# Overcoming the fear of sparring a specific opponent, and my bad habits



## Ivan (Jun 5, 2019)

I am a green belt. I don't know too much about belts in taekwondo, and whether it differs unedrneath separate boards, so I am the third belt you're given under the board WRSA (it goes white, yellow, green etc). As a green belt, I am now allowed to spar more frequently; I now spar (usually) almost every session, and there are 2 sessions each week. I have experience in others arts, including JJJ and Boxing and Capoeira. I am not profecient in any of them, and I quit boxing a while ago because of issues with my coach. I am around the same area (belt) for all of them, but my boxing has helped me a lot to be better in sparring than the usual for a green belt.

However, recently a new person has joined who has kept his 3rd rank black belt in TKD (he was under the same board) and is training to be an assistant instructor. He participates in sparring along with the other black belts, and because I am not a junior (13 or below) I spar against black belts too. Usually, I hold my ground well enough to land a couple of good shots and in some cases dominate the fight (not trying to brag). However, all of the black belts I've sparred up until now in the club were in first rank; they are nothing compared to him!

Now, my fighting stance is the Philly Shell, except I stand a bit more sideways so I'm in a better position ot kick and I'm a smaller target.





I move around. A lot. This is mostly because, of me suffering my first knockout in boxing a while back, trying to block a hook from someone much bigger and stronger than me. The fear of this also causes me a lot of problems with agression and offense in a fight (or lackthereof), me not being able to get myself to punch with my back hand for fear of being too exposed, and whenever I dodge, it's almost always backwards.

Back to new guy, I cannot touch him whatsoever; even if I try to get close, he manages to kick me incredibly hard considering it should be harder for him to use his legs when I'm all up in there, and he also creates and maintains his distance super well. Moreover, he feints his kicks so much and they're so damn quick. He doesn't use his hands at all, and doesn't ever punch.

I have a lot of trouble being offensive against my normal sparring opponents as it is (though I've been overcoming it slowly and made some progress last week) but against the new guy, who is also bigger, faster and older, I simply can't defend or attack. Especially with my bad dodging backwards habit. He punishes me brutally with axe kicks to the head. He is very agressive, arrogant and annoying, but I can't really say anything about it.

How do I overcome these problems and fears? What do I do? Please help. Thanks.


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## Christopher Adamchek (Jun 5, 2019)

If you really dont like you can say anything to your instructor or him, then ask for more sparring drills in match ups rather than free sparring.
Even if he annoys you, ask him for pointers on getting better, it could ease the barrier between the two of you.
Try to spar with other non black belts to boost your moral a bit.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

Im going to say the opposite of christopher. Va3sically you're annoyed that you can't beat him? Then spar him more.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I am a green belt. I don't know too much about belts in taekwondo, and whether it differs unedrneath separate boards, so I am the third belt you're given under the board WRSA (it goes white, yellow, green etc). As a green belt, I am now allowed to spar more frequently; I now spar (usually) almost every session, and there are 2 sessions each week. I have experience in others arts, including JJJ and Boxing and Capoeira. I am not profecient in any of them, and I quit boxing a while ago because of issues with my coach. I am around the same area (belt) for all of them, but my boxing has helped me a lot to be better in sparring than the usual for a green belt.
> 
> However, recently a new person has joined who has kept his 3rd rank black belt in TKD (he was under the same board) and is training to be an assistant instructor. He participates in sparring along with the other black belts, and because I am not a junior (13 or below) I spar against black belts too. Usually, I hold my ground well enough to land a couple of good shots and in some cases dominate the fight (not trying to brag). However, all of the black belts I've sparred up until now in the club were in first rank; they are nothing compared to him!
> 
> ...



There was a similar guy at my dojang.  He was several inches taller than me, in better shape, more experienced, and more naturally talented than me.  He used his length to great advantage and I couldn't even get close enough to try to kick him.

One day I went up to him and said "tell me how to beat you."

He gave me a lot of good advice.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Im going to say the opposite of christopher. Va3sically you're annoyed that you can't beat him? Then spar him more.



It's somewhere in the middle.  You should spar 3 types of people:

People better than you, so that you can learn from them and strive to be at their level one day
People worse than you, so that you can see how much you've learned, you can help be person #1 for them, and so you can test out moves you're not comfortable with yet
People about on your level, so you can have real competition
Now, in regards to person #1, that person also needs to play to your level.  If their skill is a 10, and your skill is a 2, then them going at level 10 all the time isn't going to help you.  If they're too fast for you to even follow what they're doing, and they never let you do anything because they are so dominant in the fight, then you won't learn anything.  Just like if you're trying to build strength at the gym, and the bar is so heavy you can't even lift it off the rest.  You build no strength in struggling with that bar.

However, if they go down to a 3, 4, or 5, they can push you to improve, while still being a better fighter that you can learn from.  At a 3, they can push you to try and win.  At a 4 or a 5 they can show you some ideas that you can try out.  (And then maybe drop for a 1 for you to try it and then back up).  You can go at a 10, but for short bursts.

If someone just completely dominates every fight, it's not very helpful.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

skribs said:


> It's somewhere in the middle.  You should spar 3 types of people:
> 
> People better than you, so that you can learn from them and strive to be at their level one day
> People worse than you, so that you can see how much you've learned, you can help be person #1 for them, and so you can test out moves you're not comfortable with yet
> ...


I disagree. If i go against someone who completely dominates me every fight, they'll keep on doing so. But I'm still learning from how they dominate me, and hopefully get dominated less. The thing is, if i go from a max 2 in ability to a 4 against someone whos at a max 5, i notice the difference. If i go from a max 2 to a max 4 against someone who stays around an 8 or 9, compared to me, i wont notice the difference as much, but it's still there if you know how to look for it. But dont make the immediate goal to beat them.

That said, they're not the only person you should train against, for the reasons you stated. 

