# The College Scam,  Higher education isn't worth the cost. - John Stossel



## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

The College Scam
Higher education isn't worth the cost
John Stossel | July 7, 2011



> What do Michael Dell, Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, and Mark Cuban have in common?
> They're all college dropouts.
> What do Richard Branson, Simon Cowell, and Peter Jennings have in common?
> They never went to college at all.
> ...


Read More: http://reason.com/archives/2011/07/07/the-college-scam


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

It's an interesting article, and makes a number of points I've been saying for years.

Now, some trades, you need college.
Medicine for one.
I really do expect that the guy cutting into me had some formal training, and didnt just spend 4 years in his moms basement with a copy of grey's anatomy.

But, do you need college to be a gardener? A mechanic? A brick layer? How about a plumber, or electrician, or office manager, or department store assistant?

Nope.  Most of those careers you can learn on your own, through trade associations, or on the job.

I'm self taught at photography.  Had a few mentors over the years give me some tips and tricks, but not a single class room hour in any institute of higher education.
I did go to school for programming. Learned BASIC, PASCAL and MODULA2.
I learned them in a day when the in-demand languages were FORTRAN and C.
I did go to school for computer repair. Learned on 8008 systems in a day when the 80386 was king.
I learned how to identify dodgy resistors and capacitors and replace them, in a day when the guys in the field would just swap out the dud parts, not repair them.
I was also told repeatedly by instructors and advisors that "No one makes money writing video games".  Pretty stupid now huh? At the time though, gaming was only a multi-million $$ industry, not the huge multi-billion dollar one it is today.
I was told that BASIC, with it's 11 statements was the programming language of the future.  Anyone program in BASIC lately?
I was told that the idea of people communicating over a computer network was a fad, and would never take off.  I'd written a BBS program at that time, and BBS's as many remember are the precursors to forums such as this one.

In fact, most of what my trusted advisors and instructors told me back then in the stone age 90's, turned out to be wrong.
Funny how Star Trek got more right than they did.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

Penn & Teller also took a look at the College idea.













I don't agree with some parts, but my experience says they're pretty spot on in a lot of areas.


My view is, go if you want to go, go for the experience, go to broaden your mind, go if the degrees mean something to you, and def. go if you need the classes and paper for your career path.

Don't go if you're pushed to, or if your big aspiration is to drive a truck, punch a retail job time clock, or just get by.

And keep in mind that many a Starbucks barrista, garbage collector, and burger flipper has a degree.


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## billc (Jul 8, 2011)

I heard Stossel interviewed thursday morning, he usually hits the radio circuit the day of his show, and he pointed out the huge amounts of remedial work a lot of entering freshmen have to do because their high school didn't get the job done.  He makes a valid point that the high school education needs to take care of the basics for life, reading, writing and basic mathematics, the way it used to.

Great videos by the way.  John Stossel is always great and Penn and Teller are great, I just wish they wouldn't throw in the topless women in all of their shows.  Not that I mind that it just can distract from the show a bit.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

People graduate from high school unable to balance a check book, read or write.  
College grads still often are unable to balance a check book.

One discussion I had with someone involved in the industry stated 'You go to college to show you can be trained.'. 

One potential employer told me that "a liberal arts degree in basket weaving" would make me more employable than 2 years of actual real world on the job experience.
(I'd been working as an on-site admin the previous two years, had Comptia and Microsoft certifications, yet wasn't qualified for an entry-level tech job because I lacked at least a 2 yr degree in anything. The 'basket weaving' comment is a quote from the recruiter)


My experience has been kinda like this:


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## Carol (Jul 8, 2011)

Here's a counterpoint.   Do you *need* a degree to be a plumber?  No.  But be the plumber with the degree and you stand a far better chance of being the plumber that other plumbers call boss.     My plumber has a BSME, and he has impressed me to the point where I have recommended him to people all over the Boston area.  (If anyone in MA/NH wants a REALLY good plumber for fair rates, lemme know ) 

I don't think anyone should fall in to the trap of thinking college is about education.   Its not.  One of the best universities in the area for Computer Science and Engineering is UMass Lowell, where I attend as a continuing ed student working on my 2nd Bachelors.    My C/C++ was harder than a friend who took a nearly identical class at Yale.   So why is Yale revered as this hallowed hall of educational rigor, while no one outside of New England has heard of UMass Lowell?    Because at UMass Lowell you study with rank and file brainiacs trying to get a job at Raytheon...at Yale you study with brainiacs who are kids and grandkids of old money, corporate magnates, and international uberlords.  College isn't just about education, its about networking.  Success in every field is tied to WHO you know, not just what you know.

My advice is...go.  Go before kids and car payment and credit cards tie you to a job and tie down your options.  Go so your lack of education doesn't get between you and what you want to do, or where you want to be.  Go because regardless of what you do for a living, you are undeniable proof that you are a person that takes on a years-long commitment and sees it through to the end, even if things get tough, even if its no fun.   And once you're there, work it.  Maximize not only your education, but your networking as well.   Challenge yourself and push yourself as far as you can. 

