# What kicks besides a sidekick...



## TSDTexan (Oct 10, 2015)

Hi everyone.
I have a question to ask today.
What kicks can be executed from the front leg.
See picture below. 

This is a step behind posture found in nihanchi's movement to the right ( first right side sequence )


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2015)

Any kick that can be executed from the back leg can be executed from the front leg. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 10, 2015)

A few. Side Kick, outer-crescent, axe, hook and roundhouse would all be good to use form sich a position. I'd rather not cross my feet so I was comfortable throwing any of my kicks from the front leg though


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2015)

Turn the question around. Name a kick that cannot be executed from the front leg. Here's the ones I can think of:




Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## WaterGal (Oct 10, 2015)

Back hook/turning heel kick would be awkward from the front leg IMO, though maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.  But otherwise, yeah, pretty much whatever.  Roundhouse, front, ax, crescent, hook.

I'm unclear about the relationship of the photo to the question, though, since I don't know that form.  Can you clarify that?


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

Dirty Dog said:


> Any kick that can be executed from the back leg can be executed from the front leg.



Yeah, kicks are bi-leg-ual...

That said, there is usually some slight requisite modification when performing a kick from front or rear leg. The hips may shift differently, if you chamber, the chamber may be placed at a slightly different angle, the overall arc of the leg will obviously change in most cases...

But these are generally small, mainly instinctual differences.

My system of TKD performs front, side, round, inside and outside crescents, stomp, rising, axe, hook, inverted, and back kicks, as well as related variants of said kicks. And, while some kicks are certainly easier and more natural from either the front or rear leg, we do all of them from both.


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

Although, if you're talking about specifically throwing kicks from _only_ that particular stepping up and behind position, I would say that side, hook, outside-to-inside crescent, and potentially axe and back kicks would be the better choices...


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## Dinkydoo (Oct 10, 2015)

I'm assumimg that the target is where the guy in the photograph's focus is.....therefore quite a few kicks would be a bit ackward from that stance (I said roundhouse, but upon reflection I dont think it would be a great option). A front kick would definitely feel dodgy, you'd have to pivot on the back foot to throw it properly


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## Dirty Dog (Oct 10, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Back hook/turning heel kick would be awkward from the front leg IMO, though maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.  But otherwise, yeah, pretty much whatever.  Roundhouse, front, ax, crescent, hook.
> 
> I'm unclear about the relationship of the photo to the question, though, since I don't know that form.  Can you clarify that?



A hook kick is a hook kick, regardless of what twists we impose on the body setting it up. 

The picture just shows a practitioner in a cross stance, like in Koryo. In Koryo, the rear foot passes in front of the lead foot, while in this picture it passes to the rear of the lead foot. Most commonly it's used to close distance to execute a side kick. Personally, I prefer to cross in the rear for side kicks or hook kicks, and to the front for roundhouses or front kicks. But that's a personal preference, not an absolute. 


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Not TapaTalk. Really.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 10, 2015)

The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique. Here, and I think its a kick.

I will have to watch the dvd again.
Unfortunately it has no subs. And I don't understand his Japanese that well.

And the english voice overs are incomplete.
I am trying to find a written transcript.

He steps behind instead of steping in front the way most do nihanchi.
And this is one of the things his dad Choki taught him.

So I am trying different kicks from this position.  The sidekick feels natural but is that be cause of the countless number I have fired off in the position or because thats what goes there.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 10, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Back hook/turning heel kick would be awkward from the front leg IMO, though maybe I'm not thinking about it the right way.  But otherwise, yeah, pretty much whatever.  Roundhouse, front, ax, crescent, hook.
> 
> I'm unclear about the relationship of the photo to the question, though, since I don't know that form.  Can you clarify that?


At about the 15 second mark.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 10, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Although, if you're talking about specifically throwing kicks from _only_ that particular stepping up and behind position, I would say that side, hook, outside-to-inside crescent, and potentially axe and back kicks would be the better choices...


Yes... this exact position.
Its not a general what kicks can a front leg throw question. It is what kicks can be thrown by the front leg in this specific stance.

Target is either to his right hand side directly, or on diag perhaps 45° between his front and his right.


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique. Here, and I think its a kick.



Or a leg off-balancing, or a takedown, although i think we may do this motion in slightly, yet significantly different ways...


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## WaterGal (Oct 10, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> At about the 15 second mark.



Thanks, that's a big help.  So is the goal (with the foot crossing behind) still to end up moving laterally to the right into a horse stance, like in the video?  In that case, if the hidden technique is a kick, I think it would have to be a right leg side kick or hook kick.  Though.... crossing the foot behind would make it easier to hook kick, while you can do side kick ok either way.

But it sounds like you're not sure if the hidden technique is even a kick, is that the case?  I'm asking because the guy in this video is doing more than just a simple cross-step, there's a whole weight distribution thing going on. Maybe the hidden technique isn't a strike at all.

ETA: Oh, I had a thought.... low hook to the knee or ankle and then the arm technique following is done as a sweep to the chest?


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## Koshiki (Oct 10, 2015)

I may be a little unclear on what is meant by "hidden technique" here. It's not a term or mindset I tend to really apply to Kata. I guess I was thinking, when I read that, more of a technique which is present in the motion as is, but is not self-evident, rather than something, like a kick, which must be added. Something not so much hidden as omitted. Not that it really matters what we call it, but are you looking for a hidden application of the current movement, or are you looking for other techniques which could be added to the current movement to alter it's intent?

For my own understanding of Tekki/Naihanchi, _most _applications I practice involve the opponent being somewhere in the front 120o arc or so, rather than to the side, so if we're actually talking about a kick within the context of Naihanchi, that would greatly change which kicks I might tend towards.

I thought you were just talking about kicks that could be executed from a cross legged stance in general, my bad!

In the context of Naihanchi application, I would probably suggest a low level side kick at about 45o, or an inverted round kick, although a sweep in the direction and path of the step might go a long way towards both those goals too...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 11, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> I may be a little unclear on what is meant by "hidden technique" here. It's not a term or mindset I tend to really apply to Kata. I guess I was thinking, when I read that, more of a technique which is present in the motion as is, but is not self-evident, rather than something, like a kick, which must be added. Something not so much hidden as omitted. Not that it really matters what we call it, but are you looking for a hidden application of the current movement, or are you looking for other techniques which could be added to the current movement to alter it's intent?
> 
> For my own understanding of Tekki/Naihanchi, _most _applications I practice involve the opponent being somewhere in the front 120o arc or so, rather than to the side, so if we're actually talking about a kick within the context of Naihanchi, that would greatly change which kicks I might tend towards.
> 
> ...



I will rewatch the dvd in the morning and do a look-see the words used again.

Elsewhere, the footsweeps flicking out from the knee are actually hidden front snap kicks.

Chosei said his father said there are a few hidden techniques in this Kata. Considering that Choki did the kata 500 times each day, and it was his primary focus... even his area of expertise.

He said this kata contained all the fundamentals of karate that you would need in a real fight.

So... I am tring to figure out which kick belongs in that one spot.

About tekki...
Tekki is a deviation that is based on Naifanchi.
G. Funakoshi spent almost ten years learning how to do Naifanchi under Itosu. (But not the hinans/pinans) Itosu pretty much demanded that his students do it 10,000 times exactly the way itosu ordered, before giving them their next kata.

Word is that Itosu created the second and third nihanchi katas. Either by scratchbuilding or by breaking up an older longer chinese version of Naifanchi.

