# Taijutsu complements



## Pelnupti (Jul 20, 2005)

Taijutsu (by whichever lineage) is a very complete martial art.  But that doesn't mean it covers everything; I believe other threads have already addressed some of its lackings.

In your opinion, which martial art complements it the best?  I mean, which one covers a lot of the areas where Taijutsu is lacking (e.g. groundfighting and confined spaces and super-close-range), but doesn't cover a lot of things Taijutsu does?


----------



## stephen (Jul 20, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> Taijutsu (by whichever lineage) is a very complete martial art.  But that doesn't mean it covers everything; I believe other threads have already addressed some of its lackings.
> 
> In your opinion, which martial art complements it the best?  I mean, which one covers a lot of the areas where Taijutsu is lacking (e.g. groundfighting and confined spaces and super-close-range), but doesn't cover a lot of things Taijutsu does?



Find-a-good-taijutsu-teacher-ryu


----------



## Pelnupti (Jul 20, 2005)

It's not my teacher's fault there are lackings in Taijutsu; it's the cirruculum's fault.  No martial art can be complete, because there will always be something that some other martial art has.  While I personally enjoy Taijutsu a great deal, I'm not going to sit back and pretend it's perfect in every way (while it is a very completem artial art).

All I was asking is, what's the functional inverse of Taijutsu?


----------



## rutherford (Jul 20, 2005)

Standing perfectly still with your eyes closed, your hands over your ears, and holding your breath until you pass out would be a pretty good inverse.


----------



## Floating Egg (Jul 20, 2005)

I'm not sure I have an answer to your question, but I would like to add that we do train in the areas that you mentioned (e.g. groundfighting and confined spaces and super-close-range).


----------



## MJS (Jul 21, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> It's not my teacher's fault there are lackings in Taijutsu; it's the cirruculum's fault.  No martial art can be complete, because there will always be something that some other martial art has.  While I personally enjoy Taijutsu a great deal, I'm not going to sit back and pretend it's perfect in every way (while it is a very completem artial art).
> 
> All I was asking is, what's the functional inverse of Taijutsu?



While I do not study BBT, I have had this same debate with people in the Kenpo world.  There was a time when I thought that there was no grappling in Kenpo.  I could not see how a Kenpoist would address the ground in the fashion that a BJJ stylist would.  After talking to a few other Kenpoists, I had my eyes opened to how Kenpo addresses the ground.  Many of the techniques that are done standing can be applied to the ground, though a slight variation may have to be made.  That being said, I have to disagree with your statement that its not your teachers fault.  My old Kenpo teachers could not address this, and it took the knowledge of others to open my eyes.  Just because one person does not do it, does not mean that everyone is lumped into that same group.  In addition, it also comes down to how each individual trains.

Again, I do not study BBT, but I do know that there are many excellent teachers of the art out there.  I'm sure they all have their own unique way of teaching.

Mike


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 21, 2005)

The things you're asking to learn aren't lacking. You just haven't seen them yet.


----------



## Bigshadow (Jul 21, 2005)

Nimravus said:
			
		

> The things you're asking to learn aren't lacking. You just haven't seen them yet.


  So true!  It is there.  When they get there they will see it.


----------



## stephen (Jul 21, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> All I was asking is, what's the functional inverse of Taijutsu?



Death.




			
				Pelnupti said:
			
		

> It's not my teacher's fault there are lackings in Taijutsu; it's the cirruculum's fault.  No martial art can be complete, because there will always be something that some other martial art has.  While I personally enjoy Taijutsu a great deal, I'm not going to sit back and pretend it's perfect in every way (while it is a very completem artial art).



How can you know the "gaps" if you don't understand the taijutsu? 

It seems that the people who have been training longer see fewer gaps. I trust them.


----------



## Kizaru (Jul 21, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> Taijutsu (by whichever lineage) is a very complete martial art.


