# Don't be afraid...



## makoto-dojo (Jan 26, 2007)

To step into the light that is!

Reading through many of these posts, it is so clear that some people are so well intentioned, really doing their best to be good students. Really trying to do the "right thing". But just living in a world of make believe.

And I do not say that with any malice or ill will. I do not mean to be insulting in any way by saying that either. Because I do not believe that people are living in a make believe world on purpose. I think people just trust other people more than trusting themselves!

So much of what I read in these forums are CLEARLY the result of people spending allot of time in their heads and working these "concepts" with rag-doll uke, thus "proving" (in their minds that is) their concepts to work.

I love the moment of self realization, when people for the first time try to do their "dead-patterns" live. When they realize none of it is working like they thought. It is at that moment some very powerful choices are made.

Either they go back and hide in the darkness afraid of what they have seen, or they step into the light, bare once again and ready to face what needs to be faced in order to live a life a truth. The second option, takes immense courage and effort. The first option doesn't which is why so many choose it.

When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, *SOOO* Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc. In a live situation _(i.e. no rag-dolls)_! *SO CLEAR!*

And yet they profess it as if what they are saying is correct and anyone not towing the line just doesn't get it and is wrong. I would hope to God well meaning students are smarter than this!

All you have to do is try it, for real Really go in there with someone who knows their art and go for it, so simple, but so spooky at the same time. people often times identify with their rank, or relative position (in an organization) or what they are "known for" or their perceived abilities so strongly, that they cannot bear the thought of it al breaking down!

What if after so many years training I find that I am really not as good or "far along" as I once thought I was? Can I handle that? A zen master has said, in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the masters mind there are but a few... (or something like that  )Are we ready for the beginners mind? Can we put the white belt back on at least metaphorically, or are we too set in our ways? Too afraid to see what we don't know, in other words, see ourselves as we TRULY are, stripped bare and not the persona we have grown to mistake for ourselves.

I remember having conversations with Mr. David Dow about the need for alive training, groundfighting etc. He wasn't really seeing the light. So I almost begged him to go see a person by the name of Matt Thornton who was coming into his area. Much to his credit (showing the brave sort of person he is) he went! When he came back he was humbled, he said they "played with him" and were not even trying! This was a man who lived in Japan for many years and was Mr. Nagato's top dog (no small feat!)

Look at him now! Why would he adopt the views he has and why does he train as he does? because he stepped into the light (which took guts!) he tried it out and seen for himself. he could have chosen to go back to the shadows, but he didn't and that is why he has become what he has become. Not that it matters, not that he needs it, but I am proud of him FWIW...

There was another incident where I was in conversation with a former student and one of his new mentors. When I found out that his mentor was coming to my neck of the woods, I offered to show up and SHOW them what I was talking about. (no intention to harm anyone mind you, but simply put up or shut up) My request was denied, but I was told that I was free to "jump him" if I wanted and I would end up in the hospital..  Even my ex-student told me that HE would put me in the hospital LOL!

Well, as I seen that they were not open to backing up with actions what they so vehemently pontificated online. I let them go to their own devices. However the story gets interesting when some time later, this (ex-student) contacts me about alive type training and ground work etc. I invite him over and even though I had what turned out to be pneumonia at the time, I proceeded to teach him a nice little lesson. (so much for putting me in the hospital...) He was unable to mount any defense or offense. As he laid there totally spent his "black belt" unceremoniously laying crumpled in a corner of the garage. I asked him, so what is that black belt truly worth? Sheepishly he muttered, "not much"...

When I asked him about his "mentor" and the whole hospital thing, he said "**** has no clue, no idea, you would kill him" And when pressed on the hospital issue, his reply was that he was wrong, stupid and sorry... He for months begged me to teach him (as long as we didn't tell anyone..) I of course declined...

So, what is the point of all of this?

I know that what I wrote will ruffle feathers, make some people mad at me or whatever, and that's okay. Even if you get mad at me, I will not be offended, because I know you are only doing what you believe in. I just hope you understand that I do not disrespect any of you, what I write is from my heart with good intentions. I hope you take it with that intention.

The point is that each of us owe it to OURSELVES to empower ourselves with truth. And we must get that "truth through experience"! (our Motto)
then you will be armed with a magic glass, and looking through this magic glass, you will be able to decipher gold from horse dung and you will be well on your way...

Good luck.
http://www.genbukan-ninpo.com/


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## saru1968 (Jan 26, 2007)

While that is you 'story', your opinion of which you are perfectly entitled.

The underlying 'point' for me is respect for my seniors. Now i'm happy with what i train in and i give respect and listen to those that have earnt it in my eyes....a very small list i might add.

If my Instructor wants me to train in a certain way, I do because i was to be on the same path as him, I'd be happy to be just 10% of his ability.

I listen to other points of view, i don't have a closed mind by any means and i certainly enjoy hard training, prob more than is good for me but just levels of training.

But it just comes down to my relationship with my Instructor, its importnat to me, I trust him, I trust his judgement on my training as my senior.

I personally have never found anything 'wanting' I've never been fobbed off with questions i've asked or 'situations' I've come up with.

But Richard the question i ask of you is that if your Instructor indicated that he did not want you to engage in a certain form of training would you still proceed and indeed how would this reflect on your relationship with him.

Might not mean alot to people these days but my relationship with my Instructor is important.

Gaz.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 26, 2007)

Hi,

thanks for the reply. I respect what you wrote. I really am happy for you and I know you are follwoing your path with a sincere heart.




saru1968 said:


> But Richard the question i ask of you is that if your Instructor indicated that he did not want you to engage in a certai form of training would you still proceed and indeed how would this reflect on your relationship with him.


 
To answer your question.

First and formost, I am me. Myself. Not a style or organization. If I am teaching a class on Genbukan ninpo, I feel that it is my job to teach that class the way my teachers ask me to do it. And, I do!

But on my own time, or in classs other than genbukan I do what I want. if ANYONE tried to force me to do something only their way, I am gone! I do not play that game....

I am not defined by the styles I practice or teach. I am me, a creative, thinking alive human being, responsible for me and my family. That superseeds all 'systems".

Does that answer your question?

Sincerely,


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## saru1968 (Jan 26, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> I am not defined by the styles I practice or teach. I am me, a creative, thinking alive human being, responsible for me and my family. That superseeds all 'systems".
> 
> Does that answer your question?
> 
> Sincerely,


 
Yep, pretty much.

