# Opinions Wanted



## Bob Hubbard (Mar 24, 2009)

I've had a suggestion to limit posting in The Study to Supporting Members only.

Regular members would still be able to read it.

Thoughts?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 24, 2009)

That's a tough one, Cap'n.

Given that over the past few days I was very close to hanging up my hat here just because of the sheer volume of aggressive/vile/partisan/dimwitted/argumentative nonsense that was being posted, I have to say that a more 'select' membership for the Study would be a good thing for the pleasantness of the place.

However, there could be a downturn in the volume of traffic, which is one of the pillars upon which the existence of MT stands. Of course, those who like being here at MT and are committed to having their say, even if it costs them a bit of coin, will simply join up as Supporting Members. Which means more income, which helps secure the continued existence of the site.

I'd suggest giving it a go and see what happens over the course of a couple of months - just don't let on that it's a 'trial' or people will just wait in the wings on the off-chance that it becomes free again :wink1:.

EDIT:  Actually, I just realised that some of the soul-destroying posts I referred to above weren't in the Study at all .  That does rather temper things a little as it shows that unpleasant behaviour can sprout in more than the one, more lightly regulated, place.


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## Nolerama (Mar 24, 2009)

I guess I'll buck up and become a supporting member soon. MT has been good to me and the people here are pretty awesome.


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## The Last Legionary (Mar 24, 2009)

How many pain in the *** posters are supporting the site, and how many aren't? 
How many only seem to post in the Study and don't contribute much if anything to the art sections?
Is the headache worth it to have non-supporters causing most of the pattern baldness and therapy bills in your staff?
Do you think they would pony up the couple of bucks, or just ***** about how everything in life should be free for them?
Would restricting posting to paid members bump up the quality and lessen the venom, or would people just think that because they paid, that they were immune to the rules?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 24, 2009)

Lots of truth (multi-coloured no less ) there, *TLL*.  

To address your last, to my mind at least, if someone has paid to gain access to something that is worthwhile to them and that something can be removed because of their own bad actions, then a rational person would be less likely to commit those actions.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 24, 2009)

*Top 25 Posters and Topic Starters Jan-Mar 2009
Posts*  (14/25)
Bob Hubbard         439
elder999         362
Twin Fist         349
Tez3         278
Gordon Nore         257
Bill Mattocks         248
Thesemindz         216
arnisador         211
sgtmac_46         209
Carol Kaur         194
Sukerkin         188
Cryozombie         171
Empty Hands         167
MA-Caver         167
jarrod         161
Archangel M         153
maunakumu         146
shesulsa         139
Andy Moynihan         131
CoryKS         126
tellner         115
stevebjj         91
Ramirez         88
crushing         85
searcher         82


*Topics* (13/25)
Bob Hubbard         64
MA-Caver         24
Bill Mattocks         18
Thesemindz         11
Twin Fist         10
jetboatdeath         9
maunakumu         8
elder999         6
Carol Kaur         6
jarrod         6
Rich Parsons         5
Cryozombie         5
Joab         4
Sukerkin         4
MJS         4
Brian S         4
Tez3         4
JadecloudAlchemist         4
KenpoTex         3
searcher         3
FearlessFreep         3
arnisador         3
tellner         3
Brian R. VanCise         3
sgtmac_46         3

Red are supporting members and/or gold key members.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 24, 2009)

Bob,
before I post this, i want to say that you know i love ya.

not no but hell no.

When I have the means, i intend to become a supporting member, mostly because i respect you keeping this here.

but that is essentially pay to play, and if you do that, then you cant ban people from posting. or you have to agree to give them their money back.

dont get me wrong, I would leave the study un-moderated. But thats just me.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 24, 2009)

I think of it more as paying admission to a club, casino et al. You have to follow the rules or you get ejected. If it happens, then because that ejection comes about as a result of breaking the rules, then you don't get your money back.

EDIT: Of course, here I'm using an analogy for how such places work here in Britain.  I'm only assuming that America has similar 'customs'?


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## Brian R. VanCise (Mar 24, 2009)

I am not for a supporting member fee just for the study.
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





I would _consider_ a board wide mandatory supporting member fee but probably would vote against it in the long run.


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## Sukerkin (Mar 24, 2009)

I believe what Cap'n Bob is talking about is adding the Study to the list of benefits that Supporting Membership gets you, rather than levying an additional charge.