There are 9 ryu ha in the Bujinkan; Koto ryu, Gyokko ryu, Shindenfudo ryu, Takagi Yoshin ryu, Kukishinden ryu, Togakure ryu, Gikan ryu, Gyokkshin ryu and Kumogakure ryu. Each one has some sort of unarmed fighting or "Taijutsu" component to them. They all each have their own characteristics. Some address alot of ground fighting, some more striking...



			
				Pelnupti said:
			
		

> But that doesn't mean it covers everything; I believe other threads have already addressed some of its lackings.


In my opinion, it's usually the practitioner, not the system that has "lackings".



			
				Pelnupti said:
			
		

> In your opinion, which martial art complements it the best?


The nine ryu tend to compliment each other. Koto ryu compliments Gyokko ryu. Takagi Yoshin ryu compliments Kukishinden ryu dakentaijutsu. Shindenfudo ryu Daken and Jutai compliment each other.



			
				Pelnupti said:
			
		

> (e.g. groundfighting and confined spaces and super-close-range), but doesn't cover a lot of things Taijutsu does?


Takagi Yoshin ryu, Shinden Fudo ryu Jutaijutsu and the Okuden level of Koto ryu cover alot of groundfighting. Gyokko ryu has tools for "super close range"...I could go on and on. 

I'd say, find where you're lacking first. Then bring those issues to your teacher and ask for help. If you don't get an adequate answer, find a new teacher. (An adequate answer doesn't mean "instant solution" either.)


----------



## rutherford (Jul 21, 2005)

stephen said:
			
		

> Death.



Really?  I see Taijutsu as the study of natural body movement.  While death has the stillness component locked up, it's about as natural as you can get.

How about a school of fighting that advocated standing on your hands the whole time.  Would that be a good inverse?


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Jul 21, 2005)

I hear skilled exponents of Harimau silat train to be able to use their hands as their feet, and vice versa.


----------



## Shogun (Aug 9, 2005)

> The things you're asking to learn aren't lacking. You just haven't seen them yet.


I agree and disagree with this. While I believe it to be true, (as BBT has SSOOO much in it) I dont think its very practical if "_it takes 30 years to learn to get back on your feet from the ground_" or what not. "hiding" techniques is a very good skill in Taijutsu. but, completly keeping it from the student is not. If the skill is hidden within another skill, its mor valuable. but to not show a technique to someone, a technique that could potentially save their life is almost careless. 

But, for the sake of the thread, however pointless it is:BBT will not necessarliy benefit from another art, but how another art trains. thats all i'm saying.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 9, 2005)

I think the problem with Taijutsu is not that it lacks a lot, but rather that it does not concentrate on any one area enough to compete with an art that does.

There are things to do on the ground in BBT. But the Gracies train so much more in that area than we do and their art is pretty much geared toward that aspect. We do knife and stick work- but there are arts that only deal with those weapons and their art has evolved to that reality.

How much ground work do knife arts do? How much work with a knife do the Gracies do?

So I think the problem is that if you try to get better at any one aspect of the art you are going to become a specialist and other areas of your taijutsu may become unbalanced.


----------



## Shogun (Aug 9, 2005)

Beautiful. Well said. One thing though....





> I think the problem with Taijutsu is not that it lacks a lot, but rather that it does not concentrate on any one area enough to compete with an art that does.


Is this really a problem?

The only problem i've had with Taijutsu, is how The curriclum is so all over the place, every one does things different, and its hard to get a question answered. That and I like a little Randori every now and then, but thats a different story thats been covered a trillion times.


----------



## Wild Bill (Aug 10, 2005)

I have'nt studied BBT since I was a kid but since I haven't drank the special kool aid I can actually answer the question.

Kali will give you more realistic weapons work. Many people carry a pocket knife and you might find a stick on the street, but when are you going to be attacked while your carrying your sword.

Silat has more realistic grappling than BJJ in my opinion and it is also a knife art. The ability to grapple with a knife could be a very useful skill.

I have only seen a small amount of Lua but I like what I saw. Really good for extreme close quarters combat. 

