# "American" Karate -- Just what is it?



## SPX (Jan 1, 2012)

So I have seen the term "American Karate" bandied about for years, but having never trained at a school that advertised themselves as such, I've never fully understood it.  So what exactly is "American" Karate and why would karate ever be labeled so?


----------



## Grenadier (Jan 1, 2012)

That's a question that will have a very, very board range of answers.  

I'll give a couple, based on what I've seen in my lifetime. 

1) American Karate can simply mean a system of Karate that was formed in the USA, by either modifying or combining various martial arts.  This use of the term does not convey any level of quality, or lack thereof, when it comes to describing the system or its methods.  

There are quite a few well known figures whose Karate can certainly be classifed under this category.  For example, you have Robert A. Trias, who formed his own system of Karate called "Shuri Ryu," and as a result, made a Karate system in America that utilized a lot of the techniques in Okinawan systems, while also blending in a good bit of the Japanese Karate systems.  While some may call it an Okinawan Karate system, it can also be called an American system as well.  It's a well-respected system, and has produced a good number of excellent Karate-Ka.  

You also have Ed Parker, who created the American Kenpo system.  It still utilizes much of the Chinese Kenpo, yet all terms are taught in English.  This system has also produced a good number of excellent Karate-Ka.  


2) It could be a derogatory term, used to describe various Karate schools in the USA, that have de-emphasized traditional methods, although it's more likely to refer to those schools that become very lax in standards, essentially teaching junk martial arts.  An unfair label, of course, but I'm sure that other countries have their own names for nonstandard or substandard schools.


----------



## SPX (Jan 1, 2012)

Thanks for the reply.

I remember about 20 years or so ago there were a chain of schools in the Memphis, TN area . . . Don Crenshaw's USA Karate.  Curious to see what would come up, I googled his name and found that the chain apparently still exists (though under other leadership at this point, it appears).  

I looked through the website and found this paragraph:



> With over 22 years experience in the mid-south our  schools have  developed a System known as &#8220;American Karate."  This  system utilizes the  three ranges of combat. The first range is  punching and kicking, we  teach an exciting combination of Boxing and  kickboxing to enhance the  student&#8217;s physical ability. The second  range is close quarter combat we  teach a traditional Karate that  utilizes holds and grabs along with  stances and footwork, and finally  the third range which is ground  fighting, we teach a combination of  grappling and judo.



Then I looked up American Karate on Wikipedia and found this, which I thought was interesting:



> *American Karate* is generic term usually referring to hybrid  martial arts systems that employs cross-training throughout many of the  traditional Asian styles. . .
> 
> Critics suggest it is a watered-down version of authentic styles  popularized by Americans who never stayed with their original teachers  long enough to truly understand the intricacies of the art.  They went out on their own and claimed to practice an &#8220;American&#8221;  approach to karate but in reality were only able to teach the most  rudimentary techniques.
> 
> Supporters, on the other hand, claim that Asian instructors are bound  by traditions that are both antiquated and impractical in the modern  world. Americans, the argument goes, are open to discovering modern  methods of training without misplaced loyalties to a certain nationalistic approach, such as the Japanese vs. Okinawan martial styles.



Some other investigation seems to suggest that "American Karate" is often associated with sporting karate activities, especially "tricking" and combining acrobatics with fancy kicks and other techniques.

I figured I would ask around on here to see how others define, or think of, American Karate, and to see if anyone had any experience with a school that labeled itself as such.


----------



## Grenadier (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> I remember about 20 years or so ago there were a chain of schools in the Memphis, TN area . . . Don Crenshaw's USA Karate.  Curious to see what would come up, I googled his name and found that the chain apparently still exists (though under other leadership at this point, it appears).



Don Crenshaw still seems to own some schools.  I'm guessing that he might have sold / given ownership to his senior instruction staff, though.   

They term of "American Karate" is another one of the very many versions out there.  This particular system seems to be a mixture of boxing, judo, wrestling, and Shotokan Karate.  Not unusual, since a lot of those who teach their own version of "American Karate" combine multiple arts.  

I cannot, however, comment on the quality of the system, or the proficiency of the instructors, without having more first-hand knowledge of their operations.  



> Some other investigation seems to suggest that "American Karate" is often associated with sporting karate activities, especially "tricking" and combining acrobatics with fancy kicks and other techniques.



It all depends on the type of sporting karate activities.  For example, the USA-NKF models itself after what goes on with the traditional WKF.  For all intents and purposes, it could be argued that in some cases, the USA-NKF models itself after the rest of the world.  

Traditional competition occurs, where acrobatics and flash aren't going to win, but rather, solid, fundamentally good technique will win the day.  For that matter, at the regional level, a lot of those tournaments are USA-NKF regional qualifiers, but are open to other systems.  It's no surprise that the characters who go running around, jumping and spinning repeatedly in the air, screaming all sorts of war cries, and swinging around ultralight balsawood weapons, are going to finish last each time.  

Or, those who have poor control of their bodies, and cannot generate any real power using their lower bodies to drive the upper body (as it should be), are going to be seen as having poor fundamental technique.  

As for other organizations?  Your mileage may vary, of course.  Some cater to the XMA crowd, where LED-lit acrylic weapons are the norm in the weapons kata divisions, or where freestyle kata might be performed.  Others model themselves in a similar manner as the USA-NKF does, and some might fall somewhere in between.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm not going to get into a 'better' or 'worse' argument in this thread, and I'd respectfully suggest that no one else should either.  As noted, there is no one definition for the term.  I've competed against some students of "American Karate" and they were talented competitors at point-sparring.  I cannot speak to any of their other abilities or lack of same, nor do I intend to.

This is the group I competed against:

http://www.dtkarate.com/about_us.html

I am an Isshin-Ryu student, not American Karate.  But it is what it is.  We all have our own methods and traditions.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Grenadier said:


> It's no surprise that the characters who go running around, jumping and spinning repeatedly in the air, screaming all sorts of war cries, and swinging around ultralight balsawood weapons, are going to finish last each time.



LOL.  Indeed.

For what it's worth, I actually enjoy watching those guys from time to time.  They definitely have a certain skillset that I don't have and it's impressive to see.  After a while though it all starts to look the same and at the end of the day you walk away with the feeling that it's mostly just fluff.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I'm not going to get into a 'better' or 'worse' argument in this thread, and I'd respectfully suggest that no one else should either.  As noted, there is no one definition for the term.  I've competed against some students of "American Karate" and they were talented competitors at point-sparring.  I cannot speak to any of their other abilities or lack of same, nor do I intend to.
> 
> This is the group I competed against:
> 
> ...




Was this recent that you competed against these guys?

I took a look at the site and one thing I noticed was that it never really talks about the kind of karate that they teach.  And the page about the adult program doesn't mention karate at all except in the name of the school, and instead focuses on their "Self-Defense" program, which appears to be a combination of Krav Maga, Muay Thai and BJJ.  I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> Was this recent that you competed against these guys?



Yes, just a few months ago.  They sponsored a tournament in Ohio, and I drove down for it.  It was pretty small; held in a local church.



> I took a look at the site and one thing I noticed was that it never really talks about the kind of karate that they teach.  And the page about the adult program doesn't mention karate at all except in the name of the school, and instead focuses on their "Self-Defense" program, which appears to be a combination of Krav Maga, Muay Thai and BJJ.  I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense.



I told you, this is not the place to disrespect other styles.  Please stop that.  We don't 'war' here, call out other styles, or put them down.

I spoke with Dan Turner, who hosted the tournament; good guy.  He did not name a style, he just calls his karate 'American Karate' and leaves it at that.  I don't feel qualified - and I doubt you are either - to tell whether or not it is 'worthy' as a self-defense style.

As I mentioned, I am a student of a traditional Okinawan style of karate.  There is a definite lineage, distinct teachings, and one more or less knows what one is getting with this sort of training.  It's much more based on the person teaching when the training is not based on a given style or lineage; it could be good, bad, indifferent.  But then again, so are many styles of martial arts; even the style is a 'known' style with a lineage, there is no guarantee that a given instructor is up to par; or that a given student can learn what is being taught.

Here in the Detroit area, there are many styles taught.  Some of them are Okinawan, or Korean, or Chinese traditional type styles.  Some are clearly mixtures of other styles.  Some I have no idea whatsoever; I suspect they're more-or-less made up by their instructors.  However, it's not for me to say if they are or are not effective in teaching self-defense; I suspect the proof is in the pudding.  In my experience competing against students of these training facilities, I've learned to respect their sparring abilities.  Some say that this is not self-defense, and that's certainly true.  I can only comment, however, on what I have experienced.

My recommendation is that if a person prefers to learn a definite style, they should do that, and not waste a lot of time and energy trying to apply metrics to unknowns.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I told you, this is not the place to disrespect other styles.  Please stop that.  We don't 'war' here, call out other styles, or put them down.



I don't think I did that at all.

I looked at the website and made an observation.  I wasn't saying anything about the style at all . . . I was asking a question.  Do you feel that my question was not legitimate?



