# becoming disillusioned with kenpo...



## twinkletoes (May 26, 2003)

I've been doing Kenpo Karate since age 8 (15 years ago).  I am a 3rd degree black belt at a great (and reputable) school.  I also have rank in Modern Arnis, and teach some other styles (including BJJ).  I am quickly losing my love of Kenpo.  Has anyone else gone through this?

My school has sparring, and our instructor used to box (so he's all about gloving up and seeing what works), but I just can't bring myself to teach katas and prearranged, theoretical techniques any more.  My heart isn't in it.  After all this BJJ, I want resisting partners and alive training (my BJJ instructor is Roy Harris, and the more I talk with him about JKD, the more I see myself going in that direction).  

If you read Parker's works, he speaks almost the same language as Bruce Lee:  don't get locked into fixed training, improvise, spar, there is no truth except contact, etc.  Doesn't it seem like Kenpo is getting away from that, with all of our non-contact or compliant partner techniques and lots of kata?  

Has anyone else felt this way?  

~Chris


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## clapping_tiger (May 26, 2003)

I have not been training for 15 years, so I don't know first hand about your situation. But there must be some reason you have stuck with Kenpo for 15 years, right? Maybe you just don't like teaching, or teaching beginning students. Perhaps you need to focus on your training for a short time and mix it up with some other Black Belts and just stop going through the motions for a while. I know that there are some people out there who just don't want to get hurt, and they have just as much of a right to train as someone who is looking for a little bit more. Keeping these paying (but don't want the contact) students in the school is good for business, it sometimes makes the classes (whether you are teaching it or taking it) a little soft for the more serious student. You just need to find someone with the same mindset as you, go out on a mat, and explore all your skills in a fighting scenario. Be it Kenpo, BJJ, or whatever. 15 years of experience is not something you just want to throw away. There has to be something you can do to rekindle that spark.

I don't know if this reply helps out, but I  really hope someone with more experience replies to this and can give you some "I've been there" advise.


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## Ender (May 26, 2003)

Well I have stuck with Kenpo for about 11 years now. but in a sense you are correct. alot is variations of the same. I started in lima lama as a kid, later went to shoto khan. also studied some Arnis and some knife fighting techniques from other styles. Even did a bit of Jeet Kun do. ..but what i find is that i added them to my kenpo arsenal. so in essence I was just expanding my knowledge. Kenpo is not the end all of the martial arts, but it is the one I like best and fits me better. Maybe you should try out some different things, just to see. just a thought.


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## Kirk (May 26, 2003)

Kata??  What kenpo guy calls them "kata"?  Me senseth a troll.


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## Jill666 (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Kata??  What kenpo guy calls them "kata"?  Me senseth a troll. *



Well I have been known to say kata- :rofl: 

Itchy trigger finger there, Kirk?


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## Kirk (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Jill666 _
> *Well I have been known to say kata- :rofl:
> 
> Itchy trigger finger there, Kirk?  *



Do you do kenpo or kempo?


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## KenpoDragon (May 26, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Kirk _
> *Do you do kenpo or kempo? *


 I have studied Kenpo, American Kenpo, but I call forms kata sometimes, it just depends on who I'm talking to. Forms are katas, katas are forms. Same thing, the only difference is Japanese or English, one is Japanese, the other is English.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## Michael Billings (May 26, 2003)

But then I use the standard naming convention after saying "lets do Kata tonight, starting with Short Form One."

Something about "old dogs", "new tricks" and braincells dying by the bucketload the older I get.

Oss!


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## KenpoDragon (May 26, 2003)

Mr.Twinkletoes,hehehe, sorry....Kenpo's techniques in my opinion are to set a base for its practitioners. Not a total and complete set response for every attack, but more the ability to be spontaneous, and formulate your own movements to adapt to the particular situation. It gives us a possible solution, not a must solution. At your level I can understand your desire to seek out something new, but that doesn't mean that you have to disregard all of your previous training. Just my thoughts though, to each his own.

:asian: KenpoDragon


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## redfang (May 26, 2003)

The nature of kenpo makes it difficult to practice many techniques with any degree of force against resisting partners.  Since kenpo likes to target vital targets for quick disabling it doesn't work unless the partner is covered in protective gear.  I personally don't think sparring (tournament style) is very realistic or satisfying either. It reminds me of being a kid and slap boxing with my friends (I could of got you there! No way, I could of got you!) I do think that there is value in the techniques and the sparring, as well as kata (yes, we call the forms kata in our school).  Some people really enjoy the artistry of kata (it is a martial 'art') and find that the forms benefit their footwork.  Many beginners build confidence and a firm base through mastery of techniques.  
  Our school also teaches shootfighting and our sparring is more in the NHB format because of this.  I find this more satisfying, more realistic than point sparring.  When this isn't enough, I study other arts that give me things kenpo can't.  Right now for me it's tai chi. For you it sounds like Jeet Kun Do might be a nice fit.
     Good journeying!


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## Old Guy (May 26, 2003)

Whenever I throw a party I jokingly tell people "Whatever you would like to see at the party, bring it.  That way if you don't have a good time, it's your fault."  If you are no longer finding what you like in Kenpo, try bringing something else to it.  Remember, it is your Kenpo.

Full salute.  Full respect.
Rick


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## rmcrobertson (May 27, 2003)

"Things kenpo can't?" 

Oy. The basic point is that--it's often noted--kenpo is not a martial art style. It's a decoding of martial arts styles, a reading of their basic means of operation--no offense, but the argument is that kenpo stands in regard to hitrerto existing martial arts as marxism (settle down--used the small "m") stands in regard to hitherto existing philosophies. Which is to say that kenpo--and the claim is inherent in Mr. Parker's whole work, for all his flaws--is the laid-bare truth about what they were up to all along. Just as science is the truth about alchemy.

"The fault, dear Brutus lies not in our stars, but in ourselves/That we be slaves..."

Sorry--I'm feeling gnomic this weekend.

Thanks,
Robert


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## Guiseppe Betri (May 27, 2003)

Hey Kirk, I call forms katas and I'm a Kenpo guy.  Don't you hold a purple or blue belt?  Maybe you could grace me with some of your "pearls" of wisdom and enlighten me as to what you meant by that earlier question.


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## RCastillo (May 27, 2003)

I agree with just about all here, step back, take a good look, reassess the situation, take a break if need be. I liked it best what "Old Guy" said, "It's your Kenpo!" A wakeup call if I ever heard one! Thanks Old Guy!

BTW, I also say Kata, Pattern, or Form.:asian:


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## webpage20022003 (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> * but I just can't bring myself to teach katas and prearranged, theoretical techniques any more.  My heart isn't in it.
> 
> *



if you don't want to teach things like that, don't teach.



> *
> 
> After all this BJJ, I want resisting partners and alive training
> 
> ~Chris *



if you want a real ALIVE training, why don't you go to some bad neighborhood or bar and pick up some fights there ?

trust me, you will have more fun than anything you ever encounter.

if you are lucky, you may find somebody like you in your school.