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## Cryozombie (Mar 24, 2009)

My only concern is what happens when you burn out, have had enough and kill the site as you have suggested in the past?  Eek.


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## elder999 (Mar 24, 2009)

I voted no.

I agree-_gulp!_ with *Twin Fist,* and Brian. I should point out though:



Twin Fist said:


> Bob,
> then you cant ban people from posting. or you have to agree to give them their money back.


 
That I have a "Lifetime" supporting membership, and it's been made clear to me that I could still be banned from posting.



Twin Fist said:


> dont get me wrong, I would leave the study un-moderated. But thats just me.


 
It's probably not just you. Doing that might alleviate the headaches for Bob as well, but it would, ultimately, result in the sort of unfriendliness that none of us wants representing them in perpetuity-or representing what this forum is about. I've got more than a couple of things posted here that I'd like to take back-not all of them unfriendly, maybe just indiscreet. In fact, I'm rather attached to a few of the less friendly posts......:lol:

....but that's just me.

Bottome line: there are more than a few non-supporting members on that list of Bob's, and I've come to value and look forward to some of their posts. I know a few of them can afford the supporting membership, and it's no secret that a few of them probably  can't.


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## Carol (Mar 24, 2009)

No I do not support the idea.

Personally, I prefer management over legislation.



The Last Legionary said:


> How many pain in the *** posters are supporting the site, and how many aren't?



If there are PITA posters, then it is the PITA posters that should be punished, not the community at large.



> How many only seem to post in the Study and don't contribute much if anything to the art sections?




Not enough for anyone to communicate expectations that only posting in the Study and not the Arts section is not a permissible thing to do.




> Is the headache worth it to have non-supporters causing most of the pattern baldness and therapy bills in your staff?


If there are PITA posters, then it is the PITA posters that should be punished, not the community at large.



> Do you think they would pony up the couple of bucks, or just ***** about how everything in life should be free for them?
> Would restricting posting to paid members bump up the quality and lessen the venom, or would people just think that because they paid, that they were immune to the rules?


If there are PITA posters, then it is the PITA posters that should be punished, not the community at large.


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## arnisador (Mar 24, 2009)

The Last Legionary said:


> How many pain in the *** posters are supporting the site, and how many aren't?
> How many only seem to post in the Study and don't contribute much if anything to the art sections?
> Is the headache worth it to have non-supporters causing most of the pattern baldness and therapy bills in your staff?
> Do you think they would pony up the couple of bucks, or just ***** about how everything in life should be free for them?
> Would restricting posting to paid members bump up the quality and lessen the venom, or would people just think that because they paid, that they were immune to the rules?



I think I just had an epileptic fit.



Bob Hubbard said:


> Red are supporting members and/or gold key members.



Oddly, that seems to correlate with their politics too. You'd have a mighty boring Study at that point.

Remember also that in principle The Study is here to help draw away these conversation from, e.g., General Martial Arts. You might see more sprouting up there. Don't like random airport screenings? they're looking for knives, I suppose...is there a knife subforum here, I wonder?


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## jks9199 (Mar 24, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> I think of it more as paying admission to a club, casino et al. You have to follow the rules or you get ejected. If it happens, then because that ejection comes about as a result of breaking the rules, then you don't get your money back.
> 
> EDIT: Of course, here I'm using an analogy for how such places work here in Britain.  I'm only assuming that America has similar 'customs'?


Yep -- and that would be my take, as well.

You pays your ticket, you takes your chances.  If you don't play by the rules, you get kicked out.

But I'm on the fence.  I happen to be re-reading *The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress*.  TANSTAAFL.  There ain't no such thing as a free lunch.  Supporting members and advertisers pay the bills for the "freeloaders" who just register and post.  In return, Bob gives supporting members some perks that aren't available to the "mere" registered members.   And, I'm sorry, but the whole $20 bucks for a year's membership ain't much...

At the same time -- the economy's tough.  (For Bob, too.)  Even spread over a year, $20 can be a big deal if you're unemployed.  And The Study does generate traffic; traffic equals eyes, eyes equals money from advertisers.

Like I said -- I'm on the fence at the moment.  Gonna give it some thought.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 24, 2009)

I think, over the last 8 years or so, we've only ejected 3 people who were Supporting Members. I offered all 3 full refunds, think only 1 took it.

