# Bullying in BJJ.



## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 19, 2009)

So I was just following links and came across this site: http://thewisegrappler.com/?gclid=CL-K65u2rpkCFRYdewodqCRKJw

Made me think, is bullying of older and/or non-competition school members really that common?


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 19, 2009)

Good thing he's in Maryland and not California, else I'd have advised him against the use of "OG". Especially the t shirts and the writing style thereon.


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## LordOfWu (Mar 20, 2009)

I just started bjj last summer at the ripe young age of 35.  I have never felt bullied, harrassed, beat up, or anything else he described.  At our school we are all trying to get better and help each other get better.  I was thoroughly beaten (fairly and with no additional zeal than I would expect) by a brand new guy who'd spent quite a bit of time as a wrestler.  When he submitted me I told him 'good job' and he was so incredibly respectful and thankful to me for rolling with him that I have rolled with him at least once a week since then.  He had respect for the techniques I knew and he didn't, and I had respect for his talents and wanted to work against someone that made me focus so much on technique since he is bigger and stronger.

I don't have enough experience to say it doesn't happen, but I can say that I have not had anything like that experience.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 20, 2009)

I have also never come across any type of bullying behavior.


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## teekin (Mar 20, 2009)

I would think that in a reputable school the head instructor would have that purple belts *** if he saw that crap. That looked *awful* _staged._   :bs:I think this is a marketing ploy. That kinda **** just don't fly, it's just too disrespectful.
lori


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## Nolerama (Mar 20, 2009)

Beating old people up is just a job... BJJ class is supposed to be fun ;P

(I'm kidding about the first part)

I think inherently, coming up with a DVD set geared towards a perceived weaker, older student that wants to defend against the bigger, stronger, younger student is kind of the whole point of BJJ. So what's the point of its existence?

Don't get me wrong, my cranked neck is telling me that strength and size coupled with wrestling of any kind amplifies effectiveness, but actual bullies within the class? I agree with the above statements.

There could be a contact level issue, which needs to be stressed over and over to your training partner. I've been dealing with those issues as of late, but sometimes, people just don't get it.

My DVD would be 5 seconds long... It would be titled: "Plain and Simple: Going Somewhere Else If Your Classmates Don't Seem to Get It."


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 20, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> I would think that in a reputable school the head instructor would have that purple belts *** if he saw that crap. That looked *awful* _staged._   :bs:I think this is a marketing ploy. That kinda **** just don't fly, it's just too disrespectful.
> lori



I was linked to the add from MySpace. I thought it looked like a marketing ploy to get older guys who want to have a go at BJJ to buy his product. I'm a guy in my 30s who hasn't had much exposure to BJJ, so I have no idea if what this guy is advertising is true or not. So far the response is that he's at best over-reacting.


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## teekin (Mar 20, 2009)

You know that is *Fear Mongering *of the worse kind.:rpo: In even the toughest schools, no scratch that, especially in the toughest schools the kind of behavior shown in that video would show disrespect not only toward the older student but also towards the purple's head instructor and the school itself.  It's just too low class and pitiful to be taken seriously. I don't know in what hole you'd find a group like this but you wouldn't want to stay and train with them anyway!
  In a worth while school anyone who has the balls to step out onto the mat will be welcomed and receive as much help as he/she wants or needs. The weaker you are the more people will be looking out for you Not to be roughed up. Bullies are seldom tolerated very long in a well run gym. 
lori


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## Ronin74 (Mar 21, 2009)

My BJJ experience is very limited (my instructor moved back home only after I was a month into training), but I've also never seen the "bullying" that this guy was speaking of, and I'm not that much younger than that guy. In general, most of the BJJ schools/classes I've visited were geared towards a mutual improvement for all students, both young and old. I've seen them push each other, but they've always maintained a sense of respect between each other. I'd have to agree with Grendel in that none of the instructors I've seen would take that sort of crap. BJJ involves techniques that could create some serious injuries, and a good instructor puts the well-being of his/her students at the forefront.

In contrast though, I have to say that I have seen bullying in martial arts schools, and that's a sad thing to see- especially when people are out to learn. What's worse is that's a reflection on the school as well as the instructors. I've actually checked out gyms where I overheard instructors making very tasteless ethnic jokes, while sitting at the front desk. Those are the folks that hurt martial arts schools, and who usually don't last too long there, or in the art.