If i were you, i will go to the bar and pick up a fight with a BIG and BAD guy with a lot of tatoos and have a COLD beer afterward in another bar to celerate 1 more accomplishment if you know what i'm saying. 

if having many accomplishment with your KENPO, you will never wonder why it is NUMBER 1 because it is so AWESOME


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## satans.barber (May 27, 2003)

I've gone through that a little bit from time to time, but I think people should just use whatever art they're in as a base for creating their own fighting style - kempo just makes a better base than some other arts IMHO, because of the variety taught. I've always liked the JKD concept, and I do tend to lean towards that a bit, even being in a kenpo school (there's not a lot of difference between the two really if you start to adapt I don't think...).

Two of my Larry Tatum tapes arrived last week, and I think they restored my faith a bit! It's easy to see that it can work really well when done properly, and just motivated me to train harder (also, watching Clyde get's his neat pony tail all mussed up was pretty funny :rofl: )

Ian.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *
> Two of my Larry Tatum tapes arrived last week, and I think they restored my faith a bit! It's easy to see that it can work really well when done properly, and just motivated me to train harder (also, watching Clyde get's his neat pony tail all mussed up was pretty funny :rofl: )
> 
> Ian. *



See, I told you it was worth the investment if for any other reason than to watch me get pounded LOL.    Watch the Locking Horns tech, it'll get you giggling for sure.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Kirk (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri _
> *Hey Kirk, I call forms katas and I'm a Kenpo guy.  Don't you hold a purple or blue belt?  Maybe you could grace me with some of your "pearls" of wisdom and enlighten me as to what you meant by that earlier question. *



Nice post 

It was my understanding that Mr Parker created an American art,
and didn't want them to be called Katas, and didn't want to be
called Sifu, or Sensei.  I've already been corrected on this, but
thanks for posting anyway.


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## tarabos (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *I want resisting partners and alive training *



forms can be "applied" in a sense. i often throw the attacks at students while they do the form so they get a better sense of what is happening, and it forces them a bit to actually commit to the movement they are going through. not particularly realistic, but it helps. i've found this to be a great way for students to learn to develope power and balance in short 1 especially, since they are just starting out with the system at that point.

admittedly, forms are not my favorite part of the cirriculum to teach, but i still like teaching them. there's so much in them. i do know what you are saying though and i think we have all been there.


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## twinkletoes (May 27, 2003)

Wow, I had no idea I'd spark such, uh, controversy.  No trolling here, my question is genuine.  Let me respond to a couple of questions/comments:

--Yes, it's American Kenpo, but we call them kata.  We also call the instructors Sifu.  The system I do came down through a Tracy Lineage, but it has a lot of the more signature Parker style elements to it.  The techniques etc. are mostly Tracy.

--I understand that the techniques, forms, etc. are supposed to be examples of optimal ways that a situation *could* be handled, and that reps of these will form habits, but there is such an.......obsession with them.  "Is this technique supposed to be have a middle knuckle fist or a two finger spear?"  For all that my fellow staff members say that they understand that it doesn't matter, they spend a LOT of time bickering over this stuff.  And I find it inconsequential.  I'd rather see if they can pull it off in sparring.  While that technique *might* work if you had proper timing, positioning, and attributes, repeating cooperative techniques or solo forms doesn't build that.  

--When I say 'alive' training, I don't necessarily mean sparring, but alive in a Matt Thornton sense (Resistance, Timing, and Footwork in an unchoreographed setting).  There can be tons of limitations that make it different from sparring.  I'd just rather train and teach this way.

--As for bringing it to my teaching, I'm doing what I can.  Rather than countless reps of blocks or punches from a horse stance or fighting stance (we don't use the neutral bow terminology at our school), I get them partnered and moving around and practicing it in unrehearsed ways.  But there is still a lot of pressure on me (from the other instructors, including my seniors) to emphasize the promotion requirements, and those are almost entirely the techniques and katas.  

--When I was in college I competed in ballroom dancing.  These days, if I wanted to do something aesthetic, I'd put on music, grab a partner, and go dance.  But if I want to train martial arts, I don't want to spend all my time doing things that *look* cool but aren't aimed at effectiveness.  I'm all for artistic displays, but not when I'm trying to build fighting ability.

cont.

*edited for spelling


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## twinkletoes (May 27, 2003)

2 last ones:

--While I'm thinking of Matt Thornton, let's group Kenpo's methods according to his "3 I's" method.  

Introduction:  This is where a move is introduced, and the student practices it for proper form.  This includes hitting focus pads or heavy bags.  This develops correct technique, and builds attributes like power, speed, follow-through, and accuracy.

Isolation:  This is where the move is developed through [alive] drilling, so that attributes of timing, distancing, and a sense of appropriateness is developed.  For example, maybe one partner needs to work his side kick:  he can't seem to get it to work in sparring.  So his partner puts some gloves on and throws only basic attacks, like backfist-reverse punch (jab-cross) or other kicks, and his parner uses only the side kick, so he learns when to use it.  Slowly they increase tempo or add things that the trainer can do until the student feels comfortable using his side kick in an alive situation.

Integration:  Spar, and employ the skill while sparring.

If we look at basic moves from Kenpo, they are obviously trained in the Intro stage, and probably the isolation and the integration stages.  HOWEVER pre-scripted techniques and katas fall ONLY into the introduction stage.  They can't be isolated in alive training because they are not alive patterns!  And I can tell you right now that I personally cannot use my techniques or katas "move-for-move" in sparring.  

If we are aiming to teach spontanaeity and improvisation, why don't we train it?

--Lastly, the reason I am on here bellyaching about it is really this:  The school where I teach is not my school, and I don't make pretenses that it is.  I'm probably about 5th in the chain of command out of about a dozen active instructors, and I've been a black belt for almost 7 years (teaching assistant for years before that).  I don't have any desire to change this school:  it's not my school, and that's not my place.  The school is a wonderful school and they do great things for their students, but it's the curriculum that I have a problem with.  It's the product I disagree with, not the service.  

However, I am planning on opening my own school in the next couple of years, and it was sort of shocking to me when I realized I didn't want to teach Kenpo (I teach other styles, including BJJ and Modern Arnis).  I thought for awhile about ways to "trim" the curriculum or tailor it towards alive drilling and improvisation, but every time I go to flesh it out, in the end it looks like this: 

Learn and develop basic strikes, takedowns, etc.
Develop skill in using them in an alive setting.
Gather experiences in different ranges.
Integrate the skills of all of these alive methods.
Eliminate kata and other prearranged, cooperative movement sets.  

This comes out sounding like a JKD curriculum (and frankly, it is).  That brings around my other initial question--doesn't Kenpo theory eventually imply JKD?