The bottom line for me is that if i was to progress in my chosen art then i follow my Instructors advice.

And yes outside of class anyone is free to do as they wish, i suppose the problem only occurs when you bring this outside influences in class.

But no meaning to be difficult but..lets say you extra trainig outside the class in another art was affecting the dynamics of what you did in class. Lets say the weapons system of another style were impacting on your Ninpo weapon training, or maybe thats a level thing. The further you understand the better you can seperate the two systems.

So maybe the concern is more at a foundation level...

I really hope that makes sense as i've retyped this three times..lol


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## bencole (Jan 26, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> I love the moment of self realization, when people for the first time try to do their "dead-patterns" live. When they realize none of it is working like they thought.


 
Well, that is what you will get if you ignore the Soke's advice and focus your efforts on trying to "get techniques" on people, rather than working to allow the techniques to fall into place naturally.

Your budo should look like Buster Keaton, not Ken Shamrock.

If your opponent is able to resist you, you have not set up the circumstances correctly. This is Taijutsu 101. And you should be training to understand this point, rather than training to learn to put on techniques in a canned world.

If you are doing things correctly, even an opponent who is fully resisting will look compliant to an observer. This is because the opponent is not the one in charge.



			
				Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, *SOOO* Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc.


 
It is SOOOO clear that you have your own experiences that cloud your own judgment about what can work and what cannot work. And it is clear that you have little experience training with the Japanese or understanding *WHY* things are the way that they are....



			
				Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> In a live situation _(i.e. no rag-dolls)_!


 
Sports arts are *NOT* live situations, by any means.



			
				Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> I remember having conversations with Mr. David Dow about the need for alive training, groundfighting etc. He wasn't really seeing the light. So I almost begged him to go see a person by the name of Matt Thornton who was coming into his area. Much to his credit (showing the brave sort of person he is) he went! When he came back he was humbled, he said they "played with him" and were not even trying! This was a man who lived in Japan for many years and was Mr. Nagato's top dog (no small feat!)


 
Um... I think even David would be hard pressed to make the case that he was Nagato's "top dog."  David also knows that despite his desire to add things from Thornton into his training, Nagato (at twenty years his senior) would throw him through a wall! LOL!

And if David actually thinks that he could take Nagato in a real fight as a result of his "becoming bare" and "stepping into the light" as you put it, he should tell us here and let me know when he is going to Japan next. I'll book my flight and take the camcorder for posterity!



			
				Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> I know that what I wrote will ruffle feathers, make some people mad at me or whatever, and that's okay.


 
So, Rick. Have you rolled with Mr. Tanemura? Choked him out? Ya, know, "stepped into the light" and all that.... 

And do not tell me that Tanemura "spars" with kendo swords with certain students. 

Have *YOU* gone all out with him like you are admonishing everyone else to do?

I'd like to hear you describe what unfolded that allowed you to choke him out, or him you.

All the best,

-ben


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## Rook (Jan 26, 2007)

bencole said:


> And if David actually thinks that he could take Nagato in a real fight as a result of his "becoming bare" and "stepping into the light" as you put it, he should tell us here and let me know when he is going to Japan next. I'll book my flight and take the camcorder for posterity!
> 
> .......
> 
> ...


 
Should I take this to mean that Nagato of BBT and Tanemura of Genbukan are available to such matches?  If that is the case, it should not be too difficult to find them appropriately matched opponents who would be more then willing to try them out.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 26, 2007)

Ben I really do not think that there is massive sparring of any sort within Genbukan.  All I have seen is a little bit of work with a Shinai and only targeting the wrists. (which had gloves on it)  *No* I am not disparaging the Genbukan or Soke Tanemura (He is great at what he does) in any way just based on what I have seen and heard from several Genbukan practitioners.  The Genbukan, Jinekan and Bujinkan are very close in their training methodologies with slight but subtle nuances to each.  Soke Hatsumi who taught Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei is definately more focused on flow and letting go and being able to move in the moment.  Tanemura Sensei is more thorough and wants his students to be precise. (nothing wrong with that)  Manaka Sensei is moving in his own direction as well.  However all three bear striking similarities to the other. (how could they not)

Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit.  However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.
Just enough but not too much. (if you catch my drift)  MartialTalk is a forum geared towards friendly martial discussion.  I would like to see you make some posts regarding positive training that you have had in the 
Genbukan and also why you like this or that type of training within the
Genbukan.


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## Don Roley (Jan 26, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit.  However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.



I think that the title of this thread is a pretty clear hint that anyone that does not train the way he wants us to is doing so because we are afraid.

Of course, I have always thought that the reason many of us do not do sparring is because our teachers do not have us do it and we should do what they say and put our trust in them. Silly me.  

I have this wacky idea that we should follow what our teachers do. And before we do something they have done, but are not having us do (or do a lot of) then we should know why before we take in on ourselves to do it. Maybe we are not ready, maybe there was a reason they dropped something. And I have gotten the weird idea after going to the Japanese week after week, year after year, that the idea of competition is something to be avoided. I have done some stuff where the outcome has not been determined, but that has been very rare. Most of the time we do something to work on and improve my taijutsu by other means. Strange thing, but I actually think I should be working on the stuff that these little guys tell me to work on rather than something else.

Of course, I do not think anyone in Japan has gone through the type of training Peytonn Quinn does with his adrenal stress training with suits and such. So I do not feel bad trying it out and considering using it if I move back to the states. But I would be very cautious.

After all, I complain a lot about people that will watch what the teachers do here in Japan and then do something completely different. It would be rather hypocritical of me to then do something similar when I move back to the states. Of course, my response would be that I do not think that the Japanese are aware of what a bulletman suit is. And I do not know how I can do the type of training I have done when there is just a few of us trusted students in the dojo here in Japan in America with all its lawyers and willingness to sue. The responses of those that seem to do anything other than the stuff being shown is along the line that they think for themselves. I do not understand why people would bother showing up for training with that type of attitude since students need to acknowledge that they do not know as much as the teacher. The teacher has been where we have not.

Of course, it has been my observation that some folks will just knock on the doors of as many teachers until they find one that will tell them what they want to hear. With all the various ways of looking at things, there is no shortage of finding someone or some art that will tell us our way of thinking is right. Then they feel justified in rejecting all the many, many masters they had asked before and even feel like attacking them since they are obviously not as great as the truth that is so obvious to us- since of course a student knows so very, very much.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Reading through many of these posts, it is so clear that some people are so well intentioned, really doing their best to be good students. Really trying to do the "right thing". But just living in a world of make believe.