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## Thems Fighting Words (Mar 21, 2009)

Grendel308 said:


> You know that is *Fear Mongering *of the worse kind.:rpo: In even the toughest schools, no scratch that, especially in the toughest schools the kind of behavior shown in that video would show disrespect not only toward the older student but also towards the purple's head instructor and the school itself.  It's just too low class and pitiful to be taken seriously. I don't know in what hole you'd find a group like this but you wouldn't want to stay and train with them anyway!


I didn't actually bother watching the video cus just reading what he said made me question his honesty. Just wanted to see if I was right to think this guy was using BS tactics to sell a porduct. Although I haven't trained in BJJ, I have trained in some fairly rough and tumble places. But even in MT schools, I haven't seen older guys and/or non-competitors actively bullied. Obviously the instructor will pay more attention to the fight team, but actual bullying hurts the bottom line. What's sad is this guys must be pretty successful because his add is one I've run into a fair bit on My Space.



Ronin74 said:


> In contrast though, I have to say that I have seen bullying in martial arts schools, and that's a sad thing to see- especially when people are out to learn. What's worse is that's a reflection on the school as well as the instructors. I've actually checked out gyms where I overheard instructors making very tasteless ethnic jokes, while sitting at the front desk. Those are the folks that hurt martial arts schools, and who usually don't last too long there, or in the art.


If you're talking about certain TMA schools, then yeah I'd agree with you. I'm an Asian and I was a closed door student of a TMA school where the teacher wouldn't accept non-Asians as clsoed door students. It was sad really because I believe martial arts shouldn't be limited by race, religion or political creed.


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## Formosa Neijia (Apr 4, 2009)

The video is an exaggeration but that type of stuff does happen. It just isn't said or shown that explicitly all the time. But you can pick up on it in some schools.

In some (many?) schools, the BJJ is taught in a hyper-competitive atmosphere. Spending five minutes on Sherdog or bullshido will show you this. You either are part of the process and further those goals or expect to get shunned or hurt. Often every move is done like you're in the Olympics or something. It's not difficult for beginners, especially older beginners that aren't obsessed with MMA or winning NAGA, to get hurt in the process.

So he's marketing a bit but the info he provides seems pretty solid and is needed in some areas.


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## dnovice (Apr 4, 2009)

Thems Fighting Words said:


> So I was just following links and came across this site: http://thewisegrappler.com/?gclid=CL-K65u2rpkCFRYdewodqCRKJw
> 
> Made me think, is bullying of older and/or non-competition school members really that common?


 
He's try to scheme people out of their hard earned cash.


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## Dagney Taggert (May 12, 2009)

Funny, I was just reading about bullys on another unrelated website.

I wrote it there, and I'll write it again here.

A person who bullys other students carries around a giant neon-lit sign which reads, "I AM AN INSECURE, SCARED, PATHETIC, WHINEY, TANTRUM THROWING, COWARD!!"


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## punisher73 (May 12, 2009)

Formosa Neijia said:


> The video is an exaggeration but that type of stuff does happen. It just isn't said or shown that explicitly all the time. But you can pick up on it in some schools.
> 
> In some (many?) schools, the BJJ is taught in a hyper-competitive atmosphere. Spending five minutes on Sherdog or bullshido will show you this. You either are part of the process and further those goals or expect to get shunned or hurt. Often every move is done like you're in the Olympics or something. It's not difficult for beginners, especially older beginners that aren't obsessed with MMA or winning NAGA, to get hurt in the process.
> 
> So he's marketing a bit but the info he provides seems pretty solid and is needed in some areas.


 
It does happen, I know of two schools here where I live.  One is GREAT, it is like a family and everyone helps out with everyone.  The other one is a guy who teaches "MMA", he has very little actual BJJ training but trains his students in it anyways.  The students there are almost all punks who want to go out and hurt people and get in fights.  I know of another person who has competed in MMA and trains BJJ, he stopped teaching non-LEO people because he was started to get thugs showing up in class just wanting to learn BJJ to hurt people.  It's not a far stretch to think that if you are in a large enough school, that an instructor might not be aware of it.  In a smaller school they would be aware of it.

Remember, if you talk to people from Brazil, BJJ does not have a good reputation down there for many because many of the students go around picking fights to show how tough they are and it is associated with thugs (even just last year I talked with an exchange student from Brazil and asked him about BJJ and said about the same thing I have read)


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## lklawson (May 12, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> Remember, if you talk to people from Brazil, BJJ does not have a good reputation down there for many because many of the students go around picking fights to show how tough they are and it is associated with thugs (even just last year I talked with an exchange student from Brazil and asked him about BJJ and said about the same thing I have read)


I'm not sure how much BJJ is on the average Brazillian's radar. I have a buddy who married a Brazillian girl and now lives there. Because of a similar question about BJJ reputation in Brazil, I once asked her, through my buddy, "What do you think of Brazillian Ju Jitsu?" Her response was, "What's that?"

