# Armed, unarmed but armed...



## Zero (Feb 20, 2009)

I have seen a few members mention in threads their dependence on, or placing their dependence in, an SD tool/weapon such as a torch in SD or similar scenarios/altercations.

I am not questioning the ability of an SD torch such as a Surefire in momentarily blinding or distracting an aggressor but rather, what the actual value is of using the torch itself, such as a large maglite or Surefire defence torch, in a defensive or attacking response.

Obviously depending on the state or country or situation one is in, there will be times you will be precluded from carrying a handgun or a blade and so reliance on other SD tools/weapons may come in. But I am not sure if a torch, albeit a toughened one, in either a swinging motion or thrusting, is any more, or even as, effective as a good old direct punch to the jaw or say a knife hand strike to the throat or eye/soft tissue strike. In the altercations I have been in in the past that I could not flee from or reasonably diffuse (in the past where I placed reliance more on physical ability rather than situation awareness and avoidance) I have found swift fists have got me through.

I admit having checked out concerning situations with a baseball bat or large hunting knife in the past but what I am talking about is a street/SD scenario where these or a gun are not to hand. I just don't know if the knock-down or knock-out potential of the torch is any greater than a good punch. I admit the extra length and leverage/arc it gives but then this is not as direct as a straight punch or uppercut. There is also the additional problem of having the thing wrestled from you and used as a bludgeon if you are on the ground etc if faced by multiple aggressors. 

Maybe again where, and I am not being sexist at all, merely recognising the general difference in size and strength, a female was confronted by a male, the torch may add the additional strike power or reach to be of advantage, I don't know.

We have knocked people out in both competition and on the street with fists, so why the need to tie up one good hand holding something or reaching for something that may not offer that much more power in the strike.

I personally am not knocking the SD torch but I am questioning it as an effective weapon and wonder if those with experience in this matter could put their honest and analytical views forward on this. Sure anything that can be turned to advantage in a confrontation should not be overlooked but I am not sure if all options are better than the limbs were have already been give, particularly if we have been training effectively in their martial use.
Thanks


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2009)

The Kubotan was once well-taught as a self-defense weapon that could be legally carried and which was easy to always have on you.  A small flashlight (torch) can easily serve the same purpose.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubotan

The biggest problem with the Kubotan, in my opinion, is that knockoffs are sold at flea markets, and people buy them and do not learn how to use them, so they're of no real value - sort of a 'voodoo charm' against bad guys, like the tiny can of mace or CN/CR/Capsacin buried somewhere in the bottom of a purse.

It is a worthwhile endevor, IMHO, to consider the things you carry or which are easily available to you everyday as weapons of opportunity, if you can imagine a self defense function for them and practice using them in that manner.


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## Monadnock (Feb 20, 2009)

The biggest problem with any of it is the assumption that you will have access to it in time to save your derriere...

People who are experience predators will not give you the chance.

The best defense is not to be in such a situation. Nick-nacks like these present a false sense of security. It would be laughable if the end result wasn't someone dieing.


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## Drac (Feb 20, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The Kubotan was once well-taught as a self-defense weapon that could be legally carried and which was easy to always have on you. A small flashlight (torch) can easily serve the same purpose.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kubotan


 

Master Steve Materkowski ,the Colorado State Director of the Combat Hapkido Federation does a whole presentation of using the Surfire as Kubotan..Its a good program..



Bill Mattocks said:


> The biggest problem with the Kubotan, in my opinion, is that knockoffs are sold at flea markets, and people buy them and do not learn how to use them, so they're of no real value - sort of a 'voodoo charm' against bad guys, like the tiny can of mace or CN/CR/Capsacin buried somewhere in the bottom of a purse.


 
Quite right...I carried one on my first bouncer job..Soon everbody was carrying one..They were brokenhearted when I explained that without the training it was just a little black stick that held your keys



Bill Mattocks said:


> It is a worthwhile endevor, IMHO, to consider the things you carry or which are easily available to you everyday as weapons of opportunity, if you can imagine a self defense function for them and practice using them in that manner.


 
Pick up one of these..




They are legal to carry everywhere ( so far) and I have been on the recieving end of one wielded by a small female with no real MA training...Very effective...The biggest problem is to train the folks that want to carry them to keep them in their hand as they walk to their car..It does no good in a purse or a pocket..


