# Ten Jin Do and Tong Il Lo Test Revisited



## foxmc (Aug 13, 2004)

FTD, I am not posting to proclaim that you are incorrect in your opinions, nor that you are wrong in any of your thoughts or beliefs, as opinions, thoughts, and beliefs are not wrong, merely different in each individual. However, for the record, we are going to set some of the facts straight so that there is at least a FAIR representation of what exactly went on at this promotional test that you attended. This shall be a combination of the threads that you posted regarding these systems that I will be addressing.

 First of all, Deflecting_The_Storm stated in another thread that you were only able to attend for about 10 minutes, yet you were able to view both the Baek Ho Kwan (White Tiger system, these would be the three guys that you were saying did quite well; the man who created his own system), as well as the Ten Jin Do evaluation. How is this possible? The Baek Ho Kwan test lasted over 2 hours, and the Ten Jin Do evaluation wasn't until after.  If you saw this on video, then you had no opportunity to see first-hand what was going on. Secondly, there are some skewed statements regarding ages and ranks. First of all, Mr. Mayo, the "child black belt" of whom you spoke, is not 7 years old, he is 12. On top of that, you stated that he would've been testing for 2nd Degree had he not hurt his hand. Mr. Mayo has clearly stated upon many occasions that he will not test for 2nd degree until he has had the time and experience put in to earn such a degree. He was never going to be testing for 2nd degree when you said he was. There are time requirements for each belt besides the fact. Also, what kind of political belief is it that you cannot give a 12-year-old a black belt? He has endured training and dedication since he was 4 years old (that would make his total training about 8 years to all non-mathematical majors), and you are saying that you cannot award such a rank to such a young gentleman. That is, in essence, saying that he does not deserve the rank. Perhaps had you gotten to know him, you would see that the rank was not issued due as a factor of age, but as a factor of experience and maturity. 

  Regarding board breaking. In Tong Il Lo, board breaks are not used as a method of "movie star martial arts" as I like to call those who use it as a flashy effect. It is used as a gauge. A 10"x12" board of white pine #2, is a very close equivalent to the same amount of resistance as a rib of an adult male of around 140 pounds. It is used as a gauge of power and technique. In theory (which by the way, is what ALL self-defense is based upon), if you can break one of those boards, you should be capable of breaking a rib. 2 boards = 2 ribs, etc.

 You also stated that the Ten Jin Do testee was fighting three assailants. Two brown belts from his own system and a third degree black belt. First of all, how did you know one of the brown belts was his wife from a video? I never recall him mentioning anything of that sort. A student is a student. Secondly, I'm sure the other gentleman is appreciative of your promoting him, but the black belt was a 2nd dan, not a 3rd. As far as the sparring goes, many questions are usually raised about why not "go for knockouts" if this is a self-defense test? Does the safety of your sparring partners, as well as yourself, not mean anything? Why would you want to maim someone who is your ally and is only helping you to demonstrate your style of self-defense?

 You also mentioned in your "Politics, Belt Rankings, and Truth" thread that "no one is just going to stand there and let me throw them". This is quite an observation, as I'm sure some would never have thought of such a thing. The point of the exercise was to DEMONSTRATE the technique, not to demolish your opponent. Sure, any self defense needs realism, but with realism, every attack and every situation is different, is it not? An evaluation is simply meant to test that which has been learned at the current level, to decide whether or not a person may be promoted to the next level of learning. However, I agree that any technique should be effective whether standing or in motion.

 Third, upon the definition of "Tong Il Lo". It is a korean phrase that, when translated, means "Path to Unity" or "Way of Unification". This is also the name of a bridge in Korea that unites two areas. Lo is not meant to be a chinese term added to a TKD form. It is called this because it unifies 5 different systems of martial arts to be Tong Il Lo. It is also called this because the core value is family and friendship, and it is about uniting people, not merely systems.

 I have been training in TIL for ten years now, and I don't have any problem explaining any confusion about the way things are done, or why they are done. Explanation and understanding is the whole reason forums like these and many martial arts flourish these days. If you have any questions, just ask before assuming things, don't give others a false picture of what you could not understand or explain. Questions are a key to knowledge!


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 13, 2004)