> I don't feel qualified - and I doubt you are either - to tell whether or not it is 'worthy' as a self-defense style.



I said that I wonder if THEY feel that way, considering in their adult self-defense program they appear to go to other arts instead of sticking with their karate.  It's all in the link that you posted.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> I don't think I did that at all.



You would be mistaken.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Look.

You posted a link.  If you click on the link and then click on "Adult Martial Arts" then you get a paragraph about how their program will increase your fitness level and offer self-defense skills.

Then it says:



> We're proud to offer our   "Rock Your World" curriculum, where you can learn these valuable   skills:
> 
> FANTASTIC SELF DEFENSE- You'll learn real world  tactics to defend   yourself, and your family, with our Krav Maga  program. The program layout allows   for quick development of the skills  you need for this purpose.
> 
> ...



The only place Karate is mentioned on the whole page is in the name of the school.

So I asked, does that mean that they do not feel that their karate (or perhaps karate in general) is good for self-defense?  That's a question--not a statement--based upon an observation about a link that YOU posted.  I don't see why it's a problem that I would make that observation.  If you had never competed against these guys and just stumbled across the page would YOU not wonder the same thing?  

If you interpreted what I said as any kind of attack, then you misunderstood.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> So I asked, does that mean that they do not feel that their karate (or perhaps karate in general) is good for self-defense?



That is *not* a question, just because you put a question mark at the end of it.  That is a statement of belief.  You're making a statement and looking for a challenge. And I told you, we do not do that here.



> That's a question--not a statement--based upon an observation about a link that YOU posted.  I don't see why it's a problem that I would make that observation.  If you had never competed against these guys and just stumbled across the page would YOU not wonder the same thing?



As I stated, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that 'question'.  Why don't you call Dan Turner up and ask him if this is something you feel you need to know?  All I can comment upon is what I have experienced; I have sparred some of his students, and they were good at it.  That's all I know.  I can not tell from a few lines of boilerplate text whether or not they teach effective self-defense in their dojo; and neither can you.



> If you interpreted what I said as any kind of attack, then you misunderstood.



I was born at night, but not last night.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Okay, two things:

1.  It could be a school that teaches karate for sport and other stuff for self-defense.  That's what I was getting at.

2.  I'm going to check out this school next week and, as long there are not glaring problems, will probably be joining. . .

http://pinnacle.hurdman.org/home

. . . so I obviously don't have a bias against schools that place a high degree of emphasis on sport karate or (check their schedule) schools that have a self-defense program that is separate from their karate program.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> Okay, two things:
> 
> 1.  It could be a school that teaches karate for sport and other stuff for self-defense.  That's what I was getting at.



No, that is not what you were getting at.  You said _"I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense."_ Not _"do they teach karate,"_ but _"is their self-defense training sub-par?"_  And as I stated now three times, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that question based on their website.

It could be that we're just misunderstanding each other.  I do not think there is anything that can be gleaned from a martial arts training facility's website.  They may state their style and lineage; or they may not.  And whether nor not they claim proficiency in this or that style or method, that doesn't mean they have it.  And if they have it, it doesn't mean they can teach it.  And if they can teach it, it doesn't mean a given student will learning effectively.

I have learned by simply sparring in point competitions that it doesn't really matter what the 'style' taught happens to be; or what their website looks like.  It's all down to the quality of the instruction and the ability of the students, and that's not to be found on a website.  If you're asking if a given school is more sports or self-defense oriented based on what's on their website, you might be in for a bit of a surprise.

The website you linked to lists the instructors as Yip Man.  It also does not list any given style that I can see, nor does it state what styles the instructors are trained or certified in.  I found one of the instructors on Facebook; he's got a lot of 'affiliations', but no particular style listed, no instructors, no lineage, no certifications.  But again, and in my opinion, that doesn't mean all that much.  As you indicated, you have to go and see.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> No, that is not what you were getting at.  You said _"I wonder if that means that they feel like their karate is not up to par for self-defense."_ Not _"do they teach karate,"_ but _"is their self-defense training sub-par?"_  And as I stated now three times, neither you nor I are qualified to answer that question based on their website.



I didn't say either of us could answer it.  Call it rhetorical.

And I never asked, "is their self-defense training sub-par."  I said I wonder if they feel that their karate is sub-par for self-defense . . . which is why they have an entirely separate course specifically labeled as a "self-defense" course that utilizes the arts that are listed:  Krav Maga, Muay Thai, BJJ.

Really the question is simply:  Why?  Why have this separate SD program instead of teaching their karate for SD purposes?  Is it because they feel like this other combination is styles is more appropriate?  Is it because they feel like it will attract more adult students by teaching these other styles, and therefore increase revenue?  

Obviously neither you nor I know.  But this is a discussion board, so I was making an observation and hoping to discuss it.  I thought it would be interesting to hear different posters' opinions on why they feel that such a decision would be made.  

Maybe I should reword the question:

If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training?  Why or why not?



Bill Mattocks said:


> It could be that we're just misunderstanding each other.



Well I know that I certainly feel misunderstood, and to be honest, after having made attempts to explain myself, it's starting to insult me that you keep telling me what it is that I mean and don't mean.




Bill Mattocks said:


> The website you linked to lists the instructors as Yip Man.



Yeah, I don't know what that's all about.  Or the Latin.  I assume it's some kind of mistake.



Bill Mattocks said:


> It also does not list any given style that I can see, nor does it state what styles the instructors are trained or certified in.



I'm not finding certifications etc.  But as for styles, it does say:

"Our school offers training in Tae Kwon Do (a Korean art), Shotokan (a  Japanese art), TMA (a self-defense art), American Freestyle (that's the  kicks & tricks of the movies!), weapons training, and mixed martial  arts (grappling or ground fighting)."

It also says, for whatever it's worth:  ". . . we are currently ranked as the #1 Sport Karate School in the US by NBL  (National Blackbelt League) and the SKIL (Sport Karate International  League) Amateur Circuit."

As for the latter statement, I can at least say that the school came highly recommended to me by an acquaintance on another forum.  That's how I found out about it in the first place.



Bill Mattocks said:


> As you indicated, you have to go and see.



Indeed.  And I should be doing that either this week or next.  I intend to sit down and have a long conversation with them and should get some answers on a lot of these concerns.


----------



## kenpo tiger (Jan 2, 2012)

I've found throughout my martial arts journey that it is extremely important to know that your master instructor is still training and learning new things.  That said, if the art s/he teaches is a *fit* for you, it doesn't really matter what *style* it is -- as Bill stated above: "it doesn't really matter what the 'style' taught happens to be; or what  their website looks like.  It's all down to the quality of the  instruction and the ability of the students, and that's not to be found  on a website.  If you're asking if a given school is more sports or  self-defense oriented based on what's on their website, you might be in  for a bit of a surprise."

Some people train in martial arts in order to compete.  Others train for self-confidence and self-fulfillment.  
Only you can judge if you're getting out of it what you put into it.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

BTW, just another observation:

Turner's school must be affiliated with a group/org that has come up with a standardized curriculum/programs.

Compare:


http://www.dtkarate.com

and

http://www.karatememphis.com

I knew I had seen all that somewhere before.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> Maybe I should reword the question:
> 
> If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training?  Why or why not?



Me?  No.  In our school, there is only Isshin-Ryu karate.  Our dojo does not have any emphasis on competition, although some of our students (like me) like to compete.  It is not a requirement; sparring for one-point competitions is not specifically taught.  We only teach Isshin-Ryu.  What would *I* want to teach?  No clue.  Isshin-Ryu, I guess.  Doesn't matter much, I won't live long enough to reach instructor status.



> Well I know that I certainly feel misunderstood, and to be honest, after having made attempts to explain myself, it's starting to insult me that you keep telling me what it is that I mean and don't mean.



Your wording is not unlike those who have come here in the past and immediately started up by trying to get others to slam this style or that school.  You're new, so you have no track record.  All I can say is that we don't do that here.  But since you're new, you probably did not know how many trolls come trolling around making "XYZ art is really a scam, huh?" or "I think sport karate isn't really karate, what do you think?"  When I start reading threads like that, I pretty much know where it's going.  If you're not one of those sorts, then I apologize.  But you sure came off that way.



> Yeah, I don't know what that's all about.  Or the Latin.  I assume it's some kind of mistake.



I assumed it's a boilerplate website for generic 'karate schools' and the owner is still in the process of filling in the blanks.  But that's kind of what I mean; words on a web page mean pretty much nothing at all.  Anyone can claim anything.



> I'm not finding certifications etc.  But as for styles, it does say:
> 
> "Our school offers training in Tae Kwon Do (a Korean art), Shotokan (a  Japanese art), TMA (a self-defense art), American Freestyle (that's the  kicks & tricks of the movies!), weapons training, and mixed martial  arts (grappling or ground fighting)."



Yes, I saw that after I posted.  They still aren't saying what it is that qualifies them to teach these arts.  And if you want my *personal* opinion, few people of a young age are qualified to teach one of the arts above; if a person is claiming to be qualified to teach them all and they are not on social security, I tend to doubt that.  But that's me.  Nothing means anything except the actual quality of the instruction.  My inner BS detector would be staying away from that place like the plague.  But that's me.  Again, my opinion holds no weight; I do not know those people, I can't offer any useful opinion on their skill level or abilities.



