# People that are skinny vs someone bigger, more likely to break bones or feel pain?



## moonhill99 (Aug 21, 2015)

Do skinny person getting punched or kicked feel pain more than some one bigger? A skinny girl vs bigger guy!!! 

Being bigger more body fat help? A skinny person getting punched , kicked or thrown to the ground hard, feel more pain and easier to break bones than bigger person? 

A person that is bigger or really big like ( may be 200 pounds ) or better yet 250 pounds to 300 pounds less likely to break bones and feel pain than a skinny person. 

How much does body fat help? Or is it muscles like weight lifting that help not body fat. 

So only bodybuilders it is harder to break bones than a skinny person?


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 22, 2015)

What do you really want to know?  I see a lot of questions about weight as if you are trying to find answer to a question you aren't asking.


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## drop bear (Aug 23, 2015)

Weight either way helps sort of because you get to throw around more mass.

But there is a complicated grey area as well. In determining who has the best chance of winning a fight.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 26, 2015)

What I mean is people that are skinny feel pain more and easier to break bones than say a person that has more fat.

Or is it muscle not fat that is key factor here. 

A person that is skinny getting punched , kicked or thrown to the ground easier to break bones than say a person that has more fat.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 26, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> What do you really want to know?  I see a lot of questions about weight as if you are trying to find answer to a question you aren't asking.



A really skinny person like...
All sizes | IMG_5927 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
All sizes | one armed bandit | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
All sizes | ryan | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
All sizes | Cleaning That Filter | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
All sizes | 34426_1517918759211_1571773101_2024403_1475196_n | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Getting punched, kicked or thrown to the ground hard. Do they feel more pain and easier to break bones.

Or is having more fat and eating more will do nothing it is bodybuilding getting muscle that will help?


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## Argus (Aug 26, 2015)

I don't think you should really worry about weight that much. What we deem "really skinny" in America is not abnormal in many other countries, and in the end, it's not really that important to your practice of martial arts unless you're interested in competition and you're concerned with weight classes.

If you want to put on more weight, I'd look at working out and gaining muscle mass as opposed to just putting on more fat. But, it really depends what your goal is. Are you trying to compete in combat sports? Or are you just interested in looking after yourself? If the latter, I wouldn't worry too much.

As a pretty skinny person myself, I've found that being thin has some advantages as well as disadvantages. For example, my bony fore-arms aren't bad weapons, and I tend to be much more flexible when it comes to joint locking arts. Now, would someone swinging a stick at my forearm break bones more easily than someone with more muscle and fat guarding their bones? Maybe. But, maybe not. If the bigger guy blocks the weapon more bluntly, while I meet it at an acute angle and try to dissipate / deflect the force, I'll be the less likely of the two to come away with a serious injury.

How about other scenarios?

If I'm stranded without food, I'll probably only take a number of weeks to starve to death. Many larger individuals might last 2, 3, or even 6 months without food. Someone who's obese can last a year or more.
But, the one who will really make it the longest is the one who actually knows how to find food.

Now, turn it around. If I need to run from imminent danger, my thin, lean build will probably put me at an advantage over that same crowd.
But, how about the practiced runner? He'll have the best advantage, even compared to someone of similar physical shape.

Just focus on your training, and use your natural attributes to your advantage. Anyone who does any physical activity has to learn to best adapt it to their own physical build and capabilities.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 26, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> A really skinny person like...
> All sizes | IMG_5927 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> All sizes | one armed bandit | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> All sizes | ryan | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
> ...



Here's the thing about feeling pain. The amount of pain that a person feels is directly tied to the quality of their body conditioning, the force of the punch, kick, or throw and the position and location of the impact on the body.

Building up muscle through body building makes your punches less powerful.  While having more muscles does offer more protection, it's not one of those things where if you have muscles means that the pain is less or that bones are more difficult to break.  If I punch or kick a body builder in this face then it's still going to hurt.  The only thing that I know that I can't do is pick up a body builder and throw him to the ground.  But what I can do is sweep his legs from under him sending him in the air and depending on how he hits the ground it's possible that he will break a bone because of his weight. If I did the same thing to a skinny guy, the skinny guy may not break a bone.  Because he doesn't have the same amount of weight hitting the ground.

If I wanted my body to take more punishment (which I never focus on) then I would be more concerned with body conditioning.  My mindset is this.  I condition my body so that my body hurts my attacker.


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## Zero (Aug 27, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Building up muscle through body building makes your punches less powerful.  .


Yeah, that's a myth my friend, pure and simple, and funnily enough one you hear all the time in certain spheres of the MA world. 

If you mean this in the narrow sense, in that it is just body building you are talking about then you can be right, as body building is more focused on volume and appearance of conditioning, rather than pure power output or strength as the key focus.  To that degree I would agree with you...but if it is a body builder that knows good boxing technique, then look out, there will be a lot of power behind those punches (until they gas out). I've seen a body builder mate of mine cave a heavy bag in (like George Foreman could).

Otherwise, it's a myth that building muscle reduces power or takes away from technique execution, etc.  Mike Tyson, reduced power?...??  Evander Holyfield...?  George Foreman...uhmmm! (there are of course mixed views as to how much he lifted when young but it is well known for his comeback that he did a massive amount of weight and strongman training).

Now there can be a threshold where building muscle gets in the way of speed - and that is why even powerful fighters like Tyson did not have the overly heavy musculature of body builders or even power lifters.  On that side of things I way back in the day Foreman's coach, Gil Clancy, told him to lay off the weights as it would interfere with his speed.  But look at the speed of Tyson in his prime and the musculature of his shoulders, arms and chest.

Plenty of K1 fighters do specific weight training for power and strength.  Plenty UFC and MMA guys also devote time specifically to skills, fitness, strength and power (which includes weight training programmes, for building muscle in the correct fashion).

It's about strength and power increase - and not the volumisation (and definition) of body building, two different goals (although each spill over into the other to varying degrees as by-products).


