# Sakki test with live blade



## Bruno@MT (Mar 3, 2009)

I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?

I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was perhaps not so big an issue. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.

And if soke holds the cut before making contact, can the cut itself be considered a killing blow or not? What I am trying to say is that with a shinai, the person performing the cut can execute a cut with the intent to kill, because the shinai makes it safe enough. But with a blade this is not the case if death is to be prevented.

I know it is hardly a practical concern to me, but after reading the grading protocols I started thinking about it because renshi and kyoshi tests are done with a shinai, and jun-shihan and shihan test are done with a katana.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 3, 2009)

Interesting!


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## Tez3 (Mar 3, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?
> 
> I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was *perhaps not so big an issue*. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.
> 
> ...


 
I imagine it was a bit of a problem to the chap being killed.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 3, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> I imagine it was a bit of a problem to the chap being killed.


 
Well,... Yes. But he was in no position to complain anymore. 

Dueling and and death were not unheard of in martial arts. People like Musashi (but also in unarmed combat) fought duels to the death, and everybody accepted that death could happen. There would be no public outcry.

But if Tanemura sensei would behead someone sitting for the jun-shihan test, then there would be an outcry, and it would probably make the global news.
EDIT: Not saying that it would be unexpected. after all, it is a master level test to judge whether you can sense a real killing stroke. but such a thing is not really culturally acceptable anymore, although I don't know what the japanese think of this. Hence my question.


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 3, 2009)

> I don't know what the japanese think of this.


 
Average Japanese thinks of it same as American thinks of it. Baka(stupid).

I suppose a Japanese Budoka might see merit in it but average Japanese think crazy or stupid. Maybe if they saw it being done and the guy avoided it maybe Sugoi(wow/amazing)

You could always ask one of the Shihan such as Mr.Wright or Mr.Ron since they speak english and are the highest ranking non Japanese.


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## Katsujin-ken (Mar 3, 2009)

This is a description of the jun-shihan test, with italics to highlight some points of emphasis.

*TEST FOR JUN-SHIHAN:

*In a Dojo or other room, the examinee waits honorably in meditation.  The Soshi, bearing a Shinken (real sword), comes from behind and assumes Daijodan-no-Kamae or Nukiuchi-Dogiri-no-Kamae.  _Silently, the Soshi attacks emitting the deadly cutting Ki_.  Those who evade this attack with a collected body and spirit pass the test.  In ancient times, this test sometimes ended in a fatality, but what is important is to disregard the danger.  _Presently, the Soshi is able to determine whether an examinee will pass or fail before the test is done._

To me, it certainly sounds like this is not the kind of test you can just sign up for, nor will be permitted to take unless Tanemura Soke is confident you are ready to do so.   

For Shihan testing, it becomes more precarious, as one must evade two cuts (one vertical, one horizontal).  Moreover, Tanemura Soke will NOT emit Sakki.  Again, I would imagine candidates for this test would be pre-selected based on Tanemura Soke's discernment that they will pass.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 3, 2009)

Katsujin-ken said:


> To me, it certainly sounds like this is not the kind of test you can just sign up for, nor will be permitted to take unless Tanemura Soke is confident you are ready to do so. .


Yes it seems like this is a test that Tanemura would have to be 100% sure that the testee would pass. Even if he failed, I'm sure the sword weilder would stop just before finishing the cut. 



Katsujin-ken said:


> Tanemura Soke will NOT emit Sakki. Again, I would imagine candidates for this test would be pre-selected based on Tanemura Soke's discernment that they will pass.


 
I'm not sure what you mean here. Does tanemura not administer the test? Or does he do it but doesn't send killing intent. If the second statement is true how would the testee be able to detect the danger?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 3, 2009)

Did Tanermura Sensei sit a live sword test with Hatsumi Sensei or one of his other teacher's?


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## arnisador (Mar 3, 2009)

Live sword test? I'm not buying it. The legal dangers are too great.


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## redantstyle (Mar 3, 2009)

> _Presently, the Soshi is able to determine whether an examinee will pass or fail before the test is done._


 
how's that?


