# The Siu Baat Qua foot Work Form



## futsaowingchun (Nov 13, 2020)

This is Buddha Hand Wing Chun's 4th form called Sui Baat Qua, or the little octagon. This form is an advanced footwork form taught to senior advance student in the Fut Sao or Buddha Hand Wing Chun system. This form is revealed for the first time to the general public for educational purposes and for posterity. There is a total of 8 sections this the first section. 

 The foot work patter is as follows step clockwise 180 degrees the back 180 degrees, then step clock wise 90 degrees then 180 degrees then back.. repeat this 4x then repeat the whole thing counter clockwise..

It's a lot easier to under the form by watching it then me trying to explain it... But anyway, am not much of a forms person but in the Wing Chun world very few people know about this one and I believe this is the first time its been made available on video.. I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...oh BTW I've been gone a long time.. but am back..


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## yak sao (Nov 14, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> This is Buddha Hand Wing Chun's 4th form called Sui Baat Qua, or the little octagon. This form is an advanced footwork form taught to senior advance student in the Fut Sao or Buddha Hand Wing Chun system. This form is revealed for the first time to the general public for educational purposes and for posterity. There is a total of 8 sections this the first section.
> 
> The foot work patter is as follows step clockwise 180 degrees the back 180 degrees, then step clock wise 90 degrees then 180 degrees then back.. repeat this 4x then repeat the whole thing counter clockwise..
> 
> It's a lot easier to under the form by watching it then me trying to explain it... But anyway, am not much of a forms person but in the Wing Chun world very few people know about this one and I believe this is the first time its been made available on video.. I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...oh BTW I've been gone a long time.. but am back..



Welcome back.
I read about this form several years ago and have always been curious about it.

Thanks for sharing.


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## yak sao (Nov 14, 2020)

In the interest of discussion,  I heard that Leung Jan eliminated this form from his curriculum in an effort to simplify his wing chun because the movements were already contained in the dummy set.

From seeing the first section of the form this seems to be true as these movement's are in Yip Man's dummy set.

Is that true of the entire form or are there nuggets of info unique to this form?

Again, thanks for putting that out there.


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## wckf92 (Nov 14, 2020)

Agree with @yak sao about this being in Yip Man wc. Between the footwork in the dummy sets, weapons, and tri-poles...its all there. Thanks for sharing the video!


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## Flying Crane (Nov 14, 2020)

My question is, why is this form taught to advanced students and not to beginners?  Footwork is foundational material and, in my opinion, should be taught from an early stage in training.  Any drill or form or exercise that effectively teaches and develops those skills ought to be introduced early and ought to be a consistent staple of training forever.

In addition, I didn’t see anything in that clip that struck me as complex or difficult, that a beginner (not day one, of course, but inside of six months or a year) couldn’t learn.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 14, 2020)

yak sao said:


> In the interest of discussion,  I heard that Leung Jan eliminated this form from his curriculum in an effort to simplify his wing chun because the movements were already contained in the dummy set.
> 
> From seeing the first section of the form this seems to be true as these movement's are in Yip Man's dummy set.
> 
> ...


This is just my opinion as an outsider, but the way I see it, it is always a good idea to train drills and exercises that focus on a particular skillset, even if those skills are found elsewhere in the system.  

As an example, which I realize isn’t a perfect comparison, but perhaps you can humor me for the sake of the discussion, I spend a lot of time drilling my fundamental punches in a variety of ways, even though those punches are found in my forms.  I spend a lot more time working on those fundamentals in isolation or short drills and combinations, than I do practicing my forms. If I only did my forms with the logic that “everything” is found in the forms, I would have a lot less repetition and my skill with all of those techniques would be significantly reduced.

My point being: techniques are found in multiple places within a system, this reinforces the practice of the system, so why eliminate something that is a focused drill?  Wing chun is a system with a fairly small formalized curriculum.  Does it need to be further streamlined?


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 14, 2020)

yak sao said:


> In the interest of discussion,  I heard that Leung Jan eliminated this form from his curriculum in an effort to simplify his wing chun because the movements were already contained in the dummy set.
> 
> From seeing the first section of the form this seems to be true as these movement's are in Yip Man's dummy set.
> 
> ...




