# The Twelve (Sometimes Ten) Sounds of the Southern Shaolin Iron Wire



## Oily Dragon (Apr 6, 2022)

I've been putting this off too long, but rather than write a whole bunch, I decided to seek out a decent intro, written by someone else.

Here's an icebreaker question: Is it 10 or 12 sounds?  I have made some pretty spooky sounds performing this fist set, sometimes I forget which sound goes with what function, sometimes it just works.









						The 10 Sounds of "Iron Thread Set" (Tit Sin Kyun) - Practical Hung Kyun
					

Tit Sin Kyun is the highest set in Hung Ga Kyun. Simply said, it’s a Five Elements “Internal Training” set that uses sounds that refer to emotions. There is much more to Tit Sin Kyun, such as the “Twelve Bridge Arms” (Sap Yi Ji Kiu Sau) and its use in ground grappling/antigrappling, but we will […]



					practicalhungkyun.com
				




Best Deep Fake Ever.


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## Oily Dragon (May 8, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Here's an icebreaker question: Is it 10 or 12 sounds?



Nobody tried answering, so...

It's both!

The Iron Wire is, basically, a one-man play dancing between Chan, 5 animal styles, 5 element styles, 12 Shaolin bridges, Neigong, Wing Chun, TCC, and a lot of older material, a lot of which is clearly Indian.  "Yogic" is my word for it.


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've been putting this off too long, but rather than write a whole bunch, I decided to seek out a decent intro, written by someone else.
> 
> Here's an icebreaker question: Is it 10 or 12 sounds?  I have made some pretty spooky sounds performing this fist set, sometimes I forget which sound goes with what function, sometimes it just works.
> 
> ...



Interesting form, definitely saw the Wing Chun influence

Never heard of Shaolin Iron Wire, but it looks very Shaolin. The closet I got would be a  Shaolin Luohan 13 Forms qigong I use to do, and that is not all that close


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## Oily Dragon (May 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Interesting form, definitely saw the Wing Chun influence
> 
> Never heard of Shaolin Iron Wire, but it looks very Shaolin. The closet I got would be a  Shaolin Luohan 13 Forms qigong I use to do, and that is not all that close


You've seen it before, it's baked into a lot of modern kung fu.  This form is much older than Wing Chun's, but it also has material from Lion's Roar, Tiger Crane, Southern Dragon.  The person who is best known for practicing it died in 1887, but the form lived on mainly in the two main Hung Ga lineages (in mildly different variations), with some other weird tangents out there (like alternative timeline Lokis).

It's the fourth and "final" Hung Ga Kuen form, basically the Internal form you get to after the first three External forms (Taming the Tiger in I Pattern, Tiger Crane Paired Fist, and the 5 Animal/5 Element/10 Pattern Fist).

This is the Yau Kiu of Tid Sin Kuen, 2nd, Soft Bridge, in Sei Ping Dai Ma Bo.

The sound is "Mmmmmm".


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## Oily Dragon (May 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> The closet I got would be a  Shaolin Luohan 13 Forms qigong I use to do, and that is not all that close


The various Shaolin Neigong out there is generally more similar to early Tai Chi practice (since Tai Chi flips the whole external-internal chain to internal-external).

The "Arhat" forms like Luohan come in different flavors, for instance the 13 you learned might be some part of the 18 Luohan, which can be done separately or tied together in a slow moving form like this.






Included in these 18 here are half the very common 8 Brocades, (none of which are very strenuous, but also some of the Shaolin Yi Jin Jing, which gets a bit stretchier and harder to do (lower stances).  Still, these don't represent the full set of the Muscle Changing Classic below (which includes things like tiger lunges and ox pulls, which are tough on the body).


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## Xue Sheng (May 11, 2022)

This is part of the form I learned and the guy I learned it from


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The various Shaolin Neigong out there is generally more similar to early Tai Chi practice (since Tai Chi flips the whole external-internal chain to internal-external).
> 
> The "Arhat" forms like Luohan come in different flavors, for instance the 13 you learned might be some part of the 18 Luohan, which can be done separately or tied together in a slow moving form like this.
> 
> ...


Muscle changing and marrow washing are both incorporated into our workout training. A large part of our warmup is muscle changing classic.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 11, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> I've been putting this off too long, but rather than write a whole bunch, I decided to seek out a decent intro, written by someone else.
> 
> Here's an icebreaker question: Is it 10 or 12 sounds?  I have made some pretty spooky sounds performing this fist set, sometimes I forget which sound goes with what function, sometimes it just works.
> 
> ...


Been waiting on this like Xmas. Thank you. Next piece please.