First off shall I say that I was there. I taped the whole thing and I showed it to a number of individuals including FTD. I asked him to go, he was there for 10 mins and then had to leave.  I showed him the tape later on. . All of the things discussed were opinions discussed between the two of us. I made the mention of the 12 yr old boy who looked like he was 7. Thats an opinion. Thats our opinion. I saw the young man and thats exactly what I thought. How can he defend and or teach at the level which has been given to him? Thats how I feel. Thats how he felt. We can say that if we want to. And the comment was made because of how small he is. Can he defend himself vs a man who is 6'0 250? IMHO a person with that rank should be able too. So I have to get to know someone for the rank on their belt? Isnt that why the belt system was invented? To establish rank and/or give the paying customers some sort of award between each level in their training. The board breaking. Hmm yes all self-defense is based on theory, well it is until you use it for real. But I guess noone would ever test it would they? You know there is this great art that almost gives a scientific conclusion for everything a person does and how you can control their body and the do's and do not's. Wait a minute, its called Kenpo!!!! Once again this is my opinion. But I am sure that its just not "theory". Breaking boards simluates breaking ribs. Really? I didnt know that ribs were stack on top of each other. And hmm fighting a man who is 140 pounds. Wow, thats a small man. How about training in some tactics that focus on proper techniques to break ribs. You know, how much pressure it takes, what kind of hand/fist movement it takes. I can break a board I can break a mans rib, yeah if his rib is out in the open, unguarded and flat like a huge target. Maybe if that training was focused on other issues, it wouldnt bother me so much. But it really does. And here is what everyone reading has been waiting for. "Boards dont hit Back". 2nd degree ,3rd degree, it should of been easy for the 4th dan to take him down. But if I remeber correctly it was the 2nd dan who took him down with a scissors leg take down. A manuever that is almost impossible to pull but (I dont want to mention his name without his permission) he is awesome. I have seen him before. But Mr. WG  is excellent. He gave it all he had with some control. Unlike the man testing. Thats what should happen. For testing of a higher belt rank control shouldnt be an issue. Using the proper amount of force should be a piece of cake. Well of course IMHO. And talking to others around me, to successfully be trained and be tested you should be able to give it your all. Both parties, those being tested and those who are part of the test. Mr. WG went out there and did what he was suppose to do. How you train or practice is how you will fight. If not pushed to the edge then, when it comes you will go back to what you originally knew. And we all dont want that. And demostrating the technique. Why not explain why and how you do things? And noone will just let you throw them, show or explain how and or why you would do the things you do. What would happen if..... answer those questions. Show what a person would really do if they did this type of attack. The better the training dummy, the more you learn.  If you come at me with a punch that is 80% slower that what you can throw and has half of the strength, than thats what I will be prepared for. But maybe, just maybe if you threw it faster and harder then maybe I would be prepared for something more dangerous. Thats a theory right? What if its proven? Sorry I dont know what thats called, in fact I have no idea what I am talking about. But its making sense right. Because I do know, and I have see what happens to those who arent trained the right way. Its like giving them a gun with no bullets. It does nothing for them. In fact it hurts them. Gives them a false sense of security and confidence. And as for explaining the confusion, if the GM of your art is heading the board that advanced the testee, what does that say about his art, if the testee looked horrible while testing? If he approves that, than what does that say about his art? Of course, thats in theory, you know what all self defense is based upon. NO thats common sense. Of course this is my OPINION. Once again, thank you.


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## foxmc (Aug 13, 2004)

DTS, thank you for your input, I do agree you raise some extremely interesting points, and while some I can agree with and some I do question, it is very honorable of you to defend your friend's opinions as well as your own. In TIL, we have a tenet called Honor, which I'm sure you already know, basically means being true to yourself and what you believe in. What you believe is very solid and thought out, and I respect that. I did not mean to come across as accusatory in my statements, however I was very much taken aback when I first read FTD's posts regarding the test. In my own opinion, I thought Mr. Ten Jin Do did quite a decent job in his testing. It's not really my place to say such a thing, being as I have never had to create my own test for a higher rank, so whether it was contributive to him having set up his own test requirements above his normal abilities, which is understandable, all tests should push you to your limits, and then some, but it may also have been that he wasn't under the greatest of physical strain that day. I'm not trying to make excuses or defenses for anyone, I am only trying to say that the test itself was something of a new experience. It's not all the time that you see an evaluation for a newer eclectic system, and I guess every one will be different. I don't go out looking for faults in people, I try to find the positive and strengths in each person and bring those out as best as I can.

 I hope I have not offended either of you, I just wanted to make sure that the facts were straight before questions were raised. Sometimes, as good as us martial artists try to be, there is that subconscious prejudism that sometimes comes across in something we say because we each come from a different background of teaching and literacy, so not everything comes out the way we intend. It is so hard to attach emotion or feeling to typed terms. Anyways, I do understand that boards don't hit back, as long as its understood that its merely a test to gauge power, not a showman's contest. Also, I fully believe that you should practice how you are going to act in the street. The unfortunate thing is that nowadays, its not all about the waiver anymore. It's crazy, ya know? If I had it my way, it would probably be back to the bruised ribs and cracked noses. I mean not that I enjoy injuring others, but pain is the best teacher. Pain is necessary. What realism is there without pain. You must train with a threat, train with pain, and train to exhaustion. After all, in the street, everything's out the window anyways, and ultimately gross technique will prevail over precise technique. In my own classes at least, I am very thorough with the way I explain techniques to my students, their history, the reason they work, how they work, why they work, and how they would be most effective, etc. I feel that a student should always ask questions. Heck, if I don't know something about a technique, I'm not going to just fabricate an answer, but I'll sure try to find out the answer. Anyways, please let me know if you have any questions that you would like answered, and I'll do my best to answer them, alrighty? Take care!

 Sincerely,
 Mr. WG


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## Humble Instructor (Aug 17, 2004)

I agree with everything that foxmc had to say, as well as Waco.

Let me clarify a few additional points, as well as offer some defense of individuals and systems.  Up front let me say that none of this is intended as an attack, but rather as something to make people think before they act, and also to simply fill in some of the missing pieces.

First of all let me clarify some things about Grand Master McDonald.  GM McDonald did not invent nor has he ever claimed to invent Tong Il Lo.  Rather, he, along with Tong Il Lo's co founder, the late Gilbert Narvaez, combined their years of experience and knowledge of several traditional martial arts systems to form Tong Il Lo.  Tong Il Lo represents techniques from ITF Tae Kwon Do, Chinese Kenpo, Aikido, Danzai Jujitsu, and Muai Thai.  The two gentlemen identified the strongest elements from each of these systems and blended the techniques into the unified self-defense centered system of Tong Il Lo.

