# is this sword decent???



## rocket999

Alright.  I am new here, so let me introduce myself.  My name is Sam Kelly, and I have been training in Tang So Do for six years now.  I have had my black belt for a year now.

I am looking for a new sword.  It won't be used for cutting, just for katas and practice.  I have a very small budget.  While looking around I found this one.

http://www.swordsoftheeast.com/masahiroassembleyourselfsamuraiswordblack.aspx

Does anyone own this sword?  Is it solid?  Would it be a good choice?  I originally saw it listed for $200 on another website before I saw it there.

Keep in mind that I won't be using it for cutting.  I know how much those would cost...

Thank you for any input.

Sam Kelly


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## Sukerkin

The short answer, as you probably expected, is a resounding "No!". .

The slightly longer answer is that for your first blade you do not want something you are going to have to assemble yourself when you don't know the first thing about swords.

The only real answer that you can get is to talk with your sensei and see what he or she recommends.  The only thing more dangerous than a shinken in the hands of someone untrained is a cheap 'wallhanger'.

It speaks to your good-sense that you thought to ask at a place where people might know what constitutes a decent enough sword but we really can't give you meaningful advice by remote, so to speak.


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## Sukerkin

Even for 'just' kata practise, which is what most Japanese swordwork is, you need to get the best blade you can afford.  Here are a few links to places where you can get swords of sufficient quality:

http://www.jidai.jp/ready-mlist.asp

http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/40.htm

http://www.ninecircles.co.uk/items.asp?CatID=22

Of these, my personal recommendation is Tozando.  I've used one of their high-end iaito for five years or more now and it is superb.  Of course it is also by no stretch of the imagination a 'budget' item.  

With swords, you get what you pay for and a blade you buy cheap will usually turn out expensive in terms of either lawyer or hospital bills .  As such, if you can't stretch to a decent one now, work with a bokken until you can.


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## Ken Morgan

I'm with Sukerkin, I wouldn't touch it.

The discription screams all sorts of things that are out of place, a handforged blade?? Yeah...right...not likely.

Shop around. An halfway decent beginner iaito is in the $400 range.

My first choice, (yes he is my sensei)... is  http://sdksupplies.netfirms.com/

Good luck, let us know what you decide.


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## jks9199

The price doesn't add up.  "Assembly" of a katana (whether iaito or shinken) or similar blade isn't where the cost is; making it properly in the first place is where the bulk of the cost is.  And they're essentially advertising this as a shinken or live blade.

I understand the budget issues -- but Sukerkin has it right.  You can learn the motions and technique properly with a bokken for a fraction of the price of either an iaito or a live blade.

FYI -- an iaito and a shinken should probably be rather closer in price than not.  After all, the primary difference is a step in finishing -- namely sharpening the blade!


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## Sukerkin

Just to round out Ken's post above, Kim Taylor does indeed have a high level of 'gravitas' when it comes to the JSA.  

From what I have heard, never having owned any of his products myself, they are well regarded ... from my own personal experience I'd still recommend Tozando  {and, no, I'm not on commission :lol:}.  It's just that they are the blades of which I can speak with the confidence of use.


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## MBuzzy

NO WAY!  Don't buy that sword.  I've bought an already assembled, quality blade for less than $500, but I wouldn't touch one like this unless I was an expert.

Try:

www.martialartswords.com


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## Chris Parker

jks9199 said:


> The price doesn't add up. "Assembly" of a katana (whether iaito or shinken) or similar blade isn't where the cost is; making it properly in the first place is where the bulk of the cost is. And they're essentially advertising this as a shinken or live blade.
> 
> I understand the budget issues -- but Sukerkin has it right. You can learn the motions and technique properly with a bokken for a fraction of the price of either an iaito or a live blade.
> 
> FYI -- an iaito and a shinken should probably be rather closer in price than not. After all, the primary difference is a step in finishing -- namely sharpening the blade!


 
Agreed to everyone saying to avoid this item completely, but just to clarify a point here JKS, an iaito and shinken are not just seperated by which is sharpened. A shinken (live blade sword, true sword) is made of steel (traditionally tamahagane, in different carbon levels for different purposes, strength, the ability to take an incredibly sharp edge, flexibility to take impact etc), whereas an iaito is typically made of a zinc/aluminium alloy, which is too soft to take and keep an edge, nor take much in the way of impact. An unsharpened steel sword is called a mogito. It essentially is just a shinken but not sharpened, however it can be if you desire down the track.

So there will be a larger gap between the pricing of an iaito and shinken, as the fundamental materials are different.


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## jks9199

Chris Parker said:


> Agreed to everyone saying to avoid this item completely, but just to clarify a point here JKS, an iaito and shinken are not just seperated by which is sharpened. A shinken (live blade sword, true sword) is made of steel (traditionally tamahagane, in different carbon levels for different purposes, strength, the ability to take an incredibly sharp edge, flexibility to take impact etc), whereas an iaito is typically made of a zinc/aluminium alloy, which is too soft to take and keep an edge, nor take much in the way of impact. An unsharpened steel sword is called a mogito. It essentially is just a shinken but not sharpened, however it can be if you desire down the track.
> 
> So there will be a larger gap between the pricing of an iaito and shinken, as the fundamental materials are different.


Thanks for the correction.  Still, I would expect that a *quality *iaito should probably not be too far in price from either shinken or mogito, no?  It still needs to be made to withstand the forces of training without bending, the grip and hilt must be properly made, and so on.

(And this particular item is claiming to be a shinken, as I read the ad!)


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## rocket999

Thank you for the responses.  I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.

What kind of blade would I want?  I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse.  I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct?  Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html

Look at the video at the bottom of the page.  He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal.  That may come in handy.

Am I getting warmer?

Sam


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## Ken Morgan

rocket999 said:


> Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.
> 
> What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html
> 
> Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.
> 
> Am I getting warmer?
> 
> Sam


 
?? So you want a blade for contact? umm why? You said you will only be using it for kata?
For contact, don't use anything anyone has suggested, in all seriousness just use a bokken.


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## Bruno@MT

Ken Morgan said:


> ?? So you want a blade for contact? umm why? You said you will only be using it for kata?
> For contact, don't use anything anyone has suggested, in all seriousness just use a bokken.



Or a fukuro shinai if you are looking for sparring opportunity.
There is a reason why kendoka use a shinai and wear significant armor. Even free form sparring with a bokken is dangerous enough that I would avoid it.


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## Chris Parker

rocket999 said:


> Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.
> 
> What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html
> 
> Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.
> 
> Am I getting warmer?
> 
> Sam


 
Hi Sam,

To be completely blunt here, if you can't afford something like the suggestions above, save until you can. Until then, a bokken is going to be your ideal. 

Really, it comes down to what you want it for. The very cheap ones are best for little more than a "decoration", rather than use. If you are doing kata with it, are you meaning drawing (as in iai), or with the blade drawn (such as kenjutsu or kendo kata)? For the first, look to an iaito not anything being advertised as a shinken. For the latter, really, stick to a bokken until you can afford something that is much safer than the ones you have found. I'm going to repeat that for emphasis. Until you can afford something much safer than the ones you have found.

If, however, you are wanting to do something with contact, if a partner is involved, a bokken is designed for this. If you are wanting to do some cutting, get advise from your instructor, and do not buy anything without getting them to check it out first! If you do not have an instructor and want to get into cutting, don't! Or, at the very least, make sure all your hospital insurance is up to date, and don't do anything around anyone else!