This was a couple of years ago now, so maybe things have changed since. <shrug>

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 13, 2009)

The school will take on the personality of the coach, and will attract students who are of like mind.  

One thing that kind of irritates me is when people talk about bullying in BJJ and then use as an example a "guy who teaches MMA" but doesn't have a lot of BJJ experience.


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## punisher73 (May 13, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> The school will take on the personality of the coach, and will attract students who are of like mind.
> 
> One thing that kind of irritates me is when people talk about bullying in BJJ and then use as an example a "guy who teaches MMA" but doesn't have a lot of BJJ experience.


 
I guess that was directed at me.  I gave two examples, one was a BJJ instructor who no longer teaches publicly because he saw it attracting the wrong crowd.  The other was given as an example because he advertises it as teaching BJJ and other arts, if you are new and don't know the difference then this is what you would assume BJJ is.

I could give another example of a place that I went to that trained BJJ and submission grappling.  One of the head instructors was just a plain arrogant jerk who liked to sit around and rip on other people/styles.  Some of the guys there were very nice and didn't reflect that, others...well, let's just say that birds of a feather.

Am I saying that all BJJ is like that?  No, my first example is what I think BJJ schools mostly represent.  A very close knit group that helps one another.  But, there are bullying places out there just like every other MA.


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## Steve (May 13, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I guess that was directed at me.  I gave two examples, one was a BJJ instructor who no longer teaches publicly because he saw it attracting the wrong crowd.  The other was given as an example because he advertises it as teaching BJJ and other arts, if you are new and don't know the difference then this is what you would assume BJJ is.
> 
> I could give another example of a place that I went to that trained BJJ and submission grappling.  One of the head instructors was just a plain arrogant jerk who liked to sit around and rip on other people/styles.  Some of the guys there were very nice and didn't reflect that, others...well, let's just say that birds of a feather.
> 
> Am I saying that all BJJ is like that?  No, my first example is what I think BJJ schools mostly represent.  A very close knit group that helps one another.  But, there are bullying places out there just like every other MA.


Okay.  Let me just say simply that in a discussion about BJJ mcdojos, guys with little experience teaching BJJ is relevant.  In a discussion about bullying in BJJ, it's chaff.  That's all.  No big deal.


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## punisher73 (May 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Okay. Let me just say simply that in a discussion about BJJ mcdojos, guys with little experience teaching BJJ is relevant. In a discussion about bullying in BJJ, it's chaff. That's all. No big deal.


 
I see your point.  I was NOT trying to slam BJJ, I studied it until my schedule didn't allow me to continue and thoroughly enjoyed it.  The school I referenced that was so great was that school.  I should have been more clear in my posts that some schools are advertising as BJJ and don't have as high of standards and people who don't know better get the wrong idea.


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## Steve (May 14, 2009)

punisher73 said:


> I see your point. I was NOT trying to slam BJJ, I studied it until my schedule didn't allow me to continue and thoroughly enjoyed it. The school I referenced that was so great was that school. I should have been more clear in my posts that some schools are advertising as BJJ and don't have as high of standards and people who don't know better get the wrong idea.


I didn't see you as slamming BJJ.  McDojos are springing up all over now and it's a shame.  Your point is very valid.  I was pointing out that it was off topic.  

In fact, locally, a guy I used to train with left our school in December of 08 as a 2 stripe blue belt.  He opened his own school in February and is now listed as a 3 stripe purple, is listed as the owner/head instructor and is handing out rank.  These things happen.


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## lklawson (May 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I didn't see you as slamming BJJ. McDojos are springing up all over now and it's a shame.


Several years ago, on another forum, I predicted that BJJ/Grappling McDojos would soon be appearing because of the rising popularity of the style/sport.  I was laughed at, shouted down, and otherwise, um, "forcefully" repudiated.  

I was "wrong" I was told because Grappling and BJJ have a strong sport and competition history, a culture of "you need to be able to 'hang with' to advance," and a specifically verifiable linage from instructor to student.

Grappling McDojo's simply *COULDN'T* exist, I was assured.  "Real" grapplers would humliate them, ruin their rep., and run them out of business.