(We (kenpoka) want improvisation and spontaneous reaction-->so we train that way-->sparring and alive drilling-->experience in a variety of unscripted environments-->JKD)

<Whew>  Keep the responses coming--I enjoy hearing from you all.  

~Chris


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Twinkletoes:

I too am a long-time Kenpoist.  I started in 1973.  I have a 3rd Black in an independent offshoot of Tracy's Kenpo.

I began to feel frustrated with Kenpo about 10 years ago.  Somehow, our art has become too ritualized.  Kata practice has lost its meaning for me.  I took time off.  I searched for a better way.  I briefly tried American Kenpo:  same feeling.  

Recently, I took the plunge into Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.  I feel EXACTLY the same as you do.  BJJ is da-bomb.  The no-nonsense training and ranking is a real eye-opener.  No dogma, no hype, just train hard and train to win.  Kenpoists who have never seen or experience Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu just don't know what you and I are talking about.

I hope that other Kenpoists can open their minds and see that our Kenpo is getting a little static and that there are other arts and most especially other training methods.  Furthermore, some of these styles are evolving and improving rapidly while Kenpo is working hard to preserve the past.

Twinkletoes:  Thank you for raising this important topic.


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## twinkletoes (May 27, 2003)

Old Fat Kenpoka - 

Thanks    I was starting to wonder if I was the only one who had experienced this.  I love BJJ:  train hard with partners who fight back.  No theory, just results.

~Chris

PS:  When I started renting space at the kenpo studio to teach BJJ, most of the other black belts were cool about it.  A couple apparently made a few snide comments to some students about how ineffective that "grappling stuff" is.  I invited all the black belts to one of my sunday classes to roll with my students.  We did headlock escapes from the ground, and worked on combining them so that they could be used together (and more efficiently).  After about the 3rd technique one of them called me over and said "This technique doesn't work."  I said "Sure it does.  Let me see you do it."  She sorta did it halfway and then announced (muffled by her partner's arm) "See, it doesn't work."  I got down and had her put me in the headlock and hold on tightly.  I did the escape a few times.  I stood up and she looked at me and we didn't say anything for a minute.  After that she finally said "I don't think it works."  I had to walk away before I started laughing.    I guess some people CAN argue with real results.


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## Guiseppe Betri (May 27, 2003)

"if you want a real ALIVE training, why don't you go to some bad neighborhood or bar and pick up some fights there ?"


"If i were you, i will go to the bar and pick up a fight with a BIG and BAD guy with a lot of tatoos and have a COLD beer afterward in another bar to celerate 1 more accomplishment if you know what i'm saying." 


webpage2002203-

What kind of advice are you giving the orginator of this thread?  What would your instructor say if he/she saw what you had written above?  Thats terrible advice.  You honestly think that picking a fight is an accomplishment.  Anyone can do that.  The Martial Arts should be used to defend one's self.  Further, tattoos don't make you bad.  If your still stuck at that point, stay in the shallow end, and certainly don't give anymore advice.  You can get real-live training in the studio/dojo/garage/etc.  Twinkletoes doesn't need to pick a fight, he needs some good workout partners.  What if he got his throat slit taking your advice by picking a fight in a bar?  Don't think it doesn't happen.


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## rmcrobertson (May 27, 2003)

Not this argument AGAIN.

Look, if you want to study and learn to teach Brazilian jiu-jitsu or anything else, cool. Good for you. Just leave off blaming everything on kenpo's "lacks," kenpo's "weaknesses," etc. etc. etc. With a good instructor, that's simply not true. 

I realize this won't matter a bit to ya. But every single thing you've mentioned about what kenpo training should be, should include, I've had thrown at me. No exceptions.

I am not even going to start with trying to explain what forms teach. I don't think you'd be listening, except for those on this thread who know already. Let's just say that there are reasons for forms.

What you might consider is the fantasy of invulnerability that lies behind the notion that if I just find the right art, throw out all the "extra," everything will be perfect...I'll become the perfect weapon!

Hey, wait a minute...


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Yes.  This argument AGAIN.

50 years ago, Karate people used to bang their fingers into buckets of rocks, pound their knuckles on Makiwara pads.  Now, we know that these training methods are not the MOST effective.  Why can't people argue that Kata is not the MOST effective training method for fighting?

Kenpoists too often gain a sense of invulnerability from their Kata and technique training.  Every Kenpo Black Belt needs to get tackled and submitted by a BJJ White Belt just once so they know that they are not invulnerable.

Let's leave our egos at the door, open our minds, and accept that other styles and training methods are valid.  Let's also accept that other arts are evolving and improving and that we must evolve and improve or become relegated to the history books.


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## Michael Billings (May 27, 2003)

I have a BJJ instructor in my school and we have "played".  Interesting, instructive, but limited, unless you just like to wrestle.  It is what it is.  Think weapons, multiple opponents & the real world.  

It is great for my law enforcement friends, but we also teach them some JKD & boxing.

RE: JKD - you get to the same place by a different route.  In Kenpo you learn a vast multitude of techniques and "Motion" ... in years to come it all BLENDS (another catchword) , into the flow.  In JKD you learn to flow first, and from that come your techniques.  

I think it all depends on your preferred learning style.  Do you like a group class that is semi-structured (Kenpo) or do you prefer the partner training which is more free-form of JKD?  Remember the roots and the Ed Parker / Bruce Lee connection.  It is there, real, and remembered by men like Danny Inosanto and Ray Parra, as well as the Kenpo Seniors of the era.

My Opinion Only,
Oss!!


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Mr. Billings.  Thank you.  BJJ is what it is.  Smart BJJ guys know that a good striker can hurt them and that nobody is invulnerable.  Smart Kenpo people know that they are not invulnerable supermen.  I hope that all Kenpo people can know what the smart ones know.


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## Bardiche (May 27, 2003)

I have also experienced the "disillusionment" that can be experienced by long time practioners of kenpo.  I started at a very young age and continued training hard for many years before moving away from a studio structure (not by choice).  There has always been a stigma attached to anyone who looks or trains in something other than kenpo and who tries to point out "weaknesses or gaps" in kenpo.  Unfortunately, I feel that many of the people who profess this point of view are the same ones who worry about every strike and finger placement, swear that a technique can only be done ONE way, and that technique purity is developed in technique lines. These people are missing part of the kenpo picture.  The theories and technical skills are great; but, ultimately, it's the application of knowledge that makes the final statement of effectiveness.

This is not to put down the correctness of kenpo but to show that  some people will gravitate (remember tailoring?) to more practical experience or evaluations than those who prefer theory.  If you have reached a stage that you are craving a different approach to the same material, then GO FOR IT.    I do not feel that you have abandoned kenpo if you continue to apply the theories and principles but choose to look at it from a different prospective.  Innovation and learning only comes from asking questions and then exploring the answers.  My suggestion is to gather a small group of people with a similar mindset and different styles and start exploring scenarios, ideas, etc.  As long as you apply the principles and knowledge then you are still doing kenpo.

