# why



## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?


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## Bill Mattocks (Aug 31, 2009)

thecrow said:


> this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?



I am just an MA newbie, so feel free to disregard this.

First reason - to gauge the student's ability to deal with stress, pain, and pressure.

Second reason - to get the student used to taking a hit.  Uke is part of MA training.

Third reason - to get the student to take the lesson seriously be demonstrating how effective the method being taught is, even at lower power (and trust me, most of them are demonstrating at a VERY low power and slow speed even if the student is being bounced around like a rag doll.  If they applied full power, the student would be out cold).

In my dojo, learning to hit requires being hit in return.  We do not use full power, nor do we hit to injure.  But we do not aim away from the target, and when sparring or practicing self-defense techniques, if the uke doesn't block, deflect, or dodge, the uke gets hit.  If it's a good hard punch, then it hurts some.

I don't particularly enjoy it when I am the demo for my sensei and I end up with a nice set of bruises the next day.  But it is a necessary part of training, I accept that, and I move on.  Pain is weakness leaving the body.  If I thought my sensei was a sadist, I'd leave - after all, I am there voluntarily.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 31, 2009)

any teacher that doesnt hit thier students is in fact ROBBING those students.

here is why

two things that keep someone from defending themselves are:
1) fear of pain
2) inability to handle pain

those are two different things

1) fear of pain- hey, no one likes to feel pain, right? thats normal, but FEAR of pain can make you less likely to defend yourself. Your instructor hits you to let you know that you wont DIE from pain. Once you learn not to fear pain, you can act without the fear holding you back

2) inability to handle pain- even if you are not afraid of it, tolerance to pain must be learned, and cultivated. In the real world, you WILL get hit, if you are not used to it, the shock of pain can cause you to freeze and in that moment, the fight is lost. getting hit builds your pain tolerance so you can defend yourself effectivly without freezing up.


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## Carol (Aug 31, 2009)

Are we talking about an appropriate pounding, such as instructors hitting students that can take some pain (even if they may not like it at the time)?

Or are we talking about an inappropriate pounding, such as a black belt pounding on a white belt that hasn't learned how to defend himself/herself?


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## MJS (Aug 31, 2009)

thecrow said:


> this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?


 
Its one thing to use controlled contact, but its another to literally beat the crap out of them.  As an example....we recently had our Arnis camp.  I was one that was called up a few times over the 3 days, to demo a tech. with the insts. that were teaching the camp.  There was one night when we were working joint locks.  I have to say that it was one of the most painful things that I had experienced in quite some time.  I literally felt that if my fingers were tweaked a hair more, they'd break.  Was this bad intent on the teachers part?  Was he setting out to hurt me?  No, of course not.  

Keep in mind, the martial arts, are going to involve contact.  IMO, if people can't handle the contact, they should start looking for something else to do.  I should be able to hit someone in the ribs when doing a tech. and not have to worry about them crying like a baby.  Again, I'm not intending to break their ribs, but my God, you gotta have contact.


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## thecrow (Aug 31, 2009)

i see, but could i sway any of you bit from this point of view?

what if the student trained for joint locks and other types of blows, and the instructor never hit the student? what if you set up training for pain and training to take blows?

i see your point i do, but i still think it is unnecessary.

shaolin monks train to take blows. why not the rest? i have never seen a shaolin monk hit a student, not saying it didn't happen just saying i have never seen it.

my teacher,(who is not a shaolin monk) never hit me not one time, and i respect him a great deal, and honor him, and new i did not want to be hit by him. a father doesn't hit his child, maybe a spanking if he is out of line, but he doesn't.
i trained for pain and hit my self with a two by 4, base ball bats, bowling balls,weights, a car once( it was rolling not in gear to clear that up) you name i have probably  hit my self with it, did my teacher suggest this no, in fact he said don't do it, just don't get hit, but i needed the just in case, maybe i am a bit crazy but so are the shaolin monks cause i saw them do it, my point is, if you teach right your student will correct his weakness, he will seek them out and make them strengths, isn't this a better way? plus less law suits, lol
my question is, isn't there a better way?


