# Singapore, anyone?



## Zero (Jul 7, 2015)

So, it's early days but am considering a possible opportunity in Singapore.  Am very happy where I am in London but it is potentially a great opportunity but I have very little knowledge about Singapore (only done quick stopover there) but have been to HK, Taiwan, Thailand many times.

Has anyone lived and worked in Singapore as an "ex-pat"?

...and with kids?

And more importantly, does anyone know how it is like for education for primary school kids? 

My wife and the kids speak Mandarin as well as English (I have basic Mandarin).

If I am serious I will of course fly over and due diligence the place but anyone who has any insights into life there and what it is like with kids and schooling would be much appreciated...

Thanks in advance!


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 7, 2015)

From what I have been told by friends on my wife's, who are from Singapore, the school system there is very tough on kids, even tougher than mainland China where my wife grew up and went to school. As for language, it has two national languages, Mandarin and English so your good there. It is also rather hot, but being on the equator that is to be expected.


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## Tez3 (Jul 7, 2015)

Some advice from the Foreign Office, it has links to more info for business people etc. Singapore travel advice - GOV.UK


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jul 7, 2015)

I have friends living there right now and they absolutely love it!


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

Singapore born and raised... what exactly do you want to know about our primary education system?

And just to correct what Xue Sheng mentioned, our 'national' language is Malay, however, most Singaporeans that are not of Malay descent would not be conversant in it. We have 4 official languages, Malay, Mandarin Chinese, Tamil and English, which is the de-facto language of business and governance. All school children are required to learn English as a first language, and their respective 'mother tongue' (Mandarin, Malay or Tamil) as a second language.

With respect to our school system being very tough, I can't really comment as I have no personal experience outside of it, but I did manage to survive it and made it through to post graduate level. I don't think it is as scary as some make it out to be, you just have to put in the required study hours.


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

I would also like to add.

Expats in general have it very good in Singapore, you can expect to live comfortably, with most, if not all the modern conveniences one would need or want.
There are active expat communities, hangouts and activities for social interaction etc., but it is also not hard to live 'among the locals' if you choose to do so, although you have to keep in mind that we generally keep to ourselves and do not express our friendly disposition too outwardly. Try initiating a conversation with a stranger in the lift or on the street and see what I mean...

Last thing I have to mention, the heat and humidity is probably the worst thing you have to put up with, coupled with tight living spaces and the feeling of being cooped up on a tiny island with not much nature or open vistas...


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

zzj said:


> Singapore born and raised... what exactly do you want to know about our primary education system?
> 
> And just to correct what Xue Sheng mentioned, our 'national' language is Malay, however, most Singaporeans that are not of Malay descent would not be conversant in it. We have 4 official languages, Malay, Mandarin Chinese, Tamil and English, which is the de-facto language of business and governance. All school children are required to learn English as a first language, and their respective 'mother tongue' (Mandarin, Malay or Tamil) as a second language.
> 
> With respect to our school system being very tough, I can't really comment as I have no personal experience outside of it, but I did manage to survive it and made it through to post graduate level. I don't think it is as scary as some make it out to be, you just have to put in the required study hours.



Thank you zzj! 
1. Pressure:
It was initially somewhat along what Xue Sheng mentioned.  I have worked with a Singaporean lady here in London and she said (having done all schooling and university in Singapore) that it is quite a pressure cooker in the school system and that so much focus is placed on schooling that time spent on other aspects such as sports, gymnastics etc are little or non-existent.  She said the pressure and competition to get into the top high schools and the university is very intense so that the focus on children is almost exclusively academic focus, with after school "cramming" (that's additional tutoring, etc) the norm.

Now I would be biased but I would say that my five year old girl is very smart and from an English perspective is where she should be with reading/writing and slightly ahead for maths. I drive her pretty hard on homework and extra stuff but she also has a great life with tennis, gymnastics, swimming etc and we spend a lot of the weekends in the woods, etc.