 
Sooner or later, everyone finds out that trying to catch a free-moving arm and "putting on" wrist locks etc. on someone who doesn't want that is pretty much impossible. What strikes me, is that you took this realization a bit harder than others. No disrespect intended.



makoto-dojo said:


> When I read things like people saying that you can do oi tsuki and leave your arm hanging out there... Well... It is So CLEAR, *SOOO* Clear that they have NEVER tried that against a MMA fight, or a kick boxer, or a boxer, or a kali man, or a karate man or a kung fu man or a tae kwon do man etc. In a live situation _(i.e. no rag-dolls)_!


 
From what I've gathered, bare-knuckle boxers in 19th century England used to have their weight on their rear leg and arms extended towards the opponent ichimonji style, mainly for the reason that there was no judge to separate the fighters in a clinch.



makoto-dojo said:


> What if after so many years training I find that I am really not as good or "far along" as I once thought I was?


 
Oft-repeated quote of my instructor: "if you're going get beaten to death by somebody way better than you, make damn sure you don't die surprised."



makoto-dojo said:


> A zen master has said, in the beginners mind there are many possibilities, in the masters mind there are but a few... (or something like that  )


 
I always think to myself that if this were really true, Hatsumi would probably be the best beginner in the world...:ultracool 

The way I interpret that personally is that the masters are much more adept at the concept of "mikiri", i.e. to see through the opponent's movements (kind of like the fact that elbows move slower than wrists and as such are more easily controlled).



makoto-dojo said:


> but I was told that I was free to "jump him" if I wanted and I would end up in the hospital..  Even my ex-student told me that HE would put me in the hospital LOL!


 
The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.


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## bydand (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.



PASS!! I don't have that good of life insurance and I have a family to think of. 

Man if I have to ba afraid of stepping into the light, I hope Wal-Mart has rubber undies my size. I have to follow what those who are much, much better than I am (and probably ever will be) are teaching me.  I am not about to muck it up by adding things before my level of training dictates it should be shown to me.  Notice I said SHOWN to me, not ADDED.  I am confident in my instructors abilities to impart the knowledge that I am ready for and not muddy up the water with additions that I am not ready for.  Does what I have been taught work so far against the average aggressive drunk?  Yes, it does; I know it does because you will not find "alter boy" anywhere on my lifes resume.  Would it work against a professional fighter? Nope, I'd get my *** handed to me.  Is that a shortcoming to my training?  NO! that is a shortcoming in my ability and *length* of training.


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## Alan Witty (Jan 26, 2007)

All I can say to this and every similar discussion is BORING.  Reality and martial arts are what you make them.  There are only a mathematically limited set of ways to hurt, maim etc another human being. All martial arts are variants on that basic theme with add on of weapons, etc.  If the concepts are sound the practitioner is what makes it work. Ability and the willingness to apply it.

Second, given the many people in the Bujinkan, much less any other martial art, how can one generalize? Everyone will bring to it what they have in terms of skill, focus and an underlying willingness to actually do something to another person. Training will differ from one Dojo to another hopefully focused on the fundamental themes and concepts.  If the issue is that there are lousy Bujinkan instructors there probably are, just as there are lousy and ineffective instructors in all of the arts.

I can think of no reason I would attack someone unless I needed to defend myself, friends, dogs or family. When it comes down to that all options are open.  Having lived in some pretty violent countries, served in the military and coming from an ethnic group that someone tried to wipe from the face of the earth not to long ago, and there are plenty more who would still like to do so, that is why I train and how I teach.  In our Dojo we hit hard, train against resistance, do regular non scripted response drills, etc.  All along with the core material and the years theme.

There are 6 billion people in the world.  The math is easy. You are more likely to be fighting against a thief, murderer, drunk, mugger etc than another martial artist.  I would add that democracy is fragile.  This is based on a study of history and political science.  That means you could end up fighting against your neighbor.  Depends. So if that is the math than some choose to train to address those issues and because they enjoy the art they are training in.

This is not to say I have anything against any art.  To the contrary.  They all have something.  What is BORING are broad based statements such as "ground fighting" is the end all. I owned a bar. Trust me when the fights occurred the last place you wanted to be was on the ground.  At the same time it is important.  Or X art s..ks.  So how many people are in X art and are they allllllllllllllllllll bad.

The all too frequent theme is you can't prove it works or you need to stress test it.  It is still not real as the other person or persons are not out to kill you.  Black eyes, blown tendons, etc are not death.  If testing is the issue than join up, do private security work, get a job as a LEO or go into a real bad neighborhood and tell some nasty guy to  F off.  If you come home and protect your buddies it works.  


In case you are wondering I served, studied Hapkido in Colombia where we did kumite every class with no cup, pads or mouth gear on concrete. Add to this resisting my instructors in the Bujinkan on many occasions, unscripted, and shown how well the techniques work.  At that I a 5'10", have weighed between 195 and 205 between 12 to 20% body fat, lift heavy 3 times a week, swim, bike and hike at 3.5mph with a 20lb pack 16 to 25 miles every week in the summer at over 10,000 ft.  Point is I am not a couch potatoe.

Also, I always wonder about any person who says they have "seen the light".  This is like someone who tells you how "self aware" they are.  An oxymoron.  The reality is that there is no light.  Just the gray space we call life.


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## Rook (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> From what I've gathered, bare-knuckle boxers in 19th century England used to have their weight on their rear leg and arms extended towards the opponent ichimonji style, mainly for the reason that there was no judge to separate the fighters in a clinch.


 
Boxing stances, techniques and training were not standardized in the way they are today prior to the early 20th century.  Before then, you would have seen a proliferation of different boxing stances, including the heavily backweighted (one manuel I have seen advocated 10-90) and the heavily front weighted (one manuel I have seen advocated 90-10) and pretty much everything in between.  Perhaps someone more knowledgable with jump in and discuss the relative frequency of their use.  



> The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.


 
To whom is this invitation extended?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2007)

Rook said:


> To whom is this invitation extended?


 
The way I understand it, pretty much anyone.


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## Rook (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> The way I understand it, pretty much anyone.


