both have good points, I do have to disagree with this.  The moves you do, and the moves you anticipate your opponent doing, are a result of the rules you use, and people can develop... sort of blind spots, I guess... I think because your instincts have been trained in particular way based on how you're used to sparring.
> 
> In my own experience, I'd done WTF sparring for a couple years before I tried hapkido sport sparring.  Now, the rules for that, at least the ones we use, are basically "WTF + grabs, pushes, and sweeps" and you get points also for putting your opponent on the ground.  And it turns out, a lot of the pretty turn kicks and head shots I love in TKD sparring just don't work as well in sport HKD, because having my leg in the air that much gives them something to grab onto and use as leverage.  I learned by getting my butt handed to me a lot that, even though it looks at lot the same and you wear the same gear, the tactics really have to be different because of the different rules.



Yes, specific moves change, principles don't. I had to learn some new techniques when I started Judo, but did I have to learn how to fight again? No, and there's no crossover in those rulesets at all. I'd bet if you were asked to do a wrestling or a judo match, you'd do better than you'd expect just because you have an understanding of fighting developed from tkd and hkd. That's usually my experience.

EDIT: I guess it has a bit to do with your learning style as well. I am not one to learn things step by step, I'm a big picture person. Probably why I see things this way. For example, now that I have an understanding of what I'm doing when I spar I don't even really pay attention to my stances, or my hand position, or anything else.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 12, 2012)

Whoever gave me negative reputation on that last post, you might try actually asking me the question on the board so I can answer you. Unless, of course, you don't want an answer and you'd rather pretend you have some sort of superior knowledge when you're actually failing to comprehend the point, which is the problem with MT lately. 

Fighting has the same principles regardless of the rules, which is what I said. Judo and Taekwondo as a martial art are very different, as a sport they are not so different. Distance doesn't change, timing doesn't change, controlling the ring doesn't change. What changes is what techniques you are allowed to use, which once again is secondary to the point.

Thinking about it, it may be a little esoteric of a suggestion for some. I forget sometimes that not everyone learns the same way. Doesn't excuse willful ignorance in favor of what amounts to catch phrases.


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 12, 2012)

A bit off topic, but I'd like to see it be a requirement to put in your screen name when you rep someone. I've received many + rep that I would like to have at least said thank you in return. Conversely, if you get a neg rep it would be nice to have something more substantial than an anonymous drive-by from someone that doesn't agree with you but doesn't leave their name/screen name. That doesn't prove or solve anything.


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2012)

Folks -- the general policy here is not to discuss, and especially complain, about rep in public.  If you have a problem with rep that you receive, please notify a staff member.  The general practice here is to "sign" rep with your username; the current software settings don't automatically share that with users.  Bob may be able to change that; I don't know.


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## ETinCYQX (Dec 12, 2012)

Got it JKS, won't do it again. 





Kong Soo Do said:


> A bit off topic, but I'd like to see it be a requirement to put in your screen name when you rep someone. I've received many + rep that I would like to have at least said thank you in return. Conversely, if you get a neg rep it would be nice to have something more substantial than an anonymous drive-by from someone that doesn't agree with you but doesn't leave their name/screen name. That doesn't prove or solve anything.



I'd rather have the chance to actually explain the point, which I understood wouldn't be taken for granted when I posted it. Other than that I don't care. Who knows, said person might have learned something or maybe I would have. I think a lot of coaches would agree with it though.

although to be honest I don't think disagreeing with a point I was making is a reasonable justification for negative rep, I wasn't being insulting or rude.


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## jks9199 (Dec 12, 2012)

For more on the Reputation System, see this thread.


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## WaterGal (Dec 28, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Yes, specific moves change, principles don't. I had to learn some new techniques when I started Judo, but did I have to learn how to fight again? No, and there's no crossover in those rulesets at all. I'd bet if you were asked to do a wrestling or a judo match, you'd do better than you'd expect just because you have an understanding of fighting developed from tkd and hkd. That's usually my experience.
> 
> EDIT: I guess it has a bit to do with your learning style as well. I am not one to learn things step by step, I'm a big picture person. Probably why I see things this way. For example, now that I have an understanding of what I'm doing when I spar I don't even really pay attention to my stances, or my hand position, or anything else.



I think maybe I misunderstood what you meant.  By "principles", are you talking about the _mindset_ of fighting?  E.g., the heightened alertness, awareness of your (and your opponent's) striking range, ability and willingness to give and take a hit with decent power, etc.


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## Earl Weiss (Dec 28, 2012)

ETinCYQX said:


> Poomsae/Kata, several types of sparring, bunkai. How else?



To a limited extent MMA competition has shown us arts which are primarily striking or grappling are not complete. 

In a broader contect, no (sane) soldier going into combat would want to learn only weaponless styles. 

But then again before a discussion such as this could have any sort of sensible dialogue there would first have to be an agreement as to "What is a "Martial Art"". 

One might argue that combat or sport specific disciplnes lack elements neccessary to be called an "Art".


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 28, 2012)

Unfortunately, a question like, "what is a martial art" falls into the same category as;


What is a black belt?
How long to black belt?
How long from one Dan level to the next?
Is SD better than sport/is sport better than SD?
How many licks does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie Roll sucker?
Ask 20 different people and you'll likely get 20 different answers.  Which is why it is nigh difficult to arrive at a universal answer.  Which is why TKD can be pure sport or pure SD.  Which is why in Korea a child can earn a BB in a year and in other countries it is 3-5 years for the same belt and other arts maybe not till year 10.


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## Tez3 (Dec 28, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> Unfortunately, a question like, "what is a martial art" falls into the same category as;
> 
> 
> What is a black belt?
> ...



And I don't even know what a Tootsie Roll sucker is! sounds rude (hopefully!)