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2015)

People have different pain thresholds that have nothing to do with their build. I've seen big guys cry 'ouch' at a paper cut and seen smaller guys grin at being punched hard enough to make them move across the room.
You can build up a tolerance to pain if you want to, it's painful though 
I have a high tolerance for pain, I'm not that big and certainly don't have big muscles. You can't really pin down what makes one person not feel as much pain as another. When I was having my first baby a woman down the corridor was screaming her head of and she had only just gone into labour, I didn't feel that bad and I was nearly done. All our pain thresholds are different.


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## lklawson (Aug 27, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Do skinny person getting punched or kicked feel pain more than some one bigger? A skinny girl vs bigger guy!!!
> 
> Being bigger more body fat help? A skinny person getting punched , kicked or thrown to the ground hard, feel more pain and easier to break bones than bigger person?
> 
> ...


No.  How much pain tolerance a person exhibits doesn't appear to be related to their physical size.

However, there ARE factors which, statistically speaking, seem to affect pain tolerance.

Most studies show that men, generally speaking, have a higher pain tolerance than women; except during child birth when the female body is flooded with a cocktail of body chemicals which endow them with pain tolerance which would make most men jealous.

Some recent studies indicate that Redheads have lower pain thresholds (or at least feel pain "differently") than other hair colors.  Why?  No one knows.

Some studies indicate that swearing and cursing actually increases pain tolerance across the board, regardless of gender or hair color.

And, of course, these are all just statistical averages with outliers on either side of the Bell.  I've not seen any studies which link relative body mass or fat percentages (unrelated to gender) to a person's pain thresholds.

What's this all mean?  Pain tolerance and pain thresholds are difficult to predict and are often very specific to individuals.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Aug 27, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Some recent studies indicate that Redheads have lower pain thresholds than other hair colors.



My mother worked as a blood transfusion service nurse, collecting blood from blood donors, she told me that red heads were more prone to fainting than other people. Whenever they had a red headed donor come in they stayed with them. She said they fainted 8 times out of ten.  (Also students would eat all the biscuits lol.)


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 27, 2015)

Zero said:


> If you mean this in the narrow sense, in that it is just body building you are talking about then you can be right, as body building is more focused on volume and appearance of conditioning, rather than pure power output or strength as the key focus.


  This is what I'm referring to. Bodybuilding has nothing to do with punch power.  So if a person is just lifting weights to get big then they aren't doing the training that makes stronger punches or kicks.  A person that does bodybuilding and boxing would fall in the same category.  The bodybuilding isn't the thing that is making his punches stronger it's the boxing technique that is helping the punching power.



Zero said:


> Plenty of K1 fighters do specific weight training for power and strength


  To me weight training is different than bodybuilding.  To me Weight training is the activity of lifting weights to specifically help in a specific activity or motion.  Chinese Martial artists have always done weight training, but they lifted weights for the purpose of being stronger and faster in their martial art.  Bodybuilders just build muscles for the sake of being huge with muscles.  Some body builders incorporate functional weight training as a way to balance out their primary focus which is to get big.

This is why I stated that building up muscles through bodybuilding and not "Building up muscles through weight training."
 I don't disagree with your comments, just clarifying mine.


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## Zero (Aug 28, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> This is what I'm referring to. Bodybuilding has nothing to do with punch power.  So if a person is just lifting weights to get big then they aren't doing the training that makes stronger punches or kicks.  A person that does bodybuilding and boxing would fall in the same category.  The bodybuilding isn't the thing that is making his punches stronger it's the boxing technique that is helping the punching power.
> 
> To me weight training is different than bodybuilding.  To me Weight training is the activity of lifting weights to specifically help in a specific activity or motion.  Chinese Martial artists have always done weight training, but they lifted weights for the purpose of being stronger and faster in their martial art.  Bodybuilders just build muscles for the sake of being huge with muscles.  Some body builders incorporate functional weight training as a way to balance out their primary focus which is to get big.
> 
> ...



Thanks for clarifications!  Always good to know if someone has a different view.  Looks like we are on the same page.

All I would say is, and this is not in argument to your comments, is that a large bloke by dint of sheer size can sure deliver a hell of a wallop if he connects and gets his mass behind his strike...this is of course different to the fundamentals of "power", being force x velocity and as you say an equation of strength and speed.


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## Tez3 (Aug 28, 2015)

There's also the issue with adrenaline and the taking of alcohol and/or drugs that affect pain threshold. However someone with a more scientific mind than mine will have to explain the technicalities!  I know though that adrenaline is very good at masking pain from experience.


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## crazydiamond (Aug 29, 2015)

I am not sure what is being asked. Relatively speaking to equally trained Martial artists - the much bigger more muscular person paired against a lighter/smaller opponent is going get hurt less and able to inflict more pain on the smaller opponent.  This goes to breaking bones as well.

However, drop them both from three story building and I am not sure a muscular big guy or normal trim guy are gong to experience much different bone breakage or pain.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2015)

Zero said:


> All I would say is, and this is not in argument to your comments, is that a large bloke by dint of sheer size can sure deliver a hell of a wallop if he connects and gets his mass behind his strike...this is of course different to the fundamentals of "power", being force x velocity and as you say an equation of strength and speed.


  I agree with that because that's the same formula I use for when a person hits the ground. lol.  A cat with it's legs tide dropped from 10 feet isn't going to suffer the same injuries as an elephant dropped from 10 feet. This is why it doesn't hurt when toddlers jump on their parents who are laying down don't hurt.  

Mass will still play a role of creating the force provided that the person can move the mass at a significant speed..  A person that weighs 150 pounds is going to have a harder punch than a person weighing 600 pounds.  That same 600 pound person if thrown to the ground is going to have more damage than a 150 pound person simply because the skeleton will absorb some of the impact from weight.  The OP's question are very general so I'm sure there will be even more perspectives to come


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> Mass will still play a role of creating the force provided that the person can move the mass at a significant speed.. A person that weighs 150 pounds is going to have a harder punch than a person weighing 600 pounds. That same 600 pound person if thrown to the ground is going to have more damage than a 150 pound person simply because the skeleton will absorb some of the impact from weight. The OP's question are very general so I'm sure there will be even more perspectives to come



What we can't say though is who will feel the more pain, damage doesn't always equal the amount of pain felt.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> What we can't say though is who will feel the more pain, damage doesn't always equal the amount of pain felt.


