# christian disrespect!



## SAVAGE

I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety! 

A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect 

I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation! 

*bows respectfully*


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## celtic_crippler

Firstly, I do not consider myself affiliated with any established religion. 

With that in mind, I find no reason why you should not be allowed to make the sign of the cross. 

Christian ethics are sound. The principles are similar to most religions, or philosophies concerning the treatment of other individuals. They make sense! 

I would have a problem with this. Anyone in my class that wishes to pray, is given that opportunity. MA is not a religion. My feelings are irrelevent. In order to be fair and just one must respect the idealogy and thoughts of those that may be different. Just because they are different, does not mean they are wrong. 

My 0.02


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## Sarah

I see no disrespect in it, that is your time to 'reflect' etc...unless your school follows a particular religion I dont see what the fuss is about.


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## KenpoEMT

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Seeing someone cross themselves doesn't bother me at all. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that senior approached you about it.


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## sgtmac_46

Meditation, understood for what it is, is a mental activity, not a spiritual one.  Reflecting upon the lessons learned in a calm moment, to try and absorb the techniques and what they mean, is the goal.  As such, I see no contradiction with religious belief at all, as meditation is nothing like 'praying'.  Of course, if that meditation takes the form of a dialogue with the Almighty, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that.


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## Jonathan Randall

Theban_Legion said:
			
		

> I don't see what all the fuss is about. Seeing someone cross themselves doesn't bother me at all. For the life of me, I can't figure out why that senior approached you about it.


 
Me neither. Unfortunately, some people DO have it in for the Christian faith. However, I think the cross IS appropriate for SAVAGE while meditating because that is when you clear your mind and focus upon what is important. To forget your faith at a time such as that IS disrespectful. The only possible point the senior could have had is a worry that SAVAGE was trying to proselytize - a really hasty conclusion.


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## kmguy8

it is going to be hard to reply to your post without bringing down flames (not the biblical kind) in biblical proportions....

were it my class I would be bothered, but then again I to not have meditation time at the end of my classes... if it continued I might ask you to leave solely on that basis if you refused to take the hint...  one of my old teachers (now departed RHS) would certianly have asked you to leave... after hitting you with a shinai over the head (would not have asked you to stop... just hit you)... I miss him....

1.  it is silly to think that simply reflecting constitutes praying to buddha.. I can not understand this silliness, however I have noted it in the overzealous christian being terrified to reflect on anything spirtual without attributing it to god... this is rare from a RC person though....  

2.  meditation is ussually designed to have you focus your energy inward... others newbies who are religious and not catholic and observing your behavior might confuse it with prayer in class and that could put them off the school... i'd be careful if that's what the instructor fears... they might just want to be non-denominational... & your messing that up

3.  you are missing the point of meditation by having an occupied mind rather than certering your mind on your body or emptying it of thought as directed.... in many arts the empty-mind  (mind of no mind)is cultivated and meditation is often intentional and valued as much as the practice is to tire your body....

4.  pray after class.... jenuflexion (spelling) in MA classes is not right... prayer in classes is also not right unless part of the instruction in the south... lol


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## SAVAGE

Jonathan Randall said:
			
		

> proselytize .


 
forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!


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## KenpoEMT

kmguy8 said:
			
		

> ...unless part of the instruction in the south... lol


I am unaware of any near-by schools that teach christianity as part of the curriculum. 
If a martial arts school were used for religious indoctrination, I don't think that it would have a very large student base. Perhaps the class would be filled by members of the local congregation.

Try to read that with a southern accent, ya'll.

SAVAGE: to proselytize is to actively spread ones faith.


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## Jonathan Randall

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!


 
Oh, sorry - to convert others in your class to your religion. By the way, you do very well in English for it being a second language!


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## Paul B

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...


 
OK..this got me. Was there ever anything mentioned about Mokuso being a "prayer" to Bhuddha? If so..it's time to run.

Second..mokuso/mokkyung..it's a time to clear the mind and concentrate on what is at hand.

If you want to concentrate with Christian/Jewish/Islamic whatever overtones..so be it.At least you're actually thinking about what lies ahead and are not thinking about bills/dinner/the wife/..etc..which is the whole damn point of the excercise in mokuso. That's my 2 c's.


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## kmguy8

ummmm... joking...
if we can not pick on the south in the US
what's left?

.... wait 4get that... 
i do not want to know...


