# What is Kenpo? How do we define it?



## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 12, 2011)

The back and forth with ATACX on the forums has brought this up for me again. Saying, "You'll know it when you see it" seemed a bit weak, but also true.

Mr. Parker moved with blazing speed, through movements that encompassed circular paths, semi-circular paths, and straight ones. His moves also contained a level of complexity, multiplicity, and sophistication. And you didn't get to go anywhere that he didn't let you. (that has consistently been a delineator of real mastery, in my experience. Mr. Parker, Rickson Gracie, Wally Jay, all of them... you never got to go somewhere without their "permission", and often the 'natural' routes of self-extrication put you right where they wanted you, again).

Anyone remember the Double Parry? Inward parry with the right hand, outward with the left. Chatting with Mr. P. one evening about the opening movement of a technique that included the double parry, the topic strayed to "sophisticating" basics, and "complex vs. complicated basics". Simply put, having the same move do more than one thing. He demo'd the double parry as is, slapping off the punch. Then demo'd having the Inward Parry become an Inward Hooking Parry/Grab, which held the caught punch in place and hyperextended the arm by yanking on it, before the Outward parry forearm came up hard as a strike behind the elbow, ideally for a break. The next permutation had the left hand becoming an uppercut finger spear to the eyes, converting into an outward slicing movement, palm down. The next one hit with the uppercut finger spear motion, while ALSO hitting the back of the elbow. Then, discussing point of origin to point of contact, he rotated his palm downward again, but in the action of dropping a palm-heel onto the humerus of the extended arm. There was more, but I don't wanna bore any readers.

Anyway, each move of the technique was demonstrated both as a part of the flow of the technique, and as a thing all on its own, as a jumping off point into isolations of that basic that demonstrated multiple purposes for a single motion. Sped up, the moves looked just like the simple, early, embryonic version of the technique... if you hadn't just been walked through the twicksy multiple apps, you would not have had the eye to see them as they went by in the final demo's product. What DID give it away was the change in sound... instead of "BAP-BAP-BAP", you would hear, "Be-bo-BAP-bada-BAP-be-buh-BAP", like small drum rolls hidden inside the major rhythm of the standard technique.

This became, for me, the pan-ultimate expression of Advanced American Kenpo Concepts. The little inserts and complex/sophisticated re-interpretations of movements that turned a 5 shot technique into a symphony of more than a dozen injury-causing movements, but taking no less time. As time has gone by, I STILL hold that as the ultimate expression of kenpo.

For any who have been witness to what I refer to as the Throne Wars, there were a lot of guys who claimed to be the shnizzle after Mr. P left us. Some claimed rank, while others claimed time spent, or first black belt, or most favorite lawn cutter, or last to get trained at the house... whatever. The thing I looked for, despite the claims made for uniqueness and superiority, was simple: Are they going BAP-BAP-BAP, or is the drum playing a little jazzier than that? I know of 2 seniors who hate each others' guts... did before the throne wars, moreso after. Fun part for me was seeing that both have the multi-rhythm thing Mr. Parker had. Even though they can't stand each other, their "motion genetics" are clear to see, and nobody watching them -- who was familiar with Mr. Parkers approach to moving -- would deny they came from the same roots.

In contrast, there are other guys with equal time-in, and a whole lotta red, but who completely lack that whipping, popping, semi-circular cuisinart of doom thing. Saw one demo recently with some 8th and 9ths in it, all well respected in the kenpo world for their seniority. Not a good percussionist in the whole lot. Looked like hard-style karate guys who had learned the Parker sequences, but not the "how to move" parts of the system. It was certainly solid, and would certainly hurt the guy they hit with it, but... and here's the tricky question: Was it Parker kenpo?

Mr. Parker went through several stages of development, modifying his applications to reflect his expanding awareness of the nature of martial movement. Some people left before they got this; some lived far away, and never learned it, even though they held high offices in Mr. P's organization; some were told to do it, but couldn't get out of their own way; and so on. Basically, very few "got it". But they all do Five Swords, Short 1, Long 4, and so on.

