# "Black Flag" Wing Chun? Huh?



## Marnetmar (Mar 19, 2014)

Someone please tell me what the hell is going on here?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 19, 2014)

The *Black Flag Army (Chinese: &#40657;&#26071;&#20891;; pinyin: H&#275;iqí J&#363;n; Vietnamese: Quân c&#7901; &#273;en) was a splinter remnant of a bandit group recruited largely from soldiers of ethnic Zhuang background, who crossed the border in 1865 from Guangxi, China into Upper Tonkin, then part of the Empire of Annam (Vietnam). Although brigands, they were known mainly for their fights against the invading French forces, who were then moving into Tonkin. With the sanction of both Vietnamese and Chinese authorities, the Black Flags joined the Vietnamese regular forces, stemming French encroachment beyond the Red River Delta. The Black Flag Army is so named because of the preference of its commander, Liu Yongfu, for using black command flags.

*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Flag_Army


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## almost a ghost (Mar 19, 2014)

Looks like a mash up between white crane (the overall movements) with chow-gar (southern mantis) energy snapping/whipping. Pretty cool.


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## cwk (Mar 20, 2014)

It's based on lohan kung fu, I think


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## mook jong man (Mar 20, 2014)

cwk said:


> It's based on lohan kung fu, I think



That would mainly comprise of drunken flailing and vomiting wouldn't it ?


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## yak sao (Mar 20, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> That would mainly comprise of drunken flailing and vomiting wouldn't it ?




  nyuk nyuk


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## Vajramusti (Mar 20, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Someone please tell me what the hell is going on here?




junk


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## mook jong man (Mar 21, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> junk



Come on Joy.
Don't hold back , tell us what you really think.


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## yak sao (Mar 21, 2014)

Vajramusti said:


> junk




maybe he's referring to the red boats???


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## wingchun100 (Mar 21, 2014)

mook jong man said:


> That would mainly comprise of drunken flailing and vomiting wouldn't it ?



Not to mention forays into lesbianism/bisexuality. All the cool kids are doing it these days!


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## cwk (Mar 21, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to mention forays into lesbianism/bisexuality. All the cool kids are doing it these days!


 I think I might be a lesbian.


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## Marnetmar (Mar 21, 2014)

wingchun100 said:


> Not to mention forays into lesbianism/bisexuality. All the cool kids are doing it these days!



Could we please not go there


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## vtchisel (Mar 24, 2014)

Marnetmar said:


> Someone please tell me what the hell is going on here?



what going on here is a mixture of different style and made up history.
black flag is an old bandit group from China. Take advantage of the archives: http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...-another-look-at-Black-Flag-historical-claims

Here are some videos on the so called bfwc background.
Sam Chien by Shifu Thio Tek Kwie ( Full Version ) &#19977;&#25136;&#27494;&#34899; 












> Sanjaya Payangka
> 3 months ago
> 
> Lower sam chien was created by The Great Grand Master Kwee King Yang himself and still being practiced at Surabaya, Indonesia by his students untill now.. He modified the basic samchien from Wu Zu Quan after he met Tjia Pun Jiao a Grand Master from China when he was around 50 y.o.. Although his sam chien is similar to ngo cho kun, the use and power is totally different..&#65279;



and a video from the 18 hands of Lohan group





there is alot of information on this group out there if you look for it




ect.


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## Tong Chuang (Apr 24, 2014)

Ok, so I succumbed to the hype.
I admit to buying the 3-set 'Shaolin Black Flag Wing Chun' DVD set. Ebay - direct from Dayton, Ohio




It was a lot cheaper than paying for the lessons, plus there is no class near me as far as I know.
I am aware of most of the political arguments and mud-slinging that has gone on recently concerning the authenticity of this 'Lineage' - but I felt obliged to see the flip-side of the coin. My 'gut instinct' after reading the adverse propaganda told me not to waste the money - but my curiosity told me to find out for myself. Curiosity won.

When very knowledgeable Wing Chun practitioners such as *Sifu Benny Meng* and *Sifu Sergio* are suddenly *raving* about this new style they have discovered, it must have something to it that they have been searching for. I am aware that *Sifu Sergio* *no longer supports* this Lineage as genuine, and maybe he is right, but if you listen to this *Audio clip* of him (speaking to Sifu Paul Hawkes) he seems genuinely ('a massive, massive improvement') impressed: Paste into browser

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/44930001/a-conversation-with-sifu-sergio.mp3

After buying the DVD set I found this *Audio Clip* by *Sifu Paul Hawkes* (who I know of from going to a couple of his seminars, so I respect his view), which gives a more balanced assessment of the current status quo:





Blackflagwingchun.nl | The facts about Black Flag Wing Chun

I also noticed that Sifu Sergio seems to have *incorporated* some of the Black Flag impulse  / faat ging elements into his curriculum. So I was genuinely interested in seeing *what all the fuss* was about.
Well, now I've seen the DVD's, I've tried some of the concepts and I'm just trying to absorb the teaching.