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## Katsujin-ken (Mar 3, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> Yes it seems like this is a test that Tanemura would have to be 100% sure that the testee would pass. Even if he failed, I'm sure the sword weilder would stop just before finishing the cut.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean here. Does tanemura not administer the test? Or does he do it but doesn't send killing intent. If the second statement is true how would the testee be able to detect the danger?



For the *Shihan* test (as distinct from *Jun-Shihan*), Tanemura Soke will attack, yet not emit or demonstrate sakki.  My understanding, and I could be wrong, is that one must then sense, as it were, the spirit, of the sword.  As well, this test, as with each mastership test, becomes more about the spiritual growth and progression of the individual more than just about physical technique alone.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 4, 2009)

Hi,

If I recall correctly, the Bujinkan Godan test used to be done with a live blade, there are certainly photos of people such as Charles Daniel undergoing the test against a metal blade. There are also pictures of a number of Japanese Shihan evading metal blades from behind, and Hatsumi was tested by Takamatsu with a live blade.

The idea is that the tester knows beforehand whether or not the student will pass, or they won't administer the test. If we look at these arts as being true old survival systems, designed to protect your life against real attacks, the application of techniques against real weapons should be expected... but you don't start out that way. In modern armies, would you expect the soldiers to train exclusively with blanks and fake bayonets, or would you want them to get used to the real thing?

It was changed in the Bujinkan to Shinai rather than Shinken mainly to avoid potential injury with the larger numbers of students testing. 

The only other thing I'll say here is that I said "metal blades". Without having been there and seen the weapons myself, I cannot categorically state that they are not Iaito or Mugito, but the term "live blade" has always been used.


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## Monadnock (Mar 4, 2009)

Are there any records of the test being applied before Takamatsu?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 4, 2009)

Well, the scrolls for Togakure Ryu have a number of Sakki Jutsu kata, each involving a slightly different evasion of a real sword. Most involve moving away before the attacker is close enough, but one is the well-known Bujinkan Godan test (Seiza, Uke in Daijodan, Shomen Giri, Zenpo Kaiten to evade). And the Gyokko Ryu has a couple of techniques for evading (and dealing with) a short sword attack from behind. Then the Shinden Fudo Ryu (Dakentaijutsu) has a seated evasion and technique against a downward sword cut from behind. So it exists in the various scrolls from a number of Ryuha.

As for it being used as a test, it has been said that only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer it as a test, if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven". I haven't seen any documentation or heard any stories about Toda Sensei testing in this way, but it wld not entirely surprise me if he did.


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 4, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> As for it being used as a test, it has been said that only the Soke of Togakure Ryu can administer it as a test, if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven".


 
well that sounds...ominous.

Two questions:

I always thought this test was about sensing the killing intention of the person behind the blade, hence that is why you get the signal to move. If there was no killing intent there would be no reason why your body should signal for you to get out of the way? 

Mr. Parker: Are you getting all this information from books or from oral teachings? If there are books with this knowledge in them I would definitely like to know if I could locate them somewhere.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 4, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> if anyone else does, they will "suffer the wrath of Heaven".



I hate that.  Rikkimaru comes and sits on the roof, and the samurai guards never look up but just stare at a blank wall... then they eat poison rice that sits on ground for no reason. 

I hate suffering thru Wrath of Heaven.  I'd rather Suffer thru Tenchu Z.


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## Chris Parker (Mar 5, 2009)

Himura Kenshin said:


> well that sounds...ominous.
> 
> Two questions:
> 
> ...


 
There are a number of explanations I have heard for how/why sensing an unseen attack works. Without getting into the details of them, the easiest way to experience or learn the skill is against a commited, directed intention, and Sakki ("killing energy") immediately kicks your natural survival instincts into the mix. So what you are doing in this test is accessing the deeper, natural instict you possess to stay alive, and allowing your (conscious) mind to get out of the way so your body can do what it needs in order to survive.

This skill is not unique to Ninjutsu, or the Martial Arts of Japan. Combat veterans often develop the same talent, simply surviving a number of life-threatening encounters can help you tap into your primal survival skills. But the bullets flying at you don't have any intention. And the person who fired them may have no real intention, or at least, none directed towards you. And yet you still get out of the way. So the Sakki aspect is crucial, particularly if something like a Shinai is used, but when the skill is truly developed, you should be able to evade a lethal threat even when no true "killing intention" is present. Think of a runaway car, or bus. It doesn't want to hit you, the driver (if there is one) probably doesn't want to hit you. But that doesn't make it any better when you get hit, so I would prefer to be able to get out of the way anyway.

