# Are the sweeps used in free sparring in any kata?



## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

You see some of it here.


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## wab25 (Sep 29, 2020)

I don't believe those two "sweeps" are in Shotokan kata, as demonstrated. However, all the skills necessary to do those are practiced quite a bit in the katas. 

The one at 30 seconds, where he catches the kick and sweeps... The hand going into chamber is the hand catching the kick, while the "punching" hand is reaching for lapel / gi / upper body control. The sweep is then an application of the low front stance walking that is done in nearly all the katas. The better you can do the low front stance walking forward and backward, the better you will be at that particular sweep.

The first one was more a throw coming from a turn with good stance and power. These are all over the katas... that was one application of a 180 degree turn, which shows up a lot in the katas. Again, the better you are at turning with good balance and structure, the better that throw is.

There are other ways to learn both of those. I learned them both in jujitsu and was decent at them, without ever studying a karate kata. Now that I have been training Shotokan Karate... I have noticed these throws (and most of my other throws) have gotten significantly better. Most of that is due to better structure from the katas... not from the free sparring or self defense or bunkai work.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

I did not watch the video, but anyone interested can look at the nami-ashi geri in Naihanchi/Tekki Shodan and decide if sweeping is an application they want to train from the kata.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

Where do sweeps in Shotokan and Goju Ryu sparring come from if it's not directly from a Kata?


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I did not watch the video, but anyone interested can look at the nami-ashi geri in Naihanchi/Tekki Shodan and decide if sweeping is an application they want to train from the kata.



Where is the move that can be translated to a sweep?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where is the move that can be translated to a sweep?



Nami ashi geri.  Look it up.


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## wab25 (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where do sweeps in Shotokan and Goju Ryu sparring come from if it's not directly from a Kata?


The sweeps are a direct application of the principles, skills and movement trained in the katas. To view kata as a dictionary of all the techniques in an art is a very limited view of kata. And it significantly limits your view of the art.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where do sweeps in Shotokan and Goju Ryu sparring come from if it's not directly from a Kata?



I won't venture to answer directly this question as phrased, but one of the first kata in Goju-ryu has a foot sweep.  Gekisai Dai Ichi.


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## dvcochran (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You see some of it here.


Offhand I do not remember sweeps in any of the forms I know. I will say that was some good and legit sparring. Good video.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Offhand I do not remember sweeps in any of the forms I know. I will say that was some good and legit sparring. Good video.



Yes it was.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I won't venture to answer directly this question as phrased, but one of the first kata in Goju-ryu has a foot sweep.  Gekisai Dai Ichi.



OK so that covers Goju. Still wonder why Shotokan has it.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Nami ashi geri.  Look it up.



Done. There's no use of the arms.


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## dvcochran (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> OK so that covers Goju. Still wonder why Shotokan has it.


Not certain what you mean by 'has it'. It is a common skill in Shotokan.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dvcochran said:


> Not certain what you mean by 'has it'. It is a common skill in Shotokan.



I mean in their free sparring rules.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Done. There's no use of the arms.



OK.  

For anyone else interested in the topic, do your research.  It's true you have to follow a certain training methodology and progression path with partner drills before you see things.  It's not for everyone - those needing a literal translation, I suggest just training without kata and forms and going straight to a fighting gym.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> OK.
> 
> For anyone else interested in the topic, do your research.  It's true you have to follow a certain training methodology and progression path with partner drills before you see things.  It's not for everyone - those needing a literal translation, I suggest just training without kata and forms and going straight to a fighting gym.



You haven't even watched the clip in the OP. Do that first. Do you think that flows naturally from the curricilum?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You haven't even watched the clip in the OP. Do that first. Do you think that flows naturally from the curricilum?



Nah.  Waste of my time.  If you don't see it, that is fine.  

I'm really talking more to other people.  They should be aware a sweep is a common application for nami ashi geri as cataloged in Naihanchi/Tekki and if they want to train it in that way they need to see out the proper teacher and methodology to make it work.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Nah.  Waste of my time.  If you don't see it, that is fine.
> 
> I'm really talking more to other people.  They should be aware a sweep is a common application for nami ashi geri as cataloged in Naihanchi/Tekki and if they want to train it in that way they need to see out the proper teacher and methodology to make it work.



Yeah I don't see any pulls in the katas, which usually accompany the foot.

So that's why I'm interested how it became a scoring technique in Shotokan.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Yeah I don't see any pulls in the katas, which usually accompanies the foot.
> 
> So that's why I'm interested how it became a scoring technique in Shotokan.



You might be more happy doing MMA or kickboxing.  Nothing wrong with it.  You can learn to be a fighter very quickly with the right coaching.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> You might be more happy doing MMA or kickboxing.  Nothing wrong with it.  You can learn to be a fighter very quickly with the right coaching.



What does that have to do with my inquiry?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> What does that have to do with my inquiry?


Nothing.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Where do sweeps in Shotokan and Goju Ryu sparring come from if it's not directly from a Kata?


I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata.  Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.

From where do you get this notion?


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata.  Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.
> 
> From where do you get this notion?



It's not in the Shotokan instructional book I have either. Not even a mention of sweeps


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> It's not in the Shotokan instructional book I have either. Not even a mention of sweeps


Why is that a problem?  Why would you expect a karate instructional manual to contain the entire curriculum?

Are you learning karate from a book?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I’ve never seen a system where the entire curriculum is found within the body of kata.  Every system Ive ever trained had lots of material that was not contained in kata.



Another alternative view is that the system is found in the kata, but due to stylization and the intention of the same movement having multiple meanings, it can be impossible to ferret out exclusively by just training solo kata.  You need other drills, preferably with a partner and a teacher versed in the method to bring it out.