That's true. People have different thresholds for pain. Pain is one of those things that isn't based on body mass, size, or gender.


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## Hanzou (Aug 29, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Do skinny person getting punched or kicked feel pain more than some one bigger? A skinny girl vs bigger guy!!!
> 
> Being bigger more body fat help? A skinny person getting punched , kicked or thrown to the ground hard, feel more pain and easier to break bones than bigger person?
> 
> ...



That would make sense. A person with more muscle around their bones may be more able to withstand heavy blows than a scarecrow, since muscle tends to be a bit more dense than fat and skin.

Size always matters. Never let anyone tell you differently.


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## Tez3 (Aug 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> Size always matters.



Only to men.......

The question from the OP though is who feels the most pain not how many blows someone can take. What size you are has nothing to do with how much pain you can withstand.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 29, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I agree with that because that's the same formula I use for when a person hits the ground. lol.  A cat with it's legs tide dropped from 10 feet isn't going to suffer the same injuries as an elephant dropped from 10 feet. This is why it doesn't hurt when toddlers jump on their parents who are laying down don't hurt.
> 
> Mass will still play a role of creating the force provided that the person can move the mass at a significant speed..  A person that weighs 150 pounds is going to have a harder punch than a person weighing 600 pounds.  That same 600 pound person if thrown to the ground is going to have more damage than a 150 pound person simply because the skeleton will absorb some of the impact from weight.  The OP's question are very general so I'm sure there will be even more perspectives to come



There are all kinds of effects that cause injury in falling. The cushion of the impacted area for example.

You fall into a bed in your room or trip on floor in your room and down you go. Even jumping on soft nice pillows can cause injury.

You fall into a bed of downy feathers, you might survive. You fall onto a hard cement sidewalk, not so likely.

And how you fall also affects the outcome. You fall first on your head, not good. You fall splayed out onto your back, which distributes the impact force over a larger area, that might be better. 

You fall on your head really bad, you fall on your side or arms okay, you fall on you back better. More surface area if you fall on you back to distributes the impact force.

We can survive an impact of about 60 Gs to 70 Gs.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> That would make sense. A person with more muscle around their bones may be more able to withstand heavy blows than a scarecrow, since muscle tends to be a bit more dense than fat and skin.
> 
> Size always matters. Never let anyone tell you differently.



More muscle around their bones may withstand heavy blows but it will not help with pain.

I'm sure nerve endings and their sensitivity UNDER the skin, more than the mass under the skin which is superficial to the nerves themselves more pain person feel.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 29, 2015)

Also keep in mind some one overweight or underweight could be easier to break bones if some one got punched, kicked or thrown them to ground really hard.

Some one who is anorexic or borderline anorexic that get punched, kicked or thrown them to ground hard easier to break bones.

Some martial arts schools may not even allow anorexic or borderline anorexic people in.

Likewise really big bodybuilders like Jay Cutler https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Jay_Cutler_Aug_2014.JPG

Or really obese person 300 pounds or more. The martial arts schools may not even allow them in.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 29, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> Likewise really big bodybuilders like Jay Cutler


  My school likes to have people like that to join.  For us we see his size as being an opportunity to learn how to deal with people his size. He would be a bonus to our school to practice things like chin na, flowing with punching, and getting over any intimidation of being hit by someone that looks like him. 

We do however turn away obese people who are clearly too overweight to do our training.  Our training is very demanding and our fear is that they will either have a heart attack or that their weight would shift during forms in a way that their joints can't handle. We have had really skinny teens but they weren't anorexic.  One teen was skinny but his bones were really hard.  I'm in my 40's and his blocks were painful, all I could feel was bone. The teen was actually my inspiration to make my forearms hard like metal pipes. 

There are just so many factors in play.  I originally thought that the OP was asking because he/she is skinny.


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## crazydiamond (Aug 29, 2015)

All I can say is I am subject to pain as much as anyone despite my size. But because I am bigger (both muscle and some fat) it is harder (not impossible)  for my fellow normal sized (or smaller) class mates to hurt or bruise me and even successfully implement some locks on me. Even when trying to control my own power, I have left bruises and minor pain on my partners - which I HATE doing because then others wont spare with me - and I am not into hurting folks - so I take the power level even down farther.  That said -good solid punch to the face, or knee cap, or hits to the small joints like hands or foot/ankle and I can be hurt as easy as anyone.But when you got 100 lbs on some folks or more...there is a difference.


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## Hanzou (Aug 29, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Only to men.......



So women don't have to worry about being attacked by a man? 



> The question from the OP though is who feels the most pain not how many blows someone can take. What size you are has nothing to do with how much pain you can withstand.



From getting kicked or punched.

If you're a scrawney guy facing a muscle-bound monster, your potential for injury or even death is quite a bit higher than his.


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## Hanzou (Aug 29, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> More muscle around their bones may withstand heavy blows but it will not help with pain.



If the muscles are providing a natural barrier to impact, then it's going to take a higher amount of force to inflict pain. It's like hitting an out of shape guy in his flabby stomach, versus hitting an in-shape guy with rock hard abs.



> I'm sure nerve endings and their sensitivity UNDER the skin, more than the mass under the skin which is superficial to the nerves themselves more pain person feel.



Again, we're talking about striking here. A scrawny person needs a high level of technique to match the power of a muscle bound individual. This is why people say that technique and skill can overcome a strength advantage, but strength will always be an advantage.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2015)

If you are big being thrown seems to mess them up more.probably physics or something.

If you got a machine that swings a hammer at the same rate at a guy with more mass. Fat muscle whatever. And a guy with less mass.

