# Chil Sung Forms.



## IMP

I've learned the first two of these forms, but I've always heard that they weren't regulation teachings. Why is this said, and is it actually true? I know they aren't very common anymore, at least that I can see, but why were they cut out of the system of teaching? Thanks for any info on this!


----------



## B.Redfield

The Chil Sun Hyung Set, is the newest set,(beside Yuk Ro & Ship Pal ) Grand Master Hwang Kee created them in the 50's released them officially in the 80's? 
Many of the older breakaway organizations do not do them. Some have adopted them, badly, not the way GM Hwang Kee wanted them done at all. Some claim to do them the way they should be done, but if GM Hwang Kee performed them a certain way, that is the way they should be done, period. GM HC Hwang has made some changes, still not the way GM Hwang Kee intended them to be.  Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan does them the original way GM Hwang Kee intended, as far as I know, TSDMGK is one of the only orgs to do ALL the TSD Sylibus. Of course I am bias LOL

TANG SOO!
b


----------



## Muwubu16858

> The Chil Sun Hyung Set, is the newest set,(beside Yuk Ro & Ship Pal )


 
I believe the last one is Ship Dahn Khum, or something of the sort. Ship Pal Hyung is the Korean name for the karate kata Seipai, which is one of 4 kata I train daily for when I do demonstrations. I also use the forms Jang Jin, Jun Jang and Pal Chae So for my demos.


----------



## B.Redfield

Yes, that sounds more like it, it's not taught in the US though. I woudln't mind seeing them though, just to get a feel for them. Don't know Jang Jin, or Jun Jang though,  you use the old name for Bassai So?  is it the same as TSD Bassai So??


----------



## JoelD

B.Redfield said:


> GM HC Hwang has made some changes, still not the way GM Hwang Kee intended them to be.


 
Master Redfield,
Could you give me a couple of examples of some of the changes KJN HC Hwang made to the Chil Sungs... In particular, the first three, if any were made to those?

The reason i ask about the first three is that I only know those at my current level (3rd gup). You can give examples in the rest of them as well. Even though they are above my rank requirements i have seen them performed enough times to know which is which. Thanks.

Just so you understand... I am not asking you this because i don't believe you. I'm just interested to know.  Thanks again, sir.


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

B.Redfield said:


> Yes, that sounds more like it, it's not taught in the US though. I woudln't mind seeing them though, just to get a feel for them. Don't know Jang Jin, or Jun Jang though,  you use the old name for Bassai So?  is it the same as TSD Bassai So??



AFAIK, Bassai So = TSD Palche So, since I do TSD, and we call it Palche So. There might be a few differences in some techniques between styles, but from what I've seen they're the same.


----------



## Muwubu16858

> Don't know Jang Jin, or Jun Jang though, you use the old name for Bassai So? is it the same as TSD Bassai So??


 
Jang Jin (Sochin [I'm refering to Aragaki Sochin, not Shotokan Sochin, which I also do]) and Jun Jang (Tensho). The Pal Chae So (Bassai Sho) that I do is the Itosu style, not Tang Soo Do style. In fact, my photo above that's on all my posts is a move from the original Bassai Sho. I may post the video soon, as I am currently video taping all the hyung I know as a reference for myself, and a few of my senior students.


----------



## MBuzzy

The Chil Sung Hyung are alive and well.  I am of course biased as well.  As a member of the US Soo Bahk Do Moo Duk Kwan Federation, the Chil Sungs are required.  In fact, they are emphasized, even more than the Pyang ahns.  I've learned 3 to date and have started working on the 4th.  I can't speak as to how close they are to how KJN Hwang Kee taught them, although we do have some members here who may be able to tell you.


----------



## IMP

I've learned the first two of them, but once I transferred schools, I completely dropped them. In fact, my original teacher dropped them near the end of my time in his class. But I had no idea that they were still being taught regularly.


----------



## IMP

Y'know, while I think about it, aren't there TWO bassai forms? We only have one that we practice.


----------



## MBuzzy

IMP said:


> Y'know, while I think about it, aren't there TWO bassai forms? We only have one that we practice.



