# How to stop pushing and start punching?



## Towel Snapper (Sep 11, 2014)

My punches feel like they have too much push to them, and they cause the heavy bag to move in a very dramatic and violent way, shake about etc, but that is a beginners mistake. Theres no noise no bang sound when I punch. 

How do I make sure I remove as much push from my punches as is possible and how do I make the really hard impact and loud bang on the bag and cause the kind of damage a quality punch will cause?


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## Danny T (Sep 11, 2014)

How long have you been training and practicing?
Do you have the fundamentals for the punches and are you performing them when you punch?
How much punching are you doing daily?

Time to develop punching fundamentals; time in practicing the movements and time in actually punching. Punch, punch, punch, punch. For some of us it takes a lot of practice to understand the punch range and timing the point of contact. Work on the fundamentals and punch; a lot.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

Don't punch through the target like every body says and punch more on the target.


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## K-man (Sep 11, 2014)

There is a big difference between 'push' and 'penetration'.  Pushing does very little but the small extension that comes from the shoulder at the moment of impact makes the difference. Personally, unless you are into point sparring, I would never be advocating punching on the target. If your target moves back a fraction there is no power left in your punch.

To recognise the difference in what I am saying. If you punch with a push you won't have a faster retraction as your weight is forward. If you punch with extension you retain your balance and the natural movement of the shoulder back to position aids in the recovery of your arm.
:asian:


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 11, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> My punches feel like they have too much push to them, and they cause the heavy bag to move in a very dramatic and violent way, shake about etc, but that is a beginners mistake. Theres no noise no bang sound when I punch.
> 
> How do I make sure I remove as much push from my punches as is possible and how do I make the really hard impact and loud bang on the bag and cause the kind of damage a quality punch will cause?



You might want to develop speed. A punch becomes a push its too slow. So, if you want your punch to be a punch not a push than you should work on your speed. And, just as its important to throw the punch out fast, you also want to snap it back fast. Lots of it is in the pullback.


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## Tgace (Sep 11, 2014)

Because you probably are "pushing it". Snap the punch out with the right weight shift from feet through the shoulder and into the bag then pull the fist back to guard quickly.

When I'm not pulling the punch back to guard quickly I get that " pushing" sensation too.


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## drop bear (Sep 11, 2014)

K-man said:


> There is a big difference between 'push' and 'penetration'.  Pushing does very little but the small extension that comes from the shoulder at the moment of impact makes the difference. Personally, unless you are into point sparring, I would never be advocating punching on the target. If your target moves back a fraction there is no power left in your punch.
> 
> To recognise the difference in what I am saying. If you punch with a push you won't have a faster retraction as your weight is forward. If you punch with extension you retain your balance and the natural movement of the shoulder back to position aids in the recovery of your arm.
> :asian:



If they move back. You step forward and punch them with your other hand. You are going to miss people every now and then.


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## K-man (Sep 12, 2014)

drop bear said:


> If they move back. You step forward and punch them with your other hand. You are going to miss people every now and then.


Not that easy. With a punch to a point the defender only needs to move his centre back a couple a cms and you have missed out on an opportunity with very little chance of a follow up because he hasn't given you the space to move into. Unless he's a dummy you are going to step straight into his punch in the picture I am painting. If you are moving in with multiple punches it's a different story but if you are looking for that single strike I believe you need the extension. As I said, in a point sparring situation it doesn't matter because you'll get a point regardless. This type of punching is in my opinion a problem in a lot of sport oriented systems that don't allow full contact to the head.

As to missing. Sure, and it's probably a lot more frequently than now and then.
:asian:


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

Tgace said:


> Because you probably are "pushing it". Snap the punch out with the right weight shift from feet through the shoulder and into the bag then pull the fist back to guard quickly.
> 
> When I'm not pulling the punch back to guard quickly I get that " pushing" sensation too.





How do you pull your punches back? Are you using arms or back muscles to pull back? How are you doing that? 

Thank you and thanks to everyone that answered this question!


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## K-man (Sep 12, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> How do you pull your punches back? Are you using arms or back muscles to pull back? How are you doing that?
> 
> Thank you and thanks to everyone that answered this question!