> It also says, for whatever it's worth:  ". . . we are currently ranked as the #1 Sport Karate School in the US by NBL  (National Blackbelt League) and the SKIL (Sport Karate International  League) Amateur Circuit."



Yes, for whatever that's worth.



> As for the latter statement, I can at least say that the school came highly recommended to me by an acquaintance on another forum.  That's how I found out about it in the first place.



That's one way to get a recommendation.  Of course, since you haven't trained with this person, I presume, it's still not terribly useful in real world terms.  You'd be amazed how many martial artists on forums don't train, or stopped training after 3 months but still feel the need to hang out and offer advice.



> Indeed.  And I should be doing that either this week or next.  I intend to sit down and have a long conversation with them and should get some answers on a lot of these concerns.



Best way to do it.  Good luck in your search.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> BTW, just another observation:
> 
> Turner's school must be affiliated with a group/org that has come up with a standardized curriculum/programs.
> 
> ...



Yes, that does not surprise me at all.  Again, doesn't mean much;  I only know that his students that I sparred with could hold their own.  I have no idea what other credentials Dan Turner has or how good of a SD or other sort of martial arts instructor he is; I can only comment on what I've seen.

My personal preference is for a traditional Okinawan karate style; but that's just personal preference.  Doesn't mean that much.

EDIT: This is *my* dojo where I am a student:

http://hollowaysisshinryu.com/instructors/

My instructors have very real credentials, earned from people who are well-known and respected throughout Isshin-Ryu - that's just one of the reasons why I tend to prefer a traditional Okinawan style; no one can fake their credentials; we're too small and everyone knows who walks the walk and who talks the talk.   On the other hand, I could make a website and claim the same things; they'd be lies, but I could claim them.  And I might be a halfway decent instructor even if I was lying about my credentials or just flat-out didn't have any; or I might suck as an instructor even with real credentials from a respected lineage.  There just isn't any way of telling anything from a website.

But one clue; look at my instructor's bio.  It's very specific.  Not 'winner of many competitions,' but which ones, when.  All verifiable.  I get a little hinky when I read "winner of many tournaments."  Really?  Which ones?  When?  Where can I find that information?  Promoted to X dan by X sensei?  Great? When, where?  Anyone can claim anything; but people who are specific about it tend to gain my trust a little more easily.  None of which translated to teaching or fighting ability, it just goes to initial credibility.


----------



## Kong Soo Do (Jan 2, 2012)

Perhaps one way to look at it is that the term 'Karate' is generic.  To specify the type of Karate being taught we have further identifications such as;

Shotokan Karate
Shito Ryu Karate
Uechi Ryu Karate
Goju Ryu Karate
Shuri Te Karate and etc.

Using the identifier of 'American' or 'USA' can simply be looked upon as an identifier of a specific system (outline, goals, philosophy etc).  As mentioned in another thread in this section, Okinawan Karate can be broken down into tree distinct branches of lineage (at least).  We have Shuri though Itosu Sensei, Uechi through Uechi Sensei and Naha (Goju) through Higashionna Sensei.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanryo_HigashionnaIt seems a natural process for at least some senior students to go on to add, delete or change the art and recognize it under a different label.  I would suspect American Karate is no different.

As with anything, the quality is in the instructor and the student(s).


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Me?  No.  In our school, there is only Isshin-Ryu karate.  Our dojo does not have any emphasis on competition, although some of our students (like me) like to compete.  It is not a requirement; sparring for one-point competitions is not specifically taught.  We only teach Isshin-Ryu.  What would *I* want to teach?  No clue.  Isshin-Ryu, I guess.  Doesn't matter much, I won't live long enough to reach instructor status.



I think it's an interesting question.  

I had a conversation with a tang soo do instructor a little while back and he said that he felt TSD is a fine art for self-defense, but if someone came to him and said they were interested in TSD and their main reason was to learn to fight then he'd probably suggest boxing instead.  His reasoning was that TMAs offer fighting skills, but perhaps they are even better at imparting a certain philosophy, a tradition, discipline and other such benefits.  If you just want to learn to fight or learn self-defense, and these other things are not important to you, then there are probably better, more-streamlined styles that will get you where you want to go in a shorter period of time.

If self-defense was my only goal then I would probably not be looking to join a karate school.  So I guess I agree with the above perspective.  But the tradition, links to Asian culture, and sport opportunities are important to me.  

In any case, that's my thoughts, and I was just curious about others' thoughts.  Thanks for yours.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Your wording is not unlike those who have come here in the past and immediately started up by trying to get others to slam this style or that school.  You're new, so you have no track record.  All I can say is that we don't do that here.  But since you're new, you probably did not know how many trolls come trolling around making "XYZ art is really a scam, huh?" or "I think sport karate isn't really karate, what do you think?"  When I start reading threads like that, I pretty much know where it's going.  If you're not one of those sorts, then I apologize.  But you sure came off that way.



I understand.  There actually was a time when I was a lot less tolerant.  I would've had a negative attitude toward "sport" martial arts, toward XMA kind of stuff, toward stop-point sparring, etc.  But I've come to realize that all of these things can have merit and, at the end of the day, if someone enjoys doing them then that's the important thing.

Take XMA as an example.  Nothing could be farther from a martial arts oriented activity that is useless for self-defense than XMA, but a lot of things in life that are fun and enriching--basketball, watching a good movie, gardening--have no value for self-defense.  The truth is that most of us will go our entire lives without ending up in a self-defense situation.  Considering that whatever martial art you choose is something you're going to have to do every week--perhaps even every day--then it better be something that is fun for you.

I guess all that is to say that no, I wasn't trying to cause trouble.  I was just asking a question that I was curious about and that I was hoping would generate some discussion and keep the thread going.




Bill Mattocks said:


> I assumed it's a boilerplate website for generic 'karate schools' and the owner is still in the process of filling in the blanks.



Hmm, I hadn't thought of that.  But now that you mentioned it you're probably right.




Bill Mattocks said:


> My inner BS detector would be staying away from that place like the plague.



If I just stumbled across the website, then my reaction would be similar.  But I was on another forum and was talking about the kind of competition sparring I was interested in and someone responded that I would probably want to look into a school that competes in NBL and NASKA-style competitions.  I said that I wasn't familiar with those organizations and didn't know of any such schools in my area.  He said he would contact a friend and make an inquiry for me . . . then the next day he came back with two "excellent suggestions":  this school and another one that's too far away.

But as we've already said, I need to go check it out, which I intend to do.  I'll report back afterward.



Bill Mattocks said:


> That's one way to get a recommendation.  Of course, since you haven't trained with this person, I presume, it's still not terribly useful in real world terms.  You'd be amazed how many martial artists on forums don't train, or stopped training after 3 months but still feel the need to hang out and offer advice.



This guy is an ATA TKD school owner/instructor.  And I know that the ATA does not have a great reputation, but he as an individual at least seemed quite knowledgeable about the world of sport karate.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> Best way to do it.  Good luck in your search.



Thanks.


----------



## Buka (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> So I have seen the term "American Karate" bandied about for years, but having never trained at a school that advertised themselves as such, I've never fully understood it.  So what exactly is "American" Karate and why would karate ever be labeled so?



"American Karate" came about the same way as every other Martial Art style came about. Students who trained a long time in an art went on to teach their version of that art. Along the way changes were made, new terms were used, different names adopted. In the case of American Karate, soldiers in the United States Armed Forces returned from abroad, brought with them what they learned and American Karate was bron.

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

From what I've gathered, though, there's more to it than that.  If an American comes from Japan having learned Shotokan but teaches it the same way it was taught to him, then that's an American teaching karate . . . not American Karate.

As the Wikipedia article I quoted mentioned, it seems that with those who term what they do "American" Karate there is a foundational difference in philosophy and, often, techniques from more traditional styles.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 2, 2012)

SPX said:


> From what I've gathered, though, there's more to it than that.  If an American comes from Japan having learned Shotokan but teaches it the same way it was taught to him, then that's an American teaching karate . . . not American Karate.
> 
> As the Wikipedia article I quoted mentioned, it seems that with those who term what they do "American" Karate there is a foundational difference in philosophy and, often, techniques from more traditional styles.



I appreciate your comments.  Sorry I came off spring-loaded by your initial statements, I apologize.  I suspect that many systems that do not claim a traditional lineage are trying to intentionally teach the basics that are similar to all Okinawan/Japanese empty-hand styles and just not include the traditions, learning Japanese, bowing, this that and the other;  if their teaching is good, I can't see how that hurts anyone to learn it that way.  Me, I like the tradition and using Japanese terms and so on.  So everybody has to find their own path to walk I guess.  And I know that many dojos make sport karate a big part of their training; again, to each their own.  I like to compete, but I'm not a fanatic about it; I don't join the 'circuits' but just go to competitions when it's convenient or they're interesting.  In our dojo, almost no one competes, and that's cool.  We're just not that into it.  One man's meat, another man's poison, etc.  Anyway, welcome to MT.