So... is the body of work left behind to be the sets of movement sequences, or should it be the NATURE OF DELIVERY?

My vote is NATURE OF DELIVERY. I know a few seniors and semi-seniors who agree with me, but must remain out of the discussion loop for political reasons. As for the rest of y'all, what do you think? What defines American Kenpo... is it the collection of moves, or the style of movement delivery?

D.


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## marlon (Apr 13, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The back and forth with ATACX on the forums has brought this up for me again. Saying, "You'll know it when you see it" seemed a bit weak, but also true.
> 
> Mr. Parker moved with blazing speed, through movements that encompassed circular paths, semi-circular paths, and straight ones. His moves also contained a level of complexity, multiplicity, and sophistication. And you didn't get to go anywhere that he didn't let you. (that has consistently been a delineator of real mastery, in my experience. Mr. Parker, Rickson Gracie, Wally Jay, all of them... you never got to go somewhere without their "permission", and often the 'natural' routes of self-extrication put you right where they wanted you, again).
> 
> ...


 

I have no place answering the above question.  I very much enjoyed te post and suggest that you can "bore" me to death if you like, sir.  Here or through private email.
Many thanks
Marlon


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## Bob White (Apr 13, 2011)

You bring up some interesting points Dr. Crouch. As some of you know I have an interest in other athletics as well as over 46 years in Ed Parker`s Kenpo. The way someone executes their kenpo is based on education as well as physical attributes. I often hear people state that they would want to move like Ed Parker, who was certainly impressive to watch. I don`t. I want to move with the education I received from him and other exposures throughout the years. Benny Urquidez does not move like Ed Parker, but there is no doubt he is an outstanding martial artist. I want to move to the best of my abilities by keeping myself fit and continuing to develop my skills. I will never be finished in my desire to become better and I normally spend 8 hrs. a day 5 days a week on the matt as part of my journey. I have done this for over 40 years. While I enjoy watching skilled people perform their version of EPAK and realize I can always learn new things, I believe it time better spent working on my own art.
I would like to clarify that Ed Parker gave us the tools to develop our own style. He talked often of the difference between buying a suit off the rack or having one tailored to fit. The art is tailored to fit.
Good topic David, and I look forward to responses on the subject.
Respectfully,
Bob White


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 13, 2011)

Bob White said:


> You bring up some interesting points Dr. Crouch. As some of you know I have an interest in other athletics as well as over 46 years in Ed Parker`s Kenpo. The way someone executes their kenpo is based on education as well as physical attributes. I often hear people state that they would want to move like Ed Parker, who was certainly impressive to watch. I don`t. I want to move with the education I received from him and other exposures throughout the years. Benny Urquidez does not move like Ed Parker, but there is no doubt he is an outstanding martial artist. I want to move to the best of my abilities by keeping myself fit and continuing to develop my skills. I will never be finished in my desire to become better and I normally spend 8 hrs. a day 5 days a week on the matt as part of my journey. I have done this for over 40 years. While I enjoy watching skilled people perform their version of EPAK and realize I can always learn new things, I believe it time better spent working on my own art.
> I would like to clarify that Ed Parker gave us the tools to develop our own style. He talked often of the difference between buying a suit off the rack or having one tailored to fit. The art is tailored to fit.
> Good topic David, and I look forward to responses on the subject.
> Respectfully,
> Bob White


 
Thank you for responding, Sir. As you know, a lot of the Seniors don't reply on these boards, for one reason or another, so I am grateful that you have.

I continually flip-flop in my mind about tailoring as an overused concept. There are performance parameters which represent, in my mind, an "ideal". Meaning, certain activities and athletic endeavors have top-level expressions. I recently posted a link on facebook to an amazing Polish gymnast doing multiple maneuvers on a springboard run. He is squat, compact, and very strong within his body type. I am too long, lanky and comparatively weak to ever achieve that level of expertise or perfomance in gymnastics. My long bones and long torso would prevent me being able to hit that performance level, no matter how many hours I practiced at it. By the time I was done tailoring his routine for my body type, it would look nothing like what he does. 

