# New WT Sparring Rules



## TrueJim (Apr 6, 2018)

World Taekwondo General Assembly approves competition rule changes - World Taekwondo

"Now with even more spinnyness!"


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 6, 2018)

I'm a fan of the random weight testing, but if they're going to do that then 5% is too much. If a weight class tops at 150 (for easy math, but one does top there IIRC), and someone weighs in at 149.5, then do a random test and come in 2 hours before at 157.5, they're at exactly 5%. They're doing it according to the article for the health risks, but to me gaining 8 pounds in one day is still a pretty big risk. And the allowable difference will just increase as you enter higher weight classes.


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## skribs (Apr 6, 2018)

Gaining 10-15 pounds in a day is common for combat sports.  For example, in the UFC 135 pound weight class, the fighters will probably be in the 145-150 pound range.  They just cut weight and dehydrate themselves for the weigh-in and then rehydrate during the day before the fight.


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## skribs (Apr 6, 2018)

> A gamjeom can now be issued if an athlete has one leg outside of the boundary line and referees will now only wait for five seconds before issuing a gamjeom to athletes who are not engaging in the fight. Using an alternative foot technique will also result in a gamjeom.



What is an "alternative foot technique"?


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## TrueJim (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> What is an "alternative foot technique"?



This question is also being discussed on the taekwondo subreddit right now. My conjecture was that they meant things like monkey kicks. Right now a monkey kick is not illegal, but it doesn't score. My conjecture was that the new rule would make it actually illegal. Another contribute suggested that it may mean things like blocking with the leg, or holding a leg in the air.


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## skribs (Apr 6, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> This question is also being discussed on the taekwondo subreddit right now. My conjecture was that they meant things like monkey kicks. Right now a monkey kick is not illegal, but it doesn't score. My conjecture was that the new rule would make it actually illegal. Another contribute suggested that it may mean things like blocking with the leg, or holding a leg in the air.



Follow-up question:  what is a monkey kick?


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Follow-up question:  what is a monkey kick?




You beat me to it!


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 6, 2018)

A monkey kick is a sloppy kick that would not do diddly in the real world, but may have enough impact to trigger the stupid sensors.


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## skribs (Apr 6, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> A monkey kick is a sloppy kick that would not do diddly in the real world, but may have enough impact to trigger the stupid sensors.



What's the issue with that?  If it activates the sensors, isn't that the game?


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## Tez3 (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> What's the issue with that?  If it activates the sensors, isn't that the game?




They could get round the problem of 'sloppy' kicks by having judges sat at the side giving out style marks!


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> What's the issue with that?  If it activates the sensors, isn't that the game?



Because the strikes are also supposed to be effective.


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## skribs (Apr 6, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Because the strikes are also supposed to be effective.



If it's strong enough to activate the sensors, I'd say it's effective.  That means either the kick is more effective than you think, or the sensors are undertuned as to what qualifies as a point.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> Gaining 10-15 pounds in a day is common for combat sports.  For example, in the UFC 135 pound weight class, the fighters will probably be in the 145-150 pound range.  They just cut weight and dehydrate themselves for the weigh-in and then rehydrate during the day before the fight.


Yup. Which is unhealthy, and from that article is the reason they are instituting the rule. If you're limiting it to 8-10 pounds instead of 10-15 that is drastically being cut and brought back, it doesn't make it all that more healthy.


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## TrueJim (Apr 6, 2018)

This is a monkey kick: Monkey Kick

In USAT referee training this year they reiterated that these kinds of kicks should not score. I understand the premise of the "if it activates the sensors, it should score" argument, but I believe the philosophy is this: the sensors don't run the ring, the referee does. The sensors are just a tool. Ultimately it's the *judgement* of referees and corner judges that are intended to prevail. WT doesn't want silly hacks like monkey kicks to bypass the intended characteristics of the sport.


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## TrueJim (Apr 6, 2018)

skribs said:


> If it's strong enough to activate the sensors, I'd say it's effective.  That means either the kick is more effective than you think, or the sensors are undertuned as to what qualifies as a point.



In my opinion, our current e-hogu technology is poor. The sensors are intentionally undertuned so that kicks that land on the hogu *but not near a sensor* will still activate. It's this design flaw that create the problem with monkey kicks.


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## TrueJim (Apr 6, 2018)

Tez3 said:


> They could get round the problem of 'sloppy' kicks by having judges sat at the side giving out style marks!