Another hint for those interested:  look at the Motobu partner kumite drills.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

Just as an FYI, I’ve seen Shaolin forms with sweeps in them.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Another alternative view is that the system is found in the kata, but due to stylization and the intention of the same movement having multiple meanings, it can be impossible to ferret out exclusively by just training solo kata.  You need other drills, preferably with a partner and a teacher versed in the method to bring it out.
> 
> Another hint for those interested:  look at the Motobu partner kumite drills.


Sure, of course.  But those other drills you mention are not strictly kata either.  So right there, there is more in the system that what is in kata.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure, of course.  But those other drills you mention are not strictly kata either.  So right there, there is more in the system that what is in kata.



They are kata.  The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice.  The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> They are kata.  The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice.  The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.



Are there kata applications in Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do book?


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> They are kata.  The movements with your partner are prearranged, at least at the first levels of practice.  The movements are also found in the solo kata, just idealized and formalized so it may not "look" the same.


Ok fair enough.  I’m not a karate guy so I’m not gonna try to pretend expertise I don’t have.  However, I do hold to my original post:  I’ve never experienced a style that was entirely in the forms.  There was always material and techniques that you didn’t find in the forms.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Are there kata applications in Gishin Funakoshis Karate-Do book?



Not in my recollection.  I can't check right now because I am not at my dojo.  The Oshima translation has the Funakoshi's 9 throws in it.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> There was always material and techniques that you didn’t find in the forms.


Absolutely.  You need a good sensei to unlock the system.  It is impossible to write everything into kata.  

And then there is the issue of information being lost or changed especially if you practice a style that has been refined from an older style.  Like Kanawaza karate vs. Kyan karate.  The kata changed over time.  You can glean quite a lot by going back to Kyan kata if you practice Shotokan and watch their form applications.  It doesn't mean you have to switch styles...just look at their stuff with a discerning eye.


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## wab25 (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> You can glean quite a lot by going back to Kyan kata if you practice Shotokan and watch their form applications. It doesn't mean you have to switch styles...just look at their stuff with a discerning eye.


I find there is a lot to learn about an art, if you start at the beginning of its history, and follow the changes made. Who made them, and why will tell you a lot. Understanding the founders intentions, will help you understand the changes made along the way. To get even more understanding, go back to the roots of your system, the arts the founder studied before making his own thing. There is so much to learn if you look.

I would be happy to keep answering the OPs posts... but I feel he has me on ignore... so I won't bother.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

wab25 said:


> I would be happy to keep answering the OPs posts... but I feel he has me on ignore... so I won't bother.



I like him as a conversation starter, but it's hard to discuss things seriously with him.  He is so tunnel-visioned.  I think I will mainly try to use his posts as a way to discuss MA with everyone else, not necessarily him, if that makes sense.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Not in my recollection.  I can't check right now because I am not at my dojo.  The Oshima translation has the Funakoshi's 9 throws in it.



But what are the 9 throws of Funakoshi related to in the Shotokan curriculum?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> But what are the 9 throws of Funakoshi related to in the Shotokan curriculum?



I recommend finding a good school and teacher.  You don't really want to heard it from random internet people anyway.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

There are other peculiar facts about Shotokan  kata such as the absence of a standing mawashi geri, even though there is a lying down one.

Mawashi geri clearly existed by the time Gishin made his forms, but was not put into the kata as a standing technique for whatever reason.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

Are sweeps banned in the old school JKA rule set?

I haven't watched the entire clip but they stopped in the clinch


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I like him as a conversation starter, but it's hard to discuss things seriously with him.  He is so tunnel-visioned.  I think I will mainly try to use his posts as a way to discuss MA with everyone else, not necessarily him, if that makes sense.


A spring board!


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## isshinryuronin (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> OK so that covers Goju. Still wonder why Shotokan has it.


Shotokan has its roots in Okinawan style since the 1920's.  Most of their katas are adaptations of the Okinawan's, with new Japanese names.
Your video does show sweeps and accompanying hand motion, you just do not recognize it.  This is why there are Sensei's.  Also, Shotokan katas are more stylized than the Okinawan's, so the meaning of some moves may be harder for the untrained observer to discern.  There is a lot more going on in kata than blocks, kicks, turns and punches.  Why not take lessons, Acronym.   It seems you have a keen interest in it.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

isshinryuronin said:


> Shotokan has its roots in Okinawan style since the 1920's.  Most of their katas are adaptations of the Okinawan's, with new Japanese names.
> Your video does show sweeps and accompanying hand motion, you just do not recognize it.  This is why there are Sensei's.  Also, Shotokan katas are more stylized than the Okinawan's, so the meaning of some moves may be harder for the untrained observer to discern.  There is a lot more going on in kata than blocks, kicks, turns and punches.  Why not take lessons, Acronym.   It seems you have a keen interest in it.



But the JKA rules states that grabbing is not allowed, and he grabbed even with two hands and swept. Are there multiple JKA organisations?


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## drop bear (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> OK.
> 
> For anyone else interested in the topic, do your research.  It's true you have to follow a certain training methodology and progression path with partner drills before you see things.  It's not for everyone - those needing a literal translation, I suggest just training without kata and forms and going straight to a fighting gym.



I did the research and it is not the case.

Sorry no sweeps. 

Of course if you wanted to support your statement with evidence you are welcome to.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I did the research and it is not the case.
> 
> Sorry no sweeps.
> 
> Of course if you wanted to support your statement with evidence you are welcome to.