Sokon "Bushi" Matsumura brought it back from China.
Gitchen was never taught by the man who brought it back from China. Choki and his brother both were.

At any rate, what began to be taught by G.F. in Japan was something very different than what he was trained in.
So Tekki is a lesser version of the Naifanchi that GF knew.

The common assumption is that nihanchi is fighting two directions with a wall at your back, against multiple attackers.

However this is the very thing Choki spoke about.


_The position of the legs and hips in Naifuanchin (the old name for Naihanchi) no Kata is the basics of karate."_
_"Twisting to the left or right from the Naifuanchin stance will give you the stance used in a real confrontation. Twisting one's way of thinking about Naifuanchin left and right, the various meanings in each movement of the kata will also become clear."_
_"The blocking hand must be able to become the attacking hand in an instant. Blocking with one hand and then countering with the other is not true bujutsu. Real bujutsu presses forward and blocks and counters in the same motion."_


The attackers are not plural, but singular, and the left  and right are directions from the defender's body structure.

Here is some great analysis of Nihanchi kata.
That bears this in mind.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2015)

WaterGal said:


> Back hook/turning heel kick would be awkward from the front leg IMO, though


Unless you are kicking behind you.


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## Gnarlie (Oct 11, 2015)

Question: in the OP picture, the step is behind. In the video the step at 15 seconds is in front. Which do you mean?

This cross step combined with the weight sink onto the front foot in the video suggests one or both of two things:

1) pulling the opponent downward with the hands to unbalance and facilitate the backfist.

2) stomping with weight and onto the opponents instep, pinning the opponent's foot before striking with the backfist as a takedown, damaging the opponent's the ankle

The same principle appears at the end of Taegeuk O Jang, and some of the Taegeuk form sequences smell like Naihanchi.


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## RTKDCMB (Oct 11, 2015)

While any kick can be executed from the front leg the hook kick and the inner to outer crescent kick are easier with the front leg. From the position in the picture side kick and hook kick are the most common.


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## Buka (Oct 11, 2015)

It's a broad question. As far as mechanics, a lot of kicks can be thrown from that transitional step.

But if we break it down further, It depends. It depends on the "who", the "when" the "in what", the "where".  "the how" and the old "against whom?'

As for "the who". There are advanced Tae-kwon-do kickers who can hit you from anywhere. 
Case in point - working in the forced busing days, high school kids had fights on a daily basis, some of them quite violent. One day, two of them were being arrested for fighting. They were both handcuffed (behind their back) and a BPD officer was walking them out to the wagon. Three of us were trailing behind them. The officer was in the middle and was holding each by the upper arm as they walked up a short flight of stairs to the exit. One of the kids, 17 year old Johnny D, had been training in Martial Arts since he was a wee kid. Really nice kid who had been defending himself from the other, a violent trouble maker. Johnny D could kick like all get out. The other kid was yelling at the officer during the whole perp walk, Johnny didn't utter a sound. At the third step Johnny raised his leg (behind the officer's back) and roundkicked the other kid behind the head. Just a snappy roundhouse, which he whipped back down and never broke stride. The trouble maker's head snapped, he yelped and stumbled. The officer jerked him back up. We had to peel off to the side, covering our mouths trying to stop the laughter.
It was one of the funniest (and coolest) things I've seen to this day.

So the answer to the question of "What kind of kick can you throw on a set of stairs while your hands are cuffed behind your back?" would probably be "that's a silly question" or no kick, not in in real life". But then, Johnny had some really skilled TKD and I saw it. (hell, I still laughed writing this)

As to the "in what" - , mechanics aside, what I'm refering to is in what kind of sparring are we talking about? Don't get me wrong, you can still throw anything you want, but If we are Karate/TKD sport sparring the answer might differ than if we are doing any kind of ring fighting or continous motion sparring (no stopping for points) Not that you can't throw it, but if it's easilly countered that might limit your options.

I should interject here that I've been using that step and kick for longer than I care to admit. I love it.

"The how"  Joe Lewis used to use that step for a sidekick a lot in sport Karate. He was incredibly strong and incredibly fast. When he threw it - he stomped the floor with his steps. I mean really stomped it. He considered it "blasting off the ground" and said it should never be thrown "slowly, lightly or with compassion in your heart". Some saw it coming and blocked it. Some retreated. But the ones that blocked it couldn't use their arm again for the next ten minutes, or their shoulder or whatever, the ones that ran usually got caught and were sent flying - usually considered a push with no point awarded. But it shook them so much their game face would look different. It would look scared. 
I spent many hours in my kitchen discussing this step and kick with Joe. He said that as much as he loved it he didn't use it often in ring fighting (PKA) because it was too easilly countered.

As to "the where" if it's outside the dojo "the where" means a lot. I live in New England. There's ice, snow and slush on the ground three months of the year. And I'm wearing boots. The boots change your timing because of their weight. The ice changes your traction in a fast step. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it becomes far less practical outside of the perfect conditions of the dojo.

"The when". If we're sparring and I catch you napping, or you're circling back and forth, or stay flat footed for a sec too long, or (obviously) you protect your head but pay little attention to your body, you're going to get blasted. (I'm still talking side kick here.)
If you're a counter figher who likes to counter kicks, especially sliding to my backside, I'm going to have to use it more judiciously...or get blasted myself.

As to the other kicks usually thrown from that step, again, it depends. When you throw the hook kick from a step-in-front cross step, if you're moving real fast and the hook misses - there's a beat where you're real vulnerable recovering. You can actually recover quicker if you were slightly below your top speed.
If you hit to the head, you're fine, but sometimes if you miss and hit the shoulder or a high guard (both of you with right side forward, say) your balance is throw off a bit if you threw really hard.. and sometimes takes two beats to correct.
But if you can really hook kick - it's as much fun as Christmas. No, really.

As was said - you can make that step behind your lead foot, in front of your lead foot, or just bring your feet together. Bill Wallace used to bring them together. He had tremendous success with that.

With a roundhouse - if you're stepping behind the lead leg, you sometimes either jam your kick or have to shave off part of the angle open to you. Long as you can do it, you can do it.

As to the "against whom". Other than a side kick, a hook kick or a roundhouse, I don't think you're actully going to land any others against a savvy fighter. Especially against a savvy kicker. You can throw them, sure, but I don't think you'll land them to often. Go try against a TKD guy who's a more experienced kicker than you. Betcha you won't try it again.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

Gnarlie said:


> Question: in the OP picture, the step is behind. In the video the step at 15 seconds is in front. Which do you mean?
> 
> This cross step combined with the weight sink onto the front foot in the video suggests one or both of two things:
> 
> ...




Sorry for the late reply.
I got really busy over the weekend.
Rewatching the dvd with my notebook out.
I saw what I missed the first time.
Chosei does a bunkai and the kick is a front snap kick from the right leg and it is a left leg step over/in front of the person.
The misunderstanding is the various kata types of naihanchi shodan. Like the 15 second mark on my earlier tsd vid link.

Motobu ryu does this same kata to the left in the older way too...
Here is chosei doing it to the right.(slow mo)




.

And to the left.





and sometimes does a step behind, as well as the more common cross step in front.

Since the stepbehind rear version is somewhat unknown in naifanchi/nihanchi/tekki I was trying to suss the secret kick out on this version.

Since the kata is a bisected symmetrical form that mirrors itelf either direction. Starting direction doesnt matter much other than tradition's sake.

But I still wonder what kick "Bushi" Matsumura on the stepbehind version. And what the Chinese Kempo back on the mainland would most likely have thrown with that front line leg.


