# Techniques And Conditioned Fighters



## MJS (Jul 18, 2008)

There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring.  The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.

So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there.  Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes.   Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape.  These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.  

It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective.  So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that?  Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?


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## celtic_crippler (Jul 18, 2008)

The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.


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## Blindside (Jul 18, 2008)

Alot (most) body shots aren't one-shot KOs, that doesn't mean they aren't effective.  

Did it keep the other guy off of you?
Did it keep the other guy on the defensive?
Did it make him suck a little wind?
Did it make him start to drop his hands?

It is sort of like a leg kick, you do a Muay Thai style leg kick to someone who isn't expecting/trained against it, and chances are you will buckle that leg.  Do it to someone who is mentally trained to take the punishment and it won't have a huge effect (caveat: unless you wind up doing structural damage of course), that doesn't mean that shot isn't effective, alot of things aren't "effective" against well-conditioned fighters used to taking lots of punishment.

Lamont


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## stickarts (Jul 18, 2008)

It's a combination of the variables. The skill and conditioning of one fighter vs. the other.
A fighter in great condition is one obstacle to overcome. When I first started training, I had little experience but I was in very good shape. That helped me to do well against other beginners and some intermediate levels but I still wasn't able to overcome experienced fighters until I became more experienced.
Its all about determining your opponents advantages and disadvantages and neutalizing their advantages.


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## zDom (Jul 18, 2008)

I have unintentionally put the hurts on some very big, well conditioned fighters over the years with well-timed and well-placed kicks. Sometimes THROUGH a hogu.

You can, IMO, SHRINK the vulnerable area around the solar plexus, but there will always remain a dime-sized target that can stun the solar plexus if it is "right on the button."


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## FearlessFreep (Jul 18, 2008)

> Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone ...



body composition plays into whether conditioned or not.  Some pressure point techniques don't work too well against people with a lot of tissue between the skin and the nerve (the technique would work if you could reach the nerve). Wrist techniques are harder against people with big wrists (the technique would work if you could get the wrist in position, but there may be enough body material keeping the wrist from getting to that point...) 

But I don't think that's what you mean, I think you mean mental condition rather than a physical composition


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## MattJ (Jul 18, 2008)

celtic_crippler said:


> The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.


 
Great post, I agree totally. Any technique can work on anyone, if done right and timed right. I have found that hard, low sidekicks to the knee or shin will wreck the base of just about anyone. Works great for what I want it to do.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 18, 2008)

MJS said:


> It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?


 
I am assuming here you are talking about a strike thrown by a conditioned fighter against a conditioned fighter not just a person in good shape.

A fighter is trained to hit and be hit so if those are the conditions then celtic_crippler hit it right on the nose.



celtic_crippler said:


> The proper weapon properly applied to the proper target will render the proper results.


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## Deaf Smith (Jul 18, 2008)

MJS said:


> It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?


 
There are many kinds of variations to each kick. The power side kicks, like the stepthrough, will break a man. Dang near any man (just as Joe Louis.)

Some kicks, like a front round house, don't have much power, or a whipping front kick instead of a thrusting front kick (a power kick).

To find your ability to deliver power with any kick, or punch, you need a good punching bag! There you will find out if your strikes have real power.

But I will say, I know of people near me that will kill you with most of their kicks. They are just that powerful with them. You get out of their way!!!

Deaf


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## Skpotamus (Jul 18, 2008)

I've seen police training videos of people taking bean bag rounds to their .... "overdeveloped" stomachs without it bothering them too much. I think the flab acted as a shock absorber for the round.

When using a Brachial Plexus Origin stun on someone with a lot of flab around their neck, I had to hit it full power, repeatedlly, just to get an effect. On an average person, I usually only have to hit about 1/4 power to create a stun on most people. 

I saw two friends get into a fight, one is 350lbs at about 5'8", the other 200lbs at 5'11" and does Muay Thai. The 200lber punched and kneed the bigger guy in the stomach repeatedly, with the bigger guy not seeming to notice the hits. 

Remember the early UFC's? Keith Hackney vs the 618lb sumo wrestler? Hackney spent the first few minutes throwing sidekicks to the guys hip, stomach and thigh with no effect. He finally knocked the sumo down with a palm heel to the forehead. 

I think body composition makes some targets a lot less accessable to actually getting hurt. A very overweight person can absorb a pretty hard shot to the stomach without taking too much damage from it), by the same token, someone with a lot of muscle around their midsections can take a lot harder hit as well. 

