# WT dropouts



## yak sao (Apr 12, 2011)

So many people have left LT/KK over the years. They rule with such a heavy hand they do it to themselves.
Of those who have left their organization and set out on their own, who do you feel left with the biggest piece of the pie?


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## geezer (Apr 12, 2011)

Good question. I don't even know who half the guys are... _WT rebels_ we used to call them, before I ended up training under one. In this country (USA) Emin is a great fighter, but he ain't cheap or easy to train with, always on tour like a rockstar. Also, I never got the sense that he worried too much about the traditional stuff... the advanced forms, weapons sets and such. He seems more focused on the practical, from what I hear. That and making a bundle on seminars all over the world.

Who else is there? Allan Fong? I met him once over twenty years ago. Seemed like a good guy, and  he reached Master level, but I don't know if he got the whole WT system or not. LT dished the stuff out with an eye-dropper... and charged an incredible amount for the upper level stuff.

The guy I train under now, NVTO Sifu Jeff Webb is technically superb. And he's plenty tough too, but at about 5'6" he'll never be a fighting monster like Emin or Victor Gutierrez. That's fine with me. I can't keep up with what he's teaching me as it is... especially since my local training partner just moved to California. Right now I'm really hurting for a good training partner! So I'm doing a lot of conditioning and basics with a few lower ranking students. 

What about the rest of you WT refugees. What's your experience?


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## yak sao (Apr 12, 2011)

As you know, I trained under Emin for 10 years and you're right, he was mostly all about the practical side of it. I did learn up through BT with him but his big forte' was always the fighting aspect. I've heard through the grapevine that he got the knives before the split by going behind KK's back and learning directly from LT. Rumor? who knows? He is more into the Escrima side of weapons anyway.

Si-Fu Allan Fong told me he learned the knives from LT before he moved here in the 80's from HK. He paid for it by working with LT to help him edit the book _Wing Tsun Kuen_. Si-Fu Fong is very much into the traditional aspects of WT and very detail oriented.
Between the 2 of them I have had very much a yin-yang view to my training.


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## Svemocn1vidar (Apr 13, 2011)

This curse is spreading as far as i know. Many have left LT/KK,and now,many left Emin as well. My info says that he lost couple of schools in Hungary,our own in Serbia ( he practically banned us as we couldnt pay what Master asked for ),plus,his most important student from Turkey/Istanbul left as well. The reasons are always the same. High prices,way too expensive for no particular reason.
Indeed as Yak Sao said,Master Emin is somewhat a "rockstar" ,travelling around,touring,collect money. Same thing for those that trained him KK/LT. The reason he left was money they asked him to pay,and now he's doing the same thing to his student. It's like a sickness that you inherit or something..

And Master Emin did finish his WT with Leung Ting,that's what i heard as well. KK refused to teach him the whole system.


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## chain punch (Apr 13, 2011)

I guess the problem is supply and demand. If people are still daft enough to pay the high prices then LT/KK et al will continue to charge silly prices. For them it is no longer about student or self development and improvement but building a financial legacy. Perhaps you are all right that chasing the pound with such drive is a disease. Shame as I heard very good things recently regarding the high level of skill possessed by KK.


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## geezer (Apr 13, 2011)

Famous Chinese wisdom directly from the mouth of LT explaining why we should pay his incredibly high fees. _"I cheat you once, so you can cheat others a thousand times"._ In other words, we over-paid him and then were expected to overcharge our own students as many times as we could!!! True story. LOL.

Unfortunately I am what LT calls _"One of those idiots..."_ who only asks what my students can afford. So I could not continue my training with him. But I always will respect his skill in WT.


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## Eric_H (Apr 13, 2011)

There was that italian guy Sergio who was under LT, then Chi Sim (hoffman) then different Chi Sim (some guy in HK) now i think he's in that Black Flag group...

Heard he actually has a bunch of schools.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 14, 2011)

After reading all of this cheating this and charging too much money for that, it's no wonder Wing Chun's name and reputation is looked upon with nothing but distrust.  After hearing about their greed by LT, his followers, and those who have left him continueing the practice, why would anyone want to join their Wing Chun ranks?  I'm sure there are a couple of others doing the same, but to me, you're just shooting yourself in the foot being that way.