But I do have to ask, why is it handy if he can bend the sword, and then bend it back? All that shows me is that the build is not for contact/cutting/any form of impact at all. Not really ideal other than for the aforementioned decoration, I feel.


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## Bruno@MT

Chris Parker said:


> But I do have to ask, why is it handy if he can bend the sword, and then bend it back? All that shows me is that the build is not for contact/cutting/any form of impact at all. Not really ideal other than for the aforementioned decoration, I feel.



This is actually something I can speak about with any sort of 'authority'


That sword is waaaay to bendy to be designed for real cutting. You can see the man does not even have to lean into the effort. If you make hard contact with that blade, it will seriously 'wobble' and mess up both the cut and the edge. I sincerely doubt, from that test alone, that the edge material has the rockwell hardness I'd expect of a japanese sword. Imo, a katana treated like that should snap. And I wouldn't want to be near it when it happened without full leather apron, gloves, and face protection.

While it says 'clay tempered', there is an anomaly that has me doubting that it has been done properly. If you look at the bottom video on that page, at 01:07 there is a picture of the kissaki. The hamon line does not continue into the kissaki. There is an abrupt change at the yokote (the line between the length wise part of the blade and the point) that either means the hamon is not the result of differential hardening, OR the point was ground on the blade later on and not forged. Either possibility is bad.

Then there is the price. These swords can be bought in bulk for about 120$. That is nothing. 120 will buy you a mass produced quality pocketknife. Not a hand made clay tempered sword. Even a small handmade knife will set you back a couple hundred dollars for something made by a relatively unknown person like myself (I make straight razors btw). I know firsthand how much time and effort goes into making a knife by hand. 120 is simply too little to expect anything from that blade. The materials alone probably cover a significant percentage of the price of that sword. Then there is the fact that some of the price is profit. that leaves only a handful of dollars to turn a piece of steel bar into a handmade sword.

That sword is good only for hanging on the wall and looking at it. If you start swinging it around and try to cut things with it, accidents will happen sooner or later because that thing is not made for it.

If you want a sword that can withstand contact, you'll have to pay more than that. If you can't afford that, then you'll have to save up until you do.


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## Chris Parker

Okay, a quick re-read of the OP shows that Sam is not interested in cutting, so that's one less worry with such a blade! Cool. 

I'd still advise strongly against, though. Cheap blades tend to be cheap thoroughly, through from the blade itself to the handle and fittings. To let you know, typically a sword is held in place in the tsuka (handle) by one, or sometimes two, bamboo pins, called mekugi. If these are not of sufficient strength, they can break inside the handle, allowing the blade to fly out when performing a cut. Something of this quality I would not expect the mekugi (or equivalent, I'm not expecting anything "traditional" to actually be present....) I simply wouldn't trust to be swinging around under any circumstances.

A number of years (decades) ago, during an Iaido demonstration, the mekugi broke during a cut, allowing the blade to fly freely out of the tsuka. It struck a (from memory) 4 year old girl in the chest, killing her. Now, I'm not expecting that you would be doing such a thing in public, but it can still do a fair bit of damage!

This, by the way, is why there is such an emphasis on care of your weapon in sword arts, particularly the Japanese Sword Arts. Knowledge of how to use your sword is woefully incomplete without knowing how to care for it, and ensure that it is always in safe working order. Think of a sword the same way you would a firearm, with the exception that you don't need to reload any ammunition. These weapons demand respect, and these items don't really qualify I'm afraid. Have the respect for your art and yourself, and save for something that would be worth the money.


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## MBuzzy

rocket999 said:


> Thank you for the responses. I looked at the links, but I really can't pay that kind of money.
> 
> What kind of blade would I want? I want something that is reasonably tough, so it can withstand some light abuse. I am doing some research and it seems like I want a differentially tempered blade made from something like 1060 steel. Is this correct? Something like this?http://www.handmadesword.com/351.html
> 
> Look at the video at the bottom of the page. He bends the sword quite a bit and it returns to normal. That may come in handy.
> 
> Am I getting warmer?
> 
> Sam


 
Why does it have to be a steel blade?  Why doesn't a bokken suffice?  Or possibly a saegum or kagum (Korean terms for practice swords, usually made from aluminum or some other blend, but mimic the weight, feel, and "sound" of a real blade)?  

Honestly, if you can't afford a real quality blade, then you shouldn't be purchasing one at all.  It will only endanger your safety and the safety of those around you.


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## lklawson

MBuzzy said:


> Why does it have to be a steel blade?


Because most cultures that have developed the sword, including ours, have a special reverence for the sword.  It equates power, prestige, wealth, and authority in a way that few other icons ever have.

The Knights of the middle ages were primarily horse-mounted lancers.  The Samurai were more often horse-mounted archers or any number of other things.  The french Musketeers were firearms the experts of the time.  The Pirates, Privateers, and Naval soldiers of the Age of Piracy were more likely to prefer a pistol, long-barrel, blunder-buss, or mounted gun than a cutlass.  But, in our collective consciousness, when we think of any of these, we think of their swords.

There is a mystique to the sword that almost no other weapon has (the Bowie Knife and the Colt SAA "6-shooter" have come close in the U.S. and the walking-ax has a special place in the Carpathian mountains).

Ah... but the sword!

That's why it has to be a steel blade.  Don't tell me you don't own one.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Chris Parker

Absolutely, Kirk. I personally think this has a lot to do with the fact that the sword was developed pretty much exclusively for the killing of other human beings, so it represents the power over the lives and deaths of other people (hence it being symbolic of so many kings/emperors/etc), as opposed to other weapons that were designed initially as hunting tools, and then adapted, such as spears, bow-and-arrow, knives, even rifles. But swords, like pistols, are not really suited to hunting due to their (relative) short range. But they are incredibly effective at seperating someone from their life.

Of course, you do know that that was not what MBuzzy was refering to, right?


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## MBuzzy

lklawson said:


> Because most cultures that have developed the sword, including ours, have a special reverence for the sword. It equates power, prestige, wealth, and authority in a way that few other icons ever have.
> 
> The Knights of the middle ages were primarily horse-mounted lancers. The Samurai were more often horse-mounted archers or any number of other things. The french Musketeers were firearms the experts of the time. The Pirates, Privateers, and Naval soldiers of the Age of Piracy were more likely to prefer a pistol, long-barrel, blunder-buss, or mounted gun than a cutlass. But, in our collective consciousness, when we think of any of these, we think of their swords.
> 
> There is a mystique to the sword that almost no other weapon has (the Bowie Knife and the Colt SAA "6-shooter" have come close in the U.S. and the walking-ax has a special place in the Carpathian mountains).
> 
> Ah... but the sword!
> 
> That's why it has to be a steel blade. Don't tell me you don't own one.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
I think you misunderstood me....I am 100% aware of the reasons why a sword should be steel....

I am asking why the OP is so intent on getting a jingum (live blade)?  If it is only for Kata, as many other have said, a bokken or practice blade will do and he can get it at the cost that he's looking for.  I have developed a very healthy respect for live blades through years of cutting practice and I firmly believe that you should use very strict judgement as to when you use a live blade.  I do practice my forms with a live sword occassionally, because I think it is necessary, but not every time.  Not even close.  I still only use a bokken most of the time.  