If you think about it, that's essentially what's happening now anyway, since sensors don't detect when a kick is a spinning kick. Judges already have to sit in the corners pressing buttons every time they see a spinning kick, so that the electronic scoring system will know to increment the score by an additional point.


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## pdg (Apr 6, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> This is a monkey kick



When it's done as in that picture (and description) then yes, it's awful.

A similar looking kick (not performed while hugging ) can be quite effective though.


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## skribs (Apr 7, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> In my opinion, our current e-hogu technology is poor. The sensors are intentionally undertuned so that kicks that land on the hogu *but not near a sensor* will still activate. It's this design flaw that create the problem with monkey kicks.



I will definitely agree that the Daedo system is terrible, although for other reasons.  In Junior classes they're often overtuned so that the only kicks that score are headshots, and quite often the referees at the local tournament will put the wrong sensor in the head and chest.


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## Jaeimseu (Apr 7, 2018)

Regardless of the tech being used, allowing players to game the system is what messes up the game. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## JowGaWolf (Apr 7, 2018)

didn't they just changed the rules last month


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## _Simon_ (Apr 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> Gaining 10-15 pounds in a day is common for combat sports.  For example, in the UFC 135 pound weight class, the fighters will probably be in the 145-150 pound range.  They just cut weight and dehydrate themselves for the weigh-in and then rehydrate during the day before the fight.


I've never never understood this about fights... to me it's just too risky, you sooo do not want to be dehydrated for your fight, and focusing so much on limiting carbs and water so close to your fight just to make your weight just makes no sense to me...

Obviously they have to make the weight, but I just reckon these drastic steps would just decrease their performance surely? Of course it depends on how close to the fight it is, and carb-deloading/loading has been shown to work when done right..

But nevertheless it confuses me tis all


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## skribs (Apr 8, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> I've never never understood this about fights... to me it's just too risky, you sooo do not want to be dehydrated for your fight, and focusing so much on limiting carbs and water so close to your fight just to make your weight just makes no sense to me...
> 
> Obviously they have to make the weight, but I just reckon these drastic steps would just decrease their performance surely? Of course it depends on how close to the fight it is, and carb-deloading/loading has been shown to work when done right..
> 
> But nevertheless it confuses me tis all



The advantage is you are 20 pounds heavier than you say you are, and despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does.


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## TrueJim (Apr 8, 2018)

skribs said:


> despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does



If I had a nickel....


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## _Simon_ (Apr 9, 2018)

skribs said:


> The advantage is you are 20 pounds heavier than you say you are, and despite all the mantras about size not mattering, it does.


Ah yeah true, I guess I meant more in terms of the drastic measures to cut weight so soon to a fight, when nutrition and hydration are super important specifically at that stage... But obviously people do do it and are fine in their fights, so it must be ok if done smartly


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## Dirty Dog (Apr 9, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Ah yeah true, I guess I meant more in terms of the drastic measures to cut weight so soon to a fight, when nutrition and hydration are super important specifically at that stage... But obviously people do do it and are fine in their fights, so it must be ok if done smartly



Some people do meth and heroin and are fine. I guess that means it's OK?

Some things are not OK, even if some people get away with it.


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## _Simon_ (Apr 9, 2018)

Dirty Dog said:


> Some people do meth and heroin and are fine. I guess that means it's OK?
> 
> Some things are not OK, even if some people get away with it.



Lol... True, but I'm referring to the performance of their fight. Not so much their health long term (which of course would affect their fighting performance, but I'm talking short term performance). Alot of fighters seem to do this practice of cutting weight with seemingly drastic methods before a fight (with nutrition/hydration that are crucial to their functioning in their sport), and yet their endurance and ability in the fight seems on par, so all I'm saying is they must have it down to a real science in order to perform optimally. Still confusing to me hehe but yeah it's fascinating.


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## skribs (Apr 9, 2018)

_Simon_ said:


> Lol... True, but I'm referring to the performance of their fight. Not so much their health long term (which of course would affect their fighting performance, but I'm talking short term performance). Alot of fighters seem to do this practice of cutting weight with seemingly drastic methods before a fight (with nutrition/hydration that are crucial to their functioning in their sport), and yet their endurance and ability in the fight seems on par, so all I'm saying is they must have it down to a real science in order to perform optimally. Still confusing to me hehe but yeah it's fascinating.