As martial artists, I thought we were supposed to be helping and improving people's way of life (and ours) by our instruction and teaching and not ripping them off to satisfy our own greed.  We should be giving more to the people we teach (instruction and quality of life), than what we get in return (money).  I hope the people talked about in this thread are more of the excepton than the rule.  I know my Sifu is not like that and glad I found him so many years ago.


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## yak sao (Apr 14, 2011)

Here is my problem with WT.
Not the quality. The quality of instruction and the material being taught is quite good.
Not the expense. And yes it is very expensive. But if the market can bear the price there is always going to be someone willing to pay. Besides, it is my understanding that WC was always expensive because the sifu had less disciples and so had to charge more money to make a living.
My problem with WT is the unrealistic waiting periods to learn advanced material. There are people who have been going at this for decades and have yet to learn the entire system.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2011)

OK I am not sure who LT and KK are but after reading this I was apparently rather lucky.

My sifu does not charge much, is a student of Ip Ching and as far as I can tell very good at Wing Chun.


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## wtxs (Apr 14, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Here is my problem with WT.
> Not the quality. The quality of instruction and the material being taught is quite good.
> Not the expense. And yes it is very expensive. But if the market can bear the price there is always going to be someone willing to pay. Besides, it is my understanding that WC was always expensive because the sifu had less disciples and so had to charge more money to make a living.
> *My problem with WT is the unrealistic waiting periods to learn advanced material. There are people who have been going at this for decades and have yet to learn the entire system.*



I feel your pain my fellow WC brother, this greed monster spans the history of mankind and showing no sign of slowing down.

Truism ... buyer be aware.


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## zepedawingchun (Apr 14, 2011)

Xue Sheng said:


> OK I am not sure who LT and KK are but after reading this I was apparently rather lucky.
> 
> My sifu does not charge much, is a student of Ip Ching and as far as I can tell very good at Wing Chun.


 
LT = Leung Ting

KK = Keith Kernspecht (not sure it's spelled right)


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> LT = Leung Ting
> 
> KK = Keith Kernspecht (not sure it's spelled right)


 

Cool

Now all this talk about Leung Ting, Keith R. Kernspecht and Emin Boztepe makes sense

Thanks


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## yak sao (Apr 14, 2011)

Sorry, wasn't trying to be vague. Just a lousy typist....and I wasn't sure how to spell Kernsphect either


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## geezer (Apr 14, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> After hearing about their greed by LT, his followers, and those who have left him continueing the practice, why would anyone want to join their Wing Chun ranks?


 
Honestly, I've never met KK or most of the EWTO "rebels" who split away from him. As to why I followed LT? I was young and impressionable when I first met him in 1980. And I still believe he has very high level kung fu. As to why I continue studying in the same kind of WC, but outside of his WT organization... well I've found a teacher from the same lineage who is both a skilled practitioner and generous with his instruction. Not inexpensive, but honest and fair. 

Incidently, my current instructor has very positive things to say about KK. He feels that what KK taught him was worth every penny and more.


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## Xue Sheng (Apr 14, 2011)

yak sao said:


> Sorry, wasn't trying to be vague. Just a lousy typist....and I wasn't sure how to spell Kernsphect either


 
No worries I didn't think you were trying to be vague, your post cleared it all up for me, thanks


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## chain punch (Apr 17, 2011)

Any one on here trained with KK?  A training partner of mine's instructor trained with him several years back and said his skill was very impressive.  So much so he had been given the moniker 'Ghost' in relation to attacking air and his high levels of sensitivity.


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## Padawan.U.K (Sep 2, 2011)

I train WT and am enjoying it at the moment, class prices are reasonable but i find £30 for grading to be a bit steep. My regional instructor, who does all the gradings, has crossed hands with K.K and he did indeed use the term"ghost" when describing him, I was also told that he had remarkable hip movements for a guy of his age, or any for that matter.