There are 7 more sections or qua's each one is different ...I don't know if the story of the Leung Jan shorting the curriculum is true of not.. I would say IMO that the circular foot work is in your dummy and also  knife form,but in your dummy your not able to walk around 180 degree due to its a dead dummy..You need to walk around it 360 degree.. The latter qua's deal with multi persons so position is stressed.


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## Danny T (Nov 14, 2020)

Thank you for sharing.
Of what was shown; I learned not from Forms but through footwork drills and partner drills.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 14, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> My question is, why is this form taught to advanced students and not to beginners?  Footwork is foundational material and, in my opinion, should be taught from an early stage in training.  Any drill or form or exercise that effectively teaches and develops those skills ought to be introduced early and ought to be a consistent staple of training forever.
> 
> In addition, I didn’t see anything in that clip that struck me as complex or difficult, that a beginner (not day one, of course, but inside of six months or a year) couldn’t learn.




this form is learnt later on in your training.. In the Buddha Hand lineage the curriculum is as follows, Siu Nim Tao, Chum Kiu, Bil Tze, then Siu Baat Qwa, Then Dummy, Then weapons..The basic foot work you learn in the first and second form is more fundamental and critical then the Siu Baat Qwa IMO but also important as well but not necessary to be functional at Wing Chun.. I use the word advance not meaning harder to do but not meant for the novice..


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## yak sao (Nov 14, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> There are 7 more sections or qua's each one is different ...I don't know if the story of the Leung Jan shorting the curriculum is true of not.. I would say IMO that the circular foot work is in your dummy and also  knife form,but in your dummy your not able to walk around 180 degree due to its a dead dummy..You need to walk around it 360 degree.. The latter qua's deal with multi persons so position is stressed.



Yeah, while the application of the scissors step has us going behind our opponent, the dummy configuration keeps us from actially practicing it fully on the dummy.

Since Fut Sao Wing Chun is mainland wing chun I suppose it traditionally uses the post design rather than the wall mounted design?

Do you have any links to your dummy form for comparison?


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## yak sao (Nov 14, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> This is just my opinion as an outsider, but the way I see it, it is always a good idea to train drills and exercises that focus on a particular skillset, even if those skills are found elsewhere in the system.
> 
> As an example, which I realize isn’t a perfect comparison, but perhaps you can humor me for the sake of the discussion, I spend a lot of time drilling my fundamental punches in a variety of ways, even though those punches are found in my forms.  I spend a lot more time working on those fundamentals in isolation or short drills and combinations, than I do practicing my forms. If I only did my forms with the logic that “everything” is found in the forms, I would have a lot less repetition and my skill with all of those techniques would be significantly reduced.
> 
> My point being: techniques are found in multiple places within a system, this reinforces the practice of the system, so why eliminate something that is a focused drill?  Wing chun is a system with a fairly small formalized curriculum.  Does it need to be further streamlined?



I don't disagree with this. In my pre WT days I trained a Kung Fu system that used forms extensively.

As I'm sure you know the Wing Chun approach to forms is more of a cataloguing, while the forms should be practiced extensively so that they are ingrained , The Lion's Share of training is partner work where the forms are brought to life.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Yeah, while the application of the scissors step has us going behind our opponent, the dummy configuration keeps us from actially practicing it fully on the dummy.
> 
> Since Fut Sao Wing Chun is mainland wing chun I suppose it traditionally uses the post design rather than the wall mounted design?
> 
> Do you have any links to your dummy form for comparison?




The original  Fut Sao dummy used a stake dummy which you were able to move around it 360 degree , GM Henry Leung  perferred the Ip Man style dummy and though it was better to train the ging on the dummy and adopted it.. So I don't know what the origianl dummy form looks like but here is an old video of our dummy form.. I do mine a little different..


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## geezer (Nov 15, 2020)

yak sao said:


> Yeah, while the application of the scissors step has us going behind our opponent, the dummy configuration keeps us from actially practicing it fully on the dummy.