----------



## SPX (Jan 2, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I appreciate your comments.  Sorry I came off spring-loaded by your initial statements, I apologize.



Thanks, and, in the parlance of the times, it's all good in the hood.



Bill Mattocks said:


> I suspect that many systems that do not claim a traditional lineage are trying to intentionally teach the basics that are similar to all Okinawan/Japanese empty-hand styles and just not include the traditions, learning Japanese, bowing, this that and the other;  if their teaching is good, I can't see how that hurts anyone to learn it that way.  Me, I like the tradition and using Japanese terms and so on.  So everybody has to find their own path to walk I guess.  And I know that many dojos make sport karate a big part of their training; again, to each their own.  I like to compete, but I'm not a fanatic about it; I don't join the 'circuits' but just go to competitions when it's convenient or they're interesting.  In our dojo, almost no one competes, and that's cool.  We're just not that into it.  One man's meat, another man's poison, etc.



Yes, I suppose so.

The question about "American Karate" first arose, in my own mind, while researching the history of kickboxing, focusing especially on the "full contact" ruleset.  That is, the ruleset under which guys like Bill Wallace, Joe Lewis, Steve Vick, and Dennis Alexio fought under.  This lead to some research on the evolution of martial arts in America . . . how they got here, what came of it.

It was also inspired by one of those strange memories that people sometimes have . . . things that seem random and inconsequential but are lodged in your mind nonetheless.  I remember being quite young (maybe 10? . . . I'm 30 now) and going with my dad to Red Lobster and passing by a karate school that advertised itself as American Karate.  Even then I thought that was odd and for whatever reason I still remember it.

Personally, I've always preferred a more traditional approach, just as a matter of course.  

I was originally looking at this place, a very traditional wado-ryu school:

http://wado-institute.com

But I really don't think it's what I'm wanting.  And honestly, it kind of bothers me that I'm not totally jazzed about a totally traditional approach, but the truth is that I'm not.  The fact of the matter is that I think I would have more fun at a sport oriented school that integrated more than just karate into their program, and so that's what I'm pursuing right now.  




Bill Mattocks said:


> Anyway, welcome to MT.



Thanks a bunch.


----------



## punisher73 (Jan 3, 2012)

As I have often quoted from my old roommate in college..."Everyone sucks to somebody else".

Find what YOU want and do that. Martial arts are like ice cream, you can't argue that Vanilla is better than Chocolate or any other flavor. It is based on personal taste and what YOU like and want.

Modern eclectic approaches bash older traditional approaches because they stick to old tradition from an asian country and not adapt to how things are done in the US (or wherever)
Traditional approaches bash newer approaches because they didnt' stick to traditional things and missed the deeper applications etc.
Okinawans bash each other as to who really learned the "secrets" and deeper meanings of the art. In fact, I just recently read an article in CFA magazine by a high ranking holder of a certain lineage and was talking about an instructor who claimed to learn some of their style before starting his own and he questioned how much he could have really learned etc and that many Okinawans made up their own karate after the war to make money off of the GI's. Going back to the early days, you find Motobu and Funakoshi trading barbs about the quality of their karate.

And so on and so forth. Seriously, you can find almost every art on the planet being bashed by another art due to what IT percieves as the important things. None of that matters if YOU are happy with what YOU do.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 3, 2012)

And for what it's worth (this is not bashing), sport karate today is not much like the competitive karate of the 1960's in the USA.  Point-sparring is a whole new beast, and it's not much like karate or self-defense; the techniques just don't apply.  You can win with point-sparring techniques that would literally get you demolished if you tried them in a self-defense situation.  Unlike, say, a boxer, who could probably do just fine in a street fight, a point-fighter may well apply techniques that score points in a tournament and get creamed by a street fighter.

There are other types of karate sparring, as some have mentioned.  But point-sparring is prevalent.  I do it myself, and I like it, but I also have to remember it's not what I'm taught in the dojo; this is something very different.  If you like sport karate, then by all means go for it.  And as I've mentioned, I've competed against guys from all different styles, from TKD to Isshin-Ryu to Kung Fu, to you name it; they all did well; it's not the style, it's the fighter.

But when you mentioned people like Joe Lewis, etc, I thought I should mention it ain't like that no more.  Those days are over.


----------



## punisher73 (Jan 3, 2012)

I remember having a discussion about karate applications and "working" or not.  This person made a comment that a particular style of karate wouldn't "work".  I asked him, why he felt that and he stated that it wouldn't work in a tournament.  He was partially right, the style in question was a close in style with emphasis on self-defense.  But, he went on to explain that there was no jumping backfist to the top of the head like in tournaments.  Huh?  Yep, you are right.  What I do, will not work for what you want it to do.


----------



## SPX (Jan 3, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> You can win with point-sparring techniques that would literally get you demolished if you tried them in a self-defense situation.



I've seen this.  Personally, I think techniques like the jumping back fist should not score, or should score only a fraction of a point, because they're just kind of silly.  When I was much younger I used to be part of a TKD org that used a stop-point format and any time someone would get me with a technique like that I thought it was ridiculous.  Even as a kid I realized it was cheap.

The actual fighting benefits gained through stop-point sparring probably really lie in learning how to avoid attacks and counter-attack without getting hit.  I imagine it also is useful for developing explosiveness and an ability to get in and out very quickly.  I could certainly see both of these qualities as being very useful in a self-defense situation.  

I will also say that I know some guys have been able to take stop-point competition experience and parlay it into success as legit kickboxers.

One example would be Raymond Daniels.  You may already be familiar with him, but here's a couple of full matches:



















Bill Mattocks said:


> There are other types of karate sparring, as some have mentioned.



Personally, what I'm most interested in is continuous point sparring, like ITF TKD's format.  I understand that sport karate orgs like the NBL and NASKA now have divisions for continuous sparring, as does the IKF, calling it point kickboxing.  




Bill Mattocks said:


> But when you mentioned people like Joe Lewis, etc, I thought I should mention it ain't like that no more.  Those days are over.



Oh yeah, I know.  I just like history and am interested in the history of how martial arts in America have developed, and the evolution from early point sparring to "full-contact karate" is particularly fascinating.  I'm actually supposed to be talking with an official with the ISKA in the next week or so about how the PKA came to be and how it gave birth to other kickboxing orgs like the ISKA.  Should be very interesting.


----------



## SPX (Jan 3, 2012)

punisher73 said:


> And so on and so forth. Seriously, you can find almost every art on the planet being bashed by another art due to what IT percieves as the important things. None of that matters if YOU are happy with what YOU do.



Yes, it's certainly true.  I do some freelance writing for an MMA magazine and am a big fan and spend a lot of time on MMA forums.  You better believe that there are certainly some guys on those forums who will attack anything related to traditional martial arts.  In their view, if it's not muay Thai or boxing, then it's useless.

Thankfully the situation has changed a good bit since the rise of guys like Lyoto Machida, John Makdessi, and Anthony Pettis.


----------



## Native (Jan 3, 2012)

Interesting information on the American Karate subject. I have wondered the same thing.

Regarding the other question:



SPX said:


> If you (the general you -- any poster who wants to answer) were running a karate school, would you have a separate self-defense program in addition to standard karate training?  Why or why not?



I would definitely have a separate SD class. I believe MA techs are only one component to SD. There is so much more that should be taught if a school is advertising Self Defense instruction.

Regards,

Adam


----------



## SPX (Jan 3, 2012)

Native said:


> I would definitely have a separate SD class. I believe MA techs are only one component to SD. There is so much more that should be taught if a school is advertising Self Defense instruction.



Like what?  What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?


----------



## ballen0351 (Jan 3, 2012)

SPX said:


> Like what? What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?



If I were to teach a class for self defense and self defense only it would focus very heavily on firearms and other defensive weapons like Tasers, OC Spray, Ect.  Physical hand to hand combat should be avoided if you can.  Also much time would be spent on situational awarness.  Many attacks I see could have ben avoided for the if the victim was more alert.  I cant count the number of victims that say I knew something didnt feel right or look right before they were attacked.


----------



## SPX (Jan 3, 2012)

I agree regarding firearms.  I'm 5'6", 150 lbs. so I'm not going to kickbox with somebody on the street unless I have to.  I actually took an Intro to Firearms course at a local place a few weeks ago.  Got my eye on the little Ruger LCP.


----------



## Native (Jan 3, 2012)

SPX said:


> Like what?  What would make a well-rounded self-defense program?



Ballen has some very good points.

Self defense is a broad subject that includes more than being able to defend when things turn physical. I believe the best self defense is to recognize and avoid trouble; and that is an entirely different skill set that is often overlooked. Then there are post incident considerations, especially when law enforcement is involved. 

I fear that a lot of people have a false security because of their MA training. I know this was the case for me during my first couple years. Fortunately I was able to educate myself and adjust and supplement my training.


----------



## SPX (Jan 3, 2012)

Native said:


> Then there are post incident considerations, especially when law enforcement is involved.