And as for how I learned, and continue to learn, every source I can find. Look to the books others (and myself) have recommended, there is a good post from Saitama on the Original Samurai Arts thread...

Oh, and Cryo, hey, I didn't write the scroll... but it's not uncommon for these types of things to be written. When becoming amember of schools such as the Tenshin Shoden Katori Shinto Ryu, or the Kashima Shinryu, you undertake a Blood Oath, cutting your finger in a specific place to sign a contract with your own blood. The contract often states that you subject yourself to various gruesome punishments from a variety of Deities should you break your covenant with the school, or reveal the schools secrets. And that's retribution from Oni and Tengu (Demons), so I'll take my chances with Heaven...


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## terryl965 (Mar 5, 2009)

Bruno@MT said:


> I read in the gebukan documentation that the jun-shihan and shihan sakki tests are performed with a live blade. So the obvious question is: does failing the test mean you get killed?
> 
> I can imagine this being true in feudal times when death by sword was perhaps not so big an issue. But in modern days it would be problematic I guess.
> 
> ...


 

This is interesting, does anyone have any video of this being done with a live blade?


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## redantstyle (Mar 5, 2009)

> But the bullets flying at you don't have any intention. And the person who fired them may have no real intention, or at least, none directed towards you. And yet you still get out of the way.


 
now people are dodging bullets?


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 5, 2009)

terryl965 said:


> This is interesting, does anyone have any video of this being done with a live blade?


 
According to the genbukan web page, there are no shihan, and only 8 (?) jun-shihan. So the shihan test has never been done before, unless the webpage is out of date (which happens).

And only (jun) shihan and soke are present, so I don't think it has been filmed.


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## Kreth (Mar 5, 2009)

Chris Parker said:


> And that's retribution from Oni and Tengu (Demons), so I'll take my chances with Heaven...


Bring 'em on, I know onikudaki. :lol:


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## Chris Parker (Mar 6, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> now people are dodging bullets?


 
Okay, might be getting a tad literal. But speak with combat veterans. Even if they haven't developed the skill themselves, they often know of someone in the group that, if they suddenly get under cover, so does everyone else. And the way the bullets are dodged is by moving before they are fired... again, look to stories of someone who "just moved", then a bullet ricochets past where their head was moments ago.

But this is just one application. And it is just a modern military interpretation. Not definitive by any means. And if you don't believe these skills, that's fine. I'm not here to convince you, I've heard of many high ranking and experienced Martial Artist who don't. And if you do, that's fine as well.

And good luck with your Onikudaki, Kreth. Just hope they don't know the Kaeshi waza for it!


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## Aiki Lee (Mar 6, 2009)

redantstyle said:


> now people are dodging bullets?


 

you mean you don't?

Oh and Kreth, that was pretty funny. Kudos.


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 6, 2009)

I suddenly have this image in my head of Neo doing the sakki test


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## redantstyle (Mar 7, 2009)

> Okay, might be getting a tad literal. But speak with combat veterans. Even if they haven't developed the skill themselves, they often know of someone in the group that, if they suddenly get under cover, so does everyone else. And the way the bullets are dodged is by moving before they are fired... again, look to stories of someone who "just moved", then a bullet ricochets past where their head was moments ago.
> 
> But this is just one application. And it is just a modern military interpretation. Not definitive by any means. And if you don't believe these skills, that's fine. I'm not here to convince you, I've heard of many high ranking and experienced Martial Artist who don't. And if you do, that's fine as well


 
fair enough.  

i do think that people can exhibit or experience some rather odd states when confronted with a life and death situation.   one 'thing' that i know can occur is a 'slowing' of subjective time.  it's not the same matter that is being discussed here, but in the same realm, i think.

as a general rule, i dont think you can 'display' those types of skills, though.

regards.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 7, 2009)

Well, I've experienced this sort of thing on my Motorcycle, got "the creeps and suddenly slowed way down, gone around a corner and found deer in the road...

