# Hock Hocheim opinions?



## Casa De Kenpo

I've been looking for some sore of knife fighting course and came across Hock Hocheim.  Has anyone been to a seminar or seen his DVD's?  Thanks!


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## arnisador

His books are fine. I haven't tried a DVD yet.


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## KenpoTex

I have no knowledge of the material he teaches but I've read a few of his articles and he seems pretty "squared away."


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## Wild Bill

If you are looking for FMA you will be disappointed although he does take a lot from his Modern Arnis background.  He has a realistic point of view.  I like his stuff.  If you are looking for simple practical tactical blade he is one of the best.  In fact you may not like the begining levels because he starts out with  very basic stuff.  I personaly recomend him.  I also think his techniques would be easy to adapt to your own style as he has very simple footwork.  Its not like trying to learn a new art.


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## Casa De Kenpo

Wild Bill said:


> If you are looking for FMA you will be disappointed although he does take a lot from his Modern Arnis background.  He has a realistic point of view.  I like his stuff.  If you are looking for simple practical tactical blade he is one of the best.  In fact you may not like the begining levels because he starts out with  very basic stuff.  I personaly recomend him.  I also think his techniques would be easy to adapt to your own style as he has very simple footwork.  Its not like trying to learn a new art.



Thank you, you've been very hopeful.  I'm actually looking to stay away from FMA towards something different.  Can you recommend anyone else?


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## Drac

I have attended a couple of Hock's classes, he knows his stuff...His knife stuff is GREAT..He teaches 3 different versions, civilian, police and military..He WILL NOT under any circumstances show any of the military applications to non-millitary presonnel...


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## Brian R. VanCise

He's does have some good material.


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## Drac

Brian R. VanCise said:


> He's does have some good material.


 
His hand-to-hand stuff aint bad either...I held an instructors rank in for awhile..I let it slide to concentrate on Combat Hapkido...


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## Dwight McLemore

Here you go.... I've been one of Hoch's Instructors for several years. I've done a lot of work with the man and find him to be a very gifted instructor and great person. The thing that drew me to Hoch's written and video material was the simple, grass-roots approach to teaching and the organization of the material into 'bite-size' pieces.  There is no attempt to impress you with 'whiz-bang' stuff just good grounding in the fundamentals.  I have both the old and new knife/Counter-knife programs and don't regret taking it at all. 

All My Best
Dwight


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## tellner

Drac said:


> He teaches 3 different versions, civilian, police and military..He WILL NOT under any circumstances show any of the military applications to non-millitary presonnel...


 
That's very nice. It makes the cops feel special and the soldiers feel even more special. He's not concealing anything that the "mere civilians" couldn't find with a small amount of effort. He makes the military types happy that he's on their side and law enforcement feel like he's on theirs. And the regular people who take his courses can at least bask in the reflected glory.


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## Imua Kuntao

He has paid his dues and is no beginner, he is ok and could hang with anyone. I would look around though, there are quite a few knife guys out there, me included. Shop around, dont buy material, experience it first then get the dvd stuff and there is alot of that also.


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## Drac

Dwight McLemore said:


> Here you go.... I've been one of Hoch's Instructors for several years. I've done a lot of work with the man and find him to be a very gifted instructor and great person. The thing that drew me to Hoch's written and video material was the simple, grass-roots approach to teaching and the organization of the material into 'bite-size' pieces. There is no attempt to impress you with 'whiz-bang' stuff just good grounding in the fundamentals. I have both the old and new knife/Counter-knife programs and don't regret taking it at all.
> 
> All My Best
> Dwight


 

Bravo...Well said..


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## Wild Bill

Casa De Kenpo said:


> Thank you, you've been very hopeful. I'm actually looking to stay away from FMA towards something different. Can you recommend anyone else?


 
Kelly S. Worden's stuff is good but his primary art is Modern Arnis and FMA is a huge influence in his techniques, at least from what I have seen. I know Michael D. Janich has a good reputation in my circles but I haven't seen any of his material. I have heard mixed reviews of Lynn C. Thompson of Cold Steel. I personally liked his machete DVDs.


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## punisher73

tellner said:


> That's very nice. It makes the cops feel special and the soldiers feel even more special. He's not concealing anything that the "mere civilians" couldn't find with a small amount of effort. He makes the military types happy that he's on their side and law enforcement feel like he's on theirs. And the regular people who take his courses can at least bask in the reflected glory.


 
Why would a civilian need to learn how to stalk up behind an attacker and grab to neutralize them making noise and terminate them?  Military does need to know that.  

If you actually had significant input like this person asked, then good. I'm sure everyone would like to hear about it and benefit from it.  But, coming on threads like this to snipe at police and military doesn't accomplish anything positive.