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## clfsean (Oct 12, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> And what the Chinese Kempo back on the mainland would most likely have thrown with that front line leg.



Couple of ways to look at this so the least resistant version is ... it depends. But given southern CMA nature & especially those in the Fujian area where OMA is said to have been influenced. It would've been low lined looking to break the balance & structure, as well a limb as a buy one get one bonus.


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## elder999 (Oct 12, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique. Here, and I think its a kick.
> .



Not a kick.

Not a secret.

Question I always, _always,*always*_ ask for kata and bunkei, and insist my students ask as well:

_Where is the enemy?_


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Not a kick.
> 
> Not a secret.
> 
> ...



Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Couple of ways to look at this so the least resistant version is ... it depends. But given southern CMA nature & especially those in the Fujian area where OMA is said to have been influenced. It would've been low lined looking to break the balance & structure, as well a limb as a buy one get one bonus.


Side kick to the knee.


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## clfsean (Oct 12, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Side kick to the knee.



Again, maybe. I have arthritis in my hips. The posting & turning for a proper sidekick makes me opt for the smack in the face from an opponent than kicking them. So I do lots of front, cross & circled kicks that don't involve posting my body like a side kick. I promise you, if i were to do anything like that kata, there wouldn't be a side anything kick. I could tell you what went there, but I'd do what I can.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 12, 2015)

clfsean said:


> Again, maybe. I have arthritis in my hips. The posting & turning for a proper sidekick makes me opt for the smack in the face from an opponent than kicking them. So I do lots of front, cross & circled kicks that don't involve posting my body like a side kick. I promise you, if i were to do anything like that kata, there wouldn't be a side anything kick. I could tell you what went there, but I'd do what I can.



My take on OMA is practicality was paramount.
Inability to chamber a s.k. is cause for substitution.


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## Koshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

Many, many, many applications pulled from kata are benefited by a low side or cross/stomp kick to the knee, or a quick partial sweep to the leg with your stance, perhaps Naihanchi particularly so. Personally, I like many applications from the Naihanchi series with this implied legwork. However, it depends on what you mean here...


TSDTexan said:


> Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.


Do you mean that your opponent is to the left/right, as in to the direction you are moving, or do you mean that they are towards the left or right side of your forward arc? Put another way, is your opponent situated more in area A, or in areas B? I've been assuming A, which leads to very different application possibilities than B...


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## Koshiki (Oct 12, 2015)

P.S. Three cheers for the Ryan Parker clip. One of my faves.


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## elder999 (Oct 12, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.


 
If that's the case, then think about it, and what the motion itself entails, not what "could come from it."


TSDTexan said:


> Before you either to the left or rightside, stepping out of kiba dachi. Within arms reach.


 
What do you step _into?_ What do the hands do when doing so?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> If that's the case, then think about it, and what the motion itself entails, not what "could come from it."
> 
> 
> What do you step _into?_ What do the hands do when doing so?



It could be that you are steping _into_
Kosa-dachi (交差立, Crossing stance)

From kiba-dachi, bring the (left) back leg forward so that the back knee is almost tucked in to the back of the front (right) knee, with only the toes and ball of the back (left) foot on the floor.

Depending on the ryuha style, the back (left) foot may be directly behind the front (right) foot, or out to the side of the front (right) foot, so that the legs are crossed.

But traditionaly in the Kosa-dachi the front leg has 90% rear leg has 10%...
This specific weight distribution in the stance would not be good for kicking with the front leg.

As for what the hands are doing...the kata looks like:
Slowly turn your head 90 degrees to look left. Check

Slowly turn your head 180 degrees to look right. Check

Step your left foot to your right, then your right foot to your right, as you drop into naihanchi dachi. Check.

As you step, the hands pivot on the middle knuckles of the middle fingers, until the hands and arms are parallel at the solar plexus level, and the right hand pushes straight out to your right*, extending your arm perfectly straight striking with a veritcal spearhand strike, palm facing forward, as if striking with the fingertips, {alternately some ryuha go: * and your hand open (thumb cocked), palm facing forward, striking with the knife edge of the hand}, while you pull your left hand back in a hikite position.
This precedes the elbow strike.

..........
So please, sempai... tell me what is positioned to happen or happen here. I value your input deeply.
I will not argue against your bunkai. I just want to hear your thoughts in the matter. I am already in agreement with whatever you say because I am looking at utilizing it in a lesson plan for next week. Bunkai should be experienced and experimental?  Right?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 13, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Many, many, many applications pulled from kata are benefited by a low side or cross/stomp kick to the knee, or a quick partial sweep to the leg with your stance, perhaps Naihanchi particularly so. Personally, I like many applications from the Naihanchi series with this implied legwork. However, it depends on what you mean here...
> 
> Do you mean that your opponent is to the left/right, as in to the direction you are moving, or do you mean that they are towards the left or right side of your forward arc? Put another way, is your opponent situated more in area A, or in areas B? I've been assuming A, which leads to very different application possibilities than B...
> View attachment 19584


They (he) are in the direction you are moving.
Either in B zone or in between B and A zones.

We know that because the embusen 演武線 of the kata is not forward/backward like sanchin kata. It is Lateral.
Therefore, we are moving laterally to an opponent in our port or starboard directly.  Scuttling like a crab.

But the kata also teaches the target moves into zone A which is why the backfist and frontkicks into zone A exist. The kata either teaches that in the fight the defender moves from fighting on the right side, then on the centerline before defending on his left side  OR is remaining on his right towards the enemy and dealing with attacks on several body sides left body, right body and centerline.


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## elder999 (Oct 13, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> It
> So please, sempai... tell me what is positioned to happen or happen here. I value your input deeply.
> I will not argue against your bunkai. I just want to hear your thoughts in the matter. I am already in agreement with whatever you say because I am looking at utilizing it in a lesson plan for next week. Bunkai should be experienced and experimental?  Right?



hey=I rely pretty heavily on the Socratic method. I ask questions until you find your own answer-I'm not gonna just give it to you.

Some hints:

1) Usually, if it's called a "secret," it's hidden......in plain sight.
2) What's there is what's there-the "secret" isn't something that's added to the kata. It's in the kata.
3) So, when the step occurs to the right in the direction of the opponent into kiba dachi, where does that foot land in regards to the opponent?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> hey=I rely pretty heavily on the Socratic method. I ask questions until you find your own answer-I'm not gonna just give it to you.
> 
> Some hints:
> 
> ...



Re1:
But we don't see it because it is staring us in the face.

Re2: If has been removed/substituted from/with in the kata but verbally communicated when a disciple has been granted closed door or inner door status. It "the acctual technique" cannot be seen from the kata until disclosure or a lucky observation.... eg  enlightenment epiphanie experience.

Re3. Towards him but not at him. It maybe tenshin aspect of taisubaki. Closing distance by slowing the attack. An article that I was reading early this morning. . . broached this subject

Good article... but focus on the 5 paragraphs prior to the Conclusion header. Starting with the sentence_ "
But what if there is no meaningful stepping - either forward or back "_
And ending with the bold font word Conclusion.

The Way of Least Resistance: Body movement in kata - what does it mean?


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## elder999 (Oct 13, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Re1:
> But we don't see it because it is staring us in the face


 
Yippers.

Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.



TSDTexan said:


> Re2: If has been removed/substituted from/with in the kata but verbally communicated when a disciple has been granted closed door or inner door status. It "the acctual technique" cannot be seen from the kata until disclosure or a lucky observation.... eg  enlightenment epiphanie experience.


