# Pole form low horse discussion



## wckf92 (Aug 13, 2018)

Just a quick image search on the web reveals that different WC'ers use different foot alignment with regard to the low horse in the pole form. So, figured I'd see if we could get a discussion going about the pro's / con's.
Q1: does your lineage/WC have this low horse in your pole form?
Q2: if so, are your feet parallel? Or turned slightly outwards?
Q3: do you feel one has any advantages/disadvantages over the other?

Discussion welcome!


----------



## geezer (Aug 13, 2018)

My lineage teaches the parallel foot  position exactly as shown in the last picture above ^^^^ of Sifu Alex Richter. I however am duck footed and have bone fusions in my ankles, so I physically _cannot _assume that position and instead do the horse with my feet splayed outward. Honestly, it's just as functional and a lot easier on the knees.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Q2: if so, are your feet parallel? Or turned slightly outwards?


It doesn't matter which MA system that you may train, the horse stance always have feet parallel with 50-50 weight distribution.

You can turn your front foot outward with 40% weight on it. That's called 4-6 stance (no longer horse stance). But your back foot angle should not change.

Both in horse stance and 4-6 stance, to have your back foot turning outward is always wrong.

Also. when you apply hip throw with either outward horse stance, or inward horse stance, you may hurt your knee joint. Horse stance is the only stance that there is only one correct angle and there is only one correct width.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2018)

When you have outward horse stance, if your opponent pushes on your

- chest, you will fall backward without much resistance.
- back, you will fall forward and hurt your knees.


----------



## jobo (Aug 13, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When you have outward horse stance, if your opponent pushes on your
> 
> - chest, you will fall backward without much resistance.
> - back, you will fall forward and hurt your knees.


That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,


Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...


----------



## jobo (Aug 13, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...


But that's not a stance, it's a movement, dropping your weight is fine, standing there like a lemon, is not


----------



## KPM (Aug 13, 2018)

As in 6 out of 7 of the examples you provided in the OP, I was taught in Tang Yik Weng Chun pole to assume a natural and comfortable position...which is allowing the feet to turn a bit outward.  Since when using the pole the horse stance is actually a side stance and not a frontal stance, having the feet turned a bit outward allows you to move smoothly between the horse stance position and the cat stance position....in other words, moving from the ready or guard position (with a cat stance) smoothly and quickly into the thrust (with a horse stance).  Trying to stand with the feet parallel slows this down and does not allow a good transfer of power into the thrust.   Just try it and you should feel a difference.   Likewise, the rear foot is also turned a bit outward in the horse stance because it is also turned outward in the cat stance.  If you try to keep the rear foot parallel in the cat stance, then it is more difficult to drop your weight back on the rear leg into a nice deep position.  Instead, you will end up standing more upright and won't have the stance low enough to rest the pole comfortably across your lead thigh.  I see a number of errors in most of those pictures in the OP....from a Tang Yik Weng Chun perspective.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 13, 2018)

Horse stance training (the static stance) is for conditioning. Using footwork and using the stance in a snapshot of time is not the same as holding the stance.


----------



## geezer (Aug 13, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> Without horse stance, there will be no hip throw, shoulder throw, embracing throw, ...



John, I find your comment confusing. You say without a horse-stance with the feet held parallel to each other, you can't perform any of the kinds of throws you listed? Odd, because I know a number of wrestlers who are quite proficient at throws and none of them trained a TCMA horse stance!

Secondly, this thread is about using the horse with the WC long pole. How would holding my feet parallel in the classic TCMA position make me more proficient at _pole work?_ Not that it matters much to me since physiologically I am not able to assume that stance. Incidentally. when I used to ride horses on my grandfather's ranch a a kid, I had the same problem. "Papa" used to tease me saying that my feet stuck out like Charlie Chaplin.


----------



## geezer (Aug 13, 2018)

jobo said:


> That's so no matter where you put your feet , horse stance is just a bad position to be in if someone is going to push you, or kick Or punch you for that matter, it is however useful if you go to a party and there are no chairs left,



...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 14, 2018)

jobo said:


> know a number of wrestlers who are quite proficient at throws and none of them trained a TCMA horse stance! ... How would holding my feet parallel in the classic TCMA position make me more proficient at _pole work?_


Non Chinese wrestlers may not train horse stance. But they still understand the "feel parallel" principle.