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## arnisador

tellner said:


> That's very nice. It makes the cops feel special and the soldiers feel even more special. He's not concealing anything that the "mere civilians" couldn't find with a small amount of effort. He makes the military types happy that he's on their side and law enforcement feel like he's on theirs. And the regular people who take his courses can at least bask in the reflected glory.



Hey, marketing happens. What can one do?


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## kroh

I have trained with Hock and can say that he is a personable and professional teacher.  

You say that you are not "into" the Filipino approach to the knife, what technique were you looking for?

Regards, 
Walt


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## Casa De Kenpo

kroh said:


> I have trained with Hock and can say that he is a personable and professional teacher.
> 
> You say that you are not "into" the Filipino approach to the knife, what technique were you looking for?
> 
> Regards,
> Walt



I'm looking for less drills and more strategy/concepts/theory.


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## KenpoTex

punisher73 said:


> Why would a civilian need to learn how to stalk up behind an attacker and grab to neutralize them making noise and terminate them? Military does need to know that.
> 
> If you actually had significant input like this person asked, then good. I'm sure everyone would like to hear about it and benefit from it. But, coming on threads like this to snipe at police and military doesn't accomplish anything positive.


I didn't see any sniping at LE or .mil, what I got from it was a commentary on the marketing practice of instructing some people in methods that you refuse to teach to others simply because of their affiliation (or lack thereof).  Not that there's much he can show that's not available elsewhere, but it creates that "forbidden fruit" idea that is attractive to some.

Thankfully there are instructors that don't adhere to this strategy.


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## tellner

Precisely and well said, Kenpotex. That is exactly what I was trying to say.

It's a marketing strategy that works very well. It has nothing to do with sniping at any segment of the population and is not intended as an insult to Mr. Hockheim. That's just the way you have to do things to make a living in the - sorry 'bout the phrasing - cutthroat world of martial arts and combatives training.


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## Twin Fist

all I know about Hock is that Joe Lansdale LOVES the guy and what he teaches, and that says alot. Soke Lansdale has pretty high standards.


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## Blindside

Casa De Kenpo said:


> I'm looking for less drills and more strategy/concepts/theory.


 
The drills derive from the strategy and tactics of the style, if you are just drilling without knowledge of either of those then that sounds like a problem with the instructor rather than the style.  

Lamont


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## Dwight McLemore

Hoch Hochheim, James Keating, Mike Janish, Kelly Worden. All with FMA backgrounds.....I've been blessed to have trained with all of them. Each has some very
unique aspects that makes it worthwhile to train with them and buy their material.  You won't loose which
ever direction you choose to go. 

Teller:  That was a really demeaning statement that just is not true.  Now if you go to a seminar hosted by Police,naturally Hoch will slant will be toward thier 'less-than-lethal needs. Go to one held by the Army and it will be a bit different.  The seminars I hosted for him over the years were oriented toward the civilian self defense aspect/street aspects. He also can teach corrections people too. Many of us out here have a mix of Military, LEW, and Corrections.....we are also martial artists and American Civilians too. It ain't no private club, but just a matter of selecting one's training priorities. You know, if your going to work in a jail, you probably won't have much use for classical fencing...although it could help.

Best Dwight


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## Mark Lynn

KenpoTex said:


> *I have no knowledge of the material he teaches* but I've read a few of his articles and he seems pretty "squared away."


 


tellner said:


> That's very nice. It makes the cops feel special and the soldiers feel even more special. He's not concealing anything that the *"mere civilians"* couldn't find with a small amount of effort. *He makes the military types happy that he's on their side and law enforcement feel like he's on theirs. And the regular people who take his courses can at least bask in the reflected glory*.


 


KenpoTex said:


> I didn't see any sniping at LE or .mil, what I got from it was a commentary on the marketing practice of instructing some people in methods that you refuse to teach to others simply because of their affiliation (or lack thereof). Not that there's much he can show that's not available elsewhere, but it creates that *"forbidden fruit"* idea that is attractive to some.
> 
> *Thankfully there are instructors that don't adhere to this strategy*.


 
Being a student of Hock's for many years I believe you all have missed the point on what Hock instructs on.  Over the years Hock's programs have changed and his message and delivery has matured/grown/shifted/changed (whatever).  One of the areas he now stresses has been the mission, goals, or the intention of your actions.  So think about it, the mission or goal for civilan self defense is different than a LEO who needs to subdue and arrest the individual, and it is vastly different from the soldier who might need to neutralize a sentry or go up against bayonets or jungle bolos (which we civilians normally wouldn't go up against). 