 
Nope. It's right there, in plain sight. Not removed. Not substituted.

What you see is what you get.



TSDTexan said:


> Re3. Towards him but not at him. It maybe tenshin aspect of taisubaki. Closing distance by slowing the attack. An article that I was reading early this morning. . . broached this subject


 

Last time_: where are your feet in relationship to your adversary?_



TSDTexan said:


> Good article... but focus on the 5 paragraphs prior to the Conclusion header. Starting with the sentence_ "
> But what if there is no meaningful stepping - either forward or back "_
> And ending with the bold font word Conclusion.
> The Way of Least Resistance: Body movement in kata - what does it mean?


 
Yeah. A little too much thinking, and in another direction altogether-not wrong, just not simple.

This is simple.

One last hint:_ most_ of the time you see hands coming together in Okinawan systems, it's implying something besides a strike or a block.


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## elder999 (Oct 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yippers.
> 
> Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.
> 
> ...


 
Screw it. 



You liked his article. Here he is in a video.....talking too much (surprise!  ),  and not quite right,  but he has kind of the gist of it.





 
Mind you, while I say he has the gist of it, the way it's demonstrated, and basically the way he moves are.....off......the whole wrist grab thing is off......the cross-step is off. The rest of it is nearly correct, though I'm not convinced.

If I used this correctly on someone, they'd be falling down with some pretty significant damage. He hasn't demonstrated (here) that this is what would occur.....his body dynamics are all wrong: he's not sinking his weight properly, and he's way too far away......of course, he's demonstrating and talking at the same time, and that might be why...which is why I hate it...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yippers.
> 
> Another hint: do it in tandem with an opponent, and experiment with body placement.
> 
> ...



The one last hint... not a block, not a strike... uses both hand is a grab, lock, break.... or a grab, throw/takedown.

My general presumption with regard to cma/oma forms is body distance is desired to be from elbow strike to mid forearm distance apart from centerline to centerline.
With Naifanchin, nihanchi we are rotating our cenerline 90° left or right from our opponent's body.

With Tekki and Shotokan forms the distance between the two increases in the forms and in kumite.
I don't know how that fits into your line of Kyokushin, if your line leans more Gojo (closer distance infighting)  more outfighting from the Funakoshi side of your line.

Having spent a lot of time with a variety of Kyokushin guys chatting and sparing... I have learned there is quite a spectrum of ranges you guys fight in.

Perhaps I should go back and reread Essential Karate and see if Mas has anything specific to say about distance and preferable range.


I will echo some thoughts that I have have heard and my own experiences agree with. This is a rabbit trail off the OP... but eventually gets back to the issue of distance and range. 

Back in the 50's to late 60's - the sport of Kyokushin - knockdown karate hadn't even been dreamed up yet - so fighters trained at that time didn't really have the lack of punching defense that a lot of Kyokushinka seem to be plagued with  today.  

Fighters back in those days were far more well rounded than kyokushinka today - an example of this is in 1963/64 when Sosai Oyama sent three kyokushin karateka; Tadashi Nakamura, Akio Fujihira & Kenji Kurosaki to compete against Nak Muay  

If the general HQ of most Kyokushin outfits of today tried to do the same - I wouldn't be surprised to see many of their fighters raped & sent back to Japan - that's the difference between now & then - the reason for the difference is because of knockdown karate - Kyokushin pre 2nd world tournament became more & more geared for the knockdown karate rule-set until today.....

 where it's just pretty much geared for knockdown solely now 
It is thankfully, not the case everywhere..

( very off topic asside: Back in the 70's (perhaps 76'), Kenji Kurosaki who was with Sosai Oyama since their Goju-ryu days, (although Sosai was his sempai), didn't like the direction Kyokushin was going in with knockdown karate & felt it took away from what Kyokushin was & left the IKO in 76' to form...

The Kurosaki dojo where he would eventually teach Toshio Fujiwara (first foreigner to win a serious title in Thailand), the dutch (Bluming, Plaas and co. - who are the fathers of Dutch Kickboxing from out of the style Kurosaki taught which was a blend of mainly kyokushin with slight muay thai influences).)

When knockdown karate came into effect in '69 with the first all Japan tournament - fighters even then up until the second world tournament IMO didn't have the serious flaws that most KK fighters of today suffer from 
*
(if you watch early knockdown footage & compare it to now, you'll notice how the distance is different)* 

- a classic example of a fighter who was a beast back then was Shihan Howard Collins --- 

ALSO it has to be mentioned that early Kyokushinka were much more well rounded fighters than the ones today because they didn't really gear themselves to the knockdown rule-set plus a very large percentage of kyokushin fighters back in the early days were also Judoka.

Which makes for some seriouly mean Japanese dudes.
Gojo + Judo equal "no joke-ah"!


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## TSDTexan (Oct 13, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Screw it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


When he does the flying knee block... I just shake my head.
There is no root to backfist and elbowstrike from. The rest seemed workable.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 14, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> At about the 15 second mark.


1. Should I be trying to throw a kick from that position?
2. Are there other things that are better suited for attacking from that position?

The picture of the guy in the video post #11 don't have the same stance.  The rooted and advancing leg are different.  The cross stance in the picture allows for a retreat, spinning backfist, spinning hook, hook, uppercut, or sweep while the cross stance in the video doesn't allow for a retreat attack. I don't think the position itself is a hidden technique I think it hides some of the techniques that can follow after it.  For the cross stance In the picture I wouldn't do a kick at all. I'm assuming that the cross stance in the picture is similar to the one that I use where that my hands are attacking/distracting, my left foot is advancing at the same time, which would give me an opportunity to attack low with my right leg once my left leg becomes the root.

The video in post #11 of the guy doing the cross stance at mark 15. Would probably be one that I would only do if someone is doing a front kick to my mid section.  Not sure how closely related my use of the cross stance is to the fighting system being discussed.


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## Buka (Oct 14, 2015)

Might be due to lacking as a student on my part, but I see little passion, little oomph in any of the videos posted in this thread. (I know, I'm a heathen)


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## Koshiki (Oct 14, 2015)

Strange too, since I always think of Naihanchi as being just about the oomphiest series I practice or have seen...

Not my style, per se, but I saw this a while back didn't think it was too bad, in terms of oomph. Passion I can't speak to, but oomph, perhaps...


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 14, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Strange too, since I always think of Naihanchi as being just about the oomphiest series I practice or have seen...
> 
> Not my style, per se, but I saw this a while back didn't think it was too bad, in terms of oomph. Passion I can't speak to, but oomph, perhaps...


At my school the students are always told that our form practice should be able to hurt someone who accidentally gets in the path of the form.  If we do the form and it looks like we can just walk into the form without getting hurt them the person that is doing the form isn't doing it with enough power.  I would have to say that this guy is one of those who I wouldn't want to accidentally walk into his form.  It looks like it would hurt if I did.  I also have to say I've never seen anyone drive power from their knees like that, it could be a disadvantage if those movements are "tell-tale signs."  But it's definitely the "oomphiest" lol


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## PhotonGuy (Oct 16, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Hi everyone.
> I have a question to ask today.
> What kicks can be executed from the front leg.
> See picture below.
> ...


Reverse roundhouse.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 16, 2015)

PhotonGuy said:


> Reverse roundhouse.


Do you mean a hook kick?


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## Koshiki (Oct 16, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Do you mean a hook kick?