I hear you on that.  That's actually one of my greatest fears, getting into a self-defense situation where I make it out alive and unhurt, but end up in prison because a jury decided I didn't do it quite right.



Native said:


> I fear that a lot of people have a false security because of their MA training. I know this was the case for me during my first couple years. Fortunately I was able to educate myself and adjust and supplement my training.



So what about actual hand-to-hand techniques?  When it comes to traditional styles, if your focus is on SD--or if you were teaching a class that was exclusively on SD--what would you accept and what would you reject?  For instance, I assume we can all agree that a hook kick is best left to the ring, not the street.


----------



## Native (Jan 3, 2012)

Yeah, that would be my luck too... victorious against the mugger, but in jail anyway.



SPX said:


> So what about actual hand-to-hand techniques?  When it comes to traditional styles, if your focus is on SD--or if you were teaching a class that was exclusively on SD--what would you accept and what would you reject?  For instance, I assume we can all agree that a hook kick is best left to the ring, not the street.



There is a lot I love about traditional styles. A whole lot. I love training & teaching them so I would not choose to only teach "Self Defense"; I would include both and I think both can co-exist. Many traditional techniques will work in SD situations, but sometimes require tweaking. Perhaps this is the real essence of MA anyway.. to be able to learn, then unlearn and just "do". I think when applying TMA Techs to SD you need to train like a real street fight. If someone grabs you, then they usually are not just grabbing you; they probably are hitting you also. There is a lot of force involved and that needs to be accounted for. You will be attacked hard, fast and most likely sloppy.

More to the point of the question you asked.. Boxing & Kick Boxing (need good striking), Judo (balance and body manipulation) and a little bit of ground work (enough to get out of a bad situation and back on your feet) I think are great bases for a SD program.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 3, 2012)

SPX said:


> I've seen this.  Personally, I think techniques like the jumping back fist should not score, or should score only a fraction of a point, because they're just kind of silly.  When I was much younger I used to be part of a TKD org that used a stop-point format and any time someone would get me with a technique like that I thought it was ridiculous.  Even as a kid I realized it was cheap.
> 
> The actual fighting benefits gained through stop-point sparring probably really lie in learning how to avoid attacks and counter-attack without getting hit.  I imagine it also is useful for developing explosiveness and an ability to get in and out very quickly.  I could certainly see both of these qualities as being very useful in a self-defense situation.



Yes and no.  I agree, there are some benefits to even point-sparring (and hey, I do it, so I'm not dissing it).  But speaking for myself, I'm more of a counter-puncher.  Take one to give one.  I actually like to invite the first blow, but take it the way I want it; then trap and blast.  Not really something you can do with point-sparring.

In fact, we were practicing after training in the dojo last night; we have a young karateka who is wanting to go to his first competition and do point-sparring.  So we drew up a circle and I sparred with him.  I threw a roundhouse kick and he blocked it with his elbow.  The kick left me wide open for a counter, but if I know I'm going to score, I can drop my guard and bet all my marbles.  But the corner judge called 'Yame!' and called the point for me.  It was a great learning moment, because it's so much like what really happens.  I knew he blocked my kick; he knew he blocked my kick, but the corner judge saw something different and called it the way she saw it.  So first, no counter-punch; the action stopped when the judge called my kick for a point, my sloppy technique with no guard up which would have gotten me murdered on the street worked anyway.  And he also learned that you can win by losing and lose by winning in point sparring.  The judges can only call what they see; and they're often just black belts who have been drafted into the tournament for a free lunch; they're not getting paid, they're not 'trained' to be judges, and they make mistakes.

So getting back to SD versus point-sparring...

On the street, I'd probably never thrown a roundhouse kick.
If I did, I'd make sure I wasn't leaving myself open for a counter.
If I did, I'd throw it as hard as I could so that hopefully even a thrown block would be demolished.
If I threw it, no one would tell us to stop and give someone a point.

I agree that continuous sparring is a bit more lifelike, but still not like 'real' self-defense.  Points are still points; they just don't get tallied up until the end, so you can counterpunch and take one to give one.  But it still depends on what judges see; and they can be fooled or just make mistakes.  All it really does is take away the ability to use a technique with no defenses, since doing that will get you creamed.  Better, but still not SD.

Just my 2 cents.


----------



## SPX (Jan 4, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Best way to do it.  Good luck in your search.



Well, I did it . . . I went and checked out the Pinnacle Martial Arts school.  To be honest, I'm kind of disappointed.  I hate that too, because I had high hopes for this place.

I believe that the instructor is legit.  I talked to him and specifically asked him about his lineage, as we discussed.  He told me who his instructor was.  I didn't recognize the name, but apparently it was his instructor's philosophy that his students should test under other instructors, and some of those names I did recognize, like Jhoon Rhee and Tak Kubota.  

Also, it's clear that his school DOES have a track record for producing students who do well in sport karate comps, as he had a framed letter from the NBL recognizing his school (in 2010) as the #1 school that competes in their league, based upon number of championship wins during the 2010 competition season.  (The letter listed the top 25, with schools all over the US and even in Mexico.)

These are the positives.  Now the negatives:

One, too many kids.  I was already disappointed that there was not an adults-only class, but I was hoping that there would at least be a sizable percentage of adults.  I sat through the white/yellow belt class and there were two grown men, maybe three.  I then waited for the orange/blue belt class to see if the situation would improve.  In fact, it got worse.  There were a handful of women, but not a single adult male in the whole class.  Later, I asked the instructor and he said he had 9 men enrolled at his school.  I assume at least a few (perhaps most?) of them are parents of younger students.  Considering the school's reputation as a competition hot house, I was hoping there would be a group of adults who were clearly serious . . . steely-eyed . . . machines of precision and excellence.  Alas, it was not to be.

Also, too much to learn in too little time.  This place teaches both full systems of TKD and Shotokan, weaponry, a self-defense system created by one of the owners, and competitive sparring . . . all in 4 days a week, 45 minutes per class.  In my opinion, they should drop the TKD and increase the class times to an hour and 15 minutes or, even better, an hour and a half.

Just as an aside, I asked him if the Shotokan is "traditional Shotokan."  He said, no, not really.  The movements of the forms are the same, but the ways in which they're performed have been tweaked so that they'll show better in competition.  

All in all, I got a good feeling--positive energy--from the instructor.  But there were definitely things that clashed with my sensibilities.  As I sat there and watched all the little kids with their multi-colored kamas and bos, I just had a feeling that it was all superficial and everything was made of bubblegum.

With that said, I was told that it was kind of a take-it-easy class since last weekend was a big competition weekend, and weapons night might not have been the best night to go.  I'm debating over whether or not I should check out another class and keep an open mind.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 4, 2012)

Fascinating report, thanks.  You might as well know that most tournaments are for young people, mostly under the age of 16 (my sensei says that boys quit when they get car keys and discover girls).  The idea of adults sparring is pretty much gone.  Obviously, there are some adults who spar, like myself for example; but believe me, when I go to a tournament, by the time they've gotten to my age group, it's late in the day or early in the evening, and 500+ kids have come and gone in the meantime.  By the time I compete, we're down to maybe 20 to 50 adults who compete, besides the black belts who are often instructors and still compete.

I don't wish to seem negative, but competition seems to go hand in hand these days with Little League baseball and soccer and cheerleading.  It's a thing for the parents to get their kids involved in, it's Day Care, it's a place for the parents to live out fantasies of their own childhoods, and in many cases, it's just a belt factory (I'm not saying that the place you visited was any such).  One reason so many people who are serious martial artists eschew competition is that it has become so deeply intertwined with the "my kid has a trophy" karate-mom thing.

That is why many of the tournaments today have point-sparring, kata, and now, CREATIVE kata and weapons, often set to music, and involving acrobatics and weapons flying high in the air, with choreography, flashing LED bo's, and a show with everything but Yul Brynner.  It's for the kids, and more specifically, for their parents.

I don't want to suggest to you what to do, but if you're really wanting to compete, and there are a small cadre of adults who do, then you are probably going to have to keep on looking.  Consider also learning a traditional style that does not emphasize competition necessarily; nothing stops you from going to a tournament on your own.

For me, the dividing line is this.  If a dojo has their name on the back of their gi's, or has 'team colors' or a special uniform they wear to compete in that is unique to their dojo, that's less of what I'm really interested in.  A school patch is fine.  Special fighting silks for your dojo?  Not so much.  Then it seems more of a recruiting tool for a business and less like a sport.


----------



## Buka (Jan 4, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> Fascinating report, thanks.  You might as well know that most tournaments are for young people, mostly under the age of 16 (my sensei says that boys quit when they get car keys and discover girls).  The idea of adults sparring is pretty much gone.  Obviously, there are some adults who spar, like myself for example; but believe me, when I go to a tournament, by the time they've gotten to my age group, it's late in the day or early in the evening, and 500+ kids have come and gone in the meantime.  By the time I compete, we're down to maybe 20 to 50 adults who compete, besides the black belts who are often instructors and still compete.
> 
> I don't wish to seem negative, but competition seems to go hand in hand these days with Little League baseball and soccer and cheerleading.  It's a thing for the parents to get their kids involved in, it's Day Care, it's a place for the parents to live out fantasies of their own childhoods, and in many cases, it's just a belt factory (I'm not saying that the place you visited was any such).  One reason so many people who are serious martial artists eschew competition is that it has become so deeply intertwined with the "my kid has a trophy" karate-mom thing.
> 
> ...