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 11, 2011)

Hurting for a real training partner is right...I simply gave up for a couple of years.It seems the only people I could find were the ones who had their own agenda.The last two fellas had severe back injuries,so I just stopped.now I'm trying to get with it after a bout with depression,It's hard to give up the things that are you.I gave up surfing after our group fell apart,biking after my buddy took up sailing.So now I'm trying to come up for air and reignite my passion for Wing Tzun.I hate training alone,bores the hell out of me.Hopefully the up and coming seminar will give me the fire I need.Pardon me if I posted in the wrong place.....This was in response to finding a training partner.


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## altbus1 (Sep 11, 2011)

I think I'm one of the lucky guy's who have found a teacher that isn't to expensife. He also left his organisation because of the fee's he had to pay when opening a school. Therefore I think he doesn't mention the organisation he was with.
Also I like his traditional style so for now I'm having the time of my life...


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## geezer (Sep 11, 2011)

qwksilver61 said:


> Hurting for a real training partner is right...I simply gave up for a couple of years...



I wondered where you'd been lately QS. For what it's worth, I'm still fighting the same battle. Ever since my training partner split for Cali last Spring, I've been totally on my own. There were a couple of his students around for a while, even one Primary Level... but you know how it is. Their loyalty was really to their Sifu, not to me, the old Si-Pak. So when life got busy, they were gone. Now I do manage to keep a couple of lower level students of my own. But  they come and go. None so far have ever stuck it out long enough to train anything like the upper level Chi-sau sections and such. So I'm just forgetting all that stuff. Seems like a shame. On the other hand they do keep me working on my basics... and that's very important. Just thought you should know you aren't alone.


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 13, 2011)

In my honest opinion,I believe peoples attention span is much shorter than ever,Why? Just sit down with your friends and watch a new film,then watch a old film containing all the elements of surprise and suspense,unless everything happens instantaneously they will bored out of their skulls.*Most* people want instant proof,and instant results and nothing too mundane or repetitious.Sad no one really wants to *get* skill,and more like "Fast-foo" I pity the Foo!:soapbox: thanks for understanding? BTW..was that you training in Austin with Sifu Jeff Webb,if so congrats,I am jealous...


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## swivel63 (Sep 15, 2011)

my instructors (father/son) left WT and joined up with klaus brand. who also left WT from what i gather.  i've seen some pics (my teacher and his son) with some of the guys mentioned in this thread.  most of klaus brands instructors are ex-WT guys, too. not sure how far he himself got, though. i'm a n00b, but it's fun so far.


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## geezer (Sep 15, 2011)

qwksilver61 said:


> BTW..was that you training in Austin with Sifu Jeff Webb,if so congrats,I am jealous...



Not sure where you were looking. If you go to the NVTO website (see my signature) and look under "NVTO in the news" for the pics of the "2011 summer camp", I'm the blondish guy in the black tank-top next to Master Jeff. Yes, I still have my hair for now. At 56, everything else seems to be going to pot though!

BTW, dont be "jealous".... but _do_ attend one of Jeff's camps. I thoroughly enjoyed the last one!


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## qwksilver61 (Sep 24, 2011)

you still look like *that guy* in "Dynamic Wing Tsun!" Question, what is the story behind Sifu Robert Jacquet? What happened to Keith Sonnenberg?BTW Don't Fret,I get my rice crispies every morning when In get out of bed (joints popping),and yes,no matter how much it hurts it is mind over matter.


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## geezer (Sep 25, 2011)

qwksilver61 said:


> you still look like *that guy* in "Dynamic Wing Tsun!" Question, what is the story behind Sifu Robert Jacquet? What happened to Keith Sonnenberg?BTW Don't Fret,I get my rice crispies every morning when In get out of bed (joints popping),and yes,no matter how much it hurts it is mind over matter.