Kenpo, as a system, contains components of variable expansion -- any number of combinations is possible, from any starting point (also rings a bell with Bohms holism ideas). This makes it tailorable for any body type, and applicable from any initial position. That being said, I also recall reading in an article or book, a statement by Mr. Parker that he had started designing kenpo for the Western frame, because we were built differently than the smaller, stockier Asians who were dominating the martial arts scene during its inception in the States. Observations like this always border on being politically incorrect, but as a guy who can't easily find shirts off the rack to fit my odd frame (broad shoulders, no chest, and long torso), I can't help but think he was onto something.

Leading me to an extension of the idea of defining kenpo. Where is the balance between striving for an ideal (i.e., a top flight gymnasts routine, which clearly has right and wrong ways of doing things, both mechanically and aesthetically), and tailoring approaches and perspectives to fit ones individuality? (My long torso makes me a surfboard of position opportunities for BJJ guys, so I never compete in that arena... feels like going into boxing with the unlucky birthmark of a target on the tip of my chin. Still, I love the art, so I train in it for exercise and personal prep, never having learned the scoring system for tournament play).

There are always individual differences. Does that mean we stop training for an ideal, or redefine the ideal? And, at which point in the journey do we cease striving for clearer definitions in performance of what that ideal should look like?

There seem to be philosophical polarities, with one side being "There is a perfect external ideal, and we need to constantly make adjustments to our internal approach until our external performance matches that ideal", and the other being "The ideal is subjectively defined, and the process of improvement is expressing the subjective, because it IS the ideal" on the other.

I think there is a balance between the two poles, but admittedly I am awful at seeing shades of gray.

At what point does tailoring go from being "tailoring to adjust to individual differences", to "tailoring as giving up on trying to match an ideal"? Each position has merits, and each can be the source of abuse of the other side of the fence. So, what does the balance look like? When does tailoring equal adapting to individual talents, capabilities and preferences, and when does it constitute a justification for giving up the strive towards an ideal?

Should probably have started another thread for this. 

D.


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## yorkshirelad (Apr 13, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Anyway, each move of the technique was demonstrated both as a part of the flow of the technique, and as a thing all on its own, as a jumping off point into isolations of that basic that demonstrated multiple purposes for a single motion. Sped up, the moves looked just like the simple, early, embryonic version of the technique... if you hadn't just been walked through the twicksy multiple apps, you would not have had the eye to see them as they went by in the final demo's product. What DID give it away was the change in sound... instead of "BAP-BAP-BAP", you would hear, "Be-bo-BAP-bada-BAP-be-buh-BAP", like small drum rolls hidden inside the major rhythm of the standard technique.
> 
> D.


Unfortunatley, I didn't know Mr. Parker, but it seems that his Kenpo was influenced by the Arnis of Mr. Emperado and maybe even Mr. Planas, along with a smattering of Danzan Ryu and his Grandmother's lua. I think EPAK is define by the concepts, principles and, yes I'm gonna say it, the techniques of EPAK. It seems to me that Mr. Parker wanted a franchize system that people from other arts could learn and teach. It's possible for Shotokan stylist to learn the concepts, apply the principles and teach the techniques, all the while retaining the hard, linear style of Shotokan. It's also possible for the Arnisador to do the same, but his Kenpo will retain the traps, circular motion and the sensitivity drills we can see in Mr. Planas' ans Fowler's styles.

I think Mr. Chapel stated on another thread a few years ago that Mr. Parker never used the term American Kenpo or EPAK. I could be wrong, but Doc said that Mr. Parker used the term Kenpo Karate. This might just be semantics, but maybe American Kenpo is now something inspired by Mr. Parker, but from the instructors teaching now, twenty years after his death.

I had the treat of speaking to Mr. White a few months ago and expressed frustration at never being able to be taught by Mr. Parker. I was 15 when he passed and had only been training a short time. Mr. White told me that there ha never been a better time to learn American Kenpo. That's when I understood that we can actually choose our American Kenpo style through our instructor, all the while learning the same system. We can choose between the "Bap-Bap-Bap" and the "Be-bo-bap-bada-bap-be-buh-BAP" and it's all American Kenpo.


