# Path vs. Line



## Kenpo Yahoo (Sep 30, 2003)

Anyone who has been in kenpo for any amount of time has been told that they should use a *Path of Action* when doing certain techniques.  I thought it might be of some value to explore the differences between a Path of Action and a Line of Action and perhaps benefits of using one over the other.  Is there ever a time when a line of action is more advantageous than a path? When?


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 30, 2003)

Other than threading, what do you mean by line of action?


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## ArnoldLee (Sep 30, 2003)

Okey, I'll give this a shot.  

A path of action falls under the self defense principle of Margin for Error.  I'd assume that a line of action is utilized where the need for Margin for Error is lessened.

Before I go any further I'll use the example of thrusting with the front portion of the fist (a "punch") where you go straight from point A to B (line of action) instead of "wiping" using the forearm in a hammering method of execution (path of action).

This instance not requiring Margin for Error might be when you limit an opponent's amount of freedom so much that you can choose to strike him at leisure (you have both ends of a limb pinned down and then break his elbow for example) or when using a path of action would mean overextending or compromising proper body structure.

I dunno, I'm kinda fumbling in the dark and extrapolating here.  Does my definition fit what you had in mind?


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## rmcrobertson (Sep 30, 2003)

Needle vs. squeegee; man-to-man vs. zone defense; immaculate perfection vs. good enough to work well.


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## kenpo2dabone (Sep 30, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Touch'O'Death _
> *Other than threading, what do you mean by line of action? *



A line of action strike would be, for example, a straight punch to the face. A path of action strike would be a back-knuckle to the face. Line of action strikes, in my opinion, are more devastating than path of action strikes due to the fact that you can hit with all your mass behind it. Path of action strikes tend to be limited in back up mass to only the backup mass of the weapon itself, such as your fist. Another analogy would be stabbing a person with a knife, which is line of action, and slicing somebody, which is path of action. 

Line of action advantages:

you can hit with all your mass. 
straight line strikes get from point A to point B quicker than strikes that travel on an arch.

Disadvanteges:

smaller margin for error. 
you have to be more accurate. 

Path of action advantages:

Greater margin for error.
less accuracy is needed.
Tend to be easier for beginner students due to gross motor skills

Disadvanteages:

Do not have as much power.
Take longer to get to target.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 1, 2003)

Not to start a fight here but we teach that by anchoring our elbow, our strait punches follow a path of action in that the first half of that strike is always a block. My point being that the weopon may follow a line but the vehicle(your arm or leg) would always end up on a path.:asian:


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## ArnoldLee (Oct 1, 2003)

I don't think that this would start a fight.  I believe Mr. Parker and many of the seniors I questioned demonstrated their punches this way... anchoring their elbows and thus delivering the punch via a path.  If anything there is very rarely a straight line from A to B, it's usually a very flat arc (mayhap something to do with elongating circles?).  This would apply not only to punches but even something like a whipping backfist the elbow would anchor and thus move through a slight path even if the fist looked like it was going straight.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 1, 2003)

Obviously verticle paths are easier to evade as a potential target; however, the master key method of execution for empty handed fighting is thrust. Five Swords works great against a straight punch but you need to tag the throat as part of the first move. You are more likely to be the recipiant of a thrust. Yes, it is easier to evade but if you are unsucsessfull you are going down.


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## WhiteTiger (Oct 1, 2003)

This sounds like circular motion vs. linear motion.  You AK guys seem to have not end of complex and flowery definitions for otherwise simple concepts.

Respectully


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## kenposikh (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *This sounds like circular motion vs. linear motion.  You AK guys seem to have not end of complex and flowery definitions for otherwise simple concepts.
> 
> Respectully *



The problem here is that people try to blind us with science here. A strike going from A to B must follow a path to the end, whether this be a straight line or circular either way it is a path.

Your instructors are trying to blind you here.

I would have to say that the all encompassing phrase is to take a course of action


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## MisterMike (Oct 1, 2003)

A path is curved, but not necessarily circular. Look at the ovals in the universal pattern.

A line, well, is a line.

As your motion advances, paths transition to lines, and vice-versa.

You can see linear techniques, such as Parting Wings (although there are some corners rounded), but the three strikes are linear.