A regular person will buckle on a round kick to the thigh, where someone who does powerlifting might be able to take a few before they go down.

A trained fighter will probably either parry or side step most side kicks and end up behind you.  In MMA, that results in chokes and takedowns.


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## shihansmurf (Jul 19, 2008)

A lot of how effective a give technique is dependent on the target and how it was set up. Catch the person off guard, not allow the to brace for the hit, or somehow prevent them from turning with the impact then most strikes will effectively end most encounters.

With side kicks I find that using a jab-cross combo to raise their hands and distract them is a great set up for a very destructive side kick to lead leg. I'm fond of the shin/thigh area.
The side kick is also outstanding against an opponent that you have pushed away at the break of a clinch.

To find your ability to deliver power with any kick, or punch, you need a good punching bag! There you will find out if your strikes have real power. Deaf Smith

Amen and preach on, man! It isn't possible to get better advice than this on developing power in your strikes.

Mark


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 19, 2008)

I don't think it's just a conditioned fighter issue, though conditioned fighters are one aspect.  No technique will work on everyone, except maybe decapitation.  A kick may work, but in the street one should be prepared to have ZERO effect with a given technique, and follow up accordingly.  One needs to be ready with Plan B, Plan C, and all the way to Plan F!  The thing to prepared for is to NOT lose it because your technique failed and you were too discouraged to follow up.

Physical conditioning, mental toughness/pain resistance, size, mass, even chemical impairment will impact a techniques effectiveness in the street.


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## MJS (Jul 19, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> I am assuming here you are talking about a strike thrown by a conditioned fighter against a conditioned fighter not just a person in good shape.
> 
> A fighter is trained to hit and be hit so if those are the conditions then celtic_crippler hit it right on the nose.


 
I took the word 'conditioned' to mean a person who is in above average shape.  For reference purpose, I'll use a UFC/MMA fighter, ie: Frank Mir, Ken or Frank Shamrock.  

In that other thread I made reference to, I took it as a particular kick, in that case, a side kick, being thrown against a 'conditioned' fighter, not working.  Perhaps I misunderstood the OP in that other thread, but that was the impression I got.  I'm nowhere near in the shape those guys are, so again, I took it as someone who is in average shape, throwing a kick to someone in above average shape.  

Mike


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## MJS (Jul 19, 2008)

IMO, a Martial Artist, putting their physical condition aside, is trained or should be trained, to know what tools they have available to them, how to apply those tools, where to hit on the body to get the most out of the strike and what strike to use for the area we are picking as a target.  

Sure, some shots will get quicker results than others.  Someone mentioned Keith Hackney fighting that huge Sumo guy.  Were those kicks effective?  They didn't seem to stop him, and as it was said, it took a hit to the head to bring the guy down.  On the other hand, Marco Ruas fought Paul Varleans(sp) and repeatedly slammed his thighs with kicks, eventually dropping him.  

Speaking for myself, I don't like to think of any shot as a fight stopper.  I don't put alot of faith in the 1 shot 1 kill mentality although it can and does happen.  I like to use a series of shots, perhaps setting up a target with 1 or 2 others.  I'm 5'10 so trying to hit someone in the face who stands 6'5 may not be the best option.  Then again, I don't care how conditioned someone is, you can't condition your groin.  If I can bring someone down with a groin shot, then perhaps I can get to my original target..the face.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 19, 2008)

MJS said:


> I took it as someone who is in average shape, throwing a kick to someone in above average shape.
> 
> Mike


 
Then, IMO, a strike may not be as effective but that is not to say that what Celtic crippler may not apply. 

A trained fighter is trained a bit harder at taking hits and hitting than the average MA person out there today. However I do know people that are very well trained that are likely not in the same condition as a trained fighter but if they hit one they would likely cause them major problems due to the power of their strikes but then I would not call these people the average MA person that I see in my area either.

So I guess the best answer I can give, IMO, is maybe.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 19, 2008)

Not having ever having been a 'big guy', my training has always been done with the realisation that if I had to fight I would not be doing it in toe-to-toe, 'trading blows' kind of way.

The one time I had to actually defend myself what transpired is exactly as I would have expected.  It's also why altho' I think sparring is great fun and useful in it's own way, it has not got the practical use that many think it has.

