# The ball of the foot is a lot stronger than I gave it credit for



## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

When I did Taekwondo as a kid, I learned the parts of your foot you use for various kicks.  It went something like this:

Ball of the foot - front kick
Heel - side kick, ax kick, back kick, spinning *heel *kick
Blade of the foot - side kick, crescent kick (inside-outside), back kick
Ridge of the foot - crescent kick (outside-inside)
Instep - roundhouse kick
However, I'm starting to learn the power of the ball of the foot.  My Master at my current school has corrected me several times on different kicks that I should be using the ball of my foot.  This has led to me successfully breaking boards that I was failing to with my old training.  Kicks I now do with the ball of the foot are:

Axe kick
Outside-inside crescent kick (still do inside-outside with the blade or heel)
*Hook *kick
I haven't applied it to the roundhouse kick like I've seen some suggest, as I think it's too easy to catch your toes that way.  I also haven't applied it to side kick or back kick (on purpose) because I feel the heel is more inline with the donkey-style kicks.  However, I've noticed that using the ball of the foot I have more reach and more strength.

I think the reason I used to treat the ball of the foot as weaker, is because of side kick and back kick.  In those kicks, the heel has the best line with your power direction.  (That's also why I think some people prefer to front snap kick with the heel).  This is also the case with the front push kick.

However, the heel isn't any more in-line with an ax kick or spinning hook kick than the heel is.  It's essentially a longer piece of the whip.  You're still striking with a bone, and a bone that's designed to be stood on.  You're still striking with the same motion, just using a different part of your foot. 

I used to think the ball of the foot was the equivalent of a slap, but now I've come to think of it more like a punch.  I've grown a much healthier respect for this part of the foot lately.


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## skyeisonfire (Mar 22, 2019)

As long as yor stretch is good and you can point those toes back to fully extend your leg then you can use the heel in most kicks.  I prefer to use my heels and I believe it reduces accidental toe jamming as well.  My .02 cents.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

skyeisonfire said:


> As long as yor stretch is good and you can point those toes back to fully extend your leg then you can use the heel in most kicks.  I prefer to use my heels and I believe it reduces accidental toe jamming as well.  My .02 cents.



For an axe kick or hook kick?  You would have to REALLY mess those up to jam your toes.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> For an axe kick or hook kick?  You would have to REALLY mess those up to jam your toes.



It would be quite impossible to jam your toes with those kicks.
On the other hand, you're not going to jam your toes in shoes, either. Training with the ball of the foot is to prevent toe injury while barefoot. You're extremely unlikely to be fighting barefoot, but if you are, your foot will automatically protect your toes (muscle memory, you know...). If you're in shoes, the shoe will protect your toes.
The extra reach from kicking toes/ball of the foot is absolutely worth it. Training front kicks with the heel is, I would say, generally a mistake.
As far as the roundhouse goes... the top of the foot is for sparring. The ball of the foot is for breaking.
Spinning hook kick is much the same. The ball of the foot is for sparring (and heavy bag work) and the heel is for fighting or breaking.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> It would be quite impossible to jam your toes with those kicks.
> On the other hand, you're not going to jam your toes in shoes, either. Training with the ball of the foot is to prevent toe injury while barefoot. You're extremely unlikely to be fighting barefoot, but if you are, your foot will automatically protect your toes (muscle memory, you know...). If you're in shoes, the shoe will protect your toes.
> The extra reach from kicking toes/ball of the foot is absolutely worth it. Training front kicks with the heel is, I would say, generally a mistake.
> As far as the roundhouse goes... the top of the foot is for sparring. The ball of the foot is for breaking.
> Spinning hook kick is much the same. The ball of the foot is for sparring (and heavy bag work) and the heel is for fighting or breaking.



I've had more success breaking with the spinning hook kick with the ball of the foot.  The heel has actually proved weaker to me, because I've got a smaller lever arm.  There is no real advantage to using the heel in that circumstance.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> It would be quite impossible to jam your toes with those kicks.
> On the other hand, you're not going to jam your toes in shoes, either. Training with the ball of the foot is to prevent toe injury while barefoot. You're extremely unlikely to be fighting barefoot, but if you are, your foot will automatically protect your toes (muscle memory, you know...). If you're in shoes, the shoe will protect your toes.
> The extra reach from kicking toes/ball of the foot is absolutely worth it. Training front kicks with the heel is, I would say, generally a mistake.
> As far as the roundhouse goes... the top of the foot is for sparring. The ball of the foot is for breaking.
> Spinning hook kick is much the same. The ball of the foot is for sparring (and heavy bag work) and the heel is for fighting or breaking.



I was thinking recently about how our kicks would change if we trained with our shoes on.

And not the TKD shoes, either, but actual shoes.


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## dvcochran (Mar 22, 2019)

I am not going to enter the argument too far. But think long and hard about this; When doing kicks with the heel the ankle joint is mostly or completely taken out of the equation making a more solid striking member. When kicking with the ball or toes you have the added reach of the length or your foot but the ankle is in play and will usually cushion some of the impact. If you are successfully doing more breaks with the ball of the foot it is either kick selection or something weird is going on.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've had more success breaking with the spinning hook kick with the ball of the foot.  The heel has actually proved weaker to me, because I've got a smaller lever arm.  There is no real advantage to using the heel in that circumstance.



You need to work on your technique.



skribs said:


> I was thinking recently about how our kicks would change if we trained with our shoes on.
> 
> And not the TKD shoes, either, but actual shoes.



Training in shoes is a good idea.


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## dvcochran (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You need to work on your technique.
> 
> 
> 
> Training in shoes is a good idea.


Agree with both your comments.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 22, 2019)

When you used the ball of your foot for front kick, did your opponent even use back fist to hit on your toes (since your toes were bending back)? I have seen some serious toes broken in class that way with bare foot training.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 22, 2019)

When you front kick with the ball of your foot, the downward block at 0.20, 0.27, 0.32 can hit on your bending backward toes if you don't have shoes on.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you used the ball of your foot for front kick, did your opponent even use back fist to hit on your toes (since your toes were bending back)? I have seen some serious toes broken in class that way with bare foot training.



You have to time it. Or yeah toe death.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> I've had more success breaking with the spinning hook kick with the ball of the foot.  The heel has actually proved weaker to me, because I've got a smaller lever arm.  There is no real advantage to using the heel in that circumstance.



You touch someone with the heel and you will mess them up.

I don't do breaking though. I just belt people.


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## drop bear (Mar 22, 2019)

skribs said:


> I was thinking recently about how our kicks would change if we trained with our shoes on.
> 
> And not the TKD shoes, either, but actual shoes.



Provided you don't kick with shoes and fall over. The difference isn't significant. 

So mabye you could say that you get an extra inch with a pointy toe. But you loose out on timing if you haven't been throwing pointy toe kicks.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You need to work on your technique.



You disagree with this, @skribs?
Sp you think your technique is perfect?

I assure you it's not. If the tiny difference in length makes that much difference, your technique can definitely  be improved.
But what do I know. I've only been doing TKD for 50 years.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> You disagree with this, @skribs?
> Sp you think your technique is perfect?
> 
> I assure you it's not. If the tiny difference in length makes that much difference, your technique can definitely  be improved.
> But what do I know. I've only been doing TKD for 50 years.



Sorry, I was on my phone and preferred to type my response on my computer.

The reason I disagreed with it is twofold:  1) you presented a different position from mine without explaining why, 2) you did not offer any actual advice.

*1) The debate
*
I have presented in this thread the reasons why I think the ball of the foot is stronger:

I've seen it succeed where the heel has failed
My Master says it's better
The technique I've practiced for years was replaced by this and this was more successful without that extra practice
I see no scientific reason why the heel would be stronger than the ball of the foot
In fact, regarding #3, this would suggest I *am *working on my technique, because I got critique and applied the critique.  I'm not saying my technique is perfect.  I'm saying "you need to work on your technique" does not seem like a valid reason why the heel is superior or preferable to the ball of the foot.

*2) The advice
*
Your advice was simply "you need to work on your technique."  There was no areas I may be going wrong, there was no how I can improve my technique.  Nothing along the lines of "the heel is stronger if you do X", or "it sounds like you're not doing Y, have you tried that?"

So instead of coming across as sage advice, it comes across as pretentious.

*So I ask you: back it up.*  Why is the heel better than the ball of the foot?  In what situations would the heel have an advantage?  And if my technique is the problem, what specifically should I look at fixing?

If you can convince me that I'm wrong I'll be happy to take down my disagrees.  But as it stands all you've done is put my technique down.


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## skribs (Mar 22, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Provided you don't kick with shoes and fall over. The difference isn't significant.
> 
> So mabye you could say that you get an extra inch with a pointy toe. But you loose out on timing if you haven't been throwing pointy toe kicks.



I don't think the difference in timing is going to be that noticeable.


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## drop bear (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I don't think the difference in timing is going to be that noticeable.



Between doing a kick you have practiced and one you haven't?