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## Bob White (Apr 14, 2011)

What DID give it away was the change in sound... instead of "BAP-BAP-BAP", you would hear, "Be-bo-BAP-bada-BAP-be-buh-BAP", like small drum rolls hidden inside the major rhythm of the standard technique.
Dr. David Crouch

Again Dave, thanks for the thought provoking post. Your comments reminded me of the Ed Parker quote, "to hear is to doubt". The sounds we hear do not neccessarily mean that the technique is a good one. We have all seen demonstrations of people with outstanding hand speed that do not have proper body mechanics. What happens is that you have speed with no mass. Slapping without power. There are also black belts who look fantastic demonstrating on their partners when they are the only ones hitting, but that is the subject of another post. There are many very talented black belts in kenpo and some of the hardest hitters are not always big guys. They are people that get the most out of their weapons with proper technique. If you get someone with size and technique then of course you have the best of both worlds. In almost all athletics is all about the technique. Mike Stone used to say, "It`s technique, not physique".
In developing your style I believe it would be to a students advantage to research other athletics to find out their methods of getting power in their striking. I fully believe if you want to improve your striking skills in Form 7, as an example, you can benefit from watching slow motion tapes of tennis players or baseball players hitting the ball. Many times when I watch someone doing this form it is obvious they have not spent much time hitting anything. The application of supination and pronation is certainly a method of getting more power.
I believe we have models to immulate and learn from, I just don`t believe it it one person to fit all.
Thanks again,
Bob White


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Apr 14, 2011)

Bob White said:


> What DID give it away was the change in sound... instead of "BAP-BAP-BAP", you would hear, "Be-bo-BAP-bada-BAP-be-buh-BAP", like small drum rolls hidden inside the major rhythm of the standard technique.
> Dr. David Crouch
> 
> Again Dave, thanks for the thought provoking post. Your comments reminded me of the Ed Parker quote, "to hear is to doubt". The sounds we hear do not neccessarily mean that the technique is a good one. We have all seen demonstrations of people with outstanding hand speed that do not have proper body mechanics. What happens is that you have speed with no mass. Slapping without power. There are also black belts who look fantastic demonstrating on their partners when they are the only ones hitting, but that is the subject of another post. There are many very talented black belts in kenpo and some of the hardest hitters are not always big guys. They are people that get the most out of their weapons with proper technique. If you get someone with size and technique then of course you have the best of both worlds. In almost all athletics is all about the technique. Mike Stone used to say, "It`s technique, not physique".
> ...


 
Thanks again. And I completely agree. Lotsa kenpo folk talk about generatig power in their blows from torso rotation, but don't move their torso's. I am reminded -- whenever see people splitting their mass in punches, instead of creating unified forces -- of shot-putters, javeline throwers, and -- of course -- pitchers and quarterbacks. Amateur athletes have their deep desire for gold medals and world records as inspiration, while professional athletes have multi-million dollar paychecks to consider. In either case, we have people who reach the pinnacle of their potential by applying hard work, physical development, and biomechanics to generating the greatest amount of controlled and directed force potential in a motion as they can muster.

I can't help but think Elway & Marino might know a little something about generating momentum into a heavy right hand, and the coordination between feet, body, and appendage it takes to do it really well, consistently; or that a shotput Olympic coach or athlete might have something to offer about devastating palm-heels.

One of the things i continue to appreciate about the training at your school is the development and application of athleticism to training. I can't keep up, but still appreciate it.  

Thanks again for offering your insights and experience!

D.


