# Variations on styles - good or bad?



## Blaze Dragon (Jan 25, 2013)

So some of the recent posts and discussions have been about styles and how it can different. We see this in taji for example when I try and look online to find a starting point it seems one of the main branches comes from Wang Zongyue. Yet out of that we have today Chen, Yang, Wu, Sun and Hao. This I think happens in many styles, but I've been looking more into researching and reading books on taiji so that's what I mentioned 

I am thinking that every time a person learns a style and reteaches it changes a bit from the original. I also think that people will add something to it from time to time. Like Wong Fei-Hung and Hung Gar. He was credited for adding his own sequences into the training. 

Do you feel that this change is inevitable and good or do you think that if an art changes then it's not being taught correctly or the student is just not understanding?


this question was sparked by Xu Yusheng Yang style, and discussions of Cheng Manching and how the techniques vary from others it seems.


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## sicko (Jan 25, 2013)

Hi,
I don't agree with you about the changes. At least not from Chen style. You see, there are a lot of videos, where Chen Xiaowang explains Chen style taijiquan. Step by step, movement after movement, change after change. Everything down to the smallest part of your body. And as Xiaowang is the top recognized in Chen family I would say that his is the real style, like his father tought him. 
I have a teacher that was learning after him and when I look at those videos, I see we do exactly the same, with not a minimal variation. 

But this is about Chen. I heard, that in Yang it does differ a lot from teacher to teacher and that is really hard to get the true Yang style around. 
I don't know really a lot about other schools, but as far as I know, the Chen can be done in its original form.


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## oaktree (Jan 25, 2013)

Each person in chen adds there own signature to it.
 So chen xiaowang might add an extra little silk reeling that
Others may not. Chen zhenglei has a very distinct flavor of
Chen taiji.  I know chen bing also has certain things he does that
Differs than chen xiaowang. Xue sheng posted a yang comparison
Video of difference in yang style as well as san ti postures
Of the generations and lines. Food for thought.


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## oaktree (Jan 25, 2013)

As to the op question. Good or bad some where things will
Be modified or changed,  humans are thinking animals bad or good.
The best way to look at a modified piece is does it have
A logical reason for it and is that by logic fit better
Then the traditional way


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## clfsean (Jan 25, 2013)

oaktree said:


> As to the op question. Good or bad some where things will
> Be modified or changed,  humans are thinking animals bad or good.
> The best way to look at a modified piece is does it have
> A logical reason for it and is that by logic fit better
> Then the traditional way



If changes are needed to something, changes will occur. Be it based on past experiences & past training, or the harder way where a "fix" was needed to close a gap in technique to prevent something bad from happening... apparently again.

Unfortunately... too often changes are made & touted as "better" or "improved" based on no more than ego & lack of understanding of the core of the method.


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2013)

Everybody goes into this with a different body. Yes the anatomy is fairly similar but it is not the same therefore you will find that things change

In the Taijiquan family styles mentioned Chen, Yang, Wu/Hao, Wu, and Sun all came to Taiji with different backgrounds

The Chen family had a martial art prior to Chen Wangting&#8217;s invention of Taijiquan

Yang Luchan had a martial arts background as well, I belie it was Changquan

Wu style comes from Wu Quanyu who learned from either Yang Luchan or Yang Banhou (depending on who you want to believe) and Wu Quanyu was already a Manchu soldier so he also came in with prior training

Wu/Hao comes from a combination of Chen and Yang so that is again different

Sun comes Sun Lutang who had a background in Xingyiquan, Baguazhang and Wu/Hao Taijiquan

Zhaobao comes from the Chen family via Chen Qingping but Zhobao people will deny that and challenge you to a fight and it is easier to just say your right and walk away...it would be less painful


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## blindsage (Jan 25, 2013)

Every teacher in every generation changes what they teach.  No matter how they protest that they may do it exactly like their teacher, it's not.  No two people have the same body, no two people have the same ideas or talents.  Every teacher modifies, some more than others.

As an example:  Chen Xiaowang and the current generation of Chen style have absolutely changed the system.   It is different from what his grandfather Chen Fake taught.