My 2 cents


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## Michael Billings (May 27, 2003)

Kenpo guys who want to compete have few avenues.  Do we play tag at tournament ... yes it is fun, for a while, or do we go the full contact route?  Costly, physically, mentally, and emotionally ... and is it really Kenpo then.  I would argue "yes" by the way, in that the Principles, Concepts, and Theories of Motion always remain the same.  I have 3 Kenpo Black Belts at a boxing gym now.  They use the P,C, & T, but have found boxers just call them something else.

BJJ is a great adjunct Art.  Especially for you guys with bull necks who still have a flood of testosterone mixed with adrenaline, running through you.  You can complete and train and it is an endorphin rush every single time, due to the amount of energy expended (whether your face shows it or not!)

I like testing my Kenpo contact manipulation, levers, fulcrums, bracing angles, etc. against some of the BJJ guys, but I am too old to do this consistantly.  It plain takes a huge physical toll on backs, necks, fingers, ears, noses, elbows, shoulders ... well you get the idea.  It is fun at camps and I have actually been able to show the BJJ guys some things out of Kenpo camps I attended, that they never tried ... and gee, they worked.  

Don't discount that you can learn from anyone anywhere ... but it is up to you to find the "lessons", and they are not always what the person instructing you is trying to teach.  If nothing else, we learn what else is out there on the street.

I am still not disillusioned with Kenpo.  It is fresh and growing all the time.  It has ups and downs and it is my responsibility to keep it alive and growing.  That is how the Art progresses.  Everyone gets tired teaching the same old same old.  That is the challenge.  You can chose to explore another Art, or you can attempt to find the uniqueness of Kenpo and add to the body of ongoing work called Kenpo.

(I sound like an add for KenpoWorld - a new creation, see attached image)

Oss!


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## Michael Billings (May 27, 2003)

2nd try, I had spaces in the file name.


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## tarabos (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *2nd try, I had spaces in the file name. *



no luck again...one more strike and you're out!


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## roryneil (May 27, 2003)

I think you are being unfair to kenpo. Mr Parker designed a system by which you learn set techniques, sparring and freestyle, and when it all comes together you can move spontaneosly. Now that you have gone through that system you want to throw out what got you there as useless. You may be bored, but you are almost obligated in a way to pass that system on to someone like me who CANT move spontaneously to give me a chance to learn how to. (I'm not yelling at you, just saying that earing a BB is just as much about becoming a good fighter as it is about becoming a good teacher.):soapbox:


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## rmcrobertson (May 27, 2003)

Oh, fiddlesticks.

If you really think that the stuff of kenpo is silly and impractical, merely theoretical, what can I write to dissuade you.

You are basing your arguments, however, upon an idea of "practical," fighting. I'm interested in self defense, which is different. I'm also interested in the character-building aspect of the martial arts, and I feel sure you'll laugh at that.

But if you want to be practical, and you feel that tying somebody up on the ground while his buddies run up and...well, you know the argument.

I wonder what the real point is.


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## MartialArtsGuy (May 27, 2003)

So many labels. JKD, TKD, BJJ, EPAK, MT, TSD, ROSS, FIGHT, LSD and 123.

So many methods. KATA, DRILLS, SPARRING, POINT SPARRING, SENSATIVITY, CONCEPTUAL TECHNIQUES, LITERAL TECHNIQUES, ROLLING, PUNCHING A BRICK WALL and on and on and on.

Well, what I finally realized is that im learning to use myself as a tool that can be used to defend myself. In the process many characteristics about me get better. So I train, and I get results. I train some more and get more results. After years, I train myself using different methods, and stick to those methods that prepare me to defend myself better than previous methods. I constanly re-evaluate my performance so that I may judge my progress, and make determinations on which methods are most adequately preparing me.

There is no discrimination. Because my life could depend on this someday, I am interested in the methods that best prepare me. This is not about striking versus grappling. I make no such distinction and none should have ever been made. If you are serious about learning how to defend yourself you will consider the different situations you could find yourself in and prepare for them. There are other reasons to be involved in the martial arts, but I think it is safe to say that combat is at the top and should be considered before any others. Any ART that is supposed to provide a platform for one to develop MARTIAL skill should be concerend with effectiveness first. If not than it is not a martial art. This means we should constantly be evaluating what we do and improving based on varifiable fact from unbiased scientific analysis.  Thank you for your patience with my insanity. 


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


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## satans.barber (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *See, I told you it was worth the investment if for any other reason than to watch me get pounded LOL.    Watch the Locking Horns tech, it'll get you giggling for sure.
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



 The Orange Belt tapes haven't arrived yet (of the 8 I ordered, only 2 were in stock), but I'm looking forward to it! Master Tatum is an _excellent_ teacher I have to say! He does look like he punishes you guys on the tapes a bit! I think it would be nice to see the technique done once completely and at full speed at the end of each explanation though, it wouldn't have taken much time and would have been pretty cool to see!

With regards to this BJJ debate, I watched some Gracie Jiu-Jitsu instructional tapes, and I have to say, it didn't look that impressive to me. It seem to be a case of cover your face up, rush them, then dominate them on the ground. This 'rushing' phase would worry me, it seemed like a decent kenpoka could probably land 3 strikes in the time that they were moving in....maybe the tape was misleading though; the UFC results do speak for themselves!

Ian.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 27, 2003)

Don't knock it until you've tried it.  I was very skeptical about BJJ for about the first seven years since I heard about it.  Further research, watching some classes, and then taking a lesson were enough to convince me that it fills a great gap in my Kenpo training.  

I think all of us Kenpo people need to be a little more humble about our great art:  Kenpo is very comprehensive, but not perfect and not completely comprehensive.  I think we can learn much from Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Judo (yes Judo), submission wrestling (yes wrestling), Filipino Martial Arts, Muay Thai, Boxing, Krav Maga, and Jeet Kune Do.  All of these arts address one or more issue differently or even better than Kenpo.  We need to keep our minds open and admit that our Kenpo does not make us invulnerable.


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## twinkletoes (May 27, 2003)

I have a couple quick responses to certain things that have been said:

"If you really think that the stuff of kenpo is silly and impractical, merely theoretical, what can I write to dissuade you."  

and 

"You are basing your arguments, however, upon an idea of "practical," fighting. I'm interested in self defense, which is different. I'm also interested in the character-building aspect of the martial arts, and I feel sure you'll laugh at that."

Robert, I think you are pigeonholing my kenpo-problems intoa  larger argument that has come around before.  For starters, I never said that kenpo was silly or impractical.  What I said was that the common training methods (kata and techniques) were less effective and less efficient than alive training like JKD or the SBG guys.  I stand by that.  I think that those are less effective at building real-time improvisational response, which I feel is critical. 