My concluding impression, using all the limited facts available to me, (including several years practicing other WC) is:


Hek Ki Boen /Black Flag whatever you want to call it seems to be a hybrid system based on Luohan-Ng Cho Kun incorporating elements of Hung Fa Yi and other Wing Chun.
It has some interesting footwork / stances that might be useful in combat.

The shocking / impulse power, speed developed is *indeed impressive*.

If you wanted to* kill* someone with a *neck chop* - this would be the style to use

But would you want to kill someone and have that *karma* loaded on you?

Some of the concepts are presented as 'new' or unique but have been around before if you have some experience e.g the rebounding bong sau forward energy is taught in WT etc.
It requires a lot of *Yang energy* to practice

In summary, it has some useful unique concepts and techniques that are not in the mainstream WC.
I too, am doubtful of it's origins - but the truth is hard to find in the WC World.
My own choice would be to learn a Hung Fa Yi based system but having said that I personally am incorporating some of the Luohan-Ng Cho Kun Yang elements into my second way of performing Sil Lim Tao, Chum Kiu and Bil Jee. (The first way I perform them takes 20 mins for each one, but that is a Yin secret, ha ha ha ha maniacal laugh :boing1
I prefer the TWC / Hung Fa Yi footwork personally, compared to the Hek Ki Boen, but that is not to say it is ineffective, it seems to offer superior mobility than the Leung Ting Lineage (apart from his 'now I show you secret  footwork ha ha')

Absorb what is useful


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## Transk53 (Apr 25, 2014)

Interesting post :thup


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## wingchun100 (Apr 25, 2014)

Benny Meng? He came to my school when Yip Ching was in town for a seminar. Pretty cool to have one of Yip Man's sons right here in Albany.


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## Tong Chuang (Apr 25, 2014)

*Sifu Kenneth Lin* gives a glimpse of the Hek Ki Boen (Black Flag Wing Chun) *Wooden Dummy*:

Black Flag Wing Chun 2014 - YouTube
See that hand speed - ouch!

Note the _*Four Arms and 2 -axis pivoting*_ , interesting...





Student using Jong

Some of the Current Curriculum
The HKB Kuntao System General Overview: 
 (1) Four HKB Kuntao Forms; (a) Eng Chun Kun Form 
 Section 1: Sam Chian Po Section: 3 Battle Step. 
 Section 2: 108 Lohan Jiu Section: 108 Lohan Hands. 
 Section 3: Sat Si Mui Section: Pursuing 4 Direction 
 Section4: Hua Kun Section: Flowery Fist 
 Section 5: Ti Saam Chian Po Section: Earth 3 Battle Step. 
 Section 6: Tim Kiao Section: Sinking the bridge. 
 Section 7: Sam Chian w/ 9 Tendon Activation 
 Section 8: Dan Tian Sam Chian 
 Section 9: Sip Ji Kun Section: Character 10 Form 
 Section 10: Sam Chian w/ Qi Gong. 
 (b) Dummy Form / 2 Man Set Version 
 (c) Sang To (Double Butterfly Sword) 
 (d) Pat Mui Kun Huat (HKB Pole) 
more at :
HKB Eng Chun
HKB Wing Chun Program - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University

On the *retail DVDs*, as well as the Classic Straight Punch they use a *high hooking punch* on the basis that it's not all about the *straight line* between points but the most energy-efficient method that counts - Sifu Lin uses the example of instead of knocking down the wall - go through the nearby open door. 'All techniques in HKB are based on *curves* he claims.

Hek Ki Boen  *Wooden Dummy -section 7 sample pics:*
Black Flag Wing Chun Wooden Dummy [Hek Ki Boen Eng Chun Bok Jin Thoum] Section 7 - Hek Ki Boen Wing Chun Online University

They have online University and Webinars ...hmmm.

The Instructor program seems heavily geared to flow money up the *multi-level marketing Pyramid* and is hugely expensive:
http://web.archive.org/web/20140425213658/http://www.hekkiboen.com/enthusiastic/#.U1rXQ6I0qXE

Sifu Lin claims you can become a Kung Fu millionare! seems a bit too good to be true - where are all the students going to come from?


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