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## Twin Fist (Aug 31, 2009)

no there isnt

there is no way to train for getting hit other than to get hit

if you have never been hit, you WILL freeze up when you do get hit, and on the street, you WILL get hit

sorry, but IMO you were not trained for self defense


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## LawDog (Aug 31, 2009)

Instructor insecurity.
During a demo there is no reason to kick the crap out of any student. Teaching a student how to take a hit is done in the class room only.


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## Twin Fist (Aug 31, 2009)

i think he means in class Lawdog


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## mwd0818 (Aug 31, 2009)

There is a definite difference between blasting a student to showcase ego or power and demonstrating and teaching a technique.  Martial arts are about fighting and part of fighting is getting hit.  Doesn't have to be hard, but the analogy of a parent and a child is flawed.  A parent teaches their child how to live, to think, morals, etc.  A parent, to be a good teacher of these things, should lead by example, challenge their child and, when lines are crossed, bring those life lessons to the forefront without sugar-coating them.  Teaching a child about financial responsibility means letting the kid miss out on something because he blew his money on something else.  It probably doesn't mean him getting evicted and living on the street the first time he tries to get his own place, but a parent who bails him out every time paychecks don't meet is failing in the role of being a parent.

Similarly, a martial art instructor who doesn't help a student understand, at least to some degree, the level of violence that is inherent in conflict is to leave them woefully ill-prepared for real-life and real world situations.

Beating a student - no.  But slowly developing a tolerance over time is crucial.


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## LawDog (Sep 1, 2009)

Twin Fist,
He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.


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## Xinglu (Sep 1, 2009)

LawDog said:


> Twin Fist,
> He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.



I guess the follow up question here is, where is the demo and what is the nature of the hitting?

Is it a demo of the tech during class during teaching?  Is it a public demo?

Is the hitting full force?  1/4 force?  Just enough to sting, but not enough to bruise? Is this done to children with the same force as adults?

With out more information, it is impossible to tell if this is abuse or just some old school tough love teaching.


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## Nomad (Sep 1, 2009)

LawDog said:


> Twin Fist,
> He does say demo. To many Instructors blast a student a student to show off.



This was my first thought on the topic also.  A combination of Ego (wanting to look good in front of the crowd) and in some cases, a lack of belief in their technique (so they need to prove it by hurting the person they're demonstrating on).

In my book, there's a big difference between teaching someone how to take a hit and really hurting them (especially when they've volunteered to let you perform a technique on them in the first place).  The first is part of training, the second has no place in the dojo, IMO.  If you don't have sufficient control to apply a technique without really hurting your (compliant) uke, you have no business teaching it to others.


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## zepedawingchun (Sep 1, 2009)

thecrow said:


> this may have been covered, by why do some teacher knock the crap out of there student in a demo?


 
To scare the audience away from wanting to joining their masochistic arts, er, I mean martial arts school.


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## Twin Fist (Sep 1, 2009)

Lawdog, 
we are pretty much on the same page. If it is demo'ing a techniques IN CLASS, then by all means, make the student BELIEVE in the techbique

in a public demo, no need to do that. The un-educated audience wont know any better so there is no need to blast.


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## MJS (Sep 1, 2009)

thecrow said:


> i see, but could i sway any of you bit from this point of view?
> 
> what if the student trained for joint locks and other types of blows, and the instructor never hit the student? what if you set up training for pain and training to take blows?
> 
> ...


 
Umm...not sure what it is you're saying here.  As I said, there is a difference between putting someone in the ER and hard contact.  If you're dealing with locks, the person applying them should be able to put them on, where the uke feels it, but not to the point where you're going to dislocate, break, etc.  

Maybe I'm not following you...are you suggesting that there should be NO contact at all?  If that is what you're saying, them IMHO, the martial arts are not for you or anyone else that is anti contact.  

If you're training for self defense, and you experience no contact, ever, in the dojo, then God help you if you need to defend yourself on the street.


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## MJS (Sep 1, 2009)

Twin Fist said:


> Lawdog,
> we are pretty much on the same page. If it is demo'ing a techniques IN CLASS, then by all means, make the student BELIEVE in the techbique
> 
> in a public demo, no need to do that. The un-educated audience wont know any better so there is no need to blast.


 
My thoughts exactly.  There should still be some contact but not to the point where the people in the demo are being seriously injured.