I did not mess around trying to punch and kick, dodge and block, in classic movie style.  This was a fight where the consequences of me not getting away were serious - so I broke things.  Three moves and it was over enough for me to run away.

The guy who gets up after you've broken his knee is the one that will beat you.

Conditioning and fitness help for the long haul and for sport fighting and for absorbing the kind of hits you take when someone is not fighting 'seriously' (by which I mean in fear for their life).  It doesn't help at all if someone snaps your elbow or breaks your knee from the side.

Oh and side kicks work just fine for the latter application.  Of course that is just my experience and only from a single incident but the logic seems sounds to me.  If the guy is a big athlete or fat, don't bother punching or kicking him in the stomach - do something that will work regardless.


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## Rich Parsons (Jul 19, 2008)

MJS said:


> There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring.  The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.
> 
> So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there.  Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes.   Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape.  These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.
> 
> It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective.  So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that?  Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?




Mike,

A couple of comments form my experience and observations.

I have trained with a guy that you could kick in the abs with a side kick and he would just take it. He was that solid and in that shape. But, not everyone is in the shape so it might be better on others. 

I have also seen some pretty big guys that are FAT and really out of shape. I saw a guy do a turning kick and the guy just took it in the FAT and kept coming. When he got to me. I kicked him in the knees. He looked at me got mad and stated I was cheating. I laughed and kicked him again and when he tired to move to avoid the pain, I rushed him and knocked him down where he then tried to crawl under a car for protection. (* Only his head would fit nothing else would have. *)  Many people were really impressed with how powerful my kicks must have been to get him down. They were not that great of kicks. They were average even counting my adrenaline. But it was an area he had no padding and also was easy to injure and he may have had knee pain already from his weight. 

So as in anything, I used my knowledge of the body and my skill set as others at that time in my training and even now could have kicked him in the head, but that was not in my options. So,  used techniques that I knew and could affect him in a manner I was intending.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 19, 2008)

Sukerkin said:


> The one time I had to actually defend myself what transpired is exactly as I would have expected. It's also why altho' I think sparring is great fun and useful in it's own way, it has not got the practical use that many think it has.
> 
> I did not mess around trying to punch and kick, dodge and block, in classic movie style. This was a fight where the consequences of me not getting away were serious - so I broke things. Three moves and it was over enough for me to run away.
> 
> ...


 
Agreed, that is why back in my security day when the professional wrestler charged at me I simply side stepped a tripped him. I was not going to go to the ground with him that was for damn sure. I'm 6'1' tall and at that time I was about 220 and training rather hard, but he was about 6'5" tall and a bit heavier than I

He fell down and laid there for a bit apparently linoleum on top of concrete was a bit harder than what he was use to.


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## Sukerkin (Jul 20, 2008)

Ouch! :rei:.


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## zDom (Jul 21, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> A trained fighter will probably either parry or side step most side kicks and end up behind you.  In MMA, that results in chokes and takedowns.



Oh really? Is that what always happens?

Maybe this is only the result if a fighter not trained in kicking tries a side kick.

I might say that a trained kicker would impale the would-be parry/sidestepper resulting in a knockdown and stunned solar plexus. But then, I would just be making claim based on bias when in reality there are a LOT of factors which determine what really ends up happening when two fighters face off.


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## Xue Sheng (Jul 21, 2008)

zDom said:


> Oh really? Is that what always happens?


 
Well no.... it kind of didn't happen that way in the Cung Le's last fight against Frank Shamrock.

Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick.... and I believe it was a side kick too. Frank did not parry or side step and go for a choke or a takedown.


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## jks9199 (Jul 21, 2008)

Xue Sheng said:


> Well no.... it kind of didn't happen that way in the Cung Le's last fight against Frank Shamrock.
> 
> Cung Le broke Frank Shamrock's arm with a kick.... and I believe it was a side kick too. Frank did not parry or side step and go for a choke or a takedown.


Shamrock tried to block Le's round kick with his arm in a weak position, and the kick caught it right...


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## Skpotamus (Jul 21, 2008)

zDom said:


> Oh really? Is that what always happens?
> 
> Maybe this is only the result if a fighter not trained in kicking tries a side kick.
> 
> I might say that a trained kicker would impale the would-be parry/sidestepper resulting in a knockdown and stunned solar plexus. But then, I would just be making claim based on bias when in reality there are a LOT of factors which determine what really ends up happening when two fighters face off.


