# Marc Laimon on Royce Gracie's BJJ - It's actually ****.



## martialtalkfan (May 22, 2008)

http://mmayou.com/news-and-exclusiv...n-on-royce-gracies-jiu-jitsu-its-actually-sht


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## Andy Moynihan (Aug 9, 2008)

Well, that's what happens when you start out with an advantage no one has and you think ok, that's it, you're hot stuff, and then the younger, hungrier ones catch on and then build off of it but you don't follow suit. You may not have lost, but everyone else has gained.

It's the way of things.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 9, 2008)

Interesting.


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## Makalakumu (Aug 9, 2008)

Royce's BJJ is better then mine...


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 10, 2008)

Isn't Laimon the "coach" that Matt Serra was gonna' smack around during the Ultimate Fighter 4?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 10, 2008)

Perpetual White Belt said:


> Isn't Laimon the "coach" that Matt Serra was gonna' smack around during the Ultimate Fighter 4?



Yes he was.


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## Perpetual White Belt (Aug 10, 2008)

Thanks, I wanted to make sure I was thinking of the right person before I commented.  The dude's a disrespectful S.O.B.  While I agree that Royce's skills in MMA aren't on par with the current fighters, his BJJ abilities are as good as the majority of his family.


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## The Anarchist (Aug 10, 2008)

Let us not forget that the Gracies did fight with no rules. But I think Eddie Bravo's tenth planet jujitsu is a better version.


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## lklawson (Aug 11, 2008)

Who cares?

I mean, seriously.  The Gracies have now demonstrated through UFC and the "Gracie Challenge" what hey wanted to demonstrate and their family variant of the art has reaped *MASSIVE* rewards because of it.

Fame, wealth, international recognition...  They got what they wanted out of the deal.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (Aug 11, 2008)

While Royce may or may not be at the top of the BJJ heap, there are many, many Gracies still doing very well.  Roger Gracie, Kyra Gracie and Kron Gracie all jump to mind.  Suffice to say that the Gracie family is quite well represented.

Dogging Royce's MMA skills is a cheap shot.


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## Skpotamus (Aug 12, 2008)

A guy who won't fight MMA trashing an MMA legend that got him into BJJ in the first place?  Methinks somebody thinks too highly of themselves.

Matt Hughes was THE MOST dominant champion in UFC history at that point.  He's been fighting for over 10 years, studying BJJ under a BJJ blackbelt for that entire time, is a physical speciman and was almost 20 years younger than gracie.  Royce losing to him isn't an embarrassment.


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## brianhunter (Aug 12, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> A guy who won't fight MMA trashing an MMA legend that got him into BJJ in the first place? Methinks somebody thinks too highly of themselves.
> 
> Matt Hughes was THE MOST dominant champion in UFC history at that point. He's been fighting for over 10 years, studying BJJ under a BJJ blackbelt for that entire time, is a physical speciman and was almost 20 years younger than gracie. Royce losing to him isn't an embarrassment.


 
Isn't Matt Hughes 32 or 33? That would have made Royce at least 50. How old was he when he did that fight?


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## brianhunter (Aug 12, 2008)

brianhunter said:


> Isn't Matt Hughes 32 or 33? That would have made Royce at least 50. How old was he when he did that fight?


 
Actually 7 years.......

Royce Gracie: Dec 12, 1966

Matt Hughes: October 13, 1973

That is a bit off from 20 years.


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## punisher73 (Aug 12, 2008)

Part of what he says is correct, it's just the delivery that makes him sound so bad.

He is correct in that the MMA game has passed by Royce...so what?  Royce, and others are the ones that started MMA as we see it today.  BJJ was an unknown quantity at the time, and others studied how to beat it, then more was added to the strategy etc.  He was also correct about Royce and the Gracies having "special rules" for many of their matches, many people have commented on that and complained.

He also doesn't seem to draw the distintion that GJJ is more self-defense focused and has a set curriculum of self-defense techniques that is part of what they do, NOT just sport BJJ.  If your focus is ONLY sport competition than it is a legitimate complaint if you aren't staying on top of the game, but if your focus is on using it for the street than you aren't going to use a lot of the latest sports moves.

I actually had more issue with the comments about Rickson Gracie.  I have heard alot of big name BJJ players who have rolled with Rickson and say his skills are phenomonal.  Again, he does not draw a distinction between MMA and BJJ.  Rickson was in his 40's when he fought in Pride and MMA has moved leaps and bounds beyond those earlier years. So what?