Also, i know im using numbers a bit different than you were, but it was the easiest way imo to compare them


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## CB Jones (Jun 5, 2019)

You already


Ivan said:


> I am a green belt. I don't know too much about belts in taekwondo, and whether it differs unedrneath separate boards, so I am the third belt you're given under the board WRSA (it goes white, yellow, green etc). As a green belt, I am now allowed to spar more frequently; I now spar (usually) almost every session, and there are 2 sessions each week. I have experience in others arts, including JJJ and Boxing and Capoeira. I am not profecient in any of them, and I quit boxing a while ago because of issues with my coach. I am around the same area (belt) for all of them, but my boxing has helped me a lot to be better in sparring than the usual for a green belt.
> 
> However, recently a new person has joined who has kept his 3rd rank black belt in TKD (he was under the same board) and is training to be an assistant instructor. He participates in sparring along with the other black belts, and because I am not a junior (13 or below) I spar against black belts too. Usually, I hold my ground well enough to land a couple of good shots and in some cases dominate the fight (not trying to brag). However, all of the black belts I've sparred up until now in the club were in first rank; they are nothing compared to him!
> 
> ...



You already know what you need to fix and do...stop moving backwards....against a bigger and better kicker that's exactly what he wants you to do.  If he can force the fight to be linear then he can use his advantages better.

Focus on foot work and angles.  Try....When he feins or starts a kick instead of moving backwards quickly circle him and force him to turn and you attack while he is re-orienting.

Dont always move the same though...you got to mix it up.


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## CB Jones (Jun 5, 2019)

Also we have had good luck with side kicking big kickers.  Develop a good fast sidekick.


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## Mitlov (Jun 5, 2019)

If the guy is hitting too hard maliciously or in bad faith, speak to him or an instructor, but unless that's the case, Skribs hit the nail on the head:



skribs said:


> There was a similar guy at my dojang.  He was several inches taller than me, in better shape, more experienced, and more naturally talented than me.  He used his length to great advantage and I couldn't even get close enough to try to kick him.
> 
> One day I went up to him and said "tell me how to beat you."
> 
> He gave me a lot of good advice.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I disagree. If i go against someone who completely dominates me every fight, they'll keep on doing so. But I'm still learning from how they dominate me, and hopefully get dominated less. The thing is, if i go from a max 2 in ability to a 4 against someone whos at a max 5, i notice the difference. If i go from a max 2 to a max 4 against someone who stays around an 8 or 9, compared to me, i wont notice the difference as much, but it's still there if you know how to look for it. But dont make the immediate goal to beat them.
> 
> That said, they're not the only person you should train against, for the reasons you stated.
> 
> Also, i know im using numbers a bit different than you were, but it was the easiest way imo to compare them



If I have absolutely no option, then I have no room for growth.  If I cannot make any progress in the fight, I cannot make any progress in my fighting skills.  If it is such that every move I try is so easily blocked and countered, but every move they do is so fast and accurate I can't even try to use my guard, then sparring against them is pointless.

If "trying stuff" and "standing there" result in the same basic level of success, then I don't learn strategy and don't get to practice applying the technique.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 5, 2019)

skribs said:


> If I have absolutely no option, then I have no room for growth.  If I cannot make any progress in the fight, I cannot make any progress in my fighting skills.  If it is such that every move I try is so easily blocked and countered, but every move they do is so fast and accurate I can't even try to use my guard, then sparring against them is pointless.
> 
> If "trying stuff" and "standing there" result in the same basic level of success, then I don't learn strategy and don't get to practice applying the technique.


Yeah, I think the difference here may be how we define "dominate". When a white belt decides to see if they can slip something by on me and I shut them down and play with them (what they're hoping I'll do), they don't really get a chance to learn, because I'll change what they're dealing with at every step. If I did that with them every class for 100 classes, they'll learn a lot less about how to beat me than if they simply practiced with someone of their own level.

If a purple belt (just before brown) decides to see if they can slip something by on me and I shut them down and play with them (again, what they're hoping I'll do), they still get a chance to learn, because it'll take everything I have to keep shutting them down completely, and they'll eventually get something through when I make a mistake. Give them 100 classes of that, and they'll probably actually figure out some of my tells and (if I don't learn enough in the process) will become a real challenge for me.

If I can shut someone down quite easily, then there's going to be less for them to learn from in just being shut down. If it takes more of my skill, the other person is going to be able to find some openings, and can learn from those successes. Failure teaches, but you have to have some success to work out what the failure is teaching.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

skribs said:


> If I have absolutely no option, then I have no room for growth.  If I cannot make any progress in the fight, I cannot make any progress in my fighting skills.  If it is such that every move I try is so easily blocked and countered, but every move they do is so fast and accurate I can't even try to use my guard, then sparring against them is pointless.
> 
> If "trying stuff" and "standing there" result in the same basic level of success, then I don't learn strategy and don't get to practice applying the technique.


Ive never experienced a situation where there waa no option. Theres always the option of keeping my distance, and trying to find the limit of his distance of being able to hit me, or learning the combos that he likes from experiencing them, then trying them on my bag on my own.

The closest ive come to that was a guy in my fencing circuit my (i think) second year, who was faster than me, more accurate than me, his technique was better, and his reflexes were better. I think during the entire year i got two single points (meaning not double touches) on him, both from trying things he would never expect, that he adapted to after.

I learned a lot from him, as i had to figure out ways to be creative, and practice those ways in between meets. I also learned where my deficiencies lay (ie he would always get under my wrist from a parry four, after a bit i realized that i would raise my elbow slightly) and was able to adapt my training program based on what i learned from sparring him.

I wish i could say that thanks to that i was able to beat him the next year, but i think he graduated and i never fenced him again. Pretty sure he would've kicked my *** that year too though


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Ive never experienced a situation where there waa no option. Theres always the option of keeping my distance, and trying to find the limit of his distance of being able to hit me, or learning the combos that he likes from experiencing them, then trying them on my bag on my own.
> 
> The closest ive come to that was a guy in my fencing circuit my (i think) second year, who was faster than me, more accurate than me, his technique was better, and his reflexes were better. I think during the entire year i got two single points (meaning not double touches) on him, both from trying things he would never expect, that he adapted to after.
> 
> ...