Another reason I ask is that I also train in Tang Soo Do and I realize that some schools do train weapons, but sword IS NOT a primary part of the curriculum - I would be surprised if it was even introduced before cho dan.  It just doesn't seem like enough time to be practicing forms with a live blade to me.  Even some of my most basic sword forms can be very dangerous to practitioner and observers if not done with care.


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## MBuzzy

And yes, I own one.    Samgakdo though....(three angled blade only for cutting tamashegiri (excuse my japanese, I only know the Korean terms, so I'm trying to get better with the Japanese terms))....for many of the same reasons we're talking about.  I would LOVE to have a yukgakdo jingum (back to Korean, a bamboo cutting sword, the real thing), but I can't afford one of sufficient quality.  The samgakdo that I own I got at an incredible deal for only $400 from a master who had an extra.


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## lklawson

Chris Parker said:


> Absolutely, Kirk. I personally think this has a lot to do with the fact that the sword was developed pretty much exclusively for the killing of other human beings, so it represents the power over the lives and deaths of other people (hence it being symbolic of so many kings/emperors/etc), as opposed to other weapons that were designed initially as hunting tools, and then adapted, such as spears, bow-and-arrow, knives, even rifles. But swords, like pistols, are not really suited to hunting due to their (relative) short range. But they are incredibly effective at seperating someone from their life.


In a lot of ways, there's a sort of cultural "feedback loop" on these sort of things.  It's desirable and mythic because, umm... it's desirable and mythic.  Over and over again, into itself.  



> Of course, you do know that that was not what MBuzzy was refering to, right?


I'm not trying to be a wang.  I think that's probably not what Mr. Buzzy was referring to but I think it is an important factor in why the OP was referring to it.  A wooden sword just doesn't have the same emotional impact as a live blade.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

MBuzzy said:


> I think you misunderstood me....I am 100% aware of the reasons why a sword should be steel....


I have no doubt that you do, and I'm not doubting your assertions and recommendations.  But you're thinking of PRACTICAL reasons.  I'm contending that an important driving reason behind many sword purchases, even for "serious martial artists," have less to do with practical practice and more to do with emotional reasons.



> I am asking why the OP is so intent on getting a jingum (live blade)?


Yeah, I'm with you so far.  



> If it is only for Kata, as many other have said, a bokken or practice blade will do and he can get it at the cost that he's looking for.


And here's where I think we started thinking cross-wise.  I contend that for many people, perhaps (even likely) the OP, practical reasons are not the sole motivator.  "Real Swords" have a mystique that is, possibly, even more important to martial artists.



> I have developed a very healthy respect for live blades through years of cutting practice


[nods]That'll tend to do it, yeah.  And perusing the net's store of pics from "I was test cutting and it went wonky fast - here's a pic of what's left of my leg" doesn't hurt in that regard either.  But, yeah, practical experience goes a long, long way.



> and I firmly believe that you should use very strict judgement as to when you use a live blade.  I do practice my forms with a live sword occassionally, because I think it is necessary, but not every time.  Not even close.  I still only use a bokken most of the time.


Sure thing.  I agree that "live blade" practice shouldn't be promoted for the newbie.  However, if you want to understand the weapon you're studying, at some point you've got to do some actual work with said weapon.  Sure, start with wood/rattan/bamboo/whatever.  Progress to blunts and "proper weight" blunts, etc.  But at some point you've got to actually handle "the real deal" if you want to know your weapon.

At what point?  Well, we all agree that "white belt" probably isn't it.  Past that, it's really a matter for the student and instructor, right?



> Another reason I ask is that I also train in Tang Soo Do and I realize that some schools do train weapons, but sword IS NOT a primary part of the curriculum - I would be surprised if it was even introduced before cho dan.


Many years ago, I also practiced TSD so I share your feelings.



> It just doesn't seem like enough time to be practicing forms with a live blade to me.  Even some of my most basic sword forms can be very dangerous to practitioner and observers if not done with care.


You and I agree that swords, improperly handled, can be dangerous.  Same goes for most tools in our world I suppose.

You ask "why does it have to be a steel blade?"

For the same reason that the vast majority of people who walk through your door and want to learn a weapon will want the sword to either be the first or the end-goal at the very least.  The same reason that people who go to one of my friends teaching Knightly Combat want to learn the sword.  The same reason as fill-in-the-blank.  You're experienced, you know all the reasons give and have probably had them presented to you personally umpteen times by now.

I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk.  I'm just answering the question with unfortunate honesty.  It has little to do with practical reasons and boat-loads to do with the emotional context of swords.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ken Morgan

Emotional impact? OK.

Look for partner practice a wooden bokken is best, for the simple reason that an iaito or a shinken will take damage to the blade. Also, regardless of what you think, when it gets down to it, sword is a hobby, we have to get up and go to work or school tomorrow, using anything other than a wooden bokken for partner practice is dangerous. It is a danger we do not have to subject ourselves to in order to learn how to use a sword.

For solo kata, use whatever you can afford and what feels right in your hands. I use a shinken simply because I like its weight and balance. I would gladly use an iaito if I could find my shinkens twin. (BTW I used a bokken for my first six months, then an iaito for five years and I have been using a shinken for the last six years). Sometimes in class I will start training with my iaito or my bokken for a few weeks just to get a different feel, especially if I am working on something frustrating. Ive cut myself more than a few times, and I dont want to do so again.

Rocket999, dont buy the sword you mentioned. Wait and save up your money and buy something much better from one of the sites everyone has thrown out to you. In the intern use a nice bokken. In the end, its the practicing thats important, not the tool in your hands.


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## Ken Morgan

lklawson said:


> I have no doubt that you do, and I'm not doubting your assertions and recommendations. But you're thinking of PRACTICAL reasons. I'm contending that an important driving reason behind many sword purchases, even for "serious martial artists," have less to do with practical practice and more to do with emotional reasons.
> 
> Yeah, I'm with you so far.
> 
> And here's where I think we started thinking cross-wise. I contend that for many people, perhaps (even likely) the OP, practical reasons are not the sole motivator. "Real Swords" have a mystique that is, possibly, even more important to martial artists.
> 
> [nods]That'll tend to do it, yeah. And perusing the net's store of pics from "I was test cutting and it went wonky fast - here's a pic of what's left of my leg" doesn't hurt in that regard either. But, yeah, practical experience goes a long, long way.
> 
> Sure thing. I agree that "live blade" practice shouldn't be promoted for the newbie. However, if you want to understand the weapon you're studying, at some point you've got to do some actual work with said weapon. Sure, start with wood/rattan/bamboo/whatever. Progress to blunts and "proper weight" blunts, etc. But at some point you've got to actually handle "the real deal" if you want to know your weapon.
> 
> At what point? Well, we all agree that "white belt" probably isn't it. Past that, it's really a matter for the student and instructor, right?
> 
> Many years ago, I also practiced TSD so I share your feelings.
> 
> You and I agree that swords, improperly handled, can be dangerous. Same goes for most tools in our world I suppose.
> 
> You ask "why does it have to be a steel blade?"
> 
> For the same reason that the vast majority of people who walk through your door and want to learn a weapon will want the sword to either be the first or the end-goal at the very least. The same reason that people who go to one of my friends teaching Knightly Combat want to learn the sword. The same reason as fill-in-the-blank. You're experienced, you know all the reasons give and have probably had them presented to you personally umpteen times by now.
> 
> I'm honestly not trying to be a jerk. I'm just answering the question with unfortunate honesty. It has little to do with practical reasons and boat-loads to do with the emotional context of swords.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
Interesting, but I disagree. 