The most important thing about these three arts is that they have very natural flowing footwork and the skills fit right in with BBT. It wouldn't be like trying to learn Aikido if you were coming from a Shotokan background.


----------



## Grey Eyed Bandit (Aug 10, 2005)

Wild Bill said:
			
		

> Kali will give you more realistic weapons work. Many people carry a pocket knife and you might find a stick on the street, but when are you going to be attacked while your carrying your sword.


Roughly two years ago a nutcase with a katana chopped up two old ladies 
right around the corner from our dojo. Also, FMA practitioners should know that the purpose of training with weapons is to build attributes rather than to become the new Highlander.



			
				Wild Bill said:
			
		

> Silat has more realistic grappling than BJJ in my opinion and it is also a knife art. The ability to grapple with a knife could be a very useful skill.


Quoted from Serge Mol's book "Classical Fighting Arts of Japan":

"_Regardless of the tactics used to overcome an enemy, the coup the grace would usually be given with the heavy-duty dagger known as yoroi doshi, With its sturdy blade construction and shape (either minimally curved or straight) it was specifically suited for stabbing and piercing, allowing any weak points in an opponent's armor to be fully exploited....Being able to reach one's dagger, or the enemy for that matter, could mean the difference between life and death in the critical last stage of close combat. It must have been particularly distressing when a warrior who had not yet managed to draw his dagger, found himself unable to reach it, being pinned down by an enemy who was about to cut his throat. To improve their chances, some warriors carried several daggers...."_


----------



## Brother John (Aug 10, 2005)

Ok.... I'm not a practitioner of Ninjutsu/Budo Taijutsu, but I'm sort of .....an enthusiast. (for now) But: I do try to exercise some logic from time to time.

Lets take each of your statements and consider them in turn:


> It's not my teacher's fault there are lackings in Taijutsu; it's the cirruculum's fault.



I don't know you. I don't know your instructor...so I can't possibly judge this. BUT: Isn't it very likely that if you are experiencing 'holes' in the Budo Taijutsu curriculum that they could be due to having had little exposure to EVERYTHING that your instructor teaches? If you aren't very high ranking, it's most probable that you've not seen it all yet. It gets taught in a logical progression....not one huge panoramic view. IF you know the Bujinkan system well enough and deep enough to be able to make the judgement that there are things lacking....then obviously you know the whole system. ((VERY VERY impressive)) If you don't know the WHOLE system, then you can't possibly know IF it has 'holes' or not or is lacking a thing.  Also: Couldn't it be just as likely that it's not Budo Taijutsu that has something lacking in it's curriculum but that maybe something is lacking from Your instructor's Budo Taijutsu knowledge/training? Not a put down, just an observation. Look at the 9 ryu-ha. Look at the scope of their study. Seems to me it'd be a strange claim that you know enough of it to make this assesment of the whole curriculum and it's faults.



> No martial art can be complete, because there will always be something that some other martial art has.



Strange statement. Just because another art has "something" in it's curriculum that Budo Taijutsu does not....that makes Budo Taijutsu incomplete???? I don't understand how you reach THAT conclusion. 
Tae Kwan Do has dramatic, dynamic arial kicks in which the person twists and turns in the air...delivering multiple kicks. ((I won't go into the logic of even doing such a feat in combat....that's another thread))...Budo Taijutsu doesn't do such things. Is THAT a hole in B-Tj ?? I wouldn't think so. Just because another art has "something" that B-Tj does not....doesn't mean that there's a "hole" in the curriculum. 

Now I'm going to make a point by simply putting two of your own lines back to back....draw your own conclusions:


> ...there are lackings in Taijutsu





> No martial art can be complete



Compared to this:


> I'm not going to sit back and pretend it's perfect in every way (while it is a very completem artial art).


Is it complete? Or can NO art be complete??????

I guess I just don't see what your point is.
How about you help us see. Since you know enough of the curriculum to claim that it is "lacking" (even though it is "Very complete")...please, tell us... WHAT specifically is it lacking????
Thanks

Your Brother  (Who's made mistakes in wording before too, and will again...)
John


----------



## Cryozombie (Aug 10, 2005)

Wild Bill said:
			
		

> since I haven't drank the special kool aid I can actually answer the question.