As to me burning out -and- killing the site, I'll be honest. I have thought about it. I am burned out, have been for a long time now. But I also turned down an offer of $45,000 for MT last summer with long term residuals, because I couldn't be sure that the site would continue the way I believe it should be, and that y'all would be taken care of.  As long as there's enough supporting members to cover the cost of the dedicated server, and I don't have to "live" on here, (and I'm alive) MT will keep on keeping on.

Course, it'd be nice to see it create a livable income for me too. 

As to the Study, my thoughts were keep it visible, but make it a supporters feature, like the Arcade, etc. I've also had it suggested a few times to take the board totally pay only. Would certainly cut back on the number of spammers we deal with, after all they are too cheap to pay $5 for a trial membership. 
But, it'd also eliminate 90+% of our members, and to me, that's not acceptable.


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## shesulsa (Mar 24, 2009)

Cryozombie said:


> My only concern is what happens when you burn out, have had enough and kill the site as you have suggested in the past?  Eek.



I think the Study is such a pain in the *** to moderate that if it alone hasn't driven volunteer staff away already, it likely will soon.  I know of at least one other staff member besides myself that is absolutely burned out and I'll cop to hanging on by my bleeding fingernails.

An unmoderated study leaves a free-for-all bull **** section where the most idiotic things can be posted, insults slung, threats leveled (you know, kind of like now) but without any control nor reprimand.  If you do this, Bob, I think you should split off the study and create your own Political forum separate from MartialTalk.com.  However, MT without the Study? The idea feels a bit strange to me.  I have to imagine that the Locker Room would explode in social and political commentary regardless since our fine membership here are opinionated, educated and are interested in learning.

But if it is to remain with MT, then I can't see it being unmoderated.

It's interesting to see people SO vociferously opposing the idea when they probably do not realize that the handful of persons about whom we receive the most complaints and must deal with on some level damn near every day are so willing to cause their trouble, yet refuse to pay for ours.

The study activity of late has just been disgusting to me and the hope I try to have for humankind is nonetheless dashed every single day because of it - yet, I would hate, hate, hate to see it go.

I think the idea of allowing all to read the study but pay to post (supporting member feature) is an excellent one.  If one is so passionate about their convictions as to bring it the way some here do, then let them fully commit.

:asian:


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## morph4me (Mar 24, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> I think the Study is such a pain in the *** to moderate that if it alone hasn't driven volunteer staff away already, it likely will soon. I know of at least one other staff member besides myself that is absolutely burned out and I'll cop to hanging on by my bleeding fingernails.
> 
> An unmoderated study leaves a free-for-all bull **** section where the most idiotic things can be posted, insults slung, threats leveled (you know, kind of like now) but without any control nor reprimand. If you do this, Bob, I think you should split off the study and create your own Political forum separate from MartialTalk.com. However, MT without the Study? The idea feels a bit strange to me. I have to imagine that the Locker Room would explode in social and political commentary regardless since our fine membership here are opinionated, educated and are interested in learning.
> 
> ...


 
I couldn't agree more, and I couldn't have said it better :asian:


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 25, 2009)

A question was raised on how hard moderating the site can be.  I just went back through the reports.  These are just reports. There are hundreds of posts back and forth between the staff to try and decide what is and isn't a violation, to wade out the "having a bad day"  from the "certified prat", as well as the cultural and regional differences (ie someone from the Bronx is blunter than someone from SoCal., etc).
*
January Reported Items

Reported PMs - 0
Reported Visitor Messages - 0
Reported posts - 131 (Note does not indicate number of reports, just posts that were reported)*

26    The Study 
14    Kenpo / Kempo - General 
13    Ninjutsu - General Discussion 
10    General Martial Arts Talk 
9    Wing Chun 
5    Hapkido 
4    Tae-Kwon-Do 
3    Beginners Corner -T: Interesting Torrent 
3    Japanese Swords and Sword Arts 
3    Meet & Greet 
3    The Great Debate 
3    The Locker Room 
3    US Political Discussion and Debate 
2    Boxing/Kickboxing 
2    General Self Defense 
2    JMA From Around the Web 
2    Karate 
2    Muay Thai 
2    The Firing Range (Firearms) 
2    Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists) 
1    Chinese Martial Arts - General
1    CMA From Around the Web
1    Filipino Martial Arts - General
1    FMA From Around the Web 
1    Game Room 
1    Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling 
1    Jujutsu / Judo 
1    KenpoTalk 
1    Knife Arts 
1    MMA 
1    Modern Arnis 
1    Philosophy and Spirituality in the Arts 
1    Russian Martial Arts 
1    Tang Soo Do 
1    The Hall of Remembrance (Memorials) 
1    The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) 
1    The Urusai Bar & Grill 
1    Traditional Healing Arts 