You're right, there aren't two....if you look around you will find many different versions between all of the different styles.  I once found 10 different Bassai forms, between Korean, Japanese, and Chinese styles.  I don't know how different they actually are though.

Within TSD/SBD, there are two.  Hwang Kee taught both Bassai Dai and Bassai sho.  Meaning Bassai greater and Bassai lesser.  I know that the International TSD Federation still teaches Bassai Sho regularly, but it was cut from the US SBD Fed curriculum years ago.  

I think that it is a cool looking form though!


----------



## Lynne

IMP said:


> I've learned the first two of them, but once I transferred schools, I completely dropped them. In fact, my original teacher dropped them near the end of my time in his class. But I had no idea that they were still being taught regularly.


 They are required learning in the American Tang Soo Do Association.  http://www.grandmasterbyrne.com/


----------



## Makalakumu

Do you still practice the Chil Sung hyungs, IMP?  I dropped them because I'd never be able to learn or teach the whole set, they had been changed since I learned them, and we have too many forms the way it stands now.

Do you like the chil sung forms that you learned?  Why?

With much respect

maunakumu


----------



## JT_the_Ninja

IMP said:


> Y'know, while I think about it, aren't there TWO bassai forms? We only have one that we practice.



The ITF (International Tang Soo Do Federation) teaches both palche so and palche deh (bassai so/deh), although we don't do any of the chil sung or yuk ro hyung...anymore. My sa bom nim said he learned up to chil sung sam ro before they stopped teaching them.


----------



## B.Redfield

What I noticed,with the Chil Suns/Yuk Ro, and maybe it was the people demonstrating, but it seems the rythm of the forms is slower and softer than I remember,  If you watch Soo Bahk Do vs American TSD vs TSDMGK, you will see three diff rythms to the forms, SBD and TSDMGK would be closer, while Am TSD really does them more like a hard style form, instead of a hard/soft, form if you understand. the form Hwa Sun one of my favorites is not the same one at all I learned, I was told the MDK changed that form, and I'm doing the old one. 

Are the Pyang Ahns still required? I had heard they were being phased out.


----------



## JoelD

youre referring to the Hwa Sun that still contains the sitting move, right?


----------



## B.Redfield

yup, although we don't do the sit, more like the part in Chil Son Oh Lo, where most people bump their buts on the ground on the beginning of the return down the centerline.


----------



## clfsean

MBuzzy said:


> You're right, there aren't two....if you look around you will find many different versions between all of the different styles.  I once found 10 different Bassai forms, between Korean, Japanese, and Chinese styles.  I don't know how different they actually are though.



Chinese Bassai? Gotta link to it?


----------



## IMP

maunakumu said:


> Do you still practice the Chil Sung hyungs, IMP? I dropped them because I'd never be able to learn or teach the whole set, they had been changed since I learned them, and we have too many forms the way it stands now.
> 
> Do you like the chil sung forms that you learned? Why?
> 
> With much respect
> 
> maunakumu


 
Yes, I do still practice the Chil Sungs I did learn, even though they aren't taught in my new school. Ill Ro has always been my favorite form to do, mostly because I have a lot of stress in my life, and the extensive breathing in it helps me with that. Ee Ro I practice on rare occasions, but I still do it.

The Chil Sung forms I learned were always my favorite of all the forms I learned (with the possible exception of Pyung Ahn O Dan) and I believe they should be taught.


----------



## MBuzzy

B.Redfield said:


> Are the Pyang Ahns still required? I had heard they were being phased out.



That's even a rumor within the federation....although it has apparently been a rumor for the last 20 years.  They aren't as emphasized, but they're not going anywhere.


----------



## Makalakumu

IMP said:


> Yes, I do still practice the Chil Sungs I did learn, even though they aren't taught in my new school. Ill Ro has always been my favorite form to do, mostly because I have a lot of stress in my life, and the extensive breathing in it helps me with that. Ee Ro I practice on rare occasions, but I still do it.


 
I no longer practice the chil sung forms.  I have three tai chi forms that I practice in order to get the benefits of slow breathing and chi work.



IMP said:


> The Chil Sung forms I learned were always my favorite of all the forms I learned (with the possible exception of Pyung Ahn O Dan) and I believe they should be taught.