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## skyeisonfire (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> For an axe kick or hook kick?  You would have to REALLY mess those up to jam your toes.



I don't use those kicks anyways.  Lol


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you front kick with the ball of your foot, the downward block at 0.20, 0.27, 0.32 can hit on your bending backward toes if you don't have shoes on.


You have seen or done this successfully?


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

drop bear said:


> Provided you don't kick with shoes and fall over. The difference isn't significant.
> 
> So mabye you could say that you get an extra inch with a pointy toe. But you loose out on timing if you haven't been throwing pointy toe kicks.


The main difference is mobility (both good and bad, at the same time). Leather-soled shoes pivot like bare feet, but slip easier. Rubber-soled shoes pivot quite differently, but are much more stable. Beyond that, I've not found a big need to change things if the surface is reasonable, unless it's to take advantage of a part of the shoe (the hard heel of a dress shoe, for instance).


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Training front kicks with the heel is, I would say, generally a mistake.
> .


I will disagree with you on the front kick.  Thrusting with the heel is very effective.

Of course a front snap kick can be done with the ball of the foot or the instep, depending on the target.  

All three are effective when properly selected and applied.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I was thinking recently about how our kicks would change if we trained with our shoes on.
> 
> And not the TKD shoes, either, but actual shoes.


I always train in regular athletic shoes.  It does change how you kick.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

@Dirty Dog

You still have presented 0 evidence to back up your argument, other than professing the duration of your experience.  Please either tell me how I'm wrong or how I can improve, or else stop insulting me.

Don't just mark "disagree" if you can't provide some sort of argument other than "because I say".


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I will disagree with you on the front kick.  Thrusting with the heel is very effective.
> 
> Of course a front snap kick can be done with the ball of the foot or the instep, depending on the target.
> 
> All three are effective when properly selected and applied.



I differentiate between the front pushing kick and the front snap kick.  In most situations, I find that the heel requires a much higher kick to achieve the same result, and my experience has been that you usually trade power and speed for height.

The times I can see the heel being more effective than instep or ball-of-foot are on lower targets like the knee.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> I differentiate between the front pushing kick and the front snap kick.  In most situations, I find that the heel requires a much higher kick to achieve the same result, and my experience has been that you usually trade power and speed for height.
> 
> The times I can see the heel being more effective than instep or ball-of-foot are on lower targets like the knee.


People seem to want to define a front kick with the heel as a “push”.  I disagree.  The way we use it is definitely an impacting strike.  Try it on a heavy bag.

Proper target selection is important.  If you find it works best for you on low targets, then use it for that.  I am very comfortable using it up to a bit above waist level.  I am not a fan of high kicks, so that is a good level for me.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> You have seen or done this successfully?


Yes! Many time.

Many years ago, when I visited the "5 tigers club" in NYC, during one sparring session, one guy got broken toes from this kind blocking. Back then I liked to use CMA fighting stance (not boxing guard but one long arm and one short arm). I always used my back palm to block my opponent's front kick (or side kick). I then dropped my front arm elbow straight down onto his instep. Most of the time, my elbow dropping would hit on the instep. Sometime my elbow dropping would hit on the toes.

In CMA, this is called the metal strategy. You kick me. I try to hurt your kicking leg.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> People seem to want to define a front foot with the heel as a “push”.  I disagree.  The way we use it is definitely an impacting strike.  Try it on a heavy bag.
> 
> Proper target selection is important.  If you find it works best for you on low targets, then use it for that.  I am very comfortable using it up to a bit above waist level.  I am not a fan of high kicks, so that is a good level for me.



That might be why you see the heel as better, if your target is waist level and below.  In Taekwondo, we typically train kicks for chest-to-head level.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yes! Many time.
> 
> Many years ago, when I visited the "5 tigers club" in NYC, during one sparring session, one guy got broken toes from this kind blocking. Back then I liked to use CMA fighting stance (not boxing guard but one long arm and one short arm). I always used my back palm to block my opponent's front kick (or side kick). I then dropped my front arm elbow straight down onto his instep. Most of the time, my elbow dropping would hit on the instep. Sometime my elbow dropping would hit on the toes.
> 
> In CMA, this is called the metal strategy. You kick me. I try to hurt your kicking leg.


I think people tend to use the kicks poorly in sparring.  Often they square off and throw the kicks from a distance, without any setup.  They are easy to see coming, and easy to block or evade.  They don’t accomplish anything.

Instead, kicks should be used when an opening for them has been created.  It needs to be set up properly.  Get his hands engaged in something else, so he doesn’t see or cannot block the kick when it comes in.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> That might be why you see the heel as better, if your target is waist level and below.  In Taekwondo, we typically train kicks for chest-to-head level.


Yes, I am not talking about competition matches with a focus on high kicks.  I was responding to a comment that front kicks with the heel are generally a mistake.  I guess within certain contexts that can be true.  Within other contexts that is absolutely not true.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> @Dirty Dog
> 
> You still have presented 0 evidence to back up your argument, other than professing the duration of your experience.  Please either tell me how I'm wrong or how I can improve, or else stop insulting me.
> 
> Don't just mark "disagree" if you can't provide some sort of argument other than "because I say".



I can't really tell you what you're doing wrong without seeing your technique, now can I?
I know that you're doing something wrong, but if you want more than that, you'll need to post video of your spinning hook kick.
And that's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. If you're insulted, well, that's between you and your ego.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> But what do I know. I've only been doing TKD for 50 years.


May be you can help me on these TKD questions. Thanks in advance!

1. Do you think hook kick (or spin hook kick) with the ball of the foot (not with heel) can have enough knock down power?
2. Do TKD guys train front heel kick (not front toe push kick with the ball)?
3. Do TKD guys always like to kick on the concrete wall?
4. Is the following kicking drill commonly trained by all TKD guys?

- Stand on left leg, right front kick, right side kick, right back kick (no foot landing between kicks).
- Stand on right leg, left front kick, left side kick, left back kick.
- Repeat.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> kicks should be used when an opening for them has been created.  It needs to be set up properly.  Get his hands engaged in something else, so he doesn’t see or cannot block the kick when it comes in.


You (general YOU) can use punch to set up kick. You can also use kick to set up punch. Since you have to enter the kicking range before you can enter the punching range, most of the time, people use kick to set up punch.

When I kick, I want my opponent to drop his arm to block my kick. This way I will have 2 hands to deal with his 1 hand.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> You (general YOU) can use punch to set up kick. You can also use kick to set up punch. Since you have to enter the kicking range before you can enter the punching range, most of the time, people use kick to set up punch.
> 
> When I kick, I want my opponent to drop his arm to block my kick. This way I will have 2 hands to deal with his 1 hand.


Sure.  But you risk getting your toes broken in the same way you described.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Sure.  But you risk getting your toes broken in the same way you described.


Have you ever throw a punch, when you sense your opponent's arm is trying to block it, you pull your punch back, and let his blocking to hit into the thin air?

The moment that I can sense my opponent's intention to drop his arm, the moment my foot start to land on the ground, my fist will then move toward his face. 

I use kick to close the distance. I don't use kick to hurt my opponent. Also I alway have my shoes on.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Have you ever throw a punch, when you sense your opponent's arm is trying to block it, you pull your punch back, and let his blocking to hit into the thin air?
> 
> The moment that I can sense my opponent's intention to drop his arm, the moment my foot start to land on the ground, my fist will then move toward his face.
> 
> I use kick to close the distance. I don't use kick to hurt my opponent. Also I alway have my shoes on.


Fair enough, you are using as a setup.  My earlier observation is that a lot of people do not, or at least do not do it well.  They just hop around at distance, throwing kicks at each other that would be unlikely to land even if their opponent just stood there.  No setup, no commitment to making it land, no purpose in it, nothing accomplished.  In that case, they are easy to evade or block, or break the toes.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> In Taekwondo, we typically train kicks for chest-to-head level.


To use your foot to kick on your opponent's head is the same as to use your fist to punch on your opponent's foot. Both are against the human body natural design.


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## Gnarlie (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To use your foot to kick on your opponent's head is the same as to use your fist to punch on your opponent's foot. Both are against the human body natural design.


Depends where you put your opponent's head. 

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> May be you can help me on these TKD questions. Thanks in advance!
> 
> 1. Do you think hook kick (or spin hook kick) with the ball of the foot (not with heel) can have enough knock down power?



Define "enough"... it's possible to knock someone down (or out) with the ball of the foot. But given the movement of the ankle, it's pretty much inevitable that (done properly) the impact with the heel with be harder. Your reach is a little shorter, though.



> 2. Do TKD guys train front heel kick (not front toe push kick with the ball)?



This is trained for pushing, but not as a kick, in my experience.



> 3. Do TKD guys always like to kick on the concrete wall?



I don't know what you're asking.



> 4. Is the following kicking drill commonly trained by all TKD guys?
> 
> - Stand on left leg, right front kick, right side kick, right back kick (no foot landing between kicks).
> - Stand on right leg, left front kick, left side kick, left back kick.
> - Repeat.