The Deer dont have killiing intent, but they were there... is it Sakki, Magic Power, Psychic phenominon, or just coincidence? 

*shrug*

I didnt hit any deer, and in the end thats all I care about.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 8, 2009)

Hello,

My name is Troy Wideman and I am ranked Genbukan Ninpo 6th Dan and I am the Shibu Cho for Canada. The Shihan have passed the sakki test with a live blade. The test is comprised of two cuts, one straight down and the other either left to right or right to left.


Respectfully,

Troy Wideman


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## arnisador (Mar 8, 2009)

What happens whens someone fails the test?


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## Chris Parker (Mar 9, 2009)

I think, simply, they don't get to take it again... 

But, really, the test isn't just administered to anyone who wants it. It must be established that you will pass before, otherwise there's not much positive that could be said about it.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 9, 2009)

Hello,

I have asked the question myself, hahaha, mainly because there are a few of us to be taking it next. There have been some close calls. So I've been told. The idea of the test is to throw away your life for one moment, and to be in the moment. It is really not that much different than the Kyoshi test, only that the stakes are higher if you fail. However, I  believe Sensei has a good idea if you are ready to pass it and would not let you sit if he felt you were not ready.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Cryozombie (Mar 9, 2009)

Troy Wideman said:


> However, I believe Sensei has a good idea if you are ready to pass it and would not let you sit if he felt you were not ready.
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman


 
Its gonna suck to be him when he's wrong.  ;P


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## JadecloudAlchemist (Mar 9, 2009)

Do you have to sign a waiver so if you do get cut or killed you or your family does not sue?


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## redantstyle (Mar 9, 2009)

when's the last time anybody got cut?


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 9, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Its gonna suck to be him when he's wrong. ;P


 
In case you were refering to Tanemura sensei, I'd say no. It will suck worse for the one taking the test, assuming that he didn't have a career as headless horseman in mind. 

But all joking aside, Tanemura sensei probably has enough control to stop a killing stroke even after it was initiated.


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## ElfTengu (Mar 12, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> Well, I've experienced this sort of thing on my Motorcycle, got "the creeps and suddenly slowed way down, gone around a corner and found deer in the road...
> 
> The Deer dont have killiing intent, but they were there... is it Sakki, Magic Power, Psychic phenominon, or just coincidence?
> 
> ...


 
Bingo, fellow biker-dude.

I think we make too much of the sakki aspect in the Bujinkan. A scaffold pole falling towards your head with gravity being the only force behind it is going to kill you just as surely as a sword being aimed with murderous intent and yet many people who consciously or subconsciously hone their senses through dedicated taijutsu or similar training will dodge the pole.

An antler through the aorta can be nasty as well! 

My brother has had very little MA training but had a similar motorcyling experience when he felt the need to change lane and in the lane he had just been in a car slammed into the car in front and he would have been sandwiched at high speed if he hadn't moved. I have had similar less dramatic experiences myself and believe that motorcycling is a good vehicle (if you pardon the pun) for developing a heightened state of spatial awareness and spidey-sense.

I do believe that a shinken is used for the test though, and not just a mogito, and also that, like any other test, a driving test or academic exam etc, it is unlikely that someone is entered for the test before they are more than ready for it (except the driving test perhaps, now that I think about it).


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 12, 2009)

I would agree that it is much about nothing in the end.


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## ElfTengu (Mar 12, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> I would agree that it is much about nothing in the end.


 
Ah yes, the old Mu cow!


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## arnisador (Mar 12, 2009)

arnisador said:


> What happens whens someone fails the test?





Chris Parker said:


> I think, simply, they don't get to take it again...



Because they're dead or maimed?