You are saying karate-ka do not train sweeps and do not regard it as a cataloged move in their kata?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> You are saying karate-ka do not train sweeps and do not regard it as a cataloged move in their kata?


Even if a technique may not be in the form, at least the principle should be in the form.

The foot sweep requires 2 opposite direction forces. That means your upper body has to turn into one direction while your low body has to turn into the opposite direction.

Can you point out in your form that this principle is trained?


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Even if a technique may not be in the form, at least the principle should be in the form.
> 
> The foot sweep requires 2 opposite direction forces. That means your upper body has to turn into one direction while your low body has to turn into the opposite direction.
> 
> Can you point out in your form that this principle is trained?



Sure.  Let me state however that the form can be misleading to some viewers because the lower body and upper body actions do not necessarily occur at the same time in the solo kata.  Some will take that as evidence that the move is not a sweep.  I would argue the form is a catalog and it requires practice and study where you learn over time the form is the form and the application is the application.  The two can coincide - they can also not.  It takes study to see it.

I'll just pull random forms from Youtube - I am not carefully selecting by style or school because it doesn't matter for my purposes.

In the Naihanchi Shodan form, look at :22.  There is the leg action and then a second later, the hand movement.






In Gekisai Dai Ni (Dai Ichi is almost the same - I just grabbed the first one I saw) look at :30.  There is a small foot/leg  movement before the 'chop'.






And here is some sweep instruction in isolation.  I will let the viewer decide if they think it is in the kata or not.  Ultimately it matters not.  You don't need the form to train things.  Actually, it's better to do it with a partner always.  The form is a catalog and for when you have to train alone.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> In the Naihanchi Shodan form, look at :22.  There is the leg action and then a second later, the hand movement. ... at :30.  There is a small foot/leg  movement before the 'chop'.


I don't think these 2 clips are good examples.

- Hand pull back and foot sweep forward is missing.
- Any foot movement is not foot sweep. Use instep to sweep behind ankle, or use inner edge to sweep in front of the foot is also missing.

Someone told me that the Taiji system has foot sweep. I asked him to prove it. He said that Taiji has outside crescent kick that can be used as a foot sweep. IMO, the outside crescent kick and foot sweep require different training.

A: Does the WC system have foot sweep?
B: Yes. My WC system have foot sweep.
A: It's not in those 3 WC forms.
B: It's in the training.
A: Can you show me the "upper body turn into one direction while the low body turn into the opposite direction" training?
B: ...

This same subject had been discussed among many different MA systems in the past.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 29, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Just as an FYI, I’ve seen Shaolin forms with sweeps in them.


I don’t know where my brain was, but we have sweeps in our forms in Tibetan White Crane.  I can’t believe I didn’t note that instantly.

I know, it’s not karate, it’s not shotokan, it’s not shotokan under a specific organization and lineage as found in a book in the bowels of the Smithsonian.  But it’s an example.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't think these 2 clips are good examples.



Alas I doubt I can give you much video linking the formal kata with the technique.  It is what it is.  That is the nature of it.  If we want outright relationships to show that karate is a close range striking system with some grappling within it, we would have to invent new kata.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 29, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Alas I doubt I can give you much video linking the formal kata with the technique.  It is what it is.  That is the nature of it.  If we want outright relationships to show that karate is a close range striking system with some grappling within it, we would have to invent new kata.


It is a good idea to add the foot sweep into your form. This way, your next Karate generation won't have to go through the same argument as we have today.


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## dancingalone (Sep 29, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> It is a good idea to add the foot sweep into your form. This way, your next Karate generation won't have to go through the same argument as we have today.



Maybe I already have.  My foot motion when I run Gekisai Dai Ichi and Dai Ni is much bigger than what Enfield Sensei shows.  When we work the application at my school, sometimes it is a stomp, sometimes a sweep, sometimes a stomp holding uke's foot to the ground while you hit him.

To me it's a bit of a weird point of contention anyway.  Kata although a big part of karate is always only the singular part of the art.  Even if you knew every open and hidden application within the forms, you still have to practice them with a partner under the supervision of a teacher to be able to use them eventually on a practical level.  If we think it is in the form or not really is just minutiae to argue over. 

But I understand your point and generally agree.


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2020)

Acronym said:


> You see some of it here.


Yes.
_Ask your *sensei.*_


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Yes.
> _Ask your *sensei.*_



I asked the JKA rule-set instead and it explictly states that grabbing is prohibited.

I have no explanation for why a JKA event allowed it.


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## Acronym (Sep 29, 2020)

Taiji kaase had a heavy emphasis on pulls and sweeps but I don't think he was the majority in Shotokan.

Kaase came from a judo background.


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## elder999 (Sep 29, 2020)

H


Acronym said:


> I asked the JKA rule-set instead and it explictly states that grabbing is prohibited.
> 
> I have no explanation for why a JKA event allowed it.




Have a look at THIS POST where I had a similar discussion six years ago......and ask yourself why your teacher doesnt know.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> H
> 
> 
> 
> Have a look at THIS POST where I had a similar discussion six years ago......and ask yourself why your teacher doesnt know.



I know. You're the same guy who claim judo has striking, even though it's prohibited in sparring and 99.9% of club are olympic Oriented


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I know. You're the same guy who claim judo has striking, even though it's prohibited in sparring and 99.9% of club are olympic Oriented



Because it does.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




1) There are strikes inherent (and sometimes concealed) in most of the throws in judo, "Olympic" or otherwise.
2) There are explicit strikes taught in the kata of judo.
3) If you've watched Olympic or any other high-level judo, you will see the judoka pummeling each other as they try to get a grip on each other.