My concern is that I would be putting her (and in due course her two year old brother) in an environment where it is just academic focus or you don't get ahead in the school system or fail to get into the reputable schools and that this may mean she loses out on the non-academic and sports, and music, side of life as a kid.

2. My second question is, while her Mandarin is good (but not as fluent speaking or writing as English) as her mum is from Taipei, would we be best to put the kids into an international or ex-pat school, or is there the local option and what is the done or recommended thing?  Given you are local this may not be something you have had to consider...

3. Cost: One of the options my wife is looking at includes ex-pat deal with schooling covered at primary level.  Another option I am looking at pays more but no "ex-pat" deal.  Do you or anyone else have an idea what the primary and then secondary school systems cost?  Do you pay to use the local schools?  Are the ex-pat or international schools very expensive?

Thanks so much zzj and everyone else.


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> From what I have been told by friends on my wife's, who are from Singapore, the school system there is very tough on kids, even tougher than mainland China where my wife grew up and went to school. As for language, it has two national languages, Mandarin and English so your good there. It is also rather hot, but being on the equator that is to be expected.


Thanks XS, I will see if zzj has further comment on that but that is what I had been told regarding schooling by a local Singaporean and what I have gathered in general. That is my only real concern to be honest, the kind of life I would be giving the kids.  Have spent Summers in Taipei and can handle the weather (I think...), even if Singapore more humid.


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Some advice from the Foreign Office, it has links to more info for business people etc. Singapore travel advice - GOV.UK


Thanks, and I will need to safeguard against the offence of "outrage of modesty" also.


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

zzj said:


> I would also like to add.
> 
> although you have to keep in mind that we generally keep to ourselves and do not express our friendly disposition too outwardly. Try initiating a conversation with a stranger in the lift or on the street and see what I mean...


No worries, I do love the Brits and having been in London for sometime now I have got used to that kind of thing over here (having grown up and come from a place where it is the norm to make eye contact with people and to say g'day to strangers on the street as you walk by).  Although I do find that once the average Brit realises you are not trying to (i) mug them; (ii) kill them; (iii) bludge money; (iv) sell them heroine or that (v) you are not simply insane or (overly) unbalanced, they can be a very friendly, humorous and good sort of bunch.  I am sure you Singaporeans can't be too different in that respect...


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

Zero said:


> Thank you zzj!
> 1. Pressure:
> It was initially somewhat along what Xue Sheng mentioned.  I have worked with a Singaporean lady here in London and she said (having done all schooling and university in Singapore) that it is quite a pressure cooker in the school system and that so much focus is placed on schooling that time spent on other aspects such as sports, gymnastics etc are little or non-existent.  She said the pressure and competition to get into the top high schools and the university is very intense so that the focus on children is almost exclusively academic focus, with after school "cramming" (that's additional tutoring, etc) the norm.
> 
> ...



1. Pressure
I will not deny that there is more academic emphasis on the whole, however, you have to realise that for a Singaporean, the pressure comes from several sources...

a) The cost of living...in particular housing and car prices. To put it bluntly, you would have to secure a university degree level job to have any real chance of a degree of comfortable living in Singapore. Those with a Polytechnic diploma or Technical Certificates in general will find it a struggle to maintain a decent standard of living. Thi is the reality that all Singaporean students are looking at, from the 1st day of their educational journey. For an expat however, your considerations/options would be different.

b) Parental Pressure. The stereotypical Asian Parent mindset is another big source of the pressure, as parents you believe it is your duty to push your children to the limit of their abilities so that they can lead better material lives in the future, and as children, you believe that it is your duty not to disappoint your parents, and to live up to their expectations. In your case, this may not apply, and personally, I hope not to perpetuate this rigid mindset in my family.

c) Blind belief in hard work / rote learning. I figured out at a relatively early age that studying smart is much more productive than simply studying hard, however, I think not enough parents or even teachers recognise this yet in Singapore. As a result, parents send their children to extra tuition classes to rack up the hours, and teachers tend to pile up the homework on their students. You can definitely help your children do better by helping them learn more effectively rather than succumbing to this unproductive study culture.