The more mass guy would probably be able to take harder impacts.


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## drop bear (Aug 29, 2015)

Hanzou said:


> So women don't have to worry about being attacked by a man?



It's a double entendre.


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## Tez3 (Aug 30, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> All I can say is I am subject to pain as much as anyone despite my size. But because I am bigger (both muscle and some fat) it is harder (not impossible)  for my fellow normal sized (or smaller) class mates to hurt or bruise me and even successfully implement some locks on me. Even when trying to control my own power, I have left bruises and minor pain on my partners - which I HATE doing because then others wont spare with me - and I am not into hurting folks - so I take the power level even down farther.  That said -good solid punch to the face, or knee cap, or hits to the small joints like hands or foot/ankle and I can be hurt as easy as anyone.But when you got 100 lbs on some folks or more...there is a difference.




We insist that our big guys train with more importance on technique than strength, not to save the 'weaker' ones though it is good for them to train with people stronger than them. We insist on technique because when they meet an opponent that fighter is going be the same size and strength as them. So many people use their strength in training and muscle their way though sparring but they forget they will be matched in competition like for like. Their strength is negated and they will only have techniques to fall back on, if they are used to forcing smaller less strong opponents to submit they are in for a shock when it doesn't work.
Powering down is good for you, it makes you think about what you are doing, you can as you say easily punch them out but faced with someone your size and strength or even bigger then if that's all you rely on you are stuck.


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## donald1 (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm sure any good school wouldn't just start you on throws immidiatly in ways that may break bones. No I'm sure they would teach you well so this could be avoided regardless of weight size


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> That's true. People have different thresholds for pain. Pain is one of those things that isn't based on body mass, size, or gender.


Actually, pain thresholds do correlate broadly on gender.  I referenced some of the studies above but the short of it is, on the bell, women tend to have lower pain thresholds than men.  Naturally, there are outliers for both groups on either side of their respective bells which can frequently place representatives for one in front of or behind representatives for the other.

I know that it's politically correct to pretend that there are no gender differences and all are equal, but that's simply not dealing with reality and a disservice to people seeking advice or information.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> We insist that our big guys train with more importance on technique than strength, not to save the 'weaker' ones though it is good for them to train with people stronger than them. We insist on technique because when they meet an opponent that fighter is going be the same size and strength as them. So many people use their strength in training and muscle their way though sparring but they forget they will be matched in competition like for like. Their strength is negated and they will only have techniques to fall back on, if they are used to forcing smaller less strong opponents to submit they are in for a shock when it doesn't work.
> Powering down is good for you, it makes you think about what you are doing, you can as you say easily punch them out but faced with someone your size and strength or even bigger then if that's all you rely on you are stuck.


I would  say that about 90% of Jow Ga stuff doesn't work if the technique is wrong. We often tell students to worry less about hitting hard and focus more on technique.  The power will come once technique is correct.  It's good that you make sure that they understand the importance of technique.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2015)

donald1 said:


> I'm sure any good school wouldn't just start you on throws immidiatly in ways that may break bones. No I'm sure they would teach you well so this could be avoided regardless of weight size


   yeah that would be a good way to get a few court dates via law suits. lol.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2015)

The differences between genders when it comes to pain is a bit of a minefield though, Men 'feel more pain after major ops' - BBC News

_Dr Andreas Sandner-Kiesling, from the Medical University of Graz in Austria, said: "The influence of gender is a key issue in medicine. 
The gender differences on pain perception are still heavily disputed, both in experimental and clinical fields_."

_Dr Beverly Collett, a consultant in pain management and anaesthesia at the University Hospital of Leicester NHS Trust, said: "The study titillates and makes you want to ask more questions, but doesn't allow you to probe it.

"Which procedures were classed as major surgery? How old were they? That will have an effect on sex hormones. And pain will be dependent on the parts of the body being biopsied." 

She said women would report pain when heat was applied to the skin before men did, but that differences in pain perception were smaller than animal tests would suggest.

She said there was also a psychological component to pain, and men were known to "increase their ability to resist pain" when treated by young attractive female nurses compared with unattractive old male ones. 

Meanwhile entrenched social values from childhood - boys told to get up after a fall, while girls were kissed better - also affected pain perception, she said.

"There's been a lot of dispute about pain in men and women, and this study does not clarify the issue."
_
*'Hugely variable'*
_Dr Edmund Keogh, a pain researcher at the University of Bath, commented: "There might be a difference between how men and women respond to analgesics, we don't know yet, we need to have lots more research."

He added that the overall picture on gender differences in pain was unclear: "The results are fairly inconsistent - some studies find differences, some don't and there's a lot of variability between them."_


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Actually, pain thresholds do correlate broadly on gender.  I referenced some of the studies above but the short of it is, on the bell, women tend to have lower pain thresholds than men.  Naturally, there are outliers for both groups on either side of their respective bells which can frequently place representatives for one in front of or behind representatives for the other.
> 
> I know that it's politically correct to pretend that there are no gender differences and all are equal, but that's simply not dealing with reality and a disservice to people seeking advice or information.
> 
> ...


I don't know if its a gender thing as much as cultural thing.  Most women aren't taught to have that same durability that men have. Many cultures frown upon girls who are tomboys out in the street playing football or wrestling in the grass.  The more bumps and bruises that a child learns to handle as a kid the better that child is able to deal with pain as an adult.  When an 8 year old daughter is hurt most parents will comfort her.  When an 8 year old son gets hurts, the mother will comfort him, but the dad will respond with something like "walk it off" if the injury is not severe.  I'm also guilty of this with females.  If a 30 year old man were to fall in the street, I would ask if he was ok, and probably only ask that.  If it is a woman then I would ask if she's ok, and then maybe say "can't you walk" and I would comfort her.  I think it's this role and expectation of men are supposed to be tough that helps men to deal with pain better.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2015)

Many women are also taught not to show pain, either through embarrassment or because of cultural issues when it's period pain or what is called 'women's problems', it's still not done to talk about this in many cultures which sadly means often such problems are missed by medical staff.