This is basically a given in the UFC, to the point that when I watch Ultimate Fighter, this seems to be the drama almost every week is making weight.  I think it's actually a good reason to include same-day weigh-ins in addition to day-before weigh-ins, is to keep people from doing this to themselves.



TrueJim said:


> If I had a nickel....



I can't tell if you agree or disagree with me.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Apr 9, 2018)

IMO, either way the weight gain/loss is unhealthy, and they end up in the same weight class anyway-if both people gain 10 pounds from weigh in to fight, it's a fight between two people at 155 lb, rather than 145 lb. So if they prevented it altogether, by weighing people an hour before the match, the matchups would be the same anyway, the weight classes would just be more accurate and it would get rid of one extra health risk.


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## Rough Rider (Apr 9, 2018)

I think "Monkey Kick" would be an awesome band name.


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## TrueJim (Apr 9, 2018)

At our dojang we were joking about starting a band: "Kihap and the Board Breakers"

(When I was a college professor we professors had a band. We called ourselves: "The Diminished Faculties.")

(And when I was in grad school we talked about starting a band: "Head Cleaner and the Demagnetizers". _Everybody has our tape!_)


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## skribs (Apr 9, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> At our dojang we were joking about starting a band: "Kihap and the Board Breakers"
> 
> (When I was a college professor we professors had a band. We called ourselves: "The Diminished Faculties.")
> 
> (And when I was in grad school we talked about starting a band: "Head Cleaner and the Demagnetizers". _Everybody has our tape!_)



We have so many students at my Taekwondo school named Daniel (including me) so I've thought about starting a band with them called Daniel and the Daniels.


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## Rough Rider (Apr 24, 2018)

I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers. You hold the red one in your left hand and the blue one in your right. As points are scored, you press the appropriate button.

When I first started, it was relatively simple: Press the top button for a head kick and 2 points are recorded. Press the bottom button for a body shot (punch or kick) and 1 point is recorded. Even with this system, it was sometimes difficult to keep up with a fast-paced match.

The problem now is that these things only have 2 buttons. We had a lot of trouble at this year's tournament with some kicks being worth 3 or 4 points. We had to push multiple times to score one kick, and if the other judges didn't do it exactly the same, no points scored (2 out of three have to score it to count.) It was even more difficult with combinations. For example, if one fighter lands a roundhouse to the body and immediately follows with a crescent kick to the head, I used to simple press bottom then top. This year I had to press top for the roundhouse (2 points) and immediately press top then bottom for the head shot (3 points). Again, you have to be quick because the other guy might come right back within a second with a score of his own. Now, next year we're going to have to score anywhere from 1 to 5 points with only 2 buttons. This is madness.


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## skribs (Apr 24, 2018)

Rough Rider said:


> I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers. You hold the red one in your left hand and the blue one in your right. As points are scored, you press the appropriate button.
> 
> When I first started, it was relatively simple: Press the top button for a head kick and 2 points are recorded. Press the bottom button for a body shot (punch or kick) and 1 point is recorded. Even with this system, it was sometimes difficult to keep up with a fast-paced match.
> 
> The problem now is that these things only have 2 buttons. We had a lot of trouble at this year's tournament with some kicks being worth 3 or 4 points. We had to push multiple times to score one kick, and if the other judges didn't do it exactly the same, no points scored (2 out of three have to score it to count.) It was even more difficult with combinations. For example, if one fighter lands a roundhouse to the body and immediately follows with a crescent kick to the head, I used to simple press bottom then top. This year I had to press top for the roundhouse (2 points) and immediately press top then bottom for the head shot (3 points). Again, you have to be quick because the other guy might come right back within a second with a score of his own. Now, next year we're going to have to score anywhere from 1 to 5 points with only 2 buttons. This is madness.



It gets better with the electronic hogus when someone puts the head sensor in the chest and vice versa.  Last tournament I went to with those it happened about every other match.


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## TrueJim (Apr 25, 2018)

skribs said:


> It gets better with the electronic hogus when someone puts the head sensor in the chest and vice versa.  Last tournament I went to with those it happened about every other match.



The ref is _supposed_ to prevent this by having each opponent tap the other in the chest before the match, to confirm that the correct sensor is in the correct hogu.


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

Are the sensors not marked for location?


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## TrueJim (Apr 25, 2018)

Rough Rider said:


> I don't compete, so it has little effect on me. I do, however, judge at my school's annual tournament. We don't have the fancy new electronic hogus, so we have to use the devices with the buttons. I don't know what they're called, but they are sort of like old video game controllers...