In my experience choosing a sword is based on practical reasons not emotional. To a newbie who has not idea what the JSA are about perhaps, but that quickly fades with everybody who has practiced more than a year or two.

I know plenty of amazing swordsmen who have never used a shinken before. You do not need to ever use a live blade in order to a good swordsman. Again, its not the tool that is important, its the attitude.


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## lklawson

Ken Morgan said:


> Emotional impact? OK.


Yup.  That's why a lot of people want to take up the sword.




> Look for partner practice a wooden bokken is best,


I do not disagree in the least.  Partner practice with live steel is dangerous.  It's hard enough to do with blunt steel.  Live "edged" bladed partner practice is just freaking insanely *STUPID*.

By my point is to motivation.



> for the simple reason that an iaito or a shinken will take damage to the blade. Also, regardless of what you think, when it gets down to it, sword is a hobby, we have to get up and go to work or school tomorrow, using anything other than a wooden bokken for partner practice is dangerous. It is a danger we do not have to subject ourselves to in order to learn how to use a sword.


I've never said any different and, in fact, have specifically said much the same thing elsewhere.

The question at hand wasn't "is two person partner practice with live steel a good idea?" but rather, "why does the OP want to use a steel sword for solo kata?"  I firmly believe I have given the base answer.



> In the end, its the practicing thats important, not the tool in your hands.


I can't fully agree.  Yes, to a point, this is true.  But at some point in the development, you must pick up the actual tool.  There's only so many virtual engines you can rebuild before you have to work on an actual V8.  There's only so many times that you can do dry-fire drills with your pistol (yes, it's important!) before you have to actually go to the range and put lead downrange.  And if you really want to understand your blade, at some point you're going to have to pick up an actual sword.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## lklawson

Ken Morgan said:


> Interesting, but I disagree.
> 
> In my experience choosing a sword is based on practical reasons not emotional. To a newbie who has not idea what the JSA are about perhaps, but that quickly fades with everybody who has practiced more than a year or two.


I agree.  But that's not what I was talking about.  As I said, I'm talking about what motivates people to want to learn/use the sword.




> I know plenty of amazing swordsmen who have never used a shinken before. You do not need to ever use a live blade in order to a good swordsman. Again, its not the tool that is important, its the attitude.


I can not agree.  Yes, there's a lot you can do using various sword simulators that can help you improve.  But if you want to learn to use a tool, at some point you have to actually use the tool.  

There's a reason that mogito exist.  If there was no need for them, then everyone would use boken or bokuto.  But instructors recognized the need to train with steel blunts so they and their students could get an accurate "feel" of the blades.

It's the same reason that tameshigiri exists.  Because if you want to understand how to cut with a blade, you have to cut with a blade.  Cutting air, simply isn't enough.  There are too many easy to miss problems that can occur "cutting air" which become apparent when test-cutting. (And, yes, if you don't understand how to cut and/or thrust with your blade, then you don't fully understand your blade.)

Please do not think that I am saying that two person drills are the right place for live blades.  That is foolhardy.  Even blunt steel blades should be reserved till after significant development with two person drills.

Nor am I saying that live blades are a great idea for solo drills.  Blunts are better for this.  

But I am saying that both blunt and live steel weapons are absolutely required for various elements of your training if you really want to understand the weapon.

Now, I think I've been pretty clear about my position and have laid out why I hold it, along with references to "real world" training.  I don't feel like having an argument over it.  If anyone wants me to clarify my position or answer specific points, I'll be happy.  But, I want to quit before it turns into a pissing match.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Ken Morgan

lklawson said:


> But at some point in the development, you must pick up the actual tool. There's only so many virtual engines you can rebuild before you have to work on an actual V8. There's only so many times that you can do dry-fire drills with your pistol (yes, it's important!) before you have to actually go to the range and put lead downrange. And if you really want to understand your blade, at some point you're going to have to pick up an actual sword.


 
Ok, so we disagree here.
I still don't think it is _*ever*_ necessary to use a live blade ever in one's JSA's career. I know of many amazing people who have done just that.


----------



## Ken Morgan

lklawson said:


> Now, I think I've been pretty clear about my position and have laid out why I hold it, along with references to "real world" training. I don't feel like having an argument over it. If anyone wants me to clarify my position or answer specific points, I'll be happy. But, I want to quit before it turns into a pissing match.
> 
> Peace favor your sword,
> Kirk


 
No problem. The JSA are a big thing, we each can have our own opinions freely.

*BUT YOU"RE WRONG!!* 
......Kidding!!

My experience tells me otherwise, as does yours. I don't think there is anyway to prove one point or the other.

Take care,


----------



## lklawson

Ken Morgan said:


> No problem. The JSA are a big thing, we each can have our own opinions freely.


Fair enough

*



			BUT YOU"RE WRONG!!
		
Click to expand...

*


> ......Kidding!!
> 
> My experience tells me otherwise, as does yours. I don't think there is anyway to prove one point or the other.


Duel?  [ducking]  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## Sukerkin

:lol:  Reminds me of the old joke about how many opinions you'd get if you asked ten Economists a question .

I'm sort of in the middle on the Shinken issue, thinking a bit like both Ken and Kirk (it depends on whether I have my 'student' or 'instructor' head on and what standard of swordsman I'm pondering ).  

I think that at some point the transition to live blade should be gone through as, from my own personal perspective, there is that 'emotional' difference between iaito and shinken that arises from that knowledge that it is a *weapon*, and not a simulacrum of one, that you hold.

Now that's something that's going to vary from person to person and I have no doubt that there are some that are quite capable of possessing the internal resources to 'feel' that sensation without having used a live blade.  It is also true that once you have practised with a shinken it is possible to carry that sensation with you whenever you practise, whatever you are using.

That is what I have had to do with the changes in law regarding katana over here in the Land of the Overly Legislated .


----------



## Ken Morgan

lklawson said:


> Duel?


 
OK, my choice of weapons. And I choose a duel by Scotch!!


----------



## Sukerkin

But I think that we are all united when we advise our new contributor that the last thing he needs to start with is a live blade.

After all, hands up here those of us who have cut ourselves in our training when we moved to shinken :hand in the air from me:.  It was only the once due to misjudging how long the _kissaki_ was whilst performing _mon iri_ but that was enough of a reminder that edged steel permits no liberties or inaccuracies.


----------



## Ken Morgan

:wavey:


----------



## lklawson

Ken Morgan said:


> OK, my choice of weapons. And I choose a duel by Scotch!!


Gah!  I'm a lightweight!  You win.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Sukerkin said:


> But I think that we are all united when we advise our new contributor that the last thing he needs to start with is a live blade.


Absolutely.  This isn't the 15th Century.  There's no need to rush training.



> After all, hands up here those of us who have cut ourselves in our training when we moved to shinken :hand in the air from me:.  It was only the once due to misjudging how long the _kissaki_ was whilst performing _mon iri_ but that was enough of a reminder that edged steel permits no liberties or inaccuracies.


Pft.  I'll do you one better.  I cut myself practicing rapid-deployments with a 3 1/2" "tac-folder."

And I only WISH I could say it was while I was actually practicing those deployments.

Nope.  Not me.  I gotta be different.

I'd finished my flick-opens and decided, "well, that's enough for today.  don't want to stress it or push my luck."  So I switch from my "tactiKool" open & close to a standard "two-handed safe close."  I let the back of my thumb get over the mouth and the blade slipped from my fingers, spring tensions taking over.