The referees typically allow some latitude for this, and it's not unusual to take a pretty good punch or two on the head or chest.

Likewise, simply because the JKA rules prohibit "grabbing *or clinching*" doesn't necessarily mean that the referee won't allow some latitude in close situations....especially if they lead to an otherwise clean technique ,though I might not think that the first full on throw at 13 seconds in the video you showed would be allowed, the referee didn't see that he gripped with both hands.

Your question, though, was whether sweeps (and throws) are in the JKA kata, and the answer is, quite simply, yes.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Because it does.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.

If it did, why did Kimura cross train in Shotokan Karate?


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.
> 
> If it did, why did Kimura cross train in Shotokan Karate?



In his autobiography, _My Judo,_ (no longer in print, sadly) Kimura says that he used karate as another form of _tanren_, that he did it to strengthen his hands, and to thusly improve his judo.

Here's a quote from an excerpt of Kimura's autobiography, found on this very useful webpage.

"_One day, when I visited Karate Club of Takushoku University to see a karate practice, I noticed that everyone was punching with his thumb over the pointing finger and middle finger. I thought they were all doing so to prevent the thumb from getting jammed on impact. I came to a conclusion that if I practiced Makiwara karate strikes, I would be able to grab with 5 fingers in judo. As soon as I got home, I started Makiwara strikes. After I practiced it everyday for 3 months, I found my hands grabbing my opponent's dogi firmly with 5 fingers. I discovered many things only after I struck Makiwara. I had thought that those who are trained in judo have strong finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists. But, when I actually struck the Makiwara, my finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists all hurt numbingly. Such weak finger tips, elbow, wrists, and fists are useless in pulling the opponent or controlling the opponent using elbows or wrists. I therefore slammed these weak parts onto Makiwara and strengthened them in preparation for bouts. I struck Makiwara with knife hand, backhand, and thrust 4 fingers into a sand box. I did this 1000 times a day. In this way, I developed steel-like strong hands. Later on, I got interested in karate, and learned Shorinji-ryu (Note: today's Shotokan karate) under the guidance of Master Funakoshi for a little over 2 years._"

And I'm hardly a _traditional martial artist., _ though I do study traditional martial arts......anyway


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## wab25 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Oh common. This is typical obfuscation attempt by traditional martial artists. Judo does not have any striking for all intents and purposes.


For someone so concerned with 1 to 1 relationships between kata and technique... you should really learn more about Judo.
Classification of Techniques in Kodokan Judo | Judo Info


> All Judo techniques (_wazas_) are divided into the following groups:- *Nage-waza* (67 throwing techniques)
> – *Katame-waza* (29 grappling techniques)
> – *Atemi-waza* (22 striking techniques)The Nage-waza, Katame-waza and Atemi-waza are further divided into groups as follows:





> *Atemi-waza
> (striking techniques)*
> 
> 
> ...


The striking arts are in the actual Judo curriculum and kata... exactly as explained earlier.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

wab25 said:


> The striking arts are in the actual Judo curriculum and kata... exactly as explained earlier.



Newsflash. Judo Is a sport these days, which was the founders vision. The sport does not encompass striking. Good luck finding a school that spends time on striking.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> In his autobiography, _My Judo,_ (no longer in print, sadly) Kimura says that he used karate as another form of _tanren_, that he did it to strengthen his hands, and to thusly improve his judo.
> 
> And I'm hardly a _traditional martial artist., _ though I do study traditional martial arts......anyway



Why would he need that if Judo has striking?


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why would he need that if Judo has striking?



He explained pretty thouroughly exactly why _he thought_ he needed it.

Basically, though, he said he did it to improve his grip.




Acronym said:


> Newsflash. Judo Is a sport these days, which was the founders vision. The sport does not encompass striking. Good luck finding a school that spends time on striking.


Newsflash: I can drive to Albuquerque, and go to a judo dojo that teaches striking.

Or I can just walk out back to my barn.

I'm done here.


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## wab25 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Newsflash. Judo Is a sport these days, which was the founders vision. The sport does not encompass striking. Good luck finding a school that spends time on striking.


Newsflash. Judo lists specific kata for their strikes, both hand and feet, as part of their official curriculum. You were presented with video of Judo students training their strikes. Not sure what further evidence you need.


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2020)

Just musing, but it is an odd way to think.  That something does not exist or is not substantial unless if is verifiable via YouTube and it must be perceivable to lay people that don't train in the method.

Not starting a fight with anyone...


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> He explained pretty thouroughly exactly why _he thought_ he needed it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They aren't qualified to teach striking unless they've crosstrained.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Just musing, but it is an odd way to think.  That something does not exist or is not substantial unless if is verifiable via YouTube and it must be perceivable to lay people that don't train in the method.
> 
> Not starting a fight with anyone...



I suggest you research the history of Judo and the aim of its founder


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Just musing, but it is an odd way to think.  That something does not exist or is not substantial unless if is verifiable via YouTube and it must be perceivable to lay people that don't train in the method.
> 
> Not starting a fight with anyone...




Conversely, it's pretty ridiculous to constantly reject documented evidence, whether from youtube, or books.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Conversely, it's pretty ridiculous to constantly reject documented evidence, whether from youtube, or books.



I haven't rejected anything. Judo has striking in a few katas, which is largely irrelevant since it's now a grappling sport. If you open up judo schools that don't focus on the Olympics, you won't have a clients. It makes no sense. You also don't have anyone qualified to teach it, which is why Ronda Roussey looked like a lay person striking against someone who knew how to strike.