*February Reported Items

Reported PMs - 1
Reported Visitor Messages - 3
Reported posts - 121 (Note does not indicate number of reports, just posts that were reported)*

14    General Martial Arts Talk -14
11    General Self Defense -11
11    Wing Chun -11
9    Ninjutsu - General Discussion -9
8    Tae-Kwon-Do -8
5    Hapkido -5
5    The Great Debate 5
4    Japanese Martial Arts - General -4
4    Jujutsu / Judo -4
4    Tang Soo Do -4
4    The Study -4
3    Horror Stories -3
3    Kenpo / Kempo - General -3
3    The Rec Room (Sports and Entertainment) -3
3    US Political Discussion and Debate -3
2    Game Room -2
2    Health Tips for the Martial Artist -2
2    JKD / Jeet Kune Do -2
2    Meet & Greet -2
2    Member Announcements -2
2    The Locker Room -2
1    Aikido - 1
1    Ask The MT Advisory Board -1
1    Filipino Martial Arts - General - 1
1    FMA From Around the Web - 1
1    Grappling / Brazilian Ju Jitsu / Wrestling -1
1    JMA From Around the Web -1
1    Karate -1
1    Korean Martial Arts - General -1
1    MartialTalk Magazine -1
1    MMA -1
1    Muay Thai -1
1    Northern Systems -1
1    Southern Systems -1
1    Sword Arts Talk -1
1    Taijiquan (Tai Chi) and QiGong -1
1    The ProShop -1
1    The Urusai Bar & Grill -1
1    Women of the Martial Arts (Women Martial Artists) -1



We can't go free-for-all.  That would work if everyone could behave, and not fall into insults, slander, defamation of character, insults, and poo flinging.  The other extreme, full moderation, it too much work, takes too much time, and puts us at legal risk should we let a turd through.  We try not to filter too much, while relying on our members to self-moderate as well.  It works, but like anything, people are people.

Some folks think that only they get infracted, warned, etc. In all honesty, if you've made more than 100 posts in the Study, you've most likely gotten at the least a warning.  I'd say that anyone active and regular in here, has gotten a warning IC, or a points IC at some time, including me.

Now, I tossed this out for feedback, as I was curious on the idea.  The way I see it, Sure we can shut it down. But then the topics mix in to the rest of the site diluting the rest. No good.
We can shut it down, ban the topics. Other sites do that.  But that hurts traffic, doesn't stop the talk, just makes more work for staff, etc. No good.
We can go pay only. Problem is, we'd lose half the posters out right, another quarter as the conversations die out and become little more than news blurbs. Again, no good.

So finding that balance between the needs of the site, the needs of our members, the needs of our staff, all becomes a challenge.

If you're a regular, if you're here a lot, if you're always reading, or posting, or arguing, seriously though, think about supporting the site financially.  It keeps things running.

I've heard "I won't pay unless you ban so and so". "No, you gave me an IC, you guys are dicks." "I don't like you Bob". "I don't like your politics" "One of your staff spanked me" "I don't pay" etc, as reasons for not becoming a supporting member.

Most are pretty dumb IMO. I don't ask anyone to worship me, convert to my faith, vote for my candidate, become a clone of me, etc. Would be a boring world.

If you don't like the site, think we're a leftist/rightist/whateverist site, think the staff is corrupt, biased, out to get you, why the hell are you here then? Seriously! Go away already, and find someplace that gives you warm and fuzzies.  

If you have problems, let us know. Let me know.  Got ideas? Same thing. Want to help? Let me know.  Want to be a mod? Earn an invite as a Mentor, and we'll consider you in the future.  Want to buy the board and run it your way? Meet my price, and it's yours.  Cash only please. It's a 6 figure amount, and that first digit isn't a 1, 2, 3 or 4.


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## Steve (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't know. I will say that posting in the study wouldn't be enough incentive to becoming a supporting member. I have largely given up on the study in general. 10 or so years ago, when Bush was making his run for president, I would have been very involved in that kind of debate, but I just have no interest in it.

I guess my prediction is that if you want to pretty much kill the area, make it exclusive. I think the traffic will slow to a crawl through there. If you think it's valuable to the site, I'd keep it open to anyone.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob Hubbard said:


> I've had a suggestion to limit posting in The Study to Supporting Members only.
> 
> Regular members would still be able to read it.
> 
> Thoughts?