Instant owwie.  <sigh>

But I was able to take home a lesson.  When I was actually "working" I my awareness on high.  When I'd "finished" I let myself get foolishly lax.

At least I didn't get a scar from this one.  

Still carry the knife though.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## MBuzzy

lklawson said:


> I'm not trying to be a wang. I think that's probably not what Mr. Buzzy was referring to but I think it is an important factor in why the OP was referring to it. A wooden sword just doesn't have the same emotional impact as a live blade.


 
Here's the thing though - there are WAY WAY too many people running around with little to no sword training who just think swords are cool - that is the wrong kind of emotion here.  Personally, I don't give two hoots about a sword's emotional impact unless a person is 1) a Feudal Warrior or 2) a TRAINED sword expert.  In my style, you won't even TOUCH a live blade until you've been training for at least a year.  After that it is under tight supervision.  I just have to question why it is so important that it be a live blade and not a practice sword.


----------



## Flying Crane

Sukerkin said:


> But I think that we are all united when we advise our new contributor that the last thing he needs to start with is a live blade.
> 
> After all, hands up here those of us who have cut ourselves in our training when we moved to shinken :hand in the air from me:. It was only the once due to misjudging how long the _kissaki_ was whilst performing _mon iri_ but that was enough of a reminder that edged steel permits no liberties or inaccuracies.


 

I can do you one better than that:  I managed to stab myself in the shoulder with a SPEAR!!

Thankfully it didn't have a proper point or edge on it, but it does have a solid head on it.  Ended up being just a scrape, but it left a scar.  

Now if anybody asks about the scar, I just fix them with a steely gaze and say, "spear wound..."

I actually had a couple of training shirts that had holes in them from getting caught in the spearhead when I would flip the weapon backwards to grip it behind the head and stab behind me.  It's in the Shaolin form that I practice, so it's a legitimate move.  But my shirt was hanging loose and I stabbed thru it a couple times.

Hey, yeah, weapons can be dangerous to work with.  Best to recognize some basic safety limits.


----------



## Ken Morgan

MBuzzy said:


> In my style, you won't even TOUCH a live blade until you've been training for at least a year. After that it is under tight supervision. I just have to question why it is so important that it be a live blade and not a practice sword.


 
We don't have any rules on when you can use a live blade, generally it comes in around the four to five year mark and I know if you weren't ready for it Sensei would not let you practice with one.

I agree you don't *need* a use a shinken in order to be a real swordsman.


----------



## MBuzzy

lklawson,

I think we agree in most of what we're saying - I do completely agree that the emotional aspect is WHY most people get into swords and why people want a live blade....I just personally think it is wrong!  

The thing is - MOST people who show up and want to learn sword just because "swords are cool" and "I want to be a samurai" never last long enough to get a live blade.  Temper that with all of the people that go on ebay and century and try to buy a cheap live blade to play with in their back yards - not that I'm trying to say that anyone here is doing that....it is just where my strong opinion on the subject comes from.

So I think we agree in a roundabout way!


----------



## OnlyAnEgg

MBuzzy said:


> Temper that with all of the people that go on ebay and century and try to buy a cheap live blade to play with in their back yards - not that I'm trying to say that anyone here is doing that


 
ummm...I did.
Mostly, I play with my bokken, though


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Definitely listen to the advice of all the members here and purchase a booken, fukuro shinai and or iaito to train with.  Then train for a long time under the competent eyes of an instructor and eventually when they recommend you to train with a live sword then and only then would be a good time to purchase one.  Otherwise you are generally just throwing your money away on junk!


----------



## kungfu penguin

mantis swords might have something you can use www.mantisswords.com  you need to expect to drop at least 110-1500 bucks for a decent practice model  notice i did not not say combat sword  this is for practice only   a bokken is a good bet for right now  and if it was good enough for miyamoto musashi  it ought to fill your needs too


----------



## lklawson

MBuzzy said:


> lklawson,
> 
> I think we agree in most of what we're saying - I do completely agree that the emotional aspect is WHY most people get into swords and why people want a live blade....I just personally think it is wrong!


Fair enough.

And I don't disagree with the idea that pikers and people who aren't mature enough should be weeded out.  



> The thing is - MOST people who show up and want to learn sword just because "swords are cool" and "I want to be a samurai" never last long enough to get a live blade.  Temper that with all of the people that go on ebay and century and try to buy a cheap live blade to play with in their back yards - not that I'm trying to say that anyone here is doing that....it is just where my strong opinion on the subject comes from.
> 
> So I think we agree in a roundabout way!


Polite Discourse for the win.  

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## lklawson

Brian R. VanCise said:


> Definitely listen to the advice of all the members here and purchase a booken, fukuro shinai and or iaito to train with.  Then train for a long time under the competent eyes of an instructor and eventually when they recommend you to train with a live sword then and only then would be a good time to purchase one.  Otherwise you are generally just throwing your money away on junk!


Hard to find anything to disagree with in this advice!

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## d1jinx

curious as to why no one mentioned any hanwei/ paul chen sword?  Reasonably priced and nicely built (I thought) but i have no real in depth experience with multiple cutting and demonstration with them.  

I have only "wacked" at a thing or two, once or twice, but not enough to fully realize the reaction of the sword.

Is there an underlying problem with them that i am not aware of?


----------



## Ken Morgan

d1jinx said:


> curious as to why no one mentioned any hanwei/ paul chen sword? Reasonably priced and nicely built (I thought) but i have no real in depth experience with multiple cutting and demonstration with them.
> 
> I have only "wacked" at a thing or two, once or twice, but not enough to fully realize the reaction of the sword.
> 
> Is there an underlying problem with them that i am not aware of?


 
I've never seen a serious iaido person use one. 
I've never held one. 
I hear that they are good or hacking away at **** in the backyard but not for serious practice. 
Just what I've heard, but i have no personal experience with them.


----------



## Sukerkin

I have a matched daisho of Paul Chen live-blades (I refuse to call them shinken ).

They are servicable, bottom-end, blades for people not overly concerned with their katana-shaped objects being all that true to the 'original'.  I only used my Paul Shen katana regularly for about a year and the ito was horribly distorted and worn (compared to my Tozando Iaito, the ito of which has not moved a hair in all the years I've used it).


----------



## rocket999

Thank you for all the replies.  I have a bokken I practice with quite a bit.

I have a couple of questions.

First of all, I can't afford anything over $300.  I am looking for something I can use for occasional light cutting and for kata.

Now, keeping that in mind, would anyone recommend a good brand in that price range?  After doing bit of research, it seems that Musashi is nice in this price range.  Take for example the bamboo warrior katana.  It is a differentially hardened 1060 steel blade that is double pinned.  All the reviews say that is an amazing value.  Why is it so cheap?  I know people will say it is cheaply made, but how so?

What about a cold steel blade?  They are $299, and looking at the promotional videos they look like they should cost more.  Any thoughts on these?  Does anyone own one?  Would you recommend it?  I have heard they are slightly heavy, but is that is the only problem there is with it?  If it is, it looks really nice.

Any other brands you would recommend within my price range?  I know it is tricky to find a sword in this price range, but I have been reading reviews and it seems to be possible.

Thank your any recommendations.

Sam


----------



## Flying Crane

I own a Musashi, but I don't know which model it is.  I really only bought it because a local shop was closing its doors and was selling off their stock at a discount.  I figured, it would be kind of cool to have a "real" katana-style sword in my collection, and at the discount it made sense.  But I asked around here on MT and got some perspective, so I knew what I was buying. 