He is comparing apples to oranges.  Rickson and Royce were not MMA fighters, at the time they were NHB fighters or Vale Tudo.  They used ONE style and pitted it against another style and won.  The sport has evolved into something else since then.  Now it is it's own style so to speak. Even if they couldn't compete in today's competitions that doesn't take away the skills they gave to others to further progress the direction MMA/BJJ has headed.


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## brianhunter (Aug 12, 2008)

punisher73 said:


> Part of what he says is correct, it's just the delivery that makes him sound so bad.
> 
> He is correct in that the MMA game has passed by Royce...so what? Royce, and others are the ones that started MMA as we see it today. BJJ was an unknown quantity at the time, and others studied how to beat it, then more was added to the strategy etc. He was also correct about Royce and the Gracies having "special rules" for many of their matches, many people have commented on that and complained.
> 
> ...


 
Very well put! I think a lot of consideration should be made into "why" someone is training in something. If you are training for sport it would definitely change your Jiu Jitsu, if you are training to simply be effective, it would make a different approach.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 12, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Royce losing to him isn't an embarrassment.


 
testing positive for steroids afterwards was


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## D Dempsey (Aug 12, 2008)

Twin Fist said:


> testing positive for steroids afterwards was


That was after the Sakuraba fight but is still a good point.


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## Pacificshore (Aug 12, 2008)

Everyone wants their 15min of fame now matter how they get it.  Gracie's set the foundation and it grew from there, nothing more-nothing less..


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## Brian R. VanCise (Aug 12, 2008)

Pacificshore said:


> Everyone wants their 15min of fame now matter how they get it.  Gracie's set the foundation and it grew from there, nothing more-nothing less..



Hard to argue with that.


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## Skpotamus (Aug 12, 2008)

brianhunter said:


> Isn't Matt Hughes 32 or 33? That would have made Royce at least 50. How old was he when he did that fight?


 
Apologies, I was off in my figures for their age.  Royce was only 40 when he fought Hughes.  

Gracie tested positive for steroids after the Sakuraba fight, not the Hughes fight.  There was a thread where I posted pictures of Gracie during the Hughes fight and during the Sakuraba fight.  A huge difference in his physique.  


The point is you've got a guy who won't fight MMA trash talking the first legend of mma's skills for losing an MMA match to one of the most dominant fighters we've seen, and during that fighters prime.


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## Steve (Aug 12, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> The point is you've got a guy who won't fight MMA trash talking the first legend of mma's skills for losing an MMA match to one of the most dominant fighters we've seen, and during that fighters prime.


Agreed. Particularly in a sport so young and clearly evolving.  Look at the guys fighting UFC in the 90s.  It's night and day.  

Again, it's not what Laimon is saying as much as how he's saying it and who he is.  Sort of like the idea that I can scold my brothers as necessary, but no one else better say anything bad!   No one will suggest that MMA hasn't outgrown Royce's training regime.  It's obvious that well rounded skills are critical to compete at that level.  It's that Laimon is very smug for someone who's never stepped into the ring himself.


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## tko4u (Sep 5, 2008)

Lets face it, what has marc accomplished? 

Also, I find it hilarious that matt said the sport passed royce by, and now it seems that the sport has done the same to matt. You did make karma wear a condom, didnt you matt?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Sep 6, 2008)

tko4u said:


> Lets face it, what has marc accomplished?
> 
> Also, I find it hilarious that matt said the sport passed royce by, and now it seems that the sport has done the same to matt. You did make karma wear a condom, didnt you matt?



This is how athletics work.  One moment you are at the top and the next you are not as someone else comes along. 

I do not know Marc but have met with Royce and he always seems like a good guy!


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## Ybot (Sep 6, 2008)

tko4u said:


> Lets face it, what has marc accomplished?


Marc has one of the toughest, most competitive competition teams on the west coast.  At tournaments he's a very loud, arrogant, obnoxious coach, but you can't argue with results.


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## zDom (Sep 8, 2008)

tko4u said:


> Lets face it, what has marc accomplished?
> 
> Also, I find it hilarious that matt said the sport passed royce by, and now it seems that the sport has done the same to matt. You did make karma wear a condom, didnt you matt?



Gracies made a name for themselves and their art by bashing other arts, tailoring a competition to showcase theirs, and crowing about how superior their art is.

And now someone is trying to make a name for himself by bashing a Gracie.