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I suggest you research the history of Judo and the aim of its founder


Heh.  I have trained in judo.  And aikido.  And karate.  I know a bit about the histories of all three along with the post WWII transformation of Japan.

As I said, it's odd that laypeople think YouTube is the gold standard for determining reality.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 30, 2020)

elder999 said:


> Conversely, it's pretty ridiculous to constantly reject documented evidence, whether from youtube, or books.


I can one-up you sir.  It is pretty ridiculous to try to engage in discussion with this fellow.


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I can one-up you sir.  It is pretty ridiculous to try to engage in discussion with this fellow.


 I agree.....consequently....



elder999 said:


> *
> I'm done here.*


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Heh.  I have trained in judo.  And aikido.  And karate.  I know a bit about the histories of all three along with the post WWII transformation of Japan.
> 
> As I said, it's odd that laypeople think YouTube is the gold standard for determining reality.



When did base anything off of Youtube? Striking is prohibited in sparring. What you have left is air guitar


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## dancingalone (Sep 30, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I can one-up you sir.  It is pretty ridiculous to try to engage in discussion with this fellow.



I had a friend with a son that was like that.  The son was on the autistic spectrum though high functioning.  But he had a hard time getting along with others because his brain just didn't process the same way people not on the spectrum do. 

Not saying that is what is happening here.  But OP seems determined that only what he can discern himself from reading and watching media on the internet is valuable or true.  And he becomes hostile easily.  It seems like a difficult way to experience the world.


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## Flying Crane (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I had a friend with a son that was like that.  The son was on the autistic spectrum though high functioning.  But he had a hard time getting along with others because his brain just didn't process the same way people not on the spectrum do.
> 
> Not saying that is what is happening here.  But OP seems determined that only what he can discern himself from reading and watching media on the internet is valuable or true.  And he becomes hostile easily.  It seems like a difficult way to experience the world.


Yes, I hadn’t considered that.  Good point.


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> I had a friend with a son that was like that.  The son was on the autistic spectrum though high functioning.  But he had a hard time getting along with others because his brain just didn't process the same way people not on the spectrum do.
> 
> Not saying that is what is happening here.  But OP seems determined that only what he can discern himself from reading and watching media on the internet is valuable or true.  And he becomes hostile easily.  It seems like a difficult way to experience the world.



Takes one to know one


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Yes, I hadn’t considered that.  Good point.



Why are you still here despite labelling me a turd? I reported it

Is this no longer the friendly martial arts forum?


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## Acronym (Sep 30, 2020)

nice to see how corrupt it is even at martial talk.  I've been banned for far lesser things.


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## elder999 (Sep 30, 2020)

Acronym said:


> nice to see how corrupt it is even at martial talk.  I've been banned for far lesser things.


Ok, buh-bye!
Take yer bunny and yer little red wagon with you!


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## Kung Fu Wang (Sep 30, 2020)

I have no idea what your guys are arguing about.

- Does Karate have sweep?
- Does Judo have punch?
- Does boxing have kick?
- Does TKD have throw?
- Does BJJ have knife fight?
- ...

Who cares? If you cross train, this will never be an issue.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why are you still here despite labelling me a turd? I reported it
> 
> Is this no longer the friendly martial arts forum?


I go where I will.  Members have the right to post anywhere in these forums.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 1, 2020)

Acronym said:


> nice to see how corrupt it is even at martial talk.  I've been banned for far lesser things.


Sounds like the Martialtalk community has shown tremendous patience with you.


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## Flying Crane (Oct 1, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have no idea what your guys are arguing about.
> 
> - Does Karate have sweep?
> - Does Judo have punch?
> ...


I guess I don’t understand why some people seem to feel that they need to have a strict definition of what a particular style is or is not, or what techniques may be found in it.  

There is no such standardization.  All that someone can say is what their own experience has been.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Oct 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> I guess I don’t understand why some people seem to feel that they need to have a strict definition of what a particular style is or is not, or what techniques may be found in it.
> 
> There is no such standardization.  All that someone can say is what their own experience has been.


Also I don't understand why one's training should be restricted by his style tournament rule. Sanda doesn't allow groin kick, but I train groin kick everyday.

Sport is the path. Combat is the goal.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

I don't do shotokan and I have never trained in a Ginchin style of Karate, but I do know katas that show sweeps. To the untrained eye, they can resemble kicks. Two of my students thought, in one of our katas, there was a front kick until I showed them the application and they learned that front kick, was actually a sweep.

Knowledge and proper training at that, is important.

When I here people talk about the lack of applications, it really surprised me. In our system we have 10 forms to black belt.

Pina 1-5
Sip Su
Nohai
Botsai
Umbe
Nifanchi (all 3 as one)



With these forms at least 75 applications must be known before you get your BB. You do not advance, if you do not know the bunkai for the form.

I have been doing these same forms and applications for at least 36 yrs. Although basic, they are the first step in understanding the kata. But, they are not set in stone in there delivery, it is the student, that determines the changes for whatever situation that arises.


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I don't do shotokan and I have never trained in a Ginchin style of Karate, but I do know katas that show sweeps. To the untrained eye, they can resemble kicks. Two of my students thought, in one of our katas, there was a front kick until I showed them the application and they learned that front kick, was actually a sweep.



Sip Su?  You do Tang Soo Do or some variant?  Arguably, you have some Gichin Funakoshi lineage though in a roundabout way.