There are some people at my school who are very uncoordinated.  They don't have good technique, flexibility, or speed.  People who are in their 40s and decide "I need to do something to get into shape", or else kids with low physical motivation.  They are very easy to outclass to this degree.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

skribs said:


> There are some people at my school who are very uncoordinated.  They don't have good technique, flexibility, or speed.  People who are in their 40s and decide "I need to do something to get into shape", or else kids with low physical motivation.  They are very easy to outclass to this degree.


From what i recall of OP, he doesn't fit that role. 

Either way, the uncoordination or lack of technique/flexibility/fitness isnt a factor that makes a difference on whether sparring someone much better than you helps. The only one is your motivation/durability. If you're going to treat it as "this guys too much better than me" and not be motivated to improve, then yeah it won't help. If you're going to treat it as "this guys where i want to be", and use all the loses as motivation, and actually think about the match afterwards to see how you can get better, accepting you might not see the results anytime soon, than it helps a lot.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> From what i recall of OP, he doesn't fit that role.
> 
> Either way, the uncoordination or lack of technique/flexibility/fitness isnt a factor that makes a difference on whether sparring someone much better than you helps. The only one is your motivation/durability. If you're going to treat it as "this guys too much better than me" and not be motivated to improve, then yeah it won't help. If you're going to treat it as "this guys where i want to be", and use all the loses as motivation, and actually think about the match afterwards to see how you can get better, accepting you might not see the results anytime soon, than it helps a lot.



If you don't see any path to victory, then it can be more harmful than inspirational.


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## Headhunter (Jun 5, 2019)

You lost to someone better than you deal with it. That's how these things go. Do you really think you can last with - third Dan black belt? Keep training and getting better that's all you can do


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## Ivan (Jun 5, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> You lost to someone better than you deal with it. That's how these things go. Do you really think you can last with - third Dan black belt? Keep training and getting better that's all you can do


It's not about lasting against him, it's about not being scared to spar him or at this point, beginning to dread my classes rather than looking forward to them  . I can take my losses, and I've taken more losses than wins.


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

Headhunter said:


> You lost to someone better than you deal with it. That's how these things go. Do you really think you can last with - third Dan black belt? Keep training and getting better that's all you can do



There's a difference between competition and training.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 5, 2019)

skribs said:


> If you don't see any path to victory, then it can be more harmful than inspirational.


There's always a path to victory, it just depends how you're defining victory, how much you're willing to work, and how long you're willing to work for. Thats my point


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## skribs (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There's always a path to victory, it just depends how you're defining victory, how much you're willing to work, and how long you're willing to work for. Thats my point



Just because it's there, doesn't mean it's obvious.  That goes more so for someone who is in the beginner stages of an art, who is still building training habits and confidence.  Unless the beginner needs a wake-up call, a significantly higher belt going 100% against beginners is going to be wasting their time and wasting the beginner's time.  It's a waste of their time because they're not getting any meaningful practice out of it, and it's a waste of the beginner's time because you set such a steep hill for them to climb, they get stuck.

If you meet them halfway, you're building your skills as a leader, and you're still pushing them to improve.

Slow down enough they can see and react to what is happening, you build reaction times.  Then speed it up as they get used to it.
Get them with a combo at full speed, then do it at half speed so they can see what you did, and let them try it on you.
Find a hole in their tactic and exploit it (for example, if they always show back kick, then go past it and get behind them).  Then tell them how you exploited it.
If you are completely dominating the fight, tell them a weakness in your strategy (for example, if you are using your range to your advantage, give them advice on how to close in).
If you see they're working things out, let them.  Go at a pace where if they use good strategy they may score a hit (even though you'll score 3 back on them).  
Doing this actually teaches them things, it makes them WANT to spar you in order to learn.  Even if they're getting kicked 10x as much as they kick you, they're learning from it.  It lets them see progress, lets them have a newfound respect for your knowledge and skills, and it gives them a positive reward when they improve.

If all I do as a higher belt is try to score as many points as I can, or kick you as hard as I can, then I'm not trying to help you.  I'm just using you as a punching bag.  That's a pretty toxic environment.

Note that a match is different.  If we partner up in class and we're working on tactics, I'll help my students learn.  If they were to challenge me to a match, I wouldn't hold back.


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## drop bear (Jun 5, 2019)

Ivan said:


> It's not about lasting against him, it's about not being scared to spar him or at this point, beginning to dread my classes rather than looking forward to them  . I can take my losses, and I've taken more losses than wins.



The thing is I don't think there is a trick to it. Except doing it until you can do it well.

Maby knowing that flinching in sparring makes all of those shots hurt more than staunching them.


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## Martial D (Jun 5, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I am a green belt. I don't know too much about belts in taekwondo, and whether it differs unedrneath separate boards, so I am the third belt you're given under the board WRSA (it goes white, yellow, green etc). As a green belt, I am now allowed to spar more frequently; I now spar (usually) almost every session, and there are 2 sessions each week. I have experience in others arts, including JJJ and Boxing and Capoeira. I am not profecient in any of them, and I quit boxing a while ago because of issues with my coach. I am around the same area (belt) for all of them, but my boxing has helped me a lot to be better in sparring than the usual for a green belt.
> 
> However, recently a new person has joined who has kept his 3rd rank black belt in TKD (he was under the same board) and is training to be an assistant instructor. He participates in sparring along with the other black belts, and because I am not a junior (13 or below) I spar against black belts too. Usually, I hold my ground well enough to land a couple of good shots and in some cases dominate the fight (not trying to brag). However, all of the black belts I've sparred up until now in the club were in first rank; they are nothing compared to him!
> 
> ...


What do you do?
I know wat I'd do. Spar that guy as much as possible. It will suck. It will be humbling. It will be painful, and you'll probably be a human kick shield for a long time.

But one day, you'll find a way to hit him. You'll find a way to stop some of his shots, and you will figure out his timing.

The you that does that will be a much better fighter than the you that wrote this post.

Bite down and aim at it.


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## spidersam (Jun 5, 2019)

I disagree with a lot of the people here. I’ve been in your shoes. I spar a lot of people better than me. They kick my A$$. I enjoy and learn from those situations. However, there was one person at my school who was a brown belt (I am currently green) who went too hard and I was afraid to spar every time we sparred. I tried to just get over it and fight my way through it but she was so fast and shut me down to the point of three take downs in ~30-45 seconds. I learned nothing from it and went home angry because no matter what I did I got shut down and the wind taken out of me.