I do not have training with the katana, and I do not play with the sword.  It actually lurks in the back of my closet, boxed up.  It seldom sees the light of day.

The Musashis are made in China, and yes, they are "real" weapons.  But that doesn't mean they are real katana.  They are katana-like, real weapons.  The blade is real, it is sharp, it has toughness in its own way, and it can hurt you or someone else.  But it is not a true katana blade.  It's a discount blade.  It's not made to the same quality standards that a true katana is made, and it's made outside of Japan, by a not-Japanese swordmaker, so I believe that alone is enough to say that it is NOT a katana.

In my opinion, the Musashis are the bottom end of what you could call a "real" katana-like weapon.  Will it hold up to actual use?  I suspect so, for a while.  But I suspect that the quality of the materials in the grip and whatnot (I don't know the Japanese terms) will probably not wear nearly as well as a high-quality piece.  Japanese swords seem to have a fairly elaborate grip, when compared to a European sword.  This creates opportunity for parts to wear out or fail, so quality materials and workmanship becomes more important.

It's certainly got a full size tang, it's not a rat-tail or welded piece.  I doubt if it will snap or simply fly apart of you do kata practice, or some controlled cutting, tho I'd proceed with caution and work up to it gradually, so you don't place demands on it that it might not be up to.

The bottom line is, any long piece of steel with a sharp point and an edge can be a real weapon.  But there is a wide range of quality among weapons.  Some are cheap, others are expensive.  Some are made with high quality materials and a lot of time and effort and skill on the part of a skilled maker.  Others are slapped together quickly, without much regard to quality of assembly and fit and materials.

They can all kill somebody, including yourself if you are not careful or if you have an accident.

Any sword, even the best and the most expensive, can fail and can break or come apart, especially if it is abused or its maintenance was neglected, or it's used in a way for which it was not designed.  If it breaks or fails, somebody, including yourself or the guy standing next to you, or your pet Fido, or the neighbor's toddler, could get hurt, maimed, or killed.

I'm not sure there is a complete or exact answer to your question.  But maybe this will give you some perspective.


----------



## Ken Morgan

rocket999 said:


> It is a differentially hardened 1060 steel blade that is double pinned. All the reviews say that is an amazing value. Why is it so cheap? I know people will say it is cheaply made, but how so?
> 
> 
> Any other brands you would recommend within my price range? I know it is tricky to find a sword in this price range, but I have been reading reviews and it seems to be possible.


 
I worked in the steel business for 10 years, 1060 is nothing special, the edge will dull very quickly. A 1080/1090 is a much better choice, but more expensive.

You can be sure the blades are stamped out, ground and machine polished. Maybe even eltro-plated. The fittings will be the same, mass produced in China or some like place. 

For $300 I wouldn't buy anything. You may want to buy second hand, the drop out rate in the sword arts is huge, hence a great many almost new blades come up all the time.

Try the classified area at Sword forum http://forums.swordforum.com/


----------



## d1jinx

I would like a 10 Body sword one day 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





. Probably would cost a fortune though.


----------



## Sukerkin

From the JSA perspective, or at least that of this particular parctitioner, if you are looking for a live blade to do serious kata work with, rather than investigate 'test cutting' on an occasional basis, I would be looking for a price tag of around £1000 for the sword.  After all, I would not intend to be buying another one for the rest of my life and to go cheaper is a false economy in the long run.

There are bargains to be had, of course, if you happen to drop into the market at the right moment.  For example, I got my Tozando iaito for less than it's £650 price tag because they already had a blade the right size for me from a cancelled order.

In the end tho', cheap is cheap and there is no getting around that.

As a side note to *rocket*, you sound like you have your head screwed on, good sir (and please do not take this the wrong way for I mean no slight) but if you are going to study the sword, most especially if you are going to cut, do it properly, not as an adjunct to your karate.  If your karate sensei is also ranked in Iai or somesuch then that's a different matter - if he is not then he is really not suitably qualified to be getting his students whinging live steel around.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

If you have a booken then the next step would be to get a really good iaito.  Sukerkin has given you a good link to Tozando and their are several other dealers out there.  A decent Iaito would be in my opinion at least $400 and up with probably around $800 to $1,000 being pretty good.  Then after practicing with a good iaito eventually buy a good shinken with your teacher's recommendation.  Do not rush to playing around with a cheap live sword!  Work your way up to it!


----------



## rocket999

Ok then.  

I actually have a cheap bull blade already, but it is time to upgrade.

So, are there any good brands of iaitos in my price range?  Since I won't be striking anything with it, it seems like there wouldn't need to be as much worry about the blade.  It should be fine as long as it is full tang and decent quality.

Any recommended brands?

Sam


----------



## lklawson

d1jinx said:


> curious as to why no one mentioned any hanwei/ paul chen sword?  Reasonably priced and nicely built (I thought) but i have no real in depth experience with multiple cutting and demonstration with them.
> 
> I have only "wacked" at a thing or two, once or twice, but not enough to fully realize the reaction of the sword.
> 
> Is there an underlying problem with them that i am not aware of?


They're considered "Entry Level" and "Beater" swords.  They're not "traditionally made" and, because of Chinese manufacture, some people distrust them.  They're also not generally endorsed by Sensei's in japanese sword arts who, for varying reasons, usually have a preferred style or specific list of smiths/manufacturers.

The functionality of the Paul Chen swords really isn't at question for most people but many "serious" jsa students have quibbles with their weight, balance, and various dimensions and will pass over them for those reasons.  FWIW, other many other lower-cost factory made japanese sword makers have the same "problems" for the "serious student" including the likes of Cold Steel.  (The most charitable thing I've heard from "serious" jsa students about Cold Steel katanas is that they're "durable."  The most common description seems to be that "they're pigs".)  Even those few who will accept, reservedly, these factory made ken will usually stipulate that they should be reserved for only beginning students who can't yet afford something better and are not yet skilled enough to "feel" the difference of a good sword and a beater.

Proponents of these swords usually say that this response from "serious" jsa students is "snobbery" but, while perhaps true for some, certainly doesn't cover the breadth of the issues which divide opinion.

Personally, I would recommend the old standby "Ask your Sensei."  You certainly don't want to spend money even on an "inexpensive entry level factory made" sword, like Paul Chen stuff, only to find your Sensei gives you a sour look and orders it out of his dojo.  Those "inexpensive" are sill a couple hundred.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


----------



## jks9199

rocket999 said:


> Ok then.
> 
> I actually have a cheap bull blade already, but it is time to upgrade.
> 
> So, are there any good brands of iaitos in my price range?  Since I won't be striking anything with it, it seems like there wouldn't need to be as much worry about the blade.  It should be fine as long as it is full tang and decent quality.
> 
> Any recommended brands?
> 
> Sam


First -- I'm going to be blunt.  WHO says it's time to upgrade?  Are you training with an instructor who really knows the sword -- or somebody who's picked up a few things here and there?  There's a world of difference... and your teacher really should know a few sources for you to find a decent blade to train with.

Now...  if you can afford $300 today, why not wait a month or two longer, and save that $300, and add to it, so that you can afford a $400 to $500 blade?  That's what knowledgeable people are telling you it would take for a bottom-tier workable blade.  This isn't something to go cheap on...  You'll not only not be able to train properly, but you'll endanger yourself and those around you.