The amount of time that you might have to instruct these individual groups can be different as well.  Which could also change the content or the material being covered. 

Although marketing can a influence, I don't think it has quite the influnece on Hock's material than what was being alledged.  I'm thankful that there are some instructors who adhere to this strategy of teaching.

Mark


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## Mark Lynn

Dwight McLemore

Dwight's also written a couple of books on Bowie knife, and the fighting tomahawk.

I really enjoyed your Bowie knife or was it big knife fighting video you did for Hock several years ago.  Was it ever reissued on DVD?

Mark


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## Mark Lynn

Casa De Kenpo said:


> I'm looking for less drills and more strategy/concepts/theory.


 
Hock's material could fit this bill.  He doesn't do a lot of the FMA flow or passing type drills.  He does do some like basic Hubud, Sumbrada, but that is a small part and it is used to teach basic concepts of close quarter knife work without trying to tie it into a much bigger larger course on Hubud or Sumbrada where the drill and all of it's nuances takes center stage.

His "In the Clutches of" material was really pretty good dealing with CQ knife when you or your opponent has grabbed the others knife hand.

Mark


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## brianhunter

Hey Cliff,

Try the Dog Brother's "Die Less Often" series. There are some FMA concepts but don't disregard it as FMA. A real deal police officer and gun tactical instructor is on it, they talk about a lot of different things angles, tactics, strategy, less drills, more real! 

As a kenpoist and a FMA'ist I saw a lot of value in the tapes. As a police officer I would recommend the series for any  LEO/Self Defense oriented person.


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## Charleston Combat

Hocks videos aren't bad! Seems very basic stuff anyone can learn! If your looking for blade FMA is the way to go!! Maybe you could look into the IMA's ! Not sure why you would want less drills? By doing these drills over and over it becomes part of you! That 's what you want!! No one can take that away!! Brad


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## Dwight McLemore

Boar Man:   Sorry for the late reply but I've been tied up elseware. Thanks for the mention but I'm not in the same class as the Hoch, Worden, Janish and most of you on this forum. To answer your question about the video. The answer is no!  There are no plans to do a new one or update that. James Keating, Pete Kautz and a number of other people are doing such a great job with new material there is really no reason for this burned out ole wolf to do anything but enjoy their work.  For me I am afraid this is 'The year of the Tomahawk' Paladin Press and some of my friends have twisted my arm to do a video on that weapon with an accompanying update on The Fighting Tomahawk.  With an October 08 shoot-date,  everything is sort of focused there for now.  If anyone cares The Fighting Sword is now out with Paladin and The Fighting Staff will be out next year. Hey !  Talk about marketing....seriously, the short expose I had to this market is enough to make one go anti-violence.  Marketing and the 'Fire' you draw really hurts sometimes.  My hats off to all those who 'Try' to make a living doing this stuff. Those mentioned here are also people of good character and sincere about what they are attempting to do. Yes, they will occasionally slant things to make a buck...but who would not. The short few years I ran my school taught me so many valuable lessons not only in the martial arts but in life as well. My school failed because I never could fully launch myself into the marketing side of it. I did not teach children (big mistake) . So all this said, these guys mentioned here are still around because they are pretty good businessmen and learned a lesson that some of us did not.  Sorry to Droll on but salutes to these people are important. 

Take Care
Dwight


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## R. Derderian

I have known Hock since 1992. I tested up through the ranks in his system at the time (which was more traditional FMA) and made 2nd degree BB. He is a great guy. I honestly have not had the chance to work with him much in the last 6 years but we have stayed in touch. In fact, he is teaching at my annual martial arts camp this September. 
His material now is very bare bones and to the point. Excellent stuff and I highly recommend you check it out. 
Raffi Derderian


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## Franc0

Hocks stuff isn't bad, but after training in his, Janichs', Wordens', Keatings' and few others work, I found AMOK! knife fighting with Tom Sotis was one of the better systems overall. Hocks stuff is good, but I wouldn't end my learning there. 

Franco


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## arnisador

Always good advice! The AMOK! bunch has a very differnt mindset which is well worth considering.


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## The Anarchist

KenpoTex said:


> I didn't see any sniping at LE or .mil, what I got from it was a commentary on the marketing practice of instructing some people in methods that you refuse to teach to others simply because of their affiliation (or lack thereof). Not that there's much he can show that's not available elsewhere, but it creates that "forbidden fruit" idea that is attractive to some.
> 
> Thankfully there are instructors that don't adhere to this strategy.


 
Pretty much if you learn from Hocheim you won't learn "that good stuff". If you learn from FMA's directly, everybody is doing the same thing.