In horse stance, when your feet are parallel, you will have the best balance. If you move your feet outward (or inward), the more that you move, the weaker balance that you will have. When your feet are in 180 degree (left foot point west and right foot point east, or left foot point east and right foot point west), you will have the weakest balance. This is just simple physics. It has nothing to do with MA style.

When your opponent's pole hits on your pole, you will need strong rooting to resist the force from his pole.

No matter which stance that you may use, if your feet is on east-west direction, your south-north direction balance will be weak. If your feet are parallel, it can give you the strongest rooting on your south-north direction.


----------



## Kung Fu Wang (Aug 14, 2018)

The same logic also apply on the width of the horse stance. When that width is your shoulder width plus 2 fists width, you will have the best balance, if you move your feet closer (or apart), your balance will get weaker.

So by physics, there is only one correct horse stance (both width and feet direction).


----------



## KPM (Aug 14, 2018)

geezer said:


> ...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.



And the middle east!  They even have porta-johns that are of the "straddle the hole" variety!  With the places for your feet clearly marked out!


----------



## KPM (Aug 14, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> When your opponent's pole hits on your pole, you will need strong rooting to resist the force from his pole.



Part of the stance training in Tang Yik pole is to stand in the horse stance with the pole in the full thrust or "Cheung" position and press hard against a solid object with the tip of the pole.  This trains balance and rooting.   Likewise you stand in the cat stance with the pole in the thrust position of "Tik" and do the same.  I have never felt like having the feet turned a bit outward was a problem with balance or rooting.


----------



## KPM (Aug 14, 2018)

Kung Fu Wang said:


> In horse stance, when your feet are parallel, you will have the best balance. If you move your feet outward (or inward), the more that you move, the weaker balance that you will have. When your feet are in 180 degree (left foot point west and right foot point east, or left foot point east and right foot point west), you will have the weakest balance. This is just simple physics. It has nothing to do with MA style.
> 
> .



That only applies when considering the horse stance to be a frontal position.   It is not a  frontal position when used with the pole.  It is a side position.  When sending and receiving force from the side, having the feet turned a bit outward provides better stability because it is harder to "roll over" the edge of your foot.


----------



## yak sao (Aug 14, 2018)

Never been to China or the Middle East but right here in the Good Ol USA if I ever have to use a port a pot you can be sure I'm doing the deep horse stance.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 14, 2018)

geezer said:


> ...or to a country where they have those straddle-the-hole toilets! I've heard those are common in parts of China.


 
Have used these in Asia, in the Ukraine, the Middle East, the Philippines. 
This is a nice modern private stall with a hose and a bar to hold onto. 

 
Many are just open like these.


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 14, 2018)

you guys are killing me!!!!


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

Anyone who says traditional Kung Fu doesn't work in real life has never had to hold a horse stance over a middle eastern hole in the floor toilet.


----------



## geezer (Aug 14, 2018)

KPM said:


> And the middle east!  They even have porta-johns that are of the "straddle the hole" variety!  *With the places for your feet clearly marked out!*



OK then! are the feet marked as parallel or splayed out?

...In one picture above they look splayed, but too narrow for a good horse. On the other hand if you are facing the hole to pee, you would be in a decent YGKYM!!!


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 14, 2018)

Ok. Remind me never to start a thread with you clowns... FFS!


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Ok. Remind me never to start a thread with you clowns... FFS!



So, what is your answer; parallel or angled out feet?


----------



## geezer (Aug 14, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Anyone who says traditional Kung Fu doesn't work in real life has never had to hold a horse stance over a middle eastern hole in the floor toilet.



...or as demonstrated by Sammo Hung in _The Prodigal Son_ (1:11:20 - 1:12:25):


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 14, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> So, what is your answer; parallel or angled out feet?



Well, honestly I don't know which topic you are discussing! hahaha. Are we talking about going number 1 or number 2 in some foreign land? Or the low pole horse?