Tong Il Lo started out with no name as a system, but rather as the self-defense part of the curriculum for the Hot Shots Self Defense and Safety Awareness Program, which was inducted into the Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame as Youth Development Program of the Year.  Over time, the techniques evolved into what is now Tong Il Lo.  Tong Il Lo has never been nor is it now stagnant, but rather continues to evolve.  Like all young arts, and GM MCDonald is the first to say that Tong Il Lo is a young art, it is continually evaluated and improved upon.  The entire group of instructors under GM McDonald has been working for almost 3 years to produce the soon to be released 3rd edition of the curriculum book, and it probably won't be the last.

I understand that all are entitled to their opinion, but don't you owe it to yourself to gather ALL of the relevant facts before forming an opinion?

I personally have been involved with Tong Il Lo for over 9 years, and am the hightest ranked black belt under Grand Master William McDonald.  In Addition to teaching for the System, I have served as Texas State Director, Youth Development Coordinator, and now currently serve as physical consultant, meaning that I apply my kinesiology degree and my years as an athletic trainer and certified personal trainer as one of the many measures of techniques that we drag each technique through before adopting it.  As far as the youth development part, I have over 17 years proffessional experience in various phases of youth development outside of martial arts including YMCA, municipal recreation (which included extensive gang prevention and intervention), and i am a 40 Assets youth development trainer, as well as a Certified Court Appointed Mediator.  I previously have a background in Danzai Jujitsu, under the late Gilbert Narvaez, Mizu Wa Ki Jujitsu, under Sensei David Earnest, Tae Kwon Do under David Edwards, and American Karate under Grand Master Richard Morris, plus wrestling in college, as well as numerous seminars, training camps, and specialty training, totalling 2 months short of 21 years experience in martial arts.  

I have also worked professionally as head of security, including training duties,  for 2 night clubs, as well as security for 2 others, and have worked as a bodyguard.  This part of my career as a martial artist totaled just over 6 years, and due to keeping up with incident logs, I can tell you that I have broken up over 400 altercations, including one's involving beer bottles, pool sticks, bar stools, and in one instance a knife.  

I mention all of this this to let you know that I have had opportunity to actually apply the theories extensively in regards to both technique and youth development!  I also completed 17 hours in the education department in addition to all of the sprts and developmental physical education pedagogy courses required for my degree.  I have no intention of tooting my own horn, but since you don't seem to bother to find ALL the facts before forming opinions, I have presented them for myself rather than be the victim of incomplete opinion forming, based on conjecture.

Next point.  You say that your friend(s) have never heard of William McDonald nor Tong Il Lo?  This only goes to prove 1 thing, and its not your fault.  Many martial artists who are trained in one school are exposed only to groups and instructors who are affiliated with them or associates.  This proves nothing, and I will prove that!

The question was posed "what is American Street Karate?  Check out Grand Master Passmore's website and you will find your answers.  He maintains a very well designed, highly informative website that describe his class offerings.  In addition to his many years experience, including instructing military and law enforcement personnel, GM Passmore is the President of the Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame.  And before you go saying that you haven't heard of that, let me name a few of the inductees such as Pat Burleson, Allen Steen, Roy Kurban, Won Park, Jhoon Rhee, Troy Dorsey, the Machado's, Chuck Norris, and I could go on for pages naming elite martial artists who have been inducted at the ceremonies over the past few years.

To further prove this point, you asked about American Karate?  I'm sorry, but are you really that out of touch with the martial arts world in the US?  The founder of American Karate was GM Allen Steen who with GM Pat Burleson took their training in Tae Kwon Do (which incidentally these men were among the first TKD Black Belts in the US under GM Jhoon Rhee).  Their training (though I don't know the exact sequence of events) evolved into American Karate.  The AKBBA which is one of the largest and oldest governing bodies in American martial arts is at the top of this system.  If you run the roster of high Dan American Karate stylists, you will quickly run into a gammit of names you or your friend(s) have heard of and know as the greats.

Now, I've told you about Tong Il Lo and 2 other systems, and GM Passmore, let me tell you about my friend and Grand Master, William McDonald.  If my tone gets a little defensive on this part I apologize, but you have insulted someone that you are not in a position to insult!!!!!!!!!!!!

When Grand Master McDonald and Gilbert Narvaez designed the curriculum that evolved into Tong Il Lo, GM McDonald held respectively- a black belt in tracey kenpo, with additional training in the Parker kenpo system, with certified instructor status- a 3rd dan in WTF Tae Kwon Do, again certified instructor,
a 4th dan in ITF Tae Kwon Do, certified Master Instructor, and among his instructors in the ITF, let it be known that he had the honor and privledge to train directly with General Choi Hong Hi- Instructor level in Muai Thai, Master Level in Kobudo (weapons), as well as additional training Hapkido.  By that time GM McDonald had served as a hand to hand instructor for the US Army and for law enforcement agencies.
Grand Master McDonald Has highly extensive experience in night club security as has worked as a bodyguard, in including VIP assignments.  At the time Mister Gilbert Narvaez held dan ranking in Danzai Jujitsu and  Aikijitsu as well as high ranking in Hun Gar, and 5 Animal Kung Fu..  Both founders have extensive competition backgrounds as well.