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## SAVAGE

kmguy8 said:
			
		

> it is going to be hard to reply to your post without bringing down flames (not the biblical kind) in biblical proportions....
> 
> were it my class I would be bothered, but then again I to not have meditation time at the end of my classes... if it continued I might ask you to leave solely on that basis if you refused to take the hint... one of my old teachers (now departed RHS) would certianly have asked you to leave... after hitting you with a shinai over the head (would not have asked you to stop... just hit you)... I miss him....
> 
> 1. it is silly to think that simply reflecting constitutes praying to buddha.. I can not understand this silliness, however I have noted it in the overzealous christian being terrified to reflect on anything spirtual without attributing it to god... this is rare from a RC person though....
> 
> 2. meditation is ussually designed to have you focus your energy inward... others newbies who are religious and not catholic and observing your behavior might confuse it with prayer in class and that could put them off the school... i'd be careful if that's what the instructor fears... they might just want to be non-denominational... & your messing that up
> 
> 3. you are missing the point of meditation by having an occupied mind rather than certering your mind on your body or emptying it of thought as directed.... in many arts the empty-mind (mind of no mind)is cultivated and meditation is often intentional and valued as much as the practice is to tire your body....
> 
> 4. pray after class.... jenuflexion (spelling) in MA classes is not right... prayer in classes is also not right unless part of the instruction in the south... lol


 
I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things...but I am secure in my belief.....also I do not pray right throughout the meditation..just at the beggining I give a quick word to god...then I ask him to help me reflect then I begin.....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.

As for the confusing the newbies...I am the only white belt...yellow bely since yesterday...but the lowest ranking memeber of the school...so I wont confuse myself....and before you go thinking this is a teenage drama..I am 27, married with child!

As for prayer in class...well what about the martial artists who pray and make signs of crosses before tournament fights or competition...surely by the same token this is not right as well..as they should be concentrating on emptying there mind before the battle!


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## KenpoEMT

kmguy8 said:
			
		

> ummmm... joking...
> if we can not pick on the south in the US
> what's left?


:lol: I suppose a rather large void would be left in many comedians' acts.


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## Paul B

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> ....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.


 
Seriously? 20? How long is a class?


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## Kacey

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> forgive my ignorance...english is not my first language...i have no idea what this means!



 proselytize:  to attempt to convert another person to your beliefs; generally used in a religious context.

I would have to agree with kmguy8 to a certain extent.  When my class meditates at the beginning and end of class, it serves a specific purpose - before class, to clear the mind of the day's events so as to be ready to learn, and at the end of class, to fix information from class in one's mind to help remember it.  To that end, it has nothing to do with prayer; my directions to my students are, at the beginning of class, "clear you minds so you are ready to learn" and at the end of class "think about something you learned so you remember it".  If you are praying, you are almost certainly not doing the latter; depending on how you pray, you may be doing the former.  Either way, I try to keep my class free of religion, for several reasons, not the least of which being that none of my students share my religion (I'm Jewish), compounded by the fact that I teach in a secular facility with roots in a religious facility (YMCA = Young Men's Christian Association).  

In addition, I have had parents of minor students and adults students approach me with concerns about the meditation and possible religious connotations, which would be potentially problematic for them, so I avoid it as much as possible.  While I certainly cannot monitor what a person is thinking when they meditate (nor would I presume to do so), outward manifestions of people's thoughts, such as gestures, may be distracting to other people who are trying to concentrate - and it is from that perspective that I would have a problem with you crossing yourself; not because it is religious, but because it may be distracting for others, in addition to possibly giving observers the wrong idea.

Can you pray when you meditate?  That's up to you.  But if your instructor has asked you not to cross yourself, you need to talk to him to determine why the request was made.  If it is offensive to him, or other class members, for any reason, then you need to be sensitive to that.  Crossing yourself is a gestural representation of prayer; it is not, to my understanding, prayer in itself.  

A reasonable compromise may be that you think about whatever you like, but avoid gestures that may be distracting, or possibly disturbing, to other people.  In addition, if this is a private facility rather than a public one, then the owner/operator/instructor has the legal right to ask you to desist, at least in the US - whether or not he has the moral right is an argument for a different thread.


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## Andrew Green

Depends on the nature of the school.  In most cases I don't think it would be dissrespectful, but if the meditation is seen as a religious ritual I could see that coming off funny.

I'm not Christian, but if I am in a group and a prayer is being said I stand and take part out of respect.  If I go to a Jewish wedding I wear a skull cap in the temple.  I wouldn't alter the rituals to suit my own beliefs, This is there place, there rituals and I am a guest, so I pay the respect and honor them while I am there.

Same as if your group started reciting the lords prayer, it would be rude for someone at the same time to start reciting a Muslim Prayer.  There house, there rules.  If in doubt go to the owner / head instructor and ask what the meditation is and if what you are doing is ok.