What goes around comes around :shrug:


Personally, I don't think there would have been any shame in losing to a younger man for Royce  IF he would have fought well.

I was disappointed, however, that he seemed to forget fundamentals of his own art during his fight with Hughes when those fundamentals SHOULD have been ingrained.


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## Bigjoemma (Sep 8, 2008)

I train under matt serra in BJJ Who was trained by Renzo, and i think any one who bashes the Gracie family and practices BJJ needs a lesson in respect. MMA is 100% different from the style against style UFC of the past and Royce and all the Gracies deserve respect for what they've done. Marc Laimon needs to learn that.


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## zDom (Sep 9, 2008)

Bigjoemma said:


> I train under matt serra in BJJ Who was trained by Renzo, and i think any one who bashes the Gracie family and practices BJJ needs a lesson in respect. MMA is 100% different from the style against style UFC of the past and Royce and all the Gracies deserve respect for what they've done. Marc Laimon needs to learn that.



Only the Gracies? What about all the other martial artists and what THEY have done?

While I personally respect the Gracies for that they have done, you are going to be hard pressed to demand respect for them when they built their name up by disrespecting other arts.


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## Bigjoemma (Sep 10, 2008)

i Belive all martial artist need to respect one another and yes i belive what the Gracie's did was wrong but that doesnt mean we should go arond bashing them back. Eye for an Eye isnt right


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## zDom (Sep 10, 2008)

Bigjoemma said:


> i Belive all martial artist need to respect one another and yes i belive what the Gracie's did was wrong but that doesnt mean we should go arond bashing them back. Eye for an Eye isnt right



I agree.


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## lklawson (Sep 11, 2008)

Bigjoemma said:


> i Belive all martial artist need to respect one another


Why?  I mean, I like it, personally, and all, but it seems that the idea of "mutual respect" is extremely NEW in terms of martial arts.  "Traditionally" (as it were) it was par for the course to denigrate other styles in order to build up your own reputation.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Skpotamus (Sep 12, 2008)

lklawson said:


> Why? I mean, I like it, personally, and all, but it seems that the idea of "mutual respect" is extremely NEW in terms of martial arts. "Traditionally" (as it were) it was par for the course to denigrate other styles in order to build up your own reputation.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 

I honestly liked what the Gracies did.  You had a lot of people claiming their style was the greatest and they could simply KO a grappler before they hit the ground, the gracies challenged them, typically made them look completely clueless in the fight, which made a lot of people try to fill the holes in their game.  It exposed a lot of people for the frauds they were and let some people see what their techniques actually could do in a live fight.  It also brought about another revolution in training methodology, kind of an extension to Bruce Lee's revolution, that emphasized functionality over tradition.  

There were some schools training alive before this, but they were nowhere near as common as they are today.


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## Shaolin Bushido (Sep 12, 2008)

Royce does "classic" style Jiu Jitsu and he was never the best at any point in his life.  Laimon would kick his butt in a grappling contest fo sho.   Also, I doubt it would be a walk in the park for every "real" fighter to whoop up on Laimon even in MMA cuz the guy trains; he just doesn't have the itch to fight.  Grappling is his passion.

Rickson would beat him though, especially with no time constraints.  I've seen Laimon beat Monson, Lister, Rorions' boy(Ralek?) and a bunch of other good grapplers and he is very good at mapping out gameplans in respect to the given rules.  He often does the fight strategy for many of his mma proteges as well.


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## zDom (Sep 12, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> I honestly liked what the Gracies did.  You had a lot of people claiming their style was the greatest and they could simply KO a grappler before they hit the ground, the gracies challenged them, typically made them look completely clueless in the fight, which made a lot of people try to fill the holes in their game.  It exposed a lot of people for the frauds they were and let some people see what their techniques actually could do in a live fight.  It also brought about another revolution in training methodology, kind of an extension to Bruce Lee's revolution, that emphasized functionality over tradition.
> 
> There were some schools training alive before this, but they were nowhere near as common as they are today.



I also like the results. It needed doing.

But they COULD have accomplished it without the smack talk &#8212; their actions surely would have spoken loud enough with it. But then, from what I've seen, that is part of being Brazilian 

But surely this is a case of if you dish it out, need to be ready to eat it, too. And Laimon, I'm sure, will soon have HIS turn at eating it.

"Ka is a wheel" &#8212; Roland "The Gunslinger" Deschain
"The ka-ka that goes around, comes around" &#8212; something Eddie from Roland's ka-tat would probably say


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