For me, punches are the end point of a succession of body movements, normally including the hips and shoulders. The rotation of the shoulders gives you the extension and the normal return of the torso brings your arm back. If the arm is relaxed at that time it will come back to a natural position. You don't have to think about pulling it back at all.
Watch this guys shoulders, particularly after the first minute.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FZkEgqzn2os
:asian:


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

K-man said:


> For me, punches are the end point of a succession of body movements, normally including the hips and shoulders. The rotation of the shoulders gives you the extension and the normal return of the torso brings your arm back. If the arm is relaxed at that time it will come back to a natural position. You don't have to think about pulling it back at all.
> Watch this guys shoulders, particularly after the first minute.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FZkEgqzn2os
> :asian:



Thankyou! So if you punch correctly there is no pull back, the punch returns all by itself. Punching aint simple lol


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## Tgace (Sep 12, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> Thankyou! So if you punch correctly there is no pull back, the punch returns all by itself. Punching aint simple lol



A coach I once had used to say that once you knew the mechanics all you had to do was punch hard and punch fast. He didn't subscribe to the "smooth is fast" idea with punching. Do it smooth AND do it fast..lol!

Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 12, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> Thankyou! So if you punch correctly there is no pull back, the punch returns all by itself. Punching aint simple lol


There should be.


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

Thanks and thanks for your other tip I just got how cool it is for footwork thanks a million friend!!


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 12, 2014)

With a name like Towel Snapper you should know all about pullback, or snapping your punches back so they will be punches not pushes. Just like when you snap a towel, you snap the punch back. Same concept.


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## donnaTKD (Sep 12, 2014)

i always roll my shoulders through so the punch hits with as much force as i can generate and aim to punch all the way through --- never had a problem with it and i've won plenty of scraps too 

you're not aiming to hit the bag person or whatever --- you're aiming for the space directly behind it.  i think maybe you're scared of hurting yourself so you're not hitting it prpoerly --- maybe


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 12, 2014)

In my style we're told not to roll our shoulders and instead to focus on rotating the hips. The power comes from the hips not the shoulders and while your shoulder will obviously move you want most of the movement to come from the hips and for the arm to follow. Your style might be different though.


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## mook jong man (Sep 12, 2014)

Like most of us when we were first learning to punch , there was the odd occasion when our wrist buckled and we hurt ourselves.

On some level we still remember this , so the brain is trying to slow your punch down so there is less risk of hurting yourself.
You have to rewire your brain by convincing it that you are at a higher skill level now and your wrist can handle the impact.

Start off by throwing your punch as fast as you can at the surface of the heavy bag a few times , but don't let the punch penetrate. , just let the knuckles graze the surface.

Still maintaining the same speed , let your punch penetrate maybe two inches into the bag.

Next , making sure to keep the acceleration , project your force a quarter of the way into the bag , then aim for halfway into the heavy bag.

Then finally start aiming your force straight through the heavy bag and out the other side of it.

If you start feeling that your punch is beginning to slow down as you mentally and physically project your force deeper into the bag , then go back to the earlier stages.


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## donnaTKD (Sep 12, 2014)

if you roll your shoulders then you can get far more rotation and therefore far more energy travelling through your arm and ultimately the target. your hips automatically rotate when you roll your shoulders cos if you're doing it properly then the whole of your upper body moves - you need your shoulders to roll faster than your hips.  the hitting power comes out of your shoulders not out of your hips which is why when training you train your shoulder muscles more than anything else. when punching close up you don't move your hips you roll your shoulders and it puts far more power into your shots  try it 

your hips movement is just to put your body in the right place to hit the target - s'all - i've been through all this over the years and what i do works - simple - it's tried and tested in and out of the cage.

try it and then tell me that i've been doing it wrong for over 20 years !!!!!


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## K-man (Sep 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> With a name like Towel Snapper you should know all about pullback, or snapping your punches back so they will be punches not pushes. Just like when you snap a towel, you snap the punch back. Same concept.


I think I would disagree totally with this idea. To 'snap' a punch back as we used to do in point sparring you actually stop your punch before it has delivered full power. It looks smart, it sounds great in a canvas gi but you won't see a professional fighter punching that way.



PhotonGuy said:


> In my style we're told not to roll our shoulders and instead to focus on rotating the hips. The power comes from the hips not the shoulders and while your shoulder will obviously move you want most of the movement to come from the hips and for the arm to follow. Your style might be different though.