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## ChenAn (May 11, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> This is part of the form I learned and the guy I learned it from





Xue Sheng said:


> This is part of the form I learned and the guy I learned it from


Oh dear leader Jesse! Lol Number one BS guy! Lol


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## Xue Sheng (May 12, 2022)

Nevermind


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Muscle changing and marrow washing are both incorporated into our workout training. A large part of our warmup is muscle changing classic.



There is a lot of overlap between different legit Qigong sets and Shaolin Iron Body training.  The 7 Golden Gates, 8 Brocades, the Tai chi 13 postures, the Zhan Zhuang and the Yijin have had a long time to grow and interact.  

And these sets we train today, even Iron Wire, are compilations of really old, mostly lost family forms like "Five Phoenix Combined Shouting Tortoise Resting Method", which today can only be found in older Chinese manuals that have never been translated into English.  I'd buy them to check them out, but I don't want to memorize a new credit card number...


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is a lot of overlap between different legit Qigong sets and Shaolin Iron Body training.  The 7 Golden Gates, 8 Brocades, the Tai chi 13 postures, the Zhan Zhuang and the Yijin have had a long time to grow and interact.
> 
> And these sets we train today, even Iron Wire, are compilations of really old, mostly lost family forms like "Five Phoenix Combined Shouting Tortoise Resting Method", which today can only be found in older Chinese manuals that have never been translated into English.  I'd buy them to check them out, but I don't want to memorize a new credit card number...


Your depth of historical knowledge is amazing. By chance could you happen to know who taught Tong Long Pai in Canton in the 1930s? The answer would be valuable to me. Also, any connections to the Mok Gar around that time and place. I know that Lam Sai Wing‘s widow was named Mok Kwai Lan.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> There is a lot of overlap between different legit Qigong sets and Shaolin Iron Body training.  The 7 Golden Gates, 8 Brocades, the Tai chi 13 postures, the Zhan Zhuang and the Yijin have had a long time to grow and interact.
> 
> And these sets we train today, even Iron Wire, are compilations of really old, mostly lost family forms like "Five Phoenix Combined Shouting Tortoise Resting Method", which today can only be found in older Chinese manuals that have never been translated into English.  I'd buy them to check them out, but I don't want to memorize a new credit card number...


Thank you! That is fascinating. I appreciate these kind of replies so much, they are the main reason I come here.


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Your depth of historical knowledge is amazing. By chance could you happen to know who taught Tong Long Pai in Canton in the 1930s? The answer would be valuable to me. Also, any connections to the Mok Gar around that time and place. I know that Lam Sai Wing‘s widow was named Mok Kwai Lan.


Mok Gwai Lan was Wong Fei Hung's widow, not Lam Sai Wing's.  But that's where Mok Ga influenced modern Hung Ga Kuen.  Off the top of my head, Mok Ga added a couple weapons and helped Fei Hung refine his knowledge of Crane styles, etc as he developed his classwork.

Thong Loong Pai around 1930 would have been most associated with Chen Kiu and his disciple Hsung Khan Seong (pic below), but not in Canton.  They ran a school in Calcutta, India's Chinatown for a few decades before shutting down in 2010, but it's hard to know if kung fu training was still done there by then.  









						Lone Chinese school shuts down
					

Read more below




					www.telegraphindia.com
				




I'll dig further and see where I can find southern masters of that particular branch in southern China 1930s, but I think it would have been hard since the founder and chief students were in a different country at that time.


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)




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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Mok Gwai Lan was Wong Fei Hung's widow, not Lam Sai Wing's.  But that's where Mok Ga influenced modern Hung Ga Kuen.  Off the top of my head, Mok Ga added a couple weapons and helped Fei Hung refine his knowledge of Crane styles, etc as he developed his classwork.
> 
> Thong Loong Pai around 1930 would have been most associated with Chen Kiu and his disciple Hsung Khan Seong (pic below), but not in Canton.  They ran a school in Calcutta, India's Chinatown for a few decades before shutting down in 2010, but it's hard to know if kung fu training was still done there by then.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much. I apologize for my error, it was Wong feI hung‘s widow I meant to reference. We have Mok Gar Kuen in our forms, it was one of the arts Sifu Woo studied in Canton in the 1930’s along with Hung Gar and others. Sam Bo Jin ( spelling?) is one of the southern mantis forms we have in our system, are you familiar with any of these? Chan Kuen? Any help or info on these would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Thank you so much. I apologize for my error, it was Wong feI hung‘s widow I meant to reference. We have Mok Gar Kuen in our forms, it was one of the arts Sifu Woo studied in Canton in the 1930’s along with Hung Gar and others. Sam Bo Jin ( spelling?) is one of the southern mantis forms we have in our system, are you familiar with any of these? Chan Kuen? Any help or info on these would be greatly appreciated. Thank you so much!