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## elder999 (Feb 20, 2009)

At a minimum, I'm never without a _Mont Blanc_ pen. Then, of course, there's this, which I've also carried on commercial aircraft a time or three. While I often have a flashlight handy-and they're usually Surefires or Maglights-I don't always have reason to carry one. I've almost always got a pen in my shirt pocket or inside jacket pocket, even when we go dancing..........


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2009)

When my company was doing some minor (re)construction work, there was a period where a part of the area being worked on was covered with acoustical tile from the ceiling that was about to be thrown away.  I had to approach our maintenance guy for something...I think I needed a light bulb.  My 200 pound maintenance dude, in sneakers, barely put a dent in the acoustical tile on the floor.   However, when I walked across it in heels, I made quite the popping sound, corresponding with some deep indentations in the tile.  This is an experiment anyone can reproduce on their own.

My Surefire is small with a bunch of nasty looking edges.  Its design was not to function as a club but more as a kuboton, or even dragged across the skin in a scratching motion.  Its certainly not something to make one invincible, but it can have its uses...including its uses as....you know...a light. :lol:

I typically make my commute home from the office a bit after midnight, and I would *strongly recommend *carrying a small flashlight when out at those kinds of hours.


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## KenpoTex (Feb 20, 2009)

It's not a bad idea to have a small flashlight (surefire, or even a mini-mag) handy just to have a light source available...ever been in a building when the power goes off?  ever drop your car keys in a dark parking lot?  etc...

As far as using one, my preferred method is to strike hammer-fist style.  Any small hard object (flashlight, pen, kubaton etc.) will augment the force of the strike by not only focusing the impact on a smaller surface area, but also because there is no "give" to it.


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## Bill Mattocks (Feb 20, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> As far as using one, my preferred method is to strike hammer-fist style.  Any small hard object (flashlight, pen, kubaton etc.) will augment the force of the strike by not only focusing the impact on a smaller surface area, but also because there is no "give" to it.



Men often do not consider the value of having a pain generator handy.  Yes, a yarawa will concentrate punching or hammering force when used properly.

However, it's good for a lot more than that.

Consider a woman trapped in an unwelcome embrace.  The end of a kubuton raked hard against the ribcage will generate an instant reaction, and the 'deep pain' generated works even on drunks.  Because it invokes a core reflex (rib cage being attacked), the instinctive reaction is to GET AWAY FROM IT as quickly as possible.

I've seen a person thrown **** over teakettle in a demonstration of the tip of a kuboton placed under the jaw, a hip throw, and bang, flat on his back.

I have been fortunate - many of the self-defense techniques that are taught primarily to women because they are force multipliers are also taught to LE because they are non-lethal and useful as come-alongs, take-downs, and aids in wrist-locking, etc.  I think a lot of big, strong, men would do well to learn a few of the 'gentle arts' because in a fight between two big, macho, men, the last thing the assailant is going to expect is a kubuton to the eyeball, or inserted in a pain center under the arm.

A punch, a kick, a throw, and a lock are all great.  But deep, deep, pain is also a fight-ender when two fighters are clinched, and it doesn't even have to do serious damage or take any real strength or dexterity to apply the technique.  Only training.


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## Zero (Feb 20, 2009)

These posts and responses are all very helpful and thanks for your time.  I did use to walk to my car, and in confined spaces when this was unavoidable, with my keys in my fist for an eyeball strike or rip etc.  But I have since moved away from this kind of thing and fallen back on reliance on bare - and ready - hands, whenever moving in quesitonable surroundings (actually always full stop).

But this has given me plenty to think over as while I have trained in the traditional martial weapons of my styles, tonfa, bo, katana and nunchuku, and also knife attack and knife/gun defense (to a lesser degree) I have not participated in a club or training orientated on utilisation of SD tools such as those suggested.

Much obliged.


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## jks9199 (Feb 20, 2009)

Under stress, fine motor control diminishes dramatically.  While this effect is able to be reduced and controlled through appropriate training -- it doesn't go away.  It's part of the effects of the hormonal cocktail your body uses to prep for a fight for your life.  That punch that worked great in the ring or sparring in class may not work nearly as well when you try to use it for real.  And your attacker is probably enjoying some of the benefits of the hormonal stew, too, meaning he's not likely to feel some things nearly as much.

