# 52 Blocks on Wing Chun Dummy



## KPM (Mar 27, 2018)




----------



## Nobody Important (Mar 27, 2018)

KPM said:


>


This is interesting. I don't know much about 52 Blocks, but from what you show in the video I, personally, don't see anything different from the Wing Chun I studied other than terminology. How is 52 Blocks different? Approach, strategy, techniques? Just trying to get a better understanding of the method, thanks.


----------



## KPM (Mar 27, 2018)

52 Blocks is a very defensive method.  It is based primarily on covers and meant to be used in tight spaces.  Lyte Burly calls it a "pressure relief method".....meaning you feel the pressure of the attack and "weather the storm" and then fill the gap that the opponent leaves, with your own counter-punches.  Many of the "blocks" or covers can also be elbow strikes when used offensively.  One training method is "slap boxing", or using palm strikes instead of punches.  If you don't have any protective equipment, then throwing palms against the partner's "blocks" is more forgiving than using fists.  But in application the palm strikes can be very effective and avoid a broken hand!   But 52 still uses the western boxing "engine" or biomechanics.  The footwork is very "light" and fast with evasive body movement because the emphasis is on defense, but again...the idea is to be able to survive a barrage of punches until you can land your own shots.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 27, 2018)

KPM said:


> the idea is to be able to survive a barrage of punches until you can land your own shots.


I don't understand this strategy. Why not just wrap his punching arm during his 1st or 2nd punch?

After you have wrapped your opponent's punching arm, you can:

- headbutt him,
- palm strike him,
- elbow him,
- take him down,
- ...

At least you can put your opponent in defense mode instead of to let your opponent to put you in defense mode.

I do understand a striker may think differently from a wrestler. But after you have taken your opponent down, you can still punch him in the ground game if you want to.


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand this strategy. Why not just wrap his punching arm during his 1st or 2nd punch?



That does happen!  One of the "blocks" is called "Book Reading Stance" and it is explicitly an arm trap/wrap. But it isn't as easy as you seem to think when an opponent is throwing combinations of fast hard punches!


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

Here is a video I made last summer.  I wasn't even thinking of 52 Blocks at the time.  But what I am showing here is essentially the "Close Door/Open Door" block.   And John, note that arm wrap!  ;-)


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 28, 2018)

for those looking for info on 52 blocks.  its a way of fighting developed in prisons.  there have been a few questions asked so far in this thread maybe the context of being in prison might help in understanding the tactics and strategies.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> Here is a video I made last summer.  I wasn't even thinking of 52 Blocks at the time.  But what I am showing here is essentially the "Close Door/Open Door" block.   And John, note that arm wrap!  ;-)


We need to look at "fist fight" from a different angle here.

When you put your hand too close to your own head, you give your opponent too much free space to generate his fast and powerful punches. It's like to set up your anti-missile system at Washington DC and allow your enemy's missiles to fly freely in the US air space. IMO, you should knock down enemy missiles outside of the US coastline.

WC people don't like to chase hand. But if your opponent's hand will give you trouble, chase hand can be a good strategy. You don't chase hand. You chase the upper arm of that hand instead. It's not that difficult to extend your arm between your opponent's head and his arm. The opportunity will always be there. The moment that your opponent's hand moves away from his head, the moment that opponent will offer to you.


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

*When you put your hand too close to your own head, you give your opponent too much free space to generate his fast and powerful punches. *

---Maybe!  But it is a strategy that has worked well for Boxers as well as 52 Blocks guys for several generations now!  ;-)


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

As a follow up....I started this thread showing some 52 Blocks on the dummy.  Here is some 52 Blocks on BOB.


----------



## Nobody Important (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> As a follow up....I started this thread showing some 52 Blocks on the dummy.  Here is some 52 Blocks on BOB.


Hi Keith,

Admittedly I know very little of 52 Blocks, but so far, what you have shown is absolutely no different shape wise, technique wise or use wise than the Wing Chun I studied. Perhaps the Wing Chun I studied is a little different than others, but those covers can easily be found in the San Sik and forms, so I doubt it is all that different from other Wing Chun branches in that respect. What sets 52 Blocks apart from what appears to be a Wing Chun/Boxing hybrid? So far as I can tell it's about weathering a storm but avoiding the clinch. Perhaps I'm way off base here but I'm not seeing much to differentiate it from Wing Chun as I know it. Can you give a little more insight?