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## kmguy8

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things...but I am secure in my belief.....also I do not pray right throughout the meditation..just at the beggining I give a quick word to god...then I ask him to help me reflect then I begin.....we are down there for a good twenty minutes for reflection.



if your secure then ditch the sign of the cross after meditation my friend, if for no other reason than it has pretty clearly been asked of you... shouldn't be a big deal.. it is his/her class right?  20 minutes is a bit long, long enough that would be the rub if it had been me posting, lol



			
				SAVAGE said:
			
		

> As for the confusing the newbies...I am the only white belt...yellow bely since yesterday...but the lowest ranking memeber of the school...so I wont confuse myself....and before you go thinking this is a teenage drama..I am 27, married with child!


 
someday there will be others, and thier could be others in the clss that have complained without your knowing who have been there a long time...?
just a possibility....
also, I assumed you we an adult by your manner of experssion, a younger one but I do not feel it is all that relevant to the issue... I would not dismiss your feelings based on your age... lots of mature teens and immature grandparents out there!  



			
				SAVAGE said:
			
		

> As for prayer in class...well what about the martial artists who pray and make signs of crosses before tournament fights or competition...surely by the same token this is not right as well..as they should be concentrating on emptying there mind before the battle!



before personal competition is a different time (and you know it).  although I feel you are totally right (and in the strictest sense believe they should view the opponent as not seperate from themselves so there is not victory or loss) this sense of combat takes years to impart to students... many need the ego to drive the accuisition of skills that later will allow them to abandon the ego.... also, many are weak and wounded and need any assurance they can get of thier own saftey and willpower to enter any kind of fight.  as an instructor teaching a very traditional concept... there is a time and place and I would work with the student one on one before and after comps in the future to help them "get the right mindset"...  in terms of schools and comps.. some will always allow prayer.. even have team prayer... to which I say "different strokes for different folks"....

*deep breath*


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## Phoenix44

I personally don't see why you shouldn't be able to cross yourself if that's what you feel comfortable doing.  It's YOUR meditation.  I would discuss your feelings with the teacher.


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## IcemanSK

Savage:

While I only know you through your writtings on a few boards, I know you to be honest & genuine. As you've pointed out, many professional atheletes (who aren't even Catholic) cross themselves openly before competition. In the USA & a lot of other places, boxers hear the bell & they cross themselves. 

My question (that I think you're wondering also) is why are your higher ranks upset about it? I know how long you've studied & how important training is to you. Why do they care if you use the meditation time for prayer? 

Does this bother you to the point of wondering if you want to continue training with these people? Can you pray without crossing yourself? (I imagine it would be hard to not do something you do by reflex such as that). For me, it would be hard to continue training with these folks. I'm not telling you what I think you ought to do, I'm just sharing my view. 

I will pray for you that this will be resolved in a way that helps to continue to both train & pray as you see fit.


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## Phoenix44

It occurs to me that maybe the instructor feels that the meditation period has absolutely nothing to do with religion or prayer, but is just time to calm your mind.  That's not "Christian disrespect," by the way, any more that what you feel is "Buddhist disrespect."  It may simply be that this meditation period is not for the purpose of *any* religion.

I had two Roman Catholic students confide that bowing in the beginning of class made them uncomfortable.  I told them not to do anything that made them feel it violated their religion.  On the other hand, they didn't feel the need to spend the time praying, either.


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## TheBattousai

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I respect that..but I am neither overzealous....or fanatical about my belief...I do feel that I am doing bhuddist things


 
I have to make one comment on this. Meditaion is mentioned in the bible by King David in Psalm 46:10; Be still, and know that I am God. In the way I was taught to meditate, the idea of it was that when you said things to God threw prayer, you did all the talking. In meditation, you empty your mind and wait for an answer. You can get an answer from prayers by not letting him give it to you. Also if the instructor has a problem with crossing your chest, then bring up menkyo buddhism, were they practice various hand symbols for clearing there mind and concentration; simular aspects in  thinking between the two.


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## Jagermeister

Kacey said:
			
		

> A reasonable compromise may be that you think about whatever you like, but avoid gestures that may be distracting, or possibly disturbing, to other people. In addition, if this is a private facility rather than a public one, then the owner/operator/instructor has the legal right to ask you to desist, at least in the US - whether or not he has the moral right is an argument for a different thread.



Very good point here.  When it comes down to it, he makes the rules.  And if you respect him, do your prayer and wait until later to do the cross thing, if it's really that necessary.  I like Andrew Green's analogy regarding following the customs of another culture/religion - kind of like the "when in Rome" sort of thing.

To summarize: don't make a big deal of it - he's not trying to disrespect your religion.


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## Akashiro Tamaya

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety!
> 
> A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect
> 
> I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!
> 
> *bows respectfully*


 
If I come to your house for dinner and everyone in your household does a meal time prayer/ grace.  I would participate in doing so to show respect to you and your family.  But if you come to my house and start doing that christian stuff at my dinner table,  you will be having dinner with my dog outside my house for sure.


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## aplonis

Are there any fundamental (pun intended) differences between praying to Yaweh on the one and, and say...Baal...on the other? If there are then it is similarly possible that an equally fundamental difference lay between cerebral and spiritual practices of meditation. 