With the early background in place, let me state this.  GM McDonald never and I mean never claimed any title nor rank that he did not duly earn through years of hard work and qualified testing.  For the first 8.5 years of Tong Il Lo he claimed, as he does today, to be the co-founder of the system.  When he founded Tong Il Lo, when people asked his rank, he said that he founded this system, but he only claimed his 4th dan (highest at that time) as his belt rank.  He was later duly tested and promoted to 6th dan in Tae Kwon Do by Grand Master Butch Alish Tasen.

Under the recommendation of several 9th dan, Korean Tae Kwon Do Masters,
including Grand Master Sin Il Choi, a former personal bodyguard of General Choi, GM MCDonald dissolved Hot Shots, and Survivors(the adult program) and after already 5 years of evolution, finally named the system (see foxmc post for those details).  So in his usual humble, and unassuming fashion, GM McDonald began to rapidly absorb and utilize the recommendations and input of these esteemed grand masters as well as those of high dans in other systems such as Shihan Dean Chapman, GM Anthony Sandoval (oh in case you and your friends haven't heard of him he holds GM status in 7 traditional martial arts as well as master and dan rankings in numerous systems, and was trained in Okinawa by some of the most elite names in martial arts history, and oh by the way, was the second highest decorated Marine to emerge from the Vietnam War).  My point is that GM McDonald not only accepted, but asked for input and advice from those martial artists whom he respected.

It should also be noted that Grand Master McDonald has over 32 years experience in martial arts, and has trined continuously since age 7.

A few years ago, GM McDonald rekindled his friendship with Grandmaster Pat Burleson  and began making even more changes.  He also consulted his long time acquaintance, Bill Wallace (do ya know who he is?)  GM Wallace put GM McDonald in touch with Professor Marty Kale.  After a time, GM Wallace, GM Kale and several others began to strongly push GM McDonald to prepare a test that would provide for official recognition for his system, and if he passed his exam would finally officially award him high dan status for Tong Il Lo.

A little over a year ago, GM McDonald with several of his students and instructors, at the US Martial Arts Hall of Fame event, presented his skills and Tong Il Lo  before the test board of the
International Martial Arts Council of America, which is headed by Professor Marty Kale.

He did not request to test for a particular rank, but rather left it to the board to decide what rank he deserved.  The test board consisted of Professor Marty Kale, Dr. Dan Netherland, GM Frank Corbo, GM John Rubiano, GM Russel McCarty, GM Mark Shuey, GM TR Crimi, and Professor Wayne Carman and GM Butch Alish Tasen.  This esteemed board awarded him official recognition of the Tong Il Lo system, and awarded him 10th degree Soke rank in Tong Il Lo.

So, as you can see, GM McDonald and Tong Il Lo did not rise as a result of just another "wanna be" deciding to make up something, give it a name, and call himself Grand Master.  Additionally it should be noted that GM McDonald has been twice inducted into the Texas Martial Arts Hall of Fame as Master of the Year, and has been inducted into the US Martial Arts Hall of Fame twice as Master of the Year.  This year, Tong Il Lo was inducted into the hall of fame as outstanding new system in the United States.

So now I ask you, whoever you are, and I ask your friend whoever he or she is, who are you and what have you accomplished in comparison to Soke, Grand Master William McDonald?  And how dare you play off American Street Karate, and especially American Karate?  I think that you need to get out there more, and find out what is actually out there, rather than limiting yourself to a narrow scope.

Again I apologize for the strong and at times sarcastic tone of the previous section, but I was offended by your lack of research before you made the statements that you did!  The Grand Masters mentioned are far to humble men to hit back so hard, so out of my deep respect for all of them I rush to their defense!

Let me address one more issue.  The 12 year old black belt (who you claimed was 7).  You say that's how it appeared to you? again I say you need to research a little more before you publicly attack someone, especially a child who is an over-acheiver in martial arts, school, and in life.  Had you been a little more observant for facts, rather than fuel for attack, you might have noticed that his father is under 5'0" tall and that might have been your first clue.  Had you been observant, or as GM Passmore suggested, bothered to ask someone, you would have discovered that unlike the Adult black belts in Tong Il Lo, who have gold writing on their belts, this student has silver on his, which signifies Junior Black Belt.  This is intentionally intended to acknowledge that the child is under age to be a black belt, but that they have attained the skill required to pass the same test as any adult black belt.  Can he defend against a 250 lb man?  No (but could wreak havoc on his groin!) but why should a child not be allowed at least a modified recognition for having acheived the same as his adult counterparts.  So it is stated, no one in Tong Il Lo receives a full black belt under age 16, and before you bash that, check around and you will find that many traditional systems use that same cut off.

This young man has exceptional skill and is able to independantly lead and control a classroom including adult students.  I also want to know where you get your definition of black belt?  In Tong Il Lo, and in most legitimate systems, the 1st dan, while certainly an acheivement and rite of passage, simply signifies that the wearer is now a good student; that they have mastered the very basics well enough to create the foundation for what will become the building.   And in case your wondering, the average time to get a black belt in Tong Il Lo has proven to be around 6-6.5 years, and to my knowledge, no one has ever acheived white to black in Tong Il Lo in under 5 years.  