 
Let me make sure I am reading this correctly.  Hatsumi is available to be challenged by anyone?  If I were to create an account on bullshido and try to see if we could get a low-level pro to fight him, Hatsumi would be open to the fight taking place?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2007)

I never said he'd take somebody up on a challenge. What I'm saying is that he's told people at Taikai etc. several times that they're free to take a shot at him whenever they want.


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## Rook (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> I never said he'd take somebody up on a challenge. What I'm saying is that he's told people at Taikai etc. several times that they're free to take a shot at him whenever they want.


 
Ok.  Who is permitted to attend these Taikais and is this invitation extended as a matter of course or only on one or two occasions in the past?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2007)

There aren't any Taikais or large seminar with Hatsumi or Shihan attending outside Japan anymore.


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## Rook (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> There aren't any Taikais or large seminar with Hatsumi or Shihan attending outside Japan anymore.


 
You told Makoto Dojo 



> The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.


 
in your post from 8:40.  Where would Makoto Dojo or anyone else to whom the invitation is extended have the opportunity to do so freely today if desired?


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 26, 2007)

Japan. Duh. 

However, you have to be a Bujinkan member to attend training in Hombu or Ayase. Of course, that doesn't mean you can't rush in trying to pick a fight anyway, though I wouldn't recommend it.


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## Cryozombie (Jan 26, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> However, you have to be a Bujinkan member to attend training in Hombu or Ayase.



Well, thats not hard, membership is cheap... and I only bring this up so the excuse that people can't really do it because they have to be Bujinkan doesn't come up as the cop out...


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## Cryozombie (Jan 26, 2007)

Cryozombie said:


> Well, thats not hard, membership is cheap... and I only bring this up so the excuse that people can't really do it because they have to be Bujinkan doesn't come up as the cop out...



NOT, BTW, that I would be advocating this sort of behavior...


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## paolo_italy (Jan 27, 2007)

mh, speaking of challenges to shihan's and the soke for themselves (ie without them writing it here or somewhere else) seems to me very disrespectful, not to mention that it could create a big problem to someone.
isn't such behaviour the opposite of ninpo?

that's really sad, in my opinion...

bye,

paolo


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

Not at all my intention. I'll leave it up to the mods if they want to leave what I wrote here up or not.


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## Bujingodai (Jan 27, 2007)

I'd concur that this has become a really stupid discussion.
And as for training in the honbu having to be a member, well no one checked my card when I was there. Among the 100 that were there I don't think anyone would have that hard a time coming in.

But the conversation is just sad.
You know even if I thought I had the secret to knocking down Nagato for instance (I don't) I wouldn't out of respect, why are we entertaining this.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

Bujingodai said:


> I'd concur that this has become a really stupid discussion.
> And as for training in the honbu having to be a member, well no one checked my card when I was there. Among the 100 that were there I don't think anyone would have that hard a time coming in.
> 
> But the conversation is just sad.
> You know even if I thought I had the secret to knocking down Nagato for instance (I don't) I wouldn't out of respect, why are we entertaining this.


 
I would have to agree that this conversation is very, very sad and is going down a poor path.

Maybe we can return to the origional poster's post and have Richard clarify why his training at the Makoto Dojo and in the Genbukan particularly has shown him the light.  As I said earlier I am particularly interested in hearing about the Genbukans training methodology as it is one of the three X-Kan's and Tanemura sensei is a fabulous technician.  So if there is an abundance of pressure testing in the Genbukan I would be curious to hear about it in detail.  For posterities sake and also to let everyone know about how the Genbukan does things.  

If you do not want the Genbukan training methodology to be in this thread we can start up another.  For myself I am just curious about what you are doing.  Thanks.


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## HG1 (Jan 27, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> And I do not know how I can do the type of training I have done when there is just a few of us trusted students in the dojo here......


Excellent point - I don't come from a Ninjutsu school but I know exactly what you mean.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

bencole said:


> I'd like to hear you describe what unfolded that allowed you to choke him out, or him you.
> 
> All the best,
> 
> -ben


 
Ben,

you and I just do not see eye to eye. My opinions and what not are exact opposite of yours. These sorts of exchanges (_between us_) will only lead to bickering back and forth and is a waste of time as neither one of us will change our minds. I truly believe that your methods of training or not the best way to achieve real world results, you feel the same about mine.

So lets agree to disagree I suppose and move on.

TRegarding rolling with my own Soke. If it were proper and allowed and he agreed, I would LOVE to do so! I would love to roll with anyone because I always learn something. But it is not allowed and or proper so I would never entertain the thought. maybe I can get some of my seniors to roll some day who knows?

Point is, it is not to see who is better than someone else, it is to LEARN, people who actually do randori respect each others after. (I amnot talking about sports either as SO many seem to read when they hear or see randori or alive training.) Just as I respect my partners when I do kata with them, I also respect them when I roll with them.

Alas, its a culture that those who don't do it will never understand..

Best regard Ben,


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Rook said:


> Should I take this to mean that Nagato of BBT and Tanemura of Genbukan are available to such matches? If that is the case, it should not be too difficult to find them appropriately matched opponents who would be more then willing to try them out.


 

In my opinion I feel it is RUDE to talk about such things. *I* NEVER said anything like this. This is a Ben Cole tactic he has used for years. It is rude..

IMO...

The thread should move away from this subject...


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Ben I really do not think that there is massive sparring of any sort within Genbukan. All I have seen is a little bit of work with a Shinai and only targeting the wrists. (which had gloves on it) *No* I am not disparaging the Genbukan or Soke Tanemura (He is great at what he does) in any way just based on what I have seen and heard from several Genbukan practitioners. The Genbukan, Jinekan and Bujinkan are very close in their training methodologies with slight but subtle nuances to each. Soke Hatsumi who taught Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei is definately more focused on flow and letting go and being able to move in the moment. Tanemura Sensei is more thorough and wants his students to be precise. (nothing wrong with that) Manaka Sensei is moving in his own direction as well. However all three bear striking similarities to the other. (how could they not)


 
Hello, respectfully, I would like to say that what you know of the genbukan is very limited, as that is the way the genbukan is. So seeing things online, believe me you are not seeing much. Talking to Genbukan people? There is MUCH they will not tell you.

The ONLY way to know what the Genbukan is, is to join, develop a relationship with a teacher and go from there.