It isn't really a 'test' if 100% of the people pass it, is it? At that point it's more of a ceremony.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 12, 2009)

It would be interesting to see, how many people would actually take the test if the Bujinkan used a real sword for the test. People come up and take the test without a thought when they have nothing to loose. I did not say that no one has failed the test. I am sure that sensei has the skill to stop a killing cut but the threat of the possibility of something happening is very real. If you have witnessed a Genbukan Sakki test, the cut is right to the floor with no holding back. When I first joined the Genbukan back in 1993, I truly had doubts about the sakki test because I had witnessed other tests in other places that I thought were a joke. That was until I had the priviledge of watching Shihan James Wrights test in Japan. I have done alot of force on force training and there was just no way with the speed of Sensei's cut that even if Shihan had heard it, would have escaped. Sensei,  broke the fukuro shinai on the ground he cut so hard and fast. That was the point that I started to believe the test was possible and real. Now it really does not matter if your believe me or not, it is something that has to be seen and felt.
Inrelation to the merit of the test and its purpose. Anyone in the military field or policing knows that this is talked about in all the military and police manuals. They mainly refer to it as your gut feeling etc. All human beings have the ability, it is just another thing when someone tells you to sit and calm yourself and feel it at that instant. If you speak to anyone that has been in active combat they will talk about it. There are other martial arts that do similar types of things, ie; philipino martial arts, indian etc. I have many friends in other martial arts that have told me of similar stories of when they have been fighting.
I once taught a young boy that was deaf in both ears and I tried the test on him with a ball being thrown at his back as his father watched. It was amazing to watch him avoid the ball without a thought.
We all hope that no matter what art we train in that we can attain a level of avoiding danger before it happens. 
I wish everyone on this board luck in their training no matter what art or organization and that if they are training in a Ninpo art, when you take the test, sit with your back straight and loose all thought. Accept the cut and trust in your teacher, hopefully this will help you to pass. You will not have the gates of heaven open up, only the feeling of "Get the hell out of the way".

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Bruno@MT (Mar 13, 2009)

Troy Wideman said:


> It would be interesting to see, how many people would actually take the test if the Bujinkan used a real sword for the test. People come up and take the test without a thought when they have nothing to loose.


 
+1 on this. If you don't feel confident that you could do this, you should not take the test lightly in the safe knowledge that nothing bad can happen.



Troy Wideman said:


> If you have witnessed a Genbukan Sakki test, the cut is right to the floor with no holding back. When I first joined the Genbukan back in 1993, I truly had doubts about the sakki test because I had witnessed other tests in other places that I thought were a joke. That was until I had the priviledge of watching Shihan James Wrights test in Japan. I have done alot of force on force training and there was just no way with the speed of Sensei's cut that even if Shihan had heard it, would have escaped. Sensei, broke the fukuro shinai on the ground he cut so hard and fast. That was the point that I started to believe the test was possible and real. Now it really does not matter if your believe me or not, it is something that has to be seen and felt.


 
Thanks for sharing.



Troy Wideman said:


> I wish everyone on this board luck in their training no matter what art or organization and that if they are training in a Ninpo art, when you take the test, sit with your back straight and loose all thought. Accept the cut and trust in your teacher, hopefully this will help you to pass. You will not have the gates of heaven open up, only the feeling of "Get the hell out of the way".


 
Thanks for your advice.
It is unlikely in the extreme that I ever get to a point where I can sit for the sakki test. If I do, then it is by no means a given that I will take the test. But I will keep your advice in mind.


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## ElfTengu (Mar 13, 2009)

This is all good, however it was said that the Genbukan test was done on at least one occasion with no sakki being emitted by your Soke.

So is it a test of feeling the intention of another human being, or a simple gut feeling of impending danger (as per the scaffold pole and motorcycling analogies), or a combination of both, or something altogether different and difficult to explain in words?

Not that gut feeling is unkown to the Japanese mindset, it is literally known as Haragei from which I am sure you can spot the reference to the gut or belly.

Now haragei extends beyond a feeling of impending danger, and beyond the perception of another human being's malicious/murderous intent, it is also about perceving martial ability in another person, regardless of whether they are a potential friend or enemy. I believe Hatsumi Soke referred to it with a example from samurai comic books where two characters say something along the lines of "There is something about you", a martial je ne sais quoi if you like.

Most of us can spot dangerous people in a crowd, it is ususally not rocket science because such people often want to appear dangerous because they can then do as they like with little resistance due to the fear of those who are acknowledging their Alpha-male persona exhibition.