Let me further state this- There has never been a dan rank awarded in Tong Il Lo that has not included outside Guest board members.  Before the ranks are awarded, the full board must, in writing, endorse the rank.  GM Pat Burleson, GM Butch Alish, and GM Passmore, are just a few examples of the esteemed people who have sat on dan tests for Tong Il Lo.  Grand Master McDonald intentionally adopted this policy from the beginning, so that outside Grand Masters could help to set the standards by which Tong Il Lo Black Belts are judged.  And let me tell you that at all levels, including dan levels, that people have failed tests, including failing on the recommendation of outside guests!  I personally had my 2nd dan probated initially, not because I failed any portion of my test (in fact all test board members said it was one of the better 2nd dan tests they'd ever seen), but because, 3 hrs into my 4.5 hour test (and yes I was testing alone), when I was put on the mat for nearly 30 minutes of various random full speed attacks, which I successfully defended against, I did not use a high enough percentage of specific Tong Il Lo techniques in that part of the test.  Being exhausted, and having spent time throwing up everything but my toes, and battling my asthma,  I reverted to techniques that I had used for years and successfully defended.  But the point was made and I agreed 100% that I was testing in Tong Il Lo, and therefore even when exhausted, Tong Il Lo needed to be reflected more during random attacks.  This is an example of the kind of standards that Tong Il Lo keeps!  Incidentally, my 4 on 1 was intense enough that I sustained a back injury, and at the end, I was so on instinct, that one of my partners had to drive me onto the mat yelling we're done, and then I sat up and passed out!  Oh and after that I had to still perform board and concrete breaks and then stand motionless and endure a 2 minute beating with a shinai, to demonstrate body conditioning.  This is Tong Il Lo my friend!  On my 1st dan test, I chipped a bone in my hand and in sparring I had my cup broken.  This is Tong Il Lo!

You ask about the breaks- I beleive foxmc has elaborated on this, but understand that in Tong Il Lo that the breaks go far beyond what many people have ever seen.  As stated in foxmc's post, no, of course you don't fight boards or bricks, but they make a reasonably consistent measuring stick for improvement in power, speed, technique, and explosive energy.  I have seen the video of GM McDonald on his 3rd dan ITF test, and back then at 6'0" he only weighed about 160, and broke 12 boards with a jump spinning back kick.  That should say something about what, nearly 20 years later, he could do to someone's ribcage or knee with that kick.

I would suggest that my ability to break 3 concrete slabs with my head would probably indicate that the average nose would break if I smash it with my head.  (Incidentally, when I met GM McDonald, though I had 12 years under my belt, he took me from a lead leg side kick of 3 boards, to one of 5 in 6 months.)  See my point?  That showed a marked improvement in my technique, which is now at 8 going on 9.  And guess what?  When the stops are down and its time to tangle, I am by nature a grappler, more than a kicker or even a puncher.  But, if I do incorporate a strike, I do so with a strike that has repeatedly been used to penetrate solid material.  That is what breaking has to do with self-defense!

As far as flying techniques, they improve explosiveness, timing, and balance, and force a person to isolate the technique quickly at the end of the arial portion.  What do flying kicks have to do in self defense?  Simple, 1 they develop those things I mentioned, and 2 they can be utilized as finish off or in certain situations as surprise techniques if timed properly.

Now, I don't know all of the ins and outs of Tin Jin Do, but as for your questioning one rank defeating another.  Chuck Norris pointed out in his mid-eighties book "The Secret of My Inner Strength", he entered a judo competition as a brown belt and was defeated in the grand championship by a white belt.  You really need to open your mind if you think that rank is the total determiner of who can beat who sparring.  There are many people who are not good sparring competitors, but who when you go no holds barred could wax the floor with some great sparring people.  Also how do you explain the likes of Tank Abbott of UFC fame.  He swept through a number of highly skilled martial artists, and he was just a plain ol' tough SOB in the early couple of competitions, though to his credit, he got even tougher by developing more formal skills.  I guarantee you that some of the guys that come out of prison gangs could eat the luch of some very high ranking black belts.  To quote Nearly verbatim, my good friend, and mentor, Master Chris Martin, "Most martial arts instructors are teaching average people to have a combative edge against average attackers.  Most of those intstructors wouldn't stand a chance against a K-1 fighter, or other professional hard core fighter.  In reality, this is because most instructors are not able to devote 6-8 hours every day for years in gruelling training.  No, most of them have to work jobs other than just teaching.

Next Point.  Your comment about "mini classes.  Many old school, well established instructors are either teaching exclusively in rec centers (the overhead is much lower) or supplement a studio with them.  Tong Il Lo students are not limited to 1-2 days per week.  Some beginners may choose such, but as they progress most of our students choose to attend more than one location so that they can train 3-6 days per week, and if they wish have exposure to more than one instructor, maximizing the chance that they will master each concept, by having it presented from slightly different perspectives.

Now, this ties into the beauty, and the real spirit of Tong Il Lo.  All students go through the same training for 1st dan, and in the process are able to discover what best fits their bodies.  This allows them to specialize more as they go through dan ranks.  This unity approach allows it to be more effective to a larger percentage of people by catering to a variety of physical make-ups.

Again I apologize for the tone of this.  I mean no offense, but I do mean to steadfastly defend those whom I have defended, and I felt that if I didn't shoot from the heart that my response would be less than steadfast.
My hope is simply that it will get the original poster to think about what they have done and to perhaps take the time to find out things before they attack people with far less than full information.  I could construe that as slander, since you publicly named someone!