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## howard

I went to one of Hock's weekend seminars several years ago in Southern New Jersey. Went out for lunch with him and several of the participants.

I thought he was a very down-to-earth guy who knew what he was doing and teaching. He taught a mixture of techniques from arts from all around the Pacific rim. It was very practical stuff.

He seems to be upfront about his background and what he teaches. And he has years of law enforcement experience to draw on. IIRC, he's a retired detective from the Houston, TX police department.

I'd go to another one of his seminars in the future.


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## BLACK LION

punisher73 said:


> Why would a civilian need to learn how to stalk up behind an attacker and grab to neutralize them making noise and terminate them? Military does need to know that.


 
ok ok I cant help myself.....please dont hold it against me 

i think you mean= making no noise 
even still sounds a bit sloppy....

sentry removal or ambush is what you are reffering to and there is plenty material out there for us civies 

the proper way is.... you stalk from behind below the peripherals  reaching around you pinch the nose between the thumb and the ridge of the hand(ideally against the pointer knuckle)y while cupping the mouth at the same time thrusting into the heart and dragging them backwards....  this is the only way to ensure  their cry is muffled....some people prefer to pierce the back but that wont deanimate them as fast as a heart shot and they will want to move forward away from you making it harder to take them down then drag em to a stach spot

oh and hock hocheim has some good material .... you should check it out and use what is helpful...then move onto someone else and do the same

sorry again for the rant guys... im new here


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## UrBaN

> but after training in his, Janichs', Wordens', Keatings' and few others work, I found AMOK! knife fighting with Tom Sotis was one of the better systems overall.


I'll second that. Sotis' Amok! Combatives is the most realistic training available today.

I also recommend Keating's Drawpoint system which is based in only 3 drills. It is modified Pekiti Tirsia but with the simplistic, conceptual and analytical approach of James Keating. 
The best part of it, is that it is a conceptual system, i.e. its movements, strategy and tactics translate to empty hands, impact & improvised weapons as well.
Very easy to learn, an effective & practical self defense system.


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## Franc0

UrBaN said:


> I also recommend Keating's Drawpoint system which is based in only 3 drills. It is modified Pekiti Tirsia but with the simplistic, conceptual and analytical approach of James Keating.
> The best part of it, is that it is a conceptual system, i.e. its movements, strategy and tactics translate to empty hands, impact & improvised weapons as well.
> Very easy to learn, an effective & practical self defense system.


 
Yes, I'll second that too. I always like my knifing KISS. More good stuff is SouthNarcs Shiv Works. 

Franco


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## arnisador

UrBaN said:


> I also recommend Keating's Drawpoint system which is based in only 3 drills.



I'd like to hear more about this system!


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## UrBaN

Sure, I'll post a new thread.


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## jdp29

I highly recommend AMOK!.  It is by far the most realistic blade work I have ever trained in.  Mike Janich is excellent as well, but not as in depth as AMOK! 

As far as Hock goes I haven't heard anything earth shattering about him.  There are tons of guy way better and more up to date on street tactics.


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## kroh

jdp29 said:


> I highly recommend AMOK!.  It is by far the most realistic blade work I have ever trained in.  Mike Janich is excellent as well, but not as in depth as AMOK!
> 
> As far as Hock goes I haven't heard anything earth shattering about him.  There are tons of guy way better and more up to date on street tactics.



Hock is an excellent instructor and a former Military and civilian Police Officer.  I don't know how much more "up to date" on the street the other folks you are talking about are, but 30 years of Law Enforcement surely qualifies some one.  Th best modern martial arts that will see the most effective implimentation out in the field will either come from cops, criminals or military because they have to use it every day (versus some one who doesn't and just teaches it every day).

I have also heard great things about Michael Janich as well as AMOK.  Tom Sotis has a very loyal following here in Rhode Island.

Regards, 
Walt


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## jdp29

Yes, training with Tom here in RI has been a huge benefit to me.  I can't say enough about him. There are not many "great" teachers in the RI area I am lucky to study with 2 of them.   My feelings on "police" experience are varied.  Some locals don't take it to the right level in fear of liability issues.  They teach more of control tactics and I am not imressed.  Self defense is about self presservation.  When one is trying to do you harm you do "whatever it takes" in order to be victorious.  That may mean simply running away, or may mean sticking a pencil in someones eye.  Not many police instructors teach that.  I feel most departments do their guys more harm than good.  The military training is much different, and I am sure this is Hock's niche and where he should focus.


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## kroh

You said that you train with 2 great instructors in Rhode Island.  Mr.Sotis is one and who is the second?

Regards, 
Walt


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## jdp29

Frank Masiello


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