Unless...you really don't want to be in college.  If you really don't want to be there, then stay home.  Please.  The rest of us that are making the sacrifices, paying the cash and busting our butts don't need you and your "issues" in the classroom.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> People graduate from high school unable to balance a check book, read or write.
> College grads still often are unable to balance a check book.
> 
> One discussion I had with someone involved in the industry stated 'You go to college to show you can be trained.'.
> ...



Sadly, there is a point to it that you are one up on the latter if you have a degree in something that isn't even job related.
Seen it before.

However I have to agree that there are a lot of professions out there that pay pretty damn well and you do not need a degree. but you gotta actually _work _and get dirty.


(and LOL on the movie clip: that's not a movie often referenced!)


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## crushing (Jul 8, 2011)

I haven't read the Reason article yet, however, I did search it for "bank" and didn't find any results, so it must not go in to any details as to the who set us up the high college cost scam.


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## billc (Jul 8, 2011)

One of the problems that lead to higher cost is the fact that the government gives out grants and backs the student loans.  Knowing that students will get money from the government allows them to raise college tuition beyond almost any other business would be able to do.

http://www.highereducation.org/crosstalk/ct0598/voices0598-hauptman.shtml

From the article:

At the very least, however, the tremendous growth in the availability of 
federal loans has facilitated the ability of both public and private colleges to 
raise their tuitions at twice the rate of inflation for nearly two decades 
without experiencing decreases in enrollment or other clear signs of consumer 
resistance. In particular, it seems evident that private colleges could not have 
stabilized their share of total enrollments over the past two decades without 
the tremendous expansion in federal loan availability.


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## RandomPhantom700 (Jul 8, 2011)

Yeah, uh, what Carol said.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 8, 2011)

I have three degrees, one of them a Masters and I earn less than an uneducated mate of mine who works a production line building diggers.  Now I'd rather have my job than his but some days I get depressed by the essential dichotomy between educations costs (of all types) and the supposed rewards.  

To give another example, one of the Directors of the company I work for quit his Directorship to go and be an electrician and he makes more money at that!

EDIT:  When I say uneducated I meant "not college educated" rather than "never been to school" :lol:


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## crushing (Jul 8, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> EDIT: When I say uneducated I meant "not college educated" rather than "never been to school" :lol:



I think the correct term is "differently educated."


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

I can make the same amount ($7.25/hr btw) in either of these:

Entry level burger flipper at any local fast food place.
Cashier at any local supermarket or convenience store.
Deli clerk at the supermarket
stockboy at any department store, supermarket of convenience store.

I can also make the same amount at these:
Tier 1 help desk at several local ISP's.
Cable installer.
Wiring installer.
Customer Service Rep at a local bank.
Photographer at Sear or JC Penny's portrait studios.
Computer repair tech at several local shops.
HTML coder at a local web shop.
Graphics Designer at same shop 

Now, compare the first batch to the second batch.  You need to know more for batch #2.  
What all of #2 has in common is that I was told I was NOT qualified to do those jobs, because I lack a college degree in -ANYTHING-.

My resume:
3 years Windows NT network Admin for medium sized manufacturer.
A+ Certification.
Windows 95/98 MCP's from Microsoft. (expired)
Adobe Photoshop certification (PS5, expired)
A binder of other certifications in countless products, systems and OS's.
10+ years real-experience as a Linux Server Admin (guess what OS is on this server?)
10+ years web design, graphics design, and photography.
Certifications in HTML, Javascript, Perl, CSS, PHP and MySQL.
And more. 

But, unless I have a 2 yr degree in anything, even "history of the mushroom", I'm deemed unqualified to do what I'm already doing at a 95% pay cut.
It's hilarious. 
It's comical.
It's insulting.

Now, I've thought about going back to school. There are subjects I'm interested in, things I'd love to dig into.
Plus, college girls are cute and it's a great place to meet potential models. 
But, unless I were to decide to go in to one of the fields that absolutely needs the paper trail and associated knowledge, it doesn't seem worth the time-sink, and huge bills.

I've also thought about going for an MBA.  Still am. Right now, prereqs and $$ are the hold ups.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

well, get the 2 year degree in sculpting with potato salad...

no, I mean something you like. Apparently it does not matter if it is about the chemical composition of toe jam...

But yeah, this is absolutely infuriating.


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2011)

As a teacher, I am tired of being told that *all* students need to be prepared for college.  There are too many students going to college because it's "expected" who don't want to go, who want careers better suited to on-the-job or trade school training, who end up with a useless - or worse, only partially completed - degree, and a boatload of debt.  

This is a post I made on another site where the same question came up, in the context of paying for your kids' education or your own retirement:

One hundred years ago, it was a rare student who went to secondary  school (7th grade and up).  Those who did not attend secondary school  learned a trade and went to work.  Fifty years later, completing high  school became the expectation; again, those who did not attend further  education learned a trade and went to work.  Programs to teach trades  abounded in the school system.  Now, it is the expectation of the  government that all students - interested or not, prepared or not,  appropriate or not - complete college.  Programs to teach trades have  been massively cut to expand college prep programs.  Federally mandated  testing drives school curricula in Math, Science, English, and Foreign  Language.  Classes that teach practical life skills, such as Home  Economics and Industrial Arts (Shop), and those that teach life  activities such as PE, Art and Music, are being dropped willy-nilly in  the rush to prepare all students for college.  Many districts are  dropping PE entirely, or requiring students to complete their PE  requirements outside of school at their own expense.  The  extra-curricular activities that keep many students in school - sports  and clubs - are being dropped for financial reasons.  This leads to many  students enrolling in college who don't want to be there, who are not  prepared mentally or emotionally for the rigors of college.