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## bigmoe (Sep 1, 2009)

Its not reallistic to punch air you need to feel good contact some times.


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 3, 2009)

ok, i wouldn't be the kempo guy i am today, had i never punched in, and felt some of the sting, with control mind you, on the techniques the various masters i have worked with.
to me, it seems, you learn what moves do what, and setup for the next move, etc., etc,
I am not a sadist, but understand techniques in the air, do need some practical applications as well, But, when working out with someone, make "Light contact", don't just unleash "Hell" on the poor friendo just punching in/grabbing/holding/choking/weapon swinging!

I would suggest getting a "Bob" sparring pro, although they range from $100 to 229$, man, you have alot of Human targets, especially the head!
Sine i have been working out with the "Bob" 3 times a week, about half speed, my targeting for "Areas of oppurtunity" has increased "Tremendously"!!!!
Cheers!

http://www.securityprousa.com/bobsppamaart.html


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 3, 2009)

shaolinmonkmark said:


> ok, i wouldn't be the kempo guy i am today, had i never punched in, and felt some of the sting, with control mind you, on the techniques the various masters i have worked with.
> to me, it seems, you learn what moves do what, and setup for the next move, etc., etc,
> I am not a sadist, but understand techniques in the air, do need some practical applications as well, But, when working out with someone, make "Light contact", don't just unleash "Hell" on the poor friendo just punching in/grabbing/holding/choking/weapon swinging!
> 
> ...


 


when you get comfortable, throw clothes and a hat/shades on him! now it is harder to hit the targets!


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## kungfu penguin (Sep 3, 2009)

during a demo  i was a part of  the instructor missed his block and proceeded to pound the crapola out of me to prove a point  i threw the punch  he missed and i paid for it   i heard seagal  does that to his stuntmen all the time    i also knew a girl who would forget she was in a demo and think she was in a war! and litteraly eat you up  you were limping for weeks after a demo with her!  yikes!


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## TigerCraneGuy (Sep 3, 2009)

I believe that some form of contact is essential during both demos and application practice (e.g. Kenpo technique line).

In my limited experience, contact:

1) Enables practitioners to test the effectiveness of techniques practiced in the air;

2) Ensures that when you actually hit something, your reverse punch, backfist, knife-hand etc. won't come apart like a cream puff;

3) Teaches the person on the receving end (the uke) to ride the shot and minimise injury (note: I don't mean stand there and take it, but 'roll' with the force of the blow);

4) Provides invaluable insight to the uke in that he or she can feel what it's like to be hit, and therefore, understand how to hit someone to achieve a similar effect.

Moreover, simulated attacks (the initial assault) should be as realistic as possible, otherwise you each other of the opportunity to test key attributes such as speed, power, timing and body mechanics.  Instead of punching near the chest, really try to punch them IN the chest, but with deliberate control. This is how I learnt to execute the off-angling move in Leaping Crane; get hit a few times and you learn real fast, with only a bit of a sting and a bruised ego to show for it (shrug).

Lastly, I believe that injuries often occur when:

1) Either party (attacker, defender) loses control (in which case, they need to be read the riot act!);

2) Either party is not concentrating and does something completely unrehearsed (riot act again!); or

3) The uke does not dummy correctly (doesn't concave for a rib or stomach shot, doesn't leap back when kicked in the groin, doesn't move his or her leg out of the way of an incoming sidekick).

Just my two cents FWIW.

And oh yeah, imho, the girl who always forgets she's in a demo... she needs to be severely reprimanded.  What we do is already dangerous enough; loss of control is therefore inexcusable.

TCG


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## Danjo (Sep 4, 2009)

Hitting oneself and getting hit by others is different. Getting hit actually prepares you better.

You have to train to get past that "freeze" that occurs when you get hit unless you train to overcome it. This doesn't happen when you are conditioning yourself.

Also, the student needs to be confident that the technique you are showing him/her will work. Only way to do that is to let them feel it. Or at least enough of it to see it's effectiveness.

Plus, if my instructor didn't hit me when I was punching in, I'd think he was calling me a wimp or something. But then that's Kajukenbo,

*"The workout isn't over till there's blood on the floor!"*---Sijo Adriano D. Emperado (Founder of Kajukenbo).