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## blindsage (Jan 25, 2013)

sicko said:


> Hi,
> I don't agree with you about the changes. At least not from Chen style. You see, there are a lot of videos, where Chen Xiaowang explains Chen style taijiquan. Step by step, movement after movement, change after change. Everything down to the smallest part of your body. And as Xiaowang is the top recognized in Chen family I would say that his is the real style, like his father tought him.
> I have a teacher that was learning after him and when I look at those videos, I see we do exactly the same, with not a minimal variation.
> 
> ...


Just for the sake of furthering the discussion.





Feng Zhiqiang, top student of Chen Fake.





Chen Xiaowang


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 25, 2013)

blindsage said:


> Just for the sake of furthering the discussion.



Yeah, that's what I was thinking and Feng was the fst to pop into my mind.

I was also thinking that before Laojia Yilu and erlu there was only one Chen form which was then split (Changed) into Yilu and erlu

I was then thinking Chan Fake took Laojia Yilu and Erlu and changed them to Xinjia Yilu and Xinjia Erlu

Not to mention that although similar, Chen Xiaowang and Chen Xiaoxing and Chen Zhenglei do not do the form exactly the same and they all pretty much had the same teacher.


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## Flying Crane (Jan 25, 2013)

Changes do happen.  Some people understand the system deeply enough to make meaningful changes.  Other people do not, and their changes can be to the detriment of what they do and anyone to learns from them.

I'd wager that everyone who makes deliberate changes, believes it is for the best.  I'd also wager that in most cases, they are wrong about that.


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## Josealb (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting subject. From a xingyiquan POV, in my opinion there are always two types of changes:

The "this ***** is too hard to do....let me unconsciously simplify it" change.

The "I understand this in an incredibly deep way, in and out, enough to flavor it to my liking. After all, i prefer headbutts, instead of a shoulder strike, which my teacher likes." change.

Sadly, i have seen the both of them. IMO, the quality of the art is in the man, never the style, and since every man is different, there will always be preferences, which is a very good thing ONLY when they are developed on top of the same core principles, or at least that principle is understood perfectly before the change (not fair to judge something before you know exactly what it is). The bad part of this is that its also the perfect excuse for the lazy...."oh, we just look different because we like different stuff." 

I guess we could judge a change by its result, in a teacher. In ourselves its a much harder thing to do...but it sure is an ego boost to say "i found a better way to do this".


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## Kung Fu Wang (Jan 30, 2013)

sicko said:


> the Chen can be done in its original form.



The difference between the Yang Taiji and Chang Taiji is the integration of the leg movement in Chang Taiji. When you apply "pull back", if you add "leg spring", the result will be much better. 

Yang Taiji has no leg skill. Chang Taiji brings the leg skill back. Should Chen Taiji also brings the leg skill back?


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## Xue Sheng (Jan 31, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yang Taiji has no leg skill.



That, right there...is wrong, as is the next bit



Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should Chen Taiji also brings the leg skill back?



Why would you bring them back since they never left...Chen has them too


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## Instructor (Jan 31, 2013)

It occurs to me that every known style of martial art is probably a variation of an earlier style of martial art.  Everything I've ever studied was a derivative of something else.


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## clfsean (Jan 31, 2013)

Instructor said:


> It occurs to me that every known style of martial art is probably a variation of an earlier style of martial art.  Everything I've ever studied was a derivative of something else.



True enough, but how often are "variations" simply there to stroke an ego or shore up a mediocre skill by letting somebody say "I created it" versus a legitimate & well founded/needed(??) variation?


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## Instructor (Jan 31, 2013)

clfsean said:


> True enough, but how often are "variations" simply there to stroke an ego or shore up a mediocre skill by letting somebody say "I created it" versus a legitimate & well founded/needed(??) variation?



Too darn often.