What I am trying to say is that, there are many variables within your control that determine if your children come under too much pressure in the education system, and while intrinsic pressure of the educational system is there, and probably more than in Western societies, it is but 1 contributing factor to the level of pressure that a Singaporean would face.

There are also 'co-curricular activities' available in all schools in Singapore, and while most Singaporean students may place too much emphasis on studying, it does not have to be the case. In my case I was in my Primary School's swimming club, art club and Tae Kwon Do club, and still managed to score well in my examinations due to my Parents' guidance. 

2.The level of Mandarin Chinese Proficiency in SIngapore is not very high. Since your Wife was from Taiwan, I would guess that your daughter's Chinese standard would be on par, if not better than the average Singaporean Student of her age. I would not worry so much about her fitting in or catching up in Chinese lessons, the only difficulty may be switching from traditional to simplified Chinese Characters.

3. Schools are heavily subsidized for Singaporeans, however, I am unsure how much it would cost for an expat to send his/her children to a local school. International Schools would be much more expensive, and I am quite certain local schools would be significantly cheaper even for non-Singaporeans. I can help to check with my sis in law who is a vice principal of a Primary School if you want.


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

Zero said:


> No worries, I do love the Brits and having been in London for sometime now I have got used to that kind of thing over here (having grown up and come from a place where it is the norm to make eye contact with people and to say g'day to strangers on the street as you walk by).  Although I do find that once the average Brit realises you are not trying to (i) mug them; (ii) kill them; (iii) bludge money; (iv) sell them heroine or that (v) you are not simply insane or (overly) unbalanced, they can be a very friendly, humorous and good sort of bunch.  I am sure you Singaporeans can't be too different in that respect...



We're just more reserved. My wife and I were in Yorkshire, Whitby last month. While waiting outside a Pizza Takeaway, a friendly Brit gentleman must have thought my wife looked too miserable and hungry to wait for her food and offered her some chips. The look of surprise with a slight tinge of perplexed horror on her face must have been hilarious to the kind man, and simply because a stranger suddenly talked to her and offered her food for no apparent reason.


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

I did a check on the fees.

For local government run Primary schools, us Singaporeans pay $13 a month, non-Singaporeans (from non ASEAN countries) pay $500 a month.

International School Fees vary from school to school, but work out to be between $2000 - $3000 per month.

Note: All fees in Singapore dollars.


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

zzj said:


> I did a check on the fees.
> 
> For local government run Primary schools, us Singaporeans pay $13 a month, non-Singaporeans (from non ASEAN countries) pay $500 a month.
> 
> ...


Thank you on those costs/fee details.


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## Zero (Jul 8, 2015)

zzj said:


> 1. Pressure
> I will not deny that there is more academic emphasis on the whole, however, you have to realise that for a Singaporean, the pressure comes from several sources...
> 
> a) The cost of living...in particular housing and car prices. To put it bluntly, you would have to secure a university degree level job to have any real chance of a degree of comfortable living in Singapore. Those with a Polytechnic diploma or Technical Certificates in general will find it a struggle to maintain a decent standard of living. Thi is the reality that all Singaporean students are looking at, from the 1st day of their educational journey. For an expat however, your considerations/options would be different.
> ...


Thank you for all of that zzj, very useful insights.  I will ask around some more of others but that is very useful.
I know my wife will have an issue with the kids learning the simplified Chinese characters (as you clearly know, in Taiwan it is all traditional, pre-simplification)...


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 8, 2015)

Zero said:


> Thanks XS, I will see if zzj has further comment on that but that is what I had been told regarding schooling by a local Singaporean and what I have gathered in general. That is my only real concern to be honest, the kind of life I would be giving the kids.  Have spent Summers in Taipei and can handle the weather (I think...), even if Singapore more humid.



zzj lived there so obviously he knows more than I do since I am hearing this from people, who had kids, who lived there who now live in the US. But one of those families were native Chinese (Beijing) and they were the ones saying it was much tougher that Beijing schools, which to be honest are much tougher than US schools, not sure what the system is like where you are.