Robert was my training partner here until he moved to California last June. Keith lives on the other side of town. He's still active, but he stayed with LT's WT organization, so he can't even talk to me anymore. Too bad. We were friends for a long time. There's another guy Neil, who also lives far away from me who originally started WT with Robert, but then switched to EBMAS and teaches privately. And then there's Phil Bradley somewhere around here, selling online training (!), and Don Gross down in Tucson. They both started in WT under Robert before moving on. So actually, there are a handful of ex-WT people in the area, except they are kept apart by politics and ego. It's a shame. I'll train with anybody if I can get the time.


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 1, 2011)

zepedawingchun said:


> After reading all of this cheating this and charging too much money for that, it's no wonder Wing Chun's name and reputation is looked upon with nothing but distrust. After hearing about their greed by LT, his followers, and those who have left him continueing the practice, why would anyone want to join their Wing Chun ranks? I'm sure there are a couple of others doing the same, but to me, you're just shooting yourself in the foot being that way.
> 
> As martial artists, I thought we were supposed to be helping and improving people's way of life (and ours) by our instruction and teaching and not ripping them off to satisfy our own greed. We should be giving more to the people we teach (instruction and quality of life), than what we get in return (money). I hope the people talked about in this thread are more of the excepton than the rule. I know my Sifu is not like that and glad I found him so many years ago.



Its a lovely sentiment, but ultimately misguided. Like any sport or pursuit of wisdom - if you want to progress, you will have to pay or sacrifice things. It does annoy me when people whinge about having to pay to learn martial arts. It is the simple truth of this world - if you want something, you pay for it. People who go to private schools will do better than those who go to public schools (on average). It sucks, but thats the way of the world. Sure its nice to train out of class with like minded guys, but if you want to learn from someone who does martial arts as their career, you should expect to hand over money. Im lucky that Im in an organisation which has very reasonable fees and with an instructor who is extremely generous. To put it in perspective - if you were a tennis player and you wanted to learn from Pete Sampras, you would be forking out a lot of money!!

Im not a fan of LT in general after meeting him a couple of times. Yet, people may leave their organisation for a variety of reasons and I think its unfair to discuss the morality of their instructors etc, without knowing them first hand.


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## WTchap (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree largely with KamonGuy2 (hey, are you Big Steve?). I also think that most people know (or learn) from fairly early on that WT from Leung Ting is not the cheapest option. No one forces these people to train for years and hand over their money ;-)

There are many reasons why people/groups leave the WT organization, but what always makes me laugh is how often people leave to set up their own group and it is clear that one of the biggest motivations to do so is to take the money themselves (without needing to hand it over to someone else). 

It should also be said that 'where' you train WT determines the fees. Here in Hungary the fees are not outrageous - Leung Ting is giving a seminar this weekend in Budapest and the cost is about $90 (for two, three-hour sessions). This cost also includes lunch :-D


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## geezer (Dec 2, 2011)

_@WT Chap and KamonGuy2:

_Welcome to the forum guys. In case you haven't noticed, we are a little different from those other forums here at MartialTalk. We really are a pretty friendly bunch, and except for a little joking around, we don't trash each others organization's or sifus. Not much, anyway. Some of us here are former students of GM Leung Ting, or students of some of his former students, like Emin, for example. If we left, it was for various reasons. Sometimes financial, somtimes personal, whatever. To be honest, I don't know of anybody who trained personally/privately under him, as I did many years ago, who doubts his skill and knowledge when it comes to WingTsun. He' the GM of WT. That's the short of it.

_@WTChap:_ if you're from Hungary, you must be one of Norbert's guys. It would be great to get some input from you, especially on technical issues relevant to the WC/VT/WTsystem as a whole, and to the WT branch in particular. I've never had the financial resources to travel abroad to study WT but can't help but notice that each region has a slghtly different take on WT. There's the Hong Kong way, the American Way, KK's_ EWTO_ "flavor" and you guys with Norbert Maday's _EEWTO_. Each is a bit different, so I hope you decide to hang around here at MartialTalk and share some ideas.

_@KamonGuy2:_ We used to have a guy on here just called _KamonGuy._ He was grumpy, cantankerous, and really impatient with some of the garbage that people would post. He was also a strong advocate for the Kamon system and cross training between WC and BJJ. He finally left us and moved on, but for a long time he was one of our major posters here, and his input was missed when he drifted away. Just thought you should know that when you took on the name _KamonGuy2_ you stepped into some big shoes! Good to have you with us!