There's probably not anything that is trained by ALL TKD schools, but it's certainly very common to train combos without touching the foot down between kicks. Not for beginners, in my experience. I'd expect a 7th geup to be starting to do this.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> To use your foot to kick on your opponent's head is the same as to use your fist to punch on your opponent's foot. Both are against the human body natural design.


Not nearly the same, actually. I can kick a head quickly, without drastic changes in stance. To reach down to a foot would require a drastic change in more than just stance. I'd rather punch the head than kick it, but I also know I can generate more power with my leg, and can reach that head in some cases where my hand wouldn't.


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## seasoned (Mar 23, 2019)

It depends on what art you're training in and what the focus of the training is geared toward. Street defense vs dojo/tournament techniques are very different in what is acceptable as in above or below the waist. With that said I have always liked the front kick with the ball of the foot if done with intent and target low stomach.  The higher you go with the front kick will have it's disadvantages using ball or heel. I prefer the front kick low with the heel and more for a street defense. So for me heel or ball depending on when and where.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I can't really tell you what you're doing wrong without seeing your technique, now can I?
> I know that you're doing something wrong, but if you want more than that, you'll need to post video of your spinning hook kick.
> And that's not an insult. It's a statement of fact. If you're insulted, well, that's between you and your ego.



Do you have any advice for me, then? Any questions for me that would help determine what I'm doing wrong?

Why do you say the heel is stronger? Or in what case would you opt for heel instead of thr ball of the foot?


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> I think people tend to use the kicks poorly in sparring.  Often they square off and throw the kicks from a distance, without any setup.  They are easy to see coming, and easy to block or evade.  They don’t accomplish anything.
> 
> Instead, kicks should be used when an opening for them has been created.  It needs to be set up properly.  Get his hands engaged in something else, so he doesn’t see or cannot block the kick when it comes in.


I can only half agree with this. Kicks are just as easily used *** the setup to create the opening.


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Yes! Many time.
> 
> Many years ago, when I visited the "5 tigers club" in NYC, during one sparring session, one guy got broken toes from this kind blocking. Back then I liked to use CMA fighting stance (not boxing guard but one long arm and one short arm). I always used my back palm to block my opponent's front kick (or side kick). I then dropped my front arm elbow straight down onto his instep. Most of the time, my elbow dropping would hit on the instep. Sometime my elbow dropping would hit on the toes.
> 
> In CMA, this is called the metal strategy. You kick me. I try to hurt your kicking leg.


I can buy toes getting jammed, it is common in TKD. But broken?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Why do you say the heel is stronger?


The heel is stronger but has shorter reach. The ball of the foot is not as strong but has longer reach.

Here is a simple test.

Put a concrete block on table vertically. When you try to break it (instead of make it to fly away) with your spin hook kick, try to break it with your heel and also with your ball of the foot. You will find out that it's easier to break with the heel.


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## dvcochran (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The heel is stronger but has shorter reach. The ball of the foot is not as strong but has longer reach.
> 
> Here is a simple test.
> 
> Put a concrete block on table vertically. When you try to break it (instead of make it to fly away) with your spin hook kick, try to break it with your heel and also with your ball of the foot. You will find out that it's easier to break with the heel.


Or, just walk. If you walk landing on the ball of the foot it will be a soft step (tip-toe). Walk landing only on the heels and it will be a jarring impact.


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## Flying Crane (Mar 23, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I can only half agree with this. Kicks are just as easily used *** the setup to create the opening.


Yeah they can be.  A lot of what I see, they don’t do it well.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 23, 2019)

There's a mitigating factor in the heel's power. I'd guess folks who've done TKD a while don't ever run into it as much in their kicks: flexibility. I can reach both low and high targets better, with more power, with the ball of my foot. Why? Because my hamstring is strung like a high E on a guitar, and pulling the calf tight (by pulling the foot back) only adds to this. I can kick at head height with the ball of the foot (or in a roundhouse), but I max out around sternum height (with a lot of lost power) if I use the heel. So, while the heel technically has more power (less cushioning in the mechanism to absorb some of the force), I always am able to generate more power with a front kick (I'm entirely unsure if that's the same term used in TKD) if I use the ball of the foot, unless the kick is near knee level.


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## skribs (Mar 23, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> The heel is stronger but has shorter reach. The ball of the foot is not as strong but has longer reach.
> 
> Here is a simple test.
> 
> Put a concrete block on table vertically. When you try to break it (instead of make it to fly away) with your spin hook kick, try to break it with your heel and also with your ball of the foot. You will find out that it's easier to break with the heel.



I've found it easier to break things with the ball of the foot.



dvcochran said:


> Or, just walk. If you walk landing on the ball of the foot it will be a soft step (tip-toe). Walk landing only on the heels and it will be a jarring impact.



A step is more similar to a side kick than an ax kick or hook kick.



gpseymour said:


> There's a mitigating factor in the heel's power. I'd guess folks who've done TKD a while don't ever run into it as much in their kicks: flexibility. I can reach both low and high targets better, with more power, with the ball of my foot. Why? Because my hamstring is strung like a high E on a guitar, and pulling the calf tight (by pulling the foot back) only adds to this. I can kick at head height with the ball of the foot (or in a roundhouse), but I max out around sternum height (with a lot of lost power) if I use the heel. So, while the heel technically has more power (less cushioning in the mechanism to absorb some of the force), I always am able to generate more power with a front kick (I'm entirely unsure if that's the same term used in TKD) if I use the ball of the foot, unless the kick is near knee level.



For front kicks, yes.  For the ax kick this is mitigated unless you are at the apex of the kick.  For the spinning hook kick, your foot should be parallel to the ground, so this is largely a non-issue.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 23, 2019)

skribs said:


> Do you have any advice for me, then? Any questions for me that would help determine what I'm doing wrong?



Without actually seeing what you're doing, all I can say is it's not right.



> Why do you say the heel is stronger? Or in what case would you opt for heel instead of thr ball of the foot?



One big solid knob of bone, vs a bunch of small bones. Which do YOU think is going to be stronger? Do you pound nails with a whisk? Or, you have two branches to choose from for a club. They have the same overall mass. But one is a single piece with a knob on the end. The other is skinny, with a bunch of branches and twigs. Which are you going to choose?
I use the ball of the foot for sparring, because it will not hit as hard if my control slips. I might possibly use it if I desperately needed an inch or so more reach (because I screwed up the distancing and timing) and was willing to give up power to just make contact.
I use the heel when I want to break the target.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Without actually seeing what you're doing, all I can say is it's not right.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I typically impact primarily with the bone from my big toe (similar to how you would punch with the first 2 knuckles of your hand).

Even if you hit with the whole ball of your foot, it's better than a whisk or a bunch of twigs, because it's held together by sinew and skin.  If you take a branch with a bunch of twigs and tie them together, it will be more effective than if left untamed.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> I typically impact primarily with the bone from my big toe (similar to how you would punch with the first 2 knuckles of your hand).
> 
> Even if you hit with the whole ball of your foot, it's better than a whisk or a bunch of twigs, because it's held together by sinew and skin.  If you take a branch with a bunch of twigs and tie them together, it will be more effective than if left untamed.



And do you _*really*_ think it's as effective as the club? Come on. 
There's a reason why clubs and maces and such are single pieces, not a bunch of twigs tied together.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> And do you _*really*_ think it's as effective as the club? Come on.
> There's a reason why clubs and maces and such are single pieces, not a bunch of twigs tied together.



So in this situation is my heelbone sticking out through the skin?  Take both of those clubs and wrap leather around them.  This will help concentrate the twigs (because you won't waste momentum on the twigs that don't strike) and it will provide padding and a wider surface area for the knobbed club.
Now factor in that if we're talking the same proportions, you've got a knobbed club that's 18" long, and a twigged club that's 24" long.  The size of the leather arm is a big part of why we use weapons in the first place (and why quarterstaff is a very good weapon).

Your post doesn't address that I typically impact with one bone (maybe 2) and not all 5 bones, when I am trying to use the ball of the foot to break.


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## drop bear (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> I typically impact primarily with the bone from my big toe (similar to how you would punch with the first 2 knuckles of your hand).
> 
> Even if you hit with the whole ball of your foot, it's better than a whisk or a bunch of twigs, because it's held together by sinew and skin.  If you take a branch with a bunch of twigs and tie them together, it will be more effective than if left untamed.



There is nowhere for your heel to go. So I put pressure on the direction of the kick the heel won't move. 

The ball requires you to hold the foot in place.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> For front kicks, yes. For the ax kick this is mitigated unless you are at the apex of the kick. For the spinning hook kick, your foot should be parallel to the ground, so this is largely a non-issue.


Well, I have an entirely different issue with the axe kick...namely, that I have no idea how to do one, so I'm not sure ball or heel matters much.


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

You can absolutely break things easily doing a hooking kick with the ball of the foot.