But yes, I imagine we have similar approaches to kata applications.  It is the detail that matters.  People that don't train in the method can look at just the kata performance and say "it's not there."  And that is fine and all... but they are not seeing the full of what happens in the training within the dojo.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Sip Su?  You do Tang Soo Do or some variant?  Arguably, you have some Gichin Funakoshi lineage though in a roundabout way.
> 
> But yes, I imagine we have similar approaches to kata applications.  It is the detail that matters.  People that don't train in the method can look at just the kata performance and say "it's not there."  And that is fine and all... but they are not seeing the full of what happens in the training within the dojo.


Yes, it came down through Korea, but no not through the Gichin line, through the Toyama line a senior of Gichin according to Itosu's student records.

It's a common mistake though, the creator of Tang Soo Do, admittedly, learn from Gichins book.

My lineage is through the Kwon Bop Bu and the Kang Duk Won through  Byung In-Yoon, who trained with Toyama directly.


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## dancingalone (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Yes, it came down through Korea, but no not through the Gichin line, through the Toyama line a senior of Gichin according to Itosu's student records.
> 
> It's a common mistake though, the creator of Tang Soo Do, admittedly, learn from Gichins book.
> 
> My lineage is through the Kwon Bop Bu and the Kang Duk Won through  Byung In-Yoon, who trained with Toyama directly.



Cool.  I had some friends that trained with Kim Soo in Houston.  He's from the Kang Duk Won.  Do you still do the Chuan Fa forms like Escaping into the Mist, etc., ?


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

Speaking of kata, Is it just my school or is Bunkai non existent? How can they expect kata joint locks to be ingrained in your muscle memory if it's banned in sparring and never applied expect on thin air?

This is assuming that kata joint locks actually work, let's assume for argument sake that they do. Even if they do, you don't transfer it to muscle memory unless it's applied....


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

dancingalone said:


> Cool.  I had some friends that trained with Kim Soo in Houston.  He's from the Kang Duk Won.  Do you still do the Chuan Fa forms like Escaping into the Mist, etc., ?


Yes, he is the closet thing to a GM (if such a thing exist) and I have spoken with him through email a few times. As a matter of fact, he knew and trained with Dr. Norman Rha (also known as Rha Jong-nam) that brought Kang Duk Won to the west coast.

He was happy to learn that the line still existed...I did the research, when I was varifying my instructors lineage through Robert J Babich and the Kwon Bup (the name chosen by Robert J, after he chose not to join the Tae Kwon Do federation being formed at the time.) And really, after that it became more of an Americanized style of Karate.

Robert J was also an early BB of Don Buck. It is still a mystery as to why he moved from Kyokushin Karate to Kang Duk Won.

As for the kung fu fighting forms, the Jang Kwon and Dan Kwon, yes.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Speaking of kata, Is it just my school or is Bunkai non existent? How can they expect kata joint locks to be ingrained in your muscle memory if it's banned in sparring and never applied expect on thin air?
> 
> This is assuming that kata joint locks actually work, let's assume for argument sake that they do. Even if they do, you don't transfer it to muscle memory unless it's applied....



It is hard to do well and safely. And most styles don't have the proper grounding to understand how they work.

Bunkai won't really help you.

Short answer is learn to wrestle.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> It is hard to do well and safely. And most styles don't have the proper grounding to understand how they work.
> 
> Bunkai won't really help you.
> 
> Short answer is learn to wrestle.



Their argument is that joint locks in conjuction with striking to loosen them up do work. Still, if you never fight that way then you won't do it when push comes to shove.Even more illogical is Aikido which doesn't teach striking at all.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Why would he need that if Judo has striking?



OK. Every time you do a style or a rule set you create an environment where some things work really well and some do not. 

By changing the style or rule set you change what works well and what doesn't. This then forces you to engage in things that you might have otherwise overlooked.

So let's look at standing arm bars for example. 

So you may train standing arm bars in kata or bunkai. And certain elements will make those arm bars work. (Catching punches out of mid air or double beats on the arm and that sort of stuff)

Then you spar or fight and literally none of that works. And so you are forced to adopt changes.

Then you wrestle and you don't get to do arm bars at all. But you do engage in clinching, arm control and realistic timing.

Then you go back to sparring and suddenly realise that with good entries, good clinching and being able to break someone's structure. You might be able to actually get that arm bar you have been practising in kata.

Then technically you should change the kata to reflect reality.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Their argument is that joint locks in conjuction with striking to loosen them up do work. Still, if you never fight that way then you won't do it when push comes to shove.Even more illogical is Aikido which doesn't teach striking at all.



It is a very unhelpful argument from people who don't understand the concept very well. 

Striking does make opportunities available for grappling. But grappling makes opportunities available for striking. 

If you are to engage in both you need to understand both. 

Not that you literally can't win a grappling engagement until you have basically knocked the other guy out.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> I
> Not that you literally can't win a grappling engagement until you have basically knocked the other guy out.



With regards to small joint manipulation against an equally strong opponent, you probably have to loosen him up first with a strike. 

Juijitsu operates on a different principle of using leverage=your entire body. Karate katas operate on the assumption that you land a straight right, and then twist the persons arm. 

So I buy it, but to do it in practise is different.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> With regards to small joint manipulation against an equally strong opponent, you probably have to loosen him up first with a strike.
> 
> Juijitsu operates on a different principle of using leverage=your entire body. Karate katas operate on the assumption that you land a straight right, and then twist the persons arm.
> 
> So I buy it, but to do it in practise is different.



Yeah, not really.

You land a strike which creates an opening. Which let's you close off a section of your oponant. Which let's you gain positional dominance, which lets you control a limb or joint, which lets you perform your snazzy manipulation.

In a striking joint locking exchange. You will get punched five times before you crank an arm if you try to cut corners.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Bunkai won't really help you.