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## JowGaWolf (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Many women are also taught not to show pain, either through embarrassment or because of cultural issues when it's period pain or what is called 'women's problems', it's still not done to talk about this in many cultures which sadly means often such problems are missed by medical staff.


Very true.


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> She said there was also a psychological component to pain, and men were known to "increase their ability to resist pain" when treated by young attractive female nurses compared with unattractive old male ones.


Given the results of the "cursing and swearing" study, this doesn't surprise me.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Many women are also taught not to show pain, either through embarrassment or because of cultural issues when it's period pain or what is called 'women's problems', it's still not done to talk about this in many cultures which sadly means often such problems are missed by medical staff.


Most recent studies attempt to control for socialization issues and yet still find differences.

It's like Strength and Muscle Mass studies.  Yes, there's overlap, but one gender floats more to one side than the other.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Aug 31, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I don't know if its a gender thing as much as cultural thing.  Most women aren't taught to have that same durability that men have. Many cultures frown upon girls who are tomboys out in the street playing football or wrestling in the grass.  The more bumps and bruises that a child learns to handle as a kid the better that child is able to deal with pain as an adult.  When an 8 year old daughter is hurt most parents will comfort her.  When an 8 year old son gets hurts, the mother will comfort him, but the dad will respond with something like "walk it off" if the injury is not severe.  I'm also guilty of this with females.  If a 30 year old man were to fall in the street, I would ask if he was ok, and probably only ask that.  If it is a woman then I would ask if she's ok, and then maybe say "can't you walk" and I would comfort her.  I think it's this role and expectation of men are supposed to be tough that helps men to deal with pain better.


It's not all Socialization and Cultural differences.  Modern researchers are certainly smart enough to account for that and most definitely feel pressure to do so.  Even when controlling for differences in socialization, most research finds a difference in male vs female pain thresholds.  There's been dozens of studies on this because it represents untold billions of dollars to the pharmaceutical industry.

Here's yet another reported study, from this year, which concludes that, though men and women are taught to handle pain differently, there are also physiological and hormonal differences which impact the pain thresholds.

Women DO feel pain more intensely than men

It's not as if the research is being swept under the rug.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2015)

The question of course would be are women looked at as inferior for supposedly feeling pain more intensely because quite often the answer is yes, men are considered as being braver etc while women are considered weak.


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## EddieCyrax (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> The question of course would be are women looked at as inferior for supposedly feeling pain more intensely because quite often the answer is yes, men are considered as being braver etc while women are considered weak.



As I have witnessed my wife give birth to two children, I would never characterize any woman as weak.......


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## moonhill99 (Aug 31, 2015)

Some people have more nerve endings and their sensitivity UNDER the skin than other people? That explain why some people have more pain than other people?


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## moonhill99 (Aug 31, 2015)

I hear Systema is way to get really strong and not feel pain.

2 minutes of hard striking by the same guy!!


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> I hear Systema is way to get really strong and not feel pain.
> 
> 2 minutes of hard striking by the same guy!!




No more than any other martial art. You will always feel pain ( pain is your body's way of telling you that you're still alive by the way) you just get used to it, when you start looking forward to it, then worry.


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## moonhill99 (Aug 31, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> No more than any other martial art. You will always feel pain ( pain is your body's way of telling you that you're still alive by the way) you just get used to it, when you start looking forward to it, then worry.



So the best way to get really strong and not feel pain is to get kicked and punched every day for your body to build up muscles.

Going to the gym and lifting weights will not help because it is different type of muscles you get at a gym.

Or breathing exercises one can do to not feel pain.


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## Tez3 (Aug 31, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> So the best way to get really strong and not feel pain is to get kicked and punched every day for your body to build up muscles.
> 
> Going to the gym and lifting weights will not help because it is different type of muscles you get at a gym.
> 
> Or breathing exercises one can do to not feel pain.



No, not really. If you get hurt a lot you get used to coping with it, watch pro cyclists for example they do three week competitions and continue to ride with all sorts of injuries, it's about coping with pain not building up muscles. It's about 'growing' fortitude and being able to ignore pain, there's nothing you can do to prevent pain if you are going to fight. You need to feel pain, it's bad if you don't. You can't breathe your way not to feel it, breathing exercises help you cope with it.
It's mental training not physical training that allows you to work through the pain, you won't find that in the gym.


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## crazydiamond (Sep 1, 2015)

My two cents is if you build up notable muscles it will insulate you from hit pain and damage from smaller weaker opponents - that's my experience anyway in being hit SOME areas like the stomach, arms, legs etc. This does not work on things like knee caps, nose, ankles - obviously  - but the meatier areas of the body - bulking up will protect you. Again this just my experience when sparing with smaller less strong (and less experienced) opponents. They have weight categories in boxing and MMA for a reason.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> My two cents is if you build up notable muscles it will insulate you from hit pain and damage from smaller weaker opponents - that's my experience anyway in being hit SOME areas like the stomach, arms, legs etc. This does not work on things like knee caps, nose, ankles - obviously  - but the meatier areas of the body - bulking up will protect you. Again this just my experience when sparing with smaller less strong (and less experienced) opponents.




It's not the muscles that are 'protecting' you from pain when you are sparring but the adrenaline.


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

EddieCyrax said:


> As I have witnessed my wife give birth to two children, I would never characterize any woman as weak.......


Yeah, if women feel pain more severely than men, the fact that they still go through childbirth is incredible!  Our second child, as so often, was done in record time.  The first was a totally different story, three unrelenting days in the hospital of, dare I say it, hell.  I wouldn't want to have gone through that and it was pretty shocking to witness as a dad watching on and comforting.


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> The question of course would be are women looked at as inferior for supposedly feeling pain more intensely because quite often the answer is yes, men are considered as being braver etc while women are considered weak.


That's it in a nutshell!!  What's to prove? 