One last thing.  Someone questioned on this or the other relevant post, GM Passmore's requirements, as possibly being discriminatory against non-Christians.  First of all he is not teaching for the government, and therefore has no legal obligation to seperate religion from his program.  Secondly, he named examples of why, and in that sense yes he is discriminating.  He is discriminating against those who would seek to use deadly skills to improve the efficiency of their violent and abusive ways.  I hope GM Passmore will always discriminate against people such as these, and will show full bias for those women and children who need an extra edge against those who would harm them.  

On a more personal note, I am a Christian, and I admire the fact that GM Passmore has incorporated his faith into his teachings.  If you read up on him you will discover that his personal walk with Jesus Christ is one of inspiration.  I have certainly been inspired by what this true man of God hs accomplished through his relationship with Christ.  

Peace to all, and may we work toward undertanding and acceptance, rather than pointless bickering.


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 17, 2004)

First off no one had any intention on slandering anyone and is thought to believe that it was in noway a total disregard for the truth. It was a post originally designed to spark a question about politics and truth in martial arts. Because IMHO as FTD's alot of the politics in MA surronds us. I was taught from a private teacher and have been in MA for as long as I can remember.  I know of all the GM you speak of and have met them and spoken to a few. But it doesnt mean I like what they teach and how they do it. Here in the Dfw metroplex we are surrounded by a multiverse of Taekwondo schools and tourneys. All focused on that type of fighting, sparring, competition, and self-defense. As you said, when a person attends a school usually they only know those groups or schools associated with them. Do you know me? I have been to many of the schools here in the DFW metroplex and I have seen them compete and talk to their instructors. I have even talked to Mr. Mcdonald. But instead of talking to me as an associate of marital arts and self-defense he gave me a sales pitch. About how I should come to one of his schools and train. I have students who have taken lessons in Tong il lo and have found it to be not even close to what they wanted or thought self defense was. They found it to be "point oriented" as in taekwondo systems and schools in the area. As far as me not being in a place to insult Mr. Mcdonald,  I simply asked a question. As far as my seeing the 12 yr old who I thought looked 7, I wasnt going to interupt the belt test to confirm a question which I thought was just ludacris anyway. Thats what I thought of it.  I am not going to stop the whole thing because I feel that I need to know this young mans whole history. I really didnt give it two thoughts. It was just an observation. Noone publicly attack him either. He looked younger than what he really is. Simple. And even if he was 12, he was wearing a black belt, and I feel that no one under the age of 13 should even have a black belt even if we feel that they are able to complete the test and or perform adequate self-defense. I was he age when I achieved my first black belt and I will tell you that I was too young! A child doesnt understand the complications and problems with defending yourself especially under Texas law. Thats how I FEEL!  I dont know how many times I have to say that! Its my opinion. Its how I feel. What have I done in comparison to what Mr. Mcdonald has done? Saved peoples lives. Defended their homes, and made sure they felt safe. My intention in MA was never to obtain Fortune and Glory. I dont beleive in competitions and belts. How can one judge on who may of won a fight? How can one rank knowledge that is unrankable? I too have asthma. I know exactly how it felt fighting and not being able to breath, testing and that feeling that you are failing yourself and others. Right infront of everyone. But that was me as a child. Now its all about not fighting and living for truth. Christians huh? Let me say the first Christian thing in this forum and about this topic. Jesus is Lord. And when it comes down to it, I answer to him and only him. He is my first line of defense. Not my own. Not anyone elses. He gives me the strength, the knowledge, and the power to defeat my enemies. No weapon formed against me shall prosper. Now you said maybe we should stop all of this pointless bickering? Yeah we should. And you should stop and boast about God and his son. Not another man and what he has done. OF COURSE THIS IS MY OPINION!!! (all of it except the Jesus is Lord part!) But you can also say that it is my opinion as well, Dont want to offend anyone elses religous beliefs. Once again. Thank you.


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## Humble Instructor (Aug 17, 2004)

DTS, A couple of points.  Note that I have not stated any intention of limiting your right to express yourself.  Further, if you have served our country, then I salute you.  If you carefully consider what I wrote, you will note that my primary purpose was to give you more information from which to base your opinion, and to defend some people whom I respect.  

That does not mean that I intend in any way to sway or alter your opinion, nor your feelings.  The bottom line is this- by less bickering, what I mean is that we should have good healthy dialogue and each fully express ourselves, and we do not have to agree, but that we should word things in a way that fully expresses our opinions while avoiding what seems to be an attack.  Actually, this can be quite challenging.  After all, the right of expression is one of the basic rights that you were defending when you served our country, and again I salute you.

As far as the religion thing- As stated, I am a Christian, and I do have my beliefs, and therefore I stated them.  If you knew me though, you would be aware of the fact that I'm highly opposed to anyone of any faith shoving anything down people's throats.  I have many friends who are not Christian, and though we have different beliefs, I respect theirs and they respect mine.  Yes, I admire GM Passmore's personal faith walk, but I recommend that anyone, irregardless of religious convictions, read what he has to say about it.  Irregardless of whether someone agrees with his faith, the leaps and bounds he has made in his life, the things he has overcome, are highly admirable.  For him, his faith was the catalyst for his delivery.  That's my real point-more than whether I agree with his beliefs or not- the fact that he grabbed onto something, and used it to pull himself up by the bootstrings.