I would guess he means what I would call an inverted kick, or inverted round kick. Where, generally speaking, you leg comes up and across the other leg, and kicks laterally out to the side.

If the kick were to head towards the front arc, this cross leg position is a relatively easy place to throw it from.


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## elder999 (Oct 16, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Do you mean a hook kick?



No kick. There is no kick. Look there, at that part of the kata-there is no kick there in the kata, "secret" or otherwise. The "secret"'s in the kata, not something that you have to add to the kata.


TSDTexan said:


> Do you mean a hook kick?


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## Chris Parker (Oct 18, 2015)

I'm with Elder in, well, everything he's saying here… TSDTexan, I think the issue here is that you're trying to see something that you've decided should be there, rather than actually looking at what is. You've mentioned your own assumptions (post 10, where you say you think the "hidden" aspect is a kick) and presumptions (post 37, with your "general presumptions" about Okinawan martial arts), and so on… the typical question for your beliefs is, of course, "Why?"

Why do you believe it's a kick? Where have your presumptions come from? From education and teachings of those above you, or from your own thinking? If the former, we can compare and contrast with others lessons… if the latter, cool, but we then shouldn't discount the idea that, well, you might not be on the right track in the first place.


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## TimoS (Oct 18, 2015)

elder999 said:


> The "secret"'s in the kata, not something that you have to add to the kata.


Exactly. There is actually no need for any "hidden" or "secret" techniques in Naifanchi or just about any other karate kata, for that matter. It's all in the kata


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 18, 2015)

TimoS said:


> Exactly. There is actually no need for any "hidden" or "secret" techniques in Naifanchi or just about any other karate kata, for that matter. It's all in the kata


I don't know about kata but in kung fu it's possible for one movement to have 5 or 6 different applications in this case the applications that aren't taught are hidden "hidden."  Our first combination is taught as a counter to beginners. It consists of 4 movements (2 blocks 2 punches) of the top of my head there are 10 counter applications dealing with the 1st 2 parts. I know of only 5 attacks of the that involve only the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th parts as a combination.  The offense portions were never taught to me because my Sifu kept it to himself so you can say that they were "hidden" from me.  The only reason I learned about them was because I was digging deeper into the basics and discovered that they weren't so basic.  

We also have other techniques that are "hidden" to our opponent.  One of our training activities requires us to become comfortable with punches coming in. In order to do this we can only block, remain calm, and take "mental notes" of what is going.  During my second session I started to realize that man of our punches and attacks are "hidden" in the technique, meaning at times I literally can't see my opponents hand because it is being hidden by the body or moving outside of my range of vision/ focus.  Other times I may not see a technique because my attention and focus is being pulled away from certain locations as a result of being punch or focusing on defending against a punch or a kick. One can say that these "techniques are hidden" to the opponent.

I don't look a my kung fu forms the same now. Students and people may see only one movement for one purposes, but it's much deeper than that and I would think karate would be similar. If you did deeper into the kata you should be able to find deeper meaning and actually better applications of the movement that you are doing.

I'm not saying that your statement is wrong, I'm just sharing my experience with my kung fu forms and thinking that it may be the same with kata.


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## elder999 (Oct 18, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm with Elder in, well, everything he's saying here… TSDTexan, I think the issue here is that you're trying to see something that you've decided should be there, rather than actually looking at what is. You've mentioned your own assumptions (post 10, where you say you think the "hidden" aspect is a kick) and presumptions (post 37, with your "general presumptions" about Okinawan martial arts), and so on… the typical question for your beliefs is, of course, "Why?"
> 
> Why do you believe it's a kick? Where have your presumptions come from? From education and teachings of those above you, or from your own thinking? If the former, we can compare and contrast with others lessons… if the latter, cool, but we then shouldn't discount the idea that, well, you might not be on the right track in the first place.



That's not to say that you couldn't add some kicks to it-it's an interesting exercise......

....as is practicing it with your back against the wall.....

.....or from in a corner......

or turning each time you cross-step....

or doing all three naihanchi together, one after another, if your style has all three and you've learned them....

or doing all three one after another and turning with each cross step

not that any of that is "secret." 

And, as far as that goes, I'm fairly certain that what Motobu said was "hidden," not  "invisible, " or "secret," or "unshown." It's *hidden,* which usually means-when it comes to kata- "in plain sight." It's actually a collection of several grappling applications that are hidden....and, blather about kyokushin and its degeneration due to knockout tournaments (which allow just this sort of throw!) notwithstanding, it's something that's still pretty much taught-as in *taught*-as in _demonstrated_, as in *shown* when the student is ready for it, by a great many teachers........


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## Tez3 (Oct 19, 2015)

Wado...only one Naihanchi and definitely no kicks in it hidden or in plain sight.

There is this but do read Iain's comments about it's practicality, as he says it's worth knowing/seeing for the historic value.

Ground-hold following on from Naihanchi / Tekki bunkai (video) | Iain Abernethy


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Buka said:


> Might be due to lacking as a student on my part, but I see little passion, little oomph in any of the videos posted in this thread. (I know, I'm a heathen)


Passion has to be part of an instruction manual?
Since when?

I am curious about when that tradition got started.
Because kata wasnt, for a very long time a performance art... it simply was a repository of knowledge. 
When karate was an outlawed thing and folks has to do it with very dim lanterns... in the dark of night.... just a single student and teacher it certainly was not a performance art.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Chris Parker said:


> I'm with Elder in, well, everything he's saying here… TSDTexan, I think the issue here is that you're trying to see something that you've decided should be there, rather than actually looking at what is. You've mentioned your own assumptions (post 10, where you say you think the "hidden" aspect is a kick) and presumptions (post 37, with your "general presumptions" about Okinawan martial arts), and so on… the typical question for your beliefs is, of course, "Why?"
> 
> Why do you believe it's a kick? Where have your presumptions come from? From education and teachings of those above you, or from your own thinking? If the former, we can compare and contrast with others lessons… if the latter, cool, but we then shouldn't discount the idea that, well, you might not be on the right track in the first place.



Chris.
In answer to your question.  Chosei Motobu said there was a kick there. Per Choki's instruction.
Then because I have such a bread crumb... I start to explore and experiment with the kata.

And then, I also ask people, such as friends through email,  on the tekephone, through skype and even on martial arts forums such as this one.

Turning over stones, looking for an answer to a question that was raised by a comment by Chosei Motobu. Why do I... think it is a kick... cause Chosei said it is a kick.

As for your thinking that I am trying to read something into the kata of my own imagination. . . Your exact words:

_TSDTexan, I think the issue here is that you're trying to see something that you've decided should be there, rather than actually looking at what is._


Would you be so kind as to do us a favor...
and please actually read for content because you clearly missed where I had said Chosei said it was a kick. & When discussing what others are trying to see... refrain from guessing about motivation,  which you clearly admit too.

I am a kata investigator, not a kata invention-injection-interpretation.
I am going to borrow two words from another field of study.
Exegesis and Eisegesis.

I believe in exegesis of kata.
I shun eisegesis of kata.

*Question: "What is the difference between exegesis and eisegesis?"

Answer: *Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in the study of texts.

Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The opposite approach to textual study is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text.

Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and historical and cultural setting.

Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.


So I am personally reticent to dogmatically declare anything about kata. I am far more likely to cite an authority who has spoken about kata.