But in my experience, you will never be able to SMASH something like you could if you got the heel in there.
The difference is incomparable.


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> A step is more similar to a side kick than an ax kick or hook kick.


The physics regarding the ankle are the same. The effect of taking the ankle motion out of the equation is the point. Often in sparring I will use the ball of the foot on an Ax kick for distance and partner safety. That has nothing to do with power which would, of course, be the street application of an Ax kick.​


skribs said:


> For front kicks, yes. For the ax kick this is mitigated unless you are at the apex of the kick. For the spinning hook kick, your foot should be parallel to the ground, so this is largely a non-issue.


When I do a spinning hook kick in sparring or breaking, I use more of the back side of the heel where the Achilles attaches for the same reason, to factor out the ankle movement. In the past, I have done them pronated (which I think you are describing) and on a very hard hit it feel like I am jamming my ankle. I still hold to my above statement.


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2019)

Flying Crane said:


> Yeah they can be.  A lot of what I see, they don’t do it well.


Not sure what happened to my post. I did not intend to type anything "xxx". 
We see a lot of very different things. From what I see using a kick to set up an opening works very well.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

I





dvcochran said:


> Not sure what happened to my post. I did not intend to type anything "xxx".
> We see a lot of very different things. From what I see using a kick to set up an opening works very well.


 Think you added an extra "s" to the word "as" and it blocked it.

There was a forum for a first person shooter game that I got censored on because a word that is perfectly fine in the context of firearms or landfowl, is also slang for something else. It happens.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> When I do a spinning hook kick in sparring or breaking, I use more of the back side of the heel where the Achilles attaches for the same reason, to factor out the ankle movement. In the past, I have done them pronated (which I think you are describing) and on a very hard hit it feel like I am jamming my ankle. I still hold to my above statement.



"Where the Achilles attaches."

That just sounds like all kinds of recipe for disaster.


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## dvcochran (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> "Where the Achilles attaches."
> 
> That just sounds like all kinds of recipe for disaster.


Have never had a problem. I did not say ON the Achilles.


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## paitingman (Mar 24, 2019)

skribs said:


> "Where the Achilles attaches."
> 
> That just sounds like all kinds of recipe for disaster.


pretty sure they are just differentiating between the back portion of the heel (the part you can't stand on) and the base(?) of the heel (the part on the sole of your foot. the part you can stand on. the one you might side kick with)

Having said that, I've made contact with both parts I talked about above.
I personally almost always throw it with my toes/foot pointed. Sometimes I throw it to slap with my foot.
But with the foot pointed firmly, you still get a really firm impact with the sole of the heel. I can't say I've sensed much cushioning of the impact from my ankle when done this way.

I think the foot just has to be locked. Either locked forward or locked back sometime before you connect. This will give a real smash if you contact with the heel.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 24, 2019)

At this point, @skribs, you're just trying grasping at straws (or twigs...) to try to justify whatever you're doing wrong. There's no help for someone who does that, so you go right ahead and kick with your toes as much as you like. Best of luck to you.


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## skribs (Mar 24, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> At this point, @skribs, you're just trying grasping at straws (or twigs...) to try to justify whatever you're doing wrong. There's no help for someone who does that, so you go right ahead and kick with your toes as much as you like. Best of luck to you.



I'm having a good conversation with the others in this thread.  You're the only one I feel like I'm arguing with.  That's because the others seem to be discussing the technique and how I can improve, or why they find their technique superior to mine, and you seem to be discussing my inadequacies and how you're better than me.

This post got even worse.  Because once again you're telling my I'm wrong without saying anything of substance, but you've also put words into my mouth I did not say.  I never said I was kicking with my toes (at least for the kicks we're discussing ball-of-foot vs. heel).


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm having a good conversation with the others in this thread.  You're the only one I feel like I'm arguing with.  That's because the others seem to be discussing the technique and how I can improve, or why they find their technique superior to mine, and you seem to be discussing my inadequacies and how you're better than me.



I never said anything of the sort. I'd bet I'm probably worse at the spinning hook kick than you are. My feet are numb, thanks to chemotherapy induced neuropathies. So spinning kicks are comical. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the mechanics. And, once again, if you're hitting harder with the ball of the foot than the heel, you're doing something wrong. Exactly what you're doing wrong I can't say (and neither can anyone else), never having seen your kick (though I invite you, yet again, to post a video). Let us see your kick when you hit with the ball, and the heel.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2019)

I think what @Dirty Dog is saying is that if you are hitting harder with the ball of the foot than the heel (in certain kicks, anyway), then there's something better about your technique with the ball than the heel. Stated conversely, that means there's something "less right" about your form with the heel. It's even possible both are good, but the technique with the ball is just that much better that you're losing the advantage of the heel. Point is, if your technique with the heel were at the same level, the heel should hit harder.

I'll use my front kick as an example. It seems logical that the heel SHOULD hit harder at all but (maybe) the highest kicks. It doesn't, for me, because I have better technique with my ball-of-the-foot kick. In my case, it's mostly due to flexibility issues (and partly due to the fact that I practice the heel kick less, because it's less useful, because I practice it less....).


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> I never said anything of the sort. I'd bet I'm probably worse at the spinning hook kick than you are. My feet are numb, thanks to chemotherapy induced neuropathies. So spinning kicks are comical. But that doesn't mean I don't understand the mechanics. And, once again, if you're hitting harder with the ball of the foot than the heel, you're doing something wrong. Exactly what you're doing wrong I can't say (and neither can anyone else), never having seen your kick (though I invite you, yet again, to post a video). Let us see your kick when you hit with the ball, and the heel.



That's how your posts have come across to me.  That since you and I have a different opinion, I should just accept that I'm right and you're wrong, and that I should just shut up because you've put your foot down on what the facts are and I need to accept it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 25, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think what @Dirty Dog is saying is that if you are hitting harder with the ball of the foot than the heel (in certain kicks, anyway), then there's something better about your technique with the ball than the heel. Stated conversely, that means there's something "less right" about your form with the heel. It's even possible both are good, but the technique with the ball is just that much better that you're losing the advantage of the heel. Point is, if your technique with the heel were at the same level, the heel should hit harder.
> 
> I'll use my front kick as an example. It seems logical that the heel SHOULD hit harder at all but (maybe) the highest kicks. It doesn't, for me, because I have better technique with my ball-of-the-foot kick. In my case, it's mostly due to flexibility issues (and partly due to the fact that I practice the heel kick less, because it's less useful, because I practice it less....).



In an attempt to clear the air, let's talk about all these kick being performed bare footed. I will try to go from the bottom to the top of the body as much as possible. 

A foot stomp is more effective using the heel vs. the ball of the foot.
Being a very low target, the ankle has to be kicked with the ball or top of the foot or heel using a spinning kick. 
A front kick to the knee has to use the heel with the foot rotated outward. A barefoot kick to the kneecap using the ball of the foot may sting a little but unless the knee is fully extended I do not think it could do very much damage. I know this bullet will create an argument for angle of attack that, while very valid, I am trying to avoid for this post.  
A roundhouse to the knee is most effective with the ball of the foot.
A side kick or any type of spinning kick to the knee is most powerful and effective using the heel (please do not go down the road of sweeps as this will again muddy the water). 
The same applies to any kick I can think of as we go up the body that strikes *hard* targets.
A top of the foot roundhouse kick can separate thigh muscle. Happened to me. I think Thai kickers mostly use the top of the foot with their roundhouse kicks. I do not know if is possible to break the femur with the top of the foot.
A ball of the foot roundhouse kick will break ribs even wearing a hogu. I have given and received broken ribs this way. If you can develop the power I am certain the same is true for a front kick.
A front or roundhouse kick to the solar-plexus is most effective with the ball of the foot. Being a soft target the penetration advantage using the ball makes it more effective. The same is true for the neck, a soft target.
A roundhouse kick to the "off button" on the jaw or to the temple is most effective with the ball of the foot. However, I have seen people knocked out with the top of the foot roundhouse kicks with pads on. I have knocked out a person with a front kick under the chin using the ball of the foot.
An Ax kick with the heel is a very effective collar bone breaker. It know that it works. 
Inside and outside crescents speak for themselves. Spinning or otherwise. 
A side or hook kick should *Always* use the heel, regardless of kick orientation.
Need and intent is what drives "part of the foot" selection mostly. Hard targets, usually heel. Soft target usually ball. I use the ball or top of the foot if I need the extra reach. I use the ball or top of the foot for light contact sparring. It is my choice if I need to ratchet up the contact level. There is no absolute answer to the *when* and *why* variables of a kick. They are, variables. That is a big part of the learning that comes with time in the dojo/dojang.
Now, coming full circle to the Op @skribs query. A very large part of breaking comes down to applied common sense, something that seems to be lacking. 
Let's take a 2" cap block setting horizontally on two supports. If I strike the block with an member that is articulated by a moveable joint, it will be harder to break. If I strike the block with a solid member made of the exact same material, length and strength, it will take less momentum and energy to break the block. IF the articulated member is sturdy enough it can break the block, however more physics have to be considered. It is common sense that using the *HEEL* of the foot is more effective for hard targets, like ribs, collar bone, jaw, temple, etc... It is common sense that the *BALL* of the foot gives the striker options and can make debilitating impact. It is common sense that all these questions should and will be answered with enough time spent in practice. It is common sense that the answers will be slightly different for each person. 