As for paths, look at Circles of Protection for instance.

I think there is more fluidness in "circular" motion. USing the figure-8 pattern you can pick up attcaks and easily insert defenses.


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## kenposikh (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by MisterMike _
> *A path is curved, but not necessarily circular. Look at the ovals in the universal pattern.
> 
> A line, well, is a line.
> ...



Agreed a line is a line but surely a path is the vector along which the weapon travels and therefore can be linear or circular.

I'm sorry I just don't understand.


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## Kenpomachine (Oct 1, 2003)

You mean straight and arched?
Because a line doesn't need to be straight, just see the *S*


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## kenposikh (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kenpomachine _
> *You mean straight and arched?
> Because a line doesn't need to be straight, just see the *S*  *



 I meant line to mean linear, but well done for that


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## MisterMike (Oct 1, 2003)

> Agreed a line is a line but surely a path is the vector along which the weapon travels and therefore can be linear or circular.



I did not learn in Kenpo that a Path was anything but non-linear.

As far as mathematics, there are path solutions which are linear, but a vector is always linear.

I'm trying to answer within the definitions of Kenpo, as I was taught. The travel of weapons is either straight or curved, or linear or along a path.


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## Touch Of Death (Oct 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _
> *This sounds like circular motion vs. linear motion.  You AK guys seem to have not end of complex and flowery definitions for otherwise simple concepts.
> 
> Respectully *


Actualy I'm talking about vertical vs horizontal. In my particular version of kenpo we work only in paths while understanding that your weopon itself is of course traveling on a line.


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 1, 2003)

Obviously a path of action, referred to earlier as the squeegee principle, lends itself well to blocking incoming attacks (this is taught in starblock), but let's look at striking.  Is there ever an appropriate time to strike using a line of action over a path of action?  What benefits are there to using a path of action in striking?


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## kenpo2dabone (Oct 1, 2003)

Well, I think I pointed out pretty clearly what I felt the differences, advantages and disadvantages of each type of strike in my original post. I would like to add however, that there are times that I prefer one over the other. Like everything else in Kenpo, it is situational. For instance, I prefer a path of action forarm under the chin after a hammer fist to the groin. The reason for this is do to the fact that I am closer to my attacker. A line of action strike would require me to aim my weapon, my fist, first and then strike taking up half a beat in the technique. A rising forarm is now quicker because no adjustment or "aiming" is required. It goes straight to the target with no articulation of the elbow needed before the strike can make contact. It does not matter if I strike him with my forarm closer to my fist or closer to my elbow. Therefore, I do not need to make as much adjustment for range. In my previest post I made it sound like "line of action" is better or more advanced. I just wanted to point out that there are times when I prefer a "path of action" much more. After thinking about some more I would have to say that more often than not I prefer to use path of action strikes when I am doing consecutive strikes with the same hand. I prefer to use line of action strikes when alternating hands because while one hand or foot is striking the other has time to set up for the next strike.    

Salute,
Mike Miller UKF


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## Kenpo Yahoo (Oct 3, 2003)

Kenpo2dabone:

I totally agree.  Good points all around.


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## ProfessorKenpo (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by kenposikh _
> *The problem here is that people try to blind us with science here. A strike going from A to B must follow a path to the end, whether this be a straight line or circular either way it is a path.
> 
> Your instructors are trying to blind you here.
> ...



Thank you Amrik, for having the good sense to see this.


Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## kenposikh (Oct 3, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *Thank you Amrik, for having the good sense to see this.
> 
> 
> ...



I just say it as I see it Clyde.


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## Goldendragon7 (Oct 13, 2003)

> _Originally posted by WhiteTiger _*
> This sounds like circular motion vs. linear motion.  You AK guys seem to have no end of complex and flowery definitions for otherwise simple concepts.  Respectully
> *



Yes, and no.  Mr. Parker was a scientific "splitter", meaning when he needed another term to pin point exactly what he was referring to...he would develop another term thus the large vocabulary of terms (understanding them is another problem).

What is unique here is that both line and path need not be "ONLY" linear or circular but could be either by description depending upon the particular circumstances.  A "line", usually is a course that is much smaller than a "path".  Each has usefulness.  