I believe they're usually called Judge's Boxes (even when they're not actual boxes). Whether you have electronic hogu or not, the judges still need to have Judge's Boxes:

When electronic hogus are used, pressing the buttons on the Judge's Boxes indicates spinning kicks (since automated sensors cannot tell whether or not somebody was spinning -- you need a human to press a button to indicate that spinning happened)
When electronic hogus are _not_ used, pressing the buttons indicates a hit.
Often the same exact boxes are used whether a ring has electronic hogus or not...the behavior of the Judge's Boxes is controlled by the software in the laptops that the ring's Recorders are using.
Most Judge's Boxes have 3 buttons for each of Blue and Red. When electronic hogu are not used:
One of the buttons is used to indicate a kick to the hogu
One of the buttons is used to indicate a kick to the head
One of the buttons is used to indicate that the kick was a technical kick; for example you'll press two buttons in rapid succession: "kick to the hogu" + "technical kick". That some button is often used for a punch; if no "kick to the..." button was pressed first, then the software assumes that pressing the "technical" button must haven't meant punch.
Daedo uses magnetic induction to detect when a sock is approaching an electronic hogu; so basically it's the same technology that let's a stoplight know when a car is at the intersection (there's a big electromagnet under the pavement). KP&P uses Near Field Communications (NFC) to detect when a sock is approaching the hogu; so basically that's the same technology that a smartphone uses for tap-to-pay at the grocery store.

Because Daedo is just using magnets, Daedo cannot tell the left sock from the right sock. Daedo can't tell the front of the sock from the back of the sock. A magnet is a magnet is a magnet. Because KP&P is using NFC, each sock and each part of each sock can have a different microchip so that the hogu knows not only that it's been hit, but it also knows that it's been hit by which part of which sock.

Because Daedo is just magnets, its very durable and you can wash it easily. Because KP&P is microchips, it's more expensive and more delicate (but it's also designed to be more reparable).

In this photo, the third buttons are on the top-edge of the Judge Box. You work the facing buttons with your thumbs, and the top-edge buttons with your index fingers.


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## TrueJim (Apr 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> Are the sensors not marked for location?



It's not just the sensors, it's also the transmitters. Each ring will have several sizes of hogus available. If a size 4 fighter enters the ring, you'll take the transmitter out of whatever the last hogu was, and put the transmitter into the size 4 hogu. The transmitters fit into little pouches in the hogus and helmets. If both hogus (Blue and Red) are being swapped out, it's an easy mistake to put the Blue transmitter into the Red hogu, and vice versa. So as a ref, you're taught to double-check by having each athlete give the other athlete a little love-tap before the match; the ref will turn to the Recorder's stations to see that the Recorder software recorded the love-taps correctly. Once that's done, the ref will signal the human Recorder to reset the software, and the match can begin.


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> It's not just the sensors, it's also the transmitters. Each ring will have several sizes of hogus available. If a size 4 fighter enters the ring, you'll take the transmitter out of whatever the last hogu was, and put the transmitter into the size 4 hogu. The transmitters fit into little pouches in the hogus and helmets. If both hogus (Blue and Red) are being swapped out, it's an easy mistake to put the Blue transmitter into the Red hogu, and vice versa. So as a ref, you're taught to double-check by having each athlete give the other athlete a little love-tap before the match; the ref will turn to the Recorder's stations to see that the Recorder software recorded the love-taps correctly. Once that's done, the ref will signal the human Recorder to reset the software, and the match can begin.



I meant for head/body position, referring to the previous post about getting them mixed and having sensitivity issues.

Sorry, forgot to quote that in my previous post.


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## TrueJim (Apr 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> I meant for head/body position, referring to the previous post about getting them mixed and having sensitivity issue.



Probably what happened in the previous post is that the transmitter that was supposed to go into the helmet went into the hogu, and vice versa. A love-tap to the hogu would have detected this. 

Regarding sensitivity, the system gets recalibrated throughout the day depending on the weight-class of the current event. It's assumed that heavyweights are hitting harder than featherweights. Whether you're using Daedo or KP&P, you have to recalibrate the hogu for the weight class. Whether you're using Daedo (magnets) or KP&P (NFC), those proximity sensors (magnets or NFC) are also augmented by load sensors in the hogu (I don't know much about how these work -- I'd like to learn more) that detect impact. The load sensor in KP&P covers the entire hogu (as it should) but the load sensor in a Daedo hogu covers only part of the hogu (boo!). Calibration is less of a problem for KP&P because the load sensor covers the entire hogu. Calibration is more of a problem for Daedo because you have to make the load sensor (a) sensitive enough to detect impact even when the load sensor is not directly under the kicking foot, but (b) if you make it too sensitive it'll detect even light taps instead of actual hits -- there's a Goldilocks aspect to calibrating Daedo hogus that's less of a problem for KP&P hogus.