But many people without knowing it can also exude a quiet confidence, intentionally or unintentionally, which is almost as perceptible as the chest thumping of the aforementioned individual. And because many of the unpleasant characters in society are cowards at heart they will often try to gauge in advance the likelihood of their intended victim putting up a fight. In which case they will either move onto another target or excalate their plan of attack into use of knives, guns or recruit other wolves for strength in numbers.

Ninpo practitioners should not exude anything really, but I also doubt if we would put out the obvious victim-waves of an injured fish to be picked up by any predators in the vicinity. It is a balance of not looking like a victim and not looking like a threat.

Another point is how often I am surprised to find out that someone is a martial arts yudansha, without picking up on anything myself, and probably without conscious effort on their part to conceal it, so there is probably an aspect of ego to this. If you think you are great, you will have a harder time trying to keep a low profile.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 13, 2009)

Hello ElfTengu,

There is a differnence between the 7th dan test and the 8th dan test. However, I will not attempt to explain it, first off I am not at that level yet and I would only be guessing at how it works. I guess after I pass the test I will be able to tell you more . 
I can only comment truly on the things I have ranked in and passed. I am looking forward to the test though.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 13, 2009)

Hi Troy I truthfully enjoy your posts but a few things stuck out at me.



Troy Wideman said:


> It would be interesting to see, how many people would actually take the test if the Bujinkan used a real sword for the test. People come up and take the test without a thought when they have nothing to loose.



*I imagine if Soke decides to administer it this way and.... may already have that several people may get the chance.*



Troy Wideman said:


> I did not say that no one has failed the test. I am sure that sensei has the skill to stop a killing cut but the threat of the possibility of something happening is very real. If you have witnessed a Genbukan Sakki test, the cut is right to the floor with no holding back.



*I have also observed multiple Bujinkan test with cuts to the floor. (which is not really important by the way)*



Troy Wideman said:


> I wish everyone on this board luck in their training no matter what art or organization and that if they are training in a Ninpo art, when you take the test, sit with your back straight and loose all thought. Accept the cut and trust in your teacher, hopefully this will help you to pass. You will not have the gates of heaven open up, only the feeling of "Get the hell out of the way".
> 
> Kind Regards,
> 
> Troy Wideman



*Absolutely wish you the best of luck as well! *








......Now as to people who have been there and done that in a field requiring awareness and the ability to feel or have a gut check so to speak. (or also civilians who have been in the moment)  There are simply lots of people out there that have that kind of experience.  That is real world, real time, experience that is well very relevant to life saving skills.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 13, 2009)

Hi Brian,

Thank you, glad you enjoy them. I really don't post to much. The only reason why I posted on this forum was to clear up the matter about the shihan and their test. I was also impressed with the way people handled themselves, polite and courteous even though we might not agree with each others opinions.
To your first questions, yes that might be the way he wishes to administer the test and it is really not my place to comment on the bujinkan anymore because I am no longer a member. I did not mean any disrespect. I actually used to be a 3rd dan under Doron Navon, however, that is in the past, way back in the 80's, man I'm getting old.

Inrelation to the cut not having to be all the way to the floor. This I beg to differ, it is extremely more difficult to move the whole body out of the way then just duck the head to the side. The timing for the movement must be exact and you must truly have felt the attack. If you just move the head you have more room to cheat. Yes, I know some of the bujinkan tests have been to the floor, I watched youtube. I actually watched Ralph Severe's test on youtube, I know in the bujinkan he is a contensious subject, however, it looked to be a good test, just not to the floor , and some of the other tests were good. However, to watch a video and rate a test is not the same as being there and feeling the energy in the room from the Soke. In Japan, if you do not pass your test on the first try you are considered low class because in the old days, or for genbukan present (7th dan), it was a reall sword and you would be dead or seriously injured.

For us, during the kyoshi test you must roll and escape or Tanemura Sensei will cut you a second time. If you do not escape enough he will cut you a second time and fail you. Also, just because you are 5th Dan in the Genbukan does not mean you get to take the kyoshi test.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 13, 2009)

Hi Brian, 

I have all kinds of old video's from the 80's of Doron Navon, Ilan Gatengno, Moti Navi, etc. If you like send me your contact info and I will try to free up some time to send you a copy.