Yeah, and we can keep it tied to the Iron Wire too.

This is Mok Ga technique, Mo Ying Gerk.  It became one of the most famous, if not the most famous, of all CMA kicks because of Wong Fei Hung.

Plum Flower, Wing Chun kick, yadda yadda.  In the good old days you didn't even have a stick man dummy, you just had a stick, and only if you were that lucky.





Not unlike Robert Chiu's Wing Chun version





Another great book.  It was even referenced by Judkins.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Yep we have that and a couple other Similar type kicks too.


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## Oily Dragon (May 12, 2022)

It's worth noting there are no kicks at all in the Iron Wire, in fact the most traditional methods neither foot ever leaves the ground, it's all shuffle steps, and there's a very specific reason for this constant rooting.  It ties to the sounds because a lot of them are natural sounds made when doing things like tensing the core or forcing breaths, sinking weight, but in the system they are exaggerated.

How exaggerated depends on who and how the form is displayed.  Some dudes like Chiu Chi Ling are famous for being a little goofy loud when doing certain Iron Wire sounds like Fu How Loong Yam (Tiger Roars, Dragon Howls).  He's almost laughing.

Gordon Liu was completely over the top in 36th Chamber of Shaolin, but that's understandable, it was a kung fu movie intro montage.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 12, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's worth noting there are no kicks at all in the Iron Wire, in fact the most traditional methods neither foot ever leaves the ground, it's all shuffle steps, and there's a very specific reason for this constant rooting.  It ties to the sounds because a lot of them are natural sounds made when doing things like tensing the core or forcing breaths, sinking weight, but in the system they are exaggerated.
> 
> How exaggerated depends on who and how the form is displayed.  Some dudes like Chiu Chi Ling are famous for being a little goofy loud when doing certain Iron Wire sounds like Fu How Loong Yam (Tiger Roars, Dragon Howls).  He's almost laughing.
> 
> Gordon Liu was completely over the top in 36th Chamber of Shaolin, but that's understandable, it was a kung fu movie intro montage.


I have seen it done by a long time student of Sifu Woo around 2003. It was late in the evening after more than 6 hours of training. I didn’t absorb as much as I would have hoped.


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## Oily Dragon (May 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I have seen it done by a long time student of Sifu Woo around 2003. It was late in the evening after more than 6 hours of training. I didn’t absorb as much as I would have hoped.


Some kung fu schools out there have mutated the "fist" set quite a bit.  I don't even want to post those videos here, lest they be promoted in the AI.  Best to stick to the path.  If it has 12 bridges, and the right animal/element energies, it's probably legit.

My Friday Iron Wire anecdote is that I noticed a big difference in the sounds when a training ring is added.  I'm at 5 rings per arm (all I can seem to afford on brass rings, they are not cheap).  I sometimes do the form early in the day without rings, later on when I'm feeling pressured or whatever, 10 rings.

AT 10 rings, it's almost as if breathing is _more _regulated than with none.  That's about 10-12 lbs per arm.  And I do this form really, really slow, otherwise it's tough to do the sounds properly or monitor your body.  It's easy to hurt yourself.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> Some kung fu schools out there have mutated the "fist" set quite a bit.  I don't even want to post those videos here, lest they be promoted in the AI.  Best to stick to the path.  If it has 12 bridges, and the right animal/element energies, it's probably legit.
> 
> My Friday Iron Wire anecdote is that I noticed a big difference in the sounds when a training ring is added.  I'm at 5 rings per arm (all I can seem to afford on brass rings, they are not cheap).  I sometimes do the form early in the day without rings, later on when I'm feeling pressured or whatever, 10 rings.
> 
> AT 10 rings, it's almost as if breathing is _more _regulated than with none.  That's about 10-12 lbs per arm.  And I do this form really, really slow, otherwise it's tough to do the sounds properly or monitor your body.  It's easy to hurt yourself.


I too wear 5 rings on each. I don’t love the sound or the hair being ripped off my arms but oh well. I shoot flat punches with them on. it definitely changes everything and I tend to be a little more rooted when using them. I feel like maybe I’m just paying a little more attention to my form when I use the rings.


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## Oily Dragon (May 13, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> I too wear 5 rings on each. I don’t love the sound or the hair being ripped off my arms but oh well. I shoot flat punches with them on. it definitely changes everything and I tend to be a little more rooted when using them. I feel like maybe I’m just paying a little more attention to my form when I use the rings.