And please, people, try to understand that *I* am *NOT THE GENBUKAN *I am me! I still teach JKD, Kali and grappling and have all these years! It is not like I joined the genbukan and gave up everything else I know.. I am talking about sparring and drilling as an INDIVIDUAL, not as an organization. Please see that and I think allot of useless posts will be stopped (not saying yours is useless mind you)



Brian R. VanCise said:


> Richard I applaud you for training and taking your training in a direction that you see fit. However, I have noticed that you seem to be out to prove something here and are pushing ever so slightly in that direction.
> Just enough but not too much. (if you catch my drift) MartialTalk is a forum geared towards friendly martial discussion. I would like to see you make some posts regarding positive training that you have had in the
> Genbukan and also why you like this or that type of training within the
> Genbukan.


 
You are incorrect...

I have specific feelings towards training, there have been some threads about reality training, so I am expressing my views on that subject and that is all. I have different views on different subjects...

Is ben cole out to "prove something"? I ask that honestly.. What about Don Roley? Both of these gentelmen have VERY strong opinionated views on things, have they been accused of being out to prove something?

I disagree with much of what each writes, and also I AGREE with allot of what they write, but even when I disagree I do not think they are out to "prove something" I feel they have strong opinions on certain subjects that's all.

It is a discussion forum right? Where we can debate?

Or only are we allowed to agree with the masses, does the "mob rule"?


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Don Roley said:


> I think that the title of this thread is a pretty clear hint that anyone that does not train the way he wants us to is doing so because we are afraid.


 
Mr Roley,

you are correct, the title could cause these feelings to arise, and for that I am sorry. It was written tongue-in-cheek. I tend to try to wax poetic in my posts Sumimasen.

But I understand your feelings on this, I do not think you or others are afraid, SOME may be, but I feel in your case and even ben's I think it has much less to do with being afraid, and much more to do with you both are sincerely trying to follow the teachings of people whom you obviously respect a great deal. And, I would never insult you for that, instead, I applaud you for having such strong convictions.

I hope that helps to clear things up a bit.

Sincerely,


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> The way I understand it you're free to jump any Shihan in the Bujinkan including Hatsumi.


 
With all due respect this is really a silly thing to say...


Regards,


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Hello, respectfully, I would like to say that what you know of the genbukan is very limited, as that is the way the genbukan is. So seeing things online, believe me you are not seeing much. Talking to Genbukan people? There is MUCH they will not tell you.
> 
> The ONLY way to know what the Genbukan is, is to join, develop a relationship with a teacher and go from there.
> 
> ...


 
First Richard you are trying to speak in absolutes.  You have no idea what I truly might know about the Genbukan or any other member here at MartialTalk for that matter.  *Truthfully* you just do not know.

Clearly everyone here knows that you are *not the Genbukan*!  That is obvious. (though you are a part of the organization)

Finally you are in the Traditional Ninjutsu section of the forum where we generally discuss Budo Taijutsu training.  You are advocating that you know the true way and it is so clear. (note I am not disagreeing with you there just questioning)  However in Budo Taijutsu which is the forerunner of any of the X-Kans you are starting or trying to push people that know about Budo Taijutsu training better than yourself that the training methodology coming out of japan is a *fantasy*. (do you see why some people now might be upset with that)  

Personally I have no gripe here with your training methodology or how you train and incorporate sparring or rolling. (I do that myself in IRT)  However I also understand how Budo Taijutsu is taught in Japan having been there and understand I believe why Hatsumi is teaching this way.

We do however have other sections for MMA/Grappling which is probably where your alive training posts should be taken at this time.

Once again I think you just need to be in the correct part of the MartialTalk forums and maybe _carefully_ word your statements to stay in line with our *Friendly type of Discussion Forum*!  

Truthfully I am glad you are here but you need to work within our friendly guidelines.  Thanks.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Instead of going post by post and trying to clear up misconceptions (I just don't have time) I will just sum up my thoughts instead.

Randori in my mind does NOT = sports. It is a training method like others, with weakness and strength like all others. But in MY opinion, required for training. In MY opinion and that won't change...

I do not think any "kan" "sucks" as I think someone put it, nor do I think this of any Kan-Cho of any kan...

I do not think people who don't do as I do are afraid as a general rule. I DO think SOME are, but respect that others might just be trying to do their best to follow advice from people they trust. The title was poetic metaphor, as tends to be my personal bent... I appologize for any hurt feelings due to this title.

I am not the genbukan. I am me. I have my own opinions and feelings. These are what I express in discussions. My Soke's opinions might at times be VERY different than mine! I didn't see any cool-aid at the door when I was in Japan btw.. Genbukan is one of the organizations I belong to, it is not "who I am"

lastly, it is my personal belief that a person needs EXPERIENCE in order to really know something, very simple actually. When I see  things like leaving your arm out there on purpose, I KNOW *KNOW *from personal experience, that that can be a *VERY* dangerous thing to do. I was offering a suggestion to others to think for themselves, when you do, there is no going back!

And while I am sure that my final statement will upset people (it is hard to stand for something and NOT upset at least a few people) I do believe that there are people who are afraid to lose what they think they have, and will use bullying and other methods to stop people from gaining personal power and experience. Because once you have seen something for yourself, you cannot go back.

Again, these are my opinions on a topic, of course not everyone will agree.

Good luck..


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Because once you have seen something for yourself, you cannot go back.


 
Which is exactly what I was trying to get across in my recent inputs to "the rant thread". Too much sparring tends to close people's minds as to the possibilities taijutsu offers.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Finally you are in the Traditional Ninjutsu section of the forum where we generally discuss Budo Taijutsu training. You are advocating that you know the true way and it is so clear. (note I am not disagreeing with you there just questioning) However in Budo Taijutsu which is the forerunner of any of the X-Kans you are starting or trying to push people that know about Budo Taijutsu training better than yourself that the training methodology coming out of japan is a *fantasy*. (do you see why some people now might be upset with that)


 
Incorrect.

I do not think *I* know the "true" way to train Budo Taijutsu. I suppose that hatsumi San would be the once for that as it is his creation not mine. I was never stating that at all!

I was however stating that BEYOND systems Kans, Styles, there are people! And that each PERSON irrespective of their "affiliations" owe it to themselves to gain EXPERIENCE and KNOW for themselves. That is it in a nutshell.

For example, I think Randori is essential for an INDIVIDUAL in order for that person to KNOW what they can and cannot do. I never said it would make "budo taijutsu better" To get good at "budo Taijutsu" follow what your kan-cho is telling you as best you can.