This  is not the fault of the colleges entirely, nor is it entirely the fault  of the schools. It is a societal issue - the idea that all students *must *attend  college, regardless of interest or ability - which is driving this  problem.  Colleges are businesses, and their business is to get students  in the door.  Businesses use a college degree as a screener to sort  applications - in many cases, the nature of the degree is not relevant,  only the applicant's ability to complete college.  At some point,  society as a whole will need to return to the time when completing high  school meant that the student was ready to *either* go on to further education *or*  enter the world of work - and students could pick which one they  wanted, and take classes appropriate to that choice.  But that is no  longer the case - the push is for college as a be-all and end-all.  The  increasing number of students applying to college who are in need of  remedial instruction is due largely to the increased push for _everyone_  to attend college whether they are suited to it or not.  Providing  these classes is expensive.  Other factors affect cost as well - not the  least of which is the cost of providing financial aid for a variety  students; colleges provide much of their aid themselves, by increasing  costs to build the funds they use for loans and grants, as federal and  state funding for student aid steadily decreases... as more students  needing significant aid apply, overall costs rise so that needy students  can attend - the cycle is accelerating.  Add to this the preference for  "desirable" colleges, causing students to bypass less expensive options  like community colleges, and the preference of many employers for a  4-year degree, the less-expensive options are also becoming more  expensive as their population drops. 


This leads back to the  original concern:  parents helping students pay for college because the  costs are rising so high.  If society as a whole is going to say that  all students must go to college, then society needs to step up to pay  for it.  In the meantime, programs for service jobs - like plumbers,  electricians, carpenters, etc. - are harder to find, and are also  becoming more expensive, as their rarity means they can pick and choose  their students the way colleges used to do.  Fixing this problem is  going to require  a societal change - and given the current financial  state of the country, it needs to happen soon.  The average debt of  graduating seniors is over $23,000 (look here),  and can rise as high as $300,000.  If parents can help - great!  But in  many cases, the costs are too high for any but the richest to afford.


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2011)

Richard Branson left school after struggling with dyslexia, Simon Cowell was privately educated and did go to college through I think you mean university in the OP.
I think our education system is a bit different from yours so it's hard to make comparisions. Most of our colleges are vocational where you learn trades, very few are academic other than Sixth Form Colleges which is where students do their A levels in preparation for university.
Children here sit O levels at 16, if they are academic they will stay on at school or go to a Sixth Form college to sit A levels. Otherwise they leave school at 16 either starting work or going to college, more often than not it's both at the same time. Hairdressing for example you will go to college one or two days a week and work in a salon for the rest of the week, same as building trades, carpentry, metal work,catering, car mechanics etc. Education up to 18 is free, university costs unless you are Scottish.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 8, 2011)

It's a bit of an aside to the topic of the thread, despite the clips purportedly being about university education, but that Penn & Teller programme was well worth a watch.  

I am stunned that things have come to such a pass in the institutions of learning and, if the accusations in the programme are even half true, I am now a little more sympathetic to the positions laid out by such outspoken MT members as *TF*, *DB* or *BillC*.  

I didn't particularly agree with the assertion that I don't have the right not to be offended but I think that what I am talking about is my requirement for certain standards of politeness whereas what P & T were talking about was silencing those who hold opinions different to my own.

I also was struck by one of the comments made which essentially boiled down to the fact that all the 'diversity' ******** was as deeply racist and insidious as the KKK.  Not only does it promulgate the venomous view that the only 'demographic' that does not have a right to their opinions is the one typified by 'white folks' but in fact it is insulting to the very people it purports to defend - paraphrasing, "You are too weak to live with freedom" is a wonderfully pithy way of stating the problem.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 8, 2011)

Tez raises an interesting point above viz what do American's mean when they talk about 'College'.  In Britain, as Tez said, college (or Sixth Form) is where youngsters go for those two years between leaving school at 16 and entering university at 18, if that is their goal.  During those two years, taking 'A' Level courses, they used to be expected to gain sufficient experience with the tools of self-study, written expression of understanding and learning to be able to handle the academic environment - I say 'used' because it is not the case any more as standards continue to slide in the name of 'inclusivity'.

A two year course is not really a degree in the British system.  Altho' they are sometimes referred to as Ordinary Degrees, taking graduation after two years rather than working the extra year or two for a 'proper' Honours Degree is considered tantermount to a fail.  It's not as straighforward as that of course, as there are two year courses that award HNC or HND {Higher National Certificate/Diploma) that some people sometimes refer to as degrees as well {tho they are not, despite what my missus with her HND in Photography says :lol:}.