 
Well Bob, it's your site.

Personally, I'd hope you leave it open. I've been meaning for years to support, and never found the money. I'm not going to make excuses for it, it is what it is. I'm taking advantage of the free services you offer.

If you make it pay for play, I'll probably still take advantage of the free services, but I'll miss another one I'm not paying for.

Like I said, it's your site, but I hope you leave it the way it is.


-Rob


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2009)

Bob the study need to stay even though I cannot stand it for the various reasons. I would suggest you make it by invite only for those individuals that are really causing you the most problems, but then again that would be censorship and I am not for that. The best thing is to meave it and carry on the way it has been and those that cannot seem to get the rule go and seel tranquality for a brief while.


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## Thesemindz (Mar 25, 2009)

shesulsa said:


> An unmoderated study leaves a free-for-all bull **** section where the most idiotic things can be posted, insults slung, threats leveled (you know, kind of like now)


 
I guess it's just me, but I haven't noticed it being so bad.

I mean, I understand that sometimes the conversations get kinda heated, and I understand that there are some differing opinions, but has it really gotten this out of hand?

Maybe I've just missed those threads. I know I've gotten in some heated discussions with some other posters, and sometimes I've put people on my ignore list, although I always take them back off immediately because I can't handle not knowing, but nothing I've seen has driven me away.

Not everyone agrees with me. Not everyone holds views I consider legitimate, or reasonable, or even sane. Some people hold views I find misguided, or based on faulty information. I even think a few people are morons. But that's ok. I'm sure many people feel the same way about me. It doesn't bother me, I'm confident in my positions, and for the most part I enjoy discussing them.

Like I said, I don't know. I always try to be rational in the study, even when I see someone post something that drives me crazy. I know sometimes I get passionate, and I suppose sometimes I can be abrasive with my positions, but I've always tried to stay within the limitations of TOS and listen to Mod warnings. 

Has it really gotten so bad? Are the Mods really at their wits ends? I'm not being sarcastic, I'm just asking. Maybe I just missed some posts in there somewhere, or maybe they were in threads I didn't read, but it seems like a lot of people are calling it quits on the study lately, and I guess I just don't understand the furor.


-Rob


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## Sukerkin (Mar 25, 2009)

Simple answer, *TM*, Yes, it is that bad. 

I log in at dinner time at work and Moderate for 3/4 hour. I log in when I get home from work and Moderate for anything between 3 and 6 hours depending on how thick the **** is lying. 

Where am I all that time? In the Study, trying to get people to grasp the simple concept that it is possible to violently disagree with someones views whilst still acting like a reasonable well adjusted adult and not a child of twelve who can't have their own way. As with law enforcement, it always seems to be the same people who keep rising to the top of the "naughty step" list too. Logging in day after day and seeing that half of what I'm looking at in New Posts is RTM's (lots from the 'usual suspects') gets a little soul destroying.

Every once in a while I might actually get to post on something I'm interested in and have a conversation with another grown up but mostly it's trying to get people to sit down and behave, hoovering up the mess when that doesn't work and discussing with my colleagues what to do about the latest train wreck.

Because there is an extremely fair, codified, hierarchy of regulations about how to deal with wrong-doers, it can take a very long time indeed before someone earns themselves a suspension. That just adds up to a never reducing mountain that we on Staff shovel at each and every day. In all honesty it feels like policing an infinite street full of drunken chavs.


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## Andy Moynihan (Mar 25, 2009)

Right.

Suppose I'll weigh in then.

As a former moderator of another forum( Sukerkin knows whereof I speak as he and i first "met" there), I know firsthand the amount of work that goes into moderating a forum of the size and scope of MT. That's partly why I try never to give anyone cause to warn me over something because I've been there once myself, done the moderating job before and , frankly, would NEVER do it again.

So it isn't always obvious whether the mod staff are having a tough time or not, but it's always busier than it looks, trust me.

At this other forum, the topic of banning political discussion came up one year.

I was strongly enough opposed to it that I was prepared to resign if it were enacted.

It turns out that it didn't.

Over the next year that followed even I was enough disgusted at the behavior of enough members that a year later I was one of those who most strongly *supported* such a ban.

That year it turns out it went through.

And yes, it got quieter. *Temporarily*.