As I have done with Chosei and the hidden leg kick (actually several kicks in naihanchi shodan)

I spend a lot of time reasearching two specific oma kata.
They are my area of focus.
Sanchin and Nafanchi.
So anytime someone like Chosei speaks up and says Choki said "xyz134" about this step of this kata my ears perk up.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Chris.
> In answer to your question.  Chosei Motobu said there was a kick there. Per Choki's instruction.
> Then because I have such a bread crumb... I start to explore and experiment with the kata.
> 
> ...


 
And again, missing a smiley-this time the one that raises the "B.S." flag.....

Show us directly where "Chosei Motobu said it was a kick."

As for what you said directly



TSDTexan said:


> The reason I ask is Chosei Motobu said there is a hidden technique*. Here, and I think its a kick*.


 
Dude. Seriously?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> And again, missing a smiley-this time the one that raises the "B.S." flag.....
> 
> Show us directly where "Chosei Motobu said it was a kick."
> 
> ...



I expressed myself poorly in the oldest post.
It should have been.
Its a hidden technique, and I think chosei said it is a kick.

But I expressed myself poorly. And it looks like "I think it is a kick" is all I was going on there. (Which was not the case) I had seen a kick but didn't get a good view because of the camera angles and my three year old demanding my attention while the wife was cooking dinner.

Also the camera was shooting video from a stationary frame, and they did not perform the same bunkai facing the other direction so you could see the other side of the body.

So I had a very brief view of a kick.

This oldest post was generated after a brief flyover viewing of the dvd with family interuptions.

I was intrigued by the kick being taught right there in a kata with no explicit kicks.

So I started asking questions and experimenting.

Perhaps, Elder...you missed where....

Later in the thread (on october 12th), I said that I grabbed my pen and notebook, and rewatched the video taking notes....that ChoseI actually covered the kick.

Here is a quote from that October 12th post:
_I saw what I missed the first time.
Chosei does a bunkai and the kick is a front snap kick from the right leg and it is a left leg step over/in front of the person.
_

And now I will be even more to the point
And with the sound turned on (which wasnt the case the first time I saw the kick) you can hear the English translation of the narator.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> I expressed myself poorly in the oldest post.
> It should have been.
> Its a hidden technique, and I think chosei said it is a kick.
> 
> ...



The  kick is added then-an option-it is not part of the kata. It is not hidden in the kata. It is not an interpretation of the kata. It is an application-a derivation-of what can be done from a certain position. One could as easily say that another punch was available from that position-or what options might be available if one were armed with a knife or stick from that position....


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

I fall in the camp of: all the movements are in the form, anything "hidden" is just an application of those same motions, no added technique, kick or otherwise, is needed.

However, TSDTexan wants, whatever his reasoning, to experiment with kicks here. Fine. Let's tackle it from that aspect.

Personally I don't add any kicks in my Naihanchi practice. (Not to say the legwork isn't aggressive, but that's a different story!)
But, if were going to explore how sprinkling some kicks in can function with TSDTexan's applications, I do really think we need a clearer idea of _what_ exactly his applications are.

If, TSDTexan, you're largely viewing this as ranged striking, your applicable kicks and targets are different than if you're viewing it as closer trapping, which is different again from if you're viewing this as largely grappling...

Right now though, I don't think anyone really understands what sort of "stuff" you're trying to pull out of the form. I mean, for my own part, there are very few applications that I personally practice that seem like they lend themselves to any sort of snap front kick at this point. Which makes me wonder what I'm missing from your interpretation.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> I mean, for my own part, there are very few applications that I personally practice that seem like they lend themselves to any sort of snap front kick at this point


 The easiest way to find out would be to actually test it. Do the cross stance in front of someone in a fighting stance. You'll know which ones aren't the best choice of attack right away.  Anything that feels off balance or feels as if the person standing in front of you is going to knock your head off, throw you to the ground, or kick your ribs are most likely not the "secret / hidden" technique that follows.  The OP can try this from various ranges to see what works.


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## Koshiki (Oct 22, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> The easiest way to find out would be to actually test it. Do the cross stance in front of someone in a fighting stance. You'll know which ones aren't the best choice of attack right away.



Except that we're talking not just about kicks from this stance, but specifically kicks from this stance at this specific point in the kata Naihanchi Shodan. Depending on what the practitioner is doing at that point in their interpretation, the kicks that can be added will vary greatly, strategically.

Since I don't think any of us know what exactly Texan is trying to get out of the movements, it's hard to say what kind of kick can be just added in, and goes far beyond which kicks can be comfortably thrown with good balance from a certain stance.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Except that we're talking not just about kicks from this stance, but specifically kicks from this stance at this specific point in the kata Naihanchi Shodan. Depending on what the practitioner is doing at that point in their interpretation, the kicks that can be added will vary greatly, strategically.
> 
> Since I don't think any of us know what exactly Texan is trying to get out of the movements, it's hard to say what kind of kick can be just added in, and goes far beyond which kicks can be comfortably thrown with good balance from a certain stance.


 
Which kind of gets back to my original question, which one should always try to be conscious of when internalizing kata.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Well... I am curious as to why Choki Motobu would teach there is a front snap kick there, (at the Kosa-dachi before the next movement) to his students.

If.
1. Chosei is not lying.
2. And _Nihon Denryu Heiho Motobu Kenpo _still is teaching this way.

Then you have one tradition that is claiming a variation of kata different from the others.

Of what tactical or strategic value is there in that kick at that time. I suspect the kick is an entry, and if ignored, potentially a fight ender. Choki had no qualms about groin strikes.


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## TimoS (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Well... I am curious as to why Choki Motobu would teach there is a front snap kick there, (at the Kosa-dachi before the next movement) to his students.


Where does he say that there is a front snap kick?


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2015)

Zack Cart said:


> Strange too, since I always think of Naihanchi as being just about the oomphiest series I practice or have seen...
> 
> Not my style, per se, but I saw this a while back didn't think it was too bad, in terms of oomph. Passion I can't speak to, but oomph, perhaps...



That's oomph. Nice, crisp oomph, too.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

TimoS said:


> Where does he say that there is a front snap kick?



Choki taught this to Chosei.
Chosei teaches this in a Tsunami video about Choki Motobu.


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## Buka (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Passion has to be part of an instruction manual?
> Since when?
> 
> I am curious about when that tradition got started.
> ...



I believe there should be passion (or oomph) in all Martial training, in all martial movements of a striking art, yes.

I'm not sure when that tradition got started, but my guess would be from the very onset of Martial Arts.

I do not consider any Martial Art a performance art. I consider every Martial Art a fighting Art (as well as a whole lot more than that, obviously) But, to me, in striking arts you will use your strikes exactly the way you train them each and every time. If there is no passion in your movements on a consistent basis - should the oomph ever hit the fan one might find oneself on the wrong side of said fan.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Ok.

So here is a strategic value to the kick.
1. Entry
2. Valid attack threat (kick to the groin)
3. Which is also a feint, designed to draw a block from the target.
4. Hitake the blocking hand while exacuting a knife hand shuto to the throat or temple, followed up immediately with an reinforced elbow strike.

So flowchart this.
Is target's groin open to a kick?
Yes.                              No.
-->kick it.  /   Resume kata at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.

Does target block kick?-----------Yes/No both resume at KosaDachi&Hitake blocking arm.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Ok.
> 
> So here is a strategic value to the kick.
> 1. Entry
> ...


I see where my confusion is, in relation to your original question.  I don't look at my kung fu forms in that manner.  My forms are like a dictionary and I can take any of those "words" and make different sentences based on the context of what is going on around me.  For me forms are techniques that are done in the context of learning so there's no flow chart based on what if something happens.  When I think of deploying a technique then I think of the "what if this happens" scenarios.