Buddha studied meditation under Hindu masters before he became "The Buddha". Each of those teacher taught a different technique. Just so, meditation, purely in and of itself...is only a "technique". You clearly misunderstand the process if you insist on feeling that to meditate in am MA environment is "praying to Buddha".

We Buddhists likewise have many different varieties of meditation. The very most basic sort is not really even "Buddhist" at all. I have even read where a group of Jesuits undertook the practice. I refer to a simple training of purely mental (aka secular) discipline. To take a particular object of focus and keep it foremost in one's awareness without ever drifting away. Usually this object of focus is "the breath". Why the breath? Because you always have it with you and it is always in the here-and-now.

So the sort of meditation generally taught in MA schools is not at all what is taught at Buddhist meditation centers. In MA schools goal is to set aside non-training-related concerns along with all other distractions whatever...to set one's focus upon developing and maintaining a proper attitude conducive to training. It is by no means praying to Buddha.

Do your praying outside of MA class just as I, a Buddhist, persue my own non-MA-related spiritual exercises outside of MA class. When either of us do otherwise we work to upset the group dynamic doing ourselves and everybody else a disfavor.


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## Sarah

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I am the only white belt...yellow belt since yesterday...


 
Congrates on your promotion!


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## Fallen Ninja

Many have already posted some great thoughts... so I thought I would throw my in the pot too.

Meditation for me was one of those things that I had a problem with too, when I first started. The thought of kneeling in front of the Kamiza made me wonder what in the world I was doing?!

Now when I sit in front I start to go over things that I learned throughout the class. In the Bujinkan we work a lot on feeling. A certain feeling that you had that night or whatever new ideas came to mind. Then I sit there after I pass over that onto what this art means to me. The ones that sacrificed so much so that I could be a part of something I don't deserve to know. The battles that were fought using the same techniques and movement that I am learning in a class that should not be offered to someone like me.

So maybe you should not try and pray and use prayer for your own devotional time and maybe concentrate on what is being offered to you and what you are getting out of it.

As a Christian it is good to pray and you need to, but sometimes you must explore other parts of yourself and not confuse the two.

:ninja:


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## BrandiJo

i would think itd be ok to pray, but when we medatate its to clear our minds of everything not to talk or worship a certain god/God  i supose its up to the school how its handled but i see no disrepsect in praying


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## SAVAGE

Paul B said:
			
		

> Seriously? 20? How long is a class?


 
Ok my week goes like this:

Mon 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
       6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Tues 5:00-6:00- Boxing
        6:00-6:30- Weights!

Wed 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
       6:45-8:00- Hapkido

Thur 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu

Friday- 5:00-6:00- Boxing
        6:00-6:30- Weights

Saturday- 2:00-6:00- Judo!
               6:00-6:30- Weights

Sunday- Rest!


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## Sarah

Wow...hope you dont get burnt out with that schedule!



			
				SAVAGE said:
			
		

> Ok my week goes like this:
> 
> Mon 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
> 6:45-8:00- Hapkido
> 
> Tues 5:00-6:00- Boxing
> 6:00-6:30- Weights!
> 
> Wed 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
> 6:45-8:00- Hapkido
> 
> Thur 4:30-6:30- Goju Ryu
> 
> Friday- 5:00-6:00- Boxing
> 6:00-6:30- Weights
> 
> Saturday- 2:00-6:00- Judo!
> 6:00-6:30- Weights
> 
> Sunday- Rest!


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## SAVAGE

I aolologise to the board for this double post....my mentioning bhudda was a mistake..I cant find the edit post button!

I did not say that sensei had the problem...but a senior member of the federation...I did some asking around... had a few conversations, with a few other people...the man in question is part of the federation...not a karateka...never stepped on the mat in his life..but is like a parent....his problem is with catholics...because his religious affiliation are pope bashers...I have approached sensei and he says it is alright...and that it is right to give god the nod every time we feel like he needs one! 

As for making the sign of the cross...well if you were catholic..it is all muscle memory...I dont think many of us make the conscious effort to make the sign...more like we bow our heads to pray and up it comes like a instinctive strike..or..block! Well that is what it is like for me! 

I make no move to ever force my religion on anyone...Jesus never did that...my wife and I are of two seperate religions I a catholic..she a Jehovahs Witness...My son is to be raised a catholic (that is more a Fijian Culture thing than a religious thing..i.e you are what your father is), but I go to Jehovahs Witness meetings...and I sit there while everyone tries to convert me...I have never asked my wife to join me for mass...but she started coming without my saying a word! I suppose it is because I am the most religious of the two of us..and by my example of trying (I do emphasise trying) to lead a good christian life...if by this people come to know God in whatever form..or whatever denomination..I cannot apologise for it..but i do not go preaching at people..about hell and damnation and that my path is the only path..and if you are not with me you will burn for eternity!