But we had no less headaches by the end of that year because the nature of the beast is that politics brushes against almost all other topics.

But that also, in hindsight, marked the decline of that forum. We lost something, a lot of sense of "community", the place just wasn't the same or as friendly.

See that's what people miss in this age where conflict is considered "bad"--it's part of socializing. I had to learn this the hard way myself, relatively later in my life, but really, look at two people who settle an issue in court, versus two who slap some gloves on and have at in the gym or backyard.

I bet most of us can guess which pair of people is more likely to take some relieved breaths, say "Okay, we had it out, it's over now" then go for drinks.

The only people who walk away "happy" or the "winners" in the courtroom are the attorneys.

Hell, even back when duelling was legal, they were not always, or later even *mostly*, to the death--in many cases the "first drawn blood" was enough, "honor" was "satisfied", and sometimes you even became friends.

Even back in my childhood--we were the last generation to escape PC meddling--once you beat, or even just fought, someone, you became friends, or at least the antagonism stopped.

Add to this that different parts of the country( this is a largely US community but even in Europe or the UK there are, I'm sure, similar regional differences as we have here because that's human nature), there will be those who've grown up with completely different attitudes to conflict. There's a concept in the Southern states of a "friendly fight" that doesn't exist in my native New England, for example. Where I was from, fighting somebody was to put them down in self defense and for no other purpose. In other places it's part of welcoming one into another group.

Imagine the mixed signals on an internet forum from just that difference in attitude alone. It'd be rather like the verbal/text equivalent of (Poster #1) "What's the matter, boy, you yella?(poster#2)*SNAPCRACKLEPOPMANGLEHARM*( crowd) "Dude, WTF?!?!?!?!!"

Which, now that we come to it, isn't that sort of miscommunication and differing views of conflict the very reason we're having this discussion to start with?

It was like when I went to the 2007 Meet and Greet and I met Terry the first time( Hi Terry ). I was struck by his outspokenness because , where I grew up, speaking in a loud tone of voice that everyone could always hear would in many cases be considered bad manners, however, in Texas, where Terry is from, that's just the normal way of talking--why say something if you haven't the conviction to *SAY* it, was the "vibe" I've gotten from one or two Texans since I met Terry and down there, that's normal. And Terry's an awesome guy.

If worse comes to worst, you have the ability that we, on the other forum never did of simply restricting certain posters' access to certain boards. In this way, no innocent posters are affected.


Hope you found something of use in my little ramble here. After considering it, my vote, were it to exist, would be to keep it open and prune offending branches when necessary.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 25, 2009)

I can only answer for me here. 
My martial arts training effectively ended in 2005.  So, it's hard for me to participate in most of the site.  Politics, social areas, those I can still involve in, and after the last few years immersion, especially after the 08 election, I find myself beyond burned out, apathetic is more like it.  I don't care, much, on alot of things, and that bothers me.  So, my stepping back is to let my fried "caring" cells heal.  I'm still tossing up the odd topic, and will be popping in here and there, but I need time to catch my breath. 

Now, that said, yes, some of the mods are tired, and some are burning out. Same reasons.  Seems I remember the same thing happening in 2005 after the 04 election as well.   Some of them spend more time on here, than I do, and I'm on 5-6 hrs a day.  Much of the "burn out sources" isn't what you see in public, it's from the discussions in the back, the back and forths with members.  Most people get a cool down note, they cool down. Some though, you'd think we'd just tried to ram the DeathStar up their bums, after first covering it in hot sauce and salt.   Some folks think that a couple of stripes on a bit of fabric, a couple of bits of wall candy, or a fancy title means that they can treat us like dirt. They are beyond indignant when we inform them it doesn't.

I've had so called martial arts masters threaten me with bodily harm and legal action over a fracking "play nice" warning that was posted in a thread they were involved in, if you can believe that bit of stupidity.  I had another one call me up and run off a string of profanity so rude, even the redist of rednecks would be ashamed.  I've had another couple of our banned "winners" roast me on another site, and bring my family into the mix, defame my character, call me a tax cheat, and imply worse.  It gets a bit, old, fast. 

Over an internet forum.  Don't get me wrong, I think MT is the best damn forum there is, but at the end of the day, it's a forum. It ain't gold plated or diamond encrusted. It's a BBS. 

One I've made a lot of good aquaintances, a few close friends, and a few dear enemies with, and made a few bucks on, with and through.