Yeah, opposite what Futsao stated, the wall-mounted "live dummy" is what prevents us from moving 180° behind the dummy. The old "dead dummy" set in the ground did allow that. I think he got that backwards.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 17, 2020)

Both types of dummies have there advantages and disadvantages which is why have the siu baat qwa form the the jong..in the jong we do have a move 90 degrees quite a lot but in the Ip Man dummy you only use the 45 degree angle on the jong..


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 19, 2020)

Here is the 2nd section or qwa..it may look the same as the first section but this time instead of you walking around your opponent or your oppoenent being on the inside of the circle now you have changed place so now your on the inside of the circle and your opponent is on the outside..


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 19, 2020)

The proper name of this form is 小八卦拳, and it does not mean "little octagon". "Little Octagon" maybe comes from its Bagua genes, who knows, or just a bad translation somewhere.  It makes half-sense if you know the genealogy.

The name actually means "8 little hexagrams" or " 8 little but divine trigrams" (this is from the I Ching).

It's not limited to any lineage of Wing Chun, it's a well known Choy Li Fut method, actually broken down into many.  But Choy Li Fut has almost 10 fist sets like this, same name but broken out to different animal and element aspects.

Siu Baat Gwa Kuen (小八卦拳) – Small Eight Trigrams Form
Baat Gwa Saam Kuen (八卦心拳) – Heart of the Eight Trigrams Form
Dai Baat Gwa Kuen (大八卦拳) – Big Eight Trigrams Form
Moi Fa Baat Gwa Kuen (梅花八卦拳) – Plum Flower Eight Trigrams Form
Yi Jung Baat Gwa Kuen (義壯八卦拳) – Strong Righteousness Eight Trigrams Form
Daat Ting Baat Gwa Kuen (達亭八卦麒拳) – Daat Ting’s Eight Trigrams Form
Hung Yan Baat Gwa Kuen (熊人八卦拳) – Bear Man Eight Trigrams Form
Dou Fu Baat Gwa Kuen (斗虎八卦拳) – Fighting Tiger Eight Trigrams Form
Ng Ying Dai Baat Gwa Kuen (五形大八卦拳) – Five Animals Big Eight Trigrams Form


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The proper name of this form is 小八卦拳, and it does not mean "little octagon". "Little Octagon" maybe comes from its Bagua genes, who knows, or just a bad translation somewhere.  It makes half-sense if you know the genealogy.
> 
> The name actually means "8 little hexagrams" or " 8 little but divine trigrams" (this is from the I Ching).
> 
> ...




You say its not limited to any Wing Chun lineage beside fut sao lineage I have never seen it anywhere,,


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## Marnetmar (Nov 20, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The proper name of this form is 小八卦拳, and it does not mean "little octagon". "Little Octagon" maybe comes from its Bagua genes, who knows, or just a bad translation somewhere.  It makes half-sense if you know the genealogy.
> 
> The name actually means "8 little hexagrams" or " 8 little but divine trigrams" (this is from the I Ching).
> 
> ...



It's almost as if different arts can have different forms of the same name


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## Flying Crane (Nov 21, 2020)

Marnetmar said:


> It's almost as if different arts can have different forms of the same name


They do. 

A common one is five animals.  A form by that name exists in many different systems.  But they are not the same form.


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 22, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> This is MCM Wing Chun's advanced foot work form . This form is an advanced footwork form taught to senior advance student in the MCM Wing Chun system. This form is revealed for the first time to the general public for educational purposes and for posterity. There is a total of 8 sections this the first section.
> 
> The foot work patter is as follows step clockwise 180 degrees the back 180 degrees, then step clock wise 90 degrees then 180 degrees then back.. repeat this 4x then repeat the whole thing counter clockwise..
> 
> It's a lot easier to under the form by watching it then me trying to explain it... But anyway, am not much of a forms person but in the Wing Chun world very few people know about this one and I believe this is the first time its been made available on video.. I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...oh BTW I've been gone a long time.. but am back..