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## Carol (Jul 8, 2011)

Tez3 said:


> Richard Branson left school after struggling with dyslexia, Simon Cowell was privately educated and did go to college through I think you mean university in the OP.
> I think our education system is a bit different from yours so it's hard to make comparisions. Most of our colleges are vocational where you learn trades, very few are academic other than Sixth Form Colleges which is where students do their A levels in preparation for university.
> Children here sit O levels at 16, if they are academic they will stay on at school or go to a Sixth Form college to sit A levels. Otherwise they leave school at 16 either starting work or going to college, more often than not it's both at the same time. Hairdressing for example you will go to college one or two days a week and work in a salon for the rest of the week, same as building trades, carpentry, metal work,catering, car mechanics etc. Education up to 18 is free, university costs unless you are Scottish.



Different distinctions in the US.  Over here, a University is only an instituion with full doctoral programs, where a college may be any degree-granting institution, including a subsection of a university.  My first Bachelors is from Berklee College of Music, which (only) offers Bachelor's degrees.  My second will be from the University of Massachusetts, which has (multiple) doctoral programs.  Trade schools aren't colleges, unless they grant degrees.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

For full disclosure, I spent time at D'Youville College, and Erie Community College, as well as 2 stints at Bryant & Stratton technical institute.
I learned more in high school.
My advisor at D'Youvile was out of touch with the state of the industry, the classes and equipment at ECC were woefully subpar even for that day, the B&S program 1st pass was the outdated cpus, and the second pass I had an major issue with my instructor only being 1 chapter ahead of the class in the text book (he was learning as we went to teach us).

I also had a major argument with him on some basics of C programming, during which in class he insisted that  Dennis Ritchie had it wrong, and that he was right. 
Lets just say publicly embarrassing one's instructor is not a good way to ensure passing grades. 

This isn't to say I think the programs are bunk, but my experiences have been rather, unpleasant.
Still, if you've got the desire, want the degrees, go for it.
But me personally, as a businessman, I value your ability and experience more than a piece of unrelated paper.

Though I do sometimes with I had the time to go and work on a doctorate in history.


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## Nomad (Jul 8, 2011)

*Never let school get in the way of your education.  *

IMO, there's way more to college or university than the classes you attend, and this can also make a big difference later on.  Of course, it's a costly (and getting costlier) option, and I agree that it shouldn't be considered required for a great number of trades that would do better with apprenticeships, for instance.


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## billc (Jul 8, 2011)

An aside: one of the fill in hosts on a local radio show, a lawyer and journalist by profession, discussed this topic with John Stossel.  the host made the point that a PH.D student was someone who would forsake making money right now for the hope of forsaking money in the future.  I thought it was funny.


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## jks9199 (Jul 8, 2011)

There's really a couple of things going on here.

First is a shift in the understanding and expectations of basic education here in the US.  Read articles from the newspaper of 40 or 50 years ago and compare them to today's.  Today's papers and magazines are much more simplistically written then they used to be.  We've lost a lot of critical thinking, too.  Primary ed (I'll define this as through a high school diploma) has become as much about warehousing the kids during the day, social indoctrination, meals, and incidentally passing the mandated standards.  Forget actually expecting work.  I graduated HS in the late 80s; I basically slept through it.  I didn't bother with school.  And it's gotten worse.

Second is a over-valuing of credentials, rather than learning.  It doesn't matter if you actually learned anything, if you have the credentials that you did.  So, it's a status symbol and an expectation that kids will go to college right out of high school.  I know that, with hindsight, I wasn't socially/emotionally ready for college right out of high school; I really would have benefited from either military service or just plain work, or even something like the Peace Corps.  But I wasn't really prepared for that by high school; I was on a college track.

We also started valuing things much more by name or cost than actual usefulness or worth.  (Not the best phrasing...)  "Massive State College" isn't as good as 3x the cost private university.  So, to compete, MSC started charging more...  leading the private university to do the same... and the dance began.  And, of course, you aren't a good parent if you don't send your kid to college...  even if he really truly just wants to put his 8 hours in on the back of a trash truck so that he can paint or teach martial arts or whatever.  It's part of the same thing.

College has, in way to many ways and way too many cases, become an additional four years of adolescence.  A pause before reality -- without prepping people for reality.  And grade inflation, from pre-school to at least bachelor's level courses, has made a "genteman's C" a "gentleman's A."  As I completed my bachelor's, working full time and part time, I was constantly amazed at how little work was often required -- and then astounded when some students still managed to not do it.  (There are exceptions and courses that are exceptions.)

I'd love to see a resurgence in trade or functional schools.  You don't need a bachelor's degree to be a cop.  It helps IF you learned to think while acquiring a degree, but it's far from essential.  I routinely field the question of "what should I study in school?"  The reality is the academy teaches you the cop stuff, coupled with experience.  All the credit hours in the world don't equal the simple value of seeing and handling calls.  And a degree doesn't show you can learn and apply knowledge -- it only shows that you can show up, and take tests or turn papers in.  (Sometimes with 12 extensions...)  It doesn't say you know how to show up for work on time, or pay a bill, or apply some sound judgement to a situation.  The answer I give?  Study whatever interests you, because the simple truth is that, outside of a decreasingly few fields (law, medicine, SOME engineering), your college degree may not have any relation to what you do for a living, so you might as well study something you like so that you stand a better chance of getting better grades.  That -- or there are a hell of a lot of historians and economists out there that nobody knows about!