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## Thunderfist (Feb 4, 2013)

From my perspective, a person needs two qualities to make meaningful changes to the art they study: 1 - they must have sufficient knowledge of the system and it's body skills 2 - they must have a combination of insight and good judgement.Provided these criteria are fulfilled, two types of changes are possible:1 - Boiling down the essence of the art. Do new technologies or restrictions provide better, quicker, ways to develop the same skills? (Arguably, Oyama and Kano improved Karate and JiuJitsu by adding sparring and randori to their syllabus, allowing japanese students to develop better body skills to a higher level).2 - Does the changing world highlight a change in what skills are needed to be effective? (How many Martial Artists prior to the UFC had a developed, tested, plan for avoiding / dealing with ground fighting? Probably less than today. How do modern legal matters affect our perspective, or the necessity of, weapons training? Do I need to be able to sword fight? Should I learn to use a gun?)  Even with everything above, the most positive changes from the most insightful master are often a matter of subjective taste. Judo might be better for one on one self defence than old school JiuJitsu, but it's a less well rounded art technique-wise and doesn't have a great deal to say about weapons training.For me, legitimate changes are changes that tailor an art to what you and your students want and need. To do this, as I said, one must have an insight into what is wanted and needed, as well as a thorough mastery of the original art in question.


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## mograph (Feb 4, 2013)

Interesting answer, Thunderfist.

I'd add that sufficient knowledge of the art would allow a practitioner to evaluate its practice appropriately and see beyond the obvious. For example, sword training may not be necessary as an end in itself (in a world of guns), but it can serve to reveal discontinuity in one's form, so even in a modern context, it is still useful.


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## East Winds (Feb 10, 2013)

Once again Flying Crane puts his finger right on the button......._*"I'd wager that everyone who makes deliberate changes, believes it is for  the best.  I'd also wager that in most cases, they are wrong about  that."*_ This is why Taiji is in the bad state it is in today!! Any form that retains its essences will retain its integrity. As soon as you start to change these paramaters, you are lost. As I've quoted on this forum before, Yang Cheng Fu summed it up..._*."One may not make a show of one's cleverness by rashly making additions or deletions. The former worthies developed these methods. If alterations or corrections could be made , the ancestors preceding me would already have put them into effect."  *_Can't argue with that.

Very best wishes


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## mograph (Feb 10, 2013)

I agree with Flying Crane, but I'm not so sure that a lot of changes are for the good of the art: I think they are based on a superficial understanding of the essences, done to hasten the acquisition of students. 

However, I don't assume that "no change" _always_ beats "change", just as I don't assume the opposite. Logically, who can say that if an art hasn't changed in generations, it is because it has reached the pinnacle of its value/precision/whatever? Humans are not perfect, and perhaps something has been overlooked. People are people, and masters are neither gods nor immortals. Perhaps someone with a certain point of view can see something a different way.

Of course, Yang Cheng Fu was right in asserting that additions or deletions should not be made _*rashly*_. However, if one has a clear, respectful understanding of the essences and makes changes that still respect those essences, if those changes could withstand critical examination in terms of martial effectiveness (for example), then wouldn't they be valid?

Sorry guys, but logically, I can't abide the idea that "if changes could be made, they'd have been made by now". Did Yang's ancestors say that? Did the first person to systematize martial arts say that? If not, then why should the changes stop with YCF? 

Or should we define terms: changes to essences are bad, but variations on _expressions_ of those essences could be good if they withstand scrutiny and still respect those essences?


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## Jin Gang (Feb 10, 2013)

mograph said:


> I agree with Flying Crane, but I'm not so sure that a lot of changes are for the good of the art: I think they are based on a superficial understanding of the essences, done to hasten the acquisition of students.
> 
> However, I don't assume that "no change" _always_ beats "change", just as I don't assume the opposite. Logically, who can say that if an art hasn't changed in generations, it is because it has reached the pinnacle of its value/precision/whatever? Humans are not perfect, and perhaps something has been overlooked. People are people, and masters are neither gods nor immortals. Perhaps someone with a certain point of view can see something a different way.
> 
> ...