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## futsaowingchun (Nov 22, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> This MCM Wing Chun advanced footwork form taught to senior students in the MCM Wing Chun system. This form is revealed for the first time to the general public for educational purposes and for posterity. There is a total of 8 sections this the first section.
> 
> The foot work patter is as follows step clockwise 180 degrees the back 180 degrees, then step clock wise 90 degrees then 180 degrees then back.. repeat this 4x then repeat the whole thing counter clockwise..
> 
> It's a lot easier to under the form by watching it then me trying to explain it... But anyway, am not much of a forms person but in the Wing Chun world very few people know about this one and I believe this is the first time its been made available on video.. I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...oh BTW I've been gone a long time.. but am back..


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 23, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> You say its not limited to any Wing Chun lineage beside fut sao lineage I have never seen it anywhere,,



What other Chinese styles have you studied?  How familiar are you with the I Ching hexagrams?

Trigrams are kind of easy to spot in kung fu literature. They're kind of a big deal.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 23, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> They do.
> 
> A common one is five animals.  A form by that name exists in many different systems.  But they are not the same form.



Five animals, five elements.  Maybe.


Flying Crane said:


> They do.
> 
> A common one is five animals.  A form by that name exists in many different systems.  But they are not the same form.



The Eight Trigrams are pretty specific. Here is a child with better form than probably any of us.


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## Jens (Nov 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> What other Chinese styles have you studied?  How familiar are you with the I Ching hexagrams?
> 
> Trigrams are kind of easy to spot in kung fu literature. They're kind of a big deal.



Please explain your understanding of the I Ching hexagrams in regards to it’s relationship to wing chun.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Five animals, five elements.  Maybe.



It’s not “maybe”.  I’ve seen them.



> The Eight Trigrams are pretty specific. Here is a child with better form than probably any of us.


Another good example.  We also have a “fifth brother staff”.  It looks nothing like this one.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2020)

futsaowingchun said:


> ... Fut Sao ... I hope to generate some interest and have a discussion about and go into more detail if anyone is interested...


- Boxing emphasizes jab, cross, hook, and uppercut (offense tools).
- WC emphasizes Fu Shou, Tan Shou, and Bong Shou (defense tools).

Why?

May I ask a very stupid question here?

If you want to use a technique in this form to kill your opponent, which move will you use, and how?


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## Flying Crane (Nov 24, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> The Eight Trigrams are pretty specific. Here is a child with better form than probably any of us.



Here is another set with the same name: fifth son (“brother”, it is a reference to a family) eight trigrams.  Again, very different from the form by that name that you posted.  

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=emb_rel_end&v=hrSji8CX9k0


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## yak sao (Nov 24, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> - Boxing emphasizes jab, cross, hook, and uppercut (offense tools).
> - WC emphasizes Fu Shou, Tan Shou, and Bong Shou (defense tools).
> 
> Why?
> ...



They are not defensive moves.
The arms thrust forward and if unobstructed, they attack and continue to attack until the opponent is defeated.
If the path to the opponent is obstructed, then and only then do these various structures form.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2020)

yak sao said:


> They are not defensive moves.
> The arms thrust forward and if unobstructed, they attack and continue to attack until the opponent is defeated.
> If the path to the opponent is obstructed, then and only then do these various structures form.


Here are my questions:

- Palm strike is done by freezing the body and only move the arms.
- Palm strike is done after the footwork is stopped.
- The power generation has nothing to do with the footwork.

Why?


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2020)

yak sao said:


> They are not defensive moves.


If palm strike is used for offense, should power generation be included?

Does non-Ip Men WC have

- dynamic strike concept that striking while feet are moving?
- coordinate punch with foot landing?

If you always punch when your footwork stop, you will never be able to develop hand and foot coordination. This is my main concern.


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## yak sao (Nov 24, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Here are my questions:
> 
> - Palm strike is done by freezing the body and only move the arms.
> - Palm strike is done after the footwork is stopped.
> ...



It sounds like you are basing all of WC on the Siu Nim Tao form.
While this form is extremely important, it is not representative of how a WC practitioner moves and fights. 
WC done correctly has very active footwork to not only move around the opponent but also to dissolve our opponent's force and multiply the force of our own attack.
BTW, getting back the Siu Nim Tao form, one of the things it develops is body unity, so what looks like arm movements are actually involving the whole body.