Nevermind that Snake-oil remedies with no discernable effect have been being peddaled since time immemorial and continue yet to this day, the principle just CAN NOT be applied to Grappling/BJJ!

Last year I recieved a (completely unexpected) public apology from one of my most prominent detractors in that online disagreement.

I was never so sorry to be proven right.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 14, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Several years ago, on another forum, I predicted that BJJ/Grappling McDojos would soon be appearing because of the rising popularity of the style/sport. I was laughed at, shouted down, and otherwise, um, "forcefully" repudiated.
> 
> I was "wrong" I was told because Grappling and BJJ have a strong sport and competition history, a culture of "you need to be able to 'hang with' to advance," and a specifically verifiable linage from instructor to student.
> 
> ...


While they do exist, I will say that the strong competitive element helps tremendously.  While many lament the watering down of Judo due to the rules of competition, the competition helps ensure that Judo rank is still meaningful and somewhat consistent, and that the efficacy of the style is protected.  

In the same way, BJJ and other grappling arts are protected. 

This doesn't mean that BJJ mcdojos won't exist... only that they will tend not to be involved in the local grappling community and will be very easily identified with some research.


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## lklawson (May 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> This doesn't mean that BJJ mcdojos won't exist... only that they will tend not to be involved in the local grappling community and will be very easily identified with some research.


I don't disagree.

However, there's a big difference between, "can't exist" and "someone who does their homework should be able to tell which is which."  How often will Joe Sixpack actually do his homework?  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 14, 2009)

lklawson said:


> I don't disagree.
> 
> However, there's a big difference between, "can't exist" and "someone who does their homework should be able to tell which is which." How often will Joe Sixpack actually do his homework?
> 
> ...


LOL...  Joe Six Pack...  funny you mention that.  Moving off even further on a tangent, this term is definitely a hot button for me. 

Kirk, I'm with you.  I wouldn't ever suggest that a BJJ McDojo "can't exist."  Where there's money and stupidity, there will be an easy con.  But I would still maintain that BJJ, along with Judo and other arts that incorporate competitive elements are less prone to rampant McDojoism.  Also, grappling arts have an added benefit of safer sparring that can approach 100% without serious danger of injury.  

Regarding Joe Six Pack (and this is a complete aside), my first thought whenever anyone brings up Joe Six Pack is, "Who gives a... crap about THAT guy?"  I do believe that you have to go out of your way to find bad judo instruction for all of the reasons I mentioned.  Even at the local YMCA, you can often get quality judo instruction for a very reasonable price.  While BJJ is a little more expensive, you really have to go out of your way to find bad instruction.

If you truly are a joe six pack (meaning you're the quintessential couch potato who drinks beer from a can... and every negative character trait this implies), then you are a victim of your own sloth and stupidity.  Seriously.  This goes for any subject.  Every time Palin mentioned Joe Sixpack, I wanted to throw my shoe at the TV.  Joe Six Pack doesn't vote... and he doesn't train in BJJ.  Honestly, Joe Six Pack is a cartoon character... a work of complete fiction that represents, in my opinion, the worst misconceptions about Americans.  I don't accept that Joe Six Pack is representative of any meaningful demographic in America.


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## lklawson (May 14, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Regarding Joe Six Pack (and this is a complete aside), my first thought whenever anyone brings up Joe Six Pack is, "Who gives a... crap about THAT guy?"


Joe Six Pack represents the majority of people and so his opinion, dreadfully uninformed though it may be, represents the *MAJORITY* of what interested parties will hear.  If Joe has a negative opinion of grappling then that is what will be propagated throughout our culture.  In that sense, Joe's opinion matters.  Of course, if you want to keep your mad skillz as a secret weapon to use against the next eedjit that challenges you and don't mind classes being smaller than small and on a word-of-mouth basis, well, then Joe having the wrong info might be a good plan after all.  As a friend of mine says, "Good Silat."  



> Even at the local YMCA, you can often get quality judo instruction for a very reasonable price.


It's where I go for Judo.  Going there tonight, in fact.  




> I don't accept that Joe Six Pack is representative of any meaningful demographic in America.


Well, I guess that's where we disagree.  Ah well.  Pistols at dawn?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 14, 2009)

lklawson said:


> Joe Six Pack represents the majority of people and so his opinion, dreadfully uninformed though it may be, represents the *MAJORITY* of what interested parties will hear.