So one day after class I went up to her and said “Hey I’m having a lot of trouble getting anything through when I spar you cause you’re so fast and I don’t know what to do. Would you mind giving me some tips?” And in that conversation I casually stated she throws a little too hard. 

The next time we sparred? I took her advice which worked. She also threw me less hard and gave pointers mid sparring. 

It wasn’t until I spoke up until I actually learned something.


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## Mitlov (Jun 5, 2019)

I have also asked "what should I be doing to get past this" when a sparring partner in my club is taller, faster, and more experienced. Getting off the line and never backing straight up were two comments. He still tags me far more than I tag him, but it's not as repetitive and frustrating as it was to both of us before. 

Remember, with club sparring, they're your PARTNER, not your OPPONENT. The purpose of club sparring is not to win per se, but to make both of you better competitors for when you do compete. So don't be afraid to ask a teammate who's constantly cleaning the floor with you for advice.


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## JR 137 (Jun 5, 2019)

There are so many possibilities in why this is going on, and none of us know exactly what’s at play here. 

My initial advice is to talk to the guy. Ask for some pointers. Hopefully that’ll change things.

Another thought is are you trying to win? Perhaps he’s shutting you down because you’re going too hard and you’re in competition mode instead of actual sparring mode. 

How are you with equal and lower ranks? Are you trying to beat them and/or going too hard? If so, he may be teaching you a lesson here. I’ve seen that many times.

Maybe there’s no ill-will in either of you. Maybe he thinks you like to go at it and he’s helping you out. There’s a few higher ranks I train with who like to battle with me. Some nights they’ll completely shut me down, other nights they’ll let me work more stuff; but either way we’re going hard and we love it. They’re not that way with most others. They know I want that and like that. 

Redefine winning during sparring. You’re not going to outright win. Focus on one thing. That may be keeping your hands up and not falling for fakes. Move differently so you’re not reaching too far to block a kick, then exposing a target that you get nailed on. Or maybe just working on moving forward when a kick is coming instead of backing up. My point is try to do one thing (over and over again). That’s the point in sparring - to work on flaws rather than trying to win.

Some advice against a great kicker: stay close. Very close. Keep your hands up and get inside. Get into a range where you can’t kick, but you can punch. And stay there. It takes some time, takes some getting hit, and it takes a lot of balls when you’re just starting it against someone far better than you. But after some time, you’ll get it and force him to change it up.


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## JP3 (Jun 5, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Im going to say the opposite of christopher. Va3sically you're annoyed that you can't beat him? Then spar him more.


I'm not going to say the opposite, but I'm going to agree with you to the extent tthat you should spar the 3rd dan more.  But, make each session a clear learning experience. Approach the guy before class, and be honest with him that you are  trying to learn, and are struggling to keep up with him (understandable since your a green belt power sparring a competent 3D). When the session is over, or when class is (depending on which is more appropriate for the time) ask for a debrief on what he saw that you did well, what you could improve on, and for the latter ask for tips on he thinks you could best work on those.

Higher ranks/more experienced people  will almost always respond well to that sort of inquiry.


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## Gweilo (Jun 6, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> You already
> 
> 
> You already know what you need to fix and do...stop moving backwards....against a bigger and better kicker that's exactly what he wants you to do.  If he can force the fight to be linear then he can use his advantages better.
> ...


Completely agree, when you spar with this student, do not enter the session with ideas of being able to strike them, instead use this session to work on your distance and timing work, use his abilities to improve yourself. When you are face to face, try to relax a bit more, try to regulate your breathing, being calmer will help your movement, and don't look at his legs, look at his head neck and shoulder area, usually these areas are where you will pick up on tell tale signs of a strike in its earliest stages, and as already posted start trying to move forward more, if you imagine a clock, and 12 is straight forward, try moving to 1, 2, or 11, 10 o'clock,  keep working hard and it will develop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> There's always a path to victory, it just depends how you're defining victory, how much you're willing to work, and how long you're willing to work for. Thats my point


Let me reframe a key point in this, the way it's rolling around in my head. There is always a way to victory (that's what we are training to learn to do), but there are efficient and inefficient methods of finding it. If I want to learn to box, stepping into a bunch of moderate-force sparring session with someone who can maul me (say, a mid-range pro) is inefficient. Working with that same guy with his cooperation can be really helpful. The difference is whether he's trying to beat me, or trying to help me improve. I'll improve faster in the "without cooperation" mode if I spar against someone who's somewhat better than me, but who I can occasionally make progress against.

To the OP's situation, that means it matters whether this guy is willing to be helpful or not. If he is, OP should spar him more (with the guy willing to give him a post-mortem breakdown, including openings he missed, his own tells, etc.). If he's not, then sparring him a bunch probably isn't as useful as finding someone else who manages some success against the guy and asking for their help.


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## Buka (Jun 6, 2019)

I like @spidersam's advice, talk to him, ask for pointers, pick his brain. And look at that as strategy, not as weakness.

Then - jam him. Put him in a narrow broom closet, don't give him any room to kick. Kickers hate that, I mean really hate it. Stay on him like ugly on ape, don't give him any room at all. You say he doesn't punch much? Good, that's a weakness, exploit it, you take away his kicks he'll have to beat you another way, and you're in the Philly Shell anyway, that puts him at more of a disadvantage than he'll be able to deal with. _never_ give a kicker room to kick.

I've known a lot of fighters in my day. Fighters who've had to deal with a lot of kickers. I remember when Bill Wallace was PKA champion, he had an upcoming defense of his title against Ron Thivierge out of Rhode Island. Ron Thivierge could really kick, one of those beautiful hell kickers of TKD, just one nasty kicker. I said to Bill, "Watch out for this guy, he can really kick" Bill laughed, patted me on the shoulder and said, "Oh, I'm not about to let him kick. I'm going to be so close to him all he'll be able to do is step back. Let's see how well he kicks with his back on the ropes." And that's just what he did. Smothered him, made him use all hands. And Bill Wallace was the better puncher by far. Beat him with all hands.