Moreover, I'm very interested in character building and the like.  I have avoided every fight i can in the last 15 years of martial arts training.  In fact, I've never had to hit anyone to solve anything.  I understand that these things come first.  They must.  But I still think that Kenpo's training methods could be more effective.  

I think Kenpo is hard to define.  Is Kenpo itself silly?  I have no idea.  Perhaps Kenpo is a sum of its training methods, or its principles.  Perhaps it is something altogether else.  I don't know.  I have learned great habist and striking from Kenpo, over 15 years.  However, I can take beginners and consistently develop in them functional skills in much less time than it took me using "nontraditional" methodologies like alive drilling vs. kata.  Does that mean my teaching is evolving?  Maybe.  Should it?  I think so.  

Next:  

"There is no discrimination. Because my life could depend on this someday, I am interested in the methods that best prepare me. This is not about striking versus grappling. I make no such distinction and none should have ever been made."

Ben, I couldn't agree more.  This is not about the techniques applied, but about the methods in which they are trained.

Lastly:  

"With regards to this BJJ debate, I watched some Gracie Jiu-Jitsu instructional tapes, and I have to say, it didn't look that impressive to me. It seem to be a case of cover your face up, rush them, then dominate them on the ground. This 'rushing' phase would worry me, it seemed like a decent kenpoka could probably land 3 strikes in the time that they were moving in....maybe the tape was misleading though; the UFC results do speak for themselves!"

It isn't about BJJ vs. Kenpo, though if you want to see those results, get "Gracies in Action" 1 & 2.  Watch the crazy kenpo guy in part 2.  This is, however, about training methods, and the BJJ guys have trained in more modern ways and accomodate strikers in ways that many strikers do not reciprocate.  This is why NHB competition has favored pure grapplers over pure strikers.  But that is a WHOLE different sack of potatoes.   

~Chris


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> * The Orange Belt tapes haven't arrived yet (of the 8 I ordered, only 2 were in stock), but I'm looking forward to it! Master Tatum is an excellent teacher I have to say! He does look like he punishes you guys on the tapes a bit! I think it would be nice to see the technique done once completely and at full speed at the end of each explanation though, it wouldn't have taken much time and would have been pretty cool to see!
> 
> 
> Ian. *



On some of the Brown and Black Belt technique tapes he does that, more than a few times.    He started getting comfortable in front of the camera about Green and started really pumping.     You have to remember these are instructional tapes and not a demo, at least that's what he was aiming for.    They act as an artificial memory when you need that extra boost before class or before a test.   He was not looking to sell what he could do, more what he could do for the viewer.    I'm on the recieving end so I know what he can do LOL.    Larry will be in England in the next few months so keep an eye out.    If you're near London around June 6th and 7th you'll have to come over to Kevin Mills (BKKU)studio, I'll be vacationing (on holiday) for a few days and didn't want to miss Kevin so you can see me there.   Email me for details

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Michael Billings (May 28, 2003)

If this one does not work, I'm OUT>


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## Michael Billings (May 28, 2003)

Glad I did not get strike #3


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## D.Cobb (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri _
> *"if you want a real ALIVE training, why don't you go to some bad neighborhood or bar and pick up some fights there ?"
> 
> 
> ...




I was going to reply to webpage2002203's post, but I think you have covered it all. 
Oh and what about if it does work out and he kicks said bikers butt, and maybe kills or injures him. How is he supposed to defend that in court?

--Dave


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## D.Cobb (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka _
> *Yes.  This argument AGAIN.
> 
> 50 years ago, Karate people used to bang their fingers into buckets of rocks, pound their knuckles on Makiwara pads.  Now, we know that these training methods are not the MOST effective.  Why can't people argue that Kata is not the MOST effective training method for fighting?
> ...



Kata was never meant to be a training tool for fighting!
Kata is simply an encycleopedia of your system. All your locks holds, punches, blocks, kicks , blah blah blah are in the katas.

Drills, based on specific parts of the katas will teach you the correct timing and distancing for specific reactions to specific attacks.
Sparring teaches you how to spar, period!
Drills practised in High Adrenal Stress situations will teach you how to fight.
If you are not sure of a specific move in a drill, go and do kata. Then get with a partner who is prepared to make you work hard and do drills.

Then get padded up and attempt to bash the absolute daylights out of each other. Then when you are finished sit down with each other and analyse each others moves.

--Dave

:asian:


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## satans.barber (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by ProfessorKenpo _
> *On some of the Brown and Black Belt technique tapes he does that, more than a few times.    He started getting comfortable in front of the camera about Green and started really pumping.     You have to remember these are instructional tapes and not a demo, at least that's what he was aiming for.    They act as an artificial memory when you need that extra boost before class or before a test.   He was not looking to sell what he could do, more what he could do for the viewer.    I'm on the recieving end so I know what he can do LOL.    Larry will be in England in the next few months so keep an eye out.    If you're near London around June 6th and 7th you'll have to come over to Kevin Mills (BKKU)studio, I'll be vacationing (on holiday) for a few days and didn't want to miss Kevin so you can see me there.   Email me for details
> 
> Have a great Kenpo day
> ...



Ah, the Summer Camp? I noticed your name was down as the guest instructor! I actually had a letter from Jenny Mills inviting me to it, but I don't know if I can make it. It's a long way away from where I live unfortunately, but I also don't know if I can get the time off work 

I've got 3 exams the week before as well (next week) so I'm going to be pretty knackered by the weekend!

Ian.


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## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri _
> 
> What kind of advice are you giving the orginator of this thread?  What would your instructor say if he/she saw what you had written above?  Thats terrible advice.  You honestly think that picking a fight is an accomplishment.  Anyone can do that.  The Martial Arts should be used to defend one's self.  Further, tattoos don't make you bad.  If your still stuck at that point, stay in the shallow end, and certainly don't give anymore advice.  You can get real-live training in the studio/dojo/garage/etc.  Twinkletoes doesn't need to pick a fight, he needs some good workout partners.  What if he got his throat slit taking your advice by picking a fight in a bar?  Don't think it doesn't happen.



let me ask you this question.
 How can he have some good workout partners? 
what kind of things should he do with his partner that constitutes to his wish "resisting" in do jo?

since he wants some ALIVE and RESISTING with his partner, one or both of them will get hurt in some point. Why would somebody else want to do that?
He said he wants some resisting and ALIVE, didn't he?

his throat got slitted on the street? his martial art skill is no good. Period.

everybody is mature and intelligence enough to know what to do. I don't have to run around and give advise to anybody here.

you see a person shoot another in the TV, you will do the same thing as that person did ? Come on................what you said is simply the most ridiculous item of the day as Bill O'reilly puts it in his show note


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## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by D.Cobb _
> *
> 
> Oh and what about if it does work out and he kicks said bikers butt, and maybe kills or injures him. How is he supposed to defend that in court?
> ...



everybody entitles to their own opinion. You can't tell me what to think. Period

you are really    why?

in the reality and in self-denfse, you can name of thousand if not million things that willl happen after doing certain things. If you keep doing that, you better stay home or in bunker. Oh by the way, you hope that bunker buster doesn't drop on top of your place .