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## elder999 (Jul 8, 2011)

When I was a kid, for the longest time, I wanted to be a marine biologist. I earned a degree in religious studies that's proven to be of use only to me. Fast forward-a year in Japan, a coupla years in the export business concurrent with two years spent going to SUNY @ Stonybrook to "wipe the cobwebs away," and a year at M.I.T. and I drop out and get married. 

That's right. I'm an M.I.T. dropout. 

I got a job at the nuke plant-it paid REALLY well, and had good benefits, and wasn't boring. It also offered the opportunity to continue my engineering education with hands on experience. One of those hands on experiences was rotating the intake screens for people to count fish. See, Indian Point and Con Edison negotiated an agreement about fish killed on the intake screens-they have a hatchery for striped bass, and had people regularly come and count fish caught on the screens until they replaced those screens with ones that are supposed to gently return the fish back to the Hudson. As an operator, on a weekly basis I'd go out to the intake structure and run all eight screens for 10 minutes so that the head guy and his intern could get in a pit and count fish that were washed off the screens. This was great when it was summer and sunny (in the days before they enclosed the intake structure) but pretty miserable in the cold of the Hudson Valley. One winter, the "fishmonger" had a cute girl working with him, and I chatted her up a little while watching her turn blue handling fish in hip-deep freezing . _What'd you do to wind up in this line of work?_ I asked, to which she rather snootily replied,_I have a Master's in marine biology._ To which I replied that I had once wanted to be a marine biologist, and asked what counting fish paid. She said _Oh, 17K a year_ (this was like 1984) to which I replied,_Wow. I dropped out of engineering after my third year, and I made $60K last year....._If_ *sucks to be you*_had been part of the vernacular then, I'd probably have said as much. :lfao: 


In the ensuing years, I've gotten degreed up the ***....In the ensuing years, I've picked up more education-more than I wanted, really, and my salary has increased accordingly-sometimes quite a bit. Interestingly, the simple addition of an MBA to my resume might have earned me more-still might, I guess, but I'm not working for the money. In any case, since my employer compensated me for the cost of that education all along the way, it was definitely worth it, financially.


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## Big Don (Jul 8, 2011)

One degree isn't the same as another. An BA or even an MA is probably less valuable than a BS or an MS...
Bill Gates is wealthy, he never finished college... My grandpa ran the largest lemon packing house in the world, and never finished the eighth grade...
Personal drive has more, IMO, to do with where you get in life than any other factor.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

http://blogs.ubc.ca/paperball/2010/11/11/straight-as-never-made-anybody-rich-by-wess-roberts/


> There are many paths to personal achievement.  Often education and training lead you to the _opportunity_ to make the most of your life.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

Big Don said:


> One degree isn't the same as another. An BA or even an MA is probably less valuable than a BS or an MS...
> Bill Gates is wealthy, he never finished college... My grandpa ran the largest lemon packing house in the world, and never finished the eighth grade...
> Personal drive has more, IMO, to do with where you get in life than any other factor.



well, grandpa lived in a different era...and even Bill Gates is old skool by now....not sure if he could have his way in current climate.

But to counter elder's story on how to make bank without a degree...
hubby was passed over for a promotion in favor of a woman with a degree in history...
Now, mind you, they were testing gas masks and repair rubber hazmat suits for a military instalation. Hstory is good, but got not a thing to do with mustard gas - historic application not withstanding.


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## Empty Hands (Jul 8, 2011)




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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 8, 2011)

*Having a College/University* education is no guarantee of success.  However, it usually does help!  Throughout my life I have known some fantastic people with little education who became incredibly wealthy. (my grandpa who was raised during the depression is a prime example)  I have also known a lot more people who did not go to college who made very little money.  On average all of the College/University degreed people that I know are making *very good money if not great*!  It is not a definite as your own intellect and skills will determine how you do but.... having an education usually gives you a leg up on the competition.  What you do with it then is your business!


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## Kacey (Jul 8, 2011)

Big Don said:


> One degree isn't the same as another. An BA or even an MA is probably less valuable than a BS or an MS...



The only difference between a BA and BS at the university I attended for my undergraduate work was 2 years of a foreign language... which, incidentally, was required for the BS, not the BA.

Bill Gates is wealthy, he never finished college... My grandpa ran the largest lemon packing house in the world, and never finished the eighth grade...
Personal drive has more, IMO, to do with where you get in life than any other factor.[/QUOTE]

Personal drive is, indeed, important - although as I said earlier, the expectations for education have increased massively over the last 50 years; when your grandfather was a child, few people went to school past 8th grade.  My grandfather - who stopped at the end of 8th grade - was a professional draftsman, which would require considerably more today than the on-the-job training Grandpa received.   That same personal drive is behind all of the entrepreneurs in the news today.

The biggest difference I see is the proliferation of assistance programs - when my grandparents (all born between 1902 and 1912) were children, and young adults (during the Great Depression) you either found a way to make money or you starved.  Welfare began during the Great Depression - and people did whatever they could to stay off it.  I teach children who are third- and fourth-generation Welfare recipients, who are taught from the cradle that the government _owes_ them a living.  As a teacher, I do all I can to teach these kids that effort will pay off - so they can go home and sit on the couch with Mom and Grandma, listening to them complain about how food stamps just don't go as far as they used to.  Few of them have the personal drive necessary to succeed in school - never mind beyond school.  The problems with education today are societal, and related strongly to the 87% of the time that kids *aren't* in school - so let's quit telling teachers to fix it all by themselves and pull together as a society to fix this mess we, as a society, have created.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

Gates dropped out of Harvard for 'lack of challenge' as he put it. It was also because he was pulled in the direction of being pioneer in the computer field, rather than rehashing what some dead guy 500 years ago came up with. (there's a quote out there that says as much. Can't find it, but I've got 5 bios on the guy to look through)
By all accounts, he was a math whiz.