Go jam that boy, stay inside his shirt.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> Let me reframe a key point in this, the way it's rolling around in my head. There is always a way to victory (that's what we are training to learn to do), but there are efficient and inefficient methods of finding it. If I want to learn to box, stepping into a bunch of moderate-force sparring session with someone who can maul me (say, a mid-range pro) is inefficient. Working with that same guy with his cooperation can be really helpful. The difference is whether he's trying to beat me, or trying to help me improve. I'll improve faster in the "without cooperation" mode if I spar against someone who's somewhat better than me, but who I can occasionally make progress against.
> 
> To the OP's situation, that means it matters whether this guy is willing to be helpful or not. If he is, OP should spar him more (with the guy willing to give him a post-mortem breakdown, including openings he missed, his own tells, etc.). If he's not, then sparring him a bunch probably isn't as useful as finding someone else who manages some success against the guy and asking for their help.


I agree with you in a sense here. For maximum efficiency, I would guess 2/3rds of the time him going fully at you, and the other third him taking some time to drill with you, go at your level, and help you develop schools would be the best. But not having him go his hardest (not in power, but skill/technique) would be wasting such a great resource. If he's not able/willing to slow down and work at your level a third of the time, then having that other guy whos a bit better than you/a bit worse than him work with you in between bouts would be the best.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> I agree with you in a sense here. For maximum efficiency, I would guess 2/3rds of the time him going fully at you, and the other third him taking some time to drill with you, go at your level, and help you develop schools would be the best. But not having him go his hardest (not in power, but skill/technique) would be wasting such a great resource. If he's not able/willing to slow down and work at your level a third of the time, then having that other guy whos a bit better than you/a bit worse than him work with you in between bouts would be the best.



I think even 2/3 is way too much.

The sparring sessions should be training lessons.  If the lesson the green belt needs to learn is humility or respect, then it should be 100% for the whole fight.  If the lesson the green belt needs is in strategy or technique, then the sparring session should be enough to push him, but not enough to frustrate him.

I go back to bench pressing.  If I can bench 100 pounds for 10 reps, 140 pounds for 5 reps, and 160 pounds for 1 rep, what weight should I train at?  80 pounds to get a ton of reps in?  100 for sets of 10?  Maybe 125 or 140 for more resistance at lower reps?  It depends on my goal.

I've never seen a workout system where I should do max-weight single-rep sets for anything other than a benchmark.  160 would be dumb.  It would be even dumber to train at 180 where I can't even lift the bar.

Sparring is training your mind to use the techniques you've learned.  Sparring against someone lower than you is like the 80-100 pound weight.  Sparring someone around your level is in the 110-125 where you might be doing medium reps.  A higher belt pushing you could be around 140-160, which is good to get in order to see how far you can push yourself.  But if the higher belt is the equivalent of trying to bench 200, when you max for 1-rep is 160, then there's no real point.  Unless you were bragging about how easy 200 is.

(I know for some these numbers will be low and for some they will be high, that's why this is hypothetical).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think even 2/3 is way too much.
> 
> The sparring sessions should be training lessons.  If the lesson the green belt needs to learn is humility or respect, then it should be 100% for the whole fight.  If the lesson the green belt needs is in strategy or technique, then the sparring session should be enough to push him, but not enough to frustrate him.
> 
> ...


The issue with the comparison is that the reason you don't want to do that much weight is largely the risk of injury doing it all the time, and body recovery limiting the amount you can do. Sparring, there's no plan for either person to get seriously hurt, and theoretically if the person is that good it shouldn't be an issue. I still think spending most of the time training against the best person you can is the best option.

That changes if your motivation won't last, or if your goal isn't to get as good as possible as quickly as possible, but if your motivated and want to get good quickly, it's a no-brainer to train against the best guy you can IMO.

I also think it might be a bit different for you, when you are teaching a bunch of people with different motivation levels, and all of this is with the caveat that fundamentals have been learned.


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## wab25 (Jun 6, 2019)

Like everyone else... spar the guy more. You may never beat him, but if you do it right, you will become better against everyone else. And talk to him. I find I get better responses asking questions like: How should I get close enough? How can I stop getting kicked in the head by your round kick?... Pick specific things to ask about, and you will get more specific answers.

Here are some more concrete things you can do. Study him. He has patterns, favorite techniques, tendencies and he knows how to pick you apart. Lets say its a front side side kick that he uses a lot. In you class, you can concentrate on the defenses for that kick. Ask other students and your instructor how to better defend that kick. Your goal here is that next time you spar with him... you don't get caught as much by that kick. Move on to the next technique that he uses.

Learn his patterns and tendencies. Work on counters to those things. You don't have to work with him to work on them. Again you can get ideas from everyone you train with.

Realize that he has learned your patterns, favorites and tendencies. Surprise him by changing it up. Change things radically from how you initiate. Or start your same old combo, but change the 3rd or 4th technique up. Vary your timing. (instead of 1,2,3 do 1, pause, 2,3 or 1,2, pause 3...)

Finally, go find some of the threads here about folks starting bjj. Read the advice given. Don't try to win... you won't. Don't try to tap the other guy... you won't. Try to last a few seconds longer before tapping. This you can do. After a while, try improving your position. Then try to reverse it. eventually you will get to tapping them. But, recognize the small wins along the way. Apply this to your sparring with this guy.

If you approach it right... sparring with him will make you much better, whether or not you ever beat him. (do remember to try what he did to you on other folks... might as well learn along the way)


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## CB Jones (Jun 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think even 2/3 is way too much.
> 
> The sparring sessions should be training lessons.  If the lesson the green belt needs to learn is humility or respect, then it should be 100% for the whole fight.  If the lesson the green belt needs is in strategy or technique, then the sparring session should be enough to push him, but not enough to frustrate him.
> 
> ...



I think it depends on the individual and their compeitiveness.

Someone with a high competitive spirit is gonna benefit more from being dominated and will push harder to improve.

Whereas someone with a less competitive spirit will just be beat down more.