Agreed that the power comes from the hips but how do you 'roll' your shoulders?



donnaTKD said:


> if you roll your shoulders then you can get far more rotation and therefore far more energy travelling through your arm and ultimately the target. your hips automatically rotate when you roll your shoulders cos if you're doing it properly then the whole of your upper body moves - you need your shoulders to roll faster than your hips.  the hitting power comes out of your shoulders not out of your hips which is why when training you train your shoulder muscles more than anything else. when punching close up you don't move your hips you roll your shoulders and it puts far more power into your shots  try it
> 
> your hips movement is just to put your body in the right place to hit the target - s'all - i've been through all this over the years and what i do works - simple - it's tried and tested in and out of the cage.
> 
> try it and then tell me that i've been doing it wrong for over 20 years !!!!!


OK, here you are talking of your hips rotating and causing the shoulders to rotate which is what I teach. Are you saying your shoulders rotate and roll or just rotate? The only time I have seen a punch taught from a shoulder roll, and I teach it, is in Systema and that's not the type of punch you normally see. I could never imagine it being used in tournaments.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDaeqo9PqUA

I'm not suggesting one is better than the other. They just have different applications.
:asian:


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> With a name like Towel Snapper you should know all about pullback, or snapping your punches back so they will be punches not pushes. Just like when you snap a towel, you snap the punch back. Same concept.



My name precedes my abilities, its one thing to know a theory its another to be able to do it in real life. Im not there yet.


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 12, 2014)

You only want to snap back your punch once your arm is fully extended. Once your elbow is completely straight then you snap it back, at least that's what my main style teaches, other styles are different. As for this shoulder roll used when throwing punches, it would really help if I saw a video of it, maybe I will try it out if I see what it looks like.


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 12, 2014)

Ok i have figured out what i was doing wrong, i was rushing the punch in an attempt to make it faster/more sudden/ more powerful, i was basically using my waist arms and chest to extend my arms b4 my hips had finished their rotation without even realizing I was doing it, when i needed to only rotate my hips and leave the rest completely limp, and to allow it the rest of my body to have a delay behind my hips. I was rushing "thinking" any delay is bad but this delay allows for speed n power to build up so its a good thing. 

I was stopping my own power. Now it feels like my fists are balls on the end of a string that is my arm for straight punches ie they are an impacting punch and not a bench press like pushing motion. My hooks feel alot faster too.


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## Touch Of Death (Sep 12, 2014)

K-man said:


> I think I would disagree totally with this idea. To 'snap' a punch back as we used to do in point sparring you actually stop your punch before it has delivered full power. It looks smart, it sounds great in a canvas gi but you won't see a professional fighter punching that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Full extension with a snap back is not a bad thing.


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## K-man (Sep 13, 2014)

PhotonGuy said:


> You only want to snap back your punch once your arm is fully extended. Once your elbow is completely straight then you snap it back, at least that's what my main style teaches, other styles are different. As for this shoulder roll used when throwing punches, it would really help if I saw a video of it, maybe I will try it out if I see what it looks like.


Once your arm is completely straight it is highly vulnerable. Extended yes, straight no. I have never seen anyone teach punching with a totally straight arm. 
:asian:


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## Towel Snapper (Sep 13, 2014)

K-man said:


> Once your arm is completely straight it is highly vulnerable. Extended yes, straight no. I have never seen anyone teach punching with a totally straight arm.
> :asian:



I thought thats what caused the automatic snap back, once your arm is fully straightened and extended it reaches a sudden stop which causes it to bounce back? 

I have heard that you should always punch with a slightly bent arm too but I thought that was so you get the snap back as you go into your target? 

Im no expert but I just figured how do you snap the arm back automatically if you dont let it get to full extension first? (for the straight right), the right cross might be a different story?


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## K-man (Sep 13, 2014)

Towel Snapper said:


> I thought thats what caused the automatic snap back, once your arm is fully straightened and extended it reaches a sudden stop which causes it to bounce back?
> 
> I have heard that you should always punch with a slightly bent arm too but I thought that was so you get the snap back as you go into your target?
> 
> Im no expert but I just figured how do you snap the arm back automatically if you dont let it get to full extension first? (for the straight right), the right cross might be a different story.


