# ZNKR Iaido



## Ken Morgan (Aug 17, 2011)

A video showing all 12 kata of seitei iaido. I think i may be the only one here who practices this....or am i wrong about that?


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## pgsmith (Aug 17, 2011)

I thought you were another MJER junkie. Didn't know you still practiced seitei.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 17, 2011)

We don't do Seitei, I have to confess.  My sensei thinks the idea was good at heart (i.e. to have a kata set that everybody knows, regardless of school) but that the subsequent brouhaha about whether it's 'real' Iai has poisoned the broth, so to speak.


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 17, 2011)

I practice Seitei iai and MJER iai..and MSR jodo and Seitei Jodo, and Niten, and a handful of other things that have slipped my mind right now!! 

Suk seitei is just another set of kata, youd recognise and be proficient at most of them anyway. The whole koryu vs. Seitei argument is crap, all of it brought about by those that dont do seitei. If you want to be part of the ZNKR, you do seitei, if you dont want to be in the ZNKR, you dont practice seitei.

What are your senseis argument against it?

Know what the big secret about sword schools is? Itsall.the..same!!!!


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## Sanke (Aug 18, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Know what the big secret about sword schools is? Itsall.the..same!!!!


 
I don't entirely agree with that, gotta say. 
I do agree that they the same in the sense that they all use a shiny sharp thing to cut other, less shiny things, but it's the attitude and mindset that really separates them (leaving aside the issue of technical differences)

I certainly don't think seitei is a lesser sword art, by any means (I've dabbled in it from time to time), but it's attitude just doesn't gel with me.

I know others that it does work for, and I have a lot of respect for them.   I wouldn't hesitate to say that they are far better swordsman than I am.

But for me, personally, I prefer more koryu-based sword arts, which tend to have more of a cut-first-ask-questions-never attitude (not to say all koryu are like that), whereas  seitei seems to have more focus on deterring the attacker from drawing in the first place (though I'll defer to you on that one)


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## Chris Parker (Aug 18, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> I practice Seitei iai and MJER iai&#8230;&#8230;..and MSR jodo and Seitei Jodo, and Niten, and a handful of other things that have slipped my mind right now!!
> 
> Suk seitei is just another set of kata, you&#8217;d recognise and be proficient at most of them anyway. The whole koryu vs. Seitei argument is crap, all of it brought about by those that don&#8217;t do seitei. If you want to be part of the ZNKR, you do seitei, if you don&#8217;t want to be in the ZNKR, you don&#8217;t practice seitei.
> 
> ...



Ha, Ken, my friend, we've been here before.... and you know my take on this!

While you (and Langenschwert) look for the similarities in these differing approaches to the sword, I tend to look for the differences that separate them. To me, it's the differences and unique approaches that makes the different systems worth learning about and studying, if they were truly all the same, then why so many Ryu-ha? As a result, to me, there's no such thing as "just another set of kata", each set is an expression of a unique approach. 

I'm not sure what Suke's Sensei's arguments against Seitei are, but for me, it's too homogenised, the essence of a unique philosophical and tactical approach is lost, there are too many compromises for that very reason, I'm not a hundred per cent fond of the wearing position for the sword, and (admittedly this is a little hard to phrase, but I'll try), I train in sword systems for a specific mindset and "feel", and Seitei, by being, as a Seitei instructor said to me, "Iai formed by a committee", it just doesn't quite have that for me. Don't get me wrong, I love seeing it done well, and can see huge numbers of benefits from the approach of absolute technical perfection, ensuring every action is completely deliberate and idealised, but it just ain't for me.

Oh, by the way, didn't you mean "SMR Jodo"?


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## Aiki Lee (Aug 18, 2011)

So after checking wikipedia, i gather that seitei iaido is like some kind of standardized iai style that teaches the mecahnics of techniques from other schools?

And Chris, what do u not like about the way the sword is worn? As inexperienced as I am with swords I don't see how it is different from any other Japanese sword system.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for bumping this thread up.  I meant to answer Ken before and it slipped my mind in the lateness of the hour {plus I'm pretty unwell at the moment and the pain and antibiotics are knocking me for six when it comes to mental acuity } .

I have never asked Sensei directly why we don't learn Seitei but he has, over the years, made it clear that he considers that it is the role of someone teaching koryu to keep his students as close as he can to the 'heart' of the art {:chuckles: that wasn't meant to rhyme }.

So I would say that why he doesn't teach it, as Chris said above, is precisely because it is a deliberately compromised form of Iai.  Doesn't mean that is is bad in-and-of itself of course and I can see that I shall learn it one day, assuming that it does not go the way of Esperanto .


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## Langenschwert (Aug 18, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> I practice Seitei iai and MJER iai&#8230;&#8230;..and MSR jodo and Seitei Jodo, and Niten, and a handful of other things that have slipped my mind right now!!