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

^^^^ Dave, we have to get together for some training and sharing some time!  I would love to see how you are applying your Wing Chun!  Because most Ip Man Wing Chun people would not say what you are saying or see what you are seeing!    But what you are seeing is exactly why I like 52 Blocks so much and am using it as the Boxing side of my own "Wing Chun Boxing."  I don't think these similarities between 52 and Wing Chun are by design.  Lyte Burly has studied Wing Chun in the past, but he didn't create 52 Blocks.  It has been around for a long time, and his teacher Rahmel Scott never studied any Wing Chun.  Maybe it is because both 52 Blocks and Wing Chun are meant to be "close-range" fighting methods.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 28, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I don't understand this strategy. Why not just wrap his punching arm during his 1st or 2nd punch?
> 
> After you have wrapped your opponent's punching arm, you can:
> 
> ...


I think it's time to make you a Rhino Guard T-shirt.  

Here's my idea submission for your t-shirt design. lol.   





I'll have to change it a little so that the image is unique.  I got a template ready to go. lol




You can send the $50,000 check for the design  to....... lol.


----------



## JowGaWolf (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> Here is a video I made last summer.  I wasn't even thinking of 52 Blocks at the time.  But what I am showing here is essentially the "Close Door/Open Door" block.   And John, note that arm wrap!  ;-)


Question.  I know that there are a lot of things that one can do.  So this isn't a right or wrong question that I'm about to ask.  I just want to know the reasoning behind the application.

Question:  In what situation would you perform this technique  instead of spearing just spearing the person in the face or in the chest.  If the arm is up already it would seem that only a shuffle forward would allow you to land a devastating strike.  So with that in mind.  In what context would this technique that you show be used? Does the technique open it up for a different technique?  I don't take WC so it's not going to be clear for me to see this on my own.

Oh by the way I don't have any sound, on this computer so if the explanation is in the video then I'll make a note to watch it again when I get some sound on this computer.


----------



## Nobody Important (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> ^^^^ Dave, we have to get together for some training and sharing some time!  I would love to see how you are applying your Wing Chun!  Because most Ip Man Wing Chun people would not say what you are saying or see what you are seeing!    But what you are seeing is exactly why I like 52 Blocks so much and am using it as the Boxing side of my own "Wing Chun Boxing."  I don't think these similarities between 52 and Wing Chun are by design.  Lyte Burly has studied Wing Chun in the past, but he didn't create 52 Blocks.  It has been around for a long time, and his teacher Rahmel Scott never studied any Wing Chun.  Maybe it is because both 52 Blocks and Wing Chun are meant to be "close-range" fighting methods.


If other Chunners aren't applying these basic positions, I can see why people are often confused by my comments. In all honesty, if you hadn't stated this was 52 Blocks I would have thought it was just another Wing Chun video.

Whenever you want to get together send me a pm, I've got some trips coming up so my availability is somewhat limited for the next year, but I might be able to squeeze some time in.


----------



## KPM (Mar 28, 2018)

*Question: In what situation would you perform this technique instead of spearing just spearing the person in the face or in the chest. If the arm is up already it would seem that only a shuffle forward would allow you to land a devastating strike. So with that in mind. In what context would this technique that you show be used? Does the technique open it up for a different technique? I don't take WC so it's not going to be clear for me to see this on my own.*

---Its all a matter of distance and timing.  When someone is throwing fast and hard punches you just cover up and then throw back your own punches.  If you are both moving forward at the same time then it becomes practical to spear them with the elbow into the chest or shoulder.  The danger there is that if they are backing up and you don't land it well, then they can pull your head down and hammer away!


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 28, 2018)

KPM said:


> When someone is throwing fast and hard punches you just cover up and then throw back your own punches.


If your opponent has a "Chinese zombie guard" with both arms straight and fully extended. You can punch

1. from the right side of his right arm (his right side door),
2. from the left side of his left arm (his left side door),
3. between his arms (his front door),

In side door 1, and 2, his arm can be functioned as the WC Tan Shou. In front door 3, both of his hands can hook punch on your head. The front door 3 can be considered as a trap that invite you to come in. When your hands are close to his head or body, his hands are also close to your head.

If your opponent's arms are as strong as the WC wooden dummy's arms and you can't chop his arms off, how will you punch him and not let his hands to reach to your head at the same time?


----------



## Anarax (Mar 29, 2018)

KPM said:


>



We have a lot of those entries and covers in Kali.