I suppose it is something that you develop over time and with experience. We were taught from day one never to allow the arm to fully straighten. When you extend your arm in the punch it stops just fractionally short of straight. The extension comes from the shoulder, not the elbow, and the return of the shoulder is what pulls the arm back without the need to even think about it. It is nothing to do with a sudden stop. Probably the only sudden stop would be punching rocks or walls. Not that I am suggesting you do it, but I'm sure if you were to punch a solid wall as hard as you could at about the maximum distance you can comfortably reach, it won't bounce back because there would be no extension in that strike to allow the shoulder action I have described. Even a makiwara has give in it.

For what it's worth, the terms 'right cross' and 'straight right' are pretty much the same punch. Some might say that they _are_ the same punch. Certainly in common usage the terms are interchangeable and with pads it is the same. The subtle difference is that the 'straight' is the dominant hand strike going straight between your opponent's guard and the 'cross' is the same punch crossing your opponent's forward arm. It might be slightly looped to get through.
:asian:


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## donnaTKD (Sep 13, 2014)

K-man said:


> Agreed that the power comes from the hips but how do you 'roll' your shoulders?
> 
> OK, here you are talking of your hips rotating and causing the shoulders to rotate which is what I teach. Are you saying your shoulders rotate and roll or just rotate? The only time I have seen a punch taught from a shoulder roll, and I teach it, is in Systema and that's not the type of punch you normally see. I could never imagine it being used in tournaments.
> https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CDaeqo9PqUA
> ...



rolling the shoulders is one the things that i was taught a long time ago. you rotate your shoulders for a jab and a cross but you roll your shoulders for other shots.  

just 1 example, an uppercut your hips are steady, you dip the shoulder that your gunna send the shot from then roll it forwards and upwards to exert max through the punch.


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## K-man (Sep 13, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> rolling the shoulders is one the things that i was taught a long time ago. you rotate your shoulders for a jab and a cross but you roll your shoulders for other shots.
> 
> just 1 example, an uppercut your hips are steady, you dip the shoulder that your gunna send the shot from then roll it forwards and upwards to exert max through the punch.


Cool! I thought you were referring to a straight punch which is what we were talking about.
:asian:


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## Tgace (Sep 16, 2014)

I was also taught that rolling shoulders adds a little more chin protection as well....

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## Touch Of Death (Sep 16, 2014)

Tgace said:


> I was also taught that rolling shoulders adds a little more chin protection as well....
> 
> Sent from my SCH-I405 using Tapatalk 2


If you simply have your guard up, the very act of dropping your elbow to center line will bring the shoulder over your chin. If you roll the shoulder your elbow wings out, and you will be hating life when you get older, but I'm just sayin'


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## PhotonGuy (Sep 17, 2014)

I tried rolling my shoulders while throwing punches on the heavy bag and I did notice a difference. My style teaches you not to do that but all styles are different. I would like to get some professional training on this.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2014)

Touch Of Death said:


> If you simply have your guard up, the very act of dropping your elbow to center line will bring the shoulder over your chin. If you roll the shoulder your elbow wings out, and you will be hating life when you get older, but I'm just sayin'



There is a hunch that you are supposed to adopt for technical correct boxing. Your elbows don't wing out because of shoulder roll. They do it because of poor technique.


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## drop bear (Sep 17, 2014)

donnaTKD said:


> i always roll my shoulders through so the punch hits with as much force as i can generate and aim to punch all the way through --- never had a problem with it and i've won plenty of scraps too
> 
> you're not aiming to hit the bag person or whatever --- you're aiming for the space directly behind it.  i think maybe you're scared of hurting yourself so you're not hitting it prpoerly --- maybe



Yeah that can be a bit iffy. You sort of do but you also are supposed to land that shot at the end of your range. So you can take the punch through idea to far. Landing the punch closer than a good arm extension. Loosing a bit of velocity and then trying to make up for power by punching through.

What you wind up doing is pushing. Which doesn't hurt the other guy as much as just a crisp hit on and wastes a lot of energy.

It is like fast punching vs heavy punching.

So for a person that is pushing you tell you them to punch on the target not through.


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