----------



## MBuzzy

rocket999 said:


> Thank you for all the replies. I have a bokken I practice with quite a bit.
> 
> I have a couple of questions.
> 
> First of all, I can't afford anything over $300. I am looking for something I can use for occasional light cutting and for kata.
> 
> Now, keeping that in mind, would anyone recommend a good brand in that price range? After doing bit of research, it seems that Musashi is nice in this price range. Take for example the bamboo warrior katana. It is a differentially hardened 1060 steel blade that is double pinned. All the reviews say that is an amazing value. Why is it so cheap? I know people will say it is cheaply made, but how so?
> 
> What about a cold steel blade? They are $299, and looking at the promotional videos they look like they should cost more. Any thoughts on these? Does anyone own one? Would you recommend it? I have heard they are slightly heavy, but is that is the only problem there is with it? If it is, it looks really nice.
> 
> Any other brands you would recommend within my price range? I know it is tricky to find a sword in this price range, but I have been reading reviews and it seems to be possible.
> 
> Thank your any recommendations.
> 
> Sam


 
I'm sorry that we keep talking around your questions, but I just keep coming back to something here....Again - why does it have to be a live blade?  My honest suggestion is that if $300 is the most that you can afford - WAIT.  Think about it in economic terms....you spend $300 now for a subpar sword, which may be dangerous or have problems.  Lower quality steel isn't going to stand up as well to cutting and need to be replaced sooner.  Just wait, save for a few more months and get an $800 sword and make an exponential jump in quality.  You will be VERY glad that you did.

In my organization, it is such a big deal that you are only allowed to use swords from Federation approved forges.  They have forges that consistently supply bad swords, so they solved the problem...Your instructor will tell you when you're ready for a live blade and will help you buy it.  That is what you really need, an instructor (A SWORD instructor...not a TSD instructor who also happens to know some sword), who is experienced to guide you through this process.


----------



## jks9199

The teacher helping, along with Sukerkin's note about getting a deal brought something else to mind... 

Japanese swords aren't one-size-fits-all.  Ideally, you get a sword sized to you, with a grip length appropriate to your style.  A difference of an inch or two may be all it takes to be able to perform some techniques properly...  Again, a good teacher will know the blade length that's appropriate for you.


----------



## Brian R. VanCise

Okay,

If you are interested in a good iaito then Sukerkin has suggested 
www.tozando.com.  They are very well respected and I also know several people who are very happy with the iaito that they purchased through them.  Here is a direct link to their iaito:http://www.tozandoshop.com/category_s/40.htm  Understand that when converting from yen to dollars take the last two numbers off the back and move the decimal point two numerals forward.

¥45,920.00 roughly = $459.20


----------



## Flying Crane

links to my earlier threads asking a lot of the same questions...

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66226

http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=66046

maybe the info in these threads might be helpful.


----------



## Sukerkin

Good thinking, *FC*.  I was only pondering earlier that we had talked through the issues, regarding first sword purchases, before .


----------



## rocket999

jks9199 said:


> First -- I'm going to be blunt.  WHO says it's time to upgrade?  Are you training with an instructor who really knows the sword -- or somebody who's picked up a few things here and there?  There's a world of difference... and your teacher really should know a few sources for you to find a decent blade to train with.
> 
> Now...  if you can afford $300 today, why not wait a month or two longer, and save that $300, and add to it, so that you can afford a $400 to $500 blade?  That's what knowledgeable people are telling you it would take for a bottom-tier workable blade.  This isn't something to go cheap on...  You'll not only not be able to train properly, but you'll endanger yourself and those around you.



It's time to upgrade because my sword is a wall hanger (Since I found this out I haven't been using it).  

My instructor really does know the sword.

Why I was asking about the sharp blades is because it they are tough enough to withstand cutting, they are going to be fine for practice (which is why I asked about it for cutting).  If I were to practice with it I would dull the blade.  I have done this a few times, and the results are REALLY good.  Reading over the thread, I forgot to mention this!  

What I saw in those cheaper swords was a tough blade able to withstand accidental droppings or me hitting something by accident.  They are able to bend and return to straight and they are full tang and double pegged.  What I thought was that once I dull it, it would make a good durable practice sword.

Now what I have been asking in the later half of this thread is what brands you would recommend in this price range.  You are all just saying that I need to save up to over $500 for a good sword.  The thing is, I have seen about four reviews for this one low priced sword (the Musashi bamboo katana).  The have all used it for cutting water bottles and tatami mats and it has held up very well for them.  Since I am not going to be using it for cutting, it seems that it would hold up even better.

For any of you who have had a cheap sword:  Where are cheap swords prone to breakage?  Would the blade separate from the handle?  Would the blade break?  Pretty much everyone is saying that they are just cheap, but how so?

They are using it for cutting, and if it is tough enough for that, how could it not be for kata (especially when dulled)?  I don't want to come off as someone who doesn't want to listen to advice, but I forgot to add that I would be dulling the blade.  Sorry about that!!!  (for some reason I thought I had said that...)

I'm sure you will all have a lot to say about this...

Sam


----------



## Flying Crane

I'll take a stab at giving you some things to think about, tho I'm not an experienced katana swordsman.  So I could certainly be off on some things that I'll say.

First off, there are quite a large number of types of steel, each with it's own characteristics, meaning it's flexibility, ability to be hardened and take an edge, toughness, etc.  I do not believe there is any single type of steel that can be considered the best for a sword, in a purely objective way.  Modern steels can be manufactured with a high level of quality and consistency in the product, and if you know what you have and it offers the characteristics that you want, you can generally trust it for what it is.

Traditional katana were/are made with different types of steels layered together, to capitalize on their different properties.  This technique developed out of an era before modern foundries could produce the variety of high-quality steels available today.  The traditional method created a specific type of steel with specific characteristics that worked very well for a katana.  

I personally do not believe that it is an automatically "better" steel.  But it was made and used for a very specific purpose.

With swords coming out of Chinese forges, there is some notoriety for them not being consistent with quality of workmanship, as well as quality of steel.  I practice the Chinese arts, and Chinese sword techniques, and I'm amazed at the wide discrepancy between Chinese-made swords, all coming from the same factory.  Seems they slap together whatever might be handy at the moment.

You don't know just what kind of steel you've got there.  It might be good, or it might not.  Stainless steel is usually considered a poor choice for a sword blade.  The chrome content that makes it resist rusting also makes it somewhat brittle, and breaks up the grain of the steel.  This makes it prone to cracking and breaking it if you hit something with it.  I saw a TV commercial on the Shopping Network where they were selling some cheap wall-hangers that are typically made of stainless steel.  The guy grabbed on of the swords and banged it on a cutting board.  The blade snapped and flipped back, stabbing him in the arm.  

It doesn't have to be stainless to be bad.  Other types of steel might not be a good choice for a sword blade, or the hardening and tempering might not have been done properly which can leave it open to breaking or not performing as expected, or otherwise failing.  You often just can't be quite sure what you've got with a Chinese-made weapon.

When a sword fails, it can be a hazardous situation.