   

by the way, did anybody notice my question mark ?? Why don't you........?????


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## twinkletoes (May 28, 2003)

webpage20022003,

I think you misunderstand the meaning here of "alive" and "resisting."  

ALIVE training means that you train in a way that is not strictly pre-choreographed, in which your partner provides realistic energy (not the old static stiff punch and stand-still), in which there is an inherent use of timing and a need for footwork (distancing).  

Here are some examples off the top of my head:

One partner needs to work his side kick--it isn't effective in sparring.  His trainer/partner gloves up and throws (starting out slowly) some basic punches, say jab & cross, mixed with a couple basic kicks.  The first partner works on finding appropriate times to use his side kick.  As he gets better at it, the trainer adds other moves and steps the pace up.

Another one:  Partner A learns a leg sweep, hip throw, punch, armbar, or anything.  Fill in as drill above.

More:  Pummelling drills from wrestling

Or:  ANY live BJJ drills (works similarly:  Partner A tries to get move, B defends or escapes, etc. etc.).

Or:  Most Boxing drills

Alive drills will help you develop spontanaeity, improvisation, and appropriateness WITHOUT much risk of injury.  The risk of injury is not even as high as it is in sparring.  

This is worlds apart from what you are suggesting (and also safer and legal).  

Best,

~Chris


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## XtremeJ_AKKI (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by webpage20022003 _
> *everybody entitles to their own opinion. You can't tell me what to think. Period*



 I don't see where he or anyone else was telling you what to think. Climb down from that horse and calm down a bit, it'll be alright.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Ah, the Summer Camp? I noticed your name was down as the guest instructor! I actually had a letter from Jenny Mills inviting me to it, but I don't know if I can make it. It's a long way away from where I live unfortunately, but I also don't know if I can get the time off work
> 
> I've got 3 exams the week before as well (next week) so I'm going to be pretty knackered by the weekend!
> ...



OK, exactly how far away LOL?   We do drive extensively here in the U.S. as you've seen last year when you were here and did a  bit of driving on our motorways.    Can't be that far can it, I'm coming about 5000 miles or so.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## Guiseppe Betri (May 28, 2003)

webpage20022003-


Why do you ask "How can he have some good workout partners?"  "Good" workout partners in my experience, are developed through relationships outside of the training forum.  The same base of that relationship outside the kwoon, must be carried into the training hall.  Both parties must be of the understanding that the intent is not to hurt or injure, but to train hard, learn and become better martial artists.  It is not true that one or both will become injured.  I know many that train this way.  Bumps, bruises, dents, of course.  Those however, are necessary.  Anyone can have "good" workout partners.      

"his throat got slitted on the street? his martial art skill is no good. Period."

In an incident such as this one, there can be a large number of variables that come into play.  One's martial art's skill is only one of them.  The possible situations and scenarios that lead up to one getting their throat slit are infinite.  


"I don't have to run around and give advise to anybody here." 

You're absolutely right, you probably shoudn't, because the advice you did give was worthless.  As far as your remark about the bunker buster, you completely lost me there.  No idea what you're talking about.  Keep your advice to yourself.  Go where the fight is not.  That's part of the yellow belt curriculum.


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## ProfessorKenpo (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by satans.barber _
> *Ah, the Summer Camp? I noticed your name was down as the guest instructor! I actually had a letter from Jenny Mills inviting me to it, but I don't know if I can make it. It's a long way away from where I live unfortunately, but I also don't know if I can get the time off work
> 
> I've got 3 exams the week before as well (next week) so I'm going to be pretty knackered by the weekend!
> ...


http://www.mapquest.com/directions/...3d&1ah=&2y=GB&2a=&2c=London&2z=&2ah=&x=76&y=5


Check the link Ian.

Have a great Kenpo day

Clyde


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## webpage20022003 (May 28, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri _
> *webpage20022003-
> 
> 
> ...



 why do i ask that question? because i would like to know what his perspective about "good workout partners is . That's all.

agree with what you said here



> *
> 
> "his throat got slitted on the street? his martial art skill is no good. Period."
> 
> ...



one person can hurt another person when that person comes *close*.

why would you want that person to be *close*?


> *
> 
> "I don't have to run around and give advise to anybody here."
> 
> ...



have a few questions for you:

1- when do you have the authority to tell people whether their opinions are WORTH or WORTHLESS in the world?

2- in your opinion, what advise do you consider *worth*?

3- Do you think your opinion is BETTER than mine? Please tell me that i will tell you it is not TRUE



> *
> Keep your advice to yourself.  Go where the fight is not.  That's part of the yellow belt curriculum. *



i will do that and should do you.  Yellow belt or black belt is not really matter.

if i can defend myself with my yellow belt, i would like to have yellow belt.

by the way, what is your black belt curriculum?


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## Guiseppe Betri (May 29, 2003)

webpage20022003-

okay, you're either 10 years old or you're from another country, because I'm having a rough time following along with your posts especially this specific passage:

"i will do that and should do you.  Yellow belt or black belt is not really matter."

A piece of advice that carries worth, is the one that proves beneficial if followed.  A piece of advice that carries worth is one that may have positive ramifications as a direct result of the advice taken.  Go where the fight is not.  I believe this is a good example.  Aside, there are many pieces of advice that carry worth.  Your earlier attempt by suggesting to Twinkletoes to pick a fight in a neighborhood or bar, was not one that carries worth, thus, worthless.  Is this hard for you to follow?


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## webpage20022003 (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Guiseppe Betri _
> *webpage20022003-
> 
> okay, you're either 10 years old or you're from another country, because I'm having a rough time following along with your posts especially this specific passage:
> ...



i'm not sure if you read my post at all but you appearantly didn't do that.

i suggest you go back and re-read my post and please CAREFULLY read with your BEST and i mean Your ABSOLUTE BEST understanding this time.

don't feel bad if you don't understand at it. Nobody REALLY expects you to understand.

if you come back and tell me that you don't understand, i don't want to sound like your teacher but i will help you understand ok?



> *
> 
> A piece of advice that carries worth, is the one that proves beneficial if followed.  A piece of advice that carries worth is one that may have positive ramifications as a direct result of the advice taken.  Go where the fight is not.  I believe this is a good example.  Aside, there are many pieces of advice that carry worth.  Your earlier attempt by suggesting to Twinkletoes to pick a fight in a neighborhood or bar, was not one that carries worth, thus, worthless.  Is this hard for you to follow? *



so you are saying....everybody's advise here is good EXCEPT mine. ??? What is bias???????

you understand the different between OPINION and ADVISE, don't you? or you are confused ??????????

you can come back here and tell me it is ADVISE. Say and Believe whatever you want about your own post and somebody else's post. You have a right to say whatever you want and also have a right to be WRONG.

let me tell you that Mine is simply an OPINION ( not good and not bad). Just OPINION or comment if you will. Do you understand, don't you?