A spinning hook kick with the BALL of the foot makes no sense unless you are trying to SOFTEN the impact.
I know I am speaking in absolutes and that is always a formula for rebuttal.


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> In an attempt to clear the air, let's talk about all these kick being performed bare footed. I will try to go from the bottom to the top of the body as much as possible.
> 
> A foot stomp is more effective using the heel vs. the ball of the foot.
> Being a very low target, the ankle has to be kicked with the ball or top of the foot or heel using a spinning kick.
> ...



The piece I disagree with is that you should never use the ball of the foot for a hook kick.  Even if you are on the side that the heel is stronger, the ball of the foot at least has some advantages in reach.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> A top of the foot roundhouse kick can separate thigh muscle. Happened to me. I think Thai kickers mostly use the top of the foot with their roundhouse kicks. I do not know if is possible to break the femur with the top of the foot.


By default, the Muay Thai roundhouse kick uses the shin as the striking surface. I'd say this has more damage potential than either the instep or ball of the foot. Usually if you see a MT kicker using the instep it's because they misjudged the distance, the opponent backed away, or sometimes for high kicks if they aren't tall enough to reach the opponent's head with their shin.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 25, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> ...Usually if you see a MT kicker using the instep it's because they misjudged the distance, the opponent backed away, or sometimes for high kicks if they aren't tall enough to reach the opponent's head with their shin.



I would apply the same line of thinking to a hook kick using the ball of the foot. 


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> [*]A top of the foot roundhouse kick can separate thigh muscle. Happened to me. I think Thai kickers mostly use the top of the foot with their roundhouse kicks. I do not know if is possible to break the femur with the top of the foot.
> [*]A ball of the foot roundhouse kick will break ribs even wearing a hogu. I have given and received broken ribs this way. If you can develop the power I am certain the same is true for a front kick.



An instep round kick can also break ribs through a hogu. I wouldn’t call it common, but I have personally done this to an opponent in competition (according to said opponent). 


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> By default, the Muay Thai roundhouse kick uses the shin as the striking surface. I'd say this has more damage potential than either the instep or ball of the foot. Usually if you see a MT kicker using the instep it's because they misjudged the distance, the opponent backed away, or sometimes for high kicks if they aren't tall enough to reach the opponent's head with their shin.



Would a MT kick use the foot pointed towards the target (to provide a harder structure to strike with) or away (to proved better safety for your toes if you do end up hitting with your foot)?


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I would apply the same line of thinking to a hook kick using the ball of the foot.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



If you're hitting with the back of the heel, then the ball of the foot isn't really in line with the target.


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## Tony Dismukes (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> Would a MT kick use the foot pointed towards the target (to provide a harder structure to strike with) or away (to proved better safety for your toes if you do end up hitting with your foot)?


Normally you point your toes as if you were going to hit with your instep.


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> Normally you point your toes as if you were going to hit with your instep.



We train our kicks this way.  When we're kicking on a standing bag or a BOB target, my Master expects us to hit with our ankle or shin.  However, he says this is because your opponent will typically move back when you kick, so if you aim with your shin, you'll probably hit with your instep.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you're hitting with the back of the heel, then the ball of the foot isn't really in line with the target.



I don’t use the back of the heal. I’ve accidentally banged the back of my heal into too many stair risers. 


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 25, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> By default, the Muay Thai roundhouse kick uses the shin as the striking surface. I'd say this has more damage potential than either the instep or ball of the foot. Usually if you see a MT kicker using the instep it's because they misjudged the distance, the opponent backed away, or sometimes for high kicks if they aren't tall enough to reach the opponent's head with their shin.


Agreed. I was taught a round kick using the instep, and I've been working to convert it to a MT-style shin kick. I have trouble delivering much power with the instep without risking stressing the ankle if I misjudge the distance (which would put me out near the toes).

I've never learned to do a roundhouse with the ball of the foot. I couldn't learn one now because of my toes. But that aside, the mechanics of it seem off to me - it seems like a distinctly different kick...maybe only because I don't have any experience with it.


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## dvcochran (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> The piece I disagree with is that you should never use the ball of the foot for a hook kick.  Even if you are on the side that the heel is stronger, the ball of the foot at least has some advantages in reach.


I will stand on my statement. Unless you are intentionally trying to soften the blow it is taking away effectiveness from the kicks impact. I believe I mentioned the reach advantage.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2019)

Tony Dismukes said:


> By default, the Muay Thai roundhouse kick uses the shin as the striking surface. I'd say this has more damage potential than either the instep or ball of the foot. Usually if you see a MT kicker using the instep it's because they misjudged the distance, the opponent backed away, or sometimes for high kicks if they aren't tall enough to reach the opponent's head with their shin.



I wouldn't want the top of my foot checked too often.


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## drop bear (Mar 25, 2019)

skribs said:


> The piece I disagree with is that you should never use the ball of the foot for a hook kick.  Even if you are on the side that the heel is stronger, the ball of the foot at least has some advantages in reach.



That is definitely a factor. Hitting with the ball is better than missing with the heel.

And you can throw it in sparring. So you can get better at hitting stuff with it.

Accuracy is super important when throwing head kicks. The leg is a huge mass you will probably hurt a guy regardless of what part of the foot you hit with.

Andy hug with the axe.






He seems to tweak his foot to hit. So heel if he can but does a bit of a toe slap if he needs to make that extra inch.


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## skribs (Mar 25, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I will stand on my statement. Unless you are intentionally trying to soften the blow it is taking away effectiveness from the kicks impact. I believe I mentioned the reach advantage.



The post I quoted said you should NEVER do it.  At least at one point.


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## dvcochran (Mar 26, 2019)

skribs said:


> The post I quoted said you should NEVER do it.  At least at one point.


I went through the whole post and did not see "NEVER" anywhere. I did see a LOT of people trying to counsel you by saying  "never" using the ball of the foot on a hook kick. I don't know what you are looking for unless it is a sliver of a sleazy way to say you are right and everyone else is wrong. Hey, that sounds just like a liberal!


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## dvcochran (Mar 26, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I wouldn't want the top of my foot checked too often.


I happens in Olympic TKD sparring a lot. You can condition the instep to a degree like any other part of the body. A pseudo striking defense that is often used is to hold your arms tight to the body when a body kick is coming at you so you can dig your elbow into the instep. Absolutely sucks when you are on the receiving end.


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## skribs (Mar 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I happens in Olympic TKD sparring a lot. You can condition the instep to a degree like any other part of the body. A pseudo striking defense that is often used is to hold your arms tight to the body when a body kick is coming at you so you can dig your elbow into the instep. Absolutely sucks when you are on the receiving end.



I also palm strike to the instep a lot.


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## skribs (Mar 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I went through the whole post and did not see "NEVER" anywhere. I did see a LOT of people trying to counsel you by saying  "never" using the ball of the foot on a hook kick. I don't know what you are looking for unless it is a sliver of a sleazy way to say you are right and everyone else is wrong. Hey, that sounds just like a liberal!



Sorry, you said "ALWAYS".  Your last bullet point:
"A side or hook kick should *Always* use the heel, regardless of kick orientation."

But "always do X" means "never do Y"...


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## dvcochran (Mar 26, 2019)

skribs said:


> I also palm strike to the instep a lot.


For a soft block? It takes time and conditioning but a knife hand block is much more effective for a hand block. They will think before kicking if you do it correctly and enough.


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## skribs (Mar 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> For a soft block? It takes time and conditioning but a knife hand block is much more effective for a hand block. They will think before kicking if you do it correctly and enough.



What do you mean by "soft block"?  I'm striking their foot.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 26, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> For a soft block? It takes time and conditioning but a knife hand block is much more effective for a hand block. They will think before kicking if you do it correctly and enough.



This is a bit off topic, but I don’t like open hand blocks if kicks are coming in with force. It’s so easy to mess up your fingers if your timing is even a little off. 


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## paitingman (Mar 26, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> This is a bit off topic, but I don’t like open hand blocks if kicks are coming in with force. It’s so easy to mess up your fingers if your timing is even a little off.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


True. I've seen many jammed fingers and hurt wrists.

It might be something cool to train though.


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## JR 137 (Mar 26, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Agreed. I was taught a round kick using the instep, and I've been working to convert it to a MT-style shin kick. I have trouble delivering much power with the instep without risking stressing the ankle if I misjudge the distance (which would put me out near the toes).
> 
> I've never learned to do a roundhouse with the ball of the foot. I couldn't learn one now because of my toes. But that aside, the mechanics of it seem off to me - it seems like a distinctly different kick...maybe only because I don't have any experience with it.