 
No it's not what always happens hence me using the word PROBABLY, but when it has happened, it's been pretty catastrophic.  

See Evan Tanner vs Tito Ortiz for an example of someone throwing a sidekick, having it parryed and getting slammed unconsious.  

Travis Fulton parried Jeremy Bullock's flying side kick in a mma competition and then broke his back with a slam.  (funny story, Fulton agreed to not strike during the fight while his opponent could)

Mark Smith parried a step through side kick by Rich Santoro, got his back, took him down and armbarred him at a HooknShoot Rising, I beleive Santoro was a fairly high ranking Hapkidoka at the time.  

Saying Frank Shamrock couldn't parry all the sidekicks from the best sidekicker in San Shou isn't saying a lot.  Especially since Frank Shamrock has never been accused of having good standup skills.  He did however get Le's back at one point when Le missed a spinning side kick (15 seconds in  



, and got his back again when le missed a lead leg sidekick at 1:25 (shamrock sidestepped), he didn't follow up with anything, which was odd since Shamrock didnt' seem to try to take the fight to the ground at all, but he got Le's back several times) .  His arm got broken because he was blocking all head height round kicks with a single forearm... or his head.  

Take a look at 



 a shootboxing match between Jens Pulver (MMA fighter known for his standup skills) vs Dai Chang Liang.  Liang throws quite a few sidekicks at pulver, most of which get parried and see pulver stepping in and countering effectively.  When the sidekick does land, pulver seems completely unfazed.  Liang is the 2004 Sanda World Champion btw.  





  Bas Rutten vs Jason Delucia, Delucia used the side kick quite a bit early in his career, then quit doing it.  7 seconds in, Delucia throws a sidekick, Rutten slaps it aside, steps in with a combo.  at 1:00, Delucia throws a sidekick, it's parried and he gets a round kick to the head.  At 1:07 he throws a high side kick to the head, Bas parries and steps in with a body combo.At 2:21, Rutten eats three sidekicks to the body in a row, and responds with a round kick to the head.  At 3:02 Delucia tries another sidekick, that gets parried, and he takes another vicious body combo that puts him down.  At 3:30, again Delucia goes to the body with a sidekick, which gets parried and he gets combo'ed on again resulting in a second knockdown.  

Keep watching that fight, you get the idea...


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## zDom (Jul 22, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> Saying Frank Shamrock couldn't parry all the sidekicks from the best sidekicker in San Shou isn't saying a lot.



But Le is not just, IMO, "the best sidekicker in San Shou," but one of the ONLY examples of a skilled kicker I've seen in this type of sport.

Those other guys have no business trying a kick they aren't really proficient at using.

There is more to being a skilled kicker than learning the basic mechanics of a kick. A skilled kicker knows WHEN to throw it so it is effective.

Yea, there is no doubt, that unskilled kickers flinging their legs out in the general direction of their opponent are going to end up with a poor result.

Somebody who really knows how to use their feet will not just keep throwing kicks in the hopes that one will hit their opponent. They set them up &#8212; with their hands &#8212; and open up a real opportunity.

If they are committing their hands to parrying body kicks, they are leaving their heads wide open for punishing head strikes.

That is why I keep saying you aren't seeing skilled kickers in these events. They are all at the beginner level: swing your leg and hope it hits!

Skilled kickers create openings for their kicks; they link their hands with their kicks and their kicks with their hand strikes.

Hand feint + body kick. Body kick feint + hand to head strike.

Becoming a skilled kicker takes a significant time investment, however, so you just aren't going to see many in these types of events.


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## Skpotamus (Jul 22, 2008)

So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in?  MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.  

If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue?  Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.


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## sgtmac_46 (Jul 23, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in?  MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.
> 
> If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue?  Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.


 True......though I would caution against judging the effectiveness of every technique against MMA.  Though it's generally a decent thermostat of technique, there are elements that exist in the real world that do not exist in MMA, such as the general element of surprise.  Two men in an MMA fight know there is going to be a fight, when it starts and when it stops.  

A man on the street may use a technique on another man on the street that is extremely successful if he is unprepared for it that would not so effect someone standing across the ring waiting for the 'lets get it on' command.

So while MMA is a decent laboratory for what works and what doesn't, it is not the complete end all.


An example you might ask?  Kicking another man in the testicles while he's not expecting it...then hitting him in the head with a pool cue......highly effective techniques not utilized in MMA......successful even against 'conditioned' athletes.