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 2, 2011)

geezer said:


> _@WT Chap and KamonGuy2:
> 
> __@KamonGuy2:_ We used to have a guy on here just called _KamonGuy._ He was grumpy, cantankerous, and really impatient with some of the garbage that people would post. He was also a strong advocate for the Kamon system and cross training between WC and BJJ. He finally left us and moved on, but for a long time he was one of our major posters here, and his input was missed when he drifted away. Just thought you should know that when you took on the name _KamonGuy2_ you stepped into some big shoes! Good to have you with us!



I do indeed... For I is he!!! I have returned... A lot of crazy stuff happened (which I cant discuss openly on here for legal reasons) so I was unable to post during that time. I couldnt remember my password so Ive created a new account. I was never grumpy, just frustrated at those guys who still insist they would never go to the ground...


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## WTchap (Dec 5, 2011)

@geezer

Indeed, I train with one of Maday Norbert's instructors. I've been lucky that my work has taken me into Asia, the US and all over Europe, so it is nice that I have been able to see MAs practiced in various places, including numerous WT groups. ;-)

I agree, there really does seem to be a 'flavor' to the art based on where you are learning it. Maday Norbert is very dedicated to teaching Leung Ting's art as it is given to him via Hong Kong - so nothing added or subtracted in terms of technique, form, theory, concepts, tactics, etc. But perhaps the flavor for our region is more to do with the training methods - in our class we have a good amount of pad work and bag work, and we often wear padded chest protectors so we can practice drills and exercises that involve making some real contact/hitting through the training partner.  ;-)

At the higher grades, the training looks really quite tough, very physical. But this is part of the regional approach (IMO). Here in Hungary for example, there is a very strong tradition of Kempo, Kyokushinkai Karate and Krav Maga (the founder was Hungarian by birth), and those guys train HARD! So this kinda sets the pace for other MAs that have a combative/self defense nature. Add to this a growing popularity for MMA and BJJ, and well, you get the picture - Hungarians like to hit each other :-D


@KamonGuy 2

... so for you this is the second coming!  Hope you and the Croydon Kamon team are doing well - give my regards to those who might remember me. And if I can ask, when did you get the chance to meet Leung Ting? I didn't think he made it to the UK that often these days.


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## geezer (Dec 5, 2011)

Thanks for the insights. Here in the States, the initial WT group (of which I was a part) tried to keep our WT exactly as we were taught by our sifu, LT, but honestly, we didn't have a lot of hard-core fighters in out group, so some realism was lost. Then Emin came over and added that element, but also like his sifu, KK and a lot of the EWTO guys, he made a lot of changes in the system. Then there were some big organizational splits. I left martial arts altogether for many years before returning to WT/WC/VT. Now I train under an independent, formerly master-ranked WT guy who once was my si-dei under LT who _also_ trained with KK in Germany. We both have worked with Emin in the past so I have some sense of the different "flavors" I mentioned. Although I have never met anybody from the EEWTO, from what I've seen on Youtube, I have to agree with you. Norbert and his top guys look really _hard-core_!


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## KamonGuy2 (Dec 5, 2011)

WTchap said:


> @geezer
> 
> @KamonGuy 2
> 
> ... so for you this is the second coming!  Hope you and the Croydon Kamon team are doing well - give my regards to those who might remember me. And if I can ask, when did you get the chance to meet Leung Ting? I didn't think he made it to the UK that often these days.



Lets just say, I get around.... Ive met a few of the famous (and infamous) wing chunners out there - Alan Gibson, Shaun Rawcliffe, Alan Orr, James Sinclair, Ip chun, Ip Chin, Gary Lam, William Cheung, Wan Kam Leung, etc. There are still a few Ive yet to meet in person, but I love to get around. I rarely give an opinion on styles or instructors I havent trained with. I like to get a taste of things first hand.

Croydon is still going strong with a lot of great characters down there

I hope you're enjoying your training over there - sounds like you found a good school


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