The greatest Iron Wire skill is to make as little noise with the rings as possible.

It's so Buddhist.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 13, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The greatest Iron Wire skill is to make as little noise with the rings as possible.
> 
> It's so Buddhist.


Bah, I’m a Taoist. I do try not to disturb them, it isn’t easy.


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## Oily Dragon (May 14, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Bah, I’m a Taoist. I do try not to disturb them, it isn’t easy.


The sound of the ring is like a loud gong.

Hehe, gong.

The sound of Gong Kiu, the Hard Bridge.


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 15, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> The sound of the ring is like a loud gong.
> 
> Hehe, gong.
> 
> The sound of Gong Kiu, the Hard Bridge.


Excellent!


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## ChenAn (May 25, 2022)

Xue Sheng said:


> Nevermind


You know this guy too well and too personally. I know his kids and ex ex wife, and their kids (and his secrete lover). Lol  He usually appears very friendly, humble and thrustful, but once venture outside his his worshiper circle, thing get pretty ugly. His is businessman and that only skill I can give him.

By the way I got his instructor certificate and CZL lineage. I even taught for him. First two things are most useless. Lol

But I glad we rift apart (curtesy Jesse) I even inherited some his students, and found out he even more BS man I thought. Lol 

Just remember one thing about Jesse, he only nice to you when you $$$, you kiss his *** and when your skills are mediocre.  As soon as you represent threat to his highness you will be booted  

P. S. Also I noticed he mentioned Chen Yu in his credential now ! Lol I’m the one who brought CY to his attention and asked him to invite him over US. He talked to CY on the phone in front of me . That as much skills he got from him is phone conversation lol


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## Xue Sheng (May 25, 2022)

ChenAn said:


> You know this guy too well and too personally. I know his kids and ex ex wife, and their kids (and his secrete lover). Lol  He usually appears very friendly, humble and thrustful, but once venture outside his his worshiper circle, thing get pretty ugly. His is businessman and that only skill I can give him.
> 
> By the way I got his instructor certificate and CZL lineage. I even taught for him. First two things are most useless. Lol
> 
> ...



Nah, just did not want to get into it on MT that day, or any day these days. I do better stepping away and forgetting about things. Thanks for the info. I do not feel his Sun style, that he calls traditional, is traditional, and he likes to add kicks in forms that are not originally there for purposes of athleticism, and he is big on distance learning which I am not. I also know one of his "Distance learning teacher" teaching in my are and I am not impressed. I did enjoy the 2 seminars I went to of his, they were entertaining, and he was a nice guy to talk to, but I would not substitute him for my Yang Shifu. He also was not a fan of Xingyiquan and that  right there is a MAJOR detractor for me


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## Wing Woo Gar (May 25, 2022)

Oily Dragon said:


> It's worth noting there are no kicks at all in the Iron Wire, in fact the most traditional methods neither foot ever leaves the ground, it's all shuffle steps, and there's a very specific reason for this constant rooting.  It ties to the sounds because a lot of them are natural sounds made when doing things like tensing the core or forcing breaths, sinking weight, but in the system they are exaggerated.
> 
> How exaggerated depends on who and how the form is displayed.  Some dudes like Chiu Chi Ling are famous for being a little goofy loud when doing certain Iron Wire sounds like Fu How Loong Yam (Tiger Roars, Dragon Howls).  He's almost laughing.
> 
> Gordon Liu was completely over the top in 36th Chamber of Shaolin, but that's understandable, it was a kung fu movie intro montage.


Maybe that is some connection to the emphasis Sifu Woo placed on rooting, the breath riding the motion, and so on. We have digitizing the original interview tapes from Nei Jia Quan.  Perhaps, he may have mentioned significant names. I will get back to you on this. In the mean time please continue with the iron thread. Thanks again.


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## Oily Dragon (May 26, 2022)

ChenAn said:


> ex ex wife


That sounds like the worst kind of wife.


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## Oily Dragon (May 26, 2022)

Wing Woo Gar said:


> Maybe that is some connection to the emphasis Sifu Woo placed on rooting, the breath riding the motion, and so on. We have digitizing the original interview tapes from Nei Jia Quan.  Perhaps, he may have mentioned significant names. I will get back to you on this. In the mean time please continue with the iron thread. Thanks again.



The Iron Wire is an internal form, especially when compared to other Hung Ga Kuen fist sets.

I've got through enough of it to recognize old stills from the past that showcase the whole idea of neigong, even at range.  Here's one.  Basically Crane+Wood Fist Boxing.


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