That's where things like the Kubotan/fist stick/yawara stick, self defense keys, and the like come into play.  They concentrate your effort in the smallest area, and they stand a better chance of bypassing those hormonal blocks/filters.  They're not magic fight enders -- but they are force multipliers. I've seen people who were ignoring empty hand blows jump to get away from the simple direct pressure exerted through a closed expandable baton driven into their arm.  It's not magic -- it's just a force multiplier.

And it's NOT a substitute for real training and preparation, any more than the best SEAL platoon or Special Forces A-Team is a substitute for the line infantry grunt.


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## Brian R. VanCise (Feb 20, 2009)

Zero, tools and force multipliers will in general give you and advantage in a self defense situation.  The trick is to be *the one* with more advantages on your side.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 20, 2009)

Zero said:


> IWe have knocked people out in both competition and on the street with fists, so why the need to tie up one good hand holding something or reaching for something that may not offer that much more power in the strike.


 
Zero,

Flashlights, like the E2D, can be used to strike with. In fact it's the same as putting a metal bar in the palm of your hand and making a fist. It makes the fist much stronger. Plus the ends of the E2D can rip a face open, tear the nose off, slash a hand open, and, of course, blind the attacker.

Even if the torch does not have serriated ends, it still helps the hand strike harder. Plus if its a 'C' cell flash light, it becomes a very good club that can strike or block.

Deaf


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## Carol (Feb 20, 2009)

Referring to the edges of the E2D, Surefire calls it the "broken bottle effect" 

Plus it can be taken places knives can't go....such as on an airplane


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## KenpoTex (Feb 21, 2009)

personally, I'm not a huge fan of the crenelated bezel (the teeth).  I carry an E2D it's because I like the size, orientation of the pocket clip, and recessed tailcap-switch...not the teeth.  I'd just as soon _not_ have them bleeding all over the place and looking like they got mauled by a chainsaw.


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## Brian King (Feb 21, 2009)

*Zero wrote:*


> I am not questioning the ability of an SD torch such as a Surefire in momentarily blinding or distracting an aggressor but rather, what the actual value is of using the torch itself, such as a large maglite or Surefire defence torch, in a defensive or attacking response.


 
Until you have been the target of a well trained professional or a team trained in the use low light tactics it is very easy to underestimate the value and use of these tactical lights not only as kubatons or striking aids but for the use that they were designed for. You mentioned momentary blindness and distraction but that is only the tip of the iceberg. You can mess with peoples distance perception like you wouldnt believe, using flicker you can mess with their thinking and reactionary abilities, using light discipline and tactics you can pull attention to a direction or area of your choosing and so much more. The training (using the light as a light not just a kubaton) is difficult for civilians to find but if you ever get a chance it is well worth the effort. 

Regarding the lights with the 'teeth' I do not like them; to tough on clothing and not really needed as a kubaton in my opinion.

Regards
Brian King


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 21, 2009)

KenpoTex said:


> personally, I'm not a huge fan of the crenelated bezel (the teeth). I carry an E2D it's because I like the size, orientation of the pocket clip, and recessed tailcap-switch...not the teeth. I'd just as soon _not_ have them bleeding all over the place and looking like they got mauled by a chainsaw.


 
Matt,

Just think of it as a DNA collector! Evidence for the DA to use!

Deaf


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## KenpoTex (Feb 21, 2009)

Deaf Smith said:


> Matt,
> 
> Just think of it as a DNA collector! Evidence for the DA to use!
> 
> Deaf



when they pick him up off the ground, they'll have all the DNA they could wish for. :ultracool


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## Balrog (Feb 22, 2009)

Bill Mattocks said:


> The Kubotan was once well-taught as a self-defense weapon that could be legally carried and which was easy to always have on you.  A small flashlight (torch) can easily serve the same purpose.


And does.  Airport screeners will take Kubotans away from you.  I've had my keys on a small flashlight for years and never had it challenged.


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## Deaf Smith (Feb 22, 2009)

Balrog said:


> And does. Airport screeners will take Kubotans away from you. I've had my keys on a small flashlight for years and never had it challenged.


 
Happly the TSA guy at the airport said my E2D was OK to take aboard.

Deaf


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