It's in our DNA.


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## LawDog (Sep 4, 2009)

Twin Fist,
Agreed. 
I do believe that when you show a technique within a class room setting then using controlled contact is ok. Much like in the Jujitsu / Judo systems Kempo students must believe that the technique will do what it was intended to do. When showing a joint lock there must be some pain received or the student / student base will not confidence in that technique or even the Instructors ability.
However many an instructor will try to "impress" instead of instruct.
Many of highly experienced dojo "Martial Artists" have folded in street confrontation because they never have experienced the real pain of blunt force trauma.
:boxing:


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## Twin Fist (Sep 4, 2009)

so very true




LawDog said:


> Twin Fist,
> Agreed.
> I do believe that when you show a technique within a class room setting then using controlled contact is ok. Much like in the Jujitsu / Judo systems Kempo students must believe that the technique will do what it was intended to do. When showing a joint lock there must be some pain received or the student / student base will not confidence in that technique or even the Instructors ability.
> However many an instructor will try to "impress" instead of instruct.
> ...


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## just2kicku (Sep 4, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Hitting oneself and getting hit by others is different. Getting hit actually prepares you better.
> 
> You have to train to get past that "freeze" that occurs when you get hit unless you train to overcome it. This doesn't happen when you are conditioning yourself.
> 
> ...




And that is why we used to pound on each other. In order to give a blow you have to be able to take a blow. 

Haha, most of the time the workout still wasn't over Danjo, they just stopped long enough for everyone to go outside and rub dirt on their cuts. Lol


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## Danjo (Sep 4, 2009)

just2kicku said:


> And that is why we used to pound on each other. In order to give a blow you have to be able to take a blow.
> 
> Haha, most of the time the workout still wasn't over Danjo, they just stopped long enough for everyone to go outside and rub dirt on their cuts. Lol


 
Ain't that the truth! I remember the first time my nose got split wide open sparring from a ridgehand strike. I got the bleeding to stop and taped it, and Prof. Bishop said, "Is it still bleeding? No? Okay, you're sparring Mike now." and back out I went.

Good times.


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## marlon (Sep 5, 2009)

kungfu penguin said:


> during a demo  i was a part of  the instructor missed his block and proceeded to pound the crapola out of me to prove a point  i threw the punch  he missed and i paid for it   i heard seagal  does that to his stuntmen all the time    i also knew a girl who would forget she was in a demo and think she was in a war! and litteraly eat you up  you were limping for weeks after a demo with her!  yikes!



 I make it a point to let the students know that if they hit me in class that it is my fault not thiers. Sometimes I look away as I am explaining a technique and get hit sometimes hard, it is always anreminder to me to pat attention and never the student to blame oh and if I get hammered in the course of training techniques and or reaction drills most of the time I just compliment them on a good move and sometimes I will say that such contact is good on me but some others might find it too much


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## Kembudo-Kai Kempoka (Sep 5, 2009)

LawDog said:


> Instructor insecurity.
> During a demo there is no reason to kick the crap out of any student. Teaching a student how to take a hit is done in the class room only.


 
I dunno. Some students are tools, and deserve to get the crap knocked out of them. Keeps the uppity ones in place.


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## Tez3 (Sep 5, 2009)

Danjo said:


> Ain't that the truth! I remember the first time my nose got split wide open sparring from a ridgehand strike. I got the bleeding to stop and taped it, and Prof. Bishop said, "Is it still bleeding? No? Okay, you're sparring Mike now." and back out I went.
> 
> Good times.


 
sounds like us! My instructor knocked my tooth out, well it was a crown, my dentist had given up trying to repair the real one because of my sparring lol! I have to add this was going on over a few years lol, still gets knocked out now and again but hey thats what superglue is for.


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## Xinglu (Sep 5, 2009)

Tez3 said:


> sounds like us! My instructor knocked my tooth out, well it was a crown, my dentist had given up trying to repair the real one because of my sparring lol! I have to add this was going on over a few years lol, still gets knocked out now and again but hey thats what superglue is for.



LOL sounds like a great lesson as to why we don't block with our mouth!