I’ve done the ball of the foot roundhouse to a bag many times. It always felt awkward. Probably because I’m used to using the shin with toes pointed like an instep kick. The angle it comes in at is different, targets are different, etc.

I’m not a big roundhouse guy. I target the ribs and the outside of the legs with it. The shin at those targets just feels right and natural to me. Ball of the foot feels like I’m forcing something and where I throw it from (in relation to my opponent) isn’t the same. 

Going from from instep to shin shouldn’t be a difficult transition at all. Just get a few inches closer when throwing the kick. I use the shin for everything but the head. Simply because my shin isn’t going to reach 99% of the time. But let’s be serious - my instep barely reaches either if it reaches at all.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 26, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> I don’t like open hand blocks if kicks are coming in with force. It’s so easy to mess up your fingers if your timing is even a little off.


Should you block a kick with open hand, or close fist?

To block a kick with close fist -

PRO: You won't hurt your fingers.
CON: Your block is just a block, no more and no less.

To block a kick with open hand (use your wrist as a hook) -

PRO: You can catch your opponent's kicking leg. You can also pull yourself into your opponent.
CON: Your my hurt your fingers.

The same logic also apply to block a punch. When you block a punch with

- close fist, a block is just a block.
- open hand, a block is a block followed by a pull.


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## Jaeimseu (Mar 26, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Should you block a kick with open hand, or close fist?
> 
> To block a kick with close fist -
> 
> ...



I’d far rather close distance if I want to “grab” a kick. Moving inside of the power arc and either under hooking or wrapping a round kick. I might grab a front or side kick thrown from the wrong distance with my hand, but grabbing at kicks is a good way to hurt your hand or leave your face open for a kick if you miss or guess wrong. 


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

Jaeimseu said:


> This is a bit off topic, but I don’t like open hand blocks if kicks are coming in with force. It’s so easy to mess up your fingers if your timing is even a little off.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk



I do them reflexively.  It's not something I ever trained or drilled, and honestly it's something I sometimes try not to do.  I've never *not *hit the instep with my palm.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> I do them reflexively.  It's not something I ever trained or drilled, and honestly it's something I sometimes try not to do.  I've never *not *hit the instep with my palm.



You can jam fingers doing this, but it's still a good block. Injuries happen. I broke my hand doing a block with a closed fist...
The palm heel block is specifically trained in both the Palgwae and Taegeuk forms, so it's obviously part of the system.
And as has been mentioned, open hand techniques are slightly easier to transition into grabs.
Personally, I do a lot of open hand blocks. I've jammed a finger occasionally over thew decades, but not badly enough to stop me from continuing. Train it, and use it, is my opinion.


----------



## Martial D (Mar 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Well, I have an entirely different issue with the axe kick...namely, that I have no idea how to do one, so I'm not sure ball or heel matters much.


It's pretty much an inside to outside crescent with emphasis on the down force rather than the lateral swing. It's actually a landable kick because the timing is weird. The strike comes a beat late.

It definitely hurts more with the back of the heel, but it's also easier easier to get caught throwing it that way.


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## JR 137 (Mar 27, 2019)

Does anyone ever get the sense that we, as MAists, overthink a bit too much? Which part of the foot to hit with? Which way to block? Which knuckles during a punch? Et al. 

I have a hard enough time just making contact and not getting hit. Maybe I should start getting simpler.


----------



## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Does anyone ever get the sense that we, as MAists, overthink a bit too much? Which part of the foot to hit with? Which way to block? Which knuckles during a punch? Et al.
> 
> I have a hard enough time just making contact and not getting hit. Maybe I should start getting simpler.



Doctors go through lectures and have practical training.  Some doctors go on to treat people, others go on to research medicine further and develop better practices, new procedures, and better ways of doing things.

When I'm playing video games, I will do research on what others thing the best build for my class is, I'll run my own spreadsheets, and I'll test things out, before applying them.

I think the same applies to martial arts.  You listen to your master or instructor, you ask questions, you play around with things to see what works best.  Other times you drill to hit stuff, or to keep from being hit by stuff.


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## dvcochran (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> I do them reflexively.  It's not something I ever trained or drilled, and honestly it's something I sometimes try not to do.  I've never *not *hit the instep with my palm.


Then you are not sparring often enough or hard enough. It  w*ill* happen.


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## dvcochran (Mar 27, 2019)

Martial D said:


> It's pretty much an inside to outside crescent with emphasis on the down force rather than the lateral swing. It's actually a landable kick because the timing is weird. The strike comes a beat late.
> 
> It definitely hurts more with the back of the heel, but it's also easier easier to get caught throwing it that way.



An Ax kick can have several entries. A classic Ax kick is on a straight line like a front kick with the same chamber. Instead of continuing with the power upward, it is changed to out and downward using the hips. If you need to change the angle, the same downward strike can be performed with an inside OR outside crescent entry. I see it occasionally performed as a spinning kick but I think you have to be lightening fast to pull it off effectively. Maybe if s setup is used and you get them back on their heels.


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## dvcochran (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> Doctors go through lectures and have practical training.  Some doctors go on to treat people, others go on to research medicine further and develop better practices, new procedures, and better ways of doing things.
> 
> When I'm playing video games, I will do research on what others thing the best build for my class is, I'll run my own spreadsheets, and I'll test things out, before applying them.
> 
> I think the same applies to martial arts.  You listen to your master or instructor, you ask questions, you play around with things to see what works best.  Other times you drill to hit stuff, or to keep from being hit by stuff.


Building spreadsheets before playing video games. Just..., wow. I thought the idea was to have fun.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> Doctors go through lectures and have practical training.  Some doctors go on to treat people, others go on to research medicine further and develop better practices, new procedures, and better ways of doing things.
> 
> When I'm playing video games, I will do research on what others thing the best build for my class is, I'll run my own spreadsheets, and I'll test things out, before applying them.
> 
> I think the same applies to martial arts.  You listen to your master or instructor, you ask questions, you play around with things to see what works best.  Other times you drill to hit stuff, or to keep from being hit by stuff.


Of course you (general you) should try stuff out during sparring. If you don’t, you’ll get stuck in the same instinctual mindset and do the same basic instinctual stuff over and over. You’ll never progress.

If you can actually perfectly land a hook kick with the ball of your foot instead of the heel or vice versa every time, or anything else for that matter, then you’re sparring with the wrong people. I don’t get hung up on what specific part of my body lands where. Ball of the foot vs heel isn’t very relevant to me so long as I landed it and they wouldn’t have gotten up if it was an actual situation. 

I think sometimes we get too hung up on minor details rather than just actually going at it. At some point the mentality has to be “just hit the damn thing.” That’s my point.


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Building spreadsheets before playing video games. Just..., wow. I thought the idea was to have fun.



That *is *fun.

In fact, it's my favorite part, to see what's on the spreadsheet prove true.

Or when I learn that I was horribly wrong and I need a new spreadsheet.  Then it's even more fun!


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Of course you (general you) should try stuff out during sparring. If you don’t, you’ll get stuck in the same instinctual mindset and do the same basic instinctual stuff over and over. You’ll never progress.
> 
> If you can actually perfectly land a hook kick with the ball of your foot instead of the heel or vice versa every time, or anything else for that matter, then you’re sparring with the wrong people. I don’t get hung up on what specific part of my body lands where. Ball of the foot vs heel isn’t very relevant to me so long as I landed it and they wouldn’t have gotten up if it was an actual situation.
> 
> I think sometimes we get too hung up on minor details rather than just actually going at it. At some point the mentality has to be “just hit the damn thing.” That’s my point.



I have a lot of opportunity to think about it on the job, and I'm at the dojang for 3-5 hours a day, 6 days a week.  I have plenty of time to do both thinking on the minor details, and "hitting the damn thing."


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## Martial D (Mar 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> An Ax kick can have several entries. A classic Ax kick is on a straight line like a front kick with the same chamber. Instead of continuing with the power upward, it is changed to out and downward using the hips. If you need to change the angle, the same downward strike can be performed with an inside OR outside crescent entry. I see it occasionally performed as a spinning kick but I think you have to be lightening fast to pull it off effectively. Maybe if s setup is used and you get them back on their heels.


Sure, you can also enter outside in, but it's going to get caught and you'll get dumped on your head.

At least in a fighting/MMA/Muai Thai context.

I agree that it is not the best entry technique, but as a third or fourth it's totally landable. I wouldn't call it a go to but I land them in sparring sometimes.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 27, 2019)

Martial D said:


> It's pretty much an inside to outside crescent with emphasis on the down force rather than the lateral swing. It's actually a landable kick because the timing is weird. The strike comes a beat late.
> 
> It definitely hurts more with the back of the heel, but it's also easier easier to get caught throwing it that way.



Axe kick can be thrown inside to outside, outside to inside, or straight.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2019)

When you throw axe kick, do you worry about that your opponent may

- lift your leg over his head and throw you backward?
- kick your groin?
- sweep/hook your standing leg?
- ...