This man is just trying to make himself important by imposing rules in the Dojo...well that is what sensei said anyway..I have senseis OK...so I am just going to go on doing what I do! 

*bows respectfully*


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## Sarah

Am glad things have worked out for you


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## SAVAGE

Sarah,

Thank you for your congrats...also ideally that is what my week is like....but with work and family sometimes they just slip by...but I am carefull to rest alot and eat heaps of fresh fruits and vegetables..and if my body just doesnt want to train...I dont...pushing your self is one thing....trying to kill yourself is another!

I am just glad that my MA and religion are things that I dont need to seperate!


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## Paul B

I am also glad that things worked out. Good for you!

I have to say that's one heck of a schedule! I think you have a great attitude,though..and that is half the battle. Keep it up.:asian:


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## SAVAGE

Paul,

thank you as well, my grandfather (the reason I started boxing...he was a fanatic....that lead to my discovery of MA), used to say:

Your Attitude in life, determines your alltitude in life!

A good rule to live by IMHO!


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## Sarah

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> Your Attitude in life, determines your alltitude in life!


 
I like it


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## SAVAGE

Sarah said:
			
		

> I like it


 
It is kinda catchy!


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## Marginal

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect
> 
> I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!


 
In general, the point of pre class meditation isn't to pray to Bhudda, your ancestors, God etc. It's more of a clear your mind so that you can focus on the pending lesson. 

Regardless, I don't go to a church and demand they change their rules and traditions to suit my interpretation of their practices. That would be rude. I don't know why it's supposed to be ok the other way around.


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## jcraigking

Paul B said:
			
		

> OK..this got me. Was there ever anything mentioned about Mokuso being a "prayer" to Bhuddha? If so..it's time to run.
> 
> Second..mokuso/mokkyung..it's a time to clear the mind and concentrate on what is at hand.


 
One problem you will have a hard time getting past is different uses of the term "meditation" in the two traditions being discussed. In the Catholic Tradition, meditation is a form of prayer. We meditate on the attributes of God as a way of growing in intimate union with Him. While we do clear our minds of the distractions of the day before we pray, we do not "empty" ourselves. From the Catholic, or most other Christian traditions, understanding of the spiritual world an act of emptying ones spirit opens it to other spiritual influences (ie the demonic). THis is one of the objections that some (more fundamentalist) Christian groups have forbidden martial arts. 

I am not asking for wether anyone agrees or disagrees, just trying to shed light on the difference of understanding of what meditation is. 

I'd also note to the origional post that while we are accustomed to beginning and ending our prayer with the Sign of the Cross, there is no reason that we have to. If doing so is to cause disruption or scandal you'd be better to omit it, but still silently pray.  


Craig

BTW: I have a BA in Catholic Theology, am working on my MA, and am a Parish Coordinator of Faith Formation. You could say I am like a Blackbelt in Theology, but I usually just tell people I'm a "Theology Geek." One thing I have been throwing around is putting together a short booklet of principles used in MA (harmony, self defense, balance...) and showing where these principles are found in the Catholic Tradition. I have had more a number of Catholics and other Christians who asked me questions about how to reconcile philosophies found in MA with our faith. If I get around to it I will post it here. That could be a resolution for me this year


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## CuongNhuka

If the senoir is not the head of school I would talk to him/her (other student). And then (while being very polite and repectful) him/her to explane how it is disrepectful, and try to compermize. But if that fails I would try to talk to the head of school, explain what has happened, and ask for his/her advice. If you cann't find a good comprise, either comply with the rules or consider leaving. 
I'm sure the student has a good reason (or at least good intent). I don't mean to be rude, but if you cann't comprimise and would like to continue to pray before and after class it might not be a good idea to stay. Most Coung Nhu schools would probably let you do that. 
Or maybe you could try to meditate with the class, but pray on your own before and after. Say at home? Just some ideas, hope it helps.

Sweet Brighit Bless your Blade, 

John (old Celtic prayer for those who fight and study martial arts)


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## aplonis

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I aolologise to the board for this double post....my mentioning bhudda was a mistake..I cant find the edit post button!
> 
> [...]
> 
> This man is just trying to make himself important by imposing rules in the Dojo...well that is what sensei said anyway..I have senseis OK...so I am just going to go on doing what I do!


 
No offense taken here... Just think of MA meditation as a fixed format, self-administered, formalized, attitude adjustment. In its most basic form, that's all it is. When we Buddhists do in our own particular way all we are doing is electing a very particular attitude and adjusting in accordance with that. In MA schools, the elective "attitude" is one appropriate to those environs.