The other thing is the construction of the hilt.  Katana hilts are rather complex, compared to other types.  Youve got the wood core with the rayskin wrapping and the cloth wrapping over that, and it needs to be fitted tightly on the tang, with the guard and the collar that holds it in place, and the pegs that hold it all on the tang.  There's a lot of pieces there that need to fit tightly and smoothly together.  If they come lose, it can leave the blade loose in the handle. This can cause the hilt to wear out quickly and breakage to happen, which can lead to a blade flying out of the grip.  Poor workmanship or poor materials, or a poor fit in the hilt might not be obvious to someone lacking the experience to recognize them.  It might seem tight and strong, but it wears lose quickly because of poor quality materials, or workmanship.  Now you've got a blade with a loose hilt that is unuseable, and it'll cost you a lot more to have a new hilt made for your blade.  Shouldda just saved up for that better sword in the first place.

I rebuild Chinese style swords for Chinese martial arts (non-katana style), because most of those coming out or the Chinese factories are horribly constructed.  The hilts are very poorly assembled, and have all kinds of problems.  Nothing fits right, and everything is lose right out of the box.  So I started rebuilding my own hilts to fit onto a decent blade.  I've seen so many junk swords from China that I'm cautious of anything coming out of China, including the "better" Chinese katana clones like the Musashis, that arent necessarily obvious wall-hangers.

I like my Musashi for what it is and for what i paid for it, but I recognize that it should be considered to be one of the lowest of the "real" katana clones.  It's components are not obviously lose the way the typical other Chinese-made swords are.  But I can't state with any level of certainty that it's well-made, or that the quality of the materials is high, and that's enough to make me a bit nervous about them.

I use my other swords when practicing my Chinese sword techniques, and I don't use the Musashi.  It wouldn't be appropriate.  

But when the Zombie Apocalypse hits and all my friends gather at my place for arming, sure, I'll bust out the Musashis and hand them around as well, for the beheading of those who refuse to remain dead.  But other than that, I've got a healthy reluctance to push it much and risk going beyond its limits.

You are asking questions that might not have precise answers.  But hopefully this will give you some perspective.


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## Brian R. VanCise

Why go to all the trouble to by an inferior product with inferior workmanship and really inferior wrappings only to dull it down.  Save up and buy good quality iaito and when your ready a good quality shinken.  Trust me you will be glad you did and that you did not waste a ton of money of poorly made products.


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## lklawson

rocket999 said:


> The have all used it for cutting water bottles and tatami mats and it has held up very well for them.  Since I am not going to be using it for cutting, it seems that it would hold up even better.


Water bottles are not considered "proper" traditional tameshigiri targets.  Green Bamboo or appropriately selected and prepared tatami are the traditional targets (when convicted felons aren't available  ).

Don't misunderstand me, my personal position is that water bottles have a place in some kinds of test cutting for some purposes.  But they're not traditional JSA and I doubt you'll find *ANY* recognized JSA sensei who teaches tameshigiri with water bottles.  More likely a look of horror or distain.

Some few traditional JSA instructors will teach/use rolled sheets of paper or even cardboard tubes on rare exception.  But these are the exception rather than the norm.

The same goes for other kinds of popular test cutting media such as "pool noodles," various ballistic gel setups, actual meat, and even "armoured" targets which are gaining popularity with non-JSA (primarily WMA) communities.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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## Ken Morgan

I've been practising the JSA for 11 years now and I've done test cutting a total of 2 times.

I have no interest in it. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you a three foot long razor blade will cut through wet rolled up mats easily. I know for a fact that I can teach someone off the street how to do it in 20 minutes or so, its not a difficult skill to learn.

Tameshigiri makes one hell of a mess of the dojo, it scratches blades and is, as I've said boring, after the first couple of swings.

IMO


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## jks9199

rocket999 said:


> It's time to upgrade because my sword is a wall hanger (Since I found this out I haven't been using it).


So why would you want to buy another?  You've been advised that the odds of getting a decent sword in the price range you're talking are slim to nil.





> My instructor really does know the sword.


And he or she let you use a sword-like object rather than insisting on a proper sword?  What style of sword?  What is his or her background?  Because I think you're being sold a bill of goods -- especially if this instructor isn't providing you guidance on what sword to buy.  (By the way -- you don't have to answer those questions publicly... but if your instructor can't answer them for you... that's what we law enforcement types call a clue.)





> Why I was asking about the sharp blades is because it they are tough enough to withstand cutting, they are going to be fine for practice (which is why I asked about it for cutting).  If I were to practice with it I would dull the blade.  I have done this a few times, and the results are REALLY good.  Reading over the thread, I forgot to mention this!
> 
> What I saw in those cheaper swords was a tough blade able to withstand accidental droppings or me hitting something by accident.  They are able to bend and return to straight and they are full tang and double pegged.  What I thought was that once I dull it, it would make a good durable practice sword.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think you know half of what you think you do about swords.  You've jumbled and twisted criteria and concerns.
> 
> 
> 
> Now what I have been asking in the later half of this thread is what brands you would recommend in this price range.  You are all just saying that I need to save up to over $500 for a good sword.  The thing is, I have seen about four reviews for this one low priced sword (the Musashi bamboo katana).  The have all used it for cutting water bottles and tatami mats and it has held up very well for them.  Since I am not going to be using it for cutting, it seems that it would hold up even better.
> 
> For any of you who have had a cheap sword:  Where are cheap swords prone to breakage?  Would the blade separate from the handle?  Would the blade break?  Pretty much everyone is saying that they are just cheap, but how so?
> 
> They are using it for cutting, and if it is tough enough for that, how could it not be for kata (especially when dulled)?  I don't want to come off as someone who doesn't want to listen to advice, but I forgot to add that I would be dulling the blade.  Sorry about that!!!  (for some reason I thought I had said that...)
> 
> I'm sure you will all have a lot to say about this...
> 
> Sam
Click to expand...


Look, Cold Steel makes good blades.  But the honest truth is that about 2/3 of their products are quality imitations of what they are supposed to be.  They all cut... but that doesn't mean they are balanced properly or made in the same manner as the real item.  And none of their stuff is cheap!  Cutting videos only prove that the sword can go through that material.  They say nothing about how well the sword held up, or what shape it was in a day or two later... or if it really functioned the way it was supposed, or took too much muscle or the wrong leverage to do the cut.


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## lklawson

jks9199 said:


> Look, Cold Steel makes good blades.  But the honest truth is that about 2/3 of their products are quality imitations of what they are supposed to be.  They all cut... but that doesn't mean they are balanced properly or made in the same manner as the real item.  And none of their stuff is cheap!  Cutting videos only prove that the sword can go through that material.  They say nothing about how well the sword held up, or what shape it was in a day or two later... or if it really functioned the way it was supposed, or took too much muscle or the wrong leverage to do the cut.


Cold Steel's knives are good and have a good reputation.  Their swords seem to be hit-or-miss and most sword experts find them to be poorly balanced or have some other defect that prevents them from being as accurate as said expert requires.  Some of their western themed swords are considered "ok" but those are often reported to be too heavy, too thick, improperly tapered, or poorly balanced.  One western sword expert and researcher I know bought one of their military sabers (the 1890, ims) and disassembled, reground it to the proper taper, reset the angle of the tang, then remounted.  It's not a wholly different sword, but, as it came from the factory, it was not acceptable to him.  The quality of the steel and its heat-treat along with the serviceability of the fittings was acceptable, it was only in the execution of the parts and blade that he found flaw.

That seems to be the general feeling among sword experts on Cold Steel's sword offerings.

For myself, I do not believe that their western saber offerings are generally "historically inaccurate" in terms of weight, balance, and the like.  But, instead, would most closely represent the munitions grade, factory churned, swords that would have been issued to troopers or officers who could not afford to buy a "quality sword" in the period.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk


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