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## Bob White (Apr 17, 2011)

My full time job since 1968 is to help people improve their skills. I have no doubt in my mind that the information in the DVD "A Purpose Driven Journey to Success", helps to give some tools that enable this to happen 



I posted on Facebook that everyone wants to improve and this is a way to do it.
Respectfully,
Bob White


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## yorkshirelad (Apr 17, 2011)

Bob White said:


> My full time job since 1968 is to help people improve their skills. I have no doubt in my mind that the information in the DVD "A Purpose Driven Journey to Success", helps to give some tools that enable this to happen
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I love this DVD! It works on many levels. Mr. White speaks like a coach who could benefit any athlete performing any sport. He's truly inspirational. Many of the reflexive and plyometric drills performed in the DVD, I am performing myself. I don't typically train with my wife (we have completely different goals) but the drills Mr. White teaches are something both my wife and I can do together. There are also some outstanding competition moments used as inspirational fillers. If you study this DVD and apply the principles taught in it, it will definately elevate your game physically and mentally.


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## Inkspill (Apr 18, 2011)

I believe it is important to develop the correct movements and get to the sophisticated level, so... both.

basically, following the stages, phases, and states, we build to that level of sophistication. it takes the perfection of the basics of movement first, but also the correct application and intention of the movements to be effective. without correct basics of technique how can you get to the sophisticated level and still be effective?


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## Flying Crane (Apr 18, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> Thanks again. And I completely agree. Lotsa kenpo folk talk about generatig power in their blows from torso rotation, but don't move their torso's. I am reminded -- whenever see people splitting their mass in punches, instead of creating unified forces -- of shot-putters, javeline throwers, and -- of course -- pitchers and quarterbacks. Amateur athletes have their deep desire for gold medals and world records as inspiration, while professional athletes have multi-million dollar paychecks to consider. In either case, we have people who reach the pinnacle of their potential by applying hard work, physical development, and biomechanics to generating the greatest amount of controlled and directed force potential in a motion as they can muster.
> 
> I can't help but think Elway & Marino might know a little something about generating momentum into a heavy right hand, and the coordination between feet, body, and appendage it takes to do it really well, consistently; or that a shotput Olympic coach or athlete might have something to offer about devastating palm-heels.
> 
> D.


 

In my opinion you are looking for answers in the wrong places.  

The points you make about athetics are well made, but the context is very different.  Martial arts is not athletics in the same way that a shot-putter or javelin thrower is athletics.  If you study the methods of a shot putter with the intent of doctoring up your palm heel, you will end up with a powerful palm heel that is not useable in the context of self defense.

I concede that there is a great deal of theoretical knowledge that one might glean from studying athletics, but I think a lot of it is not directly transferrable to martial arts, because martial arts and self defense is a unique thing of its own and has its own demands and concerns that must be kept in context.  Things like, I cannot commit so heavily to that palm heel that I'm utterly stretched out and thrown completely off balance even if I land the strike.  But that's what you'll get if you palm-heel like a shot-putter.

I'd say the answers you might be looking for are probably found in the traditional Chinese and Okinawan arts, tho like the martial arts as a whole it seems finding a truly knowledgeable instructor in these arts is getting more and more difficult.  But I think you'll find more fruit looking in that direction.  The wheel has already been invented.  You don't need to invent it again yourself.


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## MJS (Apr 25, 2011)

Kembudo-Kai Kempoka said:


> The back and forth with ATACX on the forums has brought this up for me again. Saying, "You'll know it when you see it" seemed a bit weak, but also true.
> 
> Mr. Parker moved with blazing speed, through movements that encompassed circular paths, semi-circular paths, and straight ones. His moves also contained a level of complexity, multiplicity, and sophistication. And you didn't get to go anywhere that he didn't let you. (that has consistently been a delineator of real mastery, in my experience. Mr. Parker, Rickson Gracie, Wally Jay, all of them... you never got to go somewhere without their "permission", and often the 'natural' routes of self-extrication put you right where they wanted you, again).
> 
> ...


 
I would say nature of delivery followed by the techniques.  I would say that because of the unique way we do things.  I really dont see many other arts, aside from other Ken(m)po based arts, do things the way we do.  I say the techs. after, because those are, IMO, simply a complilation of the way we deliver the basics.


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## silvestre (May 10, 2011)

is a way of life.

best regards


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