I could read Bill's posts all day.


----------



## SPX (Jan 4, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't wish to seem negative, but competition seems to go hand in hand these days with Little League baseball and soccer and cheerleading.



Yeah, I knew going into this whole thing that there would be a pretty out-of-balance kids-to-adults ratio.  But like you say, there are SOME adults who compete, so I was hoping that there would at least be a core group of adult men who were serious about the whole thing.  Maybe 10 guys who could act as training partners and something of a support group.




Bill Mattocks said:


> . . . it's just a belt factory (I'm not saying that the place you visited was any such).



At the very least there were a couple of things that made me wonder if, at the very least, students get passed too easily.  There was a group of yellow belts doing warm ups, and the instructor lead them through chon-ji as one of the warm-ups.  I assume that they had to perform chon-ji to even get their yellow belt, and yet some of them were doing it with VERY poor form (heel off the floor in their walking stance, shoulders not squared up, leaning forward into their punches) and in fact they all were doing it kind of different from each other.  In fairness, maybe they just weren't taking it seriously because it was just a warm-up, because I was like, how did these guys pass their testing with that?



Bill Mattocks said:


> . . . and now, CREATIVE kata and weapons, often set to music, and involving acrobatics and weapons flying high in the air, with choreography, flashing LED bo's, and a show with everything but Yul Brynner.



You know, I've always wondered, do any adults actually compete in any of that stuff?



Bill Mattocks said:


> I don't want to suggest to you what to do, but if you're really wanting to compete, and there are a small cadre of adults who do, then you are probably going to have to keep on looking.  Consider also learning a traditional style that does not emphasize competition necessarily; nothing stops you from going to a tournament on your own.



I think I'm going to go check out this traditional wado-ryu school tonight:

http://wado-institute.com

I posted something about it in another thread and got a good report on the instructor.  The only thing that makes me sigh a bit is that I liked the idea of a school that will really back you up and put a lot of effort specifically into preparing you for competition.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> For me, the dividing line is this.  If a dojo has their name on the back of their gi's, or has 'team colors' or a special uniform they wear to compete in that is unique to their dojo, that's less of what I'm really interested in.  A school patch is fine.  Special fighting silks for your dojo?  Not so much.  Then it seems more of a recruiting tool for a business and less like a sport.



Yeah, I understand what you're saying.

For this place, I walked away feeling that they're probably really good at what they do . . . but what they do is pretty much all style and no substance.  I DO want a focus on competition, but not at the expense of the deeper meaning and philosophies of martial arts, and also not if there is little-to-no focus on training karate in a way that develops power and real-world fighting ability.


----------



## SPX (Jan 5, 2012)

So I did go and check out the wado-ryu school tonight. VERY traditional  school. It's amazing how much different it was from the sport karate  school I went to yesterday. Like, a TOTALLY different approach.

It was actually an adult advanced class that I dropped into (oddly, they  do advanced classes 5 days a week, but beginners classes only two days a  week) and tonight seemed to be a fundamentals night. They were doing  some pretty basic stuff for an advanced class.

The setting was austere and there was a traditional memorial (shrine?)  on the wall for who I guessed was the founder of wado-ryu. There were  five students and one instructor--all ranging from what I'd guess are  mid-20s to mid-50s. One of the biggest differences from the schools that  I noticed were that I felt like the students at Pinnacle were throwing  punches for show . . . the students at the Wado Institute were throwing  punches that were intended to hurt somebody. But this could just be  because a 200 lb man's punches are going to look a lot more forceful  than a kids or a woman's.

I'll also say that coming from a TKD background with most of the karate  that I've been exposed to being Shotokan, some of the movement is definitely a  bit odd.  Admittedly, my gut reaction was to stand up, wave my hands,  and say, "Look guys, you're doing it wrong!"  

I think that what I really want is a sort of middle-ground between the  two approaches--not totally traditional, but also not overly modern--but  at this point I'm realizing that I'm just going to have to pick  something and go with it. The wado school is looking promising because,  even if it's not exactly what I'm looking for, they have  adults-only classes, the instructor has impressive credentials, and it's  only 25 minutes away by bus.  (I live downtown, don't have a car, and  most of the martial arts schools are way out in the suburbs.)


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2012)

SPX said:


> So I did go and check out the wado-ryu school tonight. VERY traditional school. It's amazing how much different it was from the sport karate school I went to yesterday. Like, a TOTALLY different approach.
> 
> It was actually an adult advanced class that I dropped into (oddly, they do advanced classes 5 days a week, but beginners classes only two days a week) and tonight seemed to be a fundamentals night. They were doing some pretty basic stuff for an advanced class.
> 
> ...




LOL, I get that reaction when I see Shotkan, I come from a Wado background. I'm surprised at a 'shrine' though. Wado tends not to go for that sort of thing. I love Wado Ryu though, the katas and the Bunkai.  since doing MMA as well I've found a lot off the ground moves as well as the stand up in the Bunkai. I also love the approach of Wado 'if you're not ther you can't be punched' a good one for me, that's simplified of course but I do like the avoidance and then belting them parts of Wado!


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 5, 2012)

SPX said:


> The setting was austere and there was a traditional memorial (shrine?)  on the wall for who I guessed was the founder of wado-ryu.



In Okinawan styles, that's called the 'Wall of Honor' or the 'Shomen'.  We face it and bow, we also bow to our sensei.  I know that some people object to this; they consider it a form of pagan worship.  I just consider it a traditional way of showing respect.  But to each their own.



> There were  five students and one instructor--all ranging from what I'd guess are  mid-20s to mid-50s. One of the biggest differences from the schools that  I noticed were that I felt like the students at Pinnacle were throwing  punches for show . . . the students at the Wado Institute were throwing  punches that were intended to hurt somebody. But this could just be  because a 200 lb man's punches are going to look a lot more forceful  than a kids or a woman's.



Possibly, but it could also be just what you think; what is done for competition is different from what is done for traditional martial arts training.  A punch does not have to look pretty to be effective, but if one is doing kata in a competition, the speed of the punch and the snap of the gi are taken as indicators that power is being generated.



> I'll also say that coming from a TKD background with most of the karate  that I've been exposed to being Shotokan, some of the movement is definitely a  bit odd.  Admittedly, my gut reaction was to stand up, wave my hands,  and say, "Look guys, you're doing it wrong!"



We have a TKD guy in our dojo now.  He's great and he has some very interesting moves that he shows us; he can also jump and kick like nobody's business. But our punches are very different; we generate power in a very different way.  I can't say which is 'better', but yes, it's different.



> I think that what I really want is a sort of middle-ground between the  two approaches--not totally traditional, but also not overly modern--but  at this point I'm realizing that I'm just going to have to pick  something and go with it. The wado school is looking promising because,  even if it's not exactly what I'm looking for, they have  adults-only classes, the instructor has impressive credentials, and it's  only 25 minutes away by bus.  (I live downtown, don't have a car, and  most of the martial arts schools are way out in the suburbs.)



Wado is about the least competition-oriented MA I could imagine, though.  The good part is that there are lots of katas, and some of them will be unusual to judges; that can be a good thing.  The bad part is, wado has a ground game, and you can't grapple in one-point sparring!

Are there any Kempo/Kenpo or TKD/TSD or even Isshin-Ryu schools near you?  When I got to competitions, that's what I see a lot of; along with a sprinkling of Shorin-Ryu, various sorts of Kung Fu, and local combinations of various styles like "American Karate," but sometimes given some local name, like Soo Do Thai, for example (they compete locally and win a lot, I'm not dissing them).

In answer to one of your other questions, yes, I do see some adults (mostly 'young adults') competing in the various 'creative' kata and weapons categories.  Not too many older adults, though.  I have seen some 'demos' done by entire dojos and sometimes I see 'team kata' done as competition, but not that much.

Let me show you what we have here in Detroit, maybe that will be of use to you where you are.

Primarily, in SE Michgan, there are two groups:

http://www.michigansportkarate.com/

http://www.greatlakeskaratecircuit.com/

Both of them are members of various organizations.  They are usually 'open' competitions, meaning open to all styles, and open to all comers.  Some are specifically for a given style, and some are for members of that association only.

You can, if you are a member of that organization, compete year-round for points, which are tallied up and at the end of the year, they have grand champions for every age and belt grouping (novice, intermediate, advanced, black belt, men and women) and for kata, weapons, and sparring, etc.

If you look at the sponsors of the various tournaments, you can see that they are not all the same style; but many are TKD and related Korean or Korean-derived styles.  Obviously there is much more emphasis placed on competition and 'sport' karate in these dojos that sponsor tournaments.