----------



## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

*If your opponent's arms are as strong as the WC wooden dummy's arms and you can't chop his arms off, how will you punch him and not let his hands to reach to your head at the same time?*

That's what the  "bob & weave" is for!  ;-)


----------



## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

There are different versions of 52 Blocks.  Here is a guy that does things a little different than Lyte Burly.  John....check out 8:07.  This guy uses your Rhino guard!    Also note the section where he shows the knife.  Looks a lot like Silat!


----------



## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

Here is Diallo Frazier again.  He  does not know Wing Chun.  He is just working on an "improvised" Wing Chun dummy doing his 52 Blocks.


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 29, 2018)

so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks.  if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage.  i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".


----------



## geezer (Mar 29, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks....



How legit is any MA or MA instructor? People exaggerate their training and accomplishments, or ride on the coat-tails of a famous instructor, ...some even forge lineages and certificates! In the end guess it really boils down to what you can do, and how well you can teach it.


----------



## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks.  if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage.  i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".



There are different "streams" of 52, just as there are different versions of Wing Chun!   Since it was never really "standardized" or "commercialized", different teachers with different influences have taught things a little differently.  Lyte Burly seems to put more emphasis on a "classic" western boxing framework.  Others, like Daillo Frazier almost looks like a form of Silat!  Sometimes the names of the "blocks" are a little different, even though they are doing the same thing.  "Skull & Crossbones" seems to be pretty standard, no matter who is teaching it.   And while it has a background of development behind prison walls, that wasn't always the case.  People knew it and taught it outside of prison.  Lyte Burly was never in prison that I know of.  Daillo Frazier talks about learning it on the  streets, not behind prison walls.   But regardless of who is teaching it, it always seems to have the same "look" or "flow" to it.  So it is just as legit and anyone's version of Panatukan, or "Wing Chun Boxing", etc.

Lyte Burly has been working on "standardizing" his version and how he teaches it for awhile now.  He refers to his version specifically as 52 A.O.D......meaning "Art of Defense."


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Mar 29, 2018)

I have issue with the head dodging under a hook punch as shown in this clip at 0.40. This may cause by boxing is a pure fist sport that elbow strike and wrestling guillotine are not allowed.

Boxing is a 100% fist sport. WC is much more than that. For WC system to take the boxing path, it may lead WC further away from kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. At least when you take the boxing path, you should know what's missing in that boxing path.

When your opponent throws a right hook, you dodge your head from your right to your left under that hook,

- his right elbow can strike horizontally on the right side of your head.
- his right arm can wrap your neck as reverse head lock (guillotine),






When you dodge your head under a hook, you should put the opposite palm on that hook punch elbow joint, push that hook punch arm away from you so that arm won't give you any trouble.

Here is a safe way to do a "head circling".


----------



## hoshin1600 (Mar 29, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> I have issue with the head dodging under a hook punch as shown in this clip at 0.40. This may cause by boxing is a pure fist sport that elbow strike and wrestling guillotine are not allowed.
> 
> Boxing is a 100% fist sport. WC is much more than that. For WC system to take the boxing path, it may lead WC further away from kick, punch, lock, throw, ground game integration. At least when you take the boxing path, you should know what's missing in that boxing path.
> 
> ...



if you are referring to the guy going under the rope, that is a standard bob & weave drill in boxing to slip a jab or maybe a hook.  it works.  i dont mean to criticize your clip but your attacker is not even punching at your head he is just throwing his arm out with no aim or intention.  it is clear that if you did not move at all your attacker would have hit you on the side of the head with his forearm.  you may find that if your attacker had a better punch with the intention of actually hitting you, your duck under may have different results then you think.


----------



## punisher73 (Mar 29, 2018)

hoshin1600 said:


> so my question is how legit is any version of 52 blocks.  if the system was created "behind the wall" of prison and taught there by convicts then to learn the system you would have had to been trained and taught by a convict or at least have that lineage.  i am of the opinion that there are many who say they are teaching 52 blocks when they are really just teaching the same martial art they always new but want to sound like a tough guy and have some "street cred".



From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks.  When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it.  He was a Capoeira teacher and the history sounds a lot like that history of hiding the martial art in dance form.  As more people talked about it, I believe the 2nd history that I heard.  That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks".  Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.

I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well.  I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks".  For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.


----------



## KPM (Mar 29, 2018)

*From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks.  When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it. * 

---I have seen some short clips of what is supposed to be native martial dance from the African region that looked similar.  There certainly could have been some "root" method that dated back to the days of slavery.  But if so, it has been significantly altered over time!