Opinion , itself, doesn't have the ability to distinguish good and bad. Only people like you pick and choose which one is bad or good. Don't you understand???

and Only people like you make that kind of decision because that is something you feel *good* about it. I'm talking about your feeling without understanding. You are still confused??????

since you made your decision soly based on your feeling, yours is completely worthless and dangerous. Which part of this statement you don't understand????

and you still forgot to answer my question:

1-when do you have the authority to tell other people whether their *advise* is good or bad in this world ?????


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## Michael Billings (May 29, 2003)

This is getting ridiculous!

An OPINION!


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## roryneil (May 29, 2003)

I'm impressed that you can determine that. I can't tell what is being said, or even what language is being used


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## kkbb (May 29, 2003)

I read that last post 10 minutes ago and I am still scratching my head.  Webpage must be a politician:rofl:


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## Michael Billings (May 29, 2003)

Appreciate the Suspension - I was watching the other thread where you warned him.  Good call on this one.

Kudos


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## Seig (May 29, 2003)

Another troll bites the dust.:hammer:


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## KenpoDragon (May 29, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Michael Billings _
> *Appreciate the Suspension - I was watching the other thread where you warned him.  Good call on this one.
> 
> Kudos *


 Did I miss something??? I didn't notice any "bad language" or "you suck" type of comments from webpage20022003 towards Guiseppe, I even went back and looked for them. Can someone tell me exactly why he got suspended please, I've seen other "members" who are far more disrespectful, but I admit that I didn't see any "other" thread where Mr.webpage20022003 was disrespectful. Please Mr/Mrs Moderators enlighten me as to why he got suspended so I know what he did that was so wrong. Thank you.

 :asian: KenpoDragon


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## Guiseppe Betri (May 29, 2003)

webpage20022003 is suspended huh?  Well, thats really too bad because I was really hoping to continue that incredibly intelligent internet-post conversation I was having with him/her.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 30, 2003)

KenpoDragon:  webpage 20022003 was getting personal and challenging some people in the "It's time to promote the Kenpo Grandmasters" thread.  Now that he is suspended, we can get back to our discussion here.

After 30 years of practice, some of the Kenpo stuff is getting boring.  It doesn't seem as alive as some other arts like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Muay Thai.  What can we, the Kenpo community, do to spice things up?


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## rmcrobertson (May 30, 2003)

We can do a better job of training--and realize that shifting to some other school won't magically solve our problems. I haven't looked, but I guarantee that there are lots and lots of jiu-jitsu schools out there where things are as dead as in the worst of kenpo schools. I also guarantee that running from flavor-of-the month to flavor-of the month won't get it...I am reminded of the students running down the street in Jackie Chan's first "Drunken Master," flick...

I think it's great that folks find places they love training, and which seem to answer their questions.


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 30, 2003)

rmcrobertson:  You are right on.  

A better job of training could possibly include methods and techniques from other systems.  A great school in Nor Cal doing this is John Sepulveda's Santa Clara Kenpo (no affiliation with me) where they teach Kickboxing technique and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Grappling to supplement their 16-technique American Kenpo Curriculum.  It would be wonderful if more Kenpo schools did as excellent a job teaching Kenpo and incorporating other arts as well.


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## twinkletoes (May 30, 2003)

rmcrobertson:

I too agree strongly with almost all of what you said.  Shifting to something else won't help (unless you bring the new ideas back).  Running from the newest flavor to the newest flavor definitely won't do it.

The only thing I disagree with is that most jiu-jitsu schools teach dead patterns.  If you mean traditional jiu-jitsu, you are probably correct.  If you mean brazilian jiu-jitsu, I think we are not discussing "dead patterns" the same way.

Dead training is boxing without sparring, wrestling without competing (even in practice), and BJJ without rolling.  If you find any of these it's an extreme minority.  

Unfortunately, Karate's methods of forms (even 2-man sets), cooperative techniques, and hitting targets is not alive practice.  It is still "skill introduction."  It develops accuracy, flow, power, and technique, but *not* timing, distancing and appropriateness.  You must drill (alive) or spar to develop these attributes.  BJJ, wrestling, and boxing do not exist without these (except for rare and bizarre circumstances).  They hold the largest percent of their training in these avenues!

~Chris


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## Kenpomachine (May 31, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Old Guy _
> *Whenever I throw a party I jokingly tell people "Whatever you would like to see at the party, bring it.  That way if you don't have a good time, it's your fault."  If you are no longer finding what you like in Kenpo, try bringing something else to it.  Remember, it is your Kenpo.
> 
> Full salute.  Full respect.
> Rick *



I agree with you wholeheartedly :asian: 
Bring what you find lacking into your kenpo.


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## Kenpomachine (May 31, 2003)

Chris, I don't know if I have misunderstood you or not, but I think you more disillusioned with the way you have to teach kenpo at the school that with kenpo.

I have some questions for you, though:
Do you have to share students with other teachers or they only train with you? 
Is it compulsory for them to test at certain periods of time?
Is the pace at which you have to teach the program set by those above? Do they take your opinions into account?
Have you told them how you feel about this rigidity in training methods?

If teaching techniques is an issue for them, and you feel they're dead (the techniques as now trained, not your superiors  ), try those drills you talked about with them. I.e. have attackers going full power sometimes, lower or higher than written, or adding another hit if the first move is not right and leaves and opening to any target.
And you can search for some techniques lines drills, that got people more "alive" and made them more aware to proper reaction. 
Have them going for light contact first, and then medium contact, so they can "feel" what they're doing and get used to some contact. (Going hard doesn't imply gouging anybody's eye or broking noses, that's what control is for).

If you feel forms are dead, have people doing the attacks on the one performing, so they must think what those moves in the form are.

If spontaneity is an issue, have attackers have two or three different possible attacks (i.e. right or left kick, back bear hugs arms free or arms pinned, back shoulder grabbings or back chokes), so the defender doesn't work on automatic.

Try to break their routine and yours.

And if all this doesn't work for you, take a break from teaching kenpo. Or don't wait that much to open your own school. 

Hope this is of some help with you.

:asian:


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## twinkletoes (May 31, 2003)

Kenpomachine-

I think you may be right, but I'm not sure (about being more disillusioned with *how* I'm teaching).  I will try to qualify my answer.  First, let me answer some of your other questions.

-I share my students with several other instructors.  In fact, there is only about one Kenpo class per week that I teach by myself-otherwise there could be up to 4 other black belts (not to mention assitants) with whom I am dividing the students at any given time [yes, that's right--4 others at one time].  I am just about smack dab in the middle of the heirarchy (which is something else I wish we would do away with, but that's a whole other story).  A couple that I work with regularly are my seniors, and some are my juniors.  