And above all I guess that's what I mean by stop bickering.  We as martial artists should all respect each other as kinsmen.  Various paths to acheive a similar end.  There are of course all "shapes and sizes", but the point is that as a general rule, whether they be sportsmen, self-defense gurus, or philophers, we all share at least some common bond.  Perhaps we should spend more time looking for ways to enhance each other, rather than pick apart each others negatives.  My feeling is that there is no one best system.  They all have ups, and downs, but I feel that each one has something, however big or small, that can be taken from it.  After all, like peoples faith or philisophical walks, our martial arts walks are in reality quite personal experiences.

I full respect your views.  Again, I simply wanted to state more facts for you to base your opinion from.  With these facts, in place, if you feel the same way, then, while I don't agree with all of your opinions, I do respect them.

Something to realize would be that many people would have been able to take a more debative approach rather than a defensive approach, if no one's name had been mentioned.  I still would have defended my system, but I would not have been offended had their been no mention of a name.  That made it more personal, and I am from the old school of thought on that, which is that I feel bound to defend the honor of my GM, and should do so strongly.  We are past the need for "challenges" and therefore debate forums are a good place for this type of discourse.


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 17, 2004)

I understand you completely on this, if someone was to in some way that I felt tried to dishonor my teacher I would probably respond in the same way. But it was just questions. I wish I could tell all the facts to explain how I feel and how FTD feels about this. But like you said this is a public forum, and names and events cannot be posted without some type of legal flashback. Even if the information is true. I have seen the 12 yr old black belt in action and the young man is very good. And Mr. WG who orginally started this thread to defend your GM is also a very good MA. It wasnt a crack at them or at Mr. Mcdonald. It was a question I asked the general public to see if they had the same type of situation. If I could tell you the whole story, you would understand my concern. I do understand yours, but the problem with this is I cannot tell you everything! MA should come together and respect each others different styles and teachings, that would be nice but some people shouldnt be teaching at all. I am not speaking of your GM. But, if I could tell you everything you would know who, what,where, when, and why I dont believe they should!! Not everyone likes each other. And not everyone likes the different systems around here in the DFW metroplex. Mr. Passmore is one person who just from what he has said on the forums is one that I do not want to meet. I believe he mistook me and or FTD for someone else. But with his type of religous conviction, maybe if he knew the whole story than he would feel differently too. But the posts he made when corrected about who we are were not apologetic but just condescending. As if he knew who we are and what we have done. Once again, I have never met him, ever. So how can he say that I have only been training for 6 months? Same with FTD? With him and others who shall remain nameless with this type of attitude for dealing with things, you can see why I would just question your GM. But thats is just my opinion. I do respect yours, but only if you knew the whole story. Its a story I cant tell. But I do honor your intentions and respect your opinions as well.


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## foxmc (Aug 17, 2004)

All this stuff aside, DTS, what did you find useful and/or resourceful in the self-defense area that was involved on the test? Any suggestions for future tests? Perhaps its time to exchange some ideas and concerns now, rather than reflect on more negative aspects of the evaluations. I would greatly appreciate perhaps some thoughts and suggestions from what you observed. Perhaps you have endured tests with different requirements that could be useful to add realism and effective adaptation to an evaluation. I am always open to new ideas, and anything that will help my students become more street-savvy would be appreciated.

 Thanks,
 WG


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## Deflecting_the_Storm (Aug 17, 2004)

Nothing really different in testing. Minus the board breaking in which I feel that is just a difference of opinion. The discipline would be pushed to the limit. I feel that when a person reaches the advanced stages of an art that it should be harder and harder for them to achieve that rank. Also at that rank a person should be put on the spot. Have the director of the test call out an attack and have the testee defend it. Put the testee in many different situations. Make them give everything they have. Push them to the limit. And when they think they have nothing left, make them dig deeper. It is an honor to be bestowed a certain rank. You must earn it and respectfully have all requirements mastered before you can move on. One of the problems a friend of mine is having right now is reviewing past belts. He feels that if this type of discipline was installed earlier when he was learning the past belts, that reviewing would not be neccessary. Which I believe totally. At the higher belts sparring and techniques should come almost as easily as breathing. Muscle memory should be in full gear and reactionary time should almost be nil. That type of discipline seperates those who are serious in the art and those who want to add a few tricks up their sleeves.


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## foxmc (Aug 18, 2004)

Amen, Brother Milo! lol

 I truly wish that some of these "Lee's TKD" or "Smith's Karate" (No offense to anyone named Lee or Smith!) as I like to call the run-of-the-mill belt factories around, would take some of what you just said and apply it, I think the world could actually become a better place for all mankind. Okay, beyond the Ms. America tone, I completely agree. When I came up through the ranks in my art (TIL), there wasn't any room for "going through the motions" or even "flashy demonstration". It was balls-to-the-wall or nothing-at-all. I used to co-train under the instruction of the late Gilbert Narváez, a man who to this day I would be training with, if not for his early death. He taught me much of what I possess in knowledge now of things such as discipline, intensity, seriousness for the situation, as well as humility. He always taught that when you want to test to your next rank, you had better go beyond your physical limitations, or you're not passing. Period. Master McDonald was the same way. I believe that these teachings were the reason I know what I do today. Were I to be attacked, I don't even have to think before my body's already doing the work for me. It was all of this hardcore beating-into-the-head training over and over that made me as capable as I am today, and I don't have a problem whatsoever with previous rank techniques. In fact, all the time I am rather seeking to throw out bad ones, or improve upon the good foundations of others. I agree that it is IMPERATIVE that you not simply learn your strikes, punches, and fancy SD techniques, and then test, say hooray, and start on the next one. That's like the slacker in school. He can do just enough to get by as long as he wants, but were he ever to have to take the test to get into college, he fails because he never _acquired_ the knowledge, he merely saw what was done and imitated it as was necessary to move on to the next lesson. I myself hindered a lot of my learning skills in school because of similar study habits.