I would have to disagree with this, I have used them successfully myself, but you have to stay in the fight and understand the entering concept.
Most people believe that Karate is not a close quarter combat style, they couldn't be more wrong.

Bunkai, have saved  my butt more times than can be imagined.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> I would have to disagree with this, I have used them successfully myself, but you have to stay in the fight and understand the entering concept.
> Most people believe that Karate is not a close quarter combat style, they couldn't be more wrong.
> 
> Bunkai, have saved  my butt more times than can be imagined.



Ditto, untill I encountered people who understood the concepts of grappling. And then none of it worked. 

And I am talking months. As soon as someone understood the basics it throws years of Bunkai out the window.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> In a striking joint locking exchange. You will get punched five times before you crank an arm if you try to cut corners.



Depends entirely on how good the strike your threw was. If he just eats the punch, then you can forget about applying a joint lock. If he gets groggy, then you do have a split second to apply it.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

I would agree though that Karate is idealistic and beautiful, whereas real fighting is dirty and rushed.. 

Both sides have their arguments, The truth is probably in the middle... It might work, sometimes...


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> With regards to small joint manipulation against an equally strong opponent, you probably have to loosen him up first with a strike.


No, in order to use a small joint manipulation, you need to break the other guys structure and take his balance. It also helps to separate the joint you are manipulating from the body. Striking is one way to start this process, but there are other ways as well and striking is just the start.



Acronym said:


> Juijitsu operates on a different principle of using leverage=your entire body. Karate katas operate on the assumption that you land a straight right, and then twist the persons arm.


Not true. Karate katas operate on the same principle of using leverage and your entire body. If the kata has you landing a punch first and then twisting the arm, it has you using your entire body and leverage for the punch, and then it uses your entire body and leverage for the twist. And if you pay attention, there are details that happen between the punch and the twist, that break his structure and take his balance. Those katas also help you practice moving while keeping your own structure and balance.



Acronym said:


> So I buy it, but to do it in practise is different.


Even Funakoshi said that to do kata is one thing and to fight is another. Kata is a way to refine your techniques and to work on details. Sparring, rolling, randori... (full resistance training) is where you learn how to make it work. The idea has always been to use both. Take what you think you are learning in kata and try against full resistance. Fail. (you will) Then, figure out how to make it work against full resistance. Go back to the kata, focus on the details you needed to change to make it work against full resistance. Emphasize and train those details in the kata. Then go back to full resistance and evaluate. Are you better at it? Do you need more work on the same details? Is it time to work on other details? They both work together. Training should never be either or with kata and resistance. It should be yes and yes.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I would agree though that Karate is idealistic and beautiful, whereas real fighting is dirty and rushed..
> 
> Both sides have their arguments, The truth is probably in the middle... It might work, sometimes...



Not if you are good at fighting.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> Ditto, untill I encountered people who understood the concepts of grappling. And then none of it worked.
> 
> And I am talking months. As soon as someone understood the basics it throws years of Bunkai out the window.


No not really, it helps you to understand them more. Throw them out if you wish, but you should throw ground work out, when it's understood that you can basically pick them up, and slam them into the concrete, while the have some archaic lock on your arm.

It works both ways.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Not true. Karate katas operate on the same principle of using leverage and your entire body. If the kata has you landing a punch first and then twisting the arm, it has you using your entire body and leverage for the punch, and then it uses your entire body and leverage for the twist. .



Not so. The kata have you doing both things standing fairly square, you do sink into the arm twist ever so slightly but there is no full commitment. you twist and then immediately raise your center of gravity.back up. in the kata...


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> No not really, it helps you to understand them more. Throw them out if you wish, but you should throw ground work out, when it's understood that you can basically pick them up, and slam them into the concrete, while the have some archaic lock on your arm.
> 
> It works both ways.



You can't slam people if they understand how to do the lock. But this is regardless of the percentage success of the move and more the ability to develop the movement in to something you understand.

It is very rare you have bunkai drills that reflect reality. Because everything works in a drill. 

Now you still need to drill to understand what you are doing. But situational sparring is better because it is bone with more realistic timing. Bunkai should reflect situational sparring. But it rarely does. 
.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

This is primarly arm movement. If you are good enough to pull this off, then you don't need the grappling the first place


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> Not so. The kata have you doing both things standing fairly square, you do sink into the arm twist ever so slightly but there is no full commitment. you twist and then immediately raise your center of gravity.back up. in the kata...


This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

once again, arm movements as grappling maneuvers.. Try it on someone your size and strength...


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

wab25 said:


> This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.



I can't speak for his self defense curriculum. I can speak for the katas though, and none of them engage the entire body for the joint locking techniques.


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> You can't slam people if they understand how to do the lock. But this is regardless of the percentage success of the move and more the ability to develop the movement in to something you understand.
> 
> It is very rare you have bunkai drills that reflect reality. Because everything works in a drill.
> 
> ...


Your percentage of success, is mostly based on sport, where doing that technique, gives you, in most competitions, the safety net of that not being allowed. 

I agree, with you on the understanding the technique in order for it to work, which is why you say they don't, bunkai that is, you really do not understand them.

Situational sparring, I agree with...but you seem to think that doesn't happen.

How long did you train bunkai, and with situational sparring?


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

wab25 said:


> This has not been my experience with Karate. My Karate Sensei teaches full use of the body on the locks, throws and manipulations... as well as for the strikes. Same for the other Karate schools in the area that we train with. Maybe its your school that does not apply the body and leverage to these parts... in my opinion, they should.



There is a nuance here in that the locks require a lot of details to really be applying good body mechanics.