If women "feel" pain more, then...big deal. More cred to them to getting on with life, training, child birth and generally dealing with us blokes!  If a male mate of mine was diagnosed (if that's the word, hehe) scientifically as experiencing more "pain" for the same impact as myself, I wouldn't look down on him.  Why?  I'd just be glad it wasn't me.

Who cares about comparisons, just get on with life and do your best/worst!   I should be writing Nike ads or something...


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> It's not the muscles that are 'protecting' you from pain when you are sparring but the adrenaline.


I don't know...I don't have any but am told by friends that are tatted up that when you get tattoos on the areas with little body tissue in between, ie across ribs, under arm pit (ouch!!!), that it hurts like a son of b, compared to the shoulder, arm, thigh etc.  Surely that is because you are right up against the nerves??

Wouldn't the same apply to getting punched, if you can build up more muscle...or fat (padding)..., might that not reduce the impact to the nerves and also thus the "pain"?

Maybe a fat bloke getting a strike to the gut, depending on his fight experience, may not "feel" as much "pain" as a guy with good abdominal conditioning. Maybe the strike/pain would be relayed through the nerves more in a conditioned guy than a fat one, would fat be more of a buffer? 

Disclaimer:  You may not have figured it from the above : )  but, I ain't no doctor...yet...  : )


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

drop bear said:


> If you are big being thrown seems to mess them up more.probably physics or something.
> 
> If you got a machine that swings a hammer at the same rate at a guy with more mass. Fat muscle whatever. And a guy with less mass.
> 
> The more mass guy would probably be able to take harder impacts.


I'm kind of inclined to agree with this.  The dude's pain receptors (ie true ability to deal with pain or pain threshold) may be no different, or even more acute, but if he has more coverage/mass, surely that soaks up some of the punishment and he will both suffer less physical damage and feel less pain, unless (as Arnie would say) he is a girlie man...  : )

The mind always come into it, even a big bloke may think he is getting a maiming more than he actually is and therefore crumples before a smaller dude does.


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> The question of course would be are women looked at as inferior for supposedly feeling pain more intensely because quite often the answer is yes, men are considered as being braver etc while women are considered weak.


Yes, that's true.  It is also a disservice to make those sort of assumptions.

Additionally, it's a disservice to over-emphasize the differences.  Statistically, the bells are closer than many people seem to realize.

Humans are weird.  They seem to want to swing from extreme position to extreme position, either denying that there are any differences at all, or emphasizing the differences to the point of caricature.  Both are foolish.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> Yeah, if women feel pain more severely than men, the fact that they still go through childbirth is incredible!


Childbirth is not the place to do baseline pain thresholds.  During childbirth the female body produces more endorphins and engages other physiological pain coping systems that are not typically available to the woman when not in child birth.

Yes, child birth hurts "a really bunch" but it's not the baseline for a woman.

However, it also gives researchers a great opportunity to look for ways to tailor pain medication specifically for women, similar to the way that pregnancy allowed researchers to develop anti-rejection drugs.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

I think the OP is looking for a way to spar/fight without feeling any pain, hence the questions about building up muscles and whether fat helps ( I don't think fat helps anything really except perhaps make you too big to kidnap?)
In short I think there is no way to eliminate pain, nothing you can do to stop some getting through (unless you're dead), being fit, having muscles building up tolerance to pain all good but you will never stop all pain. there are people who are born feeling no pain, medical cases and they have to take extreme care because they can damage themselves without knowing which leads to big medical problems so, no you don't want to not feel pain, getting to enjoy it however is another question I'm not going to address here.


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> That's it in a nutshell!!  What's to prove?
> 
> If women "feel" pain more, then...big deal. More cred to them to getting on with life, training, child birth and generally dealing with us blokes!  If a male mate of mine was diagnosed (if that's the word, hehe) scientifically as experiencing more "pain" for the same impact as myself, I wouldn't look down on him.  Why?  I'd just be glad it wasn't me.
> 
> Who cares about comparisons, just get on with life and do your best/worst!   I should be writing Nike ads or something...


The best option is to deal with life as it is, not as we would wish it to be.  Treat individuals as individuals.  

Just because different people "feel" pain differently doesn't mean that they all *react* to pain the same way.  There's a huge difference.  I've got some friends who simply don't get emotionally invested in a fight until they've take a good sock to the kisser.  They just can't gear up to it mentally.  But we all know other people who will mentally "shut down" when hit for the first time, feeling the first "real pain."  While how you "feel" pain is very important, how you *react* to pain is much more important in our specific context.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Childbirth is not the place to do baseline pain thresholds.  During childbirth the female body produces more endorphins and engages other physiological pain coping systems that are not typically available to the woman when not in child birth.
> 
> Yes, child birth hurts "a really bunch" but it's not the baseline for a woman.
> 
> ...



Even in labour the pain felt can vary hugely though and there is a psychological aspect to labour which is why great care should be taken about the mother's state of mind ie is she terrified of having pain, is she scared of being in labour, is she relaxed etc. Education works a great deal towards lessening pain as does the atmosphere and situation of where she is giving birth, a lot of factors are involved in childbirth.
I have seen several programmes on childbirth in the US, it seems 'gas and air' isn't used at all?  Seems unnecessarily cruel to make mothers go through pain when they could be using something to help.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> I don't know...I don't have any but am told by friends that are tatted up that when you get tattoos on the areas with little body tissue in between, ie across ribs, under arm pit (ouch!!!), that it hurts like a son of b, compared to the shoulder, arm, thigh etc.  Surely that is because you are right up against the nerves??
> 
> Wouldn't the same apply to getting punched, if you can build up more muscle...or fat (padding)..., might that not reduce the impact to the nerves and also thus the "pain"?
> 
> ...



Sensory nerves are pretty much 100% in the superficial tissues. Muscles are UNDER those nerves and do nothing whatsoever to "pad" them. 

Pain perception is extremely subjective. Tag a new student who has never really been hit before, and they drop, convinced that they're about to die. Give them some time and experience and they shrug off a harder strike like it was nothing. 