However I am wondering if there is another option there. like you have in Beijing; international schools. Meaning schools for foreigners that are not the same nor are they as stringent, but still real live schools.

And I found this

List of international schools in Singapore


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## Tez3 (Jul 8, 2015)

Zero said:


> No worries, I do love the Brits and having been in London for sometime now I have got used to that kind of thing over here (having grown up and come from a place where it is the norm to make eye contact with people and to say g'day to strangers on the street as you walk by).  Although I do find that once the average Brit realises you are not trying to (i) mug them; (ii) kill them; (iii) bludge money; (iv) sell them heroine or that (v) you are not simply insane or (overly) unbalanced, they can be a very friendly, humorous and good sort of bunch.  I am sure you Singaporeans can't be too different in that respect...




ah but that's London lol. The rest of the UK is very different, here in Yorkshire we still can leave our doors unlocked and you have to set out an hour early to get anywhere because everyone  talks to you. London is London what can I say,  a very different place for the rest of the UK.


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> zzj lived there so obviously he knows more than I do since I am hearing this from people, who had kids, who lived there who now live in the US. But one of those families were native Chinese (Beijing) and they were the ones saying it was much tougher that Beijing schools, which to be honest are much tougher than US schools, not sure what the system is like where you are.
> 
> However I am wondering if there is another option there. like you have in Beijing; international schools. Meaning schools for foreigners that are not the same nor are they as stringent, but still real live schools.
> 
> ...



It's a matter of cost, international schools charge several times the fees of local government schools, however, if OP's expat package includes for his children's education at international schools, then I'd say it's definitely worth serious consideration.

On a side note, I don't think the Singapore education system is more pressurizing than the PRC system. Maybe that Chinese family's kids found it particularly difficult because the medium of instruction was in English?


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 8, 2015)

zzj said:


> It's a matter of cost, international schools charge several times the fees of local government schools, however, if OP's expat package includes for his children's education at international schools, then I'd say it's definitely worth serious consideration.
> 
> On a side note, I don't think the Singapore education system is more pressurizing than the PRC system. Maybe that Chinese family's kids found it particularly difficult because the medium of instruction was in English?



It was based in Mathematics, most Chinese evaluations of school systems are based on Mathematics


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## zzj (Jul 8, 2015)

Xue Sheng said:


> It was based in Mathematics, most Chinese evaluations of school systems are based on Mathematics



Can't comment on that. I was and still am, hopeless at maths.


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## Zero (Jul 9, 2015)

zzj said:


> It's a matter of cost, international schools charge several times the fees of local government schools, however, if OP's expat package includes for his children's education at international schools, then I'd say it's definitely worth serious consideration.
> 
> On a side note, I don't think the Singapore education system is more pressurizing than the PRC system. Maybe that Chinese family's kids found it particularly difficult because the medium of instruction was in English?



Am not sure how long we would be there but taking things all the way, would you know if, for example, kids did well at international school, and not local school system, they could still equally access top Singapore universities?  Or would they be disadvantaged obtaining admission to uni with respect to kids in local school system?


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## zzj (Jul 9, 2015)

Zero said:


> Am not sure how long we would be there but taking things all the way, would you know if, for example, kids did well at international school, and not local school system, they could still equally access top Singapore universities?  Or would they be disadvantaged obtaining admission to uni with respect to kids in local school system?



International Schools in Singapore offer curriculum/qualifications such as GCSE or SATs etc, and those are accepted for entry into local Universities on equal stabnding, however, the factor that may affect your children's chances for admission to local universities would be the quota for non-Singaporean students. That said, our universities are in general very open to international students, and have set aside a large proportion of the annual intake for non-Singaporeans.


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## Marian Ambers (Oct 5, 2015)

I'll be visiting Singapore this Friday.  My brother-in-law married a Singaporean.  They have two kids now.  Singapore is really tough on kids.  They study even on weekends.... swimming, piano, guitar, Chinese language, etc.  Kids don't get to have a real rest day.


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