It seems to me that the risk you may take is far greater than the reward that you may obtain. All high kicks has the same issue if your opponent charges in and "runs you down".


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## JR 137 (Mar 27, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw axe kick, do you worry about that your opponent may
> 
> - lift your leg over his head and throw you backward?
> - kick your groin?
> ...


Everything has its risks. Pick your poison.


----------



## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

Dirty Dog said:


> Axe kick can be thrown inside to outside, outside to inside, or straight.



I only recently discovered the straight ax kick.  I knew of the straight stretch kick, and of the outside-down and inside-down kicks, but only recently learned of the straight ax kick.


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw axe kick, do you worry about that your opponent may
> 
> - lift your leg over his head and throw you backward?
> - kick your groin?
> ...



In Taekwondo, I'm not too worried about it, because that move is illegal (and the type of foul that WILL be called because it is quite an egregious break in the rules).

However, when we're not using WT rules, I'm not worried about it, either.  It's very hard to get me down with a single leg.  I just bounce with your flow until you give up or I can counter.  From that position, I've got 2 hands free, you've got one or none, depending on how I'm grabbed.  It's very easy to throw punching combos to the head (I even pull with my leg to add strength to it).  You can also purposefully drop your other leg behind them and scissor-kick for the take-down.

It's not a position I want to be in, but it's not a position I'm afraid of.  

This video in particular it looks like he's trying a technique he's not good at, and he over-reached with it.  The strike is clumsily executed, from how slow he is to execute the kick, to how he looks twisted and off-balance already when he uses it.


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Everything has its risks. Pick your poison.



I think pretty much every move has some sort of counter to it.  @Kung Fu Wang has lots of videos where Ability Y counters Ability X.  But this always assumes that the other fighter knows Ability Y, and always ignores the possibility of Ability Z, which counters Y.

Not that there's anything wrong with these discussions.  It makes sure you're aware of Y if you use X, it makes sure you know Y for if X is used on you, and it makes you think about what Z should be (if you don't know it already).


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## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> It makes sure you're aware of Y if you use X, it makes sure you know Y for if X is used on you, and it makes you think about what Z should be (if you don't know it already).


Of you train axe kick, you also need to train

- counters to axe kick.
- counters to those counters.

Unfortunately when your opponent lifts your leg over his shoulder, there will be no counters (may be backward flip).


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## skribs (Mar 27, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Of you train axe kick, you also need to train
> 
> - counters to axe kick.
> - counters to those counters.
> ...



What you are saying is false.  I've been in that position loads of times and my opponent has been more compromised than I have.


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## Dirty Dog (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> I only recently discovered the straight ax kick.  I knew of the straight stretch kick, and of the outside-down and inside-down kicks, but only recently learned of the straight ax kick.



When I say straight, I mean straight up the middle, not with a straight leg. It's mostly like throwing a high front snap kick and then pulling the foot down. You could possibly throw it with the leg straight, but most likely it's going to hit the target on the way UP instead of down. If the target was advancing, you could maybe do it totally straight legged, but the timing would be tricky.


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## Buka (Mar 27, 2019)

A lot of guys I know have terrific hook kicks. The best hook kick I've ever seen is Wallace's. Or _didn't_ see as it smacked me upside the head too many times to count. And when I say "best" I mean the ability to hit with it against resisting opponents who actually know how to fight. One thing Wallace always used to say was _"Next time you teach a first week beginner a side kick, watch it carefully, it will be a perfect hook kick._" He was referring to how it's not pulled straight back but rather bends/snaps at the knee at the end of the kick. And how it goes out to target kind of straight, rather than in a looping arc.

Ball of the foot, heel, whatever, your choice. They're different in range, timing, position, and how much they tire you if you're throwing a couple hundred of them in training, different in a lot of ways, all of which you'll learn as you become a real kicker. As for power, you can knock out people with either, but you have to learn to land the suckers first.  Actually landing the kick without it getting shoved up your keister or getting thrown to the ground should be your first and last priority. You have to work that puppy hard. And they are a close in kick, not a far away kick. Once you can throw it in close it is soooo difficult for your opponent to see coming.

But, man, when you develop a really good hook kick it's one of the most enjoyable things you'll find in striking.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’ve done the ball of the foot roundhouse to a bag many times. It always felt awkward. Probably because I’m used to using the shin with toes pointed like an instep kick. The angle it comes in at is different, targets are different, etc.
> 
> I’m not a big roundhouse guy. I target the ribs and the outside of the legs with it. The shin at those targets just feels right and natural to me. Ball of the foot feels like I’m forcing something and where I throw it from (in relation to my opponent) isn’t the same.
> 
> Going from from instep to shin shouldn’t be a difficult transition at all. Just get a few inches closer when throwing the kick. I use the shin for everything but the head. Simply because my shin isn’t going to reach 99% of the time. But let’s be serious - my instep barely reaches either if it reaches at all.


I don't throw a lot of roundhouses, either. I haven't really paid much attention (probably should pay more) the actual proportion of what I throw, but I do know I favor my front kick over all others, at least when actually trying to impact with power (as opposed to a distraction, etc.).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

Martial D said:


> It's pretty much an inside to outside crescent with emphasis on the down force rather than the lateral swing. It's actually a landable kick because the timing is weird. The strike comes a beat late.
> 
> It definitely hurts more with the back of the heel, but it's also easier easier to get caught throwing it that way.


Inside to out crescent...which I also have never trained. 

Seriously, the only crescent kick typically trained in NGA is outside-to-in, and most folks never use it - they train it for tests and never develop it beyond that. I don't teach it, presently, but might add it back in as students progress, if I get my own to something I consider useful.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> Doctors go through lectures and have practical training.  Some doctors go on to treat people, others go on to research medicine further and develop better practices, new procedures, and better ways of doing things.
> 
> When I'm playing video games, I will do research on what others thing the best build for my class is, I'll run my own spreadsheets, and I'll test things out, before applying them.
> 
> I think the same applies to martial arts.  You listen to your master or instructor, you ask questions, you play around with things to see what works best.  Other times you drill to hit stuff, or to keep from being hit by stuff.


And while I share your tinkering mindset, I'll just play the character and see what happens with a given build. Then I'll play with the same class again, and try a different build. I think a large part of my approach to MA is like that. I'm "intuitively analytical" about it - I try stuff, and only pay attention to differences that are big enough to get my attention.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Building spreadsheets before playing video games. Just..., wow. I thought the idea was to have fun.


Some people enjoy analyzing - it's part of the game for them.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you throw axe kick, do you worry about that your opponent may
> 
> - lift your leg over his head and throw you backward?
> - kick your groin?
> ...


That is the math on high kicks. If you throw them without the right opening, you're probably in trouble.


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 27, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think pretty much every move has some sort of counter to it.  @Kung Fu Wang has lots of videos where Ability Y counters Ability X.  But this always assumes that the other fighter knows Ability Y, and always ignores the possibility of Ability Z, which counters Y.
> 
> Not that there's anything wrong with these discussions.  It makes sure you're aware of Y if you use X, it makes sure you know Y for if X is used on you, and it makes you think about what Z should be (if you don't know it already).


Yeah, I'd assume I'm a better target for an axe kick than you. You'd be more likely to recognize it. I'd be smugly thinking, "Heh, you missed with that front k........."


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## dvcochran (Mar 27, 2019)

Martial D said:


> Sure, you can also enter outside in, but it's going to get caught and you'll get dumped on your head.
> 
> At least in a fighting/MMA/Muai Thai context.
> 
> I agree that it is not the best entry technique, but as a third or fourth it's totally landable. I wouldn't call it a go to but I land them in sparring sometimes.


I like using outside to inside kicks coming out of a clinch if my arms are on top so I can delay their block. I cannot pull it off very well anymore, but if you are quick at back leg side stepping a spinning kick, let the kick come by you and outside to inside an ax or crescent kick.


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## JR 137 (Mar 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't throw a lot of roundhouses, either. I haven't really paid much attention (probably should pay more) the actual proportion of what I throw, but I do know I favor my front kick over all others, at least when actually trying to impact with power (as opposed to a distraction, etc.).


I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.

My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use  ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.

Play around with it. It’s great for me inside. Think knee and elbow range/when you’re “in the pocket” or at the rock ‘em sock ‘em robots range. That’s my most comfortable range, so it fits me right. I’m the oddball kicker at the dojo; everyone else throws 90% roundhouse kicks. Very few people throw a front kick very often. Fewer throw the crescent kick. I land both effectively, especially with the guys who like to get up close. It’s not a very effective kick at traditional kicking range IMO.

Just some ideas to play with.


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## drop bear (Mar 27, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I don't throw a lot of roundhouses, either. I haven't really paid much attention (probably should pay more) the actual proportion of what I throw, but I do know I favor my front kick over all others, at least when actually trying to impact with power (as opposed to a distraction, etc.).