 
The chil sung forms are cool forms, when practiced correctly.  In my conception of TSD, however, they didn't fit.  We had been practicing them how I was taught, but how I was taught was wrong because many changes had been made.  Dropping them was a move to preserve the integrity of my art.  I no longer even practice them, preferring to focus on the Okinawan and Japanese forms.

However, I would encourage you to keep practicing the chil sung forms and forming your own ideas regarding them.  Keep sharing and you'll teach me a thing or two.


----------



## IMP

maunakumu said:


> I no longer practice the chil sung forms. I have three tai chi forms that I practice in order to get the benefits of slow breathing and chi work.
> 
> 
> 
> The chil sung forms are cool forms, when practiced correctly. In my conception of TSD, however, they didn't fit. We had been practicing them how I was taught, but how I was taught was wrong because many changes had been made. Dropping them was a move to preserve the integrity of my art. I no longer even practice them, preferring to focus on the Okinawan and Japanese forms.
> 
> However, I would encourage you to keep practicing the chil sung forms and forming your own ideas regarding them. Keep sharing and you'll teach me a thing or two.


 
 Yeah, I've been looking at tai chi. I have a friend who started it and she says it really helps with breathing

Hmmm... I suppose that makes sense. There are different forms of forms, so any or all of them COULD be wrong, even just by tweaking it a bit to use in your class.


 I've been steadily working on everything I know, from each of my schools. Seeing both viewpoints is really interesting, especially all of my new Ill soo shik/ho sin sul.


----------



## Gi1

B.Redfield said:


> The Chil Sun Hyung Set, is the newest set,(beside Yuk Ro & Ship Pal ) Grand Master Hwang Kee created them in the 50's released them officially in the 80's?
> Many of the older breakaway organizations do not do them. Some have adopted them, badly, not the way GM Hwang Kee wanted them done at all. Some claim to do them the way they should be done, but if GM Hwang Kee performed them a certain way, that is the way they should be done, period. GM HC Hwang has made some changes, still not the way GM Hwang Kee intended them to be.  Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan does them the original way GM Hwang Kee intended, as far as I know, TSDMGK is one of the only orgs to do ALL the TSD Sylibus. Of course I am bias LOL
> 
> TANG SOO!
> b


 I agree, only we do them all (UK TSDF MDK)


----------



## B.Redfield

G1, Were you in Inverness, Scotland last year by chance?


----------



## Gi1

No sorry that wasn't me


----------



## Kaygee

I know the first three Chil Sung forms, and I am a big fan of them (even though Chil Sung ee Lo is more or less just a Pyung Ahn form if you look at it). Most of the tournaments that I go to will not allow you to perform them in competition and my school never tests you on them, so we just do them as an added bonus, I guess.

There is one tournament held every year in May that allows us to use them in competition though, so that's pretty cool.

The one master in my school does them the correct way! He is a student of the Chil Sung forms and they are unbelievable to watch when he performs them. But neither of my masters know the 7th one very well, so I doubt I will ever learn that one....

But hey, six is cool, because they are beautiful, fluent forms! I love em!


----------



## dancingalone

Kaygee said:


> I know the first three Chil Sung forms, and I am a big fan of them (even though Chil Sung ee Lo is more or less just a Pyung Ahn form if you look at it). Most of the tournaments that I go to will not allow you to perform them in competition and my school never tests you on them, so we just do them as an added bonus, I guess.
> 
> There is one tournament held every year in May that allows us to use them in competition though, so that's pretty cool.
> 
> The one master in my school does them the correct way! He is a student of the Chil Sung forms and they are unbelievable to watch when he performs them. But neither of my masters know the 7th one very well, so I doubt I will ever learn that one....
> 
> But hey, six is cool, because they are beautiful, fluent forms! I love em!



They do well in the open tournament circuit in my part of the woods.  I think part of it is because they're somewhat rare, and the novelty appeals to judges.  Heck, I'll admit to being a little bored the last time I judged a [big] teenage dan division and basically all I saw was Bassai, Koryo, Chung Mu performed.


----------