Slacker! 

Nice vid... who was that?

It is all the same, and it's all different. 

@ Chris:

I do look for similarities, but also for differences. Depending on the situation, either can be more interesting. When I was first exposed to Niten, I enjoyed how closely it dovetailed with Liechtenauer's art in general principle, even if the handwork is quite different. Reading Go Rin No Sho reminds me a lot of Dobringer (which is a must-read, along with George Silver). So to me that was fascinating.

But the differences are neat as well, for example Liechtenauer vs. Fiore. Fiore studied under German masters, but his style doesn't seem very "German", even if it contains a lot of the same things. It has a different "feel" to it, and that's also very interesting to me.

The whole Koryu vs. Seitei thing doesn't really bother me much. I like Kim's take on that, actually.

and Ken, if you're ever in Calgary, drop on by and add some German longsword to your list. 

Best regards,

-Mark


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## Senjojutsu (Aug 18, 2011)

This is written with tongue-in-cheek as an outside observer - so please take no offense.

There is a competitive & loud Japanese sport called KENDO &#8211; which naïve round-eyes believe translate as &#8220;Way of the Sword&#8221; in English. The more precise translation of the kanji should be read as &#8220;sadists and masochists&#8221;.

Back during the 1960s many of the Japanese Kendo Senior Sensei, who were also accomplished &#8220;old school&#8221; Iaido master of various traditional styles wanted to introduce a curriculum of study that would represent the key elements of the fundamentals aspects of Iaido study &#8211; the draw from the scabbard, the finishing cut, blocking with the sword, thrusting with the sword, striking an opponent with the sword hilt, kneeling and standing posture techniques etc. 

The first seven techniques were formally adopted in 1967 and are also commonly known ZNKR Seitei (as in fundamental) Kata. In 1980 the next three techniques were added and in 2000 came number eleven and twelve. These techniques were derived, with modifications, from older sword style techniques. So right off the bat &#8211; the old adage that &#8220;_a camel is nothing but a horse designed by a committee_&#8221; came out from the critics&#8217; mouths. 

So across various nation states of this world, often located within higher educational facilities Kendo followers (kend&#333;ka) diligently practice & train *KENDO*. IF and it is &#8220;*AN IF*&#8221; the Kendo club members train in Iaido as a bonus feature so be it.

But as already posted the Seitei forms were meant to be a beginner&#8217;s &#8220;universal language&#8221; to introduce Iaido basics and to be used as a judging (exam) methodology. Only after the student showed sufficient proficiency during exams would he/she be allowed to eat at the adult Iaido table and get introduced to whatever old school style the local Kendo club teacher studied (_e.g.,_ MJER, MSR, Mugai Ryu and so on). In reality often the local Kendo club students trained only briefly with the Seitei set and advanced their study no further. So many students believed &#8211; erroneously - it to be a style onto itself.

As Sukerkin correctly noted the acceptance of Seitei with Iaido traditionalists is complicated - or to be more blunt &#8220;estranged&#8221; - like being married to Charlie Sheen. There (shockingly) are often organizational politics involved too &#8211; I know &#8211; a totally unknown concept in the American or British Martial Arts world. One problem since the &#8216;60s - often traditional iai style groups will adopt Seitei as an adjunct study into their curriculum (reconciliation phase) until the next &#8220;estrangement&#8221; phase with the ZNKR happens. That is why there is a lot of 95% Seitei forms being practiced by &#8220;Heathens&#8221; out there.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 18, 2011)

There needs to be a button for "Thanks for that informative and humorous post! .


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## Ken Morgan (Aug 18, 2011)

Sukerkin said:


> is precisely because it is a deliberately compromised form of Iai.



Suk.....what does that mean? Because it is 43 years old? Because it takes kata from koryu and tweaks them? The effort, focus and intent i put into my MJER, SMR )) Jodo and my Niten, is the same I bring to the table with my Seitei. So how is my iai compromised? In that regard my seitei jo should be compromised as well. 

Chris why are their so many differnet schools? Because everyone who had the least bit of talent in the JSA opened a school so they could make money and earn a reputation. How many football, rugby, soccer, hockey and cricket players open up schools to train the next generation, plus make some coin? The instructors of old had to earn a living too.


When i go through MJER I change slightly, physically, not mentally, how I do my kata as i progress through from Omori to Oku iai. I change it again in Seitei. Same with seitei jo and koryu jo. There are only so many targets, and so many ways to swing a sword.

If I ever get my *** out to Calgary again, after teh hot springs in Baniff, I'll meet you for some WSA Langenschwert.


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## Sukerkin (Aug 19, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> Suk.....what does that mean?