When Do I get the kool aid?


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

stephen said:
			
		

> Find-a-good-taijutsu-teacher-ryu


 I agree! Is it a lack of techniques or a lack of vision? Some people become too impatient. It takes time to get there, whereever THERE is.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> No martial art can be complete


 Why not?  Please explain.


----------



## Brother John (Aug 10, 2005)

Wild Bill said:
			
		

> I have'nt studied BBT since I was a kid but since I haven't drank the special kool aid I can actually answer the question.
> 
> Kali will give you more realistic weapons work. Many people carry a pocket knife and you might find a stick on the street, but when are you going to be attacked while your carrying your sword
> Silat has more realistic grappling than BJJ in my opinion and it is also a knife art. The ability to grapple with a knife could be a very useful skill.
> ...


I like the arts you mentioned there Bill, Good stuff!!
But are you saying that Bujinkan Budotaijutsu DOESN'T have stick & knife work? That a well rounded BBT practitioner COULDN'T grapple with a knife? (as in use a knife while grappling) Or DOESN'T have good solid 'ground work'? Are you saying that BBT DOESN'T have excellent close quarters combat?
I think you see what I'm saying. The fact that these other arts do these things well does Not then mean that they are things "lacking" in Budo Taijutsu.

Besides, sword work is just fun.


Your Brother
John
PS: I'm not in Ninjutsu, Bujinkan or otherwise.
I don't even like Kool Aid.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

Shogun said:
			
		

> The only problem i've had with Taijutsu, is how The curriclum is so all over the place, every one does things different, and its hard to get a question answered.


 I keep seeing curriculum alot. As far as I know, Hatsumi Soke does not have a curriculum per sey. It is my opinion that people worry so much over the techniques that they miss the principles which the kata and techniques embody. To me a curriculum is a way to codify the art and somehow I feel that something is getting lost in the translation.

 Yes, it is important to know techniques, but there are levels beyond technique and we should try and see that. Let me be clear, I don't see a whole lot, but I strive to see and feel more every time I train.

 Going with that thought, I feel that if we get caught up in technique collecting we will never see the universal application of the principles involved and feel that we must find other techniques to fill "perceived" gaps. 

   Folks, this is just my honest opinion.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

Wild Bill said:
			
		

> I have'nt studied BBT since I was a kid but since I haven't drank the special kool aid I can actually answer the question.


 Oh, so you mastered the art of BBT when you were a child?



			
				Wild Bill said:
			
		

> Kali will give you more realistic weapons work. Many people carry a pocket knife and you might find a stick on the street, but when are you going to be attacked while your carrying your sword.


 I have to disagree with your assessment of our training. First and foremost, you have completely misunderstood the purpose of training with a sword or weapons in general and long weapons more specifically with regard to our art. We train with swords, not because we plan to use them or defend against them. There are lessons to be learned by using a sword or defending against a sword that is applicable to a knife, a fist, or a baseball bat. I will leave it at that.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

Technopunk said:
			
		

> When Do I get the kool aid?


  Good point.  I was trying to ignore that part, it was childish and a bit disdainful.


----------



## Wild Bill (Aug 10, 2005)

Pelnupti said:
			
		

> In your opinion, which martial art complements it the best? I mean, which one covers a lot of the areas where Taijutsu is lacking (e.g. groundfighting and confined spaces and super-close-range), but doesn't cover a lot of things Taijutsu does?


So far I believe I am the only one who has answered this question.  Every other post was dedicated to telling Pelnupti that his instructor wasn't good enough and that Pelnupti didn't know enough to know what he was talking about. Some were respectful, some sounded condescendin.  That's why I made the kool aid comment.  I really wasn't trying to offend anyone but apparently I struck a nerve.