I disagree. Joe Six Pack is a work of fiction trotted out by people who are arguing a position on behalf of a make believe majority. Think about it this way... whenever anyone mentions "joe six pack" they're talking about a group of people of which they are not a part. And it's commonly used to bring up, without anything more than anecdotal evidence, a perceived, uninformed opinion. Sort of a, "I wouldn't ever do xy or z, but I can imagine some dumb, dirty t-shirt wearing, trailer dweller thinking otherwise," so I'll just ascribe this position of ignorance to a make-believe majority.





> If Joe has a negative opinion of grappling then that is what will be propagated throughout our culture. In that sense, Joe's opinion matters.


Gah! Joe doesn't exist. He's a cultural myth... this idea that "most" Americans are "Joe Six Packs" is insulting to most Americans. Hell, even if I were literally named Joe and drank six packs of Coors from a can, I'd be offended that my name is being associated with institutional stupidity, ignorance and willful sloth. 

Seriously... I would never suggest that any country, particularly one as geographically large and diverse as the USA, can be boiled down to the equivalent of a single stereotype. Particularly one that is used synonymously with negativity. That's like equating the 'average' Canadian to "Bob the Flannel Shirt Guy, eh?" and meaning it. 





> Of course, if you want to keep your mad skillz as a secret weapon to use against the next eedjit that challenges you and don't mind classes being smaller than small and on a word-of-mouth basis, well, then Joe having the wrong info might be a good plan after all. As a friend of mine says, "Good Silat."
> 
> It's where I go for Judo. Going there tonight, in fact.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure what you're driving at with this. I don't want to keep anything from anyone.


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## Brian R. VanCise (May 14, 2009)

I am seeing quite a few people I would classify as unskilled starting grappling programs.  Some even just going to a weekend seminar and walla they are a grappling coach.  Mcdojo's are on the grappling band wagon and of course they will only have their people competing in closed tournament's.


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## lklawson (May 15, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> I disagree. Joe Six Pack is a work of fiction trotted out by people who are arguing a position on behalf of a make believe majority. Think about it this way... whenever anyone mentions "joe six pack" they're talking about a group of people of which they are not a part. And it's commonly used to bring up, without anything more than anecdotal evidence, a perceived, uninformed opinion. Sort of a, "I wouldn't ever do xy or z, but I can imagine some dumb, dirty t-shirt wearing, trailer dweller thinking otherwise," so I'll just ascribe this position of ignorance to a make-believe majority.Gah! Joe doesn't exist. He's a cultural myth... this idea that "most" Americans are "Joe Six Packs" is insulting to most Americans. Hell, even if I were literally named Joe and drank six packs of Coors from a can, I'd be offended that my name is being associated with institutional stupidity, ignorance and willful sloth.


It looks like we have a different definition of what "Joe Six Pack" is.  I don't know why, to you, "Joe" is a slothful, torpid, waste of skin, but that's not how I have ever heard the term used, and particularly not how I've ever used it.

Perhaps we should jetison the term "Joe Six Pack" and, instead, use the term, "The Common Man" or "The Average Person."  That's who I'm talking about.

So, anyway, back to my point, if "The Average Person" has a negative opinion of grappling because of McDojos, that tarnishes the reputation of otherwise reputable schools.  It pushes down interest and enrolement, makes it harder for qualified instructors to gain students and keep the doors open, makes it more difficult for reputable schools to maintain their own equipment and facilities, and helps to push "the real deal" into obscurity and irrelevance.

I've seen other examples.  For instance, Fencing.  The vast majority of Fencing in the mind of "The Average Person" is Olympic Sport Fencing, far far divorced from Classical and Historic fencing.  To the Average Person, "fencers" wear gay looking white leotards, funny steel mesh helmets, and flick whippy car antenae at each other.  To "The Average Person," fencing is the sport of upper crust snobs to a large degree and, outside of Zoro reruns, has nothing to do with actual swords and real fights.  Classical and Historical Salles have to fight to survive and contend against this old, if slowly changing, stereotype.

I could cite other examples but I think you get the gist.  The general public perception matters.

Well, anyway, I'm rambling on way too much and drifting far afield here so I think I'd better let it go.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 15, 2009)

lklawson said:


> It looks like we have a different definition of what "Joe Six Pack" is. I don't know why, to you, "Joe" is a slothful, torpid, waste of skin, but that's not how I have ever heard the term used, and particularly not how I've ever used it.
> 
> Perhaps we should jetison the term "Joe Six Pack" and, instead, use the term, "The Common Man" or "The Average Person." That's who I'm talking about.