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## pdg (Apr 25, 2018)

So in essence it's really a training or procedural problem.

If it's an identical sensor used for each location but simply calibrated for that location and desired level of impact - then you shouldn't get them in the wrong place...

If it's a case of having a bunch of precalibrated sensors to choose from then I suggest a bit of masking tape and a marker


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## TrueJim (Apr 25, 2018)

pdg said:


> So in essence it's really a training or procedural problem.



Largely true, yes.



pdg said:


> If it's an identical sensor used for each location but simply calibrated for that location and desired level of impact - then you shouldn't get them in the wrong place...



I'm not positive about this, but I think age of the hogu and sensors plays a role too. A new hogu is stiffer, worn batteries are weaker, etc. In principle you are correct, but in practice you'll see hogus that detect a hit too easily, or detect hard hits not at all. (This is especially true of Daedo, less true of KP&P.)


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## skribs (Apr 25, 2018)

Thing is, they did pre-test the hogus and STILL made mistakes about half the time.


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## Rough Rider (May 1, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> In this photo, the third buttons are on the top-edge of the Judge Box. You work the facing buttons with your thumbs, and the top-edge buttons with your index fingers.



That device looks a lot better than what we use.  I can't seem to find a picture of it, so I guess it's not very common.  The system actually uses two controllers; one in each hand.  Each one is shaped like a pistol grip.  There is a button on top that you press down on with your thumb.  That is the 2-point button.  There is another button on the front that you squeeze with your index finger.  That is the 1-point button.  As I said before, this setup worked well under the old rules- top button for head, bottom button for body.  Now we have to quickly press top then bottom for 3 points, top twice for 4 points.  The 3 point is tricky, because if one judge does top-bottom, another does bottom-top, and the third judge misses the point, there is no score.  I really don't know what we're going to do for a 5-point shot.


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## TrueJim (May 1, 2018)

Rough Rider said:


> That device looks a lot better than what we use.  I can't seem to find a picture of it, so I guess it's not very common.  The system actually uses two controllers; one in each hand.  Each one is shaped like a pistol grip.  .



I can't find a photo of that either. I've used it before. I actually like it. I think that system is called Ringmaster? It's only used in smaller tournaments generally, because it's not a WT-approved system, as I recall. It's older too. I'm not sure if it's still being sold. 

I like the two-pistol-grips because I can drop my hands low on either side of my body, in a comfortable position. I tend to lean left and right a lot in my chair when I judge, and I find a two-handed controller to be less comfortable when I lean.


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

TrueJim said:


> I can't find a photo of that either. I've used it before. I actually like it. I think that system is called Ringmaster? It's only used in smaller tournaments generally, because it's not a WT-approved system, as I recall. It's older too. I'm not sure if it's still being sold.
> 
> I like the two-pistol-grips because I can drop my hands low on either side of my body, in a comfortable position. I tend to lean left and right a lot in my chair when I judge, and I find a two-handed controller to be less comfortable when I lean.


It appears to not be available: Ring Master electronic scoring system


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## Gerry Seymour (May 1, 2018)

Rough Rider said:


> That device looks a lot better than what we use.  I can't seem to find a picture of it, so I guess it's not very common.  The system actually uses two controllers; one in each hand.  Each one is shaped like a pistol grip.  There is a button on top that you press down on with your thumb.  That is the 2-point button.  There is another button on the front that you squeeze with your index finger.  That is the 1-point button.  As I said before, this setup worked well under the old rules- top button for head, bottom button for body.  Now we have to quickly press top then bottom for 3 points, top twice for 4 points.  The 3 point is tricky, because if one judge does top-bottom, another does bottom-top, and the third judge misses the point, there is no score.  I really don't know what we're going to do for a 5-point shot.








This one?


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## Rough Rider (May 1, 2018)

gpseymour said:


> This one?



Yep


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## TrueJim (May 2, 2018)

The ones I've used have two buttons in the thumb area, and one at the trigger finger. But otherwise they look like that.


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