I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep. 

I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.


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## skribs (Mar 28, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Yeah, I'd assume I'm a better target for an axe kick than you. You'd be more likely to recognize it. I'd be smugly thinking, "Heh, you missed with that front k........."



Sometimes my ax kick starts as a front kick, but I miss.  One of my favorite things to do are those double-kicks where the opponent thinks I missed and then I tag them.

The best way I use this is I go for a hook kick or crescent kick, most of my sparring partners will lean back to avoid it, and stand back up after the kick misses.  That's the best time for a side kick to the chest.


----------



## skribs (Mar 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.



When I was a kid, my instructor leveled me with one of those when I ran in like an idiot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.
> 
> My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use  ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.
> 
> ...


That sounds about like my use of the front kick, too, JR.

I'll have to ask one of the folks at the Karate dojo to show me their crescent kick. Their style isn't kick-intensive from what I've seen so far, but surely they've got some folks who are more into kicks than me and are good at these things.


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## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep.
> 
> I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.


That actually sounds a lot like the "rib kick" taught in most NGA schools. I've been revisiting it, but haven't figured a way to make it usable with my toe issues. Maybe after I've had the bone spur removed on my left foot (and healed from that) I'll have another go at it. It's one kick that didn't get much use at my old school, but I always thought was easier and more useful than folks made it out to be.

With the front kick, I work power some, but I rarely find myself using any kick for much power. A well-timed kick has enough mass behind it to hit like a hard punch without needing full power. The front is the only one I tend to use any real power with, but even that's not often as I think about it. In fact, the "front kick" I use most is actually part-way between the NGA front kick (oddly, done off the back leg) and the NGA hanmi kick (snap kick off the front leg, more of a circular path in the chambering).


----------



## Gerry Seymour (Mar 28, 2019)

skribs said:


> Sometimes my ax kick starts as a front kick, but I miss.  One of my favorite things to do are those double-kicks where the opponent thinks I missed and then I tag them.
> 
> The best way I use this is I go for a hook kick or crescent kick, most of my sparring partners will lean back to avoid it, and stand back up after the kick misses.  That's the best time for a side kick to the chest.


Remind me not to ever think I've made your kicks miss. You're describing some of my sparring tendencies way too well.


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## dvcochran (Mar 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> I’m not much of a kicker. I haven’t kept stats either, but front kick is by far my most often used kick. I use it like a jab to get inside, and I use it like a Muay Thai “teep” (if that’s the right use of it) to push and create space. My favorite way to use it, even though percentage wise it’s probably the least, it to use it to stop someone in their tracks when they’re overly aggressive and coming in charging.
> 
> My second most used kick is the inside-out crescent kick (which you don’t use  ). I use it as a close quarters kick; bring the knee up like a front kick, then swing the leg around and upside their head. That’s the only one that I consistently reach their head with. People say it’s not a powerful kick, but I disagree. Mine was pretty weak until I hit a bag with it repeatedly. If you’ve got shoes on, you’re striking with the edge of the sole, so you’d get the hard edge, and a burn if you’re angling it right. It can hit like a whip or power through.
> 
> ...


Great strategy. If I understand your front kick technique, it is the same as what is often called a push kick. Same front kick chamber so you can use it really close, but it is a mid section strike with a lot of hip thrust. 
A great inside/outside crescent combo; throw a few mid level kicks to set their expectation and to get their blocks staying low. When you are standing open to your opponent throw a back leg roundhouse. If they do not switch feet, continue moving forward and throw an inside/outside coming over the backside of their front shoulder. Knee chamber is very important since you are going high. I have also found that if you posture correctly while entering the crescent kick, some people never see it until it is too late.


----------



## dvcochran (Mar 28, 2019)

drop bear said:


> I do a ball of the foot round house to the ribs. It becomes a half round kick half teep.
> 
> I don't do power front kicks though. As I find the snappier ones drop people more often for less effort.


I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?


----------



## Tony Dismukes (Mar 28, 2019)

More ...




Notice how the fighters target the leg, hip, gut, ribs, chest, and occasionally even the head to control distance and disrupt their opponent’s technique.

Sometimes the fighters will turn their hips over for greater range so that the teep looks more like a side kick. However the point of impact is still usually the ball of the foot and the body dynamics are closer to a standard Thai front teep than a karate side kick.


----------



## skribs (Mar 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> I have read the word teep in a few post. Can you explain it to me?



The way I understand it, it's basically a front check kick or pushing kick.

The way side kicks get used a lot in TKD.


----------



## JR 137 (Mar 28, 2019)

dvcochran said:


> Great strategy. If I understand your front kick technique, it is the same as what is often called a push kick. Same front kick chamber so you can use it really close, but it is a mid section strike with a lot of hip thrust.
> A great inside/outside crescent combo; throw a few mid level kicks to set their expectation and to get their blocks staying low. When you are standing open to your opponent throw a back leg roundhouse. If they do not switch feet, continue moving forward and throw an inside/outside coming over the backside of their front shoulder. Knee chamber is very important since you are going high. I have also found that if you posture correctly while entering the crescent kick, some people never see it until it is too late.


My front kick is a push kick when I want to back them up to create some space or when they’re coming in hard. It’s more of a snap kick when I’m using it to get inside or start a combo, like a jab would be. In that instance it’s generally not a power kick; it’s more to get the reaction I want. I use it often enough and chamber it high enough when I actually use it so I can reliably bait them into dropping their hands to block it when I chamber. Then I’ll throw several hard and fast punches. Works great.

The crescent kick typically comes from a high chamb and in close. It goes over their lead shoulder (my back leg) and catches them on the side of the head. From where I’m throwing it, they typically don’t see it coming. One guy does every time though, and he catches it on his shoulder which isn’t the best situation for me. He’s a bit taller than the norm, so that plays a factor too. I’m just trying to figure out what he consistently sees that the others aren’t. I don’t want to ask though.


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## dvcochran (Mar 28, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> My front kick is a push kick when I want to back them up to create some space or when they’re coming in hard. It’s more of a snap kick when I’m using it to get inside or start a combo, like a jab would be. In that instance it’s generally not a power kick; it’s more to get the reaction I want. I use it often enough and chamber it high enough when I actually use it so I can reliably bait them into dropping their hands to block it when I chamber. Then I’ll throw several hard and fast punches. Works great.
> 
> The crescent kick typically comes from a high chamb and in close. It goes over their lead shoulder (my back leg) and catches them on the side of the head. From where I’m throwing it, they typically don’t see it coming. One guy does every time though, and he catches it on his shoulder which isn’t the best situation for me. He’s a bit taller than the norm, so that plays a factor too. I’m just trying to figure out what he consistently sees that the others aren’t. I don’t want to ask though.


Just spit balling; I wonder if he sees your shoulder rotating for the crescent kick after the setup?


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## Metal (Apr 9, 2019)

Read this earlier, but was too busy to reply.

Also saw this video a few weeks ago:





So, when it comes to hook kicks, for showboard breaking and Kyeorugi the ball of the foot is always an option. In order to get that extra reach when needed. And as you can see, in the last kick of that serious of spinning hook kicks the guy uses the ball of the foot.

However, I would like to see those who say that the ball of the foot is stronger, break a thicker board with a spinning hook kick. 

Let's take a look at an x-ray. Since I got foot surgery earlier this year I have one handy:







And at the heel we actually have two areas that we can use for hitting when hitting with the heel in a spinning hook kick. The heel is a massive piece of bone. Furthermore if you hit with the heel you hit the target in a small spot. If you hit with the whole ball of the foot (from 1st to 5th metatarsal) the area you hit is way bigger.


Hitting with the back (red area) - I'd call this the more traditional way:





Then there's the way of hitting it with the bottom (red area in the x-ray) of the heel. I'd call this the modern way and I'd say this way is less prone to injury:






Now imagine hitting with the ball of the foot:






I can see instructors teaching a foot position like in the 2nd and 3rd picture. In order to have less injuries and in order to have the extra reach in competition. However- I doubt there are many people who would consider the ball of the foot being stronger.


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## dvcochran (Apr 9, 2019)

Metal said:


> Read this earlier, but was too busy to reply.
> 
> Also saw this video a few weeks ago:
> 
> ...


Very well presented.


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## skribs (Apr 11, 2019)

Metal said:


> If you hit with the whole ball of the foot (from 1st to 5th metatarsal) the area you hit is way bigger.



Okay.  What about the 1st metatarsal only?


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## Buka (Apr 11, 2019)

Regardless of practicality or structural strength of materials to be broken, those jump up in the air Matrix guys are sure fun to watch.

Out of their fricken' minds, but fun to watch.


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## skribs (Apr 11, 2019)

Buka said:


> Regardless of practicality or structural strength of materials to be broken, those jump up in the air Matrix guys are sure fun to watch.
> 
> Out of their fricken' minds, but fun to watch.



If being out of your fricken' mind is a prerequisite for those kicks, I think you're a perfect candidate


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