I don't know Pelnupti but I am assuming that he is an individual who can make logical decisions based on his experiance.  I also have that ability.  I don't need to be an expert in BBT to make some suggestions on complimentory arts based on my personal experiance.  

Unfortunatly by making this post I am also guilty of taking the thread off of the original subject.  Anyone who has questions about my experiance and thoughts on BBT is welcome to send me a message but this will be my last post on this thread unless someone else has something to say about arts that compliment BBT.  I am not getting into an internet peeing contest.  At least not on this thread.  If someone started a thread on why they think I'm a jerk then I might respond if I have time


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 10, 2005)

I don't think there is an answer to your question.  I do not believe there is a compliment.

  However, if you question had been *"Is there another martial art I can take that won't have a negative impact on my Taijutsu?"* I would say certainly, there are some.

  I think Systema and possibly Silat could be practiced without adversly affecting your Taijutsu.  

 However, my question would be why? To spend time training in another art takes away from the time that could be spent training and getting good in BBT.


----------



## MisterMike (Aug 10, 2005)

When someone is looking for techniques for a certain situation, like ground fighting, I'd say that they are only looking at the art on a technique level, rather than a principle level.

If the art has solid principles, then they should be applied to all situations. We cannot sit back and wait to be shown every technique - else we'll still be at a very fundamental level when we are all 65. If you pick up the principles, there will be fewer of them compared to techniques, and they'll stick with you.

Just my short blurb - hope it helps.


----------



## Don Roley (Aug 11, 2005)

Bigshadow said:
			
		

> Why not?  Please explain.



I think it is because no person can master every last aspect of a field such as martial arts to an extent that they can out do those that specialize in particular areas.

Take a look at something like medicine. There are general practicioners. But they are not the ones that would be doing corrective surgery on your eyes. And the ones that did that would not be the ones that would be dealing with a patient with cancer. 

To bring it back to martial arts, both police and military folks tend to use the term "combatives" when talking about their unarmed stuff. But as a soldier I learned to sneak up on a sentry and snap his neck as part of our combatives class. Can you imagine a police officer doing that?

I do not think that any one person can be as good as the Gracies at ground fighting, as good as the Katori Shinto ryu in the use of the sword, as good as some of the Philipino masters in the use of the short stick, etc. And a style is limited to what a single person can learn in his lifetime.

The Bujinkan does a lot of things well. But none of them as well as those that specialize in those aspects.


----------



## Bigshadow (Aug 11, 2005)

Don Roley said:
			
		

> I do not think that any one person can be as good as the Gracies at ground fighting, as good as the Katori Shinto ryu in the use of the sword, as good as some of the Philipino masters in the use of the short stick, etc. And a style is limited to what a single person can learn in his lifetime.
> 
> The Bujinkan does a lot of things well. But none of them as well as those that specialize in those aspects.


  Don,

 I don't disagree with that. However, a person could spend a lifetime trying to be better than any person of any specialty, when in a martial sense there are universal principles (not unique to our art) that apply to the human body and human combat. By learning these things, we can become good at many things. Could we beat the Gracies on their turf, probably not in this lifetime. However, can the Gracies handle multiple attackers in a street situation with their ground fighting skills? Do we train to handle multiple attackers? Yes. On the ground? Yes.

 When people talk about these specialties and people like the Gracies, I cannot help to equate that to a person who is better than everyone else at Omote Gyaku, but that is all they are specialists at, everything else is left to suffer.

 Outside of the ring, if the Gracies were truely fighting for their lives with unknown number of attackers, how effective do you think they would be? 

      What they do is designed for the ring and in my opinion is not suited to true survival.  

 For instance, why would I want to tie myself up with someone on the ground just so his buddy can stab me in the back? It doesn't make sense in the real world. 

 In summary, what I am saying is we can spend forever trying to learn all these specialties and never getting all of them, or we can learn the universal principles of combat and let that guide us as a situation unfolds.

      What happens to the sword master when he loses his sword?

      Just my thoughts and opinions guys.  I am learning like everyone else here.

      Train safe,
      David


----------