So, my intent with MT is to keep it going, until I can't. At that point, I'll do what I can to see it continues. More money's always good, but we're not going to shut down tomorrow, or go pay only tomorrow if you don't. It'd just be appreciated if ya did.

So, there's my bit.  Or part at least.

As to staff burnout, it's not because of just the study. Life happens. Interests change, real life gets in the way.  So, I just need to figure out how to give them breaks, keep things going, and make sure I get enough R&R too.

Y'all help us out.  Keep it civil, stop ripping into one another when things go boom. Don't give us a hard time over little things. A wrist slap is a wrist slap, so understand our intent isn't to run anyone off, but keep things as open as we can within reason. Problem? Report it, then shut up and let us handle it. Problem with staff?

Call 716-XXX-XXXX, ask for Bob. That's me.  10am-8pm any day of the week, if I'm not there, leave a number and I will call you back ASAP (US/Canada only).

How many board owners put up their number and say call me? AFAIK, I'm the only one.

Y'all help us, we help you, we have a great site, and we can all have fun.

k?


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## terryl965 (Mar 25, 2009)

Andy Thank you for remembering me and I am load and very load at times but it is my nature. I am the nicest guy and will do what I can for everybody. Bob keep trucking and hopefully people will change, not likely though. I love MT and the people I have meet though this site.


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## Gordon Nore (Mar 25, 2009)

Sukerkin said:


> ...trying to get people to grasp the simple concept that it is possible to violently disagree with someones views whilst still acting like a reasonable well adjusted adult and not a child of twelve who can't have their own way.



...and you do that very well, Mark. 

Bob et al.

I understand the stresses associated with both moderating and participating on a forum. Lashing out at someone or his/her opinion happens in a way online that it might not in person. Some combination of martial arts training, social propriety, what-have-you, probably informs everyone here that we don't smack each other in the head when speaking face to face because we differ. Online tends to be a different story. Read comments on any YouTube video, and The Study looks comparatively staid.

However, if staff are stretched to the point that they can't simply enjoy being here, the outcome is pretty clear. Nobody likes feeling used-up, whether there is a pay cheque or not. Bob's description of being threatened legally or with acts of violence makes me sick. What makes me sicker is that it doesn't come as a surprise.

Among the options discussed:

Study for supporting members only. No. I threw my $20 onto the collection plate for a tiny bit of convenience and just to help out. I don't expect more access to discussion for having donated a few bucks.

Un-moderated Study. Un-moderated equates, to me, as "no rules." I may be off on that, but I assume everything blows up all the time. Threads might or might not get locked.

Beyond that I don't know what to say. I don't like seeing people abused. 

Please all do what is best for you.


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## Twin Fist (Mar 25, 2009)

well, gee, here is a thought, everyone grow up, get a thicker skin, and learn to use the "ignore list" feature.

no, seriously.

if someone bugs you with thier crap? ignore them. if they are constantly spewing stuff that gets under your skin? ignore them.

it's pretty simple, and no one has to go behind everyone trying to clean up poop....


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## jks9199 (Mar 25, 2009)

No rules does not equal fun for all.  I think it was Larry Niven -- but I'm not at all certain! -- who wrote a short story set in a "freedom park" where most of the normal rules didn't apply, so long as nobody was hurt.  Remote drones monitored the park, and stunned those who were harming others.  So, nudity, running wild, you name it -- it was OK in the park.  Until the day the monitor drones went down...  and at first, everyone had a ball.  Until it went bad, and someone started chasing the pretty young thing enjoying dancing in so little that it made nothing look overdressed.  Anarchy wasn't the same thing as freedom...

Which is a very long winded way to say that no rules in the study would not be fun, for long.

Pay only?  Not sure that it'd really make a difference.  The folks who cause most of the problems could still pony up the cash and get in, if they wanted.  And I don't think it'd do much to pull in many more supporting memberships.  There'd be a few, but not more than a relative handful.  Maybe more in heavy political seasons...

Now, one comment on moderating.  Warning -- it's might be kind of lengthy.

I don't think there's a better moderated board of any sort available.  This is one of the very few that I regularly participate in.  Mods here generally bend over backwards and do some things that would make a yogi jealous to be fair.  There's not a mod here who's afraid to tell another mod that they're too wrapped up in the issue -- and there's not a mod here who won't step back if they realize they can't be objective.  You just don't see that happen often.