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## Kenpo17 (Sep 11, 2009)

When I demonstrate on a student, I hit them no doubt, but I don't knock the crap out of them.  I hit them hard enough they feel a sting or so they have told me they feel a sting.  This doesn't mean I am going to beat that student up, rather I am teaching them how to take a hit without actually beating them up.


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## Danjo (Sep 12, 2009)

I'd rather have the student get used to getting hit in a controlled environment so that they don't freeze from the shock and pain of it in a real situation. If they get hit in the school and have to fight through the pain, then hopefully they will be able to do so elsewhere. We're still training, and not fighting, but we train hard for a reason.


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## MJS (Sep 12, 2009)

danjo said:


> i'd rather have the student get used to getting hit in a controlled environment so that they don't freeze from the shock and pain of it in a real situation. If they get hit in the school and have to fight through the pain, then hopefully they will be able to do so elsewhere. We're still training, and not fighting, but we train hard for a reason.


 
qft!!!!


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## Jenny_in_Chico (Sep 13, 2009)

On Friday my sensei had a large mixed class of all levels, white through black belts. We spent some time on what he called "conditioning"...essentially standing there while your partner hit or kicked you, or you traded blocks, over and over again. The recipient had the option of turning the intensity up or down with a thumb signal. It was the first time I had ever participated in something like this. Strangely enough, even though it hurt, I really enjoyed it. I discovered that my body is harder and tougher than I imagined, and that with training it will become even more so.


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## Danjo (Sep 14, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> On Friday my sensei had a large mixed class of all levels, white through black belts. We spent some time on what he called "conditioning"...essentially standing there while your partner hit or kicked you, or you traded blocks, over and over again. The recipient had the option of turning the intensity up or down with a thumb signal. It was the first time I had ever participated in something like this. Strangely enough, even though it hurt, I really enjoyed it. I discovered that my body is harder and tougher than I imagined, and that with training it will become even more so.


 
It can get to be addicting for certain.


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## Josh Oakley (Sep 14, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> On Friday my sensei had a large mixed class of all levels, white through black belts. We spent some time on what he called "conditioning"...essentially standing there while your partner hit or kicked you, or you traded blocks, over and over again. The recipient had the option of turning the intensity up or down with a thumb signal. It was the first time I had ever participated in something like this. Strangely enough, even though it hurt, I really enjoyed it. I discovered that my body is harder and tougher than I imagined, and that with training it will become even more so.


 
I'm totally going to use this in a class!


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## kaizasosei (Sep 14, 2009)

Five possibilities i can see:
1.  They are demonstrating the power of the techniques.
2.  They are demonstrating the skill and flow of the techniques and principles.
3.  They're dicks that are just trying to demonstrate to themselves and force the students to believe they are good without using skill.
4.  The volunteer is a dick and did something to warrant getting beaten.
5.  The volunteer is challenging by skill level or threat level and the masters force becomes a little excessive.


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## kaizasosei (Sep 14, 2009)

sorry for doubling and rereading my last post, sorry for the vulgar expressions...i can think of one more reason; the instructor want to make the pupil tougher- one of the quickest ways of teaching if the force is appropriate and the pupil able to handle it.


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## just2kicku (Sep 14, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> On Friday my sensei had a large mixed class of all levels, white through black belts. We spent some time on what he called "conditioning"...essentially standing there while your partner hit or kicked you, or you traded blocks, over and over again. The recipient had the option of turning the intensity up or down with a thumb signal. It was the first time I had ever participated in something like this. Strangely enough, even though it hurt, I really enjoyed it. I discovered that my body is harder and tougher than I imagined, and that with training it will become even more so.



We do the same thing! Its a buttload of fun. We meet inward block for inward block, outward for outward and reverse punches to the stomach simultaneously. We also add the inner and outer thigh leg kicks


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## shaolinmonkmark (Sep 14, 2009)

Jenny_in_Chico said:


> On Friday my sensei had a large mixed class of all levels, white through black belts. We spent some time on what he called "conditioning"...essentially standing there while your partner hit or kicked you, or you traded blocks, over and over again. The recipient had the option of turning the intensity up or down with a thumb signal. It was the first time I had ever participated in something like this. Strangely enough, even though it hurt, I really enjoyed it. I discovered that my body is harder and tougher than I imagined, and that with training it will become even more so.


 

we still do that!!!
LOL!!


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