As for control freaks...be glad it is not the GM himself (or the instructor's own interpretation of the GM's putative rules). One class I belonged to for most of a year put forward quite a different picture of acceptable rules for personal responsibility that I could endure it no more and withdrew. It may have very well been authentic...13th century Samurai authentic. In any case, I did not fit there...nor any modern person at all...I rather doubt.

In another class under the same Shidoshi all the students would make formal bows to a Buddhist shrine at the beginning of every class...and not a single one of them (except me) sincere in doing so. That was equally upsetting from a Buddhist point of view. They were being trained to ignore the lofty symbolism and supplant something else in its stead. They were being immunized against the symbology by that practice. From a Buddhist standpoint they were being robbed of the power latent in those symbols by making wholly empty obeisance. Equally wrong, is it not? Better to walk by and not see than to bow and not feel.


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## SAVAGE

aplonis said:
			
		

> No offense taken here... Just think of MA meditation as a fixed format, self-administered, formalized, attitude adjustment. In its most basic form, that's all it is. When we Buddhists do in our own particular way all we are doing is electing a very particular attitude and adjusting in accordance with that. In MA schools, the elective "attitude" is one appropriate to those environs.
> 
> As for control freaks...be glad it is not the GM himself (or the instructor's own interpretation of the GM's putative rules). One class I belonged to for most of a year put forward quite a different picture of acceptable rules for personal responsibility that I could endure it no more and withdrew. It may have very well been authentic...13th century Samurai authentic. In any case, I did not fit there...nor any modern person at all...I rather doubt.
> 
> In another class under the same Shidoshi all the students would make formal bows to a Buddhist shrine at the beginning of every class...and not a single one of them (except me) sincere in doing so. That was equally upsetting from a Buddhist point of view. They were being trained to ignore the lofty symbolism and supplant something else in its stead. They were being immunized against the symbology by that practice. From a Buddhist standpoint they were being robbed of the power latent in those symbols by making wholly empty obeisance. Equally wrong, is it not? Better to walk by and not see than to bow and not feel.


 
I never thought of it that way...an excellent post!


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## Carol

My faith is a very personal part of me, but still a part of me.  My art is a part of me.   I could not shelve my faith upon entering a dojo any more than I could shelve my art upon entering a gurdwara.

Quiet praying during longer times of meditation helps me focus, too.  Glad to hear that things worked out well.


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## bcbernam777

The possibility may exist that this particular Senior has a problem with Christianity full stop. Seek clarification with him, and discuss why this is such a problem, As a MA teacher I know respect cuts both ways. My Sifu who is Buddhist and old school, knows that I am a Christian as well as another class mate and he respects this, he tells us that he knows that myself and this class mate can spar together because of our religious beliefs leave us free of ego. He knows that the christian aspect adds to benefit our training, he therefore embraces it. If your senior cannot embrace that and respect the fact that you hold certain beliefs, then I see it as his problem, not yours, as for distracting people with the sighn of the cross, if they are distracted by this then they have problems focusing anyway, as performing the sighn of the cross is not really all that noticible if one is hunched over. I would still say that if that is his Dojo, you still need to respect that, if you want to continue to train there. Dont sweat it, go talk to him


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## Josh

There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son.


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## Xue Sheng

Josh said:
			
		

> There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son.


 
I probably shouldnt say this, but there is so much wrong with that statement.

As for making the sign of the cross in class, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.


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## Ping898

I am wondering what causes Christians to take more offense at these aspects (bowing/meditation) of MA than it seems that other religious practitioners do?  It is often I hear things along the line that a Christian won't do some aspect of the training more than I ever hear from other non-Christians.  If it was purely a religious thing I would expect the atheists or agnonstics to be complaining all the time.

I ask cause I am a practicing Catholic, I have a very strong faith that is an ingrained part of me and has been since I was a small child.  I am confirmed and was at one point a Eucharistic Minister, I went to a Catholic HS by choice, and my uncle is a brother and priest so I have easy access to answers to all my theology questions, but it has never occured to me that in MA bowing or meditating was anyway something meant to be religious.  I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.  

So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?  

Is it the way the acts are presented from the instructor or are some faiths more likely to cause its people to be more likely to jump to that conclusion?


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## dobermann

i dont want to be disrespectful of any religions. my beliefs are being referred to as satanistic. i claim that god lies in each and everyone of us. actually we all are god in that sense.

why is it that people that are so fanatic about their beliefs and them not wanting to interfere with other religions. would that be so bad? it would only stop about half the wars going on right now..