-The students may test during the first week of each month.  In the early ranks (especially with the kids) it is encouraged that they test for a stripe each month.  About every 4-5 months they are eligible for belt testing.  (Before anyone calls McDojo, there are no costs for any of these!).  

-The students do not have to test at these times (especially the adults).  These are times when they *may* test.  

-I think you are onto something when you ask about schedule:  one of the big problems is that (in the kids classes especially) we are always either in testing week, the week after testing week (when we retest kids who almost made it), 2 weeks until testing, or the week before testing.  This means that a good deal of our time is spent on curriculum.  I would say 95% of our teaching is curriculum-based, although I include things like bag-work in that (because it is basics they will be tested on).  With the exception of sparring (every friday, all classes) we spend VERY little time on things that are not explicitly in the belt curriculum.  

Now I will return to what I started at the beginning of this post.  You said I may be tired of these training methods--I think you hit the nail on the head.  That's exactly what I'm tired of.  However, the question becomes, can you change all the training and still have kenpo?  What makes it something else?

If I took out all the forms and all the self-defense techniques, and instead just taught the basic strikes and movements, with lots of drilling and sparring, would it still be kenpo?  I'm not sure.  I don't know how to think of that.  That's the kind of thing I would do.  It seems like that can go in one of a couple directions:

1)  Call it my own style or system of kenpo.  I have no interest in that.  I am actually pretty averse to it.  I don't care to have my name attached to anything like that.

2)  Address it as a "training method" instead of a "style."  This idea is much more appealing, but as I think about it more and more, the process I envision meeting my own expectations is exactly what Roy Harris describes as JKD (www.royharris.com, "What is JKD?").  Since Roy is my BJJ instructor, it makes me want to just go take up JKD with him.

-As for the other instructors at my school, they range from fairly open-minded to the worst I have ever seen.  Some of them openly bash any new or different ideas in front of the students.  Most of them are far too far entrenched in their own ideas to accept new ones.  Others are ok with new drills and training approaches.  I am slowly introducing some of my ideas, with varied results.  Some are met with better reactions than others.  

Thanks for your input--I think it has helped me clarify (in my own mind as well) the problem.

~Chris


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## Brother John (May 31, 2003)

You said, in a MUCH earlier post:


> I hope that other Kenpoists can open their minds and see that our Kenpo is getting a little static and that there are other arts and most especially other training methods. Furthermore, some of these styles are evolving and improving rapidly while Kenpo is working hard to preserve the past.



I'll be short and sweet in my agreeing and disagreeing... (odd for me huh?)

   Not all Kenpoists have such "closed minds". Many of us have a very open outlook on our art and the many ways that we express it. For instance (and this is only one instance, there are others) we in the AKKI are very busy learning all of the new developments that our seniors (Mr. Mills and several of his closest students) are putting into our curriculum. It's very exciting to say the least!! Grappling/chokes...nerve strikes.... new sets, new forms, new techniques, new weapons curriculum, new partner drills..... it goes on. It's very fun. So you see, not all of Kenpo suffers from the stale/staticness that you mention. Even apart from the larger/leadership of the association there is the great lattitude we have to practice it in ways that we feel best meets our needs.

There are others who advance and aren't sitting still. 
        Preserving the past is for museums and libraries.
        Progressing into the future is the legacy of Kenpo.
Just my thoughts...
Your Brother
John


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## Old Fat Kenpoka (May 31, 2003)

Brother John:  I have read and heard good things about the AKKI.  I have not personally worked out with any of their new methods.  

I think there is some good experimentation going on.  Some schools are incorporating other arts.  Other Kenpoists are experimenting within the bounds of Kenpo.  

Unfortunately, too many Kenpoists say "24-technique system is the only true Kenpo" or "That's not the way Ed Parker would have done it."  This has been important in keeping the Kenpo flame alive.  Unfortunately, some who think this way (whether it is 24-technique or any other "approved" curriculum) can be closed minded and are missing the martial arts revolution that has been occuring for the last 10 years.


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## twinkletoes (May 31, 2003)

Brother John-

I'm not Old Fat Kenpoka, but I'll respond too.

I think it's great that people are keeping abreast of new methods and allowing themselves to change.  It's this kind of thing that stops me from losing my love for kenpo entirely.  

I will add, though, that we should not always mistake newer methods for better methods.  I don't say that because I want to preserve the traditional material, but rather because sometimes we replace things without realizing why they needed replacing.   For example, there is no reason that a new kata is inherently any better than an old kata, even if it has "new moves" or "new ideas" in it.  If it's still a set of prearranged movements without variation, it is still only a way of introducing skill and developing certain basic attributes.  

 

I don't mean to imply that you (or anyone else) has said that they are anything more than that.  But I want to make sure that neophytes reading this understand.  

Best,

~Chris

PS- Since nobody has stepped up and answered my question about what defines kenpo, I will make a new thread about it, so we don't get off track.


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## Brother John (May 31, 2003)

> I will add, though, that we should not always mistake newer methods for better methods. I don't say that because I want to preserve the traditional material, but rather because sometimes we replace things without realizing why they needed replacing.



I like that you said it, and I like how...
Kinda like one of my favorite quotes:
"Life IS change, it's growth that's optional."

Not just anyone should think that they have enough insight/knowledge and skill to be able to innovate and revamp an entire system..
I can only speak for the group/association that I'm in and am most familiar with: the AKKI
Here's some info on Mr. Mills (cut and pasted from the AKKI website)



> Mr. Mills was the only person to serve as a member of 1) the I.K.K.A. Systems Council (One of only three members) 2) as the National Testing Director and 3) Regional Representative for a ten state area (region #10), known as the "Paul Mills Family Group", at the same time. He was also one of a handful of Mr. Parker's black belts to teach at the 1991 I.K.K.A. Ed Parker Memorial camp at the Pasadena studio.



So you see, it's not the AKKI that's changing/altering/creating/innovating....
It's Grandmaster Mills who's doing so, for very good tactical reasons.
It's not just anyone who's doing it.... wer'e just soaking it up.

(((OK..ok..... so I've done a little "rah-rah-Rah..." for the AKKI. Like I said though... it's what I know... and even in that I am the least of my AKKI brother's and sisters.)))

Later guys
Your Bro
John


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## Kenpomachine (Jun 1, 2003)

> _Originally posted by twinkletoes _
> *PS- Since nobody has stepped up and answered my question about what defines kenpo, I will make a new thread about it, so we don't get off track.   *



Going to the other thread to reply


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## arnisador (Jun 4, 2003)

On the fourth page are several notes directed to the moderation team. It's important to e-mail/PM/use the "Report to Mod." feature, because we do not read every thread. These were missed. I gather the thread has moved on so I will not re-open these issues unless asked to do so.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-


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## Michael Billings (Jun 4, 2003)

I did both comment, in the hopes that they would self-regulate, then used the button at the bottom to ask you to keep an eye on the thread.  Thanks for monitoring and commenting.


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