> or all his success, apparently he's  still not a fan of college, though.  Despite receiving an honorary  degree from Harvard in 2007, Gates' closing speech [video] at the Techonomy 2010 conference delivered criticism of colleges today.
> 
> Gates  calls college education "increasingly hard to get" and says that  "place-based" traditional college studies will be "five times less  important than it is today."
> 
> He argues, "The self-motivated  learner will be on the web.  And there will be far less place-based  [college] things...College -- except for the parties -- needs to be less  place based."


 http://www.dailytech.com/Bill+Gates...tion+When+You+  Have+the+Web/article19294.htm

Gates got where he is by something that most people today lack.
Hard work, and a willingness to do what it takes.

He used to (don't know if he still does) take 'reading vacations', where he'd litterally curl up somewhere away from the daily grind for a few days  and hammer a topic to death. "Light" reading like Physics, or Astronomy or the latest programming languages.
Not comics and reality shows.

Follow his path, you'll probably do ok. You might also drop dead of exhaustion as 48 hr days were normal for him.


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## billc (Jul 8, 2011)

So he was successful because he could alter the time space continuum by putting 48 hours in a 24 hour day.  Kind of like ground hog day.  I wish I could do that.


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## Buka (Jul 8, 2011)

If every college education was free, would that matter?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 8, 2011)

It can never be free. Someone has to pay for the ivory towers and reality distortion fields those professors exist under.


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## granfire (Jul 8, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> It can never be free. Someone has to pay for the ivory towers and reality distortion fields those professors exist under.



Well, when it was still assumed that having graduates of those ivory towers, the assumption of free education was not too far fetched.

However, as the institutions of higher learning are flooded and in turn release a deluge of graduates onto a market not equipped to absorb them....

We need to rethink this.
(FWIW, students in Germany are UPSET about having to pay something like 500 Euro a semester....)


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## hongkongfooey (Jul 9, 2011)

Bob said..

"It can never be free. Someone has to pay for the ivory towers and reality distortion fields those professors exist under"


That is right. Especially when the basketball coach makes $1,000,000 a year.


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2011)

Now, some years back the city of Niagara Falls built a new state of the art high school, funding was provided to a good extent (I want to say fully, but may be wrong) by private backers.  All students received laptops as part of the deal.  No idea if they are still doing that.  Also, from my understanding that took care of the build.  Daily operations comes from the tax base however.

My local community college lists these rates:

Full-time (per academic year)  $7,200.00  (commuter)
  Part-time (per credit hour) $300.00/cr. hr.

Harvard lists  $52,650 / yr (includes board)

D'youville is about $20-30k depending on commuter/boarder status.



At about $16,000 for a 2 yr associates degree, Assuming it generates an additional $5/hr pay rise, full time employment gained at graduation, the break even point is about a year and a half from graduation.

A 4 year degree from D'Youville will run you about $120,000.
Assuming a $10/hr pay rise, full time employment gained at graduation, the break even point is about 6 years after graduation.

A 4 year degree from Harvard runs about $212,000.
Assuming a $15/hr pay rise, full time employment gained at graduation, the break even point is about 14 years after graduation.
 
Note that I did increase the earning potential to reflect the expected greater earning potential as the degree and 'desirability' increased.

Slightly above Min wage high school grad, full time, some experience: $10/hr. Gross Income Pre Tax $21,000
2 year degree, 50% pay rise. $15/hr Gross Income Pre Tax - $31,000
Same rate for entry to mid level skilled trade.
4 yr degree. 2x high schooler rate.  $20/hr  gross income pre-tax $42,000
4 yr degree, prestige factor 1.5. $30/hr  gross income pre tax $ $62,000
(I am aware the numbers in the 2 blocks do not sync up.)

See also http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2000/05/01/278924/index.htm


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## Makalakumu (Jul 9, 2011)

Empty Hands said:


>



Is this a function of some other aspect of schooling or is this an actual demonstration of the worth of a degree?  Formal education isn't necessarily about learning.  There are other aspects of school that train a person to function in our society.  Whilst this graph seems to show a correlation between degree and income, reality is FAR more complicated then that conclusion.


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## elder999 (Jul 9, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> Is this a function of some other aspect of schooling or is this an actual demonstration of the worth of a degree? Formal education isn't necessarily about learning. There are other aspects of school that train a person to function in our society. Whilst this graph seems to show a correlation between degree and income, reality is FAR more complicated then that conclusion.



You're right. Clearly the graph demonstrates the outcome of the Nubirian conspiracy to make us all falsely believe that a college degree leads to a higher paying job, by ensuring that a college education leads to a higher paying job.:lfao:

In other words, just how is reality FAR more complicated than that conclusion?