Also noticed your signature says; instinctive response training, what is this in relation to. Are you a police officer, military etc. Just curious. I spent 10 years on a Tactical Team and was 2IC, I also am currently assigned to my departments training branch and conduct all use of force and firearms training.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## ElfTengu (Mar 14, 2009)

Troy Wideman said:


> Hello ElfTengu,
> 
> There is a differnence between the 7th dan test and the 8th dan test. However, I will not attempt to explain it, first off I am not at that level yet and I would only be guessing at how it works. I guess after I pass the test I will be able to tell you more .
> I can only comment truly on the things I have ranked in and passed. I am looking forward to the test though.
> ...


 
Hi Troy,

I trained under Doron when he visited the UK in the 80s, he was something else, what with the Feldenkrais material as well.

Back in the aforementioned decade it was believed by many people that the Bujinkan Sakki Test was performed with a shinai at 5th dan, a bokken at 6th dan, and a shinken at 7th dan, and this was at a time when I don't believe there was anyone over 8th or 9th dan in the org. I don't know if this was true but I don't believe anyone gets re-tested after 5th dan these days in our org.

Just for info by the way, I have yet to even take the 5th dan test despite my years!


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## ElfTengu (Mar 14, 2009)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> *I imagine if Soke decides to administer it this way and.... may already have that several people may get the chance.*


 
What are you suggesting Brian, an overdue yondan whom Soke would be happy to test with a live blade?


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 14, 2009)

Hello Elf Tengu,

Yes, I heard that same story back in the 80's about the Bujinkan sakki Test. I already told Brian this story but I will relay it to you as well. In the 80's we were all training at a club owned by Greg Tremblay, very nice guy, and Ed Brown. I believe Greg was under the Shadows of Iga back then. It was the only Ninpo club around and I was driving from Kitchener. We were sitting there training and a small gentleman walks in and sits down and watches the class. At the end of training he walks up to us and introduces himself as Doron Navon a 5th dan under Hatsummi. We all thought he was full of it, up until that point all the information stated that Steven Hayes was the only foreingner. Greg then calls down to speak with Steven Hayes and Steven Hayes almost jumps through the phone that Doron is in Canada and was wondering what he was doing up there. Well that is how we all got connect to Doron Navon. Doron was up here studying Feldenkrais and living at the university of Toronto. I immediately noticed a difference between what Doron was teaching and what was being taught in the states ie: earth, wind, fire etc. The techniques were done hard and precise by Doron. I eventually ranked to 3rd dan under Doron, he was a great man, I respect the Israeli Bujinkan instructors immensley. I actually spent a month there training at the Israeli honbu dojo back in 87. Unfortunately, I lost contact with them and started to search out information myself since there was not much about the core of the art. I traveled around and attended all the Manaka seminars. I then found out about Tanemura Sensei and attended one of his seminars and realised right away that I had found my true teacher. I have been training hard since and I am a loyal student of Tanemura Sensei.
An interesting side note is that Doron was a student of Tanemura Sensei's until he broke away from the bujinkan. Tanemura sensei used to teach all the foreigners first before they would get to see Hatsummi.

Just a little history for you.

Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Chris Parker (Mar 15, 2009)

Hi Troy,

First off, I wish you the best with your test. I would say good luck, if I felt luck was a major factor...

And to add to your history lesson, if you check out Hayes' first book ("The Ninja and Their Secret Fighting Art", sometimes refered to as "the green book"), the entire book documents Hayes' recollection of his early training experiences in Japan. In this book, it is explicitly obvious that Hayes' actual first teacher was Tanemura Sensei, and only Hatsumi Sensei later. There is actually an interesting little meeting/demonstration in Hayes' hotel between Hayes, Hatsumi and Tanemura in which he is accepted as a student, and instructed to meet Tanemura the next day.


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## Troy Wideman (Mar 15, 2009)

HI Chris,

Yes, I actually knew that and know the whole story behind it. It is actually quite a humorous story. The other story is how Danny waxman (hope I spelt his name right) and Doron became students. Tanemura Sensei actually had to knock out doron to prove the art was real, this was under the noda bachi. However, don't need to go into detail with these stories or it might ruffle some feathers and I truly appreciate how people handle themselves on this forum.


Kind Regards,

Troy Wideman


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 15, 2009)

Hey Troy,

Those are good stories.


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