One can not "understand" all of the American Kenpo Terminology just from the literal sound of the words... they often times have multi dimensional meanings and can easily be confused if taken literally without back up data.

:asian:


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## Michael Billings (Oct 13, 2003)

I have been doing EPAK now for about 17 years, with 7 of Chinese Kenpo before that.  I STILL don't know all the terms.  Heard a great Concept the other day - "Stablized Assistance", coined by Howard Silva.  The monentary assistance in balance as you transfer weight into an opponent, with or following a strike, e.g. Hooking Wings, you are MOMENTARILY assisted by the arms hooking or striking as you balance for the kick.  Just another Kenpoese term I liked.

It is always evolving and I am sure GD7 has coined a term or two.  Like maybe "Kenpo Tools?"  They have been there for us to use, but never articulated as a SET OF TOOLS to assist us in the analyzation of Motion.  

Shoot, it ain't complicated, it is sophisticated.  Sophistication is just basics compounded.  Clear as mud to a non-kenpoist, but it makes sense the higher you get.

-Michael


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## MJS (Nov 2, 2005)

Reviving this thread.

Mike


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## Doc (Nov 2, 2005)

Has anyone considered that a "Path" is simply a wide "line?" They are both geometrical ideas that simply define the value of essentially the same thing. Just a thought.


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## mj-hi-yah (Nov 2, 2005)

Doc said:
			
		

> Has anyone considered that a "Path" is simply a wide "line?" They are both geometrical ideas that simply define the value of essentially the same thing. Just a thought.


Yes I think of it that way, but I like the delineation as it gives students more precise vocabulary to deepen their understanding.  I think it is easy for most new students to understand how to, for example, throw a punch following a narrow line, but by teaching them to, when appropriate, follow the widened path by changing weapons to a forearm for example, when appropriate, increases the likelihood of a successful strike, as since mentioned earlier in this thread the margin of error is greater when following a narrow line.  :asian:


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## Doc (Nov 2, 2005)

Goldendragon7 said:
			
		

> Yes, and no.  Mr. Parker was a scientific "splitter", meaning when he needed another term to pin point exactly what he was referring to...he would develop another term thus the large vocabulary of terms (understanding them is another problem).
> 
> What is unique here is that both line and path need not be "ONLY" linear or circular but could be either by description depending upon the particular circumstances.  A "line", usually is a course that is much smaller than a "path".  Each has usefulness.
> 
> ...


Yeah, yeah, yeah, whatever!


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## kenpoworks (Nov 2, 2005)

Paths and lines...Paths generally more protection....Lines generally more penatration......Paths more "margin for error"...Lines more accuracy.
I have found from personal experience that Paths work for protection and Lines for attacking... I have tried to embrace the "Path of action Theory" is better than the Line of action..but in actual situations I have felt a greater degree of control (both physiologicaly as well as physcologically) when using accurate, fast hard Lines of attack eg knuckles and point of elbow as opposed to the length of the forearm.
Rich


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## Doc (Nov 2, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Paths and lines...Paths generally more protection....Lines generally more penatration......Paths more "margin for error"...Lines more accuracy.
> I have found from personal experience that Paths work for protection and Lines for attacking... I have tried to embrace the "Path of action Theory" is better than the Line of action..but in actual situations I have felt a greater degree of control (both physiologicaly as well as physcologically) when using accurate, fast hard Lines of attack eg knuckles and point of elbow as opposed to the length of the forearm.
> Rich


Makes sense to me China. The rest is a nice intellectual exercise that has nothing to do with actually learning how to make them function in the real world. Much better for a couple of old fat guys sitting around , than those learning how to actually do something at the moment.