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 28, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> And I don't even know what a Tootsie Roll sucker is! sounds rude (hopefully!)



LOL!  It was an old cartoon commercial when I was a kid.  A Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop is like a lolly pop with a tootsie roll at the center.  You'd lick your way through the lolly pop and then chew on the center.  Funny how useless trivia floats around in the mind:bangahead:


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## Tez3 (Dec 28, 2012)

Kong Soo Do said:


> LOL! It was an old cartoon commercial when I was a kid. A Tootsie Roll Tootsie Pop is like a lolly pop with a tootsie roll at the center. You'd lick your way through the lolly pop and then chew on the center. Funny how useless trivia floats around in the mind:bangahead:



A tootsie..a girl? help me out here, I'm off sick with tonsillitis and need something to really cheer me up lol! Funnily enough everyone else is enjoying the silence because I can't talk, can't imagine why!

Still it gives me time to ponder on what 'poor kicks' are. Some places judge kicks by how technically perfect they _look_ whereas a less perfect looking kick can pack a wallop. Do people want the pretty or the effective?


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## Kong Soo Do (Dec 28, 2012)

Hope you feel better!


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## Daniel Sullivan (Dec 28, 2012)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> How high of a KUKKIWON black belt can a person be at your school and still have poor kicks? I see alot of kids and older adults getting first poom / dan and have poor kicks. I do see it in higher dans but to a lesser extent.
> 
> At your school, can a person never have a decent kick (e.g., a basic tornado kick against a pad, not even in competition) and still rise to a higher black belt (2nd, 3rd, or 4th)? Does age factor in at your school? I read on the forums here previously that KKW starts to get serious about the testing at 4th dan - how about your school?





Gwai Lo Dan said:


> I mean coordinated, reasonably quick,  relatively high (at least stomach height).  Believe it or not, I'm not  trying to insult anyone.  I really am curious how high a person can go  with poor kicks, perhaps due to age, injury issues, or just being very  unathletic.


The school where I trained most recently topped out at fifth because the school owner's rank wasn't high enough to grade anyone any higher than that.  Good attitude, hard work, and commitment go a long way with him.  Students who were over thirty five (and who didn't start at a young age) who reached dan grades tended to kick like thirty five years and older men and women who had been training for three to five years while students who were in their late teens to early twenties who reached dan grades tended to kick like boys and girls in their late teens to early twenties who had been training for the same length of time.  

Aside from maxing out the instructor's ability to promote within the organization, there was no upper limit placed on students from what I could tell, regardless of how perfect/high their kicks were.  If you were a first dan and you could do Koryo well but couldn't kick higher than mid thigh, then you weren't going to win a pumse competition and probably wouldn't do very well sparring in tournaments, but it would not affect your advancement.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 6, 2013)

WaterGal said:


> I think maybe I misunderstood what you meant.  By "principles", are you talking about the _mindset_ of fighting?  E.g., the heightened alertness, awareness of your (and your opponent's) striking range, ability and willingness to give and take a hit with decent power, etc.



The principles of fighting are distance, timing, positioning. They are the essence of combat in any form and they never change. Having fought both grappling and Taekwondo matches over and over again, those three things are the only common ground and, not coincidentally, by far the most important thing to learn. Even more so when the risk is serious injury rather than giving up a point or getting submitted.


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## ETinCYQX (Jan 6, 2013)

Earl Weiss said:


> To a limited extent MMA competition has shown us arts which are primarily striking or grappling are not complete.
> 
> In a broader contect, no (sane) soldier going into combat would want to learn only weaponless styles.
> 
> ...



This is more or less why I think the idea of wanting to be complete in the sense of knowing everything is overrated.


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## Balrog (Jan 11, 2013)

What's a bad kick?  Let's ignore the flash: no butterfly kicks, no jump side kicks, etc.  Let's stick to basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick.

Height is immaterial.  Is the kick powerful?  Are the mechanics there:  chamber, extension, rechamber, recovery?  How about focus, balance and hand position?  If most of those are missing, then one might say the kick is bad.  If they're all there, then it's a good kick.


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## Gwai Lo Dan (Jan 12, 2013)

Balrog said:


> What's a bad kick? ... Let's stick to basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick....Height is immaterial.  Is the kick powerful?  Are the mechanics there:  chamber, extension, rechamber, recovery?  How about focus, balance and hand position?  If most of those are missing, then one might say the kick is bad.  If they're all there, then it's a good kick.



I believe that the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  The proof of the kick is in the speed, power, and accuracy.  Taekwondo is a kicking art, so I don't agree that height is immaterial.  In my opinion, if I say "do your best kick to my head and I won't move" and you can't land a kick to my head, you shouldn't be a BB in TKD.  TKD is a kicking art.  That's not to say that a much lower kick isn't effective, just that to me, a kick to the head is pretty basic.

In terms of the basics "basic front kick, side kick, round kick and maybe a reverse side kick" I think that is a little limited.  Given that TKD is a kicking art, I would add spinning hook kick to the mix.

In my post, when I wrote of a "poor" kick, I was thinking of balance and control. I think if you have those, then the corresponding speed, power and accuracy of that kick are there too.


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## SPX (Jan 12, 2013)

Gwai Lo Dan said:


> In my opinion, if I say "do your best kick to my head and I won't move" and you can't land a kick to my head, you shouldn't be a BB in TKD.  TKD is a kicking art.  That's not to say that a much lower kick isn't effective, just that to me, a kick to the head is pretty basic.



I totally agree, provided we're talking about two fighters of the same height.  If you can't get your leg up that high then, barring some legitimate physical impairment, you're just not trying hard enough.  I've been pretty lazy lately with my flexibility training and am like a foot and a half off the ground with my splits and can still kick head high.


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