Right.  The Chinese culture (and the Japanese culture as well), tends to idolize ancestors.  Everyone is going to SAY that their ancestors were geniuses who were perfect, and that they themselves are unworthy of being called their equals, and would never change the traditions.  But things change all the time.  Yang Cheng Fu's taijiquan was only two generations old when he received it, and it had clearly changed already, between his father and his uncle, not to mention the changes his grandfather made to the Chen style he learned, and the changes the Chen family made to the shaolin and other methods they inherited.  Martial arts change, with every person and every generation, it is inevitable, regardless of what propriety towards one's ancestors requires in terms of etiquette.  Sometimes the change happens in a significant or deliberate way, sometimes in a slow drifting way.  There is no judgement on that fact, it is not necessarily good or bad.  We should honor those who came before us by carefully examing and considering everything they have to teach.  All we can do is study, test, and see what works.  Sometimes someone finds something new works better for them than the way of their ancestors.  Sometimes the old way gets changed without being understood, and that is a shame.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2013)

And the ex-Xingyiquan guy say....Of course...a yiquan guy  



mograph said:


> I agree with Flying Crane, but I'm not so sure that a lot of changes are for the good of the art: I think they are based on a superficial understanding of the essences, done to hasten the acquisition of students.
> 
> However, I don't assume that "no change" always beats "change", just as I don't assume the opposite. Logically, who can say that if an art hasn't changed in generations, it is because it has reached the pinnacle of its value/precision/whatever? Humans are not perfect, and perhaps something has been overlooked. People are people, and masters are neither gods nor immortals. Perhaps someone with a certain point of view can see something a different way.



It can sometimes depend on who you talk to but ultimately, with older styles of CMA, the test of time is what matters. Talk to the Dai family and they will likely tell you Xingyiquan is inferior and missing a lot (Xingyiquan comes from Dai family Xinyiquan) but yet it is a successful art and it has been around a while and was even used by the Chinese military. However it is likely that if you talk to a practitioner of traditional Xingyiquan they will tell y ou the military version is inferior. And all may look down on Yiquan



mograph said:


> Of course, Yang Cheng Fu was right in asserting that additions or deletions should not be made rashly. However, if one has a clear, respectful understanding of the essences and makes changes that still respect those essences, if those changes could withstand critical examination in terms of martial effectiveness (for example), then wouldn't they be valid?



The key here is &#8220;made rashly&#8221; Yang Luchan changed Chen Laojia Yilu to come up with his Yang style. His sons Yang Banhou likely made no real changes but Yang Jianhou did make some. The sons of Yang Jianhou, Yang Shouhou most likely practiced a form of Taijiquan closer to that of his uncle Banhou but Chengfu learned what his father taught him and then changed it yet again. But they all were preiviously trained to a rather high level in the style of their fathers. Also the changes in some cases were likely based on Body type, Chengfu was, I believe, rather tall compared to the rest of his family.

But there are hundreds of various styles of taiji out there that are really not taiji at all. They were made by a person with little skill but a lot of ideas. They may be a martial art but they are far from Taijiquan in principle



mograph said:


> Sorry guys, but logically, I can't abide the idea that "if changes could be made, they'd have been made by now". Did Yang's ancestors say that? Did the first person to systematize martial arts say that? If not, then why should the changes stop with YCF?



I do not think Yang Chengfu ever really said that since he was discussing a change at the time of his death. However it was, once again, not being done rashly. That and after Yang style you get Wu, Wu/Hao and Sun. All viable styles of Taijiquan and all following similar principles and all good Taijiquan and I do not remeber reading anything from the Yang family that came out saying these styles were horrible done rashly. But there is the ocassional underhanded comment. Recently heard a Chan family mamber say all styles (5 families) were good but to really understand the martial side you need laojia erlu... Yang Luchan did not learn erlu per the Chen family and neither did the founder of Wu/Hao 



mograph said:


> Or should we define terms: changes to essences are bad, but variations on expressions of those essences could be good if they withstand scrutiny and still respect those essences?