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## IcemanSK

Ping898 said:
			
		

> I am wondering what causes Christians to take more offense at these aspects (bowing/meditation) of MA than it seems that other religious practitioners do? It is often I hear things along the line that a Christian won't do some aspect of the training more than I ever hear from other non-Christians. If it was purely a religious thing I would expect the atheists or agnonstics to be complaining all the time.
> 
> I ask cause I am a practicing Catholic, I have a very strong faith that is an ingrained part of me and has been since I was a small child. I am confirmed and was at one point a Eucharistic Minister, I went to a Catholic HS by choice, and my uncle is a brother and priest so I have easy access to answers to all my theology questions, but it has never occured to me that in MA bowing or meditating was anyway something meant to be religious. I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.
> 
> So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?
> 
> Is it the way the acts are presented from the instructor or are some faiths more likely to cause its people to be more likely to jump to that conclusion?


 
I think it has to do with folks not understanding the context of what bowing means in Asian culture. They equate it with the idea of not bowing to idols in the Old Testament. Bowing isn't a part of American culture. So, if you understand only what the Bible says not to do without understanding the Asian cultural idea of bowing....there's your easy jump.


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## Xue Sheng

Ping898 said:
			
		

> I always saw bowing as a sign of respect and the meditating as a time of reflection.


 
That is exactly what it is, a sign of respect and a time of reflection or in some cases development of ki, Qi or Chi (whichever fits your MA). I will have to look for something I once read on this topic that made sense, but basically The religions of the country that martial arts comes from are Taoist, Buddhist, Shinto. However those, or at least Taoist and Buddhist started as philosophies, NOT, religion. And although many Samurai practiced Shinto that does not mean that their martial art preached Shinto. Somewhere along the line the Martial Arts, the Philosophy and the religion they became got mixed up.

What is amazing about this post is that the problem is usually reversed. People of western religions are put off by a perceived eastern religion within the martial arts. The fact that the sign of the cross is an issue amazes me. 

Currently many martial artists from China or Japan do not even mention religion, only respect.


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## Kacey

Josh said:
			
		

> _There is no Religion, only Jesus Christ God's Son._



 Um... being that, like over half the planet, I don't ascribe to this belief, I would ask that you qualify such statements by referring only to yourself.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> I probably shouldnt say this, but there is so much wrong with that statement.



While I disagree with the statement, I see nothing wrong with Josh choosing to make it, nor do I consider it "wrong" - simply different.



			
				Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> As for making the sign of the cross in class, I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.



By contrast, I do see a problem with making the sign of the cross in class if someone else present objects to it.  If the focus of the class is not religious, then outward symbols of religion should stay outside if someone objects - but if so, it should be enforced equally; e.g. if this student cannot make the sign of the cross, then no other gestures representative of religious beliefs should be allowed (unless the class is focused on one religion, as in the thread http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30192 on Christian Martial Arts schools, in which case all students should be made aware of the class's orientation when signing up).  

Being Jewish, I have had problems with religion in a variety of settings, including being told (by a school principal at a school where I was working as a substitute) that I couldn't wear my Star of David necklace because of it's religious significance and the possibility that a child or parent might object... by a woman wearing a cross 5 times the size of my star.  So perhaps I'm more sensitive to the chance that someone might be offended than other people might be.  Also, I've spent years trying to find the balance between explaining to coworkers and middle school students why I'm taking a day off for a particular religious holiday that they don't share and getting nasty calls and/or letters from parents who think I'm proselytizing - so I mostly avoid the topic unless someone asks me, and then I'm happy to discuss it.


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## Akashiro Tamaya

All I can say is that I ain't got nothing against Jesus Christ !  Its his fans I can't stand !


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## Cujo

Just my 2 cents. I also am a Roman Catholic. For me, being Roman Catholic is not something that I "do", but something that I "am", right to the core of my being. I would never disrespect anothers faith system or beliefs, but I will not hide my own either. If it is not acceptable to make the sign of the cross in the school, thats fine as it is his school. However, I would then seek out a school where such a gesture would not be seen as offensive or disruptive.

Pax Christi
Cujo


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## Xue Sheng

Kacey said:
			
		

> [/i]
> While I disagree with the statement, I see nothing wrong with Josh choosing to make it, nor do I consider it "wrong" - simply different.


 
Kacey

Let me clarify my statement. I was not making light of any religion nor anyones right to any religious beliefs, views, or practice. As I stated, "I probably shouldn't say this" and I probably shouldnt say this either but, my reference was to the statement, by definition.

It is a contradictory statement, saying there is no religion and using religious icons, as an example, to prove that point. 

I meant no disrespect and I apologize if I offended you or Josh.


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## Kacey

Xue Sheng said:
			
		

> Kacey
> 
> Let me clarify my statement. I was not making light of any religion nor anyones right to any religious beliefs, views, or practice. As I stated, "I probably shouldn't say this" and I probably shouldnt say this either but, my reference was to the statement, by definition.
> 
> It is a contradictory statement, saying there is no religion and using religious icons, as an example, to prove that point.
> 
> I meant no disrespect and I apologize if I offended you or Josh.