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## yak sao (Nov 24, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If palm strike is used for offense, should power generation be included?
> 
> Does non-Ip Men WC have
> 
> ...



I can't speak for non Yip Man lineages as my lineage is from the YM line, but just like every reputable MA,  wing Chun uses footwork.


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## Kung Fu Wang (Nov 24, 2020)

yak sao said:


> I can't speak for non Yip Man lineages as my lineage is from the YM line, but just like every reputable MA,  wing Chun uses footwork.


If this is the 4th WC form, I'll expect that the striking and footwork should be integrated together and not separate apart.

- Step, step, turn. strike.
- Step, slide, turn, strike.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 24, 2020)

Jens said:


> Please explain your understanding of the I Ching hexagrams in regards to it’s relationship to wing chun.



Oh god we don't have that kind of time, but here's a lame attempt.

How do you tell whether a trigram is Yin or Yang in fundamental nature?

Hint: there are 2 trigrams in a hexagram.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 24, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> It’s not “maybe”.  I’ve seen them.



Oh, so it's not Ten Animals, or Ten Elements?

Ten symbols?

Maybe you see where I'm going with this.


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## Svarog (Nov 25, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Does non-Ip Men WC have
> 
> -.


Fut Sao is actually slightly modified Yip Man's wing chun. Even a superficial research will show that. It is interesting how people believe everything their teacher say, even if the story has no base in realty and zero proof.


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## wckf92 (Nov 25, 2020)

yak sao said:


> It sounds like you are basing all of WC on the Siu Nim Tao form.



I think so too. 
Don't get me wrong...KFW is probably a thousand times more skillful and experienced than I am...but from his posts and his understanding of wing chun, I'd say he was either taught incorrectly and/or was taught to look at wing chun in a 'literal' fashion.


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## Flying Crane (Nov 25, 2020)

Oily Dragon said:


> Oh, so it's not Ten Animals, or Ten Elements?
> 
> Ten symbols?
> 
> Maybe you see where I'm going with this.


Um, no.  I’ve seen other forms called “five animals.”  Not ten.  Five.  Not symbols.  Animals.  We have one in my system.  I’ve seen others.  They are nothing like the one we do.


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## Callen (Nov 25, 2020)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> If this is the 4th WC form, I'll expect that the striking and footwork should be integrated together and not separate apart.
> 
> - Step, step, turn. strike.
> - Step, slide, turn, strike.


It sounds like your questions are better suited for the OP that shared the video (@futsaowingchun), hopefully either he or another Fut Sao Wing Chun practitioner can help give you some insight.


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## Oily Dragon (Nov 26, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Um, no.  I’ve seen other forms called “five animals.”  Not ten.  Five.  Not symbols.  Animals.  We have one in my system.  I’ve seen others.  They are nothing like the one we do.



The word is "Ying" (symbol, pattern).  Ng Ying, Sup Ying.

There are a few variations of the southern family Five Animals sets, and then the Sup Ying (Ten Pattern) sets.  In Hung Kuen for example the Wong Fei Hung school contains the Five Animal Fist (Ng Ying Kuen), but in other schools it's called Five Animal, Five Element Fist, but still it is called Sup Ying Kuen (5 Pattern Fist), patterns being Dragon, Snake, Tiger, Leopard, and Crane (in that order).  

The important note is that Wing Chun contains only a handful of these, no matter the lineage, but it sometimes also contains interesting things like Bagua in this lineage.

Didn't you notice the "Baat Qua"?    Bagua.  Eight Trigrams Fist, in Wing Chun.  Such is the glory of kung fu.


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## geezer (Dec 1, 2020)

Flying Crane said:


> Um, no.  I’ve seen other forms called “five animals.”  Not ten.  Five.  Not symbols.  Animals....



OK then, how about animals with cymbals?


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## Marnetmar (Dec 2, 2020)

geezer said:


> OK then, how about animals with cymbals?



That's only one of them, you need four more


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