It sounds to me that question is more about deployment of the next possible attack from a specific stance, than a "hidden" technique within a kata.  I would think the kata would remain the same unless you were adding or removing a technique from a kata.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

JowGaWolf said:


> I see where my confusion is, in relation to your original question.  I don't look at my kung fu forms in that manner.  My forms are like a dictionary and I can take any of those "words" and make different sentences based on the context of what is going on around me.  For me forms are techniques that are done in the context of learning so there's no flow chart based on what if something happens.  When I think of deploying a technique then I think of the "what if this happens" scenarios.
> 
> It sounds to me that question is more about deployment of the next possible attack from a specific stance, than a "hidden" technique within a kata.  I would think the kata would remain the same unless you were adding or removing a technique from a kata.



Well actually I agree with you here.
The whole kata can be a single fight or a series of samples.
By sample I mean like a dj with a mixing board.
A series of snipped sounds assigned to buttons and the dj can layer them down across a track.

A snippet of technique can be used, and then from another spot of the kata another sample, all based on the opportunities presented in the fight.

Nothing prevents both views from being utilities


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Choki taught this to Chosei.
> Chosei teaches this in a Tsunami video about Choki Motobu.


 
I'm not buying that-if it's  *The Karate of Choki Motobu with Chosei Motobu and Takegi Inaba *you're talking about, I'll have to give it a look see. In conversations with him, though, Chosei Motobu was pretty insistent that his father emphasized kicks _after _punches-there is no punch preceding the cross-step to lead to a kick. He used kicks, but sparingly-as a finishing or follow up technique, meant to knock someone off their feet. Motobu ryu was/is a close-range style, with a great deal of grappling, and powerful punches-even "blocks" are really just attacks on the opponents limbs to prepare a follow up punch...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> I'm not buying that-if it's  *The Karate of Choki Motobu with Chosei Motobu and Takegi Inaba *you're talking about, I'll have to give it a look see. In conversations with him, though, Chosei Motobu was pretty insistent that his father emphasized kicks _after _punches-there is no punch preceding the cross-step to lead to a kick. He used kicks, but sparingly-as a finishing or follow up technique, meant to knock someone off their feet. Motobu ryu was/is a close-range style, with a great deal of grappling, and powerful punches-even "blocks" are really just attacks on the opponents limbs to prepare a follow up punch...



Here is the DVD

The section where he deals with the kick while in kosa dachi starts at 20 minutes 52 seconds, right after he deals with vertical blocks.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

Here are some screenshots where he says the kosadachi is a hidden front snap kick technique.  Point blank says to keep the kick in mind when you practice the kata.

 

 

 

 

 Here is that sequence.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Here is the DVD
> View attachment 19598


Yeah. That's it.

I get home first week of Nov.....if I get time, I'll give it another look...

....while it's hard to believe that *anyone's* Japanese is worse than mine, in preparation for the time when I eventually say, "_*Nah*, that's *not* what he said,_-given that it might not be until early next year, you should consider some things that I've said already, because there are ways you could kick from there-or punch, or throw-and it's likely that he was talking about something _derived_ not *within* the kata. All of Motobu ryu is the three naihanchi and some _ippon kumite_. Originally, Motobu ryu-motobu udundi- didn't have naihanchi-Choki sensei added it. It did have a breathing exercise resembling _sanchin_ kata, but that's not relevant to our discussion here....in any case considering your question, consider this:

Motobu ryu fighting philosophy is "closest weapon strikes." the lead foot and hand kick or strike.

There are no "blocks." Blocks are strikes to set up a strike-often with that same lead hand.

_ Practice the form with a turn at each cross step

*Where is the enemy?*._


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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)




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## TSDTexan (Oct 22, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Yeah. That's it.
> 
> I get home first week of Nov.....if I get time, I'll give it another look...
> 
> ...



It might be said that Choki did the single unabridged kata.
Or Nihanchi 1  + 2 + 3 as a single form.
He did also sometimes teach passai in the dojo.


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## elder999 (Oct 22, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> It might be said that Choki did the single unabridged kata.
> Or Nihanchi 1  + 2 + 3 as a single form.
> He did also sometimes teach passai in the dojo.


Ya haven't once seen me reference "naihanchi '_shodan'"_, or "tekki _nidan_", so what's your point?

I mean, they say he also knew gojushiho, but it's like I said. Motobu ryu *is* _naihanchi_, and some combinations..

Anyway, you'd be better off paying attention to what I'm saying, than I'll ever be paying any attention to what your're saying-and I'm out of here until I get around to watching that DVD again.......


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## TSDTexan (Oct 23, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Ya haven't once seen me reference "naihanchi '_shodan'"_, or "tekki _nidan_", so what's your point?
> 
> I mean, they say he also knew gojushiho, but it's like I said. Motobu ryu *is* _naihanchi_, and some combinations..
> 
> Anyway, you'd be better off paying attention to what I'm saying, than I'll ever be paying any attention to what your're saying-and I'm out of here until I get around to watching that DVD again.......



Point #1 _but it's like I said. Motobu ryu _*is *_naihanchi, and some combinations.._
What you said here.. is why Motobu Ryu is my favorite Karatedo. Very very simple, and very very effective. 


Maybe this will help, Perhaps you can hear and understand Chosei better then I can.
I would have been really happy if they had just enabled a subtitles screen in the root menus, and let me read the kanji or katakana of what is being said.

The section on the kick begins at the six second mark. (ish)


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## TimoS (Oct 23, 2015)

I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55 



). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.


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## JowGaWolf (Oct 23, 2015)

TimoS said:


> I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55
> 
> 
> 
> ). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.


My brain just exploded.  That form has some familiar movements that reminds me of my small tiger form in kung fu.   I'll have to see if I have time to chop up the video and add the comparisons that are in small tiger.

He is also the only one I've seen (from videos posted in MT) that appears to knows about the technique used when transitioning between stances. In terms of stance transitioning there is a hidden technique, but most people do the transition without the technique. You guys probably know it already but he did 6 trips and 1 sweep.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 23, 2015)

TimoS said:


> I just spoke with one of my sensei about this and he said that according to Chosei Motobu there is a maegeri in there, similar to e.g. Seisan (here at about 0:55
> 
> 
> 
> ). However, Chosei Motobu seems to be the only one saying that, even among those who learned it from his father, so I highly doubt whether that application actually came from Choki Motobu.



Well.. I sense some genuine doubt.  I have fired off a question to a contact in Chosei's org. I suspect he did learn it from his dad. Why else would it be in a video specifical made about his father's karate?

Going off topic on a very specific subject matter documentary seems unjappanese. They tend to be brief and direct on the dvds that are historical. To include technique or application from outside the ryu is pretty unfathomable. 

I hope to have answer In my email in the next few days.


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## TimoS (Oct 24, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> Why else would it be in a video specifical made about his father's karate?


Why do so many people, Okinawans included, have questionable lineages? Are we to accept their word for it?


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## TSDTexan (Oct 24, 2015)

TimoS said:


> Why do so many people, Okinawans included, have questionable lineages? Are we to accept their word for it?



Lineage is overrated. At least as the credentialist method is commonly employed.

It doesn't guarantee a quality instructor or prove complete transmission of an art. From the past to the present. 
Lineage could be viewed differently. 

In fact, I have come to my own understanding about lineage.

A martial arts practioner does not automatically have a lineage. He or she has a lineage potential.

This is my doctrine.