However Just being good at any "style" does not assure you that you yourself can handle various attacks. As an example, there is a well known incident where a person of VERY high rank and one considered VERY good at Budo Taijutsu was man handled by a BJJ beginner in front of a group of people. His being very good at BBT didn't help much in that case did it? The man was helpless...

There have been people who were "VERY GOOD" at JKD and went into a situation and got there butts handed to them!  One of my old teachers Burt Richardson was WORLD CLASS at kali, he went into a Dog brothers contest and had his head handed to him.

You see my point yet?

I am not trying to tell people how to get good at BBT. not at all, don't listen to me on that one, listen to your kan-Cho!

I am sharing my strong opinion that each of us owe it to ourselves to "step into the light" of self discovery as individuals not styles and be honest with ourselves. I am not "telling" people they HAVE TO DO IT. I am however of a strong bent in that direction and I hope my obvious enthusiasm might inspire others in a simialr direction, simply because I sincerely believe it would be good for them.

However I must say that I didn't know that this was for Budo taijutsu discussion because I thought it read:



> *This forum is for the discussion of the X-Kan families. They are: BujinKan, Genbukan and JinenKan*


 
Now that I know this I will respectfully bow out.

In addition I feel I have went out of my way to be respectful here, you feel it is not enough...

I think there might be other issues at work personally, but who knows. It just mightbe a bit too touchey feely for me heare.

but thanks for the invite non the less.

Take care,


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Nimravus said:


> Which is exactly what I was trying to get across in my recent inputs to "the rant thread". Too much sparring tends to close people's minds as to the possibilities taijutsu offers.


 

I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..

Balance neh?


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## Carol (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..
> 
> Balance neh?


 
Hai so desu.  I'm wondering if some of the concerns about sparring draw from its popularity in other arts/styles and if that is perhaps throwing the balance off a bit.

Plus, sparring is a lot of fun and (not speaking as a JMA practitioner, but as a musician), sometimes in the discipline of an art, what is fun is can sometimes take away from the other elements of pursuing the discipline.

Thats just my thoughts though


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Incorrect.
> 
> I do not think *I* know the "true" way to train Budo Taijutsu. I suppose that hatsumi San would be the once for that as it is his creation not mine. I was never stating that at all!
> 
> ...


 
Richard you are not going to get an argument from me on some of what you say.  However it is more the way you phrase things and try to promote those things.  You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon.  Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San.  Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan.  I would not refer to Tanemura Soke as anything other than Tanemura Soke or Sensei.  

For myself in IRT I have plenty of sparring.  However generally in Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan training as taught in Japan there is not much. (this we all know)  

A strong well formed and well written opinoin is generally appreciated by all.  I would like most of your opinons if they were slightly worded differently.  These then would conform nicely with how MartialTalk is viewed as a friendly martial arts forum.


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## Seattletcj (Jan 27, 2007)

I hate to cause waves with you Brian, because you are the most level headed guy here IMO.
There does seem to be a double standard though, or maybe just a blind eye to some who are percieved as "experts", or "seniors".
Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion.  He was actually encouraged by many posters.

I dont think Richards post warrants this much controversy , especially when looking at the rant thread where people and methods are constantly being degraded etc. 

Just my opinions though, which by looking at my reputation points are obviously worth nothing really.  :wah:

Anyway...carry on


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Richard you are not going to get an argument from me on some of what you say. However it is more the way you phrase things and try to promote those things. You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon. Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San. Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan. I would not refer to Tanemura Soke as anything other than Tanemura Soke or Sensei.


 
Sigh...

As far as incorrect, that is the way I speak, I do not feel it is disrespectful to say incorrect when something is.. You cannot hear my voice or see my face or feel me, you are reading into everything and deeming it disrespectful and worse yet saying I a trying to mask my true intentions. MAJOR assumptions on your part! And yes, these are also incorrect. Look at some other posters here on martial talk and the OUTRIGHT disrespect shown. I assume it to be a matter of "clicks and groups" personally. Sorry, just my opinion...

I call Mr. Hatsumi just that or Hatsumi San which is respectful. For God sakes Ben Cole has called my teacher "Mr. T."! I do not call him Sensei or Soke because he is not my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't call mr. manaka Sensei or Soke even though I have great respect for both men, they are NOT my Sensei or Soke. Just like I don't say Ueshiba Sensei etc.. 

You are also incorrect in that Mr. Hatsumi is not the Soke of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, he is the "kan-cho" Just like tanemura Sensei is Kan-Cho of Genbukan. Again, not disrespect, just correct terms and nothing more.

I personally feel that you calling Tanemura Sensei "sensei" is incorrect (he is not your teacher) and disrespectful to Mr. Hatsumi. again my personal feelings here your milage may vary...

In the end I feel you are grasping at straws and LOOKING to find what you want to find. At least that is how it seems to me...



Brian R. VanCise said:


> For myself in IRT I have plenty of sparring. However generally in Bujinkan, Genbukan or Jinekan training as taught in Japan there is not much. (this we all know)


 
What about it?



Brian R. VanCise said:


> A strong well formed and well written opinoin is generally appreciated by all. I would like most of your opinons if they were slightly worded differently. These then would conform nicely with how MartialTalk is viewed as a friendly martial arts forum.



Again, I feel what I have written has been respectful. I think you are on the hunt for things to get offended by. I hope that my explainations to these offensive words have helped you to understand what I said a little better.


Now, what about the other folks here who have been very obvious with their offense? I know some have appologized (thaks for that and no worries..) on this thread, but there are other examples, why not up in arms with them?

It is interesting to say the least.

Anyway, like I said, I have no intentions on posting any new threads here in this section of martial talk as I didn't understand it was a Budo taijutsu forum, sumimasen. I also won't bother to add opinions to any other ongoing threads in this section.

I will stay around a bit to clear up any loose ends on these threads and then move on. martial talk has other forums where my view points might better "fit in" Its a nice site I enoy it! 

Regards,


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## saru1968 (Jan 27, 2007)

I think the issue seems to be not what is said but how its worded...

I'm guilty of it myself on occasion.

Slightly different situation really to your comment about Ben's post, seattleCJ


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

Seattletcj said:


> I hate to cause waves with you Brian, because you are the most level headed guy here IMO.
> There does seem to be a double standard though, or maybe just a blind eye to some who are percieved as "experts", or "seniors".
> Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion. He was actually encouraged by many posters.
> 
> ...