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## zDom (Jul 23, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> So where are all these highly skilled side kickers ...



There really aren't that many highly skilled side kickers, from what I've seen out there  I've seen a LOT of people around here try or make a life out of martial arts. Maybe a couple thousand.

Of those, I figure about a dozen really "got it" and developed a really great sidekick (beyond the mechanics to the point that they had the timing to USE it well).



Skpotamus said:


> ... and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.



Just because someone is a great fighter doesn't mean they want to fight in competitions. A lot of people train hard so they DON'T get beat up. Getting into a ring kind of defeats that purpose: no matter how good you are, you are GOING to get beat on at times. 

As for the money, it really isn't there unless you take a long, hard path to the top. And even then, it isn't that great.

I mean, if Dana called me up today and said, "Scott, I'll give you $200,000 to get in the ring and show me what you can do" I suppose I might give it a shot. For that kind of money I could take time off of work, train to the level I'd need to be at to get in the ring, and even if I got beat on, I could pay for the medical bills and improve the quality of my life.

But he's not going to DO that. Naturally, they want fighters to prove themselves. How many fights do you have to go through before you even get to a $10,000 purse? A dozen?

And then there is the whole question of, "Do I really want to make my living beating people up and getting beat up?" And risk an injury that may take years to rehabilitate?

I spent years and years developing my kicking ability. I really don't want to get into a situation where I have somebody kicking at my knees for 15 minutes.

So I figure a lot of the guys who took the time to develop a great sidekick feel the same way about THEIR knees and, if they DO want to get into full contact, they pick a rule set that only allows kicks at the waist and above.

Cung Le is a trooper. I think you may get a couple other guys like him over the years: someone who had the talent and training to develop solid kicking AND decided they wanted to compete in full contact AND they wanted to risk letting people kick their knees.

But I'm thinking you won't get very many like him.





Skpotamus said:


> If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue?  Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.



You may be right about this.

Or rather, there is too much of a required time investment to GET a sidekick that is highly effective.

If your goal is to get in an MMA ring while you are still young enough to recover from injuries, spending 3 to 6 years honing a sidekick may not be the best route to success when there are other techniques that have a better time invested-to-payoff ratio.

Heck, I can teach someone to do a low section roundhouse in 10 minutes. Give me two weeks with them and I can have them kicking as hard as anybody just about anyone I've seen in the pro MMA fights (GSP and Le being notable exceptions )

And learning a front kick would be a great time investment: easy to learn, easy to do from a boxing type stance. Saw a guy use just TWO front kicks in a UFC undercard match couple months back &#8212; was only a fair to poor front kick &#8212; and it messed up his opponent's whole game.


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## zDom (Jul 23, 2008)

BTW, wish I could take the time to find/post some clips of some nice sidekicking in full contact matches.

Maybe I'll get around to that this weekend.

But I wanted to add something: anybody who is sidekicking to someone's abs isn't really using it well. That's as stupid as punching to someone's abs. I was no pro fighter, but even I could eat a sidekick on my abs to some extent if I let it knock me back.

Even around the dojang, where people aren't training to the level pro MMA fighters are, you can see that isn't going to be nearly as effective.

But hit someone right on the solar plexus or on the floating rib on the side of their torso: THEN you will get results.

But again, picking and hitting targets like that takes a lot of training. And timing. i.e., counter a jab with a sidekick right under their arm into their intercostals, for example.


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## MJS (Jul 24, 2008)

Rich Parsons said:


> Mike,
> 
> A couple of comments form my experience and observations.
> 
> ...


 
I"ve had success with a sidekick against what I'd consider an overweight person.  During a sparring session, he came in very aggressive, I timed the kick, and the result was him falling on his rear end.   I've also had poor success with the same kick against someone who was very stocky in his build.  He continued to move forward, which made me have to resort to using something else.  

I guess it all comes down to picking the right target at the right time for the right situation.


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## MJS (Jul 24, 2008)

Skpotamus said:


> So where are all these highly skilled side kickers and what competitions are they fighting in? MMA is currently the highest paying martial sport besides boxing (and only the absolute top fighters in boxing make big money), it would seem that the top fighters would flock to it to make the most money and the greater challenges.
> 
> If only one person in MMA has enough skill to use a technique effectively, wouldn't you agree that it's not a highly effective technique for that venue? Whether due to conditioning of the people being hit (Shamrock didn't seem fazed by all the side kicks he ate to his stomach, ditto Pulver taking all those kicks from the SanDa world champion), or the rules making it too risky (too easy to get the back and initiate chokes, ground attacks, etc), that technique isn't a smart one to invest a lot of time into if it has such a low payoff.