Two things have likely changed. 
1 - their perception of how severe pain is. 
2 - they've learned how to use their body to absorb impact more safely. Strikes are deceleration injuries. Breath control, muscle tension, body movement, all combine to extend the time from contact to the end of the strike. The same amount of kinetic energy, but over a slightly longer period of time, means it just isn't going to hurt as much. 

I've seen far too many people in the ER who tell me the pain from their ingrown toenail is a 10 to view pain as anything other than primarily subjective. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Even in labour the pain felt can vary hugely though and there is a psychological aspect to labour which is why great care should be taken about the mother's state of mind ie is she terrified of having pain, is she scared of being in labour, is she relaxed etc. Education works a great deal towards lessening pain as does the atmosphere and situation of where she is giving birth, a lot of factors are involved in childbirth.
> I have seen several programmes on childbirth in the US, it seems 'gas and air' isn't used at all?  Seems unnecessarily cruel to make mothers go through pain when they could be using something to help.



The U.S. uses the full range of options for pain control during childbirth. It's not my area, (the standard response to a labor patient in the ER is "get them out of here!!!!") but I believe the most popular is epidural. 

A lot of what you've probably seen is from people who choose to deliver that way. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> The U.S. uses the full range of options for pain control during childbirth. It's not my area, (the standard response to a labor patient in the ER is "get them out of here!!!!") but I believe the most popular is epidural.
> 
> A lot of what you've probably seen is from people who choose to deliver that way.
> 
> ...




I did wonder because whether on real life programmes or fiction there is never anyone breathing into the 'mask' while using the other hand to break the bones in their partner's hand. A nation of masochists perhaps!  My idea of natural childbirth is to take my make up off, I didn't have any pain needless to say, gas and air and pethidine are wonderful.

Looking it up more it seems the US doesn't use gas and air. Is gas and air (Entonox) used in hospitals in the US?
Why Isn't Nitrous Oxide Widely Available for Labor Pain Relief in the U.S.? - Our Bodies Ourselves


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I did wonder because whether on real life programmes or fiction there is never anyone breathing into the 'mask' while using the other hand to break the bones in their partner's hand. A nation of masochists perhaps!  My idea of natural childbirth is to take my make up off, I didn't have any pain needless to say, gas and air and pethidine are wonderful.
> 
> Looking it up more it seems the US doesn't use gas and air. Is gas and air (Entonox) used in hospitals in the US?



You'd have to be a little more specific than "gas and air"... Air is nothing but gasses, after all, so the term is both redundant and uninformative. 
Nitrous oxide and such are used in some places, but frankly there are better options available for pain control. 

Just an FYI... Never give anyone your hand to squeeze. Give them two fingers. Nobody can squeeze hard enough to hurt you that way. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> You'd have to be a little more specific than "gas and air"... Air is nothing but gasses, after all, so the term is both redundant and uninformative.
> Nitrous oxide and such are used in some places, but frankly there are better options available for pain control.
> 
> Just an FYI... Never give anyone your hand to squeeze. Give them two fingers. Nobody can squeeze hard enough to hurt you that way.
> ...




It's nitrous oxide and oxygen ( I gave the name Entonox in my link) commonly known by all in the UK  as 'gas and air' ( practically a national treasure) , used by paramedics for pain relief for various injuries and in childbirth, it's NOT used by dentists here. It's a very effective self administered short term pain relief,  we've had guys who've had dislocated shoulders in training given it, makes moving them to the amby easier. Works beautifully for childbirth as there's no crossover to the baby and without the risks (and numbness) involved with an epidural.   Excellent stuff.
http://www.christie.nhs.uk/booklets/388.pdf
Patient-administered inhalation of nitrous oxide and oxygen gas for procedural pain relief
Pain relief using Entonox® | Great Ormond Street Hospital


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Sensory nerves are pretty much 100% in the superficial tissues. Muscles are UNDER those nerves and do nothing whatsoever to "pad" them.
> 
> Pain perception is extremely subjective. Tag a new student who has never really been hit before, and they drop, convinced that they're about to die. Give them some time and experience and they shrug off a harder strike like it was nothing.
> 
> ...


How is it that after having fought and sparred heavy contact for a while, I noticed that the degree I would bruise dropped off markedly?  It wasn't just that I had learned to evade all strikes (I wish), it was that I noticed I was not bruising up nearly as much to hits.  Does the body, internal and external, somehow condition?


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

lklawson said:


> The best option is to deal with life as it is, not as we would wish it to be.  Treat individuals as individuals.
> 
> Just because different people "feel" pain differently doesn't mean that they all *react* to pain the same way.  There's a huge difference.  I've got some friends who simply don't get emotionally invested in a fight until they've take a good sock to the kisser.  They just can't gear up to it mentally.  But we all know other people who will mentally "shut down" when hit for the first time, feeling the first "real pain."  While how you "feel" pain is very important, how you *react* to pain is much more important in our specific context.
> 
> ...


Yeah, like in Southpaw (haven't seen but would like to).  I have wondered about that, there are examples of good real life boxers I have read about that need to even get a little punch drunk before they engage/wind up.  I have never been like that.  I wonder why they need that level of stimuli, and sometimes a bit of damage, before "investing"?


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> How is it that after having fought and sparred heavy contact for a while, I noticed that the degree I would bruise dropped off markedly?  It wasn't just that I had learned to evade all strikes (I wish), it was that I noticed I was not bruising up nearly as much to hits.  Does the body, internal and external, somehow condition?



I can't answer that but after my husband's heart attack we've noticed how easily he now bruises from the slightest thing, it's been put down to his meds notably the aspirin, of course that's probably nothing to do with why you aren't bruising so much lol.


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Childbirth is not the place to do baseline pain thresholds.  During childbirth the female body produces more endorphins and engages other physiological pain coping systems that are not typically available to the woman when not in child birth.
> 
> Yes, child birth hurts "a really bunch" but it's not the baseline for a woman.
> 
> ...