 
Actually your opinions as are everyone's are very important.  No waves caused.  We also try not to have any double standards here at MartialTalk and if you ever have a post that you think is out of line please report it.
At that point we discuss what to do or if anything needs to be done regarding it.


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> I agree with you too much sparring could be very counter productive. So can too much kata only, too much henka only etc..
> 
> Balance neh?


 
Sure, but get this - I'm willing to bet a lot that the Bujinkan "subculture" which employs frequent usage of sparring came about because a lot of people were brought out of their naive "invincibility" phase in a way too blunt fashion. It happened to me as well, but I'm over it. I think.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Sigh...
> 
> As far as incorrect, that is the way I speak, I do not feel it is disrespectful to say incorrect when something is.. You cannot hear my voice or see my face or feel me, you are reading into everything and deeming it disrespectful and worse yet saying I a trying to mask my true intentions. MAJOR assumptions on your part! And yes, these are also incorrect. Look at some other posters here on martial talk and the OUTRIGHT disrespect shown. I assume it to be a matter of "clicks and groups" personally. Sorry, just my opinion...
> 
> ...


 
First Richard do not worry to much about me being offended I have incredibly thick skin and since I am moderating here I am trying to keep this a *friendly discussion* forum as per what MartialTalk is all about.  My advice to you is to look at how you word things when you type thinking through if you are going to offend or not. ( is that really to much to ask)

I think we are having a miscommunication problem here based on the internets inherent limitations.  Yet I think you will find that your problems with here and other forums will be alot less if you carefully think through how you word your posts regarding these inherent limitations of the internet.

As for this particular forum it is for Traditional Ninjutsu which as we all know that last lines come from down from Takamatsu Sensei to Hatsumi Sensei (Bujinkan) and eventually to Tanemura Sensei and Manaka Sensei.
So technically we are interested in friendly talk regarding the Genbukan and Jinekan.  So you are welcome to post here as well in a friendly manner. (I for one would enjoy that)  Good luck.


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## bencole (Jan 27, 2007)

Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> I truly believe that your methods of training or not the best way to achieve real world results, you feel the same about mine. (snip) Regarding rolling with my own Soke. If it were proper and allowed and he agreed, I would LOVE to do so! (snip) But it is not allowed and or proper so I would never entertain the thought.


 
So for the record, you agree that the methods of training used by Mr. Tanemura are also "not the best way to achieve real world results." I just want you to confirm this for me and him....



			
				Makoto Dojo said:
			
		

> It was written tongue-in-cheek.


 
I do not think anyone honestly believes this, which is precisely why Brian has taken time to suggest other ways of wording things.



Seattletcj said:


> Recently I remember someone saying that a poster deserved a shuto to the jaw for being so naive. I didnt see the individual being personally repremanded for crossing the line of friendly discussion. He was actually encouraged by many posters.


 
That individual was placed in the sin bin and warned by *TWO* different moderators that what had been said was inappropriate. Your point is what: That because you did not see a public reprimand that the moderators were not doing their jobs?

(insert Bill the Cat sound here)



			
				Rook said:
			
		

> Boxing stances, techniques and training were not standardized in the way they are today prior to the early 20th century. Before then, you would have seen a proliferation of different boxing stances


 


			
				Cryozombie said:
			
		

> Its amazing how quickly Martial Talk has _devolved_ into "Bullshido, Jr." and how you cannot have any kind of discussion without "MMA will kick your ***, LARPER!" coming up on here...


 
I agree with Cryo. 

It would be a true shame if the world of martial arts were reduced down into MMA rolling with "standardized" methods.... Alas, this seems to be the sole thrust of these "alive" proponents.

-ben


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## Tenchijin2 (Jan 27, 2007)

As an observer, with no dog in this fight, I'd like to say that it really appears to me that Richard has gone out of his way to be careful and polite in this discussion.

The same cannot be said of many of the counter posters. Really, the nastiness coming from MY SIDE (the Bujinkan side) is really embarassing. Upping the ante, begging the question, strawman tactics. It's sickening to read.

And I'm just calling it as I see it. I have had plenty of rows online with Richard over the years, and I am perfectly willing to call a spade a spade if I see it. But this aint it, folks.

Rick's main point isn't even controversial: if you want to know what you're capable of doing under pressure, you have to actually put yourself under some kinds of pressure to find out. Your instructor's assessments, your faith, your lineage, your assumptions... NONE of those things can replace actual experience in spontaneous application of what you know in various controlled environments. None of them are perfect, but to throw out 'sparring' or 'alive' training because it isn't perfect is to let the perfect be the enemy of the good.

And seriously folks, I don't even do a whole lot of 'alive' type training but I'm not going to deny it's appeal or its strengths. That's just silly.

I realize that I've opened myself up to all manner of nasty insinuations and criticisms which are pretty much the standard for these 'debates', so I shan't be responding. I just hope that my (relatively) objective viewpoint gets through to some of the heads here.

Carry on, then!


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

bencole said:


> So for the record, you agree that the methods of training used by Mr. Tanemura are also "not the best way to achieve real world results." I just want you to confirm this for me and him....


 
Incorrect.

Your methods and Tanemura Sensei's methods are VERY different "for the record" Also for the record, did you know Jinenkan people do Randori as does their Kancho? No.. You may not include "your" training methods  nor "conceptual ideas" with those of my Soke. As they are not the same. In fact you yourself in another thread have commented that My teacher had it all wrong anyway, so then how can you and he be doing the same thing?

Did you know that tanemura sensei has us practice against boxing attacks? Yep... How about the fact he never has told us to leave our arm sticking out there? You have NO idea of what Tanemura sensei teaches.

Do you Ben include lock flows, counter for counter drills, trapping combinations, randori of various sorts, weapons and without, arm conditioning drills, makiwara training, ground fighting, chi gung, different forms of meditation, kuji kiri etc.. In your training? What about the fact that Tanemura Sensei teaches us that we must modify the kihon at times to deal with kick boxers etc?

Do you do fast karate style punches in rapid combinations, "dragon tail" type sweep kicks, jumping kicks of various sorts, "karate type" speed blocking?

Yeah, my disagreeing with YOU and YOUR methods is NOT the same as me disagreeing with Tanemura Sensei's methods. not even in the same ball park!