For my son, he improved more working with older students that were rough on him. Forced him to improve quicker so he didnt get knocked around as much.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> The issue with the comparison is that the reason you don't want to do that much weight is largely the risk of injury doing it all the time, and body recovery limiting the amount you can do. Sparring, there's no plan for either person to get seriously hurt, and theoretically if the person is that good it shouldn't be an issue. I still think spending most of the time training against the best person you can is the best option.
> 
> That changes if your motivation won't last, or if your goal isn't to get as good as possible as quickly as possible, but if your motivated and want to get good quickly, it's a no-brainer to train against the best guy you can IMO.
> 
> I also think it might be a bit different for you, when you are teaching a bunch of people with different motivation levels, and all of this is with the caveat that fundamentals have been learned.



It still becomes an issue of time-effectiveness.  Doing 1 max-weight rep at a time will build your strength slower than doing 6-8 reps at a lower weight.

Getting completely dominated will be a less efficient way of learning, than to get beaten in a match where you are able to put together some strategy and actually see improvement and see the path to success.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> It still becomes an issue of time-effectiveness.  Doing 1 max-weight rep at a time will build your strength slower than doing 6-8 reps at a lower weight.
> 
> Getting completely dominated will be a less efficient way of learning, than to get beaten in a match where you are able to put together some strategy and actually see improvement and see the path to success.


Again that comes back to your definition of success. If I know I can't beat this dude, ever, my goal is to spar him with the goal of blocking a certain number of his shots, or get into a range he doesn't like. I still get dominated, but I get to try specific things in the most difficult way.


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## CB Jones (Jun 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> Getting completely dominated will be a less efficient way of learning, than to get beaten in a match where you are able to put together some strategy and actually see improvement and see the path to success.



I kinda disagree.

Beating the middle of the road opponent doesnt get you any closer to beating the dominate fighter but small improvements against the dominant fighter creates huge improvements against the middle of the road opponent.

I think that is why my son has had his success.  His training partners have always been dominant and it forces him to work harder.  Tournaments are easy compared to his training partners.


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## CB Jones (Jun 6, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I kinda disagree.
> 
> Beating the middle of the road opponent doesnt get you any closer to beating the dominate fighter but small improvements against the dominant fighter creates huge improvements against the middle of the road opponent.
> 
> I think that is why my son has had his success.  His training partners have always been dominant and it forces him to work harder.  Tournaments are easy compared to his training partners.



But let me add....you have to have a high competitive spirit.  Without that the lesser fighter will just do the same thing over and over and settle for being dominated.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 6, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> But let me add....you have to have a high competitive spirit.  Without that the lesser fighter will just do the same thing over and over and settle for being dominated.


Yup. Which is the issue. If you have the motivation and desire to improve, it'll work. If you don't have that, it'll be pointless. But if we're talking about the best way to approve, I'm going to assume you have that drive (and OP seems to have that spirit from past posts).


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## Buka (Jun 6, 2019)

In a Martial sense, there is nothing better in the world than sparring people better than you. Man, it will make you _so_ good.


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## skribs (Jun 6, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I kinda disagree.
> 
> Beating the middle of the road opponent doesnt get you any closer to beating the dominate fighter but small improvements against the dominant fighter creates huge improvements against the middle of the road opponent.
> 
> I think that is why my son has had his success.  His training partners have always been dominant and it forces him to work harder.  Tournaments are easy compared to his training partners.



I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent.  I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.

And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.


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## CB Jones (Jun 6, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent.  I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.
> 
> And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.



Ok....still in my experience....the more difficult the opponent the better.

It doesnt matter that you are getting dominated...you just keep working and learning.

If you are sparring a 10 every day that 5 doesnt seem so hard to compete against....what can they do that you havent seen.  My son goes into most tournaments knowing that he wont have to fight anyone near as good as his every day sparring partners.


Just to add....this worked for him....everyone is different.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I'm not talking about beating a middle-of-the-road opponent.  I'm talking about sparring an opponent that is somewhat better than you, instead of completely out of your league.
> 
> And as you catch up, that difficulty increases.


Depending on where you're at, the person who's somewhat better than you could be a middle of the road opponent. Hell, the person completely out of your league could still be a middle of the road opponent. But you'll never get to the point that you can fight in their metaphoric arena unless you fight them a lot.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> I think even 2/3 is way too much.
> 
> The sparring sessions should be training lessons.  If the lesson the green belt needs to learn is humility or respect, then it should be 100% for the whole fight.  If the lesson the green belt needs is in strategy or technique, then the sparring session should be enough to push him, but not enough to frustrate him.
> 
> ...


There are a couple of things that go around in my head on this one. I'd probably learn more in a technical sense if I spent more than 1/3 of the time working with him (rather than him actually trying to beat me). But I think I'd become a better fighter by dealing with that 2/3. The 1/3 of working with should give me something to focus on to get some openings and make something happen. And learning to fight through those times when I can't seem to make anything happen would be powerful learning.

I actually have - at a very early point in my curriculum - a period where new students aren't allowed to fight back. The sparring is light and technical, but they're allowed no offense. I'm getting them some familiarity with just surviving, using defensive tactics when they get overwhelmed, and keeping their head. I think that's important. The OP could learn that (probably already knows some of it - could learn it better) with this guy. And if the guy is working with him 1/3 of the time, that 2/3 should become less intimidating pretty quickly.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Depending on where you're at, the person who's somewhat better than you could be a middle of the road opponent. Hell, the person completely out of your league could still be a middle of the road opponent. But you'll never get to the point that you can fight in their metaphoric arena unless you fight them a lot.



If the opponent is a middle-of-the-road opponent, then chances are they won't shut down everything and there WILL be an opportunity.  Unless the other person is an extreme beginner or is really struggling with the material.

This topic isn't about middle-of-the-road opponents, but someone who is significantly better than everyone else you spar.