You mean I can get an anti-rejection drug to work on my wife??


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> You mean I can get an anti-rejection drug to work on my wife??




Consider yourself Gibb smacked!


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## Zero (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> Consider yourself Gibb smacked!


I don't know that one, will google, is it some Yorkshire dude/term??  Is that Yorkie for gob-smacked??...


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## Dirty Dog (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> How is it that after having fought and sparred heavy contact for a while, I noticed that the degree I would bruise dropped off markedly?  It wasn't just that I had learned to evade all strikes (I wish), it was that I noticed I was not bruising up nearly as much to hits.  Does the body, internal and external, somehow condition?



Some of it is conditioning, some of it is better evasion, some of it is better blocking (you may get hit, but you've partially deflected the blow, which means less energy into the target), some of it is learning to move with the blow, etc.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> I don't know that one, will google, is it some Yorkshire dude/term??  Is that Yorkie for gob-smacked??...




LOL, it's from NCIS where Gibbs smacks his staff round the back of the head!


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## crazydiamond (Sep 1, 2015)

Respect to you senior MA's.... but I don't get it. When there is a notable size and strength difference (I am talking 50-100 lbs or more) in opponents I have noticed the struggle of my MA partners to bruise or hurt me. Their force on my bulk is not enough to cause pain in SOME strikes and locks. When I spar with some bigger or more trained to deliver force - then I feel it. Simple example - my daughters and even my wife hurt.... themselves....when punching me in the gut.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> Simple example - my daughters and even my wife hurt.... themselves....when punching me in the gut.



I have to ask this, why are they punching you in the gut? Was it something you said?


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2015)

Zero said:


> You mean I can get an anti-rejection drug to work on my wife??


Of course.

However, most of them are illegal.  All of them are illegal to use on an unsuspecting target.

That said, the drug C2H6O is still technically legal in most cases, is most often used consensually, and is a very very common "anti-rejection drug to work on [insert female here]."  I'd wager, in fact, it's the most common drug for these purposes.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## crazydiamond (Sep 1, 2015)

Tez3 said:


> I have to ask this, why are they punching you in the gut? Was it something you said?


 
1) Oldest daughter saw me come out of a heavy lifting session in the gym and was being silly started dancing around pretending to hit me in the gut - so I said "go ahead.... hit me!" .  She did and sprained her wrist.
2) Youngest daughter is in MMA  kids class - so she likes to punch me all over - usually after she is done with class hyped up and I just stand there, talking with other parents, while she works away on the body shots (yes parents give me a look)
3) Wife - well yes - she got mad at some hurtful dumb thing I said....We were both embarrassed 

The big guy usually gets to be the punching bag - cause we can't feel pain right?


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## lklawson (Sep 1, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> The big guy usually gets to be the punching bag - cause we can't feel pain right?


Not usually.  It's usually because humans are intimidated and/or jealous by people with a larger (in shape) frame than them. 

Generally speaking, you become the punching bag as the "big guy" because the rest of us want to ensure that we can physically match you (the advantages of greater mass and greater strength) or because we want to take you down a notch in the pecking order of Social Dominance Ritual (and, yes, studies do indicate that taller people are automatically granted a higher social standing by virtue of merely being taller).

We just *tell* you it's because you can take it better.  We may even think that we believe that, ourselves.  But subconsciously...

No, I'm not joking, though I really wish I was.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

crazydiamond said:


> 1) Oldest daughter saw me come out of a heavy lifting session in the gym and was being silly started dancing around pretending to hit me in the gut - so I said "go ahead.... hit me!" .  She did and sprained her wrist.
> 2) Youngest daughter is in MMA  kids class - so she likes to punch me all over - usually after she is done with class hyped up and I just stand there, talking with other parents, while she works away on the body shots (yes parents give me a look)
> 3) Wife - well yes - she got mad at some hurtful dumb thing I said....We were both embarrassed
> 
> The big guy usually gets to be the punching bag - cause we can't feel pain right?



Our big guys let themselves get beaten up by the kids too, it helps the kids when their parents are on deployment and they get worried, frustrated but can't say anything so we have a session where the fighters come in to 'spar' with the kids, the guys don't get hurt physically of course but watching the kids can be painful when you don't know if their parents are coming back from a warzone in one piece or at all.


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## moonhill99 (Sep 1, 2015)

*


crazydiamond said:



			1) Oldest daughter saw me come out of a heavy lifting session in the gym and was being silly started dancing around pretending to hit me in the gut - so I said "go ahead.... hit me!" . She did and sprained her wrist.
2) Youngest daughter is in MMA kids class - so she likes to punch me all over - usually after she is done with class hyped up and I just stand there, talking with other parents, while she works away on the body shots (yes parents give me a look)

Click to expand...

*=======================================

If you are 200 pounds or more and she is small skinny girl she can't really do much of any thing as there will be little power when she tries to hit you.

If she wants to have really strong punches and not be punching like a small little girl!!  But really strong punches. She needs to go to gym and start lifting weights and get a a punching bag and hit that every day.

And hitting stuff to work on timing and to toughen up the wrist and shoulders and torso.


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## Tez3 (Sep 1, 2015)

moonhill99 said:


> =======================================
> 
> If you are 200 pounds or more and she is small skinny girl she can't really do much of any thing as there will be little power when she tries to hit you.
> 
> ...




When you are smaller you learn to be very, very sneaky. It's not all about big punches and strength it's about what Granny Weatherwax called headology. If she's small no amount of gym work and lifting weights is going to get her matching a big guy, what she needs is craftiness, good techniques and being able to think outside the box.


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## Zero (Sep 2, 2015)

lklawson said:


> Of course.
> 
> However, most of them are illegal.  All of them are illegal to use on an unsuspecting target.
> 
> ...


Ha!  Thanks, although I kinda wished I'd never asked now!!  : )  I think she was an antidote to your C2H cocktail...it's called mace


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