Most mod work here is done in a very low key manner, with nudges and hints.  When you see a mod post suggesting a way to do something or discuss something... that's often all it takes.  Most folks just need the occasional reminder that the rules do exist and are enforced, and they'll go with the problem.  Some folks demand a little more attention... as do some topics.  They get public warnings that don't single anyone out.  Most of the singling out -- that's done in private.  You (the members at large) generally won't see that happen...  A very few are suspended or banned.

And the policy here is to avoid removing CONTENT at almost any cost.  Doesn't matter if the mods agree or disagree.  Doesn't matter if yanking the offending post would reduce problems as new people find it and reply or react.  You can't get much fairer or more open than that, I don't think.  I know I've had posts removed without comment in another forum; I presume a mod there took exception.

I've also been a mod-equivalent somewhere that the volunteer team wasn't well supported by the bosses.  I've quit -- and that forum has been taken over by the trolls, who drove a lot of valuable contributors away.  (The business that ran that board isn't doing so good, either.)

In sum -- I don't think you'll find another board where the mod staff is as fair or supportive of the members rights to different views.  The only issue is how you choose to express those views.  Avoid personal attacks, avoid hate speech, and spend some time learning the copyright and profanity rules -- and that'll eliminate something like 75% of the mod team's work.  And let us focus on building the site, getting more activity, and making it a generally better time for all!


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## jarrod (Mar 26, 2009)

speaking as a fairly high posting non-supporting member...i just don't have $20 to kick around at the moment (pathetic, i know).  i'd hate to be locked out because some folks can't keep their cool.  

jf


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## BrandonLucas (Mar 26, 2009)

I agree with both Jarrod and TF on this one...

I'm pretty much broke at this point.  I post on this forum while I'm at work, during the times when it's slow.  I don't have the funds to pay to post on an internet forum...not with all of the other things I owe.

If the decision is made in that light, then, of course, I have no other option than to go along with it, but I just can't justify paying for a forum that I post on at work.

That being said, I haven't received any "formal" warnings, but I have gotten out of line once or twice...but it's never been anything so far out there that I should be banned.  I understand there are topics that can be more heated than others, but honestly, when it comes to the point of posting in a threatening way, isn't that pretty childish?

And how would it be fair for anyone else who like to post in the study who behaves (for the most part, anyway) to have to pay to post, when the problem lies with other posters?

I don't know how hard it is to moderate a forum.  I've never been involved with anything like that.  But it seems that people should be mature enough to post without getting quite *so *heated about topics.


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## harlan (Mar 26, 2009)

If only it worked like that. My limited experience moderating another forum has convinced me that consistent moderation is the key to retaining an atmosphere and 'mature' membership. Floating non-MA related, and controversial topics (The Study) is a 'make or break' aspect to a forum. Personally, I think it should be 'invite only' (no thanks...I'm not angling for one), or hidden  (like 'E-B*do'). 




BrandonLucas said:


> I don't know how hard it is to moderate a forum. I've never been involved with anything like that. But it seems that people should be mature enough to post without getting quite *so *heated about topics.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2009)

Are there currently any "members only" forums?


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## Sukerkin (Mar 26, 2009)

Yes.  I think I mentioned in an earlier post that what is being proposed is adding the Study to that 'list'.


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## Bob Hubbard (Mar 26, 2009)

Do you mean here, or elsewhere?

Here, Supporting Members have access to a couple extra forums.
On Kenpotalk the school instructors and owners have private areas.
There's also private women only areas on both sites.


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## Steve (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks guys. I guess I should look into what I paid for. I just sent you the money because I've been leeching for a while. Haven't even really considered whether there were benefits... other than the nifty badge! 

Edit:  I understood that this is what was being considered, but it just occurred to me that there might be other areas already.


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## jks9199 (Mar 26, 2009)

Here's a link to a quick, nifty list of the benefits (and costs) of being a supporting member:  Supporting Memberships.


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## Tames D (Mar 26, 2009)

stevebjj said:


> Thanks guys. I guess I should look into what I paid for. I just sent you the money because I've been leeching for a while. Haven't even really considered whether there were benefits... *other than the nifty badge! *
> 
> Edit: I understood that this is what was being considered, but it just occurred to me that there might be other areas already.


 I didn't get a badge


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## Tames D (Mar 26, 2009)

btw, I voted to leave it open to everyone.


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## Ceicei (Mar 27, 2009)

My vote:  Keep it open and moderated please.

- Ceicei


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