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There are a couple of things that go around in my head on this one. I'd probably learn more in a technical sense if I spent more than 1/3 of the time working with him (rather than him actually trying to beat me). But I think I'd become a better fighter by dealing with that 2/3. The 1/3 of working with should give me something to focus on to get some openings and make something happen. And learning to fight through those times when I can't seem to make anything happen would be powerful learning.
> 
> I actually have - at a very early point in my curriculum - a period where new students aren't allowed to fight back. The sparring is light and technical, but they're allowed no offense. I'm getting them some familiarity with just surviving, using defensive tactics when they get overwhelmed, and keeping their head. I think that's important. The OP could learn that (probably already knows some of it - could learn it better) with this guy. And if the guy is working with him 1/3 of the time, that 2/3 should become less intimidating pretty quickly.



Self defense sparring and Taekwondo sparring are two completely different things (I say this as someone who does both TKD and HKD).


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> If the opponent is a middle-of-the-road opponent, then chances are they won't shut down everything and there WILL be an opportunity.  Unless the other person is an extreme beginner or is really struggling with the material.
> 
> This topic isn't about middle-of-the-road opponents, but someone who is significantly better than everyone else you spar.


Thats exactly what cb was saying though. The middle of the road opponent is the one who might be slightly netter than you, but youll gain more by fighting the completely dominant opponent.

But what i was saying there is depending on what arena you're talking about the middle of the road opponent could still dominate you. The low-end olympic athletes, could probably dominate 95% of people in their style, but when you look at them at the olympic level, they are middle of the road


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## skribs (Jun 7, 2019)

kempodisciple said:


> Thats exactly what cb was saying though. The middle of the road opponent is the one who might be slightly netter than you, but youll gain more by fighting the completely dominant opponent.
> 
> But what i was saying there is depending on what arena you're talking about the middle of the road opponent could still dominate you. The low-end olympic athletes, could probably dominate 95% of people in their style, but when you look at them at the olympic level, they are middle of the road



They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few.  When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.


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## Monkey Turned Wolf (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few.  When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.


Actually, that wasn't part of my argument. I was just explaining how middle of the road can mean different things to different people. And your middle of the road is someone elses "significantly better than me"


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## Buka (Jun 7, 2019)

CB Jones said:


> I think it depends on the individual and their compeitiveness.
> 
> Someone with a high competitive spirit is gonna benefit more from being dominated and will push harder to improve.
> 
> ...




You're right, bro. And that's where a good instructor is important. Teaching fighting arts has a lot to do with recognizing and somewhat managing different personalities as well as physical skills, or potential skills.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> Self defense sparring and Taekwondo sparring are two completely different things (I say this as someone who does both TKD and HKD).


True enough. But we're dealing with some of the same basic reactions in both. @drop bear has brought this up in reference to the way folks at his gym prep for MMA, too. Sometimes (more often for some folks than others) we react badly when overwhelmed, and learning to deal with that overwhelm and keep cool enough to regain some control from the eye of the storm is a powerful tool.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 7, 2019)

skribs said:


> They're only "middle of the road" because you narrow the scope to those elite few.  When you cherry-pick your statistics you can make any argument you want.


I think "middle of the road" is always (like "average") going to be relative to the population. A "middle of the road" kicker in a decent TKD school would be the star kicker at most NGA schools.


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## CB Jones (Jun 7, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> I think "middle of the road" is always (like "average") going to be relative to the population. A "middle of the road" kicker in a decent TKD school would be the star kicker at most NGA schools.



I'll clarify....when I stated middle of the road...I meant the opponent that's skill level is between your level and the dominant fighter's level.


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## Balrog (Jun 8, 2019)

Ivan said:


> I
> I move around. A lot. This is mostly because, of me suffering my first knockout in boxing a while back, trying to block a hook from someone much bigger and stronger than me. The fear of this also causes me a lot of problems with agression and offense in a fight (or lackthereof), me not being able to get myself to punch with my back hand for fear of being too exposed, and whenever I dodge, it's almost always backwards.


That's a rough thing to overcome, and the only thing that will help, believe it or not, is getting hit again and learning that you can take the hit.  I teach a sparring stance where the hands are not always in the same area.  They move randomly, so that the opponent doesn't have a constant target to find a hole in.  However, at least one hand is ALWAYS up to protect the head.  You might see if something like that works for you.


> Back to new guy, I cannot touch him whatsoever; even if I try to get close, he manages to kick me incredibly hard considering it should be harder for him to use his legs when I'm all up in there, and he also creates and maintains his distance super well. Moreover, he feints his kicks so much and they're so damn quick. He doesn't use his hands at all, and doesn't ever punch.
> 
> I have a lot of trouble being offensive against my normal sparring opponents as it is (though I've been overcoming it slowly and made some progress last week) but against the new guy, who is also bigger, faster and older, I simply can't defend or attack. Especially with my bad dodging backwards habit. He punishes me brutally with axe kicks to the head. He is very agressive, arrogant and annoying, but I can't really say anything about it.
> 
> How do I overcome these problems and fears? What do I do? Please help. Thanks.


The best way to overcome the habit of dodging backward is to spar with your back against a wall.  That way, you can't go backward,  You can only evade to the side (or straight over your opponent), and that is preferable.  We call it V-in, V-out, for the direction of travel.  If you stay on your opponent's attack line, they will continue to attack.  Once you evade off the line, they now have to break their attack to change direction and that's a great time to counter-attack.

As far as the continually getting you....that's what 3rd Degrees should do to Green Belts!  
However, they should also teach.  Perhaps you can go to him and ask him to show you some block/counter combos, or offensive combos, and work drills with him.  I would think that he would be happy to help you with that.


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## JP3 (Jun 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> Go jam that boy, stay inside his shirt.


I haven't heard that saying in years! Ha! Not much call for being inside the other guy's skin in the judo/aikido mat-space. I heard it the first time when the boxing coach at my muay thai gym said it to me when I was about to spar with a guy who'd been there quite a bit longer than I. I … had... figured to kickbox him, but the coach was way smarter than my dumba$$… the guy would have leg kicked me like he was cutting down a tree. Instead.. it was the super-tight treatment, which I found out, right then, that I liked. A lot. Body hooks, one-hand head clinch, shift knee (can't do those in all training, I get it), upper cut when they duck a choppy head hook. All from basically inside a standing guard. Brutal way to fight. Got to have good core/abs though, since the way out of it is to gut blast the guy who is tight on you.