I think you took the word "compromised" in it's negative form, mate.  I didn't mean it like that.  I didn't mean 'compromised' as in 'broken' but 'compromised' as in 'amended to meld the multifarious views of the contributors'.


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## Chris Parker (Aug 19, 2011)

Langenschwert said:


> Slacker!



Ha, agreed! You're almost doing as much as me, there, Ken, better step it up!



Langenschwert said:


> Nice vid... who was that?



Again agreed.



Langenschwert said:


> It is all the same, and it's all different.



And once more, agreed. It just depends on how you're approaching it, really.



Langenschwert said:


> @ Chris:
> 
> I do look for similarities, but also for differences. Depending on the situation, either can be more interesting. When I was first exposed to Niten, I enjoyed how closely it dovetailed with Liechtenauer's art in general principle, even if the handwork is quite different. Reading Go Rin No Sho reminds me a lot of Dobringer (which is a must-read, along with George Silver). So to me that was fascinating.
> 
> But the differences are neat as well, for example Liechtenauer vs. Fiore. Fiore studied under German masters, but his style doesn't seem very "German", even if it contains a lot of the same things. It has a different "feel" to it, and that's also very interesting to me.



I completely agree that there are definite similarities, and a lot of cross-over, but to me, in order to be an actual practitioner of a system, rather than a generic swordsman, means getting into the details of the individual systems themselves. As a result, the differences are everything to me, as the similarities are pretty clear from the outset. That said, you have given me a couple more things to look for for my bookshelf... 



Langenschwert said:


> The whole Koryu vs. Seitei thing doesn't really bother me much. I like Kim's take on that, actually.



Again, it's in the personal approach to it all, I feel.



Langenschwert said:


> and Ken, if you're ever in Calgary, drop on by and add some German longsword to your list.
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> -Mark



And now you're just trying to make the rest of us jealous.....



Himura Kenshin said:


> So after checking wikipedia, i gather that seitei iaido is like some kind of standardized iai style that teaches the mecahnics of techniques from other schools?



Ah, Wiki, such a great and troubled source... I'd say yes and no. Yes in that is is a standardised form of Iai (that's really what Seitei means, after all - &#21046;&#23450; "system fix (in place)", or, as a compound as it is found here, "established", or "formalised"), but no in that I wouldn't say that it teaches the mechanics from other schools (by throwing them all in together randomly), it more teaches basic sword handling by utilising expressions of kata from a range of schools. It's a subtle difference, but it's there and it's important none-the-less.



Himura Kenshin said:


> And Chris, what do u not like about the way the sword is worn? As inexperienced as I am with swords I don't see how it is different from any other Japanese sword system.



Actually, each different system has it's own preference for how the sword is worn, the type of furniture and fittings that are preferred, and so on, as well as having it's own sense of grip, angling, distancing, and so on. The position for the sword in Seitei Iai, as it was never designed for actual usage against an opponent, but instead more to give Kendoka a sense of handling a real sword, certain changes were made to things like the position it is worn. Essentially, the Seitei position has the tsuba a little further across the body, positioned basically in front of the hara. This allows the draw to be done with a smaller movement of the hips, as the sword is already moved around more in line, but it removes the position in your obi to place a short sword or knife (tanto). A number of older systems actually perform Iai with a secondary blade in the obi, in some cases utilising the shorter weapon during the kata. By repositioning the sword in such a way, it removes the use of the sword from a combative application in it's outset.



Ken Morgan said:


> Suk.....what does that mean? Because it is 43 years old? Because it takes kata from koryu and tweaks them? The effort, focus and intent i put into my MJER, SMR )) Jodo and my Niten, is the same I bring to the table with my Seitei. So how is my iai compromised? In that regard my seitei jo should be compromised as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Namii (Aug 19, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> A video showing all 12 kata of seitei iaido. I think i may be the only one here who practices this....or am i wrong about that?


I do this , ever since I went to the seminar last month Ive been doing these along with my other stuff. I enjoy it as its still new to me.


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## Langenschwert (Aug 19, 2011)

Ken Morgan said:


> If I ever get my *** out to Calgary again, after teh hot springs in Baniff, I'll meet you for some WSA Langenschwert.



You should probably do it the other way around.  

Last night's training consisted of:

Warmup (stretching, jumping jacks, etc)
Longsword basics (guard transitions)
Longsword technique (1st and 2nd Windings from the bind)
Circuit training (5 stations: jab cross hook combo, cut kicks, front kicks, sword cutting, jumping jacks)
Ground fighting
Longsword sparring (and one guy with bowie knife and tomahawk... American Niten, if you will!)
And then we went for beers. 

If you come for our monthly "condidtioning" class, be prepared for hell. Takes some of us nearly a week to recover.

Best regards,

-Mark


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