Taijiquan being good or bad or being Taijiquan for that matter appears to be defined by the guidelines set up by the Chen and Yang Families. A doing Shaolinquan slow does not make it Taijiquan kind of thing


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## Flying Crane (Feb 10, 2013)

I'll just go ahead and repost what I said earlier, with emphasis on the part that hasn't yet been pointed to by others:



Flying Crane said:


> Changes do happen.  *Some people understand the system deeply enough to make meaningful changes.*  Other people do not, and their changes can be to the detriment of what they do and anyone to learns from them.
> 
> I'd wager that everyone who makes deliberate changes, believes it is for the best.  I'd also wager that *in most cases*, they are wrong about that.



I think this is in line with the issue of not making changes rashly.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Feb 10, 2013)

Xue Sheng said:


> That, right there...is wrong, as is the next bit ...


Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.

Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it. 

Does Chen Taiji have it? I have not seen it yet.

1. "sweep".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/deashibarai.htm

2. "scoop".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/kouchigari.htm

3. "cut". 

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/osotogari.htm

4. "lift".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/uchimata.htm

5. "hook".

http://cdn2.judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ouchigari.htm


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## mograph (Feb 10, 2013)

I don't think a good taijiquan practitioner would let the opponent get such a good grip on the jacket.
But regarding legs, in taijiquan you kick or stomp, aiming no higher than the knee. That's my understanding.


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 10, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.
> 
> Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it.
> 
> ...



No, I do not think I will, there are leg skills there if you train it properly with a sifu who really knows Yang taijiquan, they are in the form, and you will also find them in Chen, if you do not want to believe they are there then don't. I have no desire to waste my time searching websites looking for youtube videos and trying to convince one who is already convinced they do not exist. I know they are there, used some of them, and that is good enough for me. 

But if it helps you may want to look at some of the applications of White crane spreads its wings and a few of the other postures, particularly the 13 postures, most of which are in the long form and understand just because it looks a certain way in the form does not mean it looks that way in application

Have a nice day


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## mograph (Feb 10, 2013)

Ah. I need to look deeper. Thanks.


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## blindsage (Feb 11, 2013)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Let's just talk about Yang Taiji here since I don't know Chen Taiji.
> 
> Please show me the following 5 leg skills used in Yang Taiji. We can go through the 108 moves long Yang form one move after another move since each move has a unique name for it.
> 
> ...


They are all there in Yang style.  If you don't see them your understanding is lacking not the system.  Good luck with that.


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## blindsage (Feb 11, 2013)

Hey guys, aren't these pretty poses I found on the internet?


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## East Winds (Feb 12, 2013)

_*"One may not make a show of one's cleverness by rashly making  additions or deletions. The former worthies developed these methods. If  alterations or corrections could be made , the ancestors preceding me  would already have put them into effect." *_

I believe that Yang Cheng-fu was talking about the Yangs 10 essences all of which came in one form or another from the Chen family. (You only have to look at the similarities between the first 15 moves of both forms to see this). Changes in form will occur due to body form, shape, ability and fitness, but irrespective of these, everyone can adhere to the essences. Once _*these*_ become changed (Tie-dyed pyjama types and self styled new age masters) that is where the real damage is done to Taiji.  Those who have only studied Taiji for a short time (4 or 5 years) often think they can improve on the system (been there, done that, got the T-shirt), but after a while, a realisation occurs that the old guys really did know what they were talking about!!

Very best wishes


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## Instructor (Feb 12, 2013)

mograph said:


> I don't think a good taijiquan practitioner would let the opponent get such a good grip on the jacket.
> But regarding legs, in taijiquan you kick or stomp, aiming no higher than the knee. That's my understanding.



A good practitioner of ANY art should expect that sometimes things happen in a fight that are completely unexpected.  I once had to fight a person covered in cole slaw, ever try to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw?


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## Xue Sheng (Feb 12, 2013)

Instructor said:


> A I once had to fight a person covered in cole slaw, ever try to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw?



:lfao:  I can honestly say... no, no I have not ever tried to do a wrist lock on somebody covered in cole slaw


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## Instructor (Feb 12, 2013)

If you want to make wrestling a spectator sport again just add cole slaw.


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