I don't belong to any of the organizations, and I don't compete year-long or gather points.  And most of the competitions I go to are Isshin-Ryu only or Isshin-Ryu sponsored open competitions in other states. I may not be able to do those anymore due to finances, though.  Traveling to fight aint' cheap.  Imagine spending $500 to drive 12 hours each way, get a hotel, pay for food, enter the tournament, and losing your first and only bout in less than 2 minutes.  Ouch.  And they were even out of t-shirts.

The main reason I prefer Isshin-Ryu oriented tournaments is because the judges know what Isshin-Ryu kata looks like (not that there isn't a lot of argument over how those kata are done, there is  ), and sparring tends to be actual hitting even in point-sparring.  Continuous sparring is rock-em-sock-em robots.  Real karate, real kicks and punches, just done with pads and a bit of restraint.

But most of these open tournaments are for the kids.  Some times there are no adults my age at all; I end up competing against 40, 30, and even 20 somethings (I rock their world, too, even when I lose).  We've had some adult women go home disappointed because they were the only ones in their division and no one to fight.  Here's your trophy, you can go home now.  Great.

Here's an example; a dojo mate of mine who volunteered to fight out of her gender and belt and age classification just because there was no one to fight her!  These guys were black belts, to her brown.  They were in their 20's to her somewhat older age, and of course men to her female.  Pure courage on her part, by the way.

[video=youtube_share;775SovXN69c]http://youtu.be/775SovXN69c[/video]

[video=youtube_share;Dmr-xow1bEg]http://youtu.be/Dmr-xow1bEg[/video]

There are a lot more videos of kata and sparring on my feed, feel free to check them out if you want a feel for what these things look like.  Notice how small the crowds are by the time the adults perform kata and fight! 

http://www.youtube.com/user/wiggyjones?feature=watch


----------



## Grenadier (Jan 5, 2012)

SPX said:


> It was actually an adult advanced class that I dropped into (oddly, they  do advanced classes 5 days a week, but beginners classes only two days a  week)



Not entirely unusual.  Beginners generally have poorer conditioning than advanced students, and for most beginners, two times a week is usually enough.  Even if you are in pretty good condition and came from another system, the Wado techniques place an emphasis on specific muscle groups that other systems might not (and vice versa), so even the experienced beginner will need time to recover.  



> and tonight seemed to be a fundamentals night. They were doing  some pretty basic stuff for an advanced class.



This is not unusual of a traditional Shotokan or Wado Ryu dojo.  If anything, by holding your advanced students to a higher standard, and insisting that their fundamental basic techniques show a higher quality with each rank, it ensures that your students will be well-equipped to handle the "advanced" techniques.  I've lost track of the number of times I'll see some schools' black belts performing certain advanced kata, and it looks just plain terrible.  

For example, in kata Gojushiho Dai, you must have a strong cat stance, and learn how to move the body by shifting, instead of stepping.  Otherwise, you start bouncing up and down, and your techniques look weak.  Unfortunately, some schools only teach you the sequence, without making sure that your fundamental technique is sufficiently good.  

Teaching sequences and advanced techniques to advanced students is actually easy, IF you've constantly had your advanced students keeping their basic techniques sharp.  This is actually very common in various JKA-type schools.    



> punches that were intended to hurt somebody. But this could just be  because a 200 lb man's punches are going to look a lot more forceful  than a kids or a woman's.



Maybe so, but in the end, you still need to look at the practitioner's fundamental technique.  Is he punching using the lower body to drive the upper body?  Or is he throwing sub-optimal punches because he puts too much emphasis on the upper body?  

When you're in a traditional Karate school that focuses on good technique, it's not going to be so much of whether or not the super-talented guy has a better punch than the lesser-talented fellow, but rather, how much better is the student now, versus himself of a week ago?  A month ago?  A year ago?  



> I'll also say that coming from a TKD background with most of the karate  that I've been exposed to being Shotokan, some of the movement is definitely a  bit odd.  Admittedly, my gut reaction was to stand up, wave my hands,  and say, "Look guys, you're doing it wrong!"



I can sympathize...  Having gone from Shotokan to Shuri Ryu, to Wado, back to Shotokan, does create for some confusion, but after a few weeks, you'll adjust quite nicely.  I learned a greater appreciation for each arts' methods.  



> I think that what I really want is a sort of middle-ground between the  two approaches--not totally traditional, but also not overly modern--but  at this point I'm realizing that I'm just going to have to pick  something and go with it. The wado school is looking promising because,  even if it's not exactly what I'm looking for, they have  adults-only classes, the instructor has impressive credentials, and it's  only 25 minutes away by bus.  (I live downtown, don't have a car, and  most of the martial arts schools are way out in the suburbs.)



Looks like you found your school, then.  Osaka Sensei is definitely good, and is the real deal, so you'll be getting a good workout and training regimen.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2012)

Wado Ryu may have what you call a ground game but we don't grapple as part of Wado. You'll see a lot of techniques you can use in grappling in the Bunkai as well as the self defence ones.





 We also compete a lot in Wado, some of ours go regularly to America to fight. It's a very good style for sparring and fighting. The katas are similiar to those in Shotokan, as you'd imagine. I wouldn't say they are unusual. I've been to a lot of Wado Ryu places to train and compete but haven't seen anything like a 'shrine wall'.

Here's the Wado Ryu katas as done by the founder Ohtsuka Sensei.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjACMJ5xrus&feature=BFa&list=PL7DEACE6B9B513EF4&lf=results_main


----------



## SPX (Jan 5, 2012)

Tez3 said:


> I also love the approach of Wado 'if you're not ther you can't be punched' a good one for me, that's simplified of course but I do like the avoidance and then belting them parts of Wado!



I have heard this about Wado, and it's actually one of the reasons I'm interested in karate in general.  I'm a small guy.  I can't be getting hit by some big 220 lb. dude throwing haymakers.  I need a style that will help me to stay out of harm's way and counter-strike without without taking any unnecessary damage.


----------



## Tez3 (Jan 5, 2012)

SPX said:


> I have heard this about Wado, and it's actually one of the reasons I'm interested in karate in general. I'm a small guy. I can't be getting hit by some big 220 lb. dude throwing haymakers. I need a style that will help me to stay out of harm's way and counter-strike without without taking any unnecessary damage.



I've heard it said that Shotokan is for the big guys and Wado for us smaller people. the stances aren't deep like many styles and there's a lot of 'avoidance', my instructor says if you aren't there you can't be hit, we actually put that into the MMA. The founder got rid of a lot of the 'fussiness' of preparation stances etc putting in economy of movement instead, he changed anything that was going to use up too much energy. There's quite a bit shifting your body weight to avoid being hit.


----------



## SPX (Jan 5, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> In Okinawan styles, that's called the 'Wall of Honor' or the 'Shomen'.  We face it and bow, we also bow to our sensei.  I know that some people object to this; they consider it a form of pagan worship.  I just consider it a traditional way of showing respect.  But to each their own.



Interesting.

Isn't wado regarded as a Japanese style, though?




Bill Mattocks said:


> We have a TKD guy in our dojo now.  He's great and he has some very interesting moves that he shows us; he can also jump and kick like nobody's business.



If I move over to karate, there's definitely going to be something that I'll miss about TKD.  The kicking is lots of fun and sparring with good kickers is a lot of fun.  

Anyone ever studied two different striking styles concurrently?  




Bill Mattocks said:


> Wado is about the least competition-oriented MA I could imagine, though.



When I first walked in the door there was a large trophy display, so I thought that was a good sign.  Also, according to the website, "Over the years Osaka Sensei's program has created many successful "sport  karate" competitors.  Osaka Sensei's champions have competed with great  success across the United States, Europe and Japan." 

It also says that the youth program's instructor, Aurora Taylor-Rojas, is a 7 time Utah Open Karate Championship kumite champion.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> Are there any Kempo/Kenpo or TKD/TSD or even Isshin-Ryu schools near you?



There are places around, but there a handful of considerations:

1.  I don't have a car.  Distance isn't necessarily a huge problem, but  the route needs to be fairly direct via public transportation, and often  it's not.

2.  Salt Lake sucks for traditional martial arts.  There are actually  some good MMA and muay Thai clubs around, but if you want a traditional  style, then your options are limited.  There is a Kenpo 5.0 school that I  would be interested in checking out if it wasn't so far away.  There's  also a Kyokushin school that I would definitely be down to take a look  at it, but it's over an hour away, and that's even with a car . . .  impossible to get there without one.  There's also a WTF TKD school that  I would consider, but the no-face-punch thing will always bother me,  and it's also impossible to get there without a car.

3.  I would probably be happy with a good ITF school, but the local ITF  schools (which are actually USTF) do not meet my standards.  I really  like the ITF sparring format, as I've mentioned before, and the ho sin  sul is also pretty cool, but I was involved with a local class and there  were many pitfalls.  It was mostly kids, the instructor was insane and,  in the 4 months I was there, never once--across all belts ranging from  white to red--was there any sparring.  My breaking point came when I  attended a testing and red belts tested successfully without doing even  one second of sparring (and this was a test that was overseen by the  higher ups in the USTF in Utah).