 As far as sparring goes, yes, it should come easier at the more advanced ranks. Given, some are not going to be natural fighters, but still they should be able to hold there own enough to demonstrate something that proves they can defend themselves. We have something called "integrated sparring" which is like a regular sparring match, same rules and all, however, the testee is required to execute a certain minimum amount of actual SD techniques, while the attackers not only strike and block, but grab and attempt to detain as well.

 I think all in all, what you've said about muscle memory is the real kicker with a self-defense based class or art. That's how you separate the "quick cash" schools from the true arts of survival training. In your typical belt factory, you have students that go through the motions on the test, know a few classroom rules, show that they can throw a few kicks and punches at someone who is really just out there for them to hit, not really fighting yet, and then they get their belt, mom and dad are happy, and the world is a happy place. Well, this type of training is simply not survival training. I am not saying these places do not have a good student retention. They better! They are giving the students what they want, are they not? Woohoo! A new belt! Pay your dues, get what you paid for, no? That's the capitalist way. On the flipside, you have the real dojos. The ones who make students do the same techniques over and over and over and over and over until the students want to quit because of it. Why is this? Why would you want to bore your students? They'll leave! Well, this is sometimes true, but there is a reason for this. Just as you said, statistically they say that in order for the human body to effectively establish a technique firmly into the body's muscles, so that it is a natural, instantly accessible movement (muscle memory), that movement must be repeated a minimum of 300,000 times. I don't know about most people, but that's A LOT of the same darn thing! Well, if those students are serious about wanting to learn to survive in the streets, that's what its going to take. I teach many young students, and every time a new student will ask me "Why are we doing these same techniques over and over? We know this one already!"
 Funny story (I know this is long, sorry, lol): This happened with one of my students one time, and I approached him and said "You know it, right?" To which of course, he replied "I've known it for 4 weeks now." I then commenced to strike him just as the technique required, no tricky deceptions, feints or distraction first. Can you guess what happened? Yup, he stood there and got hit in the chest. He started to react just as he got hit, but as any true SD instructor can tell you, that's simply not enough. In the street, he would've been dead.
 So in response to what you said, heck yeah and amen! I wouldn't want any of my students NOT going through the same thing repeatedly. If they can't execute the technique in class, lord help them in the street, and that only comes back to reflect the instructor. Even after we practice this way at each belt, my students are required to go back and review still. Practice never hurt anybody more than being unpracticed in an actual situation. I can testify to that!

  - WG -


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## foxmc (Aug 18, 2004)

I know i just posted, but I wanted to address one more thing, plus it makes the prevoius post not seem so long if I split it up, lol.

 Regarding the whole issue of the real dojos and how they have a hard time retaining students because of the repetition, that's just a fact of life. A true-to-the-art instructor knows that it isn't about the money, its about the quality of the student. This ultimately translates to the effectiveness of the civilian. A student in class is the same civilian in the street, just without a belt. However, a student that is after a belt, and not the actual training, the instructor can afford to lose. But when you think about the percentage of the possibility of an actual confrontation in the street is with any given person, maybe the question is "Can the student afford to lose the training?" Maybe if school systems (educational, not martial) required everyone going to graduate to achieve a black belt in a legitimate art of ANY kind, we'd have less problems in the street that require the training to begin with. Let me know your thoughts.

  - WG -


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## Humble Instructor (Aug 18, 2004)

Regarding WG last statement about Martial Arts in public schools:  I agree!!! In fact, I so agree that that statement is in my profile on the Tong Il Lo website!!!

A few years ago, I had the honor and privledge to be selected as one of 10 speakers (out of over 1700 applicants), to speak at the Annual National Prevention Through Recreation Conference.  My presentation was entitled, "Kicking the Issues, Youth Development Through Martial Arts Programs."
Basically the presentation was aimed at getting rec centers in the US and Canada, who did not already have martial arts programs at their facilities, to consider the benefits of obtaining such.  I really hit hard on the points of character development.  I also stated the need for them to carefully screen their applicants, as getting a lousy instructor could be worse than having no program at all.  One of my quotes was this: "I challenge you to find me a legitimate black belt who feels the need to join a gang to belong, or who would introduce harmful substances into his body that he had spent so many grueling years honing into an instrument of balance and good health.

I also will for legal purposes state that I do have a "poor man's copyright" on this title and the lecture notes, as I intend to use these as the framework for an eventual book, so for those visiting this post, please respect my intellectual property rights on this matter. 

Thanks, and hats off to WG for shifting what began as somewhat of a confrontation, and developed into a healthy debate, to an exchange of ideas and philosophies that can benefit all who choose to participate in this thread!
AT


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