*You do not have a lineage until your students have become teachers.*

The other thing is this.

Founders or Soke type folks of a given new style that work are often unable to prove their background, either in part or in whole.
Partly because they are promiscuous students. They tend to have more than one teacher, and they create more techniques then regular students.

My bigger concern than spotty lineage(s) is does the curriculum work at all in the real world or is it really just unicorn fairy dancing fist style.

The arts have become formalized and very western.
In the case of judo that was clearly beneficial.

But go back prior then about 300 years and all TMA lineages becomes smoke and mirrors.
This why I have turned lineage around. It is every student who becimes a teacher's job to make a functional art. He has a lineage if he manages to propagate his art two generations down stream.
After a point, We cannot know historical myth from historical truth. We can know who we are, who our students are...and perhaps even know who their students are. We can inspect our students and grand students.

We can visit a school and see it in operation.  And view what kind of students it builds.
We cannot "know" for fact any lineage beyond those who are alive now,  that can be contacted, or have been caught in the lens of camera showing a student with a teacher in a proper setting


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## Koshiki (Oct 26, 2015)

Sometimes I'm grateful that I can just say, "Well, my teacher learned from some guy no one has ever heard of named Horace Littlefield, but beyond that, neither I nor anyone else really knows."

Takes a lot of weight off, acknowledging that you're nothing but a mutt with absolutely no pedigree, verifiable or otherwise. The it becomes a question, not of historical legitimacy, because there apparently is none, but of, "well, can ya fight, and can ya show me how?"


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## elder999 (Oct 26, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> This is my doctrine.
> 
> *You do not have a lineage until your students have become teachers.*



Sorry-this is a rather objectionable notion, as solid as the idea may seem to you. Once again, words have meaning:
*______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________*

*lineage*
_noun_ lin·e·age \ˈli-nē-ij _also_ ˈli-nij\
: the people who were in someone's family in past times
*Full Definition of LINEAGE*
1
a *:* *descent in a line from a common progenitor*

b *:* derivation
2
*:*  a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; _especially_ *:*  such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder
The other thing is this.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

"Lineage" relates entirely to what came before, not what comes after-almost completely opposite what you're saying. One has "lineage" almost automatically-I can no more help being in the lineages of Antonio Pereira and Mas Oyama than I can    deny being in the lineage of John, Jason, Louis, Nathan, Aaron, Aaron and Jeffrey Cuffee-*and*, saying that one deosn't have lineage as a student of martial arts until one has students is much like saying that I don't have Cuffee lineage until I have children.

In short, it's more B.S.

There's some truth in the rest of what you say, and your  "bigger concen" *is* a functional way of looking at the issue, but lineages-are important. 

An example that I like to use is what is called, in Miyama ryu, quite simply, a "jujutsu bow." Most Miyama ryu practitioners might  know that this half-kneeling bow came from the founder's (Antonio Pereiera) study of Sosuishitsu ryu jujutsu-what they mostly don't know (because it isn't taught) is that this half-kneeling bow is the one performed by Japanese warriors in the field wearing armor....a small piece of evidence of the "lineage" of Miyama ryu...it's descent from Sosuishitsu ryu-among other arts, and something that can't be helped by the MIyama ryu student,  even if one never studies Sosuishitsu ryu, as I have.

But go back prior then about 300 years and all TMA lineages becomes smoke and mirrors.
This why I have turned lineage around. It is every student who becimes a teacher's job to make a functional art. He has a lineage if he manages to propagate his art two generations down stream.
After a point, We cannot know historical myth from historical truth. We can know who we are, who our students are...and perhaps even know who their students are. We can inspect our students and grand students.



TSDTexan said:


> We can visit a school and see it in operation.  And view what kind of students it builds.
> We cannot "know" for fact any lineage beyond those who are alive now,  that can be contacted, or have been caught in the lens of camera showing a student with a teacher in a proper setting



Which simply isn't anymore true than saying that I can't know that I'm descended from those Cuffees that came before me because they are merely names in a book...


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## TSDTexan (Oct 27, 2015)

elder999 said:


> Sorry-this is a rather objectionable notion, as solid as the idea may seem to you. Once again, words have meaning:
> *______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________*
> 
> *lineage*
> ...



My point is simple.
You only hold the "past" of a lineage when you are a member only of it. Until you pass it foward, the lineage (within you) will die with you, while other branches may move on.

You or anyone else are no longer merely the potential or "past" of a lineage when you have passed on the line into decendant artists. While you are in the moment of trainging up the next generation you are creating the present of your lineage.

A student is a bridge being built between two generations.
A master is a finished bridge.

One could argue that mastery is not achieved until one can not only "do" it, but correctly teach another how to "do".
Because teaching others brings a whole new level of understanding to the journeyman.

Yes. Words do have meaning. I agree with you there.

And in fact, within living languages, there is drift and creep on the value and meaning of words. They are not absolutely frozen forever. That would be a pretty solid indicator that a language has most likely become a dead language.

While you think my rationale is BS. I firmly believe it.
Yes, there is such a thing as lineage. It can exist.
However, what it means, as to what is actually taught from school to school, tradition to tradition or artform to artform
Has no standard of meaning at all.

It becomes very subjective.

A genealogy of masters, a long grey line, of students and teachers teaching arts of war that change over time almost like the arts were alive and growing themselves.

Fathers and sons, not by blood but by purpose and will.


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## elder999 (Oct 27, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> My point is simple.
> .



Your point is *crap*.


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## TSDTexan (Oct 27, 2015)

That video is pretty offensive.
Someone such as yourself should know better.

I think I will be taking a break from MT for a while because of this. I think you have hurt my little feelings sempai.


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## elder999 (Oct 27, 2015)

TSDTexan said:


> That video is pretty offensive.
> Someone such as yourself should know better.
> 
> I think I will be taking a break from MT for a while because of this. I think you have hurt my little feelings sempai.



Mmm'okay, Don't forget to take your little red wagon with you.....buh-bye!


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## Koshiki (Oct 27, 2015)

Ahem. Ignoring the past few posts...

1. lineal descent from an ancestor; ancestry or extraction
2. the line of descendants of a particular ancestor
3. a group of individuals tracing descent from a common ancestor; _especially_*:*  such a group of persons whose common ancestor is regarded as its founder
4. descent in a line from a common progenitor
5. descent from a particular ancestor; ancestry.
6. The descendants of a common ancestor considered to be the founder of the line.

It actually does go both ways... A lineage is a line segment, an individual is a point somewhere along that line. You cannot be an ancestor or link in that lineage until you have passed it on, but you are every much as much a part of that lineage the day you start training as is a child the day the are born, even if they themselves never have children. It becomes your lineage, just as the lineage or family of a child becomes their lineage or family when they are born.

It's not as though you are not a member of a family tree or lineage until you have kids of your own, or in the extreme situation postulated, grandchildren. By that logic, my grandparents are part of my family tree, but my parents, aunts, uncle, cousins, sister and myself are not...

*But, yeah, anyway, what kicks beside a sidekick might be applicable here?*


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## Buka (Oct 27, 2015)

There was this guy... a long time ago. He really loved martial Arts, dedicated his life to it. Wanted to help people, share all that he had learned. It was a hard road, but he never waivered, never gave up, kept working, kept learning and developing, kept teaching. Some that he taught fell by the wayside. Others, stoked the fire. They sacrificed, worked like dogs improved and taught - becausing teaching is key. No teaching, no Martial Arts.

This has come all the way down to you. May it continue.


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