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## kenpoworks (Nov 3, 2005)

Hey Doc,
I have always rambled on (as my students will testify), but the disturbing thing is I am starting to do it online....there's no hope is there...it's all down hill from here.
...<<The rest is a nice intellectual exercise that has nothing to do with actually learning how to make them function in the real world>>..You can read minds can't you?
Old Fat guys......I know thats not a reference to us!
Your "old china"


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## Doc (Nov 3, 2005)

kenpoworks said:
			
		

> Hey Doc,
> I have always rambled on (as my students will testify), but the disturbing thing is I am starting to do it online....there's no hope is there...it's all down hill from here.
> ...<<The rest is a nice intellectual exercise that has nothing to do with actually learning how to make them function in the real world>>..You can read minds can't you?
> Old Fat guys......I know thats not a reference to us!
> Your "old china"


I sincerely apologize for using the words "old," and "fat" in the same sentence. I should know better, and no you don't qualify. Myself however, is another story China.


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## Making the Journey (Jan 29, 2006)

WhiteTiger said:
			
		

> This sounds like circular motion vs. linear motion. You AK guys seem to have not end of complex and flowery definitions for otherwise simple concepts.
> 
> Respectully


 
A Linear move is only a move made up of very minute circles... Just like we think of the ground to be linear sometimes, it's really on big circle... everything moves in a cirle<< think about that.. it'll change the perspective on alot


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## Doc (Jan 30, 2006)

Making the Journey said:
			
		

> A Linear move is only a move made up of very minute circles... Just like we think of the ground to be linear sometimes, it's really on big circle... everything moves in a cirle<< think about that.. it'll change the perspective on alot


I think you have it backwards sir. Linear movements are actually made up of very small segments of very large circles.


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## Kenpodoc (Jan 30, 2006)

Making the Journey said:
			
		

> A Linear move is only a move made up of very minute circles... Just like we think of the ground to be linear sometimes, it's really on big circle... everything moves in a cirle<< think about that.. it'll change the perspective on alot


All of our joints move in a circular fashion, but depending upon the scale one evaluates movement the weapon can move in essentially a linear manner. Unfortunately this is just the overintellecualism that Kenpo is fond of.  Line and Path just refer to the relative width of the striking portion of the body. Circular and linear motion refer to the relative geometrical path of the motion with reference to the weapon.  Some movements are more effective than others in certain situations.  Depending on the situation, even less effective movements may be effective enough to allow us to squabble over what is best.  In my opinion good Kenpo is a mixture of linear and circular, line of action and path of action.  The devil is in the details and learning and performing the action that most likely will fullfill your needs.  

Currently I'm just trying to learn to make the techniques work as I've been taught them without having to change much regardless of the size of the attacker and the intensity of the attack.  The system presents a large variety of linear, circular, path of action and line of action examples to teach me the basics.  When something goes wrong I've learned to adjust, regulate, graft, etc but now I want to learn to make the techniques work for me rather than my having to change due to the little failures that crop up in my technical ability.  

Respectfully,

Jeff


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## Michael Billings (Jan 30, 2006)

Kenpodoc said:
			
		

> All of our joints move in a circular fashion, but depending upon the scale one evaluates movement the weapon can move in essentially a linear manner. Unfortunately this is just the overintellecualism that Kenpo is fond of.  Line and Path just refer to the relative width of the striking portion of the body. Circular and linear motion refer to the relative geometrical path of the motion with reference to the weapon.  Some movements are more effective than others in certain situations.  Depending on the situation, even less effective movements may be effective enough to allow us to squabble over what is best.  In my opinion good Kenpo is a mixture of linear and circular, line of action and path of action.  The devil is in the details and learning and performing the action that most likely will fullfill your needs.
> 
> Currently I'm just trying to learn to make the techniques work as I've been taught them without having to change much regardless of the size of the attacker and the intensity of the attack.  The system presents a large variety of linear, circular, path of action and line of action examples to teach me the basics.  When something goes wrong I've learned to adjust, regulate, graft, etc but now I want to learn to make the techniques work for me rather than my having to change due to the little failures that crop up in my technical ability.
> 
> ...


Good luck in your ongoing search for answers ... (it only gets better).  

Segments of Circles=arcs to me and could be a path of motion or line of motion contingent on the natural weapon, method of execution, etc.  Now if you connect the radii or go linearly from one end of the arc to the other end of an arc, it could still be a path or a line contingent on weapon and how executed.  Margin of error and whether you are STRIKING <as all upper belts should be> or whether you are BLOCKING.can be factors in deciding whether you utilized a path or line of motion.

Now what was the question again .....  :idunno:

-Michael


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