So here with the Russian two on one. You could think you are applying your full body or think you are operating efficiently but you are not.

And for arm bars that is the difference between success and failure.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> This is primarly arm movement.


You are primarily focused on the arm movement. There is a lot more going on, besides just his arms. His foot work is more important than his arm work. His body work is more important than his foot work.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I can speak for the katas though, and none of them engage the entire body for the joint locking techniques.


Again, that is not my experience with the katas. I have yet to find one that does not engage the entire body.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

wab25 said:


> Again, that is not my experience with the katas. I have yet to find one that does not engage the entire body.



I've just posted two, littered with arm grappling.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> There is a nuance here in that the locks require a lot of details to really be applying good body mechanics.


I agree. Thats why I said that randori, full resistance training is required. As are all kinds of other drills. Once you learn those nuanced details, you should study those details when you do your kata. Your kata should look different as you add in those details. As Funakoshi said, if all you ever do is kata, you will never learn to fight. But, I believe that if you learn to fight, kata can help you improve. Its not the only tool in the shed, but I have found it useful.


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## drop bear (Oct 2, 2020)

Graywalker said:


> Your percentage of success, is mostly based on sport, where doing that technique, gives you, in most competitions, the safety net of that not being allowed.
> 
> I agree, with you on the understanding the technique in order for it to work, which is why you say they don't, bunkai that is, you really do not understand them.
> 
> ...



OK. So. I arm locked people for a living for twenty years. 

I trained bunkai since I was about 17-18 I am now 46.

Zen du kai, Japanese jits, some RSBD, Chun, some karates here and there. All variations on that bunkai theme. Philippino systems do basically bunkai for days. 

And as I said it kind of worked.

Then I did MMA and got mauled by guys with nowhere near my technical proficiency. And after a few years of believing that just some guys were meaner or better. I eventually started changing my training to be more timing focused, more concept and more positional. And I started reining in the younger fitter MMA guys.

And I was having more success closing people down in the real world as well. 

So the sport literally reflected the street in my case.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I've just posted two, littered with arm grappling.


You have posted two. You have posted two, where you choose to focus entirely on what the arms are doing. As I pointed out before, there is a lot more going on in connection to those arm movements. The entire body is connected to and driving those arm movements. Sure, you can choose to ignore that part. You can do those kata arm movements without the body, if you want... your choice. But then you are leaving out the most important part.

Look, if you don't like kata, and don't find a use for it.... great. Maybe you should train an art that doesn't use that method. There are plenty of arts that train without kata. There are striking arts, grappling arts and arts containing both... with no kata in them. These may be better for you, so you don't spend so much time picking apart the art you are studying.


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## Acronym (Oct 2, 2020)

wab25 said:


> You have posted two. You have posted two, where you choose to focus entirely on what the arms are doing. As I pointed out before, there is a lot more going on in connection to those arm movements. The entire body is connected to and driving those arm movements. Sure, you can choose to ignore that part. You can do those kata arm movements without the body, if you want... your choice. But then you are leaving out the most important part.
> 
> Look, if you don't like kata, and don't find a use for it.... great. Maybe you should train an art that doesn't use that method. There are plenty of arts that train without kata. There are striking arts, grappling arts and arts containing both... with no kata in them. These may be better for you, so you don't spend so much time picking apart the art you are studying.



I did not say it was only arm movements, I said compared to BJJ and Judo, it's mostly arm movements.


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## wab25 (Oct 2, 2020)

Acronym said:


> I did not say it was only arm movements



Quick reminder... this is what you said:


Acronym said:


> This is primarly arm movement.





Acronym said:


> once again, arm movements as grappling maneuvers..



I do those kata and find that I use my entire body with those movements. I have tried them as grappling moves against people bigger and stronger than me and have been able to work them.

It may help me, as I come from a jujitsu background, been doing jujitsu for more than twice as long as I have been doing Karate and still train jujitsu. So, maybe I see and understand a few of the details that a straight Karate student wouldn't... or maybe I don't. But, I can say that practicing those kata has improved my jujitsu a lot. I have found use of them to improve my grappling. 

Again... why not just train an art that trains the way you want to train? Why train an art, that does things in a way you don't agree with? Your time would be better spent training an art that trains in the way you think is best... then you could spend all this energy trying to better understand and improve you art. Trying to pick apart the art you are studying seems to be a waste of time. First, you won't convince other people training in these arts to change. (we really have heard all your arguments before... and are still training) Second, if you really think this type of training is not great... then why are you wasting your time training this way?


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## Graywalker (Oct 2, 2020)

drop bear said:


> OK. So. I arm locked people for a living for twenty years.
> 
> I trained bunkai since I was about 17-18 I am now 46.
> 
> ...


Well hell everything kinda works. With this type of training, I am surprised that you think they don't work. I have sparred several MMA guys and really had no issues with using bunkai on them but that could be due to the yrs and use of them on the streets. 

I didn't perfect my skills through sport at all, this must be the difference. I believe I have fought people from just about all types of systems or styles and Karate, bunkai and those things associated with it, helped me survive every encounter...

Escrima, (I learned from my dad in the 6th grade) literally saved me from being stabbed in the heart, albeit I was stabbed in the arm, it was a bunkai technique that deflected the attackers knife towards a survivable area.

It is interesting to hear the various effectiveness of others training.


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## letsplaygames (Feb 26, 2021)

I cut my teeth on Ashi Barai waza..  I have to fight like hell not to do it.  Always taking note of what floor structure when I kumite. 

Most of the time NO it's not in play.  That said ... Karate's Ashi Barai is super practical.


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