No problem.  I said at the beginning that it was an aside and specific to your term.  I know what you meant... but that term is one I find particularly insulting.  Do a quick google and you'll shortly find that the commonly understood definition of the term is much closer to mine than yours.  Joe Six Pack is intended to be disparaging, bringing to mind a guy swilling a 6pack in the evening.  It's akin to calling someone trailer trash or a redneck.  While some people embrace the term, the connotations are still negative.

To be clear, I do understand that you meant John Q Public, Everyman, The Average Joe and all of that.  Like I said, I was just going off on a tangent about that particular phrase.  It's a pet peeve. 



> So, anyway, back to my point, if "The Average Person" has a negative opinion of grappling because of McDojos, that tarnishes the reputation of otherwise reputable schools. It pushes down interest and enrolement, makes it harder for qualified instructors to gain students and keep the doors open, makes it more difficult for reputable schools to maintain their own equipment and facilities, and helps to push "the real deal" into obscurity and irrelevance.
> 
> I've seen other examples. For instance, Fencing. The vast majority of Fencing in the mind of "The Average Person" is Olympic Sport Fencing, far far divorced from Classical and Historic fencing. To the Average Person, "fencers" wear gay looking white leotards, funny steel mesh helmets, and flick whippy car antenae at each other. To "The Average Person," fencing is the sport of upper crust snobs to a large degree and, outside of Zoro reruns, has nothing to do with actual swords and real fights. Classical and Historical Salles have to fight to survive and contend against this old, if slowly changing, stereotype.
> 
> ...


All  of this might happen, but as I said, I doubt it.  We'll see McDojos, but I would be surprised if the cycle for BJJ deviates significantly from what we've seen in Judo over the last several decades.


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## lklawson (May 15, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> All of this might happen, but as I said, I doubt it. We'll see McDojos, but I would be surprised if the cycle for BJJ deviates significantly from what we've seen in Judo over the last several decades.


First, my PERSONAL opinion closely parallels yours on this matter.  Second, I hope that we're both right.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## LoneRider (May 15, 2009)

Do most good schools allow prospective students to observe their lessons and thus get a feel for how the school operates?


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## lklawson (May 18, 2009)

LoneRider said:


> Do most good schools allow prospective students to observe their lessons and thus get a feel for how the school operates?


Yes.  Absolutely and without reservation *YES*!

If a school will not let you watch a few classes from the sidelines this should raise lots and lots of red flags.  If they want you to sign up and pay cash before you an glimse their super secret techiques, this should raise lots and lots of red flags.  Particularly, nay, *ESPECIALLY* with grappling schools.  There are some cultures that sort of require super-secrecy around their martial arts (Indonesian Silat is one where it seems to be slightly more prevalent, but even then there are enough Silat schools that you should be able to find one that will let you watch a class or two).  However, Judo, BJJ, CaCC, etc. are all from cultures, or have adapted culturally, where you put it on the mat and there's no secrets, just hard work and skill.

That said, it is not unheard of for a school to require new students to take an introductory "New Student" or "Orientation" type course for a few weeks before joining the general student body (though I've never heard of it in grappling schools).

So yes, in my opinion, if a grappling school won't let you observe a few classes before joining in, run.  Get out.  Politely, but get out.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Steve (May 18, 2009)

You should be able to watch.  This happens regularly at my school.  

Your first class at my school would be free.  Our instructor usually has you do warmups with the class and then a blue belt or higher will go over the drills (hip escapes, rolls, technical standup and such), basic positioning, a basic guard pass (usually a knee over pass).  Then, if you have no previous grappling experience, you watch the sparring in the final 1/2 hour or so.  It's good exposure to the school, keeps you safe and gives you a good workout for your first class.  

I think most schools are like this, although some I'm sure will have you spar at the first class.


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## LoneRider (May 19, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys. I figured not allowing one to observe a class is a red flag to avoid.


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## matt.m (Jun 3, 2009)

Ya know all the bully dogpile stuff I saw in high school wrestling doesn't apply in BJJ gyms.  I am here to tell ya that unless the instructor is a hack then there will be no monkey business.


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## Steve (Jun 4, 2009)

matt.m said:


> Ya know all the bully dogpile stuff I saw in high school wrestling doesn't apply in BJJ gyms.  I am here to tell ya that unless the instructor is a hack then there will be no monkey business.


And, I'm not sure if I said this or not... but that video was clearly staged.  I'm not sure who was in it or why it was made, but that wasn't a candid encounter.


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## cooker1 (Jun 10, 2009)

The BJJ schools I've been around don't really bully older people. We are treated respectfully.


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