Tanemura Sensei thinks kata is impotant. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei thinks strong kihon is important. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei thinks we must adapt to dealing with different styles. So do I!
Tanemura Sensei shows us various randori. I also think this is important!
The list goes on.. I happen to agree very well with what Tanemura Sensei does.

Please try barking up another tree...


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

I truly appreciate this post. You hit the nail on the head. Thank you for saying this, especially when you have opened yourself up to abuse for having done so. You didn't have to and you did.

Thank you.

Sincerely,




Tenchijin2 said:


> As an observer, with no dog in this fight, I'd like to say that it really appears to me that Richard has gone out of his way to be careful and polite in this discussion.
> 
> The same cannot be said of many of the counter posters. Really, the nastiness coming from MY SIDE (the Bujinkan side) is really embarassing. Upping the ante, begging the question, strawman tactics. It's sickening to read.
> 
> ...


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## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> Also for the record, did you know Jinenkan people do Randori as does their Kancho? No..


 
From what I've heard, they have even higher requirements (than the Bujinkan, sadly) of the people doing it to have their stuff together beforehand.



makoto-dojo said:


> Did you know that tanemura sensei has us practice against boxing attacks? Yep...


 
Is this done against other Genbukan practitioners, or do you employ outside professionals? I'll freely admit that we don't where I train, but the training method as such has been around for as long as I can remember. 



makoto-dojo said:


> Do you Ben include lock flows, counter for counter drills, trapping combinations, randori of various sorts, weapons and without, arm conditioning drills, makiwara training, ground fighting, chi gung, different forms of meditation, kuji kiri etc.. In your training?


 
We do, apart from the last bit, if anyone's interested.



makoto-dojo said:


> What about the fact that Tanemura Sensei teaches us that we must modify the kihon at times to deal with kick boxers etc?


 
Excellent. However, he's not alone in the X-kan world in that regard.



makoto-dojo said:


> Do you do fast karate style punches in rapid combinations, "dragon tail" type sweep kicks, jumping kicks of various sorts, "karate type" speed blocking?


 
Been there, done that, apart from the last segment, which I'm not sure I understand.


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

bencole said:


> It would be a true shame if the world of martial arts were reduced down into MMA rolling with "standardized" methods.... Alas, this seems to be the sole thrust of these "alive" proponents.


 
Perhaps a bit of historical overview into how boxing, sub grappling and now MMA have come to be standardized is in order...  No one forced standardization on any of these people.  There was no committee that compelled it, no grandmaster that told them they should all fight in the same manner, there was no law passed saying that they had to fight that way, there was no rule that said that other strategies or techniques were prohibited.  It just happened that certain strategies were more sucessful, and with the "put up or shut up" competition attitude, everything that was less sucessful faded into the history books.  Even today, no one will stop you from stepping into a boxing ring with a 10-90 stance... you won't do too well, but thats boxing for you - no one is going to get a reputation as a boxer or a coach of boxers without the ring record to back it up.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Brian R. VanCise said:


> You cannot mask brazen or disrepectful as a strong opinon. Take for example the start of this particular post : Incorrect or that you refer to Hatsumi Soke as hatsumi San. *Or the use of Kan-Cho instead of as you well know what is used in the Bujinkan is Shidoshi or Shihan.*


 

From the Jinenkan thread you started:



> Just an FYI _Manaka Sensei does not claim to be a Soke. The title he uses for the Jinenkan Org._* is Kancho*.


 Quote from Dale Joseph.

Just wanted to point out once again the power of reading into things and how it colors perception. I was in fact using correct respectful terms. The Bujinkan is NOT a Ryu. It is a Kan. Hatsumi Massaki is the KANCHO of the Bujinkan NOT its soke. And also unless you are currently studying a ryu ha with him, not your Soke, but your Kancho.

I am just using the language correctly. Not being disrespectful.

Thank you.


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> The Bujinkan is NOT a Ryu. It is a Kan. Hatsumi Massaki is the KANCHO of the Bujinkan NOT its soke. And also unless you are currently studying a ryu ha with him, not your Soke, but your Kancho.
> 
> I am just using the language correctly. Not being disrespectful.
> 
> Thank you.


 
That sounds right.  Isn't Hatsumi soke of the nine schools, not of the BBT, which is an organization not a ryu?


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## Rook (Jan 27, 2007)

makoto-dojo said:


> In my opinion I feel it is RUDE to talk about such things. *I* NEVER said anything like this. This is a Ben Cole tactic he has used for years. It is rude..
> 
> IMO...
> 
> The thread should move away from this subject...


 
I see no reason why.  Mr. Cole raised the subject, and the use of such tactics could resolve this whole repetitive debate.  It appears that they are not, however, available, which is unfortunate.


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## makoto-dojo (Jan 27, 2007)

Rook said:


> This might be a good question for the mods - should pressure testing, aliveness, street-vs.-sport, all ranges, etc. be recentralized in the MMA section rather than in the art it relates to? I wouldn't mind it as a person who frequents the MMA section, and I can see pros and cons for either way.


 
Hi,

I never understood why many people automatically lump randori with sport and MMA (Not saying you are btw, I think you made a good post) Randori/sparring is a part of most TRADITIONAL martial arts I can think of. lets see, here is a list of traditional arts that do randori or spar:


Japanese Jujutsu of various Ryu
Some kenjutsu
Aikido
All kung fu styles (maybe not all teachers but all styles)
Karate
Tae Kwon Do, Hap Ki Do
Hwa Rang Do
Tae Kyon
All western martial arts
Now make a list of all "styles" that don't do randori?

Feel free...

Randori does NOT = Sports and MMA.

I think it would be silly to purge the Ninpo section of any randori talk just because Mr. Hatsumi doesn't do it (anymore...) Why put it in the MMA section when it IS traditional in ninpo (reference Takamatsu Sensei, Kimura Sensei etc. Even Mr. Hatsumi has etc..)

But its not my forum so...

It will be interesting to see how it proceeds...


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## Bob Hubbard (Jan 30, 2007)

****Admin Note****

I have done my best to weed out as much of the off-topic posts as I can. There appear to be several different topics that have come up within this thread that involve training techniques, histories, etc which cannot be easily disentangled. As such, I have decided to leave this thread locked, and encourage that those interested in picking up the various discussions do so in new separate threads, and refer back to this one as the starting point.

Thank you.


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