----------



## geezer (Aug 14, 2018)

OK, sorry to lead this thread down the toilette. 

now getting back to the original question, I'd say we need to pay less attention to what some authority terms "correct" and more to what_ works_. An example would be arguing over something as trivial the precise thumb position in _wu sau_. I've had "grandmasters" from two different Yip Man lineages correct me in exactly _opposite ways_ on this, when in fact neither position would make any real difference in fighting.

As far as the foot position in the horse stance in the pole form, either gently splayed or parallel could work depending on the individual. Precision and awareness of detail is very important in any martial art, but obsession over non-functional trivia is counterproductive. Understanding the difference between detail and BS is even more important!


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

wckf92 said:


> Well, honestly I don't know which topic you are discussing! hahaha. Are we talking about going number 1 or number 2 in some foreign land? Or the low pole horse?



I can understand your confusion. I'm not as interested in your bathroom habits as this thread might suggest. Since you brought it up, I would be interested to know how you position your feet in the low pole horse stance.


----------



## wckf92 (Aug 14, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> I can understand your confusion. I'm not as interested in your bathroom habits as this thread might suggest. Since you brought it up, I would be interested to know how you position your feet in the low pole horse stance.



I was taught feet parallel. You?

(for the record though...I kind of like KPM's comment about "just place your feet naturally)...


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

I've had people senior to me argue each way and I've not personally dug in on one vs the other. The way you were taught holds weight with me though and I'm going to practice strictly parallel for a while as a result.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 14, 2018)

geezer said:


> ...I'd say we need to pay less attention to what some authority terms "correct" and more to what_ works_. An example would be arguing over something as trivial the precise thumb position in _wu sau_. I've had "grandmasters" from two different Yip Man lineages correct me in exactly _opposite ways_ on this, when in fact neither position would make any real difference in fighting.





geezer said:


> ...obsession over non-functional trivia is counterproductive. Understanding the difference between detail and BS is even more important!


Wish I could Like these 47 times.

When it comes to fighting - Efficient Effective Function over Aesthetics every time.


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

Danny T said:


> Wish I could Like these 47 times.
> 
> When it comes to fighting - Efficient Effective Function over Aesthetics every time.



Yes, definitely, but I was telling my students last night that forms are where we can focus on perfection, that is ONE of the purposes that they can serve. 

Drills, sparring, "play", and certainly fighting are not the places to worry about micro-precision of angles.


----------



## Danny T (Aug 14, 2018)

ShortBridge said:


> Yes, definitely, but I was telling my students last night that forms are where we can focus on perfection, that is ONE of the purposes that they can serve.
> 
> Drills, sparring, "play", and certainly fighting are not the places to worry about micro-precision of angles.


Yeah...I understand the premise but is there really a precision as to a particular angle on anything in WC? I opine, No. Everything is an approximation. I believe understanding what the form intends to inform us of and being able to function within the movements is structures far more important than working to a precise angle.
As in geezer's example it more about understanding where the elbow is to be placed, the relationship of the ulna and radial bones & their alignments vs where or how the thumb is to be positioned. Well other than having jammed, broken off, or poking yourself in one of eyes.
My understanding of form...it is a catalog of sorts, unwritten to show the major aspects of the mechanics of the system or the cliff notes to jog the practitioner's memory of much more.


----------



## ShortBridge (Aug 14, 2018)

I agree with everything you wrote, but assuming that micro differences in angles are not practically important, I believe that developing the ability to do it exactly the way that you intend to IS important. I was working with two guys last night on the Mook Jong and pointed out that their arms are essentially the same length as one another, but their waists were 4" different in height, meaning one had significantly longer legs than the other. 

That means, that to position themselves optimally on each section of that form they will be in different places, so we'll all work through and find our sweet spot. It's not about being in the "correct" spot for authentic Wing Chun, it's about knowing your own body and having command of it to position yourself appropriately. Unscripted, you can't be calculating angles, you have to focus on the macro and find a way to win. In a form, like the Mook Jong, I want them to strive for perfect position, perfect structure, perfect expression. 

But, that's just me. I do agree with what you wrote above. They are not contradictory ideas.


----------