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## Bob Hubbard (Jul 9, 2011)

I hit $50k back in 2002-2003.
High school diploma, no college degree.
Right place, right creds, right ability, etc.

I know a few people who passed that chart.
I know people who should be higher who are stuck lower too.

A degree -can- help.
But hard work, demonstrated ability, experience and opportunity grabbed gets you further, in my opinion.


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## elder999 (Jul 9, 2011)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I hit $50k back in 2002-2003.
> High school diploma, no college degree.
> Right place, right creds, right ability, etc.
> 
> ...



And my conversation with the marine biologist was probably 1984-'85 at the latest. I'd made 60k-no technical degree. 

There's some truth in what you have to say, but sometimes just getting into the right degree program, and then getting (not necessarily _earning_) that degree is a leg up.

Really interested in what John has to say about there being MORE to the reality, though.....


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## Makalakumu (Jul 9, 2011)

elder999 said:


> You're right. Clearly the graph demonstrates the outcome of the Nubirian conspiracy to make us all falsely believe that a college degree leads to a higher paying job, by ensuring that a college education leads to a higher paying job.:lfao:



Wow, you have cognitive dissonance about this too!  :lfao:



elder999 said:


> In other words, just how is reality FAR more complicated than that conclusion?



Is the degree something that people with high ability in other latent abilities earn?  Could those latent abilities be contributing to more success in our society?  

Are all degrees worth the same?  This graph assumes an average that may be misleading.

How much does the non-educational training in conformity and obedience matter when compared to latent intelligence when it comes to income?


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## Makalakumu (Jul 9, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Really interested in what John has to say about there being MORE to the reality, though.....



OTOH the training we receive in institutions might also directly correlate with higher income regardless of the actual "education" that occurs.  For example, imagine an authority figure taking a 500 piece puzzle and throwing one piece at an individual and then telling that individual a story about the picture on the puzzle.  A properly "trained" individual would accept that story without question.  AND if they were really highly trained, they may even use their "training" to invent justifications for the story they were told and then pass these justifications off with the miasma of authority these pieces of paper confer.  Individuals who are trained like this would be very valuable for certain kinds of jobs in our society.

Even if the graph is correct, reality is more complicated.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 9, 2011)

I am so tempted to throw in a 'humerous' response about Marketing/Business or Sociology/Psychology degrees at this juncture ... but I shall be good ...

...

...

Ooops! :lol:


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## Senjojutsu (Jul 10, 2011)

Tough times for young lawyers.

Duplicitous & double-dealing law schools lying and falsifying facts to future duplicitous, double-dealing, lying lawyers??
I am shocked... *SHOCKED I SAY! 
*
My heart is like an alligator... and those are crocodile tears running down my cheek.
:uhyeah:

-------------------------------------------------
*
Is Law School a Losing Game?
*By DAVID SEGAL Published: January 8, 2011

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/business/09law.html?ref=general&src=me&pagewanted=all 1 

IF there is ever a class in how to remain calm while trapped beneath $250,000 in loans, Michael Wallerstein ought to teach it...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
*A Record Low for 2010 Law Grads: Only 68% Have Jobs Requiring Bar Passage
*Posted Jun 1, 2011 7:57 AM CDT
By Debra Cassens Weiss

http://www.abajournal.com/news/arti...rads_only_68_have_jobs_requiring_bar_passage/ 

Law graduates in the class of 2010 have set a new record, and it&#8217;s not a good one...


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## elder999 (Jul 12, 2011)

maunakumu said:


> OTOH the training we receive in institutions might also directly correlate with higher income regardless of the actual "education" that occurs. For example, imagine an authority figure taking a 500 piece puzzle and throwing one piece at an individual and then telling that individual a story about the picture on the puzzle. A properly "trained" individual would accept that story without question. AND if they were really highly trained, they may even use their "training" to invent justifications for the story they were told and then pass these justifications off with the miasma of authority these pieces of paper confer. Individuals who are trained like this would be very valuable for certain kinds of jobs in our society.



Following what appears to be a trend in your once clear thinking towards overcomplication, I invoke the _pancake bunny._

I mean, honestly, was it the move to Hawaii, or what, John? :lfao:



maunakumu said:


> Even if the graph is correct, reality is more complicated.



Indeed. One has to wonder how many of those 80,000 bartenders with college degrees referenced in the Stossel article are actually making $80k or more a year-it is more than possible, after all. 

First off, for some of us, the value of work lies in more than the paycheck-I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment. For the scholar, the counselor, the _teacher_ (*John*), the minister, and, one would hope, the police officer, their calling has more to do with interests, passions and yes-&#8220;_calling_&#8221; than pay, and whatever training or education they had to attain to work in their field of choosing has inestimable *value* beyond monetary compensation for _employment_.

Indeed, I&#8217;d wager that a high school chemistry teacher could make far more employed as a chemist in industry&#8230;..or running a state of the art meth-lab. :lfao:

And, speaking of high-school: upon my return to academia, in spite of my having already earned a BA in religious studies, I had to take an examination for basic composition.

Because of the shoddy quality of high school education circa 1980, I had to prove that I could write coherently in my native language. It was an admission requirement. 