Thank you for the clarification and the apology - both are appreciated, and both demonstrate a strong moral center - no matter what source it comes from.


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## Marginal

Ping898 said:
			
		

> So what causes the jump from respect/reflection to worship of an idol or time to pray to Buddha if the instructor does not specifically teach religion with his/her MA instruction?


I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.


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## dobermann

Marginal said:
			
		

> I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.


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## SAVAGE

Akashiro Tamaya said:
			
		

> All I can say is that I ain't got nothing against Jesus Christ ! Its his fans I can't stand !


 
ROFL This is pure comedy gold!

:asian:


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## heretic888

Marginal said:
			
		

> I think it usually has more to do with people assuming God's running a high school clique.


 
:asian: :asian: :asian:


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## DeLamar.J

SAVAGE said:
			
		

> I am a Roman Catholic...well when we have times of meditation...I feel as if I am praying to a bhudda...so I get caught saying prayers when the class is meditating..in the times when you must reflect on the things you have learned..."MOKOSOI" I think its called in karate. I just say a quick thank you to God that we had a good session and that no one was hurt..and if someone was that he wasnt hurt to bad..and to ask him to help me absorb all I learnt that day! I also begin my session with a quick prayer..for everyones safety!
> 
> A senior member of the Federation pointed it out, he said that it was disrespectfull to make the sign of the cross while meditating...I dont see that I am doing anything wrong...In all other factors i am one of the best students, not in terms of I can kick butt....but I make it my point to observe ettiquette...I never talk unless we are asked if we have questions...i will attempt everything the masters say without complaint and i suck it up as much as I can...except for the days when they want to work you into the ground! I know what it means to stand before a master and the things that need to be done to show respect
> 
> I was interested in your take on this disrespect because I take the time to pray during meditation!
> 
> *bows respectfully*


You have freedom of religion. Everyone has the right to pray how they want to IMO. I am a LaVeyan Satanist, and I have no problem holding hands with my grandma and blessing our meal. I think people need to back off and allow a person freedom of religion. However, if you are in a situation where you might offend someone, just try to say it in your head. People get a little crazy when it comes to religion, and its best to avoid those types of situations if possible. Its just not worth it.
I have no problem going to Christain church, I love to learn new things. But I'm not going to bust out a HAIL SATAN in the middle of prayer (LOL). Just be aware of who you are around. If your around reasonable people who dont mind you being open about certain things and not judge, then its all good. But those types seem rare to me. 
Also I would like to leave a good quote, Im not sure whos it is but I think you will find it useful......  

Those who matter dont mind, and those who mind dont matter.


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## Carol

DeLamar.J said:
			
		

> I am a LaVeyan Satanist, and I have no problem holding hands with my grandma and blessing our meal. I think people need to back off and allow a person freedom of religion. However, if you are in a situation where you might offend someone, just try to say it in your head. People get a little crazy when it comes to religion, and its best to avoid those types of situations if possible. Its just not worth it.
> I have no problem going to Christain church, I love to learn new things. But I'm not going to bust out a HAIL SATAN in the middle of prayer (LOL).


 
LOL!  Very, very, very well said.

The key is tolerance.  Try to be tolerant of others sensitivities, encourage them to be tolerant of yours.  

I'm Sikh, and my faith is not that well known in the States.  I will sometimes slip in and out of meditation (the religious kind) in class, especially if I'm in pain or if I'm trying to focus my thoughts.  

While I don't think EPAK is an art with pronounced spiritual roots, MA is a very spiritual experience for me.  I'm learning how to reduce my ego more, how to better appreciate and respect those with differrent or unfamiliar abilities.  I'm learning how deeply I can trust and respect someone when sparring with a BB trying to toughen me up. 

Savage, I can certainly understand how you are moved to genuflect and pray, for I am also moved to praise the Almighty in my own way during class.  Our faith is part of who we are, but it is also an intimate part of who we are.  Guard it wisely.


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## bushidomartialarts

first, i disagree with your teacher's reasoning but not necessarily his stance.

i see no disrespect in making the sign of the cross as you finish your prayer.  

on the other hand, meditation is not a prayer to buddha.  well, not the sort of meditation you're being asked to participate in.  meditation is simply a clearing of the mind and a readying of yourself for what is to come.

if you're uncomfortable with the idea of meditation, i would submit that meditation is quite common in christianity, especially catholocism.  the rosary, labrynth prayers and the our fathers/hail marys said after confession can also be meditation.  prayer vigils are often meditation.  in many cases, the meditation is more similar to the 'mantra' associated with yoga practice than the zazen common to martial arts practice.  

i'm impressed that you take your faith seriously enough to guard against inimical influences.  imo, you are limiting yourself and impeding your development as a martial artist by not allowing yourself to experience meditation.  perhaps you could speak with some of your advisors in the church about this and see what they suggest.


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