Bill Mattocks said:


> Let me show you what we have here in Detroit, maybe that will be of use to you where you are.
> 
> Primarily, in SE Michgan, there are two groups:
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info, I'll take a look at these. 




Bill Mattocks said:


> Imagine spending $500 to drive 12 hours each way, get a hotel, pay for food, enter the tournament, and losing your first and only bout in less than 2 minutes.  Ouch.  And they were even out of t-shirts.



That would be terrible!  You're not at least guaranteed more than one match?

I guess where the value of competing in more than one thing comes in.  

I think it would be cool to one day take 3 months to just travel around the country doing tournament after tournament, hitting a different one each weekend.  



Bill Mattocks said:


> Continuous sparring is rock-em-sock-em robots.  Real karate, real kicks and punches, just done with pads and a bit of restraint.



Now that sounds like fun!  

Are isshin-ryu tournaments usually open to everyone or just isshin-ryu stylists?



Bill Mattocks said:


> But most of these open tournaments are for the kids.  Some times there are no adults my age at all; I end up competing against 40, 30, and even 20 somethings (I rock their world, too, even when I lose).  We've had some adult women go home disappointed because they were the only ones in their division and no one to fight.  Here's your trophy, you can go home now.  Great.



That's lame.

I found myself in a similar situation in the one and only judo competition I went to, the Minnesota State Open.  I was a white belt and weighed in at 123 lbs.  There were only two other guys who were even remotely close to me in weight, with both of them over 150 lbs and higher ranked.

I lost both matches.  It was kind of a disheartening experience.



Bill Mattocks said:


> Here's an example; a dojo mate of mine who volunteered to fight out of her gender and belt and age classification just because there was no one to fight her!  These guys were black belts, to her brown.



Definitely gotta give her mad props for going out there and challenging herself.  How did she end up doing?



Bill Mattocks said:


> There are a lot more videos of kata and sparring on my feed, feel free to check them out if you want a feel for what these things look like.  Notice how small the crowds are by the time the adults perform kata and fight!
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/wiggyjones?feature=watch



I'll definitely check that out.  Thanks!


----------



## scottie (Jan 16, 2012)

Bill Mattocks said:


> And for what it's worth (this is not bashing), sport karate today is not much like the competitive karate of the 1960's in the USA.  Point-sparring is a whole new beast, and it's not much like karate or self-defense; the techniques just don't apply.  You can win with point-sparring techniques that would literally get you demolished if you tried them in a self-defense situation.  Unlike, say, a boxer, who could probably do just fine in a street fight, a point-fighter may well apply techniques that score points in a tournament and get creamed by a street fighter.



Bill I agree and disagree. I trained in two different styles of "American Karate" (mostly both mutt styles) for 20 years. If I would have done that kind of point fighting I would been brutally beaten on the street. Example ( I hooked kicked a guy in the head my final point to win the Isshinryu HOF. "Grand Master Ralph Passaro said it's Great to see a fat guy kick like that." The kick did not even hurt the guy. My style of American Karate point fighting. that kick would have pissed him off enough to kick my butt on the street. I was able to land it because his Style of Isshinryu sparing made him much smaller planted, stiff, and rigid which made him slower than a much fatter Scottie. 
With that being said My Isshinryu instructor that you met at Master Mitchum's Taught me how to fight using Both hands or  a hand and a foot at the same time as well as using- adapting kata technique  to enhance my point fighting.   
example
The fight before my final fight, the guy throws a waist height side kick, using the technique from Seiuchin Kata (down block, side block at the same time then upper cut back fist.) I did that portion of the kata only not stopping at the side block but going straight into an upper cut the down turns into a reverse punch so that i am doing two weapons at the same time if he blocks the upper cut the punch hits him. this causes me to block and hit at the same time which gives my opponent the thought that my Goodness he blocked me and hit me at once he is fast. The end result was me getting a to much contact warning and praying that he doesn't start bleeding while the grown man is crying. The guy that beat me to win the Grands was faster and did that better than me. That style of point fighting could very well work on the street. SO Mr. Bill I respectfully disagree. and respectfully agree.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 16, 2012)

SPX said:


> Interesting.
> 
> Isn't wado regarded as a Japanese style, though?



Yes, but Isshin-Ryu (my style) is Okinawan. Okinawa may be part of Japan, but at the same time, it's not.



> If I move over to karate, there's definitely going to be something that I'll miss about TKD.  The kicking is lots of fun and sparring with good kickers is a lot of fun.
> 
> Anyone ever studied two different striking styles concurrently?



No, I stick with one style for now.  I have a hard enough time mastering my own style and a long way to go to even achieve proficiency.  Eventually, I want to add some judo to my work box, but not for awhile yet.



> When I first walked in the door there was a large trophy display, so I thought that was a good sign.  Also, according to the website, "Over the years Osaka Sensei's program has created many successful "sport  karate" competitors.  Osaka Sensei's champions have competed with great  success across the United States, Europe and Japan."
> 
> It also says that the youth program's instructor, Aurora Taylor-Rojas, is a 7 time Utah Open Karate Championship kumite champion.



Well, I have trophies from every competition I've been to.  And some of them don't mean much, frankly.  Some tournaments give them out to one and all.  Given the number of divisions, and 1,2,3 and sometimes 4th place awards in each, that's a lot of trophies.  It doesn't take long to make a pile of them.



> That would be terrible!  You're not at least guaranteed more than one match?



Nope. I've been to some tournaments where there were only three guys in my division.  Two guys fight, one gets the bye.  The loser of the first match automatically gets third place.  The remaining two fight for 1st and 2nd.  That's the way it is.



> I think it would be cool to one day take 3 months to just travel around the country doing tournament after tournament, hitting a different one each weekend.



I'm 50 years old with a family.  Not going to happen.  If you are in a position to do it, cool.




> Now that sounds like fun!
> 
> Are isshin-ryu tournaments usually open to everyone or just isshin-ryu stylists?



Often, yes.  A tournament will say 'open' if it is open to other styles.  But continuous sparring is showing up here and there in all kinds of open tournaments.  It's becoming quite popular.



> That's lame.
> 
> I found myself in a similar situation in the one and only judo competition I went to, the Minnesota State Open.  I was a white belt and weighed in at 123 lbs.  There were only two other guys who were even remotely close to me in weight, with both of them over 150 lbs and higher ranked.
> 
> I lost both matches.  It was kind of a disheartening experience.



But it is what it is.  You should see the look on the faces of the guys I've been put up against.  I'm twice their age and over twice their weight.  They're usually faster and more flexible, but hitting me is like bouncing off a brick wall; if nothing else, I can bully and bounce them straight out of the ring.  I usually do, too.  I'm not used to backing up in a sparring match.



> Definitely gotta give her mad props for going out there and challenging herself.  How did she end up doing?



Well, she lost, as was to be expected; she was pretty much outclassed by these guys who could just reach over and tap her on the head as you saw.  But she did win a round against one of them, and I thought that was awesome.  Point was a) she is brave but also b) very often, this is what happens in adults competing; not enough adults.

Tournaments these days are mostly for kids, was my point.  If you go to them, you see.


----------



## Bill Mattocks (Jan 16, 2012)

scottie said:


> Bill I agree and disagree. I trained in two different styles of "American Karate" (mostly both mutt styles) for 20 years. If I would have done that kind of point fighting I would been brutally beaten on the street. Example ( I hooked kicked a guy in the head my final point to win the Isshinryu HOF. "Grand Master Ralph Passaro said it's Great to see a fat guy kick like that." The kick did not even hurt the guy. My style of American Karate point fighting. that kick would have pissed him off enough to kick my butt on the street. I was able to land it because his Style of Isshinryu sparing made him much smaller planted, stiff, and rigid which made him slower than a much fatter Scottie.
> With that being said My Isshinryu instructor that you met at Master Mitchum's Taught me how to fight using Both hands or  a hand and a foot at the same time as well as using- adapting kata technique  to enhance my point fighting.
> example
> The fight before my final fight, the guy throws a waist height side kick, using the technique from Seiuchin Kata (down block, side block at the same time then upper cut back fist.) I did that portion of the kata only not stopping at the side block but going straight into an upper cut the down turns into a reverse punch so that i am doing two weapons at the same time if he blocks the upper cut the punch hits him. this causes me to block and hit at the same time which gives my opponent the thought that my Goodness he blocked me and hit me at once he is fast. The end result was me getting a to much contact warning and praying that he doesn't start bleeding while the grown man is crying. The guy that beat me to win the Grands was faster and did that better than me. That style of point fighting could very well work on the street. SO Mr. Bill I respectfully disagree. and respectfully agree.



I like Naihanchi for the same reason.  Two punches.  Pick the one you're going to block; the other will get ya.  In the dojo, we practice a back-fist from seuinchin stance to the side, followed by a crossover step and back kick, but done as if both were being launched at the same time.  Defend the backfist, and the kick gets ya.  Other way, same thing.  Kinda like the backfist-kick in Kusanku, but with a stepover back kick and not a front snap kick.


----------