*I believe the 2nd history that I heard.  That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks".  Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.*

---I agree.  The "street legends" repeated on Burley's DVDs and elsewhere always seem to refer back to a small handful of guys from "back in the day."  So it likely was a collaborative effort, and I would bet the majority of it developed in the 70's during the "Kung Fu" craze.  But they seem to emphasize that some form of early 52 Blocks was around before it was ever associated with prison.

*I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well.  I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks".  For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.*

---Yep!  Did the boxers learn things from 52 Blocks, or did 52 Blocks learn it from the boxers?  Many elements of 52 Blocks have been part of boxing since way back!  On one of Lyte Burly's DVDs there is a lengthy section where he and one of his teachers go through old footage of professional boxing and point out various of the 52 "Blocks".  The clear implication is that 52 Blocks guys that admired the various black boxers in history took their "signature" techniques and made them part of their own fighting method.  Archie Moore is one example from which "Rob the Bank" and "Cross Arm" was taken.  The "Philly Shell" is a cover used by many boxers thru history, including Mayweather.  And of course "Close Door" is just a standard boxing "high cover."


----------



## Flying Crane (Mar 30, 2018)

punisher73 said:


> From the research I have done, there seems to be two main "camps" as to the history of 52 Blocks.  When it first started to be talked about in the 90's the main person (Newsome) gave the history that 52 Blocks existed since the days of slavery and was taught in secrecy among slaves and then passed on through the years to the streets of New York etc. and no one ever knew about it.  He was a Capoeira teacher and the history sounds a lot like that history of hiding the martial art in dance form.  As more people talked about it, I believe the 2nd history that I heard.  That it was based on street boxing and then with the influx of martial arts in the 60's/70's elements of kung fu etc. were added to the boxing and it became its own thing, which we now call "52 blocks".  Like other arts with the same name and roots, there are versions of it that have come about due to personal interpretation.
> 
> I also think that there are some guys out there who are just trying to make money off of the name and mystique of it as well.  I can think of some pro boxers and MMA fighters who have tried to claim or others claimed that a certain boxing move was "52 blocks".  For example, Mike Tyson, Floyd Mayweather, and Rashaad Evans.


Just a side note:  it is my personal opinion that capoeira was never hidden as a dance.  

African cultures often included elements of dance, music, and playfulness mixed in with work, as a way of making the labor go more quickly and easily.  I believe this was also true with the African combative methods that were mixed with indigenous and European influences in Brazil, and became capoeira.  Honestly, anyone seeing capoeira would be hard-pressed to mistake it for anything but the combative method that it is. And the white slave-owners and law enforcement were certainly well aware of capoeira and would not have been fooled by an attempt to hide it as a dance. They knew what it was, they knew what was going on.


----------



## macher (Apr 7, 2018)

Nobody Important said:


> Hi Keith,
> 
> Admittedly I know very little of 52 Blocks, but so far, what you have shown is absolutely no different shape wise, technique wise or use wise than the Wing Chun I studied. Perhaps the Wing Chun I studied is a little different than others, but those covers can easily be found in the San Sik and forms, so I doubt it is all that different from other Wing Chun branches in that respect. What sets 52 Blocks apart from what appears to be a Wing Chun/Boxing hybrid? So far as I can tell it's about weathering a storm but avoiding the clinch. Perhaps I'm way off base here but I'm not seeing much to differentiate it from Wing Chun as I know it. Can you give a little more insight?



I think the main difference is actual application and modifying of Wing Chun. I was taught a very similar way with Bagua years ago. Most CMA schools I’ve visited don’t teach real life applications only form. And most of it any don’t spar. KPM is showing actual real application.


----------



## Nobody Important (Apr 7, 2018)

macher said:


> I think the main difference is actual application and modifying of Wing Chun. I was taught a very similar way with Bagua years ago. Most CMA schools I’ve visited don’t teach real life applications only form. And most of it any don’t spar. KPM is showing actual real application.


I agree, I've seen a lot of schools that just don't teach in a manner conducive to real application. Lack of conceptual knowledge of movement, what it represents and how it can be applied. For whatever reasons, it isn't done and I've seen others that are so adherent to their dogmatic views that they won't allow for deviation or interpretation of technique. Oh well I guess, I'll just keep doing my own thing, it's served me well thus far.


----------