This is the real reason for the devaluation of college education-that it truly has become an extension of high school, especially for freshman year, and the fact that it has become far too specialized: I know far too many of my fellow engineers who can calculate the &#8220;most efficient&#8221; method for processes, and yet will simply forget the man-machine interface-the fact that someone has to actually operate the damn thing-and come up with something that is nearly physically impossible to operate. College can&#8217;t-or often, doesn&#8217;t-teach common sense, or creativity. 

Likewise, when I got the job at the nuke plant, it was because I passed a basic science and mathematics test-one that, in my estimation, anyone with an adequate high-school education should be able to pass well enough to be hired-yet not everyone can. Okay, perhaps I more than &#8220;passed,&#8221; and the test didn&#8217;t present any particular difficulty for me, but some skill with algebra, physics and chemistry isn&#8217;t too much to expect from a high school graduate, I think.

Getting back to the idea of &#8220;value&#8221; though, while I haven&#8217;t earned a damn penny with my religious studies degree in nearly 35 years, it&#8217;s education that I value, and has come in handy-it&#8217;s still an area of study for me, and I still contemplate post-graduate work in the field, from time to time. As for my engineering skills-while many of them could be attained in other ways, there is no place *but* college for me to have attained others.

I dunno if using Bill Gates or anyone who is so clearly _exceptional_ as an example is doing anyone any justice, either. If you think you&#8217;re the next Bill Gates, well, you&#8217;re probably wrong. If you *know* you are, then college, what you&#8217;re told, and everything else really won&#8217;t matter.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 12, 2011)

elder999 said:


> Following what appears to be a trend in your once clear thinking towards overcomplication, I invoke the _pancake bunny._
> 
> I mean, honestly, was it the move to Hawaii, or what, John? :lfao:



Oh please, you understand what I'm talking about in that quote.  You know what it's like to work in an institution.

As far as my once clear thinking goes, well, I have been finding that I know less and less the older I get.  I've deconstructed my knowledge back to kindergarten.  Hurting others = bad.  Stealing = bad.  Lying = bad.  Etc...  Who knows if I'll know anything when I'm long in the tooth?



elder999 said:


> Indeed. One has to wonder how many of those 80,000 bartenders with college degrees referenced in the Stossel article are actually making $80k or more a year-it is more than possible, after all.
> 
> First off, for some of us, the value of work lies in more than the paycheck-I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment. For the scholar, the counselor, the _teacher_ (*John*), the minister, and, one would hope, the police officer, their calling has more to do with interests, passions and yes-&#8220;_calling_&#8221; than pay, and whatever training or education they had to attain to work in their field of choosing has inestimable *value* beyond monetary compensation for _employment_.
> 
> Indeed, I&#8217;d wager that a high school chemistry teacher could make far more employed as a chemist in industry&#8230;..or running a state of the art meth-lab. :lfao:



I was raised to recognize the value of work beyond payment as well and I agree that the chart in question certainly does not take this into account.  Have you ever wondered what a society would look like that ascribed economic value to those qualities?



elder999 said:


> And, speaking of high-school: upon my return to academia, in spite of my having already earned a BA in religious studies, I had to take an examination for basic composition.
> 
> Because of the shoddy quality of high school education circa 1980, I had to prove that I could write coherently in my native language. It was an admission requirement.
> 
> ...



Back onto the topic of this thread, well, I think you are pointing your finger in the right direction, but there is still more to it.  The degrading quality of education rests on a set of assumptions about the individual that might not be true.  For example, did you know that the unique spark of your creativity, of that special essence that you think is you, is actually just a product of your experience.  Therefore, things like free will and self determination are illusions and are therefore mutable by an outside force that controls your environment and experience.  You really are just another brick in the wall!

If that underlying assumption was incorrect, what would happen to an institution that droned on with it into perpetuity?  

Have you ever heard of drapetomania?  When an institution is dying, it pathologies rebellion.  You might find this ODD, but we do this today.  School, as we know it, is dying my friend.  

School is like a tunnel that narrows the farther you go into it.  This  pushes humans into pasty cogs that can't see much opportunity outside of  their skill sets.  Perhaps the nature of the human mind runs opposite of this trend?



elder999 said:


> Getting back to the idea of &#8220;value&#8221; though, while I haven&#8217;t earned a damn penny with my religious studies degree in nearly 35 years, it&#8217;s education that I value, and has come in handy-it&#8217;s still an area of study for me, and I still contemplate post-graduate work in the field, from time to time. As for my engineering skills-while many of them could be attained in other ways, there is no place *but* college for me to have attained others.
> 
> I dunno if using Bill Gates or anyone who is so clearly _exceptional_ as an example is doing anyone any justice, either. If you think you&#8217;re the next Bill Gates, well, you&#8217;re probably wrong. If you *know* you are, then college, what you&#8217;re told, and everything else really won&#8217;t matter.



The autodidact, like yourself, is the exception and not the rule.  How much does a dynamic mind that soaks in knowledge and seeks understanding matter?  The chart that *Empty Hands* posted will never capture things like this in terms of economic value.  The piece of paper isn't necessarily tied to the abilities of our minds.  Like I said before, it's more complicated.


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## Makalakumu (Jul 12, 2011)

And, just to perpetuate my current shtick, check this out.  :ultracool


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