 
Hmm...I have to go with SgtMac 46 on this one.  Too many times, I've had discussions with MMA folks and they've stated the same things that you just did.  So, because X move isn't used by this person, because X move isn't much use in MMA, I'm supposed to disregard that move completely?  Sorry, but I disagree with that.  What works for one person may not work well for someone else, so they're going to disregard it and say its a useless move.  But perhaps I can make it work.  

The odds of everyone in the world being in MMA shape are slim.  Not saying that everyone is fat and out of shape, but I highly doubt the dirtbag thats going to mug me is going to look like Shamrock.  Could it happen? Anythings possible, but I'd say its on the low end.  If by chance I do end up facing someone in that good of shape, I'm not going to continue to do something that doesnt have any effect.  So if I throw a sidekick and it has no effect due to his washboard abs, I'll resort to something else.  

Of course, just because something doesnt have immediate results doesn't mean its no good.  I will go back to Ruas and Varleans.  Repeated kicks from Ruas took an eventual toll.  

Then again, I'm not looking to roll around or fight for 20 min.


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## MJS (Jul 24, 2008)

zDom said:


> There is more to being a skilled kicker than learning the basic mechanics of a kick. A skilled kicker knows WHEN to throw it so it is effective.
> 
> 
> Somebody who really knows how to use their feet will not just keep throwing kicks in the hopes that one will hit their opponent. They set them up  with their hands  and open up a real opportunity.
> ...


 
Great points!!  I'll go back as a reference to my post to Rich regarding my use of the sidekick.  I obviously had some good timing in the first instance, due to the fact that the person I hit landed on their rear.  The other guy...well, despite what I thought was good timing, was countered.  A lesson learned.  

Of course, to re-enforce what you say about timing...unless I missed it, viewing those clips that were posted, I didn't see any of those kicks being set up.  Perhaps if they were, the results would have been different.


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## chinto (Jul 24, 2008)

in a self defense situation I would not use spinning kicks, or kick high ever. to vulnerable to counter attack or other problems that might leave you in real trouble or even cost you your life.  keep it simple, and keep any kicks low!


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## still learning (Jul 25, 2008)

Hello, Good points above! ...just wanted to add this....most kicks will work when the opponent is hit ...at the same time the human body can take lots of punishment and each person will react differently.

Off course anyone who is more condiditon and is great shape and use to take lots of hits will survive better than most people.

A person who is learning boxing...finds the first 6-8 months most punches hurts....after that the body get use to those punishments and it actully hurts very little!  Anyone can condition their body.

That is why "eyes" ,"nose".and most joints are great tarkets....breaking finger and toes....too!  The groin...some people can take a hit..most can't

So againist condition fighters?  ...best to use legs for running instead of kicking.....

Aloha  ( perfer using car for escaping?  ....usually can run faster than man..)


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## JadeDragon3 (Jul 25, 2008)

MJS said:


> There was a discussion here recently in the MMA section on spinning kicks vs. non spinning kicks, and what role they play in the MMA ring. The question of their effectiveness against a conditioned fighter was brought up by another poster in that thread.
> 
> So, it led me to starting this thread, rather than sidetrack the discussion over there. Now, in everyday life, we see people of all shapes and sizes.  Some are very overweight, some are in ok shape and others are in above average shape. These may/may not necessarily be pro fighters, but instead, people who are average Joes.
> 
> It was said that against a well conditioned athlete, a side kick may not be that effective. So, that led me to ask...what are your thoughts on that? Do you feel that there are certain strikes that may not have any effect on someone who is well conditioned or do you feel that the strike that you throw would work, but it will come down to the application and how you apply it?


 
Addressing the comment about the side kick.....I have a pretty strong side kick.  In fact it's my favorite technique to use on someone that is rushing in on me.  I can leg press close to 1000 lbs. so I have a lot of power in it.  I feel comfortable to say that a well planted side kick in the gut or the ribs would stop just about anyone long enough that I could follow up with something more devastating.  I think that any techniques will work on a person, it just depends on where you hit the person at with the technique.


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