@Buka... I'd never have thought that Bill Wallace would have "boxed" anyone. I mean, I know he could, just didn't know he ever had to.


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## Buka (Jun 8, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I haven't heard that saying in years! Ha! Not much call for being inside the other guy's skin in the judo/aikido mat-space. I heard it the first time when the boxing coach at my muay thai gym said it to me when I was about to spar with a guy who'd been there quite a bit longer than I. I … had... figured to kickbox him, but the coach was way smarter than my dumba$$… the guy would have leg kicked me like he was cutting down a tree. Instead.. it was the super-tight treatment, which I found out, right then, that I liked. A lot. Body hooks, one-hand head clinch, shift knee (can't do those in all training, I get it), upper cut when they duck a choppy head hook. All from basically inside a standing guard. Brutal way to fight. Got to have good core/abs though, since the way out of it is to gut blast the guy who is tight on you.
> 
> @Buka... I'd never have thought that Bill Wallace would have "boxed" anyone. I mean, I know he could, just didn't know he ever had to.



Bill had very good hands. Especially when he went from sport Karate to ring fighting.

And he was wicked smart.


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## JR 137 (Jun 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> And he was wicked smart.



Spoken like a true Masshole.  I went to college in Mass, and I heard “wicked” everything. Haven’t heard it in a while.


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## Buka (Jun 8, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Spoken like a true Masshole.  I went to college in Mass, and I heard “wicked” everything. Haven’t heard it in a while.



You went to college in Massachusetts? Bro, that's wicked pissa!


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## JR 137 (Jun 8, 2019)

Buka said:


> You went to college in Massachusetts? Bro, that's wicked pissa!


Yup. The armpit of America - North Adams. Most students were from the Boston area. I became a popular guy my first day - wearing my Yankees hat. I honestly wasn’t even thinking about it. I had so many people say so many things to me. I just had to rock that hat every day.


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## Buka (Jun 9, 2019)

JR 137 said:


> Yup. The armpit of America - North Adams. Most students were from the Boston area. I became a popular guy my first day - wearing my Yankees hat. I honestly wasn’t even thinking about it. I had so many people say so many things to me. I just had to rock that hat every day.



I grew up in the city of Boston.....as a New York Yankees fan. You know why? My dad used to take me to Fenway Park to see the great Ted Williams. Maybe the best hitter of all time. Afterwards my dad would let me wait around where the players came out so I could get autographs.

Sometimes, if the Sox lost or it was starting to rain or if the game went extra innings and the time was getting late, the Sox players would say “not today, fellas, next time”. But the Yankees, win or lose, rain or shine, regardless of the hour, would sign every kid’s everything. Your hat, your glove, the program, your baseball cards.

I said to my father, “Daddy, I like these guys better than our guys.” He said, “Son, this is America. You can like anyone you want.”

I’m still a Yankees fan.


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## JP3 (Jun 9, 2019)

gpseymour said:


> There are a couple of things that go around in my head on this one. I'd probably learn more in a technical sense if I spent more than 1/3 of the time working with him (rather than him actually trying to beat me). But I think I'd become a better fighter by dealing with that 2/3. The 1/3 of working with should give me something to focus on to get some openings and make something happen. And learning to fight through those times when I can't seem to make anything happen would be powerful learning.
> 
> I actually have - at a very early point in my curriculum - a period where new students aren't allowed to fight back. The sparring is light and technical, but they're allowed no offense. I'm getting them some familiarity with just surviving, using defensive tactics when they get overwhelmed, and keeping their head. I think that's important. The OP could learn that (probably already knows some of it - could learn it better) with this guy. And if the guy is working with him 1/3 of the time, that 2/3 should become less intimidating pretty quickly.


I agree with that, and I put it to use (when I figured out how to ask for it) in my judo/aikido later in life.

Doing randori  in the beginning, I didn't really know what I was doing, but I was athletic, strong, quick & flexible from all the other stuff so I figured it couldn't be too bad.  Famous last words, right... I should have known better, since I did go through the initiation into Muay Thai.

I was doing randori with my buddy Frank, the school owner, who I'd met at a law school party. Tht's where we worked out that I could teach TKD at his place and trade that off for judo instruction.

Anyway, I'm doing randori with him, and I'm working hard, trying to work him into a position where I could to the ippon seoinage or Osoto gari combo.  A combo he'd taught me, it's important to point out.  He's talking to me, talking to other people on the mat, gernally not paying much direct attention specifically to me. I manage to get the combo right once and get the shoulder throw. Frank doesn't even stop his conversation with another black belt about some tip or other the other dude was giving his partner.

So, I, in my infinite wisdom, say, "Frank, what is this stuff like when it's done full speed?"

… and he disappeared. Of course, he was still attached d to me, but he'd dropped right between my feet into a double-knee drop seoinage and I went up and over, down flat on my back. It was an impressive Whoomp!  I was like... What...?  How...?  That throw was his pet tournament throw. Didn't hurt, but it did surprise me completely.

Laughing, he helped me up and said, You've got to be careful what you ask for, and from who you ask it. Yeah, no kidding. He Did slow the throw down, show it to me, tell me how it works, etc. Nice guy.

Lesson. You learn a lot in very little time working with (note I didn't say fighting with) people much better than you. I suppose that you also learn a lot faster fihting with people better than you, or you get hurt and just stop.


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## Gerry Seymour (Jun 9, 2019)

JP3 said:


> I agree with that, and I put it to use (when I figured out how to ask for it) in my judo/aikido later in life.
> 
> Doing randori  in the beginning, I didn't really know what I was doing, but I was athletic, strong, quick & flexible from all the other stuff so I figured it couldn't be too bad.  Famous last words, right... I should have known better, since I did go through the initiation into Muay Thai.
> 
> ...


Man, I love a good full drop seoi nage. I can't do one - not sure I ever could - but I really like seeing it done. For that matter, I kinda like having it done on me...or, I used to. Not sure I'd enjoy it as much now.

Still like watching it done to others, though.


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